# 44mm head tube reamer/facer



## experiment70 (Jan 2, 2006)

I'm planning frame #3, and would like to use Paragon's 44mm head tube. However, I have a Cyclus reamer/facer for a conventional (34mm id?) 1 1/8" head set. I see on the Cyclus web site that they make a variety of head set cutting tools, but I'm confused as to which part I would need. Can anyone enlighten me? What part should I buy for my Cyclus head set reamer/facer tool if I want to use Paragon's 44mm head tube? Thanks in advance,

Forrest


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*44mm*

All you need is a 44mm reamer. If Cyclus makes one (I bet they do, but I don't know off the top of my head) it should be easy to figure out. Get something that will cut to a reasonable depth (10mm-ish?) if you can.

-Walt



experiment70 said:


> I'm planning frame #3, and would like to use Paragon's 44mm head tube. However, I have a Cyclus reamer/facer for a conventional (34mm id?) 1 1/8" head set. I see on the Cyclus web site that they make a variety of head set cutting tools, but I'm confused as to which part I would need. Can anyone enlighten me? What part should I buy for my Cyclus head set reamer/facer tool if I want to use Paragon's 44mm head tube? Thanks in advance,
> 
> Forrest


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

Park are also listing something now, which may fit your handles

Matt


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## e.gellie (May 3, 2008)

The Park tool uses a spacer to get the depth required for a press-in headset.... that looks 'unusual' to me ... the cutter could perhaps drift off-centre toward the full depth of the cut. Anyone have experience using this system? They are using their Integrated 44mm cutter #798.

"SHIS terminology: the 788 is used for upper or lower headtubes that accept the ZS44 or EC44 headsets."
On this page.....
https://www.parktool.com/product/43-95mm-reamer-788










The Cyclus 44mm integrated-headset cutting tool could be used in the same way.
Art.-Nr.: 720150 (44/8,2/45°) (diameter/depth/angle) since it is their only listed 44mm cutter ... the cutting depth is 8.2mm, not the 15mm of their 1-1/8" cutter.

Cheers,
Ewen


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

I have a cyclus reamer as well, did not initialy find larger reamers for it so I converted my park BB facer/chaser to use the easily found and cheaper park cutters which fit right to the bb tool. I just drilled the end so a piece of turned down acme rod would fit thru the bore and the rest is self explanitory. I bought only the cutters. The cone is one that I made so that my jig can use the larger head tube.
BTW, the park cutters do not fit the cyclus tool.


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## pyranha (Aug 7, 2007)

I have the park cutters. In general, Park has been around for a while and the stuff they make is at least sufficient. In my case, I made my own mandrel(and an additional 10mm spacer in case more depth is EVER needed) for use in the lathe. In my case there is no way the cutter could go "off center". The Park handle holds the cutters on center and has a spring loaded centering cone to apply pressure while turning the handle.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

I was wondering about what to do with this problem, turns out I have a set of park BB taps that I no longer use, might have to convert them.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

customfab said:


> I was wondering about what to do with this problem, turns out I have a set of park BB taps that I no longer use, might have to convert them.


About the only thing that may come up with it is the handles may get a little close to a downtube on certain bikes, No problems yet but I plan on just heating the handles and bending to clear if I need to.


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

Cyclus Webs site info:

Art.-Nr.: 720914 (44/6,0/45°)
Art.-Nr.: 720910 (44/8,2/45°)
(diameter/depth/angle)


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## e.gellie (May 3, 2008)

It seems not much has changed for 44mm head tube reaming + facing since I last looked into this. 

The Cyclus tools are still the best value for me in Australia. I looked at Park, Chris King, IceToolz as well. The Cyclus cutters come as a set, with both facing cutter and reaming cutter. 
Art.-Nr.: 720914 (44/6,0/45°) The I.D. of these tools is 16mm, different from Park I think. 
I've asked Peter at Ceeway to order one in for me. Price: around £70

I'll need to machine up a spacer as is supplied with the Park tool to get the additional depth over the standard 6mm.



Cheers,
Ewen


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

The Var cutter is great.
Alternately have a 1.5" cutter ground down to size.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Resurrecting this for a quick question -
Anybody with the Park oversized 44 ID reamer ever have issues with it reaming _too much_ -- so that the headset cup can be pushed in by hand (without needing a press)...?

This just happened to me on a Paragon head tube and there was no deformation/ovalization in the tube from welding. It was worse the bottom cup which I think I reamed first and the top cup was not as loose but didn't take much pressure with the press. I used plenty of cutting oil.

This hasn't happened to me with my smaller Park cutter for 1.125 head tubes.
Is it possible the cutter I got is too big? Anyone else have this happen?


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## restlessrider (Nov 29, 2007)

The same thing happened on a frame I built last year - I told the rider I didn't have the correct reamer; he had access to an unused Park 44mm reamer. After reaming, the cups could be put in by hand, This is a guy who has many years of professional experience wrenching in high-end bike shops, and I am sure he did it correctly - seemed to be an oversized cutter or undersized cup (Chris King).


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

If the headtube is undersized too much it makes the cutter chatter and opens the hole slightly more than needed.


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## eurospek (Sep 15, 2007)

RCP FAB said:


> If the headtube is undersized too much it makes the cutter chatter and opens the hole slightly more than needed.


How much would you say is too much on the 44mm headtube?

I recently found out the top of my Kona Honzo headtube is slightly undersized (couldn't get the CC40 bearing out of the headset cup too easily and had to pop the cup altogether) but the bearing still turned smoothly.

And I asked my LBS the same question since they offered to ream it out for me, could they possibly ream out too much with the Park Tool reamer.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

This is from Park:
"_We actually worked with King on the sizing for the 788 cutter. Have you measured out the ID before reaming? How much material is being removed during the cut? From what we have seen cut problems such as these stem from issues of fixturing. If the cutter moves about the axis while turning it can cut too much material. If you would like you may of course return the tool for checking. Also, if you would like, we can reduce the size slightly for you. This will help accommodate movement in the cutting handle. _

I have the Park handle (HTR-1B) and I measured the Paragon HT to be 43.7mm before the cut, a King 44mm cup exactly, and 44.09mm ream diameter.

I'm willing to take responsibility for this but only somewhat. I've already heard from another builder off this forum that switched to King cutters and has had perfect results every time since switching and they're using the same 'fixture' (HTR-1B).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

FWIW I have never had a problem with my King cutters (on a Park handle). Anecdotal, I know, but hey. 

-Walt


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Yuck, that sounds like a nightmare.

I am about to order a 44 reamer I will check with King.

BTW, when this sort of thing happens how does one repair such a frame? Provided there is already paint on the frame I imagine it is something that is pretty hard to repair. Is installing a slightly oversize headset an option?


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Knowing what I know now I'd say go with a King cutter even though they're more money and harder to buy. I use lots of Park stuff, but this is one cutter I will be replacing. 

Since i've already powdercoated my frame, the only 'fix' i've thought of doing is to try and find a bigger headset just by chance (not sure how you'd do this unless you worked at a bike shop and had lots of headsets lying around), or use a thread locker. You could put some epoxy or JB Weld to glue it in there, but then that headset is stuck to that frame forever. 

I read on another forum someone used and recommended Loctite 680. With that you can actually get the headset out with some heat if you want to change it to another frame one day. I'm going to give that a try.

If it's not painted, i'd melt some silver in there and try to do a very light pass with the reamer. I did that on the last frame and it worked with a Cane Creek ZS44 since I had just spray painted the frame.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I would try knurling the cup a little bit (pretty easy to do by hand, just a little tricky to clamp the cup to whack at it). King will also often do a custom cup a little oversize if you ask nicely, I think.

But I bet knurl+loctite will do the trick. You can get a some knurls (the little rollers) that will fit into a standard hand pipe cutter (don't ask for part numbers, I don't know, but I've seen this done) and do a great job. 

-Walt


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Follow up from Park. They have great customer service. 
"The best is to use an end mill. This should not be a hand operation with the tolerances that King is asking for. I would recommend we take your cutter down. We will do this at no charge."

I measured a series 40 Cane Creek ZS44 and it was 44.07 which would fit better so I may just have to switch to a non-King headset for this frame.

The knurling is a good idea, but scared to give it a go with such a nice headset!
Wonder if blue thread locker will work since the 680 is $25 for 10ml...must be good stuff.

Thanks for the help all.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey Whit;

I know that Loctite makes a bearing set material. I don't know the number off hand, but it's great for pressed bearing lands where they have previously been replaced cold and the land has been broached oversize by the friction. By the way, when you do them cold (axle bearings mostly), you have to beat the tar out of them. When you heat them, they just fall out with a tap, especially the alloy hub variety. 

The bearing setter saves the day on these problems, but is not permanent. I'd bet it would work for a headset too.


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

I use the Ice toolz reamer/facer with their 44mm cutter and have had no issues with cane creek headsets, I havn't tried one of the kings with it though.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

The CC 110 fit looser than I would have liked with my Park reamed Paragon HT. I had just assumed it was my subpar heat control. But it makes sense that the reamer could be getting worked too hard and wobbling on the undersized HT. I recall there was some discussion in another thread saying Paragon slightly reduced how undersized new HT's are.


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

"The best is to use an end mill. This should not be a hand operation with the tolerances that King is asking for".

Whit, how would one do this? Mount the 44mm reamer in a vertical mill and plunge cut the HT? It really would have to be centered perfectly if I'm visualizing this correctly.
cheers
andy walker


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

probaby best to us a boring bar, but as you say getting it centered would be an issue


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

That makes sense with a lathe and a boring bar. The centering would be doable. But the Park guy said end mill? I assume with a mill (vertical or horizontal). Maybe that's what he meant.
cheers
andy walker


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

Sorry I was unclear, I meant a boring bar in a boring head on a mill. I suppose you could cnc it with an end mill


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Andy et al.,
I'm definitely not the right person to ask about what tools and type of machining to do for this! What unterhausen said about using a boring bar is probably the *right* way to go about it. What the Park guy was saying was somehow buy/use/make a perfectly machined 43.95mm end mill that you could use to bore the head tube to 8mm deep on the mill or lathe. I've seen some builders use a lathe to ream/face stuff so maybe that is what the Park guy was referring to? Yeah, best get it dead nuts centered!

I sent my cutter to Park to get downsized to i-don't-know-what. I'm assuming they have done this before so maybe to 43.90? I will first try it on a test stock of the True Temper variety since it's way cheaper than a Paragon! 

I hadn't heard that the PMW headtubes changed tolerances. I had the one I just used for several months so maybe that was part of my problem. From PMW's site: "The bearing bores are supplied .5 mm (.020") undersize to allow for post-weld reaming, and must be finished to size by the frame builder."


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## fixxer (Jan 26, 2004)

I have discovered to my chagrin that none of the LBS near me can ream for a 44 mm headset. 

So, does anyone know if the ice toolz 44 mm reamer will fit a cyclus HT reamer tool?


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Meriwether said:


> I sent my cutter to Park to get downsized to i-don't-know-what. I'm assuming they have done this before so maybe to 43.90? I will first try it on a test stock of the True Temper variety since it's way cheaper than a Paragon!


What was the result of this? I'm getting ready to have to figure out how to do something with a PMW and a True Temper 44mm tube and am really concerned about using Park after reading this thread. Tony Maietta had something I think but his website is gone. I'm worried the CK stuff is as expensive as a frame jig.


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

I just got the cyclus ones from ceeway. I think it ran about $200. Pretty worth it and works great.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

I've been meaning to update this thread with new info but as you'll see I'm still having issues. I think I'm the 'exception' to the rule here so I'm not sure you will have any problem.

So first, i've been trying to get a King 'small diameter inset reamer kit' or whatever they're called since this thread started months ago. I've had two emails from them saying they are on backorder and they don't know when they'll be producing any more. Apparently they're not in that high of a demand compared to headsets and BB's 

Park has been cool, but there are still issues with the tools. I thought they were just going to turn down my reamer to 43.9 but it got returned to me at 43.75. Obviously that is too small for any headset to even approach going in. So I called and got a Vegas 'floor model' reamer of normal 43.95 size. Now I approach the right size by first reaming with the smaller cutter, then loading the other cutter.

I've had mixed results. I ream before powdercoat by putting a tube block on the downtube and load the block & bike in the vise so it's a super rigid setup. Lots of cutting oil, good solid tension in the spring, and i get no vibration in the cut. It works good for the MHT-44's I've done since then likely because any ovalization will mean more off the sides of the ream and then when pressing the cup in the tube flexes to 'meet' the headset cup (total guess on that).
But this hasn't been working well for the 3 Paragon head tubes I've reamed. For some reason it doesn't take enough off and the cups I've pressed into those head tubes were TIGHT -- the reverse of my previous problem. I think the reason this is happening is that the reamer they sent is more around 43.9 (my calipers) and you're only supposed to have at most a 0.2mm undersized head tube. The cups from Cane Creek I've had were both more around 44.07 so that means it's close to the 0.2mm 'cutoff' and there's absolutely no flex in the PMW headtubes.

So I really don't know what to recommend. If you can borrow someone's King kit I'd do that first. If you use the Park reamer, make sure you have the frame super rigid and use lots of cutting oil, and put good tension in the spring. If it overcuts use Loctite 680 (or the regular blue stuff) and that works fine to keep it in there tight.

The Park and King reamers are supposed to be identical and created using the same model. I don't mean to bag on Park, I just haven't had good luck.


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

jay_ntwr said:


> What was the result of this? I'm getting ready to have to figure out how to do something with a PMW and a True Temper 44mm tube and am really concerned about using Park after reading this thread. Tony Maietta had something I think but his website is gone. I'm worried the CK stuff is as expensive as a frame jig.


Definitely understand your apprehension since I was in the same boat a couple months ago (PMW HT) so I want to share my steps/experience.

I contacted Park to ask about reducing the cutter as mentioned above. The response I received was this:

"It is certainly the case that some builders are not able to hold their tooling properly fixed. This sizing is correct at 43.95mm. We can reduce for the price of sharpening. The older techniques do not necessarily translate to the new technologies."

Based on options available/cost factors I did end up buying the Park cutter/centering adapter cone for $122 shipped from AE bike even though the response from Park was less than encouraging.

Whit provided good guidance/recommendations to make sure the headtube was clamped securely and cutting was slow/smooth/square/etc. The end result was satisfactory and the headset I used in the frame (HD2410 Cane Creek 40 ZS44/28.6 EC44/30 Black Headset) fit great.

If you are in the Colorado area and want to borrow the setup let me know.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I have found two of the Park head tube facer/reamer tools at my LBS to have bent threaded rods. They didn't know how that had happened. It would be worth inspecting that part of the tool, it's apparently fairly easy to bend.


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

^^^^adarn
which cyclus 44 from ceeway? maybe I didn't see it listed, i'll look at cyclus's catalog.
cheers
andy walker


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

afwalker said:


> ^^^^adarn
> which cyclus 44 from ceeway? maybe I didn't see it listed, i'll look at cyclus's catalog.
> cheers
> andy walker


The Cutter I got was 720910. It's not on the site, but they have them. Send Peter an E mail and he will help you out.

Adam


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

adarn said:


> The Cutter I got was 720910. It's not on the site, but they have them. Send Peter an E mail and he will help you out.
> 
> Adam


Have you used it with the CK headset or just the Cane Creek?


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> I have found two of the Park head tube facer/reamer tools at my LBS to have bent threaded rods. They didn't know how that had happened. It would be worth inspecting that part of the tool, it's apparently fairly easy to bend.


Indeed;

If the operator assumes that since he has a fixture to do all the work, that he does not have to pay attention, then he has a fool for a mechanic. Regardless of what type of bearing setter you are using, the bearing can still cock sideways until it seats far enough into the land to STAY square. Bent threaded rod is fairly easy to do after that. If your reamer uses that same rod, well...

I have at least one extra t-shirts available on that one.


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