# 'Alternative' frame finishes



## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey you losers,

I've rekindled my interest in 'alternative' finishes for frames, mostly steel. We've had some great results with 'Ceramic' coatings and I think generally that they are pretty awesome despite the lovely 'military/industrial death machine' colors.

However, I'm now looking at the same industry for 'Parkerising' and other Phosphating finishes.

Have any of you messed around with stuff like this? Mr.Bohm?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Um, not much. I did completely gun blue a bicycle frame once. It was kind of a cool effect even though I just did the cheapo back-yard stuff. A real blue job takes time.

Most of the old style finishes are based on an oxide. Usually you would polish your part, dip in a hot tank of some chemicals which would essentially put a layer of rust/oxide on the surface. You would rub this with steel wool or the like and do it again, about 10 times. Good gun blue/brown/parkerizing can last a whole long time and even keep a weapon from rusting in the harshest of weather but you do have to take care of it and it needs maintenance. Just what most MTB guys/gals don't do.

As far as the more modern finishes, I am not exactly sure. I think a lot of it comes down to economics. If you have to ship it, pay to have the work done and ship back it may just not work into the equation compared to a $100 powder job.

The ceramic coatings are neat. I have tried only a few times. They do have some brighter colors now although it is still slim. Perfect for that tactical, digital camo look


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

Cadmium plating would be neat, the military loves it for steel stuff.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Charge in the UK have just done a galvanised finish. Like a gate. Looks hot.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

None of that crap works.. Parkersizing, blueing, black oxide,etc. It's great for guns and tools (that get oiled), it's been hashed over and revisited on various bike forums for years. Guys get all excited b/c it looks cool, they think they have an inside line on something. Lets see how it looks 2 years down the road.
This is the end all site:

http://www.caswellplating.com/

Cool stuff.. would be fun for accent parts, or NAHBS eye candy, but I think when push comes to shove, between cost, upkeep, and all the chems, it doesn't make sense.

I know Villin did a blued frame, and one of the Portland builders did one as well, and put it outside as a 'test' (blued). Not pretty.

Galvanizing works ok.. don't know about any potential troublesome chem residues. Also weight? The look is for a very focused crowd. I believe Swobo spec'd a bike with a galvanized finish as well.

-Schmitty-


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Swobo's (and I'll assume Charge's) galvanized finishes were just powdercoat...

If it's not cheaper than powdercoat, what's the point? Anything that adds expensive to save marginal weight is no friend to me.

That why we push anodized aluminum on our customers as hard as we can... Cheaper than any other finish, lighter than any other finish, more durable than any other finish... 

If simplicity and weight savings are a goal... Why bother with Steel at all?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> None of that crap works..
> -Schmitty-


Um, two words. Stainless steel.....

Actually galvanizing is probably the cheapest best all around protection from corrosion on steel.

And I will respond to Suspect device. You are kidding aren't you? Jeez man, I wonder about this place once in a while. Sure aluminum is cool, anodizing is cool but all materials have advantages and disadvantages. Steel has some, Aluminum has some. If you want to argue that BS about aluminum, I would retort as to why even use that ****. You could say that carbon is lighter still and does not corrode at all, which by the way aluminum still does.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Don't paint it at all. Most of the modern steels won't surface rust too badly if it's not too humid or don't salt the roads.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

I rode this Carver 650b bike at Interbike East in Providence last fall. I thought this sort of burned coffee anodized color was really cool and different:


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> Um, two words. Stainless steel.....
> 
> Actually galvanizing is probably the cheapest best all around protection from corrosion on steel.
> 
> ...


Hah! Hey I'm a believer after that test you ran!

I've been meaning for years to get a bunch of tubes, and clean/coat them in various combos and make an installation out in the yard and see what happens. There's all kinds of old mixtures out there as well to try. Tung oil, etc. Shot peening would be interesting to check out also.

I'm pretty sure the Swobos were actually galvanized, as they had the tell tale galvanizing look to them.. the flakes. Maybe I'm making stuff up. Seems like real galvanizing would be heavy and build up too much. It's also toxic as hell.

Powder coaters can do a cad coat, usually silver, and usually a base for a color coat. That's the really bomber rust resistant coating.

-Schmitty-


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

DWF said:


> Don't paint it at all. Most of the modern steels won't surface rust too badly if it's not too humid or don't salt the roads.


This has never worked in any location I've every lived in....I have trouble with my tubing just sitting in the garage. ug, Florida humidity is killer...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> There's all kinds of old mixtures out there as well to try. Tung oil, etc. Shot peening would be interesting to check out also.





Schmitty said:


> None of that crap works


Man, you must be having a shocker of a day.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Nature's alternative finish.........two years in the making.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

DWF said:


> Don't paint it at all. Most of the modern steels won't surface rust too badly if it's not too humid or don't salt the roads.


Is there a story behind that picture? I smell adventure.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> I'm pretty sure the Swobos were actually galvanized, as they had the tell tale galvanizing look to them.. the flakes.


The one at my ex-local shop looked galvanized, but looking at it close you could see that it was some kind of textured powdercoat.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Is there a story behind that picture? I smell adventure.


Some, you can read part of the basics here.


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## bucksaw87 (Jun 18, 2007)

how does rhino-lining or other truckbed lining work as a bike coating?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks Don.

Hey, I wonder if you can mitre up a build, Parkerise the parts, and then weld. That would be a lot easier than trying to do an entire frame once it's built. Probably opened up a whole can of worms with that one.


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## BentChainring (Jul 10, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Thanks Don.
> 
> Hey, I wonder if you can mitre up a build, Parkerise the parts, and then weld. That would be a lot easier than trying to do an entire frame once it's built. Probably opened up a whole can of worms with that one.


Parkerizing is a phosphate conversion coating. Phosphate contains phosphorous (obviously). Phosphorous (and sulfur) can cause severe liquation cracking in welds (cracks that occur on-cooling due to solidification point depression).


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

bucksaw87 said:


> how does rhino-lining or other truckbed lining work as a bike coating?


There's a kid in town who had his jump bike coated with that stuff. Seems to work fine, though I think it's heavy compared to other options. The kid is a real thrasher so I can't say much about the durability of it. It did have scratches, but I don't how a powdercoat would survive under him. It certainly wasn't flaking off or anything.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> 'Ceramic'


I've seen ceramic mentioned here and there, and everybody says it is light and highly durable. Looks good too if you can get a color that you like.

What is the downside? Just cost unless you live in a town where somebody is already doing it to military stuff?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I've done quite a few frames with the ceramic. It's no different than applying paint, but in practice It's not much more durable than paint, really. The big advantage is weight - it weighs bugger all. They say it is incredibly durable, but we use the best stuff you can buy (an oven cure type) and haven't found it quite as awesome as the literature says it is. Then again, what is?

Anyway, just trying to think laterally and look at other industries that use coatings to protect steel for something different and hopefully better.

Or just petition Columbus for an off-road XCR tubeset that only costs 300 bucks.


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## Chopshopchopper (Aug 18, 2009)

Copper coating, and etching. There is a lot of cool etch paterns you can add to the surface of the steel, stainless,and titanim. Most can be done with some h-depo, and radio shack stuff. Electro-chemica processes are usualy better, for etching. The knifemaking fourms have all kinds of ideas for that. Here are a few.:thumbsup:

http://www.aescustomknives.com/docs/tutorial3.htm

http://www.aescustomknives.com/docs/tutorial13.htm


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> We've had some great results with 'Ceramic' coatings and I think generally that they are pretty awesome despite the lovely 'military/industrial death machine' colors.


I'd entertain a ceramic finish on my new frame. What kind of finish are you folks using? What colors. I'd like to track down a local company that can do it for me.


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## Chopshopchopper (Aug 18, 2009)

One more idea would be coatings used for tooling such as high speed steel and carbide. There a quite a few and each one is a diferent color. The finish would be abraision resistant, and as hard as the material it is aplied too. Search PVD and CVD finishes... Or...

Check this out for a little more info:

http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/77306/Issue

http://www.moldmakingtechnology.com/articles/010303.html

.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

pvd said:


> I'd entertain a ceramic finish on my new frame. What kind of finish are you folks using? What colors. I'd like to track down a local company that can do it for me.


Bead blast, then coat straight after. Surface prep is paramount. The colours are a bazillion shades of black/grey/silver, and all the lovely military colours like OD Green, Foliage green, Desert Tan etc. Use the oven cure versions, they're much better.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

"crazy8" mentions having found some color too:

_"The ceramic I use is mil spec and suitable for use on turbines to artillery to small arms but I have bright red, yellow and blue, even a lollipop purple."_
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5967721&postcount=19


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Yeah, that's a air cure range of colours, probably Duracoat. It's crap. If he likes it, he'll be shocked when he experiences 'the real stuff'.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Chopshopchopper said:


> One more idea would be coatings used for tooling such as high speed steel and carbide. There a quite a few and each one is a diferent color. The finish would be abraision resistant, and as hard as the material it is aplied too. Search PVD and CVD finishes... Or...
> 
> Check this out for a little more info:
> 
> ...


I don't think there'd be any color choices. Ti Nitride is gold, expensive, and probably hard to do on an item as large as a frame.

Whay about baked on enamel ala olden days? Was is surpased by paint as we know it today?

-Schmitty-


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> The colours are a bazillion shades of black/grey/silver, and all the lovely military colours like OD Green, Foliage green, Desert Tan etc. Use the oven cure versions, they're much better.


Right, but what is the exact material being applied? Do you have a trade name or website that I can refer to. There are a lot of ceramic finishes out there, I'm not getting exactly which one you are using.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

o.k. Here are my thoughts.

We have to specify what we want in a coating. By that coatings do all sorts of things. They protect the metal underneath from corrosion, they can fend off chips and dings. How well do they adhere etc.

I wish I had more time and money to experiment with these things but what people want in coatings is often very different.

Wet paint for instance. The good expensive stuff applied well. Almost nothing offers better corrosion resistance than high quality catalyzed epoxy primer. Problem is the top coats can chip and after that it looks bad and its expensive to do because of labor. Still though your protected.

Powder. Not as good corrosion protection unless you use metal treatments or powder primer. Even then not usually as good but damn resistant to chipping and its so damn thick that it is hard to get through the surface. Even a serious scratch may not breach the surface.

Gun coatings. Ceramic or otherwise. Super thin. Up to 15 times thinner than wet jobs and 30-40 times thinner than powder. hard as catalyzed polyurethane but so thin that if something harder hits it, like a rock it will breach the coating and now you are at bare metal again. So offers great protection but can be breached. Baked version nearly twice as hard as non-baked. Not hard to spray but you do need a baking oven like at a powdercoater to cure it. Non baked version actually are used on the barrel of weapons because they flux at 700 degrees and become even harder than the baked versions. Pete..Maybe if you go fast enough friction will heat up your frame and flux the coating making it super tough.

I have been playing with a polyurethane film used to protect helicopter blades from erosion from sand and such. Toughest shite I have ever seen. You can apply it to a primer and then paint over it or you can apply it over paint. Only problem is you only apply it to high impact areas, it takes time and its expensive. Once again. By the time you do it you have already spent more time and money than a powder job and yes, you could sandblast it without damaging the surface underneath but people don't want the best, they usually want the best for the money. A combination of ceramic with polyurethane protective tapes in high wear areas would probably be the best combo dollar for dollar.

All that other stuff like ti nitride which is totally cool is just too expensive and hard to get done to justify it on a full bicycle frame.

Sorry, long post.

Dave


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## 181picklz (Aug 5, 2009)

Has anyone just tried nickel coating? I just though I would mention it since I did not see it come up. We had some dirtbike frames done and it turns out great. Lightly buffed it has a very satin finish. Even as much as a steel DB frame flexes it never flaked and all the high wear areas looked new after a couple years.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Yeah, I've done ENP on both steel and Aluminium.

To be completely frank, the biggest barrier with these 'new' finishes is finding people to do them and then stand by their work. So far we've had one ceramic guy not prep a frame properly and it started rusting from underneath, and then the guy blamed us. "Oh, you didn't tell us it was going offroad".....WTF, you coat GUNS for a living. Where do you think they're going?
Similar story with a batch of ENP'd frames that guys I was designing frames for did. They started rusting from underneath, had to be stripped, and the company didn't stand behind their product.

Finding good people who can think outside the square is a tough. We've got some good refinishers now, but the battle to get there really wears you down.

I can see why everyone just goes to Spectrum lol.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

But imagine the excuses that these alternative finishes will afford the builder if the frame is going to be late!

"It's at the ceramic coaters, bro. I should have it back in the shop by the end of next week......."


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## BentChainring (Jul 10, 2008)

181picklz said:


> Has anyone just tried nickel coating? I just though I would mention it since I did not see it come up. We had some dirtbike frames done and it turns out great. Lightly buffed it has a very satin finish. Even as much as a steel DB frame flexes it never flaked and all the high wear areas looked new after a couple years.


Do-able... but frame will likely need a bake out at 350-400F for 24 hours for hydrogen embrittlement protection


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