# Manitou Mattoc



## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Who's gett'n one, got one and who's ridden one? Whats your thoughts?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Want one, but I don't think you'll find anybody whose ridden one yet, as it will be the end of this month (at least) before they are available. The only review/preview I've seen so far is from a German MTB site.
Looks like a really good fork and some of the guys here who absolutely love their Manitou forks have basically convinced me to give them a go.
The biggest issue was with Manitou revealing it so long ago and then.... nothing for at least 4 months. Kind of a weird way to do business, given the fact that the opposition (RS with the Pike, X-Fusion etc) have been going great guns in the intervening period.


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## reformed roadie (Mar 30, 2008)

Do you have any idea how long it took the X-fusion Sweep to actually become available?
I am curious too…the Mattoc and Sweep both look nice. Pike prices aren't dropping any time soon.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

That's the other thing that is very tempting about the Mattoc, even the top Pro model is priced very competitively to the Pike. The only issue I think we'll have in NZ though is that I got my LBS to ring the local distributors of Manitou to see exactly how much they would cost, only to be told "we are going out of Manitou". Means I will have to likely go through CRC to get one.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

I figured it was a little early for any type of feedback, it'll come soon enough.

I run Avalanche products both ends and can't see any reason to move anywhere else, except in the Manitou direction. The only thing that might hold me back is the fact of Avy's mid valve. That type of setup is amazing for preventing brake dive. I've had a crack at riding a 29er setup with a current Pike and a Wilson setup with last years 888. Now taking into consideration that I think both forks could have been better tuned and the lack of time I had on both bikes, I still felt uncomfortable when time came to drop the anchor's. Especially on the 29er, I felt like I was going to endo that thing. It felt like the brake dive was using up half of the available travel. I just shook my head. 

Which begs the question, which part of TPC+ four dimensional damper would help with brake dive? I think it either boils down to the pressure or velocity dependent circuits. I'd love to learn more. 

I see on Manitou's site they now are calling for a spring time release. I thought their time frame from when they released to their original December goal seemed pretty normal. And even late March seems okay.


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## Hangtime (Jan 25, 2006)

The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing

http://www.pricepoint.com/Brand/Manitou/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-160mm-Tapered-QR15-27-5-Fork-2014.axd


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Hangtime said:


> The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm Tapered QR15 27.5 Fork 2014 | Manitou | Brand | www.PricePoint.com


No it's not. If you go to the checkout it says "backordered". Same with every other online retailer. It is not available yet.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Sigh.....

Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike. 

So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

got a link to that german review?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Der erste Eindruck zählt: Manitou Mattoc Pro im Kurzfahrbericht

There you go.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Sigh.....
> 
> Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike.
> 
> So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!


I mind cant let go of time the Dorardo, Revox and I had together. Happy day's which had never been quite the same..


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here

It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.

Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

I have one since yesterday 
well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Kiwiplague said:


> Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here
> 
> It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.
> 
> Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.


Looking good! I can't wait to hear the ride reports. I love my Nixon but would love to switch to a Mattoc!


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

bansaiman said:


> I have one since yesterday
> well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it!


You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.

Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty  I'm hoping that they will be worth it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> I have one since yesterday
> well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it!


Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!


Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:

Der erste Eindruck zählt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?

From the above link.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Flip D said:


> Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?
> 
> From the above link.
> View attachment 872661


Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.

Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:
> 
> Der erste Eindruck zählt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de


It looks a lot more stout in that pic than the advertisement pic's I've seen. I'm looking forward to your thought's and pic's as well. The pressure's on mate!


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

bigcrs said:


> Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.
> 
> Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?


Yeah, they're really good but they'll give me the book answer. I was hoping someone a lot smarter than me can look at it and say Yes. I had a bunch of questions about shim stacks on my tower pro and I ended up having an email exchange with one of their engineers who sorted me out. I thought that was pretty nice.

It's going on a Bantam and only want 130mm in the front. At 220 pounds, not interested in 32mm forks anymore.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

I wonder if we can get hold of more detailed drawing's... It would probably answer some questions if we could get some accurate measurements on both 26er and 27.5er spring assemblies. 

Mullen if your lurk'n around, chime in mate....


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Kiwiplague said:


> You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.
> 
> Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty  I'm hoping that they will be worth it.


 I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.

I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend 
Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR

The distributors were very prompt in returning emails and had a rebound knob in stock[ plastic rubbish unfortunately] As you can expect better service than Fox, But i never ever recieved a response back from rock shox so that kind of sets the stage in NZ.

I'm using one on my WR 26" set at 150mm even though it will take 650B. Huge improvement over a Rlti rev. It's 1/2 the price of my 2013 F160 and only marginally down in performance. Very very good fork. Bit hefty though if your running it as a 150mm fork.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Wow, didn't realise Bicycle had them so cheap. I'd looked at Marz before, but the costs were all well over $1300, even for the 55CR. Could be worth considering if the Mattoc isn't going to have any support, as like you say, if something breaks, I could have a very expensive (although very pretty) paperweight.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:
> 
> Der erste Eindruck zählt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de


Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:

"Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"

What word in german gets converted to horny!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:
> 
> "Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"
> 
> What word in german gets converted to horny!


Geil= Horny: in a sexually sense and if you just find something very good alternatively to "cool" the mattoc works hammer, fantastic or geil ;-) or has geile Leistung= good performance


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## flml99 (Feb 14, 2007)

I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> I have one since yesterday
> well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it!


Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

Excited about this fork so much I pre-ordered with a shop.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.


Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)

Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
> The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
> To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de


Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!


use the google translator.I tried to keep the german simple, so that it will hopefully be translated into something that can be understood ;-)


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for the review. Looks like a real player. Along with Marz new offerings, plenty of choice besides Fox or RS for 2014.


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## greenblur (May 7, 2011)

gvs_nz said:


> I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.
> 
> I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend
> Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR
> ...


I REALLY wanted a Mattoc but couldn't wait and wasn't crazy about dropping $850. Ended up getting a 2013 Marzocchi CR on closeout. What a beastly fork. Fairly simple compared to others but well executed. And Marz will take your calls and answer all your dumb questions.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Its horny don't you know! 

Actually, I used the google translator and it worked OK. Seems like the fork is stiff as a Magura, which is a good thing. It also seems that the fork is plush with a soft feel to it. Horny good!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

92SE-R said:


> Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?


You can summ it up, that it works like a mini Dh Fork. Really eats up large obstacles with good control. Better than the LYrik DH of one of the other users. He says in rock gardens the mattoc is much superior to the Mico DH. I was reminded of my 2012 DEville, which works like a mini DH Fork. The mattoc only needs a break-in time, to become more sensitive. BUt although it has a good management of it´s travel and uses it when needed, it won´t bottom out. The HBO really works great and the supportive feel the fork gives you is really good, when moving on the front wheel or coming over a large rock and flying directly into the next, what could throw you off with another fork which tends to dive. In this respect I like it even more than the Deville, because with my weight of 92 Kilos even with almost closed HSC I was regularly able to bottom the french girl out.
Every knob really actually brings a noticeable change in contrast to fox or rs. Not as much as my vengeance HLR (which is the Double barrel under the forks refferrign to the range), but you can feel it and it is that much you can sufficiently tune the fork to your riding style and track.
It brings really good traction on the small chatter but still you can use jumps properly. The fork won´t swallow every small jump, so that you still can play with the terrain.
The weight is claimed to be around 1877 GRams. We had 3 specimen with weights of 1868, 1906 and 1908 grams. So real world weight is only varying about 30 grams to the claimed one; sometimes even a few grams lighter. I´d say, this is good.
The Mattoc is only at 55% of the DEvilles price (1139 € Deville 170mm vs 616 € for the mAttoc Pro-> best price which I could find at german inet shops), is lighter, stiffer (stiff as Pike what I was told from a Enduro Racer who prefers the Mattoc on his race bike), the axle is great (can remove or put it in in <4 sec), you can change travel, you can convert between 26-27.5, service everything and tune on your own, parts are available and Manitou offers reliable communication for questions and warranty issues. If you were looking for a new fork I would definetly recommend this one. I haven´t ridden a Pike and can´t compare it. But even if was "only" the same level as the Pike, I´d take the Mattoc because of all the options. And as I was not let done by the great Manitou when compared to BOS and the Vengeance HLR I´d say the Mattoc passes the test.
Love it..... it´s geil-> horny  ...ergggh awesome!


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Thanks! Man cant wait. My distributors dont have them in stock yet.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.

Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

bigcrs said:


> Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.
> 
> Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!


let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)


Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.

FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.

Another question, what shock was used during the test?


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

bigcrs said:


> Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.
> 
> FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.
> 
> Another question, what shock was used during the test?


a Evolver ISX 6 tuned for my bike.actually there is a vector Air waiting to be tested,but I still miss the rest of the hardware to fit it :-/


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Kiwiplague said:


> Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.


CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

aerius said:


> CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!


So why is the 160mm version the only one available right now? Granted you can take it apart and adjust it but if I'm spending that kind of money I really don't want to have to take the thing apart the minute I get it. If I wanted to do that I would buy Fox.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

I believe that's how they come.


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

For the record, the Mattoc is finally available, is only available aftermarket in the 160mm version (at least for 27.5), does come with a set of travel spacers to take it down to 150mm, and has not exactly the best decal application in the world.

And don't ask me for a ride report. We are at least a good month away from our trails being rideable. Stupid winter won't die. :madmax:


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

I think Chain Reaction have had 26" and 650B 160 in stock for a couple of weeks .


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

still listed as backordered on price point though.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?

I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.

Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Warp said:


> Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?
> 
> I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.
> 
> Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.


You are right, the Expert is only a little heavier, but has the same features.

The Comp uses the Mars Air spring (coil and air in series), a simpler ABS+ damper, fixed hydraulic bottom-out, and less machining for more weight. It is basically a longer travel stiffer Minute.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

Have any forks shown up in the states? Still look unavailable here.


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

D_K said:


> Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free.


I want to give my LBS a chance.


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

flml99 said:


> I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?


Nope. Not possible.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference 

I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

goRz said:


> Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference
> 
> I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers


I would actually prefer the Expert over the Pro. The added oil volume from the in leg damper will do a better job staying cool compared to the cartridge version.


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

The Pike's can be had cheaper but you have to keep an eye out. I think once the supply chain gets filled up, the Mattoc is going to be the better bang for the buck though. I just like all of the good ol' metal parts in it (i.e. no exploding Charger Damper). But from my parking lot ride on the one I just bought, it's definitely a fork that will need a little breaking in before it shines. The adjustments all make a very definite affect on the fork's behavior though which should make dialing it in a lot easier.

The only odd thing I have found so far is that the lowers aren't the same diameter all the way down. They have a couple of bulges in them. I wonder if that is on purpose or if I got a "special" one. :skep:


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

goRz said:


> Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?


There is not full service guide yet but there are some set-up and travel modification manuals:

Support | Manitou

Checking oil-bath levels are never a bad thing, as long as you know what you are doing.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory. 
Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.

I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.

I do not know if the 26in version comes with those spacers in the box, etc.

Therefor, I am ordering the 27.5in version, de-lower spacering it, and running it on my 26in bike.


Who in this thread ACTUALLY HAS the fork in hand, and what are you impressions?


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Hopefully i will have mine tomorrow so I will be back with some impressions on Monday


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

Where did you order from goRz?


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

I'm from Poland so I think it's of no use to you, but: Mattoc EXPERT Manitou | Widelce, Cz??ci | Velo


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

goRz said:


> Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
> I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory.
> Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?


Did it come with a manual? I would call Manitou to get the amount needed for the bath oil. Yes, the oil used for the damper is separate.


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

Why is Chain Reaction Cycles so expensive for this part? I feel like they usually have great deals, just not today.


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

I have the Pro version mounted up to my Bronson. It comes with no useful documentation and 2 travel spacers to take it down to 150mm and 140mm. Check out their instructions on doing the travel adjustment for how to take the fork apart and how much oil it needs. It does require some special tools or the modification of some tools.

I haven't been able to do much more than ride mine around around my driveway right now. We will be lucky if our trails are open by the end of this month. 

*EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

D_K said:


> *EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.


Bike Radar's "reviews" are usually next to useless the majority of the time. Minimal testing done on what's being reviewed, ratings that don't match the reviews..... so, all in all, pretty much not the most reliable site for basing your next purchase on.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands. 
Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks. 
(I can see into the future on this one)


y0bailey said:


> Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.
> 
> I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.
> 
> ...


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

material guy said:


> If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
> Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
> 26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
> Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
> (I can see into the future on this one)


How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.

I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

From Manitou support directly:

_Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.

One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of._


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

y0bailey said:


> From Manitou support directly:
> 
> _Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.
> 
> One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of._


Now, in my mind I cannot see 3mm of offset difference really mattering as far as my overall geometry goes. Anyone have any thoughts there?


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.


y0bailey said:


> How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.
> 
> I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

material guy said:


> I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
> I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
> I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.


Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

aerius said:


> I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.


So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.

I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

In post #62 you mentioned only removing the lower spacer, not replacing the entire plunger. 
Replacing the plunger changes the entire game.

Thanks for the update though.


y0bailey said:


> Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.


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## D_K (Dec 28, 2010)

gvs_nz said:


> So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????


LOL, I swear that every fork on the market gets the same two reviews:

Reviewer 1
-Opinion A - The fork is a pig.
-Opinion B - The fork is uber stiff.
-Opinion C - The fork's settings don't do crap.
-Opinion D - The fork's tuning is good.

Reviewer 2
-Opinion A - The fork is really light.
-Opinion B - The fork is a noodle.
-Opinion C - The fork's settings work well.
-Opinion D - The fork's tuning sucks.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gvs_nz said:


> So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
> Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.
> 
> I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.


I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

So I've installed my Mattoc Expert and went on first ride today. Locally we have hills rather than mountains and no real rocks. 
Anyway, My current summary is: fork is stiff, doesn't dive. Ride is stable and inspires confidence. It's not super plush but I might be running too much air and I Don't mind.
BUT the only knob that made real difference is rebound knob 

I also have problem with Scale in Manitou materials. E.g. According to set up guide Slow compression can be set from 0 to 4, where weirdly 0 means max compression!. However on the dial, there is normal + and - sign. Now, does + refer to amount of damping or to numbers from set up guide?? In later case +would actually mean less damping. 
I'm confused. Anybody knows how this works?


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork. What the tuning guide does is count clicks from the fully closed position, in other words, spin the dial to the + side as far as it goes, then back it off the number of clicks that's recommended in the guide. 

For example, to do the Flow Trail tune on your Expert, spin all dials to the + side all the way, then back off rebound by 1-3 clicks, high speed compression by 1-2 clicks, low speed compression by 0-2 clicks, and HBO gets backed out all the way and added in as needed.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Thanks, although this would do just fine


aerius said:


> The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork.


Anyway I assumed it's like that, so I still kinda think that compression knobs dont make much difference...


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

Looks like pinkbike is going to have a review soon. Check out their Facebook page.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.


I admire your Brand loyalty.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Vespasianus said:


> The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.


Fore aft rigidity?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Fore aft rigidity?


Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.

Unfortunately I haven't ridden a F36 on the same trail as a Nixon to compare directly.


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## Turbocharged (Mar 1, 2007)

Anyone hear anything yet about an actual US release date?


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gvs_nz said:


> I admire your Brand loyalty.


What brand loyalty?


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## Turbocharged (Mar 1, 2007)

goRz said:


> I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US


Me too. I'm hoping that they are timing it with this weekends Sea Otter Classic...fingers crossed.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

material guy said:


> If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
> Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
> 26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
> Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
> (I can see into the future on this one)


this is not completely correct!
The mattoc is made to be converted between travel and wheel sizes!But you need to change the part only the rebound assembly where the hbo is put on..
It is a part which was to Come with every mattoc but it only will when they finally catch Up with the orders.if it was Not added to your package,write manitou tech support and you will get it as soon as available.then you can convert it to the other size ;-))


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

You've replaced the new Pike with it?!


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Caol said:


> Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new


What's your opinion on compression knobs effect?


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Only had one real ride so far. LS is affective and noticable, but much more suble comparee to fox or RS. HS not sure about yet. Running 2 clicks from open. HBO has dramatic effect


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

So is it plusher than pike?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Caol said:


> Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.


I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.

But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Dougal said:


> Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.


No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.


You can hold 32mm tubes with a beefy crown and 36mm tubes with a flexy one.
Tube size alone means very little.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.
> 
> But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
> I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.


I mentioned volume reducers speculatively, out of curiosity after using them with the pike. Used In the pike they provided a better dynamic ride and support but affected small bump performance. I think the Mattoc air leg provides better performance overall.

More mid valving would be a better solution in both forks.

I am a light rider, like to ride pretty hard and coming from a dh background I am looking for dh like performance from my forks. I understand the limitations of travel and chassis with these forks.

With regards plushness I don't think there is much difference between the pike and mattoc.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

LyNx said:


> Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?


When I was talking to one of the guys from Hayes he said they wanted to start with the "Enduro" market in Europe where they think they have the best chance at competing with the Pike. He also mentioned that a 29er version could be made but they started with the 26/650b fork as they are actually the same. 650B version has a 10mm spacer in it so the tire doesn't hit the crown.

They know the demand is there for a 29er version, Hayes just seems to be confused at how to market it's products in a constantly changing world of suspension as they are always behind IMO.

If Hayes made a 29er Mattoc they would want to make a 140mm-160mm fork so not to directly compete with the Minute but the demand is for something as low as 100mm and definitely a 120mm Mattoc would sell too. I would buy one.

Performace wise, people I have talked to said it's easily as good as stiff as the Pike and has a better damper. The fork is very tunable too. I saw one with 100mm of travel on a park bike. No real modifications except 60mm of travel spacers and damper tuning for the dramatically lower travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LyNx said:


> Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?


Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?

I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.

To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.



Dougal said:


> Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?
> 
> I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LyNx said:


> Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.
> 
> To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.


140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.

The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Tube size alone means very little.


Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!

I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gvs_nz said:


> Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!
> 
> I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
> From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.


Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.

Ze Germans weren't testing stanchion size in isolation. They were testing complete forks which happened to use different size stanchions. Lots and lots of other variables.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make :???: Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.


Dougal said:


> 140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.
> 
> The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.
> 
> .


Exactly and the steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.

Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?

There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the 1 1/8 single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel 1 1/8 single crown is fine.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gvs_nz said:


> Exactly so how can you justify your intial statement when a steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.The moments are not to disimilar considering the main load is at the axle. There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel single crown is fine.


I'm not following you here.
The only forks which support the steerer at two points are dual crown and we're not discussing those. All single crown forks place a large bending moment load at the crown.

It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.



gvs_nz said:


> Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?


But they offer no insight as to which features are responsible for the result.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LyNx said:


> Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make :???: Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.


My main point is for the same total height would you take a 140mm or less 29" bike, a 200+mm 26" bike or a 180mm 27" bike?

The number of people who'd take the 140mm 29" are a niche rather than a majority so can't expect a wide component selection.


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

LyNx said:


> Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?


Hayes have been very conservative with new models for Manitou, don't forget that too many models, too much new stuff and not enough focus on quality is what sunk Manitou eight years ago and led to Hayes picking up the pieces. I'm sure a 29er Mattoc will come.

Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fix the Spade said:


> Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.


How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?

Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I'm not following you here.
> It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.
> .


And Black is white.
Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?
Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gvs_nz said:


> And Black is white.
> Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?


I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.

Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
For specific results You'll have to define:
The steerer ID and OD.
The crown cross section shape and dimensions.
The stanchion ID and OD.
Stanchion seperation.
The fork length (crown to ground or crown to axle and wheel OD).
The braking load.
Materials for all of the above so we can obtain stiffness values.



gvs_nz said:


> Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?


Why do you assume the majority of the deflection is where the crown meets two stanchion tubes when one steerer tube is taking the same bending load?

Why not go back to 30mm? Simple. Marketing.
The public believe bigger is better and that bigger stanchions make for a stiffer fork. Just read Jm (aka Jayem)'s posts for examples of how rigourously people will defend marketing claims over engineering principles.

I have a dual crown 30mm fork here and it's stiffer than damn near everything today. But DC trail forks didn't sell well because the public think it reduces turning radius. Yet I never hit the steering stops on any trail or switchback. I only stopped riding that fork because I needed a 20mm axle, the disc brakes kept pushing the QR axle around in the dropouts.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.


*sigh*

Go back and read what I actually wrote. It is not what you think I wrote.


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

Take this war to the PM... because you are both crapping up this thread.


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

Dougal said:


> How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?
> 
> Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.


Much bigger than it was three years ago (when it was Lenz, Lenz and Lenz) and steadily growing. At the Mega last year there were a whole bunch of people on 29ers. It's been the same at other mass start/Enduro races here in Europe too, the number of people on 29ers has gone from none to quite a lot in a couple of years.

Regards bar and frame height, a 160mm Pike 29 is 571mm axle-crown, a 200mm Boxxer is 568mm, so pretty tall. But, a lot of people ride around on a bike with an inch of spacers, 20mm (1inch) rise bars and often an angled stem too. Flat bars, flat (or negative rise) stem and a 5mm spacer and you've shaved 40mm off the bar height, which isn't far off where a lot of people are right now with 160mm 26ers (but still taller).

The bar height issue isn't _that_ big of a deal and the average male height in Europe is something like 5ft 9, there are more than enough tall riders who do or will want this kind of bike in the near future. For short people 650b is the new big thing, but that doesn't preclude tall people from getting something else.

Also, Fox, BOS, MRP and (rumoured) DVO are all making long travel 29er forks for the near future, they must think there's a market there too.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?



jdcatnau said:


> You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else


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## y0bailey (Dec 19, 2006)

LyNx said:


> Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?


I think things have long deviated away from "why isn't the Mattoc coming in 29" to some completely irrelevant discussion that is diluting out any good information about this fork, it's performance, etc.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Jayem said:


> His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.


A 36mm Fox Float is not miles away from a Nixon. And yes, for me, a 4.8 lb 32mm Nixon with 20mm axles, feels as stiff as a 4.3 lb, 36 mm Fox Float. From a suspension point of view, one is much better than the other.

This is the same crap you keep spilling about the dw link being miles ahead of everything else...


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

No talk of bushings yet WTF... Look at the length of the bushings inside that dual crown

Boxxer
View attachment 886103


single crown Lyrik vv
View attachment 886105


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
> The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.
> 
> Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
> ...


At this point the Manitou Design team are cringing under their desks as the Manitou fan club runs out of control.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.

I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ktm520 said:


> Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.
> 
> I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.


Once again, yes, but that wasn't the point.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Elvis is dead along with the R7. 

Time to move on. There's too many variables and no one has proved anything, Just ruined mantou's PR and chance to move on with a new significant fork range instead of recycling old technology.

I look forward to riding one with their unecessarily large diameter fashionable staunchions

Perhaps the Manitou fan club you could ask for a special 30mm retro edition with Mars air or even elastomers.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> 25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...


Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.


No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

GTR-33 said:


> No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.


Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

Trajan said:


> Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.


Really? As one of the only people in the thread to post specifically about the Manitou Mattoc and having one in flesh I find that extremely hard to believe..

Oh wait... Is this thread about the stanchion diameters of forks from a decade or more ago? Perhaps we need a another self appointed expert to opine about the fore/aft stiffness of the Mattoc. I'm an engineer; I know things.


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## Relayden (Jun 15, 2005)

Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

So the guy posting rubbish isn't a troll, but those who correct him are!

Awesome.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Relayden said:


> Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??


Right, so back to the Mattoc...

I've had a gd amount of time on them now.

Things to report.

Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.

Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.

Grip is really gd and consistant on natural, rooty, loam trails, struggling a bit with hardpack setup for grip. Could be more a tyre and casing thing tho. Chassis stiffness etc- no complaints so far. Stiction, plushness of the top is gd and active through the stroke.

I would say the damping feels better on the mattocs than pike.

The only characteristics I haven't been able to tune in is LS support in the corners and brake dive. This is a major factor, so hopefully I can make it work or able to get it tuned by someone in the UK.

Adding one more click of LS makes the ride a lot harsher and does not effect more of the support I want. It does increase the platform subtly lessoning bobbing while pedalling up hill (sat down) but is lost with more weight on the front wheel.

the axle for me works great once you figure it out. Decals are not really to my liking, so I took most off. Fork looks gd now.

Right, off for a birthday ride. I may try less air pressure, more damping and see how that works...


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

@Caol
The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

imbecile said:


> @Caol
> The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
> Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.
> 
> ...


Actually, the abs+ shim stack is preloaded and mc2 is not. From what I remember, the HSC is adjusted by a spring putting pressure on the stack. The adjustment controls how much pressure the spring has on it. There is no threshold, the stack will flow oil in most situations, that's why it doesn't lock out. Lastly,mid stroke support will come mostly from the spring, not the damper.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience 
Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

imbecile said:


> I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience
> Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.


HSC and LSC affect each other. When s shim stack is not preloaded, it will flow oil at times. (You can look at the linear abs+ shim stacks in the abs+ tuning guide to see what a non preloaded stack looks like) When the HSC gets stiffer, it forces more oil through the LSC port st low shaft speeds. This makes the LSC adjuster feel like it has a larger range, and would increase pedal efficiency.

As for the spring, putting pressure on the stack with a spring is equivalent to adding shims to stack. The more pressure the spring puts on the stack, the more oil pressure is needed to flex the shims. Most shimmed dampers with HSC adjustments use this design to give you an adjustment range, including most rear shocks.

Hope that helps


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Thanks, got it!
BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bent for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

imbecile said:


> Thanks, got it!
> BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bended for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+


I talked to a manitou rep and he made it sound like it was not preloaded. It may have the option for the end user or have a trail stack with slight preload though. The tech made it sound like a linear stack though.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

So pretty much first-hand info  
Thanks!


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

This is great stuff guys. Thanks. I have good working knowledge of Rock Shox and Marzocchi products but never owned any Manitou.

Been riding today and pushing the pace somewhat. Fork is really starting to impress me. Refined my set up some what. Went to ~67psi, speed up my rebound a click and reduced the hbo one click. 

I will try bit more HS later just to experiment. 

So, to clarify what are the tuning options for the mc2 damper?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

imbecile said:


> @Caol
> The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
> Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much exactly how the Dorado damper works (with the additional complication of two compression pistons in TPC+). It uses a coil spring to preload the fixed compression stack for high speed adjustment. But I don't see a coil spring in the diagrams shown so far.
Unfortunately I'll have to buy another bike with tapered head-tube to test one of these.

I do agree on increasing the high speed compression damping to offer more midstroke support and easing up on the air pressure. The LSC can only help until the shims start to open.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Ok, now that I am on my computer and not my phone, I can write a little more to elaborate on the my previous posts.

When I talked to the Manitou rep, he did not tell that the shim stack is not preloaded. Instead, he insinuated it in various ways when talking about the performance of the damper. Looking at the tech drawing, (assuming it is accurate), it appears to have a speed shim installed to make the stack have a very slight preload giving it what Manitou calls a "trail tune". This would mean the end user could remove the speed shim and get a full lock out "XC" tune by fully preloading the stack, or remove all preload off the shim stack by reducing the shim diameter, giving a linear tune. Hopefully this the drawing are correct and this is true, because it offers the most tuning options for the end user.

I never talked to the Manitou rep about the HSC adjustment, 90% of forks(and rear shocks) with a HSC shim stack and HSC adjustment use a spring to add extra pressure on the stack. I assumed Manitou would follow suite as its the standard in these situations. Looking at the tech drawings closer, no obvious signs of how the HSC adjustment works is apparent. The one document says "directly adds preload to the stack", but in all honesty, I dont see how the design would accomplish this. Hopefully as more mattocs appear, some people will pull them apart and give us better insight as to how this happens. (and what shim stack comes stock, and what the piston looks like.)

Hopefully we get someone to take apart the damper and post some detailed pics. It now has my curiosity peaked even more then before.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models 
I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more  I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

imbecile said:


> My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models
> I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more  I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless


As a Mattoc owner I am keen to know what's going on inside and make sure at the very least things are lubed up nicely. To drop the lowers a very thin wall 8mm socket is needed (not available from M yet) for the air leg. Alternatively you can use a 4mm hex on the inside of the air valve while depressed. I'm slightly hesitant to do this as obviously its going to be hard to mate the shaft and lowers when re-assembling.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

In this german thread there's a lot of info and on one of the last pages you can see a 650b Mattoc converted to 170mm - by removing the "DO NOT REMOVE" 10mm spacer at the bottom of the air spring shaft  Obviously certain tires provide enough clearance with the crown at bottom out.... Point is those guys have managed to disassemble and re-assemble the lowers and the air spring, so it seems feasible without Manitou's special tools. After some modification of ordinary tools probably...
Still, that won't get you anywhere near the damper side, so that remains unaccessible, for now.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

The Germans have been busy...

The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.

Yes it seem people have managed to drop the lowers without trouble. I guess I'll give it a go tomorrow or Friday.


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

Caol said:


> The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.


As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

savo said:


> As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).


Ah, yes you are right. I see


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

Caol said:


> Ah, yes you are right. I see


I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The only problem with running a 650b at 170 is you need to use the 26'' bikes bottoming cone. since the 650b version doesnt compress as far at full travel, they made the bottoming cone 10mm longer so it still works correctly. If you try running the stock 650b version with 170mm of travel, it will damage the damper if you bottom out the fork.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

savo said:


> I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?


Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.

In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

Caol said:


> Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.
> 
> In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.


Thanx!


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Caol said:


> Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.


For sure! Enjoy the fork and give us more feedback on the performance and how the adjustments affect the ride :thumbsup:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Deerhill said:


> So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?


So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.









Bottoming cone is what is attached to the both dampers in the picture. when nearing full compression, the male side of the cone starts to enter the female side forcing oil out of the little holes on the male side. closer to full travel you get, the less holes for the oil to flow out. The external adjustment puts tension on a small spring that closes a blow off.

The 650 problem is because the fork is only designed to reach a max travel of 160. If it compresses more then 160, the compression and rebound dampers would collide. If the end user was to take the shorter cones from a 170mm 26'' fork and install them on a 650b version, the travel limiting spacer could be removed and give a 170mm 650b fork. You would have to check there are no frame clearance issues at 170mm as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.
> 
> View attachment 887870
> 
> ...


The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
There are two normal ways to acheive that.
1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.

If it's the first, then the damper is the same and travel is only restricted to keep the height down and you'd normally see a top-out spacer or shorter compression rods.
If it's the second then removing the bottom-out spacer could produce issues with crown/tyre clearance at bottomout.

Given a 27" rim is exactly 1" bigger than a 26" rim (559mm vs 584mm) the 27" fork with the same tyre and travel will already be running ~3mm less crown/tyre clearance at full compression.

Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
> There are two normal ways to acheive that.
> 1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
> 2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.
> ...


The bottoming cones being different is what I read somewhere else, I was looking for where I saw it, but couldnt find it. Once some of these hit the field, Im sure we can confirm that they are different. Or if someone wants to try it, contact Manitou and ask, they are willing to give more tech info then any other manufacture I have worked with.

[email protected] for anyone interested in this, or any other tech info.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.


And remember that tires bulge upwards a bit during a full compression impact situation. Maybe a matter of 2-3mm max, but the possibility is still there.

Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*cool pics*



mullen119 said:


> So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.
> 
> View attachment 887870


Haven't used an hydraulic bottom out that blows off before.. or one that's in an air fork.. sounds like it could be better than having to drill out a couple holes, long as it's strong enough and rebound is not too slow.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Warp said:


> Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.


I am currently riding one of those 2005 nixons and I removed the extra bumpers they put in under recall. But I am very careful with tyres I run and measuring clearance. No rub marks on the Crown yet, biggest tyre I've run is 2.35.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Caol said:


> Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.
> 
> Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.
> ...


very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end. 

Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results. 

I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

goRz said:


> very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....


Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Caol said:


> Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork


More likely difference in shock pumps...


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Caol said:


> Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end.
> 
> Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results.
> 
> I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?


So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

imbecile said:


> So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
> In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?


I used one from the workshop in my work, I believe it is just normal park tools cassette tool. It has a good sized hole in the middle. all you need to do is remove the spacer from the air piston and it will fit over the assembly.

Yip, sure you could use some more oil or some grease. Spacers would be ideal.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> More likely difference in shock pumps...


most likely indeed.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Anybody ever buy anything from these guys:

Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014

They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Anybody every buy anything from these guys:
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014
> 
> They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?


Well you cant pick what wheel size or color you are getting, so that alone makes me think its too good to be true.....


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

And they are based in Indonesia, which as I recall is quite the hotbed for dodgy non-existent online bike stores. Also, google maps shows what looks like a bus station at the address supplied on their website....


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

@all the Mattoc owners:
In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

imbecile said:


> @all the Mattoc owners:
> In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter?


That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

savo said:


> That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
> I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.


Oh, I missed the coil part, thought the 55 had air spring...


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Well, I may have said before but, I have ridden a 55ti RC3 V2 160 and a Pike and obviously a Mattoc.

The 55ti dampens out chatter, small bump significantly more than the air forks. Being open bath and coil this wont come as a surprise. The Mattoc does a better job than the Pike especially when riding dh rather than sat down pedelling on flat or up hill.


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## YnotGorilla (Mar 22, 2008)

imbecile said:


> @all the Mattoc owners:
> In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
> Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.


The mattoc is a light, long travel trail fork, not a open bath 3 year service free coil shock  
The only thing that compares to the 55 rc3 ti is the deville, but it`s still not a coil fork...

After 6 weeks on my mattoc here are my thoughts:

-It takes at least 6000vertical meters of descent to properly break in the fork. (3-4 rides a week for 3 weeks) After this you need to change spring and compression settings.

-Performance is on par with Lyrik DH-damper and fox 36 rc2 damper at a lower weight, but lacks in the small bump compliance section compared to the 55 rc3 ti, which is expected, as it is not a coil fork. You simply get more tired going fast downhill than on the latter fork.

-There is a bit too little stock oil in the lowers, after 6 weeks there was a stanchion scratch from a stuck stone in the right seal. When opened only a few drops of water fell out of the lowers. When I opened the air side (with my proprietary grinded down 8mm socket) 5ml of muddy oil poured out. Either there is too little stock oil, or the seals are poor, time will show. Put 15ml of sticky synthetic gear box oil in both outer legs.

It is a very good light weight long travel fork, but it is not open bath and coil.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

I can add to Ynotgorilla's above comment.

Found the same with the bed in time and the need to up damping.

Now settled on 4hs, 3ls and 1 hbo from full open on all. Dropped to 55psi. 

Fork feels great. I do have a slight weeping one of my oil seals.


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

Any word on US release?


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Anyone experienced oli leaking from or from around Air valve on the bottom of the leg?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

The first actual (non consumer) review:

Manitou Mattoc Pro Fork - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Forks - Vital MTB

Very positive. Sounds like what everyone else is saying here. Great fork. Just need to have it fork sale in the USA!!!!!!!! :madman::madman::madman::madman::madmax::madmax::madmax:


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

It's not much of a review.... 


As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

AC/BC said:


> They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.


Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.

Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Second that on too little oil in the lowers, same in mine. 

How does Mattoc performs better in DH than pike?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.
> 
> Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com


Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

goRz said:


> It's not much of a review....
> 
> As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...


Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.


Which somehow reduced A-C length over prior years. I'm also struggling with the suspension setup description.

Overall I thought it was positive but pointless.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.


Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.


Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.


Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.


Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.

Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.
> 
> Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
> A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.


Every bike I have owned since 2008 used a 44mm head tube, including my current jamis XAM and wifes Jamis Parker. Both are from 2009 with rhe same frame design as the 2008 version. A friend of mine has a 2008 mongoose teocali with a 44mm as well because he converted to taper with the link from above. You are claiming 2011, most bikes by 2011 were switching to tapered head tubes with 49mm bottom cups.

Here is an article from 2010 talking about a converter head set for 44mm head tubes, and them using it on a bike from 2007. The 2010 article also states in the first line "this should help breathe new life into countless older frames out there and allow their owners to take advantage of the latest technology without having to upgrade their entire setup." I would think "older frames" from a 2010 article would be 3-5 years old. Its 2014, to that would be 7-9 years of 44mm head tubes.
New headset allows use of tapered steerers in some 1-1/8in head tubes - BikeRadar

I'm not going to argue with you any more about when 44mm head tubes came out, it really doesn't matter. This is a thread about the Mattoc. If people have straight steerer 1 1/8" steerer bikes with 44mm head tubes, you can convert to a tapered steerer fork. That's the only point of this conversation that is relevant to the thread. If you want to argue more, take it to pm so the Mattoc thread doesn't get ruined any more then it has been by off topic posts.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Well, it looks like the Mattoc is starting to hit the US (via ebay):

Mattoc Expert Tapered 15 D 26" 150mm Black | eBay


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## jdcatnau (Feb 22, 2007)

Price point has them in stock


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Dirt Merchant Bicycles has both Pro and Expert models in both wheels sizes in stock.

I've already swapped out the Pike on my bike for one. Can't wait to break it in.


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## FlavC (Apr 3, 2009)

I just finished my first ride on the Mattoc Pro. My previous fork was a Pike. My first impression is that the Mattoc is better.

The Mattoc seems to stay more glued to the trail, giving better traction through the rough stuff. The hydraulic bottom out adjust is really cool, and allows you to adjust the feel of the big hits without sacrificing small/mid performance.

In my parking lot test, the adjustments didn't seem to do very much, but they make a difference on the trail. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how the low and high speed compression setting interact with each other, but think I found a good starting point.

One thing of note is that I didn't like the fork as much with my initial settings. I had to adjust the sag, high/low compression and rebound several times before I started to find the sweet spot. Once that was done, this fork was amazing. 

The only (minor) criticism I can think of so far, is that it seems to have slightly less midstroke support than the Pike, but that might could be remedied with some more HSC adjustment. And honestly, I'm not even sure if that is a bad thing, because it seems to smooth out the trail better than the Pike and I never felt off balance, or too much over the front (once I found my good base settings).

For someone who doesn't know or care about the various suspension settings, a Pike might be easier to set up and get a good ride. But, if you're willing to spend a couple hours doing some initial tuning and experimenting, I think better performance can be had from the Mattoc!


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

June MTBing UK mag just did a 160mm fork shoutout and the Mattoc was just edged out by the Pike and BOS.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gvs_nz said:


> June MTBing UK mag just did a 160mm fork shoutout and the Mattoc was just edged out by the Pike and BOS.


What was the reasoning they gave?


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Sorry, it was UK MBR mag .
They commended it for price,deep bottomless coil like feel, HSC didn't cause it to spike. Negatives were mid pack chassis stiffness and unknoiwn reliabity. They had to use two forks during testing. First got an oil leak and the 2nd felt different to ride.Gave it a 8/10
Pike won out due to price,weight reliability nad best overall package.gave it a 10/10.
BOS got a 9/10 . Heavy and expensive but good handling,tuning, reliability.
Fox 34 Adjust got a 6 or 7/10?


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Obviously being overly critical but I'm not sure how they can state that price is pro on the Pike. It's around 12-15% more expensive than the Mattoc Pro and it runs within 0-5% of the fox 34.


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

kan3 said:


> Obviously being overly critical but I'm not sure how they can state that price is pro on the Pike.


Easy, the Pike was cheapest of the forks that didn't break.

Doesn't matter how much better the price is, if it's not working it's a bad deal. Re Pike and Deville they might have over egged the weight a bit, it's 100g between them so the Deville is hardly a tank.

I miss the old days when if MBR broke something, they would just publish a picture of the broken part and give it a 0. Oh how Cannondale loved them...


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Looking at the Pike forum and personal experiences I would not say the Pike gets a clean bill of health. Usual first gen rock shox product runs... 

So far so gd for the Mattoc. 

Couple things I've noticed. Chassis is stiffer and more solid (hard to quantify, mostly a feel and confidence thihg) on the Pikes and offset seems better on the Pike, easier to load the front end.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Not many reviews on the Mattoc yet, but the few available(from users and pro reviews) all seem similar. Great damper(what Manitou is known for) but oil leaks seem to be a common thread as well. 

At this point, with the not being available in north america yet, Im not going to get one. If anything, I will hope to find one on a new bike that I purchase next winter. Manitou states that you will see a lot of them OEM on 2015 bikes.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Not many reviews on the Mattoc yet, but the few available(from users and pro reviews) all seem similar. Great damper(what Manitou is known for) but oil leaks seem to be a common thread as well.
> 
> At this point, with the not being available in north america yet, Im not going to get one. If anything, I will hope to find one on a new bike that I purchase next winter. Manitou states that you will see a lot of them OEM on 2015 bikes.


But is the oil leak from the damper or the oil bath I wonder. A slight leak from the oil bath is an easy fix for the consumer. A leak on the damper, while theoretically just as easy, will be more of an issue for a consumer.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> But is the oil leak from the damper or the oil bath I wonder. A slight leak from the oil bath is an easy fix for the consumer. A leak on the damper, while theoretically just as easy, will be more of an issue for a consumer.


It sounds like its bath oil in all the situations I have read about. I agree that is not a big deal, but when trying to put out a new product, having them leak is never a good thing. It wouldnt stop me from getting one, damper quality is my number one concern in any suspension product I own. That is why I lean towards Manitou forks when possible.


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## Junior Varsity (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not at this point but here is a full set up guide for the Manitou Mattoc Pro and Expert.

It does a great job of outlining all the external adjustments.

*MC[SUP]2[/SUP]* Compression Damper: High Speed and Low Speed

*HBO*: Independent Compression circuit for the final 30mm of travel.

*TPC:* Rebound.

*Dorado Air Spring:* Air Pressure and Sag references.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help  Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best. 
Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)


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## FlavC (Apr 3, 2009)

goRz said:


> so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
> So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help  Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best.
> Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)


Is it set to 150mm travel? This seems to be common across several different Manitou models that I've tested...they all seem to get 10mm less than advertised. I can only guess that Manitou is counting the rubber bottom out bumper as part of the travel??? Though, it's probably impossible to compress it enough to get that last 10mm.

I admit that I find it kind of annoying, but the performance still seems better than the other brands I've tried, so I just ignore it.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

I have the Mattoc Pro and was having the same issue of not getting enough travel. Too much oil in the damper side was the problem.
Took out 5-10cc of oil did the trick. BE CAREFUL when taking off the damper side top cap, the HBO adjuster has very small springs and 2mm balls for the indents, take the HSC nob off at the same time as the HBO (as one piece), you will need a box cutter to pry off the HSC adjuster form the LSC adjuster then a 13mm socket to remove the LSC and finally a BB tool to remove the damper top cap. Pull out the damper assembly and suck out a small amount of oil.
The Pro is not a closed damper ether.
Hope this works for you.


goRz said:


> so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
> So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help  Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best.
> Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

FlavC said:


> Is it set to 150mm travel? This seems to be common across several different Manitou models that I've tested...they all seem to get 10mm less than advertised. I can only guess that Manitou is counting the rubber bottom out bumper as part of the travel??? Though, it's probably impossible to compress it enough to get that last 10mm.
> 
> I admit that I find it kind of annoying, but the performance still seems better than the other brands I've tried, so I just ignore it.


Yes, that last few mm is controlled by the top out bumper. In the past, I have modified the bumper to better achieve full travel. I actually have old "red" bumpers from an old M3 that I cut down and make slits in to make it easier to compress. Even with that, on my Nixon (145 with TPC+), I routinely only use 130-135 mm of travel with some mistakes giving me close to 140 -but that is it. However, the feel of the fork is great and 100X better than the Fox fork it replaced.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Thanks for confirmation and advice on adjusters removal.
I sucked about 7cc of oil (5 in the syringe, and who nows how much that dropped from the compression damper  )

parking lot test seems to prove this was the problem. Finally 50 psi seems like too little air.

can't wait to take it to the mountains again 



material guy said:


> I have the Mattoc Pro and was having the same issue of not getting enough travel. Too much oil in the damper side was the problem.
> Took out 5-10cc of oil did the trick. BE CAREFUL when taking off the damper side top cap, the HBO adjuster has very small springs and 2mm balls for the indents, take the HSC nob off at the same time as the HBO (as one piece), you will need a box cutter to pry off the HSC adjuster form the LSC adjuster then a 13mm socket to remove the LSC and finally a BB tool to remove the damper top cap. Pull out the damper assembly and suck out a small amount of oil.
> The Pro is not a closed damper ether.
> Hope this works for you.


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## Dusty Lung (Dec 11, 2006)

Hey all, I got my Mattoc 26 last week and have only rode it around the block and already love it compared to my pike 29 the for it replaced 2013 36 float RC2. I opened up the fork to adjust the travel to 170mm and changed the oils. When I put it back together the rebound knob will not turn and when the fork is filled with air there is only like 130mm of travel and it is still way too soft.

I'm not entirely sure the rebound knob worked to begin with and the air pressure is like at 75 psi and I weigh 190lbs. Pumping it up even higher doesn't help and the fork is just way too soft to even ride.

Should I just call Manitou/hayes or does anyone know what's up?

Thanks


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Rebound: 1) If you tighten down the small screw that hilds down the knob with out holding it, it could tighten down and feel like it is stuck
2) If the damper shaft is not properly set & tightened the rebound knob could be botteming out on the leg casing.

Air/travel: It sounds like there is too much negitave air pressure, make sure that your pump is installed corectly to open both chambers. Have bike upside down with pump installed, stand on handle bars & pull up on the fork. You should then here theair pressure equalizing out if done correctly.

Hope this helps.


Dusty Lung said:


> Hey all, I got my Mattoc 26 last week and have only rode it around the block and already love it compared to my pike 29 the for it replaced 2013 36 float RC2. I opened up the fork to adjust the travel to 170mm and changed the oils. When I put it back together the rebound knob will not turn and when the fork is filled with air there is only like 130mm of travel and it is still way too soft.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure the rebound knob worked to begin with and the air pressure is like at 75 psi and I weigh 190lbs. Pumping it up even higher doesn't help and the fork is just way too soft to even ride.
> 
> ...


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## Junior Varsity (Aug 17, 2007)

The Dorado air spring in the Mattoc (and in Dorado) uses a poppet valve to connect the positive and negative air chambers when setting up air pressure. The valve opens when the pump is attached, and closes again when the pump is removed. While the pump is attached, the connected positive and negative chambers means the spring system does not create much extension force due to the small differential area on each side of the air piston. What this means is you should give the fork a pull to ensure it is fully extended before removing the pump. This will ensure the fork is at full ride-height and has full travel available.


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

Hey guys anybody pull the lowers off ? I want to change the travel on mine and they mention I 'need' a thin walled long 8mm socket. 

What did you guys do? Grind a regular long 8mm? Fits flush with a regular one?

Thanks for the help!


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

zoro said:


> Hey guys anybody pull the lowers off ? I want to change the travel on mine and they mention I 'need' a thin walled long 8mm socket.
> 
> What did you guys do? Grind a regular long 8mm? Fits flush with a regular one?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Yup.


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## YnotGorilla (Mar 22, 2008)

GRiND


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

What a great fork. Loving mine alot now. And yes you have to be careful when pumping up the air leg.


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## Caol (Mar 18, 2014)

Running ~10 psi more than recommended, full LS and 4 click HS from open. No HBO. 2 clicks from open on the rebound.


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

So I've had mine for a couple of hard rides, including some long, hard sustained dh-like runs and some more bike park flow stuff with some regular trail riding mixed in.

I'm not the best at setting up suspensions, but the setup guide comes in pretty handy to give you a good base tune. What I have found so far: 
1. I like the suppleness of the first part of the travel. It's a night and day differecne with my old RockShox (sektor/revelation hybrid).
2. The rebound damper is really well designed and works very very well. Where my old fork would pack up and feel like a jackhammer, this fork just motos through the rough stuff. It's actually quite disconcerning I'd say!
3. Once you get the proper tools, or grind some into submission, it's a very easy fork to work with.
4. I can finally run 'normal' air pressure. I used to have to 'overpressurize' my forks in order to compensate for the lack of support. Makes for a much more enjoyable overall ride.
5. Red is killer! The matte finish isn't durable.


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## Dusty Lung (Dec 11, 2006)

Does anyone know what brake adapter you need to run an 8 inch rotor?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

I used a Shimano 160-180 adaptor. Since the Shimano rotors are actually 203mm (not 200mm) I also used 2 washers that come with chain guides which are 2.5mm thick. I stacked the washers under the adaptor. Works perfect although it took a few runs for the pads to break in on the slightly repositioned swept area on the rotor.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Searched through the thread but didn't see an answer. Can the 27.5 Mattoc be lowered to 120mm without any issues?


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

Doubtful. I'll page somebody in the know about it I'll get back to you. It will go to 140 though.

*EDIT: *I got the word from one of Manitou's tech and he said it's totally possible! You just have to slide 2 more spacer than the 2 already in place (for 140mm). You would need additionnal spacers though 'cause you need more than what is provided in the kit you get with the fork.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Sweet
Thanks much!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kan3 said:


> Searched through the thread but didn't see an answer. Can the 27.5 Mattoc be lowered to 120mm without any issues?


Hopefully an owner can confirm. But with the Dorado style air spring it's set for travel height by connecting positive/negative air chambers when a pump is connected. So you may be able to compress it far enough with the pump attached, remove it and see what the new equilibrium height is.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Has anyone measured the stock compression shim stack and preload-dish yet?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Pinkbike has just a fairly comprehensive review of the Mattoc, they seem to like it - Manitou Mattoc Pro - Review - Pinkbike


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## Autocratic (May 26, 2013)

Putting the Mattoc on my Banshee. Almost done with the build. Can't wait.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Kiwiplague said:


> Pinkbike has just a fairly comprehensive review of the Mattoc, they seem to like it - Manitou Mattoc Pro - Review - Pinkbike


Seems to be on par with the pike and 36, slightly ahead in damping and slight behind in chassis. Pretty much what you would expect from Manitou, great damping. 34mm chassis will never feel the same as a 35 or 36mm chassis, but it sounds like its close enough that 90% of us wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

Im sold.


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

I posted it earlier in this thread. It's totally possible to go to 120mm. I've seen one at 100mm. I was warned though that you might need to tune the damper depending on how you ride. The 100mm one I saw was on a park bike.


Dougal said:


> Hopefully an owner can confirm.


Why do you need an owner to confirm what Manitou has said?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

GTR-33 said:


> I posted it earlier in this thread. It's totally possible to go to 120mm. I've seen one at 100mm. I was warned though that you might need to tune the damper depending on how you ride. The 100mm one I saw was on a park bike.
> 
> Why do you need an owner to confirm what Manitou has said?


The manitou part was added after Dougal posted his comment. That is pretty cool that you can modify travel so easily. From 100-170mm (on a 26" bike) is nice.


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## Dlongb13 (Jan 13, 2012)

Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.

Thanks


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

I do not have that issue with my fork.
Try to contact Manitou, they are very fast with there answers.


Dlongb13 said:


> Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.
> 
> Thanks


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Dlongb13 said:


> Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.
> 
> Thanks


Did you thread your shock pump on the valve properly? Because it sounds like the negative chamber isn't inflated enough, and that chamber only fills if the airvalve has been opened far enough.


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## YnotGorilla (Mar 22, 2008)

Dlongb13 said:


> Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.
> 
> Thanks


Go for a ride instead of tinkering on the web about potential problems. As mentioned + & - air chambers need to equalize, this happens when you use the fork. only make incremental changes to + air pressure between rides, and observe changes. This goes for all forks using self-equalizing negative springs, including deville, pike, magura +++

Also, this fork, as most air forks, requires some serious brake in mileage. You will probably need to up pressure or LSC after a few thousand meters of descent. if I was doing the EWS next week I wouldn't put new units on my steed..


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## Dlongb13 (Jan 13, 2012)

YnotGorilla said:


> Go for a ride instead of tinkering on the web about potential problems. As mentioned + & - air chambers need to equalize, this happens when you use the fork. only make incremental changes to + air pressure between rides, and observe changes. This goes for all forks using self-equalizing negative springs, including deville, pike, magura +++
> 
> Also, this fork, as most air forks, requires some serious brake in mileage. You will probably need to up pressure or LSC after a few thousand meters of descent. if I was doing the EWS next week I wouldn't put new units on my steed..


Ok buddy, you don't have to be condescending here. It was something I noticed so I inquired in a thread on forum when knowledge of said product seemed to be in abundance. Sorry for wanting to get opinions of others before I went out and did damage to said fork.

That being said, released all the air, depressed slightly, about 5 mm, and then inflated and the issue was gone. I had read that you need to make sure the fork was fully extended before inflating, I went to the extreme on that. I did call Manitou and they called me back but after I fixed the problem but they were very helpful with their explanations.

And my last 2 pikes or my previous 34 did not require break in times at all. And judging from the one ride I did yesterday on the Mattoc, is doesn't "require" a break in either, it felt phenomenal. That being said, I know it will break in and characteristics may change requiring me to adjust my set up, but the performance of the fork new is more than adequate. Manitou confirmed this in my conversation with them about the fork yesterday.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Great you figured it out! Could help others reading this topic.
What I deduct from the design, you could actually change the "off the top" behaviour by choosing the point in the travel at which the shock pump will be disconnected, right?

So for a little lower/softer ride, you can inflate the spring at 1cm from topout? Who wants to try?


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## Autocratic (May 26, 2013)

Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Autocratic said:


> Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?


Face Fender (R)


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

Autocratic said:


> Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?


I jsut punched 'new' holes in mine. As a bonus feature it gives you front AND back coverage now!!


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## alexey_shmat (Mar 6, 2013)

Hi everyone. Who has experience with maintance of Mattoc Compression Damping? How much oil volume I need for Mattoc damper?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*Mattoc air spring issues and ride report.*

FYI anyone having issues with the dorado air spring playing silly beggars need to read this!
Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike

After stripping them right down a couple of times due to them not feeling right I decided to take to the Dorado service manual!

Travel adjustment of 27.5 model to 170mm cannot be done without completely replacing the rebound assembly. (confirmed from manitou UK importer)
The part# for the pro version are:
Cartridge Rebound Damper Assembly
26" - 141-30996-K003
27.5" - 141-30996-K017
RRP ~£65

Such a stupidly small part you have to replace the entire damper for!
On the plus side you can convert your expert fork with the above part to a pro for only £65!

More to the point my ride report:
After correcting the poppet valve the forks are now extremely plush in the initial stroke, and have nice mid-stroke support.
This means you can run the air spring at the suggested low pressures even when your fat like me! (16st)
HBO bottom out does what it says on the tin.
It doesn't completely cut off the oil flow, but gives enough of a change in damping that the bottom-out bumper is engaged without any harshness.
My previous forks I've had to tune the air spring to make up for the dampers lack of mid stroke support and bottom out adjustment, when the damping setup is active for very aggressive riding. So I was happily surprised that the manitou lived up to its reputation with this.
I am an experienced fork/shock techy, so can happily tune my own forks and shocks to get the best out of them. 
The great news about this fork, is I've had to do absolutely no fettling!
(apart from fixing something that shouldn't have ever been broke!)
And for me thats pretty unheard of!
I doubt i'll even bother taking them upto 170mm even though i'm running 26in wheels, as I really don't think i'd be able to notice the difference in travel.

Scar
P.s. My history of forks for reference: Specialized E160TA (what I was running before the Mattoc), 06' 66 SL's, Xfusion Vengeance, 55 ATA, 08' 66 ATA RC3, RS Sektor TPC, Manitou Sherman.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Just to understand and before I buy it. Where are the needed tool disponible? Or must man "create" them ourselves ?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*mattoc tools*



Samos said:


> Just to understand and before I buy it. Where are the needed tool disponible? Or must man "create" them ourselves ?


To adjust the travel:
1x 4mm allen key (to undo the air shaft) **instead of thin wall 8mm socket**
1x 2mm allen key (to remove rebound knob)
1x 8mm Allen key (to unbolt the rebound damper)
1x Cassette tool (to unbolt the air piston.) 
**This needs to be a cassette tool with a large center hole that fits over the end of the piston.**

Scar


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

The cassette tool with the large hole is the only thing I'm missing. And I'm not equipped to modify mine...


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

scar4me said:


> 1x 4mm allen key (to undo the air shaft) **instead of thin wall 8mm socket**


How does that work ?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

scar4me said:


> FYI anyone having issues with the dorado air spring playing silly beggars need to read this!
> Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike
> 
> After stripping them right down a couple of times due to them not feeling right I decided to take to the Dorado service manual!
> ...


Good spotting with the poppet valve. But regarding the travel, you shouldn't run a 27" wheel with the 170mm travel rebound shaft.
The difference in travel is I believe the bottom-out height. Installing the 26" 170mm rebound shaft (10mm shorter HBO height) means your fork compresses 10mm further and there is a risk of the crown grabbing the tyre on full compression.

This does of course depend on your individual rim and tyre choice. But it's a risk that needs to be considered.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Question about the travel spacers.

I've got a very nice option on a Mattoc, set at 170mm. Yes, it's a 26'' of course. It's not new, but was ridden only 2 times (injury during other sport,well...). But, it has no travel spacer with it. And it seems that Manitou isn't selling them separately.

Does someby know the exact measurement of it ? And maybe if the Rock Shox or Fox travel spacer are usable ?

Thanks.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*mattoc parts*

Use the contact us page for Hayes support on the Manitou site, they can be pretty helpful.
Advise them you've lost the travel spacers, and want to know the part number so you can order them. (They might be nice enough to sort you out, or at least be able to tell you how to get them.)

The EU support were much more helpful than the UK importer.
UK importer said I had to buy an entire new rebound damper, EU support said yes it was a late decision to include the HBO spares in with the 27.5 forks. 
So EU support will be sending me the HBO part out FOC once they've got them in.
(the first batch of mattoc's didn't come with the additional HBO part in the spares bag)

Also for anyone thinking of upgrading travel (as per Dougal's note).....
170mm setup is for 26in wheels only! 
!!170mm with 27.5in wheels will contact the crown and cause risk of death!!

Pic of the HBO part and Travel spacers:
Silver = 33mm 170mm HBO part (26in wheels only!)
Black = 43mm 160mm HBO part (26/27.5 wheels)
Spacer = C shaped 10mm black bits








Scar


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Sods law.....
just after i replied the postman turned up with my Mattoc parts kit!

Exactly whats in the above picture.
Manitou part# 141-30159-K010
Kit name: "MY14 KIT.MATTOC AM SPACER KIT"
**EDIT**(This part number and Kit name is for the Mattoc Pro damper ONLY!!)
Mattoc Expert damper has a completely different HBO diameter and length (29mm and 39mm).
**/EDIT**

Any reputable shop will be able to order this part number from Hayes for you.


Scar


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## intensworks (Nov 9, 2005)

goRz said:


> Anyone experienced oli leaking from or from around Air valve on the bottom of the leg?


Yes..I did...Did you get support?


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

scar4me said:


> Sods law.....
> just after i replied the postman turned up with my Mattoc parts kit!
> 
> Exactly whats in the above picture.
> ...


May I kindly ask you to measure the outside and inside diameter of the spacer please ? Can you also post some pictures from different view angles ?

Thanks


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

So my mattoc expert shortened istself after 3 days in mmountains from 160 to 130 mm... And leaked lots of Oil when letting air out...


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## intensworks (Nov 9, 2005)

*Fix?*

Were you able to get it fixed? If so what was the cause and replacement parts? Thanks



goRz said:


> So my mattoc expert shortened istself after 3 days in mmountains from 160 to 130 mm... And leaked lots of Oil when letting air out...


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

Not yet. Send It to manitou. Tried pumping It once more It reached 150 mm but shortened to 140 after one ride...


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

goRz said:


> How does that work ?


Just push the 4mm allen key into the bottom of the air piston where the valve is, and undo it.
It's slightly annoying having to fight with the spring of the valve, but way simpler than trying to modify a socket (or rounding the bolt with an incorrectly fitting one).

Just make sure when putting it back together, you only get a single turn on the air piston, and then pull the lowers up completely and hold them there at full extenstion for a while before doing it up tight.
This makes sure you don't end up with a vacuum in the lowers that will unbalance the air spring of the fork.

This is the same procedure that you can do to fix the problem goRz mentioned.
As mentioned earlier I'd also check your poppet valve positioning.

The fork shouldn't leak oil from the air valve.
If it does it means that the oil level in the air chamber is incorrect.
The way the piston is designed gives a small recess for the oil to sit in, and directly lubricate the piston whilst the air valve sticks out above it.
Unfortunately if you've had this, then it's likely that when pressuring the fork some of the oil has managed to transfer to the negative side of the piston.
So send it back to Manitou to get them to fix it as your first port of call.

IF you wanted to fix it yourself, it means basically stripping the fork as if your doing the travel adjust. Cleaning all the air piston down, and making sure when re-building you only put *7cc* of oil into the top of the air piston.

Scar


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

So you guys using synthetic motor oil instead of the Motorex Semi-Bath stuff? It seems to be the same stuff, at least from what I've gathered reading elsewhere.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

zoro said:


> So you guys using synthetic motor oil instead of the Motorex Semi-Bath stuff? It seems to be the same stuff, at least from what I've gathered reading elsewhere.
> 
> View attachment 917004


There are probably hundreds of different synthetic motor oils. Some are very good as splash bath oil, some are very bad.

If you want to use motor oil, best to pick a proven brand and type.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

scar4me said:


> Use the contact us page for Hayes support on the Manitou site, they can be pretty helpful.
> Advise them you've lost the travel spacers, and want to know the part number so you can order them. (They might be nice enough to sort you out, or at least be able to tell you how to get them.)
> 
> The EU support were much more helpful than the UK importer.
> ...


Received today from the US in Switzerland some travel spacers. Must say I'm impressed they sent it. Really happy!

Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

I see for 2015 CUBE spec the Mattoc on some of the Stereo 160. That's major OEM kudos.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gvs_nz said:


> I see for 2015 CUBE spec the Mattoc , over the Pike,on some of the higher spec Stereo 160. That's major OEM kudos.


That would be great news for Manitou.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

I was reading a pre-release and got it wrong. It's not a high spec Stereo SHPC carbon bike but a low speced alloy Stereo[ previously called Fritzz160] .Still it's in the OEM mix.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

So if I understoof the post about the special tools, there are no special tools needed to modify the travel ? Right ? Seems to me to be a little bit tricky with the 4mm allen key in the air valve... Is it really or not ?


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

So can somebody give us a mid- long-term review over the Mattoc ?


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

subscribing to hear some more feedback on this fork. May get the Mattoc instead of the Pike


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Not a ride report but there is a story on pink bike about Manitou updating the 15mm axle. This was considered one of the negatives of the fork and it looks like Manitou upgraded the system dramatically.

Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike


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## Terenceang (Aug 28, 2011)

I am really keen in getting a Mattoc Pro 27.5 lowered to 140mm for my Trance 27.5. But I have seen a few reports about losing travel. 

I understand one of the cause is air from the positive air chamber escaping into the negative air chamber and you can resolve it by just extending the fork while pumping up.
I am not sure about the lost of travel due to oil leak.


So how serious are the issues? Very common or only happened to a few "lucky" fellows.


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## Autocratic (May 26, 2013)

I've had no issues with my fork. you need to set air pressure with the fork upside down. Connecting the pump opens both chambers. When you have your pressure set, pull on the lower stanchions to make sure you have full travel, then disconnect.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

After a week of rides with my Mattoc I'm very impressed and happy with the performances. But today.... I remarked that my rebound setting was fully open tried to slow it a bit and.... the knob spin without any influence on the rebound speed and without any end in both directions...

Does it already happened to anybody ? How to solve it ?


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Does anybody have a Mattoc service guide ? My rebound assembly disassembled itself....

As I wrote yesterday, my rebound knob wasn't effective. It was all fast, no damping anymore. I dismounted the legs and as I wanted to touch the rebound assembly... it stayed in my hand, letting oil fall to the ground...

Here a picture.









The part bottom left in the picture was in my hand.
The part bottom right, the smallest one, was inside the part on the top.

I tried, but couldn't reassemble the two upper parts.

Help me please.


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## Terenceang (Aug 28, 2011)

Anyone weighed their Mattoc Pro? What is the actual weight?


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## alexey_shmat (Mar 6, 2013)

Terenceang said:


> Anyone weighed their Mattoc Pro? What is the actual weight?


My one was 1900 gramm with full length steerer, Matt black wersion. White version should have a little bit more weight due to paint.


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## Terenceang (Aug 28, 2011)

alexey_shmat said:


> My one was 1900 gramm with full length steerer, Matt black wersion. White version should have a little bit more weight due to paint.


Thanks!


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## Terenceang (Aug 28, 2011)

Do you guys think it is an overkill to install Mattoc Pro lowered to 140mm on a Trance 27.5 for light trail riding (basically no vertical square edged drop of more than 2ft at the trail I usually ride) and I am very light (non-aggressive rider), 130lb with gears?

I think Pike is definitely an overkill for most of my riding (and a little too expensive), so thinking of changing to either Rockshox Revelation RCT3 or Manitou Mattoc Pro (I can get either one at about the same price).

Any advice? 

Thanks in advance!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Terenceang said:


> Do you guys think it is an overkill to install Mattoc Pro lowered to 140mm on a Trance 27.5 for light trail riding (basically no vertical square edged drop of more than 2ft at the trail I usually ride) and I am very light (non-aggressive rider), 130lb with gears?
> 
> I think Pike is definitely an overkill for most of my riding (and a little too expensive), so thinking of changing to either Rockshox Revelation RCT3 or Manitou Mattoc Pro (I can get either one at about the same price).
> 
> ...


Same here.... but I went with an X-Fusion Sweep.
I was considering the Mattoc too.

Yeah, you could call it overkill, but the dampers in the 34-36mm forks are well above of what you can find in a Revelation/32 fork. Chassis stiffness will be of little note for us light ones, but welcome anyways and we are talking about a 150-200grs of weight penalty.

I'd say go for it but it is your call, really.

I suppose you are on the crappy Fox 32's EVO just like me. Even a Revelation will be an improvement, but I went to the next level.


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## Terenceang (Aug 28, 2011)

Warp said:


> Same here.... but I went with an X-Fusion Sweep.
> I was considering the Mattoc too.
> 
> Yeah, you could call it overkill, but the dampers in the 34-36mm forks are well above of what you can find in a Revelation/32 fork. Chassis stiffness will be of little note for us light ones, but welcome anyways and we are talking about a 150-200grs of weight penalty.
> ...


Actually, I did consider the X-Fusion Sweep too.
But some people say that X-Fusion fork crown will creak?

Did you lower your Sweep to 140mm? How does the damper feels?
Does the 46mm offset (rake) makes any drastic difference (positive or negative)?

Thanks!!!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Terenceang said:


> Actually, I did consider the X-Fusion Sweep too.
> But some people say that X-Fusion fork crown will creak?
> 
> Did you lower your Sweep to 140mm? How does the damper feels?
> ...


I have not received it yet. I will let you know.

I have read reports of creaking crowns from all manufacturers so far. Pikes, Mattocs, Sweeps, you name it.

I went with the X-Fusion for the better reputation of the Aussie distro, so in case anything goes wrong, I'd be covered.

Also, I am not tinkering as much as I did. So less adjustments is fine by me now given that the damper is all shims and has decent performance. At least close to Mattocs and Pikes.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

*8" Rotor Adaptor*

Just wanted to give a quick follow up for anyone still needing a better solution for using a 203mm rotor with their Mattoc.

I had previously posted about using a 160-180 adaptor plus a couple chainguide 2.5mm washers. This generally worked but was'nt the best or most elegant solution.

I cant remember if I saw it on here or maybe ride monkey that Hope makes 160-183 adaptors, which gives the correct 23mm offset for the 180 post mounts on the Mattoc to a 203mm rotor.

I picked one up, and since they only come in bare aluminum I painted it. Got it mounted up and its perfect.

Hope this helps anyone still needing the info!


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## beachbum1 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ok here is a silly question. It looks like the axle to crown length changes with spacers. How is this achieved? I'm not looking for the step by step procedure but more what the spacer does to shorten the length? I have a fox34 evolution with 150 mm travel and am looking for an upgrade. I would like to match the crown to axle length so as to not change the geometry of my bike. The spacers would allow me to do this? Thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

beachbum1 said:


> Ok here is a silly question. It looks like the axle to crown length changes with spacers. How is this achieved? I'm not looking for the step by step procedure but more what the spacer does to shorten the length? I have a fox34 evolution with 150 mm travel and am looking for an upgrade. I would like to match the crown to axle length so as to not change the geometry of my bike. The spacers would allow me to do this? Thanks.


Spacers go on the compression rod on the spring side. Inside the leg roughly where you find top-out bumpers.

*edit*
I've got the schematics now. 
There are three possible spacer positions on the compression rod. 
27" forks get one under the bottomout bumper (to clear the bigger tyre) and the other two can be added above the top-out bumper to reduce travel from 160-150-140mm.
26" forks can use 1-3 above the topout bumper to reduce travel from 170-140mm.

To change between 27" and 26" the HBO cone on the rebound damper also needs swapped.


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## beachbum1 (Oct 2, 2012)

awesome and thanks. Anyone have any good online sources for the Mattoc? The only one I could find is Chain reaction cycles and it is as expensive as the Pike. I would jump on one if I could find one in the $600 range. If I can't find one cheaper than the Pike, I would just assume get the Pike. I tried to get onto promotive and did with my IMBA membership but IMBA doesn't have the manitou brand. Argh.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I found best price for Mattoc Expert (and also Pike) here
https://www.bike-components.de/en/M...38/black-160-mm-1-5-tapered-PM-QR15-o6946121/

I'm about to order one, but I'm still not 100% sure about it.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

*A little late to the Mattoc party*

After much waffling about I finally ordered a Manitou Mattoc for my bike. Picked up the Mattoc Pro 27.5, at the price I got it I only had the choice of red or red, I ended up picking the red one.

The Mattoc is noted to need a little time to fully break in before it feels 100%. I have browsed through most of this thread and for the most part people seem to be pretty happy with fork. A few problems have been reported, but seem to be fairly few and far between.

That said is there anything I need to watch out for?


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

*Velostar USA for Mattoc*



beachbum1 said:


> awesome and thanks. Anyone have any good online sources for the Mattoc? The only one I could find is Chain reaction cycles and it is as expensive as the Pike. I would jump on one if I could find one in the $600 range. If I can't find one cheaper than the Pike, I would just assume get the Pike. I tried to get onto promotive and did with my IMBA membership but IMBA doesn't have the manitou brand. Argh.


I have yet to receive mine, but I ordered one through Velostar USA. 
Manitou - Mattoc Pro Red 1.5" Tapered 26

I am in Canada, the fork is in customs right now. I can update the status once it arrives. But if you don't mind a red fork, this price can't be beat.

Cheers


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rideitall said:


> I have yet to receive mine, but I ordered one through Velostar USA.
> Manitou - Mattoc Pro Red 1.5" Tapered 26
> 
> I am in Canada, the fork is in customs right now. I can update the status once it arrives. But if you don't mind a red fork, this price can't be beat.
> ...


Can't wait to hear your report. I will probably have to wait till the spring of 2015 to get the Mattoc.


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

For those running an 8" rotor, any issues with chassis flex when on the front brake hard?


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Well the post office dropped off the package notice, a quick trip to the local post office and I had my Mattoc. Heading out for the weekend, so won't get chance to install it until next week. A couple of quick snaps for the record.

It's red, but that was the only choice. The fork on it's own looks nice, however, I think it will likely look like shite when installed on my gold/bronze Trance SX.

Oh well, first world troubles.

Ready to open, almost like XMas








Looking good


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rideitall said:


> Well the post office dropped off the package notice, a quick trip to the local post office and I had my Mattoc. Heading out for the weekend, so won't get chance to install it until next week. A couple of quick snaps for the record.
> 
> It's red, but that was the only choice. The fork on it's own looks nice, however, I think it will likely look like shite when installed on my gold/bronze Trance SX.
> 
> ...


Looks nice! Gold, bronze and red. That should be a sight in the woods!


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

How has seal lubrication been on your forks? How often are you needing to grease/soak the form wipers?


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Anyone got any pics of the white mattoc mounted up? I'm about to order one just can't decide black or white


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Hey Rideitall, ever get the fork mounted up? Any ride reports?


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Vespasianus said:


> Hey Rideitall, ever get the fork mounted up? Any ride reports?


My bad, it is still in the box. Only been out riding a couple of times in the past couple of weeks. This past week it has been cold out here on the west coast. Tonight I hope to install my upgraded KS Lev Integra seat post and the Mattoc.

Changing to the Mattoc will also involve a stem/bar swap as well. Current fork is the factory Talas 34 (160/140) with the OD2 steerer paired with a 1 1/4 x 70mm x 6 deg rise stem and 730mm x 19mm bar. With the Mattoc I will replace the stem with a 1 1/8 x 60mm x 0 deg rise stem, along with a 750mm bar with 30mm rise.

Should be fun. Will have to have the heater on in the workshop and perhaps a nice hot chocolate with spiced rum (mmm spiced rum!!!).

Thanks for the push to get this done.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

if you have od2 arent you going to need a new headset top cup? not sure what model bike you have but i know on the trance only the 3 came with a standard taper, all the other models came with the fat tube taper


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

obs08 said:


> if you have od2 arent you going to need a new headset top cup? not sure what model bike you have but i know on the trance only the 3 came with a standard taper, all the other models came with the fat tube taper


Yes, that is true, luckily for me I have a couple of standard cups and bearings sets from previous builds. Far as I know it should work.

The headtube is the same on the Giant OD2 it just uses a different cup and bearing for the 1 1/4 steerer. If I replace with the standard top cup and bearing a standard 1 1/2 to 1 1/8 tape steerer should work fine?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rideitall said:


> Yes, that is true, luckily for me I have a couple of standard cups and bearings sets from previous builds. Far as I know it should work.
> 
> The headtube is the same on the Giant OD2 it just uses a different cup and bearing for the 1 1/4 steerer. If I replace with the standard top cup and bearing a standard 1 1/2 to 1 1/8 tape steerer should work fine?


Yeah, just needs a standard 44m cup.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Yeah, just needs a standard 44m cup.


The cup is standard, it's the bearing, wedge and top cap that is different. Just throw a campy 4545 inner bearing, wedge and cap and you're good.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The cup is standard, it's the bearing, wedge and top cap that is different. Just throw a campy 4545 inner bearing, wedge and cap and you're good.


I guess I just worded it poorly. He said he had other headsets laying around so I meant if one is 44mm it will work.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback on the set up of the OD2 to a regular taper. I thought I had the complete setup but, alas no. After locating the cup and bearing I could not find the compression ring and the top cap. The LBS has a complete top portion of the FSA headset. Will pick it up after work tomorrow along with a few non OD2 spacers.

Everything else looks to be in order. Will give it a go in hopes of finishing everything up tomorrow.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

anyone here lowered the mattoc themselves? i just got mine in the mail and need it at 140mm. i printed out the directions, im pretty handy with tools as ive been/was an auto mechanic for 12 years. lbs says about $25 to do it. i do enjoy working on my bike so im tempted to do it myself but for $25, it almost seems easier to let them mess with the oil levels and what not


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

I did, lowered to 140 since day one.
It's pretty easy but you need to file down an 8mm socket to unbolt the air shaft.

I did myself because it's an easy job, plus I put the oil I wanted and not some random fork oil laying around like a lot of lbs do.

Amazing fork, btw.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Picked up the required headset bits to change from OD2 to regular tape and then mounted up the Mattoc on the bike. The fork looks good on its' own, but would look so much better on the bike if I had been able to get the black lowers rather than red (oh well).

Haven't got out for a ride as yet. Loaded up the bike this morning and will take the afternoon off to get out for a ride. It was dark this morning but still managed to get a couple of pictures of the updated setup.

Picture of the Fox 34 Talas Factory and the Manitou Mattoc









Couple of pictures of the Mattoc on the bike.















I did manage to mount up the Mucky Nuts mud fender but it is really tight with the Schwable Magic Mary tire. Have setup the fork with 75 psi feels good, but will need to fine tune once on the trails.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

i love the gold trance, wish i had one myself


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

rideitall said:


> Picture of the Fox 34 Talas Factory and the Manitou Mattoc
> 
> View attachment 944205


For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic? I'm considering either a Pike or Mattoc on my Blur TR, which was built for a Fox 32 140mm with 510mm axle-to-crown. The Mattoc 160mm 26" fork says it has 545mm a2c at the stock 160mm travel. That's quite a lot more.

A 150mm pike is 525mm a2c. That seems a lot more doable on my Blur TR. Which sucks, because I really wanted a Mattoc in general, but especially because Chain Reaction Cycles has the Expert on sale for US$585.

I guess I'd probably lower the Mattoc to 140mm, which would make it 525mm a2c.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

I now have two rides on the Mattoc on my Trance SX. It replaced a Factory 34 Talas with OD2.

Took a little fiddling with air pressure, but looks like I got the correct range now. At 190lbs + gear, I am running around 80psi. This is higher than stated range, but it could be my pump as I am also running higher than typical air pressure in my DB Inline. 

I put in recommended air pressure, it felt super smooth but was way too soft, kept adding until it felt right on the and eyeballed about 25mm sag. I was as high as 85psi but lowered down to 80psi on the trails as it was feeling too harsh over small bumps.

Running 2 -3 clicks of HBO, 1 or 2 LSC and 2 of HSC. Best thing I can say is the other than the seeing the red crown and lowers, the fork just disappears. I really don't notice it, whether it is plowing through rocks and roots or a steep section on the trail, it just works. In comparison to the Talas 34, it does feel smoother and seems to take repeated small to mid size hit better. That said the Factory 34 started to feel better after getting a half dozen or so rides on it. Still uncertain on what I am going to do with the Talas 34 either to sell or have the Push RC2 kit installed. Would be a good comparison to see what difference it would make.

Learning to deal with no travel adjust and using more body english, so that is ongoing. Anyway here is a couple of pictures of the fork mounted up. For reference I showed a picture of the 34 Talas. 

One last comment on the Manitou, I believe it uses 34mm stanchions like the Fox 34. Even though I am likely close to 200lbs with gear and am a hack in terms of riding light and with flow, I have been pleasantly surprised with both the Fox 34 and the Manitou Mattoc in not feeling any flex from the fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic? I'm considering either a Pike or Mattoc on my Blur TR, which was built for a Fox 32 140mm with 510mm axle-to-crown. The Mattoc 160mm 26" fork says it has 545mm a2c at the stock 160mm travel. That's quite a lot more.
> 
> A 150mm pike is 525mm a2c. That seems a lot more doable on my Blur TR. Which sucks, because I really wanted a Mattoc in general, but especially because Chain Reaction Cycles has the Expert on sale for US$585.
> 
> I guess I'd probably lower the Mattoc to 140mm, which would make it 525mm a2c.


The bike my Mattoc is on originally had a RS Sektor. I just measured both.

The Sektor (26" 140mm) is ~525mm A2C.
The Mattoc (26" 160mm) is ~545mm A2C.

So that's looking pretty much the same.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

ColinL said:


> For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic?


It looks like the mattoc is resting on its reverse-arch, making it look longer because its crown is elevated from the table surface. It also has a thicker crown


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> The bike my Mattoc is on originally had a RS Sektor. I just measured both.
> 
> The Sektor (26" 140mm) is ~525mm A2C.
> The Mattoc (26" 160mm) is ~545mm A2C.
> ...


I decided I couldn't pass up the CRC deal and bought a black 26" Expert 160mm. Worst case, I'll get a zero stack lower bearing for my Cane Creek 40 headset, and lower the Mattoc to 140mm.

I'm going to start by just riding the damn thing. :thumbsup:


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

two-one said:


> It looks like the mattoc is resting on its reverse-arch, making it look longer because its crown is elevated from the table surface. It also has a thicker crown


Yup, in matching up the axle as best I could, the crown on both forks is remarkably close, looked to be with a couple of mm. Not enough to make me work one way or the other.

Only second ride and feeling right at home on it.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Anyone with an expert model, I just installed mine and I'm counting more clicks on the adjustments than manitou is listing on the set up guide. Anyone else run into this? I had my fork lowered by a very good lbs, but I always worry either way


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> Anyone with an expert model, I just installed mine and I'm counting more clicks on the adjustments than manitou is listing on the set up guide. Anyone else run into this? I had my fork lowered by a very good lbs, but I always worry either way


How much more? Are the clicks having changes in the settings (rebound, etc)?

Also, is this a 2014 or 2015 fork?


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> 2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click


I would not sweat that. If the knobs do what they are supposed to do, I think you should be OK. They may have modified the fork for 2015. I did hear they modified the QR15 axle. Is it better or easier to use?

Also, please ride the thing and give more ride reports! I want this fork bad but will have to wait till spring. ):


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

the qr is very easy to use, it took me about 30 seconds to figure it out initially, now its a 2 second operation. and im working on getting a ride in on it. just mounted it up yesterday and picking up the manitou mc leod shock tonight. hopefully this weekend ill be able to give them both a shake down run. its currently snowing so we will see


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

oh btw, i just bought mine off crc for $530 shipped, best price ive seen so far if anyone else is looking


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> oh btw, i just bought mine off crc for $530 shipped, best price ive seen so far if anyone else is looking


That is a great price!

Does it have this feature:

Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

obs08 said:


> 2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click


Interesting, hs knob on mine (pro) feels similar, 2 clicks with audible click and 3 harder clicks by feeling, in the end 5 clicks against the 6 advertised. Other adjustments are correct.

I saw on a german forum that other users had mismatching clicks, so it might not be a problem. I will contact Manitou, anyway..


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

caste said:


> Interesting, hs knob on mine (pro) feels similar, 2 clicks with audible click and 3 harder clicks by feeling, in the end 5 clicks against the 6 advertised. Other adjustments are correct.
> 
> I saw on a german forum that other users had mismatching clicks, so it might not be a problem. I will contact Manitou, anyway..


id be interested to hear what they have to say. awesome stanton btw, are you in us or uk?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> That is a great price!
> 
> Does it have this feature:
> 
> Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike


I think you're talking about the revised QR15 axle?

If so, I just received my Mattoc Expert 2015 from Chain Reaction Cycles, and yes, it does have the new axle shown in these pics. It is relatively easy to use; keyed and has 'UP' engraved on the part of the axle that faces up. However, you do have to dial in your own torque setting, unlike a Fox QR15 which is pre-set from the factory.

Minor little step, and probably a good thing, provided that the user don't set the torque too high or too low.

I like the brake housing guides on the left leg, also. Those 10 grams were well spent.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Am I the only person who finds the old 15mm axle easy to use? Never had an issue with it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Am I the only person who finds the old 15mm axle easy to use? Never had an issue with it.


I actually have never used the original one that Manitou had, as my other Manitou fork installs were regular QR. (Wife has a Marvel Pro, FIL has a Tower Expert.)

I did read a number of early Mattoc reviews (Pinkbike, etc) that complained about it, but I wasn't concerned so I didn't even know mine would have a new style.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have a few rides on my Mattoc Expert so far. It hasn't fully broken in, but I like it so far. Eats up roots and babyheads. I'm running it at 160mm on a Blur TR, which is 30mm more a2c than the fork they designed the frame for (float 32 140mm).

I am actually quite surprised how well it pedals, even climbing out of the saddle. Also, for anyone sitting on the fence, Chain Reaction cycles now has both the 26 & 27.5 Mattoc Expert for $525.

I gave it hell yesterday on some 'hero dirt' including berms and it's very stiff. Quite pleased so far, and I'll revisit the length/travel after more miles. Perhaps I'll lower it to 140.


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

You can also get a Mattoc Pro from hibike.de for $601 right now.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Whoa, that's got to be the strength of the dollar against the euro. Nice!!


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Just a quick post to update on my Mattoc Pro. I ended up having my fork rebuilt as a favour from a local Manitou rep. Didn't need it as it only had a couple of rides. However, similar to Fox and other mftrs, the Mattoc definitely felt better after fresh oil set at the proper volumes. I now have 5-6 rides on the fork and am really liking it. 

Running 2 clicks on HBO, 2 click HSC, and 1 click LSC (sometimes 2), rebound is somewhere near the middle if I recall. I will typically use up most of the travel on harsher hits, and about 3/4 travel on smoother g-out type features, I never feel any harsh feedback or bottom out on the fork.

The way the fork works, lets me have confidence to allow the bike to just run through a rough section of chunder or successive hits, rather than trying to thread my way through. I get what people have said that the fork feels like a mini-dh fork. The more you push it, the better it feels. That said, my riding abilities are the limiting factor on how the fork performs.

The only thing that is missing is a travel adjust. If Manitou can get that figured out and make it upgradeable on their existing Mattoc line it would be really sweet. Don't require it all that much, but sometimes on the longer, steeper, grunt type climbs it would be very nice to have.

All in all, the Mattoc fork for me works and feels much better than the Factory 34 CTD FIT it replaced.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

^^ Nice post. I need to order the tools and fluids to service my fork, and I'll probably drop it to 140. How much do you weigh and what's your sag, rideitall?

I am shedding weight (down 6 pounds since 2/1) as I get back into riding shape, but set my sag for a riding weight of 192 pounds. Between the weight I've lost and the water I wasn't carrying when I set it, I should be about spot-on for 25% sag with 60 psi in the fork.

Rebound is not the same between the Pro and Expert (which I have). Pro has 9 clicks, Expert only 4. I've got mine on 2.

On XC trails I run 3 clicks LSC, 1 HBO, 1 HSC. Chunky trails I ride 1 or 2 LSC depending on how much I need to do standing climbs. I pedal from the saddle whenever possible.

Does anyone use the MILO remote? I've got one but haven't installed it because I never use 5/5 LSC unless I'm riding pavement with my 8 year-old.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Colin

I was running 70-75 psi before having the service. Afterwards I think I was about 5 psi higher, yet is is noticeably smoother and I use more travel. I only go partly on sag, the other component is the feel. Right now, the Mattoc, feels very nice, 

I weight 190lb + gear and ride with a camelback that has with tools, water and usually, and extra jersey and gloves, so likely in the 200lb range.

Would really like to shed about 10-15 lbs, and increase the fitness, so I could push this fork at little harder and see what it does.

Edit, PSI was from memory, rather that 70-75 it might have been 80-85, then +5psi with the reworked fork. If I have time tonight I will check it out.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Has anyone moved from a Marzocchi 55CR to the mattoc? I am thinking of making the switch but I am curious how the two compare. My only complaints about the 55CR is the damping needs some refining as it tends to rebound too quickly and the weight. I would drop about 300g in the switch.

Will a noticed any loss in stiffness going from 35 to 34mm stanchions?


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

For anyone changing the travel on their Mattoc that's looking for a compatible cassette tool - the Park FR-1.2 is deep enough, the FR-1 and FR-5 are not.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

obs08 said:


> id be interested to hear what they have to say. awesome stanton btw, are you in us or uk?


Saw the message ages ago but forgot to answer.. thanks, I wish to be in us! sadly I'm in Italy.
Still have to ask Manitou, my last two months were quite busy due to work and moving out of parents house.

By the way, I realized that I could use "only" 135 out of 140mm so there is probably too much oil, plus damping feels less effective. Bath oil is also 6 months old, so it's time for a full-oil change!

Let's see if I can figure out the reason of that missing click..


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I just bought the pro from CRC. Giggity


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LaXCarp said:


> I just bought the pro from CRC. Giggity


Congrats! You'll love it. What kind of bike is it going on, and what are you replacing?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Congrats! You'll love it. What kind of bike is it going on, and what are you replacing?


It's going on my 26" knolly endorphin. Replacing a marzocchi 55cr. I really had no complaits about the 55 besides a bit hefty and rebound was always a touch spikey. We will see how it stacks up.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

LaXCarp said:


> It's going on my 26" knolly endorphin. Replacing a marzocchi 55cr. I really had no complaits about the 55 besides a bit hefty and rebound was always a touch spikey. We will see how it stacks up.


Will be interesting to hear your ideas on how they stack up. As I understand it the 55 and the new 350 from Marz typically are getting good reveiws. Before I picked up the Mattoc Pro, I was also looking at the 350CR. The price was pretty good, but when the pricing came out on the 350NCR vs the Mattoc Pro, the decision was pretty easy. Got the Mattoc and am happy with it.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok, rebuild done.

Here's a couple of things I found:

- The Fox Float fluid I used for the air chamber was in the lowers. Maybe it's not thick enough or maybe it's normal, now I will check it every 2/3 months.

- The air spring travel in 150mm mode is 140, then there is a top-out bumper which can compress about 7 mm so yes, it lacks about 5mm of travel.

- My high speed compression lacks about 1 click because it probably starts deeper, so it contacts the shim stack earlier. It's probably fixable by disassembling the damper but it's not worth it as I don't need less high speed compression.

In the end the fork is really nice and quite easy to work on, definitely way better than my old Rock Shoxs and their damned seeger rings.

Now I should test it in a couple of days, let's see how it will perform with the fresh oil in both lowers and damper.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

caste said:


> Ok, rebuild done.
> 
> Here's a couple of things I found:
> 
> ...


In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.


I just measured the dust marks on my 145mm Nixon. I'm getting a hair over 140mm from it.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.


Yeah, my main concern was to understand if the missing travel was due to hydrolock or something wrong with the air spring. 
Maybe next time I'll shorten the bumper a little bit, but I'm actually fine with 145.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

caste said:


> Yeah, my main concern was to understand if the missing travel was due to hydrolock or something wrong with the air spring.
> Maybe next time I'll shorten the bumper a little bit, but I'm actually fine with 145.


I am a big fan of quality travel versus overall-travel. I use a 2007 Nixon and have never gotten 145mm of travel. The closest I have gotten is probably 135 but I love the feel of the travel.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> I am a big fan of quality travel versus overall-travel. I use a 2007 Nixon and have never gotten 145mm of travel. The closest I have gotten is probably 135 but I love the feel of the travel.


Yes of course, that's why I love the Mattoc.. it just feels bottomless.


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## Jlowe33 (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm looking at a bike that comes with a Mattoc Comp on it. Would it be possible to upgrade it to the expert? Will there even be parts available to do this?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jlowe33 said:


> I'm looking at a bike that comes with a Mattoc Comp on it. Would it be possible to upgrade it to the expert? Will there even be parts available to do this?


I believe there are two main differences. The first is enclosed damper cartridge which is smaller and lighter. That is easy. 
The second is lighter tapered wall stanchions which means swapping the csu once you've swapped the damper to the cartridge version.

The cost and weight are the only real differences. Performance should be identical.


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## Jlowe33 (Jan 28, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I believe there are two main differences. The first is enclosed damper cartridge which is smaller and lighter. That is easy.
> The second is lighter tapered wall stanchions which means swapping the csu once you've swapped the damper to the cartridge version.
> 
> The cost and weight are the only real differences. Performance should be identical.


Thank you for the info. I was mainly wanting to do it for a little more adjustment to play with.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jlowe33 said:


> Thank you for the info. I was mainly wanting to do it for a little more adjustment to play with.


Yeah sorry missed the "comp" part before. I've yet to see one of those in person.

I don't know if the comp has the same rebound damper as the Expert or not. The Pro damper cartridge would be the known upgrade path.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Comp has abs+ damper and mars spring according to manitou website. Basically a stiffer and longer minute pro. You might be able to drop in an expert damper but doubt it will convert to Dorado spring.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

rideitall said:


> Colin
> 
> I was running 70-75 psi before having the service. Afterwards I think I was about 5 psi higher, yet is is noticeably smoother and I use more travel. I only go partly on sag, the other component is the feel. Right now, the Mattoc, feels very nice,
> 
> ...


Was riding yesterday and checked the fork air pressure. I was down to just over 80psi. Given that you loose a little pressure when attaching the pump I added back up to 95psi, felt good when pushing harder, but a little too firm over the small bumps. Dropped down to 90psi and magic.

Running 2 clicks HBO, 1 or 2 HSC, and 1 LSC. The fork just disappears along with most of the bumps. Even managed a section of chattery downhill with switchbacks much faster than before, with the front tire glued to the ground.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mattoc Experts $499 at price point

Search Results | Price Point


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Mattoc Experts $499 at price point
> 
> Search Results | Price Point


That is a great price.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Crap, you are not kidding. I am planning on picking up a Mattoc Pro in April but at that price, it might be worth just getting the expert.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

I can't speak to the difference between the Pro and Expert, but can confirm the Pro is a fantastic fork. So much better thank the factory 34.

Now if only Manitou can keep it together and get the travel adjust back. The only negative to the Mattoc, is I still find the q-release not so quick. But that could just be me.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

The Pro's rebound is different and has 9 adjustment clicks whereas the Expert has only 4, but I don't know how wide the range of adjustment is on each. On my expert there's definitely a difference between each of the four clicks.

Otherwise, they're supposed to be identical except for weight. Expert is 120g heavier.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

ColinL said:


> The Pro's rebound is different and has 9 adjustment clicks whereas the Expert has only 4, but I don't know how wide the range of adjustment is on each. On my expert there's definitely a difference between each of the four clicks.
> 
> Otherwise, they're supposed to be identical except for weight. Expert is 120g heavier.


Have you verified the low number of detents on the expert lsr with Manitou? Makes no sense.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?


Nope. Mine is delivering like it should.

However the Dorado air spring the Mattoc uses is very sensitive to the air valve which connects the two chambers being set correctly. If it's not quite right you could have too much trapped air in the negative side which will lower the fork and reduce travel.

I have seen opposite problem on a Dorado with trapped positive air making the fork oversprung and harsh.

It's an easy fix, literally a turn off an Allen key once you're inside.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Dougal, which Mattoc model do you have?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

There is a simple check you can visually do on lower air valve.
Make sure it's as shown in this LINK

Some other servicing tips there too 

Scar


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> Dougal, which Mattoc model do you have?


Mattoc Pro, set to 26" and 160mm.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

My Mattoc Expert is working fine, and it's also 26" 160mm.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?


Mine is fine, I recently used 140 out of 140mm in a big g-out. As I've stated before, my fork is set to 150mm but the effective travel (measured on the air spring) is 140.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Nope. Mine is delivering like it should.
> 
> However the Dorado air spring the Mattoc uses is very sensitive to the air valve which connects the two chambers being set correctly. If it's not quite right you could have too much trapped air in the negative side which will lower the fork and reduce travel.
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate on the easy fix for us?

I've had no issues with mine thus far. They are only 1 ride old though.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Can you elaborate on the easy fix for us?
> 
> I've had no issues with mine thus far. They are only 1 ride old though.


The poppet valve between the two air chambers is adjusted by an Allen key up inside it. It also changes protrusion of the valve rod you can see under the air cap.

If this valve is adjusted incorrectly then you'll get air either trapped in one chamber or leaking out of one chamber.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks. Is there any info out there as to what the exact position of the poppet valve should be?

I have got just over 160mm of stanchion exposed (from wiper to bottom of lowest point of the crown) on my 26" model set to 160mm. I've bottomed it out and it appears to only have around 155mm of actual travel. From what I've read this is normal?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*links*



rhys.l said:


> Thanks. Is there any info out there as to what the exact position of the poppet valve should be?
> 
> I have got just over 160mm of stanchion exposed (from wiper to bottom of lowest point of the crown) on my 26" model set to 160mm. I've bottomed it out and it appears to only have around 155mm of actual travel. From what I've read this is normal?


I already did about 4 replies up...... 



> There is a simple check you can visually do on lower air valve.
> Make sure it's as shown in this LINK
> 
> Some other servicing tips there too
> ...


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Champion. Thanks for the guidance guys! 

I wonder if it's still a luck of the draw thing or if Manitou have fixed this for 2015. My poppet position from factory is fine.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Champion. Thanks for the guidance guys!
> 
> I wonder if it's still a luck of the draw thing or if Manitou have fixed this for 2015. My poppet position from factory is fine.


Honestly they can be difficult to setup initially. But if they are known to have a problem due to the rod protruding in either direction it is easy to fix that.

You can set one up where it should be good and find a customer has a shock pump that doesn't depress the rod far enough.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Okay fair enough.

Mine actually is suffering from the travel loss issue. I noticed it mid ride, and it wasn't just obvious from the lack of stanchion protruding. The fork started feeling quite strange and inconsistent. 

I measured the protrusion of my poppet valve and it is sticking out 1.5-2mm. I assumed (based on the pink bike link) that the main issue arises when the poppet is actually recessed relative to the end of the valve. Is this not the case? Dougal you seem to indicate this above (the rod protruding in either direction)?

I'll pull the air spring apart anyway and set it to 1mm. Hopefully that will fix the problem.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Okay fair enough.
> 
> Mine actually is suffering from the travel loss issue. I noticed it mid ride, and it wasn't just obvious from the lack of stanchion protruding. The fork started feeling quite strange and inconsistent.
> 
> ...


I measured the rod protrusion on mine today, exactly 1mm.

BTW, if anyone is feeling like travel is a bit short, make sure the fork is fully extended when a pump is connected. These essentially lock onto the travel they're at when the pump is released.

I got 150mm even out of mine today, I went down to 45psi and up in damping. Forgot to check the HBO after others were riding it around turning the knobs.

5 months old now. Almost time for a service.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Some things that I have discovered:
1) I have found out that some shock pumps do not like to work well with my Mattoc. I now use a "0" loss pump.
2) When I check the air pressure I have my bike upside down and stand on the grips while pulling up on the front wheel to make shure I have all of my travel.
3) At one point I would loose 10 - 15mm of travel after a coupple of rides. This was because of the oil in the air spring, Manitou service tec said to use a light suspension greese instead of the oil, this has done the trick to not loose my travel while riding. (this was not due to the poppet valve).
4) Just because; I thought that I would play around with the volume in the air spring, I picked up some Revelation bottemless tokkens, used hot glue to add the first one to the air cap (there is a grove in the air cap to keep things in place) then can add or subtract them as needeed. I am now using 3 tokens and love the way the fork is now working.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal, do you think (I said think dont want to jeopardize an NDA) that Manitou will release a 29er version of the Mattoc?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

material guy said:


> 1) I have found out that some shock pumps do not like to work well with my Mattoc. I now use a "0" loss pump.
> 
> 4) Just because; I thought that I would play around with the volume in the air spring, I picked up some Revelation bottemless tokkens, used hot glue to add the first one to the air cap (there is a grove in the air cap to keep things in place) then can add or subtract them as needeed. I am now using 3 tokens and love the way the fork is now working.


Which specific pump are you using?

And did you try adjusting the HBO before using air tokens?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Dougal, do you think (I said think dont want to jeopardize an NDA) that Manitou will release a 29er version of the Mattoc?


Sorry I've got no idea. The 29 inch all mountain segment seems to be a shrinking one though.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

ColinL said:


> Which specific pump are you using?
> 
> And did you try adjusting the HBO before using air tokens?


I use an SKS shock pump.
Yes I played around with the HBO, just wanted to fiddle around with the tokens for kicks. Found that I could run about 5psi less so I had more sensitivity at the top of the stroke but still have great mid support.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> I use an SKS shock pump.
> Yes I played around with the HBO, just wanted to fiddle around with the tokens for kicks. Found that I could run about 5psi less so I had more sensitivity at the top of the stroke but still have great mid support.


Have you tried running more compression damping instead of more spring progression?

I much prefer these as linear as possible. A more progressive spring stores and returns too much energy deeper in the travel which makes the fork kick. 
As well as using less mid stroke which makes the fork harsher.

Normally a more progressive spring is of value when the rider rides over small bumps on the way off the cliff.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Have you tried running more compression damping instead of more spring progression?
> 
> I much prefer these as linear as possible. A more progressive spring stores and returns too much energy deeper in the travel which makes the fork kick.
> As well as using less mid stroke which makes the fork harsher.
> ...


Yes I did try to add more compression and the fork was not quite there for me.
Had a Pike to start where we did not get along, felt like IT kicked compared to the Mattoc.
I do not ride off of cliffs, and am about 190 lbs geared up. 
The Mattoc is on a Sight and set to 150mm with a crash and bash riding style.
The fork does not kick at all with the more progressive spring. The Relevation tokens are quite small compared to the Pikes tokens which I am sure you are aware of so the amount of change is not great but noticeable.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

I wonder if the Pike has a digressive (preloaded) rebound stack like they are using in their monarch shocks? That wouldn't play as well with a progressive spring, like Dougal mentioned. I'm guessing the Mattoc has a linear rebound stack.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> Yes I did try to add more compression and the fork was not quite there for me.
> Had a Pike to start where we did not get along, felt like IT kicked compared to the Mattoc.
> I do not ride off of cliffs, and am about 190 lbs geared up.
> The Mattoc is on a Sight and set to 150mm with a crash and bash riding style.
> The fork does not kick at all with the more progressive spring. The Relevation tokens are quite small compared to the Pikes tokens which I am sure you are aware of so the amount of change is not great but noticeable.


The Pike RC has a really heavy and preloaded compression shim stack. I've been able to soften up a mates one enough to get full travel. But it will need a lot more work to feel as good as a Mattoc.
The RTC3 is a different compression damper and I haven't been into one yet.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Dougal said:


> The Pike RC has a really heavy and preloaded compression shim stack. I've been able to soften up a mates one enough to get full travel. But it will need a lot more work to feel as good as a Mattoc.
> The RTC3 is a different compression damper and I haven't been into one yet.


It was the RTC3 that I had, tried it at 160mm and 150mm. Just could not get along with the fork. Felt that it was pushing back too much which had me too far over the front end on more that a few occasions in less than ideal situations. Not a great feeling, and not the only person who has felt that way about the Pike.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks for your help Dougal.

Update from me:

Rebuilt the fork and adjusted the poppet to 1mm out from the valve. When I rebuilt the air spring I did not pour in any oil (as mentioned above) - I simply lightly greased the appropriate o rings with slick honey/slickoleum. This should solve the oil migration issue in the pos and negative chambers. 

After one hard ride the forks are holding their travel so I'm hopeful that problem is now fixed.

Regarding setup, I'm running around 40psi, with 5 clicks of HSC, 1.5 clicks of LSC and HBO all the way off. I'm finding gives me a nice linear sort of fork, with really good mid stroke support and good small bump sensitivity. Loving them!


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

rhys.l said:


> Thanks for your help Dougal.
> 
> Update from me:
> 
> ...


Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

rideitall said:


> Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.


I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?


I was running 45psi in an Enduro race last weekend and probably 75kg geared up. I was getting tired and needed the fork to suck up more of the roots and rocks. So it did!


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Hoping someone on this forum will have some insight into my problem - Manitou don't have a particularly large footprint here in the UK so haven't as of yet managed to contact (asides from through Hayes, though they haven't yet responded) them directly.
Bought a Mattoc expert a few weeks ago, although due to its 15mm axle configuration ended up having to wait a few weeks for an Easton 15mm axle converter which (finally!) arrived 3-4 days ago. 
Unfortunately however the fork feels ridiculously soft, with sag measured at around 35% at recommended air pressure and has virtually zero mid-stroke support (am able, with quite minimal effort to cycle the fork through around 120mm of its travel before it stiffens up quite considerably). The poppet valve thingy is protruding 1mm as recommended (prior to adjusting it sat at around a 2mm protrusion) which has led me to conjecture that perhaps there's insufficient oil in the damping cylinder/leg? Any suggestions would be very welcome - as you may have guessed I'm not particularly clued up on suspension matters!


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

Shock pump gauges are crap. Set air pressure to whatever gives you 20-25% sag.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

djjohnr said:


> Shock pump gauges are crap. Set air pressure to whatever gives you 20-25% sag.


Agreed. Also, set your sag with your LSC and HSC set to 1.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

rideitall said:


> Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.





ColinL said:


> I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?


I'm pretty light, around 75kg geared up. My pump may not be particularly accurate.

I've tried a few different settings (including a higher psi) but if I run much more than 40 I compromise my ability to use my travel where I need it. This is with the HBO all the way off as well. I wonder if I do have too much oil in the damper or something, making them harder to bottom out.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Is anyone having problems with their hex lock axle? Mine is stiff and pretty hard to remove. I was hoping it would free up with use but there's only been a minor improvement.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> The 29 inch all mountain segment seems to be a shrinking one though.


Bikes like the Evil Following and the Trek Remedy 9.8 are expanding it again and selling out. 
A Mattoc at 130 would compete favorably against a Fox 36 51mm offset on the Evil.
This vid shows a Following leaving a prototype 27.5 Transition behind again and again.

ONE LAP - Lars Sternberg & Luke Strobel, Xanadu - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

rhys.l said:


> Is anyone having problems with their hex lock axle? Mine is stiff and pretty hard to remove. I was hoping it would free up with use but there's only been a minor improvement.


Yes, the axle on my Mattoc was very hard to remove. Rather than have the bike upside down or on a stand, I finally got the axle to release by lying the bike on its side, unlocked the axle, loosened up the adjuster nut on the hex-loc. After wiggling it around a little it finally let go. Cleaned up the axle, put a light coat of grease on it and has been good to go since then.


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## redmars (Mar 26, 2008)

A trick that works on me is to separate the end lowers with my hands once you open the lock and the the axle is easier to release then.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Mine was a little clunky to begin with, but after using the axle only a few times (maybe 3?) it has worked smoothly and easily. Pull down, 1/4 turn to the right, pull out. It's much faster than threading in the Fox QR15 I had on my last fork.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

So, the question is Pro or Expert.
70.00 dollar difference.

Besides the weight, any reason to go Pro?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mykel said:


> So, the question is Pro or Expert.
> 70.00 dollar difference.
> 
> Besides the weight, any reason to go Pro?


Pro has 9 steps of rebound adjustment, Expert has 5. I do not know if the range is the same. I do know that I run my expert 1 click in from full fast.

LSC, HSC and HBO are the same.

The difference was much more than $70 when I bought my Expert in December 2014. I paid $590 + $20 shipping from CRC, and I couldn't find the Pro anywhere for less than $800.

But now it looks like the Pro is $580-590. I'd jump on that!


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Another two questions if I may...

What is the deal with the lost travel?
Have read about it in a couple of places.

Is this normal, and is it fixable... Don't know if I want a 150mm travel fork that only gets 135-140mm.
The other question is how does it do under a heavier rider - about 220 geared up?

Thank-you

michael


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Looks like the issue is related to the poppet not protruding from the valve enough (in some cases the valve not getting depressed enough to properly increase the PSI). That is just my take from it and hopefully Manitou is in the process of fixing with the 2015 models.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

mykel said:


> Another two questions if I may...
> 
> What is the deal with the lost travel?
> Have read about it in a couple of places.
> ...


Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.
> 
> Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel


Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.


Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

I don't really know how Fox does it, they can release total crap, and people keep buying...
While the new 36 sounds like a great fork, and Fox has supposedly fixed the bushing issues, it is still over a G-note.
Either the spring sucks, or the damper has issues, they do get it right eventually, but the public seems to do a lot of product testing for them.
Then Fox learns what it should have done, then offers its testers the upgrade for a nominal fee...
The thing that gets me is they have been doing this for years, but for some reason never seem to take the hit.

As for a new product needing a bit of love, I agree, we should not have to do anything but cut steerer, install and ride.
However history has shown us that every mfg seems to have a problem getting the correct amounts of fluids/lubricants in their thousand dollar products....then when it all goes pear shaped, it is not their fault but the customer for whatever reason, but we all know if the product was as it says on the tin, then most of the problems would not exist.

I don't really have a huge problem sorting the air-valve, travel adjust spacers and even some finangled air tokens if required as long as the potential is there. It is pretty much SOP now. If I don't loose small bump with the proper air pressure, it does not dive excessively, and can take some gnar without loosing its sh!t then I'm good - even with - 5 mm.

Probably going to order a black 26 160 Pro from CRC for 7 bills canadian in the next couple of days - unless something new comes up or I stumble upon a killer deal.

michael


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.
> 
> Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel





Vespasianus said:


> Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.


Hey guys, this is not a widespread issue that requires a fix for all forks. It's adjustment required for some forks. It can also be a problem caused by the pump used not depressing the rod.

As for travel. I'm getting a hair over 150mm from my 160mm Mattoc. I haven't yet been into the fork to check bottom-out bumper height. But normally full travel requires the bumpers to be pretty much flattened.
With the HBO my fork feels like it's only just kissing the bumpers and the last bit of travel is there for the moments you think you're going to die.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

ColinL said:


> Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.


I think the problem is that Fox can get away with it and Manitou can't. I love how Fox completely changed their compression rates and now everyone is saying the original setting was very harsh and now it is like butter. Yet, 6 months ago, it was butter. I am more convinced than ever that Fox makes junk and pays people to review their product.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

My Mattoc Pro uses full travel and has been flawless.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

Agreed to above. My Mattoc Pro has been great. I have the HBO at 2 and it does what it should. Might even be able to back it out to 1, either that or leave at 2 and drop air pressure a little bit. I also leave both compression adjusters at 1 or 2, so I might be using the air spring more than I need, that said it works great.

Might be able to get even better small bump compliant by dropping the air pressure a touch and then boosting up compression and/or HBO.

Not certain on any travel loss as I have never measured, but was advised that you can essentially reduce the travel by compressing the fork while pump is attached. The reverse is also true that you can reset the travel by fully extending the fork while pump is attached. 

As I understand it, if / when a travel adjust system comes out, it will essentially work the same way.

Today I have a brand new 2015 Fox 36 Talas arriving and hope to get it on the bike tonight, then get a couple of rides on it this weekend. I am not going to sell my Mattoc, it is just the gear junkie in my wanting to see how the two forks compare. 

Some have complained about the Mattoc, but from what I read on the 2015 Fox 36 forum, the more expensive Fox 36 fork needs a 2 cent ziptie to equalize pressure between the pos/neg chambers. As much as technology has improved some things still have us going ... wtf.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will _definitely_ bottom out my shock.

My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
HSC - always 1/5
HBO - 1/5
Rebound 2/5

The Mattoc tuning guide is a little confusing because it considers max damping to be zero, and backing it off counts up: 0 is fully closed and 4 is fully open for HBO, as an example. That's fine-- but usually on MTBR people are talking the other direction, clicks up from open.

I would prefer a heavier rider comment with their experience, but I _think_ based on my settings (low air pressure and nearly open damping) that the fork would do quite well for someone in the 220-250 pound range.

Also, I still haven't installed my MILO. I think it would be great for enduro racing, but for trail riding, there is no need to crank up the LSC on the fly. The fork does really, really well under heavy braking and climbing. It doesn't bob much (at least at 25% sag) and the brake dive is way less than the last fork I used, which admittedly was nowhere near this caliber - it was a Float 32 120 RLC. On that fork, if you dialed in enough LSC to resist brake dive, small bump performance went to ****.


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

ColinL said:


> I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will _definitely_ bottom out my shock.
> 
> My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)
> 
> ...


I'm roughly the same weight as you (170-180lbs wet depending on the time of year, + 10lbs in gear). I run 25% sag up front and 30% in the rear measured DH style (ie in the standing attack position). 127mm of rear travel and 140mm front. Your setup would be a bit soft for me. I run HBO all the way in, LSC 2 clicks out from closed, and HSC 2 clicks out from closed. I don't remember my exact LSR setting but it's closer to closed then open to keep pressure on the HSR stack.

What frame/shock combo are you running? I have a Yeti SB75 with a Float CTD. The TPC+ damper in the Mattoc is a traditional speed sensitive shimmed damper, while the Float CTD uses a position sensitive Boost Valve. A high velocity impact that would be handled immediately by the high speed compression circuit in the Mattoc wont reach the same damping resistance until later in the travel in the Float CTD due to it being a position sensitive damper rather then a speed sensitive damper. My preferred solution to the imbalance is to run a shock using a traditional shimmed setup.


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## rideitall (Dec 15, 2005)

ColinL said:


> ... My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)
> 
> Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
> LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
> ...


Colin, I am similar in weight 190 before gear and like you would like to get down to 175. Wish us well in that. However, I run considerably more air pressure to setup my fork. Likely only running about 20% sag. I use air pressure and sag more a guideline, in the end I go with how the fork feels on both the smaller chatter and bigger bumps.

I wonder if the travel reduction plays a part in the air pressure required to get a certain amount of sag.

I was running around 80psi in my Mattoc before it was serviced. (Local Manitou rep saw me with the fork and said to bring it in. It only had a few rides on it but what the heck, free fork service, I am in)

After the service he had indicated I would likely use more air pressure to get the same sag. I might be able to drop 5 PSI as i rarely get within an inch of bottom out.

The other consideration is the trails we ride. I am in Vancouver and use the bike for all my mtn biking, which in includes North Shore, Squamish and Vancouver Island. I don't want to have my fork too soft when hitting steep and rough trails.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Glad to hear there are people out there who have had a flawless Mattoc from the start. However, I still think my comments are fair based on my experiences and a number of similar issues I have read about during my forum browsing. I'm not bagging out the Mattoc at all, infact I love mine and would have nothing else. 

I've felt what I believed was the bottom of my fork (running into gutters at low pressure) and I measured it at 155mm. I believe someone on this forum or another managed to measure internally the actual travel and came out with a number 5-10mm short of quoted travel.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

ColinL said:


> You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.


100% agreed. I really don't understand how you could feel the need for bottomless tokens when 1) You have an air sprung fork that is naturally going to be quite progressive at the end of stroke and 2) You have hydraulic bottom out adjustment.


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.

I haven't felt the need for air tokens with the Mattoc yet, however I may in the future depending on the terrain (I haven't had the fork all that long).


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Hello all,
Just to recap, I added the tokens to my Mattoc just for kicks at the start. I had the tokens from my wifes Relevation so for the hell of it I thought that I would try it and see what happens. At 3 tokens this seemed to be my sweet spot with the fork and by chance my bike feels to be well balanced front to rear.
I have the fork on a Sight with an Inline that has 1.5 volume spacers installed.
This set up works for me and my riding style, it might suck for some one else but I don't lend out my bike for any one to feel how "bad" my bike rides.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

djjohnr said:


> Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.


Adding air alone allows you to increase support throughout the stroke, using the air spring curve that Manitou designed. Then you click in the hydraulic bottom out adjustment if you're bottoming out the fork, or leave it on the lightest setting if you aren't.

The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.

Is it good or bad to do so? Depends on if you think they did a good job to start with.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Regarding my air pressure being lower than others my riding weight - probably my shock pump is not that accurate and is reading low. That would be the easiest explanation.

Another explanation could be that my fork has more stiction than others. Hopefully that's not it...


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

ColinL said:


> The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.


Nail on the head.
A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
HBO does this perfectly on it's own.

So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.

Manitou have done an excellent job at making a fork simple, and an outstanding damper that makes it all shine.

Personally I wish they'd put the Air valve at the top, and just put an "equalise" button on the footnut to equalise the negative chamber. This would also give the ability to "tune" the negative pressure on its own.

It's just such a shame that the simple job of putting it together in a factory seems to have not identified the critical flaws of improperly set poppet valves, and having too much oil in the air chamber.

Scar


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

scar4me said:


> Nail on the head.
> A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
> Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
> HBO does this perfectly on it's own.
> ...


- I think what you're trying to say is the return force is increased and requires more high speed rebound damping. That's true, but the same thing applies if you add more air to the shock. The rebound stack is really only tuned for a single value, probably a ~160lb rider with the low speed rebound needle set to the middle of it's range. So as soon as you deviate from that it's a moot point anyway.

- Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

That is what I was getting at, but the rebound shimstack has an effective working range for different rider weights\air spring pressures causing different shaft velocities. Adding volume spacers may well take you to the upper edge of those velocities if recovering from a big impact, so a slight adjustment of the rebound stack would do well to compensate.



djjohnr said:


> - Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.


I can understand why users may want to add them, as the Mattoc may well make a bike's suspension front\rear balance un-even (like I've found). 
I had even looked into adding spacers, but ended up replacing my rear shock anyway.

At the end of the day it's a suspension platform that can be tuned to exactly how you want if you've got the time\patience or know how.
Adjusting shimstacks is definitely not what I'd call a standard user adjustment by any means 

Scar


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

scar4me said:


> Nail on the head.
> 
> So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.
> 
> Scar


My fork does not buck with the volume spacers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

djjohnr said:


> - I think what you're trying to say is the return force is increased and requires more high speed rebound damping. That's true, but the same thing applies if you add more air to the shock. The rebound stack is really only tuned for a single value, probably a ~160lb rider with the low speed rebound needle set to the middle of it's range. So as soon as you deviate from that it's a moot point anyway.
> 
> - Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.


Suspension is intended to work within a range of natural frequencies. Get a heavier rider with more pressure vs a lighter rider with less pressure and the frequency that the whole shebang wants to bounce up and down at is pretty much the same.

Which is how one well set rebound stack can work well for a whole range of riders.

But yes, making the spring more progressive increases the rebound force a lot more deeper in the stroke. So you get higher return speeds and likely need to run more rebound damping to account for that.



material guy said:


> My fork does not buck with the volume spacers.


It will be rebounding faster from deeper in the stroke. Unless you've slowed the rebound which means it'll be rebounding slower at the top of the stroke.

What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.

I did have balance issues trying to get my Mattoc to match the Float R on the back of my test bike. The issue was the Float had a serious platform built into the damper. Which I didn't like.
I removed the platform, but then the Float didn't have enough compression damping. At that point I just ordered a McLeod. I probably could have found balance after revalving the Float 1 or 2 more times.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.

I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
Just wondering of others saying that if the spring curve is made right then you do not need volume spacers, so I guess that Fox and Rock Shox engineers are hacks cause they supply volume with there forks? 
OR is it another tuning option that you as an individual can use to adjust the fork to work for your own tastes????
What may work for me might not work for you. Just a thought.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
> The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
> Just wondering of others saying that if the spring curve is made right then you do not need volume spacers, so I guess that Fox and Rock Shox engineers are hacks cause they supply volume with there forks?
> OR is it another tuning option that you as an individual can use to adjust the fork to work for your own tastes????
> What may work for me might not work for you. Just a thought.


Regarding mid-stroke support. For the same bottom-out force an air spring with reduced volume has a softer/weaker mid-stroke.
If you have the same starting air pressure you'll get a firmer mid-stroke, but a much firmer end-stroke.

Fox and Rockshox don't have compression dampers in the same league as Manitou.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression. 

I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression.
> 
> I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.


Sure you don't have those dials around the other way?

I've found myself running two different setups.
The first for normal riding where I've got HSC 2 clicks in and LSC 1 click in.
The second for slower speed riding (mostly under 30km/h) which had a lot of roots but no real bit impacts to take out. I went with less air pressure and took LSC up to 3 clicks.

The extra LSC keeps the fork up with the lower air pressure. But the lower air pressure in combination with the same HSC lets it eat roots deeper into the travel.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Sure you don't have those dials around the other way?


I don't, but I realise my suspension settings are pretty left field in this company.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

rhys.l said:


> If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression.
> 
> I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.


Horses for courses  
Everyones got their own preferneces and thats why the adjusters are there

There are benefits and drawbacks for any setup you choose.
Your setup above will be excellent for smaller sharp impacts not gobbling your travel, but likely tend to dive when put into a low speed g-out scenario or when pumping terrain.
This is the scenario where if you like your setup you might be adding volume spacers to reduce the low-speed dive. (which is what Dougal's setup was trygin to avoid with the added LSC)

The transfer between high and low speed is smooth due to the way the stack works alongside the low speed orifice, and of course pre-loading is preloading the entire stack, so will increase both high and mid (depending on exactly which shimface(s) in the stack it is being applied).
Although the increase in mid will be lower due to the mid being a combination of the low speed circuit and slight movement in the shimstack.
The high speed requires much greater movement of the stack which the pre-load has a much bigger impact on.
Calling it high and low speed adjustment is because that is the main impact of each, the adjustments are not totally isolated.

Scar


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

material guy said:


> What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.
> 
> I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
> The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
> ...


Dude, I applaud you. I say do what you need to do to make the fork feel right for you.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Fox and Rockshox don't have compression dampers in the same league as Manitou.


They also don't have hydraulic bottom out, so you MUST have the option to decrease the air spring volume in order to control bottom-out. MRP has a novel implementation of that concept on their Stage fork (Ramp Control).

Regarding being happy with a fork with tokens, or with atypical damping adjustment:
Of course, that's perfectly fine. It's your fork and your bike. Individual preferences and riding style dictate your setup. There are some pro bikes with unusual setups, compared to the majority of the competitors, yet those riders go out and win.

However if you haven't tried removing the tokens and using the HBO instead, you may be doing yourself a disservice.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

ColinL said:


> However if you haven't tried removing the tokens and using the HBO instead, you may be doing yourself a disservice.


I was riding the Mattoc for > than 6 months before trying out the volume spacers. Yes I played around with the HBO and as you know it only works for the last inch or so.
Like I keep saying, I tried it out for kicks because I could, and as it turned out I liked it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

djjohnr said:


> What frame/shock combo are you running? I have a Yeti SB75 with a Float CTD. The TPC+ damper in the Mattoc is a traditional speed sensitive shimmed damper, while the Float CTD uses a position sensitive Boost Valve. A high velocity impact that would be handled immediately by the high speed compression circuit in the Mattoc wont reach the same damping resistance until later in the travel in the Float CTD due to it being a position sensitive damper rather then a speed sensitive damper. My preferred solution to the imbalance is to run a shock using a traditional shimmed setup.


john, I missed this reply and the questions you were asking me. sorry about that!

I ride a Santa Cruz Blur TR. 125mm rear travel, 140mm fork now. (I rode my Mattoc at 160mm for about 20 hours, maybe 30. It actually turned and climbed fine, but balancing the front and rear suspension was impossible.)

I've got a Float CTD Trail Adjust shock with the stock damper, and I just put a Vorsprung Corset air can on it. I'm pretty happy with it now but had been considering a Monarch RT3. The Corset basically is a debonair can for Fox shocks, and in 2016 Fox will have their own.

I also forgot to mention that so I've only been able to ride my Mattoc on slower technical trails, and faster but smoother XC trails. The fast chunky stuff is 1.5 - 2 hrs away but I'll be going there in April and May. It could be that my setup is too soft for a rough, fast trail and I'll find out.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Can someone here (Dougal?) explain to me how the MC2 damper works?

From what I've read, when the damper oil is changed, it gets filled all the way to the top of the leg. So no air gap. Does this mean the foam unit is the compensation mechanism, and does it have air chambers or something internally that allow it to deform and take up the volume displaced by the shaft?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

And to piggyback into this, if anyone has done a simple disassemble of the damper and oil change do you have info & pics? 

Doing the oil change in the dorado is super easy because it's open bath and easy to disassemble but the Mattoc is a Little more involved, yeah? It would be nice to have a bit of a guide before I tear into it myself.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

rhys.l said:


> Can someone here (Dougal?) explain to me how the MC2 damper works?
> 
> From what I've read, when the damper oil is changed, it gets filled all the way to the top of the leg. So no air gap. Does this mean the foam unit is the compensation mechanism, and does it have air chambers or something internally that allow it to deform and take up the volume displaced by the shaft?


Exactly that.
closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
Then turn upright, fill up, cycle the rebound till no bubbles, then top up.
Get hold of manitou Europe to confirm Oil height though.

Scar


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

scar4me said:


> Exactly that.
> closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
> About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
> Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
> ...


Manitou tec told me the oil height is 77mm from top of crown after all the air is bled out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> Manitou tec told me the oil height is 77mm from top of crown after all the air is bled out.


Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.

Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
Air chamber lube is semi-bath and 7cc in the top of the air leg.

I'll see if I get time to service mine this week.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

scar4me said:


> Exactly that.
> closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
> About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
> Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
> ...


Thanks for the info


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.
> 
> Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
> Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
> ...


Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
From manitou tech.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
> From manitou tech.


I will see how much oil I have in the negative side when I get it apart. I much prefer using oil rather than grease to lubricate, but I agree that too much can be a problem.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

I found roughly equal amounts of oil in the pos and neg chambers, and that was only after something like 3 rides on the fork.

Agree with material guy - since removing oil from the air spring (and adjusting the poppet) my fork has had a more consistent feel and no more travel loss problems.

What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?


Grease spreads away from the seals, then the seal wears and air leaks. It's not a huge problem, just grease requires more maintenance.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Grease spreads away from the seals, then the seal wears and air leaks. It's not a huge problem, just grease requires more maintenance.


Good to know.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Mattoc Pro ordered for my Knolly Endorphin build.
Thank-you all.
Will have to do a little teardown when i receive it to check it over. SOP


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

material guy said:


> Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
> From manitou tech.





rhys.l said:


> I found roughly equal amounts of oil in the pos and neg chambers, and that was only after something like 3 rides on the fork.
> 
> Agree with material guy - since removing oil from the air spring (and adjusting the poppet) my fork has had a more consistent feel and no more travel loss problems.
> 
> What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?


Very interesting.

I ran a 26" Mattoc at 160mm on a Blur TR for about 40-50 hours before lowering the travel. (This bike normally uses a 130-140mm Fox 34.) I had no problems with loss of travel.

When I tore it down to install the travel spacers, it seemed as if the fork had roughly the right amount of semi-bath in the legs and on top of the air piston, but I didn't collect and measure it.

I did the documented Manitou service including 7ml semi-bath oil on top of the air piston. I used their M-prep grease on the air piston and the Motorex semi-bath oil. No problems so far with another 20 hours on 140mm travel.

I'm curious - were you guys also losing air pressure in the fork? It seems to me that if oil is migrating past the air piston seal, surely air would as well.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Also:

isn't the air spring volume (and thus spring rate) considerably different if you have nothing at all on top of the air piston?


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

ColinL said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I ran a 26" Mattoc at 160mm on a Blur TR for about 40-50 hours before lowering the travel. (This bike normally uses a 130-140mm Fox 34.) I had no problems with loss of travel.
> 
> ...


There was no loss in air pressure, air from the pos chamber would get into the neg chamber to cause the fork to loose travel from the extra air volume in the neg chamber.
Before adding the grease and less oil I would have to hook up the shock pump, stand on the bars and pull up on the front wheel to return full travel at least once or twice a week.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

material guy said:


> There was no loss in air pressure, air from the pos chamber would get into the neg chamber to cause the fork to loose travel from the extra air volume in the neg chamber.
> Before adding the grease and less oil I would have to hook up the shock pump, stand on the bars and pull up on the front wheel to return full travel at least once or twice a week.


So, yes, both air and oil was escaping from on top of your piston and migrating below it to the negative air side.

I'm really having trouble understanding the cause and effect here. I don't think it would be the oil on top of the piston. It's the sealing of the piston-- either the seals were bad or they were not greased, which caused your air and oil to leak down. Did you replace the air piston seals?

Now that your fork is holding air, do you think there is any reason why it wouldn't also hold oil on top of the piston?


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

ColinL said:


> So, yes, both air and oil was escaping from on top of your piston and migrating below it to the negative air side.
> 
> I'm really having trouble understanding the cause and effect here. I don't think it would be the oil on top of the piston. It's the sealing of the piston-- either the seals were bad or they were not greased, which caused your air and oil to leak down. Did you replace the air piston seals?
> 
> Now that your fork is holding air, do you think there is any reason why it wouldn't also hold oil on top of the piston?


I did not replace any seals. As to why the air traveled with the oil before and not now with almost no oil???? 
Not a clue as to why, just know it worked...Oil too thin?...Grease thicker?...Use heavier oil?


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## djjohnr (Sep 9, 2013)

ColinL said:


> I've got a Float CTD Trail Adjust shock with the stock damper


That's likely why you have an imbalance. Boost Valve shocks are notorious for blowing through their travel until they hit the end travel compression damping provided by the valve. If you convert it/replace it with a speed sensitive shock you can better match the Mattoc.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

material guy said:


> I did not replace any seals. As to why the air traveled with the oil before and not now with almost no oil????
> Not a clue as to why, just know it worked...Oil too thin?...Grease thicker?...Use heavier oil?


I think that you have done a proper job of servicing your fork and that it is why it is sealing now.

The simplest explanation for why it was leaking originally, in my opinion, is a poor or non-existent application of grease on the piston seal when it was assembled.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.
> 
> Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
> Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
> ...


Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?

Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.

By the way, when I opened the fork a couple of months ago all the oil in the air chamber migrated in the lowers, there was just a small amount in the negative chamber. It didn't suffered any travel drop, though.


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## kand (Feb 4, 2005)

ColinL said:


> Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.


Fox haven't got away with it. They have lost market share here in the antipodes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

caste said:


> Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?
> 
> Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.


I don't have official Cst data for the Motorex. I really should ask since I've got 420 litres of the stuff coming.
What my guys do is run comparative tests between all the fork oils for reference purposes. We haven't calibrated or converted back to Cst. I haven't yet had Motul oil to compare.

Motorex 5wt is a shade thicker than the stuff I drained from a 2011 RS Sektor, a shade thicker than the older Maxima 5wt.

Motorex 7.5wt is almost bang on Fox 10wt.

Regarding oil heights.
Manitou have confirmed 77mm for the Pro. But 80mm for the Expert.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I don't have official Cst data for the Motorex. I really should ask since I've got 420 litres of the stuff coming.
> What my guys do is run comparative tests between all the fork oils for reference purposes. We haven't calibrated or converted back to Cst. I haven't yet had Motul oil to compare.
> 
> Motorex 5wt is a shade thicker than the stuff I drained from a 2011 RS Sektor, a shade thicker than the older Maxima 5wt.
> ...


Ok thanks, I'll wait a bit and eventually get the Motorex if it will still not feel right.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

caste said:


> Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?
> 
> Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.
> 
> By the way, when I opened the fork a couple of months ago all the oil in the air chamber migrated in the lowers, there was just a small amount in the negative chamber. It didn't suffered any travel drop, though.


You know, that Pete Verdone site has been up for years - at least 10 but maybe more. I wonder how accurate it now is and how much oils have changed over the years.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> You know, that Pete Verdone site has been up for years - at least 10 but maybe more. I wonder how accurate it now is and how much oils have changed over the years.


I doubt the Motorex semi-bath oil has changed since it's actually 5w40 motor oil.

However I agree about the age & content of Peter's site Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki

It says this about the Manitou semi-bath oil:
"Manitou forks use, for lubrication, Motorex Semi-Bath Fork Oil, 5W40 from Motorex of Switzerland. This is actually Motorex Motor Oil Power Synt 4T SAE 5W40, a synthetic motor oil. This oil is rated at 90.9 [email protected]/14.6 [email protected]/VI 169. This is some serious pancake syrup. This oil is not widely available, but can be ordered at most motorcycle dealers through K&L Supply Co. (PN# 35-3911). Similar oils do not really exist as suspension oils."

And then it goes on to list 3 oils that are not that close. Yet in his table above, there are oils closer to it than the ones he lists - Torco Synthetic RTF and Silkolene Pro RSF 15wt.

I found the Motorex semi-bath oil quite easily online through various sources. I think I actually bought it from Amazon but it is out there, no problem.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

That's really close to fox 20wt gold [email protected] I'm using that now in my mattoc with good results. Need to see if damper and/or air spring will ingest the splash oil like it did on my revelation when using the fox gold.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

ColinL said:


> I doubt the Motorex semi-bath oil has changed since it's actually 5w40 motor oil.
> 
> However I agree about the age & content of Peter's site Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki
> 
> ...


I was actually talking about damper oil. I was not 100% sure about actual viscosity because I knew that the oil chart is old and Motorex gives no information. It shouldn't have changed much, but who knows.. Motul, for example, went from 22.3 to 24 (which is nothing).

For lowers oil is less crucial, I could get Motorex Semi-Bath but I chose Supergliss 100k for lowers and Fox Blue for air spring.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

caste said:


> I was actually talking about damper oil. I was not 100% sure about actual viscosity because I knew that the oil chart is old and Motorex gives no information. It shouldn't have changed much, but who knows.. Motul, for example, went from 22.3 to 24 (which is nothing).
> 
> For lowers oil is less crucial, I could get Motorex Semi-Bath but I chose Supergliss 100k for lowers and Fox Blue for air spring.


OOoohh.

I'm going for another cup of coffee now. That makes perfect sense.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

I've been using Maximum RSF 7w as a substitute for Motorex 5w in abs+ forks with good results.

As for the air/oil leaking past the piston, oil will most definitely migrate past the seal unless its a cup style (Fox for example uses cup seal as a scraper on the neg side of the air piston). Any rounded lip seal with light preload used in a dynamic application (pretty much any fork/shock air piston) will allow oil to migrate but not air. Fox/RS air shocks are a perfect example that you can literally see the oil migration with use. It has to do with the ability of the seal to scrape the oil film off the cylinder wall as is moves.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

So have the Pro up and running on my Son's 5 spot. I ended up pulling it apart and dropping the travel to 150mm in order to maintain the geometry and keep the bar height low enough (he is 5'2" and 120 pounds). The travel change is easy following the instructions, the hardest part is chasing the air spring back up with a 4mm allen while trying to get it screwed back into the lower. I have a pretty thin 8mm 1/4" deep well, and even that wasn't thin enough. For the record, the Park FR-5 works fine for removing the lower. Finally, I used Redline 5w-40 in the lowers and air chamber, it has worked well for other forks as a bath oil and is sitting on my bench. 

For my son, we ended up with the settings pretty much all out:

Air Pressure- 44psi (23% sag)
Rebound- 8 (or what we would normally call one click from full open)
High Speed and Low Speed- 5 and 4 (or full open to the rest of the world)
HBO- 5 (Minimum)

In comparison to his 2012 Fox 32 140 Fit, it supports him much better in the travel (he was running trail 1 on the compression), he says it is much plusher, and he has not blown through the bottom out, showing about 20mm of remaining travel on his first few rides. By comparison, even at 20% sag on the Fox, he was regularly bottoming it hard. He does ride hard for his age and has a Vanilla 180 on his DH bike and regularly gets full travel on it with the soft spring which he is at the lower weight limit for. 

He had a chance to demo a Giant Reign Advanced 1 this weekend on the same trails he normally rides (Joaquin Miller (specifically Cinderella) for those in Northern California) and compare the Pike to the Mattoc. He said the Pike felt a little different than the Mattoc, but couldn't describe the difference, except they both felt good and way better than the Fox. Now time to get the rear shock up to par, off to Avalanche for his RP23.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Another resource for Oil viscosity

https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Regarding oil heights.
> Manitou have confirmed 77mm for the Pro. But 80mm for the Expert.


Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?

Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.

I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

rhys.l said:


> Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.


IMO it's not important whether a fork uses that last 1-2cm of travel as long as everything else works well. The only times I use up all my suspension travel are 1)full out race runs, 2)I've botched something and the fork just saved my butt from a crash, and 3)airing out sizable drops to a flat landing.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

rhys.l said:


> Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?
> 
> Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.
> 
> I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.


Just to confirm; you are measuring the "O" ring from the oil seal and not going by the "O" ring to crown height..right?
When I first got my fork I could not get it to use all the travel.
I ended up taking out 5-10cc of oil, this allowed me to use all the travel that I paid for. 
I am not the only one who has had thhis issue.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Cary said:


> So have the Pro up and running on my Son's 5 spot. I ended up pulling it apart and dropping the travel to 150mm in order to maintain the geometry and keep the bar height low enough (he is 5'2" and 120 pounds). The travel change is easy following the instructions, the hardest part is chasing the air spring back up with a 4mm allen while trying to get it screwed back into the lower. I have a pretty thin 8mm 1/4" deep well, and even that wasn't thin enough.


Cary, thanks for the report. So far, my 8 year-old is only asking for clipless pedals. A few years from now when he figures out my suspension is much better than his, that'll be an expensive day. 

I had the same problem with the 8mm thin-walled socket.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

I ground my 8mm socket down on a cheap Harbor Freight grinding wheel... Works great.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ColinL said:


> Cary, thanks for the report. So far, my 8 year-old is only asking for clipless pedals. A few years from now when he figures out my suspension is much better than his, that'll be an expensive day.
> 
> I had the same problem with the 8mm thin-walled socket.


I remember when my son was 8. A BMX bike and a 24" Specialized Hardtail that I bought used and fixed up. Then he hit 9 and discovered downhilling on Youtube. Then he discovered the dirt jumps. So now he has three bikes and keeps asking me when I am going to buy a new one, since my 5 Spot is 7 years old (2008). I tell him when he quits growing. I just did a frame swap for his trail bike because he outgrew it old one (made it slightly over 2 years, growing 6" in that time), sold his hardtail and BMX bikes and built up a jump bike for his birthday, and while his downhill bike will get him through the season, that will be outgrown by then also. His fleet:


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks for the replies guys. Fair point aerius. However, I don't want to put up with the climbing disadvantages of high bars and a slacker head angle just for the benefit of 1-2cm more travel that's used only once a year. Even if it saves my ass haha.



material guy said:


> Just to confirm; you are measuring the "O" ring from the oil seal and not going by the "O" ring to crown height..right?
> When I first got my fork I could not get it to use all the travel.
> I ended up taking out 5-10cc of oil, this allowed me to use all the travel that I paid for.
> I am not the only one who has had thhis issue.


Yep, measuring from top of wiper to o-ring.

Sooo, if introducing an air pocket into a damper that (I'm assuming) is not designed to have one helps people use travel, what does this say about the damper?

To me (and this is pure speculation), it says the forks are experiencing significant ramp up from the damper. Before I even knew about the practice of reducing the oil level, a friend of mine mentioned he thought the foam unit looked quite small, and if by damper design it is required to take up all of the volume displacement, it couldn't relaly have much 'air/volume to spare' so to speak. As I understand it, this could lead to damper ramp up. Thoughts?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Cary - way cool. No DH opportunities here in Kansas, but I do go to Colorado (Vail & Keystone) once a year for a hiking and biking vacation. Currently my son is just having fun on his BMX bike but he wants to race. Not sure how he'll be able to do that while playing competitive soccer... but I digress. Good on you to support your son's 2-wheeled adventures!

RE: damper filled to the top

Maybe I'm viewing this too simplistically, but doesn't the damper have to be filled completely with oil for the hydraulic bottom-out to function? It is not in the air spring, it's in the damper.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

I had taked 5cc of oil out from the damper side to be able to achieve full travel.
5cc is not very much, if the oil height was too high from the start there would not be enough room for the oil to displace to. I never cheked the height at the time cause I had no idea of what the propper height was.
The HBO will still be filled with oil to work even if the oil height was a LITTLE BIT low.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

You don't understand what I'm saying.

In a damper like an old Rockshox Motion Control unit, it probably wouldn't matter dropping the oil level (and introducing more air). However, in a sealed damper (like Manitou), air and oil and are meant to be kept separate.

What you've done is introduce a pocket of air where it's not designed to be. Maybe not the end of the world. What I'm interested in is what this actually means is going on behind the scenes. 

If people are struggling to use travel and introducing more air into the damper system helps, this says to me there is progression coming from the damper. I.e. in its proper state from factory (sealed, oil to the top of the leg), the closed cell foam unit isn't big enough/capable enough to take up the volume displaced without leading to ramp up/progression.

I want to be wrong about this so hoping someone can explain why.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?
> 
> Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.
> 
> I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.


If you drop all the air pressure, can you compress the fork to the bumpers relatively easily?


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

rhys.l said:


> You don't understand what I'm saying.
> 
> In a damper like an old Rockshox Motion Control unit, it probably wouldn't matter dropping the oil level (and introducing more air). However, in a sealed damper (like Manitou), air and oil and are meant to be kept separate.
> 
> ...


I do not think that you understand what I was trying to say.
What I was saying is that if the oil volume was too high to begin with you will have hydrolock. Also with the foam the air will or should make its way to the top (above the foam) keeping the air out of the oil side of things if there is any extra air space.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

I guess what I'm not understanding is how you could have excessive oil in this system. Manitou recommend filling the oil to 77mm below the top of the leg. As I understand it, once all the damper parts are inserted this pushes the oil to the very top of the leg. I.e. you couldn't get anymore oil in there even if you tried. Please correct me if I'm wrong


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> If you drop all the air pressure, can you compress the fork to the bumpers relatively easily?


I can't no. With all the air out, by hand I can only move the fork to about 2-3cm short of full travel before encountering strong resistance. If I ride it off a gutter or ledge without air I can get it to 0.5cm short of full travel (probably bottom anyway).


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

rhys.l said:


> I guess what I'm not understanding is how you could have excessive oil in this system. Manitou recommend filling the oil to 77mm below the top of the leg. As I understand it, once all the damper parts are inserted this pushes the oil to the very top of the leg. I.e. you couldn't get anymore oil in there even if you tried. Please correct me if I'm wrong


When I did an oil change of the damper, filled the oil to 77mm from the top and inserted the HBO, compression damper into the leg there was still some air in the system above the foam compensater.
If oil is added to the point that there is no air left the foam might not be enough to allow for the displaced oil. This is all that I am trying to say but going the long way around it I guess.

I wish that a Manitou tech could look at this forum and help out with issues some of us have and to correct us if we are wrong in our thinking like the Marz tech does on an other thread in this forum.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Interesting. Yes would be helpful. I've emailed them with a few questions, not sure if it'll reach its intended target though. Is everyone just using the general hayes components contact form?


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Some air in the damper cartridge wouldnt be any problem, it'll stay put above the foam compensators. Even without the foam compensators, most users wouldn't really notice a difference anyway


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The TPC/TPC+/ABS+ and MC2 dampers all need an air gap.

The foam is to allow a smaller air gap


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

rhys.l said:


> I can't no. With all the air out, by hand I can only move the fork to about 2-3cm short of full travel before encountering strong resistance. If I ride it off a gutter or ledge without air I can get it to 0.5cm short of full travel (probably bottom anyway).


THat sounds normal...


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

If that's the case, yep fair enough guys. What I was getting at is if it allows air and oil to mix (=potential aeration of the oil) this would obviously be inferior to other proper sealed damper designs which keep them totally separate (at least initially before leakage occurs). 

Can you explain why that's normal Matt? I'm sure other air forks I own/have owned have allowed me to hit the bottom out bumpers pretty easily by hand


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> If that's the case, yep fair enough guys. What I was getting at is if it allows air and oil to mix (=potential aeration of the oil) this would obviously be inferior to other proper sealed damper designs which keep them totally separate (at least initially before leakage occurs).
> 
> Can you explain why that's normal Matt? I'm sure other air forks I own/have owned have allowed me to hit the bottom out bumpers pretty easily by hand


These dampers are self-bleeding. The air works its way up to the top and out of the oil. They only aerate if there is insufficient oil inside.

Once setup with the correct oil level, they often don't need touched for 10 years. I get TPC forks that old and older coming in for service with clean and clear oil still in the damper.

As for your fork not compressing all the way by hand. I'll check mine as soon as I've cleared the decks. Boss's forks are lowest priority.

For comparison, I let the air out of a Pike RC and it took ~50kg force to fully compress the fork. Obviously they still build some pressure in the air spring when compressed if they were vented at full extension.

Compare that to major brands rear shocks with sealed dampers which suck themselves full of air in a few months. Self bleeding is better.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Okay lads. I have my Mattoc Pro apart and on the bench. Ask me anything.

This one has had almost 6 months occasional use and has been set at 160mm/26" for the entire time. It has had no problems and everything inside looks perfect.
It's a very cleverly and well designed fork. Very easy to work on.

I did find 11cc of oil inside the air spring lower chamber and this is a little cleaner/clearer than the semi-bath oil so it clearly had 11cc somewhere in the air spring from the beginning.

I lost just enough bath oil and damper oil that I couldn't get measurements to the cc or mm of height.

Travel wise, when set to 160mm the bottomout bumper (single on the air side) engages at ~154mm of compression. I was measuring ~150mm of travel using this bumper as intended which suggests I wasn't quite at full extension.

I will reassemble tomorrow so I have time to answer any questions.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Awesome. If you get the chance;

1) You measured about 154mm of travel to the bumper in the 160mm setting. What do you think the actual effective travel of the fork is? How thick is the bottom out bumper, and is it soft/reasonably compressible? Or is that all irrelevant because the HBO won't allow a hard bottom out that would compress the bumper and get more travel?

2) With the HBO adjuster all the way out, can you tell if the HBO system is still being engaged, or if its effect is basically zero? Also, does the HBO look like it could be non permanently removed/disabled if someone was that way inclined? 

3) Assuming you go with the Manitou-recommended oil level, with the fork back together and zero pressure in the air spring, can you compress the fork to the bumpers easily by hand? If not, why would this be?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Awesome. If you get the chance;
> 
> 1) You measured about 154mm of travel to the bumper in the 160mm setting. What do you think the actual effective travel of the fork is? How thick is the bottom out bumper, and is it soft/reasonably compressible? Or is that all irrelevant because the HBO won't allow a hard bottom out that would compress the bumper and get more travel?


This appears to be the same bumper I'm running in my Nixon and Travis forks. Yes I would expect to get the last 6mm out of them on a decent hit. But it's not going to be normal riding. It's usually the fork saving you from yourself at that point.
To get full travel you are overwhelming both your normal spring force and your normal damping force and still hitting hard.

I can get a hard bottomout with my HBO set open. I've been riding with it set so I use the B/O bumper but can't really feel them engaging.



rhys.l said:


> 2) With the HBO adjuster all the way out, can you tell if the HBO system is still being engaged, or if its effect is basically zero? Also, does the HBO look like it could be non permanently removed/disabled if someone was that way inclined?


I have been shown curves from HBO operation, but not complete data, which shows it always has some effect. Personally while riding HBO right open isn't enough effect, I run it halfway. So I would never need less.

But if you wanted to remove it, yes it can be done. Simply replace the HBO cone on the compression assembly with a nut.


rhys.l said:


> 3) Assuming you go with the Manitou-recommended oil level, with the fork back together and zero pressure in the air spring, can you compress the fork to the bumpers easily by hand? If not, why would this be?


With no oil in the fork and air pressure set to zero at full extension, I'm at ~50kg force to compress the fork to about the last cm. Looks like decent ramp up still exists in the air-spring and air trapped in the lowers.

This is with 4cc of oil in the air chamber and 17cc of oil in each lower leg.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I should also say.
The compression damping assembly on these is an engineering masterpiece. It's an amazing piece to fit HSC, LSC and HBO and all the required oil circuits in such a confined space.

Don't attempt to pull it apart unless you've got a completely contained work area and a spare day.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Pictures! So we don't have to 😁


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> Pictures! So we don't have to 😁


Sorry, no time for decent pictures. But they wouldn't do it justice anyway. You'd need a cut-away view to show all the different oil flows and adjuster functions.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks for the answers Dougal.

Today has been a good day. Now we've got an actual oil height from Manitou, I decided to go and check mine. It was about 60mm from the top of the leg, so too high. I removed about 7.5ml which took it down to 77mm.

Wow, what a difference. 40psi is now way too soft. With all the air out of the spring I can now easily get them to the bottom out bumpers by hand. Riding them down my driveway I can get them to ~159mm in the 160mm setting. So they aren't short on travel either.









Thanks for the help guys. I probably should have just removed some oil as suggested rather the debate the workings of the damper. However the point still stands that Manitou should have got this (and the other things) right from factory. Anyway, off to ride my bike.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

One last question - if we change the travel, do we need to revise the damper oil level?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> One last question - if we change the travel, do we need to revise the damper oil level?


I'd say no. The way this damper is designed the rebound shaft is tiny and the compression assembly uses the full stanchion ID so oil height change from travel adjust will be very minor.

Good to hear you got your oil levels sorted.

One other point. This time regarding the air valve protrusion.
My fork measures 0.25mm depressed and 1.35mm extended. It's working as it should with my shock pumps.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Hey Dougal,

Just want to clarify: youre saying full disassembly of the compression damper unit is what is difficult / time consuming? But cracking open the damper for basic service oil & oil change and height check is relatively simple?

I am technically inclined and service my Dorado all the time, however for me this never involves removing the compression or rebound damper units, just full disassembly of the air spring and seperating the stanchion from the outer on the damper side to change oil.

I've also already pulled the lowers on my mattoc once to change the splash bath and grease the seals. I was having the same travel issue as ryhs and sent it in. They said some of the slash bath had made its way into the damper so hydrolocking was limiting my travel. I wonder though if it was actually a bit overfilled from the factory.

Also, to all: I have it on good authority that Manitou will be posting a service video this week for the Mattoc covering basic servicing. So that will be helpful.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Hey Dougal,
> 
> Just want to clarify: youre saying full disassembly of the compression damper unit is what is difficult / time consuming? But cracking open the damper for basic service oil & oil change and height check is relatively simple?
> 
> ...


Yes that's correct. The compression assembly (with knobs removed) comes out in one piece for service. But it's probably 25 individual pieces which don't need taken apart.

I recommend checking the oil levels on all new forks if you suspect anything is amiss. A little bit extra isn't the end of the world but some other brands have shipped forks with insufficient/no bath oil!


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Hi guys,
long time manitou user so funny in some ways to see Dougal here still fighting the good fight, I havent had one since Sherman! Anyway I installed a mattoc last week. I can't say I fully understand it yet but I'm willing to give it some time. I find the compression circuit gives me little feel of the front end, so I'm working on the settings. 

One thing, may I please confirm the 77mm is with the fork extended or compressed. It's probably apparent once cracked open but I like having an expectation of what I should be seeing once I get there.

I've already done a basic air side disassembly upon receipt of it, incl extenting the poppet valve and removing some air chamber oil, but didnt get to the damper side.

2ndly, at the pressures I run ~65psi, it feels as if over the course of a few mins riding the feel of the fork changes, and this is supported by the fact that when I reconnect the shock pump the fork extends by 3-4mm. You can see it visibly, measure and feel the internals jerking when the pump connects. Any ideas? Is this another poppet valve adjustment?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah it's been a while here. I've been riding Manitou forks for over 20 years now!

The manitou damper oil heights are always with the fork fully extended. The low speed comrpession (red knob) is the one for providing trail feel.

It does sound like your poppet valve is wound out too far. It might be getting pushed by the air-cap.
Keep in mind these move between pressure and no pressure. So setting the protrusion isn't always straight-forward.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Thanks for the steer, I'll review the protrusion, and oil levels, and go from there. I always wanted an mach5/FS, alas another few yrs, so only 16 myself.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Thanks for the steer, I'll review the protrusion, and oil levels, and go from there. I always wanted an mach5/FS, alas another few yrs, so only 16 myself.


I had an FS Ti in 1997 and it was an amazing fork. I've been looking for one lately to buy back. Can't find one anywhere!


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Ooh long travel! ha ha. I loved how they drew such a distinction between the sx and fs ti.


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## kand (Feb 4, 2005)

Dougal said:


> I had an FS Ti in 1997 and it was an amazing fork. I've been looking for one lately to buy back. Can't find one anywhere!


 Retrobike uk is your friend in this quest!..... Failing that you can have my mach 5 sx


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Ooh long travel! ha ha. I loved how they drew such a distinction between the sx and fs ti.


Yeah, 6mm. But it did get the bulge stanchions


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Ok checked oil levels and within a mm so close enough. Top cap was loose and I didn't expect the detent balls to be so small, adios to one of them. Dougal is that poppet valve adj reverse thread by any chance, and if so, why? I adjusted it to 1.3 and changed to 150 from 140, really because you can. Any issues foreseen running slightly longer with an angelset, apart from cost?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

This thread is great. I can't get as much travel as Rhys showed in the pic of his red fork the last page, and I run less air than normal (52 psi at 190 pounds geared up for 30% sag), and I run very light compression (full open or 1 click firm).

I bet my damper is slightly overfilled. Not as much as Rhys', but enough to where I can't get full travel even on big hits with 1 HBO.

When I changed the travel, I didn't touch the damper. Guess I'll have to get in there again...


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Never got to 150, it's stuck down at 110mm. presume positive chamber isn't inflating due to more poppet valve adj required. Well tbh I'll sleep on it but happy thoughts are gone and I feel like getting a pike right now.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

bikefiend said:


> Never got to 150, it's stuck down at 110mm. presume positive chamber isn't inflating due to more poppet valve adj required. Well tbh I'll sleep on it but happy thoughts are gone and I feel like getting a pike right now.


I would certainly have it professionally serviced before ditching the fork. A non-operable fork won't be worth much if you sell it, and basic service is a lot cheaper than a Pike.

Where are you located? You can ship the fork anywhere, but a tuner at least in your country would be helpful.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bikefiend said:


> Hi guys,
> long time manitou user so funny in some ways to see Dougal here still fighting the good fight, I havent had one since Sherman! Anyway I installed a mattoc last week. I can't say I fully understand it yet but I'm willing to give it some time. I find the compression circuit gives me little feel of the front end, so I'm working on the settings.
> 
> One thing, may I please confirm the 77mm is with the fork extended or compressed. It's probably apparent once cracked open but I like having an expectation of what I should be seeing once I get there.
> ...


Did you have issues to start?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Ok checked oil levels and within a mm so close enough. Top cap was loose and I didn't expect the detent balls to be so small, adios to one of them. Dougal is that poppet valve adj reverse thread by any chance, and if so, why? I adjusted it to 1.3 and changed to 150 from 140, really because you can. Any issues foreseen running slightly longer with an angelset, apart from cost?


I honestly can't recall the thread direction on the poppet valve. But it is spring loaded so you need to make sure you are fully extended if you are measuring it for protrusion.

My fork valve is at 1.3mm extended but compresses in to ~0.25mm and this works fine with my shock pumps. I have been setting Dorado poppets to the same range.

Try those and get back to us.



bikefiend said:


> Never got to 150, it's stuck down at 110mm. presume positive chamber isn't inflating due to more poppet valve adj required. Well tbh I'll sleep on it but happy thoughts are gone and I feel like getting a pike right now.


It sounds like your negative chamber has trapped pressure inside.

Going to a pike would be a huge backwards step. But I'm sure you'll find plenty of people willing to trade.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Yes on initial inflation out of the box poppet was 1.5 and I needed to drop travel anyway. Combined with build quality issues elsewhere I figured best to dis and reassemble to be sure. 

Outside of poppet adj I don't understand why neg chamber can be out of kilter. When installing the lowers they are both zeroed at extension. 

Another thing that I'm wondering if it should be one time use is the double lip I ring seal on the air spring head. It has an unpleasant journey through the lower stanchion threads each time, surely affecting it's ability to seal. 

And no point handing it over for a service, Australia btw, I'd take the same haircut in changeover, selling as is.
Thanks for the encouragement, I'll keep trying for now.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Yes on initial inflation out of the box poppet was 1.5 and I needed to drop travel anyway. Combined with build quality issues elsewhere I figured best to dis and reassemble to be sure.
> 
> Outside of poppet adj I don't understand why neg chamber can be out of kilter. When installing the lowers they are both zeroed at extension.
> 
> ...


The poppet valve connects the positive and negative chambers when the pump is screwed on. But if adjustment is out it can result in pressure being trapped in positive or negative sides.

I've seen both on Dorado forks and a turn of the allen key up the poppet valve was all it took to fix both of them.
The poppet can be accessed from the top if you have a long enough tool. Undo the cap on the crown and reach down in. Drop all pressure first obviously.
What does your poppet valve measure at now?

The threads on the stanchion ends are recessed, they don't contact the air piston seal on the way past.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Thanks again, it's currently 1.2+-.01, down from 1.5, seems to be functioning as intended. I don't know the thread pitch but that would be ~1/2 turn as you say. I tried accessing through the top but my tool had insufficient feel to sense the detents and determine if it was engaging correctly over a half turn range. Will take for a ride now, fingers crossed. Thanks for your patience.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Pulled my new Pro appart tonight.
Bath lube was good in one leg, and very little in the other.
The lube ontop of the air-piston was about 5ml.
The poppet was about 1.75mm, it is now 1.14mm.
Popped in a travel spacer to run 150mm.
Lubed it up, added 15ml bath oil, and buttoned it up.

I will do the damper fluid check tomorrow, then cut the steerer tube and get the damn thing installed.

<Edit> Checked teh damperening fluid - 77mm to stanchion lip - looks good.

Thanks guys for teh great thread.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Hummm...wonder if the Magnum's IVA is a direct drop in for the Mattoc?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

material guy said:


> Hummm...wonder if the Magnum's IVA is a direct drop in for the Mattoc?


Same cap, no? Honestly if you can use Pike volume reducers, I would use what ever is cheaper!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

A pike token would just rattle around, wouldn't it?


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> Same cap, no? Honestly if you can use Pike volume reducers, I would use what ever is cheaper!


Pike spacers too big must use revelation.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

ColinL said:


> A pike token would just rattle around, wouldn't it?


Hot glue the first "revelation" token into the top cap then screw more on as needed


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> Hummm...wonder if the Magnum's IVA is a direct drop in for the Mattoc?


Manitou wouldn't do it otherwise.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Manitou wouldn't do it otherwise.


I knew that it would fit. Just putting in a dig to the ones who did not think that my idea of using volume spacers was a good idea.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

material guy said:


> I knew that it would fit. Just putting in a dig to the ones who did not think that my idea of using volume spacers was a good idea.


If you like that, there's probably more in store.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

material guy said:


> Pike spacers too big must use revelation.


Someone in this thread was using Rock Shox spacers, I may have mistook them for Pike volume reducers.

Actually, it was you!

Edited to indicated user.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

material guy said:


> I knew that it would fit. Just putting in a dig to the ones who did not think that my idea of using volume spacers was a good idea.


Dig noted.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, does anybody know if a Mattoc Pro fork made in April of 2014 would be a 2014 fork or a 2015 fork? Also, what are the big differences between the 2014 and 2015 fork. I know there was supposed to be a new QR15 axle in 2015 but anything else?

My LBS screwed up an ordered a fork through QBP and not Manitou directly. I was expecting to do a trade in with an old manitou fork and get a discount but now I am thinking of just paying full price for what may be a 2014 model...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> So, does anybody know if a Mattoc Pro fork made in April of 2014 would be a 2014 fork or a 2015 fork? Also, what are the big differences between the 2014 and 2015 fork. I know there was supposed to be a new QR15 axle in 2015 but anything else?
> 
> My LBS screwed up an ordered a fork through QBP and not Manitou directly. I was expecting to do a trade in with an old manitou fork and get a discount but now I am thinking of just paying full price for what may be a 2014 model...


I'm not aware of any differences between 2014 and 2015.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I'm not aware of any differences between 2014 and 2015.


Thanks!


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Is there any word on the ability to reduce to 130 mm @ 27.5" yet? From what I can see nothing should go wrong if I pop another spacer in there....

Context: I'm working on a new trailbike build and have been offered a Mattoc in a bro deal, but don't want to fiddle with the bike's geo (which is already pretty slack with the 130 mm Pike the frameset comes with out of the factory).


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

No reason, that 130mm should cause any troubles just with an extra spacer in.
Just have to run higher pressures to obtain the correct sag.


Scar


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

material guy said:


> I knew that it would fit. Just putting in a dig to the ones who did not think that my idea of using volume spacers was a good idea.


Hahaha, noted here too 
I wasn't ever saying it wasn't a good idea, I simply said it could influence the damper in a negative way in some circumstances.


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

eric said:


> Is there any word on the ability to reduce to 130 mm @ 27.5" yet? From what I can see nothing should go wrong if I pop another spacer in there....


Totally fine. One of the guys at Hayes had one down to 100mm and you can basically put in as many spacers as you want.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

GTR-33 said:


> Totally fine. One of the guys at Hayes had one down to 100mm and you can basically put in as many spacers as you want.


One relatively minor issue would be that the fork only comes with 3 spacers for the air spring, which reduce the travel to 140 when all are installed. So you'd have to source another to lower it to 130.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

ColinL, GTR-33, thanks for the quick response. Mattoc it is, then! I have bags of various spacers lying around so I'm sure we'll be able to fix something if the distributor has nothing on hand. Cheers!


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Anyone find their fork a bit inconsistent at times? 

I'll be out riding a trail and the fork will all of a sudden feel quite firm at the beginning of stroke, like someone has just pumped them up 10 psi or cranked the lsc. It's pretty random, and I swear I'm not imagining it. It usually goes away after a few big hits or pumps up and down


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Anyone find their fork a bit inconsistent at times?
> 
> I'll be out riding a trail and the fork will all of a sudden feel quite firm at the beginning of stroke, like someone has just pumped them up 10 psi or cranked the lsc. It's pretty random, and I swear I'm not imagining it. It usually goes away after a few big hits or pumps up and down


I would check two things.

1. Poppet valve connecting the air chambers is adjusted within spec. I have posted the measurements from mine earlier.
2. The air piston has some lube. Either oil or grease.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

That all checks out unfortunately. The poppet is at 1mm and I redid the air spring with grease rather than oil about a month ago. I'd have to actually check the grease hasn't been pushed away but you'd probably expect additional symptoms if this was the case?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> That all checks out unfortunately. The poppet is at 1mm and I redid the air spring with grease rather than oil about a month ago. I'd have to actually check the grease hasn't been pushed away but you'd probably expect additional symptoms if this was the case?


I increase poppet protrusion to a little more than that. Around 1.3mm on Dorado and my Mattoc matches this.

Your symptoms could only fit with air pressures suddenly equalising or not equalising in the air chamber. Does the lower shaft seal have enough lubrication with your grease on the piston?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, my Mattoc will be installed on Monday. Today and tomorrow, I will put the last miles on my 2007 Nixon Elite TPC+. Hopefully, I will be able to give a ride report sometime next week comparing the Mattoc to the Nixon.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> I increase poppet protrusion to a little more than that. Around 1.3mm on Dorado and my Mattoc matches this.
> 
> Your symptoms could only fit with air pressures suddenly equalising or not equalising in the air chamber. Does the lower shaft seal have enough lubrication with your grease on the piston?


I've put the poppet at 1.3mm now, see how that goes. I made another rubber washer to go into the air cap so I can confidently screw it on tightly without depressing the valve.

There was actually plenty of lube for the air spring because it had ingested oil from the lowers. As I said I rebuilt it sans oil last time, so the oil must have come from the lowers. I only put 10ml in the air side of the lowers this time as clearly it's having trouble dealing with 15ml at bottom out.

Cheers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> So, my Mattoc will be installed on Monday. Today and tomorrow, I will put the last miles on my 2007 Nixon Elite TPC+. Hopefully, I will be able to give a ride report sometime next week comparing the Mattoc to the Nixon.


I've already had a good comparison with my Nixon (2005 coil spring Elite with 2006 TPC+ damper) and 160mm 26" Mattoc.
The modifications to the Nixon are I think (I've had it for 10 years, memory fades) a reshimmed rebound circuit and I've reduced the friction in the damper cartridge end-cap seals.

The upshot is there are two specific bump types which I think the Nixon works better at. These are the small amplitude of a certain frequency and then in slow nose-heavy crawling.
The rest of the time the Mattoc is equal or better. Helped by the extra travel, lighter weight, seperate HSC/LSC damper controls and the HBO.

This isn't a slight on the Mattoc, this just reinforces how good the TPC+ coil spring Nixon was all those years ago. 10 years on it's still holding it's own. The TPC+ allows it some extra small bump sensitivity and the coil spring in mine does have a slightly firmer mid-stroke.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Can anyone elaborate on what would happen if you don't pull up the lowers while inflating the Mattoc and end up riding it at lower height, i.e. 1cm. or so? Any potential performance or reliability issues?


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Yesterday I pulled apart the fork again, about 10 rides from last service, and all the oil in the air spring was already gone.

Maybe the fox blue stuff isn't thick enough, who knows.. this time I used slick honey and 2ml of a very slick additive made by rsp, let's se how it will perform. Next time I'll probably try the Supergliss 100k that I use for the lowers..

I also checked the position of the valve and it was protruding by 1,5mm, so I reduced it a little bit.

@Dougal: is there a way to know the correct valve protrusion for a given fork (and pump) or it's something that just goes by feeling?


By the way, I also checked the oil level in the cartridge and it was not looking that good, a lot of really small air bubbles. I'll get the Motorex..


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

imbecile said:


> Can anyone elaborate on what would happen if you don't pull up the lowers while inflating the Mattoc and end up riding it at lower height, i.e. 1cm. or so? Any potential performance or reliability issues?


1 cm less travel and a steeper head angle by almost 1/2 deg.
Should not be any performance issues.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Yep, that's clear; I meant in terms of negative spring, i.e. top out issues. Otherwise it sounds like the perfect on-the-trail travel adjust...it's not like turning a knob or something, but it's not completely disassembling the fork either. At least in the range of 2-3cm, which is similar to the factory travel adjust with spacers.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

The air spring seems to have a little Manitou IT in it!


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

*Service manuals? rebuild help?*

Alright, been skulking around this thread for a bit. Have a couple questions. I have a Mattoc Pro on my Chromag hardtail, lowered to 140mm. I just purchased another mattoc pro to put on my Remedy, but - like an idiot - measured once, cut once, and now have to put new uppers on.

Have the uppers, took everything apart (damper, rebound assembly, and air spring), and have no service manual that I can find for reassembly (specifically the damper side with oil levels). I have Motorex 5wt and Semi-Bath, and a full shop's worth of tools at my disposal (including the Manitou tool kit). Any help?

Secondly - I measured the Axle-to-crown on both forks (one at 140mm, the other still at 160mm) and they're the same - 532mm. I'm wondering what to make of that.

Thanks for any help.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Reachcontrol said:


> Alright, been skulking around this thread for a bit. Have a couple questions. I have a Mattoc Pro on my Chromag hardtail, lowered to 140mm. I just purchased another mattoc pro to put on my Remedy, but - like an idiot - measured once, cut once, and now have to put new uppers on.
> 
> Have the uppers, took everything apart (damper, rebound assembly, and air spring), and have no service manual that I can find for reassembly (specifically the damper side with oil levels). I have Motorex 5wt and Semi-Bath, and a full shop's worth of tools at my disposal (including the Manitou tool kit). Any help?
> 
> Secondly - I measured the Axle-to-crown on both forks (one at 140mm, the other still at 160mm) and they're the same - 532mm. I'm wondering what to make of that.


If you cut the steerer tube too short, can't you just press on a new one? I actually don't have a hydraulic press to remove and re-install, but isn't that how it is done?

Regarding the lack of a service manual - Dougal and others found out the damper oil and height previously, it's 77mm from the top of the leg for the Pro and 80mm for Expert. And I sure hope you didn't completely disassemble the damper... Dougal did that, and if I recall correctly he said it was 33 pieces. Ouch.

I honestly have never measured the a2c on my fork, but I'm very sure it has not lost travel (sucked down) at either 160 or 140mm. But the first explanation that comes to mind is that your 160mm fork has a problem with the air piston (seal head or poppet valve) and it's causing it to suck down to the same travel as the 140.

Just some quick thoughts before I head out for a pint, so take it as you will.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So the Mattoc is installed and I had my first ride today. I went from this:









To this:









I had about 75 lbs of air in the fork and ran it with rebound 2 clicks from full fast and everything else open.

Compared to my 2007 TPC+ Nixon, this fork is better. It is stiffer, plusher and more controlled. I was actually a little surprised at this as my nixon is a really great fork! The thing that I noticed right away was the bump control was very good. Very smooth and controlled. The faster the better as well.

Still need to play with the settings but so far, I am impressed.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

ColinL said:


> If you cut the steerer tube too short, can't you just press on a new one? I actually don't have a hydraulic press to remove and re-install, but isn't that how it is done?
> 
> Regarding the lack of a service manual - Dougal and others found out the damper oil and height previously, it's 77mm from the top of the leg for the Pro and 80mm for Expert. And I sure hope you didn't completely disassemble the damper... Dougal did that, and if I recall correctly he said it was 33 pieces. Ouch.
> 
> ...


I ended up calling Erik at Hayes, and he called me back within an hour. Super awesome to get that.

As far as the steerer, I was fortunate to get a fully assembled upper for no cost. I did NOT take the damper apart. Not that green. He got me the info I needed, as there was a slight issue with the fork prior to my initial dis-assembly. Hoping that, or a negative air issue, was the reason for appearance of lower travel.

So I'll get her back together this evening, and be running Mattocs on both my steeds.

Another hour till my pint, thanks for the response.

Erik also confirmed service videos coming VERY soon.

CHEERS!


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## GTR-33 (Sep 25, 2008)

ColinL said:


> If you cut the steerer tube too short, can't you just press on a new one?


In theory... Finding someone that is willing, able, and skilled enough to do it right with the right materials? Good luck, especially for less than the cost of a new upper.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So how easy is it to open the top damper side and check to the oil level?

The reason I ask is that I did a ride today and had dropped the pressure down to 40psi. I am close to 210 lbs (all kitted up) and wonder if my damper has too much oil.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> So how easy is it to open the top damper side and check to the oil level?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I did a ride today and had dropped the pressure down to 40psi. I am close to 210 lbs (all kitted up) and wonder if my damper has too much oil.


It is easy to do but be careful about the adjusters, there are tiny bearings in there for the indents. Take the gray HBO out with the Slow comp adjuster out as one piece.
In the air side, the oil on top of the air spring tends to migrate into the neg air chamber which lessens the neg air volume and causes a less supple ride. I am using slickhoney for lube in the air spring to stop this.
Hope this is helpful.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

material guy said:


> It is easy to do but be careful about the adjusters, there are tiny bearings in there for the indents. Take the gray HBO out with the Slow comp adjuster out as one piece.
> In the air side, the oil on top of the air spring tends to migrate into the neg air chamber which lessens the neg air volume and causes a less supple ride. I am using slickhoney for lube in the air spring to stop this.
> Hope this is helpful.


I learned to be careful about using too MUCH slick honey in an air spring. It can cause the air spring to hang up and you'll feel/hear a distinct "clunk" upon return from a larger hit, and even sometimes just from compression at the bars while standing.

I'm going to do a short step-by-step with hints for teardown of this fork on my blog, address below. I'll post a link. I don't think I'm near as knowledgeable at Dougal or some of the other guys on here, but I was able to tear down completely (except for the damper itself) and change crowns, adjust air levels, and rebuild a fork that feels great. I also spent some time on the phone with Erik from Hayes Components tech support and he gave me some hints that were very helpful.

Thanks again to the replies I got on here and for the oil specs in this thread - super helpful.

Rocking two Mattocs now! One on my Chromag Samurai 65 Hardtail at 140mm, and one on my 2015 Remedy 9.8 at 150mm.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)




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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


>


Maybe you should talk to the guy who cut his steerer too short. See if it's long enough for your bike?

But that's the most minor scratch I think I could see. I wouldn't stress about it too much.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

That wouldn't fix a bushing issue though? It's not crash damage..

It is pretty minor (not through the anodizing) but I'm still thinking about sending them back because the stiff hex lock axle is annoying me too. Just not sure I can be bothered with the muck around, especially considering how much I like this particular fork otherwise


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

material guy said:


> It is easy to do but be careful about the adjusters, there are tiny bearings in there for the indents. Take the gray HBO out with the Slow comp adjuster out as one piece.
> In the air side, the oil on top of the air spring tends to migrate into the neg air chamber which lessens the neg air volume and causes a less supple ride. I am using slickhoney for lube in the air spring to stop this.
> Hope this is helpful.


Thanks. Your description makes me think there most likely is oil in the negative chamber.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, I rode today with the fork set at 45 PSI, which actually gave about 45 mm of sag. I had the rebound set 2 from full fast, with one click of HS compression, 1 click of Low speed compression and HBO all the way out (off?). 

On a ride that consisted of lots of 3-12 inch roots and rocks, with only 1 or 2 major speed events (lots of slow speed stuff) with only a few jumps, I ended up using ~140mm of travel (out of 160). For comparison, in the rear (dw linked 5 spot), I used about 120/140 of total travel so overall a pretty balanced ride. 

Very happy with the fork so far. Very plush and controlled. I did not expect it to be so much better than my nixon but it feels like a huge improvement. 

I was going to open the fork up but I may just wait and see how it breaks in further.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Glad you are liking it!

Probably not a bad plan holding off on opening it up straight away. Manitou seem to be getting plenty of lower oil in from factory, so shouldn't be any worries there. I'd recommend reading up on the position of the poppet, oil/grease in the air chamber, oil level in the damper, getting your tools sorted etc etc so when you pull it apart you can get it all done at the same time. I've had mine in pieces 3 or 4 times making changes to the above, plus revising travel. I know it inside out now but have wasted plenty of time and oil in the process.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Glad you are liking it!
> 
> Probably not a bad plan holding off on opening it up straight away. Manitou seem to be getting plenty of lower oil in from factory, so shouldn't be any worries there. I'd recommend reading up on the position of the poppet, oil/grease in the air chamber, oil level in the damper, getting your tools sorted etc etc so when you pull it apart you can get it all done at the same time. I've had mine in pieces 3 or 4 times making changes to the above, plus revising travel. I know it inside out now but have wasted plenty of time and oil in the process.


Yes, I am trying to adhere to the "if it ain't broke..." mantra but I do have a strong desire to take it apart to make it even better! I did let all the air out of it and compressed it - by actually sitting on the bike. As you mentioned earlier - I am topping out at about 145 mm of travel. Very hard stop. So, although I most likely have too much oil in the damper, the feel is still very nice and I am going to hold off doing anything until another 100 miles or so.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Might be worth sorting that oil level if it's limiting you by that much. It's easy enough as material guy said, and you don't have to take the lowers off. You don't even have to remove the fork from the bike (just make sure the forks are level when measuring the oil height). The only bearings you have to watch out for are two around the outside of the HBO knob. The rest of the indents are controlled internally (within the damper itself)...good because the balls and springs are so easy to lose, but not so good if you wanted to modify them


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Might be worth sorting that oil level if it's limiting you by that much. It's easy enough as material guy said, and you don't have to take the lowers off. You don't even have to remove the fork from the bike (just make sure the forks are level when measuring the oil height). The only bearings you have to watch out for are two around the outside of the HBO knob. The rest of the indents are controlled internally (within the damper itself)...good because the balls and springs are so easy to lose, but not so good if you wanted to modify them


You are right. It made a huge difference for you, correct?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, I took off the HBO, HS and LS adusters. For this, I removed the one allen key and the small nut. I saw no ball bearings. I tried to remove the compression assembly directly using the Manitou specific tool but the assembly is just turning and not coming out. I did not want to strip the threads so I stopped. There were about 2-3 mm of threads showing. What am I missing?


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Using the cassette tool, you need to unthread the damper until it appears to just be spinning in the same position. Sounds like this is the stage you are at, but I'm sure there should be more than 2-3mm of thread showing. Can you see the o-ring at the base of the thread? Does the damper feel 'free'? Can you sort of wiggle it around a bit or does it still feel attached by the thread?

Anyway once you've reached that stage you just need to give the damper a couple of good firm tugs and it will sort of jerkily slide up and out of the stanchion. All that's holding it in at that stage are the o-rings sealing against the inside of the stanchion.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> You are right. It made a huge difference for you, correct?


I have a fork that is physically capable of using its full travel now, so it was well worthwhile. In practise I'm still having trouble using full travel at pressures that give me the sag/mid stroke support that I need, but I'm sure once I start riding the more aggressive trails again I will start getting deeper into the stroke.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> I'm sure once I start riding the more aggressive trails again I will start getting deeper into the stroke.


Just be careful with that. One new Mattoc owner found so much new confidence that he ran out of talent.
After the first weekend he spent two weeks waiting for his ribs to heal.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Haha, just as well I'm stuck in boring Australia then! I thought the old Fox 32s handled Whistler Bike Park alright, can only imagine what the Mattocs would do to that place.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Using the cassette tool, you need to unthread the damper until it appears to just be spinning in the same position. Sounds like this is the stage you are at, but I'm sure there should be more than 2-3mm of thread showing. Can you see the o-ring at the base of the thread? Does the damper feel 'free'? Can you sort of wiggle it around a bit or does it still feel attached by the thread?
> 
> Anyway once you've reached that stage you just need to give the damper a couple of good firm tugs and it will sort of jerkily slide up and out of the stanchion. All that's holding it in at that stage are the o-rings sealing against the inside of the stanchion.


Thanks. I went back and did just that and it came out nicely. The oil level was not bad - at about 72mm. I brought it to 77mm and will see what it does.

Did a ride today on more chunky trails and I got 140mm of travel (out of 160) but once again, the forks feel amazing - very controlled and it feels like I always have travel to spare.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

So, you removed oil equal to 5 ml on the fork leg?

"Brought it to" kind of confused me, like you added more oil.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Anybody have an axle / hub interface issue?

My new mattoc seems to not like my hope hubs too much.
I can grab and wiggle the wheel - with about a 1/4 inch or so movement at the tire.

I will grab some measurements when I get a chance. Will measure the axle, and both end caps....

michael


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> So, you removed oil equal to 5 ml on the fork leg?
> 
> "Brought it to" kind of confused me, like you added more oil.


Sorry. Yes. I removed oil. I actually use a scientific pipet with a plug on the end so that only 77mm is exposed. I can put that right on top of the damper and suck up oil till the height is at 77mm (where nothing but air will come up). Works like a charm.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mykel said:


> Anybody have an axle / hub interface issue?
> 
> My new mattoc seems to not like my hope hubs too much.
> I can grab and wiggle the wheel - with about a 1/4 inch or so movement at the tire.
> ...


I have hope hubs and don't have any issues. I moved from a 20mm axle to the 15mm axle and purchased new end caps. Maybe new end caps?


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Same here, moved from 20mm to 15mm.
End caps are brand new.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mykel said:


> Same here, moved from 20mm to 15mm.
> End caps are brand new.


You know,, I used to have that problem with my old Nixon. What I would do was to insert the axle, push down on the handlebars and than tighten the end cap, followed by the small screws. The LBS installed my Mattoc and I have not taken the wheel off yet.


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## Eld (Jan 28, 2014)

Have you set the preload on the axle tight enough?


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Preload is as tight as it will go.
Does not seem to be a width issue, but an axle / end-cap diameter issue.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Sorry. Yes. I removed oil. I actually use a scientific pipet with a plug on the end so that only 77mm is exposed. I can put that right on top of the damper and suck up oil till the height is at 77mm (where nothing but air will come up). Works like a charm.


I would love to see this device! :thumbsup:


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

+1.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Solved.
Buddy brought over his hope/15mm
Works a treat.
Swapped end-caps - all is good.
So, looks like I have a pair of end-caps that are out of spec.

LBS has stock, so will do the swap tomorrow and then I get to finally ride this thing...


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Amazon.com: Motion Pro 08-0121 Fork Oil Level Tool: Automotive


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I would love to see this device! :thumbsup:


Not as sexy as it sounds:


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mykel said:


> Solved.
> Buddy brought over his hope/15mm
> Works a treat.
> Swapped end-caps - all is good.
> ...


That is great news. I always wondered if that could be a possibility. Hope end caps are very simple, basically plastic.


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## material guy (Mar 14, 2011)

For the oil heigth, I just use a syringe and use head set spacers slid onto it to achieve the 77mm for the oil height on my fork. Stupid simple. And cheeper than the other devices.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

I lower a random metal strip into my stanchion until it touches the oil, and measure that length.

I don't think it needs to be super accurate. Within a few mm is fine


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So I dropped the lowers and removed the air spring. Lots of oil in the negative chamber - probably close to 5 mls. Bath oil was low as well so I am glad I opened it up. The fork has a manufacture date of 4.2014 so I am not surprised. I used 2 mL (instead of 7ml) on top of the air piston and 15 mL on each side for the bath oil. I used Castrol GTX 10W-40 Motor Oil for both. 

Overall, a much easier fork to take apart than any thing I have ever had. I actually purchased the manitou tool kit with the fork which made everything much easier. 

The only issue I had was the QR15 axle. The LBS had put the fork on the bike and I had never even removed the wheel until doing the service. While it was QR15 axle was easy enough to remove -took me a frustrating 5 minutes before I learned how to put it back on. 

I put 65 psi back in and the fork is noticeably more linear and plusher (similar to what I felt at 40 psi before). Will see how it feels on the trail.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

You couldn't resist! Sounds like it was for the best anyway.

Where do I look for the manufacturing date?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> You couldn't resist! Sounds like it was for the best anyway.
> 
> Where do I look for the manufacturing date?


It was on my box. I was shocked that it was so old. I will take a picture later today.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

So I've been really lazy guys, and haven't gotten a tear-down guide with pics together. Most all the info is already here in the thread, and I was in a hurry to get riding and didn't take pics when I had the fork apart last time for the upper swap.

My question is, when my travel spacers get here from Erik, and I tear the fork down for that, do you guys feel there is a real need for a step-by-step guide with pics?

I have enough Motorex and Semi-Bath to do it, but don't want to waste the time if you guys don't really need it anymore. Plus, Erik said the guide from Manitou will be available within a short while anyway.

Thoughts?

-Rob


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reachcontrol said:


> So I've been really lazy guys, and haven't gotten a tear-down guide with pics together. Most all the info is already here in the thread, and I was in a hurry to get riding and didn't take pics when I had the fork apart last time for the upper swap.
> 
> My question is, when my travel spacers get here from Erik, and I tear the fork down for that, do you guys feel there is a real need for a step-by-step guide with pics?
> 
> ...


Well, I think it would be great to have a step by step guide. Manitou may offer it but having multiple sources always helps.

If you don't mind, hurray it up!


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> It was on my box. I was shocked that it was so old. I will take a picture later today.


Hello Vespasianus, was your Mattoc from QBP and Expert or Pro model? I'm also coming from Nixon TPC+, mine is a super 145mm and am thinking a new Mattoc in my future. I'm currently using the Nixon on a BH Lynx 6 Aluminum 150mm with the stock 27.5 wheels (although I had to re-lace the hub for the Nixon's 20mm). I've been a Manitou fan for many years and am liking what hear about the Mattoc.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Know someone where I could buy the tool kit for the Mattoc, on the net and available to be sent in Switzerland ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Aresab said:


> Hello Vespasianus, was your Mattoc from QBP and Expert or Pro model? I'm also coming from Nixon TPC+, mine is a super 145mm and am thinking a new Mattoc in my future. I'm currently using the Nixon on a BH Lynx 6 Aluminum 150mm with the stock 27.5 wheels (although I had to re-lace the hub for the Nixon's 20mm). I've been a Manitou fan for many years and am liking what hear about the Mattoc.


Yes but by mistake. Manitou offers 40% off for any rider of an old Manitou. The problem is that there was some confusion and my LBS did not cal manitou directly and just ordered it from QBP. However, being a great LBS, they gave me the price manitou was offering ($510). I got the Mattoc 160 Pro (26").

I had both a 160 IT Nixon with TPC+ and a 2008 145mm Manitou Elite (Mars Air) with TPC+. Both of these had 20mm axles. Overall, it is a huge improvement over the Nixon. I was very shocked by this as my Nixon was (and is) a great fork.

The damper in the Mattoc is just miles ahead of anything I have ever ridden. It is just so smooth and controlled. I am clearing technical terrain with such ease that I am even surprising my self.

I actually don't have that much time on the fork, only about 20 hours, but so far so good. The fork should break in some more and I am hoping that I eek out some more travel from it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Know someone where I could buy the tool kit for the Mattoc, on the net and available to be sent in Switzerland ?
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


Chain reaction cycles should have them.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanks for the reply, getting more interested every day. Now I have to decide on the Pro or Expert. I don't mind the slight extra weight and I like the simplicity of in-leg damping. I'm curious if there is any measurable performance between either model? The Pro seems to be the only one reviewed. Any thoughts?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Aresab said:


> Thanks for the reply, getting more interested every day. Now I have to decide on the Pro or Expert. I don't mind the slight extra weight and I like the simplicity of in-leg damping. I'm curious if there is any measurable performance between either model? The Pro seems to be the only one reviewed. Any thoughts?


Yes, most reviews have been with the Pro but I don't think there is much difference between the two. I know people on this board have both the Expert and the Pro, so maybe the others can chime in.

I have only seen a few reviews in English. With that said, there are some web-boards in other languages that have long discussions and reviews on the Mattoc:

A melhor suspensão do Mundo

manitou mattoc | ForoMTB.com

VELOMIRSHOP.RU: Manitou Mattoc. ???? ????

Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de

Google translate sucks and it is hard to understand what people are saying. But the pictures are nice! In many of the rankings, the Mattoc is 3rd and and the value winner. Many places also list travel at 155mm and not 160.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> You couldn't resist! Sounds like it was for the best anyway.
> 
> Where do I look for the manufacturing date?


This was what was on my box:

I guess that means a build date of April 3rd of 2014?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> This was what was on my box:
> 
> View attachment 987509
> 
> ...


I think you are reading it right, because mine says 2014/6/13 and there aren't 13 months.  Mine is a 26" 160mm Expert, though, not Pro.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I think you are reading it right, because mine says 2014/6/13 and there aren't 13 months.  Mine is a 26" 160mm Expert, though, not Pro.


That is what I thought. Surprising that when I purchased the fork, it was over a year old!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> That is what I thought. Surprising that when I purchased the fork, it was over a year old!


Yep - I bought mine in October 2014, it was only 4 months old. I think they had a pretty good inventory. A ton of folks on Pike and Float 36. And now there's even more competition from the DVO Diamond, MRP Stage and even the 2016 Float 34 is starting to ship.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Yep - I bought mine in October 2014, it was only 4 months old. I think they had a pretty good inventory. A ton of folks on Pike and Float 36. And now there's even more competition from the DVO Diamond, MRP Stage and even the 2016 Float 34 is starting to ship.


I know. Manitou may need to update this fork soon to stay competitive.

Also, I was surprised how light the Mattoc is, especially compared to my Nixon. On the shop scale, they said 4 lbs, 2 ounces. My old Nixon, was 5 lbs 8 ounces! Yikes!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> I know. Manitou may need to update this fork soon to stay competitive.


I bet the 2016 models have the same air spring cap & tokens as the Magnum. material guy was way ahead of his time.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I bet the 2016 models have the same air spring cap & tokens as the Magnum. material guy was way ahead of his time.


Yup. But they also need to make it easier for the fork to achieve full travel. You see people commenting about the shortage of travel on the Mattoc and in recent reviews on the Magnum.

Manitou's demise was a result of their reputation. They need to fix that before anything else. And having a fork - no matter how great it feels - that comes up short in travel will not help it compete against the other forks out there. I love this fork and believe it could become the standard by which other forks are measured with just a few changes.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi, Long time lurker here.. been following this thread for a few months while I made up my mind to purchase a Mattoc to replace a 34 Talas Evo.

Installed a 2015 expert on my Trance SX last night. Initially dialled all settings, in anticipation of a test ride today. No problems with the poppet valve. It is protruding at least 1mm and from riding up and down my street the air spring seems to have equalized and is performing well. 
However I do have the problem of a lot of oil coming from the valve after disconnecting the pump. Someone else mentioned this problem about halfway back through this thread. One reply suggested that the oil level was incorrect (over 7cc) and another suggested that the spring needs to be pressurised while upside down. 
I am in Australia and purchased this fork from the UK, is it possible that some oil got down the valve in shipping? 
The fork was pressurised to around 70psi when I received it. 
I will be stripping the fork down to check/rectify oil levels soon anyway but, has anyone else experienced this problem and how did you fix it?
Cheers


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Seemus7 said:


> Hi, Long time lurker here.. been following this thread for a few months while I made up my mind to purchase a Mattoc to replace a 34 Talas Evo.
> 
> Installed a 2015 expert on my Trance SX last night. Initially dialled all settings, in anticipation of a test ride today. No problems with the poppet valve. It is protruding at least 1mm and from riding up and down my street the air spring seems to have equalized and is performing well.
> However I do have the problem of a lot of oil coming from the valve after disconnecting the pump. Someone else mentioned this problem about halfway back through this thread. One reply suggested that the oil level was incorrect (over 7cc) and another suggested that the spring needs to be pressurised while upside down.
> ...


Pump the fork full of air when the bike is upside down. Otherwise, you an get some oil threw the valve. Make sure to pull up on the fork as well to make sure it is fully extended.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Vespasianus said:


> Pump the fork full of air when the bike is upside down. Otherwise, you an get some oil threw the valve. Make sure to pull up on the fork as well to make sure it is fully extended.


Will do just that before riding today. Thanks for the advice mate. :thumbsup:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Seemus7 said:


> Hi, Long time lurker here.. been following this thread for a few months while I made up my mind to purchase a Mattoc to replace a 34 Talas Evo.
> 
> Installed a 2015 expert on my Trance SX last night. Initially dialled all settings, in anticipation of a test ride today. No problems with the poppet valve. It is protruding at least 1mm and from riding up and down my street the air spring seems to have equalized and is performing well.
> However I do have the problem of a lot of oil coming from the valve after disconnecting the pump. Someone else mentioned this problem about halfway back through this thread. One reply suggested that the oil level was incorrect (over 7cc) and another suggested that the spring needs to be pressurised while upside down.
> ...


Yeah gravity works the same way in Australia as everywhere else. Hook a pump up to the lowest port and expect to find some oil.

Invert the bike and the oil runs away from the valve. You'll still get some, but it won't fill your pump.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Seemus7 said:


> Will do just that before riding today. Thanks for the advice mate. :thumbsup:


Enjoy it. This is a fork you can trust in the nasty stuff. I find when the trail gets really choppy, the fork comes into its own.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Yeah gravity works the same way in Australia as everywhere else. Hook a pump up to the lowest port and expect to find some oil.
> 
> Invert the bike and the oil runs away from the valve. You'll still get some, but it won't fill your pump.


Cheers for the reply... its only the toilet that flushes the opposite direction down under..



Vespasianus said:


> Enjoy it. This is a fork you can trust in the nasty stuff. I find when the trail gets really choppy, the fork comes into its own.


Excellent, what you just said and all the good reviews I have read is what I based my decision on....oh and the good price. With this bike being my first real mountain bike it took about 6 months for me to surpass the performance of the chattery and divey Talas. 
I have a ride this sunday on a new track here called the Juggernaught, which is the type of track the mattoc is made for!........sorry for rambling, just a tad excited :cornut:


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Yup. But they also need to make it easier for the fork to achieve full travel. You see people commenting about the shortage of travel on the Mattoc and in recent reviews on the Magnum.
> 
> Manitou's demise was a result of their reputation. They need to fix that before anything else. And having a fork - no matter how great it feels - that comes up short in travel will not help it compete against the other forks out there. I love this fork and believe it could become the standard by which other forks are measured with just a few changes.


Do the reviews suggest the fork is actually physically short on travel? Or are they just saying it is difficult to use?

Dougal and I have shown the fork is not physically short on the advertised travel. I read a number of comments and reviews before purchasing alluding to the fork actually only having ~155mm (or less) of travel in 160mm mode. This is not correct. There is around 154mm of travel before the bottom out bumpers are engaged. The bumpers compress to allow a full 160mm. If anyone cannot achieve full travel on their fork, even with all the air removed, they need to check the oil level in their damper.

I do agree in practice, with appropriate air levels, it is difficult to use the full travel on this fork. At least for lighter-medium weight riders not riding super aggressive trails.

Over winter (summer for you guys) I'll be disengaging the HBO system. It will be interesting to see what difference this makes.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Do the reviews suggest the fork is actually physically short on travel? Or are they just saying it is difficult to use?
> 
> Dougal and I have shown the fork is not physically short on the advertised travel. I read a number of comments and reviews before purchasing alluding to the fork actually only having ~155mm (or less) of travel in 160mm mode. This is not correct. There is around 154mm of travel before the bottom out bumpers are engaged. The bumpers compress to allow a full 160mm. If anyone cannot achieve full travel on their fork, even with all the air removed, they need to check the oil level in their damper.
> 
> ...


There is a review on the Magnum were the reviewer states they were short on travel (Great New Rides | Bicycling). The WMB review from the UK mentioned the same thing about the Mattoc as well. I am a firm believer on quality not quantity of travel and love the feel of the Mattoc, but I think the general public just wants travel. If Manitou forks get a bad reputation, I worry that they will have a hard time gaining market share.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Nothing a few volume reducers won't fix. Haha kidding.

I agree with you on quality over quantity. However, as you said earlier, at the end of the day if people are having big dramas using the travel Manitou have stuffed up. I wonder if it's a characteristic of the Dorado as well


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Hate to say it, but overfilled dampers is my first guess.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Hate to say it, but overfilled dampers is my first guess.


Yes, you may be right. I would also say, I think these forks need to break in before they give 100%. I am running about 65PSI for my 200 lbs and they feel great. I am getting exactly 137 mm of travel (which is odd in itself!) but the travel feels endless, like I have tons of room left. This fork is actually making my dw linked rear end (with a Push Kashima coated RP23) feel down right turd like.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

I have a Mattoc Pro 275 running a 26" wheel. The exposed portions of the stanchions are longer than 160mm, so it always looks like full travel hasn't been used. This is a shot of the fork using all 160mm. I'm 195lbs running it at 65psi with the HBO maxed out, low speed maxed out, and 2 clicks of high speed.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow. What type of drop or jump are you landing from in that pic? How much sag have you set up?


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

ColinL said:


> Wow. What type of drop or jump are you landing from in that pic? How much sag have you set up?


It's probably 4-5 foot to almost flat. I was just testing something we were building. I'm running 20% sag on the fork.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lanceuppercut said:


> I have a Mattoc Pro 275 running a 26" wheel. The exposed portions of the stanchions are longer than 160mm, so it always looks like full travel hasn't been used. This is a shot of the fork using all 160mm. I'm 195lbs running it at 65psi with the HBO maxed out, low speed maxed out, and 2 clicks of high speed.


Dude, nice shot! That is where you want to use full travel and where the HBO really becomes valuable. Also, are you running a 27.5" fork with a 26" wheel?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

lanceuppercut said:


> It's probably 4-5 foot to almost flat. I was just testing something we were building. I'm running 20% sag on the fork.


that just blows my mind. have you serviced your damper? if not, I'd be curious if your damper is low.

...because mine is as stiff as an XC fork at fully closed LSC and HBO. I haven't hit a 5 foot drop, but a 2 foot one will give no more than half-travel with 30% sag on my fork. it's also a bone-jarring ride.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> that just blows my mind. have you serviced your damper? if not, I'd be curious if your damper is low.
> 
> ...because mine is as stiff as an XC fork at fully closed LSC and HBO. I haven't hit a 5 foot drop, but a 2 foot one will give no more than half-travel with 30% sag on my fork. it's also a bone-jarring ride.


I will let lanceuppercut respond but I did look at his other posts and he is a rider. That man has some serious skills and is hitting some big stuff. Lanceuppercut, you made me realize that I need to push this fork harder!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> I will let lanceuppercut respond but I did look at his other posts and he is a rider. *That man has some serious skills and is hitting some big stuff.* Lanceuppercut, you made me realize that I need to push this fork harder!


it didn't come across in my other posts, but I came to the same conclusion and I'm just trying to rationalize the differences in our setup.

even for what he's doing, I'm seriously blown away at how stiff his fork is setup. heck- pinkbike tested the fork with 3 riders, one of them very fast and aggressive, and that guy was not running max LSC and HBO!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

The fork will use full travel, even with lighter riders, but give it a few rides to break in. My son is running one on his Turner 5 spot. He is 120 pounds and with the sag at 23 percent (about 45 psi with it set to 150mm travel) he will use 145mm plus of travel on larger jumps. For rocky, fast descents with smaller jumps and drops the fork stays up in its travel and he will not use the last 25 mm or so. The bottom out control works as designed when set up properly. I believe he is one click from full fast rebound, one click of low speed, and everything else wide open. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> it didn't come across in my other posts, but I came to the same conclusion and I'm just trying to rationalize the differences in our setup.
> 
> even for what he's doing, I'm seriously blown away at how stiff his fork is setup. heck- pinkbike tested the fork with 3 riders, one of them very fast and aggressive, and that guy was not running max LSC and HBO!


I think, like most other forks, there is a large variation of what works. Some people are 190 lbs running 95 psi. I am 205 lbs and 95 PSI creates a rigid fork. I am sure the bike geometry and other factors play a role here. II have often found this to be true of most forks I have tried. lanceuppercut looks to be running a 27.5 fork with 26" wheels, which could put much more weight on the front end.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's an interesting comparison. I did a ride on the weekend with both me and the other rider on 26" 160mm Mattocs. I've personally checked and set the oil levels in each fork. 

We ride the same track, I used full travel and he is ~15mm short.

Why? Because he's running higher air pressure. It's got nothing to do with the fork design or construction, it's simply a rider used to or their bike requiring a firmer spring feel.

Most people set their suspension up very differently to me. I usually give my riding buddies a few tracks at their usual settings and then offer to setup their bikes for them. This always means a lot less spring pressure and they ride a whole lot better after it.

My Mattoc required zero break-in. It was smooth and free straight out the box. Which I find amazing.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> However, as you said earlier, at the end of the day if people are having big dramas using the travel Manitou have stuffed up. I wonder if it's a characteristic of the Dorado as well


I think people simply aren't used to a fork with a functioning compression damper and are running too much air pressure.

But this can also be a problem with the rear shock. I know I have never been 100% satisfied with how other companies rear shocks balance with Mattoc or even Minute forks. 
Going to a McLeod rear shock was the instant cure. We've done this on three bikes now and balance was very easy to acheive.

The sucky part was going back. Two of the bikes went back to their previous rear shocks.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I think people simply aren't used to a fork with a functioning compression damper and are running too much air pressure.
> 
> But this can also be a problem with the rear shock. I know I have never been 100% satisfied with how other companies rear shocks balance with Mattoc or even Minute forks.
> Going to a McLeod rear shock was the instant cure. We've done this on three bikes now and balance was very easy to acheive.
> ...


Should we create a set-up thread? What is the most relevant information people should provide? Weight, sag, air pressure, bike, ridding style?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Should we create a set-up thread? What is the most relevant information people should provide? Weight, sag, air pressure, bike, ridding style?


I've been meaning to create tuning guides for rear shocks with HSC, LSC, spring and volume adjusters. The Mattoc guide would be basically the same. Just a fork instead.

I've got a Revox to install.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Had a short ride yesterday to dial in my new mattoc. I'm 220 lbs and ended up with 78psi, 1 click out on Hi Speed, Varied between 1 and 2 clicks out on Low Speed and 2 out on rebound. I used 150mm of travel on a flat jump landing of about 3 foot. 
Thoughts so far: 
Very smooth, An absolutely enormous improvement over the old Talas which is my only comparison.
Stayed high in the travel pumping through corners, flat out pedalling and small bumps.
No diving feel under braking, more of a controlled feeling allowing a smoother corner entry, 
I am riding a lot less "loose" and felt faster and smoother.
A lot more grip. A glued feeling from the front and improved grip on skatey gravel sweepers.
Happy so far :thumbsup:


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

ColinL said:


> that just blows my mind. have you serviced your damper? if not, I'd be curious if your damper is low.
> 
> ...because mine is as stiff as an XC fork at fully closed LSC and HBO. I haven't hit a 5 foot drop, but a 2 foot one will give no more than half-travel with 30% sag on my fork. it's also a bone-jarring ride.


I've had the fork for almost 3 months and haven't done anything but mess with the knobs and air pressure. I will say it takes a lot to bottom it out. I've only done it twice during normal riding. Once I dropped off one rock into the face of another, and the other was a very abrupt g-out at high speed. I run the LSC at max or one click from max because I do a lot of technical rock riding and it helps keep the fork from diving and sending me OTB. For normal trail riding I run the HBO full open and only one click of HSC. I only crank it up for the more spirited trails. The fork is on a Banshee Rune V2 with a ~64.7° head angle, which might explain the low sag % at that pressure.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Guys, I need your help. My low speed compression isn't effective anymore. What could be the reason ? 


Sam


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Guys, I need your help. My low speed compression isn't effective anymore. What could be the reason ?
> 
> Sam


Very odd. Maybe low oil?

If I remember correctly, you have had some issues with your fork. I wonder if you got a lemon? You may want to talk to Manitou directly.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

You're right. I had an issue. My rebound damper was dissassembled. I received the tools from CRC. I will check the oil level. Can you remember me what's the correct volume or height (and from were to measure it)? It's 5 WT oil weight, right?


Sam


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

5wt. If pro, 77mm from top. If expert, 80mm from top.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

So dougal, what is your weight and settings.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Trajan said:


> So dougal, what is your weight and settings.


From memory.

About 75kg with camel bak. 45 psi. 2 clicks lsc. 2 clicks hsc, one turn hbo and rebound on the fast side of halfway.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Samos said:


> Guys, I need your help. My low speed compression isn't effective anymore. What could be the reason ?
> 
> Sam


Any progress on this?

Sorry to say I've broken something in my fork. Whilst riding it suddenly went very stiff (almost locked up) and the stroke very rough. Babied it home and now it has freed up but the compression knobs no longer do anything. Will hopefully get time to pull out the damper and survey the damage tomorrow


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Any progress on this?
> 
> Sorry to say I've broken something in my fork. Whilst riding it suddenly went very stiff (almost locked up) and the stroke very rough. Babied it home and now it has freed up but the compression knobs no longer do anything. Will hopefully get time to pull out the damper and survey the damage tomorrow


Pull the compression damping and check the condition of your oil.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Any progress on this?
> 
> Sorry to say I've broken something in my fork. Whilst riding it suddenly went very stiff (almost locked up) and the stroke very rough. Babied it home and now it has freed up but the compression knobs no longer do anything. Will hopefully get time to pull out the damper and survey the damage tomorrow


Dude, sorry to hear that. The only thing I can think is that the damper oil has leaked into the lowers, causing a hydraulic lockout and loss of adjustments. Does the rebound still work?


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Did Manitou release a service manual for the wonderful Mattoc? I'm able to disassemble and reassemble it. But what's about the small tricks and hints ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

I checked the oil level and it was pretty low, ta about 90mm from top. Added until 77mm and seems to be fine.


Sam


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

But where did the oil go?


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

No idea, maybe was the level already a tad low...


Sam


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Samos said:


> I checked the oil level and it was pretty low, ta about 90mm from top. Added until 77mm and seems to be fine.
> 
> Sam


There are two places the oil could go.
One is between the stanchion tube and rebound cartridge tube.
Two is into the lowers.

The stock damper oil is blue and easy to spot in either of these locations.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

The rebound still functions and adjusts as per normal. It feels like there is still some compression, however, as I said, turning the knobs has no affect.

I pulled the damper out just before. The oil level has not changed and is at the correct 77mm. It looks okay. Something in the damper must be gone I guess

It's probably going to have to go back, but who wants to try and spot what's wrong with it, just for interest's sake? Probably hard with only pictures. I don't really know what to be looking for. There's nothing immediately obviously wrong to me (with my limited knowledge)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> The rebound still functions and adjusts as per normal. It feels like there is still some compression, however, as I said, turning the knobs has no affect.
> 
> I pulled the damper out just before. The oil level has not changed and is at the correct 77mm. It looks okay. Something in the damper must be gone I guess
> 
> It's probably going to have to go back, but who wants to try and spot what's wrong with it, just for interest's sake? Probably hard with only pictures. I don't really know what to be looking for. There's nothing immediately obviously wrong to me (with my limited knowledge)


So, if you put it the damper back, it still does not do anything? Also, how is the movement of the fork with the damper out - smoother?

Also, make sure you have some high speed dampening turned on, otherwise the low speed will have minimal impact. Try this, turn high speed to max and turn low speed to max, it should pretty much lock out the fork. Anything?


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

I had a quick look over the damper with a friend via Skype and everything appears to be functioning properly. 

After putting the fork back together I tried what you suggested Vespasianus and the LSC will work properly if the HSC is at 5 or 6 clicks (all the way) in. It will not function in the other HSC settings. The HSC does not appear to be working at all


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Bent shims?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Samos said:


> Did Manitou release a service manual for the wonderful Mattoc? I'm able to disassemble and reassemble it. But what's about the small tricks and hints ?
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


They were supposed to release a service video for the mattoc but that was back around Sea Otter that it was supposed to be posted. No idea what the deal is with the delay.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Dougal said:


> There are two places the oil could go.
> One is between the stanchion tube and rebound cartridge tube.
> Two is into the lowers.
> 
> The stock damper oil is blue and easy to spot in either of these locations.


Blue? I though the guys from Manitou had said the mattoc uses the same damper oil that the dorado uses which is Motorex that's the bright reddish pink color?


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

^^ Mine is a greenish colour



DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Bent shims?


There was one either side of the piston and they both looked okay to me.

It's hard to work out what is wrong with the thing so I'm going to send it back for warranty. I'll try and find out what the issue is once they've fixed/replaced it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reachcontrol said:


> So I've been really lazy guys, and haven't gotten a tear-down guide with pics together. Most all the info is already here in the thread, and I was in a hurry to get riding and didn't take pics when I had the fork apart last time for the upper swap.
> 
> My question is, when my travel spacers get here from Erik, and I tear the fork down for that, do you guys feel there is a real need for a step-by-step guide with pics?
> 
> ...


Rob, I think your guide is needed more now than ever!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Manitou told me the same thing when I was asking them about a rebuild guide for the McLeod shock back in January. At that point they were still working on production, which honestly can take a while if you are doing in-house vs. paying a company to do, and said it would be ready in late spring/early summer on the website. 

Hoping they release something soon as it is getting close to time for the first service of the McLeod.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

rhys.l said:


> I had a quick look over the damper with a friend via Skype and everything appears to be functioning properly.
> 
> After putting the fork back together I tried what you suggested Vespasianus and the LSC will work properly if the HSC is at 5 or 6 clicks (all the way) in. It will not function in the other HSC settings. The HSC does not appear to be working at all


Same for me. The LSC was working well, but with 3 or 4 clicks on the HSC. I tried without any HSC.... no LSC. I have only 4 or 5 clicks on the HSC. How much should I have ? According to Mattoc Setup Guide, 0-5, 6 clicks. Same for the HBO. For it I also have only 4 clicks.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Same for me. The LSC was working well, but with 3 or 4 clicks on the HSC. I tried without any HSC.... no LSC. I have only 4 or 5 clicks on the HSC. How much should I have ? According to Mattoc Setup Guide, 0-5, 6 clicks. Same for the HBO. For it I also have only 4 clicks.


I wonder if you could turn the knobs all the way counter-clockwise (minimal HSC, HBO and LS) and remove the knobs. Then, put the knobs back on but at a position that is 1-3 clicks in and turn again counter-clockwise to further reduce the settings.

My old Manitou Black had these rapid adjust knobs that were limited by the actual knobs, not the actual damper.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Not on this fork unfortunately.

On a side note, how good is CRC warranty? They are picking the fork up from my house (in Australia). Looks like it's going DHL Express so might not be all that long a turn around time either.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

rhys.l said:


> Not on this fork unfortunately.
> 
> On a side note, how good is CRC warranty? They are picking the fork up from my house (in Australia). Looks like it's going DHL Express so might not be all that long a turn around time either.


That is good to know. Not that I have a problem with my fork. But I also purchased from CRC and reside downunder :thumbsup:


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

CRC here to, but this time Canukistan.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Mine has 0-4 HSC too, with only the first two with an audible click.
LSC seems to work correctly, though, as I'm using 0/1 HSC and 2/3 LSC with 0/1 LSC being not supportive enough.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Any body notice that for the magnum, the HSC adjuster is now referred to as the IPA and is used to set the pedaling platform:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/magnum-pro-setup-guide.pdf

I don't think the compression assembly is any different between the mattock and magnum so not sure what to make of this.

I was under the impression that the LSC won't do anything unless you have some HSC. So, when HSC is set at 0/1, the LSC will have a very minimal feel. Am I wrong?


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Maybe with zero HSC there's no preload on the shims, so it blows under body weight bypassing the LSC circuit..


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Any body notice that for the magnum, the HSC adjuster is now referred to as the IPA and is used to set the pedaling platform:
> 
> http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/magnum-pro-setup-guide.pdf
> 
> ...


I've run my Mattoc with HSC set to minimum the majority of the time, experimenting with an additional 1 or 2 clicks now and then. Max LSC is very stiff-- massively different from minimum LSC even with HSC set to min.

Different issue: I got out a spare MILO remote I had and I don't see how it would mount to the Mattoc LSC adjuster. It isn't like the ABS+ MILO. Has anyone set up a MILO on their Mattoc, or asked Hayes about it?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here is how the compression damper works.

The HSC adjuster preloads the shims on the top of the piston.
The LSC adjuster controls a bypass around that.

I have seen dyno curves of the MC2 damper throughout it's stroke. Yes there is a high interdependence of one adjustment on the other.

Cranking the HSC to max with the LSC open won't be that noticable as the oil can bypass the preloaded shim stack.
Cranking the LSC to max with the HSC open does create a small platform effect as with the bypass closed the oil has to go through the lightly preloaded shim stack.

I'm not yet aware of remote kits for the Mattoc available for sale. Such a kit will need to include a return spring (for which there is space already reserved below the knobs).

The McLeod Remote Conversion kits are listed. Hmmmm.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Here is how the compression damper works.
> 
> The HSC adjuster preloads the shims on the top of the piston.
> The LSC adjuster controls a bypass around that.
> ...


Thanks Dougal, that is very useful information.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Here is how the compression damper works.
> 
> The HSC adjuster preloads the shims on the top of the piston.
> The LSC adjuster controls a bypass around that.
> ...


After looking at the damper the other day, it doesn't appear they have used a shim stack as such. There is only one HSC shim on top of the piston. I guess it is controlled/preloaded by a spring further up the assembly. With HSC fully open, the shim has around 1mm of free movement, and by 4 clicks in it cannot be separated from the piston by hand.

My best guess of the issue with my damper is something to do with the LSC needle. Looking up the bottom of the damper (up the HBO unit) the needle looks off centre, and whilst it's pretty hard to tell, it doesn't appear to be moving the way it should whilst adjusting the LSC. How this is affecting the HSC I don't know, but it was the most obvious thing short of pulling the damper to bits. If the fork didn't already have other issues I might have actually given that a go


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> After looking at the damper the other day, it doesn't appear they have used a shim stack as such. There is only one HSC shim on top of the piston. I guess it is controlled/preloaded by a spring further up the assembly. With HSC fully open, the shim has around 1mm of free movement, and by 4 clicks in it cannot be separated from the piston by hand.
> 
> My best guess of the issue with my damper is something to do with the LSC needle. Looking up the bottom of the damper (up the HBO unit) the needle looks off centre, and whilst it's pretty hard to tell, it doesn't appear to be moving the way it should whilst adjusting the LSC. How this is affecting the HSC I don't know, but it was the most obvious thing short of pulling the damper to bits. If the fork didn't already have other issues I might have actually given that a go


The needle in the bottom isn't lsc. It is hbo. That's why it doesn't behave like an lsc needle.

Yes there is a stack of compression shims. I have had mine in pieces.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Haha fair enough, had a real win there. Thanks for the info. 

Can you speculate on what could be wrong with my Mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Haha fair enough, had a real win there. Thanks for the info.
> 
> Can you speculate on what could be wrong with my Mattoc?


I can't tell anything about the compression damper without seeing it really. Go ahead and post it over if you want.

The Australian Manitou Agent is Apollo: Distributors | Hayes Components

But you did buy the fork from overseas mail-order so not sure how they'll feel about that.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I've run my Mattoc with HSC set to minimum the majority of the time, experimenting with an additional 1 or 2 clicks now and then. Max LSC is very stiff-- massively different from minimum LSC even with HSC set to min.
> 
> Different issue: I got out a spare MILO remote I had and I don't see how it would mount to the Mattoc LSC adjuster. It isn't like the ABS+ MILO. Has anyone set up a MILO on their Mattoc, or asked Hayes about it?


So, if I have the HSC off (all the way counter-clockise) and turn the LSC, I don't have much of an affect. I can barely feel any difference and what I feel may just be my imagination. Even at the highest level of LSC. However, if I add two clicks of the HSC, the LSC is very noticeable with a very stiff fork at max LSC.

Turning the HSC with the LSC off gives no real difference in feel (using the push test).

This is not a riding feeling but just a subjective pushing down on the fork. rhys.l, is this what you notice as well?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I can't feel any HSC difference just pushing on the fork. I simply can't compress the fork fast enough.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I can't feel any HSC difference just pushing on the fork. I simply can't compress the fork fast enough.


Agreed. I run my fork with 2 clicks of HSC. I feel it gives a smoother feel than with the HSC all the way out.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

My damper removal and oil change guide is live. Check it out and let me know if it's of any use.

Still loving the info in this thread!!! Thanks guys. I've torn both my Mattocs apart and put them back together, changed uppers on one, experimented with travel, and put Motorex in both forks. They still feel great and we're looking forward to getting some out locally and keeping them serviced for our customers.

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Couple of things I noticed:
1. It's good to mention that unthreading the rebound and air shaft from the lowers is done CLOCKWISE.
2. Something's missing - you remove the damper from the top, you mention the oil is aerated and in the next step you pour new oil in....
3. When removing the damper there'd be quite a bit of resistance and it should be done by wiggling the damper and pulling it out real slow, otherwise you might damage the o-ring and spill oil everywhere, including your eyes.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Nice job ReachControl. Maybe add torque details or at least some idea of where to be careful. As the shafts screw into the soft metal of the lowers on this fork, I think it's pretty important to not overtorque them. Definitely the info about the clockwise to loosen and vice versa as mentioned above.



Vespasianus said:


> So, if I have the HSC off (all the way counter-clockise) and turn the LSC, I don't have much of an affect. I can barely feel any difference and what I feel may just be my imagination. Even at the highest level of LSC. However, if I add two clicks of the HSC, the LSC is very noticeable with a very stiff fork at max LSC.
> 
> Turning the HSC with the LSC off gives no real difference in feel (using the push test).
> 
> This is not a riding feeling but just a subjective pushing down on the fork. rhys.l, is this what you notice as well?


My fork has next to no LSC until 5 clicks of HSC are wound on. Before it broke, I think it behaved something like you mentioned (I never ran less than 2 HSC so not 100% sure).

The HSC doesn't work at all now, regardless of the LSC postion. You might not be able to feel the difference just pushing on the fork, but cruising around a carpark or whatever you should definitely be able to feel the extra mid stroke resistance. Particularly going from zero clicks to six clicks. It was very obvious to me anyway, which is why I am confident it is now not working.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

rhys.l said:


> Nice job ReachControl. Maybe add torque details or at least some idea of where to be careful. As the shafts screw into the soft metal of the lowers on this fork, I think it's pretty important to not overtorque them.


Most of that info is present in the Mattoc Travel Adjust guide, although I'm not sure there's a torque wrench that works in counter-clockwise direction as well...


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Sure is, however I think it's worth including because what Reachcontrol has done is more than good enough as a stand-alone guide. 

I don't use a torque wrench on mine, again I just think it might be worth mentioning for new people getting this fork. It's a little different to on your Fox compressing down a new crush washer with your foot nuts, or doing the foot nuts up nice and tight to get an older crush washer to seal properly. 

Just some thoughts anyway.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reachcontrol said:


> My damper removal and oil change guide is live. Check it out and let me know if it's of any use.
> 
> Still loving the info in this thread!!! Thanks guys. I've torn both my Mattocs apart and put them back together, changed uppers on one, experimented with travel, and put Motorex in both forks. They still feel great and we're looking forward to getting some out locally and keeping them serviced for our customers.
> 
> https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


Very nice job! One thing that I did not do is to fill the damper and move the rebound shaft up and down. Do you think if I don't drop the lowers (or remove the front wheel), can I just pump the fork 20-30 times and achieve the same thing?


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Thanks for the comments guys. I added a few things and clarified, took care of some typos.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Very nice job! One thing that I did not do is to fill the damper and move the rebound shaft up and down. Do you think if I don't drop the lowers (or remove the front wheel), can I just pump the fork 20-30 times and achieve the same thing?


My concern here would be not getting full extension of the shaft into the upper tube while cycling. If you imagine the bleed syringes from, say, an Avid brake, you can hold one and pull out on the other and air bubbles show up out of the fluid. The potential to have air all the way down into the rebound shaft is there, and the ability to get the full stroke may be helpful.

If you have found different, however, I'm always happy to hear of these things.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Air bubbles rise. So full extension of the rebound shaft isn't needed. 

These dampers are self bleeding. Once it has been used all the air will be at the top.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reachcontrol said:


> My concern here would be not getting full extension of the shaft into the upper tube while cycling. If you imagine the bleed syringes from, say, an Avid brake, you can hold one and pull out on the other and air bubbles show up out of the fluid. The potential to have air all the way down into the rebound shaft is there, and the ability to get the full stroke may be helpful.
> 
> If you have found different, however, I'm always happy to hear of these things.


No I think you are right. I was just hoping to "cheat" and get away without dropping the lowers. My fork feels great right now and I think I will wait a few months to do any more maintenance.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Air bubbles rise. So full extension of the rebound shaft isn't needed.
> 
> These dampers are self bleeding. Once it has been used all the air will be at the top.


Yes, I know, air bubbles rise. They also stick to stuff. I do remember reading in this thread that the dampers were "self-bleeding" this but was told by Manitou that this is not the clearest way to describe what's going on in the damper. Either way, if you do it differently and it works for you, that's the goal - to get the bike on the trail.

This brings up another thought Dougal - if you do an oil change, and then ride your fork, would it not make sense to open it up again to top off the oil? That seems a good bit of information or maintenance to keep in mind.

I did send my page link into Hayes Service to see if Erik has anything to add or change.

cheers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Reachcontrol said:


> Yes, I know, air bubbles rise. They also stick to stuff. I do remember reading in this thread that the dampers were "self-bleeding" this but was told by Manitou that this is not the clearest way to describe what's going on in the damper. Either way, if you do it differently and it works for you, that's the goal - to get the bike on the trail.
> 
> This brings up another thought Dougal - if you do an oil change, and then ride your fork, would it not make sense to open it up again to top off the oil? That seems a good bit of information or maintenance to keep in mind.
> 
> ...


It takes an awful lot of air bubbles to change the oil level enough that a top-off is needed.

Also keep in mind Manitou TPC/TPC+/ABS/ABS+/MC2 dampers almost never need an oil change.
There is a big volume of oil, all wear surfaces are well designed to not create debris and it is sealed from the outside world. Oil usually stays clean and clear for many many years of riding.

It is the lower leg splash bath that needs the most maintenance.

I only changed the oil in my Mattoc damper because I screwed up, spilt some and didn't have the same blue oil to replace it. I was expecting a continuous sealed cartridge to come out the top complete like a Nixon/Travis so I had the fork horizontal. 
Instead unscrewing the top opens the damper and can spill oil.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Also keep in mind Manitou TPC/TPC+/ABS/ABS+/MC2 dampers almost never need an oil change.
> There is a big volume of oil, all wear surfaces are well designed to not create debris and it is sealed from the outside world. Oil usually stays clean and clear for many many years of riding.
> 
> It is the lower leg splash bath that needs the most maintenance.


I was supremely impressed with the design and the internals on the fork as a whole. Especially after taking training seminars with Fox Tech to get up to speed on rebuilding FiT cartridges. The Charger damper is a similar PITA.

My reason for opening was the need to change the uppers due to a combination blunder on my part and my idiot desire to know what's going on in there. Great stuff! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Thought I would share a pic of my bike. Very happy with the Mattoc so far. Been running it at 1 or 2 clicks of both low and speed compression @ 76psi.Its sooo smoooth and offers quite good platform for me without even having to ramp up the low speed. 1 click of HBO works well but bottomed out once on a downhill drop so will turn it to 2 from now on the rougher trails.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

What is everyone using for lowers oil on the pros? Would fox gold work?


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Fox gold would be fine. I'm using 15W Motul Expert.

Not having much luck with that picture Seemus?!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

92SE-R said:


> What is everyone using for lowers oil on the pros? Would fox gold work?


I'm using motorex supergliss.

It's the best lube I've found. Supply can be tricky. But I buy it by the drum now.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Motorex Supergliss here too, quite easy to get in Europe.

Fox Gold should be similar.


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Whats the stock lowers oil, damper oil, and you guys seem to recommend grease for air spring?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

92SE-R said:


> Whats the stock lowers oil, damper oil, and you guys seem to recommend grease for air spring?


Stock lowers oil is Manitou Semi-Bath oil. Which is a Motorex product.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Woops


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

92SE-R said:


> Whats the stock lowers oil, damper oil, and you guys seem to recommend grease for air spring?


For the air piston, I used a very thin coating of slick honey.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

I've had issues with the damper ingesting the fox gold oil. I'm looking for a substitute for damper side splash oil. I'm thinking I'll just use motorex


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

croakies said:


> I've had issues with the damper ingesting the fox gold oil. I'm looking for a substitute for damper side splash oil. I'm thinking I'll just use motorex


Wait, the damper or air spring? The damper is closed on the bottom so I would be surprised if oil leaked into it (without leaking out).


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

The damper, it started hydrolocking. I was surprised too as you would think with the pressure in the damper being higher than the lowers, oil would get out not in. What I am thinking is that the gold clings to the damper shaft, gets past the seal, then dissolves into the damper oil over time. Didn't seem like any oil got into the air spring so I am still using it there.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

It would be the same cause as ingestion on the air side. The volume in the lowers gets increasingly smaller the further you get into the travel, and close to bottom out, the compressible volume will be quite small (how small depends on how much lower oil you are running) and therefore pressure high. Oil is going to want to move from an area of high pressure to low pressure, so it will get into your neg spring or in this case your damper.

What you can do is try running slightly less lower oil, as this will increase the available volume in your lowers. I'm still surprised it's happening with Fox gold as it's 20wt? I was going to suggest running thicker oil too but maybe not


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Seemus7 said:


> Woops


Yes, we demand pics!


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

rhys.l said:


> It would be the same cause as ingestion on the air side. The volume in the lowers gets increasingly smaller the further you get into the travel, and close to bottom out, the compressible volume will be quite small (how small depends on how much lower oil you are running) and therefore pressure high. Oil is going to want to move from an area of high pressure to low pressure, so it will get into your neg spring or in this case your damper.
> 
> What you can do is try running slightly less lower oil, as this will increase the available volume in your lowers. I'm still surprised it's happening with Fox gold as it's 20wt? I was going to suggest running thicker oil too but maybe not


Could be, but does not seem to be the case here. I used the recommended 15ml in the lowers and could bottom out the fork easily once the damper was bled so if anything the hydrolocking damper would be at much higher pressure than lowers.

The reason I think it was not an issue air spring side is because there is no oil past the seal head to dissolve the thin film clinging to the shaft. I don't think the oil weight is the issue as I understand motorex semi bath is a similar cst. The gold oil is just really freaking tacky.

I'm curious to see if this has happened to anyone else.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

so is there any solid fix for the not using full travel issue? ive set my adjustments, experimented with air pressure, im down to just under 50lb and I am about 175-180 geared up, still only getting about 60-65%


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Finally worked it out! The bike is getting there now. Zee brakes, Answer Bars, MATTOC! just a few mods to go and I will be happy.







[/URL]


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Looking good. How wide did you go with bars? 
I've got some geometry issues with my demo bike and the Protaper 780's really helped bully it through tight spots.

Yet on my other bikes the old 680's are plenty.


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## Eld (Jan 28, 2014)

Nice bars


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Looking good. How wide did you go with bars?
> I've got some geometry issues with my demo bike and the Protaper 780's really helped bully it through tight spots.
> 
> Yet on my other bikes the old 680's are plenty.


Still at 780. I thought i would cut em down a bit, but i really like the feel of them now. 
They certainly provide more leverage on fast technical tracks.



Eld said:


> Nice bars


Nice bike mate :thumbsup: Gold bars look the goods


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

croakies said:


> Could be, but does not seem to be the case here. I used the recommended 15ml in the lowers and could bottom out the fork easily once the damper was bled so if anything the hydrolocking damper would be at much higher pressure than lowers.
> 
> The reason I think it was not an issue air spring side is because there is no oil past the seal head to dissolve the thin film clinging to the shaft. I don't think the oil weight is the issue as I understand motorex semi bath is a similar cst. The gold oil is just really freaking tacky.
> 
> I'm curious to see if this has happened to anyone else.


Perhaps at that stroke position, the pressure underneath the rebound piston is actually lower, allowing the oil transfer. It's just hard for me to see the method you describe as leading to that sort of oil transfer occurring over a short period of time. I don't know, Dougal probably does.

I had oil transfer happening from the lowers into the neg spring on the air side. I know it 100% came from the lowers because I had previously rebuilt the air spring sans oil. The method of transfer I described above works here because deep in the stroke the neg spring volume is high (and pressures low) in contrast to high pressures in the lowers, allowing the oil to transfer. I'm trying 10ml in the air side to see if it helps


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Nice bikes guys. Here's mine


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> so is there any solid fix for the not using full travel issue? ive set my adjustments, experimented with air pressure, im down to just under 50lb and I am about 175-180 geared up, still only getting about 60-65%


Make sure you use only ~2mls of oil on top of the air piston. Also, make sure you set the damper oil at 77mm for the Pro and 80 mm for the expert.

Even with these settings, it will take a massive hit to get a full 160mm of travel. I have seen close to 150mm on a jump I screwed up but normally I see about 140 of travel during most rides. With that said, the travel feels bottomless.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> I had oil transfer happening from the lowers into the neg spring on the air side. I know it 100% came from the lowers because I had previously rebuilt the air spring sans oil. The method of transfer I described above works here because deep in the stroke the neg spring volume is high (and pressures low) in contrast to high pressures in the lowers, allowing the oil to transfer. I'm trying 10ml in the air side to see if it helps


Oil isn't going to transfer in those conditions. It simply can't build enough pressure to get past the seal.

What could happen is a film of oil sticks to the shaft and a tiny amount gets past the seal on every stroke. This happens on the Dorado, oil volumes in the air spring increase and volumes in the leg decrease.
I'm seeing about 10-15cc transferred in a Dorado over a years riding. I only know this on service records for the same forks coming back.

I don't think this happens on my Mattoc for two reasons:
Firstly the Mattoc air spring is up the other way so bath oil isn't continually covering the seal and shaft.
Secondly my bath oil was cloudy from break-in debris. The oil in my air spring was completely clean.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Fair enough. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. My negative spring gained 5+ml from the lowers after about 4 weeks of riding. Perhaps that inner seal around the shaft was faulty, however testing it by hand with oil it appeared to be wiping very effectively.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

If the seal was faulty, you'd lose all negative air pressure straight away.

It is quite hard to get all the oil out of an air shaft. The Dorado has a fancy lightweight end-cap on the spring which is hollow and holds oil. I didn't check if the Mattoc is the same. I do have a Dorado air leg on the bench removed last week. Wiped clean several times and it is still dripping oil into a pan a week later.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> Nice bikes guys. Here's mine


Nice! Did you ever find out what happened to your fork?


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Mine


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Me and mine. This fork is beyond great really. Damper performance is spot on. Can't say enough good things about it.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

If anyone's looking to buy a Mattoc you can get them here super cheap right now.
mattoc Bike-Discount


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice! Did you ever find out what happened to your fork?


I haven't heard yet. I've cracked my frame so no rush any more haha


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

lanceuppercut said:


> If anyone's looking to buy a Mattoc you can get them here super cheap right now.
> mattoc Bike-Discount


holy crap. mildly tempted to upgrade to a Pro and sell my Expert.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

ColinL said:


> holy crap. mildly tempted to upgrade to a Pro and sell my Expert.


At these prices you can't afford not to!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lanceuppercut said:


> At these prices you can't afford not to!


At least in the USA, Manitou offers a program that will allow you to trade in your old manitou fork (no mater how old) for a new one for 40% off - which results in a $510 price for the Mattoc pro.

So, if you have an old Manitou laying around, trade it in!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Make sure you use only ~2mls of oil on top of the air piston. Also, make sure you set the damper oil at 77mm for the Pro and 80 mm for the expert.
> 
> Even with these settings, it will take a massive hit to get a full 160mm of travel. I have seen close to 150mm on a jump I screwed up but normally I see about 140 of travel during most rides. With that said, the travel feels bottomless.


Well, today I hit close to 157mm of travel. Not 160 but pretty damn close. I hit a jump but did not notice the small rock ledge right after my landing. Hit the ledge hard and the fork saved my ass. The fork is really loosening up and is actually getting plusher.

So yes, confirming what others have said, you will use full travel when you really need it. Otherwise, the fork will stay in its sweet spot and keep you out of trouble!


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> Well, today I hit close to 157mm of travel. Not 160 but pretty damn close. I hit a jump but did not notice the small rock ledge right after my landing. Hit the ledge hard and the fork saved my ass. The fork is really loosening up and is actually getting plusher.
> 
> So yes, confirming what others have said, you will use full travel when you really need it. Otherwise, the fork will stay in its sweet spot and keep you out of trouble!


Anyone got a guide for checking the oil levels. It's just so annoying to only use 90mm of my fork. Took it down black mountain in Pisgah and just not even close to 140. If if was ever gona use its travel it would have been there


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> Anyone got a guide for checking the oil levels. It's just so annoying to only use 90mm of my fork. Took it down black mountain in Pisgah and just not even close to 140. If if was ever gona use its travel it would have been there


Yes:

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/

The directions and hints on that site are 100% spot on. As the site says, the oil levels should be 77mm from the top for the Pro and 80mm from the top for the expert.

I am about 200lbs and run the fork with ~55 PSI, two clicks of HSC, one click of LSC, one click of bottom out and rebound 4-5 in from full fast, as a reference. This is giving me ~45mm of sag.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

huge props once again for the link! I was at 60mm from the threads instead of 80mm. little handlebar push and omg the it feels like a new fork already. cant wait to dial it and test it out tomorrow. really easy job to do, I didn't pull the lowers, just the top cap in case anyone else wants to give it a shot. 15mm job max


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

obs08 said:


> huge props once again for the link! I was at 60mm from the threads instead of 80mm. little handlebar push and omg the it feels like a new fork already. cant wait to dial it and test it out tomorrow. really easy job to do, I didn't pull the lowers, just the top cap in case anyone else wants to give it a shot. 15mm job max


You measured from where?


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Dougal said:


> You measured from where?


 Bottom of threads as stated in the link. I had a shop lower the travel when I first got it so it's possible they put way go much in


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Fudge, it says top of threads doesn't it?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

obs08 said:


> Bottom of threads as stated in the link. I had a shop lower the travel when I first got it so it's possible they put way go much in





obs08 said:


> Fudge, it says top of threads doesn't it?


Um, yeah.

Forget the threads. It's measured from the top of the stanchion.
I hope you kept that 20mm of oil you took out, you'll need most of it for the compression damping to work properly.


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Um, yeah.
> 
> Forget the threads. It's measured from the top of the stanchion.
> I hope you kept that 20mm of oil you took out, you'll need most of it for the compression damping to work properly.


No need for the attitude bro. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. So when I pop the top cap off, I measure from right at the top there? Most likely just going to fill the fork back up and sell it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> Fudge, it says top of threads doesn't it?


obs08, I would check it again from the top of the stanchion and try to get close to 77 or 80 mm (depending upon the fork). With that said, I would even say, how does it feel? Does the compression work? Turn the knobs all the way clockwise, does the fork almost feel locked out?

Also, what kind of pressure are you using?


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## trekninja (Oct 22, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> obs08, I would check it again from the top of the stanchion and try to get close to 77 or 80 mm (depending upon the fork). With that said, I would even say, how does it feel? Does the compression work? Turn the knobs all the way clockwise, does the fork almost feel locked out?
> 
> Also, what kind of pressure are you using?


Fork actually feel amazing. It's smooth and easy, not stiff like it felt before. All the adjustments have the correct amount of clicks and turn easily. Before I was using about 45psi and with hear and a camelbak I'm close to 180. Right now I have it at 60psi and it feels nice. I'm going to just take it on a real easy ride and see how it feels


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> Fork actually feel amazing. It's smooth and easy, not stiff like it felt before. All the adjustments have the correct amount of clicks and turn easily. Before I was using about 45psi and with hear and a camelbak I'm close to 180. Right now I have it at 60psi and it feels nice. I'm going to just take it on a real easy ride and see how it feels


I think that is a great idea. If the compression adjustments still work, I bet you did a better job than you think with the damper oil!

I have only had my fork for about a month and I think that at this point, it is finally broken in. The last 10% of travel is really reserved for big, ass saving, hits.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi All, I have 4 rides on my mattoc pro so far and I am impressed. I had fox 36 rc2 float '09 before. I haven't noticed difference in stifness. But the difference in damping is unbelievable, mattoc simply tracks ground much better than fox did. The rebound does not kick even if set very fast. I'm simply enjoying this fork. I had no troubles with reducing travel and I already checked oil level, which was 76mm from top. LSC adjuster does not seem to do anything unless I set 2 clicks of HSC. Then it feels like adjustable platform. Since I don't use LSC/platform I don't care as long as HSC and HBO works, and it does. 
My favourite track (lots of big rocks and roots) seems too easy now. Looking for new challenges


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Hi All, I have 4 rides on my mattoc pro so far and I am impressed. I had fox 36 rc2 float '09 before. I haven't noticed difference in stifness. But the difference in damping is unbelievable, mattoc simply tracks ground much better than fox did. The rebound does not kick even if set very fast. I'm simply enjoying this fork. I had no troubles with reducing travel and I already checked oil level, which was 76mm from top. LSC adjuster does not seem to do anything unless I set 2 clicks of HSC. Then it feels like adjustable platform. Since I don't use LSC/platform I don't care as long as HSC and HBO works, and it does.
> My favourite track (lots of big rocks and roots) seems too easy now. Looking for new challenges


Yes, the LSC won't feel much different in a push test unless the HSC is clicked out a few as well. Nice to know you got a fork with the correct oil level! Enjoy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

For those interested. I did a pre-delivery check on a new Mattoc last week. Oil level in the damper was perfect.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

obs08 said:


> Fork actually feel amazing. It's smooth and easy, not stiff like it felt before. All the adjustments have the correct amount of clicks and turn easily. Before I was using about 45psi and with hear and a camelbak I'm close to 180. Right now I have it at 60psi and it feels nice. I'm going to just take it on a real easy ride and see how it feels


Hey obs08, any luck?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Still loving this fork. Hope the people who are having problems get their forks sorted. As my fork has broken in, I have had to add more air to maintain the ride and am now back to 75 psi. The fork remains very plush and controlled. I still can't get over how well this fork just eats up chunk and maintains its composure.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Um, yeah.
> 
> Forget the threads. It's measured from the top of the stanchion.
> I hope you kept that 20mm of oil you took out, you'll need most of it for the compression damping to work properly.


Dougal, I was told directly to use top of threads. Also had Tech Support look over guide and response was "That guide looks pretty spot on, whoever wrote that must have been talking directly with me."

Seems pertinent to clarify this, and get it updated on my site either way. Can you elaborate or provide some insight?

Thanks. I was also given a little more info from Manitou that I will amend into post tonight.

My fork is feeling perfect now that I've got compression settings sorted. Been to Tahoe, Downieville, and several other Nor Cal spots and both my Mattoc's are performing like champs. Much improved over my Pike and Fox 34.

Calling Erik now to clarify.....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Reachcontrol said:


> Dougal, I was told directly to use top of threads. Also had Tech Support look over guide and response was "That guide looks pretty spot on, whoever wrote that must have been talking directly with me."
> 
> Seems pertinent to clarify this, and get it updated on my site either way. Can you elaborate or provide some insight?
> 
> ...


The threads to go basically to the top of the stanchion. There is a small chamfer. The stanchion however stops a little before the top of the crown.

I don't usually mention threads because you can guarantee someone will measure from the wrong end of the threads.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I love mine, too. A few people have commented that their LSC doesn't seem to work unless they have at least 2 clicks of HSC. Mine isn't like that and I have a huge variation between 1 and 5 clicks of LSC no matter what HSC is set to (for me, usually open).

Weird thought:
I really like the 'manitou' on the right leg better than the graphics on the left leg. I've actually considered buying the decal kit to put another manitou on the left.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Dougal said:


> The threads to go basically to the top of the stanchion. There is a small chamfer. The stanchion however stops a little before the top of the crown.
> 
> I don't usually mention threads because you can guarantee someone will measure from the wrong end of the threads.


You make an excellent point. I'll change the language to prevent future confusion.

Thanks for the clarify!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> I love mine, too. A few people have commented that their LSC doesn't seem to work unless they have at least 2 clicks of HSC. Mine isn't like that and I have a huge variation between 1 and 5 clicks of LSC no matter what HSC is set to (for me, usually open).


I think that is your level of perception.
I too can feel the difference of each click of LSC. But other people riding my fork can't until they click up the HSC.

Some people can't tell when a fork is seized!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I love mine, too. A few people have commented that their LSC doesn't seem to work unless they have at least 2 clicks of HSC. Mine isn't like that and I have a huge variation between 1 and 5 clicks of LSC no matter what HSC is set to (for me, usually open).
> 
> Weird thought:
> I really like the 'manitou' on the right leg better than the graphics on the left leg. I've actually considered buying the decal kit to put another manitou on the left.


On the trail, I can feel the difference between clicks on LSC even without any HSC as well. I also agree with the Manitou decal - looks very cool.


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

Ok guys,

I added a couple updates to the Oil Service post. I have implemented said suggestions, and well, it just makes the fork feel that much better.....

Thanks for comments on here as well. It's appreciated.

Cheers.

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reachcontrol said:


> Ok guys,
> 
> I added a couple updates to the Oil Service post. I have implemented said suggestions, and well, it just makes the fork feel that much better.....
> 
> ...


Great job. MTBR should dump the rep system and replace it with a way to send an individual a beer. You deserve one - maybe two! Thanks again for this.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Reach, one of the things that you now mention at the end is this:

"Fully extend the fork with the pump connected before filling with air. If the fork is not fully extended it will have this dead stroke feeling."

I have found that it is best to do this when the fork is empty of air. When there is air in the fork, I found that that extending the fork still left a slight dead stroke (maybe a few mm). However, if you do this when the air is completely removed, it will eliminate the dead spot, just like you mentioned.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

I've been offered a replacement for my fork, and it looks like I'll be jumping ship to a Pike. It will be interesting to see if I regret this or not. At the very least I'll be able to do a good comparison on the two!


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## Reachcontrol (Feb 21, 2014)

rhys.l said:


> I've been offered a replacement for my fork, and it looks like I'll be jumping ship to a Pike. It will be interesting to see if I regret this or not. At the very least I'll be able to do a good comparison on the two!


I went through 3 Pike RCT3s before I gave up (a 26 inch dual air and then 2 650B Solo Airs). I still have my trusty old Pike 426 U-Turn Coil though!

After a cumulative 550 miles on 2 different Mattocs, and sampling the 36, new 34 (and old 34), Pike, and Marz 350 I'm happy to stay with my Manitou Bouncy bits. Even converted a few others locally!

You should absolutely give feedback on your pros and cons! A fair cop for all I say. Keeps things moving forward!


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

First ride after the service and i feel like&#8230;what was i riding all that time? Perfect dumping, extra support and NO stiction at all. I mean ..the fork was almost perfect before .But now&#8230;no words.

When i opened the positive air-chamber there was no oil at all.Not a single drop. Unfortunatelly all of the semi-bath oil was in the negative chamber and there was too much oil inside. What is more the rebound safety lock that holds the 2 springs was out of place.Fortunatelly the springs and the 2 little balls were in their place. One the spring side the upper rubber bumper not the bottom out one was teared off nand i had to changed it. Since i did not have the actual spare part i replaced it with 2 thicn o-rings. First test was OK and actually i did not notice any deference when bottoming out the fork.
I replenish the semi-bath oil with 10cc of lighter torco 20w oil (60cst @40C intead of [email protected] of 5-40 motorex) in each lower leg. I did something different in the spring side though. Instead of using Prep-M or Slik honey or any other super fine grease, I used 100,000 cst silikone oil both in the o-rings and the positive air chamber. I used 1,5 cc intead of 3cc of semi-bath oil. This product is so thick and it stays all over the surfaces once spashed, so i believe that is the best solution for having the least oil migration from one chamber to another, plus is neutral and has excellent lubrication properties.
I will opened oit again in few weeks and i will inform you with more inside results through https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

haristheodoropoulos said:


> First ride after the service and i feel like&#8230;what was i riding all that time? Perfect dumping, extra support and NO stiction at all. I mean ..the fork was almost perfect before .But now&#8230;no words.
> 
> When i opened the positive air-chamber there was no oil at all.Not a single drop. Unfortunatelly all of the semi-bath oil was in the negative chamber and there was too much oil inside. What is more the rebound safety lock that holds the 2 springs was out of place.Fortunatelly the springs and the 2 little balls were in their place. One the spring side the upper rubber bumper not the bottom out one was teared off nand i had to changed it. Since i did not have the actual spare part i replaced it with 2 thicn o-rings. First test was OK and actually i did not notice any deference when bottoming out the fork.
> I replenish the semi-bath oil with 10cc of lighter torco 20w oil (60cst @40C intead of [email protected] of 5-40 motorex) in each lower leg. I did something different in the spring side though. Instead of using Prep-M or Slik honey or any other super fine grease, I used 100,000 cst silikone oil both in the o-rings and the positive air chamber. I used 1,5 cc intead of 3cc of semi-bath oil. This product is so thick and it stays all over the surfaces once spashed, so i believe that is the best solution for having the least oil migration from one chamber to another, plus is neutral and has excellent lubrication properties.
> ...


Not 100% sure I understand your post, but it sounds like you got your fork sorted and it is working much better? Did you rebuild it once and had to rebuild it again?


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

I rebuilt my fork once and now it is a lot better. I just made some changes ( the rubber bumper, use of silicone oil) that are not in manitou sevice guides and i am waiting to see the results after some rides. So far everyrhing is perfect


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

One question: which cassette tool are people using to open up the air chamber? I need to change travel on my fork, and the Manitou toolkit out here is a bit more expensive than I had originally hoped (converts back to about $80).

I saw the Park FR1.2 mentioned earlier in the thread, but unless I'm missing something I don't see how this tool wil engage the splines in the Mattoc's innners (the tool has freewheel type splines, not cassette type splines).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhys.l said:


> I've been offered a replacement for my fork, and it looks like I'll be jumping ship to a Pike. It will be interesting to see if I regret this or not. At the very least I'll be able to do a good comparison on the two!


Yes, please give us your ride report. I have a reba on my sons 29'er (we share) and that is a very nice fork. If the pike is like that but just bigger and stronger, it will be a very nice fork.

My Mattoc gets better every day. I really think this forks needs a good while to break in - not like 25 hours but closer to 50 hours.


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> Reach, one of the things that you now mention at the end is this:
> 
> "Fully extend the fork with the pump connected before filling with air. If the fork is not fully extended it will have this dead stroke feeling."
> 
> I have found that it is best to do this when the fork is empty of air. When there is air in the fork, I found that that extending the fork still left a slight dead stroke (maybe a few mm). However, if you do this when the air is completely removed, it will eliminate the dead spot, just like you mentioned.


Where exactly is this dead spot that you are mentioning? Is it in the beginning of the stroke?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gpgalanis said:


> Where exactly is this dead spot that you are mentioning? Is it in the beginning of the stroke?


Yes. Just a few mm maybe. The key is to completely deflate the fork (do upside down). Lay the bike down on its side and extend the legs as far down as they will go. Now, pump up the fork to the desired air pressure. With the pump still attached, make sure the fork is fully extended. Remove pump and ride.

To see if you have a dead spot. Just pull your front wheel off the ground and try to push down on the legs, if they extend a little bit - maybe a few mm - you have a dead spot. Don't actually think it changes much of anything but I feel better knowing it is not there!


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## gpgalanis (Apr 7, 2015)

Great I will try it. Just a question. Should the pump be also extended or nor when I check of the fork is extended?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

eric said:


> One question: which cassette tool are people using to open up the air chamber? I need to change travel on my fork, and the Manitou toolkit out here is a bit more expensive than I had originally hoped (converts back to about $80).
> 
> I saw the Park FR1.2 mentioned earlier in the thread, but unless I'm missing something I don't see how this tool wil engage the splines in the Mattoc's innners (the tool has freewheel type splines, not cassette type splines).


You want something that looks more like the Park FR-5. The FR 1.2 looks nothing like what you need.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> You want something that looks more like the Park FR-5. The FR 1.2 looks nothing like what you need.


Yes. Park FR5.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

If you already have a cassette tool and don't want to spend money unnecessarily, it might be worth trying your current one out first. The old random cassette tool I had lying around in my tool box did the job perfectly fine without modification - not like you actually need a FR5 (or the Manitou version).

I agree with the suggested pumping method. I never noticed any dead spots but I did find the fork felt much better if I completely removed air (compressing the fork whilst depressing pump air release button) and started from scratch before modifying air pressures.



Vespasianus said:


> Yes, please give us your ride report. I have a reba on my sons 29'er (we share) and that is a very nice fork. If the pike is like that but just bigger and stronger, it will be a very nice fork.
> 
> My Mattoc gets better every day. I really think this forks needs a good while to break in - not like 25 hours but closer to 50 hours.


Shall do. I've got a Reba as well which I like. I'm sure it's not a particularly new experience on here (going between Pike and Mattoc), but it will be interesting all the same.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Have ordered a Mattoc Expert and going to change the travel out of the box, cannot source Semi-Bath or Supergliss in Aus, on a local forum one of the members uses a heavy 15w fork oil for this? Take this would be ok to do?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I believe that Manitou uses such a thick bath oil to keep it on the sliding bits rather than flying around. That's the only purpose I could imagine.

I'd just use synthentic 5W40 motor oil as it will be closer. Should have Castrol Edge or Mobil1 at a local auto parts store, right?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

ColinL said:


> I believe that Manitou uses such a thick bath oil to keep it on the sliding bits rather than flying around. That's the only purpose I could imagine.
> 
> I'd just use synthentic 5W40 motor oil as it will be closer. Should have Castrol Edge or Mobil1 at a local auto parts store, right?


Thanks for the reply, I have some Neo Synthetic 10W40 in the cupboard, might be a touch heavy, will pop into local auto store when the time comes and grab a small bottle of 5W40.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Have ordered a Mattoc Expert and going to change the travel out of the box, cannot source Semi-Bath or Supergliss in Aus, on a local forum one of the members uses a heavy 15w fork oil for this? Take this would be ok to do?


I post to Australia.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

But will the FR5 actually fit? It looks to me like it's too shallow to allow the remaining parts of the air spring's push rod to fit in.

I found a cheapo Lifu one which will probably fit, since it has a 20x20 mm cylindrical space inside, followed by a 12 mm square hole (where a 1/2" wrench would slot in). That looks to be about enough.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

I've tried 5W40 Total Quartz 9000 synthetic oil with [email protected], which is pretty close to Manitou's semi-bath and it migrated to the neg chamber as well. I've been using slick honey only since and the air spring works flawlessly.
Apart from pure corporate interests, does anyone have an idea why Manitou's tech discourage the use of slick honey? AFAIK it's petroleum based, is m-prep synthetic?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eric said:


> But will the FR5 actually fit? It looks to me like it's too shallow to allow the remaining parts of the air spring's push rod to fit in.
> 
> I found a cheapo Lifu one which will probably fit, since it has a 20x20 mm cylindrical space inside, followed by a 12 mm square hole (where a 1/2" wrench would slot in). That looks to be about enough.


The official manitou tool is a slotted FR5. I haven't yet tried an un-slotted one to see if it will work.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Cheers. It looks like the FR5 is slotted and drilled out. I'll see what I can find and machine it if necessary.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have used an FR5 no problem when working on my Mattoc Expert. I am not sure what the slot is for, to be honest.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Does anybody know how wide the slot has to be? Or whats the diameter of air piston shaft?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

I used a standard Unslotted cassette tool for working on mine.
You just have to make sure you have one with a large inside hole.

I also had to remove all spacers from the air piston and compress it completely to allow the tool to fit over the bottom air valve and reach the sealhead.


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I just want to be sure that I have right tools before I open it. Just to be sure, I ordered FR-5.
Thanks


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

ColinL was on the money! Got an email back from Manitou and they advised they use full synthetic 5W40 motor oil for the semi bath, makes it nice and easy to source. 

Thanks Dougal for the offer to post, just a bit easier to grab the oil from local auto parts shop. 

Now to wait for the fork to arrive.


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## kos83 (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi everybody,
B 
I receive my mattoc today and after a check i found the HSC knob very stiff after the third click to reach the max 5. I can hear and feel the first and second click but the third is less noisy and the knob start to be hard to turn. the 4 and 5 click is difficult to reach ans hard to hear or feel.
Is it normal ?

Cheers
Alex


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

kos83 said:


> Hi everybody,
> B
> I receive my mattoc today and after a check i found the HSC knob very stiff after the third click to reach the max 5. I can hear and feel the first and second click but the third is less noisy and the knob start to be hard to turn. the 4 and 5 click is difficult to reach ans hard to hear or feel.
> Is it normal ?
> ...


Mine is the same. Normal.

Sent from my unknown using Tapatalk


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

I had the same problem. I remove the HS knob and i found that there was a very very small washer underneath that was keeping the spring loaded. I removed it and eveything is perfect now


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## kos83 (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks for your answers !

I used to have the ABS+ of my circus who turn easy and precise so i was surprise with this problem ... Anyone know the purpose of this washer ?

cheers


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

I have been riding my Mattoc/Rune as hard as I would my Dorado/DHR on the same terrain and I am thoroughly impressed so far. It's nice to have the HBO there to save me from my stupid mistakes.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Well I haven't logged in for a while as the fork has been going ok but recently the fork suddenly felt like sh1t in both directions. I won't know until pulling it apart but hopefully it's just oil migration.



Vespasianus said:


> Manitou's demise was a result of their reputation. They need to fix that before anything else.


Well if this thread is still the unofficial best source of information it suggests, like it or don't, that Manitou have stuffed it again on this fork from a reputational POV, and consequently the next fork they release as well. Manitou -"Where is my foot - BOOM"


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Well I haven't logged in for a while as the fork has been going ok but recently the fork suddenly felt like sh1t in both directions. I won't know until pulling it apart but hopefully it's just oil migration.


Can you give a better description of what the problem is and what the maintenance history of your fork is?



bikefiend said:


> Well if this thread is still the unofficial best source of information it suggests, like it or don't, that Manitou have stuffed it again on this fork from a reputational POV, and consequently the next fork they release as well. Manitou -"Where is my foot - BOOM"


Cheer up mate. The sky isn't falling and the issues so far (apart from our Aussie friend, no idea what he did) appear to be a few cc of oil in the wrong place.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> ColinL was on the money! Got an email back from Manitou and they advised they use full synthetic 5W40 motor oil for the semi bath, makes it nice and easy to source.
> 
> Thanks Dougal for the offer to post, just a bit easier to grab the oil from local auto parts shop.
> 
> Now to wait for the fork to arrive.


Keep in mind the 5w40 oils sold in NZ/Australia are not the same oils sold in the USA. I've tested a whole slew that I could get locally from shell, valvoline and castrol and most of them came out rubbish for bushing lubrication. I haven't tried mobil 1, but the mobil 1 grades available are completely different to the US versions.

If you can find a motorex fully synthetic then use that. You won't find it at the local auto parts shop, but you might at a local motorbike shop.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Does anyone know if all the Mattoc's out there for sale were made at the same time, or have they been made in batches, with improvements to build quality along the way.

After reading all the good stuff about the Mattoc am 99% sure I'm going to get one from chainreaction, just wondering if it's likely to have the poppet problem and some of the other issues seen, or have they fixed that?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

markymark said:


> Does anyone know if all the Mattoc's out there for sale were made at the same time, or have they been made in batches, with improvements to build quality along the way.
> 
> After reading all the good stuff about the Mattoc am 99% sure I'm going to get one from chainreaction, just wondering if it's likely to have the poppet problem and some of the other issues seen, or have they fixed that?


What are the specific issues you're worried about?
The poppets are adjustable and the #1 factor in how they will work is the shock pump you're screwing onto it. If your shock doesn't depress it far enough then it won't equalise. The Manitou branded shock pumps work perfectly. These same pumps are found with a whole lot of other brands too. They have an air-chuck that looks like this:










Any other pump with the same chuck will work the same.

But hey, if you actually want product support. Buy through your local agents. Bizzarre concept I know.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

I appreciate the offer and may do, but will take a peek beforehand to see what going on in there. 

What I meant was that regardless of any issues I may or may not be having with my fork, objectively speaking, a reasonable person looking at new forks and reading reviews and other material, including this thread (given the absence of official service manual materials more than a year after release) will possibly conclude Manitou has not quite got their act together yet. What they then do with their money is anyones guess. The fact you are here Dougal, resolving issues on behalf of Manitou on your own accord, whilst a noble thing to do, is actually more evidence of that, IMO of course.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Dougal said:


> What are the specific issues you're worried about?
> The poppets are adjustable and the #1 factor in how they will work is the shock pump you're screwing onto it. If your shock doesn't depress it far enough then it won't equalise. The Manitou branded shock pumps work perfectly. These same pumps are found with a whole lot of other brands too. They have an air-chuck that looks like this:
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Dougal,i use the topeak dxg shock pump, but it's different to all the other cookie cutter shock pumps, hope it will work.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Dougal said:


> What are the specific issues you're worried about?
> The poppets are adjustable and the #1 factor in how they will work is the shock pump you're screwing onto it. If your shock doesn't depress it far enough then it won't equalise. The Manitou branded shock pumps work perfectly. These same pumps are found with a whole lot of other brands too. They have an air-chuck that looks like this:
> 
> 
> ...


Care to answer his first and third question? And to answer your rhetorical one, most people quite rightly expect the manufacturer to stand behind their product. In the absence of that people might rightly assume agents are in the dark too and feel they're on their own to use their own initiative to deal with product related issues, like developing a service manual, oh wait...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> Care to answer his first and third question?


The first question I don't know because I'm not in charge of production.

The third question can't be answered because you need a specific problem to be able to say it's been fixed.



bikefiend said:


> And to answer your rhetorical one, most people quite rightly expect the manufacturer to stand behind their product. In the absence of that people might rightly assume agents are in the dark too and feel they're on their own to use their own initiative to deal with product related issues, like developing a service manual, oh wait...


The manufacturers and their agents do stand behind the products. All of the agents have a direct line to the right people to deal with any problems and a boat load of technical information that isn't for public consumption.
The network is there and it works. But customers need to try to use it.

You're coming across pretty angry right now and it's hard to help when the only description of the problem is "the fork has been going ok but recently the fork suddenly felt like sh1t in both directions."
I didn't just sneak into your garage and sabotage your fork, so I'm not the best target for your frustration.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

wtf are you guys going on about?

edit: so having gone back and read your posts: the kiwi is pussed off I'm buying it from chainreaction. whatever bru, thet's the way ut uz, usun't ut. Was going to get some stuff from your website, but hey, you're not my local agent so what am I meant to do...

bikefiend, I agree, some of these forks seem to have a lot of teething issues out of the box, but once dialled they are sweet. That's just what I've gathered on here.

Anyway I'll leave you two to slug it out... out of here. :thumbsup:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

markymark said:


> wtf are you guys going on about?
> 
> edit: so having gone back and read your posts: the kiwi is pussed off I'm buying it from chainreaction. whatever bru, thet's the way ut uz, usun't ut.


Nope.

Go back and you'll find a chap from Australia who bought one from crc and after what appeared to be some home wrenching had a compression damper not working as it was.

Instead of dealing with the local agents the fork was headed back to the UK.

So noone has any idea what the problem might have been and the dealer support network didn't get a chance to find the problem and fix it.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Guys. I think you all need to calm down a bit. 

And to answer the lovely references to myself. I'm not sure what you are trying to insinuate Dougal but there was no "home wrenching" that led to my compression damper not working. You clearly have not read my posts correctly. It failed, plain and simple. It was removed and visually inspected to try and find the issue. This was not successful and hence the fork was sent away for warranty. This is all standard practise in my opinion.

I'm not sure what difference there is meant to be between sending a fork to a local distributor or overseas for a warranty. The result is the same - the fork is assessed and either rejected, repaired or replaced. If you think a local dealer or whatever would put more effort into trying to fix potential issues (and communicate these to the public) I think you are wrong. It all comes down to the economics of the situation and they aren't going to spend hours hooking the fork up to a bike to assess the damper, and then pull it into a whole heap of pieces when a new fork is so cheap for them to send out.

Finally, whilst you are obviously quite knowledgeable and have a good reputation here, I think you are really risking coming across as a Manitou fanboy here. I don't think anyone can deny Manitou are having quality control issues with this fork. I'm not here to poo poo the fork but I am expecting the Pike to at the very least be more reliable.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Guys. I think you all need to calm down a bit.
> 
> And to answer the lovely references to myself. I'm not sure what you are trying to insinuate Dougal but there was no "home wrenching" that led to my compression damper not working. You clearly have not read my posts correctly. It failed, plain and simple. It was removed and visually inspected to try and find the issue. This was not successful and hence the fork was sent away for warranty. This is all standard practise in my opinion.
> 
> ...


The first thing a local agent could have done is send you another mc2 compression damper and have you send yours in. 
Really fast and really easy. But you have to communicate with them first.

You don't throw away a car when the windscreen cracks! Why would you throw away a fork before it has even been inspected by the right people?


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

No anger or hostility intended towards you Dougal, sorry if that's how it came across. My challenge was to Manitou for not quite finishing the job and was not directed at you. I realise your position is a diplomatic one, mine is purely as a customer on the receiving end of perceived niggly issues, who has little disposable time to ride, let alone tinker and correct things between rides, so I will trade up front economics for trouble free running if I have the choice . And therefore if someone sold one of these for XYZ instead I couldn't fault them, Different strokes, life's too short etc etc. 

The forks issue was resolved by lubing the bushing and seals (inverted forks for 12hrs) and de/repressurising the air chamber which was stuck down best part of 10-12mm. Previous mini service with lowers off and relubed and oil splash lube was 2 weeks ago and they then had approx 2hr of riding on them. That small issue of pressures upset the forks composure and go-to settings and contributed to a sh1tty Saturday ride which was planned a month out and then some, hence me being a bit pissed at M. Now I know I should reset the air chamber after an hour of riding, not exactly convenient or what I'm used to from other forks. On the car analogy, one could also say car manufacturers don't release cars without service manuals and leave it up to customers or individual dealers to figure out what they've built for them, no? Anyway, appreciate your service either way.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I bought mine from CRC also, shipped into the US, but I would definitely contact Hayes USA if I had a warranty concern.

Regarding the potential purchase of a new fork -

To be honest, I've seen enough issues with any brand of new fork that I would suggest tearing them down before riding to be absolutely certain all the fluids are at the right level. Alternatively, it would be reasonable to ride it a bit and then if anything seems amiss, service at that time. (Which would be very early compared to what is 'required'.)


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Oh boy! I've had quite a few Mattocs leave the shop since its release. I've had a total of ONE fork that had a touch too much oil in the damper. Quality control is on par with any other brand. Gotta love RS forks with no bath oil.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Dougal said:


> The first thing a local agent could have done is send you another mc2 compression damper and have you send yours in.
> Really fast and really easy. But you have to communicate with them first.
> 
> You don't throw away a car when the windscreen cracks! Why would you throw away a fork before it has even been inspected by the right people?


Unfortunately that's not how things work here in my experience. I wouldn't have been trusted to even remove the damper myself. Regardless, the fork also had the minor bushing wear as pictured earlier, and an axle that often involved 5 minutes of hand abuse to remove. And yes, I was using the correct technique.

So with these experiences, plus the multiple people I've had contact me personally on this forum and others with Mattoc problems, you could forgive me for correctly questioning Manitou's quality control on this fork. And this is all from such a low volume product.

Anyway, I'll leave you guys to it. No fork is perfect (none of my last 3 from different brands have had correct oil in lowers) but I'm looking forward to more reliable gear in the future.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bikefiend said:


> No anger or hostility intended towards you Dougal, sorry if that's how it came across. My challenge was to Manitou for not quite finishing the job and was not directed at you. I realise your position is a diplomatic one, mine is purely as a customer on the receiving end of perceived niggly issues, who has little disposable time to ride, let alone tinker and correct things between rides, so I will trade up front economics for trouble free running if I have the choice . And therefore if someone sold one of these for XYZ instead I couldn't fault them, Different strokes, life's too short etc etc.
> 
> The forks issue was resolved by lubing the bushing and seals (inverted forks for 12hrs) and de/repressurising the air chamber which was stuck down best part of 10-12mm. Previous mini service with lowers off and relubed and oil splash lube was 2 weeks ago and they then had approx 2hr of riding on them. That small issue of pressures upset the forks composure and go-to settings and contributed to a sh1tty Saturday ride which was planned a month out and then some, hence me being a bit pissed at M. Now I know I should reset the air chamber after an hour of riding, not exactly convenient or what I'm used to from other forks. On the car analogy, one could also say car manufacturers don't release cars without service manuals and leave it up to customers or individual dealers to figure out what they've built for them, no? Anyway, appreciate your service either way.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Your problem sounds like lubrication issues. What are you using for bath oil? As I've mentioned many times in this forum I've tested a lot of lube oils and found a lot of bad results. Some in particular felt good if the fork was inverted, but when ridden for a decent time (4+ hours DH shuttling on a gondola) the fork would get stickier and stickier.

There are three oils I haven't had this with. The Motorex Semi-Bath oil Manitou shipped my Mattoc with, another Motorex fully synthetic and Motorex Supergliss.

Unlike everyone else here, I rode my Mattoc for about 4 months straight before opening it. I did this specifically to see how it would get on as delivered and I had no issues.
In that time I changed air pressure about 4 times. I didn't reset the air chamber at all. Let alone every hour riding. I was acheiving 150mm travel after a team Enduro race with both myself and a younger/faster rider on my bike.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhys.l said:


> Unfortunately that's not how things work here in my experience. I wouldn't have been trusted to even remove the damper myself. Regardless, the fork also had the minor bushing wear as pictured earlier, and an axle that often involved 5 minutes of hand abuse to remove. And yes, I was using the correct technique.
> 
> So with these experiences, plus the multiple people I've had contact me personally on this forum and others with Mattoc problems, you could forgive me for correctly questioning Manitou's quality control on this fork. And this is all from such a low volume product.
> 
> Anyway, I'll leave you guys to it. No fork is perfect (none of my last 3 from different brands have had correct oil in lowers) but I'm looking forward to more reliable gear in the future.


How can you slate service which you haven't tried?
I even offered that you send the damper over here for me to look at (would take 3 days).

What do you mean by minor bushing wear and how did you determine that? I've just fixed "minor bushing wear" on my 10 year old Nixon. I simply resized and reseated those 10 year old bushings. 
If you size bushings too tight (zero play) then you get stiction as you can't keep an oil film between the bushings and stanchions.

In this thread going back many months you've had your fork apart an awful lot. What were you using for bath oil?


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Dougal, you're an engineer right? Can't stop thinking of this... 









It's all good, chur bro :thumbsup:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

markymark said:


> Dougal, you're an engineer right? Can't stop thinking of this...
> 
> View attachment 997456
> 
> ...


I couldn't possibly comment.:aureola:


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I couldn't possibly comment.:aureola:


ha ha


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

I suppose now is a good time for a 25 hour report on my crc mattoc expert. Still performing as it should. Changed air pressure half a dozen times, I am always adjusting compression and rebound settings to suit the wide variety of terrain I ride.
I haven't really noticed any break in as of yet, Its maybe loosened a little. I get up to 155mm travel on rougher trails. Haven't bottomed it out yet, so HBO has never been past 1. No problems with axle, but if you aren't holding your tongue right at times in can take a few goes to insert, I have found that turning the lights off helps here.
When I should do the first service? 
Oh and it gets a fair bit of attention on the trails. Most people are intrigued when I tell them its the best fork I have ridden.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bikefiend said:


> Well I haven't logged in for a while as the fork has been going ok but recently the fork suddenly felt like sh1t in both directions. I won't know until pulling it apart but hopefully it's just oil migration.
> 
> Well if this thread is still the unofficial best source of information it suggests, like it or don't, that Manitou have stuffed it again on this fork from a reputational POV, and consequently the next fork they release as well. Manitou -"Where is my foot - BOOM"


Well, that could be an issue. Has it stiffened up?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bikefiend said:


> I appreciate the offer and may do, but will take a peek beforehand to see what going on in there.
> 
> What I meant was that regardless of any issues I may or may not be having with my fork, objectively speaking, a reasonable person looking at new forks and reading reviews and other material, including this thread (given the absence of official service manual materials more than a year after release) will possibly conclude Manitou has not quite got their act together yet. What they then do with their money is anyones guess. The fact you are here Dougal, resolving issues on behalf of Manitou on your own accord, whilst a noble thing to do, is actually more evidence of that, IMO of course.


Well, if you read the fox 36 or Pike forums, you will see that this is not a uncommon issue. All mass produced forks seem to have issues. Neither Fox nor SRAM contribute to those forums. So in that regard, Manitou is typical.

With that said, Manitou has been very good at standing behind their product. If you have problems, call them. The fork is actually very easy to work on and I have had no major issues.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Seemus7 said:


> I suppose now is a good time for a 25 hour report on my crc mattoc expert. Still performing as it should. Changed air pressure half a dozen times, I am always adjusting compression and rebound settings to suit the wide variety of terrain I ride.
> I haven't really noticed any break in as of yet, Its maybe loosened a little. I get up to 155mm travel on rougher trails. Haven't bottomed it out yet, so HBO has never been past 1. No problems with axle, but if you aren't holding your tongue right at times in can take a few goes to insert, I have found that turning the lights off helps here.
> When I should do the first service?
> Oh and it gets a fair bit of attention on the trails. Most people are intrigued when I tell them its the best fork I have ridden.


Your experience is about the same as mine. However, I found it loosened up even more at the 50 hour mark. The fork is even smoother and controlled. Run of the mill riding will give 145-150 mm of travel. The last 5-8 mm will come if I make a mistake. For me, this is perfect. I have actually gone from no HBO to 2 clicks of HBO - the feel is even smoother. I still struggle with the QR15 axle, drives me nuts. Otherwise, a brilliant fork. I recently test road a bike (GT sanction) with a 2015 Fox 36 Float and feel the Manitou is better. The Fox was rougher in the middle of the stroke and felt way over-damped. The Sanction itself was not as plush as I remember the iDrive to be - which may not have helped. I did no tuning or anything (was thinking of buying the bike...) but with 75psi, the Fox did not feel good. Still waiting to try a pike but I generally have fared well with Rock Shox products.

I think the Mattoc is a world-class fork that when it has problems, is an easy fix. The whole package is very simple.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Dougal

Currently using Redline Motor Oil - Full synthetic.
(If you are not aware, Redline make a selection of Oils and Fluids, specializing in full synthetic. Originally developed for racing, then they got into the road side.)

I use their suspension fluids and blend what I need.

I have picked up a bottle of the Fox 20wt gold stuff. TACKY may be an understatement. This stuff will stay put much better than anything else I have seen. Fortified with moly doesn't hurt either. It came in after my teardown and rebuild when the fork arrived, so has not be used yet.

Another really good boutique motor oil is Royal Purple - again full synthetic.
I have also heard good things about Amsoil - yup another full syn.


As for the fork, so far so good. About the same as other forks at slow crawling over roots etc, but when the speed picks up beyond walk/jog - butter.
I have the problem with the HS comp adjuster getting very stiff at 3 clicks.
Will pull the washer and see how it goes.
Set to 150, so far about 140 used, but surprisingly I have not done anything dumb yet.


Thank-you for your input.

michael


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

The Fox gold 20wt is the real deal if you can get it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The High Speed Compression adjuster works by pre-loading the shimstack. So it has to get firmer as you adjust it tighter and tighter.

I haven't used 20wt gold. I have enough trouble buying air-sleeve kits. Supergliss is officially a vertical slideway lube for machine tools. It is made to lubricate and adhere to vertical plastic and metal surfaces and it does exactly that.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Is the pro worth the extra A$123.50 over the expert (which is what it is at the moment)? That's about $1 per gram. Hmmm.....

I've looked through this thread and everywhere else and can't quite work out the difference in dampers in pro and expert, the expert has more oil. I know the pro has more notches on the knobs, but that's about all I can gather.

Would the expert be better suited for a clydesdale? The extra 100 grams or so doesn't bother me.


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

markymark said:


> Is the pro worth the extra A$123.50 over the expert (which is what it is at the moment)? That's about $1 per gram. Hmmm.....
> 
> I've looked through this thread and everywhere else and can't quite work out the difference in dampers in pro and expert, the expert has more oil. I know the pro has more notches on the knobs, but that's about all I can gather.
> 
> Would the expert be better suited for a clydesdale? The extra 100 grams or so doesn't bother me.


I am 230 lbs. geared up and have the Expert so I cannot comment on the pro, but the expert will serve you well. Its certainly stiff enough and has no trouble keeping me up in the travel @ 78psi. As for the 123 grams, just snap off one before riding.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

markymark said:


> Is the pro worth the extra A$123.50 over the expert (which is what it is at the moment)? That's about $1 per gram. Hmmm.....
> 
> I've looked through this thread and everywhere else and can't quite work out the difference in dampers in pro and expert, the expert has more oil. I know the pro has more notches on the knobs, but that's about all I can gather.
> 
> Would the expert be better suited for a clydesdale? The extra 100 grams or so doesn't bother me.


I honestly don't think there is much of a difference. The Expert can be had for less than $500 and is pretty much the exact same fork as the Pro.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Almost the same - the expert has about half the rebound clicks, but it seems like a similar range of adjustment with less granularity.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Almost the same - the expert has about half the rebound clicks, but it seems like a similar range of adjustment with less granularity.


I wonder if the rebound is any different? I find the rebound control on the Mattoc Pro to be really good and think it is one of the best things about the fork. I would hope the expert would be just as good - if not better with the larger oil volume. No?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> I wonder if the rebound is any different? I find the rebound control on the Mattoc Pro to be really good and think it is one of the best things about the fork. I would hope the expert would be just as good - if not better with the larger oil volume. No?


From my research, the Expert has 5 clicks of rebound vs 9 on the Pro. Manitous website lists the Expert as in leg and Pro as cartridge damper.

I went for the Expert and spent the difference on oils and tools. Still waiting for it to arrive, looking forward to bolting it up!


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

thanks for the responses!

Starting to get the difference now:
The expert has a big damper which uses the actual whole inner diameter of the fork leg to run up and down on, like a moto fork.

The pro has a smaller cartridge within the fork leg which is basically a mini, lighter, version of the expert.









the expert damper is the size of the top one in the pic, the pro damper is the bottom 2. The inner damper and outer tube.

So, basically, the pro has a much smaller damper and thus saves weight. Everything else on the forks is the same from what I can tell.

Hmmm... As a clyde I think I'll go the expert. :thumbsup:

this is the expert damper:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The smaller cartridge body in the Pro would let them use a taper wall stanchion tube. But I don't know if they actually do.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I opened my Mattoc Pro yesterday because it started to perform like my fox 36 rc2 i.e. like crap. I found all oil migrated to negative air chamber. So I lubed seals with m-prep and added 2cc of fox float fluid (very thick oil). Used Valvoline 5W30 motor oil for lubrication. Lets hope that this issue won't show up again. Fork now feels better than new, what was already fantastic.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi there,

I was at OpenEnduro of the Beaufortin during the weekend. About 3'500m D- on Saturday and 2'500 on Sunday. Rocks, stones and roots everywhere, a lot of 180° turns and some nice jumps. My Mattoc performed perfectly. The fastest, the better. With almost 40 km/h on a single trail covered by fixed stones (size between 10 and 30cm), it was like riding on an gravel road.

Unfortunately I have now a concern. I checked a few things on my bike and adjusted the ait pressure in fork, damper an tires. After that, my fork is really diving a lot when I'm breaking on flat ground. HSC and LSC it's no difference. What should I do ?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I was at OpenEnduro of the Beaufortin during the weekend. About 3'500m D- on Saturday and 2'500 on Sunday. Rocks, stones and roots everywhere, a lot of 180° turns and some nice jumps. My Mattoc performed perfectly. The fastest, the better. With almost 40 km/h on a single trail covered by fixed stones (size between 10 and 30cm), it was like riding on an gravel road.
> 
> Unfortunately I have now a concern. I checked a few things on my bike and adjusted the ait pressure in fork, damper an tires. After that, my fork is really diving a lot when I'm breaking on flat ground. HSC and LSC it's no difference. What should I do ?


Have you checked your sag recently? I found that after a good period of time, the fork was just too saggy at the PSI I started with and needed to up the air.

Also, make sure there is no extra air in the negative spring. Turn the bike upside down and let out all the air - completely empty the air spring. Pull the legs apart all he way and add back air to the recommended PSI.

If that does not work. Check the oil level in the damper. Make sure it is at 77 mm from the top of the stanchion.

If that does not work, I would contact Manitou to have them switch out your damper. Manitou has good CS and I would use them.

Keep us informed as you may be the second person on this thread that has reported something like this. It would be good for everyone here to find out what it could be.


----------



## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

I already checked my sag, it's ok. I also checked the oil level, was a little low, but 2-3mm not more. I assume this is the oil that went out when I took out the damper.

I will empty the air, according to your procedure. This evening I ride with some buddies. I'll tell you after that how it was. It should be a good test, with at least 600m D+ and 1'000 D-.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> I already checked my sag, it's ok. I also checked the oil level, was a little low, but 2-3mm not more. I assume this is the oil that went out when I took out the damper.
> 
> I will empty the air, according to your procedure. This evening I ride with some buddies. I'll tell you after that how it was. It should be a good test, with at least 600m D+ and 1'000 D-.


That sounds like a good test. If you have problems that can't be figured out, I would call Manitou. I think they should be very responsive.


----------



## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Seems I had the negative air chamber a little high in pressure. After the complete empty of air it was fully ok. Thanks for the advice.


Sam


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Seems I had the negative air chamber a little high in pressure. After the complete empty of air it was fully ok. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> Sam


Great to hear. I have found filling the air chamber in that specific way is very important and only mentioned on that tech page put up by reach control (https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/2...amper-removal/).


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## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Tonight i fully aired down and re pressured back to 75psi while fully extended. Now on full fast rebound and 1 click, the fork is topping out quite hard. It stops if i click it out further. Any one else's top out at that psi? 
It wasnt doing it before.
I had never fully aired down the fork before, so Im thinking it had a bit of dead stroke from the factory.
Also it maybe just in my head but it appears i have more stanchion showing now... Im giving it a full service next week anyway as I am suspecting the oil migration issue in the air side and to check\change oil in the damper.
Does anyone have a source for M prep grease in Oz? Or an equivalent?
Cheers


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Seemus7 said:


> Tonight i fully aired down and re pressured back to 75psi while fully extended. Now on full fast rebound and 1 click, the fork is topping out quite hard. It stops if i click it out further. Any one else's top out at that psi?
> It wasnt doing it before.
> I had never fully aired down the fork before, so Im thinking it had a bit of dead stroke from the factory.
> Also it maybe just in my head but it appears i have more stanchion showing now... Im giving it a full service next week anyway as I am suspecting the oil migration issue in the air side and to check\change oil in the damper.
> ...


It could be. But honestly, what happens when you add more rebound? My own experience shows that you can run lots of rebound and you still won't pack up.

Stupid question, but is New Zealand close enough to get some from Dougal?

edit.

So, I just set the rebound to full open and the rebound is very fast (using the simple push test). I don't hear a clank but I feel it.

I run it actually 4 clicks from full open (Pro).


----------



## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Same here. 4 clicks from open. On a Pro.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Seemus7 said:


> Tonight i fully aired down and re pressured back to 75psi while fully extended. Now on full fast rebound and 1 click, the fork is topping out quite hard. It stops if i click it out further. Any one else's top out at that psi?
> It wasnt doing it before.
> I had never fully aired down the fork before, so Im thinking it had a bit of dead stroke from the factory.
> Also it maybe just in my head but it appears i have more stanchion showing now... Im giving it a full service next week anyway as I am suspecting the oil migration issue in the air side and to check\change oil in the damper.
> ...


The negative chamber sounds empty. Drop and refill the air pressure again.

What pump are you using? It might not be pushing the rod in far enough to connect the two chambers. Can you try another pump?

Does Apollo not have prep m? Slick honey aka slickoleum is a good alternative.


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Seemus7 said:


> Tonight i fully aired down and re pressured back to 75psi while fully extended. Now on full fast rebound and 1 click, the fork is topping out quite hard. It stops if i click it out further. Any one else's top out at that psi?
> It wasnt doing it before.
> I had never fully aired down the fork before, so Im thinking it had a bit of dead stroke from the factory.
> Also it maybe just in my head but it appears i have more stanchion showing now... Im giving it a full service next week anyway as I am suspecting the oil migration issue in the air side and to check\change oil in the damper.
> ...


Check the lower poppet is sticking out enough on the main air valve.
Manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues BLOG
If it's in the wrong location it won't correctly inflate both chambers when the pump is attached.
If your pump doesn't push the poppet valve in enough when it's connected it will also have the same symptoms.

If it's the pump that's the problem you can be cheeky and get a small ball bearing and put it when you connect the pump to engage the poppet more to try and inflate both chambers.

Scar


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

scar4me said:


> Check the lower poppet is sticking out enough on the main air valve.
> Manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues BLOG
> If it's in the wrong location it won't correctly inflate both chambers when the pump is attached.
> If your pump doesn't push the poppet valve in enough when it's connected it will also have the same symptoms.
> ...


Is there a way to check to see if both chambers are being filled when the pump is attached? Also, is de-flating the air chamber by just pushing the valve versus using a pump?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Is there a way to check to see if both chambers are being filled when the pump is attached? Also, is de-flating the air chamber by just pushing the valve versus using a pump?


If the negative chamber isn't filled the fork has a firm preloaded feel at top-out.

Deflating using the poppet is fine, that's the only real way to do it. I end up with the bike upside down for air pressure changes. It's just easier.


----------



## Seemus7 (Jun 20, 2013)

Dougal said:


> The negative chamber sounds empty. Drop and refill the air pressure again.
> 
> What pump are you using? It might not be pushing the rod in far enough to connect the two chambers. Can you try another pump?
> Does Apollo not have prep m? Slick honey aka slickoleum is a good alternative.


Thanks Dougal that was the problem.
Cant remember the brand of my pump right now, but now i know the chuck has to be quite firmly tightened to depress the poppet enough.



scar4me said:


> Check the lower poppet is sticking out enough on the main air valve.
> Manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues BLOG
> If it's in the wrong location it won't correctly inflate both chambers when the pump is attached.
> If your pump doesn't push the poppet valve in enough when it's connected it will also have the same symptoms.
> ...


Cheers Scar
Yep the poppet does indeed protrude enough. And once inflated it appears to stick out an extra .5mm

Back to normal now! ..apart from the small loss of sensitivity i mentioned earlier. Full service next week will reveal all! Will post my findings

Cheers


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Is there a way to check to see if both chambers are being filled when the pump is attached?


Yes, when a pump is attached, fork should be very soft, easy to compress to travel as both air chambers are connected


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Yes, when a pump is attached, fork should be very soft, easy to compress to travel as both air chambers are connected


Good, that was the test that I was using. I was just checking to make sure I was correct in this assumption.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Air bubbles rise. So full extension of the rebound shaft isn't needed.
> 
> These dampers are self bleeding. Once it has been used all the air will be at the top.


As you seem to be competent with Mattoc techs I got follwing question:

I compared pictures of the mattocs and the MAgnum PRos dampers.
Can it be that the magnum has a true tpc? Because I could see an additional piston which I couldn´t find on the mattoc. Besides I read in a test that th emagnum has a great range of adjustability whereas the mattoc only shows changes on a certasin range of clicks.

Besides can one somehow largen the range of the mattoc´s compression damping and how? The Rebound is really noticable, at least on 5 clicks. but then it is a really great difference. But the comp is rather subtile.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> As you seem to be competent with Mattoc techs I got follwing question:
> 
> I compared pictures of the mattocs and the MAgnum PRos dampers.
> Can it be that the magnum has a true tpc? Because I could see an additional piston which I couldn´t find on the mattoc. Besides I read in a test that th emagnum has a great range of adjustability whereas the mattoc only shows changes on a certasin range of clicks.
> ...


It does look like there is another piston but it looks too close to the first one to be a real TPC+ type of piston, no? Also, if you notice on the Magnum set-up guide, the HSC is now is called the IPA. So you may be right, the compression damper may be different.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bansaiman said:


> As you seem to be competent with Mattoc techs I got follwing question:
> 
> I compared pictures of the mattocs and the MAgnum PRos dampers.
> Can it be that the magnum has a true tpc? Because I could see an additional piston which I couldn´t find on the mattoc. Besides I read in a test that th emagnum has a great range of adjustability whereas the mattoc only shows changes on a certasin range of clicks.
> ...


The magnum and the Mattoc use the same damper and air springs.
This is an internal view of a magnum pro, which has the same internals as a mattoc pro.








What may look like a second piston (the green bit).
Is simply the top of the rebound assembly, which is narrower on the pro to reduce oil volume and save weight.

My other question is what are you wanting the compression damping to do?
The mattoc's damper is very subtle, but extremely controlled.
You won't get it feeling like a platform based damper if that's what you were expecting.

Scar


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't think the green part is the rebound. Look at this picture. The top arrow is the green piston in question, the second arrow is the space between the compression and rebound and the third arrow is the rebound piston.











scar4me said:


> The magnum and the Mattoc use the same damper and air springs.
> This is an internal view of a magnum pro, which has the same internals as a mattoc pro.
> View attachment 998661
> 
> ...


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*damper*

The rebound damper has it's main sealhead above the HBO connector from the top damper assembly.

So the green bit in my original picture is the bottom bit in this picture:
(the silver bit with the Oring)








I'm not saying it's the rebound piston which is the blue bit on the original picture.
It's just the top of the rebound damper assembly.

Scar


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

scar4me said:


> The magnum and the Mattoc use the same damper and air springs.
> This is an internal view of a magnum pro, which has the same internals as a mattoc pro.
> View attachment 998661
> 
> ...


No, that is not the problem I have with the compression. When you close HSC and LSC the fork is relatively firm, that´s ok.

BUt I think at other forks when you close the LSC it prevents the fork more from diving than it does with the mattoc. The mattoc just gets more stiff referring to smallbump comliance but not more dive resistant and I´m wondering where this derives from.


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## bikefiend (Jan 19, 2004)

Did I see before the damper piston in the expert is larger than in the pro? Presumably the shim stack was larger too. If so it seems odd as in the motorcycle world cartridge evolution has moved to larger pistons yet seems this pro model has gone smaller.


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

You are a confusing company Manitou. A 29"+ fork before a "standard" 29" Mattoc?

Can we have a 29" Mattoc, please! I guess black tubes are cool too...


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bikefiend said:


> Did I see before the damper piston in the expert is larger than in the pro? Presumably the shim stack was larger too. If so it seems odd as in the motorcycle world cartridge evolution has moved to larger pistons yet seems this pro model has gone smaller.


Only the rebound piston is the smaller diameter.
The compression piston is the same size.

bansaiman - The low speed compression is exactly that, low speed.
The fact you can tell the difference of the adjustment off the bat, means that it is working. But the low speed compression should give enough support against diving with 1 click.
Otherwise you need to up your spring pressure a bit.

Scar


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> No, that is not the problem I have with the compression. When you close HSC and LSC the fork is relatively firm, that´s ok.
> 
> BUt I think at other forks when you close the LSC it prevents the fork more from diving than it does with the mattoc. The mattoc just gets more stiff referring to smallbump comliance but not more dive resistant and I´m wondering where this derives from.


Okay, so you want more platform. That's easily acheived with more preload on the shim stack.

The MC2 damper has three main parts (ignore the HBO for now).

It has a shim stack piston.
It has an adjustable bypass around this piston (LSC dial).
It has adjustable preload on the shim stack (HSC or IPA dial).

The shim stack is the most important part of this. It sets the whole damping curves as well as the effective ranges of both adjuster dials.

Essentially everything that applies to the ABS+ dampers for tunability also applies to the MC2. Except the preload as well as being set static can also be adjusted with an external (HSC or IPA) dial instead of having to change preload shims.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> You are a confusing company Manitou. A 29"+ fork before a "standard" 29" Mattoc?
> 
> Can we have a 29" Mattoc, please! I guess black tubes are cool too...


27+ magnum also does 29 skinny.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> 27+ magnum also does 29 skinny.


But only with the new hub size correct?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

scar4me said:


> The rebound damper has it's main sealhead above the HBO connector from the top damper assembly.
> 
> So the green bit in my original picture is the bottom bit in this picture:
> (the silver bit with the Oring)
> ...


Are you sure? If you look at the picture, the green piston clearly looks to be on the compression damper and sits right about the HBO.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> But only with the new hub size correct?


Yes. 110mm wide.
15x100 wasn't wide enough to fit the fat tyres through.



Vespasianus said:


> Are you sure? If you look at the picture, the green piston clearly looks to be on the compression damper and sits right about the HBO.


Yes I'm 100% sure. I had a very good look at those photos first time I saw them.

If it wasn't the top of the rebound cartridge, then we'd see another sealing collar below it.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> You are a confusing company Manitou. A 29"+ fork before a "standard" 29" Mattoc?
> 
> Can we have a 29" Mattoc, please! I guess black tubes are cool too...


Agreed. Hopefully they are just using to refine the HBO system a bit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

gregnash said:


> Agreed. Hopefully they are just using to refine the HBO system a bit.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Has somebody had the chance to testride a mattoc vs the Diamond?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm on vacation in Colorado and something is up with my Mattoc. Since I'm now at 9k-12k altitude, compared to about 3.5k at home, I let all the air out of the fork and reset the sag to about 25%.

It's getting about half travel even with HBO, LSC and HSC set to minimum.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

ColinL said:


> I'm on vacation in Colorado and something is up with my Mattoc. Since I'm now at 9k-12k altitude, compared to about 3.5k at home, I let all the air out of the fork and reset the sag to about 25%.
> 
> It's getting about half travel even with HBO, LSC and HSC set to minimum.


Might need to vent the lowers and damper


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> Might need to vent the lowers and damper


Absolutely. That's a huge altitude change and there's a significant pressure change which goes along with that.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

You guys are great! I brought some tools, but not enough to pull the lowers. 

I opened the damper out of the top and removed about 5ml oil. It works so much better now.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Its not ideal but you can use a thin smooth object and slide it under the seal to vent pressure in the lowers. The lowers contribute more to the issue than the damper


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## Eld (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi,
I just wanted to share my setup:
Mattoc Pro 650b set at 150mm. 
52psi
1 click HSC from full open. 
1 click LSC from full open. 
5 clicks HBO from full open. 
1 click rebound from full open. 

Rider weight 145 lbs plus gear. 
Fork is mounted on my Ibis HDR with 130mm rear travel. 
I've had the fork for 4 months and I love it!

Skickat från min E6553 via Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Eld said:


> Hi,
> I just wanted to share my setup:
> Mattoc Pro 650b set at 150mm.
> 52psi
> ...


Welcome and thanks for posting! Why so much HBO? Got Pics?


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## Eld (Jan 28, 2014)

Well, after setting the HSC, LSC and airpressure to my liking I added HBO until bottomless


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Eld said:


> Well, after setting the HSC, LSC and airpressure to my liking I added HBO until bottomless


Well, that is a good enough reason!

Also, can't see pic.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey Guys I seem to be having an issue with my Mattoc Expert.

I've been riding it for about a month and from the start I was under the impression that I was not nearly getting full travel. Today I measured it with a friend with between 5-10psi both pushing hard on the handlebars and not getting more than 137mm travel instead of 160mm with 2-3cm of stanchion unused (this is with HBO fully open).

Since I feel the fork has been this way from the start, because it feels like quite a firm stop at 137mm and because the poppet valve seems to be of normal extension it to me feels more like an overfilled damper issue rather than a problem with air leaking to the negative chamber.

What would you guys advise, open it up following the instruction posted in the thread, checking the oil is at 80mm and perhaps seeing what the negative chamber looks like or sending it in? I'd really hate having to miss the fork for months or so.

Otherwise the fork works fine and I'm really liking it (except for a sticky hexlock). I pull on the fork when changing air pressure and have run anything between 50 and 60 psi for my 200lbs geared up. Is probably done about 20-25 hours. Built date is October 2014.

EDIT: curiously this is exactly the same amount of travel (to the mm) that Vespasianus is getting.



Vespasianus said:


> Yes, you may be right. I would also say, I think these forks need to break in before they give 100%. I am running about 65PSI for my 200 lbs and they feel great. I am getting exactly 137 mm of travel (which is odd in itself!) but the travel feels endless, like I have tons of room left. This fork is actually making my dw linked rear end (with a Push Kashima coated RP23) feel down right turd like.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CS645 said:


> Hey Guys I seem to be having an issue with my Mattoc Expert.
> 
> I've been riding it for about a month and from the start I was under the impression that I was not nearly getting full travel. Today I measured it with a friend with between 5-10psi both pushing hard on the handlebars and not getting more than 137mm travel instead of 160mm with 2-3cm of stanchion unused (this is with HBO fully open).
> 
> ...


The first thing I would do is dump out all the air from the fork and with the shock pump still attached, see how much travel you get with all the air out. You should get close to 150-155 of travel at this point. If you do not, you may have too much oil in your fork and you should follow this page to fix it:

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/

Before you add back air make sure to fully extend the fork physically to ensure you get full travel. After this, add back air to about 60 PSI.

During the first 25 hours, I got around 140mm on most rides (usually exactly 137mm as you mentioned).

Now I get ~150 mm on most rides with close to 157mm on some really big nasty stuff.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Mine is lowered to 140 but 30 mm unused is about what I had last week. I had great luck removing 5ml damper oil. 

I haven't ridden trails since I got back, due to rain, but there was no way I could get full travel before, even with no air in the fork.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Mine is lowered to 140 but 30 mm unused is about what I had last week. I had great luck removing 5ml damper oil.
> 
> I haven't ridden trails since I got back, due to rain, but there was no way I could get full travel before, even with no air in the fork.


Yes, only a few mL make a difference. I actually removed about that much oil from my damper. The bumper takes up about 5-10 mm of travel and you should at least get to 5-10 mm less than full travel when all the air is removed and you push down on the fork.

If not, there is probably too much oil in the damper or too much oil in the air side.

Although these things are easy fixes, if you have the tools, it is still not acceptable on a new fork and will hurt Manitou in the long run.

With that said, take a look at the Fox 36 or Pike thread and the number of people with similar issues (actually there are more) - which would be even more of a pain on a $1050 fork.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> The first thing I would do is dump out all the air from the fork and with the shock pump still attached, see how much travel you get with all the air out. You should get close to 150-155 of travel at this point. If you do not, you may have too much oil in your fork and you should follow this page to fix it:
> 
> https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Well now I left the pump and also removed the last few psi. No luck, still 137mm (perhaps a bit less even cause I was pushing on it by myself this time). Guess gonna have to pop it open (which I planned to do sooner or later anyway to see what I like more 150 or 160mm on my Trance).

Got M-prep grease and Motorex Power Synt 5W/40 as semi-bath. Wonder if the the little sockets I got in the Mattoc box are meant as 8mm sockets.

Well every review mentioned travel loss and few issues in this thread, so no really surprised or disappointed, seems easily fixed. As you say every brand has it's issues.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Well now I left the pump and also removed the last few psi. No luck, still 137mm (perhaps a bit less even cause I was pushing on it by myself this time). Guess gonna have to pop it open (which I planned to do sooner or later anyway to see what I like more 150 or 160mm on my Trance).
> 
> ...


Are you getting full extension?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CS645 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Well now I left the pump and also removed the last few psi. No luck, still 137mm (perhaps a bit less even cause I was pushing on it by myself this time). Guess gonna have to pop it open (which I planned to do sooner or later anyway to see what I like more 150 or 160mm on my Trance).
> 
> ...


The fork does not come with the thin walled socket - you have to buy it separately or grind down a normal socket. I would start by removing the compression damper and see what the level is to start. If that is normal, you will have to see if oil has migrated into the negative spring.

Your fork has the same build date as mine (April 2014) and I had lots of oil in the negative spring side as well.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Are you getting full extension?


Yep.



Vespasianus said:


> The fork does not come with the thin walled socket - you have to buy it separately or grind down a normal socket. I would start by removing the compression damper and see what the level is to start. If that is normal, you will have to see if oil has migrated into the negative spring.
> 
> Your fork has the same build date as mine (April 2014) and I had lots of oil in the negative spring side as well.


Well it's from October, but that's the same ball park.

I had these two items shipped in what is labeled: "Mattoc AM EXP KIT" 141-30159-K011









They are 8mm, but I understand I will still need a thin walled socket. Thanks so far. I'll start with the damper.


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Not sockets. Those are internal parts needed to swap between between 26" and 27.5" wheels.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Not sockets. Those are internal parts needed to swap between between 26" and 27.5" wheels.


Right. Off to the hardware store then.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> The fork does not come with the thin walled socket - you have to buy it separately or grind down a normal socket. I would start by removing the compression damper and see what the level is to start. If that is normal, you will have to see if oil has migrated into the negative spring.
> 
> Your fork has the same build date as mine (April 2014) and I had lots of oil in the negative spring side as well.


Can you remind me: if there is excess oil on the negative side causing a travel problem, is this coming from the positive air side, or the splash bath oil in the lowers?

I did a tear down on my fork and have now done 2 rides with it. I seem to be getting less travel than I was before service. I've removed small amounts of oil from the damper after the rides thinking I slightly overfilled it. The damper oil process on this fork is not the greatest. Setting the level is easy enough and fairly exact, however, how much oil is retained in the compression damper when you pull it out? Do the oil heights assume an empty or dry damper cartridge? If so, then it would actually end up overfilled once you put the cart back in since there is residual oil in it (5ml worth??)

On the Dorado you set oil by height also but both the dampers always remain in place when you do so.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Can you remind me: if there is excess oil on the negative side causing a travel problem, is this coming from the positive air side, or the splash bath oil in the lowers?
> 
> I did a tear down on my fork and have now done 2 rides with it. I seem to be getting less travel than I was before service. I've removed small amounts of oil from the damper after the rides thinking I slightly overfilled it. The damper oil process on this fork is not the greatest. Setting the level is easy enough and fairly exact, however, how much oil is retained in the compression damper when you pull it out? Do the oil heights assume an empty or dry damper cartridge? If so, then it would actually end up overfilled once you put the cart back in since there is residual oil in it (5ml worth??)
> 
> On the Dorado you set oil by height also but both the dampers always remain in place when you do so.


Excess oil in the air spring will collect in the negative side and reduce the extended height of the fork.

Residual oil in the compression damper is minor. A few cc of oil can make a huge mess on the bench but very little difference in oil height in the damper. Don't stress about that.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Can you remind me: if there is excess oil on the negative side causing a travel problem, is this coming from the positive air side, or the splash bath oil in the lowers?
> 
> I did a tear down on my fork and have now done 2 rides with it. I seem to be getting less travel than I was before service. I've removed small amounts of oil from the damper after the rides thinking I slightly overfilled it. The damper oil process on this fork is not the greatest. Setting the level is easy enough and fairly exact, however, how much oil is retained in the compression damper when you pull it out? Do the oil heights assume an empty or dry damper cartridge? If so, then it would actually end up overfilled once you put the cart back in since there is residual oil in it (5ml worth??)
> 
> On the Dorado you set oil by height also but both the dampers always remain in place when you do so.


Most times, the oil in the negative spring comes from the positive side. Manitou originally recommended 7mL of oil for the air piston but that is now down to some prep-M and 3 mL. I think I used closer to 1-2 mL.

As dougal mentioned, removing the compression damper always takes out some oil, but it tends to be a small amount that does not really alter anything.

I would try resetting the air spring. As dougal mentioned above, make sure the fork fully extends when all the air is out and the pump is still attached. You should measure close to 163-165 of exposed stanchion at the lowest point of the crown (when the fork is set at 160mm). I also pump the fork up and down when the pump is attached to make sure both air chambers are connected. When they are, the fork will feel very, very spongy and soft. I also remove air after doing this.

Remember, to fully extend the fork with the shock attached before adding back air.

As a reference, my fork has a build date of 4/2014 and I use 60 Lbs for my 200 lbs with 2 clicks of HSC, 1 click of LSC and 2 clicks of HBO. I actually finally got the full 159-160mm of travel out of the fork on Sunday. Took a hit big enough to pop my tire but the jump felt great!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

IntenseMack10 said:


> On the Dorado you set oil by height also but both the dampers always remain in place when you do so.


Wait... what?

I set the oil height in my Mattoc Expert with the damper in place. Is that incorrect?

If it is... the damper was significantly overfilled from the factory and was still overfilled when I went on vacation.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Most times, the oil in the negative spring comes from the positive side. Manitou originally recommended 7mL of oil for the air piston but that is now down to some prep-M and 3 mL. I think I used closer to 1-2 mL.
> 
> As dougal mentioned, removing the compression damper always takes out some oil, but it tends to be a small amount that does not really alter anything.
> 
> ...


Hmm, ok. I had read enough about the correction to the air spring oil on the positive side that I did grease the piston seal with Prem M and put very little oil on the top of the positive side, maybe even less than 3ml.

When I initially pulled the lowers there was little to no splash bath in there (both sides) so on reassembly I did make sure to put a good 13cc or so in each side.

Either way, on full extension I do have over 160mm exposed, so I guess its not coming from the negative air side.

If I depressurize the fork and pull the top cap on the air side then press on the fork, I can get it to get to full travel, but in the last inch or so there is a lot of resistance. Running zero HBO of course. Its just on the trails, and these trails were my locals that are really chuncky and high speed that I would expect to see full travel at least a couple times, that it never got through the last inch or so.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

ColinL said:


> Wait... what?
> 
> I set the oil height in my Mattoc Expert with the damper in place. Is that incorrect?
> 
> If it is... the damper was significantly overfilled from the factory and was still overfilled when I went on vacation.


Yeah the compression damper unthreads from the crown and just pulls out the top. The oil is then visible inside the stanchion. But how were you even able to check / change oil height with yours still in place? The rebound damper does remain in place, is that the one you were referring to?If so, thats fine then.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Yeah the compression damper unthreads from the crown and just pulls out the top. The oil is then visible inside the stanchion. But how were you even able to check / change oil height with yours still in place? The rebound damper does remain in place, is that the one you were referring to?If so, thats fine then.


yes, rebound in place. speaking precisely does help, doesn't it?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Hmm, ok. I had read enough about the correction to the air spring oil on the positive side that I did grease the piston seal with Prem M and put very little oil on the top of the positive side, maybe even less than 3ml.
> 
> When I initially pulled the lowers there was little to no splash bath in there (both sides) so on reassembly I did make sure to put a good 13cc or so in each side.
> 
> ...


You could check the damper but that actually sounds like mine. With all the air out, the fork will fall down (or by pushing using little or no force) to 140mm of travel. I need to just push lightly to get another 155 and actually ride off a curb to get closer to 160.

I only seem to get 150+ travel when I hit a jump. And only get 155+ when I fck up. I got 157mm when I hit a jump, landed and immediately hit a ledge and recently got a full 160 when I hit a jump at a good speed and landed beautifully, felt great and amazing but my front tire blew up and I noticed my O-ring pushed right to the top. I have actually wondered what would happen if I replaced the 5 wt oil with 2.5 wt.

I have also noticed (just feels like it) that I need a little HSC and HBO even to get more travel. Sounds odd and goes against everything I always thought, but it does feel like it makes things smoother as well. This is an odd fork in many ways that does not behave like other forks. When it is working (which for me has been all the time, knock on wood) feels amazing. Just smooth and bottomless.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> yes, rebound in place. speaking precisely does help, doesn't it?


Yes, rebound can stay in place. Filling with the rebound out with make it difficult (oil would just pass through!).


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes, rebound can stay in place. Filling with the rebound out with make it difficult (oil would just pass through!).


had a momentary freak-out where logic was not applied. :lol:


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> had a momentary freak-out where logic was not applied. :lol:


Hey ColinL, any luck with your fork getting more of the travel?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

IntenseMack10 said:


> On the Dorado you set oil by height also but both the dampers always remain in place when you do so.


I'd better clarify this.

In the Dorado everything is upside down compared to the Mattoc. The damper leg is open bath with the same damper fluid filling the damper completely and also spilling over to lube the bushings.

The damper sits in a tube and pumps itself full of oil during the assembly and bleed. Then oil height is set between a level that will ensure the bushings have enough oil but also enough air space remains to not over-pressurise the leg during compression.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Dougal said:


> I'd better clarify this.
> 
> In the Dorado everything is upside down compared to the Mattoc. The damper leg is open bath with the same damper fluid filling the damper completely and also spilling over to lube the bushings.
> 
> The damper sits in a tube and pumps itself full of oil during the assembly and bleed. Then oil height is set between a level that will ensure the bushings have enough oil but also enough air space remains to not over-pressurise the leg during compression.





ColinL said:


> Mine is lowered to 140 but 30 mm unused is about what I had last week. I had great luck removing 5ml damper oil.
> 
> I haven't ridden trails since I got back, due to rain, but there was no way I could get full travel before, even with no air in the fork.


Right, all that good stuff. I was more specifically talking about the physical procedure of placing the correct amount of oil in a Dorado vs the Mattoc in that the compression damper for the Mattoc is fully removed from the fork when oil height is set, then the damper is replaced. Where as in the Dorado everything is in place when you dump oil into the fork.

Of course if anyone is reading this and going to service a Dorado off the info I'd better say that when setting the height you do so with the stanchion all the way up into the outer leg (what would be a full travel situation when riding) and the rebound damper pulled all the way out at the top.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Hi all,

I've just bought a used bike which came with Mattoc forks, I have been using them on local trails and so far they feel OK but I feel something isn't quite right. I have read through some of this thread and decided to de/repressurise the air chamber. The initial fork length to the lowest part of the crown measured 155mm, since I extended them and added pressure they are at 171mm. Does this sound right? 

With no pressure the forks would only compress around 145mm so they might also be overfilled with oil but this is something I will check when I service them in the next few weeks.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've just bought a used bike which came with Mattoc forks, I have been using them on local trails and so far they feel OK but I feel something isn't quite right. I have read through some of this thread and decided to de/repressurise the air chamber. The initial fork length to the lowest part of the crown measured 155mm, since I extended them and added pressure they are at 171mm. Does this sound right?
> 
> ...


With my fork (26") set at 160mm, with no air and the pump attached, the fork compresses to about 145mm with little effort. Pushing down with very little effort will get close to 155mm of travel. I think this is normal. Almost every fork regardless of brand seems to come without enough bath oil from the factory. You may want to check this. Use this site for some basic service:

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/

Also, I find these last three steps (from that web-site) to be very important:

EDIT: Couple of Notes from Manitou Tech:

Place a bead of m-prep in the groove below the oil seal and between the dust and oil seal. This will get that fork felling like butter and should remove any inconsistent feeling.

Fully extend the fork with the pump connected before filling with air. If the fork is not fully extended it will have this dead stroke feeling.

You should lubricate the air piston and fill the piston cup half way with m-prep. Only 3 cc of semi bath should be placed on top of the piston.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

I just got my 160mm Mattoc Pro in gloss white recently. Have not mounted it yet. I was messing around with it and noticed that the low speed compression does not seem to do too much when compressing on it.

Also does anyone elses knobs get stuck at the end of rotation? I'm trying to figure out with the rotation, do we adjust by the number of detent clicks? For instance with the low speed knob, I have 4 clicks but the online guide shows 0-4 (5 clicks?). I seem to also have 4 clicks for the high speed while it shows 5. Is it normal for the knob to get harder and harder to turn going +? With that in mind, there seems to be play at both ends of the spectrum which I presume is normal, it's just messing with me in knowing how many clicks I'm at.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Scott5272 said:


> I just got my 160mm Mattoc Pro in gloss white recently. Have not mounted it yet. I was messing around with it and noticed that the low speed compression does not seem to do too much when compressing on it.
> 
> Also does anyone elses knobs get stuck at the end of rotation? I'm trying to figure out with the rotation, do we adjust by the number of detent clicks? For instance with the low speed knob, I have 4 clicks but the online guide shows 0-4 (5 clicks?). I seem to also have 4 clicks for the high speed while it shows 5. Is it normal for the knob to get harder and harder to turn going +? With that in mind, there seems to be play at both ends of the spectrum which I presume is normal, it's just messing with me in knowing how many clicks I'm at.


 You won't feel differences in LSC and HSC without riding it. It's not a lockout.

Yes the knobs get firmer, especially HSC as you are preloading the damper shims with it.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

If anyone is on the fence about getting a Mattoc, now is the time to grab one! Wiggle are clearing them out:

wiggle.com.au | Manitou

Wish I had waited a few weeks now.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> I just got my 160mm Mattoc Pro in gloss white recently. Have not mounted it yet. I was messing around with it and noticed that the low speed compression does not seem to do too much when compressing on it.
> 
> Also does anyone elses knobs get stuck at the end of rotation? I'm trying to figure out with the rotation, do we adjust by the number of detent clicks? For instance with the low speed knob, I have 4 clicks but the online guide shows 0-4 (5 clicks?). I seem to also have 4 clicks for the high speed while it shows 5. Is it normal for the knob to get harder and harder to turn going +? With that in mind, there seems to be play at both ends of the spectrum which I presume is normal, it's just messing with me in knowing how many clicks I'm at.


What dougal said is correct, you need some HSC to get the bigger feel in the LSC. Turn the HSC all the way clockwise and then do the same with the LSC. The fork should feel very stiff.

I almost look at that LSC compression as having a much greater range depending upon the amount of HSC. 0-4 with HSC off, 5-10 with HSC at 1, 11-15 with HSC at 2, etc. This fork has lots of adjustments and each click will give a real difference on the trail.

Also, ride the fork and go big. This fork begs you to go fast and hit big things. My fork also took a good 50 hours to fully break in and did not get over 140mm of travel until ~30 hours of riding.

Also, follow this site for hints on how to get the most out of your fork:
https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/

When adding air, make sure to follow this tip:

Fully extend the fork with the pump connected before filling with air. If the fork is not fully extended it will have this dead stroke feeling.

Ride, and ride hard.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> If anyone is on the fence about getting a Mattoc, now is the time to grab one! Wiggle are clearing them out:
> 
> wiggle.com.au | Manitou
> 
> Wish I had waited a few weeks now.


Manitou can't update the Mattoc with so much stock still out there. I can't believe my fork, which I purchased in 2015 had a build date of April, 2014.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

If the build date is listed as month/year on the axle then mine is 3/14. I just got mine this week in the mail.

I figured out from another post where the build date is. Thanks


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Manitou can't update the Mattoc with so much stock still out there. I can't believe my fork, which I purchased in 2015 had a build date of April, 2014.


speaking of that, the only real update would be a change to the Magnum air spring cap with tokens. can it be bought separately yet?


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

I asked them about the black stanchions when I called in a month or so ago and they said it most likely would get that, but the MY16 was already set at the time. That and top cap are two features I'm aware of. Personally, while I like the all black, prior forks I had eventually faded (not from maint...I religious about oil bath) so I'm good with the gold. My Mattoc has done well by me so far.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Not sure if this has been posted, Manitou have a service video up now:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/support/

Just click on the camera icon!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Not sure if this has been posted, Manitou have a service video up now:
> 
> www.manitoumtb.com
> 
> Just click on the camera icon!


Nice find. They recommend 3 mL for the top of the air piston and only 7 mL per side for the bath oil.

It also confirms that the new mattoc will have air volume adjustment.

Also, what is listed as the set-up guide is actually a full rebuild video.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

It also confirms the difference between Expert and Pro. The compression bladder assembly has a different mount for the Expert for the different rebound rod. So to go from Expert to Pro you would need the different rebound and compression assembly. 

Also 2015 forks get the IVA, hope this become available soon.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> It also confirms the difference between Expert and Pro. The compression bladder assembly has a different mount for the Expert for the different rebound rod. So to go from Expert to Pro you would need the different rebound and compression assembly.
> 
> Also 2015 forks get the IVA, hope this become available soon.


Exactly. Also, I wonder if putting 15 ml of bath oil per side - versus the 7 ml that they recommend in that video- will limit travel. I currently have 15 ml per side but am loath to bother with the fork at the moment, as it is working so well at the moment.

Also, what is the purpose with filling the air piston cup with grease?


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

What is alluding to a travel adjust Mattoc?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> What is alluding to a travel adjust Mattoc?


Sorry, I was drinking. I meant to say air volume adjustment. I fixed the post.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hopefully the top cap is a piece that can be bought seperatly as well.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Anyone with a Giant Trance, after installing the fork, did you just use shorter screws? Were there any other adjustments or pieces needed?

EDIT: I found the answer needed. Shorter screws.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> Anyone with a Giant Trance, after installing the fork, did you just use shorter screws? Were there any other adjustments or pieces needed?
> 
> Sent via Tapatalk


I don't have a Giant Trance, so what shorter screws are you talking about.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Deleted. Answer found.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Video not working for me:

"Not Found

The requested URL /support/ was not found on this server."

Getting this one as well:

"Not Found

The requested URL /products/forks/ was not found on this server."

Anyone else?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Actually, it looks like their site is down. None of the links work this morning.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah. Seems their website is broken. Can view service video here:


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice find. They recommend 3 mL for the top of the air piston and only 7 mL per side for the bath oil.


...but the guy is pushing 15ml for each side


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

shiny said:


> Yeah. Seems their website is broken. Can view service video here:


Excellent, cheers! Now I only need to get the 8mm socket since it's not easy to get and I already have the rest of the kit.


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

At 3:00" minute the man on video says that there is 15cc or 15 ml of semi bath oil in outer leg. In the end of video they say 7cc of semibath oil.Which one is correct i wonder.


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

15mm each side: http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide.pdf

Exploded Diagrams & Part Numbers

Pro: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNYkhnbkwxeHo3Vkk/view?pli=1

Expert: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNaWU1eXdVc2JqbWc/view?pli=1


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

haristheodoropoulos said:


> At 3:00" minute the man on video says that there is 15cc or 15 ml of semi bath oil in outer leg. In the end of video they say 7cc of semibath oil.Which one is correct i wonder.


Experience of many Mattoc users is, that 7cc is just right.

EDIT: According to Dougal post under this one, I must have missed something. So, probably 15 is correct.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

haristheodoropoulos said:


> At 3:00" minute the man on video says that there is 15cc or 15 ml of semi bath oil in outer leg. In the end of video they say 7cc of semibath oil.Which one is correct i wonder.


I haven't watched the video, but 15cc is the correct amount for each lower leg.

7cc was the original amount for the air chambers.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I haven't watched the video, but 15cc is the correct amount for each lower leg.
> 
> 7cc was the original amount for the air chambers.


In the video, they said 7 mL, although the syringe had 15 ml in it.


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## haristheodoropoulos (Dec 21, 2011)

I filled the lower legs with 15cc and i get full travel. But it is a mystery for me the correct ammount because in the video they say both 15(third minute)and 7cc(at the end).Mayde it is something berween 7-15cc


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Finally have mine mounted up. Impressions are much better after it's been installed. HUGE improvement over the '14 Fox 32 Talas. Can't wait to hit the trails with it.

Just waiting on the McLeod that I ordered today to pair up with it. I am very surprised by the cost of both the fork and shock with the performance in comparison with Fox and Rockshox.










Sent via Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> Finally have mine mounted up. Impressions are much better after it's been installed. HUGE improvement over the '14 Fox 32 Talas. Can't wait to hit the trails with it.
> 
> Just waiting on the McLeod that I ordered today to pair up with it. I am very surprised by the cost of both the fork and shock with the performance in comparison with Fox and Rockshox.
> 
> ...


Nice. the strange thing is that I feel the fork is stiff and over-damped in the garage/parking lot. Once you hit the trails, it just becomes smooth and plush.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

Dougal said:


> I haven't watched the video, but 15cc is the correct amount for each lower leg.
> 
> 7cc was the original amount for the air chambers.


I use 16cc's...


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Unless you are an epic weight weenie, you want to use the maximum lower leg oil possible without running into problems with blowing seals/oil ingress into areas where it shouldn't be.

I would go with 15ml per side, as many people are running this with no dramas. Cutting this in half to 7ml is not going to benefit your fork in any way shape or form. It will just decrease the amount of oil available to deal with contaminants in the lowers, decrease your service intervals and have your fork feeling ordinary, sooner. 

The only case for running less than 15ml is if you feel there is migration into your neg chamber or damper. I began to run slightly less than 15ml in the air side for this reason.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> In the video, they said 7 mL, although the syringe had 15 ml in it.


The syringe did have 15mL in it, but notice that he filled both legs with the same syringe without refilling it, meaning it was 7 in each side (7.5 to be exact of course).

For whats its worth, on my recent service I filled each leg with something just less than 15 each side. Like 13 or so. Also, on my Dorado, on the air side Manitou calls for 30mL, and I usually put in 35-40.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> The syringe did have 15mL in it, but notice that he filled both legs with the same syringe without refilling it, meaning it was 7 in each side (7.5 to be exact of course).
> 
> For whats its worth, on my recent service I filled each leg with something just less than 15 each side. Like 13 or so. Also, on my Dorado, on the air side Manitou calls for 30mL, and I usually put in 35-40.


Yeah, I put 15mL in and seems to work fine. I think it is funny that at that section, the narrator does not speak but the volumes of oil are just stated in the caption to the right. Like something they just put in.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Bike rumors talks about this bike - Bergamont that comes with a Mattoc with a modified damper to give it a more DH feel. Would not mind seeing what they did!

2016 Bergamont Encore gives enduro a second look with variable geometry chip


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> Bike rumors talks about this bike - Bergamont that comes with a Mattoc with a modified damper to give it a more DH feel. Would not mind seeing what they did!
> 
> 2016 Bergamont Encore gives enduro a second look with variable geometry chip


There's this dood Zac Smith,in Canada, who has worked with Manitou for years developing their forks, especially the Mattoc and new Dorado, and does custom tuning. I don't know how to get ahold of him, but he's on instagram as @smithtech. Could be a resource for tuning input.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Bike rumors talks about this bike - Bergamont that comes with a Mattoc with a modified damper to give it a more DH feel. Would not mind seeing what they did!
> 
> 2016 Bergamont Encore gives enduro a second look with variable geometry chip


The IRT is spring side and looks to be a drop-in upgrade. I probably can't say any more.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The IRT is spring side and looks to be a drop-in upgrade. I probably can't say any more.


Neat. I have never heard of the Bergamot but it looks like a nice bike.


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## ferremi (May 24, 2008)

Found this quite interesting from Zac Smith's instagram, there is a wealth of Mattoc info 

So coating alla kashima is just for looks.


__
http://instagr.am/p/yU_xcbTRnR/


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

ferremi said:


> Found this quite interesting from Zac Smith's instagram, there is a wealth of Mattoc info
> 
> So coating alla kashima is just for looks.
> 
> ...


His comment about Kashima is spot on, if you ever send a Fox fork in for service, they will almost always reply back that stanchions show wear and offer to sell you replacement uppers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Where my 10 year old Nixon still has perfect stanchion anodizing.


Hmmm.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Bike rumors talks about this bike - Bergamont that comes with a Mattoc with a modified damper to give it a more DH feel. Would not mind seeing what they did!
> 
> 2016 Bergamont Encore gives enduro a second look with variable geometry chip


Article suggests its just a revalve. "custom tuning to the damper that's based on the DH stack inside the Dorado."


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

riiz said:


> His comment about Kashima is spot on, if you ever send a Fox fork in for service, they will almost always reply back that stanchions show wear and offer to sell you replacement uppers.


100% correct. And they will blame the owner for not maintaining the fork. I have a 1996 Rock Shox Judy, a 1997 Manitou FS, a 1999 Rock Shox Judy Hydracoil, a 2001 X-vert, a 2006 Nixon IT and a 2007 Nixon Super all with perfect stanchions. Yet, my fox stanchion only lasted 18 months. Twice. Disposable junk if you ask me. And nothing but marketing. I moved from a pushed RP23 to a Pushed kashima coated RP23 and there is no difference. None. Zero. I fell for the marketing.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

I agree with you Vespasianus, I have quite a few forks from years ago and with proper maintenance I see no visible wear even after 10 years of rising in all kinds of conditions. I won't buy anymore Fox shocks either, for that I use RS. I really like being able to rebuild my own stuff and hate having to send them out for service. That's all that is stopping me from trying the new Manitou shock. My new Mattoc is really great though...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Good info on the Mattoc and seriously making me want to build a 27.5 bike to utilize! Sub'd to Zach's instagram and his information is on there. He is a Manitou employee it looks like and also one of their team mechanics but one of the pics on his insta shows all his contact info.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aresab said:


> I agree with you Vespasianus, I have quite a few forks from years ago and with proper maintenance I see no visible wear even after 10 years of rising in all kinds of conditions. I won't buy anymore Fox shocks either, for that I use RS. I really like being able to rebuild my own stuff and hate having to send them out for service. That's all that is stopping me from trying the new Manitou shock. My new Mattoc is really great though...


The McLeod can be serviced at home. If it needs it. Air sleeves just unscrew.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> The McLeod can be serviced at home. If it needs it. Air sleeves just unscrew.


I can confirm this from talking with Shanan at Manitou. Gave me some quick stuff to try, only time it would need to be sent in is if the IFP needed work which requires a special tool, but other than that it is completely user serviceable. They are apparently still working on videos for this.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

gregnash said:


> I can confirm this from talking with Shanan at Manitou. Gave me some quick stuff to try, only time it would need to be sent in is if the IFP needed work which requires a special tool, but other than that it is completely user serviceable. They are apparently still working on videos for this.


That's what I mean... I service my RS damper and IFP myself. Not looking to just service the air can. Either way, if I had a need I might try a new Manitou shock, right now I'm good.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aresab said:


> That's what I mean... I service my RS damper and IFP myself. Not looking to just service the air can. Either way, if I had a need I might try a new Manitou shock, right now I'm good.


If you can service a RS rear shock damper then you can service a McLeod damper. The only special tool you absolutely need is the 5 point tool to remove the IFP cover plug and the fill adapter. There is one keychain tool that does both of those tasks.

There are a lot of other tools which will make the job easier, but not strictly needed.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ferremi said:


> Found this quite interesting from Zac Smith's instagram, there is a wealth of Mattoc info
> 
> So coating alla kashima is just for looks.
> 
> ...


By the way, he has lots of interesting stuff on his instagram site.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I just did a full tear down of my mattoc after about 4 months of riding it. This is was my first time cracking it open. On my last ride I was getting a solid and definite ramp up to stop at about 130mm. Oil had migrated into the negative air spring as discovered when I went to release the air pressure.

Once I popped the lowers off, I could not get the rebound assembly shaft to compress any further than the point that was limiting the travel to 130mm. I took everything apart, cleaned, check o-rings. Everything looked good, reset the oil height and reassembled everything. 

All issues seem sorted out but now my high speed compression knob wont turn, and my hbo knob turns through its whole range but without any clicks. Any idea on what could be causing this and a solution? Any guesses to what was up with my limited travel situation?


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

LaXCarp said:


> I just did a full tear down of my mattoc after about 4 months of riding it. This is was my first time cracking it open. On my last ride I was getting a solid and definite ramp up to stop at about 130mm. Oil had migrated into the negative air spring as discovered when I went to release the air pressure.
> 
> Once I popped the lowers off, I could not get the rebound assembly shaft to compress any further than the point that was limiting the travel to 130mm. I took everything apart, cleaned, check o-rings. Everything looked good, reset the oil height and reassembled everything.
> 
> All issues seem sorted out but now my high speed compression knob wont turn, and my hbo knob turns through its whole range but without any clicks. Any idea on what could be causing this and a solution? Any guesses to what was up with my limited travel situation?


There will always be oil in the lowers, it is semi-bath oil. Thats why it is best to air up or bleed the fork, with the bike upside down. But it does sound like you have an issue with the damper, you might need to pull it out and make sure it still assembled correctly, and oil levels are correct.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> I just did a full tear down of my mattoc after about 4 months of riding it. This is was my first time cracking it open. On my last ride I was getting a solid and definite ramp up to stop at about 130mm. Oil had migrated into the negative air spring as discovered when I went to release the air pressure.
> 
> Once I popped the lowers off, I could not get the rebound assembly shaft to compress any further than the point that was limiting the travel to 130mm. I took everything apart, cleaned, check o-rings. Everything looked good, reset the oil height and reassembled everything.
> 
> All issues seem sorted out but now my high speed compression knob wont turn, and my hbo knob turns through its whole range but without any clicks. Any idea on what could be causing this and a solution? Any guesses to what was up with my limited travel situation?


The HBO knob sounds like you've lost the balls and springs that give it detents. These push sideways out the knob to ride in slots in the HSC knob.

I'm not sure what you might have done with the HSC knob.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

riiz said:


> There will always be oil in the lowers, it is semi-bath oil. Thats why it is best to air up or bleed the fork, with the bike upside down. But it does sound like you have an issue with the damper, you might need to pull it out and make sure it still assembled correctly, and oil levels are correct.


Yes, I know there is oil in the lowers. There is not supposed to be oil in negative air springs that sprays out when you relieve the pressure. That is with the bike upside down.

By a doing a full tear down, I dissembled both the air spring and damper. I drained the oil and reset the height of the oil, then reassembled.Idid not disassemble the tuning control assembly though.

The limited travel issue is gone, and the damper tuning knobs worked before, but do not work now...hence I am thinking it is a relatively simple solution, like something not lining up or torqued properly.

Anyone else have any thoughts?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> Yes, I know there is oil in the lowers. There is not supposed to be oil in negative air springs that sprays out when you relieve the pressure. That is with the bike upside down.
> 
> By a doing a full tear down, I dissembled both the air spring and damper. I drained the oil and reset the height of the oil, then reassembled.Idid not disassemble the tuning control assembly though.
> 
> ...


Lets try to work this out. The first thing I would check is if the rebound knob still works. That should at least tell you that half the system is working. To look at the compression dampers, I do the following:

Turn the HSC all the way clockwise, next turn the LSC all the way clockwise - as far as it will go. The fork at this step should feel stiff.

The only thing that could have happened is that the main O-ring (there is only 1) on the compression assembly got turned or torn.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Yes, I know there is oil in the lowers. There is not supposed to be oil in negative air springs that sprays out when you relieve the pressure. That is with the bike upside down.


There will always be some oil in the air ports which comes out with released air. The faster you release the air, the more oil will come with it.



LaXCarp said:


> By a doing a full tear down, I dissembled both the air spring and damper. I drained the oil and reset the height of the oil, then reassembled.Idid not disassemble the tuning control assembly though.
> 
> The limited travel issue is gone, and the damper tuning knobs worked before, but do not work now...hence I am thinking it is a relatively simple solution, like something not lining up or torqued properly.
> 
> Anyone else have any thoughts?


I'd take the knobs off and have a look. There is also a spacer and nut that need to be put in the right order.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Zac is an AWESOME guy. I met him at Sea Otter last year (2014) as he was there manning the Manitou booth.

Then a month ago or so, my bro's Dorado seal popped at Whistler, so I set up a service with Zac for my bro, and on a trip from Vancouver up to Whistler he serviced my bro's Dorado and had him back in business and not missing any riding. 

He is also featured in a Pinkbike Tech Tuesday video from a few years back on basic service on the Dorado. 

All around great guy.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Lets try to work this out. The first thing I would check is if the rebound knob still works. That should at least tell you that half the system is working. To look at the compression dampers, I do the following:
> 
> Turn the HSC all the way clockwise, next turn the LSC all the way clockwise - as far as it will go. The fork at this step should feel stiff.
> 
> The only thing that could have happened is that the main O-ring (there is only 1) on the compression assembly got turned or torn.


I rode it this evening and it seemed to function normally. I didn't adjust the rebound at all from my 3 clicks so I cant comment for certain that the rebound was working properly, but it seemed to be.

I cant adjust the HSC knob, which is my original troubleshooting question. I did dial in a few clicks of LSC but don't remember noticing an effect. Trouble is the last 4 months I rode it at 55-60psi with no HSC, LSC, or HBO dialed in, all wide open...so my perception of their impact on the ride quality is it a bit limited.

I gave the main seals of both the air spring and damper assembly a good once over with no indications of wear or poor fit. The air spring did look like on grease which is probably what allowed the oil to migrate over...I also think there was too much oil in the air spring.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> I just did a full tear down of my mattoc after about 4 months of riding it. This is was my first time cracking it open. On my last ride I was getting a solid and definite ramp up to stop at about 130mm. Oil had migrated into the negative air spring as discovered when I went to release the air pressure.
> 
> Once I popped the lowers off, I could not get the rebound assembly shaft to compress any further than the point that was limiting the travel to 130mm. I took everything apart, cleaned, check o-rings. Everything looked good, reset the oil height and reassembled everything.
> 
> All issues seem sorted out but now my high speed compression knob wont turn, and my hbo knob turns through its whole range but without any clicks. Any idea on what could be causing this and a solution? Any guesses to what was up with my limited travel situation?


I have the same issue like you. When the fork was new, oil height in damper was 77mm. After few rides I had to remove 9ml of oil to get 77mm height as I was experiencing travel loss. Then I used 7ml for lubrication and the problem was gone. Last week I put 15ml oil to each leg and I started to experience travel loss almost immediately. Today I'll open the damper to see oil level, but I expect it will be high.

The same thing happens on the spring side. Everytime I open the fork, there is NO oil in positive chamber (used M-prep and 3ml of supergliss), negative chamber has about 10-12ml of oil inside. Thats oil from positive chamber and lubrication oil too. I haven't ever experience so massive oil migration, not even on fox forks, which are known for this problem. If this all continues, I have to go for a warranty.

Its pitty because I really like that fork, when it works.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> I have the same issue like you. When the fork was new, oil height in damper was 77mm. After few rides I had to remove 9ml of oil to get 77mm height as I was experiencing travel loss. Then I used 7ml for lubrication and the problem was gone. Last week I put 15ml oil to each leg and I started to experience travel loss almost immediately. Today I'll open the damper to see oil level, but I expect it will be high.
> 
> The same thing happens on the spring side. Everytime I open the fork, there is NO oil in positive chamber (used M-prep and 3ml of supergliss), negative chamber has about 10-12ml of oil inside. Thats oil from positive chamber and lubrication oil too. I haven't ever experience so massive oil migration, not even on fox forks, which are known for this problem. If this all continues, I have to go for a warranty.
> 
> Its pitty because I really like that fork, when it works.


What oils are you using for damping and lubrication? The oils I use are completely different colours and it's obvious if they get into the wrong place or start mixing.

But I haven't had that with the Mattoc. 9cc is a huge amount of fluid to migrate. A healthy seal can't allow that over a couple of rides and an unhealthy seal will dump oil out the damper.
These are a very different seal design to the likes of a Fox float where the seal specifically works best in one direction and will pump oil one way.

Are you draining the legs before adding the 15cc for lubrication?

I had almost 6 months on my Mattoc before I opened it. There was no oil migration.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> I rode it this evening and it seemed to function normally. I didn't adjust the rebound at all from my 3 clicks so I cant comment for certain that the rebound was working properly, but it seemed to be.
> 
> I cant adjust the HSC knob, which is my original troubleshooting question. I did dial in a few clicks of LSC but don't remember noticing an effect. Trouble is the last 4 months I rode it at 55-60psi with no HSC, LSC, or HBO dialed in, all wide open...so my perception of their impact on the ride quality is it a bit limited.
> 
> I gave the main seals of both the air spring and damper assembly a good once over with no indications of wear or poor fit. The air spring did look like on grease which is probably what allowed the oil to migrate over...I also think there was too much oil in the air spring.


OK. When I first took the HSC off and put it back on, I had a similar thing, where the HSC knob would not turn. I removed, reset and re-tigtened the small screw. That seemed to fix it. I would try that. Also, as mentioned, never remove the HBO knob from the HSC screw.

My general experience is that the LSC and HSC work together on this fork. You need a little of each to feel it off the bike and doing a push test.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> I have the same issue like you. When the fork was new, oil height in damper was 77mm. After few rides I had to remove 9ml of oil to get 77mm height as I was experiencing travel loss. Then I used 7ml for lubrication and the problem was gone. Last week I put 15ml oil to each leg and I started to experience travel loss almost immediately. Today I'll open the damper to see oil level, but I expect it will be high.
> 
> The same thing happens on the spring side. Everytime I open the fork, there is NO oil in positive chamber (used M-prep and 3ml of supergliss), negative chamber has about 10-12ml of oil inside. Thats oil from positive chamber and lubrication oil too. I haven't ever experience so massive oil migration, not even on fox forks, which are known for this problem. If this all continues, I have to go for a warranty.
> 
> Its pitty because I really like that fork, when it works.


I would call Manitou ASAP. Honestly, they should be made aware of these issues and do something.

In the meantime, I would use 7 mL per side for the bath oil - which may explain why the rebuild video states 7 mL.

When I rebuilt the fork in late April, I used simple Castrol 10-40 motor oil for the air piston - 2 mL and for the bath lube - 15 mL/ side. I used lots of grease around all the O-rings but I don't know if I did anything special. I may open the top air cap to see if there is still any oil on the positive side but my fork is working so well at the moment, I am hesitant to mess with it.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> What oils are you using for damping and lubrication? The oils I use are completely different colours and it's obvious if they get into the wrong place or start mixing.
> 
> But I haven't had that with the Mattoc. 9cc is a huge amount of fluid to migrate. A healthy seal can't allow that over a couple of rides and an unhealthy seal will dump oil out the damper.
> These are a very different seal design to the likes of a Fox float where the seal specifically works best in one direction and will pump oil one way.
> ...


I use Motorex Supergliss 100k for lurication of lowers/casting and the same oil on top of air piston(3ml). I didn't change damping oil yet. I expect it to be contaminated by supergliss.

I drain all oil from lowers before adding new oil. I leave it to drain about an hour.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> I would call Manitou ASAP. Honestly, they should be made aware of these issues and do something.
> 
> In the meantime, I would use 7 mL per side for the bath oil - which may explain why the rebuild video states 7 mL.
> 
> When I rebuilt the fork in late April, I used simple Castrol 10-40 motor oil for the air piston - 2 mL and for the bath lube - 15 mL/ side. I used lots of grease around all the O-rings but I don't know if I did anything special. I may open the top air cap to see if there is still any oil on the positive side but my fork is working so well at the moment, I am hesitant to mess with it.


I never did post the final analysis of my troubles from the vacation trip in early July...

No oil in the positive air chamber - used M prep grease on the sealhead and had 5ml oil in the chamber. -> Means it migrated to the negative side

Damper was correct at 80mm from the top of the leg - I have an Expert - and then was overfilled by 5ml when I experienced severe travel loss. (I couldn't use more than 80mm of the 140mm travel before removing 5ml.) Bath oil migrated into the damper. The rebound seal seems the likely place for this to happen.

So to me, it's the same problem RoboS is describing.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> OK. When I first took the HSC off and put it back on, I had a similar thing, where the HSC knob would not turn. I removed, reset and re-tigtened the small screw. That seemed to fix it. I would try that. Also, as mentioned, never remove the HBO knob from the HSC screw.
> 
> My general experience is that the LSC and HSC work together on this fork. You need a little of each to feel it off the bike and doing a push test.


Dang, So i did seperate the HBO from the HSC knob, and I dont recall springs and bb's...so i must have messed that up. Shoot. It seems the HBO knob will still function, it just wont lock into each "click"

I wonder if that impacts the functionality of the HSC knob. That thing wont budge.]

I did confirm this morning that the rebound damping works as expected.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dougal said:


> There will always be some oil in the air ports which comes out with released air. The faster you release the air, the more oil will come with it.
> 
> I'd take the knobs off and have a look. There is also a spacer and nut that need to be put in the right order.


I will reconfirm the orientation of the spacer and nuts, it is probably something to do with that.

I am used to a btt of oil coming out of the pressurized air spring, but this was large volume that shot across the room and landed on my friends dog...like 5-10ml worth. I drained it all and resupplied with about 2-3ml.

On the oil damper side, it behaved as if there was too much oil in the cartridge, ie wouldnt compress past a certain point...but it wasn't that way for 4 months so kind of confused by that. I reset the oil height and everything seemed smooth.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I never did post the final analysis of my troubles from the vacation trip in early July...
> 
> No oil in the positive air chamber - used M prep grease on the sealhead and had 5ml oil in the chamber. -> Means it migrated to the negative side
> 
> ...


Not good, it means the oils is being sucked up into the damper over time. Does manitou need a better seal on the rebound shaft, one that will keep oil from flowing out but also keeps oil from flowing in?

Also, I wonder if the seals are changing with different temps and pressures?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Not good, it means the oils is being sucked up into the damper over time. Does manitou need a better seal on the rebound shaft, one that will keep oil from flowing out but also keeps oil from flowing in?
> 
> Also, I wonder if the seals are changing with different temps and pressures?


I would say that was the issue with mine as well. That is the only way that characteristic could display itself over time, unless oil expands somehow.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> Dang, So i did seperate the HBO from the HSC knob, and I dont recall springs and bb's...so i must have messed that up. Shoot. It seems the HBO knob will still function, it just wont lock into each "click"
> 
> I wonder if that impacts the functionality of the HSC knob. That thing wont budge.]
> 
> I did confirm this morning that the rebound damping works as expected.


I wonder if the balls and springs are not there, if turning the screw literally screws the HSC knob into place?


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

So, I opened damper side from top to check oil level. Look what happened








Had a hard time getting all the parts from inside. Lots of time to find them on the floor/grass/dirt and lots of time realizing how to put everything together. Damper works now, but I feel only slight detents on HSC. I expect that there are two detent balls, but I found only one. After all, damper works and I had a great opportunity to see how its made and what every dial does to the piston/shimstack. 
I don't know what is the viscosity of damping oil, but I used motorex 7.5wt. Rebound seems slower than before, but its easy to compensate by 2 clicks on rebound (running 1 click from open). I recommend to check everytime if its all tightened.

On the spring side, I put 3ml of oil to positive chamber last week, today it was in negative side. Positive side was without oil. Good news is, that I didn't find more oil in negative chamber. I assembled it with bigger amount of m-prep and NO oil.

For lubrication, I used supergliss, 7ml to each leg.

I'll report back after few rides


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Damper oil is Motorex 5wt. 7.5 wt won't be the end of the world, but it will increase damping force and HBO strength, with fewer clicks at the same oil level.

BTW I'm curious how you adapted that fender (I think it's a mucky nutz?) for use on the Mattoc. It rarely is rideable here after rain, but when I was in Colorado eating mud a few times, I wished I had a fender. :lol:


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Damper oil is Motorex 5wt. 7.5 wt won't be the end of the world, but it will increase damping force and HBO strength, with fewer clicks at the same oil level.
> 
> BTW I'm curious how you adapted that fender (I think it's a mucky nutz?) for use on the Mattoc. It rarely is rideable here after rain, but when I was in Colorado eating mud a few times, I wished I had a fender. :lol:


Thats mucky nutz version for reverse arch. This one Face Fender (R)
It doesn't fit very well, it rubs tire, but better than nothing


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Well, that would explain why your compression knobs were not working! That is crazy. Did you get it all back together again? 


Edit:

OK, I read your post again and you did get it back together again. Hopefully it will stay put. I think you should send those pics to Manitou. I think they should be made aware of issues like this.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Dougal said:


> But I haven't had that with the Mattoc. 9cc is a huge amount of fluid to migrate. A healthy seal can't allow that over a couple of rides and an unhealthy seal will dump oil out the damper.
> These are a very different seal design to the likes of a Fox float where the seal specifically works best in one direction and will pump oil one way.


I mentioned this before but it fell on deaf ears. Oil migration will most definitely happen with the type of seal Manitou uses on the air piston. See my previous post for a more detailed explanation. Fox uses a U-cup seal which will not allow migration in one direction but will in the other. The migration problem with Fox was from bath oil getting into the air chamber. This is the reverse of what you all are seeing with your Mattoc when it migrates from the postive to negative chamber. Bottom line, don't sweat it. I would use slick honey and a few cc's of a tacky oil like Fox Gold 20w or some of the alternative Dougal has mentioned.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> I mentioned this before but it fell on deaf ears. Oil migration will most definitely happen with the type of seal Manitou uses on the air piston. See my previous post for a more detailed explanation. Fox uses a U-cup seal which will not allow migration in one direction but will in the other. The migration problem with Fox was from bath oil getting into the air chamber. This is the reverse of what you all are seeing with your Mattoc when it migrates from the postive to negative chamber. Bottom line, don't sweat it. I would use slick honey and a few cc's of a tacky oil like Fox Gold 20w or some of the alternative Dougal has mentioned.


Positive to negative oil migration is a given. Certainly. The mitigation there is to use a low enough air spring oil volume that it doesn't restrict extension.

It's bath oil to negative air and bath oil to damper that others are claiming.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ktm520 said:


> I mentioned this before but it fell on deaf ears. Oil migration will most definitely happen with the type of seal Manitou uses on the air piston. See my previous post for a more detailed explanation. Fox uses a U-cup seal which will not allow migration in one direction but will in the other. The migration problem with Fox was from bath oil getting into the air chamber. This is the reverse of what you all are seeing with your Mattoc when it migrates from the postive to negative chamber. Bottom line, don't sweat it. I would use slick honey and a few cc's of a tacky oil like Fox Gold 20w or some of the alternative Dougal has mentioned.


But I think people are seeing bath oil being pulled into the negative spring and into the damper.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> Well, that would explain why your compression knobs were not working! That is crazy. Did you get it all back together again?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> OK, I read your post again and you did get it back together again. Hopefully it will stay put. I think you should send those pics to Manitou. I think they should be made aware of issues like this.


My compression knobs were working before. This happened during unthreading the top cap, I believe.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> My compression knobs were working before. This happened during unthreading the top cap, I believe.


OK, I am a bit confused but as long as it is working now!


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I tore mine apart again last night, the damper tuning assembly is fully intact, unlike the previous posters. But there is definitely something limiting the adjustment of the HSC knob, even with it pulled out of the fork, it would not rotate. 

Also, I definitely lost the springs/bb's for the HBO knob but it still rotates and you can see it travel up and down when rotating so I think it still functions...it just does not click at specific intervals. I wonder if this means the HBO is actually infinitely adjustable within its range rather than the 4-5 clicks.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LaXCarp said:


> .it just does not click at specific intervals. I wonder if this means the HBO is actually infinitely adjustable within its range rather than the 4-5 clicks.


I think this is true for any sort of shim stack.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I think this is true for any sort of shim stack.


I thought the HBO was nothing more than holes that allowed oil to pass through when the rebound shaft entered it. The HBO knob "closed" these holes reducing oil flow and increasing compression dampening. I wonder if the HBO know is turning indefinitely, if it just goes from open to closed when you make a complete turn.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

HBO has a ball with spring inside the cylinder. Adjuster just change the preload on that spring. So it is infinitely adjustable within its limits


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## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

Hi Mattocs

After researching for over a year I just pull the trigger on a mattoc from CRC. This thread is very usefull but couldn't find an answer I was looking for:

Can I ride it out of the box?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CHINOTAKER said:


> Hi Mattocs
> 
> After researching for over a year I just pull the trigger on a mattoc from CRC. This thread is very usefull but couldn't find an answer I was looking for:
> 
> Can I ride it out of the box?


I would highly recommend fitting a bike, wheel and a brake. Other than that it's good to go.

I owned and rode mine for 6 months before stripping it down to check anything.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CHINOTAKER said:


> Hi Mattocs
> 
> After researching for over a year I just pull the trigger on a mattoc from CRC. This thread is very usefull but couldn't find an answer I was looking for:
> 
> Can I ride it out of the box?


Well, after adding the stuff that Dougal mentioned, yes. Give the fork a good 30-50 hours of good hard ridding to be fully broken in. The mattoc uses a really good dust seal- that lets nothing in and a oil seal that keeps the bath oil inside the fork. Those are pretty tight so they need time to break in.

As stated in this thread, make sure to get a good shock pump and make sure to fully extend the fork with the shock pump attached after you deflate the fork and before you pump it up.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

CHINOTAKER said:


> Hi Mattocs
> 
> After researching for over a year I just pull the trigger on a mattoc from CRC. This thread is very usefull but couldn't find an answer I was looking for:
> 
> Can I ride it out of the box?


How else would you ride it? It is difficult to ride without first removing it from the box and installing it.

All joking aside, yes. Unless you need to change the travel, it should be ready to go.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cary said:


> How else would you ride it? It is difficult to ride without first removing it from the box and installing it.
> 
> All joking aside, yes. Unless you need to change the travel, it should be ready to go.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


Hey Cary, is your son still rocking the Mattoc on the 5-spot?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Nope, he hates it!!! :^)

It works great. As it has broken in, we have had to up the pressure a little and dial in a little more compression and bottom out. He really likes it and wanted a Dorado on his downhill bike. I put my foot down as the YT Tues had the perfectly good Boxxer Team with the charger damper. Kid is fast. He is 11 and just took 1st in the 13 under at Northstar yesterday, 20 seconds ahead of the next rider. I can't even keep in sight anymore.


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## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

As stated in this thread, make sure to get a good shock pump and make sure to fully extend the fork with the shock pump attached after you deflate the fork and before you pump it up.[/QUOTE]

I have the pump that came with the trek remedy would that be ok?
Is for the Fox DRCV shock/fork.....


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CHINOTAKER said:


> As stated in this thread, make sure to get a good shock pump and make sure to fully extend the fork with the shock pump attached after you deflate the fork and before you pump it up.


I have the pump that came with the trek remedy would that be ok?
Is for the Fox DRCV shock/fork.....[/QUOTE]

That should be good.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cary said:


> View attachment 1007688
> View attachment 1007689
> 
> 
> ...


That is awesome! From the looks of it, he will be forcing Gwin into retirement in 7 years!


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> That is awesome! From the looks of it, he will be forcing Gwin into retirement in 7 years!


Gwin needs to worry about those kids from Whistler. While my son is way fast on the local level, he got hammered by the Whistler kids at Sea Otter.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Does anybody know where I can source a decal set for white expert forks?

Cannot seem to locate them anywhere!


----------



## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

shiny said:


> Does anybody know where I can source a decal set for white expert forks?
> 
> Cannot seem to locate them anywhere!


Manitou couldnt help you?


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

I emailed them but they just sent back a part number but it does not mention details for different colored forks.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

shiny said:


> I emailed them but they just sent back a part number but it does not mention details for different colored forks.


That must be a OEM offering, the retail Expert is only offered in black. What was that part number btw?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

I purchased the fork aftermarket. Choice of black or white:

Manitou Mattoc Expert Forks - 15mm 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles

Have emailed a few retailers to see if they can source them.

Part number is 141-30996-K020

EDIT: Found these guys:

SSP Manitou Mattoc Decal Kit - Slik Graphics

Pricey and no air guide but might be my only option.


----------



## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> I tore mine apart again last night, the damper tuning assembly is fully intact, unlike the previous posters. But there is definitely something limiting the adjustment of the HSC knob, even with it pulled out of the fork, it would not rotate.
> 
> Also, I definitely lost the springs/bb's for the HBO knob but it still rotates and you can see it travel up and down when rotating so I think it still functions...it just does not click at specific intervals. I wonder if this means the HBO is actually infinitely adjustable within its range rather than the 4-5 clicks.


LaXCarp, did you get your fork worked out? I wonder if Manitou would send you some springs/bb to fix the knob.


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## Palirojo (Sep 27, 2006)

has anyone had a chance to ride a DVO diamond and mattoc? Im curious how they compare. I weigh 185 and live in nevada with lots of rocks so im worried the mattoc might be too flexy but wanted to get everyone else's thoughts.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Palirojo said:


> has anyone had a chance to ride a DVO diamond and mattoc? Im curious how they compare. I weigh 185 and live in nevada with lots of rocks so im worried the mattoc might be too flexy but wanted to get everyone else's thoughts.


I've ridden a Mattoc Pro and Pike both at Bootleg Canyon, and I couldnt tell the difference between stiffness. I did like the Mattoc better cause I could tune the High-speed compression for the chunk though.


----------



## Palirojo (Sep 27, 2006)

riiz said:


> I've ridden a Mattoc Pro and Pike both at Bootleg Canyon, and I couldnt tell the difference between stiffness. I did like the Mattoc better cause I could tune the High-speed compression for the chunk though.


thanks


----------



## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

riiz said:


> I've ridden a Mattoc Pro and Pike both at Bootleg Canyon, and I couldnt tell the difference between stiffness. I did like the Mattoc better cause I could tune the High-speed compression for the chunk though.


And impressively, the Mattoc can be had at half the price of the DVO Diamond or Fox. Amazing performance for a fork at a reasonable price.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> I purchased the fork aftermarket. Choice of black or white:
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Expert Forks - 15mm 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles
> 
> ...


I have the K020 & K021 decals here and the large "manitou" sticker is white in each of them. Some of the Manitou decal kits contain stickers of different colours for different back-grounds. But not these.

I have no idea what the decal part number is for the white forks. Sorry.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> I have the K020 & K021 decals here and the large "manitou" sticker is white in each of them. Some of the Manitou decal kits contain stickers of different colours for different back-grounds. But not these.
> 
> I have no idea what the decal part number is for the white forks. Sorry.


Thanks Dougal, was going to ask you later in the week. Have emailed Manitou again to see if they can help any further. Cheers.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Well, if you have a white fork and need some decals Manitou don't make them!

To give some background, after 4 rides the fork started riding rough and was not getting full travel, even with all air removed. 

So went to drop the lowers, had them off previously to change travel and torqued to 4nm. The rebound bolt would not undo and then the Allen key slipped rounding it out. Lots of swear words. Further attempts to get the bolt to come undone just made more of a mess and did some minor damage to the bolt part of the casting. 

Ended buying a new rebound assembly (the threaded part is crimped on) and new castings and will cut the end off the rebound side to release it :eekster:

Whilst I was not expecting any freebies from Manitou, some advice or guidance would have been nice, basically just got part numbers and good luck! They offered to send me some general fork decals if I sent them a self addressed stamped envelope! Surely sending some stickers would not cost much. I was planning to look at getting a McLeod rear shock but have been put off by them not wanting to know about it. Maybe I am reading into too much. Oh well, once the fork is back together will put it all behind me and get back to enjoying riding my bike.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

shiny said:


> Well, if you have a white fork and need some decals Manitou don't make them!
> 
> To give some background, after 4 rides the fork started riding rough and was not getting full travel, even with all air removed.
> 
> ...


Well that is disappointing. One guy gets shock after shock sent to him and another can't even get some decals. CS is only good if it is consistent.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

shiny said:


> Well, if you have a white fork and need some decals Manitou don't make them!
> 
> To give some background, after 4 rides the fork started riding rough and was not getting full travel, even with all air removed.
> 
> ...


SSP Manitou Mattoc Decal Kit - Slik Graphics

A little pricey, but their silk and look better and can get custom colors at the same time.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

riiz said:


> SSP Manitou Mattoc Decal Kit - Slik Graphics
> 
> A little pricey, but their silk and look better and can get custom colors at the same time.


Yup, that's my only choice, no air guide or rebound sticker so will try to peel and re-stick these off the current fork.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Yup, that's my only choice, no air guide or rebound sticker so will try to peel and re-stick these off the current fork.


But if you buy the regular black lower set, that air guide should work.


----------



## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

shiny said:


> Yup, that's my only choice, no air guide or rebound sticker so will try to peel and re-stick these off the current fork.


But those decals are pretty useless once you've learned how to tune the fork to your weight and riding style.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Well, if you have a white fork and need some decals Manitou don't make them!
> 
> To give some background, after 4 rides the fork started riding rough and was not getting full travel, even with all air removed.
> 
> ...


I've got an update from Manitou about these decals.

The early sets (which I have) only have the white stickers (for red or black lowers). But the current sets also include stickers for all other colour lowers (including white).

So go ahead and order them, you'll find what you need in the bag.

K020 is the 26" sticker kit.
K021 is the 27" sticker kit.

I haven't compared these two sets to see what difference there is between the 26 and 27. Looking at my own fork I suspect it is only the air pressure chart.


----------



## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

Hi guys,

Quick question... How many centimeters are you getting from the lowest part of the crown (on the inside) till the beginning of the seal at the bottom of the stanchion

thanks


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CHINOTAKER said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Quick question... How many centimeters are you getting from the lowest part of the crown (on the inside) till the beginning of the seal at the bottom of the stanchion
> 
> thanks


That of course depends on what you are running the fork at but for my 26" 160mm fork, the distance is ~165mm. Remember, the crown in oddly shaped and this is at the lowest point.

edit. Just checked after a ride and the distance is closer to 165mm on the short side of the crown and close o 170 on the high side of the crown.


----------



## Nickj (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi all, I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm having some problems with my Mattoc (2014, 27.5, set at 160). Apologies if this has been covered before and any help or guidance would be appreciated. 

I did a basic oil and seal change (just removing the lowers) before taking them to the Alps last week. The forks were great on the first day, but on the second day I noticed I wasn’t getting full travel and there was a lot of ramp up. With all the compression wound off I could only get just over half travel. I let some air out and this was accompanied by a lot of oil (a lot more than the 7cc that I had put in there). I took the fork apart, put a bit more oil in the lowers, pumped the air up and put them back together. They were fine for most of the next day, but then they suddenly blew through all of their travel. They topped out short of their full travel (by about an inch) and made a very harsh noise on doing so.

I've pumped them back up since and they've held their pressure (but I haven't ridden them much). 

Any ideas on what's happened or how to fix it? I read that not getting full travel could be to do with the oil level in the damper and was thinking of giving that a go (using the guide that was posted), but that wouldn't explain why there was so much oil in the air chamber. TF Tuned have said that oil can't migrate from the lowers, but did admit they weren't familiar with the fork. I wonder if the loss of air pressure was because I didn't put enough oil back in the lowers (I only had a little spare oil with me at the time), but I still want to solve the possible migrating of oil. 

Any ideas or help would be great. Thanks, Nick.


----------



## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Nickj said:


> Hi all, I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm having some problems with my Mattoc (2014, 27.5, set at 160). Apologies if this has been covered before and any help or guidance would be appreciated.
> 
> I did a basic oil and seal change (just removing the lowers) before taking them to the Alps last week. The forks were great on the first day, but on the second day I noticed I wasn't getting full travel and there was a lot of ramp up. With all the compression wound off I could only get just over half travel. I let some air out and this was accompanied by a lot of oil (a lot more than the 7cc that I had put in there). I took the fork apart, put a bit more oil in the lowers, pumped the air up and put them back together. They were fine for most of the next day, but then they suddenly blew through all of their travel. They topped out short of their full travel (by about an inch) and made a very harsh noise on doing so.
> 
> ...


Are you pressurizing the fork correctly? It sounds like you're not getting a good positive/negative spring balance. If you invert the fork and pressurize it upside down, that will help with losing oil. But to get more than what you put in, is beyond me.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Nickj said:


> Hi all, I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm having some problems with my Mattoc (2014, 27.5, set at 160). Apologies if this has been covered before and any help or guidance would be appreciated.
> 
> I did a basic oil and seal change (just removing the lowers) before taking them to the Alps last week. The forks were great on the first day, but on the second day I noticed I wasn't getting full travel and there was a lot of ramp up. With all the compression wound off I could only get just over half travel. I let some air out and this was accompanied by a lot of oil (a lot more than the 7cc that I had put in there). I took the fork apart, put a bit more oil in the lowers, pumped the air up and put them back together. They were fine for most of the next day, but then they suddenly blew through all of their travel. They topped out short of their full travel (by about an inch) and made a very harsh noise on doing so.
> 
> ...


It does look like when people go to altitude things go funny with this fork. With that said, it might be easier to just do a quick rebuild of the fork following the new video's and the directions earlier in this thread. The big things would be to make sure to use only 1-3 mls of motor oil on top of the air piston. Also, when you are pumping the fork back up, make sure to extend the legs fully with the pump attached.

I would check the damper oil level as well. Make sure it is 77mm from the top for the Pro and 80mm from the top for the Expert. Get this as close to possible.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nickj said:


> Hi all, I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm having some problems with my Mattoc (2014, 27.5, set at 160). Apologies if this has been covered before and any help or guidance would be appreciated.
> 
> I did a basic oil and seal change (just removing the lowers) before taking them to the Alps last week. The forks were great on the first day, but on the second day I noticed I wasn't getting full travel and there was a lot of ramp up. With all the compression wound off I could only get just over half travel. I let some air out and this was accompanied by a lot of oil (a lot more than the 7cc that I had put in there). I took the fork apart, put a bit more oil in the lowers, pumped the air up and put them back together. They were fine for most of the next day, but then they suddenly blew through all of their travel. They topped out short of their full travel (by about an inch) and made a very harsh noise on doing so.
> 
> ...


At this stage you've both lost and added unknown quantities of oil. So I'd pull the lowers, open/empty the air spring and start fresh with known quantities of oil in all the right places.

Your intial problem with lots of ramp up sounded like air pressure trapped in the lower legs which can happen with hard use on many forks, particularly with new bath oil. If this was the case it was nothing to do with the air spring that you then let pressure out of. The issues you've had from there I think are seperate and caused by oil being added/removed in unknown amounts.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Looks like they just announced the new King Can At Eurobike.
Eurobike 2015 Product Showcase | BIKE Magazine

Oops wrong thread sorry.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bdundee said:


> Looks like they just announced the new King Can At Eurobike.
> Eurobike 2015 Product Showcase | BIKE Magazine


Thanks. The pushed RP23 on my Turner 5 Spot is definitely playing second fiddle to my Mattoc. May have to give this a try...


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## Nickj (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks all for the replies above...will give it a go this weekend.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

I wrote a comment a few pages back explaining about a travel loss issue I was having on my Mattoc Comp forks, I've emailed Manitou several days ago asking if the service guide is the same for the Comp model. So far I have had no reply. Does anyone else know if the same procedure and oil quantities apply? I have the semi bath oil and M Prep grease ready so I just want to service them asap and see how they feel working as they should.

Also to add to the comments about how much stanchion is exposed, on my fork there is 171mm, I bought the bike used and I'm starting to think the previous owner may have removed the spacer that converts it to 170mm for 26" wheel bikes.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, the Manitou web-site now has a list for tools and parts:

Parts and Accessories | Manitou

The IVA cap for the Mattoc and the king can for the McCleod are listed.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> I wrote a comment a few pages back explaining about a travel loss issue I was having on my Mattoc Comp forks, I've emailed Manitou several days ago asking if the service guide is the same for the Comp model. So far I have had no reply. Does anyone else know if the same procedure and oil quantities apply? I have the semi bath oil and M Prep grease ready so I just want to service them asap and see how they feel working as they should.
> 
> Also to add to the comments about how much stanchion is exposed, on my fork there is 171mm, I bought the bike used and I'm starting to think the previous owner may have removed the spacer that converts it to 170mm for 26" wheel bikes.


The Comp is different than the expert and pro. I think the damper is different as is the air spring. With that said, do any of the video's mention the Comp model? I wonder if Dougal has any information on the Comp? If you are willing to explore, it might be of value to open the air spring and make sure it is all ok

edit. Poking around the internet I found a couple of places that said the comp has the MARS system. This system would have a small coil that works in conjunction with air pressure to act as the "spring. Do you put air in the fork from the top?

This system is most likely does not have travel adjust and you should not loose travel. Also, the fork may be set at 160 and may have a different amount of stanchion showing .


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Hey anybody see this:

__
http://instagr.am/p/6782EyzRm2/

It is supposed to be a "internal floating piston update to your Dorado air spring. It turns the system into a fully tuneable two-stage air spring offering more mid-stroke support and infinite ramp control."

This is supposed to be available for the Mattoc as well. Sounds very cool.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> Hey anybody see this:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/6782EyzRm2/
> ...


Wow! Nice find, even though my introduction to Manitou has been a bit bumpy, the range of tuning options coming out is great. IVA to adjust ramp up and IRT which from what I understand turns it into a dual air fork along with the King Can for the McLeod allows for a heap of adjustability!


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

I find IVA and IRT redundant to the point rendering IVA useless. IRT gives you better mid-stroke support and certain amount of end-stroke ramp up. A click or two of HBO and you're all set.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

imbecile said:


> I find IVA and IRT redundant to the point rendering IVA useless. IRT gives you better mid-stroke support and certain amount of end-stroke ramp up. A click or two of HBO and you're all set.


The HBO only controls the last 30mm of travel. The IRT and IVA will control the mid-stork - say the mid 80mm of travel.


----------



## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Exactly my point. I just think IRT is superior to the IVA. Can't wait for it as Mattoc upgrade.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

imbecile said:


> Exactly my point. I just think IRT is superior to the IVA. Can't wait for it as Mattoc upgrade.


Oh, I see. Yes, I agree with you. This will give almost infinite control of the middle stroke - a great way to make a great fork even better. Although I would also like to see an adjustable negative spring.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Dorado IVA Kit | Manitou



> Trail Tip: If your fork is diving too far ad- just your IVA. If your fork is diving too fast adjust your compression damping. Learn the difference. Don't be a punk.


That's how its done.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> The Comp is different than the expert and pro. I think the damper is different as is the air spring. With that said, do any of the video's mention the Comp model? I wonder if Dougal has any information on the Comp? If you are willing to explore, it might be of value to open the air spring and make sure it is all ok
> 
> edit. Poking around the internet I found a couple of places that said the comp has the MARS system. This system would have a small coil that works in conjunction with air pressure to act as the "spring. Do you put air in the fork from the top?
> 
> This system is most likely does not have travel adjust and you should not loose travel. Also, the fork may be set at 160 and may have a different amount of stanchion showing .


Thanks for the reply, I will strip the forks and post photos and details later in the week. It has an air valve at the bottom of the left fork, the right fork has an adjuster with ABS+ on it, I don't even know what this affects. Still no reply from Manitou which I am very disappointed about because I really want the full travel of the forks.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Thanks for the reply, I will strip the forks and post photos and details later in the week. It has an air valve at the bottom of the left fork, the right fork has an adjuster with ABS+ on it, I don't even know what this affects. Still no reply from Manitou which I am very disappointed about because I really want the full travel of the forks.


Well, that is interesting. I do wonder if the Comp model really has a MARS system or not.

As for Manitou, they may have all been in Europe for the bike show. I would give them some time but try calling as well.

Also, Manitou fork take a while to break in and generally save the last few mm for really big hits - maybe even mistakes. I have only used full travel (160mm) twice and both were bad landings - jumps with successive hits after landing. With that said, I routinely get 150-153 mm of travel on almost every ride. And again, the key with suspension is quality not quantity.


----------



## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> Well, that is interesting. I do wonder if the Comp model really has a MARS system or not.
> 
> As for Manitou, they may have all been in Europe for the bike show. I would give them some time but try calling as well.
> 
> Also, Manitou fork take a while to break in and generally save the last few mm for really big hits - maybe even mistakes. I have only used full travel (160mm) twice and both were bad landings - jumps with successive hits after landing. With that said, I routinely get 150-153 mm of travel on almost every ride. And again, the key with suspension is quality not quantity.


I'll give Manitou a few more days, I'm busy until the weekend anyway so hopefully they will reply by then. It's not that I need the full 160mm travel although I think I would use more than the 130mm I'm getting at the moment, the forks are in a poor state and it's not just the travel loss, they feel very harsh and sticky if that makes sense.
I will update later in the week.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

As far as I know the Comp has Mars Air. I can select the Comp model on their site but it doesn't show anything (blank), but using archive.org I can see it says Mars Air.

Don't know if it has been mentioned but they posted three quite nice maintenance videos!


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

That sounds like you need to drop the lowers and see if there is any bath oil. Also, when you rebuild add some prep-M to the area between the oil and dust seal. Use 10-40 motor oil for bath oil. 15 mL per side.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> I'll give Manitou a few more days, I'm busy until the weekend anyway so hopefully they will reply by then. It's not that I need the full 160mm travel although I think I would use more than the 130mm I'm getting at the moment, the forks are in a poor state and it's not just the travel loss, they feel very harsh and sticky if that makes sense.
> I will update later in the week.


I would let all the air out and see how far the fork compresses. You should get close to 160mm - maybe a little less thanks to the bottom out bumpers. But it does sound like your fork needs some TLC.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, it has been close to 4 months since I dropped the lowers and thought it might be a good idea to check the bath oil. At the same time, I thought I would have a peak at the oil in the positive chamber and see if any had migrated down to the negative. In the beginning of May I put in 3 mL of 0-40 oil on top of the piston. In my examination today, all the oil was in the negative chamber with nothing in the positive. Fork has been working fine so don't know what to make of it. All the bath oil was still there, which makes me believe that the seals are good and the bath oil will stay where it is supposed to.

I rebuilt the fork with 2 mL of motor oil on top of the piston (positive side) and used lots of prep-M in and around the piston. I also used 7 mL of bath oil per leg. 

Overall, the fork has been working fine. Very fun and always pushing me to go faster.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Hey anybody see this:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/6782EyzRm2/
> ...


Yes I've seen it. But I had to keep quiet until everyone else does.

I see this neat little device as having two possible tuning options. You should be able to run it with lower pressure (a little above starting pressure) so it extends the positive chamber volume after initial compression and gives a more linear stroke.

But you could also run it with higher pressure so it makes the air spring much more progressive.


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

It does not matter how much oil you put to positive chamber, it will make its way to negative chamber. I used prep-m only (no oil) and I'm hapy with performance. I also used 7ml of lubrication oil to each leg and it looks like its enough, but I store my bike verticaly, so maybe it helps to lubricate bushings better.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> It does not matter how much oil you put to positive chamber, it will make its way to negative chamber. I used prep-m only (no oil) and I'm hapy with performance. I also used 7ml of lubrication oil to each leg and it looks like its enough, but I store my bike verticaly, so maybe it helps to lubricate bushings better.


Thanks, you may be right. I do remember checking the positive chamber about a month ago and there was some oil over the piston so I was surprised that it was all gone.

The other odd thing was after the lowers were off and I was removing the the air piston assembly, the assembly was hard to push down - it kept pushing back like there was air still in the system - which was not possible as the top cap was off and I had removed all the air using the valve. Could it have been air in the negative chamber?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> The other odd thing was after the lowers were off and I was removing the the air piston assembly, the assembly was hard to push down - it kept pushing back like there was air still in the system - which was not possible as the top cap was off and I had removed all the air using the valve. Could it have been air in the negative chamber?


Yes that's the negative air sucking it back in.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I know some of the folks who started running this fork mid 2014 when it first became available already have complained of the piston oil migration, but I naively believed that it was a seal problem.

it's a design problem. the type and orientation of the seal guarantees migration. 

I no longer put oil in the positive chamber and instead use m-prep grease only. I want to get either the Magnum-style air cap or the new variable one over the winter when I do my next rebuilt. I see the value in the infinite tuning, but I'm guessing the Magnum cap will be cheaper and quite sufficient for my usage. I don't think I need to tune my fork to be linear one ride and progressive the next, and if I did, I would remove the air and change the number of tokens.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Yes that's the negative air sucking it back in.


But it was not sucking the rod in but pushing it out. Almost like there was still air in the positive chamber - or a vacuum in the negative pushing the rod back out. If I had not removed the top cap, I would have sworn I still had air in the chamber.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Thanks for the reply, I will strip the forks and post photos and details later in the week. It has an air valve at the bottom of the left fork, the right fork has an adjuster with ABS+ on it, I don't even know what this affects. Still no reply from Manitou which I am very disappointed about because I really want the full travel of the forks.


Quick update to this, I have finally received a reply from Manitou. The European technical service and warranty manager gave me the UK contact details, the UK contact asked me to return the forks to the shop I bought the bike from to have the forks assessed and serviced under warranty. Unfortunately I bought the bike used so this isn't possible.

I've asked for the service procedure or at least the type and quantities of oil required in each area of the forks so I can service them myself now and in the future. I have the M Prep grease ready and some semi bath oil if that is required?


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Quick update to this, I have finally received a reply from Manitou. The European technical service and warranty manager gave me the UK contact details, the UK contact asked me to return the forks to the shop I bought the bike from to have the forks assessed and serviced under warranty. Unfortunately I bought the bike used so this isn't possible.
> 
> I've asked for the service procedure or at least the type and quantities of oil required in each area of the forks so I can service them myself now and in the future. I have the M Prep grease ready and some semi bath oil if that is required?


Well another update, I had a very quick reply from the Euro guy, he said return the bike to the shop I bought it from and linked me the Expert service guide. I've replied again saying I bought the bike used, not from a dealer and is the guide for the Expert model the same for the Comp (which was all I asked in the original email 2 weeks ago). I think I'll have to just strip the forks and post what I find on here then go from there.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Well another update, I had a very quick reply from the Euro guy, he said return the bike to the shop I bought it from and linked me the Expert service guide. I've replied again saying I bought the bike used, not from a dealer and is the guide for the Expert model the same for the Comp (which was all I asked in the original email 2 weeks ago). I think I'll have to just strip the forks and post what I find on here then go from there.


You may have to. I wonder if the comp is just an expert with the ABS+ damper, not a MC2 damper?

At this point, leave the ABS+ damper side alone. Just remove all the air and open the air side top cap and see how much oil is on top of the air piston. Then drop the lowers and remove the air side and see what it looks like. Take pictures along the way and we can help you. Also, does it have an air-guide along the side of the fork?


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> You may have to. I wonder if the comp is just an expert with the ABS+ damper, not a MC2 damper?
> 
> At this point, leave the ABS+ damper side alone. Just remove all the air and open the air side top cap and see how much oil is on top of the air piston. Then drop the lowers and remove the air side and see what it looks like. Take pictures along the way and we can help you. Also, does it have an air-guide along the side of the fork?


Manitou have confirmed the Pro guide is the same for the Comp fork that I have so I think that you are right and it is just the ABS+ damper that might be different. I will remove the air and top cap and see if there is any oil in there.

Thanks for the replies and help.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

That is good news. Get the manitou tool kit, makes it a very easy fork to work on.


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> I wonder if the comp is just an expert with the ABS+ damper, not a MC2 damper?


The following specs are from the 2015 Hayes Catalog.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

This is how it looks with the top cap removed.

It says Dorado air system on the top cap. It was a bit worrying that the top cap and the lower 8mm bolt wasn't very tight. I removed all the air and the fork is compressing 150mm of the 171mm of stanchion that is showing from the lowest part of the crown.

When I first bought the bike there was 150mm of stanchion showing, I removed the air and extended the forks before adding air, this gave 171mm, after just 4 rides the fork is already sitting lower at 160mm.

I'll remove the lowers and add more photos soon.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> This is how it looks with the top cap removed.
> 
> It says Dorado air system on the top cap. It was a bit worrying that the top cap and the lower 8mm bolt wasn't very tight. I removed all the air and the fork is compressing 150mm of the 171mm of stanchion that is showing from the lowest part of the crown.
> 
> ...


Yes, I would do that. This should be very interesting.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

cobba said:


> The following specs are from the 2015 Hayes Catalog.
> 
> View attachment 1014079


Yes, but if the fork is MARS fork, where is the spring? I wonder if that was the plan originally but they just scraped it and went with the same air spring as the expert and pro. It is a very simple system and is probably cheaper than the MARS.


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## DoubleHelix (Oct 13, 2010)

So what is the difference between IVA and HBO?

Prices for the upgrade kits:
EB15: Hayes adds upgrade kits for Dorado & Mattoc, lighter Hexloc thru axle, pro tools & more!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

DoubleHelix said:


> So what is the difference between IVA and HBO?
> 
> Prices for the upgrade kits:
> EB15: Hayes adds upgrade kits for Dorado & Mattoc, lighter Hexloc thru axle, pro tools & more!


HBO only affects the last 30mm of travel. The IVA should impact the entire stroke. Theoretically, by reducing the volume of the positive chamber, you should be able to reduce the air pressure in the fork to make it even plusher but still have a great mid-stoke and be able to control bottom out with HBO.


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## DoubleHelix (Oct 13, 2010)

My Mattoc shows up tomorrow so havent played with any settings on it yet... gonna be a nice upgrade from my 2013 Fox 32 CTD!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

DoubleHelix said:


> My Mattoc shows up tomorrow so havent played with any settings on it yet... gonna be a nice upgrade from my 2013 Fox 32 CTD!


Congratulation!


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Have a new frame on the way and had been delaying ordering a fork due to wanting to research them a bit.

Good Lord. That bit of research turned into the better part of an afternoon. Between this and the pike thread (stage to a lesser degree) and 8 cups of coffee I finally was able to grasp what I was reading. I would rather have to deal with some of the minor issues with the Mattoc compared to bleeding the cartridge on the Pike. Granted, either issue may be remote but just in case.

So for less money I get the performance(maybe better) and more adjustability with a Mattoc, plus the new IRT, IVA, top cap options, seems like a no brainer. 

I might choose the Stage if the price were closer. Plus I don't care for the look of black stanchions. 

Sweep with HLR would be a nice option, but I can't seem to find one. So Mattoc it is.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

sherwin24 said:


> Have a new frame on the way and had been delaying ordering a fork due to wanting to research them a bit.
> 
> Good Lord. That bit of research turned into the better part of an afternoon. Between this and the pike thread (stage to a lesser degree) and 8 cups of coffee I finally was able to grasp what I was reading. I would rather have to deal with some of the minor issues with the Mattoc compared to bleeding the cartridge on the Pike. Granted, either issue may be remote but just in case.
> 
> ...


The mattoc is a great fork and as you have found, an absolute steal when you consider the price. Very easy to work on and built to last. I highly recommend getting the mattoc tool kit as well, as this will make working on the fork much easier. There are only a couple issues with the Mattoc and they have covered pretty well in this thread. Even 6 months in, I am still blown away by the performance.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DoubleHelix said:


> So what is the difference between IVA and HBO?
> 
> Prices for the upgrade kits:
> EB15: Hayes adds upgrade kits for Dorado & Mattoc, lighter Hexloc thru axle, pro tools & more!


To expand on what Vespanius has said:
IVA is for the air spring. It can be used to further shape the spring curve to make the fork work better for different terrain.
Because it's a spring it stores and returns energy.

HBO is a dead blow damper at the end of the stroke. It's like a bottom out bumper but it doesn't give any kickback. It just sucks the impact up at the end of the stroke and doesn't return it.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes, I would do that. This should be very interesting.


Sorry for the delay I've been very busy with work and also a charity event 82km mtb ride which has left me aching all over!

Anyway, I have removed the fork lower and had a bit of a surprise, the oil you can see in the plastic tub is what came out of the lhs fork leg, the rhs was completely empty! Luckily there seems to be no damage or wear that I can see.

The air piston will push all the way in the full 160mm travel so I'm not sure this is the cause of the lack of travel. Could there be a problem with the ABS+ side of the fork? The damper rod pushes in to around 138mm until it becomes solid and won't compress any further, it's about the same as the maximum travel I'm getting.

Any ideas? I can't do much more at this point but hopefully I'll get time later in the week.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

^ there are only 3 places the bath oil in the right leg could go:

1) out the bottom - you would think you would notice the oil and resulting dirt that is attracted, and a secure foot nut will prevent this

2) out past the main seal - you definitely notice the oil on the stanchion and resulting dirt attracted

3) past the rebound seal into the damper itself. which can certainly reduce travel because the damper becomes overfilled. *which is what my mattoc expert has done twice!*


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> Sorry for the delay I've been very busy with work and also a charity event 82km mtb ride which has left me aching all over!
> 
> Anyway, I have removed the fork lower and had a bit of a surprise, the oil you can see in the plastic tub is what came out of the lhs fork leg, the rhs was completely empty! Luckily there seems to be no damage or wear that I can see.
> 
> ...


Can you remove the air side and make sure no oil is in it? IT looks like a dorado air system to me? No?

Your ABS could be over filled. That is easy to check once the fork is all back together.


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

Curiosity got the better of me and I removed the ABS+ damper, clumsily I managed to spill some of the fork oil so I didn't get a chance to measure the oil height. The good thing is it is now set at 78mm and I fitted the ABS+ damper back in the fork and the damper rod compresses fully. It seems in my case the ABS+ had too much oil in it. I still don't know the weight of the oil or the height for the Comp model but I will try it at this level.
Clearly the forks have been neglected and were not working as they should, I'm really looking forward to trying it with the full travel and a fresh service!


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## mr-motorbiker (Jul 19, 2015)

ColinL said:


> ^ there are only 3 places the bath oil in the right leg could go:
> 
> 1) out the bottom - you would think you would notice the oil and resulting dirt that is attracted, and a secure foot nut will prevent this
> 
> ...


There was no oil around the adjuster, there was a slight oil line on the forks so it might have lost all the oil before my ownership. The oil in the damper looked very clean and light blue. It didn't look contaminated but there was too much oil in there.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

mr-motorbiker said:


> There was no oil around the adjuster, there was a slight oil line on the forks so it might have lost all the oil before my ownership. The oil in the damper looked very clean and light blue. It didn't look contaminated but there was too much oil in there.


Had the same problem, lubrication oil migrated trough seals to damper. Only way I found to avoid this is to use only 7ml lubrication oil in each leg. 
But not many people have this problem, maybe it depends on riding style, if you are too agressive, fork is more often in bottom of travel, pressures might be high enough to push oil to damper/negative spring


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Had the same problem, lubrication oil migrated trough seals to damper. Only way I found to avoid this is to use only 7ml lubrication oil in each leg.
> But not many people have this problem, maybe it depends on riding style, if you are too agressive, fork is more often in bottom of travel, pressures might be high enough to push oil to damper/negative spring


I have actually gone to 7 ml in each leg as well. I think this must be the reason Manitou shifted to the 7ml on their rebuild video.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

RoboS said:


> Had the same problem, lubrication oil migrated trough seals to damper. Only way I found to avoid this is to use only 7ml lubrication oil in each leg.
> But not many people have this problem, maybe it depends on riding style, if you are too agressive, fork is more often in bottom of travel, pressures might be high enough to push oil to damper/negative spring





Vespasianus said:


> I have actually gone to 7 ml in each leg as well. I think this must be the reason Manitou shifted to the 7ml on their rebuild video.


it seems you are both suggesting that the original spec of 15ml bath oil is too much, causing migration into the damper.

interesting theory, guys.. I just have one issue with it. if it were correct, there would be some bath oil in the damper-side leg. twice I've had none. I think the migration happens regardless of volume, and with lower volume you are just starving the sliding bits of lubrication sooner, and maybe removing the chance for you to notice when the damper becomes overfilled enough to affect travel.

if the migration was observed to not happen at all when using only 7ml, I would think that you'd always have about 7ml left in there when doing service.

I've just increased the frequency of service.


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

Bath oil would always migrate into my ABS+ Damper in my Tower Pro over time. Overfilled and could not compress damper all the way. Especially if bike was hanging vertically on the wall in garage.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> it seems you are both suggesting that the original spec of 15ml bath oil is too much, causing migration into the damper.
> 
> interesting theory, guys.. I just have one issue with it. if it were correct, there would be some bath oil in the damper-side leg. twice I've had none. I think the migration happens regardless of volume, and with lower volume you are just starving the sliding bits of lubrication sooner, and maybe removing the chance for you to notice when the damper becomes overfilled enough to affect travel.
> 
> ...


I moved to 7 mL bath oil on each side mainly because that is what the Manitou video suggested and also, I never seem to lose much bath oil in a Manitou fork- as long as I made sure none was leaking from the bottom. As the Mattoc has an oil seal to keep things in, I thought I would give it a try. So far, so good. Feels the same. Will check again at ~100 hours just to make sure.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Aaron1017 said:


> Bath oil would always migrate into my ABS+ Damper in my Tower Pro over time. Overfilled and could not compress damper all the way. Especially if bike was hanging vertically on the wall in garage.


Interesting. It may have the same seal head.

My bike is stored on a rack under the top tube, so it's horizontal. I'm sure my issue is caused by riding...


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

What is everyone using for the damper lube in the Mattoc? After reading through everything, it seems Dougal has had the best luck with the Motorex products, with the Supergliss being mentioned highly. Unfortunately the Supergliss is impossible to find stateside. Fox 20W Gold sounds to be very similar with tackifiers meant to keep things coated. 

I have gallons of Mobil Delvac1, which interestingly the cSt is very similar to the Fox Gold. I know the Motorex Semi-bath is actually a motor oil too. Biggest concern is whether the huge additive pack of a diesel oil will cause problems in the fork. Makes me wonder if that is why Supergliss works so well, it is purely for lubrication and coating, not so much to clean and suspend contaminants, which forks really should have very little contamination compared to an engine.

I think trying the Fox Gold might offer good results like Supergliss, unless it too is a rebadged engine oil, which I don't think it is. Motorex semi-bath, Supergliss, Delvac1, and Fox Gold all have a similar high cSt, which appears to be what manufacturers are finding works best in a non open bath fork. Question is, do they all work equally well, or is there more to it? Is it possible the engine oils (rebadged or not) are more susceptible to getting past seals and such?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

For lube in the lower legs I am using Fox gold and in the damper using Motorex 5W fork oil. 

Only had a handful of rides but seems to perform very well.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm using what Manitou recommended through emails, Motorex Semi-Bath for sliding bits and on top of the Air piston, and Motorex 5w Fork Oil for the Damper, all which can be found on Ebay and Amazon. But Motorex Semi-bath is 5w-40 and some use sythetic motor oil for that bit instead.

Amazon.com: Racing Blend Fork Oil - 5W - 1L., Manufacturer: Motorex, RACING BLND FORK OIL 5W 1LTR: Automotive

http://www.amazon.com/Motorex-Bike-...=1442531431&sr=8-1&keywords=motorex+semi+bath


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I am using simple 10-40 Mobil 1 full synthetic for bath oil (7 mL per side) and for the air piston (2 mL).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Had the same problem, lubrication oil migrated trough seals to damper. Only way I found to avoid this is to use only 7ml lubrication oil in each leg.
> But not many people have this problem, maybe it depends on riding style, if you are too agressive, fork is more often in bottom of travel, pressures might be high enough to push oil to damper/negative spring


The bath and damper oil are different colours and consistency. If the bath oil gets into the damper the oil will be visibly contaminated.

Just take a look at a Fox CTD fork for mixed bath and damper oil. Or a Fox Float fork for mixed air chamber lube and bath oil. It's always obvious.



Aaron1017 said:


> Bath oil would always migrate into my ABS+ Damper in my Tower Pro over time. Overfilled and could not compress damper all the way. Especially if bike was hanging vertically on the wall in garage.


When you hang a bike like that the bath oil goes into the cavity between the lower leg, the stanchion and slides down against the bushings. It's not even immersing the end-cap seal. I'm not convinced migration is even possible through a healthy lower damper seal. But it can't happen during storage.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

riiz said:


> I'm using what Manitou recommended through emails, Motorex Semi-Bath for sliding bits and on top of the Air piston, and Motorex 5w Fork Oil for the Damper, all which can be found on Ebay and Amazon. But Motorex Semi-bath is 5w-40 and some use sythetic motor oil for that bit instead.
> 
> Amazon.com: Racing Blend Fork Oil - 5W - 1L., Manufacturer: Motorex, RACING BLND FORK OIL 5W 1LTR: Automotive
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Motorex-Bike-...=1442531431&sr=8-1&keywords=motorex+semi+bath


yep.

to specifically address the question that was asked, fox gold is 20wt, and it's a bath oil. it is way too heavy for use in any damper.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Sorry, not sure why I wrote damper oil...meant lowers and on top of the air piston. Quite a difference.

Since some are going with less oil in the lowers and on air piston top, was trying to find out if there was a correlation to the oil migrating using one type of oil compared to another?

Sorry for the confusion, I even read what I wrote to check for errors before I posted, just one of those days.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sherwin24 said:


> Sorry, not sure why I wrote damper oil...meant lowers and on top of the air piston. Quite a difference.
> 
> Since some are going with less oil in the lowers and on air piston top, was trying to find out if there was a correlation to the oil migrating using one type of oil compared to another?
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, I even read what I wrote to check for errors before I posted, just one of those days.


Okay that makes sense. What happens in with the MARS air is the heavy oil doesn't get completely wiped off the inside of the piston by the air seal going past. So some transfers up and is dissolved by the air chamber lube above. This keeps happening.

A seal to stop that would add a lot of friction so it's better to simply deal with it as maintenance. The grease on the MARS coils can also suck up and hold a significant amount of bath oil.

The Mattoc has a tight seal between the air chamber and lower legs and the same on the other side. I haven't seen any oil migration in the ones I look after yet.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Regarding the choice of oil, where I usually order bike stuff the Motorex Semi-Bath went out the catalog and was replaced with:

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Motorex/Xperience-FS-X-5W-40-Federgabeloel-p8207/

Seems like a reasonable price, any experiences here with it? Seeing the designation it looks like engine oil under a different name...

I just picked up a liter of full synthetic 5W40 engine oil from a local automotive/garage shop. No problems so far, its quite thick and 'sticky' so I can understand the choice for effectively engine oil for lubrication and let's me wonder why others use such 'thin' oils. When I pulled the lowers for the first time after I used this, it was almost impossible to tell from new.


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## mikedesign (Jan 25, 2004)

A question if I may?

I have a mattoc pro I cant let that fork go I love it , Can I shim the travel down to 130mm id like to but not sure if it will work? Anyone done this, thought about doing this?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

I think this has been mentioned. It can be done with extra spacers.


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## mikedesign (Jan 25, 2004)

Trajan said:


> I think this has been mentioned. It can be done with extra spacers.


I'm reading through the 40 or so pages here at the moment, I have found 1 mention so far and its the same question I have , It sound s stupid lowering the travel out of a 160 fork but the tuneability of it is the thing I love and the others I don't know if they can be manipulated the same


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Today I found that it was incorrect to not use any oil in air spring, after 20km ride my fork lowered from 160 to 120mm, but there was no loss of air pressure. I used prep-m only to lubricate piston, but it seems its not enough. Just to test it, I added 3cc of supergliss on top of air piston and gone fore a short 7km ride, fork did not lower its travel.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

mikedesign said:


> A question if I may?
> 
> I have a mattoc pro I cant let that fork go I love it , Can I shim the travel down to 130mm id like to but not sure if it will work? Anyone done this, thought about doing this?


It can be lowered down to 140mm internally, and yes you use travel spacers to do so.

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV-B.pdf

Look at page 10 to see what the spacers look like.


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## mikedesign (Jan 25, 2004)

riiz said:


> It can be lowered down to 140mm internally, and yes you use travel spacers to do so.
> 
> http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV-B.pdf
> 
> Look at page 10 to see what the spacers look like.


Riiz

thanks for taking the time to respond, however my question is can it be spaced down to 130mm

can it be taken that extra 10mm ,

i have watched the video where it goes to 140 with the spacers in there but wondered what happens when you add an extra

even in its 140mm guise still makes it an inch longer than the 130mm fork im about to take off the new bike and that would slacken the head angle a bit?

Also forgot to mention this is the 650b which is the change for me from 26 I have already got the parts needed for the change

In fact if no one has done it i might just have to be the experimentalist, if thats a real word


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mikedesign said:


> Riiz
> 
> thanks for taking the time to respond, however my question is can it be spaced down to 130mm
> 
> ...


Yes you can drop it down with extra spacers. I don't think that other guy was being a dick, I just think he was saying someone else has tried to do it and it works. I think they dropped it down to 120. They issue is that Manitou only give you spacers in the box to drop to 140. You need to get more spacers to go to 130.


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## mikedesign (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey vespasianus that's good to hear on the spacers


I didn't think he was being a dick either I'm happy for any information and appreciate the post he took time to write


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Regarding the choice of oil, where I usually order bike stuff the Motorex Semi-Bath went out the catalog and was replaced with:
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/de/Motorex/Xperience-FS-X-5W-40-Federgabeloel-p8207/
> 
> ...


Motorex removed the Semi-Bath oil from their bike catalogue quite recently. Apparently the original order from Manitou back in the day was so large they only just got through it!

The FS-X 5W40 must be a new oil, it's not in my supplier catalogues. It will be the best replacement Motorex have for Semi-Bath. But it'll take a while to get through a litre of it!


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

I've got the IRT for the Mattoc on order (and one for the Dorado as well). Once I get it installed, and get it dialed in after a few rides I'll report back to let everyone know how it feels!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> I've got the IRT for the Mattoc on order (and one for the Dorado as well). Once I get it installed, and get it dialed in after a few rides I'll report back to let everyone know how it feels!


Nice! I am thinking of this as well and can't wait for your report.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

IntenseMack10 said:


> I've got the IRT for the Mattoc on order (and one for the Dorado as well). Once I get it installed, and get it dialed in after a few rides I'll report back to let everyone know how it feels!


where did you order it? I've been looking.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Motorex removed the Semi-Bath oil from their bike catalogue quite recently. Apparently the original order from Manitou back in the day was so large they only just got through it!
> 
> The FS-X 5W40 must be a new oil, it's not in my supplier catalogues. It will be the best replacement Motorex have for Semi-Bath. But it'll take a while to get through a litre of it!


Dougal, is this shimming instruction

Google-Ergebnis für https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f33/mullen119/DSC00830.jpg

for the ABS + Damper usable for the MC2 as well or what do I have to consider there?

Does somebody have fotographs of it? 

2) Can I use the Motorex Supergliss for the airpiston, too, or will it move too easily from pos to neg air chamber and I´ll have to use something thicker?


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

ColinL said:


> where did you order it? I've been looking.


Me too. Not even sure what is in the kit, all I see is for the Dorado and 2 new caps. I take it this comes with a new cap that has the air valve, but not the blowoff?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Dougal, is this shimming instruction
> 
> Google-Ergebnis für https://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f33/mullen119/DSC00830.jpg
> 
> ...


Yes the MC2 is tunable with exactly the same shim methods. I cannot recall right now whether the shim sizes are the same or not. There is also the complication that the HSC adds preload to the shim stack so thicker shim stacks will run with more preload.

I am using Supergliss in my air piston without any problems.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yes the MC2 is tunable with exactly the same shim methods. I cannot recall right now whether the shim sizes are the same or not. There is also the complication that the HSC adds preload to the shim stack so thicker shim stacks will run with more preload.
> 
> I am using Supergliss in my air piston without any problems.


Does this mean, the MC2 Damper is actually the same as the abs +, only that it has external hsc adjustment? Or are there a few differences perhaps differrent piston design or bypasses?

Becasue it would mean there is a great overlap pf hsc with lsc and when I use more hsc there will easily be a sensation of spiking on repetitive highspeedhits,no? On the DVO Diamond they say, the HSC works better more controlled than the Mattoc´s as it doe not get spikey.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Does this mean, the MC2 Damper is actually the same as the abs +, only that it has external hsc adjustment? Or are there a few differences perhaps differrent piston design or bypasses?
> 
> Becasue it would mean there is a great overlap pf hsc with lsc and when I use more hsc there will easily be a sensation of spiking on repetitive highspeedhits,no? On the DVO Diamond they say, the HSC works better more controlled than the Mattoc´s as it doe not get spikey.


The mc2 is a completely new design as it also fits adjustable hbo inside. It also runs lsc bypass in a very different way to abs+.

But it will respond to tuning in exactly the same way as abs+. It just has additional options too.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> The mc2 is a completely new design as it also fits adjustable hbo inside. It also runs lsc bypass in a very different way to abs+.
> 
> But it will respond to tuning in exactly the same way as abs+. It just has additional options too.


I weigh 93 kilos with protection. Can you make a proposal which shim I should change to gain more riding height, or better LSC? Have some shims here ;-)


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

bansaiman said:


> I weigh 93 kilos with protection. Can you make a proposal which shim I should change to gain more riding height, or better LSC? Have some shims here ;-)


that is not XC racer weight, but also not overly heavy. a stock mattoc with the proper amount of fluid in the damper and air pressure* will should perform well for riders of your weight.

* make sure to always set sag with all your riding gear on, carrying water, and all dampers set to full soft / open. if you don't do that, you can easily set the air spring too soft.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> that is not XC racer weight, but also not overly heavy. a stock mattoc with the proper amount of fluid in the damper and air pressure* will should perform well for riders of your weight.
> 
> * make sure to always set sag with all your riding gear on, carrying water, and all dampers set to full soft / open. if you don't do that, you can easily set the air spring too soft.


Yup, the Mattoc has a large air space and I think this is the reason why a few PSI can make the fork feel very different. A 2-3 PSI change can have a big change.

With my old Nixon, I used to use 2.5 wt oil. Don't know why but I just liked it better. I wonder what it would do with the Mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Yup, the Mattoc has a large air space and I think this is the reason why a few PSI can make the fork feel very different. A 2-3 PSI change can have a big change.
> 
> With my old Nixon, I used to use 2.5 wt oil. Don't know why but I just liked it better. I wonder what it would do with the Mattoc?


Do you remember if you went to 2.5wt on the Nixon for rebound or compression reasons?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Do you remember if you went to 2.5wt on the Nixon for rebound or compression reasons?


I wanted a faster rebound and also the reduced compression dampening. Although, I think it might have reduced the compression dampening too much as I would tend to run the TPC+ all the way closed.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

ColinL said:


> that is not XC racer weight, but also not overly heavy. a stock mattoc with the proper amount of fluid in the damper and air pressure* will should perform well for riders of your weight.
> 
> * make sure to always set sag with all your riding gear on, carrying water, and all dampers set to full soft / open. if you don't do that, you can easily set the air spring too soft.


Sorry, but I am none of the riders that takes a mattoc when he should use a marvel and with gear I have a weight of 95 kilos. So it still rides too deep in the travel with pike spacers and dives while braking on steep terrain that geometry changes dramatically. And I do not want to fully close the lsc (it anyway does not really help) as it takes the sensitivity out. So please just don´t contradict me without knowing my background:madman: when I really ask for advice from Douglas who knows his stuff


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Sorry, but I am none of the riders that takes a mattoc when he should use a marvel and with gear I have a weight of 95 kilos. So it still rides too deep in the travel with pike spacers and dives while braking on steep terrain that geometry changes dramatically. And I do not want to fully close the lsc (it anyway does not really help) as it takes the sensitivity out. So please just don´t contradict me without knowing my background:madman: when I really ask for advice from Douglas who knows his stuff


Your weight is not too different from me. What kind of bike is it on and what pressure and settings are you using?

I am running mine on a Turner 5 spot at 160mm. The bike has a slack head angle (65-66). I use only 60 psi in the forks, with 2 clicks of HSC, 2 click of LSC, 1-2 clicks of HBO and rebound set at 3 click from full fast. Fork ride high in its travel.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

ColinL said:


> where did you order it? I've been looking.


Manitou has them in stock. If your LBS is a dealer they can order one for you. If not give manitou a call and ask where you can get one. They might sell direct but I'm not positive on that.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

sherwin24 said:


> Me too. Not even sure what is in the kit, all I see is for the Dorado and 2 new caps. I take it this comes with a new cap that has the air valve, but not the blowoff?


There isn't really a kit for the mattoc like for the dorado. It's the IRT and the new upper air cap with the air spacers underneath that are sold separately. This is because if you go the IRT route you don't really need the spacers.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Have you seen this?

https://bikemarkt-images.mtb-news.de/ls/19/1978/1978645-large.jpg

A Mattoc Comp with black stanchions. MY2016? Was to be expected, since black is all the rage and the Magnum has them too.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Stratus said:


> Have you seen this?
> 
> https://bikemarkt-images.mtb-news.de/ls/19/1978/1978645-large.jpg
> 
> A Mattoc Comp with black stanchions. MY2016? Was to be expected, since black is all the rage and the Magnum has them too.


If you look on the European boards, there are mattocs in all sorts of colors. Blue and green lowers and with all sorts of decals But I think you are right, they will come out with a Black Mattoc for 2016 with the IVA top cap.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

https://www.bike-mailorder.de/Bike-Teile/Gabel/Federgabel/Mattoc-Pro-Federgabel.html

Some interesting differences can be seen here on all controls and caps...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Have you seen this?
> 
> https://bikemarkt-images.mtb-news.de/ls/19/1978/1978645-large.jpg
> 
> A Mattoc Comp with black stanchions. MY2016? Was to be expected, since black is all the rage and the Magnum has them too.


Yes MY2016 is going black. 2016 is the new 2006 for those who remember the Travis and Nixon from back then.. A shop local to me has the Specialized 27+ hardtail with a Magnum Comp all in black.

OEM's get custom graphics and colours. There are some very cool looking combinations out there.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I prefer non black stanchions, but I understand I am in the minority. Good thing I bought a 2015.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Yes MY2016 is going black. 2016 is the new 2006 for those who remember the Travis and Nixon from back then.. A shop local to me has the Specialized 27+ hardtail with a Magnum Comp all in black.
> 
> OEM's get custom graphics and colours. There are some very cool looking combinations out there.


Anything else new? A new air piston to stop oil from moving from the positive to negative chamber?


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## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

Is the Mattoc steerer tube dimensions standard?

Am I the only one having a little knock/clunk problem after installing the fork?

Or the problem might be the headset?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sherwin24 said:


> I prefer non black stanchions, but I understand I am in the minority. Good thing I bought a 2015.


I prefer the gold too. I've got one pair of black stanchion Travis and otherwise I've been able to keep the gold flowing.

My gold 2005 Nixons have done 10 years and the stanchions are still perfect. I resized the bushings in the lower legs this year. Had to give them a 10th birthday present.

I haven't heard of any internal changes in the Mattoc other than all the air spring devices. That doesn't mean nothing is happening, it just means I don't know about it.

I do have an update regarding the damper oil.
These are shipping with blue Maxima 5wt oil. The best viscosity match in the Motorex line is 2.5wt.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CHINOTAKER said:


> Is the Mattoc steerer tube dimensions standard?
> 
> Am I the only one having a little knock/clunk problem after installing the fork?
> 
> Or the problem might be the headset?


Check your headset. I had a knock and clunk and it turns out, it was my headset.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Dougal said:


> I prefer the gold too. I've got one pair of black stanchion Travis and otherwise I've been able to keep the gold flowing.
> 
> My gold 2005 Nixons have done 10 years and the stanchions are still perfect. I resized the bushings in the lower legs this year. Had to give them a 10th birthday present.
> 
> ...


Nice! I can't see black stanchions holding up that well after 10 years.

Any idea why they would change the damper oil to a lighter weight? Seems they would have to change the tuning to change the weight. You didn't hear them suggesting the change to the lighter weight for prior years as well by chance? Can't imagine the IRT making the change necessary. Is the IRT going to come stock on the '16 Mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sherwin24 said:


> Nice! I can't see black stanchions holding up that well after 10 years.
> 
> Any idea why they would change the damper oil to a lighter weight? Seems they would have to change the tuning to change the weight. You didn't hear them suggesting the change to the lighter weight for prior years as well by chance? Can't imagine the IRT making the change necessary. Is the IRT going to come stock on the '16 Mattoc?


Lighter oil gives more of the damping to the shim stacks and less to the piston ports. I'm not entirely sure how far back this change goes or which models it will matter most to. But I'll be changing all my recent forks and shocks over to 2.5wt Motorex at their next service to see.

Visually the Maxima is blue, the current Motorex is red/pink but I was also getting clear/yellow Motorex about 5 years ago.

I've just changed the King Can McLeod over to 2.5wt. My original McLeod still runs the original oil and I plan to leave it un-opened for a long time yet.

I'm not yet sure where we'll find IRT. I did just read a review on a bike with a 29" Magnum fitted OEM with the IVA spacer setup.


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## CHINOTAKER (Nov 1, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Check your headset. I had a knock and clunk and it turns out, it was my headset.


How did you fix it? new bearings or new complete headset


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> I wanted a faster rebound and also the reduced compression dampening. Although, I think it might have reduced the compression dampening too much as I would tend to run the TPC+ all the way closed.


So now I understand why you asked! I may give this a shot before the temps fall here....


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Another German online store that shows pictures of a different looking Mattoc Manitou Mattoc Pro Federgabel 26" - 160mm | Kaufen | Action Sports Bike Onlineshop
Something barrel-like can be seen on the left (air spring) top cap, weird looking for sure - wonder if it has something to do with IRT or IVA? Different rebound knob, probably different left bottom cap, some different lines on the crown above the stanchions, slimmed down compression knobs - lot's of differences to the current fork.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CHINOTAKER said:


> How did you fix it? new bearings or new complete headset


I ended up just replacing the bearings. Very easy. I would first start be trying to tighten the head set.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> I ended up just replacing the bearings. Very easy. I would first start be trying to tighten the head set.


Definitely, after swapping the fork. Top cap gets tightened lightly- remember it's just a star nut held in by friction - maybe 2nm at most. Put weight on the bars while doing this to ensure all the slack is out.

Then tighten the stem bolts.

Somewhere in there, ensure your front wheel and bars are lined up.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Just a quick update: I got the kits in. I should be getting them installed in the next few days.

The IRT for the Mattoc will be a very simple install: just unthread the cap on the top of the fork on the air side and replace it with the IRT. So this means a clarification on something I had posted earlier. For the Mattoc it is an either / or with the IRT and the air cap with the volume spacers underneath. Since they both install in the same place you cant do both.

The kits for both include a recommended air pressure chart on the instructions to get you going with air pressure. 

All in all the stuff is *****en looking (especially the relief caps for the Dorado) so Im looking forward to getting it all installed and reporting back!


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

And please, post some pictures!


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Intense, where did you get your hands on mattoc irt? Really want to give it a try

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Just a quick update: I got the kits in. I should be getting them installed in the next few days.
> 
> The IRT for the Mattoc will be a very simple install: just unthread the cap on the top of the fork on the air side and replace it with the IRT. So this means a clarification on something I had posted earlier. For the Mattoc it is an either / or with the IRT and the air cap with the volume spacers underneath. Since they both install in the same place you cant do both.
> 
> ...


The cap with spacers is I believe called IVA. Incremental Volume Adjustment.

You can choose between IVA or IRT. I've seen reviews lately talk of IVA being stock in some Magnums.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I take it the air cap has an air valve to fill the top chamber, then when that pressure is reached it allows it to slide upward? Very interested to hear how it works out. I like the idea of being able to tune it a bit more but hoping that it does not give it the feel of a DRCV, where you lose the progression at the end. Since it's not making a larger chamber like DRCV, I would think it doesn't, but I am fuzzy on how it all works. Coupled with HBO it could really set the Mattoc apart if it works how I would hope.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> And please, post some pictures!


What he said, post some pictures!


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

sherwin24 said:


> I take it the air cap has an air valve to fill the top chamber, then when that pressure is reached it allows it to slide upward? Very interested to hear how it works out. I like the idea of being able to tune it a bit more but hoping that it does not give it the feel of a DRCV, where you lose the progression at the end. Since it's not making a larger chamber like DRCV, I would think it doesn't, but I am fuzzy on how it all works. Coupled with HBO it could really set the Mattoc apart if it works how I would hope.


Yes, there is now a 2nd air valve (seemingly going back in time before the positive and negative chambers were self equalizing and you had an air valve for each)

My explanation is just based on my understanding of the system, so take that for what it's worth. The IRT installs into the positive air chamber. On the underside of the air cap is a "slider post" (don't know the official term) that the IRT air piston slides on. Once pressurized, the piston extends its farthest position into the main air chamber. During fork compression the pressure in the main chamber is constantly pushing on the IRT piston, but will only over power the pressure in the IRT chamber at a certain point (corresponding to a certain amount of travel).

So, in actuality, your total spring air volume is reduced as there are now new parts sitting in the air space that was previously unoccupied. But the fact that it's a separate air chamber inside the main causes the different feel and reaction to different amounts of travel. But its also why you can lower your main air spring pressure to have a more supple feel right off the top, but not have an overly mushy fork that dives or bottoms too much.

Maybe @Dougal can offer a more elegant explanation.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'd say you did a damn good job of describing it so I can grasp it now 

Sounds like it is different than DRCV then and might just be brilliant.

One more question. Can you adjust how far up or down the shaft the air piston sits to make the chamber larger or smaller? Seems that would offer even more fine tuning, but possibly over complicating it also.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

sherwin24 said:


> I'd say you did a damn good job of describing it so I can grasp it now
> 
> Sounds like it is different than DRCV then and might just be brilliant.
> 
> One more question. Can you adjust how far up or down the shaft the air piston sits to make the chamber larger or smaller? Seems that would offer even more fine tuning, but possibly over complicating it also.


No, it is what it is. I see what you mean though.

If that was something that was wanted during design, I could see the issue being how to seal the air piston around the shaft with the shaft having some mechanism to adjust piston position (like a removable pin for example).


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Someone please post a picture of what these drop in acronyms look like!

Edit: Okay, so both are listed under the "wrench" tab on Manitou's site.


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Mattoc IVA kit:







A simple token system?! With all this chatter I was under the impression that it was externally adjustable like MRP's ramp control. I've had a couple RS tokens glued on for a few months.

Mattoc IRD kit:







Bueno! Can the travel spacers/IVA tokens attach to the IRD shaft to further adjust progression of each chamber?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Mattoc IVA kit:
> View attachment 1019481
> 
> A simple token system?! With all this chatter I was under the impression that it was externally adjustable like MRP's ramp control. I've had a couple RS tokens glued on for a few months.


That's the IVA, haha. The IRT is a separate piece. Like I posted earlier, you can only use one or the other. Manitou has pics of them on their site:

Dorado kit:
Dorado MRD Kit | Manitou

Mattoc IRT:
MRD IRT | Manitou

It is technically externally adjustable through air spring pressure.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dorado Spring Curves with IRT shamelessly reposting from Zac Smith's Instagram:

__
http://instagr.am/p/67970ETRpV/


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Can somebody explain what I should understand with this diagram ? I'm interested but I do not have the knowledge or background to understand it...


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Samos said:


> Can somebody explain what I should understand with this diagram ? I'm interested but I do not have the knowledge or background to understand it...
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


The curves are showing the air spring with the same main spring pressure, but different amounts in the IRT system.
The lowest curve is the same pressure in both, then as you add more pressure to the IRT valve it becomes more and more progressive from the mid-stroke and deeper into the travel.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

So it's like to have a smaller air spring volume. Or is there any other difference? What does the equalization point have for influence on the feeling. I understand that's when the pressure in the main chamber equal to pressure in the IRT chamber is, due to the reduction of air spring volume because of the move in the travel. But what should be the improvement in the feeling? Should the fork remains as smooth at he beginning of the travel and gain in support at that equalization point ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Ah, very interesting. I once asked what "Air spring preload" would do, and this basically is a realization of the concept I was trying to figure out.

Still need to figure out what BOS's TRC does... guessing it's just a piston with a valve that can be manually open/closed that's in the middle of the air spring, that shutters out a large % of the volume, leaving a much smaller air volume (with the same pressure) for the air spring to work with.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Samos said:


> So it's like to have a smaller air spring volume. Or is there any other difference? What does the equalization point have for influence on the feeling. I understand that's when the pressure in the main chamber equal to pressure in the IRT chamber is, due to the reduction of air spring volume because of the move in the travel. But what should be the improvement in the feeling? Should the fork remains as smooth at he beginning of the travel and gain in support at that equalization point ?
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


It's like having two air chambers that you can tune individually. One for start of the stroke, one for end of the stroke.

The pressures you run in each can change it completely.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Dougal said:


> It's like having two air chambers that you can tune individually. One for start of the stroke, one for end of the stroke.
> 
> The pressures you run in each can change it completely.


If he understands that, then I must be overthinking things... cause it doesn't work as I expected, but I understand it better (makes more sense to me, clearing out doubt) from that graph, and it seems even more useful this way.

Learned a lot about manitou just now, looking at the instagram account and seeing stuff like that Dorado upgrade kit... like how TSR works (since Manitou uses cartridge style air spring and damper).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

In my mind, it is a way to infinity control the mid-stroke, with having the HBO to control the end. In that picture, at the 60mm point, the curves starts changing depending upon the IRT pressure. A pretty neat system that is just another way to tune the system to your liking. You could drop the pressure to make the fork even more supple for the low stuff. I assume the lower pressure would also require a lighter rebound dampening - which may explain the recent move to a lighter oil.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

It sounds like the icing on the cake for the Mattoc. It looks so simple, yet effective.

Vespasianus, you may have just solved the puzzle on the new fork oil spec.  I wonder if that means the 2016 Mattocs will be shipping with this already installed? Either way, nice to see Manitou not only making easy user servicable forks, but allowing us the tools to tune them quite a bit as well.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

On the Mattoc tech video they say IVA will be included on 2015 and on so IRT would need to be purchased and dropped in. 

Looking forward to a ride report from Intense.


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## Jaxxx (Jun 16, 2014)

Who has the best price in a mattoc 27.5 right now? Looking to try one


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Jaxxx said:


> Who has the best price in a mattoc 27.5 right now? Looking to try one


Manitou Mattoc PRO 160mm Tapered 27.5 matt black | Manitou Shop

$511 plus shipping.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

*Mattoc IRT Installation & Ride Impressions*

Finally got out on some rare damp SoCal trails for some testing this morning.

Quick impression on the IRT its self: the IRT for the Mattoc is the one in all the pics with the white air piston. I was a little disappointed that this piston is plastic and only has an o-ring as the piston seal. For comparison the Dorado IRT has a piston almost exactly like the main air piston: precision machined aluminum with both an o-ring and piston glyde ring on it. Just my thoughts though.

The installation is about as easy as it could be. Just depressurize you air chamber, unthread the cap on the top of the fork on the air side, then thread in the IRT in its place. I put some Prep M grease on the piston o-ring and put a drop of semi bath on the piston shaft on both sides of the piston. You then pressurize the IRT side first, then the main air chamber.

Ride impressions:
I weigh about 165lb kitted. Previously I ran about 50-52psi. After servicing the fork I had gotten the fork to where I would just use all the travel on certain trail features where it was needed. Never felt harsh bottom (I always run the HBO backed off all the way).

With the IRT I started with about 85psi in the IRT and about 48psi in the main.

Riding a very familiar trail that is very rocky with both high speed sections and tight tech as well as one small drop to flat where I usually hit full travel, the first thing I noticed was the fork felt stiffer (not structurally stiffer), yet is was not any harsher. So, I would attribute this to it sitting up higher in mid travel and not being overly soft in the middle. I didn't quite get full travel at the spot I normally do.

For run 2 I dropped the pressures to 80 in the IRT and about 45 in the main. I also backed off rebound 1 click. I then rode a different trail that is steeper and faster and just as rocky or more so. It didn't feel too different from the higher pressures. But on a rough fast trail I certainly noticed and appreciated it sitting up higher but still being nice and compliant at the beginning, as compared to pre IRT.

The last 2 runs we did were on a really quick trail. I left the previous settings. There it was more of the initial, being more mid stroke support and an overall better feel in the front end.

I still have a lot of different trails I need to ride it on, but overall I'd say it is absolutely a worthwhile upgrade. Its super easy to install and it cures a problem I guess I never really noticed I had, with the only down side being that it seems a little harder to achieve full travel. This last part is to be expected as your main spring volume has decreased just by virtue of placing more parts in there.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Finally got out on some rare damp SoCal trails for some testing this morning.
> 
> Quick impression on the IRT its self: the IRT for the Mattoc is the one in all the pics with the white air piston. I was a little disappointed that this piston is plastic and only has an o-ring as the piston seal. For comparison the Dorado IRT has a piston almost exactly like the main air piston: precision machined aluminum with both an o-ring and piston glyde ring on it. Just my thoughts though.
> 
> ...


Great update. Does he lower main air-pressure make the fork plusher in the small stuff? Do you think it makes the HBO obsolete?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Great update. Does he lower main air-pressure make the fork plusher in the small stuff? Do you think it makes the HBO obsolete?


So far, I wouldn't say MORE plush, I'd say it keeps up with the decrease in the air volume. So, it has retained (roughly) the same plushness it always had while gaining the extra mid travel support. Playing with air pressures more I think it could be possible to become more plush.

As for the HBO, honestly, for ME and MY riding I could have done without the HBO all along, even before the IRT. While I ride aggressive and ride rough trails, I don't ride the bike like it's a mini DH bike as I have a V10 for DH riding. Personally I still consider myself a DH rider who also loves to ride trail. So, I know there are probably plenty of riders who love having the HBO and maybe appreciate it being there every ride, I think I could have done without.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> So far, I wouldn't say MORE plush, I'd say it keeps up with the decrease in the air volume. So, it has retained (roughly) the same plushness it always had while gaining the extra mid travel support. Playing with air pressures more I think it could be possible to become more plush.
> 
> As for the HBO, honestly, for ME and MY riding I could have done without the HBO all along, even before the IRT. While I ride aggressive and ride rough trails, I don't ride the bike like it's a mini DH bike as I have a V10 for DH riding. Personally I still consider myself a DH rider who also loves to ride trail. So, I know there are probably plenty of riders who love having the HBO and maybe appreciate it being there every ride, I think I could have done without.


Thanks. The IRT does seem like a very useful method to further improve the ride of this fork. Personally, I am now running more HBO than when I started with the fork. Originally, I used more air pressure with no HBO but dropped the pressure and increased the HSC and HBO. I find that I will bottom out harshly if I don't use 1-2 clicks of HBO. With HBO, it just touches full travel with that bottomless feel. I am running 60 psi (I am 200 lbs).


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Interesting note for those 29er guys still looking at this thread that are wishing for a Mattoc 29. Following Zac Smith's Instagram since it was mentioned some 10pgs back and he put something up yesterday about servicing the next round of Mattoc. I posted saying I wish they would release a 29er version to go along with my McLeod and he responded to me saying.....Stay tuned on that one. Hope that means that they are actually looking at building a AM/Trail fork for us in the near future!! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Interesting note for those 29er guys still looking at this thread that are wishing for a Mattoc 29. Following Zac Smith's Instagram since it was mentioned some 10pgs back and he put something up yesterday about servicing the next round of Mattoc. I posted saying I wish they would release a 29er version to go along with my McLeod and he responded to me saying.....Stay tuned on that one. Hope that means that they are actually looking at building a AM/Trail fork for us in the near future!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Are you running a 6 bolt front hub?


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'd be interested to see if you changed to 2.5wt damper oil how it affects things. Maybe then the HBO becomes more useful again?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gregnash said:


> Interesting note for those 29er guys still looking at this thread that are wishing for a Mattoc 29. Following Zac Smith's Instagram since it was mentioned some 10pgs back and he put something up yesterday about servicing the next round of Mattoc. I posted saying I wish they would release a 29er version to go along with my McLeod and he responded to me saying.....Stay tuned on that one. Hope that means that they are actually looking at building a AM/Trail fork for us in the near future!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I saw that as well. He had info on the IRT posted before anywhere else.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sherwin24 said:


> I'd be interested to see if you changed to 2.5wt damper oil how it affects things. Maybe then the HBO becomes more useful again?


Hang on. The stock 5wt Maxima blue oil is the same viscosity as 2.5wt Motorex red.

If you're still running the original blue oil, then you won't notice any difference unless you switch to an even thinner oil.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Hang on. The stock 5wt Maxima blue oil is the same viscosity as 2.5wt Motorex red.
> 
> If you're still running the original blue oil, then you won't notice any difference unless you switch to an even thinner oil.


I am assuming he is running Motorex 5wt. that has been stock up until 2016 ( unless I am wrong). The new stock Maxima is also 5wt. But equal to Motorex 2.5wt. So it should be thinner.

Maybe I need to quit thinking, seem to be confusing myself.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

I use the same Motorex 5wt that is used for the Dorado damper. And the same Motorex semi bath for that matter. Makes it nice to not stock different oil for each fork


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sherwin24 said:


> I am assuming he is running Motorex 5wt. that has been stock up until 2016 ( unless I am wrong). The new stock Maxima is also 5wt. But equal to Motorex 2.5wt. So it should be thinner.
> 
> Maybe I need to quit thinking, seem to be confusing myself.


There is no recent oil change in the Mattoc. My personal Mattoc was early production and it had blue maxima. I've asked manitou when they changed but I suspect it was a long time ago.

Interestingly my Dorado feels great with motorex 5wt. It had blue maxima from factory along with every other Dorado I've been inside.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Anyone know where can I get an IRT online for my mattoc?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

markymark said:


> Anyone know where can I get an IRT online for my mattoc?


Exactly. None of my local bike shops are Manitou dealers.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

ColinL said:


> Exactly. None of my local bike shops are Manitou dealers.


Try calling Manitou. There is a chance they might sell direct to you. If not, ask them what online retailers might have them.

Or, Pricepoint is a Manitou dealer. Call them and see about a special order.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Exactly. None of my local bike shops are Manitou dealers.


Does not matter. Any shop can order from Manitou. My LBS has ordered parts for me from Manitou. When I ended up getting my Mattoc, I actually had them order it. The funny thing is, the owner actually wondered why I would buy a Manitou! I actually let him ride my bike and he was amazed at how well it worked. What is wacky is he also figured out the QR system immediately, which is something I still struggle with!


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Your LBS doesn't want to go through the trouble of placing a small order direct through a company...sad but most often true. The parts are listed on BTI, once they get a hold of them they will be very easy to source either online or through a LBS.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> Your LBS doesn't want to go through the trouble of placing a small order direct through a company...sad but most often true. The parts are listed on BTI, once they get a hold of them they will be very easy to source either online or through a LBS.


Orrrrrrrrr........ looks like you could order some from Manitou and supply at least those here on this thread and have those guaranteed sales.


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

We have a few on order.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Okay guys, here's the scoop on the oil.

Manitou appears to have always used oil around the 15-16 cSt mark (40C reference temp). Years ago they were using Maxima 5wt oil which is ~16 cSt at 40C. In the early/mid 00's they switched to Motorex 5wt, but it is not the same Motorex 5wt you would buy anywhere else. It was "special" Motorex 5wt which is in reality 2.5wt and ~15 cSt.

They've been using Maxima 5wt again since approx 2008 (~16 cSt). 

So. Make sure your oil is around the 15-16 cSt mark if you want a factory feel.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks Dougal! That clarifies things up then. Much appreciated.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> We have a few on order.


good, will you ship to Australia? afaik the mattock was never imported here so online is my only hope.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

markymark said:


> good, will you ship to Australia? afaik the mattock was never imported here so online is my only hope.


After talking to Manitou tech support to find out dates that the dorado MRD kit would be available in australia they just gave me the part number and put me in touch with Benscycle.com They ordered one in for me and sent it out, I should have it in a day or so. All in all a 2 week turn around from email to manitou -> email to bens cycles -> payment and almost delivery.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

shmity said:


> After talking to Manitou tech support to find out dates that the dorado MRD kit would be available in australia they just gave me the part number and put me in touch with Benscycle.com They ordered one in for me and sent it out, I should have it in a day or so. All in all a 2 week turn around from email to manitou -> email to bens cycles -> payment and almost delivery.


thanks shmity, never heard of that shop, how much was delivery?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Are you running a 6 bolt front hub?


Yes I am... Have used the centerlock in the past but not on this bike.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

gregnash said:


> Yes I am... Have used the centerlock in the past but not on this bike.


I'm curious as to why Dougal would ask that.

I can't think of any reason why it would matter if you have centerlock or 6 bolt. ?


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

markymark said:


> thanks shmity, never heard of that shop, how much was delivery?


Nor had I until Manitou suggested I get in touch... I think postage was around 20 USD for usps international priority, could have gone with express for an extra 10USD but the slowest part of the delivery has been AusPost so go figure...


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Okay guys, here's the scoop on the oil.
> 
> Manitou appears to have always used oil around the 15-16 cSt mark (40C reference temp). Years ago they were using Maxima 5wt oil which is ~16 cSt at 40C. In the early/mid 00's they switched to Motorex 5wt, but it is not the same Motorex 5wt you would buy anywhere else. It was "special" Motorex 5wt which is in reality 2.5wt and ~15 cSt.
> 
> ...


Nice! Thanks for that Dougal. I'm assuming this applies for all their forks. I've always matched the standard motorex 5w in my abs+ forks at 22.6 cst. This helps a lot knowing the Manitou Motorex isn't that heavy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> Nice! Thanks for that Dougal. I'm assuming this applies for all their forks. I've always matched the standard motorex 5w in my abs+ forks at 22.6 cst. This helps a lot knowing the Manitou Motorex isn't that heavy.


Yep that's all of them. I also drained blue oil from my 2006 Nixon and Travis TPC+ cartridge dampers about two years ago so I'll be going to Motorex 2.5wt in those to match. Been running 5wt for a year or so.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Yes I am... Have used the centerlock in the past but not on this bike.





ColinL said:


> I'm curious as to why Dougal would ask that.
> 
> I can't think of any reason why it would matter if you have centerlock or 6 bolt. ?


Well, well well!

With a 6 bolt hub you can use three 5mm spacers with 5mm longer rotor bolts and a 15x100mm wheel on a 15x110mm fork.
With centre-lock you can't.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

@dougal so you are suggesting that the Magnum is the same thing, basically, so I could still use standard wheel with the spacer. That or they are making a Plus sized version of the Mattoc. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gregnash said:


> @dougal so you are suggesting that the Magnum is the same thing, basically, so I could still use standard wheel with the spacer. That or they are making a Plus sized version of the Mattoc.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No what he is saying is that with a couple of spacers, you can run a Magnum as a normal 29" fork. honestly, a simple and brilliant way to get a 29" Mattoc now.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> @dougal so you are suggesting that the Magnum is the same thing, basically, so I could still use standard wheel with the spacer. That or they are making a Plus sized version of the Mattoc.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





Vespasianus said:


> No what he is saying is that with a couple of spacers, you can run a Magnum as a normal 29" fork. honestly, a simple and brilliant way to get a 29" Mattoc now.


The Magnums are Mattocs with the lower legs 10mm further apart and a bit longer to give more tyre clearance.

A 27+ Magnum is also a 29" Mattoc, you just need 5mm wider caps on your front hub and a 5mm spacer (with longer bolts) behind your disc rotor.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Magnum will only go 120 with a 29. That's why I went with a Pike.

Another option that will work with CL hubs is to use a single 10mm spacer and offset dish the week. Bonus is better balance between spoke tensions.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> Magnum will only go 120 with a 29. That's why I went with a Pike.
> 
> Another option that will work with CL hubs is to use a single 10mm spacer and offset dish the week. Bonus is better balance between spoke tensions.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


How much travel do you want with a 29"? I don't know that many people running them and the bikes get enormous with big travel.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

120-160. Plenty of frames out there that need more than 120 but can see why its not on Manitou's radar. I talked to them a few months ago to confirm max travel on Magnum and he claimed nothing longer in near future.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


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## theminsta (Jan 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Well, well well!
> 
> With a 6 bolt hub you can use three 5mm spacers with 5mm longer rotor bolts and a 15x100mm wheel on a 15x110mm fork.
> With centre-lock you can't.


Or, you can put a 10mm spacer on the non-drive side and dish the wheel 5mm to the right, which you need only less than 0.8mm of spoke length to do (you're good to go if you built the wheel properly). This means you can have a dishless front wheel; a nice even triangulation of the spokes with the rim being in the center the front hub's two flanges. *Assuming the disc brake "chainline" is the same distance from the left end of the axle on Boost.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> How much travel do you want with a 29"? I don't know that many people running them and the bikes get enormous with big travel.


Personally running a RS Revy Dual Air at 140mm with a Geax Goma 2.4 in front. Would ultimately have to run the 27.5 version to run at longer travel.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have to say that I'm completely uninterested in shims and spacers, and openly against re-dishing a perfectly good wheel.

If I wanted to run a 15x110 fork I would buy a 110mm hub and new spokes, or a complete wheel.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

ColinL said:


> I have to say that I'm completely uninterested in shims and spacers, and openly against re-dishing a perfectly good wheel.
> 
> If I wanted to run a 15x110 fork I would buy a 110mm hub and new spokes, or a complete wheel.


I'm kinda in the same boat. However, difference for me is that I am planning on rebuilding my wheels with wider rims in the near future (or taking a stab at build my own new rear utilizing the Koozer 72HD) so that thought of possibly changing that to accommodate something that I am still not sure if it is a fad or not, well that is a hard decision.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Hayes posted a link to mtb-news.de on the IVA and IRT kits on Facebook today:

Manitou Mattoc und Dorado: Tuning-Kits für Luftfedern - MTB-News.de

No English version but lots of great graphs with different pressures and how it affects the spring curve.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Nice find shiny! The graphs really help sum up what is happening. Will be interesting to start hearing some reviews and feedback on pressures everyone is running.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

The Dorado IRT kit comes with some good (albiet less in depth) graphs of what its doing at different pressures and three baseline setup options(firm, medium and soft) for a range of given rider weights, so theres plenty of info directly from them to get you started at least. 

Haven't had a chance to really ride mine yet but the production quality of the IRT kits and the air pressure relief caps is superb.


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

I've got a new Mattoc just set to 150mm waiting in the garage for my 2016 Kona Process 134 Supreme frame to arrive any day now. Soo stoked! 
Hit Dirt Merchant up if you need a Mattoc, best prices I've found.











shiny said:


> Hayes posted a link to mtb-news.de on the IVA and IRT kits on Facebook today:
> 
> Manitou Mattoc und Dorado: Tuning-Kits für Luftfedern - MTB-News.de
> 
> No English version but lots of great graphs with different pressures and how it affects the spring curve.


Shiny's find translated

Manitou Mattoc and Dorado: Tuning kits for air suspension

Just IBC User Kuschi has criticized in user endurance test of Manitou Mattoc that there are no ways to change the progression of the fork, as we receive from Manitou, the information that the MRD program - short for Manitou Race Development - exactly has found a solution for this. And even more. New for the model 2016 there are optional for Manitou Mattoc and Manitou Dorado models two tuning kits: MRD Incremental Volume Adjust (MRD IVA) for adjusting the air chamber volume and MRD Infinite rate Tune (MRD IRT) for adjusting the characteristic curve in the mid range of suspension. We provide these two and other novelties from the MRD program and show the influence they will have on the characteristics of the forks.

IVA

The MRD Incremental Volume Adjust brings a volume adjustment for the Dorado DH Air suspension system of Manitou models Mattoc Pro / Expert / Comp and Dorado Pro / Expert. It allows four Spacer a reduction of the air chamber, which means the progression of the air spring increases. Thus, the forks should be better adapted to specific track conditions or preference.

Similarly, the token with Rock Shox or Volumenspacer at Fox perform additional spacers to a reduction in volume of the air chamber, whereby the progression is increased towards the end of the stroke. While an increase in the air pressure in the spring to the full travel range affects, so can be taken specifically for the reserves with punches and support in the medium to high range of suspension impact - the differences are clearly visible in the two graphs shown above. Alternatively, the system can also be used to achieve a better response with the same breakdown protection, as the following graph shows.
Here, the air pressure can be lowered in the main chamber, without affecting the breakdown protection negative. This may be particularly interesting or when a particularly fine response is desired for easy riders and drivers.

IRT

The MRD Infinite Tune rate should make it possible to influence independent of the breakdown protection, the characteristic curve in the mid range of suspension. The kit is available for Mattoc Pro / Expert and the Dorado Pro / Expert and should allow for both models of the air spring so much support in the mid-travel range that it feels like a steel spring. This is made possible by the creation of a second air chamber above the positive air chamber that can be set independently and are equipped by the different volumes on different progressions.

At a constant air pressure in the main chamber a much steeper and more linear history is to be achieved in the mid-travel range with a correspondingly improved puncture protection so with largely constant characteristic in the first third of the stroke, as the following diagram illustrates. Especially at low speeds in steep terrain and during braking is thus more suspension travel are available.

As the curve would look like compared to when you would to achieve an identical breakdown value increase the pressure in the main chamber, shown in the following diagram. Clearly visible is the influence of the main chamber on the first third of the stroke, which would lead to a poorer response.
Ie If an identical severance protection as without IRT be achieved, the system leads to a better response.

Contrast IRT and IVA

So what is exactly the difference between the air spring Dorado with IVA or IRT? Again we Manitou provides two graphs on which the combined modes of action should be recognized.

At the same pressure in the positive air chamber, the IRT causes higher overall pump curve (red), but should be the response to the same level as the other two options. Your breakdown protection corresponds to the IVA version (blue), which until the last third of the stroke progressive works as a conventional air chamber (black) and thus aims to improve the breakdown behavior.

One aims and tend to decrease at a constant breakdown protection, so I show the differences less pronounced. The IRT (red) and conventional air suspension (gray) here differ only by a better response (indicated by the lower course of the red curve in the first quarter of the spring travel), while the IVA version (blue) draws a lower curve and by the increased progression in the last third of the spring travel for identical breakdown protection comes.

So if you want influence Endprogression and would like to make a simple tuning, the IVA Incremental Volume Adjust themselves should take a closer look. Who wants to have more feedback on the other hand in the middle range of suspension without getting additional Endprogression, the IRT should look Infinite rate Tune unit more precisely with additional air chamber. Due to the design you have to decide between IVA and IRT - combine not let the two technologies. Therefore, one should decide starting from the two characteristics described in this paragraph, which better fits the options to their own requirements. Realized adjust more easily and with less experience, the tuning on the volume adjustment (IVA), while the IRT setting requires more experience and more aimed at savvy pilots and racing drivers. In a nutshell, IRT improves the response and support in the mid-travel range while the IVA increases Endprogression, but can also be used to a flatter total characteristic to realize with the same breakdown protection.
Dorado MRD Kit with MRD Trailside Relief

The Dorado MRD Kit includes Manitou MRD Trailside Relief (TSR short MRD) for Manitou Dorado Pro / Expert, making it possible to vent without tools via the small red button while driving. This is necessary if high damping loads under the oil to foam / vaporized and leads to an increase in the effective spring rate. Such a system in a similar form of the Fox 40 Float is known, in which the casting can be vented. In MRD Kit for Dorado caps are in addition to the TSR and the IRT unit and special Evil Genius contain 2bn seals.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

shmity said:


> The Dorado IRT kit comes with some good (albiet less in depth) graphs of what its doing at different pressures and three baseline setup options(firm, medium and soft) for a range of given rider weights, so theres plenty of info directly from them to get you started at least.
> 
> Haven't had a chance to really ride mine yet but the production quality of the IRT kits and the air pressure relief caps is superb.


Totally agree on the production quality of the IRT for the dorado. And the new relief top caps are so pretty I actually got a proper 6 point 36mm socket (and ground down the chamfer) for them instead of just using the 12 point I had been using.

I was mildly disappointed that the air piston on the mattoc IRT is plastic, which I noted in my installation and ride impression post, but certainly not a deal breaker.


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## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

Can anyone comment on how's the Mattoc (pro) base tune for light weight rider? I'm 135lbs and fairly aggressive on the bike, which is a V2 Spitfire. My current fork is a X-Fusion Slant. It is ok on the slow speed stuff but quickly becomes spiky when I pick up speed in the rough east coast stuff. I'm highly considering a Mattoc as it can be had for a fair price and is user serviceable.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

nightnerd said:


> Can anyone comment on how's the Mattoc (pro) base tune for light weight rider? I'm 135lbs and fairly aggressive on the bike, which is a V2 Spitfire. My current fork is a X-Fusion Slant. It is ok on the slow speed stuff but quickly becomes spiky when I pick up speed in the rough east coast stuff. I'm highly considering a Mattoc as it can be had for a fair price and is user serviceable.


I would say to not be so concerned with the base tune but with the forks overall tunability. And with the IRT now available it give you even more room to get it the way you want. You can drop the main pressure pretty low but still have the mid and bottom out support for your aggressive riding style.

Dare I say, this is much more customization possible that just the volume tokens with Fox and RS.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nightnerd said:


> Can anyone comment on how's the Mattoc (pro) base tune for light weight rider? I'm 135lbs and fairly aggressive on the bike, which is a V2 Spitfire. My current fork is a X-Fusion Slant. It is ok on the slow speed stuff but quickly becomes spiky when I pick up speed in the rough east coast stuff. I'm highly considering a Mattoc as it can be had for a fair price and is user serviceable.


I would say that it can be set up nicely for someone of that weight. You might be able to get away with 30-40 PSI in the main chamber and that would control the bottom out nicely with HBO and if you need more mid-stroke, get the IVA or IRT system. As IntenseMack1 mentioned, with LSC, HSC, HBO, and the ability to vary the air spring volume this fork might be the most highly tunable system out there.

I should also mention, this fork rewards aggressive ridding. It does not blow threw its travel but stays high and begs you to go faster and harder.

Two things I recommend when you buy the bike are the manitou tool kit, which makes working on the fork incredibly easy, and another set of brake pads. Trust me.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Man I love my MRP Stage and I have no reason to switch but you guys are giving very compelling evidence as to why I should try one at least in the name of science


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## nightnerd (Mar 5, 2007)

Thanks guys! Looks like the Mattoc will replace the Slant. Just waiting for the right deal!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bdundee said:


> Man I love my MRP Stage and I have no reason to switch but you guys are giving very compelling evidence as to why I should try one at least in the name of science


The stage sounds like a great fork. I think people look too much at only the top 2 suspension companies (Fox and Rock Shox); when in reality, there a tons of really good manufactures out there (including MRP, manitou, DVO, X-Fusion) making a better product.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> The stage sounds like a great fork. I think people look too much at only the top 2 suspension companies (Fox and Rock Shox); when in reality, there a tons of really good manufactures out there (including MRP, manitou, DVO, X-Fusion) making a better product.


Completely agree. Most of it is marketing, and getting some oem parts on bikes. You are seeing more and more of them coming stock on bikes which is good.

Had I not had time to research forks recently I would have just gone with a Pike, because it is everywhere. I had ridden them and always was not completely sold that it was the best a company could do. In this day and age you shouldn't have to send out suspension (Fox) just so it works great. It came down to the Stage and Mattoc for me, price played a role, but wasn't the end all. The Mattoc is tough to beat regardless of price. Now with the IRT nothing else offers what it can do.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I had my first ride on a Plus sized Magnum yesterday. Ironically a 1995 Magnum was my first ever Manitou fork.

This was an Magnum on a Specialized plus sized hardtail. It had ABS+ compression damping and MARS air spring. So for those curious as to the Mattoc equivalent, it certainly has all the parts to exist.


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

I got my Mattoc set up at 150mm on my new 2016 Kona Process 134. Soo far I have 30 miles on it and roughly 5000 ft of descending( Colorado Front Range). I am 190 lbs fully geared up running 62psi(20% sag), 1 click from open on Low speed, Hi speed, and HBO. 4 clicks from open on the rebound. I am blown away soo far. This fork rides high in its travel for normal pedaling, has good small bump perfomance and soo plush on chunky and fast downhills. The biggest drop I've hit soo far is 4ft and I am getting full travel, measured with a caliper, about 10mm short of the crown. I'll be taking it up to the high country this weekend for a 4-6 hour ride above 10,000 ft. Soo stoked!!

Low Light at Red Rocks Park. I stripped off the larger Manitou stickers and moved the smaller Mattoc stickers to the outside of the fork legs.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mountaingoatepics said:


> I got my Mattoc set up at 150mm on my new 2016 Kona Process 134. Soo far I have 30 miles on it and roughly 5000 ft of descending( Colorado Front Range). I am 190 lbs fully geared up running 62psi(20% sag), 1 click from open on Low speed, Hi speed, and HBO. 4 clicks from open on the rebound. I am blown away soo far. This fork rides high in its travel for normal pedaling, has good small bump perfomance and soo plush on chunky and fast downhills. The biggest drop I've hit soo far is 4ft and I am getting full travel, measured with a caliper, about 10mm short of the crown. I'll be taking it up to the high country this weekend for a 4-6 hour ride above 10,000 ft. Soo stoked!!
> 
> Low Light at Red Rocks Park. I stripped off the larger Manitou stickers and moved the smaller Mattoc stickers to the outside of the fork legs.
> 
> View attachment 1022563


Nice, love the pic. Give the travel some time. It takes a while for this fork to break in and when it does, the travel will come.


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice, love the pic. Give the travel some time. It takes a while for this fork to break in and when it does, the travel will come.


I think you misunderstood. I have the fork set at 150mm and I am getting 150mm of travel. These forks have about 10mm of extra stanchion between full travel and the crown itself.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mountaingoatepics said:


> I think you misunderstood. I have the fork set at 150mm and I am getting 150mm of travel. These forks have about 10mm of extra stanchion between full travel and the crown itself.


OK, I see. I think I am having a senior moment!


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Just put my brand new mattoc expert on my bike, have taken it for about an hours ride and am only getting 120mm travel out of it. 

Even with all the air out of the fork and pressing down hard I can still only get 120mm of travel. Have been looking through this massive thread looking for answers but can't find seem to find any. Could it be the poppet valve inside not equalising air pressures between the air springs?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

Could be but also could be over filled damper. When you attach the pump, push the fork up and down, what does it feel like?


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

markymark said:


> Just put my brand new mattoc expert on my bike, have taken it for about an hours ride and am only getting 120mm travel out of it.
> 
> Even with all the air out of the fork and pressing down hard I can still only get 120mm of travel. Have been looking through this massive thread looking for answers but can't find seem to find any. Could it be the poppet valve inside not equalising air pressures between the air springs?


Maybe damper side is overfilled with oil. Its easy to check. Just remove knobs and unscrew top cap.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

markymark said:


> Just put my brand new mattoc expert on my bike, have taken it for about an hours ride and am only getting 120mm travel out of it.
> 
> Even with all the air out of the fork and pressing down hard I can still only get 120mm of travel. Have been looking through this massive thread looking for answers but can't find seem to find any. Could it be the poppet valve inside not equalising air pressures between the air springs?


As Robo says, its much more likely the oil in the damper. I wasn't quite getting full travel, but it was much more than 120. I pulled a little oil and it got to full travel.

Pulling the damper is quite easy, as Robo says, but you don't want to pull a ton of oil out at the beginning. Start slow to ensure you don't remove too much.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I agree that this is most likely too much oil in the damper. Check out this site:
https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/

or the Manitou site:






Make sure you use the 80mm setting for the Expert.

I would also say, that I would contact your local manitou dealer and tell them what is happening. This is an easy fix but I firmly believe that Manitou should address this as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes it's oil height. The seller should be checking the oil heights and volumes in all new forks before sending them out.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Thanks very much for all the replies, I'll check the oil level and see how that goes. :thumbsup:


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm considering replacing my current Revelation fork, with most likely a Mattoc, but not sure if it's worth the cost difference to get the Pro over Expert.
Based on Manitou specs, the Pro is just over 100g lighter, but other than rebound TPC cartridge in the Pro and TPC in-leg in the Expert, the specs look almost identical. Are there any functional/performance differences?


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

Well, thank you all so much for the advice and links, I just took the damper out and checked the oil level, it was:

70mm from the top to oil, and I was getting 120mm max travel with no air in the fork.

Sucked out the oil with a syringe till I got to 80mm from the top. Probably about 5ml. Put it back together and...

Now am getting 150mm travel exactly.

Happy days! 

For the record this is a 2014 expert, brand new out of the box.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

markymark said:


> Well, thank you all so much for the advice and links, I just took the damper out and checked the oil level, it was:
> 
> 70mm from the top to oil, and I was getting 120mm max travel with no air in the fork.
> 
> ...


Great to hear. I have only serviced one Expert and it was also 5cc over-full. Because the Expert uses a bigger damper shaft it is even more sensitive to the correct oil level than the Pro.

Honestly it's the job of the fork seller to check oil levels are correct before sending them out the door, but very few of them do. A car dealer would never sell a new car without checking fluid levels.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

I just did that same fork replacement. The cost was not an issue for me, the pro was on sale at the moment. The pro comes in red which matches my Intense Tracer 2 in orange perfect. Other than that, very satisfied! I suppose other guys here can comment on the specs and differences...


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

So just to be sure I got the procedure to check the damper oil height straight:

- Unscrew the compression and HBO knobs as explained in the video. (keeping the HSC and HBO together).
- Remove the MC2 assembly cap.
- Pull out the damper unit.
- Check oil levels (77mm for the pro, 80mm for the expert)
- And if necessary remove oil with a syringe to the appropriate level 
- Reassemble

Anything I forgot?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

The only thing I would add is that before you check to oil, make sure the legs are fully extended. But otherwise, everything else sounds good.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, so indeed there was too much oil in the damper. Removed about 4-6ml till it was 80mm. 

Now have to check why the HS knob is jamming.

EDIT: Ok removed the HS and HBO assembly again and reinstalled it like you suggested earlier. Works again now, thanks.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So, I was at Pep Boys and saw some Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer. They have a nice demo were the show how "clingy" the oil was with the Oil Stabilizer. So I ended up buying some thinking that the clingy part would make it perfect for a bath oil. Good news is that fork was in great shape after my last bath oil change, with all the bath oil where it should be and with no oil in the negative chamber. The bad news is that this "clingy" oil is just really thick - like a thicker viscosity. And as a bath oil, it made the fork actually feel a little constipated. Really surprised at how much of a impact (on feel) the bath oil would have.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> So, I was at Pep Boys and saw some Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer. They have a nice demo were the show how "clingy" the oil was with the Oil Stabilizer. So I ended up buying some thinking that the clingy part would make it perfect for a bath oil. Good news is that fork was in great shape after my last bath oil change, with all the bath oil where it should be and with no oil in the negative chamber. The bad news is that this "clingy" oil is just really thick - like a thicker viscosity. And as a bath oil, it made the fork actually feel a little constipated. Really surprised at how much of a impact (on feel) the bath oil would have.


I use it in my forks, but not straight. I use a mix with Mobil one synthetic at a 5/1 ratio and it works great. It's not ment to be used straight for any purpose. Thin it out significantly and see what you think then.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I use it in my forks, but not straight. I use a mix with Mobil one synthetic at a 5/1 ratio and it works great. It's not ment to be used straight for any purpose. Thin it out significantly and see what you think then.


Thanks. Actually for the main part, I used it at a 4:1 ratio but I decided to add some straight in the space between the oil seal and the dust seal. I think that is part of my problem. I will thin it out some more and see how it feels.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Thanks. Actually for the main part, I used it at a 4:1 ratio but I decided to add some straight in the space between the oil seal and the dust seal. I think that is part of my problem. I will thin it out some more and see how it feels.


I tried soaking foam rings for my pike in straight Stabilizer once and it it felt awful.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I tried soaking foam rings for my pike in straight Stabilizer once and it it felt awful.


Yes, I think it is way too thick and is what is causing me problems.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Okay guys, here's the scoop on the oil.
> 
> Manitou appears to have always used oil around the 15-16 cSt mark (40C reference temp). Years ago they were using Maxima 5wt oil which is ~16 cSt at 40C. In the early/mid 00's they switched to Motorex 5wt, but it is not the same Motorex 5wt you would buy anywhere else. It was "special" Motorex 5wt which is in reality 2.5wt and ~15 cSt.
> 
> ...


Dougal, are you positive on that? In the Mattoc service guide video you can clearly see they pour out bluish oil (Maxima Fork oil 5W?), but pour in Motorex 5W...I know this video is not a good reference point (and there are other inconsistencies in it like the amount of bath oil), but still....it's confusing. If they replace Maxima 5W with Motorex 5W it's 16 vs 22 cSt...


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## JDM_DSM (Mar 8, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> So, I was at Pep Boys and saw some Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer. They have a nice demo were the show how "clingy" the oil was with the Oil Stabilizer. So I ended up buying some thinking that the clingy part would make it perfect for a bath oil. Good news is that fork was in great shape after my last bath oil change, with all the bath oil where it should be and with no oil in the negative chamber. The bad news is that this "clingy" oil is just really thick - like a thicker viscosity. And as a bath oil, it made the fork actually feel a little constipated. Really surprised at how much of a impact (on feel) the bath oil would have.


Yeah, it doesn't seem like it would make much difference, but the semi-bath oil has a pretty noticeable effect on ride quality. 
0wt synthetic motor oil is where it's at, as recommended to me by a former Manitou tech.
Not so sure about the Lucas, just because something's clingy doesn't mean it's doing any lubricating. I know it's generally regarded as a scam for automotive purposes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

imbecile said:


> Dougal, are you positive on that? In the Mattoc service guide video you can clearly see they pour out bluish oil (Maxima Fork oil 5W?), but pour in Motorex 5W...I know this video is not a good reference point (and there are other inconsistencies in it like the amount of bath oil), but still....it's confusing. If they replace Maxima 5W with Motorex 5W it's 16 vs 22 cSt...


Yep 100% positive. I have oil samples here from Manitou forks and shocks going back almost 15 years. 
Our oil viscosity drain tests are showing they're all the same.

The Motorex 5wt which Manitou have is/was a special shipment which matches the Maxima 5wt. It's equal to the 2.5wt Motorex you'll buy anywhere else.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

Thanks!


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Removing the the 5ml freed up the fork and now goes from 137mm to almost the full 160mm. I pushed the O-ring down a few times during the last ride but was always at full travel when I rechecked. Yet I didn't experience any harsh bottoming, so HBO seems to work. Didn't expect it to make that much difference but obviously on steep/rough terrain not having the fork bottoming hard at 137mm does allow quite a bit more control.

At 200LBS with gear the 57 PSI might be a bit on the low side and fork does still feel a bit divy. But at 60PSI and with all the knobs fully open small bumb compliance wasn't great even after more than 50 riding hours. I will ride some more to see if it free's up some more, else I possible have too look into the oil migration thing as well.

All in all fork starts to ride better and better.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CS645 said:


> Removing the the 5ml freed up the fork and now goes from 137mm to almost the full 160mm. I pushed the O-ring down a few times during the last ride but was always at full travel when I rechecked. Yet I didn't experience any harsh bottoming, so HBO seems to work. Didn't expect it to make that much difference but obviously on steep/rough terrain not having the fork bottoming hard at 137mm does allow quite a bit more control.
> 
> At 200LBS with gear the 57 PSI might be a bit on the low side and fork does still feel a bit divy. But at 60PSI and with all the knobs fully open small bumb compliance wasn't great even after more than 50 riding hours. I will ride some more to see if it free's up some more, else I possible have too look into the oil migration thing as well.
> 
> All in all fork starts to ride better and better.


It is amazing how a small amount of oil can alter the forks performance. Also, the fork is very sensitive to air pressure and a few PSI does make a difference. I have had the best luck with the fork with 7 mL of Mobil 1 on each side as bath oil and 2 mL of Mobil 1 on top of the piston. I actually used a very similar 60 psi for my 205 lbs and used 1-2 clicks of HBO, 2 clicks of HSC and 2-3 clicks of LSC . With this setting I routinely get 155-158 mm of travel on almost every ride and will hit 160 if I make a mistake. Actually, the only other place I would get full travel was on one small section after a quick G-out, I would hit this root ledge that would slam the fork through all its travel - in a way that I could feel it. What helped here was not the HBO but rather a one extra click of LSC - which made the section feel smooth as butter.

For our dive issue, you may want to look at the IVA system, from manitou's web-site, they mention: " If your fork is diving too far adjust your IVA. If your fork is diving too fast adjust your compression damping."


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yep 100% positive. I have oil samples here from Manitou forks and shocks going back almost 15 years.
> Our oil viscosity drain tests are showing they're all the same.
> 
> The Motorex 5wt which Manitou have is/was a special shipment which matches the Maxima 5wt. It's equal to the 2.5wt Motorex you'll buy anywhere else.


which suspension oil would you recommend for the damping?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> which suspension oil would you recommend for the damping?


I think the oil used is motorex 5 wt.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> I think the oil used is motorex 5 wt.


Motorex 2.5 wt, it has the right cSt according to what Dougal wrote, and the whole story about it.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

I need to try it (the motorex 2.5 WT). Now I'm using Rock Shox 5 WT and that it not sooooo good.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

That would be this than?: [ATTACH=CONFIG]1028715._xfImport[/ATTACH]

I bought the 5W earlier, since I though that was what I needed to have. Oh well, can always use it to mix them up.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> which suspension oil would you recommend for the damping?


I recommend both the maxima 5wt and Motorex 2.5wt. These are 16 and 15 cSt respectively at 40C.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/

Not sure if this is accurate, but Motorex 2.5wt is indeed listed as 15.2 cst. Motorex 5w as 21.8cst! Maxima 5wt as 15.9 cst.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/
> 
> Not sure if this is accurate, but Motorex 2.5wt is indeed listed as 15.2 cst. Motorex 5w as 21.8cst! Maxima 5wt as 15.9 cst.


Official information from Motorex to me:
2.5wt is 15.1 cSt.
5wt is 22.6 cSt
7.5wt is 35.9 cSt
10wt is 52.5 cSt
15wt is 69.8 cSt

All at 40C.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Motorex 2.5 wt, it has the right cSt according to what Dougal wrote, and the whole story about it.


Yes, you are right. Sorry about that.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Can someone tell me why it is mandatory to change the HBO mother-part when modifying for 650b wheels. That's because I'm don't own the needed part and will change to 650b. Thanks !


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*Mattoc HBO conversion parts*



Samos said:


> Can someone tell me why it is mandatory to change the HBO mother-part when modifying for 650b wheels. That's because I'm don't own the needed part and will change to 650b. Thanks !


Because otherwise the HBO won't be engaged propperly for bottom out.

The HBO part for 650b is 10mm longer than the 26in part to compensate for this and make sure that the HBO works correctly at the bottomout of 650b wheels @ 160mm travel.

Scar
P.S. speak to manitou support directly. They will normally send you out the damper conversion kit for free. (it was included in the box from relatively early models.) I got mine before they did too, and got it fine.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks scar4me.

It means the HBO will not function properly. Would it be otherwise a problem ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Samos said:


> Thanks scar4me.
> 
> It means the HBO will not function properly. Would it be otherwise a problem ?
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


It also means bottom out is handled entirely by the rubber bumper on the spring side.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

For those that have had their Mattocs for a while now (say a year +), is anyone getting any crown creaking?

My front end has developed some good creaking recently. I just disassembled the headset and cleaned then greased all the metal to metal surfaces and that didn't change anything. 

I was hoping to avoid crown creaking with this fork.


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## Dased (May 29, 2004)

I have had mine for 17 months and have also had a creak develop... Will be sending them off for warranty - swapping to my xfusion vengeance the creak disappears.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> For those that have had their Mattocs for a while now (say a year +), is anyone getting any crown creaking?
> 
> My front end has developed some good creaking recently. I just disassembled the headset and cleaned then greased all the metal to metal surfaces and that didn't change anything.
> 
> I was hoping to avoid crown creaking with this fork.


Had mine for 1/2 year and not a peep. The one thing that Manitou fork never seemed to have was crown creak, so this is odd. Any way you could transfer the fork to another bike and see if it does the same thing?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

And Manitou was fine taking it back for the creaking issue? For some reason I was under the impression that most fork manufactures didn't really care to do much for creaking crowns.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

IntenseMack10 said:


> For those that have had their Mattocs for a while now (say a year +), is anyone getting any crown creaking?
> 
> My front end has developed some good creaking recently. I just disassembled the headset and cleaned then greased all the metal to metal surfaces and that didn't change anything.
> 
> I was hoping to avoid crown creaking with this fork.


Mine did the same thing after 7 months of riding. I thought it was the headset, but if you turn the handlebars with the wheel/tire between your legs, its the crown/steer junction that pops/creeks. I havent contacted Manitou/Hayes cause I dont want to end my riding season yet.

My Manitou Minute Pro has never developed a creek, but its not ridden as hard either. I could swap to it, but its at 140mm and the Mattoc was at 160 while being a true AM fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The way to know if it's the crown is to remove it from the bike and test it. 

Basically clamp the steerer and try to make it creak.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Anyone running the IRT with some feedback? I really like the feel of this fork, wasn't sure about the linear feeling at first, but it is so smooth and has enough mid support that I can't really say anything bad about it. 

Changes to HSC/LSC are subtle, but there. I think they nailed such a good damper that works so well it doesn't need a lot of adjustment. Almost every other fork I have had, changed were much more noticeable, to the point that the usable range was narrower that what the fork had. I would rather have a well dialed fork with usable adjustments, than one that too far one way makes it harsh, too soft, etc.

That said, I do get a bit of brake dive, but not enough to throw in an IRT if it affects the feel much. Primarily concerned if it gives better support without spiking, or losing too much of it's linear feel, which I have grown to like. Does a change of just 5-10 psi in the upper chamber give a different feel, or are you finding it needs to be a much bigger difference in pressure to have an affect? The HBO works so well, that I am not looking for any more bottom out support, just a bit in the mid.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

sherwin24 said:


> Anyone running the IRT with some feedback? I really like the feel of this fork, wasn't sure about the linear feeling at first, but it is so smooth and has enough mid support that I can't really say anything bad about it.
> 
> Changes to HSC/LSC are subtle, but there. I think they nailed such a good damper that works so well it doesn't need a lot of adjustment. Almost every other fork I have had, changed were much more noticeable, to the point that the usable range was narrower that what the fork had. I would rather have a well dialed fork with usable adjustments, than one that too far one way makes it harsh, too soft, etc.
> 
> That said, I do get a bit of brake dive, but not enough to throw in an IRT if it affects the feel much. Primarily concerned if it gives better support without spiking, or losing too much of it's linear feel, which I have grown to like. Does a change of just 5-10 psi in the upper chamber give a different feel, or are you finding it needs to be a much bigger difference in pressure to have an affect? The HBO works so well, that I am not looking for any more bottom out support, just a bit in the mid.


Page 23 has some info on the IRT. Check out this post specifically:

Manitou Mattoc - Page 45- Mtbr.com

I am interested in the IRT system as well. Think it could give a firmer mid-stroke but will impact bottom out.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm really interested in trying out IRT as it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Been struggling to get enough small bump sensitivity and still have midstroke support which to be fair, I like a lot of. Here's my settings. 160lbs naked, 160mm pro. Psi 85-90, lsc 1-2 out from closed, HSC 2-3 out from fully open, HBO 2 from closed, lsr 4 from open. Any suggestions? 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Yeah, I was gonna say to check out my impressions. 

It does help with mid support. Probably the thing I noticed most. It does effect bottom out, but just a little. If you figure, even when the air piston on the IRT is "bottomed" at full travel just the fact that the piston and piston shaft are now taking up volume in the positive air spring means that the air spring has less volume and will be more progressive.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

croakies said:


> I'm really interested in trying out IRT as it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Been struggling to get enough small bump sensitivity and still have midstroke support which to be fair, I like a lot of. Here's my settings. 160lbs naked, 160mm pro. Psi 85-90, lsc 1-2 out from closed, HSC 2-3 out from fully open, HBO 2 from closed, lsr 4 from open. Any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Wow, I am close to 200lbs and I am using closer to 58-60 PSI, with 2 clicks of LSC, 2 clicks of HSC, 2 clicks of HBO and 3 clicks of rebound. If the IRT would allow you to drop the main pressure, you could get that small bump sensitivity and the mid-stroke you are looking for.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

croakies said:


> I'm really interested in trying out IRT as it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Been struggling to get enough small bump sensitivity and still have midstroke support which to be fair, I like a lot of. Here's my settings. 160lbs naked, 160mm pro. Psi 85-90, lsc 1-2 out from closed, HSC 2-3 out from fully open, HBO 2 from closed, lsr 4 from open. Any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


As Vespasianus is hinting at, I think your pressure is way too high. I fluctuate between 150-160 and before installing the IRT I was at just a shade over 50 psi (hard to tell exactly with an analog pump). I run 0 HBO, 1 click lsc and 0 hsc. And 4 clicks rebound (I think).

The air pressure guide on the side of the fork leg is a really good base line starting spot. Or manitou has a good reference sheet for set up on the mattoc with different riding styles taken into account on top of rider weights.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks for the write up IntenseMack! Not sure how I missed it. Sounds like it is worth giving a shot.

I have to agree croakies, that pressure is high. I weigh @210 all geared and think I am right around 76psi with the fork at 150mm. 2-3 clicks of LSC, 3-4 HSC, and I believe 5 on rebound.

Here is the setup guide IntenseMack mentioned http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/46-31067_Mattoc_Set-up_Guide.pdf


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

sherwin24 said:


> Thanks for the write up IntenseMack! Not sure how I missed it. Sounds like it is worth giving a shot.
> 
> I have to agree croakies, that pressure is high. I weigh @210 all geared and think I am right around 76psi with the fork at 150mm. 2-3 clicks of LSC, 3-4 HSC, and I believe 5 on rebound.
> 
> Here is the setup guide IntenseMack mentioned http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/46-31067_Mattoc_Set-up_Guide.pdf


Yeah man!

Basically, I can sum it up this way: the cost of the IRT is pretty low relative to many other parts we spend tons of cash on (just think of how much money we'll spend to save a few grams) and the install is exceedingly simple. So, there's basically no reason not to at least give it a try.

If you don't feel it does you any benefit you can throw it up on PB or eBay or sell to one of the other guys here and make some of your money back.

But, it seems to me, that varying the pressure in the now 2 chambers you can change the feel of the fork in so many different ways that there are a ton of tuning options for you to spend a lot of time experimenting (hence the 'infinite' in IRT), so if it feels off, keep varying pressures.

This puts one in the HORRIBLE position of NEEDING to just spend more time on the trails to do some scientific testing!!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> As Vespasianus is hinting at, I think your pressure is way too high. I fluctuate between 150-160 and before installing the IRT I was at just a shade over 50 psi (hard to tell exactly with an analog pump). I run 0 HBO, 1 click lsc and 0 hsc. And 4 clicks rebound (I think).
> 
> The air pressure guide on the side of the fork leg is a really good base line starting spot. Or manitou has a good reference sheet for set up on the mattoc with different riding styles taken into account on top of rider weights.


Or it could be simply that Croakies is just riding harder and hitting bigger things than me! He may have to run those pressures to get the feel he wants. If that is the case, I think the IRT system would be perfect for him.

I agree, that it is a pretty nice option to have that really can give almost an infinite tuning option to the fork.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm going to experiment droping down to 80 and cranking up the HSC a bit but I will say at current settings I use full travel every other ride and have fantastic control/composure/traction when charging hard.

Definitely sounds like IRT would let me tune it to get a bit more compliance off the top which is currently beating my hands up a little. Will probably pick it up come spring. I think I will also need to get a debonair can for the rear as well to keep it balanced.

Another note is that I am using Push seals on the fork with Pike splash oil on the damper side and fox gold air side which is working very well. Very little breakaway force. 

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> I'm going to experiment droping down to 80 and cranking up the HSC a bit but I will say at current settings I use full travel every other ride and have fantastic control/composure/traction when charging hard.
> 
> Definitely sounds like IRT would let me tune it to get a bit more compliance off the top which is currently beating my hands up a little. Will probably pick it up come spring. I think I will also need to get a debonair can for the rear as well to keep it balanced.
> 
> ...


Do Push make seals specially for the Mattoc or have you removed the lower oil seals to run foam rings and Fox 34 seals? I had virtually no stiction in my Mattoc from new.

Why are you running two different bath oils? They have the same job to do in each side.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> Or it could be simply that Croakies is just riding harder and hitting bigger things than me! He may have to run those pressures to get the feel he wants. If that is the case, I think the IRT system would be perfect for him.
> 
> I agree, that it is a pretty nice option to have that really can give almost an infinite tuning option to the fork.


It may be this. My kid is running his at 55 psi at 150mm travel and uses all the travel, but he rides his trail bike like a downhill bike. On his downhill bike I had him on the next coil weight on his fork and he still bottomed it.

By the same token I rode around on one of the DVO sponsored guys diamond and it was set up way to stiff for me and I am 235 pounds and he was about 160. How aggressive a person rides makes a huge difference in setup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

croakies said:


> I'm going to experiment droping down to 80 and cranking up the HSC a bit but I will say at current settings I use full travel every other ride and have fantastic control/composure/traction when charging hard.
> 
> Definitely sounds like IRT would let me tune it to get a bit more compliance off the top which is currently beating my hands up a little. Will probably pick it up come spring. I think I will also need to get a debonair can for the rear as well to keep it balanced.
> 
> ...


Actually, the IRT sound perfect for you. If you look at this site:

https://www.mtb-news.de/news/2015/10/08/manitou-mattoc-und-dorado-tuning-kits-fuer-luftfedern/

You can get much better mid-stroke and bottom out with lower pressures.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, the IRT sound perfect for you. If you look at this site:
> 
> https://www.mtb-news.de/news/2015/10/08/manitou-mattoc-und-dorado-tuning-kits-fuer-luftfedern/
> 
> You can get much better mid-stroke and bottom out with lower pressures.


The extensive graphs with the good explanations for each graph is really cool. Makes me wish I could read the text of the article. Good find though!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> The extensive graphs with the good explanations for each graph is really cool. Makes me wish I could read the text of the article. Good find though!


Google translate helps but really, the graphs do most of the talking. I wonder what the Mattoc sales are like in Europe versus North America.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Do Push make seals specially for the Mattoc or have you removed the lower oil seals to run foam rings and Fox 34 seals? I had virtually no stiction in my Mattoc from new.
> 
> Why are you running two different bath oils? They have the same job to do in each side.


I'm using push's "fox" version with no issues and yes I removed the oil seal. Agreed that there were no stiction issues with the stock seals, bought the fork used and wanted to change the seals and try something new haha. I will say the stock seals seem to do a better job of keeping oil in and dirt out then the push seals. Not enough for me to be concerned but would definitely not be good if you are looking for long service intervals.

Was originally using fox gold on both sides but I'm convinced the damper side ingested it and caused hydrolock, multiple times. Pike oil does not seem to have the same problem and is what I had on hand.

Did a few rides and 80psi and my hands are a lot happier! and still getting good support. Looking forward to getting my hands on IRT.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> I'm using push's "fox" version with no issues and yes I removed the oil seal. Agreed that there were no stiction issues with the stock seals, bought the fork used and wanted to change the seals and try something new haha. I will say the stock seals seem to do a better job of keeping oil in and dirt out then the push seals. Not enough for me to be concerned but would definitely not be good if you are looking for long service intervals.
> 
> Was originally using fox gold on both sides but I'm convinced the damper side ingested it and caused hydrolock, multiple times. Pike oil does not seem to have the same problem and is what I had on hand.
> 
> Did a few rides and 80psi and my hands are a lot happier! and still getting good support. Looking forward to getting my hands on IRT.


Interesting feedback, thanks. So the Pike oil you're using the 0w30 Maxima? How slippery are you finding it? It's one I haven't yet tested.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Interesting feedback, thanks. So the Pike oil you're using the 0w30 Maxima? How slippery are you finding it? It's one I haven't yet tested.


Hard for me to quantitatively say it's better vs others as all the oils I've used on the mattoc have been of "good" quality (motorex, fox gold, and the rockshox 0w-30), what I can say is that my mattoc currently has minimal breakaway friction and it stays that way throughout the ride which is all I can ask for really. Not sure on actual CST but it's a fairly thick oil, pretty comparable to the motorex just by seeing it pour. Does not have the crazy tackiness of the fox gold.

Wondering if maxima did a custom formula for rockshox or if it's a relabel.


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## Syncro (Apr 20, 2014)

Ok, I read through this thread, but I'm a suspension neophyte. I have a Mattoc build date of 6/16/2014. My shop is adjusting the travel to 140mm. While they are into the fork, I thought I'd have them address some of the issues people seem to be having with the fork--preventative maintenance. Is this a good summary of what to tell them to check and do?

1. Check the poppet valve and set it at 1.3mm protrusion 

2. Drain the 7cc of semi bath oil in the air spring. Replace with some suspension grease on the seals (M-prep?) and then add 3mm of Semi-Bath to the top of the piston. This will prevent oil migration into the negative air chamber and lost of travel.

3. Check oil level in the damper. Confirm that the oil level is set a 80mm (I have an Expert).

Also, when I called Hayes they said to use Motorex 5W oil??? I thought that the cst of this oil was not comparable to what came in the fork from the factory. What oil should I tell my bike shop (in the US) to use?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Just a heads up for everyone, the air piston and seal have been updated to solve the air and oil migration issues and manitou usa has them in stock for warranty claims. Email them and they will get one out to you.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Syncro said:


> Ok, I read through this thread, but I'm a suspension neophyte. I have a Mattoc build date of 6/16/2014. My shop is adjusting the travel to 140mm. While they are into the fork, I thought I'd have them address some of the issues people seem to be having with the fork--preventative maintenance. Is this a good summary of what to tell them to check and do?
> 
> 1. Check the poppet valve and set it at 1.3mm protrusion
> 
> ...


Manitou had a special batch of Motorex made up, you can use Motorex 2.5wt or Maxima 5wt which has the same CST.

I don't use oil on top of the air spring, although as posted above there looks to be a new seal available to stop migration so might worth seeing if you can change this while the fork is apart.

Otherwise everything you mention is spot on!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Syncro said:


> Ok, I read through this thread, but I'm a suspension neophyte. I have a Mattoc build date of 6/16/2014. My shop is adjusting the travel to 140mm. While they are into the fork, I thought I'd have them address some of the issues people seem to be having with the fork--preventative maintenance. Is this a good summary of what to tell them to check and do?
> 
> 1. Check the poppet valve and set it at 1.3mm protrusion
> 
> ...


Shiny has it correct with the oil. Motorex 5wt from Manitou is a special batch which is the same as Motorex 2.5wt from everywhere else.

Use Slickoleum (slick honey) on the air piston. No oil.

The important thing with the poppet valve is that it works with your pump. Different pumps may need different settings but 1.3mm is the best I've found.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> Just a heads up for everyone, the air piston and seal have been updated to solve the air and oil migration issues and manitou usa has them in stock for warranty claims. Email them and they will get one out to you.


Just curious, did you reach out to them with this problem? Did they need anything from you?
Thanks for posting this!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Aresab said:


> Just curious, did you reach out to them with this problem? Did they need anything from you?
> Thanks for posting this!


Actually I didnt. I'm in contact everyonce in a while with Ed Kwaterski, the chief engineer. I'm selling my pike to get a Mattoc and we were talking about the updates for the newest version. He actually told me to come on here and tell everyone that they have a bunch of replacement pistons in stock, and let people who are having issues know they can get them. Great group running stuff over there.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

That's cool, I've spoken to Erik several times about my Manitou forks and he was always great. I have 2 Mattocs @ 160 as well as I Pike RCT3. I like the Mattocs better and would love to get the migrating oil resolved. I'll reach out to them tomorrow. Did Ed say to just send an email to the general tech support mailbox or another address. Really appreciate this helpful info!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Regular Techsupport email should be fine.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Actually I didnt. I'm in contact everyonce in a while with Ed Kwaterski, the chief engineer. I'm selling my pike to get a Mattoc and we were talking about the updates for the newest version. He actually told me to come on here and tell everyone that they have a bunch of replacement pistons in stock, and let people who are having issues know they can get them. Great group running stuff over there.


That is great news. I love my Mattoc and this will go a long way to reducing down time. Anybody know how difficult it is to change to piston head? Is it just a simple un-bolt and re-bolt?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have experienced the migration twice severely enough to seriously impact the fork's performance. I'll be emailing them this weekend. Great info!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I believe the new seals are mostly supposed to stop air transfer that causes it to get sucked down from premature seal wear. This will also help with oil migration, but using just grease is the best solution for this problem.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

How can we identify the new piston? I had my Mattoc serviced under warranty (at Manitou Germany) about 1 month ago, I got new CSU and maybe something else, maybe the new piston, but I don't know. Since service, everything works fine, fork does not lose travel during ride. But I haven't check the oil migration.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

RoboS said:


> How can we identify the new piston? I had my Mattoc serviced under warranty (at Manitou Germany) about 1 month ago, I got new CSU and maybe something else, maybe the new piston, but I don't know. Since service, everything works fine, fork does not lose travel during ride. But I haven't check the oil migration.


If you are not having an issue, I wouldn't worry about it. If you start to have issues where you need to reset the air chambers before every few rides, then it's time to ask about it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the old seals, the new seals just work a little better and have a longer service life. If people are having issues, contact them. If no issues are present, just keep riding and be happy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The new pistons haven't shipped worldwide yet. They weren't available a month ago.

Replacing a piston is quite easy, once you have the air shaft out, they just unscrew. But it is best done with 10mm shaft clamps.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> If you are not having an issue, I wouldn't worry about it. If you start to have issues where you need to reset the air chambers before every few rides, then it's time to ask about it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the old seals, the new seals just work a little better and have a longer service life. If people are having issues, contact them. If no issues are present, just keep riding and be happy.


When I purchased the fork it didn't have any issues, but they developed over time. Probably my fork fix is temporary and I had only 3 rides on it since service. I'm just trying to be prepared


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

New pistons look to replace the quad ring with a second glide ring. No oil on top anymore.

Instructions for installation sent to me:
(higher quality version when I can get to a computer)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> New pistons look to replace the quad ring with a second glide ring. No oil on top anymore.
> 
> Instructions for installation sent to me:
> (higher quality version when I can get to a computer)
> ...


Interesting. Is it any better than what we have now? I am using just grease on the piston and it seems fine. I get full travel and the fork feels fine. I guess a glide ring would actually have less friction than a quad ring, no?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Should have less friction and a longer seal life. Less friction means grease only should function better as the lubrication as well. Oil will blow right by the seals, so that's why it's no longer called for. In theory, it should be an improvement in small bump sensitivity and solve the air migration issue from premature seal wear. No more resetting the spring every few rides. 

We will see once a few of us get it installed. My pike is gone and my Mattoc and new piston are on the way. Hopefully the weather holds out for a while longer.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Should have less friction and a longer seal life. Less friction means grease only should function better as the lubrication as well. Oil will blow right by the seals, so that's why it's no longer called for. In theory, it should be an improvement in small bump sensitivity and solve the air migration issue from premature seal wear. No more resetting the spring every few rides.
> 
> We will see once a few of us get it installed. My pike is gone and my Mattoc and new piston are on the way. Hopefully the weather holds out for a while longer.


Nice! I was thinking that it would help with sensitivity as well. You have given up the pike and are moving to the Mattoc? Have you ridden a Mattoc yet?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Pdf of the piston replacement procedure

View attachment Mattoc Air Piston Replacment.pdf


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice! I was thinking that it would help with sensitivity as well. You have given up the pike and are moving to the Mattoc? Have you ridden a Mattoc yet?


Haven't had a chance to ride a mattoc yet, but am known as a manitou honk. I have a McLeod I have been using on and off for most the summer and figured it was time to get a mattoc to match. My pike had 3 warranty claims in the last few months and I'm just sick of dealing with it. They sent me a full 2016 replacement and I just sold it without installing it(figured highest resale value with uncut steerer)

I'm pretty pumped to get it.


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## imbecile (Mar 14, 2007)

I'm pretty sure the quad ring is still there in between, there has to be a seal and glide rings don't have such properties. This double glide ring arrangement would (I guess) restrict radial play in the piston and probably mitigate any air/oil migration observed with the previous design.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

imbecile said:


> I'm pretty sure the quad ring is still there in between, there has to be a seal and glide rings don't have such properties. This double glide ring arrangement would (I guess) restrict radial play in the piston and probably mitigate any air/oil migration observed with the previous design.


Click on the pdf. A few of us will have them soon, it looks a small oring above the bottom glide ring. It is just speculation until a few of us get one to confirm. Its's the same lubrication gap as the old design in-between and the black section appears to be smaller than before(I didn't even notice it on first glance, though the grease covering it doesn't help either). We will find out soon.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Haven't had a chance to ride a mattoc yet, but am known as a manitou honk. I have a McLeod I have been using on and off for most the summer and figured it was time to get a mattoc to match. My pike had 3 warranty claims in the last few months and I'm just sick of dealing with it. They sent me a full 2016 replacement and I just sold it without installing it(figured highest resale value with uncut steerer)
> 
> I'm pretty pumped to get it.


Cool. I found my Mattoc took some time to really break in - but not in your normal way. Small bump sensitivity was good from the start but the ability to use full travel and overall smoothness really became amazing after about 50 hours. I will say that I checked the fork after a few use and changed the bath oil and the damper oil to reset them. I would still recommend people do that as well.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Cool. I found my Mattoc took some time to really break in - but not in your normal way. Small bump sensitivity was good from the start but the ability to use full travel and overall smoothness really became amazing after about 50 hours. I will say that I checked the fork after a few use and changed the bath oil and the damper oil to reset them. I would still recommend people do that as well.


I have to change travel to 150 and will replace the piston before installing. Figured I would just do a full rebuild as well to check everything out.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

imbecile said:


> I'm pretty sure the quad ring is still there in between, there has to be a seal and glide rings don't have such properties. This double glide ring arrangement would (I guess) restrict radial play in the piston and probably mitigate any air/oil migration observed with the previous design.


Yup, there is a quad ring between the two glide rings. Manitou even sent a small tube of lube for the piston. Great company.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Yup, there is a quad ring between the two glide rings. Manitou even sent a small tube of lube for the piston. Great company.


They are sending lube because they are switching from prep m to slick honey (slicoleum)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So I received and changed out the piston this weekend. Manitou had sent it when I asked and I thought I would install it, even though I did not have major issues with air leaks (but some oil migration between the positive and negative sides). As stated, this piston just used the supplied grease and no longer uses oil, so no more oil leaks.

The piston look similar and does have a quad ring between the two guide rings.

Here is a pic of the two pistons side by side. The new one is on the right, installed on the air shaft.


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

Hi fellows!

Recently I acquired a Mattoc Comp. It feels like it has a slight impact with "cling" noise just at the beginning of the stroke - any ideas what it may be? I am sure its from the fork not the headset, hub/axle or brake.

Otherwise the fork rides great  holds its pressure and goes trough the travel as it should. No other noises or strange feel after its sagged.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

pr3d4t0r said:


> Hi fellows!
> 
> Recently I acquired a Mattoc Comp. It feels like it has a slight impact with "cling" noise just at the beginning of the stroke - any ideas what it may be? I am sure its from the fork not the headset, hub/axle or brake.
> 
> Otherwise the fork rides great  holds its pressure and goes trough the travel as it should. No other noises or strange feel after its sagged.


The comp version uses the MARS Air spring.
As seen here:








Sounds like the spring of the MARS Air system might be misaligned, or even possibly that the mars spring isn't strong enough for your air pressure. (not aware of any ride kits you could get for it though)
What happens when you drop the air pressure down?
Does it get rid of the noise?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

pr3d4t0r said:


> Hi fellows!
> 
> Recently I acquired a Mattoc Comp. It feels like it has a slight impact with "cling" noise just at the beginning of the stroke - any ideas what it may be? I am sure its from the fork not the headset, hub/axle or brake.
> 
> Otherwise the fork rides great  holds its pressure and goes trough the travel as it should. No other noises or strange feel after its sagged.


Yup, as scrar4me indicated, it most likely is the mars spring. I used to wrap the coil in plastic but in the end, I just lived with the noise. You can also lube the crap out of it but it will still make a slight rattling noise.


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

Hi all...new here 
Anyway, perhaps this has been posted before. Form the reading of the topic it looks like my "issue" has at least been indirectly discussed.
Anyway I recently bought a Mattoc Pro and the LBS set it to 140mm travel.
Anyway it looked a bit weird to me in that the travel looked short. So I measured the exposed stanchions (around 130mm) and the total used travel (110mm).
So that was short on both counts. I then read that one should place the fork upside down, remove all the air (depressing the valve with 3mm allen key) and then pull on the lowers to get the rest of the air out.
So I did this and now there is the full 165mm or so of stanchion exposed...With a fair bit of oil that came out through the valve. So 1 problem solved..I think?
Whats with the oil that came out, is that normal?
Anyway, I re-pressurised the fork for about 54 PSI (i'm 75kg or so with kit on and that's a good starting pressure to fiddle) and went and tested it to see how much i could get it to compress.
Anyway long story short I can only measure 120mm of travel instead of 140mm or closer.
Anyone had a similar problem or potentially know what could be up?
Maybe I should just have them take all the spacers out and run it at 160mm as it seems either way it doesn't seem it'll change the geometry while stationary.

Also I have noticed according to Manitou my high speed dial should have 5 clicks, but i seem to only have max 4? Anyone else encountered this?

Appreciate the help and sorry if I missed the answers somewhere in the thread


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

@ scar4me & Vespasianus Thank you for the fast responses! : - )

I am around 75 kg with gear and the pressure is 55 psi - pretty much what Manitiou recommends for this weight. So I guess the pressure is not too excessive in order to compromise the MARS spring. As far as I understood it is nothing to worry about, but nevertheless what is the correct alignment of the coil?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cuan said:


> Hi all...new here
> Anyway, perhaps this has been posted before. Form the reading of the topic it looks like my "issue" has at least been indirectly discussed.
> Anyway I recently bought a Mattoc Pro and the LBS set it to 140mm travel.
> Anyway it looked a bit weird to me in that the travel looked short. So I measured the exposed stanchions (around 130mm) and the total used travel (110mm).
> ...


So, yes, add air with the bike upside down. When you fill the fork with air, it is best to attach the pump pull the legs apart and fill with air. Before you remove the pump, also pull the legs apart. What I don't get is how a lot of oil would come out of the air valve when the fork is upside down?

Also, if your fork is set a 140 mm, I don't see how it should have 165 showing. I run a 26" fork and at 160mm of travel I have only 165mm of stanchion showing and closer to 163 on one edge. I wonder if you are not filling the negative chamber correctly and this is causing the fork to extend to much?

As for the lack of travel, you might have too much oil in your damper. That is easy to check and Manitous site has good information on this.

If possible I would do a full rebuild using the video's on Manitou's site. This should get the fork in order.

ps/ Welcome! Hopefully we can help get your fork working!


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> So, yes, add air with the bike upside down. When you fill the fork with air, it is best to attach the pump pull the legs apart and fill with air. Before you remove the pump, also pull the legs apart. What I don't get is how a lot of oil would come out of the air valve when the fork is upside down?
> 
> Also, if your fork is set a 140 mm, I don't see how it should have 165 showing. I run a 26" fork and at 160mm of travel I have only 165mm of stanchion showing and closer to 163 on one edge. I wonder if you are not filling the negative chamber correctly and this is causing the fork to extend to much?
> 
> ...


Thanks a tonne. 
The way the travel works from what I can tell is that you almost always have the full length of the stanchion exposed. Then you put in the spacers and they reduce how far the stanchions can travel into the lowers? Or am I crazy? 
Anyway...I'll get onto checking the oil levels under the damper when I can scrounge together the tools. From what I understand you can get by without the slotted cassette tool? Using the Park FR1-2 or something?
As for why I have so few clicks on the high speed compression (4 as opposed to 5?)...I dunno.
I tried what was suggested earlier. Rotating all the way counter clockwise, removing the dials, then "rotating them" one or two clicks and try to tun them back some more. In case they were installed incorrectly, but that didn't work.
Wen't for a ride today and the bike feels so super weird with the fork now seeing as it's changed the head angle a bit.
Also I get some oil leakage from the air valve side. I'd guess (as I haven't whipped out the vernier yet) that the poppet valve thing might be hitting on the valve cap when tightening?
Seems even the local Manitou agents here don't have much experience with these forks 
I'll keep updated if I come right, but any other suggestions welcome in the interim


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

The February issue of What Mountain Bike has a review of the Mattoc. They like it but judge it second to the X-fusion Sweep. Reading the review, it almost seems they felt the Mattoc was too plush, while the Sweep offered more feedback.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Cuan said:


> Thanks a tonne.
> The way the travel works from what I can tell is that you almost always have the full length of the stanchion exposed. Then you put in the spacers and they reduce how far the stanchions can travel into the lowers? Or am I crazy?
> Anyway...I'll get onto checking the oil levels under the damper when I can scrounge together the tools. From what I understand you can get by without the slotted cassette tool? Using the Park FR1-2 or something?


No, the travel spacers drop the entire fork down.
For 650b you should generally have travel +10mm showing on the stantions. For 26in it has the same as stantions (cos there is a spacer added under the bottom out bumper, along with a 10mm longer HBO rod in the damper for the 650b setup)

You just need a cassette tool with a large internal hole to remove the air piston. Just means you have to remove any spacers on the air piston and push it all the way in before undoing it

I wrote a guide ages ago here:
http://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/blog/manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues.html

Its not complicated, but need oils n grease really.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> The February issue of What Mountain Bike has a review of the Mattoc. They like it but judge it second to the X-fusion Sweep. Reading the review, it almost seems they felt the Mattoc was too plush, while the Sweep offered more feedback.


They might need some instruction on what adjustable LSC does!


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## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

Vespasianus said:


> The February issue of What Mountain Bike has a review of the Mattoc. They like it but judge it second to the X-fusion Sweep. Reading the review, it almost seems they felt the Mattoc was too plush, while the Sweep offered more feedback.


Sweep RL2 or Sweep HLR?


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> They might need some instruction on what adjustable LSC does!


Just like in pinkbike "review" of Ragley Blue Pig hardtail:
Ragley Blue Pig Hardtail - Review - Pinkbike


> Manitou Mattoc Comp fork: Manitou isn't a familiar sight on mountain bikes these days, but the latest Mattoc Comp has a lot going for it. With the 34mm stanchion and reverse crown, it's a stiff fork and tracks well, although the damping didn't feel quite as refined as the latest offerings from Fox and RockShox. The Hex Lock QR15 is fiddly to use and takes some practice to get the hang of.


I'm sure they compared it to rockshox or fox fork they used to know from full suspension bike to Mattoc mounted on hardtail. Then of course the damping might not seem to be as refined...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

PhillipJ said:


> Sweep RL2 or Sweep HLR?


Sweep HLR.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Just like in pinkbike "review" of Ragley Blue Pig hardtail:
> Ragley Blue Pig Hardtail - Review - Pinkbike
> 
> I'm sure they compared it to rockshox or fox fork they used to know from full suspension bike to Mattoc mounted on hardtail. Then of course the damping might not seem to be as refined...


They also are judging the lowest (OEM) only Mattoc with a high end Pike or Fox unit. Heck, the 36 would be 70% of the entire bike they tested!


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

Quick question....if you add the travel spacers does it actually lower the fork by the amount of spacers or does it limit travel while still having the 160mm of stanchion?


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

It lowers the fork, less stantion at topout

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Sweep HLR.


When I purchased my mattoc a few weeks ago, I thought hard about waiting for the revel hlr since the damper gets rave reviews. I ended up with the mattoc because the customer service is ridiculous and the irt upgrade. Really want to try the hlr damper though, and the inverted revel chasis.... next time maybe....


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> When I purchased my mattoc a few weeks ago, I thought hard about waiting for the revel hlr since the damper gets rave reviews. I ended up with the mattoc because the customer service is ridiculous and the irt upgrade. Really want to try the hlr damper though, and the inverted revel chasis.... next time maybe....


How is the Mattoc working out for you?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> How is the Mattoc working out for you?


Not a lot of time on it because of weather and other issues. My McLeod is at Manitou getting an update which doesn't help either. My only complaint so far is the 4 clicks of rebound on it leaves me between clicks, but they are sending me an updated rebound assembly with more clicks with my McLeod, so that should solve that. I will have more of an opinion once I can get more time on it.


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

croakies said:


> It lowers the fork, less stantion at topout
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


I figured that was the case but the info on adding spacers had me wondering...thank you for clearing that up.



mullen119 said:


> Not a lot of time on it because of weather and other issues. My McLeod is at Manitou getting an update which doesn't help either. My only complaint so far is the 4 clicks of rebound on it leaves me between clicks, but they are sending me an updated rebound assembly with more clicks with my McLeod, so that should solve that. I will have more of an opinion once I can get more time on it.


What was the issue with your Mcleod?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Not a lot of time on it because of weather and other issues. My McLeod is at Manitou getting an update which doesn't help either. My only complaint so far is the 4 clicks of rebound on it leaves me between clicks, but they are sending me an updated rebound assembly with more clicks with my McLeod, so that should solve that. I will have more of an opinion once I can get more time on it.


I don't know why they gave the expert only 4 clicks of rebound.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

meSSican said:


> I figured that was the case but the info on adding spacers had me wondering...thank you for clearing that up.
> 
> What was the issue with your Mcleod?


Had a little bit of play on the piston/preload ring interface that you could feel. No big deal, but I'm picky so had the fix that and change the rebound tune a little bit


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Trajan said:


> I don't know why they gave the expert only 4 clicks of rebound.


The first production run only had 4 clicks on the expert,they have since updated it. Even though I just ordered mine, it had a build date of April 2014 so I got stuck with the older model. No big deal though since they sent me the updated air piston and now rebound damper.

Seriously, you can't beat that service.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Got my McLeod back and installed the new mattoc expert rebound damper. The expert now has 9 clicks of rebound instead of 4.

For people who run with the travel less than 160mm, do you feel the fork is a bit soft off the top? The design seems to add volume to the negative chamber when you lower the travel and it feels a bit weak for the first 1/3 of travel. I'm 160lbs in gear and running 75psi (according to my pump) and it still feels a bit soft. 2 clicks of lsc and 2 click in for hsc.(counting in because you loose track of clicks when close to full closed).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> View attachment 1043360
> 
> 
> Got my McLeod back and installed the new mattoc expert rebound damper. The expert now has 9 clicks of rebound instead of 4.
> ...


Yes the fork is very plush off the top. If you want a firmer ride, run the LSC all the way clockwise (fully closed) and adjust the HSC to get a firmer feel off the top. It will not negatively impact the feel of the fork through its stroke.

I am 200lbs and am running close to 60 psi (26" fork at 160). I run rebound 2 clicks from full fast with HSC and LSC at 3 clicks. HBO is at 2 clicks. Fork is very plush off the top and is amazing on the big stuff.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Well my original Mattoc is sold. Now for the hard question. What colour Mattoc to replace it with?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Well my original Mattoc is sold. Now for the hard question. What colour Mattoc to replace it with?


Well I've always liked the matt Red (if you couldn't tell).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

scar4me said:


> Well I've always liked the matt Red (if you couldn't tell).
> View attachment 1043694


If I went red I'd probably end up with matching bars & stem.

I have a set of black lowers here unstickered for another option.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> If I went red I'd probably end up with matching bars & stem.
> 
> I have a set of black lowers here unstickered for another option.


I ran my Nixon like that and liked it. Have the new black stanchion mattocs come out yet?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I ran my Nixon like that and liked it. Have the new black stanchion mattocs come out yet?


Not yet, I was trying to get one.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Not yet, I was trying to get one.


I still find it amazing that forks purchased in 2016 were manufactured in 2014. It almost seems that all the manitou mattocs were made in April of 2014. Honestly, I do wonder how many were actually sold.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I got my on discount, was a 2014. Makes me wonder what year it would have been had a paid full price. I think they sell better overseas than in America. Americans are stuck on Fox and Rockshox only. So many other good brands.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I got my on discount, was a 2014. Makes me wonder what year it would have been had a paid full price. I think they sell better overseas than in America. Americans are stuck on Fox and Rockshox only. So many other good brands.


I think you are right. I purchased mine through my LBS, who got it from BTI. I think I have seen the Mattoc as OEM equipment on some european brands.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Bikeradar Mattoc Pro review:

Manitou Mattoc Pro suspension fork review - BikeRadar


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

CS645 said:


> Bikeradar Mattoc Pro review:
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro suspension fork review - BikeRadar


Review is very odd and was in the latest issue of WMB. The Dorado air spring is very soft off the top, and the small bump compliance is excellent.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Review is very odd and was in the latest issue of WMB. The Dorado air spring is very soft off the top, and the small bump compliance is excellent.


The way I took it, is that they feel the stroke it's too soft off the top and the soft stroke leads to questionable traction at times because it can dive. They mentioned IRT possibly solving the issue since it can add mid stroke support without a huge effect on bottoming resistance.

I have never really trusted bikeradar reviews personally.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

And yet again, in another Bike Radar Manitou fork review, the use the phrase "reverse arch chassis is slightly heavy and its narrow stance ". That gets trotted out in _every single Manitou fork review_. Honestly, you wonder if they actually if they actually put any effort into reviewing them properly these days, or just go into it with a whole lot of preconceptions already in place!
And it's not exactly much of a "review" either, no mention of set up used, air pressure, travel or what type of terrain it was ridden on (except for a quick mention about gnarly rock gardens) . Nothing about how long it was tested for - one day, one month, one afternoon. Without any of that info, it's a pretty pointless "review" really. The Original Pinkbike and VitalMTB reviews were a lot better in that regard, that's for sure.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> The way I took it, is that they feel the stroke it's too soft off the top and the soft stroke leads to questionable traction at times because it can dive. They mentioned IRT possibly solving the issue since it can add mid stroke support without a huge effect on bottoming resistance.
> 
> I have never really trusted bikeradar reviews personally.


The review actually says its so plush, that they struggled to judge the traction limits when it was technical and wet.

Also surprised at the mention of the reverse arch making it 'heavy'. Last time I checked the mattoc is at the light end of the spectrum.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> I have never really trusted bikeradar reviews personally.


I'm pretty sure Bike Radar just copy pastes their 10 year old Manitou R7 review and changes the model name every time they "review" a Manitou fork. It's the only way I can think of that the words "narrow stance" end up in every Manitou "review" they do.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I worked for one local computer magazine few years ago. Its the same, they have universal templates for product reviews, just fill in the name, other parameters and the review is almost done. Based on amount of advertising from brand, they just add some nice words.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Do you guys have a picture of your mattoc cassette tool? I'm asking because I have issues with my mine' it doesn't fit very well and i cant unscrew the pistons without damaging the teeth

Here's a pic of mine (brand new)


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

The Park Tool FR-1 and FR-5 work without issue (probably many others too, but these are what's on my bench).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> Do you guys have a picture of your mattoc cassette tool? I'm asking because I have issues with my mine' it doesn't fit very well and i cant unscrew the pistons without damaging the teeth
> 
> Here's a pic of mine (brand new)


That looks right and as Dirt says below, the park tool version work as well. It should just slide in. Is yours not sliding in or does it slip when you turn it?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

It just does slip

Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

The tooth patter shown above is correct, however, the internal diameter and depth on a few tools are too small to slide over the foot nut/bolt and fully engage.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> The tooth patter shown above is correct, however, the internal diameter and depth on a few tools are too small to slide over the foot nut/bolt and fully engage.


To make one standard cassette tool work I ended up removing all spacers from the air rod (10mm spacer and bottom out bumper), and compressing it all the way and putting the tool over the end of the rod.
(I had a tool that didn't have a slot in it.)
Another tool I had didn't have a big enough internal hole, so just plain wouldn't work.

Scar


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> The tooth patter shown above is correct, however, the internal diameter and depth on a few tools are too small to slide over the foot nut/bolt and fully engage.


The fellow's tool looks to be an official manitou tool, if it is wrong, do you think Manitou will warranty either the tool or the end cap?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

This is the manitou official tool ( although it doesn't look like the same on the commercial picture) I had to return it once, because of that slipping problem.
I haven't, tried the new one yet but it just looks like my previous, I guess the problem will remain.



Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## DirtMerchantBicycles (May 23, 2014)

Yes, I now see that the back side of the tool is cut out. I see no reason why the tool would not fully engage which leads me to believe the splines on the fork are damaged/stripped.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

No the fork is brand new I paid attention to not strip the splines, they are still ok

Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> No the fork is brand new I paid attention to not strip the splines, they are still ok
> 
> Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


If the tool is identical to the first tool and it still has the slipping problem, there are two possibilities. First, it would mean either you are doing it wrong or second, the cap has something wrong. I would ask for a new end cap unit (ask for the entire air compression assembly) and if you have the same issue, than it is most likely your technique.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Well there's not 50 solutions, i followed the service video for changing travel, plugged the cassette tool once, turned counterclockwise with the wrench, it slipped, end cap did not move at all.

Tried again with applying pressure on the cassette tool (to engage fully the teeth), turned the wrench carefully, slipped again..

Tried a 3rd time, same thing, stoped right away to not damage the end cap.

It's not the first time i open a fork, but i find it rather strange that a 50€ tool kit does not make the job easy! 
I'm gonna try tomorow with the new manitou cassette tool, and with a "normal" cassette tool that i have, following scar4me technique.

The teeth on a classic cassette tool looks much more compliant to do the job tbh.

By the way the manitou tool doesn't look like the one used on the mattoc service video, weird.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> Well there's not 50 solutions, i followed the service video for changing travel, plugged the cassette tool once, turned counterclockwise with the wrench, it slipped, end cap did not move at all.
> 
> Tried again with applying pressure on the cassette tool (to engage fully the teeth), turned the wrench carefully, slipped again..
> 
> ...


Actually, the tool makes it very easy, that is my point. The fact that you are having difficulty means it is one of the two things mentioned above. Try the new tool and see if that works better. If not, I would recommend getting a new end-cap.

You mentioned that it is not the first time you opened the fork, how did you do it before you had the tool?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

i meant it's not the first time i service myself a fork (rs or fox).

This one is brand new, first time i opened it


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> i meant it's not the first time i service myself a fork (rs or fox).
> 
> This one is brand new, first time i opened it


Gottcha. If you continue to have problems, I would contact Manitou. They have always been helpful.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Alright, i tried again this morning with the "new" tool... same issue, the teeth does not fully engage the end cap resulting in a slip even with a very little pressure on the wrench.

Gonna take pictures of the end cap (they look normal, i mean not damaged) and maybe a little video.

Will contact Manitou.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Will try to get a photo tomorrow but my Mattoc cassette tool is very short. The splines are about the same depth as the end cap, which makes sense. 

Where did you buy the tool from?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

i did buy it from the official french dealer of manitou products


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Will try to get a photo tomorrow but my Mattoc cassette tool is very short. The splines are about the same depth as the end cap, which makes sense.
> 
> Where did you buy the tool from?


You have a point. My tool looks just like this:









payze, your tool looks much longer and maybe is not correct.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

That's why i asked a picture to compare at first :winker:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Post a pic with the tool inserted into the end cap. This shouldn't be so complicated, it uses a standard cassette tool. I'm really curious as to why this is happening, I can't see a faultly cap being the issue as it would have had an issue being assembled.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Here it is


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

I think I know what happened. It looks like they sent you a freewheel tool instead of a cassette tool. Both tools have the same number of splines in the same locations, but the splines on a freewheel tool are shallower than those on a cassette tool. This would explain why the tool is slipping, and also why it's longer than the ones other people have.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

But why would they cut a freewheel tool ? maybe it's used for other manitou forks with 32mm stanchions ?

I will upload a small vid of the tool soon, you will see the play it has when plugged to the endcap


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## payze (May 19, 2014)




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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Send the video to manitou at [email protected].

In the meantime, take a thin rag and set the on the end cap. Then insert the tool over the rag. The rag should tighten the fit enough to remove the cap.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Good idea mullen, but i'll have to screw it back after service, don't know if that would work both ways


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

payze said:


> Good idea mullen, but i'll have to screw it back after service, don't know if that would work both ways


Hopefully manitou will have an answer for you and you can reassemble with a new cap.


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## jmhills (Oct 31, 2005)

I was just going to post up a question about whether or not Manitou is still around. I am just getting back into riding mountain and after crappy experiences with RS and Fox seals, I slammed a Minute 3 w/ IT on my old bike and never had a single problem with it. Loved the adjustability and the lightweight without it being flexy. 

Glad to see that they are still around. I am looking at 140mm travel 29ers and see that the Minute is still there. 

Why does Manitou have no real presence any more?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

DirtMerchantBicycles said:


> The Park Tool FR-1 and FR-5 work without issue (probably many others too, but these are what's on my bench).


I have the official manitou tool and have had trouble with it slipping like one of the posters. The problem with the cutout tool is that flexes when you torque it and then slips. I use a the FR-5 like Dirt Merchant instead and it works perfectly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jmhills said:


> I was just going to post up a question about whether or not Manitou is still around. I am just getting back into riding mountain and after crappy experiences with RS and Fox seals, I slammed a Minute 3 w/ IT on my old bike and never had a single problem with it. Loved the adjustability and the lightweight without it being flexy.
> 
> Glad to see that they are still around. I am looking at 140mm travel 29ers and see that the Minute is still there.
> 
> Why does Manitou have no real presence any more?


They are working on it. They do fairly well with aftermarket sales, it's oem where they struggle, especially in the USA. The Mattoc, Magnum, and McLeod are excellent products and showing up in the oem market. Minutes and marvel are also good products, though the spring technology is a little dated when compared to other brands offerings. They make up for it by using some of the best dampers on the market.

Speaking of market, Manitou doesn't have the the marketing budget of the big 2 and that holds them back a bit as well. Customer loyalty keeps them going as most people who use a recent Manitou product have a great experience and look to continue using them in the future.


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## jmhills (Oct 31, 2005)

I understand that sentiment. I am interested in sourcing a Manitou fork because I had the best luck in the past. Manitou and an old Z1 Marz Bomber I still run on my hardtail have been the best to me. 

The problem is that in the longer travel 29 category, Manitou doesn't list much there. The Minute is it really. Regardless of technology available, I never reached the limits of the Minute 3 I have and it was perfect to me.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jmhills said:


> I understand that sentiment. I am interested in sourcing a Manitou fork because I had the best luck in the past. Manitou and an old Z1 Marz Bomber I still run on my hardtail have been the best to me.
> 
> The problem is that in the longer travel 29 category, Manitou doesn't list much there. The Minute is it really. Regardless of technology available, I never reached the limits of the Minute 3 I have and it was perfect to me.


A magnum 27.5+ is basically a standard 29r fork. As long as you don't run huge tires anyway. Boost 110 axle though.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Merida is speccing the Mattoc Expert on one of their models for next year - the One Sixty 7 600 (ONE-SIXTY 7. 600 - Full Suspension - Merida Bikes International). Having the 2nd largest bike manufacturer in the world spec them oem has got to be a good foot in the door. At least in most markets except America, pretty sure you guys don't get Merida bikes over there?

Also, how do the Park tools FR1 and FR5 work on the lower shafts without out the cutouts?


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Kiwiplague said:


> Also, how do the Park tools FR1 and FR5 work on the lower shafts without out the cutouts?


You just need to push the damper/air spring shaft all the way in to have access with the tool. Without cutout you don't risk scratching the shaft


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

RoboS said:


> You just need to push the damper/air spring shaft all the way in to have access with the tool. Without cutout you don't risk scratching the shaft


I just cut a slot in mine. Took 3 minutes with an angle grinder/cut-off wheel. Ground down an 8mm socket for the air side foot nut as well.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Anybody mess with the compression shim stack yet? I get a feeling in the spring when trails are in better condition and speed picks up, I'm going to want to stiffen the shim stack. I could just add another click of hsc, but when the stack gets heavily preloaded (near max), it gets a touch spike to me. I think a stiffer stack with less preload might be the ticket.

That said, it's just speculation because the few rides I have been able to get in have been at a slow pace for reasons outside my control. Just curious if anyone has messed with it yet.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Anybody mess with the compression shim stack yet? I get a feeling in the spring when trails are in better condition and speed picks up, I'm going to want to stiffen the shim stack. I could just add another click of hsc, but when the stack gets heavily preloaded (near max), it gets a touch spike to me. I think a stiffer stack with less preload might be the ticket.
> 
> That said, it's just speculation because the few rides I have been able to get in have been at a slow pace for reasons outside my control. Just curious if anyone has messed with it yet.


I have not but have wondered. How easy is it? I thought the LSC was controlled by a needle and port, not a shim.

In the past, I would actually just buy a new compression assembly to allow me to tinker. I may try that agains this spring.

Are you looking for a firmer start? What is your current set-up?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Anybody mess with the compression shim stack yet? I get a feeling in the spring when trails are in better condition and speed picks up, I'm going to want to stiffen the shim stack. I could just add another click of hsc, but when the stack gets heavily preloaded (near max), it gets a touch spike to me. I think a stiffer stack with less preload might be the ticket.
> 
> That said, it's just speculation because the few rides I have been able to get in have been at a slow pace for reasons outside my control. Just curious if anyone has messed with it yet.


I haven't had to run past 2 clicks of each LSC and HSC. The faster you ride the better these forks get.

I have seen the damper dyno plots for the stock Mattoc tune. Even with HSC closed and LSC open there isn't a spike. Just a gradual increase in force with velocity. With the opposite (LSC closed and HSC closing) a significant platform builds.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I have not but have wondered. How easy is it? I thought the LSC was controlled by a needle and port, not a shim.
> 
> In the past, I would actually just buy a new compression assembly to allow me to tinker. I may try that agains this spring.
> 
> Are you looking for a firmer start? What is your current set-up?


Low speed is a needle/port.

Hsc and lsc are tied together pretty closely with mc2. When hsc is full open, the lsc is pretty much useless because the hsc shim stack flows all the oil. As you add hsc, the lsc becomes more effective. I'm running hsc 2 from max to get a good lsc feel. Set up seems great, but I think it may be a bit soft in the summer, only time will tell.

If I was to.add more hsc and further preload the stack, I can see it starting to choke oil flow on hsc events and start to feel a touch spikey. That's just a guess(based on other products with preloaded stacks) I think if a stiffen the stack, I can get the feel I want without too much preload.

All just speculation at this point though. I know Manitou offers an "optimized" shim stack, though.im not sure what it is. I may ask when it's time to mess with it. Just curious if anyone already had and if so, what they found.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

I sent my Mattoc to Manitou because it was only getting 125mm of travel after working perfectly for a while. They rebuilt it, and when I got it back it felt like the compression settings were doing nothing. I sent it back again and they said it appeared to be working properly, but they would throw in a new damper and a "custom" shim stack that offered more support. It works really well now, but I can still bottom it more easily than I could when I first got it. I'm running 2 clicks LSC and HSC from full open, and the HBO fully closed. I have a feeling when I first got it it already had some oil in the air spring making it more progressive. I also ended up with a new upper crown and stanchions in the whole process because Manitou's customer service is awesome.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lanceuppercut said:


> I sent my Mattoc to Manitou because it was only getting 125mm of travel after working perfectly for a while. They rebuilt it, and when I got it back it felt like the compression settings were doing nothing. I sent it back again and they said it appeared to be working properly, but they would throw in a new damper and a "custom" shim stack that offered more support. It works really well now, but I can still bottom it more easily than I could when I first got it. I'm running 2 clicks LSC and HSC from full open, and the HBO fully closed. I have a feeling when I first got it it already had some oil in the air spring making it more progressive. I also ended up with a new upper crown and stanchions in the whole process because Manitou's customer service is awesome.


Actually, your hypothesis of oil in the main chamber is most likely right. As the oil moved down to the negative chamber, the travel could be limited.

Based open your pictures in this thread, you might want to try the IRT system. That should increase both the mid-stroke and the eventual end-stroke.


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## ejewels (Jul 16, 2009)

*Random clip part came out!*

So I noticed my hexlock was extra hard to get out today. When it finally came out, a little clip part came out with it. Any ideas what this does/is? Is it needed? I swear I can't win with this bike. First my new wheels need to be trued, my LBS tweaked my rotor, now this with the fork :madman:


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, your hypothesis of oil in the main chamber is most likely right. As the oil moved down to the negative chamber, the travel could be limited.


Unlikely, considering oil appears to migrate to the negative chamber and from there it's more likely to affect the start of stroke. Probably had an over-filled damper from factory, with the problem progressively getting worse due to ingestion from the lowers.

Why did you get a new CSU? Was it creaking?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhyolite said:


> Unlikely, considering oil appears to migrate to the negative chamber and from there it's more likely to affect the start of stroke. Probably had an over-filled damper from factory, with the problem progressively getting worse due to ingestion from the lowers.
> 
> jewels, I have no idea what that thing is. Does the QR15 still work?
> Why did you get a new CSU? Was it creaking?


What ends up happening is that at the start, all the oil on top of the piston helps the bottom out. When it gets to the bottom, it limits travel. There is still enough oil and grease on top of the piston in most conditions to keep it moving.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

"Why did you get a new CSU? Was it creaking?"

I had cable rub on the crown, and they felt it was enough to compromise the crown strength.


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## lanceuppercut (Mar 9, 2010)

A friend of mine was experiencing the same problem I had of the travel shopping at 125mm. The fork felt completely normal through the stroke until it just stopped at 125mm. We suspected oil in the negative spring. He pulled it apart, and there was no oil. He tried to cycle the damper by hand and could only do it about half way pushing hard. He popped open the damper and he said it was like it was pressurized with gas. It made a hissing sound and depressurized as he opened it. He filled it with new oil and it works perfectly again.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

ejewels said:


> So I noticed my hexlock was extra hard to get out today. When it finally came out, a little clip part came out with it. Any ideas what this does/is? Is it needed? I swear I can't win with this bike. First my new wheels need to be trued, my LBS tweaked my rotor, now this with the fork :madman:
> 
> View attachment 1049374


Get a torx Key and take off the opposite Silver cap to the hexlock and have a look inside.
Likelyhood is you've snapped off a part of the hexlock mechanism.
Looking inside should be able to tell if it's an issue at all.
(My guess is it's the part that helps it "click" into place in the closed position, so wouldn't ride the fork without it)

Scar


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

lanceuppercut said:


> A friend of mine was experiencing the same problem I had of the travel shopping at 125mm. The fork felt completely normal through the stroke until it just stopped at 125mm. We suspected oil in the negative spring. He pulled it apart, and there was no oil. He tried to cycle the damper by hand and could only do it about half way pushing hard. He popped open the damper and he said it was like it was pressurized with gas. It made a hissing sound and depressurized as he opened it. He filled it with new oil and it works perfectly again.


this happened to me last summer after making a trip to Colorado at >9k feet versus my normal altitude of ~3300 feet.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

ejewels said:


> So I noticed my hexlock was extra hard to get out today. When it finally came out, a little clip part came out with it. now this with the fork :madman:


Have you got a clearer picture of the dropout showing the hole for the axle? It looks really scratched up in the picture you've posted above.


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## ejewels (Jul 16, 2009)

It looks worse than it is. I contacted manitou and the part was from the axle itself. They're sending me a newer, revised one apparently


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

So I've now had 3 hours on the Mattoc. I'm coming off 18 months on my Pike RC (26" 160mm) which I found too harsh.
Mattoc is set up as 26" and 170mm. I'm about 78kg (170lb) ready to ride and have dropped the pressure from 65-45psi today. First part of the ride everything wide open, then for the last part, sped the rebound up a touch to 3 clicks from open, LSC open and 1 click of high speed from open. The bottom out I had 2 clicks from open.
My first impression seems odd. I can't get over how quiet the fork is. It's not like the Pike was a noisy fork, the cable routing is different obviously. But my whole bike feels silent. I asked Dougal about it, basically shows the fork is doing its job and not sending vibration through the rest of the bike!
There is plenty of front end grip and I didn't notice any dramatic diving at any point. About the only complaint I have was riding down a rough fire road at a reasonable speed and thought that it was a bit firm. At the bottom I realised I had not changed the rebound setting at all and it was in the middle of it's range. I then opened it until it was 3 clicks from open.
Other than that it's a bit like putting the Ohlins on the back, I just forgot about it. I used 155mm of travel, so I will play with the pressure a little to test my ability to bottom the fork. I suspect I will need a touch higher pressure for park/DH riding (like the Pike did) but I'm really pleased with it out of the box. I can't imagine there is much of a break in.
Aesthetically it's a good looking fork. The reverse arch was not something I noticed and it didn't appear narrower than the Pike, perhaps if you were switching between bikes it would be noticeable. 
Obviously it's early days, but the bike feels really balanced and I pushed myself a bit quicker into some corners which gave me a fright. I hadn't noticed carrying the extra speed.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Hi guys, about my cassette i posted a week ago, i returned everything at the manitou dealer, the tool was wrong and they did not have anything else in stock, so they did the travel change for me to ride asap :thumbsup:

I rode the fork today it's a wonderfull change compared to my old fox talas.

But i have 1 question:

- Is the LSC adjustement very noticeable between open and closed mode, because it does not seems to affect very much the low speed compression, I tested on parking and when riding (i precise i run 2 clicks of HSC from open)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The more hsc you run, the more noticeable the lsc will be in a parking lot test.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Yes thanks, i read that on this thread p27-28 there is a relation between lsc and hsc, i will try that next time!

But with 2 click of HSC, LSC is maybe more sensible with a higher PSI ?(i run only 50psi)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Anybody see this:

The Heller Shagamaw Plus Bike gets two sets of wheels instead of legs, and new Manitou Machete Plus fork! - Bikerumor

They mention a new Manitou fork, the Manitou Machete.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> Anybody see this:
> 
> The Heller Shagamaw Plus Bike gets two sets of wheels instead of legs, and new Manitou Machete Plus fork! - Bikerumor
> 
> They mention a new Manitou fork, the Manitou Machete.


I'm guessing an updated boost axled version of the Minute/Tower fork.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Kiwiplague said:


> I'm guessing an updated boost axled version of the Minute/Tower fork.


I also like that new bolt-on front axle, hopefully something comes out to retrofit the non-boost stuff.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

riiz said:


> I also like that new bolt-on front axle, hopefully something comes out to retrofit the non-boost stuff.


Already is, though Iike most manitou upgrades, nearly impossible to find. If you go to a shop, they should be able to order it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Kiwiplague said:


> I'm guessing an updated boost axled version of the Minute/Tower fork.


Could be but there is a bolt at the bottom of the leg, which suggests no dorado air spring.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Already is, though Iike most manitou upgrades, nearly impossible to find. If you go to a shop, they should be able to order it.


Even then, you cant find it domestically, I've ordered alot of Manitou parts through Chainreactioncycles.com.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I have generally just walked into my LBS, gave them part number or name and waited a week and the part would be in my hands. I think they get the parts from BTI or QBP, but I am not 100% sure. This is in the USA.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dirt MTB have a Mattoc in for testing, interesting to see what they think, looks like it has the bolt up axle instead of the quick release:

https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-r...attoc-pro-160mm-fork.html#0KD1JxCcbikVH3Km.97


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Dirt MTB have a Mattoc in for testing, interesting to see what they think, looks like it has the bolt up axle instead of the quick release:
> 
> https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-r...attoc-pro-160mm-fork.html#0KD1JxCcbikVH3Km.97


I saw that as well. I wonder if they are running a fork with a IVA or IRT system. If not, they are testing a fork that may be 2 years old and most likely designed over 3 years ago. It also looks like their stanchions are scratched in several places.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> I saw that as well. I wonder if they are running a fork with a IVA or IRT system. If not, they are testing a fork that may be 2 years old and most likely designed over 3 years ago. It also looks like their stanchions are scratched in several places.


Makes you wonder if that's their test fork or stock images. Apart from 26 vs 27 it's the same fork I've just landed to replace my black Mattoc. The red is much brighter in person than the photos show.

Bolt up is coming.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> I saw that as well. I wonder if they are running a fork with a IVA or IRT system. If not, they are testing a fork that may be 2 years old and most likely designed over 3 years ago. It also looks like their stanchions are scratched in several places.


The fork pictured is running the newer tooled axle though, so it could be a newer model (unless they swapped axles for some reason?).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Makes you wonder if that's their test fork or stock images. Apart from 26 vs 27 it's the same fork I've just landed to replace my black Mattoc. The red is much brighter in person than the photos show.
> 
> Bolt up is coming.


That is right. I thought the Mattoc was supposed to go black! In the service video's they even say that 2015 mattocs would have the IVA cap.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

CS645 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Well it's from October, but that's the same ball park.
> 
> ...


Hi! I wanted to ask where did you get this kit and how much did it cost? What else was included in the kit?

BTW - is there a complete list of Manitou spare parts and kits available somewhere? For example searching for the part number above, this thread is the only match. Or is this list only for official dealers?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

arnea said:


> Hi! I wanted to ask where did you get this kit and how much did it cost? What else was included in the kit?
> 
> BTW - is there a complete list of Manitou spare parts and kits available somewhere? For example searching for the part number above, this thread is the only match. Or is this list only for official dealers?


It was included with the fork. Not sure if one can buy it separately.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

arnea said:


> Hi! I wanted to ask where did you get this kit and how much did it cost? What else was included in the kit?
> 
> BTW - is there a complete list of Manitou spare parts and kits available somewhere? For example searching for the part number above, this thread is the only match. Or is this list only for official dealers?


If your fork didn't come with this, then get in contact with manitou support.
They should send you one. 
There were early batches of the mattoc that didn't come with this included, but it was included on all after this as standard spares.

I had to contact them and they sent me one for free about a year ago.

Scar
P.s. the part# is correct, but isn't normally sold as they are supposed to come with all forks.


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## ejewels (Jul 16, 2009)

2 questions about my 2015 mattoc pro:

1) does adding the travel adjust spacers and decreasing the travel to 150 or 140 decrease the forks ride height? I'm confused how adding spacers decreases it if so.

2) I'm in CT. Any reputable shops that can do this? Can most LBS do this work?

Thanks!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ejewels said:


> 2 questions about my 2015 mattoc pro:
> 
> 1) does adding the travel adjust spacers and decreasing the travel to 150 or 140 decrease the forks ride height? I'm confused how adding spacers decreases it if so.
> 
> ...


Yes, adding removing travel spaces will change the available travel and alter the axle to crown ratio (fork ride hight).

I am in PA so I can't help you with the shop names but if you take the fork and the instructions (or link) to a good LBS, they should be able to do it. The mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. I highly recommend getting the Manitou Tool kit ($50), which I think helps working on it.


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## Sid Duffman (Oct 5, 2015)

What do y'all think is the largest tire that would fit into a Mattoc? Any chance of clearing a Nobby Nic 27.5 x 2.8 mounted on a 32mm internal diameter rim?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Sid Duffman said:


> What do y'all think is the largest tire that would fit into a Mattoc? Any chance of clearing a Nobby Nic 27.5 x 2.8 mounted on a 32mm internal diameter rim?


Wow, that is a big tire - basically a 27.5+ tire, no? I know the Mattoc fits 2.4 inch tires fine but I doubt they would have made the Magnum 27.5+ if a tire that big would fit the mattoc.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Yes:
Mountainbike.nl ? Toon onderwerp - Banshee Spitfire


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Sid Duffman said:


> What do y'all think is the largest tire that would fit into a Mattoc? Any chance of clearing a Nobby Nic 27.5 x 2.8 mounted on a 32mm internal diameter rim?


Nobby nic 2.8 has a diameter of 720mm on a 29mm ID rim, 67mm widest point of the knobs, so measure up n see what you think.
Recon it'd be very very tight though looking at clearance on my 2.4 27.5 (23mmID).

Scar


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Stratus said:


> Yes:
> Mountainbike.nl ? Toon onderwerp - Banshee Spitfire


I would have never predicted that but it does look like it fits. A little tight but not terrible.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Given the Mattoc is already setup for spacers to go under the B/O bumpers you can just keep adding more to gain crown clearance at full compression. You'd have to extend the HBO cone to get the full functionality back.

I'm hoping those guys checked clearance at full compression!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Given the Mattoc is already setup for spacers to go under the B/O bumpers you can just keep adding more to gain crown clearance at full compression. You'd have to extend the HBO cone to get the full functionality back.
> 
> I'm hoping those guys checked clearance at full compression!


Well, how high can you go? Enough to stick a 29" wheel in there?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Well, how high can you go? Enough to stick a 29" wheel in there?


I think you'd struggle to fit that under the arch.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I think you'd struggle to fit that under the arch.


But I always thought the diameter of 27.5+ was similar to that with 29" tires. If people are basically shoving a 2.8" Schwable in there, I wonder how far off it would be. Not recommending it and have absolutely no clue but there looks to be lots of room there!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> But I always thought the diameter of 27.5+ was similar to that with 29" tires. If people are basically shoving a 2.8" Schwable in there, I wonder how far off it would be. Not recommending it and have absolutely no clue but there looks to be lots of room there!


I know what you're saying. I've personally fitted a 27x2.4" and had about a finger to spare under the arch (fingers are highly subjective measurements). So your overall diameter of a 29 is going to come down to specific tyre choice. There is 1.5" in diameter between a 27" (23" bead) and 29" (24.5" bead) rim.

Manitou do have some drawings out showing maximum design sizes for wheel radius and width. But I don't have those drawings or info for the Mattoc or Magnum.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Has anyone tried some of the new flangeless style dust seals from fox/sfk on the mattoc? 

Need to replace the push ones I have on there, weeping a lot of oil and high friction. They did not last long. 

I'm wondering why many (rockshox included) are making seals flangeless. Cheaper to manufacture maybe? 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

croakies said:


> Has anyone tried some of the new flangeless style dust seals from fox/sfk on the mattoc?
> 
> Need to replace the push ones I have on there, weeping a lot of oil and high friction. They did not last long.
> 
> ...


Wait, are you not using the Manitou seals? I have heard people using the SKF seals with good results. These, like the Push seals would do away with the oil seal.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

What benefit, if any, would this serve? I have been running my Mattoc for a year now and stiction, oil retention, migration of dirt into the fork, and items of that nature haven't been an issue...just curious what you guys are trying to accomplish.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

LaXCarp said:


> What benefit, if any, would this serve? I have been running my Mattoc for a year now and stiction, oil retention, migration of dirt into the fork, and items of that nature haven't been an issue...just curious what you guys are trying to accomplish.


Nothing haha. Just like to experiment. Stock seals are great. Wanted to squeeze out a little friction if possible but push seals not the way to go for the mattoc.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> What benefit, if any, would this serve? I have been running my Mattoc for a year now and stiction, oil retention, migration of dirt into the fork, and items of that nature haven't been an issue...just curious what you guys are trying to accomplish.


Sounds like masochism to me. Creating problems where none exist!

I've been amazed with how free the stock oil seals and wipers run. I've also had absolutely no oil escape. Can't ask for much more really!


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

2016(?) all black Mattoc pro:
Manitou Matttoc Pro27,5" Federgabel | Bikemarkt.MTB-News.de


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Stratus said:


> 2016(?) all black Mattoc pro:
> Manitou Matttoc Pro27,5" Federgabel | Bikemarkt.MTB-News.de


It's a take-off. There are already OEM Mattocs with the black stanchions. They have different graphics colors as well.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Hey anybody see the new data on the mattoc site:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MC2-User-Guide.pdf

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/IVA-Details.pdf

Really provides nice data on what each click of LS or HS does.

I wonder if you could use the LSC and HSC settings to basically replicate the feel of the IVA or IRT systems.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

How many people use compression settings?

I weigh 150, have my PSI about 63, run 3 clicks of rebound and the thing is spot on. Everyone now and then I dial in a bit of HBO, but I like it linear.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> How many people use compression settings?
> 
> I weigh 150, have my PSI about 63, run 3 clicks of rebound and the thing is spot on. Everyone now and then I dial in a bit of HBO, but I like it linear.


I weigh 205 and without the IRT, I run 60 PSI with 3 clicks of rebound, 2 clicks of HSC, 2 clicks of LSC and 2 clicks of HBO. The Mattoc is on a 26" Turner 5-spot with a 66 head angle and 72 seat angle. The fork is very linear and never feels like it runs of travel.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> How many people use compression settings?
> 
> I weigh 150, have my PSI about 63, run 3 clicks of rebound and the thing is spot on. Everyone now and then I dial in a bit of HBO, but I like it linear.


I weight 185, have 65psi in spring, maximum HBO (I do weird mistakes sometimes), 3 clicks of HSC (from open), LSC open but I'm experimenting with it. Now, when temperature is about 10°C I run it with 1 click from fastest rebound, during summer 2-3 clicks from fastest. I use motorex 5wt oil in damper which is a bit thicker than stock.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I wish pump gauges were more accurate. I'm 155, 73psi, 3 click hsc, 3 clicks lsc, 1 click hbo, 3 clicks rebound. All from full open. I think my pump reads higher than actual pressure though. Still breaking in the fork though, so settings subject to change.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I wish pump gauges were more accurate. I'm 155, 73psi, 3 click hsc, 3 clicks lsc, 1 click hbo, 3 clicks rebound. All from full open. I think my pump reads higher than actual pressure though. Still breaking in the fork though, so settings subject to change.


I actually have three pumps that I use and they all actually give me the same exact result. I was always in the camp that all shock pumps vary but honestly, my experience is telling me otherwise.

I do think that forks vary, people's preferences vary and the geometry of the bikes vary. My bike is slack and most of my weight is actually on the back side of the bike. For example, Turner always recommends your weight in PSI minus 30 for shock pressure. I have generally run 10 PSI above my weight to achieve the same sag and feel. I have always put this down to the geometry of the bike. This setting works with a 160 mm fork up front. When I drop to a 140, I am closer to what Turner recommends.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I actually have three pumps that I use and they all actually give me the same exact result. I was always in the camp that all shock pumps vary but honestly, my experience is telling me otherwise.
> 
> I do think that forks vary, people's preferences vary and the geometry of the bikes vary. My bike is slack and most of my weight is actually on the back side of the bike. For example, Turner always recommends your weight in PSI minus 30 for shock pressure. I have generally run 10 PSI above my weight to achieve the same sag and feel. I have always put this down to the geometry of the bike. This setting works with a 160 mm fork up front. When I drop to a 140, I am closer to what Turner recommends.


Maybe just my pump is off. I get significant differences between my pump and my buddies pumps. I can never compare spring settings with others because of it. Maybe it's time for a new one.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

My old Fox pump reads 25% lower than my new RS pump. You can't trust anything now


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> My old Fox pump reads 25% lower than my new RS pump. You can't trust anything now


Maybe I just got lucky pumps! And thinking about it, I have to car tire gauges that are 10 PSI different!

I also just installed the IRT system and it does improve the fork . All the compression adjustments have more of an impact and the fork rides even higher and lets you go even faster in the rough stuff. I used a 50/100 setup and may drop down to 50/80 and add a click of HSC and HBO back.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Maybe I just got lucky pumps! And thinking about it, I have to car tire gauges that are 10 PSI different!
> 
> I also just installed the IRT system and it does improve the fork . All the compression adjustments have more of an impact and the fork rides even higher and lets you go even faster in the rough stuff. I used a 50/100 setup and may drop down to 50/80 and add a click of HSC and HBO back.


Glad you picked up the IRT. When you have the fork tuned to what feels good, do you notice any difficulty achieving full travel with the addition of the IRT?

My fork is at Manitou right now for CSA replacement for a creaky creaky crown and they'll put on the new air piston while its there.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Glad you picked up the IRT. When you have the fork tuned to what feels good, do you notice any difficulty achieving full travel with the addition of the IRT?
> 
> My fork is at Manitou right now for CSA replacement for a creaky creaky crown and they'll put on the new air piston while its there.


I was worried about the crown creaking. Both my minutes developed creaking as well. I used green loctite on my Mattoc and my wife's marvel before their first rides this time to try to prevent it. We will see if it works I guess.

I'm curious about IRT. I will probably end up picking one up, just because I like messing with my suspension.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

IntenseMack10 said:


> Glad you picked up the IRT. When you have the fork tuned to what feels good, do you notice any difficulty achieving full travel with the addition of the IRT?
> 
> My fork is at Manitou right now for CSA replacement for a creaky creaky crown and they'll put on the new air piston while its there.


The funny thing is that I did a complete tear down when I installed the IRT. I was pushing down on the rebound shaft and noticed lots of resistance. When I put the fork back together, without air, I noticed I was only getting 140 mm travel. I have never had trouble getting 150-155mm of travel in the past so I was surprised. I initially thought about the air side but that looked perfect. I have the new air piston that just uses grease, so it was in great shape. So, there had to be something going on with the damper.

When I got the fork a year ago, I removed about 5 mL out of the damper and have not thought about it since. But since there was resistance on the damper side, I wanted to check the damper again and when I started loosening the damper, lots of oil started bubbling out. I may have had close to 10 mLs of extra out in the damper side. In my mind, it could have only come from one place - the bath oil. I did not ride much in the heart of winter and had the bike stored up side down and wonder if that contributed in any way. I also use 15 mL per side but went to the 7 mL per side for this rebuild. I would suggest that people check their oil levels every 6-9 months.

With the IRT set at 50/100 and with LSC, HSC and HBO all to the minimum settings, I got ~155mm on a good size jump with some rocks on the bottom. With my old setting of 2 clicks of HSC, 2 clicks of LSC and 1-2 clicks of HBO resulted in only 130 mm of travel. I will drop the IRT to 90 and may go to 80 and add a click or two of dampening so see how I like it.

One negative with the IRT is that it does not come with a valve cap. Call me petty but honestly, they could not include a nice valve cap?


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> The funny thing is that I did a complete tear down when I installed the IRT. I was pushing down on the rebound shaft and noticed lots of resistance. When I put the fork back together, without air, I noticed I was only getting 140 mm travel. I have never had trouble getting 150-155mm of travel in the past so I was surprised. I initially thought about the air side but that looked perfect. I have the new air piston that just uses grease, so it was in great shape. So, there had to be something going on with the damper.
> 
> When I got the fork a year ago, I removed about 5 mL out of the damper and have not thought about it since. But since there was resistance on the damper side, I wanted to check the damper again and when I started loosening the damper, lots of oil started bubbling out. I may have had close to 10 mLs of extra out in the damper side. In my mind, it could have only come from one place - the bath oil. I did not ride much in the heart of winter and had the bike stored up side down and wonder if that contributed in any way. I also use 15 mL per side but went to the 7 mL per side for this rebuild. I would suggest that people check their oil levels every 6-9 months.
> 
> ...


Very interesting stuff.

I did a tear down on mine when installing my IRT as well, I mean any excuse, right?! I do wonder if storing it upside down was the issue. But I think you're correct in that extra couldn't come from anywhere else.

So, based on your experience it does indeed sound like achieving full travel becomes more difficult.

I had talked to Zac Smith briefly and he said baseline pressure recommendation is exactly what you had: for the IRT to be double whatever your main spring is. But that just had too negative of an effect on travel achieved for me. I think I'm at 50/75 now.

Yeah I hear ya on the air cap. Mine did come with a cap that looks like one for the schrader on a shock. But the Dorado IRT has a really nice looking cap that's flat and covers the whole area. I might see if they can send me an extra one of those.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> I was worried about the crown creaking. Both my minutes developed creaking as well. I used green loctite on my Mattoc and my wife's marvel before their first rides this time to try to prevent it. We will see if it works I guess.
> 
> I'm curious about IRT. I will probably end up picking one up, just because I like messing with my suspension.


My experience has been opposite, my Minute Pro has never developed a creak, and I feel like I have exceeded its intended use, but my Mattoc developed a creak after a year of heavy riding of park/shuttle. But manitou replaced the CSU and the damper because they discovered it was developing a leak. I like their CS so much I went out and bought the Mcleod to match with the Mattoc bike.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Silly question...

Can this fork be run at 120mm?
Trail-riding, not DJ.

Thanks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Warp said:


> Silly question...
> 
> Can this fork be run at 120mm?
> Trail-riding, not DJ.
> ...


You can lower it to any height, but would need to find extra spacers as only 3 come with the fork. One thing to note is that each spacer added adds a small amount of volume to the negative chamber, so it will become slightly more linear the farther you lower it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Warp said:


> Silly question...
> 
> Can this fork be run at 120mm?
> Trail-riding, not DJ.
> ...


If you want to do it temporarily then hook on a pump, hold it at 1 20mm and remove the pump. It'll stay there.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Warp said:


> Silly question...
> 
> Can this fork be run at 120mm?
> Trail-riding, not DJ.
> ...


Yup, 120mm would b fine. Just lowers the ride height. Might be worth having the irt volume adjustment also to give better ramp up though.
All you'd need is some of the travel spacer clips n fit them to the air spring.
If running 26in wheels there are 2setup options for 120mm:
26: shorter damper HBO, 5spacers on the negaitve side,and no spacer under bottom out bumper.
27.5: longer HBO, 4spacers on negative side, and spacer under bottom out bumper.

27.5 setup has a 10mm higher a2c.

Sent from my Redmi 3 using Tapatalk


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> When I got the fork a year ago, I removed about 5 mL out of the damper and have not thought about it since. But since there was resistance on the damper side, I wanted to check the damper again and when I started loosening the damper, lots of oil started bubbling out. I may have had close to 10 mLs of extra out in the damper side. *In my mind, it could have only come from one place - the bath oil.* I did not ride much in the heart of winter and had the bike stored up side down and wonder if that contributed in any way. I also use 15 mL per side but went to the 7 mL per side for this rebuild. I would suggest that people check their oil levels every 6-9 months.


Correct. This has happened to me several times. Fork performance is instantly restored when you dump the damper oil and refill with fresh to the correct height.

BTW I'm not sure if it was commented on previously, but despite all my fancy tools, I find it is easiest to set the damper oil height by measuring from the top and then moving the o-ring on the stanchion to that height. Then you just add slowly and eyeball it. Fast and easy.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Correct. This has happened to me several times. Fork performance is instantly restored when you dump the damper oil and refill with fresh to the correct height.
> 
> BTW I'm not sure if it was commented on previously, but despite all my fancy tools, I find it is easiest to set the damper oil height by measuring from the top and then moving the o-ring on the stanchion to that height. Then you just add slowly and eyeball it. Fast and easy.


What is odd is that for me, it just happened. One day it was fine, the other day it was mixed in. Very odd and as you said, just resetting the oil was easy enough.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Can anybody suggest a good source for motorex supergliss in the US? Or an alternative splash oil you're happy with 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

croakies said:


> Can anybody suggest a good source for motorex supergliss in the US? Or an alternative splash oil you're happy with
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Polaris - That's where I get branded Motorex fork oil.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

pdxmark said:


> Polaris - That's where I get branded Motorex fork oil.


Closest Polaris dealer is a bit far for me but will give that a try, Thanks! Hoping there is an online source but am only finding it on German sites

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

croakies said:


> Closest Polaris dealer is a bit far for me but will give that a try, Thanks! Hoping there is an online source but am only finding it on German sites
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Try e-bay:

Motorex Racing Fork Oil 2 5W 1 L | eBay


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> What is odd is that for me, it just happened. One day it was fine, the other day it was mixed in. Very odd and as you said, just resetting the oil was easy enough.


Same experience here. It's happened twice, and in one instance I was riding a lot on vacation and it was literally fine one day, normal travel and feel, then extremely stiff and limited travel the next.

To me the only place the bath oil could possibly get into the damper is through the rebound seal head, at the foot of the damper-side leg. But it's odd because the damper is nearly full, while the bath oil is just splashing around. It does not seem likely to migrate from that perspective.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Oil migration seems to be dependent on the type and volumes of oil use. I kept a very close eye on my previous black Mattoc and never had any. Even running it shuttling and gondola riding for a day.
I was running Supergliss in the lowers. As well as keeping an eye on full travel and oil heights/volumes at service the Supergliss and damper oil are very different colours and become obvious when mixed.

I ran 15cc initially then 7cc per side.

I was also running 26" which puts the stanchions 10mm further into the lowers. 27" mode moves the b/o position 10mm higher which gives more room for bath oil and less pressure will build in the lowers at full compression.

I've got a new red Mattoc to fit later today.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

As a Norwegian, I could use a simple diagram for exact understanding of the different oils and places you all talk about. And the migration directions so I can inspect my own fork. Don't have any IRT, just the top cap on mine - bought from Wiggle in the UK. Anybody have that?

Have just worked on mine Mattoc and adjusted it from 160 mm 26" to 150 mm 27,5". tried it twice. Seems ok, but haven't really got the feeling of things are done properly. Seems a bit slower (used 5 wt oil) and will try a bit faster rebound. Had so much fork oil that I wanted to use...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bjornwattne said:


> As a Norwegian, I could use a simple diagram for exact understanding of the different oils and places you all talk about. And the migration directions so I can inspect my own fork. Don't have any IRT, just the top cap on mine - bought from Wiggle in the UK. Anybody have that?
> 
> Have just worked on mine Mattoc and adjusted it from 160 mm 26" to 150 mm 27,5". tried it twice. Seems ok, but haven't really got the feeling of things are done properly. Seems a bit slower (used 5 wt oil) and will try a bit faster rebound. Had so much fork oil that I wanted to use...


Well, the service video has this information:






and this site has good information as well (if you can't use the video)

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

general question: i have a line on a used mattoc with about 50 hrs. owner will install updated piston and IRT and change fluids before shipping. what effect does the IRT have on the fork? i have read that it makes it more progressive, which means what exactly? that the compression ramps up more in the mid stroke?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> general question: i have a line on a used mattoc with about 50 hrs. owner will install updated piston and IRT and change fluids before shipping. what effect does the IRT have on the fork? i have read that it makes it more progressive, which means what exactly? that the compression ramps up more in the mid stroke?


The irt gives you a fully tunable second stage to the air spring. It can be set to behave almost exactly like stock or out can give a a really strong mid stroke.

Well worth having. I've ridden Mattoc forks side by side with and without. It's very noticeable.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

is there a certain type of riding or terrain that this is desirable? i am an intermediate rider not doing big jumps but riding steep technical rocky terrain


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Coleman22 said:


> is there a certain type of riding or terrain that this is desirable? i am an intermediate rider not doing big jumps but riding steep technical rocky terrain


Nope, Its good for everyone all riding. On you steeps you'll notice it'll ride higher in the travel preserving the geo of your frame more. But its so tunable (infinitely so.......haha) that as Dougal says you can make it behave anyway you want.

Search back some pages in this thread for further explanation on the IRT's from myself and others for more info.

For how inexpensive it is and how easy to install its a no brainer. Just get one.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

well i'm getting this fork for 400 IRT installed, seems hard to beat.


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## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

Coleman22 said:


> well i'm getting this fork for 400 IRT installed, seems hard to beat.


Even better!!


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

if the fork has been maintained well, how many hours till these forks need a full rebuild...the one i'm buying has 40-50 hrs and several fluid changes under its belt.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Coleman22 said:


> if the fork has been maintained well, how many hours till these forks need a full rebuild...the one i'm buying has 40-50 hrs and several fluid changes under its belt.


Honestly, I find the bath oil tends to stay in the lowers. With the new air piston that just uses slick honey and no oil, I am thinking 4-5 months of riding (3x week) is not out of the question. Honestly, at 40-50 hours, the fork is just broken in.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So there is a new advertisement for the Mattoc 2 that states it has the new piston, IVA as standard and the tool based hex-lock system. Otherwise, looks similar to the original Mattoc.

Also, anybody read german? Google translate does not give me a complete idea of what this guy did, but I think he has created a little knob to make the Mattoc be able to drop and extend travel with a push of a button. Basically, a reverse IT system.

Manitou Mattoc "Dorradoeffektkappe" Sammelbestellfred | MTB-News.de


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

I can read and translate later today. Keep in touch.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> Also, anybody read german? Google translate does not give me a complete idea of what this guy did, but I think he has created a little knob to make the Mattoc be able to drop and extend travel with a push of a button. Basically, a reverse IT system.
> Manitou Mattoc "Dorradoeffektkappe" Sammelbestellfred | MTB-News.de


Bang on.
It's a sealed threaded knob that presses the valve in till the point where the chambers equalize so it can be used to set the travel height.
On it's own I'd say it would be a bit limited due to the fact you'd want a higher pressure at lower fork length.
BUT..... if you had that and the IRT, then you'd have an even more amazing fork.

I can't wait for someone to make a cable operated button for this with a handlebar remote! (would just run the cable up with the front brake hose!)

Hmm.... **runs to shed to start fettling!**


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> So there is a new advertisement for the Mattoc 2 that states it has the new piston, IVA as standard and the tool based hex-lock system. Otherwise, looks similar to the original Mattoc.
> 
> Also, anybody read german? Google translate does not give me a complete idea of what this guy did, but I think he has created a little knob to make the Mattoc be able to drop and extend travel with a push of a button. Basically, a reverse IT system.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc "Dorradoeffektkappe" Sammelbestellfred | MTB-News.de


I just received a new Mattoc as a warranty replacement (those guys are awesome). It came with the IVA and threaded axle and new piston. I happen to be a fan of the QR15 so I asked for it and that is on the way as well. The new axle looks cool though and there are docs on the Manitou site now.

I don't have the new little knob, but looks like a nifty thing to have around.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> So there is a new advertisement for the Mattoc 2 that states it has the new piston, IVA as standard and the tool based hex-lock system. Otherwise, looks similar to the original Mattoc.
> 
> Also, anybody read german? Google translate does not give me a complete idea of what this guy did, but I think he has created a little knob to make the Mattoc be able to drop and extend travel with a push of a button. Basically, a reverse IT system.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc "Dorradoeffektkappe" Sammelbestellfred | MTB-News.de


You attach the "Dorrado Effect Cap" to the schrader valve, at the bottom of you hill, you screw the lower knurled knob until you hear the air-pressure equalize, then push the fork down to the travel wanted, unscrew valve. At the top, screw in, pull fork apart, close screw/valve. A few simple steps to adjust fork travel.

If you want one, put your name in the list, by quoting the above post. Cost is 30 Euros, plus VAT and postage.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks Riiz, Seems kinda interesting and a really neat mod to the fork. Aresab, sorry to hear about your first fork but it looks like Manitou is taking care of you. 

I will keep my Mattoc for a while and it is nice to know that for the mosts part, my fork is still current. I would love it if they could offer custom compression units and some guidance to modify the shim stack, but I feel that will come from these boards! 

With that said, I also think that Manitou needs to make a single crown fork with the 36" stanchions from the Dorado.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> With that said, I also think that Manitou needs to make a single crown fork with the 36" stanchions from the Dorado.


36" stanchions may be a bit on the unwieldy side for MTB's :eekster:

I agree though, Manitou could do with having a burlier fork to compete with the Fox 36 and Lyrik etc.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Kiwiplague said:


> 36" stanchions may be a bit on the unwieldy side for MTB's :eekster:
> 
> I agree though, Manitou could do with having a burlier fork to compete with the Fox 36 and Lyrik etc.


They could just improve the crown and bridge to have more volume and material, which could stiffen up things dramatically.

The suntour auron is stiffer than most other forks even with more than her 34mm stanchions. Same goes to Bos deville and X Fusion trace with uni crown whereas the other forks of x fusion even flex ore than the mattoc.

I´ve been on a freeride track ysterday with very large and steep burms. Here with my 92 kilo grams riderweigth in gear a really could feel the disturbing flex. That is the only issue with my mattoc that I have. Otherwise I really love it with the stiffer shimstack from Manitou for heavier riders and the IRT.
I run my fork relatively stiff. So I use 150 of 170 mm at maximum most of the time. But yesterday took a jump to short and landet in rising landing. -> 166mm travel.

Setup: main 58 PSI, IRT 130 PSI, HSC 2 from open, LSC open, HBO open
PErhaps I´ll just drop to 53/ 120 but not less. I like to have a fork with initial soft stroke but very good support for braking on steep tracks and aggressive steep berms.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Kiwiplague said:


> 36" stanchions may be a bit on the unwieldy side for MTB's :eekster:
> 
> I agree though, Manitou could do with having a burlier fork to compete with the Fox 36 and Lyrik etc.


Eek, I can't believe I did that.

But yes, I think a 36mm SC fork with the same internals as the Mattoc would sell better. Not sure if it would make a better fork or not.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

*Thoughts on Mattoc spaced down to 120mm for aggressive XC*

Guys, what are your thoughts of a Mattoc 650b spaced down to 120mm for use on an aggressive XC Hardtail or short travel dually, like a Rocky Mountain Thunderbolt (120mm-130mm fork travel)?

I am lightweight (130lbs)

From reading this thread there seems to be two approaches to reducing travel: using the aftermarket travel reducers where more are needed to get to 120mm, or temporary travel adjust by setting height with a pump attached.

I currently am on a Marvel Pro 120mm and am drawn to the adjustability an plushness that everyone talks about on the Mattoc.

Thanks.. I am on my 10th Manitou btw. I've been a fan since the Manitou 2


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Personally, I would keep using the Marvel Pro. You can tune the shim stack in it, which is probably overdamped for a 130 pound rider, which will also be true for a Mattoc.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

*Stanchions*



Vespasianus said:


> Thanks Riiz, Seems kinda interesting and a really neat mod to the fork. Aresab, sorry to hear about your first fork but it looks like Manitou is taking care of you.
> 
> I will keep my Mattoc for a while and it is nice to know that for the mosts part, my fork is still current. I would love it if they could offer custom compression units and some guidance to modify the shim stack, but I feel that will come from these boards!
> 
> With that said, I also think that Manitou needs to make a single crown fork with the 36" stanchions from the Dorado.


Actually

Actually there Is no need dir Blogger stanchions. 
Pool at a deville, mrp stage, ö öhlins rxf or trance unicrown and then compare them to the mattoc. A far burlier crown ans Mo Re volume in the bridgewould Do the job. A suntour auron Is stiffer than the 35 offerings of other competitors. It' s just about the other details. The back arch of the mattoc is thin rather 2 dimensional. ;-) Zahn having real volume. Themen crown Is to narrow coming from the steerer to the stanchions. Espiccially this part Is My greatest issue Witz an otherwisegreat irt fork ;-)


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

bansaiman said:


> Actually
> 
> Actually there Is no need dir Blogger stanchions.
> Pool at a deville, mrp stage, ö öhlins rxf or trance unicrown and then compare them to the mattoc. A far burlier crown ans Mo Re volume in the bridgewould Do the job. A suntour auron Is stiffer than the 35 offerings of other competitors. It' s just about the other details. The back arch of the mattoc is thin rather 2 dimensional. ;-) Zahn having real volume. Themen crown Is to narrow coming from the steerer to the stanchions. Espiccially this part Is My greatest issue Witz an otherwisegreat irt fork ;-)


I think your Google translate has stopped working... Or you may be drunk


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Kiwiplague said:


> I think your Google translate has stopped working... Or you may be drunk


It is the stupid auto correct from my smart phone, which of course tries to use german terms ;-)

Basic message: the bigger stanchions are not that important for a stiffer fork. With other factors you can archieve even more. Crown and arch are the most important areas of a single crown fork.and material. ;-)


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

bansaiman said:


> It is the stupid auto correct from my smart phone, which of course tries to use german terms ;-)
> 
> Basic message: the bigger stanchions are not that important for a stiffer fork. With other factors you can archieve even more. Crown and arch are the most important areas of a single crown fork.and material. ;-)


Had a feeling that's what you meant to say lol.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

After succesfully rebuilt my Mattoc from 160 mm 26" to 150 mm 27,5", I still measure 160 mm of inner leg/stanchion at the lowest point (innside).

The fork works perfect, but I was expecting a certain shortening... (?)

Had a bit thicker oir (5 wt vs. 2.5 wt) and can't tell much difference. Use now rebound two cliks from minimum which gives me a fast rebound.

Very easy to work with! I'm only curious about the stanchion visible length. This is discussed before, but I couldn't find it...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bjornwattne said:


> After succesfully rebuilt my Mattoc from 160 mm 26" to 150 mm 27,5", I still measure 160 mm of inner leg/stanchion at the lowest point (innside).
> 
> The fork works perfect, but I was expecting a certain shortening... (?)
> 
> ...


Switching to 27.5 make for 10mm of extra stanchion. The spacer before the bottom out bumper is the cause. It's needed to keep the tire from contacting the frame at full compression and the fork now bottom 10mm short of the crown.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

Thanks! That did answer my question in an easy and understandable way!


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Just got my mattoc and have a few questions about general function. It's got IRT installed, I read that I need to pump up IRT chamber first then main chamber. When I go to set the sag should I let out all of the air that's currently in it or just adjust higher or lower PSI from where it currently is set? And do I still need to set the IRT first when setting up sag?

Also read I can run 30-35% sag on main chamber and the adjust IRT for more mod support, the manual gives me a 60psi main and 100psi IRT for my weight range which is about 165 geared up. Should I follow that to start and adjust from there?


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

What does it mean when a small amount of oil seeps from the air valves (both main and IRT) after taking off the shock pump?

Is that normal?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

If the new piston is installed, you should not see any oil. There should only be oil in the air side. You should be able to run 30-35% sag and set the IRT to give a stronger mid and end stroke without question.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

So what does it mean if there is very slight amount of oil when removing shock pump? I asked the man who previously owned and maintained it and my regular shop mechanic and they both said its not a problem.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

I decided to let out all the air from IRT and main air spring and compress fork as much as possible. I ended up with only 4.5 " of travel. 

That coupled with the oil coming out of the air valve would mean?


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> I decided to let out all the air from IRT and main air spring and compress fork as much as possible. I ended up with only 4.5 " of travel.
> 
> That coupled with the oil coming out of the air valve would mean?


You bought this used? It might have oil in the main air chamber that is causing your problems. If this was bought used, I woudl recommend doing a rebuild:

https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Yes bought used. He put 40-50 hrs and just installed the IRT, updated piston and changed fluids before shipping to me. 

Is there a way of removing the oil without doing a full rebuild? Not sure I need to rebuild it but something may have happened when he serviced it before shipping. 

I would think that I could compress the fork fully by hand (not attached to bike) with no air in it right?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Coleman22 said:


> Yes bought used. He put 40-50 hrs and just installed the IRT, updated piston and changed fluids before shipping to me.
> 
> Is there a way of removing the oil without doing a full rebuild? Not sure I need to rebuild it but something may have happened when he serviced it before shipping.
> 
> I would think that I could compress the fork fully by hand (not attached to bike) with no air in it right?


With no air, if you compress the fork, you will get close to full travel (~ 5mm less). If the fork is bottoming out at 120 mm (and is set at 160), you might have way too much oil in the damper side or too much oil in the air side.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Ok. How much oil am I supposed to have in the damper side and air side? And he did mention using 20w oil, not sure if that's affecting it.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

I would check damper oil height using guide posted on previous page. I had the same issue (damper ingesting oil) when I used fox gold 20wt 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

If the damper is ingesting oil, what's the remedy there?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> I decided to let out all the air from IRT and main air spring and compress fork as much as possible. I ended up with only 4.5 " of travel.
> 
> That coupled with the oil coming out of the air valve would mean?


With the air chamber vented (shock pump screwed on to connect positive and negative chambers) it takes about 50kg to fully compress the fork. So that's about normal.

If the fork was converted from oil to grease, then there will be oil coming out of the air cap for a while after. It's a long tube that will take a while to drain out.

With 7cc of oil in each lower leg you shouldn't have any oil ingress into the damper. I haven't had any oil migration in the forks I look after here. But lubricant type can have an influence so I can only really say that Supergliss is wiped off cleanly by the damper seal.


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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> If the damper is ingesting oil, what's the remedy there?


Where did he use 20wt oil? The bath oil should be mobil one synthetic motor oil. The damper oil should be 2.5 wt Motorex shock oil.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

I just asked him and he said he put 20wt in semi bath but now that IRT is in there's no 20wt used. He's using recommended oil for bath and damper. I'm going to take the fork to my mechanic tomorrow.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Coleman22 said:


> I just asked him and he said he put 20wt in semi bath but now that IRT is in there's no 20wt used. He's using recommended oil for bath and damper. I'm going to take the fork to my mechanic tomorrow.


Ok, that is odd. If anything the IRT requires even more maintenance as it is another part with a moving piston. Use just 7mL per side of mobil 1 motor oil. Honestly, it is the best thing. No need to get fancy or spend any more money.

As for the ingesting of bath oil into the damper, I can't really say why it happened. As others mentioned here, when it does, and you open the top cap, the thing will hiss and bubble oil like the whole thing is under huge pressure. I am at a loss at what could be causing that.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Has anyone had issues with the lowers becoming pressurized resulting in a harsh ride?

I rebuilt my mattoc and few weeks ago and it has felt amazing since then. This weekend, it rode very harsh in the 2nd half of its travel and I was not using the amount of travel i typically did.

Last night, I took it apart and everything seemed fine...damper oil level was spot on, no oil in the negative air spring chamber.

I put it back together and everything seems great again. My only guess is that the last time I worked on it, it was about 50 degrees, and this weekend it was 80 degrees...the expansion of air caused the lowers to become pressurized?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> Has anyone had issues with the lowers becoming pressurized resulting in a harsh ride?
> 
> I rebuilt my mattoc and few weeks ago and it has felt amazing since then. This weekend, it rode very harsh in the 2nd half of its travel and I was not using the amount of travel i typically did.
> 
> ...


I do wonder if there is something to that. This seems to be an issue with all current forks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Has anyone had issues with the lowers becoming pressurized resulting in a harsh ride?
> 
> I rebuilt my mattoc and few weeks ago and it has felt amazing since then. This weekend, it rode very harsh in the 2nd half of its travel and I was not using the amount of travel i typically did.
> 
> ...


Not becoming pressurised as such. But changes in elevation and weather will have an effect. It's a small trapped volume.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm seeing differing amounts of semi-bath volumes, some say 15CCs and others 7 CCs. Manitou originally said 15 now says 7 but I though I saw them pump 15 in the video. I think 7 is too little and may need to service much earlier, what's the consensus?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aresab said:


> I'm seeing differing amounts of semi-bath volumes, some say 15CCs and others 7 CCs. Manitou originally said 15 now says 7 but I though I saw them pump 15 in the video. I think 7 is too little and may need to service much earlier, what's the consensus?


Officially now 7cc. But try it and see what you want to do.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

On my last 2 services I used 15, did not see a problem. Wonder why they changed it? Dougal since you work on quite a bit of forks, what do you use? Think there is any harm in leaving it at 15? Odd the pike started out at 5 and then double it to 10.
Thank you!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aresab said:


> On my last 2 services I used 15, did not see a problem. Wonder why they changed it? Dougal since you work on quite a bit of forks, what do you use? Think there is any harm in leaving it at 15? Odd the pike started out at 5 and then double it to 10.
> Thank you!


I used 15 initially then reduced to 7cc in my own Mattoc. I didn't have any issues with oil migration at either volume.

I did service a Mattoc last week which had lost all it's bath oil. No sign of that 7cc getting out the seals but the fork had been ridden hard 2-3 times a week for 6 months since the prior service.
So I've recommended that guy changes bath oil every 2 months.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

so i had my mechanic look at my mattoc and he confirmed that there was way too much oil in the damper side and he also noted improper pressurization...not sure what that means about the pressurization?

also, are these forks more fiddly than some others out there or can i expect some reasonable level of reliability for a good stretch of time once setup properly?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Coleman22 said:


> so i had my mechanic look at my mattoc and he confirmed that there was way too much oil in the damper side and he also noted improper pressurization...not sure what that means about the pressurization?
> 
> also, are these forks more fiddly than some others out there or can i expect some reasonable level of reliability for a good stretch of time once setup properly?


The excess oil is most likely the root cause of your issue. Once the fork is set correctly, it should be very reliable for a good period of time. I find the bath oil stays where it is supposed to and the seals do a very good job keeping things out.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Had 8 rides with the IRT installed. 27.5" set at 150mm. Without IRT had been running 70-73psi and it felt great, did dive a bit so had LSC at 4 and HSC at 2 HBO at 2. My weight is 195lbs.

With IRT, kept main 70psi and IRT at 95 psi. Loved the support but could only get about 3/4 travel. Found the best setting to be 65 psi main and 80 psi IRT, LSC 2 HSC 1. 

Seems to be the sweet spot, offers that last bit of fine tuning.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

sherwin24 said:


> Had 8 rides with the IRT installed. 27.5" set at 150mm. Without IRT had been running 70-73psi and it felt great, did dive a bit so had LSC at 4 and HSC at 2 HBO at 2. My weight is 195lbs.
> 
> With IRT, kept main 70psi and IRT at 95 psi. Loved the support but could only get about 3/4 travel. Found the best setting to be 65 psi main and 80 psi IRT, LSC 2 HSC 1.
> 
> Seems to be the sweet spot, offers that last bit of fine tuning.


I am still at 50/90 and can use 150mm of travel (out of 160). I find at this setting, I can't run any LSC or HSC or BO or the fork feels a little harsh. It is almost as if the IRT exaggerates all the compression settings. I may drop my IRT down some more and see if I can add some compression back -but it feels really good at this setting!


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

I know its not quite apples to apples but i certainly backed off the compression settings (both HSC and TPC+) once i put my IRT into my Dorado. I felt it could handle both larger hits and sustained high speed hits better while being more supple thanks to the better mid stroke support. 

Based on how much i love my dorado i just ordered a pair of Mattocs for the trail bike to swap out some totally insipid fox 34s. Ill grab an IRT kit for it (or maybe an IVA considering theyre about 40 AUD on chain reaction atm...) once i have it broken in. 

Its stock from bike-discount.de so i have no idea how old the stock is. I've read a lot of the content here which is great but does anyone have a dot list of stuff i should have a look at first off? 

And more specifically, i've orderd 27.5 forks but will run them with 26" wheels for now. I assume i am ok to remove the bottom spacer to get a better A2C height for now or do i have to wear the bottom spacer in the 27.5 fork no matter what?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shmity said:


> I know its not quite apples to apples but i certainly backed off the compression settings (both HSC and TPC+) once i put my IRT into my Dorado. I felt it could handle both larger hits and sustained high speed hits better while being more supple thanks to the better mid stroke support.
> 
> Based on how much i love my dorado i just ordered a pair of Mattocs for the trail bike to swap out some totally insipid fox 34s. Ill grab an IRT kit for it (or maybe an IVA considering theyre about 40 AUD on chain reaction atm...) once i have it broken in.
> 
> ...


I would also order the service kit as well as it makes the service very easy. With that said, it is always a good idea to check the level of bath oil and damper oil level.

I don't think you will have a problem removing the bottom spacer to lower the AC but you will need to change the HBO piece on the rebound shaft.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I will try going lower in the main and upping the IRT a bit. I was a bit worried that it might start to spike having a rather drastic difference. It makes sense that lowering the compression settings actually allows the IRT to handle the support more, in a smooth yet progressive manner. Thanks guys.


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## willshillo (Apr 27, 2016)

hey guys . i have a mattoc pro and am having an issue with the fork being too stiff..i have the air spring set to my weight and still feels really stiff in the initial part of the fork.. can i try releasing the air and starting again ?any ideas would be great
cheers


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

willshillo said:


> hey guys . i have a mattoc pro and am having an issue with the fork being too stiff..i have the air spring set to my weight and still feels really stiff in the initial part of the fork.. can i try releasing the air and starting again ?any ideas would be great
> cheers


You may only be filling one air chamber. Make sure you have a good shock pump. Dump all the air out of the fork and make sure the fork can compress to near full travel without any air. If that is OK, attach the pump and pump up to say 60-70 PSI. Keep the pump attached and pump the fork up and down, it should feel very soggy and soft. If not, the pump is not putting air correctly in both chambers.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

As a side note:

https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/forks-suspension/manitou-mattoc-pro-review.html

Not a bad review. A couple of things that I notice is that the MC2 adjusters need to be renamed and new information on the Manitou web-site provided with the fork. Also, these guys mentioned that it is not as plush initially as a pike, which actually will get better in time as the fork breaks in.

Overall, a very positive review.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

willshillo said:


> hey guys . i have a mattoc pro and am having an issue with the fork being too stiff..i have the air spring set to my weight and still feels really stiff in the initial part of the fork.. can i try releasing the air and starting again ?any ideas would be great
> cheers


What is your weight and air pressure? Also keep in mind shock pumps can easily be 5psi out or more. The pressure that feels right is what matters.


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## countrygravy (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm actually having the same issue with the air spring. I just installed the updated air piston, but still whenever I compress my fork it is super-stiff most noticeably in the initial stroke and pretty much all the way through. For reference this happens even at 40 PSI and I weight ~175 lb in riding gear.

I've tried most every thing listed online (pump is good, release air and re-pumped, made sure no vacuum in lowers) 

The weird thing is when I re-installed the lowers, the fork felt amazing for the first compression...then firmed right up...

I'm thinking at this point I have some sort of air leak at the connection between the air spring and the lowers? Not sure of much else save trying to get the thing replaced under warranty, which is 1+ years now :S


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

countrygravy said:


> I'm actually having the same issue with the air spring. I just installed the updated air piston, but still whenever I compress my fork it is super-stiff most noticeably in the initial stroke and pretty much all the way through. For reference this happens even at 40 PSI and I weight ~175 lb in riding gear.
> 
> I've tried most every thing listed online (pump is good, release air and re-pumped, made sure no vacuum in lowers)
> 
> ...


How well did you grease the piston when you installed it? They take a bit of greasing and sliding on initial install to get them feeling right. Make sure you slide the air piston all the way up and down by hand before closing the caps to check the resistance.


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## willshillo (Apr 27, 2016)

hey . yeah i dunno what to do..im kinda over it. thinking of just getting rid of it and trying the new fox 36..my fork is still under a year old so I'm trying to return it as we speak.
good luck with your fork.
cheers


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

countrygravy said:


> I'm actually having the same issue with the air spring. I just installed the updated air piston, but still whenever I compress my fork it is super-stiff most noticeably in the initial stroke and pretty much all the way through. For reference this happens even at 40 PSI and I weight ~175 lb in riding gear.
> 
> I've tried most every thing listed online (pump is good, release air and re-pumped, made sure no vacuum in lowers)
> 
> ...


This mostly likely is the result of only having air in the positive chamber. You can actually crimp the shaft and prevent the poppet valve from working. IF you attach a pump and add aid and pump up and down, how does it feel?

As a side, if you call Manitou, they have great CS and may be able to help you ASAP.


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## countrygravy (Jan 13, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> This mostly likely is the result of only having air in the positive chamber. You can actually crimp the shaft and prevent the poppet valve from working. IF you attach a pump and add aid and pump up and down, how does it feel?
> 
> As a side, if you call Manitou, they have great CS and may be able to help you ASAP.


With about 60-70 PSI in the air chamber and the shock pump attached, the fork feels smooth and very mushy (which I believe means the poppet is working correctly).

As far as the grease application: I put a fair amount on the rings of the piston, but didn't do much in the way of sliding up and down and re-applying...thinking this could be the root cause? I don't want to take it out and re-grease so would I just drop a dollup on top and work it into the stanchions?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

countrygravy said:


> With about 60-70 PSI in the air chamber and the shock pump attached, the fork feels smooth and very mushy (which I believe means the poppet is working correctly).
> 
> As far as the grease application: I put a fair amount on the rings of the piston, but didn't do much in the way of sliding up and down and re-applying...thinking this could be the root cause? I don't want to take it out and re-grease so would I just drop a dollup on top and work it into the stanchions?


That is very odd. Did it have this problem before the piston was changed? Air it the lowers is a potential problem but if it is escaping from the air side, that should reduce the pressure in that leg, no?


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## countrygravy (Jan 13, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> That is very odd. Did it have this problem before the piston was changed? Air it the lowers is a potential problem but if it is escaping from the air side, that should reduce the pressure in that leg, no?


Yeah it was the same issue previously but I chalked it up to the oil migration issue with the previous air piston. I've replaced the damper oil to spec with the correct motorex weight and all that jazz. I can try to add some more mprep to the piston though...would I just add grease to the inside of the stanchion and spread it around with the air piston action?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

countrygravy said:


> Yeah it was the same issue previously but I chalked it up to the oil migration issue with the previous air piston. I've replaced the damper oil to spec with the correct motorex weight and all that jazz. I can try to add some more mprep to the piston though...would I just add grease to the inside of the stanchion and spread it around with the air piston action?


You could but I would contact manitou directly. Their CS is second to none and they should be able to help you.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

On MTB-News.de - Mountainbike News & Artikel

I see an advertisement for the "new Mattoc 2".

Haven't seen that before. If you click on it you land on the regular Mattoc page at the Manitou site.

EDIT: Here is the correct location, probalby wrong link in the advertisement:
https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/forks/mattoc-2-pro/

And a piece on bikerumor:
SOC16: Manitou sharpens the Mattoc 2, Machete forks, Sun Ringle adds Duroc 40 & 50 plus size wheels - Bikerumor

So basically the same fork, but now with updated airpiston, IVA and hexlock installed as standard it seems.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Couple tool questions for the mattoc/magnum...
- is the "cassette top cap tool" just a standard cassette tool?
- the "thin walled 8mm socket" is that just a standard thin walled socket or is there something special about it other than being thin walled?

I plan on picking up a Magnum Pro 27.5 in the near future here and will need to adjust the travel.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

CS645 said:


> On MTB-News.de - Mountainbike News & Artikel
> 
> I see an advertisement for the "new Mattoc 2".
> 
> ...


Great find! Swamped at work lately, so I hadn't seen any of this, but others may have.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

gregnash said:


> Couple tool questions for the mattoc/magnum...
> - is the "cassette top cap tool" just a standard cassette tool?
> - the "thin walled 8mm socket" is that just a standard thin walled socket or is there something special about it other than being thin walled?
> 
> I plan on picking up a Magnum Pro 27.5 in the near future here and will need to adjust the travel.


The cassette tool is to remove the compression rod (on the inside) the top cap uses a regular socket albeit a ground down one for better engagement (can be done with regular socket/wrench, but can lead to slipping and tool marks).
The thin 8mm walled socket looks like its regular, but I haven't seen many of them up close, so that's a bit of speculation from my side.

Also, I hope to pick up a Mattoc Pro soon (at last!  ), second hand, but in good condition and well looked after. A red one.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I havent needed any special tools for mine. I have 2 cassette tools, and one of them is deep-walled enough with a hole in the center to function how I need it to (Park). The other is too shallow to work.

To unthread the air spring rod, I use a 4mm allen that you can turn after pushing in the poppet valve.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

gregnash said:


> Couple tool questions for the mattoc/magnum...
> - is the "cassette top cap tool" just a standard cassette tool?
> - the "thin walled 8mm socket" is that just a standard thin walled socket or is there something special about it other than being thin walled?
> 
> I plan on picking up a Magnum Pro 27.5 in the near future here and will need to adjust the travel.


The cassette tool, is a Park Brand tool, that has been modified to slip over the air-shaft, and the 8mm Socket is a standard thin-walled socket. But buying the tool-kit is the easiest way of procuring the needed tools that will make the experience of maintaining or modifying the mattoc/magnum stress-free.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

riiz said:


> The cassette tool, is a Park Brand tool, that has been modified to slip over the air-shaft, and the 8mm Socket is a standard thin-walled socket. But buying the tool-kit is the easiest way of procuring the needed tools that will make the experience of maintaining or modifying the mattoc/magnum stress-free.


Ok I just looked around and cannot find in stock anywhere. I already have a 24mm socket from doing service to my RS Revy that works just fine. Thin walled socket should be fairly easy to find with the only other item being the Cassette tool, if a standard (longer) cassette tool will work I will just grab one as I don't have a cassette tool anyways.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Bummer, you're right! I bought mine here: Manitou Mattoc Tool Kit | Chain Reaction Cycles

and I respectfully disagree about the 8mm socket. I have a craftsman thin-wall 8mm and it was nowhere near small enough. Several people have commented that they simply used a grinder, but I just sent my money to CRC and I normally would suggest others do the same...


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Park FR-5 is the one you want I believe.

Even here out of stock: https://www.bike-components.de/de/Manitou/Mattoc-Service-Tool-Kit-p42333/ :/


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

ColinL said:


> Bummer, you're right! I bought mine here: Manitou Mattoc Tool Kit | Chain Reaction Cycles
> 
> and I respectfully disagree about the 8mm socket. I have a craftsman thin-wall 8mm and it was nowhere near small enough. Several people have commented that they simply used a grinder, but I just sent my money to CRC and I normally would suggest others do the same...


Are people using this to unthread the airspring assembly rod? Seriously, just use a 4mm allen inside of the bolt where the poppet pokes out of... for the cost of free.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

4 mm allen is OK for dismounting, 8 mm socket is better for tightening (without releasing air). My 8 mm socket is a home-grinded thinwall socket from an autoshop (typically used for spark plugs). Costs about $ 3. My Parktool FR5 does not have big enough hole to fit, so I had to cut off some material from a cheap casette tool. 24 mm socket is a nobrainer, I've had no issues with my standard socket. For worry-free work, I would recommend the expensive set. You really need to know what you're looking for.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> On MTB-News.de - Mountainbike News & Artikel
> 
> I see an advertisement for the "new Mattoc 2".
> 
> ...


The Mattoc 2 was a sea-otter update release.

It has the new bolt-up axle (Hexlock SL) and IVA spacer system is standard.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Couple tool questions for the mattoc/magnum...
> - is the "cassette top cap tool" just a standard cassette tool?
> - the "thin walled 8mm socket" is that just a standard thin walled socket or is there something special about it other than being thin walled?
> 
> I plan on picking up a Magnum Pro 27.5 in the near future here and will need to adjust the travel.


The top-cap tool is a 24mm 6 point socket modified to be chamferless.
The 8mm socket is an 8mm 6 point socket turned down to a very thin wall.
The Cassette tool is a modified park FR5.

We've got the kits here at Shockcraft (along with replacement 8mm sockets). Mattoc Tool Kit (Manitou)
Modified 8 mm Socket to fit Manitou Mattoc & Magnumb 2015 & Later

Prices shown are in $NZ and include our 15% sales tax. But the sales tax drops off for international sales.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

LaXCarp said:


> To unthread the air spring rod, I use a 4mm allen that you can turn after pushing in the poppet valve.


This is the easiest option and means no special tools required.
You don't want to torque it hard anyway.

You can also use a standard cassette tool with large ID hole.
But to do this you need to remove all travel spacers and compress the air piston completely to get it seated over the top of the poppet valve head and undo.
(Not a bad thing as it means you can't damage the shaft)


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ColinL said:


> Bummer, you're right! I bought mine here: Manitou Mattoc Tool Kit | Chain Reaction Cycles
> 
> and I respectfully disagree about the 8mm socket. I have a craftsman thin-wall 8mm and it was nowhere near small enough. Several people have commented that they simply used a grinder, but I just sent my money to CRC and I normally would suggest others do the same...


I ended up buying the kit solely because of the socket. I could not find an alternative anywhere.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

LaXCarp said:


> Are people using this to unthread the airspring assembly rod? Seriously, just use a 4mm allen inside of the bolt where the poppet pokes out of... for the cost of free.


Been there and done that. The socket makes it much easier.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

How big are the holes in peoples cassette tools? I have one that looks like itll fit, but can always drill it out of if i need to, but would rather work that out before i pull the fork apart...


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

shmity said:


> How big are the holes in peoples cassette tools? I have one that looks like itll fit, but can always drill it out of if i need to, but would rather work that out before i pull the fork apart...


My Park FR5 tool is 20mm inner diameter (approx) and it fits fine.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Somewhat related, is Manitou working on a dropper? https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Jack-Installation-Guide_4-Lang.pdf
Can't find any info on it, no announcements or leaked news whatsoever.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Stratus said:


> Somewhat related, is Manitou working on a dropper? https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Jack-Installation-Guide_4-Lang.pdf
> Can't find any info on it, no announcements or leaked news whatsoever.


Wow, great find! That does look like a dropper.

Also, there are lots of new support docs on the site as well.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Came across it by coincidence.








Looks promising. Nice thick stanchion, integrated/milled head.
https://reviews.mtbr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/haro-shift-lt-7-900x600.jpg


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow... holy hell! Great find dude. Makes me want to go back through all the different pics people have posted. Wonder if that was at the Manitou booth or the Haro booth?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Was just told it's oem only. Sorry to disappoint.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Was just told it's oem only. Sorry to disappoint.


BOO!!!!!! Strange that they would make a dropper that is OEM only. Maybe to help bolster some new brand change over from FOX/RS on their higher end offerings. Looks like Haro's new 27.5+ FS will be using the Magnum with the McLeod on the R7 (which is the top of the line I believe).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> BOO!!!!!! Strange that they would make a dropper that is OEM only. Maybe to help bolster some new brand change over from FOX/RS on their higher end offerings. Looks like Haro's new 27.5+ FS will be using the Magnum with the McLeod on the R7 (which is the top of the line I believe).


My hope is that it's currently oem only because of limited time for production reasons. They don't get into things like this with me, but being a small company, I can see it being the reason. I'd buy one just because Manitou customer service is ridiculously good.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> My hope is that it's currently oem only because of limited time for production reasons. They don't get into things like this with me, but being a small company, I can see it being the reason. I'd buy one just because Manitou customer service is ridiculously good.


Exactly.. and their suspension products have not let me down yet. While it is slightly different than the bike brand market, they should look at doing like FELT is now doing with new bike releases; its released when it is ready not when the next big show is coming.

And honestly I figured that there would be more new products coming when the released the Mattoc two years ago. The new logo they produced with that gave the illusion that there was 3 more products to come (all with trail tool names). So far we have the Mattoc, McLeod and the Jack, what other tool names would we be looking at (don't believe there is a Magnum trail tool)?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

EDIT: well technical we would have four now...
Machete/Magnum - Plus fork (new little brother to the Magnum)
Mcleod - rear shock
Mattoc - AM fork
Jack - Dropper


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

There is other products in the works as well, but they are in the beginning stages of development so it will be a while before they go public. I wish manitou had the budget of the bigger companies, this stuff would move along much faster. Hopefully they don't go oem only.....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> My hope is that it's currently oem only because of limited time for production reasons. They don't get into things like this with me, but being a small company, I can see it being the reason. I'd buy one just because Manitou customer service is ridiculously good.


You only need to engineer one working combination for each OEM fitment. For the aftermarket the number of fitment headaches are endless.

But. Anyone know the seatpost size on that Haro?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> You only need to engineer one working combination for each OEM fitment. For the aftermarket the number of fitment headaches are endless.
> 
> But. Anyone know the seatpost size on that Haro?


That's what I figured. Mass production on something like a seat post with so many different seat post size options(and ohe variables) would be a headache for a small company. Hopefully at some point though.

I don't see any bikes with droppers on their website to get a size.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Back to the Mattoc  Thanks for the advice guys, lowered all compression settings and upped the IRT to 95psi, main to 55psi. Just lovely. Soft off the top, buttery smooth progressiveness right up until the end. Came very close to bottoming, but didn't. When I first got the fork, I loved the feel of it being so linear, only problem was a bit of diving. Now it stays up in the mids much better and saves the last bit for big hits. It still feels very plush, almost linear in that it is so smooth as it gets deeper into its travel.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

sherwin24 said:


> Back to the Mattoc  Thanks for the advice guys, lowered all compression settings and upped the IRT to 95psi, main to 55psi. Just lovely. Soft off the top, buttery smooth progressiveness right up until the end. Came very close to bottoming, but didn't. When I first got the fork, I loved the feel of it being so linear, only problem was a bit of diving. Now it stays up in the mids much better and saves the last bit for big hits. It still feels very plush, almost linear in that it is so smooth as it gets deeper into its travel.


Those are pretty much the same settings that I am running. Still amazed at how good the fork is.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Where are you guys finding your irt upgrades? I can't find one online in stock.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

I found one here: http://www.rocknroots-components.ch/components-shop.php#!/Manitou-Mattoc-IRT-Kit/p/58691070

Most manitou items seem out of stock in Europe. Let's hope that's because of a fresh shipment of new goodies.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

^^how much do you weigh geared up?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Where are you guys finding your irt upgrades? I can't find one online in stock.


I was going to say I have them. But I just checked stock and I'm out too.

Time for a re-order!


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> I was going to say I have them. But I just checked stock and I'm out too.
> 
> Time for a re-order!


I grabbed the last one you had!  keen to try it out and see how it performs.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm in the USA so that link won't work. I'm 160lbs in gear currently running 73psi(I think my pump reads a little high) and am very happy with it. But I can't help but be curious about it.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Really struggling to get my hands on an irt kit here in GB too. All European sources seem out of stick with no eta's.
Sucky!


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Wooh!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Found the Manitou post... looks to be going on Haro's new AM full suspension bike called the R9LT. 
SOC16: Haro grows a 140mm travel mountain bike, cleans up Shift frames & more - Bikerumor


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Found the Manitou post... looks to be going on Haro's new AM full suspension bike called the R9LT.
> SOC16: Haro grows a 140mm travel mountain bike, cleans up Shift frames & more - Bikerumor


Anyone else find it weird that they are specing a Manitou seat post but Rs suspension? Why not just go reverb?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Anyone else find it weird that they are specing a Manitou seat post but Rs suspension? Why not just go reverb?


that is odd. hmm!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Anyone else find it weird that they are specing a Manitou seat post but Rs suspension? Why not just go reverb?


I would expect some wider deal has been done. Could also be different spec levels to come.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

Hi!
I just watched the videos on Manitous website that shows the Hex Lock QR15. Mine dont work this way...

I have to use a flat screwdriver (carefully) to get the HexLock out when removing the wheel. Everything else works great. The guy in the video simply pulls his QR out. Any ideas why I have do force mine?


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Is it new? Heard they can take a bit of bedding in. 
It can also help to wiggle the wheel a bit or relief pressure form wheel/axle.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

What is the largest tire/rim combo you guys are able to stuff into your Mattoc? 

Anyone running a 2.5 Trailboss or similar large volume?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bjornwattne said:


> Hi!
> I just watched the videos on Manitous website that shows the Hex Lock QR15. Mine dont work this way...
> 
> I have to use a flat screwdriver (carefully) to get the HexLock out when removing the wheel. Everything else works great. The guy in the video simply pulls his QR out. Any ideas why I have do force mine?


They can get sticky and jammed with dust. Clean it out and lubricate with a dry chain lube.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

2.8 nobby NICs fit fine. Search back a few pages there are links to photos of one. So most 2.5's should easy fit.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

I think I posted those, that forks is now mine.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

Thanks! I've used grease - too sticky it seems. Slickoleum on the o-ring, is that OK or is chainlube the solution also here?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

scar4me said:


> Really struggling to get my hands on an irt kit here in GB too. All European sources seem out of stick with no eta's.
> Sucky!


For euros, you can get it over https://www.bike-components.de/fr/, maybe they also ship to US, i don't know.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

payze said:


> For euros, you can get it over https://www.bike-components.de/fr/, maybe they also ship to US, i don't know.


I ordered see a IRT kit from them as needed 2 kits (grabbed one for a local forum member) over a month to get one but got it in the end and good pricing too.

The other I bought from Shockcraft.


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm running a 2.5" WTB Breakout on internal 30mm rims, 27.5". There is less than a cm of clearance to the top of the arch and small rocks which get stuck between treads get cleared by the arch. To be fair my Pike did the same thing. So they fit but not much room for mud. I don't ever ride in the mud but if I did I'd run a different tire.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

bike-discount.de does ship to the US (I have a Mattoc on the way).

One thing I have noticed in the past week since I started checking is that Mattoc tool kits, seal kits, etc are not in stock with the usual suspects like CRC, Universal Cycles, etc.

I'm not sure if Manitou is between stock groups (run X was sold out, run Y is in transit, being revised, etc).

Not a freak out and go crazy type of a deal but more of a curiosity since even oddball vendors do not appear to have these items right now.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Manitou says everything is in stock through BTI and any shop that uses them can order things for you. Shops that use qbp are currently unable to order them. Why no online shops are keeping them in stock is a head scratcher


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Manitou says everything is in stock through BTI and any shop that uses them can order things for you. Shops that use qbp are currently unable to order them. Why no online shops are keeping them in stock is a head scratcher


BTI | products matching "manitou" (page 3)

under Mattoc upgrade parts, I see IVA in stock, but not IRT.
BTI | Manitou Mattoc Expert/Pro IVA upgrade kit
BTI | Manitou Mattoc Expert/Pro IRT upgrade kit


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ColinL said:


> BTI | products matching "manitou" (page 3)
> 
> under Mattoc upgrade parts, I see IVA in stock, but not IRT.
> BTI | Manitou Mattoc Expert/Pro IVA upgrade kit
> BTI | Manitou Mattoc Expert/Pro IRT upgrade kit


Must have just sold out. About a week or so is when manitou told me that and they sent a picture in the email showing it as in stock.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Wondering if I want to reduce the travel on the fork do I have to add another spacer or can I just limit the travel by compressing the fork when the pump is attached?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> Wondering if I want to reduce the travel on the fork do I have to add another spacer or can I just limit the travel by compressing the fork when the pump is attached?


Either.

For a short term travel change the pump trick will be fine. But longer term you'll likely get sick of resetting it each time you attach a pump.


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## Syncro (Apr 20, 2014)

my HBO dial won't turn, it's jammed or something. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to do?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Syncro said:


> my HBO dial won't turn, it's jammed or something. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to do?


Have you tried backing out the little hex head bolt in the middle of the HBO dial? If it is done up too tight it can stop the dial from moving freely.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Hi guys. Noob here. I just got my Manitou Mattoc Pro yesterday and reading the manual and this thread I should be getting 9 clicks for rebound. I fiddled with the knobs last night and i just got 8 clicks of rebound. Does someone else gets only 8 clicks, I mean from full close to full open only 8 clicks or does the full close or full open count as 1 click?


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Syncro said:


> my HBO dial won't turn, it's jammed or something. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to do?


Might be some dirt or grime stuck between the HBO and HSC adjusters, or the ball detents. If backing out the screw as Kiwiplague suggested doesn't help you could try cleaning it out, be carefull not to lose the two small balls.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

magzky said:


> Hi guys. Noob here. I just got my Manitou Mattoc Pro yesterday and reading the manual and this thread I should be getting 9 clicks for rebound. I fiddled with the knobs last night and i just got 8 clicks of rebound. Does someone else gets only 8 clicks, I mean from full close to full open only 8 clicks or does the full close or full open count as 1 click?


How are you counting? From full open or close and then 'x' clicks? I get a bit of deadzone at both ends, but 9 clicks or 10 positions in between.
My HSC seems to do the same, whereas my LSC isn't very clear with the clicks, especially from open to close, the other way its better, no big deal, run it open mostly.

I opened mine up already, curious of course and not a bad idea to inspect the inside. Damper was a bit overfilled. And some oil migration round the air piston, but didn't affect the performance. Dropped the travel too from 160 to 150mm. Well thought out, joy to work on has to be said.

After that I did have to adjust the poppet valve or more oil had migrated because it was overly stiff even at lower pressures then before. Used the same motor oil I used for my Minute and yesterday picked up some RSP slick kick, the other grease didn't quite lube it well it seemed. Quite some stiction and could hear it too. Almost sound like you rub a cloth among the stanchions.
Might be that after a service/oil change it needs some breaking in?


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Stratus said:


> How are you counting? From full open or close and then 'x' clicks?


Yes, this is correct. I have not yet fitted the fork on my bike just done a little bit of fiddling on the knobs.

This is the picture of my Mattoc Pro. It seems different from Manitou's site as the one I got have black stanchions.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Aha a new Mattoc Pro with black stanchions, I've only seen those as OEM. I know some people have been waiting for that.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

So this is the new Mattoc Pro. Maybe they have decided to change the rebound clicks haha. I'll check over the weekend the oil level maybe it was overfilled or something.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

The date of manufacture on the box was dated 2016/3/31. My local LBS told me that Mattoc forks have arrived. When I got on the shop I saw black stanchions, that I did not see on Manitou's site or the images online.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

My high speed adjuster was "stuck" once. Manitou told me to turn it harder. I did, to the point I thought it might damage something, but it broke free. There may be some stiction if a knob hasnt been used in a while.

Just as an FYI, although you dont want to lose the 2 balls in the HBO knob, if you do its not a big deal. They just provide clicks, it essentially becomes an infinite adjust HBO w/o the clicks. This was confirmed by manitou.

I would love the red fork with the black stanchions!!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yup those are the new Mattoc Pro 2 forks, if you look on the website they actually have two different ones for the Mattoc now. Looks like the Mattoc Pro 2 is going to be ONLY 27.5 but we will see. Not really sure why they would release two versions of the same fork. Have to say that their black on black and Red on Black look damn sexy.


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

*Oil Leakage at the Air Valve*

Could someone advise from th e photos what kind of problem I am dealing with here?
The oil shows up everytime I open the cap and there are a couple of drops stagnating there. This happens even when I do not ride the fork.

Also I undestand that I can heve the IRT upgrade which is a new negative spring air shaft that increases middle range support into the fork. Have I got right? And I can also upgrade tothe new bolt on axle?

thank you


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

There's oil above it. To adjust the air pressure you really need to turn the fork upside down. Sure it's inconvenient, I usually flip the bike over and give it a few seconds.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bikegreece said:


> Also I undestand that I can heve the IRT upgrade which is a new negative spring air shaft that increases middle range support into the fork. Have I got right?


Afraid that's wrong.

IRT is a second chamber in the main air spring that just replaces the standard top cap adding an air valve.
Can run 1st chamber soft for supple initial stroke, then second chamber gives more midstroke and bottom out support.

There are plenty of diagrams and explanations if you Google it and look at the manitou pictures and PDF guides.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

LaXCarp said:


> I would love the red fork with the black stanchions!!





gregnash said:


> Have to say that their black on black and Red on Black look damn sexy.


I agree with you guys.

Anyway. I am planning to lower the travel down to 150mm just hoping my cassette tool has large enough ID. I do not have access to M-Prep grease but I can get SRAM Butter Grease. Is it safe to use the latter for the seals and o-rings on Manitou forks?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

magzky said:


> I agree with you guys.
> 
> Anyway. I am planning to lower the travel down to 150mm just hoping my cassette tool has large enough ID. I do not have access to M-Prep grease but I can get SRAM Butter Grease. Is it safe to use the latter for the seals and o-rings on Manitou forks?


Slickoleum (AKA Slick Honey) is the good stuff.

If your cassette tool is a Park FR5 then you're good.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

gregnash said:


> Yup those are the new Mattoc Pro 2 forks, if you look on the website they actually have two different ones for the Mattoc now. Looks like the Mattoc Pro 2 is going to be ONLY 27.5 but we will see. Not really sure why they would release two versions of the same fork. Have to say that their black on black and Red on Black look damn sexy.


Looking at the site and the fork specs I agree that I might got a Mattoc Pro 2 as the fork has IVA (Incremental Volume Adjust) right out of the box. I also emailed tech support as why I'm not getting the 9 clicks for the rebound. Just waiting for the reply.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

magzky said:


> Looking at the site and the fork specs I agree that I might got a Mattoc Pro 2 as the fork has IVA (Incremental Volume Adjust) right out of the box. I also emailed tech support as why I'm not getting the 9 clicks for the rebound. Just waiting for the reply.


Mattoc 2 has the keyed Hexlock SL instead of QR. So that's an easy tell-tale.

They are still convertable down to 26".


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## simonhuscroft (Sep 29, 2008)

Anyone managed to source a socket thin enough to undo the lower air side other than the manitou one? I'm good for the cassette tool and 24mm socket so don't want to shell out £45 for the full kit if I can help it and don't have access to tools to grind one down.

Managed to undo and tighten it with a 4mm Allen key to reduce travel but wouldn't want to keep doing that for fear of it rounding/wearing or damaging the valve.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Mattoc 2 has the keyed Hexlock SL instead of QR. So that's an easy tell-tale.
> 
> They are still convertable down to 26".


So that is why the 15mm axle seems a bit different from my Marvel comp which has the QR version.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

simonhuscroft said:


> Anyone managed to source a socket thin enough to undo the lower air side other than the manitou one? I'm good for the cassette tool and 24mm socket so don't want to shell out £45 for the full kit if I can help it and don't have access to tools to grind one down.
> 
> Managed to undo and tighten it with a 4mm Allen key to reduce travel but wouldn't want to keep doing that for fear of it rounding/wearing or damaging the valve.


Modified 8 mm Socket to fit Manitou Mattoc & Magnumb 2015 & Later

I had to make these for myself as overtorqued forks can break sockets. So we offer them to everyone.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Believe Dougal sells the socket by itself.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

payze said:


> Do you guys have a picture of your mattoc cassette tool? I'm asking because I have issues with my mine' it doesn't fit very well and i cant unscrew the pistons without damaging the teeth
> 
> Here's a pic of mine (brand new)


I just serviced the fork with a friend prior to installing the IRT-kit. I also used the tool from the kit and had the same problem. I filed down the tool and used a 1/2 inch end of a ratched to keep the tool from squeezing together when torquing (like someone mentioned earlier). That did the trick for me.

PS. Lots of oil in all the wrong places. So happy we did the service before installing the IRT. Parking lot test felt good. Will probably go for a first ride sunday. Can't wait.


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

Mudguard said:


> There's oil above it. To adjust the air pressure you really need to turn the fork upside down. Sure it's inconvenient, I usually flip the bike over and give it a few seconds.


I usually do this. Cannot remember if last time I tried to micro adjust pressure without turning the bike upside down and resulting into this. As long as this is nothing more than this I am good. 
Thank you


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

-IRT kit for sale- *SOLD*
Any Aussies, or anyone willing to order from Australia, after a Mattoc IRT kit? I've got one brand new unopened in the box.

I've just sold my mattoc and the guy didn't want the IRT. I loved the fork, but 650B was not for me. Bought the IRT kit but never got round to installing it.

PM me. $75 (Australian Dollars) plus shipping. Or nearest offer, PM me, it's got to go!:thumbsup:


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

markymark said:


> -IRT kit for sale-
> Any Aussies, or anyone willing to order from Australia, after a Mattoc IRT kit? I've got one brand new unopened in the box.
> 
> I've just sold my mattoc and the guy didn't want the IRT. I loved the fork, but 650B was not for me. Bought the IRT kit but never got round to installing it.
> ...


650b Is not for you. ..Do you use 29 instead or 26?


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> 650b Is not for you. ..Do you use 29 instead or 26?


Back to 29, but i'm 6'5". Had a Bronson 1 and it was just too small for me.:thumbsup:


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Just pulled the trigger on an IRT kit 
in-stock and only 78Eur inc shipping from mountainbikes.net

Can't wait to get it fitted n out on the trail!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I just ordered an IRT as well. Was told by manitou that it's backorder until June 22nd.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

curious to know what pressures people are running who have IRT installed. For those who do please chime in and include ride weight, type of riding, and other compression setttings if being used.

My current setting: 170lbs with gear, technical terrain with small drops
IRT: 95
Main: 50
--no compression or HBO used

i think im going to drop the main a bit on my next ride though.....


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

200 lbs. Turner 5 spot. 66.5 head angle, 72.5 seat angle. Mattoc at 160. IRT 100, main 60. No compression or HBO used, rebound set 3 clicks from full fast. 

Riding is typical north east riding with rocks and roots. 3-4 foot jumps give me close to 150 mm of travel. Fast G-outs give me 155+. Forks feels great.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Pretty close settings here too. 195lbs. Knolly Endorphin 27.5 Mattoc at 150mm. Main is at 60 IRT 95. No compression or HBO and 4-5 clicks from fast rebound. Excellent mid-end support, no harshness. G outs get it closest to bottoming, or if I do something stupid, but have never felt it bottom yet. Could probably drop a few psi and get it to bottom, and use a click of HBO, but no sense it that, feels great as is.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi! So I've read the thread from the start to end and there is some great info, I picked up some mattoc pro 2nd hand as crc were out of stock of the black ones. 

I'm having an issue in that the damping seems extremely quick, I've changed the oil under the compression assembly and refilled to the correct height. I haven't been able to get the lowers off as I need to grind down a socket to fit. Is it likely to be an issue where bleeding them with the lowers on hasn't worked (it wasn't working before I did this) or is there another likely cause? 

The adjuster on the bottom has 9 clicks but it just goes from very fast to less fast, it's nothing like the pike I have on my other bike in that you can make the damping so slow it barely returns. 

Anyone had this issue? The fork seems really simple to work on so I can't see there's much it can be?


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## Syncro (Apr 20, 2014)

Kiwiplague said:


> Have you tried backing out the little hex head bolt in the middle of the HBO dial? If it is done up too tight it can stop the dial from moving freely.


No dice. Tried this and it did not work. Any other ideas?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Jcwcooper said:


> I haven't been able to get the lowers off as I need to grind down a socket to fit. Is it likely to be an issue where bleeding them with the lowers on hasn't worked (it wasn't working before I did this) or is there another likely cause?
> ...
> Anyone had this issue? The fork seems really simple to work on so I can't see there's much it can be?


You don't need a ground down socket, you can just use a 4mm allen key pushed into the air valve to undo it.

As for bleeding... all this is is cycling the rebound rod, so compressing the fork whilst the lowers are on would do it fine.

Sounds like you've got the wrong oil in the damper if i'm honest.

The other possibility is that there is a build up of pressure in the lowers, so simply taking off the lowers and putting them back on might cure it.
I wouldn't expect that to have enough force to really speed up the rebound like your saying, but the only thing that I can think might impact it that way.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Syncro said:


> No dice. Tried this and it did not work. Any other ideas?


I'd try removing the compression adjuster assembly and see if it spins when removed. If it does, then something may be up with your damper. If not, then there may be some dirt or grit stuck in the dial itself.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jcwcooper said:


> Hi! So I've read the thread from the start to end and there is some great info, I picked up some mattoc pro 2nd hand as crc were out of stock of the black ones.
> 
> I'm having an issue in that the damping seems extremely quick, I've changed the oil under the compression assembly and refilled to the correct height. I haven't been able to get the lowers off as I need to grind down a socket to fit. Is it likely to be an issue where bleeding them with the lowers on hasn't worked (it wasn't working before I did this) or is there another likely cause?
> 
> ...


If a rebound circuit goes to dead slow, then it has no high speed rebound circuit. With a working high speed rebound the dial becomes a low speed rebound adjuster. Virtually every manitou fork since the 1996 EFC has run like this.

Can you find a working setting when you ride it? If not check your air pressure isn't too high and causing bucking.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Jcwcooper said:


> Hi! So I've read the thread from the start to end and there is some great info, I picked up some mattoc pro 2nd hand as crc were out of stock of the black ones.
> 
> I'm having an issue in that the damping seems extremely quick, I've changed the oil under the compression assembly and refilled to the correct height. I haven't been able to get the lowers off as I need to grind down a socket to fit. Is it likely to be an issue where bleeding them with the lowers on hasn't worked (it wasn't working before I did this) or is there another likely cause?
> 
> ...


On my fork, there is a definite difference between full open and full closed on the rebound. One click to full closed is not dead slow but the last click is. I wonder if your pump is not filling both air chambers.

I am always wary of second hand forks. People do some stupid sht.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

My irt setting:

Transition scout with mattoc expert @ 150mm, 0HBO, 2 HSC, 0-2 LSC (depends on terrain)
IRT 65 psi
Main chamber 35 psi

I'm 65kg equiped, riding both on soft terrain and rocky stuff without problem, that thing is magic!


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> On my fork, there is a definite difference between full open and full closed on the rebound. One click to full closed is not dead slow but the last click is. I wonder if your pump is not filling both air chambers.
> 
> I am always wary of second hand forks. People do some stupid sht.


Worst thing is it's not something I would normally do, just trying to save some money and crc didn't have black.

Mine has very little little difference from slow to fast, they also have a noticeable top out, I'm pretty sure it's filling both chambers up the forks are super smooth and feel great other than the speed of the rebound, I'm tempted to replace the damper but no one has them instock that I have found....

should probably add add I have had them apart and all looks well except the last owner has butchered the airspring so I'm wary of taking them apart until I find some spare parts.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Jcwcooper said:


> Worst thing is it's not something I would normally do, they also have a noticeable top out, I'm pretty sure it's filling both chambers up the forks are super smooth and feel great other than the speed of the rebound, I'm tempted to replace the damper but no one has them instock that I have found....
> 
> should probably add add I have had them apart and all looks well except the last owner has butchered the airspring so I'm wary of taking them apart until I find some spare parts.


The fact the forks are topping out bad is a major warning sign!
Don't ride them till you've fully stripped them and corrected whatever bodge has been done in them.

It does sound like your issue is in the air spring at the moment.
Don't even bother looking at replacing the damper till you've had the air spring apart completely and confirm the state and setup of it.

My hunch is that the seal has gone\been damaged in the actual shaft sealhead of the air spring. This would mean that the negative chamber pressure would leak out into the lowers, and pressurize them causing them to add excessive extension forces to the fork action. (like having 2 positive spring chambers.)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Agreed with scar abs Vespanius. You've got an air spring issue.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

scar4me said:


> The fact the forks are topping out bad is a major warning sign!
> Don't ride them till you've fully stripped them and corrected whatever bodge has been done in them.
> 
> It does sound like your issue is in the air spring at the moment.
> ...


Ok will take a look at the air Spring, is there anywhere that has spares instock as everything I can find seems to be out of stock?


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## 98srx6 (Jun 25, 2012)

You likely don't need the air spring piston, just the seal. Should be available anywhere.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I've got spares.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

Thanks dougal I may well have to order some parts.

So I've pulled the air Spring today I can't see any obvious damage to it, I've cleaned it up and there should be a picture below, the seal at the top looks ok no nicks in it.










Inside the upper legs looks fine no scratching nice and smooth.

The seal on the top is the one I guess your suggesting I change?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

That quad seal on the piston looks twisted round. The lower ridge looks like it's sticking out more. Both seal edges should be even.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

I think your right I've moved it round and it looks like it will make contact on both lips now. Is there a seal kit available for the mattoc?


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

So you can buy the quad seals but I can't find any stock in the uk.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

You shouldn't need a new one. Just put it back together like that and pressure it up n see how it works.
Quad seals aren't too hard to come by. I'm sure CRC had them in stock before. If not I can send over a link to a good quad seal supplier in the uk n order the right size from them.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

Scar4me thanks for your help, Ive been and popped it back together (started earlier) problem solved! No top out and sensible rebound speed! 

I spoke to hotlines uk earlier in anticipation of needing a new air Spring and they said that they are special order only hope that's not going to be the case for all manitou spares!

Thanks again for your help the whole thread is full of info!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

There is a new piston design available. The difference visually is the new one has glide rings above and below the quad ring.

I can send you one for the cost of postage if you can't find one locally. But first reassemble the fork using slickoleum grease on the air piston and see how it rides.


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## Jcwcooper (Jun 4, 2016)

Thanks Dougal, it's working as it should now! Thank you for the offer!


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Jcwcooper said:


> Thanks Dougal, it's working as it should now! Thank you for the offer!


I would take new piston from Dougal, I had many issues with air spring when I had this old design, after replacing it all problems are gone. With the new piston I would call it a very reliable fork


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

IRT just installed.
210lb rider fully kitted.

base settings:
IRT 105
Main 58
LSC 0
HSC 0
HBO 1

Very plush off the top, but good support and spring progression.
But will get it on the trail later n see how it rides n see if it needs tweaking.








Genius 720 with 26in wheels, 216x63 shock and offset bushings giving 171mm travel, and spot on geometry 

Next upgrade will likely be a kingcan for the shock, but that can wait.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

RoboS said:


> I would take new piston from Dougal, I had many issues with air spring when I had this old design, after replacing it all problems are gone. With the new piston I would call it a very reliable fork


Manitou are sending me the new piston free as well as the upgraded Expert rebound.

And today I got home to an IRT valve cap in the mailbox as mine didn't come with one. Their customer service is the best I've experienced.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Boom King said:


> Manitou are sending me the new piston free as well as the upgraded Expert rebound.
> 
> And today I got home to an IRT valve cap in the mailbox as mine didn't come with one. Their customer service is the best I've experienced.


I agree, their customer service is the best I ever seen at bike/components manufacturer.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Just did a lowers service on my mattoc n used super slick PTFE silicone grease....
All I can say is wow!
Readjusting all my settings now. Having to add 3clicks more rebound.
Up the main spring pressure 8psi.
It's so so much more sensitive now.

Just have to see how long they stay like it, as it is a non branded grease. But feels Uber sticky, so should stay put for a good while.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Well back from my first decent ride now.... main pressure 68psi, irt 110psi. Super smooth and supple.
I'd go so far to say it's the first time they've felt an even match or even better than the Bos devilles I had!


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Is there a percentage above main pressure to set the IRT as a starting point? 

35 psi is giving me 30% sag (170lb) although I'm guessing I'll end up 40+. I was thinking around 90 as a starting point.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Check this PDF out, shows irt vs main pressure depending on fork travel setting. 
https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/46-32685_Mattoc_IRT.pdf

As a side note, does anyone find the recommended air pressures from Manitou to be over sprung? Im running what is recommended and Im finding it over sprung, and Im reading a few pages back that dudes in my weight range are running a lot less than than I am as well.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

shmity said:


> Check this PDF out, shows irt vs main pressure depending on fork travel setting.
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/46-32685_Mattoc_IRT.pdf
> 
> As a side note, does anyone find the recommended air pressures from Manitou to be over sprung? Im running what is recommended and Im finding it over sprung, and Im reading a few pages back that dudes in my weight range are running a lot less than than I am as well.


I'm running a lot less than recommended.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

shmity said:


> Check this PDF out, shows irt vs main pressure depending on fork travel setting.
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/46-32685_Mattoc_IRT.pdf
> 
> *As a side note, does anyone find the recommended air pressures from Manitou to be over sprung?* Im running what is recommended and Im finding it over sprung, and Im reading a few pages back that dudes in my weight range are running a lot less than than I am as well.


Oversprung if you're in the saddle all the time. Relatively close if you're in the attack position.

Always set sag with all compression adjusters set to minimum (open).


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

I am waiting right now for the IRT to arrive.
The suggested air pressures are definitely higher than the one I use either or on the saddle or attack position.
81kgs (178lbs) - 48psi in the main without installing the irt yet. All adjusters set to minimum while riding. I use the LSC up to 2 and HSC up to 1 upon demand.
It is so strange that lighter people are using higher pressures. Do you all get full travel with those settings? 
I've measured mine with three different pumps.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Having a look at the chart i posted before, at your weight theres a pressure difference of 22psi between 140mm and 170mm travel settings. No doubt theres been plenty of apples to oranges comparisons so far in the thread, especially if going by the sticker on the fork leg which has only air pressures for one travel setting.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bikegreece said:


> I am waiting right now for the IRT to arrive.
> The suggested air pressures are definitely higher than the one I use either or on the saddle or attack position.
> 81kgs (178lbs) - 48psi in the main without installing the irt yet. All adjusters set to minimum while riding. I use the LSC up to 2 and HSC up to 1 upon demand.
> It is so strange that lighter people are using higher pressures. Do you all get full travel with those settings?
> I've measured mine with three different pumps.


I had the same issue.
My pressures were much lower than charted for my weight.
Once I'd done a lowers service and lubed up the seals n bushings the fork was much more supple and my pressures are now bang on recommend.

I used super slick silicone PTFE grease n made worlds of difference!


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

scar4me said:


> I had the same issue.
> My pressures were much lower than charted for my weight.
> Once I'd done a lowers service and lubed up the seals n bushings the fork was much more supple and my pressures are now bang on recommend.
> 
> I used super slick silicone PTFE grease n made worlds of difference!


What sag are you running? Also, I'm assuming sag should be set with pressure in the IRT.


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

Wishing if there was a descent service centre here in Greece to check and lube the fork properly. I am some short of a loner regarding the Manitou as they almost missing frm the market and very few people using them. I like their forks a lot; more than the Foxs or the RS and I am using them on most of my bikes.

I do not have support however.
The EU tech center (based in Munich) reacted properly on a cracked legs issue I had with my Minute two weeks ago and although without saying or answering all my questions they said they are sending me a replacement set of boots. I am waiting for them now (no advise of shipping or anything - very unresponsive).
Unfortunately this experience with my Mattoc was even worse. I had this oil leakage problem from the air valve. Apart from my question in here I dropped them an email as well to get their official view. Almost ten days later and after 3 emails I still haven't heard from them.
They do not seem so great in communication but since I have no support locally as well makes me feel very uncomfortable.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

bikegreece said:


> Wishing if there was a descent service centre here in Greece to check and lube the fork properly. I am some short of a loner regarding the Manitou as they almost missing frm the market and very few people using them. I like their forks a lot; more than the Foxs or the RS and I am using them on most of my bikes.
> 
> I do not have support however.
> The EU tech center (based in Munich) reacted properly on a cracked legs issue I had with my Minute two weeks ago and although without saying or answering all my questions they said they are sending me a replacement set of boots. I am waiting for them now (no advise of shipping or anything - very unresponsive).
> ...


We have no support here in Australia either but I have dealt with Dougal at Shockcraft in NZ (official NZ service centre) and direct with Manitou in the USA. Both have been fabulous in terms of service and communication.


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

Yes, I'll keep the US contact as my last option, if I completely disappoint from the EU tech.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Boom King said:


> What sag are you running? Also, I'm assuming sag should be set with pressure in the IRT.


~28% sag in attack position.
I'm 210lb\95Kg geared up. 170mm 26in mode.

Always pressure up IRT first with no pressure in the main chamber.
IRT must be +10PSI above the main chamber at a minimum.

Personally if you are struggling to get full travel, I'd also be checking your damper oil level, as that has been known to come over filled from factory and restrict travel.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

scar4me said:


> ~28% sag in attack position.
> I'm 210lb\95Kg geared up. 170mm 26in mode.
> 
> Always pressure up IRT first with no pressure in the main chamber.
> ...


Levels are fine as Dougal recently did some warranty work on it.

I get full travel, no issue there. I'm 80kg geared up, fork at 160mm and getting 30% sag at 40psi. This is around 20psi less than the suggested pressure on the Manitou chart. I was just curious as to where others are in relation to the suggested figures.


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

Just got in my hands the IRT kit. It came without a cup for the air valve. is this right?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

bikegreece said:


> Just got in my hands the IRT kit. It came without a cup for the air valve. is this right?


Seems to happen a lot from what I've heard. Mine came without and so did a friend's, both from different places.

I contacted Manitou and they sent me one in the mail.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Boom King said:


> Levels are fine as Dougal recently did some warranty work on it.
> 
> I get full travel, no issue there. I'm 80kg geared up, fork at 160mm and getting 30% sag at 40psi. This is around 20psi less than the suggested pressure on the Manitou chart. I was just curious as to where others are in relation to the suggested figures.


As I'm about the same weight fully geared I'm asking if you have 30% sag sited or in attack position. I have now the IRT, but before I had about 50 Psi to achieve 30% sag in attack position (160mm). And the Mattoc is very sensitive to pressure changes. A few psi less or more and you have a totally different fork.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Samos said:


> As I'm about the same weight fully geared I'm asking if you have 30% sag sited or in attack position. I have now the IRT, but before I had about 50 Psi to achieve 30% sag in attack position (160mm). And the Mattoc is very sensitive to pressure changes. A few psi less or more and you have a totally different fork.


I always set fork sag in attack position, shock sag seated.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Boom King said:


> Levels are fine as Dougal recently did some warranty work on it.
> 
> I get full travel, no issue there. I'm 80kg geared up, fork at 160mm and getting 30% sag at 40psi. This is around 20psi less than the suggested pressure on the Manitou chart. I was just curious as to where others are in relation to the suggested figures.


I think bike geometries and the weight distribution for a given bike will play a role in this as well. With my dw linked bike, I found I would have to significantly change the shock pressure if I ran a 160mm fork or a 145 mm fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm about 70kg and run 45psi. I have ridden other people's Mattoc forks at 90psi and yes they still worked!

I set air pressure by frequency/response rather than sag. The resulting sag on this fork isn't much at my pressure but it works and works very well. With a linear air spring you don't need or want a lot of sag.

I ran 40psi for one specific event, I needed the fork to eat 5" tree roots repeatedly and it did. But 40psi hangs too low on steep descents (single track) for me to run it normally.

I should get around to installing an IRT kit. One day.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> I'm about 70kg and run 45psi. I have ridden other people's Mattoc forks at 90psi and yes they still worked!
> 
> I set air pressure by frequency/response rather than sag. The resulting sag on this fork isn't much at my pressure but it works and works very well. With a linear air spring you don't need or want a lot of sag.
> 
> ...


Am I on right track thinking that the IRT allows lower main spring pressure, increasing small bump while giving better mid stroke support?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Am I on right track thinking that the IRT allows lower main spring pressure, increasing small bump while giving better mid stroke support?


Yes. I've ridden a mates fork with irt ball to back with my fork (no irt). The midstroke difference was significant.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Boom King said:


> Am I on right track thinking that the IRT allows lower main spring pressure, increasing small bump while giving better mid stroke support?


As per dougal's comments, allows super sensitive initial stroke with lower pressures. Whilst still having good ramp up to a then linear rate through the rest of the travel.
Especially useful for people like me who aren't on the lighter end of the scale.
Originally my mattoc had good small sensitivity on initial stroke, but always felt like with the right sag pressure it went through its travel bit to easily.

Definitely an upgrade I'd recommend.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I have been running the IRT system for a while now and can say it works exactly as advertised.You can drop the main pressure to get an even plusher ride and still have great mid-stroke support. With that said, I do think you can get an excellent ride and set-up with the compression adjustments alone. With the IRT system, I have every compression system set to minimum.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Same here. Previously I would run the Mattoc with too little air to keep small bump sensitivity good. That worked well for more moderate terrain. Steep rough terrain it was more of a choice between small bump sensitivity or keep the fork from diving.

The IRT kit solved this dilemma.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

I've installed mine but yet to ride. Should be able to give it a run on Tuesday. Can't wait.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Just acquired a Mattoc pro for my transam (against my LBS advice) and figured I would jump onto MTBR to get some info on it before I drop it to 140mm. Figured there might be a tip or so.

Alas, I finda 66 page thread. Whole lotta reading to do - thanks everyone!


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Why was your lbs against getting a Mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Kiwiplague said:


> Why was your lbs against getting a Mattoc?


It's often because they have a Pike hanging on the wall!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

006_007 said:


> Just acquired a Mattoc pro for my transam (against my LBS advice) and figured I would jump onto MTBR to get some info on it before I drop it to 140mm. Figured there might be a tip or so.
> 
> Alas, I finda 66 page thread. Whole lotta reading to do - thanks everyone!


In the mattoc pro homepage and on youtube you can find the video instruction for travel adjust. 
It in the gern an thread mattoc pro fahrberichte page 49 there is a pdf file with photigraphs


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Kiwiplague said:


> Why was your lbs against getting a Mattoc?


Canadian LBS. There are ZERO distributors carrying Manitou up here, so getting parts, support, anything is non existant. Totally on my own, but that is ok, I do my own wrenching anyway.

Already have the mattoc toolkit to disassemble. Next will be getting the fork oil and voila, fork ready for use!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> It's often because they have a Pike hanging on the wall!


LOL, probably that as well. Couldnt justify that as the pike was double the price of the mattoc. I was assured the pike was twice as good a fork and will reduce my strave times in half.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> In the mattoc pro homepage and on youtube you can find the video instruction for travel adjust.
> It in the gern an thread mattoc pro fahrberichte page 49 there is a pdf file with photigraphs


Awesome - will search that out - Thanks!


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

It is one thing I don't understand. I rode my Mattoc Pro as a 26" fork with 160 mm travel (out of the box). Recently I did the change to 27,5" following the Manitou tech-video and changed the HBO piston and remembered to add the volume spacer needed.

So i had ~160 mm inner legs showing in the 160 mm/26" version. When I changed to 150 mm/27,5", ~160 mm inner leg is STILL showing. A week ago I changed to 160 mm/27,5" (trying the 160 mm option on my Tracer2). Now 174 mm (!) of the inner legs is showing... Measured where the crown is at it lowest.

So what do I do? The A2C is noticeable longer now (sitting on my bike I can both see and feel the difference).

Could I have done something wrong?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bjornwattne said:


> It is one thing I don't understand. I rode my Mattoc Pro as a 26" fork with 160 mm travel (out of the box). Recently I did the change to 27,5" following the Manitou tech-video and changed the HBO piston and remembered to add the volume spacer needed.
> 
> So i had ~160 mm inner legs showing in the 160 mm/26" version. When I changed to 150 mm/27,5", ~160 mm inner leg is STILL showing. A week ago I changed to 160 mm/27,5" (trying the 160 mm option on my Tracer2). Now 174 mm (!) of the inner legs is showing... Measured where the crown is at it lowest.
> 
> ...


Nope, that's right. 
27.5 mode runs with 10mm more stantion than travel showing.
26in mode runs with the same travel as stantion showing.


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

OK. That explains everything really. Good feedback. I'm not the sensitive type and haven't noticed a slightly higher bottom bracket. No point in reducing the travel to obtain "right" A2C length then!? Except maybe the geometry is a bit off what it was designed to, or maybe not since the A2C length differs between forks!?

Changed from 5W oil to 2,5 W oil as well. Seems a bit more sensitive now, but as said - I'm not the sensitive type...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

006_007 said:


> Canadian LBS. There are ZERO distributors carrying Manitou up here, so getting parts, support, anything is non existant. Totally on my own, but that is ok, I do my own wrenching anyway.
> 
> Already have the mattoc toolkit to disassemble. Next will be getting the fork oil and voila, fork ready for use!


I have been thinking about becoming a distributor or something. Dougal is great but he is also half way around the world from us in North America. I will have to look into it farther.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

So I just received the upgraded Rebound assembly and air piston for my Mattoc Expert.

What fluid should I be using when I get around to fitting them? Cheers.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Boom King said:


> So I just received the upgraded Rebound assembly and air piston for my Mattoc Expert.
> 
> What fluid should I be using when I get around to fitting them? Cheers.


I may have missed it somewhere, but what does the upgraded rebound assembly have over what came stock on the Expert?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Kiwiplague said:


> I may have missed it somewhere, but what does the upgraded rebound assembly have over what came stock on the Expert?


More clicks, early Expert's had 4 and new ones have 8.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Mines an early one then, it only has the 4 clicks. I wonder how much the newer one is here in NZ? May have to ask Dougal. 

On another note, I'm looking at getting the IRT, anybody know if it works well for us really lightweight riders? Im only pushing 64kg kitted up, so I'm always having to run most of my lsc etc pretty much open.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

It does i'm 65kg and running 35psi in chamber and 65psi in irt, works Well!

Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Kiwiplague said:


> Mines an early one then, it only has the 4 clicks. I wonder how much the newer one is here in NZ? May have to ask Dougal.
> 
> On another note, I'm looking at getting the IRT, anybody know if it works well for us really lightweight riders? Im only pushing 64kg kitted up, so I'm always having to run most of my lsc etc pretty much open.


Dougal should be able to supply one free as Manitou don't charge for them, get the new air piston seal head as well. Also, there is nothing wrong with running LSC & HSC open, the aim is to run as little as possible to allow the suspension to do what it's designed to.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Mine is a pro 2 and only get 8 clicks, 7 previously but after disassebling the lowers I now get 8. On the pro it states that it should be 9 clicks for rebound but on the pro 2 only 8.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

*Seal has a slit*

I did a lowering earlier and noticed something on the compression assembly the lower white seal has a slit but none on the top.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

magzky said:


> I did a lowering earlier and noticed something on the compression assembly the lower white seal has a slit but none on the top.


That's just the new piston assembly.
Top one is a glide ring, lower one is a seal glide spacer. They're meant to be different.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

scar4me said:


> That's just the new piston assembly.
> Top one is a glide ring, lower one is a seal glide spacer. They're meant to be different.


Thanks scar4me. I thought I had a broken seal or something.

Anyway, after disassembly and re greasing the seals. I noticed something, when I attached the fork pump the lowers now are hard to pull. And after pulling it compressed right back. What I did was I put air about 90psi as recommended for my weight at 150mm travel and then pulled the lowers at full and it did not compress right back. I disconnected the pump and checked and it was full travel, I rode the bike around the neighborhood and no dead travel what so ever.

I'm saying this because after using out of the box the lowers are easy to pull and does not compress after pulling.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Sounds like you've got a vacuum in the lowers. Make sure you're pulling them up to max extension when tightening the damper and air piston in the lowers. Using the 4mm hex method that is one of my steps before tightening, and after the threads have seated.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

scar4me said:


> Sounds like you've got a vacuum in the lowers. Make sure you're pulling them up to max extension when tightening the damper and air piston in the lowers. Using the 4mm hex method that is one of my steps before tightening, and after the threads have seated.


Just did you 4mm hex method and problrm solved. Thanks.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

So the Mattoc that I have came with the IVA cap on the top of left leg. Doesnt appear to be much love for it / info on it in this thread - is it essentially a poor mans IVT with only 3 possible positions for the piston VS the infinite adjust of the IVT?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

006_007 said:


> So the Mattoc that I have came with the IVA cap on the top of left leg. Doesnt appear to be much love for it / info on it in this thread - is it essentially a poor mans IVT with only 3 possible positions for the piston VS the infinite adjust of the IVT?


It's a different thing entirely. It simply allows for volume adjustment af the air chamber by adding or removing tokens.

The IRT adds a second air chamber that can be tuned via pressure adjustment.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

As above.
Iva = end stroke progression only.
Irt = beginning, middle and end tuning of the air spring.


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

Looking for some feedback from the pros. 

I've got about 7 rides and a big park day at Trestle on my 160mm Expert with an IRT. I'm 195 lbs kitted up and I ride a 650b Enduro (165mm). I'm coming from a Pike. I currently have all settings backed completely off (using them results in an overly unresponsive fork) and have been slowly backing off my air pressure from 60/100, 55/95, and now 48/85 (main/IRT). 

The fork does ok on big hits but feels over damped and a sticky compared to the Pike. I also had to do something really dumb to bottom it out, overshot a jump and complete huck-to-flat. Otherwise, I'm only using about 140mm of the travel on very aggressive/high speed rocky terrain. I realize that full use still leaves 1 cm of stanchion left before crown. 

Just to ensure things are as they should be, I'm going drop the legs and check oil/re-grease. Can someone point me to the best resource for this process? I have all of the tools from Manitou. Also, any other suggestions on improving performance? I'm going on a big ride tonight and will probably drop the pressure down more but this is significantly under what Manitou recommends so I'm a little concerned that something is not right. 

Also, perhaps a dumb question but does altitude affect air forks and pressure recommendations? I live at 6k but often end up starting at 8k or higher and have always been curious about this.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Had a night n day result when using super slick silicone PTFE grease on the seals during a lower service. Had to up my rebound damping 4clicks!

Other than that I'm also running zero compression adjustments.
I'm 210 n run 115 irt, 55main.
Mines super active but not wallowy, and survives the worst I can throw at it with ease!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

louevil said:


> Looking for some feedback from the pros.
> 
> I've got about 7 rides and a big park day at Trestle on my 160mm Expert with an IRT. I'm 195 lbs kitted up and I ride a 650b Enduro (165mm). I'm coming from a Pike. I currently have all settings backed completely off (using them results in an overly unresponsive fork) and have been slowly backing off my air pressure from 60/100, 55/95, and now 48/85 (main/IRT).
> 
> ...


Yes 6-8K feet is significant. You might need to vent the lower bolts.

How does the fork actually feel? Is it smooth throughout it's travel? Can you attach a pump and compress it fully?

Has anyone changed the oil?


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Yes 6-8K feet is significant. You might need to vent the lower bolts.
> 
> How does the fork actually feel? Is it smooth throughout it's travel? Can you attach a pump and compress it fully?
> 
> Has anyone changed the oil?


First-this forum is amazing.

What does "venting" the lower bolts involve? I will tell you that last night before my ride I attached the shock pump, let all of the air out, then inflated to 48 in the main chamber and the difference was significant. I may even need to add more air now as I was using a lot more of the travel and the fork felt much more active almost to the point of divey under braking. The issue before is that it simply felt too stiff and it wasn't using all of the travel. It also felt "sticky" in the travel it was using. Almost like the low-speed was turned on all the way.

What do you mean by attaching a pump and compressing it fully? I guess pressing the release button on the pump and pushing it down to see if I can get full compression?

As it stands...there is a big difference after cycling the main air chamber. I immediately noticed the low speed damper didn't just lock up completely after 1 click. Perhaps I just need to cycle the air occasionally?

On the PTFE grease mentioned, is SRAM butter similar or what specific product are you referring to? Would SRAM's OW-30 work well for oil? I just happen to own both...


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

I was poking around on Manitou's site for service manuals when I noticed that they now have a Mattoc Pro 2. Apparently, there's been some chassis and air spring refinements, and IVA comes stock on the fork. Looks like it has a new through-axle as well.
https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/forks/mattoc-2-pro/


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

louevil said:


> First-this forum is amazing.
> 
> What does "venting" the lower bolts involve? I will tell you that last night before my ride I attached the shock pump, let all of the air out, then inflated to 48 in the main chamber and the difference was significant. I may even need to add more air now as I was using a lot more of the travel and the fork felt much more active almost to the point of divey under braking. The issue before is that it simply felt too stiff and it wasn't using all of the travel. It also felt "sticky" in the travel it was using. Almost like the low-speed was turned on all the way.
> 
> ...


I believe what they mean by venting the lowers is essentially equalizing the internal pressure with the outside air pressure (which obviously changes with altitude). Basically just cracking the "bolts" on the bottom of the legs should do just that. No need to completely disassemble - just open the threads, then re-torque them.

Attaching the pump and compressing it fully - you got it - attach the pump, and try cycling the suspension.

PTFE grease - I use this product Slickoleum Light Grease - Mountain Equipment Co-op. Free Shipping Available - I think it is the damestuff that dougal uses.

for the semi bath I am using mobil 1 synthetic motor oil as I had a b!tch of a time acquiring motorex supergliss in Canada. For the damper I was able to get motorex fork oil in Canada.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

006_007 said:


> I believe what they mean by venting the lowers is essentially equalizing the internal pressure with the outside air pressure (which obviously changes with altitude). Basically just cracking the "bolts" on the bottom of the legs should do just that. No need to completely disassemble - just open the threads, then re-torque them.


Yes, but you didn't mention a critical step-

You must elevate the fork so that the foot nuts are above horizontal (to the ground) so that you don't dump bath oil when you do this.

Another thing to check, absolutely, is damper oil height. Sometimes they come overfilled from the factory, and every now and then you can get intrusion of the bath oil into the damper.

The damper oil level is covered well in reachcontrol's document here: https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## bjornwattne (Dec 18, 2014)

After doing a couple of dissasemblies on my fork (Mattoc Pro) for adjusting travel, rebuilding to 27,5", adjusting travel again, changing oil etc., the air shaft has started to round off a bit.

More exactly where you attach the 8 mm thin wall socket.

Question one:
Whats the part number for getting a new one?

Question two:
Is it necessary to by the entire shaft (appr. £ 60-70)?

Live in Norway by the way...


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bjornwattne said:


> After doing a couple of dissasemblies on my fork (Mattoc Pro) for adjusting travel, rebuilding to 27,5", adjusting travel again, changing oil etc., the air shaft has started to round off a bit.
> 
> More exactly where you attach the 8 mm thin wall socket.
> 
> ...


no need....

Just use the 4mm Hex method:
Push and hold a 4mm hex key in the valve pin to undo.
It's slightly awkward fighting the valve pin's spring, but does the same job.


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## bsurg (Jul 19, 2015)

Hey folks,

I just got a Mattoc Pro 2nd hand that I need to adjust down to 140mm (currently at 160mm). Thing is, I can't find the Mattoc Tool Kit anywhere. Does anyone know where I can get the kit, or if there are any hacks?


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

They seem out of stock almost everywhere. The most common and useful hack is right above you, 4mm hex key instead of the somewhat difficult to obtain 8mm deep thin walled socket. Alternatively take a grinder to an 8mm socket. 24mm socket can be a regular one if you apply some pressure and have some some dexterity. Cassette tool of the Parktool FR-5 style, doesn't have to have a slot if you slide it over the air shaft.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

bsurg said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I just got a Mattoc Pro 2nd hand that I need to adjust down to 140mm (currently at 160mm). Thing is, I can't find the Mattoc Tool Kit anywhere. Does anyone know where I can get the kit, or if there are any hacks?


Eric at hayes had me get into contact with a shop called bens cycles. They were able to get me the kit and shipped it to me two weeks ago.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I asked Manitou about this a few weeks ago while getting the updated air piston since that would require taking things apart.

The response I received was one to two weeks for stocks to replenish which would be sometime this week assuming no delays, etc.

Sounded like they basically sold out the first run stock and new stocks for the tool kit, seals, etc were on the way.

Air piston was promptly shipped to me so a shout out to Manitou customer service which is always pretty great.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

So I'm planning on tearing apart my Mattoc. I have an older model with the leak prone seals. How many of the newer quad seals would I need to purchase? I am also unable to find mprep anywhere. Are there any known substitutes to are fine to use? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Scott5272 said:


> So I'm planning on tearing apart my Mattoc. I have an older model with the leak prone seals. How many of the newer quad seals would I need to purchase? I am also unable to find mprep anywhere. Are there any known substitutes to are fine to use?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


I'm not sure what leak prone seals you have or how quad rings are going to help you!

Are you looking for the new air piston?

Slickoleum is the replacement for Prep M. Slick Honey is the same as Slickoleum but sold through different channels with a different brand.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

I remember reading that the new quad seals fixed air or oil migration. Been a while since I read it. OK so the Slick*** is good to be used on top of the piston 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Scott5272 said:


> I remember reading that the new quad seals fixed air or oil migration. Been a while since I read it. OK so the Slick*** is good to be used on top of the piston
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


There's a new air piston design which is greased with slickoleum. The earlier pistons were oil lubricated and have one less glide ring.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Dougal said:


> There's a new air piston design which is greased with slickoleum. The earlier pistons were oil lubricated and have one less glide ring.


So it would be worth getting the new air piston I assume?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Scott5272 said:


> So it would be worth getting the new air piston I assume?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


May as well if youhave 10mm shaft clamps to change it. Where are you based?


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Dougal said:


> May as well if youhave 10mm shaft clamps to change it. Where are you based?


Pennsylvania. Just to clarify, the new air spring is or is not the IRT? I'm having a hell of a time trying to find any parts for the shock or fork in the USA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> Pennsylvania. Just to clarify, the new air spring is or is not the IRT? I'm having a hell of a time trying to find any parts for the shock or fork in the USA.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


I am in Pennsylvania. All you need to do is take a part number into any LBS and you will have the part in 1 week - max. Very easy to get parts and pieces for this fork. Heck, Manitou will dos often send parts for free.

IRT is not the air spring. It is an additional upgrade. New forks come with IVA. The main air spring is the Dorado air. If you do not have the main new air piston, Manitou will send it to you for free.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> I am in Pennsylvania. All you need to do is take a part number into any LBS and you will have the part in 1 week - max. Very easy to get parts and pieces for this fork. Heck, Manitou will dos often send parts for free.
> 
> IRT is not the air spring. It is an additional upgrade. New forks come with IVA. The main air spring is the Dorado air. If you do not have the main new air piston, Manitou will send it to you for free.


That's good to know, thank you! I did send an email to them in regards to my McLeod that is having issues. I added asking about the updated airspring. That should have the new relief valve cap too?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Scott5272 said:


> That's good to know, thank you! I did send an email to them in regards to my McLeod that is having issues. I added asking about the updated airspring. That should have the new relief valve cap too?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


It's only an updated piston seal head, nothing else.

This is the old one








This is the new one


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Boom King said:


> It's only an updated piston seal head, nothing else.
> 
> This is the old one
> 
> ...


Thanks. I had just sent out my McLeod for repair work (video on that page) I brought up the updated parts for the Mattoc and they are taking care of the fork too.

After a lot of page skimming/reading in regards to the bath oil. I'm seeing Supergliss as the recommended oil. However I see pop ups for mobil1 synthetic and other brands of synthetic motor oil (redline, royal purple), as well as Fox Gold. What I haven't seen is the weights for the motor oil being used as the bath oil if someone goes that route.

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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Manitou Tech told me to use any synthetic 5w 40 oil. This was only a couple of weeks ago,


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Boom King said:


> Manitou Tech told me to use any synthetic 5w 40 oil. This was only a couple of weeks ago,


Roger that! So we are at either Supergliss or any synthetic 5w40 for bath oil (plus others mentioned) and 2.5wt motorex fork oil for the damper. Next is either Slick Honey or just plain jane Slickoleum. I did see that SRAM Butter is a product from Slickoleum. It seems easier to source for a more cost effective price. Will that be suitable or bite the dollar bullet and get the slicks?

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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

I was told 5wt Motorex or Maxima fork oil.


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

Boom King said:


> I was told 5wt Motorex or Maxima fork oil.


5wt for the Manitou variety since motorex made a special blend for them. The prior posts indicate that motorex 2.5 is what is to be used or maxima 5wt.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## CogHog (Jul 11, 2014)

double post


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## CogHog (Jul 11, 2014)

So I've been reading through this thread and it's one that helped me pull the trigger on the Mattoc Expert sitting in my garage. I'm currently recovering from a nasty collarbone break requiring surgery and planning to start a build on a Kona process 134. I can't quite wrench adequately at the moment since I'm still injured and my dominant arm is what got jacked up plus I don't want to mess up my new fork. 

So with that said I'm thinking about sending it to Manitou to lower to 150mm from 160mm and while its there having them upgrade to the new IRT piston (production date on the fork is 4/14 so it's an older one). I got it for $480 brand new shipped though so I thought that was a decent price even considering the upgrades I wanna do.

Anyway is there anything else I should get done? I'm just trying to take advantage of the time I have to get it ready to ride when I am and avoid any of the known issues I can. 

Thanks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CogHog said:


> So I've been reading through this thread and it's one that helped me pull the trigger on the Mattoc Expert sitting in my garage. I'm currently recovering from a nasty collarbone break requiring surgery and planning to start a build on a Kona process 134. I can't quite wrench adequately at the moment since I'm still injured and my dominant arm is what got jacked up plus I don't want to mess up my new fork.
> 
> So with that said I'm thinking about sending it to Manitou to lower to 150mm from 160mm and while its there having them upgrade to the new IRT piston (production date on the fork is 4/14 so it's an older one). I got it for $480 brand new shipped though so I thought that was a decent price even considering the upgrades I wanna do.
> 
> ...


Make sure they give you the new rebound damper as well. It's considered a warranty issue because 4 clicks is just not enough.


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## 98srx6 (Jun 25, 2012)

Highly recommend sending it back to manitou as they will also perform the air piston update for you. I have the same build, a process 134 with Mattoc fork. It's a very fun bike that inspires confidence. I have my fork set at 150mm and it works really well with the Konas geometry.


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## CogHog (Jul 11, 2014)

Thanks for the responses guys! 

I just sent them an email to see how much it'd be to do all of this. I'm usually pretty hands on with my bike in terms of maintenance but I'd hate to jack up a brand new fork I just dropped almost 5 bills on and I'm kind of operating with one and a half arms anyway. 

I'll see what their response is and get the things done you guys mentioned. 

Also 98 thanks for the mention of the Kona. In fact I think your bike is one I saw that persuaded me to go with the manitou. I contemplated keeping it at 160 but I'm afraid it might be a little much and 150 a better fit. 

Thanks!


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

Anyone have the OD of the 8mm socket that comes with the Mattoc tool kit?

I would like to replace the air piston head with the updated revision but I still cannot find anywhere with stock on the Mattoc tool kit.

Grinding down a socket for the top cap isn't a big deal and the Park FR-5 isn't a big deal but the thin walled socket is a bit of a pain to source.


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## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

You can use the 4mm allen method. Not the fastest way to do it but it will get the job done.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Not a fan of the 4mm Allen method, it's a pain in ass when reinstalling. I ground a socket down to a little over 10mm OD and it's perfect.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

Outdoor Sports via Amazon claims to have stock at 69.99

Other sites like Universal, BTI, etc show out of stock and sites like Bike-discount.de and a few others are showing 20 days or more until stock.

Will give the 10mm OD action a shot in the interim.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal told me his are 10mm OD. Make sure you get a 6 point socket.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Has anyone played around with splash oil? Just rebuilding the forks at the moment (new air piston seal, rebound shaft) been running Fox Gold and the inners were very well coated. 

Wondering if it is worth trying some motor oil or just sticking to the Fox Gold?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

If you have fox gold, just use it. I tried Mobil 1 full synthetic in my marvel and it's just not the same as good fork oil. I use Maxima myself (cause it was cheaper and easier to get at the time) but fox gold is a huge favorite for manitou forks. I'd just stick with it myself.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

tigris99 said:


> If you have fox gold, just use it. I tried Mobil 1 full synthetic in my marvel and it's just not the same as good fork oil. I use Maxima myself (cause it was cheaper and easier to get at the time) but fox gold is a huge favorite for manitou forks. I'd just stick with it myself.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Cheers, seems to be doing the job nicely so will stick with it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Has anyone played around with splash oil? Just rebuilding the forks at the moment (new air piston seal, rebound shaft) been running Fox Gold and the inners were very well coated.
> 
> Wondering if it is worth trying some motor oil or just sticking to the Fox Gold?


Plenty of options. I believe the factory and race guys are using a Maxima 5w40:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BC1orXOTRpN/
I use Motorex Supergliss.

I believe Rockshox are using 0w30 Maxima Ultra4.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Plenty of options. I believe the factory and race guys are using a Maxima 5w40:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BC1orXOTRpN/
> ...


Cheers Dougal, from my reading Supergliss is similiar to Fox gold. I have a large bottle so will use that as looks to be doing a good job.


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

Question to all you Manitou experts: will a 27.5 Magnum @140mm fit a normal 29er tire. Say a minion 2.3 or 2.5? 

So if I lace a normal 29er hoop on a boost 110 hub and roll with a regular 29er tire, High Roller or Minion, would that be a feasible option? Will there be cleareance issues?

thanks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

zoro said:


> Question to all you Manitou experts: will a 27.5 Magnum @140mm fit a normal 29er tire. Say a minion 2.3 or 2.5?
> 
> So if I lace a normal 29er hoop on a boost 110 hub and roll with a regular 29er tire, High Roller or Minion, would that be a feasible option? Will there be cleareance issues?
> 
> thanks!


It will work, though I'm not sure what kind of tires it works with. 27.5+ folks in general are listed as 27.5+/29" forks. I would say 2.3 should be fine, 2.5 may start cutting it close. I don't know of anyone who has tried it with a magnum yet though.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

zoro said:


> Question to all you Manitou experts: will a 27.5 Magnum @140mm fit a normal 29er tire. Say a minion 2.3 or 2.5?
> 
> So if I lace a normal 29er hoop on a boost 110 hub and roll with a regular 29er tire, High Roller or Minion, would that be a feasible option? Will there be cleareance issues?
> 
> thanks!


Yes. Part of the appeal of 27+ forks is they also work for 29". The Magnum 27+ is officially good for a 27x3.3" tyre which is about 750mm OD.
A 29x2.3" tyre is about 740mm OD.

Depending on the actual tyre dimensions you could safely run 29x2.5".


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Plenty of options. I believe the factory and race guys are using a Maxima 5w40:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BC1orXOTRpN/
> ...


Can confirm that Zac uses and highly recommends Maxima 5w40 for the semi-bath oil.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Whoa! Did a full rebuild on my forks, new air seal in, new rebound in (Expert model, now has 8 clicks of rebound), changed to Maxima 5wt damper oil (correct CST) and looks like I have found a happy setting for the IRT, (45psi main, 90psi IRT).

Fork is so smooth, just eats up small trail chatter and is not divey at all, used almost all of the 150mm on yesterdays ride and the extra rebound is very welcomed. 

Super happy with the fork and it's performance as well Manitou for sending out new rebound and air seal at no charge.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

*vacation rides in Colorado*

I rode my original Mattoc Expert on some epic trails around Breckenridge, Keystone and Vail last week. It did extremely well, but I see potential in the IRT, so I finally ordered one. (My LBS is useless, so I bought it from Germany.)

The highlight of the trip was a 18 mile loop, Keystone Gulch, starting at 10k feet altitude rising to 11,500 with a total of 3,000 feet of climbing over the whole ride. I'm from Kansas, which isn't totally flat, but it is a whole different world. The first 5 miles is a nearly continuous climb. We didn't have the cardio for it and had to take a number of short breaks.  The descent was by no means easy, or continuous. Short climbs that actually are longer than _any_ climb in Kansas covered the rest of the trail.

My two brothers-in-law rode it with me. About half the trail was less than 2 feet wide next to a steep mountainside drop. Riding it solo would be a good way to die, but we did see a lone rider here and there.. All the locals left us in the dust and we were the last ones back to the parking lot, but we were thrilled just to complete it.








The other major accomplishment was Vail. Fun trails there, but also a tremendous amount of climbing, which I can't imagine doing on an actual DH bike. There's no way to access the top trails near the bowls unless you ride up singletrack or walk hiking trails, and you have to ride singletrack or fire roads to bridge between the two gondolas. Keystone is much better UNLESS you have a mid-travel bike (which I do) and you really want to pedal uphill a lot (which I didn't - that day ). Besides my Mattoc, the biggest advantage my bike had over my BILs' bikes was brakes. Last year we all had XC / Trail type brakes. About two months ago I upgraded from Magura MT4 to SRAM Guide RSCs and to be honest, in Kansas, it's a relatively small difference. However in Colorado, the difference was monumental. Still got sore hands from sustained braking, but the power and endurance of the Guide brakes is unbelievable.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Whoa! Did a full rebuild on my forks, new air seal in, new rebound in (Expert model, now has 8 clicks of rebound), changed to Maxima 5wt damper oil (correct CST) and looks like I have found a happy setting for the IRT, (45psi main, 90psi IRT).
> 
> Fork is so smooth, just eats up small trail chatter and is not divey at all, used almost all of the 150mm on yesterdays ride and the extra rebound is very welcomed.
> 
> Super happy with the fork and it's performance as well Manitou for sending out new rebound and air seal at no charge.


I am running a very similar setting on my Manitou pro (50/90). I also use a mix of Mobil 1 (0/20) with a touch of Lucas Oil Stabilizer. This makes the bath oil a little bit more "clingy". Amazing fork that requires very little attention. Almost to a point of being boring. Nothing to do but ride it.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I am running a very similar setting on my Manitou pro (50/90). I also use a mix of Mobil 1 (0/20) with a touch of Lucas Oil Stabilizer. This makes the bath oil a little bit more "clingy". Amazing fork that requires very little attention. Almost to a point of being boring. Nothing to do but ride it.


I'm still messing with my IRT pressures. I think I'm running to high of pressure in the main chamber because of getting really high sag numbers if I don't. Im at 65/95 @150mm. I was running 70 without the IRT. I need to just ignore numbers I think, just feels weird to 35%


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I'm still messing with my IRT pressures. I think I'm running to high of pressure in the main chamber because of getting really high sag numbers if I don't. Im at 65/95 @150mm. I was running 70 without the IRT. I need to just ignore numbers I think, just feels weird to 35%


I would agree and ignore the numbers. I am 200lbs running a 160mm fork. I found 60/120 to give too stiff of a ride. The 50/90 was just perfect. I also found that all compression adjustments can be run at minimum levels.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I would agree and ignore the numbers. I am 200lbs running a 160mm fork. I found 60/120 to give too stiff of a ride. The 50/90 was just perfect. I also found that all compression adjustments can be run at minimum levels.


My issue is that even at 65/95 Im bottoming, even with full HBO. I just need to do more testing, maybe do something like 55/105. I haven't seen anyone else running 50+ psi difference between the two but it might be what I need to do. I was pretty happy with 70psi, full HBO, 3 clicks in hsc, 2 clicks in lsc. Worst-case I will go back to this.


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> My issue is that even at 65/95 Im bottoming, even with full HBO. I just need to do more testing, maybe do something like 55/105. I haven't seen anyone else running 50+ psi difference between the two but it might be what I need to do. I was pretty happy with 70psi, full HBO, 3 clicks in hsc, 2 clicks in lsc. Worst-case I will go back to this.


I have been running 50-55 main and 90-95 IRT. Definitely notice more of a difference in the small bump from 55psi than 50psi than I do anything from raising the IRT more. Rode a trail that I know well a couple weeks ago and dropped into a gully which is usually a pretty smooth 6' down and up, except I didn't notice the bottom had washed another 2' and exposed large rocks until I was well on my way in. Bottomed out the fork, but it handled it great and just a few pedal strokes I was out of the gully. Didn't have a pump so I upped the HBO to 3, LSC to 1, and HSC to 2. Went back and did the drop again, no bottoming but the extra compression did feel a bit harsher. I have since raised the IRT to 110psi and haven't noticed any bad side effects. Still is buttery smooth off the top at 50psi, offers nice support in mids and ramps up smoothly. Haven't bottomed since, but haven't hit that section of trail again yet. Haven't touched the rebound (at 3 from open) since it feels the same, maybe a bit more pop, but it's been dry as a popcorn fart here lately which may have an affect on that.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> My issue is that even at 65/95 Im bottoming, even with full HBO. I just need to do more testing, maybe do something like 55/105. I haven't seen anyone else running 50+ psi difference between the two but it might be what I need to do. I was pretty happy with 70psi, full HBO, 3 clicks in hsc, 2 clicks in lsc. Worst-case I will go back to this.


I'm in similar ballpark weight, and your original PSI.
I'm now running 65psi main, 110psi IRT.
0 LSC, 2 HSC, 0 HBO

BUT I've serviced mine with super slick PTFE grease which has done wonders for the sensitivity (had to up rebound 2clicks)!
Even with the main chamber @65PSI it just gobbles up the chatter without sagging too far, or bottoming out hard.

I really wouldn't be worried about +50PSI difference in the pressures, and if the only issue you've got is the bottoming, then just raise the IRT up to 115 to give the extra increase in ending spring rate and soften the bottoming enough that the HBO is saved for the biggest of hits.
That is the benefit of IRT, being able to tune the spring curve more .


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> My issue is that even at 65/95 Im bottoming, even with full HBO. I just need to do more testing, maybe do something like 55/105. I haven't seen anyone else running 50+ psi difference between the two but it might be what I need to do. I was pretty happy with 70psi, full HBO, 3 clicks in hsc, 2 clicks in lsc. Worst-case I will go back to this.


Wow, that is odd. I would keep adding to the IRT till you get the feel you like. I don't think there is any harm.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Wow, that is odd. I would keep adding to the IRT till you get the feel you like. I don't think there is any harm.


I just need to play with it, only had it for 2 rides. For a light weight, I use a lot of travel because I'm very aggressive on decents. Jumping to flat is somewhat common for me. I read what most people use as set ups are and forget at times that I'm usually quite different.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Second ride after rebuilding the fork and it's getting stuck down. 

Attach pump to main chamber and can extend the fork but it only stays like that for a few compressions and gets stuck down again. 

Any tips as to where to start trouble shooting?


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## 98srx6 (Jun 25, 2012)

Make sure the poppet valve is adjusted correctly.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Second ride after rebuilding the fork and it's getting stuck down.
> 
> Attach pump to main chamber and can extend the fork but it only stays like that for a few compressions and gets stuck down again.
> 
> Any tips as to where to start trouble shooting?


The air piston oring is the one to check. Provided it's not leaking air out the top-cap. Basically if pressure is dropping then you have an external leak. If pressure remains but the fork drops then it's an internal leak which is either the piston quad seal or the valve inside it.

Check the quad seal didn't get rolled. There was a pic here a few weeks back showing exactly that.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

98srx6 said:


> Make sure the poppet valve is adjusted correctly.





Dougal said:


> The air piston oring is the one to check. Provided it's not leaking air out the top-cap. Basically if pressure is dropping then you have an external leak. If pressure remains but the fork drops then it's an internal leak which is either the piston quad seal or the valve inside it.
> 
> Check the quad seal didn't get rolled. There was a pic here a few weeks back showing exactly that.


Thanks for the replies, no pressure drop so pulled the lowers and checked the air seal, seal is all flush, no rolling. Poppet valve was flush with end of piston, wound it out a bit but now everytime I air up and then undo the pump all the air drops out.

Presume I have wound the poppet out too far and need to wind it back in a bit?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> My issue is that even at 65/95 Im bottoming, even with full HBO. I just need to do more testing, maybe do something like 55/105. I haven't seen anyone else running 50+ psi difference between the two but it might be what I need to do. I was pretty happy with 70psi, full HBO, 3 clicks in hsc, 2 clicks in lsc. Worst-case I will go back to this.


You know, I do feel that you can get the almost same ride without the IRT using the compression adjustments. Maybe a little better mid-stroke with the IRT but honestly, the stock compression adjustments are very effective.


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## Sectornaut (Jan 29, 2016)

shiny said:


> Thanks for the replies, no pressure drop so pulled the lowers and checked the air seal, seal is all flush, no rolling. Poppet valve was flush with end of piston, wound it out a bit but now everytime I air up and then undo the pump all the air drops out.
> 
> Presume I have wound the poppet out too far and need to wind it back in a bit?


You should also inspect the quad seal on the piston for debris. a piece of hair or other debris on the seal can cause air to bypass the piston.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Second ride after rebuilding the fork and it's getting stuck down.
> 
> Attach pump to main chamber and can extend the fork but it only stays like that for a few compressions and gets stuck down again.
> 
> Any tips as to where to start trouble shooting?


Did you use grease on the air piston and not oil? Somehow there is air getting past the seal .


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Thanks for the replies, no pressure drop so pulled the lowers and checked the air seal, seal is all flush, no rolling. Poppet valve was flush with end of piston, wound it out a bit but now everytime I air up and then undo the pump all the air drops out.
> 
> Presume I have wound the poppet out too far and need to wind it back in a bit?


I use 1.3mm for air valve protrusion. Make sure it is pushed out when you measure.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> You know, I do feel that you can get the almost same ride without the IRT using the compression adjustments. Maybe a little better mid-stroke with the IRT but honestly, the stock compression adjustments are very effective.


Exactly. The irt should be used to control ride height in places where you have a lot of weight forward. Like crawling down steep technical parts.

The compression damping and hbo are the tools to use to prevent hard bottom out.

Spring and damper cannot do each others job.


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## dallasdownunder (May 5, 2016)

*Mattoc Pro 2*

Is there anywhere selling the Mattoc Pro 2 yet?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Sectornaut said:


> You should also inspect the quad seal on the piston for debris. a piece of hair or other debris on the seal can cause air to bypass the piston.





Vespasianus said:


> Did you use grease on the air piston and not oil? Somehow there is air getting past the seal .





Dougal said:


> I use 1.3mm for air valve protrusion. Make sure it is pushed out when you measure.


Well after disassembling and reassembling my fork several times looks like it is fixed

Poppet is just sticking out the end of air side, still getting 5-10mm stuck down, have attached the pump and pulled lowers but as soon as I compress it does it again. Not too fussed at this stage as I don't really want to pull them apart again.

Grease only on air piston, hopefully get out for a ride tomorrow and see how it behaves.

Thanks again for the replies.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dallasdownunder said:


> Is there anywhere selling the Mattoc Pro 2 yet?


Manitou only have them in stock in white right now. So probably not. Other colours will be getting close though.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

shiny said:


> Well after disassembling and reassembling my fork several times looks like it is fixed
> 
> Poppet is just sticking out the end of air side, still getting 5-10mm stuck down, have attached the pump and pulled lowers but as soon as I compress it does it again. Not too fussed at this stage as I don't really want to pull them apart again.
> 
> ...


When reassembling make sure you've got the lowers fully extended when you tighten the foot nuts.
If not you can end up with a bit of a vacuum I the lowers which upsets the air spring balance. Sucking it down into the travel like you're seeing.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

scar4me said:


> When reassembling make sure you've got the lowers fully extended when you tighten the foot nuts.
> If not you can end up with a bit of a vacuum I the lowers which upsets the air spring balance. Sucking it down into the travel like you're seeing.


Thanks, I find I have to push down to get the rebound side to contact the thread on the casting. It's looks easy on the service vid but I find I just end up pushing the rebound rod in. No riding today as rained all day, will look to try and rebolt the lowers later this week.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

shiny said:


> Thanks, I find I have to push down to get the rebound side to contact the thread on the casting. It's looks easy on the service vid but I find I just end up pushing the rebound rod in. No riding today as rained all day, will look to try and rebolt the lowers later this week.


You have to compress it a bit to get it to seat in the threads to start, but then pull it up to fully extend whilst doing them up tight.


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

I have a 160mm Mattoc Expert with IRT. When I first installed the fork it was only using 130mm of travel. After about a dozen rides I started experiencing a couple "clicks" or "creaks" upon pressing the forks down.

So....I tore it down without removing the air spring/damper slides and the oil in the damper was too high. I took a little out and it measured perfect. I then removed the stock grease from the seals and put in Sram butter (AKA Slickolium). The fork felt amazing after re-assembly. I rode it for a park day at Keystone and the performance is pretty great.

However, the "creak" remains. If I hold my front brake and rock the bike back/forth (like checking for a loose headset) I can feel SLIGHT movement between the stanchion and the lowers on the damper side. It's not noticeable on the air spring side. Maybe this is normal but maybe not? 

I am an torque wrench geek and a decent mechanic so all of the other common creak causes have been checked (headset, cables, skewer, etc.). I checked torque of lower bolts on the fork and all is well.

Has anyone else experienced this? It was not this way with my Pike I had previously and now I'm having a recurring noise that seems to be coming from the fork. Thanks!


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Contact manitou support. I think there were a few people who reported crown creak/clicking.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

I've sent my Mattoc back twice for creaking, it seems like I get 6-7 months of use out it before the crown starts to creak again. If it goes again, I might start looking into another fork. Its amazing fork, I wonder if they solved this issue with their second gen Mattocs, mine was assembled August 2014.


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

Between having to service a brand new fork after less than 20 hours and then this I'm regretting this purchase. I had my Pike on my bike for 2 years with nothing but oil and seal changes. 

Anyone on the market for a like-new Mattoc with an IRT?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

louevil said:


> Between having to service a brand new fork after less than 20 hours and then this I'm regretting this purchase. I had my Pike on my bike for 2 years with nothing but oil and seal changes.
> 
> Anyone on the market for a like-new Mattoc with an IRT?


That's not much of a sales pitch, as it were.

I'd have it repaired by Manitou, then sell, if you're so inclined.


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

ColinL said:


> That's not much of a sales pitch, as it were.
> 
> I'd have it repaired by Manitou, then sell, if you're so inclined.


I was joking about selling it. Compared to the Pike this fork performs much better, especially under hard-charging conditions. This is mountain biking and shi%^ happens. I sent them a message and will update accordingly. They are a great company and I'm sure they will take care of it. It's just annoying to have to deal with a new product having issues.

Luckily I didn't sell my Pike in anticipation for such an issue...


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Just popping my head back in, and doesnt look like anything has changed. Really wish Manitou would sort their QAQC, because there's no doubt they make some good products.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhyolite said:


> Just popping my head back in, and doesnt look like anything has changed. Really wish Manitou would sort their QAQC, because there's no doubt they make some good products.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


You should probably go talk to the thousands of people riding happily. I've had no issues with either of mine. Other than the oil cst issue which was my own fault.

Internet tech talk is about helping those with problems. Like doctors who only see sick people.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> You should probably go talk to the thousands of people riding happily. I've had no issues with either of mine. Other than the oil cst issue which was my own fault.
> 
> Internet tech talk is about helping those with problems. Like doctors who only see sick people.


not to mention... what fork is perfect? rockshox pike first gen was well loved, yet many had bladder and rebound seal issues. fox had a bad run of 36s. etc


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## louevil (Mar 1, 2012)

Quick update-Manitou is taking care of me. They responded within hours!

It's interesting to now have the Pike on. The Mattoc stays more composed under hard riding. The Pike feels marginally more smooth in the first 20-40 percent of travel (parking lot test) but once you get past that, the Mattoc is more linear and smooth. It also takes big hits better thanks in-part to the IRT. Both forks have been setup very well for my weight and have just had a full service. I'm glad I made the purchase despite the setbacks.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

rhyolite said:


> Just popping my head back in, and doesnt look like anything has changed. Really wish Manitou would sort their QAQC, because there's no doubt they make some good products.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Way too broad of a generalization. Lots of people with Mattoc's and Magnums that are working great.


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

Why did I stir the pot?! 

Manitou have always had quality issues. Everyone who has been involved in mountain bikes for a significant period of time knows this. Not conceding this just highlights the fan boy-ism in this thread.

Comparisons to recent Fox and RS issues are not valid either. There are probably 100 of those products out there for every Manitou fork. The % with significant almost immediate functionality problems would be very different. To my knowledge, no recent fork from one of the majors has a recurring problem that requires multiple rebuilds almost straight out of the box. I understand this hasn't been true with all Mattocs, but it's really a numbers (percentage) game and it highlights what I mentioned in my initial post.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

I will say from the Dorado, Mattoc, and McLeod i am currently on i haven't had too much issue with them. The mattoc had an issue but Manitou was beyond helful. Performance wise my Manitou stuff has bested my Rock Shox and Fox experience. Manitou has handled any issue i have had in my favor....more than i can say for Fox for sure.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rhyolite said:


> Why did I stir the pot?!
> 
> Manitou have always had quality issues. Everyone who has been involved in mountain bikes for a significant period of time knows this. Not conceding this just highlights the fan boy-ism in this thread.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you're on about and I'm sure others are thinking the same?

Do you have a problem with your Mattoc? Do you even have a Mattoc?
What is this recurring problem that requires multiple rebuilds?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I have no idea what you're on about and I'm sure others are thinking the same?
> 
> Do you have a problem with your Mattoc? Do you even have a Mattoc?
> What is this recurring problem that requires multiple rebuilds?


He was here about a year ago and had some issues including travel suck down and limited travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> He was here about a year ago and had some issues including travel suck down and limited travel.


Oh right. He's the guy in Australia who kept pulling his Mattoc apart until it didn't work any longer.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Oh right. He's the guy in Australia who kept pulling his Mattoc apart until it didn't work any longer.


:lol:

harsh, but true. I would not take apart my damper and I consider myself reasonably handy with a wrench.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> :lol:
> 
> harsh, but true. I would not take apart my damper and I consider myself reasonably handy with a wrench.


I've had about three of them apart. They're not for the faint hearted and while they can come apart in several different ways, they can only go back together in one order! 
I did offer to fix that guys MC2 damper if he posted it over to NZ. But he didn't take up the offer.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

meSSican said:


> Performance wise my Manitou stuff has bested my Rock Shox and Fox experience.


How would you rate the stiffness of the Mattoc vs the others?


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## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm about 220 lbs and riding the bike I do not notice any issues with stiffness. When pushing on the wheel I notice some flex. Maybe it isn't a huge deal for me but never notice flex or does it hinder my riding. I also have a Dorado on my DH bike with no issues.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Nice. I'm ~ 210 geared up, just what I wanted to hear.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

As for Stifness... 
It's difficult to judge as it's quite personal.
I'm 210 geared up, and I don't notice it. 
Occasionally if I really hammer into rough boulders at high speed you can feel it ever so slightly. But as above doesn't ever feel vague at all, and doesn't take away any confidence that it'll be able to gobble up even more.

Personal opinion:

Stiffer than:
Xfusion Slant\Sweep
Fox 34

Level with:
BOS Deville
Marzocchi 55

Less than:
Fox 36
Xfusion Vengeance\metric
Marzocchi 66


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Good review from Enduro mag on the Mattoc:

The best 160 mm MTB fork you can buy | Page 4 of 12 | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine

Scar4me thanks for the tips on re-assembling the lowers. Issue seems to have fixed itself but will follow your procedure when I rebuild them next.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shiny said:


> Good review from Enduro mag on the Mattoc:
> 
> The best 160 mm MTB fork you can buy | Page 4 of 12 | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine
> 
> Scar4me thanks for the tips on re-assembling the lowers. Issue seems to have fixed itself but will follow your procedure when I rebuild them next.


Good review. I agree about the cable routing being bad. There is a better way to do it then what manitou cable guides show you to do. I get annoyed with comments like "narrow stance" as well because it's not. Good, positive review though.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> Good review. I agree about the cable routing being bad. There is a better way to do it then what manitou cable guides show you to do. I get annoyed with comments like "narrow stance" as well because it's not. Good, positive review though.


Agree on the cable routing as well, sent an email to Manitou with suggestions but they said they are happy with the current setup.

IRT makes such a difference to mid stroke I wonder if they will ever include it standard. I guess though from a consumer level one air chamber to fill rather than two is easier but Rock Shox did it with the dual air forks.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Good review. I agree about the cable routing being bad. There is a better way to do it then what manitou cable guides show you to do. I get annoyed with comments like "narrow stance" as well because it's not. Good, positive review though.


Can you post up a pic of your better way please?

Cheers.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> Can you post up a pic of your better way please?
> 
> Cheers.


No cable rub on the crown this way.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

I ignore the reversed arch routing n just run it round the inside of the leg by the wheel, and cable tied at the front where the arch starts. But that's for uk brake setup (front brake on the right).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

scar4me said:


> I ignore the reversed arch routing n just run it round the inside of the leg by the wheel, and cable tied at the front where the arch starts. But that's for uk brake setup (front brake on the right).


Me too. I run the cable tie through the same boss they cast on the back of the leg. It stops it moving up and down and means it doesn't need to be too tight.


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## MonkeyPuzzle (Aug 9, 2016)

Long-time lurker, first time poster here.

Anyway of knowing by the serial number whether I have the newer or older air-piston or not, and will Prep-M still work with the newer piston, or is getting some Slickoleum recommended?

Also, I ordered a Mattoc Tool Kit in early May from Bike-Components.de and they've just put the delivery date back *again*, now until 26/08. Boo hiss.


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## Silliker269 (Aug 14, 2014)

Hey gents, love the fork but seems I have to rebuild (grease and oil ) more then usual to keep it running smooth. Anyone find upgraded seals for it (dustwipers?) . 
I think some dirt and water maybe bypassing 
Thanks


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Silliker269 said:


> Hey gents, love the fork but seems I have to rebuild (grease and oil ) more then usual to keep it running smooth. Anyone find upgraded seals for it (dustwipers?) .
> I think some dirt and water maybe bypassing
> Thanks


Been thinking about this myself. My wife's marvel has major stiction at the seals and my Mattoc could use a little improving here as well. Was thinking of trying push seals, though I'm not sure if the Fox versions will fit or not.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Been thinking about this myself. My wife's marvel has major stiction at the seals and my Mattoc could use a little improving here as well. Was thinking of trying push seals, though I'm not sure if the Fox versions will fit or not.


I'm still running the stock seals n get zero stiction.
Just get some slick honey in them.
If you can get some 00 super slick silicone PTFE grease.

The manitou seals are a good fit, but need the best lube you can get to make them feel the best.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

scar4me said:


> I'm still running the stock seals n get zero stiction.
> Just get some slick honey in them.
> If you can get some 00 super slick silicone PTFE grease.
> 
> The manitou seals are a good fit, but need the best lube you can get to make them feel the best.


I have to rebuild my wife's marvel every 3 rides to keep is somewhat smooth. I use slick honey and Mobil 1 synthetic as bath oil. The stiction is very clearly at the seals as sliding the lowers on and off takes much more effort than other should. My Mattoc is much better, but still lacks the small bump sensitivity of it's rivals.

I will end up buying seals to try in the marvel first and possibly switch to Fox gold oil while I'm at it. I have talked to Manitou about it (on the marvel) and they acknowledged the issue. Kind of


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I thought the XC shim stack intentionally has a significant pedaling platform... ?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> I have to rebuild my wife's marvel every 3 rides to keep is somewhat smooth. I use slick honey and Mobil 1 synthetic as bath oil. The stiction is very clearly at the seals as sliding the lowers on and off takes much more effort than other should. My Mattoc is much better, but still lacks the small bump sensitivity of it's rivals.
> 
> I will end up buying seals to try in the marvel first and possibly switch to Fox gold oil while I'm at it. I have talked to Manitou about it (on the marvel) and they acknowledged the issue. Kind of


Ahh fair enough if you're already on slick honey.
I went left field when I tried the 00 silicone PTFE grease on them, but haven't looked back since.
Found it on fleabay over here in the uk. Can post a link if anyone's interested.
Worth a shot as way cheaper than a set of seals.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

scar4me said:


> Ahh fair enough if you're already on slick honey.
> I went left field when I tried the 00 silicone PTFE grease on them, but haven't looked back since.
> Found it on fleabay over here in the uk. Can post a link if anyone's interested.
> Worth a shot as way cheaper than a set of seals.


Yeah, I bought a giant tub of slick honey a while ago, it's good stuff. Manitou sends me little containers as well when they send me random stuff. I have narrowed the marvel to seals for sure. Whether or not I do anything with the Mattoc will depend on how much of a difference it makes on the marvel.

Running a linear compression stack btw.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Throwing my 2c in. Stock seals seem to do a great job keeping oil clean and good on friction. Push seals did not last for me at all and did not notice a reduction in friction. Currently on skf seals and they are doing a great job. I don't want to say they lower friction substantially vs stock but going off memory it feels a little better. 

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

croakies said:


> Throwing my 2c in. Stock seals seem to do a great job keeping oil clean and good on friction. Push seals did not last for me at all and did not notice a reduction in friction. Currently on skf seals and they are doing a great job. I don't want to say they lower friction substantially vs stock but going off memory it feels a little better.
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


Good to know. I didn't really want to spend 36 bucks on a maybe. Might try the new enduro seals instead. Manitou told me the seal material can harden and create extra friction over time. This might be what I'm experiencing on the marvel.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

I have found the stock seals on the Mattoc great at keeping crud out and seem to have very little stiction, I am running Fox gold as splash oil.

Only time I have had sticton issues is when I realised I installed the secondary seal under the dust seal upside down!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

The dust seals are one thing, the oil seal is another. That is what is most likely causing the stiction feel. I used to put a coating of oil/grease mix between the dust and oil seal but it can end up coming back up and causing more problems. I have heard of people dumping the oil seal and just running SKF seals.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I have to rebuild my wife's marvel every 3 rides to keep is somewhat smooth. I use slick honey and Mobil 1 synthetic as bath oil. The stiction is very clearly at the seals as sliding the lowers on and off takes much more effort than other should. My Mattoc is much better, but still lacks the small bump sensitivity of it's rivals.
> 
> I will end up buying seals to try in the marvel first and possibly switch to Fox gold oil while I'm at it. I have talked to Manitou about it (on the marvel) and they acknowledged the issue. Kind of


That's odd. My wife rides a Minute and I a Nixon with the same 32mm seals and no stiction issue. I use slickoleum on the top bushings and seals and supergliss as bath lube.
The supergliss is great above zero. I found recently at -6C it can get too thick for the seals to hold in and this caused some leakage. I'm working on a better cold temp lube but still love the supergliss.

Stiction on the seals is easy to test. Try sliding them on the stanchion before you put the fork back together.

I also haven't had any issue with stiction on the mattoc seals. I haven't had my red mattoc on for that long, only got it before my winter, but probably 20-30 rides and the fork is unopened with no issues. About 18 months on the first black Mattoc and it was sold on with the original seals.

But I can tell you that SKF seals made for Fox 32 and Fox 34 fit the Manitou 32 and 34mm forks.


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## Silliker269 (Aug 14, 2014)

Dougal said:


> That's odd. My wife rides a Minute and I a Nixon with the same 32mm seals and no stiction issue. I use slickoleum on the top bushings and seals and supergliss as bath lube.
> The supergliss is great above zero. I found recently at -6C it can get too thick for the seals to hold in and this caused some leakage. I'm working on a better cold temp lube but still love the supergliss.
> 
> Stiction on the seals is easy to test. Try sliding them on the stanchion before you put the fork back together.
> ...


Right on , how many rebuilds before you replace the seals and whatnot cause I havent done that yet haha


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Silliker269 said:


> Right on , how many rebuilds before you replace the seals and whatnot cause I havent done that yet haha


I only replace seals that leak. The more you service a fork the longer the seals normally last.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

scar4me said:


> I ignore the reversed arch routing n just run it round the inside of the leg by the wheel, and cable tied at the front where the arch starts. But that's for uk brake setup (front brake on the right).


I need to google image, but I imagine running the front brake on the left is never going to make the cable routing elegant, reverse arch or not.

I think having the lines short helps too.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I guess I'm a minority on this. All I care is my lines coming off my bars cross close to center and the line for the forks doesn't rub anywhere that matters.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

*hose routing*



Notched said:


> I need to google image, but I imagine running the front brake on the left is never going to make the cable routing elegant, reverse arch or not.
> 
> I think having the lines short helps too.
> View attachment 1087350


Naa, the cable runs round from the brake mount inside the lowers next to the spokes, and then is cable tied to the front in the middle. 
Look where the cable guide is on the back before the arch, and the cable is the direct opposite side of the lowers. (with the cable tie still going through the slot on the guide.

That way the hose has zero interference, and maximum flexibility when compressing through the travel.
With the routing in your pic there is a possibility of the hose loop getting pinched by the arch\crown or flexing over into the tyre at full compression.

I do it like this:


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

I run the front brake on the right so similar to others I run like a front arched fork and zip tie it to the leg:



This is the image Manitou sent me on how they run the brake cable:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shiny said:


> I run the front brake on the right so similar to others I run like a front arched fork and zip tie it to the leg:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the image Manitou sent me on how they run the brake cable:


That Manitou photo is funky. Any way that allows the cable to touch the crown is bad as the cable will rub the anodizing off in a few rides. Some interesting solutions here to avoid it.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> That Manitou photo is funky. Any way that allows the cable to touch the crown is bad as the cable will rub the anodizing off in a few rides. Some interesting solutions here to avoid it.


Do you know if there will be an upgrade for the mcleod,even a new shock or new fork from manitou on the eurobike?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Do you know if there will be an upgrade for the mcleod,even a new shock or new fork from manitou on the eurobike?


The only updates I know of are small updates that wouldnt warrant much press(on the McLeod), and I'm not sure if those are going to production or not. The only other project I'm aware of is still a ways away from any announcement. There are many projects I'm not aware of but I don't expect anything in the rear shock department.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> That Manitou photo is funky. Any way that allows the cable to touch the crown is bad as the cable will rub the anodizing off in a few rides. Some interesting solutions here to avoid it.


I don't have a Mattoc (yet) but I've had 2 Minutes and with both I ran the brake hose behind the crown like the bottom photo, doesn't rub the crown or tire. I also ziptie the hose to the arch to help keep it off the tire.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> That's odd. My wife rides a Minute and I a Nixon with the same 32mm seals and no stiction issue. I use slickoleum on the top bushings and seals and supergliss as bath lube.
> The supergliss is great above zero. I found recently at -6C it can get too thick for the seals to hold in and this caused some leakage. I'm working on a better cold temp lube but still love the supergliss.
> 
> Stiction on the seals is easy to test. Try sliding them on the stanchion before you put the fork back together.
> ...


I missed this post earlier. I can tell the stiction is at the seals on the marvel because, like you said, it takes quite a bit of force to move the lowers on and off. (more off because all the grease helps them slide when reinstalling, once that grease is gone after a few rides it returns.)

The oil I use works great in my Mattoc, so I don't think that's an issue. I'm about out anyway though so Im going to try something new anyway.

Good to know fox 34 fits a Mattoc, will make it easier in the future. My Mattoc seals are pretty stiction free, so I'm not too worried about them for now.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Got a tip of a fellow rider, run mine like this, ziptie across the crown, another through that one, the one on the crown can be tight (a bit of tape underneath for extra protection if you want). The ziptie that the brake line runs through shouldn't be too tight, allow for some movement.

















If you run your brakes motostyle I can see crossing behind the arch is better.


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## Sectornaut (Jan 29, 2016)

Interesting cable routing fellas. I've been running my cable behind the arch as suggested by Manitou for 2 season now. I'm pretty satisfied with it. Its clean, out of the way and has not rubbed the finish of the crown at all.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> That Manitou photo is funky. Any way that allows the cable to touch the crown is bad as the cable will rub the anodizing off in a few rides. Some interesting solutions here to avoid it.


It does not rub the crown. It just needs the correct length. When the fork works the bow will only get larger and distance further from the crown. I Do it the same way without problems. Taking This route it is only a Bit longer than on traditional forks ;-)


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

bansaiman said:


> It does not rub the crown. It just needs the correct length. When the fork works the bow will only get larger and distance further from the crown. I Do it the same way without problems. Taking This route it is only a Bit longer than on traditional forks ;-)


that's what I do. I come off the left side, across the front of the head tube, looped back to the crown, then the Manitou-provided bracket on the left leg. if you leave the hose slightly longer than necessary, it touches nothing before the crown unless you intentionally crank the bars 90deg to the left.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

A mate just modified a Park Tools FR-5 and an 8mm socket for me. Now I can fit the upgraded rebound and seal head. Sweet.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Timely pics of cable routing guys. Much appreciated.

After having my Mattoc setup on my trans-am 275 for a few months, I finally got around to shortening the travel to 140mm. Such an easy process that was.

But now that I did that, do you think I can get the cable routing nice again? not a chance. I have no idea how I used to have it, but I think I will have a go at the way the manitou guys pic is and see what happens.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Yeah, I bought a giant tub of slick honey a while ago, it's good stuff. Manitou sends me little containers as well when they send me random stuff. I have narrowed the marvel to seals for sure. Whether or not I do anything with the Mattoc will depend on how much of a difference it makes on the marvel.
> 
> Running a linear compression stack btw.


Please keep us posted on what works the best to address the stiction in the Marvel. I am currently using Slikoleum and any general Synthetic motor oil for semibath (Mobil 1 0W40, Rotella T6 5W40). It is difficult to source the Super Glis in small quantities in the US.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Please keep us posted on what works the best to address the stiction in the Marvel. I am currently using Slikoleum and any general Synthetic motor oil for semibath (Mobil 1 0W40, Rotella T6 5W40). It is difficult to source the Super Glis in small quantities in the US.


How slippery is the oil you are using? Stock bath oil is Maxima Maxum4 5W40 and this stuff works well.

I've found with synthetic engine oils it can be very very difficult to find a good slippery one. So the go-to recommendation for those is find what is working for others.

The supergliss is the best stuff I've found. But I can appreciate the availability issues. We can ship it internationally from shockcraft. But you have to email us.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Bought push seals for the Marvel and Fox gold oil. Push seals seemed to help a little, but not worth the money.

The gold oil on the other hand is amazing. Literally just drained the oil on my mattoc and put gold in, didn't actually pull the lowers off. Major improvement over any other bath oil I have tried. Everyone using synthetic motor oil should stop.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Bought push seals for the Marvel and Fox gold oil. Push seals seemed to help a little, but not worth the money.
> 
> The gold oil on the other hand is amazing. Literally just drained the oil on my mattoc and put gold in, didn't actually pull the lowers off. Major improvement over any other bath oil I have tried. Everyone using synthetic motor oil should stop.


What were you using prior?

Fox 20wt is okay. I'm 90% sure I've identified it. But motor oils run the range from excellent fork lubricants to crappy fork lubricants.

I should send you some supergliss. Email your postal address.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> What were you using prior?
> 
> Fox 20wt is okay. I'm 90% sure I've identified it. But motor oils run the range from excellent fork lubricants to crappy fork lubricants.
> 
> I should send you some supergliss. Email your postal address.


Just emailed re fluids to Australia Dougal. Cheers.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> What were you using prior?
> 
> Fox 20wt is okay. I'm 90% sure I've identified it. But motor oils run the range from excellent fork lubricants to crappy fork lubricants.
> 
> I should send you some supergliss. Email your postal address.


I had used a bunch of stuff, but settled on mobil1 synthetic 5w30. The jump from that to gold was much larger than I expected. I looked for supergliss but couldn't source it. I'd love to try it sometime.


----------



## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

For all those inclined to purchase off the germans, bike-discount.de has supergliss in stock as well.


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Redline 5w-40 works great. Similar viscosity at 40c to the Maxima fluid and fox gold, has moly in it, and sticks well to metal parts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## silentG (May 18, 2009)

On a different note I just received a notice from Chain Reaction that the Mattoc tool kit is in stock -

Manitou Mattoc Tool Kit | Chain Reaction Cycles

For the record I ended up ordering this from Dougal's company which was a great experience and didn't take that long considering that NZ is a long way from Arizona.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> What were you using prior?
> 
> Fox 20wt is okay. I'm 90% sure I've identified it. But motor oils run the range from excellent fork lubricants to crappy fork lubricants.
> 
> I should send you some supergliss. Email your postal address.


What's the cSt on supergliss Dougal?


----------



## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

[email protected] but its not a damping fluid so i think its less important about how thick it is, than how well it sticks to surfaces and how well it slides along those surfaces. There's a few alternatives around, its used as a slideway lubricant, I'm just not sure how well the seals would enjoy it, I would assume there wouldn't be any ridiculous additives in others but its easier for me to order Supergliss from Dougal than find out the hard way for myself...

Slideway oils | NISOTEC
Hitec, High Tech Engines Need Hi-Tec Oils, SLIDEWAYS OIL 32 to 680
RENEP C - Fuchs.

etc etc

edit: given theyre intended for industrial applications you're probably going to be hard pressed to find any with availability less than 5L as well...


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> What's the cSt on supergliss Dougal?


[email protected]
But
[email protected]

Which is why it will get past sub-standard wiper seals. Especially as it gets colder.

The main requirement for lube oils however isn't found on spec sheets. How well they stick and how slippery they are.

Do not. I repeat do not spill Supergliss on your workshop floor!


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Quick question. I'm installing the IRT-kit on my 2nd Mattoc. Would I only grease the seal itself or do you guys recommend greasing the stantion on which it slides as well?


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

CS645 said:


> Quick question. I'm installing the IRT-kit on my 2nd Mattoc. Would I only grease the seal itself or do you guys recommend greasing the stantion on which it slides as well?


I just slathered the seal with slicko and ran some around the cap thread as well.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Quick question. I'm installing the IRT-kit on my 2nd Mattoc. Would I only grease the seal itself or do you guys recommend greasing the stantion on which it slides as well?


Both sliding surfaces. Not a heap of grease, just enough to keep it sliding.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks guys! 

I'm curious how both forks will compare in feel.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I have to post this. 2min 52 seconds of Mattoc flattening out the trail:


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

I have dumb question converting Mattoc Pro 27.5 to 26. The compression rod of the 27.5 version has a 10mm spacer below and the 26er version has none. What will happen if I removed that spacer? Will it be the same as the 26er version?
I am asking because we want to try the Mattoc to my friend's bike at 170mm 26er.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

My understanding is that the lowers are slightly different. You've got 10mm more clearance to the arch and crown. So it'll be 10mm longer than the 170mm 26er if you removed that spacer. 

The spacer definitely is what gives you 160mm travel. Put all 3 in, and you have 140mm travel.


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

ColinL said:


> My understanding is that the lowers are slightly different. You've got 10mm more clearance to the arch and crown. So it'll be 10mm longer than the 170mm 26er if you removed that spacer.
> 
> The spacer definitely is what gives you 160mm travel. Put all 3 in, and you have 140mm travel.


Lowers are the same.

Just adjust as its written in manual https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV-B.pdf


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

RoboS said:


> Lowers are the same.
> 
> Just adjust as its written in manual https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV-B.pdf


...so what's making up the 10mm increased axle-to-crown length on the 27.5 version compared to 26, then?


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

ColinL said:


> ...so what's making up the 10mm increased axle-to-crown length on the 27.5 version compared to 26, then?


Lowers are designed for 27,5" wheels, but can accept 26". By removing spacer at the bottom of air shaft, you change A-C distance 10mm lower for the same amount of travel (going from 27.5" to 26"). By this it compensates geometry change.

EDIT: With 26" wheels in Mattoc i had huge gap/clearence between tire and arch (I have purchased as 26" version). Then I changed wheels to 2.5" and it looks normal now


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

magzky said:


> I have dumb question converting Mattoc Pro 27.5 to 26. The compression rod of the 27.5 version has a 10mm spacer below and the 26er version has none. What will happen if I removed that spacer? Will it be the same as the 26er version?
> I am asking because we want to try the Mattoc to my friend's bike at 170mm 26er.


!!BIG warning to anyone thinking of doing this!!!

Do not do it without changing the HBO rod at the top of the rebound damper!
That spacer is what stops it bottoming out metal on metal @the HBO in the damper. This would cause significant damage to the damper if ridden then way and bottomed out.

There are seperate HBO assembly parts for 26in and 27.5.

Also watch out for 27.5 tyre clearance to the top crown @ full compression if you do run 26in 170mm damper/travel spacer settings with a 27.5 wheel.

The forks should have shipped with the damper n travel adjust parts kit.
Mine was one of the original mattoc batches so didn't come with it, but just got hold of manitou tech support n they sent me the kit.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

scar4me said:


> !!BIG warning to anyone thinking of doing this!!!
> 
> Do not do it without changing the HBO rod at the top of the rebound damper!
> That spacer is what stops it bottoming out metal on metal @the HBO in the damper. This would cause significant damage to the damper if ridden then way and bottomed out.
> ...


Aha. There we go.

So, Magzky should just give his fork as-is for his 26" friend to try. Yes, it's 'only' 160mm. It's still a Mattoc.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

ColinL said:


> Aha. There we go.
> 
> So, Magzky should just give his fork as-is for his 26" friend to try. Yes, it's 'only' 160mm. It's still a Mattoc.


Unless, of course, they want 170mm travel. I'm running mine set at 160mm with 26" wheels which is fine. I do, however, need to fit the upgraded piston seal head and rebound assembly, so i figured I may change to 170mm as I'll have the fork apart anyway.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Travel change video


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

I totally forgot about the HBO assembly and yes I have the kit with me.
So with the HBO kit for the 26er fitted and the all spacers removed will it then achieve the 170mm?


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

This diagram should have come with your fork







shows set up for all options.


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

ColinL said:


> Aha. There we go.
> 
> So, Magzky should just give his fork as-is for his 26" friend to try. Yes, it's 'only' 160mm. It's still a Mattoc.


I think we'll go with this option for safety reasons also even if we play with the internals the lowers will still be the same. If someone will correct me the 170mm can only be achievable using the 26 lowers. And of course it's still a Mattoc


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

magzky said:


> I think we'll go with this option for safety reasons also even if we play with the internals the lowers will still be the same. If someone will correct me the 170mm can only be achievable using the 26 lowers. And of course it's still a Mattoc


There is no difference in the lowers. There are different offsets available in the crown, but these are for handling reasons. There is no difference in length or clearance.

170mm is only acheivable by removing the 10mm spacers and installing the shorter 26" HBO cone. At this point the fork can compress another 10mm which is only safe with 26" wheels.


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Dougal said:


> There is no difference in the lowers. There are different offsets available in the crown, but these are for handling reasons. There is no difference in length or clearance.
> 
> 170mm is only acheivable by removing the 10mm spacers and installing the shorter 26" HBO cone. At this point the fork can compress another 10mm which is only safe with 26" wheels.


:thumbsup:
Alright got it.

Thank you guys for your inputs. Really appreciate it.


----------



## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

On the latest mattocs, what is the difference between expert and pro? Previously, i think experts only had 4 clicks of rebound. Is this still true? The expert weighs more because its a semi open bath with more oil?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

92SE-R said:


> On the latest mattocs, what is the difference between expert and pro? Previously, i think experts only had 4 clicks of rebound. Is this still true? The expert weighs more because its a semi open bath with more oil?


The latest mattoc 2 is pro only for aftermarket. But the expert is still available.

The expert was heavier due to a damper that filled the whole stanchion with oil instead of just the cartridge for rebound. It also had a different rebound adjuster range.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The latest mattoc 2 is pro only for aftermarket. But the expert is still available.
> 
> The expert was heavier due to a damper that filled the whole stanchion with oil instead of just the cartridge for rebound. It also had a different rebound adjuster range.


Only the first production run of expert mattocs had the 4 clicks of rebound. They now have 9 clicks of adjustment. If anyone has a 2014 mattoc expert with 4 clicks and finds themselves in between clicks, email manitou and they will mail you a updated rebound damper as a warranty claim. Some people find the 4 clicks to be sufficient, others don't. The only difference between the two is number of clicks, so if you find 4 works for you, ignore this.


----------



## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

What does the mattoc2 get you? Any performance differences between pro and expert?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

magzky said:


> I have dumb question converting Mattoc Pro 27.5 to 26. The compression rod of the 27.5 version has a 10mm spacer below and the 26er version has none. What will happen if I removed that spacer? Will it be the same as the 26er version?
> I am asking because we want to try the Mattoc to my friend's bike at 170mm 26er.


IVA standard (some Late model regular mattocs had this as well) and the new air piston as well. Also has hexlock sl which is the tooled version rather than the QR version. That's a matter of preference on if it's an upgrade or not, but it is lighter.

Overall performance is going to be pretty much the same, but reliability will be increased.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Only the first production run of expert mattocs had the 4 clicks of rebound. They now have 9 clicks of adjustment. If anyone has a 2014 mattoc expert with 4 clicks and finds themselves in between clicks, email manitou and they will mail you a updated rebound damper as a warranty claim. Some people find the 4 clicks to be sufficient, others don't. The only difference between the two is number of clicks, so if you find 4 works for you, ignore this.


My Pro's I think have 11 clicks.

The Mattoc Pro 2 has the new 6mm allen key Hexlock SL axle and the IVA spacers stock. I haven't seen or heard of an update to the Expert.


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Dougal said:


> My Pro's I think have 11 clicks.
> 
> The Mattoc Pro 2 has the new 6mm allen key Hexlock SL axle and the IVA spacers stock. I haven't seen or heard of an update to the Expert.


I have a Mattoc Pro 2 and until now I don't know how many clicks does the rebound have.



magzky said:


> Hi guys. Noob here. I just got my Manitou Mattoc Pro yesterday and reading the manual and this thread I should be getting 9 clicks for rebound. I fiddled with the knobs last night and i just got 8 clicks of rebound. Does someone else gets only 8 clicks, I mean from full close to full open only 8 clicks or does the full close or full open count as 1 click?


----------



## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Bergamont Trailster Bikes - EUROBIKE - 2017 Enduro and Trail Bikes - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Stratus said:


> Bergamont Trailster Bikes - EUROBIKE - 2017 Enduro and Trail Bikes - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB


quite amusing that the highest performing fork is on the cheapest complete bike... :lol:


----------



## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Yeah, now you mention it.  And Manitou Jacks all round!


----------



## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Mattoc pro to get IRT as standard?

Eurobike: Manitou 2017 ? Neues zu Mattoc, Lenkern & Handschuhen


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shmity said:


> Mattoc pro to get IRT as standard?
> 
> Eurobike: Manitou 2017 ? Neues zu Mattoc, Lenkern & Handschuhen


Google translate says IRT is available aftermarket. From what I know, IRT will always be aftermarket because it's more complicated to set up then IVA for average riders.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

> Die Manitou Mattoc Pro kommt nicht nur mit überarbeitetem Design, sondern auch mit Änderungen im Innenleben daher. So bekommt die Gabel die MRD IRT-Technologie, die aus der Dorado bekannt ist und schon als Nachrüst-Kit für die Mattoc verfügbar war.


I'll translate for you guys, the text says:

The Mattoc Pro not only get's a new design, but also reworks to it's internals. It will get the MRD IRT-technologie from the Dorado which was already available as an aftermarket item.

So this text claims that it will be standard on the newest Mattoc Pro, which would be a really smart move from Manitou in my book. Let that fork shine from the get go, good for sales, good for marketing and good for your customers too.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> I'll translate for you guys, the text says:
> 
> The Mattoc Pro not only get's a new design, but also reworks to it's internals. It will get the MRD IRT-technologie from the Dorado which was already available as an aftermarket item.
> 
> So this text claims that it will be standard on the newest Mattoc Pro, which would be a really smart move from Manitou in my book. Let that fork shine from the get go, good for sales, good for marketing and good for your customers too.


This is at odds with everything I have from Manitou.

Just pointing that out. The Mattoc Pro 2 is IVA on every document I have. I suspect this is a loss in translation or loss of understanding somewhere.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> This is at odds with everything I have from Manitou.
> 
> Just pointing that out. The Mattoc Pro 2 is IVA on every document I have. I suspect this is a loss in translation or loss of understanding somewhere.


Yes, that is also how I understood it previously, so you're probably right, they misunderstood. That said, I think supplying the Pro with the IRT would be a better choice, cause even though it will make it more expensive compared to IVA, it really makes it stand out from the competition and allows the fork to shine. They could keep the IVA standard on the Expert and differentiate the price between both forks a bit more.


----------



## P_Nut (Sep 16, 2016)

Hi guys,

I have bought Manitou Mattoc Expert fork two weeks ago from CRC. At first, the fork did ride great, but after a couple of rides (i think today was the 4th ride), the fork developed weird clicking noise when it extends. When the fork compresses there is no noise, only when it extends. It is the same at the beginning or in the middle of the travel. So when the fork is doing its work its very rattly, like it's going to fall apart, especially on roots. It's also very annoying on climbs because the fork bobs very slightly and for every pedal stroke i hear: click-click-click...

Here is a short video: 




Any ideas? Is it a case of sending the fork back on warranty or is it an easily fixable problem? I have written to Manitou support mail but they do not answer back.

Thanks


----------



## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

That's a new one to me. Have you noticed any change in performance with the noise? Does it make the sound if you slow the rebound? It sounds like a harsh top out of the rebound stroke.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

P_Nut said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have bought Manitou Mattoc Expert fork two weeks ago from CRC. At first, the fork did ride great, but after a couple of rides (i think today was the 4th ride), the fork developed weird clicking noise when it extends. When the fork compresses there is no noise, only when it extends. It is the same at the beginning or in the middle of the travel. So when the fork is doing its work its very rattly, like it's going to fall apart, especially on roots. It's also very annoying on climbs because the fork bobs very slightly and for every pedal stroke i hear: click-click-click...
> 
> ...


That's a new one.....

Have you removed the fender and isolated the brake cable to be sure it's coming from the fork? Also check the axle is tight and the footnuts are tight. If all that checks out OK, it's a warranty claim. Likely something on the rebound checkplate.

A few guys are out of the office this week, so response times might be slower than normal. If you don't get a response by Monday afternoon, try again or send me a pm.


----------



## Syncro (Apr 20, 2014)

I have a 2015 Mattoc Expert. Anyone try to run a 2.8 tire in one? I don't think it would fit, but wondering how close it'd be. It fit my Maxxis 2.5 just fine, but I know Maxxis tires run a bit undersized.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

P_Nut said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have bought Manitou Mattoc Expert fork two weeks ago from CRC. At first, the fork did ride great, but after a couple of rides (i think today was the 4th ride), the fork developed weird clicking noise when it extends. When the fork compresses there is no noise, only when it extends. It is the same at the beginning or in the middle of the travel. So when the fork is doing its work its very rattly, like it's going to fall apart, especially on roots. It's also very annoying on climbs because the fork bobs very slightly and for every pedal stroke i hear: click-click-click...
> 
> ...


Mine did something similar. I sent it to Dougal for a warranty repair. Turns out the rebound assembly had unscrewed itself from the stanchion and dumped all the oil into the lowers.

He said he'd never seen it happen before.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Mine did something similar. I sent it to Dougal for a warranty repair. Turns out the rebound assembly had unscrewed itself from the stanchion and dumped all the oil into the lowers.
> 
> He said he'd never seen it happen before.


I haven't seen that since either!


----------



## P_Nut (Sep 16, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> That's a new one.....
> 
> Have you removed the fender and isolated the brake cable to be sure it's coming from the fork? Also check the axle is tight and the footnuts are tight. If all that checks out OK, it's a warranty claim. Likely something on the rebound checkplate.
> 
> A few guys are out of the office this week, so response times might be slower than normal. If you don't get a response by Monday afternoon, try again or send me a pm.


Still no response from the Manitou support. Dissapointing. Thanks for the help though.

Anyway, i disassembled the fork to see if the noise is coming from somewhere else, but it's still the same. It does matter how I set the rebound. With the rebound set all the way to max (+), the noise is louder and harsher (i can feel it my hands).






Sucks.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

P_Nut said:


> Still no response from the Manitou support. Dissapointing. Thanks for the help though.
> 
> Anyway, i disassembled the fork to see if the noise is coming from somewhere else, but it's still the same. It does matter how I set the rebound. With the rebound set all the way to max (+), the noise is louder and harsher (i can feel it my hands).
> 
> ...


Pm me your email address


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Quick question, my second Mattoc was about 5ml overfilled with oil like my first one.

Does this only influence the amount the suspension travel or does this also influence how the fork feels before reaching full travel?

I'm asking because is seems to move more freely now, but I could be mistaken.


----------



## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

That fork sounds like theres no oil in the left side at all.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Like I said they should be putting the IRT kit on standard for the PRO. Would create a lot more hype around the Mattoc.

Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm fork review - MBR

The best 160 mm MTB fork you can buy | Page 4 of 12 | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

CS645 said:


> Like I said they should be putting the IRT kit on standard for the PRO. Would create a lot more hype around the Mattoc.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm fork review - MBR
> 
> The best 160 mm MTB fork you can buy | Page 4 of 12 | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


Completely agree. OR create a new trim level above pro!

...and unfortunately I can't rep you again. You deserve it, someone else, please green this guy up.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ColinL said:


> Completely agree. OR create a new trim level above pro!
> 
> ...and unfortunately I can't rep you again. You deserve it, someone else, please green this guy up.


I have brought this up to manitou, not going happen.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

ColinL said:


> ...and unfortunately I can't rep you again. You deserve it, someone else, please green this guy up.


Done.


----------



## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

CS645 said:


> Like I said they should be putting the IRT kit on standard for the PRO. Would create a lot more hype around the Mattoc.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm fork review - MBR
> 
> The best 160 mm MTB fork you can buy | Page 4 of 12 | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine


I like how the MBR review called the hexlock qr "baffling"! I could operate mine drunk with no problems (not that I'm advocating being drunk anywhere near your bike).


----------



## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Just did the IRT upgrade on my son's Mattoc. He says it is now much plusher on the chatter, but ramps up better on the jumps (he has a McLeod on the rear of his Turner Burner). It took all of 5 minutes to do. Running 40 in the main chamber and 90psi in the irt for his 155 pounds. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Cary said:


> Just did the IRT upgrade on my son's Mattoc. He says it is now much plusher on the chatter, but ramps up better on the jumps (he has a McLeod on the rear of his Turner Burner). It took all of 5 minutes to do. Running 40 in the main chamber and 90psi in the irt for his 155 pounds.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


I have very similar experience with IRT. Did few experiments with pressures, then I found 55psi in air spring, 120psi in IRT a 2 clicks of HBO as ideal for my riding. I weight 83kg.


----------



## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

Hi, just got a Mattoc pro 2 and want to run a 203mm rotor using Magura MT5 brakes. Can anyone please tell me what post mount adapter to use? I have tried 3 different post mount 203mm adapters and none bring my caliper into the correct position.
Regards


----------



## magzky (Jun 1, 2016)

Have you used sm-ma-F203P/PM? Or tried to add washers to adjust the caliper placing?


----------



## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

magzky said:


> Have you used sm-ma-F203P/PM? Or tried to add washers to adjust the caliper placing?


Cheers, currently on order, hope it solves the problem. Just curious to see what the others are running.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Hope adapter H


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I used SM-MA90-F180P/P which is front adaptor for 180mm rotors with 1mm washers, worked without problems for months before I got the correct one.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

RoboS said:


> I used SM-MA90-F180P/P which is front adaptor for 180mm rotors with 1mm washers, worked without problems for months before I got the correct one.


He speaks the truth, worked for me too.


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

wobbem said:


> Hi, just got a Mattoc pro 2 and want to run a 203mm rotor using Magura MT5 brakes. Can anyone please tell me what post mount adapter to use? I have tried 3 different post mount 203mm adapters and none bring my caliper into the correct position.
> Regards


You need to use a pm180 adapter to run a 203mm rotor.

The manitou mount is already @ 180mm disc, rather than the 160mm standard post mount.


----------



## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

scar4me said:


> You need to use a pm180 adapter to run a 203mm rotor.
> 
> The manitou mount is already @ 180mm disc, rather than the 160mm standard post mount.


Exactly what Manitau said to me when I emailed them, I've tried using 3 different 180 - 203pm, this is the next one I've ordered http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2QsAAOSw2s1UvQe~/s-l500.jpg
The Hope H looks promising


----------



## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

I used SM-MA90-F180P/P which is front adaptor for 180mm rotors with 1mm washers, worked without problems for months before I got the correct one

Which was?


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

wobbem said:


> I used SM-MA90-F180P/P which is front adaptor for 180mm rotors with 1mm washers, worked without problems for months before I got the correct one
> 
> Which was?


I believe its SM-MA-F203P/PM, just like magzky mentioned in his post. The marking on adaptor is not readable, it was used before I got it


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

wobbem said:


> Exactly what Manitau said to me when I emailed them, I've tried using 3 different 180 - 203pm, this is the next one I've ordered http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2QsAAOSw2s1UvQe~/s-l500.jpg
> The Hope H looks promising


The Shimano you've bought should be fine, as is the Hope.

Because the Mattoc has 180mm post mounts, you need an uncommon adapter. Most are designed to go from 160mm post mounts to either 180mm or 203mm rotors. 183mm rotors aren't common, nor are 180mm post mounts.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll post the hayes adapter number tomorrow. Fits and works perfectly.


----------



## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I'll post the hayes adapter number tomorrow. Fits and works perfectly.


Cheers bro, (btw I'm an ex Kiwi living in London)


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wobbem said:


> Cheers bro, (btw I'm an ex Kiwi living in London)


Hayes 98-30027 Hayes Front 180mm post mount to 203mm disc

They don't show up anywhere online. But any shop should be able to order them in.

Visually they look just like the 160-180mm brackets, but these have another ~3mm in them so you don't need washers to pack it out.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Bought push seals for the Marvel and Fox gold oil. Push seals seemed to help a little, but not worth the money.
> 
> The gold oil on the other hand is amazing. Literally just drained the oil on my mattoc and put gold in, didn't actually pull the lowers off. Major improvement over any other bath oil I have tried. Everyone using synthetic motor oil should stop.


I agree with your earlier statement that the small bump sensitivity of my 2 Mattocs wasn't on par my friends Pike, even with the IRT installed in both (IRT helped more against diving mid stroke than it did with the small bump sensitivity in my experience). So I'm going to give a new bath oil a shot. I went with Dougal''s advise and ordered the Supergliss along some other stuff that I needed.

So when you say you didn't even take the lowers of I presume you did the following:

- Undo the air and rebound caps.
- unscrew the air side with the thin wall socket and the rebound side with the 8mm allen key (as per video) undo the rebound foot bolt.
- lower the lowers a bit so the bath oil can drip out and leave it for a while
- turn the fork upside down and refill with 7-10ml of the new bath oil for each side
- close it all up and voila.

That about right?

EDIT: changed the 15ml to 7-10ml. Thanks RoboS and Mullen.


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

CS645 said:


> I agree with your earlier statement that the small bump sensitivity of my 2 Mattocs wasn't on par my friends Pike, even with the IRT installed in both (IRT helped more against diving mid stroke than it did with the small bump sensitivity in my experience). So I'm going to give a new bath oil a shot. I went with Dougal''s advise and ordered the Supergliss along some other stuff that I needed.
> 
> So when you say you didn't even take the lowers of I presume you did the following:
> 
> ...


Do not put 15ml of bath oil to each leg. It might migrate to damper and spring. Use 7ml for each leg.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

RoboS said:


> Do not put 15ml of bath oil to each leg. It might migrate to damper and spring. Use 7ml for each leg.


Copy that. Thanks.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> I agree with your earlier statement that the small bump sensitivity of my 2 Mattocs wasn't on par my friends Pike, even with the IRT installed in both (IRT helped more against diving mid stroke than it did with the small bump sensitivity in my experience). So I'm going to give a new bath oil a shot. I went with Dougal''s advise and ordered the Supergliss along some other stuff that I needed.
> 
> So when you say you didn't even take the lowers of I presume you did the following:
> 
> ...


I'm currently running supergliss, it has a slight edge over fox gold, but not light years better. If it can be sourced (dougal sells it and will ship), it's worth it. If not, gold is second best choice. Both make big improvements.

As for the oil change. I recommend removing the lowers and greasing the seals as well. It makes a difference. I didn't because I do full lower services often and it didn't matter too much, and I was in a hurry. If you don't want to remove the lowers, your list is correct except there is no need to let the air out of the spring, and you will need to undo the rebound foot bolt as well (reverse threaded BTW)

I use 10ml of oil, definitely don't use 15, but imo, 7 is a little low. No migration issues for me when I use 10ml


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

CS645 said:


> I agree with your earlier statement that the small bump sensitivity of my 2 Mattocs wasn't on par my friends Pike, even with the IRT


Personally I've had a night n day revelation in small bump sensitivity after simply servicing lowers with a 00 grade PTFE grease.
Tis weird stuff, almost feels like marshmallow in the tin, but super sticky n super slick.
(Unbranded and available cheap if you're in the uk.)

Pm me if you want to get hold of some.


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

RoboS said:


> I believe its SM-MA-F203P/PM, just like magzky mentioned in his post. The marking on adaptor is not readable, it was used before I got it


Cheers guys , the Shimano arrived and fitted perfectly without the need for washers so no need for the Hayes. :thumbsup:


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> As for the oil change. I recommend removing the lowers and greasing the seals as well. It makes a difference. I didn't because I do full lower services often and it didn't matter too much, and I was in a hurry. If you don't want to remove the lowers, your list is correct except there is no need to let the air out of the spring, and you will need to undo the rebound foot bolt as well (reverse threaded BTW)
> 
> I use 10ml of oil, definitely don't use 15, but imo, 7 is a little low. No migration issues for me when I use 10ml


Thanks, left the lowers on for now and put 10ml supergliss in each. I'll take the lowers off on the other one and give it the full monty.

I must say that there was really very little contamination in the oil after servicing the other fork after about a year. So those seals seam to be doing a very good job at keeping crap out.


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## mkitoss (Oct 9, 2016)

Hi, I have a Trek Stache and I need information to set my Magnum Pro from 110mm to 120mm. What I need?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

mkitoss said:


> Hi, I have a Trek Stache and I need information to set my Magnum Pro from 110mm to 120mm. What I need?


There is a 10mm spacer under the air piston that can be removed. Do not remove any spacers that are under the bottom out bumper, doing so will damage the damper, and possibly cause the tire to contact the crown causing a wreck.

Follow this guide as it's the same procedure


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## mkitoss (Oct 9, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> There is a 10mm spacer under the air piston that can be removed. Do not remove any spacers that are under the bottom out bumper, doing so will damage the damper, and possibly cause the tire to contact the crown causing a wreck.
> 
> Follow this guide as it's the same procedure


Ok! Thanks! I understand that the Magnum at 110mm has to have one spacer, and you only have to remove it. Is not necessary change anything.


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## dejock (Feb 25, 2010)

Hey all, I'm selling an OG mattoc pro in white. Currently set to 140mm and includes all of the spare parts for 27.5 conversion. Recently upgraded the axle to a hexlock SL, but original axle and parts will be included. Had a damper bleed/ service and new seals in the spring, so it should be good to go for awhile. There's some paint missing on the crown (because the paint is super thin) and some other cosmetic battle scars consistent with being ridden on a trail bike. Otherwise, it's super smooth and good to go. Asking $350 shipped OBO. Please shoot me a message for pictures or if you have additional questions.

Cheers!


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

Anyone know if the Magnum HBO valve will fit in my 26 inch Mattoc to make it 650B? I cannot find the 650B HBO in my box. No where stocks it!!!!


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I thought the only difference was the travel. IE you could run the fork in 170mm in 26" but 160mm for the 650B. 
Just by changing a spacer round.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

hardtailzero said:


> Anyone know if the Magnum HBO valve will fit in my 26 inch Mattoc to make it 650B? I cannot find the 650B HBO in my box. No where stocks it!!!!


Is it the pro or expert you have?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Notched said:


> I thought the only difference was the travel. IE you could run the fork in 170mm in 26" but 160mm for the 650B.
> Just by changing a spacer round.


It's a bottom-out spacer on one side and a HBO (hydraulic bottom-out) cone on the other which you change so the fork bottoms out 10mm higher with 10mm less travel and 10mm more tyre clearance.

Scar has asked the important question, the cones are different between Pro and Expert models.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

scar4me said:


> Is it the pro or expert you have?


It's the pro model. The HBO's don't seem available only the rebound assy of which all are sold out it seems


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

hardtailzero said:


> It's the pro model. The HBO's don't seem available only the rebound assy of which all are sold out it seems


Contact manitou support.
The HBO parts kit should have been supplied with the fork when purchased. (includes the HBO adapters, and travel spacers)
Pro has a thinner HBO rod than Expert, so you can't mix n match.

There were a load of early sets where it wasn't included (like mine), and the support guys are normally pretty helpful sending them out direct.
Pic of the travel configurations:








Give me a PM if you don't get any joy with manitou support.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

*26 to 650b*



scar4me said:


> Contact manitou support.
> The HBO parts kit should have been supplied with the fork when purchased. (includes the HBO adapters, and travel spacers)
> Pro has a thinner HBO rod than Expert, so you can't mix n match.
> 
> ...


So I receive my magnum rebound assy, turns out that it has the 26" HBO valve. Dammit!
I measured the internal rod @ 273mm. anyone got their 275 forks open to measure their inner rebound rod?

Chain Reaction cycles sent me a IVA kit instead of the HBO vlv.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

hardtailzero said:


> So I receive my magnum rebound assy, turns out that it has the 26" HBO valve. Dammit!
> I measured the internal rod @ 273mm. anyone got their 275 forks open to measure their inner rebound rod?
> 
> Chain Reaction cycles sent me a IVA kit instead of the HBO vlv.


The Mattoc shafts are the same between 26 and 27". It's only the HBO cone and bottom-out spacers that differ.
The Magnum is 27+ or 29+. 
27+ comp rebound shaft is 141-32156-K017
29+ comp rebound shaft is 141-32156-K004
27+ pro rebound shaft is 141-32155-K020 for 80/100mm or K021 for 120/140mm
29+ pro rebound shaft is 141-32155-K005 for 80/100mm, K006 for 120mm and K007 for some special Trek version.

Unfortunately I don't have any of the Magnum shafts in stock to measure.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

Yes the shafts are the same between the mattoc 650 and 26, however I bought a magnum 650b 140mm rebound assy. hoping the HBO was the one I needed since everywhere is out of stock and CRC only supplied the spacer.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

Perhaps 29+ pro rebound shaft has the HBO valve im after??


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

hardtailzero said:


> Perhaps 29+ pro rebound shaft has the HBO valve im after??


Where are you located?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

A mate of mine recently bought a Mattoc Expert off CRC, listed as 27.5. When it arrived it was actually set as 26, with no parts kit supplied. He got no love from CRC and this was Manitou's reply:

Hello Craig,

We never actually made this part available in the aftermarket. It was solely released with the early Mattocs during the large 26in to 27.5" transition that was occurring around this time. These conversion parts may be difficult to find. The other option here is to order the 27.5mm rebound rod kit which will have the 27.5 cylinder installed. 


The tool kit is not included with a new fork as well. This is only sold as an aftermarket kit. 

These can be ordered from your local bicycle shop through their Manitou distributor. 



Let me know if I can help you with any other questions you may have,

Hayes Techsupport Team-


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Where are you located?


United kingdom mate
Chichester west sussex


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> A mate of mine recently bought a Mattoc Expert off CRC, listed as 27.5. When it arrived it was actually set as 26, with no parts kit supplied. He got no love from CRC and this was Manitou's reply:
> 
> Hello Craig,
> 
> ...


The Expert is an interesting one. I've only sold the Pro models new and yes they come with the conversion kit in the box. Did your Expert come with the conversion kit?

Pro conversion kit is 141-30159-K010 I'll see if I can pull some into stock in my next order. For some interesting reason my parts collection only has the shorter 26" HBO cones. Not the longer 27" black versions. If I had one I could post it out. But no.

Machining up threaded adapters is a possibility. The thread is M6x1.0mm


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

hardtailzero said:


> United kingdom mate
> Chichester west sussex


I'm less than 20miles away in portsmouth, and you can have my spare 650b HBO.
I had an original 650b mattoc that never came with the kit, and got one off tech support ages ago.
The kit had both HBO parts, so means I ended up with a spare 650b since one was already in the fork.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> The Expert is an interesting one. I've only sold the Pro models new and yes they come with the conversion kit in the box. Did your Expert come with the conversion kit?
> 
> Pro conversion kit is 141-30159-K010 I'll see if I can pull some into stock in my next order. For some interesting reason my parts collection only has the shorter 26" HBO cones. Not the longer 27" black versions. If I had one I could post it out. But no.
> 
> Machining up threaded adapters is a possibility. The thread is M6x1.0mm


Mine came with the kit and my fork is set at 27.5. When Manitou sent the upgraded rebound assembly, it was also supplied at 27.5.

I therefore had 3 x 27.5 cones and two bottom spacers so I just gave him one of each. I just found it curious that Manitou could not supply the parts to him.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

Dougal said:


> The Expert is an interesting one. I've only sold the Pro models new and yes they come with the conversion kit in the box. Did your Expert come with the conversion kit?
> 
> Pro conversion kit is 141-30159-K010 I'll see if I can pull some into stock in my next order. For some interesting reason my parts collection only has the shorter 26" HBO cones. Not the longer 27" black versions. If I had one I could post it out. But no.
> 
> Machining up threaded adapters is a possibility. The thread is M6x1.0mm


If by chance the magnum internal rod measures up correctly do you think it will work in my 26inch for to make it 650b? or will the valve be to short from the seal up?

Also will I damage my forks riding with the 26" HBO valve fitted with 650b wheels. the Airside has already been converted.


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## hardtailzero (Oct 11, 2016)

scar4me said:


> I'm less than 20miles away in portsmouth, and you can have my spare 650b HBO.
> I had an original 650b mattoc that never came with the kit, and got one off tech support ages ago.
> The kit had both HBO parts, so means I ended up with a spare 650b since one was already in the fork.


You are an absolute legend mate! iv just moved back this way QECP will probably be my local, along with the other stuff on the other side.
How we doing it?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

scar4me said:


> Personally I've had a night n day revelation in small bump sensitivity after simply servicing lowers with a 00 grade PTFE grease.
> Tis weird stuff, almost feels like marshmallow in the tin, but super sticky n super slick.
> (Unbranded and available cheap if you're in the uk.)
> 
> Pm me if you want to get hold of some.


Can you show a picture or list the manufacturer/model of this grease. I want to find some in the US

I found this 
Super S Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00 - For Life Out Here

Super S Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

ashwinearl said:


> Can you show a picture or list the manufacturer/model of this grease. I want to find some in the US


It's not a major manufacturer, just a local British one making bespoke lubricants. Pm me n I can send you some if you want to try it.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

ashwinearl said:


> I found this
> Super S Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00 - For Life Out Here
> 
> Super S Cotton Picker Spindle Grease 00


That's not even got any PTFE.
That's just a superfine lithium grease.

On a seperate note....
Does anyone else find that the rebound sometimes chirps like a budgie?
I've only really noticed it since fitting the IRT. So it's probably because of the increased spring forces.
Normally it happens when I'm going fast into really rough roots n rocks.
Ride-wise it does still feel controlled, just funny when chasing my mates.

I'm 200lb n ride aggressively.
Settings wise I'm running:
Main: 68psi
IRT: 120psi
Compression lsc: 1
Hsc: 5
Rebounds: 5 from full open (will double check)

Rebound is spot on for recovery when normal riding, but it's noisy when hitting fast rough lines. (Normally dh runs, so probably more weighted on the front, but still happens when flat and fast rough)

Anyone got any suggestions on modifying the rebound stack to make it better suit me?


----------



## doncorleoni (Oct 16, 2016)

Hi all just got some magnums for my 29 plus bike. This seems to be the place to get info (not much about) so perhaps one of you lot can help answer a few questions. 

So read through all posts and seems to be common about the travel.... I get 90mm with no air in (measure with ruler from top of wiper seal to o ring). These were sold as 100mm travel. 

The HBO seems to do nothing with no air in there seems to be no difference pushing down on forks. O ring ends up in same position and no difference in feel (expected some resistance towards end of travel as hydraulic circuit kicked in) - will I only notice this on the trail? 

I only seem to have 3 clicks on high speed compression. There are 5 positions but only 3 definite clicks (where I can hear the balls falling into detents). Should I have 5 definite clicks? Or do the max and min positions count too? Getting confused by the setup as keeps referring to 5 clicks. 

Apart from that the fork is lovely.... Nice and plush and the low speed compression works fine (locks fork out with full hsc) backing off hsc and fork livens up as expected. Rebound works fine too. 

So what do you guys think? All normal? 


Many thanks


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

doncorleoni said:


> Hi all just got some magnums for my 29 plus bike. This seems to be the place to get info (not much about) so perhaps one of you lot can help answer a few questions.
> 
> So read through all posts and seems to be common about the travel.... I get 90mm with no air in (measure with ruler from top of wiper seal to o ring). These were sold as 100mm travel.
> 
> ...


The 90mm of travel likely means your damper is slightly over filled. Just need to pull a little out.

The hsc clicks start to fade as you turn it, this is normal due to how the adjustment works (adding preload to the shim stack

Hbo won't be felt by hand as it's velocity dependant. You just can't cycle it fast enough by hand to feel it work. It won't cause a loss of travel.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

scar4me said:


> That's not even got any PTFE.
> That's just a superfine lithium grease.
> 
> On a seperate note....
> ...


Is there a performance issues or you just don't like the noise of the oil through the shims?


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Is there a performance issues or you just don't like the noise of the oil through the shims?


Just wanted some other opinions tbh.
It is still controlled, but have a feeling I'm putting the rebound under high stress that it could be better tuned for.

Might just take off a few clicks more n see if that helps.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

scar4me said:


> Just wanted some other opinions tbh.
> It is still controlled, but have a feeling I'm putting the rebound under high stress that it could be better tuned for.
> 
> Might just take off a few clicks more n see if that helps.


I wouldn't worry about the noise. Very few shimmed rebound dampers are silent when functioning properly. If you are running in the middle of the rebound range, you should be good on the rebound shim stack. You only need to worry about the tune if you are running at the range extremes (full open or full closed)


----------



## doncorleoni (Oct 16, 2016)

Mullen 119 so thanks for the reply.... Sounds all normal then? Even the lack of clicks on the hsc damper? (3 clicks but 5 positions including the two extents of rotation). 

90 psi sound about right for 180 lb bloke and 100mm travel?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

doncorleoni said:


> Mullen 119 so thanks for the reply.... Sounds all normal then? Even the lack of clicks on the hsc damper? (3 clicks but 5 positions including the two extents of rotation).
> 
> 90 psi sound about right for 180 lb bloke and 100mm travel?


Everything is normal including the lack of clicks in the hsc adjuster, except only getting 90mm of travel with no air. This is most likely caused by a few cc's of extra oil in the damper. You and carefully remove the compression damper (videos on YouTube) and check the oil level to solve the issue. Easy to do, just be careful not to lose the detent balls and Springs when you remove the adjuster knobs.


----------



## doncorleoni (Oct 16, 2016)

Awesome thanks  assume I won't do any damage riding with a little extra oil in the damper. Will make sure when I service to use the correct amount of oil! My rockshoxs with the black box damper were the same in that a few ml (or cc) of extra oil would cause them to drop travel. Looking at the YouTube video the damper oil replacement procedure is pretty similar (always had Rockshox so these manitous are all new to me) 

Thanks for taking the time to reply


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## ruarz (Oct 18, 2016)

Just got my hands on a Mattoc comp. Was surprised when I cracked it open to find a dorado air spring instead of a mars+. Just makes this fork even more of a bargain. Can't wait to get out on it this week. :thumbsup:


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ruarz said:


> Just got my hands on a Mattoc comp. Was surprised when I cracked it open to find a dorado air spring instead of a mars+. Just makes this fork even more of a bargain. Can't wait to get out on it this week. :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 1100630


Hmmm. Would an Expert MC2 damper fit in there?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Hmmm. Would an Expert MC2 damper fit in there?


I don't believe so. I talked to Ed about this for a magnum (switching from iso air to Dorado air) 6066 aluminum stanchions in the comp instead of 7050 in the expert. Wall thickness won't allow it to fit.

The good news though, is parts will be available to switch magnum comps to Dorado air in the near future


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I don't believe so. I talked to Ed about this for a magnum (switching from iso air to Dorado air) 6066 aluminum stanchions in the comp instead of 7050 in the expert. Wall thickness won't allow it to fit.


Can fix that, But I should probably stop scaring Ed.



mullen119 said:


> The good news though, is parts will be available to switch magnum comps to Dorado air in the near future


That is interesting. It's always interested me that the Magnum Comp got the ISO and Mattoc Comp didn't. I had a plan for Minute-dorado-Air. But I've had no time to progress that.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Can fix that, But I should probably stop scaring Ed.
> 
> That is interesting. It's always interested me that the Magnum Comp got the ISO and Mattoc Comp didn't. I had a plan for Minute-dorado-Air. But I've had no time to progress that.


Well can make it fit!

I'm surprised there isn't a Dorado air minute at this point. Ts and iso are decent systems, but negative air is better than negative coil springs in pretty much every way. I'm assuming it's coming at some point.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I'm surprised there isn't a Dorado air minute at this point. Ts and iso are decent systems, but negative air is better than negative coil springs in pretty much every way. I'm assuming it's coming at some point.


The major fitment hassle is the dropout foot bolt/nut. The Dorado air needs the bigger diameter threaded interface like the damper side. Minute has an 8mm hole. I planned on doing it for Mrs Dougal. But the MARS came out well with the right spring.

So you're talking modifications to the casting and change in spring side compression rod.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The major fitment hassle is the dropout foot bolt/nut. The Dorado air needs the bigger diameter threaded interface like the damper side. Minute has an 8mm hole. I planned on doing it for Mrs Dougal. But the MARS came out well with the right spring.
> 
> So you're talking modifications to the casting and change in spring side compression rod.


That's makes sense. Has to be a solution somewhere but I'll leave that to the engineers. Even if is not DH air and some other form of negative air. I'm sure it will find its way.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

ruarz said:


> Just got my hands on a Mattoc comp. Was surprised when I cracked it open to find a dorado air spring instead of a mars+. Just makes this fork even more of a bargain. Can't wait to get out on it this week. :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 1100630


Compared to other manufacturers Budget models it is astonishing to see what manitou stuffed in there. 
The firm Non adjustable hbo is seen in no other fork and it Would be sufficient for the PRO, Too. i see No need for more. 
When seeing all the space available there it Would be more interesting to see a real tpc + as in the dorado .


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Compared to other manufacturers Budget models it is astonishing to see what manitou stuffed in there.
> The firm Non adjustable hbo is seen in no other fork and it Would be sufficient for the PRO, Too. i see No need for more.
> When seeing all the space available there it Would be more interesting to see a real tpc + as in the dorado .


When the mattoc was first released, they stated there wasn't enough room for both the HBO system and the tpc system. They chose to go HBO because they felt it was more important overall.

I was disappointed when I heard that, but I'm not anymore. The HBO system is more important and the mc2 damper is so good that I don't care anymore. Does make me wonder about it though.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One interesting difference between the Mattoc Comp and Pro (can't confirm on the expert) is the weight of the crown and stanchions.

I had to swap out a crown-steerer after a courier crushed a fork. The CSU is around 935g with a cut steerer.
A Mattoc Pro CSU is around 780g with a longer cut steerer.

That's like 1/3 of a pound.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> One interesting difference between the Mattoc Comp and Pro (can't confirm on the expert) is the weight of the crown and stanchions.
> 
> I had to swap out a crown-steerer after a courier crushed a fork. The CSU is around 935g with a cut steerer.
> A Mattoc Pro CSU is around 780g with a longer cut steerer.
> ...


Yikes, that's a pretty big difference from switching aluminum types.

I believe the pro and expert use the same CSU (easy to confirm with part numbers).


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Yikes, that's a pretty big difference from switching aluminum types.
> 
> I believe the pro and expert use the same CSU (easy to confirm with part numbers).


Different alloys requiring different wall thickness for the same strength. But I think there's a difference in internal crown machining. Which we can't see.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

To the suspension experts: 
Only referring to Performance, which one is superior and why.mc2 or charger damper?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> To the suspension experts:
> Only referring to Performance, which one is superior and why.mc2 or charger damper?


That's a complicated question as both have pros and cons.

The biggest advantage that the charger damper has is that it's a fully sealed and bled cartridge that isolates oil from air. This gives a more consistent damper as the oil can't foam or get air bubbles in it. The mc2 damper has a foam compensator to get air to a minimum and the air is at a minimum. Performance wise though, the closed cartridge is the better design(harder to do maintenance on the charger as well)

The charger damper has a preloaded shim stack to make the compression adjustments noticeable and give a fairly firm pedal feature. This causes spiking on high speed events and can only be fixed by retuning the shims stack. The mc2 damperso hsc controls the preload, ranging from no preload to a highly preloaded stack without the need to pull the damper apart. Big advantage for the mc2.

Mc2 also has an adjustable hbo system, charger uses rubber bumpers. Another big advantage for the mc2

Overall, I have owned both and the mc2 is the better dampers on the trail in my opinion. I think a tuned charger may close the gap, but the range of tuning options the mc2 damper has out weighs the advantage the charger cartridge has. On the trail, the mc2 is just controlled and smooth.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> That's a complicated question as both have pros and cons.
> 
> The biggest advantage that the charger damper has is that it's a fully sealed and bled cartridge that isolates oil from air. This gives a more consistent damper as the oil can't foam or get air bubbles in it. The mc2 damper has a foam compensator to get air to a minimum and the air is at a minimum. Performance wise though, the closed cartridge is the better design(harder to do maintenance on the charger as well)
> 
> ...


So you mean a better shimmed charger can come close But then again a mc2 can be shimmed either ;-)
Why then Do some reviews rate the mattoc behind pike and float on the trail? Leave aside that most are too stupid to guide their brake hose correctly : -D


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> So you mean a better shimmed charger can come close But then again a mc2 can be shimmed either ;-)
> Why then Do some reviews rate the mattoc behind pike and float on the trail? Leave aside that most are too stupid to guide their brake hose correctly : -D


There are a few reasons, one being a conspiracy theory.

The biggest is that in stock form, pikes and floats have better small bump sensitivity. This can be fixed for fairly cheap on mattocs and manitou is currently working on it for production. But in Stock form, it's lacking behind the big boys.

The pike and floats are also slightly stiffer. I have never heard of people calling mattocs flexy, but they are slightly behind in stiffness, especially compared to a pike or lyrik. Unless you are a world class rider or over 250lbs, you won't notice.

Here's the conspiracy theory. Say you are the owner of a bike review website. Most of your income comes from advertising. Fox and rock shox, the companies with the biggest budgets, are spending a lot of money advertising on your site. Manitou spends very little. Are you going to smack your biggest income sources in the face by writing that a cheaper fork is better? Very few products ever get bad reviews anymore, this is why. Can't say anything bad about people who pay you.

The mattoc got a 10/10 review recently in a shoot out, tied with the lyrik, and won the under 650€ (was a European magazine) category. Just saying


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

mullen119 said:


> There are a few reasons, one being a conspiracy theory.
> 
> The biggest is that in stock form, pikes and floats have better small bump sensitivity. This can be fixed for fairly cheap on mattocs and manitou is currently working on it for production. But in Stock form, it's lacking behind the big boys.
> 
> ...


Also, don't forget that Manitou had some bad years from 2006-2009 and as a result lost many oem sales. Two things came out of that, a lot or riders said they would never ride a manitou again and they lost the recognition that comes from being seen on major manufacture's bikes.

The Mattoc with the IRT is an amazing fork and as good as anything out there, while being less expensive than most, easier to work on, and having great manufacture support. The fork's weak point is a little flex if you are a big and/or very aggressive rider. It works great for my 160 pound son, but has some flex under my 230 pounds (keep in mind, my trail bike gets used for downhilling when one of the kids bikes break and they end up on my dh bike). But for that extreme use, I would be running it instead of a DVO diamond (another great fork).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Very true. The oem business appears to be picking up slowly, still lags behind though. 

I think the lack of a full product lineup doesn't help either. 

If anyone wants to fix small bump sensitivity to bring it up to pike/float level. Fox 34 skf seals and either fox gold oil or supergliss (can buy it from dougal) will get you there. IRT helps as well, but the stiction on the lowers frees up completely with this set up. When I made the switch, my lowers would slide on under there own weight (kinda annoying when trying to add semi-bath oil). Well worth the money.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

That's only the Fox wiper seals? Don't know if Fox uses oil seals as well, forks I've had didn't have oil seals. They did have foam rings, which was a bit of a surprise when I opened my Mattoc for the first time 'is there something missing?' Ah no, it doesn't use foam rings.

Fox 20wt Gold is on the list too, I use regular 5W40 synthetic motor oil, sourced locally. But like you mentioned it does tend to have some stiction, most notably when you compress the forks whilst standing next to the bike (actually riding it and it's far less noticeable). After the first time I pulled it apart I thought the seals might needed changing or that the air piston wasn't lubed well (use Prep M now, hadn't arrived then so a similar grease had to do). You could hear it, like a rubbing sound.

On a different note, does someone have the email address for Manitou customer/tech support? Or how I get hold of an updated air piston? Mine is the old design and it tends to have the oil migration problem. Last weekend on a ride it stiffened up very noticeably.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> To the suspension experts:
> Only referring to Performance, which one is superior and why.mc2 or charger damper?


MC2. You've got bigger piston area and two independent adjustments of HSC and LSC via shim preload and shim bypass.

Riding them both the bump absorbtion and traction of the MC2 is far better.

Throw that in with adjustable HBO and it's no contest. You also have the reliability of a self purging damper with no bladder to leak.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Stratus said:


> That's only the Fox wiper seals? Don't know if Fox uses oil seals as well, forks I've had didn't have oil seals. They did have foam rings, which was a bit of a surprise when I opened my Mattoc for the first time 'is there something missing?' Ah no, it doesn't use foam rings.
> 
> Fox 20wt Gold is on the list too, I use regular 5W40 synthetic motor oil, sourced locally. But like you mentioned it does tend to have some stiction, most notably when you compress the forks whilst standing next to the bike (actually riding it and it's far less noticeable). After the first time I pulled it apart I thought the seals might needed changing or that the air piston wasn't lubed well (use Prep M now, hadn't arrived then so a similar grease had to do). You could hear it, like a rubbing sound.
> 
> On a different note, does someone have the email address for Manitou customer/tech support? Or how I get hold of an updated air piston? Mine is the old design and it tends to have the oil migration problem. Last weekend on a ride it stiffened up very noticeably.


The skf seals double as oil seals. Use the foam rings as well. Manitou uses this set up for all team riders and AFAIK, are considering a switch if test riders report longevity with them.

[email protected]

Don't use oil on the piston any more. Slicoleum only (slick honey)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cary said:


> Also, don't forget that Manitou had some bad years from 2006-2009 and as a result lost many oem sales. Two things came out of that, a lot or riders said they would never ride a manitou again and they lost the recognition that comes from being seen on major manufacture's bikes.


Yeah those bad things were SPV, ABS (the original, not to be confused with the awesome ABS+) and IT.

So now the SPV is rightly consigned to history. Any ABS forks can be easily upgraded to ABS+ (like Mrs Dougal's Minute, all the R7's etc) and IT was simplified and developed into the Dorado Air system that we all know and love in the Mattoc.

Even through the dark days they still made epic suspension. My favourite bike has a 2005 Nixon with coil spring and TPC+ damper. It has done 11 years, in some bump profiles it outperforms my Mattoc, the stanchions are still perfect and I resized the bushings in one side for it's 10th birthday.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> The skf seals double as oil seals. Use the foam rings as well. Manitou uses this set up for all team riders and AFAIK, are considering a switch if test riders report longevity with them.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Don't use oil on the piston any more. Slicoleum only (slick honey)


I always thought the oil seal was part of the reason the fork lacked some suppleness out of the box. It took 40-60 hours for the oil seal to fully break in.

If the SKS seals can work as well at keeping the junk out and the bath oil in, it could be a good move for manitou.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Are they using the flangeless skf seals? Or the flanged one? 

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I always thought the oil seal was part of the reason the fork lacked some suppleness out of the box. It took 40-60 hours for the oil seal to fully break in.
> 
> If the SKS seals can work as well at keeping the junk out and the bath oil in, it could be a good move for manitou.


I'd give it 65% improvement because of better bath oil, 35% better seals. I'm pushing for them to test bath oils, but my say is minimal at best. It really does make a huge difference.



croakies said:


> Are they using the flangeless skf seals? Or the flanged one?
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


The flangless, gold oil compatible seals. A little tight to get in but not terrible.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Good stuff. I'll give the flangeless ones a try next time (currently running the flanged ones).

I'm running similar setup to you, SKF seals, fox gold air spring side, pike oil on damper side (because I had damper ingestion issues, maybe I put too much in. will give gold another try next time) and like you said, it is darn close to frictionless when pushing down on the fork.

My only issue right now that I have not been able to remedy is what feels like excessive bushing binding. I can feel it on the trail and when I hit the front brake, push the bike forward, and cycle the fork. 

Anyone else experience this or have an idea of what could fix this? New bushings?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

croakies said:


> Good stuff. I'll give the flangeless ones a try next time (currently running the flanged ones).
> 
> I'm running similar setup to you, SKF seals, fox gold air spring side, pike oil on damper side (because I had damper ingestion issues, maybe I put too much in. will give gold another try next time) and like you said, it is darn close to frictionless when pushing down on the fork.
> 
> ...


I have heard of a very small number of forks with a bushing issue. Email Manitou, they will likely replace the lowers for you.

[email protected] if you need it

Mention the oil ingestion as well. I haven't heard of it being an issue if you run 10ml or less of bath oil, but it's worth noting to them to see what they say.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> I have heard of a very small number of forks with a bushing issue. Email Manitou, they will likely replace the lowers for you.
> 
> [email protected] if you need it
> 
> Mention the oil ingestion as well. I haven't heard of it being an issue if you run 10ml or less of bath oil, but it's worth noting to them to see what they say.


Recent Mattoc Pro 2 article on Pinkbike showed that they had the same bushing bind issue with their original one. Manitou told them this was an issue with a few forks and they fully replaced the fork for Pinkbike. Definitely worth a call to Manitou to get remedied.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

This one: Manitou Mattoc Pro 2 - Review - Pinkbike
Hadn't seen it yet, seems a bit meh... to me. MBR's was a lot more positive.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I don't think the reviewer spent much time setting up the IRT properly. His experience contradicts what every other person has said about the IRT upgrade. My initial experience was similar to his, but after messing with it more I got it right. 

I'm my experience, initial set up is too high in the main chamber to achieve proper sag, and too low in the IRT to allow bottom out. To get the most out of the upgrade, you have to lower the main chamber and forget normal sag, and raise IRT pressure to gain mid end end of stroke support. Manitou needs to rewrite the set up guide.

I would be curious to see what the reviewer would think with a little more effort into setting it up. His issues are the exact reason why IRT will never be in a production fork.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> I'm my experience, initial set up is too high in the main chamber to achieve proper sag, and too low in the IRT to allow bottom out. To get the most out of the upgrade, you have to lower the main chamber and forget normal sag, and raise IRT pressure to gain mid end end of stroke support. Manitou needs to rewrite the set up guide.


So what are you set at and what's your riding weight?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> So what are you set at and what's your riding weight?


160lbs, aggressive rider, set at 160mm, 42psi main, 95psi IRT.

Worth noting that I have 2 pumps and they read around 10psi different. These numbers are with the pump that reads higher, I'm not sure which is the accurate pump.

I also wonder if the reviewer pumped the IRT up before the main chamber. It's key to do this for proper function.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I'd give it 65% improvement because of better bath oil, 35% better seals. I'm pushing for them to test bath oils, but my say is minimal at best. It really does make a huge difference.
> 
> The flangless, gold oil compatible seals. A little tight to get in but not terrible.


Can you post a link to the seals you used in your Wife's Marvel?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Can you post a link to the seals you used in your Wife's Marvel?


I used 32mm rockshox style seals from Push Industries.

Push Industries Fork Seal Kits > Components > Forks & Suspension > Fork Service Kits & Parts | Jenson USA

Fox skf seals are a little cheaper and offer similar performance. The push seals are much easy to install though (not as tight of a fit). Make sure to get a good oil to see the benefits. If you order oil from dougal, he can get you skf seals. If you get the push seals from jenson, they carry fox gold as well.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> 160lbs, aggressive rider, set at 160mm, 42psi main, 95psi IRT.


Well bugger me.... I'm 170lb and have mine set pretty much exactly the same. 45psi in the main from memory.

I've set mine using a digital pressure guage.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I used 32mm rockshox style seals from Push Industries.
> 
> Push Industries Fork Seal Kits > Components > Forks & Suspension > Fork Service Kits & Parts | Jenson USA
> 
> Fox skf seals are a little cheaper and offer similar performance. The push seals are much easy to install though (not as tight of a fit). Make sure to get a good oil to see the benefits. If you order oil from dougal, he can get you skf seals. If you get the push seals from jenson, they carry fox gold as well.


Mullen119 thanks.

Any tips for installing the seals? I have a pretty decent assortment of sockets, but don't have a dedicated seal seating tool.

So you are using Fox Gold semi bath or SuperGliss, and slickoleum on the air valve, no oil, right? Do you use any slickoleum inside the fork such as on the seals, or bushings.

I recall somewhere in this thread, someone suggested light grease on the bushings prior to installing the legs on. I have been using slickoleum here, but question how long it is of benefit.

Thanks again, I am going to try the seals and Fox Gold. The Marvel is a decent fork, but the stiction is getting annoying and was magnified when I rode a bike with a supple pike on it.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Mullen119 thanks.
> 
> Any tips for installing the seals? I have a pretty decent assortment of sockets, but don't have a dedicated seal seating tool.
> 
> ...


The push seals install super easy and don't need a seal tool to install. They can be installed by hand and lightly tapped using a socket to fully seat.

I personally use slickoleum on the seals prior to lowers install, and on the air piston and soak the foam rings and the same oil I use as bath oil.

On the marvel, it doesn't bring suppleness up to pike level, but it brings it up to an acceptable level. The marvel uses a negative coil spring, to sensitivity off the top will never be pike/mattoc level.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I experienced this 'bushing binding' on my Marvel. Manitou suggested that I might have over tightened the bottom piece and it mushroomed the end of the stanchion. I bought another fork for parts and used the lowers on that and it improved. 

But in general, my Marvel is sticky and I am pursuing the Fox Gold and different seals


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> On the marvel, it doesn't bring suppleness up to pike level, but it brings it up to an acceptable level. The marvel uses a negative coil spring, to sensitivity off the top will never be pike/mattoc level.


Thanks for pointing that out. I need to remember that it's not apples to apples comparison sometimes.


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## copylatte (Sep 24, 2011)

Is anyone running their mattoc with larger tires (nobby nics 2.8's) or whatnot and if so how do they fit?


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## rhyolite (Dec 11, 2006)

mullen119 said:


> On the marvel, it doesn't bring suppleness up to pike level, but it brings it up to an acceptable level. The marvel uses a negative coil spring, to sensitivity off the top will never be pike/mattoc level.


It's got nothing to do with sensitivity. All the air negative spring allows for is suitability for a wider variety of rider weights. The DVO diamond uses a preloading system to get around the typical issue of a coil negative being optimal for only a limited range of riders. If anything, a coil negative actually has superior characteristics.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

Hi,

I need some help with setting up the mattoc. I have read some posts on this forum and tried different things but no luck.

I've had the fork for a year now and I still can't get the fork to be plush off the top. It also feels harsh. I'm 170lbs geared up and the fork has the irt and the new piston. The fork is set at 140mm. So far I'm at 50 main/98 irt, 3 clicks from fast rebound and no compression. I'm considering selling it and getting a pike but I do like the fork. Any suggestions? 

Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cangzu said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need some help with setting up the mattoc. I have read some posts on this forum and tried different things but no luck.
> 
> ...


What happens when you run lower air pressure? I run 45psi and that works great for me, but position on the bike is a big factor.

Still running stock oil? Have you serviced the lowers? If so, with what oil?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cangzu said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need some help with setting up the mattoc. I have read some posts on this forum and tried different things but no luck.
> 
> ...


If you stand over the bike and push down, does it move easily? Does it top out harsh? I lean towards the negative chamber not filling properly because of poppet valve needing adjusted.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

Mullen119 - Thank you for replying. To answer your 1st question, no, it does not move easily. 2nd, It does top out harsh. Also, sometimes I get dead spots (which has been mentioned on here) so I let air out in both chambers and fill them backup to resolve it. My LBS installed the new piston, used slickoleum on the piston and seals as advised by manitou. I hope I answer your questions.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cangzu said:


> Mullen119 - Thank you for replying. To answer your 1st question, no, it does not move easily. 2nd, It does top out harsh. Also, sometimes I get dead spots (which has been mentioned on here) so I let air out in both chambers and fill them backup to resolve it. My LBS installed the new piston, used slickoleum on the piston and seals as advised by manitou. I hope I answer your questions.


What amount of Sag do you have when you are just sitting on the bike? Also, how much travel do you use when you do your normal ride?

I would tend to agree with what mullen said, the air chambers are not filling properly.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> What amount of Sag do you have when you are just sitting on the bike? Also, how much travel do you use when you do your normal ride?
> 
> I would tend to agree with what mullen said, the air chambers are not filling properly.


Thank you for helping. I have 30% sag and I don't use all the travel on a normal ride. The only time I use all the travel is when I go over a small drop/jump. I would say that on a normal ride I use close to 3/4 of the travel (140mm).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cangzu said:


> Mullen119 - Thank you for replying. To answer your 1st question, no, it does not move easily. 2nd, It does top out harsh. Also, sometimes I get dead spots (which has been mentioned on here) so I let air out in both chambers and fill them backup to resolve it. My LBS installed the new piston, used slickoleum on the piston and seals as advised by manitou. I hope I answer your questions.


look at the main chambers air valve. How far is the poppet sticking out? My guess is this needs adjusted to allow both chambers to fill. It should stick out a little one very 1mm passed the top of the valve. This can be adjusted by opening the top of the air chamber where the IRT is and taping a 2.5mm to a long screwdriver and turning the adjuster in the center of the air piston. Here is a write up by scare me on the long route to fix it. 
Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike

It's also possible that your shop did something while installing the new piston that caused the issue, but it definitely sounds like a negative air chamber issue.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

Dougal said:


> What happens when you run lower air pressure? I run 45psi and that works great for me, but position on the bike is a big factor.
> 
> Still running stock oil? Have you serviced the lowers? If so, with what oil?


I tried 45 PSI at one point and it felt good but then while riding it is inconsistent. Sometimes is soft and sometimes it gets harsh.

The shock has been serviced by my LBS so I don't know what oil are they using. At this point I'm thinking in getting the tools from manitou and opening it up myself. One thing I forgot to mention is that when I remove air from both chambers and I push down the fork does not compress all the way. It looks like if the Irt portion still has air.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cangzu said:


> I tried 45 PSI at one point and it felt good but then while riding it is inconsistent. Sometimes is soft and sometimes it gets harsh.
> 
> The shock has been serviced by my LBS so I don't know what oil are they using. At this point I'm thinking in getting the tools from manitou and opening it up myself. One thing I forgot to mention is that when I remove air from both chambers and I push down the fork does not compress all the way. It looks like if the Irt portion still has air.


Your local shop did a poor job servicing it. Sounds like it has too much oil in the damper (why it's short on travel), a negative air chamber filling issue (multiple reasons why it isn't filling) and possibly a bath oil problem. It needs to be properly servicedo, either by you if you know what you are doing , or a true suspension shop that services manitou products often.

You can try emailing manitou at [email protected] and see what they say. They may help you out since they have such great CS.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> look at the main chambers air valve. How far is the poppet sticking out? My guess is this needs adjusted to allow both chambers to fill. It should stick out a little one very 1mm passed the top of the valve. This can be adjusted by opening the top of the air chamber where the IRT is and taping a 2.5mm to a long screwdriver and turning the adjuster in the center of the air piston. Here is a write up by scare me on the long route to fix it.
> Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike
> 
> It's also possible that your shop did something while installing the new piston that caused the issue, but it definitely sounds like a negative air chamber issue.











This is how the valve looks like. I didn't measure it yet but it looks like it needs to come out a bit. Thoughts?

BTW - It looks like the LBS chipped the paint, smh.


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## Cangzu (May 25, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> Your local shop did a poor job servicing it. Sounds like it has too much oil in the damper (why it's short on travel), a negative air chamber filling issue (multiple reasons why it isn't filling) and possibly a bath oil problem. It needs to be properly servicedo, either by you if you know what you are doing , or a true suspension shop that services manitou products often.
> 
> You can try emailing manitou at [email protected] and see what they say. They may help you out since they have such great CS.


I think I'm going to give Hayes a call and see if they can take a look at it. Last time I called they said I can send it and will look at it at no cost. Thank you for your suggestions.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Cangzu said:


> View attachment 1102682
> 
> 
> This is how the valve looks like. I didn't measure it yet but it looks like it needs to come out a bit. Thoughts?
> ...


I'd be much more worried about how they've rounded that nut.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Do some people here have the same issue that your stem turns easily although it is tightened properly or even with more nm than said in the manual? 
The steerer seems to be slightky under 1 1/8 inches. Thus the issue only occures with the mattoc not other forks. :-\


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Do some people here have the same issue that your stem turns easily although it is tightened properly or even with more nm than said in the manual?
> The steerer seems to be slightky under 1 1/8 inches. Thus the issue only occures with the mattoc not other forks. :-\


My headset is getting loose when I ride bike parks (lots of brake bumps and bigger hits than my usual riding). I had to torque my Renthal duo stem to more than 5Nm to keep my Canecreek 40 headset tight. Did not have this problem with other forks in the past.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Nothing like that. Good stem, correct amount of torque and a bit of carbon paste...


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

RoboS said:


> My headset is getting loose when I ride bike parks (lots of brake bumps and bigger hits than my usual riding). I had to torque my Renthal duo stem to more than 5Nm to keep my Canecreek 40 headset tight. Did not have this problem with other forks in the past.


Now that you mention it, mine does the same.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

RoboS said:


> My headset is getting loose when I ride bike parks (lots of brake bumps and bigger hits than my usual riding). I had to torque my Renthal duo stem to more than 5Nm to keep my Canecreek 40 headset tight. Did not have this problem with other forks in the past.


I've never had any of my headsets loosen running my Mattoc.
I run a 45mm Funnduro stem, so it's not like it's got massive bolts or a large clamp area either.
And that is even when doing full on rough DH tracks and jumps.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

No stem problems here.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Do some people here have the same issue that your stem turns easily although it is tightened properly or even with more nm than said in the manual?
> The steerer seems to be slightky under 1 1/8 inches. Thus the issue only occures with the mattoc not other forks. :-\


About a month ago I crashed hard at Raystown. After I dusted myself off I found my handlebar parallel with my top tube. Straightened it out & retightened the bolts. No issues since.


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## Sectornaut (Jan 29, 2016)

Riding my Mattoc hard for 3 seasons now. No stem issues.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

RoboS said:


> My headset is getting loose when I ride bike parks (lots of brake bumps and bigger hits than my usual riding). I had to torque my Renthal duo stem to more than 5Nm to keep my Canecreek 40 headset tight. Did not have this problem with other forks in the past.


Same here, it's happened on consecutive bike parks days. Even rounded out a stem bolt trying to add a little more torque than normal to keep the headset from coming loose. But it stopped after a few times, so I'm wondering if it was just the race settling it a bit more onto the race.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Ordered RacingBros Lycan Edge dust wipers, hope they arrive before next weekend. Time to throw some fresh oil in and see how they compares to the og ones.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

caste said:


> Ordered RacingBros Lycan Edge dust wipers, hope they arrive before next weekend. Time to throw some fresh oil in and see how they compares to the og ones.


Looking forward to hearing how they work out, they make some big claims.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Alright, seriously, whoever designed this brake mount is bad and should feel bad.

It's literally 1mm from touching my rotor and it has a funky offset that is requiring me to put a washer under one side of my caliper. I hate it when companies fail at simple **** like this. POST is supposed to be standardized...

Actual ride report will come tomorrow...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> Alright, seriously, whoever designed this brake mount is bad and should feel bad.
> 
> It's literally 1mm from touching my rotor and it has a funky offset that is requiring me to put a washer under one side of my caliper. I hate it when companies fail at simple **** like this. POST is supposed to be standardized...
> 
> Actual ride report will come tomorrow...


The post mount is standard. Are you using an adapter? What size rotor and what brand/model brake?


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Turns out I'm retarded; I forgot I had switched to a 203mm rotor and 203 adapter. Going to the Mattoc, I had to swap for a smaller adapter (+20mm...Pike is 160mm instead of 180mm) and totally didn't account that extra 3mm. It actually needed a washer on both sides.

Still super duper close to rubbing the rivets on my rotor, though. Rotor and caliper are both Hope.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

phuchmileif said:


> Turns out I'm retarded; I forgot I had switched to a 203mm rotor and 203 adapter. Going to the Mattoc, I had to swap for a smaller adapter (+20mm...Pike is 160mm instead of 180mm) and totally didn't account that extra 3mm. It actually needed a washer on both sides.
> 
> Still super duper close to rubbing the rivets on my rotor, though. Rotor and caliper are both Hope.


Hope adapter H is what you need.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

croakies said:


> Looking forward to hearing how they work out, they make some big claims.
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


Already have them on my 36 Van, before those i had green skf. The thing is ridicolously plush even with xfirm coil (my weight is on the upper end of medium one). I have great expectations for the mattoc, too.



phuchmileif said:


> Turns out I'm retarded; I forgot I had switched to a 203mm rotor and 203 adapter. Going to the Mattoc, I had to swap for a smaller adapter (+20mm...Pike is 160mm instead of 180mm) and totally didn't account that extra 3mm. It actually needed a washer on both sides.
> 
> Still super duper close to rubbing the rivets on my rotor, though. Rotor and caliper are both Hope.


I had hopes before switching to saints, rotors were a bit wider but never had rubbing problems.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

One way or another, I'll get it all ironed out. It's worth it for this fork...from just my typical backyard shakedown, I am seeing marvelous results...no idea how someone could ride this fork and then ever again call the Pike 'plush.'

I need to post a pic of my super awkward looking AM bike now...my pink and purple baby Commencal, damn near down to just the gears and cranks as original parts.

Beefy wheels and tires, Hope brakes, new seat and post, new stem and bars, and now new fork...I shudder to think at what this ~2k bike now has in it...


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

phuchmileif said:


> I need to post a pic of my super awkward looking AM bike now...my pink and purple baby Commencal, damn near down to just the gears and cranks as original parts.
> 
> Beefy wheels and tires, Hope brakes, new seat and post, new stem and bars, and now new fork...I shudder to think at what this ~2k bike now has in it...


Yeah join the club! My Norco isn't looking very original - front shifting removed, new narrow-wide chainring, bars, stem, grips, brakes, front wheel, fork (mattoc pro), rear shock, dropper, pedals. I guess that leaves most of the drivetrain, bottom bracket, cranks, saddle, rear wheel and the headset as original. And the standard rear wheel is a pile of junk and on its way out, so that won't be around much longer.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Damn,am I so insensitive to the differences or why van I Not understand that for example in PINKBIKES SUSPENSION PRODUCT OF THE YEAR. The mattoc is described as top mid range price product that van almost compete with the High end priced competition? Is it only the massive lower price that they think,the mattoc must be entry level performance or the minor stiffness (although still stiffer as x fusion 34 forks and same as deville ) and allegedly bit lesser plushness, that all the strengths over other products are forgotten? 
Stiffness is more of personal taste than quality, still pros shred such forks to the win...I Do not get it? 

PS Do your mattocs with skf or racing bros wipers match pike s and 36 plushness then? ;-)


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Just got them. Can't wait to strip the fork this saturday.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

bansaiman said:


> PS Do your mattocs with skf or racing bros wipers match pike s and 36 plushness then? ;-)


Mine are still manitou stock seals, but with PTFE grease in them now.

They whoop the ass out my bos deville 170's for sensitivity now.

No need for specialist 3rd party seals to get great performance out of the mattoc.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

scar4me said:


> No need for specialist 3rd party seals to get great performance out of the mattoc.


Manitou factory riders all use skf seals on their race bikes, and it's looking like that, or something similar, is going to become the stock seals in the future. Possibly coinciding with a bath oil change as well. The pro riders have been using the skf seals for a while now, the switch in bath oil is newer and just trickling out to test riders recently, as well as lab testing. It truly does make a difference and as long as seal longevity tests well in the field, the switch will be made. The biggest reason it hasn't happened yet is evil genius seals have ridiculous longevity and do a great job of sealing (4 scraper lips because of the dedicated oil seal, verses just 2 scraper lips on skf, Enduro hyglide, and push seals)

As for comparing to the new 36, that's one of the few forks I haven't used. The mattoc is damn close to the pike I had though, if not slightly better with bath specific oil and skf seals.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> As for comparing to the new 36, that's one of the few forks I haven't used. The mattoc is damn close to the pike I had though, if not slightly better with bath specific oil and skf seals.


Have you tested mattoc with IRT?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> Have you tested mattoc with IRT?


Yeah. Most of my testing for Manitou is for the Mcleod, but I have a Mattoc that they gave me a few things for as well. IRT is fantastic if you forget sag numbers. They always end up high but the support in the last 2/3 of the stroke is impressive without excessive ramp up. If you set it up to have 25% sag or less, you are better off with the normal spring setup.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Manitou factory riders all use skf seals on their race bikes, and it's looking like that, or something similar, is going to become the stock seals in the future. Possibly coinciding with a bath oil change as well. The pro riders have been using the skf seals for a while now, the switch in bath oil is newer and just trickling out to test riders recently, as well as lab testing. It truly does make a difference and as long as seal longevity tests well in the field, the switch will be made. The biggest reason it hasn't happened yet is evil genius seals have ridiculous longevity and do a great job of sealing (4 scraper lips because of the dedicated oil seal, verses just 2 scraper lips on skf, Enduro hyglide, and push seals)
> 
> As for comparing to the new 36, that's one of the few forks I haven't used. The mattoc is damn close to the pike I had though, if not slightly better with bath specific oil and skf seals.


Do you know what oil they are going with?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

croakies said:


> Do you know what oil they are going with?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


I'm not sure which oils are being tested. I'm using supergliss (best I have used, but pretty much only available from dougal for end users in America ) I know there are others bring used, just not which ones or by who. Riding season is about done for me until the ground freezes, so I have had very little contact anyone over there latel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The most important thing is to grease the seals, especially new ones, on installation. Not only does this cut down friction (pretty much completely with the right grease) but it's needed so new seals actually seal. Grease the upper bushings too.

The only set of SKF seals I've had come back leaking were installed dry by the owner. SKF seals for Fox 34 fit the Mattoc, I haven't installed them myself. They are available in flanged and flangless versions (2016+ is flangeless). Dimensions are the same and I personally have no idea why everyone has a fetish for flangeless.

I've been riding my unopened red Mattoc since I think March and it's now starting to get sticky towards the end of rides. Time for Supergliss. Scar sent me some special grease, I'll give that a shot too. I've been using Slickoleum and it's great so it'll be hard to improve on.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The most important thing is to grease the seals, especially new ones, on installation. Not only does this cut down friction (pretty much completely with the right grease) but it's needed so new seals actually seal. Grease the upper bushings too.
> 
> The only set of SKF seals I've had come back leaking were installed dry by the owner. SKF seals for Fox 34 fit the Mattoc, I haven't installed them myself. They are available in flanged and flangless versions (2016+ is flangeless). Dimensions are the same and I personally have no idea why everyone has a fetish for flangeless.
> 
> I've been riding my unopened red Mattoc since I think March and it's now starting to get sticky towards the end of rides. Time for Supergliss. Scar sent me some special grease, I'll give that a shot too. I've been using Slickoleum and it's great so it'll be hard to improve on.


I'll be curious to hear what you think of the grease. I want to try it when the skf test period is over. Going to be hard to improve on supergliss(best) or gold(really good).

So far the only issue I have had with skf seals is a very slight oil ring on the stanchion when riding around freezing temperatures. I blame the oil more than the seals, but the small amount is pretty insignificant anyway.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> I'll be curious to hear what you think of the grease. I want to try it when the skf test period is over. Going to be hard to improve on supergliss(best) or gold(really good).
> 
> So far the only issue I have had with skf seals is a very slight oil ring on the stanchion when riding around freezing temperatures. I blame the oil more than the seals, but the small amount is pretty insignificant anyway.


Supergliss can get past seals when the going gets cold apparently.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

How does Prep M stand against Slickoleum grease? I have 2 tubes of prep m and I'm not sure if there is some performance advantage with other greases.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

RoboS said:


> How does Prep M stand against Slickoleum grease? I have 2 tubes of prep m and I'm not sure if there is some performance advantage with other greases.


The biggest benefit of slickoleum over prep m is that slickoleum stays in place better. Prep m is fairly thin and when things warm up from friction, the prep m tends to move away from the areas where it is needed. It works fine, but service intervals are short because of this.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> The biggest benefit of slickoleum over prep m is that slickoleum stays in place better. Prep m is fairly thin and when things warm up from friction, the prep m tends to move away from the areas where it is needed. It works fine, but service intervals are short because of this.


Still,why Do almost all testers still say, it is only good in Relation to price, nut Not as good as pike or fox? 
I know both forks still dive if you Do not use a number of tokens or The manufacturers shim their dampers with strong compression. Still some admitted and some private users know from comparisons by themselves ,The mattoc has a really great working rebound,one of the best. 
I Do not understand it The test results and texts though


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

bansaiman said:


> Still,why Do almost all testers still say, it is only good in Relation to price, nut Not as good as pike or fox?
> I Do not understand it The test results and texts though


Advertising dollars and excess hype for the Fox & RS options imho.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Kiwiplague said:


> Advertising dollars and excess hype for the Fox & RS options imho.


A properly setup Mattoc with IRT blows away a Pike RCT3 or Fit4 Trail Adjust fork. It's really not that close. Most people upgrade from what they've got, if they bought a complete bike with Fox or Rockshox base model, they're probably going with the same brand's better fork... if they upgrade at all.

Long-term maintenance and reliability isn't close, either.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

copylatte said:


> Is anyone running their mattoc with larger tires (nobby nics 2.8's) or whatnot and if so how do they fit?


my page refreshed after that last reply and I saw this old post, which no one responded to.

I am running a Vittoria Goma 2.4 on a Spank Oozy Evo rim which I believe is 21.5mm inner width. So it's fairly narrow (yet serves me well). It is about the largest I would run in a Mattoc to have adequate mud clearance, it's 2.48" at the shoulder knob and a true-to-size 2.40" at the sidewall. There's roughly 1/4" to 1/3" clearance to the fork arch sides. Plenty of room up top, but when it gets slippy, there's going to be gunk on the sides of the shoulder knobs.

There's a plus sized fork with Mattoc performance; it's called Magnum. Unfortunately, the Magnum isn't available in longer travel models (yet?). I have seen one Magnum Pro in the wild, on a Trek Stache 9. The rider was a very fit and skilled young man, yet inexplicably he rode it 'locked out' (which of course it doesn't have, but can be setup very stiff) on a very rugged trail. Ah, youth.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Serviced the fork today, did just a parking lot test.. HOLY F*CK. Can't wait to do a trail test on thursday. Might need to pump in some extra psi..


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

copylatte said:


> Is anyone running their mattoc with larger tires (nobby nics 2.8's) or whatnot and if so how do they fit?


Yes they fit in the lowers.
There is a picture of one with a 2.8nn on a 35mm Id rim. There was about 10mm clearance at the top to the arch and maybe slightly less to the sides.
Search back through this thread and there is a link to a German forum with the pic. (Sure it comes up when searching for mattoc n nobby NICs 2.8)

Would want to take an exact measurement of the top tyre to bottom of crown though, as wouldn't want risk bottoming onto the tyre.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I measured my 26" 160mm Mattoc as having 355mm clear radius to crown at full bottom-out.

A 26x2.8" tyre has a theoretical radius of 350mm, so expect a few mm either side of that with different brands. Some may clear, some may not.

A 27" 160mm Mattoc has 10mm more tyre clearance, so 365mm under the crown.

A 27x2.8" tyre has a theoretical radius of 363mm. So that's basically zero clearance at full travel.
It may work or it may not depending on the brand of tyre, how much the tyre grows with pressure etc. 

CHECK CAREFULLY!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I measured my 26" 160mm Mattoc as having 355mm clear radius to crown at full bottom-out.
> 
> A 26x2.8" tyre has a theoretical radius of 350mm, so expect a few mm either side of that with different brands. Some may clear, some may not.
> 
> ...


The point dougal is making is that clearance at the arch is not the only factor to consider, even though it's the only factor most people think of. At full compression, a tire that clears the arch can hit the crown. Make sure to check both.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

scar4me said:


> Yes they fit in the lowers.
> There is a picture of one with a 2.8nn on a 35mm Id rim. There was about 10mm clearance at the top to the arch and maybe slightly less to the sides.
> Search back through this thread and there is a link to a German forum with the pic. (Sure it comes up when searching for mattoc n nobby NICs 2.8)
> 
> Would want to take an exact measurement of the top tyre to bottom of crown though, as wouldn't want risk bottoming onto the tyre.


I might have posted that one. My fork, but made by the previous owner. 27,5" 160mm at the time.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Dougal said:


> The only set of SKF seals I've had come back leaking were installed dry by the owner. SKF seals for Fox 34 fit the Mattoc, I haven't installed them myself. They are available in flanged and flangless versions (2016+ is flangeless). Dimensions are the same and I personally have no idea why everyone has a fetish for flangeless.


Are the flanged seals easier to install?

Also, will a socket in the right size work to push in new seals, or do I need to invest in the seal driver tool?


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

miniwisejosh said:


> Are the flanged seals easier to install?
> 
> Also, will a socket in the right size work to push in new seals, or do I need to invest in the seal driver tool?


The shoulder on the seal is a bit narrow for a socket to press on. The price for the seal driver is a bit ridiculous, making one from some plastic pipe will work. using something tapered works well as you can just trim it off at a diameter to match the seal OD, I used a funnel.







Grease the OD also.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

miniwisejosh said:


> Are the flanged seals easier to install?


Well they're self-aligning. Which is nice. Flangeless are generally ridiculously tight too.



miniwisejosh said:


> Also, will a socket in the right size work to push in new seals, or do I need to invest in the seal driver tool?


Yes.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks guys! It took some frustration, but I eventually pushed the seals in with the cut funnel DIY tool

I can definitely feel the difference with the SKF seals and Fox Gold oil. With the original seals and oil, there was a bit of harshness on small rocks and roots compared to other forks I've used. That is fixed now, and the performance on bigger hits is better than ever. 

Now I can say this is the best fork I've ever ridden. Compared to my previous favorite fork (X Fusion Vengeance HLR coil), it is smoother, lighter, and more adjustable. I really never thought an air fork could feel so good.


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

IRT kit out of stock in Europe, expected back Mid-End January. Just when my Mattoc arrived..


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

fjonzo said:


> IRT kit out of stock in Europe, expected back Mid-End January. Just when my Mattoc arrived..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, the IRT system is good but you can get a very similar ride with the LSC, HSC and HBO settings. The Manitou site has tons of information on how each click of LSC and HSC impacts the performance. The IRT makes it easier no doubt but don't discount the stock set up.

The key with all Manitou Mattocs and Magnums is to make sure to give the fork time to break in. The oil seals take about 30-40 hours of good hard riding to break in.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Honestly, the IRT system is good but you can get a very similar ride with the LSC, HSC and HBO settings. The Manitou site has tons of information on how each click of LSC and HSC impacts the performance. The IRT makes it easier no doubt but don't discount the stock set up.


I was happy with my fork's performance for roughly 18 months. Then I bought IRT and I was blown away. I felt a major difference and really like how it performs. But it probably depends on your setup, conditions and preferences


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> Honestly, the IRT system is good but you can get a very similar ride with the LSC, HSC and HBO settings. The Manitou site has tons of information on how each click of LSC and HSC impacts the performance. The IRT makes it easier no doubt but don't discount the stock set up.
> 
> The key with all Manitou Mattocs and Magnums is to make sure to give the fork time to break in. The oil seals take about 30-40 hours of good hard riding to break in.


The conditions where I live are small mountains, forrest ride, pedal up. plushness important for a trail with roots and rock garden, but I also want to do small drops and jumps with the new bike. I was riding a HT for many years, so a Fully is something new and I'm looking forward to jump over stuff I didn't dare before with the HT. Would probably start with AM Settings and 30% sag, find my rebound, then ride and fine adjust HSC. Then try jumps and increase HBO.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I was happy with my fork's performance for roughly 18 months. Then I bought IRT and I was blown away. I felt a major difference and really like how it performs. But it probably depends on your setup, conditions and preferences


It definitely has a much greater impact on mid-stroke and end stroke than the stock set up but they both were good. If anything, in the beginning, I found the system to make the fork harsh - I had left my compression setting alone. After I backed everything off, it stated feeling better. Also, I have really dropped my main pressure with the IRT system, much more than I thought I would. I think I started at something like 60/120 and went to 60/100 but now I am something like 45/120. As wacky as it sounds, I kinda like the ride this gives!


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> It definitely has a much greater impact on mid-stroke and end stroke than the stock set up but they both were good. If anything, in the beginning, I found the system to make the fork harsh - I had left my compression setting alone. After I backed everything off, it stated feeling better. Also, I have really dropped my main pressure with the IRT system, much more than I thought I would. I think I started at something like 60/120 and went to 60/100 but now I am something like 45/120. As wacky as it sounds, I kinda like the ride this gives!


Since you removed all HSC, LSC after installing IRT wondering if harshness is because of sticky seals/foam rings/bath oil issue. On my Marvel I felt lowering air pressure (overall/main) was resolving stiction to some extent. Lowering main pressure in your case for softer initial stroke would do the same, you just fall through the sticky section easier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fjonzo said:


> IRT kit out of stock in Europe, expected back Mid-End January. Just when my Mattoc arrived..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've got a few in stock. Manitou Mattoc Upgrade Kits

I should keep one for myself........


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm not certain on my pressures - I have it written down at home - but the main thing I've found with the IRT is that I can have good midstroke support and still use a lot of travel when hitting a drop or jump. and of course, then you don't bottom out since you have HBO.

without IRT, if I set it up stiff enough to resist midstroke dive, it would never use full travel. another benefit is more plush initial stroke. it really is having your cake and eating it too.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

fjonzo said:


> Since you removed all HSC, LSC after installing IRT wondering if harshness is because of sticky seals/foam rings/bath oil issue. On my Marvel I felt lowering air pressure (overall/main) was resolving stiction to some extent. Lowering main pressure in your case for softer initial stroke would do the same, you just fall through the sticky section easier.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I would not say it was sticky but rather just a too firm in the mid-stroke. I found with the initial recommended pressures - 60 main/120 IRT, the compression adjustments had too much of an impact. I have actually added a click back with my lower main pressure.


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Just unpacked my allegedly new Mattoc Pro 2. Looks like I received a return item from actionsports.de. The HSC only has 4 clicks instead of 5. The dial starts and ends on a half turn. The rebound has 9 steps and half a step on each end (is it normal?). Guess somebody overrotated the MC2 dials and send it back to the dealer, who didn't fix it and just sold it as new. Bit disappointed. Also stanchions for the matte black version are not black. The new models all have black stanchions?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm pretty sure my Mattoc Pro (1) is like that with the clicks. Rebound sounds correct with 9 clicks. I'm only ever using one or two clicks of HSC from open. So it's moot for me. But the last click is very firm to turn.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

fjonzo said:


> Just unpacked my allegedly new Mattoc Pro 2. Looks like I received a return item from actionsports.de. The HSC only has 4 clicks instead of 5. The dial starts and ends on a half turn. The rebound has 9 steps and half a step on each end (is it normal?). Guess somebody overrotated the MC2 dials and send it back to the dealer, who didn't fix it and just sold it as new. Bit disappointed. Also stanchions for the matte black version are not black. The new models all have black stanchions?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a Mattoc with black stanchions. My Pro 2 has 4 clicks for compression and bottom out, 10 for rebound.

Most forks I've owned from various companies have damper adjustment dials that start and end on partial steps. Is there anything else that makes you suspect the fork is a return? If not, I say just ride it and see how it feels.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm fairly sure the fork is fine. Yes, it's normal for the last click of HSC to be tough. You're preloading a shim stack.

I do think I've seen pictures of a Mattoc with black stanchions, but it might have been original equipment on a bike. There's definitely some graphics colors unique to complete new bikes...


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

miniwisejosh said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a Mattoc with black stanchions. My Pro 2 has 4 clicks for compression and bottom out, 10 for rebound.
> 
> Most forks I've owned from various companies have damper adjustment dials that start and end on partial steps. Is there anything else that makes you suspect the fork is a return? If not, I say just ride it and see how it feels.


I saw it in this thread before:
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-pro-2-fork-27.5-160mm-556821

The box was opened before, paint on the lowers has a small scratch, dials seem off, don't move nicely, HSC is missing the 5th click. HBO has 5 clicks, LS 4. The Abs+ dial on my Marvel is much smoother. Probably all things I could live with or fix, but if it's sold as new I's rather return it.

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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

fjonzo said:


> I saw it in this thread before:
> https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-pro-2-fork-27.5-160mm-556821
> 
> The box was opened before, paint on the lowers has a small scratch, dials seem off, don't move nicely, HSC is missing the 5th click. HBO has 5 clicks, LS 4. The Abs+ dial on my Marvel is much smoother. Probably all things I could live with or fix, but if it's sold as new I's rather return it.
> ...


That looks nice! I stand corrected about the stanchions.


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

ColinL said:


> I'm fairly sure the fork is fine. Yes, it's normal for the last click of HSC to be tough. You're preloading a shim stack.


My ABS+ is preloading a shim-stack and require equal force for all clicks. Don't think the argument counts.

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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

fjonzo said:


> My ABS+ is preloading a shim-stack and require equal force for all clicks. Don't think the argument counts.


Everyone's TPC+ damper is exactly as you described.

Does that count?


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

ColinL said:


> Everyone's TPC+ damper is exactly as you described.
> 
> Does that count?


I believe you and can't prove otherwise right now  Anyway will swap the Mattoc against a new one and compare.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

fjonzo said:


> Just unpacked my allegedly new Mattoc Pro 2. Looks like I received a return item from actionsports.de. The HSC only has 4 clicks instead of 5. The dial starts and ends on a half turn. The rebound has 9 steps and half a step on each end (is it normal?). Guess somebody overrotated the MC2 dials and send it back to the dealer, who didn't fix it and just sold it as new. Bit disappointed. Also stanchions for the matte black version are not black. The new models all have black stanchions?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Easiest way to tell if it is a 1 or 2 is if it has the IVA system or not.

Regardless, if it looks used and rough, I would send it back.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Nothing on Actionsports.de suggests its a pro 2?


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

shmity said:


> Nothing on Actionsports.de suggests its a pro 2?


It's a 2, got the Hexlock. The last one of old return stock I guess, they are out now.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fjonzo said:


> My ABS+ is preloading a shim-stack and require equal force for all clicks. Don't think the argument counts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ABS+ is opening and closing a bypass needle. It's not a shim-stack preload knob like the HSC on the Mattoc/Magnum.

The original ABS was preloading a spring against fluid pressure. I can sell you one cheap if you want to try it out!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

fjonzo said:


> It's a 2, got the Hexlock. The last one of old return stock I guess, they are out now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agh, that is a better way to tell!


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Well it looks like my relatively new (~2mth old I think) Mattoc Pro has something scratching away at the stanchion on the air-spring side  It's a sharp kind of scratch that I can see and feel with my finger nail, not a whole area. I've run the end of a cable tie around the dust seal and it appears all clean, however I don't want to gamble that it won't get any worse.

Of course I'd like to drop the lowers and take a look but the damn Mattoc tool kit isn't in stock at CRC, or anywhere else with similar prices. I've checked my tools and no socket goes on well enough for my liking. I can't believe they've made it require a strange tool, so I can't just drop the lowers and do a quick check.

Has anybody else experienced this? Is it most likely going to be something stuck in the seals or a problem with a bushing?


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

The only metal piece there is the seal clip. You definitely need to remove the lowers and inspect if something is sticking out under the seals. Check the service video below, it shows the different parts of the seal very well. You need Slickoleum or Prep M to grease the seals, and proper bath oil (a lot of people use Fox Gold) when reassembling. You might want to switch to SKF seals (see earlier replies in this thread).

To remove the lowers you need the right 8mm thin wall socket, and standard 8mm allen wrench. The thin wall socket you might find in a local hardware store. Don't have it, can't measure it, but looking at 3:10 in the video it will only work when the outer diameter is not too wide.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Yeah I measured the size required for the socket with calipers, it's quite a thin wall. I might just buy an 8mm deep socket locally and grind it down - not ideal but it should get the job done.

Surely a "proper bath oil" could be replaced with a descent oil of similar viscosity, it's not like it's going through extreme heat cycling. I already have a bunch of 5w and 15w fork oil here. It has to be better than having something grinding away at the stanchions


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phreeky said:


> Well it looks like my relatively new (~2mth old I think) Mattoc Pro has something scratching away at the stanchion on the air-spring side  It's a sharp kind of scratch that I can see and feel with my finger nail, not a whole area. I've run the end of a cable tie around the dust seal and it appears all clean, however I don't want to gamble that it won't get any worse.
> 
> Of course I'd like to drop the lowers and take a look but the damn Mattoc tool kit isn't in stock at CRC, or anywhere else with similar prices. I've checked my tools and no socket goes on well enough for my liking. I can't believe they've made it require a strange tool, so I can't just drop the lowers and do a quick check.
> 
> Has anybody else experienced this? Is it most likely going to be something stuck in the seals or a problem with a bushing?


It's likely something wrong with a bushing. At this point, the damage is done, so you pulling the lowers won't solve anything. Email [email protected] and they will get you sorted out. Include pictures if you can get a good one (sometimes hard to do with scratched stanchions)


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Hmmm are they suitable for those of us in Aus?

I ended up using an allen key in the air valve and dropped the lowers just then. FFS I can see an imperfection in the top bushing - like a hard little black dot in it right where the wear is occurring 

edit: To make matters worse, I purchased these online from HK. I expected better QC than this.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I had the camera gear handy, so photos attached. Damn it. I'm thinking that it probably won't get any worse now, other than further up the stanchion as further in the travel gets more use, so not sure whether to re-assemble and keep riding. I'm reluctant to hack at the bushing, it wouldn't budge from a fingernail and I'm not willing to use any more force than that.

Any further thoughts? This really sucks given that bushing replacement isn't cheap and neither are CSAs - it'd set me back around AU$450, so I'd probably be silly to bother.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

That some the Manitou main customer service email. They will refer you to shockcraft if you are in Australia. Dougal on here is the owner, so you can email him or pm him too.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Hello.

I became Mattoc Expert owner recently and here is my storry.

I got it from a good fella in Germany for 400 E

First thing I noticed was the fact that it had a terrible stiction which was revealed upon opening it.

The stanchion seals had no grease at all - bone dry
The same with lowers - not a gram of oil.

I put grease around stanchion seals 

Then startyed thinking about the lowers and realised that now they advise 3.5 ml in lowers

At first it was 7 or more which was causing hydrolock and forcing the fluid to the negative chamber

How could a company release a fork without any lubrication or with so much that it causes hydrolock?

ANoither fact is more serious.

Manitou Mattocs foam does not compensate enough and if u fill the fork as it should ( more oil then 80mm - it can not compress fully the shaft.

If u fill it according to factory - 77 for pro and 80 for expert it is ok

Generally the oil level raises by 30mm when the fork is compressed

If u fill 73mm to expert you are gonna be in serious hydrolock

If u fill 85-90 the shaft compresses nicely with very little force needed for full stroke.

The air gap is bigger anyway.

And the foam does not compensate.

I would like to go into compression damper adiust as I can not imagine how can u sell a high speed and claim over customer service it is more like Medium speed.

Also what is the HBO doing?
When i put little air into fork it does not matter if I put it on max or min 

I can not imagine that people are claiming it does anything as it is an ordinary ball and spring tensioned by HBO lever.

Put little air in your shock and tell me if it affects anything.

If u consider how big forces are there at the end of the stroke then u start wondering what HBO does when it is so weak.

At the end what is the CST for MAnitou

I am sick of WT as it does not say anything

2.5 wt can be 6 CST and can b 30 cst - a huge difference of 5 x

Also the rebound shaft that i broke at the end where it is screwed as I did not use torque.

I did not use it when i was replacing it but i used a very tiny leverage to feel when it sets on the seat.

Anyway the way it broke and the place it broke tells me it was designed on purpose by an manager not engineer as it could be easily done in such way as the air leg is done - this does not brake at higher force.

When it broke off the whole dumper unscrewed with only half turn and the place it broke was where the HEX key slot shape ends.

The breakage started at the corner of an HEX key wall

Furthermore there is a shim underneath the compensating foam ( which does not compensate enough as i mentioned) it is hold in place by a pin going through the shaft.

My pin is too short and it holds only one side as it does not stick out to the other enough.

Even if it did it would be too short for the other.

So the shim rests there at the angle

This shim also affects dumping so i find it strange to be put outside the damper.

Shim stack is almost non existing and I would love someone from manitou to explain the way it works 

Manitou already lied about Hi speed and in my opinion HBO is not working either.

In HBO there is no needle to lock it

There is a steel ball so it is not HBO - it is blow off.

Correct me if and where I am wrong

Cheers


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

phreeky said:


> I had the camera gear handy, so photos attached. Damn it. I'm thinking that it probably won't get any worse now, other than further up the stanchion as further in the travel gets more use, so not sure whether to re-assemble and keep riding. I'm reluctant to hack at the bushing, it wouldn't budge from a fingernail and I'm not willing to use any more force than that.
> 
> Any further thoughts? This really sucks given that bushing replacement isn't cheap and neither are CSAs - it'd set me back around AU$450, so I'd probably be silly to bother.


Unacceptable lack of quality check that should be replaced by Manitou ASAP without a question.

It looks like it got there during manufacturing - Is it rock or metal?

Dig it out quick and keep riding


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Macieq said:


> It looks like it got there during manufacturing - Is it rock or metal?


It's hard to know - it's really quite small. However it feels like it's under the surface ever so slightly.



> Dig it out quick and keep riding


Oh don't worry I'm tempted to just do that and move on, however I have NFI about bushings and whether breaking the surface (ever so gently with the tip of a hobby knife to just poke it out) would cause a whole lot of disastrous failure of the bushing or not - anyone know?

Either way I'll be needing to grind a deep socket down quick smart if I'm to get it all back together as I can't see how I will be able to otherwise - the trick with the allen key won't work on re-assembly.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

phreeky said:


> the trick with the allen key won't work on re-assembly.


I do all my Mattoc work without special tools. I do the allen key method everytime open them up, which has probably been 8 times. Just pressurize the air assembly to like 20 psi so the lowers have something to push against, then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution. Then you can use the allen key to finish it up.

I will say this method requires you to be delicate and not fat fingered so you don't mess your threads up.

Also, I honestly wouldnt try and remove that object that is scratching your stanchion if it doesn't seems to be a foreign object. Manitou has excellent customer service and will take care of it if you give them the chance to.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

phreeky said:


> It's hard to know - it's really quite small. However it feels like it's under the surface ever so slightly.
> 
> Oh don't worry I'm tempted to just do that and move on, however I have NFI about bushings and whether breaking the surface (ever so gently with the tip of a hobby knife to just poke it out) would cause a whole lot of disastrous failure of the bushing or not - anyone know?
> 
> Either way I'll be needing to grind a deep socket down quick smart if I'm to get it all back together as I can't see how I will be able to otherwise - the trick with the allen key won't work on re-assembly.


Remove it which ever way you prefer causing as little distortion as possible

U can try a razor - u slide it over surface until u get to the point - hope the bushing is hard enough

Like cleaning glass with razor

Eventually u could polish it afterwards but as long as the damaged surface sits below the stanchion it is ok.

When u will be digging it out with a sharp tip instead of razor technique be carefull as u might raise the edges


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

LaXCarp said:


> Just pressurize the air assembly to like 20 psi so the lowers have something to push against, then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution. Then you can use the allen key to finish it up.
> 
> I will say this method requires you to be delicate and not fat fingered so you don't mess your threads up


Thanks! Yeah I can be delicate, I've worked on optics before so this sort of stuff isn't particularly fiddly for me.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

phreeky said:


> the trick with the allen key won't work on re-assembly.


Keep the fork fully compressed and keep applying the pressure until thread engages


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

LaXCarp said:


> Just pressurize the air assembly to like 20 psi so the lowers have something to push against, then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution. Then you can use the allen key to finish it up.


How are u gonna insert the Hex key without releasing pressure is beyond my imagination.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Macieq said:


> How are u gonna insert the Hex key without releasing pressure is beyond my imagination.


Actually it makes sense in my mind - once there is sufficient thread engaged then the pressure isn't needed anymore. I'd be inclined to go > 1 revolution via pliers though to be on the safe side.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Macieq said:


> How are u gonna insert the Hex key without releasing pressure is beyond my imagination.


" then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution"

That's how


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

lexcarp


If it is not foreign object then how did it scratched the stanchion and also if u do not see an foreign object then u have clearly something wrong with u


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

phreeky said:


> It's hard to know - it's really quite small. However it feels like it's under the surface ever so slightly.
> 
> Oh don't worry I'm tempted to just do that and move on, however I have NFI about bushings and whether breaking the surface (ever so gently with the tip of a hobby knife to just poke it out) would cause a whole lot of disastrous failure of the bushing or not - anyone know?
> 
> Either way I'll be needing to grind a deep socket down quick smart if I'm to get it all back together as I can't see how I will be able to otherwise - the trick with the allen key won't work on re-assembly.





LaXCarp said:


> " then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution"
> 
> That's how


BUAHAHA - make yourself a favour...


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Originally Posted by *LaXCarp*

" then take some soft jaw pliers or equivalent and thread the air rod about 1 revolution"

That's how

Did u forget to take your meds?

Lets continue In logic we trust


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Hey guys, you've been helpful, can we keep it civil? I really appreciate it.

I've emailed the main HBG support email and will see what they say. The problem is that it's Christmas time, the chances of getting a response any time soon is extremely slim, which means I either:
- Wait and don't ride
- Re-assemble as-is and keep riding
- Try and remove the "thing" from the bushing but probably write off any chance of Manitou being able to assist


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

phreeky said:


> Hey guys, you've been helpful, can we keep it civil? I really appreciate it.
> 
> I've emailed the main HBG support email and will see what they say. The problem is that it's Christmas time, the chances of getting a response any time soon is extremely slim, which means I either:
> - Wait and don't ride
> ...





phreeky said:


> - Try and remove the "thing" from the bushing but probably write off any chance of Manitou being able to assist


If u have to ride then remove the grit or order new bushings and do it by yourself or by your LBS or a trusted friend maybe

What is the bushing made of BTW? Teflon?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> Hello.
> 
> I became Mattoc Expert owner recently and here is my storry.
> 
> ...


Your are mistaken on every point.

1. Sounds like you bought used, so blame the oil on the previous owner. I use 10ml of oil and have never had an issue. Original spec was 15ml. Not sure where 3.5ml came from, I haven't seen that number anywhere. Ask fox about low oil levels from the factory.

2. The foam compensator is not ment to remove all air from the damper. It's ment to raise the oil level far enough above the piston/ports that the oil will not foam and cause inconsistent damping. It does this well, and has always been marketed as working this way. Most fork dampers do not use any compensating system. Only a feweek damperso on the market are fully sealed damper cartridges.

3. HBO worksystem very well. You will never feel it pushing down by hand, as you can't create fast enough shaft speeds by hand. Its not ment to limit travel, just to slow high high shaft sleeps in the last 20mm of travel. Hydraulic bottoming cones like manitou uses are the standard in how hydraulic bottom-out systems work. Many other companies use the same design, just without the adjustment. Dyno charts show it working and you can definitely feel it while riding. No need for a lock, the coil spring is more then stiff enough to hold the valve shut until it is supposed to open to allow full travel.

4. The HSC adjustment is just that. It puts physical preload on the HSC shim stack, changing how much oil pressure is needed to open the shim stack. Pretty self explanatory if you understand shim stacks.

The rest of your post is just nonsensical rambling. I have not heard of anyone else breaking a damper shaft. The pin for the perfectly working foam compensator is plenty long if placed correctly, and the shim on the bottom is a washer, and only there to keep the foam compensator at the top of damper.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

re: stanchion scratch - this conversation about fixing it and riding as-is should not be happening about a new fork. customers should not have to accept such a flaw.
(edit)

work with Hayes and they will make it right.

re: used mattoc, you can buy a new rebound damper. I'm not sure I followed exactly what you said above, but I assume you broke the damper itself. you might be able to use the pro rebound damper as an upgrade - I think somewhere in this massive thread someone was talking about that, and whether it worked or not. probably Dougal knows or has done it.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Your are mistaken on every point.


:thumbsup: YES U R MY ALPHA AND OMEGA



mullen119 said:


> Sounds like you bought used, so blame the oil on the previous owner. I use 10ml of oil and have never had an issue. Original spec was 15ml. Not sure where 3.5ml came from, I haven't seen that number anywhere. Ask fox about low oil levels from the factory.





Macieq said:


> How could a company release a fork without any lubrication or with so much that it causes hydrolock?


I got it new and I wrote about low QC in factory so I do not know how did u come to a conclusion that it was bought used - do u think i paid 400 E for used Mattoc when new ones are 450



mullen119 said:


> The foam compensator is not ment to remove all air from the damper. It's ment to raise the oil level far enough above the piston/ports that the oil will not foam and cause inconsistent damping.


If the foam compensator is not meant to remove all air then why putting any - in fact they are very little short to be airless and that was the initial design idea so how about it



mullen119 said:


> It does this well, and has always been marketed as working this way. Most fork dampers do not use any compensating system.


What do u mean by saying it does it well - can u elaborate

Your forks do use air as a compensator



mullen119 said:


> Only a feweek damperso on the market are fully sealed damper cartridges.


Pike bladder fox bladder Suntour spring compensated dvo bladder marzochhi spring compensated ?

What do u mean by few - can u be more precise ?
We are talking about execution and not about which fork has what



mullen119 said:


> HBO worksystem very well. You will never feel it pushing down by hand, as you can't create fast enough
> It can be cleraly felt at the end of the stroke - if u do  it with pressure in the air chamber the progression is so big that it means nothing but if u do it without lowers u can feel it doing something...


HBO is a needle that closes the circuit and Manitou HBO opens the circuit.



mullen119 said:


> Its not ment to limit travel, just to slow high high shaft sleeps in the last 20mm of travel.





mullen119 said:


> Hydraulic bottoming cones like manitou uses are the standard in how hydraulic bottom-out systems work. Many other companies use the same design, just without the adjustment.





mullen119 said:


> Dyno charts show it working and you can definitely feel it while riding. No need for a lock, the coil spring is more then stiff enough to hold the valve shut until it is supposed to open to allow full travel.


Makes no sense

Why would u open at the very end of stroke

Where do u see full travel at 25 mm to max stroke

If 25 mm makes a difference for u and u call it then a full travel than my condolence.



mullen119 said:


> You will never feel it pushing down by hand, as you can't create fast enough shaft speeds by hand. Its not ment to limit travel, just to slow high high shaft sleeps in the last 20mm of travel.


The speeds at the end of the stroke should be already significantly dampened



mullen119 said:


> Many other companies use the same design, just without the adjustment.


Would u be so kind and give us an example or couple of because u said many.



mullen119 said:


> No need for a lock, the coil spring is more then stiff enough to hold the valve shut until it is supposed to open to allow full travel.


U said it can be seen on graphs. Show me where it opens on the graph to achieve your mythical full stroke

SO it is opening at the end of stroke to allow full travel - opening at last 25mm to allow for full travel - are u ****ing nuts

It is Blow OFF not HBO end of story



mullen119 said:


> The rest of your post is just nonsensical rambling. I have not heard of anyone else breaking a damper shaft. The pin for the perfectly working foam compensator is plenty long if placed correctly, and the shim on the bottom is a washer, and only there to keep the foam compensator at the top of damper.


So I am wrong on everything and the rest is nonsense

Someone mentioned breaking the threaded part in this article so wake up.

It is designed like this on purpose as it could be easily designed to be bombproof- easily

You are wrong about the pin - do not be smart - u do not have my damper unit

Why is the pin mounted in such a place that it does not hold plate firmly or at least tight enough so it does not wobble

Shim to keep the foam compensator and it does not affect dumping - yeah right

The foam is located on top and it wraps around the whole assy very tight and shim is below with a gap in between both.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

ColinL said:


> re: stanchion scratch - this conversation about fixing it and riding as-is should not be happening about a new fork. customers should have just accept such a flaw.
> 
> work with Hayes and they will make it right.
> 
> re: used mattoc, you can buy a new rebound damper. I'm not sure I followed exactly what you said above, but I assume you broke the damper itself. you might be able to use the pro rebound damper as an upgrade - I think somewhere in this massive thread someone was talking about that, and whether it worked or not. probably Dougal knows or has done it.


I broke the piece of threading that screws into the lowers - it should be secured with nut from the bottom - - in perfect world, and it should have more than 0.1mm of material in the corners of the hex key .

The pro rebound damper needs a pro compression damper and if u want to switch between 160 and 170 mm you have to replace the component on top of the rebound shaft - it is longer on 160 by 10 mm.
U have to remove the spacer on the bottom of rebound assembly as well.

I run my 27.5 with 26 wheels and 170 mm of travel and I already got a new rebound damper unit so it is not a problem - CRC are excellent with supply. ( My Mattoc came with a kit containing both 140-160 and 170

Yes - someone mentioned the fact of breaking it and yes I must have used too much force.

But the way it broke and the place it broke tells me that it was made weaker on purpose and the amount of material in that area is a tragedy


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Did anyone noticed what happens to the oil if u move the rebound damper in the stanchion on max. rebound?

I tried it as i was curious and despite having the piston way below the oil surface, the oil itself (damping fluid) got emulsified.

After a while i could see the piston again on the bottom in the clear solution.

I did it couple of times but realised it always gets into emulsified state and clarifies after a while

Is it possible that it is being sucked by vortex despite the high level of oil or what other phenomenon are we dealing here with?

Is it possible that it will only work when there is IFP which separates 2 environments physically.

Or is it the oil quality itself?


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Macieq said:


> Did anyone noticed what happens to the oil if u move the rebound damper in the stanchion on max. rebound?
> 
> I tried it as i was curious and despite having the piston way below the oil surface, the oil itself (damping fluid) got emulsified.
> 
> ...


I believe to have experienced the same on the Marvel some time ago. Air and Oil mixes, rebound produces a slurping sound. It seems to be normal, even some reviews report the same.

I have stiction too despite proper bath oil amounts (oil used: Mutol 10W) and greased (hardware store stuff) seals, when comparing with my wife's Reba (never serviced) it's night and day. I'm trying with a different bath oil now (Fox Gold..) plus greasing seals with Prep M. I wonder if the guys who say stiction is solved (with SKF seals, Fox Gold, Slickoleums) could share a video, like pushing down the fork while standing. I'm interested to understand how smooth is possible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

fjonzo said:


> I believe to have experienced the same on the Marvel some time ago. Air and Oil mixes, rebound produces a slurping sound. It seems to be normal, even some reviews report the same.
> 
> I have stiction too despite proper bath oil amounts (oil used: Mutol 10W) and greased (hardware store stuff) seals, when comparing with my wife's Reba (never serviced) it's night and day. I'm trying with a different bath oil now (Fox Gold..) plus greasing seals with Prep M. I wonder if the guys who say stiction is solved (with SKF seals, Fox Gold, Slickoleums) could share a video, like pushing down the fork while standing. I'm interested to understand how smooth is possible.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used sendtec as a damper fluid and their grease.

What about PFTE grease or a silicone ( perhaps the small sachets that u get with your brake pads for a car

I would say that the stiction is Head Angle dependant as well so it is a combination of that and the materials and lubraication used

When i saw the sendtec grease i thought it is very ordinary grease (lithium or so)

I believe English will glorify everyrhing made in UK even if it is crap


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Macieq said:


> I used sendtec as a damper fluid and their grease.
> 
> What about PFTE grease or a silicone ( perhaps the small sachets that u get with your brake pads for a car
> 
> ...


Thanks, will try Teflon Spray on the Stanchions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Macieq said:


> I broke the piece of threading that screws into the lowers - it should be secured with nut from the bottom - - in perfect world, and it should have more than 0.1mm of material in the corners of the hex key .
> 
> The pro rebound damper needs a pro compression damper and if u want to switch between 160 and 170 mm you have to replace the component on top of the rebound shaft - it is longer on 160 by 10 mm.
> U have to remove the spacer on the bottom of rebound assembly as well.
> ...


I'm not sure how you broke that. Manitou uses that same design on many of their forks. Only way it breaks is turning it the wrong way when removing the lowers or if you cranked on it when reinstalling instead of going by manitou torque specs (or learn realize that on bikes you don't put every bit of strength you have into tightening everything).

I have marvel forks, exact same design except the little threaded part that holds the springs/balls for the rebound adjust. Never once have I had an issue in the probably 8-9 times I've had the lowers off so far. You have to loosen it by turning it the opposite direction you normally would to remove a bolt. Just like removing pedals that have a hex key hole on the inside (facing bb), you have to turn it the opposite direction from what you would with a pedal wrench from the pedal side.

Your not the only one by any stretch that's broken those. 99% of the time it's not reading the info first to know it's reverse and the other 1% is people that way over tighten it.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Only way it breaks is turning it the wrong way when removing the lowers or if you cranked on it when reinstalling instead of going by manitou torque specs
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I wrote already so read it man ****ing read it

And write something about anything else i wrote.

Why did write this post? What for? Everything was already said.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

fjonzo said:


> Thanks, will try Teflon Spray on the Stanchions.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


U can make a gap with some plastic spacer and apply grease to the inside of the seal and if u are sensible nothing bad can happen.

Even sliding in spray tube inside wont damage anything - it is high quality elastic rubber anyway.

I am not sure if spraying stanchions would work due to a nature of the stanchion seal - it seals from the external environment .


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Macieq said:


> U can make a gap with some plastic spacer and apply grease to the inside of the seal and if u are sensible nothing bad can happen.
> 
> Even sliding in spray tube inside wont damage anything - it is high quality elastic rubber anyway.
> 
> I am not sure if spraying stanchions would work due to a nature of the stanchion seal - it seals from the external environment .


Yep, I tried it before with the gap and it helped a little but doesn't solve the problem entirely. I don't think it's head angle because/ with rebound damping completely off there's no stiction, when adding rebound damping stiction occurs in the initial, 1-5mm stroke. HSC is completely off all the time, should free-bleed. Could it be that with rebound damp. the oil level increases and leads to this behavior? Since it comes and goes with rebound bath oil/grease etc. should not matter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Macieq said:


> :thumbsup: YES U R MY ALPHA AND OMEGA
> 
> I got it new and I wrote about low QC in factory so I do not know how did u come to a conclusion that it was bought used - do u think i paid 400 E for used Mattoc when new ones are 450
> 
> ...


Actually what mullen said is right. Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get at. I can see that english is not your first language and you may not mean to come off the way your are so I will take that into consideration. For example, when you say you got it off a good fella, that generally implies you bought it used...

This thread, like most threads on MTBR, are to help people in a community setting. If you have specific questions or points to make, I would make them, and in smaller pieces. People will help you but if you act like a dck, you will be treated like a dck.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Macieq said:


> Hello.
> 
> I became Mattoc Expert owner recently and here is my storry.
> 
> ...


Oh boy! I've come in a bit late but you should cut your losses mate. Sell it and buy something else.

I bought mine brand new from Wiggle a year ago for €235. It's a sweet fork that does everything it should and all dials and adjustments work as advertised. Best fork I've ever ridden.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Macieq said:


> I wrote already so read it man ****ing read it
> 
> And write something about anything else i wrote.
> 
> Why did write this post? What for? Everything was already said.


You're angry man! I'm pretty sure Santa won't be visiting this year.


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Boom King said:


> You're angry man! I'm pretty sure Santa won't be visiting this year.


Don't say that. We (germans)'re all angry for a week now..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Well I now have a thin walled deep 8mm socket, all thanks to a $4 socket from the local hardware store, the dremel gently clamped in a bench vice and the socket hanging off the front of a drill. It's not pretty, but it works.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll try to answer all your questions. I'll ignore the rest.



Macieq said:


> If the foam compensator is not meant to remove all air then why putting any - in fact they are very little short to be airless and that was the initial design idea so how about it


The foam compensator is to prevent foaming and the noise resulting from that. It works as intended. The shim is simply to retain the foam on the shaft.
The oil level on these forks has only a narrow range, a few mm outside that and you either foam oil or struggle to get full compression.

Oil spec is 15 cSt @40C. ISO15.



Macieq said:


> HBO is a needle that closes the circuit and Manitou HBO opens the circuit.
> Makes no sense
> 
> Why would u open at the very end of stroke
> ...


HBO is a cup and cone that meet in the last 20mm of stroke to capture oil and cushion the fork if it still has high shaft speed that deep into the stroke. The adjuster controls spring preload on a ball that acts as a pressure regulator on the HBO.

Adjust HBO tighter and the HBO operates at higher pressure. 
Adjust the HBO looser and the HBO is regulated to a lower max pressure. This adjustment is necesary as bike riders can easily vary in weight by 3x and riding style compounds that. One HBO setting does not work well for all riders.



Macieq said:


> Someone mentioned breaking the threaded part in this article so wake up.
> 
> It is designed like this on purpose as it could be easily designed to be bombproof- easily


I have seen broken foot nuts. But almost always the owner admits to turning it the wrong way. I broke one myself this way back in 2004.



Macieq said:


> Did anyone noticed what happens to the oil if u move the rebound damper in the stanchion on max. rebound?
> 
> I tried it as i was curious and despite having the piston way below the oil surface, the oil itself (damping fluid) got emulsified.
> 
> ...


If you stroke the rebound without the compression in place then it will cavitate and this will show any emulsified air in the oil as bubbles.

The compression assembly is required to build pressure higher than the level of the rebound circuit blow-off and prevent cavitation.

Regarding upgrading the Expert to Pro damper. In addition to the lower rebound assembly, the upper compression assembly has a different HBO cone and different valving as the displaced oil volumes are different (different rebound shaft sizes).


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## fjonzo (Jun 8, 2016)

Made 2 videos to demonstrate the stiction issue with my Manitou Marvel Expert (never mind the dirt). Since I'm in the process of purchasing a Mattoc (or not), would appreciate if a Mattoc owner could produce a similar video.

Rebound Damping full (note the ticking sound at the beging of stroke):





No Rebound Damping (a little tick/stiction but still acceptable). Note that annoying sound of bottom out. I had this in race while going over subsequent bumps, quite embarassing.. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Boom King said:


> Oh boy! I've come in a bit late but you should cut your losses mate. Sell it and buy something else.
> 
> I bought mine brand new from Wiggle a year ago for €235. It's a sweet fork that does everything it should and all dials and adjustments work as advertised. Best fork I've ever ridden.


You are clown and i doubt u bought expert or pro

U have comp version

I might be wrong but i doubt


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Dougal said:


> I'll try to answer all your questions. I'll ignore the rest.
> 
> The foam compensator is to prevent foaming and the noise resulting from that. It works as intended. The shim is simply to retain the foam on the shaft.
> The oil level on these forks has only a narrow range, a few mm outside that and you either foam oil or struggle to get full compression.
> ...


Already said that i overtightened it



Dougal said:


> If you stroke the rebound without the compression in place then it will cavitate and this will show any emulsified air in the oil as bubbles.
> 
> The compression assembly is required to build pressure higher than the level of the rebound circuit blow-off and prevent cavitation.


U do not need assy to build pressure - makes no sense what u write

Do not tell me that this foam is gonna prevent from air mixing.



Dougal said:


> Regarding upgrading the Expert to Pro damper. In addition to the lower rebound assembly, the upper compression assembly has a different HBO cone and different valving as the displaced oil volumes are different (different rebound shaft sizes).


Did u ****ing read what i wrote - u di not

If the HBO releases pressure than show this to me on the graph please.

SO U WILL GIVE YOUR HAND TO BE CUT OFF AND U STATE STILL THAT THE AIR WONT MIX WITHOUT IFP BECAUSE THERE IS PRESSURE

BUAHAHA


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually what mullen said is right. Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get at. I can see that english is not your first language and you may not mean to come off the way your are so I will take that into consideration. For example, when you say you got it off a good fella, that generally implies you bought it used...


How was it right - what mullen said - according to u - elaborate

Where do u see that English is not my first language - tell me who the **** do u think u r



Vespasianus said:


> This thread, like most threads on MTBR, are to help people in a community setting. If you have specific questions or points to make, I would make them, and in smaller pieces. People will help you but if you act like a dck, you will be treated like a dck.


Idiotic explanations with allen key with pressure buil;d up needed for the damper so it does not aerate damping fluid what ****ing else

And all u said is mullen was right and u r time waster

Elaborate on where he was right

U picked a fragment with good fella and you base your knowledge on that small detail when i clearly stated as i wrote that it is unacceptable for the fork to lack QC to be without lubricants.



mullen119 said:


> Sounds like you bought used, so blame the oil on the previous owner. I use 10ml of oil and have never had an issue. Original spec was 15ml. Not sure where 3.5ml came from, I haven't seen that number anywhere. Ask fox about low oil levels from the factory.





Macieq said:


> How could a company release a fork without any lubrication or with so much that it causes hydrolock?


I got it new and I wrote about low QC in factory so I do not know how did u come to a conclusion that it was bought used - do u think i paid 400 E for used Mattoc when new ones are 450

IF the mullen is right and the HBO releases the pressure than i want to see it on the graph

All what the graph says is the increase in damping Pressure

Also if u hit the rebound shaft u can feel hbo doing something but it blows through that without any hassle.

SO once again it is Hydraulic blow off valve not Hydraulic bottom out

90% of u on this forum are idiots who do not read full articles with understanding - not to mention sensible answers

U r a self adoration circle


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Dougal said:


> I'll try to answer all your questions. I'll ignore the rest.
> 
> The compression assembly is required to build pressure higher than the level of the rebound circuit blow-off and prevent cavitation.


Thanks for the answer.

taht is why i asked the question with separating environments or pressure raise

As I wrote

SO what is the IFP for?

I think u r wrong.

Air will mix without IFP

Correct me if I am wrong and proof that I am wrong.

do not just say I am wrong


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Boom King said:


> Oh boy! I've come in a bit late but you should cut your losses mate. Sell it and buy something else.
> 
> I bought mine brand new from Wiggle a year ago for €235. It's a sweet fork that does everything it should and all dials and adjustments work as advertised. Best fork I've ever ridden.


What other forks did u ride and how would you rate them - pros and cons vs Mattoc expert or pro


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Macieq said:


> You are clown and i doubt u bought expert or pro
> 
> U have comp version
> 
> I might be wrong but i doubt


You are wrong!


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Macieq, we are all wrong, you are right. Go, buy yourself some Fox $hit and change forum please.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

RoboS said:


> Macieq, we are all wrong, you are right. Go, buy yourself some Fox $hit and change forum please.


With all due respect, Rockshox, DVO, etc. You owe it to yourself Macieq, life is too short.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> Already said that i overtightened it
> 
> U do not need assy to build pressure - makes no sense what u write
> 
> ...


Lets start with HBO. I'll explain it for you (bottoming cones)









Compression damper is at the bottom, rebound damper at the top. attached to the bottom of the rebound damper is the male bottoming cone, which during the last 20mm of travel gets inserted into the female bottoming cone attached to the compression damper. The female cone is filled with oil that needs to be purged to allow the fork to be compressed any further. There are 3 holes(orifices) in the female cone visible in the above picture and one that is not. As the male cone gets inserted into the female cone, the oil will purge through the three visible holes. As the male cone enters further and the silver seal/glide passes the holes, the number of them that are passing oil is reduced, making it harder and harder to use full travel as you near the end of the stroke.This is why the dyno charts show steps. There is also a spring loaded poppet valve you cant see that the external adjuster adjusts. It adds or subtracts preload on the spring making it harder or easier to purge oil through the 4th orifice. It is designed to be a dead blow damper at this point, but also to allow full travel when the poppet spring opens to purge the oil. If you pay for 160mm of travel, you should use all of it

Here are some dyno charts









The steps are caused by the 3 holes being passed one at a time, adding a ton of damping with each one being passed. Note how the shaft speeds effect how much damping force the cones create. @100mm/sec, it basically does nothing because the oil is easily purged from the cone. This is about as fast as you can compress by hand, and why you dont feel it by pushing down on it. As shaft speeds speed up, the oil cant escape fast enough and its effects are much more obvious. You can only get these shaft speeds by riding.









This graph shows how well the adjuster works. 0 clicks is full closed (clicks are always counted from closed), max 3 is full open. The adjust allows you to control how much force it takes to open the poppet(the trail off at the end) and use full travel.

Fox has used this basic design in the past, as well as avalanche cartridges and a few other for dampers, its the standard in how hydraulic bottom out works. Much nicer than just a rubber bumper that is only effects the last couple mm of travel and is only meant to prevent metal on metal contact

As for the foam compensator, as said before, it was never designed or intended to create an airless system. Im not sure where you got that impression as it has never been stated by Manitou. Its designed to keep air to a minimum to keep aeration of the oil down and damping consistent without the high costs of a bladder system. Just because a damping is in a cartridge does not mean its air free. Most of suntours cartridges use air or nitrogen as a compensator, only the highest end models us spring loaded IFPs. Most Rock Shox forks use only air, the Charger damper is the exception and is only used in a few of their many forks. Same with most X fusion forks as well as many other brands. Its very common. Using the foam to raise oil levels well above the damper piston works well and while is doesnt prevent all aeration, it does make it a very uncommon event. Especially compared to the other dampers on the market that use air only.

Thats all I have time for.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Lets start with HBO. I'll explain it for you (bottoming cones)
> 
> View attachment 1112045
> 
> ...


Dougal made an idiot out of himself by saying there needs to be pressure so it does not aerate

Why is the IFP then?

YES U MADE A GOOD POINT HERE - WELL EXECUTED

I HAD COMP AND REBOUND DAMPERS DISMANTLED SO I KNOW THE DESIGN.

WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT IT ACTUALLY RELEASES PRESSURE BUILD UP IN STAGES RATHER THAN BLOCKING CIRCUIT WHICH REAL HBO WOULD DO WITH A NEEDLE CLOSING THE BYPASS.

BTW

750mm/sec IS NOT A LOT

CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT 750mm/SEC IS NOTHING

Suspension shaft can move above 2500mm/SEC easily

HOW ABOUT THIS


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

boom king said:


> you are wrong!


so u got mattoc expert or pro for 235

That is really interesting.

Can u prove ?


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Boom King said:


> You're angry man! I'm pretty sure Santa won't be visiting this year.


Santa was on the 7th of December if u missed it.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

robos said:


> macieq, we are all wrong, you are right. Go, buy yourself some fox $hit and change forum please.


you talk nonsense **** and u did not bring anything to that topic.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

robos said:


> macieq, we are all wrong, you are right. Go, buy yourself some fox $hit and change forum please.


why do u think fox is ****?

A statement like this means that you are **** and like some of your self adore circle friends - you do not bring anything to the topic


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> Dougal made an idiot out of himself by saying there needs to be pressure so it does not aerate
> 
> Why is the IFP then?


Dougal is the owner of shockcraft suspension and one of the smartest guys on the forums. He is overly qualified to answer any of these questions.

The check plate on the rebound damper creates enough compression damping to need pressure to avoid cavitation, but not enough to need an ifp. The damper itself, along with air pocket and foam compensator create enough pressure to avoid cavitation issues. Without a compression damper installed, the check plate will create enough damping force to cause cavitation. It doesn't take much pressure to overcome it, but it needs some.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> dougal is the owner of shockcraft suspension and one of the smartest guys on the forums. He is overly qualified to answer any of these questions.
> 
> The check plate on the rebound damper creates enough compression damping to need pressure to avoid cavitation, but not enough to need an ifp. The damper itself, along with air pocket and foam compensator create enough pressure to avoid cavitation issues. Without a compression damper installed, the check plate will create enough damping force to cause cavitation. It doesn't take much pressure to overcome it, but it needs some.


but it creates that pressure by pressing the air

are u sure 100%

why would u need ifp then? Pressure is small enough to stop aeration according to you!

U wrote:

The check plate on the rebound damper creates enough compression damping to need pressure to avoid cavitation, but not enough to need an ifp

YOU R NAIVE AND STUPID

The pressure in the damping leg can rise dramatically depending on oil level and u say it is not enough.

So if u turn the bike over the air wont get to oil according to you

Do not turn over as it gets aerated - remember to tell you r oil not to mix - otherwise he wont listen to you


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

boom king said:


> you're angry man! I'm pretty sure santa won't be visiting this year.


you r time waster and you only make mess on this topic - you r off the topic

IF THAT IS ALL U HAVE TO SAY THEN **** OFF


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

fjonzo said:


> Made 2 videos to demonstrate the stiction issue with my Manitou Marvel Expert (never mind the dirt). Since I'm in the process of purchasing a Mattoc (or not), would appreciate if a Mattoc owner could produce a similar video.
> 
> Rebound Damping full (note the ticking sound at the beging of stroke):
> 
> ...


There is something wrong inside.

Maybe something detached inside - i.e. HBO cone.

Strip the fork and examine it.

Are u sure you r talking about stiction?

I doubt it is stiction.

I use loctite or teflon tape everywhere


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Macieq said:


> Dougal made an idiot out of himself by saying there needs to be pressure so it does not aerate
> 
> Why is the IFP then?
> 
> ...


750mm/SEC

Hi- Speed

BUAHAHA

DO U ****ING ANALIZE ANYTHING

IT SEEMS THAT U ARE WRONG

I WONDER IF THE GRAPHS ARE NOT MADE TO FIT PUBLIC BECAUSE 750mm/SEC is NOT A HIGH SPEED AT ALL

HOW ABOUT 3000mm/sec - this is what Hi-speed is.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

This is my last response to you



Macieq said:


> Dougal made an idiot out of himself by saying there needs to be pressure so it does not aerate
> 
> Why is the IFP then?
> 
> ...


Hydraulic bottom out does not release pressure is stages, it builds pressure in stages. When enough compression force is dissipated, the oil can flow free enough to use the remaining travel if needed.

There is no such thing as a needle closing a bypass as a former of bottom out. Needle/orifice is used for low speed compression adjustment.



Macieq said:


> but it creates that pressure by pressing the air
> 
> are u sure 100%
> 
> ...


How much pressure is needed to prevent cavitation depends on how much damping force the rebound damper creates. In the case of inlined rear shocks or forks that use a Midvalve (basicly a shim stack instead of a check plate to aid in compression damping), an IFP is or other high pressure compensation is needed to stop cavitation. In other dampers with very weak Springs on the check plate, nothing is need to prevent it.

An air pocket does not mean the oil will become aerated. Flipping a bike over doesn't matter, agitation is needed for the oil to foam and be omega aerated.

Cavitation and aeration is not the same thing. This is where you are getting confused.

BTW

I never stated whether 750mm/sec was fast or slow. Though its considered high speed in the bicycle world, speeds can go much higher. Do you know how to read or is comprehension your only issue?


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> there is no such thing as a needle closing a bypass as a former of bottom out. Needle/orifice is used for low speed compression adjustment.


because mullen says so - because he did not see one yet


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Macieq, you should leave, now!

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L21 using Tapatalk


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

robos said:


> macieq, you should leave, now!
> 
> Sent from my huawei vns-l21 using tapatalk


do not tell me what i should and what i should not do u retarded specimen


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

I love you too <3 <3 <3 <3 
Now leave


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

You think you can compress a fork 750mm/sec by hand and you are calling me stupid and niave? 


Bye falisha


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

DO U HAVE ANY IMAGINATION?

DO U ****ING REALISE THAT 750mm/sec is nothing

CANT U ****ING VISUALIZE THIS ?

MOVE YOUR HAND TOP TO BOTTOM BY 75 CM in ONE SEC

I KNOW THAT FOR U ONE SEC IS VERY LITTLE BUT STILL IT TAKES A WHILE...


mullen119 said:


> Macieq said:
> 
> 
> > You think you can compress a fork 750mm/sec by hand and you are calling me stupid and niave?
> ...


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Macieq, please control your language and tone, unless you want to be timed out or banned.

Thanks for understanding


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

crisillo said:


> macieq, please control your language and tone, unless you want to be timed out or banned.
> 
> Thanks for understanding


what about the others starting straight away from u r wrong etc

what about people who make posts and do not bring anything _ spoiling the topic

what about people claiming they did not say something when i proove they did

what about people claiming that there is no chance for damping fluid aeration because there is a pressure rise ..but not big enough


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Macieq said:


> u r a moderator and u should control what people say not only in terms of bad language but also a technical consistency.


Not really, the forums are there to discuss and for people to make up their own minds. Read the posting guidelines and you will see why I interfered.

Again, you may argue and defend your points, just don't insult or curse in the process.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Macieq said:


> Maybe this is the mattoc HBO problem
> 
> Its HBO maximum seems to be 750mm/sec which is simply a low speed and the graph shows it goes down after evereything
> 
> ...


What do u think about that point of view ?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

We all think obvious troll is too obvious and won't be long for these forums.

Also, I think I'd trust Mullen, Dougal and others whose suspension knowledge is a lot deeper than your apparently superficial, hamfisted and generally pointless ramblings.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

RoboS said:


> Macieq, we are all wrong, you are right. Go, buy yourself some Fox $hit and change forum please.


I think Fox has outstanding QC and very high level of finish on their products.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Kiwiplague said:


> We all think obvious troll is too obvious and won't be long for these forums.
> 
> Also, I think I'd trust Mullen, Dougal and others whose suspension knowledge is a lot deeper than your apparently superficial, hamfisted and generally pointless ramblings.


Another idiotic off top

U can point where they were right.

Where one stated that air wont mix because there is right pressure build up but not too much so I say IFP and they are silent

Or that i am completely wrong about the compensating foam but in fact they were very little short to achieve airless system - at the end why would u use the compensator at all when u can build up that right magical mythical epical amount of right pressure without anything inside.
Why would you car for removing air from the charger damper i.e. then

Or

When they elaborate about HBO's high speed when it is 750mm/sec which is low speed - very very super snail low

Or when i mentioned IFP then mullen says it is different check valve and it is ok

I say that the air will mix into oil if it is not separated or removed .

Elaborate on this KIWI and do not tell me ******** about who u trust

I trust knowledge

BTW

HBO above 750mm/sec blows off so anything over 750mm/sec will fly through that blow off - am i right?


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

These are my points


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> Another idiotic off top
> 
> U can point where they were right.
> 
> ...


This guy can't even read a dyno charts. 750mm/sec was a example speed on the graph. Fast speeds would create higher bottoming resistance, just like the 750 created more than the 500 under it. It doesn't just stop working at 750.

Somehow me posting a graph I didn't make that uses 750mm/sec makes me think that's fast. 750mm/sec or 30in/sec is not fast, but it's far from "snails pace" and is faster then anyone can Cycle by hand.

If we stop feeding him, maybe he will just go away.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> This guy can't even read a dyno charts. 750mm/sec was a example speed on the graph. Fast speeds would create higher bottoming resistance, just like the 750 created more than the 500 under it. It doesn't just stop working at 750.
> 
> Somehow me posting a graph I didn't make that uses 750mm/sec makes me think that's fast. 750mm/sec or 30in/sec is not fast, but it's far from "snails pace" and is faster then anyone can Cycle by hand.
> 
> If we stop feeding him, maybe he will just go away.


YOU R NUTS MAN

IT DOES STOP AT MAX SETTING WHICH ON THE GRAPH IS HOW MANY m/cm?


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Simply because it is the max rate of the small spring that presses the ball inside HBO assembly...or shall i call it Hydraulic Blow Off?


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> this guy can't even read a dyno charts. 750mm/sec was a example speed on the graph. Fast speeds would create higher bottoming resistance, just like the 750 created more than the 500 under it. It doesn't just stop working at 750.
> 
> Somehow me posting a graph i didn't make that uses 750mm/sec makes me think that's fast. 750mm/sec or 30in/sec is not fast, but it's far from "snails pace" and is faster then anyone can cycle by hand.
> 
> If we stop feeding him, maybe he will just go away.


u lost your brain man - seriously

HOW THE HELL DOES IT CONTINUE WITH THE FORCE WHEN THE GRAPH GIVES ALL THE SETTING OF HBO LEVER ?

DO U TURN OUTSIDE OF 5 OR DO U MAGICALLY STIFFEN THE SPRING THAT RELEASES THE PRESSURE OUTSIDE THE FACTORY SCALE WITH SOME MAGIC WIFI WOUND SYSTEM


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> And i tell u why.
> 
> Because this is the max rate of that spring that holds the ball that closes the hole in the blow off valve
> 
> halleluyah


Not true. But even if it was, the port is very small and would still provide a lot of damping as the oil would have to squeeze through it.

Realistically, if you are hitting the last 20mm of travel at shaft speeds over 1000mm/sec, you are in for some serious problems

Praise jebus


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> not true. But even if it was, the port is very small and the oil would still provide a lot of damping as the oil would have to squeeze through it.
> 
> Praise jebus


seriously u r nutz

and secondly

remember how i told about tapping the shaft at close proximity to blow off engagement to see how it reacts to various hbo settings when pushed ( tapped ) to make it as fast as possible

no change at all

that actually fits the graphs

it seems that for anything above 750 hbo does not exists as it blows it off through that hole - no matter how small it is according to your ming vase priceless elaborations


----------



## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Macieq said:


> I think Fox has outstanding QC and very high level of finish on their products.


So, how many fox products have you owned? My experience with fox is terrible. Product performance average and reliability poor (stanchions worn from bushings, exploding damper bladders etc). And they are terribly expensive.


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> realistically, if you are hitting the last 20mm of travel at shaft speeds over 1000mm/sec, you are in for some serious problems
> 
> praise jebus


stiffer spring for the hbo assy that is the first thing that comes to my mind

that is exactly what i said at the beginning

it is not working as it should


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

I DID NOT RIDE IT YET AS I PUT IT APART TO LUBRICATE EVERYTHING AS IT SHOULD BE.

FACTORY SETTINGS SURPRISED ME WITH LOW AIR PRESSURE AND DESPITE ONLY DRY TESTING AT HOME IT NOW FEELS A LOT SMOOTHER AND PLUSHIER THAN THE 55 RC3 I HAD INSTALLED BEFORE MATTOC

SO GENERALLY THESE WERE TWO THINGS I DID NOT LIKE ABOUT IT

HBO THAT U CANT FEEL 

FOAM COMPENSATOR THAT DOES NOT ALLOW FOR A FULL LEVEL OIL TOP UP 

I HAVE CHOSEN MATTOC BECAUSE IT USES THIS FOAM AND I WAS HOPING THAT THERE IS NO AIR AT ALL - LIKE IN PIKE's BLADDER BUT THE BLADDER CAN BURST AND PIKES ARE KNOWN WITH THEIR PROBLEM.

i LIKE THE WAY HI AND SO CALLED LO SPEED WORKS - I CAN FEEL THEM AND U CAN USE IT LIKE A PLATFORM - THIS IS REALLY NICE.

I THINK THAT AIR RELEASE SYSTEM ON TOP OF THE DAMPER SHOULD BE MANDATORY IN EVERY GOOD FORK

MATTOC SEEMS TO BE A VERY GOOD FORK - I AM GOING TO SEE HOW IT PERFORMS OVER TIME AND HOW DURABLE IT IS AS I AM NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BUT I MIGHT COMPARE IT TO SOMETHING ELSE

PAY ATTENTION TO OIL LEVEL AS IT IS CRUCIAL AND BEST U CAN DO IS EXPERIMENT WITH VARIOUS LEVELS AND SEE HOW THE REBOUND SHAFT BEHAVES BUT NEVER GO BELOW 77mm AS IT CAN BE LETHAL


----------



## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

RoboS said:


> So, how many fox products have you owned? My experience with fox is terrible. Product performance average and reliability poor (stanchions worn from bushings, exploding damper bladders etc). And they are terribly expensive.


Honestly my only experience comes from RP23 but it seems that with such a big range of systems and models it does not mean a lot.

My impression was that the surfaces were very smooth finished - for me that is an indicator of quality.
Seal holds the fox fluid better than my current RS Monarch for instance - not much anyway but fox was very tight
Also my Monarch made that wooshing sound that people describe but it was due to lack of lubricant and it also has a shaft finish that makes that sound but once u put lubrication inside an air chamber it runs in and becomes smooth - simply gets polished which surprised me .

I know that fox and maybe others had problems with bladders but i was not having any fork with that system

On Pike Bladder bursts from trapped air buil up i suppose - like it would everywhere.

But look at the rebound shaft tolerance - a lot of play

Vorsprung Suspensions guy made a really good film about the Float X2 vs CCDBair and the bushing in he collar and play and wear on CCDB as far as i remember - recommended btw


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Suspension design would be a lot easier of magical port holes existed that could destroy all damping force over a set speed. Instead of reaching ever increasing forces proportional to the square of shaft speed. 

Merry Christmas to all the Troll Hunters out there. I highly recommend the movie too.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

dougal said:


> suspension design would be a lot easier of magical port holes existed that could destroy all damping force over a set speed.
> 
> Merry christmas to all the troll hunters out there. I highly recommend the movie too.


keep making an idiot out of yourself

SO U R A SUSPENSION SPECIALIST AND U CLAIM THE AIR WILL NOT MIX INTO THE DAMPING FLUID BECAUSE IT IS PRESSED BY AIR?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Macieq said:


> so u got mattoc expert or pro for 235
> 
> That is really interesting.
> 
> Can u prove ?


I don't have to prove anything to you but here goes anyway


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

dougal said:


> i'll try to answer all your questions. I'll ignore the rest.
> 
> The foam compensator is to prevent foaming and the noise resulting from that. It works as intended. The shim is simply to retain the foam on the shaft.
> The oil level on these forks has only a narrow range, a few mm outside that and you either foam oil or struggle to get full compression.
> ...


cavitation is not emulsifying

cavitation is a phenomenon and emulsifying is getting air into damping fluid

if the gas and oil are not separated the emulsifying will occur and u said that at right pressure they wont

the only right pressure at which they would not mix would be your living room pressure when the fork is not ridden

no comments


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

Boom King said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you but here goes anyway


That is super cheap then and i am surprised they were costing only that much back in 2015


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Suspension design would be a lot easier of magical port holes existed that could destroy all damping force over a set speed. Instead of reaching ever increasing forces proportional to the square of shaft speed.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all the Troll Hunters out there. I highly recommend the movie too.


Merry Christmas Dougal! Wishing you and your family well.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Suspension design would be a lot easier of magical port holes existed that could destroy all damping force over a set speed. Instead of reaching ever increasing forces proportional to the square of shaft speed.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all the Troll Hunters out there. I highly recommend the movie too.


Merry Christmas to you too Dougal. Cheers.


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

dougal said:


> suspension design would be a lot easier of magical port holes existed that could destroy all damping force over a set speed. Instead of reaching ever increasing forces proportional to the square of shaft speed.
> 
> Merry christmas to all the troll hunters out there. I highly recommend the movie too.


now u r talking this because you made false statements and you have no balls to admit

u are trying to make it sarcastic knowing u were wrong


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

^ how is this guy not banned yet?


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## Macieq (Dec 23, 2016)

I make it the other way

Cavitation is when fluid evaporates and gets suspended in the damping fluid so it must be boiling at some point during pressure drop but after it is suppose to come back to liquid state

How come that damping fluid in the stanchion got aerated despite the piston being way below surface in every stroke point?

That is why I asked about swirl that creates a path for the air .

I do not see any other way of separating oil and air but the mechanical membrane

Building any pressure above the oil won't stop it from aerating unless u separate the environments.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Macieq said:


> banned for what?
> 
> For a knowledge


Which explains a lot with you then, because knowledge is something you seem to be lacking, as well as manners, etiquette and general civility online.
Even if half of what you say is correct, how do you think anyone will take you seriously when every other post is nothing but insults and swearing at other users? Does that work in your normal life? No? Then why online here?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Macieq said:


> banned for what?
> 
> For a knowledge
> 
> ...


Macieq, you have had most of your question and comments addressed by two of the most respected people on these boards. You have responded in the most petulant and obnoxious way and you are wondering why people are wondering if you will be band?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Macieq said:


> banned for what?


For ruining this thread with 57 useless posts in one day. Sometimes you even quote yourself and then proceed to rip into what you previously posted.

Dougal is the authorised service provider, including warranty work, for Manitou in New Zealand and Australia. I and anyone else with any sense, will take his advice over yours any day of the week.

You have done nothing other than add a few useless pages to what is otherwise a great thread, full of usefull info for anyone interested in purchasing a Mattoc, or in maximising the performance of their Mattoc.

Your posts are abusive, obnoxious and in many cases offensive. You can't be banned too soon IMO.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Every forum has a guy like this. Seems like a mental imbalance if he's this worked up. Hate to see what he's like in the actual world interacting with real people.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

Macieq said:


> REST IS BLIND LIKE A HORSE IN THE MINE


Wasn't it Will Rodgers who said "one shouldn't approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any angle"?

It is obvious what we have here...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

This guy uses different user names (and gets caught via our reports to mods) to go and loose his mind being a jerk on different threads. Been a problem for a couple months. Just report him.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm not even worried about it, as said the guy has some issues I really wish he'd seek help for. Posts and such will be removed as soon as mods / admin return from holiday.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

We get it macieq, you're butthurt. Like, really really butthurt. But it's going to be ok. I promise. Just breathe and we will all get through this together. 

😅


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Merry Christmas all! About time to start dinner for us.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

I know who's getting banned first, and it won't be me, Mullen, Dougal, boom king or anyone else but you.

You really are just a mindless little troll and you won't be missed at all.

(Go on, reply in ALL CAPS with some random insults and terrible buahaha laughter etc etc)


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Wow you have a user on the Mattoc thread who wins every race he enters as he is special.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Macieq said:


> IF HBO WORKS REMARKABLY WELL THEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF I HIT 1000mm/SEC AND HOW MUCH IS IT POSSIBLE TO HIT MORE THAN THAT?
> 
> AND WHAT MAX SHAFT VELOCITY WOULD U EXPECT?


This has all been posted already. Bicycle forks peak around 2000mm/sec at the point of impact, and the spring and compression damper quickly slow it down. You will not see these velocities in the last few mm of travel as an impact with the bottom out bumper at these speeds could compromise the fork structure. The graphs I posted do not show what the peak velocities the HBO can handle as that's not what they are meant to do. They are meant to show how the adjuster works and what different end of stroke velocities would look like. The HBO system is not a regressive valve, so when when poppet opens, the damping remains consistent until the shaft speeds slow. It's not going to just dump all oil and have no effect. Funny that you think you know more than a team of engineers.

At this point, I'm feel like I'm try to explain complex algebra to a box of cereal. The only reason I even responsed is to keep anyone who may read your posts (if they dont get deleted when you get banned) from thinking anything you say has validity to it. You consistently say prove it to me, which I bring graphs and explanations to the forums where you bring broken English and insults with no proof of anything you say. I'm still waiting for you to show my a needle orifice hydraulic bottoming system that affects only the last few mm of travel and not the entire damping curve. Funny how that is one of the only posts you didn't respond to.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Who is the moderator of these forums? This thread should be cleaned up as it is a very useful for most everyone.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

It'll get cleaned up if people report him

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> It'll get cleaned up if people report him
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I did that a couple of days ago.

106 ussless posts and counting.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Boom King said:


> I did that a couple of days ago.
> 
> 106 ussless posts and counting.


He has been banned now if you look under his user name.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Rick Draper said:


> He has been banned now if you look under his user name.


Hopefully the last 3 pages get deleted and this thread can remain useful


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I've been musing this for awhile, does anyone think the fork gets firmer during longer rides? I noticed the same thing with my Pike RC which I despised. It seems that beyond the hour mark my fork seems to firm up, however I'm not sure if it's my imagination or most likely that I'm getting tired and so notice the small bumps more. 
My riding usually consists of slow grinds up and then riding down as fast as possible so I think it's most likely that I'm getting tired.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Notched said:


> I've been musing this for awhile, does anyone think the fork gets firmer during longer rides? I noticed the same thing with my Pike RC which I despised. It seems that beyond the hour mark my fork seems to firm up, however I'm not sure if it's my imagination or most likely that I'm getting tired and so notice the small bumps more.
> My riding usually consists of slow grinds up and then riding down as fast as possible so I think it's most likely that I'm getting tired.


My riding is similar and I've not noticed. Everything does, however, seem more harsh when tired.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> My riding is similar and I've not noticed. Everything does, however, seem more harsh when tired.


I have noticed it with every air fork I have owned, some worse then others. I always chalked it up to friction causing the air to warm and raise pressure slightly. Just a theory and I have no proof, but it was never a problem with my coil forks. My Mattoc seems to be a little better than my Pike or Minute was but it's still noticable. Not enough to bother me though


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Notched said:


> I've been musing this for awhile, does anyone think the fork gets firmer during longer rides? I noticed the same thing with my Pike RC which I despised. It seems that beyond the hour mark my fork seems to firm up, however I'm not sure if it's my imagination or most likely that I'm getting tired and so notice the small bumps more.
> My riding usually consists of slow grinds up and then riding down as fast as possible so I think it's most likely that I'm getting tired.


Actually, I just had the same sensation the other day. Ended up rebuilding the fork (re-lube) and everything is back to normal. I did notice that the air and IRT pistons had almost no lube on them, which I wonder if that was the culprit.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> I have noticed it with every air fork I have owned, some worse then others. I always chalked it up to friction causing the air to warm and raise pressure slightly. Just a theory and I have no proof, but it was never a problem with my coil forks. My Mattoc seems to be a little better than my Pike or Minute was but it's still noticable. Not enough to bother me though


If it was due to friction causing the air to warm and raise pressure, wouldn't it cool back down on a long grind uphill?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> If it was due to friction causing the air to warm and raise pressure, wouldn't it cool back down on a long grind uphill?


You would think. I never put much thought into it. It never happened on my coil Lyrik or Manitou Drake, so I just figured it was a little heat in the air spring. I'd be curious to hear other theories as mine is only based on a few minutes of thought and a few forks doing similar things.

Takes me about 5 miles before I notice it a little. About 9 before it reaches peak and it stays at that level the rest of the ride. My Pike was much worse than the others I had. One of the reasons I sold it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Notched said:


> I've been musing this for awhile, does anyone think the fork gets firmer during longer rides? I noticed the same thing with my Pike RC which I despised. It seems that beyond the hour mark my fork seems to firm up, however I'm not sure if it's my imagination or most likely that I'm getting tired and so notice the small bumps more.
> My riding usually consists of slow grinds up and then riding down as fast as possible so I think it's most likely that I'm getting tired.


I think it's air piston lubrication.

I think I hit this recently and while I had serviced the lower leg oils right before the ride, I hadn't checked the air piston lube since like April.

I should really check that before my next ride!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I think it's air piston lubrication.
> 
> I think I hit this recently and while I had serviced the lower leg oils right before the ride, I hadn't checked the air piston lube since like April.
> 
> I should really check that before my next ride!


Me too. Been since June for me.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> I think it's air piston lubrication.
> 
> I think I hit this recently and while I had serviced the lower leg oils right before the ride, I hadn't checked the air piston lube since like April.
> 
> I should really check that before my next ride!


Is there an easy way? Can you just open up the chamber and pop some slicko on the piston head and stanchion walls?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Is there an easy way? Can you just open up the chamber and pop some slicko on the piston head and stanchion walls?


Depends how long your fingers are!

I drizzled some rwc air piston lube down. I'll do it properly in a few weeks when I've got another frame to swap parts to.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I drizzled some rwc air piston lube down. I'll do it properly in a few weeks when I've got another frame to swap parts to.


Will that thick oil move trough seal to negative chamber, or this issue is solved with new air piston?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

wow... Major cleanup there... What a tool. Anyway, try to not quote trolls like that as I just end up deleting all the post that Quote such a person.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for the clean-up, good work. Hadn't looked here for a few days over Christmas, checked in this morning: 'what has happened here!?'. Some of you have quite the patience and restraint. 



phreeky said:


> Well I now have a thin walled deep 8mm socket, all thanks to a $4 socket from the local hardware store, the dremel gently clamped in a bench vice and the socket hanging off the front of a drill. It's not pretty, but it works.


I did it similarly last week, up till now I used the 4mm hex method. Clamped the socket in a workmate and lots of passes with a Dremel. Doesn't look so refined, but it gets the job done.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> wow... Major cleanup there... What a tool. Anyway, try to not quote trolls like that as I just end up deleting all the post that Quote such a person.


Much appreciated 
Quite surprising how much someone is willing to waste their time just spouting utter trash.

Have adjusted my settings on mine now again.
95kg aggressive rider. 
Main spring: 73psi
IRT: 130psi
Comp LS: 2
Comp HS: 6
Reb: 7

Still manage full travel, and nicely supported even when riding steep dh.
Paired it up with the McLeod again on the back. As recon my spring was too light on the elka as was blowing through the travel too quickly.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Will that thick oil move trough seal to negative chamber, or this issue is solved with new air piston?


I don't know how it'll go longer term. This is just a band aid until I do it properly in a few weeks.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Has anyone been able to get a feel for how the new fox 34 compares to the mattoc? I've got a mattoc expert with IRT but am curious about the new fox 34, also especially curious as to what the Avalanche modded forks are like but that's a whole other deal. Prob gonna be hard to find a comparison between a mattoc and an avy'd fork.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Coleman22 said:


> Has anyone been able to get a feel for how the new fox 34 compares to the mattoc? I've got a mattoc expert with IRT but am curious about the new fox 34, also especially curious as to what the Avalanche modded forks are like but that's a whole other deal. Prob gonna be hard to find a comparison between a mattoc and an avy'd fork.


Haven't had the chance to try a new 34, but the avy dampers are excellent as long as you don't have the need for a pedaling platform. I'd lean that way if that works for you and you don't mind the high cost. Outside of the avy cart, the Mattoc has the best damper for stock forks imo because of how the hsc adds physical preload to the stack rather then just putting pressure on a always preloaded stack. Being able to externally control preload helps with square edge spiking


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> wow... Major cleanup there... What a tool. Anyway, try to not quote trolls like that as I just end up deleting all the post that Quote such a person.


Thank you very much. 100 odd posts plus associated quotes is no mean feat.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Coleman22 said:


> Has anyone been able to get a feel for how the new fox 34 compares to the mattoc? I've got a mattoc expert with IRT but am curious about the new fox 34, also especially curious as to what the Avalanche modded forks are like but that's a whole other deal. Prob gonna be hard to find a comparison between a mattoc and an avy'd fork.


A mate has an F34 on a new Giant. Rode my Mattoc up and down the driveway and came back raving.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Just wanted to check that I can use unmodified Park Tool FR5 cassette tool to open also the air side like this?

Foto: P1240602 - MTB-News.de

Why did Manitou bother to modify the tool then at all?


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

Came back raving after a driveway ride? Hmmmm?

you musta got wanna them there enduro driveways!!!


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

arnea said:


> Just wanted to check that I can use unmodified Park Tool FR5
> 
> Why did Manitou bother to modify the tool then at all?


Yes as long as it is the deep socket version. Some models aren't. I've been using it all along, not sure why any special tooling is needed.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

I've been rolling the mattoc with a 2.8 nobby nic these last days, not the best clearance you can get (definately for dry conditions) but loads of fun!

Here it is mounted with a dtswiss xm551 rim (40mm inner)

i think the mattoc will be perfect with a 2.6 tyre


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Is that a 650B wheel? I wonder if the lowers are the same for 650B and 26"? I was measuring the clearance yesterday to see what could be squeezed into my fork and stays.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Yes it's 650b

Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Notched said:


> Is that a 650B wheel? I wonder if the lowers are the same for 650B and 26"? I was measuring the clearance yesterday to see what could be squeezed into my fork and stays.


The lowers are the same. Crown offset is the only real difference.

26+ will work nicely. To convert to 27" clearance internally you put a travel spacer under the b/o bumper on air side and swap to the longer hbo cone on the rebound damper side.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks so much for trying this, I was looking into what would fit up front. Could you please do us all one more favour? Using some calipers measure the gap to the arch (can calculate gap to the crown from that), as well to the bulges from around the dust wipers?

The gap to the arch is the most concerning to me as that's where rocks or (worse still) the tyre itself could jam and become unsafe.

It looks very close in your photo however I see that it's taken from quite close up so the perspective can make it look worse than it really is. I currently have a mudguard that would have to go (no big deal, except it would help protect the arch from any stuck rocks), but I'm looking at tyres such as the Rekon 2.8 for when the grip returns (it's current loose dusty conditions where I am, running a Magic Mary 2.35). FYI I'm using a 27.5 Flow Mk3 (29mm inner width).


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

i don't have a caliper to measure but with a meter there's like 3mm left on top (from knob) and around 2-3mm on tire side walls
















It's a fun test, but i wouldn't recommend running this tyre size with the mattoc, the risk of damaging the stanchions with rocks is high.
A nobby nic 2.6 27.5" or perhaps a 2.8 26+ should be better suited


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

Unfortunately that's a bit too close to comfort for me, however it also tells me that a 2.6 should be no problem at all - particularly on my 29mm rims. Alternatively a tyre using that casing but with a less aggressive tread would probably be fine as well.

Stay safe - wheels and forks are not flex free.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

No problem  the wheel will return on my HT, but the test gave me thought (as you) for a narrower rim with a 2.6 NN.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

phreeky said:


> Thanks, I really appreciate that.
> 
> Unfortunately that's a bit too close to comfort for me, however it also tells me that a 2.6 should be no problem at all - particularly on my 29mm rims. Alternatively a tyre using that casing but with a less aggressive tread would probably be fine as well.
> 
> *Stay safe - wheels and forks are not flex free.*


I agree. those pics above are pretty scary, payze.

have you tested the clearance to the crown by opening the cap on the damper leg and mechanically bottoming the fork? if the arch is that close, I would not be confident in the crown clearance, and only a slight bit of wheel flex during a hard impact, you're in a world of trouble.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Nope i didnt try to deflate and compress the fork, i just forced the hbo and irt to prevent the fork of bottoming out ( i'm not and heavy dude and never bottomed the mattoc even with my previous softer settings) but i think Dougal's solution with placing a bumper at the bottom of the air shaft should be ok
Anyway this was just a try and not'my current setup as a front wheel.

Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Fqqtbawl (Jan 9, 2017)

Hey all, my mattoc has not been using full travel since new max 140mm set to 160. As an aussie i bought from overseas, limiting my options. 
Fork went to Apollo (manitou distro here) and was serviced, they said it was oil levels and fixed it. Fork didnt seem to be using full travel right but much better. 
I actually measured max travel at 0psi and i could not get past 140mm still so i took the damper out and checked oil level (80mm for expert they say) Well i made up my 80mm syringe and put it in and pulled 3.5cc of oil out and it looked like it was now at the bottom of the syringe. Oil came out of damper also, so i put it back together and now have 160mm of travel and feels much more lively and smooth.
How many mm over the 80mm required would 3.5cc need to be, would this have caused my problem or have i done this completely wrong?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Your question is a bit confusing.

First you said 80mm syringe?? 3.5cc is 3.5 cubic centimeters. So 35mm. So you probably pulled out about 12mm of fluid.

If you pull out too much you can start getting air where it's not supposed to be.

Now if stock 140mm travel calls for 80mm fill from the top then 80mm at 160 travel is going to be too much. You just changed the amount of the damper shaft thats travelling through the damper by 20mm. So more empty space is required for the shaft to be able to be fully pushed into the damper. This the fact removing what you did making the fork perform better.

If you buy a manitou fork at 140mm travel and increase the travel, don't touch the fluid in the damper till your done. Then check the new level. That's your new preset for service. This is done with forks fully extended

I've made the same mistake and same problem, messed with it several times then it hit me what I did. 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Fqqtbawl (Jan 9, 2017)

tigris99 said:


> Your question is a bit confusing.
> First you said 80mm syringe??So you probably pulled out about 12mm of fluid.
> Now if stock 140mm travel calls for 80mm fill from the top then 80mm at 160 travel is going to be too much. You just changed the amount of the damper shaft thats travelling through the damper by 20mm. So more empty space is required for the shaft to be able to be fully pushed into the damper. This the fact removing what you did making the fork perform better.


Sorry for the confusion. 
When i say 80mm syringe,it is 3cc syringe with tube on the end to total 80mm of length from top to bottom using the wings of syringe to sit at top of the crown when its in the tube.
My fork was 160mm factory, i didn't know that the measurement depth was for 140mm set forks and changed for the other travel lengths, hence my removal of fluid to 80mm from top.

What depth should i be looking at for 160mm/650b?

Thanks for the quick reply also


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

You said you changed travel so I assumed it was 140 and you moved it to 160.

If the syringe is truly 80mm (from tip of nozzle to where is rests on the wings) then it sounds like they overfilled it when you had it serviced.

I use a small ruler when setting my damper fluid.

I wouldn't worry about it now if your getting 160. You truly should only be getting 10mm less than rating give or take as there is a bottom out "buffer" so you don't hammer your forks and break them by bottoming out.

If 160 says 80mm make sure it's at 80mm and ride it. My example was my forks (same damper design) were 100 I went up to 120mm and then filled up to 85 (my range is 93-80 or something like that). Wasn't getting my travel. So I did same as you basically in that I just removed some fluid and all is well.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

phreeky said:


> Thanks, I really appreciate that.
> 
> Unfortunately that's a bit too close to comfort for me, however it also tells me that a 2.6 should be no problem at all - particularly on my 29mm rims. Alternatively a tyre using that casing but with a less aggressive tread would probably be fine as well.
> 
> Stay safe - wheels and forks are not flex free.


Hello phreeky don't forget to post pics as soon as you have the 2.6 fitted on the mattoc, i'm also very tempted to do it

Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

payze said:


> Hello phreeky don't forget to post pics as soon as you have the 2.6 fitted on the mattoc, i'm also very tempted to do it


No problem, it is on its way in the mail so I'll probably have it mounted in about 1 week.

The weather will determine if I actually put any miles on it, as I live in a tropical climate and so it's a case of extremes at this time of year (southern hemisphere) - either dry and dusty or too wet to ride without ruining the trails, with a very short period of the trails being in the "sweet spot".

I also have a wider rim/tyre coming to help semi-plus the rear end too, fingers crossed it fits between the chainstays.


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## Fqqtbawl (Jan 9, 2017)

tigris99 said:


> If the syringe is truly 80mm (from tip of nozzle to where is rests on the wings) then it sounds like they overfilled it when you had it serviced.
> truly should only be getting 10mm less than rating give or take as there is a bottom out "buffer" so you don't hammer your forks and break them by bottoming out.
> If 160 says 80mm make sure it's at 80mm and ride it!


Had my thoughts it was overfilled, have ridden 40km on em over trails at my local and it is night and day over previous. It sets sag now at higher air presure but stilll feels suppler over smaller bumps.
Think i will have to get all the tools now so i can drop the lowers and check their lube too.
When i say 160 it was about 155mm from top of seals to O ring, and the HBO actually feels different when you adjust it now!


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Fqqtbawl said:


> Had my thoughts it was overfilled, have ridden 40km on em over trails at my local and it is night and day over previous. It sets sag now at higher air presure but stilll feels suppler over smaller bumps.
> Think i will have to get all the tools now so i can drop the lowers and check their lube too.
> When i say 160 it was about 155mm from top of seals to O ring, and the HBO actually feels different when you adjust it now!


I can only get 155mm out of mine and I have to try very hard (no air), so I think mine is also overfilled. Is it just a matter of removing the top from the damper side and measuring/removing from there? I'm done the lowers on mine and with a modified socket (thin-walled deep 8mm) it was extremely easy to do, in fact it's a hell of a lot easier than with the rockshox where you have to hit them to get the lowers to pop off.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

phreeky said:


> I can only get 155mm out of mine and I have to try very hard (no air), so I think mine is also overfilled. Is it just a matter of removing the top from the damper side and measuring/removing from there? I'm done the lowers on mine and with a modified socket (thin-walled deep 8mm) it was extremely easy to do, in fact it's a hell of a lot easier than with the rockshox where you have to hit them to get the lowers to pop off.


When you mean 155 of 160mm,then everything is fine. As already written here, there s a Gott im out bumper, at about 1cm thick in there ;-)


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Yesterday I tried to install the new SKF seals, the ones without flange. I just want to warn everyone, its pain in the a$$. Installation completely failed and I had to install new original seals. I can't imagine successful installation even with special tools. I also tried to heat the casting with heat gun and freeze seals in a fridge, but it didn't help. 

Does anyone have some positive experience with installation? Does the seals with flange install easier?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Yesterday I tried to install the new SKF seals, the ones without flange. I just want to warn everyone, its pain in the a$$. Installation completely failed and I had to install new original seals. I can't imagine successful installation even with special tools. I also tried to heat the casting with heat gun and freeze seals in a fridge, but it didn't help.
> 
> Does anyone have some positive experience with installation? Does the seals with flange install easier?


I installed a set of those in a Mattoc last week. They only seat in to the circlip groove but work fine. No issues.

What problem did you have?

I also installed a flanged set in another Mattoc.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I installed a set of those in a Mattoc last week. They only seat in to the circlip groove but work fine. No issues.
> 
> What problem did you have?
> 
> I also installed a flanged set in another Mattoc.


The seal didn't go straight and was extremly tight, it broke when I had to take it out to have another try. I could not press it in even a millimeter without heating the casting. I don't have proper tools for this, maybe its the only reason why I failed, but many of us don't.

Did you feel difference while installing between flanged and non-flanged ones?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

RoboS said:


> The seal didn't go straight and was extremly tight, it broke when I had to take it out to have another try. I could not press it in even a millimeter without heating the casting. I don't have proper tools for this, maybe its the only reason why I failed, but many of us don't.
> 
> Did you feel difference while installing between flanged and non-flanged ones?


They are both tight on every for they go in. Definitely a pain in the ass. You can make a tool from pvc relatively cheap.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> They are both tight on every for they go in. Definitely a pain in the ass. You can make a tool from pvc relatively cheap.


Does the flange version have metal on outer surface like the non-flange version? On pictures it looks like its covered with rubber.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> The seal didn't go straight and was extremly tight, it broke when I had to take it out to have another try. I could not press it in even a millimeter without heating the casting. I don't have proper tools for this, maybe its the only reason why I failed, but many of us don't.
> 
> Did you feel difference while installing between flanged and non-flanged ones?


The flangeless seals need to be kept straight and they are tight. My suspicion is that many manufacturers are going to tighter flangeless seals so if internal air seals pop the wiper will stay down.

The flanged seals go in much easier and are essentially self-aligning. They are all rubber coated and don't have the metal lip.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The flangeless seals need to be kept straight and they are tight. My suspicion is that many manufacturers are going to tighter flangeless seals so if internal air seals pop the wiper will stay down.
> 
> The flanged seals go in much easier and are essentially self-aligning. They are all rubber coated and don't have the metal lip.


Thanks Dougal, I will order seals with flange. And I found quite cheap tool for pressing it in. Lets hope that everything will be fine on 2nd try.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

RoboS said:


> Thanks Dougal, I will order seals with flange. And I found quite cheap tool for pressing it in. Lets hope that everything will be fine on 2nd try.


Only reason I said to go flangless is because that's what manitou uses and sent the me. Was a little tough but I got mine in with a home made tool. Post how the flanged style install goes and how they perform. I have no experience with them on a Manitou fork.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

OK so I have the Nobby Nic 27.5 2.6 mounted. I haven't got and pics yet sorry, however here is the summary:
- It's a Pacestar Snakeskin (I live in a hot dry climate - I don't need wet weather traction)
- Mounted (for all of 20min) on a Flow Mk3 (29mm inner width)
- Put it at both ~25psi and ~40psi (not necessarily riding pressure of course, but I ran the Magic Mary at low 20s so figured I'd check this tyre at 25psi)
- At 25psi it came in at 63.5mm casing, 63.0mm tread
- At 40psi it came in at 64.1mm casing, 64.0mm tread
- At 40psi the diameter came in at 710mm.
- The slight growth at 40psi tells me that it'll probably grow a tiny bit, but not much
- In the Mattoc is fits easily - sufficiently so that I should be able to leave the mudguard on without worry. The Magic Mary measured at 62mm casing, 60mm tread, 710mm diameter, so it's no surprise that this tyre fits without a problem. In fact I wouldn't complain if this tyre stretches 2mm or so all around.
- The Magic Mary diameter being the same (and tread width being close) has an awful lot to do with the huge amount of rubber on it - essentially the MM gets a lot of its size from rubber, the NN seems to get its size from air volume.
- Mounted on the Flow Mk3 without levers, inflated tubeless with a floor pump without even trying hard. No sealant in there at this stage.

I'm taking the NN off this wheel tonight and testing it on a rear wheel (25mm inner width), not because I want to run it there normally but to test clearance. Then I'll throw it back on the front for actual use. I'm waiting on a Rocket Ron 2.6 to mount on the rear.

Unfortunately I can't give a ride report in the next few days, at least not a proper one, as I'm nursing a bit of an injury. Best case scenario will be a gentle ride around on some flat sandy trails.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Thanks for the review! I also ordered a NN 2.6 and RR for the back

Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Does Manitou make a 29" equivalent of the Mattoc? I have not ridden a Manitou produce for more than 15 years but picked up a McLeod shock recently and have been amazed how good the small bump compliance is compared to my RS monarch or pushed fox float that I'm curious what how their forks compare to the competition.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

noosa2 said:


> Does Manitou make a 29" equivalent of the Mattoc? I have not ridden a Manitou produce for more than 15 years but picked up a McLeod shock recently and have been amazed how good the small bump compliance is compared to my RS monarch or pushed fox float that I'm curious what how their forks compare to the competition.


Magnum 27+ is the 29" version. But it's only 140mm.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

payze said:


> i don't have a caliper to measure but with a meter there's like 3mm left on top (from knob) and around 2-3mm on tire side walls


I don't believe this is sufficient clearance for the tire to bulge when compressed. I've seen 5-6mm recommended most places at the arch, otherwise you risk the tire impacting the arch.


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Magnum 27+ is the 29" version. But it's only 140mm.


Thanks Dougal. Any idea if a 29x2.5 would fit?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

noosa2 said:


> Thanks Dougal. Any idea if a 29x2.5 would fit?


Easily. You'll have almost half an inch under the brace and similar at bottom-out.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I have some pictures here that show how Bontrager XR2 2.35 fits: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-minute-pro-magnum-pro-1027942.html#post12973245

It is large tyre, but fulfils the Manitous 12mm minimum clearance requirement. With larger tyres you will probably go against official Manitou recommendations. I haven't checked the clearance at bottom-out though.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

payze said:


> I've been rolling the mattoc with a 2.8 nobby nic these last days, not the best clearance you can get (definately for dry conditions) but loads of fun!
> 
> Here it is mounted with a dtswiss xm551 rim (40mm inner)
> 
> ...


So how is this working out? Are you getting any buzzing/polishing of the tyre on the arch or crown with wheel flex?

The amount a tyre and wheel flexes is something I don't really have a benchmark for.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Well i just rolled it once, and for my riding it was ok, even if it was close to the arch i had no rubbing.
Anyway i didn't let it on for safety issues, but i liked very much added air volume so i ordered a 2.6 NN just as phreeky did.
Will mount it on a narrower rim than dt xm551 so clearance won't be a problem at all.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

The NN 2.6 gave similar clearance at low pressures (not yet given time to stretch) as the Magic Mary did (stretched). The Magic Mary has been put through some rough riding including near bottom-outs, no rubbing.

I generally feel that 40psi in a new tyre is a good estimate of what a tyre will be like when stretched at around 25psi - I have it at 40psi now (to stretch it) and it's still OK (although marginal) with the mudguard under the arch. Calliper measurement without the mudguard shows approx 7mm clearance between tyre and arch.

FYI I have a Rocket Ron 2.6 mounted on a narrower rim on the rear of my bike. When I had the NN on that same rim it came up around 1-2mm wider than the RR. Part of me would like to see what the RR 2.8 would be like in the Mattoc, but I can't justify spending money on more tyres at the moment sorry, so this will be my riding combo for a while.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Phreeky, how are these 2.6 on 25i rims, tire's shape is not too squeezed?

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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

A little more than I'd like. The front is a 29mm rim so better - the NN on that rim is giving a wider sidewall than tread by about 2mm, so probably just right for up front (MM was like that too). The RR out back on 25mm is the reverse, tread around 2mm rider than sidewall and more round - possibly not a bad idea to help look after the sidewall from sharp rocks.

I only tend to have sidewall wear/cut issues in the rear as it just follows along and sometimes takes a less than ideal line.

I will get some shape photos up a bit later, however here's one of the NN on a 25mm rim (it was to show chainstay clearance so ignore the circle).


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I got a ride in with the NN 2.6 in the Mattoc. Good fun, loads of grip (no signs of any slip) and at 20psi it felt really nice. It doesn't look like it was rubbing anywhere - I did get one rock go through the arch and flick out, however I have a mudguard on so it just left a faint line on the guard.

It looks to have stretched out to 64.5mm casing and 64mm tread at 20psi. I'm not sure it'll stretch too much more, I've never bothered tracking tyre stretch this much before.

I don't think a tyre bigger than this would be a good idea in the Mattoc.

This tyre combined with the Mattoc it's like riding on marshmallows - so plush!

FYI for those looking for something lighter/faster, I have a Rocket Ron 2.6 out back and it looks like it will stretch to similar size on the same rim as the NN.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Today I installed new flanged SKF seals. I bought Unior press tool for that and it was super easy. No excersive force was needed, simply pushed by hand. I don't feel much difference to stock seals on parking lot test. Trail report will be as soon as snow disappears.










Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L21 using Tapatalk


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

Hi, Just lost my full travel, not the poppet valve or oil level and forks have been working flawlessly until yesterday. Suspect internal o rings need replacing. Does anyone know the correct sizes for replacement or should I go through Manitou? Thanks in advance


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wobbem said:


> Hi, Just lost my full travel, not the poppet valve or oil level and forks have been working flawlessly until yesterday. Suspect internal o rings need replacing. Does anyone know the correct sizes for replacement or should I go through Manitou? Thanks in advance


So is the fork losing height but maintaining air pressure?


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes, any thoughts?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

wobbem said:


> Yes, any thoughts?


How much work has the fork done? Could it be wear or is it something that's suddenly shifted?

The only two possibilities are piston/stanchion ID leak or leak through the air shaft/poppet valve.


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

180 hrs. When I inflate even up to 100psi there is no support and doesn't raise to its full travel. It only firms up when I inflate the IRT


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Let all air out from main chamber, cycle a couple of times and extend it to full travel before inflating again (shock pump must be attached the whole time). If it fails to extend again, try to repeat everything some times.

I had a similar problem last week, I was checking the pressure and suddendly the fork would not extend completely. For some reason both chamber where not equalizing correctly I suppose, it took me a couple of tries to reset everything.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

wobbem said:


> 180 hrs. When I inflate even up to 100psi there is no support and doesn't raise to its full travel. It only firms up when I inflate the IRT


Yes, sounds like air is passing between the two chambers. Do what caste recommended but if that does not work, I would pull the air assembly and grease it up. If that does not fix it, you may need to get a new quad-ring for the air piston. I would contact Manitou directly and have them help. If you don't have the updated piston, this could be a good time for that.


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

Sweet, will check tonight.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Ignore me....I should read previous posts more


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Does anyone have experience with this fork for a very light rider, about 110lb or 50kg?

Would the IRT be a benefit for a rider at this weight? Do you think a custom shim stack tune from Manitou would be beneficial?

I am building my wife a new bike up but she's 8 mo. pregnant right now so she cant test my mattoc out.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

LaXCarp said:


> Does anyone have experience with this fork for a very light rider, about 110lb or 50kg?
> 
> Would the IRT be a benefit for a rider at this weight? Do you think a custom shim stack tune from Manitou would be beneficial?
> 
> I am building my wife a new bike up but she's 8 mo. pregnant right now so she cant test my mattoc out.


The compression shim stack should be fine with the high speed compression open, the rebound stack on the other hand will likely be a little stiff.

I would skip the IRT as it adds bottoming resistance and may make using full travel hard to achieve. She may be best served with a blank top cap (no iva) to get as much volume as possible.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

LaXCarp said:


> Does anyone have experience with this fork for a very light rider, about 110lb or 50kg?
> 
> Would the IRT be a benefit for a rider at this weight? Do you think a custom shim stack tune from Manitou would be beneficial?
> 
> I am building my wife a new bike up but she's 8 mo. pregnant right now so she cant test my mattoc out.


I agree with Mullen119. Started running one on my son's bike when he was about 120 pounds. Worked fine fully open. You could also move a thinner oil in the damper which will help, something like Maxima 2.5 weight. (Standard fill is Maxima 5 weight).


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I find that fully open compression and rebound damping are both very low, so I'd be surprised if 50kg is a problem. And I'm ~70kg when I have my healthier spells - nowhere near 50kg, but certainly not a heavy lad either. It's worth noting that damping is somewhat of a preference thing, so somebody light + also wanting more "lively" rebound MAY find it an issue, whereas I don't mind the suspension coming back a little slower.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

It's been a year since I got my Mattoc, so I thought I'd get it serviced. I'm unsure of the exact hours (Strava is no help here) but about 700kms. I took it to Shockcraft for Dougal to work his magic. The oil looked pretty clean to me, actually the whole fork compared to some of the stuff that I've poured out of forks (old 66 RC's come to mind...).

No test ride yet, hopefully tomorrow. I've been rolling around the block and added a few PSI. Oh so smooth and soft. I should've taken my bloody reverb to him as well. It's been in my LBS for nearly 3 weeks. And I got him to look over the TTX while I was there.












Back in one piece and ready to go (well gravity, my spare seatpost is too short for decent rides)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Wow, that is a some nice equipment to refill the oil! 

Also, nice looking bike!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Notched said:


> It's been a year since I got my Mattoc, so I thought I'd get it serviced. I'm unsure of the exact hours (Strava is no help here) but about 700kms. I took it to Shockcraft for Dougal to work his magic. The oil looked pretty clean to me, actually the whole fork compared to some of the stuff that I've poured out of forks (old 66 RC's come to mind...).
> 
> No test ride yet, hopefully tomorrow. I've been rolling around the block and added a few PSI. Oh so smooth and soft. I should've taken my bloody reverb to him as well. It's been in my LBS for nearly 3 weeks. And I got him to look over the TTX while I was there.
> 
> ...


For those interested, the green oil is the stock Maxima 85-150. It starts out a blue sort of colour and gets more and more green with use. Notched's fork oil was quite heavily foamed, you can see in the beaker as it was poured out.

The vial is a demonstration of vacuum degassing to show how much air is dissolved in oil. The green we had to kill the vacuum and let it settle about 3 times as the foam was getting out of control. A huge amount of air in that oil. So much air that the oil volume had increased by 3-5cc since the fork was new and the damper was now overfilled!

The red is new Motorex 2.5wt oil and it still produces about an equal volume in air bubbles under a very good vacuum. But it was purely dissolved air so the oil volume doesn't change measurably between before and after vacuum degassing.

Moral of the story. If you think it's hard to get full travel and the fork feels like it's firming up on long rides, then check and maybe change your oil.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> For those interested, the green oil is the stock Maxima 85-150. It starts out a blue sort of colour and gets more and more green with use. Notched's fork oil was quite heavily foamed, you can see in the beaker as it was poured out.
> 
> The vial is a demonstration of vacuum degassing to show how much air is dissolved in oil. The green we had to kill the vacuum and let it settle about 3 times as the foam was getting out of control. A huge amount of air in that oil. So much air that the oil volume had increased by 3-5cc since the fork was new and the damper was now overfilled!
> 
> ...


Do you degass all your oil before filling?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Do you degass all your oil before filling?


Not normally in a fork. Usually only for closed dampers (bladder or IFP type) and rear shocks.

I've done it in these forks to see if it'll foam again. I've done it in other forks to try and chase down the source of noise.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Can you please describe your degasser setup? Is this just a big plastic syringe with custom-made aluminium cover? What about those valves? I understand that you are not pouring the oil into fork, but rather let it flow through the tube?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Can you please describe your degasser setup? Is this just a big plastic syringe with custom-made aluminium cover? What about those valves? I understand that you are not pouring the oil into fork, but rather let it flow through the tube?


It's basically a vacuum chamber. The syringe is a convenient way to measure small quantities.


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

If anybody is in the market for a brand new 2014 Mattoc Pro 26 they are a steal from Bikewagon for $299.99 in red or white and shipped free in the US with worldwide for an additional cost but ONLY on eBay. If you go through the Bikewagon website they are $499.99.

White:

Manitou Mattoc Pro 26 034 Suspension Fork 160mm Tapered QR15 White | eBay

Red:

Manitou Mattoc Pro 26 034 Suspension Fork 160mm Tapered QR15 Matte Red | eBay

Quantities seem more limited on the white, a couple days ago they claimed 9 available and now listed as "limited quantity available" so they may have sold some at their brick and mortar stores.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dang! I wish I knew about this last week. I just bought a used white one for $250 (27.5 version), as I felt that was a pretty good deal. Would have gladly paid $50 more for brand new


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

LaXCarp said:


> Dang! I wish I knew about this last week. I just bought a used white one for $250 (27.5 version), as I felt that was a pretty good deal. Would have gladly paid $50 more for brand new


It still sounds like you got a pretty good deal.:thumbsup:


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

I just purchased a 26in Mattoc Pro (Red) from Bikewagon, just arrived this morning! It was this forum that made me make the decision to buy the fork, so much good info.

The fork i have says it was manufactured in October 24 2014, does this mean it is still a 2014 model or 2015?

Came with spacers and a few clips it looks like, and two things oi have no idea what they are. Will open up the package later today, got it on the way to work, so its with me at the office.

I have read alot of posts, here and read alot about the oil. I have access to Lucasoil 5wt fork oil, will that work fine? I will have to pick up some oil to change the travel to 150 anyway, just wondering what is easy to get.

Thanks for all the awesome info on the fork in this forum everyone!


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

nitsuj1891 said:


> two things oi have no idea what they are.


Those are parts of the hydraulic bottom out cone that is used when converting the fork to 27.5 from 26". The longer one is for 27.5 wheels. I would stick with motorex 5w oil.


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## 98srx6 (Jun 25, 2012)

nitsuj1891 said:


> I just purchased a 26in Mattoc Pro (Red) from Bikewagon, just arrived this morning! It was this forum that made me make the decision to buy the fork, so much good info.
> 
> The fork i have says it was manufactured in October 24 2014, does this mean it is still a 2014 model or 2015?
> 
> ...


First thing, I would call Manitou to get a new air piston shipped out to you before changing travel. You want the update air piston, as you already know from this thread.


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

Will this cost me money? I don't really have the cash to fork out for stuff right now. I haven't read the entire thread as of yet, what is wrong with the air piston that is currently in it? Do you have a part number for the piston I could refer to them with?

Thanks again for all the help!


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## 98srx6 (Jun 25, 2012)

nitsuj1891 said:


> Will this cost me money? I don't really have the cash to fork out for stuff right now. I haven't read the entire thread as of yet, what is wrong with the air piston that is currently in it? Do you have a part number for the piston I could refer to them with?
> 
> Thanks again for all the help!


Call Manitou and ask about any updates (including air piston). Their support is top notch.


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

Contacted Manitou, they said that is my box had a green dot on the label it had updated air piston. Checked the box and bingo, has the green dot!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Those are parts of the hydraulic bottom out cone that is used when converting the fork to 27.5 from 26". The longer one is for 27.5 wheels. I would stick with motorex 5w oil.


The correct damper oil is Motorex 2.5wt. The stock blue oil is Maxima 5wt (85-150) which is pretty good too.

They use heavier semi-bath oil in the lowers.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nitsuj1891 said:


> Contacted Manitou, they said that is my box had a green dot on the label it had updated air piston. Checked the box and bingo, has the green dot!


Where on the box is the green dot I should look for?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phreeky said:


> Where on the box is the green dot I should look for?


White sticker on the end with all the fork details.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

nitsuj1891 said:


> I just purchased a 26in Mattoc Pro (Red) from Bikewagon, just arrived this morning! It was this forum that made me make the decision to buy the fork, so much good info.
> 
> The fork i have says it was manufactured in October 24 2014, does this mean it is still a 2014 model or 2015?
> 
> ...


For changing travel, you will only need oil for the lowers (0w-40 or 5w-40 motor oil or Fox Gold) and Slickoleum for the air piston. Manitou has video instructions that are easier to follow.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

nitsuj1891 said:


> I just purchased a 26in Mattoc Pro (Red) from Bikewagon, just arrived this morning!


It's such a sick deal, I just received my white Mattoc today. Happy you got your fork!


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

Cary said:


> For changing travel, you will only need oil for the lowers (0w-40 or 5w-40 motor oil or Fox Gold) and Slickoleum for the air piston.


Any drawbacks to using Fox Gold in the lowers? I have almost a quart of it for my Fox 34 and would prefer to not have to buy another type for the Mattoc unless necessary. Also, any reason why I couldn't sub Slick Honey for Slickoleum? Thanks:thumbsup:


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

gsmith462 said:


> Any drawbacks to using Fox Gold in the lowers? I have almost a quart of it for my Fox 34 and would prefer to not have to buy another type for the Mattoc unless necessary. Also, any reason why I couldn't sub Slick Honey for Slickoleum? Thanks:thumbsup:


Fox gold will work fine and slick honey and slickoleum are the exact same thing, just different names.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

nitsuj1891 said:


> I just purchased a 26in Mattoc Pro (Red) from Bikewagon, just arrived this morning! It was this forum that made me make the decision to buy the fork, so much good info.





gsmith462 said:


> It's such a sick deal, I just received my white Mattoc today. Happy you got your fork!


Welcome lads, such a great fork from an awesome company with exceptional service.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

gsmith462 said:


> Any drawbacks to using Fox Gold in the lowers? I have almost a quart of it for my Fox 34 and would prefer to not have to buy another type for the Mattoc unless necessary. Also, any reason why I couldn't sub Slick Honey for Slickoleum? Thanks:thumbsup:


Yup, I am using some Fox Gold as well. Feels a little sticky when the temps are low (30-40) but feels great when the temps are 70+.


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

I couldn't pass up the deal, I was considering it when they had the price at 399, then it dropped to 349 and I was going to buy it, then it dropped again to 299 and that was the deciding factor. 

It is replacing a 2012 Fox float 120 on my Giant Trance X, got a few more things to purchase, as I had to do a conversion from zero stack headset to an external cup bottom in order to run the 1.5 tapered fork. Also now I need to get a bigger brake rotor for the front of my bike, and drop the travel down to 150. Too much snow to ride for a while anyway, but having that fork here makes me want to get it all done NOW!

Manitou has been incredible on the customer service side of things. I was asking them questions before I bought the fork, and after and they have always replied the same day, which I am amazed by. I haven't ridden the fork yet, but I have owned a few Manitou's back in the day (couple Sherman's, and a Black) and they were good forks. In Canada they are hard to come by currently, but if the fork performs well this summer, I won't hesitate to recommend them to anyone, almost on customer service alone!

I still want to buy the tool kit, and proper oils before I really do much else. Thanks for all the help on here as well. Once I get it installed properly on the bike I will post a picture. Until then I will just have to wait


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The correct damper oil is Motorex 2.5wt. The stock blue oil is Maxima 5wt (85-150) which is pretty good too.
> 
> They use heavier semi-bath oil in the lowers.


Seriously? I recently read through most of this thread and somehow arrived at the conclusion of 5w oil. I even bought some and did a rebuild with it (previously had Spectre 7.5w) last week.

I just bought one for my wife and was going to do a rebuild on it, at 110lbs I am assuming I should go with the 2.5w over the 5w.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LaXCarp said:


> I just bought one for my wife and was going to do a rebuild on it, at 110lbs I am assuming I should go with the 2.5w over the 5w.


I've done that for my wife's Marvel and would bet it would work well in a Mattoc. (Maybe Cary's done that in his son's Mattoc... probably talked about that a year or two ago.)

I know the shim stack is tuneable, but swapping the damper oil was far easier and in my case it did work out perfectly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ColinL said:


> I've done that for my wife's Marvel and would bet it would work well in a Mattoc. (Maybe Cary's done that in his son's Mattoc... probably talked about that a year or two ago.)
> 
> I know the shim stack is tuneable, but swapping the damper oil was far easier and in my case it did work out perfectly.


Changing oil works decent when you want to shift both compression and rebound damping curves a little. If you only want to change one, gotta use shims.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Seriously? I recently read through most of this thread and somehow arrived at the conclusion of 5w oil. I even bought some and did a rebuild with it (previously had Spectre 7.5w) last week.
> 
> I just bought one for my wife and was going to do a rebuild on it, at 110lbs I am assuming I should go with the 2.5w over the 5w.


The oil spec is 15 cSt. Some fork oils this matches 2.5wt (like Motorex) and some it matches 5wt (like Maxima).

Gotta check the specs.

I put 22 cSt 5wt in my old Mattoc once. Felt dead.


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

Kiwiplague said:


> Fox gold will work fine and slick honey and slickoleum are the exact same thing, just different names.


Perfect, thank you!


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> Yup, I am using some Fox Gold as well. Feels a little sticky when the temps are low (30-40) but feels great when the temps are 70+.


I never ride in temps that low so Fox gold it is:thumbsup:


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

I ordered an IRT kit that should come in this week. Where do you think is a good starting point for set up? My current set up:

160mm
PSI: 53
Rider weight: 155lbs
All compression settings at full open
HBO 1 click in

Bike is a Knolly Warden C and I ride aggressively on technical trails of Pisgah/Asheville NC. I am wondering if it is now more plush initially am I going to have a hard time when I bump jump and pump the front end to catch air?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> I ordered an IRT kit that should come in this week. Where do you think is a good starting point for set up? My current set up:
> 
> 160mm
> PSI: 53
> ...


On my Turner, I was running 50/90 (at 160mm) with rebound 3 from fully open, and all other clickers to minimum. Gave a very nice ride. You might be able to go to something like 40/80.


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

Got the fork mounted up today, still want to run it at 150mm before I really ride it, but looks awesome and parking lot test it feels pretty good. 

Manitou customer service has been awesome so far, exchanged emails with them and they respond very quickly!


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dougal said:


> The oil spec is 15 cSt. Some fork oils this matches 2.5wt (like Motorex) and some it matches 5wt (like Maxima).
> 
> Gotta check the specs.
> 
> I put 22 cSt 5wt in my old Mattoc once. Felt dead.


Thanks for the clarification. I replaced the 5w with Motorex 2.5w


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## nitsuj1891 (Mar 6, 2008)

*fork mounted!*

Just had to throw this picture on here, loving the look of the fork, can't wait to ride it. I want to drop it down to 150mm before the season starts, we will see if i need to drop to 140 for a better feel, but i hope not!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> On my Turner, I was running 50/90 (at 160mm) with rebound 3 from fully open, and all other clickers to minimum. Gave a very nice ride. You might be able to go to something like 40/80.


For my son (170 pounds, aggressive rider), we are at 53/95 psi on a digital gauge, rebound 3 clicks from open, one click high speed, two of low speed, and one of hbo.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Cary said:


> For my son (170 pounds, aggressive rider), we are at 53/95 psi on a digital gauge, rebound 3 clicks from open, one click high speed, two of low speed, and one of hbo.


Thanks for the starting points guys. My first ride with it I went 40/75. Felt a little too soft of the top and slightly too linear so I have bumped to 42/80. I'll keep fiddling with it but I can tell it is going to be a nice improvement to the fork. I also just rebuilt with 2.5w (instead of 5w) and put some fox gold in the lowers...so this thing is running as fine as it ever has, I often sneak down into my shop and do a few pushes on the bars.

I'm debating on installing one on my wifes mattoc. Hers is set at 140 and I think the smaller air chamber increases the progression of the fork. I am wondering if I can tune that out a bit with the IRT.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> Thanks for the starting points guys. My first ride with it I went 40/75. Felt a little too soft of the top and slightly too linear so I have bumped to 42/80. I'll keep fiddling with it but I can tell it is going to be a nice improvement to the fork. I also just rebuilt with 2.5w (instead of 5w) and put some fox gold in the lowers...so this thing is running as fine as it ever has, I often sneak down into my shop and do a few pushes on the bars.
> 
> I'm debating on installing one on my wifes mattoc. Hers is set at 140 and I think the smaller air chamber increases the progression of the fork. I am wondering if I can tune that out a bit with the IRT.


I actually run my fork now at 140 and the IRT works well but took some time to really dial in. I am running something like 55/80 at the 140 setting. I use 1 click of HSC and LCS and HBO.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Where can you get a black mattoc with black sanctions?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

nashwillis said:


> Where can you get a black mattoc with black sanctions?


Mostly appear to be OEM models, so are going to be hard to source aftermarket unless a retailer (someone like Chainreaction) has got hold of a few.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm looking at 160mm 26" pro model, very nice deal. 

Anyone know the width measurement @ the inner arch bulge there (roughly)...or height measurement from top of axle to arch?? Trying to get an idea for rim width / tire height clearance. Smaller side knobs will be used w/ the wider 559 rimz installed. TIA


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

J: said:


> I'm looking at 160mm 26" pro model, very nice deal.
> 
> Anyone know the width measurement @ the inner arch bulge there (roughly)...or height measurement from top of axle to arch?? Trying to get an idea for rim width / tire height clearance. Smaller side knobs will be used w/ the wider 559 rimz installed. TIA


You van easily fit a proper 2.6 inch tire as a 2.8 with qm aller knobs also fits, but only close. Thus proper usual 2.4 and 2.5 rubbers will fit with no problems


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## Goinslo (Sep 30, 2009)

I've just spent some time reading through the 46 pages on the Mattoc after picking up a Mattoc Pro. I installed the IRT upgrade but I didn't have semi bath or supergliss for the lower lube so I used Magura suspensionblood type 5 so I can pedal around on the street. (snow is keeping the trail riding at bay for now). I couldn't find much info on the specs for the Magura T5 oil, does anyone have any info on it and is it ok to use for the lowers. If not recommended I will pick up some Motorex semi bath or Maxima 5WT as supergliss is not easily sourced in the US. As far as damping oil I'm in flux about which weight Motorex to pick up 2.5 or 5 . I was leaning toward 2.5 after reading this Mattoc thread but after reading a few other post on other sites and watching a few service videos that show Motorex 5w being used I not 100% sure what should be used. I weigh 195 geared up. What are your thoughts or experience?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Goinslo said:


> I've just spent some time reading through the 46 pages on the Mattoc after picking up a Mattoc Pro. I installed the IRT upgrade but I didn't have semi bath or supergliss for the lower lube so I used Magura suspensionblood type 5 so I can pedal around on the street. (snow is keeping the trail riding at bay for now). I couldn't find much info on the specs for the Magura T5 oil, does anyone have any info on it and is it ok to use for the lowers. If not recommended I will pick up some Motorex semi bath or Maxima 5WT as supergliss is not easily sourced in the US. As far as damping oil I'm in flux about which weight Motorex to pick up 2.5 or 5 . I was leaning toward 2.5 after reading this Mattoc thread but after reading a few other post on other sites and watching a few service videos that show Motorex 5w being used I not 100% sure what should be used. I weigh 195 geared up. What are your thoughts or experience?


The type 5 is for lowers, so should be just fine. Current preferences for fluids in these with stuff available in the US is Fox Gold for the lowers, Maxima 5w fork oil (the plush if you are feeling fancy), and Slickoleum for the grease.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

They're 26" trials rims 48mm outside width...will 26" Mattoc lowers have enough clearance (looking @ either expert or pro)?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

J: said:


> They're 26" trials rims 48mm wide...will 26" Mattoc lowers have enough clearance (looking @ either expert or pro)?


I think all Mattocs, inc 26" and 27.5", have the same lowers. Mattoc manual lists max tyre at 27.5 and 68mm wide IIRC, although generally speaking a 27.5x2.8 will be a bit too tall. A 27.5x2.6 fits fine on 29mm IW rim which may be useful to you, otherwise I could measure actual clearance if you'd like.

The size limit for me is within the arch, not the bulge below the arch. 26" may make it a factor however.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Thx*



phreeky said:


> I think all Mattocs, inc 26" and 27.5", have the same lowers. Mattoc manual lists max tyre at 27.5 and 68mm wide IIRC, although generally speaking a 27.5x2.8 will be a bit too tall. A 27.5x2.6 fits fine on 29mm IW rim which may be useful to you, otherwise I could measure actual clearance if you'd like.
> 
> The size limit for me is within the arch, not the bulge below the arch. 26" may make it a factor however.


Interesting profile on the lowers...26" rim has the bead seat a half inch lower (and sidewall even lower) than the 27.5"...when you installed that 2.8" rubber in the fork, did the tire catch @ that bulge in the lowers and need to be pushed through?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Sorry it was somebody else that tried a Nobby Nic 27.5x2.8 in there - IIRC it cleared, however only just and was a bit risky (you'll find the discussion in this thread). It was the tread area that was close though.

I'm running a Nobby Nic 27.5x2.6 in my Mattoc with a Mudguard and enough room for smaller rocks caught in the tread to pass through OK, bigger ones would flick off the guard. The Nobby Nic doesn't catch too many rocks though. The sidewalls have a fair bit of clearance.









As you can see, clearance would be quite large without the mudguard. 26x2.8 would probably work, most don't actually measure out to 2.8" anyway.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Just read through this entire thread after purchasing a mattoc expert from bikewagon. Had felt boom kings mattoc in the flesh and it felt amazing compared to my pike. Am building up a hard tail so pounced on the deal cause the bikewagon price was hard to beat. Looking like manitou usa will hook me up with a updated rebound assembly and piston seal head too (if required) which is ace. Planning on changing the travel to 27.5 so will update everything when the fork is in pieces. If i get a 27.5 rebound assembly i should only need to place a spacer at the bottom of the air spring leg and i will be good to go for 27.5. I was worried that i wouldn't receive the parts for the conversion in the box but it sounds like others with the pro model scored the bags of bits plus from what boom king told me the updated rebound will do the trick if i request 27.5. Already super pumped about this fork after reading this thread. Thinking about grabbing another and selling the pike off my dually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

My Expert, which was around the same build date as yours, came with all the necessary bits for setting up as 26 or 27.5


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## equinox (Oct 31, 2007)

So new Mattoc owner here, I want to reduce the travel down to 140mm. I have the spacers and I presume I need to buy some oil and lube for the work?

Sorry for the daft question but I am very new to suspension fiddling!


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

equinox said:


> So new Mattoc owner here, I want to reduce the travel down to 140mm. I have the spacers and I presume I need to buy some oil and lube for the work?
> 
> Sorry for the daft question but I am very new to suspension fiddling!


You'll need some oil for your lowers (5w synthetic motor oil will work) and some grease for the air piston assembly (slick honey). You'll also want to make sure you have the correct tooling to disassemble which should just be a deep walled cassette tool.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Double post, sorry.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

equinox said:


> So new Mattoc owner here, I want to reduce the travel down to 140mm. I have the spacers and I presume I need to buy some oil and lube for the work?
> 
> Sorry for the daft question but I am very new to suspension fiddling!


Supergliss is the best for your lowers but hard to get. Next best is Fox Gold. A thin walled, deep 8mm socket is the easiest to remove the lowers but it can be done with a 4mm hex key.

Read through this thread, I think scar4me has some tips on lower removal with a hex key.


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

Boom King said:


> Welcome lads, such a great fork from an awesome company with exceptional service.


Thank you, and thank all who contributed to this thread for the great info on this fantastic fork, it's very much appreciated:thumbsup:


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

LaXCarp said:


> You'll need some oil for your lowers (5w synthetic motor oil will work) and some grease for the air piston assembly (slick honey). You'll also want to make sure you have the correct tooling to disassemble which should just be a deep walled cassette tool.


5w is a winter weight motor oil that is never seen. The lowers call for a 40 weight engine oil, whether a 10w-40, 5w-40, or 0w-40. I find redline works well, but fox gold has better lubricity as it is specifically designed for a sliding surface.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Has someone ridden a proper set up Mattoc Pro WITH IRT Vs dvo diamond and can give some info how both compare? Except weight and stiffness ;-) i know both have good dampers and service partners, but I' d like to know how they compare in midstroke support, sensitivity and composure in rough stuff, as the mattoc with IRT is a complete different beast than the single air version. Looking for a fork for my second bike ans am willing to try something new as I already own a mattoc irt in the other bike. 
Cheers


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

phreeky said:


> Sorry it was somebody else that tried a Nobby Nic 27.5x2.8 in there - IIRC it cleared, however only just and was a bit risky (you'll find the discussion in this thread). It was the tread area that was close though.
> 
> I'm running a Nobby Nic 27.5x2.6 in my Mattoc with a Mudguard and enough room for smaller rocks caught in the tread to pass through OK, bigger ones would flick off the guard. The Nobby Nic doesn't catch too many rocks though. The sidewalls have a fair bit of clearance.
> 
> ...


Phreeky, what pressure do you run with the schwalbe 2.6's (and for what weight) ?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Keeping in mind accuracy between guages and all...

20psi in the front and I've had no issues, and I could probably go a bit lower however I don't like the tyre flexing around too much as it can feel vague.

I've been running 25psi in the rear (Rocket Ron 2.6), to prevent tyre roll (it's on a 25mm rim).

I am about 72kg (+camelbak etc).

The difference in feel between these tyres and the Maxxis 2.3s I used to run is huge, it's like a different bike.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Thank you!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> I actually run my fork now at 140 and the IRT works well but took some time to really dial in. I am running something like 55/80 at the 140 setting. I use 1 click of HSC and LCS and HBO.


Hey LaXCarp,

Just rechecked all my setting this weekend and realized that what I said here was wrong. Those were my settings for the 160 setting. Right now, at 140, I am running 80 PSI main, 110 IRT with 2 clicks of LSC, HSC, HBO and rebound is set 3 clicks from full open. This is for my 205 lbs.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Thanks for the input. My fork is set at 160mm. My wife has her at 140 with no IRT. I am getting my fork to feel pretty dialed now.

I am at 42psi main and 85psi IRT and it is feeling very good. I run all other settings wide open and 4 clicks of rebound. I got a Knolly Warden C last fall and I have had a hard time feeling comfortable on it. This is due to many factors I assume but one is that I am running a Float X2 shock vs a CCDBA now. The float X2 has better midstroke support and rides higher than the CCDBA. I believe this was creating an unbalanced bike with the Mattoc upfront lacking midstroke support w/ no IRT (where it used to be pair well with the CCDBA).

I went for a 12mi ride yesterday that had 2800' of elevation gain with 3 awesome descents and it was the first ride where I actually felt comfortable and was doing whatever I wanted with my bike. I attribute this to my fork riding higher and having a more progressive stroke but still feeling nice and supple. When I pumped and preloaded the bike I could feel the shock and fork reacting identically and the bike came to life. I am stoked.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

^^ Sounds good, have not seen the new fangled warden c in the wild yet...what's IRT and why did you need it?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

J: said:


> what's IRT and why did you need it?


Its an air chamber that installs in place of the air cap that can be used to independently control mid stroke support/end stroke ramp. I felt the mattoc was too linear for my needs and I don't like using compression dials.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

My experience with the IRT is that I was able to drop my primary air chamber pressure by several PSI which made the initial travel softer, and yet give it more midstroke support.

To me I would actually say it is more linear. A single chamber air spring is progressive by nature.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

J: said:


> ^^ Sounds good, have not seen the new fangled warden c in the wild yet...what's IRT and why did you need it?


As people have mentioned, it is a second positive air chamber you can add to alter the spring rate. You can alter it to do nothing or to give a very progressive ride.

I am now running the mattoc at 140 and the IRT helps getting a ride that is plush throughout its stroke but still had great bottom-out and mid-stroke.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

ColinL said:


> To me I would actually say it is more linear. A single chamber air spring is progressive by nature.


Well the beauty of the "infinite rate tune" is you can change the air pressure to be more linear or progressive based on your preference. The larger the difference in pressure between the main and IRT chamber results in more progressivity, the smaller the more linear.

The mattoc isn't a single air chamber spring; before the IRT there is a negative and a positive chamber, the IRT creates a third air chamber. The progressivity of any single air chamber is determined by its volume.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

Been Lurking for a while.

I have an OEM Mattoc from a vitus sommet.

Thought id chip in with my experience.

Basically i only ever seemed to get 130/40mm travel max out of the 160. I cant tell if this was as the colder weather came in, as i bought bike in sept and ireland weather is changeable by the day

Then my damper rod snapped (long story), so there was some warranty repair involved. Which i ended up paying for due to having opened the fork to see what was wrong.

Came back from workshop with new oil damper. Again, only using 130-140mm travel max.

I opened air piston and did the poppet valve modification. First time i did it, i did too much and the negative chamber got more air and i lost loads of travel from the fork. Redid it and put it back to where it was but not as far out. When putting the air piston back together, not having or even ever heard of slickoleum or slick honey let alone owning it (havent seen it for sale anywhere), i used general m-prep style grease on the piston o rings.

This seemingly helped, but weeks later im still only using 140-45mm travel or so.

rider weight = 96kg

So i dropped my psi from 75psi on my analogue guage to 50 psi, but im still maintaining 30-40% sag!. Now im using about 152mm travel. Slightly confused....

I feel happier. I imagine i will use that last lump on big hits. it does feel a bit more small bump compliant too which is good. yet to try this out on trail yet as its very wet, but should find out a bit more by the weekend.


Either my pump is rubbish readout, or when they rebuilt the oil damper in warranty they used wrong oil height. Hopefully have this fork setup properly now or soon as it has such good potential.

i used to run a 150mm travis coil spring and loved it apart form the weight.

Might have to revisit the poppet height. I dont have an IRT air cartridge. Worth getting?


EDIT: The point being, that im seemingly running a very low pressure fro my weight. SAG looks ok, cant tell about brake dive or stroke support until i trail ride it yet.


It seems to stiffen up as a ride goes on sometimes.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

adamxrt said:


> Been Lurking for a while.
> 
> I have an OEM Mattoc from a vitus sommet.
> 
> ...


This fork really needs the good lube to make it work well.(air piston and lowers seals)
Silkoleum or slick honey is good.
I'm using some custom PTFE grease.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

So to determine if the not using all of travel is due to oil height or the negative air spring, one must deflate the air spring and stand on the bike in attack mode. If the fork depresses the full height, its the air spring. If it hits a hard stop somewhere its the oil?

On the other hand, what is the UK equivalent of this slick honey stuff? ive honestly not heard of it before, but i wouldn't be the most clued up on my automotive greases. 

i get M-Prep grease from work for free so its used on pretty much everythin gon my bike.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Slickoleum is another name for slick honey. 
As for the travel, even with no air in the fork it can be tricky to get the last 10-15mm of travel due to a combination of the HBO circuit and the fairly stiff bottom out bumper. As long as you can get 150mm or so under normal riding conditions I wouldn't worry too much about it. Like they say, its the quality of the fork travel, not how much of it there is.
In saying that though, it may be worth checking the damper oil level, just make sure its not slightly over filled.


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

adamxrt said:


> what is the UK equivalent of this slick honey stuff?.


Not sure about a UK specific equivalent to Slick Honey but both Slickoleum and Slick Honey can be shipped worldwide.

Order Slickoleum Grease

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pr...ney-tube-2oz?gclid=CJe-6_ayttICFUo7gQod4Q8E3w

The official Manitou Mattoc service video says they use M-Prep but they added a highlight to the video saying that they have updated to using Slickoleum which is very much similar to Slick Honey from what I was told here. I had used Slick Honey for my Fox fork so I already have that and will use it for my Mattoc...weird side note, I love the smell of Slick Honey lol, smells like really high quality grease.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gsmith462 said:


> Not sure about a UK specific equivalent to Slick Honey but both Slickoleum and Slick Honey can be shipped worldwide.
> 
> Order Slickoleum Grease
> 
> ...


Slickoleum and slick honey are the exact same thing. Slick honey is just rebranded and usually more expensive. Prep m was replaced because it would move away from needed areas faster than other greases (thinner at high temps)


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Slickoleum is easily available under the name of "SRAM Butter": https://www.hawaii.ee/image/cache/data/tooted/SRAM/00.4318.008.001-800x600.jpg


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## gsmith462 (Feb 14, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> Slickoleum and slick honey are the exact same thing. Slick honey is just rebranded and usually more expensive. Prep m was replaced because it would move away from needed areas faster than other greases (thinner at high temps)


Something about that just doesn't seem right that a guy can sell the same product under two different names and charge different prices. Wish I would have known that before shelling out the money for my tube of honey last year.

Just goes to show that Manitou really is great on customer service. They tell customers to get the cheaper Slickoleum where as Fox recommends the use of the more expensive Slick Honey, just like they charge through the arse for suspension service.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gsmith462 said:


> Something about that just doesn't seem right that a guy can sell the same product under two different names and charge different prices. Wish I would have known that before shelling out the money for my tube of honey last year.
> 
> Just goes to show that Manitou really is great on customer service. They tell customers to get the cheaper Slickoleum where as Fox recommends the use of the more expensive Slick Honey just like they charge through the arse for suspension service.


It's not right, but happens all the time. Rock Shox branded oil is just rebranded Torco RFF oils, same with Fox oils. They slap a different sticker on and and charge 40% more


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> It's not right, but happens all the time. Rock Shox branded oil is just rebranded Torco RFF oils, same with Fox oils. They slap a different sticker on and and charge 40% more


I would say it would be to do with distributor agreements worldwide etc. For a long time in New Zealand if you were the Approved Distributor of say Rockshox, you were the only one who could bring them in and sell them. It's been disrupted the last few years by ebay/amazon, ecommerce in general.

Not Mattoc related as mine have been flawless, first service courtesy of Shockcraft, but my Reverb died. Mine has been really reliable. But I've worn the piston shaft and it needed to be replaced. It went to Sram's official distributor in NZ twice, then back to the shop, where the mechanic called me (after 6 weeks) and said, we can't get this part, no 1234 etc, if you can 'obtain' it, we'll install it. So long story short, the official distributor doesn't have it, so *I* ordered the part from a site in Germany. Hopefully going in today...


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

gsmith462 said:


> Something about that just doesn't seem right that a guy can sell the same product under two different names and charge different prices. Wish I would have known that before shelling out the money for my tube of honey last year.
> 
> Just goes to show that Manitou really is great on customer service. They tell customers to get the cheaper Slickoleum where as Fox recommends the use of the more expensive Slick Honey, just like they charge through the arse for suspension service.


In my area, Southern California, Slickoleum, Sram Butter and Slick Honey are all about $9 per Oz. But the 10oz tub of Slickoleum shipped direct is a damn steal at $22.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> It's not right, but happens all the time. Rock Shox branded oil is just rebranded Torco RFF oils, same with Fox oils. They slap a different sticker on and and charge 40% more


do you happen to know which brand makes Fox Gold 20wt?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Just thought I'd post a big shout out to Christian @ Manitou Support Europe!
They've just sorted me out massively.
The UK importer couldn't get the air spring parts for my mattoc, and couldn't give me any time frames if I did put an order in with them.

Christian @ Manitou Europe answered my emails quickly, and couldn't have been more helpful.
Just had a parcel turn up @ home today with the parts!

I will also add that they were in no way obliged to help as my Mattoc's are way way out of warranty now. (~3yrs old)

This is exactly what wins and keeps customers supporting products.
Customer service over marketing blurb everytime!


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Just wondering if anybody has done a wheel size conversion without using the mattoc fork clamp lock tool? I don't have the tool and want to convert my new fork to 27.5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

thedrizzle said:


> Just wondering if anybody has done a wheel size conversion without using the mattoc fork clamp lock tool? I don't have the tool and want to convert my new fork to 27.5
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's an easy job.
4mm allen key down the air valve to undo the air spring. (instead of the 8mm thinwall socket)
and 8mm allen key for the camper side.

Then take out the damper oil, and swap the top HBO part on the rebound damper.
To remove the damper you can use a cassette tool with a large hole in the middle by compressing it all the way in. (you don't need the manitou slotted cassette tool)

Then make sure there is the 10mm spacer under the bottomout bumper on each side when you put it back together.
Here is the picture of travel configurations of the spacers.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Cheers for the quick response. On the video they use this tool.










Already have the mattoc tool kit on hand for the conversion.

I am assuming that nobody would purchase this for a once off conversion.

What are people using instead? Wrapping a towel around the damper and clamping in a vice? Soft jawed vice? Creating the tool from timber?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

thedrizzle said:


> Cheers for the quick response. On the video they use this tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can wrap an old tube around it, and hold that and twist.
(Wrap it so it tightens as you twist to undo)
That normally gets enough purchase if you've cleaned it first.
Otherwise look into golf handle vice jaws. They are cheap rubber vice jaws.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

scar4me said:


> You can wrap an old tube around it, and hold that and twist.
> That normally gets enough purchase if you've cleaned it first.
> Otherwise look into golf handle vice jaws. They are cheap rubber vice jaws.


You bloody legend! The tube is an excellent idea.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

So i did the 27.5" conversion today. Changed the rod on the rebound assembly and added a travel spacer on bottom of the air spring side. I have a 26" mattoc expert with an upgraded piston seal head and rebound assembly (had the green dot on the box and 11 clicks of rebound). I have a couple of questions for anybody who has done the conversion.

Is it safe to use the travel spacers rather than the bottom spacers? I only received travel spacers in my box and well as the two rods.

On the expert the diagram shows a spacer on the bottom of the rebound assembly also. I was unable to fit a travel spacer there as the shaft had a thicker diameter. Is a spacer required on both sides for the expert? Or a people running one only on the air spring side without issue?

Cheers


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

thedrizzle said:


> On the expert the diagram shows a spacer on the bottom of the rebound assembly also. I was unable to fit a travel spacer there as the shaft had a thicker diameter. Is a spacer required on both sides for the expert? Or a people running one only on the air spring side without issue?
> 
> Cheers


The bottom out spacer isn't critical on the damper side, as long as you're running the bottomout spacer on The air spring side. HBO slows the last part of travel, so the bumpers arent taking fast impacts.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thedrizzle said:


> So i did the 27.5" conversion today. Changed the rod on the rebound assembly and added a travel spacer on bottom of the air spring side. I have a 26" mattoc expert with an upgraded piston seal head and rebound assembly (had the green dot on the box and 11 clicks of rebound). I have a couple of questions for anybody who has done the conversion.
> 
> Is it safe to use the travel spacers rather than the bottom spacers? I only received travel spacers in my box and well as the two rods.
> 
> ...


The bottom spacer is a travel spacer. They're all the same. Air side is the one which has top-out and bottom-out bumpers. Damper side has HBO.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> The bottom spacer is a travel spacer. They're all the same. Air side is the one which has top-out and bottom-out bumpers. Damper side has HBO.


The fork in question is an Expert. My understanding is that it requires a bottom spacer on the rebound assembly when used as 27.5. That spacer has a different cross section to a travel spacer and also has a larger ID.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> The fork in question is an Expert. My understanding is that it requires a bottom spacer on the rebound assembly when used as 27.5. That spacer has a different cross section to a travel spacer and also has a larger ID.


My expert is 27.5 and there is no spacer on the damper side. No need for it


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

For open bath / Expert damper users, or anyone that has compared fork oils, what have you tried/found that reduces stiction the most for the damper leg sliding bits (bush, seals, rings etc)?

Normally I blend Redline, but VI seems almost 2x higher than Maxima 5, Spectro 85/150, Motorex 2.5 (their [email protected] 150 iirc). Usually pay closer attention to VI when matching the #s for shocks...anyone else use redline?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> For open bath / Expert damper users, or anyone that has compared fork oils, what have you tried/found that reduces stiction the most for the damper leg sliding bits (bush, seals, rings etc)?
> 
> Normally I blend Redline, but VI seems almost 2x higher than Maxima 5, Spectro 85/150, Motorex 2.5 (their [email protected] 150 iirc). Usually pay closer attention to VI when matching the #s for shocks...anyone else use redline?


The only open bath Manitou has is one leg of the current Dorado. I use Motorex, it's the most slippery oil I've found. VI on Motorex 2.5 is somewhere north of 250 these days. Previous formulations were around 200.

Even on rides where my rear shock is getting too hot to touch I can't feel any significant heat in the damper stanchion. Clearly the crown etc are very good at sinking away heat and cooling.

But stiction in the damper isn't a problem. For lower leg bushings Supergliss is the best I've found in the warm (above freezing). It gets too thick in the cold and slows the fork down. Manitou Semi-Bath is the best all-rounder but isn't currently available at retail level.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The only open bath Manitou has is one leg of the current Dorado. I use Motorex, it's the most slippery oil I've found. VI on Motorex 2.5 is somewhere north of 250 these days. Previous formulations were around 200.
> 
> Even on rides where my rear shock is getting too hot to touch I can't feel any significant heat in the damper stanchion. Clearly the crown etc are very good at sinking away heat and cooling.
> 
> But stiction in the damper isn't a problem. For lower leg bushings Supergliss is the best I've found in the warm (above freezing). It gets too thick in the cold and slows the fork down. Manitou Semi-Bath is the best all-rounder but isn't currently available at retail level.


Ah, thanks...for some reason I thought the difference between Mattocs was that the pro was the sealed damper while expert was the open damper...remembering Dorado etched on the knob, must be on the air spring top cap instead:thumbsup:


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I heard back from manitou tech support who confirmed that the bottom spacer is only required on the air spring side. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I tried to change the travel on Magnum 27.5+ 120mm by following the Mattoc travel change guide at https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV5.pdf

On page 8 step 7 asks to push the compression rod all the way in. But on my fork there seems to be hard stop. About 15mm of the compression rod will be visible and the Park Tool FR5 tool will not engage the splines. Is this specific to Magnum?

I will try to cut the slot into the cassette tool, I hope the steel is not too strong. But this is not ideal solution because I cannot use the torque wrench.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Use a crows foot with the torque wrench. It will alter the torque a bit, so it depends how precise you want it, however you can calculate it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> I tried to change the travel on Magnum 27.5+ 120mm by following the Mattoc travel change guide at https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Mattoc-Travel-Adjust-Guide-REV5.pdf
> 
> On page 8 step 7 asks to push the compression rod all the way in. But on my fork there seems to be hard stop. About 15mm of the compression rod will be visible and the Park Tool FR5 tool will not engage the splines. Is this specific to Magnum?
> 
> I will try to cut the slot into the cassette tool, I hope the steel is not too strong. But this is not ideal solution because I cannot use the torque wrench.


Magnum has longer shafts. Might need to take out the air-cap and attached spacers to get that much compression.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Magnum has longer shafts. Might need to take out the air-cap and attached spacers to get that much compression.


I took the aircap out, but it didn't help. Looks like the inner diameter if the upper part of the stanchion is smaller.

Yes, I need crow-foot. I cannot find them locally, must find some good European webshop.

Btw, is it correct that Magnum takes 15cc of oil in legs?


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

I've been on my Mattoc for about 20 hours so far. Before buying i read about 60% of this thread and went for it.

I have one question: Is anyone else having problems with axle coming loose.....?.....i have the new axle that uses the 6mm wrench. 

My axle is coming loose 2-3 times a ride. Sometimes when i've just done alot of climbing.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Just bought another one from bikewagon to replace some older 36's i had on another bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cant Climb said:


> I've been on my Mattoc for about 20 hours so far. Before buying i read about 60% of this thread and went for it.
> 
> I have one question: Is anyone else having problems with axle coming loose.....?.....i have the new axle that uses the 6mm wrench.
> 
> My axle is coming loose 2-3 times a ride. Sometimes when i've just done alot of climbing.


No issues for me. How tight are you running it?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

arnea said:


> I will try to cut the slot into the cassette tool, I hope the steel is not too strong. But this is not ideal solution because I cannot use the torque wrench.


About 10 minute work with diamond cutting wheel:


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## WMBigs (Jul 11, 2009)

arnea said:


> About 10 minute work with diamond cutting wheel:


How does this work for you? I tried the same thing, worked for one fork side, the other side it just slipped and would not grip. The two sides seemed a little bit different in size. This was on a Magnum fork. The slot was just wide enough to slip over the thicker of the rods.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

It worked without problems on the air spring side. I did not open the damper side, as this was brand new fork and I only wanted to increase the travel.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

IRT ordered and en route. Also getting some super slick grease from our good friend scar4me which should be here soon too! hopefully have IRT installed before this weekend for a ride.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Is it normal that there is a gap between IRT cap and crown? I torqued the cap according to spec and it did not go any further. This is 120mm 27.5+ Magnum.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

arnea said:


> Is it normal that there is a gap between IRT cap and crown? I torqued the cap according to spec and it did not go any further. This is 120mm 27.5+ Magnum.


I don't have that gap on my mattoc


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I did some searching and found two different IVA assemblies:

This is a picture from Magnum press-release:

https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb12127826/p5pb12127826.jpg

This is picture from "Manitou Mattoc Expert/Pro Upgrade Kits" product page:

https://www.universalcycles.com/images//products/medium/77749.jpg

Notice the o-ring position. On the first picture it is much closer to the top of the cap.

I was assuming that Magnum and Mattoc share much of the parts, but looks like there are subtle differences.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> No issues for me. How tight are you running it?


I tighten it pretty good. Didn't have an issue until my last 3 rides. When i say gets loose i'm saying like 1/4 of turn. Enough for slight wobble, where it would feel like worn out bearings in my hub. But after happening 3 rides in a row i'm getting concerned.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I figured out my mistake. When I inserted the IRT the floating piston did not go past the threads and the cap binded. Now I added some air when it happened and this forced the floating piston to go down. It was then easy to screw in the cap.

The caps are in fact identical:










It is interesting to see that Manitou has reduced the maximum air camber size using plastic spacer on IVA.

IVA is 100mm long and IRT 132mm. I confirmed that even at max compression the piston is not touching the IRT shaft.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

*Mattoc/Magnum and Shockwiz*

Shockwiz says that it is not compatible with Mattoc/Magnum Pro because there is no valve on the positive air side and the valve at the bottom will open the bypass in the piston.

While investigating my "Magnum with IRT" case I found out that Manitou is making IVA caps for Mattoc Comp as well. Mattoc Comp is using ordinary ISO air spring with independent valve for positive air and should therefore be compatible with Shockwiz.

But what if you take the Mattoc Comp IVA cap and put it on the Pro? I think that this would make the Pro compatible with Shockwiz as well. You can attach the Shockwiz to the top cap valve.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

arnea said:


> Shockwiz says that it is not compatible with Mattoc/Magnum Pro because there is no valve on the positive air side and the valve at the bottom will open the bypass in the piston.
> 
> While investigating my "Magnum with IRT" case I found out that Manitou is making IVA caps for Mattoc Comp as well. Mattoc Comp is using ordinary ISO air spring with independent valve for positive air and should therefore be compatible with Shockwiz.
> 
> But what if you take the Mattoc Comp IVA cap and put it on the Pro? I think that this would make the Pro compatible with Shockwiz as well. You can attach the Shockwiz to the top cap valve.


I'd expect so.
But wouldn't want to say for sure if there were any wall thickness differences in the uppers.

I'm sure it was dougal that mentioned you could make the mattoc dual air ages ago. The shockwiz would work as long as the chambers were separate when the valve was attached.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

scar4me said:


> I'm sure it was dougal that mentioned you could make the mattoc dual air ages ago. The shockwiz would work as long as the chambers were separate when the valve was attached.


I thought about this too. Actually stock Mattoc/Magnum Pro are already "1.5 Air"  If you would like to have more negative pressure than positive pressure then you can just compress the fork little bit before you disconnect the pump hose. It will increase the negative camber size at the equal pressure point, which is what Dual Air with higher negative air pressure effectively did. If you wanted to have higher positive pressure then this doesn't obviously work.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

arnea said:


> I thought about this too. Actually stock Mattoc/Magnum Pro are already "1.5 Air"  If you would like to have more negative pressure than positive pressure then you can just compress the fork little bit before you disconnect the pump hose. It will increase the negative camber size at the equal pressure point, which is what Dual Air with higher negative air pressure effectively did. If you wanted to have higher positive pressure then this doesn't obviously work.


You obviously have missed the people who've turned the Mattoc's air valve into the equivalent of the old Nixon IT(infinite travel adjust).
I tried one on mine.
Made it out of an old shock pumps valve head, and allowed travel adjust out on the trail.
Only problem is that it won't auto extend due to having only the damper back pressure, so it's a stopped only travel change.

I'd give this a try from CRC:
Manitou Magnum Air Cap 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles
only £15, and free returns if it looks like it won't fit


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

arnea said:


> Shockwiz says that it is not compatible with Mattoc/Magnum Pro because there is no valve on the positive air side and the valve at the bottom will open the bypass in the piston.
> 
> While investigating my "Magnum with IRT" case I found out that Manitou is making IVA caps for Mattoc Comp as well. Mattoc Comp is using ordinary ISO air spring with independent valve for positive air and should therefore be compatible with Shockwiz.
> 
> But what if you take the Mattoc Comp IVA cap and put it on the Pro? I think that this would make the Pro compatible with Shockwiz as well. You can attach the Shockwiz to the top cap valve.


There are quite a few mattoc comps running the dorado air system now, and that is going to become permanent in the newest generation. Same goes for the magnum. The older version with iso air should be compatible.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

scar4me said:


> You obviously have missed the people who've turned the Mattoc's air valve into the equivalent of the old Nixon IT(infinite travel adjust).
> I tried one on mine.
> Made it out of an old shock pumps valve head, and allowed travel adjust out on the trail.
> Only problem is that it won't auto extend due to having only the damper back pressure, so it's a stopped only travel change.


I noticed those. There was also a guy in Germany who manufactured them as well. But I did not realize that reducing travel this way is equivalent to increasing the negative air pressure in Dual Air system. Now it seems something I might want. Not for reducing the travel, but for making the fork more supple.



scar4me said:


> I'd give this a try from CRC:
> Manitou Magnum Air Cap 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles
> only £15, and free returns if it looks like it won't fit


There is also IVA kit for Comp: https://www.bike-components.de/en/Manitou/IVA-Kit-fuer-Mattoc-Comp-p47317/

I think the picture is generic, real thing should have air valve.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

Just got my IRT. I noticed Someone complained about it just having an air valve sticking out liable to get covered in mud etc. Mine came with a little air valve cap which looks cool. The shaft that the IRT piston sits on is also definitely metal, i recall someone in here saying. Hopefully get installed tonight!


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

adamxrt said:


> Just got my IRT. I noticed Someone complained about it just having an air valve sticking out liable to get covered in mud etc. Mine came with a little air valve cap which looks cool. The shaft that the IRT piston sits on is also definitely metal, i recall someone in here saying. Hopefully get installed tonight!


Initially, they were being shipped without the cap but Manitou would shoot one to you in the mail if you asked.


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## OUTSIDER08 (Sep 30, 2008)

P_Nut said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have bought Manitou Mattoc Expert fork two weeks ago from CRC. At first, the fork did ride great, but after a couple of rides (i think today was the 4th ride), the fork developed weird clicking noise when it extends. When the fork compresses there is no noise, only when it extends. It is the same at the beginning or in the middle of the travel. So when the fork is doing its work its very rattly, like it's going to fall apart, especially on roots. It's also very annoying on climbs because the fork bobs very slightly and for every pedal stroke i hear: click-click-click...
> 
> ...


Hi mates,

I´m having exactly the same issues. Same fork (Expert 27,5").
If the solution doesn´t involve special tools, parts or extremely high handling skills, I´d like to fix it by myself.
If not, I will face being without fork for several weeks, since my country´s distributor doesn´t admit warranty repairs if the fork was bought in an other country.
Apart from the quoted, I didn´t find a similar topic in this thread, obviously nor a solution, so any advise will be highly appreciated.

Cheers!


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

OUTSIDER08 said:


> Hi mates,
> 
> I´m having exactly the same issues. Same fork (Expert 27,5").
> If the solution doesn´t involve special tools, parts or extremely high handling skills, I´d like to fix it by myself.
> ...


I would take the damper apart and make sure both the compression and rebound pistons are tight. Sounds to me like one of them is loose and is causing a noise everything you switch from compression to rebound.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## OUTSIDER08 (Sep 30, 2008)

croakies said:


> I would take the damper apart and make sure both the compression and rebound pistons are tight. Sounds to me like one of them is loose and is causing a noise everything you switch from compression to rebound.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


I checked thoroughly if there was anything loose. The only thing that I found suspicious is what you can see In the video.
Now I'm thinking if the position of the spacer, washer and bumper at the lower of the rebound rod could be the cause.
Thanks a lot!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

OUTSIDER08 said:


> Hi mates,
> 
> I´m having exactly the same issues. Same fork (Expert 27,5").
> If the solution doesn´t involve special tools, parts or extremely high handling skills, I´d like to fix it by myself.
> ...


I've fixed two clicking expert models. Both had the rebound check spring (which holds the blow-off shim under the rebound piston) jumped out of place. This lets the blowoff shim float and knock against the piston.

When put back in place they haven't jumped out again.


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## OUTSIDER08 (Sep 30, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I've fixed two clicking expert models. Both had the rebound check spring (which holds the blow-off shim under the rebound piston) jumped out of place. This lets the blowoff shim float and knock against the piston.
> 
> When put back in place they haven't jumped out again.


Now I remember to have seen that coil out of place, sorrounding the rod at it's bottom. I put it in place. I wonder why I dind't gave any importance.
In fact, after reassembly, the sound dissappeared and went again after 15 miles or so.
How can I avoid that coil to jump out of place again?
Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

OUTSIDER08 said:


> Now I remember to have seen that coil out of place, sorrounding the rod at it's bottom. I put it in place. I wonder why I dind't gave any importance.
> In fact, after reassembly, the sound dissappeared and went again after 15 miles or so.
> How can I avoid that coil to jump out of place again?
> Thanks!


Check where the tail of the coil is. If it's on the ledge it should stay. But if it's hanging off the side then it'll likely lead the whole coil to follow a bit at a time.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

IRT installed, went on a ride today but the weather was ****ing god awful and couldnt go very fast due to serious mudpools everywhere (ireland), except for one trail where i smashed my pr and 2nd best. The fork feels great! still need to play around. I cant put the pressure anywhere near the recommended settings for my weight (95kg) [70ish main /105 IRT) or else im limited to about 130/140mm travel, tho. 

I was one of those guys who was having travel issues not getting full amount.

infact to even get 153mm travel which is the most i can get at the moment, i have to go to about 40 psi main chamber and 80 irt. i had the irt at 100 but it seemed to be limiting my travel too a bit.

going riding again tomorrow and should be some big hits tomorrow with the place im going to so ill see how we fare at 40/80 psi It does feel alot better already though.

I checked my oil height last night, but im confused about where i should be measuring it from. It was said "top of stanchion" which to me is the lip of the Stanchion inside the crow, so im not measuring from the top of the outside of the crown like was shown in manitous video. Because when i opened the fork, which is not long back from a manitou service centre (CRC in northern ireland), it was well over 90mm from the crown. When measured from the top of the stanchion inside the crown just below the threads, it was more like 75. I took it down to 80mm. Not sure how much that helped, might take out more. 


I wonder is it possible that my air piston assembly is possibly limited to 150mm travel by accident at factory.. i half remember seeing a spacer on it when i had it apart a couple of months ago (before it was sent for repairs).

for a 27.5mm 160mm mattoc, should there be any plastic spacers on the compression rod assembly when opened???


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Video looks like damper fluid is measured from the top of the crown iirc

Should damper fluid be measured below the threads, that's a bit of a difference there?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Manitou oil heights are from the top of the crown.

Simple check for your correct oil height. Pull the lowers off and see if you can compress the shaft fully by hand. If you can't then it's wrong.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

adamxrt said:


> for a 27.5mm 160mm mattoc, should there be any plastic spacers on the compression rod assembly when opened???


No spacers inside the negative chamber for 160mm travel 27.5mode.
1spacer under the bottomout bumper.


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Manitou oil heights are from the top of the crown.
> 
> Simple check for your correct oil height. Pull the lowers off and see if you can compress the shaft fully by hand. If you can't then it's wrong.


When i opened it, after it had not long been back from the service centre, with a brand new damper isntalled, after i broke the last one, it was like 90mm from the crown, a clear oil.

hmmmm

In other news, a very very very wet and muddy weekend over, i got some decent but disgusting riding in. I achieved what i think was a full 160mm on one drop where the take off was soo muddy i was not in the right position and nearly went over the bars. so not too worried anymore about travel, more about having too little oil in!! wtf!!

I had to send my fork back under warranty to get anew damper after my rod snapped, CRC in northern ireland, who are a manitou service centre, installed a new one and did the oil heights etc.


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## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

Gents, had a few questions for the group... What kind of tire clearance do you guys have with these forks? I'm looking to run maxxis minions 26x2.8 (so roughly 2.6 wide in the real world) and wondered if they will fit? 

Second, is the only difference between the pro and the pro 2 the iva? I couldn't find anything else from reviews or their website...


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## I Like Dirt (Apr 10, 2006)

So I recently got a Mattoc Expert from CRC for my sons new Rune.
Its only got 4 clicks on the rebound so I've contacted Manitou for the update on that and they have promised to send it out to me.
BUT
It seems to have come with the IVA which I thought I was going to have to purchase separately- Bonus
Anyone else seen this?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I can't say for certain, however 26x2.8 should fit quite easily. Plenty of clearance for 27.5x2.6 (measuring a true 2.5") and the main concern is the tyre height, so 26" tyres should be fine. The only issue I can think of is whether the smaller diameter makes the tread line up poorly with the buldges in the lowers.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I Like Dirt said:


> So I recently got a Mattoc Expert from CRC for my sons new Rune.
> Its only got 4 clicks on the rebound so I've contacted Manitou for the update on that and they have promised to send it out to me.


I thought the Expert only had four clicks and the Pro nine?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Notched said:


> I thought the Expert only had four clicks and the Pro nine?


They updated the expert rebound for more clicks at some point.


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## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

phreeky said:


> I can't say for certain, however 26x2.8 should fit quite easily. Plenty of clearance for 27.5x2.6 (measuring a true 2.5") and the main concern is the tyre height, so 26" tyres should be fine. The only issue I can think of is whether the smaller diameter makes the tread line up poorly with the buldges in the lowers.


Cool, thanks! I'll have to pick one up.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Just a quick one. 7ml or 15ml of fox gold semi-bath in each leg of the lowers?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

thedrizzle said:


> Just a quick one. 7ml or 15ml of fox gold semi-bath in each leg of the lowers?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I use 10ml and have had no issues with oil getting sucked into the damper. Wouldn't go any higher th an that though.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> I use 10ml and have had no issues with oil getting sucked into the damper. Wouldn't go any higher th an that though.


Thanks mate, i chucked in 10ml.

So i pulled my new for apart to do the wheel size conversion, again( I bought a a mattoc about a month ago from bikewagon for a ht build and liked it so much i replaced the bike on my dually)

The high speed compression dial doesn't have the full range of clicks (only 4 it is supposed to have 5) and becomes quite hard to move at either end of it's limit. This is not an issue on my other mattoc.

I have checked the 13mm washer and also the screw in the hbo adjuster to make sure the weren't over tightened. They were all good, in fact without either done up it is still laboured movement.

This leads me to believe it might have too much oil in the damper. Am i right in thinking this? I was careful checking the height but the fork or syringe may have been on a slight angle.

The only thing i did differently when converting wheel sizes was not to ball up a rag and stuff it in the too of the staunchion for rebuilding. (It ended with oil everywhere last time...)

I just put the air spring in place then filled the damper, cycled the rebound and installed the damper then put semi bath in the lowers and snug it up.

Has anyone else experienced this? Should i re check the oil? Is it critical to complete the steps in the exact order shown on the manitou wheel conversion video?

Sorry about the essay


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## OUTSIDER08 (Sep 30, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Check where the tail of the coil is. If it's on the ledge it should stay. But if it's hanging off the side then it'll likely lead the whole coil to follow a bit at a time.


Hi Dougal, you were absolutely right. The coil was a mess!
I hope it will stay in place, I´m afraid the ledge is pretty small
Thanks a lot!


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

Hey guys, 

Just received my Mattoc 2 Pro. Been running the original Mattoc for almost 2 years and the 2 went on sale on CRC so bought the bullet for the updates..and Colour change.
Anyway, I'm rather used to servicing my old one, so decided to service the new one when it arrived to check lube levels/etc.
Upon putting all back together i noticed the rebound know would not turn at all...
Even if I use a 5mm socket to grip it...not luck.
I cannot for the life of me remember whether it turned before the tear down and I am 99% certain it wasn't something I did as have done the same thing many times on the old one.
So my questions...what may have cause it, anyone had anything similar and lastly...any ideas on how to fix it.

Shot for the help and looking forward to riding the new one


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Hi Dougal,

As you tune manitou stuff regularly could you please post some pics of proper modified comoression and rebound shimstacks? 
Would a 2 stage compression stack do any good and what effect would a proper Pyramide stack have? 
How does midvalve on the rebound stack look? 
What stack should I do to get a even better Tradition between lsc and hsc to save my forearms from tiring on long days? 
Some pictures would be much appreciated. 
Thanks very much


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Anyone experienced any harsh top out on their mattoc? Is there a simple fix? 


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

J: said:


> Anyone know the width measurement @ the inner arch bulge there (roughly)...or height measurement from top of axle to arch?? Trying to get an idea for rim width / tire height clearance. Smaller side knobs will be used w/ the wider 559 rimz installed. TIA





patrick2cents said:


> Gents, had a few questions for the group... What kind of tire clearance do you guys have with these forks?


Measured clearances from TOP of axle (add 7.5mm for the 15mm axle)

Axle to arch ~ 355mm
Axle to bulge ~ 299mm
Bulge to bulge ~ 73mm


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## Sectornaut (Jan 29, 2016)

Harsh top out on dorado air is usually caused by the fork being over extended(shock pump was removed with the top out bumper compressed)
Try compressing the fork with a pump attached then extending it until you feel contact with the top out bumper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Sectornaut said:


> Harsh top out on dorado air is usually caused by the fork being over extended(shock pump was removed with the top out bumper compressed)
> Try compressing the fork with a pump attached then extending it until you feel contact with the top out bumper.


Top out is caused by the negative air chamber not filling or pressurising properly.

Check valve rod protrusion (1.3mm is my magic number) and try a different pump if that checks out.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Top out is caused by the negative air chamber not filling or pressurising properly.
> 
> Check valve rod protrusion (1.3mm is my magic number) and try a different pump if that checks out.


Poppet valve was all good dougal, i checked with the shock pump attached as you suggested and it cycles through travel easily. Seems to be all sorted now, will see how it holds up on a proper ride. Thanks a bunch for your help via shockcraft. Legend.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I am trying to decide between upgrading my xfusion sweep with the roughcut hsc or buy an used mattoc with IRT. I like how most of the mattocs adjustments have only 5 clicks, the simpler the better for me. I also just got a McLeod on the rear. lHas anyone ridden both and have a comparison?


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Why do i need the HBO Bumper...?........I'm an aggressive rider. We have rocky terrain here but not alot of huge hits. I've never had bottom out issues in any of my forks that some HSC couldn't handle. I would just like the fork to be a little more free at the end of the stroke.

I'm 195 pounds.
I run all settings wide open.
IRT - 45/95.

I'm only getting about 125mm of travel out of 150....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cant Climb said:


> Why do i need the HBO Bumper...?........I'm an aggressive rider. We have rocky terrain here but not alot of huge hits. I've never had bottom out issues in any of my forks that some HSC couldn't handle. I would just like the fork to be a little more free at the end of the stroke.
> 
> I'm 195 pounds.
> I run all settings wide open.
> ...


HBO only works in the last 20mm. So if you only get 125mm then the fork is stopping before HBO.

Check your damper oil levels. The fork should be able to fully compress when you connect a pump.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> HBO only works in the last 20mm. So if you only get 125mm then the fork is stopping before HBO.
> 
> Check your damper oil levels. The fork should be able to fully compress when you connect a pump.


Thanks, will check that. I did check the oil height over the weekend. that was my first thought also. I used one of the syringe height measured tools. I made sure height was 77mm for my PRO2.

I actually just measured my travel from last night was 115mm. They way i rode and the trails i would have expected 135-140mm...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cant Climb said:


> Thanks, will check that. I did check the oil height over the weekend. that was my first thought also. I used one of the syringe height measured tools. I made sure height was 77mm for my PRO2.
> 
> I actually just measured my travel from last night was 115mm. They way i rode and the trails i would have expected 135-140mm...


Yes, do what Dougal recommended. Dump out all the air, from both the main and the IRT and see if you get full travel. It should very easily get to 155mm. The last few mm come from the bumper and can be harder to get.

Also, when you attach a pump, add some air and with the pump still attached, push the fork up and down. It should feel very spongy. That is a sign that both chambers are being filled.

Also, you may want to back off on the IRT a bit. Try something like 50/90 or even 50/80 to start.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks for replies. Yes, fork is getting full travel doing the test Dougal suggested.

Rode last night, played with air pressures. I think the fork is very sensitive to air pressure. Gonna experiment next few rides, see if i can get the fork where i want it....not quite there yet.

I wish Manitou would take the lead and dump Air springs on this type of fork. 
My 1998 X-Vert R had TPC and Ti coil springs...i'd love to go back to that.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cant Climb said:


> Thanks for replies. Yes, fork is getting full travel doing the test Dougal suggested.
> 
> Rode last night, played with air pressures. I think the fork is very sensitive to air pressure. Gonna experiment next few rides, see if i can get the fork where i want it....not quite there yet.
> 
> ...


Actually, I find the air spring in the Mattoc to be the most similar to coils. And yes, you are right, the fork and the IRT in particular are very sensitive to air pressure. A little changes things in a big way.

Also, don't use Prep-M on the IRT piston, it is too thin and comes off. Use slick honey.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, I find the air spring in the Mattoc to be the most similar to coils. And yes, you are right, the fork and the IRT in particular are very sensitive to air pressure. A little changes things in a big way.
> 
> Also, don't use Prep-M on the IRT piston, it is too thin and comes off. Use slick honey.


I put that PTFE grease on the IRT seal. Is that OK.......?...I couldn't find the Prep-M anywhere....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Back your IRT pressure right off if you're not getting full travel. It is very easy to overspring the fork with IRT.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cant Climb said:


> I put that PTFE grease on the IRT seal. Is that OK.......?...I couldn't find the Prep-M anywhere....


Should be ok. Don't use prep m anyway, it was great years ago, but there are much better products that stay in place better now. Slicoleum/slick honey are the industry standard.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

My mattoc seems to have developed this weird ticking sound. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm pretty sure i read a similar tale of woe in this thread somewhere. Tried putting some loctite 290 around the steerer and crown. Ticking is still there. Might try put some between the crown and the stanchions. Pretty much looking for diy solutions if anyone has any suggestions?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thedrizzle said:


> My mattoc seems to have developed this weird ticking sound. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm pretty sure i read a similar tale of woe in this thread somewhere. Tried putting some loctite 290 around the steerer and crown. Ticking is still there. Might try put some between the crown and the stanchions. Pretty much looking for diy solutions if anyone has any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To isolate a creak you need to pull the CSA out, clamp it in a stand and push/pull on each tube.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

thedrizzle said:


> My mattoc seems to have developed this weird ticking sound. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm pretty sure i read a similar tale of woe in this thread somewhere. Tried putting some loctite 290 around the steerer and crown. Ticking is still there. Might try put some between the crown and the stanchions. Pretty much looking for diy solutions if anyone has any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pull the fork from the bike and test by pushing and pulling the legs. I've sent in my 2015 Mattoc twice, its on its third CSA. Hayes has replaced it everytime for free, replaced the damper once and even updated the air-piston seal. It seems like after every bike park season, it develops that creak. But Hayes' customer service is stellar, and the damper on the Mattoc and Magnum is amazing which is why I still use their forks on my two bikes along with my wife's mountain bike.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

thedrizzle said:


> My mattoc seems to have developed this weird ticking sound. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm pretty sure i read a similar tale of woe in this thread somewhere. Tried putting some loctite 290 around the steerer and crown. Ticking is still there. Might try put some between the crown and the stanchions. Pretty much looking for diy solutions if anyone has any suggestions?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Red loctite and heat then prop it up...need to do the top side before crown race goes on...let it sit over night after each application ; )


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

Hi guys  I have a Mattoc Comp:
https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/legacy/mattoc/

And wonder if I can upgrade the compression damper with the one for Expert/Pro - example:
Manitou Mattoc Expert Compression Assemblies 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles

Any thoughts?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

pr3d4t0r said:


> Hi guys  I have a Mattoc Comp:
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/legacy/mattoc/
> 
> And wonder if I can upgrade the compression damper with the one for Expert/Pro - example:
> ...


I can't say for sure but you would have to change the rebound assembly as well.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> I can't say for sure but you would have to change the rebound assembly as well.


Won't work. Comp uses different aluminum with thicker walls for the stanchions, so it won't fit.


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Won't work. Comp uses different aluminum with thicker walls for the stanchions, so it won't fit.


Thanks!


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

how does the mattock 2 pro compare to the pike? my 26 pikes have developed play in the left leg so I'm on the look out for a new fork. I quite fancy the mattock instead of the pike. its going on a transition suppressor so interested to hear from anyone that is riding a 650b fork with 26inch wheels?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

POAH said:


> how does the mattock 2 pro compare to the pike? my 26 pikes have developed play in the left leg so I'm on the look out for a new fork. I quite fancy the mattock instead of the pike. its going on a transition suppressor so interested to hear from anyone that is riding a 650b fork with 26inch wheels?


I have not run the fork as a 650b with a 26" wheel but do run a mattoc as a 26" fork. Most of the demo bikes I try either have a Pike or a Fox 34 so I have been able to compare the Mattoc to most of these other forks. The Mattoc in many ways is similar to the Pike. The small bump compliance is similar and I actually find the big-hit and jump performance of the Mattoc to be better. The Mattoc has a very linear feel but bottomless at the same time. I never feel that I have pushed the fork to the limit - which really urges me to go faster and faster.

Also, the fork is very easy to service and maintain. To me, this is a big plus. Change bath oil twice a year and that is about it.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

well I've ordered one with the IRT mod.


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## CogHog (Jul 11, 2014)

POAH said:


> how does the mattock 2 pro compare to the pike? my 26 pikes have developed play in the left leg so I'm on the look out for a new fork. I quite fancy the mattock instead of the pike. its going on a transition suppressor so interested to hear from anyone that is riding a 650b fork with 26inch wheels?


I've got both, Mattoc Expert near new for sale actually, and to be honest the Mattoc is just as good. To be honest if I had it to do over I wouldn't have bought the Pike and would sell it but I've already matched all my parts to the fork stickers and don't wanna mess with swapping them around. I would say between the two on performance it's a push. Pike is slightly better on really rough rock gardens due to stiffness but the mattoc is just as good everywhere else and actually plusher especially on drops like mentioned above. Where the Mattoc truly wins though is on price and serviceability. Don't get me wrong I like my Pike but the Mattoc to me was just as good almost everywhere and half the price.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

POAH said:


> well I've ordered one with the IRT mod.


One other mod that you can do that was recommended by mullen119 is to move to 34 SKF seals (the green ones) and Fox gold fluid for bath oil. Don't have to do it right away but it does make the fork even plusher. The only negative is that the Fox gold becomes molasses when the temps go below 45.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> One other mod that you can do that was recommended by mullen119 is to move to 34 SKF seals (the green ones) and Fox gold fluid for bath oil. Don't have to do it right away but it does make the fork even plusher. The only negative is that the Fox gold becomes molasses when the temps go below 45.


Manitou have new seals on the way. The same low-friction and low temperature versions developed for the Mastodon.

They also tested a massive range of oils. Supergliss is the best in the warm. Semibath (it's back on the menu) is the best all-round and works great in the ice.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Manitou have new seals on the way. The same low-friction and low temperature versions developed for the Mastodon.
> 
> They also tested a massive range of oils. Supergliss is the best in the warm. Semibath (it's back on the menu) is the best all-round and works great in the ice.


I was going to post this, but didn't think we were supposed to talk about it yet.

The new seals are better than the green skf seals. I don't think they are available aftermarket yet, but it's worth the wait imo.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I was going to post this, but didn't think we were supposed to talk about it yet.
> 
> The new seals are better than the green skf seals. I don't think they are available aftermarket yet, but it's worth the wait imo.


Talking about what?:headphones:

They're not out yet. But they're on the way.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

That would be nice. I can't say the old system with the oil seal and dust seal was bad. Once broken in I found them to be fine. I also liked how there would be zero loss of bath oil over time. I don't know if it was the SKF or the Fox gold but they do feel a little better. But when the bath oil goes, it goes and you can feel it!


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Fork arrived but need to fit it which I'll do soon then the tinkering with pressures can begin.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

ok fitted it and I've got 50psi in the main chamber and 80psi in the IRT, I've left the LSC, HSC and HBO fully open for the now as I've only had limited testing. It seems well balanced with my coil.

First thing is the mattock for me is better over high speed impacts over tree roots etc than my pike was (with luftkappe). used 112mm of travel but never did anything large so need to wait till I hit 4-5ft drops


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> That would be nice. I can't say the old system with the oil seal and dust seal was bad. Once broken in I found them to be fine. I also liked how there would be zero loss of bath oil over time. I don't know if it was the SKF or the Fox gold but they do feel a little better. But when the bath oil goes, it goes and you can feel it!


Current Manitou seals are as good as it gets for forks with dedicated oil seals. Less contact points mean less friction though, this is why the switch is being made. Most high performance seals are down to two contact points with the stanchion, so they had to adapt.

Manitou did a good job of walking the fine line between low friction and proper sealing. No details, but once available aftermarket, don't buy the skf seals anymore. There are tests that back up that statement.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

POAH said:


> ok fitted it and I've got 50psi in the main chamber and 80psi in the IRT, I've left the LSC, HSC and HBO fully open for the now as I've only had limited testing. It seems well balanced with my coil.
> 
> First thing is the mattock for me is better over high speed impacts over tree roots etc than my pike was (with luftkappe). used 112mm of travel but never did anything large so need to wait till I hit 4-5ft drops


Man, nice bike!


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Is it difficult to modify the rebound damper shim stack? I have a mattoc expert (the one with 8 or 9 clicks setting) and I could use some more rebound damping. I'm 96kg without gear and the knob is already al the way on the + side.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

hurck said:


> Is it difficult to modify the rebound damper shim stack? I have a mattoc expert (the one with 8 or 9 clicks setting) and I could use some more rebound damping. I'm 96kg without gear and the knob is already al the way on the + side.


It's not very difficult. The expert uses 10mm ID shims, so you would have to pick some up. I'm on vacation, so I can't check the OD at the moment. Email [email protected] and ask for a recommendation for your weight. They may send you shims, but you may need to buy them.

If they sent you the newer rebound damper as a self install upgrade, you can steal the shims from the older 4 click damper.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Current Manitou seals are as good as it gets for forks with dedicated oil seals. Less contact points mean less friction though, this is why the switch is being made. Most high performance seals are down to two contact points with the stanchion, so they had to adapt.
> 
> Manitou did a good job of walking the fine line between low friction and proper sealing. No details, but once available aftermarket, don't buy the skf seals anymore. There are tests that back up that statement.


Thanks, I will keep that in mind. The SKF seals are nice but don't do nearly as good of a job keeping the bath oil in the fork as the stock set-up and was thinking of going back.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Thanks, I will keep that in mind. The SKF seals are nice but don't do nearly as good of a job keeping the bath oil in the fork as the stock set-up and was thinking of going back.


I never ran into any issues with the skf seals holding oil unless it was cold. That said. I haven't heard of the new seals having issues at all.

I think you would be surprised going back to the old seals.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I found a good deal on a manitou expert 26. If I converted to 27.5 will the different offset effect the ride? 
Also other than the weight what are the performance differences between the expert and pro? I think they have a different rebound damper. 
I would add an IVA or IRT kit.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The diffrence in offset will chang handling a little bit, but it shouldn't be much. I doubt an average rider would notice.

There is no real performance diffrence between the two, both rebound damper designs are the same, the expert just uses a larger piston and uses more oil. 

IRT if you like to tinker and are picky on spring characteristics, IVA if you just want to adjust ramp up and call it a day. The spring with neither is pretty Damn good, so I would try it as is before upgrading.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nashwillis said:


> I found a good deal on a manitou expert 26. If I converted to 27.5 will the different offset effect the ride?
> Also other than the weight what are the performance differences between the expert and pro? I think they have a different rebound damper.
> I would add an IVA or IRT kit.


I think the Expert travel change HBO cones aren't available aftermarket. So check the fork ships with them.

26" has a shade less crown offset which makes steering more stable. I prefer it. It looks like I'm not the only one as Manitou_NC put up an Instagram post about the same thing:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BTC4-oFhAxA/


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I think the Expert travel change HBO cones aren't available aftermarket. So check the fork ships with them.
> 
> 26" has a shade less crown offset which makes steering more stable. I prefer it. It looks like I'm not the only one as Manitou_NC put up an Instagram post about the same thing:
> 
> ...


When I saw that, I was wondering if they were testing different offsets


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> It's not very difficult. The expert uses 10mm ID shims, so you would have to pick some up. I'm on vacation, so I can't check the OD at the moment. Email [email protected] and ask for a recommendation for your weight. They may send you shims, but you may need to buy them.
> 
> If they sent you the newer rebound damper as a self install upgrade, you can steal the shims from the older 4 click damper.


Thanks, I'll email them


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I never ran into any issues with the skf seals holding oil unless it was cold. That said. I haven't heard of the new seals having issues at all.
> 
> I think you would be surprised going back to the old seals.


The only thing I notice is that when I would do a bath oil change with the old stock seals, it seemed like almost all the bath oil was there. With the SKF seals, when I dropped the lowers I had lost most of the bath oil. And you could feel it. It is not a fast thing by any means but worse than the stock set up.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> I think the Expert travel change HBO cones aren't available aftermarket. So check the fork ships withthem. [/url]


It did come with them, just ordered them seemed like a killer deal, $164.99.

Manitou Mattoc Expert Fork - Brands Cycle and Fitness

Now need the tool kit, what oils and lube do I need to order to change it to 27.5?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> It did come with them, just ordered them seemed like a killer deal, $164.99.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Expert Fork - Brands Cycle and Fitness
> 
> Now need the tool kit, what oils and lube do I need to order to change it to 27.5?


I'm about to order them as well!


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Wow that's a really good deal. Just ordered one for my backup bike. Thanks for sharing. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Does the 26" Mattoc have decent clearance for 27.5 tires? Are the lowers the same?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> Does the 26" Mattoc have decent clearance for 27.5 tires? Are the lowers the same?


Same lowers, only diffrence is 3mm in offset built into the crown. You need to switch the hbo cone on the rebound damper and move a spacer to under the bottom out bumper as well.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I ordered the mattoc tool and reading a bunch of different things on oil. I am wondering what I need. This is what I think.
Slickileum or slick honey 
Motorex 5w oil
Manitou Semi bath oil

Is that all? Should I get different brands?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> I ordered the mattoc tool and reading a bunch of different things on oil. I am wondering what I need. This is what I think.
> Slickileum or slick honey
> Motorex 5w oil
> Manitou Semi bath oil
> ...


Correct other than bath oil. Get either fox gold, or motorex supergliss from dougals company.

You can also substitute the motorex 5wt for the damper with maxima 5wt which is the newest manitou spec. Either is fine


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nashwillis said:


> Motorex 5w oil


Motorex needs to be 2.5wt. It is the same viscosity as Maxima 3wt and maxima 5wt.

The Motorex 5wt is thicker.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Correct other than bath oil. Get either fox gold, or motorex supergliss from dougals company.
> 
> You can also substitute the motorex 5wt for the damper with maxima 5wt which is the newest manitou spec. Either is fine


I see two different maxima 5wt a normal and plush ( looks to be targeted to bikes) is their a difference?

Is supergliss 100k the one I would need?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> I see two different maxima 5wt a normal and plush ( looks to be targeted to bikes) is their a difference?
> 
> Is supergliss 100k the one I would need?


I haven't tried the plush yet, but it's supposed to be very good. Either version would work well.



Dougal said:


> Motorex needs to be 2.5wt. It is the same viscosity as Maxima 3wt and maxima 5wt.
> 
> The Motorex 5wt is thicker.


Whoops. I knew that, but this vacation is throwing my brain waves off :lol:


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Correct other than bath oil. Get either fox gold, or motorex supergliss from dougals company.
> 
> You can also substitute the motorex 5wt for the damper with maxima 5wt which is the newest manitou spec. Either is fine


What wt fox gold do I need? I see a bunch of them.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> What wt fox gold do I need? I see a bunch of them.


Fox gold 20wt bath oil


----------



## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Hi I am having a bit of trouble with my mattoc expert. I have started a new thread under 2016 mattoc expert problems. I have read through a lot of this thread and there seems to be some pretty knowledgeable people on it and was wondering if anyone could give me some help on my thread.

Many thanks 


Martyn


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> It did come with them, just ordered them seemed like a killer deal, $164.99.
> 
> Manitou Mattoc Expert Fork - Brands Cycle and Fitness
> 
> Now need the tool kit, what oils and lube do I need to order to change it to 27.5?


Looks like they realized the error. Price is now 750. Good thing I grabbed one!


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Going from that older rebound to the updated one, has anybody noticed the 26" expert damper oil level height needing to be lowered from the 80mm spec?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> Does the 26" Mattoc have decent clearance for 27.5 tires? Are the lowers the same?


650b 2.5" Breakout clears everywhere by at least 5mm or more


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> 650b 2.5" Breakout clears everywhere by at least 5mm or more


In 26" mode the crown bottoms out 10mm lower than in 27" mode. So check tire-crown clearance carefully.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> In 26" mode the crown bottoms out 10mm lower than in 27" mode. So check tire-crown clearance carefully.


That's a good point, I use the 650b hbo w/ 26" wheels (so I won't forget about crown clearance if I swap wheel size)...just put that new fangled 27er wheel to check arch clearance for fsrxc


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J: said:


> That's a good point, I use the 650b hbo w/ 26" wheels (so I won't forget about crown clearance if I swap wheel size)...just put that new fangled 27er wheel to check arch clearance for fsrxc


 CLearance is fine if the fork is set up for 27.5. Manitou tire clearance spec at the crown is larger than other manufacturers.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

My question is about the damper oil height, how low can you go without causing damping issues?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J: said:


> My question is about the damper oil height, how low can you go without causing damping issues?


The useable range is about 1mm either direction from spec. Any lower and the damping suffers, any more and it starts to limit the ability to use full travel. There is no real reason to change from stock height.

The oil heights are the same, no matter the wheel size configuration.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> The useable range is about 1mm either direction from spec. Any lower and the damping suffers, any more and it starts to limit the ability to use full travel. There is no real reason to change from stock height.
> 
> The oil heights are the same, no matter the wheel size configuration.


Thanks Mullen, haven't had any damping issues, always try to get suspension linear as possible is all...is that because it's designed to ideally have a small pool of fluid inside the open tube above the piston there? Just wondering what the thinking is there, measuring the assembly from the top cap down, seemed as if you could remove more and it would still be submerged.

Anyway it's a nice fork imo, smooth and not too divey


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> Just wondering what the thinking is there, measuring the assembly from the top cap down, seemed as if you could remove more and it would still be submerged.


Even though the piston is submerged, the oil jets can break the surface and cause foaming.

Which is why the recommended heights are as high as they can practically be.


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

got some more time on my new mattoc over the weekend. manged to use 136mm on some drop offs so have reduced the IRT pressure slightly to get it in the HBO zone. I'm well impressed with the fork though, it is better than the pike over small fast hits (vid below) but I'll need to play about with the HSC for the bigger stuff and slow the rebound down a click or two from where is it.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

My Mattoc Pro was not reaching full travel. It stopped around 140mm out of 160mm. I pulled the lowers off and confirmed that the issue was on the damper side, not the air spring side. I had fresh oil handy, so I decided to service the damper. While unscrewing the compression assembly, air hissed out along with some oil. I was able to fully compress the rebound rod as soon as the pressure was relieved. 

I'm not sure whether to blame excessive pressure or oil in the damper for the inability to reach full travel, but I suspect pressure. The fork used all 160mm travel when it was new 6 month ago, and the oil that I poured out of the damper looked reasonably clear (uncontaminated with oil from the lowers). Assuming my suspicion about pressure buildup in the damper is correct, is there anything I can do to avoid it? Is this a consequence of transitioning from winter to summer temperatures?

Now, after reassembly with the oil 77mm from the top, I am able to compress the damper all the way. However, I still feel some resistance (pressure) as the rebound rod nears the end of it's stroke. Is this normal?


----------



## YOYOHO (Oct 26, 2016)

Hey guys, just an upgrade question. I picked up a 160mm Mattoc Comp (with Dorado air spring) from CRC during their Black Friday sales and have just built it up into an 64 degree head angled steel hard tail for some rowdy fun. 

Had a couple of rides so far and really like the fork. It's pretty limited in the adjustments and have just purchased the IVA spacers but haven't fitted. What else would you suggest? I know the IRT won't fit a Comp. Rest of it is stock standard oil, oil levels and seals. 

Also is there anything that can be done to increase rebound rate as mine at full adjustment is pretty slow.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

miniwisejosh said:


> My Mattoc Pro was not reaching full travel. It stopped around 140mm out of 160mm. I pulled the lowers off and confirmed that the issue was on the damper side, not the air spring side. I had fresh oil handy, so I decided to service the damper. While unscrewing the compression assembly, air hissed out along with some oil. I was able to fully compress the rebound rod as soon as the pressure was relieved.
> 
> I'm not sure whether to blame excessive pressure or oil in the damper for the inability to reach full travel, but I suspect pressure. The fork used all 160mm travel when it was new 6 month ago, and the oil that I poured out of the damper looked reasonably clear (uncontaminated with oil from the lowers). Assuming my suspicion about pressure buildup in the damper is correct, is there anything I can do to avoid it? Is this a consequence of transitioning from winter to summer temperatures?
> 
> Now, after reassembly with the oil 77mm from the top, I am able to compress the damper all the way. However, I still feel some resistance (pressure) as the rebound rod nears the end of it's stroke. Is this normal?


I experienced exactly what you speak of about 2 years ago on a trip to Colorado. From Kansas, it was a change in altitude from 1800' to 9500'. Oddly, it didn't do that last year and I can't say why. I also had oil migration from the bath oil into the damper, twice, but it has not done it again. I have not replaced the seal head in the damper side leg. I thought I'd have to, but no.

The second thing you speak of would be normal operation from HBO. It gets pretty hard to compress that final 15mm.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> I experienced exactly what you speak of about 2 years ago on a trip to Colorado. From Kansas, it was a change in altitude from 1800' to 9500'. Oddly, it didn't do that last year and I can't say why. I also had oil migration from the bath oil into the damper, twice, but it has not done it again. I have not replaced the seal head in the damper side leg. I thought I'd have to, but no.
> 
> The second thing you speak of would be normal operation from HBO. It gets pretty hard to compress that final 15mm.


Almost a year ago, my fork felt funny (maybe 6-9 months in) and I was afraid that the damper was engulfing the bath oil. When I started opening the damper, it did the exact thing you guys mentioned. I checked oil level, which was fine and have never had a problem since. Was very odd.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Motorex needs to be 2.5wt. It is the same viscosity as Maxima 3wt and maxima 5wt.
> 
> The Motorex 5wt is thicker.


I got one of the 26" Mattoc Experts, and I'll need to change it to 150mm 27.5", but don't currently have any damper oil that is around [email protected] Since I'm ~150lbs, usually run LSC and LSR most or all the way out on other forks, and I have some Red Line 2.5wt (9.8cSt), would that be too light for the damper?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

YOYOHO said:


> Hey guys, just an upgrade question. I picked up a 160mm Mattoc Comp (with Dorado air spring) from CRC during their Black Friday sales and have just built it up into an 64 degree head angled steel hard tail for some rowdy fun.
> 
> Had a couple of rides so far and really like the fork. It's pretty limited in the adjustments and have just purchased the IVA spacers but haven't fitted. What else would you suggest? I know the IRT won't fit a Comp. Rest of it is stock standard oil, oil levels and seals.
> 
> Also is there anything that can be done to increase rebound rate as mine at full adjustment is pretty slow.


You can adjust the rebound shim stack to change the range. Are you full fast or full slow?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> I got one of the 26" Mattoc Experts, and I'll need to change it to 150mm 27.5", but don't currently have any damper oil that is around [email protected] Since I'm ~150lbs, usually run LSC and LSR most or all the way out on other forks, and I have some Red Line 2.5wt (9.8cSt), would that be too light for the damper?


It would likely be ok. Thinner is better than thicker imo. I'd say give it a try.

That said, I received my close out 26" Mattoc today, and was able to convert to 27.5 without the need to change the oil. Keep the csu upside down when you pull the rebound damper out and try not take too much oil with the damper. The 27.5 hbo cone is 10mm longer and displaces more oil, so I actually needed to remove 1mm of oil.

Mine came with the new air piston and the 9 click rebound damper as well. Nice little bonus to not have to get them later.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> It would likely be ok. Thinner is better than thicker imo. I'd say give it a try.
> 
> That said, I received my close out 26" Mattoc today, and was able to convert to 27.5 without the need to change the oil. Keep the csu upside down when you pull the rebound damper out and try not take too much oil with the damper. The 27.5 hbo cone is 10mm longer and displaces more oil, so I actually needed to remove 1mm of oil.
> 
> Mine came with the new air piston and the 9 click rebound damper as well. Nice little bonus to not have to get them later.


good info, I didn't think about keeping the damper inverted while adding the spacer.
Do I need a conversion kit other than the spacers that come with the fork?


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Ah, I completely forgot about HBO (I always leave it at minimum). That makes sense. 

I also plan to do a low altitude to high altitude trip in the fall. Guess I will see what luck I have!

Anyways, good to hear it isn't an isolated issue. Thanks!


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> good info, I didn't think about keeping the damper inverted while adding the spacer.
> Do I need a conversion kit other than the spacers that come with the fork?


No. You just need to install the black hbo cone (with the silver ring on it which is is the bag, but not installed on the cone)

The 26" forks come with a travel spacer installed (they can extend to 170), so to go 27.5 @150mm, you do not need to remove the air spring. Just add a bottom out spacer under the rubber bottom out bumper.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The hbo system will not limit travel when cycling by hand. The shaft velocities need to be much higher to feel the effect the hbo system gives. 

You should feel it get slightly stiffer as you compress the fork since you are compressing the air in the leg, as well as the foam compensator. It should be minimal though and not require very much effort. If it does, something is wrong.


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I received my mattoc expert and the built date is 2014, I have read that since then they have updated a couple things and manitou will send them to you if you contact them. Can anyone confirm this? I think it's an air spring or rebound damper?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nashwillis said:


> I received my mattoc expert and the built date is 2014, I have read that since then they have updated a couple things and manitou will send them to you if you contact them. Can anyone confirm this? I think it's an air spring or rebound damper?


Yes, updated air piston and rebound assembly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nashwillis said:


> I received my mattoc expert and the built date is 2014, I have read that since then they have updated a couple things and manitou will send them to you if you contact them. Can anyone confirm this? I think it's an air spring or rebound damper?


If your box has a green dot on it, it has the new air piston already. If it has 8-9 clicks of rebound, it has the new rebound damper already.

Even though the build date is 2014, it's likely has the new parts already. Manitou updated the stock quickly with the new parts.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Vespasianus said:


> The only thing I notice is that when I would do a bath oil change with the old stock seals, it seemed like almost all the bath oil was there. With the SKF seals, when I dropped the lowers I had lost most of the bath oil. And you could feel it. It is not a fast thing by any means but worse than the stock set up.


Interesting, I am running the stock seals and the fork was running very rough. Finally got around to dropping the lowers to freshen up splash oil and there was very little in there, no leaks from bottom of fork and nothing on stanchions.

All freshened up and running great, so will keep an eye on it and see if happens again. Running Fox Gold for splash oil.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Originally Posted by *P_Nut*
> _Still no response from the Manitou support. Dissapointing. Thanks for the help though.
> 
> Anyway, i disassembled the fork to see if the noise is coming from somewhere else, but it's still the same. It does matter how I set the rebound. With the rebound set all the way to max (+), the noise is louder and harsher (i can feel it my hands)._
> Pm me your email address


Hi, i have the same problem :-(

Do you have any idea how to solve it?

Cheers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

payze said:


> Hi, i have the same problem :-(
> 
> Do you have any idea how to solve it?
> 
> Cheers


Negative air chamber isn't filling and pressurising. Is the rod in the centre of the air valve extended about 1.3mm?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Negative air chamber isn't filling and pressurising. Is the rod in the centre of the air valve extended about 1.3mm?


I will check that tonight


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Here it is as you said









Maybe I can equalize pressure by connecting the shock pump and pulling the lowers?

Envoyé de mon XT1092 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> I think the Expert travel change HBO cones aren't available aftermarket. So check the fork ships with them.
> 
> 26" has a shade less crown offset which makes steering more stable. I prefer it. It looks like I'm not the only one as Manitou_NC put up an Instagram post about the same thing:
> 
> ...


So did anyone else notice the comment from the guy asking if that was the 29er Mattoc on the right?! Expecting, since we saw it on a bike at Sea Otter this year, that the 29er version will probably be released at Interbike/Outerbike maybe Eurobike this year (2017) as a 2018 product (so Mattoc 2 adding 29er size). Currently saving my pennies for it when its released and will subsequently be selling my Auron, was going to put the RC2 PCS damper in it (about $200) and get an upgraded dropper this year but will save my money for the Mattoc!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> So did anyone else notice the comment from the guy asking if that was the 29er Mattoc on the right?! Expecting, since we saw it on a bike at Sea Otter this year, that the 29er version will probably be released at Interbike/Outerbike maybe Eurobike this year (2017) as a 2018 product (so Mattoc 2 adding 29er size). Currently saving my pennies for it when its released and will subsequently be selling my Auron, was going to put the RC2 PCS damper in it (about $200) and get an upgraded dropper this year but will save my money for the Mattoc!


No comment

But save your money


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> Here it is as you said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you connect a pump and pressurize to 80 PSI and when the pump is still attached, pump the fork. How does it feel? Spongy?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

payze said:


> Here it is as you said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Valve looks good. Try a different shock pump. Some don't depress the rod properly.

Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> So did anyone else notice the comment from the guy asking if that was the 29er Mattoc on the right?! Expecting, since we saw it on a bike at Sea Otter this year, that the 29er version will probably be released at Interbike/Outerbike maybe Eurobike this year (2017) as a 2018 product (so Mattoc 2 adding 29er size). Currently saving my pennies for it when its released and will subsequently be selling my Auron, was going to put the RC2 PCS damper in it (about $200) and get an upgraded dropper this year but will save my money for the Mattoc!


Can't say...........

Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

yes it does feels spongy and the rebond noise is still here.

I contacted p_nut who originaly had this problem, he told me the fork went back to warranty and they changed/moved a spring which was out of his place


Vespasianus said:


> If you connect a pump and pressurize to 80 PSI and when the pump is still attached, pump the fork. How does it feel? Spongy?


Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

payze said:


> yes it does feels spongy and the rebond noise is still here.
> 
> I contacted p_nut who originaly had this problem, he told me the fork went back to warranty and they changed/moved a spring which was out of his place
> 
> Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


A spring out of place can be the rebound check shim spring. It is an issue that only affects the Expert model.

Which have you got?


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Dougal said:


> A spring out of place can be the rebound check shim spring. It is an issue that only affects the Expert model.
> 
> Which have you got?


Exactly i have Expert

Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

i watched the video on changing travel and converting to 27.5. I have a couple questions.

Do you have to take off the MC2 and all those knobs to get the rebound assembly out to add the longer HBO come?
In the video they don't put a spacer at this bottom of the travel adjust side, in the manual I got with the fork it says to put one at the bottom, (there are spacers on the bottom of both sides. Which do I do? 

I can't find lint free towels, will a t shirt work to lay them on while I work?

Thanks for all the help!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> Exactly i have Expert
> 
> Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


Well, that explains that. Hopefully Manitou will help you out!


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

When I add air to the fork it pumps up to 50 psi in one pump then all air releases when I take off the pump. It's an older rockshox pump, do I need a new one? If so which is recommended?


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

nashwillis said:


> When I add air to the fork it pumps up to 50 psi in one pump then all air releases when I take off the pump. It's an older rockshox pump, do I need a new one? If so which is recommended?


Most likely it's not inflating the shock, just pressurizing the pump hose.
Try screwing the pump hose on a bit tighter.
Or, maybe the pin in the middle of the fitting needs to be adjusted out or in.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

Hope so, will be shipping it back to them asap

Thanks for help


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

payze said:


> Hope so, will be shipping it back to them asap
> 
> Thanks for help


Good luck and post back once it is fixed!


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

I let all the air out of my fork and I only get 150-152mm of travel when pushing down on them. I've got the IRT of that makes any difference. Obviously I was expecting 160mm, is it work checking oil hight?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

imo take out valves of 1st and 2nd chamber. Then check for avaliable travel. Maybe little underpressure in lower sucks in.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

@nashwillis - you can also use blue shop towels as lint free...they look like a roll of paper towels but are blue in color and a little bit thicker than your standard paper towels.

Can be found at your Walmart, Target, auto parts stores, Costco, Home Depot, etc.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

fsrxc said:


> Most likely it's not inflating the shock, just pressurizing the pump hose.
> Try screwing the pump hose on a bit tighter.
> Or, maybe the pin in the middle of the fitting needs to be adjusted out or in.


I let all the air out with an Allen wrench and was able to pump it up. I think when I attach it it takes a couple pumps for the gauge to register. Not sure if that is normal but it did add air.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> It would likely be ok. Thinner is better than thicker imo. I'd say give it a try.
> 
> That said, I received my close out 26" Mattoc today, and was able to convert to 27.5 without the need to change the oil. Keep the csu upside down when you pull the rebound damper out and try not take too much oil with the damper. The 27.5 hbo cone is 10mm longer and displaces more oil, so I actually needed to remove 1mm of oil.
> 
> Mine came with the new air piston and the 9 click rebound damper as well. Nice little bonus to not have to get them later.


I will try this with the fork upside down. Do I need to add a spacer to the bottom of the travel adjust side?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

POAH said:


> I let all the air out of my fork and I only get 150-152mm of travel when pushing down on them. I've got the IRT of that makes any difference. Obviously I was expecting 160mm, is it work checking oil hight?


If the IRT is completely depressurized, it should be close to 155mm of travel. I would check the oil levels.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> It would likely be ok. Thinner is better than thicker imo. I'd say give it a try.
> 
> That said, I received my close out 26" Mattoc today, and was able to convert to 27.5 without the need to change the oil. Keep the csu upside down when you pull the rebound damper out and try not take too much oil with the damper. The 27.5 hbo cone is 10mm longer and displaces more oil, so I actually needed to remove 1mm of oil.
> 
> Mine came with the new air piston and the 9 click rebound damper as well. Nice little bonus to not have to get them later.


^^ Slowly trying more doses of "like water" after matching the redline vi, does feel as if the expert damper is getting better...there's one section of the trail I'm remembering now


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I am not able to get the lowers off, the rebound side seems like it might still be attached. I rotated it all the way clock wise. The air side became deattached. Any ideas of what I am doing wrong?


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Are those Fox 34 seals/dustwipers that hard to press in? I bent mine.  Need a specific tool?
Hope my lowers are still ok, they looked that way at least. Put the old ones in for the time being, might revert to the Manitou ones instead of Fox.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Stratus said:


> Are those Fox 34 seals/dustwipers that hard to press in? I bent mine.  Need a specific tool?
> Hope my lowers are still ok, they looked that way at least. Put the old ones in for the time being, might revert to the Manitou ones instead of Fox.


The flangless version need a seal tool. The flangled version does not. Either get the flanged version, or better yet, wait for the new seal from manitou. They should be available shortly.


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Stratus said:


> Are those Fox 34 seals/dustwipers that hard to press in? I bent mine.  Need a specific tool?
> Hope my lowers are still ok, they looked that way at least. Put the old ones in for the time being, might revert to the Manitou ones instead of Fox.


The flangeless seals are harder to press in. I bought an installation tool from an ebay seller that makes the tools himself, $20 compared to the 40+ that Manitou wanted.

Fork Wiper & Oil Seal Installation Press Tools for 32, 34, 35, 36, & 40 MM Forks | eBay


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nashwillis said:


> I am not able to get the lowers off, the rebound side seems like it might still be attached. I rotated it all the way clock wise. The air side became deattached. Any ideas of what I am doing wrong?


You should be able to turn the rebound shaft clockwise to dis-engage it from the lowers. Push down when doing it and when you can push the rebound in, the lowers should be removable.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Flanged seals are the ones with a lip that rests on the lowers, like the original ones and flangles are those without, like the Fox's I had, just to be sure?

When I ordered the 34 Fox ones I didn't see any mention of them being flanged/flangless or an option to select either, not on any of the webshops I order from generally. Might dish out some more for a press in tool then, and try them once more. The Manitou ones are a damn side cheaper though. Don't know when the new ones are available here or if they're easy to press in?

It didn't went smoothly form the start, I made a 8mm thin walled socket myself (took a Dremel to a standard socket), worked well, until this time, cracked it at the first stroke, blegh. Have to fashion a new one or 4mm hex for the time being.

But better news, contacted tech support regarding the air piston, mine is the old version. And they're sending me an updated version. Quick reply and very helpful regarding some questions.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

That's quick, just received the new air piston. They included 5 sachets of Slickoleum, very nice.


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## payze (May 19, 2014)

My mattoc expert is on her way back from the warranty, Dougal was right, it was a spring near rebond valve which moved out of his place, making that clak noise on extension.

Envoyé de mon SGP512 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

OK, almost 2500 posts in this thread now - I want to make sure I didnt miss anything going through it all

altering the travel on my Mattoc - removed one of the spacers increasing the travel from 140 to 150mm

for reassembly am going to use slickoleum https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5039-747/Light-Grease on the piston seal(s) and a dab of it on top of the piston as a replacement to the 3ml of bath oil on top

for the bath oil in the two legs we are at 7.5ml per leg in the lowers (of supergliss even though it is almost impossible to find in Canada)

And if I decide to crack open the dampingcartridge I would need the 2.5W motorex (as stated a few posts above me.

Thanks in advance !


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## Scott5272 (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm sure a lot of you have better maintenance that I do but on one of my last rides the rebound knob on the bottom of the fork threaded off during the ride. I found it and it it back on but it's worth checking that screw every now and then. I'm sure some blue loctite would help also. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

magzky said:


> You can use the 4mm allen method. Not the fastest way to do it but it will get the job done.


I found it pretty finicky unscrewing this way, and can't find "the 4mm allen key method" described here, so can someone clarify how you reinstall with the 4mm key without all the air escaping?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott5272 said:


> I'm sure a lot of you have better maintenance that I do but on one of my last rides the rebound knob on the bottom of the fork threaded off during the ride. I found it and it it back on but it's worth checking that screw every now and then. I'm sure some blue loctite would help also.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Yes, blue loctite is what I use. In the old days, manitou rebound knob could usually be found on most trails...


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

A mate of mine has just gone and loaded up the damper side of his Mattoc with Supergliss. Can he just pour it out or does he need to do something a little more finicky? Cheers.


----------



## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

fsrxc said:


> I found it pretty finicky unscrewing this way, and can't find "the 4mm allen key method" described here, so can someone clarify how you reinstall with the 4mm key without all the air escaping?


Completely compress the fork, let all air out of course. As you've probably found out, when sticking the 4mm hex in the air escapes and you push in the compression rod (air shaft), so the thread doesn't engage. When compressing it you can engage the threads, just do it up a few turns and whilst extending it depress the valve so you can actually extend the lowers, and you don't pull a vacuum on the lowers by letting some air past the threads. When at full travel you can turn it the rest of the way (3.5-4.5Nm).


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

006_007 said:


> OK, almost 2500 posts in this thread now - I want to make sure I didnt miss anything going through it all
> 
> altering the travel on my Mattoc - removed one of the spacers increasing the travel from 140 to 150
> 
> ...


I thought it was 15ml in each leg, can someone confirm what is the correct amount?


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

nashwillis said:


> I thought it was 15ml in each leg, can someone confirm what is the correct amount?


Original manual says 15ml. Since that time, Manitou tech has revised that guidance to 7.5. I personally use a bit more, 10ml.


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

ColinL said:


> Original manual says 15ml. Since that time, Manitou tech has revised that guidance to 7.5. I personally use a bit more, 10ml.


Thanks for clarifying.
What are the pros/cons or difference of using 10 vs 7.5?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> A mate of mine has just gone and loaded up the damper side of his Mattoc with Supergliss. Can he just pour it out or does he need to do something a little more finicky? Cheers.


Oh dear!

Yes it'll pour out. Mostly. It's pretty think and clingy. I think you'll still see some of it coming out in the next damper oil change.



nashwillis said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> What are the pros/cons or difference of using 10 vs 7.5?


Manitou reduced the level to reduce the chance of bath oil being transferred into the lowers. But for me it's never been an issue.

I use 10 in other peoples Mattocs and 15 in my own.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> Yes it'll pour out. Mostly. It's pretty think and clingy. I think you'll still see some of it coming out in the next damper oil change.


 He's the guy that emailed you overnight for some Supergliss and Motorex 2.5 wt.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Nick from Manitou just posted this on Instagram, unmarked fork but tagged as Mattoc, not sure if the angle but do they look like 29 wheels?


__
http://instagr.am/p/BVaQr30BzFu/


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shiny said:


> Nick from Manitou just posted this on Instagram, unmarked fork but tagged as Mattoc, not sure if the angle but do they look like 29 wheels?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BVaQr30BzFu/


No comment....


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> You should be able to turn the rebound shaft clockwise to dis-engage it from the lowers. Push down when doing it and when you can push the rebound in, the lowers should be removable.


I wasn't able to get the rebound to go in and stripped the bolt, am I screwed? Will I have to send it in and get new lowers?

Can I just ride it set for 26 with 27.5 2.6 tire?


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nashwillis said:


> I wasn't able to get the rebound to go in and stripped the bolt, am I screwed? Will I have to send it in and get new lowers?
> 
> Can I just ride it set for 26 with 27.5 2.6 tire?


You stripped the bolt thread or head? Which bolt?

My understanding is that 26" setting will allow a 27.5" tyre to contact the crown - very bad idea!


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

phreeky said:


> You stripped the bolt thread or head? Which bolt?
> 
> My understanding is that 26" setting will allow a 27.5" tyre to contact the crown - very bad idea!


I stripped were you put the 8mm Allen wrench to unscrew on the rebound side.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nashwillis said:


> I stripped were you put the 8mm Allen wrench to unscrew on the rebound side.


Damn. Did you turn it the wrong way? For some the direction to turn is not intuitive due to the way the fork is built. That's not a bolt, it's the end of the damper shaft.

edit: Post a pic of how bad it is. I wonder whether there is enough meat to clean it up with files/dremel/etc and get some kind of tool on to grip it. Until you put some force in the wrong direction it actually would've been fairly loose, they are not torqued up very much at all!


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

phreeky said:


> Damn. Did you turn it the wrong way? For some the direction to turn is not intuitive due to the way the fork is built. That's not a bolt, it's the end of the damper shaft.
> 
> edit: Post a pic of how bad it is. I wonder whether there is enough meat to clean it up with files/dremel/etc and get some kind of tool on to grip it. Until you put some force in the wrong direction it actually would've been fairly loose, they are not torqued up very much at all!


I watched the video and wrote down instructions and still turned the wrong way at first.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

nashwillis said:


> View attachment 1142444
> 
> 
> I watched the video and wrote down instructions and still turned the wrong way at first.


Bad news, I have been down the same path. My issue was the Allen key slipped and rounded it out. Could not get a purchase on the foot nut to undo it and ended up angle grinding the end of my fork off! Had to buy new rebound assembly as the footnut is part of this and new lowers.

If you can get something on the footnut and to get it undone you may be able to save the lowers and just need a new rebound assembly.

When I had the issue Manitou didn't provide any hint or tips, just gave me a list of part numbers.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> No comment....


Ha, very nice. If I can afford a new bike in the future, fork choice will be easy!


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nashwillis said:


> View attachment 1142444
> 
> 
> I watched the video and wrote down instructions and still turned the wrong way at first.


If you can get something - anything - to bite into it and turn it out then yeah, a new damper assembly is the damage. Because it needs to be turned clock-wise, the usual screw extractor solutions will not work. A large self-tapping screw perhaps? You'd have to take the tip of the screw off to give it a chance though. There are definitely ways you could get that out without hacking the fork to pieces, however it comes down to your own personal abilities and some creativity.

The main issue I have with this design is that most people - even those normally careful with torque settings etc - when putting these back together is they don't have the tools to torque them back up correctly. You either need a torque wrench that works in reverse (most torque wrenches do not) or get creative with a crowfoot wrench.


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

shiny said:


> Bad news, I have been down the same path. My issue was the Allen key slipped and rounded it out. Could not get a purchase on the foot nut to undo it and ended up angle grinding the end of my fork off! Had to buy new rebound assembly as the footnut is part of this and new lowers.
> 
> If you can get something on the footnut and to get it undone you may be able to save the lowers and just need a new rebound assembly.
> 
> When I had the issue Manitou didn't provide any hint or tips, just gave me a list of part numbers.


If I am able to get it off where is the best place to get lowers or rebound assembly? Anyone have old ones for sale?


----------



## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm also looking for some spare parts. My air piston (don't know the name, see it on CRC named as compression rod) was also wormed out because I tried to turn the wrong way.
It seems to be hard to find this parts ....


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

phreeky said:


> If you can get something - anything - to bite into it and turn it out then yeah, a new damper assembly is the damage. Because it needs to be turned clock-wise, the usual screw extractor solutions will not work. A large self-tapping screw perhaps? You'd have to take the tip of the screw off to give it a chance though. There are definitely ways you could get that out without hacking the fork to pieces, however it comes down to your own personal abilities and some creativity.
> 
> The main issue I have with this design is that most people - even those normally careful with torque settings etc - when putting these back together is they don't have the tools to torque them back up correctly. You either need a torque wrench that works in reverse (most torque wrenches do not) or get creative with a crowfoot wrench.


I thought I had it turned all the way counter clockwise, loose, and could not get the lowers off. Could damage to the rebound be the cause? Do I need to hammer it out?


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

nashwillis said:


> If I am able to get it off where is the best place to get lowers or rebound assembly? Anyone have old ones for sale?





Samos said:


> I'm also looking for some spare parts. My air piston (don't know the name, see it on CRC named as compression rod) was also wormed out because I tried to turn the wrong way.
> It seems to be hard to find this parts ....
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


I have purchased parts from Chain Reaction Cycles in the past and of course Dougal on here through his business Shockcraft.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nashwillis said:


> I thought I had it turned all the way counter clockwise, loose, and could not get the lowers off. Could damage to the rebound be the cause? Do I need to hammer it out?


On my Mattoc I simply had to undo each side and then a hand on each lower leg and pull. Nothing at all like the Rockshox I've done where you leave a bolt in and give it a tap (or really old Rockshox that have never been serviced where you hammer the crap out of them).


----------



## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

shiny said:


> I have purchased parts from Chain Reaction Cycles in the past and of course Dougal on here through his business Shockcraft.


Thanks, of course CRC but they don't have this part anymore. Dougal is just the farest possible from Switzerland where I leave.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Samos said:


> Thanks, of course CRC but they don't have this part anymore. Dougal is just the farest possible from Switzerland where I leave.


Post works around the world these days....


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Samos said:


> Thanks, of course CRC but they don't have this part anymore. Dougal is just the farest possible from Switzerland where I leave.


Dampers on CRC, no expert model in 27.5 in stock:

mattoc+damper | Chain Reaction Cycles

Mattoc lowers:

Manitou Mattoc Lower Legs 2015 | Chain Reaction Cycles


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shiny said:


> Dampers on CRC, no expert model in 27.5 in stock:
> 
> mattoc+damperÂ* | Chain Reaction Cycles
> 
> ...


The only difference between the wheel sizes are the HBO cones, which should be able to be reused from the existing damper when removed.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Nick from Manitou just posted this on Instagram, unmarked fork but tagged as Mattoc, not sure if the angle but do they look like 29 wheels?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BVaQr30BzFu/


A lot of guys lusting after 29" Mattoc. Not sure why I'm giving this so much attention....


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Samos said:


> Thanks, of course CRC but they don't have this part anymore. Dougal is just the farest possible from Switzerland where I leave.


We send to Switzerland. I can't think of a country we haven't posted to. Even Uzbekistan has had an order.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> A lot of guys lusting after 29" Mattoc. Not sure why I'm giving this so much attention....


Doesn't look like it to me, less that's an XL...I'm definitely seeing what looks like a new chassis with a different offset? Looks near zero offset


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> Doesn't look like it to me, less that's an XL...I'm definitely seeing what looks like a new chassis with a different offset? Looks near zero offset


Nick might have put the crown in backwards for a laugh.

Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Nick might have put the crown in backwards for a laugh.
> 
> Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


I hit pause after a couple seconds (when I saw the low resolution), now I gotta take a closer look:lol:


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*twas an accident but...*

I've installed the reverse arch backwards...too funny:^)


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

phreeky said:


> On my Mattoc I simply had to undo each side and then a hand on each lower leg and pull. Nothing at all like the Rockshox I've done where you leave a bolt in and give it a tap (or really old Rockshox that have never been serviced where you hammer the crap out of them).


I had turned it counter clockwise as far as it would go and still couldn't get them off, maybe I turned it too hard.

I will sell my brand new mattoc cheap if anyone is interested I am tired of messing with it.


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

nashwillis said:


> I had turned it counter clockwise as far as it would go and still couldn't get them off, maybe I turned it too hard.
> 
> I will sell my brand new mattoc cheap if anyone is interested I am tired of messing with it.


Turn clockwise to remove......


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nashwillis said:


> I had turned it counter clockwise as far as it would go and still couldn't get them off, maybe I turned it too hard.
> 
> I will sell my brand new mattoc cheap if anyone is interested I am tired of messing with it.


Yes, as boom said, on this fork turn clockwise to remove. The mattoc is the absolute simplest fork to work on.


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes, as boom said, on this fork turn clockwise to remove. The mattoc is the absolute simplest fork to work on.


I meant clockwise, I have it turned as far clockwise as I could go and probably put more force than needed turning clockwise its stripped now.
It was pretty hard to tune too, not sure if that's normal.


----------



## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

nashwillis said:


> I meant clockwise, I have it turned as far clockwise as I could go and probably put more force than needed turning clockwise its stripped now.
> It was pretty hard to tune too, not sure if that's normal.


I'll take your ****ed mattoc off your hands for a disgraceful price.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Naw, it's not installed backwards (and sure as hell doesn't look twatie9), just watched that vid


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

thedrizzle said:


> I'll take your ****ed mattoc off your hands for a disgraceful price.


Send me a pm with a price if interested.


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

If I have a mattoc expert can I just buy a pro rebound damper and swap it out?


----------



## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

nashwillis said:


> If I have a mattoc expert can I just buy a pro rebound damper and swap it out?


Afraid not.
The HBO cone on the compression damper slots onto the rebound damper.
Pro and expert have different diameter HBO cones.
So you have to have the pro compression damper also.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Completely compress the fork, let all air out of course. As you've probably found out, when sticking the 4mm hex in the air escapes and you push in the compression rod (air shaft), so the thread doesn't engage. When compressing it you can engage the threads, just do it up a few turns and whilst extending it depress the valve so you can actually extend the lowers, and you don't pull a vacuum on the lowers by letting some air past the threads. When at full travel you can turn it the rest of the way (3.5-4.5Nm).


I didn't have the right cassette tool for the seal heads, so I ended up ordering the tool kit from CRC last Friday, and it arrived today, not bad for the cheapest shipping option. Strange that it shipped from Spain though...


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

I had the (Expert) rebound damper out to change the HBO cone, so I took a look at the shim stack. 







The triangle shim and both 21mm shims appear to be ~.14mm thick (I think my caliper battery is dying so it's measuring inconsistent), and the small spacer shims are ~.18 thick, so is that a "two stage" stack? They allow the triangle shim to open easily until it connects with the two large shims?

For most forks I end up running almost no rebound damping, so if I removed one 21mm shim, would it allow me to close the free bleed a bit? Would it reduce LSR or HSR the most?

Edit: I've added pictures of the rebound piston, rebound shim side, showing chamfered compression ports:







and compression side:


----------



## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

If anyone is interested in buying my mattoc expert that has the rebound damper stripped I will sell it for $100, just got it a couple weeks later ago never ridden.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nashwillis said:


> If anyone is interested in buying my mattoc expert that has the rebound damper stripped I will sell it for $100, just got it a couple weeks later ago never ridden.


I'll take it.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal,

Do you know what the Expert rebound stack looks like, (to speed it up for a lighter rider) do you recommend removing a shim, or leave as is and just use lighter oil? I don't want to remove the lowers too often.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Dougal,
> 
> Do you know what the Expert rebound stack looks like, (to speed it up for a lighter rider) do you recommend removing a shim, or leave as is and just use lighter oil? I don't want to remove the lowers too often.


I can't recall offhand the details of that stack. Removing one shim will work, but you may have fatigue issues with the single shim bending too far.
That's not the end of the world though. If you have two, remove one and it breaks then you do have a spare!

More ideal is similar number of softer (thinner) shims as thinner shims can flex further for the same stress. Negating the fatigue issue.

Damping wise a softer shim stack is better than thinner oil. Shims react to oil pressure (shaft force) which means they self regulate to an extent when oil thickens and thins with temperature. Thinner oil to reduce damping generally means more oil through the orifice bypass where you really want more through the piston and ports.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

I've rounded piston ports to "take the edge off", seemed to work in the past to get it to open faster/ start flowing quicker. Different damper though, where there was one or two measly shims on a tiny piston


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

What could be the issue if a Mattoc Expert with IRT kit inflated with appropriate pressures and shock pump attached won't extend fully by itself but can be pulled another inch or so and than slides back.

Might there be a problem with the poppet valve not opening to connect the positive and negative chambers? Would be strange cause I've not had this issue with this Mattoc or pump before. I haven't even ever had the problem of the Mattoc loosing some travel after a while.

Any suggestions?


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I can't recall offhand the details of that stack. Removing one shim will work, but you may have fatigue issues with the single shim bending too far.
> That's not the end of the world though. If you have two, remove one and it breaks then you do have a spare!
> 
> More ideal is similar number of softer (thinner) shims as thinner shims can flex further for the same stress. Negating the fatigue issue.
> ...


Good info, thanks.
I don't have any spare 12mm ID shims, so for now might try removing one then try sourcing some thinner shims.

Assuming the "triangular" face shim affects LSR the most, and the two large round shims are mostly HSR, if I remove one large shim should that let me run a decent amount of LSR without packing down at high speed, or should I be contacting Manitou support to try and get a thinner face shim?


----------



## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Thinking hard about replacing my Lyrik RC2L u-turn coil with a Mattoc. Still a bit confused as to the differences between the Expert and the 2 Pro though, if they've updated the rebound damper for the Expert?

Any good UK/EU deals floating around? Seems the prices aren't as cheap as they were 

Also thinking about a Sweep Roughcut HLR, which can be had much cheaper....


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

tomvanhalen said:


> Thinking hard about replacing my Lyrik RC2L u-turn coil with a Mattoc. Still a bit confused as to the differences between the Expert and the 2 Pro though, if they've updated the rebound damper for the Expert?
> 
> Any good UK/EU deals floating around? Seems the prices aren't as cheap as they were
> 
> Also thinking about a Sweep Roughcut HLR, which can be had much cheaper....


yes, if you read back a few pages you'll see many people including me recently bought Experts with 8-click rebound and updated air piston.
CRC and some German websites have deals, but you don't say what price you're looking for.


----------



## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

fsrxc said:


> yes, if you read back a few pages you'll see many people including me recently bought Experts with 8-click rebound and updated air piston.
> CRC and some German websites have deals, but you don't say what price you're looking for.


So if the rebound and air piston have been updated, what difference remains? Just the IVA cap?

Anything under £500 for the 2 Pro would be good I guess, but I don't know, as low as possible. Weren't Experts going for around £300 at one point?


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

tomvanhalen said:


> Thinking hard about replacing my Lyrik RC2L u-turn coil with a Mattoc. Still a bit confused as to the differences between the Expert and the 2 Pro though, if they've updated the rebound damper for the Expert?
> 
> Any good UK/EU deals floating around? Seems the prices aren't as cheap as they were
> 
> Also thinking about a Sweep Roughcut HLR, which can be had much cheaper....


I got mine with the IRT from CRC. I got british cycling membership which gave me 10% off. Saved overall £40ish plus I can use it every month if I need.


----------



## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

POAH said:


> I got mine with the IRT from CRC. I got british cycling membership which gave me 10% off. Saved overall £40ish plus I can use it every month if I need.


Ah, I'd forgotten about the British Cycling discount. That helps.

So is there any point in buying the pro, or does the Expert and an IRT cartridge get you the top drawer fork just the same?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tomvanhalen said:


> So is there any point in buying the pro, or does the Expert and an IRT cartridge get you the top drawer fork just the same?


Pro has a cartridge rebound damper which reduces oil volume and weight significantly. It might also have a more hollowed out crown. But I'd have to check on that one.

The Expert with it's larger rebound shaft and piston takes a different HBO cone which isn't readily available aftermarket. That only matters if you want to change wheel size.


----------



## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Oh I see. Not too much then. 

Unfortunately looks like the Expert is only available in white now though, which I'm allergic to. 

So that makes it a choice between the Mattoc 2 Pro for ~£500 or the Sweep HLR for ~395. Tricky. Thanks folks


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> What could be the issue if a Mattoc Expert with IRT kit inflated with appropriate pressures and shock pump attached won't extend fully by itself but can be pulled another inch or so and than slides back.
> 
> Might there be a problem with the poppet valve not opening to connect the positive and negative chambers? Would be strange cause I've not had this issue with this Mattoc or pump before. I haven't even ever had the problem of the Mattoc loosing some travel after a while.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Make sure the fork is fully extended when you disconnect the pump.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Make sure the fork is fully extended when you disconnect the pump.


That's the strange thing, even with the pump attached it will retract that last inch again after fully extending it. Seems the poppet valve doesn't get opened by the pump any more?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> That's the strange thing, even with the pump attached it will retract that last inch again after fully extending it. Seems the poppet valve doesn't get opened by the pump any more?


Mine does that at randomly once as well. Pull the lowers so it's extended while you remove the pump. Mine was fine after doing so.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Mine does that at randomly once as well. Pull the lowers so it's extended while you remove the pump. Mine was fine after doing so.


Yep that worked! Man you guys are great!

I'm now going to try to understand what is actually going on inside the fork. When I reattached the pump the fork retracted again, so that should give me a clue. Poppet valve looks like about 1.3-1.5mm.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Yep that worked! Man you guys are great!
> 
> I'm now going to try to understand what is actually going on inside the fork. When I reattached the pump the fork retracted again, so that should give me a clue. Poppet valve looks like about 1.3-1.5mm.
> 
> :thumbsup:


The pushrod connects positive and negative air-chambers to fill them both to the same pressure. But there's better flow to the positive which is why the fork can retract when you connect the pump. Positive air pressure drops first to fill the shock hose and gauge.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> The pushrod connects positive and negative air-chambers to fill them both to the same pressure. But there's better flow to the positive which is why the fork can retract when you connect the pump. Positive air pressure drops first to fill the shock hose and gauge.


Makes sense, thanks.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mattoc 29 was quietly released today, hear is what you need to know

Magnum and mattoc lines have merged under the mattoc name

The standard 29 mattoc (not the 29+ version) is based off of the magnum 27.5+. It's basically the same fork, but when using a magnum 27.5 with 29" wheels, certain tires would come very close to contacting the crown at full compression. Some internal specs have been adjusted and this is no longer an issue

Boost only for the 27.5+/29 and 29+ mattoc

Also, the Manitou jack dropper is now available aftermarket.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Also, the Manitou jack dropper is now available aftermarket.


This one?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Mattoc 29 was quietly released today, hear is what you need to know
> 
> Magnum and mattoc lines have merged under the mattoc name
> 
> ...


Wow, what is the point of such a quiet launch?


----------



## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> Wow, what is the point of such a quiet launch?


That's Manitou for you, never quite doing what everyone else does (for better or worse).


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> The standard 29 mattoc (not the 29+ version) is based off of the magnum 27.5+. It's basically the same fork, but when using a magnum 27.5 with 29" wheels, certain tires would come very close to contacting the crown at full compression. Some internal specs have been adjusted and this is no longer an issue


So similar to the 26/27.5 Mattoc (i.e. reduced max travel)?


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Also, the Manitou jack dropper is now available aftermarket.


Where can I find specs and pricing?


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Mattoc 29 was quietly released today, hear is what you need to know
> 
> Magnum and mattoc lines have merged under the mattoc name
> 
> ...


Thanks! So this means no 130-150mm Mattoc 29er for now it seems or am I reading it wrong?


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I have another question, my wife uses one of the two Mattocs. It's an expert model, with IRT-kit (2,15 times the pressure of the mainchamber). It's gotten the slickhoney treatment and supergliss in the lowers (on mine the above really improved the small bumb sensitivity, no more sour hands at the bottom of a bikepark). Both Mattoc's run Motorex 2.5W racing oil in the damper.

For her however it's not completely perfect yet. (She rides a RS revelation to compare with). She's 66kg ride weight and although she's quite a capable rider, girls apart from their weight generally put less force into the front of the bike. She rides with the compression damping open. So I could imagine she might run below the optimal weight for the standard damping/shimstack? Would you guys also suspect she puts too little force into fork for standard tuned Mattoc? 

I have a friend with a Dorado who's a bit more mechanically inclined than myself so we could probably take a look at the damping if we could get the proper shims or would it just be best to send it in (live in Europe)?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Thanks! So this means no 130-150mm Mattoc 29er for now it seems or am I reading it wrong?


140mm max if my information is correct. It's possible to modify them past that. But not sanctioned by Manitou.



CS645 said:


> I have another question, my wife uses one of the two Mattocs. It's an expert model, with IRT-kit (2,15 times the pressure of the mainchamber). It's gotten the slickhoney treatment and supergliss in the lowers (on mine the above really improved the small bumb sensitivity, no more sour hands at the bottom of a bikepark). Both Mattoc's run Motorex 2.5W racing oil in the damper.
> 
> For her however it's not completely perfect yet. (She rides a RS revelation to compare with). She's 66kg ride weight and although she's quite a capable rider, girls apart from their weight generally put less force into the front of the bike. She rides with the compression damping open. So I could imagine she might run below the optimal weight for the standard damping/shimstack? Would you guys also suspect she puts too little force into fork for standard tuned Mattoc?
> 
> I have a friend with a Dorado who's a bit more mechanically inclined than myself so we could probably take a look at the damping if we could get the proper shims or would it just be best to send it in (live in Europe)?


I'm working on it.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

That's good news on both accounts! :thumbsup:


----------



## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

I'd be interested in that too, as I'm usually only pushing 64-65kgs kitted up, so I usually have the compression adjusters wide open most if the time.


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm almost 80kg kitted up and ride with the LSC/HSC fully open


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm 72kg and have some HSC wound in (2 or 3 clicks), and ride a lot of stuff with the LSC half on however I often open it for sustained descents. I keep it half on if there is a lot of pumping or it's a trail where I really want to weight the front wheel to get it to dig in a lot. I only completely close it on the road.

So I'm surprised to hear of people running both LSC and HSC wide open all of the time.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

POAH, IRT installed?


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> Mattoc 29 was quietly released today, hear is what you need to know
> 
> Magnum and mattoc lines have merged under the mattoc name
> 
> ...


Awesome news. On their product page it looks like a badly photoshopped mud guard has been added to the fork?

https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/forks/mattoc/


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Awesome news. On their product page it looks like a badly photoshopped mud guard has been added to the fork?
> 
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/forks/mattoc/


It's a bolt on. Three bolts into the brace.

Which means it's not really a retrofit option.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> It's a bolt on. Three bolts into the brace.
> 
> Which means it's not really a retrofit option.


Fantastic. Interesting to see if the fork can clear the new 2.6 tyres and looks like no more quick realease just the SL axle. Shame, I really like the quick realease lever.

Presume their dropper is easily serviced by the home mechanic?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Fantastic. Interesting to see if the fork can clear the new 2.6 tyres and looks like no more quick realease just the SL axle. Shame, I really like the quick realease lever.
> 
> Presume their dropper is easily serviced by the home mechanic?


The QR levers are available aftermarket. But they make an expensive upgrade as you need the casting hardware as well.

I haven't been into my dropper yet. Only got it installed on Friday. It's been raining since.

We're still awaiting documentation on some of this new stuff. I need to get a definitive tyre clearance statement from the Engineers.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> The QR levers are available aftermarket. But they make an expensive upgrade as you need the casting hardware as well.
> 
> I haven't been into my dropper yet. Only got it installed on Friday. It's been raining since.
> 
> We're still awaiting documentation on some of this new stuff. I need to get a definitive tyre clearance statement from the Engineers.


Look forward to hear your findings!


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Damn I want that bolt on guard! Helps tyre clearance big time - I had to remove mine to fit bigger tyres in. Although as for 2.6" tyres, easy enough for most in the old Mattoc already (maybe new 2.6" Magic Mary an exception).

I prefer the QR - I remove the front wheel when loading in the car. It's not the smoothest QR in the world but I've learnt to work with it.

When i'm due a new bike a 27.5+ Mattoc will be a priority.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> Wow, what is the point of such a quiet launch?


Not so quiet any more, big ad on pinkbike now.

If I were Manitou I would make a bit clearer on their site to the average customer at what travel each versions is available/can be set. The list below from their site, is not exactly a shining example of clarity:

_100mm (adjustable 80-100mm); 120mm (adjustable 120-140mm); 160mm (adjustable 140-170mm)_

Suspect the correct list would read something like this:

Travel:
27.5": 160mm (adjustable 140-160mm, 170mm for 26)
27.5" BOOST: 160mm (adjustable 140-160mm, 170mm for 26)

27+/ 29" BOOST: 100mm (adjustable 80-100mm)
27+/ 29" BOOST: 120mm (adjustable 120-140mm)

29+ BOOST: 100mm (adjustable 80-100mm)
29+ BOOST: 120mm (adjustable 120-140mm)

Above is not an official list just my interpretation of what is available, hence they should make that information more clear on their website. Perhaps Dougal or Mullen can confirm.

Otherwise awesome that there now seems to be a 120-140mm 29" Mattoc option. :thumbsup:


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

It looks like they've made IRT standard on the Pro "Beginning-stroke Air Pressure; Middle/End-stroke Air Pressure" and IVA on the Comp "Air pressure; Air volume" both in quotes from the website. If so, that's a nice move.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Is that fender compactible with old Matttocs? I need it right now


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Aresab said:


> It looks like they've made IRT standard on the Pro "Beginning-stroke Air Pressure; Middle/End-stroke Air Pressure" and IVA on the Comp "Air pressure; Air volume" both in quotes from the website. If so, that's a nice move.


Good catch, seems so yeah. Indeed good move.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Not so quiet any more, big ad on pinkbike now.
> 
> If I were Manitou I would make a bit clearer on their site to the average customer at what travel each versions is available/can be set. The list below from their site, is not exactly a shining example of clarity:
> 
> ...


Your list above is how we're advertising them. I also only bother with the longest travel versions as shortening them is no problem but shorter versions can't always be stretched.

100 and 110mm axle (boost) versions of what we had. 160mm or 170mm for 26"
110mm axle versions that replace the Magnum 27+/29. 140mm max
110mm axle versions that replace the Magnum 29+. Unclear on 120 or 140mm max.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I got a really quick (holiday weekend) reply from Eric at Manitou Tech Support about tyre clearance and max OD.

It's all in the latest revision of the Fork Owners Manual here: https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Fork-Owners-Manual-REV-E-Pages.pdf

Page 6-7.

Highlights:








The low height boost 110 Mattoc 27.5 officially clears 27x2.6" which is what most seem to be interested in.
Officially the non boost doesn't (27x2.4" stated). But as we all know tyre measurements don't usually match the numbers on the side. So Manitou have given minimum arch clearance numbers too.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Is that fender compactible with old Matttocs? I need it right now


It bolts on and the old ones don't have the bolt holes...........

Nothing in the parts lists about it. Will advise when I know more.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Sorry about not responding, been busy.

It's unclear what the configurations are, I haven't had time to ask. 

One thing to note, is the magnum, minute, and marvel are now gone. This leaves the mattoc, markhor, and machete as the only trail forks. 

IRT is indeed standard. Not so sure that was a good idea as it can be complicated to set up for the average user, but it's what they wanted. 

I'm unaware of pricing, dougal may have that. I'd expect a small price bump over last year's models because of the IRT addition.


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

Is it bad that my first thought is "what parts would I need to bast***!$£ to get more travel"?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> IRT is indeed standard. Not so sure that was a good idea as it can be complicated to set up for the average user, but it's what they wanted.


See your point. Suppose it also depends on the documentation they include with the package.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> See your point. Suppose it also depends on the documentation they include with the package.


 Very true. They were working on a better guide over the winter, but I have yet to see it.

Personally, if dougal sells a coil conversion kit at some point, I'm buying one.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Sorry about not responding, been busy.
> 
> It's unclear what the configurations are, I haven't had time to ask.
> 
> ...


So with the 32mm forks the Machete Boost from last years release continues. The Marvel and Minute range have been rolled (with some spec changes) into Machete Comp and Machete Pro.

Which is a welcome simplification.

Pricing.
$US850 for the Mattoc Pro 27 160mm Boost and normal.
$US950 for the Mattoc Pro 27+ and 29+ Boost.

I do find it kinda funny that the Magnum name has been used by Manitou 3x now in 22 years and each time only for a very short time.
1995 Manitou Magnum was a shorter travel and simpler Manitou 4.
2000 Manitou Magnum was a 1" stanchioned low end fork that I still see around.
2015-17 Magnum we all know.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> So with the 32mm forks the Machete Boost from last years release continues. The Marvel and Minute range have been rolled (with some spec changes) into Machete Comp and Machete Pro.
> 
> Which is a welcome simplification.


My gut reaction was that the Machete Pro seems heavier than the Marvel Pro for the equivalent models. Maybe I'm wrong - not looking at the spec sheets in detail right this moment.


----------



## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Dougal said:


> View attachment 1144751


Why there are two entries for 29+ Mattoc? Minimum arch clearance and maximum tyre diameter should not depend from the tyre size, but the table has two entries for different tyre sizes.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> POAH, IRT installed?


Yeah


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> My gut reaction was that the Machete Pro seems heavier than the Marvel Pro for the equivalent models. Maybe I'm wrong - not looking at the spec sheets in detail right this moment.


It's essentially the same fork with longer travel options. But I haven't dug down into specifics like part numbers and I haven't had a Marvel Pro through to check weights.



arnea said:


> Why there are two entries for 29+ Mattoc? Minimum arch clearance and maximum tyre diameter should not depend from the tyre size, but the table has two entries for different tyre sizes.


Good spotting. All previous literature said 29x3.4" max. I think the 3.0 may be the error as the width doesn't match.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

I must be missing something. I don't see a 29" fork without boost.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I must be missing something. I don't see a 29" fork without boost.


Boost is the future, and it doesn't make financial sense for a small company to make new castings for an obsolete standard. Unfortunately, 27.5 mattocs will shift to boost in the future as well. It's not just manitou, all companies are making the shift.

You can use spacers and re-dish your wheel to convert to boost without to much trouble.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Hot off the phone with Manitou.

Mudguard is only on the 27" boost 160mm fork.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Any idea how far away the new seal kits are? What's the main differences with the old versions?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Kiwiplague said:


> Any idea how far away the new seal kits are? What's the main differences with the old versions?


My stock of them has been stuck in a Sydney freight depot since June 22nd. Apparently malware has destroyed their ability to deliver.

The new seals are one piece with foam rings. New compound too with far lower friction than anything else apparently and much much better in the cold.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Boost is the future, and it doesn't make financial sense for a small company to make new castings for an obsolete standard. Unfortunately, 27.5 mattocs will shift to boost in the future as well. It's not just manitou, all companies are making the shift.
> 
> You can use spacers and re-dish your wheel to convert to boost without to much trouble.


 I hear ya. So nothing is really new except for the name. The old 27+ Magnum could always handle a 29" fork. Everything is just a Mattoc. Simplifies things.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> I hear ya. So nothing is really new except for the name. The old 27+ Magnum could always handle a 29" fork. Everything is just a Mattoc. Simplifies things.


Essentially yes. The 27" boost 160mm (with fender/mudguard) is the only completely new fork and there are internal updates across the range. New seals, IRT etc.

Rumours of more travel available internally. I'll let you guys know when I get into one.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Does it mean that if I want to replace my Mattoc (casting has a lot of scratches and some internals are almost destroyed) and want my old one to be a spare parts fork, I need to buy it as soon as possible ?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> The new seals are one piece with foam rings. New compound too with far lower friction than anything else apparently and much much better in the cold.


Hmm, that's interesting. I need to replace the seals on one of the Mattoc's. Obviously would like to swap for the new version right away.

I have the impressions that with the current seals the slickhoney gives the least resistence, but the PTFE grease suggested to me by scar4me
stayes in place a bit longer. But hard to say for sure.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Samos said:


> Does it mean that if I want to replace my Mattoc (casting has a lot of scratches and some internals are almost destroyed) and want my old one to be a spare parts fork, I need to buy it as soon as possible ?


Honestly, you can find them some places for real cheap. But the internals should be good for a long, long time. Shims should last for many years and the only other thing that should go is the bottom stanchion O seal.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> I hear ya. So nothing is really new except for the name. The old 27+ Magnum could always handle a 29" fork. Everything is just a Mattoc. Simplifies things.


The magnum 27+ had tire clearance issues with 29" wheels and certain tires. Tire clearance with the crown at bottom out was only 1-2mm with true 2.4 tires, and needed to be checked carefully. Now the clearance is acceptable and manitou will endorse using 29" wheels


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Samos said:


> Does it mean that if I want to replace my Mattoc (casting has a lot of scratches and some internals are almost destroyed) and want my old one to be a spare parts fork, I need to buy it as soon as possible ?


Regular, non boost mattoc 27.5 will be around a little while still. I wouldn't worry about it for now.


----------



## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Also noticed the new 27 boost chassis has a lower a2c and lower weight than the old non-boost. Some nice improvements there. Looking forward to trying the new seals out. 

Anybody know of any changes to damper? Shims/pistons

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

My new (2014, Bikewagon, 26") Mattoc Pro just got delivered! Should I do anything to it before the first ride?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

phile said:


> My new (2014, Bikewagon, 26") Mattoc Pro just got delivered! Should I do anything to it before the first ride?


well, it's 160mm by default. so if you want some other travel, set that now.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> Very true. They were working on a better guide over the winter, but I have yet to see it.
> 
> Personally, if dougal sells a coil conversion kit at some point, I'm buying one.


We can bug him untill this is available, who else is in...expert gets a little ruff down heavy chunk above @80psi


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> We can bug him untill this is available, who else is in...expert gets a little ruff down heavy chunk above @80psi


Flying over to take care of all my other day to day work would sure speed things up!


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

ColinL said:


> well, it's 160mm by default. so if you want some other travel, set that now.


Seems like a reasonable place to start--thanks! I won't bother to crack it open if there's no need to top off fluids, check nuts and bolts, make sure it came with x part instead of y part, or whatever. To get 170mm for a 26" wheel, can I just unclip a spacer from the rod? I will certainly try that out at some point.

I found the Mattoc baseline set-up sheet, so I will start with settings from that. Should I expect a lot of change over the first 20 "break in" hours of riding?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> Seems like a reasonable place to start--thanks! I won't bother to crack it open if there's no need to top off fluids, check nuts and bolts, make sure it came with x part instead of y part, or whatever. To get 170mm for a 26" wheel, can I just unclip a spacer from the rod? I will certainly try that out at some point.
> 
> I found the Mattoc baseline set-up sheet, so I will start with settings from that. Should I expect a lot of change over the first 20 "break in" hours of riding?


There is no spacer under the bottom out bumper in 26" mode. To go to 170, you need to remove a spacer from under the air piston.

I don't notice much of a break in with manitou stuff. It's usually pretty smooth on the first ride.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I can't recall offhand the details of that stack. Removing one shim will work, but you may have fatigue issues with the single shim bending too far.
> That's not the end of the world though. If you have two, remove one and it breaks then you do have a spare!
> 
> More ideal is similar number of softer (thinner) shims as thinner shims can flex further for the same stress. Negating the fatigue issue.
> ...


Since the stock shims are ~0.15mm thick, are they "thin" as far as fatigue is concerned, or would 0.1mm shims be that much better?
I'm not having much luck sourcing 0.1mm shims locally, and shipping costs from US and Aus sites are crazy ($20+ for a few shims)


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Since the stock shims are ~0.15mm thick, are they "thin" as far as fatigue is concerned, or would 0.1mm shims be that much better?
> I'm not having much luck sourcing 0.1mm shims locally, and shipping costs from US and Aus sites are crazy ($20+ for a few shims)


A 0.15mm shim is ~3.4x stiffer than a 0.1mm shim but when flexed the same amount experiences 1.5x more stress.

So if you like the result but it eventually fails, then replace it with 3-4 0.1mm shims.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Is the only difference between a Mattoc Pro 2 26 and 27.5 (aside from the HBO cone) the offset?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Is the only difference between a Mattoc Pro 2 26 and 27.5 (aside from the HBO cone) the offset?


Yes.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Yes.


Thanks Dougal,

No real drama running 27.5 then, with a cone change and is the 27.5 cone readily available?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Thanks Dougal,
> 
> No real drama running 27.5 then, with a cone change and is the 27.5 cone readily available?


It's that simple. Change the cone (longer is 27"), put a 10mm spacer under the B/O bumper on the air side and you're done.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> It's that simple. Change the cone (longer is 27"), put a 10mm spacer under the B/O bumper on the air side and you're done.


Spacers and cones available as spares?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Spacers and cones available as spares?


Yep. https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-travel-change-kit-manitou.html


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Flying over to take care of all my other day to day work would sure speed things up!


Seriously going to look into what's needed (got some van yellows to try out next month)...apparently the chunk is causing 2nd loose hs from steerer/stem slippage...new stem to tide me over untill the coil goes in


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

So did another service on my wives Mattoc:

I took some shots of the Expert damper, don't know if it is any use to anyone.

Seals were too old so one leg had barely any bath oil in it. And quite a bit of oil in the negative air chamber (old air piston unfortunately). For now I put some slickhoney on and 2cc of supergliss. Next service will see the new piston (and the new seals and hopefully a light tune shimstack!  )

Damper oil again like last year completely clean. I wonder if it is actually any use to refill the damper each year, I can't tell it from the new I poured in, it's that clean.









The spring was slightly out of place. Repositioned it and the clicking sound at top out was gone.
































A bit of a mess, I admit, but for the moment I only have our kitchen table! 








And the bikes reunited again.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

CS645 said:


> So did another service on my wives Mattoc:
> 
> I took some shots of the Expert damper, don't know if it is any use to anyone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! Are you doing a light tune for compression or rebound?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

croakies said:


> Thanks for sharing! Are you doing a light tune for compression or rebound?


Well my wife at 66kg ride weight finds herself more on the extreme end of the compression side (open), rather than the rebound side which seems to have enough range.

But I'm no expert on such things so it would depend on Dougal doing his magic.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

CS645 said:


> Well my wife at 66kg ride weight finds herself more on the extreme end of the compression side (open), rather than the rebound side which seems to have enough range.
> 
> But I'm no expert on such things so it would depend on Dougal doing his magic.


What is that for a fender ? Seems to fit nicely!


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes it's by far the best fitting on the Mattoc I've had so far. Curves under the arch perfect. It is compatible with both front and reverse arch. Crazy bit is it only costs 3,-

Unfortunately for non-EU it's from the Decathlon house brand B-twin:

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/flash-mtb-front-mudguard-bk-id_8327776.html

The one on the bike in the back is a Marsh guard which doesn't at all fit as well. I should replace it with the B-twin as well.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

CS645 said:


> Yes it's by far the best fitting on the Mattoc I've had so far. Curves under the arch perfect. It is compatible with both front and reverse arch. Crazy bit is it only costs 3,-
> 
> Unfortunately for non-EU it's from the Decathlon house brand B-twin:
> 
> ...


Thanks. As I leave in Switzerland it's a good news !


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)




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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

So will a 170mm 29er exist?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PUNKY said:


> So will a 170mm 29er exist?


180mm 29" is Dorado territory.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

What is the best approach regarding the bushings (I'm continuously learning here)? 

- Top one slickhoney, cause it's harder for the supergliss to get passed the bottom bushing?

- Both bushings slickhoney?

- No slickhoney on either, supergliss does the lubrication?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> What is the best approach regarding the bushings (I'm continuously learning here)?
> 
> - Top one slickhoney, cause it's harder for the supergliss to get passed the bottom bushing?
> 
> ...


Slickoleum/SlickHoney on the top bushing and seal, soak the foam ring with bath oil (new seals have foam rings).
Then oil in the bottom and go riding.

Greasing up the top bushing makes a big difference in that first ride. After that it all settles out.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Slickoleum/SlickHoney on the top bushing and seal, soak the foam ring with bath oil (new seals have foam rings).
> Then oil in the bottom and go riding.
> 
> Greasing up the top bushing makes a big difference in that first ride. After that it all settles out.


Awesome! :thumbsup:


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

PUNKY said:


> So will a 170mm 29er exist?


Doesn't look like it looking at the Mattoc 2 page on the website... Looks like 27.5+/29 will be limited to 150 or 160mm (says 120 to 140 but we all know that probably ain't true). Only thing that most will not like about the 29er is it is Boost only, which is fine by me as I will just grab an MRP or WT boostinator for my DT350 front I have sitting in a box.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Dougal said:


> 180mm 29" is Dorado territory.


yeah. Too bad about the offset amount.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Doesn't look like it looking at the Mattoc 2 page on the website... Looks like 27.5+/29 will be limited to 150 or 160mm (says 120 to 140 but we all know that probably ain't true). Only thing that most will not like about the 29er is it is Boost only, which is fine by me as I will just grab an MRP or WT boostinator for my DT350 front I have sitting in a box.


Everything I have seen points to 140mm max for the 27.5+/29 mattoc. There may be some room to stretch it to 150, but not that will be sanctioned by Manitou.

It's basically a magnum 27.5+, but with a few tweaks to make it fit the specs manitou requires for a 29" fork. (Tire clearances at bottom out while keeping a fully functional HBO circuit )


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wonder if Manitou has something in the works for a Long Travel 29er fork (up to 160mm) or maybe that is the next revision of the Mattoc Pro2.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Wonder if Manitou has something in the works for a Long Travel 29er fork (up to 160mm) or maybe that is the next revision of the Mattoc Pro2.


It's unlikely to happen in the near future unless an oem contract was to come about.

I personally don't get it, but I'm sure they have a reason why it hasn't happened yet. Manitou is a great company, with some great employees. They make some questionable decisions though. The press release for the new mattocs was terrible, and gave no information about the fork. They desperately need to hire a PR person.


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> It's unlikely to happen in the near future unless an oem contract was to come about.
> 
> I personally don't get it, but I'm sure they have a reason why it hasn't happened yet. Manitou is a great company, with some great employees. They make some questionable decisions though. The press release for the new mattocs was terrible, and gave no information about the fork. They desperately need to hire a PR person.


Well, honestly I would rather them have a terrible Press Release because they are using John in the warehouse to write it which translates into savings for me vs. paying someone's salary to write super-duper Press Releases and increase the cost of their products. Also, it took what, 4yrs for the 29er version of the Mattoc to be released (close to 5yrs) so maybe down the road a bit.


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I have been waiting for this fork, just going to wait for the price to lower a bit and this is going to be my next upgrade.
I have a Pike RCT3 140mm on another bike but I'm a fanboy of Manitou so I wanted to get a Mattoc 140mm to be matchy matchy with my shocks .


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Well, honestly I would rather them have a terrible Press Release because they are using John in the warehouse to write it which translates into savings for me vs. paying someone's salary to write super-duper Press Releases and increase the cost of their products. Also, it took what, 4yrs for the 29er version of the Mattoc to be released (close to 5yrs) so maybe down the road a bit.


I hear ya on a lower price, but the lack of info is annoying (even though I already know 90% of it). The lack of giving travel configurations for each size is unacceptable. No mention of the jack seat post as aftermarket or the minute/marvel rolling into the markhor/machete is also a bad move. The idea is to sell products, not confuse the costumers. I should volunteer to write the press releases.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I hear ya on a lower price, but the lack of info is annoying (even though I already know 90% of it). The lack of giving travel configurations for each size is unacceptable. No mention of the jack seat post as aftermarket or the minute/marvel rolling into the markhor/machete is also a bad move. The idea is to sell products, not confuse the costumers. I should volunteer to write the press releases.


Yes, I think you should be in charge of the press releases, to keep all of the costume designers un-confused ;-)


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

006_007 said:


> Yes, I think you should be in charge of the press releases, to keep all of the costume designers un-confused ;-)


Hahahaha, that's what happens when I write replies grom my phone I guess 😂😂😂


----------



## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

Hey all, has anyone run across a Manitou expert that had a green sticker on the box, but only 4 rebound settings? A buddy an I bought a pair of them (he's building up a bike, I'm just putting a new fork on mine) and mine had 8 rebound clicks, and his only had 4. They both have about the same amount of rotation on the rebound knob (about half a turn).

I know the air spring was supposed to be updated on the boxes with a green sticker, as well as the rebound settings. Any other way to confirm the forks were/were not updated with new internals?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

patrick2cents said:


> Hey all, has anyone run across a Manitou expert that had a green sticker on the box, but only 4 rebound settings? A buddy an I bought a pair of them (he's building up a bike, I'm just putting a new fork on mine) and mine had 8 rebound clicks, and his only had 4. They both have about the same amount of rotation on the rebound knob (about half a turn).
> 
> I know the air spring was supposed to be updated on the boxes with a green sticker, as well as the rebound settings. Any other way to confirm the forks were/were not updated with new internals?


Isn't the green sticker for the air piston upgrade?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather. 

Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.

But forks usually feel great after a service with fresh lube on the bushings. So I'll see how this progresses over the next few rides. I am confident but I also need to test things for myself.

These aren't shipping to normal people yet. 

The older 2 piece seals worked very well for me keeping oil in and debris out. But they did get noticably tighter in the cold and also in between servicing. Manitou claims less friction than SKF 34mm seals and so far it's true.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather.
> 
> Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.
> 
> ...


So in your opinion what you are feeling is more the seals, or the lighter oil? Or a combo of the two?

Its crazy that the Mattoc can feel better - I am loving mine, and I haven't even installed an IRT on mine yet.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Green sticker, on the 26" one, marked the updated air spring seal


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

006_007 said:


> So in your opinion what you are feeling is more the seals, or the lighter oil? Or a combo of the two?


This is the bit where I want to test furthur. But riding time is already limited over winter so I had to short cut the full experiment.

I don't yet know how thick is too thick for lube oil. It basically adds to the damping. My Nixon with Supergliss still works great in winter. But will it work better with thinner bath oil?

Too early to tell.



006_007 said:


> Its crazy that the Mattoc can feel better - I am loving mine, and I haven't even installed an IRT on mine yet.


Yesterday I found myself adding LSC on a flat trail to give it some trail feel and feedback. Something I've never had to do on the Mattoc before. I am running coil spring. But still.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather.
> 
> Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.
> 
> But forks usually feel great after a service with fresh lube on the bushings. So I'll see how this progresses over the next few rides. I am confident but I also need to test things for myself.


Sounds good!



Dougal said:


> The older 2 piece seals worked very well for me keeping oil in and debris out. But they did get noticably tighter in the cold and also in between servicing. Manitou claims less friction than SKF 34mm seals and so far it's true.


I agree on the sealing quality of the original seals hich was very good (except if you leave them on too long like I did). But still lowers and bushings look very good.

Can't wait to try the new ones once available. I suppose they have to make them available at some point for Mastodon customers anyway.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> I agree on the sealing quality of the original seals hich was very good (except if you leave them on too long like I did). But still lowers and bushings look very good.
> 
> Can't wait to try the new ones once available. I suppose they have to make them available at some point for Mastodon customers anyway.


The seals are on all 34mm manitou forks from this point forward, not just the mastodon.

Lab testing showed a significant decrease in friction over the Skf seals, while passing all contamination tests. So less friction and better sealing.....

Those of us running Skf seals know the jump they made over the stock 2 piece seals on friction. The gap is similar between the new seals and the Skf seals. They are that much smoother.

My point, as I stated a few pages back, is buy the new seals. Not sure when they will be available online, but shops should be able to order any time now


----------



## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Ill hold out for those then, maybe I'll try the Fox/SKF 34 once more, or Racing Bros if they don't hold out that long.

Great deal for Euro bikers!https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=237002;menu=1000,2,121;page=3
Very tempting I must say... But other things seem to take priority.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

does the mattoc pro 2 2016 with gold stanchion got any well known major problems?

whats the difference between pro and pro 2?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

nikon255 said:


> does the mattoc pro 2 2016 with gold stanchion got any well known major problems?


Not that I know.



nikon255 said:


> whats the difference between pro and pro 2?


If I remember correctly the 2 has the IVA kit and the Allen key through axle as standard.

Legacy models can be found here:
https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/legacy/


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I am running coil spring./QUOTE]
> 
> In mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Dougal said:
> 
> 
> > I am running coil spring.
> ...


Yeah. But it's all custom. Not anything easy or ready for sale. Sorry.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> ... it's all custom. Not anything easy


Did you use the stock top cap at least?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J: said:


> Did you use the stock top cap at least?


Yep.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> Not that I know.
> 
> If I remember correctly the 2 has the IVA kit and the Allen key through axle as standard.
> 
> ...


This is correct. Slight tune change between the 2 as well. Overall, not huge differences.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

New seals are up, but limited quantity:

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


__
http://instagr.am/p/BWyPktdFb44/


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Dougal said:


> New seals are up, but limited quantity:
> 
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html
> 
> ...


And ordered! Just a quick query, with the new seals, is the oil seal removed on install or left in place?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Kiwiplague said:


> And ordered! Just a quick query, with the new seals, is the oil seal removed on install or left in place?


Oil seal and it's retaining clip are gone.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

Does anybody know if the CSU with black stanchions is available for sale?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Yeah. But it's all custom. Not anything easy or ready for sale. Sorry.


you are my hero  A little bit of lather and you are ready to go. At least could you tell what fork spring fits there? Mattoc should have longer stanchion than pike, so it should be easier to order a custom spring in proper lenght and stroke.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

mattoc pro 2. 40/80 psi with irt. rebound +0-2. When compressed fork about 1cm and lift front theres top out like on the movie. When pushed deeper than 1cm theres no top out clunk. Anybody know fix for this?

- air valve adjusted, air spring fills properly. Before use made air spring service with grease only
- no pressure builded up in lowers
- no pressure builded up in damper

Rebound on +3 make it quiet, but even mattoc guide tells to use +0-2 on rebound for my weight 70kg.


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

I have a magnum pro 27.5 @ 140mm but intend on using it with a 29er 2.4 wheel. Any reason I should opt/wait for the Mattoc 2 Pro 27.5+/29 version?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

nikon255 said:


> mattoc pro 2. 40/80 psi with irt. rebound +0-2. When compressed fork about 1cm and lift front theres top out like on the movie. When pushed deeper than 1cm theres no top out clunk. Anybody know fix for this?
> 
> - air valve adjusted, air spring fills properly. Before use made air spring service with grease only
> - no pressure builded up in lowers
> ...


Sounds odd.
Can you check the damper oil level, and reset it at full extension?
It could be that the damper was closed up slightly compressed, so it's actually under slight vacuum at full extension.
This would unbalance the air springs initial small stroke rebound response.
But as soon as enough stroke has pushed oil past the piston the rebound pressure counters it and controls it correctly.

Other things that can unbalance it:
Vacuum in the lowers when bolting the air shaft without fully extending the lowers.
Poppet valve position, can cause air chambers to not fill equally.
Bad fitting pump, can have the same symptom as poppet valve where it doesn't fill equally.

None of the above would cause the rebound knocking on small initial stroke though.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

May you are right. Made damper rebuild and top out sound is gone. Had only RS 2,5wt oil. Now I can hear rebound damping hiss on this small stroke even when rebound totally backed off. Last time bike was carried upside down for few days, maybe thats the reason? Shouldnt it bleed the damper during usage?


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## scar4me (May 16, 2010)

nikon255 said:


> May you are right. Made damper rebuild and top out sound is gone. Had only RS 2,5wt oil. Now I can hear rebound damping hiss on this small stroke even when rebound totally backed off. Last time bike was carried upside down for few days, maybe thats the reason? Shouldnt it bleed the damper during usage?


Yes, the damper is open bath so the air can travel around if not stored upright.
But it does self bleed the air up to above the top piston without much movement (e.g. 1 or 2 strokes).
The whole point of the closed cell foam above the compression damper is to compensate for the shaft displacement so you can have minimal air in the damper anyway.

That oil might be the problem! 
RS 2.5wt only has a cST of 10.75, and standard mattoc damper oil is cST 15.
So it could well be that your oil weigh is that little bit too light for the shimstack making it noisy.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Im only 150lbs. Even when rebound backed off feels like it could be faster (on stock oil). We'll see. Anyway need to buy proper oil. I hope 10,75 cSt wont blow up the damper, right? 

With hearing hiss I meant even 1cm of stroke is damped. Before service there was no damping hiss, so it was undamper and this causes knock.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

*Updated air piston*

Could somebody tell me whether the green sticker on the box with the text "accepted" means an updated air piston or is this just something coming from QC or customs?

Also, when changing pressure of the main or IRT chamber, does one first deflate both chambers or can they be altered individually?


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Inflate the irt chamber to the required pressure first, then the main air chambers.
Pretty sure the green sticker means the the air piston is the newer version.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Im only 150lbs. Even when rebound backed off feels like it could be faster (on stock oil). We'll see. Anyway need to buy proper oil. I hope 10,75 cSt wont blow up the damper, right?
> 
> With hearing hiss I meant even 1cm of stroke is damped. Before service there was no damping hiss, so it was undamper and this causes knock.


Change to the newer seals and your rebound will speed up.

Seriously.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I have to wait till new seals will pop up in european stores.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> I have to wait till new seals will pop up in european stores.


Why wait?

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Kiwiplague said:


> Inflate the irt chamber to the required pressure first, then the main air chambers.
> Pretty sure the green sticker means the the air piston is the newer version.


Thanks for the reply.
Just to be sure I understand this correctly: 
After initial setup, when making small adjustments to the air pressure of either the main or IRT chamber, one has to start from empty again?

Also, the person that had contact with Hayes about the updated piston wrote about a green 'dot' on the label. Mine has a large green sticker with the text 'accepted' printed on it. Is this indeed the same?


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Why wait?
> 
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once


The website will tell you exactly how much shipping is. I've got a lot of other projects ahead of coils unfortunately.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Too bad. How is coil according to stock dorado spring? I'd like to know opinion of experienced guy


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Mac1987 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> Just to be sure I understand this correctly:
> After initial setup, when making small adjustments to the air pressure of either the main or IRT chamber, one has to start from empty again?


What you don't want is the IRT piston to move when inflating the chambers. That means the pressure in the IRT needs to always remain higher than in the main chamber so the IRT piston will always be fully extented.

For instance say your main pressure is 55psi and IRT is 110. It the doesn't matter if you first change main chamber to 60 psi or the IRT to 105 PSI. Pressure in the IRT will always be higher, the IRT piston will stay fully extended and the pressure in the chambers will be exactly what you put in.

However. Say you have 55 PSI in both the IRT and the main chamber (not a very useful pressure distribution, but just to explain). So say I would want the main chamber to have 60 PSI and the IRT 120. If I would first increase the main chamber to 60 PSI the IRT volume would reduce and main chamber would increase. If you would then put 120PSI in the IRT chamber the piston would extend back again, main chamber volume would decrease and it's pressure would not be the 60 PSI you wanted any more but higher.

So you always want to make sure the IRT pressure is higher than main chamber pressure and then the order of changing pressure doesn't matter as long if the above condition is met. If you inflate the fork with IRT the first time you start with the IRT to make sure the IRT piston is fully extended and stays there during inflation.

That's the way I reckon it works, Dougal or Mullen can probably confirm.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Too bad. How is coil according to stock dorado spring? I'd like to know opinion of experienced guy


Softer and more sensitive initial rate. Firmer mid stroke with better support. End about the same.

Small bump response is ridiculous with the new seals.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?


----------



## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

phreeky said:


> Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?


I've done exactly that, just had to make sure the fork was perpendicular to the ground so that I could get an accurate measurement on the oil height. Having any sort of tilt is going to make measuring the height a bit tricky.


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

CS645 said:


> What you don't want is the IRT piston to move when inflating the chambers. That means the pressure in the IRT needs to always remain higher than in the main chamber so the IRT piston will always be fully extented.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


Ok thanks, seems logical.
However, would increasing the pressure in the IRT chamber not also increase pressure in the main chamber, since the IRT is pressing against the main?


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Mac1987 said:


> Ok thanks, seems logical.
> However, would increasing the pressure in the IRT chamber not also increase pressure in the main chamber, since the IRT is pressing against the main?


Not if the pressure in the IRT was already higher before, because then the IRT is already fully extended and is pushing against it's stop and won't extend further by increasing pressure so won't reduce volume of the main chamber.


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Well I'm impatient, I just did it. There was def too much in there, now getting full travel.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

phreeky said:


> Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?





phreeky said:


> Well I'm impatient, I just did it. There was def too much in there, now getting full travel.


No issue at all. Both times I had an overfull damper it was because of migration from the bath oil. Both times I didn't have time to fully service the fork, so I opened the damper as you did, dumped the damper oil and refilled to the correct height. As soon as I could after - a few days - I dropped the lowers and added bath oil.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Mine also sucked in almost all bath oil. Wtf?


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Well I'm planning on doing a lowers service shortly anyway, already have the dust seals sitting here. However this brings me to my next question - if that happens, which seal is letting it past, and therefore which one do I buy?


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

nikon255 said:


> Mine also sucked in almost all bath oil. Wtf?


well that's why Manitou's new guidance is 7.5ml of bath oil. I haven't tried replacing the rebound seal head but I haven't had issues recently.


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once


£35 posted to the UK


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Softer and more sensitive initial rate. Firmer mid stroke with better support. End about the same.
> 
> Small bump response is ridiculous with the new seals.


Dougal, any news on when the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29er will be available? Showing on the website as updated but have not seen it posted any where for sale. Seems like everyone is clearing out 2017 models, assuming to make room for this.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

POAH said:


> £35 posted to the UK


Mine arrived from shockcraft this evening, 10,- euro's postage to the Netherlands. That's about the same as inter Europe.

Now I can install the seals on vacation after-all! :thumbsup:


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

My 26" Expert came with a travel spacer kit, and to convert to 27.5 it came with the HBO cone, but it also needs a spacer on the bottom of the rebound shaft, which is a larger diameter, so the spacer won't fit. Well I forced one on but it stretches it a bit and doesn't snap into place like on the air shaft. Is there a specific spacer to convert Expert to 27.5? Or, has anyone just drilled out one of these travel spacers to fit the rebound shaft?


----------



## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

fsrxc said:


> My 26" Expert came with a travel spacer kit, and to convert to 27.5 it came with the HBO cone, but it also needs a spacer on the bottom of the rebound shaft, which is a larger diameter, so the spacer won't fit. Well I forced one on but it stretches it a bit and doesn't snap into place like on the air shaft. Is there a specific spacer to convert Expert to 27.5? Or, has anyone just drilled out one of these travel spacers to fit the rebound shaft?


I have the same fork and also converted it to 27.5. Had a similar concern to you regarding the spacer on the rebound shaft after looking at the diagram that shipped with the fork. After consulting the guru's in this thread i got the impression a spacer is only required on the bottom of the air shaft and the hbo cone swapped out to convert from 26" to 27.5". This is what i did to both of my mattocs and have not had an issue with either.


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Could someone perhaps verify that this green sticker indicates the updated air piston?


----------



## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


----------



## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LaXCarp said:


> How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.
> 
> The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.
> 
> I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


An easier option than changing the shim stack is to use a thinner oil in the damper.

I would also try the new seals as they should be lower friction.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

LaXCarp said:


> How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.
> 
> The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.
> 
> I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


Id recommend to check if airspring leaks into lowers. If not, reshim compression and maybe get irt. It allows bigger sag with more supportive midstroke. If you check mattoc guide it suggest +1 click of compression for 77kg rider for descending. So only option for such a light rider is reshim and maybe irt, and btw lube properly lowers. It will change much more than thinner oil or new dust seals.

Edit: forgot about rebound. Reshim also recommended to speed it up. It could be overdamped in compression and rebound.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.
> 
> The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.
> 
> I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


Where have you set the rebound? Are you sure it's not packing down with such a low spring PSI?


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Im 70kg got 40/80psi with irt and rebound totally backed off.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.
> 
> The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.
> 
> I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


First step is the new low friction seals. You'll be amazed how much these will change the fork.

Second step is compression damper shims. I can give you some direction there. But you need to do the seals first.

The stock oil in these is thin enough and the ports big enough that with LSC open if you have a stiff fork then it is friction, not damping, causing the problem. There's no real advantage to thinner oils and they're difficult to find.

The air spring on these actually works better with less travel. It gives you a bigger negative chamber which helps small bumps. Don't fit IRT until you've got the base tune sorted and working.

I plan to get Mrs Dougal onto a Mattoc, but I need to get creative with steerer tubes first.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal, may you know if new mattoc familiy gets better lower damper sealing to prevent sucking in bath oil? Do you sell full service kit with all orings etc for mattoc? Just got information that in Poland new dust seals will be available at the end of september haha


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

2018 Mattoc Exploded Diagrams

Mattoc Comp 29+ 110
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNeW9keEV1Tlk2Ymc/view

Mattoc Pro 29+ 110
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNWlJfanFfcmxadXM/view

Mattoc Comp 26 & 27.5 100
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNMDktaV9VNzN5S3c/view

Mattoc Pro 26 & 27.5 100
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNVVQyYlpIQVdBMWs/view


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Dougal, may you know if new mattoc familiy gets better lower damper sealing to prevent sucking in bath oil? Do you sell full service kit with all orings etc for mattoc? Just got information that in Poland new dust seals will be available at the end of september haha


I don't know if they've changed the lower seal. I don't disturb parts like that on new forks unless there's a problem and it'll be a while before I upgrade my own.

Interestingly I've never seen oil migration into the damper. I run very different oils that are obvious when mixed. 
I have had mates forks (who rides maybe 10-20x more miles than me) run out of bath oil. But none was in the damper. What happens is bath oil provides a thin film on the stanchions which wipes upwards and is lost once outside the fork. But it happens slow enough that no obvious film is left.

A few hundred thousand movements (guessing) and it's obvious how much is missing.

Which is one more reason why people who ride more often need to do lower leg service more often.

This same guy rides enough that he degrades the mattoc damper oil over a year. Something I almost never see in a fork and only see in rear shocks of those who work them very hard.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

LaXCarp said:


> How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.
> 
> The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.
> 
> I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.


What happens if you drop the pressure below 22--does it bottom out a lot?I'm 140 lbs, only a few rides so far, 160mm travel. Started at 40 psi, now down to 35. All settings fully open. Still not using the last 25mm of travel (low-skilled riding with aggressive intent). Limited experience with other contemporary longish-travel forks--but this one feels incredibly plush to me. I heart it. I also run as low as 10 psi in my front tire--the low tire pressure makes a massive difference in ride quality to me.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I used to think that I just wasn't pushing hard enough to bottom out, in fact not more than 140mm (mine is set to 160mm) - on the rare occasion I'd mess up a jump and hit nose down I'd get another 10mm or so out of it and so assumed it was just HBO etc doing its job. And then the other day I popped the damper opened, measured and it was too high (admittedly I didn't let the oil "air" and the bubbles all escape).

I dropped the level a bit, and finally with all of the air out of the fork I could actually get full travel. It was simply over-filled from factory, something that seems quite common.

I'm not a little unsure whether I've removed too much oil, so I probably should pull the damper and let it sit for a while before re-measuring. Rebound adjustment is definitely effective however it's too hard to judge compression adjustments just bouncing the fork. Would not letting it sit before adjusting the level have made it too far out of whack?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

hey guys is there some trick to airing the Mattoc 2 Pro up? when I have the fork upside down and the shock pump is connected, and I pump it up to say 60psi, I can compress the fork normally, but as soon as I remove the shock pump, the fork becomes impossibly stiff, like it has 3 times as much air in it or something

i swear I remember reading something about this but the thread is so big I can't find it again


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> hey guys is there some trick to airing the Mattoc 2 Pro up? when I have the fork upside down and the shock pump is connected, and I pump it up to say 60psi, I can compress the fork normally, but as soon as I remove the shock pump, the fork becomes impossibly stiff, like it has 3 times as much air in it or something
> 
> i swear I remember reading something about this but the thread is so big I can't find it again


Well yeah. 60psi is a lot for these forks.

When you connect the pump it connects positive and negative chambers so the fork can be easily compressed at like 1/5th it's normal spring rate. When you remove the pump it works normally.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Well yeah. 60psi is a lot for these forks.
> 
> When you connect the pump it connects positive and negative chambers so the fork can be easily compressed at like 1/5th it's normal spring rate. When you remove the pump it works normally.


I appreciate the reply - according to the air chart it actually says I should be at 65psi at my weight
it must not be connecting the chambers because even at 80psi, the fork is really easy to compress, and of course gets nearly impossible to compress once the shock pump is removed (I tried 2 different pumps, too)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> I appreciate the reply - according to the air chart it actually says I should be at 65psi at my weight
> it must not be connecting the chambers because even at 80psi, the fork is really easy to compress, and of course gets nearly impossible to compress once the shock pump is removed (I tried 2 different pumps, too)


How much is the push-rod in the valve extending? If it wasn't connecting positive and negative then it wouldn't become easier to compress with the pump on.

Have you ridden it?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> How much is the push-rod in the valve extending? If it wasn't connecting positive and negative then it wouldn't become easier to compress with the pump on.
> 
> Have you ridden it?


looks like it extends about 1.5mm past the valve. is that too far? I had it in for warranty work, then aired it up to 60 psi and it was fine for several rides before reaired it and had this issue, now at the same psi it feels almost rigid

I found what I had read a while ago, someone having the same issue, but I don't fully understand what the solution is, because I have no clue what they are referring to when they use the word "poppet"

https://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/blog/manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues.html

EDIT: I'm an idiot - i misunderstood what you wrote about how the pump being connected reduces the spring rate, and that is normal behavior. i just had the PSI way too high for my weight. reducing it and the fork is acting normal again. thank you for the responses!


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I don't know if they've changed the lower seal. I don't disturb parts like that on new forks unless there's a problem and it'll be a while before I upgrade my own.
> 
> Interestingly I've never seen oil migration into the damper. I run very different oils that are obvious when mixed.
> I have had mates forks (who rides maybe 10-20x more miles than me) run out of bath oil. But none was in the damper. What happens is bath oil provides a thin film on the stanchions which wipes upwards and is lost once outside the fork. But it happens slow enough that no obvious film is left.
> ...


Left drained damper oil for few days cuz of my lazyness. Now there I can see 2 different oils. First thicker on the bottom, for sure sucked in supergliss and stock green above. This oil worked for 15hr max, so its new. Theres around 7ml of supergliss according to what drained from lower damper leg.

So I guess its ur first time when you see bath oil in mattocs damper  Do you know what kind of seal is in rebound damper assebly of mattoc pro and how to disassemble that? This time used 7ml for bath and hope it won't recur.


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

Is IRT available for the Magnum Pro? 

I have IVA but it doesn't provide enough mid stroke support. I set air to 40psi which gives good small bump compliance. If I use all the spacers I can get better midstroke support but still not enough. Also I cannot get full travel even with HBO off and all spacers. Seems like IRT would help resolve my issues.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Left drained damper oil for few days cuz of my lazyness. Now there I can see 2 different oils. First thicker on the bottom, for sure sucked in supergliss and stock green above. This oil worked for 15hr max, so its new. Theres around 7ml of supergliss according to what drained from lower damper leg.
> 
> So I guess its ur first time when you see bath oil in mattocs damper  Do you know what kind of seal is in rebound damper assebly of mattoc pro and how to disassemble that? This time used 7ml for bath and hope it won't recur.


I need to go mix some supergliss and Maxima 85-150 to see how it looks now.

You can change the wiper seal (which preferentially seals oil in, rather than out) in the damper cap for an oring which will seal both ways. I haven't yet done it because it hasn't been an issue for me. Size is 10x3 metric.



devnull said:


> Is IRT available for the Magnum Pro?
> 
> I have IVA but it doesn't provide enough mid stroke support. I set air to 40psi which gives good small bump compliance. If I use all the spacers I can get better midstroke support but still not enough. Also I cannot get full travel even with HBO off and all spacers. Seems like IRT would help resolve my issues.


Yes IVA doesn't provide more mid-stroke support. It provides more end-stroke support. For more mid-stroke (without going to IRT) you can take the oring off the IVA piston to give you more air volume and retune to slightly higher air pressure.

But first check damper oil if you can't get full stroke. Pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I should finally have my IRT to install tomorrow night.

My Mattoc is currently setup with 150mm travel, AVA as linear as possible, running 45psi and typically use 140mm or so of the available travel.

I have started to desire a bit more mid level support - and am aware that the IRT should help me with this.

Any tips for pressure I should start off with? Also for assembly I assume just let air out, remove AVA, add some slickoleum to the IRT, install, and off I go?

Thanks!


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I´ve also had what i would think is ingestion of bath oil into the damper. I got less and less travel from the fork. I tried checking that the negative chamber was equalized, but that seemed fine. Removed all the air and could not compress the fork all the way. Pulled the fork apart, saw nothing in the air spring. Unfortunately i never measured the oil height, but I just change the oil and reset the oil height. The fork is working well again, with full travel. I rode the fork quite a lot without servicing the damper, I would guess at least 150h (probably more), during this time I did the lowers a couple of times. 

I don't consider it a big problem. I will simply change the oil in the damper and reset the oil height more often.


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Yes IVA doesn't provide more mid-stroke support. It provides more end-stroke support. For more mid-stroke (without going to IRT) you can take the oring off the IVA piston to give you more air volume and retune to slightly higher air pressure.
> 
> But first check damper oil if you can't get full stroke. Pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand.


I can get full travel if I don't use all the IVA spacers.

The Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 boost for is supposed to be quite close to the Magnum as I understand it. So I'm wondering if I can order the IRT and try to install it in my Magnum.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes, you can. I have IRT in Magnum Pro and it works super well.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

So I guess that begs the question.... why come out with an almost identical version of the Magnum in the Mattoc chassis? Is there some difference that I am missing that the Mattoc will come with over the Magnum? Don't get me wrong, already saving up my pennies for one once they are released.

EDIT:
OOOOOHhhhhhhhh... I just went to their site for the first time since the information was released and the Magnum now falls under a "Legacy Model" with them going back to six main models.... 
Markhor - Replacing the Minute and Marvel it looks like, Dedicated XC fork
Machete - Dedicated PLUS Tire fork, more on the XC side
Mattoc - AM/FR/Plus (+) fork
Mastodon - Fat Tire fork


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

006_007 said:


> I should finally have my IRT to install tomorrow night.
> 
> My Mattoc is currently setup with 150mm travel, AVA as linear as possible, running 45psi and typically use 140mm or so of the available travel.
> 
> ...


be sure you air up the IRT side first, and always keep it 10-20 psi higher than the main air chamber, or it will act weird.

also, the suggested air pressure chart that comes with the IRT is wayyyy off. on the normal air spring chart, i should be running 65psi, but the IRT says to run over 100 psi in the IRT spring and like 60 in the main. that results in a wayy too stiff spring that is impossible to compress even halfway.

i am now running my psi in the IRT the same as my old air pressure before installation, and the main chamber is 20 psi lower than the IRT pressure. i may go even lower, but i'm still re-dialing in my compression settings, so it's too early to say


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> I´ve also had what i would think is ingestion of bath oil into the damper. I got less and less travel from the fork. I tried checking that the negative chamber was equalized, but that seemed fine. Removed all the air and could not compress the fork all the way. Pulled the fork apart, saw nothing in the air spring. Unfortunately i never measured the oil height, but I just change the oil and reset the oil height. The fork is working well again, with full travel. I rode the fork quite a lot without servicing the damper, I would guess at least 150h (probably more), during this time I did the lowers a couple of times.
> 
> I don't consider it a big problem. I will simply change the oil in the damper and reset the oil height more often.


I've just mixed up 2cc Supergliss with 10cc Motorex 2.5wt and 10cc Maxima 85-150 (two different beakers).
The results are really interesting. Initially I could see the swirl marks from the thicker Supergliss. But an hour later the fork oils have completely absorbed the Supergliss. They look like beakers containing only new and clean oil!



devnull said:


> I can get full travel if I don't use all the IVA spacers.
> 
> The Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 boost for is supposed to be quite close to the Magnum as I understand it. So I'm wondering if I can order the IRT and try to install it in my Magnum.


IVA isn't for everyone. In fact it's probably for no-one except those who read all the marketing bollocks about "bottomless tokens".
To disable the IVA simply take the oring off the piston.



gregnash said:


> So I guess that begs the question.... why come out with an almost identical version of the Magnum in the Mattoc chassis? Is there some difference that I am missing that the Mattoc will come with over the Magnum? Don't get me wrong, already saving up my pennies for one once they are released.
> 
> EDIT:
> OOOOOHhhhhhhhh... I just went to their site for the first time since the information was released and the Magnum now falls under a "Legacy Model" with them going back to six main models....
> ...


Yep. Magnum name is gone (again) and they're all called Mattoc now. It's kind of funny that the Magnum name has been used 3x by Manitou and never stuck around for more than one model change. 1995, 2001 and 2016.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Oil mixing photos on Instagram here:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BXyyfEHFz87/

Also here:








You can just see the swirls of thicker Supergliss when stirred or shaken. When left to sit it's pretty much invisible. These were just shaken/swirled.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Is there an official name or part # for the new mattoc seals? I'm in the USA, when i search for manitou seals here, only the older evil genius seals come up


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> Is there an official name or part # for the new mattoc seals? I'm in the USA, when i search for manitou seals here, only the older evil genius seals come up


Part Number 141-34000 https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Part Number 141-34000 https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


awesome, thank you again, Dougal!


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable. 

Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


You need a new LBS. That is unacceptable.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Very ugly behaviour from your LBS. Did they use original Manitou tool? Perhaps the orientation of the tool in wrench is important to reduce the flexing?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


That's annoying!

I use a 0,5 inch (I think) wrench extention. You can place it inside the slot of the mattoc cassette tool so it won't squeeze together and slip when you put torque on it.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

They busted it they should pay for the repair.



devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Hi,
Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
Can't find it anywhere.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Aglo said:


> Hi,
> Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
> Can't find it anywhere.


Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

gregnash said:


> Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.


Also if I'm not mistaken the pro 2 is the 2017 model. The 140mm 29er is 2018 and just called pro I think without the 2. But yeah might take a while still.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


What lbs is that : ? tell us, and don't go back


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Always place the slot/opening on that cassette tool at the opposite side while torquing so it doesn't close/spread...never had a problem like that


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Dougal...*

When is the coil "iva" going to show up, see some pics this week : )?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

gregnash said:


> Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.





CS645 said:


> Also if I'm not mistaken the pro 2 is the 2017 model. The 140mm 29er is 2018 and just called pro I think without the 2. But yeah might take a while still.


Damn it, think I'm going to buy a kayak in the mean time ...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

arnea said:


> Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.


Fox 34MM foam rings will work.

Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


Sorry to hear about that. Do they stock Manitou products? Perhaps contacting Manitou can force the LBS to do something.

Go buy the following or make sure the LBS has these parts. 
-6mm allen 3/8 drive socket. 
-18" long 3/8 drive extension. 
-8mm socket or wrench or a 4mm allen

Here's what you do. Pull it back apart to the stage where you need to remove the stanchion nut/cap. Make sure all pressure is released. Remove the IRA completely. Tape the 6mm socket to the extension. Feed it down the top and it should lock into place. Turn it either direction to make sure the entire shaft rotates. Now take the 8mm socket/wrench or the 4mm allen and place it at the bottom where you removed the lower legs. Turn the 6mm socket counterclockwise and it will unscrew the 2 halves. Be careful that there's a small spring between the two shafts. You should be able to pull the lower air shaft out. Now, you can try to use a standard cassette tool to remove the stanchion nut. If not then you'll have to send it to Manitou or devise some way to remove it. If you're feeling adventurous you can drill two holes into the cap on opposite sides from each other. Insert some bolts into the holes and use a screwdriver for leverage to turn the stanchion nut/cap. Or simply drill the two holes and use an adjustable pin spanner wrench to remove the cap/nut.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

devnull said:


> So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.
> 
> Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.


That's bloody terrible. I've never had a Mattoc end-cap tight or had issues with the tools flexing. Sounds like incompetence.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Fox 34MM foam rings will work.
> 
> Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.


Too much $ on manitous part and most riders won't use them anyway. Also doesn't help oem (which is growing). You wouldn't like the rise in msrp if the did it

It's really easy to modify a 8mm socket and a normal cassette tool to work perfectly. Unfortunately, even with the correct tools, end users will screw it up.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.


Manitou foam rings (dark grey) are better than everyone elses. They'll suck up and hold virtually their own volume in oil. I don't see any issues using RS 35mm rings or Fox 34mm, but the Manitou ones are better.
I'm clearing out Travis 34mm seals which have the dark grey foam rings, but haven't got spares yet.



Aglo said:


> Hi,
> Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
> Can't find it anywhere.


Some of the new models aren't available yet. We're still waiting on the 27 Boost 160mm Mattoc. Early September is the latest update. The 140mm versions all ship as 120mm and need spacers removed internally.



J: said:


> When is the coil "iva" going to show up, see some pics this week : )?


Oh yeah, that. Hoping to have some progress on Double Negative McLeod this week and that's all.



Vespasianus said:


> Fox 34MM foam rings will work.
> 
> Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.


I think it would just push up the price and the average owner would still lose them before service time. Like car wheel locks except worse because the tools can't be stored in the bike.


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

Need help setting up my buddy's Magnum Pro which seems to be quite similar to the Mattoc. He has the IVA cap. We adjusted it to all spacers are below the seal or o-ring. Feels fairly linear but maybe we'll just remove that o-ring entirely if need be. So my first question is were we supposed to put oil in the upper part of the leg before reinstalling the IVA? A little bit of oil did come out. 

Manitou's set up instructions kinda suck. I don't really know which way is max or min for the settings. I'm thinking counter clockwise is min and all the way clockwise is max? Turning the black IPA doesn't seem to do much. Maybe I'm not compressing the fork quick enough though. Does it adjust HSC? Also from fully counter clockwise turning it clockwise it clicks twice and then gets really stiff and there's no really discernible clicks? Is this normal?

LSC does nothing except fully clockwise where it gets very stiff and feels like it's locking out the fork. Some people have said it's related to where the IPA/black knob is but I find it acts fully independent of it. Some people said if you had the black IPA knob fully counterclockwise then the LSC has no effect? Is that the way it's supposed to be? 

Setting air pressure. Using Manitou's guidelines my friend runs 60psi at 160lbs and barely gets 10% sag. We dropped it to 40psi and it gets about 30% sag. Should I try Dougal's method. Set dials to fully clockwise and rebound off and find the best air pressure that absorbs high speed chatter? 

Currently the set up is LSC 1 click from fully counter clockwise and same with IPA/black knob. HBO fully counterclockwise. Rebound 3 clicks from fast. PSI 40lbs and all spacers under IVA o-ring. The bike eats big hit well but vibrates terribly on small trail chatter. We've tried the black IPA knob in all positions and it doesn't make much difference. Maybe rebound is too fast?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

mrfat,

No oil in the air spring.

Add spring and reduce rebound damping. For that range of psi, full fast or one click in. This will make a huge difference on the fast chatter. Once you get the spring close, fine tune by making small, 1-2psi, changes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mrfat said:


> Need help setting up my buddy's Magnum Pro which seems to be quite similar to the Mattoc. He has the IVA cap. We adjusted it to all spacers are below the seal or o-ring. Feels fairly linear but maybe we'll just remove that o-ring entirely if need be. So my first question is were we supposed to put oil in the upper part of the leg before reinstalling the IVA? A little bit of oil did come out.
> 
> Manitou's set up instructions kinda suck. I don't really know which way is max or min for the settings. I'm thinking counter clockwise is min and all the way clockwise is max? Turning the black IPA doesn't seem to do much. Maybe I'm not compressing the fork quick enough though. Does it adjust HSC? Also from fully counter clockwise turning it clockwise it clicks twice and then gets really stiff and there's no really discernible clicks? Is this normal?
> 
> ...


Use my method for air pressure. It's about response frequency to slow speed bouncing.
LSC and HSC piggy back off each other. The HSC preloads the shims (which is why it gets firmer with more clicks) and the LSC is the bypass around them.

You cannot compress a fork fast enough to test damping by pushing up and down. You need to go slam bumps.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I´m looking for some pointers on how to improve my setup. I ride in Sweden and riding here is a bit different than most other places. I almost only ride all natural hiking trail. We don't have a lot of altitude here and all altitude one get is by climbing the same technical natural hiking trails. There is never anything built, like jumps and such. It is all just sketchy hucks to flat, natural gaps and very short steep gnarly stuff.

I ride my Mattoc set to 140 mm on an Orange Five. I got the IVA set to the middle as delivered. I´m about 75 kg (165 lbs), or about 80 kg (175lbs) with gear and hydration pack. For this I ride a whooping 80 psi, which seem to be quite a lot. I ride the really high pressure to get lots of support. I got the rebound at six clicks from min, HSC one click from min and LSC one click from min. I really dont want more HSC since I dont like the platform feel. My fork currently feel pretty good for what I ride, but there is definitely a lack of traction in high speed situations. The IRT seem to be something that could benifit me. I´ve also been thinking about if it would be possible to re-shim the damper. Would it be possible to get a firmer compression without having it like a platform as it is now?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> I´m looking for some pointers on how to improve my setup. I ride in Sweden and riding here is a bit different than most other places. I almost only ride all natural hiking trail. We don't have a lot of altitude here and all altitude one get is by climbing the same technical natural hiking trails. There is never anything built, like jumps and such. It is all just sketchy hucks to flat, natural gaps and very short steep gnarly stuff.
> 
> I ride my Mattoc set to 140 mm on an Orange Five. I got the IVA set to the middle as delivered. I´m about 75 kg (165 lbs), or about 80 kg (175lbs) with gear and hydration pack. For this I ride a whooping 80 psi, which seem to be quite a lot. I ride the really high pressure to get lots of support. I got the rebound at six clicks from min, HSC one click from min and LSC one click from min. I really dont want more HSC since I dont like the platform feel. My fork currently feel pretty good for what I ride, but there is definitely a lack of traction in high speed situations. The IRT seem to be something that could benifit me. I´ve also been thinking about if it would be possible to re-shim the damper. Would it be possible to get a firmer compression without having it like a platform as it is now?


Couple things to try.

First thing I'd try is to set the IVA full volume, and you can even remove the spacers from under the piston for another 3cc each. Then work on the rebound, speed it up. You air setting isn't that high for a 140 fork. Your pump gauge could be as much as 20psi off. I found the stock IVA setting way too progressive.

Try swapping lsc for hsc. Reduce lsc and add hsc. It sounds counter intuitive, but you need the hsc to keep the fork riding high in the fast stuff and to control the wheel. Get this notion of platform out of your head. Your traction problems are most likely a combination of spring, rebound, and hsc, in that order.

I've recently switched to IRT and won't go back.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks for the input. I will try changing the IVA to more volume. I think my current rebound with the pressure I was running was a good compromise. When I was running less rebound I would get deflected on big hits. Perhaps that will improve with more air volume thou? I think my pump reads low values if anything, but manometers are a tricky breed. I dont have much LSC to remove, but I guess I will give it a go as well.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Exactly, with a more progressive spring, less vol, you end up with a compromised lsr setting to control the whole stroke, too much lsr and still not hsr. The too much lsr can kill traction on small/med bump.

Removing one clk of lsc and adding one of hsc, is what I referring to. Keep playing, but just keep in mind small changes can go along way, and you need to fully soak in the feedback you get from the change before reaching for the dial or pump again. Be methodical.

On the flip side, you could be over damped on comp. How's it ride with hsc full soft? I'm guessing too soft.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

The air volume/rebound sounds like something that could be giving me problems. Would the best place to start be just to adjust the VIA to max volume, or should I remove all the tokens as well?

I had to check my compression settings. I should probably rather say that I´m running two clicks HSC from min and one click LSC from min. I will go out for runs tomorrow and then experiment with HSC. I´ve actually done very little to experiment with the fork. I just thought of the HSC as a pedal platform as set it low enough that I was not bothered by it in that way.

So if I understand the Manitou dynocharts correct, have the LSC open will give me sort of a linear compression that will tune via the HSC?

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MC2-User-Guide.pdf

It looks like removing that one click of LSC and adding HSC could actually make the damper ramp more towards the end storke?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm not sure what my air pressure would be if at 140mm (mine is set to 160mm), however at a similar weight I run closer to 40psi so 80psi sounds quite extreme. I also don't use IVA so that could play a role.

It sounds to me like you're a little too concerned about the fork feeling overly soft. Try not to test it too much in the garage and just bouncing around, do some experimentation on the trails. Try dropping the air spring a fair bit (maybe start with 60psi) and let the fork sit just a little into its travel when you put a bit of weight on the front, and just enough rebound damping so that it feels like it won't unsettle you, with the LSC and HSC close to or fully open. If you don't give suspension any "droop" (i.e. no sag), if the rebound is too slow or you're running too much HSC damping then traction will suffer - your wheel will keep leaving the ground.

You really need to get the spring side of things sorted before you try dialling in your damping.

Additionally playing with IVA or IRT without getting the fork close to right before hand is also over-complicating - you need to get the basics right first, and it's a more than capable fork without those extra adjustments.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I have actually ridden the fork lots, it is only that I suck as setup up my stuff, and that I really hate certain things about setups. I would rather ride a rigid fork, than one that dives in steep or under braking. My pressure seem to be way of the Manitou recommendations still...

So, anyway. I opened the IVA and it turned out that I only had one black spacer above the seal. So i removed that, and then all the spacers out of the IVA. I figured that the pressure in the fork would push the seal part into place at the top of the air chamber. Perhaps I should remove the washers and stuff that dangles of the rod in the IVA?

I set the fork up at 75 psi, speeded up the rebound to 2 clicks from full fast, set LSC to min and HSC to two clicks from min. Since the ride was wet, it was hard to evaluate properly. The initial impression is good. The fork feels more linear over bigger bumps. Since it was wet the speeds was lower and I still don't know how it will be to hit stuff at full speed. Traction was also hard to evaluate since it was set. The clearly rebounds past the ride position when flat landing and similar, but perhaps that is not so bad?


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Use my method for air pressure. It's about response frequency to slow speed bouncing.
> LSC and HSC piggy back off each other. The HSC preloads the shims (which is why it gets firmer with more clicks) and the LSC is the bypass around them.
> 
> You cannot compress a fork fast enough to test damping by pushing up and down. You need to go slam bumps.


So turn everything to stiff?

One thing I noticed is the fork doesn't get full travel. I weigh a good 70lbs more and when I try to compress the fork there's 15mm of travel remaining. We completely let the air out and compressed it and it achieves full travel. Air it up though and it doesn't get full travel. HBO was set full counter clockwise. I pulled the damper to check the fluid level and I pulled out 2ml so that it's pretty close to 77mm from the top. Aired things back up but still leaves 15mm of travel. Not that big a deal since it eats big hits nicely though.

The air valve at the bottom of the fork sucks though. So I have to flip the bike upside down to air it up then pull on the fork to make sure it's at full extension before removing the pump. Gotta remove the gps off the handlebars and the seat and grips get dirty as a result. Mediocre design IMO.

Another interesting thing is if you ride the bike then get off it and push the o-ring down and then lift the wheel off the ground it shows another 10mm of travel. Does that indicate too much negative air pressure? The valve core plunger sticks out 1mm past the schrader valve stem which I believe is the correct height. Perhaps it needs to stick out more? So de-air it and remove the IVA cap and try to adjust it out further? What size allen would I need for that? I'm using a Fox shock pump that has the recommended attachment that was previously posted in this thread. We pull the forks out to full extension before airing it up which makes it a two man job and a PITA. So why does it not return to full extension after getting off the bike? Or is that by design and you have to actually fully unweight the fork by lifting the wheel off the ground for it to return to full extension. This has me thinking the air spring might have some issue.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

mrfat said:


> So turn everything to stiff?


I haven't used this method, but to me it seems logical that you set all dampers to least resistance to feel only the spring.



mrfat said:


> The air valve at the bottom of the fork sucks though. So I have to flip the bike upside down to air it up then pull on the fork to make sure it's at full extension before removing the pump. Gotta remove the gps off the handlebars and the seat and grips get dirty as a result. Mediocre design IMO.


Manitou changed the air piston and lubricant. Old pistons had one glide ring and used oil on top of piston. New pistons have two glide rings and use Slickoleum for lubrication. With the Slickoleum you do not have to turn the bike upside down, because it will not flow to negative chamber. At least I have not encountered any problems pumping the fork when bike is on its wheels. I will just rise handlebar before I disconnect the pump to extend the fork.



mrfat said:


> Another interesting thing is if you ride the bike then get off it and push the o-ring down and then lift the wheel off the ground it shows another 10mm of travel. Does that indicate too much negative air pressure?


It might also be stiction of the seals + low air pressure. Have you checked that there is oil in lowers? What oil do you use?


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

arnea said:


> I haven't used this method, but to me it seems logical that you set all dampers to least resistance to feel only the spring.
> 
> Manitou changed the air piston and lubricant. Old pistons had one glide ring and used oil on top of piston. New pistons have two glide rings and use Slickoleum for lubrication. With the Slickoleum you do not have to turn the bike upside down, because it will not flow to negative chamber. At least I have not encountered any problems pumping the fork when bike is on its wheels. I will just rise handlebar before I disconnect the pump to extend the fork.
> 
> It might also be stiction of the seals + low air pressure. Have you checked that there is oil in lowers? What oil do you use?


So LSC/HSC to full counter clockwise/soft but rebound should be fully closed/fast?

I used 7ml in each leg of Fox Gold. I also have some Mobil 1 0w20 that I used to use in Fox/RockShox forks but that seemed to cause more stichion.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

mrfat said:


> So LSC/HSC to full counter clockwise/soft but rebound should be fully closed/fast?
> 
> I used 7ml in each leg of Fox Gold. I also have some Mobil 1 0w20 that I used to use in Fox/RockShox forks but that seemed to cause more stichion.


All adjusters to full fast, including rebound. Fully closed rebound is slowest. I hope you have read this article: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

arnea said:


> All adjusters to full fast, including rebound. Fully closed rebound is slowest. I hope you have read this article: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup


It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?

I've tried Dougal's method with everything set to fast/stiff. For it to be decently smooth it's running maybe 30psi and about 44mm of sag. Right around 33% sag but that negatively effects the geo and steepens the HTA to 70 degrees.

Maybe it needs to be shimmed to his riding weight of 170? I'm gonna try my hefty ass at 240lbs and see if I can get it dialed in. Since he's 70% of my weight then I'm figuring 70% of the air pressure should be a close starting range.


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

Also a question about filling the fork. So say I invert it and I use an allen to depress the valve and collapse the fork to bottom out. Now with the valve depressed should I then pull the forks to full extension and proceed to air it up? Or after fully compressing it do I release the valve and then pull it to full extension? This creates a vacuum and the fork wants to retract so I have to hold it until the shock pump is connected. I presume it's causing a vacuum in the positive air chamber? What if I compress it fully then air it up then pull the legs to full extension before removing the pump? Ironically that doesn't seem to drop air pressure much so I'm wondering if that's an indication of something wrong.

It has a deadspot of around 7-10mm. Cycle the fork then get off the bike. Move the o-ring all the way down. Then pull on the handlebars so the wheel is off the ground. The fork extends another 7-10mm. Everything set to fast and I've even aired the fork to 100psi and it still does this though usually only 7mm of deadspot rather than 10mm when aired to 30 or 40psi. Is this an indication the positive air side is lower than the negative? Perhaps I need to adjust the air valve out more or remove the o-ring from the IVA.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I rode my fork in the dry today at it was very good. The change of settings is an improvement. With the old pressure and IVA tokens I would only bottom out the fork on flat landings. 

Now I use all the travel och bigger hits from normal riding. I got the Huck Bail Out set to max, so its not hard bottoms outs. Two clicks of HSC was probably the best settings. 3 clicks from min is more composed in fast downhill, but it will probably be too tiring to run for longer on the flat slower trails. The only thing that was worse was that the fork wallows a little more when it hangs up on stuff in really slow technical stuff.

I think I will try to go up a little in pressure again and see if that feels better.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mrfat said:


> It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?


Other way around. Closed = max damping. Open = min damping.



mrfat said:


> I've tried Dougal's method with everything set to fast/stiff. For it to be decently smooth it's running maybe 30psi and about 44mm of sag. Right around 33% sag but that negatively effects the geo and steepens the HTA to 70 degrees.
> 
> Maybe it needs to be shimmed to his riding weight of 170? I'm gonna try my hefty ass at 240lbs and see if I can get it dialed in. Since he's 70% of my weight then I'm figuring 70% of the air pressure should be a close starting range.


Try it again with all the damper dials set to open (fastest). Softest, not stiffest. 30psi is far too low.



mrfat said:


> Also a question about filling the fork. So say I invert it and I use an allen to depress the valve and collapse the fork to bottom out. Now with the valve depressed should I then pull the forks to full extension and proceed to air it up? Or after fully compressing it do I release the valve and then pull it to full extension? This creates a vacuum and the fork wants to retract so I have to hold it until the shock pump is connected. I presume it's causing a vacuum in the positive air chamber? What if I compress it fully then air it up then pull the legs to full extension before removing the pump? Ironically that doesn't seem to drop air pressure much so I'm wondering if that's an indication of something wrong.
> 
> It has a deadspot of around 7-10mm. Cycle the fork then get off the bike. Move the o-ring all the way down. Then pull on the handlebars so the wheel is off the ground. The fork extends another 7-10mm. Everything set to fast and I've even aired the fork to 100psi and it still does this though usually only 7mm of deadspot rather than 10mm when aired to 30 or 40psi. Is this an indication the positive air side is lower than the negative? Perhaps I need to adjust the air valve out more or remove the o-ring from the IVA.


Pump the fork up, pull it to full length and remove the pump. It's that simple. If the lower legs try to suck down then someone possibly put the fork together with the legs compressed which makes a vacuum in the lowers. The solution there is to loosen the foot bolts to let the pressure equalise. Then snug them back up.

If it settles lower after riding then you've likely got the older air piston or you need a new air-piston seal.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Bought a used Mattoc Pro with the IRT upgrade about a month ago. After dialing it in, it rides almost the same as my Marzocchi 350 NCR, which is to say really darn good and way better than my Pike even after I redid the damper shims on that fork. The Marzocchi has a longer A2C which slacks out my bike a tad a gives it the edge for DH runs while the shorter Mattoc keeps the bike a bit more nimble at lower speeds in the tight stuff. Other than that they're virtually identical, they stay up in their travel better than the Pike, have a nice comfy ride, and they won't bottom unless I mess up badly and over-jump to flat or something really dumb like that. Which happens more often than I'd like since the smoothness & control of the forks makes it feel like I'm not going as fast as I actually am.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aerius said:


> Bought a used Mattoc Pro with the IRT upgrade about a month ago. After dialing it in, it rides almost the same as my Marzocchi 350 NCR, which is to say really darn good and way better than my Pike even after I redid the damper shims on that fork. The Marzocchi has a longer A2C which slacks out my bike a tad a gives it the edge for DH runs while the shorter Mattoc keeps the bike a bit more nimble at lower speeds in the tight stuff. Other than that they're virtually identical, they stay up in their travel better than the Pike, have a nice comfy ride, and they won't bottom unless I mess up badly and over-jump to flat or something really dumb like that. Which happens more often than I'd like since the smoothness & control of the forks makes it feel like I'm not going as fast as I actually am.


Now you need to update the seals.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

mrfat said:


> It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?


Dougal already said that it is opposite. The logic is that the damper is valve that limits the oil flow. As you close the valve, it gets harder for oil to flow through it. It takes more force to move the oil. Therefore it slows down the rebound and makes harder to compress the fork. If you open up the valve (damper) oil can flow easier, rebound is faster, it takes less force to
compress the fork.

The other things you described (fork trying to collapse when you unair it and the 7-10mm dead zone) are not normal. Vacuum in the lowers might explain the collapsing, but I have no idea what might cause the dead zone. Very large friction somewhere? If not seals then perhaps something to do with bushings? If you unbolt the lowers are they sliding smoothly and easily? Or is there any binding?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, just did a quick ride after I replaced the seals on both Mattocs. WOW, that's a big difference! Much less dry feeling from the front and the whole bike feels more lively/active now. Also feels more similar now to the bump sensitivity of the McLeod in the rear. Have to do a longer ride to see if I have to make further adjustments to air pressure and damping. Used the Unior 1702 34mm seal press, that worked very fast and easy: Unior d.d. | Hand tools

My wifes Mattoc regained the topout click. So have to see if the little spring moved out of place again or if I did something else wrong with the reassembly. I didn't touch the damper though. I did put the new air piston in her's so that's fixed. (Mine turned out to have the new one already).

At first didn't understand how the spacers would reduce the negative chamber volume at increased travel, but now I get it. Would be nice to think about a way to adress that.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

CS645 said:


> My wifes Mattoc regained the topout click. So have to see if the little spring moved out of place again or if I did something else wrong with the reassembly. I didn't touch the damper though.


So first time I fixed this top out with damper service with oil change and "bleed". After some time riding made air spring service with air valve adjusting. After that its toping out again. I dont know if damper get air under rebound piston, but im sure cycled it few times upside down. Hold front brake, push and pull gently on handlebar like you want to check for bushing play. Does it clicks quietly?


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Other way around. Closed = max damping. Open = min damping.
> 
> Try it again with all the damper dials set to open (fastest). Softest, not stiffest. 30psi is far too low.


Rebound should be set to stiffest ie fastest(-). I think he's getting oil flow rate confused with what he feels is the compression speed or force as arnea explained below.



Dougal said:


> Pump the fork up, pull it to full length and remove the pump. It's that simple. If the lower legs try to suck down then someone possibly put the fork together with the legs compressed which makes a vacuum in the lowers. The solution there is to loosen the foot bolts to let the pressure equalise. Then snug them back up.
> 
> If it settles lower after riding then you've likely got the older air piston or you need a new air-piston seal.


I bet he uses the 4mm allen method to remove the air side. As such he probably did compress the fork. If you lack the thin walled 8mm socket then you can try to cycle the suspension as you air it up. There's also the zip tie method too but the seals on forks are very resilient and you may have difficulty pushing it into the lower leg. Either of those can help relieve the vacuum and you pull the fork to full extension before removing the pump and you shouldn't have the dead zone.

Also 30 psi is quite low. You may need to remove the o ring on the IVA as Dougal suggested. That gives you another 2" of volume as I believe there's still a white spacer above the seal.


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## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

Ok, so I am using the allen method on the air spring side and compressing the forks. I tried cycling the fork with the pump attached and it did reduce the deadspot to 4mm. Close enough. 

So all dials are set completely counterclockwise. Rebound is adjusted with dial facing me so it's rebounding as fast as possible. Aired it to 50psi and it felt pretty decent but my friend said that at higher speeds(20-30mph)9 it's rough over the trail chatter. Wasn't sure if the rebound was too high so I set 2 clicks slower. He said it didn't have much effect. Works well at slower speeds and for drops. Though on 3ft drops he's only getting 110mm of travel. Told him not to worry about it as you don't really want to be blowing through all your travel. If it works and eats the drop then don't worry about how much travel you are getting. In fact it's probably better it doesn't eat full travel as he's getting better geo. 

I haven't pulled the IVA apart yet to remove the o-ring. Since small bump compliance at lower speeds under 15mph is fine I'm wondering if I should pull the o-ring though. Not sure how that will help with trail chatter at higher speeds. 

I'll probably just have to ride the bike myself to try and diagnose why higher speed trail chatter feels rough. Unfortunately the bike is a size or two too small for me. I may try Dystopism's settings as he seems similar in weight. 

At least I know where to start


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

nikon255 said:


> So first time I fixed this top out with damper service with oil change and "bleed". After some time riding made air spring service with air valve adjusting. After that its toping out again. I dont know if damper get air under rebound piston, but im sure cycled it few times upside down. Hold front brake, push and pull gently on handlebar like you want to check for bushing play. Does it clicks quietly?


I'm going have to try later. I won't excluded that I reassembled the fork too quickly and created a vacuum in the lowers. Gonna check that later this week.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

My fork has that "deadspot" at the top of travel, however I *think* it only developed it since I pulled the damper and reduced the oil level to get full travel. I'm wondering if I need to ensure the fork is extended whilst the damper is tightened back down?

I'll probably check that out tonight. It hasn't particularly bothered me since I'm running a much longer fork that standard for my bike anyway, but it would be nice to fix still.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

mrfat said:


> Ok, so I am using the allen method on the air spring side and compressing the forks. I tried cycling the fork with the pump attached and it did reduce the deadspot to 4mm. Close enough.
> 
> So all dials are set completely counterclockwise. Rebound is adjusted with dial facing me so it's rebounding as fast as possible. Aired it to 50psi and it felt pretty decent but my friend said that at higher speeds(20-30mph)9 it's rough over the trail chatter. Wasn't sure if the rebound was too high so I set 2 clicks slower. He said it didn't have much effect. Works well at slower speeds and for drops. Though on 3ft drops he's only getting 110mm of travel. Told him not to worry about it as you don't really want to be blowing through all your travel. If it works and eats the drop then don't worry about how much travel you are getting. In fact it's probably better it doesn't eat full travel as he's getting better geo.
> 
> ...


When I dident get full travle is changed the oil in the damper and now the fork is working much better. I still dont know if there was too much oil there, pressure build up or what. I would also recomend getting some decent tools. A friend just wrecked his fork by trying to use the hex key in valve method.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.

I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc. 

Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

xeren said:


> Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.
> 
> I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.
> 
> Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!


That's just kinda the progressive nature of the "air spring". It would be cool if someone modified the IVA or IRT with a coil spring instead of spacers or air pressure.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

ghoti said:


> That's just kinda the progressive nature of the "air spring". It would be cool if someone modified the IVA or IRT with a coil spring instead of spacers or air pressure.


That don't seems to be hard to do, and you can even add some sort of preload mechanism just as easy.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

phreeky said:


> I'll probably check that out tonight. It hasn't particularly bothered me since I'm running a much longer fork that standard for my bike anyway, but it would be nice to fix still.


Tried it, no change.

Maybe it's some vacuum in the lowers. That can wait until I do a lower leg service though as it's probably due to be done anyway.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

xeren said:


> Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.
> 
> I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.
> 
> Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!


I have a few Minute Pros with the MARS spring system and a Mattoc Pro with IRT, mine feel fairly similar, well, as similar as a 100mm and 160mm travel fork will get. My Minute has a medium coil spring and 100psi in the air chamber, Mattoc is 60psi in main chamber and 100psi in the IRT. I give up some small bump suppleness when riding at lower speeds but that's not really important to me, my forks are optimized for dive & bottom out resistance since I need them to stay up in their travel and not bottom when I get carried away doing stupid stuff. 150lbs rider, so definitely on the stiff side.

As for the dampers, the Minute with the stock shim stack has more platform than the Mattoc according to the dyno graphs from Manitou.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.
> 
> I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.
> 
> Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!


No Mattoc or Magnum had the MARS system. The Mattoc Comp (OEM) had a TS air system.

I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.


So it's the wiper seals you're talking about?

So much so that if I have a new set of the 'old' seals already I should avoid using them?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phreeky said:


> So it's the wiper seals you're talking about?
> 
> So much so that if I have a new set of the 'old' seals already I should avoid using them?


Yep. Otherwise you'll have about 2 years more riding to wear them out.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Dougal said:


> No Mattoc or Magnum had the MARS system. The Mattoc Comp (OEM) had a TS air system.
> 
> I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.


Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool? 
Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?



CS645 said:


> Used the Unior 1702 34mm seal press, that worked very fast and easy: Unior d.d. | Hand tools


 Where did you manage to get one? Their site isn't really cooperative at the moment.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

The new seals are flanged, I got mine in with some PVC pipe without too much difficulty, likely would have easier with a seal driver, but I've never had to use one yet on all the various forks I've had over the years.

To echo what others have said, the new seals are very slippery, that's for sure. One thing I found when reinserting the stanchions was how much easier it was to get them in, whereas with the old seals it was a lot trickier.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Ordered them. 

Might use a piece of PVC as well, or source a seal press locally.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Stratus said:


> Ordered them.
> 
> Might use a piece of PVC as well, or source a seal press locally.


I'm not sure where you are located but if it's US or Canada, I would highly recommend the seal driver from Real World Cycling. They ship fast and are very knowledgeable. If you're thinking "I don't need to buy a driver for $XX" then I won't try to convince anyone otherwise.

But to me, the value of having the right tool is well worth it.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I got my seals from Shockcraft yesterday. I think it was 40 euros total with shipping and local VAT. I made an installation tool from PVC pipe and used stanchion as a guide for installation. It was very easy to install. Some pics of the pipe - it is 40mm outer diameter and one end is wider so you can join the pipes. I cut away the part where the seal was and trimmed the pipe so that when I put the pipe over the stanchion there was enough stanchion left to go into the bushing in lowers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool?
> Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?


New seals are flanged and go in nicely. We've got Manitou and RWC seal drivers here. RWC is fantastic for the flangeless, but for flanged seals even a socket will work.

We were the first to get them at Shockcraft and yes we post to europe.


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I have a mattoc tool kit I will sell, I only used one of the tools once. I have an add on pink bike. PM me


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

This weekend I did a full service on my well-used 26" Mattoc Expert with IRT. I installed new RWC seals that I've had on hand a good long while - since before the new ones from Manitou were available.

Manitou's service video and written instructions are pretty clear that you set the damper oil height when the rebound rod is fully extended. Which, interestingly, I only have just realized is not the case any time you have the lowers installed unless you happen to run a 26" fork at 170mm. Otherwise, what happens is that you've got some lesser amount of max travel, which brings the rebound rod in by that amount. In my case, I run 140mm on my Blur TR.

I totally have done that in the past. I had poor performance from the fork and took the damper cover off while the fork is on the bike, and then removed damper oil which I believed to be overfilled. But 80mm down (for Expert, or 77mm down for Pro) is not right when the rebound knob is pushed in 30mm.

...Anyway, I'm expecting a lot different performance now. The seals seem to be much lower friction and I have the correct damper fluid level.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Stratus said:


> Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool?
> Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?
> 
> Where did you manage to get one? Their site isn't really cooperative at the moment.


https://www.wheelies.co.uk/p104206/Unior-Fork-Seal-Installation-Tool-1702.aspx


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ColinL said:


> This weekend I did a full service on my well-used 26" Mattoc Expert with IRT. I installed new RWC seals that I've had on hand a good long while - since before the new ones from Manitou were available.
> 
> Manitou's service video and written instructions are pretty clear that you set the damper oil height when the rebound rod is fully extended. Which, interestingly, I only have just realized is not the case any time you have the lowers installed unless you happen to run a 26" fork at 170mm. Otherwise, what happens is that you've got some lesser amount of max travel, which brings the rebound rod in by that amount. In my case, I run 140mm on my Blur TR.
> 
> ...


Off to watch the videos - I wonder if I did something wrong on my 150mm mattoc.......


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

been a long time since I've looked at videos and manual, but the oil charts clearly instruct setting height with lowers installed.

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Oil-Height-Diagram_new-REV2.pdf


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The difference in oil level between shaft fully extended and legs on doesn't matter. Even set at full extension you can easily fully compress the shaft.

The only issue you may have is setting oil level for shorter travel and then running longer (i.e. not enough oil) which can cause foaming.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

ktm520 said:


> been a long time since I've looked at videos and manual, but the oil charts clearly instruct setting height with lowers installed.
> 
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Oil-Height-Diagram_new-REV2.pdf


Hmm, perhaps I had a bit too much beer while doing the service. The video is here: 




The legs are installed when setting damper oil height. Which, as Dougal and others pointed out, does mean that the rebound rod is all the way in.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> The legs are installed when setting damper oil height. Which, as Dougal and others pointed out, does mean that the rebound rod is all the way in.


Legs should always be installed with damper rods fully extended. Otherwise you pull a vacuum in the lower legs which screws with setup and function.

Pushing the rebound rod in is a check to ensure you have full stroke without excessive pressure buildup. The rod needs extended again before reassembly.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height. 

From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:

10x12x0,2
10x21x0,2
8x11x0,25
8x17,5x0,1
--------------
10x25x0,15


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

CS645 said:


> I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height.
> 
> From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:
> 
> ...


huh- so the expert damper uses 2 different internal diameter shims, 8 and 10mm?

that looks like a (relatively) complicated shim stack- a speed shim, and then a spacer for the platform shim, then a smaller OD shim to prevent it from blowing off too big? not sure what "10x25x0,15" refers to - the blowoff on the back side of the damper?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height.
> 
> From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:
> 
> ...


Some have 8x17.5x0.1mm and 8x11x0.25mm shims on the piston face. Later ones don't. Those are not adjustable by the dials.

The 10mm ID shims which are preloaded by the HSC dial are:
10x21x0.2mm and 10x12x0.2mm

25mm sounds like the blowoff. I haven't got that one written down.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Some have 8x17.5x0.1mm and 8x11x0.25mm shims on the piston face. Later ones don't. Those are not adjustable by the dials.
> 
> The 10mm ID shims which are preloaded by the HSC dial are:
> 10x21x0.2mm and 10x12x0.2mm
> ...


interesting - so some of the later ones just have the larger blowoff shims, and then when the HSC dial is turned up, preloading them, they act more like an XC stack with a good amount of platform? or does the 12mm OD shim make the 21mm shim act differently?

oh, by chance do you know what shims the pro damper uses? I can check myself when I have time, but if you know off the top of your head, i would be interested to hear


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

xeren said:


> huh- so the expert damper uses 2 different internal diameter shims, 8 and 10mm?
> 
> that looks like a (relatively) complicated shim stack- a speed shim, and then a spacer for the platform shim, then a smaller OD shim to prevent it from blowing off too big? not sure what "10x25x0,15" refers to - the blowoff on the back side of the damper?


Yes, I looked at mine, then decided to leave the compression stack(s) alone.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> oh, by chance do you know what shims the pro damper uses?


Same for Mattoc Pro and Expert.

The Plus sized Magnums run another, additional, compression shim.

Keep in mind Manitou are continually developing and assessing tunes. So they can change with different delivery dates.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Shimstack 2014 Mattoc Expert *
(Dougal has indicated that later models can have different stack configurations).

Ok some information on the compression shimstack (unfortunately someone nicked the battery out of my caliper, so I have to approximate it from the analog scale).

I can confirm it was the shimstack on the left in this 2014 Mattoc expert. Changed it to the shim order on the right, as suggested by someone to reduce HSC damping (this is my wifes Mattoc and I suspect the original HSC configuration is a bit too much for her weight):

Original: changed to:
10x12x0,2 10x21x0,2
10x21x0,2 10x12x0,2
8x11x0,25 8x17,5x0,1
8x17,5x0,1 8x11x0,25
----------- --------- piston
10x25x0,15 10x25x0,15

If I understand the workings of the stack correctly this changed stack order will reduce the preload on the 21mm shim and creates room between the piston ports and the 17.5mm shim, thus reducing HSC. Probably oversimplifying things so better take this with a grain of salt.

The stack side of the piston has a about 1mm high ridge with an internal diameter of about 19mm.

That means that the 17,5 shim falls inside it and the 21mm shim on top of it. Also the 11mm shim does not block any piston ports in this new order.

The shaft on the other side of the stack has a ledge with a 12mm diameter and about 0.5mm thickness. The shaft itself has a 16mm diameter.

I had hoped to use my torquewrench to measure the torque on the compression assembly, but it already came lose with the minimum 6Nm of the wrench. So guessed it and torqued it to about 3-5Nm. Hope that is ok?

Now trying to get the air out of the oil before reassembling.

Stack side of the piston:








Other side of the piston (the 10x25x0,15 shim sits on top of this side):








Shaft with the 12mm diameter ledge:








Ok, fork reassembled. Dials work properly. I think the HSC dial has about 5 positions now. Can't give a ride report till about 1.5 weeks. I'll see how this goes while waiting for a better solution from Dougal.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

twodogsfighting said:


> https://www.wheelies.co.uk/p104206/Unior-Fork-Seal-Installation-Tool-1702.aspx


Thanks!
Seals from Shockcraft should be underway.

Nice work CS645!


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

CS645 said:


> *Shimstack 2014 Mattoc Expert *
> Original: changed to:
> 10x12x0,2 10x21x0,2
> 10x21x0,2 10x12x0,2
> ...


I'm afraid that your shim stack keeps compression ports open all the time. 11mm OD shim can't cover the holes, so it leaves a gap under 17.5mm shim. On platform shims, there will probably almost no change at all.

I tried yesterday to remove the platform shim (21mm OD), fork was much smoother, but of course I lost HSC adjustability (HSC dial preloads that shim). In the end, I've put everything back as I was afraid of destroying the 17.5x0.1 shim to handle all compression damping alone.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

I noticed that the newest version of the Mattoc (debuted at eurobike) is capable of running 170mm of travel in the 27.5 version. Any idea how this was done and is it likely to be a backwards compatible modification or part?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Kiwiplague said:


> I noticed that the newest version of the Mattoc (debuted at eurobike) is capable of running 170mm of travel in the 27.5 version. Any idea how this was done and is it likely to be a backwards compatible modification or part?


I'll let you know when I get mine.

This one was released in July (don't you read my emails!) but I think just shipping now. Boost only, not plus and fits up 2.6" rubber.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I'll let you know when I get mine.
> 
> This one was released in July (don't you read my emails!) but I think just shipping now. Boost only, not plus and fits up 2.6" rubber.


Usually I do, must have missed that bit, probably as soon as I saw the boost part lol. Having just recently gotten a new wheel set I'd be seriously pushing my luck with the better half if I suddenly told her I needed a new fork!

As an aside, the new seals are working nicely, I'm certainly pleased with them.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

The old non-boost fitted 2.6" just fine with some low-profile 2.8s sneaking in. Now you need the boost non-plus to hit 2.6"? That seems odd.

2017:
100 MATTOC 27.5 x 2.4” 63mm
110 MATTOC 27.5 x 2.6” 67mm

2015:
MATTOC 12.0mm 68mm

Of course max diameter is now in the spec and was previously missing.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

RoboS said:


> I'm afraid that your shim stack keeps compression ports open all the time. 11mm OD shim can't cover the holes, so it leaves a gap under 17.5mm shim. On platform shims, there will probably almost no change at all.
> 
> I tried yesterday to remove the platform shim (21mm OD), fork was much smoother, but of course I lost HSC adjustability (HSC dial preloads that shim). In the end, I've put everything back as I was afraid of destroying the 17.5x0.1 shim to handle all compression damping alone.


Yes, I know. I understood from Dougal his previous reply that some Mattoc don't even have the 8x17,5x0,1 so figured that bypassing it would not be a major drama. It's only a temporary thing, to see how the fork feels.

I will soon be buying a useful collection of shims and mess around with it a bit. I'm afraid it will be on my own Mattoc though, because I'm not sure my wife let me near her's again anytime soon.

The ABS+ tune guide helps tremendeous in giving an idea what effect each shims has (although it still depends a lot on the damper layout of course).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> Yes, I know. I understood from Dougal his previous reply that some Mattoc don't even have the 8x17,5x0,1 so figured that bypassing it would not be a major drama. It's only a temporary thing, to see how the fork feels.
> 
> I will soon be buying a useful collection of shims and mess around with it a bit. I'm afraid it will be on my own Mattoc though, because I'm not sure my wife let me near her's again anytime soon.
> 
> The ABS+ tune guide helps tremendeous in giving an idea what effect each shims has (although it still depends a lot on the damper layout of course).


The 8mm ID shims do not need to cover the ports, you get a seal with the 10mm ID shims (assuming you don't have the hsc adjustment set up to give you float, which you shouldn't, especially on a mattoc).

Use the 8mm shims to control port size when you are tuning(adjusting diameter rather than thickness, though you can change thickness as well as a more advanced tuning method). You can add shims under the larger 8mm ID shims to give a little free bleed under the 8mm stack.

Use the 8mm stack to control low and mid speed damping(by controlling port size and bleed), the 10mm stack mostly controls high speed.

These same concepts are used in tuning the McLeod.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> The 8mm ID shims do not need to cover the ports, you get a seal with the 10mm ID shims (assuming you don't have the hsc adjustment set up to give you float, which you shouldn't, especially on a mattoc).


Yes I figured as much.



mullen119 said:


> Use the 8mm shims to control port size when you are tuning(adjusting diameter rather than thickness, though you can change thickness as well as a more advanced tuning method). You can add shims under the larger 8mm ID shims to give a little free bleed under the 8mm stack.
> 
> Use the 8mm stack to control low and mid speed damping(by controlling port size and bleed), the 10mm stack mostly controls high speed.
> 
> These same concepts are used in tuning the McLeod.


Thanks a lot. I expect my riding to tweaking ratio will further deteriorate in the future! 

EDIT: interesting btw that in the ABS+ guide they don't seem to address any tuning by means of regulating port size by shim diameter. Or I'm overlooking it.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

First report from my wife after a week in the Alps; Massive improvement! 

Next step is to get an optimized compression tune beyond merely getting the HSC in the proper ballpark for her weight.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

There is a battle between my fork and shock - which one is more plush. For a long time the home-tuned Monarch outperformed the Magnum Pro. But the last move by Magnum changed the game. New low friction seals are really wonderful.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

Probably should have just ordered the new seals from NZ instead of waiting for a local vendor to stock. But since I've waited this long I figure I'll keep on waiting lol.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ghoti said:


> Probably should have just ordered the new seals from NZ instead of waiting for a local vendor to stock. But since I've waited this long I figure I'll keep on waiting lol.


Any shop the uses bti as a supplier (most do) can order them right now. They are in stock


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghoti said:


> Probably should have just ordered the new seals from NZ instead of waiting for a local vendor to stock. But since I've waited this long I figure I'll keep on waiting lol.


Did I mention we can fit the low friction seals and 250cc of Supergliss in the same satchel for the same freight cost?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I still can't find the Mattoc 120/140 27.5+/29 on the European union, seriously looking at the Magnun 27.5+ 120/140.

Can someone tell me how does the Magnum compares to the Mattoc, and if I can use the 27.5+ with 29er wheels?

Thx.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I have Magnum Pro 27.5+ 120/140. It takes 29x2.4 tire no problems. There is 12mm clearance to arch as required by user manual. I have not checked how much clearance to crown there is at full compression. Perhaps you can use even wider tyre. 

I do not know what is the difference with new Mattoc. There were some hints that something has changed internally and the clearence requirement is lowered and you can run larger tyres safely. Perhaps Dougal knows. Or ask from Manitou tech support.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

arnea said:


> I have Magnum Pro 27.5+ 120/140. It takes 29x2.4 tire no problems. There is 12mm clearance to arch as required by user manual. I have not checked how much clearance to crown there is at full compression. Perhaps you can use even wider tyre.
> 
> I do not know what is the difference with new Mattoc. There were some hints that something has changed internally and the clearence requirement is lowered and you can run larger tyres safely. Perhaps Dougal knows. Or ask from Manitou tech support.


At full compression of what? The fork travel? I also heard people warning that the tire will flatten out. But that happens at the contact point with the ground and not at the arch so I don't know what they are talking about.

I got a Mag Pro 27.5+ because it was 140mm of travel. 29er 2.4 tires run fine here too even with 26mm IW rims. Of course it may depend on what rim width and tire you run along with the pressure but the 27.5+ seems fine for most 29er combos.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the answers guys, but just to be clear, what tire brand do you guys run, because my Maxxis 2.4" on my i29 rims are clearly smaller than my Schwalbe 2.35" on my i26 rim.

It would be nice if I could find some literature for tire clearance on the Magnum.

Would also be nice to know if besides the IRT anything more changed, like chassis and internals.

Thx.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

ghoti said:


> At full compression of what? The fork travel? I also heard people warning that the tire will flatten out. But that happens at the contact point with the ground and not at the arch so I don't know what they are talking about.


Yes. The problem is that when you are running tire with large diameter, it might clear the arch, but when you fully compress the fork (e.g. bottom out at large drop) the tire might contact the crown. You will most likely go over the bars and hurt yourself.



Aglo said:


> Thanks for the answers guys, but just to be clear, what tire brand do you guys run, because my Maxxis 2.4" on my i29 rims are clearly smaller than my Schwalbe 2.35" on my i26 rim.
> 
> It would be nice if I could find some literature for tire clearance on the Magnum.
> 
> Would also be nice to know if besides the IRT anything more changed, like chassis and internals.


I have tried several 57-622 and 60-622 ETRTO tires on WTb : Continental X-King Protection 2.4, Bontrager XR2 2.35, Maxxis Forekaster 2.35. I think that even largest 2.4 tires on wider rim should be ok.

And I also installed IRT.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Aglo said:


> Thanks for the answers guys, but just to be clear, what tire brand do you guys run, because my Maxxis 2.4" on my i29 rims are clearly smaller than my Schwalbe 2.35" on my i26 rim.
> 
> It would be nice if I could find some literature for tire clearance on the Magnum.
> 
> ...


The mattoc 27.5+/29 received new seals, IRT standard, and I believe a small redesign of the lowers (might be thinking of something else, don't have the info in front of me).

The internals were redesigned to give a few mm more clearance at bottom out for to make sure it's safe with 29" wheels/tires (sounds like it would be simple, but the HBO circuit means both the rebound and compression damper needed changed)

For the most part, it's the same fork as the magnum 27.5+. 2.4 is the widest I would run on a magnum and I would check tire clearance at bottom out. You can throw a small spacer under the bottom out bumper if you are worried about it. If you find s good deal on one, I'd just buy it.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> The mattoc 27.5+/29 received new seals, IRT standard, and I believe a small redesign of the lowers (might be thinking of something else, don't have the info in front of me).
> 
> The internals were redesigned to give a few mm more clearance at bottom out for to make sure it's safe with 29" wheels/tires (sounds like it would be simple, but the HBO circuit means both the rebound and compression damper needed changed)
> 
> For the most part, it's the same fork as the magnum 27.5+. 2.4 is the widest I would run on a magnum and I would check tire clearance at bottom out. You can throw a small spacer under the bottom out bumper if you are worried about it. If you find s good deal on one, I'd just buy it.


Good to know. Still waiting to see what the prices are going to be like, but if I do come across a Magnum 27.5+ I may pick it up. Currently I am running WTB i29s with Vittoria GOMA 2.4s that measure out at about 2.5 on the i29s. If really the only concern on bottom-out with larger tires then that may not be a problem for me because I think I maybe bottom out once a year on a massive hit. Dont have a lot of huge drops or hucks around here that I ride.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm currently running a 2.5wt minion on 35mm internal rims on a regular mattoc (2014 date of manufacture) i get the feeling i could be in for a nasty surprise if i manage to bottom out hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the reply mullen119.
I wont be running it at 140mm travel so I wouldn't have a problem on adding the spacer.

I need to know what will be the price for the new Mattoc, so that I can decide if getting a Magnum is a good deal.
Aside for the base price of the Magnum, I would have to add the the price of getting the IRT, as the IRT is one of the reasons I want the Mattoc, other things that I also want, but that are no so important, are the new seals and the Hexlock SL.
So getting the Magnum plus these extras might not be such a good deal.
Decisions, decisions...


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## kilobitti (Apr 26, 2015)

I have a Mattoc 27.5" Expert with a slight problem; after compressing, there is a distinct knock as the fork starts moving back upwards. The knock can also be felt in the handlebars. A quick demonstration-> 




Servicing the lower legs didn't affect the problem. It only disappeard when I took the fork to my LBS for a full service, but there was no comment on what was causing the sound.

And now 2 months after the service the knock is back again. I wouldn't like to take the fork back in for a full overhaul every 6 weeks. Any ideas?


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

looks like no rebound damping at all. try to crank up the rebound?


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

kilobitti said:


> I have a Mattoc 27.5" Expert with a slight problem; after compressing, there is a distinct knock as the fork starts moving back upwards. The knock can also be felt in the handlebars. A quick demonstration->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok. hope its better this way...

looks like no rebound damping at all. try to crank up the rebound?


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

*26->27.5 160mm travel, Mattoc I*

It sounds like I'm supposed to change the internals (cone, spacer) to run a 27.5 wheel on my 26" original Mattoc Pro, even if I'm staying at 160mm travel. Is that right? My feeble brain can't understand how that could make a difference without changing the travel.

Is there an official or unofficial recommended service interval? I don't see a mention in the service guide.


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## kilobitti (Apr 26, 2015)

OrenPerets said:


> looks like no rebound damping at all. try to crank up the rebound?


Thanks for your input!

I like my forks quite fast as it helps to keep the tires on the ground in fast stuff. However, I've tried different settings and it doesn't solve the issue :/


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

kilobitti said:


> Thanks for your input!
> 
> I like my forks quite fast as it helps to keep the tires on the ground in fast stuff. However, I've tried different settings and it doesn't solve the issue :/


Can't tell in video, is the sound at top-out or when fork changes direction from compression to rebound?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## kilobitti (Apr 26, 2015)

croakies said:


> Can't tell in video, is the sound at top-out or when fork changes direction from compression to rebound?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


It's when the fork changes direction.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Inspect compression midvalve spring on rebound piston. Mine mattoc pro has similar issue. Got it warrantied and recieved new one.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

thedrizzle said:


> I'm currently running a 2.5wt minion on 35mm internal rims on a regular mattoc (2014 date of manufacture) i get the feeling i could be in for a nasty surprise if i manage to bottom out hard.


Are you running it 27.5" or 26"? By 27.5", I mean with the spacer thing installed?

I'm running 27.5x2.6 DHF at 160mm, I've bottomed it out on some DH stuff and was fine. I've also run 27.5x2.8 Rocket Rons which are bigger again - very close to the arch. With the 2.8 I dropped pressure and pushed it right through the travel to ensure it wouldn't hit the crown, and it appears to me that with the fork setup for 27.5" that if the tyre clears the arch then it clears the crown, however setup for 26" tyres you'd possibly be in trouble.



phile said:


> It sounds like I'm supposed to change the internals (cone, spacer) to run a 27.5 wheel on my 26" original Mattoc Pro, even if I'm staying at 160mm travel. Is that right? My feeble brain can't understand how that could make a difference without changing the travel.


In 27.5" mode the lowers will no go all of the way up the stanchions - the top 10mm (plus a bit) will not get used. As mentioned earlier in this post, it's about ensuring that the bigger tyre doesn't contact the crown at bottom-out. Therefore if you leave the fork at max travel but swap between 26" and 27.5", you'll end up with 170mm and 160mm travel respectively.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The other thing to keep in mind with tyre clearance is wheel flex. Minimal clearance static can result in a buzz under hard compression as the wheel flexes upwards and/or sideways.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

phreeky said:


> Are you running it 27.5" or 26"? By 27.5", I mean with the spacer thing installed?
> 
> I'm running 27.5x2.6 DHF at 160mm, I've bottomed it out on some DH stuff and was fine. I've also run 27.5x2.8 Rocket Rons which are bigger again - very close to the arch. With the 2.8 I dropped pressure and pushed it right through the travel to ensure it wouldn't hit the crown, and it appears to me that with the fork setup for 27.5" that if the tyre clears the arch then it clears the crown, however setup for 26" tyres you'd possibly be in trouble.
> 
> In 27.5" mode the lowers will no go all of the way up the stanchions - the top 10mm (plus a bit) will not get used. As mentioned earlier in this post, it's about ensuring that the bigger tyre doesn't contact the crown at bottom-out. Therefore if you leave the fork at max travel but swap between 26" and 27.5", you'll end up with 170mm and 160mm travel respectively.


Yeah i am running the fork as 27.5" with the spacer and different HBO cone installed. Good to know i won't have issues bottoming out. Would like to try a 2.6 dhf but there is no chance i could continue to use the mucky nuts.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

thedrizzle said:


> Yeah i am running the fork as 27.5" with the spacer and different HBO cone installed. Good to know i won't have issues bottoming out. Would like to try a 2.6 dhf but there is no chance i could continue to use the mucky nuts.


I have a mucky nuts fitted! So yes, you can. I ride in dry conditions - the occasional rock will get stuck in the tyre and click off the mudguard, but otherwise it's fine. I did put a couple of extra holes in the guard for 2 more zip-ties to hold it tighter against the arch though.


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

phreeky said:


> I have a mucky nuts fitted! So yes, you can. I ride in dry conditions - the occasional rock will get stuck in the tyre and click off the mudguard, but otherwise it's fine. I did put a couple of extra holes in the guard for 2 more zip-ties to hold it tighter against the arch though.


Ok good to know. I have also drilled a couple of extra holes for two more zip ties. I get the occasional rock too, just didn't think it was possible to get a bigger tyre in there as the 2.5wt dhf is very tight.


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

So finally got a replacement cap and was able to remove the old one. One thing I noticed when I pulled the lower legs was the air side shaft was shorter even ehrn pulled to full extension. So here's what the air spring side looks like:







Is the white spacer backwards as the other side isn't like that? Should it even have that?







This pic shows 2 black spacers instead. Should I remove the white one and put in the two black spacers which I have? 







Lastly, is this seal supposed to be split?

I want the fork to have 140mm of travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

devnull said:


> So finally got a replacement cap and was able to remove the old one. One thing I noticed when I pulled the lower legs was the air side shaft was shorter even ehrn pulled to full extension. So here's what the air spring side looks like:
> View attachment 1158420
> 
> Is the white spacer backwards as the other side isn't like that? Should it even have that?
> ...


Which Mattoc again?


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Which Mattoc again?


It's actually the Magnum Pro 27.5+.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

devnull said:


> It's actually the Magnum Pro 27.5+.


Gotcha.

It looks like the white B/O spacer is upside down. Pull it off and see if it looks better up the other way. Right now it looks like the cap will hit the spacer and miss the bumper.

The 27+ fork uses a bigger B/O spacer and longer shafts than the 26/27" non boost Mattoc. The top-out spacers are right and the split glide ring on the piston is normal.


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## kilobitti (Apr 26, 2015)

nikon255 said:


> Inspect compression midvalve spring on rebound piston. Mine mattoc pro has similar issue. Got it warrantied and recieved new one.


Thanks for your suggestion! So apparantly I should remove the damper assembly, drain the oil, remove the piston using the same modified cassette tool? What should I look for to see if it works/doesn't?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Has anyone experienced the star nut slipping inside the steerer tube? I got a second mattoc for my wifes bike and haven't had any luck with this. In hindsight, this is why I got it so cheap. 

I have installed new star nuts, and also even the hope expander. I thought the hope expander would do the trick but no luck. Obviously I can call up Hayes and talk to them about it but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience.

I have tightening it down using some threaded rod, but that obviously isn't feasible in the field or long term.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

LaXCarp said:


> Has anyone experienced the star nut slipping inside the steerer tube? I got a second mattoc for my wifes bike and haven't had any luck with this. In hindsight, this is why I got it so cheap.
> 
> I have installed new star nuts, and also even the hope expander. I thought the hope expander would do the trick but no luck. Obviously I can call up Hayes and talk to them about it but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience.
> 
> I have tightening it down using some threaded rod, but that obviously isn't feasible in the field or long term.


Haven't heard of that. Did you check the ID of the steerer? It shouldn't really matter as star nuts are significantly wider than the steerer before install, just curious if it's off.

Definitely an odd problem.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

LaXCarp said:


> Has anyone experienced the star nut slipping inside the steerer tube? I got a second mattoc for my wifes bike and haven't had any luck with this. In hindsight, this is why I got it so cheap.
> 
> I have installed new star nuts, and also even the hope expander. I thought the hope expander would do the trick but no luck. Obviously I can call up Hayes and talk to them about it but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience.
> 
> I have tightening it down using some threaded rod, but that obviously isn't feasible in the field or long term.


That is wacky but I had a similar problem years ago with an old Judy. I ended up using a system with a rod that went all the way through the steerer tube and pulled from the bottom. Forget what it was called but I bet you can still find something like that on e-bay.

Was the fork used before?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

The rod thing, there is one from SRAM called Turncoat.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

so my mattoc knocked when top out and when rebound was set slowest. Manitou couldnt fix it so I got new one. The same model: red coloured pro 2 2015 my. This one doesnt knock when top out but knock like rifle when rebound set slowest. WTF is wrong with them?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nikon255 said:


> so my mattoc knocked when top out and when rebound was set slowest. Manitou couldnt fix it so I got new one. The same model: red coloured pro 2 2015 my. This one doesnt knock when top out but knock like rifle when rebound set slowest. WTF is wrong with them?


My computer has no sound so I can't here the sound. But when you get a replacement product and have a similar issue, it might not be the product but something else on your bike, could that be possible?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Has anyone experienced the star nut slipping inside the steerer tube? I got a second mattoc for my wifes bike and haven't had any luck with this. In hindsight, this is why I got it so cheap.
> 
> I have installed new star nuts, and also even the hope expander. I thought the hope expander would do the trick but no luck. Obviously I can call up Hayes and talk to them about it but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience.
> 
> I have tightening it down using some threaded rod, but that obviously isn't feasible in the field or long term.


Chances are you've got a headset issue that's putting way more vertical force into the bearings than normal. Like enough to push the stem up on the steerer.

The star nut is only for adjustment. It's redundant once the stem is tightened.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> My computer has no sound so I can't here the sound. But when you get a replacement product and have a similar issue, it might not be the product but something else on your bike, could that be possible?


Oh cmon. I have also RS Pike. Nothing knocks with it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> so my mattoc knocked when top out and when rebound was set slowest. Manitou couldnt fix it so I got new one. The same model: red coloured pro 2 2015 my. This one doesnt knock when top out but knock like rifle when rebound set slowest. WTF is wrong with them?


That shuffle at the start of the video. Is that you or the fork? It's difficult to see what's going on.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal, its about metal knocking. Not shuffling. Why when set slowest rebound every rebound move creates metal knock? Those fast movements in first half on video give this knocks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Dougal, its about metal knocking. Not shuffling. Why when set slowest rebound every rebound move creates metal knock? Those fast movements in first half on video give this knocks.


Metal knocking like shims slamming shut?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Unfortunately I dont know. Does yours do the same? Why is that, any solution? 

Tommorow I will post better vid.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nikon255 said:


> Oh cmon. I have also RS Pike. Nothing knocks with it.


So I listened you you video on an ipad. Just to make sure, at first, rebound is set full fast and you hear a slight knock with small movements. Than you set the rebound full slow and and you hear the whoosh sound (I think you are calling it a rifle sound). I can replicate that sound at full fast rebound in my mattoc if I try hard enough. But I am not sure if it my tire or the fork. The last sound, with rebound full closed sounds normal. It sounds like oil trying to flow through closed shims.

If you go one click in from full fast, what happens? Also, are you sure you are adding air to put chambers? When you attached a pump, and add air, leave the pump attached and pump the fork. It should feel very spongy. Push it down and remove the pump, the fork should stay were you pump it down.

What does it sound like when you ride it?


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Chances are you've got a headset issue that's putting way more vertical force into the bearings than normal. Like enough to push the stem up on the steerer.
> 
> The star nut is only for adjustment. It's redundant once the stem is tightened.


I don't think so as I have had it happen on 2 different frames with 2 different head sets and other forks have no issues with those same headsets. I think this issue is very indicative of why I got the fork so cheap.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> So I listened you you video on an ipad. Just to make sure, at first, rebound is set full fast and you hear a slight knock with small movements. Than you set the rebound full slow and and you hear the whoosh sound (I think you are calling it a rifle sound). I can replicate that sound at full fast rebound in my mattoc if I try hard enough. But I am not sure if it my tire or the fork. The last sound, with rebound full closed sounds normal. It sounds like oil trying to flow through closed shims.
> 
> If you go one click in from full fast, what happens? Also, are you sure you are adding air to put chambers? When you attached a pump, and add air, leave the pump attached and pump the fork. It should feel very spongy. Push it down and remove the pump, the fork should stay were you pump it down.
> 
> What does it sound like when you ride it?


You took wrong direction... When rebound set slowest and Im cycling fork every rebound creates metal clunck. If rebound set fastest everything is ok, so far.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I can't say for certain what is causing your headset issue, however if you're getting sufficient pre-load before tightening the stem bolts then it's not the steerer/star-nut interface that's the issue. Once the stem bolts are tight then, in theory, you can remove the top cap and the star-nut is redundant.

Clean the steerer/stem up to help prevent slip, and try some carbon/fibre gel which they normally use for carbon steerers to prevent slip. It's a bit like a grease with some gritty particles in it.


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## Griz77 (Sep 20, 2017)

devnull said:


> So finally got a replacement cap and was able to remove the old one. One thing I noticed when I pulled the lower legs was the air side shaft was shorter even ehrn pulled to full extension. So here's what the air spring side looks like:
> View attachment 1158420
> 
> Is the white spacer backwards as the other side isn't like that? Should it even have that?
> ...


devnull - just curious how you were able to remove the air shaft. I have the same issue in that the slotted cassette started to strip the air shaft assembly bolt. Worked the first service but started to strip on this last one. Wish I could blame it on LBS but mine was user error. The cassette tool I received from CRC looks nothing like the pics of the Mattoc tool kit, it is much longer so it flexes a lot when putting torque on it. It also seems to have much smaller splines than a normal cassette tool and has a lot of play when engaged. I'm hoping to try and modify a park tool tonight to get more bite.

Also, did you have to buy the entire air shaft assembly or were you able to just buy a new replacement cap assembly, the part that actually screws into the stanchions?

I'm also wondering how important greasing the air shaft seal is. On the first service, which really wasn't long ago, the only thing I had was Polylube which I used. I just received some SRAM butter, the new seals from Dougal, and was going to put Maxima 5wt Plush and Fox Gold in the lowers to try and get it really plush. Now I'm wondering if I can just skip regreasing the air shaft seal or perhaps go in through the top? I know polylube was a bad choice, but it was all I had at the time and couldn't find the m prep that Manitou previously recommended.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Griz77 said:


> devnull - just curious how you were able to remove the air shaft. I have the same issue in that the slotted cassette started to strip the air shaft assembly bolt. Worked the first service but started to strip on this last one. Wish I could blame it on LBS but mine was user error. The cassette tool I received from CRC looks nothing like the pics of the Mattoc tool kit, it is much longer so it flexes a lot when putting torque on it. It also seems to have much smaller splines than a normal cassette tool and has a lot of play when engaged. I'm hoping to try and modify a park tool tonight to get more bite.


If you're having trouble with your modified cassette tool just use an unmodified Park cassette tool. The one without a pin in the middle works.
You just have to remove any spacers present on the bottom of the air shaft and fully compress it.
That way you'll get maximum purchase.
On a different fork (an Xfusion) I've had the similar part not want to unscrew and a little penetrating oil (liquid wrench type stuff) did the trick.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ac1000 said:


> If you're having trouble with your modified cassette tool just use an unmodified Park cassette tool. The one without a pin in the middle works.
> You just have to remove any spacers present on the bottom of the air shaft and fully compress it.
> That way you'll get maximum purchase.
> On a different fork (an Xfusion) I've had the similar part not want to unscrew and a little penetrating oil (liquid wrench type stuff) did the trick.


I have had the same problem with the Manitou tool. I just use the park one now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I'm debating jumping into the Mattoc world by getting an older used 2015 Mattoc that looks like it just needs some TLC and not getting full travel. 

What parts would you suggest:
-New Seal Kit
-IRT upgrade
-Mattoc rebuild kit (seals redundant if getting new ones)

It's always a crapshoot with used and in the past I'd be better off paying once and getting new, but there is always that lure of finding diamond in the rough.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

ac1000 said:


> If you're having trouble with your modified cassette tool just use an unmodified Park cassette tool. The one without a pin in the middle works.
> You just have to remove any spacers present on the bottom of the air shaft and fully compress it.
> That way you'll get maximum purchase.
> On a different fork (an Xfusion) I've had the similar part not want to unscrew and a little penetrating oil (liquid wrench type stuff) did the trick.


devnull has Magnum and on Magnum this trick does not work. You cannot push the compression rod far enough to use the unslotted Park tool. I have Magnum, I tried it and it did not work. On the other hand the modified Park tool (I cut the slot using Dremel) worked nicely - it did not flex. I'm not sure, but perhaps it matters how the slot is aligned relative to wrench opening?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

ashwinearl said:


> I'm debating jumping into the Mattoc world by getting an older used 2015 Mattoc that looks like it just needs some TLC and not getting full travel.
> 
> What parts would you suggest:
> -New Seal Kit
> ...


If it has the original air compression rod assembly ("air piston"), Hayes/Manitou may send you the revised air rod for free. If it's not free, it's ~$90.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

ashwinearl said:


> I'm debating jumping into the Mattoc world by getting an older used 2015 Mattoc that looks like it just needs some TLC and not getting full travel.
> 
> What parts would you suggest:
> -New Seal Kit
> ...


Pro or Expert and what sort of ballpark price?


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## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

arnea said:


> devnull has Magnum and on Magnum this trick does not work. You cannot push the compression rod far enough to use the unslotted Park tool. I have Magnum, I tried it and it did not work. On the other hand the modified Park tool (I cut the slot using Dremel) worked nicely - it did not flex. I'm not sure, but perhaps it matters how the slot is aligned relative to wrench opening?


This is correct. I had to use Ghoti's method. Remove the top IVA cap unit. Use an allen socket, I think it was 6mm. With an 8mm socket or wrench hold the lower air valve and unscrew the air shaft. There's a small spring so be careful not to lose that. But after you separate the two pieces you can pull the lower shaft out and use a standard cassette tool to remove the nut. Then you can pull out the upper portion of the air shaft. My cap was so stripped though that I had to drill two holes into it and thread in some bolts. Then use a screw driver to get proper leverage to unscrew the cap. Contact Manitou if you need replacement parts.

I also noticed that on the black spacer the hole is towards the top. Mine is at the bottom so when the fork is fully extended it lines up with the hole for the airshaft. Or at least it theoretically should but that spacer rotates so I'm sure the hole is blocked one way or another. I'm not sure if that's going to effect anything.

However I'm still not getting full travel. Even aired 20lbs under and HBO fully counterclockwise I can launch it off a small 1ft kicker and still only get 118mm of travel.

*edit*
So I replaced the IVA with a standard air cap and now I can get fully travel and bottom out quite easily. I also had to run 15 psi more to get the same frequency response but sag is 33mm.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Expert
$150


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Expert
> $150


New seals and a rebuild(oil) are all that is likely needed. 2015 should have new air piston and rebound damper already and the IRT is a nice tuning option/upgrade, but it works fine without it.

I would buy it


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Expert
> $150


Must be that one on pinkbike out of bellingham

I was interested but the steertube isvut about 1/2 too short.

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2245800/

Totally worth it otherwise.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

ashwinearl said:


> Expert
> $150


Just buy it. You won't look back.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

phreeky said:


> My fork has that "deadspot" at the top of travel, however I *think* it only developed it since I pulled the damper and reduced the oil level to get full travel. I'm wondering if I need to ensure the fork is extended whilst the damper is tightened back down?
> 
> I'll probably check that out tonight. It hasn't particularly bothered me since I'm running a much longer fork that standard for my bike anyway, but it would be nice to fix still.


I still can't figure out this deadspot at the top of the travel. It's probably about 5mm or so. I've partially slid the lowers off and ensured the shafts are extended when tightening the bolts down, so it shouldn't be any vacuum in the lowers, and the negative air spring seems equalised as I can feel the diff with the pump attached and ensured that the fork was extended whilst removing the pump.

What else could it be? It doesn't seem to be sucking back into the travel, just that there's basically no resistance. I'm thinking of dropping the lowers this week and seeing if the deadspot is there just moving the air spring shaft by hand. I'd appreciate any ideas. The fork still performs really well otherwise.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

phreeky said:


> I still can't figure out this deadspot at the top of the travel. It's probably about 5mm or so. I've partially slid the lowers off and ensured the shafts are extended when tightening the bolts down, so it shouldn't be any vacuum in the lowers, and the negative air spring seems equalised as I can feel the diff with the pump attached and ensured that the fork was extended whilst removing the pump.
> 
> What else could it be? It doesn't seem to be sucking back into the travel, just that there's basically no resistance. I'm thinking of dropping the lowers this week and seeing if the deadspot is there just moving the air spring shaft by hand. I'd appreciate any ideas. The fork still performs really well otherwise.


Does it top out with knock when you push it about 1cm and then pull up fast?


----------



## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

No knocks that I've noticed. What would a knock noise indicate being a problem?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

phreeky said:


> No knocks that I've noticed. What would a knock noise indicate being a problem?


after 3 days of riding my new mattoc pro 2 developed harsh top out like this.




Full service didnt help, even manitou service didnt fix it. Recieved new one under warranty. For me it looked like rebound piston midvalve fail. It has no rebound at all under this small stroke moves. No matter what settings of rebound was.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

The new one has no top out clunk so far (I didnt ride it yet due to bad weather). It has knocking when rebound set full slow. Like midvalve smashes piston when fork starts to rebound.





Air spring fills properly, cuz its buttery soft. I guess something smahes in damper.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

No, I have no noises in mine like that (the only sound is that of oil), and the rebound and compression damping are both highly effective.

I'm starting to wonder whether it's stiction, although it's very odd it would only happen at the top of the stroke.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Well the fork is back together, however there is still a small 'dead spot'. I measured it, it's more like 2mm (I over-estimated earlier), so quite minor.
- With the lowers removed and moving the airspring rod by hand, the minor play is there, so it's the airspring itself. I made sure I'd equalised +/- air springs. I wasn't in the mood for getting inside the air spring today.
- Unrelated, however there was very little oil in the damper side. I'd serviced this fork previously, so the oil has gone elsewhere. I'd noticed the compression damper over-filled a couple of months back so I'm wondering if it somehow migrated there. I'll keep an eye on it.
- The wiper seals were a complete pig to remove. They'd stuck to the lowers very well, I slid a blade under the edge of the seal and had to gently ease them up a bit to get them moving. Just using a metal tyre lever from inside the seal I had no chance!


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

if your damper suck in bath oil Dougal suggested to change damper seal for metric oring 10x3.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

somewhere leaked drawing of coil mattoc


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

nikon255 said:


> if your damper suck in bath oil Dougal suggested to change damper seal for metric oring 10x3.


Yeah I did recall that. I'll wait and see though, it's only a suspicion at this stage - it seems odd that a section under pressure and preventing full travel would suck oil in from the lowers, I'd expect a bad seal to actually do the reverse. So I'll leave it be for now.

It does feel nicer with some fresh oil, wipers and oil seals, so I suppose that means it was due. I ride in absolutely horrible dusty conditions (dry area already + a period of drought) and the stanchions are caked with fine dust after every ride.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

phreeky said:


> if you're getting sufficient pre-load before tightening the stem bolts


I am not, which is why I posed the question here. The star nut slips way before getting sufficient preload, and that includes me using the hope expander starnut cranked down as hard I as I can.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Most of the headset manufacturers specify preload value between 1-1.5 Nm. Your star-nut is already slipping at such low torque?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

LaXCarp said:


> I am not, which is why I posed the question here. The star nut slips way before getting sufficient preload, and that includes me using the hope expander starnut cranked down as hard I as I can.


If you're sure it's not an issue with your headset or setup then just get a headlock.
Here's one:

Brand-X Headlock


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

My Mattoc has an issue that every couple weeks I'll be riding and it will start to get massive stiction. Best I can tell it that the negative air chamber leaks. The fix is easy, I just have to connect my shock pump and equalize the two chambers at the correct PSI and its good until the next time.

If my diagnosis is correct, what is the permanent fix? Is there a seal I need to change out?
Or a problem with the poppet valve system?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> If you're sure it's not an issue with your headset or setup then just get a headlock.
> Here's one:
> 
> Brand-X Headlock


That is exactly the thing I used many years ago. Great find.



ac1000 said:


> My Mattoc has an issue that every couple weeks I'll be riding and it will start to get massive stiction. Best I can tell it that the negative air chamber leaks. The fix is easy, I just have to connect my shock pump and equalize the two chambers at the correct PSI and its good until the next time.
> 
> If my diagnosis is correct, what is the permanent fix? Is there a seal I need to change out?
> Or a problem with the poppet valve system?


Could it be the main air seal allowing air to escape into the positive chamber as it cycles? Do you have the new air piston, the one that only uses grease?


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Could it be the main air seal allowing air to escape into the positive chamber as it cycles? Do you have the new air piston, the one that only uses grease?


I remember seeing here someone saying that if you have the green sticker on the box then you have the new air piston. I bought the fork used but it came with the box and it did have the green sticker. I didn't check it though.

When I've opened it up I've only used slickhoney on the air piston.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phreeky said:


> Yeah I did recall that. I'll wait and see though, it's only a suspicion at this stage - it seems odd that a section under pressure and preventing full travel would suck oil in from the lowers, I'd expect a bad seal to actually do the reverse. So I'll leave it be for now.
> 
> It does feel nicer with some fresh oil, wipers and oil seals, so I suppose that means it was due. I ride in absolutely horrible dusty conditions (dry area already + a period of drought) and the stanchions are caked with fine dust after every ride.


It's not a bad seal. The stock seal is a lip type that keeps oil in the damper very well but can let oil stuck to the shaft slide up and into the damper.

An oring seals better in the reverse direction. Has a little more friction though.

I have the same dry dust conditions.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> I am not, which is why I posed the question here. The star nut slips way before getting sufficient preload, and that includes me using the hope expander starnut cranked down as hard I as I can.


You've got a headset issue. Top caps need very little torque when the headset is good.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> It's not a bad seal. The stock seal is a lip type that keeps oil in the damper very well but can let oil stuck to the shaft slide up and into the damper.
> 
> An oring seals better in the reverse direction. Has a little more friction though.
> 
> I have the same dry dust conditions.


I have to say 10x3 o-ring fits great. We will see how it seal 

PS Dougal, you have overfilled your pm box.

*EDIT*

I opened up compression stack and lost shim order. Got:
1. 17,5 x8
2. 21 x10
3. 11 x8
4. 12 x10

Anybody knows whats the proper order from piston?


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

caste said:


> Let all air out from main chamber, cycle a couple of times and extend it to full travel before inflating again (shock pump must be attached the whole time). If it fails to extend again, try to repeat everything some times.


Discovered I had lost an inch of travel when I unloaded my bike after 3 days at altitude (relevant? dunno). Tried this procedure once and the problem got noticeably worse (fork did not want to extend past midway on its own). Tried it 5+ more times with minor variations in protocol and it stayed exactly the same. Then it suddenly reverted to normal (self-extending to within 10mm of how far it can be manually pulled out).

Thanks to everyone who has contributed technical knowledge to this thread! So glad to have my travel back after a brief scare. I'd love an explanation of what happened, and what I can do next time to fix it the first time around instead of the sixth?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

nikon255 said:


> I have to say 10x3 o-ring fits great. We will see how it seal
> 
> PS Dougal, you have overfilled your pm box.
> 
> ...


Original: 
10x12x0,2 
10x21x0,2 
8x11x0,25 
8x17,5x0,1 
----------- piston
10x25x0,15

As Dougal has indicated, later Mattoc's can have a different shimstack.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Great. Thank you.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Dougal said:


> You've got a headset issue. Top caps need very little torque when the headset is good.


So I've got multiple headsets issues then, with multiple brands? Ive tried it on several bikes with the same phenomenon. Those same headsets, with my other mattoc and mrp stage perform just fine and snug up at the appropriate torque.

I'll go the route of the headlock/turncoat if Manitou doesn't have another solution. Thanks for the advice on those. I'll say im surprised by the amount of people who insist its a headset issue.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

LaXCarp said:


> So I've got multiple headsets issues then, with multiple brands? Ive tried it on several bikes with the same phenomenon. Those same headsets, with my other mattoc and mrp stage perform just fine and snug up at the appropriate torque.
> 
> I'll go the route of the headlock/turncoat if Manitou doesn't have another solution. Thanks for the advice on those. I'll say im surprised by the amount of people who insist its a headset issue.


it's not hard to replace the star nut. I mean, they are just plastic, so I guess it's probably possible to fatigue it.

because the star nut is plastic, I can't imagine the issue would be the inner surface of the steerer tube. that doesn't seem possible.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

ColinL said:


> it's not hard to replace the star nut. I mean, they are just plastic, so I guess it's probably possible to fatigue it.
> 
> because the star nut is plastic, I can't imagine the issue would be the inner surface of the steerer tube. that doesn't seem possible.


I've replaced it several times and also purchased a Hope head doctor (which is an expanding plug) and the issue persists. I've never heard of a plastic star nut, all of mine have been steel or some type of material that is harder than the aluminum steer tube.

Again, I presume the original owner sold me the mattoc pro for $175 shipped because he was also having this issue.

I don't mean to be getting annoyed with MTBR but seriously folks, I didn't run here and whine without attempting some basic and obvious solutions such as: its the headset or install a new star nut. It sounds like I am the only one to have this issue with a Mattoc so I will bring it up with Hayes.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

ColinL said:


> it's not hard to replace the star nut. I mean, they are just plastic, so I guess it's probably possible to fatigue it.
> 
> because the star nut is plastic, I can't imagine the issue would be the inner surface of the steerer tube. that doesn't seem possible.


All my star nuts have steel outers and a alloy threaded centre, not sure about yours?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> If you're sure it's not an issue with your headset or setup then just get a headlock.
> Here's one:
> 
> Brand-X Headlock





LaXCarp said:


> I've replaced it several times and also purchased a Hope head doctor (which is an expanding plug) and the issue persists. I've never heard of a plastic star nut, all of mine have been steel or some type of material that is harder than the aluminum steer tube.
> 
> Again, I presume the original owner sold me the mattoc pro for $175 shipped because he was also having this issue.
> 
> I don't mean to be getting annoyed with MTBR but seriously folks, I didn't run here and whine without attempting some basic and obvious solutions such as: its the headset or install a new star nut. It sounds like I am the only one to have this issue with a Mattoc so I will bring it up with Hayes.


On my old Judy, I swear there was something wrong with the inner diameter that caused it to be loose. It would grab but would start getting pulled up. I even switched out the star nut and the same thing kept happening. The LBS said it was most likely a defect but rock shock would not cover it and recommended either buying a new crown or trying the rod thing. I went with the rod thing and never looked back.

With that said, the star nut and top cap are only meant to get things tight to start with, the stem will do the rest and keep things from moving. Does it not even stay in or when you preload, does it start to come up (which is what mine did).


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

phile said:


> Discovered I had lost an inch of travel when I unloaded my bike after 3 days at altitude (relevant? dunno). Tried this procedure once and the problem got noticeably worse (fork did not want to extend past midway on its own). Tried it 5+ more times with minor variations in protocol and it stayed exactly the same. Then it suddenly reverted to normal (self-extending to within 10mm of how far it can be manually pulled out).


I emailed Manitou/Hayes about this issue. The rep replied:
If the fork is sucked down in travel all you need to do is attach the pump, extend the fork to its full travel, and remove the pump. There is no need to cycle the fork with the pump attached.

In the same email response, without my mentioning it, the rep asked for my serial # so he could check for IVA. I freaking love these people. A fork that is on par with the best single crown forks, at much lower cost, with bizarrely good customer service. Pfffffft.


----------



## popotigre (Sep 29, 2015)

*New mattock pro. stanchion seems too long?*

Hi all! I just got a new 2017 mattoc pro. it is supposed to be 160mm (that's on the box and sticker on the lowers). However, the stanchion looks way too long. the inner length measures nearly 180mm. Is this normal? Or, do I contact the seller to get it exchanged?
Thanks a lot for your help, and looking forward to joining Manitou family.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

As far as I'm aware, because of the rear arch, the fork doesn't use all the exposed stanchion like other brands. 
My fork, for example, shows 180mm, and it's set at 170mm (26" wheel).


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Got a second hand slightly used Mattoc pro for a bargain price, the previous owner put lots of time into full wrapping it with 3m protective vinyl.

Then I opened it up and there was air chamber oil migrated in the negative chamber (first gen piston), little oil in the lowers, top plate of cartridge tube unscrewed. I guess the bargain price was because the previous owner was thinking it's not a good fork.

IRT installed, cartridge reassembled with fresh motorex 2.5WT, new RacingBros LycanEdge seals, Supergliss in the lowers, generous amounts of SlickHoney where it needs to be and lots of love everywhere. I'd almost like to send it back to him and see his mind blowing at how amazing this fork will be. Better spend time where it matters the most, instead of worrying about having immaculate lowers


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## djevox (Jul 18, 2008)

caste said:


> Better spend time where it matters the most, instead of worrying about having immaculate lowers


Come on man- if it looks good, it is good

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

popotigre said:


> Hi all! I just got a new 2017 mattoc pro. it is supposed to be 160mm (that's on the box and sticker on the lowers). However, the stanchion looks way too long. the inner length measures nearly 180mm. Is this normal? Or, do I contact the seller to get it exchanged?
> Thanks a lot for your help, and looking forward to joining Manitou family.
> 
> View attachment 1160133


If you need to reassure yourself, measure the actual max travel, not the exposed stanchion.


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## popotigre (Sep 29, 2015)

To Notched and fsrxc:
Thanks a lot for your quick replies! This morning, i delated air pressure all the way, and compressed fork to see the max travel. I couldn't make the wiper on the lowers touch the crown. Very strange was that , even without 0 psi, the fork was still springy (at a fair degree. I had to really compress the fork to get the o-ring 10mm-ish away from the crown). Isn't this weird?

By the way, after I re-inflaed the fork, the stanchion only exposed 155mm ish. So this is close to what the spec said. Then the problem is there is a dead travel at a full extension. Fork does not fully extend to 160mm. After I cycle compressing the fork a few times, then it's stuck at 155mm. But, if I pull the lower lack, it extends 5mm more travel and stays at 160mm.

Any advice?


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## popotigre (Sep 29, 2015)

Another small issue I also found that the dust wiper of my brand new mattoc is not fully seated. Both sides have this issue.
Should I take the lower off and re-press it? Or it does not really matter and just go ride?!


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> If you're sure it's not an issue with your headset or setup then just get a headlock.
> Here's one:
> 
> Brand-X Headlock





popotigre said:


> To Notched and fsrxc:
> Thanks a lot for your quick replies! This morning, i delated air pressure all the way, and compressed fork to see the max travel. I couldn't make the wiper on the lowers touch the crown. Very strange was that , even without 0 psi, the fork was still springy (at a fair degree. I had to really compress the fork to get the o-ring 10mm-ish away from the crown). Isn't this weird?
> 
> By the way, after I re-inflaed the fork, the stanchion only exposed 155mm ish. So this is close to what the spec said. Then the problem is there is a dead travel at a full extension. Fork does not fully extend to 160mm. After I cycle compressing the fork a few times, then it's stuck at 155mm. But, if I pull the lower lack, it extends 5mm more travel and stays at 160mm.
> ...


So, first, the O-ring will not touch the crown on a 27.5" fork. To make sure the fork can achieve full travel, turn the bike upside down and attach a pump to the fork. Release all the air in the fork using the button on the pump. Do this couple of times to make sure all the air is out. Keep the pump attached and pull the fork legs apart and turn the bike right side up. Make sure the O-ring is against the seal. Now push down as hard as you can. Pull the fork legs apart as far as you can and measure the distance between the seal and O-ring. I should be ~157mm. The last few mm comes from a bottom out bumper that is hard to compress by hand.

To fill the fork back up, keep the bike upside down and manually pull the legs apart before filling.

Also, your seals look fine. You most likely have the old system with the oil seals. These take a while to break in so give them about 30-40 hours to fully break in.


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## Mslide (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi guys,
I have a little problem with the cartridge of the Mattoc Pro.

I unscrewed the top to pull it out of the tube and the cartridge is sadly disconnected ?? I had to dismount the rebound unit to slip the cartridge down the tube...
Can I screw it normally to the top cap or is there something special to do ?
I have tried to screw it by hand and to put it again in the tube but the low speed compression doesn't work (HSC and HBO are ok) ??

Thanks for your help...



PS : Please excuse my bad English (I'm from Europe)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mslide said:


> Hi guys,
> I have a little problem with the cartridge of the Mattoc Pro.
> 
> I unscrewed the top to pull it out of the tube and the cartridge is sadly disconnected ?? I had to dismount the rebound unit to slip the cartridge down the tube...
> ...


The cartridge screws onto the top seal plate and also to the end-cap. It will be best to draw everything out, screw it together and then reinstall. You will need to reset oil levels after.


----------



## Mslide (Apr 19, 2012)

OK thanks for the quick answer.

Do I have to screw it by hand only or do I need a tool ?


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

delete


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mslide said:


> OK thanks for the quick answer.
> 
> Do I have to screw it by hand only or do I need a tool ?


Best to hold the end-cap with the cartridge tool and use the wrench flats on the top plate to snug it up.


----------



## Mslide (Apr 19, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Best to hold the end-cap with the cartridge tool and use the wrench flats on the top plate to snug it up.











As you can see on the picture, I can't use a wrench flats ! But it's possible with an allen key on the right side of the picture from the back of the cartridge...is it ok ?
On the top of the cartridge I have to use the same tool that I use to screw it on the fork ?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mslide said:


> View attachment 1160664
> 
> 
> As you can see on the picture, I can't use a wrench flats ! But it's possible with an allen key on the right side of the picture from the back of the cartridge...is it ok ?
> On the top of the cartridge I have to use the same tool that I use to screw it on the fork ?


Okay, that's not the rebound cartridge I was giving you instructions for. That's the compression assembly.

Which part has come loose? The piston? The shaft?


----------



## Mslide (Apr 19, 2012)

When I unscrew the compression assembly from the tube, the left part where I use the cassette tool is disconnected from the rest of ther cartridge...(is it what you call the shaft ?)


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I guess compression set unscrew the top cap


----------



## Mslide (Apr 19, 2012)

Mslide said:


> When I unscrew the compression assembly from the tube, the left part where I use the cassette tool is disconnected from the rest of ther cartridge...(is it what you call the shaft ?)


----------



## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

*Pros and cons of cartridge vs. open rebound assembly (Pro/Expert)*

What is the theoretical advantage of the "Pro" cartridge rebound damper vs. the "Expert" version?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mslide said:


> When I unscrew the compression assembly from the tube, the left part where I use the cassette tool is disconnected from the rest of ther cartridge...(is it what you call the shaft ?)


I think if the shaft was removed you had to take the pistons and outer HSC collar off to get it all back together in order. There is an exploded view here:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BHlBU0Mj2GC/


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> What is the theoretical advantage of the "Pro" cartridge rebound damper vs. the "Expert" version?


~100ml less oil which is ~85g (0.2lb) less weight.


----------



## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

I dinged my stanchion yesterday. It's only a small scratch (2mm vertical) but I can feel it with my fingernail. Something to worry about?? Can I lightly sand it to make it smoother?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes you can polish scratches from stanchions with fine sandpaper. Get it smooth enough and the seal will follow with no leakage. But the main thing is to take off any sharp edges that may damage the seals.


----------



## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

What grit sandpaper should I use, starting from 500 and up? Or a higher to start from?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I used 1500 and 2500 and 5mm wire/anything else allowing me to polish only this scratch. Not the area around.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Super, thanks


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

I took apart my Mattoc Pro tonight for servicing. The bottom of the compression damper had a dent in it. Noticed it was way low on oil too and when I unscrewed the lower rebound assembly the top sealing ring of the pro damper stayed in the stanchion with the oil I was looking for trapped between the stanchion and the outer tube of the damper. Also, the dent in the compression damper is from bent hbo plunger screw on top of the inner rebound shaft. Anyone seen this issue. I have an email in to tech support too.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

hurck said:


> I dinged my stanchion yesterday. It's only a small scratch (2mm vertical) but I can feel it with my fingernail. Something to worry about?? Can I lightly sand it to make it smoother?


Based on appearance, I have worse on my stanchions and not experienced any issues. Yeah it'll prob drag some additional dust/dirt in, but so long as there aren't edges sticking up then leave it alone IMO. If there are edges sticking up then do you best to just ease those off - I wouldn't go sanding it unless it was REALLY bad.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Manitou sent me the updated "air piston." How does it differ from the old version? Is it better? 

For some reason I thought it was going to be an IVA assembly...not sure why I'd thought that.


----------



## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

phile said:


> Manitou sent me the updated "air piston." How does it differ from the old version? Is it better?
> 
> For some reason I thought it was going to be an IVA assembly...not sure why I'd thought that.


The new piston has a different seal head, the older one was prone to leaking air and lube oil into the negative chamber.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> Manitou sent me the updated "air piston." How does it differ from the old version? Is it better?
> 
> For some reason I thought it was going to be an IVA assembly...not sure why I'd thought that.


Updated piston has 2 glide rings instead of 1 to keep the piston straight in the stanchion.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

phile said:


> Manitou sent me the updated "air piston." How does it differ from the old version? Is it better?
> 
> For some reason I thought it was going to be an IVA assembly...not sure why I'd thought that.


No, the first piston would allow the oil at the top of the piston to slowly leak down. The new piston only uses grease, no oil and is smoother and wont leak oil (as there is not)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> No, the first piston would allow the oil at the top of the piston to slowly leak down. The new piston only uses grease, no oil and is smoother and wont leak oil (as there is not)


The change from oil to grease was noy because of the new piston. It was across the entire fork line up because grease stays in place better and there is no risk of oil migration. The timing was coincidence.

The piston change was because air could slip past the seal into the negative chamber and make the fork "stuck down". This was because under high side loads, the piston could slightly twist. This is a problem with all forks. Adding a second glide ring under the seal prevents this from happening and has solved the issue. It also allows the piston to slide smoother when under load.

You can run the old piston with grease with no issues. Keep it as a back up if you have it.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> The change from oil to grease was because of the new piston. It was across the entire fork line up because grease stays in place better and there is no risk of oil migration. The timing was coincidence.
> 
> The piston change was because air could slip past the seal into the negative chamber and make the fork "stuck down". This was because under high side loads, the piston could slightly twist. This is a problem with all forks. Adding a second glide ring under the seal prevents this from happening and has solved the issue. It also allows the piston to slide smoother when under load.
> 
> You can run the old piston with grease with no issues. Keep it as a back up if you have it.


OK, that is good to know. I think I actually still have it somewhere!


----------



## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Thanks a lot for the info, all!


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Yesterday I tried the second Mattoc I got second hand, I'm afraid it has a stanchion creaking. Since I have no warranty I hope in some kind of crash-replacement, new CSU would cost 150 euros which while it's cheap in itself would bring the cost up a fair bit.. would be a nice chance to update both air pistons on both Mattocs aswell..


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

caste said:


> Yesterday I tried the second Mattoc I got second hand, I'm afraid it has a stanchion creaking. Since I have no warranty I hope in some kind of crash-replacement, new CSU would cost 150 euros which while it's cheap in itself would bring the cost up a fair bit.. would be a nice chance to update both air pistons on both Mattocs aswell..


I've had good luck eliminating stanchion creaks with linseed oil.
Turn the bike upside down, drizzle some oil in the junction. Clean up whatever you can and let it sit overnight or so.
Other's have recommended various loctite combinations but the linseed has worked for me.


----------



## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

ac1000 said:


> I've had good luck eliminating stanchion creaks with linseed oil.
> Turn the bike upside down, drizzle some oil in the junction. Clean up whatever you can and let it sit overnight or so.
> Other's have recommended various loctite combinations but the linseed has worked for me.


Where is the creak coming from? (Just curious.)

When I emailed Manitou U.S. a couple of weeks ago about a replacement 26" upper for a scratched stanchion, I was told they have one left, in red, available from benscycle.com (a retailer they must have some relationship with) for $210. Just fyi if any of that is relevant to your situation.


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

ac1000 said:


> I've had good luck eliminating stanchion creaks with linseed oil.
> Turn the bike upside down, drizzle some oil in the junction. Clean up whatever you can and let it sit overnight or so.
> Other's have recommended various loctite combinations but the linseed has worked for me.


Thanks, will try that. Tomorrow I'll search loctite fix aswell.



phile said:


> Where is the creak coming from? (Just curious.)
> 
> When I emailed Manitou U.S. a couple of weeks ago about a replacement 26" upper for a scratched stanchion, I was told they have one left, in red, available from benscycle.com (a retailer they must have some relationship with) for $210. Just fyi if any of that is relevant to your situation.


Mine seems to come from the junction of the left stanchion and the fork head. Crc has them fair cheaper, 160$ but only Black and White for 26". Could live with a 650B uppers, though..


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

caste said:


> Mine seems to come from the junction of the left stanchion and the fork head. Crc has them fair cheaper, 160$ but only Black and White for 26". Could live with a 650B uppers, though..


Oh, I hadn't looked at third-party sources for the part--seemed too obscure. Good to know. Good luck with your creak!


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok found also the loctite fix.. Red Loctite + heat might not be the best solution without disassembling the fork. Will try the linseed oil solution this evening, my mom is a painter so I can easily borrow some from her. Read a bit about the polymerizating properties, sounds a smart fix, hope it works.


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## bedlam (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi all, great thread!

I've just bought one of these after being very disappointed with the Pike that came with my Trek Remedy. Even after a custom tune it seemed to spike harshly over rocks at speed and I could never seem to set it up right for me. It scared me the way it kicked. Great at bike park stuff that was smoother, or slower rooty trails (with lighter oil / custom tune anyway)

I'm a female rider 140 pound kitted up and hoping to run the fork at 140mm. I'm hoping to get the safe feeling plushness at speed on rocky welsh trails that I miss from my old XC fork, but without it diving on drops. Am I going to be able to get a decent performance out of this fork? will I need to open it up and change shims / oil perhaps or is there enough adjustment in the fork?

Thanks!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

bedlam said:


> Hi all, great thread!
> 
> I've just bought one of these after being very disappointed with the Pike that came with my Trek Remedy. Even after a custom tune it seemed to spike harshly over rocks at speed and I could never seem to set it up right for me. It scared me the way it kicked. Great at bike park stuff that was smoother, or slower rooty trails (with lighter oil / custom tune anyway)
> 
> ...


It should work out of the box. My son started running his when he weighed 110 pounds. Just run it full open on the compression and rebound sides (might need one click in on rebound) with no HBO. As he got heavier and more aggressive, we found the IRT helped, but at lighter weights the stock spring works great.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bedlam said:


> Hi all, great thread!
> 
> I've just bought one of these after being very disappointed with the Pike that came with my Trek Remedy. Even after a custom tune it seemed to spike harshly over rocks at speed and I could never seem to set it up right for me. It scared me the way it kicked. Great at bike park stuff that was smoother, or slower rooty trails (with lighter oil / custom tune anyway)
> 
> ...


A bit of A and a bit of B. I should have Mrs Dougal on a Mattoc in a few weeks to sort out the tune for a standard size female. But out of the box they are enormously better than a Pike.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bedlam said:


> Hi all, great thread!
> 
> I've just bought one of these after being very disappointed with the Pike that came with my Trek Remedy. Even after a custom tune it seemed to spike harshly over rocks at speed and I could never seem to set it up right for me. It scared me the way it kicked. Great at bike park stuff that was smoother, or slower rooty trails (with lighter oil / custom tune anyway)
> 
> ...


My wife weighs 135lbs and the stock tune works perfect for her. I offered to tune it for her and she said there was no need. You will likely be fine, but if you need to tune it, we will be more than happy to help.


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

*Custom Intense Blue Pearl Mattoc*

After replacing a bent damper I figured I should polish up my 14' white Manitou Mattoc. Just waiting on a new frame and the low friction seals. 
Duplicolor Chrysler Intense Blue Pearl
2k Clear coat
Digging how this turned out.
It'll be mounted on a 16' Kona Process 134 DL. Warrantied frame for my 15' Supreme model.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Looks great. I tried to get a colour like that to paint a bike frame years ago.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mountaingoatepics said:


> After replacing a bent damper I figured I should polish up my 14' white Manitou Mattoc. Just waiting on a new frame and the low friction seals.
> Duplicolor Chrysler Intense Blue Pearl
> 2k Clear coat
> Digging how this turned out.
> ...


Holy crap that looks great! Well done!


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## bedlam (Aug 27, 2008)

dupe


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## bedlam (Aug 27, 2008)

dupe


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## bedlam (Aug 27, 2008)

This all sounds very promising, thanks all!

I'll report back once I've had a few rides on the fork. Very excited to try it.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Is it possible to disable the HBO system? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the cone off the bottom of the compression damper? Would I have to add a nut in it's place?

I have a 2015 Mattoc Expert.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> Is it possible to disable the HBO system? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the cone off the bottom of the compression damper? Would I have to add a nut in it's place?
> 
> I have a 2015 Mattoc Expert.


Yes, but why would you?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yes, but why would you?


I run relatively high pressures and that seems to keep me from ever bottoming. 75 psi 90 psi irt 170 lb riding weight.
I'll try it disabled for a bit and put it back if it performs the same or worse.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> I run relatively high pressures and that seems to keep me from ever bottoming. 75 psi 90 psi irt 170 lb riding weight.
> I'll try it disabled for a bit and put it back if it performs the same or worse.


Sounds like you need a full retune.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

ac1000 said:


> I run relatively high pressures and that seems to keep me from ever bottoming. 75 psi 90 psi irt 170 lb riding weight.
> I'll try it disabled for a bit and put it back if it performs the same or worse.


Your main spring seems very high for 170 lb. I'm a couple of lb heavier and run 45 psi in the main spring and 90 psi in the IRT. I get 155mm of travel on big hits.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> I run relatively high pressures and that seems to keep me from ever bottoming. 75 psi 90 psi irt 170 lb riding weight.
> I'll try it disabled for a bit and put it back if it performs the same or worse.


Egad, those pressures are high. What kind of terrain and riding are you hitting?

I am close to 200 lbs and I run 55 PSI and ~100 PSI in the IRT. What others setting do you have? I recommend dropping the pressure and using the IRT to prevent bottom out.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like you need a full retune.


What are you suggesting I look at?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Egad, those pressures are high. What kind of terrain and riding are you hitting?
> 
> I am close to 200 lbs and I run 55 PSI and ~100 PSI in the IRT. What others setting do you have? I recommend dropping the pressure and using the IRT to prevent bottom out.


Mostly pedal up to the top and bomb down riding. Not a ton of rolling XC stuff. On big enough drops I'll use all or most of the travel but otherwise the o ring always has a bit left even on resort DH tracks.
My fork is set at 150mm so the PSI difference isn't quite as extreme as you guys but yeah, I tend to run my forks stiffer than the recommendations. This isn't just a Mattoc thing for me I've come to the same conclusion on other forks.
With less pressure I find steep braking sketchy and that the bike gets hung up on rocks. And I can't get that magic feeling frequency that doesn't wallow.
My shock on the other hand feels good pressurized low enough to give up its travel easily but somehow feels balanced with the front.
Currently on a 2016 Stumpjumper 650b with Monarch rt3.
I have tried less main pressure and more IRT but I find eventually you run into a wall with the IRT high enough.
I just put on new seals and supergliss from Dougal and the new style air piston from Manitou so I may need to play with things again but I think I'm at 1 click in LSC, 0 click in HSC, 2 rebound out and of course 0 HBO.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> Mostly pedal up to the top and bomb down riding. Not a ton of rolling XC stuff. On big enough drops I'll use all or most of the travel but otherwise the o ring always has a bit left even on resort DH tracks.
> My fork is set at 150mm so the PSI difference isn't quite as extreme as you guys but yeah, I tend to run my forks stiffer than the recommendations. This isn't just a Mattoc thing for me I've come to the same conclusion on other forks.
> With less pressure I find steep braking sketchy and that the bike gets hung up on rocks. And I can't get that magic feeling frequency that doesn't wallow.
> My shock on the other hand feels good pressurized low enough to give up its travel easily but somehow feels balanced with the front.
> ...


So that makes more sense. I do find even my fork with much lower pressures won't use the last few mm until I make a mistake.

Have you ever tried dropping 10 PSI and adding some LSC and HSC? Might be a way to get a plusher feel but keep it from diving too fast.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> What are you suggesting I look at?


First with the lowers off check you can fully compress the damper shaft. This is your test to see if oil height is correct.

Then tune by natural frequency: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup

Tuning IRT is more difficult than tuning without as you've got two air pressures to play with. I had a great result on the new Boost 27" 160mm Mattoc with 40 and 60psi. I'm ~75kg plus riding gear. Tried 40-70psi and didn't like it as much:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BahkDulFtB3/

That's showing the full 160mm.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ac1000 said:


> Mostly pedal up to the top and bomb down riding. Not a ton of rolling XC stuff. On big enough drops I'll use all or most of the travel but otherwise the o ring always has a bit left even on resort DH tracks.
> My fork is set at 150mm so the PSI difference isn't quite as extreme as you guys but yeah, I tend to run my forks stiffer than the recommendations. This isn't just a Mattoc thing for me I've come to the same conclusion on other forks.
> With less pressure I find steep braking sketchy and that the bike gets hung up on rocks. And I can't get that magic feeling frequency that doesn't wallow.
> My shock on the other hand feels good pressurized low enough to give up its travel easily but somehow feels balanced with the front.
> ...


I am going to say too much pressure. My son is a Cat 2 DH racer. At 165 pounds, he is running 55/95 psi, which is somewhat firm on top, but lets him get full travel. I suggest trying reduced IRT pressure, or even removing it and running it with a single chamber, as it sounds like you like a firm fork throughout the travel, with lots of support through. This says a linear spring to me. Not wrong, just different than what most prefer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Cary said:


> I am going to say too much pressure. My son is a Cat 2 DH racer. At 165 pounds, he is running 55/95 psi, which is somewhat firm on top, but lets him get full travel. I suggest trying reduced IRT pressure, or even removing it and running it with a single chamber, as it sounds like you like a firm fork throughout the travel, with lots of support through. This says a linear spring to me. Not wrong, just different than what most prefer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'll go back and try my setup with lower pressures fresh seals and a fresh mind. But really, although atypical, the fork feels rad with its current settings. Of course I'll take whatever more performance I can get.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> First with the lowers off check you can fully compress the damper shaft. This is your test to see if oil height is correct.
> 
> Then tune by natural frequency: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup
> 
> ...


Is this the mattoc with the overworked chassis or have you already tried it? As I can see on the picturs on pinkbike etc. the crown seems to have gotten a different shape around the stanchions and the lowers seem to have a bit of a different shape, too. IS the 2018 any stiffer than the 2016 version? and would the new crown and the old lowers on the none boost version be compatible?
cheers


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Is this the mattoc with the overworked chassis or have you already tried it? As I can see on the picturs on pinkbike etc. the crown seems to have gotten a different shape around the stanchions and the lowers seem to have a bit of a different shape, too. IS the 2018 any stiffer than the 2016 version? and would the new crown and the old lowers on the none boost version be compatible?
> cheers


I have heard that the Boost mattoc with new seals feels like a different fork. Not sure if I was being told some to upgrade but I have heard it from a couple of people. Does the boost really help that much?


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

Small update on my creaky uppers: tried a loctite 290 alternative, now it's silent. I can also confirm that the red one is faster than the black one 

Btw, I'm between 70 and 75kg naked, I run 60 or 70 psi on main chamber and 120 in the IRT, [email protected] travel and just 1 click of HSC from full open. Might try a bit lower pressure but feels extremely nice right now.. I'd say even dangerous, I find myself charging stuff at way more speed that I can handle. 
Impressive upgrade from my previous Fox 180 Van Factory blablabla, which was also been tuned twice for me.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> I have heard that the Boost mattoc with new seals feels like a different fork. Not sure if I was being told some to upgrade but I have heard it from a couple of people. Does the boost really help that much?


I have also been told that the new dust seals make a noticeable difference from both Nick Mullen and Zac Smith. I'm sure Dougal can confirm as well.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Yeah I'm curious beyond dust seals and IRT, what the boost version offers

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Where can I get a replacement O ring for the IRT piston?
Or what size and material is it?


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## caste (Dec 5, 2014)

R_Pierce said:


> I have also been told that the new dust seals make a noticeable difference from both Nick Mullen and Zac Smith. I'm sure Dougal can confirm as well.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Sure they did. When I switched to Racingbros I had to go 10psi up in pressure, went from a great fork to a mindblowing one. OG ones were good at not letting anything into the fork, but were also a bit tight.

I'd be curious to try the revised air piston since I have the very first one and the new rebound shim stack, but at the same time I can't imagine a fork being better than this.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Guys, don't get too hung up on comparing rider weight vs. main/irt pressures. I've seen pump gauges be as much as +/-15psi off. That's a huge range. What's important is the split between main and irt. This will tell you more about the shape of the spring curve than comparing pressures as absolutes.

From my testing/preference, the lower the split, the better. This yields a more linear curve. I'm running a Magnum with a 29 set at 140. This config has the same volume as a 27 Mattoc at 160. Currently I've got the IRT vol reduced 20cc. I have tested reducing both the main and irt, and right now I think irt yields better results and it's dead easy to do. I'm currently running a 35psi split and moving toward even lower. I use this bike for everything from cuising trails with the kids to trips to the bike park, and I don't change much when I go to the park.

Don't be afraid to bottom that fork. Leaving 10mm of unused travel all the time isn't saving you from a trip to the ER.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Well, I own a mattoc now.

Manitou Mattoc Pro 2 Forks - 15mm CRC Exclusive 2017 | Chain Reaction Cycles


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ktm520 said:


> Guys, don't get too hung up on comparing rider weight vs. main/irt pressures. I've seen pump gauges be as much as +/-15psi off. That's a huge range.


^^^^ this.

And if you feel the need to compare pressures and are not worried about pump guage variations, you need to include wheel size, are travel configurations with your pressures. The spring volume changes based on these factors, so pressures vary as well. A 150mm 26" fork is going to have very different pressures than a 160mm 27.5 fork.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

ac1000 said:


> Where can I get a replacement O ring for the IRT piston?
> Or what size and material is it?


For anyone looking for the answer to this it's:

O-RING 2-119 BUNA-N 70A


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> The change from oil to grease was noy because of the new piston. It was across the entire fork line up because grease stays in place better and there is no risk of oil migration. The timing was coincidence.
> 
> The piston change was because air could slip past the seal into the negative chamber and make the fork "stuck down". This was because under high side loads, the piston could slightly twist. This is a problem with all forks. Adding a second glide ring under the seal prevents this from happening and has solved the issue. It also allows the piston to slide smoother when under load.
> 
> You can run the old piston with grease with no issues. Keep it as a back up if you have it.


With new do you mean the Pro 2 or Pro 3?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

pr3d4t0r said:


> With new do you mean the Pro 2 or Pro 3?


The "old" piston was only used in the original mattoc expert/pro from 2014. Any in stock forks were updated before going out to vendors, and are marked with a green dot on the box. The pro 2 and new mattoc boost all have these updates.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Was going to ask about possible causes of losing a bit of travel after parking the bike for a month (26expert), but may have put some 20wt there and need to check if I switched to slickoleum...anyway, still getting good performance and seems to ride extra smooth when I pull the lowers fully extended, roll the ring up a touch and bump the lowers there (w/ pump attached), anyone else tried it?

*edit*
Looks like I put oil instead of grease on top of the updated seal, see if it holds now...


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Joining the club with the Chain Reaction Cycles bargain. Woo!


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

tomvanhalen said:


> Joining the club with the Chain Reaction Cycles bargain. Woo!


Yeah boi!!!!!!!


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## pr3d4t0r (Jan 4, 2016)

@mullen119 - thanks for the clarification!


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Thinking ahead, does anyone in the UK know where to source the new low-friction seals and a cheaper 8mm socket for travel adjust?

Anything I should be doing while I have the fork apart?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tomvanhalen said:


> Thinking ahead, does anyone in the UK know where to source the new low-friction seals and a cheaper 8mm socket for travel adjust?
> 
> Anything I should be doing while I have the fork apart?


I'm not sure for Europe. Dougal sells and ships world wide for a reasonable price, I would go that route. Pick up a small bottle of supergliss as well, it's worth it. I'm about due as well.

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz

When you get your fork, the side of the box will have a build date. Post that and we can better determine if anything should be done while it's apart. Probably doesn't need anything.


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

I'm also a member of the Mattoc club, thanks to everyone in this thread (especially Dougal) for the invaluable information. I dropped the travel to 140, checked the damper level and put 15ml of Motorex 5/40 of bath oil in the lowers, absolutely zero oil came out when I dropped the legs, hilarious, it was the same with my Marzocchi 350s when I got them too, not acceptable when you're a UK rider as every ride is basically a bog fest.











tomvanhalen said:


> Thinking ahead, does anyone in the UK know where to source the new low-friction seals and a cheaper 8mm socket for travel adjust?
> 
> Anything I should be doing while I have the fork apart?


No idea about the low friction seals, the CRC Pro 2 I bought (amazing deal at £350) has EXTREMELY slippery seals, even with 80psi in and 2 clicks of LSC I can move the fork into its travel with hardly any weight on the bars.

After looking around I couldn't find anything that'd work for teh 8mm so just bought the kit, it is expensive but worth the money, it makes doing any service a lot easier.

You could put an 8mm socket on a drill, clamp the drill in a vice, set it going slowly and then use a dremel to machine down the walls on the socket, your own bodged lathe! Do this at your own risk though


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

How you fix sucking in oil from lowers?

I made as you described to get thin walled socket by using this set


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Where can I get travel spacers? I got a 2018 27.5 Comp Boost, but it didn't have the spacers. If the shop tells me they are not included or won't help I'll need to look elsewhere. So far I have found nothing online.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm really confused by the options available on the Mattoc. I need a 140mm 29er BOOST fork. Does the Mattoc come in that configuration? 

It seems to top out at 120mm in boost 29er, which is counterintuitive when the 27.5 forks can go up to 160. I can't find a Boost 140mm 29er fork anywhere.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> I'm really confused by the options available on the Mattoc. I need a 140mm 29er BOOST fork. Does the Mattoc come in that configuration?
> 
> It seems to top out at 120mm in boost 29er, which is counterintuitive when the 27.5 forks can go up to 160. I can't find a Boost 140mm 29er fork anywhere.


27.5+ and 29r are the same fork and can go to 140mm. The 120mm max travel fork is 29+

All mattocs are boost now. A magnum 27.5+/29 will work as well, though tire size caps out at a true 2.4 on magnums when running 29" wheels unless you add a extra bottom out spacer.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> 27.5+ and 29r are the same fork and can go to 140mm. The 120mm max travel fork is 29+
> 
> All mattocs are boost now. A magnum 27.5+/29 will work as well, though tire size caps out at a true 2.4 on magnums when running 29" wheels unless you add a extra bottom out spacer.


Thanks. Ill keep an eye out.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

*travel change and re-tune shim stack*

I need to drop the travel of a 160mm 2018 Mattoc Comp Boost to 140mm and switch to a different shim stack. I've read through the manual, watched the video, read much of this thread, and looked at other resources. Some things are still not 100% clear to me:

-using a park FR-5 to remove and reinstall the compression rod cap. Many say this works, but looking at my FR-5 it looks like it won't be deep enough. Or can I remove that black round/angled piece at the end and slip the rod through the hole in the FR-5?

-I will probably just remove one of the shims from the stock config to get the lighter trail tune. If I wanted to use a different tune like EK-012611-02 that uses different shims, where can I get those?

-I have a DVO diamond and now this Mattoc. Is there an oil I can use in both forks for the lowers?

-Same for cartridge oil? One that works for both DVO and Manitou? I would bias towards lighter oil than DVO uses.

-If I change the travel to 140mm, I should still set the cartridge oil level to 87mm. Does adjusting this give any tuning options? I understand its VERY sensitive to changes of just 1-2mm.

Looks very easy to service. I just want to make sure I don't run into a gotchas with the fork in pieces.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> Thanks. Ill keep an eye out.


If i remember correctly, they may all ship out at 120mm, but can be extended to 140mm by removing travel spacers. You may be hard pressed to find one at 140mm stock.

The 100mm version can not be extended to 140mm though. It has shorter stanchions to save weight.



Doug said:


> I need to drop the travel of a 160mm 2018 Mattoc Comp Boost to 140mm and switch to a different shim stack. I've read through the manual, watched the video, read much of this thread, and looked at other resources. Some things are still not 100% clear to me:
> 
> -using a park FR-5 to remove and reinstall the compression rod cap. Many say this works, but looking at my FR-5 it looks like it won't be deep enough. Or can I remove that black round/angled piece at the end and slip the rod through the hole in the FR-5?
> 
> ...


I have only used slotted cassette tools for service, so I'm not sure about the FR-5. Others will have to chime in

The Abs+ guide reference is geared toward the 32mm stanchion forks (minute and marvel mainly). It won't be a 100% crossover as The guides listed stock trail stack is from a 140mm Manitou Minute, it may or may not be the stock stack in the Mattoc Comp. If it does cross reference, removing a preload shim will be a good start.

You can buy shims here
Revalving Shims

Or here

https://mx-tech.com/shop/valving-shims/

Maxima plush 5wt is an excellent oil, I use it in everything. Motorex 2.5 is very good well. I'm not sure what oil is stock for DVO, id see if either of those cross reference.

Keep the oil height at 87mm regardless of travel configuration. It's the oil height required to keep aeration of the oil from happening due to turbulence as oil goes through the ports and shims. (The only downside to non sealed dampers) The max oil height before loss of travel is slightly higher when the fork is lowered, but there is no benefits to be gained by playing with the oil level, so just stick with the 87mm.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I have only used slotted cassette tools for service, so I'm not sure about the FR-5. Others will have to chime in
> 
> Maxima plush 5wt is an excellent oil, I use it in everything. Motorex 2.5 is very good well. I'm not sure what oil is stock for DVO, id see if either of those cross reference.


I found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-SRAM-Cassette-Lockring-Remover-Removal-Tool-Bicycle-NEW-Ref-FR-5/152555436751?hash=item2385033acf:g:eO8AAOSw9mFWIGtZ

Looks like its a lot deeper and more hollow. The FR-5 might work, but this is a nice $5 insurance policy.

Maxima is the one oil I can't use in DVO stuff. It has seal swellers that don't play nice with their system. I'll do my best to not lose any oil, but if I need to top it off is it OK to mix oil? I have some Spectro gold.

I'll give the stock shim stack a try and see what she thinks. Its easy enough to do later.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Doug said:


> I found this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-SRAM-Cassette-Lockring-Remover-Removal-Tool-Bicycle-NEW-Ref-FR-5/152555436751?hash=item2385033acf:g:eO8AAOSw9mFWIGtZ
> 
> Looks like its a lot deeper and more hollow. The FR-5 might work, but this is a nice $5 insurance policy.
> ...


You can always cut a slot in one of them. I did that originally and it worked great.

Interesting about maxima oil and dvo. If you can use motorex oils, I would go that way then.

If you carefully remove the damper, you can usually get away without toping off one time. 2 removals is usually a given that it will need topped off.

You can mix oils, though it will change the cst and vi (only slightly if you are only topping off)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Maxima 5wt is getting thick enough for most riders (~18.6 cSt @40C). The Expert models have bigger rebound ports and likely run it fine. The Pro models have a smaller rebound piston with even smaller ports and are quite sensitive to thicker oils.

I'd recommend the 3wt (14 cSt) if you want to use Maxima Plush.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Doug said:


> I found this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-SRAM-Cassette-Lockring-Remover-Removal-Tool-Bicycle-NEW-Ref-FR-5/152555436751?hash=item2385033acf:g:eO8AAOSw9mFWIGtZ
> 
> Looks like its a lot deeper and more hollow. The FR-5 might work, but this is a nice $5 insurance policy.


Thats a freewheel tool, not a cassette tool. the teeth are very very shallow and if it does fit, you'll probably chowder the fitting.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Today I used a Parktool FR-5.2 to remove the airshaft on a Mattoc Comp from a friend.
All I needed was to remove all the air and compress the shaft. I was to try it on the damper side, but I forgot to do it in the end.
One alternative is the Unior Freewheel remover Shimano - 1670.5/4 
Link: https://www.bike24.com/p2159495.html







It is a very deep socket.

EDIT: I had posted the wrong tool


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

twodogsfighting said:


> Thats a freewheel tool, not a cassette tool. the teeth are very very shallow and if it does fit, you'll probably chowder the fitting.


Bugger. You are right.

I'll pull it apart tomorrow and just try my FR5. Sounds like it will work.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

So it has been 2,5 months since I last did a full service and My Mattoc started to feel very harsh again. I´ve ridden it lots during this time, probably at least 1000 km. Last time I thought the fault was migration of bath oil into the damper, so this time I tried a little more to figure out what was wrong.

It was obvious that the there was some kind of air spring inside the damper. The rebound shaft was very hard to compress and would spring back out from the damper. It was not an incompressible resistance from just to much suspension fluid. I removed the compression assembly and measured the oil height. It was about 73 mm, but it was difficult to measure it exactly since it was foaming and the is some inaccuracy from where to place the rebound shaft without the casting on.

And just replacing the suspension fluid and setting to oil height to 75 mm the fork seem back to it normal awesome state.

Any ideas on what gives this pressure build up in the damper? Is that some how air from the outside that get into to the fork from flex and builds up pressure? Can there be any significant amount of gas in the suspension fluid?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> So it has been 2,5 months since I last did a full service and My Mattoc started to feel very harsh again. I´ve ridden it lots during this time, probably at least 1000 km. Last time I thought the fault was migration of bath oil into the damper, so this time I tried a little more to figure out what was wrong.
> 
> It was obvious that the there was some kind of air spring inside the damper. The rebound shaft was very hard to compress and would spring back out from the damper. It was not an incompressible resistance from just to much suspension fluid. I removed the compression assembly and measured the oil height. It was about 73 mm, but it was difficult to measure it exactly since it was foaming and the is some inaccuracy from where to place the rebound shaft without the casting on.
> 
> ...


Your damper oil is foamed which causes it to increase in volume slightly. I'm trialing some things to stop this but it takes a lot of testing to be sure it's fixed


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I dont think the small amount of foam that is the big problem. Its the pressure inside the damper that is makes the fork very harsh. The fork must be ingesting air into the damper over time.

I guess the easiest fix will be just unscrew the compression assembly every now and then to remove the pressure?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dystopism said:


> I dont think the small amount of foam that is the big problem. Its the pressure inside the damper that is makes the fork very harsh. The fork must be ingesting air into the damper over time.
> 
> I guess the easiest fix will be just unscrew the compression assembly every now and then to remove the pressure?


A know of a few people who had this problem in manitou forks, as well as a few other brands with similar damper design. The only solution that worked was changing the damper oil. For whatever reason, the oil would foam and make the fork harsh. Releasing the pressure didn't help.


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> When you get your fork, the side of the box will have a build date. Post that and we can better determine if anything should be done while it's apart. Probably doesn't need anything.


Arrived yesterday. Date of manufacture listed as 2017/5/11, so pretty recent!

Took a while to find my 15mm axle caps. Went out and bought a proper adult-sized hacksaw and everything, so the steerer is appropriately chopped now too. Feels awesome from a quick bounce round the block. And it's lighter than the Lyrik by a full 720 g...


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

double post


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> I dont think the small amount of foam that is the big problem. Its the pressure inside the damper that is makes the fork very harsh. The fork must be ingesting air into the damper over time.
> 
> I guess the easiest fix will be just unscrew the compression assembly every now and then to remove the pressure?


It's the air intrusion and foaming that causes the pressure. It takes vacuum or heat to defoam oil so changing is easier for most people.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Aglo said:


> Today I used a Parktool FR-5.2 to remove the airshaft on a Mattoc Comp from a friend.
> All I needed was to remove all the air and compress the shaft.


I tried my FR5 and it is too shallow. The Walls are only 8.2mm deep before it quickly tapers down to an ID too narrow to fit over the schrader valve. So too shallow and too narrow a hole.

The freehub tool linked above would work. It is 20mm deep. However the splines are shallow and likely to strip the fork end cap.

I'm guessing the 5.2 is deeper and doesn't have as narrow an ID.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Doug said:


> I tried my FR5 and it is too shallow. The Walls are only 8.2mm deep before it quickly tapers down to an ID too narrow to fit over the schrader valve. So too shallow and too narrow a hole.
> 
> The freehub tool linked above would work. It is 20mm deep. However the splines are shallow and likely to strip the fork end cap.
> 
> I'm guessing the 5.2 is deeper and doesn't have as narrow an ID.


That's exactly why the real tool kit has a slotted tool.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

I just replaced the fork fluid now. It was well over due anyway. 

Is there any suspensions fluid that is better att preventing this from happen? I´ve previously used Maxima 5 WT fork oil (15,9 cSt @ 40C), that I think the fork comes stock with?

I spoke to the local dealer about the fork some time ago and he told me to use something viscous for the damper when servicing it. I had some SVI Rock Oil 15 wt at home that I now tried. When I googled it now afterward it seem to be 48 cSt @ 40 C, way more than i expected. Beside that the fork actually feels good and now gives full travel I cant tell any difference fork with the much lighter suspension fluid. Then again I could not either remeber how good the fork actually good be since it probably has been a long slow decline in performence with pressure build up previously.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> I just replaced the fork fluid now. It was well over due anyway.
> 
> Is there any suspensions fluid that is better att preventing this from happen? I´ve previously used Maxima 5 WT fork oil (15,9 cSt @ 40C), that I think the fork comes stock with?
> 
> I spoke to the local dealer about the fork some time ago and he told me to use something viscous for the damper when servicing it. I had some SVI Rock Oil 15 wt at home that I now tried. When I googled it now afterward it seem to be 48 cSt @ 40 C, way more than i expected. Beside that the fork actually feels good and now gives full travel I cant tell any difference fork with the much lighter suspension fluid. Then again I could not either remeber how good the fork actually good be since it probably has been a long slow decline in performence with pressure build up previously.


Yeah that stuff is 3x thicker than you want. It's thicker at 20C than the Maxima is at 0C.

Damper oil is best the thinnest you can reasonably run. Which is around the 14-16cSt mark. Shim stack dampers work on oil pressure and viscosity effects are mostly unwanted. By running a thicker oil you get a lot of damping from ports and holes that you don't want in addition to the damping from the shims.

This makes your fork run harsh on fast compressions


----------



## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

Well, the good news is that I get a chance to change the fluid back to 5 wt straight away. 

The bad news is that I got the same problem I had before the service after a day at the bike park. It now wont give full travel and is very harsh. I will tear the fork apart again, but I´m fairly sure there will be pressure inside the compression assembly again.

Any ideas to what could be wrong that causes the fork to trap air inside the compression assembly?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dystopism said:


> Well, the good news is that I get a chance to change the fluid back to 5 wt straight away.
> 
> The bad news is that I got the same problem I had before the service after a day at the bike park. It now wont give full travel and is very harsh. I will tear the fork apart again, but I´m fairly sure there will be pressure inside the compression assembly again.
> 
> Any ideas to what could be wrong that causes the fork to trap air inside the compression assembly?


Likely a seal. How old is it? If it's a older mattoc, I would replace the seals on the seal head (on the stanchion, both inner and outer though inner is the wear seal).

In its newish, contact manitou and have it warranteed


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> Well, the good news is that I get a chance to change the fluid back to 5 wt straight away.
> 
> The bad news is that I got the same problem I had before the service after a day at the bike park. It now wont give full travel and is very harsh. I will tear the fork apart again, but I´m fairly sure there will be pressure inside the compression assembly again.
> 
> Any ideas to what could be wrong that causes the fork to trap air inside the compression assembly?


Running extra thick oil will make the rebound side choke and pull air through the lower damper seal.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> That's exactly why the real tool kit has a slotted tool.


I saw multiple reports of the slotted one flexing and stripping the splines. That and I have a 24mm flat socket, made the 8mm in 15min, and could get a FR5 that works for $$54 les made it an easy choice.

My FR 5 is about 20 years old. It is just 8mm deep. The FR5 at the shop I went to was about 16mm. The FR5.2 is even deeper. Should work fine and no fear of it stripping. I'll cinfirm once I open it up when I get the spacers from Manitou.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Doug said:


> I saw multiple reports of the slotted one flexing and stripping the splines. That and I have a 24mm flat socket, made the 8mm in 15min, and could get a FR5 that works for $$54 les made it an easy choice.
> 
> My FR 5 is about 20 years old. It is just 8mm deep. The FR5 at the shop I went to was about 16mm. The FR5.2 is even deeper. Should work fine and no fear of it stripping. I'll cinfirm once I open it up when I get the spacers from Manitou.


I can't speak for others. But I've never had that problem with the tool flexing or splines stripping. Get a grinder and slot your own FR5 if you like. The Manitou one has a bigger bore too.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

mullen119 said:


> Likely a seal. How old is it? If it's a older mattoc, I would replace the seals on the seal head (on the stanchion, both inner and outer though inner is the wear seal).
> 
> In its newish, contact manitou and have it warranteed


Its not that old since it is the version 2 without the QR-axle. I think it has been running like 200-300 hours. I spoke with the local dealer and he said that the seal on the rebound shaft usually last a very long time and that I should see leakage if it is damaged. He also thought it was bad fork fluid that was the suspect.



Dougal said:


> Running extra thick oil will make the rebound side choke and pull air through the lower damper seal.


I was strange since it felt fine early on. The rebound was still so fast that it would overshoot when rebounding. After the bike park day the it was very slow. I guess higher shaft speeds could be a factor? I will tear it down again and rebuild it with correct fork fluid.

Does anyone know if the is a big quality difference between the Maxima 5 wt fork fluid with the green and the blue (racing) label?


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

I figured I would share this here. I see Bike Wagon has 26" Mattoc Pro forks on sale for $240 on eBay. I would prefer the Expert, but at this price this is hard to pass up. They have the same fork on Amazon for $291 and it says 17 available so me and 16 other people are going to get a killer deal.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359

I am going to convert to 27.5, put in the new low friction seals, add IRT and reduce travel to 150mm for use on my '16 Yeti SB5 and replace the horribly harsh Fox 34.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Kartwheel68 said:


> I figured I would share this here. I see Bike Wagon has 26" Mattoc Pro forks on sale for $240 on eBay. I would prefer the Expert, but at this price this is hard to pass up. They have the same fork on Amazon for $291 and it says 17 available so me and 16 other people are going to get a killer deal.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359
> 
> I am going to convert to 27.5, put in the new low friction seals, add IRT and reduce travel to 150mm for use on my '16 Yeti SB5 and replace the horribly harsh Fox 34.


Does it come with the HBO cone needed to convert to 27.5? If not, are they a readily available spare?


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

If these are in the original boxes and are not OEM forks, they should have the conversion parts in the box. If not, from what I have read here the Pro parts are easily available but the Expert are only available with the fork.


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## northvanguy (Sep 24, 2010)

So - in summary for these anyone know what work needs to be done straight out of the box to get them working properly? 

Or could you let me know roughly what date the instructions are in this thread?? Goes back a looonnnggg way.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

northvanguy said:


> So - in summary for these anyone know what work needs to be done straight out of the box to get them working properly?
> 
> Or could you let me know roughly what date the instructions are in this thread?? Goes back a looonnnggg way.


Depends on date of manufacture but these should pretty much be right straight out of the box.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

It looks like the price went up to 288, still a good deal. I was going to buy one last night but resisted since I already have too many forks.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

I got one last night for $240 but $288 is still a great deal.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Expert26 w/ green sticker on the box had everything needed, I'd get some rebound shims and service kit and call it dialed...nice fork and you'd have a hard time getting something else at this value (without coil spring)

Edit* maybe it was green marker?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Spend cash saved and get some quality treads, 2.8" dhr2 (clears easy)...hellofa setup:thumbsup:


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Kartwheel68 said:


> I figured I would share this here. I see Bike Wagon has 26" Mattoc Pro forks on sale for $240 on eBay. I would prefer the Expert, but at this price this is hard to pass up. They have the same fork on Amazon for $291 and it says 17 available so me and 16 other people are going to get a killer deal.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359
> 
> I am going to convert to 27.5, put in the new low friction seals, add IRT and reduce travel to 150mm for use on my '16 Yeti SB5 and replace the horribly harsh Fox 34.


I hesitated on this last night when it was at $240 and asked them if spacers etc was included. Was advised it is a brand new unit with all spacers / travel adjust etc.

Too bad they raised it over $250 (max I was willing to spend for a fork on my spare use hardtail).


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

J: said:


> Expert26 w/ green sticker on the box had everything needed, I'd get some rebound shims and service kit and call it dialed...nice fork and you'd have a hard time getting something else at this value (without coil spring)


Note that my Mattoc from a while back had a green sticker but the old air piston.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ac1000 said:


> Note that my Mattoc from a while back had a green sticker but the old air piston.


Green dot with a marker is what to look for, not the large green sticker.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

It went back to 240 for me this morning and this time I jumped on it. I already have other Mattoc/Mastodon forks as well as the so it could not hurt to have another. I'm going to replace a Minute 140 straight steer tube which could be sold for the same price.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Weird that the price is bouncing around so often, but either way $240 or $288 its a great deal, a better deal at $240 obviously.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Back at $240. I might pick one up just to have the spare parts.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Running extra thick oil will make the rebound side choke and pull air through the lower damper seal.


I guess this is aerated oil.









Its now rebuilt with Maxima 85/150 in the damper and the new seals. Tomorrow it wil get hammered in the bike park again.

Thanks for the help!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

northvanguy said:


> So - in summary for these anyone know what work needs to be done straight out of the box to get them working properly?
> 
> Or could you let me know roughly what date the instructions are in this thread?? Goes back a looonnnggg way.


Manitou has a video on YouTube called 26 to 27.5 conversion. I did it, very easy. You will want the mattoc tool kit.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

How much travel should the mattoc get with the air chambers empty. I'm only getting 156mm.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

POAH said:


> How much travel should the mattoc get with the air chambers empty. I'm only getting 156mm.


That's correct. Rubber bumper stops the last few mm. It will compress with a hard hit, but not by hand.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

northvanguy said:


> So - in summary for these anyone know what work needs to be done straight out of the box to get them working properly?
> 
> Or could you let me know roughly what date the instructions are in this thread?? Goes back a looonnnggg way.


Things to check straight out the box. For any fork.

First that it's holding air. Push up and down. Forks are aired up at the factory.
Remove lower legs horizontally and check visually for bath oil. You should see a puddle in each leg extending roughly from the end to the lower bushing.
Check the damper side shaft fully compresses easily by hand.
Check the rebound adjuster works across the stroke and changes resistance (fork uppers need to be vertical for this).
Check the compression adjuster has full range and changes resistance. If those two check out then there's no need to check oil level inside. It's good.

Depressurise air, remove top-cap and look inside for grease or oil (check which your fork is supposed to have). Check any additional air pistons and shafts are greased (IRT etc).
Check smooth stroke of air shaft across whole range. If not smooth they may need removed and lubricated.
Replace air-caps and pressurise.

Return fork to horizontal, grease wiper seals and top-bushings. Slide lower legs back on and fasten.
Pump forks, wipe off excess grease/oil and fit for riding.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Just got one of those bike wagon eBay mattocs. There's a scuff on the crown steerer. This shouldn't be something I should be worried about right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mobilenemo said:


> Just got one of those bike wagon eBay mattocs. There's a scuff on the crown steerer. This shouldn't be something I should be worried about right?


weird. if it's above where the lower headset bearing will ride, I'd say it's cosmetic.

out of curiosity does the fork show any signs of use? check for cable rub, that kind of thing.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

I dont think so, probably from sitting in the box for who knows how many years. I am not sure but I suspect these are old 2014-2015 Mattocs, not that it matters since they are easily updated to current specs.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Kartwheel68 said:


> I am not sure but I suspect these are old 2014-2015 Mattocs, not that it matters since they are easily updated to current specs.


I agree, but just to recap for everyone:
0. Buy the Mattoc service kit. You can order it from any Hayes service shop if you don't see it online and in stock.

1. Disassemble and see if you have the new air compression rod. Hayes has been sending them out for free if you don't have it, I assume they will keep on doing that for new forks going into the field the first time.

2. check damper level. use the right damper fluid!

3. buy IRT, unless you intend to use ShockWiz.

4. change the HBO cone from 26 to 27.5 if needed.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

mobilenemo said:


> Just got one of those bike wagon eBay mattocs. There's a scuff on the crown steerer. This shouldn't be something I should be worried about right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just to clarify, it has the 27.5 HBO cone in the box?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Kartwheel68 said:


> Just to clarify, it has the 27.5 HBO cone in the box?


Yes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Kartwheel68 said:


> Just to clarify, it has the 27.5 HBO cone in the box?


Yes, along with travel spacers.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Excellent. Thanks. Mine should be here today.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

ColinL said:


> I agree, but just to recap for everyone:
> 0. Buy the Mattoc service kit. You can order it from any Hayes service shop if you don't see it online and in stock.
> 
> 1. Disassemble and see if you have the new air compression rod. Hayes has been sending them out for free if you don't have it, I assume they will keep on doing that for new forks going into the field the first time.
> ...


I would suggest most hold off the IRT unless they find they need it. It really seems to benefit heavier and/or aggressive riders. My son and his friend were both running Mattocs, both about 165 pounds. My son needed the IRT, otherwise we had to run extra pressure and lose small bump sensitivity. He is a very aggressive rider. His friend doesn't use all his travel without the IRT when setup so he doesn't have too much dive. He just isn't as aggressive. It really is rider dependent.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

I got the IRT, with the fork only $240 getting the IRT only put me at $300 total so it was an easy decision for me. I'm 150lbs but I'm an old motocross racer so I'm pretty aggressive when it gets steep. I also do a lot of XC type riding, with the IRT I should be able to dial in the air spring setting for 2-3 types of riding (XC, Enduro race, etc), document my settings for the terrain and quickly adjust the air settings for that days intended use.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

ColinL said:


> 3. buy IRT, unless you intend to use ShockWiz.


How would you use shockwiz with this fork?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

ac1000 said:


> How would you use shockwiz with this fork?


? I have not bought one, but I've read a lot about them.

My understanding is that the device connects to the air inlet on any air fork or shock that does not have a variable air spring rate. Which rules out a Mattoc with IRT, as well as Fox or Rockshox forks with MRP's Ramp Control, and MRP Ribbon or Stage forks.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

I think he is asking because the Mattoc has the main air spring valve on the bottom of the fork instead of at the crown.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

ColinL said:


> ? I have not bought one, but I've read a lot about them.
> 
> My understanding is that the device connects to the air inlet on any air fork or shock that does not have a variable air spring rate. Which rules out a Mattoc with IRT, as well as Fox or Rockshox forks with MRP's Ramp Control, and MRP Ribbon or Stage forks.


You have to connect the device to the air valve.
Of course when you do this on the Mattoc that opens up the negative chamber and you can't ride the fork like that.
You could remove the IRT o-ring and connect it to the top. But then you'd be setting up the fork to run like that.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Oh yeah, in addition to it being on the bottom, I forgot it opens the negative chamber also.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Good points, sorry for missing the obvious!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> How would you use shockwiz with this fork?


With this air-cap: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/magnum-comp-air-cap-manitou.html


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cary said:


> I would suggest most hold off the IRT unless they find they need it. It really seems to benefit heavier and/or aggressive riders. My son and his friend were both running Mattocs, both about 165 pounds. My son needed the IRT, otherwise we had to run extra pressure and lose small bump sensitivity. He is a very aggressive rider. His friend doesn't use all his travel without the IRT when setup so he doesn't have too much dive. He just isn't as aggressive. It really is rider dependent.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I've recently gone from coil to IRT. Because I'm now very happy with the damper tune and can focus on the air spring curve alone.

I was running 50psi as a single chamber, with IRT I'm running 40psi lower and 60psi upper. I'm very happy with that so far. But will continue to tune and tweak.

You don't need to run huge pressure differentials to gain a benefit.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

The IRT is really a great idea because it allows you far more flexibility to tune the ramp up rate of the air spring to exactly how you want it over just volume tokens.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Mine came this afternoon, 2014 build date, with the large green sticker and small green dot. The IRT I ordered with it was in there and the HBO parts and spacers were in the bag with the manual. My steerer had those scuffs also, but I think they actually came from the cardboard hole in rests in in the box.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Just wanted to add that the fork I received looks to be new and never installed.

Does the green dot marker indicates the air piston is an updated version?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Mattocs are appearing everywhere...


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

You can buy a Mattoc from a shop cheaper than a Reba is why.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

twodogsfighting said:


> You can buy a Mattoc from a shop cheaper than a Reba is why.


Something to do with them also being one of the best 160mm forks available too, I'd suggest.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

mobilenemo said:


> Just wanted to add that the fork I received looks to be new and never installed.
> 
> Does the green dot marker indicates the air piston is an updated version?
> 
> ...


Yes, small green dot means it was updated with new piston. You should be good to go (never hurts to check fluid levels though)


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I've recently gone from coil to IRT. Because I'm now very happy with the damper tune and can focus on the air spring curve alone.
> 
> I was running 50psi as a single chamber, with IRT I'm running 40psi lower and 60psi upper. I'm very happy with that so far. But will continue to tune and tweak.
> 
> You don't need to run huge pressure differentials to gain a benefit.


This is really true. With a good shock pump, the changes you can make in ride quality are almost infinite.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> Yes, small green dot means it was updated with new piston. You should be good to go (never hurts to check fluid levels though)


I'll check when the tools and irt kit comes in! Can't wait to see the difference between this and my14 Pike

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Doug said:


> I tried my FR5 and it is too shallow. The Walls are only 8.2mm deep before it quickly tapers down to an ID too narrow to fit over the schrader valve. So too shallow and too narrow a hole.
> 
> The freehub tool linked above would work. It is 20mm deep. However the splines are shallow and likely to strip the fork end cap.
> 
> I'm guessing the 5.2 is deeper and doesn't have as narrow an ID.


I finally got around to opening it up again. Park FR 5.2 worked just fine. Munch more clearance than my old FR5.

I used an 8mm socket that in ground down with my dremel. Put the socket in my drill chuck (1/2" chuck so it fit) and spun it slowly in reverse. Used the dremel and standard grinding drum. Done in less than 10 minutes.

I have the Park flat ground sockets, so all set with the proper 24mm socket.

Setting the travel to 140mm was super easy.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

One small down side to the Mattoc is that I discovered today installing my fork that the ID is too large to thread the steerer tube for the OneUp EDC tool top cap. Not a big deal, but that sure was nice having the tool always in the steerer tube.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Kartwheel68 said:


> One small down side to the Mattoc is that I discovered today installing my fork that the ID is too large to thread the steerer tube for the OneUp EDC tool top cap. Not a big deal, but that sure was nice having the tool always in the steerer tube.


that's pretty surprising. I would have thought that the steerer tube was pretty standardized both inside and out.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ColinL said:


> that's pretty surprising. I would have thought that the steerer tube was pretty standardized both inside and out.


I recall reading somewhere (possibly buried on oneups site) that all manitou the ID is too big to use the EDC tool.

I just mount the edc tool inside my edc pump instead.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

ColinL said:


> that's pretty surprising. I would have thought that the steerer tube was pretty standardized both inside and out.


On the website they have a list of forks known to not be compatible and the Mattoc is not on there, but they also say to check first.



006_007 said:


> I recall reading somewhere (possibly buried on oneups site) that all manitou the ID is too big to use the EDC tool.
> 
> I just mount the edc tool inside my edc pump instead.


That is probably what I will do, I love the EDC tool even if its not in the steerer tube.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

BTW, I installed the fork but I have not taken it apart to convert from 26 to 27.5 internal parts yet, I couldnt wait, so I rode around a bit in the back yard (which includes a good hill with roots and rocks). I installed the IRT, set main pressure to 50, IRT to 80, set the LSC to 2 and HSC to 1 and took it for a spin. Man, this thing is pluuuuuuuush, SO much better than the Fox 34 I took off and I have not even played with the air pressures, just the 50/80 ballpark starting point.

I have had Manitou forks since my first suspension fork in 1991. Its a shame so many people get stuck on RS or Fox and wont even consider anything else. I have bikes with the original Manitou 1, Skareb, Marvels, Minutes, an R7 MRD and this Mattoc, they are all great forks, and the Mattoc is especially good considering the price it can be bought for.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

New mattoc service kit showed up with number 141-28528-K008_MANITOU. Anybody knows if it have better lower damper seal allowing to use 15ml of oil in lowers without damper overfill issues?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Looking at a magnum, what are the differences in dampers between the magnum and mattoc? Are parts interchangeable?

Edit: NVM, went back and found some older discussions.


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## Samos (Jul 16, 2009)

Hey, asking myself if I want to give a try to wide tyres. What’s your experience with bigger tyres ? Which rims also?


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I've now got the new seals installed (and a service, cheers Shockcraft), and three intense days of riding later and I'm surprised how good the fork feels. I've made virtually no changes other than increasing rebound damping as the fork has become much more sensitive. But I've got through several of my favourite (predominantly downhill) trails several seconds quicker purely because the fork is just eating everything up. I'm not sure what they've done but I like it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> New mattoc service kit showed up with number 141-28528-K008_MANITOU. Anybody knows if it have better lower damper seal allowing to use 15ml of oil in lowers without damper overfill issues?


Official word is still no. 7cc is the official figure for the long travel forks.

But do whatever you want to your own fork.

Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Official word is still no. 7cc is the official figure for the long travel forks.
> 
> But do whatever you want to your own fork.
> 
> Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


Cmon Dougal. Its not my imagination. I just read 15ml per leg in new service guide.

https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&sour...UCpMQFggoMAA&usg=AOvVaw2hXa0rMCIIZvZ3tI_ig3f3


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Well crap, I ordered a magnum but realized too late that it's a comp model.

I'm 185lbs and fairly aggressive, so I really think I "need" the pro model (??). Is it worth trying to upgrade the internals or should I just sell it off? I notice that even the leg material is different on the spec sheet....


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Cmon Dougal. Its not my imagination. I just read 15ml per leg in new service guide.
> 
> https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&sour...UCpMQFggoMAA&usg=AOvVaw2hXa0rMCIIZvZ3tI_ig3f3


My boost comp had about 20ml of oil that drained out, maybe more. Definitely more than 15 and could have been 30. Some spilled so I didn't have it all to measure.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Doug said:


> My boost comp had about 20ml of oil that drained out, maybe more. Definitely more than 15 and could have been 30. Some spilled so I didn't have it all to measure.


Back on post 3022, Dougall stated things to check on a new fork.
I have taken 10 Manitou Mastodons apart, most of them new out of the box...and have found 2ml to 20ml in each leg.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dougal said:


> Official word is still no. 7cc is the official figure for the long travel forks.
> 
> But do whatever you want to your own fork.
> 
> Sent with 100% recycled electrons.


I have been splitting the difference with 10cc with no migration issues.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cary said:


> I have been splitting the difference with 10cc with no migration issues.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Same here


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Cmon Dougal. Its not my imagination. I just read 15ml per leg in new service guide.
> 
> https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&sour...UCpMQFggoMAA&usg=AOvVaw2hXa0rMCIIZvZ3tI_ig3f3


So you did. But Ed still says 7cc for the longer travel forks and I checked just last week. He's not a fan of me using more.

The Mattoc/Magnum range has the 160mm forks which have very little dead volume in the lower legs and that is where the 7cc is supposed to be used.
The Plus forks (140mm max) which have a lot of unused volume and are where 15cc is recommended.

If you do choose to use more, check the damper oil level and air side negative chamber when you do your lower leg service.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> So you did. But Ed still says 7cc for the longer travel forks and I checked just last week. He's not a fan of me using more.
> 
> The Mattoc/Magnum range has the 160mm forks which have very little dead volume in the lower legs and that is where the 7cc is supposed to be used.
> The Plus forks (140mm max) which have a lot of unused volume and are where 15cc is recommended.
> ...


Thanks


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## bikegreece (Apr 8, 2006)

I sold my 2015 Mattoc Pro last Friday. I was super happy but I wanted a bit stiffer fork.
I've been through the forums once again and I found some great ad offerings on 36's & Pikes.
Yesterday I ordered a Mattoc Pro 2 from CR.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

With the Thanksgiving holiday and being sick I have just now got around to converting my Mattoc from 26 to 27.5. The conversion is pretty simple, the one area I wish was more clear is the 27.5 HBO piston does not have the little castellated piece held on with the circlip on it in the package. It comes in the package with the fork but it is separate from the HBO piston, I started to put rebound damper back together when I noticed the old piston had those parts and those loose parts in the package. Fortunately I caught it early so it was no big deal, but neither the paper instructions nor the video on YouTube mention having to install this part on the HBO piston.

I had no problem with my regular 6 point 24mm socket, and I bought a Park FR5 which I slotted myself, both worked fine. You can crack the air side loose and torque it with a regular deep 8mm socket and I used a 4mm allen wrench to get it the rest of the way in and out. I will buy/make a thin wall socket because getting it threaded back into the lower without a thin wall socket was a huge pain. I have a lathe so it will only take me a few minutes to turn down a cheap socket.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> Well crap, I ordered a magnum but realized too late that it's a comp model.
> 
> I'm 185lbs and fairly aggressive, so I really think I "need" the pro model (??). Is it worth trying to upgrade the internals or should I just sell it off? I notice that even the leg material is different on the spec sheet....


If it has tge Dorado air spring (newer Comp models), I would rock it. The abs+ damper in the comp is very good, you just keep to adjust the shim stack internally rather than with the knobs (if needed at all)

The leg material prevents damper swaps, thicker walls on the comp stanchions means smaller ID of the stanchion.. If you keep it, it's abs only.

If it hasany spring system other than Dorado air, just sell it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Kartwheel68 said:


> With the Thanksgiving holiday and being sick I have just now got around to converting my Mattoc from 26 to 27.5. The conversion is pretty simple, the one area I wish was more clear is the 27.5 HBO piston does not have the little castellated piece held on with the circlip on it in the package. It comes in the package with the fork but it is separate from the HBO piston, I started to put rebound damper back together when I noticed the old piston had those parts and those loose parts in the package. Fortunately I caught it early so it was no big deal, but neither the paper instructions nor the video on YouTube mention having to install this part on the HBO piston.


The Hayes/Manitou service videos on YouTube are pretty good, and I am glad to have them. But I did the conversion a month ago myself - and you're right, they don't mention that part. All in all, easy change. This fork is so easy to do basic service.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

ColinL said:


> The Hayes/Manitou service videos on YouTube are pretty good, and I am glad to have them. But I did the conversion a month ago myself - and you're right, they don't mention that part. All in all, easy change. This fork is so easy to do basic service.


The fork is super easy to work on, I bet I could change travel on it in 15 minutes. I too am glad Hayes/Manitou have those official videos on YouTube. Installing that little part is something that should be at least noted in the paper instructions if not also in the video though.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

When I received my Mattoc Pro IRT after a service performed by my LBS, the air pressure in the main chamber was 10 bar/145 PSI. This is nearly 25% above the max allowed pressure of 8.3 bar. The fork had been at the LBS for a week before I collected it. 
Will this have damaged anything and how can I check if everything is still ok?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> When I received my Mattoc Pro IRT after a service performed by my LBS, the air pressure in the main chamber was 10 bar/145 PSI. This is nearly 25% above the max allowed pressure of 8.3 bar. The fork had been at the LBS for a week before I collected it.
> Will this have damaged anything and how can I check if everything is still ok?


If it still holds air it'll be okay.

But that's ridiculous. It must have taken them 15 minutes on a shock pump to do that!


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

When I received it the travel was maybe 80mm. I think they thought the pressure was too low and increased it to increase travel. 
I then removed the lowers and found out that the damper rod pulled back and would not stay extended. After depressing the air valve with the rod extended the problem was solved.
It sucks to have a Manitou fork in the Netherlands. The distributor themselves did not know about the updated air piston and 'forgot' to replace it despite specific requests (yes multiple) to do so.
The LBS then ordered the piston themselves and installed it for me, but returned the fork with 145 PSI and 80mm travel...
I still would like someone to convert my fork to 27.5 but am not sure the LBS would do a better job then me...

Normally this would put me off of buying the same brand again. The only problem is, I just replaced my 26 inch bike with a 27.5 one that was build with a Fox 34 Performance GRIP fork. After a short ride it is already clear that the performance is nowhere near the Mattoc, maybe not even in the same universe... Hence my desire to convert the Mattoc to 27.5. The unavailability of a clamp and the right torque wrench for the damper side keeps me from doing it myself...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mac1987 said:


> When I received my Mattoc Pro IRT after a service performed by my LBS, the air pressure in the main chamber was 10 bar/145 PSI. This is nearly 25% above the max allowed pressure of 8.3 bar. The fork had been at the LBS for a week before I collected it.
> Will this have damaged anything and how can I check if everything is still ok?


The max pressure is what it is so the pressures don't get crazy high like 400 psi at the end of the stroke. When riding at normal pressure, it will hit 140psi pretty easily. I highly doubt any damage was done unless it was ridden at that pressure.

Still crazy they would do put it that high.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks for the reassurance. This eases my mind somewhat.
However, I agree that an official Manitou supplying LBS should not let this happen.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mac1987 said:


> When I received it the travel was maybe 80mm. I think they thought the pressure was too low and increased it to increase travel.
> I then removed the lowers and found out that the damper rod pulled back and would not stay extended. After depressing the air valve with the rod extended the problem was solved.
> It sucks to have a Manitou fork in the Netherlands. The distributor themselves did not know about the updated air piston and 'forgot' to replace it despite specific requests (yes multiple) to do so.
> The LBS then ordered the piston themselves and installed it for me, but returned the fork with 145 PSI and 80mm travel...
> ...


You can covert it to 27.5 pretty easily. Just buy the tools and do it yourself. Just take your time

You can just do the spacer under the rubber bottom out number if you wanted to avoid taking the damper out. The HBO circuit wouldn't be as effective, but it wouldn't hurt anything ( the same can not be said in reverse)


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks, that might be the best temporary solution. Would this render the HBO completely useless or just less effective?


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Mac1987 said:


> Thanks, that might be the best temporary solution. Would this render the HBO completely useless or just less effective?


I'd imagine a good bit less pronounced but would still produce damping at bottom out but kick in later and provide less peak damping.

I say go for it as a temporary solution.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Mac1987 said:


> I just replaced my 26 inch bike with a 27.5 one that was build with a Fox 34 Performance GRIP fork. After a short ride it is already clear that the performance is nowhere near the Mattoc, maybe not even in the same universe...


I agree with others that storing the fork with 125% of max pressure should be totally harmless.

Interesting observation about the Fox 34 GRIP! Any chance it will perform much better once broken in? That was certainly my experience with the Mattoc. You're in a great position to compare them back to back--most reviews I've seen of the GRIP have been quite positive, so I'd be curious how it measures up for you once broken in. What were its faults compared with the Mattoc?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

My gripes with the Fox 34 are mostly the following:
1. No small bump compliance whatsoever > will most likely improve once broken in (although the Mattoc when fresh out of the box after being stored for 3 years was miles better in this regard)
2. Heavy spike when hitting a large square bump
3. Being overwhelmed when hitting multiple bumps in a row
4. Only 3 compression damper settings, of which 1 fully open and 1 nearly locked out. 
5. No HSC settings

While complaint number 1 might be solved when broken in, 2 and 3 seem to be damper related and 4 and 5 can't be fixed without buying a top of the line Fox 36 for 2 to 3 times the price of a Mattoc.
The damper is in the fully open position, the air pressure was tried both at and significantly below recommended PSI and rebound was tried both fast and slow.
It seems it's always the same story with Fox forks: every new generation seems to be the best thing since sliced bread according to professional (magazine and website) reviews, but in practice turns out to be decent but nothing special, especially in view of the MSRP. 

Things might improve with internal tuning, but as it is I'm not impressed, especially as the MSRP is nearly 1K in the Netherlands. Fortunately it was part of a bike I am otherwise happy with and I can convert the Mattoc, which performed wonderfully in Alpe d'Huez last summer.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> I agree with others that storing the fork with 125% of max pressure should be totally harmless.
> 
> Interesting observation about the Fox 34 GRIP! Any chance it will perform much better once broken in? That was certainly my experience with the Mattoc. You're in a great position to compare them back to back--most reviews I've seen of the GRIP have been quite positive, so I'd be curious how it measures up for you once broken in. What were its faults compared with the Mattoc?


I just got a new bike with a 36 with the fit grip damper. I won't have it long, but I will be giving it some thrashing. Out of the box, it takes significantly more force to initiate movement compared to my mattoc.

I don't have high hopes, and my performance expectations are significantly higher than an average rider, so we will see.

I have no plans on riding the fox factory DPS shock at all. That will be replaced before the first ride.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Mac1987 said:


> It seems it's always the same story with Fox forks: every new generation seems to be the best thing since sliced bread according to professional (magazine and website) reviews, but in practice turns out to be decent but nothing special, especially in view of the MSRP.


Thanks to you and mullen for the input--interesting stuff. And yeah, somebody pointed out how, with Fox, you never knew how crappy the fork/shock was until you read the reviews of the NEXT generation of Fox fork/shock, where they explained how much better it was than the not-very-good previous version, ha.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

phile said:


> Thanks to you and mullen for the input--interesting stuff. And yeah, somebody pointed out how, with Fox, you never knew how crappy the fork/shock was until you read the reviews of the NEXT generation of Fox fork/shock, where they explained how much better it was than the not-very-good previous version, ha.


LOL, true story.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

phile said:


> Interesting observation about the Fox 34 GRIP! Any chance it will perform much better once broken in? That was certainly my experience with the Mattoc. You're in a great position to compare them back to back--most reviews I've seen of the GRIP have been quite positive, so I'd be curious how it measures up for you once broken in. What were its faults compared with the Mattoc?


That's mostly because the GRIP damper replaced the EVO damper, and that one was truly a useless piece of junk. Any half functional damper is an improvement over the EVO damper.

IMO Fox blew it with the GRIP damper. Fundamentally, it's the same as the excellent DBC damper used in my Marzocchi 350 NCR but Fox crippled its performance. And thanks to the way Fox did it, it's not something that can be easily fixed by a home mechanic, it'll take some shim stack work along with replacement and/or machining of various internal parts.

To be honest, I'm not a fan at all of RS or Fox. The performance isn't there and the prices are stupid.


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## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

aerius said:


> IMO Fox blew it with the GRIP damper. ...Fox crippled its performance. .


Highly unlikely that the limits on the GRIP damper are a mistake. How can they offer the next generation of greatest thing ever if the current one isn't somehow broken?

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-4-way-adjustable-fork-damper-crankworx-whistler-2017.html


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

PhillipJ said:


> Highly unlikely that the limits on the GRIP damper are a mistake. How can they offer the next generation of greatest thing ever if the current one isn't somehow broken?
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-4-way-adjustable-fork-damper-crankworx-whistler-2017.html


Good point. And that's why Fox is still on my boycott list.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Mattocs on sale again for $240.



Kartwheel68 said:


> I figured I would share this here. I see Bike Wagon has 26" Mattoc Pro forks on sale for $240 on eBay. I would prefer the Expert, but at this price this is hard to pass up. They have the same fork on Amazon for $291 and it says 17 available so me and 16 other people are going to get a killer deal.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359
> 
> I am going to convert to 27.5, put in the new low friction seals, add IRT and reduce travel to 150mm for use on my '16 Yeti SB5 and replace the horribly harsh Fox 34.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Mattocs on sale again for $240.


Showing at $400, any link? Thanks.

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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

That ebay link i have there is currently at 240

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359



Cary said:


> Showing at $400, any link? Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## thedrizzle (Feb 17, 2012)

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## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

PhillipJ said:


> Highly unlikely that the limits on the GRIP damper are a mistake. How can they offer the next generation of greatest thing ever if the current one isn't somehow broken?
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-4-way-adjustable-fork-damper-crankworx-whistler-2017.html


Even better than that is the thread about people buying their $1100 fork and needing to spend another $300-500 to make it feel ok. The MTB community is full of stupid sheep. It really is.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

006_007 said:


> That ebay link i have there is currently at 240
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Mattoc-Pro-26-MTB-Fork-160mm-15mm-Matte-Black-Tapered/132360436359


Thanks. Grabbed one. Going to run on my son's hardtail at 120mm and can the Fox 32 fit 4 on it.

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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Trajan said:


> Even better than that is the thread about people buying their $1100 fork and needing to spend another $300-500 to make it feel ok. The MTB community is full of stupid sheep. It really is.


It is shameful that Fox has such terrible QC that the 36 air piston varies so much in size that some forks are extremely harsh. People just want the name or don't know better. My buddy insisted on a 36, now wants a Diamond after riding mine. It just goes to show how screwy the market is. Manitou, DVO and MRP all have amazing customer service and arguably make better products than Fox or Rockshox for the same money or less. Despite this, sales for all three combined are probably 10% of Fox.

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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cary said:


> It is shameful that Fox has such terrible QC that the 36 air piston varies so much in size that some forks are extremely harsh. People just want the name or don't know better. My buddy insisted on a 36, now wants a Diamond after riding mine. It just goes to show how screwy the market is. Manitou, DVO and MRP all have amazing customer service and arguably make better products than Fox or Rockshox for the same money or less. Despite this, sales for all three combined are probably 10% of Fox.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


It is amazing how much in bed with Fox all the MTB mags are. They must know that the Fox stuff is crap yet they keep pushing them. I have not ridden a DVO but my Mattoc and the MRP I have ridden, are fantastic and much better than the Fox crap.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> You can covert it to 27.5 pretty easily. Just buy the tools and do it yourself. Just take your time
> 
> You can just do the spacer under the rubber bottom out number if you wanted to avoid taking the damper out. The HBO circuit wouldn't be as effective, but it wouldn't hurt anything ( the same can not be said in reverse)


I I have a mattoc from a radon slide team edition which was very strong damped in that edition. 
Now with Irt installed and riding pressures between, 55-77 to 120-150 irt the fork is much to harsh at 90 kilo. Initially was well as in high speed stuff and the transition between lsc and hsc. Could you post an optimized shimstack please? I am sure you already have something nice up your sleeve.
Thank you in advance


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Mac1987 said:


> My gripes with the Fox 34 are mostly the following:
> 1. No small bump compliance whatsoever > will most likely improve once broken in (although the Mattoc when fresh out of the box after being stored for 3 years was miles better in this regard)
> 2. Heavy spike when hitting a large square bump
> 3. Being overwhelmed when hitting multiple bumps in a row
> ...


I rode my 2017 Fox 34 with GRIP damper for 10 months and I can tell you that it never got better with break in time. I agree with 1,2 and 3 especially. I could get by with 3 settings IF the open setting was decently plush, and its not, its more like an XC tuned fork. My brand new Mattoc with the original non-low friction seals and zero ride time is way more responsive to small bumps with better initial breakaway than the 34.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Hrmm, just stripped the air-spring nut with a slotted FR5.2--either the nut strips quite easily, or I turned it the wrong direction (got rewired by the previous two clockwise operations??), or I'm just a ham-fisted hack (or some combination of above). Do I have any decent options here? I tried some teflon tape around the cassette tool, but no luck. I've now liberally applied threadlock to the cassette tool while it's sitting in the nut and am letting it dry overnight to see if that adds enough grip to get by. I was patting myself on the back for getting the first two correct. Dumbass.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

$240 Mattoc on the kid's hardtail set to 120mm. Selling the Fox 32 on pinkbike if anyone wants one. I had to walk him through dropping the lowers to shorten and install the fork, since I can't really use my left hand.









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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Can I get the Cayenne?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> Can I get the Cayenne?


6 Speed! Took me a while to find.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

phile said:


> Hrmm, just stripped the air-spring nut with a slotted FR5.2--either the nut strips quite easily, or I turned it the wrong direction (got rewired by the previous two clockwise operations??), or I'm just a ham-fisted hack (or some combination of above). Do I have any decent options here? I tried some teflon tape around the cassette tool, but no luck. I've now liberally applied threadlock to the cassette tool while it's sitting in the nut and am letting it dry overnight to see if that adds enough grip to get by. I was patting myself on the back for getting the first two correct. Dumbass.


Correction, I was using a Park FR1.2. Disaster--the splines are are just tall enough to make it seem like it will work, but it won't, it just strips the nut. Not sure how I decided the FR1.2 was what I needed--I bought it specifically for this task. I was able to cannibalize an old Nashbar cassette tool to salvage the job. Proceed with caution, or suck it up and buy the Manitou kit. The Manitou kit seems overpriced, but a lot of that has to do with severely underpaying for the fork itself.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

phile said:


> Correction, I was using a Park FR1.2. Disaster--the splines are are just tall enough to make it seem like it will work, but it won't, it just strips the nut. Not sure how I decided the FR1.2 was what I needed--I bought it specifically for this task. I was able to cannibalize an old Nashbar cassette tool to salvage the job. Proceed with caution, or suck it up and buy the Manitou kit. The Manitou kit seems overpriced, but a lot of that has to do with severely underpaying for the fork itself.


I too nearly used a freewheel tool. I used a regular FR5 (not slotted) and compressed the shaft. It fits over with room to spare. No need to slot it. My 15+ year old cassette tool is not deep enough. You need one of the newer ones.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Doug said:


> I too nearly used a freewheel tool. I used a regular FR5 (not slotted) and compressed the shaft. It fits over with room to spare. No need to slot it. My 15+ year old cassette tool is not deep enough. You need one of the newer ones.


I use the FR5 and prefer it to the Manitou tool which wants to compress and slip on occasion.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

After finding the courage to replace the HBO cone with the 27.5 version, the rebound knob become stuck. This happened even before I opened the rebound assembly, just after removing the lowers, placing the spacers on the airside and putting everything back together. 
I have now opened the rebound assembly and replaced the HBO cone, but the rebound adjuster will not turn without excessive force. How could this have happened and do I now need a new rebound assembly (costing one third of the total fork price...) ?


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

*Reattaching the lowers??*

Those of you who can disassemble/reassemble a Mattoc in your sleep--how do you start the threads on the damper side? The spring side is easy because of the air pressure, but my damper rod just wants to spin in place without threading.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

phile said:


> Those of you who can disassemble/reassemble a Mattoc in your sleep--how do you start the threads on the damper side? The spring side is easy because of the air pressure, but my damper rod just wants to spin in place without threading.


When you insert the Hex key, tilt it slightly, this will create some friction and will allows you to pull the damper shaft while rotating it counter clock wise, don't forget it, it's counter clock wise. It may took you a couple of times to get the hang of it.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Aglo said:


> When you insert the Hex key, tilt it slightly, this will create some friction and will allows you to pull the dumper shaft while rotating it counter clock wise, don't forget it, it's counter clock wise. It may took you a couple of times to get the hang of it.


It also helps to crank the low and high speed compression shut to get some resistance.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Aglo said:


> When you insert the Hex key, tilt it slightly, this will create some friction and will allows you to pull the damper shaft while rotating it counter clock wise, don't forget it, it's counter clock wise. It may took you a couple of times to get the hang of it.


Huh, I was indeed trying to do that--I guess I'll get better at it with practice. Thanks.



Cary said:


> It also helps to crank the low and high speed compression shut to get some resistance.
> 
> Oh, good tip! But the knobs are still off, right? Do you set it before disassembly, or put the knobs on temporarily, or what?
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cary said:


> 6 Speed! Took me a while to find.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


That is rare. I have always loved this video of a Cayenne racing a bunch of garbage SUVs on a track. Absolutely hilarious.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> I just got a new bike with a 36 with the fit grip damper. I won't have it long, but I will be giving it some thrashing. Out of the box, it takes significantly more force to initiate movement compared to my mattoc.
> 
> I don't have high hopes, and my performance expectations are significantly higher than an average rider, so we will see.
> 
> I have no plans on riding the fox factory DPS shock at all. That will be replaced before the first ride.


Mullen? 
I would be really happy about a recommendation from you as you certainly have a comp shimstack for the mattoc which is pretty nailed 

@Dougul

A proposal from you?


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## jjyoung (Jul 14, 2008)

Does anyone know the widest 27.5" tire that fits in the 26" mattoc pro that's converted to 27.5"?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

jjyoung said:


> Does anyone know the widest 27.5" tire that fits in the 26" mattoc pro that's converted to 27.5"?


I think it was mentioned that the 26" lowers have a 555 axle to arch, where as the proper 27.5 has a 565 axle to arch. Pics of the 27.5 show a 2.8 tire just clearing it. Losing 10mm of arch clearance will probably be a no-go for plus tires. But not having either in my possession, I cant really comment with certainty.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Vespasianus said:


> That is rare. I have always loved this video of a Cayenne racing a bunch of garbage SUVs on a track. Absolutely hilarious.


It handles amazingly well for a lifted station wagon. It stinks as an off road vehicle (I don't care what the Porsche weinees think). A great trip car, but I still took my 96 Toyota Land Cruiser with 250k miles to Whistler this summer, a 2000 mile round trip.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jjyoung said:


> Does anyone know the widest 27.5" tire that fits in the 26" mattoc pro that's converted to 27.5"?


An E13 TRS+ comfortably clears, as does a Maxxis DHF 2.6 (only 2mm wider). Both on 30mm internal rims.

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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

jjyoung said:


> Does anyone know the widest 27.5" tire that fits in the 26" mattoc pro that's converted to 27.5"?


Not the best pictures but this is my 26" Pro fork with a 27.5 DHF 2.5 on 30mm rims. Plenty of room even with a mud guard, more clearance than the picture shows.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

The 26 and 27.5 lowers are the same aren't they?

My 27.5 has a DHF2.6 with a mudgaurd fitted (29mm iw rim). I can only run super low tread 2.8s (i.e. Rocket Ron, without a mudgaurd) and it's tight.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

phreeky said:


> The 26 and 27.5 lowers are the same aren't they?


No, they have different offsets and I assume more clearance at the arch on the 27.5.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Kartwheel68 said:


> No, they have different offsets and I assume more clearance at the arch on the 27.5.


If I Remember correctly, the offset is in the CSU and the lowers are identical. There is no tire clearance diffrence at the crown.

I will double check, or I'm sure dougal will chime in. Pretty sure I'm correct


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Fork offset is in the uppers. So clearance to the crown at bottom-out might differ, but that shouldn't change clearance to the arch.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

Yes, that is right, dont know what I was thinking.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

GuitsBoy said:


> I think it was mentioned that the 26" lowers have a 555 axle to arch, where as the proper 27.5 has a 565 axle to arch. Pics of the 27.5 show a 2.8 tire just clearing it. Losing 10mm of arch clearance will probably be a no-go for plus tires. But not having either in my possession, I cant really comment with certainty.


No, they're both 555 since the first day ;-) The 27.5 only has 10mm less travel, whereas the 26 offers 170mm stroke


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> If I Remember correctly, the offset is in the CSU and the lowers are identical. There is no tire clearance diffrence at the crown.
> 
> I will double check, or I'm sure dougal will chime in. Pretty sure I'm correct


Yep, dead right. Lowers are the same for 26" and 27". Difference is 10mm more downtravel (changed with HBO cone and 10mm spacer under bumper) and less crown offset in the 26's.

Personally I think less crown offset is a good thing.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

bansaiman said:


> No, they're both 555 since the first day ;-) The 27.5 only has 10mm less travel, whereas the 26 offers 170mm stroke


Yeah, after thinking about it, that number must have been axle to crown, not axle to arch. So the extra travel being the difference would make sense.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> If I Remember correctly, the offset is in the CSU and the lowers are identical. There is no tire clearance diffrence at the crown.
> 
> I will double check, or I'm sure dougal will chime in. Pretty sure I'm correct


Would be really grateful about an answer and info from you about the optimized shimstack ;-)


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

It is just a 26 mattoc not being allowed to dive down to 170mm travel by a spacer and different HBO cone


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> It is just a 26 mattoc not being allowed to dive down to 170mm travel by a spacer and different HBO cone


I thought a 26 mattoc is just a 27.5 without a spacer and a different HBO cone!


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Could anybody please check distance between seal and crown like marked on attached picture for mattoc 160mm 27,5?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

180



nikon255 said:


> Could anybody please check distance between seal and crown like marked on attached picture for mattoc 160mm 27,5?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Great, thank you!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Great, thank you!


Whats going on with that cap in the picture? I have only been inside my mattocs a handful of times, and it doesnt quite look like that?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Whats going on with that cap in the picture? I have only been inside my mattocs a handful of times, and it doesnt quite look like that?


Looks like a coil wrapped in (too much) heat-shrink.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Which is why he cut out part of the photo?
Didnt want to show the adapter or who made it?

Top secret stuffs here!



Dougal said:


> Looks like a coil wrapped in (too much) heat-shrink.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Maybe an IVA turned IRT via coil spring.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

jjyoung said:


> Does anyone know the widest 27.5" tire that fits in the 26" mattoc pro that's converted to 27.5"?


I have a few rides on my newly converted 26" fork and a 27.5x2.5WT DHF on 35mm i.w. WTB asym rim. I run low tire pressures. I've buzzed the arch a couple of times on flat landings. I'm glad I didn't go with a 2.6" DHF.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

That's interesting, did it buzz the centre or side of the arch? Could be the 35mm rim that does it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I have a Vittoria Morsa 26x2.3 up front and I briefly had a MuckyNutz reverse-arch specific fender and had to remove it. It had very little clearance on the shoulder knobs and rubbed twice landing jumps. Probably wheel flex.

It did this once when set to 26" and then again when I converted to 27.5. So, off came the MuckyNutz.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

phreeky said:


> That's interesting, did it buzz the centre or side of the arch? Could be the 35mm rim that does it.


Hmm. This is what the tire looks like at 28 miles, inflated to ~50 psi. The mold nipples are gone on both rows of knobs on the brake side of the tire (at least on this section of the tire).

The dish of the rim is visibly off (can't tell from the pic)--there's ~1-2mm less clearance on the nipple-free side. I will take the wheel back to my wheel builder and demand that he fix it. He is inexperienced (5th wheel built), doesn't own a truing stand, was drinking moderately during some of the work (which was spread over multiple evenings), and was initially working without benefit of a tensiometer, because his new tensiometer was taking forEVER to get to California from Chain Reaction during the holiday rush. He also didn't follow a careful protocol for bedding the spokes--I just spot-checked the tension on a handful, and some have drifted out of range by a couple of units. So with a wheel built by a pro, or even a competent amateur, a 2.6" DHF might have no trouble. I personally am stuck with this wheel builder for the rest of my life, so it's probably good to have the .1" cushion--though he will presumably get better at his craft with a little more practice. I will insist that he fix the wheel today before going for a ride, and will report back after a little more mileage!









Edit--I'm disappointed to realize that the spoke length calculator at #1 Wheel Building SPOKE CALCULATOR Now Online | PROWHEELBUILDER didn't take into account the asymmetrical rim, despite having the exact rim in its dropdown menu. It appears it calculated the spoke length based on the distance from each flange to the centerline of the rim.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

phile said:


> Hmm. This is what the tire looks like at 28 miles, inflated to ~50 psi. The mold nipples are gone on both rows of knobs on the brake side of the tire (at least on this section of the tire).
> 
> The dish of the rim is visibly off (can't tell from the pic)--there's ~1-2mm less clearance on the nipple-free side. I will take the wheel back to my wheel builder and demand that he fix it. He is inexperienced (5th wheel built), doesn't own a truing stand, was drinking moderately during some of the work (which was spread over multiple evenings), and was initially working without benefit of a tensiometer, because his new tensiometer was taking forEVER to get to California from Chain Reaction during the holiday rush. He also didn't follow a careful protocol for bedding the spokes--I just spot-checked the tension on a handful, and some have drifted out of range by a couple of units. So with a wheel built by a pro, or even a competent amateur, a 2.6" DHF might have no trouble. I personally am stuck with this wheel builder for the rest of my life, so it's probably good to have the .1" cushion--though he will presumably get better at his craft with a little more practice. I will insist that he fix the wheel today before going for a ride, and will report back after a little more mileage!
> 
> ...


This may be post of the year. I am not sure whether to laugh at you or cry for you.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

The dish between truing stands and forks, or fork to fork can easily be off a mm or two even for a seasoned builder, IMO. Even if the spoke calculator did not take the dish into consideration, youre pretty close to dished correctly, and theres a good chance you can pull the wheel over 1-2 mm with the spokes you already have. If not, you can add nipple washers to gain you an extra turn if necessary. But more importantly than dish, make sure your tension is correct and even. 

But honestly, if you're familiar enough with the building process to micromanage your wheel builder to this degree, why did you not just build them up yourself?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Pretty sure he is his own wheelbuilder which is why he is "stuck with him for the rest of my life"



GuitsBoy said:


> The dish between truing stands and forks, or fork to fork can easily be off a mm or two even for a seasoned builder, IMO. Even if the spoke calculator did not take the dish into consideration, youre pretty close to dished correctly, and theres a good chance you can pull the wheel over 1-2 mm with the spokes you already have. If not, you can add nipple washers to gain you an extra turn if necessary. But more importantly than dish, make sure your tension is correct and even.
> 
> But honestly, if you're familiar enough with the building process to micromanage your wheel builder to this degree, why did you not just build them up yourself?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

006_007 said:


> Pretty sure he is his own wheelbuilder which is why he is "stuck with him for the rest of my life"


I skimmed his post too lightly.

Now I'm embarrassed.

I was thinking to myself, God, what kind of person is so demanding and overbearing as to monitor alcohol intake, when they know their wheel builder is inexperienced. I'm gonna chalk this oversight to last night's bout of insomnia, leaving me walking around like zombie today. My apologies for any asshattery I may have contributed to this thread.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Wheel flex is also a real thing. Clearing static does not mean it'll clear under a hard impact!


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I'd be worried if I'd at least heard it buzz or seen a sign of it rubbing, but my DHF2.6 on Flow mk3 has been fine. I've hit some decent drops on DH trails with it and not had an issue, however I'm not very heavy which could be a factor. I run around 17psi.

I also still have a mudguard fitted, so it's not THAT tight. I need to remove it when running a Rocket Ron 2.8 (biggest tyre I dare run).


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> I was thinking to myself, God, what kind of person is so demanding and overbearing as to monitor alcohol intake, when they know their wheel builder is inexperienced.


Ha, my wheel builder appreciates you looking out for him, and raises his beer to you!

The complaint about the calculator was kind of an aside--based on the info it gave me, I had bought spokes that were 1mm different for each side. When I put the wheel together, I used the longer spokes on the brake side, because the spoke holes are offset quite a bit toward the drivetrain side. I didn't realize until today that the calculator had wanted me to use the longer spokes on the _other_ side, because it assumed my spoke holes were in the center of the rim. The fact that the wheel was in the calculator's database gave me false confidence about the info it was spitting out. I should have just bought 32 identical spokes--it would have simplified things for my novice wheel builder once he cracked beer #2.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

phreeky said:


> I'd be worried if I'd at least heard it buzz or seen a sign of it rubbing, but my DHF2.6 on Flow mk3 has been fine. I've hit some decent drops on DH trails with it and not had an issue, however I'm not very heavy which could be a factor. I run around 17psi.
> 
> I also still have a mudguard fitted, so it's not THAT tight. I need to remove it when running a Rocket Ron 2.8 (biggest tyre I dare run).


I'm gonna speculate that my 6mm wider rim is the difference between your experience and mine. I weigh ~135 lbs and have been running the 2.5WT DHF at 16-17 psi so far. It could also be influenced by my dish being slightly off. My spoke tension might be lower too, and the rim itself might be inherently flexier. Cheers!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Wheel flex is also a real thing. Clearing static does not mean it'll clear under a hard impact!


Why am I constantly ignored when asking for a proposal for an optimized compression stack? ;-)


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## Dombush (Dec 17, 2017)

*Mattoc's - best kept secret in suspension*

Been lurking on this thread for some time after fitting a new set of Mattoc's to one of my bikes.

After a small amount of relatively easy internal fettling (thanks to Dougal's various posts) they're spot-on. At a fraction of the cost of new Pike's I'd recommend them to anyone. Rode them back to back against my old open bath Fox 32's they're light years ahead.
My observations:-

Pro's

Easy to adjust to required stroke
Completely home serviceable by any experienced mechanic
All the popular adjustments and they work
Air spring pressure guidance spot-on
Good small bump compliance
Stiff enough for for your average rider
Con's

Some internal fettling required to get running A1
Minutely heavier than the competition

Hayes is the only manufacturer that I've seen publish custom valving (shim pack) information alongside the respective shock dyno plots. Top marks Hayes!

I would buy another set for my son but i reckon this is the only way to keep ahead.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dombush said:


> I would buy another set for my son but i reckon this is the only way to keep ahead.


Good luck with that. I used to think the same thing, but nowadays he could beat me on a tricycle.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

I pulled the damper from my wife's 2017 (2018?) Mattoc Comp Boost 27.5. It says ABS+ on the top cap, but the damper doesn't look quite like the one on the ABS damper thread. This one has a gold piston and the end of the shaft has a different nut. This one has a cylinder with three holes.

The shim stack looks to be the Trail CV-11711-01: Velocity shim, small ring shim, platform shim. I forgot to measure the OD and thickness. That should be a good for her, low platform and HSC.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Doug said:


> I pulled the damper from my wife's 2017 (2018?) Mattoc Comp Boost 27.5. It says ABS+ on the top cap, but the damper doesn't look quite like the one on the ABS damper thread. This one has a gold piston and the end of the shaft has a different nut. This one has a cylinder with three holes.
> 
> The shim stack looks to be the Trail CV-11711-01: Velocity shim, small ring shim, platform shim. I forgot to measure the OD and thickness. That should be a good for her, low platform and HSC.
> View attachment 1174384


It's not going to look identical to the abs+ thread. The fork in that thread is a 32mm stanchioned fork and is from 2010. The piece on the bottom is one of the HBO cones. Consider it an updated version of the ABS+ damper


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> It's not going to look identical to the abs+ thread. The fork in that thread is a 32mm stanchioned fork and is from 2010. The piece on the bottom is one of the HBO cones. Consider it an updated version of the ABS+ damper


Does this mean it has some level of HBO? Or just using similar parts but not the whole system so it has the standard bumper and nothing more?

I did find a tuning kit that shows red, green, and gold/yellow pistons. Anyone know the difference between pistons? HSC/LSC valve sizes? Diameter for different size forks?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Doug said:


> Does this mean it has some level of HBO? Or just using similar parts but not the whole system so it has the standard bumper and nothing more?
> 
> I did find a tuning kit that shows red, green, and gold/yellow pistons. Anyone know the difference between pistons? HSC/LSC valve sizes? Diameter for different size forks?


It has a preset HBO system. No adjustment, but it is there and functions.

The old abs+ kit had diffrent colored pistons for diffrent forks based on the inside diameter of the stanchions. (Based on stanchion materials having diffrent ID's). To my knowledge, there is no diffrence in valving ports between pistons, only the piston OD is diffrent.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

First real ride for her and she noticed it was smooth deep in the travel. No spiking like the Pike RC. 

Two odd things though:
The rebound range seems slow. Wide open it is slow enough I can compress the fork and remove my hands and not even close to the front wheel lifting. It is quite easy to get your hands out of the way too. My diamond and her pike are much faster to the point of being pogo stick fast. The slowest setting is so slow I can’t imagine using it. The fast option now might be fast enough but I definitely would like faster to try. 

When it does rebound I can pull up the crown and get it to extend another 4-5mm. 

It is brand new so may just be stictuon the goes away in time with use.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

*Fork oils*

For any lightweights considering trying a lighter oil, just fyi--

When I changed my fork oil, I switched from Maxima 5 wt (15.8 cst) to 3 wt (14.0 cst). I also upgraded to the new seals, so I don't know how much that affected the feel, but the overall effect was drastic--I had been running everything wide open (@33psi), and now it felt like I needed to max out the rebound and HSC to get in the same ballpark. So I removed a very small amount of oil and replaced it with 7 wt (21.00 cst). It still felt underdamped so I did that a second time. Now it feels great, though I'm still sorting out the setup, and have been trying 40 psi. The downside, other than the hassle, is that I'll have to start over on the setup the next time I change the oil, since I now have a mystery custom viscosity.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

phile said:


> For any lightweights considering trying a lighter oil, just fyi--
> 
> When I changed my fork oil, I switched from Maxima 5 wt (15.8 cst) to 3 wt (14.0 cst). I also upgraded to the new seals, so I don't know how much that affected the feel, but the overall effect was drastic--I had been running everything wide open (@33psi), and now it felt like I needed to max out the rebound and HSC to get in the same ballpark. So I removed a very small amount of oil and replaced it with 7 wt (21.00 cst). It still felt underdamped so I did that a second time. Now it feels great, though I'm still sorting out the setup, and have been trying 40 psi. The downside, other than the hassle, is that I'll have to start over on the setup the next time I change the oil, since I now have a mystery custom viscosity.


How much do you weigh?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

phile said:


> For any lightweights considering trying a lighter oil, just fyi--
> 
> When I changed my fork oil, I switched from Maxima 5 wt (15.8 cst) to 3 wt (14.0 cst). I also upgraded to the new seals, so I don't know how much that affected the feel, but the overall effect was drastic--I had been running everything wide open (@33psi), and now it felt like I needed to max out the rebound and HSC to get in the same ballpark. So I removed a very small amount of oil and replaced it with 7 wt (21.00 cst). It still felt underdamped so I did that a second time. Now it feels great, though I'm still sorting out the setup, and have been trying 40 psi. The downside, other than the hassle, is that I'll have to start over on the setup the next time I change the oil, since I now have a mystery custom viscosity.


There is so little difference in the viscosity of those oils, the difference you are feeling is from reduced seal drag.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Cary said:


> There is so little difference in the viscosity of those oils, the difference you are feeling is from reduced seal drag.


Wow! That's really impressive--it's a completely different fork now. I was quite surprised at how much the oil seemed to affect it--good to know that the oil wasn't really a factor. I'm always accidentally changing too many variables.

Doug, I weigh 135 without gear.


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

I'm back on a Mattoc Pro and pleaeed so far.

I had a pair on my Ti Switchback but they looked a bit odd so I swapped to 350NCR's but I struggled with the set up (nice and plush but easy to bottom out or better bottom out resistance but not enough small bump compliance). Switched to a pair of Yari's with a Luftkappe installed which seemed better but still wasn't happy especially on fast repeated hits where the fork really struggled to recover.

I was convinced that a pair of coil MRP's or the coil 27.5 Ohlins were going to be the answer but then thought back to how much I liked my Mattocs I had on my Stanton. They were cheap at CRC plus my BC discount, I thought I'd give these a whirl again on my Scout. I may add the IRT in the future, but will see. They appear to be bloody plush even after a few hours riding and look much better with the black stanchions.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mindmap3 said:


> I was convinced that a pair of coil MRP's or the coil 27.5 Ohlins


I'm not sure Öhlins have made a coil 650B fork yet? Well a proper one, not the 29/650B Fattie.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mindmap3 said:


> I'm back on a Mattoc Pro and pleaeed so far.
> 
> I had a pair on my Ti Switchback but they looked a bit odd so I swapped to 350NCR's but I struggled with the set up (nice and plush but easy to bottom out or better bottom out resistance but not enough small bump compliance). Switched to a pair of Yari's with a Luftkappe installed which seemed better but still wasn't happy especially on fast repeated hits where the fork really struggled to recover.
> 
> ...


Nice looking bike. Recommend first getting the new seals, which may not be installed on your fork. Makes a huge difference in small bump compliance. IRT is fantastic and really can give you any ride you want.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Mullen?
> I would be really happy about a recommendation from you as you certainly have a comp shimstack for the mattoc which is pretty nailed
> 
> @Dougul
> ...


I just saw this, sorry.

I pretty much run the stock mattoc stacks. I have tried others, but keep going back to stock. It just works.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> For any lightweights considering trying a lighter oil, just fyi--
> 
> When I changed my fork oil, I switched from Maxima 5 wt (15.8 cst) to 3 wt (14.0 cst). I also upgraded to the new seals, so I don't know how much that affected the feel, but the overall effect was drastic--I had been running everything wide open (@33psi), and now it felt like I needed to max out the rebound and HSC to get in the same ballpark. So I removed a very small amount of oil and replaced it with 7 wt (21.00 cst). It still felt underdamped so I did that a second time. Now it feels great, though I'm still sorting out the setup, and have been trying 40 psi. The downside, other than the hassle, is that I'll have to start over on the setup the next time I change the oil, since I now have a mystery custom viscosity.


So my recommendation is to always use the lightest oil you can reasonably obtain. Which is about 15 cSt at 40C.

Note that oils vary hugely from that 40C. The worst I've found gets 7x thicker from 40C to 0C. The best is under 3x thicker. Motorex 2.5wt is about 5x thicker.

It is better for the damper performance and maintenance to run thinner oil and more compression damping on the top dials. Running thicker oil and the top dials open creates negative pressures inside on fast hits which can suck in air and cause foaming.
Easy to fix that (oil change), but better to avoid.

Performance wise thicker oils create too much damping in the piston ports on faster compression which can make the fork harsher. Quadratic, double the shaft speed and get 4x the damping. That's never good.

I'd suggest you go for Maxima 3wt and dial in more LSC and HSC.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Why am I constantly ignored when asking for a proposal for an optimized compression stack? ;-)


Sorry, been busy. Also always testing different stuff so it gets complicated. Especially because recently this changed my tuning scheme completely!

My first Mattoc was this:
Piston	8x17.5x0.1	8x11x0.25 10x21x0.2

My second Mattoc was this:
Piston 10x21x0.2

My third is this:
Piston	8x17.5x0.1	8x11x0.25 10x21x0.2

Mrs Dougal is riding this:
Piston	8x17.5x0.1	8x15x0.1 10x20.5x0.15	10x12x0.2


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

Mudguard said:


> I'm not sure Öhlins have made a coil 650B fork yet? Well a proper one, not the 29/650B Fattie.


Theyre on the way, due Q2 this year apparently. UK price is pretty high but not a million miles away from the Ribbon.

If I can get the Mattoc's how I want them to feel, I'll save my money.


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

Vespasianus said:


> Nice looking bike. Recommend first getting the new seals, which may not be installed on your fork. Makes a huge difference in small bump compliance. IRT is fantastic and really can give you any ride you want.


Is there an easy way to check? There was a grey foam ring under the seals when I removed the lowers to change the travel. It was certainly very easy to get the lowers back on so hoping I might have the new seals.

The thing I hope the IRT will give me is an easy breakaway for small bump compliance without the fork wallowing too much on steeper sections or under breaking. For the money it does seem hard to beat the Mattoc but they just need to shake off the Manipoo tag especially here in the U.K. where they have a bad reputation.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mindmap3 said:


> Is there an easy way to check? There was a grey foam ring under the seals when I removed the lowers to change the travel. It was certainly very easy to get the lowers back on so hoping I might have the new seals.
> 
> The thing I hope the IRT will give me is an easy breakaway for small bump compliance without the fork wallowing too much on steeper sections or under breaking. For the money it does seem hard to beat the Mattoc but they just need to shake off the Manipoo tag especially here in the U.K. where they have a bad reputation.




__
http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/

But yes, foam rings mean the low friction seals. Old were four piece (seperate oil seals under) which sealed well but grabbed a lot in the cold.

IRT will do that. Great mid-stroke support. I run 40/60psi.


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

Dougal said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/
> 
> But yes, foam rings mean the low friction seals. Old were four piece (seperate oil seals under) which sealed well but grabbed a lot in the cold.
> ...


Brill thanks for that.

I'll let the forks break in and think about the IRT one I've ridden and fiddled with the stock set up (I'm running the air piston as large as possible).


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

mindmap3 said:


> I'm back on a Mattoc Pro and pleaeed so far.
> 
> I had a pair on my Ti Switchback but they looked a bit odd so I swapped to 350NCR's but I struggled with the set up (nice and plush but easy to bottom out or better bottom out resistance but not enough small bump compliance).


Interesting. I have the same forks and didn't have that issue with my 350 NCR, though I can see how it might happen since the 350 uses a fixed coil negative spring instead of an auto-adjusting air negative spring like most other forks. If you don't mind me asking, what was your air pressure and compression setup like on the 350NCR? I have mine at about 75psi and the compression damper 10 clicks out from fully closed, when setup this way it feels pretty close to my Mattoc Pro (mine has the IRT upgrade).


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

aerius said:


> Interesting. I have the same forks and didn't have that issue with my 350 NCR, though I can see how it might happen since the 350 uses a fixed coil negative spring instead of an auto-adjusting air negative spring like most other forks. If you don't mind me asking, what was your air pressure and compression setup like on the 350NCR? I have mine at about 75psi and the compression damper 10 clicks out from fully closed, when setup this way it feels pretty close to my Mattoc Pro (mine has the IRT upgrade).


Air pressure wasn't a million miles away from yours at maybe 85psi. I tried adding some oil to the air spring but couldn't get them how I want in terms of plushness, sensitivity and support. My 380 Ti's on my Demo are ace though.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm considering at Mattoc 27.5 at 160mm. Anyone have any feedback on how stiff these are compared to a Pike/Lyric/Ribbon/Fox36? 

Obviously i'm not expecting a 34mm chassis to be as stiff as those competitors, but I'm curious how close they are.


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

Porch said:


> I'm considering at Mattoc 27.5 at 160mm. Anyone have any feedback on how stiff these are compared to a Pike/Lyric/Ribbon/Fox36?
> 
> Obviously i'm not expecting a 34mm chassis to be as stiff as those competitors, but I'm curious how close they are.


I've just swapped a Yari (same chassis as a Lyrik) and I can't feel any difference in stiffness so far. I'm running mine at 150mm and they feel stiff enough to me.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Compared to my Pike it's close enough that the difference in flex between my various wheels is far more noticeable than anything else. If I do the hold the front wheel between my legs and turn the bars test my Pike feels a bit stiffer, but in real world use the difference isn't really noticeable unless I'm using my stiff DH wheels with big sticky tires. Even then the difference is small enough that I won't cry about it, and it's completely outweighed by the vastly superior performance of the Mattoc Pro.

I don't have enough ride time on Lyrics or Fox 36 to compare them, and haven't seen a Ribbon in my area yet.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Porch said:


> I'm considering at Mattoc 27.5 at 160mm. Anyone have any feedback on how stiff these are compared to a Pike/Lyric/Ribbon/Fox36?
> 
> Obviously i'm not expecting a 34mm chassis to be as stiff as those competitors, but I'm curious how close they are.


Not as stiff as a DVO Diamond. At 235 pounds, I noticed some flex with the Mattoc at 160mm. Nothing major, but more than my Diamond. For riders under 200 pounds, it is probably not noticeable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Porch said:


> I'm considering at Mattoc 27.5 at 160mm. Anyone have any feedback on how stiff these are compared to a Pike/Lyric/Ribbon/Fox36?
> 
> Obviously i'm not expecting a 34mm chassis to be as stiff as those competitors, but I'm curious how close they are.


Tube size doesn't influence stiffness much at all. It's about crown, brace and axle design.
10 years ago Manitou claimed their 32mm Nixon was as stiff as the then F36.

The first generation Mattocs are very good, the second generation (Mastodon and Mattoc Boost 160/170) are far stiffer again. Wider stance and new brace designs are big increases in torsional stiffness.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Good to know, thanks! I've got a Magnum and a Ribbon right now, unfortunately they are different wheel sizes and my 29er (Magnum) has much flexier wheels than my 27.5 (Ribbon), so it's hard to tell.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I've finally decided to dive into this fork. I had been running it stock: ~50psi, everything turned down except a couple clicks of LSC. No big gripes, but it's still completely factory, which means possible under/overfull fluids and that kinda lovely stuff. And now it's had a 'season' on it...no idea of hours; probably over 100.

So I went ahead and dropped the IRT in, switching to ~40psi in the main chamber and 75 in the secondary. Feels better. Maybe a tiny bit squishy. But I'm trying to acquire anything else I need for a refresh and upgrades before I bother tweaking on it.

I should be fine on tools. Got sockets, will grind an 8mm down if needed. Got a spare cassette tool in the mail to chop up.

Ordered Maxima 3wt for the shock....since all my adjustments are maxxed towards open, I figure lighter oil can't hurt. Will just use the big bottle of RS 0W40 I've got for bath oil. Have a bottle of 3M clear silicone grease that I generally use for air side parts.

And ordered a set of the fancy new 'low friction' seals.

My fork was bought in 2017, so I shouldn't need to update any other parts, correct? Anything I'm overlooking here to do a total overhaul? I assume air and damper o-rings should be good for another go round before I need to worry about replacing them.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Is slow rebound normal for a new fork? After a couole rides the rebound wide open is still too slow. It is a Mattoc Comp Boost.


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi guys i have some question. 
I bought a Mattoc pro 160 and also bought the IRP.
I wanted to know, the height of the oil must be 75mm or 77mm ( manitou guide says 75mm)? 
I've motul 2,5w factory line.
In lower leg 7cc or 15cc (160mm)
Where i can find new seal low friction? which are the best seal? I 've the Skf seal for Pike (someone used them?)
No oil in air chamber with IRP, right? Only grease
Slick honey it's ok or i can also use teflon red grease?
Thank you.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Doug said:


> Is slow rebound normal for a new fork? After a couole rides the rebound wide open is still too slow. It is a Mattoc Comp Boost.


how much air is in the fork?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

phuchmileif said:


> My fork was bought in 2017, so I shouldn't need to update any other parts, correct? Anything I'm overlooking here to do a total overhaul? I assume air and damper o-rings should be good for another go round before I need to worry about replacing them.


Post a pic of your air compression rod. We'll know if that's the original or revised. If it's original, Hayes/Manitou will send a replacement.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Porch said:


> I'm considering at Mattoc 27.5 at 160mm. Anyone have any feedback on how stiff these are compared to a Pike/Lyric/Ribbon/Fox36?
> 
> Obviously i'm not expecting a 34mm chassis to be as stiff as those competitors, but I'm curious how close they are.


If you choose the new mattoc 3 boost it will probably be stiffer than a pike and a bit less than Lyrik or so as they have a new crown and bridge design.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Slighty (a lot) OT: What are people using for seals on these and more urgently Dorados? I can order from Dougal but an alternative that I can get in Oz would be super.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

ColinL said:


> how much air is in the fork?


60-65psi, can't remember exactly how much.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

shmity said:


> Slighty (a lot) OT: What are people using for seals on these and more urgently Dorados? I can order from Dougal but an alternative that I can get in Oz would be super.


You can use the SKF seals on the Mattoc, but really need to use the factory seals for the Dorado.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Doug said:


> Is slow rebound normal for a new fork? After a couole rides the rebound wide open is still too slow. It is a Mattoc Comp Boost.


What makes you think it's too slow?

Manitou uses a non preloaded shim stack that actually flows oil, so the rebound feels slow in parking lot tests, but they feel good on trails because the rebound speed increases as you go deeper in the stroke.

If it feels slow on the trail, it is pretty easy to adjust the shim stack to speed it up. Just need to make it a little softer


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Cary said:


> You can use the SKF seals on the Mattoc, but really need to use the factory seals for the Dorado.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I figured as much. I'll open them up again and make sure there's enough slickoleum on the bushes. Last service was three rides ago and had new seals put in and they're very sticky.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cary said:


> You can use the SKF seals on the Mattoc, but really need to use the factory seals for the Dorado.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah I'm not aware of any alternative seal fitments for Dorado seals. Haven't looked though.

Mattoc crosses over to F34 seal sizing, but the new Mattoc seals are better than even SKF for friction and no issues with life yet (7 months and counting).


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> What makes you think it's too slow?
> 
> Manitou uses a non preloaded shim stack that actually flows oil, so the rebound feels slow in parking lot tests, but they feel good on trails because the rebound speed increases as you go deeper in the stroke.
> 
> If it feels slow on the trail, it is pretty easy to adjust the shim stack to speed it up. Just need to make it a little softer


That may be it. It's mosrly the parking lot tests comparing it to my DVO Diamond. Knowing that I'll have my wife (her fork) give me feedback when riding.

It could also be when I reduced travel i my not have put slickoleum on the seals. Can't remember if I did or if it came with enough to begin with.


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

can you give me the part number of new seals? where i can find it?


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Yeah I'm not aware of any alternative seal fitments for Dorado seals. Haven't looked though.
> 
> Mattoc crosses over to F34 seal sizing, but the new Mattoc seals are better than even SKF for friction and no issues with life yet (7 months and counting).


where i can find new seals? can you give me the part number? 
one more question, oil in chamber(mattoc pro 160) at 75mm or 77mm? 
thank you


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

ColinL said:


> Post a pic of your air compression rod. We'll know if that's the original or revised. If it's original, Hayes/Manitou will send a replacement.


my mattoc pro 2016 have original, what should i do to make it replace it


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cary said:


> You can use the SKF seals on the Mattoc, but really need to use the factory seals for the Dorado.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I used the SKF seals but while they feel great they tend to let a lot more dirt into the fork and a lot more bath oil escapes. I generally change my bath oil every 3 months and with the old system, I always still had bath oil in the fork and never saw much dirt. With the SKF seals, when I drop the lowers, my bath oil is almost all gone and there is some dirt - no a lot but there - below the seal on the foam ring.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

juster77 said:


> where i can find new seals? can you give me the part number?
> one more question, oil in chamber(mattoc pro 160) at 75mm or 77mm?
> thank you


I just ordered mine through my LBS. BTI stocks them, which means just about any bike shop in the country should be able to get them for you. I didn't ask the price but i bet it's about $30.

Here's the PN:
item # model description in stock?
AP-8547 Mattoc and Magnum (34mm) low friction dust seal kit YES

There is also a set on ebay if you search for "mattoc seals" and it specifies that it's the low-friction variety.

Edit: Just picked them up for $28 including tax and a 10% discount through my LBS.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Doug said:


> That may be it. It's mosrly the parking lot tests comparing it to my DVO Diamond. Knowing that I'll have my wife (her fork) give me feedback when riding.
> 
> It could also be when I reduced travel i my not have put slickoleum on the seals. Can't remember if I did or if it came with enough to begin with.


Have both forks. The Mattoc feels slow in the parking lot but is fine on the trail.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> I just ordered mine through my LBS. BTI stocks them, which means just about any bike shop in the country should be able to get them for you. I didn't ask the price but i bet it's about $30.
> 
> Here's the PN:
> item # model description in stock?
> ...


You can get them online here

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=4125

And here

https://www.bikeparts.com/categorie...nance-and-service-parts/?s=Manitou seals#pN=2


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> I used the SKF seals but while they feel great they tend to let a lot more dirt into the fork and a lot more bath oil escapes. I generally change my bath oil every 3 months and with the old system, I always still had bath oil in the fork and never saw much dirt. With the SKF seals, when I drop the lowers, my bath oil is almost all gone and there is some dirt - no a lot but there - below the seal on the foam ring.


On a dorado or on a mattoc? Im happy enough with the mattoc seals, but of the three different sets of dorado seals there has been design differences in all of them so im not sure where i stand on the set that just went in.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shmity said:


> On a dorado or on a mattoc? Im happy enough with the mattoc seals, but of the three different sets of dorado seals there has been design differences in all of them so im not sure where i stand on the set that just went in.


He is referencing mattoc seals. Not much you can do with dorado seals other than get the manitou version. They require a dedicated oil seal, so no other 36mm seal will work that I'm aware of.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

juster77 said:


> my mattoc pro 2016 have original, what should i do to make it replace it


https://www.manitoumtb.com/support/
"For a warranty inquiry within the US, please contact our techsupport line at (888-686-3472) or email us at [email protected] "


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

juster77 said:


> my mattoc pro 2016 have original, what should i do to make it replace it


You have the updated version. Only the the 2014 model came with the old version.

At this point, no one will be buying a new fork without the update. The update is now 3 years old, and all stock was updated before going out tp distributors starting late 2014. It's no longer worth wondering about.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

If anyone is on the fence about the toolkit...jesus, just buy it. I thought the cassette tool would be the hassle, but it's the ABSURD 8mm socket that's a PITA. The socket I decided to grind down is mostly air at this point.

Tip: if you don't have a lathe or some other easy means of milling it down, a 1/4" 8mm is generally just small enough to chuck into most drills, so you can just spin it against a coarse file. Still not fast, but it's a little safer than trying to hold it in a bench grinder or something.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

phuchmileif said:


> Tip: if you don't have a lathe or some other easy means of milling it down, a 1/4" 8mm is generally just small enough to chuck into most drills, so you can just spin it against a coarse file. Still not fast, but it's a little safer than trying to hold it in a bench grinder or something.


I ground down my 8mm socket on a bench grinder. It was actually really easy, I put the socket on an extension rod and from there it's a piece of cake to hold and turn it against the grinding wheel. Definitely a lot easier and safer than trying to hold it against the grinder with your bare hands or vice-grips.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> Tip: if you don't have a lathe or some other easy means of milling it down, a 1/4" 8mm is generally just small enough to chuck into most drills, so you can just spin it against a coarse file. Still not fast, but it's a little safer than trying to hold it in a bench grinder or something.


I put an 8mm socket in my drill (1/2" chuck) and with in hand held it and had it turning at low speed. Other hand used a dremel with the basic grinding drum. Worked like a charm. Evenly ground it down and goes pretty quick.

I've heard several say the split cassette tool in the kit can compress and slip. A new park FR 5.2 is deep enough to fit over the shaft.

That leaves the 24mm socket. A standard 24mm could work but I have the $55 Park flat sockets and that has all you need for most forks.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I'd still probably be a little leery of the socket flying off at high speed. 

I can also report that the Park FR5.2 works brilliantly. Air valve fits right through it like it was made to do this job. Honestly not even sure why the slotted piece of **** exists (...okay, maybe don't buy the toolkit).

Now, though, a question:

Why would I want to put the lower legs back on to assemble the damper? I see no purpose to this. Manitou manual says install lower casting, then fill damper, then cycle damper, then final assembly.

Aside from the PITA of having to cycle the damper against spring pressure (their method), it's also difficult to get the extension rod of the empty damper to meet up to the threads at the bottom of the fork. So, instead of fighting to get it installed, and fighting to bleed it...why not just get the damper sealed up before putting the casting back on?


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

*delete*

delete


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

ColinL said:


> https://www.manitoumtb.com/support/
> "For a warranty inquiry within the US, please contact our techsupport line at (888-686-3472) or email us at [email protected] "





mullen119 said:


> You have the updated version. Only the the 2014 model came with the old version.
> 
> At this point, no one will be buying a new fork without the update. The update is now 3 years old, and all stock was updated before going out tp distributors starting late 2014. It's no longer worth wondering about.


I disassembled the piston and I still have the old. I think my fork was part of old inventories, not updated. I contacted an assistance center here in Italy and they make me a free upgrade


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## juster77 (Jan 7, 2018)

*ok*



Porch said:


> I just ordered mine through my LBS. BTI stocks them, which means just about any bike shop in the country should be able to get them for you. I didn't ask the price but i bet it's about $30.
> 
> Here's the PN:
> item # model description in stock?
> ...


Thanks i'bought the Racingbros Lycan seals


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I finally found some time again to work on the forks. I tried to pull out the compression assembly on my wifes Mattoc to redo the shimstack. To my surprise only the top half and a blue shaft came out, bottom part stayed in. See image.



Probably both sides separated because I didn't torque it correctly the first time I messed around with the shimstack. I can put the blue shaft in but it feels like I can't torque it up as it feels like the bottom side is turning along. I'm afraid I have to open up the thing completely again to push it out from the bottom (or to be to able reach some sort of bottom nut to keep it from turning).

Any suggestions?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> I finally found some time again to work on the forks. I tried to pull out the compression assembly on my wifes Mattoc to redo the shimstack. To my surprise only the top half and a blue shaft came out, bottom part stayed in. See image.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not good. I would try to get the threads to engage with the top cap as much as possible and try to pull it out. If that doesn't work, you will have to do like you said and pull the fork apart and push it from the bottom


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks, sigh...


Any pointers on the require torque on the compression assembly to prevent the same thing from happening next time? I think I torqued it 3-5Nm the last time.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

CS645 said:


> Thanks, sigh...
> 
> Any pointers on the require torque on the compression assembly to prevent the same thing from happening next time? I think I torqued it 3-5Nm the last time.


A little loctite 243 to keep it from unscrewing will do wonders. Many fork manufactures call for it when reassembling the dampers.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Cary said:


> A little loctite 243 to keep it from unscrewing will do wonders. Many fork manufactures call for it when reassembling the dampers.


Ok thanks.

BTW, using a flute cleaning tool where you can wrap the lint free rag around is a susperior tool in my view to the mechanical grabber from the Manitou video. It's stiff and because you can easily wrap it there is no risk of scrating the inside of the stanchions.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u...b-Flute-b-font-font-b-Cleaning-b-font.jpg&f=1


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

What's the goal with shim stack tweaks? I messed around with it when I was trying to make a Pike RC not suck (...didn't work), but given the functionality of the Mattoc with it's three legit damper adjustments (and IRT), what is anyone looking to gain by modding the shim stack?

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't- I'm just legit saying that I don't know, and I'm wondering if it's something that would be worth getting into. I'm pretty hardcore into tweaking my stuff, but I've gradually learned to try to leave things alone if I'm not sure what I'm trying to accomplish, lol.

I'm always down for an improvement. The big thing for me was just getting the adjusters to feel usable...between the new oil/dust seals and a switch to Maxima 3wt, I think I'm really in the butter zone now.

At ~185lbs (84kg), I was running about 50psi, with the rebound and HSC all the way open. It was a fairly smooth ride, but still seemed like it could be better on small bump, and I felt like the fork wasn't doing as much as it could when I really got into some faster downhill chunk.

Dropped in IRT and switched to about 40/75psi. Already felt a little smoother, even though the weather was cold, which has always stiffened this fork substantially. Small bump a tiny bit better and I was now using all the travel.

Have yet to go for a real ride after the new seals and oil change, but initial impressions are that my damping with rebound and HSC a couple clicks in is similar to what it used to be wide open. Fork feels overall more responsive, though stiction was never really an issue before (stock seals were probably as good as the Pike with SKF seals, which were way better than stock RS seals).

I still can't figure out what the hell to do with the LSC knob, though. I never can decide where I want it...almost have to use it like a climb/descend switch (i.e. go all the way CW or CCW) to really feel a difference, and it's still a bit 'meh'...fork is still a bit soft for climbing (a tradeoff I gladly accept for comfort) yet I feel like going full-soft on descent sacrifices control. (edit to clarify: full LSC doesn't do much and zero LSC is too wallowy, so I generally just run it in the middle and try not to overthink it)


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

phuchmileif said:


> I still can't figure out what the hell to do with the LSC knob, though. I never can decide where I want it...almost have to use it like a climb/descend switch (i.e. go all the way CW or CCW) to really feel a difference, and it's still a bit 'meh'...fork is still a bit soft for climbing (a tradeoff I gladly accept for comfort) yet I feel like going full-soft on descent sacrifices control. (edit to clarify: full LSC doesn't do much and zero LSC is too wallowy, so I generally just run it in the middle and try not to overthink it)


Vorsprung Suspension's tech videos might have an answer for you.

Episode 5 explains how low & high speed compression adjustments work and how they interact with each other.





Episode 6 expands on those concepts and goes into how they affect ride characteristics. It also explains setup procedures and what shim stack tunes are for.





I'd recommend watching the entire video series, Steve does a really good job of explaining how suspension works and once you digest all the info you'll be better at making your suspension work the way you want it to.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> What's the goal with shim stack tweaks? I messed around with it when I was trying to make a Pike RC not suck (...didn't work), but given the functionality of the Mattoc with it's three legit damper adjustments (and IRT), what is anyone looking to gain by modding the shim stack?
> 
> I'm not saying anyone shouldn't- I'm just legit saying that I don't know, and I'm wondering if it's something that would be worth getting into. I'm pretty hardcore into tweaking my stuff, but I've gradually learned to try to leave things alone if I'm not sure what I'm trying to accomplish, lol.
> 
> ...


The right shim stack will let you run with the LSC closed. Then you can use the HSC to move the whole damping curve upwards on demand.

The compression stack is a fairly complicated one to tune as you have two layers of shims. The lower stack that is always active and the upper stack which can be preloaded by the HSC dials.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

phuchmileif said:


> What's the goal with shim stack tweaks? I messed around with it when I was trying to make a Pike RC not suck (...didn't work), but given the functionality of the Mattoc with it's three legit damper adjustments (and IRT), what is anyone looking to gain by modding the shim stack?
> 
> I'm not saying anyone shouldn't- I'm just legit saying that I don't know, and I'm wondering if it's something that would be worth getting into. I'm pretty hardcore into tweaking my stuff, but I've gradually learned to try to leave things alone if I'm not sure what I'm trying to accomplish, lol.
> 
> ...


Manitou does their recommended setup a bit different then most. They suggest setting high speed to control max platform with the low speed.

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/46-31067_Mattoc_Set-up_Guide.pdf

You really can't compare the reshimming of the Pike to a Mattoc. Most of the issues with the Pike are related to its stock piston and air spring, which no amount of reshimming alone will fix.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hmm, ok. So pushed the bottom part of the compression assembly out from below. Changed the shimstack, put the assembly back together (which went rather difficult since the top cap was quite unwilling to thread in the bottom part). It seemed the balls didn't want to align properly or something. Now the LSC turns counter clock wise perfectly (and will keeping turning CC without an end stop) but clockwise it will only go one click and then it jams.

So seems there is something going wrong in the assembly of the compression damper, but I have a hard time figuring out what. I did notice that wear was starting to show on the blue shaft where it intersect with the two balls at the red end of the LSC dial at bottom of the top cap.

EDIT: Ok problem solved, the top cap didn't thread on far enough because the threads were damaged. Problem was that because the top cap separated the two balls were messing up the thread that secures the top cap to the rest of the assembly. I (well actually my wife, she's kinda cool like that) removed the inner red workings of LSC dial inside the top cap (see photo) so we could force the treads straight again without the internals interfering. Then reinstalled the red part into the bottom part together with the blue shaft with the balls in the right position and then you can thread on the top cap again.

So my advice to anyone who has the top cap loosen unwantedly is to remove the red inner workings from the top cap first, together with the blue shaft reinstall that red inner workings first into bottom section of the comp. damper and then thread the top cap back on. Don't just go screwing the top cap back on or you'll risk messing up your thread (unless Dougal or Mullen suggest otherwise).

So just managed to save the compression assembly but was a close call.



PS. I changed the shims to this:

10x12x0,2
10x21x0,15
8x11x0,25
8x17,5x0,1
-------------- piston
10x25x0,15

Compared to the original the 21mm shim changed from 0.2 to 0.15. So this shim is only 42% stiff as the original. I suspect this stack is still too stiff for her 66kg ride weight. If that's the case I'll probably try the following stack:

10x12x0,2
10x21x0,15
8x12x0,1
8x12x0,1
8x17,5x0,1
8x14x0,1
-------------- piston
10x25x0,15

So basically a slight 0.1mm space under the 17,5mm shim to let it bleed a bit. Not sure if that will turn out correct, but we'll see.

Also two 8x12x0,1 above the 17,5mm shim to give it some space towards the 21mm shims. Not sure if that's necessary.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm having some issues with my Mattoc.
On short rides it works pretty well.
But on longer rides it starts to make a sound and start to get a lot of friction.
The fork still works but feels harsher.
Then the next morning when I pull the bike out of the garage its feeling pretty good again.

I've serviced it recently including replacing damper oil and haven't been able to solve this.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Dougal said:


> So my recommendation is to always use the lightest oil you can reasonably obtain. Which is about 15 cSt at 40C.
> 
> Note that oils vary hugely from that 40C. The worst I've found gets 7x thicker from 40C to 0C. The best is under 3x thicker. Motorex 2.5wt is about 5x thicker.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, Dougal! Really appreciate all your expertise and patience, on this thread and elsewhere. Question: when I first put the fork back together (Maxima 3wt), I had a new top-out clunk when the tire left the ground (and generally undamped feel). This went away after replacing a little 3wt with 7wt. Did it likely go away because of the added viscosity, or was it something else? (Maybe I didn't adequately bleed it, for example.)


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

ac1000 said:


> I'm having some issues with my Mattoc.
> On short rides it works pretty well.
> But on longer rides it starts to make a sound and start to get a lot of friction.
> The fork still works but feels harsher.
> ...


For what it's worth, friends and I have experienced this loss of performance with all forks we have owned--in our experience, it is rider fatigue.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> Thanks a lot, Dougal! Really appreciate all your expertise and patience, on this thread and elsewhere. Question: when I first put the fork back together (Maxima 3wt), I had a new top-out clunk when the tire left the ground (and generally undamped feel). This went away after replacing a little 3wt with 7wt. Did it likely go away because of the added viscosity, or was it something else? (Maybe I didn't adequately bleed it, for example.)


Possibly a displaced shim.

Mrs Dougal is now running an oil so thin it's silly (7cSt at 40C). Rebound is still working properly.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Hmm, ok. So pushed the bottom part of the compression assembly out from below. Changed the shimstack, put the assembly back together (which went rather difficult since the top cap was quite unwilling to thread in the bottom part). It seemed the balls didn't want to align properly or something. Now the LSC turns counter clock wise perfectly (and will keeping turning CC without an end stop) but clockwise it will only go one click and then it jams.
> 
> So seems there is something going wrong in the assembly of the compression damper, but I have a hard time figuring out what. I did notice that wear was starting to show on the blue shaft where it intersect with the two balls at the red end of the LSC dial at bottom of the top cap.
> 
> ...


I've had one come apart before and the easiest way to reassemble it was to take it completely apart and reassemble it from the top-cap down. Here's a pic showing some of it apart:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BHlBU0Mj2GC/


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## knurra (Jan 15, 2018)

I just bought a Mattoc, and it looks great. However, upon closer inspection the airvalve seems to be partly stripped, or should it be like this?









Another question, how do I know I have the latest seals?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

knurra said:


> Another question, how do I know I have the latest seals?


The latest seals will say "RXWT000255" on them


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Possibly a displaced shim.
> 
> Mrs Dougal is now running an oil so thin it's silly (7cSt at 40C). Rebound is still working properly.


Oh, interesting. Good to know that it still behaves with oil that thin. Whatever it was, it went away, oddly.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

EDIT: nevermind, in this case, it turned out to be a loose hexlock QR lever, which I changed over to from the hexlock SL recently! I'll leave my stupidity below in case it helps anyone else down the road. 

--------------

Hey, has anyone experienced a "knocking" sensation in their mattoc? I have a mattoc 2 pro, and if I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth, while holding onto one or the other lower leg, I can feel what feels like the stanchions knocking back and forth inside the lowers.

My mattoc had this from day one, manitou told me it was bushing slop, so I sent it in for replacement bushings under warranty. It came back unchanged, so I sent it back again and they replaced the lowers the second time. Problem was finally gone, but after about 6 months and maybe 20 rides (I split time between 2 different bikes), it's knocking pretty bad again.

I can't find anyone else complaining about the same problem so I'm wondering if it's something else. Anyone have any ideas? If it's something I can fix myself, i'd much prefer that over not having the fork for another 2 weeks!


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## knurra (Jan 15, 2018)

xeren said:


> The latest seals will say "RXWT000255" on them


Ok, thanks!


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

New review:

https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I've had one come apart before and the easiest way to reassemble it was to take it completely apart and reassemble it from the top-cap down. Here's a pic showing some of it apart:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BHlBU0Mj2GC/


I wonder if Manitou considered making the compression assembly mount reverse thread. Might prevent this from happening. Now the top cap threads the same direction into the fork as well as into the rest of the compression assembly, making it more likely to unthread inside.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> I wonder if Manitou considered making the compression assembly mount reverse thread. Might prevent this from happening. Now the top cap threads the same direction into the fork as well as into the rest of the compression assembly, making it more likely to unthread inside.


Reverse thread is a great way to end up with a lot of broken parts. Everyone expects them to unscrew the usual way!

A little more torque stops them unscrewing. Loctite is optional.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Great to see pictures of disassembled compression damper. Thanks to that I found that I reversed order of spring and ball to regulate HBO. I asked manitou support in Germany if its the right way and they agreed. It was wrong.
This all happened because my damper unscrewed during removal, just like what happened to CS645

Another thing is, my mattoc was getting harsher and harsher over time. I replaced oil, lubed air pistons, installed skf seals, but I was unable to make it plush again. Today I took damper out to reverse the spring and ball (as mentioned above) I spotted that the foam sleeve slipped down and is pushing quite hard to that silver HSC thing. So my platform shims were fully preloaded. Is there any way to avoid this?
As you can see in the picture, there is a gap between adjustment rod and the silver sleeve.


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## gavstupple (Jan 18, 2018)

just bought some mattock pro2 (IVA) for my spitfire, anyone got any tuning tips, currently have everything in the middle, weigh around 110kg's loaded so thinking 75psi, coming from x-fusion sweeps (I like to be different) I'd say aggressive riding style from lack of skill / fitness though!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Cary said:


> New review:
> 
> https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Somebody needs to show that guy how to route his brake cable


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

gavstupple said:


> just bought some mattock pro2 (IVA) for my spitfire, anyone got any tuning tips, currently have everything in the middle, weigh around 110kg's loaded so thinking 75psi, coming from x-fusion sweeps (I like to be different) I'd say aggressive riding style from lack of skill / fitness though!


Start with what this guy did. And order the IRT.
https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/
https://nsmb.com/articles/coil-forks-vs-manitou-irt-air/


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> Somebody needs to show that guy how to route his brake cable


That's actually how manitou wants you to route it


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

ac1000 said:


> I'm having some issues with my Mattoc.
> On short rides it works pretty well.
> But on longer rides it starts to make a sound and start to get a lot of friction.
> The fork still works but feels harsher.
> ...


I opened up the damper after riding and the oil level was high.
I compressed the fork several times and released a lot of air trapped under the rebound piston and the oil level returned to normal.
After reassembly a quick ride around showed a fork working ok again.
I'm assuming this is my problem, that air is getting trapped in the bottom of the damper while riding.

Do my assumptions make sense?
Is there a fix or something to check out?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ac1000 said:


> I opened up the damper after riding and the oil level was high.
> I compressed the fork several times and released a lot of air trapped under the rebound piston and the oil level returned to normal.
> After reassembly a quick ride around showed a fork working ok again.
> I'm assuming this is my problem, that air is getting trapped in the bottom of the damper while riding.
> ...


Air should not make it's way under the rebound damper from riding. Can't say I have ever came across that before in any form. The oil level is supposed to be well above the ports the compression damper to make sure it doesn't happen.

The only thing I can think of would be if the rebound damper seal head is allowing it to suck in air. It's the only logical reason this could happen, and the fix would be a new oring. That said, any air that would get sucked in should very quickly make it's way to the top of the damper during riding conditions since any air will rise, so it still doesn't make sense that air would be trapped down low.

Very odd problem


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> That's actually how manitou wants you to route it


Well crap. Mine sure seemed to want to go straight up the leg to the lever and I've seen other users do that too, but I do get some light rubbing under full compression.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> Well crap. Mine sure seemed to want to go straight up the leg to the lever and I've seen other users do that too, but I do get some light rubbing under full compression.


I have seen a ton a different methods that work, but the routing shown is the way manitou wants it done. Any route that doesn't hit the tire on compression or rub the crown is fine though. Unlike a front facing arch, there is no clear routing.


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## gavstupple (Jan 18, 2018)

OK, I've read through this and think i'm going to start with +2 on rebound, compression and bottom out as he did but hoping to stick with the IVA, i take it the socket on the top for the iva is what people have troubel with?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

This came out a while ago, but it seems like a good time to post it. I haven't been able to be on here as much recently, so it may have been posted and I missed it.

https://wwwmanitoumtbcom-ct78ltl6iy...uploads/2017/09/Manitou_Reverse-Arch_revC.pdf


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> This came out a while ago, but it seems like a good time to post it. I haven't been able to be on here as much recently, so it may have been posted and I missed it.
> 
> https://wwwmanitoumtbcom-ct78ltl6iy...uploads/2017/09/Manitou_Reverse-Arch_revC.pdf


So, best hose routing for front brakes on right hand side?


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## riiz (Jul 8, 2010)

Boom King said:


> So, best hose routing for front brakes on right hand side?


Nope, works really well the normal Left-hand braking. The manitou way of routing actually prevents cable rub really well and is easier than trying to imitate front-arch routing.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

riiz said:


> Nope, works really well the normal Left-hand braking. The manitou way of routing actually prevents cable rub really well and is easier than trying to imitate front-arch routing.


I'm Australian so our normal is different to yours. Front lever on RHS.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Boom King said:


> I'm Australian so our normal is different to yours. Front lever on RHS.


That's how I run mine. And both hoses have been shortened since then too!


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

My brake routing kinda sucks. It's right-front, however the hose had already been set to the right length for the previous fork so at rest the brake hose rests on the top of the arch. It's not a big deal - I've put some tape on it to prevent it rubbing paint off - however as much as I love the Mattoc I'd prefer the brake routing of Rockshox/Fox any day.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> I'm Australian so our normal is different to yours. Front lever on RHS.


I took some photos of how I do it. NZ, like Australia and the UK, run Moto-style.

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/manitou-cable-routing


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I took some photos of how I do it. NZ, like Australia and the UK, run Moto-style.
> 
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/manitou-cable-routing


I run it like this on my left hand brake as I didn't have a long enough brake hose to try it the other way.

I also put this on the fork leg instead of a plain zip tie:
https://www.bikeparts.com/BPC167658/cobra-flexroute-universal-cable-guide-black-4-bag


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

In case anyone needs to see another option...I route my brake hose on the inside of the leg, like in Dougal's pic. But I secure it at the back since I'm running to the left side. It might look a little weird but IMO it lays really nice.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> In case anyone needs to see another option...I route my brake hose on the inside of the leg, like in Dougal's pic. But I secure it at the back since I'm running to the left side. It might look a little weird but IMO it lays really nice.


That looks pretty good!


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

ac1000 said:


> I run it like this on my left hand brake as I didn't have a long enough brake hose to try it the other way.
> 
> I also put this on the fork leg instead of a plain zip tie:
> https://www.bikeparts.com/BPC167658/cobra-flexroute-universal-cable-guide-black-4-bag


I ran across your site when I first installed my fork and it was the reason I didn't run the cable the way they did in that review. It works well the way you posted.

Funny story but it turns out i'm going to get to re-do my front brake cable (kinked my cable while replacing my stem the other day). Maybe I'll try the Manitou way this time.


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## Kartwheel68 (Jun 14, 2015)

phuchmileif said:


> In case anyone needs to see another option...I route my brake hose on the inside of the leg, like in Dougal's pic. But I secure it at the back since I'm running to the left side. It might look a little weird but IMO it lays really nice.


Dirt bikes run the front brake line like this, they continue up in front of the fork, but the lower routing is exactly like this. For a while Honda actually had a patent on this routing and everyone else had to route differently, with the hose leaving the caliper pointed down, looping under and around in front of the caliper, then going up the fork.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

I just had a thought - can I run my IVA with the spacers entirely removed, instead of just on the lower side of the seal? 

They still take up *some* space in the air chamber, so I'm wondering if it's safe to take them out to get even a little bit more linearity out of the spring?


Also, does anyone find the recommended PSI charts for the IVA to be too stiff? The recommendation I get for my weight and travel is 72psi, but even 60psi is WAY too stiff - i only use about 2/3rds of my travel. I'm currently at 55psi and might even go lower.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> I just had a thought - can I run my IVA with the spacers entirely removed, instead of just on the lower side of the seal?
> 
> They still take up *some* space in the air chamber, so I'm wondering if it's safe to take them out to get even a little bit more linearity out of the spring?
> 
> Also, does anyone find the recommended PSI charts for the IVA to be too stiff? The recommendation I get for my weight and travel is 72psi, but even 60psi is WAY too stiff - i only use about 2/3rds of my travel. I'm currently at 55psi and might even go lower.


You can absolutely remove the piston and spacers completely to gain more volume. Do so as needed. Manitou also makes a blank top cap if needed.

I have yet to find a suspension manufacture with recommendations that are close. I don't even look at the charts anymore as they are pointless.

If you have a spacific spring curve and like to mess with your suspension, but the IRT upgrade. It's worth it.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> You can absolutely remove the piston and spacers completely to gain more volume. Do so as needed. Manitou also makes a blank top cap if needed.
> 
> I have yet to find a suspension manufacture with recommendations that are close. I don't even look at the charts anymore as they are pointless.
> 
> If you have a spacific spring curve and like to mess with your suspension, but the IRT upgrade. It's worth it.


Thanks mullen119. I didn't know I could remove the piston as well. does it come off the bottom of the rod after the thing at the bottom of the rod is unscrewed?

I actually have the IRT upgrade, but I can't seem to dial it in properly, so I decided to go back to the IVA that came with the fork. The thing is, I LOVE tinkering with my suspension. I changed the shims on my Manitou Minute, I do all my own services, etc. But I just couldn't find a set of air pressures that felt better with the IRT than with the single chamber spring.

I'm 175lbs, and pretty solidly intermediate, running the fork at 150mm, but with the IRT, whenever I would try pressures in the chambers that were far enough apart to actually make a difference in the spring curve, the fork would either be way too stiff, or way too wallowy.

for example, 45psi was the lowest I could seem to go in the main chamber while still having good support, but putting like 75psi in the IRT meant I couldn't use full travel, even with HBO and HSC damping at minimum. and on the other side, if I wanted to get full travel, the main spring had to be too low, and the fork would dive. i know the purpose of the IRT is to get a more linear spring rate, but it seemed to be doing the opposite for me.

so yeah, i'm going back to basics for now. I'm going to find a good spring rate and good damping settings that I like and can stick with, and then maybe go back to the IRT. If you have any tips, though, i'm all ears (eyes?)!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> I just had a thought - can I run my IVA with the spacers entirely removed, instead of just on the lower side of the seal?
> 
> They still take up *some* space in the air chamber, so I'm wondering if it's safe to take them out to get even a little bit more linearity out of the spring?
> 
> Also, does anyone find the recommended PSI charts for the IVA to be too stiff? The recommendation I get for my weight and travel is 72psi, but even 60psi is WAY too stiff - i only use about 2/3rds of my travel. I'm currently at 55psi and might even go lower.


Take the oring off the IVA piston and you'll gain most of the volume without having to remove anything bigger.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Take the oring off the IVA piston and you'll gain most of the volume without having to remove anything bigger.


thanks, i might try this too if removing the piston looks like it could damage anything


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

I'm 185lbs and I found that the lowest I could go with the IVA cap was about 50psi. A little soft for slow, technical maneuvering, but felt fine at speed. Still didn't use all the travel.

I swapped in the IRT and went to 40/75 and it's literally better in every way. Similar overall feel, but gentler off the top (so better small bump) and somehow, it's still using more travel.

What pressure are you using with the IVA, xeren? I could see someone not feeling a difference, but can't imagine IRT actually feeling worse. Did you set the pressures in the correct order? Sure that the IRT piston was moving freely?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

phuchmileif said:


> I'm 185lbs and I found that the lowest I could go with the IVA cap was about 50psi. A little soft for slow, technical maneuvering, but felt fine at speed. Still didn't use all the travel.
> 
> I swapped in the IRT and went to 40/75 and it's literally better in every way. Similar overall feel, but gentler off the top (so better small bump) and somehow, it's still using more travel.
> 
> What pressure are you using with the IVA, xeren? I could see someone not feeling a difference, but can't imagine IRT actually feeling worse. Did you set the pressures in the correct order? Sure that the IRT piston was moving freely?


i just swapped back to the IVA, so i'm still dialing in the pressure. 60 psi was way too high- bad small bump compliance and didn't come close to using all the travel. i have it set to 55psi but haven't ridden on it yet. i have a feeling i will end up at 50psi when all is said and done - i think that's what i was running originally, before installing the IRT a while back.

yep, set the IRT pressure first, then the main spring. i guess it's not that it felt worse, it's just that the pressures that felt right, (while avoiding diving at one extreme, or not using even close to all the travel at the other extreme) all ended up with very close main spring and IRT spring pressures, like 50 and 60psi, for example, and at that point, the IRT isnt really doing much in the way of adjusting the spring curve, given how quickly in the travel the 50psi of the main spring gets up to the same pressure as the IRT spring and starts moving it. IIRC, manitou says to keep the pressures at least 10 or 15psi apart, probably for this exact reason

as a side note, the recommended pressures that manitou gives for the IRT are even more insane than the IVA recommended pressures. for my weight, they recommend 72psi & 112psi. when set at those pressures, the fork feels like it's locked out. i thought something had broken inside my fork at that point, before trying much lower pressures


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> as a side note, the recommended pressures that manitou gives for the IRT are even more insane than the IVA recommended pressures. for my weight, they recommend 72psi & 112psi. when set at those pressures, the fork feels like it's locked out. i thought something had broken inside my fork at that point, before trying much lower pressures


It took me a long time to find a good base setting for the IRT.

So I tell people now. Take your main pressure, use 10psi less in the lower chamber, 10psi more in the top and then tune from there.

I went from 50psi single to 40/60psi and I'm happy as a pig in s**t.
Mrs Dougal is down to 25/40psi.

1.5x lower pressure in the top also seems to be a good guideline. The 2x recommendation requires a very hard hitting rider. Great for racing but will beat the crap out of you in less aggressive riding.

As bikes get slacker and longer there is less weight on the fork.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> As bikes get slacker and longer there is less weight on the fork.


That's true, I hadn't really thought about that

alright, i'm going to try to dial in the IVA with everything removed to make it as linear as possible (or maybe get an old school top cap (for posterity, it appears to be part # 141-30996-K006), and if i'm not completely in love with the spring curve, i'll give the IRT a shot again with your suggestions. Thanks again for the helpful info!

i think I've said it before, but I really wish Manitou had a Mattoc coil spring kit in the works, or a MARS kit. I would buy that in a second.

My Minute fork with the MARS coil/air spring combo is the best fork I've ever ridden. I know you give up travel adjustability, but the small bump compliance with the right spring in the MARS is so, so good, and it stays nice and high in its travel, even with the trail shim stack in the damper.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

xeren said:


> as a side note, the recommended pressures that manitou gives for the IRT are even more insane than the IVA recommended pressures. for my weight, they recommend 72psi & 112psi. when set at those pressures, the fork feels like it's locked out. i thought something had broken inside my fork at that point, before trying much lower pressures


I think Manitou just has seriously aggressive test riders working for them. With most other forks my air pressure ends up around 25-30% higher than the manufacturer recommendations, but with Manitou I ended up right on the mark. I started with a stiffer setup but eventually ended up at 52psi in the main and 100psi in the IRT, right where Manitou said it should be. Surprised the heck out of me.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

*ShockWiz Issues*



scar4me said:


> I'd expect so.
> But wouldn't want to say for sure if there were any wall thickness differences in the uppers.
> 
> I'm sure it was dougal that mentioned you could make the mattoc dual air ages ago. The shockwiz would work as long as the chambers were separate when the valve was attached.


Looks like you can't get a IVA assembly with an air valve any more.
The IVA that manitou sell for the mattocs now doesn't include an air valve.

Would a Magnum Air Cap enable Mattocs I or II to work with a shockwiz? Has anyone tried this, does it fit?

I ideally want some way of varying the internal volume with an air valve in the top cap so I can alter the volume and use a shockwiz.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> Looks like you can't get a IVA assembly with an air valve any more.
> The IVA that manitou sell for the mattocs now doesn't include an air valve.
> 
> Would a Magnum Air Cap enable Mattocs I or II to work with a shockwiz? Has anyone tried this, does it fit?
> ...


The IVA never came with an air-valve. Yes a Magnum cap will let you run a shockwiz. If you like playing around.

You'd need to create a custom IVA valved cap to do what you want. But I'm not seeing the point really.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

aerius said:


> I think Manitou just has seriously aggressive test riders working for them. With most other forks my air pressure ends up around 25-30% higher than the manufacturer recommendations, but with Manitou I ended up right on the mark. I started with a stiffer setup but eventually ended up at 52psi in the main and 100psi in the IRT, right where Manitou said it should be. Surprised the heck out of me.


Echoing this experience, I ended up exactly with what Manitou recommended on main spring and some 5psi higher IRT. And still get full travel with two clicks out from full hbo.

That is to say that the air spring pressures are pretty spot on for some of us.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## knurra (Jan 15, 2018)

I'm about to install the IRT, coming straight from coil I think I'm used to a bit steeper spring rate. 
On the damper side I'm using zero rebound damping now, what recommendations did you have for lower weight oil? I think I recall something about "Pike" oil being ok?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

knurra said:


> I'm about to install the IRT, coming straight from coil I think I'm used to a bit steeper spring rate.
> On the damper side I'm using zero rebound damping now, what recommendations did you have for lower weight oil? I think I recall something about "Pike" oil being ok?


A coil is perfectly linear and an air spring progressive (you could theoretically make an air spring that doesn't ramp up as fast as a coil, but it would require a far larger air chamber than is available within a fork.

If you want to run a lighter oil, try Redline 2.5 weight. Before doing that, make sure everything is working correctly. Generally people don't need to play with lighter oils unless they are under 130 pounds or so. Are your seals lubed?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

knurra said:


> I'm about to install the IRT, coming straight from coil I think I'm used to a bit steeper spring rate.
> On the damper side I'm using zero rebound damping now, what recommendations did you have for lower weight oil? I think I recall something about "Pike" oil being ok?


Which seals have you got? The new low-friction seals are worth about 3 clicks of rebound.

I used to run wide open rebound. With the new seals I'm 3 clicks in.

Yes Pike oil is okay. It's similar viscosity at 40C but a bit thinner at 20C.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

An interesting pic for you guys. This is after last nights riding, my bike is on the viewers left with Minion DHF 2.6 in it. Bike on the right (Scott) has Minion DHF 2.8 in it.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Be_cG0tlUZh/

The forks are the Mattoc Pro Boost 27". Mine set at 170mm. The 2.8 DHF is just within the diameter allowed by Manitou for this fork. Slightly over the officially allowed width.

Stance and tyre clearance in these Mattoc Pro Boost is seriously impressive. 170mm travel with big rubber is very nice too.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> An interesting pic for you guys. This is after last nights riding, my bike is on the viewers left with Minion DHF 2.6 in it. Bike on the right (Scott) has Minion DHF 2.8 in it.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Nice!... So really it looks like you could do the 27.5 Pro Boost and be able to fit a standard 2.5" 29er tire in there with pretty ample clearance. Only reason I state that is because the one thing that has turned me off to the 27.5+/29 version is that it only has 140mm of travel, I currently run 150mm on my bike and next bike will be at least that. Whenever that happens.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Nice!... So really it looks like you could do the 27.5 Pro Boost and be able to fit a standard 2.5" 29er tire in there with pretty ample clearance. Only reason I state that is because the one thing that has turned me off to the 27.5+/29 version is that it only has 140mm of travel, I currently run 150mm on my bike and next bike will be at least that. Whenever that happens.


Just to be clear, those are two different forks. In the photo above are the Mattoc Pro Boost 27-160. The ones with the bolt-on mudguard. Which you can take out a spacer to get 170mm. Brace design is the giveaway but it's not obvious in that photo.

The Mattoc Pro 29" is the one you're referring to which is 140mm. The same guy who owns the black Mattoc Pro Boost 27 also owns a Magnum Pro 29" which he runs with a 29x2.5 or 2.6 (can't recall). I stretched that fork out to 150mm for him.

It's all safe and working perfectly. But it's a modification by me, not a factory fork.


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## knurra (Jan 15, 2018)

Cary said:


> A coil is perfectly linear and an air spring progressive (you could theoretically make an air spring that doesn't ramp up as fast as a coil, but it would require a far larger air chamber than is available within a fork.
> 
> If you want to run a lighter oil, try Redline 2.5 weight. Before doing that, make sure everything is working correctly. Generally people don't need to play with lighter oils unless they are under 130 pounds or so. Are your seals lubed?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I'm about 130 pounds, so fairly lightweight. I'm using the fork straight from "shop", I can sense some stiction after riding on flat terrain. I think I will have proper service done and change to lightweight oil, it feels better do be "in" the range, rather than on one extreme end. The new seals were already installed, but I've bought Racingbros Lycan seals as well.



Dougal said:


> I used to run wide open rebound. With the new seals I'm 3 clicks in.
> 
> Yes Pike oil is okay. It's similar viscosity at 40C but a bit thinner at 20C.


Cheers, will try Pike oil, or similar.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

knurra said:


> I'm about 130 pounds, so fairly lightweight. I'm using the fork straight from "shop", I can sense some stiction after riding on flat terrain. I think I will have proper service done and change to lightweight oil, it feels better do be "in" the range, rather than on one extreme end. The new seals were already installed, but I've bought Racingbros Lycan seals as well.
> 
> Cheers, will try Pike oil, or similar.


Pike oil (RS/Maxima 3wt) won't be enough of a change for you to notice. The shim stack dampers need a big change in oil viscosity to be noticable.

I've just released two Motorex options which are 1/3 and 2/3 the normal oil viscosity:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-5-cst-250-ml-motorex.html
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-10-cst-250-ml-motorex.html

Iv'e also got this one for rear shocks. But the extra heat capacity just isn't needed for forks:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hot-oil-clear-250-ml-shockcraft-2702.html

The Manitou seals are far better than RB. I think RB have reduced sealing too much. They don't keep oil in or dirt out as well as the Manitou low friction seals.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dougal said:


> Pike oil (RS/Maxima 3wt) won't be enough of a change for you to notice. The shim stack dampers need a big change in oil viscosity to be noticable.
> 
> I've just released two Motorex options which are 1/3 and 2/3 the normal oil viscosity:
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-5-cst-250-ml-motorex.html
> ...


Nice. Good job on sourcing that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## equinox (Oct 31, 2007)

Hey guys, 26" Mattoc running @140 will a 2.5 minion DHF fit?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

equinox said:


> Hey guys, 26" Mattoc running @140 will a 2.5 minion DHF fit?


Officially you're allowed 696mm OD and 63mm width (27.4x2.5") in the 26" mode. Have a measure up and see how close you are.
Based on my 27x2.6" DHF it'll be within a few mm (26" rim is 1" smaller than 27.5).

You can convert a 26" Mattoc to 27" clearance (extra 10mm radius, 20mm diameter to 716mm) by installing a 10mm spacer under the bottom-out bumpers and fitting the longer HBO cone.

Keep in mind Manitou's official figures are very safe and you're free to do what you like with your own fork.


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## knurra (Jan 15, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Pike oil (RS/Maxima 3wt) won't be enough of a change for you to notice. The shim stack dampers need a big change in oil viscosity to be noticable.
> 
> I've just released two Motorex options which are 1/3 and 2/3 the normal oil viscosity:
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-5-cst-250-ml-motorex.html
> ...


Thanks, I've not done the modifications yet. I guess I can "afford" quite a significant change in oil as I'm almost out of the range now.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Just to be clear, those are two different forks. In the photo above are the Mattoc Pro Boost 27-160. The ones with the bolt-on mudguard. Which you can take out a spacer to get 170mm. Brace design is the giveaway but it's not obvious in that photo.
> 
> The Mattoc Pro 29" is the one you're referring to which is 140mm. The same guy who owns the black Mattoc Pro Boost 27 also owns a Magnum Pro 29" which he runs with a 29x2.5 or 2.6 (can't recall). I stretched that fork out to 150mm for him.
> 
> It's all safe and working perfectly. But it's a modification by me, not a factory fork.


Sorry think I confused you Dougal...

Basic ask: Will a Mattoc Pro 27.5" at 150mm+ be able to run a 29er wheel with standard 2.4" tire (e.g. WTB i29 with Vittoria Goma 2.4 at 20psi)?

Basic gripe: Manitou still hasn't released a 29er long travel AM style fork (e.g. Mattoc) that does more than 140mm. With the new crop of AM geo bikes (Long, Low and Slack) I am seeing an increased need for a 29er fork that does more than 150mm but has 34mm+ stanchions. Won't throw my money at FOX or RS which leaves me only a few. Would rather send it to Manitou but alas they have nothing like that (YET).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Sorry think I confused you Dougal...
> 
> Basic ask: Will a Mattoc Pro 27.5" at 150mm+ be able to run a 29er wheel with standard 2.4" tire (e.g. WTB i29 with Vittoria Goma 2.4 at 20psi)?


No it won't. The Mattoc Pro 27 (non plus) forks cannot fit a 29".



gregnash said:


> Basic gripe: Manitou still hasn't released a 29er long travel AM style fork (e.g. Mattoc) that does more than 140mm. With the new crop of AM geo bikes (Long, Low and Slack) I am seeing an increased need for a 29er fork that does more than 150mm but has 34mm+ stanchions. Won't throw my money at FOX or RS which leaves me only a few. Would rather send it to Manitou but alas they have nothing like that (YET).


The Mattoc/Magnum Pro 27+/29" Boost fork (factory 140mm max) can and does. I have stretched one of these out to 150mm for a local customer running 29".
He loves it.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Basic gripe: Manitou still hasn't released a 29er long travel AM style fork (e.g. Mattoc) that does more than 140mm. With the new crop of AM geo bikes (Long, Low and Slack) I am seeing an increased need for a 29er fork that does more than 150mm but has 34mm+ stanchions.


A Dorado would look quite cool...


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## equinox (Oct 31, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Officially you're allowed 696mm OD and 63mm width (27.4x2.5") in the 26" mode. Have a measure up and see how close you are.
> Based on my 27x2.6" DHF it'll be within a few mm (26" rim is 1" smaller than 27.5).
> 
> You can convert a 26" Mattoc to 27" clearance (extra 10mm radius, 20mm diameter to 716mm) by installing a 10mm spacer under the bottom-out bumpers and fitting the longer HBO cone.
> ...


Thank you!
Do you work Saturdays? will be in your neck of the woods shortly for BMX and I could save myself some postage


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> No it won't. The Mattoc Pro 27 (non plus) forks cannot fit a 29".
> 
> The Mattoc/Magnum Pro 27+/29" Boost fork (factory 140mm max) can and does. I have stretched one of these out to 150mm for a local customer running 29".
> He loves it.


Ok thanks for the clarification. 
Was is something really involved to stretch it out to 150mm? Currently running 150mm on my Auron and love it with the 130 back, but still kick myself for not getting a Magnum/Mattoc instead of purchasing the Auron. Just the Manitou fanboy in me. Been keeping my eye on eBay to see if I can grab a Magnum Pro 27.5+ for cheap.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

What is your desire for the 150mm fork? If it's geo rather than travel then take note of axle-to-crown height, as Manitou forks can be quite tall in a2c sometimes and 140mm may get you what you want.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

equinox said:


> Thank you!
> Do you work Saturdays? will be in your neck of the woods shortly for BMX and I could save myself some postage


Sorry the weekends are my own. We can however drop orders with anyone else you know locally.



gregnash said:


> Ok thanks for the clarification.
> Was is something really involved to stretch it out to 150mm? Currently running 150mm on my Auron and love it with the 130 back, but still kick myself for not getting a Magnum/Mattoc instead of purchasing the Auron. Just the Manitou fanboy in me. Been keeping my eye on eBay to see if I can grab a Magnum Pro 27.5+ for cheap.


It's a top-out bumper modification.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Dougal said:


> The IVA never came with an air-valve. Yes a Magnum cap will let you run a shockwiz. If you like playing around.
> 
> You'd need to create a custom IVA valved cap to do what you want. But I'm not seeing the point really.


So I purchased the magnum air cap from CRC and they sent me a IRT! Score!

Just out of curiosity why don't you see any point in having a IVA system with an air valve which can be used with the shockwiz?


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

That’s how I’ve been doing it since 2002...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

equinox said:


> Just out of curiosity why don't you see any point in having a IVA system with an air valve which can be used with the shockwiz?


Because monitoring only air pressure tells you SFA about your suspension.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm surprised how popular the Shockwiz things have been. Maybe I shouldn't be, there are a lot of people always looking for something else to spend money on and anything with electronics like that is a popular item.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phreeky said:


> I'm surprised how popular the Shockwiz things have been. Maybe I shouldn't be, there are a lot of people always looking for something else to spend money on and anything with electronics like that is a popular item.


Marketing is powerful and most people are sheep.

Think about the people you know, how many take the time to learn something rather then take the easy way out for mediocre results? That's why shockwiz is popular. Easy way to get a "C-" set up with little to no effort. And in their heads, they are masters with an "A" set up thinking we put to much effort in.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Dougal, will you mail those oils to the US?

Second question...is it dumb to get those mailed from Australia to the US? LOL. I don't mind paying the markup to the guy who managed to ID and acquire the specialty oil, but airmailing a pint from Australia seems a wee bit wasteful.

I can't even seen to find anyone who sells this stuff in the US. Outside of bulk drums, anyway.

I'm sure anyone would say I don't need the ultralight oil at my weight (185lb/84kg), but I figure if I'm still finding myself wanting to run everything wide-open with Maxima 3w (14cSt), it makes sense to go another notch lighter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> Dougal, will you mail those oils to the US?
> 
> Second question...is it dumb to get those mailed from Australia to the US? LOL. I don't mind paying the markup to the guy who managed to ID and acquire the specialty oil, but airmailing a pint from Australia seems a wee bit wasteful.
> 
> ...


Yes we send to the states. Plenty of happy customers there. Going via Australia doesn't make any sense though.

We've even sold Motorex oil back into Switzerland!

I have a high-flow piston mod for these I will be selling as soon as I can get stock.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phuchmileif said:


> Dougal, will you mail those oils to the US?
> 
> Second question...is it dumb to get those mailed from Australia to the US? LOL. I don't mind paying the markup to the guy who managed to ID and acquire the specialty oil, but airmailing a pint from Australia seems a wee bit wasteful.
> 
> ...


Dougal sent me oil before (to ohio). It was here faster than if I ordered from Cali and had it shipped ups ground.

Honestly, everyone should just get their oils and seal from dougal. Shipping time and prices are pretty much equal.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

phuchmileif said:


> Dougal, will you mail those oils to the US?
> 
> Second question...is it dumb to get those mailed from Australia to the US? LOL. I don't mind paying the markup to the guy who managed to ID and acquire the specialty oil, but airmailing a pint from Australia seems a wee bit wasteful.
> 
> ...


When did Dougal move to Australia? Did Australia take over New Zealand and the news forgot to report it? I always find Australia and New Zealand so confusing, I mean how can you not get confused when they are further apart than the UK and Germany.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Cary said:


> When did Dougal move to Australia? Did Australia take over New Zealand and the news forgot to report it? I always find Australia and New Zealand so confusing, I mean how can you not get confused when they are further apart than the UK and Germany.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Australia and New Zealand have different Kings ruling them. 
That's how you tell them apart.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Yes we send to the states.  Plenty of happy customers there. Going via Australia doesn't make any sense though.
> 
> We've even sold Motorex oil back into Switzerland!
> 
> I have a high-flow piston mod for these I will be selling as soon as I can get stock.


are you familiar w/ Rock Oil from the U.K.? anybody?


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Marketing is powerful and most people are sheep.
> 
> Think about the people you know, how many take the time to learn something rather then take the easy way out for mediocre results? That's why shockwiz is popular. Easy way to get a "C-" set up with little to no effort. And in their heads, they are masters with an "A" set up thinking we put to much effort in.


I thought the Shockwiz did actual data logging, is that not true?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> I thought the Shockwiz did actual data logging, is that not true?


Sure, it does data logging. But the data is of air pressures. It's just not very useful information in the grand scheme of things.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Sure, it does data logging. But the data is of air pressures. It's just not very useful information in the grand scheme of things.


For you.

We bought one for our club at my suggestion. 97% of the riders out there DGAF about their suspension, in fact half of them actually think that the shop set it for them when they bought the bike.

Take my wife's bike for example. She doesn't know what ANY of those knobs do, so how am I going to find out whether her rebound is set right?

The shockwiz is a great way for me to help a rider go from an F- shock setup to a solid 'B' in under 30 minutes. It may not be perfect but it's a lot better than what anyone else has come up with.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Porch said:


> For you.
> 
> We bought one for our club at my suggestion. 97% of the riders out there DGAF about their suspension, in fact half of them actually think that the shop set it for them when they bought the bike.
> 
> ...


You know, I always tell people suspension is the most over-rated part of their bike. Most people have their suspension set up in a way that if they are lucky, is not working very well at all and if they are unlucky, is actually making their job a ton harder.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Porch said:


> For you.
> 
> We bought one for our club at my suggestion. 97% of the riders out there DGAF about their suspension, in fact half of them actually think that the shop set it for them when they bought the bike.
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part, I just don't think most people hanging out in the shocks and suspension forum are the people who need one. Some of the questions I get asked locally are astonishing. I laugh when people with $1000+ forks don't know what a rebound adjuster does and then brag about said fork. They are prime candidates as it will at least set up a decent spring rate. If your wife is anything like mine, she wouldn't notice a difference between a good set up or a bad set up. What's crazy is she is equally as fast either way. Then again, Mrs. Mullen gets better set ups then most, so maybe it's a moot point.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Yes we send to the states. Plenty of happy customers there. Going via Australia doesn't make any sense though.
> 
> We've even sold Motorex oil back into Switzerland!
> 
> I have a high-flow piston mod for these I will be selling as soon as I can get stock.


Oops. Sorry, the Australia thing just slipped out, I didn't stop to think about that one.

I was checking to see if there was anything available stateside, and I ran into the Redline oils for the first time...are these okay to use? I've never much cared for Redline products (big $$$), but they seem to have the only oils that are lighter than the 14cSt Maxima and available in small sizes. Blue is 10cSt and clear is 5cSt.

edit: will definitely take one of those piston mods! If that's coming soon, I'll just wait until then to try another oil.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phuchmileif said:


> Oops. Sorry, the Australia thing just slipped out, I didn't stop to think about that one.
> 
> I was checking to see if there was anything available stateside, and I ran into the Redline oils for the first time...are these okay to use? I've never much cared for Redline products (big $$$), but they seem to have the only oils that are lighter than the 14cSt Maxima and available in small sizes. Blue is 10cSt and clear is 5cSt.
> 
> edit: will definitely take one of those piston mods! If that's coming soon, I'll just wait until then to try another oil.


Redline oils should work. I've got the like-water clear here but only tested it, not used it. 20-40C it's very close to the Motorex Corex 5cSt: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-5-cst-250-ml-motorex.html


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Has anyone noticed this service guide.

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conte...attoc-Pro-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change.pdf

It states the oil for the damper side is Maxima 5wt and needs a height of 75mm, for the mattoc pro. All other service guides I have seen state Motorex 5wt at a height of 77mm, including Manitou's youtube mattoc service video.
Maxima 5wt is more comparable to Motorex 2.5wt according to this:

Peter Verdone Designs - Low Speed Damping

Motorex Racing Fork Oil 2.5wt 15.10 4.2 200
Maxima Fork Oil 5wt 15.90 3.5 150
Motorex Fork Oil 5wt 22.6 5.6 200

Does anyone know the reason for the difference in oil height and which oil Manitou actually use? The different oil will probably make a clicks difference on HSC/LSC/Rebound if that tbf.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> Has anyone noticed this service guide.
> 
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conte...attoc-Pro-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change.pdf
> 
> ...


Motor Oil Alternative for Semi Bath fork lowers- Mtbr.com

Oil height was a simple revision. Pro heights went up 2mm, Expert went up 3mm. The PVD oil numbers are outdated but close enough.

The video does not use Motorex 5wt oil. It uses Maxima 5wt. Manitou haven't used Motorex damper oil since the mid 00's.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Shlec said:


> Has anyone noticed this service guide.
> 
> https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conte...attoc-Pro-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change.pdf
> 
> ...


Well, that is an interesting change. So they are now using more oil in the damper.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Cheers Dougal, I have been using Fox Gold 20wt in the lowers and on top of the Air Piston however I may try motorex supergliss to see what the hypes about.

I'm still about confused about the oil and height. Please bare with me I am a noob. The video which was posted in 2016 shows a Motorex Oil bottle and says 77mm.









While the doc which is for 2017 mattocs and states 75mm. Either way i'm going to take your advise and go with the Maxima Oil at 75mm. I take it the service guide on Manitou's website is just wrong about the height?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> Cheers Dougal, I have been using Fox Gold 20wt in the lowers and on top of the Air Piston however I may try motorex supergliss to see what the hypes about.
> 
> I'm still about confused about the oil and height. Please bare with me I am a noob. The video which was posted in 2016 shows a Motorex Oil bottle and says 77mm.
> 
> ...


The Motorex oil that Manitou sold (all gone by about 2016) was a batch of Motorex 2.5wt which they had relabelled as 5wt to not cause confusion from Maxima 5wt. But for those who did their own research it caused a lot more confusion. Especially if you bought Motorex 5wt from other sources and found it ~50% thicker.

It took me 2 years to get to the bottom of that.

Oil height spec was originally 77mm but revised to 75mm. Both heights work but 75mm should give less room for foam.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Awesome thanks for the help!
One last question and its probably a dumb one!
There are a couple of versions of Maxima 5wt, Standard and High Performance. I presume the performance version has more additives to reduce friction however does this matter for just the damper? Which version would you recommend?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> Awesome thanks for the help!
> One last question and its probably a dumb one!
> There are a couple of versions of Maxima 5wt, Standard and High Performance. I presume the performance version has more additives to reduce friction however does this matter for just the damper? Which version would you recommend?


I'd use the Motorex 2.5wt. It changes viscosity less in the cold. Heat isn't an issue for forks.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Redline oils should work. I've got the like-water clear here but only tested it, not used it. 20-40C it's very close to the Motorex Corex 5cSt: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hydraulic-oil-5-cst-250-ml-motorex.html


Any downside to using redline oils in fork dampers? A fork won't need the heat resistance but does the lower lubricity (if that's the right term) impact breakaway force or longevity of friction parts like orings and seals? I've got The 2, 5, and 8 CST Redlines and thought about that when my wife's Mattoc needs a bleed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Doug said:


> Any downside to using redline oils in fork dampers? A fork won't need the heat resistance but does the lower lubricity (if that's the right term) impact breakaway force or longevity of friction parts like orings and seals? I've got The 2, 5, and 8 CST Redlines and thought about that when my wife's Mattoc needs a bleed.


Probably not. Let us know how you get on.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Doug said:


> Any downside to using redline oils in fork dampers? A fork won't need the heat resistance but does the lower lubricity (if that's the right term) impact breakaway force or longevity of friction parts like orings and seals? I've got The 2, 5, and 8 CST Redlines and thought about that when my wife's Mattoc needs a bleed.


They work just fine. I have used them in both the Mattoc and Dorado.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I've been using some Castrol fork oil that I picked up from a local auto parts store, meant for motorcycles. The Castrol bottles have an ISO listing that corresponds to the rated 40C cSt stated on the spec sheets from their website (i.e. Castrol 5W fork oil is marked as ISO15 and the website states 15 cSt).

I'm far from an oil expert, but it has been working for me quite well.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

So what's the revised height for Expert, 80mm?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Boom King said:


> So what's the revised height for Expert, 80mm?


That is a good question. Is the Mattoc comp what the old Expert used to be?

Also, I notice that 2017 Mattoc service guide is back to 15 mL per side (from 8) for the bath oil.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> That is a good question. Is the Mattoc comp what the old Expert used to be?
> 
> Also, I notice that 2017 Mattoc service guide is back to 15 mL per side (from 8) for the bath oil.


Found this...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> That is a good question. Is the Mattoc comp what the old Expert used to be?
> 
> Also, I notice that 2017 Mattoc service guide is back to 15 mL per side (from 8) for the bath oil.


Mattoc comp is completely different than the old mattoc expert. Different aluminum used, different damper, and steel air spring shaft. Because of this, very little crosses over.

Mattoc expert oil height was 80mm
Mattoc comp is 87mm

You can run 15ml in lowers now with no issue. Boost forks only.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Motor Oil Alternative for Semi Bath fork lowers- Mtbr.com
> 
> Oil height was a simple revision. Pro heights went up 2mm, Expert went up 3mm. The PVD oil numbers are outdated but close enough.
> 
> The video does not use Motorex 5wt oil. It uses Maxima 5wt. Manitou haven't used Motorex damper oil since the mid 00's.


I have used the Motorex 5w for 2 years. I have seen Peter Verdone's chart, and honestly, I cannot feel a major difference.

What I can feel is how much the LSC knob changes when some HSC is added. To use a bicycling analogy, it feels to me like the HSC is a front chainring, and the LSC is the cassette. When you have it on the minimum HSC you can click through all the LSC and it's still pretty light damping. This has been observed and commented by others several times throughout this long thread, but I am not sure anyone has said it recently.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> I have used the Motorex 5w for 2 years. I have seen Peter Verdone's chart, and honestly, I cannot feel a major difference.
> 
> What I can feel is how much the LSC knob changes when some HSC is added. To use a bicycling analogy, it feels to me like the HSC is a front chainring, and the LSC is the cassette. When you have it on the minimum HSC you can click through all the LSC and it's still pretty light damping. This has been observed and commented by others several times throughout this long thread, but I am not sure anyone has said it recently.


I've used the Motorex 5wt and I really didn't like the result. It increased quadratic damping through the small ports. Making sharp bumps harsh.

Shim stack dampers are better to run thinner oil. The reason 15 cSt oil is used is because it is the thinnest oil that can be economically produced. Below that you can also have issues keeping viscosity index up.

Thicker oils (like 22 cSt fork oil - Motorex 5wt) were used in open bath forks because they lubricate better. Thicker oils give a thicker lubricating film that slides better. Forks that have a closed damper (like our Mattocs) don't need that.

I did run Motorex 5wt in dorado for a few years for that reason (better lube on the open bath damper side) but Motorex have reformulated their oils for better lubrication so we're back to using the 2.5wt 15cSt in those now too.

The HSC and LSC do piggy back off each other. The HSC sets the upper limit of damping and the LSC controls the transition into that.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ColinL said:


> What I can feel is how much the LSC knob changes when some HSC is added. To use a bicycling analogy, it feels to me like the HSC is a front chainring, and the LSC is the cassette. When you have it on the minimum HSC you can click through all the LSC and it's still pretty light damping. This has been observed and commented by others several times throughout this long thread, but I am not sure anyone has said it recently.


This is by design. The hsc adjustment physically preloads the shim stack. The more you preload a shim stack, the more force is takes before it flows oil. Hsc fully open, the shims flow oil even on very slow shaft speeds, this makes the lsc adjustment have a very small effect on the damping as the shims are doing most of the work. As you preload the shims, it takes more force(higher shaft speeds) for the shims to open, this forces more oil through the low speed circuit, making the adjuster have a more noticeable effect.

Your gearing comment is a pretty good anology. It holds true to all suspension with both adjustments, not just the mattoc. Hsc sets your lsc adjuster range. The mattoc shows it more then other products because of preloading the shims rather then just a spring pushing on a shim stack to add stiffness to it.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Only down sides I've found w/ redline (so far), it seems to have corroded the instrument wire spring inside rc2 hsc... and the "like water" lubrication properties are quite low... but it speeds up the bleed process because it's so thin, bubbles are out instantly and you can dose in any of the other thicker bottles to get final viscosity exactly where you want


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Deerhill said:


> Only down sides I've found w/ redline (so far), it seems to have corroded the instrument wire spring inside rc2 hsc... and the "like water" lubrication properties are quite low... but it speeds up the bleed process because it's so thin, bubbles are out instantly and you can dose in any of the other thicker bottles to get final viscosity exactly where you want


Interesting about the corrosion. I used redline oils for a few years and agree completely with your post, though I never came across corrosion issues. Over all, good oil.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

This is somewhat referenced in the Manitou setup guide too, where I believe it describes (for some users/setups) setting the LSC to max (slow), adjusting the HSC until the desired LSC is achieved (i.e. for climbing), and then winding the LSC back for descending. Or something to that effect.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Are all these new oil height info for the newer Mattocs, or for the old original mattoc pros as well? 

I have a pair of the original pros (2014 or 2015) and was going to do the whole slickoleum on top of the piston, supergliss (10ml) in the lowers, and then the oil height to 77mm (or should it be 75, or does it matter?)


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

006_007 said:


> Are all these new oil height info for the newer Mattocs, or for the old original mattoc pros as well?
> 
> I have a pair of the original pros (2014 or 2015) and was going to do the whole slickoleum on top of the piston, supergliss (10ml) in the lowers, and then the oil height to 77mm (or should it be 75, or does it matter?)


Looks like it's 75mm now, Dougal mentioned the reason as less chance of cavitation I think.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> Interesting about the corrosion. I used redline oils for a few years and agree completely with your post, though I never came across corrosion issues. Over all, good oil.


It's good oil ime. 
Not sure i can blame the oil for corrosion either...serious quality control issues w/ that 2015 36design( several diff warranty returns and at this point in time I will not even ride something w/o checking their shotty service work). Damper was not torqued correctly from fox ca., left me scratching my head on the trail with fluid leaking out the top cap(usually there's a little oil left near the snapring after a bleed, but this was excessive)...turned out both the bolt under the bulkhead AND the top cap on the damper were not torqued to spec at fox service dept. (destroyed all my shims, luckily I stopped riding it to check)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

006_007 said:


> Are all these new oil height info for the newer Mattocs, or for the old original mattoc pros as well?
> 
> I have a pair of the original pros (2014 or 2015) and was going to do the whole slickoleum on top of the piston, supergliss (10ml) in the lowers, and then the oil height to 77mm (or should it be 75, or does it matter?)


Stick with the old figures for your fork. Especially on the lowers. The new info is for the boost forks that have a few areas redesigned.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> Looks like it's 75mm now, Dougal mentioned the reason as less chance of cavitation I think.


Aeration, not cavitation.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Aeration, not cavitation.


I thought it was the same thing but have since discovered it isn't.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boom King said:


> I thought it was the same thing but have since discovered it isn't.


Most people get them confused. Sometimes I wonder if some engineers fully understand what cavitation is


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> *I've used the Motorex 2.5 and I really didn't like the result. It increased quadratic damping through the small ports. Making sharp bumps harsh.*
> 
> Shim stack dampers are better to run thinner oil. The reason 15 cSt oil is used is because it is the thinnest oil that can be economically produced. Below that you can also have issues keeping viscosity index up.
> 
> ...


It could be that you're more sensitive to things than me, or it could be that I would readily notice if I rode a challenging trail and then did the swap and rode it again the next day.

I found "Maxima 54901 5WT Standard Hydraulic Fork Oil" on Amazon. Is that the recommended stuff?


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I've used the Motorex 2.5 and I really didn't like the result. It increased quadratic damping through the small ports. Making sharp bumps harsh.
> 
> Shim stack dampers are better to run thinner oil.


I assume that is why you have the thinner oils and you use those? I have Motorex 2.5 for my Diamond and my wife's Mattoc. However may go with a mixture of Redline fluids (Lightweight and Extra Light) I have for her Mattoc. Seems like lighter oil is better in that fork for her.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

All this talk of oil when Dougals casually dropped hints about new shiny bits with no pics to go with them


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Can anyone help me figure this out? I'm looking into a Mattoc Comp 27.5 Boost 160mm fork and adjusting it down to 140mm, and the site (as far as I can tell) says that the axle to crown length is 549mm for that 160mm fork.

Does that mean if I adjust it down to 140, it will then have an AtC of 529mm, the same AtC as the 120mm Mattoc, which is stated to have a 529mm AtC?

https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/forks/mattoc/

is that just because the air spring and CSU, etc are different lengths that 2 different versions of the mattoc with 2 different travel lengths can have the same AtC?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

twodogsfighting said:


> All this talk of oil when Dougals casually dropped hints about new shiny bits with no pics to go with them


These?

__
http://instagr.am/p/BeE1nOolmF3/


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> Can anyone help me figure this out? I'm looking into a Mattoc Comp 27.5 Boost 160mm fork and adjusting it down to 140mm, and the site (as far as I can tell) says that the axle to crown length is 549mm for that 160mm fork.
> 
> Does that mean if I adjust it down to 140, it will then have an AtC of 529mm, the same AtC as the 120mm Mattoc, which is stated to have a 529mm AtC?
> 
> ...


My Pro Boost 27-170mm fork is 569mm A-C. So in 160mm mode it's 559mm and 140mm would be 539mm.
I haven't seen a Comp model.

The non-Boost Mattoc is indeed shorter for the same travel than the long boost chassis. 10mm could be right.

My 27x2.6" Minion is 28.5" OD.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

On that topic, how is it that the non-boost Mattoc has an A2C 6mm longer than the boost version, both for 27.5 @ 160mm?

Those specs (current version) match the older Mattoc (i.e. 2015 variety). It's also odd that now the non-boost Mattoc has a listed max tyre width of 63mm, yet the 2015 model states up to 68mm (and aggressive 2.6" tyres, such as a DHF, fit without issues inc with a mudguard).

Have Manitou actually changed anything between the old 2015 27.5" Mattoc and the "new" non-boost 27.5x2.4 Mattoc, other than the inclusion of IVA or IRT as standard?

One other thing - can the older Mattoc Comp (2015 model) be travel reduced in the same fashion as the Mattoc Pro (using a couple of spacers) down to 140mm without any issues?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phreeky said:


> On that topic, how is it that the non-boost Mattoc has an A2C 6mm longer than the boost version, both for 27.5 @ 160mm?


Because the Boost-160/170mm has a top-out bumper that's a bit too long. I trim them down to gain another ~5mm extension so the fork's from me get claimed travel. At which point it's exactly the same height as the non-boost for the same travel. But the Boost 160mm can go up to 170mm if you want (I want).



phreeky said:


> Those specs (current version) match the older Mattoc (i.e. 2015 variety). It's also odd that now the non-boost Mattoc has a listed max tyre width of 63mm, yet the 2015 model states up to 68mm (and aggressive 2.6" tyres, such as a DHF, fit without issues inc with a mudguard).


Boost 160/170 Mattoc has a slightly lower height crown (3mm). Yes people run 27x2.6" DHF etc in the original Mattocs. It fits, but it's got less clearance than Manitou recommend.

Do at your own risk etc. Wheel flex could make it rub.



phreeky said:


> Have Manitou actually changed anything between the old 2015 27.5" Mattoc and the "new" non-boost 27.5x2.4 Mattoc, other than the inclusion of IVA or IRT as standard?


AFAIK the non boost Mattoc chassis hasn't changed. Just installed options, colours and tunes.



phreeky said:


> One other thing - can the older Mattoc Comp (2015 model) be travel reduced in the same fashion as the Mattoc Pro (using a couple of spacers) down to 140mm without any issues?


Yes. But different spacers I think to the Mattoc Pro. Either way it's just packing out the top-out bumpers by the desired amount.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Just switched my Magnum out from an IVA (which I was very happy with) to an IRT. This is just such a good fork! 

By far the best air fork I've ever ridden, and actually more plush with the IRT than even my coil ribbon (although that's on a slack Enduro bike, so maybe not a fair comparison...).

The IRT is brilliant too, gotta love being able to tune the small bump and the mid stroke separately.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

A mate's Mattoc Pro 2 has just developed a knock on fast compression. Any idea of the likely cause?

Cheers.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Is it possible to buy the lowers and convert an original Mattoc to boost?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ColinL said:


> Is it possible to buy the lowers and convert an original Mattoc to boost?


No. The CSU is wider as well.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> My Pro Boost 27-170mm fork is 569mm A-C. So in 160mm mode it's 559mm and 140mm would be 539mm.
> I haven't seen a Comp model.
> 
> The non-Boost Mattoc is indeed shorter for the same travel than the long boost chassis. 10mm could be right.


Very interesting, thanks Dougal! It's weird, the 120mm boost forks that are specced with the bike i'm putting this fork on have 530mm AtC lengths. i'm totally fine with getting 140mm of travel for the same AtC, though!


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

oh, crap. i assumed that having a 110mm axle on the mattoc comp meant that it would necessarily be able to handle a plus tire, but now i just noticed on manitou's fork manual here:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Fork-Owners-Manual-REV-E-Pages.pdf

that it only takes up to 2.6" tires!

i assumed that all boost forks were plus tire compatible


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> oh, crap. i assumed that having a 110mm axle on the mattoc comp meant that it would necessarily be able to handle a plus tire, but now i just noticed on manitou's fork manual here:
> 
> http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Fork-Owners-Manual-REV-E-Pages.pdf
> 
> ...


Yeah Boost and Plus aren't the same thing. All Plus are Boost, but not the other way. Boost has become the new normal axle size with 2.6" and plus quickly shrank from 3.4" to 3.0" to 2.8".

I run 2.6, a riding mate has 2.8" and there's ~3mm difference between them. But 2.8" costs 50% more!

What size do you want to run?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yeah Boost and Plus aren't the same thing. All Plus are Boost, but not the other way. Boost has become the new normal axle size with 2.6" and plus quickly shrank from 3.4" to 3.0" to 2.8".
> 
> I run 2.6, a riding mate has 2.8" and there's ~3mm difference between them. But 2.8" costs 50% more!
> 
> What size do you want to run?


Ordered some 2.8" tires, but I wanted to keep the option to go wider at some point. I guess I'm paying return shipping


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Does the boost fork even have any more clearance than the 15x100? Mine fits a Breakout 2.5 just fine, and that sucker is TALL. Probably like 28.5" OD. Running 35mm wheels, too.

I wouldn't want to get it any tighter, but I don't think any of the 2.6's have any more volume that what I'm currently running.

2.8's would be a definite no-go for me.


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## stereo007 (Jan 14, 2017)

bikegreece said:


> I sold my 2015 Mattoc Pro last Friday. I was super happy but I wanted a bit stiffer fork.
> I've been through the forums once again and I found some great ad offerings on 36's & Pikes.
> Yesterday I ordered a Mattoc Pro 2 from CR.


Is Mattoc Pro 2 as stiff as Pike at least? I'm about 200-210 lbs and riding steep, rocks, roots etc (but not jumping  ). and I'm little worried about stiffness..


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Yeah Boost and Plus aren't the same thing. All Plus are Boost, but not the other way. Boost has become the new normal axle size with 2.6" and plus quickly shrank from 3.4" to 3.0" to 2.8".
> 
> I run 2.6, a riding mate has 2.8" and there's ~3mm difference between them. But 2.8" costs 50% more!
> 
> What size do you want to run?


Referring to the new mattoc 3 boost with new crown design. Which tire size can the casting take?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

stereo007 said:


> Is Mattoc Pro 2 as stiff as Pike at least? I'm about 200-210 lbs and riding steep, rocks, roots etc (but not jumping  ). and I'm little worried about stiffness..


Im 250 pounds and have no noticeable flex.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Boom King said:


> A mate's Mattoc Pro 2 has just developed a knock on fast compression. Any idea of the likely cause?
> 
> Cheers.


Bueller.... Bueller.....


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

phuchmileif said:


> Does the boost fork even have any more clearance than the 15x100? Mine fits a Breakout 2.5 just fine, and that sucker is TALL. Probably like 28.5" OD. Running 35mm wheels, too.
> 
> I wouldn't want to get it any tighter, but I don't think any of the 2.6's have any more volume that what I'm currently running.
> 
> 2.8's would be a definite no-go for me.


I have a 2015 Mattoc (non-boost older style) and currently switch between a DHF 2.6 (plenty of room, fits a mudguard too) or Rocket Ron 2.8 (tight, no guard). I'm a fan of the fast rolling 2.8s when I'm using the bike for XC stuff over very bumpy terrain.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Boom King said:


> Bueller.... Bueller.....


First thing I would check is the headset. Second, is it happening on the compression stroke or the rebound stroke? Might want to pull the damper and check the oil hight.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

stereo007 said:


> Is Mattoc Pro 2 as stiff as Pike at least? I'm about 200-210 lbs and riding steep, rocks, roots etc (but not jumping  ). and I'm little worried about stiffness..


I'd say stiffer. The Mattoc Pro Boost 27-160 is Lyrik/F36 class. The amount of extra metal in the brace makes for a huge increase over the non-boost.



bansaiman said:


> Referring to the new mattoc 3 boost with new crown design. Which tire size can the casting take?


With a 2.6 Minion DHF (28.5" OD) I have ~13mm clearance to the brace right around in my Pro Boost 27-170. Crown to measured bottom-out there's about 3-5mm clearance.








Below are some oblique photos of 2.8" DHF in an identical fork.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Be_cG0tlUZh/


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bfg6VzFlSs6/


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Deerhill said:


> Only down sides I've found w/ redline (so far), it seems to have corroded the instrument wire spring inside rc2 hsc... and the "like water" lubrication properties are quite low... but it speeds up the bleed process because it's so thin, bubbles are out instantly and you can dose in any of the other thicker bottles to get final viscosity exactly where you want


Tuning for HT so took a photo of it...looks like it might be from temp change but not sure


----------



## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> First thing I would check is the headset. Second, is it happening on the compression stroke or the rebound stroke? Might want to pull the damper and check the oil hight.


The knock is happening on the compression stroke I'm told, high speed compression.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Boom King said:


> The knock is happening on the compression stroke I'm told, high speed compression.


I would still check the headset and pull the damper.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Okay, I just had a random showerthought. Not sure why I was even thinking about MTB suspension, LOL.

So, on Rockshox forks, the negative air chamber is filled by a port connected to the main chamber. Once the piston moves to the point where the port is open for both chambers, they equalize. Right?

On the Mattoc, the negative chamber is filled via the same valve as the main chamber. They are equal until you take the pump off. This is why the fork will compress easily with the pump connected; there is no pressure differential possible until the valve is closed. Right? I mean, I'm actually asking...this is accurate, right?

If so, can't you essentially tune the size of the negative chamber by removing the shock pump with the fork not fully extended? It's not as easy to tune as setting the negative side pressure separately, but it would be repeatable (e.g. inflate 50psi, compress fork 15mm, remove pump) and accomplish the same purpose, wouldn't it?

Just seems like an important thing that I've never seen mentioned. Is there maybe also a port on the Mattoc forks, making the chambers eventually 'reset' or something?


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

They only get equalised when the pump is connected, so yes you can "tune" the negative spring in that manner.

It essentially lets you set the positive and negative pressures separately. What it means in practice is that you can use it to make the fork feel very supple off the top and also drop the travel of the fork temporarily.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

phuchmileif said:


> On the Mattoc, the negative chamber is filled via the same valve as the main chamber. They are equal until you take the pump off. This is why the fork will compress easily with the pump connected; there is no pressure differential possible until the valve is closed. Right? I mean, I'm actually asking...this is accurate, right?
> 
> If so, can't you essentially tune the size of the negative chamber by removing the shock pump with the fork not fully extended? It's not as easy to tune as setting the negative side pressure separately, but it would be repeatable (e.g. inflate 50psi, compress fork 15mm, remove pump) and accomplish the same purpose, wouldn't it?


You can indeed. I think it's been discussed either somewhere in this thread or one of the other Manitou threads. There is no port or other doohickey for the chambers to reset themselves, so the balance between them will stay wherever it was when you removed the pump. It also works as a fast & dirty travel adjust, if you compress the fork enough before removing the pump, it won't return to the fully extended position which effectively gives you a travel reduction on the fork.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

aerius said:


> You can indeed. I think it's been discussed either somewhere in this thread or one of the other Manitou threads. There is no port or other doohickey for the chambers to reset themselves, so the balance between them will stay wherever it was when you removed the pump. It also works as a fast & dirty travel adjust, if you compress the fork enough before removing the pump, it won't return to the fully extended position which effectively gives you a travel reduction on the fork.


Yup, this fork is basically the IT air system but without the ability to remotely alter travel. If you ever had one of those forks, they were stiff at full extension but much, much softer with even a cm of travel reduced.

I think someone in Germany (one of those web sites) made a remote that would allow you to change travel on the Mattoc..


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Mattoc Pro 26" on ebay for $305 from bens cycles or $320 from bikewagoncat. Use code PSPRING20. Not as good as the previous deals at $226, but I've been looking every day to see if the price dropped and I dont think it's ever coming back.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

GuitsBoy said:


> Mattoc Pro 26" on ebay for $305 from bens cycles or $320 from bikewagoncat. Use code PSPRING20. Not as good as the previous deals at $226, but I've been looking every day to see if the price dropped and I dont think it's ever coming back.


https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/292452434912


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

mullen119 said:


> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/292452434912


That one is used with cosmetic scratches. You never really know how long its been used or how well its been looked after.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

GuitsBoy said:


> That one is used with cosmetic scratches. You never really know how long its been used or how well its been looked after.


Good catch, I thought it was new. I just came across them sub $300 for old stock 2015's somewhere but can't remember where.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Good catch, I thought it was new. I just came across them sub $300 for old stock 2015's somewhere but can't remember where.


Let me know if you remember.


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## lezhen (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm having a problem with the IRT holding air. It always leaks into the main positive chamber after a few hours of leaving the bike alone. It happens mid ride as well as my rebound just gets faster and faster. By the end of the ride the pressure on the main chamber would have went up by about 5-10 psi. I'm running at 40psi for the main chamber and 70psi for the IRT. Anybody has experience with the same problem?

I've checked the o-ring and it seems to be fine, the stanchions on the inside is clean without any scratches and the shaft on the IRT is scratch free as well. I'm using Stendec easyglide for installing the IRT. Anybody has an idea of what's happening or a remedy? Its a 2013 mattoc I bought off bikewagon through ebay. 

Thanks in advance


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

lezhen said:


> I'm having a problem with the IRT holding air. It always leaks into the main positive chamber after a few hours of leaving the bike alone. It happens mid ride as well as my rebound just gets faster and faster. By the end of the ride the pressure on the main chamber would have went up by about 5-10 psi. I'm running at 40psi for the main chamber and 70psi for the IRT. Anybody has experience with the same problem?
> 
> I've checked the o-ring and it seems to be fine, the stanchions on the inside is clean without any scratches and the shaft on the IRT is scratch free as well. I'm using Stendec easyglide for installing the IRT. Anybody has an idea of what's happening or a remedy? Its a 2013 mattoc I bought off bikewagon through ebay.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Mainly, I'm bumping this for you so that others can see it again.

I have not had an issue like that with the IRT. The seal would be the logical issue, but I don't know if any way to resolve it short of asking Hayes for a replacement unit.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

It has to either be the seal or the seal interface. If there are no scratches, triple-check that it's all very clean including under the seal and nothing is stuck in there. Then work the grease right around the seal and be careful it doesn't catch when inserting it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lezhen said:


> I'm having a problem with the IRT holding air. It always leaks into the main positive chamber after a few hours of leaving the bike alone. It happens mid ride as well as my rebound just gets faster and faster. By the end of the ride the pressure on the main chamber would have went up by about 5-10 psi. I'm running at 40psi for the main chamber and 70psi for the IRT. Anybody has experience with the same problem?
> 
> I've checked the o-ring and it seems to be fine, the stanchions on the inside is clean without any scratches and the shaft on the IRT is scratch free as well. I'm using Stendec easyglide for installing the IRT. Anybody has an idea of what's happening or a remedy? Its a 2013 mattoc I bought off bikewagon through ebay.
> 
> Thanks in advance


The only way this could happen is if air is getting past either the o-ring in the shaft or the piston seals. Did you buy the fork used or is everything new (but old!)?

As a quick remedy, I would run it without the IRT installed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lezhen said:


> I'm having a problem with the IRT holding air. It always leaks into the main positive chamber after a few hours of leaving the bike alone. It happens mid ride as well as my rebound just gets faster and faster. By the end of the ride the pressure on the main chamber would have went up by about 5-10 psi. I'm running at 40psi for the main chamber and 70psi for the IRT. Anybody has experience with the same problem?
> 
> I've checked the o-ring and it seems to be fine, the stanchions on the inside is clean without any scratches and the shaft on the IRT is scratch free as well. I'm using Stendec easyglide for installing the IRT. Anybody has an idea of what's happening or a remedy? Its a 2013 mattoc I bought off bikewagon through ebay.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Sorry, bit late to the party with this one.

That's the 0-ring *inside* the IRT piston wearing out. If they aren't lubricated on assembly the dry rubbing on the IRT shaft chews them out pretty quickly. You need a new -110 o-ring and a slathering of slickoleum. Undo the bolt on the end to slide the piston off and access the oring.

It's important the IRT shaft is checked for lube on brand new forks and when installing a new IRT assembly in any fork. If they're dry you can wear out that seal in 2 hours. I know because I've done it.

If they're lubed they last a very very long time.


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## lezhen (Dec 22, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies guys. 

I bought the fork and IRT brand new and did lube it up before installing. I just took the IRT apart as Dougal advised and I found fur (damn cats) stuck on the internal seal. I cleaned it out and put it right back in, hopefully it holds air now. Will probably still get a spare o-ring just in case. 

Is a 110 o-ring by imperial sizing with a 9.19mm ID and 14.43mm OD? Not too familiar with o-ring sizes. 

Thanks again for all the help guys.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lezhen said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys.
> 
> I bought the fork and IRT brand new and did lube it up before installing. I just took the IRT apart as Dougal advised and I found fur (damn cats) stuck on the internal seal. I cleaned it out and put it right back in, hopefully it holds air now. Will probably still get a spare o-ring just in case.
> 
> ...


Yes. But orings are usually sized by ID and section. So 9.19x2.62mm is a better description.


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## lezhen (Dec 22, 2016)

It's still leaking after cleaning it out, guess the O rings are worn. Gotta hunt down those O rings now. By the way Dougal, what's the size for the external O ring on the IRT? Gonna get a few of those as spares as well. Is there any specific rubber to get or will any O ring do?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lezhen said:


> It's still leaking after cleaning it out, guess the O rings are worn. Gotta hunt down those O rings now. By the way Dougal, what's the size for the external O ring on the IRT? Gonna get a few of those as spares as well. Is there any specific rubber to get or will any O ring do?


I think external IRT is -119. NBR 70 is your material. It's possibly the most common oring material.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> I think external IRT is -019. NBR 70 is your material. It's possibly the most common oring material.


good info right here! If it wasnt for Dougal I wouldnt have greased the shaft but rather just the outer o-ring when I installed mine.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

R_Pierce said:


> good info right here! If it wasnt for Dougal I wouldnt have greased the shaft but rather just the outer o-ring when I installed mine.


I thought everyone understood to grease the shaft. It is a sliding surface.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I think external IRT is -019. NBR 70 is your material. It's possibly the most common oring material.


Manitou told me before "O-RING 2-119 BUNA-N 70A" for the IRT o ring.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> Manitou told me before "O-RING 2-119 BUNA-N 70A" for the IRT o ring.


Oops. -119, not the -019 I wrote above.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Just picked up a new Mattoc Comp 27.5+ 120mm, and I noticed that the IVA in it is different than the IVA that came in my older Mattoc 2 Pro 160mm - essentially there is a white plastic spacer that reduces the volume even more than the IVA in Mattoc Pro 160mm

It looks like this:



http://imgur.com/qlYFC










Is the air volume of the 120mm version of the fork somehow that much larger than the 160mm version that the IVA needs to limit that much more volume or something? I would think it would be the opposite, with longer forks having more air volume available, but maybe I don't understand the internals well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> Just picked up a new Mattoc Comp 27.5+ 120mm, and I noticed that the IVA in it is different than the IVA that came in my older Mattoc 2 Pro 160mm - essentially there is a white plastic spacer that reduces the volume even more than the IVA in Mattoc Pro 160mm
> 
> It looks like this:
> 
> ...


Shorter fork needs a shorter air chamber.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Has anybody converted a 160mm mattoc pro down to 120mm? 

I recently pickup an older mattoc pro hoping to use it on my full squish, but I knew the 2.8 nobby nics would be tight. Unfortunately its beyond tight, and is actually making contact in all 3 sides simultaneously. So now I can either try to unload the fork, or I can try it on one of my lesser used bikes. I have an old hardtail running 2.6 nobby nics, which clear perfectly in the mattoc. The only issue is the frame is designed around a 100mm fork, but has been stretched to 120. I dont think I can go any more than that without issues. I'd like to try the fork out, and if I like it enough, maybe ill pony up the coin to buy he proper boost version.

Anyway, can I simply add a bunch of spacers or am I asking for trouble?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Has anybody converted a 160mm mattoc pro down to 120mm?
> 
> I recently pickup an older mattoc pro hoping to use it on my full squish, but I knew the 2.8 nobby nics would be tight. Unfortunately its beyond tight, and is actually making contact in all 3 sides simultaneously. So now I can either try to unload the fork, or I can try it on one of my lesser used bikes. I have an old hardtail running 2.6 nobby nics, which clear perfectly in the mattoc. The only issue is the frame is designed around a 100mm fork, but has been stretched to 120. I dont think I can go any more than that without issues. I'd like to try the fork out, and if I like it enough, maybe ill pony up the coin to buy he proper boost version.
> 
> Anyway, can I simply add a bunch of spacers or am I asking for trouble?


First thing, to try it easily:
Hook a pump on, squash the fork to 120mm and remove the pump. The fork will stay at that height.

Then if you like it, yes stack 4x 10mm spacers inside and you're good.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Shorter fork needs a shorter air chamber.


simply because the shorter fork compresses less? I guess I should have thought of that. but is there any downside to removing all the tokens and the white spacer, or swapping in a regular mattoc air cap? wouldn't that result in a more linear spring rate?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

xeren said:


> simply because the shorter fork compresses less? I guess I should have thought of that. but is there any downside to removing all the tokens and the white spacer, or swapping in a regular mattoc air cap? wouldn't that result in a more linear spring rate?


I tried that, didn't like it.
I weight 75~80Kg, and while playing with the tokens, the "no tokens and no white spacer" was the configuration I liked the least.
If I'm not mistaken, with no tokens I had to run with pressures around 75PSI, I prefer to run with the white spacer plus 3 tokens and 50PSI, super plush with good progressive behavior.
But if you want a more linear behavior, then yes, you can remove all the tokens and the white spacer, or just remove the o-ring that seals the IVA chamber.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Aglo said:


> I tried that, didn't like it.
> I weight 75~80Kg, and while playing with the tokens, the "no tokens and no white spacer" was the configuration I liked the least.
> If I'm not mistaken, with no tokens I had to run with pressures around 75PSI, I prefer to run with the white spacer plus 3 tokens and 50PSI, super plush with good progressive behavior.
> But if you want a more linear behavior, then yes, you can remove all the tokens and the white spacer, or just remove the o-ring that seals the IVA chamber.


shouldn't it be the opposite? the more air volume you have, the lower psi you can run to achieve the same sag, similar to how MTB tires use lower psi than road tires, and fat tires use lower psi still.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> shouldn't it be the opposite? the more air volume you have, the lower psi you can run to achieve the same sag, similar to how MTB tires use lower psi than road tires, and fat tires use lower psi still.


There are two things going on. Spring rate and preload.
Pressure sets both. But volume impacts spring-rate.

Smaller volumes have higher spring rates for the same pressure. That can also be stated as lower pressure for the same spring-rate.

Too much volume and you need higher pressure to maintain spring rate. Which gives you a high starting preload.

It gets complicated pretty quickly. But well worth experimenting with in your spare time.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

xeren said:


> shouldn't it be the opposite? the more air volume you have, the lower psi you can run to achieve the same sag, similar to how MTB tires use lower psi than road tires, and fat tires use lower psi still.


You are probably right, and as I mentioned, I could be mistaken about the pressure value, I don't recall it with enough confidence to say it was 75PSI for sure.
I didn't like the way the fork behaved with the IVA fully open so I might have played with the pressure a little too much.
Air pressure is mostly a personal thing, so you can just ignore that part in my post. I removed the snap ring at the bottom of the IVA cap so that I could remove all the tokens plus the white spacer and be able maximise the air volume.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Finally got around to installing the new seals rom Shockcraft. Wow! The fork is super sensitive now. Had to bump up my air pressure and added a few clicks of HSC. 

Pondering a new bike later in the year. What is the max travel of the 29er boost fork?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

shiny said:


> Finally got around to installing the new seals rom Shockcraft. Wow! The fork is super sensitive now. Had to bump up my air pressure and added a few clicks of HSC.
> 
> Pondering a new bike later in the year. What is the max travel of the 29er boost fork?


140mm, been having the same discussion with Dougal. He has a mod (will void warranty) that will jump it up to 150mm but 140mm is pretty much "legal" max for the 27.5+/29er boost fork.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

gregnash said:


> 140mm, been having the same discussion with Dougal. He has a mod (will void warranty) that will jump it up to 150mm but 140mm is pretty much "legal" max for the 27.5+/29er boost fork.


Bummer. With more long travel 29ers was hoping to see 150/160. Hope Manitou have something in the works.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Hi all together! I´m new in this forum, my name is Stephan (from Germany) and have a question about the Mattoc.

Today I got my Mattoc Pro 3 27,5+/29 (120-140mm of travel) to use in my Banshee Phantom.

But now there is a problem. The fork has only 110mm of travel. I also removed the 2 spacer from the air side, now there are 130mm of travel. Normally there now should be 140mm. What could be the problem? Perhaps too much oil in the damping side? I compressed the fork with shock pump attached etc., but at 130mm the fork blocks... I also saw that the lower legs are shorter than the ones from my Mattoc Pro 2. Is it normal, and what could be the problem with the travel?

Find attached some photos of the fork.

Many thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sgertler said:


> Hi all together! I´m new in this forum, my name is Stephan (from Germany) and have a question about the Mattoc.
> 
> Today I got my Mattoc Pro 3 27,5+/29 (120-140mm of travel) to use in my Banshee Phantom.
> 
> ...


Check you can compress the damper shaft to the bumper. If you cannot then it has too much oil. Correct oil height is 75mm down from the top with the fork fully extended.

On the air-shaft above you should be able to slide the end-cap all the way up and measure ~132mm from the underside of the cap to the top of the bottom-out bumper. You need to compress that bumper to get the full 140mm.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Hi Dougal,

thanks for the fast reply. 

I can compress the damper shaft to the bumper. For the second point I'm not sure if I get you right. See the photo I took, I guess there are only 10cm I measured. Or did I do something wrong?

Thanks


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Just another question: Are the big plastic spacers on the bottom of the shaft needed? I removed them, and now I have 140mm of travel, how it should be. I also have 0,5 cm space left from tire to crown, when completely compressed.

Is it possible that these spacers are ony needed for the version with 100mm?

Found an exploded view, seems to be normal with the big spacers at the bottom...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Put that big spacers at the bottom back.
They are there so that you don't damage your frame, your fork, and maybe kill yourself.
In the 29er and plus versions, because the lowers are taller the arc will it your frame and the tire will rub on your crown when fully compressed without those spacer at the bottom.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sgertler said:


> Hi Dougal,
> 
> thanks for the fast reply.
> 
> ...


It's arranged wrong. Slide the plastic bottom-out pedestal down to the bottom so it's flush with the end of the threads (like in your top photo) and then slide the bumper down onto that.

Measure from the cap down into the bumper.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Dougal said:


> It's arranged wrong. Slide the plastic bottom-out pedestal down to the bottom so it's flush with the end of the threads (like in your top photo) and then slide the bumper down onto that.
> 
> Measure from the cap down into the bumper.


Ok I will do today in the evening. Thank you.

But another question: In one of the former photos you see the maximum used travel of the fork. But there are still 3-3,5cm left on the upper stanchions. That looks really weird, like the fork has 160mm of travel... That could't be normal or is it? Also the casting is very short, its shorter than the one of my Mattoc Pro 2. I measured from bottom to the dust wipers only 32cm.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Aglo said:


> Put that big spacers at the bottom back.
> They are there so that you don't damage your frame, your fork, and maybe kill yourself.
> In the 29er and plus versions, because the lowers are taller the arc will it your frame and the tire will rub on your crown when fully compressed without those spacer at the bottom.


Hi Aglo,

you're right of course. But I wonder why the lowers are smaller than the ones in my Mattoc Pro 2...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sgertler said:


> Ok I will do today in the evening. Thank you.
> 
> But another question: In one of the former photos you see the maximum used travel of the fork. But there are still 3-3,5cm left on the upper stanchions. That looks really weird, like the fork has 160mm of travel... That could't be normal or is it? Also the casting is very short, its shorter than the one of my Mattoc Pro 2. I measured from bottom to the dust wipers only 32cm.


Your fork does not use all of it's stanchion. If it did the biggest tyre would have to travel well into the crown.

The casting and stanchion length is similar in all Manitou 34mm forks. Magnum/Mattoc+, Mattoc normal, Mattoc Boost and Mastodon. They are all variants for different wheel size using different axle location and brace heights.

I don't have a Mattoc/Magnum 27+ here to measure right now.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Your fork does not use all of it's stanchion. If it did the biggest tyre would have to travel well into the crown.
> 
> The casting and stanchion length is similar in all Manitou 34mm forks. Magnum/Mattoc+, Mattoc normal, Mattoc Boost and Mastodon. They are all variants for different wheel size using different axle location and brace heights.
> 
> I don't have a Mattoc/Magnum 27+ here to measure right now.


Ok thank you. So everything should be fine.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Dougal said:


> Your fork does not use all of it's stanchion. If it did the biggest tyre would have to travel well into the crown.
> 
> The casting and stanchion length is similar in all Manitou 34mm forks. Magnum/Mattoc+, Mattoc normal, Mattoc Boost and Mastodon. They are all variants for different wheel size using different axle location and brace heights.
> 
> I don't have a Mattoc/Magnum 27+ here to measure right now.


I can confirm that on the Magnum 27.5+ at 120mm there is 150mm from the top of the seal to the lowest part of the crown when uncompressed, leaving 30mm of exposed stanchion at full compression. It seemed strange, but I confirmed the axle to crown is correct, it is just the design of the fork to prevent bottoming the tire into the crown as Dougal says.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Cary said:


> I can confirm that on the Magnum 27.5+ at 120mm there is 150mm from the top of the seal to the lowest part of the crown when uncompressed, leaving 30mm of exposed stanchion at full compression. It seemed strange, but I confirmed the axle to crown is correct, it is just the design of the fork to prevent bottoming the tire into the crown as Dougal says.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yes thank you. Everything is correct. I became also the confirmation of Hayes in germany that it is correct.

Thanks to all of you!


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Finally had time to install the eBay mattoc. Question is it normal for the hsc and HBO knobs to get progressively harder to turn all the way closed? The HBO knob also turns with the hsc. So I'm thinking to set the hsc first then back off the HBO knob


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

mobilenemo said:


> Finally had time to install the eBay mattoc. Question is it normal for the hsc and HBO knobs to get progressively harder to turn all the way closed? The HBO knob also turns with the hsc. So I'm thinking to set the hsc first then back off the HBO knob
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's normal. The adjusters get harder to turn because you are putting physical preload on the shim stack and HBO spring.

The HBO adjuster spins when you adjust had, but it doesn't change the HBO setting.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> That's normal. The adjusters get harder to turn because you are putting physical preload on the shim stack and HBO spring.
> 
> The HBO adjuster spins when you adjust had, but it doesn't change the HBO setting.


Thanks for the explanation. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

sgertler said:


> Hi Aglo,
> 
> you're right of course. But I wonder why the lowers are smaller than the ones in my Mattoc Pro 2...


Sorry for the late reply.
Do you mean your lowers for 650B+/29er are physically shorter than the ones for 650B?


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Aglo said:


> Sorry for the late reply.
> Do you mean your lowers for 650B+/29er are physically shorter than the ones for 650B?


Hi. Yes, the casting of my Mattoc Pro 3 27,5+/29 is about 1cm shorter than the one of my Mattoc pro 2 26/27,5.

But its okay, Manitou says everthing is correct...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

sgertler said:


> Hi. Yes, the casting of my Mattoc Pro 3 27,5+/29 is about 1cm shorter than the one of my Mattoc pro 2 26/27,5.
> 
> But its okay, Manitou says everthing is correct...


My friend has a Mattoc 27.5 160mm Comp and I have Magnum 140mm Pro, but I never noticed that.
After read your post I went to check some part numbers and noticed some interesting thing.


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## sgertler (Mar 20, 2018)

Aglo said:


> My friend has a Mattoc 27.5 160mm Comp and I have Magnum 140mm Pro, but I never noticed that.
> After read your post I went to check some part numbers and noticed some interesting thing.


And what did you notice?


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Have a Mcleod on a 2013 Turner Burner my Fox fork is having issues again and think about a Mattoc. Found this online. For 320 USD it about the same as sending in a five year old Fox fork for service. Do you see any problem with the purchase? Thanks ..

https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=272410;menu=1000,2,121


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

Jurven240z said:


> Have a Mcleod on a 2013 Turner Burner my Fox fork is having issues again and think about a Mattoc. Found this online. For 320 USD it about the same as sending in a five year old Fox fork for service. Do you see any problem with the purchase? Thanks ..
> 
> https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=272410;menu=1000,2,121


Bike24 are legit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Any known issues with the mattoc listed I would be aware of?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

sgertler said:


> And what did you notice?


I mistake the part numbers from the Magnum 140mm 29er, with the ones from the Mattoc 140mm 29er Boost. So I noticed nothing .


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Jurven240z said:


> Any known issues with the mattoc listed I would be aware of?


Not really, but the new Mattoc is out, and that is the older model, and it is not Boost.
If I was needing a 650B fork I would get that one without second thoughts.

By coincidence I got my Magnum 140mm 29er from Bike24.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Aglo said:


> Not really, but the new Mattoc is out, and that is the older model, and it is not Boost.
> If I was needing a 650B fork I would get that one without second thoughts.
> 
> By coincidence I got my Magnum 140mm 29er from Bike24.


Other thing is that has the older seals that are more prone to stiction. Nothing that is inherently bad but the newer blue seals are better if you read back through the posts. That is an easy upgrade for you and would highly recommend doing it as well as changing out the oil since it is an advertised 2016 model and has probably been sitting on the shelf for a while.


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks Greg.. will keep it in mind when it arrives. Will try it at the 160 travel my current one is at 150 to see if I like it.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

I installed the new dust wipers today, wow :0 The difference with the previous ones is huge. I was kinda sceptical about the raving reviews on here, but they're really worth buying.
The old ones still were in good shape, and made sure to keep the dust/dirt out, but i'm really glad i replaced them.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

What's the part# for those improved dust wipers (extra smooth ones), compatible w/ the original expert 26/650b Mattoc ? forgot to look into those when Dougal mentioned 'em tia:thumbsup:


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/suspension-parts/fork-wiper-kits/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html Part nr is in the discription. Ordered them there with dougal myself. Couldn't find a supplier (with a decent deliverytime) in europe. Shipping to europe wasn't too expensive either, and only took about a week i think.

Edit: i also have a mattoc expert 650b, fully compatible indeed!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

In Europe they are at 30€ plus shippings, if you live in Germany you won't pay shippings costs.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

At shockcraft it’s about the same. Do you have some links @aglo? I asked several webshops but none had stock or were willing to order them. Only bike components have them on their shop, but delivery time unknown and after 1 week they still couldn’t give me a deliverytime....
I’m in belgium btw so delivery from most german webshops is 5,95. Shockcraft is only slightly more expensive and takes a little longer to get here. Next time i’d rather source them locally, but if no one can deliver i’d happily order them from dougal again.

Another question, i saw that bike24 have the mattoc pro2 very cheaply atm. I’m thinking about replacing my second bike and building up a new one with another mattoc fork. Does the pro2 already have the new seals? If not i’d probably replace them immidiatly. I know that fork doesn’t have boost, but i don’t mind.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Sure, here is the link: https://www.bike-components.de/de/M...it-fuer-Mattoc-Mastodon-Magnum-Travis-p59719/
I'm yet to order them because honestly I'm quite happy with my current seals and Motorex Supergliss as bath oil.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

hurck said:


> At shockcraft it's about the same. Do you have some links @aglo? I asked several webshops but none had stock or were willing to order them. Only bike components have them on their shop, but delivery time unknown and after 1 week they still couldn't give me a deliverytime....
> I'm in belgium btw so delivery from most german webshops is 5,95. Shockcraft is only slightly more expensive and takes a little longer to get here. Next time i'd rather source them locally, but if no one can deliver i'd happily order them from dougal again.
> 
> Another question, i saw that bike24 have the mattoc pro2 very cheaply atm. I'm thinking about replacing my second bike and building up a new one with another mattoc fork. Does the pro2 already have the new seals? If not i'd probably replace them immidiatly. I know that fork doesn't have boost, but i don't mind.


The pro 2 does not have the new seals. The mattoc boost and Mastadon are the first fork to get them stock. We were doing the testing on seals during the pro 2 days.

As for getting the seals, the new ones are the best available. Blue/green skf seals also work and are only a little stickier than the black manitou seals. If getting the manitou seals is difficult, I would go the skf route. Flanged for a fox 34 are what fit the mattoc

On a side note, there are some miss prints in the service guides on oil volume in the lowers. If a guide states 15ml, it is a miss print carry over from the original mattoc.
Official spec is 7ml in all 34mm forks. This will not change.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks mullen! I always use 10ml without issue in both legs. I have a first gen expert. Also motorex supergliss in mine. Supergliss is very easy to source here.

Edit: maybe not the first gen since my rebound already had the 9 clicks out of the box


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

hurck said:


> Thanks mullen! I always use 10ml without issue in both legs. I have a first gen expert. Also motorex supergliss in mine. Supergliss is very easy to source here.
> 
> Edit: maybe not the first gen since my rebound already had the 9 clicks out of the box


I have always ran 10ml as well. Running 15ml will eventually transfer some oil to the damper and thicken the damper oil as well raise the oil height. Official spec is 7ml though, even if the guides say 15.


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## corinthian (Feb 15, 2014)

Jurven240z said:


> Have a Mcleod on a 2013 Turner Burner my Fox fork is having issues again and think about a Mattoc. Found this online. For 320 USD it about the same as sending in a five year old Fox fork for service. Do you see any problem with the purchase? Thanks ..
> 
> https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=272410;menu=1000,2,121





gregnash said:


> Other thing is that has the older seals that are more prone to stiction.


I recently purchased the "2016" Mattoc Pro with IVA from bike24 for €279.99 and although I haven't had a chance to use it or have it to bits (still waiting on some Supergliss and I need to build a new wheel) I did notice one thing worth mentioning. Apart from the black stanchions, which obviously weren't stock in 2016, the fork also came with the new RXWT000255 seals. That was a very nice surprise.

So my guess is that they're putting together forks using a mixture of old and new parts to get rid of stock.

On a related note, I wasn't willing to get the Mattoc tool kit when all I needed was the special 8mm socket, so I followed Doug's advice from post #3205 and used a Dremel and a hand drill clamped in a workbench. It came out perfectly and was a very simple operation. I took some pics of the process so if anybody needs more info about the socket or the Mattoc that bike24 are selling, let me know.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Stupid question for you guys, just so I know all my options...

I have a 2014 mattoc pro (converted to 27.5) that wont clear my 2.8 tires. The boost mattoc pro is a bit too pricey for me to justify right now. The boost mattoc comp is much more reasonable. Would I be able to swap dampers, effectively turning the boost comp into a pro model without the IRT? I dont know what internal differences there may be between comp and pro, and from 2014 to 2018. Not sure if I'm thinking outside the box, or simply off my rocker.


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## Coleman22 (Nov 2, 2014)

I have an issue with my mattoc expert with IRT. Seems the air pressure in between the main air spring and IRT is equalizing. Is this likely just a simple seal issue?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Coleman22 said:


> I have an issue with my mattoc expert with IRT. Seems the air pressure in between the main air spring and IRT is equalizing. Is this likely just a simple seal issue?


There is either air getting past the outer quad ring or from the small o-ring the is between the shaft and piston. The outer quad ring is easy to change. The inner O-ring, could be more difficult.

You need to cover the piston in grease (slickoleum) and lots of it.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I have always ran 10ml as well. Running 15ml will eventually transfer some oil to the damper and thicken the damper oil as well raise the oil height. Official spec is 7ml though, even if the guides say 15.


Just about to pull my mattocs apart and do oil/seals - and of course the info I had for my mattoc pro says 15ml - good thing I popped in here for one final check - thanks for that.

Mine are the original mattocs (not sure what year - dont see anything on the forks) but for sure not a mattoc 2 or anything exotic.

One of em is supposedly a 26" - which I am going to change - I have heard rumors that there is a difference in offset of the 26 / 27.5?

Is the oil heights in the manitou literature correct ? or should I start sifting through the 3000 plus posts in here.

Have all my supplies I need from shockcraft!


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

About to do my original mattoc too (expert), the 26"/ 650b have the same offset, difference is just the hbo iirc

Damper oil height in expert is 80 correct?


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

New setup question. 

I´m running a 140 mm Mattoc Pro2 on an Orange Five. I trying to have a firm setup. Even with 95 psi in the fork (minimum amount of volumespacers in IVA) the rebound of the fork should be faster to match my shock. I´m running the fork fully open on rebound, hsc, lsc and with 4 clicks HBO in. Will just lower viscosity oil be enough to give me fast enough rebound? Should i get Motorex 5 c St or 10 c St? I´m currently running Maxima 5 Wt that should be about 16 c St.

Cheers


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

GuitsBoy said:


> Stupid question for you guys, just so I know all my options...
> 
> I have a 2014 mattoc pro (converted to 27.5) that wont clear my 2.8 tires. The boost mattoc pro is a bit too pricey for me to justify right now. The boost mattoc comp is much more reasonable. Would I be able to swap dampers, effectively turning the boost comp into a pro model without the IRT? I dont know what internal differences there may be between comp and pro, and from 2014 to 2018. Not sure if I'm thinking outside the box, or simply off my rocker.


It won't work. The CSU for the comp uses a thicker walled aluminum that has a smaller ID.

That said, the comp is still a killer fork. It still has HBO, you just can't adjust it, and the ABS+ damper performs excellent, it's just slightly less adjustable (externally, it can be reshimed). You would likely be more than happy with it


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Stupid question for you guys, just so I know all my options...
> 
> I have a 2014 mattoc pro (converted to 27.5) that wont clear my 2.8 tires. The boost mattoc pro is a bit too pricey for me to justify right now. The boost mattoc comp is much more reasonable. Would I be able to swap dampers, effectively turning the boost comp into a pro model without the IRT? I dont know what internal differences there may be between comp and pro, and from 2014 to 2018. Not sure if I'm thinking outside the box, or simply off my rocker.


As Mullen said the comp has thicker walled stanchions. So you can't swap internals. You can swap between Export and Pro. But not with Comp.



Coleman22 said:


> I have an issue with my mattoc expert with IRT. Seems the air pressure in between the main air spring and IRT is equalizing. Is this likely just a simple seal issue?


It'll be the seal inside the IRT piston that has worn out. Likely didn't get enough grease originally. It's a -110 oring which will need replaced and greased with slickoleum.



Deerhill said:


> About to do my original mattoc too (expert), the 26"/ 650b have the same offset, difference is just the hbo iirc
> 
> Damper oil height in expert is 80 correct?


26" was 41mm offset, 27" was 44mm offset.



Dystopism said:


> New setup question.
> 
> I´m running a 140 mm Mattoc Pro2 on an Orange Five. I trying to have a firm setup. Even with 95 psi in the fork (minimum amount of volumespacers in IVA) the rebound of the fork should be faster to match my shock. I´m running the fork fully open on rebound, hsc, lsc and with 4 clicks HBO in. Will just lower viscosity oil be enough to give me fast enough rebound? Should i get Motorex 5 c St or 10 c St? I´m currently running Maxima 5 Wt that should be about 16 c St.
> 
> Cheers


Change to the new low-friction seals. It makes about 3 clicks of difference in rebound. I used to run rebound wide open, now I run 3 clicks in with the new seals.

I run Shockcraft Hot Oil Pink. It's slightly thinner viscosity at 40C than the stock Maxima blue, but at 20C it's 2/3 the viscosity and even better colder.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

mullen119 said:


> It won't work. That said, the comp is still a killer fork. You would likely be more than happy with it


Thanks. At least that will quiet my head at least for that option. Ill probably just hold off until I save enough creditcard and cash back rewards to pop for the pro 3 boost. Or maybe wait till the end of the season when they might actually discount them a couple bucks.

In the meantime, I still have the O.G. mattoc pro on my hardtail which I can put a few more miles on to get a feel for it. And I have my pick of two x-fusion sweeps (RL2 and Roughcut), two fox 34s,an Epicon and an Auron to juggle between my FS and SS. It's not like I need another fork desperately. In fact, maybe I have a forking problem...


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks for the input.

I`m already on the low friction seals. Would it then be better with 5 c St och 10c St?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> I`m already on the low friction seals. Would it then be better with 5 c St och 10c St?


Honestly it seems a bit bizarre that your rebound is too slow. What's the rest of your setup and weight?
Does the fork run smoothly? What's your current oil?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Honestly it seems a bit bizarre that your rebound is too slow. What's the rest of your setup and weight?
> Does the fork run smoothly? What's your current oil?


I also thought mine was too slow trying to do the "parking lot test". It wasnt until Mullen suggested that I ride it that I noticed that test is worthless.


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

The long story about my setup:



I´m about 77 kg and trying to run a firm setup. My shock is an Rock Shox Monarch RT3 Debonair with 3 bottomless rings and 205 psi on a singel pivot bike. If I jump the bike on a parking lot the rebound both in the front and the rear is fast enough to overshoot the sagpoint once before settling. The rebound of the fork is not way off, but when jumping the bike on the trail there is a slight tendency for the bike to buck a little bit. The very high pressure in the fork is mostly an effect from that I definitely want the fork to be firmer than the shock, and I want the high pressure in the shock to prevent hard bottom out and make the bike more responsive. My current setup gives up a lot in traction in slow speed due to the high air pressures, but I want to try it out.



The fork feels ok when it comes to sticktion, but it´s actually a little hard to tell since I´m running it very firm. I previously had some problems with the damper, but that seems resolved and I can bottom out the fork (but it takes a huck to flat...). For lubrication there is still some thin fork fluid in the lowers that I have been using during the Swedish winter. I plan to change that back to Fox Gold when I change the damper oil. The temperature here in Sweden the last rides have been about 10-15 C.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dystopism said:


> The long story about my setup:
> 
> I´m about 77 kg and trying to run a firm setup. My shock is an Rock Shox Monarch RT3 Debonair with 3 bottomless rings and 205 psi on a singel pivot bike. If I jump the bike on a parking lot the rebound both in the front and the rear is fast enough to overshoot the sagpoint once before settling. The rebound of the fork is not way off, but when jumping the bike on the trail there is a slight tendency for the bike to buck a little bit. The very high pressure in the fork is mostly an effect from that I definitely want the fork to be firmer than the shock, and I want the high pressure in the shock to prevent hard bottom out and make the bike more responsive. My current setup gives up a lot in traction in slow speed due to the high air pressures, but I want to try it out.
> 
> The fork feels ok when it comes to sticktion, but it´s actually a little hard to tell since I´m running it very firm. I previously had some problems with the damper, but that seems resolved and I can bottom out the fork (but it takes a huck to flat...). For lubrication there is still some thin fork fluid in the lowers that I have been using during the Swedish winter. I plan to change that back to Fox Gold when I change the damper oil. The temperature here in Sweden the last rides have been about 10-15 C.


From the sounds of it you need more rebound control in the rear shock, not the fork. Speeding up the rebound of the fork isn't going to keep the bike from bucking you. That's all rear rebound control.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## adamxrt (May 12, 2015)

Ive come in here at the right time it seems as there is some discussion about oil heights and volumes again. ive been through this thread before, but i'm on my break in work here and dont have time to search. I see a few posts about oil and stuff above.

I did my forks lowers and my damper oil there not long ago. I too used 15ccs as per the guide.

my main issue i have with my fork is travel loss. I also end up with a little bit of lowers oil in the schrader valve fr the main chamber some times.

But the travel loss is annoying. I have an OEM mattoc expert off a VITUS SOMMET 2016.

I diagnosed the travel loss to be being caused by the damper by taking the forks apart putting them back together with just the damper leg fitted with compression assembly but no air piston assembly in the other stanchion. I couldn't fully depress the fork atall. it stopped maybe around 145mm. Its been like this for a while, but then ever so often it seems like i do get full travel. Environmental conditions causing lower pressures inside etc? ive ridden alot in -0 degrees Celsius conditions this winter. And lots in cold wet 1-5 degrees celcius.

SO as i said i redid the damper oil and lowers and tested it again, full travel! lovley. reassembled it, 15cc oil per leg, (forgot about the 7ccs in here and i wasnt gonna search all the pages on my phone in the garage). I left the bike for a week and a half then rode it yesterday. Back to 145mm travel max. i had tried it in the street only after the rebuild.

So last night, i opened the damper cap and deflated the IRT and main chamber. got my full travel. i let the compression piston drain in the sink, i guess it maybe lost a few cc's of oil cause when i measured i was 83-85mm deep in the leg instead of 80mm and there was a nice pool in the sink. re assembled cap, back to full travel for now, when the air pistons isnt inflated. i managed to get 150mm compression in the street afterwards.

Did opening the damper cap and cycling it release some pressure or did draining the damper cap get me more travel?

maybe with 15ccs, im forcing lowers oil into the damper? i dont know.

Riding on friday after work so il shall expect to see more travel used.

i also have this theory.....would it make any difference if the damper cap was screwed on if the fork was sitting say halfway thru its travel as opposed to fully extended? could that affect travel loss? theoretically there would be more of the compression rod inside the damper and maybe it would lower the pressure inside the damper than if the cap was screwed on at full extension? or am i talking out of my hole!

TL;DR i think 80mm depth damper oil is too much still for my OEM mattocks from a 16 vitus sommet as i dont use full travel...or lowers oil is getting in...but i think that is less likely.

EDIT i used: Weldtite TF2 Cycle Suspension Fluid | Chain Reaction Cycles in 5wt form CRC for the damper as it was all i could get.

I also used castrol 10wt part synthetic in the lowers, as again its all i can get in ireland.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

adamxrt said:


> Ive come in here at the right time it seems as there is some discussion about oil heights and volumes again. ive been through this thread before, but i'm on my break in work here and dont have time to search. I see a few posts about oil and stuff above.
> 
> I did my forks lowers and my damper oil there not long ago. I too used 15ccs as per the guide.
> 
> ...


Lower oil can in fact seep past the seal and get into the damper causing travel loss when using 15cc of oil. I just had this discussion the other day with Mullen. I was also using 15cc, and have since dropped it to 10cc in each lower (instead of the 7cc it calls for)

What is your travel set at?? 145mm out of 150mm is probably about right as you will have the HBO that it starts to rest against. Now if you are at 160 travel and only getting 145mm then I would say it is indeed something else.

I would start with the lower bath oil at the correct volume and see how it acts after a few rides.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Check travel spacer config...and w/ pump attached, pull on the lowers till topped out*

I dbl checked the damper oil height chart last night, 2014-16 expert says 80 from the top. Unless it has been updated since '14 (lighter wt seems better ime)...


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## Dystopism (Oct 2, 2013)

R_Pierce said:


> From the sounds of it you need more rebound control in the rear shock, not the fork. Speeding up the rebound of the fork isn't going to keep the bike from bucking you. That's all rear rebound control.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


This is a little embarrassing, but I need to confess. I checked my bike and the shock is much slower than the fork. The fork rebound is very fast and I was probably way off about what was happening. Instead of getting bucked from the shock being faster than the fork, the sensation is probably that the fork is so stiff and rebounds so fast when i try to pre-load it into a jump that it tops out before i pull up and way before the shock rebounds. This probably gives the bucking sensation.

Its not even funny to be this wrong...


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dystopism said:


> This is a little embarrassing, but I need to confess. I checked my bike and the shock is much slower than the fork. The fork rebound is very fast and I was probably way off about what was happening. Instead of getting bucked from the shock being faster than the fork, the sensation is probably that the fork is so stiff and rebounds so fast when i try to pre-load it into a jump that it tops out before i pull up and way before the shock rebounds. This probably gives the bucking sensation.
> 
> Its not even funny to be this wrong...


No worries!! And still sounds odd. If it's bucking you (seat kicking up) it's likely a rear rebound issue.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Dystopism said:


> This is a little embarrassing, but I need to confess. I checked my bike and the shock is much slower than the fork. The fork rebound is very fast and I was probably way off about what was happening. Instead of getting bucked from the shock being faster than the fork, the sensation is probably that the fork is so stiff and rebounds so fast when i try to pre-load it into a jump that it tops out before i pull up and way before the shock rebounds. This probably gives the bucking sensation.
> 
> Its not even funny to be this wrong...


Good job raising your hand admitting you were.....misguided. We respect you more for that!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

adamxrt said:


> Ive come in here at the right time it seems as there is some discussion about oil heights and volumes again. ive been through this thread before, but i'm on my break in work here and dont have time to search. I see a few posts about oil and stuff above.
> 
> I did my forks lowers and my damper oil there not long ago. I too used 15ccs as per the guide.
> 
> ...


The latest version of the mattoc rebuild video on youtube still says 15cc, but in big writing during the video its says to now use 7.5.

It also lists the oil heights for each model now as well.


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## corinthian (Feb 15, 2014)

006_007 said:


> The latest version of the mattoc rebuild video on youtube still says 15cc, but in big writing during the video its says to now use 7.5.


That's it, although just to nitpick it's 7 both in the vid and the current literature:


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I upgraded my Magnum to the latest wipers and seals and now about 20 hours later I'm pretty consistently seeing oil on the stanchions. Is this common? Anything I can do better?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

I have another annoying question for the masses...

Has anyone stuffed a 27.5x2.8 or 3.0 tire in the boost 110 27.5 fork? I'm sure the tire fits width wise on the boost forks, but has the arch been raised from previous models on the new boost version? I know the MY2014 non-boost did not clear neither width nor height.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*What's the part# for the 27" offset lowers?*

Originally Posted by Deerhill 
About to do my original mattoc too (expert), the 26"/ 650b have the same offset, difference is just the hbo iirc

.


Dougal said:


> 26" was 41mm offset, 27" was 44mm offset.
> 
> I run Shockcraft Hot Oil Pink. It's slightly thinner viscosity at 40C than the stock Maxima blue, but at 20C it's 2/3 the viscosity and even better colder.


Anyone know if the 27" lowers fit the original 26" mattoc expert chassis?

Guess the next question would be if there's a non-boost and a boost version of those 27" mk lowers?tia


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> I have another annoying question for the masses...
> 
> Has anyone stuffed a 27.5x2.8 or 3.0 tire in the boost 110 27.5 fork? I'm sure the tire fits width wise on the boost forks, but has the arch been raised from previous models on the new boost version? I know the MY2014 non-boost did not clear neither width nor height.


The Mattoc Pro Boost with 170mm? Yes I know people running Maxxis DHF 2.8. It's a few mm bigger than Manitou's officially allowed size (DHF 2.6). But we've checked clearance and for that specific case on that rim (can't recall) it works.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> The Mattoc Pro Boost with 170mm? Yes I know people running Maxxis DHF 2.8. It's a few mm bigger than Manitou's officially allowed size (DHF 2.6). But we've checked clearance and for that specific case on that rim (can't recall) it works.


I usually see them spec'ed 27.5 at 160mm, but yes. Not the specific 27.5+ version. I probably wont use all the travel, but I dont want the weight penalty of the 27.5+ version either. But my nobby nic 2.8s measure very close to 3" across in an i45 rim, and I'm just wondering if that might be a bit too close for comfort.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Originally Posted by Deerhill
> About to do my original mattoc too (expert), the 26"/ 650b have the same offset, difference is just the hbo iirc
> 
> .
> ...


The original Mattoc lowers are all 27" compatible. The only 26" specific ones are I believe on the new Circus Pro (which is now using the 34mm Mattoc chassis).

Offset differences in 26 vs 27" are in the crown. The lowers are the same.

The new 27" Boost Pro Mattoc runs the same offset as the earlier 26".


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> I usually see them spec'ed 27.5 at 160mm, but yes. Not the specific 27.5+ version. I probably wont use all the travel, but I dont want the weight penalty of the 27.5+ version either. But my nobby nic 2.8s measure very close to 3" across in an i45 rim, and I'm just wondering if that might be a bit too close for comfort.











That's DHF 2.6". Brace measures 88mm internal width.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> View attachment 1196201
> 
> 
> That's DHF 2.6". Brace measures 88mm internal width.


Hmmm. Thats gonna be close. Tire measures 75mm. Not much room for error.

Thank you very much for the pictures. If you were local, I'd offer to wash your bike for you.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Hmmm. Thats gonna be close. Tire measures 75mm. Not much room for error.
> 
> Thank you very much for the pictures. If you were local, I'd offer to wash your bike for you.


Very kind of you. No-one else offers to wash my bike. 
I sold that frame shortly after. The mud went with it!

New ride:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bg2GQp9l2uQ/


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Very kind of you. No-one else offers to wash my bike.
> I sold that frame shortly after. The mud went with it!
> 
> New ride:
> ...


Looks great. I'm sure it didn't stay that clean for long.


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

My 2016 Mattoc 2 Pro with IVA (Bike24 sale) also came with the black stanchions and the new RXWT000255 seals. After a few rides (by the way love the fork) decided to open it up to check the levels. Found that there was no set screw for the rebound knob. The knob was in there tight though. Do you all think the set screw is need? Think i stripped a few threads while turning the allen wrench trying to turn the missing screw.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Very kind of you. No-one else offers to wash my bike.
> I sold that frame shortly after. The mud went with it!
> 
> New ride:
> ...


Blurred out brake calipers? Bike looks good, had much time on the Manitou Jack?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Blurred out brake calipers? Bike looks good, had much time on the Manitou Jack?


I've been riding a Jack post for almost a year. But swapped the original 125mm version for a 150mm sometime in December.

I rate them. Lock up and down. Safety release inside so they don't suck full of air if you do manage to pull it up when locked down. I had to regrease my 150mm one once. The cartridge inside is self contained and rebuildable.

The only issue is Manitou don't yet have service kits. I keep asking as we've got a few out there. Only real wear part is a rubber valve disc inside.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> I've been riding a Jack post for almost a year. But swapped the original 125mm version for a 150mm sometime in December.
> 
> I rate them. Lock up and down. Safety release inside so they don't suck full of air if you do manage to pull it up when locked down. I had to regrease my 150mm one once. The cartridge inside is self contained and rebuildable.
> 
> The only issue is Manitou don't yet have service kits. I keep asking as we've got a few out there. Only real wear part is a rubber valve disc inside.


Sounds good, don't see any reviews on them. Interested in one for a future bike just wish there was a 170mm option and a 160mm beefy Mattoc in 29"!


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Offset differences in 26 vs 27" are in the crown. The lowers are the same.


Thanks. Think that's where my confusion was. Do those 27" mk expert stanchions have more volume than the 26"?

On another note, next round of tuning I need to check how much volume that black foam takes up on the compression assembly..to see how much progression can be removed, if any, have you ever removed the black foam compensator (maybe make the damper side more linear)? I'm not exactly sure how much it's needed, or if it's even adding progressiveness, maybe some of it can be removed and still function


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Very kind of you. No-one else offers to wash my bike.
> I sold that frame shortly after. The mud went with it!
> 
> New ride:
> ...


Dougal, still have to submit my report of an inappropriate pictures to Instagram for you. Can't believe the NZ government is letting you get away with all that modified tactical and assault sockets and impact wrenches!!! And I about fainted when I saw that fully automatic one.... my snowflake senses just couldnt take the visual carnage!! LOL


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Maybe the other pro mk damper is worth looking into? Swapping mattoc from ht to 165mm fs shortly..


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Thanks. Think that's where my confusion was. Do those 27" mk expert stanchions have more volume than the 26"?
> 
> On another note, next round of tuning I need to check how much volume that black foam takes up on the compression assembly..to see how much progression can be removed, if any, have you ever removed the black foam compensator (maybe make the damper side more linear)? I'm not exactly sure how much it's needed, or if it's even adding progressiveness, maybe some of it can be removed and still function


Expert stanchions are the same as Pro. But the pro has the rebound cartridge tube which reduces oil volume (and weight).
the black foam on the compression assembly is for noise and foam reduction. It raises the oil level higher and uses the squishing foam to take up the volume of the shaft entering and leaving. When the oil levels are correct it takes minimal force to fully compress the shaft.

Manitou have recently discontinued the Expert damper parts and encourage people to swap over to the Pro damper. The setup now is Comp (ABS+ damper) or Pro (MC^2 cartridge damper)



gregnash said:


> Dougal, still have to submit my report of an inappropriate pictures to Instagram for you. Can't believe the NZ government is letting you get away with all that modified tactical and assault sockets and impact wrenches!!! And I about fainted when I saw that fully automatic one.... my snowflake senses just couldnt take the visual carnage!! LOL


I'll continue to force the issue and see if they dare!


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## usernamehere (Mar 19, 2009)

I just stumbled upon this thread. So much info! You guys are awesome!
I recently got mattoc pro 2 27.5 non boost and after installing minion 2.6 i would like to upsize the tire still. 
Is it possible to swap Magnum Lowers into mattoc? Looks like CRC has them in stock as well
Thanks in advance!.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

usernamehere said:


> I just stumbled upon this thread. So much info! You guys are awesome!
> I recently got mattoc pro 2 27.5 non boost and after installing minion 2.6 i would like to upsize the tire still.
> Is it possible to swap Magnum Lowers into mattoc? Looks like CRC has them in stock as well
> Thanks in advance!.


Magnum is boost.

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## usernamehere (Mar 19, 2009)

Ah - yes i missed that part.
Is there anything else that can fit or did I just buy wrong fork?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

usernamehere said:


> Ah - yes i missed that part.
> Is there anything else that can fit or did I just buy wrong fork?


Bought the wrong fork of you want a larger tire than a 2.6. That is plenty of tire though really. Do you have a specific need for more??

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## usernamehere (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Pierce
I originally bought the fork to run spank oozy 395 on my 27.5 Heckler. When i put it together i realized there is way too much overlap with my 29 ENDURO. So Heckler is going for sale and i got a Norco torrent frame. This is where i am now  all this is financed through selling my all 26” stuff. Norco will definitely need bigger tired to get the the most out of it. Methinks


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

usernamehere said:


> Thanks Pierce
> I originally bought the fork to run spank oozy 395 on my 27.5 Heckler. When i put it together i realized there is way too much overlap with my 29 ENDURO. So Heckler is going for sale and i got a Norco torrent frame. This is where i am now  all this is financed through selling my all 26" stuff. Norco will definitely need bigger tired to get the the most out of it. Methinks


I think you may be surprised . Have you given it a rip yet with the 2.6?? I came from a plus bike (27.5 x 2.8) to a standard 27.5 x 2.4 and I'll take the 2.4 over the 2.8 all day. Plenty of traction and a heck of a lot less rolling resistance.

BUT by all means it's 100% personal preference.

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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

I've got a little bit of leakage at the bottom of my Magnum Pro, where the rebound knob is on one side and the air fill is on the other. After dropping the lowers, I don't see any kind of seal there...which might be my fault from a previous time I changed the oil. What is supposed to go there?

Edit: after reading some more, it seems like this is a common problem if the oil is overfilled? I was very careful to put only 7cc of oil in last time, but who knows what it originally came with (and i've ignored this problem for a while). 

I will pull the air side apart and get the oil out of the negative chamber, but i'm not sure what to do about the damper side.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Porch said:


> I've got a little bit of leakage at the bottom of my Magnum Pro, where the rebound knob is on one side and the air fill is on the other. After dropping the lowers, I don't see any kind of seal there...which might be my fault from a previous time I changed the oil. What is supposed to go there?


There should be a rubber washer seal on each threaded portion.

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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

R_Pierce said:


> There should be a rubber washer seal on each threaded portion.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Aha! Found it in the bottom of my lowers. I was expecting an o-ring, not a giant rubber washer. Thanks!


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

So the recent video and older literature for the Pro 2 says 77mm oil level in the damper and 7cc semi bath in the lowers. The 2017/2018 service guide says 75mm and 15cc. Who's doing what right/wrong and why?!


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Hi there, I recently stripped and rebuilt my 2016 mattoc experts I also removed a travel spacer to up the forks to 160mm. My 1st few rides were amazing, the forks and the bike felt better than ever however the forks then developed a knock on the rebound stoke which stayed for a couple of small rides then went away of its own accord. It is now back and I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what might be causing it. I know it's difficult without experiencing it yourself but just thought someone might have had the same issue. The knock is every rebound stroke big or small as soon as the fork rebounds. It's like something sticking maybe and can be felt through the bars. I'd like to know what to be looking for when stripping them back down.

Any help or advice is much appreciated. 

Regards 

Martyn


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Derg33 said:


> Hi there, I recently stripped and rebuilt my 2016 mattoc experts I also removed a travel spacer to up the forks to 160mm. My 1st few rides were amazing, the forks and the bike felt better than ever however the forks then developed a knock on the rebound stoke which stayed for a couple of small rides then went away of its own accord. It is now back and I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what might be causing it. I know it's difficult without experiencing it yourself but just thought someone might have had the same issue. The knock is every rebound stroke big or small as soon as the fork rebounds. It's like something sticking maybe and can be felt through the bars. I'd like to know what to be looking for when stripping them back down.
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Is it as the fork tops out?

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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

tomvanhalen said:


> So the recent video and older literature for the Pro 2 says 77mm oil level in the damper and 7cc semi bath in the lowers. The 2017/2018 service guide says 75mm and 15cc. Who's doing what right/wrong and why?!


75mm and 7cc. I use 75mm and 10cc personally.

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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I have to admit that mattoc with coil blown me away. Its so sensitive and the damper is pretty open on compression, doesnt spikes at all. Great fork.

Unfortunately its air spring doesnt fit me stock nor with IRT. Prefered Luftkapped Pike - its better for more freeride oriented riders. 

Clicking could cause rebound face shim. It sticks to piston. If it clicks at top out, mine didnt has washer under air piston. So it extends too far and damper stopped fork movement with knock.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> I have to admit that mattoc with coil blown me away. Its so sensitive and the damper is pretty open on compression, doesnt spikes at all. Great fork.
> 
> Unfortunately its air spring doesnt fit me stock nor with IRT. Prefered Luftkapped Pike - its better for more freeride oriented riders.
> 
> Clicking could cause rebound face shim. It sticks to piston. If it clicks at top out, mine didnt has washer under air piston. So it extends too far and damper stopped fork movement with knock.


Where did you get to try a coil converted mattoc?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> Where did you get to try a coil converted mattoc?


I was just going to ask this

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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Just find a proper coil, design new piston and upper preload system, CNC it and put in fork


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

It's as soon as it starts to rebound


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

does it vary when rebound fully open or closed?


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

It's much more noticeable with the rebound set at slowest position.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Imo face shim sticks to rebound piston. 

Could you record this sound?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Derg33 said:


> Hi there, I recently stripped and rebuilt my 2016 mattoc experts I also removed a travel spacer to up the forks to 160mm. My 1st few rides were amazing, the forks and the bike felt better than ever however the forks then developed a knock on the rebound stoke which stayed for a couple of small rides then went away of its own accord. It is now back and I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what might be causing it. I know it's difficult without experiencing it yourself but just thought someone might have had the same issue. The knock is every rebound stroke big or small as soon as the fork rebounds. It's like something sticking maybe and can be felt through the bars. I'd like to know what to be looking for when stripping them back down.
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Yes the Expert can do this. The rebound blow-off shim spring gets tangled or out of place. Once put back into place carefully they don't do it again. But if you have a shim to put under the spring to give it a wider shelf, I'd recommend that.

Manitou have stopped making the expert level mattoc damper and recommend people upgrade to the Pro cartridge damper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> I have to admit that mattoc with coil blown me away. Its so sensitive and the damper is pretty open on compression, doesnt spikes at all. Great fork.
> 
> Unfortunately its air spring doesnt fit me stock nor with IRT. Prefered Luftkapped Pike - its better for more freeride oriented riders.
> 
> Clicking could cause rebound face shim. It sticks to piston. If it clicks at top out, mine didnt has washer under air piston. So it extends too far and damper stopped fork movement with knock.


Are you getting full travel?

I also was amazed with my Mattoc Coil. But the spring I had wouldn't give me full travel. 20mm short. Even though it measured out okay. 
I spent the summer riding with IRT and found settings that worked fantastically. But I'll try coil again when I find some spare time (haha).

I was running 40psi main chamber and 60psi IRT. This is a much lower split than Manitou recommend in their charts. I pushed it up to 45/65psi for hard and fast chairlift riding. But found 45/65 gave me more feedback than I liked in trail riding.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I just got a used Mattoc. The previous owner said it had come from Manitou service, but I am not sure when. The seals that are on it now are labeled:
08-29104 Manitou 34
IVXWT000022 (not sure on the first two letters)

I can't find these numbers in any service guides. I am trying to determine if they are the newer seals or older ones. Is there another easy way to tell?

thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I just got a used Mattoc. The previous owner said it had come from Manitou service, but I am not sure when. The seals that are on it now are labeled:
> 08-29104 Manitou 34
> IVXWT000022 (not sure on the first two letters)
> 
> ...


They're the old seals, new code is RXWT000255:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Yes the Expert can do this. The rebound blow-off shim spring gets tangled or out of place. Once put back into place carefully they don't do it again. But if you have a shim to put under the spring to give it a wider shelf, I'd recommend that.
> 
> Manitou have stopped making the expert level mattoc damper and recommend people upgrade to the Pro cartridge damper.


Am I going to cause any problems riding with it like this until I get the chance to sort it? Also will it be obvious when I take it apart?

Thanks


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Where are the pro damper assemblies available from?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Derg33 said:


> Am I going to cause any problems riding with it like this until I get the chance to sort it? Also will it be obvious when I take it apart?
> 
> Thanks


No real damage issues. But it feels terrible. There were photos in this thread showing the spring unseated and/or tangled.



Derg33 said:


> Where are the pro damper assemblies available from?


https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

I'll have a look through the thread for those pics and take the forks apart again this week. I can't afford to upgrade to the Pro damper just yet so hopefully this won't be an ongoing problem cos the forks were feeling awesome before it happened. 

On another subject, am I ok using buzz's slick honey grease on my forks as I can't seem to find slikoleum.

Thanks for all the info and help. 

Regards 

Martyn


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Derg33 said:


> On another subject, am I ok using buzz's slick honey grease on my forks as I can't seem to find slikoleum.


Yep, it's the same stuff just sold with a different sticker through different channels. It's repackaged and sold a lot of different ways.

Slickoleum is the makers brand (Arlo Englund).


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Cool thanks


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Oil Leaking Out from Rebound rod. Have a new 2016 Mattoc 2 pro with only 6 rides and its leaking oil from the rebound knob area. I flip the bike over Friday and loosened the rebound rod to make sure it wasn't cross threaded (all good) and re-torqued it. It still leaked after the ride check. Is there an oil ring that might be missing? Could it be caused by the rebound knob not being installed. The fork was missing the rebound knob set screw (It just arrived from Haynes today). Can I us Teflon tape on the rebound rod threads? Thanks all.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Are you getting full travel?
> 
> I also was amazed with my Mattoc Coil. But the spring I had wouldn't give me full travel. 20mm short. Even though it measured out okay.
> I spent the summer riding with IRT and found settings that worked fantastically. But I'll try coil again when I find some spare time (haha).
> ...


long story. Im 150lbs. Started 40/80 but it gave up its travel while breaking to easily. Compression doesnt help cuz it still bottoms hard or gets harsh. Pumped 50/100, still bottoms. Anyway HBO gives some additional damping, btw taking its sensitivness. Next was to decrease irt volume. Helped a little, but I wasnt happy. Changed seals to SKF and still wanted more sensitive initially and more bottom resistance. Somehow coil is more progressive than air. This make me think its airspring is digressive. Ocasionally full travel is used. Fork was tested in nice Czech bikepark. Almost nothing to complaint except damper sucking in some bath oil. Stock seal let it happen and thicker oring does it. No idea for solution.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jurven240z said:


> Oil Leaking Out from Rebound rod. Have a new 2016 Mattoc 2 pro with only 6 rides and its leaking oil from the rebound knob area. I flip the bike over Friday and loosened the rebound rod to make sure it wasn't cross threaded (all good) and re-torqued it. It still leaked after the ride check. Is there an oil ring that might be missing? Could it be caused by the rebound knob not being installed. The fork was missing the rebound knob set screw (It just arrived from Haynes today). Can I us Teflon tape on the rebound rod threads? Thanks all.


What colour oil? Blue/green is damper. Clear/honey is bath oil. If it's bath oil just check the shaft isn't loose (tighten gently anticlockwise).

There can be oil caught in the threads below the seal which still drips out once the seal is good. You don't need teflon tape on the threads.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> long story. Im 150lbs. Started 40/80 but it gave up its travel while breaking to easily. Compression doesnt help cuz it still bottoms hard or gets harsh. Pumped 50/100, still bottoms. Anyway HBO gives some additional damping, btw taking its sensitivness. Next was to decrease irt volume. Helped a little, but I wasnt happy. Changed seals to SKF and still wanted more sensitive initially and more bottom resistance. Somehow coil is more progressive than air. This make me think its airspring is digressive. Ocasionally full travel is used. Fork was tested in nice Czech bikepark. Almost nothing to complaint except damper sucking in some bath oil. Stock seal let it happen and thicker oring does it. No idea for solution.


I'm running 170mm travel and haven't been able to get more than 150mm from the coil. So back on air for now.

My setup:
Mattoc Pro Boost 27-170mm. Removed factory top-out travel spacer and trimmed 5mm from the top-out to get the full 170mm.
IRT 40 & 60psi.
Swapped both lower seals (air spring and damper) to 10x3 orings to keep bath oil and air out.
Damper has high flow piston and Shockcraft Hot Oil Pink.
HBO fully closed.
LSC fully closed.
HSC fully open.
Rebound 2 clicks from open.
10cc Supergliss each side and be sure to soak the foam rings.

Best air fork I've ever ridden. Did about 30,000m vertical over summer and no issues at all. Damper oil foaming is under control and oil migration into the air spring is too.


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Dougal said:


> What colour oil? Blue/green is damper. Clear/honey is bath oil. If it's bath oil just check the shaft isn't loose (tighten gently anticlockwise).
> 
> There can be oil caught in the threads below the seal which still drips out once the seal is good. You don't need teflon tape on the threads.


Bath Oil . Removed the lowers and found a plastic covered washer at the bottom of the lowers. Mangled with some of the plastic chipped off. It turned out to be the reason for the leak found me an o-ring that fit and reinstalled. Emailed Haynes to see if I can buy the washer/seal but was told not available on its own. Will need to buy the assembly guess the oil ring will do. Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jurven240z said:


> Bath Oil . Removed the lowers and found a plastic covered washer at the bottom of the lowers. Mangled with some of the plastic chipped off. It turned out to be the reason for the leak found me an o-ring that fit and reinstalled. Emailed Haynes to see if I can buy the washer/seal but was told not available on its own. Will need to buy the assembly guess the oil ring will do. Thanks


That's the Trelleborg foot seal. Hayes don't sell them individually (service centres can buy bags of 100+) but Hayes customer service can absolutely send you one or two directly.

[email protected]


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Dougal said:


> That's the Trelleborg foot seal. Hayes don't sell them individually (service centres can buy bags of 100+) but Hayes customer service can absolutely send you one or two directly.
> 
> [email protected]


Techsupport are the ones that replied with the you will need to purchase the assembly.. I will email again see what happens..


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Jurven240z said:


> Techsupport are the ones that replied with the you will need to purchase the assembly.. I will email again see what happens..


I've also had VERY mixed replies from Hayes tech. Less than stellar usually.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jurven240z said:


> Techsupport are the ones that replied with the you will need to purchase the assembly.. I will email again see what happens..


Explain it's a new fork leaking. They may have thought you had a damaged shaft on a 2016 that's had 2 years riding!


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

I bought a Pro 2 Mattoc in February.
It has always had quite a bit of stiction.
It's not super consistent, some times it feels worse than other times.
I hoped it would break in eventually but never did.
I just got it back from Manitou warranty for this reason and it feels the same. The writeup said they replaced the air spring seal and rebound damper seal. They also replaced the uppers as it was already creaking.

I took a video before I sent it in at the end of a short ride:




You can see it jumps a bit when I push on on it.

Any clues as to what is going on?
I'd like to not lose another 2 weeks sending it back.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> I bought a Pro 2 Mattoc in February.
> It has always had quite a bit of stiction.
> It's not super consistent, some times it feels worse than other times.
> I hoped it would break in eventually but never did.
> ...


Do you have the new wiper seals or the old seals?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Do you have the new wiper seals or the old seals?


It came with the new seals. I'm sure of it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> It came with the new seals. I'm sure of it.


Check here:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Check here:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/


I just double checked them right now.
Yep, RXWT000255. New style seals.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> I bought a Pro 2 Mattoc in February.
> It has always had quite a bit of stiction.
> It's not super consistent, some times it feels worse than other times.
> I hoped it would break in eventually but never did.
> ...


It is hard to see what is going on with your fork in that video. What is your weight and what kind of pressures are you using? From the looks of it, you have lots of low speed on. The Mattoc with the new seals and good bath oil (I use fox gold) should be incredibly smooth.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> It is hard to see what is going on with your fork in that video. What is your weight and what kind of pressures are you using? From the looks of it, you have lots of low speed on. The Mattoc with the new seals and good bath oil (I use fox gold) should be incredibly smooth.


Yeah,I basically took that video for myself to make sure I wasn't crazy.
I don't know what I had the low speed set to on that video but today I rode it and it did this (albeit not as extreme) with the low speed all the way open.
Today I had 43psi main/70psi IRT.
And it just came back from Manitou warranty so it has plenty of grease and new bath oil.
It's definitely not "incrediblly smooth" when you push down on it or traveling at low speeds. Once it gets initiated though its pretty smooth.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

ac1000 said:


> I don't know what I had the low speed set to on that video but today I rode it and it did this (albeit not as extreme) with the low speed all the way open.
> Today I had 43psi main/70psi IRT.


What is the sag percentage just for reference? It's not a do all end all number but if you are say only at 12% or 15% then you simply have too much pressure. It doesn't take much pressure change to drastically affect the fork. I just learned this myself.

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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

R_Pierce said:


> What is the sag percentage just for reference? It's not a do all end all number but if you are say only at 12% or 15% then you simply have too much pressure. It doesn't take much pressure change to drastically affect the fork. I just learned this myself.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


25% ish.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

ac1000 said:


> 25% ish.


Hmm. Weird. And it still feels stiff? Is it initial stroke stiffness or ramp up stiffness?

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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*QR axle not flush...found out the hard way, axle is exposed over 3/4"*

Do any Mattoc's have a non-quick release/flush or bolt on style axle?

Just swapped out the Mattoc from my ht, replaced the 36 on fs and spectacularly otbed my shiz.. wide open shoot/rut turn and clipped the qr axle on a rock at least @10mph, and steep... : (


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

R_Pierce said:


> Hmm. Weird. And it still feels stiff? Is it initial stroke stiffness or ramp up stiffness?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


If I push down fast on the fork it will go through the travel pretty well.
If I push down strongly but slowly it will feel notchy. Like pushing a heavy table with rubber feet.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

ac1000 said:


> If I push down fast on the fork it will go through the travel pretty well.
> If I push down strongly but slowly it will feel notchy. Like pushing a heavy table with rubber feet.


Ah!!! Ok. That makes more sense. Yeah, that's odd!

I guess I haven't noticed this on mine.

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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> Yeah,I basically took that video for myself to make sure I wasn't crazy.
> I don't know what I had the low speed set to on that video but today I rode it and it did this (albeit not as extreme) with the low speed all the way open.
> Today I had 43psi main/70psi IRT.
> And it just came back from Manitou warranty so it has plenty of grease and new bath oil.
> It's definitely not "incrediblly smooth" when you push down on it or traveling at low speeds. Once it gets initiated though its pretty smooth.


Actually, I wonder if it is the IRT inner seal that is binding and causing the stiction feeling.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Deerhill said:


> Do any Mattoc's have a non-quick release/flush or bolt on style axle?
> 
> Just swapped out the Mattoc from my ht, replaced the 36 on fs and spectacularly otbed my shiz.. wide open shoot/rut turn and clipped the qr axle on a rock at least @10mph, and steep... : (


Yup, the Hexlock SL. Seen them on the German sites and I am sure Dougal at Shockcraft has them too.

Install instructions here:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Hexlock-SL-Install-guide_EN.pdf


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, I wonder if it is the IRT inner seal that is binding and causing the stiction feeling.


Hmm. I'll try putting the non-IRT cap on and see if that helps.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> Hmm. I'll try putting the non-IRT cap on and see if that helps.


Try that. I am running my fork without the IRT at the moment (inner seal is bad) and I did notice the air piston does not move very freely up and down the shaft. Don't know if that is normal or not. Honestly, I think the Mattoc - especially when run with 140mm of travel, does not need the IRT.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

shiny said:


> Yup, the Hexlock SL. Seen them on the German sites and I am sure Dougal at Shockcraft has them too.
> 
> Install instructions here:
> 
> http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Hexlock-SL-Install-guide_EN.pdf


Now we're talking, thanks!

Noticed an earlier 20mm hexlock (not sl) while searching, anyone know if 20mm x 100 axle is compatible w/ mattoc? 20mm would make wheel swaps so much easier/quicker..20mm-to-15mm hope caps all need to have slop shimmed out every swap



Dougal said:


> Expert stanchions are the same as Pro. But the pro has the rebound cartridge tube which reduces oil volume (and weight).
> Manitou have recently discontinued the Expert damper parts and encourage people to swap over to the Pro damper. The setup now is Comp (ABS+ damper) or Pro (MC^2 cartridge damper)


What parts are needed to swap out original mattoc expert to the pro version, is there a full kit / drop in assembly, or are certain part #'s needed? TIA

Dang..need new kneepads too


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I'm running 170mm travel and haven't been able to get more than 150mm from the coil. So back on air for now.
> 
> My setup:
> Mattoc Pro Boost 27-170mm. Removed factory top-out travel spacer and trimmed 5mm from the top-out to get the full 170mm.
> ...


Im jealous about ur 170mm of stroke. Thats great. Whats your weight? For damper I used silkolene pro rsf 2,5 and got 4 clicks in on rebound. Less is just unstable. For bath in spring side got 20ml of supergliss. Lower stanchion is unsealed so more oil is better  I'd like to try custom compression circuit with lsc closed. Am I right that stock HBO gives some additional compression damping?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Now we're talking, thanks!
> 
> Noticed an earlier 20mm hexlock (not sl) while searching, anyone know if 20mm x 100 axle is compatible w/ mattoc? 20mm would make wheel swaps so much easier/quicker..20mm-to-15mm hope caps all need to have slop shimmed out every swap
> 
> ...


Hexlock SL 100mm wide: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hexlock-sl-100-mm-axle-manitou.html
Hexlock SL 110mm wide: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/hexlock-sl-110-mm-axle-manitou.html

Expert to Pro conversion kit here, it's simply new comp & rebound damper assemblies: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html



nikon255 said:


> Im jealous about ur 170mm of stroke. Thats great. Whats your weight? For damper I used silkolene pro rsf 2,5 and got 4 clicks in on rebound. Less is just unstable. For bath in spring side got 20ml of supergliss. Lower stanchion is unsealed so more oil is better  I'd like to try custom compression circuit with lsc closed. Am I right that stock HBO gives some additional compression damping?


I'm running the Pro Boost 27-160/170mm fork. It's dreamy. 75kg.
The Silkolene Pro 2.5 is good oil. What's your spring rate? I was using 30 lb/in.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> I'm running 170mm travel and haven't been able to get more than 150mm from the coil. So back on air for now.
> 
> My setup:
> Mattoc Pro Boost 27-170mm. Removed factory top-out travel spacer and trimmed 5mm from the top-out to get the full 170mm.
> ...


My spring is 40lbs. Looks like its on stiffer side


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> Try that. I am running my fork without the IRT at the moment (inner seal is bad) and I did notice the air piston does not move very freely up and down the shaft. Don't know if that is normal or not. Honestly, I think the Mattoc - especially when run with 140mm of travel, does not need the IRT.


I removed the IRT and rode today. No change.
I think it's the fork binding. If while standing climbing I slowly put 100% of my weight on the fork it will bind and stay up in the travel without compressing. I weigh about 170lbs (77kg).
My bike has about a 66.5 degree head angle.
It has the same feeling when standing next to the bike and pushing straight down in the direction of the fork.

Could this be a bushing issue or something else?

My friends bikes with Pikes, Lyrics, fox 34s and 36s don't do this.
My other bike doesn't either but it's not a fair comparison as it has 100mm travel 26" fork.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> I removed the IRT and rode today. No change.
> I think it's the fork binding. If while standing climbing I slowly put 100% of my weight on the fork it will bind and stay up in the travel without compressing. I weigh about 170lbs (77kg).
> My bike has about a 66.5 degree head angle.
> It has the same feeling when standing next to the bike and pushing straight down in the direction of the fork.
> ...


So we now know you have a stiction issue. Now the goal is to find out what is causing it.

Can you take the lowers off and try them on each leg individually? See if one is tight?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ac1000 said:


> I removed the IRT and rode today. No change.
> I think it's the fork binding. If while standing climbing I slowly put 100% of my weight on the fork it will bind and stay up in the travel without compressing. I weigh about 170lbs (77kg).
> My bike has about a 66.5 degree head angle.
> It has the same feeling when standing next to the bike and pushing straight down in the direction of the fork.
> ...


It almost has to be something like that. I wonder if you let the air out and do the test, if you feel the same thing. Dougal's test sounds logical as well.


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> So we now know you have a stiction issue. Now the goal is to find out what is causing it.
> 
> Can you take the lowers off and try them on each leg individually? See if one is tight?


I took the wheel off, turned the bike upsidedown and pushed down on each leg individually. When I pushed down on the air spring side the fork moved freely. Pushing down on damper side leg the fork had a bunch of friction.

So the problem appears to be on the damper side of things.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Expert to Pro conversion kit here, it's simply new comp & rebound damper assemblies: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html


Something to think about, thanks again Dougal..

One of the original reasons I went expert when picking up the mattoc was the generous piston size to work with, happen to know which version rebound actually flows more oil w/ free bleed closed?

At first glance, that pro version compression assembly looks exactly the same as expert, what's the diff, could expert be used?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Deerhill said:


> Something to think about, thanks again Dougal..
> 
> One of the original reasons I went expert when picking up the mattoc was the generous piston size to work with, happen to know which version rebound actually flows more oil w/ free bleed closed?
> 
> At first glance, that pro version compression assembly looks exactly the same as expert, what's the diff, could expert be used?


For a cartridge damper like this you don't want a big piston to shaft size ratio. As it's more oil to flow and flowing that oil at high shaft speeds without producing damping quadratics becomes a big problem.

Which is why the Pro with 16mm piston performs better on fast and choppy trails. Add high flow piston modifications to the Pro and it's astounding.


----------



## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Finally got round to ordering the fancy new seals and some Supergliss from Shockcraft, only to find out that a guy I know who's just moved over from NZ had a spare bottle, and I already have the updated seals on my fork. Ah well. 

********

Anyone got setup tips for the Mattoc with IVA? All the chat is about IRT.

Riding the South Downs Way this weekend, and there's nothing in Norfolk remotely like that to help setup the fork. Chalky and flinty as ****, so I would like some plushness. Just re-oiled and greased the lowers and air piston, so I don't feel stiction, but equally it doesn't *seem* like the fork reacts to chatter like I can see observing other bikes. But then the only other fork I've ridden was a Lyrik RC2L coil that had a fair few problems while I owned it, so I don't really have any point of reference.

Any recommendations for ballpark settings and volume spacers would be appreciated. Will weigh about 100kg with bikepacking gear in tow. Steel hardtail, fork at 140mm


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## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Explain it's a new fork leaking. They may have thought you had a damaged shaft on a 2016 that's had 2 years riding!


Support replied with "That looks like it would still work but I will send you a new one." Nice. What you think would you use it?


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

tomvanhalen said:


> Finally got round to ordering the fancy new seals and some Supergliss from Shockcraft, only to find out that a guy I know who's just moved over from NZ had a spare bottle, and I already have the updated seals on my fork. Ah well.
> 
> ********
> 
> ...


@140mm on my 27.5+ fork, I set the volume spacers to the minimum. Don't forget to move the seal up to the top of the four spacers (the stock setup had the seal in the middle, with 2 tokens above and 2 below).


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Jurven240z said:


> Support replied with "That looks like it would still work but I will send you a new one." Nice. What you think would you use it?


So to replace that without them sending you one would be to buy an entire new assembly?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> So to replace that without them sending you one would be to buy an entire new assembly?


Nah, he'd just have to pay the post to get one from me. We have hundreds of those foot seals.


----------



## Jurven240z (Jun 19, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Nah, he'd just have to pay the post to get one from me. We have hundreds of those foot seals.


Yes Vesp.. Thank you Dougal. Been thinking how the seal would have come off (its a tight fit over the threads) and end up in the lowers. Base on the inbeded inner grove think the seal got stuck to the lowers and when they were pulled it came off the rod threads. May be the syringe knocked it off when injecting the oil and stayed inside the lowers.


----------



## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> New seals are flanged and go in nicely. We've got Manitou and RWC seal drivers here. RWC is fantastic for the flangeless, but for flanged seals even a socket will work.


Any suggestion on size socket to use to install the new seals? I will also go to hardware store (in US) to see about pvc pipe like another post suggested.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ashwinearl said:


> Any suggestion on size socket to use to install the new seals? I will also go to hardware store (in US) to see about pvc pipe like another post suggested.


You know, the pipe method may work but I bought this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fork-Wiper...9jB8vI2ObeVYBKw:sc:USPSFirstClass!29466!US!-1

Works very well and makes the whole process easy.

I regards to seals, I also would not recommend using SKF seals. They feel smooth but let in lot more dirt and tend to meld to the lowers making removing them very difficult. The Manitou seals (new ones) are much higher quality and go in and come out really easily.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> The Manitou seals (new ones) are much higher quality and go in and come out really easily.


These are new Manitou seals, but I can't get even pressure all the way around to press them in straight so am having some issues. Thanks for the link


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

ashwinearl said:


> These are new Manitou seals, but I can't get even pressure all the way around to press them in straight so am having some issues. Thanks for the link


They are a pita!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

I too had trouble getting new dust wipers in the lowers of my Magnum. Had to do a little tapping with a mallet. 

Nick at Manitou said they go in tight some times.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> You know, the pipe method may work but I bought this:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fork-Wiper...9jB8vI2ObeVYBKw:sc:USPSFirstClass!29466!US!-1
> 
> Works very well and makes the whole process easy.


I went ahead and ordered this. Thanks for the link again. I hope I haven't already messed them up from my initial attempts to install them with a socket.

It was getting comical, trying to get it seated and it angling one way then another, then popping out.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ashwinearl said:


> These are new Manitou seals, but I can't get even pressure all the way around to press them in straight so am having some issues. Thanks for the link


I used that seal press and my seals went in without much issue. 2 minute job for the most part. A couple things I do are to take the felt rings and soak them in bath oil for days before I change seals (some of these are in bath oil for months). I also keep the fork seals in the freezer for a couple of hours before installing and I remove the garter ring before I install.


----------



## MiWolverine (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi all. I just purchased a Magnum Pro MY16 and have some questions about changing the travel. I don't have the fork yet, but I've read that the process is similar to the Mattoc. How involved is the process of changing the travel? I purchased the 27.5+ 120mm and read that the travel can go up to 140mm. My question is, what all will I need to change the travel? All I need is 130mm (what was spec'd on my bike).

I know I will need the special tools, does anyone have just the cassette and thin-walled socket I could borrow/buy? I already have a 24mm socket. What fluids, etc. will I need? 
I apologize for posting this here. I just want this process to be as quick and painless as possible and would like to gather everything I need beforehand.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MiWolverine said:


> Hi all. I just purchased a Magnum Pro MY16 and have some questions about changing the travel. I don't have the fork yet, but I've read that the process is similar to the Mattoc. How involved is the process of changing the travel? I purchased the 27.5+ 120mm and read that the travel can go up to 140mm. My question is, what all will I need to change the travel? All I need is 130mm (what was spec'd on my bike).
> 
> I know I will need the special tools, does anyone have just the cassette and thin-walled socket I could borrow/buy? I already have a 24mm socket. What fluids, etc. will I need?
> I apologize for posting this here. I just want this process to be as quick and painless as possible and would like to gather everything I need beforehand.


I sell modified sockets individually: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/modified-8-mm-socket-to-fit-manitou-mattoc-magnum-2015-later.html

You will need a slotted cassette tool too. 24mm socket is the one you don't actually need for this job.
Guide is here: https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conte...attoc-Pro-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change.pdf

There are 2x 10mm spacers in the 27+/29" 120mm Mattoc/Magnum stock. Removing each one gets you 10mm more travel.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal, I see you mentioned modifying the top-out bumper to extend the 27.5+ to 150mm travel. Did you simply cut the rubber piece down, or did you modify (or swap) the metal piece directly under the air piston. I dont have one in front of me, so I'm just going by pics and diagrams.

Thanks again for all the great info you've given us all.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> Dougal, I see you mentioned modifying the top-out bumper to extend the 27.5+ to 150mm travel. Did you simply cut the rubber piece down, or did you modify (or swap) the metal piece directly under the air piston. I dont have one in front of me, so I'm just going by pics and diagrams.
> 
> Thanks again for all the great info you've given us all.


I screwed mine up and cut the rubber piece which resulted in a top out clunk. Now I can't seem to find a new top out bumper. Be curious to see what Dougal did.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Dougal, I see you mentioned modifying the top-out bumper to extend the 27.5+ to 150mm travel. Did you simply cut the rubber piece down, or did you modify (or swap) the metal piece directly under the air piston. I dont have one in front of me, so I'm just going by pics and diagrams.
> 
> Thanks again for all the great info you've given us all.


Here's a pic. I've taken out the solid spacer and replaced it with a shorter bumper above the original bumper.

Just a reminder. This isn't an officlal modification. Take full responsibility yourself.









That is the Magnum. The Mattoc version I believe doesn't have that hard plastic spacer and has a longer pedestal instead. I haven't extended one of those yet.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Gotcha. Thanks for the info. Looks like you could probably use regular travel spacers instead, assuming the stock spacer is about 40mm, maybe 3 10mm spacers would do the trick instead of trying to find a shorter bumper? Ill have to see what it looks like when I finally dig in.

Thanks for the info and pic. I do appreciate all the help.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Here's a pic. I've taken out the solid spacer and replaced it with a shorter bumper above the original bumper.
> 
> Just a reminder. This isn't an officlal modification. Take full responsibility yourself.
> 
> ...


Dougal can the stock manitou bumper be sourced?

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Dougal can the stock manitou bumper be sourced?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


It's not readily available individually. I can order almost anything through the engineers and have some spares from (customer) broken shafts.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> It's not readily available individually. I can order almost anything through the engineers and have some spares from (customer) broken shafts.


Sent you a PM when you get some spare time.
Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

I'm about to buy a mattoc and this Is what i understand:

- I see there is a mattoc pro 2, old seals, IVA stock, non Boost a2c 555mm.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...-manitou-mattoc-2-pro-15mm-2017/rp-prod149017

- mattoc pro 3 NON BOOST which should have both IRT and new seals as stock, fender included, a2c as the pro 2
https://www.actionsports.de/en/manitou-mattoc-pro-3-27.5-160mm-2018-matte-black-24170

- mattoc pro 3 Boost, IRT, new seals, fender included and lowered a2c compared to both non Boost versions.
https://www.actionsports.de/manitou-mattoc-pro-3-27.5-160mm-2018-mattschwarz-boost-24171

I am correct? Considering i want IRT, new seals and the higher a2c i should buy the new mattoc pro 3 non boost, i guess. (Second link)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

davideb87 said:


> I'm about to buy a mattoc and this Is what i understand:
> 
> - I see there is a mattoc pro 2, old seals, IVA stock, non Boost a2c 555mm.
> Manitou Mattoc Pro 2 Forks - 15mm 2017 | Chain Reaction Cycles
> ...


Get the Pro Boost. For the same travel there is only a few mm in the A-C length. The Pro Boost is stiffer (bigger brace), fits boost wheels and has it's own mud-guard.

Their photos are wrong. The non-boost do not have a mud-guard.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Get the Pro Boost. For the same travel there is only a few mm in the A-C length. The Pro Boost is stiffer (bigger brace), fits boost wheels and has it's own mud-guard.
> 
> Their photos are wrong. The non-boost do not have a mud-guard.


Thanks, what about IRT and new seals? Are they stock on non Boost pro 3?? Or just in the Boost model?

Or i could buy the pro 3 boost and raise the travel to 170...

I wanted the non-boost for higher a2c and cheaper wheels.

Also what about service? It's the same procedures as the pro2 or a total different fork?


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## jeti (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi guys, 
I have just received a new mattoc expert 2017 from CRC. I immediately found out that I cannot bottom the fork - goes to 14,5 cm (no pressure, all dials to the minimum). I guess the oil levels are the reason. Should I check it myself? Or is it better to send it back?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jeti said:


> Hi guys,
> I have just received a new mattoc expert 2017 from CRC. I immediately found out that I cannot bottom the fork - goes to 14,5 cm (no pressure, all dials to the minimum). I guess the oil levels are the reason. Should I check it myself? Or is it better to send it back?


Are you measuring actual travel? They WILL NOT use all of the stanchion... Measure the travel used.

Or if it's using 14.5cm is the travel set to 150mm? If so that's normal as you are against the bottom out bumper more than likely.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jeti said:


> Hi guys,
> I have just received a new mattoc expert 2017 from CRC. I immediately found out that I cannot bottom the fork - goes to 14,5 cm (no pressure, all dials to the minimum). I guess the oil levels are the reason. Should I check it myself? Or is it better to send it back?


Even with pressure vented the fork builds pressure and vacuum which it has to fight on compression. It takes ~50kg to fully compress an empty fork.

The way to check damper oil level is to remove the lower legs and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft. From the factory the oil levels are pretty damn good. I haven't had to adjust a new fork oil level in years now.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Wouldn't the HBO not allow complete travel under manual compression?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Boom King said:


> Wouldn't the HBO not allow complete travel under manual compression?


HBO is highly speed sensitive. At finger pushing speeds you can feel it but it doesn't stop anything.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Even with pressure vented the fork builds pressure and vacuum which it has to fight on compression. It takes ~50kg to fully compress an empty fork.
> 
> The way to check damper oil level is to remove the lower legs and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft. From the factory the oil levels are pretty damn good. I haven't had to adjust a new fork oil level in years now.


Why does the manual say the exact opposite??? Says the same that mattoc and magnum and we'll back before that has, check damper fluid level with forks fully extended.

Besides way under filling it what is the purpose of doing what your saying?










Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Why does the manual say the exact opposite??? Says the same that mattoc and magnum and we'll back before that has, check damper fluid level with forks fully extended.
> 
> Besides way under filling it what is the purpose of doing what your saying?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You might need to read what I wrote again. You're pushing in the shaft to check the oil level. Not set the oil level.


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## naturaltalent (May 26, 2018)

Anyone have a measurement for the ID of the air spring side of a mattoc pro boost? I've got one arriving in a week and a half and am planning to coil convert it right away


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Dougal said:


> You might need to read what I wrote again. You're pushing in the shaft to check the oil level. Not set the oil level.


Ok sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. You need to clarify better.

In checking an oil level you check by measuring if it is in operating range. Pushing on the damper rod does what exactly?

Why take the lowers off and have to screw with the refill when you pull the damper adjustment knobs and damper and check the level. If it's not correct then you correct it. Taking the lowers off to check the damper fluid level sounds like a gigantic waste of time (and fork oil) from what your explaining.

So what are you trying to check by draining and removing the lowers and pushing on the damper rod???

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ok sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. You need to clarify better.
> 
> In checking an oil level you check by measuring if it is in operating range. Pushing on the damper rod does what exactly?


It's pretty simple. If you can push the rod in all the way by hand then the oil level is not too high.
If the damping dials operate correctly with the rod all the way out then the oil level is not too low.

Which makes the oil level correct. As it is with virtually all new Manitou forks.



RAKC Ind said:


> Why take the lowers off and have to screw with the refill when you pull the damper adjustment knobs and damper and check the level. If it's not correct then you correct it. Taking the lowers off to check the damper fluid level sounds like a gigantic waste of time (and fork oil) from what your explaining.
> 
> So what are you trying to check by draining and removing the lowers and pushing on the damper rod???
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You're doing it wrong.

Removing the lowers is one operation that lets you check damper function, air spring function and bath oil all in one hit. You don't need to drain the lowers to remove them. Horizontal they hold all the bath oil.

Nothing is wasted.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Another way is to put the bike upside down, loosen the bolts at the stanchion bottoms and tap. Plug them with black rubber corks from the hardware store with all the boxes of stuff. Flip the bike and while holding the front end up with the help of someone or something, slide the lowers slowly down and off.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

eb1888 said:


> Another way is to put the bike upside down, loosen the bolts at the stanchion bottoms and tap. Plug them with black rubber corks from the hardware store with all the boxes of stuff. Flip the bike and while holding the front end up with the help of someone or something, slide the lowers slowly down and off.


This can speed things up for me as well, I just bungee cord the front end up in the garage so the legs are level (if doing the whole fork service, just slightly loosen topcaps while front is on the ground first)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eb1888 said:


> Another way is to put the bike upside down, loosen the bolts at the stanchion bottoms and tap. Plug them with black rubber corks from the hardware store with all the boxes of stuff. Flip the bike and while holding the front end up with the help of someone or something, slide the lowers slowly down and off.


You'll want to save the undoing bolts and tapping them for RS and Fox. The Mattoc has both sides which thread clockwise down into the fork. No tapping required.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I could see that maybe on a new fork checking everything over but unless you need to check bath oil in the lowers it still sounds like WAY to much work for a 5 minute job. Can check the other stuff without pulling the lowers.

And I've done the horizontal removal before, unless you have a fixture to hold the thing perfectly level and steady it's just a mess because you still loose bath oil.

But too I'm yet to figure out why they say to have the forks inverted when setting the air spring, hanging off the stand with tire installed (or off my hitch rack on my vehicle) is so much easier and forks always end up with better small bump compliance for me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> I could see that maybe on a new fork checking everything over but unless you need to check bath oil in the lowers it still sounds like WAY to much work for a 5 minute job. Can check the other stuff without pulling the lowers.


Periodic maintenance you're checking two main things. Bath oil and damper foaming. This does both.



RAKC Ind said:


> And I've done the horizontal removal before, unless you have a fixture to hold the thing perfectly level and steady it's just a mess because you still loose bath oil.


You're doing it wrong. We do this daily and don't lose oil.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> I could see that maybe on a new fork checking everything over but unless you need to check bath oil in the lowers it still sounds like WAY to much work for a 5 minute job. Can check the other stuff without pulling the lowers.
> 
> And I've done the horizontal removal before, unless you have a fixture to hold the thing perfectly level and steady it's just a mess because you still loose bath oil.
> 
> ...


Man, I hate to say this but you are disagreeing with one of the best Manitou service guys in the world. He likely knows what he's talking about. 

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Removed


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## mindmap3 (May 28, 2013)

R_Pierce said:


> Man, I hate to say this but you are disagreeing with one of the best Manitou service guys in the world. He likely knows what he's talking about.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


But this is the internet...no place for common sense like that!


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

naturaltalent said:


> Anyone have a measurement for the ID of the air spring side of a mattoc pro boost? I've got one arriving in a week and a half and am planning to coil convert it right away


Its narrow. Upper part of stanchion is tapered, got thicker wall. I guess 29mm diameter. Hard to fit there a spring with 160mm of stroke. Good luck


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## naturaltalent (May 26, 2018)

Thanks man, acs3 spring should fit at 28mm od, aiming for 170mm travel, will post results when done


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Dougal said:


> You'll want to save the undoing bolts and tapping them for RS and Fox. The Mattoc has both sides which thread clockwise down into the fork. No tapping required.


Thanks . I've used the cork method on my Tower Pro, but it's been awhile.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

naturaltalent said:


> Thanks man, acs3 spring should fit at 28mm od, aiming for 170mm travel, will post results when done


stock fox 36 van spring is thicker, isnt it? If I remember correctly its around 29,5 mm OD. If spring is 28 it will be hard to cover it with some plastics to prevent hard wearing of inside stanchion.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> stock fox 36 van spring is thicker, isnt it? If I remember correctly its around 29,5 mm OD. If spring is 28 it will be hard to cover it with some plastics to prevent hard wearing of inside stanchion.


Yup, the 36 ones are hair under 30mm

The 32's are 26mm x 11" and they have those little inserts ; )


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## MiWolverine (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi all. I purchased a Magnum Pro 27.5+ 120mm recently. I increased travel to 130mm by removing a spacer from the air shaft. After doing so and reassembling, the A2C is only 521mm. Does this seem right? According to Manitou's website, they spec the A2C at 527mm for the 120mm version.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

MiWolverine said:


> Hi all. I purchased a Magnum Pro 27.5+ 120mm recently. I increased travel to 130mm by removing a spacer from the air shaft. After doing so and reassembling, the A2C is only 521mm. Does this seem right? According to Manitou's website, they spec the A2C at 527mm for the 120mm version.


I don't recall it and I don't have my Magnum here with me, if no one post the A2C value before I measure mine I will post it.
But meanwhile, did you make sure the fork was fully extended while removing the shock pump, you must make sure you keep the fork fully extended while removing the shock pump, this is also valid to the Mattoc.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Yes the Expert can do this. The rebound blow-off shim spring gets tangled or out of place. Once put back into place carefully they don't do it again. But if you have a shim to put under the spring to give it a wider shelf, I'd recommend that.
> 
> Manitou have stopped making the expert level mattoc damper and recommend people upgrade to the Pro cartridge damper.


Hi, just wondering where the blow off shim is situated and what work is involved in sorting it? Does the fork need to be completely dismantled again?

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

Regards

Martyn


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## MiWolverine (Jun 15, 2009)

Aglo said:


> I don't recall it and I don't have my Magnum here with me, if no one post the A2C value before I measure mine I will post it.
> But meanwhile, did you make sure the fork was fully extended while removing the shock pump, you must make sure you keep the fork fully extended while removing the shock pump, this is also valid to the Mattoc.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


I pumped the air shaft to 60psi as the service guide suggests. It seemed fully extended. I am going to remove the last spacer and see if that gets me in the ballpark of my last fork, which was 541mm a2c @ 130mm travel.

Edit: I think I have it sorted now. I took out all of the spacers to achieve 140mm travel and a2c is now 546mm. I have no idea what happened when I removed the 1 spacer as I didn't do anything different the second time around.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Just got back from a bikepacking trip where i turned the ABS+ compression damping on my ~3 month old Mattoc Comp 27.5+/29 fork to max for a ton of fire road riding. It isn't a full lockout, and at some point along the way I noticed that when i would compress the fork, i could hear and feel a clicking sound at the start of each rebound stroke.

Decreasing the compression damping seems to make the sound go away. I'm assuming my first move is to pull the ABS+ damper and inspect it, but I figured I would check here first to see if anyone has had a similar issue. Any other things i should check?


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

@Dougal is the high flow piston something new, and can I get from manitou for my mattoc pro 2?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> @Dougal is the high flow piston something new, and can I get from manitou for my mattoc pro 2?


Nope it's a Shockcraft only thing. I have a batch of pistons coming so will be able to sell them outright and ready to install.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Nope it's a Shockcraft only thing. I have a batch of pistons coming so will be able to sell them outright and ready to install.


Right on!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MiWolverine said:


> I pumped the air shaft to 60psi as the service guide suggests. It seemed fully extended. I am going to remove the last spacer and see if that gets me in the ballpark of my last fork, which was 541mm a2c @ 130mm travel.
> 
> Edit: I think I have it sorted now. I took out all of the spacers to achieve 140mm travel and a2c is now 546mm. I have no idea what happened when I removed the 1 spacer as I didn't do anything different the second time around.


Pressure doesn't change the extension much as the only area it works on is the 10mm air-shaft.
That's why you need to pull up on the lowers to fully extend as you remove the pump.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Derg33 said:


> Hi, just wondering where the blow off shim is situated and what work is involved in sorting it? Does the fork need to be completely dismantled again?
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Blowoff shim is on the underside of the rebound piston (that's the lower one attached to the damper shaft).

Yes it's legs off and shaft out. It's less messy to take the comp damper out the top and drain the oil from there first. So yeah it's most of the fork apart.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

so what changes this high flow piston? are you gonna sell it as set with shims? Exhaustiv description is welcome


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Blowoff shim is on the underside of the rebound piston (that's the lower one attached to the damper shaft).
> 
> Yes it's legs off and shaft out. It's less messy to take the comp damper out the top and drain the oil from there first. So yeah it's most of the fork apart.


Cool thanks again.


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## Energetik (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi guys. Sorry of this was answered earlier. I'm at work and can't read 36 pages of great info.

I thought I read somewhere that the 1st gen (super cheap atm) mattoc lowers are 27.5 compatible? Just the offset is different for 26?

I have a 2005 cannondale prophet that can be converted to 27.5. I don't have the cashola to put out for a fork plus wheels etc all at once. Would it work to use this for both wheel sizes without any major affects from the difference in offset? 

OR could I get away with a 27.5 specific fork and offset on a 26 inch wheel? 

Sorry I have to do this in stages. Thanks in advance.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

xeren said:


> Just got back from a bikepacking trip where i turned the ABS+ compression damping on my ~3 month old Mattoc Comp 27.5+/29 fork to max for a ton of fire road riding. It isn't a full lockout, and at some point along the way I noticed that when i would compress the fork, i could hear and feel a clicking sound at the start of each rebound stroke.
> 
> Decreasing the compression damping seems to make the sound go away. I'm assuming my first move is to pull the ABS+ damper and inspect it, but I figured I would check here first to see if anyone has had a similar issue. Any other things i should check?


I'm having the same clicking/clinking sound in my Magnum Comp. Nick at Manitou emailed the following.

Hopefully Dougal can provide some additional insight.

"I would guess that it is due to a migration of the grease on the negative coil spring to the lowers. To fix this you would need to remove the lowers, drain them, remove the air spring to re-grease the coil, and reinstall both items. I cannot guarantee this will take away the noise but it can be a common cause."


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

amadkins said:


> I'm having the same clicking/clinking sound in my Magnum Comp. Nick at Manitou emailed the following.
> 
> Hopefully Dougal can provide some additional insight.
> 
> "I would guess that it is due to a migration of the grease on the negative coil spring to the lowers. To fix this you would need to remove the lowers, drain them, remove the air spring to re-grease the coil, and reinstall both items. I cannot guarantee this will take away the noise but it can be a common cause."


hmm, I thought the new mattoc comp came with the "expert air" spring, which has an air negative spring?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Energetik said:


> Hi guys. Sorry of this was answered earlier. I'm at work and can't read 36 pages of great info.
> 
> I thought I read somewhere that the 1st gen (super cheap atm) mattoc lowers are 27.5 compatible? Just the offset is different for 26?
> 
> ...


The first generation was adaptable to 27.5" wheels, but you had to change something internally. I think it was the top of the rebound shaft and how it interacted with the HBO.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

My mattoc pro (new eBay cheapo) is leaking from the top cap damper adjustment knobs. Is this a common issue ? 

I haven't taken apart the damper side. Just the air side to install the irt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> so what changes this high flow piston? are you gonna sell it as set with shims? Exhaustiv description is welcome


It's simply a modified piston with more flow area. So you get less quadratic pressure building (squares with compression speed) across the piston. So it removes harshness on sharp compressions (i.e. rough ground at speed) and lets you run more compression damping without that same harshness.

No shim changes needed unless you're super light as the MC^2 has plenty of adjustment. The piston is a straight bolt-in.



amadkins said:


> I'm having the same clicking/clinking sound in my Magnum Comp. Nick at Manitou emailed the following.
> 
> Hopefully Dougal can provide some additional insight.
> 
> "I would guess that it is due to a migration of the grease on the negative coil spring to the lowers. To fix this you would need to remove the lowers, drain them, remove the air spring to re-grease the coil, and reinstall both items. I cannot guarantee this will take away the noise but it can be a common cause."


Magnum Comp was TS Air with coil negative. Drop the air-pressure, compress the fork and air it up again to see if it reseats and doesn't click. Otherwise you'll want to pull the legs off and air side compression rod out to investigate.



Vespasianus said:


> The first generation was adaptable to 27.5" wheels, but you had to change something internally. I think it was the top of the rebound shaft and how it interacted with the HBO.


The non-boost Mattoc legs are all the same from day 1. All fit 27" wheels. The 27" spec has a 10mm longer HBO cone (on the rebound damper shaft) and runs a 10mm spacer on the bottom of the air-side shaft.

The only differences between a 26 and 27" Mattoc are those two above and the 26" had less crown offset. 
The 26" crown offset has become the new offset on the 170mm Boost Mattoc.



mobilenemo said:


> My mattoc pro (new eBay cheapo) is leaking from the top cap damper adjustment knobs. Is this a common issue ?
> 
> I haven't taken apart the damper side. Just the air side to install the irt.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had one leaking from there 2-3 years ago. I found a piece of debris in a seal deep inside the compression assembly. Stripping and rebuilding the MC^2 compression assembly isn't a option for most people. Contact the seller for a new assembly.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Expert stanchions are the same as Pro. But the pro has the rebound cartridge tube which reduces oil volume (and weight).
> the black foam on the compression assembly is for noise and foam reduction. It raises the oil level higher and uses the squishing foam to take up the volume of the shaft entering and leaving. When the oil levels are correct it takes minimal force to fully compress the shaft.
> 
> Manitou have recently discontinued the Expert damper parts and encourage people to swap over to the Pro damper. The setup now is Comp (ABS+ damper) or Pro (MC^2 cartridge damper)


Do you mean that one can convert an expert to a pro by buying the appropriate pro parts?

EDIT: nevermind found your post here: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-mattoc-899836-36.html#post13666813. Should've gone through this thread first before placing the order.

I just bought a discounted spare damper assembly for the expert from chainreaction, so I can play around with the shims even easier still without running the risk of having the bike unridable at the wrong time.

Done with the house rebuilt, so got more time again to mess around with stuff.

EDIT2: I understand correctly that the high flow piston is 16mm only and thus only for the Pro damper?

I just made this stack for the spare damper that will go to the misses Mattoc next week:

10x12x0.2
10x21x0.15

8x12x0.1
8x12x0.1
8x17x0.1
8x14x0.1

Not sure if it will get the damping light enough, but will see how it goes.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Blowoff shim is on the underside of the rebound piston (that's the lower one attached to the damper shaft).
> 
> Yes it's legs off and shaft out. It's less messy to take the comp damper out the top and drain the oil from there first. So yeah it's most of the fork apart.


Got this sorted today, the spring had indeed moved out of place as was suggested by those who replied. I have fitted a washer to prevent it from happening again.

Thanks for the advice, glad I found this forum and in particular this thread as it has answered all the questions I've had since owning my manitou forks.

Thanks again

Regards

Martyn


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

If anyone has been playing "which way does this turn - snap!) on their Mattoc we've got replacement shaft feet now:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-expert-comp-manitou.html
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-pro-manitou.html
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-air-shaft-dorado-air-manitou.html

They're a reasonably involved thing to swap. Needing shaft clamps etc and we'd prefer to do this swap for customers in our workshop. They can save a big hassle finding a whole new shaft.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Hi all,
I have a Mattoc Pro set to 140mm travel. It has IRT and I just put in the new seals. 

140lbs on a 140mm/140mm trail bike. The terrain is more slow speed, grinding pedaling, short ups, downs, primitive singletrack. Lots of small 1"-3" roots I'd like to soak up but not a lot of big stuff. As always, I want some pedal platform, but want to be able to soak up trail chatter and roots.

Can I get some recommendations for set up to start with. Right now I am at:
140mm travel
IRT: 70
Main: 50
HSC +1
LSC +2
HBO 0
Rebound +4

I am going to try taking the IRT out and using just plain top cap too, as well as lower main air pressure combined with more LSC, and try smaller/bigger delta in main and IRT values.

Rebound is also something I struggle with. To light and it feels pogo-y, I increase it to settle it down, but am never sure how much is too much.

Is there a tuning flowchart or methodology to follow? Like start here, ride (roots, rocks, flat...) if this (____) then do (this -____). 


Even with just guessing at some settings, this fork is so much better than the Fox Performance with GRIP damper it isn't even funny.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ashwinearl said:


> Hi all,
> I have a Mattoc Pro set to 140mm travel. It has IRT and I just put in the new seals.
> 
> 140lbs on a 140mm/140mm trail bike. The terrain is more slow speed, grinding pedaling, short ups, downs, primitive singletrack. Lots of small 1"-3" roots I'd like to soak up but not a lot of big stuff. As always, I want some pedal platform, but want to be able to soak up trail chatter and roots.
> ...


I am also running the Mattoc at 140. I am ~200 lbs and use roughly 90lbs and am not using IRT at the moment. At 140, I think it works well enough without. I use 3 clicks of LSC, 2 clicks of HSC and 2 clicks of HBO. My rebound is set at 4 clicks in.

How much do you weigh? I found with the IRT, I would run the minimum LSC, HSC and HBO.

I would also highly recommend using the new Manitou seals and fox gold suspension fluid (at temps above 70).

edit. I did not see that you are 140 lbs. Yes, dougal is right, your pressure is high for your weight. You could drop to something like 30 PSI main and 45-60 IRT with rebound 1-2 clicks from fully open.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> I am also running the Mattoc at 140. I am ~200 lbs and use roughly 90lbs and am not using IRT at the moment. At 140, I think it works well enough without. I use 3 clicks of LSC, 2 clicks of HSC and 2 clicks of HBO. My rebound is set at 4 clicks in.
> 
> How much do you weigh? I found with the IRT, I would run the minimum LSC, HSC and HBO.
> 
> I would also highly recommend using the new Manitou seals and fox gold suspension fluid (at temps above 70).


You are going to **** at what I'm running... I'm 245 lbs currently (and dropping) with my Mattoc set at 150mm. I'm running 50psi in the main chamber and 70psi in the IRT. LSC and HSC all the way open (although I'll sometimes run one click of LSC, just depends on the trail). HBO all the way open. Two clicks of rebound.

That gets me roughly 30% sag (which is what I run on the coil shock as well) which allows for a nice plush small bump yet still ramps up nice mid stroke. I never bottom the fork out.

This is with the new seals, Maxima PLUSH fluid in the damper, fox gold in the lowers.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Remember, it's also going to depend on how you ride. Your riding position, etc. I run a higher rise (2" rise) handle bar which sets me more centered on the bike so I'm not as far over the nose as someone with a lower rise bar.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Hi all,
> I have a Mattoc Pro set to 140mm travel. It has IRT and I just put in the new seals.
> 
> 140lbs on a 140mm/140mm trail bike. The terrain is more slow speed, grinding pedaling, short ups, downs, primitive singletrack. Lots of small 1"-3" roots I'd like to soak up but not a lot of big stuff. As always, I want some pedal platform, but want to be able to soak up trail chatter and roots.
> ...


Your air pressures are too high which is making the fork buck. That's why you're running too much rebound damping.

I run 40/60psi IRT and I'm 20lb heavier. Start there and consider going lower. Set air pressure by frequency: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup

No need to remove IRT, just vent the top chamber to 0 if you want to feel how it works without. I use 1.5x pressure multiplier which works well with IRT. Riders taking bigger hits can run closer to 2x multiplier.

Run HSC open and use LSC. Open rebound to about 2 clicks from open. Don't be afraid to use full travel, use HBO to stop hard bottom-out.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

R_Pierce said:


> You are going to **** at what I'm running... I'm 245 lbs currently (and dropping) with my Mattoc set at 150mm. I'm running 50psi in the main chamber and 70psi in the IRT. LSC and HSC all the way open (although I'll sometimes run one click of LSC, just depends on the trail). HBO all the way open. Two clicks of rebound.
> 
> That gets me roughly 30% sag (which is what I run on the coil shock as well) which allows for a nice plush small bump yet still ramps up nice mid stroke. I never bottom the fork out.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with that. I am running a crazy steep head only on my bike actually - almost 71 degrees and 75 seat. For the trails, I ride most of the time - which are 100% flat, this gives me a nice fast ride. I think this is why I can get away with the amount of air in the front.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I run 40/60psi IRT and I'm 20lb heavier.


I had a question about comparing other people's settings. Does one have to also know what travel they are at to make meaningful comparison. I am set at 140mm travel. Can I compare the air pressure settings of someone similar weight if they are at 160mm?

In looking at tables in some Manitou docs, like the IRT documentation, they give a weight range and then suggested settings for main sprint/IRT for 140mm, 150mm, 160mm, 170mm. I notice that the higher the travel the lower the pressure for the same body weight range.

I've been surveying this thread and writing other rider's settings just for reference points. I wasn't sure if I needed to make adjustments for someone using the fork at 160mm vs 140mm.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Yes, fork travel is important. 
At the event of bottom out, all fork travels will have the same volume in positive chamber. But if your fork has more travel, initial volume was bigger, so they compress bigger volume of air to the same volume, meening if you start with the same presure for all trevel forks, longer trevel fork will have higher presure at the bottom out - higher bottom out force.

Because we want same bottom out force for different travels, we have to have lower presure with higher travel.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Your air pressures are too high which is making the fork buck. That's why you're running too much rebound damping.
> 
> I run 40/60psi IRT and I'm 20lb heavier. Start there and consider going lower. Set air pressure by frequency: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup
> 
> ...


So I messed around with setting today. I kept reducing main air/IRT until 2 click of rebound felt controlled. I ended up around
25psi Main
45 IRT
LSC+3 for pedaling platform
HSC 0
HBO 0

It felt pretty good soaking up any roots. I am a little scared of the front diving if really driving the front into corners. It is hard to wrap my head around such a low pressure. It might be on the low side and may up it a little.

I didn't specify this earlier. I am using Motorex 2.5 Wt oil in the damper and Fox Gold 7-10cc semi bath, new seals.

Is this oil perhaps too thin for me? (approx. 140lbs, 140mm setting, with a 140mm rear travel)I used it in my Marvel which had less rebound range with 5 Wt oil. But this Mattoc has so much more useable range.

The point you made about too much air pressure causing the fork to 'buck' requiring more rebound damping was interesting. I think I have had that problem for awhile.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> So I messed around with setting today. I kept reducing main air/IRT until 2 click of rebound felt controlled. I ended up around
> 25psi Main
> 45 IRT
> LSC+3 for pedaling platform
> ...


Those are roughly the pressures Mrs Dougal runs. They are low, but only you'll know if they're too low. It depends on bike geometry and a lot of other factors. LSC and IRT are good for controlling fork dive. The main thing with fork dive is to stop the rear shock accentuating it with rapid rebound from sag.

Once you've got the pressures right so the bike compresses and extends level without bucking or wallowing. You're good. There is a usable range to play with in that windown.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> So I messed around with setting today. I kept reducing main air/IRT until 2 click of rebound felt controlled. I ended up around
> 25psi Main
> 45 IRT
> LSC+3 for pedaling platform
> ...


Interesting, thanks for sharing your settings.
I'm 145lb (without gear) on a 150mm Mattoc currently running 30psi non-IRT, and not using full travel, but it's still a bit harsh at speed (running 1 click rebound and 0 LSC) so I might re-install the IRT and try similar settings to yours. I also thought they'd be too low but with min rebound hopefully I can get it to feel good over roots also.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Gogle = 2007coil*

Any non air spring plans (front or rear) in the works from Manitou?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Do you have the new seals? Fox gold semi bath?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Set air pressure by frequency: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup


Is there a video of someone going through this tuning by frequency? It would be really helpful to see someone doing it and showing bad setups like with it not bouncing level, a bounce that is too fast, one that is too slow...


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

I have read most of the thread already, but I still have some questions 

I am quite interested in the Mattoc 3 pro Boost. First question that I have is do all mattocs 3 pro now come with IRT? I think I saw that in manitou promo material somewhere, but I was not able to find a confirmation. Also, mattoc pro 3 has black stanchions, correct? What is actually different between pro 2 and pro 3? Pro 3 is 2018 model only, or was 2017 also pro 3?

I am thinking of replacing Sektor RL boost 2017 150mm on my trance and I want to know, what would be the biggest benefits for me? Stiffness wise I don't mind sektor (I am 77kg geared up), but I don't like air spring in it much. I am hoping that IRT would let me tune it to my preferences. I haven't actually ridden better fork than the sector, so I don't know what to expect 


Other than that, how often do you guys service your mattocs? If memory serves me right, mattoc has slightly looser intervals, so no 50h lower leg service?

How is the reliability for you? Do you have any reoccurring problems or they are quite sparse?

I am really falling for mattoc, but I want to make sure I make a correct desition 

Thank you


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Do you have the new seals? Fox gold semi bath?


If you're asking me (next time use quotes?) yes I have the new seals but not Fox Gold, it's >$40cdn around here! I'm currently using WPL 20wt in the lowers.

Tuning by frequency - I've re-read Dougal's article several times and though he makes it sound simple, I don't find the "right" air pressure that obvious, so I'd also like to see a video.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> If you're asking me (next time use quotes?) yes I have the new seals but not Fox Gold, it's >$40cdn around here! I'm currently using WPL 20wt in the lowers.
> 
> Tuning by frequency - I've re-read Dougal's article several times and though he makes it sound simple, I don't find the "right" air pressure that obvious, so I'd also like to see a video.


Sorry video is one thing I really suck at.

If you can ride with the rebound damping right open. The pressure is not too high. If you can ride without it wallowing and being sluggish then the pressure is not too low.

In between those two is your tuning window. When it feels right in that window, it is. The harder and faster you ride the tighter that window gets.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I use redline 5w40 in my Mattoc bath oil. Easy to find at autoparts stores, won't get thick below 40F like fox gold, relatively cheap.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Looking for a 29" Mattoc pro, 140mm travel, preferably with a 551 mm A2C, boost 110. Looking at Manitou's website it looks like I will need to get the 29+ version? So, more specifically I need a 29+ Mattoc 120 - then I extend the travel to 140? Are these forks running well at 140mm?

Also, what is the main difference between the Mattoc Pro and the Markhor?

Thanks for your help!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aaronka970 said:


> Looking for a 29" Mattoc pro, 140mm travel, preferably with a 551 mm A2C, boost 110. Looking at Manitou's website it looks like I will need to get the 29+ version? So, more specifically I need a 29+ Mattoc 120 - then I extend the travel to 140? Are these forks running well at 140mm?
> 
> Also, what is the main difference between the Mattoc Pro and the Markhor?
> 
> Thanks for your help!


You want the 27+/29" version. Yes 120mm and extend to 140mm by removing internal spacers.

Markhor is 30mm stanchions.
Machete is 32mm stanchions.
Mattoc/Mastodon/Magnum is 34mm.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Just curious, but does anyone have any numbers on the air chamber total volume for the mattoc or magnum? And also for the IRT displacement? I wanted to do some calculations to see where Im sitting at 25% sag in terms of main chamber psi. It would help me visualize how to tune for IRT.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

*Bushing service*

After 3 years my Mattoc 1 has a clicking bushing in the right leg so it's probably time to replace it. Unfortunately none of the regular service channels out here are yet responding to enquiries. Is this something that can be done at home with a bit of creative tool manufacturing?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eric said:


> After 3 years my Mattoc 1 has a clicking bushing in the right leg so it's probably time to replace it. Unfortunately none of the regular service channels out here are yet responding to enquiries. Is this something that can be done at home with a bit of creative tool manufacturing?


Bushings almost never need replaced. Just reseated and resized.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Heres a fun though. Would the 34mm ramp control fit a mattoc?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

twodogsfighting said:


> Heres a fun though. Would the 34mm ramp control fit a mattoc?


Why would it be a fun thought? Manitou already has the IRT, which is superior in my opinion. The MRP ramp control is a fixed volume and only has an adjustable orifice, while the IRT is a floating air piston, splitting the positive air chamber into two parts where you can set pressure on both halves. While I have not yet ridden the MRP ramp control, it seems like something that could be accomplished using damping/HSC.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Bushings almost never need replaced. Just reseated and resized.


This would be done by seating the bushing ever so slightly further down in the lowers? I've done this on old Rock Shox forks with good results.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

GuitsBoy said:


> Why would it be a fun thought? Manitou already has the IRT, which is superior in my opinion. The MRP ramp control is a fixed volume and only has an adjustable orifice, while the IRT is a floating air piston, splitting the positive air chamber into two parts where you can set pressure on both halves. While I have not yet ridden the MRP ramp control, it seems like something that could be accomplished using damping/HSC.


So, I rode a Mattoc for years and added IRT when it came out. Great fork. Only reason I moved on is that last year I bought a new frame with boost but I kept using my Mattoc and wheels with a spacer kit on the rear. A few weeks ago I bought a boost wheelset and a boost fork - and I decided to try a MRP Ribbon. (The Mattoc is going back to my old frame, and my dad is going to ride it.)

I only have a handful of rides on the Ribbon, compared to years (and hundreds of hours) on the Mattoc. But I researched it a lot before deciding to try the Ribbon instead of a Mattoc Pro 3 Boost.

I am just a rider who wrenches on things; I don't do this as a job like Dougal or Noah (from MRP). So if I say something an expert contradicts, my apologies in advance.

Ramp Control is as you stated. Most current MRP air forks including the Ribbon also have independent positive and negative air spring chambers and valves. The combination of having both of those give you pretty good control of the air spring in terms of small bump compliance, standing platform (or lack thereof), travel usage, and resistance to bottom-out.

The Mattoc also has hydraulic bottom-out. You could crank up HBO and not really feel it, but if you click in a lot of Ramp Control you'll notice it affecting the final 1/3 of travel. To me, Ramp Control is like a token in a Fox or Rockshox air fork, or IVA for Manitou. The value of Ramp Control is that you can twist the knob a lot faster and easier than opening the top cap to change tokens.

My initial feeling is that IRT works better than Ramp Control and MRP's independent spring chambers in one key area: mid-stroke support. You can get great small bump compliance with both systems. You can dial in the right amount of bottom-out resistance with both. But if you make the MRP fork too soft off the top it's going to dive when you brake hard, and bob when you climb standing. My Mattoc used to do that too... but when I installed IRT that problem went away.

Also, messing with separate positive and negative chambers can be a nuisance. During initial setup - or changing it for a different rider - you have to drain negative, adjust positive, adjust negative.

The Ribbon does have vents on the lower legs which is useful if you ride somewhere with large elevation changes. It's much better than the zip-tie through the seal trick. I picked it because I felt like the features were comparable, and I like their Colorado-based factory support and low cost of factory maintenance. We have a relatively long winter in Kansas and it will be cheap, fast and easy for me to send my fork one state to the west in the offseason without missing it.

It's way too early to say what I think about the Ribbon compared to the Mattoc in more detail than that. But I did notice the mid-stroke support right away. I'm going to Colorado in a month and riding a lot up to then so I'll report back by the first of August with some more thoughts.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ColinL said:


> So, I rode a Mattoc for years and added IRT when it came out. Great fork. Only reason I moved on is that last year I bought a new frame with boost but I kept using my Mattoc and wheels with a spacer kit on the rear. A few weeks ago I bought a boost wheelset and a boost fork - and I decided to try a MRP Ribbon. (The Mattoc is going back to my old frame, and my dad is going to ride it.)
> 
> I only have a handful of rides on the Ribbon, compared to years (and hundreds of hours) on the Mattoc. But I researched it a lot before deciding to try the Ribbon instead of a Mattoc Pro 3 Boost.
> 
> ...


Nice write up. I test rode a 29" version of the MRP stage and was really impressed. You hit the nail on the head with the IRT. The mid-stroke support is something you notice when you come off that system.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

My brand new mattoc pro2 drive side bushing was clicking. Got another one and its ok.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

CS645 said:


> Do you mean that one can convert an expert to a pro by buying the appropriate pro parts?
> 
> EDIT: nevermind found your post here: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-mattoc-899836-36.html#post13666813. Should've gone through this thread first before placing the order.
> 
> ...


First report with the above shimstack (65kg rideweight):

She can now ride with LSC 2 clicks closed easily where previously even on click of LSC would lead to instant harshness. No excessive diving. So far so good. I don't know if the 14x0.1 shim under the 17x0.1 makes the latter completely ineffective or that it gives sort of a shim/orifice hybrid effect (was hoping for the latter). Vacation in the Alps in a few weeks will be a good test.

Didn't remove the final bit of harshness on rough surfaces but probably that highflow piston could solve that.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

I did something bad:

I owned the Mattoc PRO for about 2 years. Performed lots of the User service. But the other day i added air when the fork was compressed. Now there seems to be a vacuum on the air assembly, pulling it in. I've pulled the lowers off to drain last night. So to fix this do i just need to remove the entire air side and re-install ? I have an IRT also.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

If I understand your problem correctly, you should just connect the pump and extend the fork.
When the pump is connected positive and negative chambers are connnected. If you pump air into the fork, while fork is compressed, and then disconnect the pump, you kind of lowered the fork, made positive chamber smaller and enlarged negative chamber.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

I've tried that but doesn't that fly in the face of what Manitou says to pressurize the fork when it is extended? Adding air to extend it so i can add more air doesn't make sense. I feel like to follow the Manitou guidelines, i should be able to push the fork to full extension with minimal hand force and then add the correct PSI, but i can't do that.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Cant Climb said:


> I've tried that but doesn't that fly in the face of what Manitou says to pressurize the fork when it is extended? Adding air to extend it so i can add more air doesn't make sense. I feel like to follow the Manitou guidelines, i should be able to push the fork to full extension with minimal hand force and then add the correct PSI, but i can't do that.


No, what s-master says is correct. Manitou says to pressurize when the fork is fully extended but you can also extend the legs when the pump is attached to make sure it is fully extended. You can also depress the valve and dump out all the air, attach a pump, make sure all air is out, pull the legs apart and add back your air. Both ways work.


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Ohhh, thanks. It's coming back to me now. I understand. Just connect the pump and extend. That information was in my head somewhere but had forgotten.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I had a question about the negative chamber. Is that set at a fixed pressure? Does the user have any control over it?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

No. It automatically equalizes with the positive. (or primary positive if you have irt installed.)

The only way you can mess it up is if you fill the positive while there is weight on the bars. That's what likely caused the issue mentioned a few posts back.


ashwinearl said:


> I had a question about the negative chamber. Is that set at a fixed pressure? Does the user have any control over it?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

ColinL said:


> No. It automatically equalizes with the positive. (or primary positive if you have irt installed.)
> 
> The only way you can mess it up is if you fill the positive while there is weight on the bars. That's what likely caused the issue mentioned a few posts back.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


That, and if the OP has IRT he can also play a little with Boyle's law


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Looking at getting the 27.5 Mattoc Pro 2 Non-Boost. I currently have a 20mm thru-axle, but it looks like the fork is a 15mm thru axle. Two questions, how do I do this conversion while keeping my current wheel, and why do they do 15 and not 20mm... isn't that weaker?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DHbiker said:


> Looking at getting the 27.5 Mattoc Pro 2 Non-Boost. I currently have a 20mm thru-axle, but it looks like the fork is a 15mm thru axle. Two questions, how do I do this conversion while keeping my current wheel, and why do they do 15 and not 20mm... isn't that weaker?


To keep your current wheel you need 15mm end-caps for it. Remove the 20mm ones and install the 15's. They're 5mm shorter each side.

I don't like 15mm either, 20mm was better in every way and was only a few grams heavier. But that's the way it has all gone.


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Just got my first two rides in on my 27.5 Non-boost Mattoc Pro 2, bought from CRC. It has the new seals which I was surprised, because I had read that only the Pro 3 came with the new seals (checked with the picture of the part number on Dougals instagram and part number matches). I'm running them 160mm on a Transition Bandit, will probably lower them to 150mm.

I'm coming from a 2015 Rockshox Revelation RCT3 Dual Position at 140mm (with 120mm optional). I could never find a pressure I liked, too low and it would bottom out, but any pressure that wouldn't bottom out would be very harsh. The middle setting on high speed compression was basically unbearable other than fire roads or hard pack.

I'm 185 (with camelbak full) and my initial settings were 45 psi in the main chamber and 80 in the IRT. 7 clicks rebound, 2 clicks HS, 1 click LS, no HBO yet. The fork felt extremely comfortable, what I noticed most was on brake bumps, it's controlled and maintains grip throughout the bumps. Brake dive was a little more than I'm used to, but it didn't negatively impact the ride. Hitting roots at speed is barely noticeable. With how plush it felt, I was surprised it only used around 130mm of travel. I can't wait to start playing with all the settings and really dial it in. I'm super happy with my purchase so far!

I realized after I took this picture that I routed the brake cable under the crown, it's now above. The cable wasn't long enough to run around the underside of the headtube like Manitou suggests.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Dougal said:


> To keep your current wheel you need 15mm end-caps for it. Remove the 20mm ones and install the 15's. They're 5mm shorter each side.
> 
> I don't like 15mm either, 20mm was better in every way and was only a few grams heavier. But that's the way it has all gone.


Okay cool thanks. Is there a universal one that fits?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

DHbiker said:


> Okay cool thanks. Is there a universal one that fits?


They're all kind of the same but the lengths of the caps vary as the bearing width varies.
If you don't want to go back to 20mm you can get someone with a lathe to buzz 5mm off each cap and make up a 15x20mm sleeve that goes through.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

acedeuce802 said:


> Just got my first two rides in on my 27.5 Non-boost Mattoc Pro 2, bought from CRC. It has the new seals which I was surprised, because I had read that only the Pro 3 came with the new seals (checked with the picture of the part number on Dougals instagram and part number matches). I'm running them 160mm on a Transition Bandit, will probably lower them to 150mm.
> 
> I'm coming from a 2015 Rockshox Revelation RCT3 Dual Position at 140mm (with 120mm optional). I could never find a pressure I liked, too low and it would bottom out, but any pressure that wouldn't bottom out would be very harsh. The middle setting on high speed compression was basically unbearable other than fire roads or hard pack.
> 
> ...


The cable won't rub on the stanchion will it? That would be my biggest worry. A cable can cut into the crown pretty easily and I always try to keep it away from things. I like to make loops with zip ties to help route cables and keep them from touching things.

My mattoc (first generation) got smoother in time and really allowed for full travel after about 30-40 hours of hard use. Honestly, if you want to use more travel, start hitting things faster and going bigger. Really. The fork really does allow you to push things.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

DHbiker said:


> Okay cool thanks. Is there a universal one that fits?


What hub do you have?


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> The cable won't rub on the stanchion will it? That would be my biggest worry. A cable can cut into the crown pretty easily and I always try to keep it away from things. I like to make loops with zip ties to help route cables and keep them from touching things.
> 
> My mattoc (first generation) got smoother in time and really allowed for full travel after about 30-40 hours of hard use. Honestly, if you want to use more travel, start hitting things faster and going bigger. Really. The fork really does allow you to push things.


Right now the cable sits on top of the crown, in between the air cap and the headtube, away from the stancions. I'm going to zip tie it to the crown with some foam in between so it won't wear on the crown. I'm also working on a 3d printed fender, so I may put a cable mount on it.

I will probably leave air pressure as is, since I'm extremely pleased with the feel and plushness. If after it wears in, it still doesn't reach full travel, then I'll start dropping pressure to see if it gets better, though likely by then I'll have it reduced to 140 or 150mm travel.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> What hub do you have?


https://www.pinkbike.com/product/transition/Revolution-32-&-36/

I have the TBC Revolution 32 front wheel with its Transition Revolution hub. 20mm thru axle.

https://www.pinkbike.com/product/transition/Revolution-20mm/


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Couldnt he just use a 20mm to 15mm through axle adapter? Are the OD of the 20mm and 15mm end caps different??

Ive never ran a 20mm axle.

https://www.mtbtools.com/product/mountain-bike-thru-axle-qr-adapter-rear-hub/


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

DHbiker said:


> https://www.pinkbike.com/product/transition/Revolution-32-&-36/
> 
> I have the TBC Revolution 32 front wheel with its Transition Revolution hub. 20mm thru axle.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/product/transition/Revolution-20mm/


I have the same hub. Bought first set of reducers directly from Transition, but shipping was quite expensive as I'm in europe. Btw, its just rebranded Novatec hub, so it should not be a problem getting online anywhere, just like I did with my second set of reducers.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Couldnt he just use a 20mm to 15mm through axle adapter? Are the OD of the 20mm and 15mm end caps different??
> 
> Ive never ran a 20mm axle.
> 
> https://www.mtbtools.com/product/mountain-bike-thru-axle-qr-adapter-rear-hub/


Would that one work with my current wheel? If so I'll
Buy it and the fork today.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

DHbiker said:


> Would that one work with my current wheel? If so I'll
> Buy it and the fork today.


I can't say for certain. Probably better to follow the fellas advise above. I don't have that hub or experience personally with 20mm stuff.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Well, turns out the klunk wasn't coming from the bushings: it's the compression unit. At low speed: silence. High speed: klukity-klunk-klunk. You can image the racket going through roots and rock gardens 

Anyway, remove the compression unit and the fork is quick, instal it, cycle once and the klunk is back. At first hand it seems there's nothing worn or broken but will need to take the whole assembly apart, I suspect....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eric said:


> Well, turns out the klunk wasn't coming from the bushings: it's the compression unit. At low speed: silence. High speed: klukity-klunk-klunk. You can image the racket going through roots and rock gardens
> 
> Anyway, remove the compression unit and the fork is quick, instal it, cycle once and the klunk is back. At first hand it seems there's nothing worn or broken but will need to take the whole assembly apart, I suspect....


What is your mattoc model?


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Dougal said:


> What is your mattoc model?


It's a Gen 1 Mattoc Pro.

Unfortunately the distributor here has been no help. I asked them for technical info and they basically told me where to stick it. "Yes we have that documentation but we're not going to provide you with it. Go see a service center." Well, the only service center out here that's any good made it clear they don't do repairs - just oil changes and seal replacements. So I can't even inspect the compression unit - I'd have to order a new one and wait two weeks for it to arrive. FFS...

If anybody is willing to send me an exploded view of the unit I can at least take it apart and/or source shims if anything damaged.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Hi guys,

I received my mattoc pro boost last week and installed in on my bike. I did some basic setup and went on two rides with it so far. I noticed, that on the right leg there is some play. I can be felt, if I grab the stanchions, where they are inserted in the lower leg and rock the bike back and forth with front brake engaged.

What should I do? Is it normal, that there is some play? I had RS sektor before for 9 months, and there was absolutely no play at all.
I bought it in some german online store, but I am in Slovenia, so I would like to avoid sending it back if it is not absolutely necessary.

help


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Just ordered the Pro 2 27.5 version. Should I get the IVA and IRT upgrades?

Thanks,
DHbiker


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

DHbiker said:


> Just ordered the Pro 2 27.5 version. Should I get the IVA and IRT upgrades?
> 
> Thanks,
> DHbiker


IRT 100%

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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

DHbiker said:


> Just ordered the Pro 2 27.5 version. Should I get the IVA and IRT upgrades?
> 
> Thanks,
> DHbiker


https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Hi All,
I was looking through the Manitou Mattoc Service Manuals and now the 2018 is up and it has the oil levels back up to 15ML per side. I wonder if this is because of the new low friction seals & foam ring? The casting par numbers are the same in the 2014-2016 and now the new ones for a 100mm space Mattoc Pro 27.5 in both manuals. Last time I serviced the fork I put 10ML. I’m not sure what to put in this time, but am planning to install the new seals. Any thoughts? THX!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Funny. I just adjusted the travel on my Mattoc today and I saw that also. I soaked the oil rings and went ahead and put in 15ml. If you service the fork frequently you'll be fine.


Aresab said:


> Hi All,
> I was looking through the Manitou Mattoc Service Manuals and now the 2018 is up and it has the oil levels back up to 15ML per side. I wonder if this is because of the new low friction seals & foam ring? The casting par numbers are the same in the 2014-2016 and now the new ones for a 100mm space Mattoc Pro 27.5 in both manuals. Last time I serviced the fork I put 10ML. I'm not sure what to put in this time, but am planning to install the new seals. Any thoughts? THX!


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## bedlam (Aug 27, 2008)

Currently running 50 PSI in a 150mm IVA mattoc pro 2. I'm 140 pounds kitted up and finding it nice but a little bouncy / harsh at times. I think 50 psi might be a bit high for my weight?

But less seems to give me a lot of sag / a bit divey so I've ordered the IRT. I've also never checked the damper height so thought I'd do that and the seals at the same time.

So my question is, should I be looking at buying Motorex 2.5w or will 5w damper oil work fine for my 140 pound weight?


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Can anyone recommend a shock pump for the Mattoc? First time owning an air fork.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

DHbiker said:


> Can anyone recommend a shock pump for the Mattoc? First time owning an air fork.


Well, you could always go with a Manitou:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manitou-Su...851061&hash=item467bbf045f:g:cOUAAOSwKPxa10aB

I use this but I don't think there is anything special about it:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sks-germany-sam-suspension-pump-29253


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I just bought a cheap digital one. This form and irt seem sensitive to just a few psi

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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

ashwinearl said:


> I just bought a cheap digital one. This form and irt seem sensitive to just a few psi
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Yeah, I like the idea of a digital pump. That way, you have a solid number you can always work with. Which pump did you get?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Venzo

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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Mattoc Expert is $399 everywhere. Is this worth it? I'm on a Pike RC (non boost) which I am contemplating doing the luftkappe and v-spec tune. That's $250. If the Expert isn't worth it and I'm better off with a Pro I'll hold off.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> Mattoc Expert is $399 everywhere. Is this worth it? I'm on a Pike RC (non boost) which I am contemplating doing the luftkappe and v-spec tune. That's $250. If the Expert isn't worth it and I'm better off with a Pro I'll hold off.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

ashwinearl said:


> Venzo
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Care to share a link? I've been eyeing these for a while... looking for the right price.

Thx

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jdang307 said:


> Mattoc Expert is $399 everywhere. Is this worth it? I'm on a Pike RC (non boost) which I am contemplating doing the luftkappe and v-spec tune. That's $250. If the Expert isn't worth it and I'm better off with a Pro I'll hold off.


The only difference is cartridge rebound in the pro to save a little weight, and IRT is a aftermarket upgrade only (same for pro versions other than the 3)

I'd rock an expert and not think twice about it


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

OrenPerets said:


> Care to share a link? I've been eyeing these for a while... looking for the right price.
> 
> Thx
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$39 is what it seems priced at everywhere. I think I got mine from Amazon.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> $39 is what it seems priced at everywhere. I think I got mine from Amazon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Damn, they're $115cad on Amazon.ca


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Hey,

can somebody help me check, if my concern regarding mattoc pro boost that I received last week is justified? Or am I just going mental? :skep:

So, I think it is not performing as it should. There is problem with some stiction /binding. Here are three videos, that I took yesterday.














Presure is lower from what I would usually run, so the problem is easier to see. I was gradually getting more and more presure on the fork, but as you can see, the movement is not smooth, it goes in steps. (HA is 67°, not super slack.) This is not normal amount of stiction / binding, right? How does your mattoc performs in this test?

I also checked the play between stanchions and lower legs. If I put the finger between reverse arch and stanchions, I can feel some play (front brake on, rocking back and forth, not headset or brake pads, definitely fork play). Is this normal, to have some play there? Previous fork had pretty much zero play and I didn't notice any binding and it was much cheaper one.

@ac1000: It looks like you had very similar problem. Did you find the solution? How did you fix the problem?

Thank you guys, I would really appreciate your feedback


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Question though, were you holding the rear brake as well? Drop the air pressure and see if it cycles freely through the travel? How's it feel when you ride?

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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> My brand new mattoc pro2 drive side bushing was clicking. Got another one and its ok.


This happened on almost every mtb single crown fork I've owned..except the focks 32mm vanilla (thing was flexy as a wet noodle)..after couple weeks when damping is just about dialed seems to be when either crowns or bushings start to complain.

Mattoc bushings set/tuned up > Rox Focks creeking/cracking crownz

;^)


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Question though, were you holding the rear brake as well? Drop the air pressure and see if it cycles freely through the travel? How's it feel when you ride?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


No, I was holding only front brake.

I now have mattoc and sektor removed from my bike, empty air chambers.

If I press on it vertically (in line with stanchions and lower legs) it feels ok through the whole travel, slightly better than the sektor. But as soon as you put some perpendicular force as well it becomes much less smooth, and it binds much more than the sektor.


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## wankel (Mar 7, 2004)

s-master said:


> Hey,
> 
> can somebody help me check, if my concern regarding mattoc pro boost that I received last week is justified? Or am I just going mental? :skep:
> 
> ...


I'm having the exact same issue on my mattoc pro 2. When I first got it I tried compressing it vertically off the bike and it seemed noticeabley smoother than the xfusion sweep it replaced. Now that it is on the bike however it is very notchy, like in the video.

Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

s-master said:


> No, I was holding only front brake.
> 
> I now have mattoc and sektor removed from my bike, empty air chambers.
> 
> If I press on it vertically (in line with stanchions and lower legs) it feels ok through the whole travel, slightly better than the sektor. But as soon as you put some perpendicular force as well it becomes much less smooth, and it binds much more than the sektor.


Here is mine. Has the new seals/oil rings. 66* HTA (ish)






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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Here is mine. Has the new seals/oil rings. 66* HTA (ish)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tnx for the video. It is hard to tell exactly if you were pushing only in vertical direction or in line with the fork, but it does indeed look much smoother.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

s-master said:


> Tnx for the video. It is hard to tell exactly if you were pushing only in vertical direction or in line with the fork, but it does indeed look much smoother.


Are you pushing straight down? And if so, why???? Does that ever happen when you are riding??

If it's a brand new fork set the pressures and go ride it. Give it a few miles to break in.

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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Are you pushing straight down? And if so, why???? Does that ever happen when you are riding??
> 
> If it's a brand new fork set the pressures and go ride it. Give it a few miles to break in.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Yes, straight down in the video. To see how much binding there is when force is not totally in line with the fork. In the real life it happens all the time, when you are breaking and going over the bumps at the same time.

I received it last week, so far I did around 50km on it. Out of that was around 800m of trail/enduro style descending.

It is a posiility, that it can still brake in more.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

s-master said:


> Yes, straight down in the video. To see how much binding there is when force is not totally in line with the fork. In the real life it happens all the time, when you are breaking and going over the bumps at the same time.
> 
> I received it last week, so far I did around 50km on it. Out of that was around 800m of trail/enduro style descending.
> 
> It is a posiility, that it can still brake in more.


Did you feel it sticking while riding??

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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Yes, it can be felt while riding.

I put it back on the bike and shot another video of me ligthly jumping on the bike.
You can see, that the reat schok is sensitive to my movement, and the fork is not moving at all. LSC, HSC, was on the lowest setting, but it looks like the fork was locked.






I am convinced that I have a problematic fork now. I will try to return it for another one or get it fixed.

tnx anyway


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

s-master said:


> Yes, it can be felt while riding.
> 
> I put it back on the bike and shot another video of me ligthly jumping on the bike.
> You can see, that the reat schok is sensitive to my movement, and the fork is not moving at all. LSC, HSC, was on the lowest setting, but it looks like the fork was locked.
> ...


Do me a favor quick. Leave the bike upside down over night. Check it again in the morning after you cycle it a few times. The bushings/rings may just be dry.

Quick check that's easy to try.

Otherwise Dougal or Mullen will likely reply here as well. They are two of the most "in the know" in this thread.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


----------



## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Do me a favor quick. Leave the bike upside down over night. Check it again in the morning after you cycle it a few times. The bushings/rings may just be dry.
> 
> Quick check that's easy to try.
> 
> ...


will try that, tnx


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

s-master said:


> will try that, tnx


No problem! I usually wouldn't be so involved but I have felt what this fork feels like when correct. It's by far the best fork I have ridden to date!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

If it's smooth on a direct push then the bushings are good and it's a lubrication issue. Oil needs to work it's way up and down.

Leaving the bike upside down helps this. So does riding it.


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

s-master said:


> @ac1000: It looks like you had very similar problem. Did you find the solution? How did you fix the problem?
> 
> Thank you guys, I would really appreciate your feedback


I've sort of fixed it by sending it back to Manitou warranty twice. First trip it got new uppers and seals which helped the creaking but nothing else and second trip it got new lowers.
It didnt feel much better at first but it seems to be breaking in finally. This is after a lot of downhill riding the last couple weeks. It still doesn't feel as smooth as fox and rock shox forks on friends' bikes but I'm trying to stay optimistic.

New problem is it seems to have gotten all creaky again. I've got to try another stem and handlebar on it to 100% rule out anything else but its got pretty typical fork creak symptoms again.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

s-master said:


> Hey,
> 
> can somebody help me check, if my concern regarding mattoc pro boost that I received last week is justified? Or am I just going mental? :skep:
> 
> ...


It looks like you are putting all your weight on the fork and it is only compressing ~100m. How much do you weight and what pressure are you using? Also, what damper settings are you using?

Also, do you have IRT? I find when the IRT system needed service, the sign is a notchy fork.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

s-master said:


> Yes, it can be felt while riding.
> 
> I put it back on the bike and shot another video of me ligthly jumping on the bike.
> You can see, that the reat schok is sensitive to my movement, and the fork is not moving at all. LSC, HSC, was on the lowest setting, but it looks like the fork was locked.
> ...


What's your forks serial number and build date?

Your best bet is to email tech support and get a replacement. I have seen forks from many brands do similar things, including a mattoc boost that came through my hands. Its likely misaligned bushings from the factory.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

High Flow Pistons are go: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/high-flow-piston-16mm-pro-shockcraft.html










These are a bolt-in and come with the PTFE glide-ring installed. They will also be available slightly cheaper during service or with new forks as we exchange existing pistons.


----------



## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> High Flow Pistons are go: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/high-flow-piston-16mm-pro-shockcraft.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this difficult to install at home, like special tools, clamps needed....?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> High Flow Pistons are go: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/high-flow-piston-16mm-pro-shockcraft.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any chance of offering a complete rebound assembly that can just be bolted in?


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

s-master said:


> I have read most of the thread already, but I still have some questions
> 
> I am quite interested in the Mattoc 3 pro Boost. First question that I have is do all mattocs 3 pro now come with IRT? I think I saw that in manitou promo material somewhere, but I was not able to find a confirmation. Also, mattoc pro 3 has black stanchions, correct? What is actually different between pro 2 and pro 3? Pro 3 is 2018 model only, or was 2017 also pro 3?
> 
> ...


Also curious as to what changes were made for the Pro 3. Not a lot of info out there when I googled it.


----------



## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> Also curious as to what changes were made for the Pro 3. Not a lot of info out there when I googled it.


I believe the only changes are the Black ANO on the stanchions and slippery Dust seals.


----------



## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Do me a favor quick. Leave the bike upside down over night. Check it again in the morning after you cycle it a few times. The bushings/rings may just be dry.
> 
> Quick check that's easy to try.


I left the bike upside down while I was at work. It didn't have any effect.



Vespasianus said:


> It looks like you are putting all your weight on the fork and it is only compressing ~100m. How much do you weight and what pressure are you using? Also, what damper settings are you using?
> 
> Also, do you have IRT? I find when the IRT system needed service, the sign is a notchy fork.


I am around 72kg. For those three videos I had 40psi in main and 60psi in IRT. Otherwise, I am now hovering at around 45psi main and 70-90 IRT. LSC and HSC was open.



mullen119 said:


> What's your forks serial number and build date?
> 
> Your best bet is to email tech support and get a replacement. I have seen forks from many brands do similar things, including a mattoc boost that came through my hands. Its likely misaligned bushings from the factory.


It looks like it was produced in September 2017. SN is HB8111470.

Yes, I contacted manitou tech support, who redirected me to our local distributor. I went there, but the problem is, that the guy that can fix it is not available, probably have no parts, and manitou itself is focusing on eurobike right now (or something like that), so they were saying I would probably receive fork back at the end of August.....

I contacted the seller and he suggested to send back the fork, so they will send it to manitou, which would probably also take a long time...


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

s-master said:


> I left the bike upside down while I was at work. It didn't have any effect.
> 
> I am around 72kg. For those three videos I had 40psi in main and 60psi in IRT. Otherwise, I am now hovering at around 45psi main and 70-90 IRT. LSC and HSC was open.
> 
> ...


A few of the manitou higher ups are out of town until Monday. Email tech support again on Monday and tell them you want a warranty replacement, or have the place you purchased from email and have them say the same thing.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

mullen119 said:


> A few of the manitou higher ups are out of town until Monday. Email tech support again on Monday and tell them you want a warranty replacement, or have the place you purchased from email and have them say the same thing.


Will do, tnx.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> The only difference is cartridge rebound in the pro to save a little weight, and IRT is a aftermarket upgrade only (same for pro versions other than the 3)
> 
> I'd rock an expert and not think twice about it





Cant Climb said:


> I believe the only changes are the Black ANO on the stanchions and slippery Dust seals.


Well, doing a search for the Mattoc Pro 3 led me to chainreaction which was selling a 2017 CRC exclusive Mattoc Pro 2 for $420. Not much more than the $399 I was looking at for the expert.

Why not. Non boost which is what I need. 160mm travel, my bike I think is 150mm (2015 Bronson v1) so I'll have to change that.

Replacing the stock Fox Float CTD evolution rear shock, and Rockshox Pike RC Solo fork, with the Manitou Mcleod 2018 and 2017 Mattoc Pro 2, for about $650.

I was going to spend $200 to service the Fox CTD, and $250 to service and luftkappe the Rockshox RC Pike. So I'm out of pocket about $200 for brand new hardware that I may not even need to do compromises on.

I'm 140lb or so, before gear, riding San Diego/So Cal trails (not sure how to characterize that, there are big drops, loose rock trails, smooth river rocks to hard, jaggedy edge rocks). San Juan, Noble Canyon, Greer Canyon when we drive.

I've never felt my suspension was "plush" or sucked up obstacles. Tons and tons of chatter when going down fire roads. Sore and numb wrists. Climbing over small square edge rocks and I get bucked off my seat. For 3 years I just thought that was how it was supposed to be. It's a $4700 bike!

But after looking to service my shocks I was led down the rabbit hole and that led me to here. Excited to try the new pieces out and learn how to tune!


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> Well, doing a search for the Mattoc Pro 3 led me to chainreaction which was selling a 2017 CRC exclusive Mattoc Pro 2 for $420. Not much more than the $399 I was looking at for the expert.
> 
> Why not. Non boost which is what I need. 160mm travel, my bike I think is 150mm (2015 Bronson v1) so I'll have to change that.
> 
> ...


While both the fork and the shock will make a world of difference, make sure to be realistic. As the linkage kinematics of that bike aren't known for small bump.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Cant Climb (Oct 12, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> Well, doing a search for the Mattoc Pro 3 led me to chainreaction which was selling a 2017 CRC exclusive Mattoc Pro 2 for $420. Not much more than the $399 I was looking at for the expert.
> 
> Why not. Non boost which is what I need. 160mm travel, my bike I think is 150mm (2015 Bronson v1) so I'll have to change that.
> 
> ...


I have a 2013 Bronson V1. The Fox CTD was the worst thing about the bike. Few years ago i sent it to Avalanche for a tune and the improvement was huge. This winter i bought a Fox-Van-Performance coil shock and got a Chinese Ti spring off ebay. Bike is much much more sensitive now. It just motors through the flat square stuff. As for forks i run the Mattoc Pro2, excellent fork but it is very sensitive to PSI and you have to keep it well maintained, do the lowers often even with the new dust seals.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

R_Pierce said:


> While both the fork and the shock will make a world of difference, make sure to be realistic. As the linkage kinematics of that bike aren't known for small bump.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Thanks. Yeah I don't want best in class, but better than what I have will be good for me for sure! I plan to do all I can to improve that somewhat. RWC needle bearings I hear help a little. New seals for the mattoc once I open it.



Cant Climb said:


> I have a 2013 Bronson V1. The Fox CTD was the worst thing about the bike. Few years ago i sent it to Avalanche for a tune and the improvement was huge. This winter i bought a Fox-Van-Performance coil shock and got a Chinese Ti spring off ebay. Bike is much much more sensitive now. It just motors through the flat square stuff. As for forks i run the Mattoc Pro2, excellent fork but it is very sensitive to PSI and you have to keep it well maintained, do the lowers often even with the new dust seals.


Incredible how bad that CTD evolution is. I just bought a bike stand and plan to service it often.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cant Climb said:


> Is this difficult to install at home, like special tools, clamps needed....?


You need to remove the rebound assembly (requires removal of compression assembly, drain oil and remove lower legs first), remove the outer cartridge tube from the rebound assembly and then remove the piston.

It's easier with clamps yes.



Vespasianus said:


> Any chance of offering a complete rebound assembly that can just be bolted in?


Absolutely. We're putting up an exchange version which works for service and/or buying a new fork or rebound damper. Link coming soon. Just battling to get everything done!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The high flow piston as an exchange part now comes up as a related product on forks and rebound dampers which it can be used in. Example is the Mattoc Pro 27" rebound assembly here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-27-5-rebound-assembly-manitou.html


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

There's older mattocs on sale for 399. Experts, gold stanchions. Are the new models worth nearly double?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> There's older mattocs on sale for 399. Experts, gold stanchions. Are the new models worth nearly double?


Experts are discontinued and on close-out. The Expert rebound damper isn't available so any issues you upgrade to the Pro damper parts. Which gives you a Pro level Mattoc:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> There's older mattocs on sale for 399. Experts, gold stanchions. Are the new models worth nearly double?


Newest boost standard is a bonus for future proofing yourself, and IRT and new seals are stock. Whether that's worth double is up to you. Performance wise it's about the same.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Damn, it is finally Eurobike 2018 and still no sign of a new 29 LT trail fork, mattoc or better ;( or at least a new shock... Aaaargh Manitou come on


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Can anyone who has ordered a 27.5 pro2 tell me if it includes the 26" configuration HBO cone to reduce the A-C height? I'm specifically looking at ordering the CRC exclusive version.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Mine came with all the bits for 26 and 27.5


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Desertride said:


> Can anyone who has ordered a 27.5 pro2 tell me if it includes the 26" configuration HBO cone to reduce the A-C height? I'm specifically looking at ordering the CRC exclusive version.


yep, mine came with it too


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Got my mattoc in today! $5.99 for shipping from CRC and it goes from there to San Diego in two business days. Crazy.

Mattoc Tool Kit. Worth it? I don't have a ton of other tools around so I'm assuming I should get it vs. trying to Macguyver a thin walled socket etc. I would also need to order the kit to work on the McLeod. I figure it'll save me money in the long run servicing myself.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

jdang307 said:


> Got my mattoc in today! $5.99 for shipping from CRC and it goes from there to San Diego in two business days. Crazy.
> 
> Mattoc Tool Kit. Worth it? I don't have a ton of other tools around so I'm assuming I should get it vs. trying to Macguyver a thin walled socket etc. I would also need to order the kit to work on the McLeod. I figure it'll save me money in the long run servicing myself.


To me, the toolkit is worth it. Makes the service incredibly easy from the get go.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

If you have a drill, bench grinder and a bit of scrap wood, a thin walled socket is easy enough.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> To me, the toolkit is worth it. Makes the service incredibly easy from the get go.


same here.


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Screw it, ordering the kit. $56 for 3 sockets is kinda crazy but whatevs.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

acedeuce802 said:


> Just got my first two rides in on my 27.5 Non-boost Mattoc Pro 2, bought from CRC. It has the new seals which I was surprised, because I had read that only the Pro 3 came with the new seals (checked with the picture of the part number on Dougals instagram and part number matches). I'm running them 160mm on a Transition Bandit, will probably lower them to 150mm.
> 
> I'm coming from a 2015 Rockshox Revelation RCT3 Dual Position at 140mm (with 120mm optional). I could never find a pressure I liked, too low and it would bottom out, but any pressure that wouldn't bottom out would be very harsh. The middle setting on high speed compression was basically unbearable other than fire roads or hard pack.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, now I'm intrigued. I also got the same fork (160mm travel) from CRC delivered yesterday. Maybe it has the new seals? I hope so! Where do I look


----------



## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> Hmmm, now I'm intrigued. I also got the same fork (160mm travel) from CRC delivered yesterday. Maybe it has the new seals? I hope so! Where do I look




__
http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

acedeuce802 said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ba9-iIbF9KJ/


Oh sweet I don't even need to open it up! Thanks


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Just checked and it came with the new seals. Sweet!


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

jdang307 said:


> Screw it, ordering the kit. $56 for 3 sockets is kinda crazy but whatevs.


I can't justify that cost when the total of all three came out under $15. I'm handy enough with a dremel and grinder.


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Desertride said:


> I can't justify that cost when the total of all three came out under $15. I'm handy enough with a dremel and grinder.


No dremel here, no grinder, no tools other than the very basics and what I need for the bike


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi,

I've currently got a mattock pro 2 in 27.5 offset. is there a crown steerer assembly in 41mm offset that will fit?


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

POAH said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've currently got a mattock pro 2 in 27.5 offset. is there a crown steerer assembly in 41mm offset that will fit?


Your looking for this?

How much of a difference does the 3mm difference make?


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

yeah but that's the original pro I have the pro2 - don't know if they fit


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't see why it wouldn't, the casting for the lowers didn't change, did it? In any case, I don't think there was a 26" version of the pro2 with the 41mm offset


----------



## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

jdang307 said:


> No dremel here, no grinder, no tools other than the very basics and what I need for the bike


The only thing you have to make is the thin socket. The newer Park cassette tool works without the slot.

And to reiterate my ghetto solution for the socket that I think I have already mentioned: You can chuck that socket up in most drills, and spin it against a hand file, followed by some sandpaper to smooth it out. Still not the fastest method, but not bad, and you're sure to turn the socket down evenly. And I just assume everyone owns a drill, for some reason.


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I ordered this 8mm socket which looks pretty thin to begin with. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AXTK8MI/


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Desertride said:


> I ordered this 8mm socket which looks pretty thin to begin with. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AXTK8MI/


I ordered that and it's not thin enough.
I had my friend with a lathe turn it down to fit and it cracked on the first use.
Ended up ordering one from Dougal.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

You'll still have to grind it. I thought it was amazing how thin I had to get an average socket...it's pretty much see-through at the points of the hex.

I think that one is 3/8" drive, so it's probably too big for the average consumer drill chuck. You'll want the 1/4" version to use my patented handheld ghetto-lathe method.

Wish Manitou would just sell that socket for like five bucks or something. Or just be a little generous and include it with the fork, since it's literally the one weirdly-specialized 'literally no one makes or sells this but us' tool.


----------



## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

phuchmileif said:


> You'll still have to grind it. I thought it was amazing how thin I had to get an average socket...it's pretty much see-through at the points of the hex.
> 
> I think that one is 3/8" drive, so it's probably too big for the average consumer drill chuck. You'll want the 1/4" version to use my patented handheld ghetto-lathe method.
> 
> Wish Manitou would just sell that socket for like five bucks or something. Or just be a little generous and include it with the fork, since it's literally the one weirdly-specialized 'literally no one makes or sells this but us' tool.


Or just use Allen bolt on either side or an external nut like a lot of other manufacturers.

I am not too mad, as it turns out my HT pedals requires a thin 8mm socket to service the pedals so have gotten a bit of use out of it!


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

just checking that Motorex SuperGliss 100k is the recommended lower lube?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

phuchmileif said:


> You'll still have to grind it. I thought it was amazing how thin I had to get an average socket...it's pretty much see-through at the points of the hex.
> 
> I think that one is 3/8" drive, so it's probably too big for the average consumer drill chuck. You'll want the 1/4" version to use my patented handheld ghetto-lathe method.
> 
> Wish Manitou would just sell that socket for like five bucks or something. Or just be a little generous and include it with the fork, since it's literally the one weirdly-specialized 'literally no one makes or sells this but us' tool.


Yeah, I had mentioned that before but really, the Mattoc can be had for such a low price, even paying extra for the tool kit does not change the fact they whole thing is an incredibly deal.


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

phuchmileif said:


> The only thing you have to make is the thin socket. The newer Park cassette tool works without the slot.
> 
> And to reiterate my ghetto solution for the socket that I think I have already mentioned: You can chuck that socket up in most drills, and spin it against a hand file, followed by some sandpaper to smooth it out. Still not the fastest method, but not bad, and you're sure to turn the socket down evenly. And I just assume everyone owns a drill, for some reason.


Yeah ... I'm staying with the kit  I have the drill. But it's just too much time to figure that all out. I'd need to buy a hand file, and sandpaper. And still might muck it up lol.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

POAH said:


> just checking that Motorex SuperGliss 100k is the recommended lower lube?


That might be the best but I think other things also work well. I use Fox Gold and when temps are >70f, it works great.


----------



## manitou_nc (Jul 12, 2018)

Mattoc travel can be adjusted with a standard cassette tool, an 8mm Hex, and a 4mm Hex. This method requires a few additional steps compared to using the custom tool kit but is possible, nevertheless.

1. Dump the air in the spring (and IRT if installed)
2. There is a 4mm hex fitting in the end of the air valve. You need to compress the air valve fully to engage the hex, so it helps to mount the fork horizontally in a stand so you can push and rotate the 4mm. Rotate Clockwise to loosen.
3. Use 8mm to loosen the damper adapter. Rotate Clockwise to loosen.
4. Remove lowers, watch for drpping semi-bath oil.
5. Remove Bottom-out spacers if installed.
6. Push in air valve to fully compress Spring shaft.
7. Use Cassette tool to loosen spring end-cap. Park FR-5 and some other brands fit over the fitting and bumper.
8. Depress the Air valve to open the equalization valve and remove the air spring assembly.
9. Add/remove Spacers as needed to adjust travel.
10. Apply Slikoleum or Prep-M grease to the air piston and leg threads. Insert the air spring assembly into leg. Depress the Air valve to open the equalization valve and bottom the shaft on the end-cap so the cassette tool will fit.
11. Torque the air spring assembly end-cap
12. Reassemble the bottom-out spacers if applicable.
13. To reassemble the casting onto the shaft fitting the damper shaft will need to fully compress down to the end-cap. Now is a good time to check and adjust the oil height if needed to get full travel. (Oil height: 75mm from top-cap seat of crown)
14. Put a few drops of semi-bath on seal and start the casting onto the legs. 
15. After legs pass the first bushing, add 7cc of semi-bath oil thru each threaded hole at bottom of casting lowers.
16. Start the thread of the damper fitting (8mm) and spring fitting (4mm) by turning Counter-clockwise to tighten. Only thread a few turns!; the air pressure will need to equalize past the threads in the lowers as you extend the casting. 
17. Depress the air valve and pull the lowers to full extension. 
18. Finish threading and torque the Rebound and Air fittings.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

My pro arrived today and I'm looking forward to installing it, but I just noticed that bikewagon on Amazon is selling the expert for 299.99(!) right now.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Desertride said:


> My pro arrived today and I'm looking forward to installing it, but I just noticed that bikewagon on Amazon is selling the expert for 299.99(!) right now.


Holy crap that is a good price!


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## kwack (Oct 26, 2004)

*Just purchased a pro 2 at CRC*

Hi

Just purchased one of the pro 2 mattoc at CRC for £299

Couple of questions as I see there are loads of pages on this thread

The LSC clicks 4 times as well as the HBO

The hsc knob clicks faintly around 4 times and is not as positive a click as the LSC one.

Is this OK ? I haven't fitted the fork yet as I wanted to check everything feels right before I cut the steerer and all

Cheers
Kwack


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

That's normal. While the HSC circuit works extremely well, the clicks could have been more positive/defined. Nothing to worry about though.

If you don't feel any clicks at all, then contact CRC. My fork (came from different bikeshop with online store) was missing the 2mm balls that provide the clicks by rolling in and out of the indentations.


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## kwack (Oct 26, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> That's normal. While the HSC circuit works extremely well, the clicks could have been more positive/defined. Nothing to worry about though.
> 
> If you don't feel any clicks at all, then contact CRC. My fork (came from different bikeshop with online store) was missing the 2mm balls that provide the clicks by rolling in and out of the indentations.


Thats good to hear thanks..

In terms of set up. when you let all the air out it doesnt fully compress like other forks I have had.

I pumped up to 50 psi and cycled the forks a few times , it seems pretty hard when doing this in my hands.

I read that you need to pull the forks to max extension then pump up (upside down) Guess when I fit them I will see what the PSI needs to be based on sag (I weigh around 90kg kitted)

Does this all sound normal?

First time i bought a set of Manitou more used to Rockshox and Fox previously

Cheers
Kwack


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

I bought myself a pro 2 as well from CRC, it was impossible to lose that offer.
I will install irt from my Pro and will probably sell the old one or keep it for future tests.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

kwack said:


> Thats good to hear thanks..
> 
> In terms of set up. when you let all the air out it doesnt fully compress like other forks I have had.
> 
> ...


Bottom out comes before it fully compress, just make sure to have 160 mm of travel.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

davideb87 said:


> Bottom out comes before it fully compress, just make sure to have 160 mm of travel.


It won't compress to the crown like you are used to. Just check the o ring travel.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Vespasianus said:


> Holy crap that is a good price!


With the current ebay PRIMO code you might be able to order the expert from bikewagon for $250!


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## kwack (Oct 26, 2004)

*Pm adaptor to fit 203mm brake*

Hi

Just tried fitting my 203mm disc using the existing pm adaptor that I used on my fox forks and the caliper is miles away from the rotor.

Both forks were standard 180pm so the simple hop up one should work

The brakes are shimano xt. Any ideas what adaptor I need?

Cheers
Nigel


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kwack said:


> Hi
> 
> Just tried fitting my 203mm disc using the existing pm adaptor that I used on my fox forks and the caliper is miles away from the rotor.
> 
> ...


Your Fox probably wasn't 180mm PM. Got a pic of the adapter?


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

Does anyone know if Manitou plans on making reduced offset (42-44mm 29er) Mattocs anytime soon?


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## kwack (Oct 26, 2004)

Resolved now thanks. I thought all fox with 160mm travel were 180 pm out the box. I got a 160/183mm adaptor coming which should work

Any thoughts on ballpark psi starting for 90kg kitted

I stuck 50psi in and it's quite bouncy and riding off pavements etc And round the road adjusting hsc and LSC didn't seem to have much effect

Cheers
Nigel


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Something that I think would be interesting to add to this thread or another one might be peoples settings for much easier initial starting points for people.

Something like :
Rider Weight : 
Bike :
Main Pressure :
IRT Pressure :
LSC :
HSC : 
Rebound : 

I realize every setting will be different but it could help to cut down a LOT on setup time, especially with IRT having a better starting point than whats on the fork. As its not very close IMO.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Agreed, more user settings would be very useful

I was riding with these settings for a while.
Rider Weight : ~200 with gear 
Bike : Canfield Balance
Fork travel : 160 mm
Main Pressure : 45 psi
IRT Pressure : 80 psi
LSC : 4 (1 = closed)
HSC : 5
HBO : 6
Rebound : 6

I recently switched to higher pressure to see how the fork feels at the recommended pressure
Rider Weight : ~200 with gear 
Bike : Canfield Balance
Fork travel : 160 mm
Main Pressure : 60 psi
IRT Pressure : 100 psi
LSC : 5 (1 = closed)
HSC : 5
HBO : 6
Rebound : 5

First impression at the higher pressure is positive. The bike feels a lot more composed on jumps and handles better with less change in geometry mid-corner. On the mild trails I've ridden so far, I don't notice any loss of traction or unreasonable harshness. I do feel the trail more, but not in a bad way. I'll get to test it on some real rocks this weekend.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Something that I think would be interesting to add to this thread or another one might be peoples settings for much easier initial starting points for people.
> 
> Something like :
> Rider Weight :
> ...


Add fork travel to that list. As in 140mm, 150mm, 160mm.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Commencal Meta V4, 160mm
185 pounds

Main: ~45 psi. 40 (by my gauge; take that with a grain of salt) is a bit soft but rideable. 50 starts to get a bit stiff.
IRT: ~70 psi.
Rebound: full soft
HSC: full soft
LSC: one or two clicks from all the way up. This makes very little difference with the HSC all the way down, but my brain just feels like this is where it should be.

I have the newer low-friction dust seals and am using Maxima 3w (14 cSt). IIRC the stock oil is in the 20's?

You would think it would feel under-damped but it really doesn't. Every time I try to dial in a little HSC or rebound, it just feels harsher with no real positive.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

2017 Intense Recluse SL

230lbs

150mm travel

Main - 45psi

IRT - 80psi

Rebound - 2 clicks from full open

HBO - full open

LSC - full open

HSC - 1 click from full open.


Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Interesting. I thought most of my wide-open brethren were lighter than me.

And I'm always curious exactly how accurate any of our pumps are....we seem to have found about the same setup, but I wonder if it would actually be more like, say, 40 and 50 when you measure it with someone else's pump.

Also, I'm considering going to some really retarded damper oil, i.e. the clear 'Like Water' from Redline. Has anyone run anything that light? I think Dougal said his wife's bike uses a sub-10 cSt oil, but that's buried some pages back.

Like Water is 5.5 cSt, Extra Light is 9.8 cSt...

Maybe that would actually get me into those dials a bit.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Riding weight ~160lbs.
2015 Trance Advanced (non-boost)
150mm
Main Pressure : 25psi
IRT Pressure : 30psi
LSC : min
HSC : min
Rebound 1 click from min (will try min next ride)

With these pressures, I only used 133mm, and that's hitting some pretty big roots at speed. Balance and stability isn't bad but I'm getting some arm pump.
On the previous ride (same trails) I tried 20/35psi, and it was a bit mushy at sag but only used 130mm max, small bumps weren't as smooth as I expected.
I don't understand why I can't use full travel even at these silly low pressures, and it still feels a bit harsh. 
Welcome any suggested pressures...

I think I've got Red Line Extralight in the damper and WPL 20wt in the lowers, with the new seals.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

phuchmileif said:


> Interesting. I thought most of my wide-open brethren were lighter than me.
> 
> And I'm always curious exactly how accurate any of our pumps are....we seem to have found about the same setup, but I wonder if it would actually be more like, say, 40 and 50 when you measure it with someone else's pump.
> 
> ...


Might want to try the extra light or mix it w/ light wt redline first, be careful, the numbers on the like water could make hsc damping non-existent..it's depending on spring pressure/s and your trails of course, but you could hit something at high speed and blow thru travel instantly once it starts flowing, especially if you have increased negative spring volume


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Has anyone tried Torco RSF Light for oil in their Mattoc? 
- Viscosity at 40C = 14.5 and claims a high VI near 300.

I have 2 bottles that I bought for my X-Fusion Sweep HLR. It seems to have similar specs to Maxima Plush 3WT (14.0 @40C).

Any thoughts or experiences would be helpful.


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## jeti (Mar 14, 2012)

*Mattoc Expert 2017 not getting full travel.*

Hi, I was waiting for a month to sort itself out - which it didn't. 
Today I removed the compression damper and measured oil the level (ok).
Also removed the air and tried to bottom the fork with my full weight on bars - it was the same - about 145mm. And I can feel bottom out harshly.

Next time I'll remove the lowers, but what to look for? I bought the fork new from CRC, I guess there shouldn't be any travel spacers installed?

Cheers, Janez


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jeti said:


> Hi, I was waiting for a month to sort itself out - which it didn't.
> Today I removed the compression damper and measured oil the level (ok).
> Also removed the air and tried to bottom the fork with my full weight on bars - it was the same - about 145mm. And I can feel bottom out harshly.
> 
> ...


Is it set at 150mm travel? What's the issue?

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## jeti (Mar 14, 2012)

R_Pierce said:


> Is it set at 150mm travel? What's the issue?


Well, when I bought it from CRC it said 160mm travel fork  I can only get about 145mm.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jeti said:


> Well, when I bought it from CRC it said 160mm travel fork  I can only get about 145mm.


it might have a travel spacer on it then.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

jeti said:


> Well, when I bought it from CRC it said 160mm travel fork  I can only get about 145mm.


I bought mine from CRC as well recently, i can get full travel (a bit less actually, ~155 mm)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

So I have a few rides in on Dougal's modified rebound piston (30ish miles), so I figured I'd post my thoughts 

I had ridden the same 2 trails the previous 2 day, and did not change my spring settings through the testing to keep variables to a minimum. Only changes were Dougals high flow piston, hot oil pink damper oil, and supergliss bath oil (supergliss was used on the previous rides do it wasn't a new variable) fork is a 160mm mattoc pro boost.

The difference is subtle, but noticeable, mainly on large square edge hits. What would give a small spike previously was slightly less harsh. Less feedback into the hands on rough sections of the trail and and it balanced slightly better with my McLeod. I was able to run in LSC 3 and 4 (matched with 1 click in of hsc) without feeling too harsh. This was not possible before (usually would run hsc 1 click in and matched with one click lsc at most). Overall, there is a small amount of improvement that can be had with the modification, mainly because of the ability to dial in the compression setting to your liking.

So, do I recommend spending your money on it? Well, that depends on who you are. Its not something that causes a huge jump in performance. It's a modified piston, not a new damper. The changes in performance are small, but noticeable. If you are happy with your current setup, or cant tell the difference between lsc1 and lsc2, or 2 psi change in spring rate, this probably isn't for you. This is something for the people who take fine tuning the performance of their suspension seriously and want every last ounce of performance. It's for the people who like to tinker with their adjusters, and are never satisfied with what they have. At around $70 usd plus shipping, (buy supergliss while you are there), its probably not worth it if you are a newb or dont notice subtle changes. If you are in the group that does notice and demands every last drop of performance, its money well spent.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> So I have a few rides in on Dougal's modified rebound piston (30ish miles), so I figured I'd post my thoughts
> 
> I had ridden the same 2 trails the previous 2 day, and did not change my spring settings through the testing to keep variables to a minimum. Only changes were Dougals high flow piston, hot oil pink damper oil, and supergliss bath oil (supergliss was used on the previous rides do it wasn't a new variable) fork is a 160mm mattoc pro boost.
> 
> ...


What was your terrain like?

This is a mod that works best in choppy and rocky. Which is where I ride and why I did it.
But can also help in more rolling if you need more support from LSC without harshness.

What pressures are you running?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> What was your terrain like?
> 
> This is a mod that works best in choppy and rocky. Which is where I ride and why I did it.
> But can also help in more rolling if you need more support from LSC without harshness.
> ...


One of the trails was a flow trail, it wasn't as noticeable there. The 2nd trail was much more chunky and that's where it became obvious that it was a improvement over stock. The more chucky, high shaft speed impacts you have on your trails, the more significant the improvement would be for sure.

It absolutely makes a difference, and for home tuners it is worth it. Average Joe's running average pace... the line blurs a little.

I'm running 51.5/99.5 @160mm rebound 8 clicks out


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> One of the trails was a flow trail, it wasn't as noticeable there. The 2nd trail was much more chunky and that's where it became obvious that it was a improvement over stock. The more chucky, high shaft speed impacts you have on your trails, the more significant the improvement would be for sure.
> 
> It absolutely makes a difference, and for home tuners it is worth it. Average Joe's running average pace... the line blurs a little.
> 
> I'm running 51.5/99.5 @160mm rebound 8 clicks out


That's a lot of pressure. I'm running 40/60psi to allow even faster compression.
I run HSC open and LSC closed.

Essentially my setup is almost digressive. Support with the ability to rapidly compress over sharp impacts.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> That's a lot of pressure. I'm running 40/60psi to allow even faster compression.
> I run HSC open and LSC closed.
> 
> Essentially my setup is almost digressive. Support with the ability to rapidly compress over sharp impacts.


I use full travel regularly with those pressures. Measured with a digital pump that reads higher than my analog pumps. Accuracy of any of them is unknown, though I lean towards the digital pump being more accurate. I use the digital pump for setting pressures for easily repeatable pressures and ability to find tune with half psi increments under 100. I run my HBO maxed

One thing I have noticed with the mc2 damper is that some dampers have up to .2mm float with in the 10mm shim stack, others have no float. It makes it a little hard to compare hsc settings. I purposely run mine with .2mm float when full open, so my hsc one click on may be equivalent to yours full open.

I was switching back and forth between max lsc and max -1. Neither of those setting were possible before running the modified rebound piston. It does a good job or keeping harshness from popping up while running a significant compression damping. My older mattoc (expert non boost gen 1) required all compression adjustments full open.

The greatest feature of the piston upgrade in my opinion. Is that it makes the compression adjustments more useable, therefore allowing the user to use the adjuster to fine tune to their liking. I highly doubt anyone without the upgrade is maxing out the lsc with out excessive feedback into their hands.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I use full travel regularly with those pressures. Measured with a digital pump that reads higher than my analog pumps. Accuracy of any of them is unknown, though I lean towards the digital pump being more accurate. I use the digital pump for setting pressures for easily repeatable pressures and ability to find tune with half psi increments under 100. I run my HBO maxed
> 
> One thing I have noticed with the mc2 damper is that some dampers have up to .2mm float with in the 10mm shim stack, others have no float. It makes it a little hard to compare hsc settings. I purposely run mine with .2mm float when full open, so my hsc one click on may be equivalent to yours full open.
> 
> ...


I rely on full HBO to suck up the big stuff and tune the air spring for the mid-stroke. I had a run with HBO accidentally wound open last summer which made that very very obvious.

I haven't even checked the compression shim stack in my current fork. It's on the list.

The piston works to reduce the quadratics of the original piston. Quadratics are the damping port effects which square damping with speed. Double the speed gives you 4x the effect. Removing these quadratics shifts a lot of the damping duties from the rebound piston to the compression assembly. The faster it compresses, the bigger the difference.

Combined with a tighter seal on the damper shaft it also eliminates oil foaming.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

My old fork was 2015 rockshox pike. 160mm rotor post. I had SLX M675 brakes with 180mm rotors. So my old setup had a 180mm adapter and longer bolts.

Mattoc I guess is 180mm? I didn't know and it was not even close. So I took the adapter out, but now my bolts are too long. How do I figure out what bolts to buy for the shimanos?

Is this all I need?

https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT-BR-M775-Caliper-Fixing-Bolt


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## MiWolverine (Jun 15, 2009)

jdang307 said:


> My old fork was 2015 rockshox pike. 160mm rotor post. I had SLX M675 brakes with 180mm rotors. So my old setup had a 180mm adapter and longer bolts.
> 
> Mattoc I guess is 180mm? I didn't know and it was not even close. So I took the adapter out, but now my bolts are too long. How do I figure out what bolts to buy for the shimanos?
> 
> ...


Any m6x18 or 19mm bolt will work. If you have a hardware store nearby, they might stock them. Get the matching washer, too.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

jdang307 said:


> My old fork was 2015 rockshox pike. 160mm rotor post. I had SLX M675 brakes with 180mm rotors. So my old setup had a 180mm adapter and longer bolts.
> 
> Mattoc I guess is 180mm? I didn't know and it was not even close. So I took the adapter out, but now my bolts are too long. How do I figure out what bolts to buy for the shimanos?
> 
> ...


Yes, when installing Shimano callipers directly to the post mounts without adapters you sound use the Shimano bolts M6x18.7mm (Y8C509020).


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm in the middle of changing my new mattoc pro from 27.5 to 26. My question is, I looked at the wrong page of the service manual and removed the rebound assembly out of the bottom before taking the damper off from the top. Would that have messed up anything?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Dougal said:


> The piston works to reduce the quadratics of the original piston. Quadratics are the damping port effects which square damping with speed. Double the speed gives you 4x the effect. Removing these quadratics shifts a lot of the damping duties from the rebound piston to the compression assembly. The faster it compresses, the bigger the difference.


What's the disadvantage of using your piston?
That is, why wouldn't Manitou use a similar design stock?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Desertride said:


> I'm in the middle of changing my new mattoc pro from 27.5 to 26. My question is, I looked at the wrong page of the service manual and removed the rebound assembly out of the bottom before taking the damper off from the top. Would that have messed up anything?


It won't hurt anything pullingit apart in that order, but it needs to be reinstalled in the correct order.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ac1000 said:


> What's the disadvantage of using your piston?
> That is, why wouldn't Manitou use a similar design stock?


No disadvantage. It's more expensive to make and most customers wouldn't notice.

If you're on MTBR reading this, then you're not an average customer.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

*27.5 to 26 conversion*

I finished doing a 27.5 160mm to 26 140mm conversion and it went mostly OK. A few notes that might help someone (a few are tips I've used from other posts):

1) As far as tools, the newer shimano cassette tool works fine unmodified. It's handy to have a 26mm socket on hand to drive the cassette tool and attach to a torque wrench.
I did grind down most of the chamfer on a 24" socket, but if you are careful, it looks like it would work without grinding.
For the thin 8mm walled socket: I bought a cheap 1/4 drive long socket for a few dollars and ground it down by sticking it in a drill and running it against a bench grinder till it fit -the final diameter was about 10.2mm.
You meed a pretty thin box or flat faced adjustable wrench to fit the wrench flats on the HBO(?) rod. My set was not thin enough, I had to grind a small adjustable down.

2) The manitou video on youtube for converting from 26 to 27.5 should be your guide except for the following:
a) you don't need a clamp, use the bike tube trick
b) There is now a spacer on the damper side to remove
c) I'm sure this issue was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but I missed it. PLEASE, unless you have done this before with success, do not fill the damper with oil before attaching the lowers. The video has the tech do the initial fill, plug the top with a shop towel and then rotate the fork with the stanchions tilted up to install the lowers and put in semibath oil. OK, so you're wasting a bunch of oil just from what the towel absorbs, but the real problem is that it is not so easy to engage the threads of the rebound damper rod, so you end up pushing in the lower, and getting oil everywhere... basically like 100cc or so of expensive (where I live) fork oil wasted. Instead, follow the casting installations instruction from the 2017 service manual: install lowers first, then do the damper oil. The disadvantage is that you can't cycle the damper easily by just pushing the rod up and down. Instead you need to compress the entire fork, but at least you can do it without losing most of the oil afterward. 
c) the video is from 2016 and has the old semibath oil volume for the lowers. The 2017 manual specs more than twice the amount (that's quite a jump up). Naturally I missed that and had to go back.​
Thanks to all whose tips I adopted, I hope this helps someone.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

New bolts should be in today so I'll be testing my new fork and mcleod shock tomorrow on a 2015 v1 Bronson.

I have no idea on curves, progression, digression, etc. The bike shop set me up 3 years ago and I just rode it. Never even touched it since. Since it was my first MTB ever, I just didn't know what to expect.

I'm 140lb out of the shower. Any tips on what to look for? I do know my hands and arms get numb after just a few minutes of riding downhill over this one fire road over here. It's littered with river rocks, small ones. Small bump compliance then I know is crap. On big hits I don't just flow over the rock, I get rocked up and then on landing I dive pretty hard.

I knew I needed new suspension (or at least to learn about it and tune my own) was at a rock garden at a local trail Ted Williams. I was walking my bike down it when 3 dudes just slammed over it and their bodies and frames barely moved. That's when I realized, my suspension is S**t!

Without knowing my riding preference at all but knowing my weight what are some tips or even starting points with the air, rebound etc?


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

There are lots of setup videos around the web, but I think this one is better than most for the basics of sag and rebound. 




If you have IRT, you'll need to experiment with the IRT pressure on the trail, but initially you should set it to be about 50% more than your main chamber pressure. So if you've got 50 psi in the main, start with about 75 psi IRT.

From there, you have a good base to start fiddling with HBO, HSC and LSC. Being only 140 pounds, you probably won't need much HSC or LSC. Set HSC first, start with it fully open and try all the range of LSC. Then try that again with one click of HSC. When these are dialed, hit the biggest jump, drop or square-edged rock on your local trails and set HBO as needed.

Again, I'm expecting you to use very little of this at your weight, unless you're a very aggressive rider - and even then, probably just HBO and more pressure in IRT.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Thank you. Digging into my VPP more, it seems like it's digressive, a tiny bit linear, then progressive?

So it's stiff at the low end, I'm assuming to help with pedaling? Then it ramps up to help with big hits. So am I right in my assumption that I can kind of tune it to be more plush with the small bumps? That's with this and the mcleod. Riding over a root or even a small rock right now I get bucked off the seat.


EDIT: That video is excellent!


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> New bolts should be in today so I'll be testing my new fork and mcleod shock tomorrow on a 2015 v1 Bronson.
> 
> I have no idea on curves, progression, digression, etc. The bike shop set me up 3 years ago and I just rode it. Never even touched it since. Since it was my first MTB ever, I just didn't know what to expect.
> 
> ...


What travel are you setting it at? For your reference ,I am 140 lbs running 140mm with IRT.

My settings are around 30 to 35 main air, 50 to 55 IRT, two clicks rebound, HBO open or +1, LSC +2 to +4

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ashwinearl said:


> What travel are you setting it at? For your reference ,I am 140 lbs running 140mm with IRT.
> 
> My settings are around 30 to 35 main air, 50 to 55 IRT, two clicks rebound, HBO open or +1, LSC +2 to +4
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


My bike is a 150mm but my new shock is 160mm and I'm going to leave it at that according to other bronson v1 owners experiences

No IRT yet (still wondering if I want it)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> I finished doing a 27.5 160mm to 26 140mm conversion and it went mostly OK. A few notes that might help someone (a few are tips I've used from other posts):
> 
> 1) As far as tools, the newer shimano cassette tool works fine unmodified. It's handy to have a 26mm socket on hand to drive the cassette tool and attach to a torque wrench.
> I did grind down most of the chamfer on a 24" socket, but if you are careful, it looks like it would work without grinding.
> ...


The lower leg bath oil spec is 7cc per side. I use 10cc and that's working out fine.

The 15cc is a mis-print.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> There are lots of setup videos around the web, but I think this one is better than most for the basics of sag and rebound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ignore sag. It is not the goal. Frequency is:

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup

If you run IRT. You can disable it for initial setup by using the same pressure top and bottom. Then once you have a feel for the frequency you like you can start splitting pressures with more in the top and less in the bottom.

Generally 1.5-2x is the multiple you're heading for. I have had demo forks back with 180 psi in the top IRT chamber!


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Desertride said:


> c) I'm sure this issue was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but I missed it. PLEASE, unless you have done this before with success, do not fill the damper with oil before attaching the lowers. The video has the tech do the initial fill, plug the top with a shop towel and then rotate the fork with the stanchions tilted up to install the lowers and put in semibath oil. OK, so you're wasting a bunch of oil just from what the towel absorbs, but the real problem is that it is not so easy to engage the threads of the rebound damper rod, so you end up pushing in the lower, and getting oil everywhere... basically like 100cc or so of expensive (where I live) fork oil wasted. Instead, follow the casting installations instruction from the 2017 service manual: install lowers first, then do the damper oil. The disadvantage is that you can't cycle the damper easily by just pushing the rod up and down. Instead you need to compress the entire fork, but at least you can do it without losing most of the oil afterward.


I still don't get this. I think I asked before; if someone explained, I guess I missed it...

Why on earth would anyone not fill the damper first? Installing the lower legs isn't going to change your oil height measurement...only variable is the rebound rod, which is easy to verify is all the way extended. Also, it's obviously a lot easy to cycle that rod individually to ensure the damper is bled, as opposed to having to compress the whole fork.

More importantly, how in the hell do you guys even get the legs on? Do you hold the fork upright and work upside-down?

I could NOT get the threads on the damper rod to start without filling it first. It would just fall into the fork if you breathed on it.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Ignore sag. It is not the goal. Frequency is:
> 
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup
> 
> ...


With all due respect... That's a nice soundbite but really?

Your page doesn't even say to ignore sag. You suggest checking it last.

I completely agree that sag is not the end all, and we do care about suspension frequency, but it's far easier for a novice to determine sag than make a correct subjective assessment of their fork or shock.

The video I linked is easy to understand and well shot. Too well, perhaps - watching the suspension action while you're on the bike is not as easy as watching perfectly framed closeup shots of someone else on their bike.

And the title of the video overreaches a bit. Is your suspension dialed after setting only sag and rebound? No, unless that's the only adjustment you have. In the case of the mattoc and many other high end suspension... You are just getting started.

But those are the 2 things you start with, in that order - spring pressure and rebound rate.

The more slack your head tube, and if you ride extensively in the saddle rather than the attack position, the harder it is to get a meaningful measurement of sag for your fork.

If you had said that instead of "ignore sag" I would not have much cause to argue. But you can generally set sag easily for any shock which gets you to some kind of baseline for further tuning.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> With all due respect... That's a nice soundbite but really?
> 
> Your page doesn't even say to ignore sag. You suggest checking it last.
> 
> ...


Sag only matters for geometry. You check it last in frequency method as air spring volume is used to correct ride height for the same frequency.

If you set a bike by sag only you'll get the wrong result. Every time. It usually produces a rocking horse.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Sag only matters for geometry. You check it last in frequency method as air spring volume is used to correct ride height for the same frequency.
> 
> If you set a bike by sag only you'll get the wrong result. Every time. It usually produces a rocking horse.


Doubling down, eh?

I'm not sure I saw a rocking horse in that video, granted, we aren't seeing the bike in action on a trail but his bounce test doesn't look unbalanced.

If sag were useless no one would have it printed on stanchions or frames. If feel alone were sufficient for everyone, we wouldn't be discussing tuning methods.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ColinL said:


> Doubling down, eh?


Call it whatever you like. This is the method I've been using for years and it beats sag every time.

Sag is the worst way to set pressures.



ColinL said:


> If sag were useless no one would have it printed on stanchions or frames.


Eh? Useless garbage is printed all over forks and frames all the time.


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Ignore sag. It is not the goal. Frequency is:
> 
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/suspension-setup
> 
> ...


I've seen this, but I don't trust myself to figure out frequency without more clarification 

What is the big happy place? Is that a metaphor or is it something in our bodies lol


----------



## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Sag rate gets printed on forks and shocks because it's a lot easier to work out than 
*f = 1/(2π)√(K/M)*

f = Natural frequency (Hz)
K = Spring rate (N/m)
M = Mass (kg)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> I've seen this, but I don't trust myself to figure out frequency without more clarification
> 
> What is the big happy place? Is that a metaphor or is it something in our bodies lol


Go try it. It's very easy.



twodogsfighting said:


> Sag rate gets printed on forks and shocks because it's a lot easier to work out than
> *f = 1/(2π)√(K/M)*
> 
> f = Natural frequency (Hz)
> ...


We have built-in accelerometers. Natural frequencies which correspond to our walking and running motion feel the best.

The other most important part which frequency method delivers easily. Is front/rear balance.

Sag is never going to give you a good result and cannot acheive front/rear balance.


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Dougal said:


> The lower leg bath oil spec is 7cc per side. I use 10cc and that's working out fine.
> 
> The 15cc is a mis-print.


Arrrrr. Thanks for noticing. Who leaves a misprint in an online manual? I assume I can just unscrew and pull out the lowers slightly and 'bleed' them a little? Or does that mess up the damper?


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

phuchmileif said:


> I still don't get this. I think I asked before; if someone explained, I guess I missed it...
> 
> Why on earth would anyone not fill the damper first? Installing the lower legs isn't going to change your oil height measurement...only variable is the rebound rod, which is easy to verify is all the way extended. Also, it's obviously a lot easy to cycle that rod individually to ensure the damper is bled, as opposed to having to compress the whole fork.


I was also wondering why you can't set the oil height and reinstall the damper before installing the lowers. But right there in the service manual:
_
1. oil height is set with compression damper
removed.
2. oil height is set with fork fully extended
and casting installed._

I surmised that is is because when you fully extend the fork the rebound rod is _not _fully extended which would effect the oil height. Even if you measured the extension of the rod and extended it to that length, when you installed the compression damper you would force the rod downward, changing the air volume over the oil.



> More importantly, how in the hell do you guys even get the legs on? Do you hold the fork upright and work upside-down?
> 
> I could NOT get the threads on the damper rod to start without filling it first. It would just fall into the fork if you breathed on it.


I found I could insert the hex wrench to help line it up, then push the lowers up while turning the wrench to engage the threads. It helps to remove the air from the spring side to make it easy to push the lowers up.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> Arrrrr. Thanks for noticing. Who leaves a misprint in an online manual? I assume I can just unscrew and pull out the lowers slightly and 'bleed' them a little? Or does that mess up the damper?


I wouldn't bother changing it. It'll just be a little harder to get full compression. Drop the volume at the next lower leg service.



Desertride said:


> I was also wondering why you can't set the oil height and reinstall the damper before installing the lowers. But right there in the service manual:
> _
> 1. oil height is set with compression damper
> removed.
> ...


The difference in oil height between the lower legs installed and the shaft at max extension is so minor it doesn't matter. As long as you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. You're good.


----------



## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Dougal said:


> The difference in oil height between the lower legs installed and the shaft at max extension is so minor it doesn't matter. As long as you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. You're good.


So you recommend putting in the damper oil, cycling the rod, to remove air, then setting the oil height and reinstalling the damper assembly before reinstalling the lowers? That would make things so much easier.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> So you recommend putting in the damper oil, cycling the rod, to remove air, then setting the oil height and reinstalling the damper assembly before reinstalling the lowers? That would make things so much easier.


Yes and it's soo much easier.

When you have the lowers off (for maintenance) a simple push on the damper rod to full depth will let you know if that's good.


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

So Dougal. What spring frequency have you found works best? I haven't seen you give an answer before. You seem to just refer people to your website.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

KoolGrandWizardLuke said:


> So Dougal. What spring frequency have you found works best? I haven't seen you give an answer before. You seem to just refer people to your website.


The frequency you want becomes obvious and depends on your expectations. Harder chargers want higher frequency and more relaxed riders want lower.

If you want numbers. 0.8-2 Hz.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Something that I think would be interesting to add to this thread or another one might be peoples settings for much easier initial starting points for people.


Rider Weight : 72kg (159lbs) without any gear.
Bike : giant trance 2017
Version: pro 3 boost 2018
Trave: 160mm
Main Pressure : 60
IRT Pressure : 90
LSC : lowest
HSC : one click from full open
Rebound : 3-4 clicks from full open

I am still dialing it in. I love the linearity of this forks air spring with IRT! I can bump the main presure up and still use all travel on bigger hits. And those rare occasions that would produce bottom out are taken care of HBO.

Tokens and excessive progressivity are so last year!


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

s-master said:


> Rider Weight : 72kg (159lbs) without any gear.
> Bike : giant trance 2017
> Version: pro 3 boost 2018
> Trave: 160mm
> ...


HOW sensitive is the pro 3 boost? Can you feel much stiction, when pressing on the fork? Have you tested a new Lyrik or so and can compare?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> HOW sensitive is the pro 3 boost? Can you feel much stiction, when pressing on the fork? Have you tested a new Lyrik or so and can compare?


You should not feel stiction. If you do the bushings need sized.


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ashwinearl said:


> What travel are you setting it at? For your reference ,I am 140 lbs running 140mm with IRT.
> 
> My settings are around 30 to 35 main air, 50 to 55 IRT, two clicks rebound, HBO open or +1, LSC +2 to +4
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Took it out for the first time today. I am at 160mm. I ran it at 40psi (based on what the chart from Manitou says and also measured sag ...)

It felt harsh. Really harsh. I went to a local trail that isn't gnarly. Just testing it over embedded rocks, roots, etc. I have a new fork and shock and have never set suspension by myself before.

Riding over a root felt like when a boat hits a wave or a wake? Front end goes up and down, and then back end goes up and down (shock is a Mcleod). Thinking pressure is too high for both.

If you are running at 30-35 at 140mm, perhaps I need to be even lower, at 160mm? Is that possible? I'm not running IRT, does IRT allow the main pressure to be ran differently or is it the same?


----------



## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

*Loving my new Mattoc Pro*

Just got a Mattoc Pro 2 with IRT installed on my 2018 Trek Fuel EX8. I weigh 175 lbs and set main spring at 80 psi, IRt at 110 psi. HSC, HBO and Rebound all at middle setting. I am loving this Fork and recommend it to any and all who want one of the best, highly adjustable, predictable Forks for trail or enduro. This is way under rated and known and should be considered anytime over Fox, RS, DVO etc.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

jdang307 said:


> Took it out for the first time today. I am at 160mm. I ran it at 40psi (based on what the chart from Manitou says and also measured sag ...)
> 
> It felt harsh. Really harsh. I went to a local trail that isn't gnarly. Just testing it over embedded rocks, roots, etc. I have a new fork and shock and have never set suspension by myself before.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you can go much lighter on the air springs. What's the fork leg say for 140 pounds?

You could be overdamped. What are your settings for HBO, lsc and hsc?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ColinL said:


> I'm not sure you can go much lighter on the air springs. What's the fork leg say for 140 pounds?
> 
> You could be overdamped. What are your settings for HBO, lsc and hsc?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


42. But I goofed. Damn I have to say, as a neophyte Manitou's manual isn't always so clear. I think I messed up my rebound damping. Pike had a turtle and a rabbit. So easy. I thought the negative sign was ... the turtle. I think it's the hare/rabbit right? and the plus sign is full damping and slow rebound ...


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> 42. But I goofed. Damn I have to say, as a neophyte Manitou's manual isn't always so clear. I think I messed up my rebound damping. Pike had a turtle and a rabbit. So easy. I thought the negative sign was ... the turtle. I think it's the hare/rabbit right? and the plus sign is full damping and slow rebound ...


Turn the rebound knob all the way out. That's fast. All the way in is slow.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Yeah I figured it out. So simple. One side is super fast rebound, and the other side is super slow. 

Turns out, according to Dougal's test, I didn't need that much damping. Going to try 3 clicks from open tomorrow at a rougher trail.


----------



## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> Yeah I figured it out. So simple. One side is super fast rebound, and the other side is super slow.
> 
> Turns out, according to Dougal's test, I didn't need that much damping. Going to try 3 clicks from open tomorrow at a rougher trail.


also set your compression damping knobs to full open as well (HSC, LSC and HBO) to start.

You can likely run less pressure in the fork. After my last ride Im running 40 in the main and 70 in the IRT. I weigh 235 or so geared up... 150mm travel.

BUT, test out different pressures and see what you like.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Ok, the settings and comments are giving me perspective on my Mattoc setup.
As I posted recently, I've been running IRT low 30psi, main low 20psi, but only using ~130 out of 150mm max travel, and it's harsh at speed. LSC, HSC, HBO and Rebound all the way out, riding weight ~160lbs. The fork feels supple at lower speeds but if I use any LSC it's harsh on the rough stuff, so does it sound like too much HSC? 

Dougal, if I understand your upgrade, it's a higher flow *rebound* piston, and not modifying the compression damper?

I've got a gen 1 Expert, so what are my options, aside from buying a Pro2 damper? Is it worth re-shimming the HSC stack?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Dougal, if I understand your upgrade, it's a higher flow *rebound* piston, and not modifying the compression damper?


The rebound piston serves two damping functions. Rebound damping and compression mid-valve. It is the mid-valve that is high-flow.

This alters the damping curves, especially at high shaft speeds.



fsrxc said:


> I've got a gen 1 Expert, so what are my options, aside from buying a Pro2 damper? Is it worth re-shimming the HSC stack?


The Pro damper is better than the Expert at high shaft speeds because the rod is a bigger proportion so oil flow through the piston is lower. The Pro is better again with my piston upgrade.

Check which shim stack you have in your compression damper.


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> The rebound piston serves two damping functions. Rebound damping and compression mid-valve. It is the mid-valve that is high-flow.
> 
> This alters the damping curves, especially at high shaft speeds.
> 
> ...


Shims are 21mm diameter, so you mean thickness?
Anything to watch for when the end bolt is removed?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Shims are 21mm diameter, so you mean thickness?
> Anything to watch for when the end bolt is removed?


there are two layers of shims in a MC^2 damper. Lower fixed shims and upper which are preloaded by the HSC dial.

Just make sure the whole shaft doesn't unscrew from the top-cap. You may need to hold the shaft with a wrench, it has flats for that.
If the shaft comes out the top-cap you've got to reassemble it the long way around.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> there are two layers of shims in a MC^2 damper. Lower fixed shims and upper which are preloaded by the HSC dial.
> 
> Just make sure the whole shaft doesn't unscrew from the top-cap. You may need to hold the shaft with a wrench, it has flats for that.
> If the shaft comes out the top-cap you've got to reassemble it the long way around.


Is your improved piston a better rebound piston or the compression piston and what did you change?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Is your improved piston a better rebound piston or the compression piston and what did you change?





Dougal said:


> The rebound piston serves two damping functions. Rebound damping and compression mid-valve. It is the mid-valve that is now high-flow.
> 
> This alters the damping curves, especially at high shaft speeds.


See above.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Need help diagnosing an issue. Backstory: Fork has been riding like garbage, like a jackhammer, can hold onto the bike. Turns out the damper became pressurized, no big deal. Change out fluid. Could I just have cracked the damper open to release the pressure?

Since I had the fork open, I guess I got curious and disassemble the cartridge rebound damper assembly. All looks good, reassemble. Put damper back together. Now, when I cycle the damper, there is an audible noise and feel when the HBO enters the compression damper assemble. Wasnt there before. Disassemble....looks like the HBO is off-center a bit within the rebound damper assembly. Somehow something got bent...disassemble, nothing looks perceptibly bent. 

I am wondering if maybe the threaded nipple (dont know what its called) that the HBO plunger threads onto is bent possibly? Any ideas/suggestions/tips? THanks


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I can't answer hardly any of that, except for the damper pressurization.

Yes, you can leave the fork fully installed on the bike, put it on a workstand with the fork totally vertical and remove the damper cover. While you have it open, check the damper oil height.

You can't do this on the ground because the fork isn't level and it will sag.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

R_Pierce said:


> also set your compression damping knobs to full open as well (HSC, LSC and HBO) to start.
> 
> You can likely run less pressure in the fork. After my last ride Im running 40 in the main and 70 in the IRT. I weigh 235 or so geared up... 150mm travel.
> 
> BUT, test out different pressures and see what you like.


Ok it ran better for sure. Pressure was only slightly lower at 38, 3 clicks of rebound damping added. I noticed my front fork didn't dive at all when coming down a rock onto flat (no jump, so slow speed going over obstacles and 3-4 foot sized rocks onto flats or downhill). High speed chatter was improved.Low speed over small rocks and roots were better. Moderate speed over those same rocks,especially square hits, still rocked me up a little though. Gotta figure out how to play around with settings.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LaXCarp said:


> Need help diagnosing an issue. Backstory: Fork has been riding like garbage, like a jackhammer, can hold onto the bike. Turns out the damper became pressurized, no big deal. Change out fluid. Could I just have cracked the damper open to release the pressure?
> 
> Since I had the fork open, I guess I got curious and disassemble the cartridge rebound damper assembly. All looks good, reassemble. Put damper back together. Now, when I cycle the damper, there is an audible noise and feel when the HBO enters the compression damper assemble. Wasnt there before. Disassemble....looks like the HBO is off-center a bit within the rebound damper assembly. Somehow something got bent...disassemble, nothing looks perceptibly bent.
> 
> I am wondering if maybe the threaded nipple (dont know what its called) that the HBO plunger threads onto is bent possibly? Any ideas/suggestions/tips? THanks


You will always be able to feel the HBO engage. It is close fitting metal parts.

Foaming is from air coming in via the lower shaft seal on fast hits. I replace those 10x15x4mm lip seals with 10x3mm metric orings. That greatly reduces the foaming and my high flow pistons in combination stop it completely.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> there are two layers of shims in a MC^2 damper. Lower fixed shims and upper which are preloaded by the HSC dial.
> 
> Just make sure the whole shaft doesn't unscrew from the top-cap. You may need to hold the shaft with a wrench, it has flats for that.
> If the shaft comes out the top-cap you've got to reassemble it the long way around.


Below the piston the bottom nut holds on a spring and check-shim? (25x10x0.16mm) with a small spring inside below a ball bearing.
On top of the piston (1 each):
17.5x8x0.1mm (face shim?)
11x8x0.25mm
21x10x0.21mm (I assume this is the preloaded shim)
12x10x0.21mm
I don't know what the parts above the shim are called, there's a shuttle-like thing with a couple ball bearings (I assume preload assembly), then a large shim just below the foam "plug".
Do you have (or know where I can access) an expanded diagram that shows all the parts, with names?

The face shim is only 0.1mm thick, so is the 21mm shim causing my spiking? The compression holes in the piston are pretty small...


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Below the piston the bottom nut holds on a spring and check-shim? (25x10x0.16mm) with a small spring inside below a ball bearing.
> On top of the piston (1 each):
> 17.5x8x0.1mm (face shim?)
> 11x8x0.25mm
> ...


Take out the 12x10x0.2mm.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> See above.


1.Do you sell the piston incl. The fitting shimstack or do I have to use the old stack? 
2.How much is the piston incl. Shipping to Germany?
3.which shim of the original shimstack of the mattoc 2 do I have to remove from the compression piston to soften mid to large sized high speed events?
4.if I would buy a mattoc 3 boost, could I still use your reboundpiston there?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> 1.Do you sell the piston incl. The fitting shimstack or do I have to use the old stack?
> 2.How much is the piston incl. Shipping to Germany?
> 3.which shim of the original shimstack of the mattoc 2 do I have to remove from the compression piston to soften mid to large sized high speed events?
> 4.if I would buy a mattoc 3 boost, could I still use your reboundpiston there?


1. The piston works with your existing shim stack.
2. The piston is $NZD125 less GST for export. At todays exchange that would be ~ 63 Euro plus post. The webstore will calculate shipping for you in the cart before you get to payment.
3. There were various combinations of shim stack. I am running the one with just a single shim on the top. I'm not sure right now what Mattoc 2 came with. Maybe similar to FSR-XC above.
4. Absolutely. It fits all Pro level Mattoc/Magnum/Mastodon/Machete etc.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> See above.





Dougal said:


> 1. The piston works with your existing shim stack.
> 2. The piston is $NZD125 less GST for export. At todays exchange that would be ~ 63 Euro plus post. The webstore will calculate shipping for you in the cart before you get to payment.
> 3. There were various combinations of shim stack. I am running the one with just a single shim on the top. I'm not sure right now what Mattoc 2 came with. Maybe similar to FSR-XC above.
> 4. Absolutely. It fits all Pro level Mattoc/Magnum/Mastodon/Machete etc.


Do you know if the upcoming 29er LT fork does already have an improved rebound piston or would it still show performance benefits to transduce this piston from the mattoc to the new fork when I change over to 29?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Do you know if the upcoming 29er LT fork does already have an improved rebound piston or would it still show performance benefits to transduce this piston from the mattoc to the new fork when I change over to 29?


I'm not sure what new fork you are referring to, but dont expect the stock piston to to change.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Do you know if the upcoming 29er LT fork does already have an improved rebound piston or would it still show performance benefits to transduce this piston from the mattoc to the new fork when I change over to 29?


Er, LT 29er? What you talking about willis?


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> I'm not sure what new fork you are referring to, but dont expect the stock piston to to change.


Of course there will be a 29er LT fork. That is the most Logic thing. They have great technology already good Enduro fork... And if they did not, they would be the only company without one. Even dt and x fusion finally have one. I am certain as death is a part of live there is something in the works ;-)


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## inonjoey (Jul 19, 2011)

Vespasianus said:


> Er, LT 29er? What you talking about willis?


If Manitou had a 160mm 29er fork I would be riding Manitou on my upcoming build. Instead, I had to go with a Fox 36 and am planning on dropping an Avalanche damper in it. Get on it, Manitou!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Of course there will be a 29er LT fork. That is the most Logic thing. They have great technology already good Enduro fork... And if they did not, they would be the only company without one. Even dt and x fusion finally have one. I am certain as death is a part of live there is something in the works ;-)


I will only say this: if you are trying to build something anytime soon, buy something else.


----------



## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> I will only say this: if you are trying to build something anytime soon, buy something else.


That is really sad. Hope at least, it will be great, when it comes out.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Is it somehow possible to enlarge the negative spring for better initial movement and a better spring curve to get it more coil like even without irt?


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Does the mattoc negative spring actually use the volume inside the rod as Rock shox debon air does? If no, then this should be a possibility, isnt it?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Do you know if the upcoming 29er LT fork does already have an improved rebound piston or would it still show performance benefits to transduce this piston from the mattoc to the new fork when I change over to 29?


I don't know and if I did know I wouldn't be able to say anything.



inonjoey said:


> If Manitou had a 160mm 29er fork I would be riding Manitou on my upcoming build. Instead, I had to go with a Fox 36 and am planning on dropping an Avalanche damper in it. Get on it, Manitou!


You can get 150mm from a Mattoc 29 Boost. I know it's not 160mm, but it's close.



bansaiman said:


> Is it somehow possible to enlarge the negative spring for better initial movement and a better spring curve to get it more coil like even without irt?


IRT is the ticket. Single chamber air is always a compromise even with big negative volume.



bansaiman said:


> Does the mattoc negative spring actually use the volume inside the rod as Rock shox debon air does? If no, then this should be a possibility, isnt it?


No it doesn't and it can't because the valve which sets pos/neg chamber pressure is at the top of the rod just below the piston.

The Mattoc stanchions (and air chambers) are however 40mm longer than the Pike. I experimented a little with bigger negative (spacing the piston higher) but ultimately IRT does better than the results I had there. It did take me a while to find good IRT settings. I hated the original 40/80psi but at 40/60psi I've been very happy.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I tried to enlarge mattoc negative chamber. Its impossible cuz stanchion is tapered and mattoc pro 2 at 160mm at full bottom out almost touch the taper or you have to produce something like luftkappe. IMO mattoc spring curve is somehow digressive. Stiffer at the beggining and then flat as fcuk. IRT doesnt helped. If somebody rides bigger stuff its too easy to bottom even with maxed HBO. So you bottoms or have too stiff initial spring. I also have Pike RCT3 160mm with luftkappe (also charger midvalve float increased) and initial stroke is coil like. Why mattoc cant have the same initial feeling? I know this question have no answer


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

nikon255 said:


> I tried to enlarge mattoc negative chamber. Its impossible cuz stanchion is tapered and mattoc pro 2 at 160mm at full bottom out almost touch the taper or you have to produce something like luftkappe. IMO mattoc spring curve is somehow digressive. Stiffer at the beggining and then flat as fcuk. IRT doesnt helped. If somebody rides bigger stuff its too easy to bottom even with maxed HBO. So you bottoms or have too stiff initial spring. I also have Pike RCT3 160mm with luftkappe (also charger midvalve float increased) and initial stroke is coil like. Why mattoc cant have the same initial feeling? I know this question have no answer


Honestly, if you can't use the IRT or HBO to limit bottom out, you have some problem.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> I tried to enlarge mattoc negative chamber. Its impossible cuz stanchion is tapered and mattoc pro 2 at 160mm at full bottom out almost touch the taper or you have to produce something like luftkappe. IMO mattoc spring curve is somehow digressive. Stiffer at the beggining and then flat as fcuk. IRT doesnt helped. If somebody rides bigger stuff its too easy to bottom even with maxed HBO. So you bottoms or have too stiff initial spring. I also have Pike RCT3 160mm with luftkappe (also charger midvalve float increased) and initial stroke is coil like. Why mattoc cant have the same initial feeling? I know this question have no answer


The way the HBO system works, it will not limit the total travel used. It works solely on shaft speed. Once it slows the shaft speeds down to the point you have it set it, it becomes ineffective and allies you to use full travel. What it does is nake you give the rubber bottom out bumper a kiss rather than slam into.

As for IRT, there is not many spring curves it cant achieve. Not only can you mess with pressures and gaps between the two pressures, but you can also mess with each chambers volume to fine tune how they interact with each other. That's for people looking to fine tune only, most won't need it.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

My mattoc ended up with coil spring inside. Proper ratio between initual supplenes and overal stiffnes. Nothing to complaint about the damper. Unfortunately its air spring didnt make me happy.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

My new mattoc is AMAZING, the best fork i ever owned and i have a diamond too.
I have IRT and new seals, just came back from 2 days in bike Park and i still can't believe how good it is at absorbing big hits.

Only thing i don't really like is the first 1-2 cm in travel, it seems to sit at the sag suddenly when i go on the bike and it doesn't it progressively but rather suddenly, like there is gap to fill.
Maybe i need to raise main chamber pressure? I am 80 kg and i have 50 PSI main 85 PSI IRT.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Connect pump and strech fork. May it should equalize.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

After doing the 27.5 to 26 conversion and reduce travel to 140 I was about to install the crown race today and noticed that the stanchions looked suspiciously short. Sure enough they measure 130 fully extended.

What did I do wrong now?


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

nikon255 said:


> Connect pump and strech fork. May it should equalize.


Yes i did, it has full travel without weight, it's just the first 1 cm that isn't smooth off the top.


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Desertride said:


> After doing the 27.5 to 26 conversion and reduce travel to 140 I was about to install the crown race today and noticed that the stanchions looked suspiciously short. Sure enough they measure 130 fully extended.
> 
> What did I do wrong now?


Try what nikon suggested above (except he wasn't directing that at your issue). The positive and negative chambers equalize when the shock pump is threaded on. If you pumped air in and removed the pump while the fork wasn't fully extended it'll stay that way. May not be the answer, but would be the easiest thing to check.


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## JillRide45 (Dec 11, 2015)

I am trying to figure out if any of the Manitou Forks will work for me, any help much appreciated. 

Currently running a 2016 Fox Fit4 34 150mm 27.5+ (boost). 

Will the Mattocs or Magnum work, any way to adjust travel to 150? I see that some places have last years Magnum listed at 120mm do these adjust out to 140mm (maybe 150?)? Thanks for the help. Trying to figure out my options before sending in my Fox Fork for a tuning, I hate having to pay $300 to get someone to change out a shim and add some lighter weight oil.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Desertride said:


> After doing the 27.5 to 26 conversion and reduce travel to 140 I was about to install the crown race today and noticed that the stanchions looked suspiciously short. Sure enough they measure 130 fully extended.
> 
> What did I do wrong now?


Did you leave the plastic spacers on the bottom of the air or damper shaft?
I believe the diagram says to remove those for 26"

See:
Manitou Mattoc - Page 19- Mtbr.com


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

acedeuce802 said:


> Try what nikon suggested above (except he wasn't directing that at your issue). The positive and negative chambers equalize when the shock pump is threaded on. If you pumped air in and removed the pump while the fork wasn't fully extended it'll stay that way. May not be the answer, but would be the easiest thing to check.


Thanks! This is my first dual air fork...still climbing the learning curve.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

I was doing the full, 1 year maintenance on my Mattoc 2 Pro and I noticed something odd- the rebound damper doesn't have a wider portion with a seal at the top (left side of the image) of it like every picture of the Mattoc damper I've seen so far. None of the pictures in all the different service guides look like my rebound damper.

The damper has always worked great, just wondered if anyone knows why mine looks different? It even has threading at the top of it, but nothing is threaded to it, of course.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> I was doing the full, 1 year maintenance on my Mattoc 2 Pro and I noticed something odd- the rebound damper doesn't have a wider portion with a seal at the top (left side of the image) of it like every picture of the Mattoc damper I've seen so far. None of the pictures in all the different service guides look like my rebound damper.
> 
> The damper has always worked great, just wondered if anyone knows why mine looks different? It even has threading at the top of it, but nothing is threaded to it, of course.
> 
> View attachment 1211182


So no top flange stuck in the damper stanchion?

Without it you'll just be carrying more oil volume. But it's a wierd omission.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> So no top flange stuck in the damper stanchion?
> 
> Without it you'll just be carrying more oil volume. But it's a wierd omission.


I didn't get a photo of the inside of the stanchion but there is a shelf in there similar to the air Spring side of a MARS air spring like in my Manitou minute pro Fork. I thought it might be that top flange as well so I pushed down on it with a dowel and it wasn't moving at all. Pretty sure it was glued or welded or whatever into the inside of the stanchion. I guess it's possible that there is a top flange that had come loose and is sitting just under that little shelf but it looked to just be one piece.

As far as I could tell there wasn't a bunch of extra damper oil around the outside of the rebound assembly because nothing came out when I pulled the assembly out of the stanchion. And then when refilling the oil it definitely didn't seem like it took a ton of oil, only the amount that would be required to fill up the inside of the rebound damper.

I guess it's time to email Manitou!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> I didn't get a photo of the inside of the stanchion but there is a shelf in there similar to the air Spring side of a MARS air spring like in my Manitou minute pro Fork. I thought it might be that top flange as well so I pushed down on it with a dowel and it wasn't moving at all. Pretty sure it was glued or welded or whatever into the inside of the stanchion. I guess it's possible that there is a top flange that had come loose and is sitting just under that little shelf but it looked to just be one piece.
> 
> As far as I could tell there wasn't a bunch of extra damper oil around the outside of the rebound assembly because nothing came out when I pulled the assembly out of the stanchion. And then when refilling the oil it definitely didn't seem like it took a ton of oil, only the amount that would be required to fill up the inside of the rebound damper.
> 
> I guess it's time to email Manitou!


That shelf is the unscrewed end of your rebound damper cartridge tube. Push it out the bottom and screw it back on.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> That shelf is the unscrewed end of your rebound damper cartridge tube. Push it out the bottom and screw it back on.


Dangit! I was afraid of damaging the shelf by pushing too hard on it, i guess I should have pushed harder, or at least posted this before I put the whole fork back together. Ugh.

I really appreciate the response, Dougal, you saved me from potentially damaging the fork.

Guess I'm riding my other bike tomorrow


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I don't know and if I did know I wouldn't be able to say anything.
> 
> You can get 150mm from a Mattoc 29 Boost. I know it's not 160mm, but it's close.
> 
> ...


OK,

1.how do I get the 150mm travel out of it?

2.why not add the larger negative air to the irt instead of one or the other?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> OK,
> 
> 1.how do I get the 150mm travel out of it?
> 
> 2.why not add the larger negative air to the irt instead of one or the other?


1. Top out bumper modification. It's not supported by Manitou but it does work and is safe.
2. ? IRT is in the positive space where the stanchion tapers to a smaller ID. You can't use that for negative.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> 1. Top out bumper modification. It's not supported by Manitou but it does work and is safe.
> 2. ? IRT is in the positive space where the stanchion tapers to a smaller ID. You can't use that for negative.


Sorry not TO, I meant AND the irt


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> 1. Top out bumper modification. It's not supported by Manitou but it does work and is safe.
> 2. ? IRT is in the positive space where the stanchion tapers to a smaller ID. You can't use that for negative.


OK, than for final decision a question referring to stiffness if I would adjust it to 150mm of travel. 
I own a mattoc pro 2,thus non boost, and an x fusion metric with 36mm stanchions. I weigh around 87 kilos as God created meso I have one of the really flex forks and the stiffest single crown fork that is in the market in the moment. The regular mattoc is too flexy for my liking. The massive stiffness of the Metric hlr is not really needed. A tiny but more comfort would be OK. 
I suppose it is much stiffer than the regular mattoc as it has more flesh on the bridge and the crown.

So how stiff is the mattoc pro 27.5+/29 150 in comparison to a pike or Lyrik boost, to which one is it similar?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Mine showed up last night! It's a good looking fork. 

It's incredibly smooth right out of the box.


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

Hi guys, my apologies as i am sure this has been done to death. I have just ordered a set of non boost Mattoc pro 2 forks. I had a set of MRP stages before which were awesome but i killed them at Fort William. Before i install them i want to drop the lowers to make sure they have enough oil plus the check the damper for the same. I have read on here that 5w40 synthetic is the bath oil?? but i cant find the correct oil for the damper. I live in the uk if that makes any difference. Also if anyone has the part number for the low friction seals i would be much obliged. 

Thanks all


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Looks like it's calling for maxima 5wt, which is rated 15.9 [email protected]

You can use any fork damper oil rated around 15, which is extremely common these days. Any decent bike shop will have an appropriate fluid. 

Fox gold works well instead of 5w40, or just use the maxima 5w40. Or supergliss if you can find it.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Also, got my first ride in!

This thing is shockingly well damped in compression. It's easy to setup and just so, so good. I have an expert, and need to work on setting rebound. HSR doesn't feel great. Worst case, it looks like the pro used a different rebound assembly that swaps in and works better?

The spring is insanely good. I don't even have IRT. I tried 70psi and it was too firm, but it still felt incredible. 65 or maybe 60psi is probably where I'll end up, as I used about 100mm out of 160.

My mattoc at 160 isn't as stiff as my sweep at 140, but that's getting silly and nitpicking.


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## Trailhwk17 (Jun 21, 2018)

Yep this Fork is so good and I hope Manitou can find a way to reach more so they wil consider this when bike owners upgrade or a bike mfr. offers it for options instead of the two big names. I switched from a Fox Rythm and glad I didn’t waste time or money upgrading to a more expensive Fox or RS fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mactheknife said:


> Hi guys, my apologies as i am sure this has been done to death. I have just ordered a set of non boost Mattoc pro 2 forks. I had a set of MRP stages before which were awesome but i killed them at Fort William. Before i install them i want to drop the lowers to make sure they have enough oil plus the check the damper for the same. I have read on here that 5w40 synthetic is the bath oil?? but i cant find the correct oil for the damper. I live in the uk if that makes any difference. Also if anyone has the part number for the low friction seals i would be much obliged.
> 
> Thanks all


The Semibath is a 5W40 by another company that starts with M. There are many fluids that work, just not as well over such a wide temp range.
The Fully Synthetic we sell is a very close relation and we'll change to the actual semi-bath spec when our current stash is gone.
Motorex Supergliss is a better summer lube but gets thick enough to slow the fork down below 0°C.

Low friction seals are 141-34000: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html

Damper oil is 15 cSt. Stock is Maxima 5wt. We install Motorex 2.5wt for general use and a "hot oil pink" for those really thrashing them and/or riding in wide temperature ranges.


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

Cheers guys, sourced the lube from the UK. Dougal i just put an order in with yourself for those seals. Much appreciated. This thread is a goldmine of information.


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## wookiem (Mar 10, 2018)

Great thread here, a real gold mine of info, credit to you all.

I'm a new owner, bought the mattoc pro 2 when crc were doing them for £300, I just could not say no to that having read lots of glowing reviews.

I'd like to know how responsive your LSC control is? For me, one extreme to the other on the dial (5 clicks) and there is no notable difference. I'm compressing by letting all my weight go on the bars in a slowish action. 

Cheers


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

wookiem said:


> Great thread here, a real gold mine of info, credit to you all.
> 
> I'm a new owner, bought the mattoc pro 2 when crc were doing them for £300, I just could not say no to that having read lots of glowing reviews.
> 
> ...


The lsc range is set by the hsc. If the hsc is set full open, the lsc adjuster has only a small effect on the overall damping and it will only be noticable on the trail, and only if you are sensitive to small changes. This is the case because the hsc shims are flowing oil easily and closing the small lsc port has a minimal effect on overall oil flow.

If you add hsc, therefore limiting the oil flow through the shim stack, the lsc adjuster becomes more noticeable and useful. This set up allows users to fine tune to their liking without the need to open up the fork.

This set up is superior to other brands because its designed for practical use, not the parking lot push test. Most brands tune their shim stacks to stiff and/or heavily preloaded to make the adjusters work well in the push test. When those products hit the trail, they perform poorly as they cant handle oil flow correctly on high shaft speed impacts.


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## wookiem (Mar 10, 2018)

mullen119 said:


> The lsc range is set by the hsc. If the hsc is set full open, the lsc adjuster has only a small effect on the overall damping and it will only be noticable on the trail, and only if you are sensitive to small changes. This is the case because the hsc shims are flowing oil easily and closing the small lsc port has a minimal effect on overall oil flow.
> 
> If you add hsc, therefore limiting the oil flow through the shim stack, the lsc adjuster becomes more noticeable and useful. This set up allows users to fine tune to their liking without the need to open up the fork.
> 
> This set up is superior to other brands because its designed for practical use, not the parking lot push test. Most brands tune their shim stacks to stiff and/or heavily preloaded to make the adjusters work well in the push test. When those products hit the trail, they perform poorly as they cant handle oil flow correctly on high shaft speed impacts.


Brilliant. Thanks Mullen, I'll go have a play


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

Installed the low friction seals. It made me go back to Dougal's frequency setup and rethink what I was doing. Ended up fixing my shock setup too.

Had the seals sitting here, but knew I had a trip coming up and was waiting to install until closer to the time. Did it a couple weeks ago and definitely noticed it was different than the typical fresh service feel. Prior to this I had been using IRT to control mid and bottom out exclusively, full open LSC/HSC. That still works, but with the new seals it feels like I can again use the HSC/LSC to control the mid, brake dive, etc. Between that and the IRT, holy hell, it's damn near all one can ask of a fork. Throw is the HBO and you have just short of a custom tuned fork.

Back to the shock. I switch between a DB IL an a an Ohlins TTX. Inline I have no issues with, it works, I can tune it to suit my needs. The TTX took me a year to wrap my head around, basically through my own stupidity. The builder set it up for me, the bike, riding style. Even came and tried a few different springs to get what I wanted. It was described as feeling like sofa..which it was. The only issue I had was pedal strikes from blowing through the mid (I think, still wrapping my head around what affects what and when in relation to HSC/LSC and when in the stroke). no bottoming, plush, rebound was good, but the mid wallowed and didn't support. This is on a Knolly Endorphin. Was told, and I have read several reports that LSC seems to not do much, and that was my finding as well. I really didn't even bother because changing it a few clicks this way or that didn't affect it. But after the Mattoc seal change and realizing how LSC affects HSC I decidied to go to town on LSC. The HSC is a set deal on the shock, with 3 settings so you are left with a rebound which you can defintely feel and a LSC which deems to do nothing, until you crank it far enough that it must choke or load the HSC enough that it can be felt. Within 2 clicks I had the mid support that was needed. Now there is a balance between F/R that I could only achieve with the DB IL, yet more plush off the top. No idea if the TTX runs a stack, needles, or how it works, but getting the mattoc even more plush yet supportive, and dialed made me search for how to get the coil to feel better. Evened opened the rebound a bit on both the Mattoc and TTX I think because the bike feels so balanced and controlled, it can be pushed harder/faster. I could be full of beans, but what I feel is what I feel, and what I feel is an awesome riding bike.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Take out the 12x10x0.2mm.


Thanks for that Dougal.
I took out the 12x10x0.2mm shim, and have done 3 rides on it. Initial impression is the harshness is reduced, I'm noticing less arm pump on the same descents as before.
But, not using any more travel - last ride (with plenty rocks and roots) only maxed at 125mm out of 150mm. Pressures currently at irt40/26psi.

Would it make sense to further soften the shim stack so it will use a bit more travel on big hits without going any lower on pressures? Better to go thinner on the face shim, or the preloaded shim? Currently min LSC/HSC/HBO, so I can always firm things up later.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

sherwin24 said:


> Back to the shock. I switch between a DB IL an a an Ohlins TTX. .


Sounds like me exact setup. Mattoc 170mm on the front, TTX on the back. I even have a dead CC DB Inline too I think!!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah yeah yeah... Here is the the LT 29 er fork, like I said

m.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-prototype-manitou-enduro-fork-and-sun-ringle-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html[/url]

Hope they kept at least a non adjustable HBO as in the mattoc comp


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

bansaiman said:


> Yeah yeah yeah... Here is the the LT 29 er fork, like I said
> 
> m.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-prototype-manitou-enduro-fork-and-sun-ringle-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html[/url]
> 
> Hope they kept at least a non adjustable HBO as in the mattoc comp


Came here to post this, bit concerned with the dials on top of the damper No HBO would be a let down as that feature is great. Also much better cable routing. Looking forward to some more details.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> Yeah yeah yeah... Here is the the LT 29 er fork, like I said
> 
> m.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-prototype-manitou-enduro-fork-and-sun-ringle-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html[/url]
> 
> Hope they kept at least a non adjustable HBO as in the mattoc comp


never said it didn't exist


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> Yeah yeah yeah... Here is the the LT 29 er fork, like I said
> 
> m.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-prototype-manitou-enduro-fork-and-sun-ringle-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html[/url]
> 
> Hope they kept at least a non adjustable HBO as in the mattoc comp


Cool. Here's the non mobile link:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spott...le-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html

Manitou won't leave out HBO. They're not silly.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> Thanks for that Dougal.
> I took out the 12x10x0.2mm shim, and have done 3 rides on it. Initial impression is the harshness is reduced, I'm noticing less arm pump on the same descents as before.
> But, not using any more travel - last ride (with plenty rocks and roots) only maxed at 125mm out of 150mm. Pressures currently at irt40/26psi.
> 
> Would it make sense to further soften the shim stack so it will use a bit more travel on big hits without going any lower on pressures? Better to go thinner on the face shim, or the preloaded shim? Currently min LSC/HSC/HBO, so I can always firm things up later.


I suspect you've got an overfilled or foamed up damper restricting travel.

Take the lower legs off and see if you can fully and easily compress the damper shaft.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Manitou won't leave out HBO. They're not silly.


I feel the need to point out the article is showing a comp level fork. VTT is a ABS+ replacement, not a MC2 replacement. The MC2 damper will live on in the Pro version forks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I feel the need to point out the article is showing a comp level fork. VTT is a ABS+ replacement, not a MC2 replacement. The MC2 damper will live on in the Pro version forks.


Careful. You'll cause someone to have a seizure!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Careful. You'll cause someone to have a seizure!


I didn't think we could talk about any of this stuff, next thing I know it's all over pink bike.....


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> Yeah yeah yeah... Here is the the LT 29 er fork, like I said
> 
> m.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-prototype-manitou-enduro-fork-and-sun-ringle-carbon-wheels-crankworx-whistler-2018.html[/url]
> 
> Hope they kept at least a non adjustable HBO as in the mattoc comp


Wow, great find. Looks like good updates to an already solid fork. I just hope they don't call it Travis!


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I suspect you've got an overfilled or foamed up damper restricting travel.
> 
> Take the lower legs off and see if you can fully and easily compress the damper shaft.


FYI a couple of weeks ago I checked the damper level and removed a little oil because it was a bit high (currently 80mm).
When I connect a pump to the main air valve I can pretty easily bottom the fork out, but if it's still worth removing the lowers to be sure, let me know.

Also, when I had the compression damper apart to remove the preload shim, there were two ball bearings that dropped out. One came from the inside of the end bolt on the small spring, but I was half guessing the other one came from a slot in the main shim body, which is why I was asking for a diagram if anyone has one. After putting it back together, the HSC dial only clicks in some, but not all positions, so I'm assuming that ball affects the detents and it may not be exactly where it needs to be.
Dougal do you know the Expert damper well enough to describe how to position the ball bearings when bolting it back together?

thanks.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Careful. You'll cause someone to have a seizure!


On Facebook manitou said to come to whistler and find their rider with the Slash to find out about the new stuff. Hopefully will not take long for complete tech data


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

bansaiman said:


> On Facebook manitou said to come to whistler and find their rider with the Slash to find out about the new stuff. Hopefully will not take long for complete tech data


Yeah and hopefully this will be the new "long travel" version of the Mattoc for 27.5+/29 wheels. Seems to me that they already have a "long travel" version of the Mattoc strictly for 27.5 wheels and with 29ers becoming a hot topic again, well logic.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Long story short version! Stuffed the rebound knob bolt on my Mattoc Expert and cannot get the old bolt out. . Still have the old 4 click adjuster is there any parts I can transfer to make this the 8 click version?

Looking at the two damper assemblies I cannot spot any differences?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Long story short version! Stuffed the rebound knob bolt on my Mattoc Expert and cannot get the old bolt out. . Still have the old 4 click adjuster is there any parts I can transfer to make this the 8 click version?
> 
> Looking at the two damper assemblies I cannot spot any differences?


Left hand drills are your best friend for removing rounded out cap screws.

Expert parts have been discontinued. The hot ticket is upgrading the damper to the Pro level:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Left hand drills are your best friend for removing rounded out cap screws.
> 
> Expert parts have been discontinued. The hot ticket is upgrading the damper to the Pro level:
> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html


Thanks Dougal, used an easy out but it snapped the bolt, so will just put old rebound assembly in. Do you know when you will get stock of the rebound knobs? Cannot find them anywhere currently.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shiny said:


> Thanks Dougal, used an easy out but it snapped the bolt, so will just put old rebound assembly in. Do you know when you will get stock of the rebound knobs? Cannot find them anywhere currently.


I used our last rebound knobs on a demo fork last week. I think we've got more coming in a shipment that's a week or 2 away.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I have spent the last few rides on a Mattoc 
Comp boost. I gotta say, the thing impressed me way more then I was expecting. It's the newer version with the Dorado air spring in place of the TS air in the older mattoc/magnum comps. 

The ABS+ damper stands up to the test of time, it's really good. I know everyone wants the Pro version, but if you are on a budget, the comp version is probably the best fork you can buy under $500 bucks. I was kinda blown away by it.

I'm probably going to buy one for my wife now


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I have spent the last few rides on a Mattoc
> Comp boost. I gotta say, the thing impressed me way more then I was expecting. It's the newer version with the Dorado air spring in place of the TS air in the older mattoc/magnum comps.
> 
> The ABS+ damper stands up to the test of time, it's really good. I know everyone wants the Pro version, but if you are on a budget, the comp version is probably the best fork you can buy under $500 bucks. I was kinda blown away by it.
> ...


The ABS+ can indeed do everything the MC^2 has done. It just forgoes adjustment of HBO and HSC.

The only real performance limitation IMO is the larger rebound piston can't move as fast without generating extra compression damping forces. This only really affects those riding choppy terrain at speed.

P.S. Hope your wife doesn't know the model hierarchy!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The ABS+ can indeed do everything the MC^2 has done. It just forgoes adjustment of HBO and HSC.
> 
> The only real performance limitation IMO is the larger rebound piston can't move as fast without generating extra compression damping forces. This only really affects those riding choppy terrain at speed.
> 
> P.S. Hope your wife doesn't know the model hierarchy!


She won't know what I dont tell her. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

1st world dillema's: get the pro dampers and high flow piston for 195euro or wait it out and bag some extra clearance under the arch in the process on a newer one.


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## mrback (Sep 25, 2004)

can anyone give some base settings on this fork? I went out for a first ride yesterday & found the small bump pretty much non existent. seemed better over big hits & jumps/drops.


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## wankel (Mar 7, 2004)

wankel said:


> I'm having the exact same issue on my mattoc pro 2. When I first got it I tried compressing it vertically off the bike and it seemed noticeabley smoother than the xfusion sweep it replaced. Now that it is on the bike however it is very notchy, like in the video.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


So I finally got around to troubleshooting this issue and it seems to be a stiction issue in the rebound assembly.

I took the lowers off and compressed the air spring by hand and it was smooth. Did the same to the damper side and felt the same notchy feeling I was experiencing while riding. So, I took out the rebound damper assembly and when I try and slide the rod back and forth there seems like an excessive amount of force required.

Manitou support says it just hasn't broken in yet, but I have been riding it most of the summer with no noticeable improvement.

Is there anything I can do to fix it? Is it normal?

Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

mrback said:


> can anyone give some base settings on this fork? I went out for a first ride yesterday & found the small bump pretty much non existent. seemed better over big hits & jumps/drops.


I found the air pressure recommendation on the fork sticker a little high for. Me personally. Maybe check your rebound as well, if it's closed (slow) it could feel a little harsh.
I have the IRT in mine. About 75-80kg think I have about 45psi with no IRT, and have been trying 45 and 90 with it in. NB my fork is 170mm, HSC 2, LSC 2 or 3 (from open) and rebound 2/3 from open.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mrback said:


> can anyone give some base settings on this fork? I went out for a first ride yesterday & found the small bump pretty much non existent. seemed better over big hits & jumps/drops.


The fork will take some time - 20 to 30 hours of saddle time to break in.

I find these pressures minus 5 to work well:

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/46-31067_Mattoc_Set-up_Guide.pdf

If you have IRT, I use this minus 10:

https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/46-32685_Mattoc_IRT.pdf


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

My Mattoc Pro (1st gen) suddenly started acting sticky today under light or no load. I last changed the fluids 450 miles ago, and the seals (new design) about 1,000 miles ago. Should I just change the seals and fluid, or do these symptoms usually mean something else?


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

Tried trawling through the threads but thought i would just ask. Fitted the Pro2 to the bike today. Very very impressed. I am finding the HSC dial very tight, i get 4 obvious clicks then it gets very tight. LSC has 4 clicks. Does that sound about right. Will the HSC loosen off??

Also i have ordered the IRT, did i read somewhere you increase that pressure before spring. 

Thanks again all


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

mactheknife said:


> Tried trawling through the threads but thought i would just ask. Fitted the Pro2 to the bike today. Very very impressed. I am finding the HSC dial very tight, i get 4 obvious clicks then it gets very tight. LSC has 4 clicks. Does that sound about right. Will the HSC loosen off??
> 
> Also i have ordered the IRT, did i read somewhere you increase that pressure before spring.
> 
> Thanks again all


That knob behavior sounds about like mine--it gets tight and ill-defined at the extremes. Mine has not loosened up over time.

Make sure to lube the shaft of the IRT in addition to the seal of the IRT piston. Pressurize IRT first because otherwise it will change the volume of the main chamber as you add air, increasing the main psi from what you just put in. There's no harm in doing it in the wrong order, it just would require re-checking/adjusting the main pressure, so it would create a 3-step process with a useless first step.


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

Hey phile, thanks for the reply. All the info i need. Now to get the Mattoc on some Scottish steep to see what all the fuss is about


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mactheknife said:


> Tried trawling through the threads but thought i would just ask. Fitted the Pro2 to the bike today. Very very impressed. I am finding the HSC dial very tight, i get 4 obvious clicks then it gets very tight. LSC has 4 clicks. Does that sound about right. Will the HSC loosen off??
> 
> Also i have ordered the IRT, did i read somewhere you increase that pressure before spring.
> 
> Thanks again all


HSC works by preloading the upper shim-stack. It gets very firm as it approaches the stops to prevent the shims being preloaded too far. This is completely normal.

As Phile said, make sure you grease the IRT shaft as well as outside of the piston. Slickoleum is the stuff.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

It seems most of us are using around 2 clicks anyway. My HSC is weird around the first and last click, but its consistent and never changes, so its easy to set.

I was sort of weirded out by the knobs when I was playing around with it in my backyard for the first time. Im not used to this type of adjustments.

Once you hit the trail, any worry about it will go away. The adjustments work better than anything Ive ever used, for adjusting actual trail feel.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> It seems most of us are using around 2 clicks anyway. My HSC is weird around the first and last click, but its consistent and never changes, so its easy to set.
> 
> I was sort of weirded out by the knobs when I was playing around with it in my backyard for the first time. Im not used to this type of adjustments.
> 
> Once you hit the trail, any worry about it will go away. The adjustments work better than anything Ive ever used, for adjusting actual trail feel.


The adjuster putting physical preload on a shim stack makes for a funky feeling adjuster for sure.

As far as I know, manitou is the only company that has this design. It works so well though that most people feel like you do and forget about it when they hit the trail.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> It works so well though that most people feel like you do and forget about it when they hit the trail.


Just like it's supposed to!

Imagine if your car needed the suspension reset for every uphill, downhill, slow bit and fast bit?


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> HSC works by preloading the upper shim-stack. It gets very firm as it approaches the stops to prevent the shims being preloaded too far. This is completely normal.
> 
> As Phile said, make sure you grease the IRT shaft as well as outside of the piston. Slickoleum is the stuff.


I didn't grease the IRT shaft, just the piston. What could happen without grease?? 
Manitou installation instructions didn't say to grease the shaft...


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

davideb87 said:


> I didn't grease the IRT shaft, just the piston. What could happen without grease??
> Manitou installation instructions didn't say to grease the shaft...


Out of the box (uninstalled), the piston on my IRT was very sticky/shuddery--I was alarmed. A little grease on the shaft made it buttery. On the bike, it seems like it would mostly add stiction--but it would wear quicker too. No idea whether either the stiction or wear would be significant.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

I disassembled my Mattoc tonight, and somehow created a strong vacuum, or highly pressurized negative air spring, or something--the fork really wants to be almost bottomed out. By forcing the fork to zero travel and depressing the valve core, I reduced the effect, but then when I connected a shock pump, the fork instantly retracted again. What the heck did I do wrong??


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

You have probably screwed the lowers with the fork compressed and now when you try to extend the fork you are creating a negative chamber/pressure on the lowers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

davideb87 said:


> I didn't grease the IRT shaft, just the piston. What could happen without grease??
> Manitou installation instructions didn't say to grease the shaft...


The seal wears out and vents your higher IRT pressure into the main chamber.

This only takes a few hours riding. It's not hard to fix if it happens, but it's better to be greased up.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> The seal wears out and vents your higher IRT pressure into the main chamber.
> 
> This only takes a few hours riding. It's not hard to fix if it happens, but it's better to be greased up.


Thanks


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

If anyone is interested in a cheap plastic mudguard that fits the Mattoc reverse arch, this $3 one from china seems to do the job (and goes with the color scheme:thumbsup. Some trimming required.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

davideb87 said:


> Thanks


Yes, and you will notice it quickly. The IRT system is great but does require more routine maintenance. I check my pressures every 3-4 months and lube the shaft heavily. Also, I have found the inner O-ring wears out faster than the larger outer O-ring. Easy change and cheap to replace.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> Yes, and you will notice it quickly. The IRT system is great but does require more routine maintenance. I check my pressures every 3-4 months and lube the shaft heavily. Also, I have found the inner O-ring wears out faster than the larger outer O-ring. Easy change and cheap to replace.


I lubricated it with prepM. The piston was relatively smooth without grease, not stuck by any means.
With grease it is a lot smoother.
Both orings seems fine.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

What issue does the IRT solve, anyway? I understand what its doing, but Im honestly not finding a deficiency in the stock dorado spring. This sounds like added maintenance and failure points. 

Is it targeted towards lighter riders?


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Not an issue that it's solving, it's just another tuning tool. It allows the ability to change the mid stroke and end stroke (similar to volume reducers, it just has a different effect). Also, the ability to adjust this on the fly. You have to discharge the air chamber to swap out volume reducers, where the IRT you just hook up a shock pump and adjust. If you are perfectly happy with the stock setup, then leave it as is. But you may find that with IRT you could drop the pressure a bit for better small bump compliance, and still have ample mid stroke support and bottom out resistance.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> What issue does the IRT solve, anyway? I understand what its doing, but Im honestly not finding a deficiency in the stock dorado spring. This sounds like added maintenance and failure points.
> 
> Is it targeted towards lighter riders?


The stock spring works very well but the IRT system can create a more progressive system with much better mid-stroke and even better small bump compliance.

Personally, I think it works great for heavier riders in that it allows for a really plush feel with solid mid and end stroke feel. Without it, us heavier guys tend to bump up the main spring air-pressure to get more mid-stroke - compromising initial plushness.

I do think a lot of the above can be obtained by the compression settings but the IRT just allows you to get the feel you want very simply.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Vespasianus said:


> Personally, I think it works great for heavier riders in that it allows for a really plush feel with solid mid and end stroke feel. Without it, us heavier guys tend to bump up the main spring air-pressure to get more mid-stroke - compromising initial plushness.


Exactly this. For years Ive been stuck having to choose the lesser evil of running too firm a spring, cranking the LSC till the fork doesn't budge, or running an ultra progressive air spring via oil or tokens. IRT finally gets my fork feeling plush over the small stuff without blowing through all the travel every time I'm mashing out of the seat.


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## wankel (Mar 7, 2004)

There seems to be a lot of stiction in my rebound assembly. Can anyone comment on what is considered normal?









Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Aglo said:


> You have probably screwed the lowers with the fork compressed and now when you try to extend the fork you are creating a negative chamber/pressure on the lowers.


Bingo--thanks a lot! Weird that I haven't stumbled onto that issue before--I guess I got overconfident this time and didn't follow the instructions.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> What issue does the IRT solve, anyway? I understand what its doing, but Im honestly not finding a deficiency in the stock dorado spring. This sounds like added maintenance and failure points.
> 
> Is it targeted towards lighter riders?


IRT solves the weak mid-stroke issue of air springs. While also giving you independent control over first vs second half of the stroke.


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

So had my first ride out yesterday on the Mattoc. Ill be completely honest i only bought it as a stop gap until i could get a hold of some MRP Ribbon coils. That may have changed though as i was pretty impressed with them out the box.

Where i ride is pretty full on, not much flow and lots of steep chunk. 

I have initially set them up to 20% sag. I am not a massive fan of using sag to gauge air spring pressure but i do think it gives you a good starting point. 
First run was with rebound set only. No HSC or LSC added. As expected felt a bit divey but composed.
2nd run i added 2 clicks (out of 5) HSC and 1 click of LSC. Seemed to be a bit more of what i was needing. I am awaiting the IRT to come through the door. As i said i did find them slightly divey but the terrain i ride would expose that very quickly. If the IRT does everything i think it does that will be solved. 

MRP might not be getting my cash just yet


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## gabgi (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi all. I have a Mattoc Pro since two months lowered to 140 mm with IVA. Since some time I can hear silent knocking on begining of the stroke, especially on small bumps. Fork is working excelent, all adjustement working. Pressure is about 60 psi, Rebound 3 Clicks from open, HSC 1 click from open, LSC 2 clicks from open ( after lasy trip in Mountain ).My weight around 93 kg ( around 205 lbs). Does anybody has/ have it and know what is the reason and how to solve it?


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Solved, nevermind.


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## roughride (Jan 11, 2011)

Evening all.
I one of the last pairs of mattoc Pro 2,s from crc at that bargain price sitting here
Can anyone tell me this.
Now i have 26" spicy to stick them on but what difference would it make if i kept them at 160mm in 27'5 form or put them in 26" mode at 160mm A to C is the same so does the 26" change over do anything else that i'm not seeing.
Cheers.


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

*2017 Minute pro 140mm 29 vs 2018 Mattoc comp 27.+/29 120mm*

Was wondering what the difference is between the two, I own the 2017 Minute pro 140mm 29 it has the firmness control nob on top and on the lower the rebound adjust with black stanchons, looking at the 2018 Mattoc comp 120mm 27.5+/29 it has the same nobs and nothing more. From what I can tell, other than boost spacing are they the same? Also does the 2018 Mattoc comp have the 2 internal reducers installed that limit travel to 120mm from 140mm?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

GNU_BLIND said:


> Was wondering what the difference is between the two, I own the 2017 Minute pro 140mm 29 it has the firmness control nob on top and on the lower the rebound adjust with black stanchons, looking at the 2018 Mattoc comp 120mm 27.5+/29 it has the same nobs and nothing more. From what I can tell, other than boost spacing are they the same? Also does the 2018 Mattoc comp have the 2 internal reducers installed that limit travel to 120mm from 140mm?


Mattoc comp has a stiffer 34mm chassis compared to a minute (32mm chassis). It also has a better air spring design (expert air which is the same design as Dorado air)
It also has a internal hydraulic bottom out system (your minute may as well depending on the year)

The 27.5+/29 version comes set at 120mm and will have 2 spacers installed that can be removed to extend to 140mm. Do not get one that comes stock at 100mm as it will not be able to be extended, only the 120mm version can be.


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> Mattoc comp has a stiffer 34mm chassis compared to a minute (32mm chassis). It also has a better air spring design (expert air which is the same design as Dorado air)
> It also has a internal hydraulic bottom out system (your minute may as well depending on the year)
> 
> The 27.5+/29 version comes set at 120mm and will have 2 spacers installed that can be removed to extend to 140mm. Do not get one that comes stock at 100mm as it will not be able to be extended, only the 120mm version can be.


Thanks for the info


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## wankel (Mar 7, 2004)

gabgi said:


> Hi all. I have a Mattoc Pro since two months lowered to 140 mm with IVA. Since some time I can hear silent knocking on begining of the stroke, especially on small bumps. Fork is working excelent, all adjustement working. Pressure is about 60 psi, Rebound 3 Clicks from open, HSC 1 click from open, LSC 2 clicks from open ( after lasy trip in Mountain ).My weight around 93 kg ( around 205 lbs). Does anybody has/ have it and know what is the reason and how to solve it?


I have the same issue and I think it is related to my sticky damper rod. It takes quite a bit of force to get it moving and once it breaks free it feels like a knock.

I'm told it will some day break-in and get better.

Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

wankel said:


> I have the same issue and I think it is related to my sticky damper rod. It takes quite a bit of force to get it moving and once it breaks free it feels like a knock.
> 
> I'm told it will some day break-in and get better.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk





gabgi said:


> Hi all. I have a Mattoc Pro since two months lowered to 140 mm with IVA. Since some time I can hear silent knocking on begining of the stroke, especially on small bumps. Fork is working excelent, all adjustement working. Pressure is about 60 psi, Rebound 3 Clicks from open, HSC 1 click from open, LSC 2 clicks from open ( after lasy trip in Mountain ).My weight around 93 kg ( around 205 lbs). Does anybody has/ have it and know what is the reason and how to solve it?


Sounds more like the rebound spring being out of position. Makes a soft knocking sound and the fork seems to perform ok.
I had it before and fixed it myself. You do need to open the damper side.

I'ts probably the one real problem wit this fork. I had this 2 times, think after a crash or something like that.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thova said:


> Sounds more like the rebound spring being out of position. Makes a soft knocking sound and the fork seems to perform ok.
> I had it before and fixed it myself. You do need to open the damper side.
> 
> I'ts probably the one real problem wit this fork. I had this 2 times, think after a crash or something like that.


That's only an Expert problem. The Pro uses a different rebound check spring that can't jump out of place.

I think it needs stripped down to see if anything is loose.


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## gabgi (Dec 29, 2008)

Dougla, lowers has been moved out twice to check if anything ( air side and damper side ) is loose and found nothing . Can it be air piston ( just thinking ....maybe air piston is not screwed correctly) ?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

shiny said:


> Came here to post this, bit concerned with the dials on top of the damper No HBO would be a let down as that feature is great. Also much better cable routing. Looking forward to some more details.


So, the pink bike article was a bit thin but I found this site had lots more info:

https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-and-hayes-plotting-comeback/

37mm stanchions, 4.4 lbs, 170mm travel. Fork sounds like an absolute killer.


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## Zae5op (Mar 12, 2013)

Hey I recently serviced my Mattoc Expert and have now noticed a knocking noise coming from what sounds like the damper assembly. The sound is a single knock/tap that occurs right as the fork begins its upward motion after being compressed, and it becomes louder if I increase the amount of rebound damping. While servicing, I swapped out the fork oil for Maxima 5wt, and left 80mm of air between the top of the oil and the top of the upper threads.

Does anyone have an idea what could be the cause of this noise?


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Zae5op said:


> Hey I recently serviced my Mattoc Expert and have now noticed a knocking noise coming from what sounds like the damper assembly. The sound is a single knock/tap that occurs right as the fork begins its upward motion after being compressed, and it becomes louder if I increase the amount of rebound damping. While servicing, I swapped out the fork oil for Maxima 5wt, and left 80mm of air between the top of the oil and the top of the upper threads.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea what could be the cause of this noise?


Sounds like the rebound check spring jumped out of place in the removal/refit process.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> So, the pink bike article was a bit thin but I found this site had lots more info:
> 
> https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-and-hayes-plotting-comeback/
> 
> 37mm stanchions, 4.4 lbs, 170mm travel. Fork sounds like an absolute killer.


Take my money, I want Mega Mattoc and I want it now!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> So, the pink bike article was a bit thin but I found this site had lots more info:
> 
> https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-and-hayes-plotting-comeback/
> 
> 37mm stanchions, 4.4 lbs, 170mm travel. Fork sounds like an absolute killer.


170mm sounds low.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> 170mm sounds low.


I want one.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Zae5op (Mar 12, 2013)

Is this the rebound check spring? Just want to make sure before I take it apart again! Thank you


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Zae5op said:


> View attachment 1215100
> 
> 
> Is this the rebound check spring? Just want to make sure before I take it apart again! Thank you


Yes.


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## BareNecessities (Nov 21, 2012)

Apologies if this has asked before, but it's a huge thread to read through. 

I'm looking to buy one of the Magnum pro 27.5+ forks from CRC. They have both the 2016 and 2017 models available in 100mm travel, but I'd like to be able to extend it to 120mm. I've read somewhere that the 2016 models had different length stanchions, so that there was a 80-100mm model, and a 120-140mm model. Does anyone know if this is the case, and if it also applies to the 2017 version?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> 170mm sounds low.


You are right, it actually says 180!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Vespasianus said:


> You are right, it actually says 180!


27.5 with 180mm

29 with 170mm

;-)

In want it.... How much will it be, 800 bucks? Hope street price is max as high as Lyrik


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

bansaiman said:


> 27.5 with 180mm
> 
> 29 with 170mm
> 
> ...


Man, that does sound very competitive, especially at that target weight. And no matter how stiff it is, using a size larger than 36 will help in the marketing.

$800 (USD) would be an absolute steal - given that a Fox 36 or Rock Shock Lyrik are both >$1000.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> Man, that does sound very competitive, especially at that target weight. And no matter how stiff it is, using a size larger than 36 will help in the marketing.
> 
> $800 (USD) would be an absolute steal - given that a Fox 36 or Rock Shock Lyrik are both >$1000.


IMO they would have to make it less than that to be competitive. Simply because Manitou has such a black cloud hanging over it to most in the industry. Those of us that have actually ridden the current generation stuff know better, but it's not a "household" name like the other players. Nor do you see it on any higher end OEM stuff.

We all know how great the MC2 damper is, and the forks in general. Most do not, nor are they willing to give them a chance. Sad, but true.

Needless to say, I want one! Do I need one? No. But I wouldn't mind having one!!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

R_Pierce said:


> IMO they would have to make it less than that to be competitive. Simply because Manitou has such a black cloud hanging over it to most in the industry. Those of us that have actually ridden the current generation stuff know better, but it's not a "household" name like the other players. Nor do you see it on any higher end OEM stuff.
> 
> We all know how great the MC2 damper is, and the forks in general. Most do not, nor are they willing to give them a chance. Sad, but true.
> 
> ...


Well, the Mattoc when it came out was something like $799 or $850, so I doubt it will be cheaper than that. I think the Mattoc 29" is something like that as well.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> Well, the Mattoc when it came out was something like $799 or $850, so I doubt it will be cheaper than that. I think the Mattoc 29" is something like that as well.


Yeah most places the Mattoc 27.5+/29 runs around $900 so I am assuming this new "long travel" 29er will probably be close to that price. But doesn't really matter to me, next bike (next year) will have this fork and probably the Dominion A4s on it!


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Dougal said:


> That's only an Expert problem. The Pro uses a different rebound check spring that can't jump out of place.


Well, coincidence or not, i have that knock again, 2nd time this summer and it get's annoying.
If it is an expert problem, can i replace the rebound assembly by a pro rebound assembly without replacing the expert damper?


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## acedeuce802 (Jun 30, 2017)

Syncro said:


> my HBO dial won't turn, it's jammed or something. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to do?


Has anyone else had this issue? Or is Syncro still responding to this thread 2 years later? I just pulled my compression damper on my Mattoc Pro 2 27.5 to check fluid, and reinstalled. I had all knobs at full soft. When reinstalling, I noticed the HSC knob would seat properly on the LSC, but the HBO wouldn't seat down on the HSC knob. Instead of being recessed in the HSC, it's now flush on top, and will not turn. The LSC and HSC knobs feel just right. I've checked for the spring/balls, cleaned them and their slots, cleaned in between the HBO and HSC knob. If I remove the LSC knob and just put the HBO knob on the splines, it still won't turn. How would that be possible to lock up the HBO shaft if all I did was remove and reinstall the compression damper? I didn't even set it down, I literally just pulled the damper straight out, measured with the other hand, and pushed it straight back in.


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## Zae5op (Mar 12, 2013)

Boom King said:


> Sounds like the rebound check spring jumped out of place in the removal/refit process.


Thank you Boom King and Dougal, I took the fork back apart and you were exactly right, the rebound check spring had become slightly overlapped on itself. After straightening it out and reassembling everything works great and the knock is gone, you guys rock!


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## Zae5op (Mar 12, 2013)

mullen119 said:


> View attachment 1043360
> 
> 
> Got my McLeod back and installed the new mattoc expert rebound damper. The expert now has 9 clicks of rebound instead of 4.
> ...


Well here is a coincidence I have been poring over this thread for the last couple days and I am 99% certain I have your old bike


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

For the people who have the irt, how often do you re-grease the o-rings on it? I'm about to do a small service on my mattoc. While i pull the fork apart i was wondering if i should service the irt aswell.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

hurck said:


> For the people who have the irt, how often do you re-grease the o-rings on it? I'm about to do a small service on my mattoc. While i pull the fork apart i was wondering if i should service the irt aswell.


I do mine when i do a bath oil change (every 3-4 months in my case), but really, given how easy it is to pull the IRT out, you could do it as often as you want.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

^what he said.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi guys, I made a little mistake while ordering air piston seal and I received one for Magnum, does it fit Mattoc?


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Kiwiplague said:


> I do mine when i do a bath oil change (every 3-4 months in my case), but really, given how easy it is to pull the IRT out, you could do it as often as you want.


About the same interval for the bath oil change as I use. Will include the irt then aswell


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Hi guys, I made a little mistake while ordering air piston seal and I received one for Magnum, does it fit Mattoc?


I am pretty sure it is the exact same thing.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Zae5op said:


> Well here is a coincidence I have been poring over this thread for the last couple days and I am 99% certain I have your old bike
> 
> View attachment 1215261


The braking hose is not to be guided this way between the stanchions. . This is awfully wrong and can lead to damage


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Zae5op said:


> Well here is a coincidence I have been poring over this thread for the last couple days and I am 99% certain I have your old bike
> 
> View attachment 1215261


That is definitely one of my old bikes. Hope you are enjoying it!


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

bansaiman said:


> The braking hose is not to be guided this way between the stanchions. . This is awfully wrong and can lead to damage


How would it cause damage?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Desertride said:


> How would it cause damage?


Because it can pinch the hose at bottom out/full travel.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> Because it can pinch the hose at bottom out/full travel.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


Yeah, its not recommended by manitou to run it that way. In the case of the bike in question, the front brake line was too short to run it the way manitou wants. It was checked diligently though and will not have any issues in its current form.

I miss that bike, one of my all time favorites. So playful on the trails.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> You are right, it actually says 180!


OOOOOhhhhh a 29er Mattoc that is 150mm-180mm adjustable would be stellar!


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

gregnash said:


> OOOOOhhhhh a 29er Mattoc that is 150mm-180mm adjustable would be stellar!


But on nsmb it says 180mm on the 27.5 fork.... On pinkbike they are talking about a 29 fork.... And that one has 170mm. Anyway good enough. Cannot wait


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bansaiman said:


> But on nsmb it says 180mm on the 27.5 fork.... On pinkbike they are talking about a 29 fork.... And that one has 170mm. Anyway good enough. Cannot wait


Patience. You will know these details in good time.


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

I have a new take off Mattoc 100mm Hexlock SL axle with the mounting hardware I'll send in the US for $15 shipped.
Same as this:
https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/products/manitou-hexlock-sl-100mm-thru-axle
If you want to convert your QR-15 to a bolt on axle this is what you need.


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## mactheknife (Feb 25, 2018)

Quick one guys, i have a bit of play in the bushings on my new Mattoc Pro. Im 99 percent sure CRC will say they are within tolerance as i have had this before with a set of fox i had from them. Sooooooo as a DIY job is it easy enough to do yourself or do i need to call in the experts ?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mactheknife said:


> Quick one guys, i have a bit of play in the bushings on my new Mattoc Pro. Im 99 percent sure CRC will say they are within tolerance as i have had this before with a set of fox i had from them. Sooooooo as a DIY job is it easy enough to do yourself or do i need to call in the experts ?


Top or bottom?

You need a specialized puller and a sizing tool to push through them to ensure they're round and to size when done.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> The 8mm ID shims do not need to cover the ports, you get a seal with the 10mm ID shims (assuming you don't have the hsc adjustment set up to give you float, which you shouldn't, especially on a mattoc).
> 
> Use the 8mm shims to control port size when you are tuning(adjusting diameter rather than thickness, though you can change thickness as well as a more advanced tuning method). You can add shims under the larger 8mm ID shims to give a little free bleed under the 8mm stack.
> 
> ...


I know I'm quoting an old post, but it's shim-related.

I have some 8mm ID shims so I can increase port flow, but I don't have any 10mm ID shims and I want something softer than the stock preloaded 10mmx21mmx0.2mm shim. Does anyone know of an online shop where I can buy small quantities of shims, preferably in Canada but maybe anywhere if shipping is reasonable? One USA shop wants ~$30 shipping for a $15 order...


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Patience. You will know these details in good time.


Hope it will be available soon, too. And price beneath 999 dollars instead of uothere with the others


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## GianlucaHT (Sep 10, 2018)

Hello guys! I'm looking for a new fork to substitute to my current RS Domain 318. I was searching for a pike in some used market, but then I discovered the mattoc and read a lot of good reviews. I like underrated products or brands, and I want to try the mattoc. In the used market I've only found the first mattoc pro for 350€ (brand new). What's the difference between the pro and the pro 2? Is it worthy waiting for a good offer of the pro2 or should I buy the pro1 for this price? I'm from Italy and these forks are not so common.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GianlucaHT said:


> Hello guys! I'm looking for a new fork to substitute to my current RS Domain 318. I was searching for a pike in some used market, but then I discovered the mattoc and read a lot of good reviews. I like underrated products or brands, and I want to try the mattoc. In the used market I've only found the first mattoc pro for 350€ (brand new). What's the difference between the pro and the pro 2? Is it worthy waiting for a good offer of the pro2 or should I buy the pro1 for this price? I'm from Italy and these forks are not so common.


Get the first pro and add updates as needed. Hexlock SL axle and IRT are my picks. Also high flow piston if you ride rocks or roots often.


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## GianlucaHT (Sep 10, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Get the first pro and add updates as needed. Hexlock SL axle and IRT are my picks. Also high flow piston if you ride rocks or roots often.


Thank you! I've just bought the pro1 for 300€ with IRT included!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GianlucaHT said:


> Thank you! I've just bought the pro1 for 300€ with IRT included!


You'll also want the new seals. 141-34000 is the part number.


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## GianlucaHT (Sep 10, 2018)

Dougal said:


> You'll also want the new seals. 141-34000 is the part number.


Awesome, thank you!


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

I just stripped my mattoc expert to correct the rebound spring. When opening the airspring there was oil in the - chamber. Turns out I'm still running an old piston whit one glide ring.

I contacted my local suspension shop to order a new piston. He said i might as well just stop using oil as the grease does a good job on it's own. He also claims he got this information from Manitou France.

I only thrust you guy's so what do you think?

Buy new piston ore stop using oil?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

thova said:


> I just stripped my mattoc expert to correct the rebound spring. When opening the airspring there was oil in the - chamber. Turns out I'm still running an old piston whit one glide ring.
> 
> I contacted my local suspension shop to order a new piston. He said i might as well just stop using oil as the grease does a good job on it's own. He also claims he got this information from Manitou France.
> 
> ...


Wait, stop using oil for what? Bath oil? I would recommend the new dual seal piston (with plenty of grease) but still definitely use bath oil in the lower legs!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> Wait, stop using oil for what? Bath oil? I would recommend the new dual seal piston (with plenty of grease) but still definitely use bath oil in the lower legs!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


The 3 cc you put on top of the airpiston. He say's it's not needed and i can run the old piston with grease only.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

thova said:


> The 3 cc you put on top of the airpiston. He say's it's not needed and i can run the old piston with grease only.


I've never added oil on top of the air piston. Just grease.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

thova said:


> The 3 cc you put on top of the airpiston. He say's it's not needed and i can run the old piston with grease only.


Even Manitou deleted that step from the service video.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

I have been using an old video then. 
Is there another reason to change the old piston? If it's only oil migration, then obviously not.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

thova said:


> Ok, thanks !
> 
> I'll keep the old piston then.


I would still put the new piston in place.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

I was editing my post and we crossed each other.

I'll change the piston, Thanks


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

thova said:


> I was editing my post and we crossed each other.
> 
> I'll change the piston, Thanks


No problem. The dual seal piston helps keep it straight in the bore of the stanchion and reduces binding.


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## mountaingoatepics (Jan 30, 2004)

Does anyone have an Expert 27.5 Rebound cone I can buy from them? I need one to finish my fork. Any harm in running the 26 cone for now until I get the 27.5? I am running the spacer under the bottom out rubber bushing on the air piston assembly.


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## GianlucaHT (Sep 10, 2018)

The Mattoc that I've just bought seems to have an issue. I misured the travel, and it is 145mm. I read that I should try putting the fork upside down, let out the air, pull up the stanchions and refill the air. But will this issue show up again in the future? What is the cause? I also read that could be a air valve issue, but how can I understand if it is?

The situation is that:
https://imgur.com/a/rWPHCdU


http://imgur.com/todjHsa


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GianlucaHT said:


> The Mattoc that I've just bought seems to have an issue. I misured the travel, and it is 145mm. I read that I should try putting the fork upside down, let out the air, pull up the stanchions and refill the air. But will this issue show up again in the future? What is the cause? I also read that could be a air valve issue, but how can I understand if it is?
> 
> The situation is that:
> https://imgur.com/a/rWPHCdU
> ...


They have bottom-out bumpers so you don't get full travel just by stroking the fork. You need to hit something hard.

When you connect a pump the positive and negative chambers connect and equalize. You can set the travel whereever you like, remove the pump, and it'll stay there. If you want full travel, make sure the fork is fully extended.


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## GianlucaHT (Sep 10, 2018)

Dougal said:


> They have bottom-out bumpers so you don't get full travel just by stroking the fork. You need to hit something hard.
> 
> When you connect a pump the positive and negative chambers connect and equalize. You can set the travel whereever you like, remove the pump, and it'll stay there. If you want full travel, make sure the fork is fully extended.


Ok, thank you. I had a Domain so I have to buy a pump. Someone has raccomanded me to buy a Rockshox pump, but can I use other pumps without losing reliability?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GianlucaHT said:


> Ok, thank you. I had a Domain so I have to buy a pump. Someone has raccomanded me to buy a Rockshox pump, but can I use other pumps without losing reliability?


Pumps are pumps. They're all compatible.


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## jpo1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Today while riding my fork became suddenly harsh and I could only compress it a few inches. I discovered my rebound knob fell off at some point too, and for some reason thought that was the cause. 

Well I figured out its not the rebound knob, so I flipped the bike over and let all the air out and then compressed and extended the fork after every 5-10 pumps. I had to do this sequence twice and now my fork feels back to normal.

Did I fix the issue or just temporarily, and my fork just need serviced??


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jpo1 said:


> Today while riding my fork became suddenly harsh and I could only compress it a few inches. I discovered my rebound knob fell off at some point too, and for some reason thought that was the cause.
> 
> Well I figured out its not the rebound knob, so I flipped the bike over and let all the air out and then compressed and extended the fork after every 5-10 pumps. I had to do this sequence twice and now my fork feels back to normal.
> 
> Did I fix the issue or just temporarily, and my fork just need serviced??


Time to service I would say. You may have a worn main air seal.


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## jpo1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Dougal said:


> Time to service I would say. You may have a worn main air seal.


Dang, yeah your probably right. Thanks for the feedback taking it in this week.


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## jpo1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Anyone have their outer leg assembly for their QR15 fall off? I lost mine and my rebound recently.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

jpo1 said:


> Anyone have their outer leg assembly for their QR15 fall off? I lost mine and my rebound recently.


Huh? What fell off?


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## jpo1 (Jul 6, 2012)

Outer leg assembly. Now I'm going to be paranoid and check it often.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jpo1 said:


> Outer leg assembly. Now I'm going to be paranoid and check it often.


That should not happen unless you messed with it prior to falling off.

Do yourself a favor and buy the SL axle.


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## jpo1 (Jul 6, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> That should not happen unless you messed with it prior to falling off.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and buy the SL axle.


Nope, I have never touched it. It worked itself loose over time, even though its two years old and not a lot of miles. Noticed it when I was washing the bike. The rubber ring and the piece where the QR locks in was still there, but the outer piece that screws into the leg was gone. It has a bit of loctite from the factory on it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

jpo1 said:


> Outer leg assembly. Now I'm going to be paranoid and check it often.


Wow that is wacky.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jpo1 said:


> Nope, I have never touched it. It worked itself loose over time, even though its two years old and not a lot of miles. Noticed it when I was washing the bike. The rubber ring and the piece where the QR locks in was still there, but the outer piece that screws into the leg was gone. It has a bit of loctite from the factory on it.


That is really weird. I'll ask around, but I have never heard of it happening before.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Strictly for your entertainment, here's a close-up of a Mattoc at more or less full travel (27.5" with spacer).


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

phile said:


> Strictly for your entertainment, here's a close-up of a Mattoc at more or less full travel (27.5" with spacer).
> 
> View attachment 1217844


Thats most definitely full travel! Plus some. lol.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Thats most definitely full travel! Plus some. lol.


Yeah. I have that same bike but with a black mattoc

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

R_Pierce said:


> Thats most definitely full travel! Plus some. lol.


And he got all of the tire squish there as well!


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow. Might be time to add another click or two of HBO!


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

ColinL said:


> Wow. Might be time to add another click or two of HBO!


Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--

Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
Main air spring: 35 lbs
IRT: 90 lbs
HBO: +3 clicks from open
LSC: open
HSC: open
Rebound: +1 click from open
(2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front)

I find this setup a bit harsh on braking bumps--I need to do more experimenting.

Entered my first enduro this weekend at Mammoth bike park (California Enduro Series round 6)--11th out of 28 starters in Beginner Men. I rode pretty well relative to my skill level, and had a lot of fun.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

phile said:


> Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--
> 
> Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
> Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
> ...


I'd say less rebound damping, especially if you ride faster. Also note that adding HBO increase overall compression damping. Interesting that I have similar main to IRT pressure ratio.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Why would HBO increase compresion overall?
Afaik it only affects last 3cm of travel or so.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--
> 
> Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
> Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
> ...


That's a big split with IRT. Here my are settings beside yours. I'm a bit heavier but bike is slacker so front end weight is likely similar.

Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear) 160lb
Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm Pro Boost 170mm with high flow piston.
Main air spring: 35 lbs 40psi normal, 45psi for chairlift.
IRT: 90 lbs 60psi normal, 65psi for chairlift
HBO: +3 clicks from open closed
LSC: open closed
HSC: open  open
Rebound: +1 click from open  3 clicks from open (5 clicks from closed)
(2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front) 2.6" DHF front 25psi.

I don't jump much. I have the fork setup to eat as much mid-stroke roughness as possible and use HBO to take out the big stuff.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

mullen119 said:


> Do yourself a favor and buy the SL axle.


What's the benefit? I have no issue with the QR15 on both my Mattocs....


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Dougal said:


> That's a big split with IRT. Here my are settings beside yours. I'm a bit heavier but bike is slacker so front end weight is likely similar.
> 
> Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear) 160lb
> Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm Pro Boost 170mm with high flow piston.
> ...


Thanks, Dougal! I will play with the knobs, especially where my settings are so different from yours. I kept the main psi at my "trail" pressure and added IRT and HBO based on the o-ring--that's how I ended up with such a big main/IRT gap.

2 questions for you:

1. Your closed LSC--that must be possible because of your magic piston? That sounds harsh with a stock piston--or do I misunderstand how LSC works?

2. My tire pressure is really low vs. yours (and other people's). More air feels harsher to me. Besides pinch flats (I do get them), am I penalized for going so low? I can't feel the tire rolling onto the sidewall, but it must be happening. Is it slowing me down?


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

1.
Closed LSC doesn't necessarily mean harsh ride, because LSC and HSC are not really independend it a sense how they influence the damping curve.

If LSC is closed (LSC port closed) and HSC is open (no or minimal preload on shim stack), all the oil will flow trough HSC shim stack. That means, that closed LSC (if HSC open) doesn't really have a lot of effect. There will not be a lot of low speed damping, but there will be verry small platform, but once the shims open, there won't be a lot of damping.

2.
I also like low tyre presure. I am 72kg (around 159 lbs) without gear. I use 19-20psi in the front and 22-23psi in the back, 2.3 - 2.35 inch on 27.5". If you are getting a lot of pinch flats, you should go tubeless. But if you are striking the rim very hard (visible dents), you will have to increase a tyre presure.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

s-master said:


> If LSC is closed (LSC port closed) and HSC is open (no or minimal preload on shim stack), all the oil will flow trough HSC shim stack. That means, that closed LSC (if HSC open) doesn't really have a lot of effect.


Oh, right--that makes sense!



> I also like low tyre presure. I am 72kg (around 159 lbs) without gear. I use 19-20psi in the front and 22-23psi in the back, 2.3 - 2.35 inch on 27.5". If you are getting a lot of pinch flats, you should go tubeless. But if you are striking the rim very hard (visible dents), you will have to increase a tyre presure.


I should have clarified, it's tubeless--those are "tire" pinch flats, not "tube" pinch flats. But the rim is not getting particularly dented. Glad to hear I'm not the only one running this low.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> Oh, right--that makes sense!
> 
> I should have clarified, it's tubeless--those are "tire" pinch flats, not "tube" pinch flats. But the rim is not getting particularly dented. Glad to hear I'm not the only one running this low.


Just a fyi for everybody, HBO will not change total travel used. The HBO circuit is speed sensitive, and meant to slow the last little bit of travel. Once the shaft speeds slow, the HBO circuit loses its damping effect. The idea is to keep riders from slamming into the bottom out bumper on hard hits, which allows for riders to not need an excessively progressive spring that will wallow.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> Just a fyi for everybody, HBO will not change total travel used. The HBO circuit is speed sensitive, and meant to slow the last little bit of travel. Once the shaft speeds slow, the HBO circuit loses its damping effect. The idea is to keep riders from slamming into the bottom out bumper on hard hits, which allows for riders to not need an excessively progressive spring that will wallow.


I'm confused--I understand that it has no effect prior to the last 30mm of travel, and I understand that it only comes into play at high shaft speeds, but during a big hit, shouldn't it have a pronounced effect on travel in that last 30mm? The fork compresses, the HBO rod thingy inhibits oil flow, the damper shaft slows down faster, and uses less travel as a result. No?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> I'm confused--I understand that it has no effect prior to the last 30mm of travel, and I understand that it only comes into play at high shaft speeds, but during a big hit, shouldn't it have a pronounced effect on travel in that last 30mm?


It has a pronounced effect on how the last 30mm feels, but it doesnt keep you from using full travel because its effect diminishes as it works. Shaft speeds slow down, its overall effect lessens, you use full travel (assuming the hit has enough force to require full travel)


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> It has a pronounced effect on how the last 30mm feels, but it doesnt keep you from using full travel because its effect diminishes as it works. Shaft speeds slow down, its overall effect lessens, you use full travel (assuming the hit has enough force to require full travel)


I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.

Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> Thanks, Dougal! I will play with the knobs, especially where my settings are so different from yours. I kept the main psi at my "trail" pressure and added IRT and HBO based on the o-ring--that's how I ended up with such a big main/IRT gap.
> 
> 2 questions for you:
> 
> ...


Yes the high flow piston reduces high speed damping. So you can run more LSC without harshness. The closed LSC gives more damping and control across the speed range.

When you have the suspension sorted a firm tyre will not be a problem. I have to run firm tyres as I ride rocky trails which destroy rims. Even last summer with 35psi in the rear I turned a back wheel octagonal.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.
> 
> Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?


Yes any extra damping (including HBO) will reduce the stroke needed to take out a certain bump energy.

You will know if you need to dial in more HBO. It becomes very very obvious. I changed forks (identical other than colour) and bikes last year and missed that HBO was open instead of closed.
A small drop I had done plenty of times prior ended in a wrist hurting bang. It was normally quiet and smooth.

Made me realise how much riders of other brand forks are suffering and why they run ~90psi on the same tracks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phile said:


> I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.
> 
> Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?


You are both right and wrong. The main compression damper does have an effect on travel used, mainly because it is always active. There are other factors at play as well though.

For example, closing the LSC needle to prevent pedal bob. As you say, fork will move less (limit travel), but the reason this happens is because the amount of time force is applied trying to compress the fork is relatively short. If the same amount of force is applied over a longer period of time, the fork will compress the same amount. You are slowing the speed at which it compresses, not the distance. The reason it actually limits the travel used is because the amount of time the force is applied too short to over come the slow speed that it is compressing. Even if a fork/shock is fully locked out(assuming that it has a blow off) it will fully bottom if there is enough force then the spring will support, and the force is applied for enough time. This is why if you let all the air out of you fork and lock it out, it will still slowly compress to full travel.

In the case of HBO, it only comes into play with the last 20-30mm of travel. If the impact is applying force that is strong enough and for a long enough period of time to bottom out, the HBO system will only slow it to keep it from smacking into the rubber bumper with extreme force. Faster the shaft speeds when the cones meet, the more damping force it creates, but once the shaft speeds slow , it no longer is a factor and can continue to full bottom out. The difference wont be that you used full travel, It will be that you dont feel an awful thud and hurt your hands when you reach it.

I personally just run it full closed all the time, there is very little reason not to.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Yes the high flow piston reduces high speed damping. So you can run more LSC without harshness. The closed LSC gives more damping and control across the speed range.
> 
> When you have the suspension sorted a firm tyre will not be a problem. I have to run firm tyres as I ride rocky trails which destroy rims. Even last summer with 35psi in the rear I turned a back wheel octagonal.


Thanks for the info. That's crazy that you can damage a wheel at 160 lbs of rider weight and 35 psi of tire pressure!


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> I personally just run it full closed all the time, there is very little reason not to.


Ooh, another vote for max HBO, interesting! Thanks.


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

Do I just not get the function of HBO? I've always left it open...never managed to noticeably bottom out my 160mm Mattoc, so figured there was no point.

I'm about 190lbs, maybe pushing closer to 200 in downhill gear with a camelbak. I was doing some park riding last week, and didn't even firm up the fork that much...was running 45-50 main, 75-80 IRT. HSC 1-2 clicks. LSC almost closed, one or two clicks of rebound. I may have gotten into the last 10-20mm of travel on rare occasions, at worst.

I didn't feel like I could back off the pressures any more, or it just got too wallowy. 5 pounds less in the main chamber and I felt like any tiny little rock sucked up half the travel. Less IRT and there just wasn't enough support when pointed downhill. And no 'sproing' in the second half of the stroke.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phuchmileif said:


> I didn't feel like I could back off the pressures any more, or it just got too wallowy. 5 pounds less in the main chamber and I felt like any tiny little rock sucked up half the travel. Less IRT and there just wasn't enough support when pointed downhill. And no 'sproing' in the second half of the stroke.


5psi is a huge change when running the IRT set up. A 1psi difference is substantial. I switched to a digital pump specifically to be able to have .5psi increments because it's that sensitive (to me anyway) I'm not as sensitive to changes when running IVA,

As for HBO, its mostly self explanatory and everyone has it mostly right, but it's more of a gradual cushion to slow down shaft speeds as you near the end of the stroke then a travel limiting ramp up adjustment. Its purpose is to keep you from needing to have excessive spring progression to keep you from slamming into the rubber bumper. (Progressive springs lack midstroke support)


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> 5psi is a huge change when running the IRT set up. A 1psi difference is substantial. I switched to a digital pump specifically to be able to have .5psi increments because it's that sensitive (to me anyway) I'm not as sensitive to changes when running IVA,
> 
> As for HBO, its mostly self explanatory and everyone has it mostly right, but it's more of a gradual cushion to slow down shaft speeds as you near the end of the stroke then a travel limiting ramp up adjustment. Its purpose is to keep you from needing to have excessive spring progression to keep you from slamming into the rubber bumper. (Progressive springs lack midstroke support)


I think his point is that when he sets his fork per his preferences it's so hard to bottom that HBO seems pointless. That's my experience also. Before IRT I almost never bottomed out. Now with IRT I can set it up to bottom out more often but never harshly even with HBO all open.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

phile said:


> Thanks for the info. That's crazy that you can damage a wheel at 160 lbs of rider weight and 35 psi of tire pressure!


Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Just saw new 27 fork..is travel adjustable? What kind of axle?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.


Ok....pro...

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.


Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.

Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:

Bernard Kerr (WC DH) 181 lbs, 28 psi
Troy Brosnan (WC DH) 146 lbs, 28 psi
Mark Wallace (WC DH) 170 lbs, 30 psi
Richie Rude (EWS) 205 lbs, 33 psi/30 psi
Cody Kelley (EWS) 165 lbs, 29 psi


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

phile said:


> Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.
> 
> Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:
> 
> ...


Jayem must ride "harder" than these guys. For what it's worth, I'm 250 pounds and run 25 psi in the front and 28 psi in the rear. It's highly subjective.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ac1000 said:


> I think his point is that when he sets his fork per his preferences it's so hard to bottom that HBO seems pointless. That's my experience also. Before IRT I almost never bottomed out. Now with IRT I can set it up to bottom out more often but never harshly even with HBO all open.


I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.

For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
61.5psi main
102psi IRT
LSC 3 clicks from open
Hsc full open or 1 click in (depends on trail type)
HBO full closed
Rebound 3 clicks in


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.
> 
> For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
> 61.5psi main
> ...


Here is a post I made a few years back explaining the HBO system. Instead of directing people to something 20 some pages back, I will just repost it :

View attachment 1112045


Compression damper is at the bottom, rebound damper at the top. attached to the bottom of the rebound damper is the male bottoming cone, which during the last 20mm of travel gets inserted into the female bottoming cone attached to the compression damper. The female cone is filled with oil that needs to be purged to allow the fork to be compressed any further. There are 3 holes(orifices) in the female cone visible in the above picture and one that is not. As the male cone gets inserted into the female cone, the oil will purge through the three visible holes. As the male cone enters further and the silver seal/glide passes the holes, the number of them that are passing oil is reduced, making it harder and harder to use full travel as you near the end of the stroke.This is why the dyno charts show steps. There is also a spring loaded poppet valve you cant see that the external adjuster adjusts. It adds or subtracts preload on the spring making it harder or easier to purge oil through the 4th orifice. It is designed to be a dead blow damper at this point, but also to allow full travel when the poppet spring opens to purge the oil. If you pay for 160mm of travel, you should use all of it

Here are some dyno charts

View attachment 1112046


The steps are caused by the 3 holes being passed one at a time, adding a ton of damping with each one being passed. Note how the shaft speeds effect how much damping force the cones create. @100mm/sec, it basically does nothing because the oil is easily purged from the cone. This is about as fast as you can compress by hand, and why you dont feel it by pushing down on it. As shaft speeds speed up, the oil cant escape fast enough and its effects are much more obvious. You can only get these shaft speeds by riding.

View attachment 1112047


This graph shows how well the adjuster works. 0 clicks is full closed (clicks are always counted from closed), max 3 is full open. The adjust allows you to control how much force it takes to open the poppet(the trail off at the end) and use full travel.

Fox has used this basic design in the past, as well as avalanche cartridges and a few other for dampers, its the standard in how hydraulic bottom out works. Much nicer than just a rubber bumper that is only effects the last couple mm of travel and is only meant to prevent metal on metal contact


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.
> 
> For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
> 61.5psi main
> ...


This fella right here happens to know a thing or two about how they work 

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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

phile said:


> Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.


Pretty much everyone in EWS these days uses a reinforced casing tire (Double Down, Supergravity, etc.) along with tire inserts of some sort, and they'll often go to a 2-ply DH tire on certain courses. In DH, it's all 2-ply tires and many of them will have inserts as well.

Most of us normal folks aren't willing to pedal around on tires that are that heavy or slow, we're mostly running lighter regular casing tires.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> Here is a post I made a few years back explaining the HBO system. Instead of directing people to something 20 some pages back, I will just repost it :
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Fascinating! What shaft speed is most like landing a drop/jump?

Are the graphs truncated on the right? If not, it looks like HBO is involved in more like the last 20mm of travel than the last 30mm--not sure why I thought it was 30mm.

Side q: is the black rubber cork at the top of the compression damper a bumper? Or what? I've always wondered about that.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.
> 
> For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
> 61.5psi main
> ...


mullen - what kind of impacts are you bottoming on? Bumps inside g-outs, or just hitting a rock or root at speed?


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## phuchmileif (Aug 10, 2016)

That's crazy that he can bottom that. That is some serious-ass riding.

If I get into the end of my travel, it's either a big landing...or I have ****ed something up and am probably mid-endo. At my lower pressures and higher weight, the bottom 20-30mm of the travel still just seems like you're hitting a wall. A very, very springy wall. If I manage to bottom with 102psi in the IRT, I am crashing _violently_...


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

...


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

fsrxc said:


> mullen - what kind of impacts are you bottoming on? Bumps inside g-outs, or just hitting a rock or root at speed?


Full bottom out is usually from over jumping to flat (on purpose most time) or large drops. I will use 130mm or so on large square edge at speed.


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## Kiwiplague (Jul 22, 2011)

phile said:


> Side q: is the black rubber cork at the top of the compression damper a bumper? Or what? I've always wondered about that.


It fulfills the same function as the bladder on other forks. It gets compressed by the damper oil as the fork moves through it's travel. A lot simpler and just as effective as the other systems out there.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.


Last summer I had a mid-ride yarn about tyre pressures. The three main characters in this story were running 35psi (me) about 20 and under 20 for the third guy.

We proceeded to damage three rear wheels on rocks on the way down. Mine was buckled and flat-spotted but I was able to true it straight and keep riding it for the rest of the season. The other two guys rims were deep dents and damaged beyond usable.

A little extra pressure makes a massive difference in stability and rim protection. I've never considered myself a hard or fast rider. I just ride in challenging terrain.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

phuchmileif said:


> That's crazy that he can bottom that. That is some serious-ass riding.
> 
> If I get into the end of my travel, it's either a big landing...or I have ****ed something up and am probably mid-endo. At my lower pressures and higher weight, the bottom 20-30mm of the travel still just seems like you're hitting a wall. A very, very springy wall. If I manage to bottom with 102psi in the IRT, I am crashing _violently_...











A few manitou riders ride up to 175psi, it gets insane


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.
> 
> Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:
> 
> ...


Unlike those guys, I have to pay for my own tyres, rims etc etc and like them to last more than a day.

The DH guys are also running much heavier tyres with thicker walls and many running inserts to stop rim strikes. Same with a lot of Enduro.

Basically I'm using air pressure to stop rim strikes and don't care about giving up a little traction. But those guys are running the lower pressure to maximise grip and having to take all sorts of other steps to keep their wheels in one piece.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

Deerhill said:


> Deerhill said:
> 
> 
> > Just saw new 27 fork..is travel adjustable? What kind of axle?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

OrenPerets said:


> Deerhill said:
> 
> 
> > Link please?
> ...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> OrenPerets said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I am curious as well. Was waiting to see something from Interbike but have seen no one post on Manitou yet. Really wish I would have gone seeing as I am now 30 mins away.
> ...


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

I can't find anything, sorry..post on vital is the only thing that popped up.. it must've been a boxxer or a not new dorado (had writing on stanchions). Dude was hauling azz so it must not've been a boxxer:lol: internet aint turning up squat tho


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Deerhill said:


> I can't find anything, sorry..keep looking for a bit then guess I 'll edit that post.. it must've been a boxxer or a not new dorado (had writing on stantions). Dude was hauling azz so it must not've been a boxxer:lol: internet aint turning up squat tho


Silver forks are special editions, not for public. Not sure what pic you are referring to.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Saw it riding..*



mullen119 said:


> Silver forks are special editions, not for public. Not sure what pic you are referring to.


I don't know what fork it was, just thought it looked like a not inverted manitou. Sounds like I'm wrong though, is there a new dorado in the works??


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Waiting for my Mattoc Pro 2 (CRC Exclusive) delivery, I have few questions.

It will replace a DT Swiss XMM 140 (who said that reverse arch are ugly?), on my Kona Explosif HT. I'm going to shorten the Mattoc at 140mm too.

I hope to be able to do it without dedicated tools, using the 4mm allen trick, but I have to check if my cassette tool will fit (with or without the cutaway that I can do if necessary), it's a Kemper 2303-00 that should be for Campagnolo cassettes, but I'm sure to have bought it for my old Shimano Centerlock discs and worked fine with shimano cassettes too.
If not, I'll think about buying the crazy expensive Manitou tools or just a Park Tool 5.2 as suggested here and grinding a 8mm hex socket.

I read that (quoting Dougal)_ "When you connect a pump the positive and negative chambers connect and equalize. You can set the travel whereever you like, remove the pump, and it'll stay there"_
May be this a temporary workaround to set the fork at 140 waiting for proper tools (and time)? Could someone be more specific how it works? After setting the travel this way, how is the desired air pressure set?

I also read that at 140mm the IRT advantages are less noticeable and standard IVA is more than fine, is this true? I'm more a set and forget guy. Riding it on a hardtail I'd like to have a less divey fork, would the IRT make a worthy difference at 140mm?

Regarding lowers oil, I'd like to buy something that I could also use on my 2014 Fox 34 Factory. It seems that Fox Gold 20 should be fine for the Mattoc too. I have also an almost full bottle of Motul 10w 100% syntetic fork oil (Motul is easy to find and rather cheap here in Italy), but [email protected]° is only 36, I guess that something around 100 is needed.

Could be possible to change travel internally to a new fork without having to refill oil levels?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

#fdh said:


> Waiting for my Mattoc Pro 2 (CRC Exclusive) delivery, I have few questions.
> 
> It will replace a DT Swiss XMM 140 (who said that reverse arch are ugly?), on my Kona Explosif HT. I'm going to shorten the Mattoc at 140mm too.
> 
> ...


While you can set travel by removing the pump when the fork is compressed, it does not feel the same. Very squishy and hard to control the actual travel. I would not recommend running the fork like that.

I ran the IRT at 160 and when I moved to 140, I initially removed it, thinking I would not need it. In reality, the IRT is even better with the shorter travel as it makes the mid stroke much more supportive. I run it almost 2:1 in the 140mm setting. Make sure you add the IRT air first, pull the legs apart and add air to the main chambers.

I use Fox gold in my bath oil but have also used Mobil 1 motor oil. Both work fine. The Fox gold is better but gets sticky in the cold.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

#fdh said:


> I hope to be able to do it without dedicated tools, using the 4mm allen trick, but I have to check if my cassette tool will fit (with or without the cutaway that I can do if necessary), it's a Kemper 2303-00 that should be for Campagnolo cassettes, but I'm sure to have bought it for my old Shimano Centerlock discs and worked fine with shimano cassettes too.
> If not, I'll think about buying the crazy expensive Manitou tools or just a Park Tool 5.2 as suggested here and grinding a 8mm hex socket.


I've opened my Mattocs several times now without the Manitou tools. The first time was a disaster. Potential pitfalls:

I avoided this trap, but do pay attention to the clockwise/counterclockwise issue--remember that some of the threads are being accessed from the "back" and need to be turned the opposite direction (despite being threaded normally--it's your perspective that is reversed).

I somehow thought I needed a Park FR 1.2, and bought one for the job. It seemed to fit well enough--then I almost ruined the fork. Be wary of a tool that "seems" like the right fit, but has a little slop. It doesn't take much. It doesn't need to be slotted if the tool has wrench flats (instead of being designed for use with a socket wrench).

I ground down a cheap socket, and then it split where I removed too much material--and it stripped the fitting. Now I use an allen wrench (good tips here regarding reassembly, and in general: https://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/blog/manitou-mattoc-air-spring-issues.html).


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Vespasianus said:


> While you can set travel by removing the pump when the fork is compressed, it does not feel the same. Very squishy and hard to control the actual travel. I would not recommend running the fork like that.


I may use this way just one or two times before I have to leave in a few days for a trip, the actual fork is creaking so bad that I'm not feeling safe riding it, needs investigation.



Vespasianus said:


> I use Fox gold in my bath oil but have also used Mobil 1 motor oil. Both work fine. The Fox gold is better but gets sticky in the cold.


Fox Gold 20w
Rockshox 5WT for the damper ([email protected]° cst)
Sram Butter grease

Sounds good?



phile said:


> I've opened my Mattocs several times now without the Manitou tools. The first time was a disaster. Potential pitfalls:
> 
> I avoided this trap, but do pay attention to the clockwise/counterclockwise issue--remember that some of the threads are being accessed from the "back" and need to be turned the opposite direction (despite being threaded normally--it's your perspective that is reversed).
> 
> ...


Thank you for the tips, very informative, already watched Manitou videos and I'm aware of most of the correct procedure, as for the cassette socket, assuming that I have to buy a new one, thinking to go with Park Tool FR5.2


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Aglo said:


> Today I used a Parktool FR-5.2 to remove the airshaft on a Mattoc Comp from a friend.
> All I needed was to remove all the air and compress the shaft. I was to try it on the damper side, but I forgot to do it in the end.
> One alternative is the Unior Freewheel remover Shimano - 1670.5/4
> Link: https://www.bike24.com/p2159495.html
> ...


I can easily find this one, does it works 100%?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

#fdh said:


> I may use this way just one or two times before I have to leave in a few days for a trip, the actual fork is creaking so bad that I'm not feeling safe riding it, needs investigation.
> 
> Fox Gold 20w
> Rockshox 5WT for the damper ([email protected]° cst)
> ...


I think for the damper oil, use 5W Maxima Fork Oil. Don't know if the Rockshox stuff is the same or not.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

#fdh said:


> I can easily find this one, does it works 100%?


Are you referring to the Parktool or the Unior?
Both work, but the Unior is more deep and easy to use, I prefer using the Unior because allow me to have more purchase and I don't have to fully compresse the air shaft to remove it.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I will post some photos later using the Parktool and the Unior.


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
Very convenient and fast.
Thanks!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

#fdh said:


> The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
> Very convenient and fast.
> Thanks!


Check if it's that number, they have a couple of very similar tools.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

#fdh said:


> The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
> Very convenient and fast.
> Thanks!


The photos as promised:

Unior 1670.5/4








Parktool FR-5.2








Both tools have the splines with +/- the same length, but because the Parktool FR-5.2 is shallower it doesn't have full purchase and only 3mm or 4mm of the splines are inserted, on the other hand the Unior is fully inserted and I don't even need to force the shaft.


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Aglo said:


> The photos as promised:
> 
> Unior 1670.5/4
> View attachment 1221003
> ...


Great, thanks! That's what I've got.

Just arrived the CRC Mattoc Pro, new seals, travel reduction kit and a nice stealth decals kit that I didn't expect for.

Unfortunately it's too late to shorten it and mount on my bike, I have to wait until I'll be back to my home in November

Two thumbs down for CRC tho, canceled my order two times for an "internal error", slow, vague and useless replies, even unable to send me a working shipment tracking.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion video (Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion) shows how to replace the HBO cone (6:33 - 7:45). I assume that this is how I install the High Flow piston? I haven't received the package yet and haven't seen the instructions, just trying to make sure I have all the tools ready. Looks like I must get shaft clamp.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion video (Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion) shows how to replace the HBO cone (6:33 - 7:45). I assume that this is how I install the High Flow piston? I haven't received the package yet and haven't seen the instructions, just trying to make sure I have all the tools ready. Looks like I must get shaft clamp.


Yes replacing the HBO cone is one step away from swapping the whole piston. Whether you need a shaft clamp or not depends on how tight the rebound tube is on the rebound end-cap. 
Wrapping a bike tube around it (increases grip and diameter) is a great way to remove small parts without a shaft clamp.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Is anybody else riding a mattoc/magnum on primarily "trail" type riding where there are plenty of roots, rocks and mild drops, but a good lap time is primarily made on the climbs and not the descents? I'm wondering how their IRT/main pressures stack up, and if emphasis on climbing dictates a larger air pressure split than if it was more descent focused.

I'm about 230+ ride weight, have a magnum pro at 140mm travel with 65 psi main and 120 psi IRT, 2 clicks LSC, 1 click HSC and 2 clicks rebound. Also running a mcleod 165x38 at 185 psi with a 2.65 leverage ratio. 

So far it gives me good mid support, and better small bump than any fork Ive had. I'm spoiled by the comfort and probably dont run as much LSC as I should since I lose a bit of small bump compliance. The fork is surely out performing the x-fusion and the fox that was on the bike before, but just cause its better doesnt mean Ive found whats best. Wondering what other guys that care about pedaling uphill are running?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> Is anybody else riding a mattoc/magnum on primarily "trail" type riding where there are plenty of roots, rocks and mild drops, but a good lap time is primarily made on the climbs and not the descents? I'm wondering how their IRT/main pressures stack up, and if emphasis on climbing dictates a larger air pressure split than if it was more descent focused.
> 
> I'm about 230+ ride weight, have a magnum pro at 140mm travel with 65 psi main and 120 psi IRT, 2 clicks LSC, 1 click HSC and 2 clicks rebound. Also running a mcleod 165x38 at 185 psi with a 2.65 leverage ratio.
> 
> So far it gives me good mid support, and better small bump than any fork Ive had. I'm spoiled by the comfort and probably dont run as much LSC as I should since I lose a bit of small bump compliance. The fork is surely out performing the x-fusion and the fox that was on the bike before, but just cause its better doesnt mean Ive found whats best. Wondering what other guys that care about pedaling uphill are running?


That's going to depend 100% on your riding style as hell. Do you sit and spin? Or do you stand a smash?

If you sit and spin you will be able to keep the fork a lot softer. If you stand and smash you are going to clearly need it firmer.

I climb seated, so I run my fork as plush as I can without any noticeable hindrance to climbing ability.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

R_Pierce said:


> That's going to depend 100% on your riding style as hell. Do you sit and spin? Or do you stand a smash?


It's a bit of both. When possible Ill sit and spin to conserve energy, but some sections just need to be hammered out. I ride a bit of SS as well, so I'm no strange to climbing out of the saddle. I do understand that pressures and settings are entirely dependent on the bike, the individual, the terrain, etc. I guess I'm most curious about what kind of split others run. I see its popular to start with 2:3 main:IRT ratio, and take it up to 1:2 for more aggressive riding. Surely XC climbing isn't considered more aggressive riding, but would they not also benefit from a larger split due to extra mid support?


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GuitsBoy said:


> It's a bit of both. When possible Ill sit and spin to conserve energy, but some sections just need to be hammered out. I ride a bit of SS as well, so I'm no strange to climbing out of the saddle. I do understand that pressures and settings are entirely dependent on the bike, the individual, the terrain, etc. I guess I'm most curious about what kind of split others run. I see its popular to start with 2:3 main:IRT ratio, and take it up to 1:2 for more aggressive riding. Surely XC climbing isn't considered more aggressive riding, but would they not also benefit from a larger split due to extra mid support?


Very possible. I find with too large of a split (too high of IRT) I don't like how harsh the initial stroke gets. I know some others (like Mullen) that run a pretty high IRT but also ride fairly aggressive.

If you look back a few pages a few of us posted our IRT/Main splits.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.

47 psi with IVA full volume
42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Yes replacing the HBO cone is one step away from swapping the whole piston. Whether you need a shaft clamp or not depends on how tight the rebound tube is on the rebound end-cap.
> Wrapping a bike tube around it (increases grip and diameter) is a great way to remove small parts without a shaft clamp.


Ok, thanks


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

nikon255 said:


> from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.
> 
> 47 psi with IVA full volume
> 42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
> 42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)


Can you please post the excel spreadsheet? I would love to play with the values. Btw, how did you measure volume of pos, neg and IRT chambets?
Tnx


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.
> 
> 47 psi with IVA full volume
> 42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
> 42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)


While you're there. Do you want to plot the derivative of each slope to show the resulting spring-rate?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

hmm unfortunately I dont understand your request. English is not my mother language.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> hmm unfortunately I dont understand your request. English is not my mother language.


Derivative is dy/dx in maths. The change in spring force for every change in mm compression.

Does that help?


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## rclugnut (Feb 17, 2012)

Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft. 

I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it? 

Probably going to pull it apart soon enough and take a look at the air spring anything is wonky... It is the dorado, per the top cap. I pulled that off and there's nothing obvious going on in the upper portion for what that's worth. 

Thanks in advanced


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

rclugnut said:


> Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft.
> 
> I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it?
> 
> ...


I'd suggest the negative chamber has bath oil in it. Service will sort that and install IRT if you want tunable mid-end stroke support.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

rclugnut said:


> Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft.
> 
> I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it?
> 
> ...


Mattoc has huge volume in positive chamber and air spring is linear or somehow digressive at beggining. At 140mm and with your weight volume reduction is neccessary. So you need IVA or IRT.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here. 

I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:

65 degree head angle bike
175lbs
50psi on IVA with no volume spacers (I even removed the volume spacers below the seal in an attempt to get a more linear spring curve)
LSC 2 clicks in
HSC open
HBO open

very happy with the midrange support of the fork, but it seems like even at full open, the HSC is still too harsh and I never use all the travel even on 3-4 foot drops to flat, and i can't lower my psi without making the fork feel dive-y

I've changed shims on my Manitou Minute before, I'm wondering, is there a specific shim I can remove to decrease the HSC damping, or any thought anyone might have about this issue?

EDIT: looking back further through this thread, it sounds like the general idea is that the 8mm ID shims control the low to mid speed events and the 10mm ID shims control the high speed, so absent any other advice, I might try removing the smaller OD of the 10mm ID shims and seeing how the fork acts.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here.
> 
> I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:
> 
> ...


The 8mm shims provide daming over the entire velocity range. The 10mm shims are what the external hsc adjuster adds preload to. In the open position (HSC full out, no preload or a little float), the 10mm shims add meaningful damping. It's only after they are preloaded that they add damping.

The MC2 damper has no way to control how much float there is on the 10mm shims when in the open position. Because of this, I do not recommend end users start adjusting the MC2 shim stacks themselves. Adding or removing shims from either stack changes the spacing between the piston and the HSC adjuster. If not calculated correctly, the HSC adjuster range shifts leaving you with improper damper function of the 10mm stack. Anywhere from from a HSC adjustment that no longer functions to an adjuster that (when open) is the equivalent to running 2-3 clicks of HSC is possible with only a few shims added or subtracted.

I would check your damper oil height to make sure it's not adding to much progression or hydrolocking your fork. This is your likely issue.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here.
> 
> I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:
> 
> ...


You don't want to reduce HSC in the compression stack alone as that will just upset the pressure ratios and lead to cavitation under the rebound piston on compression. Which sucks in air and foams up your oil.
If you are riding sharp stuff and fast compression then my high flow piston will reduce HSC from the rebound piston.

But first you need to check your oil levels. First thing to do is pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. If you cannot then the oil is foamed and increased in volume.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Easier job, but not professional (according to service manual) is to unthread damper top cap and just check oil high at fork full extension.

Dougal, its not serious sin, right?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Easier job, but not professional (according to service manual) is to unthread damper top cap and just check oil high at fork full extension.
> 
> Dougal, its not serious sin, right?


That's allowed. Differences are minor.


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## rclugnut (Feb 17, 2012)

Dougal said:


> I'd suggest the negative chamber has bath oil in it. Service will sort that and install IRT if you want tunable mid-end stroke support.





nikon255 said:


> Mattoc has huge volume in positive chamber and air spring is linear or somehow digressive at beggining. At 140mm and with your weight volume reduction is neccessary. So you need IVA or IRT.


Thanks for the replies. We'll have to tear it down sometime this week to see if that's the case.

Would using grease or similar be a good stand in for the irt kit? Or would this too migrate to the negative air spring? Not sure how they fill and equalize?

Thanks


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> But first you need to check your oil levels. First thing to do is pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. If you cannot then the oil is foamed and increased in volume.





mullen119 said:


> I would check your damper oil height to make sure it's not adding to much progression or hydrolocking your fork. This is your likely issue.


Thanks for the replies, guys! I've always had this issue, thought multiple services, and I use one of those motorcycle oil height setting tools for setting the oil height, so I don't think the oil height is the issue, but i'll double check it - i've been known to make dumber mistakes than this.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> Thanks for the replies, guys! I've always had this issue, thought multiple services, and I use one of those motorcycle oil height setting tools for setting the oil height, so I don't think the oil height is the issue, but i'll double check it - i've been known to make dumber mistakes than this.


Since you have IVA and not IRT, you can check if oil level is causing travel limitations by simply compressing the fork with a pump attached. With the Equalization port open with the pump attached, you should be able to bottom the fork with very little resistance. If you can't, oil level is the most likely cause.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Since you have IVA and not IRT, you can check if oil level is causing travel limitations by simply compressing the fork with a pump attached. With the Equalization port open with the pump attached, you should be able to bottom the fork with very little resistance. If you can't, oil level is the most likely cause.


awesome, thanks, i'll give that a shot!


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Just picked up a year old Mattoc Pro - the 120mm 29+ model, used. I was told it was ridden lightly for about a year and never serviced. When should I have it opened up for service or is there anything I can do with basic tools plus the Mattoc tool kit? I am open to changing the top seals with these - https://www.enduroforkseals.com/pro...nduro-rwc-hy-glide-wiper-seals/EFS-HG-34.html

And adding this oil - https://ktmtwins.com/products/motor...W2nVloFmUwesMJZnIuWkQd0RBac4ZqjMaAhnMEALw_wcB

Should I wait another season for this service or open it up now? Fork still looks real good and not abused at all, just wanted to make sure it stays that way. Any input appreciated!

I also have a Marvel Pro from 2015, bought new, and have never opened that up...still works great with approx. 800-1000 miles on it. I have new seals going in that this winter. Not one issue with that fork! :thumbsup:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Just picked up a year old Mattoc Pro - the 120mm 29+ model, used. I was told it was ridden lightly for about a year and never serviced. When should I have it opened up for service or is there anything I can do with basic tools plus the Mattoc tool kit? I am open to changing the top seals with these - https://www.enduroforkseals.com/pro...nduro-rwc-hy-glide-wiper-seals/EFS-HG-34.html
> 
> And adding this oil - https://ktmtwins.com/products/motor...W2nVloFmUwesMJZnIuWkQd0RBac4ZqjMaAhnMEALw_wcB
> 
> ...


The Manitou low friction seals are the best seals on the market. Very low friction with better sealing than any other seal tested. I highly recommend going that route if you change seals. (That's what should be in your fork now, if they are not leaking, ride them out another year)

Motorex oil is very good, you want 15cst though, so go 2.5wt.

Bath oil is Motorex power synthetic 4t 5w40


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> The Manitou low friction seals are the best seals on the market. Very low friction with better sealing than any other seal tested. I highly recommend going that route if you change seals. (That's what should be in your fork now, if they are not leaking, ride them out another year)
> 
> Motorex oil is very good, you want 15cst though, so go 2.5wt.
> 
> Bath oil is Motorex power synthetic 4t 5w40


Thanks mullen! I just picked the oil I saw on the Manitou service video, but will go with the 2.5 wt, or this - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/fork-oil/racing-fork-oil-25w/

On a side note - just noticed this new on their site....might be worth a shot if it compares to the fork oil! - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Thanks mullen! I just picked the oil I saw on the Manitou service video, but will go with the 2.5 wt, or this - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/fork-oil/racing-fork-oil-25w/
> 
> On a side note - just noticed this new on their site....might be worth a shot if it compares to the fork oil! - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/


The stock damper oil is Maxima 5wt. The Motorex equivalent is 2.5wt


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Yesterday I opened my Mattoc Pro to reduce the travel, found it bone dry (again, brand new one purchased from CRC)!
Barely a couple of drops of bath oil came out.
Today I'll check the damper oil level, I know that it should be 77mm high, but I'm wondering if some oil will be "trapped" inside the cartridge, so maybe few mm less is ok?

On a side note, I tried to use an 8mm socket that I turned down myself, it was nowhere thin enough (about 10.1mm outer diameter) and it broke anyway trying to loosen the valve, so I went to the 4mm allen method and it was super easy


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

#fdh said:


> Today I'll check the damper oil level


Damper oil level was way too high, about 71/72 mm from the top of the stanchion, had to remove little more than 4cc

So, no bath oil and too much damper oil, shame on you M.


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## Josh-L (May 5, 2011)

So I don't have the time or patience to read the previous 4,000 plus comments and was hoping I could get some help!

I picked up a new Mattoc Expert 160 on ebay for $180. It's a 2014 model though. It's going on my all mountain hardtail with 26 inch wheels. I have no idea where to begin with setting it up. I'd appreciate any help. I weigh 170 pounds for reference and will be running 26x2.4 tires if that matters.

Other question is the specs say the brake is "180 post"... so can I go with a 160 for weight savings or do I have to go 180? And if I go 180 do I still need an adaptor? Will be using Shimano XT.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

#fdh said:


> Damper oil level was way too high, about 71/72 mm from the top of the stanchion, had to remove little more than 4cc
> 
> So, no bath oil and too much damper oil, shame on you M.


That is odd. I've never seen a new fork from Manitou without bath oil. Did you do a push-check on the damper shaft before removing oil? When the legs are off you push the damper shaft and if it can be compressed all the way in you're good.



Josh-L said:


> So I don't have the time or patience to read the previous 4,000 plus comments and was hoping I could get some help!
> 
> I picked up a new Mattoc Expert 160 on ebay for $180. It's a 2014 model though. It's going on my all mountain hardtail with 26 inch wheels. I have no idea where to begin with setting it up. I'd appreciate any help. I weigh 170 pounds for reference and will be running 26x2.4 tires if that matters.
> 
> Other question is the specs say the brake is "180 post"... so can I go with a 160 for weight savings or do I have to go 180? And if I go 180 do I still need an adaptor? Will be using Shimano XT.


A 160mm rotor won't reach the brake. You'll need 180mm and it'll bolt straight on. Start with 50psi and rebound halfway.

Tuning guide for all suspension here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide
50psi and half rebound will be a good place to start.


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## #fdh (Oct 15, 2018)

Dougal said:


> That is odd. I've never seen a new fork from Manitou without bath oil. Did you do a push-check on the damper shaft before removing oil? When the legs are off you push the damper shaft and if it can be compressed all the way in you're good.


No, i checked the damper oil level with the fork already remounted, should it be fine?


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## Josh-L (May 5, 2011)

Dougal said:


> A 160mm rotor won't reach the brake. You'll need 180mm and it'll bolt straight on. Start with 50psi and rebound halfway.
> 
> Tuning guide for all suspension here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide
> 50psi and half rebound will be a good place to start.


Thanks!


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## Josh-L (May 5, 2011)

One more question... Will dropping the travel from 160 to 140 help it climb better?


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Josh-L said:


> One more question... Will dropping the travel from 160 to 140 help it climb better?


From a geometry and body position perspective, yes--the lower the front end the better. (From an actual fork performance perspective, no idea.)


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## rclugnut (Feb 17, 2012)

I have a similar era fork and I believe it's a 160 lowered to 140, gotta tear it apart still... Anyway I found it to be overly linear, and it was riding super deep in the travel, not confidence inspiring. A user stated a few posts back that I needed IVA or IRT to get some progression in the spring. I may also have oil in my negative air chamber. Long story short, doesn't sound like the mattoc likes to be lowered without adjusting the air spring. 

On the topic of long travel hard tails, I ride an on one 456, currently using a float 32 (mattoc may replace this). I didn't like it at 150, felt it got too twitchy in deep compressions from the hta angle change. Dropped to 130, problem went away, miss the slackness but bike rides much better.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

*shim pile*

The rebound damping on my Mattoc Pro v1 went away, so I disassembled the fork. I found a mangled mess--the rebound damper (outer) piston AND the HBO cone & inner (blue) piston had come unthreaded. There was a "de-stacked" assortment of 9mm-13mm shims floating in the damper body.









@Dougal, the threads all seem fine (cone & outer piston). Can I just reassemble this with new shims? Do you sell a kit with the various 9mm-13mm shims? I looked on Shockcraft but only found ABS+.

And can you recommend a stack configuration for a 140 lb wanna-be enduro racer? I found your excellent ABS+ guide (https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/wysiwyg/Manitou ABS+Tuning Guide.pdf) but I think it's not relevant, right?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> The rebound damping on my Mattoc Pro v1 went away, so I disassembled the fork. I found a mangled mess--the rebound damper (outer) piston AND the HBO cone & inner (blue) piston had come unthreaded. There was a "de-stacked" assortment of 9mm-13mm shims floating in the damper body.
> 
> View attachment 1224069
> 
> ...


Sure we can get you some better shims. Probably low mile used vs new but they'll be fine. Send us an email.

The ABS+ principles still work for the MC^2 compression stack, but not for rebound. You may or may not want a faster rebound range. I'd recommend (of course) the high flow piston since you're in there already.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

By the way--for those considering using the 4mm allen wrench approach, a ratcheting screwdriver with appropriate allen bit is quite handy--you can easily keep pressure on the bit (pushing back against the spring) while turning it.

Thanks as always, Dougal, for the advice. Looking forward to the fancy new piston.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

I have done service to my CRC mattoc, bought this Summer it has been great for bike parks, but it had a good amount of stinction off the top, not smooth in the first 2 cm (at least compared to my dvo diamond).
I opened it and found that it was completely dry, not a single drop came out.
I know for sure that lowers oil didn't migrate into damper because i can get full travel without issues.

Put 7 cc per side of supergliss 100k now it is working very smooth.

I found a spacer on the rebound rod, similar to the one on the air side but bigger.
It isn't present on the service video and i didn't have it on my old mattoc.
Do you know why they put it?


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

Just wanted to lower my fork.
The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.

Can this be solved with a heatgun, guessing it has red-loctite, and a new shaft foot damper?

Its the internal 8mm hex bolt that has sheared of.
Or do I need a new "ZUGSTUFE MANITOU MATTOC PRO 26/27.5 BOOST 141-30996-K003""

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-expert-comp-manitou.html


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Here is my new (lightly used 17) Mattoc Pro 120mm 29+ fork. Stripped the stock decals and added these Slik graphics in stealth black for a more understated look on the front end of my Stache build. Wondering if I should open it up and check the fluid levels before mounting it? It has around 100 hours on, so maybe ride it for a season then open it. Can't wait to dial it in and finally see/feel how a 34mm fork performs on the trail!
:thumbsup:

https://www.slikgraphics.com/collections/fork-decals-manitou/products/manitou-mattoc-2-pro-decal-kit


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I would definitely service the lowers after 100 hours when the fork is already on the table.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Langestrom said:


> Just wanted to lower my fork.
> The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
> Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.
> 
> ...


That is the pro model. The pro shaft foot has smaller threads than the expert/comp version.

Did you get the right one?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Here is my new (lightly used 17) Mattoc Pro 120mm 29+ fork. Stripped the stock decals and added these Slik graphics in stealth black for a more understated look on the front end of my Stache build. Wondering if I should open it up and check the fluid levels before mounting it? It has around 100 hours on, so maybe ride it for a season then open it. Can't wait to dial it in and finally see/feel how a 34mm fork performs on the trail!
> :thumbsup:
> 
> https://www.slikgraphics.com/collections/fork-decals-manitou/products/manitou-mattoc-2-pro-decal-kit


Damn that decal kit looks good. I may be copying that color scheme for mine.

And yes on the oil change (lowers at a minimum)


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

Dougal said:


> That is the pro model. The pro shaft foot has smaller threads than the expert/comp version.
> 
> Did you get the right one?


Yes, I found the right one. Placed a order yesterday (Swedish time ).
Now I just have to figure out how to swap the shaft foot.


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## brankulo (Aug 29, 2005)

I recently completed bike build and for some reason i thought it would be a good idea to go with pike. 2018 rc3 1600, 27.5. Been fox fork user for past 10 years and thought i would try something else. No matter what i do, i cant make the fork to feel right. Doing some research i found that basically the damper is crap. What i also found was great reviews of mattoc. Seriously considering to sell pike and get mattock.i am in us and looks like not much support here. I can do basic maitenance of lowers oil change providing that the steps are similar to other forks, but is there a service place in the us for more complicated stuff. Also please tell me mattoc is better than pike. Thinking mattoc pro version. I am tottaly dissapointed with pike.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

brankulo said:


> I recently completed bike build and for some reason i thought it would be a good idea to go with pike. 2018 rc3 1600, 27.5. Been fox fork user for past 10 years and thought i would try something else. No matter what i do, i cant make the fork to feel right. Doing some research i found that basically the damper is crap. What i also found was great reviews of mattoc. Seriously considering to sell pike and get mattock.i am in us and looks like not much support here. I can do basic maitenance of lowers oil change providing that the steps are similar to other forks, but is there a service place in the us for more complicated stuff. Also please tell me mattoc is better than pike. Thinking mattoc pro version. I am tottaly dissapointed with pike.


If you can change the oil in the lowers of other forks, you can more or less service the mattoc yourself, its an open bath fork meaning theres no complicated damper cartridge, you just need to take your time and you're pretty safe. The video below is the oil change service guide for the mattoc, very easy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Langestrom said:


> Yes, I found the right one. Placed a order yesterday (Swedish time ).
> Now I just have to figure out how to swap the shaft foot.


A 10mm shaft clamp and you'll be sorted.


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

*Mattoc Problems*

So I have had a mattoc for 3 years now and it's been great...Until it hasn't.
My Mattoc Pro was excellent, but didn't match bike colour scheme, so a red Pro 2 came on sale at CRC and ordered it.
Boom, it arrives, I drop the lowers, check oil heights (as we know sometimes these things come dry, so worthwhile just checking when you get a new fork), reassemble and go on my merry way.
A few weeks later I notice my rebound knob will not turn. Go through to LBS, they disasemble and sorted (with a bit of pfaff).
Few weeks go by and I want to do a lowers oil change. Take my 8mm to remove the rebound side and it slips! I think I've stripped the thing, but alas it's similar to what Langestrom had above, except that the 8mm has a vertical crack down it!
So we go through some hassle to sort that out.
Pass a few months, and on a descent i hear what sounds like a rather harsh bottom out noise...This is around August 2017.
So I decide to open it up to check...Only to find the rebound damper assemble piston head has come off, the HBO thing has smashed into the bottom of the damper assemble and the entire shaft inside the stanchions is bent...
I contact Hayes, they're not sure what happened. I contact CRC, they send a courier to South Africa to collect it, take it to Ireland, fix it and send it back...With our local Post Office after I requested a courier (at my expense even), knowing very well that our Post Office is pretty useless.
Anyway a year goes by with a few lowers oil changes, wiper seals and one damper service.
Last week...ad oddly familiar noise...so I open up the fork AGAIN, only to find the identical damage inside.
See pics attached 
So, my question...has anyone experienced anything similar, or know what the actual problem may be? My LBS suspension guys believe it to be due to the chassis not being stiff enough to deal with bottom-out forces.
For reference I'm about 74kg kitted, 90PSI in IRT and 50 to 60PSI in the main air shaft...so rather hard for my weight i guess.
Hope nobody else has had the same problem.
But anyway , now CRC want to get it back there AGAIN to check, and I am trying to avoid it as it's a massive time problem.
Any advice/constructing comments or questions would be welcome 
And before anyone asks, yes servicing done to spec. Used all the online material, as well as directly contacting Hayes to confirm a few things which were every so slightly ambiguous in the documentation.

Cheers!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cuan said:


> So I have had a mattoc for 3 years now and it's been great...Until it hasn't.
> My Mattoc Pro was excellent, but didn't match bike colour scheme, so a red Pro 2 came on sale at CRC and ordered it.
> Boom, it arrives, I drop the lowers, check oil heights (as we know sometimes these things come dry, so worthwhile just checking when you get a new fork), reassemble and go on my merry way.
> A few weeks later I notice my rebound knob will not turn. Go through to LBS, they disasemble and sorted (with a bit of pfaff).
> ...


Stuff came loose once and from then it's been a muppet-wrench cycle. The only thing that can bend the damper tube like that is incorrect and extremely rough assembly. It hasn't gone in correctly; likely from the top seal head on the rebound assembly being unscrewed a little and out of place; and has been forced by winding up the end-cap anyway. That force has buckled the tube.

Once ridden the out-of-line rebound HBO cone and compression HBO cup have hit each other and damaged each other.

The cracked shaft foot is from over-torque.

Who did the damper service?

I wouldn't take any recommendation from that LBS suspension guy. That's not how this works at all.

I have replacement HBO cups now so you don't have to replace the whole compression damper. You will need to replace the whole rebound damper.


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Stuff came loose once and from then it's been a muppet-wrench cycle. The only thing that can bend the damper tube like that is incorrect and extremely rough assembly. It hasn't gone in correctly; likely from the top seal head on the rebound assembly being unscrewed a little and out of place; and has been forced by winding up the end-cap anyway. That force has buckled the tube.
> 
> Once ridden the out-of-line rebound HBO cone and compression HBO cup have hit each other and damaged each other.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dougal.
CRC were the last to work on the fork after it did the identical thing last year or so this time and they (apparently as they wouldn't give me a description of all the work done) from what I can tell replaced the rebound damper and the HBO cup. Since then all I did once was remove the damper at the top to check oil level, and one 2 separate occasions, drop the lowers, once again to drop the oil level. So no fiddling with the rebound from my side (unless winding it out with the blue dial before removing the lowers counts?).
My questions is why would it have taken a little over a year to present itself again? Perhaps thats just how much "work" was required to sufficiently loosen stuff again to the point at which it failed?
I will see what the local agent has...although they are NOTORIOUS for being, let's say, reasonably useless with spares for the brands they carry.

Thanks again. Been following this thread on and off since 2015 when I first got my Mattoc Pro 1 and it's been a wealth of (sometimes over my head) information.
Cheers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Cuan said:


> Thanks Dougal.
> CRC were the last to work on the fork after it did the identical thing last year or so this time and they (apparently as they wouldn't give me a description of all the work done) from what I can tell replaced the rebound damper and the HBO cup. Since then all I did once was remove the damper at the top to check oil level, and one 2 separate occasions, drop the lowers, once again to drop the oil level. So no fiddling with the rebound from my side (unless winding it out with the blue dial before removing the lowers counts?).
> My questions is why would it have taken a little over a year to present itself again? Perhaps thats just how much "work" was required to sufficiently loosen stuff again to the point at which it failed?
> I will see what the local agent has...although they are NOTORIOUS for being, let's say, reasonably useless with spares for the brands they carry.
> ...


If the only damper service you did was from the top, I'm not sure how that could have caused such damage. Reinstalling the damper from the top it's almost impossible to overfill it to the point of hydraulic lock and likewise hard to damage it during reinstall.
It doesn't sound like you had enough riding to ingest enough oil for hydraulic lock either.

I had one fork look similar a year or so ago. I was only sent the photos as a shop was dealing with it. The owner of the fork wasn't giving any explanations as to what/how happened.


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

Dougal said:


> A 10mm shaft clamp and you'll be sorted.


Cool! 
Is there any loctite on it?

Then the next question.
For lowers I have a TF-tuned Lower Lube mix.
Whuddabout semi-bath oil?
Would Motul 2,5W work?









(Don't dare to ask that question in the swedish forum's mattoc thread, as it might ignite the Great oil war of 2018 again)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Langestrom said:


> Cool!
> Is there any loctite on it?
> 
> Then the next question.
> ...


I cannot recall if they had loctite or not. but if they did it was not enough to beat a shaft clamp.

Motul 2.5wt will work in the damper, but the low VI will mean it thickens up a lot more in the cold. Motul vi400 is much better as the damper fluid if you want to use that brand.

I don't have any experience with the tftuned bath oil. But it will likely work without issues. I use supergliss in summer and 0w40 polar lube in winter.

I'm amazed the swedes get that passionate about oil!


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

Dougal said:


> I cannot recall if they had loctite or not. but if they did it was not enough to beat a shaft clamp.
> 
> Motul 2.5wt will work in the damper, but the low VI will mean it thickens up a lot more in the cold. Motul vi400 is much better as the damper fluid if you want to use that brand.
> 
> ...


Motul seems to be what everybody stocks here, and what I can find information on.

Yeah, Oil, spoke nipple washers, geometry and.. well anything can set of a war it seems like Hahaha.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Cuan said:


> So, my question...has anyone experienced anything similar, or know what the actual problem may be?
> ....
> Any advice/constructing comments or questions would be welcome


I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?

My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.


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## phile (Mar 19, 2017)

Langestrom said:


> Just wanted to lower my fork.
> The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
> Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.
> 
> View attachment 1225171


How did you get the fork apart after the foot broke? I just did the same thing to mine...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phile said:


> I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?
> 
> My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.


The cone coming unscrewed would chew up shims, but not compress and buckle the internal damper tube.


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

See below.


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

phile said:


> How did you get the fork apart after the foot broke? I just did the same thing to mine...


Luckily it broke above the threads in the outer casing. I just had to unbolt the airshaft, pull the outer casing off and then get the broken part out with the allenkey.. Some members on the Swedish forums had to drill it out. :/


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## Cuan (Jan 5, 2016)

phile said:


> I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?
> 
> My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.


For sure, 100%. I actually said fek it to CRC and stripped the entire rebound assembly the other day. The HBO cone and rebound piston had both come loose.
Either way...I don't think things should be unscrewing themselves. Especially from the factory. The fact my exact for has done this twice now without anyone either time prior to the damage having worked on the rebound damper (only the compression to check oil height and replace damping fluid) really makes me think I at least got a dud. But even after CRC "fixed" it and replaced stuff, the same thing again? Meh, I dunno. Anyway, I seem to have rebuilt the rebound damper (as I had some spare parts which were not damaged in the previous time and LBS had another part or 2 from a fekked Mattoc), but my HBO cup is still pwned. So my plan is thus... Rebuild the compression damper as when I was cleaning the rebound damper I noticed bits of alu from the prev damage floating around, so it is likely pieces made their way into the damper itself. However...I cannot find an exploded view of the MC2 damper. I suspect disassembly, clean and rebuild it not difficult, just a little meticulous but without a diagram ... meh.
Then I could just remove the damaged portion of the HBO cone by like 15mm, clean it carefully and see whether there is any problem. That might just mean little/no HBO...Yes...I only suspect this MIGHT work.
But with the IRT that should be fine until I can source the actual part locally (considering how cheap the part if, it doesn't make sense for me to import it from overseas considering shipping costs).
Any thoughts, or anyone with a diagram of the MC2 damper parts/etc. I can pretty much see how most things come apart already, but you never know whether there's a sneaky spring or something or shim which was stuck to some other part and after cleaning comes off etc.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

I've never been really happy with my Pike on my YT Jeffsy 27, my Magnum Pro on my 29+ and my Auron on my Process 111 seem much better for an old man trying to keep up with the kids! The Pike just seems like a much more aggressive fork and not as smooth off the top. Anyways, I see the Expert on sale for nothing (like $225 after all the discounts) at Bikewagon so I pull the trigger. I figured it was a holdover, maybe a 17, but get it in and it says on the box manufactured 8/14!!! What the heck? Anyways, tempted to return, but I guess I'll give it a try. Any advice? Should I go ahead and add some oil in there? Also should or can I swap the cartridge from my Mag Pro to the Mattoc since I would prefer my YT to have the best


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kendunn said:


> I've never been really happy with my Pike on my YT Jeffsy 27, my Magnum Pro on my 29+ and my Auron on my Process 111 seem much better for an old man trying to keep up with the kids! The Pike just seems like a much more aggressive fork and not as smooth off the top. Anyways, I see the Expert on sale for nothing (like $225 after all the discounts) at Bikewagon so I pull the trigger. I figured it was a holdover, maybe a 17, but get it in and it says on the box manufactured 8/14!!! What the heck? Anyways, tempted to return, but I guess I'll give it a try. Any advice? Should I go ahead and add some oil in there? Also should or can I swap the cartridge from my Mag Pro to the Mattoc since I would prefer my YT to have the best


Expert works great for most people, you can upgrade the damper to the Pro version (which makes the whole fork a Pro) very easily. I have the bits listed here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-pro-mc2-upgrade-kit-manitou.html

Also air side you can drop in the IRT or IVA: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/suspension-parts/upgrade-parts/manitou-irt-iva-kits

Also one piece seals are lower friction, your fork may have the older two piece seals (seal and wiper): https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodon-seal-kit-manitou.html


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

I have a 2017 Mattoc Comp Boost with the ABS+ damper. I want to have some shims on hand for tuning. What are the ID of the shims? I think they are 8mm, but may be 10mm (or is that the Pro damper?). The tuning guide has a lot of info about external diameter and thickness, but nothing about ID.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Doug said:


> I have a 2017 Mattoc Comp Boost with the ABS+ damper. I want to have some shims on hand for tuning. What are the ID of the shims? I think they are 8mm, but may be 10mm (or is that the Pro damper?). The tuning guide has a lot of info about external diameter and thickness, but nothing about ID.


8mm.

This is your best value for shims. I still haven't cut one of these open to count them though: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/abs-tuning-kit-small-manitou.html


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> 8mm.
> 
> This is your best value for shims. I still haven't cut one of these open to count them though: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/abs-tuning-kit-small-manitou.html


Thanks. I actually need some 6mm ID for my Topaz and was going to get some for my Diamond and the wife's Mattoc. So I need a range of sizes.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

I'll be completely honest and say that I stripped the foot nut on the air spring side once on my 1st gen Mattoc. I was using the 8mm and forgot they were (kind of) reverse threaded. I say kind of because as most of us realize, it's actually not reverse threaded but due to the orientation, you do turn it clockwise to loosen.

It was the original air shaft so possibly could have asked Hayes for the warranty replacement to get the revised air shaft. Some did that, and I didn't see anyone post about being declined. However I caused the issue. So I bought the replacement air shaft.

I can't even claim that I had been drinking; I enjoy a beer while wrenching now and then, but no, I just forgot and it is *very* easy to ruin that alloy thread.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

My Mattoc Pro 2 has been really weird lately. When I'm riding it feels like something is loose in the front, like something loose in the handlebar area, but everything is tight. turns out its the fork, it's really harsh at low speed over small smooth rocks, etc.

But reading through the thread, when I adjusted air, at least 10-15 times, it was always with the bike upright, not upside down.

So ... how do I reset it all without taking it apart? Or do I have to take it apart? I don't have bath oil yet. 

Can I: turn bike upside down, attach pump, and fully extend the fork, then adjust for PSI and detach pump? 

Also, I need three materials to service the fork right? Motorex 2.5w, any synthetic 5w-40 (does this need to be motorex or can I just go to the auto store and grab engine oil) and slickoleum?

EDIT: Just went into my garage and see I have Maxima 5w, is that okay? Or should I get the motorex 2.5?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> My Mattoc Pro 2 has been really weird lately. When I'm riding it feels like something is loose in the front, like something loose in the handlebar area, but everything is tight. turns out its the fork, it's really harsh at low speed over small smooth rocks, etc.
> 
> But reading through the thread, when I adjusted air, at least 10-15 times, it was always with the bike upright, not upside down.
> 
> ...


If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.

Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.

Maxima 5wt is fine. Engine oils are all over the place for slipperyness. Best to use a brand and type that someone else has had success with.

For those bottom bolts. Remember that most torque wrenches don't work in reverse!


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Dougal said:


> If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.
> 
> Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.
> 
> ...


I meant to say the "looseness" felt like it was in the headset area, not the shock. But I feel like it's the shock causing that to feel in the headset area, like the feeling when a shock is packed down (but it's not). It's weird and developed recently even though I haven't touched the air in a little while. I'll investigate this further. Thanks.

I'll stick with motorex syn for now.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.
> 
> Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.
> 
> ...


I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!

Here are the RFF 7 specs:
Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
Viscosity @ 40 degC 19.98 cSt
>>Features
>Synthetic blend formula
>For cartridge and damper rod fork applications
>Advanced anti-friction and anti-stiction additive technology
>High VI formula provides consistent fade free performance
>Formulated for long term durability and component life


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!
> 
> Here are the RFF 7 specs:
> Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
> ...


A bit thicker than ideal. Will still work but you'll get more damping from the ports which can make it harsher on fast hits.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Dougal said:


> If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.
> 
> Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.
> 
> ...


I learned this the hard way.... Costly lesson


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!
> 
> Here are the RFF 7 specs:
> Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
> ...


Hang on. I think there's a typo in your specs. I have found errors in Torco spec sheets before.

The Torco RFF7 on the bottle is VI 285 and 5.05 cSt @100C. That puts it at 16.1 cSt @ 40C.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Hang on. I think there's a typo in your specs. I have found errors in Torco spec sheets before.
> 
> The Torco RFF7 on the bottle is VI 285 and 5.05 cSt @100C. That puts it at 16.1 cSt @ 40C.


Good catch there Dougal! I just noticed also that the label on the bottle does NOT match the specs online. The bottle of RFF 7 I have reads 5.05 cSt, which is the correct spec for the RFF 5, not the 7. I may need to contact Torco and see what they have to say about this. Now I really don't know what version I have in my bottle....even the picture on their site shows the RFF 5 with 5.05 cSt, same as my 7. Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Good catch there Dougal! I just noticed also that the label on the bottle does NOT match the specs online. The bottle of RFF 7 I have reads 5.05 cSt, which is the correct spec for the RFF 5, not the 7. I may need to contact Torco and see what they have to say about this. Now I really don't know what version I have in my bottle....even the picture on their site shows the RFF 5 with 5.05 cSt, same as my 7. Thanks!


Here are my corrected numbers, the torco spec chart seems to have had numbers jump a line and mess up the whole table, these now all line up with VI numbers:

RFF5 is 10.8/3.92 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 325.
RFF7 is 16.1/5.09 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 285.
RFF10 is 19.9/5.74 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 260.

If RFF7 was 5.05 cSt, that would give it a VI of 280. Clearly there are different ways to calculate which result in small differences.


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

It's fixed!

Went to Volvos mechanical workshop and got me a peice of delrin, wich I cut, then drilled and then filed.

The small retaining clip was a ***** to get of, mostly because I tried to get it of in the wrong direction. Clearly you should get it of towards the axle. Not the threads. But the fear of scratching the axle got the better of me.
The spring loaded balls diden't want to come out and play at the first. But a quick persuation by turning the rebound knob with a 5mm, socket and then blowing them out like the big bad wolf, did the trick.

Now to the scariest part. Clamping down on the axle.
First I diden't want to use too much force, but after the axle turned a bit in the delrin softjaw, I changed my mind. Half to a quarter more turn on the vice, and it woulden't turn any more, and the shaftfoot came off. It sat with some kind of loctite/threadlocker.

Putting it all back together was a breeze, found some light threadlock, put it back with my hands and lightly tightened it with a hex wrench.

Now I just have to go home, change my underpants, have a whisky and reasemble my fork.


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## Josh-L (May 5, 2011)

Will a 2014 Mattoc 26 fit a 27.5 tire? It's currently at 160 but I was planning on dropping it to 140.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

I was looking at putting my 3.8 fat tires on my 29+ Mag, they claimed it could be done, it has the room if it hit right, but the widest part of the tire is a little low in the crown and looks like it will not clear. Anyone found a fat tire that will hit it correctly? I was thinking maybe a 27.5 3.8 wheel on the front? I have my Mag on an El GOrdo that is running 29+ now, I have a fat bike, but its fully rigid, might me nice to have the suspension fork option sometimes


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Josh-L said:


> Will a 2014 Mattoc 26 fit a 27.5 tire? It's currently at 160 but I was planning on dropping it to 140.


yes, you need to install the 27.5 HBO cone which would have been included with that fork when new. if it's NOS then it's there.

easy to do when you have the Mattoc service kit or other appropriate tools and you're in there adding the travel spacers to the air spring rod.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kendunn said:


> I was looking at putting my 3.8 fat tires on my 29+ Mag, they claimed it could be done, it has the room if it hit right, but the widest part of the tire is a little low in the crown and looks like it will not clear. Anyone found a fat tire that will hit it correctly? I was thinking maybe a 27.5 3.8 wheel on the front? I have my Mag on an El GOrdo that is running 29+ now, I have a fat bike, but its fully rigid, might me nice to have the suspension fork option sometimes


They were designed for 3.4" max. Tyre sizing is, of course, highly variable from rubber maker to rubber maker.

You may need a Mastodon.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Dougal said:


> They were designed for 3.4" max. Tyre sizing is, of course, highly variable from rubber maker to rubber maker.
> 
> You may need a Mastodon.


I guess it was just 3.4, I thought I remember seeing it would take a 3.8 somewhere. Thats plenty anyways I guess, I have a rigid fatbike if I need more


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## ndg (Oct 1, 2010)

Well I'm confused. 

Just received a pair of "2016 26" 160mm Mattoc Pros" from Bike24 for the princely sum of €280. I ordered IRT at the same time (€60) and was expecting to upgrade the seals in short order to the latest spec. 

Having pulled them out of the box (which has a 2014/09 date code and a 12mm dia green sticker) they already have the new updated seals, along with a liberal coating of lube on the stanchions! So they've been reworked at some point and presumably will have the updated airshaft too. 27.5" conversion bits were included in the box along with spacers. 

So I'm confused what's going on, but happy that these are essentially pro 3 spec for £307 delivered to the UK.


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

Good find! Presumably the "26" puts off a lot of uniformed folks, hence the massive discount.

On a somewhat related note, is the accessories kit the same regardless of the spec? My Pro 3 27.5+/29 Boost 120 has the 26-to-27.5 HBO cones ( https://i.imgur.com/3EQBttE.jpg ), even though they are not needed.


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

*Lower Circus PRO to 90mm*

Hello, folks!

I want to ask you one question about manitou Circus PRO 100mm(which is Mattoc PRO in real, but with lower travel).
I bought this fork few days ago, and as it's arrived i went to my local Manitou dealer to lower it's travel to 90mm.

So, they said that they just add one spacer from air piston side(orange side, see excerpt from manitou manual, orange side)

"Adjust the travel of the fork setting the spacer amounts as shown below. The 100mm can convert down to 80mm and the 120mm can convert up to 140mm.To adjust the greenspacers first remove the air piston using a6mm hex wrench (Fig. A). After adjusting spacers reinstall air piston and torque to 15-20 in-lb [1.5-2.2 N m] The orange spacers can be removed by hand."







And that's it. No more actions.

When i went home, i check fork dimensions, so here they are
a2c is ~472mm
Legs from crown to to of the seals is only ~87mm..

When i push fork to the maximum travel(by hands, fork has no pressure in air spring) it has only 2-3mm of free space on legs.

So I'am guessing - is it possible to lower this fork to 90mm travel and what is wrong in my configuration? Maybe there must be one spacer on right side(currently there is no spacer on right side)

Thanks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

andrewshkovskii said:


> Hello, folks!
> 
> I want to ask you one question about manitou Circus PRO 100mm(which is Mattoc PRO in real, but with lower travel).
> I bought this fork few days ago, and as it's arrived i went to my local Manitou dealer to lower it's travel to 90mm.
> ...


Sounds like you are properly set at 90mm. Manitou is notoriously short on travel across their product line. The rubber bumper will compress a few millimeters if you hit it hard enough and push the oring to the crown. (Hopefully you never hit it that hard).

You can attach a pump and pull it extended well detaching the pump. This is how you Equalize the + and - spring chambers. Wherever the pump is detached, the fork will stay. You might gain a mm or 2 by doing this. Generally speaking, you will see 85-87mm of travel if set at 90 and that's normal

On a side note, the Circus Pro is not a shortened Mattoc Pro. It's a cross between a Mattoc Pro and Comp as well as having some of it's own technologies and parts that the Mattoc doesn't use.


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

mullen119 said:


> Sounds like you are properly set at 90mm. Manitou is notoriously short on travel across their product line. The rubber bumper will compress a few millimeters if you hit it hard enough and push the oring to the crown. (Hopefully you never hit it that hard).
> 
> You can attach a pump and pull it extended well detaching the pump. This is how you Equalize the + and - spring chambers. Wherever the pump is detached, the fork will stay. You might gain a mm or 2 by doing this. Generally speaking, you will see 85-87mm of travel if set at 90 and that's normal
> 
> On a side note, the Circus Pro is not a shortened Mattoc Pro. It's a cross between a Mattoc Pro and Comp as well as having some of it's own technologies and parts that the Mattoc doesn't use.


Oh, thanks for the information. I did't know about +/- chambers setup. Now dimensions are: a2c 479mm, legs 94mm. Looks like real 90mm. 

The only thing I afraid of right now - is it necessary to add spacer on the right side(green on diagram) in my case? Does it used to save form from any kind of damage when you hit it too hard?


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

andrewshkovskii said:


> The only thing I afraid of right now - is it necessary to add spacer on the right side(green on diagram) in my case? Does it used to save form from any kind of damage when you hit it too hard?


The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.

If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

otsdr said:


> The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.
> 
> If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...


This is correct. If the spacers under the bottom out bumper are not correct, you will have metal on metal contact sound when fully compressed from the hydraulic bottom out cones hitting each other. Sounds like they got it correct


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

otsdr said:


> The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.
> 
> If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...


The story continues.. So, there is some error in manual or something like that(mystery).

Guys from the service told me that when they pop out air spring bottom - there was 4(!!) spacers at bottom(orange) and 0 at top(green), so the only thing they did - they add one spacer to the top(green), that's all. So, it is seems that now fork has 90 mm travel.

After that they told me a story about their experience with manitou(remember - they are official manitou service in my country) is always like this - in manual they write one thing, but when it comes to deal with real a fork - there is another thing inside.

I'am will write to manitou tech support and ask them about spacers configuration for 90mm of travel.


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, I have looked again at the diagram, the spacers are 1 cm each. For your fork (80-100 Circus) there are only 3 valid configurations:
4 orange / 2 green - 80mm
3 orange / 1green - 90mm
2 orange / 0 green - 100mm

In your current configuration (4 orange, 1 green) the last 10 mm of travel are not accessible, you will need to remove one orange spacer. 
The HBO cones will indeed hit each other if you use less than two spacers on the orange side; this will most likely damage the cones and possibly bend the rebound rod.


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

otsdr said:


> Ok, I have looked again at the diagram, the spacers are 1 cm each. For your fork (80-100 Circus) there are only 3 valid configurations:
> 4 orange / 2 green - 80mm
> 3 orange / 1green - 90mm
> 2 orange / 0 green - 100mm
> ...


Hello, otsdr.
If you correct about orange spacers and travel limitations, will be this experiment correct(and if not - what experiment will be correct to prove that there is some travel limitations) - lower fork pressure and push it to the travel limit by hands, and after that measure travel by rubber band on the leg?
Thanks


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

The easiest way to do it is to just connect the pump, there is no need to lower the pressure. While the pump is connected the air can move freely between positive and negative and the fork can be cycled through its travel very easily. 

Don't forget to keep the fork at full extension while disconnecting the pump .


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

otsdr said:


> The easiest way to do it is to just connect the pump, there is no need to lower the pressure. While the pump is connected the air can move freely between positive and negative and the fork can be cycled through its travel very easily.
> 
> Don't forget to keep the fork at full extension while disconnecting the pump .


So, I did this and here is result: rubber on the leg is stopped at 87mm(this is distance between rubber and seal). And there is 2-3mm of travel between rubber and crown.

Well, i'am tried to push fork hard enough and it is compressed for fully 90mm, but in the end I think i can feel that something rubber has meet some obstacle and last few millimetres of travel was not linear in the mean of compression.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

andrewshkovskii said:


> So, I did this and here is result: rubber on the leg is stopped at 87mm(this is distance between rubber and seal). And there is 2-3mm of travel between rubber and crown.
> 
> Well, i'am tried to push fork hard enough and it is compressed for fully 90mm, but in the end I think i can feel that something rubber has meet some obstacle and last few millimetres of travel was not linear in the mean of compression.


Again, you are set correctly.


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.


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## andrewshkovskii (Dec 23, 2018)

otsdr said:


> I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.


They said that they only added one green spacer(they took one of the four spacers that comes with fork). I tend to trust them, I spend 20-30 minutes talking about that situation (and they took only 10$ for travel change  )

I think this could be an error in Manitou manual. Manitou event did not put correct travel change manual with fork  Or I just do not understand something.
But now i can't be fully sure about spacers configuration because I do not know spacers configuration before LBS(and even now), i need to get mattoc tool kit and check that by myself.

Anyway - thank you, guys, for you help and advices!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

otsdr said:


> I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.


The chart is clearly incorrect, the orange spacers should remain 4 at all times.

If you ran the 100mm set up it shows, you would actually get 120mm. It would extent 20mm farther ( from the removal of 2 green spacers) AND bottom out 20mm deeper( from removal of 2 orange spacers) netting a 40mm total change from the 80mm setting.

The Bottoming 20mm deeper is impossible
1, there isn't enough stanchion showing to bottom any deeper. 2, you can't chang the Bottoming point of a fork with hydraulic bottoming cones without changing the cones. If you make it bottom out deeper in the stroke, the cones will it each other, if it bottoms out earlier, the cones will not engage each other and you wont have a correctly functioning HBO circuit.

The error in the chart is noted, I will look into getting it corrected. For now, know that 4 orange is correct for a 80-100mm version of the fork.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

andrewshkovskii said:


> They said that they only added one green spacer(they took one of the four spacers that comes with fork). I tend to trust them, I spend 20-30 minutes talking about that situation (and they took only 10$ for travel change  )
> 
> I think this could be an error in Manitou manual. Manitou event did not put correct travel change manual with fork  Or I just do not understand something.
> But now i can't be fully sure about spacers configuration because I do not know spacers configuration before LBS(and even now), i need to get mattoc tool kit and check that by myself.
> ...


No need to take it apart. Again, your set up is correct. Dougal and I are both part of Hayes (owns Manitou), you can trust what either of us tell you.


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Hey all

I've had my Mattoc Pro 2 for a year now, done 3 lower services in that time and 2 damper bleeds, I've just got the IRT kit and new seals so I'm going to do a full service tomorrow. I wanted to confirm something first:

1) When bleeding the damper, the Manitou video says you're supposed to turn the rebound 3 clicks from 'full rebound', is this 3 clicks from full fast rebound (least amount of damping) or 3 clicks from slowest rebound (most amount of damping).

I can't remember which I've done in the past, but last time it was impossible to get a completely smooth feel when cycling the rebound rod, I seriously did it for about 30 minutes, going very slowly, fast, tapping the stanchion to allow any air bubbles to rise to the top and then waiting for them to dissapear.

Also:

2) how many ml of oil are we recommending in the lowers these days?
3) when compressing my fork and allowing it to rebound there is a slight 'squish' or 'whoosh' sound as the fork rebounds, I usually run my rebound quite fast, is this normal?

This fork has been wicked on my bike so far, paired with my DVO Topaz it's been a breeze to work on at home and has been fit and forget.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Steve.E said:


> Hey all
> 
> I've had my Mattoc Pro 2 for a year now, done 3 lower services in that time and 2 damper bleeds, I've just got the IRT kit and new seals so I'm going to do a full service tomorrow. I wanted to confirm something first:
> 
> ...


From full fast.

You are not really bleeding the damper when you do this, so don't worried about letting the bubbles dissapate. The reason you cycle the rebound damper is to get any large air pocket under the piston to rise so you can properly set the oil height. Air bubbles under the rebound piston will cause the oil height to show higher than it really is under use.



Steve.E said:


> 2) how many ml of oil are we recommending in the lowers these days?


7cc is spec. You can run up to 10cc before the risk of the damper ingesting oil becomes a issue. Motorex 4t 5w40 full synthetic is spec



Steve.E said:


> 3) when compressing my fork and allowing it to rebound there is a slight 'squish' or 'whoosh' sound as the fork rebounds, I usually run my rebound quite fast, is this normal?


Manitou uses small low speed port/orifice circuit and shim stacks that actually work. This means oil passes under the shims much more than other damper designs and that can be a little more noisy and is normal. If it's excessively loud, there may be an issue, but if not, that noise is why it works so well.



Steve.E said:


> This fork has been wicked on my bike so far, paired with my DVO Topaz it's been a breeze to work on at home and has been fit and forget.


Good the hear you are like liking it.


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Thank you


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Slight OT...

I have just been doing a service and seal inspect/replace on my dorados as they have been feeling harsh lately, even after my last fluid change so I thought i had buggered the damper bleed or over greased. Turns out i've manged along the way to give my air shaft rod a little nick, which I suspect has been the problem all along. Thoughts on this bleeding between the negative air chamber and the upper leg? On mid sized hits it would be sliding between the air chamber and the upper leg and possibly bleeding air out of the negative chamber. Its sitting about 160mm up from the base of the air piston.

Ill smooth it out as best i can but it looks like im up for a new air shaft assembly when Dougal is back in the workshop.









Edit:

Looks like its manged to chew the DU bush that sits in the air chamber end cap as well.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

I am losing confidence in Manitou and in their production tolerances. Mattoc boost that I bought came with quite some play between stanchins and lower legs. Consequently, during any side load, bushings didn't align with stanchions and there was crazy amount of stiction. CSU was also creaking, so my LBS replaced whole fork. (after 5 weeks, because hayes/manitou from germany was non responsive...)

So, I received a new fork and initially, the problem with the play was not noticeable. But after only 10 minutes, riding in a car park, problem came back again. Play between lowers and stanchios - a lot of stiction on any side loads. Also, I am not that agressive rider and I weigth only 72kg, so fork was not even under a lot of stress.

If I go back again, and they replace the lowers, what are the odds, that the fork will work properly? I mean, all bottom line forks that I tried (XCTs and XCMs, cheap old RST gilas, RS sektor) didn't have this problem and this one cost me around 700€..

sorry for the rant, but the whole situation put me in the bad mood. :/


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

It seems Manitou has bad QC with the new mattoc 3 series...

I now have two mattoc 3 boost, one with a creaking csu and one that was already changed by hayes for a new fork but now has scratched stanctions.
The first fork I bought had fretty bad stiction that was increasing every ride. When I opened it I found aluminum shawings underneath the foam rings, probably from the bushing install.
I then got new lowers and could not belive that there was the same issue with the replacement lowers! I then demanded a new fork. 
Now after some months of riding there are light scratch marks in the stanction as if the bushings are not smooth on some places. Cheched the oil levels everything ok. Again in service... 

But both my mattoc 3 dont feel nearly as smooth as my old mattoc 1. As in the post above I noticed a lot of stiction under side loadings.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> From full fast.
> 
> You are not really bleeding the damper when you do this, so don't worried about letting the bubbles dissapate. The reason you cycle the rebound damper is to get any large air pocket under the piston to rise so you can properly set the oil height. Air bubbles under the rebound piston will cause the oil height to show higher than it really is under use.
> 
> ...


Are you still using Fox gold as bath oil? Was about to order the motorex 5/40 but they have like 3 different full synthetics, the 2 stroke, 4 stroke, and something called Boxer 

But then I searched back and saw you mention Fox Gold.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jdang307 said:


> Are you still using Fox gold as bath oil? Was about to order the motorex 5/40 but they have like 3 different full synthetics, the 2 stroke, 4 stroke, and something called Boxer
> 
> But then I searched back and saw you mention Fox Gold.


Fox gold (and even better, supergliss) works great as long as the temperature is above about 40f. 4t works best across a broad range of temperatures. Whichever works best for your situation.

I change oils based on the season


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> Fox gold (and even better, supergliss) works great as long as the temperature is above about 40f. 4t works best across a broad range of temperatures. Whichever works best for your situation.
> 
> I change oils based on the season


Thank you. The coldest we get here in San Diego is around 40 once every few years and I don't leave the house. . 99% of the time it's above 50F

Fox Gold it is!


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Can somebody check what the exposed stanchion length on a 160mm travel 27.5" Mattoc (Pro) 1 should be? I converted wheel size from 26" to 27.5" and changed the spacers (and HBO cone) according to instructions. However, the travel setting should be the same as 170mm travel 26", with the spacer blocking the last 10mm of travel. I now have 170mm of exposed stanchion. Since the Mattoc in my memory shows 10mm more stanchion than travel, shouldn't it show 180mm in its current setting?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> Can somebody check what the exposed stanchion length on a 160mm travel 27.5" Mattoc (Pro) 1 should be? I converted wheel size from 26" to 27.5" and changed the spacers (and HBO cone) according to instructions. However, the travel setting should be the same as 170mm travel 26", with the spacer blocking the last 10mm of travel. I now have 170mm of exposed stanchion. Since the Mattoc in my memory shows 10mm more stanchion than travel, shouldn't it show 180mm in its current setting?


Total fork length (and exposed stanchion) is the same for 26-170mm and 27-160mm.

Measuring a 27-160mm fork here I get 170mm to the lowest point of the crown (inside the leg) and 180mm on the outside (higher point).


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I measured from the inside, so it should be fine then. Thanks for checking! I read several people measuring 180mm for a 26-170, so assumed I was short by 10mm. Apparently they measured the outside (which is illogical, since the fork can't travel past the lowest point on the inside of the leg).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lukam said:


> It seems Manitou has bad QC with the new mattoc 3 series...
> 
> I now have two mattoc 3 boost, one with a creaking csu and one that was already changed by hayes for a new fork but now has scratched stanctions.
> The first fork I bought had fretty bad stiction that was increasing every ride. When I opened it I found aluminum shawings underneath the foam rings, probably from the bushing install.
> ...


Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.

Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.
> 
> Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.


Thanks for the info.

Just got a call that my forks are repaired. New legs on one and legs+lowers on the other. 
I must say that manitou service is excellent!

Hope now they will not fail on me again


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, I considering giving my wives Mattoc Expert 27.5 160 a last upgrade to the best config I can get on her Mattoc. She's still not happy with the small bump sensitivity. I've tried different shim configs, upgraded the seals, have the IRT installed.

What I'm considering is buying a Mattoc pro 26 and frankenstein it into one fork and get the high flow piston and Motorex hydraulic oil from Shockcraft. The 41mm off-set instead of 44mm might be even helpful.


It must work though otherwise my wife will shoot me.

I'm also I'm considering lowering it to 150mm from 160mm to increase the negative chamber, but I don't know if this would make enough difference in small bump sensitivity to be worthwhile?


So basically what would improve small bump sensitivity:
- Upgrade to the pro dampers
- High flow piston
- Thinner oil
- larger neg. chamber due to 160->150mm


What do you guys reckon, would it make a lot of difference or is it going to be to minor to bother?


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

lukam said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Just got a call that my forks are repaired. New legs on one and legs+lowers on the other.
> I must say that manitou service is excellent!
> ...


I have nov tried my fork and for the first run I could not belive how good it was compared to my fox 36 grip2 worlds better small bump.
But every run the fork felt a little stiffer. After the 5th run the fork is extremely binding on any side load. :madman:
Any toughts?
The lowers date code is 18 and A.

I will chech the bushings for roundness if I can get a ID micrometer and report back.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

Yes, I have very similar experience with first and also replaced fork (boost matoc 3). I am not an expert on suspenaion, so I am not sure if this is the case, but to me it feels like the bushings inside the lowers unsit themselfs, become loos and than they are not in perfect contact with the stanchion. As a result, there is play and binding on any side load. 

Another wierd thing is, that there is a sticker on it, "27.5in x 100mm" even though it is a boost version, 110mm. 

I am not able to find any date code on the lowers, but the uppers are dated september 2017.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.
> 
> Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.


Dougal,
Are any of the other forks in line affected like the Mattoc 3 above? Looking for another Mastodon for my wife but she does not ride very hard and may not see something for a while.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

I have a stock expert and a pro, man the small bump stuff is what I love about it and why I traded my Pike for the Expert (but I am a Clyde). I would go with thinner oil first since its pretty easy and cheap. What grease did you reassemble with? That could cause some drag.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Ok, I considering giving my wives Mattoc Expert 27.5 160 a last upgrade to the best config I can get on her Mattoc. She's still not happy with the small bump sensitivity. I've tried different shim configs, upgraded the seals, have the IRT installed.
> 
> What I'm considering is buying a Mattoc pro 26 and frankenstein it into one fork and get the high flow piston and Motorex hydraulic oil from Shockcraft. The 41mm off-set instead of 44mm might be even helpful.
> 
> ...


For most female riders it's not just the difference in weight, but the fact they ride more rearwards and pump the bars less than stronger males do.

Mrs Dougal runs:
High Flow piston.
Softened compression stack (about 60% of stock)
7cSt oil.
IRT with 35psi in the bottom and 50psi in the top.

This is working very well. She still doesn't get full travel often, but that's fine as the response for small to mid stroke is what we were aiming for. The thinner oil is probably the least significant of all the changes.



lukam said:


> I have nov tried my fork and for the first run I could not belive how good it was compared to my fox 36 grip2 worlds better small bump.
> But every run the fork felt a little stiffer. After the 5th run the fork is extremely binding on any side load. :madman:
> Any toughts?
> The lowers date code is 18 and A.
> ...


Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.

I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.



s-master said:


> Yes, I have very similar experience with first and also replaced fork (boost matoc 3). I am not an expert on suspenaion, so I am not sure if this is the case, but to me it feels like the bushings inside the lowers unsit themselfs, become loos and than they are not in perfect contact with the stanchion. As a result, there is play and binding on any side load.
> 
> Another wierd thing is, that there is a sticker on it, "27.5in x 100mm" even though it is a boost version, 110mm.
> 
> I am not able to find any date code on the lowers, but the uppers are dated september 2017.


If a bushing unseats you will get about 5mm play at the wheel. It's quite rare for a bushing to unseat but extremely noticable if they do.
Any play in bushings is magnified by the leverage the fork has on them. A 0.15mm oversize bushing can feel enormous at the bars.



Aresab said:


> Dougal,
> Are any of the other forks in line affected like the Mattoc 3 above? Looking for another Mastodon for my wife but she does not ride very hard and may not see something for a while.


I have found (and fixed) the same issue in two 32mm forks which had castings updated around the same time. 
The engineers have the problem in hand, but we still need to fix any forks that have the problem.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.
> 
> I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.


Where did you get the burnishing tool? Would be a nice addition to my shop. you


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Where did you get the burnishing tool? Would be a nice addition to my shop. you


Made it.
I've got 30, 32, 34, 35 and 36mm burnishing heads for it. It's been invaluable across all brands of fork. Except Marzocchi as their stanchions are a different 35mm to everyone elses!

I made the shaft small enough that I can also do 28.6mm, but I won't bother making that head until I have the need.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Made it.
> I've got 30, 32, 34, 35 and 36mm burnishing heads for it. It's been invaluable across all brands of fork. Except Marzocchi as their stanchions are a different 35mm to everyone elses!
> 
> I made the shaft small enough that I can also do 28.6mm, but I won't bother making that head until I have the need.


I had a feeling that would be your answer.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

kendunn said:


> I have a stock expert and a pro, man the small bump stuff is what I love about it and why I traded my Pike for the Expert (but I am a Clyde). I would go with thinner oil first since its pretty easy and cheap. What grease did you reassemble with? That could cause some drag.


Slick Honey. Supergliss in the lowers.

You feel much difference in small bump between the expert and the pro?



Dougal said:


> For most female riders it's not just the difference in weight, but the fact they ride more rearwards and pump the bars less than stronger males do.
> 
> Mrs Dougal runs:
> High Flow piston.
> ...


So you mixed the two corex oils to get the thickness you wanted?

Does she run it 160mm or less? Would reducing from 160 to 150mm and the resulting larger neg. chamber make much difference or would it be hardly noticeable?

The forks actually performs quite well in the sense that she rips quite well on it and the faster she goes the more the fork disappears. But the times she's riding at 80% and below the lack of small bump sensitivity makes itself noticeable even if doesn't seem to impact traction that much.

Do I understand correctly, to upgrade the expert to the pro I would require:

- Mattoc Pro rebound shaft assembly
- Either the Pro MC2 HBO Cup OR the whole Pro MC2 compression assembly

So compression side changing the HBO cup would be sufficient? That would reduce the cost quite a bit.

Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Speaking of small bump, Adding another data point. 

Rebuilt with WPL oil everywhere (20wt in lowers and air spring, 2.5wt in damper, and light application of thier grease on dust seals/air piston) and fork has never felt better.

This combined the new dust seals takes mattoc to class leading low stiction imo. Better than my freshly Rebuilt 2018 factory RC2 36.

I did need to have Manitou replace one of my mattocs a few years back because of bushing bind, it was obvious though. Really felt it when on brakes and hitting large stuff head on. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> So you mixed the two corex oils to get the thickness you wanted?
> 
> Does she run it 160mm or less? Would reducing from 160 to 150mm and the resulting larger neg. chamber make much difference or would it be hardly noticeable?


I was selling a Hot Oil Clear which was 7 cSt. But we've since killed that product line as I think it caused more confusion than anything else. Shim Stack dampers don't care about oil viscosity until it gets too thick and port effects become large. So for almost all riders our Hot Oil Pink is perfect. If someone needs to go thinner then the Corex options remain.

Mrs Dougal was running at 26"-170mm setting, just changed it to 27"-160mm but the top-out heights and negative air sizes are the same.

If you want to try more negative air, just use the pump trick to shorten the fork to 150 or 140mm and see how it goes.
IMO you're better using IRT to run softer off the top than losing travel in the hope of gaining more negative air.



CS645 said:


> The forks actually performs quite well in the sense that she rips quite well on it and the faster she goes the more the fork disappears. But the times she's riding at 80% and below the lack of small bump sensitivity makes itself noticeable even if doesn't seem to impact traction that much.
> 
> Do I understand correctly, to upgrade the expert to the pro I would require:
> 
> ...


Yes you've got the Expert to pro change details correct. The Pro damper is also more sensitive than the Expert due to not having to flow as much oil through the piston.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

re: the rebound piston compression oil flow - in the Mattoc Expert, the rebound side has a "triangle" face shim which I assume is to allow compression oil flow, but there are two round 21mm shims outside a spacer shim, which may restrict it a bit. If I understand how the oil flow works (from the McLeod tuning information posted by Mullen showing the updated rebound shim diameter from 16 to 15mm), is there any chance, by reducing the backing (?) rebound shim diameters, say to 19mm, could that improve oil flow (at least a little) under compression, as a cheap alternative to the Pro damper and high-flow piston upgrades?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> re: the rebound piston compression oil flow - in the Mattoc Expert, the rebound side has a "triangle" face shim which I assume is to allow compression oil flow, but there are two round 21mm shims outside a spacer shim, which may restrict it a bit. If I understand how the oil flow works (from the McLeod tuning information posted by Mullen showing the updated rebound shim diameter from 16 to 15mm), is there any chance, by reducing the backing (?) rebound shim diameters, say to 19mm, could that improve oil flow (at least a little) under compression, as a cheap alternative to the Pro damper and high-flow piston upgrades?


The biggest difference is the ratio of piston to shaft.
Pro has a 16mm piston and 10mm shaft. So the shaft fills more of the volume behind the piston and less oil is required to flow through it.
Expert is around 31mm piston and 12.7mm shaft. So the piston has to flow comparatively more.

It's complicated to explain. But it's a real challenge to prevent the rebound bypass producing more damping than you want at high shaft speeds and smaller rebound pistons help that greatly. Which is why pretty much everyone does that in their high end forks.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Super. Order comming shortly.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.
> 
> I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.
> 
> ...


I'm angry!
Again aluminum particles in the lowers arround the bushings!
What are they doing!? This is now the third time I got lowers with alu particles inside. 
Also angry at myselt that I didn't pull them off and cleaned them before the first ride. Should have known better:madman:

The photos show both sides. On one side the bushings look clean but on the other side there seem to be alu particles stuck in the bushing coating.

Shoul I get them changed again? for the fourth time....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Run your fingernail over those things in the bushing surface. Are they embedded particles or holes?


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

Definitely embedded particles. I ran my fingernail over it and could scratch some of them out. And if I poin a light from the side I can see them protruding from the surface of the bushing. There is a lot of loose particles arround the edge of the bushing.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

Just cleaned the lowers and the oil was full of shiny particles. 
I have access to a ultrasonic cleaner. What do you think would it clean the particles from the bushings?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lukam said:


> Just cleaned the lowers and the oil was full of shiny particles.
> I have access to a ultrasonic cleaner. What do you think would it clean the particles from the bushings?


I think you'll have to pull any particles from the bushings yourself. Easy for the top ones, hard for the bottom.

I would get in contact with manitou again. They will sort this out and want to know why and how it happened.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Anyone know if there are different versions of the IRT? 

I'm trying to move it from my Mattoc 2 Pro to my Mattoc Plus Expert, and the piston doesn't seem to be fitting down into the stanchion. I didn't want to damage the piston o-ring by pushing too hard without knowing for sure that it should it should not fit!


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

The kit seems to be the same for both Pro and Expert ( https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-irt-kit-mattoc-pro-expert-634414 ). You should lightly grease the piston o-ring and the shaft anyway, once you do that it should be easier to install.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

otsdr said:


> The kit seems to be the same for both Pro and Expert ( https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-irt-kit-mattoc-pro-expert-634414 ). You should lightly grease the piston o-ring and the shaft anyway, once you do that it should be easier to install.


Crap, I had seen that too, and thought it should fit based on that, but I just realized that I have the Mattoc Plus comp, not Expert. I keep confusing the comp and expert. The exploded view of my fork doesn't list the IRT as an option either. Dang.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Did anyone try this?
https://www.facebook.com/IntendBC/posts/2218093111765972?__tn__=-R


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

RoboS said:


> Did anyone try this?
> https://www.facebook.com/IntendBC/posts/2218093111765972?__tn__=-R


What exactly is it? A different O-ring that has less friction?


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Vespasianus said:


> What exactly is it? A different O-ring that has less friction?


Yes, its pneumatic seal with lower friction


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

Looks one-way, it won't work on forks with a negative air spring unless you install two of them back-to-back.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Did anyone try this?
> https://www.facebook.com/IntendBC/posts/2218093111765972?__tn__=-R





Vespasianus said:


> What exactly is it? A different O-ring that has less friction?


It's a lip-seal orientated to the positive side. Fox used to use them on their FLOAT forks with coil negative. Won't work on any fork with air positive and won't make any useful difference in friction either.

The big problem with them is pumping oil and grease only in the direction of the lip.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Quick question for the mattoc 27,5+/29 version. I found a killer deal for the mattoc comp, but in the discription it states it's only possible to change the travel from 100mm to 80mm. https://www.bike24.com/p2304100.html?q=mattoc
According to the manitou website service guide that fork's travel is convertible anywhere from 100mm to 140mm. Which one is correct?? 
I wan't to replace my pike on my 29'er with this fork, but I need it at 140mm.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

hurck said:


> Quick question for the mattoc 27,5+/29 version. I found a killer deal for the mattoc comp, but in the discription it states it's only possible to change the travel from 100mm to 80mm. https://www.bike24.com/p2304100.html?q=mattoc
> According to the manitou website service guide that fork's travel is convertible anywhere from 100mm to 140mm. Which one is correct??
> I wan't to replace my pike on my 29'er with this fork, but I need it at 140mm.


Aftermarket can go to 140mm. That's likely an OEM fork which has shorter stanchions which limit the travel.

Hence the great price. It's a limited market.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Ah,too bad, thanks for your quick reply!

edit: just to be absolutely sure I sent them an email. If it's an OEM version only convertible to 80mm I'll keep on searching, otherwise I'm buying it. I'm done with thinkering with my pike and want to move on.


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

There's a slightly pricier 120mm fork on bike-discount.de, maybe that one will go to 140?


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up but I found that one aswell Already sent them an email to ask if that one does convert to 140mm


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

hurck said:


> Thanks for the heads up but I found that one aswell Already sent them an email to ask if that one does convert to 140mm


They just ship boxes.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

The bike24 one only converts from 100 to 80, the one sold by bike discount would convert up to 140. I'm going to buy that one, if it turns out it doesn't I'll return it.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/SPY-SHOTS-See-Whats-Coming-from-Manitou-and-Sun-Ringle,2504

So wondering if we are going to finally see the long travel 29er Mattoc at Sea Otter 2019!!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/SPY-SHOTS-See-Whats-Coming-from-Manitou-and-Sun-Ringle,2504
> 
> So wondering if we are going to finally see the long travel 29er Mattoc at Sea Otter 2019!!


Dunno. But I can tell you that new mudguard is available and bolts straight up to the 2018 Boost forks: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-fender-mudguard-2019-manitou.html


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Dunno. But I can tell you that new mudguard is available and bolts straight up to the 2018 Boost forks: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-fender-mudguard-2019-manitou.html


$47 for a plastic fender?...no thanks! :nono::skep:

Here ya go...:thumbsup:
https://www.amazon.com/Taint-Muddy-...9CDVQH8FJ5T&psc=1&refRID=4MXHQK13S9CDVQH8FJ5T


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

NH Mtbiker said:


> $47 for a plastic fender?...no thanks! :nono::skep:
> 
> Here ya go...:thumbsup:
> https://www.amazon.com/Taint-Muddy-...9CDVQH8FJ5T&psc=1&refRID=4MXHQK13S9CDVQH8FJ5T


Maybe it's the New Zealand dollar?


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Dunno. But I can tell you that new mudguard is available and bolts straight up to the 2018 Boost forks: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-fender-mudguard-2019-manitou.html


Hi Dougal, i just installed your modified piston for the mattoc pro.
It was very easy as you already said.
I still have to try the bike on the trails but i noticed that to obtain the same rebound speed as before i have to close it more clicks (before the piston i was 2 clicks from full open, now i am at 6 clicks).
Does it sound correct?

For LSC and HSC i will wait the field test, for now i will start with the same settings as before (2 LSC, 1 HSC, HBO maxed)
I weight 80 kg.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Dunno. But I can tell you that new mudguard is available and bolts straight up to the 2018 Boost forks: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-fender-mudguard-2019-manitou.html


New bike will be 150mm travel to start with 145 rear. Only coming with a bone stock Yari so will want to upgrade at some point and have been waiting for a true long travel 29er Mattoc for a while. Sea Otter is a couple months away so maybe see something there.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

This is a cheap fender that is made for mattocs I e that inner arch 's edged Form

https://www.decathlon.de/p/schutzbl...MI0NL3-5in4AIVGuJ3Ch3xOAVBEAQYAyABEgLSLvD_BwE


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

I ordered the Mucky Nutz reverse one.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> $47 for a plastic fender?...no thanks! :nono::skep:
> 
> Here ya go...:thumbsup:
> https://www.amazon.com/Taint-Muddy-...9CDVQH8FJ5T&psc=1&refRID=4MXHQK13S9CDVQH8FJ5T


One of those is a complex plastic moulding for which the tooling costs the same as a house to produce. The other is a cut piece of flat plastic and some zip-ties.

Up to you.



kwapik said:


> Maybe it's the New Zealand dollar?


Indeed, the price shown also includes NZ sales tax. Which comes off once the order is addressed internationally.

For export it's about $US30.



davideb87 said:


> Hi Dougal, i just installed your modified piston for the mattoc pro.
> It was very easy as you already said.
> I still have to try the bike on the trails but i noticed that to obtain the same rebound speed as before i have to close it more clicks (before the piston i was 2 clicks from full open, now i am at 6 clicks).
> Does it sound correct?
> ...


Shouldn't be any change in rebound. Check all your shims are seated flat.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> One of those is a complex plastic moulding for which the tooling costs the same as a house to produce. The other is a cut piece of flat plastic and some zip-ties.
> 
> Up to you.
> 
> ...


That would be weird, i checked them before closing it.
Also, i didn't lose LSR, i mean that if i fully close it, it rebounds very slowly.
I changed the stock oil to Motorex 2.5w, could that be the cause?

Also if the shim are not seated correctly and i ride the fork could i damage it? I would like to give it a try before open it again


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

davideb87 said:


> That would be weird, i checked them before closing it.
> Also, i didn't lose LSR, i mean that if i fully close it, it rebounds very slowly.
> I changed the stock oil to Motorex 2.5w, could that be the cause?
> 
> Also if the shim are not seated correctly and i ride the fork could i damage it? I would like to give it a try before open it again


Motorex 2.5wt is basically the same viscosity as the blue maxima 5wt. So that's not it.
The shims won't get damaged in use. But they can get damaged if trapped during assembly. Because you can go to fully slow it sounds minor. Maybe a small lip on the edge holding a shim off a fraction.

I'd say ride it now and check it next time.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Motorex 2.5wt is basically the same viscosity as the blue maxima 5wt. So that's not it.
> The shims won't get damaged in use. But they can get damaged if trapped during assembly. Because you can go to fully slow it sounds minor. Maybe a small lip on the edge holding a shim off a fraction.
> 
> I'd say ride it now and check it next time.


Thank you!


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Motorex 2.5wt is basically the same viscosity as the blue maxima 5wt. So that's not it.
> The shims won't get damaged in use. But they can get damaged if trapped during assembly. Because you can go to fully slow it sounds minor. Maybe a small lip on the edge holding a shim off a fraction.
> 
> I'd say ride it now and check it next time.


Opened it, i have found some small black debris on the shims and on the upper black long piece that threads on the shaft, didn't see those the other time and always used nitrile gloves. Probably some dirt that cycled around...anyway it seems fine now, it could be either the debris or something else but i'm good anyway.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

phile said:


> How did you get the fork apart after the foot broke? I just did the same thing to mine...


First post from MTB newb and lurker, but here goes...

I recently decided to do the first 50 hourly on my Mattoc Comp 2018 and the exact same thing happened to me, with the rebound foot breaking. I had the torque wrench set to just under 4 Nm. Obviously I applied too much force, but I'm wondering why the wrench didn't click sooner. I've tested it on my bike's frame bolts and it works every time. But when I tested on the air side of my fork, I can't get a click either. Not sure what's happening there. Open to suggestions though...

Anyway, is this:

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-expert-comp-manitou.html

what I need to fix it? Along with a 12mm shaft clamp I'm guessing?


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Is your torque wrench able to be used counter clockwise?? Learned this the hard way myself. Most torque wrenches only work clock wise to the specified torque.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

hurck said:


> The bike24 one only converts from 100 to 80, the one sold by bike discount would convert up to 140. I'm going to buy that one, if it turns out it doesn't I'll return it.


Follow up on this. Yesterday I finally had time to open up the mattoc comp. As promised by bike discount it was possible to convert to 140mm. It definitly is a OEM fork, the decals have different colours (probably for a cube judging by the colour scheme  ), the steerer tube was slightly cut and I could see the starnut was knocked out. But very happy with the deal. Can't wait to test it on the trails, if only it would stop raining...


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

hurck said:


> Is your torque wrench able to be used counter clockwise?? Learned this the hard way myself. Most torque wrenches only work clock wise to the specified torque.


Well that's probably it! My torque wrench looks like a rebranded version of Langestrom's X-tool wrench from the previous page. At the price point of it I doubt it's capable of two-way torque. Bugger.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

In replacing the damaged foot of my Mattoc Comp rebound damper, I'm struggling to remove the damaged one. I've managed to remove the 2 balls but cannot unscrew the foot from the damper shaft.

I've tried heating it, WD40 and a shifter on the circled bit with a 2mm screwdriver in the little hole on the foot. Broke the screwdriver...

I have a 12mm collar clamp in the post but was hoping to get it fixed by the weekend. Can anyone suggest another method or where I'm going wrong? Or maybe I just have to wait for the collar to come so I can better grip the main shaft.

Edit: Or does the rebound adjuster (gold 5mm hex protruding from the foot) need removal before the foot will unscrew?


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## Roland_khs (Feb 27, 2017)

Hello, Before 4 months I purchased Manittou Mattoc pro2 (black) from CRC. Fork is awesome. 

But before few days I noticed vibrations under braking. I checked brakes, headset (everything was ok) and finally I found a little play (moving) in right leg.

When I push the front brake and slightly move bike front and back I feel small moving, free space in right leg. Like the bushings have worn. (the same filling was in my old fox 36 fork, then I serviced and replaced busshings and everything was again OK). 
When I compress fork and try to move front and back then I dont feel any move.
Does any of you have similar problems?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hello, I just bought an used Mattoc, I read a lot of this thread before so I think I know how to use it, changing the air pressure on the trail is a hudge pain, but otherwise it seems all good, though I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be able to bottom it out on flat ground? I made sure that the fork is fully extended and springs equalized properly, there is no vacuum in the lowers or in the damper, oil level is correct, just the fork is set to 140mm and just by pushing hard on the bike I'm able to use 130mm of travel, and if I bounce a little bit I'm able to hit 140, which is very surprising because on my Minute the bottom out bumper doesn't give full travel unless I hit a drop, otherwise it leaves around 5mm as spare, and I'm not perticularly strong. 
I'm running 55-60 psi for 22-20% of sag with my feather like 55kg body.
rear shock (Monarch R Debonair) uses around 80% of travel in this test, as it should, 30% sag there.


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

piciu256 said:


> Hello, I just bought an used Mattoc, I read a lot of this thread before so I think I know how to use it, changing the air pressure on the trail is a hudge pain, but otherwise it seems all good, though I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be able to bottom it out on flat ground? I made sure that the fork is fully extended and springs equalized properly, there is no vacuum in the lowers or in the damper, oil level is correct, just the fork is set to 140mm and just by pushing hard on the bike I'm able to use 130mm of travel, and if I bounce a little bit I'm able to hit 140, which is very surprising because on my Minute the bottom out bumper doesn't give full travel unless I hit a drop, otherwise it leaves around 5mm as spare, and I'm not perticularly strong.
> I'm running 55-60 psi for 22-20% of sag with my feather like 55kg body.
> rear shock (Monarch R Debonair) uses around 80% of travel in this test, as it should, 30% sag there.


How does it feel when you add clicks going towards full lockout? How about at full lockout?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It gets a bit of resistance, when I add hsc I get more and more resistance, no definite lock out though, which as I understand is normal. The oil level is proper, I checked it when changing travel, was 10mm low btw.
The HBO works too, it's a subtle difference, but definitely there, it makes like a shooting sound when bottoming hard, which I'm not sure is normal, but that might as well be my wheel.


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

So if I read this correctly, the problem is that you are able to use the full travel of the fork? Would increasing the pressure solve your problem?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The concern is that I'm able to use all the travel just in the carpark, didn't test it on the trail yet as I'm ill, so I'm asking. Increasing the air pressure more is not an option, I don't want to run less than 20% sag so as not to disrupt the geometry too much, the bike is pretty slack already. I might consider IVA or IRT if it turns out to be too easy to bottom out, but that's a pretty pricey upgrade.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Something isnt right. Even with hydraulic bottom out turned to minimum, the fork has significant bottom out resistance even with too-low pressure. 

Since its used, its hard to say, but it sounds like your air spring needs a rebuild.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

As I said, the air spring works correctly, it's not losing pressure or getting stuck down (I was hoping it would really lol) but it might be too linear with the increased negative air volume from the travel reducing spacers.
Im asking really only because it's my first longish travel bike ever, with the 100mm minute using 95% of travel in the carpark seems sensible, but with 140mm using all but the last 10mm (just by pushing hard on it) seems a bit excessive.
As I said, I hope that it will be non issue when riding for real, but it makes me worried.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Other thing, does anyone know the shim diameter for the pro rebound assembly? With my low weight I'm obviously running the rebound fully counter clockwise, and I feel like it could go a little faster, will order the low friction seals, don't tell me that 
but still I would like to make the rebound shim stack a little softer, just want to order the shims in advance. 
I forgot to check when I was in there to check oil level and stuff, as I was excited to finally put the bike together.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

I got a Mattic Expert to replace my year old Pike that I could never get set up to suit me, no regrets! I got a steal, too, 160mm for like $225 brand new old stock. I think it was BIkewagon, but they are gone now


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

piciu256 said:


> As I said, the air spring works correctly, it's not losing pressure or getting stuck down (I was hoping it would really lol) but it might be too linear with the increased negative air volume from the travel reducing spacers.
> Im asking really only because it's my first longish travel bike ever, with the 100mm minute using 95% of travel in the carpark seems sensible, but with 140mm using all but the last 10mm (just by pushing hard on it) seems a bit excessive.
> As I said, I hope that it will be non issue when riding for real, but it makes me worried.


In my experience with Manitou, they seem to run softish at correct sag, I have a 160mm Mattoc comp that when I first set it up it would eat speedbumps in the parking lot, in the end I added more air to firm it up a little. My Minute pro 140 was the same, I have had a 140mm Sektor gold and a Fox factory 34 and the Sektor felt fine for the most part, the Fox was really firm all the way through at sag. I'd say set your Manitou's sag standing mid bike and see if that feels better.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Hello, I just bought an used Mattoc, I read a lot of this thread before so I think I know how to use it, changing the air pressure on the trail is a hudge pain, but otherwise it seems all good, though I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be able to bottom it out on flat ground? I made sure that the fork is fully extended and springs equalized properly, there is no vacuum in the lowers or in the damper, oil level is correct, just the fork is set to 140mm and just by pushing hard on the bike I'm able to use 130mm of travel, and if I bounce a little bit I'm able to hit 140, which is very surprising because on my Minute the bottom out bumper doesn't give full travel unless I hit a drop, otherwise it leaves around 5mm as spare, and I'm not perticularly strong.
> I'm running 55-60 psi for 22-20% of sag with my feather like 55kg body.
> rear shock (Monarch R Debonair) uses around 80% of travel in this test, as it should, 30% sag there.





piciu256 said:


> Other thing, does anyone know the shim diameter for the pro rebound assembly? With my low weight I'm obviously running the rebound fully counter clockwise, and I feel like it could go a little faster, will order the low friction seals, don't tell me that
> but still I would like to make the rebound shim stack a little softer, just want to order the shims in advance.
> I forgot to check when I was in there to check oil level and stuff, as I was excited to finally put the bike together.


55-60psi is a lot for a 55kg rider. I've got 20kg on you and was running 45-50psi for single air chamber. Now I'm running 40/80psi with IRT. But my bike is long and slack. Is yours short and steep?
How are you measuring sag and in what riding position?

Pumps can be a long way out, but it doesn't matter as long as it's consistent and you keep using the same one. Get another pump to check the pressure some time.

Shims on the rebound are 6x13x0.1mm. But once you get your air pressure sorted and your seals changed to low friction type you will be in the middle of the range.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Actually, I'm pretty confident in my pumps reading, I fall right into the Manitou recommended pressure for 140mm setting, my bike is pretty slack, not very long, but definitely modern. I'm setting my sag in the neutral position, as was recommended by Volsprung, just for consistency, sitting it's less than 20%, in the attack position its around 25% so I'd say quite perfect. It might as well be just that I will want more end stroke progression, my test ride plan for yesterday was killed by compressing the rear suspension with pump attached... Snapped the air valve from the Monarch clean off  Well, hopefully it won't happen again...
Thank you very much for the shim dimensions, are you aware of the count of them? If it's only 2 then I will stop short of modyfying them, as to avoid stress failure, I was hoping they are 0,15mm thick so I can make the stack a bit softer with appropriate ammount of 0.1mm shims. 
The red colour stick out like a sore thumb, but it was that used and known (ridden for 3 years)to be reliable for 300$ or new old stock, white so not much better, for 380$ which could have some issues emerge in the upcoming years.

Short term bike storage, while being worked on


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So to answer my own question, since my shock is damaged and I can't ride anyway, I opened the fork up again, ordered some Fox Gold, and will put all the damper parts together with loctite to play safe (I don't want to open it again anytime soon, unless it will appear to be leaking)
The rebound shim stack of the pro damper is not really possible to modify, as it consists of 2 0,1mm thick shims, I guess you could make the second one a bit smaller diameter, but I don't think that would make enough of a difference in this case. 

So the only option for me remains to be the low friction seals, though I don't like the idea of not having an oil seal, the current ones (first revision, not even the 25 ones, these are first batch 22 seals) and these are so smooth compared to the minute or marvel ones... But do the new seals differ in any way apart from lacking the oil seal? Is there anything that could go wrong from running the old seals, just with the oil seal portion removed? The dust seals seem to be doing a good enough of a job keeping things out, though I'm not sure if they have any capacity of keeping oil in.

Also, does Hayes (or manitou) give away the updated piston of someone has the old one (like me) or do I need to have varranty for that? Kepp in mind that I'm in Europe, so the support might not be as good as in US (judging from the communication I had just asking about some things)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

piciu256 said:


> So to answer my own question, since my shock is damaged and I can't ride anyway, I opened the fork up again, ordered some Fox Gold, and will put all the damper parts together with loctite to play safe (I don't want to open it again anytime soon, unless it will appear to be leaking)
> The rebound shim stack of the pro damper is not really possible to modify, as it consists of 2 0,1mm thick shims, I guess you could make the second one a bit smaller diameter, but I don't think that would make enough of a difference in this case.
> 
> So the only option for me remains to be the low friction seals, though I don't like the idea of not having an oil seal, the current ones (first revision, not even the 25 ones, these are first batch 22 seals) and these are so smooth compared to the minute or marvel ones... But do the new seals differ in any way apart from lacking the oil seal? Is there anything that could go wrong from running the old seals, just with the oil seal portion removed? The dust seals seem to be doing a good enough of a job keeping things out, though I'm not sure if they have any capacity of keeping oil in.
> ...


The low friction seals have the oil seal lip built into them. They seal very well and are a great upgrade, but there is nothing inherently wrong with the 2 piece seals and you can run them as long as you want. You do not want to run them without the oil seal though, the dust seal scraper will not keep the oil inside.

Their are options for the rebound damper tune, the biggest being using a smaller face shim that allows a very small amount of free bleed. There was a lot of testing done on those and they work well. The low friction seals or green skf seals work well to reduce friction allow you to run less lsr. You can also go with a slightly thinner oil, though that changes LSC as well.

As for your spring issue, using IVA or IRT allows you adjust your spring to solve your issue. The first run mattocs with blank too caps have a little too much volume. With IRT, you can dial in any spring curve you want, it's worth the money. IVA is a solid option too and cheaper. A driveway bounce test is not a great indicator of how much travel you will use on the trail though.

You can email [email protected] and ask about the updated air piston. They will likely send one out.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Will go for the new seals next month, when I have money, IVA new is not worth it, as for just 20€ more I can get IRT, for 60€ it is acceptable I guess, since I saved this ammount of money by going used.
I modified the lsr adjuster a bit, I filed down the rod that turns the needle slightly, giving me 2 clicks more of negative movement (I noticed the port opens just a bit, so thought if it opens just a tad more there can't be any harm) that might be enough, since I wanted to make it just a little bit faster. 
With those upgrades the fork is starting to get a bit pricey though... 
Mayby someone has a spare IVA lying around in Europe? As in upgraded to the superior IRT and could live with passing it to me for cheap? I can't see anything for Mattoc locally, just for Dorado.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Bike24, bike-components, h&s bike discount, r2 bike,... in Germany and chainreactioncycles in the UK all have manitou (mattoc) stuff in their webshops. On https://bikemarkt.mtb-news.de/search/Irt?page=2 you can often find deals on the irt kit.

You do have a point in the difference between the tech support in Europe and the US. Always had good email contact with the US tech support, the few times I contacted the tech support here in Europe were a bit more difficult. The guys in the US seem much more helpfull and know their products better. At least that was the impression I had.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Agreed on the difference between tech support in the US (amazing) and Europe (mediocre at best). 
The Dutch importer didn't even know there were new seals or air pistons and couldn't provide me with springs for the HBO adjuster worth 2 cents (even when I offered to pay everything). They could only sell me a complete adjuster set for nearly 40 dollars. 
The US store where I bought it from was so kind to strip them from another fork in stock and settled it via Manitou US.
It would be great to have a knowledgeable and service oriented guy like Dougal over here. My local shop has excellent service but can't always help me and the importer knows nothing and is usually not willing to help (the same goes for Fox btw).


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## snowboarderVB (Aug 23, 2017)

Hi all, 
I am getting new bike as I made deposit on a dual suspension bike.

It come with this fork, Manitou Mattoc Comp Air fork, 150mm travel.

I wonder how good is this fork compared to Rockshox or Fox?

Cheers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> Agreed on the difference between tech support in the US (amazing) and Europe (mediocre at best).
> The Dutch importer didn't even know there were new seals or air pistons and couldn't provide me with springs for the HBO adjuster worth 2 cents (even when I offered to pay everything). They could only sell me a complete adjuster set for nearly 40 dollars.
> The US store where I bought it from was so kind to strip them from another fork in stock and settled it via Manitou US.
> It would be great to have a knowledgeable and service oriented guy like Dougal over here. My local shop has excellent service but can't always help me and the importer knows nothing and is usually not willing to help (the same goes for Fox btw).


I think I'm the only place worldwide with the HBO springs: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/fork-parts/fork-small-parts

The reason no-one else worldwide offers this service is the expense and effort involved in generating and keeping that level of detail. That goes for all suspension brands. This stuff gets complex fast. Even stocking and tracking the bits can be a nightmare.

Shockcraft has over 3000 listings.



snowboarderVB said:


> Hi all,
> I am getting new bike as I made deposit on a dual suspension bike.
> 
> It come with this fork, Manitou Mattoc Comp Air fork, 150mm travel.
> ...


Very good. Maybe better. But we don't know which models you're comparing it against.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

I just installed my new Mattoc Comp and am trying to lower it to 140mm. Was it supposed to include extra spacers for the air spring?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes, it's supposed to have 2 spacers and a HBO cone for travel/wheel size conversion.
@edit or mayby not with the comp version?


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

piciu256 said:


> Yes, it's supposed to have 2 spacers and a HBO cone for travel/wheel size conversion.
> @edit or mayby not with the comp version?


Thanks. No HBO on the Comp, but it is adjustable down to 140 if I only had two more spacers. I can't find them online anywhere. Sure looks like I should have had them in the box. I got a fender and a user guide, but no other parts


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## snowboarderVB (Aug 23, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Very good. Maybe better. But we don't know which models you're comparing it against.


That's good to hear. Is there something like calculating weight for correct set up for the fork?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Well, not really, you have a starting point pressure recommendation written on the side of the fork, but everything depends on how hard you ride in what terrain, I saw some dudes here want to remove all the spacers possible from the chamber, while for me the stock setup without spacers is too soft (not enough capacity in the spring, aka I'm able to bottom out just by pushing hard on it)
ps. afaik the comp version has the HBO circuit too, it's just not externally adjustable.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Unfortunately my CRC mattoc pro 2 developed a serious bushings play as well...will try to go through the warranty.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Managed to aquire an IVA kit for 20$ 
So as soon as I receive a new Monarch air valve assembly, I will do some testing, the weather is supposed to be avesome in the upcoming days. 
But looking at it, I can't stop but wonder if noone tried to convert it to an IRT, technically the only difference between them is that the IVA cap has no air valve and has a plastic spacer on the shaft, well and that the IRT shaft is anodised, but I don't think that's crutial (might need to polish it though), as long as it's lubed properly, so I think I will try to hack an IRT system from it myself, if I find I'm not fully pleased enough with the result, or just for the heck of it


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

davideb87 said:


> Unfortunately my CRC mattoc pro 2 developed a serious bushings play as well...will try to go through the warranty.


I bought the same fork. What are the symptoms of bushing play?

I ordered a IRT which should be here this week. Going snowboarding this weekend but can't wait to install it and use it next week.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Well, if yours develops bushing play... You will definitely notce it, it manifests with a deaf clicking noise with a vibration at the handlebar, and obviously noticeable play between the lowers and uppers of the fork.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Strong vibrations during fast rough descents, especially during braking.
Also a bad feeling/clunk noise when i lift the front wheel and then i land on the ground.
I don't like to ride the bike anymore this way, i feel unsafe as well, i have the feeling that it's going to break something anytime.

The axle Is torqued to spec, hub and brakes are ok, headset has no play. It's the fork.

My main problem is that i don't want a new fork, i just did a service and installed Dougal's rebound piston.
I will see how they are going to warranty it.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

boomn said:


> Thanks. No HBO on the Comp, but it is adjustable down to 140 if I only had two more spacers. I can't find them online anywhere. Sure looks like I should have had them in the box. I got a fender and a user guide, but no other parts


Following up to say thank you to Manitou :thumbsup: They are sending me two spacers


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

boomn said:


> Following up to say thank you to Manitou :thumbsup: They are sending me two spacers


The comps have HBO, it's just not externally adjustable.

Glad you got the spacers sorted


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

davideb87 said:


> Strong vibrations during fast rough descents, especially during braking.
> Also a bad feeling/clunk noise when i lift the front wheel and then i land on the ground.
> I don't like to ride the bike anymore this way, i feel unsafe as well, i have the feeling that it's going to break something anytime.
> 
> ...


Honestly loose bushings can't cause all of that. Especially the clunk.

Loose bushings are like a really minorly loose headset. I think you've got something else going on inside.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Yesterday i checked everything again and i have found that the axle retainer was flush, but a bit loose.
Could it be the cause of the vibrations/noise getting worse?

The bushing play is still there. Anyway manitou is going to check the fork under warranty  they answered me in a few hours by calling me on the phone, i'm impressed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

davideb87 said:


> Yesterday i checked everything again and i have found that the axle retainer was flush, but a bit loose.
> Could it be the cause of the vibrations/noise getting worse?
> 
> The bushing play is still there. Anyway manitou is going to check the fork under warranty  they answered me in a few hours by calling me on the phone, i'm impressed.


Yes a loose axle feels terrible.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Roland_khs said:


> Hello, Before 4 months I purchased Manittou Mattoc pro2 (black) from CRC. Fork is awesome.
> 
> But before few days I noticed vibrations under braking. I checked brakes, headset (everything was ok) and finally I found a little play (moving) in right leg.
> 
> ...


yeah, the out-of-spec bushings seem to be the most common defect of an otherwise fantastic fork. It sounds like your Mattoc is still under warranty, I would contact Manitou to see about a warranty repair, they will know what you are talking about.

just be sure to rule out a loose headset, loose axle, or shifting brake pads before contacting them


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So I just got the IVA, looking at it live I see that to make an IRT out of it all I need is a new shaft for the piston to ride on (the stock one is made from a 
really poor quality/soft material, don't think it's suitable) and a valve in the cap. Should be easy enough with a lathe, though I'm not sure I'll bother as testing by hand shows a noticeable increase in stiffness even in the beginning of the stroke, with just one token so I believe my "issue" will now be resolved 
Also, the 3 additional clicks of rebound are more than enough, with my settings @50 psi one less click was enough to make it perfect, so I'm @ 9 clicks from fully closed now 
No reshimming of the rebound stack required, if anyone weighs 50kg and wonders if this fork will work, well, it most surtently will, just take apart the rebound assembly and shorten the rebound needle rod by around 0,2mm and you're golden 
I personally don't see a need to make the compression stack any lighter, don't know why anyone would, but that's just me.


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## ramsdude47 (Aug 20, 2017)

Will the Mattoc 29/27.5+ fit a Duro Crux 29x3.25 on a Duroc 50 (i46)? The A-C is listed as 531 compared to 551 I believe for the 29+.

More importantly would it fit most 29x3 tires?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ramsdude47 said:


> Will the Mattoc 29/27.5+ fit a Duro Crux 29x3.25 on a Duroc 50 (i46)? The A-C is listed as 531 compared to 551 I believe for the 29+.
> 
> More importantly would it fit most 29x3 tires?


The 27+/29" version will fit 27x3.4".
The 29+ version will fit 29x3.4"

Yes there is 20mm in radius between a 27" wheel (23" bead diameter) and 29" (24.5" bead diameter) wheel.


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

So I'm looking at improving on my 2018 fox 36 170mm performance forks. I was going to try the Vorsprung Luftkappe or Smashpot but came across this...

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/nz/en/manitou-mattoc-comp-forks-boost-15mm-axle/rp-prod178213

Is the mattoc comp an improvement, a side step or cheap for a reason? Can the travel be adjusted to 170mm? Should I just save for the pro or MRP ribbon?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

My Mattoc Pro was a definite improvement on my 2017 Fox 34 Performance. However, the Fox 36 is better than the 34 and the Mattoc Comp is not as good as the Pro. Stiffness wise, the Fox 36 will be better. Damping wise, the Mattoc Comp might just edge it. A Mattoc Expert or Pro will definitely be better damping wise than a Fox 36 Performance. 
Mullen or Dougal might have better insight on the comparative performance of the Mattoc Comp. It is supposed to be a terrific fork for the money, but the Fox 36 is on a totally different price level. I suspect it would be a sidestep in damping performance and it would be better to invest in a Mattoc Expert or Pro with IRT if performance is your first concern.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Today I had the strangest thing. I month ago a bought a new Mattoc Pro 26', manufacturing date 2014/09/18. Ordered some stuff from Dougal (incl. high flow piston).

So I started converting it to 27.5. Took the air assembly out to change the spacer and noticed it already had the new air piston. I thought, nice, saves me some work. Then went on with the rebound assembly. Took off the 26' end replaced the piston with the high flow one and put the 27.5 end back on.

Then I wanted to start to take out the old seals to put the new low friction seals in. So I get my tire lifter to get the seals out and think, wait a minute, there look like the new ones already. So checked the part number and strangely enough there's indeed the new seals already in there. How do 2017 low friction seals end up in 2014 fork I wonder?!

Anyway the fork really is new, no stretch on it. Anyway saved me the work on both air-piston and seals. Is going the go on the bike tomorrow. Can't wait.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Today I had the strangest thing. I month ago a bought a new Mattoc Pro 26', manufacturing date 2014/09/18. Ordered some stuff from Dougal (incl. high flow piston).
> 
> So I started converting it to 27.5. Took the air assembly out to change the spacer and noticed it already had the new air piston. I thought, nice, saves me some work. Then went on with the rebound assembly. Took off the 26' end replaced the piston with the high flow one and put the 27.5 end back on.
> 
> ...


Manitou update their stock. So if you fork was still in their US warehouse when updates are developed, then they update what they have.

If your fork sat in a resellers warehouse it wouldn't get those updates.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Manitou update their stock. So if you fork was still in their US warehouse when updates are developed, then they update what they have.
> 
> If your fork sat in a resellers warehouse it wouldn't get those updates.


That's incredible service by Manitou then! Awesome, I don't think many competitors would go through the trouble.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CS645 said:


> That's incredible service by Manitou then! Awesome, I don't think many competitors would go through the trouble.


Small companies like Manitou (or any of the companies in the Hayes component group) need to go a step above to try to please the customers. It's the only way to grow in a very competitive market.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

If anyone is even interested in my outcome, ended up with 45psi with 2 tokens for just a little bit more sag (30mm vs 26) and the front now nicely matches the slightly progressive linkage and monarch R, using around 80% travel when pushing hard in the parking lot.
Also I'm still sick but couldn't resist and went to check it out on trail... Man is it ever smooth, and I'm not even running any good oil or the new seals so it can be even better, it just eats all the bumps, even the big ones, with out using more than half the travel really, it's ridiculous how fast I can ride one perticular rooty section without feeling even a little out of control, it's in a totally different league than the 100mm Minute I have on my XC bike... Makes me want to look for rougher trails now, gotta go to the mountains sometime  
One thing I'm not so fond of is how well my Monarch shock came out, gives me no reason for buying the McLeod other than that the stanchion is a little worn already.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Yes a loose axle feels terrible.


Hi Dougal, Manitou tested the fork and they said it was the head of the fork (crown?) that had a good amount of play. They will change it with the stanchions.
The bushings were fine.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

After receiving my travel spacers, lowering my Mattoc to 140mm and installing it, I noticed that I have ~15mm of suck down. Is possible to have that much vacuum in the lowers, or is that more likely something with the negative chamber in the air spring? 

I remember that I tightened the lower bolts with the fork mostly compressed. And it was late so I didn't get a change to crack the bolts to try to release any vacuum


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Did you released the pump with the fork fully extended?
When releasing the pump on a Manitou fork you have to make sure the fork is fully extended by pulling the lowers.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Aglo said:


> Did you released the pump with the fork fully extended?
> When releasing the pump on a Manitou fork you have to make sure the fork is fully extended by pulling the lowers.


Thanks. I did not do that. Too used to the Mars Air system I guess, and just assumed that pumping it up would fully extend it and be enough. I will try that tonight


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

What size tire can fit the non-boost Pro 2? I have 30mm inner width rims, thinking of tossing some rekons on there. They have 2.4 or 2.6. I'm thinking the 2.6 might be pushing it, but Maxxis usually measures smaller? 2.4 Rekons measured at 2.35 or so with 29mm wheels.


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## Poprockz (Feb 27, 2019)

Hello. Ive been trying to find a good deal on a 29er mattoc pro boost for my wife, but the deals I've found haven't been as good as the ones others find it seems.

I did come across this and was wondering what's the difference between it and the regular mattoc pro 2 and 3 that everyone is talking about?

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-dorado-air-27.5-29-120-tapered-sl-boost-801392


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

That's not a pro but a comp version of the mattoc. I purchased the one from bike discount recently. It has abs+ instead of the mc2 damper and on the air spring side an IVA vs IRT that's on the pro. 


Differences between pro 2 and 3 are the improved seals and standard installed irt on the 3 i believe.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Poprockz said:


> Hello. Ive been trying to find a good deal on a 29er mattoc pro boost for my wife, but the deals I've found haven't been as good as the ones others find it seems.
> 
> I did come across this and was wondering what's the difference between it and the regular mattoc pro 2 and 3 that everyone is talking about?
> 
> https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-dorado-air-27.5-29-120-tapered-sl-boost-801392


Like good deals often do, you just have to be patient. From what I am hearing you may be better off getting the original holdover (more reliable) and getting a 100mm front wheel (unless of course she is on a plus bike). I bought an Expert for like $225 after the discounts, I love it. I have an original Pro for my 29+, of course that is known as the Magnum, may want to look for one of those, its my understanding its the same internals just original boost Mattic, but someone chime in if I am wrong. Here is a Mag in 100mm of travel, not as good of deal as I got, but not terrible either. Not sure if it can be made 120mm, I know mine couldn't, but it had the same bearing to axle distance as most 120mm forks, which kept the geo close even though I lost some travel, but it being a 29+ hardtail, 100mm was all I needed. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/manitou-magnum-pro-forks-15mm-2017/rp-prod157579


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## Poprockz (Feb 27, 2019)

Thanks for the replies, odd that it's the comp when it says pro on the description. Can the comp be made into the pro relatively cheaply?

Thanks for the help friends, also considering a suntour possibly.

My wife is 280 lbs ready to ride so needs a good stiff fork that's can be adjusted to her.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

I have the Suntour Auron, excellent fork as well. Rented a bike with the Axon and it was fine, too. I'm sure you know to stay away from the lower end models.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Poprockz said:


> Thanks for the replies, odd that it's the comp when it says pro on the description. Can the comp be made into the pro relatively cheaply?
> 
> Thanks for the help friends, also considering a suntour possibly.
> 
> My wife is 280 lbs ready to ride so needs a good stiff fork that's can be adjusted to her.


No, the Comp can't be converted, the Expert could but they don't sell them anymore, now you only have the Comp and the Pro.


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Anyone in Europe want to swap my QR 110 mm axle for their SL version? I don't like levers.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I think most people would do it the other way around, myself included .
The only reason I'm yet to spend 30€ on the SL version is because the QR works just fine.


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Well quite, but it seems ****ing stupid having a 60 eur QR axle and then spending money on a 30 eur bolt through, when presumably there are at least a few strange people out there who take their wheels off all the time, have the SL, and balk even more at buying the QR.


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## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm in the market for a Mattoc. I missed the deal on CRC for the Mattow Comp at around $230 (No longer in stock). Anyone know where else there's a good deal? Would prefer the Pro, but I'd consider the Comp or Expert as well. Something that could be adjusted to 140MM.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Check German sites like bike24, bike-discount and similar, they often pop up at 300€ for the pro 2014 version, bike 24 had them in stock just a week ago, now it's no longer avaible but I bet you they will be avaible again.
Other than that check if there are no offers for used ones, as long as they are in good shape (no leaks, creaks and bushing play) I'd say they are an even better deal than new, because they are already checked for any potential factory defects


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

JcConnell said:


> I'm in the market for a Mattoc. I missed the deal on CRC for the Mattow Comp at around $230 (No longer in stock). Anyone know where else there's a good deal? Would prefer the Pro, but I'd consider the Comp or Expert as well. Something that could be adjusted to 140MM.


Expert or Pro doesn't matter much performance wise, but both are significantly better than the comp (which isn't bad, but the others just have much better dampers). I would personally always try to get the Expert or Pro.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Keep in mind that the comp also has different wall thickness stanchions, so you cant upgrade it to a pro level fork. The expert shares a chassis with the pro (or it used to, mullen or dougal can confirm if thats still the case) so you can always drop updated parts in if you find you want a performance upgrade.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Hi, does anybody have an image of the damper rod on a 2016 mattoc expert?
I recently serviced mine and think I may have put the plastic spacer on the wrong way round but would like to see the correct way before I strip them down again. Or a description of which way it goes would be good also. 

Any help or info is much appreciated.

Regards 

Martyn.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Damper rod has no plastic spacers on the assembly that I'm aware of, at least in the 2014 version. If there is one on yours, it's supposed to be facing upwards with the recess for the bottom out bumper, otherwise it's symmetrical.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

It has a spacer like the comp side but with an extra collar on one side. I'm not sure I've fitted it correctly. Would the collar side face up towards the top of the fork?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes, the collar is supposed to face upwards, and on top of it is supposed to be a bottom out spacer, like on the spring side.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Think of this way- the rubber piece is supposed to fit inside the collar.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Ok I think that's how I fitted it but I'll take the lowers off and check anyway. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Looking at all the service documentation it appears that most models don't have anything there, why is it needed on mine I wonder? Obviously it serves a purpose but what is it actually for.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

From what I've seen- some of their AM forks have both, some only one (talking about minute and mattoc), some XC forks also have both, some only one (talking about skareb, r7, m30, marvel). Generally I'd say it's pretty random, depending on the year of manufacturing they have it or not.
Imo unless you weigh a lot, remove the damper side one, it's not needed.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Yeah I'll give it a go. Thanks


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Can i fit any upgrades to my Mattoc Comp 2017 with black stanchions?


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## vvorth (Mar 9, 2019)

Hi all.

Last week i've bought Mattoc Pro 2014 for a good price. I know this guy and he used this fork for 3-4 ride sessions only, the problem is he and i don't know how it was serviced.

My concern is HSC knob. It should have range of 5 clicks but i have only two noticable click positions from fully open, then it tightens to the point it's uncomfortable to turn it. So total range is about 50-60% of that from manual.

I haven't disassemble the fork completely because i'm waiting for fluids delivery, but checked oil level in damper and it's very low, not an issue, but tells a lot about the guy who serviced it at least twice(when it got delivered, and before owner sold it to me).

If you have any thoughts or advice, please share.


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

one more question, i cant find any Travel change kits for my mattoc comp, is there any other kit that i can fit into my fork to make it drop from 160 to 140mm? For example i've hard about RS kit with some modification. 
Or does the IVA spacer kit also works as the travel change tokens in damper side?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Why would you want to put any spacers on the damper side? Better see how the travel adjustment is done first, before you damage the fork. Manitou has a tutorial on YouTube, IVA spacers will work just fine, unless you use more than 2 then you don't have any spare


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## shiremux (Jun 4, 2015)

Yeah i mean air shaft side, typo


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

vvorth said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Last week i've bought Mattoc Pro 2014 for a good price. I know this guy and he used this fork for 3-4 ride sessions only, the problem is he and i don't know how it was serviced.
> 
> ...


It's normal to feel the adjuster start to get tight and the clicks start to fade. The hsc adjustment adds preload to the shim stack, the more preload, the harder it becomes to turn the adjuster.

If you have to turn the adjuster super hard, just to get a 3rd click, you may have an issue. There is no way to adjust the HSC adjusters range of preload officially, but you can work around it in .1mm increments by spacing the Piston down with 10mm OD shims. It should have very little or no float in the shim stack when the HSC is full soft. If it has excessive preload when full open, you won't get a full range of adjustment.

The mc2 damper is very sensitive to shim stack changes for this reason, and that's why there is no shim tuning guide for it.

The other option if you think there is an issue would be to contact [email protected] and have it looked at as a possible warranty claim.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

shiremux said:


> Yeah i mean air shaft side, typo


If they didn't come in the box with the fork (they should have), email [email protected] and they should sent you a couple out.


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## vvorth (Mar 9, 2019)

mullen119 said:


> It's normal to feel the adjuster start to get tight and the clicks start to fade. The hsc adjustment adds preload to the shim stack, the more preload, the harder it becomes to turn the adjuster.
> 
> If you have to turn the adjuster super hard, just to get a 3rd click, you may have an issue. There is no way to adjust the HSC adjusters range of preload officially, but you can work around it in .1mm increments by spacing the Piston down with 10mm OD shims. It should have very little or no float in the shim stack when the HSC is full soft. If it has excessive preload when full open, you won't get a full range of adjustment.
> 
> ...


Well, there is no third click at all, it's so tight at that moment, i can only turn it about half click further from the point thirg click should be - afraid it can be damaged.

But from your answer it looks like it was damaged(either by bad servicing or from factory). Don't think i would want HSC closed by the way, and since i'm in Uzbekistan it's probably easier to work it around myself.

I couldn't find disassembly/service instructions do you know if there are any available so i can check it from inside? Don't want to try without it since usually it's very tricky. Or at least tell me what to look at checking that 10mm shims preload while HSC is open.

Thank you for the info.

UPD:
Took off mc2 cartridge - it's not that tight as when installed and i can definitely feel four clicks and it tightens up to fifth, so it's okay i guess =.)


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## vvorth (Mar 9, 2019)

Another question, sorry, not easy to find specific sizes:

My mattoc pro is 26 160, based on the box and serial number on fork and the box(i'm still on 26 inch wheels anyway, so i haven't checked type of HBO piston yet). But with pump attached i can only compess it to 150mm total(pulling legs down after compressing the fork and measuring distance to travel ring, btw there is about 20+mm of stancions left till crown).

On my air piston shaft there is a travel spacer right below the piston itself, i know that mattoc pro 26 supposed to be with this one if set up for 160mm of travel. But what i think is it can be air piston/shaft assembly from 27.5 version, so this spacer actually reduces 160 to 150. So here comes the question:

What are the measurements for both 26 and 27.5 air piston assembly? So i can check if it's one or another.

Or correct me if i'm wrong.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

26" and 27,5" versions are exactly the same internally, just the upper csu is different (less offset on 26" version) so your bottom out must be a result of too much oil in the damper. If it's pro, it should be 77mm from top at full extension.
ps. how do you check if it's originally 26 or 27,5"? I'm curious what offset does mine have.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

piciu256 said:


> 26" and 27,5" versions are exactly the same internally, just the upper csu is different (less offset on 26" version) so your bottom out must be a result of too much oil in the damper. If it's pro, it should be 77mm from top at full extension.
> ps. how do you check if it's originally 26 or 27,5"? I'm curious what offset does mine have.


By checking the offset 

Btw, the other difference between 26" and 27.5" is the default installed HBO cone. It can't hurt to check whether the correct one is installed.
Also, the last couple mm of travel are hard to achieve because of the built-in bottoming prevention.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

So Manitou is teasing "an exciting new product line in a completely new category for Manitou"

Any idea what it is?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> So Manitou is teasing "an exciting new product line in a completely new category for Manitou"
> 
> Any idea what it is?


Yes. But I can't say.

11th April isn't that far away.........


----------



## vvorth (Mar 9, 2019)

piciu256 said:


> 26" and 27,5" versions are exactly the same internally, just the upper csu is different (less offset on 26" version) so your bottom out must be a result of too much oil in the damper. If it's pro, it should be 77mm from top at full extension.
> ps. how do you check if it's originally 26 or 27,5"? I'm curious what offset does mine have.


Pro 26 160 - it's written on the original box. And i know it is its box because of S/N match.
Level of oil is exactly 77mm.

About internals - in travel adjustment docs there are differences for mattoc 26 and mattoc 27.5. So i guessed that there were two versions - 26 covertable to 27.5 and pure 27.5(may be 2016 and later versions, when there is no stock 26 anymore).

UPD:
You were right - air piston assy is the same, diffenence is only in position of travel spacers - 27.5 should have one next to valve and none below air piston itself to achieve 160mm. While 26 should have one below piston and non by the valve.
Also empirically figured out why i have less travel - looks like my hbo piston/cone is for 27.5 and it's stops it 10mm earlier while that one travel spacer right below air piston should be moved down to valve, because in current case it is also reduces travel.


----------



## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

The long awaited 37mm stanchion fork maybe?

https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-and-hayes-plotting-comeback/


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> So Manitou is teasing "an exciting new product line in a completely new category for Manitou"
> 
> Any idea what it is?


It's worth the wait.....


----------



## trouble112 (Feb 21, 2019)

Hi guys,

I'm trying to figure out what the heck is going on with the new mattoc pro fork i just received from Bike-discount.de - Specifically, it is this exact fork https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-pro-27.5-29-120-tapered-sl-boost-801392

Measuring the stanchion length, it is 160mm, yet on the sticker (the one on the back) it says 120mm travel (maybe bottom-out occurs 3/4 of the way? Is this normal?). According to the sticker it is the pro version with dorado air and i can see the IVA on top - Yet there are no 'Pro' written next to the Mattoc stickers on the lower legs.

I called bike-discount to hear what i actually received. They were not so helpful and zero clue about anything. Then on to contacting Hayes, which says that the fork is definitely not an AM fork (which also explains why it didn't come in a box? but only bubble plastics..) - They say it is an OE fork, but what does this mean for me? The weight is 2160ish, Manitou notes 2033. Everything is a bit weird. You guys have any idea what is going on?

I'm wondering if i should return it...


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's not a pro, not standard pro at least. Might be just butted stanchions for example, but you have the less sofisticated abs+ damper, as for stanchions, someone said before "ruler doesn't lie, and that couldn't be any more true, but when measuring actual travel, not stanchion lenght, they are not really related.


----------



## trouble112 (Feb 21, 2019)

Maybe i haven't done my research properly. So where do i stand right now?

Dorado air from a pro version, abs+ from a comp and IVA from a comp?

I'm new in building/upgrading bikes and parts, so any advice is appreciated!


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I mean you bought an oem fork with abs+ and dorado air, and that's exactly what you got. Still a great fork, but might not be what you wanted.


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## trouble112 (Feb 21, 2019)

I just expected it to be the PRO version, since it's in the name of the item... I'm sure it will fit my needs just fine. However, i don't want to pay 350 euro for a fork that is occasionally between 250-270 euro on bike24. I suppose this is comparable with the one i've got then https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=304100;menu=1000,2,121;mid=0;pgc=0;page=7

I'll probably try call bike-discount again and attempt negotiate the price.


----------



## vvorth (Mar 9, 2019)

trouble112 said:


> I just expected it to be the PRO version, since it's in the name of the item... I'm sure it will fit my needs just fine. However, i don't want to pay 350 euro for a fork that is occasionally between 250-270 euro on bike24. I suppose this is comparable with the one i've got then https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=304100;menu=1000,2,121;mid=0;pgc=0;page=7
> 
> I'll probably try call bike-discount again and attempt negotiate the price.


In bike-discount description it clearly says that fork comes with abs+ damper. IMO it's the issue of bike-discount assigning it wrong name in their catalog.


----------



## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

I'm looking for a coil shock with good weight for pedaling and climb switch.
I will wait until April...they wrote they have a new product line so i hope they have a new shock as well!


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yup, seen the advertisements all over Instagram for 4.11.19 that Manitou J-Unit, which says it is a New Product Line. Looks like this may be something completely separate from all current offerings. The advert shows the silhouette of a fork so we can assume that it is at least a new fork coming.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Yes. But I can't say.
> 
> 11th April isn't that far away.........





mullen119 said:


> It's worth the wait.....


You guys are killing me! Will be very interesting - as long as it is not a Manitou e-bike!


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> You guys are killing me! Will be very interesting - as long as it is not a Manitou e-bike!


Linkage fork


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Linkage fork


No it is a new Coil sprung Air fork that gender identifies as a Linkage fork.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> No it is a new Coil sprung Air fork that gender identifies as a Linkage fork.


Hahahaha


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mullen119 said:


> Linkage fork


I would buy that so fast.


----------



## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

If it is a longer travel and bigger stanchion version of the mattoc pro than I want one.
Can we pre order?


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah, I think I found it.









Sign me up.


----------



## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Yeah, I think I found it.
> 
> View attachment 1242630
> 
> ...


I've actually tried that fork. The lack of brake dive is amazing but the tuning for it is a bit crap. Far too expensive as well.


----------



## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Vespasianus said:


> Yeah, I think I found it.
> 
> View attachment 1242630
> 
> ...


I hope it's not this. What fender do I have to run wit that!?

Maybe a dual crown enduro fork like the MRP Barlet, but than better.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

thova said:


> I hope it's not this. What fender do I have to run wit that!?
> 
> Maybe a dual crown enduro fork like the MRP Barlet, but than better.


Yeah, my post was a joke. Not sure what it is but I am pretty sure it won't be that!


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Damn.. wish I was going to Sea Otter this year as I bet Manitou/Hayes will have whatever the new line is on display.


----------



## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

Does anyone want a single 5mm air spring spacer for a Mattoc?
It will make your travel 155mm or 145mm or 135mm, etc combined normal 10mm spacers.
I 3d printed one, tried it and went back to 160mm travel.
No charge, just let me know where to send it.


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Just wanted to give a very short ride report on my wifes' Expert to pro conversion including, high flow piston and Corex 5cst from Shockcraft.

Before I never really could get her fork to work properly for her weight. Changing the compression tune, low friction seals. Nothing really improved the fork to a good level. Well the above conversion proofed the ticket. She's very happy how the fork works now. 

So anyone looking at improving the small bump sensitivity of their Mattoc expert, I would seriously look at converting it to pro with the high flow piston.


----------



## Poprockz (Feb 27, 2019)

I see some mattoc pros on sale at crc for 239. Are these the real deal or is some feature missing on them? I figure they are oe but Just wanting to check.

Also do the 27.5+ take 29ers?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

It's probably real. Apparently they don't sell many 120mm 27.5+ forks. Do be aware that sometimes they mess up the description, but in those cases you can send it back and get refunded.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Just wanted to give a very short ride report on my wifes' Expert to pro conversion including, high flow piston and Corex 5cst from Shockcraft.
> 
> Before I never really could get her fork to work properly for her weight. Changing the compression tune, low friction seals. Nothing really improved the fork to a good level. Well the above conversion proofed the ticket. She's very happy how the fork works now.
> 
> So anyone looking at improving the small bump sensitivity of their Mattoc expert, I would seriously look at converting it to pro with the high flow piston.


Great to hear. The expert rebound piston created a significant amount of damping on compression, which you couldn't tune out. It's not a problem for standard size riders. But the lighter or less aggressive riders run out of tuning options.

The pro conversion means the shaft is a bigger % of the piston area so less oil needs to go through the piston. Combined with the high flow piston it means we can reduce that damping side effect to levels that are managable even for very light riders.

They get ride quality back, the pressure gradients in the damper are correct and the damping adjusters become usable again.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Poprockz said:


> I see some mattoc pros on sale at crc for 239. Are these the real deal or is some feature missing on them? I figure they are oe but Just wanting to check.
> 
> Also do the 27.5+ take 29ers?


27.5+ accepts 29" wheels

Appears to be real. Stickers in the pics make it look like it's a OEM takeoff


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Yes the 27.5+ take a 29er without a problem.

Enviado do meu Nexus 5 através do Tapatalk


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Poprockz said:


> I see some mattoc pros on sale at crc for 239. Are these the real deal or is some feature missing on them? I figure they are oe but Just wanting to check.
> 
> Also do the 27.5+ take 29ers?


Have been looking at the same fork as well - shipping charges are through the roof, though, which might explain why they haven't sold. Emailed and it sounded like there might have been an issue with the dimensions for the box they have in their system that was preventing it from qualifying for free shipping. Was told it might be fixed in the next day or so.

Anyone have any idea what the tire clearance is for 27.5+ on these? Looking for something that can run 27.5x3.0.

What's the warranty going to be like if these are oem takeoffs as speculated?


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

With Manitou releasing a new product line on 4.11 (J Unit) they are probably clearancing out old stock on everything. This would explain the cheap prices seen everywhere.


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## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

What year is that Mattoc Pro on CRC? That's a huge discount. Is there a good reason to go with an alternate year or model of the Mattoc?

@gregnash, where else are you seeing deals? I'd like to compare.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

JcConnell said:


> What year is that Mattoc Pro on CRC? That's a huge discount. Is there a good reason to go with an alternate year or model of the Mattoc?
> 
> @gregnash, where else are you seeing deals? I'd like to compare.


My best guess is possibly 2016 -- if you do a Google Shopping search, the listing for CRC comes up with 2016 in the title, but not on the product page.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Are you guys seeing $170 shipping fee from CRC? WTF?!? I can understand having to get rid of the free option, but $170 seems outrageous!


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

GuitsBoy said:


> Are you guys seeing $170 shipping fee from CRC? WTF?!? I can understand having to get rid of the free option, but $170 seems outrageous!


See a few posts back -- they apparently have the dimensions for the box wrong in their system, which is making the site flag it as not eligible for free shipping.

When I asked their customer service via email, they said it'll be fixed in the next day or so.

Someone else on Reddit called & was told they could order over the phone or wait for it to get fixed and order from the site (they were told Thursday for the fix).


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Not sure how I missed that. I searched the page for 170 and shipping, but must have fat fingered it. How I overlooked it, I have no idea! I guess I was fixated on the number instead. Thanks for knocking some sense into me. Bet they sell out fast once they fix it!


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

GuitsBoy said:


> Are you guys seeing $170 shipping fee from CRC? WTF?!? I can understand having to get rid of the free option, but $170 seems outrageous!


They probably have some of the shipping dimensions entered wrong for the moment, because it shows up as "bulky tracked delivery" and forks from CRC don't ever show up in that category. Any other fork currently on CRC shows up as "standard delivery" and qualifies for free shipping


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

FYI -- I did some playing around with quantity in the cart and it looks like there are 244 in stock.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

TimTucker said:


> FYI -- I did some playing around with quantity in the cart and it looks like there are 244 in stock.


242 in stock the second they fix the shipping issue!

Thanks for the info! Puts me at ease.


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## richulr (Jan 27, 2010)

So that 27.5 boost fork on chain reaction can handle 29er wheels? I wonder what the axel to crown length is? I also wonder how much you can increase the travel on it, if at all? And is it easy to change the travel if possible?


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## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

I think the 120MM options can be switched to 140MM. A bit further up it states that 27.5+ can handle 29 as well. I can't find the A-C measurements, but I'd like them as well.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

I have the magnum 27.5+ fork which I believe is identical aside from the name change. The 120 is indeed adjustable to 140mm by removing spacers, and if I recall, Dougal has modified these to 150mm by trimming down a non-removable spacer.

I can also vouch for the fork fitting a 29x2.35 nobby nic, though I much prefer the 27.5x3.0s on my bike.


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## Boom King (Jun 5, 2016)

Wiggle have them too, with a bit more info. Offset is listed at 44mm and they seem to have IRT by the look of it.

What bits need changing to make these 160mm if that's at all possible?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Boom King said:


> Wiggle have them too, with a bit more info. Offset is listed at 44mm and they seem to have IRT by the look of it.
> 
> What bits need changing to make these 160mm if that's at all possible?


Description looks off. I think those specs are from the normal 160mm boost mattoc pro, not the 27.5+. Most notably the weight is off. But awesome find, since the shipping is free!

I dont think youll be able to extend the 27.5+ version out to 160. Without serious hacking and modification, 140mm is the max I believe.

Here's some more info on it:
https://manitoumtb.com/product/mattoc-2/?cat_id=23

Should be 2033g weight, 48mm offset, 120-140 travel and 531mm axle-crown (@120 travel)

Anyway, this is a really good deal. Even more smokin' if it includes the IRT. I picked one up as a spare. Use coupon code NEWUS to bring the price down to $219.98 if its a new account. Also, befrugal has 2% cash back if that's your thing.


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## richulr (Jan 27, 2010)

Wait it's possible to make this 150mm with some ingenuity? Where can I read about this? Was that in this thread?

150mm is exactly what I'm looking for. Very interesting.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

richulr said:


> Wait it's possible to make this 150mm with some ingenuity? Where can I read about this? Was that in this thread?
> 
> 150mm is exactly what I'm looking for. Very interesting.


If you are talking about extending the travel of the Magnum to be 150mm then you need to talk to @dougal as he is the master that has come up with such items. He has given some information as to what is needed further back in the thread, basically it is a custom top-out bumper if I remember correctly.


----------



## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Looks like CRC reduced their shipping from $170 to $43 this morning. The Wiggle find is much better. Thank you, I ordered one!


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## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

How much room was there with the 29x2.35? Do you think most 29x2.4 would fit?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

JcConnell said:


> How much room was there with the 29x2.35? Do you think most 29x2.4 would fit?


I would think so. Looks to be about 10mm arch clearance with the 2.35s, though I haven't tested A-C. https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/6HXQOjpgTc2AMsC-80YxcA.mLxADFMCZLxUHH5OBYqeEw


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I run a Magic Mary 2.35" 29er on a Magnum, no problem with clearance.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

And they look to be all sold out on CRC or wiggle (same inventory I'm sure). Wow, that went pretty fast if it really was 244 units. 

I just really hope it was a genuine PRO model, since the picture looks like an ABS+ damper and a regular air chamber top cap.


----------



## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Mine should arrive Monday. How can I confirm it is what it said it is?


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

JcConnell said:


> Mine should arrive Monday. How can I confirm it is what it said it is?


Look for HBO on the damper, and hopefully IRT on the top of the air chamber. There are more differences, but I'm not sure theyre verifyable externally.


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Looks like the first review was posted to CRC claiming these to be a 27.5 COMP model and not a 27.5+ PRO model. MC2 and IRT are notably lacking. Pics included in the review.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost/rp-prod185732?gs=1

Should be an easy return due to incorrect / faulty item. Sucks that we'll probably have to go through the hassle of sending it back, but for the money it was worth rolling the dice. Bummer.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

I was the reddit guy who said they ordered one over the phone. ( which they did with free shipping ) 

Mine did get shipped, but now getting really worried/confused over what the hell i actually ordered? 

Currently I run a Suntour XCR Air 32 ( stock on my Raleigh Tokul 3 ) and was hoping for a cheap upgrade.

I'm mostly a road guy, and don't know too much about forks. 

Really a bummer if I have to return it because it doesn't fit ( all at my expense )

Guess i'll update when mine comes in. ( shipped from the netherlands? )


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, the Mattoc Comp still IS a cheap upgrade, with a much better damper (the XCR doesn't even have adjustable compression damping if I'm not mistaken) and chassis (34mm vs 32mm stanchions). However, the Mattoc Pro with MC2 damper is vastly better again. 
I would seriously consider buying a good 2.5 or 2.6 tire to complete the cheap upgrade.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

That would probably work, but if the fork can't take 2.8-3.0 tires, then its a hard pass for me. I specifically bought 27.5 plus due to me not being happy with some of the more narrow tired bikes I've tried before. 

I'd rather return and buy a proper 27.5+ fork for the price of this one and an expensive new tire.


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Fair enough.
Some well known German sites sell the Mattoc 27.5+"/29" 100mm Boost with Dorado Air spring incl. IVA and ABS+ damper for $300 and the 120mm for $425 shipped to the US.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Guessing they blocked sales due to reports of an incorrect listing rather than that it sold out.

Most items that sell out show as "out of stock" vs the "currently unavailable" message on the fork page now. Pretty sure that's the same message that shows if you go to a Shimano product page from the US.


----------



## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

I too was one of the poor sap's who fell for the great deal.

Currently running a Rockshox Recon on my Hawk Hill 2 and getting a lot of of flex when pushing it hard and unable to dial the pressure in properly for my size (270 fully loaded). Hopped on this deal and instead of receiving a fork I somehow received a set of carbon road wheels. Currently waiting for CRC to confirm their error but at this point I just want a full refund given the fact that it appears the fork is the comp and not the pro model.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

TimTucker said:


> Guessing they blocked sales due to reports of an incorrect listing rather than that it sold out.
> 
> Most items that sell out show as "out of stock" vs the "currently unavailable" message on the fork page now. Pretty sure that's the same message that shows if you go to a Shimano product page from the US.


Sucks that the listing is wrong. The pics do show a comp.

That said, the Mattoc comp is a really good fork. I have been on one for the last 8 months testing a few revisions and it performs just as good as a pro (minus the adjustable IRT spring). It just lacks the external adjustability, but the same features are there (HBO, dorado air, shimmed damper). I could argue the LSC adjustment is superior with the abs+ damper.

Imo, when the site corrects the specs, it's a worthy upgrade over most forks on the market.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

mullen119 said:


> Sucks that the listing is wrong. The pics do show a comp.
> .


The original pictures/AD that did not have much information show the PRO version.

Also current AD states it has all the PRO adjustments!!

"Adjustments: Low-speed Compression; Damping High-speed Compression Damping; Hydraulic Bottom Out; Rebound Damping; Beginning-stroke Air Pressure; Middle/End-stroke Air Pressure"

I am pissed I ordered one yesterday and it has already shipped, so too late to cancel and going to have to return.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Sucks that the listing is wrong. The pics do show a comp.
> 
> That said, the Mattoc comp is a really good fork. I have been on one for the last 8 months testing a few revisions and it performs just as good as a pro (minus the adjustable IRT spring). It just lacks the external adjustability, but the same features are there (HBO, dorado air, shimmed damper). I could argue the LSC adjustment is superior with the abs+ damper.
> 
> Imo, when the site corrects the specs, it's a worthy upgrade over most forks on the market.


The bigger issue to me is I'm building up a bike for my wife and already have 27.5x3.0 tires mounted on i40 rims waiting to go. If it's not a 27.5+ fork as described, it does me no good.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jixr said:


> That would probably work, but if the fork can't take 2.8-3.0 tires, then its a hard pass for me. I specifically bought 27.5 plus due to me not being happy with some of the more narrow tired bikes I've tried before.
> 
> I'd rather return and buy a proper 27.5+ fork for the price of this one and an expensive new tire.


One of my mates is running a 2.8" DHF in a 170mm Mattoc Pro Boost. It's beyond Manitou's recommendations (2.6" max which I run) but he's had no issues.

It basically halves your safety margin.

3.0" is out of the question. I'm very happy with 2.6".


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

In2falling said:


> The original pictures/AD that did not have much information show the PRO version.
> 
> Also current AD states it has all the PRO adjustments!!
> 
> ...





TimTucker said:


> The bigger issue to me is I'm building up a bike for my wife and already have 27.5x3.0 tires mounted on i40 rims waiting to go. If it's not a 27.5+ fork as described, it does me no good.


Completely understand, im not defending a website for mislabeling a product. Sucks for all the people who bought them and have to deal with the hassle of sending them back.

My point in my previous post is not about making them work for you guys. I am just pointing out that the comp is still a very good fork and when they get labeled correctly, they are still a steal at that price for those who can actually use them.


----------



## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Mine arrived today.

ABS+ on the damper. IVR on the other side. Sticker says Dorado Air on the back. What did I just get?


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

New model Comp


----------



## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

tdaniel93 said:


> I too was one of the poor sap's who fell for the great deal.
> 
> Currently running a Rockshox Recon on my Hawk Hill 2 and getting a lot of of flex when pushing it hard and unable to dial the pressure in properly for my size (270 fully loaded). Hopped on this deal and instead of receiving a fork I somehow received a set of carbon road wheels. Currently waiting for CRC to confirm their error but at this point I just want a full refund given the fact that it appears the fork is the comp and not the pro model.


Heck, for your inconvenience - you should just sell the carbon wheels and buy the fork you want.  Seriously, this happens a lot with CRC. A friend ordered a groupset and brakes...he received a frame. I've read other instances of this happening too.

Sounds like CRC is going to be receiving a bunch of returns.


----------



## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Well, it wasn't what I ordered but I could make it work. I've reached out to Wiggle to see what they can do. I would consider a partial refund if that ends up being an option.


----------



## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

kwapik said:


> Heck, for your inconvenience - you should just sell the carbon wheels and buy the fork you want.  Seriously, this happens a lot with CRC. A friend ordered a groupset and brakes...he received a frame. I've read other instances of this happening too.
> 
> Sounds like CRC is going to be receiving a bunch of returns.


I've certainly considered it, legally I can do whatever I want with them but morally I wouldn't feel great about holding on to and selling a set of $550 carbon clinchers. Still waiting on CRC's response to my return as they said they're "checking their stock" to verify the error.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JcConnell said:


> Mine arrived today.
> 
> ABS+ on the damper. IVR on the other side. Sticker says Dorado Air on the back. What did I just get?


You got an OEM spec Comp fork. It could be built to whatever spec the OEM wanted.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

JcConnell said:


> Mine arrived today.
> 
> ABS+ on the damper. IVR on the other side. Sticker says Dorado Air on the back. What did I just get?


can you confirm if it fits 27.5+ wheels or not?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jixr said:


> can you confirm if it fits 27.5+ wheels or not?



















For everyone reference, the 27.5+/29 model has a smaller, more rounded arch (top pic) and the 27.5 has a larger, flatter arch (bottom pic)

This is only true for the newer boost models. Older 27.5 forks share the same small arch as the 27.5+


----------



## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Here's an image I grabbed for Wiggle. Doesn't look like 27.5"+ according to the post above.



http://imgur.com/NR7Mlpz


----------



## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Ok, been riding the Mattoc Pro since last summer. Thinking I should go ahead and do a service as it's never been opened, plus I need to install IRT anyway.

Didn't find a service schedule. Checked out the service video but that's quite a bit. What is recommended I do?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

This guide is a nice start:
https://reachcontrol.wordpress.com/...ng-with-teardown-instructions-damper-removal/


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

Mine came in. Took it to the shop. It fits 275 x2.8 just fine and has travel adjust to 170! I set mine at 160 and it has just under 550 axle to crown.

^ what a guy on reddit told me this morning.

Starting to bring back some hope that this fork will fit my bike. No eta on a delivery date for me though, shipping from the netherlands for some reason.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Oh the video is already pretty thorough. Just wondering when to do the various services? I'm not servicing the damper every 6 months am I? or should I?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JcConnell said:


> Here's an image I grabbed for Wiggle. Doesn't look like 27.5"+ according to the post above.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/NR7Mlpz


That's the Mattoc Comp Boost. Fits 27x2.6". The webbed arch has only been used on the non plus boost fork and the Mastodon.

You've got the ABS+ damper.


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## JcConnell (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for the info. Doesn't look like Wiggle will give any concessions - no replacement, no partial refund. They'll accept a return at no cost to me. I understand where they're coming though so I'm not disappointed at all.

That being said, what's the value of the fork that I have? Is it worth $220? More? Could an MC2 damper be installed?

The next fork will replace an ABS+ Manitou Tower Pro 29. I've enjoyed the fork and it's been relentless but I was really excited at the idea of some extra adjustment. Just trying to decide whether to return and keep looking or just enjoy.


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

post from someone in reddit, that 2.8 tire looks super tight

https://i.redd.it/o74znjmb9xp21.jpg


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/b8pgm0


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jixr said:


> post from someone in reddit, that 2.8 tire looks super tight
> 
> https://i.redd.it/o74znjmb9xp21.jpg
> 
> ...


Need a front-on shot to know.

A mate runs DHF 2.8 in the Pro version (same lower legs) with no issues. I run a DHF 2.6 with the new mudguard which reduces clearance:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BvsQjPbnoO4/


__
http://instagr.am/p/BvcXOmcFmj8/


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> So Manitou is teasing "an exciting new product line in a completely new category for Manitou"
> 
> Any idea what it is?


The photos of dougals bike with a blurred out rear shock makes me think it might be a new rear shock? Perhaps something with a piggy back, if the pixelated blur is speaking to me the right way.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JcConnell said:


> Thanks for the info. Doesn't look like Wiggle will give any concessions - no replacement, no partial refund. They'll accept a return at no cost to me. I understand where they're coming though so I'm not disappointed at all.
> 
> That being said, what's the value of the fork that I have? Is it worth $220? More? Could an MC2 damper be installed?
> 
> The next fork will replace an ABS+ Manitou Tower Pro 29. I've enjoyed the fork and it's been relentless but I was really excited at the idea of some extra adjustment. Just trying to decide whether to return and keep looking or just enjoy.


Comp forks have softer aluminium stanchions with thicker walls. So you can't just drop the MC^2 dampers in.

ABS+ is still no slouch. But you've got more weight from the heavier stanchions and more oil in the damper.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

I'm on the fence about keeping the mattoc comp as well. For me, its not so much the weight of the comp, but the lack of IRT. I really fell in love with the IRT and after much tweaking found fantastic small bump compliance yet plenty of support. I have a mattoc pro without the IRT on another bike and I just cant get the same winning combo. I've seen at least one account of the IRT installed on a comp, but I'm not convinced it wasn't actually an expert instead of a comp. The official word is that the IRT wont fit the comp.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

GuitsBoy said:


> I'm on the fence about keeping the mattoc comp as well. For me, its not so much the weight of the comp, but the lack of IRT. I really fell in love with the IRT and after much tweaking found fantastic small bump compliance yet plenty of support. I have a mattoc pro without the IRT on another bike and I just cant get the same winning combo. I've seen at least one account of the IRT installed on a comp, but I'm not convinced it wasn't actually an expert instead of a comp. The official word is that the IRT wont fit the comp.


I am returning the falsely advertised Mattoc to CRC today and keeping my Pike.

Bike-Discount selling the same 27.5 fork CRC falsely advertised along with what looks like same fork in 27.5+/29 version.

27.5+/29
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-27.5-29-120-tapered-sl-boost-801392

27.5
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-27.5-120-tapered-sl-boost-802112


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Has anybody attempted to fit the IVA sliding seal on an IRT shaft? 

I'm wondering if you could make an IRT for the newer comp forks that come with the IVA by swapping sliding piston/seals?


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

got my CRC fork in










my 2.8's seem to fit, leaving about 1/4" / 6mm of clearance. Is that enough? I don't ride in mud, so it seems like it would be okay?

I just don't know enough about forks to decide to keep it and use it as is or return it and buy something else with that $250 ( don't know what other fork I could buy with that )

What do you guys say?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

GuitsBoy said:


> Has anybody attempted to fit the IVA sliding seal on an IRT shaft?
> 
> I'm wondering if you could make an IRT for the newer comp forks that come with the IVA by swapping sliding piston/seals?


I haven't, but I have an IVA and and the IRT for my Magnun, I'm on the third day of servicing it .
I can check and post the results later.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

jixr said:


> got my CRC fork in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I rode 2.8+ tires on a non boost x-fusion fork with only 4mm or 3/16 clearance, and it was fine. Still have that setup on my singlespeed. Like you said, just avoid riding in mud.

EDIT: As Aglo mentioned, check tire to crown clearance when fully compressed.

If you need to buy a fork anyway, seems like youll have a hard time finding anything comparable for the price IMO. But if you were buying the fork as an "upgrade", that's where the pro would have been the better deal.

Sounds like while it may not be quite the amazing deal we thought it was, its still a really good for for a really good price if it suits your needs.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

jixr said:


> got my CRC fork in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Install the pump, full compress the fork, check for clearance between the tire and the crown, not the arc.
Depending on how much clearance you have, it may be, or not be ok for you to run that tire


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Aglo said:


> I haven't, but I have an IVA and and the IRT for my Magnun, I'm on the third day of servicing it .
> I can check and post the results later.


Assuming the IVA and IRT were both from a pro model, I'm not sure it will give us a definitive answer about the comp. The comp looks to have a different black piston. No idea if the shaft is the same between the Pro IVA and Comp IVA.

I'm hoping my comp gets here tomorrow. I have a magnum with IRT that I could use to test with, but once I crack the comp open, I wont be able to return it. I was hoping someone might have some answers before I take a $240 gamble.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Yes, they are both for the Pro version.
I will measure both IVA and IRT shaft with a caliper and post the measurements, you can than compare with the comp shaft.


P.S.- I missed the second part of your post.


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> I rode 2.8+ tires on a non boost x-fusion fork with only 4mm or 3/16 clearance, and it was fine. Still have that setup on my singlespeed. Like you said, just avoid riding in mud.
> 
> EDIT: As Aglo mentioned, check tire to crown clearance when fully compressed.
> 
> ...


It was more of a want than a need, current fork ( suntour xcr air ) is fine minus the broken lockout, which i never use or need in my area anyway. My thought was that it seemed to be a good deal and might as well jump on it.

Though do note I am running faily narrow rims for 2.8 tires, in my picture they do measure 2.8" My bike came with 50mm rims which 2.8's measured 3" on so if you have wide rims it may not fit.

I ran home on my lunch break to grab the fork from the post office, but i'll try to install it tonight and see if it clears under compression.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

jixr said:


> It was more of a want than a need, current fork ( suntour xcr air ) is fine minus the broken lockout


I disagree. If youre coming from a suntour xcr, this is a need. Borderline desperate need at that.

Not to disparage suntour, as they make some decent high end forks, and theyre the OEM for DVO, but even the comp model mattoc is moving up quite a few tiers from the xcr.


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> I disagree. If youre coming from a suntour xcr, this is a need. Borderline desperate need at that.
> 
> Not to disparage suntour, as they make some decent high end forks, and theyre the OEM for DVO, but even the comp model mattoc is moving up quite a few tiers from the xcr.


thats good to hear, i'm not a huge mtb'r, more of a road/gravel guy, and in my area ( austin tx ) its nothing but short rocky climbs with stair step rock ledges everywhere. ( why i chose 27.5+ over 27.5/29, need the grip on the dusty loose rock ) A good hard tail is all you need in my area.

On my bike ( raleigh tokul 3 ) the fork is the only stock thing i have left on it, changed to lighter wheels/tires, wider bars and xt brakes

This weekend its supposed to be heavy rain, so i'll do the compression clearance test, and if it works i'll get it installed and post my old fork for sale for cheap to help recoup the cost.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

There is ~0.7mm stanchion ID difference at the top between Pro and Comp.

If you were to get creative a Pro IRT could be modified to fit. But you need to modify the piston OD and design the new seal groove.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> There is ~0.7mm stanchion ID difference at the top between Pro and Comp.
> 
> If you were to get creative a Pro IRT could be modified to fit. But you need to modify the piston OD and design the new seal groove.


Thanks Dougal. But rather than modify the pro IRT piston to fit the smaller comp stanchion, could you simply replace the piston with the one from the comp IVA? Are the shafts the same OD?

Is there something else I'm missing, like would it tilt and get jammed up?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Thanks Dougal. But rather than modify the pro IRT piston to fit the smaller comp stanchion, could you simply replace the piston with the one from the comp IVA? Are the shafts the same OD?
> 
> Is there something else I'm missing, like would it tilt and get jammed up?


Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.


Still awaiting delivery of the comp, but if nothing immediately comes to mind that would keep it from working, I'll do just that.

Thanks again.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.


ARRRGGGGHHH!!!! So close!

My mattoc comp came in. Cleared my 2.8+ tires just fine, so I pulled the IVA to attempt to swap air pistons and test fit the IRT. As you said, the shaft diameters were the same, and the piston fit. But when I went to install the IRT in, it just wouldnt go. While they look identical, there's a slightly different air cap thread diameter to the pro and the comp. No good. Gonna put the new fork back to stock and ship it back I guess.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

That's a bummer.
But wasn't there some Comp forks with IRT?
That means that you could possibly order Comp's compatible IRT from Manitou.
Me thinks .


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> ARRRGGGGHHH!!!! So close!
> 
> My mattoc comp came in. Cleared my 2.8+ tires just fine, so I pulled the IVA to attempt to swap air pistons and test fit the IRT. As you said, the shaft diameters were the same, and the piston fit. But when I went to install the IRT in, it just wouldnt go. While they look identical, there's a slightly different air cap thread diameter to the pro and the comp. No good. Gonna put the new fork back to stock and ship it back I guess.


That may be a generational change to the threads instead of a comp/pro change.

Got any thread gauges handy?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> That may be a generational change to the threads instead of a comp/pro change.
> 
> Got any thread gauges handy?


Sorry, no thread gauges in that size. I mic'd them up, but didnt record the sizes before i put the forks back together. From hazy memory, the thread OD was about .025" different between the two, which is almost the 0.7mm difference in stanchion ID you mentioned.

The IRT cap was off of a 2016 magnum pro that came with IVA originally.
The IVA cap was off the 2018 mattoc comp OE from the recent wiggle sale.

Not sure if any of that is helpful or means anything. Let me know if you want me to check anything specifically.

Are there two different parts for the IRT, older and newer threads? Thanks again!


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?

For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, the fork still compresses more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

xeren said:


> Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?
> 
> For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, it still moves more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?


Changing the order will lower the compression damping rather than increasing.

I suppose you the two pairs of shims with two shims with the combined thickness. That will firm it up considerably.

But prolly best to wait for advice from the more knowledgeable.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

CS645 said:


> I suppose you the two pairs of shims with two shims with the combined thickness. That will firm it up considerably.


That makes sense - I'm assuming it will also make it harder to turn the HSC dial, but it may not even need as much preload?

Time to open it up and measure the shims


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

Update on the ChainReactionCycles Fork

They offered a full refund if you send it back, or to keep it and get a 20£ gift card as a good will gesture. 

I'm kinda stuck with what to do. My current tire/wheel combo fits, but leaves zero room for mud clearance, with a 2.8 tire its only about 1/8" clearance between the top of the knobs and the fork arch. 

the true 27.5+ version of this fork that someone posted a while back is about $100 more than the CRC version is, which the $250 for this one is already at my max. 

I could take the $20 gift card and use it on CRC to a manitou fork that is 27.5+, but their website is pretty confusing i'm not sure which one to get/trust, and in the meantime just re-sell the fork i have locally. 

Any guidance on what to do? I want a fork upgrade, just don't know what to do.


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

jixr said:


> They offered a full refund if you send it back, or to keep it and get a 20£ gift card as a good will gesture.
> 
> Any guidance on what to do? I want a fork upgrade, just don't know what to do.


Do you ride a lot of mud? Or are you worried about getting stuck out there one time?

I've already mounted mine on my singlespeed. After working through my initial disappointment, I decided it would be very difficult to find another fork this good for anything near this price. For my needs the HSC and adjustable HBO are not necessary on this bike. And the fork that was on there had just about identical clearance. I haven't taken a ride yet, but initial curb hopping seems promising. Its still a really good deal IMO.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

No, I don't ride a lot of mud, in my area you stay off the trails when its muddy, they don't handle rain well at all. 

yeah, thats where i'm stuck. I know if I return it, I won't be able to find anything as good, or would have to spend an extra $100 at least to get something equivalent and won't be able to buy anything for a month or so until they get the item back and the bank issues a refund. 

I could move to 2.6 tires later on if i wanted, but my current tires have plenty of life, and I don't ride often enough to burn through them super quickly, and don't have funds to spend for a new set of tires.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

You mentioned 1/8 of an inch clearance to the arch. What about the sides? The tire doesnt really grow much vertically, but theres plenty of possibility for lateral movement especially with a flexy wheel.

Here's the clearance I have. 2.8 Nobby Nics on i45 nexties. They measure almost exactly 3.00" across. Nearly identical to what I had with my last fork, so Ill run this without thinking twice.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

xeren said:


> That makes sense - I'm assuming it will also make it harder to turn the HSC dial, but it may not even need as much preload?
> 
> Time to open it up and measure the shims


Perhaps my suggestion would not work since without spacer shims the actual damping shims don't have enough room to move out of the way? Dougal or Mullen will probably be able to advise. I zuppose it would be a lot easier fo just try thicker oil?

From the top of my head the shims sequence is something like:

10 12 0.1
10 21 0.2

8 11 0.25
8 17.5 0.1


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

here is my clearance










Bad photo, doesn't show the sides that well from that angle. 
( tire is a veetire co crown gem 2.8, measures 3" )

I definitely can not fit a finger between the tire and fork arch, and know if i ever pick up a muddy rock its going to beat up the fork pretty badly.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

CS645 said:


> Perhaps my suggestion would not work since without spacer shims the actual damping shims don't have enough room to move out of the way? Dougal or Mullen will probably be able to advise. I zuppose it would be a lot easier fo just try thicker oil?
> 
> From the top of my head the shims sequence is something like:
> 
> ...


Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.

Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?


----------



## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

xeren said:


> Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?
> 
> For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, the fork still compresses more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?


Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)


----------



## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

xeren said:


> Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.
> 
> Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?


From memory the 10 ID ones. Info should also be upthread somewhere. But yeah the thread grew into a bit of a monster.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.
> 
> Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?


Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.

The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded

I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Here's what the clearance on the CRC fork looks like with a WTB Ranger TCS 27.5x3.0 on i40 rim -- it's nowhere near enough for me to consider it safe to ride on:






















I did try dropping the pressure down to 0 psi and compressing the fork to check clearance vs. the crown in addition to the clearance to the arch, but in my quick attempts, I couldn't get the crown to compress down any lower than the arch.

Returning at this point to get something designed for 27.5+.

(Edit: made a note above images to clarify that the photos are to show that there isn't enough room for a real plus sized tire, not to show that it's workable)


----------



## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Is the fork at max PSI, LSC and HSC still moving too much? I can't imagine, because if I close both compression circuits with normal PSI, the fork only moves on really hard impacts.


----------



## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.
> 
> The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded
> 
> I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.


Thanks again, mullen119! What if I didn't care about the HSC adjustment, could I just stuff the damper with more 8mm ID shims? Would it still operate properly otherwise, at least from the standpoint of avoiding some critical damage to the damper?



fsrxc said:


> Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)


That's a good thought - i'm nowhere near the max, and I already have the psi up about 20psi over what i normally had it at when it was used for mtb, i don't want to have too little sag, but i might experiment with upping it even more if I can keep, say, 10% sag


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

Good luck trying to return them. Since i ordered over the phone they won't give me a return slip, and only offered a pick up when i'm not home, or for me to ship it back myself and they would somehow refund my shipping cost. 

100% false advertising on their part.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

jixr said:


> Good luck trying to return them. Since i ordered over the phone they won't give me a return slip, and only offered a pick up when i'm not home, or for me to ship it back myself and they would somehow refund my shipping cost.
> 
> 100% false advertising on their part.


I ordered online through Wiggle and decided to return.

Contacted them and was told to mark it as a return with "Wrong Item Sent" as the reason and was able to print out a prepaid shipping label to send it back.

Looks like I should be able to just drop it off at the local post office.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

they are not giving me that option, only to keep it and get a $20 gift card, or return it. 

Exchanging it for the item that matches what they advertised, what i paid for, or an equal equivalent is out of the question for them and their email support has been super unhelpful. They are now claiming the forks as "our property" as if i took them from them. what a joke of a company.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TimTucker said:


> Here's what the clearance on the CRC fork looks like with a WTB Ranger TCS 27.5x3.0 on i40 rim:
> View attachment 1246177
> 
> View attachment 1246178
> ...


You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?

The issue besides static clearance is wheel flex. When you bottom out hard the flex in everything puts the wheel and tyre even closer to the crown and brace.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?
> 
> The issue besides static clearance is wheel flex. When you bottom out hard the flex in everything puts the wheel and tyre even closer to the crown and brace.


Hence why it's getting returned and I'll be buying a fork that's actually designed for 27.5x3.0 tires from somewhere else.

It's for my wife's first mtb, so better safe than sorry.


----------



## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

Dougal said:


> You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?


Which would have not been a problem if CRC didn't sell the fork claiming it as a 27.5+ fork while shipping the regular 27.5 version. He got screwed like the rest of us did.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jixr said:


> Which would have not been a problem if CRC didn't sell the fork claiming it as a 27.5+ fork while shipping the regular 27.5 version. He got screwed like the rest of us did.


Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.

IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.
> 
> IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.


I added some notes to my original post to make it clearer that the photos are to show for future reference that there's not enough clearance for 3.0 tires, not that it's workable.

I tossed the tire on & took the photos before work and the more I look at them, the more I can imagine a small branch or rock getting sucked up by the tire and my wife going over the bars.

Might be helpful if you can update your response that quotes the original post to include the updated text.

There are indeed some sandy sections on the local trails that I'll be riding with my wife -- the 3" tires should make those a little easier on her.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TimTucker said:


> I added some notes to my original post to make it clearer that the photos are to show for future reference that there's not enough clearance for 3.0 tires, not that it's workable.
> 
> I tossed the tire on & took the photos before work and the more I look at them, the more I can imagine a small branch or rock getting sucked up by the tire and my wife going over the bars.
> 
> ...


I've added in your edit.

One of my mates has the Pro version of this fork with a DHF 2.8" and he runs that without issues.


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> Thanks again, mullen119! What if I didn't care about the HSC adjustment, could I just stuff the damper with more 8mm ID shims? Would it still operate properly otherwise, at least from the standpoint of avoiding some critical damage to the damper?
> 
> That's a good thought - i'm nowhere near the max, and I already have the psi up about 20psi over what i normally had it at when it was used for mtb, i don't want to have too little sag, but i might experiment with upping it even more if I can keep, say, 10% sag


I wouldn't stuff it full of shims, but you could add an extra shim to either stack. I haven't had time to look at my notes. Switching the 10x21x.2 for a .25 will make a significant difference as well and not change spacing much as another option


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.
> 
> The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded
> 
> I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.





fsrxc said:


> Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)





mullen119 said:


> I wouldn't stuff it full of shims, but you could add an extra shim to either stack. I haven't had time to look at my notes. Switching the 10x21x.2 for a .25 will make a significant difference as well and not change spacing much as another option


awesome, thanks, i'll give that a try! I have .2 shims around of the OD you recommended, just not .1 shims, so if that doesn't work i'll order the .1 8mm shims you mentioned earlier.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.
> 
> IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.


Assuming you're not using the full travel, and are willing to accept an extra 10mm axle to crown, couldn't you just take a spacer from the the compression rod stack and move it under the bottom out bumper? The downside would be HBO wouldn't work so well since youre effectively removing the last 10mm of travel from the dampers point of view.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Assuming you're not using the full travel, and are willing to accept an extra 10mm axle to crown, couldn't you just take a spacer from the the compression rod stack and move it under the bottom out bumper? The downside would be HBO wouldn't work so well since youre effectively removing the last 10mm of travel from the dampers point of view.


That will fix the crown clearance, while disrupting HBO, but you've still got the low brace.

I think 2.8" is the best solution.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> That will fix the crown clearance, while disrupting HBO, but you've still got the low brace.
> 
> I think 2.8" is the best solution.


I would agree. But in my case (which is similar to the above post) I'm already running 2.8s that measure just about 3" on i45 rims. I'm not willing to drop down to 2.6s though. I have yet to check crown clearance, but if I find it to be particularly tight, I may try to shim the bottom-out bumper by 5mm if possible. That would give me a little extra safety with the crown, but should retain most of the HBO (not that I ever hit it). This would be on my singlespeed that will never see any mud, so a tight arch is a bit more acceptable. My primary bike has a magnum pro, so no worries about clearance there.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> I would agree. But in my case (which is similar to the above post) I'm already running 2.8s that measure just about 3" on i45 rims. I'm not willing to drop down to 2.6s though. I have yet to check crown clearance, but if I find it to be particularly tight, I may try to shim the bottom-out bumper by 5mm if possible. That would give me a little extra safety with the crown, but should retain most of the HBO (not that I ever hit it). This would be on my singlespeed that will never see any mud, so a tight arch is a bit more acceptable. My primary bike has a magnum pro, so no worries about clearance there.


A 2.8 might be close in width to a 3.0, but it will be lower height.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Yes. But I can't say.
> 
> 11th April isn't that far away.........


Anybody have any updates?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Vespasianus said:


> Anybody have any updates?


Just looked at their website and nothing major showing up. Only thing I found was they have a Markhor J-unit fork that is a 20"/24" fork..


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> Just looked at their website and nothing major showing up. Only thing I found was they have a Markhor J-unit fork that is a 20"/24" fork..


Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.

The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.

I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

mullen119 said:


> Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.
> 
> The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.
> 
> I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer


So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

mullen119 said:


> Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.
> 
> The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.
> 
> I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer


Is this going to make me want to hold off buying a new 130mm Mattoc Pro in the next month to so? I know they updated the Mattoc last year so I can't see major upgrades coming to it.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

gregnash said:


> So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.


I don't know when it will be. All I can say is it will be worth the wait.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tdaniel93 said:


> Is this going to make me want to hold off buying a new 130mm Mattoc Pro in the next month to so? I know they updated the Mattoc last year so I can't see major upgrades coming to it.


I would feel good about buying a Mattoc pro


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Something we have all been asking for... long travel 29ER Mattoc Pro (meaning 140mm to 170mm for standard 29er tires up to 2.5") with multiple offsets available. 

Or at least that is what I am hoping for. Also noticed that the McLeod is the only shock now showing on the website, so anticipating a coil version and possibly piggyback version of the "McLeod".


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.
> 
> The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.
> 
> I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer


Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
https://forums.mtbr.com/families-ri...ork-option-manitou-machete-junit-1101268.html

I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

TimTucker said:


> Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
> https://forums.mtbr.com/families-ri...ork-option-manitou-machete-junit-1101268.html
> 
> I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?


Think that TrailCraft bikes uses tapered or 1.5" steerer forks.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

TimTucker said:


> Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
> https://forums.mtbr.com/families-ri...ork-option-manitou-machete-junit-1101268.html
> 
> I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?


I believe a few oem's requested it. It's a high end fork for kids standards, a solid mid grade fork in the adult world. Kona was a big one and a version is on the process 24


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

gregnash said:


> So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.


Given the photos of Dougals bike with a blurred out rear shock and Manitou teasing base valves that look similar but not the same as the Mcleod parts, i would say there is certainly a new rear shock coming. Fork wise who knows?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> Anybody have any updates?


https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-machete-junit-forks-juniors-1101283.html


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Some time ago Manitou had on the webpage a photo of a Trunnion Mount shock, I hope that's not the big news.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aglo said:


> Some time ago Manitou had on the webpage a photo of a Trunnion Mount shock, I hope that's not the big news.


That's not todays news. Today is about the J-unit range and the Dominion A2 brakes. 2 piston version of the Dominion A4.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I know, I was referring to the next news .


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Aglo said:


> I know, I was referring to the next news .


Patience grasshopper!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

shmity said:


> Given the photos of Dougals bike with a blurred out rear shock and Manitou teasing base valves that look similar but not the same as the Mcleod parts, i would say there is certainly a new rear shock coming. Fork wise who knows?


Well don't forget that we have seen articles from bikes out at parks like whistler that were running an unbadged Manitou fork that was longer travel and 29er. It has been something they have been working on since they brought out the Mattoc/Magnum a couple years back so probably just working out the kinks of shorter offset and longer travel with the reverse rear arch.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Well don't forget that we have seen articles from bikes out at parks like whistler that were running an unbadged Manitou fork that was longer travel and 29er. It has been something they have been working on since they brought out the Mattoc/Magnum a couple years back so probably just working out the kinks of shorter offset and longer travel with the reverse rear arch.


Also. Sea-Otter is an XC event. Not really the target market for releasing a burly fork.


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

Joe at takeahikeshop.com has a 140mm 27.5 mattoc pro, it is 160mm travel reduced to 140mm. I'm sure he'd make a deal on it. If anyone is interested hit up their email or text line.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Looking good.

https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/sp...n-spotted-sun-ringle-super-bubba-hubs-return/

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

croakies said:


> Looking good.
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/sp...n-spotted-sun-ringle-super-bubba-hubs-return/
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Seriously with the graphics?! Hopefully they will be easily removable and have a "blacked out" set. Two forks shown were 27.5" so hopefully there is a full 29er in there as well (or at least 27.5+/29)

New piggyback shock is interesting too.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

croakies said:


> Looking good.
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/sp...n-spotted-sun-ringle-super-bubba-hubs-return/
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Interesting!

On a different note. I changed my Mattoc from the expert to the pro and installed the high flow piston. No other changes made. Now the rebound seems quite fast.

I'm wondering if I somehow made a mistake reassembling. I slowly cycled the damper side to get the air out so can't imagine that being the cause. Filled it up to 75mm.

Anyway, gonna ride it first and see how it feels on the trail.


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Seriously with the graphics?! Hopefully they will be easily removable and have a "blacked out" set. Two forks shown were 27.5" so hopefully there is a full 29er in there as well (or at least 27.5+/29)


C'mon! That's OG Manitou graphics!!!

Los (whose first suspension fork was a Manitou 2...)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

sslos said:


> C'mon! That's OG Manitou graphics!!!
> 
> Los (whose first suspension fork was a Manitou 2...)
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


LOL... yeah I know, just DESPISE crap like that, that is overly garish and annoying/obtrusive. At least if you are going to do that, then make the stickers/decal easily removable.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm sure you can remove them, but don't find the decals that attention grabbing myself to be honest.


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## shiny (Jul 4, 2007)

croakies said:


> Looking good.
> 
> https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/sp...n-spotted-sun-ringle-super-bubba-hubs-return/
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Like the look of the HSC/LSC adjusters but where is the HBO!

The rear shock looks good too, the piggyback is huge!


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## sherwin24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I like the decals, looks clean. If production ones are the same I would say they are easily the best looking forks on the market. I like the polished look too.

The HBO not being there seems like a strange omission. Hopefully it's just for the proto's. The article just said multi control damper not MC2. Perhaps with IRT the HBO isn't needed as much, which would leave more room for something with even more adjustment?


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

It more than likely has HBO but non adjustable, the Dorado also has non adjustable HBO.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mezzer discussion thread here: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-susp...ng-travel-fork-spotted-sea-otter-1101508.html

Stickers are the easiest thing to change. I think silver is a VIP colour. Like Hannes Klausner on the silver Mattoc. But we shall see.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools

anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

xeren said:


> sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools
> 
> anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap


Depends on the knob, but if it has the aluminium knob with plate and the plate has been put in the wrong orientation (i.e. notch not lined up with tab) then it doesn't like to turn.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools
> 
> anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap


Take the knob off carefully and check the spring/detent balls to make sure they are installed correctly


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Depends on the knob, but if it has the aluminium knob with plate and the plate has been put in the wrong orientation (i.e. notch not lined up with tab) then it doesn't like to turn.


thanks for the reply, dougal- so would just unscrewing the 2mm bolt and re-seating it potentially fix it?

i wasn't having the problem when i sent it in- would they have even touched the uppers for a bushing/lowers swap?


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Take the knob off carefully and check the spring/detent balls to make sure they are installed correctly


will do, thanks! I'll report back for posterity in case anyone else encounters the same


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> thanks for the reply, dougal- so would just unscrewing the 2mm bolt and re-seating it potentially fix it?
> 
> i wasn't having the problem when i sent it in- would they have even touched the uppers for a bushing/lowers swap?


There is no reason to, but Manitou is a company that goes above and beyond, so they may have done a full rebuild or updated other parts while it was in. Hard to say exactly what happened,but it's likely a minor issue.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

Anyone have any suggestions on which Mattoc I should get?

I was one of the ones who purchased the mislabeled Mattoc Pro from CRC. CRC sent me carbon wheels instead so I didn't have the option to just keep what they sent and take a $20 gift card.


I'm a 260 pound Clyde and will be buying a mattoc in the next month or two. My question is whether or not I should get the pro or the comp? Gonna be running it at 140mm on my hawk Hill and do some pretty rocky/rooty stuff in SC and WNC. I'm worried I might pack up the Comp after multiple big hits vs the Pro.

Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> There is no reason to, but Manitou is a company that goes above and beyond, so they may have done a full rebuild or updated other parts while it was in. Hard to say exactly what happened,but it's likely a minor issue.


well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!

BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

xeren said:


> well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!
> 
> BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow


I can't comment on bushing slop, I have only personally experienced tight bushings that bind. I would hope the replacements are better.

As for the rebound damper, a new piston was developed in the past year that allows more flow on the compression stroke on the comp models. I'm guessing they upgraded you since you mentioned a possible issue. 0


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

xeren said:


> well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!
> 
> BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow


It looks like they have production issues with mattoc boost forks. I am on my third mattoc boost pro and it still has bushings play. Also, it binds greatly under even slight side force. Exactly the same as the previous two forks. Each time, they changed the whole fork. All three were red and made in November 2017. It will probably go to the warranty again soon enough, but don't know what to do next. I don't expect the fourth one to be ok, honestly...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

s-master said:


> It looks like they have production issues with mattoc boost forks. I am on my third mattoc boost pro and it still has bushings play. Also, it binds greatly under even slight side force. Exactly the same as the previous two forks. Each time, they changed the whole fork. All three were red and made in November 2017. It will probably go to the warranty again soon enough, but don't know what to do next. I don't expect the fourth one to be ok, honestly...


If you had play in the top-right bushing, that has been sorted at production some time ago. 
But we've still got to mop up the forks out there with an issue. It only affects the 27" boost models and not all of them.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

gregnash said:


> So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.


3 months wait was the info I was given to wait as I'm after a smaller offset fork


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

POAH said:


> 3 months wait was the info I was given to wait as I'm after a smaller offset fork


If you're looking for 27.5, the 26'' model/lowers has 41mm vs.the 27.5' 44mm


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

CS645 said:


> If you're looking for 27.5, the 26'' model/lowers has 41mm vs.the 27.5' 44mm


already got a 27.5 mattoc pro. wanting a 37mm offset fork


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah then the 26 lowers is closest you can get at the moment. No idea what Manitou has in the pipeline regarding lower offsets.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

At what point do you decide to reshim the HSC internally vs trying to change dials?

I am 140lbs with Mattoc with IRT (32psi main spring 48 IRT, HBO almost all the way in, HSC +3, LSC +1) at 140mm and am trying to set it up better for roots. The balance I am having a hard time finding is eating the roots w/o being too wallowy under hard pedaling.

I saw a post buried in here about trying low main air, but turn up LSC. I haven't experimented with that one yet. 

If this doesn't work well, I am wondering if I should go in an reshim the damper. I had an ABS+ before so have some shims on hand and a little experience.

EDIT- in doing more reading, maybe it is time for Dougal's high-flow damper?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Sorry, but it's not possible to have no pedal bob and very good compliance at the same time, mayby don't pedal as standing?
You could also try to run low speed compression fully closed and less hsc, with lsc almost fully open the hsc doesn't help with pedal bob at all, while affecting bump absorbtion by a lot.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

That's a lot of hsc for very little air in the spring. Maybe add some air and back off hsc and you could add some lsc


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ashwinearl said:


> At what point do you decide to reshim the HSC internally vs trying to change dials?
> 
> I am 140lbs with Mattoc with IRT (32psi main spring 48 IRT, HBO almost all the way in, HSC +3, LSC +1) at 140mm and am trying to set it up better for roots. The balance I am having a hard time finding is eating the roots w/o being too wallowy under hard pedaling.
> 
> ...


What kind of bike do you have? Im a seated pedaler (Bronson v1) so of course under hard pedaling I don't have a problem with the fork, and the vpp2 I guess likes seated pedaling better, I think.

I was 145 now I'm 133 (yikes, family has a history of high cholesterol so a diagnosis this year got me watching what I eat a little the pounds just wasted away) so I'm very interested in what numbers you settle on. I have an IRT I haven't installed but will. Have you tried a higher IRT pressure? Oh and what is your travel? I'm on 160mm but debating going back down to 150/150.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> What kind of bike do you have? Im a seated pedaler (Bronson v1) so of course under hard pedaling I don't have a problem with the fork, and the vpp2 I guess likes seated pedaling better, I think.
> 
> I was 145 now I'm 133 (yikes, family has a history of high cholesterol so a diagnosis this year got me watching what I eat a little the pounds just wasted away) so I'm very interested in what numbers you settle on. I have an IRT I haven't installed but will. Have you tried a higher IRT pressure? Oh and what is your travel? I'm on 160mm but debating going back down to 150/150.


Wow that is a lot of weight to drop percentage bodyweight wise. Good job.

I am riding a Kona Hei Hei trail 140mm/140mm. It uses their Fuse rear end suspension which is has stiffer pedaling characteristics. I like its seated pedaling. One issue I need to look into is potentially having the rebound too fast on the rear end.

In scanning through past posts in this thread (yes all 45 pages of mostly pure gold), one nugget stood out: "...The main thing with fork dive is to stop the rear shock accentuating it with rapid rebound from sag."

I have to deal with lots of roots, so am focused on being able to suck up these small square edged, high-speed events. The other part of the optimization is minimizing wallow bouncing under heavy pedaling. I am not looking for XC type platform, and don't expect a stiff fork while at the same time being able to take the roots. But, I still haven't found the happy spot between the two.

I have the IRT, and based on past posts, keep the IRT within 20psi of the main spring usually.

I have motorex 2.5wt oil in the damper, have the new seals, and use Fox 20wt as bath oil, and have slikoleum on top of the spring.

My plans for experimenting are:
-Lower main air, combined with higher LSC
-increase rebound compression on my rear end
-retesting impact of clicks in HSC combined with clicks in LSC. Past posts discuss the preload that the HSC puts on the top part of the shim stack which magnifies the impact of a click of LSC. 
-get a high flow damper from Dougal
-get the hot pink oil from Dougal


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

My wife had problems with harshness and diving with her 135lbs on her Mattoc expert with IRT. The air pressure was either low with slightly less harshness but too much dive or no dive but too harsch.

Converted to the pro assembly with the high flow piston and it's night and day for her. She can now ride the air pressure that is needed with much better small bump comfort and being able to look much further ahead because of absent trail vibration. She's really happy with it.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Wow that is a lot of weight to drop percentage bodyweight wise. Good job.
> 
> I am riding a Kona Hei Hei trail 140mm/140mm. It uses their Fuse rear end suspension which is has stiffer pedaling characteristics. I like its seated pedaling. One issue I need to look into is potentially having the rebound too fast on the rear end.
> 
> ...


Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from. Manitou's own recommendation is 40psi split

Dougals piston is good, so if you having harshness issues, it's a good way to give you a way to dial it out. The hot oil pink oil is not something you will notice a change with though. I'd spend the money on some supergliss instead. Any quality oil with a [email protected] of 14-15 will work fine. Motorex 2.5 or Maxima 5wt are more than good enough.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from.


This came from a post in here from Dougal when he was discussing identifying a starting pressure for IRT. "...So I tell people now. Take your main pressure, use 10psi less in the lower chamber, 10psi more in the top and then tune from there...."


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## SlowTri (Apr 10, 2012)

Looking for a bit of info on the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 Boost fork. It's showing 120mm but it looks like the travel guide shows it's possible to reduce to a 100mm fork or go upto 140 with spacer changes. All the other websites / info I see shows 120-140mm adjustment only. I'd like to go 100mm for an XC bike. Anyone know which is correct?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> This came from a post in here from Dougal when he was discussing identifying a starting pressure for IRT. "...So I tell people now. Take your main pressure, use 10psi less in the lower chamber, 10psi more in the top and then tune from there...."


Interesting. I personally run 55-99 in my 160mm Mattoc pro boost. Pressures that close together mimic a normal air spring set up and lack the mid stroke support I personally expect from the IRT system.

Set ups are personal though, everyone looks for different things


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

SlowTri said:


> Looking for a bit of info on the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 Boost fork. It's showing 120mm but it looks like the travel guide shows it's possible to reduce to a 100mm fork or go upto 140 with spacer changes. All the other websites / info I see shows 120-140mm adjustment only. I'd like to go 100mm for an XC bike. Anyone know which is correct?


The 120 can go up to 140. You can lower it as far as you want, but the more you lower it, the larger the negative air chamber gets. Not a huge issue, but it can lead to spring curves that are too linear for larger rider. Most don't have an issue with 4 spacers from max travel number(140 down to 100 in this case), but it's not recommended to go past 4.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

CS645 said:


> My wife had problems with harshness and diving with her 135lbs on her Mattoc expert with IRT. The air pressure was either low with slightly less harshness but too much dive or no dive but too harsch.
> 
> Converted to the pro assembly with the high flow piston and it's night and day for her. She can now ride the air pressure that is needed with much better small bump comfort and being able to look much further ahead because of absent trail vibration. She's really happy with it.


@CS645, can you share what her current settings are? What travel is the fork set to? What damper oil/wt did you put in it?

thanks


----------



## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> You can lower it as far as you want, but the more you lower it, the larger the negative air chamber gets. Not a huge issue, but it can lead to spring curves that are too linear for larger rider.


I was amazed at the difference in feel when I ran 150mm for a little bit after my typical 140mm. It felt more progressive which I liked. But the bike was designed primarily around 140mm and I liked that for the tight, slow single track we have.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from. Manitou's own recommendation is 40psi split
> 
> Dougals piston is good, so if you having harshness issues, it's a good way to give you a way to dial it out. The hot oil pink oil is not something you will notice a change with though. I'd spend the money on some supergliss instead. Any quality oil with a [email protected] of 14-15 will work fine. Motorex 2.5 or Maxima 5wt are more than good enough.


The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.

The Hot Oil Pink is for two reasons.
The first is minimal variation from below freezing to as hot as you can get it.
The second is a cool noise. It seems to amplify the sound of oil through shims. You either love hearing that or hate it. I love it.

For people who hate hearing shim noise we have the Hot Oil Green. It's much quieter, not quite as awesome for temperature range but still very, very good.

Most people are fine with a good 15 cSt oil. Especially in a fork. It's very hard to get a fork damper hot and cold is only an issue for some.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
> I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.
> 
> The Hot Oil Pink is for two reasons.
> ...


The 30-40psi split seems to be the sweet spot ( Manitou recommendation of 40 is probably a little much for some people)

I don't have anything against hot oil pink, I have it in one of my mattoc pro's. I have another with Maxima rsf ( mastadon oil) and my mattoc comp has 85/150 (stock Manitou oil). all work great. Never noticed shim noise being amplified, but but I'd be ok with it. I'll have to listen for it. The pro with your piston/ oil is currently on my wife's Juliana, easy to hop on it for a bit 😎


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

ashwinearl said:


> @CS645, can you share what her current settings are? What travel is the fork set to? What damper oil/wt did you put in it?
> 
> thanks


Just to be clear I run a Mattoc myself as well. Just that it doesn't confuse everyone.

We both run it at 160mm. When we converted her's to pro/high flow piston I also switched damper oil from Motorex 2.5wt to the corex 5cst from Dougal. Before the conversion she ran about 28psi main and after about 2psi more (keep in mind women apart from their weight put less force through the handlebars).

Regarding IRT setting's. I first started out with a 2.15 ratio but that was a bit too much. I than dropped more to 1.6 ratio based on recommendations here but that made the fork dive more and diminshed it's function too much. I think the currrent ratio is about 1.85.

Today I'll be testing my own converted Mattoc for the first time. In the garage rebound seemed a bit quick but let's see on the trail.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Today I'll be tested my own converted Mattoc for the first time. In the garage rebound seemed a bit quick but let's see on the trail.


The rebound shouldn't change with the high flow piston. So it may be worth checking the shims are sitting flat on the piston, the check shim spring shims are holding the check shim against the piston and it's all snugged up.

Unless you've gone to the Corex 5 oil. In which case it will get faster.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> The rebound shouldn't change with the high flow piston. So it may be worth checking the shims are sitting flat on the piston, the check shim spring shims are holding the check shim against the piston and it's all snugged up.
> 
> Unless you've gone to the Corex 5 oil. In which case it will get faster.


Stayed on the 2.5wt for myself. Yeah I figured it should be something like that. My first ride wasn't conclusive today. But the trails near my house are pretty short and not that rough to be sure. Will try it out in more challenging terrain first.

The improvement on the compression side is very clear though (although of course everything done in fresh slickhoney helps as well). I could up the LSC damping and the fork still felt less harsh than before with the expert configuration without high flow piston. More active/lively with less roughness yet plenty of control.


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## backinmysaddle (Jul 27, 2011)

What do people recommend as a substitute for m-prep? I read some threads that suggest many lubricants/ greases are formulate to be used to lubricate o rings and seals and anything like that should do the trick. Any suggestions?


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Slickoleum, slick honey or sram butter.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I used slickoleum or sram butter.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

<Edited >

Bike Discount DE has Mattoc Comp boost forks 50% off.

27.5+/29er $340 https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-27.5-29-120-tapered-sl-boost-801392

27.5 $291 https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/manitou-mattoc-27.5-120-tapered-sl-boost-802112


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

tdaniel93 said:


> I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.


Abs+ damper is definitely a mattoc comp.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm only getting 7 clicks on my rebound damper. 2016 Magnum Pro. What's going on?

Alsp don't really get full open on HSC. Barely an eight of a turn off position 1, rather than a full quarter. That or I'm not getting position 5


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

tdaniel93 said:


> I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.


Ah, my bad. I thought the Dorado air spring was only available in the Pro. I didn't look any further than that. Edited my original post.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> If you had play in the top-right bushing, that has been sorted at production some time ago.
> But we've still got to mop up the forks out there with an issue. It only affects the 27" boost models and not all of them.


I'm now on my 5th set of forks. Replaced 2x lowers and 2x whole fork. And the binding issue is still not solved. Currently there are already new scratch marks showing on the stantsions. 
I'm sick of this. Will see what they will do now. The last new fork I got, my local hayes dealer said he opened the fork an inspected it for particles before handing them over to me. But guess that didn't do it.
Wondering if here in europe we have different lowers or old stocks?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

lukam said:


> I'm now on my 5th set of forks. Replaced 2x lowers and 2x whole fork. And the binding issue is still not solved. Currently there are already new scratch marks showing on the stantsions.
> I'm sick of this. Will see what they will do now. The last new fork I got, my local hayes dealer said he opened the fork an inspected it for particles before handing them over to me. But guess that didn't do it.
> Wondering if here in europe we have different lowers or old stocks?


That is insane. Have you emailed Hayes in America to to tell them this? It should never get to this point.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

I have the same experience. I am on my third fork. Bushing play and serious binding. Also from Europe. Manitou in Germany is handling warranty requests via local LBS, distibuter for Hayes.

Lukam, when were your forks made? Forks that I received are all mattoc 3 boost, red, made in november 2017. I am trying to find if there is correlation between bad forks and production date. If it was one broken series, or are they scattered around.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> That is insane. Have you emailed Hayes in America to to tell them this? It should never get to this point.


Yes a month ago I emailed [email protected] explaining everithing and got no answer.
I got this fork now a year and a half and got just problems with it. First two times it was dealth with hayes EU tech center in germany and now two times here by our distributor.

I dont get it. I have a friend whoose got the same problem...
And my now 4 year old mattoc 1 is still hoing strong in my other bike.


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## lukam (Nov 5, 2014)

s-master said:


> I have the same experience. I am on my third fork. Bushing play and serious binding. Also from Europe. Manitou in Germany is handling warranty requests via local LBS, distibuter for Hayes.
> 
> Lukam, when were your forks made? Forks that I received are all mattoc 3 boost, red, made in november 2017. I am trying to find if there is correlation between bad forks and production date. If it was one broken series, or are they scattered around.


I have a boost 27,5 black. As far as I can remember my last fork had a 18 on the lowers.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

lukam said:


> I have a boost 27,5 black. As far as I can remember my last fork had a 18 on the lowers.


That is a shame, so other forks are affected to..


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

lukam said:


> Yes a month ago I emailed [email protected] explaining everithing and got no answer.
> I got this fork now a year and a half and got just problems with it. First two times it was dealth with hayes EU tech center in germany and now two times here by our distributor.
> 
> I dont get it. I have a friend whoose got the same problem...
> And my now 4 year old mattoc 1 is still hoing strong in my other bike.


I sent you a pm

This is an issue that has been solved, it shouldn't take 6 tries to fix it.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> I sent you a pm
> 
> This is an issue that has been solved, it shouldn't take 6 tries to fix it.


You said about the Mara shock, that you are looking forward to explain what is going on the piggy bag, as soon as it is released in the press.

Is there something similar coming in the mezzer fork or is it simply a slightly improved mattoc mc2 damper?
Cheers


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I've got 3 EU Mattoc's and haven't had any problems with play or binding. Mine are mostly production date 2014. Although some received updates while being in stock.


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

CS645 said:


> I've got 3 EU Mattoc's and haven't had any problems with play or binding. Mine are mostly production date 2014. Although some received updates while being in stock.


In this case, problatic mattocs are newer, boost versions. Non boost are OK, as far as I know.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

s-master said:


> In this case, problatic mattocs are newer, boost versions. Non boost are OK, as far as I know.


My CRC non Boost mattoc pro 2 had problems. Solved by Manitou in 2 weeks


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

*deleted*


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> You said about the Mara shock, that you are looking forward to explain what is going on the piggy bag, as soon as it is released in the press.
> 
> Is there something similar coming in the mezzer fork or is it simply a slightly improved mattoc mc2 damper?
> Cheers


Find out in a few days


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Find out in a few days


OK, I think I have the power :-D

But can you only say, when it will be available? 
Because I happen to be in need of a new 29er fork. Would be good to get it until June


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Mattoc Expert on sale for $335 at CRC, plus I think there is a coupon to get $20 off that. Better hurry! 27.5 with 160mm https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/manitou-mattoc-expert-forks-15mm-2017/rp-prod115311


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

bansaiman said:


> OK, I think I have the power :-D
> 
> But can you only say, when it will be available?
> Because I happen to be in need of a new 29er fork. Would be good to get it until June


I do not know the answer to that question, but recent Hayes group history would lead one to think it will be available pretty quickly after being announced.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

Looks like the Mezzer has the low offset option a lot of folks are looking for. Any idea how the travel adjustment will be performed? Same special tools as the mattoc?

https://manitoumtb.com/product/mezzer/?cat_id=23


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

argh. I screwed up the install of my new High Flow Piston. I made it all they way through to reinstalling the rebound damper back into the tube. I mangled the PTFE glide ring on the inner threads.

What did I do wrong?

I took the glide ring off the stock piston and in doing so stretched that out too. Ah, par for the course when working on stuff myself.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I see that Dougal also sells just the PTFE glide rings. Is there a source in the US?

Is there a trick for installing them that doesn't stretch them out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> argh. I screwed up the install of my new High Flow Piston. I made it all they way through to reinstalling the rebound damper back into the tube. I mangled the PTFE glide ring on the inner threads.
> 
> What did I do wrong?
> 
> ...


Best thing to do right now is cut the stretched glide-ring off with a 45 degree cut. Then trim a section out on the same 45 degrees so it goes back in and the ends touch to seal.

Best way to install them is heat and creep them on from one side around.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
> I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.


thought I'd check mine. 160mm travel 60/110psi compression all open. 77kg naked.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Was this spacer on the bottom of the rebound damper added to newer forks compared to the early models? This is taken from a 2017 I got from CRC last year. I have an older one that doesn't have it.

The older one was used so don't know if it is missing or it just never had it.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Stayed on the 2.5wt for myself. Yeah I figured it should be something like that. My first ride wasn't conclusive today. But the trails near my house are pretty short and not that rough to be sure. Will try it out in more challenging terrain first.
> 
> The improvement on the compression side is very clear though (although of course everything done in fresh slickhoney helps as well). I could up the LSC damping and the fork still felt less harsh than before with the expert configuration without high flow piston. More active/lively with less roughness yet plenty of control.


Did you figure out the issue with the rebound when you put in the new high flow piston? I just put my new high flow in. It felt very bouncy. To get a controlled frequency, I was at way lower pressure than previously.

This is at 140mm travel, I am 140lbs. This is a completely new fork compared to an older 2016 model too. So I don't know how much more supple the new one is. But I went from 31 main spring/62 IRT, 2 clicks rebound to like 25/50, and it 3 clicks and it still felt fast. Both have Motorex 2.5wt oil


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Did you figure out the issue with the rebound when you put in the new high flow piston? I just put my new high flow in. It felt very bouncy. To get a controlled frequency, I was at way lower pressure than previously.
> 
> This is at 140mm travel, I am 140lbs. This is a completely new fork compared to an older 2016 model too. So I don't know how much more supple the new one is. But I went from 31 main spring/62 IRT, 2 clicks rebound to like 25/50, and it 3 clicks and it still felt fast. Both have Motorex 2.5wt oil


Sounds like a check shim isn't sealing properly and letting oil back through.

Rebound is unchanged from stock if you've got it together properly.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

All right, more questions. (curse you Manitou for making products the encourage tinkering...)

I've got both forks open and comparing the rebound dampers to each other. The new one was feeling notchy which I chalked up to messing up the glide ring some. However, in more checking and comparing it is very notchy/sticky where the rod moves through the cap.

here is a direct link to Imgur in case the linked image isn't showing:
https://i.imgur.com/CJVDE9O.jpg









It is a significant difference to the other rebound damper from the older fork. Any suggestions to address this issue too?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The direct link is broken, so the linked image isn't showing 
Does you fork feel notchy? Or you just comparing damper shafts dry? One might be already worn in (talking about the piston seal), so lower friction, while the other is yet not, also the new one might have an oring(?) on the piston shaft to prevent semi bath oil from migrating, but I doubt that.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Other possibility is that you messed up the lower seal when reinserting whatever you disassembled (sorry, not paying attention) so it's either cut a little or twisted, and that might give you additional friction.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I uploaded the pic direct to MTBR too. Yes. One is brand new out of the box, the other is an older fork that I have ridden and got used.

The rod does have play compared to each other, so one might just not be broken in.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Is there anywhere I can get the updated air piston for my Mattoc? It seems to be letting some air to the negative chamber (every month or so it's stuck 5mm)so while I'm at it I might as well get the improved thing.
Waiting for the low friction seals, together it would make my fork the new spec, all I'd need then is an IRT, which I'm keeping an eye for already


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Is there anywhere I can get the updated air piston for my Mattoc? It seems to be letting some air to the negative chamber (every month or so it's stuck 5mm)so while I'm at it I might as well get the improved thing.
> Waiting for the low friction seals, together it would make my fork the new spec, all I'd need then is an IRT, which I'm keeping an eye for already


You may just need a new quad-ring. But here're the details for the updated piston: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-mastodon-magnum-air-piston-kit-manitou.html


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Holy crap that's expensive 
I'd rather get the IRT for. that money. 
I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

piciu256 said:


> Holy crap that's expensive
> I'd rather get the IRT for. that money.
> I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.


That price is in NZD and has NZ tax built it that international buyers don't have to pay, so actual price is quite a bit lower. I would just get a new quad ring though.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Holy crap that's expensive
> I'd rather get the IRT for. that money.
> I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.


As Mullen said that's a different currency. It's $US42. IRT is a different thing.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

The new fender seen on the Mezzer that extends front and rear of the arch... is that compatible with the existing Mattoc Boost models, and will it be available separately?


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

The fender is/will be available separately, but I'm not sure about it fitting.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

boomn said:


> The new fender seen on the Mezzer that extends front and rear of the arch... is that compatible with the existing Mattoc Boost models, and will it be available separately?


Yes and yes: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-fender-mudguard-2019-manitou.html

Not sure why I haven't got a pic up on the listing, but here it is bolted on:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BvsQjPbnoO4/

Same mudguard for Mezzer, Mattoc Boost and J-unit. Basically all the new Boost forks fit it.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

I dont know why but just changed again from coil to air spring with IRT and it feels pretty good. So surprised. Im 68kg, 40/100psi at 160mm, 25% sag with full open rebound. Have no idea why until now I couldnt dial air spring with proper initial sensitivity and bottom out resistance. This time no supergliss in lowers. Just fork oil around [email protected] Also another air piston, cuz scratched shaft and couldnt get it separately. 

Dougal, any chance that previous piston was just too tight? Anyway it was updated one. 

PS I have to find and delete all my posts about no sensivity in mattoc


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

*Putting rebound damper back together in correct order*

Is there a correct orientation for the high flow piston









one side has an indentation as shown the other doesn't. Does it matter which side goes towards the HBO cone and which side goes towards the damper cap?

Does anyone of an exploded view of the rebound damper shims, spring shims. I am worried I am not putting it back together correctly.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes there definitely is, you want the compression stroke to be the way of least resistance, aka the larger ports are facing down (closed by the check plate on rebount stroke)
You'll figure it out once you're inside- just install it like the old one was.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

But I have to ask, does the high flow piston even do anything on the pro version? I think the Expert could benefit from one, but Pro is moving so little oil in comparison, I don't see or feel why it would be needed, I'm hitting quite large obstacles and there are no signs of any sort of choking.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure. 

I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.


Is that heavy pedaling standing up? Bobbing would be dealt with LSC, which of course won't necessarily help with a root. I've come round to using more LSC and HSC to keep the fork higher at a cost of suppleness, it's more important for me to keep the bike in the right spot rather than having a super comfortable ride.

As always my riding is 90% climbing and flat to get to the parts I want to have fun on. So my setup needs to be for the 10% rather than the 90% I actually spend on the bike.

Having said that, on the Mattoc it's pretty easy to reach down and open the LSC for the boring bits to make it more compliant.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> I dont know why but just changed again from coil to air spring with IRT and it feels pretty good. So surprised. Im 68kg, 40/100psi at 160mm, 25% sag with full open rebound. Have no idea why until now I couldnt dial air spring with proper initial sensitivity and bottom out resistance. This time no supergliss in lowers. Just fork oil around [email protected] Also another air piston, cuz scratched shaft and couldnt get it separately.
> 
> Dougal, any chance that previous piston was just too tight? Anyway it was updated one.
> 
> PS I have to find and delete all my posts about no sensivity in mattoc


40/100 is pretty good. I'm at 40/80psi and that's working well. I am riding significantly faster and more aggressively than I was when I first got on these forks.

Excess friction anywhere can ruin your suspension.



ashwinearl said:


> Is there a correct orientation for the high flow piston
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Recess down (as it would be ridden). It will all make sense once you're in.



piciu256 said:


> But I have to ask, does the high flow piston even do anything on the pro version? I think the Expert could benefit from one, but Pro is moving so little oil in comparison, I don't see or feel why it would be needed, I'm hitting quite large obstacles and there are no signs of any sort of choking.


The best way to improve the Expert is to upgrade to the Pro damper. Once you have the Pro damper the high flow piston takes you to the top of the pack.

You won't notice it much on large bumps. But you will on sharp stuff at speed. It's not Pike style choking.



ashwinearl said:


> I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure.
> 
> I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.


Are you running iRT? What pressures? Lowest you should probably be is 35/55psi and on upwards from there.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

ashwinearl said:


> I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure.


That's pretty interresting, as I'm also a light rider, at 55kg (120lbs) and not only do I not find any harshness, I often add 1-2 clicks of high speed damping, depending on how rough the terrain/ how big the features are. The low speed damping lever remains pretty much untouched, I did try it on some long smooth climbs, just to see it make no difference at all, as I'm always seated in such occasions, and when sprinting standing I'm smooth enough+ my bike is reasonably slack @66° that it doesn't Bob much anyway. 
My fork is @140mm with 40psi at just under 20% sag standing with 4 IVA tokens to have at least some progression, I'd definitely benefit from IRT cause at those settings the fork doesn't really soak up any small bumps at low speed, I don't have the funds just yet. 
3 clicks of HBO works perfect, 0,5 and 1,5 meter drops to flat feel the same (apart from the latter bottoming out my shock) 
Imo this fork really does open up at higher speed and/or with larger features, for just cruising or casual riding I think that a RS with debonair would be better, but I haven't received the low friction seal yet.

You should provide more specific information, as in how much sag at how much pressure you're running, do you have low friction seals, are you an aggressive rider, what do you mean by harshness exactly, what damper settings you are using?


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## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

For those of you in the States, where are you sourcing your Mattocs? I was looking for a Mattoc Pro 29 120 (extendable to 140) and cannot find any. Only see a handful of the 27.5 version.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

aski said:


> For those of you in the States, where are you sourcing your Mattocs? I was looking for a Mattoc Pro 29 120 (extendable to 140) and cannot find any. Only see a handful of the 27.5 version.


I bought mine from Chain reaction cycles. Was pretty cheap.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

ashwinearl said:


> I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.


Do you change your LSC setting during a ride?

I have an oversimplified tuning theory for Mattoc and served me well if I change setting depending on what kind of trail I am riding. The theory is the following:

1. Main chamber for small bump sensitivity, lower the better
2. IRT ratio and LSC for mid-stroke support and body movement. Higher the ratio or more LSR damping, more support and better resistance to bob. 
3. HBO for bottom out resistance
4. HSC for the feeling on big landing. Less HSC damping uses travel faster but less harshness.

My process is the following.
1. Leave LSC, HSC fully open. LSR on the fast side such that when pushing bar down quickly, front wheel just leaves ground a little bit. Then go down a rock garden to test the main chamber. The pressure should be just low enough for the rock garden to disappear but not too low.

2. I will start with 2x ratio for IRT, with maybe 1 or 2 click more LSR damping, then go down successive hits like roots. If the hits feel harsh, I will lower the IRT pressure until it feels comfortable. This will be my typical trail setting, and maybe play the LSC/HSC a click here and there to try, but definitely on the open side.

3. Fully close LSC, fully close HBO then go try it on a jump trail. Use the HSC to dial the feeling of landing. The LSR should be slow enough that not bouncing you off bike when hitting a ramping takeoff fast. This is my flow trail setting. Again, I may open the LSC/HSC a click here and there depending on the trail I am riding.

These are all talking about going down. When climbing, I always fully close my LSC to fight the bob while standing but it is not a lockout. Fully closed LSC helps the body and bike to stay in harmony.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Are you running iRT? What pressures? Lowest you should probably be is 35/55psi and on upwards from there.


I have the IRT. Fork is set at 140mm, head angle is 68degrees, I am 140lbs. I've been around 30-32 main spring, 55-60 IRT, HSC+1 to +2, LSC +4. HBO several clicks in, varies. I am going to up to 35psi main, 64IRT.

I had been going lower in the main spring trying to tune for frequency. I don't have a good feel for the method yet, but was having the impression that the fork was returning too quickly. Last year, I was running higher 40+psi in the main spring, and I had to turn in my rebound. I was advised to go lower as the higher air was causing bucking which I needed the rebound to control.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I have the IRT. Fork is set at 140mm, head angle is 68degrees, I am 140lbs. I've been around 30-32 main spring, 55-60 IRT, HSC+1 to +2, LSC +4. HBO several clicks in, varies. I am going to up to 35psi main, 64IRT.
> 
> I had been going lower in the main spring trying to tune for frequency. I don't have a good feel for the method yet, but was having the impression that the fork was returning too quickly. Last year, I was running higher 40+psi in the main spring, and I had to turn in my rebound. I was advised to go lower as the higher air was causing bucking which I needed the rebound to control.


I tune air pressure with the rebound wide open. So if it bucks you can tell without it being masked by slow rebound.

HSC and LSC work together, you won't notice the effect of more HSC if you run LSC wide open until it's a very sharp hit. Because the LSC ports are quite large.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

What do you guys think of my creation? A plastic tube instead of 2 spacers, giving a little bit more negative chamber volume. Does it make sense? Wondering how much larger the new Mezzer negative chamber is, if we can technically upgrade our Mattocs in some way


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Hi all I've searched the thread but can't find the answer.

I've just realised I can't turn my HSC and HBO adjusters on my Mattoc Pro 2, the LSC and rebound all work fine, I've loosened the small hex bolt on top, taken the HBO adjuster off and cleaned some dirt out, but this still doesn't help.

I service the fork myself, have I done something wrong to the compression assembly?

Please help!


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Has the HBO adjuster been on the extreme end for a long time? I've had this happen on a NOS Mattoc (4 years old at time of purchase). After using a mentally uncomfortable amount of force, the HBO adjuster jumped loose and has been fine since. 
Maybe Dougal has some advice on how to loosen a stuck HBO adjuster from the inside?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

With the knobs removed, try to turn it using a corresponding sized wrench, it would be best if you knew at which extreme its locked first, but if you use some common sense- you shouldn't break anything.


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks guys I've sorted it, I just wasn't turning them hard enough lol They get pretty stiff when you don't use them for a while. Turns out I was on max HSC which explains why my fork felt weird on Sunday....


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Man these low friction seals make a huge difference, I was really sceptical when someone said they give you 3 clicks faster rebound... Well, it's totally true! Testing by hand they give 2 times less friction than the standard 2 piece seals, on the fork I used to run minus 2 licks of rebound (2 less than factory allows, I made some modifications) now I'm running one click in for a little bit faster rebound! That's +3 clicks more than before!
As for small bump compliance it's obviously improved, by a lot, but it's not really a fair comparison as the grease hasn't worn out yet, also I increased the negative chamber volume a little bit, surprisingly it did make some difference- while before @40psi I had 30mm of sag, now it jumped to 40mm, with similar bottom out resistance, I quite like that! Will probably increase the pressure and take out some IVA spacers to compensate though, which should give me better support and compliance for the gnarly stuff 
I need to get a Debonair RS to compare against again, I don't think this that sort of level of small bump compliance yet, but it should be quite close.
@edit ended up increasing the pressure by 5psi, now have exactly 30mm of sag, and using 85% of travel when pushing hard on flat ground, will adjust it down to 40 when I go ride some proper gnar, for local relatively smooth jump trails this should be perfect


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

piciu256 said:


> I increased the negative chamber volume a little bit


how did you increase negative volume?


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## Frs1661 (Jun 9, 2008)

Looking at post 4569, he used a hollow tube instead of the solid travel adjustment spacers in the negative chamber. So there is a little extra volume of the air inside the tube. Assuming the air has a way to get in and out of there. 

What happens if that tube breaks during a ride?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It wont break, the tube is there just to set the lenght at full extension while pumping up, there is very little pressure acting at it, and it's 3mm thick thermal plastic  It is 1mm larger than the diameter of the air shaft, since I didn't have a 10mm ID tube, and air can get in there no problem as the end is not cut perfectly flat (that's intentional) so there is a gap, the spacers are hollow too really, but they have more material because they are the diameter of the whole air chamber, so there is quite a bit of "not needed" material, they are so big just because you are supposed to clip them on really, since the tube is surrounding the whole shaft without cutouts, it's stronger than spacers so doesn't need as material.


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Hi folks, 

So glad I found this thread! There is such good info here. Has anyone made a summary document? 46 long pages... Whew!

Anyway, I've got a Mattoc Pro boost that I purchased online. I needed a 150mm fork for my frame so I sized it down as soon as I got it. After installing it on the bike I noticed that I could only ever get about 120 or 130mm of compression. I measured the stanchion and was concerned to find almost exactly 150mm showing. Surely the fork doesn't compress until the crown collides with the seals. I reached out to Manitou tech support to tell them something was wrong. At first, the support technician told me Manitou forks were not designed for the stanchion to touch the seals during compression. I told them there must be something wrong then. I tried to take the fork apart again and noticed that there wasn't even 150mm of compression rod between the spacers and the bumper, so it was impossible to get 150mm. I sent in pictures. The technician told me that he couldn't see anything was wrong, but if I sent the fork in they would service it. They sent it back to me telling me nothing was wrong - with about 149mm of stanchion. I've complained again and asked them what the measurement should be, but they won't answer. They've just said I can send it in again if I want. So frustrating! And such a waste of my time, especially now that I've read this thread and found that the forks really don't get the advertised travel.

Anyway, all that to say I really don't want to deal with tech support again, but I seem to have another problem: the fork isn't moving through its travel smoothly. I can put a fair amount of weight on the bars and the fork doesn't compress at all. When I add enough weight it moves suddenly down a couple of centimeters. This doesn't seem to make a difference with big hits when riding, but the small bump sensitivity is terrible! Any ideas what's going on?

Rider weight = 150 lbs
IRT = 60psi
Main = ~30psi


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jbrowning89 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> So glad I found this thread! There is such good info here. Has anyone made a summary document? 46 long pages... Whew!
> 
> ...


Did you fully extend it while the pump was connected?


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Did you fully extend it while the pump was connected?


Yeah, I've figured out now that I really need to pull while I detach the pump. So that problem is solved I think.

I'm now concerned about the un-smooth action of the fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jbrowning89 said:


> Yeah, I've figured out now that I really need to pull while I detach the pump. So that problem is solved I think.
> 
> I'm now concerned about the un-smooth action of the fork.


Take the lower legs off, grease the top bushings and seals with slickoleum. That'll keep it sliding smoothly until the oil works it's way up during riding.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

*27.5+ Fender*

Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.


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## SlowTri (Apr 10, 2012)

tdaniel93 said:


> Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.


I bought a 27.5+ a few weeks ago and it did not come with a fender.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

SlowTri said:


> I bought a 27.5+ a few weeks ago and it did not come with a fender.


Does it have the drill holes to mount one?


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## Steinello (Jul 10, 2018)

... the Mattoc 3 Pro 27.5+/29 version doesn´t come with the fender and there are no holes for a fender. I think this version isn´t a Mattoc but the Magnum. First I thought I´ve gotten an old version but Hayes (Germany) told me that´s the right version.


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## jixr (Aug 15, 2016)

yeah CRC is horrible with claiming their forks are one thing and shipping another.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tdaniel93 said:


> Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.


The only Mattoc which takes a mudguard is the 27" Boost (not plus) and they come with them. The 27 non boost, 27+ and 29+ lower leg castings all pre-date the mud-guard design.

The new forks which fit mudguards are the J-Unit Machete (20" and 24") and the new Mezzer.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm sure it's been discussed but didn't see it with a quick search. Does a 29x2.5 fit in the 27.5+ fork? One like this:
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...QBVb01d6huDGAHa8DHUmyLQeaWAmtvmBoCFT8QAvD_BwE


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> I'm sure it's been discussed but didn't see it with a quick search. Does a 29x2.5 fit in the 27.5+ fork? One like this:
> https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...QBVb01d6huDGAHa8DHUmyLQeaWAmtvmBoCFT8QAvD_BwE


Firstly none of the specs in that listing make sense. The photo is the non-boost 27" Mattoc. Not a 27+. 27+ was not made in red unless it was an OEM order. The listed offset, travel and axle-crown match the non-boost forks.

Officially you're allowed 742mm and 87mm width. Brace clearance is 13mm.
That gives you a theoretical 2.35" tyre height.

Measure and see. In larger tyre sizes there is a lot of BS between what's printed on the sidewall and how they measure out. There are also plenty of people running tyres bigger than Manitou's recommendations in other forks with no issues.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.


There was only one 27+ fork (well 2 if you count comp and pro versions). 48mm offset and 742mm OD (29.2").

It's worth measuring tyre OD.


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.


Not sure of others experience with CRC but generally speaking they're pretty incompetent so buyer beware if you go through them. I ordered a pro back in March from them that turned out to be a comp, doesn't matter though because they sent me carbon road wheels instead of a fork on accident and it took them over a month to process my return after shipping it back. I just bought a 27.5+ pro from them earlier in the week and when it arrived yesterday of course it's a 120mm 27.5 boost comp model. So now I get to go back through the same process of returning the wrong item to them.


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## Energetik (Feb 7, 2008)

Good luck guys. Lots of great info. I ended up getting a smoking deal on a 2016 fox 34 factory so I'm out. Manitou makes great products and I'm sure you'll all do well with them. Peace.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

I got lucky with my Pro 2 from CRC, but I was also eyeballing that Mattoc Pro Plus. Didn't know about the colors but looked on Manitou's site, and no 44mm offset 27.5+/29 fork. Only 48mm offset. So yeah they're gonna screw you.

Ripley v4 is a 44mm offset design. Will a 48mm offset fork make that much of a difference? I'd rather stick with Mattoc vs Pike/Fox.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Everyone has their own opinion, but for me, going from 51mm offset to 42mm created a better weight distribution balance. I don’t have to think about leaning forward and weighting the front wheel as much. It’s really helpful in those moments when you’re riding fast and a little off balance. I’m the type of rider that mostly doesn’t crash but when I do it’s a nasty low side from loosing the front wheel. I’ve broken both my hands multiple times... seems like the Mezzer is a better option if you want a short offset 29r. But I clearly don’t have a thorough understanding of the Mattoc options.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

I lost the air cap for the mattoc. It's just a schrader cap right? I can just get a cheapo tire cap and put it on?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> I lost the air cap for the mattoc. It's just a schrader cap right? I can just get a cheapo tire cap and put it on?


Bottom or top?

Both are schrader, but the bottom you'll need one with a big enough gasket that it doesn't depress the plunger rod in the middle.

Mattoc offset is 41mm for the 26" non-boost, 44mm for all 27" (boost and non boost), 48mm for 27+ and 51mm for 29+.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Bottom. Damnit I have to buy the full kit don't I.

By gasket do you mean it's deep enough so when I tighten it, the plunger rod isn't depressed?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> Bottom. Damnit I have to buy the full kit don't I.
> 
> By gasket do you mean it's deep enough so when I tighten it, the plunger rod isn't depressed?


Yes and yes: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/magnum-pro-knob-air-cap-kit-manitou.html


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Ok then, I guess I'm going to have to comb the garage looking for it.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

jdang307 said:


> I got lucky with my Pro 2 from CRC, but I was also eyeballing that Mattoc Pro Plus. Didn't know about the colors but looked on Manitou's site, and no 44mm offset 27.5+/29 fork. Only 48mm offset. So yeah they're gonna screw you.
> 
> Ripley v4 is a 44mm offset design. Will a 48mm offset fork make that much of a difference? I'd rather stick with Mattoc vs Pike/Fox.


I can't feel differences between a pike 51 mm and a 46 mm.
I can feel differences between a good and a bad fork.


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

jdang307 said:


> Ok then, I guess I'm going to have to comb the garage looking for it.


Spaceballs!


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

So I took a punt on a wiggle Mattoc pro for my Ragley mmmbop hardtail build. After the first couple of hundred meters of riding i was so stoked with how it performed compared to my MRP Ribbon coil on my Jekyll. It quickly developed a knock on my first ride and oil coming past the wiper seal on the damper side. I was aware issues with forks from wiggle/CRC and being in NZ I knew Dougal should be able to sort things out if they went bad.

Has anyone had success with not sending the forks back to wiggle/crc and sending straight to a local agent a.k.a shockcraft?

Why do Manitou continue to let these forks get sold with a known problem? I knew what I was getting into and I don't mind going through the faff to sought it out but for a casual consumer this would turn people off the brand I would have thought?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lachman said:


> So I took a punt on a wiggle Mattoc pro for my Ragley mmmbop hardtail build. After the first couple of hundred meters of riding i was so stoked with how it performed compared to my MRP Ribbon coil on my Jekyll. It quickly developed a knock on my first ride and oil coming past the wiper seal on the damper side. I was aware issues with forks from wiggle/CRC and being in NZ I knew Dougal should be able to sort things out if they went bad.
> 
> Has anyone had success with not sending the forks back to wiggle/crc and sending straight to a local agent a.k.a shockcraft?
> 
> Why do Manitou continue to let these forks get sold with a known problem? I knew what I was getting into and I don't mind going through the faff to sought it out but for a casual consumer this would turn people off the brand I would have thought?


I almost wonder if some of these places know they have bad forks. For example, Wiggle has a 120mmm 27.5" Manitou Mattoc Pro BOOST for $192. But the Mattoc 100mm forks are $100 more.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Vespasianus said:


> I almost wonder if some of these places know they have bad forks. For example, Wiggle has a 120mmm 27.5" Manitou Mattoc Pro BOOST for $192. But the Mattoc 100mm forks are $100 more.


The forks you mention are a COMP and not actually a PRO model. Wiggle should be well aware of the incorrect information, however the listing keeps showing back up listing the fork as a PRO when it is unquestionably a COMP model.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

GuitsBoy said:


> The forks you mention are a COMP and not actually a PRO model. Wiggle should be well aware of the incorrect information, however the listing keeps showing back up listing the fork as a PRO when it is unquestionably a COMP model.


Ah, that makes sense. I also noticed that the fork for $192 is listed as only a 120 fork but the one for 292 is listed at a 140 fork (but sold at 100mm).


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

GuitsBoy said:


> The forks you mention are a COMP and not actually a PRO model. Wiggle should be well aware of the incorrect information, however the listing keeps showing back up listing the fork as a PRO when it is unquestionably a COMP model.


When I bought my 27.5+ fork and they sent me the wrong one they sent me that same comp model. Except they had it listed as a $520 Pro.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Can anyone take a picture of the shims in order of assembly for the rebound damper? I am specifically looking for the order of shims above and below the blue valve. The two that are just on either side of the blue valve are not the same size.

One is larger OD which is big enough to cover the feed thru holes on the valve. The other shim is slightly smaller. 

I am assuming that the larger shim goes directly on top of the blue valve. I didn't pay attention or take pictures when taking it apart and am not sure it is going back in the correct order.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Can anyone take a picture of the shims in order of assembly for the rebound damper? I am specifically looking for the order of shims above and below the blue valve. The two that are just on either side of the blue valve are not the same size.
> 
> One is larger OD which is big enough to cover the feed thru holes on the valve. The other shim is slightly smaller.
> 
> I am assuming that the larger shim goes directly on top of the blue valve. I didn't pay attention or take pictures when taking it apart and am not sure it is going back in the correct order.


I don't have pics, but rebound has two shims the same size on the piston, then a clamp, then the HBO cone. They are all 6mm ID.

Check shim underneath has a bigger ID (8mm) to fit over the stepped mount.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

lachman said:


> So I took a punt on a wiggle Mattoc pro for my Ragley mmmbop hardtail build. After the first couple of hundred meters of riding i was so stoked with how it performed compared to my MRP Ribbon coil on my Jekyll. It quickly developed a knock on my first ride and oil coming past the wiper seal on the damper side. I was aware issues with forks from wiggle/CRC and being in NZ I knew Dougal should be able to sort things out if they went bad.
> 
> Has anyone had success with not sending the forks back to wiggle/crc and sending straight to a local agent a.k.a shockcraft?
> 
> Why do Manitou continue to let these forks get sold with a known problem? I knew what I was getting into and I don't mind going through the faff to sought it out but for a casual consumer this would turn people off the brand I would have thought?


Yes we handle local warranty for the overseas box shippers. Our hard work and knowledge helps them avoid responsibility and improves their margins.

I have no idea what is going on with your fork and won't until we get it apart. Doesn't sound like any known problem.


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Take the lower legs off, grease the top bushings and seals with slickoleum. That'll keep it sliding smoothly until the oil works it's way up during riding.


I got the legs off and put a bunch of slickoleum on the bushings and seals. It's definitely better, but still not smooth. If I lean my weight over the fork it now compresses the first 10mm or so with less force than it needed before, but it then compresses in a stop-start-stop-start fashion.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jbrowning89 said:


> I got the legs off and put a bunch of slickoleum on the bushings and seals. It's definitely better, but still not smooth. If I lean my weight over the fork it now compresses the first 10mm or so with less force than it needed before, but it then compresses in a stop-start-stop-start fashion.


You may have tight bushings.

But just to check. If you've got the wheel out of the fork, is the axle undone? Tightening up the axle with no wheel will pull the legs in and make them bind.


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Dougal said:


> You may have tight bushings.
> 
> But just to check. If you've got the wheel out of the fork, is the axle undone? Tightening up the axle with no wheel will pull the legs in and make them bind.


I'm getting that shuddering movement with the wheel on and the axle appropriately torqued. Should remove the wheel and flip the bike over try compressing without the axle tightened?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jbrowning89 said:


> I'm getting that shuddering movement with the wheel on and the axle appropriately torqued. Should remove the wheel and flip the bike over try compressing without the axle tightened?


If the wheel sits in without flexing the legs in or out then that can be ignored.

I have come across people trying to put boost wheels into non-boost forks before! :eekster:


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Dougal said:


> If the wheel sits in without flexing the legs in or out then that can be ignored.
> 
> I have come across people trying to put boost wheels into non-boost forks before! :eekster:


Oh gee! Yeah, boost fork, boost wheels, they slide right in.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I don't have pics, but rebound has two shims the same size on the piston, then a clamp, then the HBO cone. They are all 6mm ID.
> 
> Check shim underneath has a bigger ID (8mm) to fit over the stepped mount.


Below is how I currently have it ordered (the second from the bottom are two spring shims stuck together). Mine had two clamp shims on top? The problem I am having is that pogo'ing feeling where the rebound feels faster than it should. Based on past threads, this is an indication that the assembly isn't put back together correctly. This is the new high-flow piston with split PTFE ring because I mangled it initially.

It was feeling ok one day then started feeling bouncy the next. So am wondering if something came loose.

Is there guidance on the torque to use in tightening the HBO cone?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Below is how I currently have it ordered (the second from the bottom is the spring shim). The problem I am having is that pogo'ing feeling where the rebound feels faster than it should. Based on past threads, this is an indication that the assembly isn't put back together correctly. This is the new high-flow piston with split PTFE ring because I mangled it initially.
> 
> Is there guidance on the torque to use in tightening the HBO cone?


That looks right. Check the spring shims have enough bend in them to keep the check shim against the piston. If it doesn't then bend them some more.

You will have a small amount more flow around with the split piston band. But it should be minor.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Actually, it doesn't look properly, shim stack is good I believe, 2 rebound shims and 2 check plate shims backed by 2 spring shims with a backing plate. The piston is upside down though, which gives more leverage to open the shim stack which gives less damping.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Actually, it doesn't look properly, shim stack is good I believe, 2 rebound shims and 2 check plate shims backed by 2 spring shims with a backing plate. The piston is upside down though, which gives more leverage to open the shim stack which gives less damping.


The piston is up the right way and there is one check shim and one support shim for the spring shims to rest on.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Doesn't look like it, the larger ports are installed to work on the rebound shim stack, not let oil through on the compression stroke, like it should have been.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Doesn't look like it, the larger ports are installed to work on the rebound shim stack, not let oil through on the compression stroke, like it should have been.


Which way do you think is up? That's the HBO cone at the top of the picture. Not the shaft.
Orientation is correct as shown.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Oh, I thought that's the shaft. My bad. Then the only reasonable explanation to the problem is that the assembly made itself a bit undone, threadlocker is advised to avoid such problems, there was someone whose compression assembly got undone and destroyed the damper internals.


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## jbrowning89 (May 11, 2019)

Dougal said:


> If the wheel sits in without flexing the legs in or out then that can be ignored.
> 
> I have come across people trying to put boost wheels into non-boost forks before! :eekster:


Anything else I should try before sending it in for service again?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

For me your issue sounds more like an air spring problem, you can confirm by disassembling the fork and checking for stiction one leg at a time, if one side is a lot harder to move than the other- you have a tight bushings issue, they might also both be very tight, either way moving the bushings without the air spring should tell you what is the problem.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> That looks right. Check the spring shims have enough bend in them to keep the check shim against the piston. If it doesn't then bend them some more.
> 
> You will have a small amount more flow around with the split piston band. But it should be minor.


So I bent the spring shims some more. Now I am thinking that I didn't need to or at least not as much as I did. After I put it back together, I can definitely feel a change in compression but not much change in the rebound.

There is more compression damping, which seems to make sense. If the spring shims are applying more force to the check shim, won't it take more force to push the check shim down under compression?

I haven't ridden it offroad yet, and will go through resetting air pressure maybe go down in air.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I made a shareable Google Sheets with my Mattoc settings. I am always looking through this thread for other riders who are close to my weight/location/ride style to see what their settings are.

My hope is that others will enter their settings so there will be a growing database that can help riders find a starting point or try something new. I've tried to add as columns for as parameters that are important to know, such as weight, ride style, travel, hop ups like high flow valve, new seals, semi-bath, damper oil...

Feel free to modify it or add more parameters.

Manitou Mattoc Settings Database


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I added my settings/ thoughts, I think you run quite a bit of rebound damping, that might cause it to pack down a bit and thus feel a bit harsher than it needs to be, mine is set up so it works well in all conditions.
ps. you may edit the sheet to make it more... tidy, I cannot format the thing on my phone.


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## kartracer (Apr 10, 2015)

Have any of you owned/ridden both a Mattoc Pro with IRT and a DVO Diamond or Sapphire? I have a DVO Sapphire on my current bike (that I'll be selling) and am deciding between another Sapphire 34 or a Mattoc Pro for my new bike. 

Specifically I'm really interested in how the Mattoc with IRT compares in small bump sensitivity/suppleness. The thing I really like most about the DVO is the OTT (adjustable coil negative spring). The initial suppleness and small bump sensitivity is so darn good. But the HSC is too firm for my riding style and the trails/terrain that I ride. Everything I've read about the Mattoc (including this entire thread) has me wanting to try one but only if small bump sensitivity/suppleness can compare with the DVO OTT.

Thanks for any input and comparisons you can provide.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I haven't ridden a mattoc with IRT, I have one with IVA, and the DVO Saphire just plain sucks in comparison, in terms of small bump compliance. The air spring design is just bad, it's coil negative but only one option of stiffness, that's probably the main reason, it works a worse than my Mattoc did with stock high friction seals with no service, with low friction seals there is no comparison at all. The damper is nice though, same feeling of control in the gnar as with mattoc, just no HBO.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Damn! My small bump has suddenly got worse. It feels like my negative spring went wonky or something. I have a non boost gold stanchioned expert. On choppy washboards its significantly worse than it was when I got it. Big hit stuff is still excellent, but I want it working like it was.

Theres an updated piston to take grease, right? Mine definitely had oil. Is there any other part update or seal update I need to be aware of?


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

kartracer said:


> Have any of you owned/ridden both a Mattoc Pro with IRT and a DVO Diamond or Sapphire? I have a DVO Sapphire on my current bike (that I'll be selling) and am deciding between another Sapphire 34 or a Mattoc Pro for my new bike.
> 
> Specifically I'm really interested in how the Mattoc with IRT compares in small bump sensitivity/suppleness. The thing I really like most about the DVO is the OTT (adjustable coil negative spring). The initial suppleness and small bump sensitivity is so darn good. But the HSC is too firm for my riding style and the trails/terrain that I ride. Everything I've read about the Mattoc (including this entire thread) has me wanting to try one but only if small bump sensitivity/suppleness can compare with the DVO OTT.
> 
> Thanks for any input and comparisons you can provide.


I have a mattoc pro with IRT and a DVO diamond Boost, the mattoc is a better fork in almost every aspect.
The diamond has a really nice damper, but the air spring is very linear and can't be tuned, you can just add oil.

I had luck with formula neopos on the diamond, now is working very good. I have also softened the compression shim stack.
I still find the mattoc a better fork, but i love the diamond as well.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> Damn! My small bump has suddenly got worse. It feels like my negative spring went wonky or something. I have a non boost gold stanchioned expert. On choppy washboards its significantly worse than it was when I got it. Big hit stuff is still excellent, but I want it working like it was.
> 
> Theres an updated piston to take grease, right? Mine definitely had oil. Is there any other part update or seal update I need to be aware of?


Look up the part number on your seals. The new upgraded low friction seals are part #
RXWT000255

Older seals had part number IVXWT000022

Supergliss semi bath oil is nice too.


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## kartracer (Apr 10, 2015)

davideb87 said:


> I have a mattoc pro with IRT and a DVO diamond Boost, the mattoc is a better fork in almost every aspect.
> The diamond has a really nice damper, but the air spring is very linear and can't be tuned, you can just add oil.
> I had luck with formula neopos on the diamond, now is working very good. I have also softened the compression shim stack.
> I still find the mattoc a better fork, but i love the diamond as well.





piciu256 said:


> I haven't ridden a mattoc with IRT, I have one with IVA, and the DVO Saphire just plain sucks in comparison, in terms of small bump compliance. The air spring design is just bad, it's coil negative but only one option of stiffness, that's probably the main reason, it works a worse than my Mattoc did with stock high friction seals with no service, with low friction seals there is no comparison at all. The damper is nice though, same feeling of control in the gnar as with mattoc, just no HBO.


Thanks guys. It's looking like a Mattoc Pro for the new bike.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Well I've had the first proper prolonged rough decents on my Mattoc converted from expert to pro with high flow piston (I still have to look into the reduced rebound damping, had no time to get it completly open up again). For fairness I have to add that my front tyre simultaneously switched from a Hellcat ATC to a Hellcat AEC (increasing unsprung weight and damping on the tyre).

What I can say is that the difference is night and day. A large part will definitely be the tyre, but the way rocks, roots and brake bumps now get irrelevant, compared to previously shaking me violently all the way down, let's me focus on the lines in stead of tip toeing across obstacle and adds a lot to the flow.

Will look into the too fast rebound, but with enough weight on the bars it wasn't a big issues.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Well I've had the first proper prolonged rough decents on my Mattoc converted from expert to pro with high flow piston (I still have to look into the reduced rebound damping, had no time to get it completly open up again). For fairness I have to add that my front tyre simultaneously switched from a Hellcat ATC to a Hellcat AEC (increasing unsprung weight and damping on the tyre).
> 
> What I can say is that the difference is night and day. A large part will definitely be the tyre, but the way rocks, roots and brake bumps now get irrelevant, compared to previously shaking me violently all the way down, let's me focus on the lines in stead of tip toeing across obstacle and adds a lot to the flow.
> 
> Will look into the too fast rebound, but with enough weight on the bars it wasn't a big issues.


Amazing isn't it!


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Will look into the too fast rebound, but with enough weight on the bars it wasn't a big issues.


You are the third person, including me, to mention change in rebound after putting in the new piston. I took mine apart again and 'think' I have it back. In the garage, the rebound feels more normal.

I think putting that rebound assembly together carefully ensuring that the there is no grit on the check shims and that everything is square is important.

Let us know what you find out on your rebound.

I agree, the concept of the high flow valve is great. For me the important benefit is the ability to run high compression for all the grinding pedaling I do and still have some small bump performance on the many roots.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Amazing isn't it!


Yup, very much worth it. Thanks for giving us the option! 

Small pump sensitivity also feels more balanced now with the McLeod on the back.



ashwinearl said:


> You are the third person, including me, to mention change in rebound after putting in the new piston. I took mine apart again and 'think' I have it back. In the garage, the rebound feels more normal.
> 
> I think putting that rebound assembly together carefully ensuring that the there is no grit on the check shims and that everything is square is important.
> 
> ...


Well I posted about it earlier, just hadn't much time to look into it. Agree on being able to close compression damping.

I did convert my wife's pro to the high flow piston weeks before and that doesn't have an issue. What I can say is that my wife's Mattoc does make oil flow sounds on rebound, while mine doesn't make any sound at all on rebound. So yeah have to open it up sooner or later. I'll give an update once done.

The improvement in performance is so great though, that even with the rebound issue, it's totally worth it. Can't wait to see how it feels when I reassemble it and get the rebound in order. The ability to carry so much more speed through the rough stuff is quite addictive!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> You are the third person, including me, to mention change in rebound after putting in the new piston. I took mine apart again and 'think' I have it back. In the garage, the rebound feels more normal.
> 
> I think putting that rebound assembly together carefully ensuring that the there is no grit on the check shims and that everything is square is important.
> 
> ...


I'd love to find out what is going wrong on reassembly so we can get some instructions to avoid it.

Haven't had any rebound issues with the ones we've done in house. I've lost count how many as they're done exchange so no obvious stock reduction.


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## BikesandWind (Aug 31, 2017)

*Wiggle Mattoc*

Hi all, been reading this forum for some time. Never posted. Used to have a Mattoc on my old bike and been missing it. So couldn't resist a Wiggle bargain when I saw one to upgrade my hardtail. Read plenty of warnings about CRC/Wiggle Mattocs, but at $285 it was worth the risk. So the fork arrived today and I'm not really sure what the model is. Its definitely 27.5 (not + as per the ad) and boost. Otherwise its exactly as per the image. So what model have I ended up with, because its not a "pro" as stated in the questions. Also anyone know if it can be upped to 140mm?

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/manitou-mattoc-forks-boost/

Forgot to add, it came with the mudguard, so I assume is newer model

Cheers


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

BikesandWind said:


> So what model have I ended up with, because its not a "pro" as stated in the questions. Also anyone know if it can be upped to 140mm?
> 
> https://www.wiggle.co.uk/manitou-mattoc-forks-boost/
> 
> Cheers


Its a 27.5 boost Magnum Comp. Yes, it can easily go to 140 by removing spacers. I believe it will go to 170 if you need it and check clearances.


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## BikesandWind (Aug 31, 2017)

Thanks. Doesn't seem like a plus fork but guessing you know your stuff. Any idea what the actual specs/adjusters are? 
Is it the same as a Mattoc comp?
Whats any ones thoughts on this versus an older (2017 i think) minute pro fork.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

BikesandWind said:


> Thanks. Doesn't seem like a plus fork but guessing you know your stuff. Any idea what the actual specs/adjusters are?
> Is it the same as a Mattoc comp?
> Whats any ones thoughts on this versus an older (2017 i think) minute pro fork.


Its not a plus fork, but it is 110 boost spacing. That said, I am currently running a 2.8 nobby nic on i45 rims, but it just barely makes it.

As for the specs, I believe its identical to the current model magnum comp boost listed on manitous website. ABS+ damper and non-adjustable HBO if I recall. Seems a solid fork for the money. The biggest things you give up vs the pro is the weigh savings, IRT and HSC. But for the most part, they ride similarly from what most people say. I have a magnum pro and a mattoc comp, but theyre set up very differently on very different bikes, so its hard for me to say how they compare. I havent ridden a minute pro, so I couldnt say one way or another about that either.


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## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Wiggle and CRC are really taking the piss with these product descriptions though. This is some pretty blatant false advertising.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Even one of the staff answered a question about was it a pro or not, they confirmed it was even though the only review said it most certainly wasn't, nor was it boost. I wish it was a 29 and the Pro, cheaper than servicing and my Auron is probably due.


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## davideb87 (Dec 13, 2017)

ashwinearl said:


> You are the third person, including me, to mention change in rebound after putting in the new piston. I took mine apart again and 'think' I have it back. In the garage, the rebound feels more normal.
> 
> I think putting that rebound assembly together carefully ensuring that the there is no grit on the check shims and that everything is square is important.
> 
> ...


I have faster rebound as well, with the high flow piston.
I checked the installation twice because Dougal said it should not affect rebound Speed, i did find a small debris but it wasn't the cause because the rebound is the same.
I used it for three months withouth problems, just added 3 click of rebound and it's good.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

kendunn said:


> Even one of the staff answered a question about was it a pro or not, they confirmed it was even though the only review said it most certainly wasn't, nor was it boost. I wish it was a 29 and the Pro, cheaper than servicing and my Auron is probably due.


It's definitely boost. It is not plus. Boost and plus are not the same thing, though commonly confused. All plus is boost spacing, but not all boost forks will fit a plus tire.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

GuitsBoy said:


> It's definitely boost. It is not plus. Boost and plus are not the same thing, though commonly confused. All plus is boost spacing, but not all boost forks will fit a plus tire.


Yeah, sorry, I meant to say plus, one of the staff did respond to someones question a month ago saying "We can confirm these are 27.5+ forks". Clear as mud, huh? I got into the same thing with them on a crank, confirmed it was one thing, the description said it was that, it wasn't even close.


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

My new Mattoc Pro rebound is just spinning so I removed the lowers and the rebound shaft to see what was going on. The head of the rebound shaft head came off along with all of the shim stack washers. I have no idea on the order to put it back together correctly, so I could use some help from someone that has has a similar experience or has taken the shim stack apart to modify the tune. Washers are listed ODxIDxTH, thanks for any help in advance. Should I call Hayes?

12.0mm x 8.0mm x .15mm wavy washers, there are two of these
12.0mm x 6.0mm x 1.0mm
13.0mm x 8.0mm x .20mm
11.0mm x 8.0mm x .50mm
9.0mm x 6.0mm x .25mm
13.0mm x 6.0mm x .10mm there are two of these

EDIT - last minute, but which side is up on the blue piston? Is it the two port or four port facing up?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Look up the part number on your seals. The new upgraded low friction seals are part #
> RXWT000255
> 
> Older seals had part number IVXWT000022
> ...


Thanks, I got those coming in the mail... but there isnt an updated air piston seal or something like that? Maybe im mixing up models, but I could have sworn I read something.


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

BikesandWind said:


> Hi all, been reading this forum for some time. Never posted. Used to have a Mattoc on my old bike and been missing it. So couldn't resist a Wiggle bargain when I saw one to upgrade my hardtail. Read plenty of warnings about CRC/Wiggle Mattocs, but at $285 it was worth the risk. So the fork arrived today and I'm not really sure what the model is. Its definitely 27.5 (not + as per the ad) and boost. Otherwise its exactly as per the image. So what model have I ended up with, because its not a "pro" as stated in the questions. Also anyone know if it can be upped to 140mm?
> 
> https://www.wiggle.co.uk/manitou-mattoc-forks-boost/
> 
> ...


What's written on the damper adjuster, mc2/abs? What's on the air spring top cap?


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Update into the tear-down, my 27.5 Mattoc Pro 160mm was actually set 150mm, and the rebound assembly had the 26" assembly, not the 27.5". QC seems to be lacking as of late, but glad they included the kit for the correct length head. They also show that there should be a bottom spacer on the damper, which was not installed at the factory either. I think I figured out the order of the shims for the blue piston though, and have the assembly back together. I called Hayes, just waiting on a return call before I put the fork all back together.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Below is an exploded view of mine when I upgraded a 26 for to 27.5. The blue piston facing up (goes towards the bottom out).


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

s0ul_chicken said:


> QC seems to be lacking as of late


Old habits die hard?


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Aresab said:


> Below is an exploded view of mine when I upgraded a 26 for to 27.5. The blue piston facing up (goes towards the bottom out).


Thank you! Eric from Hayes called me back yesterday, said he would get with engineering and send me an exploded view of the rebound assembly - hurry up and wait... By the looks of your picture, I have the order correct, so it looks like I will be taking a ride sometime this morning to test it out. Thanks again!



PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Old habits die hard?


My third Manitou, and the only one that has been giving me any kind of trouble.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

s0ul_chicken said:


> Thank you! Eric from Hayes called me back yesterday, said he would get with engineering and send me an exploded view of the rebound assembly - hurry up and wait... By the looks of your picture, I have the order correct, so it looks like I will be taking a ride sometime this morning to test it out. Thanks again!


Eric's a good guy but a little slow to respond sometimes, they all seem to be customer focused at Manitou. I was having issues after the conversion 26==>27.5 and I undid it all and did it all again, I think the torque was my biggest issue as all good when not ham fisting it!


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I've opened up my Mattoc and I think I know what I did wrong with the assembly after installing the high flow piston. What I think happened was that the 8mm ID check shim was not on the 8mm shaft but actually on the 6mm shaft, jammed between the 8mm part of the shaft and the piston and thus off center and not working as intended.

So Dougal if the above is correct, the instructions for installing the high flow piston for retards like me would be to make sure the check shim is actually on the 8mm shaft and not jammed between the piston and the 8mm shaft before tightening up the piston assembly.

I'll install it properly and confirm if my rebound is back to normal.

Click on the image for a better quality version.







EDIT: I've now reassembled the fork and as expected I can confirm the rebound is now working as it should.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

For reference, this is my shim order:


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## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Getting tired of harshness of my Rhythm 34 so I’m looking for a used Magnum Pro 120 27+/29. It will need to go to 140, I have the sockets so how can I extend without spending 50+ on the Mattoc tool kit for the spline tool? Also would need an IRT kit but out of stock everywhere online, any leads?


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Heist30 said:


> Getting tired of harshness of my Rhythm 34 so I'm looking for a used Magnum Pro 120 27+/29. It will need to go to 140, I have the sockets so how can I extend without spending 50+ on the Mattoc tool kit for the spline tool? Also would need an IRT kit but out of stock everywhere online, any leads?


A park Cassette tool has enough depth to clear on a mattoc Comp/Pro.


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## mmarkey (Apr 26, 2019)

s0ul_chicken said:


> Update into the tear-down, my 27.5 Mattoc Pro 160mm was actually set 150mm, and the rebound assembly had the 26" assembly, not the 27.5". QC seems to be lacking as of late, but glad they included the kit for the correct length head. They also show that there should be a bottom spacer on the damper, which was not installed at the factory either. I think I figured out the order of the shims for the blue piston though, and have the assembly back together. I called Hayes, just waiting on a return call before I put the fork all back together.


This makes me want to open mine up. Been riding it for about a month but never seem to get full travel. How do you tell between the 26" assembly and 27.5" assembly?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Position of the spacers and length of the HBO cone. Lookup the schematics on Google. The spacers prevents the fork from bottoming and hitting the larger wheel and the longer HBO cone ensures the proper functioning of the HBO mechanism with the reduced stroke I believe.

Edit: the whole process and differences in configuration are explained on
 YouTube


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The 26/27" shaft differences were only for the non-boost Mattocs. The Boost versions all use the same configuration as the 26". Which is shorter HBO cone and no bottom spacers.

I ended up with a used Boost Mattoc which had the longer HBO cone fitted by someone else. Made for quite the bang at full bottom-out!


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## mmarkey (Apr 26, 2019)

Mine is a non-boost version so thanks for the heads up. Any thoughts on what might be causing it to not use the full travel? It also lacks a linear feel and seems to kinda kick back on fast bumps rather than making it feel smooth.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mmarkey said:


> Mine is a non-boost version so thanks for the heads up. Any thoughts on what might be causing it to not use the full travel? It also lacks a linear feel and seems to kinda kick back on fast bumps rather than making it feel smooth.


Is your negative air equalising? Way to test is to hook on a pump and see if you can cycle the fork through full travel.
If you cannot either the air rod isn't set (or pump isn't playing the game) which means it won't move without forcing against the spring or the damper is overfilled which prevents full travel.


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## bansaiman (Feb 7, 2014)

Heist30 said:


> Getting tired of harshness of my Rhythm 34 so I'm looking for a used Magnum Pro 120 27+/29. It will need to go to 140, I have the sockets so how can I extend without spending 50+ on the Mattoc tool kit for the spline tool? Also would need an IRT kit but out of stock everywhere online, any leads?


Here already comes with irt

https://bikemarkt.mtb-news.de/article/1263415-manitou-magnum-pro-27-5-29-150mm-mit-irt-wie-mattoc2

You only need a cassette tool with hole in the middle as offered by Shimano and a little, I think 4mm Allen key


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## gillyske (Jun 20, 2019)

Hi guys, need a little help. My mattoc pro2 (its the one with IVA installed, came on my Vitus Sommet) has developed an issue where the dampener has stopped working. you can turn the dial for LSC, HSC etc but nothing changes. The only thing that works is rebound. Anyone have any idea what could be going on?


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## mmarkey (Apr 26, 2019)

I'm getting a similar issue and have had mine for about a month now. E-mailed Hayes/Manitou but haven't heard back yet. Also, my shock cycles through it's travel no problem with the pump on it but bottoms out with about 2cm of travel remaining. Pretty bummed since I bought the thing brand new. Hoping Hayes is willing to help in some fashion.



gillyske said:


> Hi guys, need a little help. My mattoc pro2 (its the one with IVA installed, came on my Vitus Sommet) has developed an issue where the dampener has stopped working. you can turn the dial for LSC, HSC etc but nothing changes. The only thing that works is rebound. Anyone have any idea what could be going on?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

EDIT: Nevermind fix.

Dumb question here: my kid has the new Manitou J-unit which is just a scaled down machete with ABS+ damper and Expert Spring. I aired the fork down all the way and it sucked down all its travel. Apparently the chambers equalize with the pump on but I did compress it with the pump on and now I can't reset it back to full travel. I'm sure there is some method of doing this but I can't for the life of me find it or figure it out. 

I'll leave this for posterity sake. My shock pump was full functional and worked, BUT the equalization did NOT happen. I simply had to screw on my shock pump even further and then everything snapped into place and worked great.


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

mmarkey said:


> I'm getting a similar issue and have had mine for about a month now. E-mailed Hayes/Manitou but haven't heard back yet. Also, my shock cycles through it's travel no problem with the pump on it but bottoms out with about 2cm of travel remaining. Pretty bummed since I bought the thing brand new. Hoping Hayes is willing to help in some fashion.


Depends on how handy you are. You may have to send the forks to Hayes or a qualified servicer.

If you have the tools and interest, I would check the damper oil level. Full service video shown here:





Regarding the fork bottoming out with 2mm still showing on the stanchion, that's expected and normal.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Help please. I am at loose fest XL, it should be great but i only get 106 mm of travel out of my 160mm travel. Bummer. Any help, fix...
If i put shock pump on, same result. Is a hydtaulic problem i think. Oil level in damper should be ok. Serviced it myself.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd tripple check if I were you, as it sure hell sounds like too much oil


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

I will check. I haven't opened the damper side before i noticed this problem. Any way, i'll have to strip the fork. Don't know of i'll be able to fix this. I hate this.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

thova said:


> Help please. I am at loose fest XL, it should be great but i only get 106 mm of travel out of my 160mm travel.


Ive been guilty of forgetting to pull the fork down after changing pressure or doing work to the fork. Hate to bring up the obvious, but you did pull the lowers down to extend the fork, right? What about if you drop the psi down to 0, do you get full range of motion then? If not, then my first guess is too much oil as well.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thova said:


> Help please. I am at loose fest XL, it should be great but i only get 106 mm of travel out of my 160mm travel. Bummer. Any help, fix...
> If i put shock pump on, same result. Is a hydtaulic problem i think. Oil level in damper should be ok. Serviced it myself.


Pull the lower legs and check if you can push the damper shaft in all the way by hand.

If you can't then the oil level is too high. Riding with the oil level too high can damage the damper. Too low just makes it slurpy.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Thank you guys. I'll check and pull lowers. Just to be 100% sure, what is oil level for first gen expert matto?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thova said:


> Thank you guys. I'll check and pull lowers. Just to be 100% sure, what is oil level for first gen expert matto?


80mm for Mattoc Expert. 75mm for Mattoc Pro.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Shame shame shame.
After pulling damper i removed 3ml of damper oil.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

On another note- should I be able to use more travel than set? Even ignoring the possibility that I could have set a couple of mm more than 140 with the pipe, or extended the fork too hard, only 7mm effectively from the crown with a 10mm spacer under the bumper doesn't sound right, I get 145mm of travel when bottoming hard, with a metallic sound, which may or may not be HBO cones hitting each other, hard to tell as the spokes make a loud bang too.
The HBO works well, I turned it off for testing out of curiosity.
ps. does the order of the parts matter by any chance? I put the travel adjust spacer under the aluminium washer on the air shaft, under the rubber bumper.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

yesterday I took 1st time in year my enduro bike to bikepark. Mattoc 2 160mm with IRT in front. I just couldnt belive how good it worked. Maybe firsnt inch is not so coily, but then airspring is awsome. I had weird feeling that on parking fork feels soft and rebound is too fast, but on the trail it worked best. 40/100 psi (72kg/159lbs), 1 click in of rebound and none compression. Also 3 clicks in of HBO. No hands fatigue at all. Compliance close to coil. Thats definitly good ****  Also this time as bath oil was used thin silkolene rsf 10. Worked better than supergliss, cuz supergliss slows down fork movements creating additional harshness.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> On another note- should I be able to use more travel than set? Even ignoring the possibility that I could have set a couple of mm more than 140 with the pipe, or extended the fork too hard, only 7mm effectively from the crown with a 10mm spacer under the bumper doesn't sound right, I get 145mm of travel when bottoming hard, with a metallic sound, which may or may not be HBO cones hitting each other, hard to tell as the spokes make a loud bang too.
> The HBO works well, I turned it off for testing out of curiosity.
> ps. does the order of the parts matter by any chance? I put the travel adjust spacer under the aluminium washer on the air shaft, under the rubber bumper.


A metal on metal bottom-out means you have the long bottom-out cone and don't have the 10mm spacers under the bottom-out bumpers.

Depending on your wheel size and fork, the fix is either the shorter HBO cone or install the spacers.
The longer HBO cone is only used on the non-boost forks in the 27" wheel configuration.


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## Phiu-x (Mar 23, 2010)

GuitsBoy said:


> Has anybody attempted to fit the IVA sliding seal on an IRT shaft?
> 
> I'm wondering if you could make an IRT for the newer comp forks that come with the IVA by swapping sliding piston/seals?


Late to the party but this forum need to know!

Just dit it this morning on a Mastodon COMP (yes, not a PRO model) which has the same 34mm stanchions as the Mattoc COMP and has those same sligthly smaller inner OD, as I quickly found out last night when I tried to put the stock IRT assembly into it. It would not fit UNTIL this post gave me the idea to swap piston. BINGO! I swapped piston easily, a 30 sec job really. Grease everything up and screw the assembly in. It is normal to feel a slight resistance when you do as the new seal (on the black cap) compress, but manhandle it a bit and it will go in. Because both IVA and IRT cap fit on both fork model, they use the same thread. So to be clear , the IRT kit mfg #141-32668-K003 from Manitou fit in the Mattoc and Manitou COMP forks (34mm) when you swap the white IRT piston for the black IVA piston. Well worth upgrade IMO. Thanks!


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Pull the lower legs and check if you can push the damper shaft in all the way by hand.
> 
> If you can't then the oil level is too high. Riding with the oil level too high can damage the damper. Too low just makes it slurpy.


After adjusting the oil level i can push till the end but i need some force. It hurts my hand. Still to much oil?

The last 3 cm or so i can hear somthing, think it is the black foam compressing. Is that normal?


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Phiu-x said:


> So to be clear , the IRT kit mfg #141-32668-K003 from Manitou fit in the Mattoc and Manitou COMP forks (34mm) when you swap the white IRT piston for the black IVA piston. Well worth upgrade IMO. Thanks!


 Maybe the Mastadon Comp and Pro share the same threads, but the Mattoc Comp and Pro do not share the same threads. Yes, swapping pistons will fit, but without the ability to thread the IRT top cap into the Mattoc Comp, the whole task is pointless. But if it works for the mastadon, thats great.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Maybe the Mastadon Comp and Pro share the same threads, but the Mattoc Comp and Pro do not share the same threads. Yes, swapping pistons will fit, but without the ability to thread the IRT top cap into the Mattoc Comp, the whole task is pointless. But if it works for the mastadon, thats great.


There has been a change in Mattoc top-cap threads to provide more metal and stiffen up the stanchion/crown interface.

I don't think it's about pro vs comp. More about build date and batch.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> There has been a change in Mattoc top-cap threads to provide more metal and stiffen up the stanchion/crown interface.
> 
> I don't think it's about pro vs comp. More about build date and batch.


If that's the case, how would one order an IRT kit for the revised top cap threads? Or do they simply not offer it since all pro versions come stock with IRT these days?

My recent k003 kit arrived with the old threads that fit my 2014 mattoc pro, and 2016 magnum pro, but not the 2018 comp.


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## Phiu-x (Mar 23, 2010)

GuitsBoy said:


> Maybe the Mastadon Comp and Pro share the same threads, but the Mattoc Comp and Pro do not share the same threads. Yes, swapping pistons will fit, but without the ability to thread the IRT top cap into the Mattoc Comp, the whole task is pointless. But if it works for the mastadon, thats great.


Funny, because this guy did the same mod on a Mattoc comp ...

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2235879/

Nothing to do with the threads. but all with the initial insertion. I admit that there is a lot of resistance at first. To the point that I did a double take before I decided to force it in initially. It really seem like IT won't fit but it did . Only on initial insertion .. as a matter of fact when I pulled it out after a day riding I was able to screw it back by hand...and I can still put my IVA cap in If I want. That is why i recommended to manhandle it.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Phiu-x said:


> Funny, because this guy did the same mod on a Mattoc comp ...
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2235879/
> 
> Nothing to do with the threads. but all with the initial insertion. I admit that there is a lot of resistance at first. To the point that I did a double take before I decided to force it in initially. It really seem like IT won't fit but it did . Only on initial insertion .. as a matter of fact when I pulled it out after a day riding I was able to screw it back by hand...and I can still put my IVA cap in If I want. That is why i recommended to manhandle it.


Yeah, I saw that a while ago which is why I really gave it a good try to get it to work, but for me it was a no-go.

Assuming Dougals explanation, the pinkbike guy got it to work because it was an older mattoc comp, and therefore had the older style threads.

Like I said, I was able to get the piston to fit in just fine. Like you, there was some initial resistance but it did go in. But once I got to the top cap, it wouldn't screw in. I grabbed my calipers and the thread diameter was indeed considerably different.

But as per Dougal, it seems all late model mattocs have a smaller top cap thread diameter, not just the comp. In my case, my comp was simply the only model new enough to have the change.


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## Phiu-x (Mar 23, 2010)

GuitsBoy said:


> Yeah, I saw that a while ago which is why I really gave it a good try to get it to work, but for me it was a no-go.
> 
> Assuming Dougals explanation, the pinkbike guy got it to work because it was an older mattoc comp, and therefore had the older style threads.
> 
> ...


Yes, just saw Dougal's comment about this. A real bummer then. Seem like Manitou does not want existing owners to add value to their purchase and they seem to work pretty hard to change specs on a whim to lock us out of most upgrades. Who would have thought !!!


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## smegoal (Apr 18, 2019)

*help identifying fork*

Hi

Could anyone identify this for I just bought it for my ns eccentric (140 mm ht) with the intention of pulling it apart and taking spacers out to 140 mm.

If anyone could have a guess at the year/version would be appreciated if its more then a few years ill change the seals while I am in there.









If anyone has had one of this version is there anything else I should be aware of.

cheers kyle


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## GNU_BLIND (Aug 5, 2015)

smegoal said:


> Hi
> 
> Could anyone identify this for I just bought it for my ns eccentric (140 mm ht) with the intention of pulling it apart and taking spacers out to 140 mm.
> 
> ...


Looks to be 2016ish


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

New, updated Mattoc comps are now available. 

Biggest changes are a few rebound piston that flows oil better on the compression stroke andno longer uses a triangle rebound face shim. This allows for easier at home tuning.

It also is the first fork to use the new VTT damper. It has 3 compression positions using two separate shim stacks. A normal trail tuned stack is used for open and middle positions, the lock position closes off the flow to the main stack and diverts flow to a second stack used for climbing. Stock configuration is basically a fully lock out, though it can be tuned to any stiffness you want if you are willing to tear into it.

Expert air (dorado air) and IVA are carried over from the last version.

I have been riding one for around a year, its a pretty nice set up. The new rebound piston is a nice upgrade. I tried a few different tunes, but actually liked what became the stock rebuild tune the best (160lbs running 66.5psi with IVA with full volume reduction). I tried a bunch of different compression tunes as well, but found what became the stock tune to work the best as well.

I recently switched back to a Mattoc pro with Dougals high flow rebound piston and I have to say, the jump is not huge in performance when moving up. Don't gete wrong, the more adjustable damper and added midstroke support from the IRT made for a better ride, but the comp version really holds its own for $300 less($549usd msrp). Makes for a nice bang for your buck imo.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> New, updated Mattoc comps are now available.
> 
> Biggest changes are a few rebound piston that flows oil better on the compression stroke andno longer uses a triangle rebound face shim. This allows for easier at home tuning.
> 
> ...


My Expert has the triangle rebound face shim - any chance that Comp rebound piston could retro-fit the Expert?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fsrxc said:


> My Expert has the triangle rebound face shim - any chance that Comp rebound piston could retro-fit the Expert?


Nay. The Expert has taper wall stanchions (like the Pro) with a bigger diameter piston. The Comp's use straight wall stanchions with a smaller rebound piston.

The Circus Pro (Mattoc Pro based) has a newly designed excellent rebound piston of the correct diameter. But there's probably something preventing it's fitment. I don't have any expert pistons at hand to check.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> New, updated Mattoc comps are now available.
> 
> Biggest changes are a few rebound piston that flows oil better on the compression stroke andno longer uses a triangle rebound face shim. This allows for easier at home tuning.
> 
> ...


What about the Mattoc pro? I can't recall it getting the high flow piston as standard?


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Oops, Duplicate


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi, hoping you guys can help me out with a simple query - I've recently had my 2016 Mattoc Pro fork changed to 27.5 configuration, got it done at the same time as a service as I don't have the tools (or the time unfortunately currently). My question is - the a-c is the same as when it went in. Should it be 10mm longer? My understanding was a travel spacer gets moved to the bottom of the piston and extends the stanchions by 10mm to give the extra clearance - have I misunderstood?
Don't want to ride it and find my 27.5 wheel hits the fork crown...


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

If your fork was set to 170mm travel in the 26" configuration, then it will now have the same AC but 160mm travel in the 27.5" configuration. The travel spacer doesn't extend the stanchions, but limits the last 10mm of travel, preventing the crown hitting the larger wheel. 
If you kept travel the same (e.g. 150mm > 150mm), then AC will increase by 10mm. I would check travel. You either gained AC or lost travel. If neither changed, they didn't install the spacer correctly.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

I have a 2018 (I think) Mattoc Comp with around 110 hours of use. By the end of my ride this afternoon the fork had become quite stiff during low speed compressions. I noticed when track standing and moving my body weight forward and back, the fork did not move at all. High speed hits were still responding on the trail but it was also noisier in operation, like a chattering sound. 

I took the lowers off to inspect, and barely a drop of oil came out on either side. This is strange as I serviced the lowers about 10 hours' riding ago. I've not noticed any leaks from the fork. I'm wondering if it's possible the oil has leaked out the bottom of the fork ie where the rods connect to the lowers? Since I nearly stripped those threads when I first serviced the fork, I was careful not to over-tighten during the recent service. I don't have a dual direction torque wrench, so I can't be sure it was torqued correctly other than having a few practice attempts first to 'feel' the 3.5Nm (off the top of my head) on another fastener. 

Is it likely the oil was lost out through the bottom of the lowers? I haven't noticed any oil leaking from there and the bike is stored vertically, so the fork is more or less horizontal most of the time.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Another thought is when I removed and cleaned the foam rings (in alcohol), maybe I didn't soak them well enough with new oil before reinstallation, and some of the oil has gone into those? I don't think this accounts for a missing 7mL though.


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Mac1987 said:


> If your fork was set to 170mm travel in the 26" configuration, then it will now have the same AC but 160mm travel in the 27.5" configuration. The travel spacer doesn't extend the stanchions, but limits the last 10mm of travel, preventing the crown hitting the larger wheel.
> If you kept travel the same (e.g. 150mm > 150mm), then AC will increase by 10mm. I would check travel. You either gained AC or lost travel. If neither changed, they didn't install the spacer correctly.


Thanks. Fork was set to 140mm before it went in. I asked them to check whether it could be dropped to 130 in 27.5 configuration but they said it couldn't (I know that in 26" config it can't) so it should still be 140mm.

What is the best way to check travel? I removed all the air but couldn't compress it all the way down, felt like I was hitting the HBO maybe?


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Okay, seems like they added a travel spacer to the bottom of the compression rod, rather than moving one of the existing travel spacers. I take it that means that it is now restricted to 130mm? Have I understood correctly? Any issues with this?


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Checked - Seems when they did the 26 to 27.5 conversion they added a spacer to the end of the compression rod but didn't remove one from the travel adjust stack - Assume this means that travel has reduced to 130mm as the 27.5 configs ue one less travel spacer in the manual than the 26"? Are there any issues running the fork like this?


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Checked - Seems when they did the 26 to 27.5 conversion they added a spacer to the end of the compression rod but didn't remove one from the travel adjust stack - Assume this means that travel has reduced to 130mm as the 27.5 configs ue one less travel spacer in the manual than the 26"? Are there any issues running the fork like this?


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## stevet1 (Dec 14, 2007)

Err, ignore the duplicates, when I'm logged in I can't see my replies for some reason.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

stevet1 said:


> Thanks. Fork was set to 140mm before it went in. I asked them to check whether it could be dropped to 130 in 27.5 configuration but they said it couldn't (I know that in 26" config it can't) so it should still be 140mm.
> 
> What is the best way to check travel? I removed all the air but couldn't compress it all the way down, felt like I was hitting the HBO maybe?


If they just added the bottom spacer then you'll have 130mm travel now (10mm less).

HBO hits with a bang if you run the long 27" cone and no 10mm spacer under. I've been there and done that. So you had the 27" one in already.

You can keep adding top-out travel spacers into these to drop them to 0 travel if you want. But the air-curve can be a bit linear for shorter travel (if that concerns you).


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Hello, I recently started having problems with oil migration. Lubrication oil found its way to damper and negative air chamber. I use only 7ml in my 27.5" 160mm Mattoc Pro (first generation). Except that, there is a small leak on the bottom of the air side leg. Does anybody know size and type of seals for both seal heads and bottom of air shaft?

Thanks

Regards
Robo


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Hello, I recently started having problems with oil migration. Lubrication oil found its way to damper and negative air chamber. I use only 7ml in my 27.5" 160mm Mattoc Pro (first generation). Except that, there is a small leak on the bottom of the air side leg. Does anybody know size and type of seals for both seal heads and bottom of air shaft?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


Damper side has a 10x15x4 lip seal, air side has a quad-ring. Replace both with 10x3mm orings and you'll get better sealing with almost no oil migration.

You will need to remove the PTFE backup ring in the air side to fit the fatter oring.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal is right. I made this and have no problems. One thing im not sure is lower air cap oring. I push there one but dont remember sizing. For sure I didnt remove PTFE ring. Ohh found it! For air spring:
10x2,5
9,92x2,62
But Im still not sure which is used in my mattoc. Maybe even 10x3.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Damper side has a 10x15x4 lip seal, air side has a quad-ring. Replace both with 10x3mm orings and you'll get better sealing with almost no oil migration.
> 
> You will need to remove the PTFE backup ring in the air side to fit the fatter oring.


Thanks Dougal for quick reply.

What seal is at the bottom of each leg? I have drop of oil when I unscrew the air side cap.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RoboS said:


> Thanks Dougal for quick reply.
> 
> What seal is at the bottom of each leg? I have drop of oil when I unscrew the air side cap.


Bottom of each leg is the foot seal: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/trelleborg-seal-manitou.html

But these are incredibly tough and don't usually damage or leak. Your oil drip is most likely oil in the air spring which is travelling down the inside of the shaft to the cap.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Bottom of each leg is the foot seal: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/trelleborg-seal-manitou.html
> 
> But these are incredibly tough and don't usually damage or leak. Your oil drip is most likely oil in the air spring which is travelling down the inside of the shaft to the cap.


Thanks, you are the boss


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

One of my riding buddies picked up a mattoc 1 for his hardtail. We are putting in the new seals (seal plus foam ring) and I cant remember if the snap ring retainer that was with the original seals is put i place after the foam rings or is it just the foam rings and the new seal/wiper?

I think the snap ring is not used anymore?

Thanks!


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

006_007 said:


> One of my riding buddies picked up a mattoc 1 for his hardtail. We are putting in the new seals (seal plus foam ring) and I cant remember if the snap ring retainer that was with the original seals is put i place after the foam rings or is it just the foam rings and the new seal/wiper?
> 
> I think the snap ring is not used anymore?
> 
> Thanks!


No snap ring. The new seals have a lip that locks into that same groove.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Got mattoc 2 160mm with irt. Rider 72kg, 50/90 psi and some hbo. None lsc/hsc. Rebound full fast or few clicks in. Its great on everything except small breaking bumps. Big breaking bumps are fine, but I cannot find setting to smoothen those little bastards. Dougal any suggestion? Is it even possible on any fork? Its so fast that fork just get stunned. Pumping whole bike help a little or jumping over haha.


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Hello,

I have a 2014 Mattoc Expert. I have had issues with the damping of it and have sent it into Manitou twice now (only ridden it maybe 5 times).

I just got it back and it feels smooth, but the LSC doesn't seem to do anything. In order to "lockout" the fork I need to turn the HSC as well. Is this normal for this fork?

This seems to be how the fork is working, it will be supple for a ride or two then become extremely harsh with no LSC/HSC control, then I send it in.

On another note, I have now lost the rebound adjustment cap/screw twice. The second time after threadlocking. Is this also a known issue?

Thanks


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> Got mattoc 2 160mm with irt. Rider 72kg, 50/90 psi and some hbo. None lsc/hsc. Rebound full fast or few clicks in. Its great on everything except small breaking bumps. Big breaking bumps are fine, but I cannot find setting to smoothen those little bastards. Dougal any suggestion? Is it even possible on any fork? Its so fast that fork just get stunned. Pumping whole bike help a little or jumping over haha.


Are you running the new seals?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a 2014 Mattoc Expert. I have had issues with the damping of it and have sent it into Manitou twice now (only ridden it maybe 5 times).
> 
> I just got it back and it feels smooth, but the LSC doesn't seem to do anything. In order to "lockout" the fork I need to turn the HSC as well. Is this normal for this fork?


That's normal. LSC is not a lockout.



yourrealdad said:


> This seems to be how the fork is working, it will be supple for a ride or two then become extremely harsh with no LSC/HSC control, then I send it in.
> 
> On another note, I have now lost the rebound adjustment cap/screw twice. The second time after threadlocking. Is this also a known issue?
> 
> Thanks


That's not normal. Is the fork getting sticky (i.e. stiction issue). Rebound knob screw falls out if it's not tight enough.


----------



## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

No, not sticky. Just goes to extremely harsh to the point it is almost unridable as a suspension fork. 

Rebound knob was tight and loc-tited. Good to know that 2/3 things are normal. 

Manitou CS has been great, but just tired of paying $30 to ship it and not be able to ride it.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> No, not sticky. Just goes to extremely harsh to the point it is almost unridable as a suspension fork.
> 
> Rebound knob was tight and loc-tited. Good to know that 2/3 things are normal.
> 
> Manitou CS has been great, but just tired of paying $30 to ship it and not be able to ride it.


Harsh like a big increase in compression damping? I've never seen that.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Got mattoc 2 160mm with irt. Rider 72kg, 50/90 psi and some hbo. None lsc/hsc. Rebound full fast or few clicks in. Its great on everything except small breaking bumps. Big breaking bumps are fine, but I cannot find setting to smoothen those little bastards. Dougal any suggestion? Is it even possible on any fork? Its so fast that fork just get stunned. Pumping whole bike help a little or jumping over haha.


Burinishing the bushings can really help small bumps. But how small are we talking and how fast are you riding?

Have you got the high flow piston? What oil?

I run 40/80psi, full LSC, no HSC, high flow piston and hot oil pink. On high speed braking bumps the fork handles them way better when I'm strong and fresh, as soon as I let up on the bars you can get buzzed really quickly.

But yes, suspension does have limits. It cannot react faster than the frequency dictated by spring, damping and unsprung weight.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Burinishing the bushings can really help small bumps. But how small are we talking and how fast are you riding?
> 
> Have you got the high flow piston? What oil?
> 
> ...


Seals green SKF, oil silkolene rsf 2.5, stock piston. I mean really small breaking bumps. It doesnt matter if I break on them or not. Feels the same. I didnt mease but looks like 2-3cm height, every 10cm with speed like 30-40km/h.

According to spring. I used your method for main sprin. Back off lsr and cycle. 40 feels too soft and was wallowy on higher speeds. 50 psi is ok. 90 in irt is max without harshness. Lsr left backed off.

PS is it better to have light wheel on front fir better fork reaction to bumps?


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> Seals green SKF, oil silkolene rsf 2.5, stock piston. I mean really small breaking bumps. It doesnt matter if I break on them or not. Feels the same. I didnt mease but looks like 2-3cm height, every 10cm with speed like 30-40km/h.
> 
> According to spring. I used your method for main sprin. Back off lsr and cycle. 40 feels too soft and was wallowy on higher speeds. 50 psi is ok. 90 in irt is max without harshness. Lsr left backed off.
> 
> PS is it better to have light wheel on front fir better fork reaction to bumps?


What tire pressure are you running? When you get down to umps that small, tire pressure makes a huge difference.

What bath oil are you running as well? The green skf seals are great for friction, so they should work well in this situation.

I have started burnishing all the bushings on my forks. The only place I really noticed a difference was a set of Mattoc boost lower that had a bushing issue (completely fixed them). On forks that felt smooth prior, I didn't notice a difference. I still do it to every fork though, just to be safe.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> What tire pressure are you running? When you get down to umps that small, tire pressure makes a huge difference.
> 
> What bath oil are you running as well? The green skf seals are great for friction, so they should work well in this situation.
> 
> I have started burnishing all the bushings on my forks. The only place I really noticed a difference was a set of Mattoc boost lower that had a bushing issue (completely fixed them). On forks that felt smooth prior, I didn't notice a difference. I still do it to every fork though, just to be safe.


After second day Im completly happy with this fork. Its outstanding! Im just increasiing main pressure and its getting better. 1.5-1.6 in front tire.


----------



## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Yeah,

It goes from felling great and supple with correct sag to feeling like I am riding a rigid fork. 

Dougal, you said it was normal for me to have to use HSC to "lock out", but is it normal for LSC to not seem to do anything?

I am just used to Fox/RS and even other Manitou ( I have a Tower and Minute Pro) LSC having a noticeable affect on compression force/stiffness.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

yourrealdad said:


> Yeah,
> 
> It goes from felling great and supple with correct sag to feeling like I am riding a rigid fork.
> 
> ...


HSC adjuster gives LSC adjuster range, if you run HSC fully open, the oil will flow through high speed circuit and LSC adjuster will have very little to no effect.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Seals green SKF, oil silkolene rsf 2.5, stock piston. I mean really small breaking bumps. It doesnt matter if I break on them or not. Feels the same. I didnt mease but looks like 2-3cm height, every 10cm with speed like 30-40km/h.
> 
> According to spring. I used your method for main sprin. Back off lsr and cycle. 40 feels too soft and was wallowy on higher speeds. 50 psi is ok. 90 in irt is max without harshness. Lsr left backed off.
> 
> PS is it better to have light wheel on front fir better fork reaction to bumps?


Too much midvalve damping. You have too much compression damping on transition so you're running less LSC than you need and compensating with higher air pressure.

This is the reason I made the high flow piston modifications. With the HF piston you can increase LSC (I run closed) to stop wallow and provide support while running lower initial air pressure.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> Yeah,
> 
> It goes from felling great and supple with correct sag to feeling like I am riding a rigid fork.
> 
> ...


I almost wonder if you have a spring problem. Negative air leaking into the lower legs would do that. Damping I can't think of anything that would.

The Expert can have a problem where the rebound check spring comes off it's ledge, but that shows up as inconsistent knocking feeling.

As the others have said, LSC can only provide platform up to the HSC setting. With HSC open closed LSC will provide no platform but good support while moving.
The Tower and Minute usually have firmer shim stacks than the Mattoc so the LSC is more pronounced. You can however revalve the ABS+ in the Tower/Minute to do whatever you want.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Damper side has a 10x15x4 lip seal, air side has a quad-ring. Replace both with 10x3mm orings and you'll get better sealing with almost no oil migration.
> 
> You will need to remove the PTFE backup ring in the air side to fit the fatter oring.


This (oil migration) sounds like it may be the same problem I was describing above on my Comp, although I haven't yet pulled it apart again to check. Are the o-rings needed for the Comp the same as you mentioned earlier?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aiv23 said:


> This (oil migration) sounds like it may be the same problem I was describing above on my Comp, although I haven't yet pulled it apart again to check. Are the o-rings needed for the Comp the same as you mentioned earlier?


The Comp uses the same seals on the air-side, but the damper side is completely different.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

What seals do I need to fix the damper side on the Comp then?


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## winkothemadman (Dec 3, 2013)

My steerer is creaking pretty bady (its 100% the fork, installed it on two bikes, one has brand new headset that does not make a sound with other fork). Anything I can do or just send it back to crc?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

What's everyone's experience on the new low friction seals ability to keep dirt out?

On the three Mattoc's I've serviced the bath oil seemed a lot dirtier than I remember from the old seals at equal intervals and riding conditions, but I'm not sure if my memory is playing tricks on me. 

Does Manitou/Hayes still produce/distribute the old seals?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

The old ones did seem a bit better in keeping dirt out. The new ones are at least as good as the ones in both my Fox 32 and 34 though, and the increase in suppleness is noticeable. For me it's worth the slightly lower service interval.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

winkothemadman said:


> My steerer is creaking pretty bady (its 100% the fork, installed it on two bikes, one has brand new headset that does not make a sound with other fork). Anything I can do or just send it back to crc?


Send it back to CRC. They are also the UK importer and can fix it.



CS645 said:


> What's everyone's experience on the new low friction seals ability to keep dirt out?
> 
> On the three Mattoc's I've serviced the bath oil seemed a lot dirtier than I remember from the old seals at equal intervals and riding conditions, but I'm not sure if my memory is playing tricks on me.
> 
> Does Manitou/Hayes still produce/distribute the old seals?


I've been very impressed with their dust/mud and oil tightness.

__
http://instagr.am/p/BaXaEAelhUM/

I haven't noticed oil contamination as much as oil depletion. The bath oil film on the stanchions is more than tighter seals and you end up with less in the lowers. It's more important to keep up with it. 6 months of intensive riding and you can lose about 5cc from each side. Leaving only 2cc which is then pretty dark and degraded.

But well worth it. You do not want to go back to the old seals.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I've been very impressed with their dust/mud and oil tightness.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BaXaEAelhUM/
> ...


Well, I'm asking because I was servicing my old Mattoc which I sold to a friend and was a bit surprised by the amount of mud in it. I though, well this guy rides in all weather and does a lot of K's, so prolly combination of K's and poor cleaning standards.

However yesterday, I was doing a lower service on both our Mattoc's and the oil again was quite dirty (I put in 9cc in each leg), last service a few months ago. All three on the new seals.

I think to remember I was quite surprised in the past about how good the old seals were at keeping mud out. Of course I like the performance improvement, but the idea of mud scratching on the stanchions ....

I quite like the fact my oldest Mattoc is now more than four years old and still looking and working as should.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> Well, I'm asking because I was servicing my old Mattoc which I sold to a friend and was a bit surprised by the amount of mud in it. I though, well this guy rides in all weather and does a lot of K's, so prolly combination of K's and poor cleaning standards.
> 
> However yesterday, I was doing a lower service on both our Mattoc's and the oil again was quite dirty (I put in 9cc in each leg), last service a few months ago. All three on the new seals.
> 
> ...


Is it dirty or degraded oil?

When oil is worked it darkens in colour, then turns brown and eventually black as it degrades. It will do this even when kept completely clean of external contaminants.

If seals are leaking, water in the fork is one of the clearest signs. If the fork is ridden in damp conditions with worn seals then water gets in. If you use a bath oil with a dispersant (semi-bath, supergliss) it will go milky coloured as it holds the water. If you use an oil that seperates (fork oils) the water will sit in the bottom of any drained oil.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Is it dirty or degraded oil?
> 
> When oil is worked it darkens in colour, then turns brown and eventually black as it degrades. It will do this even when kept completely clean of external contaminants.
> 
> If seals are leaking, water in the fork is one of the clearest signs. If the fork is ridden in damp conditions with worn seals then water gets in. If you use a bath oil with a dispersant (semi-bath, supergliss) it will go milky coloured as it holds the water. If you use an oil that seperates (fork oils) the water will sit in the bottom of any drained oil.


I would describe it like chocolate milk. I automatically assumed it was debris, but reading your above explanation I probably shouldn't have. It's now in my oil collection pot so can't examine it further. I will do on my next service.

I spray the lower legs from the top with alcohol, so there was some separation but the oil itself was chocolate milk. So water ingestion seems likely. It was supergliss btw.

I wonder if there's a chance the new seals let the water in more easily than the old ones (especially when worn like you say).


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## ErnoNykanen (Sep 6, 2019)

I've been trying my best to go through and search this thread but I haven't found much information regarding the comparison between pro and comp.

Judging from the manufacturers website, they might as well be two different forks since the spring and damper appear to be different. Most of this thread's discussions seem to be around pro but is the comp any good? The price difference seems to be quite substantial.

I'm not a pro rider so I think I'll live without HBO and HSC adjustments but the overall performance and spring curve is something I'm looking for.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ErnoNykanen said:


> I've been trying my best to go through and search this thread but I haven't found much information regarding the comparison between pro and comp.
> 
> Judging from the manufacturers website, they might as well be two different forks since the spring and damper appear to be different. Most of this thread's discussions seem to be around pro but is the comp any good? The price difference seems to be quite substantial.
> 
> I'm not a pro rider so I think I'll live without HBO and HSC adjustments but the overall performance and spring curve is something I'm looking for.


The comp is an excellent fork. The spring systems between the comp and pro are the same, but the comp uses steel as the shaft material to keep costs down. Makes for the same performance, just a little heavier. Comps also use IVA instead of IRT. Basically a token system rather than I secondary air chamber.

The dampers (both VTT and abs+) person very well, they are just not as tuneable externally as the pros mc2 damper. The abs+ damper has a non adjustable HBO system. The VTT damper skips the HBO entirely. VTT has 2 compression shim stacks, one for a lock and one for main damping purposes. This allows for the main stack to work properly without need of preloading it. Basically, you get a XC lock out with the regular performance of the trail tune.

Chassis is mostly the same. Same lowers, same crown, different leg material (6066 aluminum instead of the pros 7050). Its slightly heavier, but also helps keep the price down.

The fine tuning of the pro is a benefit for people who are very particular, but the comp has 90% of the performance and a small weight penalty for hundreds cheaper. Its a great deal.


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## ErnoNykanen (Sep 6, 2019)

mullen119 said:


> [Snip to make quote shorter]
> The fine tuning of the pro is a benefit for people who are very particular, but the comp has 90% of the performance and a small weight penalty for hundreds cheaper. Its a great deal.


Cheers, that's exactly the kind of summary I was looking for! And also pretty much what I was hoping to hear. I'm for sure not a weight weenie and not experienced enough to tell the most subtle differences on the trail. I'm looking most likely to upgrade the Recon silver coming on my '20 Fuel Ex to something more robust and this would be a great alternative to sourcing a used Fox 34 or a Pike.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ac1000 said:


> How would you use shockwiz with this fork?





Dougal said:


> With this air-cap: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/magnum-comp-air-cap-manitou.html


This is an old post, but Dougal, are you saying, if you add that aircap to the top of the Mattoc, you can add air that way just to the positive chamber, and attach a shockwiz without it opening up the negative/postive together? Crazy if true (and would have saved me $250 if I read this before and bought a SMB Flow which I'm not too crazy about).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> This is an old post, but Dougal, are you saying, if you add that aircap to the top of the Mattoc, you can add air that way just to the positive chamber, and attach a shockwiz without it opening up the negative/postive together? Crazy if true (and would have saved me $250 if I read this before and bought a SMB Flow which I'm not too crazy about).


Yes. But keep in mind for 2020 Manitou have changed the top-cap threads. So check yours first.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

ac1000 said:


> How would you use shockwiz with this fork?





Dougal said:


> Yes. But keep in mind for 2020 Manitou have changed the top-cap threads. So check yours first.


Mine is the old CRC Pro 2 non-boost. Should be good.

As an aside, not relying on Shockwiz purely for setup. But I use it as sort of a check on what I'm feeling.

Surprisingly enough, my bike went out of commission because of drive train issues. Bronson v1 VPP2. I can never get it to where I like it. I'ts better with the mattoc and mcleod, but I'm still missing something.

Jumped on an Intense tracer with the VPP attached to the top tube instead of seat tube. He's 180'ish, I'm 140'ish, all geared up. Didn't want to touch his settings so I rode it as is.

His bike was so damn composed vs mine hauling arse down rocky rooty so cal terrain. Of course, my back was punished after a week. Like sciatica pain. But I liked how composed it was. Looking for that balance of support without the crazy pain in my back (which I guess I can tune with knobs after spring etc. is set).

I have IRT. Wonder if it can be taken apart to just use the cap for now


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

My irt seems to leak air. Is there a replacement o-ring kit i can buy somewhere, can't find any reference about them on the manitou website. Or should i just go to the local hardware store to try to source them there?

edit: I do have a full rebuild kit lying around, are the o-rings for the irt included in it?


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## ac1000 (Jan 2, 2014)

hurck said:


> My irt seems to leak air. Is there a replacement o-ring kit i can buy somewhere, can't find any reference about them on the manitou website. Or should i just go to the local hardware store to try to source them there?
> 
> edit: I do have a full rebuild kit lying around, are the o-rings for the irt included in it?


A while back I asked Manitou for the IRT O ring size.
They said:

The o-ring is included in the rebuild kit for your fork (part number 141-28528-K008). Alternatively the o-ring description is "O-RING 2-119 BUNA-N 70A". You can use this description to search for a replacement online or your nearest retailer who carries o-rings.

I found the 119 size oring in a bin at my work and it did the job.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

hurck said:


> My irt seems to leak air. Is there a replacement o-ring kit i can buy somewhere, can't find any reference about them on the manitou website. Or should i just go to the local hardware store to try to source them there?
> 
> edit: I do have a full rebuild kit lying around, are the o-rings for the irt included in it?


Just buy these orings
IRT seal inner - 9.19x2.62mm NBR70
IRT seal outer - 23,81x2,62mm NBR70

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks for your replies! I’ll check in the rebuild kit first when i get back from work. If it’s not in it i’ll order them online somewhere.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

Hi Guys,

slightly new member of the forum here and has been reading this thread. I just got my Mattoc Pro 2018 27.5+/29 120mm~140mm version. I noticed that I can't turn my HBO dial right out from the box, but from the info from the older pages I guess I just have to break this in and hopefully it will allow me to make HBO adjustments in the future.

This is also my first complicated fork but im still reading info on the net to learn more about it. I do have a question about the air chambers. This fork has air valve at the bottom and top [IRT], I emptied both and put air first from the bottom valve. Then i noticed that the same pressure that I put from the bottom is the same pressure that I'm getting when I plug in on the top valve. Is that expected?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

The IRT pressure (valve on the top) has to be equal to or higher than the main pressure (bottom valve), otherwise the main chamber just pushes the IRT piston back. 
It's also best to first pressurize the IRT and then the main chamber, otherwise the IRT will increase the pressure in the main chamber (because the pressurized IRT chamber increases IRT volume and decreases main volume up to the stop).


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

KillerKamote said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> slightly new member of the forum here and has been reading this thread. I just got my Mattoc Pro 2018 27.5+/29 120mm~140mm version. I noticed that I can't turn my HBO dial right out from the box, but from the info from the older pages I guess I just have to break this in and hopefully it will allow me to make HBO adjustments in the future.
> 
> This is also my first complicated fork but im still reading info on the net to learn more about it. I do have a question about the air chambers. This fork has air valve at the bottom and top [IRT], I emptied both and put air first from the bottom valve. Then i noticed that the same pressure that I put from the bottom is the same pressure that I'm getting when I plug in on the top valve. Is that expected?


No, what Mac said is correct. Dump out all the air from both chambers. Pull the legs apart and make sure everything is fully extended. Now, fill the top IRT chamber to roughly double what you think the bottom chamber will be. Now, turn bike upside down and again make sure the legs are fully extended. Now fill the bottom to your desired pressure.

The HBO should turn. IF it is still really tight, loosen the top screw a tiny bit and see if that helps.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

thanks for the advise guys will give it another go later on. will start hunting for that deep narrow socket and oil so i can do maintenance to this fork it the future.


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## ZeroNine3 (May 18, 2009)

I'm trying to decide between the Mattoc pro and circus pro 130mm... I'm building a 26" chromag stylus. Bike would probably be 50/50 dirt jumping and trail riding. 

I believe that the circus pro can be extended to 140... I'm willing to give up some trail performance for durability. How will the Mattoc hold up to dirt jumping? What's the difference between the abs+ damper and the mc2 damper?


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

What should be the expected break in time for the new low friction seals? Picked up a Mattoc Pro 27.5 Boost with the interested fender so I know it has the new seals. I've got about 75 miles on it and I feel like there's a lot more striction that there should be, even more than my old Recon RL. I pulled the lowers and coated the seals in SRAM butter which seemed to help. I also noticed more dirt in the lower leg oil than I was expecting too.

I have no issue getting through my travel on the trails, it's just not as supple as I was expecting when it comes to low speed compliance and the initial breakaway stiction seems high.

Any thoughts on this? I emailed Manitou support Sunday and haven't heard back yet.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

When I got my Pro 2 from CRC, it was smooth like butter right away. I notice more stiction now and looking for a rebuild. It's been a year or more, and I haven't opened it up yet even for lower service. 

About 2,000 miles in. Do I need to replace everything, or just take apart, clean, assemble? Is this the kid I need?

https://www.performancebike.com/man...MIm8q28en95AIVk8BkCh1JGgF-EAQYBCABEgJ-v_D_BwE


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

I think my mattoc has developed bushing play on the damper side. When i hold the front brake and rock the bike fore and aft i can feel play and clicking in the handle bars. Doing the same thing with a finger wedged between the uppers and arch I can feel the play at that location. Would a lowers service fix this ? The fork is about 2 years old. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

First time poster/user with a 160mm Mattoc Pro Boost, fork dated 5/12/17. I put this unused fork on a carbon Salsa Redpoint frame from the same year, finally finished building it six months ago. I am a big fan of Manitou and the ABS+ custom tune setups, so going to IRT and MC2 with HBO has been quite the learning curve. Yesterday I decided to drop my pressures from 100/50 to 60/40 (170lbs) and was shocked at the difference it made and how much more it soaked up, and how much better it felt. For the first time, I was actually able to dial in HSC and LSC and actually feel the differences the changes made on the ride. The only thing I had to compensate was speeding up the rebound to balance the ride out better. More to try and test out.

Here is the ride:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> I think my mattoc has developed bushing play on the damper side. When i hold the front brake and rock the bike fore and aft i can feel play and clicking in the handle bars. Doing the same thing with a finger wedged between the uppers and arch I can feel the play at that location. Would a lowers service fix this ? The fork is about 2 years old.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


A lowers service will make it less noticable, but to fix it requires the top bushing to be resized and possibly shimmed.


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## Langestrom (Nov 27, 2017)

*Langestrom's guide to un-f your shaft foot*

*Langestrom's guide to un-f your shaft foot *

_Disclamer: It was almost a year ago, I really don't know the right terminology, and I've had a beer while writing this. Dougal might need to correct me here._​
The shaft foot is a real champ, and unsung hero. It does a lot of things in the mattoc.


It attaches the rebound assembly to the outer casing. 
It holds the bearing balls that is the mechanics behind the rebound clicks. 
It breaks when you use a clockwise torque wrench, counter clockwise. 

*How it works*
The shaft foot is attached to the outer rebound shaft.
On the shaft foot there is a circular spring.
The spring holds two (cant remember if it was two, or one balls, beer doesn't help here) small bearing balls in place.
On the inner rebound shaft, the one that pokes through the center of the shaft and where the rebound dial is attached to, there are some splines.
In normal operation conditions the balls rests comfortably in the valley of mentioned splines.

When you turn the rebound dial (and therefore the inner shaft), you force the bearing balls to move outward, normal from the shaft surface, and then in to the next spline. This is what we feel as a "rebound click".

*How to fix it.*

_But first!_
If there is any kind of seals, rubber gaskets or round soft things *on the outer shaft, slide them out of the way*. (Can't really remember if there is a seal on the outer shaft, close to the shaft foot, but it looks like it on the pics.)

Any other seal ON the shaft foot should be removed, and installed on the new one. If it doesn't come with new ones that is.

*HOW TO.*


Remove spring, towards the outer shaft, using some kind of pick 
Remove the balls, the one, or two, in the shaft foot. Not the other ones. 
Clamp the outer shaft in some soft jaws, close but not to close to the shaft foot, as it might press on the threads, which you are trying to untread. 
Use some tongue-and-groove plies, or equivalent to unthread the old shaft foot 
Add some thread lock on to the new shaft foot and install it 
Install the bearing balls and spring 

Done.


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

@ Lanstrom, awesome post, much appreciated! I am having to do this on my wifes Magnum, you would think I would be able to avoid ham-fisting a four year old fork with countless bath oil changes. 

@ Dougal, Since I have the rebound assy. out of the Magnum Comp, I notice the blue piston there looks identical to your High Flow Piston that you offer for the Mattoc. If they are the same dimensions, I may have to do a part swap... I don't think the wife would notice. Any help would be appreciated!!


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

I've read (I think!) that the Mezzer has a reduced irt volume ratio against the main spring. Is there any benefit to reducing the volume of irt in the Mattoc?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Crankyanken said:


> @ Lanstrom, awesome post, much appreciated! I am having to do this on my wifes Magnum, you would think I would be able to avoid ham-fisting a four year old fork with countless bath oil changes.
> 
> @ Dougal, Since I have the rebound assy. out of the Magnum Comp, I notice the blue piston there looks identical to your High Flow Piston that you offer for the Mattoc. If they are the same dimensions, I may have to do a part swap... I don't think the wife would notice. Any help would be appreciated!!


Magnum/Mattoc comp will have a rebound piston around 31mm OD. The Mattoc Pro high flow piston is not quite 16mm.



neb said:


> I've read (I think!) that the Mezzer has a reduced irt volume ratio against the main spring. Is there any benefit to reducing the volume of irt in the Mattoc?


It's easy and cheap to test. Splurge some grease into the IRT chamber.

The Mezzer has different volumes for positive, negative and IRT as it was the first fork Manitou have designed from the start for IRT. The Mattoc and Dorado IRT were retrofits to work with existing air chambers.

Interestingly the mattoc comp is the one with the most flexibility for air volume changes as it has a constant diameter inside the stanchions. The Pro is tapered in the middle.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

Dougal said:


> It's easy and cheap to test. Splurge some grease into the IRT chamber.
> 
> The Mezzer has different volumes for positive, negative and IRT as it was the first fork Manitou have designed from the start for IRT. The Mattoc and Dorado IRT were retrofits to work with existing air chambers.
> 
> Interestingly the mattoc comp is the one with the most flexibility for air volume changes as it has a constant diameter inside the stanchions. The Pro is tapered in the middle.


Cool, thanks for that. I was thinking of spacing the irt piston away from the end stop, so reducing the irt volume and increasing the main spring slightly.

Cheers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

neb said:


> Cool, thanks for that. I was thinking of spacing the irt piston away from the end stop, so reducing the irt volume and increasing the main spring slightly.
> 
> Cheers


Sure. Putting a spacer on the shaft (increasing main volume while reducing IRT volume) will make IRT kick in later as it takes more stroke for the main to build to IRT pressure.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

ANyone seen some NOS non boost 29 expert or pros around? My Auron is starting to feel pretty rough, when I compared it to my Mattoc on my other 2 bikes.....definitely something going on that I can't seem to get fixed


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kendunn said:


> ANyone seen some NOS non boost 29 expert or pros around? My Auron is starting to feel pretty rough, when I compared it to my Mattoc on my other 2 bikes.....definitely something going on that I can't seem to get fixed


There are no non-boost 29er's. Only the 27+/29" which was a boost fork or the 29+ which is also boost.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

mullen119 said:


> I'm biased, but will give my 2 cents(key word is my, I am in no way speaking for Manitou)
> 
> Pink bike clearly got a bad fork. No excuses for this, its just what happened. Over the last few weeks, the bushing issue has come to Manitou's attention and is being worked out. I'm not going to speak on this at the moment, but it will be publicly addressed very soon. If you are the owner of a fork with a bushing issue, you will be taken care of.
> 
> ...


mullen you posted this in the Mezzer thread, and it got me thinking. Can you tell me more about how the damper behaves? Perhaps that's whats stumping me as I try to dial in my suspension. It's working okay but I can't seem to dial it in as I get closer to what I like, then make an adjustment and it's further off than before.

I have mattoc and mcleod on a Bronson v1. The best it's felt was when I wasn't using even 70% of my travel. I know, don't tune for using all the travel. Also the point about damping actually doesn't make it harsher all of the time, that sounds interesting.


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## Frs1661 (Jun 9, 2008)

I have a 29+ Magnum Comp set @120 mm. Can the travel be extended to 130 or 140 mm? My impression is no, but the air shaft has 2 spacers that could hypothetically be removed...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Frs1661 said:


> I have a 29+ Magnum Comp set @120 mm. Can the travel be extended to 130 or 140 mm? My impression is no, but the air shaft has 2 spacers that could hypothetically be removed...


Unfortunately no. 120mm max for the 29+. The 27+/29" can go to 140mm and can be modified for a shade more.


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## Frs1661 (Jun 9, 2008)

Too bad-- thanks Dougal!


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

So I installed the IRT without knowing to grease it all up, I'm pretty sure it's shot as it's dry. It seems to hold pressure though, no shifting or seeping. Lube her up and she's good to go?

Looks like grainger carries them so I gotta buy 50 of those orings.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> So I installed the IRT without knowing to grease it all up, I'm pretty sure it's shot as it's dry. It seems to hold pressure though, no shifting or seeping. Lube her up and she's good to go?
> 
> Looks like grainger carries them so I gotta buy 50 of those orings.


-110 is the size code, N70 is the material.

If it still holds air you're probably good to go. If it leaks your fork gets firmer.


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## Htshan (Oct 21, 2019)

Hi guys, 
i'd need an help with rebound assembly. I did some search, but couldn't find the right stuff, probably my english isn't good enough ( as my technical language knowledge ).

I was doing an air service to my Mattoc, the rebound knob adjuster's screw wouldn't come off and i rounded the hex head by adding some strenght. I could unscrew it using a torx screwdriver and a good amount of strenght.
When I re assembled the fork I realized my rebound wouldn't turn anymore.
So, I reopened it, this time also damper side. Rebound assembly came out without "piston head" ( don't know if that is correct ) that was unscrewed and stuck into stanchion. 

What can I do to unlock the rebound? Is there any photo or documentation on how to do a service to rebound? 
I saw on top of rebound a 5mm allen key fits, so I'm thinking to unscrew from there while holding firmly the rebound knob with a wrench. 
Is that correct? Any suggestions? 

Thanks in advance


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The rebound adjuster is just an aluminium screw with long shaft, since you tried to unscrew the adjuster screw, you jammed the adjuster all the way to the left, I doubt you stripped the threads this way, as there is quite a good interface, you need to get a fitting hex socket (5.5 mm if I remember correctly) and turn the adjustment shaft clockwise, after done remember to hold the adjustment knob when trying to undo the screw next time. I don't run the knob myself, as the previous owner lost it, and since I setup the rebound once, I don't feel the need for it.


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## Htshan (Oct 21, 2019)

piciu256 said:


> The rebound adjuster is just an aluminium screw with long shaft, since you tried to unscrew the adjuster screw, you jammed the adjuster all the way to the left, I doubt you stripped the threads this way, as there is quite a good interface, you need to get a fitting hex socket (5.5 mm if I remember correctly) and turn the adjustment shaft clockwise, after done remember to hold the adjustment knob when trying to undo the screw next time. I don't run the knob myself, as the previous owner lost it, and since I setup the rebound once, I don't feel the need for it.


Thank you for you reply,
just to be sure we understood each other  :

- My knob is still ok and engages correctly the shaft. Just have to replace the old screw
- When uscrewing I'm pretty sure I was holding the knob, could be all way right if perhaps I counter rotated the knob when using the screwdriver.
- I had to hit the screwdriver to make it grip in the screw head...not hard but who knows, probably it wasn't a smart move 
- If I hold the shaft, I can't turn knob anymore










I'll give a try like this, without exceeding in both direction. Unfortunately the first socket I found isn't long/thin enough to fit knob spot


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So you still have the damper apart? That makes things a whole lot easier, just take apart the assembly (top or bottom, doesn't matter) to release the tension from the shaft, that way you'll avoid turning in the wrong direction.


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## Htshan (Oct 21, 2019)

Meanwhile, went to my secret room and solved it. I wasn't sure adding force would be the method.
What a waste of time... I could just force the knob when I first reassembled. Now I have to refill both oils

Thanks


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I was playing around with my air pressures...


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## nashwillis (Dec 27, 2012)

I am looking at getting a 2018 mattoc pro, 191-34120-A001, if I am planning on lowering it to 140mm is there anything else I need to check or replace when doing so? New seals?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, I just realised that my Mattoc is getting sucked down very slowly, it collapsed 10mm in one month, I guess it should have happened in the 6 or so hours of riding, cause at full extension the negative chamber pressure is actually higher than positive. What should I do to fix it, the quad ring is pretty much new, so it's not the problem (I replaced it cause I thought it was the issue)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> So, I just realised that my Mattoc is getting sucked down very slowly, it collapsed 10mm in one month, I guess it should have happened in the 6 or so hours of riding, cause at full extension the negative chamber pressure is actually higher than positive. What should I do to fix it, the quad ring is pretty much new, so it's not the problem (I replaced it cause I thought it was the issue)


How old is your Mattoc? Any chance the piston got scratched when changing the quad-ring?

If the negative shaft seal is worn it can pull in bath oil to the negative and that shortens the fork. The best replacement for that is a 10x3 metric o-ring. It seals a lot tighter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

After riding the Mezzer and going back to the Mattoc (while my Mezzer was on Demo) I'm tweaking my IRT pressures even more.

I used to ride 40/60psi. That increased to 40/80psi as I started riding harder.
This week I tried 35/85 and I think I like it. More sensitive, still great mid-end support and I don't have excessive sag. I had to speed the rebound up a click.

Trails were a mix of technical uphill and tight-technical rocky downhills. No high speed. 70kg rider plus gear.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

What settings did you use for HSC/LSC/LSR with those pressures? I weigh 72-75 kg and run higher pressure without doing large jumps and drops (0.7 meter max). I suspect you run far more compression damping. I tried lower pressures in the past, but the fork got too wallowy.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> What settings did you use for HSC/LSC/LSR with those pressures? I weigh 72-75 kg and run higher pressure without doing large jumps and drops (0.7 meter max). I suspect you run far more compression damping. I tried lower pressures in the past, but the fork got too wallowy.
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONEPLUS A6013 met Tapatalk


High flow piston, Hot Oil Pink, LSC closed or 1 click open. No HSC.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's the first gen, it's not pulling in oil to the chamber, not that there would be enough oil to affect it so much anyway, piston is not scratched- made sure of that (didn't use any tools to pry the seal off, just fingers) the inside stanchion is not damaged either, nor there is debris between it and the seal (if there were, it would suck down a lot faster) 
How would one go about replacing the shaft seal anyway? I don't see how without destroying the bushing.


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

It's always interesting to see wide range of pressures that work for people. I'm roughly same weight, 155lbs, and run ~60 main / 115 irt @ 160mm of travel with a healthy dose of HSC too. It's a taught/supportive ride but still regularly bottom out. The low friction of the mattoc + cushcore I think also lets me get away with pressures I use.

I do hit high speed chunk and jumps for context but I would recommend folks not shy away from higher pressures/more dampening, feels great for me.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

croakies said:


> It's always interesting to see wide range of pressures that work for people. I'm roughly same weight, 155lbs, and run ~60 main / 115 irt @ 160mm of travel with a healthy dose of HSC too. It's a taught/supportive ride but still regularly bottom out. The low friction of the mattoc + cushcore I think also lets me get away with pressures I use.
> 
> I do hit high speed chunk and jumps for context but I would recommend folks not shy away from higher pressures/more dampening, feels great for me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I once got a demo Mattoc back from a normal size rider with 180psi in the IRT!


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I once got a demo Mattoc back from a normal size rider with 180psi in the IRT!


Dangggg! I wonder at what % of travel irt would even start moving in that scenario.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Probably just someone used to riding rock sucks forks stuffed with volume spacers, I personally run 50psi (140mm) with 4 IVA spacers (old version with no extension) to achieve linear travel and good support, its comfortable enough.
Many people don't realise that damping (not dampening btw. dampening makes you wet, damping makes you go fast) can make the suspension more comfortable to ride in many situations, by dissipating the energy in both directions- less preload in the sprig means less force pushing against your hands.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I just bought a new hardtail bike with a Mattoc Comp fork (a big selling point) to complement my enduro bike. The manual for the fork does nothing to explain the air system and how to set it up. Also, the top cap for the air spring won't budge. 

I'm sorry that I don't want to go searching through 24 pages to find out how this thing works. Can someone explain what different air valves do and how to set them up?

Thanks much.


Curve.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Curveball said:


> I just bought a new hardtail bike with a Mattoc Comp fork (a big selling point) to complement my enduro bike. The manual for the fork does nothing to explain the air system and how to set it up. Also, the top cap for the air spring won't budge.
> 
> I'm sorry that I don't want to go searching through 24 pages to find out how this thing works. Can someone explain what different air valves do and how to set them up?


I just pulled up the service manual for the Mattoc Comp.
https://manitoumtb.com/wp-content/u...oc-Comp-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change-1.pdf

The air spring side has a top cap at the crown and another one on the bottom of the leg. The top cap is for the volume adjust system and requires a 24mm socket to remove, you probably won't need to remove it unless you want to adjust the air spring volume. The bottom one is where you add & remove air, attach air pump, inflate as needed, make sure fork is fully extended, remove air pump.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Where can you purchase the Mattoc Pro, shipped to the US? Really having a hard time figuring this out, but it's the fork I want over Fox, RS and MRP. 
The website is not helpful and can't seem to locate the fork I need...a Mattoc Pro 140 29er boost. Wow, I guess good things are just hard to come by these days...or am I not looking hard enough??


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Where can you purchase the Mattoc Pro, shipped to the US? Really having a hard time figuring this out, but it's the fork I want over Fox, RS and MRP.
> The website is not helpful and can't seem to locate the fork I need...a Mattoc Pro 140 29er boost. Wow, I guess good things are just hard to come by these days...or am I not looking hard enough??


You can buy it direct from Manitou

https://shop.hayesperformance.com/c...ered-steerer-15mm-axle?variant=10645560950820


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> You can buy it direct from Manitou
> 
> https://shop.hayesperformance.com/c...ered-steerer-15mm-axle?variant=10645560950820


Thank you! I can assume that the 120mm version can be internally adjusted up to 140mm? Did not see that I could scroll to other pages with more choices on the Mattoc Pro.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Thank you! I can assume that the 120mm version can be internally adjusted up to 140mm? Did not see that I could scroll to other pages with more choices on the Mattoc Pro.


Yes, the 120mm can extend to 140mm. The 100 can not though, so make sure to buy the 120.

Manitou (and all of the Hayes group brands) are now selling direct, so you should be able to buy anything you need from them. Some service parts are cheaper to find elsewhere though


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*Mattoc leaking air into negative.*

I compressed my Mattoc 100mm from full extension overnight, in 12 hours it sucked down 10mm, since it was static, no oil could be sucked in etc. no pressure was trapped in the lowers. 
So... Since it had 70h of riding on it anyway, I took my Mattoc apart, unfortunately the main air seal is in mint condition, didn't have any debris stuck on or under, the internal stanchion is not scratched either (no that it should matter, with the oil and grease running inside, it shouldn't be able to leak unless they ran out with small scratches anyway) so all that remains is the poppet valve itself, I was unable to take it apart as the bottom unscrewed, not the top (I don't have clamp blocks), there might be some debris stuck in there (I was careless with cleanliness of my pump) or a toast o-ring seal, anyway, I bet on the debris (hope remains), few days ago I flushed it from the inside (put high pressure in and release it rapidly several times), did nothing apparently, now I put some solvent in the shaft and pushed it through at high pressure with my floor pump, if that doesn't help, I don't know what to do apart from checking the extension every 2 rides or so :/ What really sucks about this situation is that it's hard to find good pressure setting this way, as every ride has a bit different spring balance...
One good thing I saw was that the low friction seals do a really impressive job, 70h of hard riding in dusty conditions, and to my eye all the oil remains in the lowers, the sponges are still properly moist and most importantly- everything is perfectly clean! (unlike with Fox and RS low friction seals) Even the grease I put on the seals is still there, perfectly clean, that tells me 200h (don't know what Manitou recommend) service intervals should no issue at all, remains to see if they last as long as the old ones did (had a 10yo Skareb with factory seals still running clean)
As for air spring, again with my eye I can't say any slick honey escaped, so it indeed is the best grease to use on suspension, everything was coated with it inside, as if some of it separated into oil (probably did), I'm digging it


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I wonder if the next "Mattoc" will go 35mm. If you're going to do a new chassis to safe weight you can just as well up the diameter to increase stiffness some want and increase the room for increased negative air volume. And then you of course have the marketing advantage of "bigger is better".

Withh the Mezzer at 37mm I could see it happen.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*After service, its still leaking air into negative*

Does anyone have the oring dimensions or at least photos of the poppet valve internals? Is wood a good material for clamp blocks to hold the air shaft? Is there anything to be aware off apart from small spring flying? With everything in check, all that remains is the poppet valve being toast, might it be cause I'm using the 4mm hex key to undo the stanchions? Could I have pushed it too far up and mangled the seal?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

aerius said:


> I just pulled up the service manual for the Mattoc Comp.
> https://manitoumtb.com/wp-content/u...oc-Comp-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change-1.pdf
> 
> The air spring side has a top cap at the crown and another one on the bottom of the leg. The top cap is for the volume adjust system and requires a 24mm socket to remove, you probably won't need to remove it unless you want to adjust the air spring volume. The bottom one is where you add & remove air, attach air pump, inflate as needed, make sure fork is fully extended, remove air pump.


Thanks much for the information. I didn't even notice the wrench flats on the top cap in my dark garage.

The initial ride on the mellow local trails indicates that it's a pretty nice fork. I have no doubt that it's significantly better than the RockShox forks in this price range.


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## BikesandWind (Aug 31, 2017)

My Mattoc comp has developed a similar knock that is noticeable at stand still. What did it end up being. Lachman - did Wiggle cover it under warranty? Cheers


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

Does anyone know if you can put Mattoc Pro parts (MC2 damper, rebound, IRT) onto the Mattoc comp?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Crankyanken said:


> Does anyone know if you can put Mattoc Pro parts (MC2 damper, rebound, IRT) onto the Mattoc comp?


AFAIK, no on all three accounts.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Crankyanken said:


> Does anyone know if you can put Mattoc Pro parts (MC2 damper, rebound, IRT) onto the Mattoc comp?


I believe you can't. If I remember correctly, the stanchion inner diameter is different and/or the threading.


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

CS645 said:


> AFAIK, no on all three accounts.





Mac1987 said:


> I believe you can't. If I remember correctly, the stanchion inner diameter is different and/or the threading.


Thank you for the information - I bought a Mattoc Pro _cheap_ that has a mangled dorado foot nut, so I was going to convert the parts over since you can get the comp fork at half the cost. I have parts on order just in case I can actually get it separated from the lowers, but it does not look pretty at all. The dude actually mangled the top cap for the IRT valve as well, he said all he had was a large crescent wrench... I was able to at least get that removed along with MC2 damper. Thankfully, that was not wrenched on at all. Once parts arrive I will attempt to remove the foot nut from the lowers, but I am betting on I will have to take more drastic measures like drilling it out. If y'all want some cringe-worthy pics, just let me know. BTW, if this doesn't work out, I will be selling some of the parts, but keeping others (seals, bushings, etc.) for my own Mattoc. MTC


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Crankyanken said:


> Thank you for the information - I bought a Mattoc Pro _cheap_ that has a mangled dorado foot nut, so I was going to convert the parts over since you can get the comp fork at half the cost. I have parts on order just in case I can actually get it separated from the lowers, but it does not look pretty at all. The dude actually mangled the top cap for the IRT valve as well, he said all he had was a large crescent wrench... I was able to at least get that removed along with MC2 damper. Thankfully, that was not wrenched on at all. Once parts arrive I will attempt to remove the foot nut from the lowers, but I am betting on I will have to take more drastic measures like drilling it out. If y'all want some cringe-worthy pics, just let me know. BTW, if this doesn't work out, I will be selling some of the parts, but keeping others (seals, bushings, etc.) for my own Mattoc. MTC


For emergency foot bolt removal.

Undo the piston from the top and wind-out the valve rod so the shaft foot is hollow. Then tap it to M5, wind in a M5 socket head screw and that will give you enough self-tightening leverage to break it loose.


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

Dougal said:


> For emergency foot bolt removal.
> 
> Undo the piston from the top and wind-out the valve rod so the shaft foot is hollow. Then tap it to M5, wind in a M5 socket head screw and that will give you enough self-tightening leverage to break it loose.


I will try that first - I will need a longer allen wrench to get down in there first. Thanks!


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

@Dougal, that did the trick! I was able to remove the lowers with a 6mm on an extension, all that is left is to tap it to M5. Thank you!


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## Crankyanken (Sep 23, 2019)

SO... I tapped the footnut, but I apparently bought the wrong strength bolt and twisted the head right off of it as it was locking down. I then decided to get a tap with the same pitch as a caliper bolt and drilled out the other bolt. To be honest, I really thought I screwed it up big time when that head spun off. It all worked out in the end, the bolt finally took a hold of the footnut and it broke loose. I will be going back to get another tap to clean out the threads on the lowers, but it looks like a successful job complete! I am probably another week before I get parts from NZ, but happy it turned out well. A 100 bucks in parts and tools, 100 for the fork, I think I got me a really nice back up for the Salsa.

Thanks again Dougal!!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Crankyanken said:


> Does anyone know if you can put Mattoc Pro parts (MC2 damper, rebound, IRT) onto the Mattoc comp?


I believe, if you can save the upper stanchions from the pro, you could save pretty much all the parts from pro, (the upper stanchion ID is not the same diameter, but you should be able to salvage the air piston from the damaged pro compression rod, damping side is not compatible between those at all though, if you don't manage to go through with this, I would be more than happy to check out the mangled IRT for cheap, I don't need IRT, it's not worth the cost for me as I don't feel anything lacking with IVA, but cheaply why not.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*Stupid me*

Nevermind what I said before, too hasty, new wheel has side to side play on the internal axle, needs shimming.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Is the black end bit on the damper shaft something you can replace seperately or is it a whole rebound replacement (pro)? Don't ask!

EDIT: Found it:
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-pro-manitou.html


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

I whant to replace bushings in the lowers my self. I need bushings for 1st gen mattoc expert. Are they all the same size over all the models?
Is it obvious how deep i need to install them? 
It will be my first attempt so apriciate any help and tips.
Thanks.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

@Dougal my mattoc comp is making sound when changing from compression to extension. The sound is a "clack" like some loose and happends, when riding the bike, with the compression knob in any position but more easy with compression applied. With the bike stopped I can only obtain the same "clack" with the compression knob almost closed pushing and releasing it quickly.

What could it be? Low oil heigh in hidraulic circuit? Loose piston?

Thanks

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

thova said:


> I whant to replace bushings in the lowers my self. I need bushings for 1st gen mattoc expert. Are they all the same size over all the models?
> Is it obvious how deep i need to install them?
> It will be my first attempt so apriciate any help and tips.
> Thanks.


I found how to make a diy busching puller and installation tool.

I just whant to know how deep the lower buschings need to be set, in case that the old buschings where not in place.
Thanks


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Question: say the Mattoc would've had separate high and low speed rebound damping which would you prefer compared to the current ratio:

- Low speed faster compared high speed
- same as now
- High speed faster


Just curious if others will have the same preference as I have.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

BikesandWind said:


> My Mattoc comp has developed a similar knock that is noticeable at stand still. What did it end up being. Lachman - did Wiggle cover it under warranty? Cheers


High speed faster so that you can have a bit more usable adjustment range, now it appears that pretty much everyone runs it on the open side.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

Hi guys,

Question about the high speed compression knob being stuck. I'm not sure if I haven't applied enough force to turn it and it was like that ever since I took it out of the box. Is there a way to determine if the knob has been turned max to + / - so I'll know where the opposite side is....


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

KillerKamote said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Question about the high speed compression knob being stuck. I'm not sure if I haven't applied enough force to turn it and it was like that ever since I took it out of the box. Is there a way to determine if the knob has been turned max to + / - so I'll know where the opposite side is....


Close the LSC and see how the fork takes square edge bumps (aka curbs). If the HSC is completely closed, the fork will (almost) spike. If it is completely opened, the shims will open on high speed impacts and the fork will largely absorb the hit.
The alternative is to open the fork and visually check whether the HSC is closed or opened, but this requires removing the damper and changing all oils.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

thanks, will give it a try


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ramdm said:


> @Dougal my mattoc comp is making sound when changing from compression to extension. The sound is a "clack" like some loose and happends, when riding the bike, with the compression knob in any position but more easy with compression applied. With the bike stopped I can only obtain the same "clack" with the compression knob almost closed pushing and releasing it quickly.
> 
> What could it be? Low oil heigh in hidraulic circuit? Loose piston?
> 
> ...


I found the cause of this today. It is the ABS+ compression damper check shim causing the knock on a slightly conical piston face. I think virtually all owners reporting bushing knock actually have this damper knock and the bushings are fine.

To fix it. Remove the ABS+ damper, undo the bottom nut, take off the piston and polish the bottom surface flat using fine emery paper on a dead flat surface.

Clean the piston and reinstall.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Got a little disappointed, thought I was getting a Pro version of the Mattoc because the pic the guy posted said Dorado Air on the leg which according to the Manitou website was the Pro and the Comp has Expert Air spring instead. What gives?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kendunn said:


> Got a little disappointed, thought I was getting a Pro version of the Mattoc because the pic the guy posted said Dorado Air on the leg which according to the Manitou website was the Pro and the Comp has Expert Air spring instead. What gives?


Expert Air is a cheaper to manufacture version of the Dorado air. Works the same. It's a recent addition to the range and only pops up on I think 2020 spec Comp's which have the change in threads.

The 2019 Comp got the Dorado air. I think. I'm not sure when exactly they changed the Comp models from the top pumped ISO air to the Dorado Air. But somewhere after 2017 or so.

Best way to know it's a Pro is by the damper knobs on top. If it's got HSC/LSC and HBO knobs then it's a Pro or Expert.
Expert was only non boost with black lowers and gold stanchions.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Expert Air is a cheaper to manufacture version of the Dorado air. Works the same. It's a recent addition to the range and only pops up on I think 2020 spec Comp's which have the change in threads.
> 
> The 2019 Comp got the Dorado air. I think. I'm not sure when exactly they changed the Comp models from the top pumped ISO air to the Dorado Air. But somewhere after 2017 or so.
> 
> ...


THanks, what happened was I bought a Krampus with a new 29+ fork still in box and saw the sticker and assumed it was Pro after checking their website. You would think that Manitou would update their website. Pretty disappointed when I saw it was Comp, but with 29+ I'm sure I'll be fine with the Comp


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kendunn said:


> THanks, what happened was I bought a Krampus with a new 29+ fork still in box and saw the sticker and assumed it was Pro after checking their website. You would think that Manitou would update their website. Pretty disappointed when I saw it was Comp, but with 29+ I'm sure I'll be fine with the Comp


The website has the Comp with the VTT damper. Which is the new multi-mode based on the ABS+: https://manitoumtb.com/product/mattoc-2/?cat_id=23

Your fork box should have a sticker on the end with model spec and production date.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I found the cause of this today. It is the ABS+ compression damper check shim causing the knock on a slightly conical piston face. I think virtually all owners reporting bushing knock actually have this damper knock and the bushings are fine.
> 
> To fix it. Remove the ABS+ damper, undo the bottom nut, take off the piston and polish the bottom surface flat using fine emery paper on a dead flat surface.
> 
> Clean the piston and reinstall.


Thanks @Dougal

If I'm understanding you, I must sand the down face of the piston.

I have signaled it on the image below. Is that correct?










Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ramdm said:


> Thanks @Dougal
> 
> If I'm understanding you, I must sand the down face of the piston.
> 
> ...


Yes.

I expect Hayes-Manitou will come out with parts to fix it, but polishing the piston flat is the permanent fix and can be done quickly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Mattocs on sale for us customers at the Hayes store.

https://shop.hayesperformance.com/c...-black-160mm-travel-tapered-steerer-15mm-axle


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## SalsaHT (Jan 29, 2018)

New mattoc comp doesn’t feel right. 

My questions are:

What does the red ABS+ knob on the damper side do? 
ABS+ knob more than 3 clicks makes knocking noise while riding. 
90psi seems to make the fork top out quite hard. 
Dorado air, does it have 2 chambers?

Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

SalsaHT said:


> New mattoc comp doesn't feel right.
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> ...


ABS+ knob is your low speed compression damping adjuster.
Knocking is the check shim tapping against the concave side of the ABS+ piston. See a few posts above for how to fix it (polish it flat).
If you have top-out then your pump isn't connecting the positive and negative chambers. Be sure to screw the pump on completely as the valve rod connects the chambers.

Yes Dorado air has positive and negative chambers. It can have three chambers with IRT installed.


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## SalsaHT (Jan 29, 2018)

Thanks!! 

I have the M-IVR on the air side. 

The fork I have came on a RSD sergeant V3

I’ll try a different pump to see it that helps.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

I'm servicing my Mattoc Comp which is leaking bath oil on both sides into the air chamber and damper. I'm wondering if the seal head on the air side unscrews? (Red circle) There must be an o-ring in there somewhere but I'm not wanting to put any more force to unscrew it in case it doesn't. Is this where the 10x3mm o-ring goes that was mentioned earlier in the thread?

Anyone know what size the damper seal is? (Green circle) Seems the shaft is 12.7mm.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

aiv23 said:


> I'm servicing my Mattoc Comp which is leaking bath oil on both sides into the air chamber and damper. I'm wondering if the seal head on the air side unscrews? (Red circle) There must be an o-ring in there somewhere but I'm not wanting to put any more force to unscrew it in case it doesn't. Is this where the 10x3mm o-ring goes that was mentioned earlier in the thread?
> 
> Anyone know what size the damper seal is? (Green circle) Seems the shaft is 12.7mm.
> 
> View attachment 1297959


With shaft clamps, you can remove the foot bolts and slide the seal heads off to get to the internal seals. Remove the silver ring and the detent balls and springs from the foot nut prior to removing them.

10x3 works on the air side, but its a tight fit. I don't recall the damper side size off the top of my head.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Thanks Mullen, my shaft clamp is in the mail. I guess I'll have to wait on ordering the seals until then. I have the manitou mattoc seal kit but nothing in there looks like it's 12.7mm internal diameter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aiv23 said:


> I'm servicing my Mattoc Comp which is leaking bath oil on both sides into the air chamber and damper. I'm wondering if the seal head on the air side unscrews? (Red circle) There must be an o-ring in there somewhere but I'm not wanting to put any more force to unscrew it in case it doesn't. Is this where the 10x3mm o-ring goes that was mentioned earlier in the thread?
> 
> Anyone know what size the damper seal is? (Green circle) Seems the shaft is 12.7mm.
> 
> View attachment 1297959


Air side will be a -110 quad-ring. Replacing that with a 10x3mm oring (you need to remove the backup ring to fit) gives a tighter seal.

Damper side is a lip seal built into the cap. I haven't tried to replace one before. They generally last a very long time, just treat the oil migration as a maintenance timer.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Thanks Dougal. I will leave the damper side in that case. For the air side, do I need to unscrew the red bit circled to change the o-ring? Can't see any seal in the current state and I'm not sure what you mean by backup ring.


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## RoboS (Aug 16, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Air side will be a -110 quad-ring. Replacing that with a 10x3mm oring (you need to remove the backup ring to fit) gives a tighter seal.
> 
> Damper side is a lip seal built into the cap. I haven't tried to replace one before. They generally last a very long time, just treat the oil migration as a maintenance timer.


I can confirm that 10x3 oring fits both sides. Air side was tight, damper side was a perfect fit on Mattoc Pro

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aiv23 said:


> Thanks Dougal. I will leave the damper side in that case. For the air side, do I need to unscrew the red bit circled to change the o-ring? Can't see any seal in the current state and I'm not sure what you mean by backup ring.


I take the air piston off to change the end-cap seal. You've just got to be careful sliding the cap back on over the square edge of the shaft.



RoboS said:


> I can confirm that 10x3 oring fits both sides. Air side was tight, damper side was a perfect fit on Mattoc Pro
> 
> Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk


Yes Pro is 10mm shafts both sides. Expert and Comp used a 1/2" (12.7mm) damper shaft with a different seal.


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Dougal said:


> I take the air piston off to change the end-cap seal. You've just got to be careful sliding the cap back on over the square edge of the shaft.
> 
> Thanks Dougal, I think I figured it all out. There was a 10x3 o-ring in the Mattoc seal kit so I used that on the air shaft. Looking forward to riding again tomorrow and seeing how it holds up.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

Dougal said:


> The website has the Comp with the VTT damper. Which is the new multi-mode based on the ABS+: https://manitoumtb.com/product/mattoc-2/?cat_id=23
> 
> Your fork box should have a sticker on the end with model spec and production date.


Hello,
Does anyone have more info on the VTT damper in the newer comps? I just bought my wife a new Mastodon comp 120mm and it did not come with the ABS+ / Red cap that I was expecting. The cap is thinner and Black with 3 positions rather than several which sounds like the VTT Dougal describes. Any thoughts on this damper vs the ABS+ and can the older top-cap be used for finer adjustments? I don't see any info on the Manitou Website. I asked a similar question in the Mastodon thread however there's not as much traffic as here.
Thank you!


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Aresab said:


> Hello,
> Does anyone have more info on the VTT damper in the newer comps? I just bought my wife a new Mastodon comp 120mm and it did not come with the ABS+ / Red cap that I was expecting. The cap is thinner and Black with 3 positions rather than several which sounds like the VTT Dougal describes. Any thoughts on this damper vs the ABS+ and can the older top-cap be used for finer adjustments? I don't see any info on the Manitou Website. I asked a similar question in the Mastodon thread however there's not as much traffic as here.
> Thank you!


I spent a few months on it when it was in development. Its pretty good, just not as adjustable as the ABS+

It has 3 flow paths for oil and works like this:

Full open mode has a oil LSC circuit and HSC shim stack that flow oil. Its very supple in this mode.

In the middle setting, a plunger is pushed down and blocks flow through the low speed circuit and runs only through the HSC shim stack. The main shim stack is linear (not preloaded) so it can flow oil pretty quickly with no real platform. This is supportive without being too harsh. You do lose some small bump sensitivity though. I used this setting most of the time.

The lock out setting drops the plunger further and blocks flow to the main HSC shim stack. It redirects it to a secondary shim circuit that is highly preloaded that gives a very firm lock out. I personally never needed the lock out, but some people love having it.

Overall, its a solid damper. I like the abs+ better because its more adjustable and I don't care about the lock out. I did make a modification to one of my vvt dampers I was testing that made it a little better. It involves using a file to flatten a small part of the plunger to allow a little bit of oil to flow through the low speed circuit in the "trail" setting. This allowed for increased support with better small bump sensitivity. As more VTT dampers make their way to the public, I may post how to do it on here. That assumes enough people complain about the stock damper to justify it.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> I spent a few months on it when it was in development. Its pretty good, just not as adjustable as the ABS+
> 
> It has 3 flow paths for oil and works like this:
> 
> ...


Great info, thank you. I've added it to my post in the Mastodon thread. 
Another question, I believe my Mastodon Pro does not have HBO like my Mattoc, neither did the ABS+ based comp (in the Mastodon but not sure of the Mattoc). Does the VTT based damper in either the Mattoc or the Mastodon retain the HBO?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Aresab said:


> Great info, thank you. I've added it to my post in the Mastodon thread.
> Another question, I believe my Mastodon Pro does not have HBO like my Mattoc, neither did the ABS+ based comp (in the Mastodon but not sure of the Mattoc). Does the VTT based damper in either the Mattoc or the Mastodon retain the HBO?


Good question. Mastodons do not have HBO, test riders found it to be a unnecessary feature withe the riding fat bikes see. The Mattocs with abs+ do have HBO, but I'm not sure about the VTT Mattocs. I will look into it and report back on what went to production. (My versions did not, but I know versions with HBO existed during the testing phase)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Aresab said:


> Great info, thank you. I've added it to my post in the Mastodon thread.
> Another question, I believe my Mastodon Pro does not have HBO like my Mattoc, neither did the ABS+ based comp (in the Mastodon but not sure of the Mattoc). Does the VTT based damper in either the Mattoc or the Mastodon retain the HBO?


MY18 has VTT with HBO

MY19 does not have HBO


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## celstark (Jul 20, 2018)

I just got a Mattoc Pro a few weeks ago, but noticed the date of manufacture is 2017/5/11. So, it’s over 2 years out. Have I missed any updates on it? Anything to know?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

celstark said:


> I just got a Mattoc Pro a few weeks ago, but noticed the date of manufacture is 2017/5/11. So, it's over 2 years out. Have I missed any updates on it? Anything to know?


Have a look here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/forks/find-your-fork/manitou-mattoc

Externally IRT is the big giveaway for the Mattoc 3. All updates are backwards compatible.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

*2016 mattoc expert bottoming out*

I'm wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what might be causing my forks to bottom out before I strip them down. I recently gave them a full service as they gave up the ghost on an uplift day. I lost most of my travel and wouldn't even rebound with the wheel off the ground. They were feeling great after the service but now after 7 or 8 rides this has happened.

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

Regards

Martyn


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## ColinL (Feb 9, 2012)

Derg33 said:


> I'm wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what might be causing my forks to bottom out before I strip them down. I recently gave them a full service as they gave up the ghost on an uplift day. I lost most of my travel and wouldn't even rebound with the wheel off the ground. They were feeling great after the service but now after 7 or 8 rides this has happened.
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


well, first I would check the air pressure in the main chamber as well as the IRT if equipped. air pressure causes rebound - the rebound valve in the damper simply resists it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Derg33 said:


> I'm wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what might be causing my forks to bottom out before I strip them down. I recently gave them a full service as they gave up the ghost on an uplift day. I lost most of my travel and wouldn't even rebound with the wheel off the ground. They were feeling great after the service but now after 7 or 8 rides this has happened.
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Hard bottom-out or just not getting full travel?

Not getting full travel is usually oil level too high in the damper. The fork hanging down in travel suggests worn/torn air spring seals which can happen on reassembly. There have been a couple of cases of hydraulic lock from too much oil damaging the damper on a hard compression.


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## celstark (Jul 20, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Have a look here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/forks/find-your-fork/manitou-mattoc
> 
> Externally IRT is the big giveaway for the Mattoc 3. All updates are backwards compatible.


Thanks - I've got the IRT and the mudguard. I'm still about 10 pages away from going through this whole thread to get fully up to speed on all things Mattoc. Thanks for all you've done for us Dougal!

FWIW, the only thing I noticed having pulled it apart a few times and ridden it a half dozen was that the lowers didn't drain more than a few drops. Cleaned, wiped, and filled with their semi-bath (had I gotten through more, I'd have just used my Fox gold) with 7mL per leg and foam rings soaked / wipers hit with Slickoleum.


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Hard bottom-out or just not getting full travel?
> 
> Not getting full travel is usually oil level too high in the damper. The fork hanging down in travel suggests worn/torn air spring seals which can happen on reassembly. There have been a couple of cases of hydraulic lock from too much oil damaging the damper on a hard compression.


Hard bottom out is how I'd describe it and I've never had these forks bottom out before. I did measure the oil level the same way I always have with a tool I made. Pretty sure I was careful enough on reassembly not to damage the seals but the forks sitting low in their travel was before I serviced them that doesn't seem to be a problem now just the bottoming out.

Are the upgraded dampers still available for my forks? Maybe I might just try another damper service and if that doesn't work get the pro damper.

Regards

Martyn


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## otsdr (Nov 15, 2009)

Maybe you measured the oil level and fitted the compression assy with the rebound rod slightly inserted - which would explain both the hard bottom-out (due to low oil level) and the forks sitting low in the travel (the rod would pull a vacuum when fully extended).


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Hello, first time posting here. I was just wondering if anyone could help be determine the fork offset for a 2019 Mattoc Pro 27.5 'Boost' fork? Here is a URL to the fork in question: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...MoBggTgZoAmCoaoQfEDAk9bI2ytWhEpxoC3RsQAvD_BwE

I emailed Manitou and a tech informed me that the 'Boost' 27.5 model has a 48mm offset, but this seems to conflict with the information given on their own website which (as far as I can tell) lists both the 27.5 BOOST and NON-BOOST model as both having a 44mm offset. The 48mm offset appears to be solely allocated to the 27.5 PLUS version of the fork. 
Would really appreciate it if someone could confirm my surmising. Thanks.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

will1994 said:


> Hello, first time posting here. I was just wondering if anyone could help be determine the fork offset for a 2019 Mattoc Pro 27.5 'Boost' fork? Here is a URL to the fork in question: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...MoBggTgZoAmCoaoQfEDAk9bI2ytWhEpxoC3RsQAvD_BwE
> 
> I emailed Manitou and a tech informed me that the 'Boost' 27.5 model has a 48mm offset, but this seems to conflict with the information given on their own website which (as far as I can tell) lists both the 27.5 BOOST and NON-BOOST model as both having a 44mm offset. The 48mm offset appears to be solely allocated to the 27.5 PLUS version of the fork.
> Would really appreciate it if someone could confirm my surmising. Thanks.


You are correct, 44mm for a 27.5.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Many thanks Mullen.


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## weeblebiker (Oct 15, 2018)

Bikewagon has a 160mm 27.5 mattoc pro listed for $399. i'm considering getting and running a 26" wheel. it is listed as a '19. does the 27" forks come with the hbo bit and removable spacer to convert to 170mm 26"?
I'm upgrading from a fox 32 100-140 talas RLC that I could never get set up to my liking. all the "adjustments" seemed to be bandaids to make it a not as crappy air fork. this is after a long break from mountain biking. before that I ran a 130mm z1 bomber that felt great once was set up with slightly thicker oil and a little higher oil level . servicing was dead simple drain and fill, never messed with it otherwise.
I'm of the camp that suspension is for the first and last portion of travel movement and the majority of travel is arms and legs. I like my suspension to be the same all the time, not making adjustments to it for different trails or temperature.

from reading through the entire thread I'm concerned the mattoc is going to require a lot of fiddling with throughout the season to keep it running well and that, maybe this is the new normal for mountain bike suspension?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I don't know where you're from, but I have a spare conversion kit here in Poland, I'm running a 27.5 wheel so it's not needed. As for setup, it's not hard really, you have more options than some give you, but really, it's only 5 clicks of high and low speed compression each, it works well enough without the dials and you'll know what you want to achieve once you start fiddling with them (as in better big hit stability- add high speed, better support, add low speed etc.), HBO just set at 2 clicks from fully closed and you'll be golden


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I went to Saalbach Hinterglemm and Leogang last year and only adjusted the LSC on very long (boring) fireroad climbs. All technical climbing, flow trail, root trails and downhill tracks were done on the same settings. Once you find the sweet spot for your type of riding, you don't need to adjust very often. I had a Fox 32 Talas RLC 150 before and had to adjust air pressure, compression and rebound all the time. Even though the Mattoc Pro has way more adjustments, I only have to use LSC on the go. Air pressure, HSC, rebound and HBO are set once and only reset after a service, which I do once a year. The service is easier and quicker than with my Fox 34 Performance GRIP 160.

If you want the absolute 100% best performance for a specific trail, it is best to adjust everything. However, because of the performance of the air spring with IRT (get it if it doesn't come with the fork!), you can adjust your fork for your style of riding and trails (with some reserve for the heavier stuff) and get very good performance on other trails. Adjusting for larger drops and jumps doesn't mean you get bucked of your bike on lower speed root trails (like on most Fox forks).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mac1987 said:


> I went to Saalbach Hinterglemm and Leogang last year and only adjusted the LSC on very long (boring) fireroad climbs. All technical climbing, flow trail, root trails and downhill tracks were done on the same settings. Once you find the sweet spot for your type of riding, you don't need to adjust very often. I had a Fox 32 Talas RLC 150 before and had to adjust air pressure, compression and rebound all the time. Even though the Mattoc Pro has way more adjustments, I only have to use LSC on the go. Air pressure, HSC, rebound and HBO are set once and only reset after a service, which I do once a year. The service is easier and quicker than with my Fox 34 Performance GRIP 160.
> 
> If you want the absolute 100% best performance for a specific trail, it is best to adjust everything. However, because of the performance of the air spring with IRT (get it if it doesn't come with the fork!), you can adjust your fork for your style of riding and trails (with some reserve for the heavier stuff) and get very good performance on other trails. Adjusting for larger drops and jumps doesn't mean you get bucked of your bike on lower speed root trails (like on most Fox forks).


Exactly this. To reinforce how a correct setup behaves.

How often do you feel the need to change your car suspension rebound or spring-rate?


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## kartracer (Apr 10, 2015)

Hi there experts ... a few questions regarding lowers:
Do the Mattoc Pro (27.5+/29 boost) and Magnum share the same lowers? If not, what are the differences?
Also, any differences between 2017 and 2018/19 lowers? 
When did they begin coming with the threaded holes for the integrated mud guard?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kartracer said:


> Hi there experts ... a few questions regarding lowers:
> Do the Mattoc Pro (27.5+/29 boost) and Magnum share the same lowers? If not, what are the differences?
> Also, any differences between 2017 and 2018/19 lowers?
> When did they begin coming with the threaded holes for the integrated mud guard?


Yes 27+/29 is the same casting for Magnum and Mattoc. Neither of those got the mud-guard mounts.
The mud-guard mounts are only on the boost but not plus forks. So Mattoc Boost, Machete J-unit and Mezzer.


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## weeblebiker (Oct 15, 2018)

Mac1987 said:


> However, because of the performance of the air spring with IRT (get it if it doesn't come with the fork!), you can adjust your fork for your style of riding and trails (with some reserve for the heavier stuff) and get very good performance on other trails. Adjusting for larger drops and jumps doesn't mean you get bucked of your bike on lower speed root trails (like on most Fox forks).


This is good to here about the mattoc 
My experience with the fox is exactly this-small bump and root compliance meant it collapsed through mid stroke and bottomed hard after drop offs and good larger hit compliance meant stiff over roots. I just couldn't understand how a 10 year newer high end fork from a reputable suspension company that weighed the same as my heavy '99 fork could perform so poorly compared to it :madman:. 
but then again I never understood how lots of sag and 100% travel usage every ride and "pedal platform" became mandatory suspension setup standards.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Update on previous post: Just bought a new Mattoc Pro Boost from CRC for £360. I'm astounded that at this price, for the 2019 'Boost' version with IRT as well as the updates to the crown and brace design, they don't appear to have managed to sell many at all. Stock levels don't appear to have altered since I first saw the offer in early December. Anyway it will be replacing a Mattoc Expert (140mm) I've had installed on my Stanton Switchback hardtail for the last 6 years. 

The expert has been an exceptional fork in its own right and has had (notwithstanding a brief initial difficulty with the poppet valve protrusion) zero reliability issues with only semi-regular servicing (maybe once every 10-12 months. It will continue to be used on my Dads Ragley Blue Pig. The one reservation I do have in my praise for the original Mattoc is that - without either an IVA or IRT installed - I've had to run a fairly high pressure (67 PSI) for my weight (around 76kg) to maintain the mid-stroke support so important when riding a hardtail in particular. This appears to have somewhat compromised the forks small bump sensitivity and I am hopeful that this one sub-optimal performance aspect will be improved by the IRT on the new fork. 

Before I sign off I just have to say that this thread has been tremendously useful over the years and has been instrumental in informing my decision to stay with Manitou (regardless of the obvious price saving) rather than return to one of the 'big 2' or a more exotic offering from DVO, Ohlins, Cane Creek etc. Dougal and Mullen in particular have been exceptionally punctilious in their contributions, so thank you very much indeed.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

If you liked a Mattoc without IRT, you're going to love one with IRT. After the right setup, it's like having your cake and eating it too. Without IRT, my Mattoc had better small bump compliance and equal large hit reserves as my Fox 34 GRIP Performance. With IRT, it has far better small bump compliance, more midstroke support and even slightly better large hit handling than the Fox that was tuned specifically for the latter and compromised on small bump. 
Square edge and repeated hit performance has always been miles better on the Mattoc.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Mattocs' arrived today and amazingly enough CRC's advert appears to have been accurate; they _are _actually a 2019 (DoM Sept 2019) Mattoc Pro Boost with IRT and the updated brace design. Haven't fitted them as yet but very much looking forward to playing about with the IRT chamber to see if a better balance of small bump sensitivity vs mid stroke support can be achieved vis a vis my old Mattoc Expert without IRT or IVA.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

*Rebound knob stuck*

Apologies for the double post but if anyone with any experience with Manitou's MC2 damper is reading this I need a bit of help. Just finished adjusting the travel on my new Pro Boost and upon reassembly noticed that the rebound knob is now completely jammed. Prior to my (obviously hamfisted) dissasembly of the fork the rebound was functioning perfectly well, so it isn't a manufacturing error. Any suggestions as to what I've done and how to remedy it? Thank you to anyone who responds.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

How does the Mattoc Pro 3 compare to a Fox 34 Grip or Fit4?

Weight wise the Mattoc is quite a bit heavier, is it worth the weight? I’m 200#, ride hard, fork is going on a Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol, probably 130, maybe 140.

I have a Mezzer, are they similar in damping, ie same design?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

will1994 said:


> Apologies for the double post but if anyone with any experience with Manitou's MC2 damper is reading this I need a bit of help. Just finished adjusting the travel on my new Pro Boost and upon reassembly noticed that the rebound knob is now completely jammed. Prior to my (obviously hamfisted) dissasembly of the fork the rebound was functioning perfectly well, so it isn't a manufacturing error. Any suggestions as to what I've done and how to remedy it? Thank you to anyone who responds.


You probably jammed it when unscrewing the knob to remove the lowers or installing the screw when putting everything back together. I did that once and make sure to hold the knob when removing the screws now.
Is the rebound full slow or fast? Put a rag around the knob and use pliers to turn it the other way. If it isn't full fast or slow, something else is wrong.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does the Mattoc Pro 3 compare to a Fox 34 Grip or Fit4?
> 
> Weight wise the Mattoc is quite a bit heavier, is it worth the weight? I'm 200#, ride hard, fork is going on a Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol, probably 130, maybe 140.
> 
> I have a Mezzer, are they similar in damping, ie same design?


My bike came stock with a Fox 34 Performance GRIP 160 and is updated with a Mattoc Pro (first model) with IRT. I don't notice the increase in weight, but like I mentioned earlier, the Mattoc can be adjusted to at the same time be both more compliant on small bumps, have better bottom out resistance and is always better with square edge and repeated hits. For me, it's definitely worth it. I haven't ridden a Mezzer yes, so can't comment on the differences or similarities.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does the Mattoc Pro 3 compare to a Fox 34 Grip or Fit4?
> 
> Weight wise the Mattoc is quite a bit heavier, is it worth the weight? I'm 200#, ride hard, fork is going on a Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol, probably 130, maybe 140.
> 
> I have a Mezzer, are they similar in damping, ie same design?


Mattoc and Mezzer dampers are somewhat similar. Both use the same concepts. The two biggest differences are:

the mezzer damper is a sealed cartridge, and the mattoc uses cartridge rebound (to save weight by lowering oil volume) with in leg compression damper. There is a foam compensator in the mattoc that keeps the volume of air that sits above the damper as small as possible.

The other big difference is how the HSC adjuster functions. In the mattoc, adding HSC adds physical preload to the HSC shim stack. In the Mezzer, the HSC adjuster adds pressure to a spring that pushes on the OD of the HSC shim stack, which works better for longer travel applications.

I haven't looked at the weights of the recent 34 (non stepcast) forks. The 27.5+/29 version being 200+ grams heavier than the 27.5 version always surprised me, and make me question how accurate the weights are. All my bikes are 27.5 so I never had a chance to measure. Either way, IRT alone is worth the weight penalty in my opinion, but I'm biased. I struggle hard to when I have to single positive air chamber forks now.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does the Mattoc Pro 3 compare to a Fox 34 Grip or Fit4?
> 
> Weight wise the Mattoc is quite a bit heavier, is it worth the weight? I'm 200#, ride hard, fork is going on a Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol, probably 130, maybe 140.
> 
> I have a Mezzer, are they similar in damping, ie same design?


The Mattoc is stiffer, better damped, better sprung and won't start creaking on you.

I haven't ridden the Grip F34 on proper trails, but the FIT4 I do not like at all.

The Mattoc damper has a very different feel to the Mezzer. The Mattoc has a big LSC circuit so big difference between open and closed throughout the speed range. The Mezzer has a tight LSC circuit so it chokes off and forces more oil through HSC at higher speeds even if the LSC adjuster is more open.

Air spring wise the Mattoc is less progressive, so you'll find yourself running higher air pressures vs Mezzer. It has a smaller negative chamber so feels a bit firmer off the top.


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## celstark (Jul 20, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> How does the Mattoc Pro 3 compare to a Fox 34 Grip or Fit4?
> 
> Weight wise the Mattoc is quite a bit heavier, is it worth the weight? I'm 200#, ride hard, fork is going on a Guerilla Gravity Trail Pistol, probably 130, maybe 140.
> 
> I have a Mezzer, are they similar in damping, ie same design?


I just upgraded from a Fox 34 GRIP to the Mattoc Pro w/IRT. When I looked at the weights, the Fox 34 Performance was 1796g and the Mattoc Pro was 1809g -- hardly a difference. The non-Pro adds ~190g more.

As for worth it or not? 100% worth it. I could never get the 34 GRIP to handle the rough chatter well and be supple. I've had a dozen or so rides on the Mattoc and it's so much better in these respects. I'm less fatigued, more confident, in more control, and faster. The local trails are in rougher shape at the moment (our rains do that) and I'm still setting PRs on downhills I've done many times on the Fox 34.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Mac1987 said:


> You probably jammed it when unscrewing the knob to remove the lowers or installing the screw when putting everything back together. I did that once and make sure to hold the knob when removing the screws now.
> Is the rebound full slow or fast? Put a rag around the knob and use pliers to turn it the other way. If it isn't full fast or slow, something else is wrong.


You were right, I plucked up the courage to use a bit more force and it's once again turning freely. Thanks


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## celstark (Jul 20, 2018)

celstark said:


> I just upgraded from a Fox 34 GRIP to the Mattoc Pro w/IRT. When I looked at the weights, the Fox 34 Performance was 1796g and the Mattoc Pro was 1809g -- hardly a difference. The non-Pro adds ~190g more.
> .


Forgot that I weighed my actual units when I did the swap. The Fox 34 Performance GRIP 27.5" Boost in 150 mm was 1860 g. The Mattoc Pro in 27.5" Boost was 1820 g. Now, it was a bit light on the oil in the lowers, so I won't swear it's actually 40 g lighter than the Fox, but it's clearly not far heavier.

Craig


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks guys, I think I’ll get one, price is much better than Fox, resale might not be as good but maybe I won’t sell it 🙄


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Hey guys - following the mezzer thread as well and I see that storing the bikes vertically along the wall ( so the fork is parallel with the ground) may not be a good idea for oil migration? Is this a potential problem for the mattoc as well? Reason I ask is I have started to store my bike rack affixed to my garage and the bikes sitting like that. 3 of em have mattocs and I don't want to create issues for myself......

Thanks


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I have been storing my bike on the wall with the front wheel up and haven't noticed any ill effects.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Hey guys - following the mezzer thread as well and I see that storing the bikes vertically along the wall ( so the fork is parallel with the ground) may not be a good idea for oil migration? Is this a potential problem for the mattoc as well? Reason I ask is I have started to store my bike rack affixed to my garage and the bikes sitting like that. 3 of em have mattocs and I don't want to create issues for myself......
> 
> Thanks


No problem at all.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

If anything, it would be beneficial- keeps the seals lubed


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

006_007 said:


> Hey guys - following the mezzer thread as well and I see that storing the bikes vertically along the wall ( so the fork is parallel with the ground) may not be a good idea for oil migration? Is this a potential problem for the mattoc as well?


As noted, definitely not a problem, and the Mattoc damper is constructed differently than the Mezzer. It would be impossible for the oil migration problem some people are reporting with the Mezzer to happen to a Mattoc. The Mezzer has a separate damper cartridge assembly that can be removed intact while the Mattoc integrates the damper into the stanchion.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Curveball said:


> The initial ride on the mellow local trails indicates that it's a pretty nice fork (Comp). I have no doubt that it's significantly better than the RockShox forks in this price range.


Well, after several months of riding trails, I have a much better idea of the performance. This doesn't feel like a "budget" fork at all. It tracks great and is really smooth on hard impacts. Small roots and rocks just disappear. If this is how well the Comp works, then I'd bet the Pro to be really something. I doubt that any other fork could compete at the same price point.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, I finally was bothered enough to take apart the poppet valve, now everything makes sense- the inconsistent air leaking to the negative chamber, there was a piece of fibre stuck in the valve -_- 
Btw. to take it apart I didn't use any clamp blocks etc. just degreased the shaft properly and wrapped a tube around it, was able to hold it strong enough just with my left hand.
PS. it doesn't stop amazing me how well it is sealed from the outside, it's been officially a year since I made a full service (been in there 3 times though, not changing or adding oil) and the lower leg oil is still there and perfectly clean, the grease I applied on the dust seals is clean too for that matter! Granted, Ive ridden only around 600 real km (100 in the mountains) on this bike, but still, I've seen RS and Fox suspension, even before the switch to low friction seals, dirty and dry inside after a similar amount of time.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Is a new Mattoc Pro on the horizon? I know they are slightly revising the Mcleod with some new internal parts from the Mara.

Just hoping for a lighter 29" 120-140mm fork. 

Also, is the ABS tuning guide in mullen's signature, the one for this fork?


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

jdang307 said:


> Also, is the ABS tuning guide in mullen's signature, the one for this fork?


I believe it's based on the Minute, but the same principles apply.


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

celstark said:


> I just upgraded from a Fox 34 GRIP to the Mattoc Pro w/IRT. When I looked at the weights, the Fox 34 Performance was 1796g and the Mattoc Pro was 1809g -- hardly a difference. The non-Pro adds ~190g more.
> 
> As for worth it or not? 100% worth it. I could never get the 34 GRIP to handle the rough chatter well and be supple. I've had a dozen or so rides on the Mattoc and it's so much better in these respects. I'm less fatigued, more confident, in more control, and faster. The local trails are in rougher shape at the moment (our rains do that) and I'm still setting PRs on downhills I've done many times on the Fox 34.


Is this 27.5 or 29? If 29 that's pretty light.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> Is a new Mattoc Pro on the horizon? I know they are slightly revising the Mcleod with some new internal parts from the Mara.
> 
> Just hoping for a lighter 29" 120-140mm fork.
> 
> Also, is the ABS tuning guide in mullen's signature, the one for this fork?


The ABS+ pistons and tuning guide are applicable for any ABS+ fork. From the R7 through to the Mattoc and Mastodon Comp forks. They all use 1/2" damper shafts and the same piston geometry.
How's that for consistency? Keeping the same functionality and tuning system for a whole decade over multiple fork models!

I'm not allowed to answer your other questions.......


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

Dougal said:


> The ABS+ pistons and tuning guide are applicable for any ABS+ fork. From the R7 through to the Mattoc and Mastodon Comp forks. They all use 1/2" damper shafts and the same piston geometry.
> How's that for consistency? Keeping the same functionality and tuning system for a whole decade over multiple fork models!
> 
> I'm not allowed to answer your other questions.......


Which answers my question  Oh man I hope it's not a long wait. Might just deal with the stock fox 34 for now...


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

jdang307 said:


> Is a new Mattoc Pro on the horizon? I know they are slightly revising the Mcleod with some new internal parts from the Mara.
> 
> Just hoping for a lighter 29" 120-140mm fork.
> 
> Also, is the ABS tuning guide in mullen's signature, the one for this fork?


Oh please advise on. The revised McLeod - I am going to be opening mine soon to add the king can and if there is other stuff I should add I will wait as I am still skiing for a few more months....


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

006_007 said:


> Oh please advise on. The revised McLeod - I am going to be opening mine soon to add the king can and if there is other stuff I should add I will wait as I am still skiing for a few more months....


In the Mcleod threat it was mentioned they will be implementing something from the Mara. I don't know the name of the actual thing, flexible IFP or poppet or something.


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## celstark (Jul 20, 2018)

27.5” jdang307


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

*2016 Mattocs - Cracked Post Mounts*

Hi Guys,

Has anyone else noticed cracks appearing on their mattoc's post mounts?
I don't know whether I have had a crash or I have been over tightening them and they have fatigued over time.

I have emailed Manitou about it but I am waiting for a response from the EU team. I don't expect Manitou to do much as there well out of warranty, I'm hoping they will have old-non boost lowers in stock which I can purchase off them.

Top Post has Bolt in it, Bottom has no bolt.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xaJ2743sp9euE5g19

Cheers
Alec


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## misterdun (May 7, 2012)

Wow this is a long thread. I have always thought that there was only RS and Fox in the world of forks so new to the Manitou offering. I am liking the comments and reviews for the Mattoc Pro but confused as to the versions ie Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3. Is something like this a Pro, how to tell the difference? https://www.wiggle.co.uk/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost-1/

Matt


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

misterdun said:


> Wow this is a long thread. I have always thought that there was only RS and Fox in the world of forks so new to the Manitou offering. I am liking the comments and reviews for the Mattoc Pro but confused as to the versions ie Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3. Is something like this a Pro, how to tell the difference? https://www.wiggle.co.uk/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost-1/
> 
> Matt


The number labels have to do with the version. When listed online, they likely won't have numbers listed. Basically, it goes like this: (rough estimates on time frames)

Pro- original Mattoc from 2014-15

Pro 2- 2015-17 Adds IVA (system that allows you to add spring progression, kinda like tokens) and low friction seals. IRT a available aftermarket

Pro 3 -2018 to present. Boost spacing, IRT stock, hexlock axle stock. 27.5 boost version gets a larger arch that adds stiffness. Integrated fender.

There are other changes made over the years as well, but those are the main things. The picture in your link shows a pro 3.


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## misterdun (May 7, 2012)

Awesome, thanks for the info.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Never had such issue, you've either overtightened the mount (chich I doubt would cause this type of issue) or you left one of the bolts too loose, allowing side loading of the bolt, when everything is properly installed, it's the flat surface that holds everything in its place, not the bolt.
@shlec


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

piciu256 said:


> Never had such issue, you've either overtightened the mount (chich I doubt would cause this type of issue) or you left one of the bolts too loose, allowing side loading of the bolt, when everything is properly installed, it's the flat surface that holds everything in its place, not the bolt.
> @shlec


Yeah I think i agree, over-tightening i would expect the threads to strip not crack the lowers. I can't think of a time that i have ridden with a completely loose caliper. however you might be right on the one bolt but that doesn't explain why its on both post mounts, unless my mechanic skills are really that poo that i have messed up on two occasions! Do you think if the bolts aren't torqued up enough i.e too little preload, gapping between the caliper and post mount could occur under heavy braking, maybe that would cause it?

Btw the taped holes aren't quite central to the postmount legs, they are slightly closer (approx 0.5-1mm) to the disc side which is the side the cracks have appeared. Are yours like this?

They have done a fair amount of mileage probably around 3000 miles, so they are well used but are still running good.

I'm just interested to see if anyone else has had this issue. From googling i cant find anyone else with this. Tbf its not the usual place to check for a crack so people might not notice. I'm still going to ride them like this, if my front brake fails still got my back one


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Nevermind


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

Hi Guys,

Regarding the semi bath oil that can be use on our forks. Any one tried or heard of STP 5W40, can this be used as semi bath for the stanchions? 

Description
STP 5W-40 EURO FS 6/1Q
Inspection Information Test Method Typical Value
Gravity, �API ASTM D287 34.83
Specific Gravity @ 60�F (15.6�C) ASTM D4052 0.8507
Viscosity @ 40�C, cSt ASTM D445 76.77
Viscosity @ 100�C, cSt ASTM D445 12.95


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Semi bath oil viscosity etc. is not important really, all that matters is for the oil to be nice and slick, some oils are more slippery than others, I found Valvoline motor oil to be similar to the sample of Fox Gold I have, at least doing the finger test, it's different viscosity though, but that might be a plus for winter, as in the cold the thick oil can sometimes be too thick.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

thanks man


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*Poppet valve still losing air*

My issue concerning pressure getting to the negative chamber still persists, I filled the air chamber with oil, confirming the guilt of letting air through is the poppet valve, the plunger is retracting properly, it's portruding exactly 1mm as it should, the chambers are equalising properly with pump connected, there is no sudden loss of pressure, just gradual suck down of the fork, it takes just a few hardish bottom outs to lose 5-10mm, I confirmed its the valves fault after finding the valve shaft filled with oil upon doing a few hard compressions, it was empty before since I pumped it up upside down.


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## shmity (Oct 6, 2015)

piciu256 said:


> My issue concerning pressure getting to the negative chamber still persists, I filled the air chamber with oil, confirming the guilt of letting air through is the poppet valve, the plunger is retracting properly, it's portruding exactly 1mm as it should, the chambers are equalising properly with pump connected, there is no sudden loss of pressure, just gradual suck down of the fork, it takes just a few hardish bottom outs to lose 5-10mm, I confirmed its the valves fault after finding the valve shaft filled with oil upon doing a few hard compressions, it was empty before since I pumped it up upside down.


You have probably already done so but check the condition of the airspring shaft and the bush it slides through. I had a similar issue on my dorado and id some how managed to put a small score on the airshaft while servicing the fork, it was allowing air migration between the two chambers. Mine was particularly bad because id also managed to do it right at the sag point.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> My issue concerning pressure getting to the negative chamber still persists, I filled the air chamber with oil, confirming the guilt of letting air through is the poppet valve, the plunger is retracting properly, it's portruding exactly 1mm as it should, the chambers are equalising properly with pump connected, there is no sudden loss of pressure, just gradual suck down of the fork, it takes just a few hardish bottom outs to lose 5-10mm, I confirmed its the valves fault after finding the valve shaft filled with oil upon doing a few hard compressions, it was empty before since I pumped it up upside down.


If you are losing fork height that suggests leakage of the main air seal. Either around the outer seal or through the poppet internally.

Take the piston out and carefully check the seal and groove condition. Change the poppet and piston seals.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

For better or worse, my cylinder wall is perfect, no scratches, inspected with a strong inspection light, I disassembled the fork once again (worried I'll damage the footnut if I keep doing it 🙄 ) and bodged an adapter to pressurise the compression shaft with the piston removed (Manitou IFP tool wrapped in Teflon tape of all things  ) and it definitely is leaking air through the upper poppet seal, it needs just 100psi for noticeable air flow, more grease makes things worse of all things I discovered, which doesn't make sense for me, but I cleaned all the grease, just lubed it with some oil and with testing outside the fork it seems to be holding pressure this time, so I guess it's a win, if it doesn't work the only thing that remains is to play with the seals a bit, stock poppet seal is 4x1.5mm btw. mayby it's possible to put a little bit bigger one, 1.6mm mayby (if those even exist)


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

And of course, it's still doing it... Wonder if it has anything to do with me pushing the valve deep inside when assembling the fork (4mm Allen key method) Going to buy meself some o-rings...


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*I'm tired of this crap, time to give up.*

Not sure about the o-ring size anymore, the old ones were either squashed down or some oddball size, cause the new ones are a little larger, anyway, old o-rings were hard, these are a bit softer, now the poppet holds pressure @300 psi with no leak, so that's fixed, only small issue being that it's reluctant to retract back out, but that doesn't matter much. The real issue is that the fork is still losing travel, I even went ahead and degreased everything to see once again if there are no scratches inside, was ready to buy a fork to swap the parts over, but there is no scratches visible, and if there are some invisible ones, they should not be able to leak that much air this fast with oil and grease in there... I even went ahead and filled the chamber with oil above the piston level and it's still doing it, no oil in the valve now at least... Guess I'll have to remember and re equalise the chambers at least every ride... having 110mm of travel at the end of the day instead of 140 sucks though.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Took a more accurate look at the inside of the stanchion... 
[IMG-20200221-140932.jpg](https://postimg.cc/LqMzG5tv)
Either I didn't look close enough before, or I didn't want to accept the most costly option, there is no one big scratch anywhere, but the whole inside of the fork is coated in these sort of micro scratches, vertical and round, I guess that's the real reason for the updated piston design... I still cannot understand how can so much air be getting through with oil inside the chamber, how any air can get through with so small imperfections in the first place... But is there any way to mitigate that? Mayby some special grease or something? I'd expect any fork sold for cheap on the used market to have this issue so I don't even think a swap is feasible. New CSU is a no way for my budget...


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm sure others will chime in too but it may make sense to try using the service kit. It comes with everything that you need as far as orings/seals etc. Here's a link: https://www.universalcycles.com/sho...MI7OPZ6-7i5wIVxZ6zCh0EKQMYEAYYASABEgJqzfD_BwE

From what I read above I don't think you need a new CSU, just the maint with new orings.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I have replaced all the seals already, I just installed a brand new air piston for that matter  Just did a test with no oil in the chamber, just grease, and it's letting air through even faster  So the inside stanchion is definitely toast. It's weird to me that it's leaking because I've seen far worse with an old rear shock, and all it resulted in was a little more oil getting out than usual, it held air for many rides on, here 10 full compressions and I have a noticeable suck down. The compression rod also has a scratch for that matter (that's my fault, piece of debris after one of the dissassemblies) and it's not leaking air into the lowers, at least not enough to build up pressure in 3 months, and that scratch I can feel with my fingernail, unlike those in the stanchion, so what gives?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just a thought, would it be possible to swap damper and air spring sides in this fork? I don't want to take it apart again today, I'm tired, but if the diameter and thread is compatible, I might just have an undamaged inner wall in the right leg, the damper doesn't care for perfect seal so I'd be set there, another idea would be honing the cylinder a little, but I don't know how well that could work, with the anodising etc, though none of the scratches reach to the bare metal so my guess would be that it's possible to fix it.
Should I create a new thread for my particular issue?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Just a thought, would it be possible to swap damper and air spring sides in this fork? I don't want to take it apart again today, I'm tired, but if the diameter and thread is compatible, I might just have an undamaged inner wall in the right leg, the damper doesn't care for perfect seal so I'd be set there, another idea would be honing the cylinder a little, but I don't know how well that could work, with the anodising etc, though none of the scratches reach to the bare metal so my guess would be that it's possible to fix it.
> Should I create a new thread for my particular issue?


Yes the stanchions and casting threads are identical left/right.

Have you changed the air-seal quad? Top-cap seal? Air piston scratched behind the seal?

I have found two Mattocs with the same symptoms. One had a missing poppet o-ring (no idea why not) and the other had a torn quad-ring on the air piston. It was muppet wrenched.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

*resolved*

thanks


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Thanks everyone for good advice 
Thanks Dougal for confirmation about the left/ right compatibility! Because of the cartridge design of the lower damper assembly, the right leg is in spotless condition, my fork is now not losing travel anymore  An added benefit being that my bike looks even more custom than it did before, for anyone who noticed such things...
The compatibility made me think though, how would an eyeballed zero offset fork ride 🤔 but that's a test for another day, my bike is not long enough for me to be able to spare that much wheelbase.
Good think I replaced the shock oil too, it started out red, now it has a noticeable yellowish tone to it, suggesting fox gold got inside, rebound damping needing 2 more clicks confirm that possibility. I guess I can afford to change damping oil once a year.


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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

Hi folks.

I've just bought and installed a mattoc pro from CRC. It was manufactured in June 2019, its a 27.5 boost model with IRT and the mud guard. 

Before fitting I took the lowers off, un-did the air spring from the bottom, pulled it out, pulled off the single travel spacer on there, pushed the air spring back in, tightened it back up and reinstalled the lowers with 7cc of oil in them. Everything done to torque. Travel now set to 170mm.

Installed on to the frame it felt beautiful. Took it out for a ride and initially it felt great on the trail, but it very quickly developed a knock. 

Closer inspection if I press my thumb against the seal and the stanchion from the front, hold the brake and rock back and forth I can feel a very clear and relatively large amount of fore-and-aft play as the stanchion moves in the lowers. I can only feel this on the damper side stanchion, not the air spring stanchion. 

My immediate suspicion is that this is a bushing issue on the damper side. But I have of course taken them apart and faffed about with them to increase the travel, so I'm concerned its something I've done.

Could any experts provide any insight? Any other tests I could do to make sure its bushings? Happy to send them back but dont want them to just come back and tell me i cocked something up putting it back together!

Thanks


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

nova123 said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> I've just bought and installed a mattoc pro from CRC. It was manufactured in June 2019, its a 27.5 boost model with IRT and the mud guard.
> 
> ...


I had the exact same problem on mine after the first ride except I didn't pull mine apart, I'd bought them from wiggle (same as CRC). Being in NZ I sent them to shockcraft who confirmed it was a faulty bush and they kindly repaired it for me under warranty, I had them fit a high flow damper piston at the same time too.

It's a bit **** that this problem is still happening but persist with the fork as it's one of the best. I was thinking about upgrading to a Mezzer but I just can't see it being such a big improvement over the Mattoc to justify the cost.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nova123 said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> I've just bought and installed a mattoc pro from CRC. It was manufactured in June 2019, its a 27.5 boost model with IRT and the mud guard.
> 
> ...


90% chance it's the top right bushing.


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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

Thanks Dougal, Lachman. Sounds like my best/only option is to box it up and send it back to CRC. If only Shockcraft wasn't 11,000 miles from the UK!

Never used CRC for warranty so will be interesting, dont know who the UK distributor is for Manitou either. Hoping for a swift resolution as it transformed the bike compared to the RS Rev it replaced.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

nova123 said:


> Thanks Dougal, Lachman. Sounds like my best/only option is to box it up and send it back to CRC. If only Shockcraft wasn't 11,000 miles from the UK!
> 
> Never used CRC for warranty so will be interesting, dont know who the UK distributor is for Manitou either. Hoping for a swift resolution as it transformed the bike compared to the RS Rev it replaced.


The UK Manitou distributor is Hotlines. Who happen to share exact location and contact details with CRC.........


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## kartracer (Apr 10, 2015)

nova123 said:


> Installed on to the frame it felt beautiful. Took it out for a ride and initially it felt great on the trail, but it very quickly developed a knock.
> 
> Closer inspection if I [...] hold the brake and rock back and forth I can feel a very clear and relatively large amount of fore-and-aft play as the stanchion moves in the lowers. I can only feel this on the damper side stanchion, not the air spring stanchion.


My new Mattoc Pro 27+/29 from CRC had the same issue. I'm in the US so I contacted Manitou warranty here and they promptly sent me new replacement lowers (gave me the option of sending in the fork or shipping me new lowers). I just haven't had time yet to replace them. Great customer service!


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## Derg33 (May 24, 2017)

Derg33 said:


> I'm wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what might be causing my forks to bottom out before I strip them down. I recently gave them a full service as they gave up the ghost on an uplift day. I lost most of my travel and wouldn't even rebound with the wheel off the ground. They were feeling great after the service but now after 7 or 8 rides this has happened.
> 
> Any help or advice is much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Thanks for replies on this and sorry for late response. I stripped the damper again and reset the oil height which sorted the problem. I had used a different tool to set the oil height but hadn't taken into consideration how much the oil would be displaced with the tool inserted. I went back to my original way of setting the oil and all is good. Been riding on them for quite some time and they're back to working mint.

Many thanks.

Martyn


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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

kartracer said:


> My new Mattoc Pro 27+/29 from CRC had the same issue. I'm in the US so I contacted Manitou warranty here and they promptly sent me new replacement lowers (gave me the option of sending in the fork or shipping me new lowers). I just haven't had time yet to replace them. Great customer service!


Aha that is the ideal resolution. CRC have agreed to take it back and have a look at it. I'll post up with the conclusion for anyone reading this in the same situation in the UK.

Seeing as they've now dropped to £330 on CRC there may be some! Tempted to pick up another for spares and repairs for that...


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## richulr (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm guessing the $373 Mattoc that is on sale on Chain Reaction Cycles wont miraculously also work with a 29" wheel, will it?


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

Calling my Mattoc Pro friends.

I think I might have pulled the trigger a bit too early on a used Mattoc Pro 3. - or at least that's what I've been told it is. 
I was looking for a upgrade for my Manitou Machete where I roll on 29x3.00.

Seller told me that it's boost 27,5+/29+. Dorado Air w. internal adjustments to 130-140mm.

Can anyone confirm this by looking at these pics?

Please say I'm good to go 

Edit. Sorry for the bad pics.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

richulr said:


> I'm guessing the $373 Mattoc that is on sale on Chain Reaction Cycles wont miraculously also work with a 29" wheel, will it?


No, not likely. Maybe with a 1.25 road tire. 



Kristian94568 said:


> Calling my Mattoc Pro friends.
> 
> I think I might have pulled the trigger a bit too early on a used Mattoc Pro 3. - or at least that's what I've been told it is.
> I was looking for a upgrade for my Manitou Machete where I roll on 29x3.00.
> ...


Those pics are tough to read anything. I think the mattoc 3 would have come with the hexlock SL instead of the quick lever. That also looks like it might be a standard air cap or IVA air cap, and not the IRT the mattoc 3 would have come with. It might be a magnum, but I cant tell just from looking at the chassis. If it is a mattoc, the 27.5+ went to 140mm travel, and the 29+ only went to 120mm. The 27.5+ version will squeeze in a standard 29x2.2 but wont fit 29x3.0.

Aside from the lack of IRT, and Hexlock SL, I believe the the damper and chassis are the same.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Mattoc for plus tires is called a Magnum, Mattoc is not plus compatible (though some fit 2.8" but it's a tight fit) if it's really 140mm Max then it's the Magnum and you're good.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> No, not likely. Maybe with a 1.25 road tire.
> 
> Those pics are tough to read anything. I think the mattoc 3 would have come with the hexlock SL instead of the quick lever. That also looks like it might be a standard air cap or IVA air cap, and not the IRT the mattoc 3 would have come with. It might be a magnum, but I cant tell just from looking at the chassis. If it is a mattoc, the 27.5+ went to 140mm travel, and the 29+ only went to 120mm. The 27.5+ version will squeeze in a standard 29x2.2 but wont fit 29x3.0.
> 
> Aside from the lack of IRT, and Hexlock SL, I believe the the damper and chassis are the same.


Bummer. This is the information I got from the seller. If it tells you anything.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Kristian94568 said:


> Bummer. This is the information I got from the seller. If it tells you anything.


Based on my limited knowledge, I would say this is clearly mislabeled. Its certainly not a Mattoc 3. And if its 27.5+/29 size, it wont fit a 29+ tire. If it is a 29+ size, it wont stretch to 130 or 140.

My guess is its most likely the magnum pro. If it clears your 29x3.0 tire, and you can live with 120mm travel, it could be a good buy if the price is right. You can always upgrade to the IRT and hexlock SL and have an identical fork to the mattoc 3. Might need to update the seals too, but thats not a bad idea on any used fork.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> Based on my limited knowledge, I would say this is clearly mislabeled. Its certainly not a Mattoc 3. And if its 27.5+/29 size, it wont fit a 29+ tire. If it is a 29+ size, it wont stretch to 130 or 140.
> 
> My guess is its most likely the magnum pro. If it clears your 29x3.0 tire, and you can live with 120mm travel, it could be a good buy if the price is right. You can always upgrade to the IRT and hexlock SL and have an identical fork to the mattoc 3. Might need to update the seals too, but thats not a bad idea on any used fork.


Thank you. Could it be a Mattoc Comp? Seller told me he had it on a Nukeproof Scout and from what I can see it came stock on a Scout from a few years back and with 140mm travel.

My Machete is 120mm and was looking to upgrade to 130mm at least. I think I have to sell it again once I get my hands on it as it most likely wont fit my 29x3.00 setup.


----------



## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Kristian94568 said:


> Thank you. Could it be a Mattoc Comp? Seller told me he had it on a Nukeproof Scout and from what I can see it came stock on a Scout from a few years back and with 140mm travel.
> 
> My Machete is 120mm and was looking to upgrade to 130mm at least. I think I have to sell it again once I get my hands on it as it most likely wont fit my 29x3.00 setup.


I dont think its a comp, since it appears to be the MC2 damper. But unfortunately as far as I know theres no manitou option to fit both 29x3 and 130+ travel, at least not in the mattoc/magnum line.

But if it happens to be that your fork is the 29+, you owe it to yourself to at least try the fork. The fork will be much more usable throughout its range. With the hydraulic bottom out, you might be able to run lower pressure without worry of bottoming out hard. That could make the fork feel longer than it actually is. Then with the IRT, the fork really comes alive. If you really wanted the extra length to slacken the head tube angle, consider an angleset, or even a crown race spacer. If you still dont like it, then sell it.


----------



## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> I dont think its a comp, since it appears to be the MC2 damper. But unfortunately as far as I know theres no manitou option to fit both 29x3 and 130+ travel, at least not in the mattoc/magnum line.
> 
> But if it happens to be that your fork is the 29+, you owe it to yourself to at least try the fork. The fork will be much more usable throughout its range. With the hydraulic bottom out, you might be able to run lower pressure without worry of bottoming out hard. That could make the fork feel longer than it actually is. Then with the IRT, the fork really comes alive. If you really wanted the extra length to slacken the head tube angle, consider an angleset, or even a crown race spacer. If you still dont like it, then sell it.


Thank you again. I hope to get it delivered tomorrow. I will take a few more pics and share it.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

Kristian94568 said:


> Calling my Mattoc Pro friends.
> 
> I think I might have pulled the trigger a bit too early on a used Mattoc Pro 3. - or at least that's what I've been told it is.
> I was looking for a upgrade for my Manitou Machete where I roll on 29x3.00.
> ...


I got a [27.5+/29] 120~140mm variant of Mattoc proc 3. My axle is hex lock and not QL type. Also there is no 27.5+/29+ variant as far as I can tell based from Manitou Website. There is 29+ which is 120mm by default and most likely can be adjusted upto 140mm, again that's just based on details from Manitou website.

Mattoc Travels:

100mm (adjustable 80-100mm); 
120mm (adjustable 120-140mm); 
160mm (adjustable 140-170mm)

Crown To axle

549mm (27.5" BOOST); 
555mm (27.5" non-BOOST); 
509mm (27.5+/29" 100mm travel); 
529 (27.5+/29" 120mm travel); 
531mm (29+ 100mm travel); 
551mm (29+ 120mm travel)


----------



## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

nova123 said:


> Aha that is the ideal resolution. CRC have agreed to take it back and have a look at it. I'll post up with the conclusion for anyone reading this in the same situation in the UK.
> 
> Seeing as they've now dropped to £330 on CRC there may be some! Tempted to pick up another for spares and repairs for that...


For those that bought the 2019 Mattoc Pro from CRC, did it come with the QR or the Hexlock SL? Has anyone gotten one from CRC that did NOT have a bad bushing????


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

KillerKamote said:


> I got a [27.5+/29] 120~140mm variant of Mattoc proc 3. My axle is hex lock and not QL type. Also there is no 27.5+/29+ variant as far as I can tell based from Manitou Website. There is 29+ which is 120mm by default and most likely can be adjusted upto 140mm, again that's just based on details from Manitou website.
> 
> Mattoc Travels:
> 
> ...


Interesting. I just heard from the seller that it's 551mm from Crown to Axel. Oh well. I will keep you all informed once it arrives 
Thank you!


----------



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Kristian94568 said:


> Interesting. I just heard from the seller that it's 551mm from Crown to Axel. Oh well. I will keep you all informed once it arrives
> Thank you!


You will be able to tell when you look at the sticker on the back of the lowers. Its blurry in the pictures.

As said, the 27.5+/29 version goes to 140mm travel. The 29+ only stretches to 120mm.

Its it's the 27.5+/29 version, you can try the tire, but don't assume you are okay if the tire clears the arch. You need to check if the tire clears the crown at full bottom out to be safe. Spec is 5mm of clearance at the crown during full bottom out to leave room for tire flex.



piciu256 said:


> Mattoc for plus tires is called a Magnum, Mattoc is not plus compatible (though some fit 2.8" but it's a tight fit) if it's really 140mm Max then it's the Magnum and you're good.


The Magnum series is no longer produced and was rolled into the Mattoc namesake starting with the Mattoc Pro 3. Same rules apply as if it's a magnum. 29+ is it's own fork that only stretches to 120mm and the 27.5+(can run 3" tires)/29 (2.6" Tires officially) version will stretch to 140mm.


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## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

aski said:


> For those that bought the 2019 Mattoc Pro from CRC, did it come with the QR or the Hexlock SL? Has anyone gotten one from CRC that did NOT have a bad bushing????


No recent CRC customers following this thread currently?


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

KillerKamote said:


> I got a [27.5+/29] 120~140mm variant of Mattoc proc 3. My axle is hex lock and not QL type. Also there is no 27.5+/29+ variant as far as I can tell based from Manitou Website. There is 29+ which is 120mm by default and most likely can be adjusted upto 140mm, again that's just based on details from Manitou website.
> 
> Mattoc Travels:
> 
> ...


Do you happen to have the weight on that? Wonder if it really is 4.5 lb


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## jdang307 (May 30, 2015)

So, what is this bushing issue people are having? I think I mentioned last year, that I kept hearing a clunk, when hitting rocks etc. At first I thought it was a loose headset, or something else. Could it be a bushing issue? Also bought from CRC, but it's Pro 2. 27.5"


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> I dont think its a comp, since it appears to be the MC2 damper. But unfortunately as far as I know theres no manitou option to fit both 29x3 and 130+ travel, at least not in the mattoc/magnum line.
> 
> But if it happens to be that your fork is the 29+, you owe it to yourself to at least try the fork. The fork will be much more usable throughout its range. With the hydraulic bottom out, you might be able to run lower pressure without worry of bottoming out hard. That could make the fork feel longer than it actually is. Then with the IRT, the fork really comes alive. If you really wanted the extra length to slacken the head tube angle, consider an angleset, or even a crown race spacer. If you still dont like it, then sell it.





KillerKamote said:


> I got a [27.5+/29] 120~140mm variant of Mattoc proc 3. My axle is hex lock and not QL type. Also there is no 27.5+/29+ variant as far as I can tell based from Manitou Website. There is 29+ which is 120mm by default and most likely can be adjusted upto 140mm, again that's just based on details from Manitou website.
> 
> Mattoc Travels:
> 
> ...





mullen119 said:


> You will be able to tell when you look at the sticker on the back of the lowers. Its blurry in the pictures.
> 
> As said, the 27.5+/29 version goes to 140mm travel. The 29+ only stretches to 120mm.
> 
> ...


Okay I just received it with UPS. Super poorly packed from the seller but no damages it seems.

I've added a few pictures. Fitted with 3.00 chubs


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Kristian94568 said:


> Okay I just received it with UPS. Super poorly packed from the seller but no damages it seems.
> 
> I've added a few pictures. Fitted with 3.00 chubs


Awesome that it clears the 3.0 tire! Looks like the 29+ variant to me. But I still think its limited to 120mm travel, unless someone has hacked and unofficially stretched it, but I havent heard of anyone doing this yet.

Regardless, I think you should try it at 120 and see how it does. It would do even better with the IRT. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


----------



## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> Awesome that it clears the 3.0 tire! Looks like the 29+ variant to me. But I still think its limited to 120mm travel, unless someone has hacked and unofficially stretched it, but I havent heard of anyone doing this yet.
> 
> Regardless, I think you should try it at 120 and see how it does. It would do even better with the IRT. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


yeah.. it will be a upgrade from the Machete anyways right?


----------



## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It is, if you had the Kwik toggle damper, then it's a big upgrade, with ABS+ a little upgrade, the air spring is not as refined and there is not nearly so much external adjustment+ no HBO.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

piciu256 said:


> It is, if you had the Kwik toggle damper, then it's a big upgrade, with ABS+ a little upgrade, the air spring is not as refined and there is not nearly so much external adjustment+ no HBO.


You mean ABS+ on the machete, right? His pics show the MC2 damper with HBO and all the bells and whisles except IRT. Its a good fork. If he can upgrade to IRT, it will be even better. I wouldnt worry about it only being 120, the travel is gonna be a lot more active and capable on this new fork. Theres a big difference between my magnum pro with MC2/IRT and my mattoc comp with the ABS+.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> You mean ABS+ on the machete, right? His pics show the MC2 damper with HBO and all the bells and whisles except IRT. Its a good fork. If he can upgrade to IRT, it will be even better. I wouldnt worry about it only being 120, the travel is gonna be a lot more active and capable on this new fork. Theres a big difference between my magnum pro with MC2/IRT and my mattoc comp with the ABS+.


That makes me happy to hear. What would it take to upgrade to IRT?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Kristian94568 said:


> That makes me happy to hear. What would it take to upgrade to IRT?


About 75 bucks and a wrench.

Ride it as is for now. You can do the upgrade any time. Make sure you like the fork first, and its functioning correctly.


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

GuitsBoy said:


> About 75 bucks and a wrench.
> 
> Ride it as is for now. You can do the upgrade any time. Make sure you like the fork first, and its functioning correctly.


Cool. I will. Picture shows the Mattoc compared to the Machete


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

aski said:


> No recent CRC customers following this thread currently?


I bought a Mattoc Pro Boost last month from CRC. No problem with bushings so far, probably only done about 8k feet of descending though. I'm sufficiently confident though that I've bought another one for my second bike; wanted a Mezzer but for £320 the Mattoc is too cheap to ignore.


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## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

will1994 said:


> I bought a Mattoc Pro Boost last month from CRC. No problem with bushings so far, probably only done about 8k feet of descending though. I'm sufficiently confident though that I've bought another one for my second bike; wanted a Mezzer but for £320 the Mattoc is too cheap to ignore.


Thanks for that info. Just curious, did it come with the hexlock or QR axle? The Manitou site states the Mattoc Pro 3 comes stock with the hexlock. The CRC product description says it comes with QR. I was wondering if CRC is altering the stock fork items or if this is another example of CRC product descriptions being erroneous?


----------



## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

aski said:


> Thanks for that info. Just curious, did it come with the hexlock or QR axle? The Manitou site states the Mattoc Pro 3 comes stock with the hexlock. The CRC product description says it comes with QR. I was wondering if CRC is altering the stock fork items or if this is another example of CRC product descriptions being erroneous?


It cones with the hexlock. Better design than the QR imo, used a first generation mattoc for a number of years and over time the plastic bushing and internal spring of the QR seemed to wear and 'stretch' quite appreciably. The hexlock is preferable from an aesthetic perspective too.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

will1994 said:


> I bought a Mattoc Pro Boost last month from CRC. No problem with bushings so far, probably only done about 8k feet of descending though. I'm sufficiently confident though that I've bought another one for my second bike; wanted a Mezzer but for £320 the Mattoc is too cheap to ignore.


Could you share the A2C and travel of your Mattoc Pro Boost from CRC? The website lists 160mm travel and A2C 555mm, which only match non-boost 27.5 spec. I am wondering if this is 27.5 boost version or the 27.5+/29 version. Thanks much.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

upsha said:


> Could you share the A2C and travel of your Mattoc Pro Boost from CRC? The website lists 160mm travel and A2C 555mm, which only match non-boost 27.5 spec. I am wondering if this is 27.5 boost version or the 27.5+/29 version. Thanks much.


Axle to crown is 535mm set at 140mm and it is the 27.5 boost version. The A2C measurements Manitou list for the 'Boost' forks appear to be outdated, according to Dougal of this forum the reason for the initial Boost forks having shorter A2C's at equivalent travel was a longer top out bumper, resulting in an effective reduction in travel. The A2C on my fork (and if I recall correctly, Dougal's) is the same as the equivalent travel non Boost, indicating that Manitou no longer install the taller top out bumper in their Boost forks.


----------



## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

Also an unfortunate addendum to my previous comment, while at the time I hadn't really noticed anything untoward, on yesterdays ride I paid a little extra attention to possible play in the bushings and did in fact notice some. Testing it more thoroughly after getting home I found that there's a noticeable degree of play in both bushings, though more so in the right hand damper leg. It is noticeable both laterally and torsionally. 

I have a first gen Mattoc on my old hardtail so I applied the same tests (bike upside down, front brake on, applying lateral and torsional load to the fork) and found almost no play whatsoever. I then tried to evaluate whether the play was resulting in any appreciable binding of the fork stanchions; again comparing the original Mattoc to my new one there does in fact seem to be a small but noticeable degree of binding when the fork is loaded either laterally or torsionally that is absent in my (5 year old!) original Mattoc.

I found that track standing with the fork turned at an acute angle while slightly leaning over and pumping the fork resulted in an appreciable amount of binding. Not enough to actually prevent the fork compressing but noticeable nonetheless. 

I'm unsure what, if any, effect this has on the trail but I am sufficiently concerned that I'm now considering returning the second fork I'd ordered for my Enduro bike - any bushing issues noticeable at 140mm will likely be significantly accentuated at 170mm.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

will1994 said:


> Axle to crown is 535mm set at 140mm and it is the 27.5 boost version. The A2C measurements Manitou list for the 'Boost' forks appear to be outdated, according to Dougal of this forum the reason for the initial Boost forks having shorter A2C's at equivalent travel was a longer top out bumper, resulting in an effective reduction in travel. The A2C on my fork (and if I recall correctly, Dougal's) is the same as the equivalent travel non Boost, indicating that Manitou no longer install the taller top out bumper in their Boost forks.


Really appreciate the details you provided!


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## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

will1994 said:


> Also an unfortunate addendum to my previous comment, while at the time I hadn't really noticed anything untoward, on yesterdays ride I paid a little extra attention to possible play in the bushings and did in fact notice some. Testing it more thoroughly after getting home I found that there's a noticeable degree of play in both bushings, though more so in the right hand damper leg. It is noticeable both laterally and torsionally.


Thanks for the update. I've often wondered if some of the better deals on CRC didn't come from returned or refurbished product. It also seems that Manitou customer service and warranty is a bit inconsistent and varies with geographical location. Makes me hesitant to pull the trigger.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

aski said:


> Thanks for the update. I've often wondered if some of the better deals on CRC didn't come from returned or refurbished product. It also seems that Manitou customer service and warranty is a bit inconsistent and varies with geographical location. Makes me hesitant to pull the trigger.


AFAIK Manitou don't sell refurbished or returned product. You're often looking at an OEM special order product.


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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

aski said:


> Thanks for the update. I've often wondered if some of the better deals on CRC didn't come from returned or refurbished product. It also seems that Manitou customer service and warranty is a bit inconsistent and varies with geographical location. Makes me hesitant to pull the trigger.


You probably saw my post earlier in the thread but I bought a 27.5 boost mattoc from crc about a month ago. Play in the bushings at 170 was significant, definitely unrideable. Been with crc for a while now, I'll post up when I get an update.


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## D-Avid (May 18, 2006)

Does anyone happen to have a spare compression rod assembly?


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

nova123 said:


> You probably saw my post earlier in the thread but I bought a 27.5 boost mattoc from crc about a month ago. Play in the bushings at 170 was significant, definitely unrideable. Been with crc for a while now, I'll post up when I get an update.


It is incredible that manitou has not yet recalled all those forks. they only hurt him

Enviado desde mi Redmi 5 Plus mediante Tapatalk


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## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> I found the cause of this today. It is the ABS+ compression damper check shim causing the knock on a slightly conical piston face. I think virtually all owners reporting bushing knock actually have this damper knock and the bushings are fine.
> 
> To fix it. Remove the ABS+ damper, undo the bottom nut, take off the piston and polish the bottom surface flat using fine emery paper on a dead flat surface.
> 
> Clean the piston and reinstall.


Hello Dougal,
have the same "knocking" issue (Mattoc Comp 2017, 29 boost), so I did as you recommended: I stripped down the ABS+ damper, removed the compression piston, grounded and lapped the check valve side of it to mirror finish(It was in fact slightly concave towards the center), but still got the noise with compression applied.










Isn't the piston too thin now?

Also the rebound knob (just 7/8 clicks?) seems to have almost no effect on the behaviour of the forks.
What should I do?

Thank you in advance!


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

col.tello said:


> Hello Dougal,
> have the same "knocking" issue (Mattoc Comp 2017, 29 boost), so I did as you recommended: I stripped down the ABS+ damper, removed the compression piston, grounded and lapped the check valve side of it to mirror finish(It was in fact slightly concave towards the center), but still got the noise with compression applied.
> 
> 
> ...


The piston change in thickness isn't an issue. I would check out your rebound damper. If it has no effect with the adjuster then something may be holding a shim open. That could be your knocking too.


----------



## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

Hi folks, last update from me. CRC accepted the warranty return for the loose bushing, but as usual they wont repair. So I've got a new set in the post, no saying these will be any better as there's clearly been a batch with the issue. Lets see...


----------



## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

nova123 said:


> Hi folks, last update from me. CRC accepted the warranty return for the loose bushing, but as usual they wont repair. So I've got a new set in the post, no saying these will be any better as there's clearly been a batch with the issue. Lets see...


Thanks for the update. I've been on the fence about trying one, but decided to hold off. Hopefully you'll get a good one this time.


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Got a new Mattoc Pro 27.5 110x15 from a private deal. Can't tell if it's the Pro 2 or Pro 3 as it's not marked. Has IRT and the newest paint/sticker scheme. 

With cut steerer came to 1775g. Haven't ridden it yet, just set it up with the recommended settings on air and rebound. 160lb rider.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

TylerVernon said:


> Got a new Mattoc Pro 27.5 110x15 from a private deal. Can't tell if it's the Pro 2 or Pro 3 as it's not marked. Has IRT and the newest paint/sticker scheme.
> 
> With cut steerer came to 1775g. Haven't ridden it yet, just set it up with the recommended settings on air and rebound. 160lb rider.


Boost 110 is pro 3. 15x100 is pro 2


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Thank you! I just came back to edit my post saying I had educated myself lol.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Vespasianus said:


> The fork will take some time - 20 to 30 hours of saddle time to break in.


OK this makes me feel better. 3 rides so far, it does OK, it does feel a little better on chunky loose stuff than an XC fork, but not a lot better. Downhill times are solid but not 'better' than with a 120mm fork. So I'll just keep riding it and hope it breaks in just right. Because if it doesn't, I don't see the point of going above XC-level forks if it's not even that much better in rougher conditions.

One other thing, it seems like the rebound bounces the front end off-center an inch or two on bigger hits. Rebound is set to 5, should not be doing that. The fork just feels less...precise than an XC one. More dials, but less precision...in contrast, XC forks go down and back straight up exactly, every time, no matter the size of obstacle. This fork feels like the rebound has play in it, that the aluminum housing is squirming a bit, possibly due to 160mm travel but with only 4.1 lbs total weight for the pro version? Maybe a 4.5 to 5.0 lb fork would feel more solid for this travel length?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> OK this makes me feel better. 3 rides so far, it does OK, it does feel a little better on chunky loose stuff than an XC fork, but not a lot better. Downhill times are solid but not 'better' than with a 120mm fork. So I'll just keep riding it and hope it breaks in just right. Because if it doesn't, I don't see the point of going above XC-level forks if it's not even that much better in rougher conditions.
> 
> One other thing, it seems like the rebound bounces the front end off-center an inch or two on bigger hits. Rebound is set to 5, should not be doing that. The fork just feels less...precise than an XC one. More dials, but less precision...in contrast, XC forks go down and back straight up exactly, every time, no matter the size of obstacle. This fork feels like the rebound has play in it, that the aluminum housing is squirming a bit, possibly due to 160mm travel but with only 4.1 lbs total weight for the pro version? Maybe a 4.5 to 5.0 lb fork would feel more solid for this travel length?


What are your settings? It sounds far too firm.


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Dougal said:


> What are your settings? It sounds far too firm.


As a previous post said, 50-200 miles of break-in and I have 30 miles.

Settings vary of course. Flat surfaces I turn the slow and fast dials all the way to the right, (relatively closed). I noticed that there is no real lockout, but both dials closed is only about 20mm of travel left on a flat surface and that's good enough as locked out.

Downhill I turned both dials all the way to the left (open) for the first two rides, then the 3rd ride I had the low speed 1/4 or open but the fast was 3/6 or half-open. So generally all the way open downhill, rebound 5/10, I didn't set the psi but if I push down hard on the handlebars with everything open it travels about 80-100mm, so I don't think it's too firm, right?

Bottom line: I'm not an AM/DH dude, I'm just doing this for fun to see if I can do some chunkier trails faster or not. If this air spring loosens up and does great, cool. If not, I have an XC bike that does just fine on most trails anyway. A longer fork like this and aluminum frame are more comfy (hardtail, not FS), absorb bumps better, but for now the actual performance is only marginally better than 120mm / carbon frame, if at all. Just my experience so far.


----------



## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The piston change in thickness isn't an issue. I would check out your rebound damper. If it has no effect with the adjuster then something may be holding a shim open. That could be your knocking too.


Thank you Dougal. Will have a look.


----------



## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

nova123 said:


> Hi folks, last update from me. CRC accepted the warranty return for the loose bushing, but as usual they wont repair. So I've got a new set in the post, no saying these will be any better as there's clearly been a batch with the issue. Lets see...


I have to admit I got my Mattoc Comp from a reputable german online shop, and still loose bushings(by a lot) plus, knocking noise. I don't know what's going on with QC.
It seems Manitou CS will not support me, but I will have to deal with the seller.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> As a previous post said, 50-200 miles of break-in and I have 30 miles.
> 
> Settings vary of course. Flat surfaces I turn the slow and fast dials all the way to the right, (relatively closed). I noticed that there is no real lockout, but both dials closed is only about 20mm of travel left on a flat surface and that's good enough as locked out.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you weigh, but I generally have the low speed fully closed, one click of HSC from open and rebound two or three from open. I'm 80kg and running 170mm and last ride had the fork pressure at 40/80psi (main /IRT).


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Edit, I first rode the fork with everything open, but it took me awhile to realise that the HSC was related to LSC. And I stand to be corrected but the HSC dial won't do anything until the LSC is being closed.
I only ever open it up when I'm knackered and just rolling back to the car on fumes. The LSC/HSC add composure to the bike, not necessarily comfort or plushness, but the bike goes exactly where I want it.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Dougal said:


> The UK Manitou distributor is Hotlines. Who happen to share exact location and contact details with CRC.........


Dougal - CRC and hotlines are in different countries.

also interested in your high flow piston (mattoc). can you explain the pros and cons of having more oil flow?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

POAH said:


> Dougal - CRC and hotlines are in different countries.
> 
> also interested in your high flow piston (mattoc). can you explain the pros and cons of having more oil flow?


They appear to be split location now. They used to share the exact address with CRC. I'm guessing stuff got reorganised after they acquired Wiggle.

The high flow piston reduces unwanted damping from the midvalve ports. This is so you can run more compression damping in the basevalve where you can control it properly.

The result is greatly reduced harshness and being able to run more LSC for better stability and bump control.

It was such a good idea the Manitou engineers put them in the new Mezzer damper!


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

hotlines have been in Edinburgh for as long as I can remember and CRC were in NI before wiggle bought them. 

TBH I can't feel a difference with LSC open or closed on the trails. I'm probably not going to notice a valve change either lol.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

POAH said:


> hotlines have been in Edinburgh for as long as I can remember and CRC were in NI before wiggle bought them.
> 
> TBH I can't feel a difference with LSC open or closed on the trails. I'm probably not going to notice a valve change either lol.


See below. Both companies have the same registered office:

HOTLINES EUROPE LTD

Company number NI058521 
Registered office address
5 Trench Road, Mallusk, Newtonabbey, Northern Ireland, BT36 4TY
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI058521

CHAIN REACTION CYCLES LTD

Company number NI036744 
Registered office address
5 Trench Road, Mallusk, Newtonabbey, Northern Ireland, BT36 4TY
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI036744

Both are owned by Mapil Bidco Limited:

Which is owned by Mapil Midco 2 Limited:

Which is owned by Mapil Midco 1 Limited:

Which is owned by Mapil Topco Limited:

It just keeps on going.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Dougal said:


> The high flow piston reduces unwanted damping from the midvalve ports. This is so you can run more compression damping in the basevalve where you can control it properly.
> 
> The result is greatly reduced harshness and being able to run more LSC for better stability and bump control.
> 
> It was such a good idea the Manitou engineers put them in the new Mezzer damper!


Can a home mechanic buy such a high flow piston and instal it? Is a revalve needed?
I upgraded my expert to a pro so in the future i might be able to upgrade to the high flow piston. Small steps 

One more question; I have a 160 mm mattoc 27.5". Can i get it to 170 mm.
Reason is that i have it fitted to a bike that was designed around a 170 mm fork. Thing is that the 160 mm mattoc feels much better than the 170 mm Lyrik 
So i want to get the geo back.

If i had a bigger salary i would buy a mezzer.


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## will1994 (Mar 24, 2015)

If you have the Mattoc Pro Boost model then yes you can remove the pre-installed spacer on the air shaft and extend travel to 170mm


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Dougal said:


> See below. Both companies have the same registered office:
> 
> HOTLINES EUROPE LTD
> 
> ...


ah I was talking about the actual place they are in not the address registered with company's house. Thats a different thing to the actual building they actually reside in. Slight crossing of paths there.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mudguard said:


> I'm not sure what you weigh, but I generally have the low speed fully closed, one click of HSC from open and rebound two or three from open. I'm 80kg and running 170mm and last ride had the fork pressure at 40/80psi (main /IRT).


Fork is broken in! It doesn't feel sloppy now and I'm starting to smash personal records. Not the fastest down every trail but it's working correctly now. I'm 155 lbs. Max travel used by the plastic ring position is 80-85% now, so it's pretty much done breaking in. Unless I'm pedaling a lot on a downhill segment I'll turn everything on open; if there is a decent amount of pedaling I'll use 1/2 open for fast, and completely open for slow. Have not changed rebound from 5/10 yet.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> Fork is broken in! It doesn't feel sloppy now and I'm starting to smash personal records. Not the fastest down every trail but it's working correctly now. I'm 155 lbs. Max travel used by the plastic ring position is 80-85% now, so it's pretty much done breaking in. Unless I'm pedaling a lot on a downhill segment I'll turn everything on open; if there is a decent amount of pedaling I'll use 1/2 open for fast, and completely open for slow. Have not changed rebound from 5/10 yet.


Ah that's good news. Still you're lighter than me and running more rebound. How does the fork feel with the rebound almost open? I wouldn't think of the LSC as being critical to pedalling, it's set and forget for me.

Here are some other user settings.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VuHv47XkwMWrPO3fDP0aCin0aPd1lSW1aptF-bVciZA/edit#gid=0


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

Can someone tell me which Mattoc/Magnum model fits 29x2.6 tires?
Also, I need 140mm travel and 42-44 offset not 51 and it is too confusing to figure out if they even make this and which it is.
will this work - https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost-2019/rp-prod193943

thanks,DT


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Hi, I also have a question for the experts. I want to put a 140mm Mattoc on my trail bike, and that gives two options - One model lengthened to 140 as its max travel, or another model shortened to 140 as its minimum travel. This will be 27.5. Which model would be better?


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## tdaniel93 (Mar 29, 2019)

TylerVernon said:


> Hi, I also have a question for the experts. I want to put a 140mm Mattoc on my trail bike, and that gives two options - One model lengthened to 140 as its max travel, or another model shortened to 140 as its minimum travel. This will be 27.5. Which model would be better?


I'm no expert but I know when I was looking for a 27.5 fork for my Hawk Hill I settled on the boost 27.5 model. I think the only Mattoc that tops out at 140 would be the 27.5+ model and the geometry wouldn't be the same since it has an increased axle to crown length. So unless you want to run anything greater than a 2.5 or 2.6" tire up front I'd stick with the boost model, plus you get the mudguard.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd also say go for the standard 160mm version, this also gives you the possibility of increasing the negative chamber volume.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dtheo said:


> Can someone tell me which Mattoc/Magnum model fits 29x2.6 tires?
> Also, I need 140mm travel and 42-44 offset not 51 and it is too confusing to figure out if they even make this and which it is.
> will this work - https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost-2019/rp-prod193943
> 
> thanks,DT


The 27+/29" version fits that size. Unofficially I know someone who ran 29x2.8 in them.

To get your offset there is no off-the-shelf version. But it could be built by using a 27 Boost crown in the 27+ fork.

Mezzer gives your travel and offset option off the shelf and is actually lighter than the 27+/29" Mattoc.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mudguard said:


> Ah that's good news. Still you're lighter than me and running more rebound. How does the fork feel with the rebound almost open? I wouldn't think of the LSC as being critical to pedalling, it's set and forget for me.
> 
> Here are some other user settings.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VuHv47XkwMWrPO3fDP0aCin0aPd1lSW1aptF-bVciZA/edit#gid=0


I have not messed with the rebound yet. So you put it on like 7 or 8 out 10 for damping?

I know this is not apples to apples but this is what I've learned with the 120mm Machete in the last several months: the best performance is to more or less match the closed/open settings for both rebound and compression. I'm not taking any big jumps so rebound relatively speaking is not a big deal, or at least it doesn't seem that way. Compression is a lot more important than I previously realized. I set the compression first and then rebound follows.

If it's all-mountain with a lot of loose rocks, roots, etc. and has some steep sections, not too much pedaling, then I'll put the compression completely open and rebound around 2/10.

If it's between all-mountain and XC with a combination of pedaling and gravity descent but not many larger obstacles, I'll put the compression around 4/8 and rebound around 5/10.

If it's XC, I'll put the compression at 7/8 (two clicks from closed), and the rebound around 8/10. This helps pedaling a lot.

Translating that to the Mattoc with two compression settings, some descents are pretty much straight down at a constant angle, some have a few short uphill sections. If it's straight down, then the compression for both speeds can be completely open. If it's mostly down but hardpack up short sections, then 2/4 or 3/4 for slow and open for fast. If instead there are a lot of loose rocks up the short sections but more hardpacked on the flats or descents, then the reverse, open for slow and 3/6 for fast. XC (if for whatever reason I take this fork on that kind of trail), then probably closed for slow and 3/6 for fast.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> As a previous post said, 50-200 miles of break-in and I have 30 miles.
> 
> Settings vary of course. Flat surfaces I turn the slow and fast dials all the way to the right, (relatively closed). I noticed that there is no real lockout, but both dials closed is only about 20mm of travel left on a flat surface and that's good enough as locked out.
> 
> ...


I think I missed it, but weight and psi are the important bits.

If you have IRT then put your riding weight (with gear) in the top chamber and half that in the bottom chamber. See how that feels.



thova said:


> Can a home mechanic buy such a high flow piston and instal it? Is a revalve needed?
> I upgraded my expert to a pro so in the future i might be able to upgrade to the high flow piston. Small steps
> 
> One more question; I have a 160 mm mattoc 27.5". Can i get it to 170 mm.
> ...


Yes the high flow pistons are installed by competent home mechanics. You need to take the whole damper out (compression comes out the top, then rebound assembly out the bottom) before taking the rebound outer tube off and then the piston out.

170mm in the non-boost is only for 26" wheels. In 27" mode it has 10mm more tyre clearance.


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

thanks dougal!
are there other lowers that will work on the 44 offset crown - eg- magnum 29+ or any of the comp models?



Dougal said:


> The 27+/29" version fits that size. Unofficially I know someone who ran 29x2.8 in them.
> 
> To get your offset there is no off-the-shelf version. But it could be built by using a 27 Boost crown in the 27+ fork.
> 
> Mezzer gives your travel and offset option off the shelf and is actually lighter than the 27+/29" Mattoc.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dtheo said:


> thanks dougal!
> are there other lowers that will work on the 44 offset crown - eg- magnum 29+ or any of the comp models?


Lowers are the same for Pro and Comp models and Magnum/Mattoc. The 29+ lowers won't help you.

I'd say get a 29" Mezzer with 44mm offset and call it done. It's a lighter fork than the 27+/29" Mattoc.

I've got them (with the new lowers too) but we're on lockdown right now with Wuhan Flu and it's unknown when we'll be able to ship.


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## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

col.tello said:


> I have to admit I got my Mattoc Comp from a reputable german online shop, and still loose bushings(by a lot) plus, knocking noise. I don't know what's going on with QC.
> It seems Manitou CS will not support me, but I will have to deal with the seller.


Dougal, 
can you please tell me which cSt values you recorded for Motorex 5w40 and RS 0w30 @20 and @30 °C while drawing the awesome chart below?









I'm trying to compensate for bushing slop by using a thicker oil, and I have only RS 0w30, and some 5w30/5w40 on hand right now. RS 0w30 seems quite "slippery" but for sure not thick; don't know it's behaviour at temps between 15-30 °C which I will be riding in.

Thanks!


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Hey guys I just did a full service on my mattoc 26 and a travel change from 160 to 170 mm.

It makes a knocking sound when quickly compressing the fork from full extension.It makes the knocking sound with rebound fully closed and rebound two clicks from fully closed. With the rebound three clicks from fully closed or full open there's no knock sound. Knocking sound is independent of compression settings.

Any idea what might be the issue? 
I put in oil height of 77 mm and 10 cc of semi bath oil.




Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> Hey guys I just did a full service on my mattoc 26 and a travel change from 160 to 170 mm.
> 
> It makes a knocking sound when quickly compressing the fork from full extension.It makes the knocking sound with rebound fully closed and rebound two clicks from fully closed. With the rebound three clicks from fully closed or full open there's no knock sound. Knocking sound is independent of compression settings.
> 
> ...


Pro or expert?


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Hi dougal,

It is a mattoc pro with added IRT. I replaced the air piston quad ring seal and put in new low friction wiper seals. When slowly applying compression from full extension it knocks as well. If I compress the fork about 20 mm hold it there and then apply a quick compression to compress it another 20 mm it knocks as well. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

col.tello said:


> Dougal,
> can you please tell me which cSt values you recorded for Motorex 5w40 and RS 0w30 @20 and @30 °C while drawing the awesome chart below?
> 
> 
> ...


@Dougal, do you have any numbers on hand? 
Thanks


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Looks like a need a bit of help diagnosing what's going on here:

My 2015 Mattoc Pro intermittently seems to become severely over damped, as if LSC, HSC and R are all set to their maximum. This is irrespective of air temp, mud, dust etc. Seems like the only correlation is the more I ride, the worse it gets. Leave the bike in the garage for a while and it gets better. I refreshed the bath oil last week and 5 rides in the over damped feeling is already returning. I've now pulled everything apart (yea, too many variables) and can't really see what's wrong.

I have been using Fox Gold (90 CSt?) bath oil for years. Refreshing it returns fork performance to normal for a short while, but: an oil change requires all kinds of other work, such as unthreading the damper and air spring from the lowers. No idea of those actions are having an effect.

When the fork was new it suffered RS Pike-like buildup of air in the stanchions but I haven't had this issue for years. I did recently replace dust wipers and oil seals, but I can't detect air buildup currently.

Given that I changed the seals, I thought I might have accidentally placed the oil seals upside-down, but if that was the case the fork should leak oil constantly (it doesn't).

Last night I left the bike upside-down with my shock pump attached, thinking maybe there's too much oil in the +ve air chamber and this has leaked to the -ve chamber. Fork performance was almost normal this morning, so I removed the air side topcap: hardly any oil in there, certainly < 3 mL.

In the end I refreshed the damper oil as well, using 25 CSt Motorex (all I had lying around). The old oil was looking quite nasty, discoloured and full of air. Performance is now excellent again.

So given all these changes I have no idea what the problem is (or was). The only thing I can think of is I goofed on the oil seal replacement, or my damper oil was just really, really old.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Eric


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> Hi dougal,
> 
> It is a mattoc pro with added IRT. I replaced the air piston quad ring seal and put in new low friction wiper seals. When slowly applying compression from full extension it knocks as well. If I compress the fork about 20 mm hold it there and then apply a quick compression to compress it another 20 mm it knocks as well.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


Sounds like something is loose. Check everything in the damper side.



col.tello said:


> @Dougal, do you have any numbers on hand?
> Thanks


RS 0W30 @ 20C is 97 cSt.
Max Powersynt 5W40 @ 20C is 250 cSt.



eric said:


> Looks like a need a bit of help diagnosing what's going on here:
> 
> My 2015 Mattoc Pro intermittently seems to become severely over damped, as if LSC, HSC and R are all set to their maximum. This is irrespective of air temp, mud, dust etc. Seems like the only correlation is the more I ride, the worse it gets. Leave the bike in the garage for a while and it gets better. I refreshed the bath oil last week and 5 rides in the over damped feeling is already returning. I've now pulled everything apart (yea, too many variables) and can't really see what's wrong.
> 
> ...


Foamed up damper oil would do it. Upgrading the damper end-cap seal from a 10x15x4 wiper to a 10x3 o-ring helps slow that happening. Fitting my high flow piston fixes it totally.

Also worth draining and lubing air spring during lower leg service. I also upgrade the air-side lower seal to 10x3 as above. Only use grease in the air-spring. No oil.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like something is loose. Check everything in the damper side.
> 
> RS 0W30 @ 20C is 97 cSt.
> Max Powersynt 5W40 @ 20C is 250 cSt.
> ...


Thanks very much for the response and for the tuning tips. I was actually looking at your high-flow piston a while ago, but need to find a way from the courier turning turning into a $250,- package once S&H, VAT and EU duties are added on.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

I took out the compression assembly, and the only thing that is loose is the washer next to the foam compensator. Is that normal?

also in my photo I have a picture of the original compression assembly up top and a compression assembly that was sent by Manitou when I had a leaking compression dial. I never installed a replacement assembly. I noticed it's slightly different where I have the white zip tie pointing. Does this retaining clip need to be removed?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> I took out the compression assembly, and the only thing that is loose is the washer next to the foam compensator. Is that normal?
> 
> also in my photo I have a picture of the original compression assembly up top and a compression assembly that was sent by Manitou when I had a leaking compression dial. I never installed a replacement assembly. I noticed it's slightly different where I have the white zip tie pointing. Does this retaining clip need to be removed?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


I wouldn't expect it to be in the compression assembly, check the rebound for anything out of place.

That was an update to the manufacturing of the compression assembly. They both work the same. Don't take them apart, they're very complex.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Took out rebound assembly and did not find anything loose. I do notice play with the rebound rod completely extended and pressing against the rod as shown in the photos The gap between rod and seal is much smaller when I push the rod one way versus the other way. Could this play cause the knocking









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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> Took out rebound assembly and did not find anything loose. I do notice play with the rebound rod completely extended and pressing against the rod as shown in the photos The gap between rod and seal is much smaller when I push the rod one way versus the other way. Could this play cause the knocking
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That won't cause any knocking. Take the outer tube off the rebound (it unscrews) and see how the piston and shims look.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eric said:


> Thanks very much for the response and for the tuning tips. I was actually looking at your high-flow piston a while ago, but need to find a way from the courier turning turning into a $250,- package once S&H, VAT and EU duties are added on.


We've just livened up international currencies to make everything clearer. For export it's 60 euro: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/tuning-upgrade/high-flow-pistons

Currency tab is top right. Choosing between international and NZ toggles NZ tax on/off and enables all the other currencies. It's a bit clunky on mobile at the moment.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Hi dougal

Really appreciate the help. Took out the rebound rod and the only loose items is the white ring and metal piece at the tip. Both are pointed out in my photo using zip ties.









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## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> RS 0W30 @ 20C is 97 cSt.
> Max Powersynt 5W40 @ 20C is 250 cSt.


Thanks for your precious help!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mobilenemo said:


> Hi dougal
> 
> Really appreciate the help. Took out the rebound rod and the only loose items is the white ring and metal piece at the tip. Both are pointed out in my photo using zip ties.
> 
> ...


Those both have some wiggle in them and won't cause your knock. At least we know the important bits are all good. Get it back together and see how it feels.



col.tello said:


> Thanks for your precious help!


Happy to help.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

An update to the fork. Put everything back together. Went for a trail ride and no weird funny sounds. Although I don't typically ride with full rebound closed. 

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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

Hi again Mattoc gang.

CRC refunded my first fork so I bought another in the hope I might get one from a batch that doesnt have the bushing issue.

Couldn't feel any play with the fork in a vice so chopped the steerer and fit a star nut. Put it on the bike and went for a ride. Sadly, there's a definitely now a distinct knock in one of the legs and I can feel the play pressing my thumb against the seal/stanchion, bushings issue again.

It's only one leg this time and the play isn't quite as severe. Definitely easily noticeable though.

Really disappointed because I like these forks a lot, IRT is a great system.

Its so frustrating that I just need a working set of lowers and yet this seems impossible to source. Not willing to play the refund-and-repurchase game with CRC again because who knows how many times I'll need to do that.

Before I give up on Manitou entirely and retreat back to Rockshox, has anybody had any luck contacting them directly from the UK? I don't really understand how they can be happy letting all these defective forks out the door. Failing any kind of resolution from them, I'm a great example of the effects because why would I ever buy Manitou again after this?


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## s-master (May 15, 2018)

nova123 said:


> Hi again Mattoc gang.
> 
> CRC refunded my first fork so I bought another in the hope I might get one from a batch that doesnt have the bushing issue.
> 
> ...


I was in the same boat last year and the year before that. Bought a Mattoc online, there was a lot of play in the damper leg. I sent it to the EU distributor in Munchen, they said that everything looked as it should and sent it back to me. The problem was still there.
I went to our local distributor (local bike shop) and they immediately confirmed the issue. Left the fork there, they ordered new lowers from Manitou. New lowers still had a problem. Was riding it for some time and also the crown started creaking. 
Took the fork back to the LBS and Manitou exchanged the whole fork under warranty.

Somewhere in the middle of this, Manitou (in Munchen) actually accused me that I opened the fork myself, and screwed something up, because there were metal filings in it. According to them, you are not supposed to open the fork you if it is under waranty. ???
1. I didn't open the fork at all...
2. Even if I did, they have tons of videos on how to open it yourself, so they should not say that the warranty is void if you do.
3. WTF is with their production and the QC if there are metal filings in the brand new fork???

In the end, the new fork was no better, still a lot of play in the right leg. This whole process was 1 year long, so naturally, I had enough. Manitou in Munchen didn't want to refund me so I asked for a refund from a place I bought it from. But they denied me at first, saying I was not dealing with them directly so they can't verify my claims.

At the and I made a deal with the place I bought it from, that they refunded me 80% of the money I paid, and I gladly took it. Props to them.

Long story short, I would never buy a Manitou fork in the EU. Hayes distributors in Munchen are worse than useless(at least they were last year....) Too bad though, because I really liked the linearity of the IRT air spring and MC2 damper was also quite good.

If you are in the USA or Oceania on the other hand, according to this forum, it looks like there are some nice people, that could help you solve the issues if you encounter them.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The Mattoc bushing issue appears to be a batch problem. So taking a fork back and swapping it for another, or getting a lowers swap, may not fix the problem. You might get another set of lowers from the same batch.

The cure is to get someone to shim the bushing pocket, reinstall the bushing and burnish it to round.

We've done it to all affected forks that came to us for this. It's a permanent fix.

That said. Bushing play doesn't present as a knock. If you have a knock on the ABS+ Comp model that presents on sharp impacts or when compression damping is increased. Then that is caused by the ABS+ piston being slightly concave and the check shim popping in/out of that concave shape. Polishing the piston to flat fixes that.


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## kinsMT (Jul 18, 2011)

I've searched this thread, but I'm still not confident in an answer... Wondering the max width tire that can fit on this mattoc pro from CRC. The description says, "Designed with the Boost axle standard and to be used with 27.5" PLUS wheels." But from what I've read here, this is not the plus version of the fork? I'd like to be able to run 27.5 x 2.8-3.0" tires. Ideally it would also be great to fit a 29 x2.6, but not necessary.

Appreciate the help, this thread looks like a great resource.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kinsMT said:


> I've searched this thread, but I'm still not confident in an answer... Wondering the max width tire that can fit on this mattoc pro from CRC. The description says, "Designed with the Boost axle standard and to be used with 27.5" PLUS wheels." But from what I've read here, this is not the plus version of the fork? I'd like to be able to run 27.5 x 2.8-3.0" tires. Ideally it would also be great to fit a 29 x2.6, but not necessary.
> 
> Appreciate the help, this thread looks like a great resource.


Boost (not plus) forks have the hollow webbed arch design. Plus forks have the solid arch design like the original non-boost mattoc.

2.8" max in the non-plus. Officially 2.6 but 2.8 from some brands are okay.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

For curiosity's sake, does anyone have a Mattoc damper dyno? I saw the HBO one, but was unable to find any other.
As for tires- 2.6 I'd say is a realistic max, talking about true to size tires, some measure quite a bit less than what's printed on the side, 2.8 does technically fit (there are some photos in this thread) but it's a lot tighter than I'd be comfortable with, and you're not able to use a fender even with 2.6, with my square 2.4 it's pretty tight already.


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## nova123 (Feb 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The Mattoc bushing issue appears to be a batch problem. So taking a fork back and swapping it for another, or getting a lowers swap, may not fix the problem. You might get another set of lowers from the same batch.
> 
> The cure is to get someone to shim the bushing pocket, reinstall the bushing and burnish it to round.
> 
> ...


Yea no argument on the refund-and-replace risking the same issue and it's a workshop job to fix it properly. Issue is, I'm not willing to pay for someone to fix my defective fork and CRC isn't either. So refund and replace is all we have.

I refuse to believe that Manitou aren't aware they have a batch of dud forks and a set of distributors who can't or won't repair them. I've ended up sending them back again and got some lyriks instead.

I'd rather a set of Mezzers but no way I'm spending £750 on manitou in the UK with Manitous apparent manufacturering issues and dire support from crc


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## jaggittens (Oct 25, 2007)

These really are great forks...


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

OK guys, the bike shops are closed (some may never open again) so I need to ask this directly in here. How do you adjust the IRT? I have not added air to either valve yet. I just checked the bottom (supposedly) main positive air spring valve, it's weird looking, not a normal Schraeder one. Just making sure that's the main one you should add air to on the bottom of the fork. I need to ask dumb questions like this because I'm not very good at doing mechanical stuff for the first time. I mean, I've added air to other forks, don't get me wrong, but doing it on a new system, I want to get it right the first time and not screw up the fork, especially with nowhere to go to fix it right now because of the quarantine. 

The online review I read said the guy set the IRT to about twice the PSI as the main spring, in his case, he's 185 lbs and did 70 & 140 PSI. I'm 155 lbs so traditionally I've done 50-60 psi with 120mm, so I stick with around 55 psi main and 110 psi IRT, is that correct?

With my other Manitou Machete 120mm, that fork is exact. You up the compression one click, the travel is lowered about 10mm. That is linear all the way to the 8th click before lockout. It works very, very predictably. I see the dust rings at the hill bottom, they correlate exactly to what compression setting I used at the top of the hill before I went down, every single time. 

With the Mattoc, it's also exact if I press down on the handlebars; one click of more compression from either dial also lowers the travel about 10mm. That part is fine. But when I ride, I get to the hill bottom, look at the travel, and it's always at 60-100mm in the middle of the 160mm travel. Always. Doesn't matter if I max the slow compression and are one click away from max on fast compression, or if I open the slow all the way and fast is 2-3 clicks from open (about 1/2 open). Doesn't matter if I'm on a smooth XC trail or a chunky, steeper trail. Whatever trail, whatever obstacles, bumps, compression settings, it always ends up a max travel of 60-100mm out of 160mm. I don't ride very hard so I'm not surprised it tops out at 100mm. But why 60mm travel on smoother XC trails? The Machete would have traveled only 20-30mm with similar compression setting. Yes, I know the two systems are different but 20mm vs. 60mm of travel on the same smooth XC trail both one click away from max compression? Is that normal for a longer-travel fork? 

Do you think the main air PSI is too low or is it the IRT? Should I make sure the main spring is around 60 psi and IRT should be doubled to 120 psi? Try that first and then up one or the other (or both) PSI's if that doesn't help? And is this even a problem, or is it normal for longer-travel forks to dive down a lot more on hardpack than XC forks?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I have my fork at 170mm, weigh more than you at about 80kg (176lbs) and run 40 and 80 psi, (main and IRT).

I think you've got it much higher than you need. You make sure the main spring has been depressurized, then fill the IRT, then you fill the main spring. 
Dive will depend on LSC as well, I tend to run LSC closed (fully clockwise) and HSC one click from open (one click from fully anti clockwise) for most of my riding.

Edit, as for diving, I can't say. If I pull a stoppie from a decent speed I'd think I'd use close to half the travel, but I'm not really sure.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I was tired of hunting down a 6mm hex to take the axle out of this bothersome design, so I just glued in a 6mm hex key. Looks so pro.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

TylerVernon said:


> I was tired of hunting down a 6mm hex to take the axle out of this bothersome design, so I just glued in a 6mm hex key. Looks so pro.


Needs a picture. I have absolutely no issue with the quick release when the bike is upside down. But I can't for the life of me do it up with the bike in the stand. I've bought the non QR version. Just haven't fitted it yet.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> OK guys, the bike shops are closed (some may never open again) so I need to ask this directly in here. How do you adjust the IRT? I have not added air to either valve yet. I just checked the bottom (supposedly) main positive air spring valve, it's weird looking, not a normal Schraeder one. Just making sure that's the main one you should add air to on the bottom of the fork. I need to ask dumb questions like this because I'm not very good at doing mechanical stuff for the first time. I mean, I've added air to other forks, don't get me wrong, but doing it on a new system, I want to get it right the first time and not screw up the fork, especially with nowhere to go to fix it right now because of the quarantine.
> 
> The online review I read said the guy set the IRT to about twice the PSI as the main spring, in his case, he's 185 lbs and did 70 & 140 PSI. I'm 155 lbs so traditionally I've done 50-60 psi with 120mm, so I stick with around 55 psi main and 110 psi IRT, is that correct?
> 
> ...


The top air valve is the IRT, the weird looking one on the bottom is the main air valve. Setup procedure is fill IRT first, then set the main air spring pressure. Do NOT do it the other way around or you'll be chasing settings all day. I'm 150 lbs and run 50psi main, 100psi IRT on my 160mm travel Mattoc, but this is a pretty firm setup since that's what I prefer. It's not harsh or uncomfortable, but it's not a magic carpet ride or anything like that.

As for using travel, the Mattoc and Machete use different air spring and damper systems so they're not going to behave in the same way. The air spring curve is different and the damper curve is different as well. Because of the way they're tuned, long travel forks will go through the first 40-50mm of their travel a lot more easily than their short travel counterparts, that's just the way they work, it's normal.

Diving is hard to say. If I do a nose wheelie on pavement, the Mattoc will use up more travel than my 100mm fork, but on a percentage basis it's less.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

how short can you run the mattoc. I need a fork for building up a bike for the wife to use (nothing more than basic off roading). I have a fox 34 that I can put down to 110mm that would be almost perfect and a soon to be mattoc with my Mezzer arriving.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Any recommendations for tuning by Frequency with an IRT? In previous posts, I saw to set the main spring and IRT to the same PSI for identifying the correct base pressure using frequency. 

After that pressure is found, how do you adjust the Spring/IRT together? For example. I am running 160mm travel and weigh about 145. I identified 35psi as a good psi according to bouncing up and down looking for a natural frequency.

In old posts from Dougal, I saw recommendation for taking that base PSI and going -10psi for the main spring and +10 psi and make adjustments from there. But in more recent posts, I've seen much larger deltas between the main spring and IRT value.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

POAH said:


> how short can you run the mattoc. I need a fork for building up a bike for the wife to use (nothing more than basic off roading). I have a fox 34 that I can put down to 110mm that would be almost perfect and a soon to be mattoc with my Mezzer arriving.


110mm is no problem at all. You can space them down to no travel if you needed to. Air spring curve changes a bit with more negative. But it's not a big deal.



ashwinearl said:


> Any recommendations for tuning by Frequency with an IRT? In previous posts, I saw to set the main spring and IRT to the same PSI for identifying the correct base pressure using frequency.
> 
> After that pressure is found, how do you adjust the Spring/IRT together? For example. I am running 160mm travel and weigh about 145. I identified 35psi as a good psi according to bouncing up and down looking for a natural frequency.
> 
> In old posts from Dougal, I saw recommendation for taking that base PSI and going -10psi for the main spring and +10 psi and make adjustments from there. But in more recent posts, I've seen much larger deltas between the main spring and IRT value.


You can drop IRT pressure to zero and run it as a single for initial setup. Then once you've found a happy result start splitting it into main/IRT.

If 35 is working. Try 25psi main and 45psi IRT. Tune from there.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Dougal said:


> 110mm is no problem at all. You can space them down to no travel if you needed to. Air spring curve changes a bit with more negative. But it's not a big deal.


are the IVA spacers are the same as the travel spacers?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

POAH said:


> are the IVA spacers are the same as the travel spacers?


Yes. These ones here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/121-29113-travel-spacer-10-mm-thick-10-mm-shaft-manitou.html


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Yes. These ones here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/121-29113-travel-spacer-10-mm-thick-10-mm-shaft-manitou.html


cheers - got enough then to adjust the travel.


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## lachman (Jan 29, 2019)

Dougal said:


> 110mm is no problem at all. You can space them down to no travel if you needed to. Air spring curve changes a bit with more negative. But it's not a big deal.


How would a 26 Mattoc 1 handle Dirt jump duties at 100mm? Would it need a damper retune?


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## kenmitch (May 3, 2020)

Newb when it comes to this stuff.

Mattoc Pro, 1, 2, 3 is this just the evolution over the years? 

I ordered a new Mattoc Pro (27.5 non boost, 160mm) for a upcoming build and was just wondering what I wound up with. Said it's a 2019 model year so I'm assuming it's a 3? 

I wasn't looking for a flashy red fork, but for $299 shipped I quickly got over it.

I guess I'm also wondering if these come with the mud guard out of the box.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

If it's got black stanchions then it's 2 or 3, pro 2 comes stock with IVA, pro 3 comes with IRT, if the stanchions are gold, then it's Pro first gen, it comes neither with IVA nor IRT and has old "high friction seals" but it wouldn't be 2019 production then.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

lachman said:


> How would a 26 Mattoc 1 handle Dirt jump duties at 100mm? Would it need a damper retune?


Honestly, the HBO with the IRT makes a very stout fork that is incredibly hard to bottom out. With that said, the Mattoc is still a pretty light fork.


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## kenmitch (May 3, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> If it's got black stanchions then it's 2 or 3, pro 2 comes stock with IVA, pro 3 comes with IRT, if the stanchions are gold, then it's Pro first gen, it comes neither with IVA nor IRT and has old "high friction seals" but it wouldn't be 2019 production then.


Image shows black stanchions, description says IRT.

I guess I'll find out in a day or two or three....Dang UPS here is doing the jerk around lately. Track item > On truck > Out for delivery > Never comes > Rinse and repeat a day or two....At least that's how my frame purchase went which originally was shipped around 80 or so miles away from me. Norm would be next day with ground service.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

kenmitch said:


> Image shows black stanchions, description says IRT.
> 
> I guess I'll find out in a day or two or three....Dang UPS here is doing the jerk around lately. Track item > On truck > Out for delivery > Never comes > Rinse and repeat a day or two....At least that's how my frame purchase went which originally was shipped around 80 or so miles away from me. Norm would be next day with ground service.


I believe the three also has the bolt on sl axle the one and two had the qr axle


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

*Just got this*









I just got these, any advice on where to find how much PSI to put into the IRT and the main chamber? I weigh about as much as a stick (58kg or about 130 pounds). Really stoked to put these on the bike and test it out, just gotta wait for my 15mm conversion kit for my hub.


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## kenmitch (May 3, 2020)

006_007 said:


> I believe the three also has the bolt on sl axle the one and two had the qr axle


Looks like the 3 is what I wound up getting.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> Needs a picture. I have absolutely no issue with the quick release when the bike is upside down. But I can't for the life of me do it up with the bike in the stand. I've bought the non QR version. Just haven't fitted it yet.


Just imagine a 6mm hex key sticking out of the fork with a glob of 5 minute clear epoxy around the base.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Mattoc identification guide here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/forks/find-your-fork/manitou-mattoc


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I must have a Mattoc addiction. I just ordered another Pro this one in orange on an incredible sale. My last one sat in the box for years where I would just look at it now and then. It's finally on a bike.


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## kenmitch (May 3, 2020)

ashwinearl said:


> I must have a Mattoc addiction. I just ordered another Pro this one in orange on an incredible sale. My last one sat in the box for years where I would just look at it now and then. It's finally on a bike.


Nah....Your just doing your part to stimulate the economy is all.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

ashwinearl said:


> I must have a Mattoc addiction. I just ordered another Pro this one in orange on an incredible sale. My last one sat in the box for years where I would just look at it now and then. It's finally on a bike.


29? boost?

link please ?


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## col.tello (Mar 18, 2020)

*ABS+ rebound shim stack tuning*

@Dougal, is there a rebound shim stack tuning guide for the ABS+ damper?
I know you are usually not supposed to thinker with the rebound stack, but since I'm 220lbs, running high pressure i don't feel any variation in behaviour when turning the rebound knob.
To be honest, I felt close to nothing even at lower pressures (30-50ish psi).

Yesterday I took apart the rebound assembly to check whether all was placed fine: it seems so. 
Since I was there I removed the middle small diameter preload shim between the two larger one (I made the same with the compression stack going from the "minimal platform trail" CV-11711-01 to "increased platform" EK-012611-01.
It seems the rebound is a little bit more sensitive now. 
I would have liked to made it slower, but since the Mattoc Comp has only like 8 clicks of adjustment I had the fear I could not speed it up anymore via the knob. 
Also, playing with the rebound shim stack is not that easy as you have to completely tear the fork apart, and I didn't want to risk opening the fork again.


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

Hi,
I weigh about 60kg with my riding gear and I usually ride flowy trails on my hardtail. I can't seem to find what PSI I need to put in my mattoc pro because there is no sticker indicating it on the fork. I can't wait to try out the IRT as well and I've heard that I am meant to put the IRT 1.7-2.1 times the amount that is in the main chamber. If anyone could send me a link or a picture of some sort of chart that would be super helpful.

Thanks : )


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Manitou+mattoc+air+pressure+chart


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## Kadath (Mar 13, 2017)

So I've tried researching this thread but I'm getting conflicting information about 27.5" forks fitting 29" wheels. Some say that if it's 27.5" PLUS, then it will work BUT would be called magnum. How about this fork on wiggle which is not called magnum but says compatible with 27.5" PLUS in the description?
https://www.wiggle.com/manitou-mattoc-pro-forks-boost-1/

Seemingly the same fork is also available on CRC with the same 27.5" PLUS in the description, but in the specs it's only listed as 27.5", not PLUS.

I'm hoping for a great cheap fork for my 29er with DHF 2.3 tire. Too good to be true probably?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Magnum is called magnum no longer, it's all Mattoc now


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Manitou+mattoc+air+pressure+chart


Thanks very much but I can't find a chart for the IRT, is there a specific chart for it or do you just pump it up to whatever? I've never had a Mattoc before so sorry if it's a stupid question


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## Kadath (Mar 13, 2017)

Ok, so how can I tell whether it's 27.5 PLUS or just regular 27.5? I've read that the 27.5 PLUS maxes out at 140mm, is that outdated information as well?

Hopefully someone that actually bought that particular fork can chime in. I asked the question directly on CRC's web page but didn't get an answer.


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

Kadath said:


> Ok, so how can I tell whether it's 27.5 PLUS or just regular 27.5? I've read that the 27.5 PLUS maxes out at 140mm, is that outdated information as well?
> 
> Hopefully someone that actually bought that particular fork can chime in. I asked the question directly on CRC's web page but didn't get an answer.


I don't have the fork but if its plus then the tire width clearance should be a lot bigger, also manitou has the fork directly on their site https://hayesbicycle.com/collection...ered-steerer-15mm-axle?variant=32139624710189
hopefully, that helps in some way or other


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just make sure to pressurize the IRT with no pressure in main, you can start with data from the chart in main and +10 psi in IRT, twice the pressure in IRT or whatever really, if you set both the same- it's like there was no IRT at all, main pressure defines start of the stroke and IRT pressure affects mid to end stroke support, you need to tinker a bit to find a sweet spot for your riding style and terrain.


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Just make sure to pressurize the IRT with no pressure in main, you can start with data from the chart in main and +10 psi in IRT, twice the pressure in IRT or whatever really, if you set both the same- it's like there was no IRT at all, main pressure defines start of the stroke and IRT pressure affects mid to end stroke support, you need to tinker a bit to find a sweet spot for your riding style and terrain.


That's so cool, thanks very much I cant wait to start messing around with it, just gotta wait on hub ends and I'm ready to go


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## Kadath (Mar 13, 2017)

Just got confirmation from Zac at Hayes support that the fork on sale at CRC/Wiggle is regular 27.5", not PLUS. I'll keep looking for a deal on a 29" model.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

col.tello said:


> @Dougal, is there a rebound shim stack tuning guide for the ABS+ damper?
> I know you are usually not supposed to thinker with the rebound stack, but since I'm 220lbs, running high pressure i don't feel any variation in behaviour when turning the rebound knob.
> To be honest, I felt close to nothing even at lower pressures (30-50ish psi).
> 
> ...


There is no rebound tuning guide as it's fork specific. The compression damping however works in all forks because they're all using the same 1/2" shaft.

Go ahead and add more rebound shims if you need them.



LeQu said:


> Hi,
> I weigh about 60kg with my riding gear and I usually ride flowy trails on my hardtail. I can't seem to find what PSI I need to put in my mattoc pro because there is no sticker indicating it on the fork. I can't wait to try out the IRT as well and I've heard that I am meant to put the IRT 1.7-2.1 times the amount that is in the main chamber. If anyone could send me a link or a picture of some sort of chart that would be super helpful.
> 
> Thanks : )


Start with both chambers the same pressure, find a pressure that works and then start increasing the split if you need more second half support.

i.e. 50psi in both, then 40/60psi, then 30/70 etc. Go too far and it gets too progressive.


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## Kadath (Mar 13, 2017)

Ok, a bit of a crazy idea. Is it possible to swap the lowers from a 27.5 fork to 29 lowers? It'd kill two birds with one stone because I could buy the cheap 27.5 fork on sale at CRC, make it work with my 29 wheels and also benefit from the higher travel the 27.5 offers.

If that's not practical, is it possible to increase travel on the 29 to 150 mm by using the 27.5 air piston assembly?


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## jaggittens (Oct 25, 2007)

deleted


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## jaggittens (Oct 25, 2007)

deleted


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok with the certainty of looking quite silly here goes:


I’m going to get the bushing of my Mattoc pro looked at. While doing so I perhaps want to get the rebound checked. The following is the case.

When I installed the high flow piston I was not careful enough on reassembly and jammed one of the shims between it and the next part causing a loss in all rebound damping. I then opened it up again found the problem and realigned the shim. However the shim had gotten slightly jammed and was not completely flat anymore. I tried to flatten it as well as I could and reinstalled it.

Now the “problem” I’m having. When I dial the rebound so it’s is well controlled on bumps (about 4 clicks from fully open) the fork looses all it’s “poppiness” and the bike become quite tame and unbalanced in that regard. If I open up the rebound completely there is some “pop” to the fork’s feel but obviously insufficient control over bumps.

Can this behaviour be caused by the dented shim against the high flow piston and if so does somebody know the dimensions of the shim by heart so I can get it replaced in one go when I get the bushings checked for play?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I know that my rebound damping shims are .1mm thick, so is the check plate shim, the inside and outside dimensions you can measure even with a ruler, I don't remember those. Not sure about the "playfulness" or whatever you want to call it, in my case only increasing the mid stroke support makes the fork more poppy, less rebound damping to some extent too, but as you mentioned it's not ideal, I'm running around 20% sag to get the best balance of stability+ pop and comfort, but I'm a pretty aggressive rider and don't have IRT yet.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks. The guy I'm bringing the fork to Wednesday wants it in one piece to check how the play feels still assembled. If someone would know the inner and outer diameter of the check plate shim I won't have to open up the whole fork just for the dimensions and check with him if he has that shim in stock to replace it right away when he's doing the bushings.

To describe a bit better the behaviour (76kg without gear):

- When I pushed and release the handlebars the rebound is plenty quick 4 clicks from open (bordering on too quick).
- When riding and I pre-jump a drop for instance the rear rebound seems at least twice as quick while the front feels like it doesn't want to decompress at all.

Maybe I'm blaming a springrate problem on the rebound? I generally set my springrate by feel, and having 0.5-1cm to spare on the sag indicator when I've not bottomed hard on that ride. IRT ratio is 1.85.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That definitely sounds like a front-rear spring rate or rebound imbalance, your rebound adjustment sounds to be working properly imo. You might also be leaning back too far or pulling with your hands instead of preloading properly, but there is no way for me to guess (from my experience "dead sailor" riding is the most often cause of such behavior, after that very large difference in front to back spring rate, mainly much harder rear shock than front)
Good enough way imo to check the balance is to try and compress the suspension front and rear without leaving the ground and compare how much travel you used, the percentage should be similar.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> That definitely sounds like a front-rear spring rate or rebound imbalance, your rebound adjustment sounds to be working properly imo. You might also be leaning back too far or pulling with your hands instead of preloading properly, but there is no way for me to guess (from my experience "dead sailor" riding is the most often cause of such behavior, after that very large difference in front to back spring rate, mainly much harder rear shock than front)
> Good enough way imo to check the balance is to try and compress the suspension front and rear without leaving the ground and compare how much travel you used, the percentage should be similar.


Thanks I will check. I can say that when testing a different bike the other day the front end of that bike was much much easier to get airborne so it's more like set up error than rider error.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Where in the USA can I get some travel spacers?


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

*Lets say i want to go into the hi-speed setting when do i know im in it?*









I don't see any indicator showing that's where to twist it to go into that setting. Where do I twist it to so that I'm in that setting? Please go easy on me I'm still new to the fork today was my 1st time out on it and it feels amazing


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## mmarkey (Apr 26, 2019)

TylerVernon said:


> Where in the USA can I get some travel spacers?


E-mail Manitou, they're based in the US and can ship you the spare parts.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

LeQu said:


> View attachment 1338561
> 
> 
> I don't see any indicator showing that's where to twist it to go into that setting.


The black HSC dial will have four clicks. All the way anti clockwise is open, then there are four clicks clockwise, increasing your HSC.


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

Mudguard said:


> The black HSC dial will have four clicks. All the way anti clockwise is open, then there are four clicks clockwise, increasing your HSC.


But what about the multi, hi-speed etc. settings, how do i know that I'm in that setting? where does it have to be turned so that I'm in that setting


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

mmarkey said:


> E-mail Manitou, they're based in the US and can ship you the spare parts.


I emailed them Monday and haven't heard back.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

LeQu said:


> But what about the multi, hi-speed etc. settings, how do i know that I'm in that setting? where does it have to be turned so that I'm in that setting


Dougal will chime in as he's the expert. The red is your low speed, it has four clicks. The black ring is your high speed. Four clicks again. Inside the high speed knob is your HBC or bottom out control. I can't recall how many clicks it has as I have mine on one from open (one from fully anti clockwise). 
From memory the HSC has no effect unless the LSC is fully closed (which yours looks to be in your picture).
This is a good guide. And is on page two of this thread.


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## MattMark1992 (Jun 5, 2020)

*Travel increase?*

Hey, new to the forum and hopefully someone can help me out. 
I've got a Mattoc pro gen 3 fork and I tried to extend the travel which hasn't given me the results I was looking for. I've taken out the reducers (was only one) which extended the length of the stanchion but didnt increase the amount of useable travel. So I can measure from top out to bottom of the crown at 170mm and with no air it bottoms out at 140mm of travel which is same as before I removed the 1 travel token from the air shaft. 
There is one thing I noticed in the Hayes video (



) which my fork has and is in the service manual but the video doesn't is tokens on the bottom of the internal shafts (my attached photos). I've removed these and checked travel again but i'm still stuck at bottom out at 140mm, so i'm not sure what i'm missing and why i can't increase the travel?

Thanks in advance


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

Mudguard said:


> Dougal will chime in as he's the expert. The red is your low speed, it has four clicks. The black ring is your high speed. Four clicks again. Inside the high speed knob is your HBC or bottom out control. I can't recall how many clicks it has as I have mine on one from open (one from fully anti clockwise).
> From memory the HSC has no effect unless the LSC is fully closed (which yours looks to be in your picture).
> This is a good guide. And is on page two of this thread.
> 
> View attachment 1339067


Ahhhh I completely forgot about that chart. I'm such an idiot haha I should have just looked at that sorry. I only recently installed the fork because I had to wait on some hub adaptors but still need to dial it in, still feels amazing though haha


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## LeQu (Apr 28, 2020)

*So I just set up my suspension and as i took out the pump half a teaspoon fell out*









Is this bad or what? It was a very small amount id say no more than half a teaspoon so id say 2ml or so. I took all the air out of the main chamber pumped the irt up and then pumped up the main chamber. When I take the air cap off the main chamber there is a small amount of that liquid in the cap and around the nut for the main chamber. Is this normal?
Thanks in advance


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## BrintaVett (Jun 5, 2020)

Hi all,

I ride a Salsa El Mar 2016 with a Minute TS Air fork which I decided to upgrade to a Mattoc Pro 3, it's the 100mm 27.5"+/29" boost version with manufacturing date November 2017. 

I've read most of this thread to get a bit familiar with the fork up front, have all service gear incoming so I can take care of the fork myself. 

Just wondering if there are known issues with Mattoc Pro's from that manufacturing period or can I just slap it on and start riding it (apart from the usual stuff)? Thanks in advance!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

MattMark1992 said:


> Hey, new to the forum and hopefully someone can help me out.
> I've got a Mattoc pro gen 3 fork and I tried to extend the travel which hasn't given me the results I was looking for. I've taken out the reducers (was only one) which extended the length of the stanchion but didnt increase the amount of useable travel. So I can measure from top out to bottom of the crown at 170mm and with no air it bottoms out at 140mm of travel which is same as before I removed the 1 travel token from the air shaft.
> There is one thing I noticed in the Hayes video (
> 
> ...


Did you pull the fork to full travel before removing the pump? Your fork is also non-boost if you have the spacers on the bottom of the shafts. That fork can only do 170mm in 26" mode. 27" mode is 160mm max.



LeQu said:


> View attachment 1339231
> 
> 
> Is this bad or what? It was a very small amount id say no more than half a teaspoon so id say 2ml or so. I took all the air out of the main chamber pumped the irt up and then pumped up the main chamber. When I take the air cap off the main chamber there is a small amount of that liquid in the cap and around the nut for the main chamber. Is this normal?
> Thanks in advance


Time to service and also upgrade the end-cap seals to 10x3 metric orings. It will greatly reduce the oil ingestion rate, but there will always be some.



BrintaVett said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I ride a Salsa El Mar 2016 with a Minute TS Air fork which I decided to upgrade to a Mattoc Pro 3, it's the 100mm 27.5"+/29" boost version with manufacturing date November 2017.
> 
> ...


Only real issue is the loose bushings.


----------



## BrintaVett (Jun 5, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Only real issue is the loose bushings.


Could I be lucky or is it a fact that the fork has loose bushings?


----------



## MattMark1992 (Jun 5, 2020)

Hey Dougal, thanks for the reply. It's a non boost, 27.5 fork to clarify. I definitely pulled to full travel, so theres no spacers left in the top of the air shaft and still bottoms out at the 140mm with it fully extended
Also so those spacers at the bottom of the air shaft in the photo, they need to be there then? I took them out to see if it would make a difference as it was the last resort to trying to achieve more travel.


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## BrintaVett (Jun 5, 2020)

BrintaVett said:


> Could I be lucky or is it a fact that the fork has loose bushings?


I installed it yesterday and took it for a spin today (commute). Difference with Minute TS Air is night and day. Figured if the fork has bad bushing placement I'll only know when it gets used. Super happy that I bit the bullit on the Mattoc Pro.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Learned an important lesson about bike setup today- having too low tire pressure can mean using more travel in the fork 
I used to run 15 psi in the front tire and was bottoming out the rim on hucks to flat, only realized that when I saw a video, upped it to 18 and not only is the noise gone (it feels smoother too) but I have a little bit of spare travel instead of using all of it on every landing


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

51 pages and 5000+ posts! Wow, I know its in here but theres so much to sort I cant find it. 

Where did everyone end up with IRT tuning? Still 150% of the main pressure? Anyone have a quick reference for the post #'s where the irt tuning is discussed?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> 51 pages and 5000+ posts! Wow, I know its in here but theres so much to sort I cant find it.
> 
> Where did everyone end up with IRT tuning? Still 150% of the main pressure? Anyone have a quick reference for the post #'s where the irt tuning is discussed?


Less aggressive riding 1.5x main pressure. More aggressive riding 2x main pressure. Really aggressive 3x main pressure.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Less aggressive riding 1.5x main pressure. More aggressive riding 2x main pressure. Really aggressive 3x main pressure.


Dougal, in reading through this years long thread, I've seen you change your approach to main spring/ IRT. More recently, you had a much lower main air pressure combined with higher multiplier on the IRT.

When considering these guidelines of 1.5x, 2x, 3x of main pressure, does that also imply that the main pressure goes down for each one of these settings. Or is it the same main air pressure and IRT multiplier just goes up for the aggressiveness of riding?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Im surprised 3x is being used! I feel better about my 1.5 not quite working out. 

I think you can only drop the main pressure so much, maybe not a linear decrease? Im going to slightly drop my main and significantly increase the IRT. 2x sounds good. Thanks!


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I've been taking notes from this post over the years of Dougal's settings. Here are some I had written down Main/IRT. I think he is at 160mm but not sure.

40/60
40/80
35/85 LSC closed or 1 click open, No HSC.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I've been taking notes from this post over the years of Dougal's settings. Here are some I had written down Main/IRT. I think he is at 160mm but not sure.

40/60
40/80
35/85 LSC closed or 1 click open, No HSC.


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## rcracer2 (Nov 12, 2014)

Do any of the manitou + forks clear a 26 x 4" fat tire like the fox 'k' fork does?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

rcracer2 said:


> Do any of the manitou + forks clear a 26 x 4" fat tire like the fox 'k' fork does?


I think the Mastodon is what you're looking for.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> Im surprised 3x is being used! I feel better about my 1.5 not quite working out.
> 
> I think you can only drop the main pressure so much, maybe not a linear decrease? Im going to slightly drop my main and significantly increase the IRT. 2x sounds good. Thanks!


It all depends how progressive you want the fork to be. It's fun experimenting with it.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I honestly don't really like progressive forks. I'm trying to set mine up firm, and riding high. 

I set it to 65/120 last ride, and it's really good. Close to perfect I think. 60/120 comes next. 

I noticed the expert to pro upgrade parts are discontinued, so that's a bummer. Might jump ship to a mezzer.


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## Shlec (Jan 21, 2018)

Has anyone heard any rumours about new updates to the mattoc at all?
Its been awhile since Manitou released V3 with the webbed bracing on the lowers and manitou have recently release other forks with similar branding to the mezzer with the vertical writing. 

So i am thinking the Mattoc is next 

It would be awesome to see the Mattoc with a 34mm or 35mm stanchions. If Manitou made them 35mm they would probably be as stiff as fox 36's which would be a great marketing ploy. 

I love my mattocs and I have never really felt that there too flexy. With most brands esp fox plugging large diameter stanchions = stiffer = better, which i think its mostly a marketing ploy but thats the trend so Manitou may follow suit?

Thoughts?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shlec said:


> Has anyone heard any rumours about new updates to the mattoc at all?
> Its been awhile since Manitou released V3 with the webbed bracing on the lowers and manitou have recently release other forks with similar branding to the mezzer with the vertical writing.
> 
> So i am thinking the Mattoc is next
> ...


Give the engineers a chance to breathe! They've just got the XC/Trail forks out.

The Mezzer has already beaten the F36 for stiffness at the same weight and beats the F38 by weight by 20%. There's no need to crowd that out further.

Fork stiffness is crown, brace and axle design. Stanchion size is a real minor player. Everyone else is going big in fork tubes to stop E-bikes making the forks look small. Like the opposite of fat girls wanting tall boyfriends.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Give the engineers a chance to breathe! They've just got the XC/Trail forks out.
> 
> The Mezzer has already beaten the F36 for stiffness at the same weight and beats the F38 by weight by 20%. There's no need to crowd that out further.
> 
> Fork stiffness is crown, brace and axle design. Stanchion size is a real minor player. Everyone else is going big in fork tubes to stop E-bikes making the forks look small. Like the opposite of fat girls wanting tall boyfriends.


Agreed, they definitely won't see a stanchion diameter change.

In the future, I expect a Mattoc pro with Mezzer pro damper tech, but that will not happen for a while, too many other projects to finish up.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

The mattoc already has 34mm stanchions. I would kind of hate to see them retool everything and raise the price to add one millimeter of stanchion diameter. I think 34mm is a solid size.

I think an external reservoir mcleod would have been cool.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Agreed, they definitely won't see a stanchion diameter change.
> 
> In the future, I expect a Mattoc pro with Mezzer pro damper tech, but that will not happen for a while, too many other projects to finish up.


One of the first things I did upon getting a Mezzer damper was test it fits inside a Mattoc stanchion.

It does.


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## fredmeade (Jun 25, 2020)

just bought a manitou mattoc 27.5 boost 130mm... off of ebay I weigh 210 and am not sure how to set it up. I ride cross country


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Removed, wrong topic after login, wtf.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Anybody have any suggestions on why my fork wont fully extend? It seems to not extend the last 10mm or so unless I pull it by hand. Its as if the fork was partially compressed while inflating it, resulting in a greater negative spring charge (it wasnt). It may just be excessive stiction that the air spring simply cant overcome, but a gentle tug gives full extension..

The difficult part is that this is a Manitou Magnum that's been stretched to 150 (well, 148 actually) by replacing the 28mm spacer with a 20mm one. Everything clears fine, of course. With both legs loosened, the fork body isn't binding, and both the air spring and damper are smooth throughout their full range motion. I just pulled the fork apart again to double check everything, and aside from a slightly overfilled damper (still factory oil) everything seems fine. 

Does this sound like the bushings are toast, or crooked? Or does extending it those extra 8mm throw off the negative spring air port? Looking back, I think the fork did this at 140mm travel too, but was less noticeable since it was nearly topped out.

I'm about 230 ride weight, and I'm running about 60 psi main and 100 psi IRT.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...


EDIT:

Upon further inspection, the stiction happens when the stanchion ends interface with the lower bushings. It happens to both legs individually. Its as if the very end of the stanchions are a slightly larger diameter. Maybe from over torquing the caps?


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## Robust2 (Jun 12, 2019)

I saw the Mattoc 27.5 boost fork on Bike-Discount for quite cheap and got interested as a possible upgrade for my Recon RL (with black stanchions), but after reading the topic I'm quite weary. First of all it's coming mislabeled as they sell it as a Mattoc Pro, while clearly a Comp. Second this generation/batch of forks seem to have a lot of issues with the bushings and the European distributors not being very helpful? 
Guess that's why it's so discounted, but quite a shame if it's otherwise a good fork..


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Robust2 said:


> I saw the Mattoc 27.5 boost fork on Bike-Discount for quite cheap and got interested as a possible upgrade for my Recon RL (with black stanchions), but after reading the topic I'm quite weary. First of all it's coming mislabeled as they sell it as a Mattoc Pro, while clearly a Comp. Second this generation/batch of forks seem to have a lot of issues with the bushings and the European distributors not being very helpful?
> Guess that's why it's so discounted, but quite a shame if it's otherwise a good fork..


Even the Comp is an excellent fork and likely worlds better than a Recon. I'm not really seeing many posts about bushing issues.

I have a Comp on my cheap hardtail and am extremely impressed with how well it does. It very much feels like a more expensive fork.


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

So this MY21 has only updated decals?
https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/forks/products/my21mattocpro_z


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

muddy_pl said:


> So this MY21 has only updated decals?
> https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/forks/products/my21mattocpro_z


Looks like some minor updates on damper knobs and IRT? I ordered one last week and should get it tomorrow. I will post some pics!


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

NOS_ATX said:


> Looks like some minor updates on damper knobs and IRT? I ordered one last week and should get it tomorrow. I will post some pics!


Yes this knobs looks different, but description under item is the same like my20.
Would be nice to see what you'll get. Updated Mattoc should be perfect for my new mid travel:thumbsup:


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

GuitsBoy said:


> Anybody have any suggestions on why my fork wont fully extend? It seems to not extend the last 10mm or so unless I pull it by hand.


Welp, you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

I attempted to pull the lower fork bushings up the leg by 10mm to see if I could get the fork to slide any better. But it seems the bushings are in a slight recess channel in the fork in order to keep them located. I couldn't fit the fork leg through once the bushing had moved. I pushed the bushing back into its original location, and the upper stanchion now fits, but I must have deformed the something, and now the bushing is very tight. So much for playing mad scientist in my garage.

Anyway, I took this opportunity to order up a new mezzer.

Rather than simply turn the old magnum 27.5+ into a piece of garage wall art, I took a $47 gamble that I might be able to get a pair of 29+ magnum lower legs to fit on the 27.5+ CSU. I have nothing that makes me think this will work, but I do have a drawer full of miscellaneous spacers and a whole lot of practice disassembling and reassembling this fork. If I can get it to work, even with reduced travel, I'll certainly find a use for it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GuitsBoy said:


> Welp, you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
> 
> I attempted to pull the lower fork bushings up the leg by 10mm to see if I could get the fork to slide any better. But it seems the bushings are in a slight recess channel in the fork in order to keep them located. I couldn't fit the fork leg through once the bushing had moved. I pushed the bushing back into its original location, and the upper stanchion now fits, but I must have deformed the something, and now the bushing is very tight. So much for playing mad scientist in my garage.
> 
> ...


29+ uses the same stanchion length and spacing as the 27+. You could do it with shorter travel and appropriate bottom-out spacing.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

muddy_pl said:


> Yes this knobs looks different, but description under item is the same like my20.
> Would be nice to see what you'll get. Updated Mattoc should be perfect for my new mid travel:thumbsup:


I am replacing my Minute Pro. Been using ABS+ for 10 years lol (Marvel Pro before). The Mattoc Pro will be a huge update for me too.


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> 29+ uses the same stanchion length and spacing as the 27+. You could do it with shorter travel and appropriate bottom-out spacing.


Awesome, thanks Dougal. I was hoping the difference in CSUs was only the offset. I have a nice short travel 29er that could use this fork at 120mm travel. I appreciate the info.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I just have to say, finally gotten around to buying IRT, its a total game changer... With standard air spring, running all the IVA spacers, I was unable to get desired mid and end stroke support, had to run way oversprung for my weight (60psi) so it was harsh on small bumps, and was still using full travel too easily, on singular large impacts the damper took care of that, but when landing on roots it was really harsh (no travel left)
With IRT I'm able to run a nice and supple beginning stroke (around 25% sag) and still have a lot more mid and end stroke support than before, its like having a totally different fork! And if i were to want an even more comfortable ride I could just let a bit of air out from IRT for more linear travel (running 50/120 atm, 140mm travel with a bit larger neg volume than standard, 55kg aggressive rider)


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

Got my MY21 Mattoc Pro today. New retro-style decal and slightly updated knobs. Don's think anything else is (need to be) changed. I am glad that I finally pulled the trigger. I have been wanting a Mattoc since 2014 but got my Minute Pro (which I wanted for a long time too since my first meaningful fork was a used Minute 1:00) just before they released Mattoc.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Damn it looks good, seems like the knobs are lower profile, did they change the crown design too? Lower a2c mayby? Wonder when they'll appear on CRC  Also wondering if there will ever be a longer travel Mattoc for 29" wheels, at my (55kg) weight I don't necessarily need such a burly fork as the Mezzer (and there is the cost, Mezzer is a high end option) but I am planning on building something 29" 160mm+ cause 130 is starting to feel a little short


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

NOS_ATX said:


> Got my MY21 Mattoc Pro today. New retro-style decal and slightly updated knobs...


Looks great, I wish the Mezzer bottom of the leg side decals were more that stealth style.


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

NOS_ATX said:


> Got my MY21 Mattoc Pro today. New retro-style decal and slightly updated knobs. Don's think anything else is (need to be) changed. I am glad that I finally pulled the trigger. I have been wanting a Mattoc since 2014 but got my Minute Pro (which I wanted for a long time too since my first meaningful fork was a used Minute 1:00) just before they released Mattoc.


So nice  Is this 29? Can you put it in scale?
Cheers, have fun!


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Damn it looks good, seems like the knobs are lower profile, did they change the crown design too? Lower a2c mayby? Wonder when they'll appear on CRC  Also wondering if there will ever be a longer travel Mattoc for 29" wheels, at my (55kg) weight I don't necessarily need such a burly fork as the Mezzer (and there is the cost, Mezzer is a high end option) but I am planning on building something 29" 160mm+ cause 130 is starting to feel a little short


I am not a dealer but I don't think there are any other changes. Personally I will choose Mezzer over Mattoc for a 160mm 29er, and Mezzer is on sale now lol. My bike is a 2014 GT sensor 650B and I will set the fork to 140mm.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

muddy_pl said:


> So nice  Is this 29? Can you put it in scale?
> Cheers, have fun!


It's a non-boost 27.5. Don't have a scale with me but I doubt there is any weight change.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My heart is broken now... The fork works so well, a specialty with IRT, but even after giving it a new set of seals, a new air piston and a new stanchion to seal against, the fork still lost 10mm of travel... Granted, this was after 10000m or so vertical of rough descent, but still... Mayby honing the walls would help, I don't know, I guess I'll just live with it and reset the chambers every day in the mountains, in my local flattish area it's no issue as it can go for months without noticeable suck down.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Took it apart again, unfortunately there are micro scratches on the stanchion, where there was none before, no debris found inside, the pump is clean (I'm using it for McLeod too and no wear there) I'm still confused as to how such small imperfections can cause air to get through- I cannot feel those with my finger, but I think I found the reason for the scratches- the 4mm hex disassembly method is what has to be killing my fork, every time I turn the shaft, there are small flakes of material that are created in the shredder port, then as I pump the fork up, some of the anodising flakes had to have gotten inside the chamber, slowly eating away at the stanchion as the fork cycles... I'm really mad at myself now


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

The hex key thing rubbed me wrong when I first saw it. Thats too bad your fork got damaged, I didnt think that would happen. 

If anyone wants a quick and cheesy way to make the 8mm thin wall, go swing by a parts store and pickup whatever cheap 8mm 1/4 drive long hex socket they have on the shelf. They're usually 2-3 bucks.

You can grind them down from here, but its tempered and hardened already. It takes forever. So heat up the hex side of the socket with a propane torch to bright, glowing red and let it air cool (dont dip it in water). This removes the temper. Now you can toss the whole socket in a drill and grind it down thinner. Since the temper is gone, you can use anything abrasive, even normal sand paper will cut it fairly quick. If you happen to have a mill file, that'll do it fastest, but most people have sand paper and no files. Sand until the wall is thin enough to fit the fork. Dont worry about the temper, it works fine. 

I already had a top cap socket, and I slotted a $8 cassette tool... so I made my own "service kit" for around $10 instead of the $65 manitou wanted. Manitous price isnt really that bad, but I was impatient and didnt want to wait for shipping.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

reduced my mattoc's down to 100mm for my pump track bike.

work pretty well.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Basically a circus with one bottom bumper instead of 2


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## mlodski (Jul 12, 2020)

Does anyone know where can I buy rebound rod or rebound assembly for Mattoc Pro 2 27.5?
Almost every single web store shows that those are out of stock. Maybe there is any replacement available? Due to the bad quality allen key my rebound hex screw was stripped really bad and I will probably have to replace whole rebound rod.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

NOS_ATX said:


> Got my MY21 Mattoc Pro today. New retro-style decal and slightly updated knobs. Don's think anything else is (need to be) changed. I am glad that I finally pulled the trigger. I have been wanting a Mattoc since 2014 but got my Minute Pro (which I wanted for a long time too since my first meaningful fork was a used Minute 1:00) just before they released Mattoc.


Is that the 29? What does it weigh?


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## sukoto66 (Jul 7, 2020)

*2017 Mattoc Expert 160mm only getting 97mm travel*

Good day fellow Mattoc owners. I recently bought a used bike that came with 2017 Mattoc expert forks (27.5") and according to the sticker on the lower leg they are supposed to have 160mm travel. I have about 60psi pressure in them and the compression dials turned all the way down so they are very squishy and I can only get about 3 5/8" or 97mm of travel out of them. 
Is this a known problem with these forks? Could the previous owner have modified them to only run at 100mm? If so, how can I change that? I ordered the Manitou tool set for the fork so I can take them apart and make any adjustments (within reason).

I included some pics below showing the exposed stanchion length (max 5 1/4"), the travel indicator ring after compressing the fork as hard as I could and the model sticker.

I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction because I really like this fork and don't want to have to replace it.

Thanks in advance.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Did you read the manual? You need to connect a pump and let the fork extend (pick the wheel up)also while you're there you can compress the fork fully to see how much travel is it set at.


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## sukoto66 (Jul 7, 2020)

Simple as that. The guy I bought the bike from must have shortened the travel due to having a short front brake line. I just deflated the fork and extended the legs and now they are at 160mm. That's crazy! Thank you for your quick reply and solid advice. Now I have to deal with this brake line! Cheers!


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

sukoto66 said:


> Simple as that. The guy I bought the bike from must have shortened the travel due to having a short front brake line. I just deflated the fork and extended the legs and now they are at 160mm. That's crazy! Thank you for your quick reply and solid advice. Now I have to deal with this brake line! Cheers!


Keep in mind, that process simply changes where the positive and negative springs equalize. Its not a good way to permanently adjust travel. If you want to change the travel, youll need to open the air piston and add/remove spacers.

But every time you attach the pump, youll want to pull the wheel down to make sure the fork is full extended. After a while it becomes automatic.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

Finally installed my MY21 Mattoc Pro and Hayes Dominion A4 brakes. The Mattoc is day and night compare to my old Minute Pro. It is just so buttery smooth!!! Also, is the A2C slightly higher on Mattoc than Minute?


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

Dougal said:


> 29+ uses the same stanchion length and spacing as the 27+. You could do it with shorter travel and appropriate bottom-out spacing.


The 29+ lowers came in. They had the older style tight dust wipers, but I'll leave them in for now. I put the fork back to stock 27.5+ configuration with no travel spacers(140 travel).

To convert the lowers from 27.5+ to 29+, I removed the 28mm top out spacer, and replaced with a 20mm spacer. I then added 20mm worth of spacers between the existing white bottom out spacers and the rubber bottom out bumper on both legs. Max compression now puts the arch right smack in the middle of the recess on the crown, right where it belongs.

I had previously added only 10mm to the bottom out side, and it looked way too tight for comfort. The arch might have hit the crown or even the frame on a bottom out, not to mention the tire. I'm glad I went in and added the second spacer.

All said and done, the fork has 122mm travel at 555mm axle to crown. Travel is silky smooth by hand. The bushings do appear to be well up on the uppers. It seems like I could stretch it to 130mm travel if need be by going with a smaller top out spacer, however the negative spring would be seriously reduced.

Anyway, fork has been rescued for a measly 47 USD. What a relief.


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## PoC (Feb 7, 2020)

Hi there!

I have a Mattoc Pro 3, 160mm 27,5 non-boost, an also having similar travel issues as the ones @MattMark1992 is having. The fork is pretty new, I bought it some months ago, but I'm using it regularly, I ride almost every day.

No poppet valve issues, so the fork is really full extended.

The compression (air) rod just extends about 150mm. The stanchions measure around 168mm on the outside, 158mm on the inside (so there are only 150mm avaliable for the 27.5" config, as the last 10mm are "reserved" for the 170mm 26" config, right?)

I'm being suspicious about the top out bumper plastic piece. This piece is taller than the one I've seen on other photos, or on the fork diagrams, or on the Manitou service videos. If I remove this piece, just for checking, voila, the rod extends about 165mm. The inside part of the stanchion measures about 170mm now, maybe a little more.

Here are some pictures about the piece and the rod:










































This is a screenshot from the official service video. It seems to me that the top out plastic piece is shorter than the one in my fork


















Could somebody confirm if this is the right piece or if that's the same piece you have on your Mattocs? It has the reference number 128-27519 printed on it.

The other issue I'm having is spring related. I found the fork loosing it's plushness after some rides. I do lowers service pretty often, putting 7-9ml of Supergliss 100k in each leg, and putting a generous amount of slickoleum on the air spring and on the dust seals . Last one was three weeks ago and it felt awesome on the firsts rides, then started to feel inconsistent. Seems like the fork is becoming stiffer after some rides, specially the first part of the stroke. I found myself lowering pressures more and more, but doesn't feel quite right. If I lower the main pressure I get more sag, and the fork is more "divey" on steep terrain and when braking, but doesn't feel more plush or sensitive (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I feel like the plush feeling has return, like the fork breaking in suddenly, but I don't know anymore If that is really happening, or I'm just getting nuts...

I ride mostly natural rough enduro style trails. I'm not a super agressive rider, but I like to push myself and the bike.

I weight around 64kg with all my gear on, and I'm trying pressures between 30-38 psi on the main chamber and 60-80 on the IRT. These pressures give me around 20/27% of sag. Rebound is 4 or 5 clicks from fully open. It feels like the initial sensitivity goes away, almost like someone is inflating the fork while I'm riding (both main and IRT).

The poppet valve has a 1,5mm protrusion, and when I attach the pump I can compress and uncompress the fork freely. When there's no air on the main chamber and press the valve sometimes it doesn't return completely, but as soon as I put some air the valve come's out again.

The damper oil level is right, I changed the oil when I did the last lowers service.

Several times I've been writing down my settings, thinking "that's it, I got it!", just to find out some days later that maybe I was wrong 
I'm starting to feel confused, and I don't know if this is how the fork works, if I need to service it every two weeks, or if is really something odd here and I can trust my impressions of how the fork should ride.

On top of that, the temperature has raised fast from firsts 20's to around 32C degrees last days, could this be related on such behaviour? Or there's something I need to check out?

I also have about 5mm of dead stroke since day one, but I've always assumed this is normal due to the stiction and the low pressures required for my weight.

Any help would be very appreciated, I wouldn't like to send the fork to Manitou just to find out it works good on first place and it starts to behave odd again after a few rides...

Thanks folks, I've been reading this thread very carefully and is pure gold!


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## drdre (Dec 15, 2005)

*Spare spacers?*

Reposting to end of section


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## drdre (Dec 15, 2005)

Anybody have some spare spacers for a gen2 mattoc pro? 

I bought a used one set at 160 and want to run it at 130 on my kidos bike. I'm looking for 3 so I'll probably have to get 2 people to help me. (tho just 1 spacer would help as I have to get 2 sets to get to 3 spacers)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PoC said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I have a Mattoc Pro 3, 160mm 27,5 non-boost, an also having similar travel issues as the ones @MattMark1992 is having. The fork is pretty new, I bought it some months ago, but I'm using it regularly, I ride almost every day.
> 
> ...


These used to ship with a shorter pedestal and a 10mm spacer under the piston. Looks like they've removed the spacer and increased the pedestal to reduce parts count.

To get full travel I cut the top bellow off the top-out bumper. That should give you about 155mm to the bottom-out bumper and the last 5mm are in the bumper and require a decent hit to access.

Your pressures are about right. I would check air spring lubrication and bushing clearance if the fork is stiffening after service.


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## PoC (Feb 7, 2020)

Dougal said:


> These used to ship with a shorter pedestal and a 10mm spacer under the piston. Looks like they've removed the spacer and increased the pedestal to reduce parts count.


Sorry, my mistake! Maybe my photo leads to confusion. The fork is configured for 27,5 wheels, but I removed the spacer on the bottom of the shaft just for disassembly, and took the photo without it :lol:

There shouldn't be any spacer above the pedestal according to the manual for the 160mm config.










The pedestal seems to be shorter in this diagram too... And the drawings show the same on the older diagrams, they just have the older piston, but no spacers for the 160mm config.

I'm founding the same thing on all pictures: shorter pedestal and no spacers for the 160mm config, just the bottom one to prevent the tire hitting the crown, but this one doesn't limit the travel.










I did the measurements again, the effective extension is 140mm. Looks like if I cut the bumper I will achieve 150mm.

Compressing the fork, the hard stop appears at 140mm. I take into account that the bottom out bumper can compress a little on a very hard hit. Still, trimming the top out bumper would only allow around 150mm of travel, if I'm not mistaken. I will try to make some more pictures with measurements soon.

Do you know if is possible to order this pedestal separately? Or I need to order the full compression rod?

I've been talking to Hayes Europe, but they keep pointing me to a local distributor who doesn't respond my mails... :sad:



Dougal said:


> Your pressures are about right. I would check air spring lubrication and bushing clearance if the fork is stiffening after service.


I put a generous amount of Sram Butter on the spring on the last service, following the instrucctions in the manual (apparently Sram Butter and Slickoleum are the same thing).

Should I put some oil in there or I'm good with just the grease? If I recall correctly the updated manual says no oil is needed inside the air spring or the IRT.

On the other hand, how can I check the bushing clearance? If that is the cause, how it could be adressed?

Thank you Dougal!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PoC said:


> I did the measurements again, the effective extension is 140mm. Looks like if I cut the bumper I will achieve 150mm.
> 
> Compressing the fork, the hard stop appears at 140mm. I take into account that the bottom out bumper can compress a little on a very hard hit. Still, trimming the top out bumper would only allow around 150mm of travel, if I'm not mistaken. I will try to make some more pictures with measurements soon.


I think you have a 140mm fork.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

As a last ditch effort I went to replace the air shaft seal, 10x3 quad rings like the stock one are not avaible in my area, someone mentioned to switch it with 10x3 o-ring, and so I did, but I now unable to push the shaft back in... Am I doing something wrong?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Take out the backup ring. The groove is too tight for a 3mm oring and a backup ring made for 2.6mm seal.

From the Shockcraft mobile typewriter.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That makes sense, would a 10,2x2,62 quad ring fit then? I'm unable to measure the stock seal with this sort of accuracy


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

You can't seal a shaft with a seal that is bigger id. Fox tried that with the x2.

from the Shockcraft mobile typewriter


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## Steve5 (Sep 5, 2020)

Looking at the MY21 Matto Comp 29+, It looks like they only have the 100mm Travel Version available:
https://hayesbicycle.com/products/my21mattoccomp_z

If I'm reading the description right that means I cannot adjust the travel up to 120mm, I would have to buy the 120mm version (which is currently out of stock). Is that correct? Would I be able buy additional parts to make the travel adjustment work?


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## corinthian (Feb 15, 2014)

A quick question for you all, I'm a set-it-and-forget-it type, when I bought the Mattoc Pro two seasons ago I always intended to get the IRT kit but never got around to it. I've got the modern seals, I'm using Supergliss 100w, and the fork's been pretty good for me with the IVA. How much of an improvement would the IRT be, and how much extra fiddling with the fork pump is it once you've found the ideal setup? Does it tend to lose pressure over time? For reference, I'm about 75kg kitted up, and I'm running it at 150mm on a Giant Trance. I don't hit big features anymore.


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## ka81ua (Oct 14, 2014)

......


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Id say if you don't feel like the fork is lacking in support or anything, you don't need IRT, but still, it's such a large improvement that I highly recommend you to try it if you have the money. The fork is in general more stable, while being more supple at the same time, aspecially on mid sized hits, I'd recommend to start at a bit lower main pressure and double that in IRT, I started out with more than double in IRT (150mm now) and ended up at 2x, more than that was more progressive than I like, I prefer to use the whole travel more freely and let the damper handle drops to flat etc.


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## Novaterra (Jan 1, 2014)

IMG-20200904-WA0006 by joost nijland, on Flickrdoes anyone of you guys ever seen this???, fork from a friend. quite an agressive rider, but this looks odd


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Novaterra said:


> IMG-20200904-WA0006 by joost nijland, on Flickrdoes anyone of you guys ever seen this???, fork from a friend. quite an agressive rider, but this looks odd


Not on a Mattoc, but I did something similar to a Minute MRD back in the day. I went off course and slammed into a G-out really hard which put enough load into the fork to mangle the damper shaft and seize it into the cartridge along with breaking my frame. The damper cartridge ended up with a slight bend and the shaft pretty much imploded.

Surprisingly my fork was fine, it just needed a new damper assembly and it's still working great today.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Novaterra said:


> IMG-20200904-WA0006 by joost nijland, on Flickrdoes anyone of you guys ever seen this???, fork from a friend. quite an agressive rider, but this looks odd


I've seen the results, but not the actual event.

It's caused by hydraulic lock. Too much oil in the cartridge and a hard compression usually after a service. The plate on top of the rebound tube gets forced down and buckles that rebound damper tube.

New rebound assembly and he'll be away again. Check oil levels better next time. You need to be able to fully compress the damper shaft by hand with the lowers off.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just a quick question, if one was stupid enough to attempt pushing a stanchion leg out of the csu using a rubber mallet and actually succeed, how would one go after addressing the issue that caused one to try such an abomination in the first place? (as in creaking crown, definitely coming from the leg interface, not the steerer assembly) some sort of bonding compound? Just hypothetically


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Just a quick question, if one was stupid enough to attempt pushing a stanchion leg out of the csu using a rubber mallet and actually succeed, how would one go after addressing the issue that caused one to try such an abomination in the first place? (as in creaking crown, definitely coming from the leg interface, not the steerer assembly) some sort of bonding compound? Just hypothetically


If one could/did remove a stanchion leg with a rubber mallet one would be wise to purchase a new CSU from manitou...


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Well, it turns out that putting them back in is much easier than removing, so no need to get all hasty in panic.
Did some research, loctite seems to be the thing to go for this application, to my eyes it looks actually like there was some put in there at the factory- mayby went loose in the 6 years or so of riding.
Will report in a couple of days if I managed to fix the issue, will give it plenty of time to cure.
ps. Turns out loctite is a really nice love for putting press fit things in, hope it does actually bond the 2 halves together


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

piciu256 said:


> Well, it turns out that putting them back in is much easier than removing, so no need to get all hasty in panic.
> Did some research, loctite seems to be the thing to go for this application, to my eyes it looks actually like there was some put in there at the factory- mayby went loose in the 6 years or so of riding.
> Will report in a couple of days if I managed to fix the issue, will give it plenty of time to cure.
> ps. Turns out loctite is a really nice love for putting press fit things in, hope it does actually bond the 2 halves together


If that doesn't work, or feels iffy, the service manual should have the CSU part number to find a replacement


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Dude whats the deal with you? If I wanted to buy a new CSU for a beat up 6 year fork Id do it in the first place instead of trying this  If the creaking persists then whatever, I'll live with it, but it was certainly worth a try. Definitely makes more sense to buy a complete fork on CRC instead of the CSU alone tho.


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## xeren (Aug 1, 2014)

piciu256 said:


> Dude whats the deal with you? If I wanted to buy a new CSU for a beat up 6 year fork Id do it in the first place instead of trying this  If the creaking persists then whatever, I'll live with it, but it was certainly worth a try. Definitely makes more sense to buy a complete fork on CRC instead of the CSU alone tho.


i was simply saying that if the repair doesn't make you 100% confident that it's safe to ride, you shouldn't ride a fork that might come apart and cause a possible horrible injury.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

xeren said:


> i was simply saying that if the repair doesn't make you 100% confident that it's safe to ride, you shouldn't ride a fork that might come apart and cause a possible horrible injury.


Ya, there are bad ideas, then there are Darwin ideas. Pressing out stanchions then pressing them in easier then before and hoping loctite is going to save you a few hundred bucks is for sure one type of idea.

If you ride it please have a GoPro running so there is evidence for the future.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Those legs are definitely not retained by compound. They're pressed in and there is compound used, but thats not what keeps them in! 

Actually getting one out is pretty incredible. You need to scuff up the stanchion and use a newer style permanent epoxy. The kind of stuff they bond cars together with. You want that NEVER coming out again. This is way way way beyond the capacity of retaining compound!


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## R.T.R. (Sep 20, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Ya, there are bad ideas, then there are Darwin ideas. Pressing out stanchions then pressing them in easier then before and hoping loctite is going to save you a few hundred bucks is for sure one type of idea.
> 
> If you ride it please have a GoPro running so there is evidence for the future.


Man, I haven't posted in eons but I have to concur with the GoPro suggestion...

Good Luck 256 ..


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I do indeed ride with a gopro, and apparently you guys don't realise that it's exactly how you fix this issue. The stanchions are press fit, just like bearings etc. so do you scrap a frame or a hub after a bearing replacement? 
It's not like I pressed the stanchions out with my hand, it took a lot of work, pressing them back in was only easier because I had a solid steel base to push against (pushing out they were sortof floating, because of the angled lower surface I couldn't think of a reliable way to support the crown) the only difference compared to a shop doing this job is that I used a very short stroke "press" to remove the stanchion, a shop would use a hydraulic press so the job would be 10x faster and easier- that and probably didn't use the proper compound for the job, certainly the loctite won't bond to anodised aluminium, but it's not what I'm hoping for- I'm hoping that it fills in any gaps and at least minimises the creaking, tried applying it outside before and it certainly didn't get where it was supposed to inside (no residue past the lip)
Unless the crown itself splits, there is no way they are coming out, not only is it a tight press fit, they are also retained on a ledge by the top caps, so don't worry about me, I understand you replace your fork every year or so of heavy riding because your fork might snap from material fatigue?
As for car bonding compound- it wouldn't work, it's too thick, would get pushed right out, also it's meant for pretty large contact area (here it's really small for a lot of force) and certainly scuffing the stanchion a lot is a bad idea (making the fit loose- relying on the glue to hold it tight) imo, loctite retaining compound is definitely the way to go imo, just mayby scuff the surfaces a little to make it bond the 2 sides and more importantly- use a proper primer, which I didn't do.
That's all I have to say, hope you are no longer scared for my life, for your information also- Dougal and many other reliable mechanics do offer the service of disassembling the crown steerer assembly and putting it back together, it's not very expensive either, but I like messing around myself, anyway if it was destructive- noone would attempt such a thing.


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## spicy (Sep 24, 2020)

Just coming here from the Mezzer thread (thinking of getting a Mezzer for the full-sus), after getting a 2nd hand Mattoc for my hardtail.

Is there a google sheet with fork settings that everyone is running, like in the other thread? I've not put much effort into my Mattocs, but it's feeling great regardless!


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

spicy said:


> Just coming here from the Mezzer thread (thinking of getting a Mezzer for the full-sus), after getting a 2nd hand Mattoc for my hardtail.
> 
> Is there a google sheet with fork settings that everyone is running, like in the other thread? I've not put much effort into my Mattocs, but it's feeling great regardless!


Yup.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VuHv47XkwMWrPO3fDP0aCin0aPd1lSW1aptF-bVciZA/edit#gid=0


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

*Mattoc - Once Main & IRT are pressurized, how to make 5-10 psi changes to either*

Apologize if this is somewhere already addressed in this well maintained Mattoc thread. I have a Gen 3 Pro using for @ 2 years. 140mm 27.5+/29 works well. Lately have wanted to experiment with changing main and IRT pressures from usual (was running 70 psi main, 105 IRT). My ? is once you have air in both main and IRT do you still need to fill IRT first? Meaning if I want to move from 70/105 to say 60/90 or 65/95 then go back to 70/105, each time should I spend the time to totally empty the main and get IRT where I want it, then refill main to where I want it? If I don't want to change the pressure in IRT but want to reduce or increase main by 5 psi, can I just change the main on its own? Asking to know if doing so won't have the main and IRT working the wrong way. I know easy thing to do is simply start over on both i.e. empty main then IRT then set IRT to desired then set main to desired. But if I'm experimenting on trail to compare in real time not ideal doing that. Thx in advance for clarifying!


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

trailhawk said:


> Apologize if this is somewhere already addressed in this well maintained Mattoc thread. I have a Gen 3 Pro using for @ 2 years. 140mm 27.5+/29 works well. Lately have wanted to experiment with changing main and IRT pressures from usual (was running 70 psi main, 105 IRT). My ? is once you have air in both main and IRT do you still need to fill IRT first? Meaning if I want to move from 70/105 to say 60/90 or 65/95 then go back to 70/105, each time should I spend the time to totally empty the main and get IRT where I want it, then refill main to where I want it? If I don't want to change the pressure in IRT but want to reduce or increase main by 5 psi, can I just change the main on its own? Asking to know if doing so won't have the main and IRT working the wrong way. I know easy thing to do is simply start over on both i.e. empty main then IRT then set IRT to desired then set main to desired. But if I'm experimenting on trail to compare in real time not ideal doing that. Thx in advance for clarifying!


Once the fork is aired up you can change both pressures up & down without issue so long as you maintain a minimum 10psi(I think) difference in favour of the irt.
i'd recommend if lowering pressure that you lower the main first then the irt. 
if raising pressure then raise the irt first, doing it that way will maintain a greater pressure difference in favour of the irt. 
If I was only changing the main I would always check the irt out of habit after changing the main.

Manitou recommend emptying the main for best performance, I couldn't ever tell the difference when I changed pressure using either method & on the trail it's impractical to empty the main every time you make a irt pressure adjustment.
If your experimenting you could try some bigger Psi spreads, I used to run a 50 psi spread between main & irt & used to like how it performed.


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

cashews said:


> Once the fork is aired up you can change both pressures up & down without issue so long as you maintain a minimum 10psi(I think) difference in favour of the irt.
> i'd recommend if lowering pressure that you lower the main first then the irt.
> if raising pressure then raise the irt first, doing it that way will maintain a greater pressure difference in favour of the irt.
> If I was only changing the main I would always check the irt out of habit after changing the main.
> ...


cashews - very much appreciated! TY


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Problem:

I get about 2-5mm of completely undamped travel in my 2017 Mattoc Pros (with IRT).

After setting up the IRT, I have connected the shock pump to the main air spring, depressed the valve to release air and asked my glamorous assistant (wife) tp pull on the legs so they're fully extended whilst I inflate the spring, there was then no play and the forks felt great.

Then a couple of hours into a ride the 2-5mm of travel reappeared.

Is obviously some kind of leak somewhere, any ideas where? I have always service the fork myself but never replaced the internal seals (just dust wipers etc)so don't midn pulling it apart.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

*Shock oil leak through damper top cap thread*

Recently did some travel with my bike (and MY21 Mattoc Pro) to ride longer trails and I noticed oil mark around the top cap of the damper side. After inspection I am pretty sure it leaked through the thread, not the damper shaft (knob). It only happened after car rides with huge elevation change (over 3000ft). Has anyone had the same issue before? The overall damper performance was not affected. After I took the fork apart, I didn't see any damage on the thread and I noticed the oil volume is still quite high (maybe too high?) but a little bit turbid. What is the possible cause? Too much damper oil? Air in the system?

Anyway I cleaned it all up and set the proper oil height. Hope It won't happen again.


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

NOS_ATX said:


> Recently did some travel with my bike (and MY21 Mattoc Pro) to ride longer trails and I noticed oil mark around the top cap of the damper side. After inspection I am pretty sure it leaked through the thread, not the damper shaft (knob). It only happened after car rides with huge elevation change (over 3000ft). Has anyone had the same issue before? The overall damper performance was not affected. After I took the bike apart, I didn't see any damage on the thread and I noticed the oil volume is still quite high (maybe too high? Do you measure the oil height from full extended rebound or with lower installed? I saw different suggestions from Manitou) but a little bit turbid. What is the possible cause? Too much damper oil? Air in the system?
> 
> Anyway I cleaned it all up and set the proper oil height. Hope It won't happen again.


maybe some bath oil from the lowers has ingested into the compression circuit increasing the volume.
Only real way to check is to remove the lowers & see if any bath oil is left in the lowers on the compression side.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

cashews said:


> maybe some bath oil from the lowers has ingested into the compression circuit increasing the volume.
> Only real way to check is to remove the lowers & see if any bath oil is left in the lowers on the compression side.


Everything looked fine in the lowers, the color and the volume of bath oil were similar between the two legs.


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

Steve.E said:


> Problem:
> 
> I get about 2-5mm of completely undamped travel in my 2017 Mattoc Pros (with IRT).
> 
> ...


You could try inserting a zip tie down past the dust wiper & see if you can hear any air escaping, if there is then it's likely air in the lowers probably from the negative shaft seal. 
if the fork returns to normal after the zip tie test then thats possibly the issue.
Not a bad idea to put all new seals in the air side once things like this start to happen.
Probably a good idea to also check your oil height on the compression side to rule it out of the equation.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NOS_ATX said:


> Recently did some travel with my bike (and MY21 Mattoc Pro) to ride longer trails and I noticed oil mark around the top cap of the damper side. After inspection I am pretty sure it leaked through the thread, not the damper shaft (knob). It only happened after car rides with huge elevation change (over 3000ft). Has anyone had the same issue before? The overall damper performance was not affected. After I took the fork apart, I didn't see any damage on the thread and I noticed the oil volume is still quite high (maybe too high?) but a little bit turbid. What is the possible cause? Too much damper oil? Air in the system?
> 
> Anyway I cleaned it all up and set the proper oil height. Hope It won't happen again.


Stock they do pull air from the lowers into the damper which foams the oil and increases it's volume. The combination of my high flow piston and upgrading the shaft seal to a 10x3 o-ring fixes that problem.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Steve.E said:


> Problem:
> 
> I get about 2-5mm of completely undamped travel in my 2017 Mattoc Pros (with IRT).
> 
> ...


Time for new air-seals. Your main seal is bypassing some air to negative.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

NOS_ATX said:


> Everything looked fine in the lowers, the color and the volume of bath oil were similar between the two legs.


To be noticed that I have changed travel from 160mm to 140mm. I know correcting oil height is not required when changing the travel but could this be the cause?


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Stock they do pull air from the lowers into the damper which foams the oil and increases it's volume. The combination of my high flow piston and upgrading the shaft seal to a 10x3 o-ring fixes that problem.


Thanks! Do you suggest leaking oil through top cap thread is resulted from too much damper oil/foamy oil? Anyway I will take a look at your offer if the problem is still there.


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

NOS_ATX said:


> Everything looked fine in the lowers, the color and the volume of bath oil were similar between the two legs.


maybe the compression oil was overfilled from factory?, I wouldn't think the ambient air temperature or pressure from the elevation change would be enough to expand or contract the caps or oil volume to that degree, but I could be wrong. 
Maybe change the o-ring on the compression top cap to eliminate that as a possibility.

edit: take Dougal's advice as a first solution, he's knows these forks like the back of his hand.


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## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

cashews said:


> maybe the compression oil was overfilled from factory?, I wouldn't think the ambient air temperature or pressure from the elevation change would be enough to expand or contract the caps or oil volume to that degree, but I could be wrong.
> Maybe change the o-ring on the compression top cap to eliminate that as a possibility.


Wait, I didn't see any o-ring on the compression top cap. Is there one? If so what is the correct size?

I took the compression damper out and indeed there is an o-ring on the top cap. Doesn't look damaged either. I guess after I will just wait and see. Anyway thank you for your help!


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## Steve.E (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the help cashews and Dougal


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I think I just about succeeded at removing any potential resale value from my fork by drilling holes in the lowers  Inspired by the Fox 38, some oil seems to actually be flowing through so it indeed works, don't know how the holes affect structural integrity and definitely need to be tapped instead of pressed in and held with tape.

As for my attempt to fix the creaking crown- it worked flawlessly, well, almost flawlessly


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## tomvanhalen (Mar 31, 2015)

Anybody converted a Mattoc to coil recently? I know Dougal has previously and couldn't get full travel, but I have an itch to scratch and a suitably rated spring from a 130mm Vanilla 32.

Have both IVA and IRT top caps to play with. Also wondering if both sides of the fork are symmetrical so I can swap the spring and damper.


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## R.T.R. (Sep 20, 2005)

piciu256 said:


> I think I just about succeeded at removing any potential resale value from my fork by drilling holes in the lowers  Inspired by the Fox 38, some oil seems to actually be flowing through so it indeed works, don't know how the holes affect structural integrity and definitely need to be tapped instead of pressed in and held with tape.
> 
> As for my attempt to fix the creaking crown- it worked flawlessly, well, almost flawlessly


Kind'a like to know if you used the boxed end or the open end of that 19mm ..?..


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Open end, for torquing up the damper cartridge onto the bottom part so it (hopefully) doesn't unscrew when (if) I remove the tube next time. Not sure if it was 19 or 17 though, 19 might just be laying there by accident, photo taken a while after put back together.
ps. the oil tubes work flawlessly (greatly reduced the stiction few hours after service compared to before mounting them) but I understand why nobody does this, they make a slurping sound, not heard during normal riding, but on pavement etc. it is quite weird.
As for crown fix, not totally fixed, but greatly reduced the creaking, now only makes one once in a while instead of all the time.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

remove


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## Dyceman (Oct 16, 2015)

My Mattoc Pro 2 has a creaky CSU. I bought it from CRC almost 2 years ago. I emailed them and they said to send it to them and they would check it out. I was hesitant to pay to ship it all the way to Europe (I’m in Canada) in case for whatever reason they deem it to not be a warranty issue. So I contacted the Canadian distributor and asked them about it. They told me that the Manitou warranty is only 1 year in North America, not 2 years as stated on their website.
Can anyone confirm the warranty period for this fork? It seems odd to me that it would be location specific.
Does anyone have any experience with how this specific issue has been handled by warranty? Maybe even how CRC specifically handled it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dyceman said:


> My Mattoc Pro 2 has a creaky CSU. I bought it from CRC almost 2 years ago. I emailed them and they said to send it to them and they would check it out. I was hesitant to pay to ship it all the way to Europe (I'm in Canada) in case for whatever reason they deem it to not be a warranty issue. So I contacted the Canadian distributor and asked them about it. They told me that the Manitou warranty is only 1 year in North America, not 2 years as stated on their website.
> Can anyone confirm the warranty period for this fork? It seems odd to me that it would be location specific.
> Does anyone have any experience with how this specific issue has been handled by warranty? Maybe even how CRC specifically handled it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe the EU has their own laws regarding minimum warranty length. If you're outside the EU then EU laws don't mean much.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I think I just about succeeded at removing any potential resale value from my fork by drilling holes in the lowers  Inspired by the Fox 38, some oil seems to actually be flowing through so it indeed works, don't know how the holes affect structural integrity and definitely need to be tapped instead of pressed in and held with tape.
> 
> As for my attempt to fix the creaking crown- it worked flawlessly, well, almost flawlessly


Nice one. Manitou put internal grooves around the top bushings in the Mattoc 3 to push oil up and down.

My opinion is the most important thing for oil migration is bushing clearance. If they're too tight then you're not going to get oil up there.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My bushings are pretty loose I believe from age (2014 model, probably heavily used) one of them was a little tight (as I axpected previously) but I didn't even need a proper tool to fix the clearance- an overtightened lower leg was larger enough to make it fit properly (without seals the lowers slide smoothly, gravity is enough)
The issue I experienced was that the sensitivity went quickly downhill after service, now it seems to go only a little down (grease is washed out) but it doesn't stick as much as before (I measured the stiction to be at around 7kg, not very good, now it's under 4, still not amazing but acceptable.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

Until recently I've been using RS 0w30 as a lower lube oil and been relatively happy with its performance. I tried Supergliss 100k and found that it dulled the feeling of the fork at normal temperatures but almost locked the fork out at colder (5°C and below). 

I've bought another type of slideway oil that is 46k, and very similar in terms of viscosity to the 0w30 oil, but much more slippery and sticky. Hopefully this will be an improvement over both supergliss and 0w30. I'll keep you posted...


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

neb said:


> Until recently I've been using RS 0w30 as a lower lube oil and been relatively happy with its performance. I tried Supergliss 100k and found that it dulled the feeling of the fork at normal temperatures but almost locked the fork out at colder (5°C and below).
> 
> I've bought another type of slideway oil that is 46k, and very similar in terms of viscosity to the 0w30 oil, but much more slippery and sticky. Hopefully this will be an improvement over both supergliss and 0w30. I'll keep you posted...


I posted same experience and people here wanted to kill me. Somebody shout "you got tight bushings". I got bushings done and fork was still dulled on supergliss 100k. I searched for thinner slideaway but its hard to get in small containers.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

nikon255 said:


> I posted same experience and people here wanted to kill me. Somebody shout "you got tight bushings". I got bushings done and fork was still dulled on supergliss 100k. I searched for thinner slideaway but its hard to get in small containers.


I found litre bottles for sale on eBay for similar prices to 0w30.

I found it really difficult to remove the supergliss from my fork lowers. It's about 5°c here at the moment and it's so sticky and thick due to the temperature that it wouldn't drip out of the bottom of the lowers. I also found that despite often leaving my bike upside down for a period of time, the foam rings were dry. (They weren't previously when I used 0w30)

I guess people will have different experiences in warmer climates or with forks with looser bushes.


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

*Manitou Mattoc Pro Fender*

I have a bolt on fender that came with my Mattoc Pro 3, 29er 120mm boost fork. Same style as the one that came with my mezzer. However, the Mattoc Arch does not have bolt holes whereas the Mezzer does. Anyone else have this issue. Wondering if the right arch came with my fork?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

nikon255 said:


> I posted same experience and people here wanted to kill me. Somebody shout "you got tight bushings". I got bushings done and fork was still dulled on supergliss 100k. I searched for thinner slideaway but its hard to get in small containers.


Fox gold is thinner slideway oil, and its $12 a quart... but people have had thickening issues with fox gold at those temps too, not surprising 100k gummed up on you guys.

Motorex makes 32k and 68k, but I think thats becoming too much of a pain in the ass when I can just get fox gold and mix in some fork oil if I need to thin it.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Alpenglow said:


> I have a bolt on fender that came with my Mattoc Pro 3, 29er 120mm boost fork. Same style as the one that came with my mezzer. However, the Mattoc Arch does not have bolt holes whereas the Mezzer does. Anyone else have this issue. Wondering if the right arch came with my fork?


Bolt-on fender doesn't work with that style lower legs. I have no idea why they sent you one.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> Fox gold is thinner slideway oil, and its $12 a quart... but people have had thickening issues with fox gold at those temps too, not surprising 100k gummed up on you guys.
> 
> Motorex makes 32k and 68k, but I think thats becoming too much of a pain in the ass when I can just get fox gold and mix in some fork oil if I need to thin it.


At 40C the Fox Gold matches Supergliss 100K for viscosity but at 0C it's 28% thinner.

Supergliss 68K is pretty much exactly halfway between Supergliss 100K and the Motorex 0W40 that freezing point.

Some winters I've run Supergliss right through because I haven't got around to changing it. But when I can I switch to the Motorex 0W40. I don't ride much below about -3C.


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

neb said:


> I found litre bottles for sale on eBay for similar prices to 0w30.
> 
> I found it really difficult to remove the supergliss from my fork lowers. It's about 5°c here at the moment and it's so sticky and thick due to the temperature that it wouldn't drip out of the bottom of the lowers. I also found that despite often leaving my bike upside down for a period of time, the foam rings were dry. (They weren't previously when I used 0w30)
> 
> I guess people will have different experiences in warmer climates or with forks with looser bushes.


Did you soak the foam rings prior? Oil isn't going to get up there all by itself unless you've got a seal leak.

Supergliss is water soluble. Just wash it out if you need to. It doesn't all run out because it's designed to cling to vertical surfaces.


----------



## AdHag (Jan 16, 2020)

Hello Mr. Dougal, I'm going to buy a used black stanchion mattoc pro from my friend and the conversion kit to 27.5 doesn't seem like there's an accompanying ring, maybe it gets lost or falls somewhere. Does the fork have a ring that I can use again later? Thank you in advance if you are willing to help me


Sent from my ASUS_X01BDA using Tapatalk


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

AdHag said:


> Hello Mr. Dougal, I'm going to buy a used black stanchion mattoc pro from my friend and the conversion kit to 27.5 doesn't seem like there's an accompanying ring, maybe it gets lost or falls somewhere. Does the fork have a ring that I can use again later? Thank you in advance if you are willing to help me
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_X01BDA using Tapatalk


The original travel change kit had the steel ring in the corner of the bag heat-sealed into it's own pocket.

Swap the ring over from your original HBO cone if you can't find it.


----------



## NOS_ATX (Jul 8, 2020)

NOS_ATX said:


> Recently did some travel with my bike (and MY21 Mattoc Pro) to ride longer trails and I noticed oil mark around the top cap of the damper side. After inspection I am pretty sure it leaked through the thread, not the damper shaft (knob). It only happened after car rides with huge elevation change (over 3000ft). Has anyone had the same issue before? The overall damper performance was not affected. After I took the fork apart, I didn't see any damage on the thread and I noticed the oil volume is still quite high (maybe too high?) but a little bit turbid. What is the possible cause? Too much damper oil? Air in the system?
> 
> Anyway I cleaned it all up and set the proper oil height. Hope It won't happen again.


Finally did a long trip with significant elevation change (Front range Colorado to Moab and back). No leaked oil whatsoever. I guess oil height was the problem.


----------



## AdHag (Jan 16, 2020)

Dougal said:


> The original travel change kit had the steel ring in the corner of the bag heat-sealed into it's own pocket.
> 
> Swap the ring over from your original HBO cone if you can't find it.


Thanks a lot, Mr. Dougal
Your answer means a lot to me.

The next homework is to find oil that is close to the requirements and available in my country. I found Redline 5w40 for bath oil and maxima 5wt for damper oil. Are these two oils correct and can I use them in the tropics?

Sent from my ASUS_X01BDA using Tapatalk


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Dougal said:


> At 40C the Fox Gold matches Supergliss 100K for viscosity but at 0C it's 28% thinner.
> 
> Supergliss 68K is pretty much exactly halfway between Supergliss 100K and the Motorex 0W40 that freezing point.
> 
> Some winters I've run Supergliss right through because I haven't got around to changing it. But when I can I switch to the Motorex 0W40. I don't ride much below about -3C.


Vertical axis has no units label or unit values.


----------



## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

Hi @Dougal,

For the oil damper for Mattoc Pro, do we need to have it 15-15.1cSt or we can use 14~15cSt[Provided if I can find one here in my country] ? I'm still in the hunt for the oil in my country as I don't really want to buy outside just for the oils. So far I have seen Motorex 2.5wt as well as Motul 2.5wt. I've checked them up and cSt is [email protected]

Thanks,


----------



## eoghan (Nov 27, 2020)

My manitou Mattoc expert (from 2016) had the old style casting seals where there was oil seal, c clip and dust seal. I bought rebuild kit and it has new low friction ones where it just includes foam inserts and dust seal. 


Does anyone know if I just discard the C clips or try reuse them? The dust seals are different heights so I assume clips aren't compatible


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TylerVernon said:


> Vertical axis has no units label or unit values.


Well yeah, I can't give away all the hard-won info for nothing!



KillerKamote said:


> Hi @Dougal,
> 
> For the oil damper for Mattoc Pro, do we need to have it 15-15.1cSt or we can use 14~15cSt[Provided if I can find one here in my country] ? I'm still in the hunt for the oil in my country as I don't really want to buy outside just for the oils. So far I have seen Motorex 2.5wt as well as Motul 2.5wt. I've checked them up and cSt is [email protected]
> 
> Thanks,


Anywhere in the ballpark is fine. You'll get good results with anywhere from approx 12-19cSt.



eoghan said:


> My manitou Mattoc expert (from 2016) had the old style casting seals where there was oil seal, c clip and dust seal. I bought rebuild kit and it has new low friction ones where it just includes foam inserts and dust seal.
> 
> Does anyone know if I just discard the C clips or try reuse them? The dust seals are different heights so I assume clips aren't compatible


Ditch the C-Clips. The new low-friction seals have rubber beads which lock into the same grooves and make them really really hard to remove.


----------



## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

thanks man



Dougal said:


> Anywhere in the ballpark is fine. You'll get good results with anywhere from approx 12-19cSt.


----------



## eoghan (Nov 27, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Ditch the C-Clips. The new low-friction seals have rubber beads which lock into the same grooves and make them really really hard to remove.


Ya, that's what I suspected. Fair play, thanks for the reply


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/2936531/

Interesting coil mattoc . Seems at least $300 too expensive but that depends what's going on inside.


----------



## atolba (May 30, 2018)

Greetings To you all
Not sure if am the right thread but it`s regarding the mattoc comp suspension fork, i am looking at buying the mattoc comp 29er fork only available in 100mm travel (SKU: 191-35527-A002 ) was wondering if there is a way i would be able to convert it into 140mm travel in an easy and safe way, i know that i can easily convert between 80 mm to 100 mm travel, what would i need for such kit if available, or it`s just a completely different platform. 
much obliged


----------



## Robust2 (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi Mattoc gang,

I bought a second hand (but almost unused) Mattoc 3 Comp (27.5", 110/boost axle, Dorado air damper and travel at 140mm, the CSU has as serial number HB8136541) a few months ago and have been very pleased with the ride quality. On my last ride however, I had to push the bike for a while and started feeling a knocking when rolling it over rocky stuff, kind of like a loose headset feeling. On inspection back home, it feels like there's play between upper and lower legs especially on the damper side. I can feel it mostly when there is little to no compression, with no compression I can both feel a knock/play as see the wheel move several mm when rocking the bike back and forth. When turning the bike upside down I can provoke/feel play when rocking the lower legs on the damper side but not really on the air side.

Since I'm not the original owner and don't even really know where it was bought (one of those problematic CRC/bike-discount batches?), I guess I'm out of luck with any kind of warranty. Is this a serious issue and if so, anything I can do about it? I've done several suspension services so not too afraid to dig in, but not sure what to expect..
I see a new bushing kit is not a huge expense, but if it's the mating between bushings and lowers, that won't fix things I guess?


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

atolba said:


> Greetings To you all
> Not sure if am the right thread but it`s regarding the mattoc comp suspension fork, i am looking at buying the mattoc comp 29er fork only available in 100mm travel (SKU: 191-35527-A002 ) was wondering if there is a way i would be able to convert it into 140mm travel in an easy and safe way, i know that i can easily convert between 80 mm to 100 mm travel, what would i need for such kit if available, or it`s just a completely different platform.
> much obliged


Pretty sure that fork will have shorter stanchions so you can't increase the travel to 140mm.



Robust2 said:


> Hi Mattoc gang,
> 
> I bought a second hand (but almost unused) Mattoc 3 Comp (27.5", 110/boost axle, Dorado air damper and travel at 140mm, the CSU has as serial number HB8136541) a few months ago and have been very pleased with the ride quality. On my last ride however, I had to push the bike for a while and started feeling a knocking when rolling it over rocky stuff, kind of like a loose headset feeling. On inspection back home, it feels like there's play between upper and lower legs especially on the damper side. I can feel it mostly when there is little to no compression, with no compression I can both feel a knock/play as see the wheel move several mm when rocking the bike back and forth. When turning the bike upside down I can provoke/feel play when rocking the lower legs on the damper side but not really on the air side.
> 
> ...


Yes they had a batch of lower legs with the right side top bushing pocket slightly oval. The bushing went in round and they checked out fine as new forks, but once ridden with enough force the bushing seats into the oval shape and you get a front back knock of about 0.1mm.

The best way to fix it is to pull the bushing, shim it fore/aft by 0.1mm and then burnish the bushing to round. It is a good permanent fix but is time consuming.


----------



## Robust2 (Jun 12, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Yes they had a batch of lower legs with the right side top bushing pocket slightly oval. The bushing went in round and they checked out fine as new forks, but once ridden with enough force the bushing seats into the oval shape and you get a front back knock of about 0.1mm.
> 
> The best way to fix it is to pull the bushing, shim it fore/aft by 0.1mm and then burnish the bushing to round. It is a good permanent fix but is time consuming.


Thanks for the quick answer! Some follow-ups:
How bad would it be to just ignore it for now? It feels like it's mainly an issue when having little to no weight on the front, which doesn't happen all that often if my own weight is on the bike of course..
How would one go about to shimming a 0.1mm oval like that? Only thing that pops up into my mind right now is trying to knurl and/or raise some edges, but I guess those can get knocked down as well when riding with force. Or does loctite retainer work?

It also sounds like a specific enough job that finding a shop which can do this reliably won't be all that easy. Manitou doesn't have a huge presence here, let alone for an out of the ordinary repair. Other alternative is new lowers I guess (do those come with bushings installed?)?

Edit: that actually sounds like it should be warrantied regardless if it was a known batch issue, but I guess I'll pull the short straw on that one since I'm not the original owner..


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Robust2 said:


> Thanks for the quick answer! Some follow-ups:
> How bad would it be to just ignore it for now? It feels like it's mainly an issue when having little to no weight on the front, which doesn't happen all that often if my own weight is on the bike of course..
> How would one go about to shimming a 0.1mm oval like that? Only thing that pops up into my mind right now is trying to knurl and/or raise some edges, but I guess those can get knocked down as well when riding with force. Or does loctite retainer work?
> 
> ...


No problem at all to keep riding it. 
Shim it with some shim steel. Your problem with new lowers is finding some that don't have the problem. They all feel good and test good out of the box. They are only tested after some solid riding.


----------



## Robust2 (Jun 12, 2019)

Dougal said:


> No problem at all to keep riding it.
> Shim it with some shim steel. Your problem with new lowers is finding some that don't have the problem. They all feel good and test good out of the box. They are only tested after some solid riding.


Hmm, pretty disappointing QC in that case. 
The job itself sounds reasonably doable for an experienced home mechanic, up until the point of reinstalling the bushings. General opinion seems to be this is best done with specialized tools?

I guess I'll keep it like this for now as it's a bike I don't use all that often, however much I hate the thought of not having my bike in 100% condition.


----------



## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Just got a new Mattoc Pro 29+ (2017 year model). It is a 100 mm fork, and the spacers are right for that (as in the picture), but I still get <90 mm travel. The axle to crown length is right for the specs (531 mm). To increase travel I have moved the cone shaped rubber bumper to below the plastic bumper, as indicated by the arrow (took off the plastic, moved the rubber and put the plastic back on). After that I get 97 mm of travel (which is ok). The hbo does not clonk up in the top when I compress fully this way (it does without the plastic bumpers, of course).

So, my questions are: is this an acceptable solution, or will something terrible happen if I run it this way? Is there another way to do this? Should it be this way?

I realize that I could remove a spacer to increase travel by 10 mm, but that would also lengthen the fork, which I want to avoid if I can.

*Edit:*_ After the discussion I have been convinced that this is a really bad idea, so crossed over the arrow._


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

olao said:


> Just got a new Mattoc Pro 29+ (2017 year model). It is a 100 mm fork, and the spacers are right for that (as in the picture), but I still get <90 mm travel. The axle to crown length is right for the specs (531 mm). To increase travel I have moved the cone shaped rubber bumper to below the plastic bumper, as indicated by the arrow (took off the plastic, moved the rubber and put the plastic back on). After that I get 97 mm of travel (which is ok). The hbo does not clonk up in the top when I compress fully this way (it does without the plastic bumpers, of course).
> 
> So, my questions are: is this an acceptable solution, or will something terrible happen if I run it this way? Is there another way to do this? Should it be this way?
> 
> ...


I would put it back to stock configuration, the plastic spacer to plastic air seal head contact isn't a good idea.
is your HBO adjustable?, if so turn it all the way to open (-) 
I'm assuming the fork has IPA tokens on the air spring side (not to be confused with the travel spacers, leave those alone), let the air out & undo the air side top cap, if it has tokens attached to the top cap, then remove 1 & replace the top cap, air the fork up & try it again. repeat the process to remove or add tokens to suit.
More tokens makes it more progressive, less makes it more linear.


----------



## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

cashews said:


> I would put it back to stock configuration, the plastic spacer to plastic air seal head contact isn't a good idea.


Good point! Thanks



cashews said:


> is your HBO adjustable?, if so turn it all the way to open (-)
> I'm assuming the fork has IPA tokens on the air spring side (not to be confused with the travel spacers, leave those alone), let the air out & undo the air side top cap, if it has tokens attached to the top cap, then remove 1 & replace the top cap, air the fork up & try it again. repeat the process to remove or add tokens to suit.
> More tokens makes it more progressive, less makes it more linear.


Sure, the HBO is adjustable, but that does not affect how much I can compress the fork by hand with depressurised airsprings. It is an IRT, so no tokens or anything. Currently, it is only the bumpers that prevent full travel.


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

o.k now I understand what your talking about, all the air is out & still not achieving 100mm travel when pressing down by hand.
I must have had beer on the brain talking about IPA, as IVA is the token system.

I seem to recall someone in the mattoc thread cut the lower plastic spacer(s)? to compensate for the rubber bumpers to achieve full travel, not sure how they got on long term.
I think there was another thread where some questions over what length air shaft a particular 29/27+ mattoc was supposed to have, but they may have had a shorter shaft or something along those lines.

Is yours a 140mm model reduced to 100?, is it possible it may be a another model so the travel spacers are reducing it accordingly.
Are you able to contact Hayes with the serial number to check what model it is.
you could always PM Dougal on here as he knows the mattoc well.

edit: just a thought, have you checked the oil height on the compression side, too much oil preventing full travel?.


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

olao said:


> Good point! Thanks
> 
> Sure, the HBO is adjustable, but that does not affect how much I can compress the fork by hand with depressurised airsprings. It is an IRT, so no tokens or anything. Currently, it is only the bumpers that prevent full travel.


Tweaking with the bottom out plastic spacer is the quickest way to end in the emergency room after going OTB because your tire hit the CSU on a full compression.
The plastic spacer is there to prevent your tire from hitting the CSU in a bottom out during big hits, and the rubber bumper is there to dissipate the shock when you bottom out.
In a bottom out the rubber bumper will compress under your weight, this kind of shock isn't easy to simulate with arm strength alone, that's why when you remove the air and compress the fork you won't get full travel.


----------



## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

cashews said:


> o.k now I understand what your talking about, all the air is out & still not achieving 100mm travel when pressing down by hand.
> I must have had beer on the brain talking about IPA, as IVA is the token system.


Exactly.
Well, the McLeod has an IPA 



cashews said:


> I seem to recall someone in the mattoc thread cut the lower plastic spacer(s)? to compensate for the rubber bumpers to achieve full travel, not sure how they got on long term.
> I think there was another thread where some questions over what length air shaft a particular 29/27+ mattoc was supposed to have, but they may have had a shorter shaft or something along those lines.


Ok, seems I have missed those threads. Will check. Cutting the lower spacers provbably weakens them too much. And also see the warning by Aglo...



cashews said:


> Is yours a 140mm model reduced to 100?, is it possible it may be a another model so the travel spacers are reducing it accordingly.
> Are you able to contact Hayes with the serial number to check what model it is.
> you could always PM Dougal on here as he knows the mattoc well.
> 
> edit: just a thought, have you checked the oil height on the compression side, too much oil preventing full travel?.


It says 100 mm on the box, and it can be adjusted from 80 to 120. Have checked the oil, and without the lower spacers I can push it until the HBO hits the top.


----------



## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Aglo said:


> Tweaking with the bottom out plastic spacer is the quickest way to end in the emergency room after going OTB because your tire hit the CSU on a full compression.
> The plastic spacer is there to prevent your tire from hitting the CSU in a bottom out during big hits, and the rubber bumper is there to dissipate the shock when you bottom out.
> In a bottom out the rubber bumper will compress under your weight, this kind of shock isn't easy to simulate with arm strength alone, that's why when you remove the air and compress the fork you won't get full travel.


Good point. However, at least with my current tires, I think there will be ample space even if I go an extra 10 mm. True though, that I have not done anything to simulate the compression of bumpers and spacers. Perhaps that will give me the travel I am missing.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Removing bottom-out spacers will mean you hit the end of HBO with a bang. Not a good thing. Happened to me once when I purchased an ex race fork and it had the wrong HBO cone fitted.

If you want a little more travel to match the numbers, trim the top-out bumpers. Do not mess with the bottom-out.


----------



## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Dougal said:


> Removing bottom-out spacers will mean you hit the end of HBO with a bang. Not a good thing. Happened to me once when I purchased an ex race fork and it had the wrong HBO cone fitted.
> 
> If you want a little more travel to match the numbers, trim the top-out bumpers. Do not mess with the bottom-out.


Got it. When trying by hand without air in springs, and with the bumber at the bottom and spacers above, it did not hit the HBO. However, under force in a real bottom-out the spacers perhaps compress a bit. So I will surely leave it in stock configuration, playing a bit with the travel adjust spacers, and feel how the bike handles.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

A friend has just installed a high flow piston and found no rebound damping on putting it back together. Before he takes it apart again to fix, what are the likely culprits?

shim order wrong? What is the stock order of rebound shims?
piston wrong way round? From memory, biggest ports on the top to cope with compression oil flow?
check shim misaligned or lodged open?

Any other advice?

Thanks


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

neb said:


> A friend has just installed a high flow piston and found no rebound damping on putting it back together. Before he takes it apart again to fix, what are the likely culprits?
> 
> shim order wrong? What is the stock order of rebound shims?
> piston wrong way round? From memory, biggest ports on the top to cope with compression oil flow?
> ...


Most likely trapped a shim when reassembling it.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Hey all, long time lurker. I used this thread to dial in my Mattoc pro 2 and to rebuild it myself. Excellent results and very happy with this fork.

CRC recently had the newest? version of the Mattoc Pro for sale for 58% off, so I just had to get it. $700 CDN shipped to my door.

Boost, 160mm, comes with IRT, also came with a bolt on mudguard! (and the newer Mezzer style colour scheme) Wondering from the techs in here...is there anything I should do/check before I install it on my bike? Winter is still here in Toronto so I have a few months before I am riding. 

Thanks all. Be safe!


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Hey all, long time lurker. I used this thread to dial in my Mattoc pro 2 and to rebuild it myself. Excellent results and very happy with this fork.
> 
> CRC recently had the newest? version of the Mattoc Pro for sale for 58% off, so I just had to get it. $700 CDN shipped to my door.
> 
> ...


A friend of mine just bought the CRC version - now he is afraid that it's the comp version and not the pro.

Anyone knows anything about it?


----------



## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

ForMartha said:


> A friend of mine just bought the CRC version - now he is afraid that it's the comp version and not the pro.
> 
> Anyone knows anything about it?


I have the comp and its a great fork, I don't think you'll be disappointed. For reference I have the Magnum Pro, I can't tell the difference really.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

kendunn said:


> I have the comp and its a great fork, I don't think you'll be disappointed. For reference I have the Magnum Pro, I can't tell the difference really.


While the comp is a great fork, I'd be upset if I paid for a pro model and got the heavier comp instead.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Curveball said:


> While the comp is a great fork, I'd be upset if I paid for a pro model and got the heavier comp instead.


Exactly my point.
Let's see what he'll get at the end. I hope it's the Pro version.


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## alcoride (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi All. Who Knows, where can i buy the new Manitou Mattoc comp Rebound Damper? Will dampers from others forks fit to mattoc?


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

alcoride said:


> Hi All. Who Knows, where can i buy the new Manitou Mattoc comp Rebound Damper? Will dampers from others forks fit to mattoc?
> 
> View attachment 1921298


Have you tried the Hayes website?


----------



## alcoride (Mar 16, 2021)

Curveball said:


> Have you tried the Hayes website?


yes: hayes, CRC, BI, BK, BD
they do not have it in stock


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

alcoride said:


> yes: hayes, CRC, BI, BK, BD
> they do not have it in stock


For what version?


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## alcoride (Mar 16, 2021)

Aglo said:


> For what version?


comp, 2019


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

alcoride said:


> Hi All. Who Knows, where can i buy the new Manitou Mattoc comp Rebound Damper? Will dampers from others forks fit to mattoc?
> 
> View attachment 1921298








Mattoc Comp 27.5" Rebound Damper (Manitou) | Shockcraft


Rebound damper assembly for Mattoc Comp 27" forks with ABS+ compression damper & HBO Includes rebound damper, rebound knob and 10 mm bottom-out spacer Manitou Part Code: 141-32405-K003




www.shockcraft.co.nz


----------



## alcoride (Mar 16, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Mattoc Comp 27.5" Rebound Damper (Manitou) | Shockcraft
> 
> 
> Rebound damper assembly for Mattoc Comp 27" forks with ABS+ compression damper & HBO Includes rebound damper, rebound knob and 10 mm bottom-out spacer Manitou Part Code: 141-32405-K003
> ...


thanx
it is very expensive compared fork )

Do everybody know, if the mattoc expert damper fits to comp fork?


----------



## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

Hey all, Wow, this is a big thread! Been browsing it for days getting ready to do a full service on my 2016? Magnum Pro 29+... 

So, I've got an IRT that i'm adding, got the new seals to install, got Motorex 5wt. and Manitou Semi-bath, and I assume the IRT and Seals will come with the Slickoleum... 

It's a Magnum, so the should have the updated air piston... What else am I missing? Seems I remember seeing something about a O-ring for the damper seal instead of the lip seal???

Any tips or things to look for?


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

alcoride said:


> thanx
> it is very expensive compared fork )
> 
> Do everybody know, if the mattoc expert damper fits to comp fork?


I don't think it will fit the comp fork. However, the stock abs+ damper seems very good. I don't know that you'd realize much advantage with the expert damper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghughes.hesinc said:


> Hey all, Wow, this is a big thread! Been browsing it for days getting ready to do a full service on my 2016? Magnum Pro 29+...
> 
> So, I've got an IRT that i'm adding, got the new seals to install, got Motorex 5wt. and Manitou Semi-bath, and I assume the IRT and Seals will come with the Slickoleum...
> 
> ...


Motorex 2.5wt. Not 5wt. Replace both side shaft seals with 10x3mm o-rings.


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Motorex 2.5wt. Not 5wt. Replace both side shaft seals with 10x3mm o-rings.


Got it, thank you! 10mm ID x 3mm Width, correct? Shaft seals, down at the foot bolts I assume... No recommended changes at the air piston seal or the damper?

Also, I would like to personally thank you, you've made a huge time commitment (as well as others) to make this thread a significant resource. It's people like you that make this place rad!


----------



## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghughes.hesinc said:


> Got it, thank you! 10mm ID x 3mm Width, correct? Shaft seals, down at the foot bolts I assume... No recommended changes at the air piston seal or the damper?
> 
> Also, I would like to personally thank you, you've made a huge time commitment (as well as others) to make this thread a significant resource. It's people like you that make this place rad!


Yes 10x3mm. In the stanchion end-caps on both sides. They are better at stopping air being sucked into the damper and bath oil being sucked into the air spring.

It's great to know I'm making a difference.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

So,
My friend who bought from CRC, recieved a Mattoc pro!
That's like the cheapest price I ever saw. The manufacture date is 2020. So it's a new revisited fork.

If it's still available, Id recommend to buy it for 450usd (!)


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Looks like the Mattoc Pro has been discontinued.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

TylerVernon said:


> Looks like the Mattoc Pro has been discontinued.


It is kinda redundant as the mezzer does everything the mattoc could only better without a significant weight penalty.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I dunno, a half pound difference is a lot. The mattoc is stiff as hell too, even in the gen1 non boost version, it's stiff like a f36. I think a mattoc makes a lot more sense in the 120-150mm travel range. 

I think it's just out of stock though.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> I dunno, a half pound difference is a lot. The mattoc is stiff as hell too, even in the gen1 non boost version, it's stiff like a f36. I think a mattoc makes a lot more sense in the 120-150mm travel range.
> 
> I think it's just out of stock though.


For some reason I thought it was less weight difference. My bad.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

006_007 said:


> It is kinda redundant as the mezzer does everything the mattoc could only better without a significant weight penalty.


I'm not so sure. RS has the Pike, lyrik and Zeb, Fox has the 34, 36 and 38.



One Pivot said:


> I dunno, a half pound difference is a lot. The mattoc is stiff as hell too, even in the gen1 non boost version, it's stiff like a f36. I think a mattoc makes a lot more sense in the 120-150mm travel range.
> 
> I think it's just out of stock though.


Agree. Hard charging trail bikes are better served with a lighter fork. Bike likes a Nukeproof reactor, Giant Trance-X, Propain Hugene, Orbea Occam, Stumpjumper etc. don't need a Mezzer.

I wouldn't mind a new 35mm Mattoc

1.850gr. (27.5)
120-160mm travel
Bit stiffer than the current 34mm
single 39mm offset (46mm for the 29)
Larger negative chamber
Dampers, with high flow piston and release valves from the Mezzer
Also gives lighter and female riders the option to not have an overly heavy and stiff fork at 160mm.

With 35mm stanchions it would give it also more new flair, so giving reason for sites to review it again as a nice follow up on the positive Mezzer reviews. I reckon product managers would be getting a hard timing arguing why they wouldn't spec so much value for money on their bikes.

I mean the Mattoc has been with us since 2014 so a bit of fresh air wouldn't harm it. Also even though the current Mattoc at 34mm might be stiff enough, speccing it on the above type of bikes 34mm would be viewed as too whimsy by many in the biking world. 35mm stanchions would both help give it more new model feel, give it a bit more attention and get it reviewed and would help in the perception of be not enough fork for those type of bikes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CS645 said:


> I'm not so sure. RS has the Pike, lyrik and Zeb, Fox has the 34, 36 and 38.
> 
> Agree. Hard charging trail bikes are better served with a lighter fork. Bike likes a Nukeproof reactor, Giant Trance-X, Propain Hugene, Orbea Occam, Stumpjumper etc. don't need a Mezzer.
> 
> ...


There is no good reason to change from 34 to 35mm tubes and many good reasons not to. There is no difference in fork stiffness between 34 and 35mm tubes. Stiffness is all made and lost in the crown, brace and drop-outs.

Mattoc vs Mezzer. The Mattoc is a lot less progressive and 200g (10%) is significant. I built up a Mattoc Pro Boost for Mrs Dougal recently for exactly those reasons.
The previous models just really missed out with the 29" wheel sizes.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> There is no good reason to change from 34 to 35mm tubes and many good reasons not to. There is no difference in fork stiffness between 34 and 35mm tubes. Stiffness is all made and lost in the crown, brace and drop-outs.
> 
> Mattoc vs Mezzer. The Mattoc is a lot less progressive and 200g (10%) is significant. I built up a Mattoc Pro Boost for Mrs Dougal recently for exactly those reasons.
> The previous models just really missed out with the 29" wheel sizes.


I know Dougal, technically there is no reason to go 35mm, the Lyrik was plenty stiff as well at 35mm, just as the Mattoc is at 34mm. It's just the perception, but perception still matters. I think at 35mm more product managers and end users would consider it, even though the current 34mm Mattoc might be good enough. It's not like it's gonna get technically worse at 35mm. I've had two Mattoc's (both with your high flow piston), still own one and working very well after 6 years of riding! I lowered it to 150mm and added an angle-set to the bike and now the fork and geometry (140mm rear) are working much better then when it was set at 160mm.

The bike with the other one I sold to a friend. Another friend recently bought a 2021 Mattoc. I helped him with the IRT ratio's and he's really loving it (quite a big difference in the arch btw compared to mine). So I love my Mattoc's, but it think it deserves a bit more attention to the wider public. Also the lack of short offset doesn't help in the market and the 29er version is a bit heavy.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

I carefully read your inputs @Dougal and @CS645 and I think the same. The Mezzer is an amazing fork, but I'm not an enduro rider. I like going fast and hitting drops and rocks, but I'm far from the hardcore enduro style.

The Only Mattoc I found is an outdated version (2018) which costs almost like the Mezzer Pro. What are my options if I'd like to save a bit weight and still own a good fork?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

ForMartha said:


> I carefully read your inputs @Dougal and @CS645 and I think the same. The Mezzer is an amazing fork, but I'm not an enduro rider. I like going fast and hitting drops and rocks, but I'm far from the hardcore enduro style.
> 
> The Only Mattoc I found is an outdated version (2018) which costs almost like the Mezzer Pro. What are my options if I'd like to save a bit weight and still own a good fork?


How much travel do you want and is it 27.5 or 29? A Mattoc 3 isn't really outdated and if you need the 27.5 version it's 1,81kg.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

CS645 said:


> How much travel do you want and is it 27.5 or 29? A Mattoc 3 isn't really outdated and if you need the 27.5 version it's 1,81kg.


I'm using a 29er Hightower MY2018 and I'm fine with 140mm or 150mm.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

ForMartha said:


> I'm using a 29er Hightower MY2018 and I'm fine with 140mm or 150mm.


In that case you indeed might as well go for the Mezzer. You're not gaining any significant weight compared to the 29 Mattoc and if you choose the Expert (possibly put an IRT in) you get a bloody good fork for the money.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

CS645 said:


> In that case you indeed might as well go for the Mezzer. You're not gaining any significant weight compared to the 29 Mattoc and if you choose the Expert (possibly put an IRT in) you get a bloody good fork for the money.


Tried to compare both, but I don't know what's the benefit of the Expert over the pro when it boils down to around 200 bucks. (Add the IRT, and you'll be at 150 difference).

Thanks,
Mor


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

ForMartha said:


> Tried to compare both, but I don't know what's the benefit of the Expert over the pro when it boils down to around 200 bucks. (Add the IRT, and you'll be at 150 difference).
> 
> Thanks,
> Mor


Besides the price, if you're not an expert on damper settings it's less likely to screw up your settings on the expert.

The pro gives you more advanced damper adjustments and the hydraulic bottom out at the end of the stroke.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's a Mattoc & McLeod slo-mo video:

__
http://instagr.am/p/CNRJjL-FZJn/

Fork is a Mattoc Pro Boost, damper has my highflow piston with a custom compression tune on top. Custom internal machining to reduce lower leg pressure build-up and the whole fork stuck in the spring-tester to give a flat 30lb/in with only modest ramp-up.


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Here's a Mattoc & McLeod slo-mo video:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CNRJjL-FZJn/
> ...


 Yesterday I rode the new Mattoc Pro on 27.5 (MY20) Mondraker Foxy MY16. It was freaking amazing!

Every turn on the knob mad a huge difference in the shock behavior. It rides high in the travel and was buttery smooth. I love it!


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## alfymtb (Aug 14, 2019)

Hi guys fantastic thread this, been reading as much as I can but couldn't find an answer for my observations. 
Just fitted a set of 2021 mattoc pro 27.5 boost forks to my hardtail.
Bought new front CRC.
I dropped the travel to 150mm & set up pressures as per the setting on the fork. When I compress the fork + let it return. It doesn't return fully. 
It only returns to about 142mm travel. I have to physically pull the fork up to get it to return to full 150mm.
It almost feels like a dead spot in travel (undamped). Any ideas?
I also dont notice much of a difference in LSC. From fully open to fully closed I can still compress the fork same distance 
Is this normal? I've only been on RS forks before so still getting to grips with manitou. 
Thanks in advance & sorry for the long post


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

alfymtb said:


> Hi guys fantastic thread this, been reading as much as I can but couldn't find an answer for my observations.
> Just fitted a set of 2021 mattoc pro 27.5 boost forks to my hardtail.
> Bought new front CRC.
> I dropped the travel to 150mm & set up pressures as per the setting on the fork. When I compress the fork + let it return. It doesn't return fully.
> ...


Connect the pump again and pull the fork to full height. The fork will want to stay at whatever height it's at when the pump is removed and it will have been pushed down a bit before.


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## alfymtb (Aug 14, 2019)

Hi Dougal, thanks for the quick reply. I tried what you suggested, unfortunately it's still the same.


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

Anyone on Dougal’s high-flow piston? I’ve got one coming and just wondering how everyone is liking it. I’m a Clyde at 220 and I’m putting it in a 120mm 29+ Magnum on a krampus running Midwest general trail... hoping to get a little help with the big rock and root hits while still running a fair amount of HSC. 

Just curious what your thoughts may be...


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Fork is a Mattoc Pro Boost, damper has my highflow piston with a custom compression tune on top. Custom internal machining to reduce lower leg pressure build-up and the whole fork stuck in the spring-tester to give a flat 30lb/in with only modest ramp-up.


You have my attention. How much for a zoom tune on a Mattoc Pro 3 in USD?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ordered a Mattoc Pro 27+/29 120mm from Rose Bikes, $740 shipped, two week wait. It'll serve dual purpose on my Shred Dogg and Tilt. 

Rose Bikes and Star Bikes have forks in stock, worth the wait, esp. at that price.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TylerVernon said:


> You have my attention. How much for a zoom tune on a Mattoc Pro 3 in USD?


I haven't got it sorted into a retail package yet. Problem is we need all the hardware in our workshop so it's going to be painful to do from overseas.

The high flow pistons and setup guides are an excellent middle ground though.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Alright, well, I need to send it to you anyway to do something to the bushings because it has a lot of stiction.


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## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi, I have a mattoc pro 29er 120mm and I love it, except for one issue. I am only getting about 100mm of travel. I have messed with IRT & Main Settings, but cannot squeeze out that last inch. Any suggestions? Thanks, JD


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

Alpenglow said:


> Hi, I have a mattoc pro 29er 120mm and I love it, except for one issue. I am only getting about 100mm of travel. I have messed with IRT & Main Settings, but cannot squeeze out that last inch. Any suggestions? Thanks, JD


Did you measure the travel used or the stanchion remained? Mattoc doesn't use all the stanchion at bottom out. You can deflate both IRT and main with pump connected, and hand push to see the bottom out position. HBO doesn't impact the result at such slow speed.

Few more questions. What is your HBO setting? What's your riding style and terrain? Do you have big airtime?


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I was doing a lower leg service on my mattoc pro and it looked like a drop of damper oil was running down the damper side shaft. So I wiggled the shaft side ways a bit and more damper ran down the shaft. Wouldn't think that is normal. Time to replace some seals inside the damper side?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

upsha said:


> Did you measure the travel used or the stanchion remained? Mattoc doesn't use all the stanchion at bottom out. You can deflate both IRT and main with pump connected, and hand push to see the bottom out position. HBO doesn't impact the result at such slow speed.
> 
> Few more questions. What is your HBO setting? What's your riding style and terrain? Do you have big airtime?


I started using tape to mark full travel to make it easier to tell.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry if this came up, but I lost track of this thread a while back. Is the Mattoc discontinued and if so is Manitou coming out with a new 34/35 stanchion trail fork? Unfortunately my Mattoc pro 26/27.5 could not come with me when I switched to a boost 29er which has a Bomber Z2, but I sure miss it - both in terms of suppleness and adjustability and getting service advice (no one online or at Fox can help me in getting the correct amount of damper oil in terms of height). Meanwhile, the Mattoc appears nearly completely MIA in store inventory. If there is something new on the horizon I'd be glad to hear about it.


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## mooha (Apr 14, 2021)

Hi all

Fantastic thread, made me make up my mind on purchase, now have Mattoc pro 3, and yeah its a great fork.
One question, how hard it is to remove dust seals, as someone mentioned they are tougher now without c-clips, is it doable without damaging them?
I dont have spare ones and would like to clean up and refresh lowers (made the tools, have proper oil).
Guessing it cant be done properly with dust and foam seals inside? :/ 
Afraid to mess seals up when removing..

Cheers!


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## trailhawk (Jul 29, 2020)

mooha said:


> Hi all
> 
> Fantastic thread, made me make up my mind on purchase, now have Mattoc pro 3, and yeah its a great fork.
> One question, how hard it is to remove dust seals, as someone mentioned they are tougher now without c-clips, is it doable without damaging them?
> ...


I replaced dust seals on Mattoc Pro 3 a few weeks ago. I had to heat them up with a hand held commercial heater (bought from big box store for $30) for a few minutes before I could use my all steel tire lever to wedge them out. It took a whole lot of arm strength and I thought I would never get it out. Without heating it, I was tearing up the seal and the metal insert was coming through! Once hot it came out though. I used the Park Tool all metal lever to get the leverage.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Yes 10x3mm. In the stanchion end-caps on both sides. They are better at stopping air being sucked into the damper and bath oil being sucked into the air spring.
> 
> It's great to know I'm making a difference.


I wonder if this is why my fork has been feeling so off lately. I changed oil to a heavier weight oil just to see, and the original oil was very foamy. This felt ok for a few rides, then didn't feel right, so I thought it was the weight oil and went back to Motorex 2.5 wt, and the new oil I had just put in their looked foamy. I didn't think much of it.

Felt ok for few rides, now feels terrible. I haven't checked the oil again to see if it foamy. Going to Shockcraft and ordering 10x3mm O rings right now.

Is the install straightforward?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

neb said:


> A friend has just installed a high flow piston and found no rebound damping on putting it back together. Before he takes it apart again to fix, what are the likely culprits?
> 
> shim order wrong? What is the stock order of rebound shims?
> piston wrong way round? From memory, biggest ports on the top to cope with compression oil flow?
> ...


This happened to me too. I can't point to anything specific I did but ended up trying a few times and finally got it right.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I wonder if this is why my fork has been feeling so off lately. I changed oil to a heavier weight oil just to see, and the original oil was very foamy. This felt ok for a few rides, then didn't feel right, so I thought it was the weight oil and went back to Motorex 2.5 wt, and the new oil I had just put in their looked foamy. I didn't think much of it.
> 
> Felt ok for few rides, now feels terrible. I haven't checked the oil again to see if it foamy. Going to Shockcraft and ordering 10x3mm O rings right now.
> 
> Is the install straightforward?


Heavier weight oil will make the mid-valve choke more and pull more air in through the damper shaft seal. The combo of high flow piston, tighter o-ring seal on the shaft and running more compression damping will cure foaming.

If you lose rebound damping with a shim/piston swap then there's a shim out of place. Check they are all centred and the check shim underneath the piston can snap freely up and down before final assembly.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Damper side has a 10x15x4 lip seal, air side has a quad-ring. Replace both with 10x3mm orings and you'll get better sealing with almost no oil migration.
> 
> You will need to remove the PTFE backup ring in the air side to fit the fatter oring.


Are these where to replace with 10x3mm Oring? and the backup PTFE is the smaller one?
Thanks


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

What limits the travel to 120mm in the 29+ version?

I've got a Magnum that I'm running a 29x2.6 DHF in, is it possible to bump it to 130/140? Is it a question of the air shaft length, Rebound shaft, HBO cone, or just spacers for the massive diameter of the 29+ tire?

I'm not against making some mods or replacing an air shaft if I could squeak out 10-20mm...

I was surprised to find these big white spacer on the shafts in the lowers?.?. Haven't seen them in any of the service videos... 









There's also 2 black 10mm spacers on the air shaft inside the stanchion. If anyone could shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghughes.hesinc said:


> What limits the travel to 120mm in the 29+ version?
> 
> I've got a Magnum that I'm running a 29x2.6 DHF in, is it possible to bump it to 130/140? Is it a question of the air shaft length, Rebound shaft, HBO cone, or just spacers for the massive diameter of the 29+ tire?
> 
> ...


Limited by the design of the fork really. It shares the same stanchions/bushings etc as the Mattoc & Mastodon but instead of putting the dropouts out in the middle of nowhere they moved the brace up and limited travel under the bumpers (big white spacers). That caps you at 120mm max. You may be able to squeak out a few more mm by massaging top-out bumpers etc and depending on what your overall tyre diameter is.


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## mooha (Apr 14, 2021)

trailhawk said:


> I replaced dust seals on Mattoc Pro 3 a few weeks ago. I had to heat them up with a hand held commercial heater (bought from big box store for $30) for a few minutes before I could use my all steel tire lever to wedge them out. It took a whole lot of arm strength and I thought I would never get it out. Without heating it, I was tearing up the seal and the metal insert was coming through! Once hot it came out though. I used the Park Tool all metal lever to get the leverage.


Damn!.. Feared it might be so  Thanks anyway, will try to clean it up without removing seal.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

What's the opinion of Maxima 3wt oil for 140lbs rider on Mattoc Pro at 160mm?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> What's the opinion of Maxima 3wt oil for 140lbs rider on Mattoc Pro at 160mm?


Fine in the warm. Apparently not so good for snow-bike riding.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

ashwinearl said:


> Are these where to replace with 10x3mm Oring? and the backup PTFE is the smaller one?
> Thanks
> View attachment 1926465
> View attachment 1926466


No. On the other end of both assemblies, on the inside of the seal heads.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

I think I figured out where the 10x3mm O-rings go now. Previous posts make a lot more sense now.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I think I figured out where the 10x3mm O-rings go now. Previous posts make a lot more sense now.
> View attachment 1927353


You need to take the white PTFE backup ring out of that end-cap. It will be too tight with that in there and give no room for the larger o-ring to expand sideways as it is squeezed radially.


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Have been trying to modify the shimstack on my Mattoc Pro 3, 29+ 100mm. Initially it felt a tad harsh and with little effect of going from open to closed on the LSC and even less effect of the HSC. The stack it had was this, from top down to piston:

10x12x0.2 // 10x21x0.2 // 8x21x0.2 // 8x11x0.25 // 8x17.5x0.1

The 8x21x0.2 is shaped like a saucer, as it was pushed between the edge and the bottom of the piston, and I guess that it was what made damping unresponsive to changes in LSC and HSC.

The first thing I tried was simply removing the 8x21, but that just made the fork too soft. So, I have tried a bunch of different stacks, including adding a couple of 8x19x0.15 above the 8x17.5x0.1 (with surprisingly little effect). The best stack so far is

10x12x0.2 // 10x19x0.2 // 10x21x0.2 // 8x11x0.25 // 8x17x0.2 // 8x17.5x0.1

(the reason for the 10x19 and 8x17 is simply that I don’t have any more 10x21 or 8x17.5). With this stack the fork is plush and comfortable with the LSC one or two clicks from open and HSC rather closed. It is clearly firmer, but still not really firm enough, for standing up on a steep climb with the LSC closed. I have tried adding two more 8x17x0.2, but that just made the fork too stiff for going on bumpy trail, while still not being firm on the steep climbs.

So what should I do to make it go from plush to properly firm when I go from open to close LSC? Put in a 10x21x0.3 on the HSC? Or am I thinking this backwards somewhere or expecting too much?


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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

olao said:


> Have been trying to modify the shimstack on my Mattoc Pro 3, 29+ 100mm. Initially it felt a tad harsh and with little effect of going from open to closed on the LSC and even less effect of the HSC. The stack it had was this, from top down to piston:
> 
> 10x12x0.2 // 10x21x0.2 // 8x21x0.2 // 8x11x0.25 // 8x17.5x0.1
> 
> ...


For harshness (especially if feeling on head on impacts), I really think bushing burnishing is the biggest thing you can do. You'd gain a lot more than trying to tune and already well tuned damper imo.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just received a Mattoc Pro 3, 27+/29, 120mm (140mm Max ).

Rose Bikes has these forks in stock for a nice discount, I laid $750 shipped, the fork arrived on eighteen days.

communiction was good, all email notifications.

the fork was loose packed in a box, factory box not included, but they did include the travel adjuster package.

Mattoc weight uncut with axle 1920 grams.

For comparison, a Bomber Z2 with axle, 27.5 x 140mm fork, steerer cut to 8”, was 1970 grams.

The fork clears a 29 x 2.5 DHF on an Asym i29 with 10+ mm to spare,I think a 29 x 2.6 would be tight.

Still waiting on my Canfield Tilt, but I may swap the Mattoc on my Shred Dogg to see how t compares to the Motion Ride..


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

croakies said:


> For harshness (especially if feeling on head on impacts), I really think bushing burnishing is the biggest thing you can do. You'd gain a lot more than trying to tune and already well tuned damper imo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Well, by all means, but the fork is not harsh in general. It is smooth without the 8x21x0.2. I don't know how common that stack is, but it basically adds an extra platform/HSC fixed in closed position, if I see what is going on. The only thing I'm after now is to find a tuning that will be plush with LSC open and firm with it closed. I'm nearly there, but not quite.


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

olao said:


> Well, by all means, but the fork is not harsh in general. It is smooth without the 8x21x0.2. I don't know how common that stack is, but it basically adds an extra platform/HSC fixed in closed position, if I see what is going on. The only thing I'm after now is to find a tuning that will be plush with LSC open and firm with it closed. I'm nearly there, but not quite.


If you're after lockout-like platform, the closest you can do with a Mattoc is to close both LSC and HSC. I don't think you can get a single knob answer without dual piston kind of setup, which is very much a Fox FIT4.

LSC adjusts how much force is needed at low shaft speed, from nearly zero to the shim preload force. Pedal platform needs lots of preload, which makes that shim not useful for trail riding. You can run LSC wide open with a very heavily preloaded shim, but that creates a quadratic damping behavior before the shim kick in, so no support at low shaft speed, then hit a wall of force deep into travel from both platform damping and spring force.

For descending focused trail riding, the rule of thumb is to try various HSC with closed LSC, then adjust LSC from closed to your own flavor. The same apply to shim stiffness.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olao said:


> Have been trying to modify the shimstack on my Mattoc Pro 3, 29+ 100mm. Initially it felt a tad harsh and with little effect of going from open to closed on the LSC and even less effect of the HSC. The stack it had was this, from top down to piston:
> 
> 10x12x0.2 // 10x21x0.2 // 8x21x0.2 // 8x11x0.25 // 8x17.5x0.1
> 
> ...


The 8x21mm shim is the difference between the normal Mattoc tunes and the Plus version tunes. The idea is that plus tyre bikes have blunted compression speeds so need more compression damping in the rest of the speed range.
Feel free to take it out and test.

LSC port on the Mattoc MC^2 damper is big so close that fully and see how your shim stack feels.

You haven't mentioned how heavy you are (bigger riders need more damping) or what pressure you are running.


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

upsha said:


> If you're after lockout-like platform, the closest you can do with a Mattoc is to close both LSC and HSC. I don't think you can get a single knob answer without dual piston kind of setup, which is very much a Fox FIT4.
> 
> LSC adjusts how much force is needed at low shaft speed, from nearly zero to the shim preload force. Pedal platform needs lots of preload, which makes that shim not useful for trail riding. You can run LSC wide open with a very heavily preloaded shim, but that creates a quadratic damping behavior before the shim kick in, so no support at low shaft speed, then hit a wall of force deep into travel from both platform damping and spring force.
> 
> For descending focused trail riding, the rule of thumb is to try various HSC with closed LSC, then adjust LSC from closed to your own flavor. The same apply to shim stiffness.





Dougal said:


> The 8x21mm shim is the difference between the normal Mattoc tunes and the Plus version tunes. The idea is that plus tyre bikes have blunted compression speeds so need more compression damping in the rest of the speed range.
> Feel free to take it out and test.
> 
> LSC port on the Mattoc MC^2 damper is big so close that fully and see how your shim stack feels.
> ...


Thanks both. I know I can't get full lock-out, but was just hoping to be able to increase firmness a little more at closed LSC. Giving that idea up, today I tried running LSC closed, or one click open, and opened up HSC more than I probably had before, and now it really feels great (using a stack that is 10x19x0.2 // 10x21x0.2 // 8x11x0.25 // 8x17x0.2 // 8x17.5x0.1) . Smooth over roots and small rocks, but nicely stable. Still only that bit when I need to stand up on a steep climb, when it sinks and wallows a bit under my weight. Guess I just have to learn to sit tight.

Ok, I figured that 8x21 shim might be a 29+ thing. I am only running 2.35" tires, so don't actually need a +, but the fork was so cheap I couldn't help myself.

I am about 90 kg (he said hopingly&#8230 and 192 cm. I am currently running 65 psi in the main and 85 in the IRT. Started off following the recommendations in the book (100/200), but wow, that was bouncy.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> You need to take the white PTFE backup ring out of that end-cap. It will be too tight with that in there and give no room for the larger o-ring to expand sideways as it is squeezed radially.


I installed the 10x3mm O-rings. Is there more friction with the better sealing? Did you end up changing any major settings, Air, IRT, HSC, LSC, rebound) after going to 10x3mm O-rings? I only have one ride, but have less rebound , less HSC at the moment, I am using the high flow piston. This is on an older fork so am not sure if there is just friction/stiction in general on it. I have a new old stock fork that I'm going to do the 10x3mm O-rings and high flow piston for comparison.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I installed the 10x3mm O-rings. Is there more friction with the better sealing? Did you end up changing any major settings, Air, IRT, HSC, LSC, rebound) after going to 10x3mm O-rings? I only have one ride, but have less rebound , less HSC at the moment, I am using the high flow piston. This is on an older fork so am not sure if there is just friction/stiction in general on it. I have a new old stock fork that I'm going to do the 10x3mm O-rings and high flow piston for comparison.


Yes they have a little more friction. There's a tradeoff between friction and sealing. You have gone to a freshly serviced fork which is one reason why it's going to feel softer. 
You'll now be able to run more LSC without harshness. Rebound is unaffected.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I think I figured out where the 10x3mm O-rings go now. Previous posts make a lot more sense now.
> View attachment 1927352


I am working on my second fork. How are you supposed to get this end cap off the damper assembly? I put an 18mm on the other end of the damper assembly on the flat spot but that end came off. This endcap is still on the damper assembly outer rod.

Do I need a block for holding round tubes?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> I am working on my second fork. How are you supposed to get this end cap off the damper assembly? I put an 18mm on the other end of the damper assembly on the flat spot but that end came off. This endcap is still on the damper assembly outer rod.
> 
> Do I need a block for holding round tubes?


Yes. This is the official clamp block: Shaft Clamp Block (Manitou) | Shockcraft


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

How much grease (Slickoleum) do you pack on top of the air piston?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> How much grease (Slickoleum) do you pack on top of the air piston?


I coat the inside of the stanchion, grease the quad-ring and the piston picks up the grease on the way into the stanchion.


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## magicmoose (May 7, 2021)

Hi there,
After the last service (increased travel to 140), my Mattoc Comp 2021 120mm developed a rattle, it's these plastic bottom out spacer I cannot make them stay where they should when I put the fork together - sliding in the lowers always seems to be messing with the spacers (both air and damper side), leaving a bit of slack between them and those caps that you slide on top of them to hold them in place. The spacers never hold firmly and rattle like crazy.
Does anyone know how I properly fit them, get rid of the slack? Did I miss something when putting it together?
Cheers,
Mac


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Finally got some free time to work on the Mattoc Pro 3 29, cracked her open, pulled the travel spacers, she’s now a glorious 140mm!

First ride, fork feels great, supple, stictionless, some minor pressure tweaks, 70/100, +1 HSC, + 2 LSC, +2 R.

I may bump the IRT pressure a touch to increase bottom out resistance, but so far it feels really good.

it feels better than my Mezzer ever did ....


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I liked the Mattoc Pro 3 it so much I got a second one for Shred ... this one is going on the Canfield Tilt (when it arrives).

Rose Bikes USA and Starr Bikes have these forks in stock, but they won't last long now that summer has arrived.


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Limited by the design of the fork really. It shares the same stanchions/bushings etc as the Mattoc & Mastodon but instead of putting the dropouts out in the middle of nowhere they moved the brace up and limited travel under the bumpers (big white spacers). That caps you at 120mm max. You may be able to squeak out a few more mm by massaging top-out bumpers etc and depending on what your overall tyre diameter is.


There are two 10mm spacers on the air spring shaft, between the spool shaped spacer and the top-out bumper&#8230; is there a reason these can't be removed? It seems to me that this would increase travel without changing bottom out clearances, unless the stanchions aren't long enough to provide proper bushing overlap or the rebound damper shaft won't extend enough to clear the 10-20mm's of additional extension.

I have a magnum pro 29+ 120mm


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

had a mattoc pro 160 on my FS and now put a comp (or expert? unsure) on my hardtail
i had tried the recommended settings as a starting point and was never happy, so i bought a digital pump thinking that my cheap pump was way off.
i went straight to 60 psi on my 150mm hardtail, which was the min recommended for my 78kg weight, this was way too firm. I dropped down to 53, feels ok
I then too ka look at my FS at 160mm, it was set mid 70's in the main chamber and 130+ in the IRT
thta was massively different to anything i had seen people running, so i tried 50 main 70 irt or there abouts and was pretty much riding on the HBO with very little effort.
ive now gone up a little bit more to 55/100 and sag looks.. ok ish... but its again very easy (in the car park) to use lots of travle, so ive maxxed LSC experimentally. but i still feel my inialt high pressures are required.

My point is, can this be correct? or have i got a fork issue? it is due its second 50 hour service...


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> it feels better than my Mezzer ever did ....


I'm surprised. My Mezzer is the smoothest fork that I've ever ridden. I think that Manitou should have named it the Chunkeater instead of Mezzer though.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Curveball said:


> I'm surprised. My Mezzer is the smoothest fork that I've ever ridden. I think that Manitou should have named it the Chunkeater instead of Mezzer though.


Apparently all Manitou fork names need to start with an "M". It makes for a real mouthful.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Alan1977 said:


> had a mattoc pro 160 on my FS and now put a comp (or expert? unsure) on my hardtail
> i had tried the recommended settings as a starting point and was never happy, so i bought a digital pump thinking that my cheap pump was way off.
> i went straight to 60 psi on my 150mm hardtail, which was the min recommended for my 78kg weight, this was way too firm. I dropped down to 53, feels ok
> I then too ka look at my FS at 160mm, it was set mid 70's in the main chamber and 130+ in the IRT
> ...


I run 40/80 for aggressive riding with my Mattoc Pro. I've run up to 30/90 as a split with good results also but makes the fork more progressive.
As a single chamber 45psi was the best.
To run with LSC closed I had to fit a high flow piston.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Apparently all Manitou fork names need to start with an "M". It makes for a real mouthful.


Maybe Mountain Mauler then?


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

Dougal said:


> I run 40/80 for aggressive riding with my Mattoc Pro. I've run up to 30/90 as a split with good results also but makes the fork more progressive.
> As a single chamber 45psi was the best.
> To run with LSC closed I had to fit a high flow piston.


Thanks Dougal, thats the sort of figures i was trying..
Im not even close at that, i can be on the HBO riding along a fire road.
I'm gearing up a for a 50 hour service right now.. i've either got a seal issue OR 3 differnet pumps i have used are all way out .....


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

Curveball said:


> I'm surprised. My Mezzer is the smoothest fork that I've ever ridden. I think that Manitou should have named it the Chunkeater instead of Mezzer though.


Going from my personal experience I have to agree with nurse ben, I prefered the feel of my mattoc, I'm hoping burnishing my mezzer will change my mind as the handlebar feedback is starting to get a bit old.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Dougal said:


> Apparently all Manitou fork names need to start with an "M". It makes for a real mouthful.


Ok, the Maneater. The Meateater. The Mob Boss. The Milfhunter. The Macrophage. Lots of good names.


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## Dyceman (Oct 16, 2015)

Sorry if this has been asked previously. I tried looking through the history but didn’t find an answer to my problem.
I have a Mattoc Pro 2. After the last service I noticed I no longer seem to have any low speed compression damping. I figured the damper fluid must be under filled so I removed the damper and carefully ensured it was degassed and 75mm from the top. I also cycled it plenty of times to try to remove any air. I put the damper back in and still no noticeable change when cycling through all settings of the low speed compression knob. But I can feel a difference with the high speed compression. Turning the knob doesn’t feel any different than it used to, there are still easily discernible clicks. Any ideas?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

Heya,

Is the Mattoc Comp shares the same damper as the Mezzer Expert? Plus, is there a way to install ORT in it?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ForMartha said:


> Heya,
> 
> Is the Mattoc Comp shares the same damper as the Mezzer Expert? Plus, is there a way to install ORT in it?


Mattoc Comp was ABS+. Mezzer Expert is VTT.
You can install IRT in the comp but you need to swap the smaller Comp IVA piston onto the Pro IRT. You also need to check threads as there are coarse and fine thread top-caps. Fine threads have a white dot on them.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dyceman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked previously. I tried looking through the history but didn't find an answer to my problem.
> I have a Mattoc Pro 2. After the last service I noticed I no longer seem to have any low speed compression damping. I figured the damper fluid must be under filled so I removed the damper and carefully ensured it was degassed and 75mm from the top. I also cycled it plenty of times to try to remove any air. I put the damper back in and still no noticeable change when cycling through all settings of the low speed compression knob. But I can feel a difference with the high speed compression. Turning the knob doesn't feel any different than it used to, there are still easily discernible clicks. Any ideas?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you turn both the HSC and LSC clockwise (closed), does the fork feel lockout?


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## Dyceman (Oct 16, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> If you turn both the HSC and LSC clockwise (closed), does the fork feel lockout?


No. If I turn both HSC and LSC fully closed, I can tell there is some damping happening, it feels slower to some degree, but certainly not locked out. 
I should probably clarify that I am testing this with everything fully assembled and barely any air in the fork. That way the fork can move through its travel very easily and I had hoped it would be pretty easy to feel changes in LSC. But again I can cycle it from fully closed to open and feel no difference. 
So if I am confident that my damper fluid level is correct, what would be the next thing to check?
I never rode with much LSC anyway, so I'm still riding it and it feels great. But it's an issue I still want to get sorted out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dyceman said:


> No. If I turn both HSC and LSC fully closed, I can tell there is some damping happening, it feels slower to some degree, but certainly not locked out.
> I should probably clarify that I am testing this with everything fully assembled and barely any air in the fork. That way the fork can move through its travel very easily and I had hoped it would be pretty easy to feel changes in LSC. But again I can cycle it from fully closed to open and feel no difference.
> So if I am confident that my damper fluid level is correct, what would be the next thing to check?
> I never rode with much LSC anyway, so I'm still riding it and it feels great. But it's an issue I still want to get sorted out.
> ...


Honestly, it still might be normal. The low speed compression adjustment does very little (in terms of push feel) unless you have some of the HSC dialed in. With that said, I find it makes a difference on the trail when used alone.

I would put air in the fork and do the HSC and LSC fully closed test. If that locks out, you are most likely fine.


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## Dyceman (Oct 16, 2015)

Vespasianus said:


> Honestly, it still might be normal. The low speed compression adjustment does very little (in terms of push feel) unless you have some of the HSC dialed in. With that said, I find it makes a difference on the trail when used alone.
> 
> I would put air in the fork and do the HSC and LSC fully closed test. If that locks out, you are most likely fine.


I think you're right. With both HSC and LSC closed, it is more damping than I would ever want, so if I need more damping, I can just increase them together. Thanks for the help.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dyceman said:


> I think you're right. With both HSC and LSC closed, it is more damping than I would ever want, so if I need more damping, I can just increase them together. Thanks for the help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's how it's supposed to work. It's not a lockout damper.
Best results are generally with LSC closed or mostly closed and HSC open.


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## Dyceman (Oct 16, 2015)

Dougal said:


> That's how it's supposed to work. It's not a lockout damper.
> Best results are generally with LSC closed or mostly closed and HSC open.


Thanks.
And thanks for all you (and the others) have contributed to this thread over the years. The info I have learned here has given me the confidence to do all of my own maintenance and just given me a better understanding of how this fork works. I've been so happy with the performance of this fork. Cheers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Dyceman said:


> I think you're right. With both HSC and LSC closed, it is more damping than I would ever want, so if I need more damping, I can just increase them together. Thanks for the help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I always liked this guide as it shows how the low speed and high speed work together. Looks at slides 2-4, where they show different low speed settings. Pay close attention to the Y-axis on each graph.

I personally found that each click of the LSC even had an impact on the trail even if you don't feel any difference in a simple push test. If you have any fast G-out sections, you will notice that even a single click of the LSC can prevent bottom out.


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

so i bit the bullet and pulled the fork apart yesterday. 
the oil that came out was cloudy, not sure if it was an emulsion of water or had taken some of the grease out? its around about the 50 hours since last service )well i work on around 350 miles seems about right for me)
i cleaned every thing up including the IRT
used slick honey on the seals, and shafts, and a bit up inside the stanchion
re oiled the foam rings and greased the dust seals
back together, 5cc of 5wt in the lowers (was waiting on some 7.5 but had 5 around)
back together,
~43 main ~63 irt
1 click of lsc, 4 of HBO
4 of rebound

and rode..
Oh..My...God...
it must have been not performing right for a very long time, i rode some of my favourite trails, rooty short descent, well the roots disappeared.
loamy off camber turns, id usually feel really sketchy on, no just rode it
flat turns with braking bumps.. again invisible
big ole chunky root gardens, no problem

using all but the HBO area of the fork without leaving the ground much, but it feels so good


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Alan1977 said:


> so i bit the bullet and pulled the fork apart yesterday.
> the oil that came out was cloudy, not sure if it was an emulsion of water or had taken some of the grease out? its around about the 50 hours since last service )well i work on around 350 miles seems about right for me)
> i cleaned every thing up including the IRT
> used slick honey on the seals, and shafts, and a bit up inside the stanchion
> ...


The stock lowers oil is a 5W40 that is about 4x thicker than the 5wt you've used. Any oil is better than none but you can go a lot thicker with bath oil than damper oil.

The dampers tend to suck air in by the lower cap seal and that foams up the oil. Result is hard to get full travel. If you upgrade the lower seals to 10x3 o-rings (stock uses a 10x15x4 lip seal) it will help a lot and if you change to a high flow piston as well as running more LSC it stops it totally.

Welcome to the world of suspension that works!


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

i think.. i may have used engine oil previously.
hmm, i had researched and decided 7.5wt oil was appropriate? this isn't the case? im guessing i can do a partial drain and refill and that will be fine?
maybe that was the emulsion i saw then? 
interesting, by lower seals, do you mean the seals that go in the guides that screw into the stanchions? sealing to the damper/air spring shafts?
high flow piston inside the damper? unfortunately being in the UK and Manitou being pretty uncommon round here, makes it quite tricky to get hold of spares without importing, i guess hte high flow piston is a mod rather than a Manitou upgrade?

honestly, in reflection.. i may as well have been riding a rigid fork it was so bad in comparison, i just hadnt noticed over time


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Alan1977 said:


> i think.. i may have used engine oil previously.
> hmm, i had researched and decided 7.5wt oil was appropriate? this isn't the case? im guessing i can do a partial drain and refill and that will be fine?
> maybe that was the emulsion i saw then?
> interesting, by lower seals, do you mean the seals that go in the guides that screw into the stanchions? sealing to the damper/air spring shafts?
> ...


Just change the oil on your next service when it gets sticky. It won't hurt anything but thicker oil tends to slide better. There is a huge range in how slippery motor oils are. Stock is a Motorex 5W40 Powersynt 4T.

The highflow piston was my product, Manitou have since adopted the same design for the new Mezzer: Manitou High Flow Pistons | Shockcraft


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Swapped my Mattoc Pro 29 x 140mm to a Canfield Tilt, paired with a Mara Pro 210 x 55. 

The HTA is a little steeper on the Tilt and the rear suspension works a bit differently, so it took a few rides to tune.

I'm running Main 75 psi and IRT 100 psi, LSC and HSC open, 3/5 clicks bottom out, R 6/10.

I'm getting full travel, could be more plush, since I'm running the damping fully open I suspect I could drop the main and add in some LSC.

Just need a few more rides to get it perfect.

Prior to building up the Tilt I'd contemplated a Mezzer at 150-160mm, but truthfully the 100-150 gm weight penalty would only be worth it if I needed more travel; I like the geo as it sits. 

The Mattoc is plenty stiff for hard riding.

Still waiting on a 27.5 Boost 160mm fork from Starr Bikes, going on my Shred Dogg


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Swapped my Mattoc Pro 29 x 140mm to a Canfield Tilt, paired with a Mara Pro 210 x 55.
> 
> The HTA is a little steeper on the Tilt and the rear suspension works a bit differently, so it took a few rides to tune.
> 
> ...


For the damper, highflow piston, close LSC, open HSC and remove the second compression shim the plus forks have if you have too much damping.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> Swapped my Mattoc Pro 29 x 140mm to a Canfield Tilt, paired with a Mara Pro 210 x 55.
> 
> The HTA is a little steeper on the Tilt and the rear suspension works a bit differently, so it took a few rides to tune.
> 
> ...


So, what happened with the Helm?


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## Robust2 (Jun 12, 2019)

So as I mentioned a while ago I have a comp model that has one of the loose bushings, i've been contemplating what to do with it. However, someone just posted an ad for a Pro which has pretty damaged/worn through stanchions for a low price. Would it be possible to use these (hopefully good) lowers on my own fork? What about the dampers, anything I could salvage?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Curveball said:


> So, what happened with the Helm?


It's heavy, didn't like the feel, no better than an air fork, and damping nowhere near as good as a Manitou.

When I started looking at maintenance, the inability to do the work myself was the final straw. I contact CC about damper service and they said it was a shop task needing a vacuum machine?

CC really needs to get with the grogram, even an LBS should be able to maintain a suspension.

My fav fork is the Motion Ride E13+, but I'm just not sure I want to invest 1k on a fork that could be obsolete if the company folks (like Trust).

The Mattoc works well, but it takes some time to get it right.

Dougal question: Mattoc Pro 3 29 x 140mm (not a 29 plus fork), running 65main/100 IRT, LSC 2/4, HSC 0/4, R 6/10

Are you saying that I should close LSC, leave HSC open, and adjust pressure until it feels right? If the IRT is for mid stroke support, is it crazy to run a really low main with a ~40psi difference?

I'm 88kg plus kit


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Dougal question: Mattoc Pro 3 29 x 140mm (not a 29 plus fork), running 65main/100 IRT, LSC 2/4, HSC 0/4, R 6/10
> 
> Are you saying that I should close LSC, leave HSC open, and adjust pressure until it feels right? If the IRT is for mid stroke support, is it crazy to run a really low main with a ~40psi difference?
> 
> I'm 88kg plus kit


You need the high-flow piston to be able to run with LSC closed. Otherwise it starts to feel like a Fox GRIP where your support brings harshness. The highflow piston takes out the damping features that cause the harshness but leaving you with LSC that gives the support you need.
Maintenance wise too the high flow piston stops the damper sucking in air from the lower seal which foams up the oil. So your damper maintenance intervals extend.

Manitou copied my high flow piston for the Mezzer. But I'm okay with that.

I ran the 27" Pro and the chamber volumes are a little different to the 29" version. I was running 40/60psi for general riding and 40/80psi for aggressive riding. If you want softer start and more progressive I have run 30/90psi too. I am almost 20% lighter than you but ride with a camelbak.

Bset tuning scheme is to set air pressures with damping adjusters all open. Because this lets you feel how hard the spring is pushing you back up. Then set damping and fine-tune air pressure on the trails.
I would suggest starting with 45/90psi and tweaking from there. Bigger air pressure split makes the fork more progressive. Smaller split makes it more linear and makes the second stage kick in sooner.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Just picked up a mattoc comp (27+/29 boost) from Jenson USA as my first swing at suspension besides my arms and legs. The plan is to ride it at 100mm on my current bike (actually a fat bike, so I'm going to rock a "skinny" 29er with a fat rear tire) until I build up a 29er; looking at going to 140mm (ragley big al).

My question: I bought it under the impression that the different travel models (for 27+/29) were the same fork, just different travel spacers from the factory, based on the service and travel adjust guides. Glancing at Manitou's site for the fork, the page is conflicted, but one portion suggests that the 100mm fork can only adjust down to 80, and not up to 140. Is the page right, or the service manual?


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## upsha (Jun 1, 2017)

fotooutdoors said:


> Just picked up a mattoc comp (27+/29 boost) from Jenson USA as my first swing at suspension besides my arms and legs. The plan is to ride it at 100mm on my current bike (actually a fat bike, so I'm going to rock a "skinny" 29er with a fat rear tire) until I build up a 29er; looking at going to 140mm (ragley big al).
> 
> My question: I bought it under the impression that the different travel models (for 27+/29) were the same fork, just different travel spacers from the factory, based on the service and travel adjust guides. Glancing at Manitou's site for the fork, the page is conflicted, but one portion suggests that the 100mm fork can only adjust down to 80, and not up to 140. Is the page right, or the service manual?


I think the internal length has two versions, one up to 100mm (typically marked as 100mm) and the other up to 140mm (typically marked as 120mm). You can adjust the 120mm one down to 80mm for sure. I would suggest return the 100mm Mattoc. If you need a short travel XC fork, order R7 instead.

If you intend to use it at 140mm, you may consider Mezzer instead. The stiffness and high flow piston are very good features to have.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fotooutdoors said:


> Just picked up a mattoc comp (27+/29 boost) from Jenson USA as my first swing at suspension besides my arms and legs. The plan is to ride it at 100mm on my current bike (actually a fat bike, so I'm going to rock a "skinny" 29er with a fat rear tire) until I build up a 29er; looking at going to 140mm (ragley big al).
> 
> My question: I bought it under the impression that the different travel models (for 27+/29) were the same fork, just different travel spacers from the factory, based on the service and travel adjust guides. Glancing at Manitou's site for the fork, the page is conflicted, but one portion suggests that the 100mm fork can only adjust down to 80, and not up to 140. Is the page right, or the service manual?


Shorter stanchions in some forks. These limit the travel.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Well shoot. Thanks for confirming upsha and Dougal. Now to find a comp or good deal for a pro in 120mm... First world problems


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I have one I ordered from Hayes on Black Friday last year. 29 100mm. Opened it up a month ago or so to see if I could bump to 120. There were 4 spacers in it so I would assume it goes to 140. Running it at 120 now.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

AKamp said:


> I have one I ordered from Hayes on Black Friday last year. 29 100mm. Opened it up a month ago or so to see if I could bump to 120. There were 4 spacers in it so I would assume it goes to 140. Running it at 120 now.


It sounds like it may be a bit of a crap shoot. I exchanged a couple emails with Hayes text support, and they indicated that I was limited to 100 on my fork. Idk if it varies between production dates (the fork I purchased was nos 2017), or what, since I have read several people that successfully ran a 100 at longer travel. At any rate, I sent it back to Jenson, and am debating waiting for the 120 comp to come into stock vs purchasing a pro from Europe. Thanks for the feedback.


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## aan (Jul 30, 2011)

was the mattoc comp/pro updated recently, or just the graphics? I have been trying to find a 120mm, 44mm offset for a bit and I am seeing a lot of different designs, some have the older style look and some have "manitou" written down the legs now - also some websites list the offset as 48mm like on worldwidecyclery, universalcycles...but on Hayes website still says 44 or 51mm offsets only?


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## ErrAzIb (Jan 16, 2004)

I have a 2016 27.5+ Magnum comp set at 140mm. The air sping is ISOair. Is it possible to upgrade it to Dorado air+ IVA and get the same travel?


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

My shock pump doesn't fit anymore. It still works on other forks. The thread doesn't seem to be cross threaded. Any advise? Can I replace this part? Thanks.


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## Organ (Jan 30, 2004)

I’d try repairing the thread first. A schrader repair tool (like a Milton s-445) is a few bucks and probably all you need.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

thova said:


> View attachment 1941308
> 
> My shock pump doesn't fit anymore. It still works on other forks. The thread doesn't seem to be cross threaded. Any advise? Can I replace this part? Thanks.








Shaft Foot Air Shaft Dorado Air (Manitou) | Shockcraft


Shaft foot for Air Shaft in forks with Dorado Air system Black aluminium 17 mm OD, 35 mm tall M8 x 1.0 upper thread with slotted side M12 x 1.5 lower thread with 8 mm external hex & schrader thread Manitou Part Code: 121-27478




www.shockcraft.co.nz





Also replace the hose and chuck on your pump if it's doing that. Cane Creek make a nice one that fits most pumps: Shock Pump Hose (Cane Creek) | Shockcraft


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

OK, so repairing the thread did not work. We measured 0.5mm difrence in thiknes between 2 mattoc forks. The thread is to far gone. Is there a way to order a replacement part? Partnumber? 
Thanks


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

thova said:


> OK, so repairing the thread did not work. We measured 0.5mm difrence in thiknes between 2 mattoc forks. The thread is to far gone. Is there a way to order a replacement part? Partnumber?
> Thanks


Dougal gave you the part number and a place to order it already






Shaft Foot Air Shaft Dorado Air (Manitou) | Shockcraft


Shaft foot for Air Shaft in forks with Dorado Air system Black aluminium 17 mm OD, 35 mm tall M8 x 1.0 upper thread with slotted side M12 x 1.5 lower thread with 8 mm external hex & schrader thread Manitou Part Code: 121-27478




www.shockcraft.co.nz


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Yes, sorry about that. 

So, any reason why my shockpump might be part of the problem?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

thova said:


> Yes, sorry about that.
> 
> So, any reason why my shockpump might be part of the problem?


It may have damaged threads?


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

Any thoughts about lower lube oil?

I've always felt the bushes on my mattoc were a bit on the tight side. I've previously tried supergliss 100k and found a significant increase in static friction. Rockshox 0w-30 seems to work ok. I've tried a 46k slideway oil to see if that would help but it also increases breakaway force. Also there was a noticeable change over an evening ride as the ambient temp dropped 5 degrees / sun went down.

I live in the north of the UK and very rarely in temperatures over 25 degrees (I wish!). I usually ride in the evenings all year down to -5 during winter, but often only 15 degrees even in the summer.

I was thinking of giving 0w-20 engine oil a go to see if that is an improvement over Rockshox 0w-30. Would supergliss 32k be an improvement? Although I'm concerned it might thicken too much for winter use.

Any thoughts?

Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

neb said:


> Any thoughts about lower lube oil?
> 
> I've always felt the bushes on my mattoc were a bit on the tight side. I've previously tried supergliss 100k and found a significant increase in static friction. Rockshox 0w-30 seems to work ok. I've tried a 46k slideway oil to see if that would help but it also increases breakaway force. Also there was a noticeable change over an evening ride as the ambient temp dropped 5 degrees / sun went down.
> 
> ...


If you've got stiction then you've got tight bushings or tight seals. Either way that needs fixed and lube oil can't cure it.


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## jason3559 (Mar 10, 2004)

Questions for the Mattoc/Manitou experts. I have a 29” 120mm Mattoc Pro. I’ve filled the damper with 5wt oil to 77mm from the top, and then removed 5 mL. This allows for nearly the full 120 mm of travel. 

However, at full travel, the o-ring travel indicator on the slider is 1-1.5” away from what I’d guess full travel would show.

Is this normal/expected? A-C length is the same as a 120 mm SID (a little over 19”).


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jason3559 said:


> Questions for the Mattoc/Manitou experts. I have a 29" 120mm Mattoc Pro. I've filled the damper with 5wt oil to 77mm from the top, and then removed 5 mL. This allows for nearly the full 120 mm of travel.
> 
> However, at full travel, the o-ring travel indicator on the slider is 1-1.5" away from what I'd guess full travel would show.
> 
> Is this normal/expected? A-C length is the same as a 120 mm SID (a little over 19").


Yes. I use a ruler and piece of plastic tape to mark full travel.


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## jason3559 (Mar 10, 2004)

Cary said:


> Yes. I use a ruler and piece of plastic tape to mark full travel.
> 
> View attachment 1942492


Great info. Thanks for that.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

@edIT yesterday during testing I got it to lose 20mm of travel in 5 minutes pushing hard on flat ground, just now I repeated the same thing 20 times and didn't get any perceivable amount of suck down, matter requires further investigation, might be poppet valve related.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So it turns out I found the issue, after a day at park no suck down happened, my poppet was sticking a bit after oring replacement and I was forcibly pulling it down, turns out if I just let it do its thing, it holds pressure much better 🙃
But I have a setup question, what can I do about braking bumps? (apart from faster rebound, already found it helps a lot) is it better to run more sag with a progressive end, or a bit less sag with more linear travel? Talking 40 vs 30mm sag for 150 travel, end stroke tuned for necessary support.
Progressive setup is 50 main 120 IRT, linear 60 main 110 IRT. Have it setup "linear" today after "progressive" yesterday, but maybe someone will chime in fast enough to tell me it's a bad idea or smth 😁


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> So it turns out I found the issue, after a day at park no suck down happened, my poppet was sticking a bit after oring replacement and I was forcibly pulling it down, turns out if I just let it do its thing, it holds pressure much better 🙃
> But I have a setup question, what can I do about braking bumps? (apart from faster rebound, already found it helps a lot) is it better to run more sag with a progressive end, or a bit less sag with more linear travel? Talking 40 vs 30mm sag for 150 travel, end stroke tuned for necessary support.
> Progressive setup is 50 main 120 IRT, linear 60 main 110 IRT. Have it setup "linear" today after "progressive" yesterday, but maybe someone will chime in fast enough to tell me it's a bad idea or smth 😁


You are set very progressive and are probably right in the steep part of the spring curve. Start with about 1.5x in the IRT compared to the regular. Less rebound makes a difference and can cause packing down if you have to much. Try a couple clicks less and see how it feels. If you start losing traction, add back in.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I wouldn't call it very progressive, according to the IRT graph for the Mattoc, it seems that IRT 2x main would be just more progressive than linear, anyway, I need this sort of balance for the necessary support while keeping small bump sensitivity.
As for rider feedback, I have mixed feelings, on one hand higher main didn't seem to do anything for braking bumps, didn't make them worse or better, however, the fork handles steep terrain and large holes quite a bit better, so this setup is here to stay, with one change- a bit lower IRT, since I didn't quite use full travel, and I feel like I should have on the trails I rode, no large hucks, but I have the HBO for that.
As for rebound, I slowed it down a lot recently, felt it gives much better traction, but found it packing down on rougher trails, one click less was enough to fix that, but I removed one more for the braking bumps, same for the rear shock, apparently gonna have to make special adjustments for the park, but a few clicks is no biggie.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> I wouldn't call it very progressive, according to the IRT graph for the Mattoc, it seems that IRT 2x main would be just more progressive than linear, anyway, I need this sort of balance for the necessary support while keeping small bump sensitivity.
> As for rider feedback, I have mixed feelings, on one hand higher main didn't seem to do anything for braking bumps, didn't make them worse or better, however, the fork handles steep terrain and large holes quite a bit better, so this setup is here to stay, with one change- a bit lower IRT, since I didn't quite use full travel, and I feel like I should have on the trails I rode, no large hucks, but I have the HBO for that.
> As for rebound, I slowed it down a lot recently, felt it gives much better traction, but found it packing down on rougher trails, one click less was enough to fix that, but I removed one more for the braking bumps, same for the rear shock, apparently gonna have to make special adjustments for the park, but a few clicks is no biggie.


FYI, for the Mattoc, Manitou recommends starting the the IRT at 40 psi above main. Glad you are getting closer.


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## jason3559 (Mar 10, 2004)

Cary said:


> FYI, for the Mattoc, Manitou recommends starting the the IRT at 40 psi above main. Glad you are getting closer.


Everyone seems to run a lot more IRT. For me to achieve full travel (off a 3-4ft drop), I've set Main to 86 and IRT to 105. Anything more and it's so progressive that there no hope of full travel. These pressure are way way lower than what Manitou recommends for my weight and fork travel.

What am I missing?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jason3559 said:


> Everyone seems to run a lot more IRT. For me to achieve full travel (off a 3-4ft drop), I've set Main to 86 and IRT to 105. Anything more and it's so progressive that there no hope of full travel. These pressure are way way lower than what Manitou recommends for my weight and fork travel.
> 
> What am I missing?


More information would help. Your weight, travel, compression and rebound settings?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I found Manitou's Mattoc IRT settings didn't work. So I came up with my own scheme.

Simply a 1.5x ratio for the most linear and supportive, 2x ratio for aggressive riding (more bottom out protection) and 3x ratio if you want the most supple and progressive setup.

I am ~73kg and run 40/60psi for normal riding, 40/80psi for bike-park and have run 30/90 as well.
40/80 keeps the fork higher if you're riding technical stuff than 30/90.

40/80psi gives the fork a quite linear 40lb/in static spring-rate. But on air springs the rate increases with compression speed.

Basic starting guideline. Your weight (kg) as psi in the top valve and half that in the bottom.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Sounds weird, without IRT (as in same pressure as main) I had to run A LOT of pressure to get any support and avoid too easy use of full travel, maybe you're running too much main pressure? Check for SAG, maybe your pump is not very accurate with the recommended settings.
That or your fork sits lower than it should, try equalising the chambers but connecting a pump and cycling the fork to bottom a few times (see if you can get full travel) and extend fully before removing the pump.
I ended up with 60/100 main/IRT pressure, might try higher IRT if I have a chance to do some higher hucks to flat, for now it feels perfect, the previous setup (50/120) did did feel more supple over small bumps for sure, I'm an aggressive rider though, so have to compromise, this feels much better in the rough, have more dynamic travel that way.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Sounds weird, without IRT (as in same pressure as main) I had to run A LOT of pressure to get any support and avoid too easy use of full travel, maybe you're running too much main pressure? Check for SAG, maybe your pump is not very accurate with the recommended settings.
> That or your fork sits lower than it should, try equalising the chambers but connecting a pump and cycling the fork to bottom a few times (see if you can get full travel) and extend fully before removing the pump.
> I ended up with 60/100 main/IRT pressure, might try higher IRT if I have a chance to do some higher hucks to flat, for now it feels perfect, the previous setup (50/120) did did feel more supple over small bumps for sure, I'm an aggressive rider though, so have to compromise, this feels much better in the rough, have more dynamic travel that way.


How heavy are you?

There is also variation in the stock mattoc tunes. Some run 0.1mm shims against the piston, some run 0.15mm.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I weigh @55kg geared up, or around 120lbs, am pretty aggressive with my 65 head angle trail bike, travel set @150mm. 50psi main gives 25, 60psi 20% sag. Oil changed to 13csy, helped smooth out square hits a bit, I felt them a little before, no I don't feel anything, might have been just a fresh service thing though, Mattoc Pro 2014 updated with IRT and low friction seals.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I weigh @55kg geared up, or around 120lbs, am pretty aggressive with my 65 head angle trail bike, travel set @150mm. 50psi main gives 25, 60psi 20% sag. Oil changed to 13csy, helped smooth out square hits a bit, I felt them a little before, no I don't feel anything, might have been just a fresh service thing though, Mattoc Pro 2014 updated with IRT and low friction seals.


You're over sprung and I'd say underdamped which is driving that. Changing the shims against the piston from 0.1 to 0.15's and running LSC closed will get your damping in range.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I don't want to run any less pressure, it's not the case of damping, but instead spring support, damping won't give me enough support in g-outs and after drops with holes, I feel the bottom in those situations anyway, if I run less pressure, I'm able to bottom out the fork by just pushing at it, which is obviously not ideal. Didn't you confuse the Mattoc thread with Mezzer by chance? 
btw. I'm running no clicks of low or high speed compression, didn't really see a need for it, didn't really test either, only close the high speed when doing jumps, there is a bit of damping with the dials open anyway, otherwise I wouldn't feel a diff on square hits after changing to a thinner oil, found 2-3 clicks of HBO give best results.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> I don't want to run any less pressure, it's not the case of damping, but instead spring support, damping won't give me enough support in g-outs and after drops with holes, I feel the bottom in those situations anyway, if I run less pressure, I'm able to bottom out the fork by just pushing at it, which is obviously not ideal. Didn't you confuse the Mattoc thread with Mezzer by chance?
> btw. I'm running no clicks of low or high speed compression, didn't really see a need for it, didn't really test either, only close the high speed when doing jumps, there is a bit of damping with the dials open anyway, otherwise I wouldn't feel a diff on square hits after changing to a thinner oil, found 2-3 clicks of HBO give best results.


You might consider paying attention to what Dougal is saying. You asked for help and have the guy who is the distributor for them in New Zealand and has probably serviced, tuned and modified more Mattocs than anyone in the world, giving you suggestions. Pehaps put aside what you think you know and has not been working and try something different from someone with a lot of experience and knowledge.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Mayby Dougal mistook me for the guy before? My setup feels pretty much spot on, aspecially considering potential pressure differences between pumps. Today I rode some amazing, Squamish style rock features, and cannot imagine the fork working any better


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## jason3559 (Mar 10, 2004)

Cary said:


> More information would help. Your weight, travel, compression and rebound settings?


205lb ready to ride
29" Mattoc Pro 120 mm
Main 86, IRT 105
IPA 3, LSC Open to Mid (climbing), HBO 4, Reb 4 (all increments away from closed)
Even when only getting 90 to 100 mm, the fork feels solid and capable. It was only after dedicating a full day to setting up sag, then rebound, and then bracketing for the IPA/LSC did I get these setting. Ended the ride with the drop and got right at 120 mm. 
Thanks in advance


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> Mayby Dougal mistook me for the guy before? My setup feels pretty much spot on, aspecially considering potential pressure differences between pumps. Today I rode some amazing, Squamish style rock features, and cannot imagine the fork working any better


He quoted you directly and responded to the information you provided.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jason3559 said:


> 205lb ready to ride
> 29" Mattoc Pro 120 mm
> Main 86, IRT 105
> IPA 3, LSC Open to Mid (climbing), HBO 4, Reb 4 (all increments away from closed)
> ...


Good news is I am the same weight at the same travel and had similar issues. The problem is the IRT is designed around 160-170mm travel and at 120mm travel becomes all but useless. I found a solution: Manitou Magnum (or short travel Mattoc) IRT Mod

The settings I ended up with are:

80/118 PSI (on my hardtail, so no big drops or jumps), so you could end up with a higher IRT to pressure to control the bottoming. 
HS Compression- 1-2 in from open (I assume this is what you call the IPA)
LSC- Open to closed depending on if a long climb on a fireroad. 
LSR- 4 out from closed. 
HBO- full open.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I don't want to run any less pressure, it's not the case of damping, but instead spring support, damping won't give me enough support in g-outs and after drops with holes, I feel the bottom in those situations anyway, if I run less pressure, I'm able to bottom out the fork by just pushing at it, which is obviously not ideal. Didn't you confuse the Mattoc thread with Mezzer by chance?
> btw. I'm running no clicks of low or high speed compression, didn't really see a need for it, didn't really test either, only close the high speed when doing jumps, there is a bit of damping with the dials open anyway, otherwise I wouldn't feel a diff on square hits after changing to a thinner oil, found 2-3 clicks of HBO give best results.


You're running a soft damper all the way open and have to run a lot of spring pressure huh? Just like a Lyrik or 2021 Fox owner.

Your entire problem is not enough compression damping.



piciu256 said:


> Mayby Dougal mistook me for the guy before? My setup feels pretty much spot on, aspecially considering potential pressure differences between pumps. Today I rode some amazing, Squamish style rock features, and cannot imagine the fork working any better


You only know the best you've ridden and you're at about 60% of what that fork can do.


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

How much longer we will wait for all new Mattoc? Any rumors around?


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## jason3559 (Mar 10, 2004)

Cary said:


> Good news is I am the same weight at the same travel and had similar issues. The problem is the IRT is designed around 160-170mm travel and at 120mm travel becomes all but useless. I found a solution: Manitou Magnum (or short travel Mattoc) IRT Mod
> 
> The settings I ended up with are:
> 
> ...


That's an interesting realization and modification added bushing. What McMaster part number(s) did you use? It's interesting how close we are to settings, but I don't have the mod. 
Thanks for the input and suggestions.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jason3559 said:


> That's an interesting realization and modification added bushing. What McMaster part number(s) did you use? It's interesting how close we are to settings, but I don't have the mod.
> Thanks for the input and suggestions.


Pn are in the third paragraph of the linked thread. I would expect you may end up with a bit higher pressures. I have my bars a bit higher than many and don't hit big jumps (well never hit big jumps) or drops on this bike.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Great idea about shortening the IRT, I thought about it, but @140 it worked well enough (much better than IVA anyway) so I didn't mess with it, at 150 I believe it works as it should.


Dougal said:


> You're running a soft damper all the way open and have to run a lot of spring pressure huh? Just like a Lyrik or 2021 Fox owner.
> 
> Your entire problem is not enough compression damping.
> 
> You only know the best you've ridden and you're at about 60% of what that fork can do.


I know you probably know much better than me, I do realize that my setup is probably less than ideal, however, I'd say more like 80% there (maybe 60% sometimes, considering that I don't bother changing pressure for different trails)
For "mellower" but faster trails, lower pressure certainly could be better, but I would not want to go lower than 40 for sure, it gives me around 30% sag and definitely doesn't feel as good, I prefer my fork to sit higher, for rocky, technical trails, I definitely prefer how the stiffer, but linear setup feels over the softer, more progressive one, yesterday I done a 10m rock slab for the first time in my life, and definitely appreciated the added support  
If you insist, I'll try different compression settings today, together with lower main pressure, not sure it'll be productive though, as I'm quite tired after yesterday's riding, and the trails for today are quite blown out already. 
Not sure what to look for though, should I just add clickers till it feels harsh and back off? From watching Steve from Volsprung, it seems that for chattery bumps, using the spring, instead of the damper for chattery bumps, is much better.
Anyway, the current 60/100 setup is supple enough even when seated, so I don't see what the drama is about


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I believe the real issue with my setup, is that I want to ride this thing like an Enduro bike, which it isn't, having 130mm travel in the back 
@edIT Because of unforseen problems (mainly leaving my riding shoes at the last spot 🤣 ) I didn't get to ride today, don't know when again will I have an opportunity to test properly, at my local trails there is no place to test suspension properly, no chattery stuff, no rocks, and in general, not enough gnar  But testing around in the parking lot, 50/100 feels ok, as it did when I ran it half a year ago, I just kept adding IRT pressure to see how it went, till it was too stiff and backed off, didn't see any negative effects really. Less main pressure is def a no go, 40 is too soft for me, I prefer a stiffer setup.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Less main pressure is def a no go, 40 is too soft for me, I prefer a stiffer setup.


Of course it feels too soft. You haven't got enough compression damping.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I don't like how 30% sag feels up front and you won't change my mind, with IRT there is enough support and I'm not looking for more suppleness anyway, from comparing to other pumps, mine seems to overrated the pressure by about 10psi, that's from going off the scale one time accidentally 😜
I'll stick with the 50/100 balance and test different compression settings, most probably bracketing, to get an idea how it feels, I rode this setup for quite a while with good results, but didn't see any negatives from adding more IRT pressure as I became more aggressive.
btw. some background, when I ran 140mm travel, I went to 60psi at one point before (but my pump wasn't knackered then yet, so real 60) before I had IRT, the fork lacked bottom out resistance in my mind (just using more travel than I'd like in certain situations), IVA fixed that partially, but it still didn't feel right (running all 4 tokens), when I installed the IRT kit, I immediately felt a difference, @40 main 80 IRT there was more mid stroke support than I got with full IVA and 60psi at once, mostly felt this when (trying to at that point) railing turns, obviously it was more comfortable at the same time.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I don't like how 30% sag feels up front and you won't change my mind, with IRT there is enough support and I'm not looking for more suppleness anyway, from comparing to other pumps, mine seems to overrated the pressure by about 10psi, that's from going off the scale one time accidentally 😜
> I'll stick with the 50/100 balance and test different compression settings, most probably bracketing, to get an idea how it feels, I rode this setup for quite a while with good results, but didn't see any negatives from adding more IRT pressure as I became more aggressive.
> btw. some background, when I ran 140mm travel, I went to 60psi at one point before (but my pump wasn't knackered then yet, so real 60) before I had IRT, the fork lacked bottom out resistance in my mind (just using more travel than I'd like in certain situations), IVA fixed that partially, but it still didn't feel right (running all 4 tokens), when I installed the IRT kit, I immediately felt a difference, @40 main 80 IRT there was more mid stroke support than I got with full IVA and 60psi at once, mostly felt this when (trying to at that point) railing turns, obviously it was more comfortable at the same time.


How much travel are you running? It's very unlikely You have 30% sag unless you've got a really short and steep bike and you're measuring in a really forward position. I am heavier than you, run less pressure and sag was around 16% seated at 160mm.

Without running proper compression damping your fork has to dive into travel to generate support. When you run the right amount of compression you have support against movement from the top of the stroke.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I do measure SAG in a pretty forward position, that's what I fund repeatable, It's hard enough to check front sag really, and I don't believe static SAG matters much anyway (all the suspension gurus say it's just a starting point really), also don't forget that with lower travel I have more negative volume (don't remember if I have a piece of pipe there, in place of a spacer, for a bit more atm)
I have short legs in relation to my torso, so that might contribute a little, and last time I checked SAG was not on even ground, here at home, on a level surface, it comes out @33mm (22%) @50psi main, seated I get 20mm, so 60 psi was more like around 15% probably, still felt ok, @40psi main I get 43mm (28%) or 30mm seated (not very reliable imo.)
Will try utilizing my damper a bit more, but I'm not so sure about doing it instead of the spring, not in conjunction, from my understanding of physics and Steve's teachings, I understand that damping does give resistance to compression, but unlike a spring the damper dissipates that energy, instead of storing in, and there are certain situations that I want the fork to recover as quickly as possible, without losing much stability (eg. landing in a compression with holes at the bottom, I have to use full travel here, as it's a harsh, pretty high drop, and I do, found that with higher IRT the "no travel" sensation lasts a little shorter)
What I also understood from Steve's teachings (and experienced when running a slight platform) is that I don't want to run too much low speed damping, as there are many bumps of high frequency, that fall in that range, and cause harshness, same goes for high speed really, just that I only tested fully closed at this point, and understand that it feels quite good in rocky terrain, or on stairs, but beats me up quite badly on larger chatter.
I'll appreciate different settings for different terrain forum sure, when and if I find it works better, aspecially if they only involve turning dials, as I don't want to be bothered to change pressure for each location I visit, aspecially when they often have totally different style trail around (say slow, rocky technical, and fast over chattery roots)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I do measure SAG in a pretty forward position, that's what I fund repeatable, It's hard enough to check front sag really, and I don't believe static SAG matters much anyway (all the suspension gurus say it's just a starting point really), also don't forget that with lower travel I have more negative volume (don't remember if I have a piece of pipe there, in place of a spacer, for a bit more atm)
> I have short legs in relation to my torso, so that might contribute a little, and last time I checked SAG was not on even ground, here at home, on a level surface, it comes out @33mm (22%) @50psi main, seated I get 20mm, so 60 psi was more like around 15% probably, still felt ok, @40psi main I get 43mm (28%) or 30mm seated (not very reliable imo.)
> Will try utilizing my damper a bit more, but I'm not so sure about doing it instead of the spring, not in conjunction, from my understanding of physics and Steve's teachings, I understand that damping does give resistance to compression, but unlike a spring the damper dissipates that energy, instead of storing in, and there are certain situations that I want the fork to recover as quickly as possible, without losing much stability (eg. landing in a compression with holes at the bottom, I have to use full travel here, as it's a harsh, pretty high drop, and I do, found that with higher IRT the "no travel" sensation lasts a little shorter)
> What I also understood from Steve's teachings (and experienced when running a slight platform) is that I don't want to run too much low speed damping, as there are many bumps of high frequency, that fall in that range, and cause harshness, same goes for high speed really, just that I only tested fully closed at this point, and understand that it feels quite good in rocky terrain, or on stairs, but beats me up quite badly on larger chatter.
> I'll appreciate different settings for different terrain forum sure, when and if I find it works better, aspecially if they only involve turning dials, as I don't want to be bothered to change pressure for each location I visit, aspecially when they often have totally different style trail around (say slow, rocky technical, and fast over chattery roots)


The way you are measuring sag doesn't work and the numbers are bogus. Forget totally about sag.

Do what I'm telling you and it will work for all your terrain. Less novel writing.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Let's ignore sag for the moment, there is some and that's all that matters to me 😜
Let's assume I go lower with main pressure, my fork sits lower (which I don't like but let's assume I just have to get used to it) and I use damping instead to keep me up, it will work for sure (assuming no harshness) to keep it higher on repeated hits and short compressions (say turns) but what about end stroke? I don't remember if it was you, Mullen or somebody else, who advised to find the IRT/ main balance by pushing down when braking, see if full travel is used but no bottom out (in Mezzer thread), anyway, if I lower main pressure, I'll have to increase IRT again, to regain said balance, which I'm not so keen on doing after experiencing a more linear setup (was less tiring and more predictable, than the softer, progressive one)
Sorry to bother you so much, but it's raining like hell, and will be for the next week or so it appears, so I'm not able to do any real testing arm, and want to get a good starting point, to waste as little time as possible.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Let's ignore sag for the moment, there is some and that's all that matters to me 😜
> Let's assume I go lower with main pressure, my fork sits lower (which I don't like but let's assume I just have to get used to it) and I use damping instead to keep me up, it will work for sure (assuming no harshness) to keep it higher on repeated hits and short compressions (say turns) but what about end stroke? I don't remember if it was you, Mullen or somebody else, who advised to find the IRT/ main balance by pushing down when braking, see if full travel is used but no bottom out (in Mezzer thread), anyway, if I lower main pressure, I'll have to increase IRT again, to regain said balance, which I'm not so keen on doing after experiencing a more linear setup (was less tiring and more predictable, than the softer, progressive one)
> Sorry to bother you so much, but it's raining like hell, and will be for the next week or so it appears, so I'm not able to do any real testing arm, and want to get a good starting point, to waste as little time as possible.


That wasn't me about braking. But you won't reach bottom-out braking. 40/80psi on a Mattoc gives you ~40lb/in. With 6" travel that's 240lb on the fork static to reach full travel.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, I'm definitely able to push all the way to the bottom with 40/80 even without applying the brake I'm able to push through 140mm, when I do use the brake, I definitely feel the bottom bumper (and the ruler shows 148mm), and that's all in the confines of my room, no high speed, no leaving the ground, with 50/100 (again, using my slightly offset pressure gauge) I'm just about able to use full travel in this "test" and it should feel quite good on the trail, if I close the damping a bit, I ran 50/110 for the longest time, just recently bumped IRT to 120 and for one weekend tried 60/100.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

Good discussion, I did an uplift day last weekend, steep natural trails. I changed my setup following reading some of the discussion here. I weigh 180lbs (fork at 160mm) and went from 50/80 psi to 45/120 psi. I found it a good match for the riding. Less main pressure helped suppleness over roots, increased irt support on the steeps. I noticed increased pop as well which was a bonus.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I believe it's time for a full service finally  , around 70 hours on the bike, almost 30km vertical, most importantly- when I took the lower legs off, there was no oil on the damper side (I put around 10cc in there) and I'm not able to compress the damper by hand all the way, not quite hydrolock yet, but pretty damn close...
Anyone thought maybe of a way to add a pressure relief valve at the bottom or something? there might be enough space in the Pro version, not sure about threads. I'm thinking of using damper oil for lubrication on this side, it feels like a bit of a waste to dump the oil just because of a little lower leg contamination, Imo fork damper oil is pretty much eternal, it doesn't see as hard work as the rear shock does, never seen so much as warm to touch in my case.
My spring balance might be a little thrown off because of that.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> I believe it's time for a full service finally  , around 70 hours on the bike, almost 30km vertical, most importantly- when I took the lower legs off, there was no oil on the damper side (I put around 10cc in there) and I'm not able to compress the damper by hand all the way, not quite hydrolock yet, but pretty damn close...
> Anyone thought maybe of a way to add a pressure relief valve at the bottom or something? there might be enough space in the Pro version, not sure about threads. I'm thinking of using damper oil for lubrication on this side, it feels like a bit of a waste to dump the oil just because of a little lower leg contamination, Imo fork damper oil is pretty much eternal, it doesn't see as hard work as the rear shock does, never seen so much as warm to touch in my case.
> My spring balance might be a little thrown off because of that.


A pressure relief in the damper?
The issue is it foams up. It foams up because of three reasons:
1. The lower seal is a lip-seal which can let air in if pressure below the rebound goes negative.
2. The stock mid-valve is restrictive enough to pull it negative if you run without enough compression damping.
3. You're running with no compression damping.

I ran my Mattoc with the lip seal changed to a 10x3 o-ring (better sealing against vacuum), high flow piston (less pressure change across the mid-valve piston) and I ran with LSC closed.
I could do a whole season without the damper oil foaming or increasing in volume.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

That makes sense, if there was positive pressure in there all the time, the oil injestion would be greatly limited if not completely eliminated, even without changing the lip seal to an o-ring, don't want to try that just yet, as it's a one way road if I remember correctly (have to remove the plastic spacer)


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So, did a couple of runs today (finally a pause in rain), started with 2 clicks low speed, 2 clicks high speed, good support for big hits (small drops big drops) but right at the edge of pain threshold on high speed roots, backed off 1 click high speed, feels much better, nowhere near the support I got in turns with 60psi, but I don't really need as much (just gotta get used to a softer fork again) 
Have to try HS open LS closed, as so many seem to be running 🤔 might just be the ticket, offset the HS range a bit, but maybe without harshness? will see.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> So, did a couple of runs today (finally a pause in rain), started with 2 clicks low speed, 2 clicks high speed, good support for big hits (small drops big drops) but right at the edge of pain threshold on high speed roots, backed off 1 click high speed, feels much better, nowhere near the support I got in turns with 60psi, but I don't really need as much (just gotta get used to a softer fork again)
> Have to try HS open LS closed, as so many seem to be running 🤔 might just be the ticket, offset the HS range a bit, but maybe without harshness? will see.


The LSC port on those is large and doesn't do much until it's fully closed.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

After unscrewing the damper top cup I found out that there was just air pressure accumulated there, no oil excess, so that's good  also, the high speed shim is definitely .15mm, so as far as support we're good here, don't see much difference in end stroke without said pressure, however, there is less breakaway force required, so that's nice, dry testing against a kerb LSC closed and 0-1 click HSC feels good, will see on the trail, definitely should keep me from using too much travel on smaller features, should also make the fork ride a bit higher on repeated hits, might still want to go for a little more IRT pressure, but I'll leave main as is.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So I decided to follow Dougal's advice:

I'm 195# plus kit, riding two different Mattocs, one is a 27.5 160mm on a GG Shred Dogg and the other is a 29 140mm on a Canfield Tilt.

The Mattoc 27.5 160mm fork has never felt bad, I can't remember the setting but it's like 60/100, R-4, LSC 0-1, HSC1, two click of bottom out. Maybe it's the longer travel, but it just rides nice so I leave it alone. All settings are measure from open. Main/IRT

The one that I can't seem to get feeling good is the 29 140mm on my Tilt. I previously ran this fork on my GG Shred and it also felt bad on that bike. Currently running 60/100, LSC and HSC open, R-4, two clicks of bottom out. All settings are measure from open. Main/IRT

So I changed things up yesterday, dropped the main to 40 and upped the IRT to 120, yes this was extreme but I wanted to see the difference. 

Results were interesting, it was more plush, ramped up fast, and I was able to use some LSC to control the action. After a couple laps I closed up the gap and settled on 50/110, LSC 1-2, HSC 0-1, R 4-5, two click of bottom out.

So far this feels better.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

So unfortunately more damping less air didn't work out for me, tried 1 click HSC LSC closed with 50/100 psi, first run and I knew I need more end stroke support, bumped IRT to 110, after 2 more runs my hands were getting beat up, fully open HSC and fully closed LSC seems to be the best spot, a bit more damper support but not too much feedback, I'm more or less back to the pressure I started with, but it does indeed feel better with a bit more damping.
In the mean time tried speeding up the rebound one more click, came back to the base setting- my fingers didn't like too quick rebound at all, didn't feel any lack of control surprisingly.
Is there a spreadsheet dedicated for Mattoc settings?
My wrists definitely prefer having a bit more sag, @15% they hurt a bit after 2 days, I also realized that maybe I just need a higher rise handlebar, instead of rising main pressure 😅


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

There is a spread sheet, I'm trying to remember how I've got mine set up. Normally 2:1 IRT:Main so 80:40 and so on. LSC closed, HSC one click from open, HBC one click from open. 170mm of travel and 75kg naked.

I'll have to check the link on a laptop









Manitou Mattoc Settings Database


Mattock settings spreadsheet Username,Date,Fork Year,Fork Model,Fork Travel,Tires Pressure (PSI),Male / Female,Type of rider,Location,Type of terrain,Bike (mode/year),Bike Travel (front/rear),Head Angle,Seat Angle,IRT/IVA/none,New seals,Damper Oil,Semi Bath Oil,High Flow Valve (Yes/No),Weight (lbs)




docs.google.com


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> So unfortunately more damping less air didn't work out for me, tried 1 click HSC LSC closed with 50/100 psi, first run and I knew I need more end stroke support, bumped IRT to 110, after 2 more runs my hands were getting beat up, fully open HSC and fully closed LSC seems to be the best spot, a bit more damper support but not too much feedback, I'm more or less back to the pressure I started with, but it does indeed feel better with a bit more damping.
> In the mean time tried speeding up the rebound one more click, came back to the base setting- my fingers didn't like too quick rebound at all, didn't feel any lack of control surprisingly.
> Is there a spreadsheet dedicated for Mattoc settings?
> My wrists definitely prefer having a bit more sag, @15% they hurt a bit after 2 days, I also realized that maybe I just need a higher rise handlebar, instead of rising main pressure 😅


Have you tested your shock pump against others? Where are you running HBO?

Higher bars sound like an improvement.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

HBO @3 clicks atm, my pump is reading ~10psi high compared to another.


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## RichyD (Sep 6, 2021)

New member here having just bought some used 27.5 boost Mattoc pro. I'm sending them for a service but wanted to change the travel to 140mm at the same time, unfortunately i don't have the required spacers. Does anyone know of a UK supplier of the 121-29113 spacers please?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

RichyD said:


> Does anyone know of a UK supplier of the 121-29113 spacers please?


For the lack of a reply, don't know if you can acquire the spacers easily, but you can take them out of the IVA (if you have it) or use a 10mm id plastic pipe instead, the pipe method requires more disassembly (need to take off the piston or the valve to gain access) but gives additional negative chamber volume.
You could also just manually lower the fork without disassembly, just connect the fork and push it till desired height, disconnect the pump, but that's a pita to do consistently.

I have a question of my own, someone mentioned of converting a Mattoc to the foot nut setup of the Mezzer, the question is, can the Mezzer nuts with orings be acquired anywhere, and can the lowers be safely shaved down to length to accommodate those? Removing the threads would be easy enough


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

muddy_pl said:


> How much longer we will wait for all new Mattoc? Any rumors around?


Bump this question up... Surely someone knows of a rumour.... 
we all know mattoc Pro stock has been dwindling fro more than a year, new R7, new Dorado and New Mezzer have all been released.... and the mattoc is lagging behind the mezzer in stats, its got to be coming soon!!!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Mattoc has been updated not that long ago color change, IRT, low friction seals etc.), I wouldn't expect anything but a sticker change, I might be wrong though, an air chamber redesign could be useful, not financially viable probably though.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I've got a fresh Mattoc Pro 3 Boost 29" set at 140mm, it's got ~ 50 hours, no damage, looking for best offer. I'll post it on Pinkbike.

Great fork, got two Mattocs, I'm selling this one to get a longer travel fork.


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

piciu256 said:


> Mattoc has been updated not that long ago color change, IRT, low friction seals etc.), I wouldn't expect anything but a sticker change, I might be wrong though, an air chamber redesign could be useful, not financially viable probably though.


Stickers was changed last year. But whole chassis is very old I think, it's heavier than Mezzer, so for sure it needs to be refreshed.
BTW. where can I get 29" 150mm 44mm offset Mattoc in Europe?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

minisman said:


> Bump this question up... Surely someone knows of a rumour....
> we all know mattoc Pro stock has been dwindling fro more than a year, new R7, new Dorado and New Mezzer have all been released.... and the mattoc is lagging behind the mezzer in stats, its got to be coming soon!!!


You can only whip the engineers so hard......


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## eltitorito91 (May 2, 2020)

Dougal said:


> You can only whip the engineers so hard......


Hi Dougal, I have few questions of you dont mind, I got a Manitou Mattoc pro 2 160 mm / 27.5 with the IRT upgrade and low friction seals, Bought at Wiggle.co.uk 4 years ago, and it always had issues to be fair, i had a high speed compression dial that would get stuck after 2 clicks or so and creaking fork crown ( Still creaks, going to try green locktide ) Manitou send me a complete new MC2 compression unit for free and for some reason that new one had same issue with stuck dial after few clicks?!

Almost a year later i contacted manitou again and they took the fork back free of charge to fix the Compression unit and do a service on it ( Manitou customer service is amazing! )

But now after having the fork back i can't seem to dial it in right... i weight around *75 kg* and have *40 psi Main* and *100 psi IRT* When i put a click of high speed compression it feels harsch and so i dont use the high speed compression. Witht the lowspeed dial it gets harsh about 2 clicks, just doesnt seem to work how it should. Are you not supposed to use few clicks of highs speed compression for the low speed to do anything? My low speed at max setting locks out the fork with no high speed clicks engaged. 
If i start using the Hi/Low speed diales the fork starts to feels harsch so i kinda run them almost open with maby 1/2 click low speed sometimes. i still have the old MC2 unit and when you turn the high speed dial it gets stuck few clicks in and you can get to 3th click maby, the new one still gets bit heavy at click 5/6, is there something that can get stuck on the damper unit?

My bike is a Bird Aeris XL 2018 with 145 mm back & 160 front and generous reach of 520 mm its long/slack so might need to run the fork bit softer?

For some reason i still can't part with the fork and want it to work right... but i am almost at the point of going with a ZEB or something. when i hop on my friends Giant reign with Lyrik 160 Solo air 2017, that feels much smoother compared to my Mattoc 2.. i also find that sometimes the fork sticks a bit when using compression and the smoothness when no compression used is gone.

I rode in Ferme libert Bikepark (Belgium) last weekend and the fork would really beat me up on the brake bumps, also losing a lot of speed. is this fork just not up for agressive bikepark riding or?
Was hoping you can give me some pointers maby, if not i understand also  sadly iam no fork expert myself... Thanks in advance!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hi, I'm no Dougal, however I can tell you that for sure, you aren't supposed to have 6 clicks of high speed adjustment avaible, secondly, with no high speed compression added, the low speed dial shouldn't do pretty much anything in the parking lot, while it adds support on the trail, but without harshness, sounds like there is still a problem with your damper unit 🤔
I ride with no HS open, LS closed, 2 (out of 4 avaible, click 4 gets sortof stuck) clicks HS was harsh on chattery square edged bumps, one click was not harsh, but transferred too much feedback, LSC closed only provides a noticeable change in support, while not tiring me out.
With my damper, the HSC dial open means the stack has pretty much no preload, but no float either, it should be that way afaik, with your unit it sounds like not only do you have preload in open position, there is something with the dial limits, probably both related do proper damper spacing (since the adjuster adds preload directly, proper spacing is quite critical)
Are you mechanically inclined enough, and do you have time to take the damper unit apart?
Sucks that your issue wasn't resolved, but it really is a great fork, much better than stock RS offerings imo.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eltitorito91 said:


> Hi Dougal, I have few questions of you dont mind, I got a Manitou Mattoc pro 2 160 mm / 27.5 with the IRT upgrade and low friction seals, Bought at Wiggle.co.uk 4 years ago, and it always had issues to be fair, i had a high speed compression dial that would get stuck after 2 clicks or so and creaking fork crown ( Still creaks, going to try green locktide ) Manitou send me a complete new MC2 compression unit for free and for some reason that new one had same issue with stuck dial after few clicks?!
> 
> Almost a year later i contacted manitou again and they took the fork back free of charge to fix the Compression unit and do a service on it ( Manitou customer service is amazing! )
> 
> ...


Unless you're going really big the 40/100psi pressure split is wrong. I was running 40/60psi for easier riding and 40/80psi for bike park.

High speed compression adds preload to the damper which does make it harsh unless you need that much damping. You won't need more than 1 click of HSC, better with zero and you can use more LSC with my high flow piston.


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## eltitorito91 (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for your response and input guys! I tried 40/80 and kinda like it i think, gonna do some proper testing on different settings in the woods, one question; when i fully open my HSC dial and close the LSC dial the fork locks out completely, thats how its should right? (no HSC clicks engaged needed) I just fidled a bit and did slight testing in the garden where i have 40 cm ledge to drop off and do some simple testing for now;

Main - 40 psi
IRT - 80 psi
LSC - 2 clicks from open
HSC - 3 clicks from open
Rebound - 4 clicks from open/fast

This all might change when i do some proper testing later with trying different settings, want to do day riding just set-up might do that tommorow.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The fork shouldn't "lock out" till you have at least 2 clicks of HSC imo, with 1 click you might feel a slight platform, bit nothing spectacular, if you feel lockout with zero clicks (fully anti clockwise) then you have a preloaded stack, and you can't do anything about it without opening the damper. I only use 2 clicks of HSC when doing singular unusually large features with harsh landing that I'm unsure about.
40/80 split is reasonable, and really comfortable I reckon, however if you do jumps/ drops larger than 1m often, you might find to need more, I run 50/110 (probably more like 40/100, my pump has had a hard life) with HBO almost closed @150 travel and still find a hard bottom from time to time 😅
I run LSC closed now, as mentioned, helps against using too much travel on smaller features and probably adds support in turns etc.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

eltitorito91 said:


> Thanks for your response and input guys! I tried 40/80 and kinda like it i think, gonna do some proper testing on different settings in the woods, one question; when i fully open my HSC dial and close the LSC dial the fork locks out completely, thats how its should right? (no HSC clicks engaged needed) I just fidled a bit and did slight testing in the garden where i have 40 cm ledge to drop off and do some simple testing for now;
> 
> Main - 40 psi
> IRT - 80 psi
> ...


So there was a Plus bike compression damper which had a default preloaded shim stack. Used in the Magnum and Mattoc 27+ and 29+ versions. An 8mm platform shim that always gave the fork some damping platform. I haven't ridden one of these for ages, but that would give you a lockoutish feel with the LSC closed.
The normal Mattoc damper (same damper, just didn't have that extra shim) doesn't have a platform effect with LSC closed.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

eltitorito91 said:


> Thanks for your response and input guys! I tried 40/80 and kinda like it i think, gonna do some proper testing on different settings in the woods, one question; when i fully open my HSC dial and close the LSC dial the fork locks out completely, thats how its should right? (no HSC clicks engaged needed) I just fidled a bit and did slight testing in the garden where i have 40 cm ledge to drop off and do some simple testing for now;
> 
> Main - 40 psi
> IRT - 80 psi
> ...


I ride a mattoc at ferme libert and any other spot/bikepark in that region, but i have a high flow piston.  
I am +- 80 to 85kg full kit, have 70 psi main and go up to 155 psi irt 2clicks high speed from open, low speed depends bike park or natural trail.
I would say that reboundspeed is also important to feel good on the bike. Have you experimented with that? How is your tire pressure?

It's hard to say but feel you run soft pressures for bikepark like ferme libert, try go higher, cost nothing. Forget about sag for a minute.

Reallly hope you get your problems solved.


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## eltitorito91 (May 2, 2020)

thova said:


> I ride a mattoc at ferme libert and any other spot/bikepark in that region, but i have a high flow piston.
> I am +- 80 to 85kg full kit, have 70 psi main and go up to 155 psi irt 2clicks high speed from open, low speed depends bike park or natural trail.
> I would say that reboundspeed is also important to feel good on the bike. Have you experimented with that? How is your tire pressure?
> 
> ...


yoo, yeah last time at Ferme libert if felt quite beat up from the brake bumps and did not have fork setup right i think, i did jump all the tables&jumps tho and went pretty well overal, only the brakebumps in corners would really slow me down and feel uncontrolled. Do you slow down the rebound more when using higher pressures?
Im going to bikepark Winterberg this Thursday so im trying to get it better for that park, thinkin of trying the 4 meter road gap there ? Also my bike has 145 mm in the rear because the 160 mm link is still noth available from BIRD for my bike, hope to get it soon to balance it out more with front.

Is the High flow piston a big worthy upgrade? At ferme libert it felt that the fork was not able to keep up with the chatter at high speeds since you go so fast there charging the left track from the top that goes by mini loose.

Also does your fork crown creak when doing a stoppie/endo? think iam going to try put the fork upside down and let some green locktide seep in.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Loctite won't help with creaking, it's too tight. For braking bumps etc. try faster rebound, did wonders for me, faster as in till the wheel comes off the ground when you push down on the bars and release, minus one click.


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## eltitorito91 (May 2, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Loctite won't help with creaking, it's too tight. For braking bumps etc. try faster rebound, did wonders for me, faster as in till the wheel comes off the ground when you push down on the bars and release, minus one click.


👌


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## Inclag (Jan 19, 2004)

Question for you Mattoc owners. Would any of you be able to measure the ID of the stanchion for me and report back? 

I'm aware there were some minor differences between the pro/expert/comp. I'm presuming stanchion ID is not one.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It is, pro/ expert is butted(31mm id), comp is not (29mm id)


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## Inclag (Jan 19, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> It is, pro/ expert is butted(31mm id), comp is not (29mm id)


Awesome! Thanks a bunch. So the MC2 is sized for a 31mm ID.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Not sure, would have to measure the IRT piston, and I cannot be bothered to take it out, the top and bottom diameters are different from what I saw, certainly this site sudgests that the top diameters are also different between comp and expert/ pro uppers.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Did some testing and recording today at my local trails, to have something to hopefully compare visually when I switch to a Mezzer.








Both LSC closed, HSC open, HBO almost closed, IRT 110psi, main 40 vs 50 (been running 40 lately for mellower, longer rides, better seated compliance)
50 main gives me better comfidence than 40, higher ride height and more pop (even if sped up rebound for 40), travel used is not very relevant as on those trails a 120mm well damped fork would be enough.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

That was a cool video. GoPro's etc are really useful for showing things that are hard to describe or feel


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

piciu256 said:


> Mattoc has been updated not that long ago color change, IRT, low friction seals etc.), I wouldn't expect anything but a sticker change, I might be wrong though, an air chamber redesign could be useful, not financially viable probably though.





muddy_pl said:


> Stickers was changed last year. But whole chassis is very old I think, it's heavier than Mezzer, so for sure it needs to be refreshed.
> BTW. where can I get 29" 150mm 44mm offset Mattoc in Europe?





Dougal said:


> You can only whip the engineers so hard......


I talked to one of the guys at the Manitou booth at Sea Otter for a while because I have been considering getting either the Mattoc or Mezzer @ 130-140 on a Ripley. Other than the 1g weight penalty and being "off the charts" at 130, I see no reason to get the current Mattoc over the Mezzer for my needs. I was told that they are not planning any more runs of the current Mattoc because they are in the process of bringing out a replacement model next year. 

There was nothing really official beyond that. Reading between the lines, they'll be taking what they've learned with their more recent redesigns and applying it to the new Mattoc (lighter, stiffer, etc.). I'm hopeful they'll at least have a demo model and more detailed information on the new fork at Sea Otter in the spring.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Nice to hear, I'll probably stick with the Mezzer, as I'm set at 170mm travel, even though I would, if anything, benefit from less chassis stiffness.


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## cashews (Jan 17, 2020)

rton20s said:


> I talked to one of the guys at the Manitou booth at Sea Otter for a while because I have been considering getting either the Mattoc or Mezzer @ 130-140 on a Ripley. Other than the 1g weight penalty and being "off the charts" at 130, I see no reason to get the current Mattoc over the Mezzer for my needs. I was told that they are not planning any more runs of the current Mattoc because they are in the process of bringing out a replacement model next year.
> 
> There was nothing really official beyond that. Reading between the lines, they'll be taking what they've learned with their more recent redesigns and applying it to the new Mattoc (lighter, stiffer, etc.). I'm hopeful they'll at least have a demo model and more detailed information on the new fork at Sea Otter in the spring.


I wouldn't write off a mattoc, it's a very good trail fork & would suit a Ripley well.
Given it's discontinued & currently going through a redesign if you come across one at a decent price I'd jump on it.

I found it was more compliant than the mezzer (less hand feedback) & has a more linear air spring without the very progressive ramp up the mezzer, you just adjust the Hbo to suit the type of ramp up you prefer.
The differences don't sound like much but it has quite a different feel to a mezzer, which I really liked, so much so I spent the first 6 months of mezzer ownership experimenting with air pressures trying to recapture the mattoc feel.

It will be interesting to see what direction they take the redesign.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

cashews said:


> I wouldn't write off a mattoc, it's a very good trail fork & would suit a Ripley well.
> Given it's discontinued & currently going through a redesign if you come across one at a decent price I'd jump on it.
> 
> I found it was more compliant than the mezzer (less hand feedback) & has a more linear air spring without the very progressive ramp up the mezzer, you just adjust the Hbo to suit the type of ramp up you prefer.
> ...


No doubt the current Mattoc is a fine fork. But, availability is... well... typical, right now. I'm in no rush, and it's heavy. (I can want my cake and to eat it, too. Right?) I'll be better off waiting to see what the new model brings if I'm going to make a change. I'd be more likely to swap the stock DPS for a Mara first, anyway.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

rton20s said:


> I talked to one of the guys at the Manitou booth at Sea Otter for a while because I have been considering getting either the Mattoc or Mezzer @ 130-140 on a Ripley. Other than the 1g weight penalty and being "off the charts" at 130, I see no reason to get the current Mattoc over the Mezzer for my needs. I was told that they are not planning any more runs of the current Mattoc because they are in the process of bringing out a replacement model next year.
> 
> There was nothing really official beyond that. Reading between the lines, they'll be taking what they've learned with their more recent redesigns and applying it to the new Mattoc (lighter, stiffer, etc.). I'm hopeful they'll at least have a demo model and more detailed information on the new fork at Sea Otter in the spring.


Thanks for the update, everything you say supports my thoughts... about lack of stock meaning a redesign is underway
The Mattoc really is the size range that suits a big range of riders and bikes... I cant wait for an updated one. I have the 2021 r7 pro on my XC race bike, and I look forward to putting a 2022 mattoc pro/comp on my trail bike.


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## NuclearNachos (Sep 25, 2021)

Was planning on throwing a mattoc on a new build (most likely a pipedream sirius or maybe moxie/honzo st), is it worth it for waiting for the new one and throwing a temp fork on? Was considering a r7 pro also but don't know if it would stand up to more demanding trails such as moab or out west. Also would the new pro/comp models be similar to current pricing? Can find r7 and mattoc pro's for around 500 used and was planning on keeping the fork budget around there and 900 wouldn't be ideal for a new one. Mezzer also isn't really an option as trails would be mixed 45/45 xc and trail, think it would be much too stiff and long for the frame geo and design.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

NuclearNachos said:


> Was planning on throwing a mattoc on a new build (most likely a pipedream sirius or maybe moxie/honzo st), is it worth it for waiting for the new one and throwing a temp fork on? Was considering a r7 pro also but don't know if it would stand up to more demanding trails such as moab or out west. Also would the new pro/comp models be similar to current pricing? Can find r7 and mattoc pro's for around 500 used and was planning on keeping the fork budget around there and 900 wouldn't be ideal for a new one. Mezzer also isn't really an option as trails would be mixed 45/45 xc and trail, think it would be much too stiff and long for the frame geo and design.


Is this bike going to be your primary rig / dream build? If so then sure, wait til something new and sparkly arrives.

The current Mattoc damper especially in the pro variety supported by IRT is a fantastic fork. I run mine at 150mm and have zero complaints about it.

Regarding pricing for a model that they have not even officially released its existence you probably won't get accurate info. History shows that new product typically has new (higher) pricing.


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## NuclearNachos (Sep 25, 2021)

006_007 said:


> Is this bike going to be your primary rig / dream build? If so then sure, wait til something new and sparkly arrives.
> 
> The current Mattoc damper especially in the pro variety supported by IRT is a fantastic fork. I run mine at 150mm and have zero complaints about it.
> 
> Regarding pricing for a model that they have not even officially released its existence you probably won't get accurate info. History shows that new product typically has new (higher) pricing.


I would be my main rig, but it's not going to be a top of the line dream build (m7000 brakes+drivetrain) so don't need the newest and fanciest. I understand about the pricing and that it doesn't even exist yet, but if it's similar to current prices i'll just buy used because it would be used current pro vs new comp model most likely and the current one is plenty good from what I've seen. cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

NuclearNachos said:


> I would be my main rig, but it's not going to be a top of the line dream build (m7000 brakes+drivetrain) so don't need the newest and fanciest. I understand about the pricing and that it doesn't even exist yet, but if it's similar to current prices i'll just buy used because it would be used current pro vs new comp model most likely and the current one is plenty good from what I've seen. cheers
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I Ride a 120mm travel Scott Spark and replaced the orginal Fox 34s with the new R7. and It can definitely handle decent trail riding as well as the 34 did. The R7 is not a noodly race fork, it will do anything any other 120mm travel fork can do. (just make sure your bushings arent tight)


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Waiting for a vapor wear fork in the age of COVID is like asking the bank to give you credit without collarateral.

Enjoy the wait!

In regards to choosing a Mattoc or a Mezzer, if you don’t need the travel, why buy a heavier and more expensive fork?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It's not really heavier and has updated internal design (most notably less friction and high flow damper piston), the only real potential disadvantage being more stiffness.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Waiting for a vapor wear fork in the age of COVID is like asking the bank to give you credit without collarateral.
> 
> Enjoy the wait!


From past experience, Manitou seems to be pretty good at planning their releases and having product available at launch (having a direct-to-consumer storefront seems to help a bit with that).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

piciu256 said:


> It's not really heavier and has updated internal design (most notably less friction and high flow damper piston), the only real potential disadvantage being more stiffness.


The Mezzer is heavier than the Mattoc by about 100 gms depending on mode and year. That's not a lot but it's more weight and if you don't need it then why get it.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> The Mezzer is heavier than the Mattoc by about 100 gms depending on mode and year. That's not a lot but it's more weight and if you don't need it then why get it.


As @piciu256 said, the benefit is the updated internals - is it worth 100g is debatable.


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## muddy_pl (Oct 30, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> The Mezzer is heavier than the Mattoc by about 100 gms depending on mode and year. That's not a lot but it's more weight and if you don't need it then why get it.


Are you comparing 29' models?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Just updated internals? 

No. You're getting a stiffer fork. A fork with a wider range of travel. Better damper. Higher resale. Much better tire clearances.

In my mind, the only reason to go with the Mattoc over the Mezzer is the cost. 

The Mezzer was designed to beat all of the current crop of 35/36mm forks and contend with the new crop of 38mm forks at a lighter weight. It's a 2019 design, instead of a 2012 design "updated". 

Mattoc 29 doesn't fit a 2.6. 
Mattoc 29+ is heavy for 120mm. 2012g-2033g

Mezzer is 2093g and will fit 29x2.8, going to 180mm with that tire.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

I think I was the one that most recently brought up the Mattoc vs Mezzer discussion, as well as the pending release of a Mattoc redesign. I started looking at Manitou for a 140mm fork as a possible replacement for my current 29" Fox 34 Performance with Grip damper run at 130mm. When comparing the 29" Mattoc Pro vs Mezzer Pro for my particular configuration, the Mattoc weighs 1g MORE than the Mezzer.


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## RichyD (Sep 6, 2021)

piciu256 said:


> For the lack of a reply, don't know if you can acquire the spacers easily, but you can take them out of the IVA (if you have it) or use a 10mm id plastic pipe instead, the pipe method requires more disassembly (need to take off the piston or the valve to gain access) but gives additional negative chamber volume.
> You could also just manually lower the fork without disassembly, just connect the fork and push it till desired height, disconnect the pump, but that's a pita to do consistently.
> 
> I have a question of my own, someone mentioned of converting a Mattoc to the foot nut setup of the Mezzer, the question is, can the Mezzer nuts with orings be acquired anywhere, and can the lowers be safely shaved down to length to accommodate those? Removing the threads would be easy enough


Thanks for the help! 

I tracked some down in New Zeland and ordered a few spares in case anyone is in need. 

I have since been relieved of my Mattoc Pros after sending them with Hermes to be serviced. All indications point to them being stolen by a Hermes employee at the Warrington depot. They are now for sale on ebay in Birmingham but neither Hermes, Ebay or West Mids Police seem interested in doing anything about it 😕. 

They are reported stolen and need bushing work so probably best avoided unless anyone fancies popping round with a bat to get them back for me!? 😂


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

I know I’ve read it here…can’t for the life of me find it now. 

Am I correct that the Magnum Pro has a different platform shim in the damper? I’m looking to get rid of the lock-out/platform feel of my magnum and get some more range out of my low speed dial. 

I’m pretty sure I remember it coming down to like one shim being the difference between mattoc and magnum. Some marketing about plus tires…

Thanks if anyone knows!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghughes.hesinc said:


> I know I’ve read it here…can’t for the life of me find it now.
> 
> Am I correct that the Magnum Pro has a different platform shim in the damper? I’m looking to get rid of the lock-out/platform feel of my magnum and get some more range out of my low speed dial.
> 
> ...


There's a plaform shim 21x8mm that you should remove. The other 21x10mm you need to leave in.


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

Had a bit of a strange one.. my mattoc pros have been on my bike for 18 months, ~1000 miles.. a few services...
came up short on a landing, dont think idid anything nasty to the forks, then had an OTB, and then a mate noticed they looked soft... not sure what order this happened in...
but i sut went out nad checked pressures.. they were round about what i last noted down 43 lower, 75 iva/irt (whichever one) but still stupid soft. i depressurised the both ends and noticed they sucked down, obviously this meant there was pressure on the wrong side of hte piston.
i cycled them with the pump attached.. and put the pressures back to what they should be, and all feels normal again.
not sure if this is an indication of a need to do a piston service or if something happened on my heavy landing.. i do however, suspect its the reason for my OTB which i couldnt explain when it happened...


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd say the botched landing caused much more side loading than designed for, resulting in slightly crooked piston for a split second which allowed pressure to go past it, I've seen a Boxxer split in half like that on a large enough jump, the forces in such scenario are quite extreme.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Tech question:

I have a Mattoc Pro 29” 120mm, the fork is very similar to a Mattoc Pro 27.5 160mm.

Can I remove “spacers” in the fork to convert it to a 27.5 fork?

If yes to the above, can this fork be reduced to a 120mm travel?

Last question:
When I reduce travel using the shock pump, is there any downside to doing this?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Alan1977 said:


> Had a bit of a strange one.. my mattoc pros have been on my bike for 18 months, ~1000 miles.. a few services...
> came up short on a landing, dont think idid anything nasty to the forks, then had an OTB, and then a mate noticed they looked soft... not sure what order this happened in...
> but i sut went out nad checked pressures.. they were round about what i last noted down 43 lower, 75 iva/irt (whichever one) but still stupid soft. i depressurised the both ends and noticed they sucked down, obviously this meant there was pressure on the wrong side of hte piston.
> i cycled them with the pump attached.. and put the pressures back to what they should be, and all feels normal again.
> not sure if this is an indication of a need to do a piston service or if something happened on my heavy landing.. i do however, suspect its the reason for my OTB which i couldnt explain when it happened...


43 psi on the main spring seems pretty low, especially for jumping. 75 IRT (top cap) is OK, that's what I use, normally somewhere between 70-90 psi for that one. So it's probably traveling a bit much on normal stuff, are you using a lot of compression for 43 psi? I'm at 60 psi for the main spring with a lot of compression normally, so I think the main spring PSI and lack of compression is the softness, not anything intrinsically bad with the fork.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Don't compare psi with no context, different pumps read pressure differently, different people have different riding styles and weigh differently.
For you jumps may mean 20 metre road gaps, for someone else it may mean 3m doubles or even smaller.


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

to add context, i ride natural or groomed trails 95% of the time, jumping is usually limited to bike lengths and no more than a couple of feet of height, im 78kg, the mattocs are 160mm on a 145mm FS.
Im usuing a lifeline? digital pump, because my analogue pump was more than vague, and i wanted to at least record my own settings and set consistantly. at these sort of pressures my sag is about right.. i do regualrly use 80% of travel, i did have a click of lsc on, and i do have a lot of HBO on in case of jumps or hard landings.


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> Tech question:
> 
> I have a Mattoc Pro 29” 120mm, the fork is very similar to a Mattoc Pro 27.5 160mm.
> 
> ...


you can just put a 27.5 wheel in. .however.. a 29" 120mm fork has a an axle to crown measurement closer to a 27.5 140mm fork.. so on a bike meant for 27.5 120, youd lift the front by approx 20mm and alter the rest of the geometry accordingly


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Alan1977 said:


> you can just put a 27.5 wheel in. .however.. a 29" 120mm fork has a an axle to crown measurement closer to a 27.5 140mm fork.. so on a bike meant for 27.5 120, youd lift the front by approx 20mm and alter the rest of the geometry accordingly


Thats not my question.

What internal parts can be removed to change it from a 29” to a 27.5 fork, ie I believe there are fond spacers on the air shaft that prevent full travel.


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

there are no internal parts to change it to 27.5 the only thing that makes it a 29" fork is the high position of the arch, im guessing if you wanted to make it a true 27.5 youd just need to change the lowers


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Not only lowers but at least the compression assembly too, since the HBO is located at 120mm position, either way not economically viable. 
Either accept the high stack height, or take advantage of it and go mullet.
As for changing travel with the pump, the biggest issue here is lack of repeatability.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Alan1977 said:


> there are no internal parts to change it to 27.5 the only thing that makes it a 29" fork is the high position of the arch, im guessing if you wanted to make it a true 27.5 youd just need to change the lowers


I don't think that's right, the lowers are identical to the lowers on my 27.5 160 Mattoc.

Maybe Dougal can chime in?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

How can the lowers be the same if it's the 29" version will lower travel? Think about it for a second. 27.5 lowers definitely won't fit a 29" wheel, I tried, I mean they fit, but with a 2" or narrower tire.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

piciu256 said:


> How can the lowers be the same if it's the 29" version will lower travel? Think about it for a second. 27.5 lowers definitely won't fit a 29" wheel, I tried, I mean they fit, but with a 2" or narrower tire.


Okay, yeah, that makes sense, but they have the same A-C, so I might just need different lowers. 

Probably looking at a new fork ....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Tech question:
> 
> I have a Mattoc Pro 29” 120mm, the fork is very similar to a Mattoc Pro 27.5 160mm.
> 
> ...


29" has longer shafts and lowers. So it can't be converted easily.

Only downside to reducing travel with the pump trick is it's hard to do the same height twice.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dougal said:


> 29" has longer shafts and lowers. So it can't be converted easily.
> 
> Only downside to reducing travel with the pump trick is it's hard to do the same height twice.


Thanks Dougal, I’ll just sell it and get a 27.5” version or get another Mezzer.


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## ebolamonkey (Nov 18, 2020)

@Dougal What are the major differences between the MY17/18 Mattoc Pro and the prior years (2016, 15, etc)?

Are the newer ones that much better than the older models?

I see IRT on the newer Mattoc Pros and the 2016 versions have TPC+.

Example -

*2016:*

*Travel Options: *140mm, 150mm, 160mm (26" & 27.5"), 170mm (26" Only) using the provided internal spacers
*Weight: *1877g
*Spring:* DH Air (Dorado)
*Spring Rate:* n/a
*Bottom Out: *Adjustable HBO and Rubber Bumper
*Crown:* Forged Deep Bore Hollow
*Offset:* 41mm (26")/44mm (27.5")
*Compression Damping:* TPC Technology, MC2-In Leg
*Rebound Damping* Adjustable TPC Cartridge
*Adjustments* Air, Compression (High Speed and TPC+), Hydraulic Bottom Out, Rebound
*Leg Diameter:* 34mm
*Leg Material: *7050 Butted Aluminium
*Brake:* Post Mount 180mm
*Axle:* QR15
*Crown to Axle:* 525/535/545/555 (26"), 535/545/555 (27.5")
*TPC (Twin Position Chamber)*: Providing 4-Dimensional Compression Damping; The velocity dependant circuit responds to the terrain while the Pressure Dependant Circuit flattens the bumps, the Energy Dependant Circuit activates on big hits while providing unmatched small bump sensitivity and the Position Dependant Circuit creates a bottomless feel.
*Dorado Air Spring:* Features a single air input on top of the fork and a large volume air spring to give a linear spring feel. Combined these give the ultimate sensitivity for any rider in any condition.
*Current (2021-2022):*

*Wheel Size:* 27.5", 27.5" Boost, 27.5+/29"
*Weight: *1892g (27.5") 1809g (27.5" Boost) 2033g
*Offset:* 44mm (27.5", 27.5" Boost) 51mm
*Ride Height:* 529-549mm (27.5") 535-565mm (27.5" Boost) 509-549mm
*Travel:* 140-160mm (27.5") 140-170mm (27.5" Boost) 100-140mm (27.5+/29") Internally adjustable in 10mm increments
*Spring: *Dorado Air w/ IRT
*Compression Damping:* MC2 w/ Adjustable HBO
*Rebound Damping:* Adjustable TPC Cartridge
*Adjustments:* Air Pressure, IRT Pressure, Rebound, HS and LS Compression, Hydraulic Bottom Out
*Steerer:* 1.5" Tapered
*Crown:* Forged Aluminum, Deep Bore Hollow
*Leg Diameter:* 34mm
*Leg Material:* 7000 Series butted Aluminum
*Brake:* Post Mount 180mm (203mm Max)
*Axle: *15mm x 110mm Hexlock SL
*Max Tire Size:* 63mm (27.5") 67mm (27.5" Boost) 87mm (27.5+), 65mm (29")
*E-Pac:* No
Thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ebolamonkey said:


> @Dougal What are the major differences between the MY17/18 Mattoc Pro and the prior years (2016, 15, etc)?
> 
> Are the newer ones that much better than the older models?
> 
> ...


MY18 was Boost and up to 170mm travel with 27". Non-Boost can do 170mm with 26" and 160mm with 27".
Springs and dampers are basically the same. Base tunes changed by a shim or two. Things like IRT are backwards compatible.


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## ebolamonkey (Nov 18, 2020)

Dougal said:


> MY18 was Boost and up to 170mm travel with 27". Non-Boost can do 170mm with 26" and 160mm with 27".
> Springs and dampers are basically the same. Base tunes changed by a shim or two. Things like IRT are backwards compatible.


Thanks! For the same given price or lower, I went with the newer model Pro (MY19). Now I need to rebuild my non-boost wheel and recycle the spokes onto the boost hub...


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ebolamonkey said:


> Thanks! For the same given price or lower, I went with the newer model Pro (MY19). Now I need to rebuild my non-boost wheel and recycle the spokes onto the boost hub...


That's a lot of work when you can just use boost spacers. Costs a lot less as well.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Hi all, I am doing a winter service to my fork. Mattoc Pro Boost 27. 

I went back through basically this entire thread (only took me approximately 2 days, lol) to look for the posts stating to change the shaft seal in the end caps to a 10x3 O-ring. I just need some clarification if I am looking at the right spot. I've attached pictures.

I had no problem taking the air side off. Am I to remove the white backup ring and all other o-rings in there and simply replace with one 10x3mm o-ring? Whats the best way to undo the damper side end cap? Do I just unscrew the silver cap after I've removed the damper rod from inside?

Also, I've attached a picture of my date code, what do I learn about my fork from this number, other than, the date?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Hi all, I am doing a winter service to my fork. Mattoc Pro Boost 27.
> 
> I went back through basically this entire thread (only took me approximately 2 days, lol) to look for the posts stating to change the shaft seal in the end caps to a 10x3 O-ring. I just need some clarification if I am looking at the right spot. I've attached pictures.
> 
> ...


Yes flick out the white plastic backup ring.
Damper cap comes off afer you've removed the damper tube and the rebound piston. It also takes a 10x3 oring in place of the stock seal.
That is the steerer tube part number. It's not a date code.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Thanks Dougal, one more question. 

Stock damper fluid is Maxima 5wt. I have both Maxima 5wt and 3wt in my shop, which do you recommend? 
I've seen you recommend Motorex 2.5wt often, but it's difficult to find in Canada. 
If it helps, I'm approx 170lbs riding, ride pretty aggressively when the trails allow, however the majority of my home trails are fairly mellow.

Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Thanks Dougal, one more question.
> 
> Stock damper fluid is Maxima 5wt. I have both Maxima 5wt and 3wt in my shop, which do you recommend?
> I've seen you recommend Motorex 2.5wt often, but it's difficult to find in Canada.
> ...


Maxima 3wt is better than Maxima 5wt in a cartridge damper. Better in the hot and cold.


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## ramdm (Apr 25, 2014)

@Dougal 

I have a 2018 mattoc comp

Every time I go to use the fork I have to connect the air pump so that the pressures of the two chambers are equalized. If I don't, the fork is very soft and with little support. It is as if the negative camera has taken more pressure. The pump pressure gauge does not indicate air loss.

Here, at this time, It's not easy to get maintenance kits ...

I suppose that what needs to be changed is the rubber that closes between the two chambers ... Could you tell me what characteristics this rubber has, to try to buy it in a hydraulic store?

Thanks

Enviado desde mi M2102J20SG mediante Tapatalk


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

ok what happened here? much confusion
i serviced my pros, lower end..
instead of what ever random fork oil i used in the lowers last time, i chucked in some good old 5w30(please flame me if necessary, seemed suitable for lower end lube, i will buy some proper oil if required)
i regreased all the seals with slick honey
reassembled, and re pressurised everything, using the same digital shock pump, putt the irt? upto 60 odd first
then went to the lower and put it back to 43 psi as before (78kg rider mixed riding)

got to bike park wales and immidiately noticed it was way too soft under pedalling.. checked again and it was pretty much as i had left it.
ended up randomly pumping it up in the car park main and irt until it felt suitable.
still used a fair bit of travel on the day but it was OK
just checked the pressures now, 62 main 102 irt, only main difference being id dialled off all LSC, had 1 to 2 clicks on before


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

The fork might have gotten so much smoother after a service, or you had some pressure built up in the damper/ lowers.
In my case it was damper ingesting air from the lowers.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Alan1977 said:


> ok what happened here? much confusion
> i serviced my pros, lower end..
> instead of what ever random fork oil i used in the lowers last time, i chucked in some good old 5w30(please flame me if necessary, seemed suitable for lower end lube, i will buy some proper oil if required)
> i regreased all the seals with slick honey
> ...


Is your damper functioning correctly? Did you install the lowers with a vacuum inside?


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

i think it's functioning correctly...
there could potentially be a small vacuum in the lowers i guess, i cant remember in detail how extended the air shaft was when i fitted the lowers.. i mean there was definitely resistance against it...
interestingly, i looked up the recommended values.. and ive ended up exactly on it...
ridden again since, and it was good, really good anyway.. i had a lot of fun in the super sloppy steep hills of the UK south downs..


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

nikon255 said:


> Dougal is right. I made this and have no problems. One thing im not sure is lower air cap oring. I push there one but dont remember sizing. For sure I didnt remove PTFE ring. Ohh found it! For air spring:
> 10x2,5
> 9,92x2,62
> But Im still not sure which is used in my mattoc. Maybe even 10x3.



Hi Dougal,

Referencing this post, I am looking for the 10x3mm o-ring for my fork. Believe it or not I am actually having trouble finding the correct one. I have IMP 9/16 x 3/8 x 3/32 and also 9/16 x 7/16 x 3/32. None of my local hardware stores carry Metric  (welcome to Canada, where you're only taught Metric in school and deal with Imperial in real life)

The Metric one you advise, I assume it 10mm ID, correct? or 10mm OD? 

Thanks


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Yes, 10mm id, 3mm thickness, get one that's the closest to this size when converted, when I put mine in it was squished quite a lot, so I'd venture to guess a tiny bit looser fit wouldn't hurt anything.
Happy to say it doesn't suck down anymore, feels firmer too... Went down from 40 to 30 psi (new pump, now reading correctly) for 25% sag which leads me to assume my seal let lower pressure into the neg chamber immediately upon compressing the fork...
Glad to say also that I don't notice any increase in drag, there certainly is one, but for me it's not perceivable, which leads me to question the need to go for looser and looser fitting seals in air chambers.


Spoiler



I've been chasing other causes like an idiot, assuming since no oil was ingested, that it's something else, not the lower seal that's causing suck down 🤣


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## ebolamonkey (Nov 18, 2020)

006_007 said:


> That's a lot of work when you can just use boost spacers. Costs a lot less as well.


Got to do it right. Would be a pity to use the wrong spacing for a boost wheel.

Besides, the fork needs to be taken apart to reduce travel to 150mm from 160mm. Might as well do a wheel rebuild as well.


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## Nakkipata (Feb 20, 2019)

I am working on an OEM Manitou Magnum from 2016 Specialized Fuse Expert. It has ABS+ damper and ISO air spring, 120mm 27.5+/29.

I’ve seen some Manitous Mattoc models with ABS+ damper including HBO unit. Is this possible to upgrade afterwards to my magnum? Like in this picture I found somewhere from this thread









I’m asking the same question about the dorado air / expert air upgrade for this fork. Is the one for Mattoc comp shown on Manitou Mattoc Comps service manual compatible for this one as well as the IRT or IVA unit?

I’ve measured the stanchions having 29mm ID and 32mm on threads.


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## DG370 (Jan 4, 2022)

Hi all, awesome thread, great informative reading!

I have some 2020 Boost Mattoc Pro forks, looking to service them and fit the 10x3 O rings while I’m there.

Im also keen to high flow piston it, is this something I can do/modify myself?
I have a lathe/machine shop to hand here in the UK where I work.

They are def a bit harsh in the rock gardens and hope this will soften the HSC nicely


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Don't know how big of an effect this is, but you can defo do it yourself imo, even a Dremel would do really.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Manitou needs a 35mm Mattoc*


I've said it before, but I will say it again; Manitou needs a 35mm Mattoc. Why?


*1 First of all marketing.*

Manitou has the Enduro and Freeride end covered with the Mezzer. What they don’t have is a fork that will be a sales success in the all-mountain category. Think: Propain Hugene, Nukeproof Reactor RS, Giant Trance X 29, Santa Cruz Hightower, YT Jeffsey, Orbea Occam etc. You need more than a 34mm fork to be considered by the general public (even if it’s not technically needed). 34mm by the general riding public is considered a trail for and is not seen as a valid alternative to a Lyrik or a Fox 36.

*2 35mm will added some stiffness to the fork for heavier riders and for use at 150mm and 160mm.

3 The current 29er Mattoc does not go beyond 140mm

4 Give's the Mattoc and the Manitou brand another boost in publicity after the Mezzer.*

OEM it should only be offered at 150mm max (unless it’s a dedicated women’s built). Internally a lighter rider should be able to remove the last spacer and go to 160mm though.

You could just say, take a Mezzer. However many riders don’t want the weight of the Mezzer for a bike that needs to stay light because they want a light bike for climbing. Also a Mezzer is overkill for lighter and female riders.

They probably will be able to keep the weight the same.


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## 50wheeler (Nov 20, 2021)

Steve5 said:


> Looking at the MY21 Matto Comp 29+, It looks like they only have the 100mm Travel Version available:
> Mattoc Comp
> 
> If I'm reading the description right that means I cannot adjust the travel up to 120mm, I would have to buy the 120mm version (which is currently out of stock). Is that correct? Would I be able buy additional parts to make the travel adjustment work?


I bought a 2018 100mm mattoc 29+ from Jenson. took it apart and noticed there are two travel spacers in place but according to technical documents the 120mm should have 2 spacers. travel with 2 spacers is around 95mm. took out one spacer and travel went to 105. Not sure if this is a good idea but i did it and i'm going to run it this way for awhile. if its good, i'll remove the other space and should get 115mm travel. from what i can understand on the tech docs and part numbers, it looks like the 29+ uses the same stanchion/csu assembly as the 27.5+ which can go to 160mm so I feel somewhat safe that the fork won't fall apart on me or have stanchions move up past the upper bushings. time will tell, I'll let you know if I die.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

CS645 said:


> *Manitou needs a 35mm Mattoc*
> 
> 
> I've said it before, but I will say it again; Manitou needs a 35mm Mattoc. Why?
> ...


nah, we don't need a 35mm stanchion Mattoc, it can stay @34, good seal avaibility etc. and it doesn't have to be burly enough to compete with a lyric, we have the Mezzer for that, Mattoc competes with Pikes, fox 34 and the like, it could go down to 150mm max though, as the Mezzera covers larger travels well, there is no need for this much overlap.
Manitou doesn't have a chance with SRAM or Fox marketing wise, so I don't see them getting any large OEM contracts just yet anyway, they need to gain more attention and market first, Fox and RS are recognisable just by the matter of being everywhere, most people won't want "some Manipoo" on their shiny new bike.
Nad don't mention weight dude, the Mezzera is what? Whole 20g heavier than the mattoc 🤣 bruh, even if they optimiser the weight, I cannot imagine getting more than 100g less without major construction compromises (say Fox Stepcast for example), most people these days care more about performance than a literal couple of grams these days fortunately, so weight isn't really an issue for trail forks.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Your comparing with the 29 plus version of the Mattoc. Comparing the 27.5 boost versions of both models is a better indication. Then it's 1.809g vs. 2.000g. But it's not primarily about the weight. I convinced a friend to upgrade the Fox 34 140mm on his Orbea Occam to a 150mm Mezzer. He's 190lbs kitted up and a strong rider. He can make plenty of use of the Mezzer's stiffness. His girlfriend wants to do the same, is leaning towards a Manitou fork as well, but the Mezzer is just too stiff for her 155lbs. The Mattoc 29 is not available in 150mm.

A 35mm Mattoc at 1.800g (27.5) and 1850g (29), would be a perfect fork for all 130-150mm 29er use (and 160mm for 27.5 and female and light riders on a 29er). It would be (perceived as) capable enough as a 29er fork at 150mm on an all-mountain, but light enough to be a Fox 34 or Pike alternative on a Ripley, Tallboy, Giant Trance etc. etc.

You said: "they need to gain more attention and market first", you do that by having a product range that caters for what the market wants to buy and get those products reviewed.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

35mm stanchions really won't do anything for popularity, I wouldn't be totally surprised if they for for 37mm though, since they said it's the best for weight to stiffness ratio, anyway, I myself weighing at 55kg kitted up don't feel being overforked on a mezzer or similar fork, it really should be about the amount of travel rather than "for heavier or lighter riders" for lightweight riders the current Mattoc would do well @160mm, however no 29" option, for heavier riders it would do probably great @130-140, but not necessarily @160, hence I believe Mezzer should stay for 180-140, and Mattoc should fill the more trail oriented duty, if you want a heavy hitter (even in trail travel form) go for the Mezzer, if you want lighter weight, and not necessarily need super stiffness etc. go for a mattoc.
Even if Manitou gained popularity miraculously overnight, It'd take long years for them to take the market over, there are big contract deals already in place between manufacturers, and SRAM in perticular has the benefit of not only being a suspension company, but also selling most of the other bike components, which gives them a great market advantage in value to a bike manufacturer.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Anyway, whatever route they went, it's most certainly already decided and went into production, so we will probably know in a couple of months.
For sure a proper 29er version will come, no reason not to, will see what (if any) other changes they made.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

piciu256 said:


> nah, we don't need a 35mm stanchion Mattoc, it can stay @34, good seal avaibility etc. and it doesn't have to be burly enough to compete with a lyric, we have the Mezzer for that, Mattoc competes with Pikes, fox 34 and the like, it could go down to 150mm max though, as the Mezzera covers larger travels well, there is no need for this much overlap.
> Manitou doesn't have a chance with SRAM or Fox marketing wise, so I don't see them getting any large OEM contracts just yet anyway, they need to gain more attention and market first, Fox and RS are recognisable just by the matter of being everywhere, most people won't want "some Manipoo" on their shiny new bike.
> Nad don't mention weight dude, the Mezzera is what? Whole 20g heavier than the mattoc 🤣 bruh, even if they optimiser the weight, I cannot imagine getting more than 100g less without major construction compromises (say Fox Stepcast for example), most people these days care more about performance than a literal couple of grams these days fortunately, so weight isn't really an issue for trail forks.


Keep in mind, it is not just marketing. Sram sells entire packages to manufacturers, suspension, drivetrain, even seatposts, bars and stems. Fox is tied in with Shimano and owns Race Face, so has the same ability. This leaves every else out in the cold.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Stiffness is relevant for both weight and travel. Travel is about leverage, weight is about force. Simplified, the product of those is what the longitudinal stiffness is resisting. I don't know at what travel and wheel size you're running your Mezzer but if it's 140-160mm, chances are at 55kg, a 35mm Mattoc would've been plenty.

Mezzer for 140-180mm
Mattoc for 120-150mm (160 for 27.5 and lighter riders).

That would seem to make perfect sense. Almost no one is going to put a 34mm "trail" fork on something like a Hightower. A lighter rider could consider a 35mm 150mm Mattoc and would be perfectly happy with it.

I think Hayes is working hard to getting the whole system for bikes complete, but as you say, people just want RS or Fox because they are the best known and got the strongest image. The more reason to get each product right.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Cary said:


> Keep in mind, it is not just marketing. Sram sells entire packages to manufacturers, suspension, drivetrain, even seatposts, bars and stems. Fox is tied in with Shimano and owns Race Face, so has the same ability. This leaves every else out in the cold.


yes, that's what I mean, just didn't have the proper words to say it 😅


CS645 said:


> Stiffness is relevant for both weight and travel. Travel is about leverage, weight is about force. Simplified, the product of those is what the longitudinal stiffness is resisting. I don't know at what travel and wheel size you're running your Mezzer but if it's 140-160mm, chances are at 55kg, a 35mm Mattoc would've been plenty.


Actually, a 34 170 mattoc would be plenty if it existed, well, apparently it does (which I didn't know before), but unfortunately I have fallen to the "newer is better" sickness so I needed the Mezzer, I also got a good deal for it (same price as a Mattoc) so couldn't pass it up, there are a few worthwhile upgrades in the mezzer, apart from the chassis itself.

I've been riding the Mattoc for 3 years now and I really love it, but it does have some noticeably more striction than the competition, might be a bit tightish bushings, or the design itself, either way the Mezzer is on par with everyone else, plus redesigned, upgraded air spring.

Stanchion diameter is really the least important thing in a single crown fork, and arguably in a dual crown even more, since I don't see anyone complaining about Boxxer 35 stiffness, with single crown the only thing you gain from larger tubes (stiffness, or lack there of, really mostly comes from the crown interface itself, the steerer tube and the crown are the weak points) is potentially less bushing binding and more space to put stuff inside (up till now only Fox utilized this advantage in their air spring design) and maybe less friction (lower spring pressure means you can use less seal crush)
All of those can be somewhat important if utilized correctly, but imo not game changers.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> yes, that's what I mean, just didn't have the proper words to say it 😅
> 
> Actually, a 34 170 mattoc would be plenty if it existed, well, apparently it does (which I didn't know before), but unfortunately I have fallen to the "newer is better" sickness so I needed the Mezzer, I also got a good deal for it (same price as a Mattoc) so couldn't pass it up, there are a few worthwhile upgrades in the mezzer, apart from the chassis itself.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right. Dougal has argued the same in the past. Problem is, being right doesn't sell anything. People perceive a 34mm fork as a trail fork, too noodly for an all-mountain. Not necessarily true, but that's how people see it.

Btw, I moved from a Mattoc to a Mezzer as well (we had three Marttocs in the household, equal number McLeods and have got a whole bunch of friends now on Manitou suspension). Wanted the expert, but after months of waiting, expecting price hikes and bike boxes blocking the garage, I finally fumbled and bought the last pro I could find.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

In the current situation it doesn't really matter "what the public thinks" because the public thinks some Manipoo is not worth their attention anyway, and those who "risk" to try are often put off by either a single manufacturing defect or the need to put more effort into setup


Spoiler



(there were a couple of people like that in this thread, and I know a couple of people like that myself, they are not happy with the big 2 for whatever reason, they try something else, but they are just looking for any excuse to go back to what they know, even though they weren't happy with it to begin with)


, and those who make an educated choice to go for either of the smaller aftermarket options, aren't really bothered about "what the public thinks" cause the public thinks that there is nothing better than a rock shox or the newest fox because they don't hurt when driving over roots like the older ones used to, or they just don't care, it's what came on their bike and it's good enough.
Let's be honest, people like us who have the will or feel the need to do proper research are few in-between, most people just believe what the marketing material says, or just don't ride hard or often enough to really benefit from the differences anyway, and often even if they aren't happy with the performance, they just convince themselves they are wrong, because how could a bike that cost half a years salary be anything less than what they desire.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

As someone who has had 6 Mattocs/Magnums and still has 3, I have some experience with them. At 200 pounds I found the Mattoc set at 160mm and 27.5 to be getting a bit flexy. At 120mm for 29”, no flex, no matter how hard they are pushed. At the time the Mattoc was released, the competition was the Pike, Lyrik, Fox 36, and about a year later DVO Diamond (35mm). Since then 29” has come to dominate, which increases axle to crown by 20mm over 27.5 and 30mm over 26”, so you end up with the same length stanchions for a 170 mm 26”, 160mm 27.5, and 140 mm 29”. This is one reason we are seeing larger stanchion long travel forks (marketing being a big other factor, bigger =better).

The good news is that Manitou did release the Mezzer giving a proper and adequately stiff 140-180 29” fork. They have the R7 for 100-120mm. This leaves room for the new Mattoc to slide in as a 120-150 mm 29” trail fork, whether it is 34, 35, or 36mm.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Cary said:


> The good news is that Manitou did release the Mezzer giving a proper and adequately stiff 140-180 29” fork. They have the R7 for 100-120mm. This leaves room for the new Mattoc to slide in as a 120-150 mm 29” trail fork, whether it is 34, 35, or 36mm.


^^^This.^^^

And it is coming. I'm hopeful that the new, lighter, stiffer Mattoc (whether 34, 35, 36 or whatever stanchion) is at least available for display at Sea Otter in April. We should see it for this model year, anyway. I'd personally like to see them drop around 300g or more from the Mattoc, and don't see why they couldn't considering how much more capable the Mezzer is at the same weight. Dropping those 300g would put it around the same weight as a Fox 34. Currently the Mattoc is heavier than a Fox 36.

Self quote from my conversation with Manitou at Sea Otter last fall below.


rton20s said:


> I talked to one of the guys at the Manitou booth at Sea Otter for a while because I have been considering getting either the Mattoc or Mezzer @ 130-140 on a Ripley. Other than the 1g weight penalty and being "off the charts" at 130, I see no reason to get the current Mattoc over the Mezzer for my needs. I was told that they are not planning any more runs of the current Mattoc because they are in the process of bringing out a replacement model next year.
> 
> There was nothing really official beyond that. Reading between the lines, they'll be taking what they've learned with their more recent redesigns and applying it to the new Mattoc (lighter, stiffer, etc.). I'm hopeful they'll at least have a demo model and more detailed information on the new fork at Sea Otter in the spring.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I wouldn't want a 1500g 29er 150mm fork. Stiffness being one concern I'm personally not worried about, but too little weight generally means creaking CSUs etc.
Stop being so obsessed about weight people, it doesn't matter one bit when you're not racing XC competitively.
1800g (current standard mattoc) is well light enough for a 150mm trail fork, whatever the stanchion size is. (and Fox 34 is around this ballpark too, don't know where you took the "heavier than a 36 from)


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

I just want more travel and support for larger diameter 29x3.25" tires -- don't really care if that comes from an updated longer travel 29+ Mattoc or a Mezzer that supports larger tires (current spec only allows up to 74mm)


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Plus tires are sort of dead dude 😜 over 3" tires don't make much sense for most usecases, aspecially when talking 29" already.
They came, everyone rode them, realised more isn't necessarily better above a certain point, and they went away.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

piciu256 said:


> I wouldn't want a 1500g 29er 150mm fork. Stiffness being one concern I'm personally not worried about, but too little weight generally means creaking CSUs etc.
> Stop being so obsessed about weight people, it doesn't matter one bit when you're not racing XC competitively.
> 1800g (current standard mattoc) is well light enough for a 150mm trail fork, whatever the stanchion size is. (and Fox 34 is around this ballpark too, don't know where you took the "heavier than a 36 from)


If this was in response to me, I'm far from a weight weenie and I never suggested a 1500g fork. At least that wasn't my intention. What I was suggesting is that the Mattoc Pro and the Mezzer Pro shouldn't weigh within 1g of each other! (2032g vs 2033g for 29" model.) That was what I found when I began shopping for a 140mm travel option for my Ripley AF. Based on my discussion with the Hayes rep at Sea Otter, I am fully confident that the upcoming Mattoc will, in fact, be lighter. It would only make sense given the overlap between the current Mezzer/Mattoc lineups and the technology advancements Manitou has made since the current Mattoc was developed. Why buy a current Mattoc (if you could even find one) in 29/140 configuration when the newer, stiffer Mezzer without a weight penalty?

Also, my weight comparisons were specifically against the factory level Fox forks as those are around the same price as Pro Mezzers and Mattocs. I currently have a Fox 34 Performance that is fine at 130mm, but I have seen a lot of feedback that if you want to go to 140 on a Fox you should go to a 36 as the 34 gets noodly. Especially if you are a heavy or hard rider. In the end, internet debates on the merit of a few grams for a fork not available to the public are pointless.😁 I think the bottom line is, we're all excited to see what the new Mattoc is when Manitou finally drops it. 🤜🤛


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Plus tires are sort of dead dude 😜 over 3" tires don't make much sense for most usecases, aspecially when talking 29" already.
> They came, everyone rode them, realised more isn't necessarily better above a certain point, and they went away.


It's not so much the width, but the diameter -- 29x3.25" is roughly 30.75" in diameter, so an even bigger jump than going from 26" to 27.5" or from 27.5" to 29".

29+ is about the best that we've got at the moment without going to fatbikes or waiting for someone to start pushing 32" or 36" as a standard.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Please tell me what do you need that for, I'm genuinely curious


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Please tell me what do you need that for, I'm genuinely curious


Because it's fun?

Among other things, I like to see what's the worst possible line I can take and plow my way up rooty climbs like a monster truck.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Get an ebike then, don't see how a big ass wheel helps here much, a 2.6 tire with low enough pressure would achieve a better outcome, and handle better on downhills.
Also, mandatory "learn how to ride properly, instead of relying on plowing through" 😜


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> Get an ebike then, don't see how a big ass wheel helps here much, a 2.6 tire with low enough pressure would achieve a better outcome, and handle better on downhills.
> Also, mandatory "learn how to ride properly, instead of relying on plowing through" 😜


ebikes are currently banned on most of the trails around here in SE Michigan (I know of only 1 local trail where they're allowed)

29x3.25 works pretty well at 8-9psi and feels close to rock hard when you get up around 11-12psi -- not sure how well I'd trust a 2.6" tire down that low.

Note that the goal of the activity was to find the worst possible lines -- you can't find the worst line without first understanding what is and isn't a "good" line.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

TimTucker said:


> I just want more travel and support for larger diameter 29x3.25" tires -- don't really care if that comes from an updated longer travel 29+ Mattoc or a Mezzer that supports larger tires (current spec only allows up to 74mm)


You need a Mastodon: Manitou Mastodon Pro STD-EXT Tapered Steerer 80-150-170 mm Matte Black | Shockcraft

Can do up to 796mm (31.3") tyres safely. When you've got the appropriate spacers installed inside.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

*Had considered the 150mm Mastadon EXT but would need to rebuild the front wheel on a new hub.*


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## ghughes.hesinc (Jun 10, 2009)

piciu256 said:


> Get an ebike then, don't see how a big ass wheel helps here much, a 2.6 tire with low enough pressure would achieve a better outcome, and handle better on downhills.
> Also, mandatory "learn how to ride properly, instead of relying on plowing through"


You don’t like plus tires, he does. Get over it and stop insulting the guy’s riding.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My goal was not to insult him, most people (me included) would greatly benefit from learning a couple of basic trial skills for climbing technical lines (or even basic weight transfer really, most people I see riding just mindlessly mash on the pedals), anyway, he has very particular needs, the Mastodon or similar fork seems to be the only logical option, I don't see Manitou increasing the axle to crown height of their next fork even more just to fit a rarely used tire combo, the Mezzer already has huge tire clearance and can fit as big of a trail/ neduro tire as anyone would ever need, you want bigger, need to go for a fatbike fork, the normal products are always aimed for the general riding, for special needs there are special products.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Only downside to reducing travel with the pump trick is it's hard to do the same height twice.


What helps for me (probably pretty obvious) is to use the spacers to set it to the max you will use. That means you'll have the long end 100% right all the time and the shorter end much easier to guestimate.

When the new Mezzer came in (which I'm going to use at 150 and 160mm), the first thing I did was open it up and use the spacers to reduce it from 180 to 160mm (and check oil leves in the lowers, which had plenty). That way I'm always on 160mm and 150mm is easy enough to guess, above 160mm I was never going to use. If you leave it at 180mm, you always need a ruler to set it correctly.

One if the many reasons I wanted a Manitou again on the new bike.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Guys, the footnut at the bottom of damper side, should it be flush against the damper rod? Or is a little gap normal? I'm scared to tighten it anymore and mess up the threads...


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

It goes all they way down, but it should go there by hand, only tight once it bottoms out, if you disassembled it, make sure you out the rebound adjuster rod on properly.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Thanks.

The rebound adjuster underneath the footnut, if it popped out a little bit while assembling, how do I know that it's seated properly when reassembling? I have a feeling the footnut is not seating smoothly by hand because of the adjuster....


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just put it so that the adjuster goes inside the rod, spinning the adjuster around should be enough to do the trick really.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

thank you so much my friend, this thread is incredibly helpful!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes make sure the adjuster rod is threaded down in before the foot will screw home.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Cary said:


> As someone who has had 6 Mattocs/Magnums and still has 3, I have some experience with them. At 200 pounds I found the Mattoc set at 160mm and 27.5 to be getting a bit flexy. At 120mm for 29”, no flex, no matter how hard they are pushed. At the time the Mattoc was released, the competition was the Pike, Lyrik, Fox 36, and about a year later DVO Diamond (35mm). Since then 29” has come to dominate, which increases axle to crown by 20mm over 27.5 and 30mm over 26”, so you end up with the same length stanchions for a 170 mm 26”, 160mm 27.5, and 140 mm 29”. This is one reason we are seeing larger stanchion long travel forks (marketing being a big other factor, bigger =better).
> 
> The good news is that Manitou did release the Mezzer giving a proper and adequately stiff 140-180 29” fork. They have the R7 for 100-120mm. This leaves room for the new Mattoc to slide in as a 120-150 mm 29” trail fork, whether it is 34, 35, or 36mm.





rton20s said:


> ^^^This.^^^
> 
> And it is coming. I'm hopeful that the new, lighter, stiffer Mattoc (whether 34, 35, 36 or whatever stanchion) is at least available for display at Sea Otter in April. We should see it for this model year, anyway. I'd personally like to see them drop around 300g or more from the Mattoc, and don't see why they couldn't considering how much more capable the Mezzer is at the same weight. Dropping those 300g would put it around the same weight as a Fox 34. Currently the Mattoc is heavier than a Fox 36.
> 
> Self quote from my conversation with Manitou at Sea Otter last fall below.


Agreed and hope we see something along those lines. The below table I think shows a technically feasible and commercially smart positioning (just focussing on 29 here for a moment). The stiffness is a simplified estimate.











Someone (or a product manager) can save quite a bit of weight and/or cost compared to a Lyrik or Fox 36. You gain quite a bit of stiffness compared to a Pike and even more to a Fox 34 for a very small weight penalty.

Target groups:

Average ride looking for a 130-150mm 29 fork (140-160 for 27.5).
Light/female rider looking for a 140-160mm fork, where the Mezzer is counter-productively stiff and weight is a small but unnecessary penalty.
Heavy rider looking for a burly 120-140mm 29 fork (130-150 for 27.5)


A light rider could put this on his Ripmo, a heavier one could put it on his Ripley and have a far more suitable fork than a Fox 34. Almost every trail to all-mountain bike would be well equipped with such a fork. Huge market.

I hope we see something along those lines.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Guys, should the damper side cap have a O-ring? I find it strange that it doesn't. Is it beneficial to add one?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Think about it for a second and you'll know that it doesn't need one there.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

ya thats what I thought, that section doesn't hold any amount of oil. Thanks!


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## 50wheeler (Nov 20, 2021)

New Mattoc 29+ 120mm VTT owner here. Reading about VTT shim stack tuning, seems there are four levels of compression tuning that Manitou lists in the VTT tuning guide. Factory setting is firm, I would like to change to the extra firm stack. Looks like I need to add an 8x20x0.20 shim in the high speed position, and replace another shim to 8x17.5x0.20 in the platform stack. If anyone has done this please comment on effectiveness of change, where to buy these shims and difficulty of doing it. I've searched and found very little info.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Ok friends I am having a minor dilemma with my damper...Mattoc Pro Boost with MC^2...

I filled it with oil, cycled the damper shaft multiple times, set oil height to 75mm, all good......

Installed the damper cartridge, went in smoothly....( I should add when I removed it, I wrapped it in blue shop towel and set it aside untouched until time for reassembly)

Installed all the knobs correctly with lock nut and rubber washers....

Now, on certain knob settings, the HSC and HBO "pop up" when the damper shaft is cycled. If I keep the damper shaft in the compressed position, I can press the knobs back down, but they spring back up. As you can see in the pic, the ball bearings are visible and look like they're about to fall out.

Is this normal? I definitely don't remember this happening before I serviced the fork.

















edit: I should add that the damper works properly otherwise, and the knobs function as they should.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Not sure if this is your issue, but I've always serviced my mattoc pro to oil @77mm in the damper. I think the expert model is 75mm


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Ok friends I am having a minor dilemma with my damper...Mattoc Pro Boost with MC^2...
> 
> I filled it with oil, cycled the damper shaft multiple times, set oil height to 75mm, all good......
> 
> ...


There is a retaining locknut and spacer under the knobs. Check those. Finger tight.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

I've assembled it properly, the way it came out. The HBO and HSC are still popping up, but it seems to be working. I am going to leave it as is and see if it works properly. Currently its -30c outside so I won't be able to test it anytime soon.

Stay safe y'all


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

@Fr34k2h0w I know, a late reply, but you're missing the spacer under the knobs, so you're unable to tighten the nut properly (nothing to tighten against)


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## kazno (Feb 12, 2020)

Hi folks,
I am new to Manipoo, just took off the lower leg, to check the real travel of my new fork, because the seller informed it is a 130mm travel fork, in fact is a 100mm.

just informed from this thread, that Magnum has more stanchion than the designated travel by design, and also you folks help me to put it back in one piece in the correct way, thanks!


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

I believe you can extend it to 120mm, as for putting back together, just don't ever tighten anything and you'll be golden, it's really straight forward.


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## kazno (Feb 12, 2020)

Honestly, that is my question, could the 100mm Magnum extended to whatever? 120 would be enough. Since there is hardly relax frame with 100mm travel, most of them are race machine.

Here is the air shaft, and confirmed it is the shorter Magnum.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Look inside the air chamber for travel spacers


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## kazno (Feb 12, 2020)

piciu256 said:


> Look inside the air chamber for travel spacers


i think there is no spacer left, if there any, the shaft on the rebound side will not long enough (i have pulled top out the damper side, and the max is 100). what if i take off the white spacer on the lower? what will happen when the fork bottom out?


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Use your imagination, it won't be pretty (wheel into the crown), plus I'm pretty sure the rebound and compression assemblies will collide.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

kazno said:


> Honestly, that is my question, could the 100mm Magnum extended to whatever? 120 would be enough. Since there is hardly relax frame with 100mm travel, most of them are race machine.
> 
> Here is the air shaft, and confirmed it is the shorter Magnum.
> View attachment 1970782


It could be an OEM version. They would use the shortest stanchions they could. Saved weight and cost. You would need longer stanchions and shorter bottom-out spacers to get more travel. Possibly also a longer rebound cartridge tube.


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## GatorXman (Jun 23, 2014)

Any updates on when we can expect the updated version? I moved my Mezzer of my Ripley and have a Fox 36 that I can't find the sweet spot on. Want to replace it with a Mattoc.


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## Abunchahicks (Mar 12, 2019)

GatorXman said:


> Any updates on when we can expect the updated version? I moved my Mezzer of my Ripley and have a Fox 36 that I can't find the sweet spot on. Want to replace it with a Mattoc.


I’m hoping for an updated version as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GatorXman said:


> Any updates on when we can expect the updated version? I moved my Mezzer of my Ripley and have a Fox 36 that I can't find the sweet spot on. Want to replace it with a Mattoc.


Nope, but I'll let you guys know as soon as I'm able.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Nope, but I'll let you guys know as soon as I'm able.


I still have my fingers crossed for more info at Sea Otter in April.


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## gvcampher161 (11 mo ago)

Is there any difference between the 2018 Mattoc Pro to now? Other than decals? 

I see the older forks also have the Dorado spring and IRT. There's a nearly new 2018 for a good price that I'm interested in.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

If there is any, definitely not worth paying more for it imo 
If it has IRT included, then it's the newest build for stuff that matters afaik (low friction seals and IRT)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

gvcampher161 said:


> Is there any difference between the 2018 Mattoc Pro to now? Other than decals?
> 
> I see the older forks also have the Dorado spring and IRT. There's a nearly new 2018 for a good price that I'm interested in.


They changed the knobs to look more like the VTT ones and changed the stanchion top threads to finer. I think that's about it.


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## Thediesel233 (10 mo ago)

Can anyone point me in the direction for a Mattoc IRT air pressure calculator? The excel spreadsheet in the Mezzer thread is awesome, is there one for the Mattoc? 

Manitou doesn't provide any IRT setup guides for 130mm Mattoc. Seems they only provide suggested air pressure for 140mm+ IRT Mattocs. 

165lbs- 130mm Mattoc pro on a trail bike.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Thediesel233 said:


> Can anyone point me in the direction for a Mattoc IRT air pressure calculator? The excel spreadsheet in the Mezzer thread is awesome, is there one for the Mattoc?
> 
> Manitou doesn't provide any IRT setup guides for 130mm Mattoc. Seems they only provide suggested air pressure for 140mm+ IRT Mattocs.
> 
> 165lbs- 130mm Mattoc pro on a trail bike.


There isn't one. Go ratio of 2 for hard riding and 1.5 for sedate riding. The Mattoc is less progressive than the Mezzer so runs a higher ratio to get the same feel.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Is this thread still on?

Just picked up a used Pro, build date 2017. Low speed compression doesn't seem to have much effect when I'm just squeezing it. Checked the oil level, it's good. Is the effect too subtle to feel, or is something wrong?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

phantoj said:


> Is this thread still on?
> 
> Just picked up a used Pro, build date 2017. Low speed compression doesn't seem to have much effect when I'm just squeezing it. Checked the oil level, it's good. Is the effect too subtle to feel, or is something wrong?


Parking lot test / squeezing you won't feel much. Go take it on trail. Make change retry same section. Make another retry section. That's when you will feel the difference.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

OK, I won't do anything drastic yet. I have to convert from an Overdrive 2 steerer, so it will take a bit to get the fork installed.


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## neb (Aug 12, 2008)

phantoj said:


> Is this thread still on?
> 
> Just picked up a used Pro, build date 2017. Low speed compression doesn't seem to have much effect when I'm just squeezing it. Checked the oil level, it's good. Is the effect too subtle to feel, or is something wrong?


With high speed adjustment open, the low speed adjustment does very little, try closing the high speed fully, then trying the low speed. It should be very obvious, even in the parking lot.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

neb said:


> With high speed adjustment open, the low speed adjustment does very little, try closing the high speed fully, then trying the low speed. It should be very obvious, even in the parking lot.


Here is a more complete story:

Got the fork yesterday, was squishing around on it and compression didn't seem to do anything. Even with LSC and HSC closed up - and HBO for good measure. Pulled the compression damper and the oil looked a little low, so I added some "85-150" 5W Maxima to get it about 3" (76mm) from the top.

Put it back together and it still didn't seem like compression was doing anything. But then, I read this post and decided to try to close both HSC and LSC. That caused a noticeable "platform" effect. So looks like my fork is working OK, thanks for the help.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Hi
Air seems to be losing air, or air leaking from main chamber to negative chamber.

Is this something a rebuild kit with all the new O rings can address?

2nd question, the threads on the foot seem to be stripping making it harder to thread a shock pump on. From what I've seen a shaft clamp is needed to put a new foot on. 

Currently, I'm leaning to shipping it to NZ for rebuild. Any suggestions in US who can do this level of service to save on international shipping?
thanks


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Hi
> Air seems to be losing air, or air leaking from main chamber to negative chamber.
> 
> Is this something a rebuild kit with all the new O rings can address?
> ...


Why wouldn't you send it to Manitou in the us ?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Next question: can the HBO be felt in a "parking lot" situation? I tried letting the air out of my fork and then trying to slam it but even with the HBO fully closed, it feels like a hard stop at the end of travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phantoj said:


> Next question: can the HBO be felt in a "parking lot" situation? I tried letting the air out of my fork and then trying to slam it but even with the HBO fully closed, it feels like a hard stop at the end of travel.


HBO is speed sensitive and pretty much invisible. So a slow compression that'll just touch the bumpers you won't really notice. A hard hit it'll suck the life from it before a hard hit.

You should be able to push the fork all the way to the bumpers easily with the pump attached. If you can't then oil height is too high.


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

I've manage to get my hands on a mattoc 2 pro 27.5 that's had a dougal special on it (IRT, burnished bushings, o-ring mods, high flow piston).

I've adjusted it to 160mm so it's essentially had a lowers service and appeared to be working all correctly. It feels really nice on the bike (Ibis HD3) but there are some slight differences to the other forks I've had in the past (only Fox and Rockshox).

I weigh 77 kg (170 lbs) and I've set the main chamber to 60 psi and the high to 110 psi. This only gets me 15-20% sag though feels about right when riding (maybe even a bit soft). Is it normal to expect sag to be less considering I've got the IRT and practically that means having a smaller air chamber (until you get deeper into the travel)? It feels like it dives a little bit too much though I already have the LSC at fully closed. Would increasing the high pressure chamber help out a bit with this?

Also surprising to me is that I'm only getting about 130mm of travel out of the forks (HBO is fully open) where as with other bikes with a RS Pike or Fox 36 I can quite easily get 150mm and feel myself bottoming out occasionally. I'm not complaining as I feel really comfortable with the forks, it's not like I feel like I'm hitting a progression wall like a bike stuffed full of tokens. Should I be trying to chase out some other adjustments that might get me using a bit more of the available travel?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm a Mattoc newb, but:

1. You are keeping the fork extended while you remove the shock pump, right?

2. LSC and HSC seem to work together, if you don't have much HSC dialed in, LSC won't do much either (the HSC shims will just fly open without much effort).

3. People on here seem to be a lot happier with pressures much lower than the Manitou recommendations.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

meschenbruch said:


> I've manage to get my hands on a mattoc 2 pro 27.5 that's had a dougal special on it (IRT, burnished bushings, o-ring mods, high flow piston).
> 
> I've adjusted it to 160mm so it's essentially had a lowers service and appeared to be working all correctly. It feels really nice on the bike (Ibis HD3) but there are some slight differences to the other forks I've had in the past (only Fox and Rockshox).
> 
> ...


That's a whole heap of pressure. Your spring-rate is probably around 55-60lb-in. Which is what I would give 90kg E-bike riders.
Your feeling of excessive dive is because you're starting so high you have further to fall. 

First step is check your damper still has full stroke. They do ingest air and increase oil volume, but that's slow with the high flow piston and o-ring seals.
Second step is a more suitable air pressure. Try 40-80psi. Try 35-90psi.
Don't be scared of using full travel.


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

Dougal said:


> That's a whole heap of pressure. Your spring-rate is probably around 55-60lb-in. Which is what I would give 90kg E-bike riders.
> Your feeling of excessive dive is because you're starting so high you have further to fall.
> 
> First step is check your damper still has full stroke. They do ingest air and increase oil volume, but that's slow with the high flow piston and o-ring seals.
> ...


Oh i didn't realise that was high pressure. I was just going off the mattoc irt setup guide. I'll try with the lower pressures. 

This was the table I've been referencing.











If checking the damper for full stroke can be done but just full travel with the no air in the spring then that's all ok. If there's air ingestion is there a lock of sorts near full travel?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

meschenbruch said:


> Oh i didn't realise that was high pressure. I was just going off the mattoc irt setup guide. I'll try with the lower pressures.
> 
> This was the table I've been referencing.
> View attachment 1978184
> ...


Yeah the stock air pressure guides are high. I run more damping and less spring-rate than those. I am your weight and ran 40/60 for trail riding and 40/80 for park. I ran 35/90 for a while and liked that too. Now I've got a computerised spring tester and can test a whole heap of different pressure splits more easily than riding them.

If the damper oil has foamed up you won't be able to fully compress the fork. Hook the pump on to connect the chambers and you should be able to fully stroke it with maybe 20kg force.


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Hello

I have a little issue with my mattoc. The pressure in the main air spring goes up. I keep bleeding air with shockpump.
The irt pressure stays good. Seal head problem? 
Thanks.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Wait, from what you said it sounds like you have a perpetuum mobile 😅 do I understand correctly, that the pressure increases but nowhere is lost?


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

Yes, that is what I'm saying.....
It happens consistently since a few rides.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You have to be measuring something not properly, otherwise go monetize the thing!


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

I visited the Manitou booth multiple times at Sea Otter last week. They were friendly and I scored some cool merch, including JUNIT shirts for the kids. The "TRAIL" category in their booth only had wheels and no fork. No Mattoc to be found anywhere. They were pretty tight lipped about what was going on with the Mattoc. All I really got was that they didn't have a Mattoc to display. When I asked about a new model to replace the current the response was, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

When I asked about my specific use case, the recommendation was use an R7 up to 130mm and a Mezzer for 140mm and up. I think there might have been some confusion because the R7 only goes up to 120mm of travel. I want a 29" fork I can use at 130 or 140. The current Mattoc is the only Manitou that meets those criteria and is pretty much unavailable right now. Not to mention, it is as heavy as the Mezzer. For now, I'll be patient and maybe throw a 140mm air shaft assembly in my 34 to try out.


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## Abunchahicks (Mar 12, 2019)

rton20s said:


> I visited the Manitou booth multiple times at Sea Otter last week. They were friendly and I scored some cool merch, including JUNIT shirts for the kids. The "TRAIL" category in their booth only had wheels and no fork. No Mattoc to be found anywhere. They were pretty tight lipped about what was going on with the Mattoc. All I really got was that they didn't have a Mattoc to display. When I asked about a new model to replace the current the response was, "I have no idea what you're talking about."
> 
> When I asked about my specific use case, the recommendation was use an R7 up to 130mm and a Mezzer for 140mm and up. I think there might have been some confusion because the R7 only goes up to 120mm of travel. I want a 29" fork I can use at 130 or 140. The current Mattoc is the only Manitou that meets those criteria and is pretty much unavailable right now. Not to mention, it is as heavy as the Mezzer. For now, I'll be patient and maybe throw a 140mm air shaft assembly in my 34 to try out.


I was really hoping for an updated Mattoc to show up at Sea Otter as well. There’s no way my fat ass is running an R7. And the current Mattoc is hard to find in 29” and heavy in its class. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

R7 at 130 would likely be noodley. 

Sounds to me like a new Mattoc is incoming, but how long we wait is anyone's guess.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dougal said:


> If you had play in the top-right bushing, that has been sorted at production some time ago.
> But we've still got to mop up the forks out there with an issue. It only affects the 27" boost models and not all of them.


Is this correct that the play in the top right bushing only affected boost models? I have a non-boost 27.5 that I picked up used a few weeks ago and I feel like a get some knocking on light trail chatter. But I can't feel anything when I pull/push on the fork crown.

I was thinking it could be headset related (looks like the previous owner undersized the steerer slightly) but I believe I can feel the same knocking when I push on the fork with it removed from the bike.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phantoj said:


> Is this correct that the play in the top right bushing only affected boost models? I have a non-boost 27.5 that I picked up used a few weeks ago and I feel like a get some knocking on light trail chatter. But I can't feel anything when I pull/push on the fork crown.
> 
> I was thinking it could be headset related (looks like the previous owner undersized the steerer slightly) but I believe I can feel the same knocking when I push on the fork with it removed from the bike.


What damper is in your non-boost?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dougal said:


> What damper is in your non-boost?


I know what you're thinking, but it's a Pro.

What it _feels_ to me is as if something were just a little loose on the rebound damper side. But I've had it apart and I didn't find anything unusual inside.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phantoj said:


> I know what you're thinking, but it's a Pro.
> 
> What it _feels_ to me is as if something were just a little loose on the rebound damper side. But I've had it apart and I didn't find anything unusual inside.


Check the rebound check shims. If they get hammered flat it can make the rebound check shim knock.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Check the rebound check shims. If they get hammered flat it can make the rebound check shim knock.


So the shim in the yellow box is supposed to be conical? Or wavy? This a picture from earlier in the thread, not my fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phantoj said:


> So the shim in the yellow box is supposed to be conical? Or wavy? This a picture from earlier in the thread, not my fork.


Supposed to be folded into a wave shape. Two of them. It needs ~0.5mm preload when assembled.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Supposed to be folded into a wave shape. Two of them. It needs ~0.5mm preload when assembled.


Thanks! I'll check it. It makes sense in my mind that it would match with what I'm feeling.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

It looked like my spring washers were just barely touching the shim (no preload), so I bent on them a bit to get a decent (.1mm-ish) preload. I _think_ it fixed the issue. Need to take it to the trails to be 100% sure. I am maybe a little neurotic about my suspension.

Also I ordered a headset with a split crown race...


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## thova (Aug 12, 2018)

thova said:


> Hello
> 
> I have a little issue with my mattoc. The pressure in the main air spring goes up. I keep bleeding air with shockpump.
> The irt pressure stays good. Seal head problem?
> Thanks.


Turned out the seal in the seal head was worn. It's a 3x10 O-ring replacing the original to prevent the oil migration. Fork is running consistent again😊


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> I found Manitou's Mattoc IRT settings didn't work. So I came up with my own scheme.
> 
> Simply a 1.5x ratio for the most linear and supportive, 2x ratio for aggressive riding (more bottom out protection) and 3x ratio if you want the most supple and progressive setup.
> 
> ...


How are other approaching dialing in settings? Do you pick and IRT pressure, hold that constant, than vary Main spring? Or pick main spring, hold that constant then vary IRT? Or pick a ratio to hold constant and then vary main and IRT together?

Does the frequency tuning part come before all this which provides a starting point for Main air spring pressure?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Maybe pick a ratio and hold that constant while you vary pressure. (That's kind of what I got from Dougal's post above).

Then if it seems too progressive or not enough, adjust the ratio again and tweak the pressure as needed.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Set main for frequency and then adjust the ratio as you please, I set my pressure by getting a baseline with frequency and then did repeated runs on a section of roots, then a rock garden, of course get a drop or jump in also, to see if it's not too easy to bottom out


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

piciu256 said:


> Set main for frequency and then adjust the ratio as you please, I set my pressure by getting a baseline with frequency and then did repeated runs on a section of roots, then a rock garden, of course get a drop or jump in also, to see if it's not too easy to bottom out


When you set the main for frequency initially, do you pressure the main spring and have 0 in the IRT? Or do you have main=IRT to test frequency?
thanks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Pick a ratio (say 1.5x) and stick with that until you're in the ballpark.


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## KillerKamote (Jul 9, 2019)

not sure if this has been posted somewhere.. but could anyone share the outer diameter size of the 8mm thin wall socket for mattoc?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't really care for the feel of my Mattoc on small chatter at moderate speed. I like the way it eats up bigger hits and the way it handles downhills. But on the small stuff, I feel a kind of looseness, a clunking almost when the fork switches from compression to extension. It feels like there is a little slop in the air spring or maybe just a lot of stiction.

I've tried a bunch of stuff to figure out what's going on. I've taken the fork apart, given everything the Slickoleum treatment and I've got Fox Gold in the lowers.

If I close HSC and LSC to "lock out" the fork, I don't feel it. So that seems to rule out headset, axle, CSU, bushings (?) I can't feel bushing play.

I unscrewed the damper and just rode on the air spring (not much of a ride, just in the yard). I still feel it. So that would seem to rule out the damper and makes me think air spring. But the air spring is so simple, I just can't see anything that could be loose or be causing major stiction. Maybe the fork is fine and I'm just being neurotic and overly sensitive.

It's a Mattoc Pro 27.5 non-boost, I think it's a 2017 model ? I got it second-hand and it looks pretty low miles.

Any thoughts?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

phantoj said:


> I don't really care for the feel of my Mattoc on small chatter at moderate speed. I like the way it eats up bigger hits and the way it handles downhills. But on the small stuff, I feel a kind of looseness, a clunking almost when the fork switches from compression to extension. It feels like there is a little slop in the air spring or maybe just a lot of stiction.
> 
> I've tried a bunch of stuff to figure out what's going on. I've taken the fork apart, given everything the Slickoleum treatment and I've got Fox Gold in the lowers.
> 
> ...


Know anyone who can burnish your bushings? From there see how the air-piston is sliding.
Do you have the later 1-piece seals with foam rings?


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

It's the later 1-piece with foam rings. I don't know anyone locally who burnishes, but I haven't looked, either.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

I really hope there will be a new 150/160mm 29 Mattoc coming up. My wife has a light weight Ripmo built up and it would complement it nicely.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

CS645 said:


> I really hope there will be a new 150/160mm 29 Mattoc coming up. My wife has a light weight Ripmo built up and it would complement it nicely.


Why? Buy her a Mezzer. Current 29" Mattoc is only capable of 100-140mm travel and weighs 2,033g (Pro). The Mezzer Pro can be run 140-180mm and weighs 2,032g. 

I don't see the new Mattoc (whenever it is released) being capable of 150/160mm of travel. Too much overlap with the Mezzer.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Why? Buy her a Mezzer. Current 29" Mattoc is only capable of 100-140mm travel and weighs 2,033g (Pro). The Mezzer Pro can be run 140-180mm and weighs 2,032g.
> 
> I don't see the new Mattoc (whenever it is released) being capable of 150/160mm of travel. Too much overlap with the Mezzer.


The 44mm offset weighs 2077gr. I reckon a Mattoc sufficiently stiff for 150mm (160mm light riders) could be more than 200gr. lighter. She's also going to use it to guide people around the mountain. Including lycra chaps on XC bikes. So she needs a light bike.

I don't think there is too much overlap. If you take Rockshox, you have the ZEB, Lyric, Pike and SID 35. Now Manitou is not rockshox, but I think Manitou could get more sales in the aggresive trail/All-mountain segment if they had a lighter offering that went 150-160mm in 29er. If they release something I would buy it. If not, then I have to choose between the Mezzer and a 150mm airshaft for her Fox 34 29 (which I don't really want to do).


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Why? Buy her a Mezzer. Current 29" Mattoc is only capable of 100-140mm travel and weighs 2,033g (Pro). The Mezzer Pro can be run 140-180mm and weighs 2,032g.
> 
> I don't see the new Mattoc (whenever it is released) being capable of 150/160mm of travel. Too much overlap with the Mezzer.


I'd be interested in trying a longer travel Mezzer, but they don't offer a 29+ option (as they have in the past for the Mattoc and Machete) -- max tire size 74mm without fender.

For larger tires, the Mastodon only gets you to 150mm travel with the compromise of needing a fat-bike hub.
The Dorado get you 200mm travel, but at significantly higher weight with the added compromise of needing a frame that's rated to support a dual crown fork & also not taking a 110x15mm boost hub.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

CS645 said:


> The 44mm offset weighs 2077gr. I reckon a Mattoc sufficiently stiff for 150mm (160mm light riders) could be more than 200gr. lighter. She's also going to use it to guide people around the mountain. Including lycra chaps on XC bikes. So she needs a light bike.
> 
> I don't think there is too much overlap. If you take Rockshox, you have the ZEB, Lyric, Pike and SID 35. Now Manitou is not rockshox, but I think Manitou could get more sales in the aggresive trail/All-mountain segment if they had a lighter offering that went 150-160mm in 29er. If they release something I would buy it. If not, then I have to choose between the Mezzer and a 150mm airshaft for her Fox 34 29 (which I don't really want to do).


Your entire post seems odd to me. Mattoc sufficienctly stiff for 150-160mm of travel? The current model is only available with 140mm of travel in a 29. I would assume Manitou made specific travel lengths available based on safety parameters their engineers were comfortable with. 

You may be using other sources for your weights, but there are the stated weights from the Hayes US site:
Mezzer Pro 29: 2032g
Mezzer Expert 29: 2062g
Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29: 2033g
Mattoc Comp 27.5+/29: 2222g

Based on what is available today, the Mezzer is as light or lighter than the Mattoc, is available in the travel you want, will be stiffer and more capable. Other than cost, I don't know why you wouldn't choose a Mezzer for a 150-160mm fork. If Manitou sticks with 34mm stanchions for the updated Mattoc, I doubt they'll increase the travel. 

As I think you implied, comparison to Rockshox isn't really apples to apples. Rockshox has a much broader product range meant to meet specific price points and criteria. There is a lot of overlap in the Rockshox lineup compared to Manitou. Hayes is a smaller company with a more focused lineup. There is very little overlap. This becomes quickly evident on their website if you use the filters to limit the available options based on your specific criteria (wheel size, travel, steerer type, axle spacing, etc.)

I don't want to assume your wife's weight, but hopefully she is pretty svelte if you're considering a Fox 34 at 150mm. I currently have a 34 at 130mm and have been debating whether or not to try it at 140. I've seen a lot of reports of the fork becoming too "noodly" once you take it to 140+. I'm sure this is very rider and terrain dependent. That is the whole reason I am in this thread. I'm hopeful that a new Mattoc will be released that is based on the Mezzer, but is lighter weight with the same travel specs as the current model.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

Just to add some fire to that debate, 200g less doesn't matter in any case in any shape or form, unless you're racing uphill competitively.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Your entire post seems odd to me. Mattoc sufficienctly stiff for 150-160mm of travel? The current model is only available with 140mm of travel in a 29. I would assume Manitou made specific travel lengths available based on safety parameters their engineers were comfortable with.


The Mattoc previously did not exist in 140mm for 29ers. I forgot the name, but it was previously a 27+/29 fork that went to 120mm, but was later adopted into the Mattoc branding with travel able to go to 140mm. I think that history is part why the 29er Mattoc is so much heavier than the 27 one. I hope with a new Mattoc (hopefully beefed up to allow 150-160mm for lighter riders), it is more designed as one and the 29er weights fall in line a bit more with the 27 models. Also with the Mezzer the 27 and 29 both go to 180mm, yet in the Mattoc there is 20mm difference in max travel.



> You may be using other sources for your weights, but there are the stated weights from the Hayes US site:
> Mezzer Pro 29: 2032g
> Mezzer Expert 29: 2062g
> Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29: 2033g
> Mattoc Comp 27.5+/29: 2222g


Hayes does not quote the 51mm offset version for the weight (anymore), the 44mm offset is slightly heavier at 2.077gr.



> Based on what is available today, the Mezzer is as light or lighter than the Mattoc, is available in the travel you want, will be stiffer and more capable. Other than cost, I don't know why you wouldn't choose a Mezzer for a 150-160mm fork. If Manitou sticks with 34mm stanchions for the updated Mattoc, I doubt they'll increase the travel.


Reasons being:


200-250gr lighter. (Which is what a new Mezzer tech level Mattoc would probably weigh).
Noodley is not good, but being too stuff is not beneficial either.

If you look at it in percentages, if each component of your bike is 10% lighter, a 14kg bike becomes a 12.6kg bike. That does tend to help if you're touring across high mountains (especially when your guiding racy chaps on 10kg XC bikes).



> As I think you implied, comparison to Rockshox isn't really apples to apples. Rockshox has a much broader product range meant to meet specific price points and criteria. There is a lot of overlap in the Rockshox lineup compared to Manitou. Hayes is a smaller company with a more focused lineup. There is very little overlap. This becomes quickly evident on their website if you use the filters to limit the available options based on your specific criteria (wheel size, travel, steerer type, axle spacing, etc.


I'm aware of all of that. I'm not suggesting the same overlap as Fox or RS. Below is a table (for 29ers) that would roughly cover the range from 100 to 180mm with only three models. I think that offers a very reasonable balance between covering all your bases without too much overlap.












> I don't want to assume your wife's weight, but hopefully she is pretty svelte if you're considering a Fox 34 at 150mm. I currently have a 34 at 130mm and have been debating whether or not to try it at 140. I've seen a lot of reports of the fork becoming too "noodly" once you take it to 140+. I'm sure this is very rider and terrain dependent. That is the whole reason I am in this thread. I'm hopeful that a new Mattoc will be released that is based on the Mezzer, but is lighter weight with the same travel specs as the current model.


Yes, hence why I said I don't really want to extend the Fox 34 to 150mm. I'm talking about a possible future version of the Mattoc, possibly in 35mm. Not the current one.


Anyway, I don't want to drag this into the usual internet debate, just trying to explain the reasoning and needs.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

You're too obsessed with weight for sure, definitely saving weight on the whole bike is a worthwhile endeavor, if you're willing to spend a lot just for the sake of that, even if it's only helpful for carrying the thing, but adding weight to one component doesn't automatically make the rest heavier 😜


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

piciu256 said:


> You're too obsessed with weight for sure, definitely saving weight on the whole bike is a worthwhile endeavor, if you're willing to spend a lot just for the sake of that, even if it's only helpful for carrying the thing, but adding weight to one component doesn't automatically make the rest heavier 😜


Not overly obsessed persee. In my opinion building a light bike that is still fit for purpose that doesn't break the bank requires a bit of discipline to buy the right components at the right time and it the meantime enjoy what you ride. Something lighter and less stiff than a Mezzer would be better but as said, if no suitable new Mattoc is launched then it probably end up being the Mezzer expert.

Anyway, to each his own. I don't want to pollute a component thread about whether ones personal preferences are right on not.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I have a Mezzer Pro 170mm 29” and a Mattoc Pro 160 27”, they both ride fine, but I like the feel of the Mattoc best.


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## CS645 (Dec 9, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I have a Mezzer Pro 170mm 29” and a Mattoc Pro 160 27”, they both ride fine, but I like the feel of the Mattoc best.


I had a 1st gen Mattoc (less stiff than gen 2/3) on my 27.5 Trance. It started out at 160mm. I ended up with a 1 degree angleset and running it at 150mm. To me that felt better. Stiffness wise 150mm felt very good and also small bump felt better. Also the geometry worked out better with 150mm and the angleset compared to the 160mm like the Trance SX had from factory.

I now have a Mezzer 29 set internally to 160mm but most of the time use the Dorado trick to run it at 150mm on less demanding local trails.

In general I feel lighter/female riders are being ignored a bit by fork manufacturers because previously available longer version of forks are not offered anymore to make average/heavier riders buy the more suitable stiffer models. I rather see those longer versions still avalable but with better guidance who should and should not buy them.

Anyways, the original Mattoc was launched at eurobike 2013 if I'm not mistaken. Eurobike 2022 starts at July 13th, so perhaps we'll know shortly if there will be a new one and if it will assume the All-mountain role like the original (perhaps with 35mm stanchions) or, with the Mezzer in place, pitched as their trail offering.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

How often do you do full service, including change of all o-rings, etc?

I have a 5.5 year old Magnum that has been regularly serviced - new dust seals, lower leg service, and a couple of times the change of damper fluid. New air piston from Manituo and hiflow piston from Dougal.

But I have never changed any seals. The fork is working fine, but I'm going to do full service soon and was wondering if I should get the full service kit from Manitou and change all the seals. And if yes, are there any instructions? Manitou doesn't show the change of o-rings etc. In their guide.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> How often do you do full service, including change of all o-rings, etc?
> 
> I have a 5.5 year old Magnum that has been regularly serviced - new dust seals, lower leg service, and a couple of times the change of damper fluid. New air piston from Manituo and hiflow piston from Dougal.
> 
> But I have never changed any seals. The fork is working fine, but I'm going to do full service soon and was wondering if I should get the full service kit from Manitou and change all the seals. And if yes, are there any instructions? Manitou doesn't show the change of o-rings etc. In their guide.


If a fork is coming in for service we do all the dynamic seals and all the seals we disturb while getting to those. For my own forks it's generally around the 2 year mark.
Here's our Mattoc/Magnum seal kit, it has a 1:1 scale instruction sheet with all the seal locations: Fork Service Kit for Manitou 34 mm Forks | Shockcraft


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I got the Manitou kit - shipping from Germany was much faster. 

I have a question how to get the IRT apart. I thought that I must remove the bolt on the lower end and then I can remove the piston. I have wooden shaft block for 10mm shaft. I clamp the shaft but the bolt wont open - shaft keeps rotating in the shaft. Is there thread locker on bolt? Do I have to heat it? Or should I use 24mm socket and fix the end-cap? Or is there a possibility that the shaft will break free from end-cap?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Nevermind. Got it open. I wrapped the shaft in thin rubber sheet and then between the shaft clamp. It still needed strong sudden movement to open but it got it open. There was no thread locker.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> I got the Manitou kit - shipping from Germany was much faster.
> 
> I have a question how to get the IRT apart. I thought that I must remove the bolt on the lower end and then I can remove the piston. I have wooden shaft block for 10mm shaft. I clamp the shaft but the bolt wont open - shaft keeps rotating in the shaft. Is there thread locker on bolt? Do I have to heat it? Or should I use 24mm socket and fix the end-cap? Or is there a possibility that the shaft will break free from end-cap?


Just use a 24mm and 12mm sockets. The easy end will undo and let you remove the piston.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Something went wrong with the air valve. The poppet between negative and positive camber does not close. I removed the air piston to install the 10x3 o-ring in part that is in the end of stanchion (how it is called?). There was small spring under the air piston - I reinstalled it. I've removed the air piston before when I replaced it - but everything went smoothly back then. What did I do wrong? How to fix it?

BTW the seal kit page https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/pdfs/Internal Seal Kits/KSI-MAN-MATTOCPRO-INT123 - Rev 0 PUBLIC.PDF says that oil level should be 85mm down at full extension. But Manitou Mattoc Pro guide says it's 75mm https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc...047974373/Mattoc_Pro-Expert_Service_Guide.pdf I've always used 75mm without perceivable problems. Is the 85mm correct?

Edit: And the small rod that sticks out from the air valve rattles - before it was stiff and didn't move. It looks like I messed something up during the reassembly of the air piston.

Edit: Another strange thing. When I remove the lower legs everything seems to work as expected - air spring has proper resistance. When I connect the pump I can move shaft freely. As soon when I reinstall the lower legs I can compress the fork like there is no pressure.

Edit: And I can extend fork so much that the lower bushing disengages! It's Magnum Pro 27,5" 140mm, I'm running it in 140mm setup. It has been flawless so far.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Ok. It was all very logical. Apparently the air piston was stuck in the stanchion and when I screwed the air shaft to lower leg the air shaft untwisted itself from air piston. I'm not sure what was the reason for the piston to get stuck. Do I have to use thread locker on air piston?

When I removed the casting I undid the damper side first and the lower legs flew away with small bang.

Edit: After some pondering I think that the piston got stuck later when it was pushed to far by the air shaft after it was unscrewed. But the primary reason was that the piston was too tight in stanchion - tighter than the thread of the airshaft.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Got it fixed. Searched this thread for "poppet" and found a link to Dorado manual that explained how to mount the air piston. It requires 5Nm and no thread locker. Looks like the fork is ok now.

I checked how easy it is to rotate the air shaft and it was not easy. I didn't torque the air piston first time and when I installed the lower legs the piston got unthreaded little bit - enough to cause the poppet to be incorrectly placed. I removed the lower legs and then the air shaft worked normally - I partially threaded the piston back. I installed lower legs again and this time the air piston unthreaded completely.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

arnea said:


> Something went wrong with the air valve. The poppet between negative and positive camber does not close. I removed the air piston to install the 10x3 o-ring in part that is in the end of stanchion (how it is called?). There was small spring under the air piston - I reinstalled it. I've removed the air piston before when I replaced it - but everything went smoothly back then. What did I do wrong? How to fix it?
> 
> BTW the seal kit page https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/pdfs/Internal Seal Kits/KSI-MAN-MATTOCPRO-INT123 - Rev 0 PUBLIC.PDF says that oil level should be 85mm down at full extension. But Manitou Mattoc Pro guide says it's 75mm https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc...047974373/Mattoc_Pro-Expert_Service_Guide.pdf I've always used 75mm without perceivable problems. Is the 85mm correct?
> 
> ...


Oil height is a typo, I'll get it fixed.
The poppet is adjustable with a 2.5mm hex key inside the air-piston. I set it at 1.3mm when pushed out.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Know anyone who can burnish your bushings? From there see how the air-piston is sliding.
> Do you have the later 1-piece seals with foam rings?


I sent a PM about burnishing and/or resizing the upper bushing.

One thing I'm noticing is that I have a lot more stiction on this fork than other forks I own. And I've had the lowers off fairly recently and given it Slickoleum and Fox Gold. So that makes me think that I don't have bushing looseness but maybe they are too tight.

Is there a good technique for measuring bushing tightness/looseness?


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

How often do you reset your Mattoc air pressures: IRT pressure, main spring pressure, equalize positive and negative air spring with pump attached? Do you do it every ride?

The main air spring pressure seems to get higher if I grab the bike again for another ride later in the day. Part of it might be my garage gets hot. But it just seems that air is bleeding into the main spring and it gets stiffer over time.

I had it rebuilt recently by Manitou factory. It was doing this before I sent it in too, so not sure they addressed the problem. In general it did feel a lot better when I got it back from them whatever they did.

thanks.


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## piciu256 (Feb 15, 2019)

My Mattoc didn't lose air from IRT, even after 2 seasons with the factory seal, but I had to reset the main/ neg chamber just about every big day in the mountains, my fork had a bit of an issue like that, I was never quite able to completely resolve, but it got to a point where it only lost 5mm of travel or so, no biggie.


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## LurkerJono (May 15, 2016)

Hi people,

I'm trying to identify a Mattoc Pro 29+ so I can change the travel from 100mm to 120mm. I have spoken to Hayes and gave them the serial number and they tell me it is this ->

191-34154-A001 MATTOC PRO 29+ BT MBLK 100 1.5T HL BL AM 10/4/2018 

Hayes says this is the manual (2014-2016 mattoc/magnum)-> https://hayesbicycle.zendesk.com/hc...047974373/Mattoc_Pro-Expert_Service_Guide.pdf Based off this manual the fork cannot be changed to 120mm.

When I look at this "Manitou Mattoc Service & Tuning Options | Shockcraft" I come up with the fork being a version 3 fork.

So I also spotted this fork which has the same part number and looks the same as mine but 2017 -> MANITOU MATTOC sold!!

So I'm pretty sure that Hayes is giving me the wrong manual, as 2016 version is different visually to the 2017 and 2016 they were named magnum, NOT mattoc.

I have also managed to find the 2017 pro service guide (https://www.gohl-tech.ch/app/downlo...attoc-Pro-Service-Guide-and-Travel-Change.pdf) Based off this manual the fork can be changed to 120mm.

So I think based on all of that the fork i have is change able from 100mm to 120mm.

So who is correct hayes or me? I would like to know before I ask my shock guy to try and change it.

Thanks

Alec


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

It's a bit hard to read 5576 posts, so I'm here to ask, do anyone knows when Mattoc Pro 29er will be avilable?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

ForMartha said:


> It's a bit hard to read 5576 posts, so I'm here to ask, do anyone knows when Mattoc Pro 29er will be avilable?


No date on availability as yet. Current beat option for a Manitou 29 longer travel is the Mezzer (it's virtually same weight as current spec Mattoc anyway)


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## ForMartha (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm into getting a 120-130mm travel fork and the Mezzer is too heavy for my liking.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

LurkerJono said:


> Hi people,
> 
> I'm trying to identify a Mattoc Pro 29+ so I can change the travel from 100mm to 120mm. I have spoken to Hayes and gave them the serial number and they tell me it is this ->
> 
> ...


Depends entirely on stanchion length. Some forks were built with 20mm shorter stanchions for shorter travel.



ForMartha said:


> It's a bit hard to read 5576 posts, so I'm here to ask, do anyone knows when Mattoc Pro 29er will be avilable?


When the parts shortages all resolve themselves. Sounds like there's a global stanchion shortage at the moment.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I am in the market for a 29x3 compatible fork for my hardtail build, something with shorter travel if possible. 140mm might work, but will likely mess up my geo a bit. What should I be looking for from manitou, and what should I be WAITING for from manitou?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jonshonda said:


> I am in the market for a 29x3 compatible fork for my hardtail build, something with shorter travel if possible. 140mm might work, but will likely mess up my geo a bit. What should I be looking for from manitou, and what should I be WAITING for from manitou?


Dorado might be the only 29x3" Manitou right now.
They had the 27+ and 29+ Machete up until 2020, but I think the 29+ got dropped in the redesign.
Mezzer can officially do 29x2.8" without the mudguard. So whether that works or not depends on actual tyre measurements vs what's written on the side of them.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Dorado might be the only 29x3" Manitou right now.
> They had the 27+ and 29+ Machete up until 2020, but I think the 29+ got dropped in the redesign.
> Mezzer can officially do 29x2.8" without the mudguard. So whether that works or not depends on actual tyre measurements vs what's written on the side of them.


I do have a Mastodon Pro for my fat bike that takes 29+ just fine, and there is a wheelset that just popped up for sale locally from a Jones Plus that has 148/150 hubs. So I might go that route. 

I've read a little on the Dorado (which would be totally overkill for my trails, but not for my mass), and wondering how low I can go w/o compromising the performance of the fork? The frame builder cautioned me to stay close to the 120-130mm range and said 44mm offset is what the frame was designed around.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jonshonda said:


> I do have a Mastodon Pro for my fat bike that takes 29+ just fine, and there is a wheelset that just popped up for sale locally from a Jones Plus that has 148/150 hubs. So I might go that route.
> 
> I've read a little on the Dorado (which would be totally overkill for my trails, but not for my mass), and wondering how low I can go w/o compromising the performance of the fork? The frame builder cautioned me to stay close to the 120-130mm range and said 44mm offset is what the frame was designed around.


I forgot about the Mastodon. That's a great alternative. No problem to space the Dorado down, but they're ~3kg forks.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I forgot about the Mastodon. That's a great alternative. No problem to space the Dorado down, but they're ~3kg forks.


Yeah I might shy away from something that heavy as I am currently enjoying my fat bike in 29x3 mode (I usually think to type 29+, but too many consider 2.6" plus) with a rigid carbon fork. So the front end is very light. But.....I wouldn't mind a really nice short travel fork on the new build. It is superficial, but I never liked how the 29x3" looked in the mastodon, so I am looking at lowering a fox 36 to 100mm.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Hey Dougal, what is your trick for removing the two ball bearings at the bottom of the damper shaft footnut? The ones behind the two springs? I am changing to the 10x3mm Orings...

I have tried a small magnet and tapping the sh*t out of it on my work bench. Nothing.


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## Fr34k2h0w (Feb 1, 2021)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Hey Dougal, what is your trick for removing the two ball bearings at the bottom of the damper shaft footnut? The ones behind the two springs? I am changing to the 10x3mm Orings...
> 
> I have tried a small magnet and tapping the sh*t out of it on my work bench. Nothing.


Nevermind, got them out. You gotta turn the rebound knob a little to take some pressure off them. A little tapping and a magnet and they come right out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> Hey Dougal, what is your trick for removing the two ball bearings at the bottom of the damper shaft footnut? The ones behind the two springs? I am changing to the 10x3mm Orings...
> 
> I have tried a small magnet and tapping the sh*t out of it on my work bench. Nothing.


I leave those intact and take the other end off.


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## LurkerJono (May 15, 2016)

LurkerJono said:


> Hi people,
> 
> I'm trying to identify a Mattoc Pro 29+ so I can change the travel from 100mm to 120mm. I have spoken to Hayes and gave them the serial number and they tell me it is this ->
> 
> ...


Hi People,

So after reading the relpy from Dougal at Shockcraft, I contacted hayes to give me the stanchion lenght for a 120mm travel fork. I then sent the fork to NSD with the info provided. 

The result my "191-34154-A001 MATTOC PRO 29+ BT MBLK 100 1.5T HL BL AM" is now safely 120mm travel. Which matches the 2017-2018 manual.

Thank you everybody


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## Alan1977 (Apr 9, 2021)

jsut moved my mattoc 160's pro onto a new frame, and dropped them down to 150mm
dropped from 43/100? to 35/95 as per dougals suggestion, and dialled ona bit more lsc and hsc and had a bit of a revelation... they feel more like my mezzers now.. firm but not jarring. i can only describe the mattocs as very rattly over rough stuff before, not so much jarring just a lot of vibration.. that seemed to change drastically with the lower pressures nad more damping...


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## Seabass85 (3 mo ago)

I’m looking at a used 2019 Mattoc comp (250 CAD). Other options include a new lyrik select (600+ship tax) or mezzer pro for 850 total.
This will be for a hardtail , Ragley mmmbop (150-160mm).
Intermediate rider always looking for jumps and drops.
It’s the select rally that bad? Is the mezzer pro worth the 3-4 times price.
Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Seabass85 said:


> I’m looking at a used 2019 Mattoc comp (250 CAD). Other options include a new lyrik select (600+ship tax) or mezzer pro for 850 total.
> This will be for a hardtail , Ragley mmmbop (150-160mm).
> Intermediate rider always looking for jumps and drops.
> It’s the select rally that bad? Is the mezzer pro worth the 3-4 times price.
> Thanks


Mattoc Comp punches well above it's weight. IMO it's better than a stock Pike/Lyrik with the proper charger damper. Select isn't nice.
Mezzer Pro is even better than the Mattoc Comp, but not 4x price better. More like 2x price better.


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## Seabass85 (3 mo ago)

Dougal said:


> Mattoc Comp punches well above it's weight. IMO it's better than a stock Pike/Lyrik with the proper charger damper. Select isn't nice.
> Mezzer Pro is even better than the Mattoc Comp, but not 4x price better. More like 2x price better.


Thanks for the quick reply Dougal. I think I’ll give the Mattoc a try. 
Probably a good idea to get a seal kit as I don’t believe it’s gotten one yet. 
Also time to modify a cassette tool. 
thanks again


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

Seabass85 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply Dougal. I think I’ll give the Mattoc a try.
> Probably a good idea to get a seal kit as I don’t believe it’s gotten one yet.
> Also time to modify a cassette tool.
> thanks again


I have a boost mattoc comp on my hardtail and think it's fantastic

Abs damper is amazing once you get a shim stack for you and your riding style, fork can really ride exactly how you want with s little tinkering, so much better then a pike...


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

boostinmini said:


> I have a boost mattoc comp on my hardtail and think it's fantastic
> 
> Abs damper is amazing once you get a shim stack for you and your riding style, fork can really ride exactly how you want with s little tinkering, so much better then a pike...


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## Seabass85 (3 mo ago)

boostinmini said:


> I have a boost mattoc comp on my hardtail and think it's fantastic
> 
> Abs damper is amazing once you get a shim stack for you and your riding style, fork can really ride exactly how you want with s little tinkering, so much better then a pike...


Now I need to go down the shim stack rabbit hole. 
what would the stock configuration be set for weight and style?


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

Hey mattoc exper compression adjust leaking from knobs, any one ever tear one of these apart and reseal it?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

boostinmini said:


> Hey mattoc exper compression adjust leaking from knobs, any one ever tear one of these apart and reseal it?


Yes: Here's most of it apart:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BHlBU0Mj2GC/

They're pretty logical.


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## boostinmini (Jan 29, 2013)

Dougal said:


> Yes: Here's most of it apart:
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BHlBU0Mj2GC/
> ...


What about getting further in to change the seals for the adjusters.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

boostinmini said:


> What about getting further in to change the seals for the adjusters.


Yeah it's pretty logical. Take everything off the bottom then unscrew the shaft and work inwards.


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## BBongo (1 mo ago)

Fr34k2h0w said:


> View attachment 1965556
> View attachment 1965557
> View attachment 1965558
> View attachment 1965559
> View attachment 1965560


I've picked up a secondhand Mattoc Pro which seems to be working fine except the control knobs don't turn that easily. If I remove the knobs I can turn the controls easily enough with a spanner but when I assemble it all, the controls seem to bind and turn as one. (The HBO control is especially difficult to turn).

My control knobs assemble in exactly the same way as the pictures above. Could I also be missing a spacer?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

BBongo said:


> I've picked up a secondhand Mattoc Pro which seems to be working fine except the control knobs don't turn that easily. If I remove the knobs I can turn the controls easily enough with a spanner but when I assemble it all, the controls seem to bind and turn as one. (The HBO control is especially difficult to turn).
> 
> My control knobs assemble in exactly the same way as the pictures above. Could I also be missing a spacer?


Don't overtighten the knob nut.


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## BBongo (1 mo ago)

Dougal said:


> Don't overtighten the knob nut.


I didn't think I had but I'll have a tinker today to see if I've just been daft. Thanks for the suggestion Dougal


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## BBongo (1 mo ago)

The knobs don't rotate independently even with the screw removed and and the knobs lifted and replaced.

The HS knob (black) turns anti-clockwise when the LS knob (red) is turned that way. The HBO won't rotate within the HS knob - it stays in the same fixed, relative position.

The clicks on the HS adjuster aren't very pronounced. Could it be that which is letting it rotate with the LS knob? (I've no idea yet why the HBO knob won't turn inside the HS one )


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## jmvar (Feb 2, 2004)

If anyone has a mattoc pro 29" they would like to sell please let me know.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

jmvar said:


> If anyone has a mattoc pro 29" they would like to sell please let me know.


I have one I may be willing to part with.


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## fer83 (Jan 7, 2007)

Just taking a seat here for the big anouncement. 


It can't come soon enought


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Is the new mattoc imminent?


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