# Ok, time for serious talk: the virus and you



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Since this is the old persons forum, it makes sense to discuss how this virus affects a person differently based on age.

Plainly put: the older you are, the more lethal the virus is to you,

So here’s the thing about a virus: you make yourself sick by the actions you take.

#1: a virus is not alive, it uses your cells to reproduce
#2: a mask will not protect you from getting sick, masks minimize the spread of the virus from a sick person to their environment
#3: your hands are the primary vector of contagion
#4: your eyes, nose, and mouth are the way the virus gets into your body

So what can you do?

#1: Keep your fingers out of your eyes, nose, or mouth

#2: Clean your hands before putting your fingers in your eyes, nose, or mouth

#3: Avoid places where many people pass through, like movie theaters, public transportation, and grocery stores.

#4: Stay home if you are sick

#5: Don’t go to your doctor and ask to be tested, it doesn’t change a damn thing because there’s no treatment and there’s no cure.

#6: Only seek treatment if your condition is becoming life threatening.

This virus, like many before it, will ultimately infect everyone. Some will never even know they were sick, some will get really sick.

Social isolation is effective for this virus

Standard precautions are effective for this virus.

Don’t freak out, just be freakin safe, and stop picking your damn nose 🙄

Thank you.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

If you have a mask that is n95 rated however, this WILL help protect you from infection, altho not foolproof. 

In addition to the above, if you do have to go out to a busy place, it is a good idea to spray outer clothing with a solution of whatever will kill the virus, but check for toxicity and fabric damage of course. My wife and I are very high risk so we have a little cleaning station in the garage before we go in the house. We are used to these measures as she is very mold allergic, so when I come back from a trip, I always clean and spray down with mold spray, then shower before having too much contact in the house. Clothing goes straight in the machine. 
None of this foolproof of course, but will help minimize risk.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> Since this is the old persons forum, it makes sense to discuss how this virus affects a person differently based on age.
> 
> Plainly put: the older you are, the more lethal the virus is to you,
> 
> ...


Good post. Thanks.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

#5. I figure the purpose of testing is not to cure or treat but rather to try to contain the spread.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

My nephew and his live-in are both potters and actually make their living at our local farmers market throughout most of the year. That event schedules for every Saturday has been cancelled until further notice, and that is their sole source of income other than sales on the side. Lots of people are going to be feeling this in the wallet. 
In the big picture this virus is not the end of the world, unless of course it kills you. That part is just like the flu: many get it, few die. Most of us who get it will live on to die of something else, like cancer or Parkinson's, or if lucky, even old age.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> Since this is the old persons forum, it makes sense to discuss how this virus affects a person differently based on age...


Thanks for that.

Sadly it is likely to carry away some of us, but maybe we can take comfort from this:



Best of luck folks.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

The no nose-picking is gonna be a tough one .....


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

I have allergies and find myself rubbing my eyes a lot. I've made a concious effort to stop it.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben, what do you think us over 65 gym rats should do? I've always suspected that my gym was a petri-dish. My current strategy is long pants, long sleeve T's or sweatshirts, and full-fingered gloves. I spray the gloves with lysol before I get back in my van. I'm working out to maintain my shoulder stability after a rotator cuff surgical repair failed.
Or should I just ride my bike?


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Lone Rager said:


> #5. I figure the purpose of testing is not to cure or treat but rather to try to contain the spread.


You are right, but I don't think we have the ability to mass test, yet. Until then, if people have any symptoms, they should just consider they have it and self quarantine until mass testing is available. It's the responsible thing to do.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> will ultimately infect everyone.


Lie much?


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

mudflap said:


> In the big picture .


I like nurse ben, but to make such a BS claim is not honest, and its not helping anyone, It factually will not infect everyone. The rest of his post I agree with. Glad you showed ignorance and your true colors. I have seen fence post with a higher IQ then you.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/transmission.html

How COVID-19 Spreads

*Person-to-person spread*

The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.

Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes.

These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.

*Can someone spread the virus without being sick?*

People are thought to be most contagious when they are most symptomatic (the sickest).
Some spread might be possible before people show symptoms; there have been reports of this occurring with this new coronavirus, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.

*Spread from contact with contaminated surfaces or objects*

It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Outhouse said:


> I like nurse ben, but to make such a BS claim is not honest, and its not helping anyone, It factually will not infect everyone. The rest of his post I agree with. Glad you showed ignorance and your true colors. I have seen fence post with a higher IQ then you.


Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that it's possible to disagree with someone without personally attacking them.
=sParty


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Sparticus said:


> Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that it's possible to disagree with someone without personally attacking them.
> =sParty


Yeah, that seemed a bit hostile.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

People unconsciously touch their facial area throughout the day. Since your hands are the primary vector of contagion, and the eyes, nose, and mouth are the way the virus gets into your body, a mask in fact can effectively block you from transmitting what you pick up on your hands to your mouth and nose. It may also keep you aware enough to keep your hands away from your eyes.

Agreed the mask won't stop airborne droplets someone coughs into the air in front of you, but the physical barrier in between your hands and your mouth/nose can make a difference.

Having said that, in a time of great shortage of protective gear, medical personnel should be fully stocked before these items are made available generally, IMO.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I want to attack the maroons who bought all the bananas at the super. If your family eats a dozen bananas a week, what are you going to do with 3 or 4 dozen? They're going to have to wolf down a lot of bananas, or bake them into something. That goes for all the other perishables that are sold out. 

Compared to that, stocking up on TP makes a lot of sense. At least it won't go bad and you'll be able to use it...eventually.


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## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

> #2: a mask will not protect you from getting sick, masks minimize the spread of the virus from a sick person to their environment


True; a mask will not filter out the airborne particles, but it will stop the spit that some will project when talking, it will also stop the sneeze from someone else from coming straight into your mouth. It is effective for that. Its a new procedure at the local Dr office. Its a 1st line of defense.


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## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

Lone Rager said:


> I want to attack the maroons who bought all the bananas at the super. If your family eats a dozen bananas a week, what are you going to do with 3 or 4 dozen? They're going to have to wolf down a lot of bananas, or bake them into something. That goes for all the other perishables that are sold out.
> 
> Compared to that, stocking up on TP makes a lot of sense. At least it won't go bad and you'll be able to use it...eventually.


very true. it amazes to me as I walk through various stores. All the people stocking up on perishable items... don't the realize there is a shelf life? 
How much of all the produce purchased will go rotten before eaten, thus depleting everyones supply for the next few weeks. That same person will be back at the store buying even more

What really amazed me, at Walmart, there was NO liquid cold medicine... and no aspirin/Tylenol / Advil on the shelves... wiped out... What is this going to do for you, except have a 10yr supply at your house.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Ladmo said:


> Since your hands are the primary vector of contagion, and the eyes, nose, and mouth are the way the virus gets into your body


Is there somewhere besides the CDC that has information on how the virus spreads?

Because the information I posted above doesn't suggest this. Sure it's a very good thing to wash your hands and not touch your face, but from what I gather from the CDC is that "this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads."


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Sparticus said:


> Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that it's possible to disagree with someone without personally attacking them.
> =sParty


the laughable negative rep with his personal note, was also possible.


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## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

from all I have heard on the news from the medical reports, talking to my lady who is on the front lines at the Dr office she works at, the hands typically enter the body more than other means... rub you eyes, pick nose food in the mouth, those are the entry points. So far it will not enter through skin contact. Its a liquids transfer/transport,


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Cornfield said:


> Because the information I posted above doesn't suggest this. Sure it's a very good thing to wash your hands and not touch your face, but from what I gather from the CDC is that "this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads."


You are correct.

This got away from them if it was not on purpose, because its airborne for 3 hour, generally the virus will enter from hands touching entry points. But it lives a long time out of the body, and in the air, and airborne is why they cannot get a handle on this.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

jvbutter said:


> from all I have heard on the news from the medical reports, talking to my lady who is on the front lines at the Dr office she works at, the hands typically enter the body more than other means... rub you eyes, pick nose food in the mouth, those are the entry points. So far it will not enter through skin contact. Its a liquids transfer/transport,


A quick Google does show it entering those ways, so it must be possible to pick it up on your finger and rub it in your eye: https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-body-symptoms.html

How does this coronavirus cause infection?

The virus is spread through droplets transmitted into the air from coughing or sneezing, which people nearby can take in through their nose, mouth or eyes. The viral particles in these droplets travel quickly to the back of your nasal passages and to the mucous membranes in the back of your throat, attaching to a particular receptor in cells, beginning there.

Coronavirus particles have spiked proteins sticking out from their surfaces, and these spikes hook onto cell membranes, allowing the virus's genetic material to enter the human cell.

That genetic material proceeds to "hijack the metabolism of the cell and say, in effect, 'Don't do your usual job. Your job now is to help me multiply and make the virus,'" said Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville.



Outhouse said:


> You are correct.
> 
> This got away from them if it was not on purpose, because its airborne for 3 hour, generally the virus will enter from hands touching entry points. But it lives a long time out of the body, and in the air, and airborne is why they cannot get a handle on this.


I watched an interview with Michael Osterholm and I believe he said it didn't even have to be droplets, I could be floating in the air surrounding you, which is why so many people on the cruise ships got infected.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Radium said:


> Nurse Ben, what do you think us over 65 gym rats should do? I've always suspected that my gym was a petri-dish. My current strategy is long pants, long sleeve T's or sweatshirts, and full-fingered gloves. I spray the gloves with lysol before I get back in my van. I'm working out to maintain my shoulder stability after a rotator cuff surgical repair failed.
> Or should I just ride my bike?


I don't like the gym, but I go to the little gym at my workplace 2-3x/wk for brief upper body exercises. Friday was my last day. Petri dish, I agree. I'll do some home calisthenics and ride my bike outside until that gets outlawed.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Outhouse said:


> Lie much?


Can you offer some evidence to substantiate your accusation?


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Outhouse said:


> I like nurse ben, but to make such a BS claim is not honest, and its not helping anyone, It factually will not infect everyone. The rest of his post I agree with. Glad you showed ignorance and your true colors. I have seen fence post with a higher IQ then you.


Perfect spelling, solid sentence structure and wonderful grammar, you are a true beacon of light in a time of darkness!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Suddenly this looks like a good idea...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Meanwhile the UK govt has floated the idea of imprisoning everyone over 70 in their own home, and not providing any treatment to over 65s.

They're backing off from that now, but if there hadn't been such a reaction, I could see it having become policy.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Velobike said:


> Meanwhile the UK govt has floated the idea of imprisoning everyone over 70 in their own home, and not providing any treatment to over 65s.
> 
> They're backing off from that now, but if there hadn't been such a reaction, I could see it having become policy.


I guess this would be a bad time for me to consider that Trans-Atlantic kayak trip I've been training for. At 66, I'd be dogfood.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Outhouse said:


> I like nurse ben, but to make such a BS claim is not honest, and its not helping anyone, It factually will not infect everyone. The rest of his post I agree with. Glad you showed ignorance and your true colors. I have seen fence post with a higher IQ then you.


Fer godz sake , Outhouse, he's not that bad. A little pontifical,. maybe, but who can't resist the siren song of Self-Importance sometimes? None of us. The Nurse might be a lotta things, but he's not stupid, that's for sure. Meanwhile, the Sand Diego women's jail has stopped all visiting rights. Good thing mine's getting bailed out today!


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Maybe one should read and redact a paragraph if one is copying and pasting unsubstantiated rhetoric. 

Keep that negative rep coming, for those of you with IQ's below what a fence post possesses. 

Fact is, it will NOT infect everyone. Those of you with low intellects questioning me, please feel free to post something credible that substantiates such, its not my job to substantiate your idiocy and imagination.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Cornfield said:


> Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
> Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes.
> 
> .


Careful posting facts and credible knowledge, many of the scared kids will negative rep you.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

The reason im calling ben on this, is that factually bad statements like that, scare stupid people. We need much less of that right now.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Radium said:


> I guess this would be a bad time for me to consider that Trans-Atlantic kayak trip I've been training for. At 66, I'd be dogfood.


On the contrary, might be a great time. You'd be practicing extreme social distancing and by the time you get there, it might all be over, either just petered out or everyone has expired.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Outhouse said:


> The reason im calling ben on this, is that factually bad statements like that, scare stupid people. We need much less of that right now.


It may not infect everyone, but it will infect most of us eventually. All the social distancing in the world isn't going to prevent that. The challenge is to slow down the infection rate so that medical care doesn't get overwhelmed. We should definitely take reasonable precautions, but we aren't going to be able to stop it. You can disagree with me all you want, but time will prove my point.


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## BlackPenquinn (Nov 7, 2014)

Radium said:


> Nurse Ben, what do you think us over 65 gym rats should do? I've always suspected that my gym was a petri-dish. My current strategy is long pants, long sleeve T's or sweatshirts, and full-fingered gloves. I spray the gloves with lysol before I get back in my van. I'm working out to maintain my shoulder stability after a rotator cuff surgical repair failed.
> Or should I just ride my bike?


A room full of people sweating and vigorously breathing, what could go wrong?


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks for sharing Nurse Ben


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

BlackPenquinn said:


> A room full of people sweating and vigorously breathing, what could go wrong?


Lol no kidding

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Outhouse said:


> The reason im calling ben on this, is that factually bad statements like that, scare stupid people. We need much less of that right now.


Are you an infectious disease specialist by chance?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks Nurse Ben...

My kid was attending a college semester abroad program in Florence, Italy and made it home last week. She is self-quarantining at my ex'$ house for two weeks.

I'm not as concerned about myself so much as inadvertently passing it on to an elderly parent/friend/etc. or someone who have may have a compromised immune system. So I am minimizing interactions with others for now.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Only time will tell for sure if Nurse Ben is right or not. But if it's anything like the flu (which comes back every year) then he is not that far off. Not everyone but just about most has the flu in their lifetime.



Outhouse said:


> Maybe one should read and redact a paragraph if one is copying and pasting unsubstantiated rhetoric.
> 
> Keep that negative rep coming, for those of you with IQ's below what a fence post possesses.
> 
> Fact is, it will NOT infect everyone. Those of you with low intellects questioning me, please feel free to post something credible that substantiates such, its not my job to substantiate your idiocy and imagination.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Ben prob left out the word 'almost'. He seems a sensible person with common sense, so give him a break outhouse. Calling his intelligence into question is unnecessarily hostile and personal. The fact is, almost all of us will get it, and many will have no idea. You included. Everything else he says is eminently sensible.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

Meh, if you're only getting your Corona virus news from Mtbr than good for you! If not than the news is pedaling more gloom & doom than nurse Ben. Being a nurse his outlook is probably a bit more realistic to his circumstances. Most of us will just be at home trying to find room for toilet paper.

We might all get it, most likely not. But getting the virus isn't a death sentence. Your stress levels do effect your well being. So I wouldn't worry about it. 

Negatives: all pretty obvious. Oh your stocks have dropped in value more than your 27.5". Sell before they reach 26" levels.

Positives: Less travel = less CO2 = happy hippies. You've got enough toilet paper to last a year! After the stock market drops another 30% it's a buying opportunity. Plenty of 2020 bikes will be on fire sale at the end of the year. 

If you get the Corona virus & survive you'll be a god among men/women/trans. Assuming you've built up immunity. The world will be your oyster. Travel and walk the Earth with your head held high. If you get it again, you know the drill. Rinse and repeat. Probably should have done more of that, you got cocky.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Outhouse said:


> Maybe one should read and redact a paragraph if one is copying and pasting unsubstantiated rhetoric.
> 
> Keep that negative rep coming, for those of you with IQ's below what a fence post possesses.
> 
> Fact is, it will NOT infect everyone. Those of you with low intellects questioning me, please feel free to post something credible that substantiates such, its not my job to substantiate your idiocy and imagination.


Chill dude. Yes, not "everyone" will get it. We certainly could parse the difference between a lie and exaggeration but I don't think it is necessary as I give most here the credit of understanding the difference. Many epidemiologists expect 50% of the population to become infected on this first pass. Some expect this to become a seasonal thing that could go on for years, like the flu. In that scenario "practically everyone" could become infected eventually.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

eshew said:


> Negatives: all pretty obvious. Oh your stocks have dropped in value more than your 27.5". Sell before they reach 26" levels.


Meh, not so much. It's far better to buy stocks now than it was 2 months ago. Selling at low points is no way to increase/preserve wealth.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I am genuinely concerned about some very large companies at this point. Exxon has been steadily selling assets to cover its dividend for a few years now. They simply can't make money on $30 oil. No non-government oil company can.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/exc...assets-to-focus-on-mega-projects-sources-2019

Ford is even worse. It doesn't really have assets to sell. It is close to maxed out on credit, and its stock is way in the tank.

A loss of a mega-company like Exxon or Ford would tip us way further into the hole. Of course, we may just print money to cover them, but that has consequences as well.

What about insurance companies? They can't be feeling good right now.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Meh, not so much. It's far better to buy stocks now than it was 2 months ago. Selling at low points is no way to increase/preserve wealth.


I think you said this on another thread last week when the market was "only" at a one year low. How is that working out for you? The market hit a three year low this morning.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

2007–2009 was a 17-month bear market that lasted from October 9, 2007 to March 9, 2009, during the financial crisis of 2007-2009. The S&P 500 lost approximately 50% of its value.

I dont think this is going to be any better. I'd assume worse as we've got another 6 months at least before the world moves on.

The Dow has already dipped to almost a 50% loss High of 29,958 low or 20,387 & this thing is in it's infancy.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> I think you said this on another thread last week when the market was "only" at a one year low. How is that working out for you? The market hit a three year low this morning.


Again, still in buying mode. I have been buying since the Dow was at about 2,000.

Thanks to dollar cost averaging I am buying more shares today than I was last week.

If I was retired and needing to sell shares to survive it would be less than ideal, but at the moment my portfolio is only down about 13% year to date.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

eshew said:


> 2007-2009 was a 17-month bear market that lasted from October 9, 2007 to March 9, 2009, during the financial crisis of 2007-2009. The S&P 500 lost approximately 50% of its value.
> 
> I dont think this is going to be any better. I'd assume worse as we've got another 6 months at least before the world moves on.
> 
> The Dow has already dipped to almost a 50% loss High of 29,958 low or 20,387 & this thing is in it's infancy.


If you MUST sell to raise cash for something in the next 6 months, then it might be wise to sell now as it may go lower.

In 2008 if you had sold half way to the bottom, Dow at 10k it would have taken about a year to bottom and bounce back up to 10k. For most, that window was pretty small to sit it out.

One must also consider taxes. If one sells equities bought 4 years ago, there would be a good chance of capital gains.

I think the psychology of the this event is much different than the financial crisis and expect it to recover about as quickly as it went down. The quicker this is over the less structural financial damage.


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Some expect this to become a seasonal thing that could go on for years, like the flu. In that scenario "practically everyone" could become infected eventually.


key word is "could". chill, ??? eat one. saying everyone will get it is the same as saying my mom and others with other issues combined with age will in fact die. I know my mom cannot survive this, and i already said i like nurse ben, key word, nurse.

fact is he has no idea to "will" and all these idiots want good advise in a pandemic, not someone spreading panic and doom and gloom


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

If you have been nearing retirement your plan should have been rebalancing all of the gains to low risk every quarter. That is cushioning the fall and will provide income if needed. Meanwhile buy on a regular basis and ignore the herd from a position out of its path. 
Life goes on. 
Your time is just as limited as it ever was.
Most of the negative activity is a result of speculation, rumor, and posturing.
It all passes.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Outhouse said:


> key word is "could". chill, ??? eat one. saying everyone will get it is the same as saying my mom and others with other issues combined with age will in fact die. I know my mom cannot survive this, and i already said i like nurse ben, key word, nurse.
> 
> fact is he has no idea to "will" and all these idiots want good advise in a pandemic, not someone spreading panic and doom and gloom


Eat one? Really? Hardly the same level advice as to "chill".

Sorry if you are really stressed about this due to your mom. That is all the more reason to take this seriously and ASSUME that it will infect more vs less. Some people are hell bent on visiting the elderly at the risk of infecting them without understanding that they could be infected themselves and delivering the virus to those least able to fight it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Since this is the old persons forum, it makes sense to discuss how this virus affects a person differently based on age.
> 
> Plainly put: the older you are, the more lethal the virus is to you,
> 
> ...


All very good points and the only disagreement I would have is with point 5. If you are sick, see your primary care physician. They can determine if you have an influenza infection (which they can give you an anti-viral for) or something like SARS-CoV-2.

Currently, the data on outcome from SARS-CoV-2 in clinical care versus outside clinical care is not known. For those <50, overall outcome from infection is good. For those >60, outcome is generally bad - which makes me think if you are above 60 and are positive for SARS-CoV-2, you should be under clinical care.

One other point regarding infection. Most zoonotic viruses attenuate as they pass through man. SARS-1 and MERS did this and are great examples. The mortality rates in Italy are worrisome and suggest continued virulence. That is what has people worried.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Timely


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Vespasianus said:


> All very good points and the only disagreement I would have is with point 5. If you are sick, see your primary care physician. They can determine if you have an influenza infection (which they can give you an anti-viral for) or something like SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> Currently, the data on outcome from SARS-CoV-2 in clinical care versus outside clinical care is not known. For those <50, overall outcome from infection is good. For those >60, outcome is generally bad - which makes me think if you are above 60 and are positive for SARS-CoV-2, you should be under clinical care.
> 
> One other point regarding infection. Most zoonotic viruses attenuate as they pass through man. SARS-1 and MERS did this and are great examples. The mortality rates in Italy are worrisome and suggest continued virulence. That is what has people worried.


In CO they are telling us NOT to go to our doctor, a clinic, or an emergency room unless you are *extremely* sick or have trauma as from a car accident. They have a hotline to call, usually the county health department. People with flu-like symptoms are told to self-isolate unless they are elderly and/or have underlying symptoms. This is to protect the caregivers.

There is a shortage of masks and gloves in Denver. Without those, we might as well just assume every caregiver is going to be infected.

Bad news.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Memphis hospital Corona patient sent home.
Much improved.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Memphis hospital Corona patient sent home.
> Much improved.


Elvis continues to live!

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Oregon had its first fatality a couple of days ago. 70 year-old dude.

https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/First-fatality-from-coronavirus-reported-in-Oregon-568807261.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> Elvis continues to live!
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Well no, humor notwithstanding. 
Like many millions sadly, his demise was self inflicted long ago.
Otherwise he would be my Dad's age, at high risk, and I expect, under the watchful eyes of loved ones.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

New York state had their first case on 3/1/20. On 3/7/20 they had 76. 

Today, on 3/16 they have over 950 cases and 7 deaths.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> New York state had their first case on 3/1/20. On 3/7/20 they had 76.
> 
> Today, on 3/16 they have over 950 cases and 7 deaths.


How many people were tested on 3/1/20?
How many people were tested on 3/7/20?
How many people did they test today on 3/16/20?


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## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

Every one of us is going to die. No exceptions. 

Probably not from this virus but still.....

I'm lucky. 

I crashed pretty hard two weeks ago and hurt my knee and my ribs. Doesn't look like anything is broken but due to the pain, I am only riding at home on my stationary bike. Additionally, since it has been raining, I would not be on the trails anyway. So my self imposed solitary confinement works out pretty well from a timing stand point with this virus.

I doubt I will get it. Instead I will probably die from a rupture in the aneurism of my ascending aorta, or kidney failure from my diabetes, or a severe stroke, or possibly cancer but we have not biopsied the nodule yet.

Like I said, I'm lucky. LOL


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Train Wreck said:


> How many people were tested on 3/1/20?
> How many people were tested on 3/7/20?
> How many people did they test today on 3/16/20?


Not enough.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I would avoid places where high numbers of people pass through, esp places where there is a lot of moisture.

Avoid public transportation, public bathrooms, gyms, etc...

Keep in mind that moisture increases the spread of a virus, which sucks if you live in a wet place.

Work out at home, spin bike or trainer, set up a home gym with a pull up bar, add some ropes with handles and you can do lat pulls, add in pushups, seated push ups, crunches, squats, stretching, all you need is already at home.



Radium said:


> Nurse Ben, what do you think us over 65 gym rats should do? I've always suspected that my gym was a petri-dish. My current strategy is long pants, long sleeve T's or sweatshirts, and full-fingered gloves. I spray the gloves with lysol before I get back in my van. I'm working out to maintain my shoulder stability after a rotator cuff surgical repair failed.
> Or should I just ride my bike?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Outhouse said:


> Lie much?


Ouch!

It's a virus, like the flu we are all susceptible, there's no way to prevent getting a virus, some will get sicker than others, maybe we'll get a vaccine.

But yeah, we will all be exposed at some point, just like all the other viruses.

Good luck with your exposure.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Radium said:


> Nurse Ben, what do you think us over 65 gym rats should do? I've always suspected that my gym was a petri-dish. My current strategy is long pants, long sleeve T's or sweatshirts, and full-fingered gloves. I spray the gloves with lysol before I get back in my van. I'm working out to maintain my shoulder stability after a rotator cuff surgical repair failed.
> Or should I just ride my bike?


I'm a gym rat as well and can't go without. I decided now was the time to expand my home fitness facility (from nothing) and pick up a few things to keep me out of the gym. I figured now is a great time of year for garage workouts. I went a little overboard but with a good set of resistance bands ($30 Amazon) one should be able to get a decent workout.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Actually, please DON'T GO SEE YOUR MEDICAL PROVIDER if you are sick.

My wife is a primary care provider in a very large OP practice with an urgent care.

They are not allowing people who exhibit symptoms typical of a viral infection into the building as this will only serve to spread the virus to people who are not sick.

They are screening people outside the building.

There is no treatment for this virus, all you can do is care for yourself, avoid social contacts that can spread the virus, and wait for the symptoms to resolve

If you are sick, assume you have a virus, if it gets worse and you need medical assistance, GO TO THE ER!

P.S. In my clinic we are screening at the door, sick people are being told to go home and call in for directions/rescheduling, anyone who comes into the clinic is being masked and we're requiring hand cleaning.



Vespasianus said:


> All very good points and the only disagreement I would have is with point 5. If you are sick, see your primary care physician. They can determine if you have an influenza infection (which they can give you an anti-viral for) or something like SARS-CoV-2.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanks Ben for putting this together...

While we are being a bit blunt. I might also throw out there how one might adjust their riding during this coronavirus time. I would feel really bad if a crash landed me in a spot needing medical care that should be going towards COVID-19 patients. Just a thought to throw out there. Stay safe and healthy folks.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Actually, please DON'T GO SEE YOUR MEDICAL PROVIDER if you are sick.
> 
> My wife is a primary care provider in a very large OP practice with an urgent care.
> 
> ...


We have set up remote access virtual visits and can determine the correct course of action based upon that interaction. All patients if they have any flu like symptoms (coughing, sneezing, sore throat, etc) are asked to put on mask and are kept separate from all other patients. We are not screening effectively but that has to change. Those that are infected need to be identified and competently quarantined.

With a mortality rate of ~5-10% in those >70, this is not a virus that can be allowed to infect 40-70% of the population - which is what will happen if it is not contained. We need to be screening and screening widely.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Question.
How often will negatives be re-screened?


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## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> Actually, please DON'T GO SEE YOUR MEDICAL PROVIDER if you are sick.
> 
> My wife is a primary care provider in a very large OP practice with an urgent care.
> 
> ...


Nurse Ben, 
So true are your words... the most they can do is give oxygen for your shortness of breath. nothing else to do, since there is no treatment.

willing you can breath, stay home and self quarantine. that is the best option. my lady works in Dr office, doing the same drive up service as mentioned above.

thx


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

eshew said:


> Meh, if you're only getting your Corona virus news from Mtbr than good for you! If not than the news is pedaling more gloom & doom than nurse Ben. Being a nurse his outlook is probably a bit more realistic to his circumstances. Most of us will just be at home trying to find room for toilet paper.
> 
> We might all get it, most likely not. But getting the virus isn't a death sentence. Your stress levels do effect your well being. So I wouldn't worry about it.
> 
> ...


Best post before the Purge starts.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> I would avoid places where high numbers of people pass through, esp places where there is a lot of moisture...


Sounds like I should stop seeing my usual girl friend.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Lone Rager said:


> Sounds like I should stop seeing my usual girl friend.


...the same being true for the rest of us as well. :eekster:


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You mean "usual" as in the one you saw last night or the two who came over to your house after they were at my house 



Lone Rager said:


> Sounds like I should stop seeing my usual girl friend.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It's getting to be crazy town out there!

My wife's clinic is now requiring people to "call" from their car when they arrive for a scheduled appt, then they are instructed to stay in their car until a staff person comes to their car to assess them.

Only people who are not exhibiting symptoms of the virus are allowed into the clinic and all clients must wash hands and wear a mask.

My wife is wearing scrubs, she changes before she gets in her car to come home, then she washes her clothes when she gets home.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's getting to be crazy town out there!


Oregon Gov. Kate Brown ordered Oregon restaurants and bars to stop all on-site dining and limit sales to takeout and delivery at a press conference Monday afternoon.
=sParty


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's getting to be crazy town out there!
> 
> My wife's clinic is now requiring people to "call" from their car when they arrive for a scheduled appt, then they are instructed to stay in their car until a staff person comes to their car to assess them.
> 
> ...


Minus the scrubs, that's what I do when I go to the store....I've suspended my practice for the duration of this.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

You know it's serious when this happens:

_MGM Resorts will temporarily close all Las Vegas properties as of Tuesday, March 17 for the good of our employees, guests and communities._


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

I am self-employed, which means I work only with myself, but unfortunately I work in a large field which is totally dependent upon discretionary spending. It might be that my area of expertise might not be needed in the same way in the future either. 33 years, international recognition, and lots of critical success. Now what? Hmmm. Challenging times to come for all of us. Be safe and please don't underestimate (or for that matter, overestimate) the coronavirus, its impact on the economy, or our society.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

soooo... if clinics etc don't want people to come in unless they are "dying" and then go to the ER... how many people actually have this??? since the testing is a mess, and if a bunch of people probably have it but are trying to ride it out at home.. how many people actually have this stuff??

oh well... I don't like it... I mean they closed everything fun.. but everyone is at the grocery store.. packed in .. what is the point? 

For now there is no restrictions on going out for mtb ride if it ever stops raining I plan on getting out ... my wife is working from home as well, and the "togetherness" is starting to get a bit much =p


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

An incredible learning opportunity, isn’t it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

American's have less fear of viral infection since vaccines were developed for all the "common diseases" that were problematic prior to 1970.

Unlike countries where novel viral outbreaks are more common, we have lost our institutional memory because most of the folks who were alive to have experienced these diseases pre-vaccine are quite old and/or deceased.

Pertussis 1914
Diptheria 1926
Tetanus 1924/38
Polio 1955
Measles 1963
Mumps 1967
Rubella 1969

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-history/developments-by-year

So yes, it'll be a painful learning opportunity, but one we probably should take to heart.

I'd like to think that this will drive American's to choose differently, perhaps reassess what and how we value life. It'd be nice to have a deeper health care system with adequate resources.



OzarkFathom said:


> An incredible learning opportunity, isn't it.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

oh dear...

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/03/17/clearwater-beach-spring-break-coronavirus-mxp-vpx.hln

Visitors pack beach despite coronavirus warnings:: Spring breakers don't seem to care about the virus or much else I guess....

So seriously what is the point of everyone else disrupting everything if thousands of people are doing this???

I know of Bars staying open here despite the orders (requests?) to close... meh...


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

atarione said:


> soooo... if clinics etc don't want people to come in unless they are "dying" and then go to the ER... how many people actually have this??? since the testing is a mess, and if a bunch of people probably have it but are trying to ride it out at home.. how many people actually have this stuff??
> 
> *oh well... I don't like it... I mean they closed everything fun.. but everyone is at the grocery store.. packed in .. what is the point*?
> 
> For now there is no restrictions on going out for mtb ride if it ever stops raining I plan on getting out ... my wife is working from home as well, and the "togetherness" is starting to get a bit much =p


I should start to tally up the amount of times you said this stuff.....
LOL Well not funny but you're doing noting except pointing out the obvious.

I can tell you in my town there are no cases (reported). Stores are going empty so people are doing what they can to be prepared before we too end up with the shelter in place deal.
Many places are beginning to close early, or close totally (depending) on the type of business.

You're blanket statement in multiple threads is spoken without knowing anything about what those people are going through.
In the past few days I've bought pretty much everything except toilet paper.
Now all I do is go to work. And within days I'll be working from home.

Why....? Well just in case I have contracted it -I don't want the responsibility of spreading it around my work.
I'm not of the concerned age group. I'm pretty healthy and all that other crap that really means absolutely nothing. I don't want to be sick but even more so I do not want to give it to other, especially if I am asymtomatic.

So maybe instead of continuing to say how useless the actions are you could try to look at it from a different perspective. 
I mean I am glad for you that you've been able to stay in side and avoid all the stores. It's doing all the people you'd otherwise be in contact with a favor.

Tensions are high all over. People deal with crisis (is this a crisis yet) in differnet way. Lots will deny it until it suddenly hits them while others will be what is considered over-sensitive and some don't really care.

We'll all get through it, eventually. Until then, probably not necessary to say how bad 'other people' are handling the situation because they are all dealing with it in their own way.
I heard a story of a local hair stylist with a husband that has been traveling and is home with a sore through saying "he has a cold from flying, It's fine that I go to the salon to work so ya'll need to get off my back because my husband doesn't have Covid-19." One of the other stylist in the salon is a care taker for an elderly parent.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

If ultimately everyone will get the virus, why bother with trying not to get it?

You might as well come.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

plummet said:


> If ultimately everyone will get the virus, why bother with trying not to get it?


The answer is simple, to not over run the health system the way it is occurring in parts of Europe. If we can slow the spread we can cycle people in and out of the hospital to make room for the next patient.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> An incredible learning opportunity, isn't it.


Heheh!


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> The answer is simple, to not over run the health system the way it is occurring in parts of Europe. If we can slow the spread we can cycle people in and out of the hospital to make room for the next patient.
> 
> View attachment 1317963


How many times do we need to tell people?


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

atarione said:


> soooo... if clinics etc don't want people to come in unless they are "dying" and then go to the ER... how many people actually have this??? since the testing is a mess, and if a bunch of people probably have it but are trying to ride it out at home.. how many people actually have this stuff??
> 
> oh well... I don't like it... I mean they closed everything fun.. but everyone is at the grocery store.. packed in .. what is the point?
> 
> For now there is no restrictions on going out for mtb ride if it ever stops raining I plan on getting out ... my wife is working from home as well, and the "togetherness" is starting to get a bit much =p


It's stupid isn't it? All those idiotic and selfish people having fun when you are being responsible and self quarantining! Almost makes you want to go out and be a part of the problem again huh?!?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Cmom did you realy wrote
***Since this is the old persons forum,***
10 years ago a grocery nearby started to give 10% off on wednesday 
for people over 50.
I started to call myself part of the ***not young*** group.
I am 62 and do not act old.
Last 20 years no car i just pedal in any weather.
Maybe you could call the riders with a car *** the lazys***


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Here is some good information:

https://247sports.com/college/michigan/LongFormArticle/Coronavirus-COVID-19-pandemic-Lengthening-the-curve-University-of-Michigan-Dr-Preeti-N-Malani-Dr-Steven-Gay-Dr-Michelle-M-Daniel-145135667/#145135667_8

(It's okay if people in Ohio sing there own special version of "The Victors" while washing hands )


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Each of us should be doing everything to prevent the spread, just like the BlueCheesehead said: slow it down. Slow it down here, and then turn our resources south to where our food supply comes from. Countries where the virus will run rampant is where a lot of our food is grown. If their hospitals are overwhelmed, it will kill more people than otherwise. Next, workers don't work the fields and food supply slows, or stops. Dire? Yes, but if we work at it here, it may well serve us later.
So ***king get your **** together and step up.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

BlueCheesehead said:


> The answer is simple, to not over run the health system the way it is occurring in parts of Europe. If we can slow the spread we can cycle people in and out of the hospital to make room for the next patient.
> 
> View attachment 1317963


This is why I keep bringing up my "why aren't we as concerned about the _common_ flu question. Yes, I know corona can be more deadly (odds). I know the math. And yes, I know there's a vaccine. But the fact remains that as many as 800,000 people are hospitalized as a result of the flu, and up to 60,000 die from it, and up to 45,000,000 get infected annually in the U.S. alone (CDC numbers). Imagine the load we could take off the system if we simply practiced the same common sense approach for the common flu as we are trying to do for corona. If you're sick with the common flu, isolate yourself. Pisses me off when people are out in public and at work coughing and hacking up phlegm. But, when you live in a world where people call 911 because a store is out of toilet paper, what can we expect...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

God Bless all the people who as a matter of Principle, live their daily lives with Character and Self Discipline as a matter of normal daily routine. They do untold service to the rest of us in times of greatest need without prodding or threat. They get little noticed until things get really bad, and on reflection through the eyes of History.

God Bless ‘em All


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## Outhouse (Jul 26, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ouch!
> 
> It's a virus, like the flu we are all susceptible, there's no way to prevent getting a virus, some will get sicker than others, maybe we'll get a vaccine.
> 
> ...


Doctors ad professors have been throwing out 50% TO 80%, NOT A 100%. WHEN YOU SAY 100% You are telling people all family and friends who are having a tough time without the virus, are basically dead people.

Do you have any credible sources links that show 100% is a solid number?


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

fredcook said:


> This is why I keep bringing up my "why aren't we as concerned about the _common_ flu question. Yes, I know corona can be more deadly (odds). I know the math. And yes, I know there's a vaccine. But the fact remains that as many as 800,000 people are hospitalized as a result of the flu, and up to 60,000 die from it, and up to 45,000,000 get infected annually in the U.S. alone (CDC numbers). Imagine the load we could take off the system if we simply practiced the same common sense approach for the common flu as we are trying to do for corona. If you're sick with the common flu, isolate yourself. Pisses me off when people are out in public and at work coughing and hacking up phlegm. But, when you live in a world where people call 911 because a store is out of toilet paper, what can we expect...


I get your point, but we largely have the common flu baked into our healthcare system. The problem occurs when something unusual pops up to further tax the resources on top of the "normal" flu. In theory, the social distancing should help reduce the spread of other infectious diseases as well. Reducing the number of flu cases will open up room in the system for more COVID-19 cases.

As for the numbers, 45M people getting the flu is roughly 12% of the population. Some think COVID might strike 50%+ since we have no herd immunity. It's easy to see how that could over-run the system.

There is no practical way to build and staff a healthcare infrastructure and have it on standby for a 100 year event such as this. At some point we have to recognize that nature provides fires, floods, famines, plagues and the like. Some we can prevent, some we cannot.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Outhouse said:


> Doctors ad professors have been throwing out 50% TO 80%, NOT A 100%. WHEN YOU SAY 100% You are telling people all family and friends who are having a tough time without the virus, are basically dead people.
> 
> Do you have any credible sources links that show 100% is a solid number?


The common old is a corona virus. Do you know anyone that has not had the common cold? The flu is a virus that mutates every year and it is always a bit of a guess as to how to formulate the vaccine. How many people do you know that have NEVER had the flu? COVID-19 mutated from something and will mutate into something else. It is not unreasonable to think the at some point everyone will get some form of the COVID virus be it this mutation or a future one. Will future ones be as deadly? Who knows.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Again, still in buying mode. I have been buying since the Dow was at about 2,000.
> 
> Thanks to dollar cost averaging I am buying more shares today than I was last week.
> 
> If I was retired and needing to sell shares to survive it would be less than ideal, but at the moment my portfolio is only down about 13% year to date.


While I don't disagree completely, since this is the 50+ forum, a lot of the people here are either at or perhaps closer to retirement and this is very bad news for those who presently need or will shortly need investment income. Of course if you're younger and have a longer investment horizon, then it might be a decent buying opportunity for a big bounce in several years.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Unfortunately, this is really going to hit all the workers in the service industries pretty hard. There are likely millions of people living from one paycheck to the next who may be either out of a job entirely or temporarily.

In other news, I'm finally recovering from some crap sickness (not Covid) and can't wait to get out riding again.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

As a learning experience. 

Pay attention to your portfolio ratio of stocks to more secure elements. You can generally implement a quarterly rebalance feature to maintain an appropriate risk ratio as you approach retirement.
This can flatten the inverted curve.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Outhouse said:


> Doctors ad professors have been throwing out 50% TO 80%, NOT A 100%. WHEN YOU SAY 100% You are telling people all family and friends who are having a tough time without the virus, are basically dead people.
> 
> Do you have any credible sources links that show 100% is a solid number?


It's a virus, do you understand how a virus works and how contagion occurs?

This is not rocket science, it's not wishful thinking, we will all be exposed unless we never again interact with or share objects with another human being.

I'm not here to help you understand what to believe, that is entirely up to you.

Don't make this into a competition, it is very simple science.

How it works:

The mortality risk is higher in high risks groups, which include people with pre-existing conditions and those who are immune compromised.

The mortality rate is higher for infants whose immune system is immature and it's higher for older folks because we more often have pre-existing health conditions and can have a less effective immune system.

If you practice standard procedures in regards to preventing contagion, you will reduce your risks of infection and you will reduce the risks of infecting others.

My recommendation as a health care provider:

If you are in the high risk group, you should become a hermit for the next month or two.

But how you live your life and the risks you are willing to take that affect you is entirely up to you, HOWEVER, if you are sick and you are making choices that could affect others, ie spreading the virus, YOU ARE MAKING CHOICES THAT HARM OTHERS.

Lots of folks are being stubborn about how they respond to this pandemic.

Being stubborn won't reduce your risk, just saying.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's a virus, do you understand how a virus works and how contagion occurs?
> 
> This is not rocket science, it's not wishful thinking, we will all be exposed unless we never again interact with or share objects with another human being.
> 
> ...


I posted this elsewhere but is relevant as an add to your response.


> I think that the actual infection rate is supposed to be 100% if there is the potential to get everyone in the population together in the same room. The concept is that every human is susceptible to this virus. There is no natural immunity, perhaps there are a few folks that might have the ability to not get it, so lets say 99% of americans could get it.
> 
> However by quarantining, controlling the populations, etc. you can isolate the virus within a population and when the entire population has gotten it then the virus cannot propagate within the population because they all have immunity now and now have an immune reaction immediately, based on their previous contact with it. Therefore it dies off in that population. If no one enters that population within lets say 3 days after the last members stops shedding the virus, and all virus on surfaces has died then you could enter that population and not get the virus.
> 
> ...


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

Stoners are hoarding Pot
Drunks are hoarding Booze
So, who's hoarding Toilet Paper? Assholes


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> American's have less fear of viral infection since vaccines were developed for all the "common diseases" that were problematic prior to 1970.
> 
> Unlike countries where novel viral outbreaks are more common, we have lost our institutional memory because most of the folks who were alive to have experienced these diseases pre-vaccine are quite old and/or deceased.
> 
> ...


Like 9/11.....some have forgotten that

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

2old said:


> Like 9/11.....some have forgotten that
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Like we did with Sandy Hook, as well right? Giving America too much credit here.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

America is teaching the planet a lesson.
Vote for a bankrupt expert = bye, bye country BANkrupt.
Wiped bye the orange virus.
Michelle Obama might save them like the other Obama did.
Suicide by the gun lovers


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

Thank you, Nurse Ben! Your message is clearly articulated; your approach is intelligent to this health crisis and very rational; it is scientifically based; and, you are offering sound medical advice.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

beastmaster said:


> Thank you, Nurse Ben! Your message is clearly articulated; your approach is intelligent to this health crisis and very rational; it is scientifically based; and, you are offering sound medical advice.


Agreed.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Here is some good information:
> 
> https://247sports.com/college/michigan/LongFormArticle/Coronavirus-COVID-19-pandemic-Lengthening-the-curve-University-of-Michigan-Dr-Preeti-N-Malani-Dr-Steven-Gay-Dr-Michelle-M-Daniel-145135667/#145135667_8
> 
> (It's okay if people in Ohio sing there own special version of "The Victors" while washing hands )


...pretty funny!!! And I am not even an Ohio State fan, but from C-bus



Phillbo said:


> Stoners are hoarding Pot
> Drunks are hoarding Booze
> So, who's hoarding Toilet Paper? Assholes


this funny, or sad, b/c it is true...these are the same types who are hoarding all of the masks and sanitizer....leaving hospitals and medical units without those items...

people definitely don't think about the other guy in times of crisis, and that is more scary to me than anything the virus is going to do


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

I think it is surprising so many are just discovering that the veneer of Civilization is very thin indeed.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

atarione said:


> I think it is surprising so many are just discovering that the veneer of Civilization is very thin indeed.


Yep, people are jerks...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Just ignore them.....


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

33red said:


> America is teaching the planet a lesson.
> Vote for a bankrupt expert = bye, bye country BANkrupt.
> Wiped bye the orange virus.
> Michelle Obama might save them like the other Obama did.
> Suicide by the gun lovers


Crawl back in in your little hole, please. Thank you!


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

33red said:


> America is teaching the planet a lesson.
> Vote for a bankrupt expert = bye, bye country BANkrupt.
> Wiped bye the orange virus.
> Michelle Obama might save them like the other Obama did.
> Suicide by the gun lovers


How about the rest of the world? You're ignorance is showing. You're the perfect test subject.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> How about the rest of the world? You're ignorance is showing. You're the perfect test subject.


Quoted for irony.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Quoted for irony.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I knew you wouldn't be far behind. Turn a virus political.. bunch of geniuses.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

And thanks OP for your insight. Truly.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> America is teaching the planet a lesson.
> Vote for a bankrupt expert = bye, bye country BANkrupt.
> Wiped bye the orange virus.
> Michelle Obama might save them like the other Obama did.
> Suicide by the gun lovers


A few points of fact to Enlighten our Ill informed Critic to the North....

1.) America has more critical care beds per capita for her citizens than Canada.

2.) President Obama declared a National Emergency after 1000 Americans died from the H1N1 Pandemic and 4 MONTHS after the WHO declared it a pandemic. Total American deaths rose to 12 THOUSAND under Obama.

3.) President Trump declared a National Emergency after 40 Americans died and 2 DAYS after 
the WHO declared it a pandemic. Total American deaths from COVID-19 unknown at this time.

4.) As for The Americans' Constitutional Right to Bear Arms......


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> I knew you wouldn't be far behind. Turn a virus political.. bunch of geniuses.


I don't agree with the person you quoted, FWIW.

But if you are going to call someone else ignorant, well...

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> A few points of fact to Enlighten our Ill informed Critic to the North....
> 
> 1.) America has more critical care beds per capita for her citizens than Canada.
> 
> ...


Number 2 is partially, if not totally, false.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...lu-and-coronavirus-respectively-idUSKBN20X34L

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Number 2 is partially, if not totally, false.


Wrong.
Read your link again.

*While Obama personally declared H1N1 an emergency in October 2009, when over a thousand had died (see here ), *the "Secretary of Health and Human Services first declared a public health emergency" on April 26, 2009. Statements that say Obama and his administration waited until 1,000 had died before declaring an emergency often ignore this April 26, 2009 Government announcement (see it here ). The claim that there were 1,000 deaths when a public health emergency was declared under Obama's administration was therefore false.

Read my post again.

*President Obama declared a National Emergency after 1000 Americans died from the H1N1 Pandemic and 4 MONTHS after the WHO declared it a pandemic.* Total American deaths rose to 12 THOUSAND under Obama.

My reference was to the Presidential Statements clearly and specifically.
The Presidential declarations are different in both scope and legal authorization from the lower administrative actions your link referenced.

https://www.astho.org/Programs/Prep...ency-Declarations-and-Authorities-Fact-Sheet/


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah. They declared a national public health emergency, which specifically released funds for research and assistance to the states before anyone had died. 

Specifically, it allocated money to the states for testing, vaccine development, coordination between the states and federal government, etc. Which does exactly what a National Emergency does, but within a more specific framework and organizations. As authorized by the Public Health Service Act, which is included in the link you provided, in the Federal Emergency Authorizations and Declarations section. 

What I’m getting at here is that it is a type of national emergency authorized by law, to do specific things. 

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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

It's not complete in facts, meant to discredit. 1 in 5 were infected globally by the swine flu, and the death rate was 0.02% of infected, compared to 1% for COVID-19.

Difference between national emergency and public health emergency is how their funds are allotted. Public health emergency fund is currently empty (already spent on cases like addressing how 150 Americans a week are dying from opioid overdoses), getting $50 million and $85 million in annual budgets recently. Not much at all in the grand scheme of things. Obama wanted to fund it with almost 2 billion before his term was over. He wanted 9 billion funded into it during swine flu. He wanted to replenish it after Zika. Republicans had House and Senate majority, so he didn't get his wish. The National Emergency fund is much larger. Trump ordered $50 billion released from it. Now they're considering trillions.

Obama didn't sit around like Trump did, downplaying it. He declared emergency as soon as the first cases in April '09 (same month as cases appeared in the US). As the vaccine was made, and supply was lagging, he bolstered it by getting more funding from the national emergency fund. Just a matter of pulling money out of different accounts. If the Public Health Emergency fund had $50 billion, it'd be more appropriate to use that. 

Is this National Emergency "fund" tied to the deficit? Do people not smell the opportunity for corruption here, collecting cash for no real value in product/services? Should it really cost this much? The bailouts and stimulus package are tied to deficit for sure. The 2008 bank and auto bailout turned a profit for govt. This proposal giving 500 bill of "free money" (more like a loan,) to the general public. Imagine trying to collectively pay this debt down; probably not gonna be a time of much growth.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

When u defend a super duper genius who ignores Hawaii is part of USA
that is a great joke
when u consider killing students at top rate over any counttry
... ...
a good bet is those 2 last who are against the planet
got their diplomas bought by family $$


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

At this point it is pointless to try to apportion blame for what happened before and what is happening now. Let's leave that for November when I hope intelligent people will realize the damage being done now, and not be driven by the health of their stock portfolio, but rather by the health of this country. Should be a no-brainer. 
I read today that 2 asteroids are approaching Earth, and will cause atmospheric disruption when they get here and burn up. With our luck, this will kill off Covid 19 and your feckless leader will claim it was his plan for that to happen all along. "I brought you a mirrracle!!!"
His disciples will throw up their hands in supplication, and voila, another 4 years of killing the spirit of the US.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> At this point it is pointless to try to apportion blame for what happened before and what is happening now. Let's leave that for November when I hope intelligent people will realize the damage being done now, and not be driven by the health of their stock portfolio, but rather by the health of this country. Should be a no-brainer.
> I read today that 2 asteroids are approaching Earth, and will cause atmospheric disruption when they get here and burn up. With our luck, this will kill off Covid 19 and your feckless leader will claim it was his plan for that to happen all along. "I brought you a mirrracle!!!"
> His disciples will throw up their hands in supplication, and voila, another 4 years of killing the spirit of the US.


So which is it, wait until November or continue to take every opportunity to further an agenda to alienate and agitate half of the country by politicizing a global pandemic?


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> So which is it, wait until November or continue to take every opportunity to further an agenda to alienate and agitate half of the country by politicizing a global pandemic?


It is not political, it is pointing out how badly he has bungled the response. Now he is being forced to act, but even now, it is piecemeal and incoherent. Just my biased opinion again. I am not trying to score political points, I just want some sensible and complete action to protect our health.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

rockerc said:


> It is not political, it is pointing out how badly he has bungled the response. Now he is being forced to act, but even now, it is piecemeal and incoherent. Just my biased opinion again. I am not trying to score political points, I just want some sensible and complete action to protect our health.


I think the political system bungled this pandemic, hard, however I think most administrations would have done the same. However the disparaging and politicizing comments from the current president and his cronies has not helped. Even now the president still is calling this the Chinese virus, which is just a continuation of his white centric response to most things.

However the amazing thing is the majority of Americans that have something to lose have been able to assess the situation and do the right thing. I am in Seattle and have watched our city do the right thing at every step of the way. Unfortunately the federal level failed the state when the first case came to light, then bungling at the State level in shutting down airports and restricting travel early didn't help, and then at the city level they took too long to close the schools (however they needed to ensure that the free and reduced children had a plan in place to ensure that they weren't just being unceremoniously dumped in empty house with no food so it kind of made sense).

Even with this slow response many people just immediately self-isolated so that the medical community could do their work, and they reduced their and their immediately contacts risks. There are still people that are taking kids on playdates and such but selfishness is a human characteristic as is shortsightedness. My kids won't die if they don't get to play with their friends for a duration of time, they wouldn't lose college prospects because they missed a couple of months of school, but they might spread the virus to a neighbor, or a neighbor's grandparents, or their grandparents, or our neighbor with cancer, or our neighbor with asthma, who might die, all because we were selfish enough to demand that our kids play with other kids, or we should have the right to play at a park, or whatever.

Like I have seen elsewhere: "our parents and grandparents were asked to serve the country in a war, we are being asked to serve the country comfortably at home, one should not complain about our level of sacrifice, ever."


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Coronavirus was discovered in the U.S. on the SAME DAY it was discovered in South Korea.

They mobilized their entire society and it is now contained.

Trump called it a hoax and it’s now out of control.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> I think the political system bungled this........
> However the amazing thing is the majority of Americans that have something to lose have been able to assess the situation and do the right thing. I am in Seattle and have watched our city do the right thing at every step of the way. Unfortunately the federal level failed the state when the first case came to light, then bungling at the State level in shutting down airports and restricting travel early didn't help, and then at the city level they took too long to close the schools (however they needed to ensure that the free and reduced children had a plan in place to ensure that they weren't just being unceremoniously dumped in empty house with no food so it kind of made sense)............
> 
> Even with this slow response many people just immediately self-isolated so that the medical community could do their work, and they reduced their and their immediately contacts risks........
> ...


Good points.
You can't rely on Government, or any so disconnected group of bureaucrats to take immediate personal action of the nature most required in such situations. No matter the party.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

mudflap said:


> Coronavirus was discovered in the U.S. on the SAME DAY it was discovered in South Korea.
> 
> They mobilized their entire society and it is now contained.
> 
> Trump called it a hoax and it's now out of control.


He never called the virus a hoax.
This has been proved to be simply more political propagandizing time and again.
It is a manufactured DNC talking point.
The US House and Nancy Pelosi were busy trying to hamstring him while this pandemic was ramping up with a hopelessly dead end impeachment.
She even sat on that to delay resolution.



> Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

I heard him.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

mudflap said:


> I heard him.


Post the link in its full context.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

He called it a Democrat hoax. Whatever. He said a lot of things that were irresponsible and false all the way from when this thing first came to light. That is all well-documented. He is the poster boy for denial of the seriousness of CV 19's danger. But then, another thing, he always knew it was a pandemic (quote) even tho he consistently said otherwise for the last few weeks. That is recorded fact too. 

I know you would find it hard to believe, but I would be equally critical of whoever was in the WH if they behaved like this.

I also do get Rockcrusher's point, but with all of the precedent in the rest of the world to go on, measures have been extremely slow to be instituted at every level except a few States who responded as well as they were able.

I am no expert on medical matters, but even I was saying that a huge effort was needed immediately to extend testing and critical care back in mid Feb. after I saw and heard from friends what was going on in Italy and elsewhere. If I could figure that out, why not our leaders?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

He called the effort by democrats to blame him for it a hoax.
As you said, the country can replace him with Joe Biden if they wish in November.

Good luck with the genius of that.....
Italy and England both have Nationalized Healthcare.

As for me, I’m not smart enough to run the country.
But I’m smart enough to assess Biden.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

My wife is really worried about it.

I told her the only way to guarantee that coronavirus does not kill me, is to put a garbage bag over my head and a cable tie around my neck, to keep the coronavirus out.

100% guaranteed the coronavirus won't kill me with that method


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> Post the link in its full context.


this what you want


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> He called the effort by democrats to blame him for it a hoax.
> As you said, the country can replace him with Joe Biden if they wish in November.
> 
> Good luck with the genius of that.....
> ...


Pedantics. "This is their new hoax" were his exact words on Feb 28 at a rally in NY. Whatever his meaning, I am sure he is not unaware of the fact that many of his disciples will have taken the meaning to be that the virus is a hoax.

As for Biden, we shall see, but I am not as huge fan myself. In my biased opinion however, he is a massive improvement to what we have.

What is your point about nationalized healthcare in Italy and the UK?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> What is your point about nationalized healthcare in Italy and the UK?


Their system is put forth as a results oriented solution. Not sure I embrace the current results. Italy pretty much made its case by now. The UK is not showing great promise so far. Watched an Amanpour interview early this week and the UK spokesperson blamed all of the faults on under funding.....I thought it was free.

It isn't pedantic to note the difference between calling a virus a hoax, and calling a political tactic a hoax.
Not at all.
Psychoanalysis notwithstanding.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Italy has a better system than the UK right now. Kudos to the herculean efforts being put in by the staff there.

The NHS (UK) has been consistently underfunded in the last decade, with the private sector getting a larger and larger share of the 'business' out there. The NHS are in the process of closing a bunch of hospitals, and yet they have just paid for the use of 8000 private beds. With taxpayer money. I have no doubt that the current Govt are doing their best to continue privatisation of the health service so it will become something like the service here. That will effectively curtail free medical treatment for very many who simply cannot afford it. 

Medical staff are overwhelmed even without a huge influx of CV cases, and I am extremely worried for the welfare of family there.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I appreciate your concern.
No easy fixes.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

One of the things that makes Italy a less than ideal place to use as an example is their demographics and housing structure. They have one of the oldest, if not the oldest populations on earth, in multi-generational homes. Oh, and a lot of smokers, which doesn’t exactly help when your talking about a pandemic that kills via pneumonia. 

I can definitely picture certain portions of the US getting hit harder than others, based on statistics such as obesity, smoking, etc. 


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

"Wuhan, China. Qom, Iran. Lombardy, Italy. The three most hard-hit places in terms of Coronavirus cases and deaths. Common sense says there should be a factor they all share. Could it be air quality?"

https://medium.com/@fcameronlister/c...r-45964b2f5b37


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

This is a very good personal article written by an ER physician at the hospital I work at. He treated the first COVID 19 patient in Canada

https://torontolife.com/city/i-trea...patient-in-canada-a-toronto-er-doctors-story/

I'm working everyday (around the clock) through this. I am a nurse but also patient care manager for 3 large teams with over 75 staff reporting to me. We are doing the best we can. This morning I had a patient scream at me to tell me I wasn't doing enough to keep him safe. I know I can't take it personally but it hurts to hear those words...I tell myself: people are scared and behave badly. We are trying to keep up with regulations and policies, while trying our best to instill confidence and professionalism in the care provided. Then we go home to our families and enjoy what we have.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Fuse6F said:


> this what you want


Yep, right at 3:52.

Gotta love his quote yesterday:

"People are dying right now that have never died before. "

That's Yogi Berra-worthy.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> "Wuhan, China. Qom, Iran. Lombardy, Italy. The three most hard-hit places in terms of Coronavirus cases and deaths. Common sense says there should be a factor they all share. Could it be air quality?"
> 
> https://medium.com/@fcameronlister/c...r-45964b2f5b37


Interesting but doesn't unsubstantiate my no pork theory.

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MattMay said:


> Yep, right at 3:52.
> 
> Gotta love his quote yesterday:
> 
> ...


Wrong again.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-quote-never-died-before/

It might be good practice to back up your hearsay rumor when you post it. Otherwise you are perpetuating the hoax.

At 3:52 he did not say the virus was a hoax. If you watch the rest of the video he clearly speaks about closing borders to head it off.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> This is a very good personal article written by an ER physician at the hospital I work at. He treated the first COVID 19 patient in Canada
> 
> https://torontolife.com/city/i-trea...patient-in-canada-a-toronto-er-doctors-story/
> 
> I'm working everyday (around the clock) through this. I am a nurse but also patient care manager for 3 large teams with over 75 staff reporting to me. We are doing the best we can. This morning I had a patient scream at me to tell me I wasn't doing enough to keep him safe. I know I can't take it personally but it hurts to hear those words...I tell myself: people are scared and behave badly. We are trying to keep up with regulations and policies, while trying our best to instill confidence and professionalism in the care provided. Then we go home to our families and enjoy what we have.


You are truly the unsung heroes. Thank you so much, sincerely.

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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Despite being self sequestered at home (big snowstorm going), I am not yet bored enough to follow this thread.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Beautiful Irony.....


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

My daughter works in the ER as a charge nurse. A month ago, she had to start hiding masks and other PPE because doctors were hoarding the supplies. I have a cousin who is a doctor who confessed to the same behavior. I wonder to what extent this is continuing?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Usually the best place to look for rule breakers is amongst and around rule makers.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Ozark, you can’t use some website to “fact check” people actually seeing and hearing things. Watch the video dude.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MattMay said:


> Ozark, you can't use some website to "fact check" people actually seeing and hearing things. Watch the video dude.


Read my post again. I watched the video.
I went back and added that point since you read the initial post.
Where is the video with the latest quote you posted?
"People are dying right now that have never died before. "


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I suspect retrospectively there are going to be some interesting revelations concerning effective measures both medically and economically, as well as consequences of media and political implications.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

I suspect this virus response is going to sink the Trumptanic, insha'Allah.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> I suspect this virus response is going to sink the Trumptanic, insha'Allah.


Did Allah put him in the Whitehouse?


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

Sooo... I have another question.. as you all probably know the U.S. doesn't have a really solid track record on keeping people from Mexico ..etc countries to the south from crossing our border illegally.

and Mexico's response to the virus so far is pretty terrible... what happens when / if we start getting this under control here but to the south it continues to be a ****show, and people keep crossing the border illegally?

My wife talked to a friend / coworker who is now in Mexico City and he said so far it is business as usual there, nobody really doing anything different..

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...erves-with-coronavirus-strategy-idUSKBN214476

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ses-diabetes-china-supermarkets-a9408671.html


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The cool thing is idiots who believe Prutt will die in high numbers 
they were told this is all a lie
you the 10 billions excusesssss why things look bad
never believe whatever makes an orange alien 
look/sound bad
their guns will not save them
a younger Prutt will replace that old one
no more election
just like russia


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The cool thing is idiots who believe Prutt will die in high numbers


Interesting and insightful.
Another teachable moment.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

33red said:


> The cool thing is idiots who believe Prutt will die in high numbers
> they were told this is all a lie
> you the 10 billions excusesssss why things look bad
> never believe whatever makes an orange alien
> ...


lol...wat?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> This is a very good personal article written by an ER physician at the hospital I work at. He treated the first COVID 19 patient in Canada
> 
> https://torontolife.com/city/i-trea...patient-in-canada-a-toronto-er-doctors-story/
> 
> I'm working everyday (around the clock) through this. I am a nurse but also patient care manager for 3 large teams with over 75 staff reporting to me. We are doing the best we can. This morning I had a patient scream at me to tell me I wasn't doing enough to keep him safe. I know I can't take it personally but it hurts to hear those words...I tell myself: people are scared and behave badly. We are trying to keep up with regulations and policies, while trying our best to instill confidence and professionalism in the care provided. Then we go home to our families and enjoy what we have.


Thank you, and most of us really appreciate what you are doing. I think in some cases people expect a guarantee of normalcy and perfection, and that is not going to be possible right now.

My daughter is working at a dr.s office full time as a CMT and taking classes in preparation to apply to PA school. As soon as her current class ends, she is going to apply for a job helping in the ER. I worry a little, but told her it is a great thing to do. It is a big challenge as frontline healthcare workers are at high risk to catch this disease, and when that happens it takes a long time to get a negative test.

That is why I support the isolation measures for the time being. Just to try to prevent overloading the healthcare system more that we already have.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

The Diamond Princess was the ship where the passengers were essentially trapped, awaiting release after being together with the infected. It was like rolling around in a petri dish full of the virus.

During the cruise, before anyone knew anything was amiss, they ate together, engaged in whatever activities the "newlyweds and nearlydeads" engage in on a cruise ship while crew cleaned up after them, fed them, etc.

Yet, only 17% got infected.

1. Why such a low percentage?
2. Does this mean anything in predicting transmissibility?

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v2.full.pdf


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

”Newlyweds and Nearlydeads”
LMAO.....


But to the point,
A voluntary controlled experiment.....
Interesting stuff.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

rockcrusher said:


> lol...wat?


he's off his meds, just smile and nod while backing away slowly


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> He never called the virus a hoax.


He did. He also said "there are only 15 cases in the US and soon there will be none" despite every expert telling him otherwise.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID-19: results of an open label non-randomized clinical trial

A French study regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (a zinc ionophore and an immune response mediator) with azithromycin (think Z-pac) in fighting the COVID-19 infection:

https://www.mediterranee-infection....2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf

The South Koreans have been using Hydroxychloroquine alone extensively in the outbreak, so there should be some data forthcoming. Their mortality rates are pretty low.

Quercetin is also a zinc ionophore, but in large doses on the order of 50 grams of quercetin per kg of body weight.

Two initiatives should help expedite treatments IF they become available.

1. About a year ago, the FDA to put into place the "compassionate use" policy".

"Sometimes called "compassionate use", expanded access is a potential pathway for a patient with an immediately life-threatening condition or serious disease or condition to gain access to an investigational medical product (drug, biologic, or medical device) for treatment outside of clinical trials when no comparable or satisfactory alternative therapy options are available."

https://www.fda.gov/.../public-healt...xpanded-access

2. The Right to Try Act, or the Trickett Wendler, Frank Mongiello, Jordan McLinn, and Matthew Bellina Right to Try Act, was signed into law May 30, 2018. This law is another way for patients who have been diagnosed with life-threatening diseases or conditions who have tried all approved treatment options and who are unable to participate in a clinical trial to access certain unapproved treatments.

https://www.fda.gov/patients/learn-about-expanded-access-and-other-treatment-options/right-try

Remdesivir is another RdRP (RNA-dependent RNA Polymerase) inhibiting drug that could be expedited through this process. The POSSIBLE effect of zinc ionophores is to get the zinc into cells where - in vitro - it has been shown to interrupt this process that coronaviruses use to translate mRNA for viral replication.

Events have proceeded too fast to have double blind test data on any of this, so the information is pretty preliminary.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yeah, I just saw the announcement about chloroquine, warned my wife to expect a rush on this medication.

Keep in mind that this is still a big unknown if and how well this chloroquine will work for a virus. Realistically, since there have been viral outbreaks in the past and chloroquine has never been used to treat a virus, I'm hesitant to believe it'll make a difference.

If you die from the cure, you are still dead.

So here's some reading material from UpToDate:

"Adverse Reactions
Frequency not defined.
Cardiovascular: Atrioventricular block, bundle branch block, cardiac arrhythmia, cardiomyopathy, ECG changes (including prolonged QRS and QTc intervals, T-wave inversion, or depression), hypotension, torsades de pointes, ventricular fibrillation, ventricular tachycardia

Central nervous system: Agitation, anxiety, confusion, decreased deep tendon reflex, delirium, depression, extrapyramidal reaction (dystonia, dyskinesia, protrusion of the tongue, torticollis), hallucination, headache, insomnia, motor dysfunction (sensorimotor disorder), personality changes, polyneuropathy, psychosis, seizure, suicidal tendencies

Dermatologic: Alopecia, bleaching of hair, blue gray skin pigmentation, erythema multiforme, exacerbation of psoriasis, exfoliative dermatitis, lichen planus, pleomorphic rash, pruritus, skin photosensitivity, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis, urticaria

Endocrine & metabolic: Hypoglycemia

Gastrointestinal: Abdominal cramps, anorexia, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting

Hematologic & oncologic: Agranulocytosis (reversible), aplastic anemia, hemolytic anemia (in G6PD-deficient patients), neutropenia, pancytopenia, thrombocytopenia

Hepatic: Hepatitis, increased liver enzymes

Hypersensitivity: Anaphylactoid reaction, anaphylaxis, angioedema

Immunologic: DRESS syndrome

Neuromuscular & skeletal: Myopathy, neuromuscular disease, proximal myopathy

Ophthalmic: Accommodation disturbances, blurred vision, corneal opacity (reversible), macular degeneration (may be irreversible), maculopathy (may be irreversible), nocturnal amblyopia, retinopathy (including irreversible changes in some patients' long-term or high-dose therapy), transient scotomata, visual field defects

Otic: Deafness (nerve), hearing loss (risk increased in patients with preexisting auditory damage), tinnitus

Contraindications
Hypersensitivity to chloroquine, 4-aminoquinoline compounds, or any component of the formulation; the presence of retinal or visual field changes of any etiology (when used for indications other than acute malaria)

Warnings/Precautions
Concerns related to adverse effects:

• Cardiovascular effects: Cases of cardiomyopathy resulting in cardiac failure (sometimes fatal) have been reported during long term therapy at high doses. Monitor for signs and symptoms of cardiomyopathy; discontinue if cardiomyopathy develops. Consider chronic toxicity and discontinue chloroquine if conduction disorders (bundle branch block/AV block) are diagnosed. QT prolongation, torsade de pointes, and ventricular arrhythmias (some fatal) have been reported; risk is increased with high doses. Use with caution in patients with cardiac disease, history of ventricular arrhythmias, uncorrected hypokalemia and/or hypomagnesemia, or bradycardia, and during concomitant administration with QT interval prolonging agents due to potential for QT prolongation. In a scientific statement from the American Heart Association, chloroquine has been determined to be an agent that may either cause direct myocardial toxicity or exacerbate underlying myocardial dysfunction (magnitude: major) (AHA [Page 2016]).

• Extrapyramidal effects: Acute extrapyramidal disorders may occur, usually resolving after discontinuation of therapy and/or symptomatic treatment.

• Hematologic effects: Rare hematologic reactions including reversible agranulocytosis, aplastic anemia, neutropenia, pancytopenia, and thrombocytopenia have been reported; monitor CBC during prolonged therapy. Consider discontinuation if severe blood disorders occur that are unrelated to disease.

• Hypoglycemia: Severe hypoglycemia, including loss of consciousness, has been reported in patients treated with or without antidiabetic agents. Counsel patients about risk of hypoglycemia and associated signs and symptoms.

• Neuromuscular effects: Skeletal muscle myopathy or neuromyopathy, leading to progressive weakness and atrophy of proximal muscle groups have been reported; muscle strength (especially proximal muscles) should be assessed periodically during prolonged therapy; discontinue therapy if weakness occurs.

• Retinal toxicity: Retinal toxicity, potentially causing irreversible retinopathy, is predominantly associated with high daily doses and a duration of >5 years of use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of rheumatic diseases. Other major risk factors include concurrent tamoxifen use, renal impairment, lower body weight, and potentially the presence of macular disease. Risk is most accurately assessed on the basis of duration of use relative to daily dose/body weight (Marmor [AAO 2016]; Melles 2014). Based on these risks, the American Academy of Ophthalmology (AAO) recommends not exceeding a daily chloroquine phosphate dosage of 2.3 mg/kg using actual body weight. Previous recommendations to use ideal body weight are no longer advised; very thin patients in particular were at increased risk for retinal toxicity using this practice. Current AAO guidelines do not specifically address dosing in obese patients. AAO also recommends baseline screening for retinal toxicity and annual screening beginning after 5 years of use (or sooner if major risk factors are present) (Marmor [AAO 2016]).

Disease-related concerns:

• Auditory damage: Use with caution in patients with preexisting auditory damage; discontinue immediately if hearing defects are noted.

• G6PD deficiency: Although the manufacturer's labeling recommends chloroquine be used with caution in patients with G6PD deficiency due to a potential for hemolytic anemia, there is limited data to support this risk. Many experts consider chloroquine, when given in usual therapeutic doses to WHO Class II and III G6PD deficient patients, to probably be safe (Cappellini 2008; Glader 2017; Luzzatto 2016; Youngster 2010). Safety in Class I G6PD deficiency (ie, severe form of the deficiency associated with chronic hemolytic anemia) is generally unknown (Glader 2017). In a trial conducted in West Africa involving 74 G6PD deficient patients (predominantly Class III deficiency), there were no cases of hemolysis reported following exposure to usual doses of chloroquine (Mandi 2005). In addition, the ACR Rheumatology guidelines do not mention the need to evaluate G6PD levels prior to initiation of therapy (Singh 2015).

• Hepatic impairment: Use with caution in patients with hepatic impairment, alcoholism, or concurrent therapy with hepatotoxic agents.

• Porphyria: Use with caution in patients with porphyria; may exacerbate disease symptoms.

• Psoriasis: Use with caution in patients with psoriasis; may exacerbate disease symptoms.

• Seizure disorder: Use with caution in patients with a history of seizure disorder; may cause seizures.

Concurrent drug therapy issues: Lots of interactions, too many to list.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, I just saw the announcement about chloroquine, warned my wife to expect a rush on this medication.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is still a big unknown if and how well this chloroquine will work for a virus. Realistically, since there have been viral outbreaks in the past and chloroquine has never been used to treat a virus, I'm hesitant to believe it'll make a difference.
> 
> ...


Little blue Pill.
If you have a boner for 4 hours, call your doctor.
I'm calling a couple of hookers. 

These are just possible therapies that doctors can make judgement calls on, not me. But I, and many ex-military can remember taking chloroquine for months at low dosages. Standard military care was, "here take this. Don't ***** about the effects"!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> He did. He also said "there are only 15 cases in the US and soon there will be none" despite every expert telling him otherwise.


If you can't back it up......
'Nuff said.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> If you can't back it up......
> 'Nuff said.


Everyone heard it except the deaf, a link was posted in another thread. The emperor has no clothes.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Everyone heard it except the deaf, a link was posted in another thread. The emperor has no clothes.


The link confirmed the fallacy of your statement.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Everyone heard it except the deaf,


Forgot to mention the blind.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> The link confirmed the fallacy of your statement.


forgot to mention the blind.


----------



## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

I heard him say it also


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

It’s spreading....LMAO.
Just like the Toilet Paper Panic.
The Big Lie Fallacy.

This is unfolding into an incredible learning experience.....


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

He said weather next month will make it go away
blamed himself for markets up
blamed otherssss for down
a true super genius
a rare leader


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Leave it to mtbr to turn the op's rational preventative-measures suggestions into another political poo-flinging contest...Whoda thunk it?
Nurse Ben, Cyclelicious and other front-liners...Thank you.


----------



## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Meanwhile, in CA, Gov. Newsome just announced strict new rules that have us seniors in the crosshairs. We are to remain sequestered, preferably out of sight, in our respective abodes. He further states that at this time there are no plans to euthanize seniors caught violating this Executive Order on sight. I for one, ain't a-skeered of no coppers. I'm going for a ride, solo, like usual. And DON'T try to stop me. I've got the Vest on. Surprisingly comfortable.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Get after it, Ray! :thumbsup:


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Smore Rolling Stone for y'all.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...dumped-stock-coronavirus-preparedness-970069/

He also has the misfortune of being taped speaking to the super affluent while throwing the public (of which he is a paid servant) under the bus. We've lost our way, BIGLY.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

^^Was just reading about that.


----------



## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

Time for Hookers and Blow!


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Phillbo said:


> Time for Hookers and Blow!


Paging @Harold


----------



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> If you can't back it up......
> 'Nuff said.


this what you wanted

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...rumps-false-or-misleading-coronavirus-claims/


----------



## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

> Fact Check: Chloroquine has not been approved by the FDA to treat the coronavirus -- and nor has any other drug, the FDA made clear in a post-briefing statement that said "there are no FDA-approved therapeutics or drugs to treat, cure or prevent COVID-19." Because chloroquine has been approved for other purposes, doctors are legally allowed to prescribe it for the unapproved or "off-label" use of treating the coronavirus if they want. But its safety and effectiveness has not been proven with regard to the coronavirus. FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn, speaking after Trump at the briefing, said that chloroquine would be tested through a "large, pragmatic clinical trial" with coronavirus patients


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/politics/fact-check-chloroquine-trump-fda/index.html


----------



## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

What was this thread about again.... ?


----------



## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

I'm looking at body weight exercises now.


----------



## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

What about all those snot rockets we leave trailside?


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, I just saw the announcement about chloroquine, warned my wife to expect a rush on this medication.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is still a big unknown if and how well this chloroquine will work for a virus. Realistically, since there have been viral outbreaks in the past and chloroquine has never been used to treat a virus, I'm hesitant to believe it'll make a difference.
> 
> ...


Not going there anytime soon! Just more lying to cover up the true seriousness of this.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

scycllerist said:


> What about all those snot rockets we leave trailside?


Like little nuclear fallout bombs... steer clear!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“Because chloroquine has been approved for other purposes, doctors are legally allowed to prescribe it for the unapproved or "off-label" use of treating the coronavirus if they want. But its safety and effectiveness has not been proven with regard to the coronavirus. FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn, speaking after Trump at the briefing, said that chloroquine would be tested through a "large, pragmatic clinical trial" with coronavirus patients.“


----------



## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

33red said:


> The cool thing is idiots who believe Prutt will die in high numbers
> they were told this is all a lie
> you the 10 billions excusesssss why things look bad
> never believe whatever makes an orange alien
> ...


picard? off meds?


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

THe Diamond Princess provides some usable data that bears repeating.

"As of February 20, tests of most of the 3,711 people aboard the Diamond Princess confirmed that 634, or 17 percent, had the virus; 328 of them did not have symptoms at the time of diagnosis. Of those with symptoms, the fatality ratio was 1.9 percent, Russell and colleagues calculate. Of all infected, that ratio was 0.91 percent. Those 70 and older were most vulnerable, with an overall fatality ratio of about 7.3 percent."

With a 17% infection rate on a ship where the ventilation probably spread the virus, it strains credulity for the Governor of California to predict a 56% infection rate state wide.

As to a 7.3% CFR in those over 70, we have 17 year old data on that as well.

Regarding that high fatality rate, there was an outbreak of Human Coronavirus OC43 Infection (not COVID-19 - there are 4 endemic coronavirus subtypes), in 2003 in British Columbia that had a case fatality rate of 8%.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095096/

On a slightly different note, the value of contemporaneous observation (Vs. double blind type studies - which ARE invaluable!) shouldn't be undervalued.
The Milk Maid story of cowpox/smallpox is actually a myth, but the truth is just as interesting!

1768:
"...We found in this practice that a great number of patients could not be infected with Small Pox poison, not withstanding repeated exposure under most favourable circumstances for taking the disease. At length the cause of the failure was discovered from the case of a farmer who was inoculated (inoculated for smallpox at the time meant inoculated WITH the smallpox virus, not cowpox) several times ineffectually, yet he assured us that he had never suffered the Small Pox, but, says he, "I have had the Cow Pox lately to a violent degree, if that's any odds." We took the hint, and, on enquiry, found that those who were uninfectable had undergone the Cow Pox...."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3758677/


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> It's spreading....LMAO.
> Just like the Toilet Paper Panic.
> The Big Lie Fallacy.
> 
> This is unfolding into an incredible learning experience.....


Unfortunately, you're unlikely to learn anything. Proved that time and again.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

That is so funny that learning thing.
Remember the big banner mission accomplished.
That was Bush/republicans HUGE LIE.
Enough are brainwashed enough to vote republican again.
You are in a HUGE HOLE.
You do not see it but you are cooked.
We even BANNED YOU.
This should be on the joke thread.
My brother got a refund for his 6 weeks planned in Florida.
HUGE DEFICITSSSSSSS$$$$$$
tiny income
that PRUNT legacy.


----------



## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

So far, what I have read in this thread there are two people qualified to make any medical-based or scientifically conceived qualifications about what is happening with the spread of coronavirus. Both of them are medically trained professionals.

Everyone else talking about how this disease functions, could be treated, or will possibly resolve are acting like scientists without knowing how physics work. Please, just stop posting your inane replies. I understand you want to say something, probably because you are afraid like we all are. Please post about what you are doing to help yourself get through this tough time, but please don't post about stuff you have little or no knowledge of. Lets stop making this political. This disease is an equal opportunity destroyer; it doesn't care what color you are, what gender you are, what your sexual orientation is, who you pray to, what economic class you come from, where you live, nothing.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> That is so funny that learning thing.
> Remember the big banner mission accomplished.
> That was Bush/republicans HUGE LIE.
> Enough are brainwashed enough to vote republican again.
> ...


Tommy Franks corrected the "Mission Accomplished" lie you are promoting.
Read his Book.
Here is a transcript of the Tommy Franks interview.
Read it straight from the General in command.
CNN.com - Transcripts
He requested Bush do that as a personal favor in appreciation to the troops.
Get your facts straight and enough of the personal threats, wishing death on people here, and personal insults and name calling.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

As of 2017 data the overall death rate in the U.S. was 863.8 deaths per 100,000 population which translates into a death rate of 8.6%.

In the last 21 days about 160,000 Americans died. Take out COVID-19 deaths and the total is 159,782.
In the mean time we've almost completely shut down the U.S.
This can't go on forever.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17...e-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I expect retrospect will not be kind......


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> As of 2017 data the overall death rate in the U.S. was 863.8 deaths per 100,000 population which translates into a death rate of 8.6%.
> 
> In the last 21 days about 160,000 Americans died. Take out COVID-19 deaths and the total is 159,782.
> In the mean time we've almost completely shut down the U.S.
> ...


Your numbers are correct. You may be right, or not, in your conclusion that the epidemiologists are overreacting.

Impossible to know where we are on the infection curve without adequate testing for the virus, which we still do not have. We are very far from containing this. The lack of testing, testing protocol, and the suspected number of asymptomatic carriers will make this especially hard.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

veloborealis said:


> Your numbers are correct. You may be right, or not, in your conclusion that the epidemiologists are overreacting.
> 
> Impossible to know where we are on the infection curve without adequate testing for the virus, which we still do not have. We are very far from containing this. The lack of testing, testing protocol, and the suspected number of asymptomatic carriers will make this especially hard.


I agree with you.
We need data so that we can at least consider titrating back on our response.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

beastmaster said:


> So far, what I have read in this thread there are two people qualified to make any medical-based or scientifically conceived qualifications about what is happening with the spread of coronavirus. Both of them are medically trained professionals.
> 
> Everyone else talking about how this disease functions, could be treated, or will possibly resolve are acting like scientists without knowing how physics work. Please, just stop posting your inane replies. I understand you want to say something, probably because you are afraid like we all are. Please post about what you are doing to help yourself get through this tough time, but please don't post about stuff you have little or no knowledge of. Lets stop making this political. This disease is an equal opportunity destroyer; it doesn't care what color you are, what gender you are, what your sexual orientation is, who you pray to, what economic class you come from, where you live, nothing.


G maybe you are afraid, that does not mean we are.
You want facts, stop reading because here are some...
sept 11 a few died = very bad terrorists act
now millions will die soon = political situation
????
these are terrible terrorists stop disguising them
Republicans choosed to keep the lying non scientific orange dummy
put them in a room and remove the air we will see if science is usefull.


----------



## SADDLE TRAMP (Aug 26, 2010)

When this is over, we will have the opportunity to make a future response better; both as a country, and on a personal level. We, in recent memory, have not experienced such a world wide event.

As this virus attacks the lungs, what I see is the little reported aspect that China, Korea, Islamic countries, Italy(?) have citizens that are heavy smokers. And China, not well known for its air quality. It would seem that if you are outside those groups, lower severity cases, and death rates would follow. To what extent can that be demonstrated?

Panic feeds panic; it becomes a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation. 

Hydroxychloroquine...when in 'Nam back in '68, they gave it to us once a week, in an effort to prevent Malaria. When I did a search on it, it was stated that the procedure was to start taking it two weeks before entering a known Malaria area. 

But, from what I have heard, the current studies are all about using it after you have contracted the virus...seems like somewhat incomplete testing. Of course, to give evidence...a group study would have to be done of those taking the drug for a period of time, and then purposely become infected. 

When this is over, I see that great changes are possible for the betterment, of this country and our personal lives, to be taken advantage of, more self reliant.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Please don’t let fear be your driver, it only makes you feel bad.

I’m recommending the same things to all my clients:

Practice standard procedures such as hand washing, avoiding touching your eyes, nose, mouth. 

Reduce social contacts and practice social distancing.

Stop watching/reading the news.

The more you get worked up about this, the worse you will feel.

How you feel affects you and those around you.

Last night I met with the family of someone who took their life on Thursday.

Take it a day at a time, think too much and it can get overwhelming.

... and for Pete’s sake, stop being such asshats to each other. If you don’t have something nice to say, just don’t say anything at all.

Be safe, get some exercise, and share your toilet paper 🙄


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> The Diamond Princess was the ship where the passengers were essentially trapped, awaiting release after being together with the infected. It was like rolling around in a petri dish full of the virus.
> 
> During the cruise, before anyone knew anything was amiss, they ate together, engaged in whatever activities the "newlyweds and nearlydeads" engage in on a cruise ship while crew cleaned up after them, fed them, etc.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind many cruise ships live in fear of another virus - Norovirus and have done a good job of keeping that at bay. The fact that the caliciviruses are non enveloped makes them harder to deal with to some degree.

So what I am implying is that cruise ships may not be representative of the overall population as they have been worried about transmittable diseases for a while.

Also infections with enveloped positive RNA viruses tend to disappear in the summer time. I am holding out hope that this happens here.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> Please don't let fear be your driver, it only makes you feel bad.
> 
> I'm recommending the same things to all my clients:
> 
> ...


This is good perspective! Thanks for posting.


----------



## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and for Pete's sake, stop being such asshats to each other. If you don't have something nice to say, just don't say anything at all.
> 
> Be safe, get some exercise, and share your toilet paper 


Thank you and wise words written ^^. It's not one person fault, we are all in this together, and the focus should be positive. Political opinions should be on some other web site please


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Please don't let fear be your driver, it only makes you feel bad.
> 
> I'm recommending the same things to all my clients:
> 
> ...


Sage advice.

I'm hoping that this situation brings out the best in humanity. Sadly, it may bring out the worst.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

chuckha62 said:


> Sage advice.
> 
> I'm hoping that this situation brings out the best in humanity. Sadly, it may bring out the worst.


It usually brings out the nature of people that is otherwise concealed......


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Things still reasonably calm around here, folks behaving well with few exceptions.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

If i was living in the USA i would be pretty sure less than 1 biilon of us would die in the next 3 years. This must be a good feeling less mexicans hoping to get in and many that are in wont last.
Ya we saw them all relaxed at the beach, pricele$$


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

I've discovered something useful that also encourages me to wash my hands more often... Use BOTH sides of the toilet paper!


----------



## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

umm the Governor of California said he expect ~56% of Californians to get the virus in the next 8~weeks..

??? is he insane ???

if true again why bother staying in our houses for weeks 56% is 22.4 million people certainly even with low serious cases percentage that would overwhelm the medical system over this period of time?

I realize the death rate percentage numbers are probably way off due to testing difficulties, unreported case, people who don't know they had it or whatever? but say the death rate is ~1/2 a percent that would be 112,000 dead people in California or 336K~ if the 1.5% numbers I have seen are more accurate...

ummm.... that would suck.... is my math or thinking wrong on this ..is the gov off his nut on this?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Listening to Cuomo on Hannity now......
He intends to begin use of the Malaria drug in NY.

I have to say I was impressed.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

atarione said:


> umm the Governor of California said he expect ~56% of Californians to get the virus in the next 8~weeks..
> 
> ??? is he insane ???
> 
> ...


Nobody knows in any country how many will be dead from this in let say 3 years.
Just looking at some numbers without pretending i know the future.
In the USA maybe 340 millions just for easy calculation 50% get infected,
from those 170 millions 5% die = 8.5 millions = not bad...
but all the debt will crush the world economy
so maybe an other 8.5 millions suicides,,,
and so on.
The repercussion$$$ of repeating daily do not trust the media = no way
you can help control the propagation.
Just look at what is written here.
From what i heard the 56% is what they now consider the worst case scenario 
but time will tell it might be worst or lower.
Betting on that allergy to facts from so many 
the best scenario is definitely not in the future of the USA.
Stocks crash = seniors will work for 1$ an hour to survive,
good luck finding a job at 3$
properties sold for peanuts
you guess it
America Great Again,,, for the slave owners.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Good stuff.....

Learning experience.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> Nobody knows in any country how many will be dead from this in let say 3 years.
> Just looking at some numbers without pretending i know the future.
> In the USA maybe 340 millions just for easy calculation 50% get infected,
> from those 170 millions 5% die = 8.5 millions = not bad...
> ...


Uninformed, grossly and ignorantly exaggerated, politically motivated, and divorced from reality.
Fallacious from the first sentence.


----------



## BALE (Oct 10, 2019)

Nurse Ben and cyclelicious, thank you!


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

I hope not too little too late. The fear is useful I think to get people to listen, but even that does not work without clear and concise facts being given to the population, along with meaningful direction as to what to do and what not to do. Unfortunately there is simply too much dross perpetrated by social media and other sources that just confuses the issue. Then you get the worst in people coming out. 
Common sense is a rare commodity, along with the power of reason and critical thought.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Another interesting video from MedCram.

Small study on Favipiravir, a flu medication. Not peer reviewed and small study only.
A few other bits of updated info.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

As everyone who has any kind of medical background that I have heard says we have to self distance ourselves to slow the spread of this, I find any shelter in place effort not hard to take if that is what it takes to halt the spread. Infection rate predictions vary wildly, but even the not-quite-so-bad predictions are pretty daunting.

Death rates vary quite a bit too, from the Fusco family horror, to something not quite so bad, but whatever we know or don't, right now even the best scenario is also daunting.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

rockerc said:


> At this point it is pointless to try to apportion blame for what happened before and what is happening now. Let's leave that for November when I hope intelligent people will realize the damage being done now, and not be driven by the health of their stock portfolio, but rather by the health of this country. Should be a no-brainer.
> I read today that 2 asteroids are approaching Earth, and will cause atmospheric disruption when they get here and burn up. With our luck, this will kill off Covid 19 and your feckless leader will claim it was his plan for that to happen all along. "I brought you a mirrracle!!!"
> His disciples will throw up their hands in supplication, and voila, another 4 years of killing the spirit of the US.


your post makes me think of this, for some reason:


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Just Gotta beat that TDS drum doncha.



> your post makes me think of this, for some reason:


Interestingly ironic you would post that.
Another statist healthcare system praised by the left....
Masters of Statist Fantasy.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I do not expect Gov. Cuomo is some fantasy driven Trump disciple. But then again he isn’t, as many, in a position to live in some realty challenged dogmatic fantasy world of perpetual all consuming Trumphate either.

“I said to the president, who is a New Yorker, who I’ve known for many, many years. I put my hand out in partnership. I want to work together 100 percent,” Cuomo said during a briefing on the virus, adding that New Yorkers will “do everything they can to be good partners.”

He went on to praise Trump for being “sincere” about working together in “partnership and in the spirit of cooperation.”

“I can tell you the actions he has taken is evidence of that,” the governor said.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Your numbers are correct. You may be right, or not, in your conclusion that the epidemiologists are overreacting.
> 
> Impossible to know where we are on the infection curve without adequate testing for the virus, which we still do not have. We are very far from containing this. The lack of testing, testing protocol, and the suspected number of asymptomatic carriers will make this especially hard.


What will testing do? It will lower the morbidity rate as it will show more people have it than we thought. People are generally assuming they have it if they have the symptoms. It does not make much sense to test someone just for the sake of testing as one could be negative at the time of the test and contract it on the way home. In reality what the testing does is allow people that may think they are symptomatic to not automatically self quarantine if they test negative.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

More good news.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/corona...-care-center-kirkland-washington-geneva-wood/

Neidigh wrote the doctors were able to slowly take her mom off oxygen, and although she still had a stuffy nose on Monday, they expected her to be symptom free very shortly. "She will still need to stay in isolation until she goes through their protocol for being listed as clear and recovered," Neidigh wrote. "If she continues on her current path, she could possibly be discharged to go home in approximately a week."

Neidigh was excited to share the good news about her mom, writing "I think I just exhaled."

"Never underestimate the power of thoughts and prayers! Keep it up, it's working!" the daughter wrote.

Wood has five kids, 11 grandchildren, 12 great-grandchildren and 3 great-great-grandchildren, according to Kate Neidigh's article for Seattle Refined. "The love of her family had been a driving force in everything she did pre-coronavirus. No way was this going to change after-the-fact," she wrote.

Still Learning


----------



## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

I would like to state this in clear terms. If you are taking political snipes (33red, etc), listen up: NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL OPINION OR HOW MUCH YOU HATE THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY POLITICIAN. NOBODY. CARES.


----------



## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

OzarkFathom said:


> I do not expect Gov. Cuomo is some fantasy driven Trump disciple. But then again he isn't, as many, in a position to live in some realty challenged dogmatic fantasy world of perpetual all consuming Trumphate either.
> 
> "I said to the president, who is a New Yorker, who I've known for many, many years. I put my hand out in partnership. I want to work together 100 percent," Cuomo said during a briefing on the virus, adding that New Yorkers will "do everything they can to be good partners."
> 
> ...


Holy crap dude, you feeling okay?

You made 2 positive posts today.
Maybe I'm sick, and delirious and that never happened.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Some not quite so good news for NY:

https://www.military.com/daily-news...spital-ship-comfort-will-deploy-new-york.html

"Weeks away..." I hope this much needed help is not too late.


----------



## SADDLE TRAMP (Aug 26, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> I would like to state this in clear terms. If you are taking political snipes (33red, etc), listen up: NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL OPINION OR HOW MUCH YOU HATE THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY POLITICIAN. NOBODY. CARES.


33red, if you look him up, is not of the USA, and comes off as a USA hating individual.

He reminds me of 'Theodore' that was once a caller on the Lars Larson radio show here in the PNW; with the exception that Theodore was an idealist who loved to discuss matters (without the hatred). The more he was off his meds, the more abstract he became. Lars accommodated him for quite some time, but finally had to ban him.

Perhaps the same should be applied?


----------



## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

33red said:


> *G maybe you are afraid, that does not mean we are.*
> You want facts, stop reading because here are some...
> sept 11 a few died = very bad terrorists act
> now millions will die soon = political situation
> ...


Thank you for your kind words. Ha! Not.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Some not quite so good news for NY:
> 
> https://www.military.com/daily-news...spital-ship-comfort-will-deploy-new-york.html
> 
> "Weeks away..." I hope this much needed help is not too late.


In the Battle of the Corral Sea, the Yorktown was so badly damaged that the estimate was it would take 3 months to repair it. Safety rules were relaxed and 1400 repairmen were sent in to effect repairs before all of the water even drained out of the drydock.
3 days later it was ready to head out to the Battle of Midway!

We can do a lot, if we put our minds to it (and if everyone isn't at home!). Besides, actually BEING in N.Y. harbor isn't required. It's only a short sail up there, and it may not even be needed in the long run. Being able to surge up to the increase in beds is the important capability.

Every U.S. Navy combat ship has some medical capability, though it's mostly in the area of trauma. If nothing else, the trauma patients can be placed on these ships, freeing up beds for the (so far) smaller number of virus patients.

For perspective, from the CDC website for 2012:
"More than 2.5 million people went to the emergency department (ED) - and nearly 200,000 of them were hospitalized - because of motor vehicle crash injuries in 2012, according to the latest Vital Signs report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

That's a lot of beds!


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nurse Ben,

Hopefully you and all of our healthcare providers are getting the equipment you need and are staying safe.

Question for you (and it's obviously WAY too early to know)... Would smokers be considered to be more at risk than non-smokers? Common sense would lead one to believe they are. It seems some of the countries that have been hit the hardest have a higher rate of smokers than the US. 

Extending that (and probably looking for a bright spot), I would think that nonsmoking mountain bikers might be better able to fend off the virus if/when exposed.

Thoughts from healthcare professionals???


----------



## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

Grodyman said:


> I would like to state this in clear terms. If you are taking political snipes (33red, etc), listen up: NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL OPINION OR HOW MUCH YOU HATE THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY POLITICIAN. NOBODY. CARES.


Agreed, 
Lets all just get through this collectively.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Re: coronavirus, "Dr. Anthony Fauci said Thursday that one of the White House coronavirus task force's "top priorities" is developing a procedure to provide antibodies from recovered coronavirus patients to help people who fall ill from the virus, or even to protect them from getting it."

"Passive immunisation for the prevention and treatment of human infectious diseases can be traced back to the 20th century."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781783/

The 1925 serum run to Nome is perhaps the most memorable instance of the use of antitoxins (in this case from horses inoculated against diphtheria) for passive immunization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_serum_run_to_Nome

Diphtheria (back to the Iditerod) is pretty fascinating.

I'm sure some here, current on disease processes can chime in, as my medical background is from 45+ years ago - before going into the Navy!
This is how I remember it, but I would really appreciate it if someone could bring me up to speed.

As I recall, C.Diphtheria produces an S shaped protein molecule held into that shape by a disulphide bond affecting protein folding.

Naturally occurring enzymes (?) in serum cleave that bond straightening the protein and it's then cleaved into a long and short chain. The short chain attaches to mammalian cell membranes and enables the long chain to enter the cell where it attaches to the Ribosomes where it halts protein production (sort of like Erythromycin functions as it binds to the 50s subunit - 20s for tetracycline? - of bacterial ribosomes?) resulting in rapid cell death.

I think the antibodies bind the toxin, but I can't really remember.

Anyway, I think that's the idea here.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, smokers are more at risk, asthma, COPD, emphysema, anything that reduces lung function and resilience.

Autoimmune disorders diminish response to infection.

Once a person is in acute respiratory stress, any underlying health conditions limit response and make recovery more difficult.

The reason the mortality rate was higher in Wuhan is they peaked early and high, they were unable to flatten the curve, so people died due to a lack of critical care treatment.

Rural areas of China fared better because they got ahead of the curve and were able to flatten it substantially.

Flattening the curve is all about spreading out the number of infections over a longer time period, which prevents health services from getting overwhelmed.

So yeah, if you're old and healthy, you're probably at equal or less risk than a younger person who is less healthy.

Being healthy never hurts ?



chuckha62 said:


> Nurse Ben,
> 
> Hopefully you and all of our healthcare providers are getting the equipment you need and are staying safe.
> 
> ...


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, smokers are more at risk, asthma, COPD, emphysema, anything that reduces lung function and resilience.
> 
> Autoimmune disorders diminish response to infection.
> 
> ...


So smoking weed would be a contributing factor.....


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> So smoking weed would be a contributing factor.....


Does that have you worried?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Does that have you worried?


It has me curious.

The E-Cig thing comes to mind as well....

Could lead to higher vulnerability of younger folks...


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Waddayaknow.....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-vaping-drugs/index.html

"[T]he research community should be alert to the possibility that [Covid-19] could hit some populations with substance use disorders particularly hard," Dr. Nora Volkow, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse wrote in a blog post published last week. 
Because Covid-19 attacks the lungs, those who smoke tobacco or marijuana or who vape may be especially threatened, Volkow said.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> It has me curious.


You could probably guess correctly, IME smoking weed can be hard on the lungs and immune system but nothing close to cigs. Occasional tokers need not be concerned IMO.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> You could probably guess correctly, IME smoking weed can be hard on the lungs and immune system but nothing close to cigs. Occasional tokers need not be concerned IMO.


I'm Libertarian on the pot thing, but it does create a conflict of interest issue with state subsidy and taxation.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> I'm Libertarian on the pot thing, but it does create a conflict of interest issue with state subsidy and taxation.


That's bs, do you scrutinize every other aspect of peoples personal lives for the same reason? Like how many coca-colas they drink? Plenty of pot smokers are healthy as fk and loads of non-tokers are not.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> That's bs, do you scrutinize every other aspect of peoples personal lives for the same reason? Like how many coca-colas they drink? Plenty of pot smokers are healthy as fk and loads of non-tokers are not.


No.
You are drawing false conclusions.
Making stuff up.
The state has attempted to regulate diet for years.
Do you understand what "I'm Libertarian" on the pot issue implies?
I'm not talking about the people, I'm talking about the state.
The states sued the hell out of tobacco as a public health issue.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

The funny thing with the comparison to weed is that cig. smokers smoke between a pack and 2 packs (or more) per day. Pot smokers may smoke a few hits a day. Yeah it's not filtered, but the amount is still nowhere near that of cig. smokers.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Same as cigars.....
But I think Willie quit due to what the smoke was doing to his lungs....
I know age was a big factor.
But stories like that are anecdotal so try this......
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5072387/

As most people are aware, marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the world.1 Cannabis is the second most smoked substance, after tobacco. In the past few years, recreational use of cannabis ('weed', 'dope', 'grass', 'spliff', 'toke', 'hash', 'hemp', 'bud', 'ganja' and many others) has had increasing media attention and, with legislation in various countries being relaxed, it appears likely that there will be an increase in exposure generally. However, we still know very little about the long-term effects of smoking cannabis on the respiratory system and on health in general.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> The states sued the hell out of tobacco as a public health issue.


Did they sue the hell out of cow farmers? Or sugar producers? Coal miners?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Not yet....but there have been concerted state efforts to kill some of those industries.

But back to the point, the CNN link also mentioned the link to opioid and Meth use. All of this could apparently raise morbidity rates among the younger age groups.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's bs, *do you scrutinize every other aspect of peoples personal lives *for the same reason? Like how many coca-colas they drink?.


No, like I said I take a Libertarian view of that stuff but COVID-19 might......


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Not yet....but there have been concerted state efforts to kill some of those industries.


Tobacco deserved everything it got, truly an evil industry. Cow farmers and coal soot producers aren't quite as bad but still deserve a decent spanking.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Tobacco deserved everything it got, truly an evil industry. Cow farmers and coal soot producers aren't quite as bad but still deserve a decent spanking.


Well then, it would appear you are more into spanking than I.
Interesting.
Still learning.
How do you feel about spanking pharmaceutical companies about now....

Tobacco is a plant. The industrialization, monetization, marketing, taxation and state subsidy is what helped make it a national health issue.

Do we see all those things happening again around another plant?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> No, but COVID-19 might......


That's messed up.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's messed up.


No it certainly is not.
It is the central point of the research in the current fight to assess and combat the virus.
Viruses do not discriminate, they reproduce in any suitable environment they find.

The virus is turning out to be a scale tipper of very broad proportion.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> .
> Viruses do not discriminate, they reproduce in any suitable environment they find.


Yep, like you. Or me. Or just about anyone.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, like you. Or me. Or just about anyone.


You are letting your personal bias distract you from the point.
I'll leave you to it......


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's messed up.


No, it's actually likely. Anything that one does to cause distress to the lungs is likely to raise one's risk factor. Plenty of doctors have been raising that concern.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

My personal bias that agrees that viruses don't discriminate? I guess you got me there.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> No, it's actually likely. Anything that one does to cause distress to the lungs is likely to raise one's risk factor. Plenty of doctors have been raising that concern.


Like breathing air that's polluted by soot producers and suv drivers?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Like breathing air that's polluted by soot producers and suv drivers?


Yeah JB, what's the matter with you expecting to breathe.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You are letting your personal bias distract you from the point.
> I'll leave you to it......


Since you enjoy coming across like you know better and like to point out when you think ppl are wrong... Would like to point out that was about a week ago when you repeatedly spewed divisiveness along the lines of 'just a virus wash your hands and move along'. Turns out to not only be dead wrong, but harmful.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

OzarkFathom said:


> Waddayaknow.....
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-vaping-drugs/index.html
> 
> ...


Actually, the data are still very poor but smoking and underlying pulmonary disease do not appear to dramatically impact outcome with SARS-2. Diabetes and coronary heart disease are associated with increased mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(20)30566-3

These types of studies - even those in the Lancet - are biased and have issues but are suggestive.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> My personal bias that agrees that viruses don't discriminate? I guess you got me there.


No viruses do and do it well. Viruses like hepatitis B primarily cause disease in men but are almost asymptotic in women until menopause. That is done to ensure transmission from mother to child. This virus also influences gender in offspring - one of the main reasons why China has more men (not all infanticide).

Hepatitis C causes greater disease and was harder to treat with interferon in African Americans because they primarily contain a different form of the IL-28 gene.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Since you enjoy coming across like you know better and like to point out when you think ppl are wrong... Would like to point out that was about a week ago when you repeatedly spewed divisiveness along the lines of 'just a virus wash your hands and move along'. Turns out to not only be dead wrong, but harmful.


meat, everyone who spouted those words of 'comfort' not so long ago is changing tunes now. At least they are changing tho, at least most of them.

One of my fears is that after being cooped up for a little, many people will get frustrated because it is hard to share space with an unlikeable person. Even tho they may be alone. Then we could be seeing first small, then increasingly larger groups of people trying to congregate outside, bucking the system and spoiling any benefits gained by distancing. I hope I am wrong!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Since you enjoy coming across like you know better and like to point out when you think ppl are wrong... Would like to point out that was about a week ago when you repeatedly spewed divisiveness along the lines of 'just a virus wash your hands and move along'. Turns out to not only be dead wrong, but harmful.


Wrong again Meat.
This place has many posts as evidence against your posting here.
Wash your hands, keep calm, and move along is still the best advice.
When the subject of isolation from others came up I pointed out that I was already doing that.
Science.
Best Advice continues to be wash your hands.
Most here ridiculed me for that.
Made a joke of the Science.
Preoccupied with toilet paper, beer, face masks (with obvious exceptions for those who legitimately need them, and a bit of humor) and "surreptitious" outings.

Most clatter was emotional, bound to fear based political ranting name calling and death wishes to anything not anti "Orange Feckless Leader".

I suggested this was a learning experience and was told to leave the site.
There is plenty here to back it all up. A matter of record.

Contrary to your post, Meat, it is not harmful to keep calm, wash your hands, and move along.

Still the best advice, not as you suggest, "Divisive Spew"....


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Vespasianus said:


> No viruses do and do it well. Viruses like hepatitis B primarily cause disease in men but are almost asymptotic in women until menopause. That is done to ensure transmission from mother to child. This virus also influences gender in offspring - one of the main reasons why China has more men (not all infanticide).
> 
> Hepatitis C causes greater disease and was harder to treat with interferon in African Americans because they primarily contain a different form of the IL-28 gene.


Valid points, well put.
When I pointed out they (Viruses) do not discriminate, I thought context made it clear I was referring to social/political influences. Guess some missed that.


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Smokers put their hands to their mouths several hundred times more per day than non-smokers, so they likely are at greater risk for that reason too, in addition to their underlying health conditions that they may not even know about. Glad I quit 20 years ago, but I probably would have been dead before corona anyway if I hadn't.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey Oz. Let me know when you’re done with honing/changing your post, then I will reply


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)




----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

https://wheelingit.us/


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

UpTheAnte said:


>


The numbers coming out of Italy are sobering.
It will be a classic case study when all this passes.
Probably more to learn there than in China after all this is over.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong again Meat.
> This place has many posts as evidence against your posting here.
> Wash your hands, keep calm, and move along is still the best advice.
> When the subject of isolation from others came up I pointed out that I was already doing that.
> ...


OZ, you are as evasive as ever, and seemingly unwilling to look at truth. You have consistently put others down for suggesting self isolation and stronger measures in general, ever since your first post in the 'dreaded lurg' thread where you told VTS to "calm down" when he suggested he would be going into voluntary withdrawal, and was glad to not be living in a big city. I have certainly not imagined your continued disdain for people promoting these views since then, as I am sure others have not. Please do not claim with hindsight and skillful editing that your advice has been consistently correct and relevant. Your exhortation to wash hands and carry on is itself proof of this. Science has moved on from what you consider their view to be, but you seem to be stuck in your own personal echo chamber of denial.

Oh, and you should never capitalize "feckless", especially when referring to you know who...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> No, it's actually likely. Anything that one does to cause distress to the lungs is likely to raise one's risk factor. Plenty of doctors have been raising that concern.


True, but when I said "that's messed up" I was talking about certain people who seem concerned about how their tax dollars might be appropriated during these hard times and suggesting that perhaps aid should be omitted to people who might smoke a little weed. That's messed up.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> True, but when I said "that's messed up" I was talking about certain people who seem concerned about how their tax dollars might be appropriated during these hard times and suggesting that perhaps aid should be omitted to people who might smoke a little weed. That's messed up.


Wrong.
Patently false.
I pointed out two times that I am Libertarian on pot.
The state subsidy was a reference to the state profiting from the industry.
Never said anything about economic aid to individuals to get by the isolation period.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

OzarkFathom said:


> The numbers coming out of Italy are sobering.
> It will be a classic case study when all this passes.
> Probably more to learn there than in China after all this is over.


It will be but everyone knows that the Chinese numbers are what are reported time 10. There is a lot of useful information coming out of china. The fact that they do not have a treatment/vaccine is an important one.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Rocker.
You are being disingenuous here and you know it.
You posted a lengthy piece that suggested everyone needed masks.
Some of the info you posted was directly contradictory.
Others and myself took issue with that.
Many of your posts and others were Heavily Political.

From page 2 of your Luigi thread
#226

"Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
Agreed with caveats. Protecting the public should be pretty high on a first world nations government agenda.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
Sure.
Sanitation. Food supply. Water systems. Electrical grids. Healthy personal habits.
*
Promoting disinformation and panic runs on masks, hand sanitizer, bottled water, and toilet paper......... not so much.

The first line of protection as far as medical supply of service, medicines, and PPE should be left to the most vulnerable.

This latest virus outbreak didn't modify my current conservatively prepared lifestyle beyond a few simple behavior modifications in public.

If the government produced and made available a vaccine tomorrow there is a whole contingent in this country who would refuse to take it."
*



> Your exhortation to wash hands and carry on is itself proof of this. Science has moved on from what you consider their view to be, but you seem to be stuck in your own personal echo chamber of denial.


Science has NOT moved beyond hand washing still being the first line of defense.
You suggested "surreptitiously" getting out and around. Why surreptitiously?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Fred Smith was just on Face the Nation....
Not alarmist.

Fed Ex is still up and running full force.
Thank God for that.
And there was Corona in Fred’s office building.

China is coming back online.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Rocker.
> You are being disingenuous here and you know it.
> You posted a lengthy piece that suggested everyone needed masks.
> Some of the info you posted was directly contradictory.
> ...


Nah, I'd say Rocker got his assessment of you about right. Hey, I've been wondering. Is that avatar photo of yours of Marcus Aurelius or Mussolini? The image is kind of blurry, like the consistency of your agruments.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

M.A. of “Meditations” fame.
Where was I inconsistent?
Hand Washing?
Isolation?
Panic?
Politics?
Sneaking out?
Hold firm on not selling stock when it is down?
Being obnoxiously direct?
Where.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Rocker.
> You are being disingenuous here and you know it.
> You posted a lengthy piece that suggested everyone needed masks.
> Some of the info you posted was directly contradictory.
> ...


Nothing disingenuous about my post, and you should know that as a master of same! I am just pointing out what I think. The rest of what you have posted has little or nothing to do with what I was talking about. As usual you cherry-pick what you respond to, and try to dress up your responses with quotes and emphasis to divert.

As I said, since this thing first became a thing, you have treated others with disdain and sought to discredit their views if they did not align with your own, which have been questionable at best, even tho you now claim otherwise and do your best to show. We are not all as stupid you think we are OZ. It is Ok to change your mind.

As to going out surreptitiously, I have consistently promoted distancing as a primary tool to contain the virus. If we were all told to stay in our homes and not go out to exercise, I am afraid I would still do my best to go out and exercise while still being safe for myself and others. It that was to mean going out in stealth mode, so be it. If there was a valid reason for not going out even then, I would of course comply with that. I am a firm believer that outdoor exercise will go a long way to keeping us healthy and sane during this time, as long as it is done responsibly. Thankfully, the shelter in place states so far seem to agree.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> As to going out surreptitiously, I have consistently promoted distancing as a primary tool to contain the virus. If we were all told to stay in our homes and not go out to exercise, I am afraid I would still do my best to go out and exercise while still being safe for myself and others. It that was to mean going out in stealth mode, so be it. If there was a valid reason for not going out even then, I would of course comply with that. I am a firm believer that outdoor exercise will go a long way to keeping us healthy and sane during this time, as long as it is done responsibly. Thankfully, the shelter in place states so far seem to agree.


Agree.

As for the rest, I appreciate the admonishment.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

That is all I have to say on this subject OZ. You know my views, and I know yours.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Many just have no clue about the real world
the obey the orange fox combo
u know the super smart mantras
pro foetus
pro gunssss
the ones with 10,000+ IQ


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

... but it is interesting you are a MA fan. I dip into the Meditations too sometimes, but MA does have some issues. he needs to relax sometimes I think!

You can relax the stoicism a little now and then tho too 

"Failure to observe what is in the mind of another has seldom made a man unhappy; but those who do not observe the movements of their own minds must of necessity be unhappy."


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> Many just have no clue about the real world
> the obey the orange fox combo
> u know the super smart mantras
> pro foetus
> ...


Are you French?


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm not advocating a position on this....

But it's an interesting idea. On this board, we know that almost all of us, if we live long enough, will die WITH prostate cancer. Not that many will die OF prostate cancer.

The data on the number of Italian patients dying OF COVID-19 seems as though it would be a straight forward set of data, but it MIGHT be more complicated than that:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...se/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/

I expect this is the reason:
""The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46," Prof Ricciardi says. "So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality."

But, this could be skewing the data some. To what extent would be good to know once this passes.

""The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus."

"On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.

On first glance, I'd say that an 80 year old smoker who died of a heart attack while suffering from a severe case of COVID-19 would fall into the "Died of COVID-19 category". If he had a heart attack when he was told he had COVID-19....well, maybe not.

This is a data set that could end up more subjective than I'd have thought.

On a more important note:
https://howmuchtoiletpaper.com/


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

This point was hit upon a bit in the Cuomo piece.
I still expect the actual hard data reflection will indicate a huge contact/infection rate in the US based/centered upon air travel and then subsequent movement in high density populations.

That death rate in Italy stands out.
Almost Shockingly High.
Not sure what the ultimate look back will reveal after the real data comes out.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> True, but when I said "that's messed up" I was talking about certain people who seem concerned about how their tax dollars might be appropriated during these hard times and suggesting that perhaps aid should be omitted to people who might smoke a little weed. That's messed up.


Not what he said at all. Not even close.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

33red said:


> Many just have no clue about the real world
> the obey the orange fox combo
> u know the super smart mantras
> pro foetus
> ...


Oh sheesh! You ain't doing anyone any favors with some of your posts 33, least of all yourself.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Are you French?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

joshtee said:


> Not what he said at all. Not even close.


Absolutely, I'm sure nothing was further from his mind. Apologies.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I want credit for embracing Cuomo, Dammitt!






As I'm watching this he is doing more to spell out things than anyone I've seen....Hitting every point so far.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockerc said:


> ... but it is interesting you are a MA fan. I dip into the Meditations too sometimes, but MA does have some issues. he needs to relax sometimes I think!
> 
> You can relax the stoicism a little now and then tho too
> 
> "Failure to observe what is in the mind of another has seldom made a man unhappy; but those who do not observe the movements of their own minds must of necessity be unhappy."


You found me out.
Now you know why I stick around.....


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong again Meat.
> Wash your hands, keep calm, and move along is still the best advice.


And what did/do you mean by "and move along"? This phrase usually means it's no big deal to concern yourself with, keep on doing what you were doing before you came across this. It's often followed by "nothing to see here" emphasizing it's not worth your time to be concerned with this matter.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I guess a lot of people are out of the loop since they don't live in CO, but a *huge* amount of cannabis is now consumed without smoking. Edibles, tinctures, etc. 

I'd be curious to know if eating cannabis makes one susceptible to coronavirus, or anything else. 

Is seems obvious that smoking/vaping anything long term is going to tear up someone's lungs. I wonder what percentage of serious coronavirus cases in people under age 50 are smokers/vapers of anything, tobacco, pot, whatever.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

chazpat said:


> And what did/do you mean by "and move along"? This phrase usually means it's no big deal to concern yourself with, keep on doing what you were doing before you came across this. It's often followed by "nothing to see here" emphasizing it's not worth your time to be concerned with this matter.


Look, I understand how these perceptions are not the other guy's fault.
I am blunt to a fault. As a matter of life habit, and on reflection as a matter of prompting thoughtful reply.

To your specific point, "and move along".
There is a reason I did not add "nothing to see here".
I would not go that far. "Move along" refers, from my point of view, to the urging to maintain as much a normal non panic routine as possible. A simple point really in reaction to the nearly 100 posts preceding my first post in the Lurgi thread. In the subsequent Coronavirus thread, the opening line of "we are all screwed" was way over the top and the many following raw uninformed panic riddled posts warranted a pretty blunt reply directly pointing out the simple basic best advice. All of this is also a reflection of the changing circumstances mostly in New York. That is why I started posting the Cuomo vids.

It's pretty obvious that on a micro scale people are dealing with different circumstances. Ginning up runs on toilet paper, gasoline, selling stock, skipping work where risk is managed and low are not helpful. Low density will have different issues than high density, and there are even indications that variations in climate across the country indicate different behavior. 
Fed Ex is running as hard as possible in Memphis, adapting as needed. That is a good example of how to proceed, from my perspective, providing vital logistics in a critical time of need. Many of my coworkers are working overtime to meet critical needs at Hospitals, Fed Ex and other places under ever changing protocols. No Panic. Lots of work under difficult conditions.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> I guess a lot of people are out of the loop since they don't live in CO, but a *huge* amount of cannabis is now consumed without smoking. Edibles, tinctures, etc.
> 
> I'd be curious to know if eating cannabis makes one susceptible to coronavirus, or anything else.
> 
> Is seems obvious that smoking/vaping anything long term is going to tear up someone's lungs. I wonder what percentage of serious coronavirus cases in people under age 50 are smokers/vapers of anything, tobacco, pot, whatever.


A perfectly thoughtful and reasonable post.
Thanks.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> ... the opening line of "we are all screwed" was way over the top and the many following raw uninformed panic riddled posts warranted a pretty blunt reply directly pointing out the simple basic best advice.


Really? Millions out of work with on eta of returning, Dow down 10,000 points in a just a few weeks, more businesses shutting down every day... I'd say honkinunit was a lot more on point than you are.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> I'd say honkinunit was a lot more on point than you are.


Fine by me.
We probably have different views on what we consider a good screwin' ......
Some take the short view, some the long.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong.
> Patently false.
> I pointed out two times .


You thinking I'm wrong just lets a person know they are right. As an example the two things you said about this topic that stick out are
-wash your hands and move along
-and boasting about the market gains for one day.
You clearly are led by emotions, not reason, and clearly a follower who never had a worthy original thought. At least you haven't shared one with us yet


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

themeat said:


> you thinking i'm wrong just lets a person know they are right. As an example the two things you said about this topic that stick out are
> -wash your hands and move along
> -and boasting about the market gains for one day.
> You clearly are led by emotions, not reason, and clearly a follower who never had a worthy original thought. At least you haven't shared one with us yet


O.
I c.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Fine by me.
> We probably have different views on what we consider a good screwin' ......
> Some take the short view, some the long.


That's nice, see you in hell.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's nice, see you in hell.


Gee, you really think so?
Would you recognize me?


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I've just reported to the mods for a clean up. Y'all can carry on until then, hopefully you can get it all out. Don't forget to wipe really good!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Gotta keep your sense of humor....
No worries on this end either way.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc said:


> meat, everyone who spouted those words of 'comfort' not so long ago is changing tunes now. At least they are changing tho, at least most of them.
> 
> One of my fears is that after being cooped up for a little, many people will get frustrated because it is hard to share space with an unlikeable person. Even tho they may be alone. Then we could be seeing first small, then increasingly larger groups of people trying to congregate outside, bucking the system and spoiling any benefits gained by distancing. I hope I am wrong!


An emergency doc friend just today shared that same concern. To me that helps flatten the curve. It's hitting home round here. Know a 60 something yo father who's not looking promising, and a 29 yo otherwise healthy female who is just looking better but it got scary. Both are still intubated. 
What scares me is another event like storm of whatever on top of, or covid 19 coming back after herd immunity thins, or comes back as covid 20. Not to mention the financial, lifestyle and infrastructure resets going on before our eyes


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Gotta keep your sense of humor....
> No worries on this end either way.


Yes
The ole "humor ploy'
Guess that's better than I'm running to mommy and telling on you


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

https://www.coronavirus.gov/


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah bro that’s what a leader looks like. Thankfully he’s smart enough to know not to lash out at him.
Did you here him say ‘oh, that’s too bad about Romney’ today


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Your needle is stuck in the groove.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)




----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

On the subject of Italy and Cruise Ship infections, from a Nobel Chemist studying the pandemic....

Levitt acknowledges that his figures are messy, and that the official case counts in many areas are too low because testing is spotty. But even with incomplete data, "a consistent decline means there's some factor at work that is not just noise in the numbers," he said.

*The trajectory of deaths backs up his findings, he said. So do data from outbreaks in confined environments, such as the one on the Diamond Princess cruise ship. Out of 3,711 people on board, 712 were infected and eight died. In his view, this unintended experiment in coronavirus spread will help researchers estimate the number of fatalities that would occur in a fully infected population.*

Levitt said the social-distancing mandates are critical - particularly the ban on large gatherings - because the virus is so new that the population has no immunity to it and a vaccine is still many months away. "This is not the time to go out drinking with your buddies."

*Getting vaccinated against the flu is important because a coronavirus outbreak that strikes in the middle of a flu epidemic is much more likely to overwhelm hospitals and increases the odds that the coronavirus goes undetected. This was probably a factor in Italy, a country with a strong anti-vaccine movement, he said.
*
But he also blames the media for causing *unnecessary panic* by focusing on the relentless increase in the cumulative number of cases and spotlighting celebrities who contract the virus. By contrast, the flu has sickened 36 million Americans since September and killed an estimated 22,000, according to the CDC, but those deaths are largely unreported.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-nobel-laureate-predicts-quicker-210318391.html


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hackneyed


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

This is what karma looks like:

https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ul-threatens-block-emergency-bill/4961989002/

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen-rand-paul-tests-positive-for-coronavirus

I wanted to include the FauxNews link, because I wanted to point something out. At least 95% of stories on foxnews.com have a comments section, and if you have never read them, spare yourself unless you want to be hit over the head with the hammer of realization that there are a *lot* of really stupid people out there.

But no comments allowed on stories about Rand Paul and coronanvirus? I guess even the FauxNews editors couldn't stand to see that shitshow of ignorance.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> This is what karma looks like:
> 
> https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ul-threatens-block-emergency-bill/4961989002/
> 
> ...


Let us assume your Karma assessment is absolutely spot on correct.
What can we infer from democrat senators blocking the relief bill?

Coronavirus Live Updates: As State Pleas Mount, Trump Outlines Some Federal Action; Senate Democrats Block Stimulus PackageWill they test positive for taking the same position as Rand Paul?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hackneyed I tell ya!


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Harvey Weinstein tests positive. Could this be true


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> This is what karma looks like:
> 
> https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ul-threatens-block-emergency-bill/4961989002/
> 
> ...


QFT....it is brutal to see that whole demographic given a soap box...

and this is on a completely different, and probably not real popular spin on this whole thing, but I have been wondering if the whole "Shutdown" reaction is something that might have been needed...like a wake up call about how we all really live, consume, relate, interact, care for, and appreciate what we have in our First World existence.

The economical, societal, and civil climate that will come of this will be different for a while, and I am wondering if this is something that the powers greater than us do to smack us in the face a bit about our true place on the planet.

Maybe I am just crazy from being cooped up in the house, but I think every once in a while we need a big equalizer like this to reset the order of things...to remind us that we are not the most powerful being on the planet


----------



## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

33red said:


> Many just have no clue about the real world
> the obey the orange fox combo
> u know the super smart mantras
> pro foetus
> ...


I'm a pro gunner. Problem?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> QFT....it is brutal to see that whole demographic given a soap box...
> 
> and this is on a completely different, and probably not real popular spin on this whole thing, but I have been wondering if the whole "Shutdown" reaction is something that might have been needed...like a wake up call about how we all really live, consume, relate, interact, care for, and appreciate what we have in our First World existence.
> 
> ...


Yup


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

An evolutionary stepping stone/tool to weed the garden, so to speak.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

UpTheAnte said:


> An evolutionary stepping stone/tool to weed the garden, so to speak.


I have always believed that nature does things to "balance" out the populations on the planet...natural disasters, climate change, pandemics...even wars, I think, are part of a larger scale plan that none of us have control over, and that has always been happening.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

2old said:


> I'm a pro gunner. Problem?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I do not have a problem, you do.
Look at facts around the world..
more guns/arms = more kids die
to buy a gun/arm it should cost you a kidney
to buy a bullet should cost you a lung
just to help the injured
to buy an extra bullet 
should cost you your heart
and saying you are pro life should cosy your your brain
anyways you are not using it


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Tend your own house.
Your perpetual morbid ranting is nonsense.
Americans will determine their destiny without your meddling.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> Tend your own house.
> Your perpetual morbid ranting is nonsense.
> Americans will determine their destiny without your meddling.


I do not know what you read but many say russians do.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> QFT....it is brutal to see that whole demographic given a soap box...
> 
> and this is on a completely different, and probably not real popular spin on this whole thing, but I have been wondering if the whole "Shutdown" reaction is something that might have been needed...like a wake up call about how we all really live, consume, relate, interact, care for, and appreciate what we have in our First World existence.
> 
> ...


I've been spending some of my time preparing my vegetable garden beds. I already have sugarsnap peas a few inches high. I keep thinking I'd feel better about all this if I had food available in my front yard and that made me think about how it was a few generations ago, when our forefathers (and foremothers) were prepared and more self sufficient, having canned and stored part of the harvest so that they'd have food over the winter months.

I wonder if I could convert my crawlspace into a root cellar. Need to plan on a winter garden as well, something I was already planning on.


----------



## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Tend your own house.
> Your perpetual morbid ranting is nonsense.
> Americans will determine their destiny without your meddling.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OzarkFathom again.

I've read a lot of 33Red's political fascism and have added him to my ignore list. I don't have time for people criticizing my country when they have issues in their own.


----------



## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

metalskool said:


> I've read a lot of 33Red's political fascism and have added him to my ignore list.


Me too, after one post.


----------



## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

33red said:


> I do not have a problem, you do.
> Look at facts around the world..
> more guns/arms = more kids die
> to buy a gun/arm it should cost you a kidney
> ...


I know this comment I'm about to make will get deleted but I have to say it anyway, you are the stupidest individual to ever post on mtbr.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

How to protect your ego and sensitivities


----------



## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

metalskool said:


> I've read a lot of 33Red's political fascism and have added him to my ignore list. I don't have time for people criticizing my country when they have issues in their own.





rkwfxd said:


> Me too, after one post.


Same here. I've been around this site for a while and have always enjoyed the fact that it *was *one of the very few sites where I never felt the need to use the ignore filter so we could stick to the topic of the site without regard for views outside of riding in this case. 33red, honkinunit and a couple others have caused me to finally activate the filter here. I had hoped the mods were serious when they stated "zero tolerance" for political content and personal attacks. Oh well, no site is perfect and that's why we have ignore filters.


----------



## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

TheBaldBlur said:


> Same here. I've been around this site for a while and have always enjoyed the fact that it *was *one of the very few sites where I never felt the need to use the ignore filter so we could stick to the topic of the site without regard for views outside of riding in this case. 33red, honkinunit and a couple others have caused me to finally activate the filter here. I had hoped the mods were serious when they stated "zero tolerance" for political content and personal attacks. Oh well, no site is perfect and that's why we have ignore filters.


I couldn't agree more. I come here to discuss bikes and bike related topics- not politics. I can go to FaceBook for that BS.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

metalskool said:


> I couldn't agree more. I come here to discuss bikes and bike related topics-


Then why click on this thread?


----------



## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Then why click on this thread?


Edited due to "car crash rubbernecking syndrome"
smfh


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

metalskool said:


> I guess because this is a BIKING forum I had a glimmer of hope that this thread might relate to biking. But I digress, and will not fall into any further bait-trolling.


Just saying that the title of the thread indicates fairly clearly that it's not bike related and the first post confirms that. Seem pretty easy to avoid content that bothers you but I guess the car crash rubbernecking syndrome is for real.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm getting better at using my brain to filter out input.....and output!
I'm not at 100%, more like 90%, but I used to be closer to 50% so that's a big improvement for me.

Sort of like achieving good modulation on XT brakes.


----------



## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

MSU Alum said:


> Sort of like achieving good modulation on XT brakes.


Oh hell you have started it NOW!!

...nicely done, BTW...

:thumbsup:


----------



## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

rkwfxd said:


> Me too, after one post.


This is the first time I have used the ignore feature but he deserves it. Don't get people like that, glad I don't know him...


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

He holds strong views, and that is his prerogative. He just does not know how, where, when, and in what manner to best air them.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

rockerc said:


> He holds strong views, and that is his prerogative. He just does not know how, where, when, and in what manner to best air them.


Is this user also not from the country he spends a lot of time maligning?

Seems like a lot of effort to complain about something you can't do anything about. My Mom is an American Citizen living in Canada and used to complain about local politics all the time. I told her to get her citizenship or just stop complaining about. With civic input in the results then you can't really complain about how it is run. It is like me complaining about the diet for school kids in the UK. I don't live there, have no ability to impact the process, so I should just STFU about things I cannot control.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I don’t mind people from other countries expressing criticism of America.
But when they challenge my personal Liberty under our Law in such morbid terms I expect to confront them about it. Not a fan of banning anyone. 
Make a case and be prepared to defend it or reconsider.
That can be done in a pressing and sharp tone without expressing a desire of death and personal harm to others.
I expect in this particular case there is a bit of a language/culture barrier as well.

God help us if we come to the point of silencing rather than countering with critical thought, those we disagree with for the sake of mindless groupthink.
Ignoring people isn’t a substitute for a little reflection now and then.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I don't mind people from other countries expressing criticism of America.
> But when they challenge my personal Liberty under our Law in such morbid terms I expect to confront them about it. Not a fan of banning anyone.
> Make a case and be prepared to defend it or reconsider.
> That can be done in a pressing and sharp tone without expressing a desire of death and personal harm to others.
> ...


Well said. Think that might be borderline 'original thought'. Will pos rep you when I can


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The recent Cuomo video press conferences come to mind.
After watching his full hour yesterday, I forwarded links to my Dad.
We discussed that at length and not being fans of his politics in the past, were immensely impressed by the character and good judgement he displayed. Dad forwarded the links to my Uncle and they discussed it as well. A side we have never seen before beyond the rhetoric. 
The Learning continues.

The relationship between Adams and Jefferson comes to mind.
A bit of revisiting the details of that from time to time is useful in times like these. It is at the Heart of the successes we have had as a Nation.


----------



## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

I’ve been impressed so far with Cuomo’s handling of the current crisis in his state. I can’t imagine the stress load he and other leaders are under right now. We will learn a lot from NY in the coming days.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Sir kayakalot said:


> I've been impressed so far with Cuomo's handling of the current crisis in his state. I can't imagine the stress load he and other leaders are under right now. We will learn a lot from NY in the coming days.


that's something anyone with political aspirations needs to understand and be prepared for: if elected, you may well be the one who has to deal with the Apocalypse...


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The majority of humans know Trump is a criminal calling him a political subject has no base. He said he would never settle for his so called university that was a scam well it cost him millions to stay out of jail.
In most country that is criminal, not political.
Name me 5 politicians who hate so many people,
just kick him out he is creating records deficits.
He said Obama was terrible for playing golf well he is worst.
The only 2 things he has lots of are excuses, and blames for others.
Write to your senators and governors that is more powerfull than about me.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You have marginalized yourself into white noise......


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

I have found the "ignore" function to be useful.

What do they say: "Never argue with an idiot as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Some things are not worth my time.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> Is this user also not from the country he spends a lot of time maligning?
> 
> Seems like a lot of effort to complain about something you can't do anything about. My Mom is an American Citizen living in Canada and used to complain about local politics all the time. I told her to get her citizenship or just stop complaining about. With civic input in the results then you can't really complain about how it is run. It is like me complaining about the diet for school kids in the UK. I don't live there, have no ability to impact the process, so I should just STFU about things I cannot control.


As you may or may not know, I am a Brit living in the US. I pay a lot of money in taxes here, and have done since I started to work here many years ago. I have a Green Card which allows me to work and also to vote in some minor local elections, but not at any kind of meaningful level. 
I do happen to feel I have a right to speak my mind about what I see in my adopted country, citizen or not. Especially when my tax dollars are spent on all kinds of things I may or may not agree with. "No taxation without representation" seems to be somewhat more loosely interpreted these days! Kind of ironic since this was a slogan used as a grievance against the British all those years ago 
I'll let that one go tho, as long as you let me voice my opinion here 

As for our friend 33red, I have no idea of his situation, but I am pretty sure he ain't a Brit. French Canadian I would say.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

BRITS OUT!



Couldn’t resist.

He, 33, seems to have a French “accent” to me....
That’s why I asked the question earlier.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> "No taxation without representation" seems to be somewhat more loosely interpreted these days! Kind of ironic since this was a slogan used as a grievance against the British all those years ago


As an interesting point of U.S. history, the slogan was also used by the members of the "Whiskey Rebellion" way out west in Pennsylvania.

From wiki:
The Whiskey Rebellion (also known as the Whiskey Insurrection) was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791 and ending in 1794 during the presidency of George Washington, ultimately under the command of American Revolutionary war veteran Major James McFarlane.
Date: 1791-1794
Result: Government victory: Armed resistance ...
Location: primarily Western Pennsylvania

Even in a true democracy - where 2 wolves and a sheep vote on what's for dinner - what citizens have to give up isn't perfectly equitable!

Especially if you're the sheep!

Anyway, the citizens out "west" were worried that, being a small region and "far" from Washington, they would not have equitable representation based solely on population density.

It was only about 10 years later that the Electoral College came into existence. I've wondered - but been much too lazy to research it - to what extent these folks, with that experience so fresh in their minds, decided they needed to create the EC to protect that perspective of rights?

Oh, and welcome to the colonies!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Florida recovery case indicates promise for chloroquine.....
Pretty dramatic recovery apparently.
Expedited voluntary clinical trials in NY and Italy seem appropriate.
Drug interaction screening would be imperative.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

MSU Alum said:


> Anyway, the citizens out "west" were worried that, being a small region and "far" from Washington, they would not have equitable representation based solely on population density.


see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_state)

In October 1941, the Mayor of Port Orford, Oregon, Gilbert Gable, said that the Oregon counties of Curry, Josephine, Jackson, and Klamath should join with the California counties of Del Norte, Siskiyou, and Modoc to form a new state, later named Jefferson.[6]

*He was motivated by the belief that these heavily rural areas were underrepresented in state government, which tended to cater to more populous areas.*[7]

On November 27, 1941, a group of young men gained national media attention when brandishing hunting rifles for dramatic effect, they stopped traffic on U.S. Route 99 south of Yreka, the county seat of Siskiyou County, and handed out copies of a Proclamation of Independence, stating that the State of Jefferson was in "patriotic rebellion against the States of California and Oregon" and would continue to "secede every Thursday until further notice."[8]


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

shekky said:


> see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_state)
> 
> In October 1941, the Mayor of Port Orford, Oregon, Gilbert Gable, said that the Oregon counties of Curry, Josephine, Jackson, and Klamath should join with the California counties of Del Norte, Siskiyou, and Modoc to form a new state, later named Jefferson.[6]
> 
> ...


Sometimes the tree of liberty gets refreshed with booze.
We tend to be a rowdy bunch, that's for sure.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> BRITS OUT!
> 
> 
> Couldn't resist.
> ...


Most likely a Newfie.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Coronavirus tracker. It is somewhat useful as it breaks down localities to some extent.

https://www.healthlynked.com/corona-virus-tracker/

Update 42. Immunity






....a description on how reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction tests work and why rtPCR may not be a definitive test for negativity! 
Basically, it depends on the viral load.

They address current research on the possibility of reinfection.

Also, you can test for antibodies, but it could take 5-7 days for the body to produce enough of an antibody (IgM, IgG) load to produce a positive. THAT limits test usefulness for early detection, to an extent.

Testing for antigens is done with HIV and is very accurate, but again, you have to wait a finite period for the viral load to be big enough to exceed a testable threshold.

Anyway, they talk about testing modes and there are COVID-19 antibody tests currently awaiting FDA approval.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

From the NV Board State Board of Pharmacy:

"In the effort to prevent the stockpiling of these medications, the Nevada State Board of Pharmacy
is restricting the dispensing of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine.
Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine Restrictionsiii
Prescriptions for chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine related to COVID-19 may ONLY be
dispensed for the treatment of, NOT for the prevention of the disease and must comply with the
following:
a) The patient has a diagnosis of COVID-19 and the diagnosis is indicated on the
prescription;
b) The prescription is limited to no more than a fourteen (14) day supply;
c) No refills may be permitted unless a new prescription is furnished; and
d) The pharmacist confirms that the prescribing practitioner submitted an individual
"compassionate use" or expanded access request with the Food and Drug Administration
(FDA Form 3926). "

Currently, there is not enough medication for people to take for chronic health conditions due to a significant increase in the prescribing of these medications.

Please don't ask your medical provider to prescribe these medications, they will not be able to get them, they will also not be able to justify this off label use.

There needs to be more research.



OzarkFathom said:


> Florida recovery case indicates promise for chloroquine.....
> Pretty dramatic recovery apparently.
> Expedited voluntary clinical trials in NY and Italy seem appropriate.
> Drug interaction screening would be imperative.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> From the NV Board State Board of Pharmacy:
> 
> "In the effort to prevent the stockpiling of these medications, the Nevada State Board of Pharmacy
> is restricting the dispensing of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine.
> ...


Currently, both nationally and in West Virginia, some prescribers have begun writing prescriptions for these drugs for family, friends, and coworkers in anticipation of Covid-19 related illness.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/states-drug-stockpile-coronavirus/index.html

My daughter is an OR charge nurse and was having to hide PPE from doctors in February!

Bayer AG said on Thursday it has donated 3 million tablets of the malaria drug Resochin to the U.S. government for potential use to treat COVID-19.
Teva is sending 6 million tablets.

People in the U.S. with COVID-19 who are critical asking for this treatment are NOT the problem.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> Coronavirus tracker. It is somewhat useful as it breaks down localities to some extent.
> 
> https://www.healthlynked.com/corona-virus-tracker/
> 
> ...


PCR test can get down to single copy levels. It all depends on the test. The PCR reaction is not the limiting factor but the methods used to collect the sample and purify the viral nucleic acid from the swab. That can range from good to piss poor.

For this test, the limit of detection is ~1-3 copies but dependent upon a good swab (which can be visually observed). PCR is childs play and this test is not complicated at all. It can be done in any lab.

But you are 100% right, a negative test should not be used to diagnose anybody.

Antibody test can work but if you are looking at IgG - it either indicates a chronic viral infection or a resolved infection. IgM test to identify early patients are on the way as are test that will determine if patients have the proper immune response to clear the virus.


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Sir kayakalot said:


> I know this comment I'm about to make will get deleted but I have to say it anyway, you are the stupidest individual to ever post on mtbr.


Yup

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> PCR test can get down to single copy levels. It all depends on the test. The PCR reaction is not the limiting factor but the methods used to collect the sample and purify the viral nucleic acid from the swab. That can range from good to piss poor.
> 
> For this test, the limit of detection is ~1-3 copies but dependent upon a good swab (which can be visually observed). PCR is childs play and this test is not complicated at all. It can be done in any lab.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I just had this conversation with my son (Masters, Medical Physics Duke - lots of medical folks in my family). He works for a Biotech designing and producing PCR tests and their tests are >95% accurate, but with a bunch of caveats. I'm also thinking that the 60-70% must be an across the board result including samples below LOD from a clinical setting.

I was going to write to the doctor and ask him what the specific statistical studies were.

I seem to recall IgG looks like the starship Enterprise....or was it IgM? 
Not that I was a stoner in biochem!


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Just saying that the title of the thread indicates fairly clearly that it's not bike related and the first post confirms that. Seem pretty easy to avoid content that bothers you but I guess the car crash rubbernecking syndrome is for real.


It's not like we were looking in the eBike area for a jab. It's a topic that effects us all. Why are you here

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

rockerc said:


> As you may or may not know, I am a Brit living in the US. I pay a lot of money in taxes here, and have done since I started to work here many years ago. I have a Green Card which allows me to work and also to vote in some minor local elections, but not at any kind of meaningful level.
> I do happen to feel I have a right to speak my mind about what I see in my adopted country, citizen or not. Especially when my tax dollars are spent on all kinds of things I may or may not agree with. "No taxation without representation" seems to be somewhat more loosely interpreted these days! Kind of ironic since this was a slogan used as a grievance against the British all those years ago
> I'll let that one go tho, as long as you let me voice my opinion here
> 
> As for our friend 33red, I have no idea of his situation, but I am pretty sure he ain't a Brit. French Canadian I would say.


Well put. French Canadian.....that explains lots

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah, I just had this conversation with my son (Masters, Medical Physics Duke - lots of medical folks in my family). He works for a Biotech designing and producing PCR tests and their tests are >95% accurate, but with a bunch of caveats. I'm also thinking that the 60-70% must be an across the board result including samples below LOD from a clinical setting.
> 
> I was going to write to the doctor and ask him what the specific statistical studies were.
> 
> ...


Too funny. IgG is classically shaped like a Y - but I could see it looking like the starship Enterprise - especially with some help! 

IgM looks like a snowflake.

Most PCR test are very good and when looking at blood can detect 1 particle without much issue. I have developed PCR test in the past when hospitals were still doing that and watched on the sideline when companies switched from classical microbiology to PCR test. There is a company in NJ that diagnosis 99% of the yeast infections in the USA (by PCR) and makes a killing doing it.

The limit of detection and specificity for the SARS2 test are in the protocol. I will look for it.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I have always believed that nature does things to "balance" out the populations on the planet...natural disasters, climate change, pandemics...even wars, I think, are part of a larger scale plan that none of us have control over, and that has always been happening.


So there is a reason the virus started in China?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

2old said:


> It's not like we were looking in the eBike area for a jab. It's a topic that effects us all. Why are you here


Same reason the rest of us are I suppose, just killing time.

Not understanding the reference to the ebike forum though.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> M.A. of "Meditations" fame.
> Where was I inconsistent?
> Hand Washing?
> Isolation?
> ...


Yes, I am familiar with Marcus Aurelius.

You are frequently obnoxious and self-righteous. Though more recently, measured and thoughtful, which I appreciate. Hence my reference to your inconsistency. Remember this post of yours, #4, from the now-closed Coronavirus thread:

"Utter B.S.
I just washed my hands and will be back to work next week.
You stay home and cower in the corner with your internet connection and your little timer.
Stop tying up the emergency room over flu symptoms.
We'll see if you have the balls to come back in a month.
I've been on my Bike 4 of the last 5 days and never felt better.
Life is good and getting better every day."

Not that you were entirely wrong. But neither was honkinunit. Alarmist maybe, but not far off the mark on some points. Your comment was dismissive in the extreme of what two weeks later has turned into a genuine healthcare and economic crisis. You'll probably argue that your position has "evolved" (along with the Prez and Fox, perhaps?) Interesting to watch both attempt to rewrite history in recent days, though Trump appears to be on the verge of devolving back to his instinctive priorities.

Almost reluctant to dredge this up. I like the new you.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

matt4x4 said:


> So there is a reason the virus started in China?


Some guy licked a fish or something wasn't it?
/Kidding

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Too funny. IgG is classically shaped like a Y - but I could see it looking like the starship Enterprise - especially with some help!
> 
> IgM looks like a snowflake.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was trying to describe the video I referenced, to my son and he wasn't able to comment because there were no references he could look at.
To clarify, he is only peripherally involved on the PCR development end. I think most of what he does is influenza, Rhino and Corona (the various viruses, he doesn't care for the beer!) modeling, but he does a lot of work with the CDC.

The post was partly an opportunity for a proud dad to brag!

Mostly, he kicks my a$$ mountain biking.


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*The Collapse of Complex Societies...Tainter*



str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I have always believed that nature does things to "balance" out the populations on the planet...natural disasters, climate change, pandemics...even wars, I think, are part of a larger scale plan that none of us have control over, and that has always been happening.[/QUOTE
> 
> tainter.pdf


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)




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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

PARENTS - teach your kids about this virus. it's not "just the flu".

Kids aren't getting the message about social distancing. Kids are indestructible in their minds ya know. They don't seem to care/realize they can get it and spread it.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

be1 said:


> PARENTS - teach your kids about this virus. it's not "just the flu".
> 
> Kids aren't getting the message about social distancing. Kids are indestructible in their minds ya know. They don't seem to care/realize they can get it and spread it.


I had to crack down on my wife and son about this. She was taking him to visit with his friends last week.

We are now under mandatory stay at home orders here which should help my position.

I have a letter from my company that we're considered critical infrastructure and so I'm thinking I could get some trails all to myself. Except that I can't seem to shake this damn flu bug.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

chazpat said:


> I've been spending some of my time preparing my vegetable garden beds. I already have sugarsnap peas a few inches high. I keep thinking I'd feel better about all this if I had food available in my front yard and that made me think about how it was a few generations ago, when our forefathers (and foremothers) were prepared and more self sufficient, having canned and stored part of the harvest so that they'd have food over the winter months.
> 
> I wonder if I could convert my crawlspace into a root cellar. Need to plan on a winter garden as well, something I was already planning on.


I feel the same way...one side of me hopes that the other end of this is an America with some refined concepts of how to use resources, and how to respect each others time, efforts, space etc...a "non-apocalyptic" non-overreactive, non-sensationalized outcome

The other side of me feels like i should prepare for dealing with the 1% taking all that they can and running, leaving the rest of us in Great Depression-like situations. I don't want to become a "prepper" because I think those types also fall prey to sensationalism, and not rational thought, but I also don't want to be caught blindsided

the sad thing is that I don't have enough faith in the general American population to embrace the tenets of the first mindset above. I fear that once the bans are all lifted people are going to "surge through the doors" Black Friday style and run over each other in search of the typical lifestyle they were used to

at least I will be on a trail in the woods somewhere when that happens


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Curveball said:


> I had to crack down on my wife and son about this. She was taking him to visit with his friends last week.
> 
> We are now under mandatory stay at home orders here which should help my position.
> 
> I have a letter from my company that we're considered critical infrastructure and so I'm thinking I could get some trails all to myself. Except that I can't seem to shake this damn flu bug.


We have been doing Zoom playdates with our kids and their friends. We set them up in a room with a laptop or cellphone and then set up a zoom meeting with their friends. The girls had a stuffie playdate and the boys had a boy talk about minecraft and Magic the Gathering, etc. It worked well, got the sense of seclusion resolved some.

They were amped up after and really had a good time. Thankfully we have a handful of laptops to use and reasonable bandwidth here. Our neighbors have kids similar ages and we have to continuously tell our kids to stay apart, as they have been up until yesterday, when our stay at home requirement became mandatory, at a karate day care thing, with kids from all over north Seattle. It is a virus factory even when there isn't a pandemic, much less when Seattlites need somewhere to send their kids during a pandemic between playdates at each others houses and the park.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> the sad thing is that I don't have enough faith in the general American population to embrace the tenets of the first mindset above. I fear that once the bans are all lifted people are going to "surge through the doors" Black Friday style and run over each other in search of the typical lifestyle they were used to


Human Nature is a continuum of oscillations.
A fairly reliable waveform.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

rockcrusher said:


> We have been doing Zoom playdates with our kids and their friends. We set them up in a room with a laptop or cellphone and then set up a zoom meeting with their friends. The girls had a stuffie playdate and the boys had a boy talk about minecraft and Magic the Gathering, etc. It worked well, got the sense of seclusion resolved some.
> 
> They were amped up after and really had a good time. Thankfully we have a handful of laptops to use and reasonable bandwidth here. Our neighbors have kids similar ages and we have to continuously tell our kids to stay apart, as they have been up until yesterday, when our stay at home requirement became mandatory, at a karate day care thing, with kids from all over north Seattle. It is a virus factory even when there isn't a pandemic, much less when Seattlites need somewhere to send their kids during a pandemic between playdates at each others houses and the park.


My son is a teenager and has been playing on-line video games with his friends. He's very disappointed that baseball is canceled. I suppose that he probably could go out for a ride with his friends as long as they maintain distance. We live close to St. Eds and he could ride there.


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

Curveball said:


> I had to crack down on my wife and son about this. She was taking him to visit with his friends last week.
> 
> We are now under mandatory stay at home orders here which should help my position.
> 
> I have a letter from my company that we're considered critical infrastructure and so I'm thinking I could get some trails all to myself. Except that I can't seem to shake this damn flu bug.


my coworker had a conversation about going on spring break:
son: i want to go on spring break.
mom: can you put it off for a couple of months?
son: it's just not convenient for us (college) seniors. (gotta party while you can!)
mom: death, ICU and ventilators aren't convenient either.

i don't think it sunk in and she thinks it's because of bad parenting. she's still fighting that battle...


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I feel the same way...one side of me hopes that the other end of this is an America with some refined concepts of how to use resources, and how to respect each others time, efforts, space etc...a "non-apocalyptic" non-overreactive, non-sensationalized outcome


that's an awesome wish. i wish that too. i just don't think the young ones are getting the message.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

rockcrusher said:


> We have been doing Zoom playdates with our kids and their friends. We set them up in a room with a laptop or cellphone and then set up a zoom meeting with their friends. The girls had a stuffie playdate and the boys had a boy talk about minecraft and *Magic the Gathering, *etc. It worked well, got the sense of seclusion resolved some.


my nerdy (and fiercely proud of it!!) adult friends and I have been plyaing Magic:TG via Zoom or Google Meets...as well as D&D...sometimes you never grow up!! And that is a good thing....


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

be1 said:


> my coworker had a conversation about going on spring break:
> son: i want to go on spring break.
> mom: can you put it off for a couple of months?
> son: it's just not convenient for us (college) seniors. (gotta party while you can!)
> ...


There was this old PSA (maybe in Canada, maybe here can't actually recall where I was when I saw it) but it was similar.

A mother was adjusting her child's dress and complaining that the belt was ruining how her dress looked "Oh honey that belt just ruins your pretty dress".

Then the next scene is the same kid in a wheelchair while her mother adjusts her chair belt across her lap saying the same thing "Oh honey that belt just ruins your pretty dress". Needless to say it was about being in a car and wearing a seatbelt. I looked through youtube but couldn't find it. Anyway, same thing. Convenience vs. health. Kids often don't have the mental maturity to chose health over what they perceive as an all important thing. That is why kids need parenting and parents. it is a tough one for sure.


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

also, college seniors don't seem to realize that the best partying happens after you graduate.
i've forgotten most of my college stuff. it's important but it's not everything.

did i mention that the college senior son is a biology student. wtf are they teaching in college. contagion should be understood by everybody, but especially a biology major.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> my nerdy (and fiercely proud of it!!) adult friends and I have been plyaing Magic:TG via Zoom or Google Meets...as well as D&D...sometimes you never grow up!! And that is a good thing....


I was watching "Antique Roadshow" last night and a woman showed up with her deceased husband's collection of Magic cards from 1993 ( I think). The "Power Nine" alone were valued at $75,000!

I thought the appraiser was gonna wet his pants.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

MSU Alum said:


> I was watching "Antique Roadshow" last night and a woman showed up with her deceased husband's collection of Magic cards from 1993 ( I think). The "Power Nine" alone were valued at $75,000!
> 
> I thought the appraiser was gonna wet his pants.


yep...I started playing in 1992, and have tons of cards from that era...I have many, many cards that are near $800 each...I don't have any of those real big cards cause there were not many printed...hence the large value, but I got into it loooong before it was popular.

I actually have more M:TG cards worth that kind of money than sports cards...and I have a huge sports card collection...


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

That was most disappointing high evaluation scene in the antiques roadshow entire history. 
The guy a few episodes back with the Rolex was great. Also really loved the guy with the Navajo Ute blanket which is now valued at 1.5 million or something crazy. The best was the lady with the 2 small jade sculptures that were made for the emperor of the Ming or some such dynasty. They were unremarkable and valued at 1.3 million or something. I can't find that last one in the annals of Google by know I watched it.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

I liked the episode where a lady found a Roman parade helmet wedged in the trusses of her attic. She cleaned it up with some Pledge. It was worth about $600k as I recall.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Hey Rockcrusher, can you tell me why some of my posts are being deleted?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah, I was trying to describe the video I referenced, to my son and he wasn't able to comment because there were no references he could look at.
> To clarify, he is only peripherally involved on the PCR development end. I think most of what he does is influenza, Rhino and Corona (the various viruses, he doesn't care for the beer!) modeling, but he does a lot of work with the CDC.
> 
> The post was partly an opportunity for a proud dad to brag!
> ...


Always good to be proud of your kids and it sounds like he is doing cool things! Stay safe!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Vespasianus said:


> Always good to be proud of your kids and it sounds like he is doing cool things! Stay safe!


Ditto!
To all.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

rockerc said:


> Hey Rockcrusher, can you tell me why some of my posts are being deleted?


Looks like someone moderated for politics. Wasn't me.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> Looks like someone moderated for politics. Wasn't me.


Hmmm, I thought I had been pretty restrained!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This raises an interesting consideration to explain the distribution of infection in Italy:

"I was forced to a curious conclusion, both discouraging and encouraging. It is that most of these diseases were probably not community-acquired. Instead, I would hazard a guess that most of them go by the curious name of "nosocomial" infections..."

I don't think this rises to an argument in favor of a proposition, but it does raise and interesting question that could have an enlightening answer!

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/24/the-italian-connection/


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> This raises an interesting consideration to explain the distribution of infection in Italy:
> 
> "I was forced to a curious conclusion, both discouraging and encouraging. It is that most of these diseases were probably not community-acquired. Instead, I would hazard a guess that most of them go by the curious name of "nosocomial" infections..."
> 
> ...


In the case of the health care workers, sure, but I don't think that is true for the vast majority of patients. What is scary about Italy is that the number don't fit. Also, everything he says has been reported in Wuhan.

I think most people are starting to agree that the true mortality rate for the general population is ~0.5%. This is different for varying ages but if you take that as the mortality rate, you can determine the true number of people infected. In the case of Italy, that would suggest that there are not 70,000 people infected but rather 1.4 million. If that is indeed the case, there will be a slow burn out over the next few months of 100-500 deaths per day. The USA is following the Italian model - actually it is ahead of it at the moment. And what is really scary is that diabetes, hypertension and coronary heart disease are all associated with mortality - which are all things the USA has in spades.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Woohoo! I just had my first glass of whiskey in forever. I'm feeling fine at long last and can get out and ride. Well, I still have all my work to do first.

It's a terrible thing to work from home when I have a couple of cool basses sitting next to me.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Curveball said:


> Woohoo! I just had my first glass of whiskey in forever. I'm feeling fine at long last and can get out and ride. Well, I still have all my work to do first.
> 
> It's a terrible thing to work from home when I have a couple of cool basses sitting next to me.


Yay! Take it easy tho... I went out yesterday for the first time in ages, and of course overdid it. Gonna need a day or two to recover now!


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## jvbutter (Aug 3, 2015)

all you that can ride, should enjoy it... some of us can not... I'm ready to take the bike to the back yard and do some drops off my patio deck.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Interesting discussion of:

-Pink eye and loss of smell/taste as presentations in otherwise asymptomatic people infected with COVID-19.
(There was a study some time ago regarding care givers and a reduction in infections from common cold when they wore contacts, but I can't find it.)
-Usefulness of fever in increasing the immune response. (No big surprise. We evolved the response for a reason, but this qualifies the reasons a bit.)
-NSAIDS Vs. COX-2 and degradation in the immune response. (For those of us, of a certain age that are sore from trying to get some exercise.)

Study source documents included.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

rockerc said:


> Yay! Take it easy tho... I went out yesterday for the first time in ages, and of course overdid it. Gonna need a day or two to recover now!


I went out yesterday and was sure I caught Covid-19 on the ride. Getting to the top of the hill I found myself short of breath and with a tight chest, clear symptoms...better today though.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

This is terrifying: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/nyregion/nyc-coronavirus-hospitals.html

Sorry about the paywall, I was able to read it on my phone, not on my PC.

Reefer trucks outside of the hospital to store bodies. 4000 coronavirus patients hospitalized. This is just as bad as Italy.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> As of 2017 data the overall death rate in the U.S. was 863.8 deaths per 100,000 population which translates into a death rate of 8.6%.
> 
> In the last 21 days about 160,000 Americans died. Take out COVID-19 deaths and the total is 159,782.
> In the mean time we've almost completely shut down the U.S.
> ...


You're off by a huge amount here. 863.8 divided by 100,000 is *0.863%* not the stated 8.6%. Also, you can't use a range of 21 days near the onset of an epidemic, because the death rates are increasing daily. Yesterday alone, more Americans died from COVID-19 than your listed range of 21 days combined. The day after tomorrow, nearly twice as many are predicted to die.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Storm13 said:


> You're off by a huge amount here. 863.8 divided by 100,000 is *0.863%* not the stated 8.6%. Also, you can't use a range of 21 days near the onset of an epidemic, because the death rates are increasing daily. Yesterday alone, more Americans died from COVID-19 than your listed range of 21 days combined. The day after tomorrow, nearly twice as many are predicted to die.


Oops.

Wait. Are you saying that more than 160,000 people died of COVID-19 in the last 21 days? Because that was the death count during that period.
Don't confuse 863 per 100,000 with a total of 863 and I'll promise to pay more attention to the decimal.

In the entire world I think we're up to 23,000 deaths for the entire extent of the pandemic with around 1024 in the U.S.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Meanwhile, in the U.K.
"Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK."

I'm not quite sure what to make of this.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K.
> "Status of COVID-19
> As of *19 March 2020*, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK."
> 
> ...


That's strange, because on March 24th, they had more deaths on that single day than they had had cumulatively up until the 18th. Odd time to lower the rating, just as the death rate is beginning to exponentially increase.



MSU Alum said:


> Oops.
> 
> Wait. Are you saying that more than 160,000 people died of COVID-19 in the last 21 days? Because that was the death count during that period.
> Don't confuse 863 per 100,000 with a total of 863 and I'll promise to pay more attention to the decimal.
> ...


No, I'm saying more people in the US died of COVID-19 yesterday than what died of COVID-19 in the US during the 21-day range you specified last week. You were using a date range at the very beginning of an epidemic and trying to linearly extrapolate a very small total. 
We are at approximately 1,100 US deaths right now, and will probably be at 1,400 before the end of the day today. At the rate of increase, we will be probably be over 2,000 by the end of the week.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I was out for a road ride the other day and experienced a couple of close passes by vehicles. It made me think there should be a presidential order issued:

"Due to crowding of ER's and emergency response personal's high workload, we request that motorist, if at all possible, please try to avoid hitting cyclists until this health crisis has subsided."


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Lone Rager said:


> I was out for a road ride the other day and experienced a couple of close passes by vehicles. It made me think there should be a presidential order issued:
> 
> "Due to crowding of ER's and emergency response personal's high workload, we request that motorist, if at all possible, please try to avoid hitting cyclists until this health crisis has subsided."


When someone with 10$ pretends to be worth 10 billion do not expect an understanding of size.
Remember the largest crowd ever LOL
LOL
LOL
Reality , , some are just allergics to that small stuff.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“More than 3,922 coronavirus patients have been hospitalized in the city. Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Wednesday offered a glimmer of hope that social-distancing measures were starting to slow the growth in hospitalizations statewide. This week, the state’s hospitalization estimations were down markedly, from a doubling of cases every two days to every four days.”


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Storm13 said:


> That's strange, because on March 24th, they had more deaths on that single day than they had had cumulatively up until the 18th. Odd time to lower the rating, just as the death rate is beginning to exponentially increase.
> 
> No, I'm saying more people in the US died of COVID-19 yesterday than what died of COVID-19 in the US during the 21-day range you specified last week. You were using a date range at the very beginning of an epidemic and trying to linearly extrapolate a very small total.
> We are at approximately 1,100 US deaths right now, and will probably be at 1,400 before the end of the day today. At the rate of increase, we will be probably be over 2,000 by the end of the week.


Yeah, I have no idea of the significance is of the decision in the U.K. or how/why they changed the status.
It may be that it opened up additional treating facilities.

When I said, 
"In the last 21 days about 160,000 Americans died. Take out COVID-19 deaths and the total is 159,782.",
My point was that in the previous 21 day range 160,000 people had died in the U.S. of all causes. At the time, the number from COVID-19 was very small. It still is, but that doesn't mean I think the number won't go up. It was a snapshot, not a rolling value.

"In the mean time we've almost completely shut down the U.S.
This can't go on forever."

The point is that a very small number of people at the time (and even now - compared to the 7500 or so people a day who die) is that the economic hit is something to consider and that we can not stay shut down forever.

Nothing I said suggests I was trying to extrapolate numbers in the future from the number at the time.

Also, the data is just not very good now. In Italy, as I posted, everyone who dies WITH COVID-19 is listed as dying FROM COVID-19.

"On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,"

This seems like a low end calculation, to me, but it does illustrate the problem.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K.
> "Status of COVID-19
> As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK."
> 
> ...


According to the guidelines in that, CV19 meets pretty much all those parameters! Boris trying to get the country back on its feet by minimizing the disease perhaps? That is his style after all. I will not be sharing this with my daughter who is high risk in London right now.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

There is some more (cautious) good news from the U.K.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...e-care-units-for-coronavirus-expert-predicts/
"...expected increases in National Health Service capacity and ongoing restrictions to people's movements make him "reasonably confident" the health service can cope when the predicted peak of the epidemic arrives in two or three weeks. UK deaths from the disease are now unlikely to exceed 20,000, he said, and could be much lower."
I seem to recall yearly flu deaths in the u.K. at around 17,000, but I may be off.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196477/j-ideas-neil-ferguson-tells-mps-lockdown/
"Professor Ferguson, who has been briefing the committee during the outbreak, said that it was clear that the country could not be in lockdown for a year, but wide-scale testing and contact tracing would be required to allow economies to restart.

He said: "The challenge that many countries in the world are dealing with is how we move from an initial intensive lockdown&#8230; to something that will have societal effects but will allow the economy to restart.

"That is likely to rely on very large-scale testing and contact tracing."

It appears that 1/2 of the 20,000 fatalities may have died in the year due to age and underlying conditions. 
I'm hesitant to rely on that particular claim - not because it's inaccurate - it just seems a bit cold-hearted. But it does comport with the 12% estimate from Italy.

The idea, of course, is not to just immediately roll back mitigation across the board, but to ease back as it is possible to do so.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> According to the guidelines in that, CV19 meets pretty much all those parameters! Boris trying to get the country back on its feet by minimizing the disease perhaps? That is his style after all. I will not be sharing this with my daughter who is high risk in London right now.


I get that! My daughter is the charge nurse at an OR.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

More good news.

APSF/ASA Guidance on Purposing Anesthesia Machines as ICU Ventilators

https://www.asahq.org/in-the-spotli...purposing-anesthesia-machines-for-ventilators

"Detailed information is provided and a quick reference guide (PDF) is available for downloading. The quick reference guide is intended to be a bedside tool and includes a suggested schedule for monitoring the effectiveness and safety of the anesthesia ventilator.

ASA is working with component societies to develop an inventory of local resources with the goal of moving machines to the locations where they are most needed."

This would add thousands (I heard tens of thousands) to the supply of ventilators/respirators (lung blower-uppers) available to COVID-19 patients - or anyone who needs them.

Just watched Dr. Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, presenting data and data overviews during today's brief. She knocked it out of the park!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Looks like you were right about bumping up the hospital ship schedule.....

“Trump will travel to Norfolk, Va., on Saturday to bid farewell to the USNS Comfort. The ship is expected to dock in New York on Monday, roughly a week ahead of schedule after it had to undergo repairs.”


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Why traveling during the quarantine is not recommended:

So like a lot of folks, I saw the quarantine as an opportunity to go on a trip, spend some time with my kids, take a break.

Then I saw that Moab and other small recreation towns were "closing" to outsiders.

At first I got mad: "how dare they close the great outdoors!".

Then I sat down and really thought about it... and I realized I was being short sighted.

When we travel, we bring out viral baggage everywhere we go. 

When we stop at the rest stop, we leave it on the door handles, the water fountain, the soda machine, the toilet.

When we stop to get fuel, we leave it on the gas pump, the door handles, the cooler, the counter.

When we stop to get groceries ...

When we inquire about camping or a room ...

When we park at the trailhead ....

So yeah, please stay at home, don't be that person, don't be selfish, instead be selfless and keep your virus at home where it belongs.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sharing this website with nice, concise graphics:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.htm...m3FJy5wA18ytWYI3BTcKxAcpbHIOrwe61b-1MzsLZu3d4


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Nat said:


> Sharing this website with nice, concise graphics:
> 
> https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.htm...m3FJy5wA18ytWYI3BTcKxAcpbHIOrwe61b-1MzsLZu3d4


Yes that's the tracker I've been following . Thanks for posting


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LTG Todd Semonite of USACE is on MSNBC right now. 

Apparently USACE is working with quite a few states to convert pre-existing, unused facilities such as sports stadiums into temporary field hospitals. Reason being: they already meet code, and have readily available heating, air conditioning, water and sanitary facilities. Last I heard, they were building field hospitals, so this is an interesting development.

Also, LTG Semonite must have worked as an auctioneer or a used car salesman growing up, because he is fastest talker I've ever heard.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Looks like you were right about bumping up the hospital ship schedule.....
> 
> "Trump will travel to Norfolk, Va., on Saturday to bid farewell to the USNS Comfort. The ship is expected to dock in New York on Monday, roughly a week ahead of schedule after it had to undergo repairs."


Go Navy!


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

I wonder how many people are going to die from not having health care any more after getting laid off.. How many people will kill themselves because their lives are in ruins, how many people will OD because of getting hooked on drugs after losing jobs..

My wife has to layoff 2 people tomorrow morning , my brother's company furloughed 1/3 of the HQ staff (several thousand people).. I'm out of work..

I'd personally way rather take my chances with this stupid virus then create the economic hellscape that is already happening as things are closed down. 


open stuff up and tell people to maintain distance or whatever 1/2 capacity at restaurants ..etc 

many thousands (hundreds of thousands) are going to die due to economic devastation if we don't get the economy moving.. I mean it is going to be ??? how long before any vaccines sooner or later we are going to have to take our chances so might as well be now.


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## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

atarione said:


> I wonder how many people are going to die from not having health care any more after getting laid off.. How many people will kill themselves because their lives are in ruins, how many people will OD because of getting hooked on drugs after losing jobs..
> 
> My wife has to layoff 2 people tomorrow morning , my brother's company furloughed 1/3 of the HQ staff (several thousand people).. I'm out of work..
> 
> ...


I believe that most people and most businesses can survive for two weeks without any income at all. Heck most folks that live payday to payday only get paid every two weeks as it is.

IF we could get EVERYONE to stay home for a full two weeks, we could probably knock this virus out right away with minimal illnesses and deaths and go back to work.

But people wont do it.

We are just getting started with this virus. If ONLY 8% of the population get it and ONLY 3% of those die from it we are looking at roughly 80,000 deaths here in the US. Hopefully it is not worse.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

atarione said:


> I'd personally way rather take my chances with this stupid virus then create the economic hellscape that is already happening as things are closed down.


What a short sighted, selfish thing to say. It's a good thing there are people in command who take a higher moral road. To sacrifice others to save what? An economy that serves the rich, wow, as if it's something worth saving,

This is a time for self examination, both as individuals and as a society. We have the opportunity to become something different or history can continue to repeat itself until humanity is history.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

atarione said:


> I wonder how many people are going to die from not having health care any more after getting laid off.. How many people will kill themselves because their lives are in ruins, how many people will OD because of getting hooked on drugs after losing jobs..
> 
> My wife has to layoff 2 people tomorrow morning , my brother's company furloughed 1/3 of the HQ staff (several thousand people).. I'm out of work..
> 
> ...


What are the changes your wife takes up drug use/abuse after she realizes she ruined the lives of 2 employees that she laid off?


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> This is a time for self examination, both as individuals and as a society. We have the opportunity to become something different or history can continue to repeat itself until humanity is history.


True, but I'll bet that a month or two after things are under control, people will be back to normal.
Sad, but true 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> "More than 3,922 coronavirus patients have been hospitalized in the city. Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Wednesday offered a glimmer of hope that social-distancing measures were starting to slow the growth in hospitalizations statewide. This week, the state's hospitalization estimations were down markedly, from a doubling of cases every two days to every four days."


I'm all about a glimmer of hope, and a smart leader would offer some, but more widely testing people, and not just testing more serious cases, could easily explain the trend. Gov Cuomo has been having a daily speech, and daily he says he does not understand why the prez has not used his powers to federalize the efforts and supplies, instead of leaving each state to itself, to compete against other states for the same supplies. And that's coming from a governor who has more money, power, and influence than most to get what he needs. In China hospital staff wore double gowns, here in the us some are having to wear trash bags because they have no gowns. Houston, we have a problem.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> I think you said this on another thread last week when the market was "only" at a one year low. How is that working out for you? The market hit a three year low this morning.


Recovering nicely actually.....


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> Recovering nicely actually.....


You are at the top, #1, Congrats no terrorist is beating U.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Recovering nicely actually.....


Best case scenario the markets will be tested, while us citizens are not...

US has now surpassed China for confirmed cases. While we can't necessarily believe china's numbers, we know for sure they did a lot more testing, so our numbers are likely much higher, and we have yet to peak. Not to mention we are not as prepared, or willing to sacrifice to curb


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> What a short sighted, selfish thing to say. It's a good thing there are people in command who take a higher moral road. To sacrifice others to save what? An economy that serves the rich, wow, as if it's something worth saving,
> 
> This is a time for self examination, both as individuals and as a society. We have the opportunity to become something different or history can continue to repeat itself until humanity is history.


The opportunity for dramatic,meaningful change to the way we value human life is upon us; sadly, human greed and selfishness will prevent this crisis from becoming a human triumph over universal adversity.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

*Verified COVID-19 Information Sources in Canada

FEDERAL*

Canadian Government Covid-19 Assessment Tool

Canadian Government Main COVID-19 Information Site:

Canadian Government COVID-19 Outbreak Update:

For those living in Ontario:

Ontario Government COVID-19 Main Information Site:

*WORLD*


Johns Hopkins Outbreak Tracker. Please Use this link as many others out there contain malware.

World Health Organization


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> *Verified COVID-19 Information Sources in Canada
> 
> FEDERAL*
> 
> ...


Wow according to that Hopkins tracker link Canada is doing something right in a big way. Or no testing?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Wow according to that Hopkins tracker link Canada is doing something right in a big way. Or no testing?


Well this is just a guess but maybe the USA denial approach is just terrible that makes us look good. You remember many in the states saying our system is terrible well in the USA it is very terrible.
That is just a drop.
Their ecology approach is also very terrible.
Some need a new cap.
We R #1 from the bottom.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> To sacrifice others to save what? An economy that serves the rich, wow, as if it's something worth saving,


While I agree with other parts of your post to some degree, this is over the top. What in your mind constitutes "rich"? Bill Gates? Warren Buffett? LeBron James? Jay Z? Sen. Diane Feinstein? Sen. Mark Warner? Barack Obama? The Bush Family? The Walton Family?

Or are you talking about countless electricians, plumbers, auto workers, shop owners who have worked for 40 plus years, paid taxes, and accumulated a decent account to retire on unsupported by the welfare state? Or even those who get completely "free" healthcare in emergency rooms and trauma centers? How about all of those kids at St. Jude that benefit immensely from wealth given freely so they and their parents have hope? 
I won't even go into the generosity of Americans around the world.

Who are these people for whom this economy is not worth saving?


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Another View In an infinite Universe/Reality...*

Forced Liquidation
Cluster**** Nation
For your reading pleasure Mondays and Fridays

Support this blog by visiting Jim's Patreon Page

Historians of the future, pan-roasting fresh-caught June bugs over their campfires, may wonder when, exactly, was the moment when the financial world broke with reality. Was it when Nixon slammed the "gold window" shut? When "maestro" Alan Greenspan first bamboozled a Senate finance committee? When Pets.com face-planted 268 days after its IPO? When Ben Bernanke declared the housing bubble "contained?"

If our reality is a world of human activity, then finance is now completely divorced from it for the obvious reason that, for now, there is no human activity. Everyone, except the doctors and nurses, and some government officials, is locked down. So, the only other thing actually still out there spinning its wheels is finance and, to those of us watching from solitary confinement, it is looking more and more like an IMAX-scale hallucination with Dolby sound.

How many mortals can even pretend to understand the transactions now taking place among treasury and banking officials? On their own terms ***- TALFs, Special Purpose Vehicles, Commercial Paper Funding Facilities, Repo Rescue Operations, "Helicopter Money" *- stand as increasingly empty jargon phrases that signify increasingly futile efforts to paper over the essence of the situation: the world is bankrupt. It's that simple.

The world is locked down and in hock up to its eyeballs. It faces what the bankers euphemistically call, ahem, a "work-out," which is to say, a restructuring. The folks in charge are resisting that work-out with all their might, because it will change many of the conditions of everyday life (especially theirs), but it is coming anyway. When debt can't be paid back, money vanishes. Money isn't capital, but it represents capital when it is functioning. When it isn't functioning, it stops being money. Now the whole world realizes that the debt can't be paid back, will never be paid back&#8230; and that's the jig that's up.

The Federal Reserve's balance sheet is the black hole in the financial universe where money goes to die. Money is rushing in there at a fantastic rate these days, and the Fed is trying to spew out new money at an equal rate to replace it - raising the question: is it even money anymore, or just a figment in the larger hallucination? Kind of seems that way, a little bit. They brought out their biggest money-launching bazookas only a few days ago, and it may only be few days more before that gigantic salvo proves inadequate. What then?

Perhaps the key is how long the ordinary folk agree to their orderly confinement, even in the face of the corona virus. That moment may be a bit further out, with the melodrama mounting especially in New York City right now, numbers of sick people going all hockey-stick, and frightful scenes in the hospitals. But then, whether it's a week from now, or Easter Sunday, or sometime after that, what will the ordinary folk do when they decide en masse to de-confine and come roaring out in the streets?

I must imagine that one vignette will feature a mob of inflamed formerly middle-class Long Islanders swarming into the Hamptons with blood in their eyes for the hedge funders cringing in their majestic show-places, who will discover with maximum chagrin that privet hedge is no hedge at all against the wrath of the plebes. There has never been a bigger swindle in history than the aggregate shenanigans on Wall Street lo these years of the new millennium, and we all know it, even if it's hard to explain just how they did it. The money boyz should be taking a haircut-and-a-half now instead of wailing for bail-outs, but such is the perversity of human greed that they made one last desperate attempt to nail down their fortunes when everybody else was losing&#8230;everything.

You understand that banking and finance was headed firmly south long before corona virus stole onto the scene. The tremors started back in September with the Fed jamming untold trillions into the black hole that had opened in overnight lending between banks. That was an infection, too, and boy did it spread - as fast as corona virus! This is indeed a most unfortunate convergence of events, but it should tell you that the banking and finance system, and the global economic arrangements that evolved with it, had already passed their event horizon. History had punched our ticket and was embarking us on a journey whether we were ready or not.

Is it a comfort to know that Joe Biden waits patiently on the sidelines to wave his aviator glasses and make everything normal again? I didn't think so. Mr. Trump, for all the awe of his office, is not much better positioned to turn about the ship we're now sailing on. Rough seas ahead, in uncharted waters, as we seek landfall in the next new world.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

atarione said:


> I wonder how many people are going to die from not having health care any more after getting laid off.. How many people will kill themselves because their lives are in ruins, how many people will OD because of getting hooked on drugs after losing jobs..
> 
> My wife has to layoff 2 people tomorrow morning , my brother's company furloughed 1/3 of the HQ staff (several thousand people).. I'm out of work..
> 
> ...


That's an amazingly selfish, naive or short-sighted response to have, especially for those of us in the 50+ age group. BEST case estimates are 10-15% of us would die. But hey, I guess you solved our Social Security insolvency problem.


> many thousands (hundreds of thousands) are going to die due to economic devastation if we don't get the economy moving.. I mean it is going to be ??? how long before any vaccines sooner or later we are going to have to take our chances so might as well be now.


While the US does have a disproportionate impact on global economy, opening up the US and "let the chips fall where they may" is not going to give the global economy an immediate recovery. Try as people might, being an isolationist country is not possible, and the more isolationist you get, the worse the overall world economy will become.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> *Another View In an infinite Universe/Reality...*


Food for thought.
( not sure he didn't mean "alternate" universe/reality....)


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> What a short sighted, selfish thing to say. It's a good thing there are people in command who take a higher moral road. To sacrifice others to save what? An economy that serves the rich, wow, as if it's something worth saving,
> 
> This is a time for self examination, both as individuals and as a society. We have the opportunity to become something different or history can continue to repeat itself until humanity is history.


1.) The economy serves all, not just the rich.
2.) A poor economy will hurt lower income worse than upper income.
3.) If one wants to protect jobs, then one must protect the employers.

Epidemiologist from Stanford, Oxford and even the author of the Imperial College model that the world is using to shut thing down are changing their tune as to how bad this could get by a large factor. Dr Birx communicated that pretty well.

Does it mean open the flood gates and start life as usual? No. It does suggest that some targeted resumption of the economy may be weeks away.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> While I agree with other parts of your post to some degree, this is over the top. What in your mind constitutes "rich"? Bill Gates? Warren Buffett? LeBron James? Jay Z? Sen. Diane Feinstein? Sen. Mark Warner? Barack Obama? The Bush Family? The Walton Family?
> 
> Or are you talking about countless electricians, plumbers, auto workers, shop owners who have worked for 40 plus years, paid taxes, and accumulated a decent account to retire on unsupported by the welfare state? Or even those who get completely "free" healthcare in emergency rooms and trauma centers? How about all of those kids at St. Jude that benefit immensely from wealth given freely so they and their parents have hope?
> I won't even go into the generosity of Americans around the world.
> ...


The economy is 100% geared towards giving the rich an increasingly disproportionate share of the wealth. The fact that the rest of us happen to get some minor benefit from stock market prices is a flaw, not a design.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

theMeat said:


> Wow according to that Hopkins tracker link Canada is doing something right in a big way. Or no testing?


We have good access for testing. Every hospital, public health clinic etc. 
Hospitals are fairly quick with reporting results but the turnaround time will vary according to geographical location (Canada is a big country) and proximity to a PHO Laboratory location that performs COVID-19 testing.

We only test if there are symptoms (eg. fever, cough etc)

There are test kits for asymptomatic testing but these are mostly reserved for research or special cases (I'm involved with a case now. A 96 year old in-patient with no social contacts and no staff testing positive) BTW he is being cared for isolation and is recovering!

Canada among top world performers in testing for COVID-19, despite shortcomings


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> 1.) The economy serves all, not just the rich.
> 2.) A poor economy will hurt lower income worse than upper income.
> 3.) If one wants to protect jobs, then one must protect the employers.
> 
> ...


That is definitively, absolutely, 100% false. The original statistics stated in that study that everyone was quoting were from the "we do nothing and let this run its course". The "new revised" statistics that people are referring to are included in the original report and are based on strict social distancing and quarantining (that we're not even close to reaching).


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Storm13 said:


> The economy is 100% geared towards giving the rich an increasingly disproportionate share of the wealth. The fact that the rest of us happen to get some minor benefit from stock market prices is a flaw, not a design.


It is quite a different thing to talk about the heart of a man and the wealth of a man.
Wealth and morality are not necessarily mutually exclusive. 
*Who is on your list of wealthy people that you would remove from the economy to make things better*


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Storm13 said:


> The economy is 100% geared towards giving the rich an increasingly disproportionate share of the wealth. The fact that the rest of us happen to get some minor benefit from stock market prices is a flaw, not a design.


Your post can be summed up in one word "ENVY". Why do I have my job? Simple, to make the owner of my company money. As soon as one is not making their employer money then they are of no use to the company. Don't like that? Become an entrepreneur and start your own company. Most "wealthy" people take that risk and do just that.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> It is quite a different thing to talk about the heart of a man and the wealth of a man.
> Wealth and morality are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
> *Who is on your list of wealthy people that you would remove from the economy to make things better*


Anyone with the last name of Trump or Kushner.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The fact that the rest of us happen to get some minor benefit from stock market prices is a flaw, not a design.


That is absurd.
It is a required component.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Storm13 said:


> Anyone with the last name of Trump or Kushner.


Ahhh so your economic model is based upon personal politics.
I appreciate your honesty. All of the good rich are on one side and all of the bad rich are on the other.
Even allowing for that, your theory still fails.
But that is a necessary casualty of selective moral outrage I suppose.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Your post can be summed up in one word "ENVY". Why do I have my job? Simple, to make the owner of my company money. As soon as one is not making their employer money then they are of no use to the company. Don't like that? Become an entrepreneur and start your own company. Most "wealthy" people take that risk and do just that.


You assume an awful lot. I currently work for a *non-profit* organization that makes ingredients for cancer drugs. My wife works in social services. We make plenty to support our family. We previously owned a business, 15 full-time employees. They all made more per hour than what my wife and I made. 
Most "wealthy people" do not get rich by starting a company. Bill Gates Marc Cuban and Jeff Bezos, sure. Many others, no.


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

Storm13 said:


> Anyone with the last name of Trump or Kushner.


or pelosi, soros, clinton, schumer, biden, gore, bezos... all of your gods are fabulously wealthy. they only want to control you.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Ahhh so your economic model is based upon personal politics.
> I appreciate your honesty. All of the good rich are on one side and all of the bad rich are on the other.
> Even allowing for that, your theory still fails.
> But that is a necessary casualty of selective moral outrage I suppose.


If you can't tell a joke/sarcasm (especially with the smiley face), then I'm sorry.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

cyclelicious said:


> We have good access for testing. Every hospital, public health clinic etc.
> Hospitals are fairly quick with reporting results but the turnaround time will vary according to geographical location (Canada is a big country) and proximity to a PHO Laboratory location that performs COVID-19 testing.
> 
> We only test if there are symptoms (eg. fever, cough etc)
> ...


Also, being a large country with less population density has to help.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Storm13 said:


> That is definitively, absolutely, 100% false. The original statistics stated in that study that everyone was quoting were from the "we do nothing and let this run its course". The "new revised" statistics that people are referring to are included in the original report and are based on strict social distancing and quarantining (that we're not even close to reaching).


No, what I said was not "definitively, absolutely, 100% false". I did not say Dr. Ferguson said his Imperial Model was false at all. What I said was the tune was changing, and it is. Why? With regard to the Imperial College model, as you stated, the disease is not being let to run unabated, so we are not seeing the real world follow his model. Reality trumps a model every time.

You might read the opinions of epidemiologists from Stanford and Oxford as they have their own opinions of the Imperial College model and seem to be more in line with what we are actually seeing.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Storm13 said:


> If you can't tell a joke/sarcasm (especially with the smiley face), then I'm sorry.


Ok, simple enough to answer the question then isn't it......
Your List?

You only get to take the "it was just a joke" thing so far.....

Post your list of The Rich you would remove to achieve your model economic system, now that we have the rhetorical humor behind us.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

be1 said:


> or pelosi, soros, clinton, schumer, biden, gore, bezos... all of your gods are fabulously wealthy. they only want to control you.


Absolutely true. Anyone in politics should not be allowed to profit through financial policies that they themselves legislate into law.
One of those is different from the others, but still hoards considerably more of our nation's wealth than anyone could possibly spend in a lifetime.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> One of those is different from the others, but still hoards considerably more of our nation's wealth than anyone could possibly spend in a lifetime.


Is the purpose of wealth to spend?
If so, on what, and by whom?


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Ok, simple enough to answer the question then isn't it......
> Your List?
> 
> You only get to take the "it was just a joke" thing so far.....
> ...


For starters, as stated in my most recent post, ANY POLITICIAN WHO HAS PROFITED OFF OF THE LAWS THAT THEY THEMSELVES HAVE ENACTED. I would go so far as to say that politicians should not have the ability to make money outside of their governmental salaries.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

Nurse Ben and Cyclicious are doing hero's work. (As well as all the other health care workers, grocery store personnel, gas station attendants, and all necessary in-the-public-employees)

They are all swamped. Emotionally we all face great challenges in the face of these uncertainties--like if we can survive economically let alone survive the disease! Its a funny state that we live within; Usually we have a high degree of denial about life's conditionality. We live thinking everything will always be fine, all the while lying to ourselves about how easily life can just be snuffed out in an instant. There are no guarantees, about anything. Life is precious in the here and now. Live now. Pay attention now. Be generous and kind, now.

Here is an unusual example of how people act. I have some friends that I ride with regularly (pre-Covid 19). One has a daughter who just returned from DC where she is attends GW. Another has a daughter who just returned from Portland where she attends Lewis and Clark. Another has a son on a gap year who just returned from Norway. All three of their kids got home last week. These kids are supposed to be self-quarantined for 14 days because they all flew on planes. They are and they aren't--which really means none of them are following strict quarantine guidelines (some of them are going out and about like times are normal). Plus, the family whose son just flew back from Norway, the mom is at home with a "temperature." So what did they all do? Last Wednesday they all got together for a group ride. Wow!

This is how it happens. We won't get it. We won't pass it on. We are OK. We just want to ride. We're smart; we know how to follow the guidelines. Right! I hope they got away with this one. But realistically, its a crap shoot. You might or you might not. Big risk to your family, your friends.

I ask one small favor. Just for now, take social distancing seriously. Just for now, try to live in a state of awareness, knowing the full consequences of being alive. Just for today.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Storm13 said:


> You assume an awful lot. I currently work for a *non-profit* organization that makes ingredients for cancer drugs. My wife works in social services. We make plenty to support our family. We previously owned a business, 15 full-time employees. They all made more per hour than what my wife and I made.
> Most "wealthy people" do not get rich by starting a company. Bill Gates Marc Cuban and Jeff Bezos, sure. Many others, no.


Good for you. You have selected a path, much like me, with little risk and little chance for financial reward. It works for me.

I work for a commercial construction company that builds for what some may consider "wealthy" people. (poor people do not build $10-$50M projects) The vast majority built their companies themselves. It's rare to have "old money" fund a project. If a $50M project goes south, what happens to me? I get a new job. The owner's of our company loose their houses and other assets. Risk/Reward.

One must admire how politicians, of both parties, can turn a $150k/year job into multi-millions within 10 years. How in the world does that happen? /s

BTW, "non-profits" can be a bit of a joke if one expects they do not make money. Every major hospital system near me is "non-profit". I have a buddy that is an exec at one (not a doctor) that makes high 6 if not 7 figures.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> For starters, as stated in my most recent post, ANY POLITICIAN WHO HAS PROFITED OFF OF THE LAWS THAT THEY THEMSELVES HAVE ENACTED. I would go so far as to say that politicians should not have the ability to make money outside of their governmental salaries.


We can agree on that.
Who is next?
As a bonus I'll grant you all of Trump's family and all family of his in-laws.


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## Storm13 (Dec 18, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Is the purpose of wealth to spend?
> If so, on what, and by whom?


That's how economics works. Hoarding of wealth hurts economic growth. People make money, people spend money so other people can make money and spend money. The instant hoarding takes place, that cycle of spend/earn is removed from the economy.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Storm13 said:


> That's how economics works. Hoarding of wealth hurts economic growth. People make money, people spend money so other people can make money and spend money. The instant hoarding takes place, that cycle of spend/earn is removed from the economy.


I thought the benefit to those "other people" was not "design" but "flaw".
OK, so who are these rich people who are not integral to an economy that only benefits others through a flaw in the system.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Storm13 said:


> That's how economics works. Hoarding of wealth hurts economic growth. People make money, people spend money so other people can make money and spend money. The instant hoarding takes place, that cycle of spend/earn is removed from the economy.


That assumes one sticks the "hoarded" money in a mattress. Which wealthy person does not put that money to work in the form of investments? You and I may buy a bike. A wealthy person might buy a bike company. Both contribute to the economy.

Getting back on topic- the virus does not discriminate based on net worth.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sometimes rhetoric shrivels in the harsh light of reality......
Every technology, every PPE, every medicine, every infrastructure that we bring to bear against Coronavirus is a result of two things, management and production.

Our economy is integral to our fight against it.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This study qualifies (mechanisms) and quantifies (the degree of change in response) changes in the immunological response as it varies with sleep.

"Brief Definitive Report|February 12 2019

Gα(sub s)-coupled receptor signaling and sleep regulate integrin activation of human antigen-specific T cells"
https://rupress.org/jem/article/216/3/517/120367/Gαscoupled-receptor-signaling-and-sleep-regulate

Everyone understand the importance of quality sleep to help prevent catching a cold, but this demonstrates the actual mechanism by which this could take place. It also shows the degree to which sleep deprivation can reduce the ability to fight off disease.

This is particularly important for health care providers and additionally points to the idea that, since those people are on "shifts" the degree to which you can maintain that shift schedule, and not vary it, can really help the providers.

It's not insignificant....it's not a 30 or 40% decrease in resistance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2629403/pdf/nihms82203.pdf

In this study with Rhinovirus, it was a whopping 294% decrease in outcomes.

This is going to be the challenge, and everyone knew it would be - to keep those on the front line healthy!


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> What a short sighted, selfish thing to say. It's a good thing there are people in command who take a higher moral road. To sacrifice others to save what? An economy that serves the rich, wow, as if it's something worth saving,
> 
> This is a time for self examination, both as individuals and as a society. We have the opportunity to become something different or history can continue to repeat itself until humanity is history.


Thank you for this voice of sanity.
If we cannot better ourselves after this crisis, we are doomed. It will be a world that I personally do not wish to be a part of, even tho I will not be for much longer anyway. I just spoke to my daughter and it seems she has inherited my fear. Please don't make her live in a society that has forgotten what is good.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Why would a governor threaten Doctors as a group in this specific circumstance?

* Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs warns that prescribing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 'without further proof of efficacy' may be investigated for administrative action; reaction from Dr. Jeff Colyer, former Kansas governor. *


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I expect there isn’t a person here who can’t in the context of recent events adopt personal change for the better.

I expect these changes to vary in detail and scope with each individual based upon conscience and personal habit.

I also expect there is no one who can legislate the morality of it at large upon the public effectively.

The Joy I have in living is more affected by my behavior than what I can coerce another to do.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> This study qualifies (mechanisms) and quantifies (the degree of change in response) changes in the immunological response as it varies with sleep.
> 
> "Brief Definitive Report|February 12 2019
> 
> ...


Interesting read. I've always been fascinated by the dynamic between what seems intrinsically innate and quantitative science. In addition to the points you made would be mistakes through fatigue and of course exposure.

Is there any science bearing out why this is infecting and killing males at a greater rate?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> I expect there isn't a person here who can't in the context of recent events adopt personal change for the better.
> 
> I expect these changes to vary in detail and scope with each individual based upon conscience and personal habit.
> 
> I also expect there is no one who can legislate the morality of it at large upon the public effectively.


No on can legislate it but people can lead by example.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Why would a governor threaten Doctors as a group in this specific circumstance?
> 
> * Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs warns that prescribing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 'without further proof of efficacy' may be investigated for administrative action; reaction from Dr. Jeff Colyer, former Kansas governor. *


Because a bunch of doctors have been prescribing these drugs FOR THEMSELVES, and hoarding them, and there are people who actually need them for day to day purposes, such as lupus.

https://www.propublica.org/article/...escriptions-for-themselves-and-their-families

That's about as shitty as it gets. "Do no harm", and all that.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> We have good access for testing. Every hospital, public health clinic etc.
> Hospitals are fairly quick with reporting results but the turnaround time will vary according to geographical location (Canada is a big country) and proximity to a PHO Laboratory location that performs COVID-19 testing.
> 
> We only test if there are symptoms (eg. fever, cough etc)
> ...


Wow
Good for Canada!
Find those low numbers puzzling


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

An update on the "reinfection" mystery.
It seems this can stick around a very very long time.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...mpaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

on 3rd thought I'm mostly noping out of this. but readding this link to this piece

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/489614-is-flattening-the-curve-bad-for-health

There are going to be costs no matter what we do...

Good day


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Because a bunch of doctors have been prescribing these drugs FOR THEMSELVES, and hoarding them, and there are people who actually need them for day to day purposes, such as lupus.
> 
> https://www.propublica.org/article/...escriptions-for-themselves-and-their-families
> 
> That's about as shitty as it gets. "Do no harm", and all that.


You appear to be making a Straw man argument.
Read again what I posted.
The threat was for treatment of COVID patients NOT misprescribing or hoarding.
That is not what she said based upon what I read.
That is not what the quote said.
Hoarding and misprescribing drugs is punishable.
Treating people who have no other treatment option who are in need of treatment should not be under threat from a governor.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Here is a copy of the actual letter in question and it makes very clear that what you suggest is a separate issue. The threat in question is the part of the letter that specifically and separately singles out treatment of patients, off label, which is well within the law, common practice, and not discouraged by the FDA.

Clearly what you posted is a completely different issue.

_Prescribing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine without further proof of efficacy for treating COVID-19 *or* with the intent to stockpile the drug may create a shortage for patients with lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, or other ailments for which chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are proven treatments. Reports of this conduct will be evaluated and may be further investigated for administrative action. Prescribing any kind of prescription must also be associated with medical documentation showing proof of the medical necessity and medical condition for which the patient is being treated. Again, these are drugs that have not been proven scientifically or medically to treat COVID-19._
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...cribing_and_Dispensing_3-24-2020_684869_7.pdf

I expect the letter actually places the state in legal jeopardy if people are denied legal, and available off label treatment in time of global pandemic and national emergency.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> This study qualifies (mechanisms) and quantifies (the degree of change in response) changes in the immunological response as it varies with sleep.
> 
> "Brief Definitive Report|February 12 2019
> 
> ...


Ha!

I should show this to my wife. She's a bit angry with me right now.

I just locked the bedroom door to keep her out saying I needed a good night sleep. We are both hospitalists and I'm in the middle of a stretch of 12 HR shifts and really needed good sleep. She goes back to work in a few days when I have off.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Nvm


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Here is a copy of the actual letter in question and it makes very clear that what you suggest is a separate issue. The threat in question is the part of the letter that specifically and separately singles out treatment of patients, off label, which is well within the law, common practice, and not discouraged by the FDA.
> 
> Clearly what you posted is a completely different issue.
> 
> ...


The governor is not saying don't use it. She is saying it must be accompanied with documentation stating why. The article you quoted says just that. So not sure what you're arguing. But the prez started picking on her, so fox followed suit, and now you. Ya know, like wash your hands and move along. Would imagine the governor knows that simple minded folk blindly follow along, and wants to curb the tribe from hoarding a drug that may do nothing for covid19, while harming others that actually need it


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Interesting read. I've always been fascinated by the dynamic between what seems intrinsically innate and quantitative science. In addition to the points you made would be mistakes through fatigue and of course exposure.
> 
> Is there any science bearing out why this is infecting and killing males at a greater rate?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


"Females are parasitized less often than men, with male immune systems having a lesser ability to fight off pathogens. While females often have a stronger immune response, this is not always beneficial, making them more susceptible to immunopathology such as autoimmunity compared to males."

Full link
https://www-labroots-com.cdn.amppro...munology/12425/female-vs-male-immune-response


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> The governor is not saying don't use it. She is saying it must be accompanied with documentation stating why. The article you quoted says just that.


Wrong Meat.

The letter very specifically states the efficacy is undocumented and without that documentation the prescribing of its use for COVID treatment will subject doctors and pharmacists to action.
The doctors and pharmacists agree this is the case.
The letter clearly states "these are drugs that have not been proven scientifically or medically to treat COVID-19,"

You completely misread the letter, if you read it at all.

You are injecting politics.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

atarione said:


> on 2nd thought I'm noping out of this one..
> 
> There are going to be costs no matter what we do...
> 
> Good day


https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma...thehill.com/opinion/finance/...bad-for-health
Interesting article. While in very general terms I applaud the spirit behind the international response to the pandemic, this thinking needs to be part of the post-Covid19 discussion about how society should respond to the next pandemic. Also has implications for the coming climate change debate, which if you accept the models, will accelerate pandemics and ever more destructive natural disasters.

Remember when Reagan talked about an alien invasion bringing the world's nations together in common purpose. More likely the impetus will originate closer to home. Tough to see the path forward, though, from the polarization of today to the level of cooperation that will be required.

Side note: The nonprofit from which I am presently furloughed does support work for Ruger Firearms. Gun sales are going through the roof as folks prepare for an Apocal... , ahem, uncertain future. Apparently the gun trade sees itself as an essential service. I don't need a new gun, mind you but I did pick up some ammo.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong Meat.
> 
> The letter very specifically states the efficacy is undocumented and without that documentation the prescribing of its use for COVID treatment will subject doctors and pharmacists to action.
> The doctors and pharmacists agree this is the case.
> ...


The letter states "these are drugs that have not been proven scientifically or medically to treat COVID-19," because it's true. Again, not sure what you're arguing when the article you quoted reads clear. If you want to talk about what "doctors think" the doctors I have talked to about this laugh at the amount of fake news that gets legs, and think it is cruel and misleading to promote this a fix when there is no clear indication at this point, other than these drugs at best may help. You don't come out with talk like that until you have something to say, as I watched Dr. Fauci say as much.

Oh, and not injecting politics. It's just pretty clear that what Fox News says today, you will be taunting members here with tomorrow, while pretending to have an original thought


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Talk to the doctors in NY running the trials.
They certainly aren’t as you say, laughing.
When pressed on numbers and specifics on hoarding, misprescribing, and impact on supply, the governor had no comment.
The only impact I have seen documented is a reduction to a 30 day supply per visit vs 90 for current patients.

Can you or Duke provide documentation on a single person being denied a prescription of these drugs for other treatment under a doctor’s care due to lack of supply?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Talk to the doctors in NY running the trials.
> They certainly aren't as you say, laughing.
> When pressed on numbers and specifics on hoarding, misprescribing, and impact on supply, the governor had no comment.
> The only impact I have seen documented is a reduction to a 30 day supply per visit vs 90 for current patients.
> ...


Two docs I spoke to are in ny. One in the New Rochelle epicenter, and one in white plains. Both were familiar and updated on the trials. Both laughed, and both said a handful of people over a week or two is not a trial. 
Please don't group LeDuke and I, and because I haven't provided "documentation" or don't feel like digging it up doesn't mean you have an argument. As an example... what was it 20 days ago when the prez said 15 ppl have it and that number would be down to zero by April, while you parroted wash your hands and move along. He knew what was coming, or should have, lied to us and you fell for it.
Some more reality... both these docs work in affluent areas, in state of the art facilities. And are also aware of how inadequate other hospitals are to cope with this. In one of these hospitals the head of the er was screaming for more ppe mid January because he saw what was happening elsewhere, who finally in beginning of February told everyone he was using his own money to stock the hospital. Thank goodness some ppl have brains.
Will finish this post by saying the smarts, energy, camaraderie and hospital staffs willingness to work on the front line is nothing short of amazing.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Two docs I spoke to are in ny. One in the New Rochelle epicenter, and one in white plains. *Both were familiar and updated on the trials. Both laughed, and both said a handful of people over a week or two is not a trial. *
> *Please don't group LeDuke and I,* and because I haven't provided "documentation" or don't feel like digging it up doesn't mean you have an argument.


_*"The state acquired 70,000 doses of hydroxychloroquine, 10,000 doses of zithromax and 750,000 doses of chloroquine in the last few days, according to a news release by New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo's office."*_

Hardly a "handful". Clearly a trail.

You and Duke made identical points about the impact of hoarding .

WASH YOUR HANDS, remains the first line most repeated advice from science. Your political gyrations cannot change that.
You cannot back up your claims in any of this as is the usual case.
Simply undocumented talking points.

*"We hope for optimistic results," Cuomo said during a press conference Tuesday, talking about the clinical trials. "The president and the FDA accelerated that drug coming to New York so the hospitals will start using that drug today."*


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

The “trails” I spoke of and shared with you were a very small group of 20something, and could have been the first, certainly one of.
The article you quoted are the drugs that were/are for a larger trial that just started, this past Tuesday I believe.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> The "trails" I spoke of and shared with you were a very small group of 20, and could have been the first, certainly one of.
> The article you quoted are the drugs that were/are for a larger trial that just started, this past Tuesday I believe.


You clearly stated* "Both were familiar and updated on the trials"

*


> the prez said 15 ppl have it and that number would be down to zero by April,


You keep misquoting that. Every time you are pressed to provide the quote or link to its source you drop it.

This is the closest most accurate I've found....
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-statements-about-the-coronavirus/


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yes, both er doctors I spoke to were familiar with and updated on the trial. One was working in New Rochelle, the epicenter, and one in white plains, a few miles from there


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Updated when? 
Either they were referring to the massive trial underway or they weren’t. You said they were updated and laughed at what they said was not a trial.
Can’t have it both ways.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

I already responded to your post above. Please stop changing the post I already responded to.
You never “pressed me for proof” of that quote and there is no need since he said it on national tv, like in real life in his own words


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You edit your posts all the time Meat.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> [/B]You keep misquoting that. Every time you are pressed to provide the quote or link to its source you drop it.
> 
> This is the closest most accurate I've found....
> https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-statements-about-the-coronavirus/


He definitely said that, actually the quote I heard was "We have 15 cases in the US and soon there will be none" Probably he said the same or about the same thing numerous times, he is a master of repetition.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

See link post 486, that probably has the one you are looking for.....

Here, I'll make it easy. Read the whole thing.
Note the time lines

Or not.

*Jan. 22:* "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It's going to be just fine." - Trump in a CNBC interview.
*Jan. 30: "*We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment - five - and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we're working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it's going to have a very good ending for us &#8230; that I can assure you." - Trump in a speech in Michigan.
*Feb. 10: *"Now, the virus that we're talking about having to do - you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat - as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We're in great shape though. We have 12 cases - 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now." - Trump at the White House. (See our item "Will the New Coronavirus 'Go Away' in April?")
*Feb. 14:* "There's a theory that, in April, when it gets warm - historically, that has been able to kill the virus. So we don't know yet; we're not sure yet. But that's around the corner." - Trump in speaking to National Border Patrol Council members.
*Feb. 23:* "We have it very much under control in this country." - Trump in speaking to reporters.
*Feb. 24:* "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!" - Trump in a tweet.
*Feb. 26:* "So we're at the low level. As they get better, we take them off the list, so that we're going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we've had very good luck." - Trump at a White House briefing.
*Feb. 26:* "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done." - Trump at a press conference.
*Feb. 26:* "I think every aspect of our society should be prepared. I don't think it's going to come to that, especially with the fact that we're going down, not up. We're going very substantially down, not up." - Trump at a press conference, when asked if "U.S. schools should be preparing for a coronavirus spreading."
*Feb. 27: *"It's going to disappear. One day - it's like a miracle - it will disappear." - Trump at a White House meeting with African American leaders.
*Feb. 29:* "And I've gotten to know these professionals. They're incredible. And everything is under control. I mean, they're very, very cool. They've done it, and they've done it well. Everything is really under control." - Trump in a speech at the CPAC conference outside Washington, D.C.
*March 4:* "[W]e have a very small number of people in this country [infected]. We have a big country. The biggest impact we had was when we took the 40-plus people [from a cruise ship]. &#8230; We brought them back. We immediately quarantined them. But you add that to the numbers. But if you don't add that to the numbers, we're talking about very small numbers in the United States." - Trump at a White House meeting with airline CEOs.
*March 4:* "Well, I think the 3.4% is really a false number." - Trump in an interview on Fox News, referring to the percentage of diagnosed COVID-19 patients worldwide who had died, as reported by the World Health Organization. (See our item "Trump and the Coronavirus Death Rate.")
*March 7:* "No, I'm not concerned at all. No, we've done a great job with it." - Trump, when asked by reporters if he was concerned about the arrival of the coronavirus in the Washington, D.C., area. 
*March 9:* "So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!" - Trump in a tweet.
*March 10:* "And we're prepared, and we're doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away." - Trump after meeting with Republican senators.
A day later, on March 11, the WHO declared the global outbreak a pandemic.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> See link post 486, that probably has the one you are looking for.....


So the quote in question plus a bunch of other lies?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> So the quote in question plus a bunch of other lies?


Look JB, I posted every quote in the link. Simply documenting what you and Meat refused to do. Now you can comment on what was actually said, not what you think you heard.

That is considerably more accommodating of you than you were of me in our last conversation.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Here's one and there's many more. Sure you can find many were he now claims he knew better. Talk about having it both ways


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Updated when?
> Either they were referring to the massive trial underway or they weren't. You said they were updated and laughed at what they said was not a trial.
> Can't have it both ways.....


When?







Right about when our fearless leader was sharing with the world this new promising drug. He probably heard about the same trial I just shared with you. Not the trail you speak of which has only started a couple of days ago. But instead of "I didn't know that, thank you...

You either ignore parts, so you can pick up/make up others, use humor ploy, or baffle with bs. And occasionally try to show good character. You should run for election


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I guess it is too much to expect you to have a clue about clinical trials in your home state underway since Tuesday on a huge scale, being the subject at hand, rather than some trial you heard about that wasn’t a trial a while back with some 20 people.

OK Meat, if that’s your story and you’re stickin’ to it, so be it.

As for elections, I voted for a New York Icon last time.
So far quite a few think he is handling all this quite well.

Yankee quirks notwithstanding......


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Your subject at hand has been all over the news for over a week now. I tried to share some reliable info that you probably didn’t hear. You don’t want to talk about the dr I mentioned who had the foresight to order ppe while our prez didn’t, and was harmfully downplaying and deceiving what we would come to find out. Now he claims otherwise. While we have him on film saying harmful things in his own words. And then claiming he knew better. Oh, you don’t want to talk about that quote anymore? Lol


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> See link post 486, that probably has the one you are looking for.....
> 
> Here, I'll make it easy. Read the whole thing.
> Note the time lines
> ...


Awesome OF, but you left out the date Trump knew COVID-19 was a pandemic, which was before everyone else of course.

January 32nd: We have this thing under tremendous control. Beautiful control, really. Everyone says so. Except WHO. WHO won't tell you it's a pandemic. It takes a wartime President to tell you that. So even though I have commanded this Chinese virus to miraculously disappear, I'm telling you I knew it was a pandemic before WHO, which from now on I'm going to call HU, because it sounds, you know, more Chinese.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Awesome OF, but you left out the date Trump knew COVID-19 was a pandemic, which was before everyone else of course.
> 
> January 32nd: We have this thing under tremendous control. Beautiful control, really. Everyone says so. Except WHO. WHO won't tell you it's a pandemic. It takes a wartime President to tell you that. So even though I have commanded this Chinese virus to miraculously disappear, I'm telling you I knew it was a pandemic before WHO, which from now on I'm going to call HU, because it sounds, you know, more Chinese.


It's not "OF". It's oz, as in the wizard of. It's odd how well it fits, think about it


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Lots of people are just missing it Trillion$$$ are being stolen right under their eyes and they are focussing on tiny details.
The thing is they will wake up with each 20,000$ of added debts just poorer and weaker for the next big grab. Different countries are and will manipulate numbers all smoke and your kids and grandkids are just stuck in a real deep hole while people like me over 60 will never see a revenue increase. Those interest rates will blow up from all that demand and the ones with million$/billion$ will just get richer every second.

Keep on dicussing about smoke and use all your guns to protect yourself.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

33red said:


> Lots of people are just missing it Trillion$$$ are being stolen right under their eyes and are focussing on tiny details.
> The thing is they will wake up with each 20,000$ of added debts just poorer and weaker for the next big grab. Different countries are and will manipulate numbers all smoke and your kids and grandkids are just stuck in a real deep hole while people like me over 60 will never see a revenue increase. Those interest rates will blow up from all that demand and the ones with million$/billion$ will just get richer every second.
> 
> Keep on dicussing about smoke and use all your guns to protect yourself.


So what's your plan?


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

theMeat said:


> So what's your plan?


Keep on riding.
I do not have a car, no cell phone, i am happy without the fluff.
It was easy to see a smaller human population was coming
and the removing of borders was just making the population 
vulnerable to the powerfull.
They pretend to be capitalists but receive ton$$$ in subvention$$$.
Without a house i do not care if their price drops 15 or 35%.
I will not owe 350,000$ on something worth 280,000$.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Miker J said:


> Ha!
> 
> I should show this to my wife. She's a bit angry with me right now.
> 
> I just locked the bedroom door to keep her out saying I needed a good night sleep. We are both hospitalists and I'm in the middle of a stretch of 12 HR shifts and really needed good sleep. She goes back to work in a few days when I have off.


Best of luck!
Yes, stay healthy!

My daughter (as I've said - the OR charge nurse)....why does that sound like, "hello young lady, I'd like to introduce my son, the doctor?"....
Anyway, there are currently a sizable number of people at the OR that are presenting with coughs, fever, etc. and they've all been tested and all have RSV.

Of course, it's like working at a leprosy ward and seeing a finger fall off. 
Let's just say it elicits concern!

For those who don't know what RSV is, it's a common viral infection. I haven't been able to get data on current numbers, but it is seasonal, apparently and causes about 14,000 deaths per year in the elderly >65. Bad time not to be superman!

https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/about/symptoms.html

It has similar symptoms with a similar incubation period, so if it were me - a borderline hypochondriac anyway - I'd be asking for testing on a daily basis.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

cyclelicious said:


> We have good access for testing. Every hospital, public health clinic etc.
> Hospitals are fairly quick with reporting results but the turnaround time will vary according to geographical location (Canada is a big country) and proximity to a PHO Laboratory location that performs COVID-19 testing.
> 
> We only test if there are symptoms (eg. fever, cough etc)
> ...


And meanwhile, in Colorado....I read today where it is taking two to three weeks to get test results back. What is the use, at that time the person is either dead or recovered. It is nothing more than a data point.

You still can't even get a test unless you are a health worker, police/fire, or are so sick you are hospitalized.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> And meanwhile, in Colorado....I read today where it is taking two to three weeks to get test results back. What is the use, at that time the person is either dead or recovered. It is nothing more than a data point.
> 
> You still can't even get a test unless you are a health worker, police/fire, or are so sick you are hospitalized.


That's not completely true. Many are being tested. Depends on what state you're in, and whether or not your symptoms. While we are way behind the curve of effective testing, testing must be done to determine who can safely return to work, and to be able to look back and learn from this. You can be tested today and be negative, and catch the virus on your way home from being tested


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> That's not completely true. Many are being tested. Depends on what state you're in, and whether or not your symptoms. While we are way behind the curve of effective testing, testing must be done to determine who can safely return to work, and to be able to look back and learn from this. You can be tested today and be negative, and catch the virus on your way home from being tested


This also illustrates the value of an antibody test. Test positive, with no viral load and you're immune and non-infective.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> This also illustrates the value of an antibody test. Test positive, with no viral load and you're immune and non-infective.


True. Although how long ppl remain immune is in question, which we won't know without testing. How quickly the virus evolves is another question. Maybe the most relevant to our current situation.
But guessing you already knew that


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> True. Although how long ppl remain immune is in question, which we won't know without testing. How quickly the virus evolves is another question. Maybe the most relevant to our current situation.
> But guessing you already knew that


I'm only in the early stages of learning what I don't know. 
The catalog is vast.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

33red said:


> Keep on riding.
> I do not have a car, no cell phone, i am happy without the fluff.
> It was easy to see a smaller human population was coming
> and the removing of borders was just making the population
> ...


Sounds like a plan 
Was asking in broader terms, like a better plan than the one you criticized? Would hope there be a better plan


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Shark said:


> True, but I'll bet that a month or two after things are under control, people will be back to normal.
> Sad, but true
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I don't think people will be same for a long time. This is an unprecedented trauma for the entire world and it will have physiological impacts for generations. I'm a little tight with money - that is the impact of the great depression on my parents, both of whom had a hard time through those years.

Children sheltering in place will be traumatized in ways we don't understand yet. The economy will be injured for years.

The one bright spot I've seen so far is watching and listening to Governor Newsome's calm and competent, and totally honest, approach to the crisis, especially when contrasted to so many other "leaders".

I'm 72 and I've never seen anything remotely like this world wide disaster. I hope that we learn from this experience and take faster action next time around. This time, we fired all the vigilant experts that Obama put in place after SARS to save money, a necessary action if we're to give even bigger tax cuts to the rich. No early warning system anymore. Oh well, they would have been ignored anyway.

We're hiding here in the country doing our best to avoid any contact hoping to stay corona free (except, of course, for beer) until better treatment regimes are developed and the avalanche recedes from the health care system.

Stay safe, ride safely, and be healthy.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I'm only in the early stages of learning what I don't know.
> The catalog is vast.


Lol
Said much better than I eva could. But you probably knew that too


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> This time, we fired all the vigilant experts that Obama put in place after SARS to save money, a necessary action if we're to give even bigger tax cuts to the rich. No early warning system anymore. Oh well, they would have been ignored anyway.


"Vigilant Experts", LMAO.
I remain of the opinion that reflection will reveal a much different and more measured opinion of our reaction to this infection.

It is "interesting" to witness the lengths people will go to, to further their own political agenda. And they have their die hard Party constituents. So many who for so long clamored for a move away from Party Politics are now so set in party political views that they can hardly wash their hands without expressing irrational contempt for the suggestion.
People in a perpetual state of Feargasm.
Still Learning.....


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

well good thing the Chinese have been so "transparent" about their experiences with "lock downs" ... because it worked super for them..

oh wait or did it????

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...in-wuhan-prompt-new-questions-of-virus-s-toll


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Lol
> Said much better than I eva could. But you probably knew that too


:thumbsup:


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Another reason for cautious optimism.
2nd French study results.

"In a preliminary clinical trial on a small cohort of COVID-19 patients, we demonstrated that those treated with hydroxychloroquine (600 mg per day, N=20 patients) had a significant reduction in viral carriage at D6-post inclusion, with 70% of patients testing negative for the virus through nasopharyngeal PCR, compared to untreated controls (N=16) with only 12.5% patients testing negative using PCR at D6-post inclusion (16). In addition, of the twenty patients who were treated with hydroxychloroquine, six received azithromycin for five days (for the purposes of preventing bacterial super-infection) and all (100%) were virologically
cured at D6-post inclusion, compared to 57.1% of the remaining 14 patients (16)."

That's a big sentence, but a 100% cure (With Chlor+Azith), 70% (With Chlor only) Vs. 12.5% (W/O) at D6 is a pretty good start!

https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Can't believe anything China states, be lucky if the true numbers were even triple as China tries to downplay their involvement in the starting of the world epidemic.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Another reason for cautious optimism.
> 2nd French study results.
> 
> "In a preliminary clinical trial on a small cohort of COVID-19 patients, we demonstrated that those treated with hydroxychloroquine (600 mg per day, N=20 patients) had a significant reduction in viral carriage at D6-post inclusion, with 70% of patients testing negative for the virus through nasopharyngeal PCR, compared to untreated controls (N=16) with only 12.5% patients testing negative using PCR at D6-post inclusion (16). In addition, of the twenty patients who were treated with hydroxychloroquine, six received azithromycin for five days (for the purposes of preventing bacterial super-infection) and all (100%) were virologically
> ...


The possible untapped potential here is the reduction in spread impact......
I think hindsight on this one is going to be quite a lesson.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Another reason for cautious optimism.
> 2nd French study results.
> 
> "In a preliminary clinical trial on a small cohort of COVID-19 patients, we demonstrated that those treated with hydroxychloroquine (600 mg per day, N=20 patients) had a significant reduction in viral carriage at D6-post inclusion, with 70% of patients testing negative for the virus through nasopharyngeal PCR, compared to untreated controls (N=16) with only 12.5% patients testing negative using PCR at D6-post inclusion (16). In addition, of the twenty patients who were treated with hydroxychloroquine, six received azithromycin for five days (for the purposes of preventing bacterial super-infection) and all (100%) were virologically
> ...


Hopefully in addition to ventilators, and PPE companies will start crank out these drugs ASAP.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Israel is slated to ship over 6 million doses sometime in April.

*Israeli generic drug giant Teva announced Friday that it will provide ten million doses of its anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine, which could potentially prove effective in fighting the coronavirus pandemic, to US hospitals free of charge.*
*The company said six million doses will be delivered to US hospitals by March 31, and more than ten million in a month.*
*"**We are committed to helping to supply as many tablets as possible as demand for this treatment accelerates at no cost," Teva executive vice president Brendan O'Grady said.*

https://www.timesofisrael.com/teva-...alaria-pills-with-potential-to-help-covid-19/


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Whats the cost on the drug?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

https://www.businessinsider.com/malaria-pill-chloroquine-tested-as-coronavirus-treatment-2020-3

"If clinical data confirm the biological results, the novel coronavirus-associated disease will have become one of the simplest and cheapest to treat and prevent among infectious respiratory diseases," a group of French researchers wrote in a paper published on February 15 in the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300662?via=ihub#bib0013


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

They will push the drug through with less stringent safeguards in order to get the drug to the masses in time.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Israel is slated to ship over 6 million doses sometime in April.
> 
> *Israeli generic drug giant Teva announced Friday that it will provide ten million doses of its anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine, which could potentially prove effective in fighting the coronavirus pandemic, to US hospitals free of charge.*
> *The company said six million doses will be delivered to US hospitals by March 31, and more than ten million in a month.*
> ...


Yeah, I think Bayer is contributing 3 million.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Is the CDC good enough for a reference on the safety of the drug under a doctor's supervision?

"Chloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers"

https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/Chloroquine.pdf


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

33red said:


> Keep on riding.
> I do not have a car, no cell phone, i am happy without the fluff.
> It was easy to see a smaller human population was coming
> and the removing of borders was just making the population
> ...


Sounds like you have it figured out, congrats!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A ways back in this thread I posted a summary from UpToDate with the risks of taking chloroquine; the CDC used the same info in their briefings.

Chloroquine is an old medication, hasn't been used for malaria in a long time because the malarial parasite developed immunity.

If chloroquine really does reduce the virus load, that would be amazing ... but don't be surprised if it really doesn't.



OzarkFathom said:


> Is the CDC good enough for a reference on the safety of the drug under a doctor's supervision?
> 
> "Chloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers"
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/Chloroquine.pdf


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182877/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine
Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Simple thing everyone can do to help protect themselves from this virus and other viruses cold, flu ect.., is to raise their vitamin-d level to an optimal level. 

There is tons of research out there that showing vitamin-d's role in immune health. Vitamin-D boost your immune system and more importantly regulates/modulates the immune responses. It keeps your immune system from going nuts and attacking healthy cells (hyperactive immune response).

The recommended 800ui of vitamin-d a day and 25 ng/mL blood level is to low according to many of the vitamin-d researchers (doctors). Minimal level blood level should be at least 30 ng/ml, optimal is around 50 ng/ml and levels up to 150 ng/ml is safe. 

To get your vitamin-d levels to 30ng/ml you need around 2000 to 4000 ui a day and can safely take 10000 to 30000 ui a day.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

That simple plan will work.
Ask people to do nothing.
Drug them.
Steal Trillionsss$$$.
Take a year off.
Repeat.
If you call it capitalism there is no other option
they told you. 
It is the best way
the only way.
Do i hear some chanting ?
Is it 4 more years ?


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

33red said:


> That simple plan will work.
> Ask people to do nothing.
> Drug them.
> Steal Trillionsss$$$.
> ...


Yup....Trump 2020

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

2old said:


> Yup....Trump 2020
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Just a suggestion, new chant 
100 millions babies
no need to mention to pay my greatest$ DEFECCITS$


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> If chloroquine really does reduce the virus load, that would be amazing ... but don't be surprised if it really doesn't.


Don't be surprised if it does:
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf

This is the second study. I posted the first a while ago.

At D6-post inclusion:
1. No treatment, 12.5% virus free
2. Hydroxychloroquine 70% virus free
3. Hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin 100% virus free

Every medication has a huge laundry list of POSSIBLE side effects. 
The list for of side effects for chemo aren't even possible side effects - they're no sh*t what's going to happen.

These meds have to be given under supervision. I'd guess a BILLION people have taken chloroquine over the course of 60 years so we understand it, and Chloroquine QT prolongation and liver toxicity is apparently a bigger deal in COVID patients. That makes detailed supervision mandatory, it doesn't preclude its use.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

More POSSIBLE good news:
The Italians are already trying this:
"The FDA has approved the initiation of a double-blind, randomized phase III clinical trial of the oncology supportive care drug tocilizumab (Actemra) for use in combination with standard of care for the treatment of hospitalized adult patients with severe COVID-19 pneumonia, according to Genentech (Roche), the manufacturer of the interleukin-6 receptor antagonist.1"

Oncology Nursing News
https://www.oncnursingnews.com/web-...-iii-tocilizumab-trial-for-covid-19-pneumonia

As I recall, interleukin-6 is a mediator for the cytokine storm that can be so deadly in end stages (Can't reference a publication for that bold claim....just somewhere in the back of my mind). Interrupt that - derail the storm?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Looks promising


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Looks promising


I think promising is a good adjective in these cases.

We're in the "preponderance of evidence" Vs. the "beyond a reasonable doubt" phase when this many people are at risk.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I think promising is a good adjective in these cases.
> 
> We're in the "preponderance of evidence" Vs. the "beyond a reasonable doubt" phase when this many people are at risk.


Don't know enough about meds, or the supply and demand of drugs. If there's enough supply to go around without causing deaths to those who need it for other reasons, then in my book even if it's effectiveness is in the single digit percentage with side effects factored in, it's worth it. And at this point that appears to be the case.
Wonder if these drugs have any effectiveness at virus prevention, or if they only help a person heal


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

No one in this country has been denied their prescribed medication of these drugs due to off label use to fight COVID-19.
Not a single documented case.
The Governor who threatened to investigate doctors who prescribed it and pharmacists who filled the prescriptions for COVID did it for purely political reasons.

Supply of these common and inexpensive medications was never the issue.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I haven't been following this thread closely so IDK if this is relevant to the discussion or has already been brought up:

https://people.com/health/kaiser-pe...prescriptions-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus/


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Lone Rager said:


> I haven't been following this thread closely so IDK if this is relevant to the discussion or has already been brought up:
> 
> https://people.com/health/kaiser-pe...prescriptions-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus/[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Two different issues.
Managing supply by reducing refill size, prosecuting hoarding or illegal prescriptions, transitioning existing patients to effective alternatives are all separate issues from threatening doctors and pharmacists for making perfectly legal prescriptions.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey, if anybody needs some I have some for my fish tank

https://www.pharmacypracticenews.co...g-Fish-Tank-Cleaner-to-Prevent-COVID-19/57707


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Gotta at least be able to read labels if you are gonna play doctor.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nah, reading helps you explore, it doesn’t make you smart


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

This thread conjured the image of a bunch of old people sitting around enjoying the smell of their own farts.

No thanks for the visual.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> The Governor who threatened to investigate doctors who prescribed it and pharmacists who filled the prescriptions for COVID did it for purely political reasons.


Reads like a reminder of appropriate prescription and dispensing to me


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This is a good interview on the JAMA network

(The JAMA Network is a collection of 12 international peer-reviewed medical journals that features the best in research, reviews, and commentary across the spectrum of medical and surgical practice. Led by the flagship journal JAMA®, the JAMA Network's mission is to improve the public health by providing the information that matters most to practitioners and researchers.) I'm not sure if it's part of The Journal of the American Medical Association.

This episode addresses the French study, and some of its limitations, and the dangers of the drugs individually, and synergistically.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> This is a good interview on the JAMA network


Looks like prophylactics gets a kibosh


----------



## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Ladmo said:


> This thread conjured the image of a bunch of old people sitting around enjoying the smell of their own farts.
> 
> No thanks for the visual.


Isn't there a club or something for that? The Smart Fellers Club, or some such?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Radium said:


> Isn't there a club or something for that? The Smart Fellers Club, or some such?


Oh boy, is your memory going?
Because I'm a fart smeller and I'm here to tell ya.
You don't mind if I call you "old Ray" do ya. In a welcoming way


----------



## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

atarione said:


> many thousands (hundreds of thousands) are going to die due to economic devastation if we don't get the economy moving.. I mean it is going to be ??? how long before any vaccines sooner or later we are going to have to take our chances so might as well be now.


How about we advocate for an appropriate social safety net rather than sending people to work when doing do just expands the crisis and prolongs the misery. Why is it reality in the US that any unforeseen crisis drives us regular people to desperation within a couple weeks?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Looks like prophylactics gets a kibosh


We'll need to start practicing social dickstancing...staying at least 6" apart.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> We'll need to start practicing social dickstancing...staying at least 6" apart.


Have been with wife for a long time, think that's covered. Need to distance myself from fridge in these strange times so I don't get fat


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

steadite said:


> How about we advocate for an appropriate social safety net rather than sending people to work when doing do just expands the crisis and prolongs the misery. Why is it reality in the US that any unforeseen crisis drives us regular people to desperation within a couple weeks?


People dont want to lose their place of residency, and their wheels, and their toys. People live beyond their means, they live pay check to pay check with no rainy day fund. They prefer to lease a vehicle then to buy an older vehicle outright. They have to pay the bills in order to look good in front of their family and friends. That new $1000 cell phone, their leased vehicle(s), their Gucci clothing/bags/shoes.

That is why I am not eating out. I dont trust no minimum wage worker to not work if they get symptoms. I dont trust them to self isolate without being forced to or told to.

It all boils down to Human Nature.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

During quarantine, after eating all those Twinkies, maybe a hot bubble bath with rubber duckies is something to consider.

Or, better yet, a Finnish sauna!

I'm thinking getting sh*tfaced in a hot tub and then rolling in the snow is on my schedule tonight.
Of course, that's just business as usual.
Does it help with COVID-19? Who knows, sounds fun.

The effects of heat/cold on the innate immune system - the part involved in interferon production and the lack thereof in patients that have poor outcomes.





The studies referenced are listed after the video.

Interferon injections are not uncommon in some disease treatments. I wonder why they are not being considered given this line of reasoning.

And, from one of the posts, by mulli mulli:
"Just a heads up and don't shoot the messenger etc, but if you get an email from the Department of Health or NHS saying not to eat Tinned Pork because it contains Covid-19, just ignore it. It's Spam."


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I guess this answers my previous question on interferon.

"Hospitalised patients in the UK will inhale the interferon beta 1a (IFN-β) formulation or a placebo to see if SNG001 is effective against the COVID-19 coronavirus.

https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalr...rial-sng001-therapeutic-in-covid-19-patients/

"Previous research at Southampton has shown IFN- β to be lacking in the immune response of high-risk groups for COVID-19, such as the old or those with chronic disease, leading the researchers to decide the SNG001 therapeutic may work in coronavirus patients."

It seems that the timing - i.e. early in the infection - would be important.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

matt4x4 said:


> People dont want to lose their place of residency, and their wheels, and their toys. People live beyond their means, they live pay check to pay check with no rainy day fund. They prefer to lease a vehicle then to buy an older vehicle outright. They have to pay the bills in order to look good in front of their family and friends. That new $1000 cell phone, their leased vehicle(s), their Gucci clothing/bags/shoes.
> ...
> It all boils down to Human Nature.


It might be brainwashed into bad habits.
Young kids play with paper, empty boxes,
not 200$ gifts. You are talking about rich people problems.
Many consider the bank will not accept a transaction that they should not do
so they just use cards until it is too late.
It will take them 15 years to repay and they are stuck
paying interests, fees etc...


----------



## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

This is decades ago, but I think probably more common now than then.

My sister worked in a bank as a teller.

This young lady walked up and handed my sister a letter she had received from the bank and stated she didn't understand what it said.

My sister explained to her that her account was overdrawn and the letter was explaining that to her.

The young lady said that can't be possible. Look, I still have checks in my check book.

True story.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The Food and Drug Administration on Sunday approved the anecdotally promising malaria drug for emergency use to treat hospitalized patients for COVID-19.
The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) said in a statement it has accepted 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate donated by Sandoz, the Novartis (NVS) generics and biosimilars division, and one million doses of chloroquine phosphate donated by Bayer Pharmaceuticals (BAYRY).
............

Earlier Sunday, Novartis CEO told a German newspaper the drug was effective, saying, "Pre-clinical studies in animals as well as the first data from clinical studies show that hydroxychloroquine kills the coronavirus."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fda-...ia-pill-for-covid-19-treatment-133908197.html


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

33red said:


> It might be brainwashed into bad habits.


Thats what advertising is, big part of it I'd assume. Trillions spent on advertising. Enviromental situations too, ever see a thin baby/kid with two fat parents? Rare if ever.


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

theMeat said:


> Have been with wife for a long time, think that's covered. *Need to distance myself from fridge in these strange times so I don't get fat*


Tell me about it.
Is it too late to trademark 'The Quarantine 15'? I may be 1/2 way there. :madman:


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Speaking of.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> The Food and Drug Administration on Sunday approved the anecdotally promising malaria drug for emergency use to treat hospitalized patients for COVID-19.
> The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) said in a statement it has accepted 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate donated by Sandoz, the Novartis (NVS) generics and biosimilars division, and one million doses of chloroquine phosphate donated by Bayer Pharmaceuticals (BAYRY).
> ............
> 
> ...


'Anecdotally promising' are the key words in your copy/paste. 
In your last link this... ' The drug's effects on patients has result in a shortage for patients who use it for arthritis and lupus, and there have been reports of hoarding among medical professionals. Several states recently took steps to limit the number of prescriptions filled, by forcing increased accountability of who is prescribing the drug and why." So it would seem the honorable gov you decided to jump on the bandwagon of beating up on was ahead of that curve. 
Me, think it's a time for truth and compassion, and would trust an actual studies finds, over what a drug companies ceo, gasp, told a German newspaper. Hope it's true just the same


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

theMeat said:


> 'Anecdotally promising' are the key words in your copy/paste.
> In your last link this... ' The drug's effects on patients has result in a shortage for patients who use it for arthritis and lupus, and there have been reports of hoarding among medical professionals. Several states recently took steps to limit the number of prescriptions filled, by forcing increased accountability of who is prescribing the drug and why." So it would seem the honorable gov you decided to jump on the bandwagon of beating up on was ahead of that curve.
> Me, think it's a time for truth and compassion, and would trust an actual studies finds, over what a drug companies ceo, gasp, told a German newspaper. Hope it's true just the same


Here is a great news.
In 3 weeks in USA so many will B infected the risk of infecting new ones will be smaller. For only a money grab of 15,000$US/tax payer the smoke show will have been a great distraction.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

MSU Alum said:


> Speaking of.....


Except Vince Neil would be $100M+ richer, no concerts now to keep the cash flowing in. ADHD Tommy in same boat.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> 'Anecdotally promising' are the key words in your copy/paste.
> In your last link this... ' The drug's effects on patients has result in a shortage for patients who use it for arthritis and lupus, and there have been reports of hoarding among medical professionals. Several states recently took steps to limit the number of prescriptions filled, by forcing increased accountability of who is prescribing the drug and why." So it would seem the honorable gov you decided to jump on the bandwagon of beating up on was ahead of that curve.
> Me, think it's a time for truth and compassion, and would trust an actual studies finds, over what a drug companies ceo, gasp, told a German newspaper. Hope it's true just the same


I would only suggest that the data exceeds anecdotal. "Anecdotal" suggests just personal accounts rather than facts. There are actual case series - the two from France - that have documented the actual viral loads in those who are on the drug and those who are not. There's also a lot of in vitro data, but it's a big step to in vivo. There are NO double blind studies and those ARE the gold standard.

Novartis has pledged a global donation of up to 130 million hydroxychloroquine tablets, pending regulatory approvals for COVID-19. Mylan is ramping up production at its West Virginia Facility with enough supplies to make 50 million tablets. Teva is donating 16 million tablets to hospitals around the U.S. On Friday afternoon, Amneal pledged to make 20 million tablets by mid-April. 
In addition to the numbers, the production rate has ramped up dramatically.

These are for global distribution, so the numbers going to the U.S. are more in the 30-40 million range, short term, but production is ramping up.

There is no question - doctors were hoarding. I think that may be coming under control. I applaud efforts to make that happen. I did read the message put out by the governor. It's available online:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...cribing_and_Dispensing_3-24-2020_684869_7.pdf

It is open to some interpretation. It seemed the message unduly suggested that use of the drug for COVID-19 could be punished, but see what you think.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Is there any info on how many tablets would equal a course to knock out Covid? 

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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> Is there any info on how many tablets would equal a course to knock out Covid?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Asking for a friend?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Is there any info on how many tablets would equal a course to knock out Covid?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


I believe the French case series (I'm not sure it rises to a "study") used 600 mg per day (I think 200 mg 3 times per day) for 6 days.

I think the South Koreans were using more like 400 mg twice a day for 10 days.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Asking for a friend?


Ha no, though I am concerned for my parents. It would help to quantify those pill numbers if we knew what an effective dose/course was.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Death rate in Italy climbs to 11%, this guy illustrates why. Do not take this $hit lightly.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Takes a lot to punish dr's, even in no pandemic times. After all, in the end, they just move states and have a clean slate, thats the way it works. Can't do that with your drivers license these days can you.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Death rate in Italy climbs to 11%, this guy illustrates why. Do not take this $hit lightly.


Numbers I just looked at put it near 12%.
I had also heard on NPR today that only hospital deaths were accounted for in that number but not sure how accurate that may be.

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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I would only suggest that the data exceeds anecdotal. "Anecdotal" suggests just personal accounts rather than facts. There are actual case series - the two from France - that have documented the actual viral loads in those who are on the drug and those who are not. There's also a lot of in vitro data, but it's a big step to in vivo. There are NO double blind studies and those ARE the gold standard.
> 
> Novartis has pledged a global donation of up to 130 million hydroxychloroquine tablets, pending regulatory approvals for COVID-19. Mylan is ramping up production at its West Virginia Facility with enough supplies to make 50 million tablets. Teva is donating 16 million tablets to hospitals around the U.S. On Friday afternoon, Amneal pledged to make 20 million tablets by mid-April.
> In addition to the numbers, the production rate has ramped up dramatically.
> ...


I get your point and you make some good ones. "Anecdotally promising" was quoted directly from first sentence of article that was shared. In this day and age of fake news think it's more important than ever to be truthful, and/but certainly don't want to be a naysayer to drugs that potentially can help us big time. 
On the topic of fake news... could not understand why oz was stuck on week old news about Michigan gov. So google got me searching and come to find out that just about every right wing media outlet was jumping on the beat her up bandwagon after she pushed back on the prez and the prez started throwing doodie balls. Read the document the gov issued and while words are open to interpretation I see no words that are threatening, as it is accused to be. It read like a reminder of prescription and distribution of these drugs, and then come to find out that is exactly what the document's topic is titled. "RE: Reminder of Appropriate Prescribing and Dispensing". Among further investigation come to find out documents like this are pretty common, and given the current hype, concern, and pandemic, certainly should be withstanding, instead of targeted for political spin


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I still can't believe that some states aren't operating under stay at home order. One unknowing carrier entering a community is all it takes. This thing is going to hit those places really, really hard if they keep this up.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The Governor clearly threatened doctors who prescribed and pharmacists who filled prescriptions for the drugs for the treatment of COVID. 

The letter makes that clear. Well note use of the word “or” differentiates between the legal and illegal behavior.
Otherwise there was no reason to include that which is perfectly legal and common practice with that which is illegal, hoarding and illegal supply to the public.

When asked she could provide not a single example of a patient not receiving medication due to hoarding or misprescribing.

As noted many times supply issues that may arise have been resolved by private sector donations of tens of millions of doses free of charge.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> I still can't believe that some states aren't operating under stay at home.
> 
> This thing is going to hit those places really, really hard if they keep this up.


Public transit still running in Portland
https://www-oregonlive-com.cdn.ampp...es-frustration-over-coronavirus-response.html

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

It is a week old all right and she remains behind the curve. While NY has been treating over 1000 patients for a week, she maintains her threat to investigate any doctor who legally prescribes it for COVID patients during a global pandemic.

All of your political deflection does not change those simple facts.



> So google got me searching and come to find out that just about every right wing media outlet was jumping on the beat her up bandwagon _*after she pushed back on the prez *_and the prez started throwing doodie balls.


Pushed back on the prez for what? Suggesting that the drugs might prove useful and that NY gov Cuomo agreed to use them in NY, that's what. You just pointed out that her decision was politically motivated.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> I still can't believe that some states aren't operating under stay at home order. One unknowing carrier entering a community is all it takes. This thing is going to hit those places really, really hard if they keep this up.


Does that include people fleeing NY to infect other states?
Are you suggesting closing state borders to reduce spread?
How does one abide by a stay at home order by fleeing to Florida?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Public transportation still open in nyc. Considered essential service


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Does that include people fleeing NY to infect other states?
> Are you suggesting closing state borders to reduce spread?


Uh, no. That would be unconstitutional.

Are you actually suggesting that the origin of coronavirus in FL was from a person from NY?

Do you have any proof of that, or just blaming people you don't like?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

New York is moving at unprecedented speed and scale in a human experiment to distribute tens of thousands of doses of anti-malarial drugs to seriously ill patients, spurred by political leaders including President Trump to try a treatment that is not proved to be effective against the coronavirus.
With no proven treatment for the coronavirus, and infections in New York topping 30,000, health experts say the Food and Drug Administration has moved with uncommon speed to authorize New York's sweeping plan to distribute the drugs through hospital networks.
Planning for such a complex initiative would ordinarily take up to nine months, those experts say. In New York, the U.S. epicenter of the covid-19 pandemic, that timeline has been compressed into three days.
The effort has raised concerns among health experts about safety risks - including the danger of fatal heart arrhythmia and vision loss associated with the drugs - and of raising false hopes in the American public. But Trump's direct intervention into complex medical issues, as well as New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo's embrace of the strategy, has generated popular excitement about the drugs.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ment-its-now-being-tested-thousands-new-york/


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Uh, no. That would be unconstitutional.


You might want to read it again.
The Federal and even state governments have broad authority to restrict travel by individuals who are a threat to the safety of others.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Does that include people fleeing NY to infect other states?
> Are you suggesting closing state borders to reduce spread?
> How does one abide by a stay at home order by fleeing to Florida?


More fake news. I'm in ny, have houses in other states. So do many of my friends, family and neighbors. While some people, mostly older or compromised did seek shelter in areas away from epicenter with good reason. Can't say more have left than would have without covid 19. As a matter of fact most would rather be here, as I would.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> More fake news. I'm in ny, have houses in other states. So do many of my friends, family and neighbors. While some people, mostly older or compromised did seek shelter in areas away from epicenter with good reason. Can't say more have left than would have without covid 19. As a matter of fact most would rather be here, as I would.


It isn't fake news. 
States are conducting enforcement.
Fact.

The point is not how many more or less are doing it, but the potential for spread.
Not even addressing the absurdity of a stay at home order that allows interstate travel of infected individuals.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/us/coronavirus-united-states.html

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local...o-i-95-will-screen-for-new-york-city-drivers/


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> . Are you actually suggesting that the origin of coronavirus in FL was from a person from NY?
> 
> Do you have any proof of that, or just blaming people you don't like?


Now you are just making things up. Speaks to the weakness of your argument.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> You might want to read it again.


I'll go with a 7-2 decision from the SCOTUS, in which the majority concluded that the Constitution affords everyone:

1) The right to enter one state and leave another;
2) The right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger;
3) For those who want to become permanent residents, the right to be treated equally to native-born citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saenz_v._Roe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileges_and_Immunities_Clause


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> I'll go with a 7-2 decision from the SCOTUS, in which the majority concluded that the Constitution affords everyone:
> 
> 1) The right to enter one state and leave another;
> 2) The right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger;
> ...


LMAO. You are woefully misinformed if you think that applies here.

Now make the case that a stay at home order does not include a trip to another state.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Now you are just making things up. Speaks to the weakness of your argument.


Huh?

You are the one who said:

"Does that include people fleeing NY to infect other states? Are you suggesting closing state borders to reduce spread?
How does one abide by a stay at home order by fleeing to Florida?".

Unless your statements are to be taken as completely unrelated to each other, you imply that people are FLEEING NY, and FLEEING to FLORIDA. And thus bringing the disease with them. Or did you actually intend to write those statements, in the same paragraph, to be read as completely unrelated to each other?

FWIW, it's been present in Florida just as long as it's been in NY. The second NY case was a lawyer who had just returned from...Florida.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> It isn't fake news.
> States are conducting enforcement.
> Fact.
> 
> ...


Now you're moving the target. I'm in ny, can tell you there is no "fleeing" going on, but...
Not only is interstate qt unconstitutional, but will do little to help anyone, anywhere. The cat's out of the bag. That ship sailed weeks ago when the same person who claimed he was contemplating a tri-state lock down, which btw he can't, was telling people this would disappear. In hindsight that is much more damaging than a gov of Michigan reminding doctors and pharmacists of the law.

Would also say moving forward you should keep your eye on Barr, who is trying to fly under the cloak of the pandemic to remodel some of the liberties you pretend to care for.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> LMAO. You are woefully misinformed if you think that applies here.
> 
> Now make the case that a stay at home order does not include a trip to another state.


We get people coming down here from Wyoming regularly to go to Costco. They are complying with the intent and letter of the Colorado's shelter in place order. If Wyoming issued a similar one as well, they'd still be going about their business in a manner that complied with their home state's stay at home order.

Good luck rounding up a bunch of Wyoming citizens for the unconscionable crime of getting some tortilla chips and peanut butter filled pretzels.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You brought the whole thing up Duke.
I simply pointed out that interstate travel is incompatible with staying at home.
It really is that simple.
You made the case that states that didn’t practice stay at home would pay a huge price.
It is clear that states that have those orders in place have not stopped their own residents from traveling to other states.
I pointed out the fallacy of that in the context of interstate travel.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You brought the whole thing up Duke.
> I simply pointed out that interstate travel is incompatible with staying at home.
> It really is that simple.
> You made the case that states that didn't practice stay at home would pay a huge price.
> ...


Fake news and moving targets. LeDuke said in a post that he couldn't believe some states weren't doing a stay at home order. It was not directed at anyone, then you started. 
Along those lines, should mayors in Florida who didn't do stay at home orders to protect now be liable for infecting ppl that visited there. Should these places now be forced to keep and care for these out of staters they wanted to profit from?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap..._medium=social&utm_term=Valerie/#3bc5205143f2

Hubei re-shuttering movie theatres and is believed China's numbers are off by a factor of 40. Overall that article makes the world seem like one giant clusterfukc.

Thousands of national flights today in the USA. From where I sit shelter in place seems to be more lip service than anything.

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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Well. This is quite the thread, huh?

Still hoping this gets under control.
The virus, not the thread!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Fake news and moving targets. LeDuke said in a post that he couldn't believe some states weren't doing a stay at home order. *It was not directed at anyone, then you started. *
> Along those lines, should mayors in Florida who didn't do stay at home orders to protect now be liable for infecting ppl that visited there. Should these places now be forced to keep and care for these out of staters they wanted to profit from?


*Wrong.
The post was specifically directed at states without a stay at home order.

*


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> *Wrong.
> The post was specifically directed at states without a stay at home order.
> 
> *


More moving targets.
Now you're arguing states are a someone? SMH
Note: you avoided direct questions, again


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> Well. This is quite the thread, huh?
> 
> Still hoping this gets under control.
> The virus, not the thread!


Best predictions seem to have it peaking in mid-May and (hopefully) under control somewhere around August. It's going to be a long storm to weather.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> Well. This is quite the thread, huh?
> 
> Still hoping this gets under control.
> The virus, not the thread!


Wouldn't be the same without them arguing, lol!

I've been reading all your posts, keep up the good work!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You simply cannot make a case for the efficacy of a stay at home order and a case against restricting interstate travel from a logical point of view.

Now as a practical matter, which is why I posed the question rather than make the case,
it is clear to me that states rather than the federal government are better equipped to patrol their travel and enforce quarantine on interstate travelers. That is what Florida is doing directed specifically at New York residents. As far as restricting interstate travel to control a deadly pandemic both of you are wrong on the Constitutionality of it.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Cornfield said:


> Wouldn't be the same without them arguing, lol!


Oddly entertaining!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You simply cannot make a case for the efficacy of a stay at home order and a case against restricting interstate travel from a logical point of view.
> 
> Now as a practical matter, which is why I posed the question rather than make the case,
> it is clear to me that states rather than the federal government are better equipped to patrol their travel and enforce quarantine on interstate travelers. That is what Florida is doing directed specifically at New York residents. As far as restricting interstate travel to control a deadly pandemic both of you are wrong on the Constitutionality of it.


You made the case just a few days ago about gov Cuomo's glimmer of hope which is a direct result of stay at home order. 
Oh where would Florida be with ny money...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You are still missing the point Meat.
This isn’t a sectional issue. 
Many states are dealing with quarantine/screening of interstate travelers.
NY and Florida just happen to have a high level of travel between the two and NY has the highest concentration of known infection and death from the virus.
It is a matter of cost benefit of actions taken to reduce the spread of the virus. 
A balance of Federal and State authority and resources.
Simple as that.

I simply posed the question to point out the conflict.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You are still missing the point Meat.


You keep changing the point every time get proven wrong, or forget what your point is. 
Will say I'm glad you are now willing to admit it's a "deadly pandemic" and have discontinued your wash your hands and move along mantra. For you this is huge!
Oh, but you still continue to change/edit your entire post's point, after it was already responded to...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

All three of us have edited posts during this exchange.
Obviously while the others were responding.
The best scientific advice in this deadly pandemic is still to wash your hands.
And you continue to suggest otherwise.

Now you wash your hands.
I’ll move along.
See how it goes when we work together.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> All three of us have edited posts during this exchange.
> Obviously while the others were responding.
> The best scientific advice in this deadly pandemic is still to wash your hands.
> And you continue to suggest otherwise.


There's editing a post, then there's what you do.
Your advice and intention was not just 'wash your hands'. You're not fooling anyone, at least be honest with yourself.

This is how it goes. Try to follow, you're good at it.
You say/make a point - "You simply cannot make a case for the efficacy of a stay at home order"
Meat says - wait, you made that case the other day, declining infections, stay at home order from Gov Cuomo, etc. 
You say - I'm missing the point and make up another one

Now my edit to respond to your edit. I do not wish for you to move along. Although can understand why you would


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

You want to be logical, justify why each tax payer is down 15,000$US.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> It's spreading....LMAO.
> Just like the Toilet Paper Panic.
> The Big Lie Fallacy.
> 
> This is unfolding into an incredible learning experience.....


From this thread, last week


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap..._medium=social&utm_term=Valerie/#3bc5205143f2
> 
> Hubei re-shuttering movie theatres and is believed China's numbers are off by a factor of 40. Overall that article makes the world seem like one giant clusterfukc.


I think this is correct. Seems China has been grossly understating their true numbers. Amazing watching people parrot Chinese propaganda, though.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

joshtee said:


> I think this is correct. Seems China has been grossly understating their true numbers. Amazing watching people parrot Chinese propaganda, though.


I was telling my coworkers the numbers from China are *maybe* 10% of reality. That it's likely 10x the numbers they were reporting.

Seems I was the one who was way off.... on the low side.

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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

Real talk below. Shows that this is serious but still not as crazy as the news makes it out to be.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/health/coronavirus-lower-death-rate/index.html

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Andrew8404 said:


> Real talk below. Shows that this is serious but still not as crazy as the news makes it out to be.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/health/coronavirus-lower-death-rate/index.html


Wait, isn't cnn news media?

That's just one study/opinion among many, most others conclude death rates are probably higher than what's reported and will likely rise. Italy is at ~11%. If anything I think news media is generally downplaying this crisis but admittedly I don't follow mainstream news outlets very closely.


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wait, isn't cnn news media?
> 
> That's just one study/opinion amongst many, most others conclude death rates are probably higher than what's reported and will likely rise. Italy is at ~11%. If anything I think news media is generally downplaying this crisis but admittedly I don't follow mainstream news outlets very closely.


True, I typically hate statistics but the current numbers of you just do the math is 2%. So still super low. Meaning you almost have the same chance of dying in a car crash vs corona.

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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)




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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Andrew8404 said:


> True, I typically hate statistics but the current numbers of you just do the math is 2%. So still super low. Meaning you almost have the same chance of dying in a car crash vs corona.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is a false equivalence, check the vid I linked a few posts back. 2% is huge, thousands more will likely die due to car crashes, cancer, and other common maladies because of that 2% number.


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wait, isn't cnn news media?
> 
> That's just one study/opinion among many, most others conclude death rates are probably higher than what's reported and will likely rise. Italy is at ~11%. If anything I think news media is generally downplaying this crisis but admittedly I don't follow mainstream news outlets very closely.


Yes it is, so which CNN reports do you believe? The over sensationalized ones or the more even keeled? Maybe take them with a grain of salt and draw your own conclusions.

Not to start a pissing match J.B. but you're the first I came across that even suggested that this is being down played...


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

Yup, exactly I think everything is always more in the middle. Do I think this is serious of course. But do I think this is going to kill millions then no. 


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> It is a week old all right and she remains behind the curve. While NY has been treating over 1000 patients for a week, she maintains her threat to investigate any doctor who legally prescribes it for COVID patients during a global pandemic.
> 
> All of your political deflection does not change those simple facts
> 
> ...


This is how it started. In real life.
On Hannity's show, Trump ripped into Whitmer, while not even hiding the fact that his anger was stoked by her criticism of his failure to deliver urgently needed supplies.

You should've know these things before you started, you're welcome. 
As far as me proving the gov was politically motivated, brother please. A politician being political, gasp. Do you live in Michigan? Or is it you that's politically motivated. No answer is necessary


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Andrew8404 said:


> True, I typically hate statistics but the current numbers of you just do the math is 2%. So still super low. Meaning you almost have the same chance of dying in a car crash vs corona.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I saw on PBS last night that the chances of being killed by a hippo is 290 times that of being killed by a shark....unless of course, you're sitting on a surfboard off the coast of Florida. That seemed quite profound last night after a couple of cocktails. Anyway, it shows some of the limitations of statistics, I suppose.

The CFR in Italy is 11%, but I'd take that with a huge grain of salt.
In the U.S. today, it's 1.9% - of the confirmed cases, but that number will change once the dust settles. BTW, that's the rate in New York State as well.
IN NYC this morning, it was 1.5% - but that's a lagging indicator. That WILL go up.

Just to reiterate some info from a week ago...

To reiterate:
"On this board, we know that almost all of us, if we live long enough, will die WITH prostate cancer. Not that many will die OF prostate cancer.

The data on the number of Italian patients dying OF COVID-19 seems as though it would be a straight forward set of data, but it MIGHT be more complicated than that:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...ts-died-italy/

I expect this is the reason:
""The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46," Prof Ricciardi says. "So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality."

But, this could be skewing the data some. To what extent would be good to know once this passes.

""The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals WITH the coronavirus are deemed to be dying OF the coronavirus."

"On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three," he says.

(I would even take THAT data with a grain of salt!)

On first glance, I'd say that an 80 year old smoker who died of a heart attack while suffering from a severe case of COVID-19 would fall into the "Died of COVID-19 category". If he had a heart attack when he was told he had COVID-19....well, maybe not."

I'm pointing this out because there seems to be some growing anecdotal evidence (thanks to theMeat for making me look that word up to make sure I'm using it right) that people are actually committing suicide over this disease. 
It's easy to get caught up in the bad news....but it's not all bad news.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

gdb85 said:


> Yes it is, so which CNN reports do you believe? The over sensationalized ones or the more even keeled? Maybe take them with a grain of salt and draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Not to start a pissing match J.B. but you're the first I came across that even suggested that this is being down played...


Like I said, I don't follow mainstream media closely, just going from the little I've seen. Show me an example of of a piece that's over-sensationalized. New York city is a war zone, entire countries are practically shut down and we're not even close to the peak. A grim picture that seems difficult to over sensationalize to me.


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

All I know is I work at a hospital and I’m not worried about it. I’m sure I have it or will have it shortly. All I’m trying to say is that this isn’t a death sentences by any stretch of the word. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Like I said, I don't follow mainstream media closely, just going from the little I've seen. Show me an example of of a piece that's over-sensationalized. New York city is a war zone, entire countries are practically shut down and we're not even close to the peak. A grim picture that seems difficult to over sensationalize to me.


Agreed. My company deployed over 13000 people to work from home status in 2 weeks. It's shut straight the f down here. Some are now saying that the entire 2020 mountain biking season is in jeopardy. This is a typical notice:

https://albertaparks.ca/albertapark...a-environment-and-parks-response-to-covid-19/

Not the right time for me to have thrown down on an 11-6.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Three of my daughter's co-workers have now tested positive for "bat-fever". All three initially presented with loss of smell and taste.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Not the right time for me to have thrown down on an 11-6.


Dude. Try buying an 11-6, a Smashpot, and a brand new SUV five weeks ago in anticipation of a summer trip to Whistler that's not likely to happen. Aye chihuahua, my head hurts.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Like I said, I don't follow mainstream media closely, just going from the little I've seen. Show me an example of of a piece that's over-sensationalized. New York city is a war zone, entire countries are practically shut down and we're not even close to the peak. A grim picture that seems difficult to over sensationalize to me.


NYC is not a war zone. A small number of city run hospitals that should have been avoided regardless of a pandemic are inundated. Think upwards or 80% of people that get it don't go to hospital. Many don't even know they had it. Hate crimes are up yet a very neighborly atmosphere for the majority, people come together. If infrastructure like food gas or police take a big hit, could get crazy. Not unlike anywhere. With so many workers contracted, gig, illegals, and people not native to ny here, suddenly without pay, and no way to make any is concerning

I did not stay at a holiday inn last night.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> NYC is not a war zone. A small number of city run hospitals that should have been avoided regardless of a pandemic are inundated. Think upwards or 80% of people that get it don't go to hospital. Many don't even know they had it. Hate crimes are up yet a very neighborly atmosphere for the majority, people come together. If infrastructure like food gas or police take a big hit, could get crazy. Not unlike anywhere. With so many workers contracted, gig, illegals, and people not native to ny here, suddenly without pay, and no way to make any is concerning
> 
> I did not stay at a holiday inn last night.


No offense but I'll take the word of doctors who are working there over yours. Maybe "war zone" is overstating it some but according many in the trenches it's pretty bad., and definitely predicted to get worse.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Some interesting graphical data on "flattening the curve" during the Spanish Flu epidemic in the U.S.
Particularly the tendency for a second wave in areas where flattening the curve was successful initially, and then restrictions were eased.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/#close


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I was telling my coworkers the numbers from China are *maybe* 10% of reality. That it's likely 10x the numbers they were reporting.
> 
> Seems I was the one who was way off.... on the low side.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 40x number is kind of hard to believe, but they seem to be doing damage control with their numbers. It's too bad, because it's hard for the rest of the world to predict their own peak will be without accurate data from China.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

joshtee said:


> The 40x number is kind of hard to believe, but they seem to be doing damage control with their numbers. It's too bad, because it's hard for the rest of the world to predict their own peak will be without accurate data from China.


I'm not so sure. China is a totalitarian regime that doesn't really give a **** about individual people. If it was "only" the numbers they reported, several hundred million people wouldn't have been put on complete and total lockdown. They don't care about "only" 3000 people dying in Wuhan, which is kind of a 2nd tier city, as far as China goes.

Thus, I was always inclined to believe that it was a hell of a lot worse than reported, because they took such drastic actions in the hope of keeping the rest of the country healthy (more money for the non-peasants) and their economy on track while attempting a PR move to keep foreign buyers on the hook.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> No offense but I'll take the word of doctors who are working there over yours. Maybe "war zone" is overstating it some but according many in the trenches it's pretty bad., and definitely predicted to get worse.


No worries, figured you'd have a semi snarky response.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Some interesting graphical data on "flattening the curve" during the Spanish Flu epidemic in the U.S.
> Particularly the tendency for a second wave in areas where flattening the curve was successful initially, and then restrictions were eased.
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/#close


Do you need a subscription to read that?

I remember reading about Gunnison during the Spanish flu in 4th grade. Left quite the impression on me. Later in highschool I read some of the diaries from there and others from frontier towns dealing with yellow fever. Take away, technology may have advanced but people have not. They need to work in tandem to work at all.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Some insight from a good person, friend, fellow native New Yorker, who is one emergency care MDs that i’v talked to over the last few weeks, texted me this a few days ago...

Hey everyone, 

Sorry for not giving an early update however things at the hospital have been more chaotic as the weeks go by. Originally I wrote this to my immediate family and friends and supposedly it has circulated so I just wanted to point out that these are my own views and interpretation of what I have seen in our ER over the last month. I hope this information is helpful to all those who are in need for some clarity in these desperate times. 

In my previous email some people were confused about the nebulizer / inhaler comment . I originally said nebulizers or inhalers were not effective and more importantly it aerosolizes the virus or suspends it in the air making it easier to spread. So just be careful around your loved ones if you do have asthma and need the nebulizer or pump. 

Now that I have seen hundreds maybe a thousand patients with COVID I wanted to note a few observations. 

First I have noticed there are probably 4 different strands that are going around .
1. Asymptomatic 
2. Mild symptoms 
3. Moderate symptoms 
4 . Severe symptoms 

We continue to intubate healthy individuals with no past medical history this number is a small amount of patients in my previous post i put it at 1/3000 it is probably now around 1/5000. Our ICU is currently filled with COVID patients who are again mostly elderly patients and are remaining on vents for a prolonged period of time. The majority of the patients who have been intubated have not been able to come off the vent over this tumultuous 4 week span. The mortality rate in the icu is extremely high in these cases . 

I have now seen multiple patients with ansomia ( loss of smell ) in multiple patients. If you have this its actually a less virulent variant from what I have seen. The handful of cases I have seen presented with minimal symptoms. 

Its interesting to note how the virus is changing from week to week. In the first week I was noticing most people were presenting with a sore throat. It has changed in week 2 to cough then week 3 to headache and week 4 to body aches. Overall it is presenting with multiple different symptoms which is why it is very difficult to screen for these patients. Currently multiple patients are complaining of fever especially at night time

In my previous emails I was concerned about a worsening SOB(shortness of breath) from day 4 - 10. It seems this is standing true through seeing close to a thousand COVID patients. SOB is starting around day 4 and is worsening and sometimes turning into a ARDS(acute respiratory distress) like picture around day 10. I hypothesized in previous emails that this was probably due to a delayed immune mediated response which again is probably true. Some of my colleagues are calling this " cytokine storm." For the leyman its like an allergic reaction for example if you go hiking and you brush up upon some poison ivy. You don't notice the reaction as it happens. After a few hours you might have some itching. Then after a few more hours you have some redness or erythema. However when you wake up the next day you notice that your entire leg is swollen. Imagine that but happening in your lungs. In essence your white blood cells release cytokines / histamines which causes an inflammatory response. In a way its fascinating but also terrifying because some people are reacting more vigorously than others. I have read about this possibly be related to (Ace 2 markers on the lungs ) which maybe why the Spanish population is being more affected but again in white plains there is a large Spanish population. 

This goes onto my next point of ibuprofen causing worse outcomes. Over the month I have seen multiple young patients taking ibuprofen ( advil ) 400 - 600 mg around the clock and they have presented with no worse symptoms . My own perspective is that its fine to take advil. I also read a few other studies saying the same thing. 

Alot of people have also asked me if Azithromycin and Chloroquine are effective. I have seen multiple patients PMD's ( primary medical doctors) prescribe them and people are still presenting to the hospital with worsening symptoms. In my own opinion these have not been that effective but their are multiple studies still coming out.

The most important thing that I wanted to stress is how quickly this is spreading. I continue to be a per diem worker for the Hartford healthcare system. Last week they had ZERO covid patients. And today they are getting swamped. It should be noted that every day that goes by more and more people are being affected hence the importance of the quarantine! My unit that I am stationed in which was originally 16 chairs has increased and every day we are seeing more and more sick 20-50 year old patients. 

Overall I wanted to thank the amount of support from the community. Restaurants and Deli's have been providing us with free food and drinks which have been most helpful. Geez even Bill and Hillary Clinton dropped off some pizza last Thursday ! I included a picture from some food that was dropped off 
null



I would like to recognize my bosses' at White Plains ER Dr Torres and Dr Straff. 4 weeks ago when I was pondering my vacation to florida they had the foresight to see the storm that was approaching. They again foreshadowed the upcoming events and spent money out of their own pocket to provide PPE ( personal protective equipment) to ensure the safety of their employees. I understand that White plains hospital is located in one of the most affluent neighborhoods in the country however without this early influx of PPE we would be struggling a lot like our fellow hospitals in the immediate area. My bosses are 10 years my elder and have been in ER medicine for close to 20 years. If there is something everyone knows... you cannot teach experience and for that myself and our team are most grateful. 

In summary every week that goes by more and more people are getting sick. I have upgraded my concern from mild-moderate to moderate - strong. This is due to just the sheer amount of people that are coming down with the virus. The one point that I wanted to make was that the virus is lingering for 2-3 weeks which makes it very frustrating for both patients and physicians. Currently our hospital is holding on but quickly filling up.

Thank you aunt Kate for your daily prayers. For my older sister Mish who has always been like a second mother. Stop worrying your little brother is good. I have been neck deep in this for a month now. Our team is bending but for sure as $h*t not breaking. 

I was born in queens and raised on Long Island. New Yorkers have lived through 9/11. We have endured through superstorm sandy. We are now faced with something that has affected over 40,000 NYC residents and close to 1000 deaths in our state. It is beyond my comprehension how people are not isolating themselves from others. How many more people need to die. We have never encountered a virus like this. It does not discriminate it shows no mercy. My prayers go out to the 27 year old law student who passed, I pray for 2 of my fathers friends who are intubated in the icu , I pray for my best friends cousin who lost his sense of smell, I pray for New York and the USA. 

United we need to sit at home or divided we fall. 

Manny Xxxx MD




Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

My brother lives in Brisbane, and several days ago they instituted a close down of inter state travel. That means Police with checks on the crossing points to ensure anyone wanting to cross has an approved essential reason for doing so. That is what we need here. A 'stay at home' order needs to be exactly that: you stay at home except for essential and approved sorties. That does not include traveling out of state, or even out of your immediate area. It also means you do not get on a plane except for essential travel. Anything less is to continue to promote the spread of this. If people baulk at this because they feel it infringes on their essential rights, tough, those rights ain't worth jack **** if you're dead, and you certainly do not have a right to endanger others by your stupidity.
All those governors who are refusing to shut their states down are prolonging the agony for everyone, and are essentially killing people that do not need to be dead just yet.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> No worries, figured you'd have a semi snarky response.


Did not mean that to be snarky in the least, sorry if it came off that way.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Did not mean that to be snarky in the least, sorry if it came off that way.


All good.
Didn't mean to come off as if it's not bad and getting worse. It is. trenches not


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Do you need a subscription to read that?
> 
> I remember reading about Gunnison during the Spanish flu in 4th grade. Left quite the impression on me. Later in highschool I read some of the diaries from there and others from frontier towns dealing with yellow fever. Take away, technology may have advanced but people have not. They need to work in tandem to work at all.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


No, but I did have to give them my email address.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Some insight from a good person, friend, fellow native New Yorker, who is one emergency care MDs that i'v talked to over the last few weeks, texted me this a few days ago...
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> ...


Good info!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


I still get Operations updates from Delta. They are REALLY cutting back and I'm sure more carriers will drop flights as time goes by.
As they mention, cargo flights - thank goodness - aren't affected as badly. It's logistics that will keep us going.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

joshtee said:


> The 40x number is kind of hard to believe, but they seem to be doing damage control with their numbers. It's too bad, because it's hard for the rest of the world to predict their own peak will be without accurate data from China.


Each country is different because looking at Italy, they had the highest percentage of old people per capita, with underlying health issues. China obviously lied about their #'s thats a given but by how much, no one outside China will ever know. Its interesting that they sent millions of defective respirator masks to other countries, that is very telling, how sneaky they truly are. NYC is condensed, probably a lot of rule breakers making it the epicenter for USA. It will be a shame to see what happens in the 3rd worlds, Pakistan, India, South America.

Another problem is there are no real, true accurate numbers because testing is not rolled out in full.

Russia will be another country to skew their true numbers.

The problem with retreating to remote areas within your own country/state/province is resources are being pulled from everywhere to help the big metropolitan cities. NY pulled 100's if not a 1000 ambulances and crew from out of state. Imagine getting the virus in hicksville with single digit ventilators. Luckily some geographical areas have heli's to transport, but smaller states/prov dont have that.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Someone said they didn't know of anyone who thought the media was underplaying this. 

I do.

This isn't over by a longshot. Everyone has Easter, or May 1, or Memorial Day as the period when things will get better in the US. 

All of those days are possible, as long as you are thinking 2021, not 2020.

Here is how this is going to play out.

The political pressure to declare that people can go back to work will be enormous. The Orangutan in Chief will fly a "Mission Accomplished" banner at some point (sound familiar?), probably around Memorial Day, and *some* states and cities will go back to work. This will be followed within a few weeks by the realization that this is not going to be over until at least 60-70% of people have had the virus, and we will see a second wave even worse than the first, but at that point we will have thrown in the towel, and you will be free to go wherever you want. Unfortunately, the economy will remain in the toilet until a least a year from now. People will follow their instincts and remain voluntarily locked down, not spending money (if they have any), until they have had the virus or at least suspect that they have had it. Because we are doing only a small fraction of the testing we should, there may ultimately be "only" 10 million or so confirmed to have had the virus, but at least 150,000 confirmed deaths will occur over the next 12 months. This will not be over until there is a vaccine, and that is at least 18 months from availability to the general population. Billionaires, celebrities, politicians and pro athletes will get the vaccine first, of course. 

The wild card in all of this is what happens with the US elections. I am going to predict chaos. This is going to get weird, and it is going to get ugly. All of you "Constitutionalists" out there are going to have your heads spinning as the handwriting says that the conservatives have screwed themselves with their inept response to the virus, and they try desperately to postpone the election. October is going to be epic. 

Meanwhile, I believe it is *extremely* possible that a third party candidate uses the chaos to mount a very serious run at the Presidency, since it looks like the mainstream choices are going to be between a failed leader who is an historically epic sociopath and an elderly doofus who may very well have early-stage dementia. A charismatic leader with a record of straight talk could very well cause enough people to say no to the ridiculously bad candidates held out by both parties. If this person appears, and it looks like they may actually have a shot, then *both* parties will spin the dials to postpone the election, Constitution be damned. We may be looking at an early May 2021 election. 

So go on and call me dumb, but remember I am the one who was the OP of the "Coronavirus" post from early this month, and almost no one believed what I wrote there. Go back and read that, if anything, I understated what has happened, yet 95% of people thought I was writing an alarmist fantasy.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

rockerc said:


> , and you certainly do not have a right to endanger others by your stupidity.


ahhh...see...you are wrong here, cause...'Murica.


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> Someone said they didn't know of anyone who thought the media was underplaying this.
> 
> I do.
> 
> ...


LOL, reminds me of a story I heard, something about a guy gets hit in the head with an apple and runs around telling everybody "the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

I'm not taking things lightly nor am i buying into the hysteria. I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but the Bill Gates-Event 201 is a quite interesting read. 6 weeks after the event a pandemic starts in China...eerily coincidental if you believe in that.

Although not predicted but did preparedness studies with the private sector on "what if" scenarios. The upper 1% control everything including mass media and they're just reassuring that fact.

Quite the F*%#ed up social experiment to get a point across!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> I'm not taking things lightly nor am i buying into the hysteria. I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but the Bill Gates-Event 201 is a quite interesting read. 6 weeks after the event a pandemic starts in China...eerily coincidental if you believe in that.


You are making the mistake of equating wealth with genius.

Couple of Sharp points....

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

"The simplest explanation is the best explanation."


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Billy predicted a pandemic of biological concern, 8 years ago in a Ted Talk.

With his billion$ of charity payments, and sorrounded by smart people with countless PHDs no wonder.

Wuhan had a biological facility there, virus started there in China.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> You are making the mistake of equating wealth with genius.
> 
> Couple of Sharp points....
> 
> ...


Personally, I try never to mistake a facility with quotations for wisdom. Still, nice to know you're not trying to be malicious.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Someone said they didn't know of anyone who thought the media was underplaying this.
> 
> I do.
> 
> ...


1.) Check your political bias at the door. You might not agree with the President but calling him names is not helpful.
2.) Sociopath does not mean what you think it does.
3.) While the virus may impact the election, the election will not impact how the virus is attacked so it it not a wild card.
4.) So far the public is generally favorable as to the handling of the government's efforts and that is likely to hold as long as the US's efforts continue to be in line with the rest of the world.
5.) More testing will do little to curb the virus. What testing more low symptomatic or asymptomatic patients will do is lower the mortality rate by increasing the overall denominator. The numerator is easy to calculate. A dead person is a dead person.
6.) What you said about numbers of dead and infected are nothing new. Stanford epidemiologists think the number infected, as of last week, could be at 50%.
7.) The election will go on.
8.) A 3rd party candidate will do to the Dems what Ross Perot did to GHWB.
9.) Long live the Constitution.

We can, and will get through this.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> So go on and call me dumb, but remember I am the one who was the OP of the "Coronavirus" post from early this month, and almost no one believed what I wrote there. Go back and read that, if anything, I understated what has happened, yet 95% of people thought I was writing an alarmist fantasy.


Yeah most dont travel to China nor that side of the world, nor read the articles from there. Its good that some did/do, or found it online then dug deeper. I would have glazed over it myself. I can't remember when it really hit the news in North America. Be good to know though.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

veloborealis said:


> Personally, I try never to mistake a facility with quotations for wisdom. Still, nice to know you're not trying to be malicious.


And ever true to form in your responses to me, your posts are directed as personal insult rather than refuting the post.

Personally I try to consider the value of the words before the conformity of the person making them to my personal bias.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> 5.) More testing will do little to curb the virus. What testing more low symptomatic or asymptomatic patients will do is lower the mortality rate by increasing the overall denominator. The numerator is easy to calculate. A dead person is a dead person.


Totally and completely wrong. Testing is everything and the more we can do -- both the PCR and ELISA versions -- provide the only opportunity to curb the spread and help people -- at least until there's an effective treatment and a vaccine. It's not just data collection, it's the only way to mitigate spread. And the bungle at the national level -- mostly by the White House -- will be reported over and over. Maybe the documented lies of the "President" will matter this time because they will have caused many unnecessary deaths. That's not my political bias but the truth.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> And ever true to form in your responses to me, your posts are directed as personal insult rather than refuting the post.
> 
> Personally I try to consider the value of the words before the conformity of the person making them to my personal bias.


LMAO. Nothing to refute. You made a couple of oblique, pontifical comments scarcely related to the post you were commenting on. In response, I made a joke.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Ptor said:


> Totally and completely wrong. Testing is everything and the more we can do -- both the PCR and ELISA versions -- provide the only opportunity to curb the spread and help people -- at least until there's an effective treatment and a vaccine. It's not just data collection, it's the only way to mitigate spread. And the bungle at the national level -- mostly by the White House -- will be reported over and over. Maybe the documented lies of the "President" will matter this time because they will have caused many unnecessary deaths. That's not my political bias but the truth.


 Patently false.
Your post does not hold up to critical thought.
If as you say, testing were "the only way to mitigate spread", washing hands would not be the number one defense against spreading the virus, followed by avoiding close contact with others as much as possible. No doubt many who have, and will have reduced the spread will never come in contact with a test kit.

Though your political signaling will no doubt attract the usual TDS adherents who scoff at hand washing and avoiding interstate travel.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

veloborealis said:


> LMAO. Nothing to refute. You made a couple of oblique, pontifical comments scarcely related to the post you were commenting on. In response, I made a joke.


Uh no, I referenced two widely known principles in refutation of an absurd conspiracy theory.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Patently false.
> Your post does not hold up to critical thought.
> If as you say, testing were "the only way to mitigate spread", washing hands would not be the number one defense against spreading the virus, followed by avoiding close contact with others as much as possible. No doubt many who have, and will have reduced the spread will never come in contact with a test kit.
> 
> Though your political signaling will no doubt attract the usual TDS adherents who scoff at hand washing and avoiding interstate travel.


True to form. Back to acting as an apologist for the Trump Party. That's at least the third time you've stated that anyone who takes issue with the President's serial mis-truths scoffs at handwashing as a first line of defense. From "we have this totally under control" to keeping deaths down to 100-200,000 would be a "really good job." Our "war-time president is at war with the truth.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> And ever true to form in your responses to me, your posts are directed as personal insult rather than refuting the post.
> 
> Personally I try to consider the value of the words before the conformity of the person making them to my personal bias.


Lol. You can't really make that claim when your posts to others also includes insults directed at ops, while completely ignoring posts 
Have noticed a trend in your posts towards trying to mimic a 20th century author or something. Exudes as a blend of John Steinbeck with Hee Haw


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> _Though your political signaling will no doubt attract the usual TDS adherents who scoff at hand washing and avoiding interstate travel._


Right on cue.
You give too much weight to your assumptions Meat



> You can't really make that claim when your posts to others also includes insults directed at ops, while completely ignoring posts


That's fallacy.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Can we get back to good info in this thread? It'd be nice if people could leave politics aside, just for a little bit. There is good info in this thread. Thanks to the people contributing to good info. It keeps getting muddied up by pointless political bickering. Some posts start out w/ good info then the person quickly shifts it into cheap political jabs and other divisive talking points. It gets old.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> That's fallacy.


Says the sultan of sophistry.

I just got neg-repped by the BaldBlur as the one who interjected politics into this thread, when 'ol Oz has been hard at work throughout defending, one at a time, every blustery utterance coming out of the oval office. Even though his own team repeatedly has to delicately and diplomatically correct their boss without offending him so as not to scare the populace. If I cared about rep I would be hurt. I was offended though by Oz suggesting I don't believe in washing my hands.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

joshtee said:


> Damn dude, your displaying classic stalker behavior here. Give riding this guys jock a break. Every time he posts something, you pop up, seconds later, like a crazed ex-lover.
> 
> Can we get back to good info in this thread? It'd be nice if people could leave politics aside, just for a little bit. There is good info in this thread. Thanks to the people contributing to good info. It keeps getting muddied up by pointless political bickering. Some posts start out w/ good info then the person quickly shifts it into cheap political jabs and other divisive talking points. It gets old.


Sorry I ruined it for you. I try not to push, only push back. Could live without your personal attack on me, as if you're picking sides, and can def live without your visuals.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This is an interesting review of molecular biology.






It's kind of timely - I just saw a report that Remdesivir is in clinical trials in Michigan and the way in which it functions is pretty cool.

I've posted a bunch of MedCram videos that I'm too lazy to go back to confirm what I'm about to say, so I may be off a bit, but as I recall, Remdesivir was originally design for use against Ebola, but failed the clinical trials.

I think the way it works is as an Adenine "imposter" molecule, so to speak. When the bat-fever virus replicates, the presence of the Remdesivir molecule allows it to be used instead of Adenine in the RNA (bat-fever is an RNA virus) and the result is a "bad copy" of the virus is made, or the process of reproduction is interrupted.

It's not the first drug that presents analog molecules that mess up metabolism in microorganisms. Penicillin and 1st gen Sulfa drugs do as well.

Anyway, that's the idea, I think. Like Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin and several HIV drugs, this may - or may not - not pan out, but trials have been in process in China as well.

I'm not aware of any case series on Remdesivir.

Fingers crossed!

BTW, if you're looking for something to watch today, it's the 100th anniversary of the birth of Toshiro Mifune.

TCM is showing his movies all day.

And remember:


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> The best scientific advice in this deadly pandemic is still to wash your hands.


Washing your hands is only one component, the scientific advice I've gathered says social distancing and wearing a mask are just as important.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Naaaaah.

This is Much Better.......


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Scary stuff...we will surpass Italy, bigly

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections

I also think complacency and Covid burn out are becoming real factors in the outcome. I just read an interview with the CDC director in which it appears to me he did a lot of deflecting, but does outline just how contagious this is.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ths-to-come-this-virus-is-going-to-be-with-us

From what I'm reading breathing this in is the pathway to transmission.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ponytails>man buns?

Still learning.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ponytails>man buns?
> 
> Still learning.


I think he is saying man buns are ok if you are a samurai and ponytails ok if you are a sexist, racists, anti-jew, Australian playing an american patriot in a fictional tale of the revolutionary war Directed by the man that brought us of 2012 mayan calendar disaster porn flick, the Day after Tomorrow the climate change disaster porn flick, and Independence day, the aliens invade earth disaster porn flick.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> I think he is saying man buns are ok if you are a samurai and ponytails ok if you are a sexist, racists, anti-jew, Australian playing an american patriot in a fictional tale of the revolutionary war Directed by the man that brought us of 2012 mayan calendar disaster porn flick, the Day after Tomorrow the climate change disaster porn flick, and Independence day, the aliens invade earth disaster porn flick.


Triggered much?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rockcrusher said:


> I think he is saying man buns are ok if you are a samurai and ponytails ok if you are a sexist, racists, anti-jew, Australian playing an american patriot in a fictional tale of the revolutionary war Directed by the man that brought us of 2012 mayan calendar disaster porn flick, the Day after Tomorrow the climate change disaster porn flick, and Independence day, the aliens invade earth disaster porn flick.


Ah, that makes sense. Guess I stick with neither.

Still learning...


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> Triggered much?


wow talk about triggered. Tell me where *my opinion* about Mel Gibson and Rolland Emmerich is wrong?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ah, that makes sense. Guess I stick with neither.
> 
> Still learning...


It is best to appreciate the hair you have in my opinion. A man bun won't work under a helmet and a pony tail requires you have to have a pony tail port in your helmet. My daughter has a long hair and it is a pain on mountain bike rides, especially windy ones. She ends up with hair in her face. Not that there is anything wrong with long hair. Or man buns.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Scary stuff...we will surpass Italy, bigly
> 
> https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
> 
> ...


It IS scary. 
It's kind of interesting that the U.K. and Italy both have a little over 65 million people.
IDK about Italy, but last I saw, the U.K. had 8000 ventilators, while the U.S., with 5 times the population has over 200,000 and Ford/GM among others, are making more.

My cousin is a doctor in Mass and just got his bat-fever test back - negative. I think he was disappointed. He had mild symptoms and was hoping he had it, would get over it, be immune and press on. Three of my daughter's co-workers at the hospital where she's a nurse are positive with mild symptoms, so this is hitting pretty close to home.

There was a National Geographic piece about the Spanish (Kansas) flu that illustrated your fear of complacency.....or as we used to say in aviation "complacency kills, but we don't care about that".


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You do realize the bun guy and the ponytail guy are actors, right?
Not a Samurai.
Not a Patriot.
Simply representative fictional imagery....
I thought we were joking about long hair social distancing......

Yep, I’d say Triggered is about right.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> You do realize the bun guy and the ponytail guy are actors, right?
> Not a Samurai.
> Not a Patriot.
> Simply representative fictional imagery....
> ...


Oh we got DJTjr in the house.

My favorite word is triggered, it goes well with a side of sheeple.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> Oh we got DJTjr in the house.
> 
> My favorite word is triggered, it goes well with a side of sheeple.


Ahh yes, name calling.

Still learning....


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> It IS scary.
> It's kind of interesting that the U.K. and Italy both have a little over 65 million people.
> IDK about Italy, but last I saw, the U.K. had 8000 ventilators, while the U.S., with 5 times the population has over 200,000 and Ford/GM among others, are making more.
> 
> ...


I think the immune thing is something that is not proven. I was going on about this the other day and someone pointed me to some article that stated that immunity is not guaranteed, some viruses give you immunity like chicken pox once you have them and some don't like the flu. The vaccines we take for flu gives our immune system a heads up so it can fight the flu faster when it is in our system but it isn't a stopper as the virus mutates over time. They are saying that this is potentially a slow mutating virus so it might provide some immunity once you have it but more than likely a person could see multiple attacks by the virus and having had it previously could make you more susceptible to the worse symptoms the next round due to lung damage.

I was really hoping I understood viruses but it seemed I did not. I honestly can't imagine any greater heroes than those working on the front lines of COVID response, they are willingly putting themselves and their immediate family in danger every day to help those that need it. Kudos to your cousin and your daughter.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> Ahh yes, name calling.
> 
> Still learning....


I figured you would appreciate being compared to a Trump. I mean his book was literally called Triggered and you bandy that word about based on *my opinion* of a movie director and a publicly antisemitic and racist actor.

I would say the only thing triggering me is that Rolland Emmerich still gets to make movies, and Mel Gibson still gets acting roles. He peaked in Galipolli, a much better war movie, and instilled himself as an icon with Road Warrior but since then he has gaffed and hated his way to awful roles in bad movies. Rolland Emmerich is a director with a singular vision, disaster. Look at his filmography, it is all mostly disaster porn, they threw him a war movie, it was OK, supposed to be based in reality but like a lot of historical movies suffered from fiction which ruined its appeal to historical buffs and fictional buffs alike. Obviously after that movie the studios were ready to put him back in what he was good at. Fictional end of world movies.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> I think the immune thing is something that is not proven. I was going on about this the other day and someone pointed me to some article that stated that immunity is not guaranteed, some viruses give you immunity like chicken pox once you have them and some don't like the flu. The vaccines we take for flu gives our immune system a heads up so it can fight the flu faster when it is in our system but it isn't a stopper as the virus mutates over time. They are saying that this is potentially a slow mutating virus so it might provide some immunity once you have it but more than likely a person could see multiple attacks by the virus and having had it previously could make you more susceptible to the worse symptoms the next round due to lung damage.
> 
> I was really hoping I understood viruses but it seemed I did not. I honestly can't imagine any greater heroes than those working on the front lines of COVID response, they are willingly putting themselves and their immediate family in danger every day to help those that need it. Kudos to your cousin and your daughter.


Thanks.
There's certainly a lot that is not proven yet.
However, I think that though long term immunity is not guaranteed, short term pretty much is. The reason we get the flu one year and can get it the next as well is because it is not the same flu. Flu mutates quite rapidly and to enough of a degree that the surface antigens are different enough that antibodies no longer bind to the sites. The vaccine provides immunity because that particular iteration of that flu results in immunity. Inoculations will protect you in the short term, but in most cases years down the road you will need a booster.

It is beginning to appear that in the situations where someone tests positive for bat-fever, then negative, and then positive again is because they got a false negative in the middle rather than reacquiring the virus.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> Thanks.
> There's certainly a lot that is not proven yet.
> However, I think that though long term immunity is not guaranteed, short term pretty much is. The reason we get the flu one year and can get it the next as well is because it is not the same flu. Flu mutates quite rapidly and to enough of a degree that the surface antigens are different enough that antibodies no longer bind to the sites. The vaccine provides immunity because that particular iteration of that flu results in immunity. Inoculations will protect you in the short term, but in most cases years down the road you will need a booster.
> 
> It is beginning to appear that in the situations where someone tests positive for bat-fever, then negative, and then positive again is because they got a false negative in the middle rather than reacquiring the virus.


Yeah virology is terrifying. I hope it does give some immunity, enough for us to have enough time for vaccine to be made, tested, and implemented globally. However I feel that like the flu this will be with us for the near future, if it mutates like the flu we will never be able to eradicate it completely. SARS and MERS were able to be pretty much successfully controlled and perhaps eliminated but this corona virus type is much more virulent and certainly much more transmissible. I was just reading that perhaps as many as 20% of people have had it without symptoms and have just passed it along. The CDC is considering asking that everyone wear masks when going out to prevent the spread when asymptomatic. Scary virus to say the least.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Triggered? You bet, by 'ol Oz posing as "Marcus Aurelius" in service of a demagogue. The irony of that galls. 

Apologies for my part in turning this thread toward the political. There's been a lot of good information in this thread thanks to Nurse Ben, MSUAlum, TheMeat and a few others.

Time for me to practice a little stoicism. 

“The only thing that isn’t worthless: to live this life out truthfully and rightly. And be patient with those who don’t.” - MA

I'm not there yet, but I'll try.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> Yeah virology is terrifying. I hope it does give some immunity, enough for us to have enough time for vaccine to be made, tested, and implemented globally. However I feel that like the flu this will be with us for the near future, if it mutates like the flu we will never be able to eradicate it completely. SARS and MERS were able to be pretty much successfully controlled and perhaps eliminated but this corona virus type is much more virulent and certainly much more transmissible. I was just reading that perhaps as many as 20% of people have had it without symptoms and have just passed it along. The CDC is considering asking that everyone wear masks when going out to prevent the spread when asymptomatic. Scary virus to say the least.


Yeah, I expect this one will become endemic. There are already 4 variants of the Coronavirus that are....soon to be 5, I expect!
It's like War of the Worlds, but we're fresh out of Martians!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> This is an interesting review of molecular biology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my best Austrian accent, Ahh, very interesting 
Amazing how crafty some are. Glad some have such an understanding. As a student of life without much knowledge about things like that what I find interesting is the possible reactions on other things over time. As reactionary decisions usually toss some level of precaution to the wayside. Plastic bags, crazy glue, fossil fuel economy, talk shows, etc. 
May look like a good idea at the time, even innocent, then ...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rockcrusher said:


> The CDC is considering asking that everyone wear masks when going out to prevent the spread when asymptomatic.


It seems like the consensus here (US) is that masks are mostly useful for stopping infected people from spreading the virus but many experts in the field believe that masks are equally effective in preventing infection and that we (along with many other countries) are foolish not to use them more.

I found this interview interesting and educational


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> I figured you would appreciate being compared to a Trump. I mean his book was literally called Triggered and you bandy that word about based on *my opinion* of a movie director and a publicly antisemitic and racist actor.
> 
> I would say the only thing triggering me is that Rolland Emmerich still gets to make movies, and Mel Gibson still gets acting roles. He peaked in Galipolli, a much better war movie, and instilled himself as an icon with Road Warrior but since then he has gaffed and hated his way to awful roles in bad movies. Rolland Emmerich is a director with a singular vision, disaster. Look at his filmography, it is all mostly disaster porn, they threw him a war movie, it was OK, supposed to be based in reality but like a lot of historical movies suffered from fiction which ruined its appeal to historical buffs and fictional buffs alike. Obviously after that movie the studios were ready to put him back in what he was good at. Fictional end of world movies.


This really is a big deal to you isn't it.

If I hurt your feelings that much over posting a picture of an actor's ponytail, in response to a picture of an actor's bun, well you have my sympathy....

Keep Safe.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

veloborealis said:


> Triggered? You bet, by 'ol Oz posing as "Marcus Aurelius" in service of a demagogue. The irony of that galls.
> 
> Time for me to practice a little stoicism.
> 
> ...


I find the irony amusing.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> It seems like the consensus here (US) is that masks are mostly useful for stopping infected people from spreading the virus but many experts in the field believe that masks are equally effective in preventing infection and that we (along with many other countries) are foolish not to use them more.
> 
> I found this interview interesting and educational


Yeah, I think the sticking point now is availability of masks. Looks like a guy in NYC just got arrested for hoarding 80,000 masks and other PPE. Once the front line providers are guaranteed a supply, I don't see how this would be a bad idea.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah, I think the sticking point now is availability of masks. Looks like a guy in NYC just got arrested for hoarding 80,000 masks and other PPE. Once the front line providers are guaranteed a supply, I don't see how this would be a bad idea.


Agree, but instead of WHO saying that they don't really help, which is a lie, I would think a better idea would be to step up production. Seems like that would be an obtainable goal.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I find the irony amusing.


Watching someone look down their nose at people is less then enjoyable to me. But when that same someone can't see past their own nose, that's amusing. Thanks


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Agree, but instead of WHO saying that they don't really help, which is a lie, I would think a better idea would be to step up production. Seems like that would be an obtainable goal.


Agreed. I don't know the exact position WHO had, but I think they MAY have been speaking in terms of health care providers and the guidance on what kind of masks worked to prevent them from getting sick.

There are several manufacturers, Jockey (I shudder to imagine their design!) MyPillow (I think they're ramping up to 50,000 a week or so just by themselves) - I'm waiting for Victoria's Secret to step up to the plate - who are producing a whole bunch of PPE gear. 
Even ventilator production is ramping up to the point where we soon may be able to supply other countries as well.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Agree, but instead of WHO saying that they don't really help, which is a lie, I would think a better idea would be to step up production. Seems like that would be an obtainable goal.


Crazy. You watch one high ranking official say wear them. Then 5 minutes later you hear another say don't wear. Can understand if you're in a position of needing more you advise not everyone needs em. From where I sit they can help, why not. Providing enough masks should not be a problem. SMH


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> This really is a big deal to you isn't it.
> 
> If I hurt your feelings that much over posting a picture of an actor's ponytail, in response to a picture of an actor's bun, well you have my sympathy....
> 
> Keep Safe.


uh, you are the one that responded to my post with the triggered comment. I don't think a person in America realizes that triggered is the just right wing butt hurt response to anything they doesn't feel like acknowledging as an valid opinion. It is sort of the "nah nah can't hear" of you of political discourse. I just don't care for mel gibson and wanted to make fun of him. You took it as a personal affront to your belief system or something and declared me as a triggered person. I guess you were correct in triggering me with Mel Gibson however. He is just an awful person.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Mel Gibson is a good example of someone who had life by the balls and was so stupid and short sided they blew themselves up


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Mel Gibson is a good example of someone who had life by the balls and was so stupid and short sided they blew up themselves


Short sighted.....


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> "complacency kills, but we don't care about that".


Lol, stealing this.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Short sighted.....


"If you are contemplating walking around in public with a face mask, you're not thinking straight."

Hindsight is 20/20


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> "If you are contemplating walking around in public with a face mask, you're not thinking straight."
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20


Context. 
That was straight from the mouth of the scientists at the time that was posted, during a critical point of shortage when people on the front lines and the high risk desperately needed the masks.

So more like 20/40 hind sided in this particular case for you.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Context.
> That was straight from the mouth of the scientists at the time that was posted, during a critical point of shortage when people on the front lines and the high risk desperately needed the masks.
> 
> So more like 20/40 hind sided in this particular case for you.....


Your words. If you took them words out of someone else's mouth in an attempt to look smart, that's a separate issue that sheeple should examine


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Your words. If you took them words out of someone else's mouth in an attempt to look smart, that's a separate issue that sheeple should examine


Pass


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Context.
> That was straight from the mouth of the scientists at the time that was posted, during a critical point of shortage when people on the front lines and the high risk desperately needed the masks.
> 
> So more like 20/40 hind sided in this particular case for you.....


Seems like if that was what you meant you would have mentioned that to provide proper context and clarity.

I don't think scientists used those words either.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Seems like if that was what you meant you would have mentioned that to provide proper context and clarity.
> 
> I don't think scientists used those words either.


Scientists are saying it. Less and less as times go on, and if there were enough masks to go around even less. A few days ago at the supermarket some guy tried to tell my wife was being selfish and didn't need one, only first responders did. Sheeple will be sheeple


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Scientists are saying it. Less and less as times go on, and if there were enough masks to go around even less.


They were saying "you're not thinking straight"?

I haven't heard any say that but I have heard some say they aren't necessary, or even helpful which was (is?) WHO's official stance.

Regardless I doubt that was what oz was trying to convey.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Yep, I don't get the CDC's advice of not needing a mask unless you are sick. They are talking about a virus that's symptoms do not show for several days or may not possibly show at all. So following their advice, people who have the virus but don't realize it are out walking around others and spreading the virus. How do they not realize this is bad advice? 

And the whole "may give people a false sense of security" is just one person's opinion that then goes out widespread as fact. Another opinion would be "if people see a lot of others are wearing masks, they will recognize the seriousness of this whole thing".

Now I do get the concern of healthcare workers having masks and concerns about the public hoarding. But I suspect a very large percentage of the masks were purchased and shipped to China.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> They were saying "you're not thinking straight"?
> 
> I haven't heard any say that but I have heard some say they aren't necessary, or even helpful which was (is?) WHO's official stance.
> 
> Regardless I doubt that was what oz was trying to convey.


Agreed on oz. 
Not trying to be a contrarian for kicks but to keep things relevant the surgeon general, who's not easy to miss, he's the only black guy on the podium with the prez, is still advising not to wear. This morning Congress sent him a letter asking that the general reassess this position.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Yep, I don't get the CDC's advice of not needing a mask unless you are sick. They are talking about a virus that's symptoms do not show for several days or may not possibly show at all. So following their advice, people who have the virus but don't realize it are out walking around others and spreading the virus. How do they not realize this is bad advice?
> 
> And the whole "may give people a false sense of security" is just one person's opinion that then goes out widespread as fact. Another opinion would be "if people see a lot of others are wearing masks, they will recognize the seriousness of this whole thing".
> 
> Now I do get the concern of healthcare workers having masks and concerns about the public hoarding. But I suspect a very large percentage of the masks were purchased and shipped to China.


Broad minded original thinking makes way.
About 3 weeks ago us sent China 17.5 tons ppe. Aside from that everything comes from, not to, China. No?
Feel a reset coming on


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Agreed on oz.
> Not trying to be a contrarian for kicks but to keep things relevant the surgeon general, who's not easy to miss, he's the only black guy on the podium with the prez, is still advising not to wear. This morning Congress sent him a letter asking that the general reassess this position.


I understand and agree that if the availability of masks is limited then hospital staff should get them first but I don't agree that lying to the public to accomplish that is the right thing to do. People should have accurate information available to them.

I do think that the shortage could have been avoided and that encouraging people to use them and possibly even distributing them for free could have saved lives, as well as being financially advantageous in the long run for the US.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I understand and agree that if the availability of masks is limited then hospital staff should get them first but I don't agree that lying to the public to accomplish that is the right thing to do. People should have accurate information available to them.
> 
> I do think that the shortage could have been avoided and that encouraging people to use them and possibly even distributing them for free could have saved lives, as well as being financially advantageous in the long run for the US.


Well good. Been working on finding something we could agree on for a while


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Some of the stuff I get to witness here makes me laugh 'til I cry.






Great big wink....


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Some of the stuff I get to witness here makes me laugh 'til I cry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I just pissed myself!


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> People should have accurate information available to them.
> 
> I do think that the shortage could have been avoided and that encouraging people to use them and possibly even distributing them for free could have saved lives, as well as being financially advantageous in the long run for the US.


Accurate Information - Tell that to China. Its now been confirmed that China lied to the world how many died and infected. Countries rolled out measures based on China's lies. Very telling what China did there, but nothing we did not know. Its a matter of how much did China lie to the world. Do we triple or double the #'s.

Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda
If we would have only known sooner
If we only would have done this or that
Yeah, makes sense. Human nature.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Accurate Information - Tell that to China. Its now been confirmed that China lied to the world how many died and infected.


For real? I'm shocked :eekster:


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Some of the stuff I get to witness here makes me laugh 'til I cry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concept... not everyone is intellectually dishonest. May have actually been sincere. Aww, don't be jealous.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc said:


> Well I just pissed myself!


Def funny. Everybody funny. Now you funny too


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Concept... not everyone is intellectually dishonest. May have actually been sincere. Aww, don't be jealous.


Concept.
Goes right over some people's heads......
And that's funny too.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Its a matter of how much did China lie to the world. Do we triple or double the #'s.


Ask Apple in a few months.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

OzarkFathom said:


> Ask Apple in a few months.


Gotta keep the big machine moving forward.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Head count the payroll. Should be pretty telling......


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Well that gives the admin an easy scapegoat for dropping the ball, but the truth is they dropped they ball even based on the alleged fake numbers.


----------



## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Def funny. Everybody funny. Now you funny too


outdoors ya know


----------



## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

veloborealis said:


> True to form. Back to acting as an apologist for the Trump Party. That's at least the third time you've stated that anyone who takes issue with the President's serial mis-truths scoffs at handwashing as a first line of defense. From "we have this totally under control" to keeping deaths down to 100-200,000 would be a "really good job." Our "war-time president is at war with the truth.


Haha.....I wager you didn't vote for this president, so when you don't vote for him again, who cares. As I stated many times before, nobody cares what you or anybody think about any politician. As for me, I blame the CCP. Let's all remember that when this is over and we start to spend our money, I will. Communism kills.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> Communism kills.


Your last name McCarthy? You demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge if you think any policies being proposed by anyone are in any way communism!

Communism as trialed by Soviet Russia did kill, true, but that was a totalitarian society based on fear. What is being proposed as an alternative to the right wing greedfest these days is simple human decency. That does not kill. It nurtures.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Your last name McCarthy? You demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge if you think any policies being proposed by anyone are in any way communism!
> 
> Communism as trialed by Soviet Russia did kill, true, but that was a totalitarian society based on fear. What is being proposed as an alternative to the right wing greedfest these days is simple human decency. That does not kill. It nurtures.


I read his post as an attack on the Chinese Communist regime, not social safety nets, unless I missed something.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

I read Grodyman’s post as blaming the Chinese. Which is arguable, while blaming our response to it not


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> *I read Grodyman's post as blaming the Chinese*. Which is arguable, while blaming our response to it not


Nope.
Clearly posted "CCP" and "Communist".


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Grodyman said:


> As for me, I blame the CCP. Let's all remember that when this is over and we start to spend our money, I will. Communism kills.


Seems straight forward.
I'm looking for the reference to "our response".


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Nope.
> Clearly posted "CCP" and "Communist".


Mind reading another member is not an argument I care to have. China is communist, and ccp basically pretends to regulate a relationship with China, so not exactly sure what you're saying. Guess we'll see who the better mind reader is when Grody chimes in, depending on which team he plays for and how intellectually honest he is.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Seems straight forward.
> I'm looking for the reference to "our response".


"Our response " Grody did not mention. I'm just connecting the dots


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> I'm just connecting the dots


On the other hand,
"Mind reading another member is not an argument I care to have."

Got it!


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I walk and bike in my neighborhood and there are a lot of homes with dogs. Most of the time, the dogs either look up with curiosity or walk out to check me out. In one case, the dog consistently barks furiously. In no case, are the dogs' behaviors due to anything I do. It's coming from inside of them, not from what they see or hear.

Seems an apt metaphor for many of the posts - by many of the members - in this thread!

I understand. I want to bark myself, and sometimes do. I'm trying to overcome that.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Doesn’t take long does it, LMAO.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> On the other hand,
> "Mind reading another member is not an argument I care to have."
> 
> Got it!


I said I don't care to ague about it. Would sooner have Grody respond to what he intended in his own post, free to connect his own dots. Got it now?
As I would hope have the freedom to connect my own dots that our response being poor is getting harder to defend , has now shifted to if China was honest...
The irony is how dependent we find ourselves to China. Feel a reset coming on! and in those terms I agree with Grody man saying he hopes we don't forget


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Seems an apt metaphor for many of the posts - by many of the members - in this thread!


I made a similar comment buried in this thread, tis the human condition. With nearly 8 billion barkers on the planet it truly amazes me we can accomplish anything cohesive at all.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

theMeat said:


> I said I don't care to ague about it. Would sooner have Grody respond to what he intended in his own post, free to connect his own dots. Got it now?


Chinese Communist Party (CCP)


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> Chinese Communist Party (CCP)


Oh. Since you already mentioned communist thought your ccp meant central counterparty which attempts to stabilize markets internationally, mostly Europe/China


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

walk and bike in my neighborhood and there are a lot of homes with dogs. Most of the time, the dogs either look up with curiosity or walk out to check me out. In one case, the dog consistently barks furiously. In no case, are the dogs' behaviors due to anything I do. It's coming from inside of them, not from what they see or hear.

Cool story bro. 
My dog rarely barks. My mailman comments on it all the time. She jumps in the window and wags her tail in anticipation that someone might come in.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Now and again barking dogs need a good whack across the nose......



> Oh. *Since you already mentioned communist thought your ccp meant central counterparty which attempts to stabilize markets internationally, mostly Europe/China*


Does not follow....



> Haha.....I wager you didn't vote for this president, so when you don't vote for him again, who cares. As I stated many times before, nobody cares what you or anybody think about any politician. As for me, I blame the *CCP*. Let's all remember that when this is over and we start to spend our money, I will. *Communism* kills.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Now and again barking dogs need a good whack across the nose......


That may give you satisfaction but it won't stop them from barking, repetitive training and positive reinforcement is effective.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Now and again barking dogs need a good whack across the nose......


I never hit my dog. That would be my advice


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> I never hit my dog


I never hit your dog.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I never hit your dog.


Hitting my dog humor?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Hitting my dog humor?


Nope.
Not hitting your dog humor.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)




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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanx for the pos rep oz. one good turn deserves another


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Nope.
> Not hitting your dog humor.....


Cool. Because jb got this one right


J.B. Weld said:


> That may give you satisfaction but it won't stop them from barking, repetitive training and positive reinforcement is effective.


And this one too


J.B. Weld said:


> It seems like the consensus here (US) is that masks are mostly useful for stopping infected people from spreading the virus but many experts in the field believe that masks are equally effective in preventing infection and that we (along with many other countries) are foolish not to use them more.
> 
> I found this interview interesting and educational


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> Chinese Communist Party (CCP)


Then please accept my apologies! I barked too soon!

I am actually just watching a lengthy video my daughter just sent me that has some interesting theories about all this and how the Chinese are possibly involved. Once I have watched it all and stifled my barks, I shall perhaps share it here some time.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well China is at fault for the cause, and most importantly for lying about the true #'s of infected and dead. Countries based their responses on false #'s. The "Wet" markets are a concern because isn't that how most of these diseases are spread, ebola from wild jungle meat, animal/meat markets are diverse especially in China, doubt the health department or food safety department are making the rounds of the vendors. Its their culture. It is also their culture to lie, look at China's counterfeiting biz and the governments attempt to tackle it are minimal at best.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

rockerc said:


> I am actually just watching a lengthy video my daughter just sent me that has some interesting theories about all this and how the Chinese are possibly involved. Once I have watched it all and stifled my barks, I shall perhaps share it here some time.


Post a link, I'd surely be interested.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Well China is at fault for the cause, and most importantly for lying about the true #'s of infected and dead. Countries based their responses on false #'s. The "Wet" markets are a concern because isn't that how most of these diseases are spread, ebola from wild jungle meat, animal/meat markets are diverse especially in China, doubt the health department or food safety department are making the rounds of the vendors. Its their culture. It is also their culture to lie, look at China's counterfeiting biz and the governments attempt to tackle it are minimal at best.


Do you mean that because something done in one country might affect other countries or the whole world there should be mutually determined regulations? LIke globalism :eekster:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

And I don't think the Chinese hold any patents on lying.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There is no need for special theories nor new discoveries.
Facts a few people are stealing trillionss$$
lots of honests citizens do their groceries wearing masks or scarves.
Who should be in jail?


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> Post a link, I'd surely be interested.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Here it is:


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

this video shows evidence that strongly suggests Chinese researchers accidentally released the virus in Wuhan, and then the gov tried to cover it up.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

It's Florida man...Thursday.

'Ron DeSantis quietly signed second executive order targeting local coronavirus restrictions'. I understand WHY he doesn't want to shutter churches; OK, that's fine. Just ban large gatherings, like many other states have done.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...der-targeting-local-coronavirus-restrictions/

But, Brian Kemp really takes the cake for idiocy. To avoid any political content, stop reading before the Twitter tweet screenshot.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...learned-spreads-asymptomaticallly/5113213002/


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

COVID-19 Update 13: Randomized Controlled Trial of Hydroxychloroquine (Chen et al., Wuhan, China)

This is the first randomized trial I'm aware of:


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm confused by the end. I thought a small P-value was good? It's been a while since statistics but the smaller the P-value the lower chance was in the results?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

be1 said:


> outdoors ya know


But I'm tired, I've been walkin' all day


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Burying a Robin*

A friend explains to me what 'exponential' means. Imagine, she says, that you are sitting beside an empty swimming pool. At the bottom of the pool is a single drop of water. It doubles, and doubles, and keeps doubling, and for a long time you notice nothing at all because double a tiny amount is still a tiny amount. Then the pool is half full. When it doubles again it will be full. By the time the awareness hits you it is already too late: at the next doubling you will be deep under water.

Nick Hunt


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

I keep my distance from people I pass, the length of a grave between us all, and sometimes we share nods or smiles, as when snow is falling.

Nick Hunt


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

https://dark-mountain.net/burying-a-robin/


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> But, Brian Kemp really takes the cake for idiocy. To avoid any political content, stop reading before the Twitter tweet screenshot.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...learned-spreads-asymptomaticallly/5113213002/


Yeah. For the record, I voted against him.

But as I mentioned in a previous post (not sure if in this thread or one of the others), all the recommendations of "you don't need to wear a mask unless you are sick" follows the same line of (ill-informed) reasoning that he used.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Does anyone else think its ridiculous for states to determine their own policies regarding this pandemic? What one state does affects all others. I'm all for individual rights but if there was ever a time and place for nationwide federal guidance it seems like this is it.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Does anyone else think its ridiculous for states to determine their own policies regarding this pandemic? What one state does affects all others. I'm all for individual rights but if there was ever a time and place for nationwide federal guidance it seems like this is it.


Absolutely 
This fake strategy will be talked about for many years. Have said since the first of this menagerie of prez press conferences. What was it March 12? Said he should hand this over to pentagon. Now he wants to be a 'war' prez, and his name on checks for 2 trillion dole. You don't fight a war by telling 50 states do whatever you want. Having a treasury nuchin is just as scary. That too will go down in history


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Does anyone else think its ridiculous for states to determine their own policies regarding this pandemic? What one state does affects all others. I'm all for individual rights but if there was ever a time and place for nationwide federal guidance it seems like this is it.


Wouldn't it be neat if there had been a document ratified by the states when they entered the union that gave someone else the right to create laws and policies that superseded those created by the states?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Wouldn't it be neat if there had been a document ratified by the states when they entered the union that gave someone else the right to create laws and policies that superseded those created by the states?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah federally enforce things like the Second Amendment and such.
Lock down any non critical travel to or from Washington, California, New York, and Louisiana.
So much for the governors of California, New York, and Michigan eh.

Trump shoulda put all 50 states in quarantine in January, and closed all national borders. The CDC should have worked jointly with the US military to enforce national mask requirement for every American.
The US Army and Air Force should have mobilized with ICE and Border Patrol to enforce the immigration laws.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Trump shoulda put all 50 states in quarantine in January.


In January?
In February/March he was saying virus would disappear, and you were saying...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> In January?
> In February/March he was saying virus would disappear, and you were saying...


Oh no Meat.
You have convinced me.
Considering your post, you are right.
Per you and Duke the Pentagon should enforce the Constitution, and enforce State quarantine nation wide and all immigration law.
We can get Biden to make this our new enlightened national policy.
We could have had internment camps for all Americans returning home after Jan 31. You know, kinda like FDR did with the Japanese....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yeah federally enforce things like the Second Amendment and such.
> Lock down any non critical travel to or from Washington, California, New York, and Louisiana.
> So much for the governors of California, New York, and Michigan eh.
> 
> ...


The military can't be used as law enforcement...

I'm not sure what bringing the Air Force and Army in would do; they can't legally detain American citizens getting off a boat or an aircraft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> The military can't be used as law enforcement...
> 
> I'm not sure what bringing the Air Force and Army in would do; they can't legally detain American citizens getting off a boat or an aircraft.
> .
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well then, perhaps you have come to see the absurdity of your post, my man.
Meat said turn the whole thing over to the pentagon and you suggested we have a document with which federal law ("someone else") could supersede state law.
Appears we have a meeting of the minds here, LMAO.

Lincoln did it. Remember how well that worked out?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Well then, perhaps you have come to see the absurdity of your post, my man.
> Meat said turn the whole thing over to the pentagon and you suggested we have a document with which federal law ("someone else") could supersede state law.
> Appears we have a meeting of the minds here, LMAO.


Uh, I'm talking about the coordination and distribution of nationally owned resources (Strategic National Stockpile) by the federal government to surge them to areas where they are needed most at any given time. Or to prevent excess distribution of supplies and equipment to areas where they are not needed.

To prevent stuff like this happening:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...aadda0-728d-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html

But, please feel free to put words in my mouth, again and again and again.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Uh, I'm talking about the coordination and distribution of nationally owned resources (Strategic National Stockpile) by the federal government to surge them to areas where they are needed most at any given time. Or to prevent excess distribution of supplies and equipment to areas where they are not needed.
> 
> To prevent stuff like this happening:
> 
> ...


Quote: "Wouldn't it be neat if there had been a document ratified by the states when they entered the union *that gave someone else the right to create laws and policies that superseded those created by the states*?"

Your words.

Who is this "someone else" ?
The President?
The Pentagon?
Certainly no state Governor, per your post.

I find it incredibly amusing, this notion to federalize everything, from people who claim the president is incompetent.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Quote: "Wouldn't it be neat if there had been a document ratified by the states when they entered the union *that gave someone else the right to create laws and policies that superseded those created by the states*?"
> 
> Your words.
> 
> ...


Whoever the federal government, aka "Someone else", puts in charge of the distribution of resources. FEMA, the DoD, whoever. I don't care.

Instead of having states bid or compete against each other, but actually receive supplies on a real by-need basis.

Point being, the federal government is supposed to help the states out, not hoard supplies, mismanage them, distribute them in the polar opposite of actual need, etc.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Oh no Meat.
> You have convinced me.
> Considering your post, you are right.
> Per you and Duke the Pentagon should enforce the Constitution, and enforce State quarantine nation wide and all immigration law.
> ...


Lol. We both know I didn't convince you of anything. Yeah, hindsight is cool like that.
Far as Biden. Not my choice, but a much more trustworthy moral compass



OzarkFathom said:


> Well then, perhaps you have come to see the absurdity of your post, my man.
> Meat said turn the whole thing over to the pentagon and you suggested we have a document with which federal law ("someone else") could supersede state law.
> Appears we have a meeting of the minds here, LMAO.
> 
> Lincoln did it. Remember how well that worked out?


Lol. You can't take what someone says and then keep moving the target. Now you're trying to take what I said and what other members said and work your mind reading. Too funny. 
As far as Lincoln. He knew of the potential cost and danger of what he dragged us into but recognized the cause. Trump recognized the danger, or should have, lied to us, for the cause of deaths vs dollars. Even now, when it appears he has succumbed to the harm in that, he can't get past his ego to lead


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Whoever the federal government, aka "Someone else", puts in charge of the distribution of resources. FEMA, the DoD, whoever. I don't care.
> 
> Instead of having states bid or compete against each other, but actually receive supplies on a real by-need basis.


How about we put the CDC in charge of mask protocol and testing development and distribution.
The FDA in charge of off label prescription.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> How about we put the CDC in charge of mask protocol and testing development and distribution.
> The FDA in charge of off label prescription.


The CDC is and never has been equipped for logistics management.

FEMA, on the other hand, is well suited to the task.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Far as Biden. Not my choice, but a much more trustworthy moral compass


Yeah gotta love that whole one son bangin the other son's widow, drug abuse, and Arkansas child support thing. One helluva family "moral compass" there....



> Trump recognized the danger, or should have, lied to us, for the cause of deaths vs dollars. Even now, when it appears he has succumbed to the harm in that,


Hard news for ya. Dollars ARE life.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> FEMA, on the other hand, is well suited to the task.


One word. Katrina

You are right about CDC. My bad.
Scratch the word "distribution" from my post.
How 'bout that mask and test development protocol?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> One word. Katrina


The decision not to mobilize FEMA's considerable assets and infrastructure right away doesn't change the fact that they existed then, and still exist today.

Having competent career civil servants as opposed to political appointees is key.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You don't remember the FEMA Katrina response apparently......

Here, a refresher.
FEMA actually was involved BEFORE the storm hit...

https://www.cato.org/blog/hurricane-katrina-remembering-federal-failures


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> You don't remember the FEMA Katrina response apparently......
> 
> Here, a refresher.
> FEMA actually was involved BEFORE the storm hit...
> ...


Tell us what infrastructure and logistical failures they had, as opposed to personnel, leadership and decision making failures, then.

Because aside from the usual CATO blather about states and private enterprise = good, federal government = bad, their only commentary was about the failure of personnel (leadership, decision making, etc), not the logistical components of FEMA.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yeah gotta love that whole one son bangin the other son's widow, drug abuse, and Arkansas child support thing. One helluva family "moral compass" there....
> 
> Hard news for ya. Dollars ARE life.





theMeat said:


> As far as Lincoln. He knew of the potential cost and danger of what he dragged us into but recognized the cause. Trump recognized the danger, or should have, lied to us, for the cause of deaths vs dollars. Even now, when it appears he has succumbed to the harm in that, he can't get past his ego to lead


I present to you that even now he can't get past his ego to lead. As an example he attacks those who don't bow to him. Like he has, therefore you will, against gov or whatever. As an example of your loyalty to follow you in response bring up Biden, then attack him like it's a jerry Springer show. At this point you might as well admit you come here to troll


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Tell us what infrastructure and logistical failures they had, as opposed to personnel, leadership and decision making failures, then.


"Supply Failures. Some emergency supplies were prepositioned before the storm, but there was nowhere near enough. In places that desperately needed help, such as the New Orleans Superdome, it took days to deliver medical supplies. FEMA also wasted huge amounts of supplies. It delivered millions of pounds of ice to holding centers in cities far away from the Gulf Coast. FEMA sent truckers carrying ice on wild goose chases across the country. Two years after the storm, the agency ended up throwing out $100 million of unused ice. FEMA also paid for 25,000 mobile homes costing $900 million, but they went virtually unused because of FEMA's own regulations that such homes cannot be used on flood plains, which is where most Katrina victims lived."


Fraud and Abuse. Free-flowing Katrina aid unleased a torrent of fraud and abuse. Federal auditors estimated that $1 billion or more in aid payments for individuals were invalid. Other estimates put the waste at $2 billion. An Associated Press analysis found that "people claiming to live in as many as 162,750 homes that did not exist before the storms may have improperly received as much as $1 billion in tax money." The _New York Times_ concluded: "Among the many superlatives associated with Hurricane Katrina can now be added this one: it produced one of the most extraordinary displays of scams, schemes and stupefying bureaucratic bungles in modern history, costing taxpayers up to $2 billion."
 Perhaps the most appalling aspect of the federal response to Katrina was that officials obstructed private relief efforts, as these examples illustrate: 



FEMA repeatedly blocked the delivery of emergency supplies ordered by the Methodist Hospital in New Orleans from its out-of-state headquarters.


FEMA turned away doctors volunteering their services at emergency facilities. Methodist's sister hospital, Chalmette, for example, sent doctors to the emergency facility set up at New Orleans Airport to offer their services, but they were turned away because their names were not in a government database.


Private medical air transport companies played an important role in evacuations after Katrina. But FEMA officials provided no help in coordinating these services, and they actively blocked some of the flights.


FEMA "refused Amtrak's offer to evacuate victims, and wouldn't return calls from the American Bus Association." Indeed, both the Motorcoach Association and the American Bus Association could not get through to anyone at FEMA to offer help for evacuations.


The Red Cross was denied access to the Superdome in New Orleans to deliver emergency supplies.


FEMA turned away trucks from Walmart loaded with water for New Orleans, and it prevented the Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel.


Offers of emergency supplies, vehicles, and specialized equipment from other nations were caught in federal red tape and shipments were delayed.

Impressive resume there LeDuke


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yeah gotta love that whole one son bangin the other son's widow, drug abuse, and Arkansas child support thing. One helluva family "moral compass" there....
> 
> Hard news for ya. Dollars ARE life.


Yes, and it's best to invest for long term goals.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> "Supply Failures. Some emergency supplies were prepositioned before the storm, but there was nowhere near enough. In places that desperately needed help, such as the New Orleans Superdome, it took days to deliver medical supplies. FEMA also wasted huge amounts of supplies. It delivered millions of pounds of ice to holding centers in cities far away from the Gulf Coast. FEMA sent truckers carrying ice on wild goose chases across the country. Two years after the storm, the agency ended up throwing out $100 million of unused ice. FEMA also paid for 25,000 mobile homes costing $900 million, but they went virtually unused because of FEMA's own regulations that such homes cannot be used on flood plains, which is where most Katrina victims lived."


Yeah, those are all decision making failures. Someone DECIDED to do those things late, or mistakenly.

I asked you to provide examples of their infrastructure and logistical failures. Not decision making failures. They WERE able to send supplies; their leadership failed in terms of timing and assessing where to send them. They had a supply chain in place; people failed, not the supply chain.

PLEASE DO NOT ADDRESS DECISION MAKING FAILURES IN YOUR NEXT RESPONSE TO ME.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> At this point you might as well admit you come here to troll


Uh no, if you look you will see that I clearly respond to the posts of others.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I don't know why OzarkFathom continually responds to points I never made, but he keeps on doing it. 

Me: Talk about infrastructure.

OzarkFathom: Failures by individual decision makers!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> I asked you to provide examples of their infrastructure and logistical failures. Not decision making failures. They WERE able to send supplies; their leadership failed in terms of timing and assessing where to send them. They had a supply chain in place; people failed, not the supply chain.


LMAO, my God man, Logistics IS decision making!
Bureaucrats making decisions. Management of distribution.
FEMA produces NOTHING but management. Management is decision making.
I've worked at Fed Ex over the last 40 years man.
Keep digging.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Uh no, if you look you will see that I clearly respond to the posts of others.


Oh no. It was just pointed out you brought up Biden, and then...
There's that hindsight again


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Oh no. It was just pointed out you brought up Biden, and then...
> There's that hindsight again


Actually you brought up his moral compass. Then I responded to that.
That's how conversations develop.
The political aspect of these conversations is always INTRODUCED by the usual anti- Trump rhetoric. The record is clear on that.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> LMAO, my God man, Logistics IS decision making!
> Bureaucrats making decisions. Management of distribution.
> I've worked at Fed Ex over the last 40 years man.
> Keep digging.


Let me put this in simple but different terms.

If I am in a rolling firefight in Afghanistan and ask for a body bag resupply of 5.56mm mags and 7.62 boxes to be dropped on my position, and then it gets sent to another FOB equidistant from my current position, that is not a failure of the delivery vehicle or the supply chain. That is a failure by some leader along the way who made a decision (mistake) and sent something to the wrong place. The capacity to deliver was there, but a human made the wrong decision at some point in the execution.

The infrastructure, such as the means to communicate the need, the stockpile of the needed supply, a vehicle to deliver it and the fuel/parts to sustain the vehicle were all there. As were people to load the vehicle, maintain the vehicle, fly the vehicle, and receive the supplies on the ground.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

This is what happens when we elect a reality tv star and con-man to lead us.

S. Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Iceland are all examples of how it should be done, UK and US are failures by idiot con-men that will likely cost hundreds of thousands of lives as well as massive numbers of small businesses and the jobs of those who work for them. 

How is it possible that we have all these cartoon-character idiots leading nations? Xi, Trump, Boris, Putin, Kim, Duterte, etc. It's a shame on all of us for allowing it.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> I don't know why OzarkFathom continually responds to points I never made, but he keeps on doing it.
> 
> Me: Talk about infrastructure.
> 
> OzarkFathom: Failures by individual decision makers!


You: FEMA
Me: FEMA


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Actually you brought up his moral compass.


As of 2016 the right can no longer judge anyone's moral compass in good faith.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Let me put this in simple but different terms.
> 
> If I am in a rolling firefight in Afghanistan and ask for a body bag resupply of 5.56mm mags and 7.62 boxes to be dropped on my position, and then it gets sent to another FOB equidistant from my current position, that is not a failure of the delivery vehicle or the supply chain. That is a failure by some leader along the way who made a decision (mistake) and sent something to the wrong place. The capacity to deliver was there, but a human made the wrong decision at some point in the execution.
> 
> ...


Again, your words:
"Having competent career civil servants as opposed to political appointees is key."

Then you should have never recommended FEMA.
Their record is clear.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> As of 2016 the right can no longer judge anyone's moral compass in good faith.


One word.
Clinton.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Actually you brought up his moral compass. Then I responded to that.
> That's how conversations develop.
> The political aspect of these conversations is always INTRODUCED by the usual anti- Trump rhetoric. The record is clear on that.


Yes the record is clear if you care to go back and look. You brought up Biden and now you move the target and say I brought up Biden's moral compass. Your attack had a certain Jerry Springer smack to it, and I present to you our leader,..and follower
What you sadly wouldn't believe is that nothing would make me happier then to see him rise to the occasion. So far not looking good. 
You keep accusing that your actions are because others are anti-trump. I find that interesting. Stick around


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Based on previous research on SARS and MERS, these folks my be able to enter clinical trials earlier than expected. From The Lancet:

Microneedle array delivered recombinant coronavirus vaccines: Immunogenicity and rapid translational development

"Taken together, our studies demonstrate the speed at which vaccines against emerging infections can be designed and produced using the recent advances in recombinant DNA technology. Combining emerging biotechnology methods with bioengineering advances in vaccine delivery strategies, it may now be possible to rapidly produce clinically-translatable vaccines against novel pathogens for human testing and subsequent global distribution in time to significantly impact the spread of disease."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(20)30118-3/fulltext


----------



## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Why do you guys even respond to the troll in this thread and any of the countless other threads that said troll turns into a total **** show? When he dies, the family will have to go out of state to hire pallbearers. He can’t get along with anybody.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Why do you guys even respond to the troll in this thread and any of the countless other threads that said troll turns into a total **** show? When he dies, the family will have to go out of state to hire pallbearers. He can't get along with anybody.


Haven't you posted this before?
Minus the family funeral stuff of course....
And here I thought we had a rather nice exchange on Mosins.....
LMAO


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Based on previous research on SARS and MERS, these folks my be able to enter clinical trials earlier than expected. From The Lancet:
> 
> Microneedle array delivered recombinant coronavirus vaccines: Immunogenicity and rapid translational development
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the Polio and Measles vaccine back in the day.
Sugar cube and a shoulder scar.


----------



## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

We did Oz. But that is 0.1% of the way it usually goes when dealing with you. I bet if we were to sit down together we would probably have more in common than not. But you will argue with a fence post, literally, if you didn’t have someone to disagree with.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Sir kayakalot said:


> We did Oz. But that is 0.1% of the way it usually goes when dealing with you. I bet if we were to sit down together we would probably have more in common than not. But you will argue with a fence post, literally, if you didn't have someone to disagree with.


Hey, fence posts have feelings too ya know


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sir kayakalot said:


> We did Oz. But that is 0.1% of the way it usually goes when dealing with you. I bet if we were to sit down together we would probably have more in common than not. But you will argue with a fence post, literally, if you didn't have someone to disagree with.


Can't argue with that ....
Lotta Fenceposts hereabouts.....


But I got lots a staples and barbed wire!


----------



## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Straighten up Oz. Debate is good.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Straighten up Oz. Debate is good.


I like de bait....
OK OK I've had my fun, back to work for me. Y'all have a good debate and try to stay safe with a little humor added now and again......

OK Naviator, you have the con.....


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OZ is so set in his beliefs that he'd likely not change them if his idol got on his knees to apologize to him for being a fool all this time. 
The thought of admitting that tRump is anything but some kind of messiah is his personal anathema. I do live in hope tho... 
He also likes to argue, and will never back down. He'll just ignore the parts that discomfort him and focus on diversion. He is very good at that.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

At the very least retitle this thread. “COVID-19: Point, Counterpoint” maybe...then all the various flavors and euphemisms of “Jane, you ignorant slut” would fit. Or clean out everything other than the science. There actually some helpful stuff in this thread by those in, knowledgeable about or related to health care and personal action.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Another weapon in the arsenal against SARS-CoV-2. A COVID-19 specific rapid antibody test for IgG and IgM.
This, in conjunction with viral testing can define people who had the virus, no longer carry it and in most likelihood are now immune.

"The FDA yesterday informed Cellex that it is issuing emergency use authorization (EUA) for the company's SARS-CoV-2 antibody test for detecting coronavirus."
(It appears to test for the antibodies, not the virus.)

https://www.massdevice.com/fda-clears-cellex-antibody-test-for-covid-19-not-bodyspheres/

Here. Everybody shake hands!


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Some cheer!


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yeah federally enforce things like the Second Amendment and such.
> Lock down any non critical travel to or from Washington, California, New York, and Louisiana.
> So much for the governors of California, New York, and Michigan eh.
> 
> ...


Dude. In EARLY MARCH you were saying this was nothing, and we should all just wash our hands.


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

theMeat said:


> Hey, fence posts have feelings too ya know


Great, now we have snowflake fenceposts.


----------



## Dream Plus (Feb 12, 2004)

MSU Alum said:


> Another weapon in the arsenal against SARS-CoV-2. A COVID-19 specific rapid antibody test for IgG and IgM.
> This, in conjunction with viral testing can define people who had the virus, no longer carry it and in most likelihood are now immune.
> 
> "The FDA yesterday informed Cellex that it is issuing emergency use authorization (EUA) for the company's SARS-CoV-2 antibody test for detecting coronavirus."
> ...


Wish I could remember what I used to know about class switching and antibody production.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> Dude. In EARLY MARCH you were saying this was nothing, and we should all just wash our hands.


Thats what a lot of people were saying.

Uniformity of restrictions from a federal level past down to the states/provinces would have been ideal to curb the infection rate. Not so with human nature to roam around. Places like NYC vs hicksville North Dakota. Interesting debate both ways. I did watch a Dr. Fauci on youtube talking about such restrictions on youtube last night. I remember him saying states independant from federal blah blah blah, but nothing sticks out. I'd gather its the North Dakota vs NYC debate.

How quickly to outlaw going out of your house, vs the fear of the public, vs the people who just dont listen. Its a juggling act.

Washing your hands yet not social distancing, being in crowds, non-essential travel. Dilemmas most face right.

I like Dr. Drews podcast, he is doing a lot of work on the boob-tubes. He worked with Dr. Fauci in the 1980s.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Another victim of covid 19:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/business/corona-beer-production/index.html


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Dream Plus said:


> Wish I could remember what I used to know about class switching and antibody production.


Tell me about it!
I've been furiously reviewing some of my old text books. I'm not saying the science has moved on, but there's a lot of pages dedicated to leeches.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Lone Rager said:


> Another victim of covid 19:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/business/corona-beer-production/index.html


As alcohol consumption has soared through the roof, un-presidented sales, distilleries working OT. Unfortunately, domestic violence calls have also risen dramatically, and commercial b&e's.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> Thats what a lot of people were saying.
> 
> Uniformity of restrictions from a federal level past down to the states/provinces would have been ideal to curb the infection rate. Not so with human nature to roam around. Places like NYC vs hicksville North Dakota. Interesting debate both ways. I did watch a Dr. Fauci on youtube talking about such restrictions on youtube last night. I remember him saying states independant from federal blah blah blah, but nothing sticks out. I'd gather its the North Dakota vs NYC debate.
> 
> ...


I'll say it again: Dr. Drew is a narcissist with the exact same sociopathic tendencies as the Orangutan in Chief. He is a has-been hack, a second rate Geraldo grasping for anything that will keep his face in front of gullible idiots.

A few weeks ago he was calling closing schools an overreaction. What is he saying now? Never mind, I don't give a f*&ck and neither should you.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

MSU Alum said:


> Tell me about it!
> I've been furiously reviewing some of my old text books. I'm not saying the science has moved on, but there's a lot of pages dedicated to leeches.


LMAO. Bloodletting for the win!

The fluids secreted by leeches to thin blood when they latch on has been the basis for several medical breakthroughs.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Does anyone else think its ridiculous for states to determine their own policies regarding this pandemic? What one state does affects all others. I'm all for individual rights but if there was ever a time and place for nationwide federal guidance it seems like this is it.


but I thought we were all vehemently against/afraid of Socialism....

just sayin'....


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> but I thought we were all vehemently against/afraid of Socialism....
> 
> just sayin'....


Correct, every man is an island.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Correct, every man is an island.


right now, for sure!!!


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Lone Rager said:


> Another victim of covid 19:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/business/corona-beer-production/index.html


This is ****ed up. I've been drinking one almost every night with dinner since this whole stinking mess started. I've been preaching against hoarders and now I'm about to become one.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Lone Rager said:


> Another victim of covid 19:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/business/corona-beer-production/index.html


Seems like the perfect opportunity for some smart marketing folks at Corona to make a fortune with this stupid virus....
Too bad

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

matt4x4 said:


> As alcohol consumption has soared through the roof, un-presidented sales, distilleries working OT. Unfortunately, domestic violence calls have also risen dramatically, and commercial b&e's.


less time at work = more time to drink


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm seeing A LOT more people out on the paved city bike trail


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Makes me proud. We got a guy down here that has figgered out how to whup this virus thang.......

You just know with a name like Delbert Hosemann you got the right guy in the Lt. Governor's chair.
Gives me the warm fuzzies knowing government got this thing under control.
Straight out of a Cohen Brothers movie, LMAO...

"Gonna drive them coroner bats outta every belfry in Mississippi."

"Every one of them was on board immediately," said Hosemann. "There will be bells ringing all over Mississippi."
https://yallpolitics.com/2020/04/03...s-to-support-healthcare-workers-and-the-sick/


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

OldBlue950 said:


> I'm seeing A LOT more people out on the paved city bike trail


I never knew there were so many dog owners in my town... dogs are getting plenty of exercise these days.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've heard a couple of experts say that morbidly obese people are the highest risk demographic for this disease, cycling could save your life!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The Fat South is in for a “winnowing”.....
Add to the 600,000+ annual heart disease count.....


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Makes me proud. We got a guy down here that has figgered out how to whup this virus thang.......
> 
> You just know with a name like Delbert Hosemann you got the right guy in the Lt. Governor's chair.
> Gives me the warm fuzzies knowing government got this thing under control.
> ...


It's a nice sentiment, trying to unify people for a worthy cause. I don't understand why he determined April 20th for an end date though because the pandemic isn't expected to peak until mid-May in most states and the problems associated with it will continue for many weeks after that.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I just hope if I get sick I can find my bell......
You wanna ring some bells fine, this ain’t what I expect to get for a Lt. Governor’s salary and pension.....
He may be a nice guy, never met him, but when the wife read that I couldn’t help but laugh and shake my head.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Sometimes ringing a bell just feels good


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Where’s my roller skates and rainbow suspenders...


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've heard a couple of experts say that morbidly obese people are the highest risk demographic for this disease, cycling could save your life!


I've gotten skinny to be a better rider, but riding hasn't ever gotten me skinny. It's way too fast and easy to replace those calories burnt over hours of riding.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Lone Rager said:


> I've gotten skinny to be a better rider, but riding hasn't ever gotten me skinny. It's way too fast and easy to replace those calories burnt over hours of riding.


Its all about intensity. I lost about 35 pounds w/o changing my diet when I decided to go harder and farther.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> I just hope if I get sick I can find my bell......
> You wanna ring some bells fine, this ain't what I expect to get for a Lt. Governor's salary and pension.....
> He may be a nice guy, never met him, but when the wife read that I couldn't help but laugh and shake my head.


Part of a leaders job is to unify and rally the people towards good causes.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Well I guess Cuomo needs to give the guy a call.....


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

The key there is not changing your diet. Burn more and eat the same, you lose weight. Burn more and eat more, you can wind up gaining weight. 

IDK if trying to lose weight now will help ameliorate getting sick with covid, but from what I've read, it's not being obese itself that is problematic, but rather the other ailments often associated with obesity that increase susceptibility to life threatening complications.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lone Rager said:


> I've gotten skinny to be a better rider, but riding hasn't ever gotten me skinny.


I'm always skinny but when I'm riding a lot I get scary skinny and can't put on weight no matter how much I eat. Or drink.

Even if you don't lose weight riding will improve your cardiovascular and immune system which apparently is a big advantage if you become infected with this disease.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

If you’re fat you should ring a bell.....


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lone Rager said:


> IDK if trying to lose weight now will help ameliorate getting sick with covid, but from what I've read, it's not being obese itself that is problematic, but rather the other ailments often associated with obesity that increase susceptibility to life threatening complications.


Even if it doesn't help to prevent the illness it's definitely advantageous in fighting it according to the MD's I've been listening to.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> If you're fat you should ring a bell.....


And if you're fat headed? 
I'm asking for a friend


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Well I guess Cuomo needs to give the guy a call.....


Actually I was thinking of a guy who lives @ 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually I was thinking of a guy who lives @ 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


Funny how last week the prez gave Cuomo props, so then fox did and the followers started spewing the same. Proof of that in these here pages. 
Guess Cuomo starting looking like too much of a leader, and offended someone's ego. So he started whining, then fox started, then the followers. Now proof of that too
Pathetic


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

cyclelicious said:


> I never knew there were so many dog owners in my town... dogs are getting plenty of exercise these days.


I think they are losing weight too. Unlike me, who doesn't get his feed measured in a cup.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Cuz after 8 years of Catholic schoolin' church bells make me happy, and don't make me think of funerals and death at all.:nonod:


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm starting to like this guy

https://www.syracuse.com/coronaviru...3&utm_medium=test_partner&utm_source=facebook

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> I'm starting to like this guy
> 
> https://www.syracuse.com/coronaviru...3&utm_medium=test_partner&utm_source=facebook
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


You're not the only one.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/490117-cuomo-popularity-highest-years-poll

Glad Jared is informing the prez on the 30k ventilators Cuomo was advised by the medical community we need.

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2020...w-York-City-didn-t-need-all-those-ventilators


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> I'm starting to like this guy
> 
> https://www.syracuse.com/coronaviru...3&utm_medium=test_partner&utm_source=facebook


This guy (Dr. Terry Simpson) also has a different take on mass quarantines but for different reasons and says it's dependent on easily available nationwide testing, which unfortunately we don't have. Interesting and informative.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Been watching the guy on the left of above video link.

Dr. Vough or something, DRV is his channel I think. Shows his doctor credentials at beginning of video. 8M hits on his top vid, average 500k hits on other vids. Seems to have a ton of vids. Anyways, he explains the covid-19 virus in his 8M vid. Funny guy, wouldnt expect him to swear LOL.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Been watching the guy on the left of above video link.
> 
> Dr. Vough or something, DRV is his channel I think. Shows his doctor credentials at beginning of video. 8M hits on his top vid, average 500k hits on other vids. Seems to have a ton of vids. Anyways, he explains the covid-19 virus in his 8M vid. Funny guy, wouldnt expect him to swear LOL.


Dr. Vuong. I've seen several of his vids too. His outlook is pretty grim but I actually feel a little better about the whole deal when armed with credible information.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

As of today, we have 8073 serious or critical cases of Bat-fever in the entire U.S. 
We have over 200,000 dedicated ventilators. 

The APSF/ASA released guidelines for purposing anesthesia machines as ICU ventilators (I don't feel like re-posting the link). Every operating room has these already.

Ford, GM and Tesla are going to be pumping these out like crazy - more than enough to start sending some to places like the U.K., which only has about 8100 total with 1/5th our population.

The biggest problem is going to be getting intubated by the lunch lady.

I'm going to hold off a bit on panicking over this concern.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> As of today, we have 8073 serious or critical cases of Bat-fever in the entire U.S.
> We have 200,000 dedicated ventilators.
> The APSF/ASA released guidelines for purposing anesthesia machines as ICU ventilators (I don't feel like re-posting the link).
> Ford, GM and Tesla are going to be pumping these out like crazy - more than enough to start sending some to places like the U.K., which only has about 8100 total.
> ...


~1.5 million cases predicted by Easter Sunday. I'm not panicking either but that's a pretty big number.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> ~1.5 million cases predicted by Easter Sunday. I'm not panicking either but that's a pretty big number.


It is a very big number. I just don't think that the number of ventilators will be the bottleneck. I think health care workers - or lack thereof, may be.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^I'd agree with that. Have also read 80% of those vented die regardless. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Agreed 
Qualified staff and facility efficiency.
Have been gathering they’re learning lots, and once on ventilator not good, although getting ppl on ventilator sooner is making for better results, and less time on ventilator. The longer you’re on, the worse it gets.
Oh, and think I heard that U.K. machines don’t work here, or are not allowed or something, not sure that’s true the other way round.
And blood collection, who can/can’t give


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> It is a very big number. I just don't think that the number of ventilators will be the bottleneck. I think health care workers - or lack thereof, may be.


Yeah I can't make an educated guess on that, seems like quite a few doctors think it might be a problem though because lots of other people need ventilators besides COVID-19 patients. Hopefully production will step up and fill the voids like you said.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

I can not believe what I just washed as our prez briefing


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Will the health care divisions have enough ventilators, n95 masks, ppe. Once the infected need icu, how do you start choosing who lives and who dies.

I just read today, there are 8 governors with no stay in place orders. Cant trust the media to begin with, as who knows what those state governors have in place aside from no stay at home orders, and Washington fearful of a nationwide order, they do want votes come election day. But the wishy washy information being told to the citizens, isnt looking good. Now they are saying wear any mask, instead of n95... to earmark them for medical professionals. Whats the rampup for producing ventilators and masks. MyPillowGuy converted half his production to masks, good promo on fox for that guy.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Good promo for all his new buds! In your face like jerry Springer


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Some good results using hydroxychloroquine + doxycyclinein in a small high risk group of elderly nursing home patients.

"His patients were under long-term acute care and had comorbidities such as hypertension, coronary artery disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or congestive heart failure."

https://nypost.com/2020/04/04/long-island-doctor-tries-new-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-patients/


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

The 94 year old resident (diagnosed positive for the covid19 virus on March 21 ) who is on the nursing unit below my floor ... has recovered after 2 weeks of isolation yesterday. No other veterans or staff on the unit or surrounding units are infected.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Wow great news cyclelicious! Stay safe


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> The 94 year old resident (diagnosed positive for the covid19 virus on March 28 ) who is on the nursing unit below my floor ... has recovered after 2 weeks of isolation yesterday. No other veterans or staff on the unit or surrounding units are infected.


That's fantastic

Why do you think Canada has such low infections?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

MSU Alum said:


> As of today, we have 8073 serious or critical cases of Bat-fever in the entire U.S.
> We have over 200,000 dedicated ventilators.
> 
> The APSF/ASA released guidelines for purposing anesthesia machines as ICU ventilators (I don't feel like re-posting the link). Every operating room has these already.
> ...


Huh? 8500 people have DIED, is that what you mean by serious cases? There are currently over 300,000 confirmed cases.

If you figure 10% of the confirmed cases need ventilators, 200,000 is not very many ventilators. At the rate of increase we are seeing, we will hit 2,000,000 cases, presumably needing 200,0000 ventilators, in two-three more weeks. I highly doubt we'll be sending any to the UK or anywhere else. And people need to stay on ventilators for weeks in some cases.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

cyclelicious said:


> The 94 year old resident (diagnosed positive for the covid19 virus on March 28 ) who is on the nursing unit below my floor ... has recovered after 2 weeks of isolation yesterday. No other veterans or staff on the unit or surrounding units are infected.


That's awesome. I have 2 soon-to-be 91 year olds I'm most worried about. One is my aunt in an Illinois assisted living facility, and the other is a street musician living at home and staying there though he desperately wants to be out playing. Here's a 104 year old who survived CV-19 AND the Spanish flue pandemic (though it doesn't say he caught the Spanish flu)

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/...merican-is-worlds-oldest-coronavirus-survivor


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

cyclelicious said:


> The 94 year old resident (diagnosed positive for the covid19 virus on March 28 ) who is on the nursing unit below my floor ... has recovered after 2 weeks of isolation yesterday. No other veterans or staff on the unit or surrounding units are infected.


That's one tough old bird there, Judy!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Tell me about it!
> I've been furiously reviewing some of my old text books. I'm not saying the science has moved on, but there's a lot of pages dedicated to leeches.


I can't even find any leeches these days.....


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

They're all in DC

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> They're all in DC
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Arf!


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Get your "Vit-a-men D"


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Rather than listening to YouTube/Faux News hacks, you should listen to this guy: https://www.hhs.gov/about/leadership/brett-giroir/index.html

They had an interview with him yesterday on SirusXM, and he was very impressive. He is now in charge of testing for HHS. Unfortunately, his straight answers were depressing. I can't find the interview online. If someone finds it, post it here. These facts are straight from the guy who is in charge of COVID-19 testing in the US, not some Geraldo on You Tube or a "news" channel.

- The current test is so bad that it gives a 30% false negative response. In other words, 30% of people tested who have the virus, show up as negative.

- They are working on a test that can be done by "non-medical personnel", but it will take a few weeks to know whether it is even as good as the current test, which is only good for confirming to *some* people that they have the virus, it cannot be used to rule out that someone has the virus.

- Because so many people are asymptomatic, and on top of that, the tests are so difficult and bad, they are now shifting to trying to find a quick, inexpensive, and valid test for whether someone has been exposed to COVID-19. The problem is that some current tests work for that, but they don't tell if someone has immunity or even if they are still shedding the virus. The goal of these tests will be to qualify whether someone can work as a care provider when the "second wave" hits.

- Read that last sentence again. He fully expects the rate of infection to drop because of the isolation orders, but since they cannot go on forever, once they are rescinded, he fully expects a second wave of infections, and the second wave may not happen until Fall. Because they know that health care professionals are currently a big source of problems, since they may not even know they have the virus when they go to work, when the second wave hits, the plan is to *only* allow people to be front line health care if they have been exposed *and* are not shedding the virus. Wrap your heads around that. Really, think about the implications of that. Really, really think about that.

- A vaccine is the Holy Grail, but best case, it is over a year away. Meanwhile, we are just going to flatten the curve. This is why the Prime Minister of Germany, Angela Merkel, came out a few weeks ago and said 60-70% of people will end up with the virus eventually. That wasn't a scare tactic, that was straight talk, which apparently people in Germany are mature enough to hear. Our fearless leaders think people in the US are too stupid to hear the truth.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

In2falling said:


> Get your "Vit-a-men D"


Yep!

Here's that study. Worth a read after you watch his video.
https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> Yep!
> 
> Here's that study. Worth a read after you watch his video.
> https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

In2falling said:


>


i just bought some!
Do you get a cut?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Will trade you some tp for vitamin c.
Also take ammo


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Lets not get crazy. The study showed the primary benefit was to those deficient in Vit-D. I didn't have the patience to try and tease out what smidgeon of a smidgeon of a percent benefit it provides to those of us with normal Vit-D levels, which is probably virtually all of us.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Turning fear into profits


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Lets not get crazy. The study showed the primary benefit was to those deficient in Vit-D. I didn't have the patience to try and tease out what smidgeon of a smidgeon of a percent benefit it provides to those of us with normal Vit-D levels, which is probably virtually all of us.


If you work inside you are almost certainly deficient along with 41.6% of American adults. One's gotta wonder if the government didn't fortify food with D how pervasive rickets still may be. Of course in the age of information we'd argue to no effect what the "real" cause was.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Back when I was a kid my parents made me take cod liver oil for vit D. I got so I kinda liked it.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> Rather than listening to YouTube/Faux News hacks


Yeah, like Dr. Fauci on team Trump.
or anyone in the field of doctor, just be sure that the info is mainstream and not some rogue dr.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> If you work inside you are almost certainly deficient along with 41.6% of American adults. One's gotta wonder if the government didn't fortify food with D how pervasive rickets still may be. Of course in the age of information we'd argue to no effect what the "real" cause was.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


 I didn't know the rate of deficiency was that high. I should have known, way to go murica. Being on a biking forum though, I was making certain assumptions about members having reasonably healthy diet awareness and spending a fair bit of time outside. With news of the Corona beer factory shutdown, I'm cutting down to one every other day, for example. And I'm going to try and make the effort to drink it on the deck.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

That's literally what I'm doing right now

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> With news of the Corona beer factory shutdown, I'm cutting down to one every other day, for example. And I'm going to try and make the effort to drink it on the deck.


Never liked Corona beer and don't care too much for Corona virus either


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> i just bought some!
> Do you get a cut?


No I am good you can keep it, have couple bottles and live in AZ LOL. 
Here is another good vid.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> I didn't know the rate of deficiency was that high. I should have known, way to go murica. Being on a biking forum though, I was making certain assumptions about members having reasonably healthy diet awareness and spending a fair bit of time outside. With news of the Corona beer factory shutdown, I'm cutting down to one every other day, for example. And I'm going to try and make the effort to drink it on the deck.


Lol. Desperate times call for desperate measures


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

OldBlue950 said:


> Lets not get crazy. The study showed the primary benefit was to those deficient in Vit-D. I didn't have the patience to try and tease out what smidgeon of a smidgeon of a percent benefit it provides to those of us with normal Vit-D levels, which is probably virtually all of us.


I would bet that majority of those having to get hospitalized over this focked up covid-19 virus are Vitamin D deficient.

Getting you levels up to a optimal levels might be the difference of getting mildly sick vs very sick?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

In2falling said:


> I would bet that majority of those having to get hospitalized over this focked up covid-19 virus are Vitamin D deficient.
> 
> Getting you levels up to a optimal levels might be the difference of getting mildly sick vs very sick?


Those getting ****ed up over covid-19 virus have a variety of serious health issues, the respiratory compromised patients are the serious factors. Tends to be a lot right, smokers, obese, old, asthma. The one thing common in the reports of the dead, nothing on what their problems were before the virus got them. A few reports here and there, but its rare. The official data is showing all ages are affected, but all ages are obese, all ages have underlying health issues. Just have to follow what the top doctors are saying, wear masks, stay 6' apart, stay home as much as possible, if traveled or have signs of sickness quarantine yourself, wash hands, disinfect the things you touch. Common sense things to do for prevention, yet people aren't doing what the officials are saying.

The fake news are the ones stating 20 year old died of virus, but look deeper, that 20 yr old had underlying health issues, serious ones. A lot of "hit" pieces like that to get clicks.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually I was thinking of a guy who lives @ 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


me too...


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Dirtrider127 said:


> Never liked Corona beer and don't care too much for Corona virus either


You might want to cut down even more than me then.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> Those getting ****ed up over covid-19 virus have a variety of serious health issues, the respiratory compromised patients are the serious factors. Tends to be a lot right, smokers, obese, old, asthma. The one thing common in the reports of the dead, nothing on what their problems were before the virus got them. A few reports here and there, but its rare. The official data is showing all ages are affected, but all ages are obese, all ages have underlying health issues. Just have to follow what the top doctors are saying, wear masks, stay 6' apart, stay home as much as possible, if traveled or have signs of sickness quarantine yourself, wash hands, disinfect the things you touch. Common sense things to do for prevention, yet people aren't doing what the officials are saying.
> 
> The fake news are the ones stating 20 year old died of virus, but look deeper, that 20 yr old had underlying health issues, serious ones. A lot of "hit" pieces like that to get clicks.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...n-urgent-warning-for-young-people/ar-BB11V0My

https://nypost.com/2020/04/02/healthy-new-jersey-baseball-coach-dies-of-coronavirus/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/dj-conrad-buchanan-coronavirus-death/index.html

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...father-of-6-dies-coronavirus-texas/134583.htm

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/coronavirus-healthy-mum-27-dies-21725767

https://www.businessinsider.com/39-year-old-woman-died-waiting-for-covid-19-test-2020-3?op=1

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...y/news-story/9ffec848ef4f27424f37e586b442780d

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/coronavirus-victim-healthy-dad-adolph-tj-mendez

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...wer-dies-deadly-disease-catching-patient.html

https://www.maravipost.com/30-year-old-zimbabwean-journalist-dies-of-coronavirus/


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> Those getting ****ed up over covid-19 virus have a variety of serious health issues, the respiratory compromised patients are the serious factors. Tends to be a lot right, smokers, obese, old, asthma. The one thing common in the reports of the dead, nothing on what their problems were before the virus got them. A few reports here and there, but its rare. The official data is showing all ages are affected, but all ages are obese, all ages have underlying health issues. Just have to follow what the top doctors are saying, wear masks, stay 6' apart, stay home as much as possible, if traveled or have signs of sickness quarantine yourself, wash hands, disinfect the things you touch. Common sense things to do for prevention, yet people aren't doing what the officials are saying.
> 
> The fake news are the ones stating 20 year old died of virus, but look deeper, that 20 yr old had underlying health issues, serious ones. A lot of "hit" pieces like that to get clicks.


You are completely wrong. You are a victim of the false news to minimize this thing. You need to stfu and listen and hear what is going on everywhere! You are part of the problem, and your attitudes are helping kill people unnecessarily. I would say to read the stories Honkin has taken the trouble to reference, but you will claim them as being fake clickbait. There are many such however, from all affected countries. Please try to figure out what is REALLY going on, and stop listening to misinformed people who try to make this all about politics or the economy. This is LIFE OR ****ING DEATH FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Fat Thor, once quarantine ends:





On a side note, there is anecdotal reporting that many hospitals are nearly empty, with empty ICU's. If it became necessary, since you can't move units, transporting patients out of area inundated is an option....or should be.

The military has a robust NBC warfighting capability. Transporting large populations of biologically infected troops is part of that capability. I know they have contingency plans for that.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> but I thought we were all vehemently against/afraid of Socialism....
> 
> just sayin'....


States deciding is fine. What needs to be done in New York does not need to be done to the same extent in 45 or so other states at this time...and probably never will be. The data shows this being very different even by county.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> If you work inside you are almost certainly deficient along with 41.6% of American adults. One's gotta wonder if the government didn't fortify food with D how pervasive rickets still may be. Of course in the age of information we'd argue to no effect what the "real" cause was.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Source?

Vitamin D deficiency varies greatly by race. Yes, white privilege actually applies here.

Given my history with melanoma I am required to avoid the sun. My oncologist suggested a vitamin D supplement until he saw that I take a multi-vitamin. He said that would have enough.

Here is some interesting info on the topic:

https://www.cdc.gov/nutritionreport/pdf/nr_ch2b.pdf


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Source?
> 
> Vitamin D deficiency varies greatly by race. Yes, white privilege actually applies here.
> 
> ...


I pulled that stat from a different study but this one seems a little more relavent.
https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/. 
Yep, the closer to the equator your genes hail from the more exposure you require to produce vit D. Personally and a little OT but I find that fascinating. Really a function of evolving to UV availability due to angle of incidence, and atmospheric filtering.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> States deciding is fine. What needs to be done in New York does not need to be done to the same extent in 45 or so other states at this time...and probably never will be. The data shows this being very different even by county.


Because how Davenport IA handles it doesn't affect Moline IL right across the river? I don't think anyone is saying that every area needs to deal with COVID 19 exactly the same way but if there was ever a place for reasoned national oversight backed by the best science available this is it. The way it stands now political affiliation is what separates many states, the 8 remaining states without stay at home orders are of course all represented by Republican governors.


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*The Next Wave*

Follow the " Money "

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/06/cor...-going-to-be-complete-chaos-mortgage-ceo.html


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> I pulled that stat from a different study but this one seems a little more relavent.
> https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/.
> Yep, the closer to the equator your genes hail from the more exposure you require to produce vit D. Personally and a little OT but I find that fascinating. Really a function of evolving to UV availability due to angle of incidence, and atmospheric filtering.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Melanin blocks UV.
UV is what causes the production of vitamin D3.

Certainly an evolutionary pressure. Dark skinned Scandinavians died of Vit D deficiency, light skinned Africans died of melanoma.
The evolution of sickle cell anemia in endemic malaria zones is another interesting example.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Horse dewormer

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/anti-parasitic-drug-kills-covid-19-in-lab/ar-BB1288OH?ocid=sf

In vitro but promising

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The way it stands now political affiliation is what separates many states, the 8 remaining states without stay at home orders are of course all represented by Republican governors.


And if we accept your premise, what is the political affiliation of the high infection/death rate areas?


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

OzarkFathom said:


> And if we accept your premise, what is the political affiliation of the high infection/death rate areas?


you know the answer - trump's fault. not poor response by local gov't


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

The idea of modulating body temperature generally, not just for bat-fever, is kind of interesting for a number of applications.






After being in the Navy, I'm known for my long hot showers - at least by my wife.
I was wondering how much it affected my temp.
Today, before a shower, I started at just under 98 degrees F and came out at 100 degrees F. That was a major surprise.

Their study brought them up to 103.5, so I'm not sure what the temperature threshold is for the effect to manifest.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^ oral or rectal?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Lone Rager said:


> ^^^ oral or rectal?


There are movies regarding both.

Funny - this was "in the ear".
(she forcefully expostulated!)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> And if we accept your premise, what is the political affiliation of the high infection/death rate areas?





be1 said:


> you know the answer - trump's fault. not poor response by local gov't


^Fallacious arguments


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Well from way back, the emergency fever reduction remains ice bath or cold running water. So it stands to reason that inhaling warm water vapor along with raising ambient temperature would elevate body temp.

Just remember to keep the oral and rectal thermometers in their respective well labeled containers.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The way it stands now *political affiliation is what separates many states,* the 8 remaining states without stay at home orders are of course all represented by Republican governors.





J.B. Weld said:


> ^Fallacious arguments


You get the point then.
Good.
Now perhaps on reflection you can see the reason for "If we accept your premise".

https://www.sunherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241753966.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> Horse dewormer
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/anti-parasitic-drug-kills-covid-19-in-lab/ar-BB1288OH?ocid=sf
> 
> ...


Used Ivermectin on my horses for years.....interesting stuff.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

There was new preliminary modeling out yesterday, with a more detailed release due tomorrow.
Some of the data is encouraging, some not.

COVID-19 estimation updates | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation

I'll only reference the good news.

This is for the entire U.S.
Current modeling suggests a death toll of 81,776 (49,431 to 136,401) which is a significant reduction from the modeling of only a few days ago.

Total beds needed at peak: 140,800 +/-
Total ventilators needed at peak: 18,992 +/-
Total ICU beds needed at peak: 29,210 +/-

I think totals are through August 4, from reading their previous model work, but I don't see that in the article.

These are all significant reductions, but it's just a model. It's a great trend that could turn around, or the model could be off, but it has been pretty accurate to date.

I get the sense that here in Utah we are at or near the peak. It's just a gut feeling, though, and double peaks - looking at Spanish Flu data and other data are common.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Because how Davenport IA handles it doesn't affect Moline IL right across the river? I don't think anyone is saying that every area needs to deal with COVID 19 exactly the same way but if there was ever a place for reasoned national oversight backed by the best science available this is it. The way it stands now political affiliation is what separates many states, the 8 remaining states without stay at home orders are of course all represented by Republican governors.


Governors, regardless if they shut their state down or not, will be held accountable via the electorate if their actions do not work for their state.

Both Davenport and Moline report ZERO cases. Risk seems pretty low.

Yes, "of course" 8 Republican governors feel they are doing what is best for the people of their state, as is their right under federalism.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Outhouse said:


> I like nurse ben, but to make such a BS claim is not honest, and its not helping anyone, It factually will not infect everyone. The rest of his post I agree with. Glad you showed ignorance and your true colors. I have seen fence post with a higher IQ then you.


Maybe he's not really a nurse?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> You get the point then.
> Good.
> Now perhaps on reflection you can see the reason for "If we accept your premise".
> 
> https://www.sunherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241753966.html


Maybe you should revisit the definition of "premise"?

Now I'll just wash my hands and move along....oh wait, I can no longer afford luxuries like soap.... because I don't have a job.

Still learning....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hindsight on this is going to be huge. Since no one really knows, doctors and nurses included. 
Now on the other side of this, blowback for those who urged for more precautions, compared to those who urged against ...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Governors, regardless if they shut their state down or not, will be held accountable via the electorate if their actions do not work for their state.
> 
> Both Davenport and Moline report ZERO cases. Risk seems pretty low.


You seemed to have missed my point. I don't care if Governor whoever from whatever state is held accountable at some later date via the skewed election process when their state policies affect my life 3 feet away from an imaginary border.

You really don't think a cohesive plan that knows no borders would be more effective than a disjointed one against a disease that also knows no borders? Should individual states establish their own limits on groundwater contamination and air pollution? That just doesn't make logical sense to me. The US is doing comparatively bad compared to other countries as a direct result from poor planning and poorly implementing one.


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Iowa may have a Republican governor but they have been following guidelines. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe you should revisit the definition of "premise"?
> 
> Now I'll just wash my hands and move along....oh wait, I can no longer afford luxuries like soap.... because I don't have a job.
> 
> Still learning....


Nope.
Premise fits perfectly.

Just like a guy with a computer on the internet after stating he cannot afford soap which according to science is integral to fighting the virus that he is so concerned about.
You set the premise of not being able to afford a $3 bottle of soap.
You set the premise of the relationship between politics and infection.
Clearly.


> _The way it stands now _*political affiliation is what separates many states, the 8 remaining states without stay at home orders are of course all represented by Republican governors.*


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Just like a guy with a computer on the internet after stating he cannot afford soap which according to science is integral to fighting the virus that he is so concerned about.


Can you not comprehend that there are millions in America who would have to choose between buying food and buying soap? And that maybe if they were provided with soap (or masks, testing, etc.) it would benefit every other American?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Can you not comprehend that there are millions in America who would have to choose between buying food and buying soap? And that maybe if they were provided with soap (or masks, testing, etc.) it would benefit every other American?





> I can no longer afford luxuries like soap.... because I don't have a job.


I cannot comprehend that you cannot afford to wash your hands with soap.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

MSU Alum said:


> There was new preliminary modeling out yesterday, with a more detailed release due tomorrow.
> Some of the data is encouraging, some not.
> 
> COVID-19 estimation updates | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation
> ...


It may actually depend on when the next real heat wave throughout the Sun Belt and lower Midwest will happen. Part of this is social distancing and quarantines, the other part is when it will get warmer and weaken the virus. I just looked at the local weather for my area in California, the high for the next 12 days is only 72F. That's not good news. That means the peak may last longer, maybe three more weeks, before a nice heat wave crosses the lower part of the US and weakens the virus. You can fight the virus all you want in the Winter/Spring but what really destroys it in the air is heat and humidity.

So if it's doubling on average ever 5 days, let's assume there is a really nice heat wave of 80F+ coming last week of April, 20 days from now. 9500 Americans dead so far, that doubles every 5 days.

If your total death toll of around 80,000 is correct, that, believe it or not, is the same number of Americans that died from the flu in 2017-2018. Surprised? Yes, it's worth it to tank the economy if only 80,000 died instead of 2-3 million without any social distancing/quarantines, but that would make this just a bad flu season and nothing more. The peak would be 40,000 deaths, and then the back end of the peak is another 40,000, for 80,000 total. That means if this is correct that it would only double two more times (10K to 20K deaths, then 20K to 40K, hits peak, then tail end of peak is another 40K deaths over the next few --- or several ---- months). That means if it's doubling every 5 days, the peak would come in 10 days, or mid-April around the 15th to 17th.

Because the weather is not getting warmer yet, I'm thinking closer to 20 days for the peak (I hope I'm wrong but we'll have to see if and how much the weather plays into this). If it's 20 days, then that's 80K doubled twice to 320K dead. That's more in line with other estimates of 100-250K. 4 times as many dead would be the equivalent of a really, really bad flu season.

To put this in perspective with past flu seasons (and remember the population was lower in the past so you need to correct for deaths per 100,000 and not just total deaths):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374803/

In 1984 there were 40,000 deaths from the flu, roughly 10 per 100,000 Americans. 235 million people in 1984. About 330 million Americans in 2019.

If 80,000 die from the Coronavirus (not counting Influenza deaths), that's 24 per 100,000 Americans, not a huge difference from occasional bad flu seasons, thanks to stricter measures. But conversely, shouldn't we have gotten stricter with older people in the past about wearing masks and self-quarantines, if they were dropping like flies every Flu season by the tens of thousands?

The last big Flu pandemic in America was 1969, about 18 per 100,000. The 2020 Coronavirus death per 100,000, if it's only 24 is not too bad actually, relatively speaking. But if the weather plays a role and the peak is not for three more weeks, 320,000 dead translates to 96 dead per 100,000, which is the worst respiratory pandemic since 1918-1919. That season, 1700 died per 100,000, almost 20 times as much per capita than 320K Americans dying from Coronavirus this year. 1.7% of the entire population died. That one was really bad. If that virus came back this year and we only had 1918 levels of medicine/healthcare to deal with it (and in some regions of the country, it feels like that), the death toll in 2020 for this one would be extrapolated all the way to 5.6 million Coronavirus deaths.

We survived the 1918-1919 flu season. We will survive this. But with all the mask, ventilator, gown, etc. shortages, someone would have to be completely deaf, dumb, and blind not to see that we need serious health care reform ASAP.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> I cannot comprehend that you cannot afford to wash your hands with soap.


apparently nor can you understand an anecdote


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> apparently nor can you understand an anecdote


I simply recognize political rhetoric when I see it.......


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I simply recognize political rhetoric when I see it.......


Lol. No one would know better


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> Maybe he's not really a nurse?


I'm a nurse practitioner, but thanks for playing.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> If your total death toll of around 80,000 is correct, that, believe it or not, is the same number of Americans that died from the flu in 2017-2018. Surprised?


These were the actual numbers from the CDC:
"The overall burden of influenza for the 2017-2018 season was an estimated 45 million influenza illnesses, 21 million influenza-associated medical visits, 810,000 influenza-related hospitalizations, and 61,000 influenza-associated deaths".
61,000, not 80,000.

Of course, it's not MY numbers. And no, 61,000 is not a surprise.

The estimate of 100,000 to 240,000 that was put out a while back was a modeling estimate. 
This is the newest modeling estimate.
These are all from the University of Washington.

They are put out by epidemiologists who are well aware of environmental - weather - effects and whether or not that might apply to this specific virus. That's not yet well known other than as historical data from "similar" viruses.

Edit: Also, this reduction is a clear result of individuals complying with the principals reducing contagion. As I said, you can get double bumps in these curves. I posted the data from the Spanish Flu a while back where that clearly happened. We're not in a position to let up, unfortunately. At least not yet.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> It may actually depend on when the next real heat wave throughout the Sun Belt and lower Midwest will happen. Part of this is social distancing and quarantines, the other part is when it will get warmer and weaken the virus. I just looked at the local weather for my area in California, the high for the next 12 days is only 72F. That's not good news. That means the peak may last longer, maybe three more weeks, before a nice heat wave crosses the lower part of the US and weakens the virus. You can fight the virus all you want in the Winter/Spring but what really destroys it in the air is heat and humidity.
> 
> So if it's doubling on average ever 5 days, let's assume there is a really nice heat wave of 80F+ coming last week of April, 20 days from now. 9500 Americans dead so far, that doubles every 5 days.
> 
> ...


Clear wide minded thinking. ^
The other aspect is how loss of lives will effect those who have lost loved ones, and who was telling them don't worry this isn't bad and/or pointing to stats
Law suits against fox for what they gave as news is already piling up


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## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

Except that in the past, during bad flu seasons, the hospitals and ICUs were not packed with patients. Hospitals did not have to park refrigeration trucks in their lots to store the dead bodies, the US Navy did not need to moor hospital ships near the coast to assist with patients. I don't recall NY ever needed to erect MASH type units in Central Park.

At least I don't remember this being done in the past. I also don't ever remember a mass shortages of PPE or ventilators. But I am only 56 so I may have missed something.

Anyway, regardless of what spin the media puts on their "reports" the basic logistics stuff I see makes me think this is way worse that a bad flu. But I am not a doctor or medical professional.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So you got the high road, the low road, and the middle road.

The road you take determines the outcome. 

The high road is stay home and minimize the spread of the virus.

The low road is to continue doing the same things you did before the quarantine.

What I'm finding is that my clients in the urban areas have moved from low to high road much faster than my rural clients; some of my rural clients continue along the low road.

In theory, the urban areas are going to have greater success at flattening the curve, whereas their rural cousins are going to get hammered by contagion.

The real impact will be higher acuity in rural areas compounded by inadequate treatment resources, leading to higher rates of mortality.

So here's the thing: You get to choose, like voting, your choice is small but when taken as a whole it is significant. You may not agree with what I think, you may choose to ignore warnings, but in the end we will all learn the results of our decisions.

Based on the rapidly growing number of American's infected with this virus, I suspect America is now experiencing the results of an inadequate response.

I have been amazed by some of the responses on this thread, but honestly, it's not much different from some of the things my clients have said to me.

As of two weeks ago I am seeing all of my clients by tele, but my wife is still seeing clients in person. It's only a matter of time, so I'll be sure to post my status when I get sick ....

In the meantime, please, don't be a putz, do the right thing and care for yourself and others, let's flatten that curve "everywhere".


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

We are not limited to options A or B.
We do not have to rely on some emergency medecine.
That was highly likely to happen.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> So here's the thing: You get to choose, like voting, your choice is small but when taken as a whole it is significant. You may not agree with what I think, you may choose to ignore warnings, but in the end we will all learn the results of our decisions.


And that I sort of disagree with, in the same way I disagree that individuals should choose whether or not they can dump poison into groundwater or public water supplies. That "vote" can sicken everyone.

Tough choices for sure.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> So you got the high road, the low road, and the middle road.
> 
> The road you take determines the outcome.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I cannot agree more. I live in rural northern New Mexico. While the state has relatively low Covid-19 cases and people who have tested positive for this novel coronavirus, we are a poor state without much advanced medical support, even here in Santa Fe. Be careful, stay safe, and be well by following social distancing, wearing face masks when in public, and WASHING YOUR HANDS FREQUENTLY! Be responsible and do the right things. We can debate the politics of it later. We are in the midst of a worldwide health crisis which we must first survive in order to complain later about how things were managed. Grow a brain cell already!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I was on vacation last week. We had planned to visit out kids in St George and attend the Huricane MTB Fest, then go to Prescott for a week of riding. This vacation was my first in a year, it was planned well in advance; I even had a buddy flying down from Wenatchee to join us at the fest.

We cancelled, we stayed home, I built trails and worked on the house.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't annoyed and frustrated by this whole virus thing. My clients and staff are stressed, my family is stressed, but in time this will pass.

Not being able to go out to eat is a first world issue.

Not being able to sleep because you're worried about getting sick is the real deal. The other night during "pillow talk" my wife said that she was "just waiting to get it".

So yesterday she hands me a list of all her passwords for accessing retirement accounts, bank, credit card, etc... F**K!

Three years ago she almost died of meningitis, likely community acquired.

There are many paths in this life.



beastmaster said:


> Thank you! I cannot agree more. I live in rural northern New Mexico. While the state has relatively low Covid-19 cases and people who have tested positive for this novel coronavirus, we are a poor state without much advanced medical support, even here in Santa Fe. Be careful, stay safe, and be well by following social distancing, wearing face masks when in public, and WASHING YOUR HANDS FREQUENTLY! Be responsible and do the right things. We can debate the politics of it later. We are in the midst of a worldwide health crisis which we must first survive in order to complain later about how things were managed. Grow a brain cell already!


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> It may actually depend on when the next real heat wave throughout the Sun Belt and lower Midwest will happen. Part of this is social distancing and quarantines, the other part is when it will get warmer and weaken the virus. I just looked at the local weather for my area in California, the high for the next 12 days is only 72F. That's not good news. That means the peak may last longer, maybe three more weeks, before a nice heat wave crosses the lower part of the US and weakens the virus. You can fight the virus all you want in the Winter/Spring but what really destroys it in the air is heat and humidity.
> 
> So if it's doubling on average ever 5 days, let's assume there is a really nice heat wave of 80F+ coming last week of April, 20 days from now. 9500 Americans dead so far, that doubles every 5 days.
> 
> ...


There is ZERO evidence that the infection rate will drop when it gets warmer. Zero. Why would there be cases in Singapore, Indonesia, Ecuador?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Ecuador


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> There is ZERO evidence that the infection rate will drop when it gets warmer. Zero. Why would there be cases in Singapore, Indonesia, Ecuador?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Ecuador


While this may be true simply because we just don't know yet, we can apply what we know from other virus. In cooler less populated northern Italy was worse than southern. in my county more people lil cooler less cases, next county over the opposite. Not saying tthat proves anything, many variables. But will take a glimmer wherever I can 
Think the globe is gonna have to start coming to grips with how long it's going to take to get back to normal. As normal as that new normal will be


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I wonder what are some of the causes for some people to be asymptomatic? Could it be something as simple as this?

https://drsircus.com/general/viruses-are-ph-sensitive/


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> There is ZERO evidence that the infection rate will drop when it gets warmer. Zero. Why would there be cases in Singapore, Indonesia, Ecuador?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Ecuador


Wrong Again.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/03/24/warm-humid-weather-coronavirus/


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Cornfield said:


> I wonder what are some of the causes for some people to be asymptomatic? Could it be something as simple as this?
> 
> https://drsircus.com/general/viruses-are-ph-sensitive/


That's the $64,000 question!
Interesting the pH issue you raise.

"It has been shown that hydroxychloroquine accumulates in the lysosomes of the malaria parasite, raising the pH of the vacuole."

"Hydroxychloroquine accumulation in human organelles also raise their pH..."

and

"The raised pH in endosomes, prevent virus particles (such as SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2) from utilizing their activity for fusion and entry into the cell.8"

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB01611

pH, temperature, etc. have pretty strong effects on protein and enzyme activity, and on chemical reactions, as I'm sure you're aware. Maybe that's the process.

So many things occur symbiotically that it just might be almost impossible to narrow it down to one, or a dozen, factors.

Your post sent me down the rabbit hole on pH. With western diets contributing to acidosis, there are ways of overcoming that trend.

"Alkalizing nutritional supplements, such as the minerals calcium, magnesium, ZINC and potassium, as well as the amino acid L-glutamine and Krebs salts, can also help.1 It's important to limit phosphates that bind to calcium and prevent its absorption. Dietary phosphates are commonly found in carbonated drinks and animal protein.24

https://www.newhope.com/science/how-balance-your-body-s-ph

Good diet, biased towards plants, low stress, no carbonated beverages.....just the same old lessons over and over.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong Again.....
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/03/24/warm-humid-weather-coronavirus/


Warm, humid weather COULD slow the virus. I don't think I'd be cockadoodle dooing that to the world to mean honkinunit is wrong. Just cuz the Washington Post said it doesn't make it true. Try harder Oz. You'll get it one of these days


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> That's the $64,000 question!
> Interesting the pH issue you raise.
> 
> "It has been shown that hydroxychloroquine accumulates in the lysosomes of the malaria parasite, raising the pH of the vacuole."
> ...


I've been looking at ph test strips on amazon, will probably look at the electronic meters too! I've been steadily improving my diet over the last few years, so I'm up for taking it a step further. The plant based foods that promote an alkaline ph look a lot like what I eat already. The big ones to cut for me would be coffee, alcohol, and meat, which I have experimented with cutting back on already. It would be cool to see how reductions in those would change my ph on the test strips until I was alkaline, I bet it wouldn't be hard to maintain after that.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Warm, humid weather COULD slow the virus. I don't think I'd be cockadoodle dooing that to the world to mean honkinunit is wrong. Just cuz the Washington Post said it doesn't make it true. Try harder Oz. You'll get it one of these days


Uh no Sir K., if you read beyond the headline they outline why Dr. Fauci made the statement suggesting it was likely.

I understand the meaning of the term "Zero evidence" as stated by Honkin and defended by yourself in taking issue with Dr. Fauci.
But I'm afraid I'll have to take Johns Hopkins, numerous studies, and Dr. Fauci's opinion as cited in that W.P. link over what you and the other guy keep saying.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

I’m not going to argue with you like you wish. I’ve got better things to do. The studies have not been peer-reviewed nor had time to even be proven. It’s all speculation. Quit telling people they are wrong just for the sake of trying to start ****. 

Things to put on your to-do list:
Study harder and wash hands longer. 

Things to take off your to-do list:
Cockadoodle dooing speculation and bullshit.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong Again.....
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/03/24/warm-humid-weather-coronavirus/


"However, the research on how the novel coronavirus behaves in various temperature and humidity levels is only just getting underway."

Hmm. There is probably a study getting underway to determine whether Oreos slow the spread of the virus as well.

Results are what matters.

Read stories about Ecuador. Guess why Ecuador is named "Ecuador"? Because it is on the Equator.

Social distancing will slow the virus more so than weather. The flu doesn't magically disappear in Summer, it lessens because people are naturally not staying inside as much, they are exercising more, and schools are out.

In September, if schools are back in, and people are operating normally, we will have another surge of the virus. Until there is a vaccine, almost everyone has had it, or it mutates, we are going to be dealing with this.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“Zero evidence. Zero”

Nuff said.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Sir kayakalot said:


> I'm not going to argue with you like you wish. I've got better things to do. The studies have not been peer-reviewed nor had time to even be proven. It's all speculation. Quit telling people they are wrong just for the sake of trying to start ****.
> 
> Things to put on your to-do list:
> Study harder and wash hands longer.
> ...


Lots of **** in your posts.....


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Referring to your Zero evidence.......EXACTLY my point. Thank you


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Dr Fauci's evidence......
Unusually low numbers in warmer climates with high humidity and high rates of travel from China.
........................
"But that doesn't fully explain why Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines have largely been spared mass outbreaks of the disease, at least not on the scale that has been seen in Western Europe and the United States. All had huge numbers of Chinese visitors at the start of the year, have crowded cities and relatively simple health-care systems.
Cambodia was criticized early in the epidemic for failing to close its borders with China and even failing to promote the wearing of masks, with Prime Minister Hun Sen accused of putting his relationship with his strongest foreign backer ahead of the needs of his people. Nearly two months since its first case, the country has recorded only 91 cases of the coronavirus, according to a Johns Hopkins University database, with almost all the infected people thought to have contracted the virus abroad."


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> The US is doing comparatively bad compared to other countries as a direct result from poor planning and poorly implementing one.


Dude, look at the data...actually I am sure you could look at it, but not understand it. The US is NOT doing comparatively bad. Are some doing better? Yes, a few. Some are doing worse, much worse.

The US would be doing much better if not for New York and New Jersey which account for nearly half the cases. Perhaps the moron mayor should not have been telling NYC to go to dinner and a show while others were social distancing.

California was a hot spot first, then New York roared past it and has not looked back.

As far as boarders go, trust me, we are none too happy about FIBs coming up here to escape.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Let it go. You notice what our dear leader looks like when he starts spewing things that are out of his league? That’s what you’re doing. It makes you look goofy and you lose credibility. You can do this. I will help you along. Just shhhhhh..... stick to the things that you know. We’re all pulling for ya Oz


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Uh no Sir K., if you read beyond the headline they outline why Dr. Fauci made the statement suggesting it was likely.
> 
> I understand the meaning of the term "Zero evidence" as stated by Honkin and defended by yourself in taking issue with Dr. Fauci.
> But I'm afraid I'll have to take Johns Hopkins, numerous studies, and Dr. Fauci's opinion as cited in that W.P. link over what you and the other guy keep saying.





OzarkFathom said:


> Dr Fauci's evidence......


Are you saying his evidence is likely, or he likely has evidence?
Because "likely" doesn't tell us much, for now, as evidence would, if we knew for sure. That means, so far, evidence = zero
You drinking?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“A new study uploaded to the research site SSRN over the weekend finds that 90 percent of the coronavirus transmissions so far have occurred within a specific temperature (37 to 63 degrees) and absolute humidity range. For areas outside this zone, the virus is still spreading, but more slowly, according to the study by two scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.”

Again, claiming “ Zero evidence. Zero.” that climate affects infection rates is wrong.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

"An unpublished analysis comparing the weather in 500 locations around the world where there have been Covid-19 cases seems to suggest a link between the spread of the virus and temperature, wind speed and relative humidity. Another unpublished study has also shown higher temperatures are linked to lower incidence of Covid-19, but notes that temperature alone cannot account for the global variation in incidence.

Further as-yet-unpublished research predicts that temperate warm and cold climates are the most vulnerable to the current Covid-19 outbreak, followed by arid regions. Tropical parts of the world are likely to be least affected, the researchers say."

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200323-coronavirus-will-hot-weather-kill-covid-19

Again, claiming "Zero evidence.Zero" that climate affects infection rates is wrong.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> "A new study uploaded to the research site SSRN over the weekend finds that 90 percent of the coronavirus transmissions so far have occurred within a specific temperature (37 to 63 degrees) and absolute humidity range. For areas outside this zone, the virus is still spreading, but more slowly, according to the study by two scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."
> 
> Again, claiming " Zero evidence. Zero." is wrong.


Speculation at this point. Too early to know, except you of course.
We know with enough certainty to advise that it enters the body through mouth, nose and eyes, that's why social distancing and masks help. We also know it does a pretty good job of living, and spreading, and killing the host bodies that are 98 degrees, and humid.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

"LOS ANGELES -- A Los Angeles doctor said he is seeing significant success in prescribing the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine in combination with zinc to treat patients with severe symptoms of COVID-19.

Hydroxychloroquine has been touted as a possible treatment for COVID-19 by President Trump among others, but it remains controversial as some experts believe it is unproven and may not be effective."

Dr. Anthony Cardillo said he has seen very promising results when prescribing hydroxychloroquine in combination with zinc for the most severely-ill COVID-19 patients.

*"Every patient I've prescribed it to has been very, very ill and within 8 to 12 hours, they were basically symptom-free," Cardillo told Eyewitness News. "So clinically I am seeing a resolution."
*https://abc7news.com/coronavirus-drug-covid-19-malaria-hydroxychloroquine/6079864/


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Everyone's an expert on the Covid19 virus.

What does the mainstream doctors say?
CDC
Fauci


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

matt4x4 said:


> Everyone's an expert on the Covid19 virus.
> 
> What does the mainstream doctors say?
> CDC
> Fauci


_
Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and a visible figure on the White House coronavirus task force, said at a Wednesday press briefing that a seasonal cycle to the pandemic is possible, perhaps even likely._

Also the Dr in LA is mainstream....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> _
> Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and a visible figure on the White House coronavirus task force, said at a Wednesday press briefing that a seasonal cycle to the pandemic is possible, perhaps even likely._
> 
> Also the Dr in LA is mainstream....


Makes sense to me. Treatments look promising. Without huge improvements in treatment or a cure or a vaccine, this is our new world


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

matt4x4 said:


> Everyone's an expert on the Covid19 virus.
> 
> What does the mainstream doctors say?
> CDC
> Fauci


One of the nation's top public health officials suggested Monday that because Americans are taking social distancing recommendations "to heart," the death toll from the novel coronavirus will be "much, much, much lower" than models have projected.

"If we just social distance, we will see this virus and this outbreak basically decline, decline, decline. And I think that's what you're seeing," said Robert Redfield, the Director of the Centers for Disease Control.

"I think you're going to see the numbers are, in fact, going to be much less than what would have been predicted by the models," he said.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/cdc-director-downplays-coronavirus-models-says-death-toll-033800213.html


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

If we keep social distancing how do we get back to normal, and if we go back to normal how do we stop the increase in cases. 
Gets back to the two factors we can use to curb, short of a fix. Those 2 things are herd immunity and stopping the spread/social distancing. Without randomized testing for infection and who has become immune, we’re pretty much in the dark. For many the risk of immunity through exposure not a good idea. Social distancing helps slow the spread but doesn’t kill the virus. Nor does it necessarily lower the amount of cases. Will lower the curve and number of deaths simply because hospitals can serve better because of a lower curve


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

D Prez was warned bigs problems would come from that kind of thing.
Busch was warned twice.
They are just stupid or they just do not care.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> "An unpublished analysis comparing the weather in 500 locations around the world where there have been Covid-19 cases seems to suggest a link between the spread of the virus and temperature, wind speed and relative humidity. Another unpublished study has also shown higher temperatures are linked to lower incidence of Covid-19, but notes that temperature alone cannot account for the global variation in incidence.
> 
> Further as-yet-unpublished research predicts that temperate warm and cold climates are the most vulnerable to the current Covid-19 outbreak, followed by arid regions. Tropical parts of the world are likely to be least affected, the researchers say."
> 
> ...


I don't expect to get through to someone with the critical thinking ability of a 6th grader, but in the scientific community, an "unpublished study" means less than someone scribbling on the back of a McDonald's bag.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> I don't expect to get through to someone with the critical thinking ability of a 6th grader, *but in the scientific community, an "unpublished study" means less than someone scribbling on the back of a McDonald's bag*.


Wrong again.
Publication Bias.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/publication-bias


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Cornfield said:


> I've been looking at ph test strips on amazon, will probably look at the electronic meters too! I've been steadily improving my diet over the last few years, so I'm up for taking it a step further. The plant based foods that promote an alkaline ph look a lot like what I eat already. The big ones to cut for me would be coffee, alcohol, and meat, which I have experimented with cutting back on already. It would be cool to see how reductions in those would change my ph on the test strips until I was alkaline, I bet it wouldn't be hard to maintain after that.


I wonder if pH measuring requires blood.

I think there are quite a few things one can do that MAY be of some use against virus in general, and possibly bat-fever as well, with low cost, additional benefits to health and very little probability of harm.
Good diet - which may raise pH as well. The benefits of a good diet go beyond that.
Mom's have been right for 50,000 years on this one!

Zinc supplements - just don't overdose!

Vitamin D supplements - especially as we age.

Finnish Sauna, or equivalent (heat/cold) - the data on this is substantial and peer reviewed.

Exercise, reduce stress, get plenty of sleep, etc. - lifestyle choices.

Try not to get in pi$$ing contests on mtbr! - 

Personal hygiene, including the idea that we're probably dropping hand-shaking.

We know Zinc interrupts the function of RdRP. But, you have to get it into the cells. Zinc ionophores are another thing you could add. EGCG and Quercetin are both shown to have strong ionophore effects.

I'm doing other stuff, as others are too, like vitamin K2, magnesium/coenzyme Q10 if you're on statins, etc. or no statins if you are adversely affected. I think most of us are in this general mindset anyway.

It's a good idea to add one at a time and to clear it with your pharmacist before adding anything in (mine knows my prescribed drugs, so is knowledgeable about how these would impact me.)

Try not to come out of this looking like "fat Thor".

I used to be a glass half full kind of person - now i just pour in more whiskey. There are only so many concessions I'll make.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

It is believed that because hydroxychloroquine effects ph at the point when virus is trying to fit into h2 lung cells is how/why it works for some and not for others


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I was thinking about the PH thing and wonder if nebulizing it would be of any help. First would be the question of whether getting high PH steam into your lungs/nose/throat would be of any consequence on the virus. Second would be if steam can be high PH or not. I know for sure bicarb stabilizes hot water at a high PH but not sure on the steam. 

Definitely like the idea of compiling a list of things we can do to supercharge/optimize our immune system. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> I was thinking about the PH thing and wonder if nebulizing it would be of any help. First would be the question of whether getting high PH steam into your lungs/nose/throat would be of any consequence on the virus. Second would be if steam can be high PH or not. I know for sure bicarb stabilizes hot water at a high PH but not sure on the steam.


That's an interesting idea. Maybe best in a hospital setting to maintain a tight control on the pH.

In steam boilers, a higher pH is better for maintenance, so it's certainly possible to affect the pH of steam. I'd guess H and OH ions would boil off with the water, but leave the sodium bicarbonate as a residue.

There are situations where IV sodium bicarbonate is used in patients with acidosis, but it may be necessary to have good lung function.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/intravenous-sodium-bicarbonate

"Intravenous sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) solution is an appropriate intervention for reversing metabolic acidemia, provided that lung and cardiac function are adequate."


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> There was new preliminary modeling out yesterday, with a more detailed release due tomorrow.
> Some of the data is encouraging, some not.
> 
> COVID-19 estimation updates | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation
> ...


81776 deaths (or thereabouts) by August 4 has been the projection all along at

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

I've been following that site for a couple weeks. It hasn't changed in the last few days. It does assume social distancing etc stay in place through May.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> 81776 deaths (or thereabouts) by August 4 has been the projection all along at
> 
> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
> 
> I've been following that site for a couple weeks. It hasn't changed in the last few days. It does assume social distancing etc stay in place through May.


From what I understand the model uses 100% social distancing , and follows ny infection rate as a template. Would think there's not 100% distancing, and less populated areas not as infectious. Models are cool, especially curvy variety with long legs


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> I was thinking about the PH thing and wonder if nebulizing it would be of any help. First would be the question of whether getting high PH steam into your lungs/nose/throat would be of any consequence on the virus. Second would be if steam can be high PH or not. I know for sure bicarb stabilizes hot water at a high PH but not sure on the steam.
> 
> Definitely like the idea of compiling a list of things we can do to supercharge/optimize our immune system.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


That's darn smart.
From what I'm gathering the people who suffocate from this virus is because their immune systems reaction was too big, and basically flooded their lungs. If this is the case then earlier less aggressive immune response is what meds /treatment should be looking for


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> That's darn smart.
> From what I'm gathering the people who suffocate from this virus is because their immune systems reaction was too big, and basically flooded their lungs. If this is the case then earlier less aggressive immune response is what meds /treatment should be looking for


It's the cytokine storm, a major player during the Spanish Flu epidemic and others as well.
Both are positively impacted by hydroxychloroquine, Azithromicyn and IL-6 blockers:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27381687


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> I wonder if pH measuring requires blood.


Not the ones I've been looking at on amazon. They mostly say saliva or urine, so I guess you pee on a little strip of paper, or into a cup and dip the strip, and then match the color it turns to their chart.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Cornfield said:


> Not the ones I've been looking at on amazon. They mostly say saliva or urine, so I guess you pee on a little strip of paper, or into a cup and dip the strip, and then match the color it turns to their chart.


Does the pH of urine and saliva give a good representation of the pH of blood?


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> 81776 deaths (or thereabouts) by August 4 has been the projection all along at
> 
> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
> 
> I've been following that site for a couple weeks. It hasn't changed in the last few days. It does assume social distancing etc stay in place through May.


If you look at the previous estimates, three days prior the estimate was 93,531.

It has been changing continuously.
2 April estimates: 
"...our March 26
release estimated 81,114 deaths (uncertainty interval 38,242 to 162,106) through the first wave, while today's release estimates 93,531 deaths (range of 39,966 to 177,866) through the first wave."

http://www.healthdata.org/sites/default/files/files/Projects/COVID/Estimation_update_040220.pdf

Archives are at the bottom.

The models do not assume 100% social distancing. They are statistical projections of the trend line. The trend line will be affected by social distancing, but it's not an algorithm of the estimates. That's one of the reasons they vary.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> If you look at the previous estimates, three days prior the estimate was 93,531.
> 
> It has been changing continuously.
> 2 April estimates:
> ...


Heard dr Birx say the other day that the models they, wh, were showing were based on 100% distancing. Not sure if that model is the same one you're pointing to. Will point out that models are only as good as the data and parameters you enter. They are also a good way to fudge the numbers, be able to deflect the blame of the results when wrong, while still being able to improve your ability to lead the sheeple


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> Does the pH of urine and saliva give a good representation of the pH of blood?


I just started looking into ph testing yesterday, so I don't know if it needs to. A quick Google shows mostly urine testing, so that may be sufficient, will have to look into it more. Here's a place to start: https://www.healthline.com/health/ph-of-blood#blood-p-h-test

"A urine pH litmus paper test won't show your blood's pH level, but it may help show that something is off-balance."


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Heard dr Birx say the other day that the models they, wh, were showing were based on 100% distancing. Not sure if that model is the same one you're pointing to. Will point out that models are only as good as the data and parameters you enter. They are also a good way to fudge the numbers, be able to deflect the blame of the results when wrong, while still being able to improve your ability to lead the sheeple


It's put out by the same University of Washington statistical group. There is the possibility of course, that Birx, et al apply variations. But I expect she was simplifying the results while trying to inspire social distancing. While social distancing isn't part of the algorithm, it influences the data, so I guess you could say that current degrees of social distancing (as they vary by time - and they have, fortunately) are in the trend line. But, there isn't a variable input where you can randomly change that value.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Cornfield said:


> I just started looking into ph testing yesterday, so I don't know if it needs to. A quick Google shows mostly urine testing, so that may be sufficient, will have to look into it more. Here's a place to start: https://www.healthline.com/health/ph-of-blood#blood-p-h-test
> 
> "A urine pH litmus paper test won't show your blood's pH level, but it may help show that something is off-balance."


I don't see how it can hurt. It may not be a direct correlation though, so if the results don't show an increase in pH after changing diet, adding supplements and so on, I'd hesitate to "double down" to get those results.


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> If you look at the previous estimates, three days prior the estimate was 93,531.
> 
> It has been changing continuously.
> 2 April estimates:
> ...


Their March 26 estimate was 81,114 deaths, so like I said it hasn't changed much in 2 weeks. I didn't check it every single day and daily variation is expected if the model is updated daily. The point was, it was never estimating the 200,000 that has been tossed about so there really hasn't been a significant reduction in the estimates over the long term. These lower numbers have always been there, and those higher numbers were worst case scenario.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> While social distancing isn't part of the algorithm, it influences the data, so I guess you could say that current degrees of social distancing (as they vary by time - and they have, fortunately) are in the trend line. But, there isn't a variable input where you can randomly change that value.


Not understanding. If varied degrees are in the trend line, how can there not be a way to change that input. And if you can't isn't it more a factual timeline, less a model. ?


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> It's the cytokine storm, a major player during the Spanish Flu epidemic and others as well.
> Both are positively impacted by hydroxychloroquine, Azithromicyn and IL-6 blockers:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27381687


https://www.drpawluk.com/blog/coronavirus-pemf-and-vitamin-d3/

"Vitamin D decreases pro-inflammatory cytokines in the lung. It also facilitates intracellular adaptive immunity by decreasing pro-inflammatory cytokines and increasing anti-inflammatory cytokines and regulatory WBCs. In a study, 4000 IU per day of D3 for 2 months, as compared to 400 IU per day, significantly reduced activation. (Konijeti)"

Get ur Vit-a-menD


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

In2falling said:


> Get ur Vit-a-menD


Yes, get on your bikes and ride!


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Not understanding. If varied degrees are in the trend line, how can there not be a way to change that input. And if you can't isn't it more a factual timeline, less a model. ?


It is a bit of a factual timeline in that the efforts to mitigate are reflected in the data. I should add that as you get more "granular" on the data set (which is a fancy way of saying, as the population study gets smaller) it become easier to get reliable data in which you predict based on individual assumptions rather than prior data.

I get what you're driving at though. It's a legitimate point, but as the population increases, arbitrarily setting those values, rather than accepting them as embedded in the data becomes much less accurate.

It is a bit of circular logic, to be sure. But it's the reason that these value ranges tend to collapse around the estimate as we get more information.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> It is a bit of a factual timeline in that the efforts to mitigate are reflected in the data. I should add that as you get more "granular" on the data set (which is a fancy way of saying, as the population study gets smaller) it become easier to get reliable data in which you predict based on individual assumptions rather than prior data.
> 
> I get what you're driving at though. It's a legitimate point, but as the population increases, arbitrarily setting those values, rather than accepting them as embedded in the data becomes much less accurate.
> 
> It is a bit of circular logic, to be sure. But it's the reason that these value ranges tend to collapse around the estimate as we get more information.


Thank you for making that easy to understand. Basically what I got from that is values are changed based on observation over time to make models smarter as they age. Sorta the opposite of younger, dumber qualities you'd want in a super model


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Thank you for making that easy to understand. Basically what I got from that is values are changed based on observation over time to make models smarter as they age. Sorta the opposite of younger, dumber qualities you'd want in a super model


I think that's right.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I hesitated to post this study. It's a Chinese study, and these tend not to be transparent. The real killer is that I found it through fairly sketchy references. But, you can read it and judge for yourselves.

One thing I will say about it is that it MIGHT explain the much higher death rate among men and it provides an explanation of the process by which hydroxychloroquine MAY (jury's still out) treat bat-fever. To say it isn't peer reviewed may be a gross understatement. I make no claims other than, "veeery interesting".

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID...e_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Posted this over in the Lurg thread a week ago....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472405/

The recent success has been through compromising the viral envelope then zinc can deal with the infection.

The study also addresses immunity regulation.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

WHALENARD said:


> I was thinking about the PH thing and wonder if nebulizing it would be of any help. First would be the question of whether getting high PH steam into your lungs/nose/throat would be of any consequence on the virus. Second would be if steam can be high PH or not. I know for sure bicarb stabilizes hot water at a high PH but not sure on the steam.
> 
> Definitely like the idea of compiling a list of things we can do to supercharge/optimize our immune system.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Where are you getting the idea to alkalize your mucosal membranes?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929530/

Acute (first) infection slightly acidifies mucus membranes, then later over the course of the infection the mucosa is alkalized.

I really would not mess with your mucosal pH, it's a complicated system with a lot of feedback loops, and if you artificially add alkali to it, it may down-regulate the system that naturally alkalizes the mucosa during an infection. Not so much different than using a nasal inhaler too much and then getting rebound nasal congestion two hours later.


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## Piloto (Aug 17, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, get on your bikes and ride!


That. Mid 50s here. If I'm not on the mountain bike, I'm on the Harley. If the big virus gets me, it gets me. At least I'll have antibodies then. Yes, I'll live. So will the wife. Before you ask, I'm doing what my 90-something father is telling me to do. This isn't his first rodeo either.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> Where are you getting the idea to alkalize your mucosal membranes?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929530/
> 
> ...


That's actually a really interesting read thanks for posting. Based on that I'd agree with your conclusion. Most every chemical reaction in your body and in nature is PH dependant though.

My thought was if the replication is already prolific in your lungs introducing high PH steam may help prevent further replication. Certainty more just spitballing a thought in context of the thread than suggest anybody go ahead and do it.

With that, undoubtably, any water used in a neti pot or nebulizer is not matched to your mucosal PH yet achieves the desired result of breaking up mucous. Now the study you posted makes me wonder what that mechanism actually is. Maybe it's not the steam at all but the PH of the water...steam is perhaps just the mechanical delivery?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Eat healthy
pop your multivitamin
lay off the booze
work out a little bit


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Piloto said:


> That. Mid 50s here. If I'm not on the mountain bike, I'm on the Harley. If the big virus gets me, it gets me. At least I'll have antibodies then. Yes, I'll live. .


That doesn't make much sense, what if you get it, fall seriously ill and die, or your wife? We're week two in lock down here. And it can be avoided by just staying at home away from others for awhile?


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## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

Piloto said:


> That. Mid 50s here. If I'm not on the mountain bike, I'm on the Harley. If the big virus gets me, it gets me. At least I'll have antibodies then. Yes, I'll live. So will the wife. Before you ask, I'm doing what my 90-something father is telling me to do. This isn't his first rodeo either.


You'll probably get it and live.... after you pass it on to four other people who will die from it.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rkwfxd said:


> You'll probably get it and live.... after you pass it on to four other people who will die from it.


Nothing in his post indicates what you infer.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

This would mean fast production and distribution compared to a vaccine.

This treatment is similar in concept to COVID-19 convalescent plasma or hyperimmune globulin therapies, which are currently being tested, according to an FDA announcement last Friday. They involve the passive transfer of antibodies. This treatment differs however, in that it does not require plasma from patients who have already beaten the disease, but can be manufactured synthetically, a much more efficient process. 
It also is effective immediately, Glanville said. "With a vaccine, that shot has little pieces of the virus in it, and so when you get injected with it, your immune system starts to learn how to attack those pieces of the virus, and that takes time; that takes many weeks, might be six or seven weeks before you have protection with an antibody. With a therapeutic, that syringe or IV bag contains the antibodies directly. So when they infuse it into you, your body doesn't need to do anything."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/syntheti...-a-quick-coronavirus-treatment-132122036.html

There is still no vaccine against HIV.


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## rkwfxd (Jan 8, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Nothing in his post indicates what you infer.


I disagree


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> You'll probably get it and live.... after you pass it on to four other people who will die from it.


Let us know how it turns out.....


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Mudguard said:


> And it can be avoided by just staying at home away from others for awhile?


People cant stay still for an hour, let alone weeks. They gotta be out and about, making noise with their mufflers.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mudguard said:


> That doesn't make much sense, what if you get it, fall seriously ill and die, or your wife? We're week two in lock down here. And it can be avoided by just staying at home away from others for awhile?


I can't speak for Piloto but when I go on a ride I am staying away from others. Social distancing at it's finest!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I can't speak for Piloto but when I go on a ride I am staying away from others. Social distancing at it's finest!


Agreed getting out is particularly pleasing right now. Don't see a problem if your distancing and taking precautions. The problem comes when something goes wrong like an accident or breakdown. In some areas a hospital is not a good place to end up. In others they are bracing for impact and they are eerily slow. Regardless, st this point without sufficient testing would have to think it's spread lots more than we know.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Connecting dots
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug

Then

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisett...anofi-french-drugmaker-of-hydroxychloroquine/

Now France stops Hydroxychloroquine trail due to health complications

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/06/hydroxychloroquine-update-for-april-6


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

https://abc7.com/coronavirus-drug-covid-19-malaria-hydroxychloroquine/6079864/


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Has anyone been able to get their hands on any N95 masks?

I got a line on one supplier but they are out of stock for another week.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Has anyone been able to get their hands on any N95 masks?
> 
> I got a line on one supplier but they are out of stock for another week.


Until they have enough of them all N95's should go to medical personnel.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Until they have enough of them all N95's should go to medical personnel.


That no workie in San Bernardino. Other counties to follow for sure

https://www.sbsun.com/s-b-county-re...irtual-religious-services-to-slow-coronavirus


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Black people are overwhelmingly dying from coronavirus in cities across the US
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-black-people-die-major-cities/2961323001/

Vitamin D and African Americans
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/4/1126/4664238

"Vitamin D insufficiency is more prevalent among African Americans (blacks) than other Americans and, in North America, most young, healthy blacks do not achieve optimal 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] concentrations at any time of year."

Has to make you wonder if there is some correlation here?

As crazy as this sounds, I personally think we have another hidden pandemic here (Vitamin D deficiency)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> That no workie in San Bernardino. Other counties to follow for sure
> 
> https://www.sbsun.com/s-b-county-re...irtual-religious-services-to-slow-coronavirus


Not N95's, from the article you linked-



> Homemade cloth ear loop covers, bandanas and handkerchiefs, and neck gaiters may be used, county officials said. Surgical masks and N95 masks must be saved for health care works and emergency responders, county health officials said.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

N95 masks can be made using one of any number of patterns available online. My wife is thinking of doing some in addition to the regular masks she has been doing, she's just waiting on material for the filter itself to try it out.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Seal and filter are the critical difference. But any covering reduces the exchange of vapor. I do not think the valve however, filters the exhale.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

In2falling said:


> Black people are overwhelmingly dying from coronavirus in cities across the US
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-black-people-die-major-cities/2961323001/
> 
> Vitamin D and African Americans
> ...


That's entirely possible. Listening to the brief yesterday, it sounded as though there is a much higher incidence of comorbidities in the Black community. The rates of being overweight and having diabetes are higher. I don't have data, but I expect in inner city locations, it might be pretty hard to find stores selling healthy, fresh fruits and vegetables as well

From the data I've seen, men of all ethnicities who get the virus (there are other parameters, but I don't remember what they are. I think it has to do with infections beyond a level of severity rather than comorbidities) are 3 times as likely to die than women.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

An N95 respirator with an exhalation valve does provide the same level of protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. The presence of an exhalation valve reduces exhalation resistance, which makes it easier to breathe (exhale). Some users feel that a respirator with an exhalation valve keeps the face cooler and reduces moisture build up inside the facepiece. However, respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field must be maintained (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Well. This is either good news, or an example of how much modeling can be off. 

I'm hoping it's good news!
From IHME, 2 April data prediction Vs. 8 April data prediction....

This is for the entire U.S.

2 April:
Peak day - 15 April
8 April:
Peak day - 11 April

2 April:
Total deaths through 4 Aug - 93,531
8 April:
Total deaths through 4 Aug - 60,415

2 April:
Total ventilators needed for COVID on peak day - 31,782
8 April:
Total ventilators needed for COVID on peak day - 16,524

(I believe some states such as California and Washington are now returning unneeded ventilators for use elsewhere.)

2 April:
Total ICU beds needed at peak - 39,727
8 April:
Total ICU beds needed at peak - 19,438

For New York state, it appears today is projected to be the peak day with a need statewide for 5008 ventilators.

Talking to my cousin who is an anesthesiologist out east, hospitals are unusually empty. People have put off elective surgeries and others are afraid to go (he's NOT in New York - completely different story, I'm sure).
He still expects the worst.
Here in Salt Lake much the same. 

Tracking these estimates is about like tracking S&P futures. 
It would sure be nice if the downward trend continued. Less death and suffering.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> An N95 respirator with an exhalation valve does provide the same level of protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. The presence of an exhalation valve reduces exhalation resistance, which makes it easier to breathe (exhale). Some users feel that a respirator with an exhalation valve keeps the face cooler and reduces moisture build up inside the facepiece. However, respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field must be maintained (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html


We are not intending to provide masks for 1st line medical staff! Our dining table setup is hardly geared for that, but we may be able to make some that are a little better protection for regular use than those without filters. 
I'll leave the 'proper' ones to the pros, but has anyone seen 'em lately?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> We are not intending to provide masks for 1st line medical staff! Our dining table setup is hardly geared for that, but we may be able to make some that are a little better protection for regular use than those without filters.
> I'll leave the 'proper' ones to the pros, but has anyone seen 'em lately?


I'll ask my daughter what they're wearing in the OR.
I think she flunked N95 "fitting" and uses something else.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You miss my point. 
I'm not knocking your mask. 
I am simply pointing out that a mask with a valve does not filter exhaled air. It is designed to filter inhaled air only. That fact applies to ANY manufactured respirator that I am aware of. Even a self contained breathing apparatus allows free exhale, unfiltered.

Respirators are designed to filter air on inhalation only, which protects the wearer. The air exhaled is not filtered through the diaphragm in the valve.
The purpose of the valve is to maintain the mask to face seal by reducing exhale pressure within the mask.

Again,


> . _*However, respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field must be maintained (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field. *_


This suggests that a valved mask worn by a healthcare worker will not protect a patient from an infected healthcare worker.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Does anybody know why the medical industry is so focused on N95 protection? I would think, given the circumstances, we would be pushing for N100 or full respirators. Our crews must use at least N100 when handling any silica containing products. Seems like a professional discrepancy. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Does anybody know why the medical industry is so focused on N95 protection?


Better is the enemy of good enough?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Better is the enemy of good enough?


Yep. 
Rebreathers not practical.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Better is the enemy of good enough?


I guess that would depend on how many of the medical professionals have caught Covid following proper protocol.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yep.
> Rebreathers not practical.


There's a lot one could unpack with that statement. N100's are only marginally bulkier than their N95 brethren but the the fitting/elastic is definitely more robust. Granted it's only 5% more filtering but over a 12 hour shift I reckon that 5% adds up. Perhaps there are clinic trials using both or other criteria driving that, genuinely curious as to why the 95 is the standard?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> Well. This is either good news, or an example of how much modeling can be off.
> 
> I'm hoping it's good news!
> From IHME, 2 April data prediction Vs. 8 April data prediction....
> ...


People haven't "put off" elective surgeries, they've been cancelled. Same effect, but important difference.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> People haven't "put off" elective surgeries, they've been cancelled. Same effect, but important difference.


Early stage elective abortions haven't been cancelled. Some women are "putting those off" though.

I had a procedure scheduled (not an abortion!) that I cancelled. It wasn't cancelled by my doctor.

Do you think you could find other examples, if you put your mind to it, or researched it?

And why is the difference important if it doesn't affect the data?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> I guess that would depend on how many of the medical professionals have caught Covid following proper protocol.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Is the decision to use N95's data driven?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> People haven't "put off" elective surgeries, they've been cancelled. Same effect, but important difference.


People are wanting to stay out of hospitals, and elective stuff was canceled.

Same way most people with a brain don't need to be told to distance, stay at home, blah blah blah


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> Well. This is either good news, or an example of how much modeling can be off.
> 
> I'm hoping it's good news!
> From IHME, 2 April data prediction Vs. 8 April data prediction....
> ...


That's really good news! I am sure some here won't think so and find some way to twist it into something bad. The modeling being that far off is concerning. Starts to make you wonder about the accuracy of other modeling used these days to advance certain political ideologies.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

joshtee said:


> That's really good news! I am sure some here won't think so and find some way to twist it into something bad. The modeling being that far off is concerning. Starts to make you wonder about the accuracy of other modeling used these days to advance certain political ideologies.


Bingo!
5 days ahead is hard.....50 years ahead is easy.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Is the decision to use N95's data driven?


Vs better filtering, good question.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

joshtee said:


> That's really good news! I am sure some here won't think so and find some way to twist it into something bad.


Do you really believe anyone here would think a better outlook than expected (less people sick or dying) is a bad thing?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Why n95 is the standard an interesting question. Why not better? Turns out it's a matter of practicality. This latest crisis will surely raise the standard, as has been the case with other events.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90479846/the-untold-origin-story-of-the-n95-mask


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

joshtee said:


> That's really good news! I am sure some here won't think so and find some way to twist it into something bad. The modeling being that far off is concerning. Starts to make you wonder about the accuracy of other modeling used these days to advance certain political ideologies.


Lol, yeah. Wouldn't it be low for a person to make good news like that political.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> Do you think you could find other examples, if you put your mind to it, or researched it?


Around here, cancelling of elective surgeries are probably big part of freeing up beds. As far as the ER is concerned, it's that all the usual people that clog up the ER with minor non-emergent issues are not coming in. Plus doctors are able to turn the resource abusers loose quicker with less liability. This is generally a good thing and hopefully will institute some changes to emergency medicine in the future. On the other end though, people with legit medical emergencies are also scarred to go in.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Lol, yeah. Wouldn't it be low for a person to make good news like that political.


Low, yes. Unusual, no.

Nobody wants people to die. When we loose less then is predicted, by a lot. That's 'Better News'. It's trending better and should be considered good.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not N95's, from the article you linked-


True, for now. A step in the right direction for sure. Given that most stats are showing how effective mitigation can be, would think masks will be encouraged more. If our country didn't find itself in a mask shortage, would be done already


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Why n95 is the standard an interesting question. Why not better? Turns out it's a matter of practicality. This latest crisis will surely raise the standard, as has been the case with other events.
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90479846/the-untold-origin-story-of-the-n95-mask


That's a pretty good read. The longer you wear a N95 the MORE effective it filters, won't hear that on the news cycle. I wonder at what point, besides air/breathing efficiency, is the point of diminishing returns though.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> True, for now. A step in the right direction for sure. Given that most stats are showing how effective mitigation can be, would think masks will be encouraged more. If our country didn't find itself in a mask shortage, would be done already


I heard an interesting interview with the CEO of the largest US based mask company and he explained how it's impossible to meet the demand right now and explains the reasons why. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-are-made-in-america-to-deal-with-coronavirus


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> Early stage elective abortions haven't been cancelled. Some women are "putting those off" though.
> Do you think you could find other examples, if you put your mind to it, or researched it?
> 
> And why is the difference important if it doesn't affect the data?


It varies by state. A number of states, including Utah of which you spoke, have either cancelled (Texas, OR, to name 2) or restricted (Utah) elective surgeries.

It only matters for the sake of truth.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I heard an interesting interview with the CEO of the largest US based mask company and he explained how it's impossible to meet the demand right now and explains the reasons why. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-are-made-in-america-to-deal-with-coronavirus


Yup. Considering where most of the masks come from, and that it's a global need, and they're disposable, etc. can see this being a problem. Herd immunity a good thing too, at a cost, inevitable


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> That's a pretty good read. The longer you wear a N95 the MORE effective it filters, won't hear that on the news cycle. I wonder at what point, besides air/breathing efficiency, is the point of diminishing returns though.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Can't point to a link or study. From wearing one can tell you it gets noticeably harder to breath throu when mask gets particles collecting. What ends up happening is more air is forced around the mask. Made apparent by the dust/dirt pattern present when I wear em
Looks like, judging by what first responders and hospital staff wear in some places, some countries have higher standards. How much is the norm, or whether they improved quickly as a result of this event, idk


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I heard an interesting interview with the CEO of the largest US based mask company and he explained how it's impossible to meet the demand right now and explains the reasons why. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-are-made-in-america-to-deal-with-coronavirus


According to USA Today and LA Times we were supposed to have 3 billion masks in strategic reserve but most were used for H1N1 and never replaced.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> According to USA Today and LA Times we were supposed to have 3 billion masks in strategic reserve but most were used for H1N1 and never replaced.


Three years in office seems like enough time to fix that


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Can't point to a link or study. From wearing one can tell you it gets noticeable harder to breath throu when mask gets particles collecting. What ends up happening is more air is forced around the mask. Indicated by the dust/dirt pattern present when I wear em


That makes total sense. Particles will fill parts of some holes making the remaining holes around the edges smaller.

Moisture from one's breath will serve to do two things: 1.) clog holes 2.) attract and hold particles. Both actions will make it harder to breath through the mask over time.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Three years in office seems like enough time to fix that


Umm, they were taken out in 2009...and the previous administration was warned multiple times to replenish the stock. (I was not going there, but if one insists on the blame game...)


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> That makes total sense. Particles will fill parts of some holes making the remaining holes around the edges smaller.
> 
> Moisture from one's breath will serve to do two things: 1.) clog holes 2.) attract and hold particles. Both actions will make it harder to breath through the mask over time.


Yup. Fit is the other factor. When mask gets more clogged and more efficient as a result. More air is forced around the mask.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Umm, they were taken out in 2009...and the previous administration was warned multiple times to replenish the stock. (I was not going there, but if one insists on the blame game...)


From where is sit your post already went there.
But will concede both statements are true.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Yup. Fit is the other factor. When mask gets more clogged and more efficient as a result. More air is forced around the mask.


Making it less efficient


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Making it less efficient


And disposable


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> From where is sit your post already went there.
> But will concede both statements are true.


I am sorry you feel that way, but it's understandable given I am vocal with a minority (on this site) view on political topics. I thought what I posted was pretty agnostic. One can draw any conclusions they like as to not replacing the masks in 10-11 years. I think it is safe to say that people did not find it a priority.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

It takes someone outside of government, with no financial agenda, to tell the truth:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/08/bil...fore-americans-are-safe-from-coronavirus.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> *It takes someone outside of government, with no financial agenda, to tell the truth:*
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/08/bil...fore-americans-are-safe-from-coronavirus.html


You said it.
LMAO.......
Now you know why he was elected....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I am sorry you feel that way, but it's understandable given I am vocal with a minority (on this site) view on political topics. I thought what I posted was pretty agnostic. One can draw any conclusions they like as to not replacing the masks in 10-11 years. I think it is safe to say that people did not find it a priority.


All good. I like a strong voice, and like seeing what backs it up. 
Plenty of people, governmentally important and otherwise, warned.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Yup. Fit is the other factor. When mask gets more clogged and more efficient as a result. More air is forced around the mask.


LMAO.
A mask with a diaphragm does not force air around the mask due to clogging
A clogged mask is not more efficient, and certainly not due to clogging.
Exhaled water vapor improves the sealing at the interface. The elevated humidity within the mask also acts as a particle trap.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> LMAO.
> A mask with a diaphragm does not force air around the mask due to clogging
> A clogged mask is not more efficient, and certainly not due to clogging.
> Exhaled water vapor improves the sealing at the interface. The elevated humidity within the mask also acts as a particle trap.


Just sharing my person experience with masks. Not surprising you'r a mask expert too.
Its already apparent you cling onto some realities while others elude you, but thanx for posting it again


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Work in a lead refinery where you wear the PPE 8-10 hours a day and submit to blood sampling once a week and you learn fairly quickly.....


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Work in a lead refinery where you wear the PPE 8-10 hours a day and submit to blood sampling once a week and you learn fairly quickly.....


Oh, so you ARE an expert. Shocking Lol
Wow, 40 years at fedex, now 10 years at refineries. Quite a resume'. Don't remember asking for one.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Oh, so you are an expert. Lol
> Wow, 40 years at fedex, now 10 years at refineries. Quite a resume'. Don't remember asking for one.


Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit....
Apparently neither are logic and math.....
You do know the difference between an hour and a year doncha....
You inferred "expert" twice. That mistake is yours, not mine.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit....
> Apparently neither are logic and math.....
> You do know the difference between an hour and a year doncha....


Reading you loud and clear yo, edits and all


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Understanding how PPE works isn’t rocket science.
Difficult for some apparently, but not rocket science.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Understanding how PPE works isn't rocket science.
> Difficult for some apparently, but not rocket science.


Well then how stupid for there to be a discussion on masks that I tried to join. Thanx for joining in and explaining it.

For the sake of what's real, in here and in real world, it is a simple concept. The mask material is made with specific sized openings. The smaller the openings the more effective it is at filtering. As particles get caught in these opening the openings become smaller.
Keep it simple. When the bbq grill has openings too big, more wieners fall through


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Well then how stupid for there to be a discussion on masks that I tried to join. Thanx for joining in and explaining it.


Another false dichotomy.
We aren't limited to "expert" or "stupid" here......


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Another false dichotomy.
> We aren't limited to "expert" or "stupid" here......


Lol
Which one do you claim to be. On every thread. Guess we're not limited to witty neither


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The smaller the openings the more effective it is at filtering. As particles get caught in these opening the openings become smaller.


The filter is at its maximum efficiency before it accumulates material.
That is why they are rated for various applications, some even including replaceable pre-filters.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Lol
> Which one do you claim to be. On every thread. Guess we're not limited to witty neither


Double negative.
Even in Mississippi.
"either".......


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Story Time:

At a local medical clinic, ten of the support staff got together for a movie night in late March. They all work together in a "pod", but at work they keep social distances and wear PPE. 

One of the staff tested positive for COVID-19 one week later. Two weeks later six out of the ten have tested positive COVID-19 and one of the medical providers that they support is presumed infected.

No other staff outside of these eleven have become symptomatic, but it's only a matter of time.

Social isolation means isolation, whether you are at home, at work, or in a public setting.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Excellent point.

And Asymptomatic healthcare workers can exhale through that unfiltered N95 Diaphragm all day long.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> And Asymptomatic healthcare workers can exhale through that unfiltered N95 Diaphragm all day long.


Not necessarily true, neither.
Asymptotic does not mean not infected. Remember, more wieners falling through,


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> You said it.
> LMAO.......
> Now you know why he was elected....


If you really believe The Don had no financial agenda when running for President, and has no financial agenda now, you are even more gullible than you appear to be, and that's in the 90% percentile range.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Not necessarily true, neither.
> Asymptotic does not mean not infected. Remember, more wieners falling through,


You missed the point.
Asymptomatic can exhale the virus through the mask's diaphragm.
That will contribute to spread potential.
Better?
Again, any mask with unfiltered exhale only protects the wearer for the most part.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Story Time:
> 
> At a local medical clinic, ten of the support staff got together for a movie night in late March. They all work together in a "pod", but at work they keep social distances and wear PPE.
> One of the staff tested positive for COVID-19 one week later. Two weeks later six out of the ten have tested positive COVID-19 and one of the medical providers that they support is presumed infected.
> ...


Hosted a party at my house in eastern ny suburb first week in March. Had to be over 70 people, some of them emergency care docs, nurses and other MDs. WHO knew. Really


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You missed the point.
> Asymptomatic can exhale the virus through the mask's diaphragm.
> That will contribute to spread potential.
> Better?


Are you saying we agree?
And why do you keep telling everybody they miss the point?


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

theMeat said:


> Hosted a party at my house in eastern ny suburb first week in March. Had to be over 70 people, some of them emergency care docs, nurses and other MDs. WHO knew. Really


I think we all knew, but did we really know what that knowledge meant?

I think we all went through our own stages of reconciling with the virus and the risks, for each of us the quarantine means something different, so our interpretation determines our choices.

Wife got sick last night ... and so it begins.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> I think we all knew, but did we really know what that knowledge meant?
> 
> I think we all went through our own stages of reconciling with the virus and the risks, for each of us the quarantine means something different, so our interpretation determines our choices.
> 
> Wife got sick last night ... and so it begins.


Wishing you well
Yeah, idk. Remembering the general consensus at the time was the hype was bad, the virus not so much. Over the next coupla weeks that quickly changed, for some.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wife got sick last night ... and so it begins.


Sorry to hear that. Good news for her is that she is in better hands than my wife would be.


----------



## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

rockerc said:


> You are completely wrong. You are a victim of the false news to minimize this thing. You need to stfu and listen and hear what is going on everywhere! You are part of the problem, and your attitudes are helping kill people unnecessarily. I would say to read the stories Honkin has taken the trouble to reference, but you will claim them as being fake clickbait. There are many such however, from all affected countries. Please try to figure out what is REALLY going on, and stop listening to misinformed people who try to make this all about politics or the economy. This is LIFE OR ****ING DEATH FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!!


Does this contradict your statement or am I misinterpreting the NY figures?

Fatalities: 
* %---Age*
93% 50+
83% 60+
63% 70+

*5,424 out of 6,268 (*86.5%*) total fatalities have at least one comorbidity.

So doesn't that assume that only 13.5% of the total fatalities are from healthy individuals?

* Source


----------



## Piloto (Aug 17, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I can't speak for Piloto but when I go on a ride I am staying away from others. Social distancing at it's finest!


Nice to see someone else that gets it. IF I'm going to get this crap, it will be from a run to the grocery store. NOT being 25-50 feet (or more) away from everyone on the bike.

The rest of you, stay in your cave and get diabetes from not doing anything. You can die from that, or heart disease. Just wait, this stay at home crap will drag out through summer and possibly Christmas. Oh, THEN it will be flu season. Better just build a bunker and stay in for a few YEARS.

Good luck to us all.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

matt4x4 said:


> Eat healthy
> pop your multivitamin
> lay off the booze
> work out a little bit


this has pretty much been my mantra for years

and I never have drank, so I don't have to worry about that


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The W.H.O. is a joke, might as well call it C.H.O. China Health Org.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

More on "Vit-a-men D" 

Evidence that Vitamin D Supplementation Could Reduce Risk of Influenza and COVID-19 Infections and Deaths
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/4/988

"To reduce the risk of infection, it is recommended that people at risk of influenza and/or COVID-19 consider taking 10,000 IU/d of vitamin D3 for a few weeks to rapidly raise 25(OH)D concentrations, followed by 5000 IU/d. The goal should be to raise 25(OH)D concentrations above 40-60 ng/mL (100-150 nmol/L)."


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Story Time:
> 
> At a local medical clinic, ten of the support staff got together for a movie night in late March. They all work together in a "pod", but at work they keep social distances and wear PPE.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I would really like to see a study about how they interacted. Did the six all sit next to each other? Did they all mingle before and/or after the movie? Was anyone sneezing? Did they pass food around? Was the host one of the infected? How big was the room?

Surely they did some type of reenactment.


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> #2: a mask will not protect you from getting sick, masks minimize the spread of the virus from a sick person to their environment


Masks will protect you. Many studies have proven it. Nothing it 100% effective except isolation, but a mask is better than nothing. Research has determined that you wearing a mask is about 20 to 30% effective. If the carrier is wearing a mask, that is about 70% effective. If both wear masks, the total over 90% effective.

Maintaining the 6' distance from other coupled with a mask is extremely effective.

Finally, stop picking your nose


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this has pretty much been my mantra for years
> 
> and I never have drank, so I don't have to worry about that


Whoa, whoa, whoa....lay off the booze?

From the NIH
"Alcohol consumption is inversely associated with glycemic control among diabetes patients. ... As glycemic control affects incidence of complications of diabetes, the lower A1C levels associated with moderate alcohol consumption may translate into lower risk for complications."

I don't have diabetes, but I'm not taking any chances!


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> . Perhaps there are clinic trials using both or other criteria driving that, genuinely curious as to why the 95 is the standard?


Because that is what is readily available. I have used N95 masks for years for work. I could always find them and buy them by the case, they were readily available. 
N100 masks were not so easy to procure. Plus there is a cost/benefit factor as well.


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> That's a pretty good read. The longer you wear a N95 the MORE effective it filters, won't hear that on the news cycle. I wonder at what point, besides air/breathing efficiency, is the point of diminishing returns though.


In dusty environments we have to with them every 3 hours.
Sweating is actually a bigger issue, when they get damp from sweat the fibers swell enough to make breathing impossible. Don't wear one when jogging or doing activities that make you sweat.
I have in a pinch recycled them by wearing the same mask a second day when it didn't get visibly dirty the first day, BUT, I found I frequently got sick from that due to bacteria growing on the mask overnight so I stopped that practice.

For the medical field, since dirty is not the issue, they can sterilize the masks and reuse them. There are news reports of that already being done.
But you have to remember, these are designed as disposable units, they are not durable. They were not designed for repeated use.

The solution is for 3M to ramp up production and NOT ship out of country until we have eliminated the shortage here in the US. Sorry Canada, but you need to make your own masks. You can tool up an empty warehouse/factory and start making your own.

There are far more uses in NY than in Canada, so let's keep the masks here where the need is greatest.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> I heard an interesting interview with the CEO of the largest US based mask company and he explained how it's impossible to meet the demand right now and explains the reasons why. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-are-made-in-america-to-deal-with-coronavirus


3M can produce 300 million per month (That's a staggering number). So it will take 3 or 4 months to satisfy demand in the US IF they don't ship any out of country until the demand is met.


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Three years in office seems like enough time to fix that


3 years is not enough time to fix everything done wrong the previous 8 years.

I'm sure there are much more pressing issues for a President than for him to personally check the number of items in strategic reserve.

Cuomo had a chance to stock up and 4 years ago on medical equipment and chose to devise a plan on how to ration it instead. (Google it).

Let's not play the political game of pointing fingers (OOOH Trump bad blah blah blah)


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

^ Surprise
Minnesota-based 3M said most of the masks it made at its factory in Shanghai had been sold within China even before the outbreak.

Realizing there’s a problem is half the battle 

In three years he defunded the cdc, each year.

“On February 7, the WHO warned about the limited stock of PPE. That same day, the Trump administration announced it was sending 18 tons of masks, gowns and respirators to China.”


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> It takes someone outside of government, with no financial agenda, to tell the truth:
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/08/bil...fore-americans-are-safe-from-coronavirus.html


Seriously???
The guy that owns the company with the patent on the earlier version of this virus is believable?

The trail of this virus was traced back to his company in Canada.
A Chinese woman stole a sample, took it to Wuhan, there is a level 4 military bio lab in Wuhan less than 2 km from the "meat market".
This was not from an animal. This virus doesn't live in any bats, do a little google search. Read the science based articles, not the 2 minute news MSM blurbs.

If you google Bill Gates owns the virus patent, you will find articles showing the lineage as well as a press release reply from his company that acknowledged they own the patent on a 2nd generation of this virus. The generation now is the 4th or 5th due to 
mutations. They claim they are not responsible. Sure, how do we get a 3rd and 4th generation mutation without their 1st and 2nd generations?

There are other articles where the 1st research teams when developing this virus were told not to do it by several prominent scientists. They were opening a Pandora's box.

Bill Gates has been pushing for a pandemic to sell his vaccines.

He is on numerous YouTube videos and you can hear his own words about there are too many people on earth and we need to reduce the population by 50%. Saying that we are past due for a pandemic (setting the stage to be the savior). This guy is not to be trusted.

Google Event 201. Bill Gates in Oct 2019 predicting this pandemic in detail so precise that it can not be coincidence.

Google UN 2030 agenda. Their plans for world depopulation.

Watch Ice Age Farmer on YouTube

He forecast the food shortages last Sept. He showed the data from the farm industry and showed how the government's number were falsified to prevent panic buying. Crop yields were far worse than reported.
He was over 95% accurate on his forecasts. I stocked up then.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Conspiracy nut in da house


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Regarding N95 Vs. FDA approved N95 surgical masks::

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1794572O/surgical-n95-vs-standard-n95-which-to-consider.pdf

https://www.osha.gov/memos/2020-04-...y-protection-and-n95-shortage-due-coronavirus

I'm sure there are many N100 masks, but in the case of the 3M™ Particulate Respirator 8233, N100, that mask has not been FDA approved.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Conspiracy nut in da house


For sure. Here's a new article tracing the virus genome.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/science/new-york-coronavirus-cases-europe-genomes.html


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Conspiracy nut in da house


Didn't read everything he said buuuut...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...cine-now-cause-more-paralysis-than-wild-polio

Same in Congo, Afghanistan, and the Philippines

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

A/C in Az said:


> 3 years is not enough time to fix everything done wrong the previous 8 years.
> 
> I'm sure there are much more pressing issues for a President than for him to personally check the number of items in strategic reserve.
> 
> ...


Horse ****


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> ^ Surprise
> Minnesota-based 3M said most of the masks it made at its factory in Shanghai had been sold within China even before the outbreak.
> 
> Realizing there's a problem is half the battle
> ...


Sorry, the CDC was not defunded any more in the last 3 years than it was in the previous 8. Again with the blame game? This has some interesting charts for you:

https://www.cato.org/blog/coronavirus-nih/cdc-funding

As far as sending masks and equipment to China, at that time and as late as February 21st the WHO thought the outbreak could be contained. You can scroll through the WHO timeline here: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/events-as-they-happen

Now a quiz:

Q: Sending materials to help the area that needed them most sounds like:

a.) a humanitarian measure that most would support
b.) the actions of a nationalistic xenophobe

Has the response been perfect in the US? No. Has the response anywhere been perfect? No.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Sorry, the CDC was not defunded any more in the last 3 years than it was in the previous 8. Again with the blame game? This has some interesting charts for you:
> 
> https://www.cato.org/blog/coronavirus-nih/cdc-funding
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll play
Let's first point out that the first link you posted states ppl use this a political football, and you picked up the ball.
Op AC brought up Trump. I responded. If you want to take what blame is in our current prez and put it on former, that's a good plan, take comfort wherever you can get it. Shall we look back to bush jr?
Op AC made a point of saying US would be ok in a few months, as far as masks, if we kept them all to ourselves. Which is funny given how much of what we get is from China, regardless of where the company is based. Then pointed out that prez gave masks, that we need, to China.
For your quiz. I pick a). Except given trumps record think it was motivated by corporate and political favors, and not ppls well being. Even thou those ppl will eventually infect/effect our ppl.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Political tainting of reason......

The greatest confirmation bias recently is overblown doomsday projections with the integral fallback position of “It’s only better because you followed my leadership. Now give me more control over your daily life”......
Rationalization into Slavery......
Castro was the biggest, most successful Capitalist Cuba ever had.....


----------



## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

A/C in Az said:


> 3 years is not enough time to fix everything done wrong the previous 8 years...Let's not play the political game of pointing fingers...


Um...duh? Trump is a shitty human being. Even if he were a good leader with a constructive agenda (and he is not) he would still be a shitty human being.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Political tainting of reason......
> 
> The greatest confirmation bias recently is overblown doomsday projections with the integral fallback position of "It's only better because you followed my leadership. Now give me more control over your daily life"......
> Rationalization into Slavery......
> Castro was the biggest, most successful Capitalist Cuba ever had.....


If you cut down on spin, you will get more traction


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> If you cut down on spin, you will get more traction


Not worried about spin.
Have no stake in it.
Not a herd animal.
Minimally affected by all of this so far.
TP, Ammo,Guns,Groceries, Gas, Masks, Keeping Busy, Income, Job, social distancing, healthcare, getting along with family.
All non issues for me.
Simple results oriented experience.
Drive your car any way you please.
I manage mine.
You manage yours.

This forum thing is entertainment for me, not tent evangelism.....

Lots of teachable moments. 
Numbers of teachable students?

Frame and wire it any way you like.
l am well acquainted with what works because I fixed my own mistakes along the way, and there is much of that behind me now.


----------



## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

*Inaccurate modeling*



MSU Alum said:


> Bingo!
> 5 days ahead is hard.....50 years ahead is easy.


Scary how different and inaccurate the models are/were.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Not worried about spin.
> Have no stake in it.
> Not a herd animal.
> Minimally affected by all of this so far.
> ...


So much intellectual dishonesty here ^ it's oddly impressive. You're not fooling anyone. You're usually better at hiding you're not motivated by butt hurt thou. 
Gonna have to change your name, oz, the curtain has been pulled.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A/C in Az said:


> Masks will protect you. Many studies have proven it. Nothing it 100% effective except isolation, but a mask is better than nothing. Research has determined that you wearing a mask is about 20 to 30% effective. If the carrier is wearing a mask, that is about 70% effective. If both wear masks, the total over 90% effective.
> 
> Maintaining the 6' distance from other coupled with a mask is extremely effective.
> 
> Finally, stop picking your nose


Not really, think about how small a virus is and how it moves around in the air.

You would need a full gown and hood to prevent the virus from getting into your eyes, nose, or mouth.

This ^ is why medical providers are getting sick even with good protective gear.

So sure, wear a mask, it won't hurt, but social distancing to reduce exposure is the mainstay.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Gonna have to change your name, oz, the curtain has been pulled.


Well now Meat, let's have a look at the Man behind the curtain.....






It isn't the Man behind the curtain that had the problem.
It is those dreamers lacking adequate self confidence born of work and life experience, who craved and relied on a fantastic illusion of placing their personal responsibility upon others.

Teachable Moment.
We all come to the end of our Yellow Brick Road, some sooner, some later.
YMMV.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Well now Meat, let's have a look at the Man behind the curtain.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, and some have already come to the end of there yellow brick road, as everyone gets a peek behind your curtain. Plenty of proof of your illusions, and your mistakes, and not learning from them, right here on a single thread
Love that movie. Talk about fear. Don't be afraid to dream in color


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

You guys need to go ride. (Alone)
You'll thank me later.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Yup, and some have already come to the end of there yellow brick road, as everyone gets a peek behind your curtain. Plenty of proof of your illusions, and your mistakes, and not learning from them, right here on a single thread


Perfect example right their.

Like I said, entertainment.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Perfect example right their.
> 
> Like I said, entertainment.


The ole humor ploy. When all else fails, and it did


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Shark said:


> You guys need to go ride. (Alone)
> You'll thank me later.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Already been once. Weather is great down here, another ride this evening.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> The ole humor ploy. When all else fails, and it did


Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery notwithstanding,
now it's just getting tedious....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Shark said:


> You guys need to go ride. (Alone)
> You'll thank me later.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Been out everyday, thanx. Today have rain and wind like crazy. But I stooped at bakery yesterday on my way home, all good


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> But I stooped at bakery yesterday on my way home, all good


Try raising handlebars.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Try raising handlebars.....


Handlebars fine. Like leaning forward


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Handlebars fine. Like leaning forward


Just thought it might help with that stoop.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Just thought it might help with that stoop.....


More dishonesty, or humor ploy?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mississippi has its ventilators.....

Dr. Charles Robertson, a UMMC pediatric anesthesiologist and the mastermind behind the idea, said he set out to make the "absolute simplest ventilator we can build with parts available in any city, you don't need special tools to put together and can be done quickly as the need arises."
Made with "primarily a garden hose, a lamp timer and electronic valve," the ventilator, named the Robertson Ventilator, for less than $100, can be assembled in approximately 20 to 30 minutes, meaning a dedicated team of four to five could produce nearly 100 in a day if needed, he said. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-fancy-works-mississippi-doctor-012120379.html


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Mississippi has its ventilators.....


Looking down your nose, or saying it's good?


----------



## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

A/C in Az said:


> In dusty environments we have to with them every 3 hours.
> Sweating is actually a bigger issue, when they get damp from sweat the fibers swell enough to make breathing impossible. Don't wear one when jogging or doing activities that make you sweat.
> I have in a pinch recycled them by wearing the same mask a second day when it didn't get visibly dirty the first day, BUT, I found I frequently got sick from that due to bacteria growing on the mask overnight so I stopped that practice.
> 
> ...


You do realize that 3M gets most of the raw materials (cedar pulp) from Canada? Lucky for you guys our government has no plans to stop supplying it to you.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

MSU Alum said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa....lay off the booze?
> 
> From the NIH
> "Alcohol consumption is inversely associated with glycemic control among diabetes patients. ... As glycemic control affects incidence of complications of diabetes, the lower A1C levels associated with moderate alcohol consumption may translate into lower risk for complications."
> ...


I like the tack of your jibe.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A/C in Az said:


> 3 years is not enough time to fix everything done wrong the previous 8 years.)


Hmm, I seem to remember a certain group of people saying that was plenty enough time around 2011 or so.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Well I never did get my shovel.....
Da Man promised all us middle class workers shovels......


----------



## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

I used to enjoy the fifty+ forum. Not so much anymore.

At 56 years old, I certainly qualify. This thread on the coronavirus makes me feel like I don't fit.

Here is what I see. The same group of people go back and forth all f-ing day long. I mean really? There is almost zero useful information in this thread. The few times a post is written by an actual health care worker, that person is often ridiculed.

Here is my mistake. I obviously thought that this age group would be more circumspect, deliberative, and could exercise some level restraint. Guess I was wrong. Based entirely on this thread, this place seems to be made up of crotchety old dudes whose need to be right exceeds their intellectual capacities.

Now get back to your bickering. (And go wash your hands, old man!)


----------



## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Three years in office seems like enough time to fix that


Ok, I'll play. H1N1 was in 2009. Trump was probably on The Apprentice. 2016 - 2009 = 7 years. How about the dumba$$ who depleted the supply be held responsible for not replenishing. After all, 7 years seems like a reasonable amount of time. For the love of God this endless nonsense is insufferable.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Grodyman said:


> Ok, I'll play. H1N1 was in 2009. Trump was probably on The Apprentice. 2016 - 2009 = 7 years. How about the dumba$$ who depleted the supply be held responsible for not replenishing. After all, 7 years seems like a reasonable amount of time. For the love of God this endless nonsense is insufferable.


Who depleted what, exactly? Please cite a source.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> Ok, I'll play. H1N1 was in 2009. Trump was probably on The Apprentice. 2016 - 2009 = 7 years. How about the dumba$$ who depleted the supply be held responsible for not replenishing. After all, 7 years seems like a reasonable amount of time. For the love of God this endless nonsense is insufferable.


Yup, nonsense 
Budget figures going back to 2009 show overall funding for the stockpile dropped to its lowest in 2013, to about $477 million. Allocations have grown steadily since then to a 2020 budget of $705 million.

And there's this






Talk is cheap, but hard to argue it didn't happen


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Shark said:


> You guys need to go ride. (Alone)


More like have them group ride.


----------



## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Hospitals across Canada are leading a research effort examining potential treatments for COVID-19 as part of the Solidarity Trial, a multinational initiative being coordinated by the World Health Organization (WHO) and supported by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR). My hospital is part of the lead global collaboration, the goal of the Solidarity Trial is to compare the safety and effectiveness of different drugs and drug combinations in treating patients who are hospitalized with COVID-19.

Patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 at one of 20 participating hospitals will be eligible for the trial, known as CATCO (Canadian Treatments for COVID-19). The trial will start by evaluating lopinavir-ritonavir, a combination of antiviral agents also used in treatment of HIV, compared with optimized supportive care. Other medications - an antiviral remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine - will be added shortly thereafter.

The combination of medications have shown promise in pre-clinical work, and we've already started enrolling patients. Results from the trial will provide clinicians with evidence-based research on which drugs can be used to treat the virus in a way that is safe for patients. Current treatment options for COVID-19 are limited to providing supportive care, such as ventilators.

Data collected from participating hospitals will be submitted to a central repository managed by the WHO. Ultimately, the Solidarity Trial will enroll thousands of patients from dozens of countries.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

theMeat said:


> Talk is cheap, but hard to argue it didn't happen


This adds a little texture to some the budgetary fights during this time:

https://www.propublica.org/article/us-emergency-medical-stockpile-funding-unprepared-coronavirus


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wife got sick last night ... and so it begins.


Sorry to hear this. How is she today? More insight?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> Hospitals across Canada are leading a research effort examining potential treatments for COVID-19 as part of the Solidarity Trial, a multinational initiative being coordinated by the World Health Organization (WHO) and supported by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR). My hospital is part of the lead global collaboration, the goal of the Solidarity Trial is to compare the safety and effectiveness of different drugs and drug combinations in treating patients who are hospitalized with COVID-19.
> 
> Patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 at one of 20 participating hospitals will be eligible for the trial, known as CATCO (Canadian Treatments for COVID-19). The trial will start by evaluating lopinavir-ritonavir, a combination of antiviral agents also used in treatment of HIV, compared with optimized supportive care. Other medications - an antiviral remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine - will be added shortly thereafter.
> 
> ...


Good stuff. Thanx for sharing. Especially like the attachment. Stay safe. Round here nurses getting infected lots.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Mississippi has it's ventilators





theMeat said:


> Looking down your nose, or saying it's good?


Good to see you're someone who has the courage of his convictions too


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Ozymandias or...*

The Great Anthropocene Darwinian Consumer Reset,

the " Big Pigs " are at the trough,

the " Fox " is in the hen house,

the only " Question " left is...

who gets the " Last " bite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

UpTheAnte said:


> The Great Anthropocene Darwinian Consumer Reset,
> 
> the " Big Pigs " are at the trough,
> 
> ...


Interesting 
Think if I had to use one word to explain this event across the board, it would be "reset"


----------



## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

Sweden has been doing what I wanted to do 3 weeks ago.. and it isn't great.... but it isn't any worse than anyplace else it seems...

keeps stuff open / and don't be stupid... would be better than 4 out of 5 jobs now affected by this.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europe/sweden-lockdown-turmp-intl/index.html



> But the Swedish government is confident its policy can work. Foreign Minister Ann Linde told Swedish TV on Wednesday that Trump was "factually wrong" to suggest that Sweden was following the "herd immunity" theory -- of letting enough people catch the virus while protecting the vulnerable, meaning a country's population builds up immunity against the disease.
> 
> Sweden's strategy, she said, was: "No lockdown and we rely very much on people taking responsibility themselves."
> The country's state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, also pushed back against Trump's criticism that Sweden was doing badly. "I think Sweden is doing okay," he told CNN affiliate Expressen. "It's producing quality results the same way it's always done. So far Swedish health care is handling this pandemic in a fantastic way."


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

theMeat said:


> Interesting
> Think if I had to use one word to explain this event across the board, it would be "reset"


this whole thing should be a reset for us all....sadly, I don' think it will be...too many people will refuse to believe that they are the problem. That the way we live is the problem...too close together; over taxing resources at all levels; ignoring science for comfort; taking and not giving; thinking "me" instead of "we"

...let the usual ones begin the flaming


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The hospital staff should be getting danger pay. I read a headline on the news the other day, stating something along the lines of can a worker refuse to work because of health concerns. Those that would refuse still be heroes because they are in the caring industry, hence a free coffee at McDonalds.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

atarione said:


> Sweden has been doing what I wanted to do 3 weeks ago.. and it isn't great.... but it isn't any worse than anyplace else it seems...
> 
> keeps stuff open / and don't be stupid... would be better than 4 out of 5 jobs now affected by this.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europe/sweden-lockdown-turmp-intl/index.html


Definitely interesting and gutsy. Looking back will prove informative. Herd immunity looks to be a quicker road to getting past the threat, short of vaccine or...


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

cyclelicious said:


> Hospitals across Canada are leading a research effort examining potential treatments for COVID-19 as part of the Solidarity Trial, a multinational initiative being coordinated by the World Health Organization (WHO) and supported by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR). My hospital is part of the lead global collaboration, the goal of the Solidarity Trial is to compare the safety and effectiveness of different drugs and drug combinations in treating patients who are hospitalized with COVID-19.
> 
> Patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 at one of 20 participating hospitals will be eligible for the trial, known as CATCO (Canadian Treatments for COVID-19). The trial will start by evaluating lopinavir-ritonavir, a combination of antiviral agents also used in treatment of HIV, compared with optimized supportive care. Other medications - an antiviral remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine - will be added shortly thereafter.
> 
> ...


weird to see just the top half of your face !! 

be safe girl!! Same to Chris!!

That work all sounds great. Sadly, down here, we are now being told that the WHO is evil, and to blame for all of this mess...most people (hopefully) are just laughing that off.


----------



## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

theMeat said:


> Definitely interesting and gutsy. Looking back will prove informative. Herd immunity looks to be a quicker road to getting past the threat, short of vaccine or...


I think they will come out better than the rest of us... plus they will have the advantage of more people with antibodies probably... and they will have a not completely jacked up economy.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

atarione said:


> I think they will come out better than the rest of us... plus they will have the advantage of more people with antibodies probably... and they will have a not completely jacked up economy.


All good points. Time will tell. Length of immunity also uncertain at this time


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Sadly, down here, we are now being told that the WHO is evil, and to blame for all of this mess...most people (hopefully) are just laughing that off.


That is a gross distortion.
You might want to compare U.S. assessed and freely donated dollars to Canada's donations before making such foolishly uninformed comments.
*The Canadian total was a little over 41 Million in 2017, U.S. total was over 500 Million for the same period.*


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> That is a gross distortion.
> You might want to compare U.S. assessed and freely donated dollars to Canada's donations before making such foolishly uninformed comments.


More moving targets. Talk about distortion. Op didn't mention a word about funding. Although fox does a lot.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this whole thing should be a reset for us all....sadly, I don' think it will be...too many people will refuse to believe that they are the problem. That the way we live is the problem...too close together; over taxing resources at all levels; ignoring science for comfort; taking and not giving; thinking "me" instead of "we"
> 
> ...let the usual ones begin the flaming


How much or if at all things will change can be debated. No doubt this will be a lesson for the planet, and common shared experience. That has to produce more good than bad or we'r all doomed. Not saying that for drama, like omg we're all doomed/dead. But what a shame if this doesn't highlight priorities


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this whole thing should be a reset for us all....sadly, I don' think it will be...too many people will refuse to believe that they are the problem. That the way we live is the problem...too close together; over taxing resources at all levels; ignoring science for comfort; taking and not giving; thinking "me" instead of "we"
> 
> ...let the usual ones begin the flaming


No flames from me!


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Definitely interesting and gutsy. Looking back will prove informative. Herd immunity looks to be a quicker road to getting past the threat, short of vaccine or...


The UK toyed with that and it didn't work out too well for them...


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc said:


> The UK toyed with that and it didn't work out too well for them...


We'll see. Sweden nothing like uk


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

theMeat said:


> We'll see. Sweden nothing like uk


I fully agree. Swedish people have a great deal more social responsibility than the Brits. I have spent a lot of time in both places.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockerc said:


> I fully agree. Swedish people have a great deal more social responsibility than the Brits. I have spent a lot of time in both places.


Yeah. Not going to pretend to know if it will work. If so, think Sweden be a good, maybe best, place for it to work. Meaning a good chance for it to work there, as compared


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

SteveF said:


> Um...duh? Trump is a shitty human being. Even if he were a good leader with a constructive agenda (and he is not) he would still be a shitty human being.


And you know him personally how?

I certainly do not like his style, but cannot say that makes him a "shitty human being". Most, myself included, thought Bill Cosby was a respectable human. I expect history and God will be the ultimate judges.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

rockerc said:


> I fully agree. Swedish people have a great deal more social responsibility than the Brits. I have spent a lot of time in both places.


Maybe an other factor is a healthy population. Most do outdoors activities regularly. I remember about 40 years ago their 65 years old was like our canadian 40 YO so they launched a program to get us to be active.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> And you know him personally how?
> 
> I certainly do not like his style, but cannot say that makes him a "shitty human being". Most, myself included, thought Bill Cosby was a respectable human. I expect history and God will be the ultimate judges.


Being a narcissist and a pathological liar is enough for me, I guess everyone has their own standards though.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> Hospitals across Canada are leading a research effort examining potential treatments for COVID-19 as part of the Solidarity Trial, a multinational initiative being coordinated by the World Health Organization (WHO) and supported by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR). My hospital is part of the lead global collaboration, the goal of the Solidarity Trial is to compare the safety and effectiveness of different drugs and drug combinations in treating patients who are hospitalized with COVID-19.
> 
> Patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 at one of 20 participating hospitals will be eligible for the trial, known as CATCO (Canadian Treatments for COVID-19). The trial will start by evaluating lopinavir-ritonavir, a combination of antiviral agents also used in treatment of HIV, compared with optimized supportive care. Other medications - an antiviral remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine - will be added shortly thereafter.
> 
> ...


All the research is great and needed.

I am glad to see that red tape is being cut here to allow for quicker trials.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Being a narcissist and a pathological liar is enough for me, I guess everyone has their own standards though.


Barry is a narcissist and actually won an award for lying. So...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Barry is a narcissist and actually won an award for lying. So...


Maybe, but they're in completely different leagues, one is all-star pro and the other is in pee-wee league. All others bow down under capt T.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Deleted.


----------



## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this whole thing should be a reset for us all....sadly, I don' think it will be...too many people will refuse to believe that they are the problem. That the way we live is the problem...too close together; over taxing resources at all levels; ignoring science for comfort; taking and not giving; thinking "me" instead of "we"
> 
> ...let the usual ones begin the flaming


It's a suggestion to alter our lifestyle for sure.

We need to focus on living, working and farming on a local level. We need an economic system that doesn't require unending growth. We need to question the value of all of the unending strip malls and question what jobs actually provide value to society. We should provide a basic income and health care to those who don't feel like working or are unemployed, because we can't have 10 billion people all working in the context of our current modern economy. We could put more value on art and adding beauty to our lives rather than adding more garbage to the landfills... We could value time with family and being outdoors as much as we value working long hours. We could think more about sustainable solutions to our routine lives such as eliminating single use plastic, LED bulbs with 50k hour lifespans but using the cheapest capacitors with 1000 hour lifespans, etc.


----------



## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

In2falling said:


> Black people are overwhelmingly dying from coronavirus in cities across the US
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-black-people-die-major-cities/2961323001/
> 
> Vitamin D and African Americans
> ...


How about poverty, lack of medical access. Also, the African American community has the problems associated with poverty like obesity, diabetes, and heart problems. Obesity has been noted as the number one risk factor. I think a better comparison than black deaths vs white deaths would be to compare subsets of both groups with similar incomes and similar locations.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I am glad to see that red tape is being cut here to allow for quicker trials.


Don't know bout Canada but in states docs feel pretty free to conduct trials


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Deleted.


Chicken 🐓


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Definitely interesting and gutsy. Looking back will prove informative. Herd immunity looks to be a quicker road to getting past the threat, short of vaccine or...


easier to do when your whole country is scarcely more populous than NYC.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> easier to do when your whole country is scarcely more populous than NYC.


And a better chance at working because of a lot more trust of, and between, people and gov


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Carl Mega said:


> Sorry to hear this. How is she today? More insight?


Not too bad, tired, fever gone, no respiratory issues, headache and vomiting resolves, still waiting on the test to come back, but it's kinda assumed she has the virus because half the clinic has tested positive.

Watch for false negatives.

I'm fine, just got done with a long ride.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Chicken ?


buk, buk...

Nailed it.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

theMeat said:


> And a better chance at working because of a lot more trust of, and between, people and gov


Is it trust in gov or just being considerate? It was almost as busy on the roads today as a normal pre-covid work day. I had to wait and wait to cross roads on the bike trail. I think people heard "curve may be flattening" and they went out to celebrate


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Is it trust in gov or just being considerate? It was almost as busy on the roads today as a normal pre-covid work day. I had to wait and wait to cross roads on the bike trail. I think people heard "curve may be flattening" and they went out to celebrate


Think nicer weather will drive ppl out for sure.
Can see why you'd break it down to consideration, since it comes down to that. Except trust plays it's role too. When you get mixed messages like it will disappear, Hydroxychloroquine is safe, now hear it won't be long not only inspire confusion, but mistrust


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

beastmaster said:


> I used to enjoy the fifty+ forum. Not so much anymore.
> 
> At 56 years old, I certainly qualify. This on the coronavirus that makes me feel like I don't fit.
> 
> ...


Well said! I am sure tired of the same few nitwits nattering at each other and providing no useful information whatsoever. Is there a way to block these jerks so I never need to hear from them again? Edit: got it. That's much better!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

If you can’t ignore it on your own you could use the ignore feature


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Not too bad, tired, fever gone, no respiratory issues, headache and vomiting resolves, still waiting on the test to come back, but it's kinda assumed she has the virus because half the clinic has tested positive.
> 
> Watch for false negatives.
> 
> I'm fine, just got done with a long ride.


Glad to hear you are both doing ok Ben. So much more positive than the garbage others are spewing in this thread.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Let me say that I'm glad to hear the Nurse Ben's wife seems to be doing better.

Now, let me say a few words about mathematical models: First, the model can't be any better than the data that goes in. The people making the models know this. This is why they will update their models when new data becomes available. If we ever took the time to read the small print instead of just the headline numbers, you would read the assumptions that went into the model, and above all, you would LOOK AT ERROR BARS AND 95% CONFIDENCE INTERVALS, not just the mean/median projections. The model that is used most at this point is the IHME model led out of the University of Washington: COVID-19 resources | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. That the worst case scenario hasn't happened is the result of having more/better data to feed into the model, of the fact that the conditions of the "experiment" are changing (deliberately) over the course of the experiment, i.e. social distancing measures are continually being refined and increased. Assumptions about these measures were incorporated into the model from the beginning, but the exact nature of how they were implemented in the 50 states, thousands of counties, tens of thousands of municipalities in the US, were understandably hard to estimate. Did the modelers know which date the governor of Georgia would issue a stay at home order? No, of course not. Don't blame the modelers for this.

With all of this said, the models have been extremely useful in guiding policy and understanding mitigation measures. The original Imperial College London model prediction up to 2 million deaths (or so) was not wrong: that number of deaths (within confidence intervals) was what you could expect if you took no mitigation measures. The fact is that this virus is more infectious than seasonal influenza and more lethal. If we had done nothing extraordinary and just toughed it out (i.e. as with normal seasonal influenza), then we would have seen tremendous morbidity and mortality in the range predicted by the Imperial College model several weeks ago. But that isn't what happened: instead, we reacted to the predictions, took measures, and now the trend of the IHME model mean/median estimate is downward, from 200K to 100K to now about 60K deaths in the US through August. This is not a failure of the modeling, but rather a reflection of a successful effort to CHANGE the parameters of the model (i.e. effective R0 value) through policy.

The anti-intellectual streak that permeates America these days is really discouraging. We like to think of ourselves as a can-do society, and point to all of the ways that the US has led the world over the past 150 years or so. The fact is that a large part of this (not all, but a large part) was due to a spirit of experimentation, embracing the scientific method, and being able to learn from the prior work of earlier investigators. Here's a trivial illustration for you to think about: we all ride bikes, right? When you get on your carbon fiber bike, do you publicly scorn the people who designed and manufactured your bike? They used finite-element analyisis techniques to design the frame and components, incorporated knowledge of polymer chemistry and material properties, employed sophisticated manufacturing techniques, and then used statistical sampling during manufacturing to ensure quality control. At the end of this, do you turn around and say "these experts, they got it wrong, this frame turned out way heavier than it had to be. Experts, sheesh."

The fact is, if the American public had a simple understanding of the function y = exp(x), then nobody would have had to be convinced of the wisdom of social distancing, and the sooner you implemented it, the less ornery it would have been. Government officials wouldn't have said "well, let's wait a couple of weeks and see if it gets really bad before we take any serious measures." So it looks now as if we will have around 60K deaths in the US through the first wave in August, and this is way better than it could have been. But it's many thousands of deaths, and probably, literally trillions of dollars, worse than it should have been if we, as a society, actually listened to experts. The sick thing is, when an expert gives you information and says "here, do this slightly uncomfortable thing now, and it will prevent a really bad thing from happening later," we usually do one of two things: either we ignore the expert, and let the bad thing happen, or we grudgingly listen to the expert (maybe we were encouraged or even forced in some way to listen), and then when the bad thing doesn't happen, we say "see, nothing bad happened to me, the expert didn't know what he was talking about."

I'll say one more thing: it probably is more complicated now than it used to be, because there is a genuine problem of having a bunch of false experts out there on Facebook and What's App spreading all sorts of theories. I'm saddened that so many people in this country have become so disconnected from what gave them the standard of living that we enjoy, i.e. embrace of the scientific method, building on the learning of workers who came before, intellectual rigor. And street smarts. Does someone have an agenda in promoting his theory? Does your expert have a track record of being willing to change his theory to incorporate new observations, or does your expert reject observations and dig in on his theory? What does your expert have to gain from having you believe in his theory? People of all political viewpoints can be right, but the facts, the data, ultimately must be respected. Many people are simply disconnected from facts now. A virus is not biased or political: a virus does not care what you think, it cannot be swayed by rhetoric. Fighting a viral pandemic requires a rigorous acknowledgment of fact, and rigorous application of the scientific method. Conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism don't help, and we're going to learn this, or relearn this, over the coming months.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm fine, just got done with a long ride.




Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The models for 60,000 deaths in the USA due to this situation are totally wrong.
1,000 is top.
Over that is due to democrats doctors falsely reporting.
Over that is due to democrats committing suicide to beat tromp.
Over that is due to democrats journalists telling lies.
Only D Orange master can lie about croud size.
Only D Orange master can lie about numbers of deaths.
Only D Orange master can lie about cause of deaths.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

^Moderators: please block this guy. At best the posts are useless and non value adding to anyone, mostly just It’s truly an inflammatory. 20% of this thread is helpful, please delete the rest which is extreme political and nonsensical rantings of a handful of posters whose content is easily identified as described above.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Think nicer weather will drive ppl out for sure.
> Can see why you'd break it down to consideration, since it comes down to that. Except trust plays it's role too. When you get mixed messages like it will disappear, Hydroxychloroquine is safe, now hear it won't be long not only inspire confusion, but mistrust


Government cant handle anything properly. They want to be voted back into office and keep on getting paid off by big corporations.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

That's hardly surprising, especially if they don't have any preexisting conditions that puts them at risk. She would have survived Spanish Flu

*Woman, 107, recovers from coronavirus*

A woman in the Netherlands who is 107 years old is reported to have recovered after acquiring the novel coronavirus, according to accounts in various news organizations and tabloids in the US and Europe.

She is not the only centenarian to have acquired the potentially fatal disease caused by the virus, then recovered and survived.

Cornelia Ras began experiencing COVID-19 symptoms on March 17, the day after her 107th birthday.

Prior to her, the oldest coronavirus survivor whose case has been confirmed and widely documented Bill Lapschies, 104, of the U.S.

From the Daily Beast:



> She and others who attended a church service in the Southwestern region of the Netherlands tested positive for COVID-19, and a dozen people have died since the gathering. Services across the world, one of the most common ways people gather, have been linked to the spread of coronavirus and become a contested topic as Easter approaches.


And from Metro UK:

'We did not expect her to survive this', her niece Maaike de Groot told the newspaper.

'She takes no medicines, still walks well and gets down on her knees every night to thank the Lord. From the looks of it, she will be able to continue to do so.'

Prior to Ras, the oldest widely documented coronavirus survivor was Bill Lapschies, a 104-year-old American.

The UK's oldest surviving paitient is Keith Watson, 101, who left the Alexandra Hospital, Redditch, after beating the illness.

Sauce https://boingboing.net/2020/04/10/woman-107-recovers-from-coro.html


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanx cyclelisious 
You always have a way of spreading light and joy!
Now after all these years hope they finally learned to wash their hands


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

cyclelicious said:


> ...


Who's gonna photoshop her avatar and this pic together? I would, but with all this sheltering at home, hand washing, mask making and grocery sanitizing I'm kinda busy.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This is a cardiologist in New York commenting on the latest study of over 1000 patients in France. 





I haven't been able to find the study yet. I'm sure it's a clinical, or case series, Vs. a trial.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Perfect example right their.
> 
> Like I said, entertainment.


Above it all, as always. On that high, high horse.

And a pseudointellectual comeback in 3... 2...1...


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> Above it all, as always. On that high, high horse.
> 
> And a pseudointellectual comeback in 3... 2...1...


Might take longer than that. Spotted him today, here's a pic


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

MSU Alum said:


> This is a cardiologist in New York commenting on the latest study of over 1000 patients in France.
> I haven't been able to find the study yet. I'm sure it's a clinical, or case series, Vs. a trial.


I hope it is valid news... the study link in the video description was corrupt.

There was a lady (guessing 60s) on the Atlanta news last night, who had been getting progressively worse over the course of several weeks, after testing positive. She called her doctor saying she could barely breathe anymore, and he prescribed her the HCQ. Her doc said if it didn't improve within a couple of hours, she should go to the ER. She said that within hours it had a remarkable effect on her ability to breathe, and she has since recovered.

My father had also seen a similar testimony from a guy in the Tampa area, with a similar story last week. He said he thought he was about to die, and had to convince/demand his doc to prescribe the HCQ, but within hours he also felt completely safe and able to breathe. He said within 12 hours he didn't even feel sick anymore, like night and day difference.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

MSU Alum said:


> This is a cardiologist in New York commenting on the latest study of over 1000 patients in France.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No control group. Surprising lack of adverse events. Some negative results are also appearing from other studies. The good thing here is that good scientists are in fact running well-controlled trials for the use of hydroxychloroquine in combination with azithromycin, and those results will be critiqued and published for all to see the methodology. If it has some benefit relative to the adverse events, then we should all be happy, and if it doesn't work, then we should all be sad. But this should never have been a political issue. Derek Lowe has been covering this issue carefully and accurately (and if you don't like his viewpoint, then you'll see lots of people that share your opinion in his comments sections):

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeli...latest-hydroxychloroquine-data-as-of-april-11


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hopefully the doctors/cardiologists are following basic scientific procedures to achieve helpful data points when posting and commenting on their reports. Some random, well this person recovered on hydrochloride treatment. Not giving details about medical history, pre-existing conditions.

All the models from every where, and such a wide ranging of outcomes.

"The Models" are so wide ranging, every government is doing their own modeling, seems like every univercity is doing their own modeling with such wide ranging outcomes. Doom and Gloom models, without stating the measures taken, which is basically nothing to get the "clicks" and "eyeballs". "Millions will die" well yeah if nothing is done, sure. Church in session, god said so the pastor says. Beach goers congregating on the shores. Couples in stores. Not staying 6' away when out and about. Eating out regularly. Ordering delivery.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

A moment of reflection on tomorrow, Easter 

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem on an ass.
Keep yours at home.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

I check into this thread once every day and it's the same couple of guys bickering back & forth. Try a Zoom meeting and try to oneup each other all day by yourselves. Come on now, please stay on topic or start your own thread to try to out do the other guy.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Dirtrider127 said:


> I check into this thread once every day and it's the same couple of guys bickering back & forth. Try a Zoom meeting and try to oneup each other all day by yourselves. Come on now, please stay on topic or start your own thread to try to out do the other guy.


I apologize


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Wait, are you saying there was a single topic?

I thought this thread was about politics.



Dirtrider127 said:


> I check into this thread once every day and it's the same couple of guys bickering back & forth. Try a Zoom meeting and try to oneup each other all day by yourselves. Come on now, please stay on topic or start your own thread to try to out do the other guy.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I find this very disturbing

https://www.insider.com/viral-video-shows-philadelphia-police-dragging-unmasked-man-off-bus-2020-4

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

WHALENARD said:


> I find this very disturbing
> 
> https://www.insider.com/viral-video-shows-philadelphia-police-dragging-unmasked-man-off-bus-2020-4
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


this is super... it was maybe a week ago these pricks("authorities") told everyone masks don't help...

sigh... this whole deal is a 3 ring circus ran by clowns..


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

atarione said:


> this whole deal is a 3 ring circus ran by clowns..


Well, you got that right!


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)




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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Step right up!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Glad I busted a move to the mountains ten years ago. Fewer circus clowns out there. Time to pay the piper down below... oof!


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> I find this very disturbing
> 
> https://www.insider.com/viral-video-shows-philadelphia-police-dragging-unmasked-man-off-bus-2020-4
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


How do you feel about the fact that as of several days ago, 7 bus drivers and 33 transit workers had died from Covid-19 in NYC alone?

These people are "essential workers" and have to go to work. If they quit, they probably won't get the federal unemployment benefits that are available to almost everyone else (not sure if anyone has tested that yet).

I didn't watch the video so i'm not approving of police brutality if that's what it was. But as someone who used to be a transit driver (when I was forced into it by the loss of a good job) and steward for my shop, I sure as hell think protecting the workers who are putting their lives on the line (for shitty pay in most cases) has to be the first priority. I was lucky as hell to get out just weeks before the virus hit. How do you think all the infected poor people in PA and elsewhere are getting to the doctor?


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> How do you feel about the fact that as of several days ago, 7 bus drivers and 33 transit workers had died from Covid-19 in NYC alone?
> 
> These people are "essential workers" and have to go to work. If they quit, they probably won't get the federal unemployment benefits that are available to almost everyone else (not sure if anyone has tested that yet).
> 
> I didn't watch the video so i'm not approving of police brutality if that's what it was. But as someone who used to be a transit driver (when I was forced into it by the loss of a good job) and steward for my shop, I sure as hell think protecting the workers who are putting their lives on the line (for shitty pay in most cases) has to be the first priority. I was lucky as hell to get out just weeks before the virus hit. How do you think all the infected poor people in PA and elsewhere are getting to the doctor?


And by the same token, getting to test sites when they get up and running more. Testing and contact tracing will become even more important when things start to open up.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Off label use. Avastin and macular degeneration.

Avastin is the trade name for Bevacizumab.
To date, I don't believe it has been proven to be both effective and safe via double blind trial. My understanding is that it is the most used drug to fight age related macular degeneration. 
It's just an interesting perspective. I'm sure there are many other drugs in use today that have similar FDA histories.

As of 2009:

"There is an active and controversial debate about the role of intravitreal bevacizumab versus approved drugs in the treatment of neovascular age-related macular degeneration (AMD). Because bevacizumab was available prior to the launch of ranibizumab, off-label use of the former became widespread and the cancer drug bevacizumab is the most commonly used medication in ophthalmology nowadays."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19476398

As of 2013:

"The off-label use of Avastin is controversial because there are anti-VEGF drugs on the market, authorized for AMD, such as Lucentis. Lucentis is however extremely expensive and costs approximately 50 times more than Avastin. Ophthalmologists did not have the backing of randomized controlled trials, or the blessing of the manufacturer of Avastin."

As of 2019:

"Off-label uses for Avastin
In addition to the uses listed above, Avastin may be used off-label for other uses. Off-label drug use is when a drug that's approved for one use is used for a different one that's not approved. Below are examples of off-label uses for Avastin.

Avastin for age-related macular degeneration"

My understanding is that as of today (I could be wrong) Avastin is still the most widely used ARMD medication and still unproven and not FDA approved except as an off-label drug.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/avastin#uses

It has very serious potential side effects.

The facts surrounding the use of Avastin don't directly support the use of any other drug for any other off-label use, but the history of doctors and patients collaborating to engage unproven strategies is not unusual.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> How do you feel about the fact that as of several days ago, 7 bus drivers and 33 transit workers had died from Covid-19 in NYC alone?
> 
> These people are "essential workers" and have to go to work. If they quit, they probably won't get the federal unemployment benefits that are available to almost everyone else (not sure if anyone has tested that yet).
> 
> I didn't watch the video so i'm not approving of police brutality if that's what it was. But as someone who used to be a transit driver (when I was forced into it by the loss of a good job) and steward for my shop, I sure as hell think protecting the workers who are putting their lives on the line (for shitty pay in most cases) has to be the first priority. I was lucky as hell to get out just weeks before the virus hit. How do you think all the infected poor people in PA and elsewhere are getting to the doctor?


If we were being real about stopping the spread of this virus mass transit wouldn't be running. That's simple reality. Given the lead up on info regarding masks, the fact that real masks are unavailable and cloth/cotton masks provide zero protection crammed in a bus or a train, I'll say again, that video is disturbing.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> How do you feel about the fact that as of several days ago, 7 bus drivers and 33 transit workers had died from Covid-19 in NYC alone?
> 
> These people are "essential workers" and have to go to work. If they quit, they probably won't get the federal unemployment benefits that are available to almost everyone else (not sure if anyone has tested that yet).
> 
> I didn't watch the video so i'm not approving of police brutality if that's what it was. But as someone who used to be a transit driver (when I was forced into it by the loss of a good job) and steward for my shop, I sure as hell think protecting the workers who are putting their lives on the line (for shitty pay in most cases) has to be the first priority. I was lucky as hell to get out just weeks before the virus hit. How do you think all the infected poor people in PA and elsewhere are getting to the doctor?





WHALENARD said:


> If we were being real about stopping the spread of this virus mass transit wouldn't be running. That's simple reality. Given the lead up on info regarding masks, the fact that real masks are unavailable and cloth/cotton masks provide zero protection crammed in a bus or a train, I'll say again, that video is disturbing.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Test, trace, and quarantine 
Test, trace, and quarantine 
For essential workers, and for a path back to 'normal'. 
Or we just wing it as we're pretending not to do now, and hope herd immunity is kind to us.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Pretty much

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> If we were being real about stopping the spread of this virus mass transit wouldn't be running. That's simple reality. Given the lead up on info regarding masks, the fact that real masks are unavailable and cloth/cotton masks provide zero protection crammed in a bus or a train, I'll say again, that video is disturbing.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


 Masks do provide some protection from spreading the virus, they just don't protect the wearer much. That's the point, protect the drivers. As a former driver trust me I'd prefer shutting down but it isn't realistic. Many people have no other way to get around for their essential needs.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Test, trace, and quarantine
> Test, trace, and quarantine
> For essential workers, and for a path back to 'normal'.
> Or we just wing it as we're pretending not to do now, and hope herd immunity is kind to us.





WHALENARD said:


> ^Pretty much
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Right? Would add social distancing is helping keep the curve down, although somewhat at the cost of making it last longer


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Hasn't that been the main point from the start, to spread out the curve over time to prevent overwhelming medical facilities and staff? Spread it out long enough and treatments can improve to the point they save some/many that would have died or been debilitated had they gotten sick sooner.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

^pretty much
After we got past the it will disappear phase


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

theMeat said:


> How much or if at all things will change can be debated. No doubt this will be a lesson for the planet, and common shared experience. That has to produce more good than bad or we'r all doomed. Not saying that for drama, like omg we're all doomed/dead. But what a shame if this doesn't highlight priorities


I am thinking that there will be a small changed demographic, but that for the most part, sheep will keep pushing the machine along when the blocks are off the wheels...



rockerc said:


> No flames from me!


Awesome!! Would not expect less from a rocker!



J.B. Weld said:


> Being a narcissist and a pathological liar is enough for me, I guess everyone has their own standards though.


wait...I thought those were job requirements now



davec113 said:


> It's a suggestion to alter our lifestyle for sure.
> 
> We need to focus on living, working and farming on a local level. We need an economic system that doesn't require unending growth. We need to question the value of all of the unending strip malls and question what jobs actually provide value to society. We should provide a basic income and health care to those who don't feel like working or are unemployed, because we can't have 10 billion people all working in the context of our current modern economy. We could put more value on art and adding beauty to our lives rather than adding more garbage to the landfills... We could value time with family and being outdoors as much as we value working long hours. We could think more about sustainable solutions to our routine lives such as eliminating single use plastic, LED bulbs with 50k hour lifespans but using the cheapest capacitors with 1000 hour lifespans, etc.


agree 100%. Well said. Sadly, this is not "The American Way" because the values you mention above will not allow for mass amounts of profit, posturing, and exploitation.

I have tried to live with the values above my whole life. Also have been made fun of it, but don't care about that...



Cornfield said:


>


somehow, you always find the EXACT right thing to sum up a string of responses!! love it


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Testing would be nice, if they had tests to use.

N95 masks would be nice, if we had N95 masks to use. 
Surgical masks would be nice, if we had surgical masks to use.

Cloth masks prevents the spread from cloth mask user to other people.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> Cloth masks prevents the spread from cloth mask user to other people.


That's debatable. If you can blow through your cloth mask, like blow out a lit match held up to your mouth, you are doing very little to mitigate transmission. Just look at pics of subways and buses then cross reference that with the PPE of health care workers who are getting sick regardless.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> That's debatable. If you can blow through your cloth mask, like blow out a lit match held up to your mouth, you are doing very little to mitigate transmission. Just look at pics of subways and buses then cross reference that with the PPE of health care workers who are getting sick regardless.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


I think he may have meant they "help" to prevent...etc which they do, but sure they are nothing like 100% effective.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The CDC wouldnt be "debatable" by commoners.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockerc said:


> I think he may have meant they "help" to prevent...etc which they do, but sure they are nothing like 100% effective.


I sort of think of it as the difference between being contagious out to 3 feet Vs. out to 6 or 7 feet. Every little improvement helps and adds up.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

"Wearing a surgical mask is compulsory in the Czech Republic. Every citizen has to wear a surgical mask by law throughout the pandemic. 

On March 29, Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis urged US President Donald Trump to adopt the same approach, tweeting: "Mr President, try tackling the virus the Czech way. Wearing a simple cloth mask decreases the spread of the virus by 80 percent."

Sure, the above claim could be exaggerated, but there is no denying it would help if everyone was forced to cover their mouth and nose in public. Making it voluntary is just stupid, and accomplishes very little if everyone isn't doing it. Maybe in another month it will be mandatory. I'd feel a lot better about opening up business again if it were.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

NJ Transit is following suit, mandatory "mask"
Though a scarf would be sufficient.Going to sneeze? who will not sneeze through the scarf.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/10/opinion/its-possible-flatten-curve-too-long/


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

mlx john said:


> https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/10/opinion/its-possible-flatten-curve-too-long/


That's a good read, required reading imo. Everyone should be considering the long game and comprehending how what we're doing now affects what happens later. However, drugs and vaccines do little to curb endemic infectious diseases like the flu.

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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I read somewhere that this coming week is predicted by the epidemiologists in San Diego to be the peak of new reported COVID cases. I see people breaking the basics of social distancing and everything else all over the place ..All's I can say is to stay the course.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Radium said:


> I read somewhere that this coming week is predicted by the epidemiologists in San Diego to be the peak of new reported COVID cases. I see people breaking the basics of social distancing and everything else all over the place ..All's I can say is to stay the course.


Yup, stay the course. 
Here's the latest text update from a friend, er doc

Hey everyone,

Hope all is well to everyone on this chain. I am very excited to let everyone know that the hospital surge at White Plains has definitely slowed down. Even though the media is correct that the number of daily deaths have been at an all time high this is due to mostly elderly patients being on the vent for a long time and inevitably passing away. Overall our hospital numbers are very inline with the worldwide stats. Currently we have the most patients our hospital has ever had ( 315) however our Vent capacity remains at 50 %. Again from the start our administration had the foresight to appropriately plan for COVID and I am glad to say that we are accepting transfers from other hospitals in the area. Since we have slowed down and we are appropriately staffed I have volunteered to work at Mt Sinai to help with their patient surge.

I have been asked a lot of questions. I have also not been able to turn my mind off because for most people COVID is terrifying but from a clinical stand point it is very intriguing. I have gone into more detail than most would like to hear however if you would like to learn more about my own thoughts about the pathophysiology of COVID keep reading!

1. Why is Covid causing difficulty breathing?
- not quite entirely known right now however I can tell you that there is something called ventilation / perfusion mismatch. It takes medical students / residents a long time to understand the difference between ventilating and oxygenating. All of these patients we are seeing are ventilating ( meaning moving air) very well however there is something going on between red blood cells (RBC ) and lung tissue . In multiple patients we are seeing them be " air hungry." Meaning that on the pulse oximeter ( the thing they stick your finger in ) is reading adequate levels of 95 percent or above. I believe this is a falsely elevated number due to the RBC not being able to deliver oxygen. We see this in carbon monoxide poisoning and also methemoglobinemia.

For many people they sound clear upon auscultation and even their chest Xrays (CXR) are clear. The layman should know that radiological evidence lags behind objective clinical significance. That's fancy for saying you can't always diagnose something just by looking at images. There are some people who have clear images however sound terrible so I have placed them on antibiotics and treated them for a typical pneumonia. Multiple facilities are now placing patients on azithromycin / plaquenil for this particular problem. In all honesty I have placed people on these medications with varied results.

2. What should I do if someone i know is intubated? 
- Overall the mortality rate for people who are over the age of 70 with comorbidities ( alot of past medical history ) is extremely high. For our hospital it is 85 percent**which is about the average around the world. The problem with these patients is that they do not have the pulmonary reserve to combat the illness. If you know someone unfortunately in this scenario I would hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

I am sooooo happy to say that I have had a friend's uncle who was 60 years old totally healthy who was intubated and is now extubated. For these particular patients you just NEED TIME. In my previous emails I have talked about a " cytokine storm ." This is where the lungs are having diffuse inflammation and since you cannot oxygenate well you need help of the ventilator to weather the storm. My worst fear for these patients was that weren't giving people the duration of time needed to wait out the storm. I am pretty sure though that most hospitals are giving people adequate time and in those like Elmhurst who are outrageously overwhelmed are probably shipping some of their ventilated patients to other facilities like ours.

At first our ICU was treating a lot of the ventilated patients with ARDS ( acute respiratory distress ) protocol. Meaning they were using high levels of PEEP ( or pressure ) to keep the lungs open and expanded. This was not leading to great outcomes so everyone switched from this tactic to now using a ventilation mode called ACVC ( we could go on for days explaining lung mechanics and physiology but for the cliff note version we will say that this is just delivering a particular set volume.) After using this particular vent setting we are having better outcomes.

Our hospital has set up a facetime IPAD due to the strict no visitor rule in place so you can at least speak to your family during this time.

Their is a lot of new treatment modalities coming out especially plasma treatment. This is state of the art treatment and I will be honest I have not had enough time to speak to colleagues about this however Mt Sinai is performing antibody testing with the hopes of performing plasma treatments. It should be known that hospitals offering these treatments are usually big university medical centers that have the ability to run clinical trials. I am unsure of the politics with the usage of this currently.

3. If i am young 20 - 40 and have Shortness of breath ( SOB)**/ chest pain what should i do?
- I have seen over a thousand patients in this range. Generally speaking you are having SOB due to the virus infiltrating / causing inflammation in your lungs. A little bit of difficult breathing is normal for this disease. If you are having a lot of difficulty I say this to all my patients " there is NO shame in going to the ER." For many people in this range this is the first time of having difficulty with breathing. In a lot of patients this increases your anxiety further perpetuating the problem. In school they use the term " impending doom."**If you have the mental fortitude the best thing for you to do is try and take slow deep breaths and find that peaceful place in your mind. This is easier said then done.

One thing that is working for most people is "proning." This means just laying on your stomach and breathing. This helps because it improves your gas exchange ( from above is the major problem with COVID ) . If you cant lay directly on your stomach try laying on your side. Yes i know this sounds dumb and for most people its uncomfortable but using this technique we have helped save multiple people from being intubated.

You are having chest pain due to something called atelectasis ( squishing of lung ) Alot of patients are complaining of this in the middle of their chest. This squishing of your lung is secondary to the virus collapsing your alveoli ( most extreme distal parts of lung ) .I have performed hundreds of EKG's on patients and they have all been negative for any cardiac issues. In very rare cases is COVID causing myocarditis ( heart inflammation.) I have only heard of one case through all my colleagues.

4. Why are men getting it more?
- I have seen so many NYPD officers who have contracted the virus. I read somewhere that 20 percent of the NYPD is currently infected. My thought process for why men are getting it more is due to social reasons. I just believe that more men work in particular fields like the NYPD that work in close quarters to eachother hence the reason why men are being more affected.

5. Why are people getting kidney damage?
- Generally speaking the majority of people who are getting kidney damage are those with severe COVID pulmonary involvement. Your body has multiple fail safes that are incorporated. When I teach medical students / residents I always tell them that when you have sepsis ( low blood flow leading to organ damage) the body is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. If you have a very low blood pressure you in essence are taking the little blood pressure you have and perfuse your brain / heart / lungs. So the first organ system that gets diverted is your kidneys because they are very resilient. They can take a huge hit and bounce back. The next organ system to fail is usually the liver. Again you shunt blood toward your brain / heart / lungs because you need these to survive and you shunt blood away from your kidneys / liver.

Another mechanism of action that people are looking at is microvascular clotting. Basically small clots which lead to bigger clots over time leading to decrease perfusion to organ systems. Some hospitals are experimenting with more aggressive anti-clotting medications including lovenox / heparin / eliquis . I saw an article about a physician at Mt Sinai using TPA ( this is the clot busting medication we use for people having acute strokes.) Again the thought process of using these medications is for last ditch efforts when you are using everything in your tool box to hopefully get a promising result albeit the results have been mixed.

6. It seems like spanish people are more affected?
- In my patient population I agree with this statement. The best way I can explain this is using breast cancer as an example. If you have the BRCA gene you are predisposed to getting breast cancer. Hence people like Angelina Jolie perform preventative bilateral mastectomies because their risk of getting breast cancer is much higher than the general population.**Currently there are multiple studies which think that the ACE2 receptors are the point of entry for coronavirus. If you have more of these receptors you are at a higher risk of developing a more severe case of COVID.

7.. Can I volunteer to help ? Can we make contributions to the hospital? 
- Unless you have a great understanding of lung mechanics and mechanical ventilation their is little to do. My mother is a retired OR nurse and my father is a breast cancer oncologist. Even though I applaud their bravery for volunteering their services. I can assure you that my hospital is well staffed and from the short time I have been at Mt Sinai they have also geared up for the surge.**I applaud other parts of the country coming to help NYC. I have seen multiple MD's, Nurses, respiratory techs and others from Texas, Arizona, Florida to lend a hand. I have included some information in regards to making a donation to the white plains ER below.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/protect-...m=copy_link-tip&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

Overall we have done such an amazing job of social distancing. I again haven't seen anyone in my family for over 6 weeks which is wild. As everyone knows " you don't know what you have until its gone" or maybe a better line is "you don't know what you have until its temporarily quarantined."***My family has been well protected and its because we implemented a quarantine much earlier than most.**For all of those who are going stir crazy I think this is such a small price to pay for the overall protection of those we love. We have had over 8,000 deaths in NY. My hospital alone had over 20 deaths last night. Please practice patience. The more patient we are the quicker we will be back to normalcy.

My very wise father once told me ." Manny you cannot be a doctor without Patients/patience. GET IT? That's a terrible doctor joke. 

Stay safe everyone,

Manny Xxx MD


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Good stuff Meat, thanks for posting.

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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Seriously???
***the quicker we will be back to normalcy.***
After 9/11 they borrowed trillion$ to wa$te on ridicoulous useless war$
After this the good old same... be back at the mall, $pend... all is fine.
Maybe the next problem people will learn?
Na just $hop GIVE U$ YOUR $$$
ALL of it


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

They wanted oil gas reserves and spread the democratic way. Meanwhile all planes were grounded yet Saudi's had the privilege to fly out of country, back to their homeland with stock piles of donated u.s. firearms from the russia war-era and u.s. trained "militia". That did not turn out to well.

Human Nature is they never learn.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

d365 said:


> "Wearing a surgical mask is compulsory in the Czech Republic. Every citizen has to wear a surgical mask by law throughout the pandemic.
> 
> On March 29, Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis urged US President Donald Trump to adopt the same approach, tweeting: "Mr President, try tackling the virus the Czech way. Wearing a simple cloth mask decreases the spread of the virus by 80 percent."
> 
> Sure, the above claim could be exaggerated, but there is no denying it would help if everyone was forced to cover their mouth and nose in public. Making it voluntary is just stupid, and accomplishes very little if everyone isn't doing it. Maybe in another month it will be mandatory. I'd feel a lot better about opening up business again if it were.


I'm here to tell you that there is *no* way face coverings are going to be made mandatory. ******** (like certain ones on this thread, you know who they are) are going to ignore the order, leading to all kinds of issues. It's Freedumb at its finest.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> I'm here to tell you that there is *no* way face coverings are going to be made mandatory. ******** (like certain ones on this thread, you know who they are) are going to ignore the order, leading to all kinds of issues. It's Freedumb at its finest.


Prejudice is bad


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

matt4x4 said:


> They wanted oil gas reserves and spread the democratic way. Meanwhile all planes were grounded yet Saudi's had the privilege to fly out of country, back to their homeland with stock piles of donated u.s. firearms from the russia war-era and u.s. trained "militia". That did not turn out to well.
> 
> Human Nature is they never learn.


I think people doing that learned.
Scare them with repeated DANGER ALERTS!!!
Get Trillion$$$.
Pretend you saved them.
Oh ya, blame others.
The problem is people are busy trying to pay
all their plastic debts, they just remember a few words
that are repeated daily for months.
They forget about the trillion$$ added to the money owed.
That is a lot on each new foetus.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

theMeat said:


> Prejudice is bad


It isn't prejudice, it would be stereotyping if it was not true, but it absolutely is a fact. There is *no* way Trump would attempt to make facemasks mandatory, because 25 of his followers would vote against him in November. That is the only criteria he appears to use when making critical decisions. As he said himself, he could shoot someone on 5th Ave. and people would still vote for him, but making facemasks mandatory *would* cause 25 of the real whacks to vote Libertarian.

I come from ******* stock, this ain't rocket science.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> It isn't prejudice, it would be stereotyping if it was not true, but it absolutely is a fact. There is *no* way Trump would attempt to make facemasks mandatory, because 25 of his followers would vote against him in November. That is the only criteria he appears to use when making critical decisions. As he said himself, he could shoot someone on 5th Ave. and people would still vote for him, but making facemasks mandatory *would* cause 25 of the real whacks to vote Libertarian.
> 
> I come from ******* stock, this ain't rocket science.


Umm, what you are stating is not "fact", it is supposition at best and indeed is a stereotype. Making a rash generalization about any large group of people is indeed applying a stereotype as there is diversity large groups. Such generalizations are no less moronic when made against people of a political persuasion than they are when made against a race.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> It isn't prejudice, it would be stereotyping if it was not true, but it absolutely is a fact. There is *no* way Trump would attempt to make facemasks mandatory, because 25 of his followers would vote against him in November. That is the only criteria he appears to use when making critical decisions. As he said himself, he could shoot someone on 5th Ave. and people would still vote for him, but making facemasks mandatory *would* cause 25 of the real whacks to vote Libertarian.
> 
> I come from ******* stock, this ain't rocket science.


I agree, prejudice still bad. Political beliefs don't determine whether a person is good or bad, smart or stupid. Plenty of examples of that on both sides. 
Guess I'm more optimistic about what the other side of this looks like. Can share a coupla personal experiences as of late 
-My aunt. 80yo healthy, fit, 'modern', successful, active and smart who gets most of her news from fox. Was running around believing and telling others this virus is nothing, wash your hands and move along. My mom, her sister tried calling my uncle, her husband, to talk some sense into her, didn't work. Called my aunt's doctor, who called my aunt to talk some sense into her, kinda worked. It wasn't until her granddaughter, who is pregnant, called her and told her that she was advised by her gynecologist to separate from her that she started to take precautions. Think that was the first time she felt deceived by her party, prez, and media outlet.
-A friend's dad who is a neighbor to me, staunch Republican who takes every opportunity to jump on a soapbox, has thankfully recovered from covid, it got scary, and has started to changed his tune,
Don't expect this to be the case for everyone. Think ppl that were misled and misinformed who end up loosing loved ones are the most likely to have a reckoning over current events


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> They wanted oil gas reserves and spread the democratic way. Meanwhile all planes were grounded yet Saudi's had the privilege to fly out of country, back to their homeland with stock piles of donated u.s. firearms from the russia war-era and u.s. trained "militia". That did not turn out to well.
> 
> Human Nature is they never learn.


Manipulation of oil and it's value is a control knob. The irony in that is it's subsidized.
Think it's less ppl never learn, more ppl are reactionary.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Umm, what you are stating is not "fact", it is supposition at best and indeed is a stereotype. Making a rash generalization about any large group of people is indeed applying a stereotype as there is diversity large groups. Such generalizations are no less moronic when made against people of a political persuasion than they are when made against a race.


So, ummm, should face coverings be made mandatory?

Yes, this is a test.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

I could not convince my dad to take this seriously, through weeks of pleading. Both he and my step mom are in the very high risk category with age and chronic lung problems. He's college educated, and fiercely republican. He's finally taking more precautions now, but every time we'd talk I'd get all the - it's just hyped liberal news, we don't stop the world for the flu, be gone by spring, they're doing a hell of a job and testing more than anyone - it won't get bad... blah, blah, on and on. Whatever GOP "truth" he is told that week. If Trump told him it's ok to go gather in mass crowds tomorrow, he'd do it without hesitation "for the economy", and most likely blame Obama when he finally gets sick.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

A major portion of fault for widespread initial dismissal lies with the perpetual Cry Wolf Choir TDS over the past 3 years....
People began to blow it off after so many manufactured crises.

Just because some attention seeking child runs around crying “wolf” is no reason to believe there is no wolf.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

OzarkFathom said:


> ...Just because some attention seeking child runs around crying "wolf" is no reason to believe there is no wolf.


and the corollary, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> A major portion of fault for widespread initial dismissal lies with the perpetual Cry Wolf Choir TDS over the past 3 years....
> People began to blow it off after so many manufactured crises.
> 
> Just because some attention seeking child runs around crying "wolf" is no reason to believe there is no wolf.


Newsflash: The "Cry Wolf Choir" has been continually pointing out obvious, real, and dangerous issues with Trump that certain people have continued to ignore. He refuses to accept any criticism, no matter how valid, and reacts like a 4 year old by whining and crying, and then firing, anyone who dares to point out his failures and shortcomings. His latest mental breakdown has resulted in him turning against Dr. Fauci for using science. Predictably, the Faux News crowd who praised Dr. Fauci immediately turned on him with all kinds of BS conspiracy theory nonsense as soon as the Orangautan sent out a tweet.

The "attention seeking child" is in the White House.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Basically i guess people living in the USA should listen to news from around the world.
When you avoid the BIAS FOX and CNN
the USA looks like a very poor country under siege by some guerilla group with someone at the top under constant medication for the last 70 years.
Nothing makes sense if you close your eyes forget about the red tie it sounds like a 2 years old princess, or just about any brat from 2 to 7 years old.
Your country became a joke when others republicans were eliminated and the proof came on day 1 with the *** LARGEST CROWD EVER****
No country or leader is perfect, you are just not part of the top 50 anymore.
Go ride and hope to have an election next nov., we sure hope that happens.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Perfect examples.
Well note the over the top childish name calling, outright lies, and cheap shots at America from a Canadian radical.
TDS.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> So, ummm, should face coverings be made mandatory?
> 
> Yes, this is a test.


It depends were one is. NYC, yep. Hospitals, yep. Nursing homes, yep.

Areas with little population density where social distancing can be maintained, nope. What is clear is that one size does not fit all.

Certainly if someone must go out in public with a cough or other symptoms then they should wear a mask. Mandate for everyone? No.

Whew, I was afraid that "test" might be akin to differential equations...


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Perfect examples.
> Well note the over the top childish name calling, outright lies, and cheap shots at America from a Canadian radical.
> TDS.


A back and forth with a well reasoned person with a differing point of view is a good thing. For the ramblings of a lunatic, the ignore function works well...just sayin.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> It depends were one is. NYC, yep. Hospitals, yep. Nursing homes, yep.
> 
> Areas with little population density where social distancing can be maintained, nope. What is clear is that one size does not fit all.
> 
> Whew, I was afraid that "test" might be akin to differential equations...


I live in an area with less population density than 98% of the US. There is one grocery store for an area of over 100 square miles, and it is so small that three of them would fit in a suburban supermarket. You are proving that people simply can't think their way out of this box. You aren't at risk sitting at home with your family, you are at risk when you interact with other people, and when you go to the only grocery store for 15-20-30 miles in any direction, you are just as exposed as someone in the suburbs. Same applies to restaurants, churches, DMV offices, dentists, doctor's offices, hospitals. The density of exposure is just as bad, if not worse in rural areas, because the facilities are usually much smaller. Why are Gunnison and Eagle Counties in Colorado two of the worst infected areas in the US? Visitors brought the virus, and after they left, it spread like wildfire. Once the virus is in a community, it spreads almost as easily in a rural area as in a city. Only the lack of public transit helps the rural communities.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

That is full of holes.....


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> I live in an area with less population density than 98% of the US. There is one grocery store for an area of over 100 square miles, and it is so small that three of them would fit in a suburban supermarket. You are proving that people simply can't think their way out of this box. You aren't at risk sitting at home with your family, you are at risk when you interact with other people, and when you go to the only grocery store for 15-20-30 miles in any direction, you are just as exposed as someone in the suburbs. Same applies to restaurants, churches, DMV offices, dentists, doctor's offices, hospitals. The density of exposure is just as bad, if not worse in rural areas, because the facilities are usually much smaller. Why are Gunnison and Eagle Counties in Colorado two of the worst infected areas in the US? Visitors brought the virus, and after they left, it spread like wildfire. Once the virus is in a community, it spreads almost as easily in a rural area as in a city. Only the lack of public transit helps the rural communities.


Data does not support your argument. Look around the country. Where are the bulk of the hot spots? Cities. If you go on https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map you can see cases by county.

Why Eagle? Lets see. Do they get many travelers from other areas of the country/world? (I know the answer) Gunnison, seems to have a fair number of cases vs population. It certainly is unusual. One does not mandate for 300+ million people what people in a 17,000 person county might want to do. If it is a local health risk for you, lobby your sheriff or governor...and you certainly can wear a mask if you like. Juneau Wisconsin is a county with 27,000 people and 6 cases. you really want to mandate all those people wear masks? Washburn County with 15,000 people is closer to the size of Gunnison and has ZERO cases. I will stop there as we have 7 counties with zero cases and 40+ with fewer than 10. More than half the counties in Colorado have fewer than 10. https://covid19.colorado.gov/case-data

I live in a fairly populated county with 400k people. We have 209 cases. I avoid public places and have worn a mask in stores near Milwaukee. 25% of people seem to have them on.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Here is a story from the very liberal Christian Science Monitor. Don't let the "Science" in the title scare you.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2020/0413/It-can-t-happen-here.-Coronavirus-hits-rural-America


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

I am very happy to compare my science education to yours if you like. I will confidently wager that you would not be accepted to the school where I got my degree, so knock off your snarky BS. 

Is rural America immune? No. Do they have the same risk factor as big cities? Not even close. Look up infections per 100,000 people. The bulk of places with high infection rates are large population centers.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

For God’s sake don’t mention the political demographic......

Oooooops


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

wow, who is the snarky one? 

of course densely populated areas see higher infection rates at the beginning of an epidemic, but it's the rural communities who get decimated at a later date from a lack of medical resources. I saw an article a month ago talking about just this. the author lives in a midwest town that has a hospital with 25 beds, and one ventilator that serves all the surrounding counties, and was a 100 miles in all directions to a larger city. 

Iceland just released some data, and found that roughly 50% of their positive tests showed no symptoms at the time. At the release they had tested 10% of their population with random testing, not just those feeling sick. 

The best way to keep asymptomatic people from infecting others is if everyone was mandated to wear a mask in public. that's not rocket science.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I will confidently wager that you would not be accepted to the school where I got my degree..


I would not deign to attend any school that would have me as a student.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The numbers have very little meaning. I have and had no symptoms so
maybe i never had it.
Maybe i had it.
Maybe i have it.
Same fot the deaths many were not tested so probably some died from this but will never be counted.
I would totally understand some doctors adding to the total if she/he feels they need more resources in their area. Also different countries have different ways to class the reason of death and some poor countries just do not have the resources.
My province does not have the largest population so others with smaller numbers are probably due to less testing. It is like at half time nobody knows the winner.
What is the added debt per tax payer?


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

d365 -The Iceland test is exactly what epidemiologists at Stanford said a month ago. It is also theorized that California was infected back in December. Both of those facts can be seen as this, while bad, is not as bad as some first thought. 

Sure, let's mandate masks for this disease that is looking to kill 60,000 people. Then next year we can employ the same mandate to save some of the 40,000+ that die from the flu. Why should we not take the same precaution to save them? Masks would be similarly effective in preventing that spread.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> d365 -The Iceland test is exactly what epidemiologists at Stanford said a month ago. It is also theorized that California was infected back in December. Both of those facts can be seen as this, while bad, is not as bad as some first thought.
> 
> Sure, let's mandate masks for this disease that is looking to kill 60,000 people. Then next year we can employ the same mandate to save some of the 40,000+ that die from the flu. Why should we not take the same precaution to save them? Masks would be similarly effective in preventing that spread.


It's projected 60k deaths by August, because ppl were cautious enough to distance. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse, simply and completely because of distancing


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I am very happy to compare my science education to yours if you like. I will confidently wager that you would not be accepted to the school where I got my degree, so knock off your snarky BS.
> 
> Is rural America immune? No. Do they have the same risk factor as big cities? Not even close. Look up infections per 100,000 people. The bulk of places with high infection rates are large population centers.


Yes, the bulk of places with high infection rates are large population centers TODAY.

Did you read the article? Of course not.

I'm guessing U. of Arkansas?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> It's projected 60k deaths by August, because ppl were cautious enough to distance. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse, *simply and completely because of distancing*


That is patently false.
No one can assign the infection rate rise or fall and certainly not the death count, strictly to distancing. 
That is not Science. 
It isn't even logical. 
It is fallacious propaganda.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Sure, let's mandate masks for this disease that is looking to kill 60,000 people. Then next year we can employ the same mandate to save some of the 40,000+ that die from the flu.


I saw a good analogy for describing the pandemic. A burger shop has no problem making 700 burgers a day. It has an issue when one person orders 700 burgers. Those flu deaths are probably spread out during the year. Whereas you have an influx of Covid-19 patients taking up beds, it might mean someone who has a mild heart attack suddenly isn't treated as urgently as the might have been.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Those flu deaths are probably spread out during the year. Whereas you have an influx of Covid-19 patients taking up beds, it might mean someone who has a mild heart attack suddenly isn't treated as urgently as the might have been.


So if we ate right, COVID wouldn't be singled out as such a problem eh.....

Hmmmmmm


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Anybody else using this tracker

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I take about 5 minutes each day and study/break the stats up in different ways. 21% mortality in "cases that had an outcome". One thing I've paid attention to is the mortality rate seems to continuously climb and outstrip testing rate up until the last couple of days.

We really have no idea what the overall outcome looks like. Can't stay inside forever which likely means future waves with yet higher peaks. I wager wearing masks will catch on much like far east cities.

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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

BlueCheesehead said:


> d365 -The Iceland test is exactly what epidemiologists at Stanford said a month ago. It is also theorized that California was infected back in December. Both of those facts can be seen as this, while bad, is not as bad as some first thought.
> 
> Sure, let's mandate masks for this disease that is looking to kill 60,000 people. Then next year we can employ the same mandate to save some of the 40,000+ that die from the flu. Why should we not take the same precaution to save them? Masks would be similarly effective in preventing that spread.


Iceland study is actual scientific data numbers not a just a theory, but good for Stanford. It's not as bad, because drastic measures were taken.

The CDC model said 1.7 million deaths, 214 M infected, was the worst case estimate for the US if we did nothing. Seasonal flu doesn't have the same infection rate, nor hospitalizations, nor deaths... . and 47% of the US gets a flu vaccine most years.

This isn't going away in the next couple of months. We're going to continue to have outbreaks for the foreseeable future. I'm all for mandating masks in public until this is under control, especially as we try to reopen the country for business again, and if it cuts down on flu infections too, then great.

Trying to make this the equivalent of the seasonal flu is just blatantly stupid, and to prove what exactly?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> That is patently false.
> No one can assign the infection rate rise or fall and certainly not the death count, strictly to distancing.
> That is not Science.
> It isn't even logical.
> It is fallacious propaganda.


Distancing, whether with masks, hand washing, or physical distance is all we got. Arguing with ppl and not being able to except many realities is all you got.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> For God's sake don't mention the political demographic......
> 
> Oooooops


Ooops is right.
You really don't wanna go there. Considering your state is likely taking way more than what it contributes. Would think you're not far from Mississippi, given a few posts of you looking down at them, as if you're better. Have also heard ny, Cali and Michigan trash talking you either instigated or took part in. Fine freakin American. Who blabbers about freedoms. Would guess you think your smarter than any state that is forward leaning.
If I had to guess your in Missouri. Even if that's wrong, and not sure I'd believe you either way, let's look at Missouri... has twice the population that Mississippi does, yet still gives less to fed, compared to what it gets.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Arguing with ppl and not being able to except many realities is all you got.


Again, not true.
I except nearly everything you post.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Ooops is right.
> You really don't wanna go there. Considering your state is likely taking way more than what it contributes. Would think you're not far from Mississippi, given a few posts of you looking down at them, as if you're better. Have also heard ny, Cali and Michigan trash talking you either instigated or took part in. Fine freakin American. Who blabbers about freedoms. Would guess you think your smarter than any state that is forward leaning.
> If I had to guess your in Missouri. Even if that's wrong, and not sure I'd believe you either way, let's look at Missouri... has twice the population that Mississippi does, yet still gives less to fed, compared to what it gets.
> View attachment 1324423


LMAO.
Wrong again.....


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

OzarkFathom said:


> That is patently false.
> No one can assign the infection rate rise or fall and certainly not the death count, strictly to distancing.
> That is not Science.
> It isn't even logical.
> It is fallacious propaganda.


ever hear of statistics ? probably not, as it is a science. the numbers are pretty accurate 
and there is tons of real world data gathered over centuries to model from.

Statistics is a form of mathematical analysis that uses quantified models, representations and synopses for a given set of experimental data or real-life studies.

Statistics studies methodologies to gather, review, analyze and draw conclusions from data.

sorry...big brain stuff...I should dumb it down more


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“Strictly to distancing”

Read it again in the context of his post.

Now in the interest of following through on dumbing it down for me,
explain how the social distancing factor, even assuming you could nail it down to 100% accuracy, is as he implied (“completely because of distancing“) the only factor in the death rate.

Indulge my ignorance with a display of brilliance.....

Demonstrate how social distancing “completely” accounts for the death rate.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> LMAO.
> Wrong again.....


Typical lack of substance, zero original thought, regurgitated propaganda and butt hurt ego nonsense. Or the humor ploy


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Typical lack of substance, zero original thought, regurgitated propaganda and butt hurt ego nonsense. Or the humor ploy


Simple, succinct, truth.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

In the meantime.....

NYU scientists: Largest US study of COVID-19 finds obesity the single biggest 'chronic' factor in New York City's hospitalizations

And directly related to the fallacious assertion that "social distancing" is simply and completely responsible for the death rate variation:
"The huge burden of obesity and other chronic conditions among Americans puts most of us at direct risk," they wrote. "In fact, with obesity rates in the US much higher than affected countries like South Korea and China, our outcomes -- economic- and health-wise -- could be much worse."
https://www.zdnet.com/article/nyu-s...le-biggest-factor-in-new-york-critical-cases/

Additionally it is interesting to note there is evidence that social distancing increases obesity rates......


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> In the meantime.....
> 
> NYU scientists: Largest US study of COVID-19 finds obesity the single biggest 'chronic' factor in New York City's hospitalizations
> 
> ...


Yeah "for god's sake don't bring up political demographics"....
Trying to follow...
Less fat people helps us curb the virus?
Tip: you don't want to go into political demographics on that one, neither,
Probably safe to say fat people should wash their hands. Thanx for your insight.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> In the meantime.....
> 
> NYU scientists: Largest US study of COVID-19 finds obesity the single biggest 'chronic' factor in New York City's hospitalizations.


I bet those obese people are smoking a lot of chronic too.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Bunch of fukking idiots that think CV19 ain't so bad. You guys are deluded and quite foolish. People are dying that might be saved if everyone took note and practiced what is being advised as the way to minimize all this. My son in law is grieving his longest childhood friend today, who died yesterday from CV complications. 29 years old and in very good health. His mum is a nurse working on CV patients, and apparently infected him.
People may scoff and say that this is an isolated case, but it is not. 

The only way to prevent a lot more deaths is to firmly adhere to distancing, mask wearing if in public unavoidably, and yes, washing hands. Look around you. If this country's economy is to open up any time soon, a massive federal effort to get a nationwide testing program going, along with contact tracing of infectees. The feds' response so far has been pathetic. We will never get out of this relatively unscathed until they get it together, and the absolute twat in charge has gone. He is a danger to us all. That is simple fact. He is directly responsible for this abject failure of a coherent response.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Vitamin D deficiency in acute respiratory distress syndrome


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

CORONAVIRUS CAN BE PREVENTED - VITAMIN D SOLUTION


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, the bulk of places with high infection rates are large population centers TODAY.
> 
> Did you read the article? Of course not.
> 
> I'm guessing U. of Arkansas?


I did read it, it was more about what political leaders had to say than anything. As I said, no place is immune, but what is necessary in one place is not necessary in others. In NYC you may have an infected person go in a subway and contaminate a train car that thousands could touch before the virus becomes non-infectious. That is a far different geometric graph than an infected person coughing on a gas pump in podunk Colorado that maybe only 5 other people touch before the virus becomes un-viable.

Remember, actions taken have been about slowing the spread (flattening the curve) not eliminating it.

Feel free to wear a mask, gloves or whatever, just don't tell other people at little risk to do the same.

Arkansas? Sorry if you were rejected, but no. Not even close.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The only way to prevent a lot more deaths is to firmly adhere to distancing, mask wearing if in public unavoidably, and yes, washing hands. Look around you. If this country's economy is to open up any time soon, a massive federal effort to get a nationwide testing program going, along with contact tracing of infectees. The feds' response so far has been pathetic. We will never get out of this relatively unscathed until they get it together, and the absolute twat in charge has gone. He is a danger to us all. That is simple fact. He is directly responsible for this abject failure of a coherent response.


If that is true the Governor of New York along with many others is a "Danger to us all"....

Simple question.
How long is this test valid?
24 hours? 1 week?
If we tested 324 million people tomorrow would you quarantine every positive?
The Governor of NY refused, with threat, quarantine for any untested travel, to or from the largest concentration of death and infection in the whole country.

"I've sued the federal government many times over the past few years. ... I don't believe it's going to come to that on this," he said. "This would be a declaration of war on states, a federal declaration of war."


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

d365 said:


> Iceland study is actual scientific data numbers not a just a theory, but good for Stanford. It's not as bad, because drastic measures were taken.
> 
> The CDC model said 1.7 million deaths, 214 M infected, was the worst case estimate for the US if we did nothing. Seasonal flu doesn't have the same infection rate, nor hospitalizations, nor deaths... . and 47% of the US gets a flu vaccine most years.
> 
> ...


If the models were right and 1.7M would have died, then simply washing one's hands and social distancing cut that number by 96.5%. Wow, pretty damn effective.

The comparison is to where we are today with Covid, 60,000 projected deaths thanks to measures taken and where we are every year with the flu. The orders of magnitude of deaths, again, from this point of the Covid battle, are comparable. Not stupid at all.

It is true that Covid-19 differs substantially from the flu. One apparent difference is that much like SARS or MERS it does not appear to mutate as quickly as the flu, so once this passes it may not present itself as a "seasonal Covid".


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

...


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I did read it, it was more about what political leaders had to say than anything. As I said, no place is immune, but what is necessary in one place is not necessary in others. In NYC you may have an infected person go in a subway and contaminate a train car that thousands could touch before the virus becomes non-infectious. That is a far different geometric graph than an infected person coughing on a gas pump in podunk Colorado that maybe only 5 other people touch before the virus becomes un-viable.
> 
> Remember, actions taken have been about slowing the spread (flattening the curve) not eliminating it.
> 
> ...


You don't wear a mask to protect yourself, YOU WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS. This has been pointed out over and over and over. Either you ignore that fact, or you willfully discard the advice because you only care about yourself, or you are too dumb to read.

Which is it?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> ...


Total Elipse of the Heart.






"Every now and then I fall apart"

LMAO.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> You don't wear a mask to protect yourself, YOU WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS. This has been pointed out over and over and over. Either you ignore that fact, or you willfully discard the advice because you only care about yourself, or you are too dumb to read.
> 
> Which is it?


FALSE.
Any mask with an exhale valve is for personal protection only.
That is why they are not used in surgery.
The CDC makes this clear, as do many others.
A typical HVAC system without isolation pressure controls transmits air among every room in the system.

Now Honkin.
You Read....
Directly from the CDC:
An N95 respirator with an exhalation valve does provide the same level of protection to the wearer as one that does not have a valve. The presence of an exhalation valve reduces exhalation resistance, which makes it easier to breathe (exhale). Some users feel that a respirator with an exhalation valve keeps the face cooler and reduces moisture build up inside the facepiece. However, respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field must be maintained (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field.

You put 10 healthcare workers in valved masks, with 1 asymptomatic infection among them, in a non sterile HVAC environment which is typical of most of the functioning area of a hospital, and the valved masks will allow for the exhaled spread of the infection throughout the system.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Total Elipse of the Heart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I asked where you came up with Cuomo is a danger. Then your multi-edits took care of that so I deleted, and was right about it being fox talking points.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Direct quote from Cuomo.....
CNN.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> FALSE.
> Any mask with an exhale valve is for personal protection only.
> That is why they are not used in surgery.
> The CDC makes this clear, as do many others.
> ...


Moving targets 
Op did not mention exhaust valves or hvac systems. Boy I'm glad hospitals figured this out, or read your post
Can we call you dr oz on this thread. I mean your both trying for better ratings


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> You don't wear a mask to protect yourself, YOU WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS. This has been pointed out over and over and over. Either you ignore that fact, or you willfully discard the advice because you only care about yourself, or you are too dumb to read.
> 
> Which is it?


I fully understand the purpose of the mask.

Wear one if you like, perhaps it makes you feel better. I wear one when I feel it necessary. There is a difference between "advice" and a "mandate".

Your little "word traps" are so perplexing. Keep trying.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Direct quote from Cuomo.....
> CNN.....


Shall I post some other vids from the gov? How bout the prez?
Time has shown you are wrong, among other things, and leadership, or lack of, is becoming crystal clear in the cuomo orange man arena.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Reality Meat.
Reality.
The Governor rejected quarantine.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Reality Meat.
> Reality.


Trump claims coronavirus is under control -- contradicting reality.
Think the exact words were he has tremendous control over it. That was what, March 16th? Was it the 20th when cuomo put stay at home order?
Can post a vid, and many more... will make no difference. It only adds validity to your complete bs


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> FALSE.
> Any mask with an exhale valve is for personal protection only.
> That is why they are not used in surgery.
> The CDC makes this clear, as do many others.
> ...


Where did I mention a mask with an N95 valve?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> I fully understand the purpose of the mask.
> 
> Wear one if you like, perhaps it makes you feel better. I wear one when I feel it necessary. There is a difference between "advice" and a "mandate".
> 
> Your little "word traps" are so perplexing. Keep trying.


So you wear a mask for yourself, not for others. Thanks for admitting it.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> So you wear a mask for yourself, not for others. Thanks for admitting it.


Comprehension is not your strong suit as that is not what I said. The mask that I wear is not n95, so it does little for me.


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Down the Rabbit Hole...*

" Oh dear Oh dear ! I shall be to late "

Given growing human density ( think human population lockdown at this point of the Anthropocene Drama for a few months, couple extra hominids there perhaps ?), a world consumer model dependent on growth of a certain percentage or it begins to collapse/fail, social/mental distancing and its ramifications...

Oh dear, Oh dear... Viruses to...


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> Where did I mention a mask with an N95 valve?


It is absurd to suggest people wear masks that leave them completely vulnerable, without training in use, with the singular utility of protecting others as a simple surgical or dust mask would.
And if you think for one minute that people accept that, this view of yours is extended much further beyond reason than I thought possible.
If you want to stake out that ground go ahead, it simply pushes you well beyond any margin of reasonable argument.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In2falling said:


> CORONAVIRUS CAN BE PREVENTED - VITAMIN D SOLUTION


As a medical provider, I just gotta say this: Vitamin D deficiency is not a cure or the cause for illness in 99.9% of people.

Funny story, my father is a hypochondriac who fears medical care as much as he fears illness. So over the years he has had all kinds of scams hoisted on him including some berry extract (Mangenstein?) and my fav "Sea Silver", minerals harvested "naturally" from the sea. He also takes whopping doses of Vit C.

So yeah, but these things, take em, and enjoy having very expensive urine


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> So you wear a mask for yourself, not for others. Thanks for admitting it.


Another absurd dichotomy.
Protecting yourself is the best way to protect others in this circumstance.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

He asked you a question, you did not answer it.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Another absurd dichotomy.
> Protecting yourself is the best way to protect others in this circumstance.


But wait, are you properly trained? What about that valve you tried to use against him
Hello


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You are out of your depth here Meat....Your posting history makes that abundantly clear.

Treating an infected patient whilst protecting the HCW vs protecting the uninfected.
Though it is a simple logical concept, obviously hard for some to comprehend....
”Hello” indeed.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> As a medical provider, I just gotta say this: Vitamin D deficiency is not a cure or the cause for illness in 99.9% of people.


Not not a cure at all, it is healthy proactive prevention.Very very strong evidence to support it can/will help with the severity of respiratory illnesses like covid-19.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In2falling said:


> Not not a cure at all, it is healthy proactive prevention.Very very strong evidence to support it can/will help with the severity of respiratory illnesses like covid-19.


I'm just telling you, from a medical provider standpoint, this is the kind of stuff we laugh about when the clients can't hear us.

Wanna be proactice, eat healthy, exercise regularly, avoid stress, sleep well, avoid tobacco/drugs/alcohol, and get routine check ups.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm just telling you, from a medical provider standpoint, this is the kind of stuff we laugh about when the clients can't hear us.


No offense, but I will take the advice of researchers (doctors) and autoimmune disease specialists who have been researching this for 20+ years over general medical provider/doctors. 
Thanks!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ever notice how lay people are the ones positing experiemental cures, posting data, and reporting research, but the medical folks don't.

There may be a reason, just saying.

I'll admit that I find this thread absolutely hysterical and at the same time appalling.

Over time I have come to the conclusion that anonymity is a curse and that there does not appear to be a cure.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> It is absurd to suggest people wear masks that leave them completely vulnerable, without training in use, with the singular utility of protecting others as a simple surgical or dust mask would.
> And if you think for one minute that people accept that, this view of yours is extended much further beyond reason than I thought possible.
> If you want to stake out that ground go ahead, it simply pushes you well beyond any margin of reasonable argument.


Dude. The CDC *specifically* recommends a cloth mask and specifically does *not* recommend N95 masks for the general population while out in public. I never mentioned N95 masks. Go back and read.

Of course, Mid-south nutjobs will ignore anything recommended by the "man", so your position is perfectly understandable. Enjoy your stay at home orders as they extend into Fall.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html


----------



## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

From the mask wearers that I've seen at the local grocery store, seems they are putting themselves at more risk. Most are constantly touching their mask/face and others aren't wearing them correctly.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> Dude. The CDC *specifically* recommends a cloth mask and specifically does *not* recommend N95 masks for the general population while out in public. I never mentioned N95 masks. Go back and read.
> 
> Of course, Mid-south nutjobs will ignore anything recommended by the "man", so your position is perfectly understandable. Enjoy your stay at home orders as they extend into Fall.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html


Wrong again.
Nowhere in your link does the CDC recommend wearing a mask in public.
They specifically and intentionally recommend a covering. 
They know the difference.
You do not.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

One of the problems with nursing homes is that a lot of the workers work at multiple homes, spreading the virus from home to home.

Another is the lack of PPE and lack of testing. In an ideal world, the workers, nurses, doctors and everyone else at the hospital, old age home, retirement home would be tested every single day, or as much as possible. Not only them, but also the patients.

Next is the over crowding of the homes to garner higher profits and to make the price more affordable to the patients.

The inability of transportation to a centralized quarantine facility.

Social distancing rules of 6'


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong again.
> Nowhere in your link does the CDC recommend wearing a mask in public.
> They specifically and intentionally recommend a covering.
> They know the difference.
> You do not.


He knows the difference and made that clear. What's also clear, and common sense, is that if we had enough masks that coverings, instead of masks would not be recommended. If that has to be explained it's useless to try
Meanwhile

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/29/opin...al-protective-equipment-obeidallah/index.html


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> One of the problems with nursing homes is that a lot of the workers work at multiple homes, spreading the virus from home to home.
> 
> Another is the lack of PPE and lack of testing. In an ideal world, the workers, nurses, doctors and everyone else at the hospital, old age home, retirement home would be tested every single day, or as much as possible. Not only them, but also the patients.
> 
> ...


An architect of our health system would see those resources better spent elsewhere:

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...ist-argues-life-after-75-is-not-worth-living/


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

While Covid deaths are not on here, this does have some interesting data:

https://www.worldometers.info/

Just think what we would do if Covid killed 1 of 100 kids let alone 1 of 5...


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Is there a way to block a thread?

If not, there should be ...


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Is there a way to block a thread?
> 
> If not, there should be ...


Nurse Ben, with all respect, you do not have to read this. The mods can close a thread of course, and you can ignore who you want, but the thread is here in the meantime!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Is there a way to block a thread?
> 
> If not, there should be ...


Sure.
Scroll.
(I'm guessing that was rhetorical.)


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Is there a way to block a thread?
> 
> If not, there should be ...


But, but if you did that...


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

rockerc said:


> Nurse Ben, with all respect, you do not have to read this. The mods can close a thread of course, and you can ignore who you want, but the thread is here in the meantime!


Yeah, just skip the thread all together as rockerc mentions.

Otherwise its like holding your hand to calm you down and tell you what to do. Children indeed, rockerc.

Would it be more of a subtle cue of disapproval of the way the thread went, or to rat out. I like how you want to block the thread yet posted in it anyways. Interesting behaviour whatever you are trying to do ben.

Its easy, from the list of threads in a category of subject matter........
DO NOT CLICK ON
------------> Ok, time for serious talk: the virus and you

Pretty simple.

Mental Iggy


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry Ben
Some of us could use an anti-in-flame-atory, eh


----------



## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

I can see the boys are still at it. Maybe I'll check back in a couple of days


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Dirtrider127 said:


> I can see the boys are still at it. Maybe I'll check back in a couple of days


Yeah, that's what I've been doing.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Dirtrider127 said:


> *I can see the boys are still at it.* Maybe I'll check back in a couple of days


WRONG!
Blah blah blah *big words*.
Moar blah blah blah *bigger words* blah blah blah.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> While Covid deaths are not on here, this does have some interesting data:
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/
> 
> Just think what we would do if Covid killed 1 of 100 kids let alone 1 of 5...


Been using the same site/app. If there's a better one I haven't found it yet.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Is there a way to block a thread?
> 
> If not, there should be ...


Unsubscribe works. Then just don't look at it on the new posts list.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> WRONG!
> Blah blah blah *big words*.
> Moar blah blah blah *bigger words* blah blah blah.


Wrong again. Blah blah blah

Dichotomy. Blah blah blah


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Wrong again. Blah blah blah
> 
> Dichotomy. Blah blah blah


I didn't mean to single out Oz here...

*Just too tired to type up a witty reply with a few misspellings and punctuation errors.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Cornfield said:


> I didn't mean to single out Oz here...
> 
> *Just too tired to type up a witty reply with a few misspellings and punctuation errors.


Yeah, typos really throw some people off


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

Medical folks... just say'en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_Egas_Moniz


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Wikipedia is a source of honesty and truth.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

UpTheAnte said:


> Medical folks... just say'en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_Egas_Moniz


Huh?


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Huh?


This help, I'm trying to translate "huh"

s Ago#1286​Nurse Ben








mtbr member
Reputation:













































































Join DateDec 2007Posts7,443

Ever notice how lay people are the ones positing experiemental cures, posting data, and reporting research, but the medical folks don't.

There may be a reason, just saying.

I'll admit that I find this thread absolutely hysterical and at the same time appalling.

Over time I have come to the conclusion that anonymity is a curse and that there does not appear to be a cure.​


----------



## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Huh?


This help, I'm trying to translate "huh"

s Ago#1286​
Nurse Ben









Ever notice how lay people are the ones positing experiemental cures, posting data, and reporting research, but the medical folks don't.

There may be a reason, just saying.

I'll admit that I find this thread absolutely hysterical and at the same time appalling.

Over time I have come to the conclusion that anonymity is a curse and that there does not appear to be a cure.​


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

What is that lengthy green blob?


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

rockerc said:


> What is that lengthy green blob?


I believe it is Nurse Bens reputation, enlarged,??? maybe my fat finger or something, not intended on my part, sorry, I am out of here, carry on.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Looks like the start of a virus to me. The site has been weird


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

UpTheAnte said:


> This help, I'm trying to translate "huh"


I just didn't understand what you were getting at with the Wiki reference, that's all.
I guess I missed the punchline, so to speak.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Ever notice how lay people are the ones positing experiemental cures, posting data, and reporting research, but the medical folks don't.


He was responding to the above quote.
He was pointing out some of the experimental cures that medical folks have tried......
Lobotomy as an example.
Experimental cure by a Nobel prize winner.
Certainly not a "lay person".
Note his co-recipient.
*António Caetano de Abreu Freire Egas Moniz (29 November 1874 - 13 December 1955), known as Egas Moniz (Portuguese: [ˈɛɣɐʒ muˈniʃ]), was a Portuguese neurologist and the developer of cerebral angiography. He is regarded as one of the founders of modern psychosurgery,[SUP][1][/SUP] having developed the surgical procedure leucotomy- known better today as lobotomy- for which he became the first Portuguese national to receive a Nobel Prize in 1949 (shared with Walter Rudolf Hess).[SUP][2][/SUP]*


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> He was responding to the above quote.
> He was pointing out some of the experimental cures that medical folks have tried......
> Lobotomy as an example.
> Experimental cure by a Nobel prize winner.
> ...


Oh.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

António Egas Moniz and his Nobel prize is a good example of what can happen when docs are too involved with politics.
Even scarier what can happen when political leaders play doctor


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> António Egas Moniz and his Nobel prize is a good example of what can happen when docs are too involved with politics.
> Even scarier what can happen when political leaders play doctor


Leaders have to consider more than just the medical point of view. Harsh reality.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Leaders have to consider more than just the medical point of view. Harsh reality.


True. Let's look at China. Don't think there are many countries that put their gdp higher on their list of priorities. Yet they shut it down bigly. Much bigger and harsher than most. 
That should be a lesson, or not, on how big and game changing this virus is.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Mudguard said:


> I saw a good analogy for describing the pandemic. A burger shop has no problem making 700 burgers a day. It has an issue when one person orders 700 burgers. Those flu deaths are probably spread out during the year. Whereas you have an influx of Covid-19 patients taking up beds, it might mean someone who has a mild heart attack suddenly isn't treated as urgently as the might have been.


The flu has a season. It is not spread evenly through the year.









Yes, I get the idea that we the best information at the time indicated that we needed to take action to "flatten the curve". The same measures do not need to be taken everywhere to accomplish that. We have hospitals that are laying people off due to lack of patients. Much like Rockerc has experienced, we have cancer patients that cannot get tests done timely because they are not deemed an emergency...yet we are laying people off. Dealing with cancer is not "elective".

When all is said and done it will be interesting to see where places that did not "shelter in place" end up. 4-6 weeks in, Sweden and the 7 states that have bucked the trend seem to be fairing about the same as states/countries with such orders with regard to infection rates.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> The flu has a season. It is not spread evenly through the year.
> 
> View attachment 1324775
> 
> ...


Yup. And if immunity lasts as it does with many other virus, a better quicker path forward


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> True. Let's look at China. Don't think there are many countries that put their gdp higher on their list of priorities. Yet they shut it down bigly. Much bigger and harsher than most.
> That should be a lesson, or not, on how big and game changing this virus is.


One would be a fool to look at China...and you are generally pretty reasoned. China claims 3,000 deaths from Covid, yet 90,000 from seasonal flu. China isolated cities with the military because that's what authoritarian regimes do. I have not seen reports of them "sheltering in place" the whole country. China did not shut down their economy as much as the world shut down trading with them.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> One would be a fool to look at China...and you are generally pretty reasoned. China claims 3,000 deaths from Covid, yet 90,000 from seasonal flu. China isolated cities with the military because that's what authoritarian regimes do. China did not shut down their economy as much as the world shut down trading with them.


Don't have to trust what China says on this one. Satellite pics of lack of pollution show it clearly.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Don't have to trust what China says on this one. Satellite pics of lack of pollution show it clearly.


Lack of pollution is not a sign that the Chinese government shuttered the economy. Again, there is no one buying their products, thus to reason to produce.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Lack of pollution is not a sign that the Chinese government shuttered the economy. Again, there is no one buying their products, thus to reason to produce.


Not understanding how that adds up. Factories were shut down, satellites verify it. People were forced to be tested whether they wanted it or not. Have a friend currently living in Hong Kong, and that appears to be truth. They have relaxed the shut down and now they are seeing another curve.

Will add that I get your less buying point. Except it doesn't shut down overnight because of that, and while demand as a whole may be down, some things have skyrocketed. As an example bike purchase down, in home stationary bikes are through the roof.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

UpTheAnte said:


> Ever notice how lay people are the ones positing experiemental cures, posting data, and reporting research, but the medical folks don't.


That's the power of the internet. Five minutes of Google and a few hours of reading woo woo science sites and you learn more than a ten year yooneeversty edjumicated medical specialist, and makes you grateful you left school at 13 and didn't have to suffer all those extra years of brainwashing.

That's why I regularly take energising uranium tablets and Whacko snake oil because I now know better than them.

Dikipedia wouldn't lie to me, would it?


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Shelter in Place*

Shane & Edward, not for the faint of heart.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

The doctor that presents MedCram lectures goes over a couple of really interesting studies regarding the innate immune system and the effects of "being one with nature" for lack of a better description.

"Forest bathing".

A series of joint studies from Stanford University School of Medicine and several medical schools and institutions in Japan demonstrated that exposure to "phytoncides" released by trees and plants may boost immunity by increasing natural killer cell quantity and activity among other effects.

Dr. Seheult illustrates how these studies were conducted as exposure to forests (forest bathing) may fall into the category of additional things we can do (and that don't cause harm) to potentially help prevent viral infections such as COVID-19.

Study done by:
Department of Hygiene and Public Health, Nippon Medical School, Tokyo;
Department of Social and Environmental Medicine, Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka;
Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute, Tsukuba, Ibaraki; 'Nagano Prefecture Forest Research
Center, Nagano, Shiojiri, Japan; 'Stanford University School of Medicine, Palo Alto, CA, USA

Lesson: Stop to smell the roses (or in this case, the trees).






"Physiological effect of olfactory stimulation by Hinoki cypress (Chamaecyparis obtusa) leaf oil"

https://jphysiolanthropol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40101-015-0082-2

They didn't study it in conjunction with "not screaming at each other all day". I wonder what the results of the combination would be.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> The doctor that presents MedCram lectures goes over a couple of really interesting studies regarding the innate immune system and the effects of "being one with nature" for lack of a better description.
> 
> They didn't study it in conjunction with "not screaming at each other all day". I wonder what the results of the combination would be.


Interesting. Don't see much screaming for now, hmmm. Pretty much everyone injects their brand of drama tho. All good. Sometimes getting to the point better then beating round the bush. 
With studies we learn some things and learn more that we don't know. Maybe it's not trees but frog piss. Not trying to be cute. The China Study a good example. At first it seemed pretty cut and dry conclusive. Since, it has shaped education, how people learn, and what they preach as a result. As time goes by and the study is dissected further we see that people who have more money likely exercised less, ate fruit closer to peak ripeness, and ate things not native like peanut butter as some examples of how when you dig deeper you can find what was clear, maybe not so much


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Not understanding how that adds up. Factories were shut down, satellites verify it. People were forced to be tested whether they wanted it or not. Have a friend currently living in Hong Kong, and that appears to be truth. They have relaxed the shut down and now they are seeing another curve.
> 
> Will add that I get your less buying point. Except it doesn't shut down overnight because of that, and while demand as a whole may be down, some things have skyrocketed. As an example bike purchase down, in home stationary bikes are through the roof.


We both might be wrong. I looked up Chinese Exports. You know what shuts factories down? Chinese New Year. It's a BIG deal. The trend is pretty clear.









Funny on seeing another curve given all published data is incredible...literally incredible. No way, no how have they limited deaths to 3,000. Zero chance.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> We both might be wrong. I looked up Chinese Exports. You know what shuts factories down? Chinese New Year. It's a BIG deal. The trend is pretty clear.
> 
> View attachment 1324807
> 
> ...


Looking at your chart it appears the act of export is def down once a year at new year celebration time. You may have figured out one way liberals are so easily duped, showing us one year. That's dang smart!

Would not be surprised if their lockdown wasn't timed with new year to minimize economic damage. If you look closer to production numbers, as compared to export, another pattern can be seen.









Agree their 3k death toll complete bs. Likely has lots to do with how they collected data, or should say were forced to. I.e. someone went to hospital with covid and their resulting pneumonia or kidney failure or heart attack tallied as cause of death


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Maybe it's not trees but frog piss.


I couldn't find any frog piss, but Amazon does have the cedar $hit, so I'm going to try it out.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

theMeat said:


> Looks like the start of a virus to me. The site has been weird
> View attachment 1324763


crap...now i have to wear a mask to view this site...


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Looking at your chart it appears the act of export is def down once a year at new year celebration time. You may have figured out one way liberals are so easily duped, showing us one year. That's dang smart!
> 
> Would not be surprised if their lockdown wasn't timed with new year to minimize economic damage. If you look closer to production numbers, as compared to export, another pattern can be seen.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that that manufacturing down significantly. It makes sense that it would be. What does not make sense is that a country of 1.4B people would do significant shut downs over only 82,000 cases and 3,000 deaths. It has to be off by at least an order of magnitude. I don't think you get to those low numbers simply by classification. Seems like falsification is more likely.

From CNBC:

"China's leaders have urged local governments, factories and workers to re-start operations as soon as possible in less affected regions. But the response has been slow and many migrant workers - including those in worst-hit Hubei province - have yet to return to work due to stringent quarantine rules and ongoing travel bans."

We will see that too. Trump is posturing to get things moving before long and will be rebuffed by restrictions put on by the states. Once states feel the pinch of reduced income tax and sales tax revenue to the point they need to cut they may open up (after whining to the Feds for more $$$).

Wouldn't it be nice if those imposing edicts on the populace had their paychecks stop like the hardest hit under their domain? Rest assured, few, if any, will miss a check.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Vancouver is going Bankrupt
All the foreign owners arent paying their taxes, they know they can get away with it easier.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Portland put a freeze on raises and a mandatory 10 day unpaid furlough for public employees. Odot and Trimet have had huge layoffs. Methinks the emphasis on pot shops and liquor stores being "essential" is the high tax quotient.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Flatten the Curve!!!!!!!!!!!

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> We will see that too. Trump is posturing to get things moving before long and will be rebuffed by restrictions put on by the states. Once states feel the pinch of reduced income tax and sales tax revenue to the point they need to cut they may open up (after whining to the Feds for more $$$).
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if those imposing edicts on the populace had their paychecks stop like the hardest hit under their domain? Rest assured, few, if any, will miss a check.


To this would say thankfully many, most gov had the empathy and foresight to act before our prez. Neighboring govs in dif areas of our country working together to mitigate, and looking forward to reopen in a concerted way is comforting. Given the lack of testing and leadership from elsewhere. 
Health and safety comes first, like it or not. The prez can stop interstate travel, but cannot tell them they have to travel. Nor stop events or other gatherings within states. Guidelines are recommendations or threats. Only states can impose restrictions within their states. The problem with that is they can tell people to stay in and enforce that, but they can't tell ppl to go out. And unless ppl feel safe, many won't. Don't see us getting back to a new normal until vaccine or the likes. Many ppl will not pack sporting events, concerts, or other crowded places no matter what the prez or govs say or do.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> To this would say thankfully many, most gov had the empathy and foresight to act before our prez. Neighboring govs in dif areas of our country working together to mitigate, and looking forward to reopen in a concerted way is comforting. Given the lack of testing and leadership from elsewhere.
> Health and safety comes first, like it or not. The prez can stop interstate travel, but cannot tell them they have to travel. Nor stop events or other gatherings within states. Guidelines are recommendations or threats. Only states can impose restrictions within their states. The problem with that is they can tell people to stay in and enforce that, but they can't tell ppl to go out. And unless ppl feel safe, many won't. Don't see us getting back to a new normal until vaccine or the likes. Many ppl will not pack sporting events, concerts, or other crowded places no matter what the prez or govs say or do.


That "empathy" that many governors exercised is not necessarily showing better results than those that chose not to shelter in place. States have the right to take the actions they are taking, but then look to the Federal government to bail them out. If the states had to foot the bill for their actions things would be different.

Funny how it's apparently the President that has the power to stop interstate travel, but not enforce international boarders. Can you imagine if the President imposed a quarantine on the state of New York not allowing interstate travel? People would have gone ape schitt.

I certainly am in no hurry to squeeze into the bleachers at Lambeau Field, but in a month or two I will have no problem going places with the population density of a restaurant.


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

This is a wicked fine line of opening up vs keeping shut down. It is really easy for people to say ‘let’s be cautious’ stance who can pay rent/mortgage and put food on table vs those that are a week or so away from going broke. It would be interesting to see a poll of ‘do you feel safe going back to work’. I see both sides of this equation and don’t know the right answer but do realize people are hurting from this in more ways than just getting sick from virus.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Unbrockenchain said:


> This is a wicked fine line of opening up vs keeping shut down. It is really easy for people to say 'let's be cautious' stance who can pay rent/mortgage and put food on table vs those that are a week or so away from going broke. It would be interesting to see a poll of 'do you feel safe going back to work'. I see both sides of this equation and don't know the right answer but do realize people are hurting from this in more ways than just getting sick from virus.


Your question is worth a new thread. 
150 years ago the vast majority of humans lived in rural or small communities where we knew all our neighbours.
Now we mostly live in large or very large cities where we know nothing about most of our neighbours.
Over the last 50 years we became 1 human = 1 car so we polute and only care about our little being.
Should we go in a different direction or just rush back in what is obviously a terrible way to live? 
What about the next problem?
What about the debts personal and from different levels of governement?
What when interest rates go up?
So in my opinion wearing quality masks would be helpfull but ONLY if they are free and everywhere.
The volontairy or mandatory masks are just useless. 
Some will reuse them too much because they do not care or cannot find them or afford them.
So you see the dilemma, when people trust guns and not science they die and infect others before they die.
I would send my kids to school if i trusted my neighbours but how can i trust people i do not know?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> That "empathy" that many governors exercised is not necessarily showing better results than those that chose not to shelter in place. States have the right to take the actions they are taking, but then look to the Federal government to bail them out. If the states had to foot the bill for their actions things would be different.
> 
> Funny how it's apparently the President that has the power to stop interstate travel, but not enforce international boarders. Can you imagine if the President imposed a quarantine on the state of New York not allowing interstate travel? People would have gone ape schitt.
> 
> I certainly am in no hurry to squeeze into the bleachers at Lambeau Field, but in a month or two I will have no problem going places with the population density of a restaurant.


Shelter in place is working to slow the spread.
States don't have the means to print money or work with fed reserve as fed does. Think of it as the fed has almost unlimited lending capacity as a means to protect money. 
Don't have a crystal ball, but 2 months not looking likely for most places. Especially if the confidence that testing will bring is not in place. 
Just this week we have heard the prez powers are absolute, then that was dialed back. Now the prez is going to shut congress, which again is wrong. Even if he could, is stupid


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> So you see the dilemma, when people trust guns and not science they die and infect others before they die.


Science gave me my guns.
An incredible amount of research went into each and every one. Same with the ammunition. A firm belief in and intimate practice of Science accompanies every shot.



> I would send my kids to school if i trusted my neighbours but how can i trust people i do not know?


This is the heart of a dictator. A signature quality of the leftist mindset.
The People cannot be trusted, they need someone like me to run their affairs, to dictate their personal daily activity.
You wear it well.
The Ultimate Prejudice.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Americans will have enough of this at some point and will make their own choices.
For better or worse, adapting where needed.
They elected Obama, and they elected Trump.
Nothing the government or Governors can do will stop that.

Bank on it.
I am.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nothing drives gun sales better than fear.
You wear it well.
And thanks for trying to turn another thread into pro gun bs


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Big Pharma.....
This ain't coming from the WHO or the government or the governors.
It is coming from private enterprise.

Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) said on Tuesday it plans to begin imminent production of its trial COVID-19 vaccine on an "at risk" basis, as the coronavirus pandemic infects nearly 2 million people around the world.

Manufacturing "at risk" allows the world's third largest pharmaceutical company to produce a product before its ultimate design is finalized and released to the public. The company plans to produce its COVID-19 vaccine in the Netherlands, and a facility it is updating in the United States.

"We're manufacturing at risk to ensure that should the clinical development and the trials be successful, we are in a position to kind of flip the switch and ready to go, to create great access across the globe," J&J CFO Joe Wolk told Yahoo Finance in an interview.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/...-production-at-risk-imminently-210204457.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Nothing drives gun sales better than fear.
> You wear it well.
> And thanks for trying to turn another thread into pro gun bs


Who peddles the fear.
I didn't bring guns into it. I quoted the guy who did.
Reading comprehension remains a signature weakness of yours along with that Nasty New York tone you bring to every comment you make to me.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

More from Johnson & Johnson:

J&J began developing its vaccine for COVID-19 in early January with its European subsidiary Janssen Vaccines & Prevention B.V. It’s using the same biological platform Janssen uses in developmental vaccines for Ebola, Zika and Influenza.

During J&J’s first quarter earnings call, Chief Scientific Officer Paul Stoffels said the company is also negotiating with partners in Europe and Asia to produce the vaccine, and partnerships will be announced in the coming weeks.

“Our goal is to enable the supply of more than 1 billion doses of the vaccine globally,” Stoffels said.

This is worth more in the fight against this virus than the testing.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

............

Despite the risks, J&J expressed confidence in the vaccine's effectiveness, based largely on what Stoffels said was "good data in animal models."

Stoffels said the COVID-19 vaccine candidate is using Janssen Vaccine platforms, which already meet World Health Organization (WHO) key attributes for a successful vaccine. Those include proof of long lasting cellular immunity, low to no risk of enhanced respiratory disease and a well tolerated safety profile.
*
"More than 50,000 people have been vaccinated" with the base Janssen Vaccine platform according to Stoffels, "and we have demonstrated that it is well tolerated."*

*Once approved for use, the vaccine will be produced as a not for profit inoculation, according to J&J.

"It's for all of us," Wolk said. "It's anything but business as usual. That is about advancing research and development."*


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Who peddles the fear.
> I didn't bring guns into it. I quoted the guy who did.
> Reading comprehension remains a signature weakness of yours along with that Nasty New York tone you bring to every comment you make to me.


Nasty New York I comprehended, and you pointing to prejudice just a few posts ago...


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Going back to work will be under different circumstances and not like before the coronavirus hit. Eventually people will go back to work, just a matter of when, and when they go back to work, measures will be in place. Most news stories print it out like its going to happen in the next week or two, thats what fake news lies about. Construction sites are still working, though I saw some not staying 6' apart while working and not wearing any mask whatsoever. In some instances construction workers just wont be able to be 6' apart, like moving heavy, awkward appliances into place. Gotta get the current construction pounded out and done, condo projects, new home builds, reno's. Get it done and get paid asap, money - the ultimate motivator.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Edit: The best 2 things to come out of this whole mess so far.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> Science gave me my guns.
> An incredible amount of research went into each and every one. Same with the ammunition. A firm belief in and intimate practice of Science accompanies every shot.
> 
> This is the heart of a dictator. A signature quality of the leftist mindset.
> ...


Reading your thoughts, and the thoughts of similar people on social media, is *why* I don't trust other people.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

My work is considered a essential service so I have not had any time off. When this started my boss held a meeting and told everyone that if they didn't feel comfortable coming to work they could go on our Gov't assistance program, no questions asked. Some of my fellow employees have been off for close to two months so far. 
Some of my friends were forced to shut down, some voluntarily closed their business. I think a lot of them thought it was only going to be for the 2 weeks.
So now we are well into month 2. People are behind on payments, tired of their spouse, netflicks and the internet. 

When are people going back to work? The last report I read said that we need to flatten the curve to save lives. We need 70% of the population to be infected so that the virus won't have enough hosts to survive. Or in a year we will possibly have a vaccination, then all will be well. Can we wait a year to save lives? Can you or your children pay their mortgage?
Will the anti vaccination people be the first in line for a vaccination?

I sympathize with people out of work. . I feel for people who are sick. My heart goes out to you if you have lost a loved one.
I am trying to trust that our elected officials are making the right choices. They don't really have a history of doing that though do they?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I love how some people think this is all "peaking" and good times are ahead. I hate to break it to you, but this is just getting started. 

Here is a small example of how things are going to get *really* weird further down the line.

Many schools have cancelled face-to-face instruction for the rest of this school year. One college, Boston College, has *already* cancelled their Summer sessions and more will follow. Beginning in August, but debated in July, there will be *immense* pressure to send kids back to school in Fall, regardless of the situation. But people with half a brain will hold their kids out, and teachers will likely go on strike to save their lives. The party of "Freedom and Small Government" will be firing teachers and hunting down kids to drag them into school. They will create unauthorized "pop-up" charter schools and the indoctrination will begin. And again, the irony will fly right over the heads of the people mesmerized by the Orangutan in Chief. These events, and how they are handled, will have a *huge* influence on the November elections. 

Once the GOP sees that they are about to lose the election, the King-who-believes-he-has-absolute-power will do everything he can to cancel or delay the elections, and again, this will just be lapped up by the people he holds in his mysterious spell.

There you have it. I have nailed *every* prediction about this crisis that I have made so far, and this one *will* come true. 

Sorry. See you in August.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> There you have it. I have nailed *every* prediction about this crisis that I have made so far, and this one *will* come true.


LMAO. 
Not even close.



> Once the GOP sees that they are about to lose the election, the King-who-believes-he-has-absolute-power will do everything he can to cancel or delay the elections, and again, this will just be lapped up by the people he holds in his mysterious spell.


Now, who was it who tried to delay an election until the court overruled them.....Hmmmmm


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> LMAO.
> Not even close.
> 
> Now, who was it who tried to delay an election until the court overruled them.....Hmmmmm


I have correctly predicted every aspect of this shitshow beginning in late-February.

Get back to us:

1) August 30
2) November 4
3) One year from now


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> I love how some people think this is all "peaking" and good times are ahead. I hate to break it to you, but this is just getting started.
> 
> Here is a small example of how things are going to get *really* weird further down the line.
> 
> ...


I can only guess but i kind of see about a similar future.
To stay out of jail 2 options are likely.
A- leaving the country
B- having the election online... obviously ****WIN****
so chaos and fear will go up until oct to modify the way the election goes.
Just like G Bush scared people with orange alerts
more deaths(by design) will happen.
It makes no sense predicting only 60,000 for the USA, this is pure propaganda.


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

honkinunit: “Teachers will go strike to save their lives” but may become homeless because they can’t pay rent or buy food. The college kids won’t be getting an education and there will be no jobs. This is the fine line we are in.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

OzarkFathom said:


> Science gave me my guns.
> An incredible amount of research went into each and every one. Same with the ammunition. A firm belief in and intimate practice of Science accompanies every shot.
> 
> This is the heart of a dictator. A signature quality of the leftist mindset.
> ...


I guess I have to remind you that Fascist are right wing. Seems I recall you and I having a long discussion about this previously.

_Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left-right spectrum.[4][5][6]_


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I didn’t mention Facists.
Mao, Stalin.
‘Nuff Said.
It isn’t the right in this country trying to enforce personal behavior and socialize the economy long term as a matter of a “new normal”.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Henry V111, Alexander the Great, D. Trump. 
'Nuff said.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> I have nailed *every* prediction about this crisis that I have made so far, and this one *will* come true.


A legend in one's own mind.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I didn't mention Facists.
> Mao, Stalin.
> 'Nuff Said.
> It isn't the right in this country trying to enforce personal behavior and socialize the economy long term as a matter of a "new normal".


No you didn't mention the word, just the premises, all over the place. Must be frustrating when people can figure things out without, and despite, what you think and say.
LMAO
Wrong
LMAO
WRONG again
LMAO
Not even close
LMAO
whatever word you think makes you sound clever, is funny when you have laughed at people and said things like wearing masks is stupid, this virus is nothing, and pointing to single days where the stock market was on the rise. There is a disconnect with reality.
Tip: 'nuff said means enough said. You don't keep typing after that.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> I guess I have to remind you that Fascist are right wing. Seems I recall you and I having a long discussion about this previously.
> 
> _Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left-right spectrum.[4][5][6]_


Okay, let's look at what actions actually characterize a facist:

1.) Dictatorial power - This is being exhibited by many governors that are exceeding their legal power in an attempt to control what people in their state do. Here in Wisconsin Tony Evers was slapped down on his 11th hour election delay attempt. He has also extended the lock down beyond the time the governor has legal rights to do so.

2.) Forcible suppression of opposition. Using the IRS to target groups was well documented under to Obama administration. Antifa fits the the literal description of a group that uses physical force against those they oppose.

3.) Strong regimentation of society and the economy. The green new deal is an example of doing exactly that. The PC movement is an example of trying to regiment thought. Imposing regulations is a form of regimentation.

The word "fascism" indeed is to describe a historical group on the right. The actions that characterized the historical fascist have been used throughout history by any number of groups on the right or left and has been adopted by the left/progressive/socialist movement we see today.

I know the left likes labels, so I will leave it to them to come up with a suitable name for a group that acts like a fascist, but drives a Prius.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

COVID origin.

Not Fascist China.

Communist China.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Okay, let's look at what actions actually characterize a facist:
> 
> 1.) Dictatorial power - This is being exhibited by many governors that are exceeding their legal power in an attempt to control what people in their state do. Here in Wisconsin Tony Evers was slapped down on his 11th hour election delay attempt. He has also extended the lock down beyond the time the governor has legal rights to do so.
> 
> ...


Ask Orwell about the difference....
_The Spanish Civil war produced a spate of bad literature. Homage to Catalonia is one of the few exceptions and the reason is simple. Orwell was determined to set down the truth as he saw it. This was something that many writers of the Left in 1936-39 could not bring themselves to do. Orwell comes back time and time again in his writings on Spain to those political conditions in the late thirties which fostered intellectual dishonesty: the subservience of the intellectuals of the European Left to the Communist 'line', especially in the case of the Popular Front in Spain where, in his view, the party line could not conceivably be supported by an honest man. Only a few strong souls, Victor Serge and Orwell among them, could summon up the courage to fight the whole tone of the literary establishment and the influence of Communists within it. Arthur Koestler quoted to an audience of Communist sympathizers Thomas Mann's phrase, 'In the long run a harmful truth is better than a useful lie'. The non-Communists applauded; the Communists and their sympathizers remained icily silent. ... It is precisely the immediacy of Orwell's reaction that gives the early sections of Homage its value for the historian. Kaminski, Borkenau, Koestler came with a fixed framework, the ready-made contacts of journalist intellectuals. Orwell came with his eyes alone.

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

When things like this are posted in discussions of fascism, folks simply refuse to address them.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

More moving targets 
No one is questioning this current covid came from China. Although there are some crazy right wing conspiracies floating around.
Quoting smarter ppl is def a better path forward


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Abbott Says Classrooms To Be Closed Remainder of the Year, Announces Plan to Reopen Texas

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronav...s-to-be-closed-remainder-of-the-year/2353303/


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

OzarkFathom said:


> I didn't mention Facists.
> Mao, Stalin.
> 'Nuff Said.
> It isn't the right in this country trying to enforce personal behavior and socialize the economy long term as a matter of a "new normal".


True, you conveniently ignored that the right produces dictators as well. You fall so hard for what the enemies of the US are working to accomplish, divide and conquer. Sadly, their propaganda subtly spread on the internet works very well as they divide our nation. Together we stand, united we fall and has turned into pick a side and never compromise, but will lead to the former statement.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Abbott Says Classrooms To Be Closed Remainder of the Year, Announces Plan to Reopen Texas
> 
> https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronav...s-to-be-closed-remainder-of-the-year/2353303/


So yesterday our moron, Evers, extends the shutdown in Wisconsin till the end of May. Today Ohio and Michigan say they are looking at starting to reopen May 1. I heard there was consortium of midwest governors working together on Covid. I bet they had a meeting and when Evers left the room they said: " Wait till Tony does something, then well do the opposite".


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Okay, let's look at what actions actually characterize a facist:
> 
> 1.) Dictatorial power - This is being exhibited by many governors that are exceeding their legal power in an attempt to control what people in their state do. Here in Wisconsin Tony Evers was slapped down on his 11th hour election delay attempt. He has also extended the lock down beyond the time the governor has legal rights to do so.
> 
> ...


And what about T's tax cuts for the rich? Suppression of news agencies and outright bullying of anyone who doesn't agree with him?

That was my point, extremist on both ends are a bad thing.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

chazpat said:


> True, you conveniently ignored that the right produces dictators as well. You fall so hard for what the enemies of the US are working to accomplish, divide and conquer. Sadly, their propaganda subtly spread on the internet works very well as they divide our nation. Together we stand, united we fall and has turned into pick a side and never compromise, but will lead to the former statement.


Actually if you read any of that link, I responded directly to your Fascist comment.
Pretty thoroughly with Orwell's experience in Spain which contrasts the Fascists with the Communists. But that got no comment from you at all. Not a word.

However, based upon your reply, you are willing to move my direction and in the Spirit of Compromise vote Trump, giving him the same time Obama had.
Good to know.
You know, in the interest of Making America Great Again.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> True, you conveniently ignored that the right produces dictators as well. You fall so hard for what the enemies of the US are working to accomplish, divide and conquer. Sadly, their propaganda subtly spread on the internet works very well as they divide our nation. Together we stand, united we fall and has turned into pick a side and never compromise, but will lead to the former statement.


Misinformation is not just spread on the internet.

Consider this, what was more beneficial to our enemies?

1.) Influencing our election to have candidate A elected vs candidate B or
2.) Throwing the governance of our country into ciaos for what could be a decade or more?

The reality is that Russia could give two schitts who the president is. Neither candidate had significant enough differences in feeling toward Russia to think it would make a difference. One could argue that Hillary's "Russian Reset" policy displayed during her time as SOS would have had the Russians siding with her.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

“After all, what difference does it make?”
Ultimately America will come out of this and probably not too far off.
As soon as Pelosi finishes all of those $13.00 quarts of mail order ice cream in her $24,000.00 fridge, look for her to start the “investigations” back up.

Meanwhile working folks will get back to paying down all this debt we allowed them to saddle us with.


----------



## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

So to sum up this entire thread from my viewpoint....the Left wants to save lives at expense of economy vs the Right that wants to save the economy at the expense of lives.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Unbrockenchain said:


> So to sum up this entire thread from my viewpoint....the Left wants to save lives at expense of economy vs the Right that wants to save the economy at the expense of lives.


Hardly.
Money funds the treatment and the vaccine.
Dead economies kill people.
Money gave New York far more beds and ventilators than they needed.
America remains the most generous nation on earth.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

BlueCheesehead said:


> So yesterday our moron, Evers, extends the shutdown in Wisconsin till the end of May. Today Ohio and Michigan say they are looking at starting to reopen May 1. I heard there was consortium of midwest governors working together on Covid. I bet they had a meeting and when Evers left the room they said: " Wait till Tony does something, then well do the opposite".


Maybe there is a desire to avoid a Michigan style shitshow? Seems smart to me.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> And what about T's tax cuts for the rich? Suppression of news agencies and outright bullying of anyone who doesn't agree with him?
> 
> That was my point, extremist on both ends are a bad thing.


Tax cuts for the rich? That has zero to do with fascism, being a dictator or an authoritarian government. Lower taxes should be a sign of a less authoritarian government. But since you mention it, who pays the bulk of taxes...by a wide margin? If the top 1% pay 40% of the income taxes (as they do) and the top 20% pay 90% of all income taxes, it is pretty darn hard to cut taxes without them seeing the bulk of the benefit.

Suppression of news agencies? When has DJT spied on and prosecuted the press like the previous administration? Does he dress them down on occasion? Yep. I think the reporters use that as an honor badge. We have not seen him use the power of government agencies for suppression of the press, or anyone else.

Bullying? Yes. The majority of the time it is retaliatory. Supporters like the fact that he will stand up for himself, especially with the press. His style certainly does leave much to be desired.

Bringing this all back to Covid, government at all levels are over reaching their authority. Some we are accepting in the belief it is for the common good, but if challenged much would be found unconstitutional (either at state or federal level).


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Maybe there is a desire to avoid a Michigan style shitshow? Seems smart to me.


I am not sure what you mean by shitshow. If you are referring to:

a.) the number of cases - Michigan had more strict safer at home policy than Wisconsin, so relaxing it really is not relevant.

b.) the protests - One does not avoid those by extending the economic pain for another 4 weeks beyond our neighbors. One should expect protests because of his actions.

Tony likes shitshows. Did you see how he handles elections? The next smart thing he does will be his first.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> Maybe there is a desire to avoid a Michigan style shitshow? Seems smart to me.


That horse left the barn when the current governor entered office.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

If one were to go back to the original post I recall Nurse Ben saying this virus would work it's way through the population.

It appears it is and to a large degree has.

Stanford did a study in early April that suggests the number of people that have been infected is 50-80x as high as confirmed cases.

https://spectator.us/stanford-study-suggests-coronavirus-more-widespread-realized/

There is a link to the study results (PDF) buried in the article.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

No mind reader. In my mind “**** show” is the protests, blocking traffic to hospitals, spreading virus makes it not just protest.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> COVID origin.
> 
> Not Fascist China.
> 
> Communist China.


I'm not sure that China is truly communist anymore than the US is truly capitalist. 
I'm not sure why anyone cares that much about the origin of the outbreak either.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Okay, let's look at what actions actually characterize a facist:
> 
> 3.) Strong regimentation of society and the economy.





BlueCheesehead said:


> Tax cuts for the rich? That has zero to do with fascism, being a dictator or an authoritarian government. Lower taxes should be a sign of a less authoritarian government. But since you mention it, who pays the bulk of taxes...by a wide margin? If the top 1% pay 40% of the income taxes (as they do) and the top 20% pay 90% of all income taxes, it is pretty darn hard to cut taxes without them seeing the bulk of the benefit.


Nice fallacy you're echoing. You can show anything if you cherry pick your statistics and leave others out. Here's a much better breakdown considering more statistics for a truer picture:

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/13/tax-day-taxes-statistics/



BlueCheesehead said:


> Suppression of news agencies? When has DJT spied on and prosecuted the press like the previous administration? Does he dress them down on occasion? Yep. I think the reporters use that as an honor badge. We have not seen him use the power of government agencies for suppression of the press, or anyone else.


And where did I say one side is good and the other bad? This all started when I pointed out that, unlike what Ozark indicated, dictators have come from the right as well as the left.



BlueCheesehead said:


> Bullying? Yes. The majority of the time it is retaliatory. Supporters like the fact that he will stand up for himself, especially with the press. His style certainly does leave much to be desired.


If by retaliatory you mean he has come up against people having a different (often better informed) viewpoint he has, then I guess you are right. But adults talk things out rather than resorting to bullying. But if you have no real substance to bring to the table, I guess that is what you turn to. I'm sure that's what he always did in business.



BlueCheesehead said:


> Bringing this all back to Covid, government at all levels are over reaching their authority. Some we are accepting in the belief it is for the common good, but if challenged much would be found unconstitutional (either at state or federal level).


As Carl Mega pointed out in another thread, the Brits were smart enough to turn their lights off during WWII and not claim their rights to leave their lights on were being violated.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> I'm not sure that China is truly communist anymore than the US is truly capitalist.
> I'm not sure why anyone cares that much about the origin of the outbreak either.


You should visit.
Origin?
I thought the Science was important....


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> You should visit.
> Origin?
> I thought the Science was important....


I'd love to see the Terracotta army among other things. Communist countries, socialist countries, capitalist societies, the science is important to all of them. How they fund it and pass the costs on is more interesting. In which countries would rather get sick in?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

127.0.0.1 said:


> View attachment 1325327


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> I'd love to see the Terracotta army among other things. Communist countries, socialist countries, capitalist societies, the science is important to all of them. How they fund it and pass the costs on is more interesting. In which countries would rather get sick in?


I would love to tour that country.
I like the people I've met and work with from China.
But I am pretty sure they are a Communist country.
I prefer home, sick or otherwise.....


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> But I am pretty sure they are a Communist country.


Perhaps once, but not anymore. Not since Chairman Mao. The Chinese have adapted to capitalism remarkably well. Sure the government controls all the banks, but is that really that different to an independent bank in the US for the average worker? I guess the difference is where the profits go.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Mudguard said:


> Perhaps once, but not anymore. Not since Chairman Mao. The Chinese have adapted to capitalism remarkably well. Sure the government controls all the banks, but is that really that different to an independent bank in the US for the average worker? I guess the difference is where the profits go.


There is that pesky thing about a single party state putting a million of their own people in concentration camps.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> Perhaps once, but not anymore. Not since Chairman Mao. The Chinese have adapted to capitalism remarkably well. Sure the government controls all the banks, but is that really that different to an independent bank in the US for the average worker? I guess the difference is where the profits go.


Are you serious?


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> There is that pesky thing about a single party state putting a million of their own people in concentration camps.


How many Afghans have been killed or wounded since Operation Freedom began? I'm not defending China's human rights record, which is likely appalling. 
However from an outsider's point of view, the US doesn't look like a wonderful place to be sick, poor or unemployed.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Are you serious?


How different is a taxpayer bailout of a big bank in 2008 any different? JP Morgan Chase got $25B.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> How different is a taxpayer bailout of a big bank in 2008 any different? JP Morgan Chase got $25B.


Educate yourself....
https://www.history.com/topics/china/tiananmen-square


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Educate yourself....
> https://www.history.com/topics/china/tiananmen-square


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I always liked the Ohio song by Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young when I was a kid. Never knew what it was about.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Mortality rate just keeps climbing. Anybody have a graph of the climbing mortality from when it was supposedly <1% to what it is now? I wonder if it it's relatively consistent.

Almost 27% now in tracked closed cases
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I think there are going to be a lot of dead old people if we "open" the country too soon. 

We need to not do that.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
> 
> I always liked the Ohio song by Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young when I was a kid. Never knew what it was about.


If you put those two links side by side do you find them morally equivalent?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> If you put those two links side by side do you find them morally equivalent?


Do you?
Human conditioning regardless the scale or source.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

_Preliminary results from government lab experiments show that the coronavirus does not survive long in high temperatures and high humidity, and is quickly destroyed by sunlight, providing evidence from controlled tests of what scientists believed - but had not yet proved - to be true._

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sunlight...ould-still-last-through-summer-200745675.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> Do you?
> Human conditioning regardless the scale or source.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


No.
Do you?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> Mortality rate just keeps climbing. Anybody have a graph of the climbing mortality from when it was supposedly <1% to what it is now? I wonder if it it's relatively consistent.
> 
> Almost 27% now in tracked closed cases
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
> ...


I expect many more were/are infected than we will have any accurate handle on.
So the rate will remain in question, but I doubt it is anywhere near 27%.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> No.
> Do you?


I would need to think on it more to specifically address the "equivalent" aspect. I do think it's a provacative question though.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Look at how the two societies and governments reacted.


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I think there are going to be a lot of dead old people if we "open" the country too soon.
> 
> We need to not do that.


I agree but the alternative is more unemployment, loan defaults, evictions, inability to buy food, social discord, etc. I'm not advocating one or the other but both need to be thought of.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Look at how the two societies and governments reacted.


Are we talking about the act, the actual event or something else?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

We are, in the context of this discussion, comparing the Chinese record on human rights with that of the U.S.

Specifically I offered a link, and he countered with what I inferred to be his link of moral equivalence and suggested that from an Auckland point of view there was little difference between the Chinese Communists and American Capitalists. Even stating that China hadn’t been a communist state since Mao.
But when questioned about the moral equivalence of the history contained in the two links, he didn’t respond.


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

What a waste of thread!!!


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

_ Sources also confirmed that China used the wet market theory, which was parroted by the World Health Organization, to disguise and deflect exploration into the origins of the virus. The Chinese Communist Party has restricted research into the pandemic's origins, while documents obtained by The Washington Post this week show that in 2018, U.S. officials warned the lab's work with bats and "shortage" of safety protocols could lead to a "future emerging coronavirus outbreak."_

https://www.yahoo.com/news/costliest-government-coverup-time-growing-120056563.html


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

I am quite computer illiterate but there was a link from a news outlet 3 weeks ago about this. The female scientist that "accidentally" released the virus has been removed from the lab team. She has disappeared and her bio erased from the labs website...


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

I think when you get “removed” from the lab team in China, it has an entirely different meaning than being removed from a team in the U.S.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

_What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab's work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.
............

The Chinese government, meanwhile, has put a total lockdown on information related to the virus origins. Beijing has yet to provide U.S. experts with samples of the novel coronavirus collected from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab that published the novel coronavirus genome on Jan. 11 was quickly shut down by authorities for "rectification." Several of the doctors and journalists who reported on the spread early on have disappeared.
............
_"I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. I think it's a legitimate question that needs to be investigated and answered," he said. "To understand exactly how this originated is critical knowledge for preventing this from happening in the future."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Mudguard said:


> I'm not sure why anyone cares that much about the origin of the outbreak either.


I am quite sure many many people want to know the origin of this.
That fact is integral to the Science.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Now that genome has proved cv19 is not man made it has shifted to China was messy. An investigation is in order, maybe Hilary’s emails will turn up in the process.
Hello Chinagate. While those who claim to have and defend freedom are being led by the nose, parroting Russian propaganda. The new normal


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

theMeat said:


> Now that genome has proved cv19 is not man made it has shifted to China was messy. An investigation is in order, maybe Hilary's emails will turn up in the process.
> Hello Chinagate. While those who claim to have and defend freedom are being led by the nose


So true, Oy!


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Truth conflicts with TDS.....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Truth conflicts with TDS.....


Yeah It's clearly a hoax being carried out by China, WHO, and bill gates.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Yeah It's clearly a hoax being carried out by China, WHO, and bill gates.


Huh?
What is a hoax?
That a Lab in China conducting research is where the virus made the move into the first human?
That the CCP is covering up?
What is this hoax you are referring to?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The Washington Post......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...676200-75df-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Huh?
> What is a hoax?
> That a Lab in China conducting research is where the virus made the move into the first human?
> That the CCP is covering up?
> What is this hoax you are referring to?


Purposeful non-denial
Deflect blame to China and stay in lockstep. You are beyond repair


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Purposeful non-denial
> Deflect blame to China and stay in lockstep. You are beyond repair


You didn't answer a single question.
Not blame.
Simple fact of origin.
Basic Science.
My "repair" is not the issue, LMAO.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

If there is a fire often the first step is to control/stop it.
Investigating is done later, step 2 to prevent other fires if possible.
Now time is for testing, improving the situation.
Talking about where, why is pure smoke that does not help.
2 trillion$$ added to the debt for the USA tax payers.
0 for testing.
There is no need to have lots of education to understand this situation.
It is simple and clear.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Until vaccine we have two control knobs. One is herd immunity, the other is physical distancing. 
-with herd immunity once immunity is strong/spread enough were we get to less than one infection rate we are on a downward trend. Meaning once one person infects less than one other person.
-physical distancing is the only means to control how fast or damaging herd immunity is applied.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> If there is a fire often the first step is to control/stop it.
> Investigating is done later, step 2 to prevent other fires if possible.
> Now time is for testing, improving the situation.
> Talking about where, why is pure smoke that does not help.
> ...


The Origin Is Science, integral to prevention of the spread, the window for which is now passed thanks to the CCP and the WHO who actively covered up, locked down, and engaged in a disinformation campaign that cost Trillions and thousands of lives.

The truth.
Simple as that.
It is what happened.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You didn't answer a single question.
> Not blame.
> Simple fact of origin.
> Basic Science.
> My "repair" is not the issue, LMAO.


Your questions are not questions. They are statements built around conspiracy designed to deflect. When that's all you got...The same way a leader, in a time when unity is needed, calls on swing states to liberate in one breath, and in the next breath points to 2nd amendment rights.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Your questions are not questions. They are statements built around conspiracy designed to deflect. When that's all you got...The same way a leader, in a time when unity is needed, calls on swing states to liberate in one breath, and in the next breath points to 2nd amendment rights.


 Reading comprehension and simple basic communication skills are simply beyond you here Meat.

As usual it has become tedious nonsense trying to have even the most basic of conversations with you. I'll leave you to it.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Reading comprehension and simple basic communication skills are simply beyond you here Meat.
> 
> As usual it has become tedious nonsense trying to have even the most basic of conversations with you. I'll leave you to it.


Conversation with you serves to add validity to ... Funny you want to point to science now, when a coupla weeks ago ... that's hypocritical, shows who and what you follow, and you do follow, and in the end cruel. Deception on this no matter how right you feel, is still confusing reason with emotion, divisive and as a result cruel. 
Here's another parroting bird brain mixed with cruelty, which is almost as funny. Don't be cruel


----------



## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

Maybe, just maybe some on here need to look at other viable news outlets for a different perspective on things. Sift through things get informed and be objective (because nothing is 100% accurate) and try not repeating and believing everything that is being force fed from the mass media "spin machine". If you do then my uneducated ass is telling you that you think way to highly of yourself. Get a grip.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> _Preliminary results from government lab experiments show that the coronavirus does not survive long in high temperatures and high humidity, and is quickly destroyed by sunlight, providing evidence from controlled tests of what scientists believed - but had not yet proved - to be true._
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/sunlight...ould-still-last-through-summer-200745675.html


And you left out the next sentence;

"A briefing on the preliminary results, marked for official use only and obtained by Yahoo News, offers hope that summertime may offer conditions less hospitable for the virus, though experts caution it will by no means eliminate, or even necessarily decrease, new cases of COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. "

It ain't rocket science. There are major outbreaks in places like Ecuador and Indonesia, which are as hot and humid as places can possible be.


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> You didn't answer a single question.
> Not blame.
> Simple fact of origin.
> Basic Science.
> My "repair" is not the issue, LMAO.


I'll answer. There is a lab in China that is being investigated as a possible (if unlikely) source of the virus, but it is not a "simple fact" of origin. Its conjecture.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> If you put those two links side by side do you find them morally equivalent?


Well it's the same. Peaceful protesters were shot and killed by armed forces of their government. We'll probably never know the scale of Tianenmen Square.
There was another protest shooting ten days later in the US too.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Mudguard said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
> 
> I always liked the Ohio song by Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young when I was a kid. Never knew what it was about.


Wide minded thinking. Becoming a rarity.
Have some theories about the demise of American dream, free thinking, healthy social morality. Think 60s generation was the height, been dwindling ever since. To the point where we have reality tv host as prez.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Wide minded thinking. Becoming a rarity.
> Have some theories about the demise of American dream, free thinking, healthy social morality. Think 60s generation was the height, been dwindling ever since. To the point where we have reality tv host as prez.


Did not build D wall
Did not make it great again
Did not protect
3 strikes
out
What about climate change wich is a much bigger crisis?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> I expect many more were/are infected than we will have any accurate handle on.
> So the rate will remain in question, but I doubt it is anywhere near 27%.


It's not just you. Stanford did a study that suggests 50-80 times more people have had it than confirmed cases.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

Using "closed cases" for mortality rate is a wrong measure. First, declaring and reporting a case closed due to recovery is very much lagging and not a priority for medical workers. The VAST majority of cases are mild where people to told to go home and ride it out. It is not, nor should it be, a priority to followup to confirm and log those people as recovered.

Even using deaths/positive tests is not an accurate measure of mortality because many people that have had it did not qualify to have a test.

Finally, people need to remember, the US is reporting Covid deaths as people that die "with" the virus, not "from" the virus.

I know you know the above, but some here do not seem to understand it.


----------



## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Wide minded thinking. Becoming a rarity.
> Have some theories about the demise of American dream, free thinking, healthy social morality. Think 60s generation was the height, been dwindling ever since. To the point where we have reality tv host as prez.


The current leaders are that 60's generation. The 60's spawned some "ideas" that were put into action. Sadly one of the causalities was the family. This is especially true of the black family. The number of black owned businesses plummeted starting the 60's as well.

As far as free thinking is concerned, I agree. Sadly, college campuses, which used to champion free thought, now seek homogeneous thought. Prejudice against conservative professors and speakers is well documented.


----------



## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

33red said:


> Did not build D wall
> Did not make it great again
> Did not protect
> 3 strikes
> ...


Lol....does your azz ever get jealous of the chit that comes out of your mouth.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> The current leaders are that 60's generation. The 60's spawned some "ideas" that were put into action. Sadly one of the causalities was the family. This is especially true of the black family. The number of black owned businesses plummeted starting the 60's as well.
> 
> As far as free thinking is concerned, I agree. Sadly, college campuses, which used to champion free thought, now seek homogeneous thought. Prejudice against conservative professors and speakers is well documented.


Agreed. In general, as of late smarter, kinder people tend to be less politically conservative. 
When we only test ppl who are admitted to hospitals with enough symptoms, not knowing there's plenty of untested positives walking around is hardly a eureka.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

33red said:


> Did not build D wall
> Did not make it great again
> Did not protect
> 3 strikes
> ...


Don't think many want to talk about global warming up in here


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

2old said:


> Lol....does your azz ever get jealous of the chit that comes out of your mouth.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


You think that's funny, I see a lack of courage on your part


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

2old said:


> Lol....does your azz ever get jealous of the chit that comes out of your mouth.


Possibly, but me thinks the crazy dude is right.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> The current leaders are that 60's generation. The 60's spawned some "ideas" that were put into action. Sadly one of the causalities was the family. This is especially true of the black family. The number of black owned businesses plummeted starting the 60's as well.
> 
> As far as free thinking is concerned, I agree. Sadly, college campuses, which used to champion free thought, now seek homogeneous thought. Prejudice against conservative professors and speakers is well documented.


No question about it, the "morality" of the 60's set into motion a rapid destruction of the family. Daniel Patrick Moynihan recognized the role of this germination of the single parent household as the single greatest cause of poverty in a time when LBJ was touting his "Great Society".
No question about it.
A matter of historical record.

The divorce rate increased dramatically in the 60's and 70's.
Leveling off in the 80's and 90's. But the single family household numbers continued to rise. Now around 25% of America's children have only one parent. That is poison to any society. I becomes self perpetuating and creates a societal spiral of poverty along with many other declines in areas like mental and physical health, education, increases in drug abuse, and suicide.

Yep. 
The 60's.
Hardly a time of moral enlightenment.
All the pain.
All the misery.
A country is only as strong as its Families. 
People run around preaching empathy, love for children, but they sure as hell forgot how to live it. Their actions prove it.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> No question about it, the "morality" of the 60's set into motion a rapid destruction of the family. Daniel Patrick Moynihan recognized the role of this germination of the single parent household as the single greatest cause of poverty in a time when LBJ was touting his "Great Society".
> No question about it.
> A matter of historical record.
> 
> ...


This thread already has a topic that you're wrong about. Hardly think you want to talk about orange man's family values...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Yep.
> The 60's.
> Hardly a time of moral enlightenment.


Well at least they didn't have $hitty 80's pop songs yet.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...other-countries-to-live-with-just-one-parent/


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York.https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-moynihan-report-an-annotated-edition/404632/


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...other-countries-to-live-with-just-one-parent/


So we should strive to be more like China?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Well at least they didn't have $hitty 80's pop songs yet.


This may be hard for you to do, an exercise in futility, but you might think to examine the lyrics for a change.
Or perhaps you really are of the opinion that people committed to staying together is, as you say, "shitty".

That would certainly confirm the premise.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> So we should strive to be more like China?


Are you really that incredibly narrow and simplistic?
Perhaps simply in a humorous mood......
l can give you the benefit of the doubt, until you remove it.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> This thread already has a topic that you're wrong about. Hardly think you want to talk about orange man's family values...


You misjudge me again.
I find his example on that front repulsive.
But don't try and convince anyone it does not comport perfectly well with your personal preference for 60's moral values, minus the dope and alcohol....


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You misjudge me again.
> I find his example on that front repulsive.
> But don't try and convince anyone it does not comport perfectly well with your personal preference for 60's moral values, minus the dope and alcohol....


Nah, didn't misjudge. You take parts you like, don't except reality you no like, right on cue.
Look at a list of countries and their divorce rate. Or look at our country over a longer period of time and the biggest driver of divorce is affluence.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

"Accept".
It becomes tediously distracting when it becomes so common.
Now, how about 150 years.....
https://www.insider.com/divorce-rate-changes-over-time-2019-1

As for your point about Trump's "family values" to quote you exactly, I responded directly, specifically, and completely.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> This may be hard for you to do, an exercise in futility, but you might think to examine the lyrics for a change.
> Or perhaps you really are of the opinion that people committed to staying together is, as you say, "shitty".
> 
> That would certainly confirm the premise.


People have different music preferences, I guess I never developed a taste for sappy pop songs.



OzarkFathom said:


> Are you really that incredibly narrow and simplistic?
> Perhaps simply in a humorous mood......
> l can give you the benefit of the doubt, until you remove it.


The article you linked said the US had the most single parent households and China had the least. You said that single parent households are one of the great downfalls of America so logic would suggest that you believe China is better in that regard.

The article didn't seem to imply any negative connotations to single parent families, rather it focused on the correlation between small families and economic development.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

At the outset of the COVID-19 outbreak, the U.S. had around 200,000 invasive ventilators.

It appears that at the height of the outbreak in the U.S., on April 14, the number of invasive ventilators in use was 16,631.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

Does anyone have other data? I've always thought we had enough, but even to me the 16,631 number seems low.

Also, Mass Gen Hospital in Chelsea, Mass. went out and randomly tested people on the street and found 32% had been infected with COVID-19, Vs. the 1.9% rate found by testing those who were symptomatic.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tudy-tested-positive-COVID-19-antibodies.html

This would put the Infection Fatality Rate at around 1/16th of the CFR.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> "Accept".
> It becomes tediously distracting when it becomes so common.
> Now, how about 150 years.....
> https://www.insider.com/divorce-rate-changes-over-time-2019-1
> ...


Thanks mr grammar police. When that's all ya got...
Let's look at facts, not some opinion piece you cherry pick. 
This thread has a topic. Can you please stick to one topic at a time to be closed minded about? Sorry, this may be confusing.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> The article you linked said the US had the most single parent households and China had the least. You said that single parent households are one of the great downfalls of America so logic would suggest that you believe China is better in that regard.


Actually that is a logical fallacy because it ignores many other contravening realities in China.
I suspect you are being flippant because those realities are so obvious.
But could be I'm mistaken.

I obviously won't hold you to any particular taste in music, so we can move on from that one. I posted it for the lyric, not the presentation.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> . Thanks mr grammar police. When that's all ya got...


That excuse is a bit used up at this point.
As for "all ya got", that is laughable in light of my posting history hereabouts....

I didn't cherry pick. That reflects 150 years....
I posted the complete piece.
You, on the other hand, regularly post without crediting the source, which is almost as habitual as using terrible grammar, spelling (not typo errors, there is a difference, obvious in many cases), and an ego driven blaming of others for it.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> Actually that is a logical fallacy because it ignores many other contravening realities in China.
> I suspect you are being flippant because those realities are so obvious.
> But could be I'm mistaken.
> 
> I obviously won't hold you to any particular taste in music, so we can move on from that one. I posted it for the lyric, not the presentation.


Then maybe you could explain your point in posting the article. I honestly don't get it.

And I think the lyrics on that song you linked are whiny and sappy too but again just personal taste. No offense to those who enjoy that sort of thing.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> Then maybe you could explain your point in posting the article. I honestly don't get it.
> 
> And I think the lyrics on that song you linked are whiny and sappy too but again just personal taste. No offense to those who enjoy that sort of thing.


Appreciate your candor.
The Pew link was simply to back up my point that the U.S. had a huge number of single parent households compared to the rest of the world that was congruent with American societal change, post 60's.
China as a society was isolated from those changes, both in cause and effect. 
( or in Meat's terms, "affect"  )


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say it, but Oz is partly right, but way too simplistic as usual. 

Indeed, we lost our moral compass in the 60s, and have suffered the consequences as a country since. But let's not forget what brought about the '60s crisis of trust and confidence in the status quo (the Establishment), which triggered a generational (adolescent?, immature?) search for new paradigms.

The 60s were a response to:

Institutional racism
Institutional patriarchy
The travesty and lies surrounding Viet Nam
CIA orchestrated assassinations and coups abroad
FBI domestic surveillance 
Environmental degradation

Our whole system seemed to be rotten to the core and our institutions seemed incapable of reform. Amidst this cultural confusion, as all values and assumptions were being questioned, the good was thrown out with the bad.

In many ways, our country has never gotten over this identity crisis. As we struggle to reconcile divergent views of history, we grow ever more divided. We can't even unite when faced with a pandemic. Trump cravenly exploits this, which is why I can't support him. 

I believe America is a great country, but if we can't accept our complicated history and move forward with our best values intact, perhaps the rot and corruption of our worst instincts runs as deep as some in the 60s suspected.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> At the outset of the COVID-19 outbreak, the U.S. had around 200,000 invasive ventilators.
> 
> It appears that at the height of the outbreak in the U.S., on April 14, the number of invasive ventilators in use was 16,631.
> 
> ...


Pence stated this morning that not a single American has been denied a ventilator. As for the infection rate, though the full picture would require a more widespread sampling, I don't think 27% is anywhere close to an actual U.S. fatality rate. We keep hearing about testing, but I look for that clamoring to dissipate when the nature of the actual fatality rate begins trending down under the scrutiny. The defining factor in this particular bug encounter has been the compression of time and how that feeds the panic.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

veloborealis said:


> It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say it, but Oz is partly right, but way too simplistic as usual.
> 
> Indeed, we lost our moral compass in the 60s, and have suffered the consequences as a country since. But let's not forget what brought about the '60s crisis of trust and confidence in the status quo (the Establishment), which triggered a generational (adolescent?, immature?) search for new paradigms.
> 
> ...


Accepting much of what you posted there leaves no bad taste in my mouth at all.
Truth is Truth.
I always said that voting for Trump was the biggest social compromise I ever made.
But you guys on the Left simply didn't appreciate my effort at compromise....


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Just an observation: CV19 doesn't give a hoot about your religious, political, or environmental opinions, worthy as they may be, it rains on the rich and poor alike.

Can we keep the thread medical please?


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

A word that comes often is fact.
Just check and compared to many countries the USA deaths(per capita) are about 2.5 times higher.
No need to blame here or there, many countries are handling this terrible virus in ways that tend to diminish the terrible potential.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Just check and compared to many countries the USA deaths(per capita) are about 2.5 times higher.


Post your facts.
Link to their source.
Give me an accurate accounting.
Give me the total number of infection/deaths by country to support your implication concerning the U.S. per capita death rate.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Accepting much of what you posted there leaves no bad taste in my mouth at all.
> Truth is Truth.
> I always said that voting for Trump was the biggest social compromise I ever made.
> But you guys on the Left simply didn't appreciate my effort at compromise....


Never heard you say that. And your efforts say otherwise as well. But thanx for a glimpse of that


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

veloborealis said:


> It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say it, but Oz is partly right, but way too simplistic as usual.
> 
> Indeed, we lost our moral compass in the 60s, and have suffered the consequences as a country since. But let's not forget what brought about the '60s crisis of trust and confidence in the status quo (the Establishment), which triggered a generational (adolescent?, immature?) search for new paradigms.
> 
> ...


Some good points that'r hard to ignore, or should be. Think after ww2 with an exploding middle class and big emphasis on better quality of life for all, including education, Vietnam came along and having to many smart open minded people became a problem. Been a dumbing down ever since.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

In Italy, the death rate stands at about 13 percent, and in the United States, around 4.3 percent, according to the latest figures on known cases and deaths. Even in South Korea, where widespread testing helped contain the outbreak, 2 percent of people who tested positive for the virus have died, recent data shows.
These supposed death rates also appear to vary widely by geography: Germany's fatality rate appears to be roughly one-tenth of Italy's, and Los Angeles's about half of New York's. Among U.S. states, Michigan, at around 7 percent, is at the high end, while Wyoming, which reported its first two deaths this week, has one of the lowest death rates, at about 0.7 percent.
Virology experts say there is no evidence that any strain of the virus, officially known as SARS-CoV-2, has mutated to become more severe in some parts of the world than others, raising the question of why there appears to be so much variance from country to country.

Determining death rates is especially challenging in the midst of a pandemic, while figures are necessarily fluid. Fatality rates based on comparing deaths, which are relatively easy to count, to infections, which are not, almost certainly overestimate the true lethality of the virus, epidemiologists say. Health officials and epidemiologists have estimated there are five to 10 people with undetected infections for every confirmed case in some communities, and at least one estimate suggests there are far more.


"To know the fatality rate you need to know how many people are infected and how many people died from the disease," said Ali H. Mokdad, a professor of health metrics sciences at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. "We know how many people are dying, but we don't know how many people are infected."
In fact, even the number of people dying is a moving target. Covid-19 deaths that happen at home appear to be widely underreported. And New York City increased its death count by more than 3,700 on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.
But the missing data on deaths in the deaths-to-infections ratio is still almost certain to be dwarfed by the expected increase in the denominator when the total number of infections is better understood, epidemiologists say. The statistic typically cited by mayors and governors at Covid-19 news conferences relies on a data set that includes mostly people whose symptoms were severe enough to be tested.
Epidemiologists call it "severity bias." It is why the fatality rate in Wuhan, China, where the outbreak began, was reported to be between 2 percent and 3.4 percent before it was revised to 1.4 percent, and it may yet be lower.
One intriguing case study for epidemiologists looking for the true fatality rate is the Diamond Princess cruise ship, which became a kind of natural experiment when nearly all of its 3,711 passengers and crew members were tested for the coronavirus after an outbreak on board.

The ship's "case fatality rate," which included only those who showed symptoms, was 2.6 percent, according to a study by researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, while the "infection fatality rate," which included those who tested positive yet remained asymptomatic, was 1.3 percent. (A cruise ship, in which people are in a confined space, is not representative of the more dynamic situation in cities). The known number of coronavirus cases worldwide is about two million, and at least 127,000 of those patients have died. The United States has an estimated 600,000 reported cases and more than 25,000 deaths, the most in the world. But many people infected with the virus have no symptoms, or only mild ones, and appear in no official tally.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-death-rate.html

The closest approximation would probably come from widespread antibody testing in the future.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> Post your facts.
> Link to their source.
> Give me an accurate accounting.
> Give me the total number of infection/deaths by country to support your implication concerning the U.S. per capita death rate.


There is a very good reason i did not put a link.
You cannot say this is wrong.
I did not do some cherry picking to prove a point.
Just search coronavirus deaths with a country name you will get a #
do it with a few countries
than check populations #
and you will see facts 
not biased by me others trying to select some numbers.
Canada was at 1,510 and USA over 39,000


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> I don't think 27% is anywhere close to an actual U.S. fatality rate..


I don't think anyone has ever suggested a 27% fatality rate for this, have they?


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

33red said:


> A word that comes often is fact.
> Just check and compared to many countries the USA deaths(per capita) are about 2.5 times higher.
> No need to blame here or there, many countries are handling this terrible virus in ways that tend to diminish the terrible potential.


It's very difficult to compare death rates country to country without taking into account many variables, including population density.

Canada, for example, has a population density of only 4 people per square kilometer. Wyoming has a population density 3 or 4 times as great but only 3 deaths per million in Wyoming, with Canada racking up 13 times that death rate.

Canada has 100 times the death rate of Guatemala, but again, that is a completely meaningless statistic.

It leaves out way too many variables to be anything close to a meaningful comparison.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> It's very difficult to compare death rates country to country without taking into account many variables, including population density.
> 
> Canada, for example, has a population density of only 4 people per square kilometer. Wyoming has a population density 3 or 4 times as great but only 3 deaths per million in Wyoming, with Canada racking up 13 times that death rate.
> 
> ...


Germany is at 4,547 deaths.
Their population = 83,783,942 
You can look, facts do exists.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> I don't think anyone has ever suggested a 27% fatality rate for this, have they?


Here.....



WHALENARD said:


> Mortality rate just keeps climbing. Anybody have a graph of the climbing mortality from when it was supposedly <1% to what it is now? I wonder if it it's relatively consistent.
> 
> Almost 27% now in tracked closed cases
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
> ...


In US.....
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

33red said:


> Germany is at 4,547 deaths.
> Their population = 83,783,942
> You can look, facts do exists.


You never provide links.
You post information as if it were your own never crediting your source.


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> You never provide links.
> You post information as if it were your own never crediting your source.


I simply do searches on the internet.
I guess many people would get about similar #.
If you are looking for info just look it is not hidden.
You can check to see if i am trying to use **specials #** 
or if they are facts.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

33red said:


> Germany is at 4,547 deaths.
> Their population = 83,783,942
> You can look, facts do exists.


The worldodmeter site I referenced has the facts.
You never make any sense.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Here.....
> 
> In US.....
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/


I don't understand where Whalenard got 27%.
I've pretty much lost track of any point anyone is making now!

It's gotten so bad that 33red almost makes sense!


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> The worldodmeter site I referenced has the facts.
> You never make any sense.


According to your source now it is at 4,548

​so you just do not trust your source.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

BlueCheesehead said:


> He took the Worldometer "resolved case" data and concluded deaths/resolved cases was somehow relevant. I explained a few posts back why it is meaningless.


I just stated what they were. My inference was simply the mortality trajectory continues to climb and was curious if anybody had any data on what that curve may look like. I realize 27% is not representative of the overall death rate. The reason why I do think it's relative though is because it, along with death rate globally, continues to climb despite more widespread testing. Somewhere buried in this thread JB Weld posted an interesting video as to why that trend will continue and so far it appears to be holding true.

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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Depends on how widespread immunity is, and it’s effectiveness and duration in question. No doubt less ppl means slower spread. Would think in a country like Italy, with less large plots of natural land the virus, followed by immunity happens quicker, more thoroughly.
Looks to be premature to say USA as a whole is on the downside. Maybe in terms number of people, given cities more likely to spread sooner


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> Another 100 posts or so and this thread will have caught up with the 50+ Joke Thread. I wonder which will have more lasting impact.


Yeah, but which one is funnier


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

This one for sure

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Keep it apolitical and just keep arguing the unarguable and I won't close this.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

"A flood of new research suggests that far more people have had the coronavirus without any symptoms, fueling hope that it will turn out to be much less lethal than originally feared."

None of these numbers can be fully trusted because they're based on flawed and inadequate testing, said Dr. Michael Mina of Harvard's School of Public Health. 
Collectively, though, they suggest "we have just been off the mark by huge, huge numbers" for estimating total infections, he said.

https://apnews.com/d20f283318c86bec3cc2d3d7936a9612


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

More "Vit-a-Men-D" 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3571484

212 (100.0%) cases of Covid-2019

Mean serum 
49 (23.1%) were mild = 31.2 ng/ml
59 (27.8%) were ordinary = 27.4 ng/ml 
56 (26.4%) were severe = 21.2 ng/ml
48 (22.6%) were critical = 17.1 ng/ml

Also, for each standard deviation increase in serum (OH)D, the odds of having
a mild clinical outcome rather than a severe outcome were approximately 7.94 times (OR=0.126,
p<0.001) while interestingly, the odds of having a mild clinical outcome rather than a critical
outcome were approximately more than 19.61 times (OR=0.051, p<0.001).


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

OzarkFathom said:


> "A flood of new research suggests that far more people have had the coronavirus without any symptoms, fueling hope that it will turn out to be much less lethal than originally feared."
> 
> None of these numbers can be fully trusted because they're based on flawed and inadequate testing, said Dr. Michael Mina of Harvard's School of Public Health.
> Collectively, though, they suggest "we have just been off the mark by huge, huge numbers" for estimating total infections, he said.
> ...


Even though I've been reading and researching on this every day for a month, I guess I somehow missed the part where anyone estimated total infections. All I've ever read about was percent positive out of those tested, both of which we have always known paint an incomplete picture without universal testing. So could someone point me toward knowledgeable estimates that we are "way off the mark on", if they even exist?


----------



## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

Where are we at with the whole 28 days thing? We should be getting close. LOL


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

...aaaaannnd it has just hit the assisted living facility where my last living, 91 year old aunt lives in Illinois. 
Two days ago there was 1 case, yesterday there were 5 cases, and one of the residents keeps wandering the halls despite being ordered to stay in her room. Not sure if she's one of the infected though, yet...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

News - Research in Germany

Contains what appears to be credible info on infection/mortality rates....

http://www.uni-goettingen.de/de/doc...053908de337e1045cf612.pdf/COVID-19 update.pdf


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

This suggests a much higher infection rate and a much lower death rate than has been put forth.
It seems to me, if true, the thing that made this so alarming was that it spread silently and broadly in high density populations undetected and when the death count started infection/spread time appeared highly compressed.

_
Actual number of infections may already have reached several tens of millions
The number of confirmed cases for the novel coronavirus disease COVID-19 officially issued by countries and widely commented on by national and international media outlets dramatically understates the true number of infections, a recent report from the University of Göttingen suggests. Dr Christian Bommer and Professor Sebastian Vollmer from Göttingen University have used estimates of COVID-19 mortality and time until death from a recent study published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases to test the quality of official case records. Their data shows that countries have only discovered on average about 6% of coronavirus infections and the true number of infected people worldwide may already have reached several tens of millions. Their study is available online at_ Chair of Development Economics / Centre for Modern Indian Studies (CeMIS) - Georg-August-UniversitÃ¤t GÃ¶ttingen.

News - Research in Germany


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

My Brother-in-Law’s grandmother is on her last legs with COVID in STL. Refused ventilator. She’s 93. 

He was planning on going out there to pack up her stuff with his dad, but common sense (his pregnant wife) prevailed. 


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> Even though I've been reading and researching on this every day for a month, I guess I somehow missed the part where anyone estimated total infections. All I've ever read about was percent positive out of those tested, both of which we have always known paint an incomplete picture without universal testing. So could someone point me toward knowledgeable estimates that we are "way off the mark on", if they even exist?


I think we are only beginning to get this sort of information, so you haven't really missed any estimates. Did you see the piece on Massachusetts General going into Chelsea to randomly test 200 people? The infection rate, based on testing those with symptoms was about 2% and their one random test on the street came up with 32% positive for the antibodies.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tudy-tested-positive-COVID-19-antibodies.html

I think this is from a Boston Globe piece behind a paywall.

Hardly an earth shattering study, but it is interesting. There was another estimate coming out of Santa Clara county in California that suggests a similar trend.

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-antibodies-widespread-in-santa-clara.html


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> I think we are only beginning to get this sort of information, so you haven't really missed any estimates. Did you see the piece on Massachusetts General going into Chelsea to randomly test 200 people? The infection rate, based on testing those with symptoms was about 2% and their one random test on the street came up with 32% positive for the antibodies. Hardly an earth shattering study, but it is interesting. I think there was a similar estimate coming out of a town in California at about 15%.


I don't think I've missed anything either, that's why I think the Harvard dude's statement "Collectively, though, they suggest "we have just been off the mark by huge, huge numbers" is wildly irresponsible and will be instantly politicized.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

In2falling said:


> More "Vit-a-Men-D"
> 
> https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3571484
> 
> ...


The nice thing about this is that we probably need vitamin D supplementation anyway for good general health, so it's a no lose strategy (as long as you don't OD). Looking at the PDF, though, I didn't see what constituted a supplementation level that corresponded to better outcomes, other than "normal". Did I miss it?


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> The nice thing about this is that we probably need vitamin D supplementation anyway for good general health, so it's a no lose strategy (as long as you don't OD). Looking at the PDF, though, I didn't see what constituted a supplementation level that corresponded to better outcomes, other than "normal". Did I miss it?


Benefits and dangers of supplementing with Vitamin D





From the research I have done with all my lockdown/stay at home time, these researchers/experts say optimal blood level of 40ng/ml to 60ng/ml. Which can vary depending on person size/weight and that obese people need more. They say that 5000ui to 10,000ui day should get you to that level or 35ui per pound of weight a day. These researchers also saying it is very hard to over dose, would need to take like 30,000/40,000ui a day for months with lots of calcium for it to be an issue.

Large weight loss can mean significant vitamin D gain
https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2011/05/weight-loss-vitamin-D.html

My theroy is this is how our ancestors stayed Vitamin D sufficient in the winter. Worked outside all summer, getting lots of sun and getting fat with lots of food. Then gets released during the winter months when they did not have much food, half-life of D is about 60 days.

Obesity Linked to Severe Coronavirus Disease, Especially for Younger Patient
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-obesity-higher-risk.html


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Looks like the censors have been hard at work. Not sure why this is gone:



> Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
> He took the Worldometer "resolved case" data and concluded deaths/resolved cases was somehow relevant. I explained a few posts back why it is meaningless.


I have no time for that, nor will I support it with my clicks.

Adios.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHO warning started in December

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...a-9040-68981f488eed_story.html?outputType=amp


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

theMeat said:


> WHO warning started in December
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...a-9040-68981f488eed_story.html?outputType=amp


B level people in the U.S. CDC knew in November BTW. How virulent and extremely contagious this was, was known in November by US researchers. Not pulling this from anywhere but 127.0.0.1 speaking directly to those researchers, cuz I am connected to them in a few ways...

at any rate, --it was known-- and endless downstream information and alerting clusterf**ks happened afterward. China government is the ultimate cult of personality and they worried more about image than anything else, so hid as much of this for as long as possible...that did not help.

The problem really is, this is so contagious with zero symptoms, and the people in power knew this and knew the -only- I mean only way to stop it would be freeze everyone in position worldwide for a month...obviously impossible for a number of reasons.

The fact is, every living soul on earth will be, or has been exposed, it is only a matter of time...and again, the goal of distancing is reduce the load on hospitals during crisis waves. It cannot be stopped, will not be stopped. Only mitigated. A vaccine is problematic. The chance this turns into the 'common cold' is the most likely outcome.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> B level people in the U.S. CDC knew in November BTW. How virulent and extremely contagious this was, was known in November by US researchers. Not pulling this from anywhere but 127.0.0.1 speaking directly to those researchers, cuz I am connected to them in a few ways...
> 
> at any rate, --it was known-- and endless downstream information and alerting clusterf**ks happened afterward. China government is the ultimate cult of personality and they worried more about image than anything else, so hid as much of this for as long as possible...that did not help.


China is not the only one who puts image above all. When you're led by ego, and not heart and mind bad things abound


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Oil continues to plummet 
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-april-20-2020-222036152.html


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> China is not the only one who puts image above all. When you're led by ego, and not heart and mind bad things abound


What does that even mean?
Sounds pretty absurd.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Yet futures are way up. Oil, the new tulip bulb?

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Oil continues to plummet
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-april-20-2020-222036152.html


So what?
States are beginning to open back up.
Oil is a commodity.
It will remain so for a long long time.
Most realize this.
Some do not.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> What does that even mean?
> Sounds pretty absurd.


Yeah reading comprehension not your thing.
Didn't take long for you to start ****, again


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

one more things about those in the labs who work directly on this problem, removed from any BS...just facts

everyone must test weekly at one lab, 
they have a set time and place for each person on a schedule for the
5-15 minute test. 

But you get 4 hours pay for the test...so it blows if you are off, 
but gettin paid 4 hours for 15 minute test and the commute helps

this lab makes the tests too, so 'use what you make' applies here


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Yeah reading comprehension not your thing


Now, where have I heard that before.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
My reading is simply better than your writing.
The record of that is clear.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> ^Yet futures are way up. Oil, the new tulip bulb?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Futures way up?
As of this am mixed at best.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Now, where have I heard that before.
> Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


Not unusual for you to take credit where not due
Imitating you I'd have to do time travel back and get everything wrong


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

My account is rising steadily.....
Money talks and B.S. walks.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Futures way up?
> As of this am mixed at best.


https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject....ow-but-three-times-that-in-autumn-11587392745

$11 a barrel, 3X that in fall

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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Not unusual for you to take credit where not due
> Imitating you I'd have to do time travel back and get everything wrong


Perfect example.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

WHALENARD said:


> https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject....ow-but-three-times-that-in-autumn-11587392745
> 
> $11 a barrel, 3X that in fall
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Supply and demand is simply beyond the grasp of some......
l'm sure Meat is selling his oil shares, LMAO....
The panic sellers are funding my impending retirement.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Supply and demand is simply beyond the grasp of some......
> l'm sure Meat is selling his oil shares, LMAO....


No, buying low selling hi is hardly a eureka. And it's low, despite what you were saying...

Tax rebates and research funding to keep prices low , stopping production to bring prices up not something I support. Some ppl get it , some don't


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject....ow-but-three-times-that-in-autumn-11587392745
> 
> $11 a barrel, 3X that in fall
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Oh, you're talking 3-4-5 months. Let's hope


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Supply and demand is simply beyond the grasp of some......
> l'm sure Meat is selling his oil shares, LMAO....
> The panic sellers are funding my impending retirement.


You trying to get ppl to join in with your weak ego bs just shows more of your character. Tapping ppl smarter than you is your only option and your best path forward.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Oh, you're talking 3-4-5 months. Let's hope


Admittedly a provocateur post. Not a fan of speculative forces on markets.

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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> My account is rising steadily.....
> Money talks and B.S. walks.


Yes, this isn't the first time you pointed out it's a good time to invest because the economy is shut because ppl are afraid of dying or considerate enough not to spread it to someone else


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Yes, this isn't the first time you pointed out it's a good time to invest because the economy is shut because ppl are afraid of dying or considerate enough not to spread it to someone else


Your economy might be shut.
Mine is not.
And I'll warrant your lifestyle contributed more to the spread than did mine if there is any difference.
I wasn't hosting parties with 70 people as you were.
How many did you put at risk in NY with that?
Reality bites.
People are moving on with their lives.
What you do is your choice, not mine.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Your economy might be shut.
> Mine is not.
> And I'll warrant your lifestyle contributed more to the spread than did mine if there is any difference.
> I wasn't hosting parties with 70 people as you were.
> ...


Many of the ppl at my party were docs and nurses. The general consensus at the time was it's not bad. Certainly not as bad as the fear. All these ppl have since changed their mind, except you


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Many of the ppl at my party were docs and nurses. *The general consensus at the time was it's not bad. Certainly not as bad as the fear. *All these ppl have since changed their mind, except you


Wrong.
I was taking precautions while you were partying.
That is a fact.

*Now, where have I heard that before?*


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong.
> I was taking precautions while you were partying.
> That is a fact.
> 
> *Now, where have I heard that before?*


More bs. My party was first weekend in March. You were laughing at ppl for suggesting masks weeks after. Then you went mask expert on us. 
Shall I dig it up, or you want to go edit them first


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> More bs. My party was first weekend in March. You were laughing at ppl for suggesting masks weeks after. Then you went mask expert on us.
> Shall I dig it up, or you want to go edit them first


Recommended not using masks in general public.
Didn't use masks.
Didn't have parties with 70 people.
Washed hands regularly and avoided crowds.
ALL recommended by Science.
All you scoffed at or violated.

Simple Facts.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> People are moving on with their lives.
> .


More bs. 
Has been brought to my attention by members that your pm-ing other members to get them in on agreeing with you to protect your weak ego bs. You're like junior high school girly pathetic


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> More bs.
> Has been brought to my attention by members that your pm-ing other members to get them in on agreeing with you to protect your weak ego bs. You're like junior high school girly pathetic


Wrong again.
Post the evidence.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Wrong again.
> Post the evidence.


How low can you go


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> How low can you go


You made the accusation.
You said that other members were discussing my PMs with you.



> Has been brought to my attention by members that your pm-ing other members to get them in on agreeing with you to protect your weak ego bs.


You brought it up.
I'm calling your bluff.
Post your evidence.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Recommended not using masks in general public.
> Didn't use masks.
> Didn't have parties with 70 people.
> Washed hands regularly and avoided crowds.
> ...


Yes, and simply not related to what you were promoting at the time


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Post your evidence on other members discussing my PMs with you.

Stop deflecting.

Tell the Truth Meat.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You made the accusation.
> You said that other members were discussing my PMs with you.
> 
> You brought it up.
> ...


Not something I would do. You'v already brought enough divisiveness to this place. Won't prove anything to you anyhow. Simple facts...
Have paid you enough attention. You do you and I will try not to respond to your attacks. Find that harder when they're not directed at me.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Post your evidence on other members discussing my PMs with you.
> 
> Stop deflecting.
> 
> Tell the Truth Meat.


Will say members told me you were nicer in private, which I coulda guessed. Also was told to maybe cut you some slack, which I took to heart and agreed that I wasn't always appropriate. That's called intellectual honesty. Try it


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Not something I would do. You'v already brought enough divisiveness to this place. Won't prove anything to you anyhow. Simple facts...
> Have paid you enough attention. You do you and I will try not to respond to your attacks. Find that harder when they're not directed at me.


I thought as much.
Painted yourself in a little corner here.
You either made the whole thing up or you betrayed the confidence of another member or someone with access to my PMs.
Either way, it reveals plenty.
Such PMs do not exist:


> _ your pm-ing other members to get them in on agreeing with you to protect your weak ego bs._


So I expect you made the whole thing up, and when called on it, realizing you were caught, want to drop the whole thing.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Will say members told me you were nicer in private, which I coulda guessed. Also was told to maybe cut you some slack, which I took to heart and agreed that I wasn't always appropriate. That's called intellectual honesty. Try it


Intellectual Honesty?
LMAO, you inject conversations about my PMs laced with personal invectives and falsehoods and suggest I "try it".
You don't have a clue what the term means.
I'm Done with this.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Oil goes negative. 

That's it, I'm done driving...stopping every 20 miles to dump a gallon of gas in the woods 'cuz my tank keeps overfilling LOL


literally though...take my oil PLEASE I will pay you to remove it from my facility


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Intellectual Honesty?
> 
> You don't have a clue what the term means.
> I'm Done with this.


Would guess your last part is more dishonesty. We'll see. Paint, corner...


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Oil goes negative.
> 
> That's it, I'm done driving...stopping every 20 miles to dump a gallon of gas in the woods 'cuz my tank keeps overfilling LOL
> 
> literally though...take my oil PLEASE I will pay you to remove it from my facility


My car hasn't been driven in nearly four weeks, normally does 40,000km per year. Having said that, our petrol price is normally $2.00-$2.50 per litre or about $4.57US per gallon if that makes anyone feel better. I've no idea what the price is now. 
We've got one more week of strict lock down, then it's relaxed very slightly.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Hope immunity is more widespread than we know, and natural distancing from being in less densely populated areas largely effective for more rural places yet effected. People being responsible and being considerate to others in terms of protection will surely help.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

This looks most useful 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Your economy might be shut.
> Mine is not.


Yep, on another planet


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> Oil goes negative.
> 
> That's it, I'm done driving...stopping every 20 miles to dump a gallon of gas in the woods 'cuz my tank keeps overfilling LOL
> 
> literally though...take my oil PLEASE I will pay you to remove it from my facility


I know, right? I filled up at the gas station and they gave ME $20!


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I know, right? I filled up at the gas station and they gave ME $20!


Hope you used gloves.

To me one of the problems with money controlling is things like oil being traded as commodity used to manipulate markets. You only need put down a fraction of the capital, and don't need to take actual stock. No inventory, hardly any money makes it too easy and cheap to use as a manipulator. To me that's fine with things like gold, not ok with necessities


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Study shows more deaths, less benefits from Hydroxychloroquine 
https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

^anyone with a proper high school diploma from the 80's, and B in biology, already figured that out way before now....

what a clusterf**k hearing that from drumpf

cronies grifted a few extra million based on the lies, people lay dead in it's wake, move on to the next actual thing to lie about to try to grift again, no empathy for the dead left behind


----------



## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

theMeat said:


> Study shows more deaths, less benefits from Hydroxychloroquine
> https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2


My boss had a very high fewer for 6 days and went to the ER where he tested positive, couldn't breath, etc... and was put on the ventilator for 6 days, He asked for and received Hydroxychloroquine and the next day his fewer broke and he was on 45% ventilator. Day after it was 40% and the next day off completely. He went home 5 days later and now back at it. He still has shortness of breath but feeling better every day.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Dirtrider127 said:


> My boss had a very high fewer for 6 days and went to the ER where he tested positive, couldn't breath, etc... and was put on the ventilator for 6 days, He asked for and received Hydroxychloroquine and the next day his fewer broke and he was on 45% ventilator. Day after it was 40% and the next day off completely. He went home 5 days later and now back at it. He still has shortness of breath but feeling better every day.


That's great news 
Most people recover. Correlation does not equal causation. That's the reason for study.
Thanks for posting


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

i think I said the same a few weeks ago ...

No silver bullets, only good research and time will prevail.



theMeat said:


> Study shows more deaths, less benefits from Hydroxychloroquine
> https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

theMeat said:


> This looks most useful
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html





Nurse Ben said:


> i think I said the same a few weeks ago ...
> 
> No silver bullets, only good research and time will prevail.


Above linky looks promising. Timing of delivery tricky. Like you said, good research and time


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

theMeat said:


> Above linky looks promising. Timing of delivery tricky. Like you said, good research and time


So things are going to start opening up, for good or bad, it's already in the planning stages, some states have even opened "early".

If you can't afford to get sick, I'd suggest continuing the same precautions at work, in public, and at home.

I wish you all luck!


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> So things are going to start opening up, for good or bad, it's already in the planning stages, some states have even opened "early".
> 
> If you can't afford to get sick, I'd suggest continuing the same precautions at work, in public, and at home.
> 
> I wish you all luck!


I hope Ohio stays closed until the scientists tell us it is ok...I will follow whatever advice the people who have studied the in the proper fields tell me to. My personal rights can take a back seat to human/civil rights...I am not that selfish.

We did the right thing and cancelled school, so I do not have to travel for work now. Can continue with the Zoom lessons/meetings etc.

Even if we "open up", I will not just blindly run out into the streets and join the sheeple.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yes guys
Let’s hope we are led by the advice of our medical professionals, and not by some of the elected officials that advise otherwise.
Think most people are smart enough. Given we won’t see a rise in the curve for 3-4 weeks after we start relaxing distancing, gotta take it slow


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I want society to open up again RIGHT F-ING NOW so I can come in from my compound where I have ten years' worth of doomsday prep supplies. I need a chicken fried steak and eggs from Cracker Barrel. Bugging out and going off the grid is way more boring than I thought.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I hope Ohio stays closed until the scientists tell us it is ok...I will follow whatever advice the people who have studied the in the proper fields tell me to. My personal rights can take a back seat to human/civil rights...I am not that selfish.
> 
> We did the right thing and cancelled school, so I do not have to travel for work now. *Can continue with the Zoom lessons/meetings etc.*
> 
> Even if we "open up", I will not just blindly run out into the streets and join the sheeple.


Very happy that you and many others are able to work from home but tons of others like policemen, mechanics, HVAC guys, electric linemen and countless others don't have that luxury.
How many people living paycheck-to-paycheck can go on for months with stay-at-home orders? 
I understand the desire of going back to work and there's no easy answer here unfortunately.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

With places opening up, the smart ones will continue safe practices and the dumb ones will get infected and infect other people.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

There is a price, in deaths, to remaining closed. I'm sure many here are familiar with the rates of deaths from suicides and drug overdoses as they relate to unemployment rates.

It is beginning to look as though the Infection Fatality rate for COVID-19 may be several orders of magnitude less than the CFR. 

Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year. 

We never shut down for that, because our focus is at home, understandably. There are at least a billion people outside the U.S. who are at risk of starvation on a daily basis. It's estimated that an additional 250 million may die due to the destruction of economies by shutting down just due to starvation. It's not unreasonable to weigh the costs Vs. the benefits of reopening economies.

We may not get a vaccine for 18 months. We may never get one. We can't sit idle forever.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

What would it have cost in lives if we didn’t shut down, and if we open up too quick it will be for not


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

theMeat said:


> What would it have cost in lives if we didn't shut down, and if we open up too quick it will be for not


Predicting the future would be nice to have back when this all started.

3rd world nations will be something to look at and see how Pakistan, India, African nations, South American nations survive as the virus spreads and infects billions. Not like they have any method of tracking or testing to begin with.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

MSU Alum said:


> There is a price, in deaths, to remaining closed. I'm sure many here are familiar with the rates of deaths from suicides and drug overdoses as they relate to unemployment rates.
> 
> It is beginning to look as though the Infection Fatality rate for COVID-19 may be several orders of magnitude less than the CFR.
> 
> ...


I agree, but Georgia & Las Vegas opening up early is going to be a disaster. North Dakota, Montana, who cares, they are so spread out. But not for cities that are crowded, that's nuts. I can't believe they would open up when the infection rate is going up straight and steep.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.


That's presumably over a whole year, with perhaps more in winter. How many Americans have died so far off Covid 19 in just in a couple months of spring?


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Nat said:


> I want society to open up again RIGHT F-ING NOW so I can come in from my compound where I have ten years' worth of doomsday prep supplies. I need a chicken fried steak and eggs from Cracker Barrel. Bugging out and going off the grid is way more boring than I thought.


Yes, the quarantine is waaay more boring than anyone thought.

I have clients who struggle with social anxiety, and even they are complaining about feeling isolated.

Imagine having kids tell you they miss school. WTF??!!

So yeah, once the restrictions are lifted, wear a mask at work and in public, don't sit near people, and keep washing hands and avoid touching your face.

I'm trying to get my wife to ante up for an antibody test, $160, but if she has the antibody then that confirms (98%) that her negative test was false. So then I'll get the antibody test too.

We need a unique identifier that we can wear that tells people we had COVID and survived:


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

theMeat said:


> China is not the only one who puts image above all. When you're led by ego, and not heart and mind bad things abound


Speaking of China, some agencies here are investigating if the virus was genetically engineered. Both the Sars and Covid-19 genomes are available so why not find out for myself? Took me about 15 hours to conclude either way. It's not too hard, I could teach you guys in less than an hour how to do it.

The result? Yes in theory it's possible someone engineered it from Sars, but it would have been very, very difficult the way they did it, so for now I'm saying no, it's natural, it's not engineered, less than 1% chance anyone messed with it in the lab. There are hardly any common restriction enzyme sites in either genome that you'd find in a commercially-available piece of circular DNA for subcloning. None of them are between the 10-11 protein coding regions. The only two enzyme cutting sites in common are at the very end. That's not nearly enough evidence this was engineered.

Below are the results, hopefully no one takes this the wrong way and the FBI doesn't knock on my door tomorrow lol.

Sars none - conservative change Covid 4252
Sars none - NON-conservative change Covid 8582 
Sars none - conservative change Covid 15958
Sars 18385 Covid gone - NON-conservative change
Sars 19585 Covid gone - NON-conservative change
Sars none - conservative change Covid 26149
Sars 28302 Covid 28472
Sars 29588 Covid 29750


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> There is a price, in deaths, to remaining closed. I'm sure many here are familiar with the rates of deaths from suicides and drug overdoses as they relate to unemployment rates.
> 
> It is beginning to look as though the Infection Fatality rate for COVID-19 may be several orders of magnitude less than the CFR.
> 
> ...


We can use all kinds of comparaisons.
In poor countries millions of people are left with very little options just trying to survive.

Let s look at the top 50 countries who are now rich and lots of people have many options.
They cannot buy new dirt cheap cars.
Some regulations will not allow cars without brakes.
It is likely the same applies to seatbelts, etc...
A 10 years old cannot drive a car on public streets and roads.

To live in harmony with others we accept some rules and regulations.
Places to ride a fat/mountain bikes were closed and fines could have been given to offenders in my area.
I just read tomorrow some will reopen but maintain distance is still on. Police will watch and i have no problem with that. 
I will be riding safely and smiling


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Winter?
In what hemisphere? Northern, in USA most likely.

"That's presumably over a whole year, with perhaps more in winter. How many Americans have died so far off Covid 19 in just in a couple months of spring? "


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, the quarantine is waaay more boring than anyone thought.
> 
> I have clients who struggle with social anxiety, and even they are complaining about feeling isolated.
> 
> ...


I only did a first aid class 35 years ago so my medical knowledge is very limited.
Here is my question.
If i get tested and find i had it without symptom how does it protect others?
Let say i take the train, go visit my old mom.
Can i be a risk to her?
I do exercise and yoga on my balcony + go to the grocery.
Good luck to you and your whole family.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Mudguard said:


> That's presumably over a whole year, with perhaps more in winter.


Flu and Cold season








Sunlight UV Index








Vit-D Levels


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm trying to get my wife to ante up for an antibody test, $160, but if she has the antibody then that confirms (98%) that her negative test was false. So then I'll get the antibody test too.
> 
> We need a unique identifier that we can wear that tells people we had COVID and survived:
> 
> View attachment 1326711


Antibody test might not be that helpful. We are doing tests now and lots of people who had very significant disease, have un-detectable IgG or IgM responses a month after recovery. Others have strong IgG responses. Not sure if they are all still protected from re-infection, only some are or none are?


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Those of us stuck in GA are feeling like lab rats right about now. Luckily, me and ms can work from home, order groceries for delivery, and keep the doors locked. 

Here are the new infection totals for GA for the past 7 days : +682, 1525, 475, 632, 1098, 482, 1333. Compared to the previous 14 day totals, shows infections are clearing increasing, not decreasing. We may have passed the peak in deaths according to some models, maybe, but infections are clearly still trending up.

What a clusterf***.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, the quarantine is waaay more boring than anyone thought.


Turns out doomsday prepping is only fun when it's pretend. At least I can open carry in case I need to shoot the virus or something.


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

You are what you eat..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_bat


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

richj8990 said:


> I agree, but Georgia & Las Vegas opening up early is going to be a disaster. North Dakota, Montana, who cares, they are so spread out. But not for cities that are crowded, that's nuts. I can't believe they would open up when the infection rate is going up straight and steep.


That's the point. Or one of the points. I don't fault the reactions to date, but it doesn't hurt to learn from them. You go with the information you have at the time with the capabilities you have at the time. The argument is not to drop everything and go back to life last November. The idea is to use the knowledge we have now, based on our experience and current capabilities. It would be a good idea to err on the conservative side. 
Clearly, we can not continue like this indefinitely. That doesn't mean we stop everything we've done. This isn't a binary choice.

We make cost-benefit analyses all the time. Driving 55 would save lives (aside from the road rage murders!). We really would save lives if we had partial shutdowns every flu season. In fact, there are some studies that suggest closing schools every Wednesday during flu season would have a measurable affect on infection rates.

The Swiss have consulted the data and the viral loads in children and have decided to reopen schools on May 11. I don't think they hate science and I don't think they want to kill their own citizens.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

33red said:


> I only did a first aid class 35 years ago so my medical knowledge is very limited.
> Here is my question.
> If i get tested and find i had it without symptom how does it protect others?
> Let say i take the train, go visit my old mom.
> ...


Medical providers who develop symptoms and test positive are supposed to remain on quarantine until symptoms abate, then have two consecutive negative tests before returning to work.

Some folks are continuing to test positive well after the symptoms abate ....

If you are healthy, your risk is minimal, but if you are older (like your mother) I'd continue to quarantine.

There is so much research that needs to be done, for example:

How long after a person is recovered are the able to pass the virus?
How long is immunity maintained, if at all?
Are antibody test accurate and if so, does a positive antibody test mean you are immune?

So yeah, I'd say play it safe if you or yours are high risk, you don't want to be like the sixty year old in Indiana who just died of COVID after being a staunch anti quarantine guy.

EDIT: The guy above, imagining how his epitaph will read: He was wrong, bummer.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Very happy that you and many others are able to work from home but tons of others like policemen, mechanics, HVAC guys, electric linemen and countless others don't have that luxury.
> How many people living paycheck-to-paycheck can go on for months with stay-at-home orders?
> I understand the desire of going back to work and there's no easy answer here unfortunately.


I agree...I am damned lucky that I can work from home, and still am getting paid (am a teacher), and my wife is a pharmacy tech at our children's hospital, so I see that side of things as well....

I am not discounting all of those who are out of work, but this thing will linger on forever like this if we don't nip it in the bud as much as possible. So I agree, there is no easy answer for sure...but ignoring science is the WORST answer no matter what


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

d365 said:


> Those of us stuck in GA are feeling like lab rats right about now. Luckily, me and ms can work from home, order groceries for delivery, and keep the doors locked.
> 
> Here are the new infection totals for GA for the past 7 days : +682, 1525, 475, 632, 1098, 482, 1333. Compared to the previous 14 day totals, shows infections are clearing increasing, not decreasing. We may have passed the peak in deaths according to some models, maybe, but infections are clearly still trending up.
> 
> What a clusterf***.


yeah...just because you CAN go out does not mean that you HAVE to...I hope many many people realize this


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> yeah...just because you CAN go out does not mean that you HAVE to...I hope many many people realize this


... and then there's the folks in Florida who flooded the beaches this past weekend.

I saw a poll where 72% of Floridians wanted the quarantine to extend.

I suspect that the 72% are all the old folks and the folks clamoring for ending the quarantine are the ones on the beach.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> Medical providers who develop symptoms and test positive are supposed to remain on quarantine until symptoms abate, then have two consecutive negative tests before returning to work.
> 
> Some folks are continuing to test positive well after the symptoms abate ....
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot. Sofar we just bring her food to the door and employees i guess bring it to her door and ring and leave it there. It is a 200 older persons residence and one without problem yet.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

...


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and then there's the folks in Florida who flooded the beaches this past weekend.
> 
> I saw a poll where 72% of Floridians wanted the quarantine to extend.
> 
> I suspect that the 72% are all the old folks and the folks clamoring for ending the quarantine are the ones on the beach.


Ya just imagine lots of people are over 80 and their younger helps to feed them or do their cleaning get infected with no symptom BANG the second wave will be july not this coming fall. The truth is help is mostly a job filled by woman. It is underpaid so here there was allready many shortage of staff all over Canada and i guess in many countries. Lower the staff of the infected and increase the need = not a winning situation. Just add some who leave to save their life and soon the deaths numbers will double.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Only a rare few get a measly $2/hr raise for people working in hazardous enviroments covid19. Cant prove where you got covid19 from so it cant be a workers comp issue neither. 

Workers at some LTC homes walked off the job, for minimal wage what a risk for them. Other area's are trying to fast track students through school to help with the worker shortage through work experience, so thats either free high risk hazardous enviroment work, or minimum wage hazardous work. Those that do put themselves in danger are the heroes, especially for the vulnerable population, old people, kids, disabled, and of course the hospital staff for the sick. Starbucks was open with a long line, coffee is essential along with unhealthy Big Macs.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Scott W. Atlas, the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center, believes that "Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf

"If our estimates of 48,000-81,000 infections represent the
cumulative total on April 1, and we project deaths to April 22 (a 3 week lag from time of infection to
death22), we estimate about 100 deaths in the county. A hundred deaths out of 48,000-81,000 infections
corresponds to an infection fatality rate of 0.12-0.2%. If antibodies take longer than 3 days to appear, if
the average duration from case identification to death is less than 3 weeks, or if the epidemic wave has
peaked and growth in deaths is less than 6% daily, then the infection fatality rate would be lower."


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

MSU Alum said:


> Scott W. Atlas, the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center, believes that "Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened,_* rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections*_; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function."


Makes for a repeat performance in the news media, in turn means name recognition, which leads to more and more and more. On all levels, from a measly little scientist trying to make a name for themselves, to media outlets not cross referencing and just doing copy and paste articles, even the majors, do that, let alone scroungers like Yahoo News and MSN news and the like.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

matt4x4 said:


> Makes for a repeat performance in the news media, in turn means name recognition, which leads to more and more and more. On all levels, from a measly little scientist trying to make a name for themselves, to media outlets not cross referencing and just doing copy and paste articles, even the majors, do that, let alone scroungers like Yahoo News and MSN news and the like.


I don't understand what you're saying.

IFR's are much lower than projected. They are closing in on Flu IFR's. The data is much different now than it was 6 weeks ago. Our strategy should change based on the changes in the dynamic of the pandemic.

This study is worth a read. Even though it's only from doctors at Stanford.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf

Is it your position that we should never change what we are doing? Should we never change the parameters of the "lockdown" unless the virus disappears or we get a vaccine?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Study shows more deaths, less benefits from Hydroxychloroquine
> https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2


This was the headline from the above article:
"More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study"

It's a retrospective analysis. To understand the study, you have to understand the limitations of that type of analysis.

Here's the paper.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

The problem with a retrospective analysis is like this....

Let's say you look at the population of people in a hospital getting surgery. 
Some of those people will get MRSA, a potentially serious infection that requires pretty strong antibiotics.

If you do a "look back" retrospective analysis on those patients, some - patients without MRSA - will not get the strong antibiotic "X". Those patients with MRSA will get antibiotic "X". They're given "X" because that's the only antibiotic that can treat MRSA.

It's very likely that the patients getting antibiotic "X" will have much worse outcomes than those not getting antibiotic "X". But that's because they were sicker, and have MRSA, not because antibiotic "X" is somehow bad.

That is the situation with the VA patient analysis. You have a hospital with limited resources giving HCQ or HCQ + AZ to only the sickest patients. They have worse outcomes.
You can see this in the study in the columns of blood work, temperature, oxygenation, etc. On the right side of the columns, there's a "P value". It's a measure of the statistical significance of differences. A P value equal to or less than .05 shows a statistically significant difference.

The people who got HCQ and HCQ + AZ were all statistically significantly worse off than those who did not. You would expect their outcomes to be worse.

We still don't have definitive data on the efficacy of either of these drugs/combos, but this study doesn't move the ball, so to speak. It absolutely does not support the conclusion in the headline.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

"Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.

We never shut down for that, because our focus is at home, understandably. There are at least a billion people outside the U.S. who are at risk of starvation on a daily basis. It's estimated that an additional 250 million may die due to the destruction of economies by shutting down just due to starvation. It's not unreasonable to weigh the costs Vs. the benefits of reopening economies.

We may not get a vaccine for 18 months. We may never get one. We can't sit idle forever."



Mudguard said:


> That's presumably over a whole year, with perhaps more in winter. How many Americans have died so far off Covid 19 in just in a couple months of spring?


Flu season averages 13 weeks, but of course, it's a "rolling" epidemic regionally.
If you are saying that it's not valid for me to compare COVID-19 to the Flu in the context of deaths, I agree. My point wasn't that. It was that we make cost/benefit analyses all the time; individually, as a society and as nations. We seem to have lost that perspective with COVID-19

We're in a panic, stampeding, and I'm afraid we're headed for a cliff.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

What are they telling people who have recovered at this point (and been properly tested)? Are they free to go back to their former lives, as best they can with everyone else still in lockdown? Or do they still have major concerns that it is possible to get the virus again and they are still to practice social distancing and stay at home?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

chazpat said:


> What are they telling people who have recovered at this point (and been properly tested)? Are they free to go back to their former lives, as best they can with everyone else still in lockdown? Or do they still have major concerns that it is possible to get the virus again and they are still to practice social distancing and stay at home?


You might be interested to read a post from Nurse Ben #1576
Basically being a new one they do not know much. They might do some guessing from previous situations but certainties might not be available for months.
And what is recovered? Are there 10% with damaged respiratory system?
15% heart in **lesser shape** ?
It seams there are lots of variations.
I have no clue if different strains = different results but recovery seems to last days for some, weeks for others and even months on occasions.
In Canada most who die are over 70 yo but some at 20 also die just less frequently.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

chazpat said:


> What are they telling people who have recovered at this point (and been properly tested)? Are they free to go back to their former lives, as best they can with everyone else still in lockdown? Or do they still have major concerns that it is possible to get the virus again and they are still to practice social distancing and stay at home?


plan on catching this again and again....but each time, should have less of an impact as long as it doesn't roll over to SARS. once you get SARS....u r boned.

-the majority, barely any symptoms, basically carriers or just plain immune
-a LOT, real bad cold or flu 
--some of those, SARS

I've had it and I don't want it again for sure, but the way it spreads, I bet it'll meet me numerous times in my life much like colds and flu does ...if my immune system does not forget, then maybe it will be an annoyance rather than death coughing

oh wait Drumpf said I can inject cleaners and sit under 100,000 watt UV, I'll be fine.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> plan on catching this again and again....but each time, should have less of an impact as long as it doesn't roll over to SARS. once you get SARS....u r boned.
> 
> -the majority, barely any symptoms, basically carriers or just plain immune
> -a LOT, real bad cold or flu
> ...


Are you saying SARS can develop from cv19?
My understanding is you get sars from SARS. It doesn't develop from


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

chazpat said:


> What are they telling people who have recovered at this point (and been properly tested)? Are they free to go back to their former lives, as best they can with everyone else still in lockdown? Or do they still have major concerns that it is possible to get the virus again and they are still to practice social distancing and stay at home?


In my area, Nassau county, an eastern nyc suburb, testing shows so far that around 15% of our population here has antibodies. Er docs are being told to treat everyone as if they are infected, including themselves, whether or not they test positive for antibodies. This virus effects ppl in dif ways and some believe there may be more than one strain. How affective immunity is, how long it lasts, whether one strain gives you immunity for all strains, or if there is more than one strain are all uncertainties. 
What is certain is that distancing is working and we're on a downward trend.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

MSU Alum said:


> There is a price, in deaths, to remaining closed. I'm sure many here are familiar with the rates of deaths from suicides and drug overdoses as they relate to unemployment rates.


I suppose killing ones self is easier than filing for unemployment, which can be annoying. But it seems a bit extreme.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> I suppose killing ones self is easier than filing for unemployment, which can be annoying. But it seems a bit extreme.


Lol
Nah, we're going off a cliff, problem solved!


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> Flu season averages 13 weeks, but of course, it's a "rolling" epidemic regionally..


Why is it seasonal and a rolling epidemic?


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Are you saying SARS can develop from cv19?
> My understanding is you get sars from SARS. It doesn't develop from


ummmwtf dude have you been paying attention ?

the current pandemic, the thing in the news lately

IS A SARS VIRUS

novel coronavirus 2019 (2019-*nCoV*) now referred to as *SARS*-CoV-2

sudden acute respiratory syndrome...[this means severe pneumonia]

It's the same friggin virus, and in some cases, triggers SARS. that is the problem

did you really ask this or are you just busting balls here, truly omgwtfbbq ?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> ummmwtf dude have you been paying attention ?
> 
> the current pandemic, the thing in the news lately
> 
> ...


Ok so what is/was commonly known as SARS is CoV, has been gone since 2004, and what is commonly known as covid 19 is SARS-CoV-2.
Both are coronavirus, both can be "SARS" and are not the same. Thanks for your kind explanation, not.
If I got this wrong please feel free to beat me/a layman down for wanting to understand what you're saying, or maybe more accurately in this case not saying


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

In2falling said:


> Why is it seasonal and a rolling epidemic?


I expect it is seasonal because as the environment warms and becomes more humid, it damages the virus. People are outside more, so sunlight has the opportunity to kill the virus as it becomes airborne. During the winter, when people are inside in heated homes, the relative humidity drops and dries out mucous membranes making people more susceptible to upper respiratory viral infections. Also, in the winter, people are indoors in closer proximity to others who may be infected, which hastens the spread of the virus.

It's "rolling" in that the seasonality of the virus follows the weather, so it may crop up at different times based on weather changes. Those weather changes aren't uniform. The south heats up sooner than the north in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere, flu season starts around April. In the northern hemisphere around October.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> I suppose killing ones self is easier than filing for unemployment, which can be annoying. But it seems a bit extreme.


It is extreme. It's also reality. The data is clear on this.

This is one of very many studies on the subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1732539/

Conclusions: Being unemployed was associated with a twofold to threefold increased relative risk of death by suicide, compared with being employed. About half of this association might be attributable to confounding by mental illness.

Regarding the link between unemployment and drug overdoses, there are numerous studies supporting that conclusion as well.

This article from The Atlantic is useful in that it references several of those studies:

"The Link Between Opioids and Unemployment
A new study finds that as the jobless rate rises, so do drug overdoses."

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/04/joblessness-and-opioids/523281/


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> It is extreme. It's also reality. The data is clear on this.
> 
> This is one of very many studies on the subject.
> 
> ...


What you say is true and you add lots to the thread. Although, if I may make an analogy, it's like saying let's not fix the flat tire because we may get into an accident down the road.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Ok so what is/was commonly known as SARS is CoV, has been gone since 2004, and what is commonly known as covid 19 is SARS-CoV-2.
> Both are coronavirus, both can be "SARS" and are not the same. Thanks for your kind explanation, not.
> If I got this wrong please feel free to beat me down for wanting to understand


in the context of writing about things today, this year, the current situation

I do not choose to be naming dates and every other prior version of SARS for every post

just pretend to ASS.U.ME in this thread we are talking about

1) SARS means SARS no matter how you get it

2) Disease 
coronavirus disease

(COVID-19)

3) Virus 
severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 
(SARS-CoV-2)

4) You can get COVID-19 and not get SARS. or you can.

5) FLU does not trigger SARS. COLDS do not trigger SARS.

6) Some viruses trigger SARS and SARS-CoV-2 is well known to do that.

I personally hobnob with people who >directly work on this virus and this problem<, you won't be able to screw up my understanding of the exact and specific science regarding this issue...never.

You can frustrate the living hell out of me though, because this is SIMPLE to understand....yet I am blown away by other peoples misunderstanding...this is what I do not get.

If you listen to scientists and doctors working on the problem, you will see most accurate information.

If you listen to trump and his cronies, *you will get completely wrong information, daily*. This is FACT.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> What you say is true and you add lots to the thread. Although, if I may make an analogy, it's like saying let's not fix the flat tire because we may get into an accident down the road.


It took a few seconds to get your drift, but if you are saying we should be careful to weigh the downside of opening up too early against the upside of preventing suicides and drug overdoses (and inherent loss of life associated with poverty outside those cases) I agree. The key is to look at cost Vs. benefits and that calculus is not a constant.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> in the context of writing about things today, this year, the current situation
> 
> I do not choose to be naming dates and every other prior version of SARS for every post
> 
> ...


No need to get defensive. Not trying to 'screw up your understanding'. Only trying to understand myself. Many of my friends are er MDs here in the tristate that I talk to regularly. Think that gives me a lil insight that many may not have and would like to share. Sorry if I 'frustrated the hell out of you' and only wanted to make clear to myself and anyone else that is following that you meant SARS as a condition, or however you want to classify it, and not as the virus SARS CoV. 
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go drink some Clorox, I hear it helps


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> It took a few seconds to get your drift, but if you are saying we should be careful to weigh the downside of opening up too early against the upside of preventing suicides and drug overdoses (and inherent loss of life associated with poverty outside those cases) I agree. The key is to look at cost Vs. benefits and that calculus is not a constant.


I agree. Sometimes life has some harsh realities. Looking back at this think we will fair better as a people if the mistakes we made are because we wanted to save sick people, instead of sacrificing people in the name of economy


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

OldBlue950 said:


> I suppose killing ones self is easier than filing for unemployment, which can be annoying. But it seems a bit extreme.


From outward appearances, suicides and drug overdoses have not surged. Surprisingly people are handling it okay.

My impression is that people who are impoverished seem to be managing the stress better than those who are wealthy.

I see a mix of people from all socio economic groups, but mostly Medicaid.

My wife works in primary care and they're volume is way down, even urgent care is slow.

What I find surprising is how well people are managing during the quarantine, as if having a common goal is bringing people together.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> From outward appearances, suicides and drug overdoses have not surged. Surprisingly people are handling it okay.
> 
> My impression is that people who are impoverished seem to be managing the stress better than those who are wealthy.
> 
> ...


The national hotline providing emergency help to people suffering from emotional distress has received nearly nine times (891%) more calls than it did this time last year, with tens of thousands of Americans reaching out for assistance amid the coronavirus crisis, according to U.S. officials.

The surge in deaths haven't occurred yet as far as I know, thank goodness, but we've only been shut down for 33 days, so it's early yet.

I knew a woman who was triggered to commit suicide. She had been fighting deep depression for years. The trigger was when Robin Williams killed himself. She said, before successfully taking her own life, that "if he can't deal with life, how can I"?

I think it was last month that an elderly couple committed suicide because they thought they'd caught COVID-19. They hadn't.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Now if you'll excuse me I have to go drink some Clorox, I hear it helps


I did get a chuckle out of that, but:

"What are Inhaled anti-infectives?
Inhaled anti-infectives are agents that act locally, in the lungs to treat infection. Inhaled antibiotics are used to treat bacterial infection and antiviral medicines treat viral infections. These anti-infectives are inhaled either as dry powder or as a solution via a nebulizer."

Here's a list of 16 of them:
https://www.drugs.com/drug-class/inhaled-anti-infectives.html

There are others, like Zanamivir that aren't on the list.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I did get a chuckle out of that, but:
> 
> "What are Inhaled anti-infectives?
> Inhaled anti-infectives are agents that act locally, in the lungs to treat infection. Inhaled antibiotics are used to treat bacterial infection and antiviral medicines treat viral infections. These anti-infectives are inhaled either as dry powder or as a solution via a nebulizer."
> ...


Interesting, but you should know that ppl are naive enough not to take it that way, and the delivery of that message of taking disinfectants internally horrible. For the record what was mentioned was disinfectants, after discussing how effective they were at cleaning surfaces, and what you're pointing to is anti-infective as used in medicine. Also doubtful no one else has thought of this as a treatment, as he would have ppl believe.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to figure out how to swallow my flashlight


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Interesting, but you should know that ppl are naive enough not to take it that way, and the delivery of that message of taking disinfectants internally horrible.
> Now if you'll excuse me I have to figure out how to swallow my flashlight


Here's what he actually said. It's in the first 50 seconds, if you haven't seen it.




I don't think the headlines accurately reflect what was said, but people can disagree.

Funny you should mention light.
I have/had Choroidal Melanoma. If it metastasizes, it's uniformly fatal.

There are 3 main ways to treat it. Remove the eye, place a radioactive pellet behind the eye, surgically for a week or so (both of those open up the possibility of hastening metastasis), and one other treatment that to my knowledge, isn't specifically approved by the FDA. It uses a 300 mW infrared laser (light) to burn the lesion through the cornea.

My doctor was aiming toward the radiation option which is invasive and causes vision loss. Basically, I said, look, why don't we try the laser. Worst case, it doesn't work and we then go with the radiation? His response was basically, yeah, why not?

It worked. I'm cancer free going on 7 years. I'm pretty open to "spit-balling" ideas to save lives!


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Here's what he actually said. It's in the first 50 seconds, if you haven't seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it's pretty incredible to watch a person, let alone a prez talk that way. So glad he thought of asking doctors to consider light and heat to effect virus. Who'd a thought, smh.
Glad you were able to beat your cancer with unknown/unproven method, god bless, really. Also think it's time you come out of the closet on your feeling on tRump


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

theMeat said:


> Yeah it's pretty incredible to watch a person, let alone a prez talk that way. So glad he thought of asking doctors to consider light and heat to effect virus. Who'd a thought, smh.
> Glad you were able to beat your cancer with unknown/unproven method, god bless, really. Also think it's time you come out of the closet on your feeling on tRump


I don't think my feelings on Trump are very interesting, or relevant. I make an effort to be pretty even handed regardless. I don't always succeed, but I try.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I don't think my feelings on Trump are very interesting, or relevant. I make an effort to be pretty even handed regardless. I don't always succeed, but I try.


Fair enough

Would also like to say that I'm all for opening up society. Think that if people can have confidence in other people being considerate enough to distance and face cover, and confidence in gov to be truthful on the reality of the results of relaxing, instead of the this is stupid it's like the flu what are we doing bs, that would go along way to get everyone on the same page. Not to mention a quicker way to effective herd immunity.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Health hotlines receiving calls asking about ingesting cleaning products
https://www.baltimoresun.com/corona...0200424-4i2cjuqmsjfhfpnbgdzz7nttva-story.html


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

^^^If you don't read the label, go for it,I guess. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

MSU Alum said:


> Here's what he actually said. It's in the first 50 seconds, if you haven't seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its the fake news era so media outlets will edit the clip to suit the news media outlets own agenda.


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Has anything changed as far as survival rate? Early on it was 98% chance of survival. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> From outward appearances, suicides and drug overdoses have not surged. Surprisingly people are handling it okay.
> 
> My impression is that people who are impoverished seem to be managing the stress better than those who are wealthy.
> 
> ...


All of the complaining I have seen has come from people who are well off, most of which is coming in the form of how they feel so bad for the poor who aren't complaining, because they know nobody feels sorry for them.

My point on the unemployment comment, as you may know, was that the vast majority of people who became unemployed due to covid can collect their normal unemployment benefits (mine were a paltry 248/week,certainly on the low end of the spectrum but I got by) AND an additional 600/week. So nobody but the rich and famous who will certainly feel deprived at that income level need consider kiling themselves anytime soon.

When the benefits run out, maybe. But that's a long way off so its way too soon to start counting the dead.


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## Spectre (Jan 23, 2004)

2old said:


> Has anything changed as far as survival rate? Early on it was 98% chance of survival.


Some calculations I made of survival rates from different sources:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html
Survival Rate 94.9%

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Survival Rate: 94.4%

Key sources of error are likely to be both the number of cases (likely to be more cases than have officially been counted) & the number of deaths.

It's possible that the mortality rate in the US might be higher than in some other countries as I believe our obesity rate and rate of diabetes might skew that rate upwards.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Survival depends on the health care system of the region and country your in, the # already infected and in er's/icu's and those using up ventilators, the # of ventilators available, smoking habits, vaping, obesity, other health problems. Its on going, new information is being handled and investigated. Maybe the CDC's or other websites got more specific information, especially on age and previous health histories. For sure when time can be spent and an in depth analysis can be conducted there will be more information available on the multitude of parameters the covid19 virus.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Sparticus said:


> Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that it's possible to disagree with someone without personally attacking them.
> =sParty


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sparticus again.



Lone Rager said:


> Compared to that, stocking up on TP makes a lot of sense. At least it won't go bad and you'll be able to use it...eventually.


Just think, some bastard bought all the plungers in retaliation! Check mate...


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

You guys are still at it. Gotta hand it to you, you're a persistent bunch.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Well, that may be the case, but the clients I see are doing pretty well overall.

Maybe it's because we're in a rural area.

I think people are worried, that goes without saying, but we have not see an influx of people seeking mental care at our clinics.

It's actually slowed down a fair amount.

Pre COVID I was booked out six weeks, but now I have appointments inside two weeks.



MSU Alum said:


> The national hotline providing emergency help to people suffering from emotional distress has received nearly nine times (891%) more calls than it did this time last year, with tens of thousands of Americans reaching out for assistance amid the coronavirus crisis, according to U.S. officials.
> 
> The surge in deaths haven't occurred yet as far as I know, thank goodness, but we've only been shut down for 33 days, so it's early yet.
> 
> ...


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> Well, that may be the case, but the clients I see are doing pretty well overall.
> 
> Maybe it's because we're in a rural area.
> 
> ...


I think in smaller cities we do have a few advantages. From living in Montreal about 3 million if we count the suburbs to here 50,000 close to nature.
Sure crowded areas have subways and we do not so some distancing is easier here.
But here we know our neighbors and we are less likely to ignore them so we get that together we can endure this tough time. Yesterday the mayor reopened the cycling paths and the parks partially. People often walk outside in a relaxing setting. This is not perfect but we do enjoy a higher quality of living, less stress.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)




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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> Well, that may be the case, but the clients I see are doing pretty well overall.
> 
> Maybe it's because we're in a rural area.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that non-COVID patients are avoiding clinics like - dare I say, "the plague" - health care professionals are being furloughed due to lack of patients. My daughter is an operating room nurse. She's had her hours cut back. My cousin is an MD at Mass Gen and other than COVID patients, they don't have much business. He's noted a lack of heart patients in particular.

Being in a rural area, I would guess your patient pool consists of pretty resilient people. Generally, though, I'd think someone very stressed out about the virus probably won't show up at a hospital if they can possibly avoid it. In fact, I'd guess that the pool of people in extreme mental stress would be the most likely to not go in for help, as they would be most susceptible to that fear.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)




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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I did get a chuckle out of that, but:
> 
> "What are Inhaled anti-infectives?
> Inhaled anti-infectives are agents that act locally, in the lungs to treat infection. Inhaled antibiotics are used to treat bacterial infection and antiviral medicines treat viral infections. These anti-infectives are inhaled either as dry powder or as a solution via a nebulizer."
> ...


Found another that's not on the list


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## moab63 (Dec 29, 2003)

:thumbsup:
Persistent for sure!!


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

The last couple of clusterf*ck press briefings...



Me: Jesus H Christ


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

How does it feel to be Great again?
That 1 was a joke.
I wish you well.
Here riding is OK since yesterday so we are enjoying the exercise and the sun


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

mlx john said:


> The last couple of clusterf*ck press briefings...
> 
> Me: Jesus H Christ


Would think that dr Birx and Fauci have had it and if they jump ship..
That's why we might not see as much of our cult leader at these briefings. Going to miss my fill of afternoon Springer


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

This is the "healight" It's an ultraviolet (UVA) light emitter inserted into the breathing tube of patients to kill viruses and bacteria. It was developed at Cedars-Sinai hospital and produced by Aytu Bioscience.






Light in this frequency range damages Thymine (which connect to the shin-bone....I mean Adinine) in DNA and I think that's the process here against viruses and bacteria. Humans generally have enough of the enzymes in their bodies to repair that damage. But, too much sun, for too many years overwhelms that repair mechanism. Here, the viruses lack that type of enzymatic repair mechanism.

For them it's death at the beach.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

if Trump really was referring to the UV light catheter technology, He didn’t make that clear on Thursday. Not to mention made it like he thought of it

The biggest cause of death from covid is the bodies response, in lungs, is too much. The virus is the cause of the immune response, the immune response is the cause of death. Heart and kidney functions are stressed too. While internal uv maybe a tool in someways. UV kills virus outside the body naturally and safely. Same as disinfectants.


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

mlx john said:


> The last couple of clusterf*ck press briefings...
> 
> Me: Jesus H Christ


https://kunstler.com/cluster****-nation/turning-and-churning/


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I don't remember where I read this. I recall a neurologist who had bat-fever talking about his experience and his sensation of having "Ondine's Curse" at one point in the progression of the disease.

Ondine's curse is named after a mythical tale in which a heartbroken water nymph curses her unfaithful husband to stop breathing should he ever fall asleep. In medical terms, Ondine's curse represents an extreme form of sleep apnea.

It was, to say the least, a terrifying experience!

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes

"Some people with COVID-19 briefly lose consciousness. Others have strokes. Many report losing their sense of smell. And Frontera and others wonder whether in some cases, infection depresses the brain stem reflex that senses oxygen starvation."


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

theMeat said:


> if Trump really was referring to the UV light catheter technology, He didn't make that clear on Thursday. Not to mention made it like he thought of it


I think he was suggesting we blow sunshine up each other's asses.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Perineum sunning is the future. Trump is yet again ahead of the curve.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

He will do anything to stay out of jail... shitttloads are coming. Loosing in nov is not an option.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

the one ring said:


> I think he was suggesting we blow sunshine up each other's asses.


Thought that's what we were doing. We must all be immune by now


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> All of the complaining I have seen has come from people who are well off, most of which is coming in the form of how they feel so bad for the poor who aren't complaining, because they know nobody feels sorry for them.
> 
> My point on the unemployment comment, as you may know, was that the vast majority of people who became unemployed due to covid can collect their normal unemployment benefits (mine were a paltry 248/week,certainly on the low end of the spectrum but I got by) AND an additional 600/week. So nobody but the rich and famous who will certainly feel deprived at that income level need consider kiling themselves anytime soon.
> 
> When the benefits run out, maybe. But that's a long way off so its way too soon to start counting the dead.


That leaves a whole lotta people without unemployment, biz owners who haven't gotten yet or may not ever. The last biz loan was a give away. People start going hungry not going to go well for anyone. 
Not a race, it's a marathon


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Restaurants, coffee houses, etc. that want to open back up for take out here, can't. Their employees are collecting more on unemployment than they will if they go back to work so they are naturally opting to stay home. What a complicated interesting mess. 

I'm noticing another run on grocery stores here in Portland. Lots of bare shelves and long lines again. Wondering if there are gaps opening up on the supply and processing end causing this now. Not good. 

The longer this goes on the more it seems to me we'll have no choice but to open up and let the chips fall where they may. I think one could even make the argument the current shut down will have ended up being counterproductive. Losing containment and the ability to contact trace is proving a zero-sum game regardless what we do.

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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> Restaurants, coffee houses, etc. that want to open back up for take out here, can't. Their employees are collecting more on unemployment than they will if they go back to work so they are naturally opting to stay home.


Normally, turning down work in your field comparable to what you did before becoming unemployed is not a legal option. Did they change the rules for Covid-19? I still have to answer the question "did you turn down any offer of work?" every week when i apply for benefits just like I always have.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Normally, turning down work in your field comparable to what you did before becoming unemployed is not a legal option. Did they change the rules for Covid-19? I still have to answer the question "did you turn down any offer of work?" every week when i apply for benefits just like I always have.


Couldn't answer that, I don't know. I do know proprietor and employee alike are interviewed on the news which I'm reiterating.

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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> Couldn't answer that, I don't know. I do know proprietor and employee alike are interviewed on the news which I'm reiterating.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


NPR? I heard an employer interview the other day who said he won't ask his employees to come back right now because he knows they'd be working for less pay than they are getting on unemployment. Which is nice of him. But that was his choice, a choice he could have made differently.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> NPR? I heard an employer interview the other day who said he won't ask his employees to come back right now because he knows they'd be working for less pay than they are getting on unemployment. Which is nice of him. But that was his choice, a choice he could have made differently.


How did this work? Is the unemployment amount more than the wages?
Is this for full time work?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Mudguard said:


> How did this work? Is the unemployment amount more than the wages?
> Is this for full time work?


You get your unemployment plus $600 a week for Covid pay. If you have kids it's $500 additional per. That's a LOT more money than most US entry level jobs pay.

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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> You get your unemployment plus $600 a week for Covid pay. If you have kids it's $500 additional per. That's a LOT more money than most US entry level jobs pay.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


I think the $500 per child is a one time addition to your one time $1200 stimulus check, not weekly unemployment benefit.

But yes, $600 week is added to normal unemployment benefits (which are usually about 1/2 your normal pay). So someone who made $500/week is potentially bringing in 250+ 600/week now.

But before anyone gets their undies bunched up in a wad, you still have to be looking for work and you still can't turn down good work.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> I think the $500 per child is a one time addition to your one time $1200 stimulus check, not weekly unemployment benefit.
> .


Ah yes, that's right. Should've tagged my post with a "I think".

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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

OldBlue950 said:


> But yes, $600 week is added to normal unemployment benefits, which are usually about 1/2 your normal pay


So there isn't a set unemployment amount in the US? It's tied to however much your previous job paid?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Mudguard said:


> So there isn't a set unemployment amount in the US? It's tied to however much your previous job paid?


I believe so, along with the unemployment rate for where your main house is located.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Mudguard said:


> So there isn't a set unemployment amount in the US? It's tied to however much your previous job paid?


Yes, it varies widely based on state. Up to a cutoff point I think, where it doesn't go any higher. The temporary $600 covid payment does not vary.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I've been seeing more and more Skip the Dish delivery drivers working in teams, and saw one tag team driving a one ton truck, big burly guy and his wife, just trying to make rent or mortgage payments and truck payments.

So, that would ideally mean they are making $30/hour plus $0.20 for road wear and tear and fuel. Not sure what they get paid from Skip on a per delivery basis and whatever the tip is, if any. Lots seem to wait around for 5 minutes to even get the food, then driving time say another 8 minutes. 4 deliveries per hour, so $8/order? barely covers labor cost. The passenger would rock the Skip the Dish app to snag the deliveries, while the driver drives and picks the food up, but does that mean they have to deliver it first, or can they stack deliveries.

Then there is Uber Eats and Uber Taxi.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

OldBlue950 said:


> I think the $500 per child is a one time addition to your one time $1200 stimulus check, not weekly unemployment benefit.
> 
> But yes, $600 week is added to normal unemployment benefits (which are usually about 1/2 your normal pay). So someone who made $500/week is potentially bringing in 250+ 600/week now.
> 
> But before anyone gets their undies bunched up in a wad, you still have to be looking for work and you still can't turn down good work.


my understanding is the state of california is temporarily waiving the work search requirement


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

cant turn down good work but you can turn down bad work

interesting phrasing


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

shekky said:


> my understanding is the state of california is temporarily waiving the work search requirement


That could be. There really isn't much work to be found outside of "internet forum poster". They still ask the question on my benefit request, and i still say yes I'm searching. I'm always searching, even when I'm working fulltime.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

matt4x4 said:


> cant turn down good work but you can turn down bad work
> 
> interesting phrasing


That's under normal circumstances. If you're an oral surgeon you probably won't have to accept work as a dental hygienist and if you're a dental hygienist you probably won't have to accept work cleaning toilets. But if you are a dental hygiene you will risk losing your benefits if you turn down a job as a dental hygienist or something better.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't think that's it at all.

My wife has noticed the same thing, most of her patients are doing well, only a few are freaked out.

She works internal medicine, so her clients are older adults, whereas my clients run the lifespan.

I have noticed more people getting exercise, extended families getting along, kinda surprising.

Hey Meat: my wife got a laugh outta the Lysol inhaler ?



MSU Alum said:


> I'm guessing that non-COVID patients are avoiding clinics like - dare I say, "the plague" - health care professionals are being furloughed due to lack of patients. My daughter is an operating room nurse. She's had her hours cut back. My cousin is an MD at Mass Gen and other than COVID patients, they don't have much business. He's noted a lack of heart patients in particular.
> 
> Being in a rural area, I would guess your patient pool consists of pretty resilient people. Generally, though, I'd think someone very stressed out about the virus probably won't show up at a hospital if they can possibly avoid it. In fact, I'd guess that the pool of people in extreme mental stress would be the most likely to not go in for help, as they would be most susceptible to that fear.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I am realy surprised that the majority of people did not see this coming.
These last 40 years of personal and governements debts growing non stop was not going to end in some miracle great finaly.
Just look the ***solution*** = more debts.
Seriously???
These last 40 years of getting overweight and popping more pills
was not going to lead to longer lives.
Talking about suicide like it is a problem makes no sense.
Less humans = less garbage, kind of not too bad.
We made that problem with flying around the globe
and trusting global economics as designed for billions of humans.
It was designed for a few to have more control
more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
A great success.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Vitamin D linked to COVID-19 mortality
Vitamin D linked to COVID-19 mortality

"According to these latest TILDA findings, there are major discrepancies in mortality rates related to vitamin D levels at different latitudes worldwide. Countries in the southern hemisphere, such as Australia, are recording relatively low COVID-related mortality, which the TILDA researchers state can no longer feasibly be related to the later appearance and spread of the virus."

"The researchers pointed out that mortality rates from COVID-19 are higher at these latitudes, with the exception of Nordic countries, where vitamin D supplementation is widespread and deficiency is much less common."

Vitamin-D levels from 212 laboratory-confirmed infections of SARS-CoV-2 across three hospitals in Southern Asian countries. Showing 19 times greater risk of having critical case with very low Vitamin-D levels.

Vitamin D Supplementation Could Possibly Improve Clinical Outcomes of Patients Infected with Coronavirus-2019 (COVID-2019) 
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3571484
212 (100.0%) cases of Covid-2019
Mean Vitamin-D serum levels 
49 (23.1%) were mild = 31.2 ng/ml
59 (27.8%) were ordinary = 27.4 ng/ml
56 (26.4%) were severe = 21.2 ng/ml 
48 (22.6%) were critical = 17.1 ng/ml

Looks like the hormone Vit-D has just a small impact on your immune system?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You'd feel differently about suicide if it was you or someone you know.

We all get that the world is overpopulated, but that's no excuse for being insensitive to the struggled of others.

Try to remember that you are part of the solution as well as part of the problem.

I'd really like to see fewer pissy posts, they're not helpful to you or anyone else.



33red said:


> I am realy surprised that the majority of people did not see this coming.
> These last 40 years of personal and governements debts growing non stop was not going to end in some miracle great finaly.
> Just look the ***solution*** = more debts.
> Seriously???
> ...


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Anybody else see Cuomo handily winning a bid for president if he threw his chips in now? I'd say the same for the next election cycle but there's just to much real estate between now and then, it could be a VERY different world by then. One must seriously question a system that delivers Trump and Biden as the two most qualified Americans for the job. What a dog **** trajectory we've enabled. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah Cuomo looking very presidential. 
Doubt he’ll run, cause he promised he’d serve his term as gov. Stranger things have happened


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> One must seriously question a system that delivers Trump and Biden as the two most qualified Americans for the job. What a dog **** trajectory we've enabled.


x about 1,000! 300 million souls and this is really the best we can do? One would almost think some foreign adversary is picking our candidates.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Does anyone really want to be a politician?

I wouldn't do it, life is too short to deal with all that bullshit.

What surprises me is that anyone older than fifty wants the job. I'm mid fifties and my mindset now is winding things down and enjoying my time while I can still function.

I think the mantra of "think globally, act locally" speaks more to what we should be doing than all the national news watching nonsense.

The nice thing about acting locally is you can actually make a difference.



J.B. Weld said:


> x about 1,000! 300 million souls and this is really the best we can do? One would almost think some foreign adversary is picking our candidates.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ummmm, vitamins are not hormones.

Focusing on a single vitamin deficiency is short sighted, so I find it curious that some folks insist vitamin D is the root cause for susceptibility to disease.

.... but I'll play along.

So here's how you can increase your vitamin D:

Spend time in sunlight. ...
Consume fatty fish and seafood. ...
Eat more mushrooms. ...
Include egg yolks in your diet. ...
Eat fortified foods. ...
Take a supplement. ...
Try a UV lamp.

So basically, go outside and eat right.



In2falling said:


> Looks like the hormone Vit-D has just a small impact on your immune system?


----------



## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> So basically, go outside and eat right.


Good luck selling THAT!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Does anyone really want to be a politician?
> 
> I wouldn't do it, life is too short to deal with all that bullshit.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't want to be a lawyer or a doctor either but lots of people choose those careers and enjoy them. Politicians do seem mostly despised in general and rightly so but they're a necessary evil IMO, I don't believe that 8 billion people can individually regulate themselves successfully. Representatives are needed.

I think that just is there a minimum age requirement for important political positions there should also be maximum age limits. Seems crazy to me to be electing people who are on their last legs.

"Think globally, act locally" is all well and good but it has limitations, it won't affect corporate tax rates, groundwater regulations, etc. I don't watch national news btw but unfortunately I absorb plenty of it from people parroting talking points.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ummmm, vitamins are not hormones.
> Focusing on a single vitamin deficiency is short sighted, so I find it curious that some folks insist vitamin D is the root cause for susceptibility to disease.


Was misclassified when it was discovered.
https://www.yourhormones.info/hormones/vitamin-d/
"Vitamin D is actually a hormone rather than a vitamin"

Lots of over whelming evidence that low levels severely compromises your immune system. A weak immune system makes you very susceptibility to many diseases.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

theMeat said:


> Yeah Cuomo looking very presidential.
> Doubt he'll run, cause he promised he'd serve his term as gov. Stranger things have happened


As far as Cuomo goes, dude had a couple of good sound bytes, that's it, he's a loud-mouthed NY'er like trump is, nothing new, he just sounds better in front of a camera.

As far as politicians go, sign me up, which other job can you go in as one of the peasants and go out a multi-millionaire? Maybe an athlete or entertainer but insider trading isn't 'legal' with them as it is with politicians...They're all scammers as far I'm concerned.

And as far as the post goes, both of my parents in NY are coming out of quarantine tomorrow, thank God. One was in the hospital for 7 days and had oxygen support but thankfully far from a ventilator, the other just had loss of taste, fever, aches...both over 79 years old and haven't had a fever in over a week. I'm definitely a happy camper right now.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Yeah most people would not see a new virus/novel virus coming.
Though there is the clip of Bill Gates Ted Talk 8 yrs ago stating something will be coming around. I hardly remember 2008 SARS, and cant remember the how big a deal it was back then.

As for society planning for rainy days, well some do. The experts say plan for a 3 or 4 months period of no income. Yet people still lease new cars instead of buying used cars or fixing their old car, people buy gas gusslers like trucks and suv's, $1000 iphones, how many pairs of shoes does one person need, always eating out.

Pill problem is the instant gratification and the doctors over prescribing pills.

Over population, true and the amount of water and grassing land it takes for red meat, instead of poultry and pork. The enviroment in which the animals live, fish farms for example. The polluted oceans, plastic ocean, toxic ocean. Yet we pay a carbon tax while China, India, pakistan etc keep polluting.

Its a mess!



33red said:


> I am realy surprised that the majority of people did not see this coming.
> These last 40 years of personal and governements debts growing non stop was not going to end in some miracle great finaly.
> Just look the ***solution*** = more debts.
> Seriously???
> ...


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

upstateSC-rider said:


> As far as Cuomo goes, dude had a couple of good sound bytes, that's it, he's a loud-mouthed NY'er like trump is, nothing new, he just sounds better in front of a camera.
> 
> As far as politicians go, sign me up, which other job can you go in as one of the peasants and go out a multi-millionaire? Maybe an athlete or entertainer but insider trading isn't 'legal' with them as it is with politicians...They're all scammers as far I'm concerned.
> 
> And as far as the post goes, both of my parents in NY are coming out of quarantine tomorrow, thank God. One was in the hospital for 7 days and had oxygen support but thankfully far from a ventilator, the other just had loss of taste, fever, aches...both over 79 years old and haven't had a fever in over a week. I'm definitely a happy camper right now.


The fact that pollyticians will never have their feet held to the fire so to speak is very true in that they rarely if ever receive any form of consequence for their misdeeds.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I struggle to understand how the "pill problem" is due to doctors overprescribing. Has it not occurred to folks that the problem is that people are asking for medication and are taking the medications?

It would be like suggesting that auto manufacturers are responsible for auto accidents because they let the cars go too fast ...

So yeah, own it, take responsibility for your choices, avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

... and for gawd's sake, stop blaming medical providers, it gets old and it's disingenuous.

If you take the damn pills, then it's your choice and your responsibility, period, the end.



matt4x4 said:


> ... Pill problem is the instant gratification and the doctors over prescribing pills...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So you have a means to personally address corporate tax rates and groundwater regulations?

I'm all ears 

So here's the thing: Acting locally is actually possible at individual level, whereas acting nationally and internationally is not possible at the individual level.

This ^ is what really messes folks up and leads to increased anxiety (see insomnia thread).

So yeah, accept your limits, deal with stuff that is attainable, and don't worry about the rest, cuz worrying about what you can't change is just gonna stress you out (see insomnia thread).



J.B. Weld said:


> ... "Think globally, act locally" is all well and good but it has limitations, it won't affect corporate tax rates, groundwater regulations, etc. I don't watch national news btw but unfortunately I absorb plenty of it from people parroting talking points...


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

_I don't think "global thinking" is futile, I think it is impossible. You can't think about what you don't know and nobody knows this planet. Some people know a little about a few small parts of it&#8230;The people who think globally do so by abstractly and statistically reducing the globe to quantities. Political tyrants and industrial exploiters have done this most successfully. Their concepts and their green are abstract and their abstractions lead with terrifying directness and simplicity to acts that are invariably destructive. If you want to do good and preserving acts you must think and act locally. The effort to do good acts gives the global game away. You can't do a good act that is global&#8230;a good act, to be good must be acceptable to what Alexander Pope called "the genius of the place". This calls for local knowledge, local skills, and local love that virtually none of us has, and that none of us can get by thinking globally. We can get it only by a local fidelity that we would have to maintain through several lifetimes&#8230;I don't wish to be loved by people who don't know me; if I were a planet I would feel exactly the same._ ~Wendell Berry


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

matt4x4 said:


> Yeah most people would not see a new virus/novel virus coming.
> Though there is the clip of Bill Gates Ted Talk 8 yrs ago stating something will be coming around. I hardly remember 2008 SARS, and cant remember the how big a deal it was back then.
> 
> Its a mess!


Actually, I have been teaching emerging infectious diseases to medical students for over 20 years and everyone in the virology/ID field has been expecting this. SARS was a very big deal - mainly because it was a simple coronavirus.

The US government also thought this day would come but through an act of bio-terror, which is why they funded DITRA and BARDA (but not NIAID) to deal with such an issue.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> So you have a means to personally address corporate tax rates and groundwater regulations?
> 
> I'm all ears


Presumably every vote counts, so we've been told anyway. I will never vote for any candidate who disregards environmental concerns or are socially unjust.

I do accept my limits. I cast my vote and walk away. I'm not stressed, my blood pressure is low and I sleep well at night.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Presumably every vote counts, so we've been told anyway. I will never vote for any candidate who disregards environmental concerns or are socially unjust.
> 
> I do accept my limits. I cast my vote and walk away. I'm not stressed, my blood pressure is low and I sleep well at night.


If you live in a state that is definitely going red or blue your vote for pres does not matter, which goes back to NurseBen's point of making a dif locally


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, I have been teaching emerging infectious diseases to medical students for over 20 years and everyone in the virology/ID field has been expecting this. SARS was a very big deal - mainly because it was a simple coronavirus.
> 
> The US government also thought this day would come but through an act of bio-terror, which is why they funded DITRA and BARDA (but not NIAID) to deal with such an issue.


Anyone who took microbiology 30 years ago as i did would have realized the potential too. Sadly we are about 50% anti-science country.

I've heard this mistakenly referred to as a 100-year pandemic, as if its a Mississippi River flood or something. I'm not aware of any such cyclical properties of viruses (I'm also not a virologist or epidemiologist, so take that FWIW). The unfortunate truth as I see it is that we could have another pandemic on our hands in 50 years, 5 years, or 5 days, concurrent with this one. My understanding is also that the frequency is likely to increase with our continued encroaching on natural habitats and possibly with warming temps.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, I have been teaching emerging infectious diseases to medical students for over 20 years and everyone in the virology/ID field has been expecting this. SARS was a very big deal - mainly because it was a simple coronavirus.
> 
> The US government also thought this day would come but through an act of bio-terror, which is why they funded DITRA and BARDA (but not NIAID) to deal with such an issue.


I knew problems were coming and i am just a 62 yo human, no specific studies.
Here is my question even if it might sound dumb.
FEMA helps with many problems why not this time?
At least they are absent from the news.
I guess it means Federal Emergency Management Agency??
In Canada we called on some army personel to help in some old people homes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

theMeat said:


> If you live in a state that is definitely going red or blue your vote for pres does not matter, which goes back to NurseBen's point of making a dif locally


Yes I'm aware of that, that's why I said presumably. Lot's of offices that can make a difference besides the presidency. My point remains that politicians, or representatives are a necessary evil.

And yes you can, and should make a difference locally but putting used aluminum into the recycling bin or not dumping used oil into your yard makes little difference if there aren't environmental regulations guiding corporations and factories.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes I'm aware of that, that's why I said presumably. Lot's of offices that can make a difference besides the presidency. My point remains that politicians, or representatives are a necessary evil.
> 
> And yes you can, and should make a difference locally but putting used aluminum into the recycling bin or not dumping used oil into your yard makes little difference if there aren't environmental regulations guiding corporations and factories.


Ftw don't dump oil in your yard.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> Actually, I have been teaching emerging infectious diseases to medical students for over 20 years and everyone in the virology/ID field has been expecting this. SARS was a very big deal - mainly because it was a simple coronavirus.
> 
> The US government also thought this day would come but through an act of bio-terror, which is why they funded DITRA and BARDA (but not NIAID) to deal with such an issue.


Even someone just somewhat casually being up to date with things should have known this was coming at some point; it's been mentioned in the general press for years.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> I struggle to understand how the "pill problem" is due to doctors overprescribing. Has it not occurred to folks that the problem is that people are asking for medication and are taking the medications?
> 
> It would be like suggesting that auto manufacturers are responsible for auto accidents because they let the cars go too fast ...
> 
> ...


Wait, so we're only supposed to listen to professionals in the field or it is ok to do our own research with our own best interest at stake?

We are one of only 2 nations in the world that advertise drugs directly to the public. You may want to go back and look at the floodgates of money and resulting influence that's had on our system top to bottom. It's quite astonishing actually.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

People in the infectious disease community could see it coming, but when was the dice game.
Government's who knows, maybe individuals knew but maybe the gov't was trying to save money. Canada's gov't threw out millions of masks and never replenished them, 6 or 8 months ago.


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## Spectre (Jan 23, 2004)

That COVID-19 was coming should have been completely obvious to anyone that was paying attention. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore all learned ways to contain a viral outbreak from the 2003 SARS outbreak. SARS should have been the wake-up call to us in the US (along with MERS, H1N1, Zika, etc.) https://www.history.com/news/sars-outbreak-china-lessons

This country 110 miles away from Mainland China has not had to lockdown at all to fight COVID-19: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwanese-authorities-stay-vigilant-virus-crisis-eases-n1188781

Singapore had a good start in fighting the coronavirus, but missed a blind spot in implementing public health measures among their marginalized migrant worker population: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/singapore-coronavirus-outbreak-migrant-workers.html


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## Spectre (Jan 23, 2004)

The way I see this coronavirus outbreak, we got really *lucky *in the US that this was not a bio-terrorism or bio-warfare attack or that COVID-19 is not more transmissible or fatal. We are clearly not taking the necessary precautions in many states to keep COVID-19 from spreading. (Example of successful measures that kept Taiwan from having to lock down at all: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwanese-authorities-stay-vigilant-virus-crisis-eases-n1188781)

Imagine when we are (at some point in the future) hit by a virus engineered to be a bio-warfare weapon. A nightmare situation might be a virus with these characteristics:


*Highly Transmissible*: Measles (1 person infects about 15 other people verus COVID-19 which has a 1:3 infection rate that is slightly higher than the flu
*Long Incubation period with ability to transmit during the asymptomatic phase*: Like COVID-19 in which people that did know they were infected were transmitting the infection for several days or a week
*High mortality rate after a long incubation period*: The mortality rate of MERS was 35%, of SARS was 14-15%, of smallpox is 1% for one form of the smallpox and 30% for the other form of smallpox. The mortality rate for COVID-19 seems to be about 2-3% or 20-30 times the 0.095% mortality rate for the flu.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> Wait, so we're only supposed to listen to professionals in the field or it is ok to do our own research with our own best interest at stake?
> 
> We are one of only 2 nations in the world that advertise drugs directly to the public. You may want to go back and look at the floodgates of money and resulting influence that's had on our system top to bottom. It's quite astonishing actually.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Do your own research if you have the ability, but self diagnosing is rarely helpful.

Don't confuse treatment with advertising.

Very few providers (none) pay attention to advertising, but many consumers pay attention to advertising, THEN they go talk to their providers.

Big Pharma was put on notice a few years ago and they were no longer allowed to aggressively market to providers, hence the shift to consumer advertising.

I haven't spoken to a drug rep in at least six months.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

ok this guy makes sense...






His position is basically the same as mine has been since this sh*tshow started..

it doesn't matter if you die of covid or starvation or bad health outcomes caused by poverty... at a certain point you have to start realizing there isn't a no harm option here.. harm mitigation is the only viable strategy.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Have met him. Nice guy


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

atarione said:


> ok this guy makes sense...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you if the virus is deadly(mostly) to people who were not healthy Billions $ do not change that. The problem is the trillion$$$ being given to a few just like they gave to big banks and GM and they celebrate giving themselves HUGE BONUS. The survivors will not get that debt down so it is a gift to the next generations. Than comes the huge costs of climate... U get it, send trillions to a few. People are scared focus on surviving and get abused.
That is the HUGE VIRUS. There will be no rich country, just a bunch of HUGELY RICH$$$.
Some remember the freedom 55 ads.
That is dead.
They decided it is work till you die.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Good thing that working is good for you 



33red said:


> They decided it is work till you die.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

33red said:


> I agree with you if the virus is deadly(mostly) to people who were not healthy Billions $ do not change that. The problem is the trillion$$$ being given to a few just like they gave to big banks and GM and they celebrate giving themselves HUGE BONUS. The survivors will not get that debt down so it is a gift to the next generations. Than comes the huge costs of climate... U get it, send trillions to a few. People are scared focus on surviving and get abused.
> That is the HUGE VIRUS. There will be no rich country, just a bunch of HUGELY RICH$$$.
> Some remember the freedom 55 ads.
> That is dead.
> They decided it is work till you die.


I mean absolutely you guys are right.. the constant giving o billions to the rich is pretty egregious.. We have failed as a country to protect the individual from the corporations.. Still having hundreds of thousands of Americans dropping dead from poverty / lack of medical coverage reasons due to massive unemployment isn't going to fix that either...

It is actually even worse if you look at the global situation millions of people could starve in developing nations if the shutdowns continue... and for what...

if no viable treatment arrives flattening the curve just means if you are going to die of the virus you are going to do it a few months later .... yay?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

atarione said:


> I mean absolutely you guys are right.. the constant giving o billions to the rich is pretty egregious.. We have failed as a country to protect the individual from the corporations.. Still having hundreds of thousands of Americans dropping dead from poverty / lack of medical coverage reasons due to massive unemployment isn't going to fix that either...
> 
> It is actually even worse if you look at the global situation millions of people could starve in developing nations if the shutdowns continue... and for what...
> 
> if no viable treatment arrives flattening the curve just means if you are going to die of the virus you are going to do it a few months later .... yay?


I have no clue what will happen, but if south america and africa gets empty, most die, some will have their 10th condo there. The continents might be stolen. Time will tell but at 62 yo i remember there was a story about an animal enjoying the summer while an other was making provisions for the winter.
Well i prepared for the bad days so this morning i went for a ride, than a short ride in the afternoon and it was such a nice sunny day that i took more sun on my balcony.
No drama when we live simply, there is no fear to loose and being relaxed increases the health. Just a positive spiral.
No car, no paiement, no cell just a few bikes.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Spectre said:


> The way I see this coronavirus outbreak, we got really *lucky *in the US that this was not a bio-terrorism or bio-warfare attack or that COVID-19 is not more transmissible or fatal. We are clearly not taking the necessary precautions in many states to keep COVID-19 from spreading. (Example of successful measures that kept Taiwan from having to lock down at all:


Could very well likely have been intentional on China's part to let the virus spread.

But we'll never know the truth.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

matt4x4 said:


> Could very well likely have been intentional on China's part to let the virus spread.
> 
> But we'll never know the truth.


That's crazy talk


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Crazy talk


Part 1





Part 2


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## Unbrockenchain (Aug 21, 2015)

atarione said:


> ok this guy makes sense...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was the most level headed discussion on this situation I have heard. Unfortunately it gets drowned out by the extreme news media's. There is unfortunately no room in the middle anymore!!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

More level headedness... https://www.bitchute.com/video/VgUIcmoqJ7I/


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

In2falling said:


> Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A few seconds in I saw it was Tyler. Nuff proof for me


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Last Vit-D post (Nurse Ben will be happy). Best one I have found and worth the hour of your time.






Adding this one.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

Opinions are like assholes....everyone has one. Yep, I am a registered respiratory therapist since 1990, that and five cents gets me across the Brooklyn Bridge. So you have the opinion of an RN on here? sure...OK. I have experienced other pandemics in my time as an RRT back in Los Angeles, remember AIDS in west Hollywood? and elsewhere? I worked at Cedars -Sinai, we got through that.Get a grip.We will prevail.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

jupiter58 said:


> Opinions are like assholes....everyone has one. Yep, I am a registered respiratory therapist since 1990, that and five cents gets me across the Brooklyn Bridge. So you have the opinion of an RN on here? sure...OK. I have experienced other pandemics in my time as an RRT back in Los Angeles, remember AIDS in west Hollywood? and elsewhere? I worked at Cedars -Sinai, we got through that.Get a grip.We will prevail.


So, what are your thoughts on COVID-19 and how all this is playing out?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

jupiter58 said:


> Opinions are like assholes....everyone has one. Yep, I am a registered respiratory therapist since 1990, that and five cents gets me across the Brooklyn Bridge. So you have the opinion of an RN on here? sure...OK. I have experienced other pandemics in my time as an RRT back in Los Angeles, remember AIDS in west Hollywood? and elsewhere? I worked at Cedars -Sinai, we got through that.Get a grip.We will prevail.


Curious where you're working, or not working? Since hospitals in areas with low infection rates are empty because no one wants to go unless absolutely necessary.
Speaking of Brooklyn Bridge. On a sunny day


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

jupiter58 said:


> Opinions are like assholes....everyone has one. Yep, I am a registered respiratory therapist since 1990, that and five cents gets me across the Brooklyn Bridge. So you have the opinion of an RN on here? sure...OK. I have experienced other pandemics in my time as an RRT back in Los Angeles, remember AIDS in west Hollywood? and elsewhere? I worked at Cedars -Sinai, we got through that.Get a grip.We will prevail.


I don't have a negative opinion whatsoever of Nurse Ben. Know a ICU nurse and very much appreciate the work nurses and medical providers provide., very tough job taking care of sick people and often times thankless. If I offended him or any other medical providers here, I apologize.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Get a grip. We will prevail.


Indeed.
Open for business around here.....
Retirement account nearly recovered.
People on the move again.
Cautiously Optimistic.
Headed to Sonic for ice cream.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Indeed.
> Open for business around here.....
> Retirement account nearly recovered.
> People on the move again.
> ...


Nice! I approve. Ice cream in your freezer better than Lysol in your lungs. Spread the word


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In2falling said:


> I don't have a negative opinion whatsoever of Nurse Ben. Know a ICU nurse and very much appreciate the work nurses and medical providers provide., very tough job taking care of sick people and often times thankless. If I offended him or any other medical providers here, I apologize.


I'm actually a nurse practitioner, so a little different than a nurse.

It's not really so much about opinions as it is about experience and insight.

If someone doesn't agree with my opinions on an anonymous social media platform, that's not exactly surprising.

Then again, I've been right on target so far, so that's worth some consideration 

There are certainly people who know more than me, but since when has knowledge driven rational decision making ...


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Everyone's an expert online.


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## tony92231 (Oct 13, 2015)

Cornfield said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/transmission.html
> 
> How COVID-19 Spreads
> 
> ...


That was an excellent post based on facts from the medical experts


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

CDC seems trustworthy


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

OldBlue950 said:


> Yes, it varies widely based on state. Up to a cutoff point I think, where it doesn't go any higher. The temporary $600 covid payment does not vary.


I filed for unemployment a couple of weeks ago because the Payroll protection program for small businesses has been drained to fill a swamp  I jumped thru many hoops on that one, but the cupboard was bare, and likely to remain so. Since all my work has disappeared with no hope for a good while yet, I went for UI. First time in my life for anything like that. 
It does indeed vary state to state, but I believe the basics are the same. In AZ they calculate what you earned in the last 3 complete quarters and extrapolate from there. If you earned a decent salary as I did, you qualify for the max allowable. In AZ that is $240 pw. This is taxed so it ends up being $214. Then you add the $600 from the feds per week, also taxed, and you wind up with a hair under 800 bucks a week. Not bad as long as you don't get any bills! Not sure how we'll manage when leftover savings run out, but we'll figure something out.
Also, because of CV 19, the requirements to look for work are waived for the duration. I wonder what will happen when the "restrictions are lifted" whatever that means! at 64 years old I'm not too keen at the prospect of having to stock shelves


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

matt4x4 said:


> CDC seems trustworthy


What? Really? Oh I get it sarcasm, took me a minute...

The CDC as corrupt as WHO just nationally not globally. IMO.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

gdb85 said:


> What? Really? Oh I get it sarcasm, took me a minute...
> 
> The CDC as corrupt as WHO just nationally not globally. IMO.


Just like some charities they give 2% because the person who started them get a HUGE salary.
Or some use *special name* to sound good like maybe...
Trumpette University.

They do dirty work but their name sounds good.

Like rescue plan, they give money, well the 2,000$ received comes with a 15,000$ to repay and it is not an option.
Realy shitty stuff happening under fear.
In Canada we just got 10,000$canadian in the hole per tax payer in 3 months.
It should cover for a year but who knows?
It is sunny so time to ride n smile


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

rynomx785 said:


> So, what are your thoughts on COVID-19 and how all this is playing out?


Darwinian Guinea Pigs Rule ln The Corporate Monetary Model...https://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/3135188-covid-virus-phoenix-96.html


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

UpTheAnte said:


> Darwinian Guinea Pigs Rule ln The Corporate Monetary Model...https://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/3135188-covid-virus-phoenix-96.html


Interesting insight. The divide and disconnect of financial classes...
Market makes it obvious, imo


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

The CDC site has data presented on 05/01/2020 that is good from 02/01/2020 through 04/25/2020. That was a provisional value of 37,308 COVID-19 deaths.

These are "Deaths involving COVID-19" (ICD-code U07.1)
Again, provisional and up until 25 April.

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku

Of the "COVID-19 deaths" alone, 79% are 65 and over with 92% of the deaths in the group 55 and over.

51 total deaths in the 24 and younger group.


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Michel Foucault's...Biopower*



theMeat said:


> Interesting insight. The divide and disconnect of financial classes...
> Market makes it obvious, imo


Have a look >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopower


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## UpTheAnte (Mar 7, 2018)

*Bat Soup or Coincidence ?*

Ingredients;
NIAID ( National Institute of Health )
ACE2 receptor 
Zheng-Li Shi ( missing and found Chinese woman scientist ) click author tab for better history.
Fundings section is fun, on November 30, 2017 all parties were aware of this Research Article.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Macbeth ( Act IV Scene 1 )
William Shakespear

bon appétit...https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

UpTheAnte said:


> Zheng-Li Shi ( missing and found Chinese woman scientist


Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, wait just a minute here! You mean the amateur internet sleuth who started the rumor that she had, ahem, gone "missing", and therefore was somehow involved in releasing the virus... was WRONG?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I cannot be alone.
I remember on the 9-11 morning seeing on TV the second plane hit.
Instantly i said too bad, they wont get it.
Then Bush had his big banner MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
Now you are still getting the banner.
Too bad the facts are not on your side.
Will you wake up?


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

theMeat said:


> Curious where you're working, or not working? Since hospitals in areas with low infection rates are empty because no one wants to go unless absolutely necessary.
> Speaking of Brooklyn Bridge. On a sunny day


 lately NICU, PICU, a few years back, CCU, ICU and fixed wing inter facility transports (ventilated) LTACS way back. We suffered relatively low losses here in Idaho. My condolences to all in the hard hit areas. Seems sparsely populated areas were spared.


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## gdb85 (Mar 4, 2017)

UpTheAnte said:


> Have a look >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopower


I'm not as educated as most on here but this sorta aligns with our govenors that keep using the word "safe". They're protecting us from ourselves, how thoughtful. SAFE means control as long as they keep us safe they are in control.


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