# Custom light people, the time is now!



## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Hey Everyone,

Many of you may recall that we tried to take the Yinding design, which had some great features, improve on it and take it to the next level. To create a quality budget light that is better than anything out there now and is built with the features that we, the riders, want and need.

Last attempt was hampered by the need to reach a presale amount that was lofty and not worth the effort.

Well, Good news! Gearbest finally has the green light to build a custom light without needing a presale commitment. They asked me to write the forum and start the conversation on what to build. Of course the standards like neutral LEDs, programmable drivers and thermal transfer are must.

So what do you think? Where should we start?


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

Good heat management! Reliability! Compact! Few functions, high "install and forget" level.


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## Moguo (Apr 3, 2012)

sounds great !

I'd like a gopro mount

nice to have if it's not too much trouble : 
wireless button

is this a 2 emitter or 3 emitter light ?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.

1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
3) Gopro style mount.
4) Wired or wireless remote control.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Good to see you back at it, GJHS
Here's the list of wishes I compiled from last time we had this discussion.



varider said:


> At the bare minimum we should go for a very bright triple with lots of heatsinking.
> 
> I'll read the thread again later today but if I recall correctly the most requested things were
> 1) programmable driver
> ...


Who's manufacturing this light, is it Yinding?

For those that don't remember, we also challenged the folks at ITUO to build us the type of light (LINK). They agreed and made a prototype which they sent to Skyraider59. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/ituo-wiz-xp3-triple-xm-l2-u3-bike-light-1002379.html
They are still working on their final version, but it was supposed to be released in the next few months.

So this is perhaps the second manufacturer to take up our challenge.

I should probably mention that there were a couple of people who were burned/cheated in their dealing with Gearbest with the Nitefighter orders. So Gearbest may have lost some good will there. They have been good to me however, so I would trust them going forward.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

triple neutral emitter. Quality mount, no rubber bands. Wired remote, that can be unplugged (wireless would be ideal) quality top button. Optics changes easily. Drive it hard to 2800-3000lm! Price: $29.95 lighthead only. Add $5 for a Nitefighter bt21 case!
I need another one!!


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok a bit more info, this will not be built on any preexisting case, nor are there any plans, shapes or designs, so post your ideas and drawings.

I would like to see a triple myself, maybe with a combo spot/flood setup like the Nitenumen. That light had an amazing beam pattern, best of both worlds in a small light. I think light head only and a strong focus on thermal transfer and cooling which is lacking in all Chinese lights.

There is no info on who will build it, they only promised that it won't be a _____fire company. And as last time, the light head will be sent out to 2 or more testers before being built.

Varider: Gearbest knows the problems of Nitefighter (now Revtech) all too well. I asked about them getting the new BT21S and its confirmed that Revtech will start production and build it for us. However Gearbest asked me to skip that project for now because of all the quality issues that Nitefighter sent out.


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

I really like the functions of the KD driver, even if the modulation could be better and the LEDs harder driven.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

This is pretty much my list too.
Programmable levels like KD, and I would like to see less PWM flicker at lower power levels.
GoPro mount
One narrow and one medium optic
Neutral white
Button on top is easier than on back. I don't care about remote.

If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.



kwarwick said:


> Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.
> 
> 1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
> 2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
> ...


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS said:


> I think light head only and a strong focus on thermal transfer and cooling which is lacking in all Chinese lights.


Yes, there has to be a thick wall behind the leds with only a small hole to pass the wires through. Not the led board resting on a small lip construction of the Solarstorm lights.

So are Gearbest designing this light in-house? Someone needs to do some actual thermal engineering and not just throwing things together. That's the part that's always skipped in cheap Chinese light manufacturing.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Looks like we all have a bit different ideas of what works best for us.

Personally I don't need mind blowing lumens on the lid but more prefer a spot and dual emitter. Maybe like 1000 lumens of spot that will have good throw.

And most impt to me is very very small and maybe a 2 cell battery that can be attached to the back of the helmet so everything is on the helmet. And a good mount, GoPro, etc.

MB


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Ofroad'bent said:


> If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
> It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
> My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.


I also like very much how the TaskLED drivers work in what is called "Threemode". Basically you have 3 levels (low, medium, high)... it will start up from low and with each click go to medium and then high. From that point when you click it will toggle between high and medium... only if you click longer (called press I believe) then the light will go down to low and then one more press will turn the light off. I find this ideal for mountain biking where you really want to minimize the amount of time your hands are off the handlebar.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Nice to see you back in the game! I "pulled out" of it myself. Too many headaches.

As for this build. Think the guys have covered it pretty well. Proper thermal path, enough surface area to be useful, remote, and not another dual emitter or simple round style light.

I do have several reservations though being vender that's handling it with keeping some form of descent and consistent quality after the group buy projects I've purchased on BLF. And I've been "corrupted" by branded lights (and now making my own as I have time)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

Yep, 1+ on compact dual emitter with a nice spot for helmet.



mb323323 said:


> Looks like we all have a bit different ideas of what works best for us.
> 
> Personally I don't need mind blowing lumens on the lid but more prefer a spot and dual emitter. Maybe like 1000 lumens of spot that will have good throw.
> 
> ...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thing is we have a bunch of dual emitter lights already. Need something different in my opinion. All the add ons were talking already exist for barely above the price point this would be. Gemini duo, gloworm x2.

But besides remote and programming, you guys are asking for a Yinding. Can't make them any smaller or lighter than that and still get 1000 lumens output.



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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Personally I vote for a triple, since I already have 4 or 5 cheap doubles. I thought the whole point was to build something that's way better than a Yinding.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Yep I'm with ya, triple. A double? Yawn....


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

kwarwick said:


> Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.
> 
> 1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
> 2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
> ...


...^^^...what he said.. A triple of course. A wireless remote would be nice but I'll not push for that. User switchable optics a must. Definitely needs to be programmable ( similar to the Gemini's ). Anything that can be done to improve heat management would be a big plus.

Of course if this turns out to be just a cheap Chinese lamp with typical stuff ( three steady modes and flash ) it might still be worth having if the LED's are Cree ( neutral white ...4700K ) and it uses typical optics that can be user switchable. I'm not going to be expecting Gloworm or ITUO quality ( although, that would be a nice surprise if it were to happen. ).


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Dirt Road said:


> Yep I'm with ya, triple. A double? Yawn....


Triples are hard because you either need a boost driver or multiple buck drivers.
I want a wireless double that will pair one remote with two lights.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd like to see the nightfighter void filled, with something that addresses the Yinding/Gemini shortcomings.
More heat sink, better software, best emitters and optics...
I need more lights like a hole in the head, but my friends are always asking.
1500 real lumens should be feasible in a double too, if not 2000 with monster heat sinking.



tigris99 said:


> Thing is we have a bunch of dual emitter lights already. Need something different in my opinion. All the add ons were talking already exist for barely above the price point this would be. Gemini duo, gloworm x2.
> 
> But besides remote and programming, you guys are asking for a Yinding. Can't make them any smaller or lighter than that and still get 1000 lumens output.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Ofroad'bent said:


> I'd like to see the nightfighter void filled, with something that addresses the Yinding/Gemini shortcomings.
> More heat sink, better software, best emitters and optics...
> I need more lights like a hole in the head, but my friends are always asking.
> 1500 real lumens should be feasible in a double too, if not 2000 with monster heat sinking.


For my needs I tend to agree. I have high hopes that the soon to be released Ituo XP-2 will satisfy all the requirements you described. In fact my wiz20 would give you what you asked for with the exception of only producing approx. 1400 lumens which is probably a compromise to give it good runtime considering it is self contained. If it's anything like my Wiz20 the jump in quality would more than justify the fact that the XP-2 will cost more than your typical Chinese light. Potential is there.

A triple seems to be what most on this thread want and what I hope they end up producing. I'm surprised little has been said about price range. I assume it will need to in the "budget range" to be a sales success for Gearbest. That being said I'm hoping more for a simple triple with good performance, heat management and reasonable quality as opposed to one with a bunch of features that ends up being of lesser quality and unreliable. I'd also like to see Gearbest persue an improved BT21s. With better/more consistent quality the BT21s would be by far the best inexpensive performance light and I'm sure they could sell a ton of them.
Mole.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

znomit said:


> Triples are hard because you either need a boost driver or multiple buck drivers.
> I want a wireless double that will pair one remote with two lights.


Triples aren't hard at all:

Boost driver is commonly used on existing triples. Nothing difficult about it.

And I don't know anything about multiple buck drivers. Doesn't exist and those of us that mod flashlights have tripples that run on a single 18650. No boost driver. It's a standard buck driver no different than anything else. Instead 3 emitters ran in parallel. No different than running 1 emitter.

So nothing about triples are difficult at all and they are done all the time just fine.

As for lights on wireless remotes that allow you to run multiple lights off one remote already exist. Gemini, Xeccon, and others make them. I dont think were going to save much money on the cost of these lights being done that way versus just buying what already exists.

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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Boost drivers are hard on batteries and give shorter than expected runtimes IME. As the battery voltage drops, the driver draws more current from the battery in an attempt to maintain output. The battery's ability to provide that increased current drops during the discharge of the battery. Often the battery protection circuit shuts off the discharge prematurely since the voltage sag of the battery under the high current demand goes below the low voltage threshold of the protection circuit.

Parallel emitters often end up being under driven due to current limitations of the driver. A parallel configured triple XM-L2 can easily use 9A with good heatsinking. Not many 9A capable drivers out there, particularly in a compact size.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Good points but realistically no need to push emitters to 3A. 

The size of the head to deal with the heat kills any idea of a compact light. I have found that at 2A each, things are much easier to deal with. 6A drivers still are pushing limits for compact size.

I'm personally not seeing any issues with a boost driver done right. The 2 lights I have that use them though the current draw does increase a bit once voltage drops enough, doesn't mess with runtime enough to really matter if using good cells.

Cheap cells in either application are going to have issues. But my Panasonic cells have 0 issues running my XS. And my xs produces far more total lumens versus Watts drawn from pack than any dual emitter light I own. XS, yinding, bt21, Duo. XS is using over 500mA less current to match lumen output.

I wasn't a fan of boost drivers either till I put my XS on my Fenix case with NCR18650GA cells. Made all my dual emitter lights look bad for how much of my pack was left after a ride. What would be max on X2, duo, etc is around 2.25A current draw. My XS does the 1500 lumens at 1.5-1.6A current draw. So I would run at 1500 all the time, go all out on the decents and after a 45min ride(I did turn down for longer climb, break at the top), only used about 1000mah from the ~3500mah I have.

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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

We had all this worked out a year ago, after discussing it for nearly a month. I'm not sure we need to rehash everything. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ustom-inexpensive-well-made-light-959005.html

I don't get the sudden need for the dual led lights. Don't you guys already have enough of these? The refurbished glowwom x2 were on sale for around $60-$70 a couple of months ago. That didn't satisfy your needs?

Let's just get this done while the iron is still hot. Just getting something that isn't complete garbage is going to be hard enough, nevermind our extensive list of wishes. 
Gearbest has a pretty short attention span, and their employees seem to rotate frequently leaving us back at square one.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

**^^...Yep!..:yesnod:

Eventually someone will remake the BT21, just a matter of time. The plans are out there. Someone just has to buy the rights to the product or just produce their own clone. If the BT21 is eventually reintroduced it should only have 3 steady modes that are programmable and include a GoPro mount.

I'm looking for a cheap triple from Gearbest. I'm thinking a Yinding but with an extra emitter and a slightly larger overall size for better heat management. Six amp driver should be enough. Gopro mount would be a big plus. I'm getting tired of dealing with cheap O-ring mounts when it comes to heavier lamps. 

In the meantime I'm still waiting for ITUO to release a triple. If they do it will probably end up being one of their biggest sellers since there aren't many triples already being sold.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Ofroad'bent said:


> If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
> It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
> My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.


I finally got round to writing a bit of code into one of the freely available ATTiny13 firmwares to do this and flashed it into a 2.1A Nanjg I had lying around. Put it into my single cell rechargeable commuter light and it works wonderfully. Also goes straight to high from off with a long press, but I'd have to dig in to find out how it does that. Also have some thermistors to enable overtemp response, but that and a on-and-flashing mom switch firmware are on the to do list.

Still haven't gotten round to building that 2 up light I had planned about 3 years ago, too busy working on my tools!


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

A good simple triple is prolly a slam-dunk in the sales dept. No funky pyramids or bat wings! 3 across with a top button. I seriously wonder who Gearbest has in mind to mfg this light.....


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

So are there any NW or WW emitters out there now on 20 or 16mm stars with 90+CRI?

Reason I ask, have recently converted entire house to LED and found the Hyperikon bulbs with high CRI really beat the completion to heck. As some of you might recall, I'd been temporarily repurposing some NW bike lamps as spot lighting in the kitchen and while the narrow beam patterns worked great for task lighting, have to admit that the color spectrum was pretty piss poor. Made wood surfaces look like cardboard and food unappetizing. But Hyperikon's 3000K and even better their 2700K (as well as Philips' 2700K, though the latter is only 85CRI) give beautiful light at high efficacy (and Philips is over 100 Lumens per Watt.) Am so spoiled now, won't consider buying another bike lamp until it's offered over 90CRI, and preferably 3000K. Sacrilege I know but even the cheapo Utilitech LED security lamps I have outside my house throw better light than any of my many NW bike lamps.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Your spoiled on CRI more than color temp. There are emitters that you'd like but output is rather low compared to NW and CW bins.

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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I would be up for a high CRI emitter, although it's not an absolute necessity for me.

According to the data sheet make the cree xm-l2 in 70, 80,85, and 90 cri version. 
http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...-Modules/XLamp/Data-and-Binning/XLampXML2.pdf

There's a line in the data sheet (page 3) that typical neutral white CRI is 75 versus a CRI of 65 for cool white. I think this may contributing factor in why some people prefer a neutral white emitter over a cool white.

The high CRI lights do sacrifice a lot in lumen output over a similar NW. For example, according to the chart. 
NW - U2 (XMLBWT-00-0000-000LU20E4) puts out 728 lumens at 2 amps. Compared to 
90 CRI - T2 (XMLBWT-00-0000-000UT20E7) puts out only 485 lumens.

That's a big difference. I don't know how much the high CRI aspect of the emitter compensates for the reductions in lumen output.

I think it would also be tough to get a budget manufacturer to put in the specific emitter we want, they are likely to just to swap in the cheapest available option.

I think it was Yinding that put in a weird tint in their early NW lights and that created a huge rift between them and Gearbest, as Yinding didn't want to fix the problem. Gearbest ended up sucking up the cost of switching the boards to a better tint (instead of Yinding) and this killed off the last years attempt at an improved triple led light.

For me the priority is just getting a light made.

Maybe we could just swap out the emitter ourselves. Perhaps we can get them to make a light in which the emitters are mounted on stars instead of those one-piece boards.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Cat-man-do said:


> **^^...Yep!..:yesnod:
> 
> Eventually someone will remake the BT21, just a matter of time. The plans are out there. Someone just has to buy the rights to the product or just produce their own clone. If the BT21 is eventually reintroduced it should only have 3 steady modes that are programmable and include a GoPro mount.


As mentioned, GB can get the BT21S made, already negotiated. Problem is Nitefighter/Revtech quality issues that keep that project risky to sellers who have to eat the costs. Once bitten, twice shy.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Well I suspect the high CRI emitters out there now in consumer LEDs are not Cree. Because their own line of bulbs are really behind the times (heavy, full of exposed heat sinking, low output, early failures) and don't get the best reviews. Hypericon's spot lights are all single emitter and while perhaps not quite as efficacious as their domed bulbs, are still pretty decent. They have a 93CRI 14W 2700K PAR38 which supposedly puts out 1200 Lumens, their otherwise identical 4000K "Daylight" throws 1260. And new improved models keep coming out. That's why I figure it is just a matter of time until high CRI emitters at or above 100 Lumens per Watt should become available on stars for bike lamps, though perhaps not from Cree. I can wait.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

For the high CRI matter, the best way to get it and keep decent output is nichia 219c. 2A drive current is over 600 lumens. Don't remember how much though. 80+ Cree. I have some in a flashlight. Best CRI and tint I've got.

The sacrificing of lumens for CRI isn't going to be offset on a gap that large. 1-2 bins is about the gap CRI can make up for in actual real world use. But NW emitters are usually at or no more than 1 bin below the highest output cool white bin. So less than 100 lumens difference.

CRI isn't the only factor for cool white versus neutral white though. Cool white due to its overall tint reflects badly off every little thing in the air (and it's almost blinding in very moist air) where as neutral white takes a lot more lumens to create anywhere near the glare you get.

Neutral down to warm white on the other hand the change isn't as significant, not even close. The CRI you can definitely see the difference but it doesn't make up for the steep lumens loss.

Balance of the 2 is hard to achieve to say the least. Partially because each person is different, so their eyes and perception will be different. Then simply having or not having a strong hot spot changes the perception of the CRI. Strong hot spot, the higher the CRI needed to compensate. More wide spread and less intense the light, the less the CRI difference is noticed and lumens/tint takes over.

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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

varider said:


> I would be up for a high CRI emitter, although it's not an absolute necessity for me.
> 
> According to the data sheet make the cree xm-l2 in 70, 80,85, and 90 cri version.
> http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...-Modules/XLamp/Data-and-Binning/XLampXML2.pdf
> ...


Yes, the problem with using "neutral white" LED's over cool white has always been finding the best compromise between output over CRI. Every time there is a change in bin ( T-6, U2, U3..etc. ) there will be ( or won't be ) an emitter with the desired CRI/tint. Not to mention that sometimes you really don't know what you're getting until you can actual see what it looks like with your own eyes.

I wish I knew what CRI my eyes like the best or what CRI gave the best compromise when it came to output vs. tint. If I could figure that out it would make shopping for emitters so much easier. Once again though, the people selling the emitters don't always list CRI for the products that they sell.

Anyway, in keeping with what you first said; I noticed right away that the neutral white emitters used by Gloworm in my refurb'd X2 are nowhere near as bright at the one I have using cool white. For me this is no problem but others might not like the loss in throw. Nevertheless, GW did their homework and chose the right neutral white tint. The Chinese on the other hand who might make us another cheap lamp aren't going to necessarily do that....although I will say that Gearbest got it right when they did the neutral white Solarstorms so there is hope.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thing with tint is that like the X2, the lumen output is identical, so one is actually not brighter than the other. Cool white appears brighter because the eyes are sensitive to it, which is why you see less,not more. Plus the low CRI adds to the issue. 

Part of the reason cool white and high CRI don't exist is because they can't. The 2 don't work together because of the way our eyes are. Plus again, the human eye doesn't like blueish light. The cones for that color are towards the outside. So it severly hinders being able to see in the dark. Making it much more difficult to see anywhere the light is not pointed.

CRI is only par of the equation, the actual color of the light produced is the other part and how the eye responds to it. Those that prefer cool white is either do to some form of eye damage or mentally "stuck" on it because it appears brighter.

If you watch my review video on the nitecore light. It does a really good job of showing exactly how much more difficult it is to see clearly with cool white versus neutral white.

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## leaftye (Dec 27, 2007)

Would any of you guys be up for designing one, or several, in house using off the shelf parts like those available at Mtn Electronics or Illumn? If we can do that, I'd be up for machining the prototypes for some of us to test, and then someone else can run production with it. I only have access to a 3 axis cnc mill right now, but am working on getting a 4 axis mill operational.

I've been wanting to try something like this for a while, but with my focus on making chips these days, I don't have time to find some of the components, for example, the seal on the opening for the battery wire, or lighted switches and the drivers they'd work with. I'm hoping we can combine are strengths and get the light we want.

All I know is that I want it to be bright, and if heat and weight is an issue, then I want to see about trying to transfer that heat into the handlebar or stem.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have designs, I have the parts but no way I could be paid enough to give then to places like Gearbest and their suppliers.

Only because I don't want to see my ideas turned into cheap Chinese crap.

I wish I had a nice milling set up to do the machining, my way works but takes a lot of finishing work and many limitations.

This would be where DIY just comes in. Only because WHY let these random companies that have no connection to Cycling make a bunch of money off all our work. No issues giving them ideas but no way I would hand over a project like that for them to turn into another cheap light.

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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

tigris99 said:


> I have designs, I have the parts but no way I could be paid enough to give then to places like Gearbest and their suppliers.
> 
> Only because I don't want to see my ideas turned into cheap Chinese crap.


+1 on this!

Quite nice of leaftye to offer to machine prototype housing to suit a bunch of high end components. Some really cool lights could be built. Those designs and components would never fully make it into a "budget priced" Chinese light. They have to cut corners on construction details and use low quality components to hit low price points.


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## hankering (Dec 28, 2014)

*I'd suggested this at BLF (having been through the Yinding thing here)*

Get RMM [MtnElectronics] to build you the driver, with components up to spec - avoid the "some of them work fine" problem from having corners cut here and there on parts, production moved to cheaper suppliers midstream, and so on.

Just take it for granted China is China and get what they do well and not the rest.

Get some of the production made as a host - so people can get emitters and driver that will be higher reliability.

[but, even better, get the folks who've offered here to do the bodywork too]

Search on "temperature sensor" [at BLF] and consider some of the problems described implementing them so far - there are suggestions of components recently becoming cheap enough to incorporate that haven't made it into production yet, somewhere in those discussions.

If the light will overheat sitting still, as a good bike light probably should do:
- make it shut down or shut off when it's not moving
- if it's ramped down, let it ramp back up as you get moving again and move faster


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

A great idea to build a prototype! Im not sure about Gearbest keeping the mfg in line with original specs. but hey, ya never know.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

RMM building a driver.....

We're kind of already working on that, been testing the prototypes, going to be going in the heads I'm machining.

Not designs I'm going to share though for a budget Chinese light, sorry.


But they don't need any help with that over in China, the drivers and firmware already exist. For the price point you guys want the driver is still going to be cheap. The components needed to build at the quality RMM does bring the driver price way up.

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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Dirt Road said:


> .......Im not sure about Gearbest keeping the mfg in line with original specs. but hey, ya never know.


So far, the Chinese light builders/sellers have not been able to do that. This forum is full of light reviews that started out with great reviews of the early production and then end with quality and/or delivery problems.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Vancbiker said:


> So far, the Chinese light builders/sellers have not been able to do that. This forum is full of light reviews that started out with great reviews of the early production and then end with quality and/or delivery problems.


To be fair we've even seen complete crap sent out for review too.

I really just want a yinding with the KD10 UI and the option for XPG. Deeper heat fins is a bonus, bigger screws that don't strip when you look at them would be nice too I guess.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Why would you want xpg emitters, xpg is extremely outdated.

Xp-l hi is better in every way and has the same beam pattern and throw as xpg/xpg2 except more efficient over 1A current and much higher output

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

New nichia's 90+ cri. That mite work!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Output is lacking on that high of CRI. I'd good with it myself as I don't need ridiculous lumens too ride but too many people think lumens are what matters 

219c is really nice though. Good mid point of CRI vs output imo

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## leaftye (Dec 27, 2007)

I can understand why some of you guys are concerned about chinese resellers taking all the hard work. That bugs me a bit too, but I've accepted that I'm not at a spot where I'm able to develop and produce my own light right now, so I'd rather contribute to an open source type project even though the risk of open source is that someone else will profit off it. Fwiw, there's nothing stopping one of you guys from getting it produced in the USA if you have enough money. Unfortunately I don't think I could afford that type of light unless I make it myself and don't value my time.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Not so much about someone making money off the effort, but taking something good and reducing it to a POS by cost cutting.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

My personal experience is my Nitefighter bt21 won't get turbo when the temps drop like last freakin night. Luckily my Ituo is unfazed by such trivialities. I'm glad there's another player in the mid price point. Budget lights are fun but something inevitably gets fubared.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

leaftye said:


> Would any of you guys be up for designing one, or several, in house using off the shelf parts like those available at Mtn Electronics or Illumn? If we can do that, I'd be up for machining the prototypes for some of us to test, and then someone else can run production with it. I only have access to a 3 axis cnc mill right now, but am working on getting a 4 axis mill operational.


As others have said, I would hate it if others profited from your/our hard work.

By the time you are done making a prototype and testing it properly you are basically half way to creating your own light company. Some of the light companies get a substantial part of the manufacturing done in China. Imagine if you placed an big order for the machined parts and drivers and then you all you had to assemble and test the parts. You could turn $100 worth of parts into a $300 light no problem.

I think that there is a chance that we could have a community designed light in the future. The thing that will make it possible will be inexpensive 3D printed metals. I made a rough estimate of the cost last year and it was over $100 for a very small lighthead. The 3D printing process for metals is more complicated than the typical plastic printers you see at Best Buy, hence it is more expensive. A lighthead of the size we need would probably be too expensive.

Anyway these companies need to do their own work. I had faith that Yinding would be able to come up with a good triple, but they messed up their relationship with Gearbest. Solarstorm doesn't understand that there needs to be solid wall behind their led board. Ituo seems to get it but their lights are going to come in at a higher price point.

I think that anything that's even half way decent is going to end up at the higher Gemini/Glowworm/Magicshine price point. Quality manufacturing, reliable parts and quality control are always going to cost more. There's just no way around it.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

@leaftye thanks for the offer, very cool. Case design is top on my list, since most Chinese light do it so poorly. Very few cases have any real thermal transfer nor cooling built in.

I know this project can only go so far on high end specs and keep the price in $50 buck range. I think we should aim for a great case design above all, so at least higher end components and upgrades can be added after if the user wanted. Not saying it will have garbage parts from the factory.

We need to come up with a design with great cooling, thermal transfer, allows for easy swapping of optics and maybe a remote. Running through light designs, I found one that I liked a lot from Candlepowertech. 








I like the fins, simple design, easy to remove front cover, not to mention the led design. I'm not saying copy it exact, rather use it as a baseline. What do you guys think?

What design ideas do you have?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

not bad baseline for doing a simple triple emitter. I am partial to the rounded heads. Not ROUND like a flashlight, but like yinding, x2/xs, etc. Having fins in the direction of airflow is definitely a plus though. the normal way works but in direction of travel is just much more efficient.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I like it. Unique and functional. Heat will not be an issue. But if it doesn't get a top button, it should get a wired remote. Those back switches (bt40) are a pain.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

That looks like some expensive machining to me. 

I do like the looks of the Yinding and actually like the looks of the Solarstorm triples. I may be only one. If the solarstorm had some fins on top it would probably have more than enough surface area to provide good cooling. It would still need a solid wall behind the leds though.

Can something like this be cast instead of machined? That might the cheapest option.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Actually the machining really isn't any more expensive than making a yinding, besides the increased size and time to do the extra machining for the increased size. Making fins like that light is extremely simple.

I actually don't mind the looks of the solarstorm x3 either. But your right, needs more surface area to handle 2k+ lumens. However tbh it isn't a gloworm xs but it handles the heat of 1900+ lumens without much issue for me (I have one I modded to use optics and machined a plate that presses in to give emitters a solid surface to mount to)

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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

This is the kind of stuff many of us did to stock Yindings-
Driver change, Gopro mount with heatsink fins, optic change.
I would have gone with XP-L Hi on copper too, especially if they made a drop-in board.
Custom wish list is to have all these already in a kit or assembled light.



tigris99 said:


> Why would you want xpg emitters, xpg is extremely outdated.
> 
> Xp-l hi is better in every way and has the same beam pattern and throw as xpg/xpg2 except more efficient over 1A current and much higher output
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Any of these lights you gave to be able to solder, can have anything "drop in" but putting xp-l hi in a yinding is pretty close to drop in.

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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Whoa, I refrain from checking for new posts a few weeks and look what I miss! Glad to see this coming around again.

I do really like my Nichia 219C's in my BT40S (modded to 2A per emitter). Very good color rendering. Still love my favorite 5B1 tint (in the XM-L2) for color rendering too. 

I too feel we should pursue a triple. I feel like I have enough doubles and there are many doubles out there. I like the idea of trying to combine flood & throw mixing optics or however. 

-Garry


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Any of these lights you gave to be able to solder, can have anything "drop in" but putting xp-l hi in a yinding is pretty close to drop in.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Weren't there clearance issues and difficulty centering the LEDs on individual round copper boards? I'm thinking MTNElectronics could make a dogbone-shaped copper board with XPL-Hi already on that fits Yinding.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

16mm noctigons fit perfectly fine. And ya centering takes a bit of attention. Still only took a few minutes to do it.

Mtnelectronics isn't going to make a board like that for the 10 people that will actually pay for it (and know how to change in). Just won't be able to do it and it not be expensive in relation to the light.

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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll second that the XP-L HI's into the Yinding is not hard at all; centering wasn't that bad. Need to use the XP-G to XM-L (2) centering adapters (Mtn Elec sells) and those make it pretty easy.

-Garry

(EDIT - Removed "need to reflow" as it was in error. My bad!)


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Don't need to reflow anything, just buy xp-l hi on 16mm noctigons (Mtnelectronics) and 15 mins of work.

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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Oh yeah, Duh! Not sure what I was thinking. Brain checked out a moment I guess. Think I even posted pics in the Yinding thread.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ya same here I think. 

Thats why im not too concerned what emitters are used here, as long as they make the inside similar to the yinding so we can fit 16mm mcbs in there if we want to change emitters.

TBH, Ill probably buy one of these when they happen (help with testing samples if needed since i have the sphere and such) just to add to the collection. Plus been thinking of doing an ACTUAL AND REAL LIGHTS SHOOT OUT. Where there is an actual laid out "competition" (video) so this would be moved into it based on what we end up with in the end of this.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

What about the knewbies like me? I ain't reflowing nothing cept a post ride Corona! Let's get some nichias and quality mcb's inside this tripple!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Nothing wrong with nichia except output will be a lot lower. Some of us would enjoy it but most want lumens. So too specialized is going to kill sales for GB and the manufacturer. Gotta keep it worth it to them.

No need to reflow anything if you can or know someone that can use a soldering iron. Just change the mcpcbs and done.

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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

One thing that I don't understand is this craze for gopro mounts. They build like 10000meters on the hight!!! I like the lupine/gloworm style mounts that is screwed into the side of the light much more.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

Appel said:


> One thing that I don't understand is this craze for gopro mounts. They build like 10000meters on the hight!!! I like the lupine/gloworm style mounts that is screwed into the side of the light much more.


The GoPro thing is more in contrast to the piddly tube-and-o-ring system many of the chinese lights come with. Just as tall and more dorky. There are some really nicely made gopro accessories, and a ton of choice.
I showed a way to mount the light almost flush with a metal gopro connector.

I agree, the side bolt Glowworm solution is nicer, and similar to what I do with my DIY lights.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Don't need to reflow anything, just buy xp-l hi on 16mm noctigons (Mtnelectronics) and 15 mins of work.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


If we don't come up with a dream double here I'll pimp another Yinding with xp-l hi, custom optics and heat sink mount just for fun. Which xp-l hi is the current favourite- there are several on 16mm noctigons at mtnelectronics?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> I'll second that the XP-L HI's into the Yinding is not hard at all. You do need to reflow (I did a YouTube video on Reflowing on the BT40s' quad board), but centering wasn't that bad. Need to use the XP-G to XM-L (2) centering adapters (Mtn Elec sells) and those make it pretty easy.
> 
> -Garry


I didn't think it was possible to reflow XPL onto a board designed for XML. Aren't die and pads different sizes on those two emitters?


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

kwarwick said:


> I didn't think it was possible to reflow XPL onto a board designed for XML. Aren't die and pads different sizes on those two emitters?


I was mistaken in my post above and after I corrected in post#64 I forgot to mention that you can't reflow XP emitters onto an XM-L board. You're right, the pads are different sizes. Sorry if I've confused anyone. I'll edit that post above too.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The only difference in the xp-l emitters is the bin (higher the letter/number the higher the output). And then the tint. So depends on what tint you want. 1A, 2C, 3C....which ever you want.

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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I have three specs that I need clarification on.

Output? How bright, LOTF?

Desrcribe the programmable driver more, how you want it to behave.

Connectors


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Here is what I sent to Gearbest as a list to get a sample made.

Case Design:
1. A small triple LED light, with good cooling and thermal transfer. Deep fins around the case for cooling and a thick shelf to attach the LED plate to. An easy to remove front cover with strong screws and thick square threads on the screws to ensure the screws won't strip or come loose.
2. Case should easily accept optics of different degrees from spot to flood. Specifications to follow.
3. A minimal amount of material should be removed from case to allow thermal transfer from the LEDS to the case for cooling and providing a solid backing for the LED plate.









Emitters:
1. Neutral LED 4700K & Cool White
2. Real Cree LEDs not copies
3. User switchable optics, no reflectors.
4. XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics

Programmable Driver:
1. Thick gauge wire to reduce power loss.
2. Little or no PWM flicker at lower power levels
3. Short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.
4. Raised Button on top, easily pressed with gloves.

Remote:
1. Wired or Wireless (preferred), removable.

Mount
1. Gopro style mount or solid screw mount. No rubber band mount

Please correct or add anything. GB hopes to have a sample next month for review. Keep in mind that they hope this light appeals to all bikers, not just mountain bikers.

No one has a case design that they would like?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I just added two things to the list:

1. Waterproof with good slilicone seals on front cover

2. Waterproof connectors


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Yes, that's a good list.

For the mount I would say gopro mount or a cam lever design such as 
Hope Universal Handlebar Mount | Chain Reaction Cycles
Also the option for a regular rubber band mount? Do we want that?

I didn't understand your picture at all.

I would say put the button on the back so we can get more heat sink fins on top. On the driver, I don't want to cycle through off during the mode rotation. I don't know about the "hold to go down down" UI. It can't hurt though. I'm used to clicking through high to get to the lower levels. Is is better to have two button like the Magicshine 880?


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Nice list. Run with it! I'd like to see 1800-2000lm otf. Case design? Stretch a bt21 clone out to a triple config. Simple and cost effective.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

varider said:


> I didn't understand your picture at all.


Ok ok I'm no artist 

I sent GearBest these too




















and this (Thanks to GarryBunk) to show the difference









Those, plus a good amount of explaining and they now understand.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

*User interface* Light should be usable for commutters too, as I've understand GJHS (in order GB to sell more). If so, we need to include strobe somehow. We have two options:

1. Hidden strobe 
2. Two group of modes

In case of 1. we can simply copy user interface of KD2 driver and have it all (not the best for commuters, though, but can be modified). In case 2. we need to define modes for each gropup, how to switch between them, etc...
Not very simple and hard to agree on all points.

Anyway (my opinion) for MTB usage there should NOT be Off mode in the mode cycle in any way. While short/long press to change modes up/down could be nice you need two more signals. One for Off and one for programming mode, all in all three different long presses. Things starts to complicate. In tipical 3 mode cycles we are used to you are always only max. 2 press away from desired mode. This is simple and we are already used to. Long press means Off. And you still have plenty room to define how to enter strobe mode (two short presses for example - good for commuters and MTB while on the road).

*About mount*. Don't forget a lot of people already use rubber band mount on the helmet and won't be willing to change it just for this light cause they can't use old ones any more. So keep in mind that rubber band should be an option too. At least to have possibility to mount it instead of Gopro style. And for commuters, they need quick release mount. Either Alu clamp or rubber band works for that. OK tripple light is more for bar usage than for helmet. Nevertheless just think of backward compatibility.

The rest we already spoked a lot in the past and we more or less agree. Make it good heatsinked, 20AWG cable and modular (lenses, led PCBS, mounts, programable driver) and you are good. Remote is good add on for mtb, of course, but it will raise the cost pretty much I think.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I think a wired remote ought to be cheap enough to add (probably only a $1 to $2 of parts / fabrication for the manufacturer). Probably is best as ledoman says to only have "normal" forward mode changes and not try to add "long press to go backwards" as it will become more complicated with having strobe & programming modes as presses as well. Would be great to have though and might make the light standout from most others. Double-click to enter strobe should work. Long press to off, but continue holding for about 8 seconds to enter programming mode for programming level you last selected? 

-Garry


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

By the way, I see where there are more and more custom lights for Group Buys (at Banggood) where they are using drivers flashed with custom firmware created by BLF users (& perhaps other forums too). Example here & here & here.

I'm just starting to flash my own drivers (using/modifying output levels of freely available firmware designed by others), but I am nowhere near capable of coding a custom firmware. We could perhaps get one of the BLF users to assist us with the firmware, or we could see if GB can get it right. (One nice thing about a BLF firmware would be that it would be based on an mcu that some of use could reprogram in the future should we decide to change it.)

-Garry


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I received word overnight from GearBest that builder said he will be able to do everything on the list and still keep it budget.

Now for me to work with them to ensure that the quality is there. We should have a sample next month that will go out to at least two people besides myself for review and testing.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll signup to be a tester. I can't commit to do a lot (like a full-blown review), but I can do measurements and post some pics. Should be able to include beamshots. I can take lumen measurements in my DIY sphere, though I can't guarantee my numbers. 

-Garry


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

garrybunk said:


> I'll signup to be a tester. I can't commit to do a lot (like a full-blown review), but I can do measurements and post some pics. Should be able to include beamshots. I can take lumen measurements in my DIY sphere, though I can't guarantee my numbers.
> 
> -Garry


Thank Garry. Quality checks, testing and taking this thing apart is what's needed. Someone like yourself who, knows lights, drivers, optics and the like.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I'd like to see mole on the list and Garybunk as testers. Looks like this is coming together nicely!


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Dirt Road said:


> I'd like to see mole on the list and Garybunk as testers. Looks like this is coming together nicely!


Ya the senior guys will make the best testers, they have seen enough lights to know quality from a cheaply made light.

Let me know who's interested. Some of us have been at this project for a while.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

GJHS said:


> I received word overnight from GearBest that builder said he will be able to do everything on the list and still keep it budget.
> 
> Now for me to work with them to ensure that the quality is there. We should have a sample next month that will go out to at least two people besides myself for review and testing.


Nice to hear that this is really going to happen. I hope to see a photo of the actual proto-type as soon as it is available. Great work GJ, :thumbsup:


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

That's great news GJHS!

It should probably be a wired remote as the wireless stuff will add too much cost. 

I would like to nominate Cat-man-do and and tigris as testers also, in addition to Garry, if they want to do it.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm game. Give me a purpose to tweak with a light beyond just doing it for my own entertainment. ;P

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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

If it's a double, I'm game to both test and buy one. 

If you're going triple, it's more than I need and the Wiz XP2 is probably looking like my next light.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

If it's a quad, u shud verify it off-road bent. A lot of folks r here, why not try it and report? You have something to add I'm sure!


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

Oh, I'll be glad to try anythingb and report back. Just unlikely to buy a triple or quad at this time.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

+ + +


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

a few questions being asked by GearBest:

Will a triple be a light that appeals to most or just a few people? (Important so please comment) GB boss asking why a double?

How Bright?

Optic size that is easily found/swapped?

Driver functions and UI


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Triple of course, there's a ton of doubles already.

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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Man, we do not need any more doubles. First everyone bought the solarstorm x2, then they bought the yindings (and their bad clones) and then a few bought the Nitefighter BT21. Plus there was the very bad d99, and Kaidoman had their own double or two. 

We definitely need the triple, that put outs over 2000 real lumens. It's easier to drive three 3 leds to that brightness than a double. Plus it's a little bit bigger and therefore has more room for heat sinking. The heat sinking is the part that all the cheap triples leave out. They all end up cooking themselves to death because they aren't designed correctly.

I can't speak about the optics. Someone should be able to tell how tall they are are. I think they are all about 19 mm tall. Don't quote me on that. 

As ledoman posted the UI should be something like
low-medium-high and the next click goes back to low (not OFF). Hold the button for a few seconds to turn the light off (or use a separate switch). A blink mode would be hidden even further. 

It would be nice if the levels (low medium high) would be programmable. Even nicer would be to have multiple mode groups (one with three modes and another with two modes (race) for example) or being able to set the number of levels in the rotation (2,3, or 4).


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

If we are talking about UI with different groups (2 mode, 3 mode) and programable levels then I would suggest 3 and 4 mode groups rather than 2 and 3. 

The reason is simple. You can cover more wishies with 3 and 4 mode. Those who wants only two modes they just program 4 modes as Low, Hi, Low, Hi and they essentialy have 2 modes only. Long press in any mode should turn the light off. The only difference would be you have to program all 4 modes. But this you do very seldom or only at beginning. With this you have also covered the people who wants more modes.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

me, im good with 2 main modes and a hidden low. But thats me. I only use 2 modes while riding, the low mode for when I stop for whatever reason. I have like a quick mode cycle back and forth based on trail section, but thats me. Some may like the longer list of options, but cycling through more modes for me would just get annoying lol. AKA Nightfighter lights. Great except dealing with 4 modes.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

But as I said if you program 4 modes in the sequence Low, Hi, Low, Hi you always have only two modes to operate. You will never know there are 4 modes behind (except when program to change levels). That way you get more versalite driver appealing to more people. Othewise I agree 2 or 3 modes are sufficient for MTB use. 

Since GB wants to sell lights also to other audience, you know, more people, more wishies. This is what I wanted to point out. Of course we need programable levels in order to do that.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

i vote triple 2200lm. Nw of course. A simple ui seems like less chance of messing up mfg?
Low med hi turbo is not good. Low med high is better. Maybe a few strobe modes hidden to boost sales with the roadies? I'm with Garybunk on wired remote too. Should be a cheap feature to add on.


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## goatman (Nov 14, 2004)

*Optics*

Design the optics and silicone seal in a way that the user can swap optics so that the basic triple can serve both as a bar and a helmet light.
As an example there is a choice of various collimators/lenses available on LEDDNA (and elsewhere), would be great if these could be fitted without modifications.
Alternatively Gearbest could offer various optic options stock on their website if that proves to be economical.
I'm also happy with low, medium and high levels without off in the programmeable sequence (long press = off).


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Here's a link to the LEDDNA 10º optic we all like. According to LEDDNA it's 21mm wide x 12.5mm tall but that seems like it's with the white holder (which they could keep in use, it's just other lights we take the white holders off).

I like Ledoman's idea of 2 mode groups, 4 modes & 3 modes (with the 4 mode having ability to setup ti mimmick a 2 mode - something I think is more useable since I hardly ever use low). If they won't do mode groups, than I'm not sure whether it should be a 3 mode or a 4 mode - I'm leaning toward 4.

I still think in stock form the center LED should have a 10º optic for "throw" and the outer two have maybe the 25º optics to favor flood (maybe even a little wider, but definitely not 60º as that's way too wide). Users can modify optics after receiving the light if they wish, but at least in stock form it's setup for flood and throw (kinda universal as a selling point).

Wired remote, simple to plug/unplug and not mandatory to use. 2A per LED may be tough (6A driver), but we should try for it. 2000 lumens max OTF is probably about the upper reach of what we can expect (due to the need for such a high current driver).

Anyone interested in trying to push for an XHP50 based light (see output graphs here)? It would be more unique, but it is a 6V emitter so runtime would be less and it's probably better doing a double than a triple in XHP50. The XHP50 uses the same optics as the XM-L, but because it has 4 dies it's beam is not as uniform and smooth. Just a thought, but I think it's better suited for another day another custom light.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I checked the thread on blf. The requests there were kind of dumb tbh. Half of them I question if they even know how to ride a bicycle, much less actually do it.

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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Which thread? Oh, nevermind, I see the custom thread over there now; I didn't even post in the BLF thread, though it's kind of redundant if I'm posting here where there is more relevant discussion. 

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Xhp50 on xm-l2 20mm optics looks like poop. Needs at least 26mm imo

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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

tigris99 said:


> Xhp50 on xm-l2 20mm optics looks like poop. Needs at least 26mm imo


I've not actually used XHP50's or XHP70's myself, though I have plans to revise my D.I.Y. lawnmower headlights to XHP50's (due to working with XM-L2 optics). I was going to test different optics, including 26mm ones, but don't count on that anytime soon (this mod has been ongoing for over 4 years - just don't get much time to mess with it).

With a dual emitter XHP50 setup we could probably get over 3,000 lumens driven at 2.0A each, or 4,500 lumens at 3.0A each. Not sure how realistic it is driving those emitters that hard for any length of time in a small light body, but I do hear they run cooler than MT-G2 emitters.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

xhp50 is the equivalent of 4 xp-g2. So figure the heat based off that. Going to be more than 2 XM-L2 driven at the same current.

XHP50 Light would be cool but people will be expecting an helmet light as most dont have a clue what the differences are or whats needed for a light with throw. And going into territory the places this will be dealing with have NO CLUE about. They cant do anything original, only copy existing.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

ledoman said:


> The reason is simple. You can cover more wishies with 3 and 4 mode. *Those who wants only two modes they just program 4 modes as Low, Hi, Low, Hi and they essentialy have 2 modes only*. Long press in any mode should turn the light off. The only difference would be you have to program all 4 modes. But this you do very seldom or only at beginning. With this you have also covered the people who wants more modes.


That's a great idea, I would have never thought of that.

I could see someone wanting a fourth mode (extra high or turbo) for a light that puts out over 2000 lumens. Most of the time would be spent in mode 2 (medium) and mode 3 (high) and then kick it into mode 4 for the really fast sections.

With four modes it's almost better to have two buttons, one to go down in level and one to go up. I have that cheap light with 4 xpg and that's how it's set up. You can't click from the highest mode (4) to the lowest mode by clicking the up button, you have to click the down button three times.

One thing with having four modes is that I was constantly forgetting which mode I was in. So if this same light had only one button and you had to click through mode 4 to get back to 1, then I would be constantly clicking myself to death trying to get the mode that I wanted. I could see that being a very frustrating experience.

But with a three mode light I don't lose my place as much and one button is fine.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I say we push for two buttons - mode level up and mode level down. This could also help with programming & strobe modes. Press & hold one button enters hidden strobe, single click from strobe goes to a hidden "low" mode (essentially entering a second mode group); press & hold other button for programming mode.

-Garry


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

:thumbsup:



garrybunk said:


> I say we push for two buttons - mode level up and mode level down. This could also help with programming & strobe modes. Press & hold one button enters hidden strobe, single click from strobe goes to a hidden "low" mode (essentially entering a second mode group); press & hold other button for programming mode.
> 
> -Garry


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Two button is good as long as it's on the top. Maybe a 2 button remote? I hate to see the "budget" shot to heck! There's too many well priced good lights without making another. I say simple and reliable. But with a great beam pattern like an xs gloworm.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

If 2 button is prohibitive, 1 button can achieve the same thing - quick click for up, longer press for down. TaskLED and MobyDrv do this.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Basically I should stfu and see where this triple, top button, 2200 otf goes. There's a lot of smart folks here and Tig mole GB ledoman cat man do etc etc and the fearless leader kno what can be accomplished with the new light! I'm pumped cause I need another light like I need another bike.... And I want several!


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I would rather have the button/buttons on the back of the light and heat sink fins on the top of the light where they are the most effective.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Top button truely won't hurt anything in this case design. Surface area is surface area due to the thermal conductivity of aluminum the small percentage lost for a top button on the top of the light isnt going to negatively effect performance. Still the wall behind the emitter transfering heat to the outer case and then spread around from there.

The only way to improve that is the bt21 design. Fins directly behind the emitter wall. Top button or back button, performance will remain basically the same. At VERY Worst We'd see is a few seconds less before thermal step down in extreme temps and low speed airflow. Basically Mole at walking speed on one of his 100deg nights leaving the light on high. The rest of us, never notice it.

No airflow the performance difference would literally be only detected on test equipment.

And I have production proof of this sitting in front of me running ATM 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I want big fins on the top, half an inch tall. All the way from the front of the light to the back. Fu$% it. It's much easier to manufacture that without sticking the button on top also, and wind can easily flow throw the heat fins. I don't want another light that supposed to be cheap but ends up being over $100 for the lighthead because we make it too complicated. 

I want a $35-$50 lighthead that won't cook itself to death in three months. 

The solarstorm was the ideal cheap build expect that there was no solid wall behind the emitter. Plus the driver wasn't in direct contact with the same board the leds were mounted on. It was mounted on the rear wall. I think that separation is critical in not roasting the driver. It's also been in production for two years. 

The BT21, the supposedly better light, is no longer in production. It was either too expensive to produce, or had a high failure rate. If they were making a huge profit then they wouldn't have stopped production. 

I want something that's cheap, but I want something that they guy can produce easily and make a ton of profit from. Something that's sustainable. That way we can a large influence on the design and the light will still be made six months from now.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Just FYI, a cheap light head has a good chance of cooking itself. It's not a heat problem with the head. Though it doesn't help, it's the electronics used. Low grade, can't take the heat and shocks of bouncing around on a bike.

As for a light with huge fins, count me out of that, no way.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I was exaggerating a little bit.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok lol. Me I don't even care about a button on the light head if I have a remote. I modded my Chinese light to have remotes cause not having them in annoying.

For me, I have no problems paying for good lights now or just make my own (when I have time). Loving Ituo right now cause only upgrade I'd like to see is a wireless remote system that works like Gemini lights remotes. Perfect syncing so I can control both lights at the same time.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

varider said:


> With four modes it's almost better to have two buttons, one to go down in level and one to go up. I have that cheap light with 4 xpg and that's how it's set up. You can't click from the highest mode (4) to the lowest mode by clicking the up button, you have to click the down button three times.
> 
> One thing with having four modes is that I was constantly forgetting which mode I was in. So if this same light had only one button and you had to click through mode 4 to get back to 1, then I would be constantly clicking myself to death trying to get the mode that I wanted. I could see that being a very frustrating experience.
> 
> But with a three mode light I don't lose my place as much and one button is fine.


What Ledoman said makes a lot of sense and what you are saying makes a lot of sense and yes at times we forget what mode we are in. When I was using the BT40S ( 4-modes/up/down switch ) I regularly forgot what mode I was in. When you forget with a 4-mode up/down switch and don't have a remote it can be frustrating. While the same is true with a 3-mode UI ultilizing a circular UI, having one less mode to click through is less annoying than figuring out to switch up or down if you don't know which mode you are in.

I do like Ledoman's idea though about having a 4-mode set-up as two modes. I never thought of that before. Therefore perhaps we need to consider the possibility that we might be able to get both 4 and 3 modes in one package. If the lamp is going to be programmable I can't see why there can't be an option on the UI that includes a menu option to be able to switch from 3 ( circular ) to 4 ( up/down ) mode and then just go with a two button remote. In 3 ( circular ) mode the extra button would just be the same as the other.

Now as to forgetting what mode you are in; at times this is frustrating as I said before. This problem could be virtually eliminated though if it were possible to include a series of micro leds ( colors? ) on the remote ( or the lamp head ). I would prefer them being on the remote though because sometimes the lamp head is not visible to the rider depending on how it is mounted. Real important that they not be too bright or too big. I don't want something looking like a Magicshine remote. Anyway three micro leds would do the trick. No led for low, yellow for #2, blue for #3, red for #4. For 3 mode menu you would just use yellow and blue. If you're not color blind this could work.

( edit: rethink; Ledo's idea of 4 mode programmed as 2 is really best if the UI is circular ( L-H-L-H-L-H..etc ). If the UI was up/down you might forget when you are at the 1st or last mode. ) I vote circular if it comes down to a choice. ) Now if there are micro-led indicators ...Meh...I could handle up/down as the UI.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Commenting on UI, the only one I dislike is the gloworm x2/xs. I am used to it as I'm what my lbs calls an adopter... bt40 ok bt21 better Ituo wiz20 best.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

If we had a UI with two mode groups (3 mode and 4 mode) and a circular mode rotation with one button, I would probably just stick with with the 3-mode group to avoid confusing myself. But I'm fine with either a two button for level change or just one.

I do like the idea of an indicator. I do, however, associate the battery level with different colors leds. We could also use those small rear facing leds like the solarstorm X2 has to indicate what level you are in. In addition there would be an indicator for the battery level.

I have a Magishine light with the remote. I would also like something smaller than that also. It also has the circuitry to indicate the battery level. This is too complicated in my opinion. I want the remote to be as dumb as possible. This makes it cheap to replace and opens up the possibility of being able to make your own. 

The thing with the UI is that's just a program running on a microchip. It's easily programmable with the right tools. It would be nice if we could do it ourselves. Then we could just share the programs here and you could install whatever you wanted. The guys on BLF seems to have this figured out, I briefly looked through the thread where they were doing this. 

The one thing we really need to avoid is the double click to enter programming. That's just ridiculous. Even if we have just one button to change levels, it might be helpful to have second micro sized button on the light head to assist with the programming and mode group selection. You could also use it to turn the light on and off and perhaps to enter a flashing mode (or flashing mode group) or a moon-mode.

I just wonder how much of this the builder can actually accomplish, I hope we aren't reaching too high. We probably need one or two iterations with prototypes before we get all this right.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

varider said:


> If we had a UI with two mode groups (3 mode and 4 mode) and a circular mode rotation with one button, I would probably just stick with with the 3-mode group to avoid confusing myself. But I'm fine with either a two button for level change or just one.
> 
> I do like the idea of an indicator. I do, however, associate the battery level with different colors leds. We could also use those small rear facing leds like the solarstorm X2 has to indicate what level you are in. In addition there would be an indicator for the battery level.....
> 
> ...


I've thought over the options again and after thinking this through a bit more I've come to the conclusion that a circular ( one button ) remote is likely the better way to go. My reasoning behind this is because I feel that if there are two buttons ( very close together ), there is going to be a very good chance that when you start trying to change modes ( when the bike is moving ) you might indeed accidentally hit the wrong button. It's hard enough to remember where the remote is mounted when you start stretching your thumb out with just one button. At times I'm lucky if I hit it once ( GW remote ) when going over rough terrain. Thankfully I currently don't have to get lucky with two buttons right next to each other. While the Gemini remote does have two buttons, only one button changes modes. Since I only have to really use just one I can position the remote so I don't hit the other button by accident ( which if I did wouldn't change modes anyway ).

The only way I see a two button ( up/down ) remote is going to work is if the two buttons themselves have mini led indicators built in so you can see the buttons. Forget what I said about indicators for the modes, seeing the buttons themselves would take priority. A four up/down I could get used to but only if the remote is lit with the mini leds I mentioned before. A single button 3 or 4-circular doesn't need to be lit.

The mini leds I'm talking about are the really small ones. Where I work we use these wireless hand held devices that have some really small buttons on it. Button size is about 3mm. Some of those buttons have a really small led inside to indicate function mode. That's the size I'm talking about. I don't want something that is too bright. Perhaps something that is "back-lit" would be another option for up/down. Anyway, up/down sounds nice but if you can't see the remote chances are you will hit the wrong button from time to time.

Yep, Gloworm screwed up with the "double-click-enter-program mode" problem. On almost every ride I will enter program mode on my X2 at least once and once is enough to piss you off since you need to stop to fix it. It's kinda like hitting the wrong button on your shifter only in this case "it's not your fault". If we go 4-mode ( two buttons ) once again the peeps will be fussing when they start hitting the wrong button.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

Bike computers etc have a small reset button you push with a paperclip. Maybe something like that to program?
Mobydrv needed something like 7 presses to enter program mode.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I do find double click for programming works fine EXCEPT IN GLOWORM LIGHTS. The problem is that the timing of the clicks is too far apart in the firmware. Which is what makes it a nightmare as the spacing is that of an attempt to rapidly cycle modes.

Try doing that with Ituo lights,. Double click for programming but good luck activating it. It's a VERY RAPID double click needed to do it. I have enough trouble trying to hit the button that fast while intentionally trying to do it. Forget even trying to do it while its on my helmet or bars. On the bike it's practically impossible to hit the button that fast while riding unless your The Flash lol. 

It's not the double click to programming mode that's the problem, but the only common reference is Gloworm, who seriously screwed it up. That function works just as good as anything else if the guy programming the firmware has a clue about programming portable lights. 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> I do find double click for programming works fine EXCEPT IN GLOWORM LIGHTS. The problem is that the timing of the clicks is too far apart in the firmware. Which is what makes it a nightmare as the spacing is that of an attempt to rapidly cycle modes.
> 
> Try doing that with Ituo lights,. Double click for programming but good luck activating it. It's a VERY RAPID double click needed to do it. I have enough trouble trying to hit the button that fast while intentionally trying to do it. Forget even trying to do it while its on my helmet or bars. On the bike it's practically impossible to hit the button that fast while riding unless your The Flash lol.
> 
> ...


Gloworm should switch to a "rapid 5" for programming. Should only require a minor revision of the firmware. Very unlikely that I would do 5 rapid button presses while riding. If ITUO has "two rapid" for programming but is hard to activate I would still think that there is the possibility of activating the programming mode by accident. Kinda depends on the person and how fast their fingers are. I've seen people with some really fast *_digital reflexes._ :yesnod: ( *A guy I work with can type out a paragraph before I can type out a sentence. Simply amazing to watch ). Glad to hear though that you aren't having any problems with the ITUO lamps.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

It's a deliberate act to enter prog on Ituo. Gloworm is an every ride occurrence. I'd assume skip the prog and get sensibly spaced modes with hidden flash/strobe for on road use. We all have dream builds. Gearbest needs to sell these as varider said. Without the huge fins...


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Dirt Road said:


> It's a deliberate act to enter prog on Ituo. Gloworm is an every ride occurrence.


Gloworm just need to lock out programming 60s after turn on. Otherwise its a good system. They could add more special modes and the low would be better at 1% rather than 10%. 
Most of all... *Mode steps need to be logarithmic.*


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Ofroad'bent said:


> Bike computers etc have a small reset button you push with a paperclip. Maybe something like that to program?
> Mobydrv needed something like 7 presses to enter program mode.


I was thinking of something more substantial but still small. I always think that I'm going to break those reset buttons.

Cat, can you easily take a picture of the types of button you are talking about?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Most lights have a reset command built into the firmware. Usually a long press from off or a series of clicks from off for a master reset.

As for this remote thing, I'm trying to figure out the demand for all this fancy stuff. Dual buttons for up and down is good, but illuminated and all that??? If the buttons are bigger it's a quick matter of feel. Muscle memory will take over for button location before the first ride is over. Doesn't matter the style of remote button I use, put it in the same place every time and that's all I need.

I guess though I'm on the younger half of this group and don't like fancy . Just gotta work, be able to feel it through my soft shell gloves and I'm good.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

As much as I did not take to the mj906 I briefly had, the wireless remote was quite excellent and never acted up for the week I had the light. I thought it was up/down but the remote controlled the tail light with the small button....


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

Backlit buttons are really, really bad for a bar light. Even a really small amount of light in the wrong direction (up in your face) will damage the dark vision. It is like putting the light on MID even if it is on HIGH. It is easy to test. Just hold the hand over any backlit button or similar and you will notice the difference directly.
So, backlit buttons are bad and probably more expensive. Same goes for battery indication leds. They can go on the side or bottom of the light.
This is also the reason why a small "cap" is good. Specially when going steep uphill some lights tends to spill light up in your face.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

By "cap" I guess you mean a "hood" like the HD-016 uses. Good idea; add that to the specs listing.

I agree with tig on the remote. I don't want lights on the remote. A well designed remote should be easy enough to operate. 

-Garry


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Forgive the lack of posts on my side, it's been busy here with a lot of behind the scenes stuff. I have seen and been talking about the design to get it just right, so this is going to happen. 

Thanks for all the feedback, UI is next. I'm trying to introduce a few cool ideas while still keeping it simple and functional. Gearbest is working to keep it quality and functional, adding a few very nice touches to show that they are listening. As you know the challenge comes in making it for all types of riders.

Keep the input coming. I have still have a question about the optics and ensuring that we use an easy to find optic size. GB has ensured they will be easily swapped and I am making sure they can be swapped more than once.

Soon it will be time to add a tester to the conversation and then when the prototypes are built send the third to another tester. Of course confidentiality is important.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Appel said:


> *Backlit buttons are really, really bad for a bar light. Even a really small amount of light in the wrong direction (up in your face) will damage the dark vision.* It is like putting the light on MID even if it is on HIGH. It is easy to test. Just hold the hand over any backlit button or similar and you will notice the difference directly.
> So, backlit buttons are bad and probably more expensive. Same goes for battery indication leds. They can go on the side or bottom of the light.
> This is also the reason why a small "cap" is good. Specially when going steep uphill some lights tends to spill light up in your face.


About the back-lit buttons, yes I agree with you. _Done wrong_ an excess about of light coming off the bars into your face is a big negative. Almost every lamp I own ( except for the Gloworm's ) have battery indicators that are too damn bright. This is true even for the usual small indicators used on the Solarstorms. Whenever I use one of those lamps I almost always use some black electrical tape to cover the indicators. I drive vehicles at work that I have to cover the center dashboard video/display panel because the damn things can't be dimmed ( as far as I know ). I can dim the basic dashboard but not that damn panel.

Of course the idea I had for remote indicators was that, "It be done right". Just a minute amount of light. My home computer screen has a very small green indicator, maybe just 1mm wide. It's yellow when in sleep mode and green when on. It's so small/dim you almost forget it's there.

Anyway, if it couldn't be done right then it would be best "not to have them". Believe me, if it were done right, it would make having an up/down remote much more usable. Personally though, I'm good with just the single button with circular UI.


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## Wombat (Jan 25, 2004)

znomit said:


> Gloworm just need to lock out programming 60s after turn on. Otherwise its a good system. They could add more special modes and the low would be better at 1% rather than 10%.
> Most of all... *Mode steps need to be logarithmic.*


I agree with all that you wrote. It's an excellent idea to lock out the programming mode a minute after turning on.

Tim


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Not to rain on anyone's parade but:

Reality check here ppl. The more options that try to get crammed into this light, the far more expensive it's going to become. WE'RE TALKING BASICALLY A CHEAP CHINESE LIGHT CUSTOM MADE. So gotta sacrifice some things if you want it cheap or to last very long.

Everyone wants all this stuff on a $50 or less light head. At that point it'll be so cheaply made it won't survive a season. This is why quality light heads get far more expensive. The costs of making something reliable with the desired features.

A lot of cool ideas for stuff Wed like to see, but gotta come back to reality if you want it cheap.

A 3 emitter Yinding (with a bit more surface area to the head, aka deeper fin machining), programmable driver (which already exists for a dual emitter, the KD2) AND A basic wireless remote with a button big enough to feel through gloves. That can be done at the price point we want. Even the firmware program modifications are difficult cause most these cheap light companies don't have an actual decent engineer. So adding/changing the firmware is going to add to costs.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Are we going to see rubber band mounting? Not a deal breaker specially with a wireless remote! But I'd like a good mounting system.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Dirt Road said:


> Are we going to see rubber band mounting? Not a deal breaker specially with a wireless remote! But I'd like a good mounting system.


We asked for a gopro adapter option (or a cam-style mount) as well as the regular rubber band mount.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok Guys, here's an update. The design is almost finalized and it will be a small triple with a good focus on heat dissipation. Right now we are working on the case design primarily and a case sample will be sent out to me and one other tester soon (Garry Bunk, Varider, Tigris, OffRoadbent?) Hit me up on PM and I will let GB choose. They are, of course, worried about someone leaking their ideas to other companies.

We have been working hard to keep the quality high while keeping the price around $50, so wireless remotes are out, though the rest of our list is happening so far. Oh and it will definitely have a GoPro adapter. We are on a one button design with a lighted ring around it though that could change if they adopt my trick idea to make it work for all genres of riding. As i said at this point basic design, how it will look has been battling with making sure its super functional. So far they are adopting change and listening while still keeping it good to look at. There will be no hidden surprises since they are allowing us to see the samples before final build.

UI, Driver and Optics are next. What I need from you now, is what optics would you like to see. Be specific, including links so I can forward them to GB. I was thinking the center optic be spot with flood optics on the sides. Share your ideas, please.

Sorry I haven't been on here a lot, except to read, I've been talking with GearBest almost daily to ensure all is as it should be. Nefertari is really working hard to make this perfect even though this isn't her department anymore A big thanks to her for pushing to get this built. GearBest set up a few deals and coupons for the forum while we wait, including the Yinding Sale and a sweet deal on the Garmin Edge 520 GPS bike computer. Suggestions welcome


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Sounds great! 

What do you want to know about the UI? Or is it more about just picking the final design? How hard is it for them to make it programmable, the user being able to program the light levels? Is that a huge increase in cost? That's the most requested feature. 

I haven't played around with the optics on my lights too much, put I see the others mentioning the ones from leddna. 

As far as what should come with the light one spot and two wide would be fine with me. Of course they come in degrees such as 5 degree, 10 degree, etc. So one 5 degree and two 10's. I'm not sure though. 

As far as the driver goes we want something that does 2-2.5 amps per led. Right? We want a driver that stays stable as the light gets hot. No weird things like the turbo lag on the BT21.


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

I like the KD driver functions. A driver like that but with less flickerering on low currents and better battery management would be perfect!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

What are you referring to for battery management? Really no such thing with a driver besides a simple indicator telling you when battery is getting low.

The flickering is PWM, and ya KD drivers suck for that. Didnt even think about that one. 

Not totally obsurb, low frequency pwm.

Varider, the narrowest beam pattern you can get in smaller optics like we're used to is 10deg. Something like 1 10 and 2 20deg optics I guess would be ok. As long as I can fit my own optics to sort out my personal beam pattern for a triple.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

tigris99 said:


> What are you referring to for battery management?  Really no such thing with a driver besides a simple indicator telling you when battery is getting low.


Sorry if I use the wrong terms (my english is not the best). What I meant was that I experienced the batteries to last shorter time after I switched the driver in my Yinding to the KD driver (and I did not notice a remarkabel increase of light output). But I have no test data that supports this, it is just my subjective feeling.

But I do like the KD UI and I don't like the low frequency pwm.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

Appel said:


> I like the KD driver functions. A driver like that but with less flickerering on low currents and better battery management would be perfect!


Agreed! The pwm is most noticable on the lower settigns. I use the light for trail running and skiing as well as biking, so I use it at various power settings more than most.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

tigris99 said:


> Varider, the narrowest beam pattern you can get in smaller optics like we're used to is 10deg. Something like 1 10 and 2 20deg optics I guess would be ok. As long as I can fit my own optics to sort out my personal beam pattern for a triple.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I think he is asking what are favorite brand of optics is. Are the leddna the best ones or is it carlco? The manufacturer needs the size of the optics so that he can get the fit right.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Go with the leddna optics that we've been recommending (ones with white holders) - here is a link to the 10degree one. These are the easiest to find to purchase for us to replace ourselves. As far as recommended combinations of optics I'm not sure. Wish I had a triple optic light (& time) to run some tests and take some beamshots. Wonder what would happen if we put two 10º's on the outside with a floodier (25º?) on the inside? I know we're kind of shooting for a universal combination light (i.e. suitable for bar or helmet), but I think we should favor throw. Again though, I have nothing to experiment with right now to see how this would turn out.

-Garry


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

varider said:


> ....Are the leddna the best ones or is it carlco?


Everything I've built with Carclo optics kind of sucked. Even their tightest spec still ends up a wide flood. LEDDNA are really good as far as optics go.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, so no carclo optics then. 

On the leddna optics do you need the holder, or can you use the optics without it? Is there a slight difference in height?

Is there anyone making a 5 degree optic that is actually narrower than the 10 degree leddna? I remember reading that you need a tall reflector to get that narrow, or perhaps an aspheric lens setup.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

OPTICS: The current Leddna white sleeved optics work very well for very little cost so they get my vote. Using them also would provide many optic options allowing users to customize the beam pattern to best suit a wide variety of usage needs. 10° spots would be a good place to start but I suggest sending some wider options to the testers with the lights to better show the range of beam patterns the light can provide. It would be nice to get some extra optics with the light but at the very least Gearbest needs to have optional optics in stock to be purchased with the light.

UI: Mode button on the top please. Every light I've owned that was configured this way was a more pleasant/easier to use experience. Easier to access bar or helmet and more accurate mode changes too. Ease of use trumps any thermal advantage a back mounted button may have since it's easy to put a Vancbiker heat-sink mount on but an ackward to use mode button your stuck with. A wired remote would make the button position less critical though. If affordable a programmable mode driver would also be a big plus.
Mole


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Great to see this light progressing! I recently changed optics in one of my lights and it's pretty awesome stuff to get the beam pattern dialed in to my preferences. I'd say 2 spot 1 flood in the middle. I'm good with a simple UI. Wired remote??


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Most all the lights I've seen using the LEDDNA optics do not use the white holders. Using the holders should help more light cone out through the optic though. 

-Garry


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## goatman (Nov 14, 2004)

*LEDDNA lenses*

Here is a link for 15,45 and 60 degree LEDDNA lenses, without the white cupped holders:

http://http://www.leddna.com/15-45-60-degrees-lens-for-cree-xml-xm-l-led/


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

The guys meant those:

10 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA
25 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA
60 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA

10 and 25 degrees are most usable. To get more narrow beam we might use XP-L HI leds. With that led and 10 degree optics (measured with XM-L) you should get about 7 degrees.

So with different leds and those LED-DNA optics anyone should get his perfect combination.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

25 deg isnt much different than the 10 deg, the 25 deg optic seems to have a bit more spill but that's about it. I use the 45 and 60 mote myself. I hate a hot spot on my bar light. Like a smooth, even beam. Save the hot spot for the helmet 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## goatman (Nov 14, 2004)

*Ledoman's links*

Thanks ledoman! :thumbsup:
Combinations of those 3 cupped collimator lenses as per your links would be ideal!
As long as the faceplate and silicone o-ring seal are easily removable and the fixing hardware (bolts must be long enough) have decent matching threaded bolt holes machined into the body.
That way the user can adapt the lenses to suit bar or head use, and of course personal preference!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

So far combination of 10 and 25 degrees with XM-L leds in a twin light suited me well for bar usage (mostly tested in MJ-880 clone), but that's me. 

In a tripple light finding best combination should be even easier as you have more choices. All the combination of 10,10,10 to 25,25,25 if we talking about only two. For more demanding users you can include some combination with XP-L HI as an DIY option. Since those lenses are very cheap anyone can easily order some spares and find out their own best beam.


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## shogan (Jun 14, 2016)

GJHS said:


> ...
> 
> Sorry I haven't been on here a lot, except to read, I've been talking with GearBest almost daily to ensure all is as it should be. Nefertari is really working hard to make this perfect even though this isn't her department anymore A big thanks to her for pushing to get this built. GearBest set up a few deals and coupons for the forum while we wait, including the Yinding Sale and a sweet deal on the Garmin Edge 520 GPS bike computer. Suggestions welcome


What are these deals you mentioned?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

shogan said:


> What are these deals you mentioned?


The latest two from Gearbest.com are for the Garmin Edge bike computers. I've been using the edge 520 and I'm really liking the features. Haven't taken it out in the woods yet, so far though this computer is sweet. I've even used it in my car! Wrong thread, so I'll post more about it another day in the proper forum section.

The coupon ("garmin520") makes the Edge 520 - $264.99
and the coupon ("garmin1000") which make the Edge 1000 - $479.99


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

OK, update from GB: A working sample should be ready by the end of June and then sent to us for testing.

I have confirmed what it has and minus the remote, the list+ is there.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Good news, thx for update! Any specs thrown around yet?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Dirt Road said:


> Good news, thx for update! Any specs thrown around yet?


XPL LEDs, high power, driven hard and crazy bright!

Oh and let's not forget: programmable :thumbsup:


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

It will be very interesting to see what comes out of this initiative.

Just a stupid question. Doesn't the choice of leds have impact on what optics that could be used??


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Glad to hear!

-Garry


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Looking forward to this. Hopefully it stays relatively cheap!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Are the LEDs neutral white? What's the deal with the remote? Not sure I understood what the last comment about that meant. Will it have a remote (?) Wireless or wired?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

There won't be a remote on the initial release of version 1 at this moment. In future revisions, if the light does well, they will add a remote. Main focus is a quality light around $50usd. 

I just asked about Neutral LEDs and the answer was undecided. Which is more desirable?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Not worth my time if it's not neutral as will cost another $15 in emitters to make the light usable. Dont want to be a pain but I cant ride with cool white unless the humidity/particulates in the air is insanely low otherwise I get a massive headache.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Cool white is a deal breaker. Won't buy. Neutral all the way. Offer both?


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Neutral white was one the most requested features of the new light.

I also won't be buying a cool white version.


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## goatman (Nov 14, 2004)

I won't bother buying a cool white version either.
Neutral White please!


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## Moguo (Apr 3, 2012)

neutral white


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## nefertari (Apr 8, 2015)

*Its me*



Dirt Road said:


> Cool white is a deal breaker. Won't buy. Neutral all the way. Offer both?


Both. :ihih::ihih:


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Post up a teaser pict!


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Successful BT21 and Yinding were both NW, I think the choice is obvious


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

As i expected and Nefertari also figured out: Neutral for the win. 3C I know. I just wanted to give you guys the choice.

I agree 100%, after riding with neutral lights, I'm not sure I can go back. They are so much easier on the eyes over a long ride.


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

And when they start selling this, we definitely need a lighthead only option (without batteries and charger)


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

This will be a light head only. A good quality battery pack is easy to find.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Nice! Any additional info on this beast?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

We just finalized the design! Now one last question:

How deep should the fins be? GB thinks 3mm, I think deeper

What do you think?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

You should give us some more data about design. Not knowing anything about it (besides it has 3 leds), the fins are just the guessing. At least fins thicknes, orientation, length, number, etc....


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Way too much info not being given.

Like ledoman said, his list plus the fact of the drive current.

You cant push 2A per emitter through 3 emitters in something that's basically a 3 emitter Yinding. Talk about thermal problems from hell, even with xp-l emitters.

You said driven hard which means pushing at least 2.5A per emitter.

And depth means little compared to thickness, spacing, and orientation of the fins.

Based on how your talking I'm going to guess that the fins are cut just like that of a yinding or most other lights. Perpendicular to the air flow. In that case anything more than 3mm is totally pointless, moving air will never reach it.

Just way to many variables to answer your question.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

The fins run front to back and cover most of the light with no sharp edges. I am trying to get the info on the driver. What i know is they plan to run the LEDs to their fullest and cooling is a priority. 

Sorry if there isn't enough information, I am sharing what I have. We have been focusing on design and features. What hasn't been discussed is driver information. 

What I can say is a prototype is coming in the next two weeks and I'm trying to get them to release the photo of the design.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Your talking a total of 9A push from that driver, don't even try it. The requirements of a head to push what would be 3600 lumens roughly prior to losses makes the head size required too large with the fact their using a more basic and old school head design and trying to keep it small. Driver isnt going to hold up for long and emitters are going to run grossly hot.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Maybe you could tell them to maximize surface area for the given design. This could mean fins that are closer together, deeper fins or more fins. Fins deeper than 3 mm would probably be better, but maybe if they have enough of them it wouldn't make that much difference.

Plus we are getting a prototype so hopefully they can make adjustments if it's not working properly.

Keep up the the good work GJHS!


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Sounds a lil iffy pushing specs to the extreme. Let's hope GB has a handle on reliability
and good heat mgmt, especially for MRMOLE!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Pushing leds to 3A is contraproductive as the heat can't be taken away unless you have quite big and rather heavy shell. If you stay around 2.4-2.5A margin the heat would be manageable. When the leds heat they are less efficient (produce less light and more heat) and more and more current goes into heat until you get into thermal runaway. 

Pushing leds to 3A should be used only for short "turbo" mode and you have to have thermal protection. This much of power might be used as a last level in the programable driver.
Don't forget to properly cool driver too. And if possible no PWM (but then it would be probably to expensive). If PWM is used it should have rather high fequency.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't recall GJHS saying that there would be 3A per emitter. I think most people here would be happy with 2A to 2.5A per emitter. This would result in less heat generated and perhaps better reliability.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

"run the LEDs to their fullest". Aka 3A per emitter 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I agree, 2.0 to 2.5A per emitter is plenty good enough. 

-Garry


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I'm sure that Gearbest wants this light reliable. I would assume they would only drive these Xpl emitters on the safe side if anything. They don't want unhappy customers. Look at their reluctance to carrying the bt21. And there's a demand for the 21...


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

All the optics that we posted on the previous page are for xm-l. Do we need different optics for XP-L? I've been reading that it's a successor to XP-G which is much smaller.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Xp-l isn't a successor. It's an xm-l2 phosphor crammed into a xpg2. Xp-l hi(yes hi is something completely different than xp-l) is a xp-l without the dome. Factory issue dedomed xm-l2 basically. So same optics will work just tighter beam or allows xp-l hi to function well with xpg2 optics.

The successor to xp-g2 is the new xp-g3.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Yes, not a direct successor, but a replacement for the XP-G. I got that from the product page



> The XLamp® XP-L LED is the first commercially available single-die LED to deliver breakthrough efficacy of up to 200 lm/w at 350 mA. The game-changing Cree® *XLamp XP-L LED delivers an immediate performance increase of 50% or more as a drop-in upgrade for lighting designs based on Cree's market-leading XLamp XP-G LEDs*. As the brightest member of the industry's only family of high-density-class discrete LEDs, the new XP-L LED redefines system performance, cost and size of LED lighting.


The point is that's it's a different size, 3.45 mm versus 5 mm of the XM-L2.

So would this be the correct optic?
10°, 30°, 60°, 80° degree Lens for CREE XP-L, XP-G2, XT-E, XP-G, XP-E


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

This optics have corect dimension for leds with 3.45mm base, but is the phosphor dye size which counts in optics and with XP-L (HI) dye size is same as XM-L (2). So we need to use XM-L type optics. 

Of couse I can't say the optics you linked would not work, but they were designed for smaller dye (regardless there is XP-L in title, they fit sizewise) and should be tested. The problem is in the beam which should be even and not ringy (which might happen).


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, I get it now.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

varider said:


> Ok, I get it now.


Thanks for asking all the questions related to the XP-L emitters. This is one area I'm not to sure about on this light. I've read comments on the XP-LHI but have yet to read anything on the XP-L so I'm not sure what to expect. Will be a learning experience, but that's always fun!
Mole


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The only advantage to them is that they run slightly cooler than xm-l2. And that requires being mounted on DTP copper boards too have any noticeable effect. Even then it's not something that would make a big difference in thermal performance of a bike light in high temp usage. Many because of thermal resistance from emitter to external area of the case.

DTP copper mcpcbs, actually screwed down with higher end thermal paste (the normal stuff used is just zinc oxide cream) then you'd be getting somewhere for a boost in performance.



Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

The more I ride at night, the warmer tints are becoming even more appealing. I'd like to see a light done at the 3500-4000k personally. A high cri nichia or an xhp50 double would be sweet...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Be great once they can get high CRI with high lumen output emitters. I have 219c emitters the tint is better bit but CRI im hard pressed to notice the difference. 219c color temp is about the same but nichia does a nice job with the color of the light emitted.

I'm debating on trying putting some in a bike light (though going to need more than 2-3, probably a quad for a bar light) to see if I I notice it much differently over Cree emitters.

Enough to warrant the large lumen loss anyway.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

It looks like the XP-L may put more light in the center of the beam compared to XM-L2. This may result in better throw.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

The XP-L HI is the best emitter I've used for beam quality. Coupled with the LEDDNA 10 degree optic you get a really nice reaching spot with enough spill. Excellent helmet combo. 

I would think that using the XP-L HI with the wider LEDDNA optics would satisfy those that want a wide beam too though I don't have any to test with.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Varider:

the XP-L HI is just what you said, its DESIGNED for throw. it has no dome so output is more focused (though about a 10% loss vs the v6 bin XP-l or XH-L2 U3). The modification of removing the dome by the flashlight guys has been around for years. Now cree offers an emitter that does the same thing out of the factory. Its meant to be able to throw like and XP-G2 but handle more current (3A like the XM-L2).

There is a big difference in the XP-L (normal dome version is referred to as High Density as it has highest lumen output) and the XP-L HI (High intensity, so makes for the tightest, most intense spot for best throw). XP-L is the same as an XM-L2. The XP-L HI is lower lumen output but has superior throw. 

If they put XP-L HI in the light I probably woulnt buy it either. Rather have the lumens I can widen out for spread than the long throw. more than 150-200ft is totally useless for me except open country riding on the fat bike. but no speed build up there or anything. I have to watch from the ground all the way up and wide to both sides so I need to keep my light spread out. Thankfully last nights ride I had changed to one wider optic in my helmet light (XP3) because I loaned another rider my bar light BECAUSE:

Cheap chinese piece of crap light, kept shutting off on her. Cheap chinese junk should be illegal, had she not been in a big group ride, shed have been seriously hurt and in trouble. Thank god I was right behind her riding with total over kill. so one light on the lid was plenty for me. And she got to finish the ride. Glad we are all getting a hand in this light because I really just want to start an anti cheap chinese light campaign. this is the second time just in the 4 group night rides ive done that a cheap light has caused problems.

This light we are doing will probably be one thats in rotation to sit in my pack from now on for group rides. a back up for the next poor rider that falls victim to that junk.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Update: Prototype is coming late this week or early next.

I am relaying all of your comments and feedback daily. Nefertari is also reading and together we are ensuring all is right. so far the list is 100% minus the remote. The only way to see how it all turns out is the prototype testing. I am assured (I asked a million+ times) that changes can be and will be made after testing. i have worked this as much as I can, now lets see how it translated. I apologize for lack of exact info, it just wasn't available to share and I've been asking to share the design photo for weeks without success.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks for the explanations/comments of the XP-L emitter. 

tigris99, I would hope that those people bring their own backup lights next time. Maybe something as simple as flashlight from Home Depot. They should have two lights to start off with anyway. 

I hope that this custom light turns out much more reliable than the ultra-cheap lights that are out there now (sub $20). 

GJHS looking forward to the prototype. Have you decided on who gets to look at the light?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

varider said:


> GJHS looking forward to the prototype. Have you decided on who gets to look at the light?


Not me, it was based on volunteers (not many) and GearBest's choice.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I don't concern myself with other riders needing lights, I brought a bunch of spares. But they were all told if you needed a decent light, let me know. Wasn't till we hit the trail that people realized their mistake. No big deal to me, doesn't bother me to run a single light on a group ride.

But that's how we are here. We cover each other. I've become the area "light guy". And not a big deal to carry a spare set up in my hydropack, it's got plenty of room.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

GJHS said:


> Not me, it was based on volunteers (not many) and GearBest's choice.


I Hope Gearbest was smart and choose Tigris99 as one of the testers. He's the only one who has access to a Ituo XP3/Gloworm XS (best performing similar lights) for direct comparison plus a sphere to measure actual light output. I have high hopes that this will end up being the "Go To" light to recommend to people on a tight budget wanting to try night riding. Yinding and BT40s are nice lights but both have issues I'm not totally comfortable with. BT21 was perfect till It's quality and availability fell apart after the first couple of production runs.
Mole


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I nominated MRMOLE, but he's too busy ridin....lol! I'm sure whoever gets the prototype will do a great job.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Dirt Road said:


> I nominated MRMOLE, but he's too busy ridin....lol! _I'm sure whoever gets the prototype will do a great job_.


Agreed! The format being used will still allow all of us to give input based on what we see and the testers comments before production specs. are finalized. Low projected price will also be a good chance to try out XP-L emitters so I'll probably buy one and by that time should have a XS and XP3 to compare it to. Hope to see some prototype pictures this weekend!
Mole


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Well, step forward with a design! The cloak and dagger does nothing for the light! Smart mofos populate this forum, I'm a bystander, let's see this beast.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Dirt Road said:


> Well, step forward with a design! The cloak and dagger does nothing for the light! Smart mofos populate this forum, I'm a bystander, let's see this beast.


I asked yesterday and her answer was "should be this friday or next monday/tuesday"

Now of course I asked yesterday which was their Friday so I'm guessing she meant 7/8 or 7/11


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## Whitedog1 (Feb 3, 2009)

hmmm... seems interesting!
Hopefully it doesn't take too Long until the prototype is sent out!


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## nefertari (Apr 8, 2015)

Well... Gearbest is sorry for the delay. We are trying our best to speed it up. When we have our basic test done which will be done as soon as possible, we will ship the prototypes to the 2 testers from the forum. 

- Nef.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

nefertari said:


> Well... Gearbest is sorry for the delay. We are trying our best to speed it up. When we have our basic test done which will be done as soon as possible, we will ship the prototypes to the 2 testers from the forum.
> 
> - Nef.


There is no need to hurry, we have plenty of time. We would rather have a light that's well made and is reliable.

Thank you for allowing this project to go forward.


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## mentawais (Feb 16, 2005)

I´m anxious waiting for this light test results comes and the final product ,I onw two BT-21s and I love it like helmet lights.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mentawais said:


> I´m anxious waiting for this light test results comes and the final product ,I onw two BT-21s and I love it like helmet lights.


Wondering what's going on with this light too. Maybe we'll get an update soon.
Mole


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Case design and prototype are done and we are waiting for the final working model. It's a small triple with a focus on cooling. I wish I had more info


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Sounds good. These things always take longer than anticipated.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok guys, the wait on this has been a long one and I still have no real updates. I have seen video of them testing it and this light is cool. They worked in one my ideas to make the light versatile and i think you will like it.

In the meantime while we wait, let me introduce you to the previous, rejected or should I say "improved upon" designs.

Design #1 "The Original"




















The original idea here was focusing wheels, thought not sure how they would work and I rejected that idea to keep with optics as requested. Also felt the bottom lip would block light and it needed way more fins. What I liked was the look and halo rings.

Design #2














Design 2 was without the focusing wheels and more fins, though still not enough

Design #3 "The Eagle"














Lets just say :nono:
Solarstorm anyone? I quickly and firmly explained how sharp those corners are and major changes were made. In fact the new, final design looks nothing like these 3 and yes has even more fins!

I just wanted to check in and ensure you this is happening. As I said, I have seen the working prototype. I will try to check with Nefertari tonight to get more info on a ready date.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for the update & sharing those pics! Looking forward to seeing the actual prototype! 

-Garry


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Looks neat. Maybe the halo was already discussed, but I didn't find anything with a thread search.

I know they look cool in the generated images, but are the halos actually visible when a functional light is on? Seems like the main light source would completely wash them out.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Normally they are nothing more than glow in the dark orings

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

way to keep em on course GJHS! That 1st design scared me with those focusing dials. Design 2 looks like they were on it, design 3 will rip your jewels off in a otb crash.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Focusing dials, lol. Yes, let's add something nobody wants. There was someone on the DIY section who made a light that focuses, but he had a wireless remote control to do it. It's not a bad idea really, it just adds unnecessary expense. I have a cheap $4 flashlight that has that sliding aspheric lens. The main problem is that it puts all the light in a circle, with no spill outside of it. The regular optics provide a much nicer beam. Having the dials on top like that would make for a nightmare for waterproofing. 

Design 2 looked ok, it just needed to have those fins all the way across the top. Design 3 could be used like a Ninja star to ward off intruders. It looks like they are trying to use similar technique for making the case as the Solarstorm lights. I wish I understood more about manufacturing to know what that is. Maybe some sort of casting or extrusion. I don't think they would try something on a full CNC machine, that would be expensive. The shape in design 3 seems to be overly complicated for a CNC machine. 

The real problem with those lights was the lack of a solid wall behind the led plate. The led plate actually was the wall. Not good. I applaud them for trying to make something that actually looks cool though. We just have to make sure it's functional as well. 

Keep at it GJHS!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

> I wish I understood more about manufacturing to know what that is. Maybe some sort of casting or extrusion.......The real problem with those lights was the lack of a solid wall behind the led plate. The led plate actually was the wall. Not good.


Those designs look like extrusion is the raw material. Hopefully a solid center extrusion with all the emitter/driver cavities CNC machined in. That's how you get a solid LED mounting surface with the best heat transfer. A hollow center extrusion is quite a bit less expensive due getting more feet of extrusion per pound of aluminum. It also reduces the amount of material to machine out but leaves the housing with only a narrow support ledge for the LED mounting surface.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I like the look of design #2. Looks like it is Gopro mount ready too. Of course this isn't the final design so really the important thing is that this new lamp have a good beam pattern and use replaceable optics. I'm also hoping for a good ( warmer ) NW tint but we'll see how that turns out. Good job GJHS! Keep us informed.:thumbsup:


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

I like how the fins are in line with the air flow. Some case designs have their grooves/fins at 90°, which would seem to be less efficient for cooling. Some emitter designs seem to be running cool enough to get by with all aluminum heatsinks, but I wonder if running a copper center section press fit into a finned, aluminum case would be worth the trouble, similar to what is done with some CPU heatsinks.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Only plus side (been heavily tested on BLF) is driving LEDs well over rated current. Unless using direct thermal path copper boards which are expensive (made by noctigon and sinkpad only). Those help but costs vs benefits isn't their unless your pushing the emitters at higher levels or just being a lumen whore and trying to get every last lumen though can't actually see the difference in use.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Is anyone doing high lumen, LN2 runs yet?


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Vancbiker said:


> Those designs look like extrusion is the raw material. Hopefully a solid center extrusion with all the emitter/driver cavities CNC machined in. That's how you get a solid LED mounting surface with the best heat transfer. A hollow center extrusion is quite a bit less expensive due getting more feet of extrusion per pound of aluminum. It also reduces the amount of material to machine out but leaves the housing with only a narrow support ledge for the LED mounting surface.


Thanks for the explanation. I would be surprised if we got the more expensive method, but let's hope for the best.


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## Mantelimies (Sep 3, 2015)

GJHS said:


> I just wanted to check in and ensure you this is happening. As I said, I have seen the working prototype. I will try to check with Nefertari tonight to get more info on a ready date.


Sooooo did you get any responses? Not like I'm overeager or anything. Could you at least leak some semi-crappy photo of the prototype so the speculating can begin?


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## Red Rock (Sep 12, 2014)

Any updates on this light?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*STILL INTERESTED*, in the light and any new information!
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

We were talking lights last night after our group ride. Guys were talking about buying new lights, which ones to buy, etc. . . Would have been nice to be able to suggest this one.

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> We were talking lights last night after our group ride. Guys were talking about buying new lights, which ones to buy, etc. . . *Would have been nice to be able to suggest this one*.
> 
> -Garry


Been in the same situation the last few months. Been happy to steer people to all the new Ituo lights but even though they're excellent in performance, quality, and are very reasonably priced it's still more money than some people are willing to spend. BT40s/Yinding's are OK but we really need something to fill the hole left by the discontinued BT21. Hope it won't be long!
Mole


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Sorry Guys, I have been pushing them for answers. I will push again and see if there is any update.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok got an answer. The light will arrive at GB today, a bit more testing and then it goes out to us for review and testing.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Great news. 

Ask GB to take a couple pictures of it with a smartphone. I'm dying to know what it looks like

Thanks for doing all this work on this GJHS, it's much appreciated.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok here ya go!


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Looks pretty cool,GJHS! No shortage of fins, let's hope they keep up the good work.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Thanks for the images. I'm going to call mine Fuzzy!
Mole


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Nice! 

It looks pretty tiny for a triple. I wonder what the thing on the back is? It could be a bolt that holds the rear plate on. Look at all that surface area for cooling! I like how they rounded the the fins near the front and the back, that's an important detail. Otherwise it would have been death by a thousand cuts. I'm praying that there is a solid heat path between the led plate and outside. That's the Achilles heel for these China-original lights. I guess we will know soon enough

Whoever gets this thing for review better take some pictures of that.

Also I would like to know if the gopro mount on the bottom is bolted to the underside or if it's an integral part of the case. It looks like it's made in the same way the fins are made. If that's the case I would be worried about it breaking off in a crash. That's a minor issue though.


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

It sure ain't a copy, I can say. Dark Knight / Batman lamp, not too bad.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thing on the back I bet is for the battery cable 

Holy fins batman!!!! That's almost overkill for most but Mole will love it.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

varider said:


> Nice!
> 
> It looks pretty tiny for a triple. I wonder what the thing on the back is? It could be a bolt that holds the rear plate on. Look at all that surface area for cooling! I like how they rounded the the fins near the front and the back, that's an important detail. Otherwise it would have been death by a thousand cuts. I'm praying that there is a solid heat path between the led plate and outside. That's the Achilles heel for these China-original lights. I guess we will know soon enough
> 
> ...


The mount is integral

and you can see the cable exits from the bottom. We have already discussed moving it over towards the side, similar to the Yinding.

The thing on the back is the feature I requested, which I will reveal when we test it. We have to keep some surprises.

There is very very good heat transfer to the case and i insisted on a ton of fins, especially since its so small.

Its good to see things progressing. i have seen a video of it tested and I think it will be worth the wait. If it takes much longer to get the sample, I'll post the video (I have permission BTW).


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

varider said:


> ........Also I would like to know if the gopro mount on the bottom is bolted to the underside or if it's an integral part of the case. It looks like it's made in the same way the fins are made. If that's the case I would be worried about it breaking off in a crash. That's a minor issue though.


Based on my experience with making GoPro adapters for other lights.....

If you break the tabs on an aluminum adapter in a crash, I think you'll have other more important things broken too. They are pretty tough. I've not yet had anyone report broken tabs on one of my aluminum adapters for any reason. There have been a couple reports of crashes pulling the threads out of the housing though. Unless one has a heli-coil set, that pretty much renders the light useless.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Meh just drill and tap the whole for a slightly bigger screw, your doing just that for helicoil anyway  doesn't work for all fixes but would do fine for a light head.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Special feature, eh? Looking forward to it.

The mount looks pretty solid from that angle. 

Vancbiker, I think you could make an adapter with grooves on the top which could be epoxied to the bottom (after grinding off the broken tabs). I think you're right though, you would probably be more worried about paying the hospital bill than fixing the light


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

This light has a lot of potential. Hope the internals are spec'r accordingly. Like the integrated go pro. And the wired remote port! (purely speculation). Maybe a threaded hole to use with a long handle for animal attacks! Skunks be forewarned! Deadly self defense tool!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

tigris99 said:


> Meh just drill and tap the whole for a slightly bigger screw, your doing just that for helicoil anyway  doesn't work for all fixes but would do fine for a light head.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


That is another option. Most stripped M4 threads can be tapped out to SAE size 10-24 or 10-32 without much trouble unless the drilled hole is very shallow or worse, the mounting hole goes into the driver or emitter cavity of the light where careless drilling or tapping leads to driver or emitter damage directly or due to metal chips.

Back on topic....

Do you have a weight for this light? From the pics it looks pretty chunky. Looks like pretty small (20mm?) optics/reflectors for the body size.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

SWEET! Very cool look...both figuratively and literally. Me hopes it is offered with neutral white emitters and Me hopes it has more power than the typical SStorm X3. I also hope is is coming with a programmable UI. GJHS, nice job getting this done. I hope the surprise in the rear is a remote port. 

I think it highly unlikely there will be any problems with heat sinking inside the lamp. If they went through all the trouble to provide all of those outer fins I doubt they neglected to do the inside right.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Looks very nice! Can't wait to see and/or hear more about driver, UI, etc. . .

-Garry


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Well the batteries from Kaidomain fit this light or do we not know yet. How long would the 10200 mah run the light.

http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024616....uality-Rechargeable-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack

http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024443....uality-Rechargeable-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The light has barely made it into a test prototype there is no knowledge of anything yet. We have a picture from the factory and that's it right now. Will be some time before any of those questions can be answered.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

There's no way they would do something stupid and put a proprietary or obscure connector on this light when we've (i.e. GJHS relaying our desires) dictated what we want with this light. The light has to come with the standard MagicShine connector on a thick (at least 20ga) power lead or else they'd lose sales to many of us that want lighthead only with our own packs. One fact we don't know is whether this light will be sold lighthead only, light & battery pack combo only, or either way - and if with a battery pack, what that pack will be built with. 

-Garry


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Good point gb. I just looked at the 4cell panny pack I ordered from Gearbest, and sure enuff, it's got 22awg wire on it. I've been using the bak packs from my nitefighters, and 1 is getting less than stellar runtimes. So I broke out the panny pack I bought and shure as sh1t is 22awg. Ad definitely said 20awg, idkwtf!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Dirt Road said:


> .....So I broke out the panny pack I bought and shure as sh1t is 22awg. Ad definitely said 20awg, idkwtf!


It's typical of cheap China $hit. They'll advertise what ever they think will get the most sales and ship whatever they get from their suppliers. QC and consistency are not the forte of the low price sellers.

You'll be OK with 22AWG wire as long as your light draws less than 3A. Around 3A or higher, voltage drop gets noticeable with 22AWG. Particularly if you have a longish cable.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Guys, expect some shortcuts at $50 for the lighthead. That's why we insisted on checking the prototype before it was finalized and don't worry, everyone will know the internals before production. This will be as high end as possible and will have what no other light in its class has. Everything so far is on track and as requested. I have seen the tint, its definitely neutral without being yellow, I would say 3C. What remains to be seen is emitter quality, cable quality and driver quality. The latter is my concern though I can confirm its programmable.

I know there were some discussions about Optics so I am not sure where we are right now. We will sort it all out in the prototype testing which is taking long though better they work out the bugs first and not rush it.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

GJHS said:


> Guys, expect some shortcuts at $50 for the lighthead. That's why we insisted on checking the prototype before it was finalized and don't worry, everyone will know the internals before production. This will be as high end as possible and will have what no other light in its class has. Everything so far is on track and as requested. I have seen the tint, its definitely neutral without being yellow, I would say 3C. What remains to be seen is emitter quality, cable quality and driver quality. The latter is my concern though I can confirm its programmable.
> 
> I know there were some discussions about Optics so I am not sure where we are right now. We will sort it all out in the prototype testing which is taking long though better they work out the bugs first and not rush it.


Yah most don't understand a lot of compromises have to be made to reach a low price. Can't get high quality and all the perks desired for less than it would cost to build the lights.

I'm on the fence about the look of the light but functionality for keeping the light cool will be good.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Yep ya start hitting higher price points then your into Gemini , Ituo territory.
Just keep it simple and hope for a decent light. Good job GJHS.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't know. I think a lot can be done and still keep it cheap. I mean components are pennies and so is the labor over there. I look at the work going on with Thorfire for the BLF "Q8" (i.e. a "proper" SkyRay King type light with 4x18650's and 4x XP-L's for 4,000+ lumens) . It has a $40 price tag (at least for the group buy - which is likely for hundreds of buys) and is being built exactly like BLF is spec'ing. Of course BLF members are building the driver and providing the firmware. I think that's the weak point with us - the manufacturer may not understand proper driver / firmware design and just put something together that "works". I mean look at all the cheap budget lights with stupid modes! I think they need to understand that they don't need to build it to sell cheap, they just need to build a quality reliable product for a reasonable cost (and best for them if it's less than the competition). Many of us have stated that we'd be willing to buy proper BT21's for a higher cost than Nitefighter (and/or distributors) was selling them for.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Garry, thing is though there is a long list of costs that aren't part of that light build.

Thing is I have gotten in on a few group buys and learned fast quantity control on them is no better than other Chinese stuff. Still have issues ive had to fix.

First the host is already manufactured in high numbers : no extensive set up costs or skilled labor needed. Just the buying power of volume on something widely produced in large qty already.

Next is no need for a design team, BLF is literally do ALL the work. That's a nother HUGE chunk of costs.

No real quality control. This is another LARGE cost. Because to keep a production run within tight specifications means that quality has to be checked with equipment costing in the $1000s of dollars or more and anything not meeting the requirements gets tossed out. Including entire segments (possibly in 10s or 100+ right in the recycling bin) if needed.

Instead they are being told all the parts they need, they can source the cheapest versions that will do the job, even if only for a few uses, sit at their kitchen tables and assemble. The only cost to them is assembly and having the parts delivered. Then shipping out finished units.

Also none of them have any federal standards to meet or worry about getting sued by the next moron that tries to connect the battery to something it's not meant for and blows it up, burning down their garage.

$40 a unit, say 100 units to assemble and ship out, $4000 dollars, I could do that by myself in a day and make more than I do in a month at my day job. Cause I don't gave to worry about a warranty or anything as long as it functions when it gets to the buyer.

Fyi, my day job is manufacturing, so I know in depth (sadly) what is involved and the associated costs. Granted what would cost $10000 in the US could be had for $1000 in China (but not the same level of quality) the steps and requirements to make any product remains the same.


China counts on that mentality that they can cut corners all over the place and make a killing selling cheaper than the js can make the same thing. People in general have no clue, they see a few good reviews on Amazon or feedback on eBay and the fact it costs so much less. Have no understanding of the fact that like them, the people that make US products have the same ridiculous bills to pay, so cost of the end product is higher.


Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I definitely like where this is going. See my request for things like this here:
16.8V 20W bike light? | BudgetLightForum.com

I've got a sort of unusual mild desire to have 16.8V compatibility. I doubt most people care but we are talking about a head unit only so maybe others have some desire for power source flexibility? I'm willing to tear out the driver and rewire it though and even lose the modes, if it's a good light with good thermal performance, but that may depend if I can fit something like this regulator in it:

https://www.fasttech.com/products/0...-dc-dc-converter-voltage-stabilizer-regulator

Anyway, I don't think anyone mentioned interference with bluetooth smart and ant+. I don't know how often that's really a problem, but that would be bad and is another good reason maybe to stay away from wireless. I can't imagine much radiation getting out of that housing though, but I don't know.

I agree with the majority of requests here against cool white, and even sympathize with the Nichia remarks (but that's going too far/dim) I'm used to halogen and blue leds just make riding at night less enjoyable. With three leds there is room to spare on lumens with a big enough battery pack anyway.

I'm undecided on (leaning toward being against) the XP-L hi. I do want good throw, and do ride fast, but I'm not sure I need THAT good a throw. 15 degrees maybe? I think a domed version can get there no? Anyway, could always go with one Hi and two regulars.

As has been stated PWM flicker is terrible. I only have experience with a bit over 100hz, and that's horrible. I suspect 4.5 khz is just fine. I'd be nervous about 1khz or lower.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Flintrock,
our design is geared to regular packs that are 2S2P for maximum compatibility with what most people already have. This project has been in the works since March of 2015, so most things are pretty set at this point. Maybe you can modify the light to meet your desires. At this point we are just trying to get it done. 

Welcome to the forum though


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I understand, and that's as I expected. Of course guts can (and I suspect may) change. Of course LED selection is easily changed anytime. The housing/heatsinking here and some good optics, with a bonus hopefully of good leds too, is what I'm liking. As you can see in that other thread, I've basically realized that if I want 16.8V I will probably just rip out the electronics, and wire the LED's in series to a buck regulator. Or, I could tolerate the waste of double regulation and keep the modes.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> The light has barely made it into a test prototype there is no knowledge of anything yet. We have a picture from the factory and that's it right now. Will be some time before any of those questions can be answered.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Ok, but the chat here as all been about upwards of 2A for each LED, hence all the cooling work. That's about 6 watts or a little more per LED so let's call it 20W total or even 25 if it really goes to 2.5A as has been tossed around. All this work for a 10W light wouldn't make much sense in my opinion. 10Ahr at 7.4 V is a 74Whr pack. That's not driving that pack very hard so it should get most of that (some not at full brightness, and I didn't round up quite enough for driver inefficiency) So I'd guess the better part of 3 hours seems reasonable to expect on full (in reality probably won't stay on full that long, but will thus last longer). This is some guess work, but it should be much more than hour, but hopefully not more than 6 on high (that would already be disappointing).


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

By the looks of the prototype and GJHS post, I'd feel lucky if we get optics change ability.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

BY the way I really wish batteries were sold with Whr instead of Ahr designations. Sometimes you even see it counted wrong, as if adding the Ahr of each cell in a 2s pack. Whr are always directly comparable from individual load elements (in series or parallel, regardless of driver voltage) to source, from packs of one voltage to another. Ahr are not. /end_soapbox


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There's a lot of its, never a good idea to give an answer we don't know for certain here. People here aren't like blf, there are a lot that will loose their minds if we give incorrect info. Better to keep it open until the specs are tested and known.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> There's a lot of its, never a good idea to give an answer we don't know for certain here. People here aren't like blf, there are a lot that will loose their minds if we give incorrect info. Better to keep it open until the specs are tested and known.


I heard they're not using 18 AWG silver power leads.

:smilewinkgrin:


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

tigris99 said:


> ........ Better to keep it open until the specs are tested and known.


And even then, it is a good idea to keep an eye on what is being sold. There have been far to many lights that are reviewed very favorably at the initial build only to have issues develop down the road. QC and consistent manufacturing are not in the budget for a manufacturer of low cost lights


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

GJHS said:


> The mount is integral
> 
> and you can see the cable exits from the bottom.


I like that the cable exits from the bottom rather than being in shear. But does the integrated mount mean that it will have to be paired with a GoPro adapter or will an adjustable proprietary clamp be furnished? Because the GoPros only fit like a 31.8mm bar at the narrowest without redonculous shimming whereas the MagicShine style mount can accommodate even the skinny old 1" bars with the smaller O-ring.

Thanks GJHS.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm here thinking: WT* get on with it already! LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT!

If there is no answer from GB by the weekend, I will release the video. GB I don't want to be taking beamshots out in the cold, frozen chestnuts and all, please speed it up.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

andychrist said:


> ...... Because the GoPros only fit like a 31.8mm bar at the narrowest without redonculous shimming whereas the MagicShine style mount can accommodate even the skinny old 1" bars with the smaller O-ring.


Should not be an issue, I can provide a nice GoPro mount in 1" (25.4mm) and even 7/8" (22.2mm). Dedicated sizing, no shims used.

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/new-gopro-mounts-1002310.html


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

GJHS said:


> I'm here thinking: WT* get on with it already! LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT!
> 
> If there is no answer from GB by the weekend, I will release the video. GB I don't want to be taking beamshots out in the cold, frozen chestnuts and all, please speed it up.


Send me one, I'll take care of the cold weather, I love playing in the snow now that I got a fatty 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

andychrist said:


> I like that the cable exits from the bottom rather than being in shear. But does the integrated mount mean that it will have to be paired with a GoPro adapter or will an adjustable proprietary clamp be furnished? Because the GoPros only fit like a 31.8mm bar at the narrowest without redonculous shimming whereas the MagicShine style mount can accommodate even the skinny old 1" bars with the smaller O-ring.
> 
> Thanks GJHS.


Here's the three 1" bar solutions I have, I'm sure there's more.
Mole







Vancbiker/Ituo/Amazon + shims


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Where did you get those shims from Mole? I never saw them with the GoPro adapters I bought from Amazon.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

andychrist said:


> Where did you get those shims from Mole? I never saw them with the GoPro adapters I bought from Amazon.


The shims didn't come with the mount. Don't remember exactly where I got them but I think it was from a friend who works in a bike shop. I'll check with him and will have to get back to with an answer on where to get them later.
Mole

***I just googled "25.4 to 31.8 handle bar shims" and saw similar shims on ebay. Looked through a few pages on amazon and didn't see them there. I'll still check with my friend.***


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

For those who like the cheap DIY, search conduit hangers on amazon. They come in different sizes. Find a wing-nut-headed bolt and you've got quick release.

Ok, that's a bit hacker, but as for rubber shims, really? We're cyclists. You take big loops of rubber off your bike every time you get a rip flat right? And you have glue under your seat to stick layers together. Nice ones are better ok but it shouldn't ever be a big problem I think.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Based on other light listings, if this thing lives up to its heat fins, I think it has to be advertised as 350000000000000000000. lumens. It's only fitting right. Or just go with 3.5 fafillion lumens for short. It will probably be taken equally seriously by amazon reviewers no matter.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

andychrist said:


> But does the integrated mount mean that it will have to be paired with a GoPro adapter or will an adjustable proprietary clamp be furnished? Because the GoPros only fit like a 31.8mm bar at the narrowest without redonculous shimming whereas the MagicShine style mount can accommodate even the skinny old 1" bars with the smaller O-ring.


What about asking them to make a GoPro o-ring mount? What I'm thinking of would be like the top half of the "Amazon GoPro mount" on the right in Mole's post, but with the o-ring flanges like come on the usual bike light bases for using an o-ring to mount it to the bars. Is that even worth pursuing? I don't think I'd use it, but maybe there's interest.

-Garry


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> Ok, that's a bit hacker, but as for rubber shims, really? We're cyclists. You take big loops of rubber off your bike every time you get a rip flat right? And you have glue under your seat to stick layers together. Nice ones are better ok but it shouldn't ever be a big problem I think.


A piece of hose works well for anything thicker than a tube. A few wraps of self-fusing silicone tape is another option.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Pretty sure Mole's plastic shims must have come from a Shimano front derailleur, they were included with both Deores I recently purchased but had to use them as purposed.

Yeah I've tried cut up lengths of tires and tubes but it's difficult to make the mount stay centered, am always having to fiddle with it. Silicone tape would probably work a lot better. But the cross piece on my chopper bars is only about 1/2" diameter, all the required shimming would get kinda mushy. Maybe 1" aluminum tape would do the trick there.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

not a cheap option but they do exist, just have to find cheap copies if needed:

http://shop.gopro.com/mounts/pro-handlebar-seatpost-pole-mount/AMHSM-001.html

Helps if you guys forget thinking handlebars only for mounting options. seat posts, rollbars etc, theirs A TON OF OPTIONS if you know how to look in the right place.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS said:


> If there is no answer from GB by the weekend, I will release the video.


I'm pretty sure it's Friday in China. That's close enough


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

andychrist said:


> Mole's plastic shims


Shims are metal.
Mole


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> not a cheap option but they do exist, just have to find cheap copies if needed:
> 
> http://shop.gopro.com/mounts/pro-handlebar-seatpost-pole-mount/AMHSM-001.html
> 
> Helps if you guys forget thinking handlebars only for mounting options. seat posts, rollbars etc, theirs A TON OF OPTIONS if you know how to look in the right place.


Yeah $60 for the mount kinda defeats the idea of a $50 lamp.

Seat post mounts go the wrong way. (But then, so do I.)



MRMOLE said:


> Shims are metal.
> Mole


Yes I suppose my Deore are anodized alloy.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

A solid, plastic shim (and many other things) can be made from polycaprolactone.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I agree, seat posts go the wrong way and I don't know what a rollbar is, I'm guessing it's some kind part that's too heavy to be found on a road bike (yes I'm an infiltrator). There are though accessory bars:

https://www.amazon.com/BM-WORKS-Speed-Extender-Lightweight/dp/B00M13QMVA/

And some even help with quick release.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Seat post mounts do go the wrong way but the one I linked rotates.

And ya for a $50 lamp the mount is a bit pricey but how many actually buy a mount to mount just one light? In some cases it doesn't make sense but it would work for anything with a GoPro mount.

Just like vancbikers mount. There are options. Just have to look.

And by the way a roll bar is something used to protect people in vehicles or on ATVs during off-road use. Who cares how heavy that is, it has nothing to do with cycling. A GoPro mount is going to be the same either way whether it's listed for a bicycle or a rollbar.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Double post!


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Now it's Sunday I think... release the hounds! Or the video.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> And by the way a roll bar is something used to protect people in vehicles or on ATVs during off-road use.


Right, I know those. I thought we were talking bikes, I guess that was your point. Seat posts are a non-starter for me.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

OK, I'm taking a wild stab at the thing on the back... turbo button, preferably with a 30s or so timer. Suddenly need more light.. no time to fiddle through modes... one touch turbo. Ok, just a guess. The problem with that guess is I'm not really sure I could see fitting a boost converter in there that could really provide say 5A of turbo anyway. We'll see.

It must be Monday by now in China.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Mid-Autumn Day: days off Sep. 15-17 - see: China Public Holidays, Calendars of China Holidays and Festivals in 2016, 2017, 2018


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Yes, yes, but you kind of lost the thread. Never mind.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

No need for a boost converter, depending on driver design it's either boost or buck to either increase or decrease voltage to the leds. it's all about what the driver is designed to handle. And a turbo button has been done on so many lights and except for commuters, is the most pointless thing ever. A remote to switch modes works just as quickly.

This light isn't designed for road use anyway ( unless you ride out in the open country with very few other users after dark). So I hope they aren't wasting efforts on a turbo mode and remote button for it.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

The port on the back is to plug in the optional tail light:


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Damn thanks for reminding me, keep forgetting to order one for the fat bike. Share the link again will ya?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

While we're waiting,

So I'm just curious, isthere any honesty at all anywhere in this business?

I've been wanting to replace an old DIY halogen (which is darn bright, certainly far brighter an XM-L at 3A but of course has a short life with big pack) So I've been looking at budget lights and there just seems to be very little out there where one can believe it will reliably run at 20W with good LED's without at least looking at group buys (and 10W is silly, can as well run a couple of single cell lights and switch over when one runs out). Am I wrong?

So I thought, ok, let's look a bit higher dollar. Magic shine is the most known name no? So they have this:
MAGICSHINE

which I wouldn't call exactly "budget" at $200 on amazon.

And then I see they claim 8000 lumens.

Now that's a 6 cell pack, which could be as high as 80Whr, but by their own numbers it's more like 60 (10Wh/cell is a reasonable safe estimate generally anyway)

Ok, but they claim it runs 3 hours on high. So that's 60Wh/3h= 20 watts.

Ok, that's fine and good (unimpressive that it has no higher turbo mode at that price but ok), but there's no way in h... that 20W of LED power is making 8000 lumens. XM-L2's get maybe 180 lumen/W in perfect conditions with disturbingly blue binned light, so that's 3600 lumens max, with perfect optics, 100% efficiency and no thermal sag.

So even at high dollar we get lied too? That doesn't give me high confidence in the product. Are there any trustworthy quality brands, even for some money? Am I getting something wrong on this? I can't find any mention of a turbo mode.

*EDIT: I checked my numbers, with that many LED's they are low current and higher efficiency. I upgraded my estimate (already changed above). Still pretty far off their claims.

*I based my numbers off 700mA values for XM-L2 here:
Cree - Flashlight Wiki
and found a forward voltage of 2.85 at 700 mA from cree data sheets. So from 360 lumens at highest bin, that's 360lumens/(.7A*2.85V)=180 lumens per watt, again in perfect conditions, no losses. Based on cree's own data sheet:
http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...-Modules/XLamp/Data-and-Binning/XLampXML2.pdf
That 360 number is for 25C. It already drops to 320 at 85 and my forward voltage estimate is probably a little low too. Basically I'd be shocked if they even get 3000 lumens at 3 hour battery life and the color would have to be horrible at that.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> So even at high dollar we get lied too? That doesn't give me high confidence in the product. Are there any trustworthy quality brands, even for some money? Am I getting something wrong on this? I can't find any mention of a turbo mode.
> 
> *EDIT: I checked my numbers, with that many LED's they are low current and higher efficiency. I upgraded my estimate. Still pretty far off their claims.*


not sure if cereal

If you want 6000 independently verified lumens, they can be found here.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Serial or not doesn't matter. Current in each led is the same no matter how you wire them, and for 20 watts it would be about 0.8A. Of course in parallel, your driver has to put out 0.8*8A and in serial it has to put out 0.8A but higher voltage, but either way, each LED is doing the same thing.

I would believe that the battery run-time claims are what is false, and I found a youtube review comment saying exactly that. It's certainly possible to get 6000 lumens out 8 leds (with enough cooling), but not for 3 hours on 60 Watt hours of energy. No way Jose.

edit: and Should I be happy if it's only 30% overstated (but it's not)? Chalk it up to industry standard?


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Oh, I see your link is for a different light. Ok. I'm not surprised cateye is legit. Now that's DEFINITELY not budget class.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Flintrock said:


> ...I've been wanting to replace an old DIY halogen (which is darn bright, certainly far brighter an XM-L at 3A but of course has a short life with big pack) So I've been looking at budget lights and there just seems to be very little out there where one can believe it will reliably run at 20W with good LED's without at least looking at group buys (and 10W is silly, can as well run a couple of single cell lights and switch over when one runs out). Am I wrong?
> 
> So I thought, ok, let's look a bit higher dollar. Magic shine is the most known name no? So they have this:
> MAGICSHINE
> ...


Actually, you picked a very poor choice for comparison. When Magicshine introduced their newest line of lamps their claimed outputs were quickly challenged by many ( including myself ).. There were threads on the subject many months ago but it didn't take long for people to see that MS vastly over-rated their new lamps. Don't know how they thought they could get away with it but it's pretty much common knowledge to the people who visit forums like these that the people at MS were suffering from _de-lumens of grandeur._ :smilewinkgrin:

Anyway, don't know what halogen bulb you could be referring to that is brighter than a Cree XML LED unless you are talking about a car bulb. Car halogen bulbs got to be drawing more than 35Watts of power I would think. Regardless, if you're still using halogen...you're living in the dark ages ( tech wise ). LED tech is just more useful/efficient ( when compared to halogen ). They're smaller, lighter weight, use less power and can be moderated with more usable User Interfaces. Some people just have a hard time giving up their DIY stuff. Plenty of very good / affordable LED bike lights out there, not to mention you can DIY with LED's too.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

It's overvoltaged, one of the more "modern" IR conversion varieties, and yeah... running about 45watts (maybe more now that I recall the details)! It's darn nice, and a VERY comfortable tint, but sure, I usually just strap on my single cell tac light anyway now days. Anyway, ok, good to know.. wrong brand to trust. So what's the good one in that price range?


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> edit: and Should I be happy if it's only 30% overstated (but it's not)? Chalk it up to industry standard?


My point was that the overestimation of specifications has been rampant in the world of electronics for a very long time. For example, the world of car audio is filled with impressive feats of marketing speak.

I think it's incredibly cool that MTBR members are running their own tests and posting those results. The generosity shown in sharing their results is commendable, and it makes it easier for everyone to separate the hype from the light.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> So what's the good one in that price range?


If you can wait, the light discussed in this thread might be right for you. If I was shopping, I'd at least wait a bit longer to see what specs are attached to that prototype.

If you can't wait, Ituo is a good place to start.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Magicshine has gone the way of cheap Chinese lights. Way overstating everything. Usually you can get 3+ hrs pretty easy out of a 6 cell pack. A good 6 cell your talking over 10000mah.

The crap thing is Magicshine pulls this garbage and charges mid range prices. They are on the "lumens sell " mentality. This is how cheap brands get the majority of their sales, claiming insane lumens at good runtime. Can't have both without a massive pack to run it as you've noticed.

Right now bang for buck for honest specs and quality to back it up is definitely Ituo. The only light that's a bit overrated (but they post the real info, just haven't updated product listing) is the wiz20 which is actually about 1400 lumens. I've ran a lot of lights through my home made sphere. Out of all I've tested thus far, only ituo, Gemini, and glowworm have tested true to specs on both output and runtime. Gemini lacks a little on runtime on their bigger lights but not bad. And pushed a bit hard for their size so they are more difficult to keep out of thermal step down (which is the worst I've seen, from high to low mode in an instant). Ituo sporting the best thermal management program. Glowworm very close behind.

I don't even mess with cheap lights any more, this custom light will be the only light I'll pay money for below the brands above. And I paid for my glowworm lights. Cheap lights to me just aren't worth it. Mostly cool white tints, poor heat management, batteries are junk and so on.

That's why this light came to be, all wanting something half way decent (knowing it won't be up to par with branded lights but acceptable being what it is) that was a bit more budget friendly.

Just like cheap Chinese lights are the biggest reason we say don't ride with only one light. High failure rate, not fun to have a light stop working when your deep in the woods. Even branded lights can fail but it's rare and usually not a total failure, just not working very well so minimal light. Better than no light at least.

If you ride at night a lot and depend heavily on your lights, except this light (assuming it turns out like we hope) just avoid cheap lights. You may get lucky and it works good but no matter what you'll be stuck with cool white tints and chappy batteries.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Magicshine has gone the way of cheap Chinese lights. Way overstating everything. Usually you can get 3+ hrs pretty easy out of a 6 cell pack. A good 6 cell your talking over 10000mah.


Great reply, thanks. As you probably can tell, I'm not afraid to do a little modding. I'm willing to change stars, LED's, and drivers. Even hacking things up with some aliexpress buck converters is ok with me.

But I'd prefer to start with good optics (because I know nothing about it) and don't really want to try to cut up copper heat sink inserts with a dremmel tool, so solid optics, solid cooling would be a at least a good start and it looks like this is headed that way.

I've actually been looking at the Q8 (SRK clone) over at BLF. It seems a little heavy though, maybe even with the battery compartment removed. It will have a tripod mount. I guess there should be better starting points for a bike light (it was never intended for that), it's just hard to pass up something that so much thought went into though. And 4 leds run more efficiently than 3.

Anwyway. I will check out Ituo lights too.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> If you can wait, the light discussed in this thread might be right for you. If I was shopping, I'd at least wait a bit longer to see what specs are attached to that prototype.
> 
> If you can't wait, Ituo is a good place to start.


Yeah.. I'm going to wait... or maybe buy two


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

The wiz xp-3 numbers do seem to add up to a very realistic 100 lumens per watt (and it seems they rounded down to that from their actual tests). Looks like a nice light.


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## mentawais (Feb 16, 2005)

tigris99 said:


> Magicshine has gone the way of cheap Chinese lights. Way overstating everything. Usually you can get 3+ hrs pretty easy out of a 6 cell pack. A good 6 cell your talking over 10000mah.
> 
> The crap thing is Magicshine pulls this garbage and charges mid range prices. They are on the "lumens sell " mentality. This is how cheap brands get the majority of their sales, claiming insane lumens at good runtime. Can't have both without a massive pack to run it as you've noticed.
> 
> ...


I own many MS lights , Eagle F3 is a good light around 2500 lumens(neutral) , MS 906 nice light very good battery good throw but it is white cool around 3000 lumens , MS 908 it is very power but it has a faulty design in the start button I'm in the second light same problem just suddenly stops!I'm waiting for a answer from Action Leds Store to replace it for another model I hope they can give a second warranty!


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Well isn't that the way of chinese junk? It's nice... except it doesn't work? I don't know, just messing with you, but it does sound about right.

Anyway, I'm not living in the past. I'm preparing for the (very warm and comforting) future:

Return of incandescent light bulbs as MIT makes them more efficient than LEDs

I'm an early adopter. You guys will catch up some day.

Seriously though I looked up 35W Phillips masterline halogens, and they're specced at about 600 lumes (more for the 24 degree a little less for 8). I think that's correct. I also found Ge's data sheet explaining the voltage vs lumen curve that goes as V to 3.6th power. As I recall power draw does not go up nearly like v squared either because resistance increases almost linearly. So at 16.8 V it's about a 3.3 times brightness enhancement over 12V, so yeah pushing close to 2000 lumens (and maybe close to 50W). Maybe guess 1500 lumens is more realistic. Of course that starts to drop of like the 3.6th power of voltage too, so... 
That it's a 3000K light though. To get 3000K in xml takes a big hit and to get it in 100 CRI is impossible.

Of course lumens per watt LEDS are still by far better no doubt even at nearly the same light quality.

Edit: and by the way that phillips is I think dichoric, which is essentially the same idea, if poorer technological implementation, of what the guys at MIT are doing.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow! I come back to this thread and it's so derailed off course! Can we please move this discussion to a new thread?

-Garry


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

garrybunk said:


> Wow! I come back to this thread and it's so derailed off course! Can we please move this discussion to a new thread?
> 
> -Garry


No.



You're correct, of course.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

:nono:Yeah, thread derailed. Back to crickets chirping....


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Dirt Road said:


> :nono:Yeah, thread derailed. Back to crickets chirping....


Sorry Gary.. now about the bulbs mentioned by Flint; interesting link but doesn't say that anyone is interested in actually manufacturing the new tech. Tons of stuff gets discovered or improved upon that never makes it to market. Personally I'm still waiting for the zinc oxide nano-tech coatings to reach the market so our heat sinks / lamp heads can release heat 40% faster.

Okay back to the subject of OP; it is here yet...is it here yet.... ( tap, tap, tap...) cue the crickets.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Ok back on track.

After a ton of testing (they should have listened to me originally) they have figured out its too small (Did I mention i told them that?) and will increase the size to help dissipate more heat. I am glad they are testing this thoroughly.

As promised here is a VERY preliminary test video, which I believe was right after the case came back, so a rough build. I repeat this is an early test video and not the finished product by any means. The button on the back you see them testing in the beginning of the video and its functionality was my idea so if you love it great, it was meant to make the light more versatile for all types of riding and mounting locations, maybe limping home on a low battery or saving power to ride to the trailhead.

Enjoy the show, feedback welcome remembering its a rough prototype


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

What's with that slow strobe? Do people have use for that? I'm not into any strobe though so I can't really critique it.

Was that actually 0.9A we were seeing at 4.1V, so less than 4Watts max shown there right? I mean I know you said it has thermal problems at that size, but it should be able to crank up for a few seconds. Or is that just all they tried for for this demo? It's a prototype, ok.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

It's seems they are driving it from 4.1 as if they will have but aren't using a buck converter. I moved the rest of the thought to my next post.


Anyway, would it be right to guess first run lights are still a few months off?


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Thanks for the video. It's good to see something functional.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Yes, nice to see work on it. GJHS it took me a few edits to understand what's going on and the implications of your button, but now I have concerns and questions about its motivation.

The button to disable led might or might not be the most efficient way to reduce power *IF*you buck down to a fixed 4.2V (like they used) and then use either linear regulation or PWM. However a) It doesn't save THAT much power (*if any*) compared to regulating all three b) the power it does save is largely because that driver arrangement isn't the best anyway and c) you could save even more by keeping all three on and running them well driven at lower current. I'll explain, but basically I think what this button maybe does do is let you switch between optics combinations. I don't see it as useful for power control.

So, to explain, if you buck down to a fixed voltage of 4.1V then any regulation down from there is non ideally efficient. PWM runs leds at higher peak currents than needed which is inefficient for the led. Linear regulation burns off power resistively, and turning off one light, leaves the other two running higher (compared to dimming all three a little) which is non ideally efficient too. Which is best is not easily determined and depends on details, but I doubt disabling a light is saving much at all (compared to the other power reduction methods) even in that already non-ideal situation.

HOWEVER, what it does do, is force you to have independant control of each led which means you MUST use either linear or PWM after the buck. The truly most efficient way that beats all of this, is to do one single current controlled (not voltage) buck regulation of all three leds in parallel (or boost and series) and dim all three leds equally. They will then be running at the lowest peak current possible (peak equals average and with all three leds each running at less current than with 1 or 2 for same brightness), and with no resistive voltage burn off. Being able to selectively turn off leds makes this mode of regulation impossible so whatever it might gain is relative to a poor situation it already forced.

I don't know if anyone makes flashlight drivers that work this way, with microcontroller selectable current regulated buck or boost. It's absolutely certainly possible to do it with existing components though. Texas Ace and I have been discussing it in his driver thread at BLF. It's not top on his list though, especially since the lights he's working on don't require buck or boost (regulation is probably relatively the easy part). This one does. (because it's an odd number of leds and an even series pack)

Edit: actually you could do a voltage controlled buck driver also and still be able to drop out one led to cut its power. I just don't know why you would since it's not a great regulation method, so I left that option out. Maybe I shouldn't have. It's not a terribly stable regulation method but it works, it's efficient, and it does let you drop out one led or two for optics control (still not the efficient way to save power though compared to lowering voltage/current on all three, but it leaves the ability for both efficient reduction or optics control).


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I'm a bit confused by the video. At the start they turn the lamp on and start changing modes that looks like the old tri-clone driver......1 led ( middle )...2 led ( outside 2 )...3 led, one at a time for three modes. Not what I wanted to see. Then it looked like they entered another user interface with all LEDs on to change all modes. Then finally they had an extensive flash menu. Didn't help that they were talking in Chinese. I'm fine with a hidden flash menu but I don't want ( or wouldn't want ) no stinking 1-2-3 led menu.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Menus can change. I'd be much more worried about driver efficiency first. If people don't care about battery life.. efficiency also reduces heat. I should add, still good points though. It all has to come together eventually.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> I'm a bit confused by the video. At the start they turn the lamp on and start changing modes that looks like the old tri-clone driver......1 led ( middle )...2 led ( outside 2 )...3 led, one at a time for three modes. Not what I wanted to see. Then it looked like they entered another user interface with all LEDs on to change all modes. Then finally they had an extensive flash menu. Didn't help that they were talking in Chinese. I'm fine with a hidden flash menu but I don't want ( or wouldn't want ) no stinking 1-2-3 led menu.


Well it's good to see something working. Is it really too small? I thought this was approximately the size of the glowworm triple and the triple ituo light. This has to have more surface area than those lights. Someone who has those lights please speak up. This looks like a nice little light to me. I love all the heat conduction fins.

I'm also a bit confused by the video and what the function of the rear button is. Is it to change to different mode groups?

It looks like one mode group is the dreaded a one led on, then two on and finally three on. I don't recall anyone wanting that, and we talked the UI to death. It can be eliminated as far as I'm concerned. Kill it with fire. We want all three leds on at the same time. I don't think any of these people have ever ridden a bike at night. 
Edit: You meant it to be a limp home mode? That's not a bad idea, but it would probably be better to have all three leds at a moon-mode level, in my opinion.

It also looks like it's a double click to get to the first flash mode. That would be very bad. I double click to get from low to high all the time (bypassing medium). Maybe they pressed the rear button again, it's hard to tell. The flash mode should not be part of the regular mode rotation, they should be very hidden. Or they should be just their own mode group. Or just eliminate the flash modes altogether. Who needs it anyway. Then again the flash could be part of programming the light modes. Is it a signal of command accepted, or something similar?

Will this light function at the regular 7.4+ volts of a regular pack? I don't even know if my other lights function at 4V. It seems odd to me. They should be testing it at the regular voltage. Is there an indicator for the battery voltage in the color of the main button? It would be red at 4V (or the light would turn itself off). Also the light should get hot when it's on high and it's in still air. They should test it in front of a fan. Or better yet, let us test it.

I can see that there is a serious language barrier in getting these people to make the light we want. Just do the best you can GJHS. Is the light on it's way to you? Maybe we need to make diagrams of what we want.

They are going to sell a lot of these lights if they just listen to our input. But if they mess up the UI, or turn it into some sort of China commuter light it's going int the scrap heap along with the other garbage. No flash modes in the regular mode rotation. No OFF mode in the rotation.

This light has a lot of potential though. Two buttons could make for easy programming, or to switch mode groups, or to turn off the light with a press to hold.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

What I see is the rear button allowing you to choose between having 1 (center), 2 (sides), or all 3 LEDs on. Once you set how many you want on you then use the top button to change modes (L-M-H). I think I like this so long as it can be setup to be driven somewhat efficiently. What's the sense of running it like a double but burning nearly the same power from the battery pack as running it with all 3 LEDs on? 

I agree that the "hidden flash modes" accessed by double-click (at least that's what I think I saw) looks too easy to access. Maybe it should be a double-click from the rear button?

I too am confused why they're testing it from 4.1v and we're only seeing it driven up to .9A. (Maybe those are Chinese amps and need multiplied by 5?) 

AND what's the name on the top? I can't quite read it clearly, but it looks like "ForFlare". At first I thought it was "Thorfire". I need one of those fancy video editors you see on TV shows/movies where the viewer zooms in and "enhances" the video so the license plate goes from completely blurry to perfectly in focus!

Anyway, glad to see some testing!

-Garry


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Sorry cat I kind of missed some of your point. Yeah, I think everyone agrees, no single/double light modes. I'm just taking a step farther and saying after getting rid of that, I think it frees up better ways electronically to do the driver that save battery life or heat. Varider, the thought did cross my mind that maybe they don't even know this is supposed to be an 8.4V light. I'm not convinced how custom this is. Slightly inspired I guess. The Q8 is custom (but BLF is different).

If things are desired a certain way, better tell them clearly with a simple list. Do people care if it's boost or buck? (and thus serial or parallel) There are reasons to care. Do people care if regulation is done in the converter or with PWM after (not nearly as efficient in low modes as doing the regulation in the converter). I don't know, but don't expect the manufactures to guess right.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Flintrock, MTBR user's (for the most part) are much different than BLF users. For the most part MTBR users don't wax philosophic about driver details like efficiency or even whether or not a driver is buck or boost. Most of these users just want a light that works, and maybe with a certain tint and certain compatibilities. Most people here are not electronics geeks. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone here, just being honest. I myself only know enough to be dangerous and don't claim to be an expert. I think we'd all be glad to have a "driver expert" have some input on this and review the driver provided to us with the prototype. 

Oh, and also unlike BLF, MTBR won't pull in hundreds or thousands of "group buy sales". 

-Garry


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

I realize the flash modes are probably subject to change, so losing the SOS shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. 

The utility of the 123 button boils down to efficiency. Unless it's more efficient to run fewer LEDs at higher output (doubtful), it doesn't appear to be very useful. Being able to selectively use a combination of optics on the fly might be nice, but I'm not sure it justifies the additional trouble associated with adding the button to the design.

Back to the flash modes, I believe there should be at least a rudimentary mode for road use. It doesn't have to look like rave lighting, but something similar to how the Wiz20 cycles between Med-High Pulse on a 0.5-1 second interval. Randomizing the interval would be a nice touch.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm a road cyclist, although I end up on path a bunch recently, but I never use any blink. I'm also a driver and find it horribly difficult to focus on, figure out where it is, where it's going. But people like them It will probably need it.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Actually some people like one blink and one steady. But let's don't go there either. With lights this close together, might as well just pulse mid to high. I guess it will look almost the same.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

As of voltage used in this video. There might be driver at development stage without buck or boost part and they were just testing UI.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK here's my take in what I see so far:

That head should handle a fair bit over 2000 lumens no problem AT ALL. 2500 with xp-l v6 emitters. Based on the video with the low drive voltage and current and it's already having heat issues:

EPIC FAILURE, problem lies in the driver and probably internal thermal path.

Not running on 8.4v, FAIL. 4.2v systems are garbage if not in a purely self contained unit.

A ton of flash modes, better be hidden or HUGE FAIL.

Other UI set up (except flash), I like that. Good idea there GJHS! But get rid of the seizure inducing high speed flash. 

The current draw on the light, be lucky if that light is producing more than 1200 lumens in its current state. 

When I can push 2000 lumens out of a bt21 and not have heat issues, this head should have 0 issues with the same.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I agree with ledoman, I believe this was more a test of the UI and not so much a completed driver pushing full intended current. There's no way they would have built this for 4.2v pack use. 

And tig, where do get the idea that it's "having heat issues" in this video? I don't see that at all.

BTW- the idea of 1,2, or 3 LEDs on only really makes sense if you have different optics in use so that you're selecting throw, flood, or throw + flood.

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Heat issues was already mentioned above saying that the head was too small (GJHS post).

I do read back before posting 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> I'm a road cyclist, although I end up on path a bunch recently, but I never use any blink. I'm also a driver and find it horribly difficult to focus on, figure out where it is, where it's going. But people like them It will probably need it.


Agreed, which is why I'd prefer a much longer interval. A randomized pulse frequency should increase visibility on the road over a steady light, day or night.



Flintrock said:


> Actually some people like one blink and one steady. But let's don't go there either. With lights this close together, might as well just pulse mid to high. I guess it will look almost the same.


Yep.

I realize any blink features aren't of much use on the trail, but I don't think it would be wise to remove them from the design, as they are of use to road riders. Competition is stiff enough without marginalizing a market segment.

As far as programability goes, it's probably asking too much at this price point to allow basic end user programming via the USB charging port, but that would end a lot of concerns about controls & modes. Giving users three or four click access to modes that they could select and program to those inputs would be very nice. If that's too complicated, allow (tedious) programming through the on-light button(s), but allow users to determine click assignments and output. Something simple like this would work well for me.

1-click: on X% 
2-clicks: pulse mode between X% and X% 
3-clicks: low power X% (limp mode)
4-clicks: immediate off


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

tigris99 said:


> Heat issues was already mentioned above saying that the head was too small (GJHS post).
> 
> I do read back before posting


Oh, I saw that post by GJHS too, but your post came across as coming from that video test. There can't be any heat issues at 0.9A per LED on this light - that would be rediculous.

-Garry


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I knew video would leave a bunch of questions and since it was so basic and early on, it was a simple test. I posted it to show that things are moving along and to start seeing some features. So ya about that: the button on the back was my idea to make the light more versatile since it will be for all types of riding. I am hoping that you can drop it down to one led (spot) for helmet use, road use, or to save power if needed. Lets face it you don't need a triple for road rides, you can however step up the power if you want to swap bikes and hit the trail. It is not part of the normal UI and if untouched affects nothing. It can be removed if it proves not effective in the prototype we in this forum test.

Heat dispersion is priority on this light and has a feature that I can't talk about. I don't think the light will grow much though I am glad they are taking our needs seriously. i wish I had more answers. Ask any question that you have and I will try to get the answer.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> I'm a road cyclist, although I end up on path a bunch recently, but I never use any blink. I'm also a driver and find it horribly difficult to focus on, figure out where it is, where it's going. But people like them It will probably need it.





GJHS said:


> I knew video would leave a bunch of questions and since it was so basic and early on, it was a simple test. I posted it to show that things are moving along and to start seeing some features. So ya about that: the button on the back was my idea to make the light more versatile since it will be for all types of riding. I am hoping that you can drop it down to one led (spot) for helmet use, road use, or to save power if needed. Lets face it you don't need a triple for road rides, you can however step up the power if you want to swap bikes and hit the trail. It is not part of the normal UI and if untouched affects nothing. It can be removed if it proves not effective in the prototype we in this forum test.
> 
> Heat dispersion is priority on this light and has a feature that I can't talk about. I don't think the light will grow much though I am glad they are taking our needs seriously. i wish I had more answers. Ask any question that you have and I will try to get the answer.


I get the utility of the rear button in theory, but if the end result is less efficient use of available power over just dimming the trio of LEDs, I don't see the point. Better to use a simple, removable bezel and commonly available optics if the goal is to adjust throw & spill, IMO. A simple, snap-on hood might also aid in defining the beam for road use, and should be relatively easy to incorporate in the design.

OTOH, if the rear button could be used for main power, leaving the top for mode selection & dimming control, that might be useful. Using it for two-button programming might also be beneficial. The cost the rear button adds to the design might also be a determining factor.

Thanks again for keeping the information flowing both ways, and for sticking with the project.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

GJHS said:


> It is not part of the normal UI and if untouched affects nothing. It can be removed if it proves not effective in the prototype we in this forum test.
> 
> .


This may not be true though. It may impact the overall driver scheme, but that's not being discussed anyway in detail, so.

And you don't neeeeed a tripple for road use, but it's better than a single in many ways (if you're carrying them anyway). It's more effecient, and... a less intense more spread out source of light is less blinding and easier to focus on/locate for a vechicle driver. Blinding people is NOT about lumen output or even beam spread, it's about spot intensity.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you guys, but us actually roadies can go FAST and sometimes on dark uneven roads. But those aren't the times you were talking about. You don't always need it.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

garrybunk said:


> There can't be any heat issues at 0.9A per LED on this light - that would be rediculous.
> 
> -Garry


Yes.



tigris99 said:


> The current draw on the light, be lucky if that light is producing more than 1200 lumens in its current state.


That's not luck, that's a miracle. We saw 4W. 1200 is impossible. 600 is reasonable. But that wasn't heat stopping it. Maybe a driver problem.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> Also, I don't know about the rest of you guys, but us actually roadies can go FAST and sometimes on dark uneven roads.


Until I have a personal force field, I'll pass on that.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Active feedback on PWM to current-regulate with FET? | BudgetLightForum.com

basically what easyb found there is efficiency of leds goes up if they are dimmed with linear regulation, but stays kind of constant if they are dimmed with PWM. That's because PWM doesn't actually dim and doesn't take full advantage of the higher efficiency the led gets at low current (worse it may be using 5A). That efficiency curve is not only about heat. I suspect this driver is using PWM though (I think you can see the interference in the video), because it's the simplest "drop-in" way to dim.

The best solution though is none of the above.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> Until I have a personal force field, I'll pass on that.


It's all relative. I've seen the videos you mtb guys post. Of course I ride slower at night, but the more light I have, the less slower I have to ride. Obviously it helps to know the roads too.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Anyway, I suspect we won't see a mode-adjustable voltage converter. I suspect voltage conversion will be separated from mode control. I think there is post-conversion PWM in the design now and that will probably remain. And maybe that really does need to be that way. Maybe designing an adjustable-regulation converter is too expensive/difficult/non-standard for now.

In which case there is nothing lost in efficiency by turning off LED's (the loss is already locked in). My real point was just that it doesn't gain the power control claimed it either. You can still get as good of a reduction by dimming all three and you have three less individually less intense (less blinding) light sources, although being so close together, maybe not not much less blinding. If this is the state of things though, the option to turn off leds is not costing anything other than a few switches/FETS. It just isn't saving anything either.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't think we'd simply want to dim 3 LEDs. We would want to drive 1 or 2 with the same total output that had been consumed by all 3. This still gives you bright light with just a change in beam pattern (approx.). i.e. 1 LED driven at 1.5A is entirely different from 3 LEDs driven at 0.5A each. 

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have a nice road bike now and I role at the same speeds night or day. Just have a proper light that gives me what little warning I need to move or lay on the brakes. If you can blast mtbing trails at speed after dark, 1200-1400 lumens with right beam is plenty.

Last night I rode my "newly added to night riding options" trails. Been camping all weekend and took all 3 bikes. 29er hasn't left my van. Went out and set new PR's on my fat bike well after dark trying to keep up with a friend on his Fuel EX 9. On my 29er no way I would have been comfortable pushing those speeds on those trails at night. Found my limiting factor wasn't light set up, it was confidence in me and my bike.

Back on topic:

That blf thread has little to do with this situation. This is because the small voltage difference between power input and forward voltage of the LEDS. A standard linear driver does NOT step down voltage as part of a system operation. It is resistor based and unless voltages are close together (input and system requirement) a linear driver creates insane amounts of heat. All extra input watts are shed as heat. So in a flashlight that has a 4.2v input, 3v forward voltage for led and small requirement for the driver, the driver resistance creates the voltage sage needed not to overvolt the emitters. In a bike light you end up with 2-3-4x the voltage difference. So that many more watts is being turned to heat. Resistance = heat

So for a bike light a full inductor buck converter using PWM regulation is MUCH MUCH more efficient (except for piss poor Chinese crap) than a linear driver.

The efficiency massively over compensates for the minor gain in linear led control vs PWM. So PWM is the choice of even the best. Even the best linear drivers can't touch the efficiency of PWM regulation, especially at matching price points. Unless voltage requirement of the system is very close to input voltage. Then during a run cycle of a battery pack you would see a vet narrow window where linear would be measurably more efficient than PWM.

Both linear and PWM regulate currently the whether it's for thermal control or mode control, no difference.

I have messed with one set of lights that have linear drivers (xeccon z10 and z11) and you couldn't pay me to ride with any light except a single cell flashlight that uses linear driver. HEAT ISSUES FROM HELL. You get a narrow window shortly before the light drops out of regulation that the driver is the cooking when you have a less than 6v system requirement and dumping 8v in. Which could explain the heat issue with this custom light, someone that doesn't have much of any understanding of led driver systems decided a linear driver was a good idea. Otherwise a very poorly done, low efficency, PWM buck driver that is generating far more heat that it should be.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> I have a nice road bike now and I role at the same speeds night or day.


Me too mostly, which is fast either way, but of course I slow down when neeeded.



> That blf thread has little to do with this situation.


Yes and no. I'm very well aware of the differences.



> This is because the small voltage difference between power input and forward voltage of the LEDS. A standard linear driver does NOT step down voltage as part of a system operation. It is resistor based and unless voltages are close together (input and system requirement) a linear driver creates insane amounts of heat. All extra input watts are shed as heat. So in a flashlight that has a 4.2v input, 3v forward voltage for led and small requirement for the driver, the driver resistance creates the voltage sage needed not to overvolt the emitters. In a bike light you end up with 2-3-4x the voltage difference. So that many more watts is being turned to heat. Resistance = heat
> 
> So for a bike light a full inductor buck converter using PWM regulation is MUCH MUCH more efficient (except for piss poor Chinese crap) than a linear driver.


This all depends drastically on how it's done. If you have a buck regulator that is is chranking out 4.1 (or 4.2 or whatever) volts, fixed, then all you've done is bucked the battery down to being like a single cell and you have the same issues all over again. It looks VERY much like this is what they are heading toward, because they are testing with 4.1 Vinn, with mode control AFTER that. I guess they will just slap in a fixed-voltage buck convert on top. You're back to being just like the single cell situation.

Furthermore In ANY situation where PWM means the LED sees pulsing current, that is NOT efficient. You are running the LED at a higher current than it needs to be, and that's not efficient period, regardless how you got there, and the data in that thread proves that. It proves (and this is why you may be fooled) that the efficiency with PWM does not change as you dim. Why, because it's starts out bad. It runs the led at high current always, possibly higher than you EVER need it if done poorly enough. Even with resistive losses that linear regulator is able to beat it at low current. This isn't to say linear regulation is good. It just proves how bad PWM to the LED is.

If though by "PWM" you mean you are modulating the buck regulator, pre-capacitor, then ABSOLUTELY YES this is the way to go. this is NOT the same either as just slapping a capacitor on the output of a PWM FET. It's better. The inductor makes it more efficient. This is almost certainly not what's going on in that video, unless it's a voltage regulated adjustable output buck, presently bucking from 4.1 V down to around 3.1 (weird but would explain the low output) or unless they have 3 buck converters. You can't just pull one led out of a current regulated buck and see the current drop like that. It's current regulated after all.

You can buy plenty of little current regulatable, current adjustable, buck converters on aliexpress for $10 that do exactly this. But you need a custom layout for a flashlight and that is aparetly difficult because of keeping inductive pickup low by minimizing sizes and optimizing position of various loops in the layout.(let's say it requires a pro anyway, at least someone who can use a scope well). The TI documentation spells out this difficulty.

As far as linear, of course you shouldn't use it to get from 8.4 to 3.something. That's insane. If you're crippling yourself with a cosntant 4.1V supply though, then it appears to be better for low modes than PWM is.

The other question though is should it be boost instead? This guarantees equal current through each LED.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Another note, the thermal management "secret" for the driver only has limited options, all of which have been done or are being done prior to this build.

First is how it activates. Either hard step down (with or without return to prior output) or thermal management that is "step less" (active) decreasing or increasing outputs based on the head temperature.

Next is thermistor location. 

-On driver (simplest and cheapest, plenty effective at protecting the system but in poor thermal path designs leds can overheat)

- remotely mounted for direct thermal reading from the case. In a properly designed light with proper thermal path for leds and driver, get good reaction time due to changes in air flow and ambient temps. Not seen a production light with this yet as execution is difficult to say the least.

-Remotely mounting it to the emitters pcb. Again with good thermal path this will give real time readings of the emitters, this being the hottest area of the entire system. Regulating directly here keeps any part of the light from overheating. Even with a poor thermal path to case like most Chinese lights.

So nothing to hide there. Option 3 now exists in production lights from one company I know for sure and is showing up in production "universal" emitter mcpcbs for multiple emitter pcbs like quad units.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

cross posted.. my reply to your driver points is on the last page now.

Anyway, personally I'd hate to see a need for thermistor control in a 20W light. It should be able to just work at 20W, even sitting still, without looking like you've got loose battery connections bouncing your brightness all over the place. This should be a failsafe at worse or for a turbo mode. If this thing can't handle 20W in the summer sitting still, it's not my light. But I don't need a helmet mount, so that gives me more room to be demanding about thermal regulation.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Seems your missing A LOT OF INFO in led light design. The size of the light needed to do what you want would be crazy by today's standards. Every decent bike light in existence has a thermistor of the driver for thermal protection except self contained units with low wattage/ lumens output. A flashlight to hold 20W of power and not cook things in the summer would be rather large.

Gotta get out of the flashlight mentality of blf. Flashlights are self contained units and no flashlight this size can handle 20w continously without frying something eventually, that's why they use turbo timers.

And the bouncing of output doesnt happen at all. In an active management system you'll never notice till you sit stopped and it cuts power then brightens back up when you start riding again. Worst case is it steps down to a lower mode and you have to manually push the mode switch again to return to previous output level.

I know there are some similarities between flashlights and bike lights but there's some massive differences that make flashlight knowledge and design totally useless here. One is being of decent weight and size. 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS said:


> Heat dispersion is priority on this light and has a feature that I can't talk about. I don't think the light will grow much though I am glad they are taking our needs seriously. i wish I had more answers. Ask any question that you have and I will try to get the answer.


I have two questions. Is there a solid wall behind the leds? Do they seem to get what we want or are we just banging our heads against the wall.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Well thanks for trying (again) to dismiss me as is if anything I know is irrelevant. Bull. Either argue facts or don't. I don't need the other nonsense commentary and it's unbecoming for you. 

By all means I might be a little off to hope a light that fits comfortably on a helmet(a feature I don't care about) can do this. Keep your thermistor. But if this light can't do 20W reliably at least when moving, it won't be my light. Your idea of fairly large and mine might not be the same. The XP-3 does seem able to pull off 2300 lumens continuous (you were following it, was that tested in a breeze?). That has to be about 20W. For 10W I can run my battery pack to a single cell pocket light and at least come close. I'm not going to bother with much else if I can't get a significant improvement, reliably. If I was looking for a helmet light, that might be different.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

the funny thing is tigris in the end we're actually agreeing about the driver method. You need a controlled buck regulator. The difference is your view of the linguistics is dangerous. A controlled buck uses something like PWM(internally not through the led), but the words buck + PWM don't equal a controlled buck. they can also equal a fixed voltage... and then normal single-cell style PWM of the actual led current. When someone tells me a driver is PWM I assume it means it's pulsing the actual current to the LED. Anyway this seems to be exactly what we saw in the video. In fact I'd bet it's EXACTLY what we saw. That big white box (the bench supply) was likely a buck converter inside (not that it matters). It was putting out 4.1V fixed voltage, mimicking a full single cell light. The driver then did PWM just as it would with 4.1 V of battery on it, a configuration you agree is not good. It might not be so bad if at least it filtered that PWM before sending to the led. Maybe it did. That's still less than perfect, but maybe pretty close.

Mode control running off fixed 4.1V is not good. You said it, I said, we agree! 

Controlled bucking... not bucking plus control. Big bucking difference. I don't believe this light will have it.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...-l2-u3-bike-light-1002379-2.html#post12482003

Check out around posts 75 and 76... he's ggetting 24 watts (tailcap, ok) for half an hour, on a bench. Ok I see he does have a fan and it does throttle down without some airflow.

WIZ20 remained on 99% for 65 minutes, cooling fan use stated as being only between testing. It's not quite 20W, I guess.

ITUO Wiz20 1500 lumens, twin XM-L2-U3 bike light « Cycle Seahaven


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I was just trying to keep it simplistic was all. 

And the link you posted was to lights I have everything they've made including their prototypes (xp4 and tail light) as I do reviews on them. They have full active thermal Management with a remotely located thermistor on the mcpcbs. All of their xp series lights are built like that. Without air flow they will step down even when they make some of the most efficient production drivers I've ever seen, don't push the emitters to full 3A and have a lot of surface area. But like all Hugh output bike lights, still need air flow and have less surface area and mass compared to an equal output flashlight.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Fair enough. The wiz 20 gets 12 W (from battery, based on run-time, I guess a little more initially based on output) and can sustain that without wind. that tells me 20 is probably not astronomically difficult, just that the lights are optimized to reduce size. I'd worry about hot weather though. I don't like things engineered to barely work especially when the tradeoff (weight) isn't important for my needs), but it may be what I settle for.


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

Interesting video. But what is it about the strobe modes. When will we get rid of them. And this light will never be a "road" light because it blinds! Compare with your car. Is it a good idea to cycle through high-low-off-strobe in your car??? On the highway???
A good light for the road should give a lot of light and it should not blind! Like the low beam in your car. So, please, get rid of all the strobe modes ones and forever. Hate them.

It is ok for the police, ambulances, fire fighters to "strobe" if they need clear way, not for cyclists.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

I totally agree: strobe & off must be eliminated from standard sequence of mode selection.


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

-Archie- said:


> I totally agree: strobe & off must be eliminated from standard sequence of mode selection.


Yes. But it would be better if there were no strobe modes at all, because people misuse strobe modes in traffic.

Still looking forward to what will come out of this initiative! Keep up the great work GJHS.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

I think, strobe is nice feature in case of emergency, but access to it should be limited by long press or something like that, to prevent accidental activation.

IIRC, I myself used powerful strobe two times: once it was partially closed highway, with heavy traffic in both directions temporarily routed to one side of road - and there was incredibly dense fog, so visibility range was limited to several meters at best. Second time - on club nightride arranged for beginners, I've waited for some people at the crossroad of trails in deep forest, and successfully used strobe as a "lighthouse" for them.

Of course, such occasions are rare - but I'd prefer to be prepared for any possible cases...


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

About the thermal issues:

I think I understand what Flint was saying and it is something that I've been concerned with as well. I'm not sure I like the idea of incremental power management...BUT...that said it all depends on what temperature it's set to kick in at. I know you have to have thermal regulation because without some method of controlling the heat of the lamp the LED's will fry. That's just a fact about LED's that you can't ignore. We can sit here and fret over methods of thermal control but we can't ignore the laws of thermodynamics. Perhaps one day there will be materials produced that sheds heat like plastic repels water. When that happens we'll have some really bright/small lights with little to no loss of output due to heat. Right now though, that day isn't here....yet. I don't think I own one lamp that doesn't get really hot after 10-15 minutes of running at it's maximum output, even if I'm moving at a good rate. That said, none of them have cut out on me as long as I'm moving. The only lamp I ever had cut out on me was one of the Gemini's and that only because I was running it on high while stopped...something that I really have only done once and yes it was with the Gemini. 

So far I've been pleased with my ITUO XP3 in how it handles heat. Now maybe, just MAYBE this yet un-named interestingly finned lamp will perform well when at the higher output levels. Right now though we know little to nothing. I love the look of the light head so I'm hopeful that the people who are making it are going to listen to GJHS and take his recommendations seriously.


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## Whitedog1 (Feb 3, 2009)

nice to see Progress here!
Hopefully we will find same facts for the manufacturer to improve and finalize the prototype!


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

It's been stated that the programming is far from finalized, so I wouldn't be too concerned that the SOS mode will have to be cycled through in normal operation, or any of the other programmable behavior shown in the video.

I don't know why some of you are so dead set against any kind of strobe mode. It does serve a purpose on the road, and if implemented properly, it doesn't turn into a motorist blinding flicker fest.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

So actually tigris and all, educate me here. In the XP3 thread (I think) there was discussion about lights throttling at 150 or 130. I'm not sure if that was F or C. Tigris you, if I understood right said the emitter will never see 85C anyway (so I guess maybe that was F). Well I may have misinterpretted and it doesn't matter, but the question is what is the limiting factor that determines the heat threshold? Is it damage to the led? Shortening of life? (how much? 1 solid year of 24h/day run time with 20% degredation is still ok with me) Is it just about making the thing not scalding. All of the above I guess have their merits but which one is the threshold for these power downs? If I rewire this light and force 3A through each led for 2 hours in 33C weather without forced air flow (thermal convection only), what exactly will happen? 

So I checked the spec sheet, 150C max, (and about 20% output drop relative to 75C).


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> It's been stated that the programming is far from finalized, so I wouldn't be too concerned that the SOS mode will have to be cycled through in normal operation, or any of the other behavior shown in the video.
> 
> I don't know why some of you are so dead set against any kind of strobe mode. It does serve a purpose on the road, and if implemented properly, it doesn't turn into a motorist blinding flicker fest.


I say keep the strobe, but in a hard to reach menu as most suggest. As for other "behavior" well some of it points toward driver architecture choices not just programming. But with all the secrets, I don't that will be open for discussion in any detail anyway.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> I say keep the strobe, but in a hard to reach menu as most suggest. As for other "behavior" well some of it points toward driver architecture choices not just programming. But with all the secrets, I don't that will be open for discussion in any detail anyway.


Yeah, I qualified that as "programmable behavior" just before you quoted me. 

As long as "hard to reach" means something like a 2 second button hold, that'd work. I wouldn't want it to look like a Nintendo cheat code, though. I'd still like to see something more customizable, as I suggested earlier.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Maybe the "secret" is some form of active cooling buried inside. I know a fan has been done before, but it's rare. I guess we'll see eventually.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I'd like to see how that's been done. I thought about the idea, but it's difficult to do it well and not expose the fan motor to the elements isn't it? And that would be one tiny fan. Honestly I'd like a bike light to be re-purposable as a work light, which I think is reasonable. That doesn't work if the thing is built as small as possible to just work but only when moving.

It's frustrating though. High power flashlights weigh 500g (nad can hit far over 20 watts peak). Bike lights weigh 110g. I suspect at 200g you can get 20W stationary with no throttling. But that would be a handlebar only light maybe (not helmet), so gain one use lose another I suppose.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

varider said:


> I have two questions. Is there a solid wall behind the leds? Do they seem to get what we want or are we just banging our heads against the wall.


Yes and yes. The delay, lack of updated info, not to mention a very preliminary build video has caused a bit of discussion. All is well and remember this will be tested by us before it is finalized so changes will be made by our testing. Right now they are testing the light we asked for, with the components we requested to make sure it works well.

I hate the wait too, though would prefer they don't just rush it out. I wish they would let us test it as well, though they want to get it perfect first.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

flat said:


> Maybe the "secret" is some form of active cooling buried inside. I know a fan has been done before, but it's rare. I guess we'll see eventually.


"When I clap my hands three times you will wake up" *clap*clap*clap*!....Time to wake up, it's not going to have active cooling... We have a small lamp with fins completely around the lamp, that will have to do. @ Flintrock; It's not going to function as a standing work lamp unless you are using lower output. Personally I'm hoping the lamp produces about 2200 lumen when on high.

Hopefully the "Flash" functions will be well hidden. I can see the use for maybe three flash functions; fast flash ( but not strobe ), slow flash (1 every 2-3 sec. ) and steady on with momentary pulse. Those functions would work well for day time ( road ) awareness. High frequency strobe and SOS, they need to get rid of those.


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## Appel (Dec 10, 2014)

flat said:


> I don't know why some of you are so dead set against any kind of strobe mode. It does serve a purpose on the road,


No, it does not serve any purpose on the road. Here in the Stockholm (Sweden) bike community we call cyclists with strobe lights "blinkretards"....

Regarding the driver it must be a good thing if the light can give as much light as possible useing as little battery power as possible producing as little heat as possible...


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Appel said:


> No, it does not serve any purpose on the road. Here in the Stockholm (Sweden) bike community we call cyclists with strobe lights "blinkretards"....


Haha


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Appel said:


> No, it does not serve any purpose on the road. Here in the Stockholm (Sweden) bike community we call cyclists with strobe lights "blinkretards"....


Or maybe it does serve a purpose, but you & I are talking about different things. I doubt one single light pulse every 0.5-1 seconds (as I've mentioned) is in use by your Swedish "blinkretards". I don't care for seizure inducing, strobing lights on the road, either (as I've mentioned).

Btw, I'd go with "blinktards"; rolls off the tongue better.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Cat-man-do said:


> "When I clap my hands three times you will wake up" *clap*clap*clap*!....Time to wake up, it's not going to have active cooling... We have a small lamp with fins completely around the lamp, that will have to do. @ Flintrock; It's not going to function as a standing work lamp unless you are using lower output. Personally I'm hoping the lamp produces about 2200 lumen when on high.
> 
> Hopefully the "Flash" functions will be well hidden. I can see the use for maybe three flash functions; fast flash ( but not strobe ), slow flash (1 every 2-3 sec. ) and steady on with momentary pulse. Those functions would work well for day time ( road ) awareness. High frequency strobe and SOS, they need to get rid of those.


I was just throwing the fan out there. It could have a heat pipe, too. 

Yes, that's the kind of strobe/pulse/blink/momentarily increased intensity functionality I'd like to see, even if it's banned in Sweden.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Flintrock said:


> So actually tigris and all, educate me here. In the XP3 thread (I think) there was discussion about lights throttling at 150 or 130. I'm not sure if that was F or C. Tigris you, if I understood right said the emitter will never see 85C anyway (so I guess maybe that was F). Well I may have misinterpretted and it doesn't matter, but the question is what is the limiting factor that determines the heat threshold? Is it damage to the led? Shortening of life? (how much? 1 solid year of 24h/day run time with 20% degredation is still ok with me) Is it just about making the thing not scalding. All of the above I guess have their merits but which one is the threshold for these power downs? If I rewire this light and force 3A through each led for 2 hours in 33C weather without forced air flow (thermal convection only), what exactly will happen?
> 
> So I checked the spec sheet, 150C max, (and about 20% output drop relative to 75C).


Isn't one of the main issues that without thermal control on a light that gets very hot the emitter will desolder itself from the pcb? I've heard of cases of this happening and I think I did it once too. I know I accidentally dedomed an LED by trying to swap optics after running an LED w/optic hot during testing. I guess next would come component damage due to heat (I don't Know though, maybe those components are rated way above what a light would produce anyway).

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Flintrock said:


> So actually tigris and all, educate me here. In the XP3 thread (I think) there was discussion about lights throttling at 150 or 130. I'm not sure if that was F or C. Tigris you, if I understood right said the emitter will never see 85C anyway (so I guess maybe that was F). Well I may have misinterpretted and it doesn't matter, but the question is what is the limiting factor that determines the heat threshold? Is it damage to the led? Shortening of life? (how much? 1 solid year of 24h/day run time with 20% degredation is still ok with me) Is it just about making the thing not scalding. All of the above I guess have their merits but which one is the threshold for these power downs? If I rewire this light and force 3A through each led for 2 hours in 33C weather without forced air flow (thermal convection only), what exactly will happen?
> 
> So I checked the spec sheet, 150C max, (and about 20% output drop relative to 75C).


To clarify 150F is when I typically see thermal protection activate on bike lights. 130F was when I noticed lux readings fluctuate up and down some on the XP3. Readings are light case temps.
Mole


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

So I'm not overwhelming in awe at the detail of understanding that seems to exist about these thermal issues. That's not a criticsm. Ok, there's some experience with previous lights and what they do.

150F is 65C. Desoldering? at <2A? I mean ok, it was me questioning if we're talking C of F, but yes, that puts it in perspective, thanks. Desoldering happens around 190C. Maybe at 6 A. But two? Really? Maybe my intuition is way off but I can't think we're talking about anything near that. I think Mole's statement is right, the scale of the issue here is 150F not C, (edit: maybe my intuition IS off, I missed where he said it's case temp).

Yes, at 65 C you can have according to spec and experiences _little _dimming. From 25 to 150 C you get 30% dimming almost linearly. At one 150F you're surely nowhere near the point where output decreases with increasing current, nor increases with decreasing current, and that means that yes, heat might cause fluctuation( downward), but throttling will cause more. In fact I don't think you can ever get turnover from temperature alone, you need the Auger or whatever effects too, so actual high amps.

So, the question is what is the LED temps are being reached. Personally for bar mounted, I don't find 150F so scary, even as case temp.

So, I'd like to know if I rip out the driver, and push 2A per led steady through this thing on my handlebars what kind of problems will actually happen?

2A isn't so huge. 150F for electronics isn't that big of deal. But how much more is the LED?

How hot will get if it's allowed to just sit? I'm willing to burn out a few LED's trying for science (and I've got a controlled supply in the mail).

If we're saying there's a thermal "problem", it might just help to know what the problem really is and when we need to worry about and why. Different applications have different needs.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Sorry I missed where this is light case reading. So the question still is, what kind of LED temps is this hitting?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Flintrock said:


> .......A 150F limit seems a very austere to me.


Skin contact with a 150F light will give you a first degree burn with just a few seconds of contact. 150F is as hot as I'd want a light on my bike to ever be and preferably 20-30 degrees cooler. I had a little crash once where the disc brake rotor contacted my leg for a couple seconds before getting the bike off me. I have no way to tell how hot the rotor was, but it took a couple weeks for the burn to heal. No desire to add a third potential burn source on the bike if possible.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Vancbiker said:


> Skin contact with a 150F light will give you a first degree burn with just a few seconds of contact. 150F is as hot as I'd want a light on my bike to ever be and preferably 20-30 degrees cooler. I had a little crash once where the disc brake rotor contacted my leg for a couple seconds before getting the bike off me. I have no way to tell how hot the rotor was, but it took a couple weeks for the burn to heal. No desire to add a third potential burn source on the bike if possible.


If that's your feeling that's fine (maybe smart even). I'd like to know what can actually be done. Yes.. a few (maybe 10, 15) seconds of firmly pressed contact might make a small 1st degree burn at 150. Why you wouldn't move, I have no idea. I did originally think this meant LED temp (edited above, and austerity statement now pending understanding of LED temp)... but still, I don't find 150F case temp so scary. Mount it in front of your bars. You should feel my halogen. I've never been burned by it though. 150 is maybe high enough for a helmet though, and maybe high enough for an un-modded commercial portable device.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Most people just wanted a cheap version of the Gloworm XS, or a better version of the Solarstorm X3. We aren't trying to improve the state of the art with this light.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

. . . all the while keeping it budget friendly.

-Garry


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Sure, that's reasonable ok. I'd just like to understand the real reasons for the limits though to know how it can be pushed.. not necessarily by the manufacturers, but by modders. Work lights can be hot.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Flintrock said:


> Sure, that's reasonable ok. I'd just like to understand the real reasons for the limits though to know how it can be pushed.. not necessarily by the manufacturers, but by modders. Work lights can be hot.


We don't even have the light yet!

I think you and the other modders will be able to answer that once you actually get the thing in your hands.

We have enough diverging topics in the last two pages to start multiple threads. For example
1) Best drivers for a three led light
2) How hard can you push a light before it fries itself
etc

I want people who have been interested in a high quality cheap light to come on here and discuss what we know about the light so far, i.e the UI, inclusion of flash modes etc. I don't want people to get lost in a super technical discussion about led light design in general. Just start some new threads on those topics.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I think understanding the thermal performance and getting the most out of the batteries is pretty basic. I guess the discussion of "custom " was supposed be we say "good thermal performance please" and "get us good run time" and "I want one in green". 

How do we discuss the usefulness of single led modes and why they should or shouldn't be desirable for power saving without talking about technicalities of power saving alternatives, and the possible power-related implications of the limitations it puts on driver design choices? How do we discuss how THIS light is being driven and why we do or don't like it without discussing the right way to drive lights? Wait... I get it... we don't. Ok. Mode programming can be changed AFTER first having a fundamentally good light, with a fundamentally good driver design. Isn't that kind of what GJHS said too? Although I pointed out one entanglement between the two in regards to 1/2 led modes.

So, can they make one in green?


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

I would just like to see a budget friendly, and durable light that puts out a real 2000 to 2200 lumens. It would be great if it had interchangable optics, and programmable modes, but I could do without blinky, and being to run one two or three lights. Again

1) DURABLE
2) BUDGET FRIENDLY
3)2000 TO 2200 LUMENS
4) NO STROBE, OR HIDDEN STROBE


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

No offense ironbrewerer, this comment is not directed at you. But basically those are the obvious specs with only #4 being somewhat debatable and in the end whether it's no strobe or hidden being up to whoever decides (that's true!).

I mean i could say I want 4000 lumens, < 70g $20 and a gps included, but it obviously won't happen. I could say I want one that isn't durable and is very expensive. Again.. your comment is great; my comment is directed at varider. Is this and UI the end of what we can discuss? ... and color.


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Sorry Flintrock, but 99% of the people want a dependable, budget friendly product. I don't care what flux capacitor it has to have to do that. Its a mountain bike forum. I'm not going to ride trails with a strobe. I never ride with less than 2 light sources, so 2000 to 2200 Lumes, on both would be plenty. I would like to have 3 hours run time, running 10% of that time on high. Most of my riding is on slower trails, with some fast downhills thrown in. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

I think its a big ask to get a durable, and budget friendly light!

I think its best to keep it simple to be able to get this.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

there's a ton of budget friendly lights out there. Compared to what most spend on their bikes, a budget friendly 2000+ lumens falls into $200 range. I know at least 50% or more of the people asking for "budget friendly" have way more money in their cycling budget than I do. And expecting so much while willing ot spend so little things have to be sacrificed. 

#1 thats relative. durable compared to other cheap crap chinese lights then yes. As good as lights in the $150+ range, not going to happen. High grade components cost money, better you want, the more they cost, so more the light costs

#2 thats the goal but each persons budget is different. With everything I know now: cheap crap chinese junk off amazon and ebay etc isnt worth the effort 95% of the time. just throwing money away. Big branded overly high priced stuff is worse than the mid priced, less known brands. Less performance, higher cost.

#3 that shouldnt be an issue here but something got messed up somewhere cause this light head should be able to handle it no problem but it cannot. Which means either they are going for higher lumens which is a bad idea, durability will go in the trash trying to push that much power on cheap drivers or they failed horribly in driver efficiency. Im betting the first option, trying to push too much power through as its not hard to make a decent driver these days unless they made the mistake of trying to go linear. Which we dont think they did.

#4 some people want it so it will be there, hopefully hidden (dont think GJHS will tolerate anything less lol)

everything else you want and if you want your #1 to be properly done, then have to pay for it. Everything is ALWAYS a trade off. Cheap means lower grade parts, lack of warranty and support etc. Your requests exist at top notch levels for far less than the big name brands but not at cheap chinese prices, because the 2 cant happen in the same light. This custom light will be better than most cheap stuff, but dont expect miracles or it to hold up to hard core useage for years to come.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Since most of us were buying Yinding dual led lights for about $35, which has been a great light, it didn't seem to be too unreasonable to get a light with a third led for around $50.

That was the genesis of this project. That's it, nothing more. We added a few desires to our wish list, better mount than the usual rubber band, switchable optics, removing flash and OFF from the mode rotation, better heat sinking, and perhaps a simple programmable driver.

The goal of getting a third led was to get a brighter light than the usual dual led Yinding or Solarstorm X2, i.e an evolution in the cheap light. We are not designing this light from the ground up, we are requesting a light be made with some simple specifications.

Since the Chinese manufacturers seem incapable of doing this on their own, GJHS took it upon himself to try to get it done with the help of Gearbest. A year and half later we finally have a prototype, that's how difficult getting this done has been.

*GJHS * can you get them to take the light apart and take a picture of internal heat sinking surface (the led wall). I can't see how this light is having heat problems with all that external surface area. The problem must be in conducting the heat from the led board to the inside of the case. It's either too thin, or there is a large hole behind the led board (aka Solarstorm design)


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Flintrock said:


> If that's your feeling that's fine (maybe smart even). I'd like to know what can actually be done. Yes.. a few (maybe 10, 15) seconds of firmly pressed contact might make a small 1st degree burn at 150. Why you wouldn't move, I have no idea. I did originally think this meant LED temp (edited above, and austerity statement now pending understanding of LED temp)... but still, I don't find 150F case temp so scary. Mount it in front of your bars. You should feel my halogen. I've never been burned by it though. 150 is maybe high enough for a helmet though, and maybe high enough for an un-modded commercial portable device.


After all this talk of 150°F being ( or not being ) unbearably hot to the touch, I just had to do a test. Test equipment: one fry pan, one infrared thermometer, gas stove and one CAtman finger. The result > ....*Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!*....and that was just at 137°F. Of course some people have thicker skin. Sorry, not willing to go to 150. My opinion is that doing so would result in an instant blister. *cough*...Now Flint if you think you can handle 150°F then I'm skipping the double-dog-dare and going straight to the triple-dog-dare. :devil: :arf:

Getting back on subject; The GB folk need to shake a leg. This is taking way too long. By the time they get this thing figured out I'm afraid the tech they're using will become obsolete and/or people will lose interest.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Cat-man-do said:


> After all this talk of 150°F being ( or not being ) unbearably hot to the touch, I just had to do a test. Test equipment: one fry pan, one infrared thermometer, gas stove and one CAtman finger. The result > ....*Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!*....and that was just at 137°F. Of course some people have thicker skin. Sorry, not willing to go to 150. My opinion is that doing so would result in an instant blister. *cough*...Now Flint if you think you can handle 150°F then I'm skipping the double-dog-dare and going straight to the triple-dog-dare. :devil: :arf:
> 
> Getting back on subject; The GB folk need to shake a leg. This is taking way too long. By the time they get this thing figured out I'm afraid the tech they're using will become obsolete and/or people will lose interest.


Considering many meats need to be cooked to 160°F, I'm not surprised that Cat begins to roast at 150°F. Thanks for taking a blister for science. 

And, agreed. If they don't get a move on, someone else will have a flux capacitor and GPS in a light before this gets to market.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

ironbrewer said:


> Sorry Flintrock, but 99% of the people want a dependable, budget friendly product. I don't care what flux capacitor it has to have to do that. Its a mountain bike forum. I'm not going to ride trails with a strobe. I never ride with less than 2 light sources, so 2000 to 2200 Lumes, on both would be plenty. I would like to have 3 hours run time, running 10% of that time on high. Most of my riding is on slower trails, with some fast downhills thrown in. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking with it.
> 
> I think its a big ask to get a durable, and budget friendly light!
> 
> I think its best to keep it simple to be able to get this.


Ironbrewer I'm with you 110% except for the part about implying we shouldn't talk about details if that's what you meant to imply. I mean if you don't want to talk details fine, but as cat said, this is _not_ simple and saying "I'm just a biker and want a good light" and the "don't talk about things like drivers". If you don't want to talk about it don't. That's not meant to be rude.

But how do you think good lights are made? Nobody is discussing some revolutionary new driver design, just discussing some basic decisions using existing tech as it relates to the video and the button options and "simple" things like heat which eat into that 2200 lumens you want and into battery life that you didn't mention but presumably want. You think that is all simple?

Your requests are great but they are universal and the real discussions that SOMEONE is going to have to have is how to do that, and how to balance tradeoffs. And I don't care if you don't think that's my job. I'll comment on what I want to comment on.

I think GJHS will come up with something nice. Will it be as nice as it could be with a more open discussion? Maybe not, but ok.

At cat.. I both agree and disagree. Much cheap chinese chunk is cheap because they just don't put thought into it. That takes time and money too.... BUT it's just done by people, not magic corporate elves. And if people donate their time, then that part is free. The other aspect of cheap is because of actual production costs, and finally QC costs. For that compromises MUST be made, but there hasn't been much discussed here that fits into that other than wireless remotes. OK DTP heatsinks cost a bit extra but that's a must have item.

Now.. if you all wan to see what a "custom light" discussion can look like, have a look here:

The Q8, a BLF premium edition SRK type monster flashlight | BudgetLightForum.com

Now that's a custom light discussion. I know, I know, mtb not BLF, no flux capacitors... but, when it comes it to it, their goals are mostly similar. Take an existing light, make some changes a few people want, keep it cheap. Sure they want the most power they can get, but they just have different kinds of power limitations. It looks like 2200 is going to be the most power you can get from the GB light too, for under 150C. I bet the Q8 hits all the simple goals cat.

Anyway, whatever, I'm still waiting for a green one.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

As for the temp thing, I think you're overdramatizing or you didn't correct for emmisivity. It's a good cuttoff for a commercial wearable thing though.

For the record I've been in sauna's (ok wood and air not the same) of a 105C for several minutes. You should try it. 

Never mind, I did a little digging for fun, and find thermal resistivities (from noctigon imaging) for XM-L2 on DTP .. looks like a bit less than 1K/watt (at 20W, each LED only has 6.7 W so not so much) surprisingly.. but that's to the MCPCB. I suspect that's by far the biggest delta T though until the case-air transition. So it does look like we're talking about beeing WAAAAAY below what these led's can handle. I doubt the LED is much over 160F (71C).

Anyway, every bit of cooling added and driver efficiency saved adds to lumen headroom under the 150C limit.


I find it slightly funny that given previous comments that nobody even knew that.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Now this is maybe not a budget idea, and probably not for this light, (and may count as flux capacitors, so sorry), but *if you coat the tips of the fins with a low conductivity material, basically any plastic, rubberized glue, etc, then it becomes MUCH less hot to the touch and I suspect you loose very little cooling!* You loose some radiative, but almost no conductive/convective cooling, which I suspect still dominates at 150F. So you can crank those temps on up a bit more. Probably gains you 50 or 60F. (or just enjoy the cooler touch). The places you do lose some cooling are big surfaces like around the button, so you'd be better off to groove those a little.

I was thinking of some bonnet, but this seemed like a much more feasible idea.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There's a lot we don't bother discussing because no need to go that in depth.

But btw you forgot the thermal resistance going from mcpcb and the case itself. That's actually the biggest issue and highest point of thermal resistance.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> I find it slightly funny that given previous comments that nobody even knew that.


More heat equals less light from the power used? No mystery there.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Do we have any danger of Thermal Runaway with this light? (See this thread - particularly post#2 for easy explanation regarding Thermal Runaway in LED lights).

-Garry


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ironbrewer said:


> Sorry Flintrock, but 99% of the people want a dependable, budget friendly product. I don't care what flux capacitor it has to have to do that. Its a mountain bike forum. . .


All I know is that I'm gonna try my darndest to hit 88MPH while riding with this light! It's worth a try, right? 

-Garry


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Damn it Garry I can't give rep from my phone lol.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

garrybunk said:


> All I know is that I'm gonna try my darndest to hit 88MPH while riding with this light! It's worth a try, right?
> 
> -Garry


You may have too just to cool down the 150F case temperature.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> For the record I've been in sauna's (ok wood and air not the same) of a 105C for several minutes. You should try it.


I agree, "not the same".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna#Modern_saunas


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> There's a lot we don't bother discussing because no need to go that in depth.
> 
> But btw you forgot the thermal resistance going from mcpcb and the case itself. That's actually the biggest issue and highest point of thermal resistance.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Just because I didn't comment in detail (funny considering your first point) doesn't mean I forgot it.

The higest point of thermal resistance is indeed from case to air but
a) that cannot be correctly modelled as simple resistance
b) That information is already built into knowing the case temp at a given power.

For a given case, the case temp in a certain situation (wind speed etc) will be fixed by the total LED power (this actually depends only very little on anything else inside the lamp other than total power and the outer case design) and if we have a given case (we do) and we set a max temp... then we thus fix a max total power, which happens to sound like it's near 20W for a 150F case of similar size to this. THEN you only need to know thermal resistance from the case to the junction to calculate the LED temp. Now without knowing that case to air "resistance" at all, I don't know if we can run each LED at 2 W or 15W before hitting 150F but I know if thermal resistance from case to LED is around 1K/W then that's between 66 to 80C. Anyway, it sounds like 7W on each led is about right for 150F, and then we're talking about the ballpark of 72C or a little more.

I did leave out MCPCB to case. I said that. I plan to look into it more. I did say, and I stand by the suspicion for now, that I suspect that's significantly less of an issue than the board to LED, the reason is one, it's a MUCH bigger contact if done right and 2, looks less sever based on thermal images, but I do want numbers. I will find them soon. Already have found bounds on it, just have to look more closely.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

garrybunk said:


> Do we have any danger of Thermal Runaway with this light? (See this thread - particularly post#2 for easy explanation regarding Thermal Runaway in LED lights).
> 
> -Garry


I know about thermal runaway. Not if we have either a) current control or b) thermal control. b seems automatic and I think a should exist, but from what I saw, I'm not convinced it will.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> I agree, "not the same".


I don't need the link. My knowledge of this stuff isn't from wikipedia and we're already agreeing (mostly). This point though is important and is why this conversation and even the irrational heckling, resulted in an idea (maybe not new).

20W lights make heat. If we can understand that the LED is NOT the limiting factor, then we only have to make that heat safe/comfortable, and yes touching insulators is MUCH different than touching conductors.

So why does coating fins with an insulator (a rough one preferably) not degrade cooling power? Because at 150 cooling is still conduction and convection dominated and that depends much more on the larger fin area than the tips. Radiation on the other hand depends on heat conduction to the "apparent" area (visible solid angle to be specific) and that is affected more by the tips, but isn't critical for pushing past 150F.

Thermo plastics are becomming popular and they are not uncomfortable to hold out of the oven. I've molded plastics much hotter around boiling, and smooth flat ones are yes uncomfortable to molded, but not scary to bump against. Thin fins with a roughened plastic coating would be even better yet and you might even find you can pick the thing up at 100C and walk around with it. It would need a test obviously.



flat said:


> More heat equals less light from the power used? No mystery there.


no.. no mystery. I was commenting on how it's surprising that nobody knows how close we are to running up against LED limits.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Handling a chunk of aluminum at 150°F or higher bare handed is uncomfortable, and possibly injurious. People would rather have a cooler & more efficient light than a hotter & less efficient one. Experiences with saunas, plastics, vulcanology, baked goods, etc. doesn't change that.

I'm surprised you think others don't realize this and similar lights are bumping against the upper limits of what's technically possible at this price point. 

I'm happy to read the technical discussion even if I don't grasp all of it, but I don't believe it's helpful to approach the subject like a techno-bull in a china shop.


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Interesting article on temperature and possible burns, looking at different materials. Aluminum is bad. From what I see you can get a burn in 1 second contact time at 65.5 degrees C or 150 degrees Fahrenheit. 
https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/Downloads/newsletters/07V3N3.pdf

That is too fast to get a burn. Don't fall on your 150 degree light, or lean on it.

Relevant info is in figure 2.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

So realizing that the LED is not the limit and that coating things in heat-tolerant rubber will make them MUCH easier to handle with bare hands is "techno bull china shop?" 

I don't think rubber coatings is flux capacitors. Realizing that it wouldn't fry the LED does require a little consideration. Nobody is required to follow all the details of it. That's up to you.

Anyway, who tosses around hot lamps with bare hands? We're talking about accidents here only. I've never touched my halogen while it was hot, except once intentionally. But I'm not aiming for that bar. I'm aiming for the community standard here... abilty to "handle" it at least like a hot potato, with bare hands.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

ironbrewer said:


> Interesting article on temperature and possible burns, looking at different materials. Aluminum is bad. From what I see you can get a burn in 1 second contact time at 65.5 degrees C or 150 degrees Fahrenheit.
> https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/Downloads/newsletters/07V3N3.pdf
> 
> That is too fast to get a burn. Don't fall on your 150 degree light, or lean on it.
> ...


You can get a scratch in one second contact with a twig. But YES aluminum is bad... That's exactly what I'm saying. COAT THE TIPS. Then you can go MUCH hotter, or keep it much more "handlable", your choice. The first choice is only available upon consideration of LED temps though, some china bull techno thinking (that I've almost finished for you).

It's also true that this 1 second is with pressure conact and it's a very minor burn, and that with fins, it will take longer if possible at all, because the heat transfer per skin area is greatly reduced on average. So add a little rubber and it's all the more better yet.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> All I know is that I'm gonna try my darndest to hit 88MPH while riding with this light! It's worth a try, right?
> 
> -Garry


:lol: This might work; Set lamp on the seat, set to precisely to 1963 lumen output...then sit on the lamp when it reaches 150°F... scream into a computer microphone until one Gig of data is used....hit 88mph at precisely the same time. If done right you might arrive in 1963 and maybe be able to warn JFK. Let me know if this works. :winker:


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

You have never leaned against something by accident?? I didn't say rubber was bad. I said I dont want a light on my bike who's external temp is 150 degrees. If the thin coating on the end of the fins is possible, and not prohibitively expensive thats fine. 

Just responding to you saying 150 wouldn't burn you.

The light shouldn't need to get that hot. Full power is only needed while riding fast, when riding slow, you can have it running at 30 or 40% power. It shouldn't get that hot.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Somebody needs to buy a Yinding and boost it to max current, then melt a big piece of plastic over it and play hot potato with his imaginary friend.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Cat-man-do said:


> :lol: This might work; Set lamp on the seat, set to precisely to 1963 lumen output...then sit on the lamp at 150°F... scream into a computer microphone until one Gig of data is used....hit 88mph at precisely the same time. If done right you might arrive in 1963 and maybe be able to warn JFK. Let me know if this works. :winker:


It's so refreshingly different than anything in my ordinary life, being around people who ridicule thought as wastes of posts, but this is not lol. It's like being back in gym class in highschool. Maybe the light will design itself.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Flintrock said:


> ...... COAT THE TIPS. Then you can go MUCH hotter, or keep it much more "handlable", your choice. The first choice is only available upon consideration of LED temps though, some china bull techno thinking (that I've almost finished for you).


At this stage, the light that this thread was trying to cover will not have such features as you are proposing.

I'm not a moderator here, but I'd recommend that you start a new thread to toss around new ideas for a future light. Let this thread veer back on topic about the light that GJHS has facilitated. Your new thread can capture the new ideas and then you can work with a manufacturer to produce a light featuring those ideas.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

ironbrewer said:


> You have never leaned against something by accident?? I didn't say rubber was bad. I said I dont want a light on my bike who's external temp is 150 degrees. If the thin coating on the end of the fins is possible, and not prohibitively expensive thats fine.
> 
> Just responding to you saying 150 wouldn't burn you.
> 
> The light shouldn't need to get that hot. Full power is only needed while riding fast, when riding slow, you can have it running at 30 or 40% power. It shouldn't get that hot.


I ride fast almost always.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Vancbiker said:


> At this stage, the light that this thread was trying to cover will not have such features as you are proposing.
> 
> I'm not a moderator here, but I'd recommend that you start a new thread to toss around new ideas for a future light. Let this thread veer back on topic about the light that GJHS has facilitated. Your new thread can capture the new ideas and then you can work with a manufacturer to produce a light featuring those ideas.


at what stage? the body is still the wrong size, the driver runs off the wrong volts and probably in the wrong way, and the software isn't what people want. The only "stage" is some testing of a UI people don't yet like and thermal properties of a body that didn't work out.

THE design issue being addressed right now is thermal management now known to be limited by safety only and you are declaratively stating that a protective covering is not possible to consider? At this "stage"? Hunh?

Yes... I want a light that's
a) strong
b) cheap
d) 2200 lumens
e) hides blinky modes.
f) weighs less than 80g
g) has the best battery life possible
h) comes in green.

And I don't want any discussion of how to do that. Those are my "simple" wishes.

Yes, this is clearly a Mountain Biker forum. I am in the wrong place. Excuse me. I hope the OP makes you a nice "custom" light. I suspect he may.


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Flintrock said:


> I ride fast almost always.


Then you, my friend, should buy a Lupine Wilma 7 for the helmet and a lupine Betty R15 for your bars. Most people here must have way more money than I do though. That set up would buy my used bike 3 times. I'm slow and fat so I can get away with a cheaper light set up I guess. I did ride 4 times last week at my local bike trails, Galbraith in Bellingham. I might not have a bunch of money, but I'm lucky to live near so much great mountain biking. Lived in Boulder, Colorado before this. Oh and its awesome to be able to do a day trip to Whistler BC too.


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Sweet my last post was 420 dude!!!


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

ironbrewer said:


> Then you, my friend, should buy a Lupine Wilma 7 for the helmet and a lupine Betty R15 for your bars. Most people here must have way more money than I do though. That set up would buy my used bike 3 times. I'm slow and fat so I can get away with a cheaper light set up I guess. I did ride 4 times at my local bike trails, Galbraith in Bellingham. I might not have a bunch of money, but I'm lucky to live near so much great mountain biking. Lived in Boulder, Colorado before this. Oh and its awesome to be able to do a day trip to Whistler BC too.


Can't say I'm nto jealous, although I've got pretty nice routes around too. Yeah, I'm ok, but not made of money (well.. you know the wife wants it all) You don't need a $5000 bike to ride fast. I don't race. I just push myself.


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Oh and all I'm saying is this thread, unless I'm completely missing the point it to get a reliable, and reasonably priced light setup. If it gets to convoluted and tries to do everything for everyone, that won't happen. People are free to talk about how to do it, but we should stick to the KISS formula. Keep It Simple Stupid. It helps my slow brain be able to grasp the concepts.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Right, what you may have missed is that the feedback at the moment is the light gets too hot. Nobody _wants_ it bigger, but that's the simple solution and I'm not saying anybody minds either. Nobody thought it could get hotter anyway because of damaging LED's but this seems like a myth now, so sorting that out is progress isn't it, So why not at least PUT OUT other thoughts like:

Say Goodbye to Exhaust Pipe Burns | Motorcycle Sarah
Nansulate Energy Saving Coatings - Thermal Test Data - How it Works

yes, maybe it won't end up on this light (that 30 day cure time is a bummer), but while others argue to take it elsewhere, the argument itself saunas and all, is what led to this thought. Anyway, how about that, motorcyles have a hot tail pipe and you guys are afraid of a 150F light. There had to be a solution didn't there?


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Your comments on saunas or anything else has had no bearing on my knowledge about touching hot metal. I suspect I'm not alone on that point.

My comment about being a "techno-bull in a china shop" (btw, that's how a direct quote should look) was in reference to using a generally confrontational tone. I don't believe it's helpful, but it's oddly fun to watch someone get so amped up about such things. It reminds me of some of the trash talk I've seen in YouTube comments about house painting techniques.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Flintrock said:


> And I don't want any discussion of how to do that. Those are my "simple" wishes.
> 
> Yes, this is clearly a Mountain Biker forum. I am in the wrong place. Excuse me. I hope the OP makes you a nice "custom" light. I suspect he may.


You don't get it. We can't even get them to do the simple things such as don't put the flash in the mode rotation, much less putting special cool touch materials on the fins. We don't have the kind of relationships that you do on BLF (I read parts of that thread) with manufacturers, where you can dictate every specific part and design. We don't have that kind of pull. This is a first for this forum. We are not the designers we are just the customers. Also there was the idea that if we specified every part we would end up with a $300 light.

In fact there was some people talking about doing the complete design, but why should we do all that work and then let someone else cash in on it. We might as well start your own company at that point.

By the way, we issued this same challenge to ITUO and they made the light. It's available now for around $150. It's super nice, but it's also way more money than some of us wanted to spend. So our dream light was already made, but we are just giving it another try at getting it made cheaply. If you had been here more than a week you would know that.

Also, don't make us mountain bikers sound like a bunch of nitwits. That's not going to make you any friends.

Some of your ideas aren't bad, but it's way outside of the scope of this project which was pretty well defined over a year ago.

I can also guarantee you that nobody wants a light that runs at 150F on the outside. It's insane.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Cat-man-do said:


> :lol: This might work; Set lamp on the seat, set to precisely to 1963 lumen output...then sit on the lamp when it reaches 150°F... scream into a computer microphone until one Gig of data is used....hit 88mph at precisely the same time. If done right you might arrive in 1963 and maybe be able to warn JFK. Let me know if this works. :winker:


Brilliant! You're on to something, but unless you convert Lat/Long (32°46′43″N 96°48′30″W) to UTM before entering the blink code coordinates into the light, it'll never work. You could re-materialize practically any-when or where.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wow his thread got all jacked up. Roadies.....

150F light is rather common. Uncomfortable to hold on to. Technically you can get a first degree burn from temps lower than that, trust me I know too well. Part of that is dependent on other conditions involved.

That said, I could care less if it was at 130 or 150. Those in hot climates arent going to be so happy about higher case temps. 150 doesnt bother me. and the slight loss in luminous flux is pointless to argue over at a 20F difference. Not something anything beyond an integrating sphere (or at least decent lux meter) will detect anyway. Dont care who you are, your eyes will never see a difference.

Upside to higher temp threshold, takes more to trigger thermal protection. Down side is its uncomfortable to hold, or in some cases even have to touch.

Still the fact that the light at what should be running at no more than 2200 lumens is having heat problems is seriously bothering me. There is a major mistake somewhere and its not in the case design.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

yep


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Flintrock said:


> Say Goodbye to Exhaust Pipe Burns | Motorcycle Sarah
> Nansulate Energy Saving Coatings - Thermal Test Data - How it Works
> 
> yes, maybe it won't end up on this light (that 30 day cure time is a bummer), but while others argue to take it elsewhere, the argument itself saunas and all, is what led to this thought. Anyway, how about that, motorcyles have a hot tail pipe and you guys are afraid of a 150F light. There had to be a solution didn't there?


But does it really matter if you keep the heat inside the tailpipe of a motorcycle??(guess it could hurt the packing) When I'm riding my moto my entire body has a covering, boots long sleeves, long pants generally padded, pressure suit, Helmet, and gloves. When I'm riding my bike, not so much. When I said I'm slow on my mountain bike I was just not being a pompous ass, I've been riding mountain bikes for the better part of 30 years, and dirt bikes for 40 years. That being said I would have a hard time outriding my lights on a climb even at 40% power. I guess I could increase my fast riding if they had night lift riding at whistler, but I would still have big breaks to let the light cool.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

This is exactly what I had in mind actually:
https://plastidip.com/

The rough rubber used on tool handles.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

tigris99 said:


> Still the fact that the light at what should be running at no more than 2200 lumens is having heat problems is seriously bothering me. There is a major mistake somewhere and its not in the case design.


Yeah, me too. Especially with all that surface area on the outside. That's why I asked GJHS for pictures of the insides. Of course that request in now buried in the pile of garbage that this thread turned into.

They need to be testing it at the normal voltage with a small fan, just like you do. I don't remember you getting 150F in your light tests. Did you?


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

ironbrewer said:


> But does it really matter if you keep the heat inside the tailpipe of a motorcycle??(guess it could hurt the packing) When I'm riding my moto my entire body has a covering, boots long sleeves, long pants generally padded, pressure suit, Helmet, and gloves. When I'm riding my bike, not so much. When I said I'm slow on my mountain bike I was just not being a pompous ass, I've been riding mountain bikes for the better part of 30 years, and dirt bikes for 40 years. That being said I would have a hard time outriding my lights on a climb even at 40% power. I guess I could increase my fast riding if they had night lift riding at whistler, but I would still have big breaks to let the light cool.


That's the idea, keep the hot bits inside, not where you touch it. Let convection or wind bring it out, which is what's happening mostly anyway. Might not be simple to apply a durable coating in thin strips. Ok, I don't ride so fast uphill. But then I ride REALLY fast downhill.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Wow his thread got all jacked up. Roadies.....
> 
> 150F light is rather common. Uncomfortable to hold on to. Technically you can get a first degree burn from temps lower than that, trust me I know too well. Part of that is dependent on other conditions involved.
> 
> ...


They should find out how much actual electrical power they were pumping through it of course. A case design and electrical power are in fact pretty much the only things that should have big impacts on case temperature (in a given air environment). It has nothing to do with DTP or anything like that. That only effects how much hotter the LED will be.

2200 lumens should be 20 watts ish. If they are drawing 40 for some reason then there you go. But all the conversation on the XP3 (2300 lumens) was that it thermal throttled and did hit 150F, but stationary, not moving I think.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> Your comments on saunas or anything else has had no bearing on my knowledge about touching hot metal. I suspect I'm not alone on that point.
> 
> My comment about being a "techno-bull in a china shop" (btw, that's how a direct quote should look) was in reference to using a generally confrontational tone. I don't believe it's helpful, but it's oddly fun to watch someone get so amped up about such things. It reminds me of some of the trash talk I've seen in YouTube comments about house painting techniques.


You're right I should ignore all the pissing and your name calling. Noted.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Maybe the driver is hugely inefficient at the 4V shown in the video and that's what's causing the heat problems. I don't trust the people doing the testing. Tell them we want the early prototype in our hands right away.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Vardier:


> GJHS can you get them to take the light apart and take a picture of internal heat sinking surface (the led wall). I can't see how this light is having heat problems with all that external surface area. The problem must be in conducting the heat from the led board to the inside of the case. It's either too thin, or there is a large hole behind the led board (aka Solarstorm design)


There, I found it for you. Case temp only depends on total electrical power, the case design, and the external environment, not internal heat sinking. The physics is simple.

Edited as I guess maybe we never established what "thermal problems" means.. so yeah, maybe the led's are getting too hot.

GJBH, what kind of thermal problems are they having? is the case too hot or are the led's running into temperature issues?

If it's the leds but the case temps are reasonable for a given electrical power (forget lumens for now), then changing the case isn't the solution. If the case is under 150F there's no way the led's should be overheating.

If the case itself is overheating, fixing internal heatsinking won't help.

Heat here is like a current controlled circuit. You can't change one resistor and effect the voltage drop across another if the current (power) flow is fixed.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Maybe its one linear driver per LED? That would make it cheap, small, and easy to control them all individually.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> You're right I should ignore all the pissing and your name calling. Noted.


Feel free to ignore me, but let's be clear. I haven't called you or anyone else anything, but I have been critical of your general attitude. I doubt I'm the first to recognize that you don't play well with others.

If you don't care to be viewed in that light, it's up to you to change your demeanor. You seem to have taken the time to gain some technical expertise in this area. Why not work to communicate it in an effective way, as others routinely do?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK flintrock now you have hit a response that's way off.
Varider is NOT talking about internal heat sinking (nowhere has that ever been mentioned regarding a light here). Not even sure where you got "internal heat sinking" out of what he said.

He is referring to the thermal path between the mcpcb for the emitters to the case itself. As I had mentioned earlier (and you tried to pick apart so I ignored you) the emitter mcpcb to case design is almost as important as the surface area of the outside of the case. Arguing that point shows very true and deep lack of knowledge of led light design.

If the case either doesn't have a solid "wall" behind the PCB with use a very thin layer of thermal paste or even if that "wall" is too thin the thermal transfers resistance becomes too high from the emitters to the outside of the case. This causes the emitters to rapidly heat up to higher temps causing the case to heat up to thermal protection threshold much faster.

Not going to lie, starting to get rather annoyed with a roadie that knows very little of light design obviously turning every detail into a debate and trashing this thread.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

If the heat issue doesn't turn out to be related to the internal thermal path, wonder if the problem could be that the fins are too close together to allow effective air convection — in which case maybe they could be spread apart some more and widened proportionately? tigris we need your wind tunnel. ;-)


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

flat said:


> Brilliant! You're on to something, but unless you convert Lat/Long (32°46′43″N 96°48′30″W) to UTM before entering the blink code coordinates into the light, it'll never work. You could re-materialize practically any-when or where.


Hang on, I'm writing all this down for when the light arrives! So which UTM zone do I need to key in? Do I need to use meters? International feet? or US Survey Feet?

-Garry


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Guys, what I can say is that I have pushed hard to ensure that the design is spotless: solid wall, thermal paste and a secret feature to make sure, as much as possible, that heat will transfer to the case. They won't let me share the secret because they may remove it, though I doubt we will allow it unless they come up with a better method.

I am no expert on all things driver nor PCB, I do however know from experience what we need in a mountain bike light. Some of the stuff put in this light is because GB wants to sell this to as many people as possible so they are incorporating blink modes and other items in, that we wont use. When we test it we can tweak it to be as good as possible.

I'm a bit upset at the delay, even though I know they are working on it carefully. Communication across cultures isn't easy and if I have a worry it's that the "original" stuff has been changed which won't matter because our testing phase is next.

I have a competent tester set up to put it through its paces and will ensure another forum member will also give it a good test. Lets keep the ideas flowing without wasted arguments. Yesterday the design team was meeting so hopefully we will have answers soon.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

garrybunk said:


> Hang on, I'm writing all this down for when the light arrives! So which UTM zone do I need to key in? Do I need to use meters? International feet? or US Survey Feet?
> 
> -Garry


Better PM for that information. We don't want a crowd showing up at the book drop at the wrong moment. Also, I agree that writing is the best way to avoid unfortunate incidents, but I always tattoo the data so it remains within the space-time slipstream once 88 mph has been achieved. Two documentaries cover this in detail: Memento, and of course, Twelve Monkeys.


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## dawgman25 (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks for the hard work GJHS. Let's try to get this thread back on track. The last few pages have been painful to read. BTW, I would support a blinky feature so I can use on a roadbike as well. Nice to have that feature when needed.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

GJHS, thanks again for keeping the project moving forward.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS, 
have they decided on whether or not the driver is programmable?


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> OK flintrock now you have hit a response that's way off.
> 
> Not even sure where you got "internal heat sinking" out of what he said.
> 
> He is referring to the thermal path between the mcpcb for the emitters to the case itself. A


Uhmm.. that's exactly what I meant by "internal heat sinking" which you would have realized if you weren't stuck on your attitude.



> ...the *thermal transfers resistance* becomes too high from the emitters to the outside of the case. This causes the emitters to rapidly heat up to higher temps *causing the* *case to heat up to thermal protection threshold much faster.*


 my bold

Sorry this is dead wrong. Poor "internal heat sinking" (as I call it) Causes the case to heat up more SLOWLY (_obviously_, but probably not much more slowly for normal ranges). If you wrap the LED in insulator, or vacuum even, the case will take ages to heat up. If you have a good thermal path, the case will heat up fast. This is well known in candlepower and BLF etc.

The LED will get hotter with poor conduction to the case, but the case itself will NOT get hotter and certainly won't get hot faster.

In fact, It will eventually come to exactly the same temperature regardless of the thermal path from LED to case.

Energy is conserved. Power to the inside of the case is purely determined by electrical power. Power from the case to the world is purely determined by temperature. At a set temperature it will radiate/conduct and convect at a set power rate. Steffan-boltzman law determines the the radiative part of that for example. Once the case temp is hot enough that the thermal flow to the environment equals the input electrical power, the temp stabilizes. This stabilization point does NOT depend on the thermal path from the LED to the case, only on equilibrium power flow.

This is exactly analogous to an electrical circuit with a fixed current supply. If the circuit ends in one big resistor to ground (case to air), the voltage (temperature) on top of that resistor (at the case) does not depend on the resistances before it, only on the current (power). What is affected by the prior resistors is the prior voltage (temperature) offets.

You can be annoyed all you want, but you're dead wrong on the physics.

The thing you can do to give more turbo time with the same external case design is increase case mass (fill holes). It's like adding a capacitor, a buffer, but depending where it goes it may not reduce LED temps and it wont reduce ultimate case temp, but it does slow down the case heating,* I think this effect is exactly what you are confusing with "thermal transfer resistance".* Mass and "thermal transfer resistance" can be related but are very different things with different effects. You can have a huge internal case mass, and long initial heating times from it and still have TERRIBLE LED heat transfer and poor LED cooling. I think these effects absolutely get mixed up and it causes mixed motives. You want a light bike light. That's why you made the outer case small. So it's a bit silly to then go fill it with mass just to get a longer turbo time, when you could instead increase outer mass and get higher steady power handling. You want to fill it with mass only in places where it actually improves heat flow, not just heat capacity.

If you want to reduce equillibrium case temperature you either have to change the outer case design, or reduce electrical power. There is no other way.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

You are adding nothing to this thread.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Only reality. His physics is wrong. *Poorer heat transfer to the case heats the case faster? this is complete lala land nonsense.* It's the kind of answers that, well most regular people give on physics exams actually. Nothing to be ashamed of.

If the LED is getting hot, look inside.

IF the _case_ is getting too hot (eventually), look at the outer case design and the electrical draw, nothing else.

If the case heats up too fast... that's a good thing. Just check that you're getting the lumens per watt that you want so you're not wasting heat.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

We've repeatedly asked you to transfer your various points of off-topic discussion to others threads, so as to not clog up this thread. You have repeatedly derailed this thread since you signed up last week. I don't appreciate it and I bet that most of the people following this thread probably don't appreciate it either. 

This project has been in the works for long time, and you don't care or respect what it took to get this far. I've tried to educate you about this, but I clearly just wasted my time engaging with you. It's clear that this project doesn't meet up to your standards and that we are just a dumb bunch of mountain bikers.

You have made yourself a persona non grata in my eyes.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

You've made two posts today attacking me for correcting facts central to the discussion that were blatantly wrong (laughably wrong now actually which I wouldn't say if not for surrounding circumstances) and that others brought into this discussion, and now claim I have gone off topic. The only person off topic right (at the moment) and being personal is you.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

so since this got lost in the nastiness, I'll leave it here:

If the LED is getting hot, look inside. 


IF the case is getting too hot (eventually), look at the outer case design and the electrical draw, nothing else matters. 


If the case heats up too fast... that's a good thing. Just check that you're getting the lumens per watt that you want so you're not wasting heat. You could add more mass inside to buy some turbo time, but unless you value size more than masss, you're better off to extend the outer case and bring down the final temps. Nothing you do inside can do that.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Omg dude just stop. Your Google foo is failing you right now. When you test, modify, customize, and machine your own lights like most these guys here then speak. Your missing details like thermal conductivity, thermal dynamics, emissivity and so on. Things that also matter that can prove your responses wrong.

Gotta find the bloc, button for this guy so I can try to figure out where the constructive convo went.

@andy, have you seen my latest creation??? The wind tunnel that's actually mounted to my integrated sphere. Was a project to pull off but let's me take solid lumen readings and everything all at once. Fan is even variable speed 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Omg dude just stop. Your Google foo is failing you right now. Your missing details like thermal conductivity, *thermal dynamics*


Do you want to complain I go into too many details or two few? I've got half a lifetime of education, and experience, not google foo. And I've spent my life building things a wee bit more complicated than flashlights.

Of course emissivity matters, but we're talking about anodized aluminum. (I hope, jeesh). Gee maybe the air temp also matters? Boy, I never thought about thermal conductivity, that thought went WAY over my head, lol. You don't say? Wow _thermodynamics_ changes it.. gee, haha. Throw out absurd assertions like poor heat conductivity conducts heat fast, and then back them up with a list of big words (or words you thought sounded big). Where's that face palm icon.

For a particular enclosed case, with a particular surface material, in a particular environment the only thing that is going to change the long term case temp under steady power input to the interior, is the amount of that power. now you might find some technical small correction to this statement (I can, do you want me to go into it?), but nothing that is going to make the LED to case thermal path responsible for case temps that are too high.

If you want to argue your brilliant science then do it, but you can't, because you're dead wrong, which itself would have been fine.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

wow, thanks for the laughs,their enjoyable. which is why i deleted half my post, too complex for your to follow anyway, obvious by your response.

OOh, found the ignore list again. sweet. Now I can stop trying to fill in that guys gaps and get back on topic.

Andy, Ill get you a pic of it when I get a chance, the tunnel isnt mounted right now but i have a pic somewhere (probably posted in one of the ituo or gemini threads) Ill post up when I get a chance. That said, sadly im being left out of the testing on this thing so I cant run it through my equipment before production. Ill have to wait till after I can buy one so I can do all of that. Consequences of my decision over the winter but oh well, dont mind buying one just to put through the battery of testing for you guys.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

"Dude" learn the word thermodynamics, then we can talk.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

If you don't want to believe me, believe this guy (Not who I learned from):
The LunaSol 20: the new benchmark for EDC lights



> deltaT(heatsink to case junction) = 1.85 W * .5 C * inch^2* W^-1 / (pi*d*h)
> 
> deltaT(heatsink to case junction) = 1.85 * (.5 / (3.14159*.750*.07874) C
> 
> deltaT(heatsink to case junction) = 4.99 degrees C


Well done. He even keeps track of all of the units correctly.

Now, notice how to calculate delta T at that junction all he did was use the POWER and the properties of THAT junction (and I don't know if he got those properties correct). The upstream junction to the LED did NOT impact it. The same is true for the junction to air, and the delta T from air to case and thus the temperature of the case depends on the power, the air, and the details of the case to air junction. In the end he (correctly) adds up all the delta T's to get the LED temp, but not one of the DELTA's depended on any other. The sum does, starting with the air to case delta T and adding upward from there, not the other way around. Temperatures reference from air just like voltages reference from ground.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Flintrock said:


> at what stage? the body is still the wrong size, the driver runs off the wrong volts and probably in the wrong way, and the software isn't what people want. The only "stage" is some testing of a UI people don't yet like and thermal properties of a body that didn't work out.
> 
> THE design issue being addressed right now is thermal management now known to be limited by safety only and you are declaratively stating that a protective covering is not possible to consider? At this "stage"? Hunh?


The "stage" being that an extrusion tool has already been built. The "stage" being that machining fixtures, tooling and CNC programs have been made. In order for the builder of this light to keep it at a budget price, I very much doubt they can afford to toss all that work to incorporate some new features or design.



Flintrock said:


> I am in the wrong place. Excuse me.


Not so much in the wrong place, but certainly in the wrong thread. I was sincere in my recommendation that you start a new thread for discussion of ideas regarding thermal issues with lights. Might possibly lead to a second generation MTBR custom light build.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Yep


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> Yep


Nobody has been talking about new features for this light for about three pages. We've been discussing how to diagnose thermal problems in this light, as brought up by others, not me. Do you want to talk about new thermal features again? It seems like you do. There have been three times as many posts wasted by arguing about arguing as anything else here. If you don't want to discuss an idea, tip, don't.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

I will (sincerely) consider a thread. There wasn't really that much to say, just a couple of passing ideas, that stemmed off discussion of what is really limiting this light (and if you look back there wasn't _really_ that much said before all the bickering about saying it and even now we're only page 10 total), and a correction of some very wrong diagnostics of the physics stated by other people. If I see enough from that to make a new conversation I'll start one. I don't really have any more to say about it at the moment. Do you?

tigris99 isn't even wrong about how to make a good light. He obviously has been around that a bunch. But I know the applied science and I know the mechanisms for why it makes a good light and thought I'd try to help avoid conflating issues that aren't related. I mean in the end looking for good heat conduction inside is good anyway, we want that, but it won't solve case heating problems, and the first issue up is getting the case design right. Fortunately the OP is working on that.


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## Sirius9 (Apr 24, 2013)

OMG, what a wast of time... 
admin should just delete everithing after post #320...


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

As for the regulator part, I did start a new thread, and as it turns out, what I thought would be a common regulator scheme apparently isn't that common inside lights. It's not clear if industry has access to such regulator designs or not, but the open source world does't seem to yet:

A more efficient driver (digital to analog controlled buck) | BudgetLightForum.com

If that goes anywhere depends if anyone picks it up. TA has indicated he might. (he is the one who showed me the Ti chip). There are like one or three people who actually do this for fun and we can only respect whatever they choose to work on or not.

But that leads us to a new conclusion... the regulator on this light, if it can't be that ideal and will just step down to a fixed voltage or current which is then PWM'd (or linear regulated from there), should probably step down to a voltage or current no higher than really wanted. 4.1V might be a little too high. Best is just current regulate it instead of voltage like the MTN-MAX driver and regulate it to 2A probably.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

Sirius9 said:


> OMG, what a wast of time...
> admin should just delete everithing after post #320...


I agree.

I might go a step farther, delete the whole thread after the OP and just edit it to say "We want a three led light for helmet and bars, and we want it to be pretty good for a low price and GJBH is on it, stay tuned for shopping cart links." The thing is he IS on it. This is all just chat anyway, not sure what everyone is so uptight about. Chill, chime on on subjects you want, not on things you don't.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

varider said:


> GJHS,
> have they decided on whether or not the driver is programmable?


Yes programmable. That was a must have, day one.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS said:


> Yes programmable. That was a must have, day one.


Awesome. 
Do you need more ideas for the UI, or do you have everything covered at this point?


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Flintrock said:


> Nobody has been talking about new features for this light for about three pages. We've been discussing how to diagnose thermal problems in this light, as brought up by others, not me. Do you want to talk about new thermal features again? It seems like you do. There have been three times as many posts wasted by arguing about arguing as anything else here. If you don't want to discuss an idea, tip, don't.


I have some experience with CNC production, and I was agreeing with Vancbiker's assessment in a succinct way. I didn't realize that would trouble anyone, but I see I was wrong again. My apologies.


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## Flintrock (Sep 14, 2016)

flat said:


> I have some experience with CNC production, and I was agreeing with Vancbiker's assessment in a succinct way. I didn't realize that would trouble anyone, but I see I was wrong again. My apologies.


Sorry for the confusion. I meant to address that at Vanc. My CNC experience aside, the only person who suggested a new(bigger) case so far was the OP. A new, case will mean new machining obviously. I suppose the rest of folks here were arguing against that in a sense. I suppose in effect I was supporting the possibility raised by the OP that it _may_ in fact need a new case if case temps are a problem and there's no excess of electrical power being consumed. (but the conversation referenced was something else and long since past)

On this I 100% agree. Obviously if case temps aren't a problem, or the cause is excess electrical power, it's better to use the design they already have. But if case temps are problem and electrical power is under control, something about the case will need modification. LED thermal path won't fix it.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Update: someone has already tried to steal our design and have it built! :nono:

Please be careful of sellers and websites claiming to have original designs, that are copies of someone's work. We all know how copies work. When this light comes out, whatever the final design and internals, the only place to buy it, will be GearBest.com and similar to the Original Yinding project we can point people to where to get the quality version.

Of course until the light is final we wont be showing internals photos and the like. As mentioned the testers of the final prototype are people you trust and have been here on this forum a long time.

GB, of course, has made some improvements and changes so the future is looking bright :aureola:


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

I wonder what they were trying to steal. 
Anyway, thanks for another update, and for the pre-release pep talk.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

:yawn:.............:shocked: Huh!.....*design idea gets stolen?*.....You woke me up to tell me that?:skep: What else is new in the world? .....:nono:
....Wake me when it gets here....:yawn:........zzzzz


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Let the clone wars begin! On the positive side maybe the other cheap light manufactures will get some hints on how to make a decent light for biking. You mean no blinking in the mode rotation? Holy cow, who knew. They are so focused on making the absolutely cheapest light, they don't think how many features they could add by making it just a little more expensive.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I see Gearbest is releasing their own house brand flashlight line called the "Zanflare"
They have one on presale right now. So maybe we may get our bike light soon!?


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

I think the bar was raised high for this one so I am thinking it may be a bit longer. And while yes, surprise surprise, copies are made everyday, this copy attempt will change a few things 

Personally I hate the wait though in conversation with GB, I am still excited about the final product

And in case you ask: No I have not stopped pushing them and am still working on it.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS,

Did you get any updates on what the actual heat problem was/is. What was the actual problem? Assuming the light was tested in still air:

Was the case getting too hot on the outside after the light was turned on for a while (steady state problem)
 Was the outside of the case getting warm/hot as soon as the light is turned on (transient effect)
 The inside was overheating, but the outside was cool. (Very poor conduction from the led mounting surface to the outside of the case, i.e very high internal thermal resistance)

*
I want you to really find out what's going on.*

I've been thinking about the various discussions we have had on this thread as well as the thermal thread. I think if the issue was 2) then it could be the thermal resistance of the case is very low, which is good, and the heat that is generated internally is transmitted to the outside of the case immediately. This would mean that the design is actually very good, but could be misinterpreted as being defective because it seems to be getting too hot to quickly. This would be especially true if the unit was tested in still air. Is this is case, then any air flow on the outside should strip the heat from unit, provided that the unit has adequate surface/design (i.e the fins are designed correctly).

Turning on the air flow would cause the outside temperatures to lower quickly (for proper design) as it reaches a new thermal equilibrium (i.e. steady state). This transient effect would be particularly evident for a high powered light, which is what we asked for.

*To summarize, problem number 2 might not be a problem at all. *

I still just don't understand how the prototype that they showed us to could be bad. It looks like it has way more surface area than other triple lights, i.e the ituo and glowworm lights. It just makes no sense at all. Even if the light is physically smaller than those lights it still has to have more surface area.

I really have no confidence in their testing crew at this point. *Tell them that we want that prototype for our own testing.* At least if we had it in our hands we could compare it size wise and run it in controlled testing.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

varider said:


> GJHS,
> 
> Did you get any updates on what the actual heat problem was/is. What was the actual problem? Assuming the light was tested in still air:
> 
> ...


Good questions.

Going along with #2, it's possible the case was already fairly hot from running it prior to shooting the video, which might explain what was shown. It looked like the video was only meant to show that they had a functional prototype, which would also explain the lack of translation or captions to more clearly explain what was happening. I hope a second video will appear before long, complete with captions and a little data to help nail down what the light can do.


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

GB is making the design bigger to increase output by a substantial amount and wants your feedback.

Old design was 74mm wide - 35.5mm front to back - 34mm top to bottom

New design is 111mm wide - 53.2mm front to back - 51mm top to bottom

Yinding is 44mm wide - 34mm front to back - 24mm top to bottom

Everyone agree with the new size?


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

GJHS said:


> GB is making the design bigger to increase output by a substantial amount and wants your feedback.
> 
> Old design was 74mm wide - 35.5mm front to back - 34mm top to bottom
> 
> ...


Weights would be useful, too.

I'm guessing the size increase is due to heat issues. Is that the case?


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

If its gonna be that big and that well finned it may as well have XHPs in it.

Has it got XHPs? :drumroll:


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

GJHS said:


> GB is making the design bigger to increase output by a substantial amount and wants your feedback.
> 
> Old design was 74mm wide - 35.5mm front to back - 34mm top to bottom
> 
> ...


So overall more than eight times the size of the Yinding? Sounds like it will make a great bar light. Helmet, not so much.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

As long as it works, then I don't care what size it is. It shouldn't be crazy heavy though. 

Does anyone know they width of the glowworm XS? I'm curious how the custom light compares to other triple lights.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

GJHS said:


> GB is making the design bigger to increase output by a substantial amount and wants your feedback.
> 
> Old design was 74mm wide - 35.5mm front to back - 34mm top to bottom
> 
> ...


That large of a light will have very limited appeal IMO. That's about 2x the frontal area of a Gemini Titan which from what I can tell has been a sales flop. Too big to helmet mount and even awkward to fit on the bars. I thought the Idea was to produce a "small" simple triple with modest power (2000 lumen) at a modest price ($50). With the amount of cooling fins shown the original size should have been able to handle 2000 lumens so at this point I'm confused.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

varider said:


> As long as it works, then I don't care what size it is. It shouldn't be crazy heavy though.
> 
> Does anyone know they width of the glowworm XS? I'm curious how the custom light compares to other triple lights.


Gloworm XS & Ituo XP3 have slightly smaller overall dimensions than the specs. quoted for the "original". 
Mole


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> With the amount of cooling fins shown the original size should have been able to handle 2000 lumens so at this point I'm confused.
> Mole


Yes I don't understand that either.

This custom light, with the smaller "original" dimensions, is still a bit larger than the XS and XP3, and it has more cooling fins, then the orignal version should be okay heat wise. So it shouldn't be necessary to make it significantly larger. It makes me think that their testing procedure is not good.

111mm is 4.4 inches. That's on the large side of how big I thought this light was going to be.

Tell them to send the first prototype to our tester and that he will agree to not share pictures of the light on the internet. I just want someone who actually knows what they are doing to look at the light.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

omg a light that big im out. that's retardedly huge. You could produce 3000 lumens and that light head would still be far to big. Sounds like the engineers working on this thing need to go back to school.


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

Looks like this project has morphed into something else. Here's an idea though, tell GB to beg, borrow or steal a BT21 NW, copy that and sell it with a 6800 mAh battery pack for $60. 

Could be a winner.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> omg a light that big im out. that's retardedly huge. You could produce 3000 lumens and that light head would still be far to big. Sounds like the engineers working on this thing need to go back to school.


Yep, too porky for me too.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

MRMOLE said:


> That large of a light will have very limited appeal IMO. . . . With the amount of cooling fins shown the original size should have been able to handle 2000 lumens so at this point I'm confused.
> Mole


Me too! Something is wrong if this thing can't handle the heat reasonably well. Are they forgetting about airflow across the light when on high? Sounds like perhaps whoever is handling this design/build is someone we shouldn't be working with on this!



GJHS said:


> GB is making the design bigger to increase output by a substantial amount and wants your feedback.
> 
> Old design was 74mm wide - 35.5mm front to back - 34mm top to bottom
> 
> ...


I just sketched up these dimensions so I could see it for myself. The width is a little long (barely acceptable I'd say), the front-back width is fine, but the depth top to bottom is 2 inches??? Why? Or is that top of case all the way down to bottom of handlebar mount? That depth is ridiculous!

-Garry


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

holy sheeet this is late 2016 folks
------------------------------------------------

you want to work on thermals and lights and experiment with
what works and what doesn't

if you do NOT have one of these, you are wasting a chunk of time
doing the math when you really should do the math but also
view the actual runtime facts

CompactPRO - High-Performance Thermal Imaging for Your Smartphone | Seek Thermal


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I checked back in the thread looking for the video GJHS posted and I see he removed it. I believe the prototype we saw was branded "Zanflare" as seen here posted on BLF. I only just now saw this BLF thread. GearBest has probably been too busy getting their flashlight produced instead of spending the effort on our bike light! :madmax:

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Hope GJHS will provide some more detailed information on weight and reasons for the extreme size increase. Seems like everyone agrees the new size would be wayyyyyy too big.
Mole


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

My input isn't that valuable - I wrote this light off after I saw it was going to a triple. That was already too big for me. I like the yinding/bt21 (or even scar) form factor and it seems that is plenty of light for me. ( one on bar, one on lid )

But worth noting for GB that another mtn. biker thinks making it bigger is a deal breaker.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

I think maybe someone is thinking big lumens=big sales. That's all well and good, but myself, I'd shoot for 2k lumens without any size increase or a marginal increase at the most. Not a deal breaker for me but in this case, smaller is better!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Discounting GoPro mounts here's what 4.4 x 2 inches looks like.
Mole


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Haha, great comparison

Nice collection of lights also, you don't even need this custom light!

I was thinking of pulling out my old halogen nitesun commuter special and measuring that. That might be smaller.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Dirt Road said:


> I think maybe someone is thinking big lumens=big sales. That's all well and good, but myself, I'd shoot for 2k lumens without any size increase or a marginal increase at the most. Not a deal breaker for me but in this case, smaller is better!


Around 2,000 lumens, reliable & simple operation, reasonably low price, reasonable size/weight. What's currently on the market that strikes that balance? I haven't been with this from the start, but those seem like the right design goals to be hitting in late 2016.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Sorry I'm a bit blunt but I was looking forward to something interesting coming from this. Not something that should be mounted on a light bar for a 4wd pickup

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Sorry I'm a bit blunt but I was looking forward to something interesting coming from this. Not something that should be mounted on a light bar for a 4wd pickup


This started in May, so I can understand your frustration.

Back to my question: Around 2,000 lumens, reliable & simple operation, reasonably low price, reasonable size/weight. What's currently on the market that strikes that balance?

I'm curious about what GB is up against if they hope to deliver a successful product for bikes, not off-road vehicles.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

flat said:


> Back to my question: Around 2,000 lumens, reliable & simple operation, reasonably low price, reasonable size/weight. What's currently on the market that strikes that balance?


Nothing. That was the whole point of this exercise. There's a huge gulf between the yinding and solarstorm x2 and mid/high end lights.

This also started a year and half ago, not this past May. This thread is round two. This was round one
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ustom-inexpensive-well-made-light-959005.html


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The problem is that something cheap and reliable yet performs decently is difficult at best. Like I mentioned before there is a lot of sacrifices that have to be made. Usually to quality aka reliability.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## OverTheHill (Dec 3, 2004)

I guess it comes down to the old Bontrager MTB adage "cheap, strong, light - pick two" or in this case "cheap, powerful, reliable".

The other problem is different people want different things from a light, some want throw others want more flood/spill. This is where Ituo have been so successful in using relatively cheap and readily available optics to allow people to easily modify their lights to suit their beam preference.

I would echo some of the previous comments though that there is a certain niche in the market at around 2000 lumens. Going more powerful just means bigger and heavier, including needing a larger battery pack as well. Anything more than this and you are just going to automatically rule out a lot of people, me included.

If you are in the market for a light like that then it's hard to see past the Ituo XP3 but I wouldn't class that light as cheap. It's just a bit better value for money than most of the big names. Two-and-a-half out of three ain't bad.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

varider said:


> Nothing. That was the whole point of this exercise. There's a huge gulf between the yinding and solarstorm x2 and mid/high end lights.
> 
> This also started a year and half ago, not this past May. This thread is round two. This was round one
> http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...ustom-inexpensive-well-made-light-959005.html


I didn't realize it was that long in the making. I'm sure the goalposts have moved WRT output.

I understand that there's nothing currently available that fits the parameters I laid out, but what comes closest? That example may help keep expectations in the realm of the possible. If the GB light is small/light, then cost may have to go up, or lumens may have to go down. Point being, something probably had to give, and size/weight seems to be what the design team has decided to alter.



OverTheHill said:


> I guess it comes down to the old Bontrager MTB adage "cheap, strong, light - pick two" or in this case "cheap, powerful, reliable".


Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle

Currently, Ituo seems to have hit the sweet spot WRT output, price, size/weight, reliability, and features. It'll be interesting to see if the GB light can slide between them and the cheap-os.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

It hasn't been that long really. It gets heavily discuss for a couple months, nothing materializes cause of some ridiculous matter on GBs end and the project dies. Especially when 90% of the people that read this thread (not the guys posting) expect $300 quality,performance and warranty for $50. The dumb "walmart" mentality.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> flat said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't realize it was that long in the making. I'm sure the goalposts have moved WRT output.
> ...


Don't think there's any way GB can beat overall value of any Ituo light but should be able to provide a light that out performs Ituo's smaller lights with less features and less (but acceptable considering costs) quality. Fairly narrow window in price between a Yinding (+ battery and charger)/BT40s kit and an Ituo Wiz20 or XP2 (when they come out with a 2-cell bat.).
Mole


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

MRMOLE said:


> Don't think there's any way GB can beat overall value of any Ituo light but should be able to provide a light that out performs Ituo's smaller lights with less features and less (but acceptable considering costs) quality. Fairly narrow window in price between a Yinding (+ battery and charger)/BT40s kit and an Ituo Wiz20 or XP2 (when they come out with a 2-cell bat.).
> Mole


That's what I was wondering. I don't know the market well at all, but the Wiz20 seems to be an excellent value. At USD$100 with a pair of good batteries, there doesn't seem to be much room to fit this GB light between the Wiz20 and the cheaper stuff.

Selling it in kit form would drive down the price, but that would open up a lot of room for assembly error, returns, etc.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I wouldn't compare it to the Wiz20 as that's a "self-contained" light. I'd compare it to the XP2 which is currently $104.99 light head only. There's still a large gap between a $25 Yinding / BT40S light head and the XP2 light head. IIRC GJHS's goal was about $40 for a light head only. Even $60 wouldn't be so bad. At +/- $70 & up I'd definitely just move up to the XP2 unless the custom light received very good reviews and checked out perfect. 

-Garry


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

garrybunk said:


> I wouldn't compare it to the Wiz20 as that's a "self-contained" light. I'd compare it to the XP2 which is currently $104.99 light head only. There's still a large gap between a $25 Yinding / BT40S light head and the XP2 light head. IIRC GJHS's goal was about $40 for a light head only. Even $60 wouldn't be so bad. At +/- $70 & up I'd definitely just move up to the XP2 unless the custom light received very good reviews and checked out perfect.
> 
> -Garry


Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

It's interesting that in a market rife with copying, this effort can't seem to get off the ground. I wonder what the breakdown of costs looks like WRT materials, design, and manufacturing.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> I wouldn't compare it to the Wiz20 as that's a "self-contained" light. I'd compare it to the XP2 which is currently $104.99 light head only. There's still a large gap between a $25 Yinding / BT40S light head and the XP2 light head. IIRC GJHS's goal was about $40 for a light head only. Even $60 wouldn't be so bad. At +/- $70 & up I'd definitely just move up to the XP2 unless the custom light received very good reviews and checked out perfect.
> 
> -Garry


Why? In this price range there's no such thing as a perfect light. Why would you discount this light just because it's batteries and charger are all in one unit that happens to cost less than the light-head of its separate battery sibling. The way I see it in this price range cost is king and especially if I only have $100 to spend I want to get the best light possible.
Mole


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

MRMOLE said:


> Why? In this price range there's no such thing as a perfect light. Why would you discount this light just because it's batteries and charger are all in one unit that happens to cost less than the light-head of its separate battery sibling. The way I see it in this price range cost is king and especially if I only have $100 to spend I want to get the best light possible.
> Mole


Assuming the GB head ends up being $60, would $40 cover a battery pack, cable, and reasonably good batteries? I know people that already own battery packs will mainly be concerned that the GB head accepts their cable connector, but GB has to be concerned with virgin buyers, too.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Like I said we have been working on this since March of 2015. Well, to be fair it's mostly GJHS doing all the work. 

Really all people wanted at the time was something like the Yinding, with an additional led to make it brighter, with good heat removal and the option to switch optics. Since we were starting from scratch we added the gopro mount, added a programmable driver and possibly a wired remote to our wish list. The programmable driver was already available on another light (sold by KD). None of this seemed to be to far outside of the realm of possibility. Actually it seemed to be pretty easy to do.

Other people may disagree with my assessment, but I'm sticking to it. 
If they can make a light like the Yinding for $35 with 2 led, then adding another led and charging $50 shouldn't be too hard. 

Maybe the problem is the other stuff we added, the programmable driver, gopro mount etc that made the light impossible to manufacture at our price point. So perhaps we need to get rid of that stuff and figure out how to add that stuff on our own. 

Anyway, right now we aren't getting much feedback from Gearbest. The link Garry shared shows them making a very nice flashlight. That's probably more profitable for them (bigger user base), so I'm not surprised they put the mountain bike light on the back burner. They may even decide it's not worth the hassle.

If had put $10 in an envelope for every month since this project started last year, then I would have enough money to buy a gloworm XS by now. I'm kicking myself on that realization. 

I've probably also spent more time typing in this thread than anyone else, so maybe I need to give it a rest. I'm not sure I'm even making a contribution anymore.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

varider said:


> Like I said we have been working on this since March of 2015.
> 
> Really all people wanted at the time was something like the Yinding, with an additional led to make it brighter, with good heat removal and the option to switch optics. Since we were starting from scratch we added the gopro mount, added a programmable driver and possibly a wired remote to our wish list. The programmable driver was already available on another light (sold by KD). None of this seemed to be to far outside of the realm of possibility. Actually it seemed to be pretty easy to do.
> 
> ...


You saved me the trouble of mining that information from eleven pages of posts, so there was some value to that ... for me. 

Seems like output, size/weight, and cost are the main three parameters, with the others slightly less important at the hoped-for price point. If GB is having problems integrating the extras, they should simply say so and get it out there. No big deal as long as they nail the main three.


~ 2000 lumens, size/weight comparable to the light heads discussed earlier
Hi/Med/Lo/Off from a single on-board button,
Threaded holes for user added mount
Common battery connector
~ $60

I guess that's tougher than it looks.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

flat said:


> Assuming the GB head ends up being $60, would $40 cover a battery pack, cable, and reasonably good batteries? I know people that already own battery packs will mainly be concerned that the GB head accepts their cable connector, but GB has to be concerned with virgin buyers, too.


Quite sure the light-head will come with a MS style connector. Battery, charger, GoPro mount should be in the $40-$50 range if you look for deals. Of course what we end up with for a light will effect battery compatibility. With the size quoted they may be shooting for 5000 lumens which would require a rather large battery. This is all speculation anyway. At the moment waiting to here back on our comments.
Mole


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

MRMOLE said:


> Quite sure the light-head will come with a MS style connector. Battery, charger, GoPro mount should be in the $40-$50 range if you look for deals. Of course what we end up with for a light will effect battery compatibility. With the size quoted they may be shooting for 5000 lumens which would require a rather large battery. This is all speculation anyway. At the moment waiting to here back on our comments.
> Mole


If they can hit $60 for the light, then they could probably bundle everything for around $100, which would be pretty compelling.

If they're shooting for higher output, I have a feeling the truckasaurus sizing will kill the project. Btw, I liked your group photo from earlier.

If they start talking about a twin barrel case, with a "flare mode" and an innovative universal mount, maybe we'll see the zanflare MTB soon.









20131114_165618.jpg Photo by ThirstyTurtle | Photobucket


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

flat said:


> You saved me the trouble of mining that information from eleven pages of posts, so there was some value to that ... for me.
> 
> Seems like output, size/weight, and cost are the main three parameters, with the others slightly less important at the hoped-for price point. If GB is having problems integrating the extras, they should simply say so and get it out there. No big deal as long as they nail the main three.
> 
> ...


Exactly right on your three parameters, at least in my opinion. We need an actual light that we can buy first of all. Mounts and optics we could change on our own. The driver would be tougher.

And yes I guess it is too hard to get this light made. It's obvious to us mountain bikers, but they don't seem to get it. They seem to be oblivious to innovating on the products already on market.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

MRMOLE said:


> Why? In this price range there's no such thing as a perfect light. Why would you discount this light just because it's batteries and charger are all in one unit that happens to cost less than the light-head of its separate battery sibling. The way I see it in this price range cost is king and especially if I only have $100 to spend I want to get the best light possible.
> Mole


I understand your logic. I just don't see the Wiz20 as comparable. To me "self-contained" lights are a different category. I even wrote off the Wiz20 as being more of a commuter light (though I've seen lately where I've been proven wrong). I guess if the user is looking for a helmet light than that rules out the Wiz20.

I think the programmable driver shouldn't be that hard to incorporate even at our price point. If it is for them than perhaps we need someone else working on it. Or perhaps they're wasting time trying to do other things with it like pushing for 4,000 lumens, add voice control, robotic massaging arms, etc . . .

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Can't speak for others but I've already written off this whole project. It's just taken too much time for me to take seriously. This has to be the longest thread about a lamp that doesn't yet exist. If there were actually people who had planned on buying one of these lamps I would think by now most have given up and decided to buy something else.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I hear you Cat. I'm glad I'm not in need of a new light and waiting on this one. I wouldn't recommend anyone wait on this one. If it materializes, ok, if not, it's still ok (even if a little disappointed). I am much less optimistic about this light than when it resurfaced.

-Garry


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

I gotta point out, a well built cheap KD10/Yinding type light, with endorsement from a well known forum, in the 30-40$ range, would kill the junk light gravy train.

_Looks at enormous pile of cheap light heads gathering dust_


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Sorry everyone, I have super busy the last few weeks. This has definitely taken way too long, something I have expressed a ton to Nefertari and she gets its. It isn't her pulling the strings and maybe yes the flashlight took the spotlight and manpower from the bike light. Yes also the timing is riculous since now is the time we needed the light, its getting dark earlier and earlier. Yes the light being bigger is also ridiculous, your opinion was necessary to get it through to the GB boss. I have asked once again for us to test the original and a giant part of the problem is the way they are testing the light and how hot it gets. They cleary don't understand how it will be used. This project will happen and I am pushing the stuff out of it. We are close to getting a quality light at a great price, once the BS clears. I too am growing tired of the delays. GB send us the flipping sample and stop wasting time .

I have a ZanFlare light coming so I can test to see if this company is legit and how the quality is. So far, that I have seen, its gotten good reviews.

I feel somewhat responsible since i started this mess, so sorry for the lack of more info and delays. I will see if I can push harder to get the sample so we can test it correctly and in real world conditions. Again my apologies for the mess.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

I don't believe anyone is blaming you for any of the delays. Thanks for taking a look at the flashlight to give us a rough idea if these folks really have the chops to do a bike light right.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

GJHS said:


> Sorry everyone, I have super busy the last few weeks. This has definitely taken way too long, something I have expressed a ton to Nefertari and she gets its. It isn't her pulling the strings and maybe yes the flashlight took the spotlight and manpower from the bike light. Yes also the timing is riculous since now is the time we needed the light, its getting dark earlier and earlier. Yes the light being bigger is also ridiculous, your opinion was necessary to get it through to the GB boss. I have asked once again for us to test the original and a giant part of the problem is the way they are testing the light and how hot it gets. They cleary don't understand how it will be used. This project will happen and I am pushing the stuff out of it. We are close to getting a quality light at a great price, once the BS clears. I too am growing tired of the delays. GB send us the flipping sample and stop wasting time .
> 
> I have a ZanFlare light coming so I can test to see if this company is legit and how the quality is. So far, that I have seen, its gotten good reviews.
> 
> I feel somewhat responsible since i started this mess, so sorry for the lack of more info and delays. I will see if I can push harder to get the sample so we can test it correctly and in real world conditions. Again my apologies for the mess.


Apologies not necessary. Looking forward to getting back on track with the project. Agree that test of the previous prototype is a good idea. Light-head body looks good and should provide plenty of heat-sink mass and surface area to provide proper cooling as long as lumen output remains reasonable. In your last post you mentioned GB wanted to up the output considerably, do you know what they had in mind?
Mole


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

They were thinking 3000 lumens. The problem, as i understand it, is in the way they are testing it and what they expect it to do. I am asking for us to have the original sample, which I am sure will be a good start to a great light. The case and size shouldn't need to be changed in my opinion, since we built in a bunch of heat transferring features.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

3000 lumens, no wonder their having issues. Though is it Chinese lumens or real lumens ?

That head design with a cheap driver isn't going to deal with those kinds of lumens. Down around 2000 would make way more sense. And be easier to achieve.

GJHS, NO ONE is blaming you, sure as the hell not me. But knowing what we do now, it explains why their is so many issues. The designers over there have no flipping clue what their doing.

And FYI Zanflare is GB house brand..... Plastered all over BLF.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Update, they are not changing the size. I am told that a sample should be ready by mid November. They heard your comments along with a whole bunch from me and have decided, I hope, not to change the size. We have the original specs now in case they try to sneak it past us.

My opinion is that until WE test it, this light is just a prototype. I see that GB cares about quality, they just seem stubborn and some what naive about how to make a good bike light. If they listen to our ideas and make the changes, this will still be a winner.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

GJHS said:


> Update, they are not changing the size. I am told that a sample should be ready by mid November. They heard your comments along with a whole bunch from me and have decided, I hope, not to change the size. We have the original specs now in case they try to sneak it past us.
> 
> My opinion is that until WE test it, this light is just a prototype. I see that GB cares about quality, they just seem stubborn and some what naive about how to make a good bike light. If they listen to our ideas and make the changes, this will still be a winner.


:thumbsup:


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks GJHS for the efforts.

Pretty much given up in this because they just don't get it so this is going to be a disaster when it's done. Their design team obviously has no clue and is just trying to copy or come up with some idiotic reasoning behind screwing it all up.

Now I do hope to be proven wrong but they are not inspiring confidence here.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

GJHS said:


> Update, they are not changing the size. I am told that a sample should be ready by mid November. They heard your comments along with a whole bunch from me and have decided, I hope, not to change the size. We have the original specs now in case they try to sneak it past us.
> 
> My opinion is that until WE test it, this light is just a prototype. I see that GB cares about quality, they just seem stubborn and some what naive about how to make a good bike light. If they listen to our ideas and make the changes, this will still be a winner.


Wow so mid-November. That is exciting. I live about 20 miles south of the Canadian border on the west coast. It gets dark early here in the winter. Looking forward to seeing how this light ends up. If they need any testers and reviewers I would be happy to take pics and try to take some videos out on the trails. I would be riding Galbraith with it.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

GJHS said:


> Update, they are not changing the size. I am told that a sample should be ready by mid November. They heard your comments along with a whole bunch from me and have decided, I hope, not to change the size. We have the original specs now in case they try to sneak it past us.
> 
> My opinion is that until WE test it, this light is just a prototype. I see that GB cares about quality, they just seem stubborn and some what naive about how to make a good bike light. If they listen to our ideas and make the changes, this will still be a winner.


Ready for our Mid-November update. I know your busy so when you get a chance please fill us in on the latest activities on this light project. Thanks for your time and effort.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

In the meantime while waiting for this custom bike light, GearBest (Nefertari) has sent me their Zanflare F1 custom flashlight to evaluate to give us some idea of what they can provide us. My testing is done (as much testing as I could make time for), however I've been struggling to find the time to post up my "review" (work has been keeping me quite busy lately). I promise I will get it posted as soon as I can; I feel bad it has taken this long already. If things go well tonight I might even get it posted tonight. In the meantime I'll just say that I'm impressed.

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Maybe they're stalling because they already know that the ITUO XP3 has stole much of their thunder ( so to speak ) and perhaps they know that much of the market for such a lamp is now already taken. Of course if they produce the lamp that was originally proposed and sell it at a decent price they will find out that those fears are without merit. People not willing to spend the bigger bucks will buy these without hesitation if the product is of decent quality. 

The Zanflare F1 torch looks interesting. I wouldn't necessarily use it for biking but looks like it would be a good torch for basic all-around use. I might treat myself to one for Christmas. I could use such a torch for work. Looks like it has some throw.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Looks decent but kind of expensive being all the options out there. And talk about over exaggerating specs. 1240 lumens with a 550hr runtime. WTF??? But to be expected, looks to be a decent light but theirs cheaper options or better for not much, more money.

But then too garrys opinions on it may make it a decent option.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> The Zanflare F1 torch looks interesting. I wouldn't necessarily use it for biking but looks like it would be a good torch for basic all-around use. I might treat myself to one for Christmas. I could use such a torch for work. Looks like it has some throw.


Its such a flooded market and its changing so fast, I can't see why they want to get into it now. With so many unsold lights becoming obsolete prices and profit margins are going to drop. ArmyTek among others are pumping out single and double 18650 1500+ lumen XHP35 lights and the Budget Light Forums Q8 is in the prototype stage, once the other manufacturers react who's going to want a measly XP-L?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Looks decent but kind of expensive being all the options out there. And talk about over exaggerating specs. *1240 lumens with a 550hr runtime. WTF???* But to be expected, looks to be a decent light but theirs cheaper options or better for not much, more money.
> 
> But then too garrys opinions on it may make it a decent option.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


If you scroll down the page you will see they are quoting the run-time on the "moonlight" mode. Nothing unusual about that.



arc said:


> Its such a flooded market and its changing so fast, I can't see why they want to get into it now. With so many unsold lights becoming obsolete prices and profit margins are going to drop. ArmyTek among others are pumping out single and double 18650 1500+ lumen XHP35 lights and the Budget Light Forums Q8 is in the prototype stage, once the other manufacturers react who's going to want a measly XP-L?


Keep in mind the Chinese companies can get stuff built for dirt cheap and then sell it overseas to make a profit. Not everyone needs or wants the newest/greatest or brightest emitters. Not everyone wants a torch the size of a Campbell's soup can that has 4/18650 cells and that uses multiple emitters that can output 3K lumen in a wide beam pattern. Different strokes for different folks.

The Armytek XHP35 lamps ( torches ) are interesting. Just keep in mind output isn't everything. Size, weight, UI, beam pattern, needed throw.....all these factors determine the usability of a torch depending on the needs of the person buying. I'd like to have a torch similar to the Armytek ( Wizard pro ) XHP35 headlamp except without the periscope type design. _The efficiency of the XHP35 emitter looks to be quite impressive._  Could make an excellent choice for bar torch if the diffusion lens doesn't entirely kill the throw. With name brand torches you have to consider the higher price and if it's worth paying the extra money. Without seeing the beam pattern and "Knowing" ( from reliable user reviews ) that the lamp can deliver what you want it would be hard to lay down $90 and hope you get something that meets your needs. With the cheaper Chinese lamps you can afford to roll the dice and hope you get something usable. If it flops then your out maybe $15-$30. Case in point; I bought a Convoy S3 18650 torch with NW Xm-L2 emitter from Gearbest just before summer. Forget what I paid, maybe $16. Super small for 18650, good beam pattern off the bars and with a choice of two UI sub-menus, 3 or 5 mode. Medium mode is bright enough to ride and get me out of the woods without having to poke along and should run 3 or more hours at that output. Hard to beat for the price. Makes a great back-up light.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Forget what I paid, maybe $16. Super small for 18650, good beam pattern off the bars and with a choice of two UI sub-menus, 3 or 5 mode. Medium mode is bright enough to ride and get me out of the woods without having to poke along and should run 3 or more hours at that output. Hard to beat for the price. Makes a great back-up light.


This is what I was getting at, why go into the tail end of the market now. There's already lights that match that performance for less money or make thousands of lumens for the same money. Why invest the time and effort to recreate something that's been done so many times before when everyone else is already on the next big thing?

Same with this bike light, dragging their feet when the xm-l/xpl are getting long in the tooth. All the discussions and prodding to get it done and the market will have left them behind by the time they finish it. Take a minute and compare run times of a couple of these lights, keep in mind these lights are all single cell boosted lights.

https://www.armytek.com/products/flashlights/hunting-and-military/armytek-partner-c2-pro/

And they are already clearing out a bunch of xml and xpl lights.

https://www.armytek.com/promotions.html#super_sale

They also have some placeholder web pages for bike lights, wish I knew what they have up their sleeve. I don't know much about Armytek, seems like they've had a lot of growing pains but are trying to get better. They have competitors that they are trying to catch up to, and other competitors are busy catching up to them or getting ahead. The XP4 is right around the corner and wireless Gloworms are not too far away. Gearbest needs to step up and get this light done soon.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Review of GearBest's Zanflare F1 Flashlight (images are clickable):



This review was performed concentrating on build quality and features in light (pun intended) of the forthcoming GearBest custom built bike light. This review is NOT to be considered a comprehensive review. GearBest provided this light free of charge and I have no vested interest. I have also stayed away from all other reviews / postings about this light during my evaluation and testing (heck, I hardly even looked at the product page!).

The product page can be found here: zanflare F1 LED Flashlight-39.99 Online Shopping| GearBest.com . GearBest sent me the cool white version  but a neutral white version is available. As the product page shows, the light utilizes an XP-L emitter and has 7 modes via 2 mode groups. Group 1: moon, low, medium, high, flare (i.e. turbo), and group 2: Strobe & S.O.S. The light has two switches, a standard reverse-clicky for on-off and a side momentary switch for mode changes. Momentary switch lights usually have parasitic drain (i.e. they drain the battery down even when "off"), but this one uses a tailcap switch which completely shuts off current flow. The tailcap switch can also be used for signaling (i.e. flashing the light on & off) since using it doesn't cause mode changes. The momentary switch has a very nice feel to it and makes perfect contact every use. Removing the ring around the switch reveals that the switch is surrounded by a rubber (or silicone?) boot. Upon closer inspection I also found that the tailcap switch is also surrounded by a rubber (or silicone?) boot. The tailcap switch is quite hard to fully depress which I believe is due to the rubber boot. The overall feel of the light is good and solid, very similar to the well respected Convoy lights. Tailcap threads are about the same as Convoy quality, which are a huge step above the average cheap budget lights. The light also appears to use an AR coated lens. A removeable clip is provided which works pretty well. It clips on strong, however it's not a deep carry pocket clip as I'd prefer so the end of the light sticks up about a half-inch. One issue with the clip attached is that it makes it difficult to screw the tailcap back on as it is pushing against the body as you thread together. The tailcap has a hole for a lanyard (included) and has a very small "glass breaker". This "glass breaker" didn't bother me in my use and handling and can be completely ignored.

Zanflare F1 next to my Convoy S2 EDC:


Pocket clipped:


Tailcap w/glass breaker:


Thread comparison to the S2:


I almost forgot, the light comes well packaged in a very nice box with the light set in a nice soft foam inset. Under this inset are an english manual, extra o-rings, USB charging cord, lanyard, pocket clip, and a neoprene holster. This "holster" is a bit odd as it's more like a padded carrying case. I wouldn't personally use it on my side as a holster.



The "holster":




Manual:






Light Operation: The light always turns on in group 1. Press-n-hold the momentary switch for 2 seconds to change to group 2. A single tap of the momentary switch cycles through the modes in each group. From group 2 you can either press-n-hold for 2 seconds or double-click to exit back to group 1. If you turn off the light while in group 2 it will turn back on in group 1. Mode memory occurs instantly and upon returning from group 2 the light will be in the same group 1 mode you were previously in. Mode memory also holds even while removing the battery (though it is unknown if this memory is lost after significant time has passed). GearBest's website seems to indicate that flare mode (i.e. turbo) is set to a 30 second timer after which it kicks back to high (or was it previous mode, I can't rememeber), but in my testing it seemed based on temperature sensing. It could be that the first "kick back" was 30 seconds, but subsequent kick backs were tripped by temperature because I was seeing the "kick back" occur at various times.

The reflector appears to be smooth at first glance but upon closer inspection it appears to be ever so slightly textured (i.e. very light orange peel). The beam still shows rings when white wall hunting, but they aren't really noticable in real world use (esp. outdoors). The beam is pretty typical for a small reflectored light with an XM-L2 / XP-L emitter; it's mostly floody with some decent throw. The head of the light has some shallow fins around the LED mounting area. I tried to unscrew the bezel and the head and neither section would unscrew no matter how hard I tried. I am sure the threads are glued. I even scratched up the head and bezel pretty good trying to use pliers to force them to unscrew. This is very disappointing as it means I can't inspect the LED mounting surface, inspect for use of thermal compound, or inspect the driver. It also means modders will move on to other lights which would be easier to deal with.





Rings in the beam:


Scratches after trying to remove the bezel and head:


One feature of this light is the built in battery charging. The ring behind the momentary switch unscrews to reveal a microUSB port and an indicator light. First of all this ring has o-rings at both ends to keep water out of the USB port. The ring screws/unscrews very smoothly and appears to seat well against the o-rings. When you first plug your USB cord in (assuming the other end is plugged into a power source and your plugging into the flashlight while it is off) the XP-L emitter will flash quickly to indicate that you need to power the flashlight on with the tailcap switch. Failure to switch the tailcap switch on would mean you wouldn't have a closed circuit to the battery for it to charge. The flashing of the XP-L was a nice way of getting your attention as a reminder. Once the battery is charging the little LED indicator light will be red until the battery reaches full charge at which time it turns green. Using a 12 watt 2.4 amp USB wall adapter for power, I measured a 0.87A charge rate. In my opinion this charge rate is decent considering it will be used on a wide range of cells as well as not heating up the cells during charging (especially since the cells are trapped inside of an air tight chamber). The light does appear to use a CC\CV charging algorithm as I see charge rate diminishing as the cell reaches full charge. The charging stopped when current reached 0.098A with the cell measuring 4.20 afterwards. At the end of charging when the indicator LED turned green, the charge current was 0; it completely cut-off charging. I'm usually not a fan of flashlights with built-in chargers, but this one does seem to be well done.

Charger port concealed:


Charger port accessed (indicator LED just around the right side):


GearBest claims the driver in this light provides constant current regulation. In my testing I believe this is actually true. I was seeing tailcap currents rise as battery voltage lowered until the battery reached a point where it was too low to provide the additional current. The light has working low voltage protection too. According to GearBest, when the battery reaches 2.8v it starts flashing at regular intervals until it reaches a "critical voltage level" where it shuts down. I couldn't measure voltage under load (since the battery is inside the light and I can unscrew the body to get access to the driver), but it does appear to trigger the low voltage protection (flashes) around 2.8v to 3.0v where it drops to 0.13A output level and flashes a slow flash every 60 seconds. Once at this level you can't change modes. This is more or less an "emergency" mode to "get to safety" / replace the battery. I let my light go for 16 minutes in this mode and it continued flashing every 60 seconds but never shut off completely. This is likely because at the low 0.13A output it would take an awfully long time for the battery to drop to "critical voltage level" and shut off. At least the light doesn't just cut-off on you without warning. I'm assuming the "critical voltage level" is 2.5v (since "low voltage reminder" is set to 2.8v) which is at the very lower limit for high-quality batteries, but too low for average or less batteries. I would have desired "low voltage reminder" trigger at about 3.0v with the "critical voltage level" set at 2.8v.

I measured the following current levels from a very nearly full charged average 18650 battery (Sony unprotected US18650GR):

Turbo: 3.10A
High: 1.20A
Medium: 0.53A
Low: 0.11A
Moon: 0.002A

These equate to a mode spacing of 0.06%, 3.5%, 17%, 39%, & 100% which I believe works quite well. Surpisingly the boost from high to turbo is not that noticeable (remember, rule of thumb is that it takes 4 times the lumens for the eye to see something as being twice as bright). In fact many times it is hard to tell if the light is in Turbo or not (i.e. did your double-click actually work to activate turbo). In my testing I found that double-clicking to turbo didn't always work. I fould the light would jump two modes instead of registering as a double-click. It was a bit of an annoyance, but usually a second or third attempt got it to work. I did not test current draw on any "high-drain" batteries to see if I could measure more than 3.10A (I didn't have them fully charged). I don't know if turbo is current regulated, but my guess is that it's "direct-drive" and will output as much as your battery can handle with the voltage sag. Personally I don't like moon modes, but for those that do this light does provide a true moon mode (some lights advertise a moon mode but in reality they are not at all moon level).

I did some brief testing of how the light handled heat by attaching a temperature probe against the fins of the head while running the light in turbo and bringing it back into Turbo if I noticed it drop it's level. The highest I could register was only 90 degrees Fahrenheit. It did reach 86 degrees after only 30 seconds, but seemed to level out at about 90 degrees until I quit testing at 4 minutes. This seems a bit too low for their temperature regulation setting (even considering the emitter will be hotter than the body), but it's possible I didn't get very accurate results (perhaps I wasn't running in turbo mode as much as I thought I was).

I measured lux output in all modes in my D.I.Y. 12 inch round styrofoam sphere and converted those readings to approximate lumens using a calculated multiplier based on other lights with known or previously tested values. These results should be considered general ballpark figures as I make no claim to their accuracy. (I need to spend more time with my sphere getting myself setup with a better "calibration check light".) Outputs were measured with a near fully charged battery. Below are approximate lumens listed for each mode at both start and after 30 seconds.

Turbo: 939 @ start, 894 @ 30 seconds
High: 478 @ start, 476 @ 30 seconds
Medium: 243 @ start, 243 @ 30 seconds
Low: 50 @ start, 50 @ 30 seconds
Moon: 0.5 @ start, 0.5 @ 30 seconds

GearBest lists this light as "1240 lumens". I have a suspicion that this was simply based on an XP-L's output at about 3A without taking into account losses for the lens and reflector (i.e. not an "out-the-front" value).

So there you have it. Overall I think it is a very nice quality light that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend. I do think they were too conservative with the turbo timeout / thermal protection (well they should have dropped the timeout altogether and just used the thermal protection - IF it does indeed use a timer based timeout). The ringy beam is also a bit disappointing and I'd like to see that addressed. The price might be a little too high at $39.99 (for an unknown brand at least), but the current flash sale price at $29.99 is a good value. Their work on this light shows me that they should be capable of producing a very nice bike light for us. We may have to get them to tweak some settings (modes, low voltage protection, thermal protection levels, etc. . .), but I think we can come away with something well made and reasonable for a budget offering.

My complete PhotoBucket Gallery of this light can be viewed here: Zanflare F1 - GearBest Review Light by Garry Bunk | Photobucket

-Garry

(Editted 11/23/2016 9:20AM EST (14:20 UTC - added photos and minor text revisions.)


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Note: I've edited the above review post with photos and made a few minor text revisions. The only significant thing I changed was about the quality of the threads. I'd say the threads are on par with my Convoy lights (I think the fact that my S2 threads are well lubed made them feel like they were better than the Zanflare's).

-Garry


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Update, Nefertari (our GearBest rep.) has just informed me that the prototype (this custom bike light) has passed the supplier's heat transfer testing and things are moving forward!

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> garrybunk said:
> 
> 
> > Update, Nefertari (our GearBest rep.) has just informed me that the prototype (this custom bike light) has passed the supplier's heat transfer testing and things are moving forward!
> ...


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Yawn..... Wake me up in 2017 when this thing hits the market.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Dirt Road said:


> Yawn..... Wake me up in 2017 when this thing hits the market.


For sure! This is someone's back burner job. I'm pretty sure that I can go from a clean design in CAD to a finished light in a few weeks just working on it in spare time.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Update, Nefertari (our GearBest rep.) has just informed me that the prototype (this custom bike light) has passed the supplier's heat transfer testing and things are moving forward!
> 
> -Garry


Cree recently announced the XP-L2, brighter with lower VF. Would it be worthwhile to wait for it to become available?

New tech and being one of the brightest helmet lights around would help drive sales. They would also be able to keep it in production longer before it becomes obsolete.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The problem with that is latest amd greatest LEDs are expensive right out of the gate. LEDs alone would drive the price up quite a bit by doing that. Which is why you see really the only upgrades with most companies is the bin of the emitter they use. Cost is the same but they gain a little output.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Mouser Canada doesn't have stock yet but they are showing the new XP-L to cost 33 cents Canadian more per led. Reconfiguring the driver and playing with optics if the beam is a bit different will add development costs to the light as well.

Most of us already have lights for this season and probably won't buy this light unless it blows away what we currently have. Even if it costs an extra ten bucks putting out ten percent more light it's going to tempt more people. 

If it gets enough attention the next generation of Ituo, Gemini and Gloworm's won't be just a bin upgrade. I'd love to have a wireless XP3 that puts out close to XP4 amounts of light. Imagine how many of those you could sell.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There is a lot of technical behind designs but the new xp-l isn't some "life changing" upgrade sadly. Not like LEDs were to HID/halogen.

It will be a long while before we see a triple that will be produced that pumps outs those lumens. After optics losses and such your still pushing 3A per emitter, imagine the current draw and heat to deal with at that point. Its why more LEDs are used to pump out the lumens. Mich easier to deal with a lot less heat to keep light heads small and light weight. A triple (even xp-l2) would be bigger, heavier, less run time than the xp4 to produce the same lumens.

What something like the xp-l2 allows for is a bit better run time and noticeable cooler operating temps to produce the same lumens in a light that currently uses xm-l2.

Xp-l itself runs cooler for said lumens, enough for us to notice, but not a big enough jump to justify the expense of retooling for xp sized PCBs and the increased cost of emitters. 33 cents doesnt sound like much but look at the volume required. That adds up fast. And look at its cost versus xm-l2 U3 and U4 bin.

Now no driver change is needed as drivers do not monitor voltage because voltage of LEDs changes constantly during operation. Driver regulates current to the LEDs.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

My memory isn't the greatest but I thought this light was going to based on XP-L's pumping out as many lumens as practically possible. From what I remember of the press release the XP-L2 is supposed to have lower thermal resistance and lower forward voltage. Seven percent more light and fifteen percent more lumens per watt. If they don't properly optimize the driver its not worth doing, the increase in output will be barely noticeable.

You know more about junction temperatures and optical losses than I do but 2300 lumens seems reasonable for three of these driven hard. 2600 should be possible if someone nails the design. Careful choice of beam pattern and out on the trails it would not look too far behind where the XP4 is now. Might wind up being a bit heavier than an XP3 but would still work on a helmet.

I'd never use a light like that on high much, at 1500 lumens it would run nice and cool and drop the junction temperature into a more efficient range. It won't be a huge jump in performance or efficiency over what's available now, but it's a good step forward.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

To optimize a driver like your talking is well beyond what these places can or are going to be willing to do. That gets expensive but it's still going to have almost 0 effect on lumen output. Only gain in a high efficiency driver is thermal efficiency. Driver itself will run cooler which would help case temperatures. But vF of the LEDs has 0 to do with the driver. 

And LED is controller by how many amps the driver supplies to the emitter. As more amps are delivered the vF rises. But as the temperature of the LED junction increases, the vF decreases. This is why LEDs are controlled by current, driver needed to control vF of multiple LEDs would be extremely complex in comparison.

2300 lumens isn't driven hard at all. Your talking 800-900lumens per LED then losses due to optics and such to yield 2300. Which is what the xp3 runs at (I tested it slightly above that). XP4 is 3100 lumens (closer to 3200) so again, 800 lumens per emitter. So about 2.4A supplied current per emitter.

Now saying at optimal you get an avg of 1200 lumens at max rated current of 3amps. New emitter well say 1300 max at 3A. So your having to push a triple emitter light to 3A per emitter to compensate for losses to get 3100 lumen light. So power requirement increased to that of something as big as the xp4 would require a light head the same size or bigger to handle the increased heat generation because the harder you push emitters the less efficient they are.

Now what you can gain by a "direct emitter swap" from say xm-l2 high bin (u3 for neutral white right now I think is still the highest) is a few percentage poi ts of increased lumen output, cooler junction and head temps, and a little longer run time before dropping regulation.

An optimized light for these emitters is going to be costly. A lot more design work and component cost per unit. They can't even make these cheap lights with any form respectable driver efficiency (well neither can Gemini or magicshine for that matter. Talking ituo and glowworm to see that performance level). In this case xp-l2 is just a giant waste that no one but us light nerds would even notice or care about. **** that can't even figure out the most basic part, the design of the head itself.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Vancbiker said:


> ......I'm pretty sure that I can go from a clean design in CAD to a finished light in a few weeks just working on it in spare time.


I decided to see what it took to do a new design in between the other stuff I've got going on. We'll see if I beat the GB custom to completion.

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/new-light-1029624.html


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## rad3144 (Sep 28, 2016)

It would be great if a company like Anker tackled this. They seem to build great products that are well received at a very competitive price point. They even have a couple of flashlights that look pretty good. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KH2W55...17145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=B01KH2W558

Just dreaming probably.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Already have a quality branded version that's properly priced. Ituo XP3 except with wireless remote. Its wired but removable instead.

That's what these guys are trying to do, cheap build. Other companies have stuff like what anker would release.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Looking forward to seeing the Vanc light going forward. Just proves that this custom light is a back burner project from the start. Kinda funny that a one man show (with a lot of skills) can whip out a light in short order, while we wait for the custom light that seems to have stalled.....


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*Winners & losers*

Yinding is the big winner here. No better in every way BT21 as competition and delayed release of this new triple leaves Yinding as only reliable player for a cheap helmet light. Lots of losers though. 1) People in the market for a good performing very low priced helmet light that can't justify the jump in price to a Ituo (which would make them a winner IMO). 2) Gearbest since this triple will be a house brand for them and I assume they will make more profit on them compared to the Yinding. 3) Nitefighter/Revtronic who would have controlled this segment of the market for the last year if they had chosen to produce the "S" version BT21 instead of discontinuing it. Rumors of a re-release of the BT21 and the eventual release of the Gearbest triple is good news for us. We'll see which one will go to market first and take advantage of the lack of competition.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Dirt Road said:


> Looking forward to seeing the Vanc light going forward. Just proves that this custom light is a back burner project from the start. Kinda funny that a one man show (with a lot of skills) can whip out a light in short order, while we wait for the custom light that seems to have stalled.....


They better get going. I've got another operation done....

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/new-light-1029624-2.html#post12952862


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

I'll put my money on Vancbiker being done before this custom light. Nice looking build Vancbiker!

This custom light build is turning into a joke. Gearbest is just moving too slowly on this. They should have sent us the prototype over the summer. We could have easily told them what else what needed to be done and we would have had the light by October. Instead they wanted to perfect it first and then send it out after that. That's not how it should have been done in my opinion. We would have better off designing every nut and bolt of this light and just having them build it. 

We won't see this light before March, after daylight savings time kicks in and most people won't be buying lights. It will be enthusiasts only. Not too many people start night riding in they middle of January, after the holidays, as that's the coldest part of the year. 

I agree that the Yinding is a big winner right now. They are also a big loser because they should have built us a triple two years ago when we first asked them. They haven't tried to innovate at all. Even the switch to neutral white leds was do to the wishes of this forum. They would be rolling in money right now if they weren't so stubborn.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

My money is on we might see this light for next fall, if we're lucky

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

varider said:


> I'll put my money on Vancbiker being done before this custom light.


Couldn't work on the new deck for the house since it's snowing here. Got my buddy's stump grinder clutch rebuilt. So I guess there's time to get another step done. No word from GB?

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/new-light-1029624-2.html#post12956955

Won't be too long and I'll have to break out the soldering iron.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

~4 weeks worth of spare time, amounting to probably ~30 hours and the new light is done.

New light- Mtbr.com

I would be surprised if the GB custom light ever gets made. Too bad as so many put a lot of suggestions and information into their hands.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS said:


> Update, they are not changing the size. I am told that a sample should be ready by mid November. They heard your comments along with a whole bunch from me and have decided, I hope, not to change the size. We have the original specs now in case they try to sneak it past us.
> 
> My opinion is that until WE test it, this light is just a prototype. I see that GB cares about quality, they just seem stubborn and some what naive about how to make a good bike light. If they listen to our ideas and make the changes, this will still be a winner.


Could you please try to wake Gearbest up from their slumber, it's been almost three months since we've heard anything from them.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Wrong time to communicate with Chinese companies...


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Chinese New Year is in full swing, a month long vacation for the folks that produce 93% of the worlds electronics.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

A month? I had no idea it was that long. I always thought it was a week or two.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I think both are right from what Ive experienced. Everything is practically shut down for 2 weeks, takes another 2 weeks to get caught up. Though I think dirt is right in that they have celebrations going on for like a month, most things are only shut down a couple weeks.

Must be rough lol, hard enough to get more than a few holidays actually off work every year, much less weeks worth for all us here in the states.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Well they hardly get paid, so at least they have some decent time off.


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## Ofroad'bent (Jul 10, 2010)

I also suspect they work their butts off at a pace we couldn't hack. The long time off is so they can take a train ride all across the country to visit back home, before returning to the industrial area they work.



RAKC Ind said:


> I think both are right from what Ive experienced. Everything is practically shut down for 2 weeks, takes another 2 weeks to get caught up. Though I think dirt is right in that they have celebrations going on for like a month, most things are only shut down a couple weeks.
> 
> Must be rough lol, hard enough to get more than a few holidays actually off work every year, much less weeks worth for all us here in the states.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

The job I had for the last few years I doubt most could keep pace. Plastics blow molding plant.... right here in the middle of the states. Not a big place. 

Not only extremely fast paced, but during the warm months going on break and going outside when it's mid 90s and high humidity feels like walking into air conditioning.

72hr weeks are common. 52+ is normal.

It's sad we expect that were better off for work than places like China but not so much. Still "pockets" where everything labor rights battles have been over looked, even the laws do little to protect you. And fear for your job if you get hurt because of their negligence.

Some of us understand what they deal with, so that's why I crack jokes about all the time off they get every year. That job I did get about a week or so off for Xmas/new years because it was usually really slow. So it was unpaid but was nice to get away. Especially after 60-72 hour weeks for the months leading up to it. All for $13/hr (and I was one of the higher paid people ppl on the floor)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## GJHS (Jul 10, 2013)

Final Update: At the time of this post, GearBest has quietly stopped any production of this light. I was told end of last year that they were making it and it would be ready soon. In that time a new rep came on board and I am now told they decided to not make the light.

I think that was wise since the light was getting further and further away from the original idea and I put way too much free work into trying to keep it quality. The last battle was over them adding reflectors rather than the optics they promised.

I worked hard to ensure the items that I posted from GB were quality and under Dora, GB brought some great things to MTBR like the Original Yinding, a bunch of Neutral lights and even the Fenix Battery boxes. 

They say they may decide to build it again. I can truly say I wont be a part of it nor any new GB projects. I have been super busy in my big boy life and need to find time to actually ride.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Thank you for trying GJHS! Enjoy the ride, that's why we are here....


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Well at least we can all stop wondering what's going on. As far as I can tell their Zanflare flashlight isn't exactly taking off in sales either. (I do think that is a very nice light, but price is hurting them.)

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

GJHS said:


> I worked hard to ensure the items that I posted from GB were quality and under Dora, GB brought some great things to MTBR like the Original Yinding, a bunch of Neutral lights and even the Fenix Battery boxes.
> 
> .


Thanks for these things and more importantly for most of us some things that happened as a result of your efforts. GearBest weren't the only ones listening to our suggestions and I feel they (our suggestions) had a lot to do with the lights we got from Ituo. Ituo may not have followed the "cheap" route but gave us what we wanted built with premium parts at a very reasonable price and many of us have benefited with ownership of these lights. We're still left with the hole between the basic and solid Yinding and the higher priced/performing Ituo lights that the Gearbest triple would have nicely filled but hope is not lost. Rumors of the rerelease of the BT21 should again provide a high performance light to those on a tight budget. So thanks again, your efforts are very much appreciated.
Mole


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

GJHS thanks for putting in all the effort. We've been trying to get this done for two years now and it's definitely dead. What a waste. Like you said there's more to life than this BS. 

Those boneheads at Gearbest can't get such a simple thing done. We practically instructed them step by step on how to make the perfect budget light. It would have surely been a best seller. Not to mention how many times we had to reexplain things to them. 

It seems that they are constantly rotating their personal, effectively rebooting the project multiple times. If they had sent us that first prototype and let us actually help in the design process than this would have been done months ago. But they just wouldn't do it. 

Like MrMole said, we had an impact on the ITUO offering. Actually we basically just gave them free instructions on how to make the perfect light. It turned out to just be more expensive then we thought it would be. At the time I felt we didn't get much of a reward for our efforts either. 

Next time one of these vendors/manufacturers comes along we should just refer them back to this thread and tell them to just figure it out from there. I definitely won't be making this type of hands on effort. They can figure it out on their own. It's not that hard.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Looks like we have some activity. I was browsing BLF and found a thread on a new Zanflare bike light. I don't have time to research as I'm heading to work. Can't believe nobody from gearbest let us know.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Hmmm, https://www.zanflare.com/copy-of-vct-slb-056-led-motion-se


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Hmmm, https://www.zanflare.com/copy-of-vct-slb-056-led-motion-se


Interesting. I like the design of the lamp body but unfortunately the UI looks like the simply 1-2-3 LED for each mode change....OR , so it seems. At this point I'm really not sure because the ad mentions three different settings. It could be the UI is letting the user choose "how many LED's are on at one time" (?) If so that would be kind'a cool. The ad seems to indicate three different outputs for low-med-high, all depending on the number of LED's that are on. If I'm understanding this correctly that means you can set low mode to 1,2, or 3 led's. Whatever, I'd like some clarification on how the UI works.

Too bad they aren't offering these with a NW emitter option. If they did I might buy one. Also looks like they are using OP reflectors instead of optics. That might make the beam pattern a bit tight but should make a nice helmet light though.

Maybe we could get the seller to provide a NW version. I'd be in for one as long as the UI allows the user to set the lamp so all of the emitters are on at the same time for all modes. There is a contact page if anyone is interested. ( edit; I'd also like a "lamp head only" option )


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Yeah it seems odd nobody from GearBest let us know. And it's almost like they abandoned "our" custom light and did what they could to salvage the product as something sellable. I don't have much hope for it though. That UI sounds very odd and I wouldn't want to be playing with turning 1-2-3 LEDs on/off. 

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

From reading the UI description to the left of the light output chart I'm thinking the UI is a lot like a Ravemen except you don't have to scroll through the flash mode (seperate mode on B3). I says 3 intensity/power levels which I interpret as low-med-hi. Then it says 3 separate modes which I think means 1, 2, or 3 emitters operating at a time. Disappointed in the use of reflectors but maybe possible to retrofit optics. I'm also thinking the $63 is a light-head only kit since I see no mention of any battery. I tried to order the B3 but couldn't get past the "order now" button so assuming the lights not available yet and maybe the reason we've heard nothing from Gearbest. B3 not listed on the Gearbest or Dealsmachine website. Was thinking there might be more information in the BLF thread DR mentioned but have been unable to find it.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Here's the link to the BLF thread I found: Any one know the Zanflare B3 bike light | BudgetLightForum.com . I'm going to post that this looks like what started as our MTBR custum light.

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> garrybunk said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the link to the BLF thread I found: Any one know the Zanflare B3 bike light | BudgetLightForum.com . I'm going to post that this looks like what started as our MTBR custum light.
> ...


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You would honestly be suprised at how many people think that these high powered lights are this small and self contained. But when you think about it, most think of a flashlight or your basic "commuter" lights. 

Its something we know at a glance what were dealing with but many only know flashlight style lights (especially on a flashlight forum)

It doesnt surprise me it was abandoned here, we have basic requirements and know what is needed in a bike light. BLF can produce not only numbers (bigger following) but they cant easily call out issues like the UI and an thermal issues right away. Taking away some of the headaches of design.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> From reading the UI description to the left of the light output chart I'm thinking the UI is a lot like a Ravemen except you don't have to scroll through the flash mode (seperate mode on B3). I says 3 intensity/power levels which I interpret as low-med-hi. Then it says 3 separate modes which I think means 1, 2, or 3 emitters operating at a time. Disappointed in the use of reflectors but maybe possible to retrofit optics. I'm also thinking the $63 is a light-head only kit since I see no mention of any battery.* I tried to order the B3 but couldn't get past the "order now" button so assuming the lights not available yet *and maybe the reason we've heard nothing from Gearbest. B3 not listed on the Gearbest or Dealsmachine website. Was thinking there might be more information in the BLF thread DR mentioned but have been unable to find it.
> Mole


Yeah, I tried it just now and it seems they want you to register ( log-in ) with their website before you can place an order. You can also reach them on the contact link I listed before but either way they are going to get your e-mail address.

I might go ahead and register. Worse that can happen is I'll get their news letters ( spam ) but at least I'd know if I can buy one or not. Not going to buy one though unless I know for sure that it has a mode setup with all LED's on for all modes. I already tried to look up the instruction manual but it's not listed on the web yet.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I revisited the zanflare B3 website again and noticed they have added a picture showing a power cable. Also now indicate "battery not included" and a recommendation of using 6000ma or larger battery.
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

continued from last post; Well I registered. The website is clothing oriented. No listing of the bike lamp anywhere. ...Might be that the website is not quite up and running yet.


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## eTrex_FSR (Dec 18, 2009)

A remote would be nice. I do not see any info in that.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

For me the 1 2 or 3 led's on is really not useful. I'd rather have all 3 always on and be able to program the output levels.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> MRMOLE wrote:
> I have a couple of questions for you (Zanflare).
> 
> 1) When are we going to be able to buy this light?
> ...


Someone from Zanflare has been answering questions on the BLF. Here's a copy of the response to my first BLF post.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/b3-your-night-owl-bike-light#/

I have no connection to it (except suggestions in this thread  ).


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Hmm . . . interesting. Hard to tell, but it looks like you have to cycle through the 1LED-2LEDs-3LEDs setting each time you turn it on. Or perhaps it has memory for where it was last set. 

I still feel like they screwed us over abandoning us yet still manufacturing the light for mass sale. Perhaps they realized they couldn't sell it for $40 to us; they could have just told us the price would have to increase. 

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

As I can understand it has memory. Don't know what kind, though. If it was propely designed, there should be no "1LED-2LEDs-3LEDs" issue at all. Turn on to last choosen set of leds and long press to turn it off, that's it. Upper button ought to be used for modes ie. set of levels regardless of leds turned on. If so, user interface for MTB is perfect and very versatile for any other use, too. Having chance to choose from 10% steps was one of my (and some others) sugestions (if I can recall correctly). Overall it is interface Kaidomain provided quite some time ago with KD2 light.

Wondering what thermal profile looks like. I'm shure it would overheat on full power when not moving, so thermal step down should be implemented, specialy at this price point.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> garrybunk said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm . . . interesting. Hard to tell, but it looks like you have to cycle through the 1LED-2LEDs-3LEDs setting each time you turn it on. Or perhaps it has memory for where it was last set.
> ...


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> .....My optimism hinges on whether it will be possible to switch the reflectors to optics like my old Gemini Xera. Lesson learned with that light was that switching the optic to a reflector changed it from a light that was clearly superior to a MS808E to one that wasn't quite as good. Large reflectors have their advantages but small ones are just inferior to a well designed optic IMO and use of reflectors may cripple this light in terms of beam pattern/adjustability.


IDK, the Ledil Regina 20mm reflector is an excellent beam. Better than any 20mm optic I've tried (pretty much all of them except Gloworm). The LEDDNA 10 degree is close, but still not quite as nice. Definitely a matter of personal preference.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> IDK, the Ledil Regina 20mm reflector is an excellent beam. Better than any 20mm optic I've tried (pretty much all of them except Gloworm). The LEDDNA 10 degree is close, but still not quite as nice. Definitely a matter of personal preference.


Have to admit I haven't seen that reflector in use so I guess we can only hope that is what Zanflare is going to use. Still would like to be able to switch out optics to customize the beam. My experience you will see about a 5% lux advantage (bounce and center-beam) using Gloworm XS spots over the Leddna 10 degrees initially + a slightly wider beam. Leddna's tend to lose some efficiency very quickly (as quickly a just a few rides) where as the Gloworms tend to last a couple of yrs. before they fade a bit. Not sure if the heat I ride in has something to do with this but easy to see why I don't mind paying the extra price for the GW optics. Thanks for the heads-up on the reflectors, will try those if I can't get the optics to work. Sounds like it's going to be a while before we see this light yet.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> B3 bike light is equipped with 2 switches, the first one to turn it on / off and choose how many LEDs to use (one, two or three); the second key is made to regulate your light.
> 
> It is furthermore possible to personalize and adjust the brightness level, that increases by 10% - until reaching 100% - and save it through memory function.


Didn't notice this before. Sounds like the power levels may be programmable (that would be nice).
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

"$39" option, "+Battery Case" option, every time I look it seems like they've changed something.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Not shure if they listened, but I've suggested them to arrange lower price for MTBR members. Maybe we can arrange something if there was enough interest here. Will open new thread for it if I get any indication for groupbuy or similar. And some lucky countries have free shiping. No free customs fees, though :/

Edit: Ahh, there is only 10 slots for 39$ price, 0 claimed so far.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

They need to provide one for review. 

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

There doesn't seem to be any mention of what emitter bin / tint is being used. If it's not NW I don't want one.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Cat-man-do said:


> There doesn't seem to be any mention of what emitter bin / tint is being used. If it's not NW I don't want one.


Yep, yep! NW or NADA....


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Lots of discussion about this on the BLF. Not sure why Zanflare is active on that forum since is seems like most (not all ) there think the B3 is overpriced @ $63 and say they wouldn't spend that much on a light. Here's a link to the BLF thread (Garry posted it a few posts back too).
Mole

Any one know the Zanflare B3 bike light | BudgetLightForum.com


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

And they think any ol' $25 Amazon light kit is good enough. 

I've sent an email to Nefertari at GearBest to inquire what the deal with this light is and why it's being released after abandoning our custom light.

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> garrybunk said:
> 
> 
> > And they think any ol' $25 Amazon light kit is good enough.
> ...


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> There doesn't seem to be any mention of what emitter bin / tint is being used. If it's not NW I don't want one.


It's listed as an XPL 3535. 
It must be a top secret collaboration between cree and zanflare because cree don't list such a thing.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

It's showing xpl v5 with no mention of color temp (k). I'm hoping they do NW at 4500-5000k. EDIT: Zanflare is using cool white 6000-6500k. Later releasing a NW version.... Bad move IMO.


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

Zanflare posted the news on BLF because BLF is much freer than other forums. I just started a new thread here. Let's discuss there. I hope the admin does not think my post is an ad.

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...-3-independent-leds-1052103.html#post13278140


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

This light isnt really "new" was designed here and they can talk here freely (where the guys thats know cycling lights are). Some hang out over there, i go over there on flashlight related.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Nefertari responded that she moved on to another position and gave no response to this issue - just a new rep to contact.

-Garry


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

I contacted the B3 team and they said they will release the NW at the same time as CW. So we can choose the tint. Glad that B3 team appreciated our feedback.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Grntmark said:


> I contacted the B3 team...


When you say "contacted" what do you mean? Did you email them, call them, or are they actually sitting at the desk beside you?


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

I contacted them via Facebook.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

znomit said:


> or are they actually sitting at the desk beside you?


LOL!!! I was wondering the same thing.

-Garry


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I see that they now say ( on FB ) they will provide NW along with CW. That's nice. However I took at a look at the video on their crowd-funding page and they keep showing the 1-2-3 LED type of operation. They say all the LED's are programmable but I'm not sure what that means. I'd never buy this unless I knew for sure it can be operated with all LED's on for every mode. _I have a feeling that the lamp functions 1-2-3 LED and that you can only program the output of each of those steps._...OR... This might possible mean that if you put the lamp in "3 LED" mode you can program that mode for three variances...low, med, high and then change the output by using the program.

The big question is, "If you leave it in 3 LED can you change the program ( low, med, high ) while on the fly and still maintain all LED's being on. (?) That might be possible or might not be possible. All depends on the function of the UI button or button(s). If it's only got one button my CAt gut is telling me that the lamp modes will only operate in 1-2-3 LED mode and that programming will be some type of press/hold of the button for each of the modes. Yeah, you might be able to keep it in 3 LED and change output through some kind of press/hold ( program ) function but that would be a total PITA if you want to change modes quickly while on the fly and still keep all LED's lit.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

What I *THINK* is that the power button simply toggles the 1-LED, 2-LED, 3-LED and the switch in the top switches to your 3 programmed power levels (& likely has strobe & SOS in the cycle). So if you set power level 1 to say 20%, then you get 20% current through either 1-LED, 2-LEDs or 3-LEDs. I could see wanting 1-LED somewhere between 75% - 100% (max throw) while having 2-LED or 3-LED levels being different. You could almost setup settings for "Throw", "combo of throw & flood" & "flood" if you could control the programming to that level.

AGAIN - Zanflare needs to provide one for review before expecting to sell that unit for as much as they expect (i.e. after discount periods end).

AND I don't even know that I would support this product since it seems they ripped us off from our custom light! It's like they slapped us in the face, took some of our input, and created something for mass sale without being confined to our spec and needing to send out free prototypes for testing.

-Garry


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Im with garry, this whole thing is a big slap in the face. We all have a lot of discussion and input on this, others have put some behind the scenes work in to take off with the basic design that started here. Typical for those kinds of brands. Especially running to BLF for info on the build.

Heck the excuse of not running a simple driver with all 3 emitters on goes to show that they have no clue what they are doing. Even the cheapest solar storm did that running a basic buck driver. Other brands use a boost driver. Both designs are common knowledge.

And the "we're the first" thing turned me off pretty damn quick. Would have been a fun light to tinker with having that head design.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

I want one for review. But I know, there is no free lunch in the world.


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

but I'm not sure what that means. I'd never buy this unless I knew for sure it can be operated with all LED's on for every mode. [/QUOTE said:


> It did mention that B3 has the memory functions. I guess it can be operated with all LED's on for every mode.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Grntmark said:


> It did mention that B3 has the memory functions. I guess it can be operated with all LED's on for every mode.


The whole point of my post was that I was pointing out that we really won't know all the features or limitations of the UI until we actually see one. What we do know is that the UI is presently planning on using _some version_ of the 1-2-3 LED step approach, an approach that makes no sense considering all the planning that went into designing the lamp body. All that needs to be done now is to make the UI function with a simple standard 3 mode UI ( with all LED's lit full time ) that is also programmable with a standard 1-10 programmable output level for each mode.

Now if the lamp somehow accommodates both systems into the UI than we need to see how it works and if it is something positive or something negative. Personally I'm not going to jump to conclusions until I see one in action or get a review from a reliable source.

Nice that there was some feedback in that the manufacturer is willing to provide NW emitters. Now we just need to get them to provide a UI that is worthy of a decent bike lamp and then have them choose someone to do a hands on proto-type review.


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## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> The whole point of my post was that I was pointing out that we really won't know all the features or limitations of the UI until we actually see one. What we do know is that the UI is presently planning on using _some version_ of the 1-2-3 LED step approach, an approach that makes no sense considering all the planning that went into designing the lamp body. All that needs to be done now is to make the UI function with a simple standard 3 mode UI ( with all LED's lit full time ) that is also programmable with a standard 1-10 programmable output level for each mode.
> 
> Now if the lamp somehow accommodates both systems into the UI than we need to see how it works and if it is something positive or something negative. Personally I'm not going to jump to conclusions until I see one in action or get a review from a reliable source.
> 
> Nice that there was some feedback in that the manufacturer is willing to provide NW emitters. Now we just need to get them to provide a UI that is worthy of a decent bike lamp and then have them choose someone to do a hands on proto-type review.


They reply to Facebook messages

https://www.facebook.com/Zanflare-B3-340536226382779/?fref=ts

I had a little chat with them couple days ago about NW emitters.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey guys, haven't been here in a while but I'm surprised this thread is back on top of the forum. I guess it refuses to die.

I took a couple of still shots of the slick video they produced. My interpretation is that there isn't a solid conduction wall from the heat fins/body to the led mounting spot. It looks like the leds are mounted on a board which is resting on a lip. That would obviously introduce a point of high thermal resistance, and make the large outer surface area less useful.

I'm pretty sure that no one wanted the 1-2-3 UI, but maybe there's a mode where they work in unison.

Well, it seems like they blew us off anyway by not posting it here. That light was supposed to be round one of the prototypes sent to the mtbr reviewers. We were supposed to test it and then ask for revisions based on our needs. We obviously didn't even get that first step done after months of back and forth between GJHS and the gearbest people. All the effort that people on this forum put in was just a waste of time. I never really understand how this company was willing to turn down this type of free work by people who actually wanted to buy the product. We would have been made them a number one selling light.

I personally would not buy one until someone who is unbiased has a chance to review it and take it apart.

I might not buy one period, since they blew us off.


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## leaftye (Dec 27, 2007)

There are so many reasons I wouldn't buy this light. They had a great opportunity, and they blew it big time.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

See the "Zanflare crowd funding" thread too. I just posted more info there (getting tired of going back & forth between threads).

In that thread (for anyone subscribed to this one that doesn't want to check that one) I posted another route we may be able to take with another supplier to continue OUR custom build. 

-Garry


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

I copied this from their facebook page,"3 independent circuits control 3 independent LEDs. That brings about 2 advantages: 1. The brightness and visual angle are adjustable to fit different environments...".

IIRC the three independent circuits was a JGHS idea for limping home on a low battery. The angle idea is a neat but I'm not sure how they can pull that off in that housing without compromising cooling.

If their cooling is so good why is there no turbo mode? 2200 lumens on high out of a triple is nothing special.

A buyer wants to see the beam pattern and tint. Where are the beamshots? Why hide them unless you think they are bad?

There is nothing here that would make me switch from an established brand with solid after sales support and warranty and it's too much money for a cheap unproven light.

I'd buy Kaidomain or CandB Seen before Zanflare.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

arc said:


> ...A buyer wants to see the beam pattern and tint. Where are the beamshots? Why hide them unless you think they are bad?


Yeah but I don't want beam shots from the manufacturer. Never trust manufacturer provided beam shots. I want beam shot from one of us.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah but I don't want beam shots from the manufacturer. Never trust manufacturer provided beam shots. I want beam shot from one of us.


If they thought they had a good beam pattern they would be using it for advertising. I can't find a beam pattern anywhere so they must think it's so bad that it will hurt sales if anyone sees it.

That was the point I was trying to make.


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## Grntmark (Jul 28, 2017)

arc said:


> If they thought they had a good beam pattern they would be using it for advertising. I can't find a beam pattern anywhere so they must think it's so bad that it will hurt sales if anyone sees it.
> 
> That was the point I was trying to make.


 I don't think so. I have seen many ads of lights. The manufacturer generally don't show their beam on the ads. Because there are too many photos for all modes . The photos will take too many spaces of page. But the reviewers like to show the beam shots. I am looking forward to seeing reviews too.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually most show high mode (usually adjusting camera to make light look way brighter than it really is)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

arc said:


> If they thought they had a good beam pattern they would be using it for advertising. I can't find a beam pattern anywhere so they must think it's so bad that it will hurt sales if anyone sees it.
> 
> That was the point I was trying to make.


Well that's possible. They did however supply a video ( for the Zanflare B3 ) that showed a guy riding at night. Video though can actual make a lamp look worse than it actually is. The Chinese on the other hand will sometimes show still beam shots of typical 1000 lumen lamps that almost look like they are producing around 2000 lm. That's the reason I don't always trust manufacturer beam shots.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Sorry, wrong thread


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