# MTBR, you Rock!



## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Thanks for being open-minded.

Unlike pinkbike which posts lame articles like "friends don't let friends ride eMTB's" it's obvious you are embracing not only what, sure - is what the industry wants, but most importantly, it's what some riders want - like me. Thank you. 

Personally I think a better article would be titled "Friends who try to convince others not to try or ride ebikes (or do whatever they might enjoy doing in life for whatever reason) are not true friends."


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I suppose it's because it's Pinkbike not Pinkebike?


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## manitou2200 (Apr 28, 2006)

We might as well invite the dirt bikers to join in mtbr as well. I'm not anti dirt bike but I don't want to necessarily share trails with them or include them in our MTB trail access issues.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Well, you invited us; you don't think that e-bikers added this forum, do you?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Well, you invited us; you don't think that e-bikers added this forum, do you?


No, "we" did not invite you. Recent poll overwhelmingly rejected even having an emotorbike forum.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

TT, thanks for the clarification; didn't mean you personally, just that e-bikers weren't the perpetrators of the forum. Always heard that if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs (never did though), the one who yelps is the one who was hit. Metaphorically do that occasionally.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

One of these threads again.

What is this forum for anyways? Just off road trails? No talk about accessories, tips and tricks or just overall anything bicycle?


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Ignore the deniers and the Junior Trail Deputy Trolls. Make this a place to discuss eBikes for mountain biking. Don't engage the trolls. Don't reply to them. It's better to simply make sure that the people who pay the bills understand how this forum is being managed. When they understand that it undermines the interests of advertisers, they can choose to let that revenue go somewhere else or make changes.


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## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

I dunno...for all non elderly, non handicapped adults--, how bout the ebikers just swallow their well earned insecurities and/or stop drawing attention to themselves if they don't want bad attention. if you can walk and choose to drive up the trail just know you're gonna be treated like you were in hs. Sorry that you look funny.

It's kinda like the don't ask don't tell thing in the army to me really


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

jfudge02 said:


> It's kinda like the don't ask don't tell thing in the army to me really


Sounds good to me. I don't care what hardware other people bring to the trail if it doesn't affect anyone else.

I am not sure why the eBike deniers are so hell bent on doing the equivalent of "ferreting out them gays" to use your analogy.

It really is strange.

Do they think I might "turn them e"?

ePhobics might be so passionate because deep down inside they are eCurious.

Excellent point.


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## jfudge02 (Mar 24, 2016)

daven007 said:


> Sounds good to me. I don't care what hardware other people bring to the trail if it doesn't affect anyone else.  Excellent point.


Except it can affect others as has already been discussed. Spend a little more time reading logical arguments and a little less time trying to think of some analogy that doesn't even make sense. You interpreted what I said horribly, sorry. 
Were people in the army banning gays because they thought "they might turn them gay?" Doubt it, excellent point sir. Touché


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

jfudge02 said:


> I dunno...for all non elderly, non handicapped adults--, how bout the ebikers just swallow their well earned insecurities and/or stop drawing attention to themselves if they don't want bad attention. if you can walk and choose to drive up the trail just know you're gonna be treated like you were in hs. Sorry that you look funny.
> 
> It's kinda like the don't ask don't tell thing in the army to me really


This post goes to show that there are, unfortunately, a-holes out there that of course roam this forum as well.

I'm 30, tall, average weight and "normal" looking. Most the time I walk normal. I talk normal. Polite and greet nearly everyone I come across.

Now I'll roll up to a trail/path/camp site/ect and a-holes will see the e-bike and laugh at me? Maybe give me a hard time and verbally rough me up?

But if you ARE handicapped - it's okay to e-bike it, if legal. No offense. No harm.

I personally have a bad knee. Not a handicap you can always see/notice. I love being outdoors and riding a bicycle and getting a work out is important to me. While my knee isn't totally shot - there are times I can't walk because it gives out. Or if I push too hard it hurts. I'm not out to cause more damage to my knee but I do need to continue to build muscle around it to better support my knee vs just being a weak link.

So I just laugh and chuckle when people say "get a motorcycle". "Ride a normal bike or don't ride at all". Maybe I want to ride on a nice pathway, outside enjoying the fresh air/sun/yoga girls. All while working out. I can't work out the areas I need to while riding a motorcycle.

End of the day it's just all silly BS. And I feel bad for the idiots who feel they need to bash e-bikes because of their selfish wants. Pathetic peasants in my eyes. Not sure why it's so hard that all of us can enjoy the great outdoors.

And I'm willing to bet a fat tire e-bike leaves less damage on the trail than a standard bike


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I ride mine because it's a friggin riot. Most fun I've had on a bike in a long time.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

GiantTurd said:


> The only reason there is an ebike forum is greed, very simple.


Which should bother every forum member living in their Mom's basement completely unaware of how the economy works. Because MTBR doesn't accept advertising revenue? Wealthy philanthropist or subscriptions supporting them?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

daven007 said:


> Which should bother every forum member living in their Mom's basement completely unaware of how the economy works. Because MTBR doesn't accept advertising revenue? Wealthy philanthropist or subscriptions supporting them?


Sure they accept advertising, for Mountain Bikes. Thumpertalk is what you seek.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-sM8c-YIhhJF97oF1cu79w&bvm=bv.131783435,d.cGc


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Sure they accept advertising, for Mountain Bikes. Thumpertalk is what you seek.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-sM8c-YIhhJF97oF1cu79w&bvm=bv.131783435,d.cGc


Lol. I clicked. Funny.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

I can't wait to meet an anti e-biker in person. What a mind **** that will be fore them lol


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> I can't wait to meet an anti e-biker in person. What a mind **** that will be fore them lol


You most likely won't. Something tells me they're not the confrontational type unless they're hiding behind a keyboard. I also have a feeling they can't ride for **** Just a bunch of posers


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

mojoronnie said:


> You most likely won't. Something tells me they're not the confrontational type unless they're hiding behind a keyboard. I also have a feeling they can't ride for **** Just a bunch of posers


Most likely. In my 80 miles of riding in the past couple weeks .. everyone has been nothing but friendly.

I kind of feel bad for assuming everyone else on a bike is an ebike hating a hole. Guess only the trolls live behind keyboards too busy to ride a bike. Washed up asholes too lazy to wipe


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> Most likely. In my 80 miles of riding in the past couple weeks .. everyone has been nothing but friendly.
> 
> I kind of feel bad for assuming everyone else on a bike is an ebike hating a hole. Guess only the trolls live behind keyboards too busy to ride a bike. Washed up asholes too lazy to wipe


Theses guys are not riders. Real riders don't enter forums that they have nothing to do with and start hating. That pretty much says it all. POSERS!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Dirtbikes RULE! 

Everything on a modern mt bike came from dirtbike technology! Should they be allowed on mt bike trails? Hell no! But horses are and what part of your mt bike came from a horse?

Someone spell check me!
I don't wanna be on one of those lists!
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Dirtbikes RULE!
> 
> Everything on a modern mt bike came from dirtbike technology! Should they be allowed on mt bike trails? Hell no! But horses are and what part of your mt bike came from a horse?
> 
> ...


Many of those mtn bike trails you don't want to share with dirt bikers were built by dirt bikers in the 60's and 70's. Yet all of sudden they became mtn bike trails and you don't want to share them. Point is, EVERYONE should be able to use the trail system to their liking.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

There is so much butthurt stupidity in this thread it's amazing.

Ya'll whine like a bunch of little *****es. No wonder you need a motor on your bikes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I still think the e-bike forum is here specifically to make e-bikes look bad, and NEPMTBA is in on the scheme. If you really wanted to keep things positive, OP, you shouldn't have posted this thread at all. 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> I still think the e-bike forum is here specifically to make e-bikes look bad, and NEPMTBA is in on the scheme.
> 
> -Walt


It's certainly working well if so.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

GiantTurd said:


> The only reason there is an ebike forum is greed, very simple.


Yup. Controversial threads generate lots of ad impressions. 


ImaBum said:


> I can't wait to meet an anti e-biker in person. What a mind **** that will be fore them lol


I'm probably what you'd consider anti ebike. If I saw you on the trail I'd be happy to grab some miles together, hopefully have a respectful discussion as we rode, and hopefully grab a beer at the lot after.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

mojoronnie said:


> Many of those mtn bike trails you don't want to share with dirt bikers were built by dirt bikers in the 60's and 70's. Yet all of sudden they became mtn bike trails and you don't want to share them. *Point is, EVERYONE should be able to use the trail system to their liking.*


I agree - so long as they do their best to not damage the trails and follow the pack it in/pack it out rule. I hate that on every trip I go out into the woods I am always picking up trash. I should naturally reach for a safeway plastic bag before a nature outing just to pick up trash to better the place.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Procter said:


> Yup. Controversial threads generate lots of ad impressions.
> 
> I'm probably what you'd consider anti ebike. If I saw you on the trail I'd be happy to grab some miles together, hopefully have a respectful discussion as we rode, and hopefully grab a beer at the lot after.


I'd be down for a ride, beer an good convo!!

End of the day it's all point of views. I want to be able to walk the land just as much as the next guy. It's a never ending battle when new technology comes out and folk want to enjoy the land but it becomes a two sided debate. Really no need for it. Just some logical guidance that is the best fit for EVERYONE out there. And I'll cheers to that!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yep, as long as we preserve the user experience for everyone already on the trails, ride whatever you want. If people start abusing that, modding bikes, riding 15+mph uphill on 2-way trails, etc... the bans will happen fast. There's a reason motos got banned from basically everywhere.

-Walt


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I totally agree with Walt! 

Today I was by myself on the dirt bike/ horse trail that runs around the mountain range behind my place. I was in a hurry as I had a tight schedule today and really didn't have time for a ride. But, the day before, while taking a break from not pedaling (haha don't know why my thighs were burning), I had taken my sunglasses off and then left them by the side of the trail like a dumb ass! So today I just speeder up, using just the throttle. My max speed was 14 mph, and even that was almost too fast due to the roots, rocks, and general difficulty. Not 30, 14 mph. Normal "speed" for this stretch.for me is 6 to 8. I had good line of sight but mtbr's don't use this trail they use the groomed st in town. When I checked my display, proud of my speed up, I had to laugh. I did find my 3 day old sunglasses, cheap ones, but that still made my day.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

Walt said:


> Yep, as long as we preserve the user experience for everyone already on the trails, ride whatever you want. If people start abusing that, modding bikes, riding 15+mph uphill on 2-way trails, etc... the bans will happen fast. There's a reason motos got banned from basically everywhere.
> 
> -Walt[/QUOTE
> 
> When I refer to an e bike, I'm referring to the Levo. The Levo does not climb trails at 15 mph. It may climb a couple mph faster than a non e bike, but that's it. It climbs slow and steady. I'm sure Specialized knew what they were doing when they designed this bike. I have no doubt that this bike will be deemed legal on all trails in due time. I'm all for pedal assist bikes like the Levo. They serve a purpose. I've never ridden a e bike with a throttle, not sure why I would, pedal assist bikes is the way to go. The foot print left by a Levo is exactly the same as a pedaled mtn bike. If you've never ridden a Levo you should, then you would see how harmless the bike really is


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

Walt said:


> Yep, as long as we preserve the user experience for everyone already on the trails, ride whatever you want. If people start abusing that, modding bikes, riding 15+mph uphill on 2-way trails, etc... the bans will happen fast. There's a reason motos got banned from basically everywhere.
> 
> -Walt


That's the key. Despite the fact that most don't notice that my Levo is an eBike, I feel like an ambassador. I'm not going to pass someone grinding up a hill. The respectful thing to do is back off and give them room. I might not get the same level of workout climbing that hill, but waiting to pass over the top is the right thing to do.

I think trail etiquette discussions are a positive eBike topic of conversation.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Daven - you raise a good point.

I find myself often not passing people on bikes most the time. Depending on trail activity I'll usually just stop and smell the roses for a minute an let them gain up on me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mojoronnie said:


> They serve a purpose.


So I've heard from e-bike users here that electric bikes-

-are slower that a bicycle downhill
-do not have as much range as a bicycle
-are just barely faster than a bicycle uphill
-are heavy and more cumbersome handling than a bicycle

I really don't believe all these claims but assuming they're true, what *is* their purpose?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

How about having fun? Same reason you ride I'm guessing. I can understand how you non e bikes guys don't get it, but there is something weirdly, even unexpectedly FUN about seamlessly integrating your human power with an electric motor. The lack of noise is a big factor also. Obviously they allow one to go further with less effort, it's like slipping on a Iron Man suit, or giving your legs Viagra. The payoff is still there: more effort on your part allows you go further or faster. 

Frankly, it's hard to imagine how one could even ask your question, it's just like riding a regular bike, but better. NOT want you want to hear but that's the way I see it. We ride them for the same exact reasons you ride your bikes: exercise, seeing friends, transportation, getting outside in scenic locations, sound familiar?!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> So I've heard from e-bike users here that electric bikes-
> 
> -are slower that a bicycle downhill
> -do not have as much range as a bicycle
> ...


Don't forget that you get more exercise on an e-bike than a regular bike.

So the conclusions reached by some seem to be that a motor is not a motor, and using said non-motor makes you travel slower and work harder. 
Makes perfect sense to me.


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## daven007 (Feb 18, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> So I've heard from e-bike users here that electric bikes-
> 
> -are slower that a bicycle downhill
> -do not have as much range as a bicycle
> ...


Compared to the expert riders and bike mechanics that frequent the eBike forum, these things are all true.

Of course it is all relative.

My expert rider friends claim that "in six months" I'll be able to keep up with them downhill, once I properly adjust the travel on my suspension. Now I am "fear limited". Some of them hit 30mph downhill in the dirt. I hit 22. (Last ride)

My Levo is good for 2 hours-ish of riding before it becomes a 48 pound mountain bike.
That's an hour out, and an hour back. On the kind of trails I think we are all worried about, that means MAYBE 10 miles each way. I know plenty of people who ride more than that distance on mountain bikes. As a practical matter, non-experts can ride longer with assist, of course.

Barely faster? If rocks and ruts and roots (and slower riders) are not part of the equation, my Levo could climb a hill at 12mph that I could manage 8 on without assist. That's a pretty big difference, and needs to be managed courteously.

The purpose varies from one user to another. For me, it's like a golf handicap. It allows me to ride with friends and have fun. I dial in the minimum level of assist needed to keep up and maintain the level of effort so it is consistent with my un-assisted buddies. No one has a problem riding with me when they look at my data.

On paved trails, it's all about "tuning the terrain" so I can avoid going anaerobic and get in a longer (time) ride at a given level of effort.

***Levo 6Fatttie FSR Class 1 pedelec


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think the bottom line is this: e-bikes can either be easier to ride at the same speed, or they can be considerably faster (at least uphill/on flats) with the same effort. Can we at least agree on that? This "they are not faster uphill" and "it just extends your range" stuff is nonsense. There is more power, hence either much less effort, or more speed.

I rode a LEVO and could hit the cutoff quite easily on 5-6% grade pavement climbs. It's fast as hell!

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt said:


> and "it just extends your range" stuff is nonsense.


Actually, it appears that daven007 purports that they're more likely to reduce your range in the post just above yours.

I'm so confused...


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> So I've heard from e-bike users here that electric bikes-
> 
> -are slower that a bicycle downhill
> -do not have as much range as a bicycle
> ...


First off, I like pedal assist bikes because they're a blast to ride! I also like them because they change up my riding. I can cover a lot of ground if I choose to. I also like the way I can session sections of trail if I choose to. But what I really like about pedal assist is that they allow those with injuries that normally couldn't ride without assist to get out there and have fun riding. I've had more than my share of injuries from racing bikes and moto. I have some days where my knee just doesn't like climbing, pedal assist allows me to keep on keeping on. Those with disabilities, and older folks now have a bike that will allow them to ride whereas they may not have been able to before. So yes, this bike serves a purpose in many ways.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mojoronnie said:


> But what I really like about pedal assist is that they allow those with injuries that normally couldn't ride without assist to get out there and have fun riding. I've had more than my share of injuries from racing bikes and moto. I have some days where my knee just doesn't like climbing, pedal assist allows me to keep on keeping on. Those with disabilities, and older folks now have a bike that will allow them to ride whereas they may not have been able to before. So yes, this bike serves a purpose in many ways.


I see that argument quite a bit on this forum and I just don't see that being a major use for Pedal Assist or any other type of Electric Powered Mountain Bike. I have have only ridden with 2 people who have eBikes, one is just a tech geek and loves buying toys, he put a throttle controlled Electric Motor on an Older Kona Stinky. It was a blast to ride around, but I certainly did not feel like I was getting any sort of workout by only using my thumb to motor along at faster speeds than I can consistently pedal at. The other guy I rode with had a Pedal Assist, it was not a Levo and I do not recall what the Wattage was on the motor. He said this was his 3rd Pedal Assist bike, and he paid $13k for it... way too rich for my blood. He had no injuries to warrant a motor, he just liked that is was less work for him to get to the downhills with the rest of us pedaling.

Now lets talk about me. In July 2012 I suffered an Aortic Dissection, basically a tear formed in my Aorta where it changes from the Ascending to descending Aorta and tore all the way into my left leg. I spent 16 days in the ICU and nearly died during the first week. The tear is still there and I am now on 3 different blood pressure meds to keep me alive. Even when I skip my afternoon dose of one of my BP Meds my Max Heart Rate is about 150 and the blood diversion in my aorta gives me a weak pulse in my legs, thus I get major Lactic Acid buildup in my legs when pedaling and though I am now in the best shape of my life, I am slower at climbing than when I was 25 years old(currently 38).

More info here if you are inclined:
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html

I could probably convince my Doctor to get me a Handicapped Placard, and having an electric motorized Mountain Bike could make it to where I am not constantly the last one to the top of all the climbs I do when riding with friends.

But I do not need that to get on my bike and pedal and still enjoy myself. I am not saying that some people with handi-caps "might" benefit from having a motor, I am saying that using that as an excuse for healthy people to run motors holds no water IMHO.

Where I really see a benefit for those with handicaps is on electric street bikes. Trips to the store, getting around town, etc.

The Majority of those who ride Electric Mountain Bikes are doing so because they are super fun to ride and way less work on the climbs, to deny that is foolish.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

shm, sometimes I ride my e-bike (commuting) with the motor off so the extra weight gives me more of a workout. Does that help clarify the situation?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ImaBum said:


> I agree


Then you're a hypocrite if you don't also welcome petrol bikes, atv's, tanks, etc. on every trail.

OK I suppose a tank _might_ be stretching it but remember, trail damage can be as subjective as trail impact.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

If you can pedal an e-bike, you can pedal a real bike. 
My father and sister both have handicapped placards. He's 72 and a disabled vet. She's got Cystic Fibrosis and runs about 50% of normal lung capacity on a good day. Neither has found a need to strap a motor to their bikes.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Walt said:


> "it just extends your range"


There's a pill for that, last I checked.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> shm, sometimes I ride my e-bike (commuting) with the motor off so the extra weight gives me more of a workout. Does that help clarify the situation?


In your case, it does. 
I think some of these other guys are mainly just throwing random **** against the wall to see if anything sticks.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> I think the bottom line is this: e-bikes can either be easier to ride at the same speed, or they can be considerably faster (at least uphill/on flats) with the same effort. Can we at least agree on that? This "they are not faster uphill" and "it just extends your range" stuff is nonsense. There is more power, hence either much less effort, or more speed.
> 
> I rode a LEVO and could hit the cutoff quite easily on 5-6% grade pavement climbs. It's fast as hell!
> 
> -Walt


Pretty much this.

The emtb proponents in this forum are almost without exception self identified as old and/or disabled and slow. Some are new to mountain bikes or newish without the skillset that an experienced mountain bike rider would have. This isn't a dig by any means, as I'm not a young fast guy either. However, looking at ebikes through the lens of your experience completely ignores those fit, fast and skilled guys who ride ebikes because a motor extends their range so they can self shuttle DH laps, rail turns up hill and ride faster in more places than they could before.

There are those who only want an assist, and those who want to rip. The rippers aren't wasting time on the forums.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, it might be worth thinking about how you'd ride an e-bike when you were 18 years old. That's what you're going to see on the trails, and it might not be pretty.

I know how I'd ride it...

-Walt


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

Well I dont drink beer and want them to remove the beer forum because it has nothing to do with bikes.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

NEPMTBA said:


> Dirtbikes RULE!
> 
> Everything on a modern mt bike came from dirtbike technology! Should they be allowed on mt bike trails? Hell no! But horses are and what part of your mt bike came from a horse?
> 
> ...


Yep, derailleurs came from dirt bikes. And dropper posts. And clipless pedals. And...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ryguy79 said:


> Yep, derailleurs came from dirt bikes. And dropper posts. And clipless pedals. And...


So, wait....are you saying motorcycles DIDN'T evolve from bicycles, but vice versa?

Hmmmm......:skep:


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

I cant wait til I get my levo, im going to get my fat arse to KOM every hill, thats my goal...


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> If your knee goes out making it impossible for you to pedal are you still able to pedal the motorbike?


In that case, no I would not be able to pedal as my knee motion would be VERY limited along with painful.

Thankfully it's my left knee, which makes driving not a horrible task. And if out walking I could always limp it distance wasn't too far from my home/vehicle or establishment.

That's where the throttle on my bike comes in handy - to get me back to my vehicle/home/establishment.

That is why I decided on a class II bicycle. "riding" in a gym is dreadful. I'd MUCH rather be outside in nature while working out my knee as required to better my situation. Walking doesn't provide enough movement and applies too much upward pressure for my treatment. Biking is pretty much the best solution either in a gym or the real deal. If I didn't have the option to throttle back if needed I wouldn't have bought a nice bike to actually get out and ride. And the pedal assist makes pedaling easier when my knee starts to get sore. So while I can't push as much weight at times - it's really all about easy weight when needed and the movement more than anything.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ImaBum said:


> In that case, no I would not be able to pedal as my knee motion would be VERY limited along with painful.
> 
> Thankfully it's my left knee, which makes driving not a horrible task. And if out walking I could always limp it distance wasn't too far from my home/vehicle or establishment.
> 
> ...


Okay, thanks for clearing that up.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I ride my Levo at 20% assist and that's really all you need for technical single track . At this rate it compensates for the weight of the bike and it gives you more power. That's really all that's needed in that type of riding. Turbo mode is extremely strong and really only use that on fire roads to get to more single track.

Uphill, no question you will be faster. Downhill, the bike is not as nimble and I can't ride it as quick. There is a small learning kerf riding the Levo, but only a few rides. 

I'm not handicapped, old, or slow. I ride this bike for pure enjoyment. Oh, and whoever says these bikes are not a workout is not riding hard enough or is a Turbo mode junkie. The bike weighs 50# and manualling obstacles and maneuvering is a lot more workout than my standard 6fattie.

The 6 fattie tires offer amazing traction and I know I do less trail damage because I don't slide anywhere.

If I see an ebiker or a regular mtbr being a jackass on the trails, I voice my opinion. STRAVA is the motivator for "faster" everything. Last I checked, nobody getting paid for KOM's. 

I can also see where some newbies on ebikes could be a potential issue given a heavy trail density and lack of experience.

If you got two wheels, ride on, just be mature.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

ryguy79 said:


> Yep, derailleurs came from dirt bikes. And dropper posts. And clipless pedals. And...


 You must rid e a "rigid" bicycle with v brakes...
LOL


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> You must rid e a "rigid" bicycle with v brakes...
> LOL


And you must not be able to understand that bicycles don't have motors.

Derrrrrr.....


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I just had a call the other day from a park ranger who told me we can have a demo in the park cause the Specialized Turbo Levo is legal to ride in all state parks in Pennsylvania.

Looks like it doesn't matter motor or not


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## sml-2727 (Nov 16, 2013)

nepmtba said:


> i just had a call the other day from a park ranger who told me we can have a demo in the park cause the specialized turbo levo is legal to ride in all state parks in pennsylvania.
> 
> Looks like it doesn't matter motor or not


woohoo!!!


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

NEPMTBA said:


> I just had a call the other day from a park ranger who told me we can have a demo in the park cause the Specialized Turbo Levo is legal to ride in all state parks in Pennsylvania.
> 
> Looks like it doesn't matter motor or not


I think someone needed to do this, in a large population base and see if there is an impact on trails. I would assume that it is somewhere where they can pull back if it fails without having to change the park system legislation. Opening the trails to users on e-bikes either indicates that bike users on these trails are few and far in between and adding e-bikes won't add to the congestion or conflicts as user numbers are low already or they are going for a pilot project test to see if there is any impact for adding users. Either way it will be interesting to see what goes on with these trails and whether it adds to any actual conflicts or just barking and *****ing between the 2 factions of two wheelers using the trails. Hopefully *NEPMTBA* will keep us informed about it.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

You can all stop the trolling. As I have said before if it bothers you start your own thread, be civil and courteous and don't beat a dead horse. Arguing semantics of motors is a dead horse. Arguing whether e-bikes = motorcycles is a dead horse. If you can't find a way to be constructive or helpful and find yourself just posting the same thing over and over again then post elsewhere because your message is not getting through or find a different way to interact with the users of this forum. This goes for both sides of this forum. If you are a proponent, it would pay to have a little grace when posting and a lot less hubris, it doesn't take much to get the pitchforks and torches burning. Also the ******* posts can end. My delete button works for all users.

This forum as 3 more active users than the site feedback forum. Leave it to the few remaining e-bike users and go play in the mountain bike forums with the rest of MTBR's users.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> You can all stop the trolling. As I have said before if it bothers you start your own thread, be civil and courteous and don't beat a dead horse. Arguing semantics of motors is a dead horse. Arguing whether e-bikes = motorcycles is a dead horse. If you can't find a way to be constructive or helpful and find yourself just posting the same thing over and over again then post elsewhere because your message is not getting through or find a different way to interact with the users of this forum. This goes for both sides of this forum. If you are a proponent, it would pay to have a little grace when posting and a lot less hubris, it doesn't take much to get the pitchforks and torches burning. Also the ******* posts can end. My delete button works for all users.
> 
> This forum as 3 more active users than the site feedback forum. Leave it to the few remaining e-bike users and go play in the mountain bike forums with the rest of MTBR's users.


I don't see that posting a link to an e-bike specific blog clarifying misinformation presented by someone that, as a moderator, should at least have some idea what he's talking about.

Is there anywhere else on this site where you would put up with moderators telling people that it's legal to ride trails that actually aren't open to them? And if call it 'trolling' if someone points out the facts to them?

How is it that NEPMTBA's post completely misrepresenting the facts isn't removed? Shouldn't at least moderators by held to some sort of standard where they can't just post something that's clearly mistaken and misleading wrt to legal trail access?

Or should this thread now be moved to Access since he decided it would be a good place to wrongly declare e-bike open season across an entire state?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't see that posting a link to an e-bike specific blog clarifying misinformation presented by someone that, as a moderator, should at least have some idea what he's talking about.
> 
> Is there anywhere else on this site where you would put up with moderators telling people that it's legal to ride trails that actually aren't open to them? And if call it 'trolling' if someone points out the facts to them?
> 
> ...


I agree that what you posted was correct but he also said that a park ranger called him and told him that e-bikes were allowed on PA state trails. Whether the park ranger misinterpreted the link you posted or not is just as much hearsay as whether NEPMTBA was actually told that by the park ranger. If NEPMTBA chooses to take responsibility for posting this, then who are we to say that he is wrong? He may have heard in good faith from the ranger that this was in fact the case, the ranger may have been erroneous in his assertion that this was in fact the case but we can't know that.

I take it as his responsibility to say that this is so, not ours to disprove him. At this point the only way that anyone would take a retraction on this is if NEPMTBA did it himself. No one will take your or my word on it would they? Considering that this forum is composed of about 10 e-bike proponents and many more antagonists it seems only fair that they receive the same response to people berating them as did 29ers in the early days or even single speeds in the early early days. Whether you think it is warranted or not it still needs to be done. For that matter, I will also slap down e-bike proponents that get all high and mighty, name calling or whatever.

Equal rights on all forums. That is you have equal right be moderated as forum guidelines suggest.

Edit: I have mentioned moving ebike access threads to trail advocacy but the general temperature would be that they would receive a less than enthusiastic reaction in that forum and it would be counter productive to the thread and the advocacy forum in general. Obviously we allow e-bike conversation to occur here but are less forgiving to access issues for them.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> I agree that what you posted was correct but he also said that a park ranger called him and told him that e-bikes were allowed on PA state trails. Whether the park ranger misinterpreted the link you posted or not is just as much hearsay as whether NEPMTBA was actually told that by the park ranger. If NEPMTBA chooses to take responsibility for posting this, then who are we to say that he is wrong? He may have heard in good faith from the ranger that this was in fact the case, the ranger may have been erroneous in his assertion that this was in fact the case but we can't know that.
> 
> I take it as his responsibility to say that this is so, not ours to disprove him. At this point the only way that anyone would take a retraction on this is if NEPMTBA did it himself. No one will take your or my word on it would they? Considering that this forum is composed of about 10 e-bike proponents and many more antagonists it seems only fair that they receive the same response to people berating them as did 29ers in the early days or even single speeds in the early early days. Whether you think it is warranted or not it still needs to be done. For that matter, I will also slap down e-bike proponents that get all high and mighty, name calling or whatever.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

So would posting an informational link to help NEPMTBA become more educated on the specifics of the change in law he refers to be acceptable or not? A park ranger may well have let him know that, yes, you can now bring e-bikes into state parks due to a change in the state laws to where e-bikes are not required to be registered with the DMV anymore (PA state parks previously didn't allow them technically because they were considered unregistered vehicles, which the parks don't allow).

As made clear by link I provided earlier, this has nothing to do with trail access though; it would be good if the moderator of this forum had those facts in front of him before declaring to a national audience that all PA State Park trails are open to e-bikes now. No one needs to take my word on anything; I was simply passing on information from an e-bike source closer to the situation, and who appears to be a lot more up to speed on it. It would seem as a moderator, NEPMTBA should do due diligence to get a better understanding of things like this before posting misleading information.

E-BikeKit? Electric Bicycle Blog | News, Articles, Tips & Tricks - Electric Bikes Are Now Legal on Pennsylvania Roadways!

"This is not universally meant to cover electric-assist bicycles on non-motorized trails or shared use paths, which may still be prohibited by policy in accordance with the intended use design"


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> So would posting an informational link to help NEPMTBA become more educated on the specifics of the change in law he refers to be acceptable or not? A park ranger may well have let him know that, yes, you can now bring e-bikes into state parks due to a change in the state laws to where e-bikes are not required to be registered with the DMV anymore (PA state parks previously didn't allow them technically because they were considered unregistered vehicles, which the parks don't allow).
> 
> ...


I would say that is could be a good thread to put in advocacy, a clarification of trail use for trails in general. Perhaps all the local trail people would post up what is legal and where it is legal for ebikes in their localities. Obviously we know the status in CA but in many other states it is less clear. Obviously even at the land manager level.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Huh?! A park ranger I talked to said they were closed to bikes with motors...


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Gentlemen,

I would say we are all going to see how this pans out, I will keep on this subject as I work directly with the parks in my area and I for one will be right in the mix as far as trails being used by e-bikes. I have no doubt if the trails become abused in a different way because of e-bikes we will be having a sit down with park staff.

As with many places our area has a lack of work force and getting the general public to help is difficult, so making more work due to use would only add to the problem.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Walt said:


> I still think the e-bike forum is here specifically to make e-bikes look bad, and NEPMTBA is in on the scheme. If you really wanted to keep things positive, OP, you shouldn't have posted this thread at all.
> 
> -Walt


 So this means you "will" build me a twelve inch travel, big braked, 36er e-bike?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

sml-2727 said:


> Well I dont drink beer and want them to remove the beer forum because it has nothing to do with bikes.


I don't drink beer or ride an ebike or race downhill, but I appreciate that others do...

But my wife drinks beer and she loves her ebike.

I know 36ers, and a long travel 36er would be nightmare, but Walt is your man if that's your heart's desire


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## michaeldorian (Nov 17, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I ride my Levo at 20% assist and that's really all you need for technical single track . At this rate it compensates for the weight of the bike and it gives you more power. That's really all that's needed in that type of riding. Turbo mode is extremely strong and really only use that on fire roads to get to more single track.
> 
> Uphill, no question you will be faster. Downhill, the bike is not as nimble and I can't ride it as quick. There is a small learning kerf riding the Levo, but only a few rides.
> 
> ...


After a couple rides on the LEVO this is my exact analysis of the whole thing. Can't wait to get one.


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## socalscott (Mar 28, 2010)

It's all about using technology to make us buy new bikes again.
No
The ebike is all about creating more traffic on Mtbr.com. Stamp it


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## michaeldorian (Nov 17, 2006)

socalscott said:


> It's all about using technology to make us buy new bikes again.
> No
> The ebike is all about creating more traffic on Mtbr.com. Stamp it


Exactly Scott. Just like cars. They keep adding more technology making us want new cars. Should have just stopped with the manual transmissions. What's up with all these awesome things they keep adding like advance dual clutch transmissions, lane assist, autopilot and now electric cars!?!?! I hope you protested with your wallet and kept it real with old the real old school tech and still driving a 4 speed clunker with no power steering. /sarcasm.

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Go ride one. It will change your mind.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

michaeldorian said:


> Go ride one. It will change your mind.


To be honest, most of us are not so easily amused or distracted by useless trinkets.


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## socalscott (Mar 28, 2010)

Seriously, these hybrids are not only fun, they can be used in different ways depending on terrain you ride and distance. Covering 60 miles and burning the energy equivalent to a standard mtb 20 mile ride in an afternoon....cool beans

I rode a buddies haibike 120mm fat tire in a dry creek bottom. Unstoppable short of tree falls.
Oh yeah, you can't ride faster than the trail allows, contrary to haters fears. Top speed is not increased, but average speed is increased.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Most people that post on this forum do not own one and have never ridden them. Almost every manufacture has an ebike model. 
Enjoy your Levo and be courteous to your fellow bikers, unlike most posters here.


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## michaeldorian (Nov 17, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> To be honest, most of us are not so easily amused or distracted by useless trinkets.


I seriously don't get it. Why are you coming in and posting in a e-MTB channel? If you don't like it, what are you doing here? What's the rationale?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

michaeldorian said:


> I seriously don't get it. Why are you coming in and posting in a e-MTB channel? If you don't like it, what are you doing here? What's the rationale?


Hey bud, what model do you have coming in? How much do you weigh?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

michaeldorian said:


> I seriously don't get it. Why are you coming in and posting in a e-MTB channel? If you don't like it, what are you doing here? What's the rationale?


Keep in mind, this IS a mountain bike site first and foremost. Many, many mountain bikers, the vast majority actually, feel the addition of a motor is more than just an upgrade, but rather changes the entire nature of the game. Many land managing agencies likewise. There is potential for serious access issues stemming from trying to merge motorized use into what has always been a strictly human-powered activity. Keeping that distinction is important IME if we want to maintain the access success we've enjoyed so far. At least that's my angle.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

socalscott said:


> Covering 60 miles and burning the energy equivalent to a standard mtb 20 mile ride in an afternoon....cool beans


I was in a meeting yesterday with my local parks dept regarding ebike regs, this is exactly one of the reasons they have no interest in allowing them on their 250 miles of singletrack. Cool beans.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Hey bud, what model do you have coming in? How much do you weigh?


As posted above, ACCESS. And the preservation of it. The motor is the line of demarcation.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> As posted above, ACCESS. And the preservation of it. The motor is the line of demarcation.


I wasn't asking you.. I was asking michealdorian. Why don't ya'll scream at Specialized, Giant, Trek, Focus, BMC, Haibike etc.. The marketplace dictates what we ride. Take a look at your own bike. Who's next? Niner, Yeti, Orbea etc? Last I checked, aren't we innocent till proven guilty?
I'm on here trying to talk about ebikes, not bark at the guys that buy them. Is EVERY forum trail advocacy??


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

michaeldorian said:


> I seriously don't get it. Why are you coming in and posting in a e-MTB channel? If you don't like it, what are you doing here? What's the rationale?


His rationale is he hates his life. Haters always bring negativity whenever and wherever they can. he posts about something he knows nothing about .. nothing!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> . Is EVERY forum trail advocacy??


Yes, especially when motorized vehicles put trails at risk.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> Yes, especially when motorized vehicles put trails at risk.


Trail advocacy? Bahahahahahahahahaha Go ride it before they pave it....


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Not an issue where I live. Just because your area or "you" personally don't like ebikes or they are against the law where you ride, doesn't make it right for us that buy them, ride them responsibly and legally to constantly listen to the motor bs. 
I'll gladly ride single track on my normal mtb all day with you. I doubt you'd say the same.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Not an issue where I live. Just because your area or "you" personally don't like ebikes or they are against the law where you ride, doesn't make it right for us that buy them, ride them responsibly and legally to constantly listen to the motor bs.
> I'll gladly ride single track on my normal mtb all day with you. I doubt you'd say the same.


I'd love to ride mtb with tiretracks or slaphead and see what they got. Very curious to see how they're skills match up with their mouths.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mojoronnie said:


> I'd love to ride mtb with tiretracks or slaphead and see what they got. Very curious to see how they're skills match up with their mouths.


Without an engine? I'd be happy to starve you into oxygen deprivation.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

tiretracks said:


> Without an engine? I'd be happy to starve you into oxygen deprivation.


Not likely bro. I was a pro on the road for 7 years. But you go ahead and try, knock yourself out. And when you're done trying I'll drop the hammer.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

mojoronnie said:


> I'd love to ride mtb with tiretracks or slaphead and see what they got. Very curious to see how they're skills match up with their mouths.


Where are you located? Come to western NC, and I'll be happy to show you around. Just leave your motorcycle at home.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

mojoronnie said:


> I'd love to ride mtb with tiretracks or slaphead and see what they got. Very curious to see how they're skills match up with their mouths.


As a technical trail rider Slaphead is beyond you. I don't even have to know how you ride to say this, because he is beyond most everyone. He hits 'one way' tech trails the wrong way, at 0 mph and makes it look like most of us riding a dirt carpet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

mattyice said:


> As a technical trail rider Slaphead is beyond you. I don't even have to know how you ride to say this, because he is beyond most everyone. He hits 'one way' tech trails the wrong way, at 0 mph and makes it look like most of us riding a dirt carpet.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Join me in Whistler/BC I'll show you what tech looks like with some fat drops along the way. Don't worry, there's a go around for you.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

mojoronnie said:


> Join me in Whistler/BC I'll show you what tech looks like with some fat drops along the way. Don't worry, there's a go around for you.


Do you pedal your e-bike up to? Do you use it to boost jumps?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

mojoronnie said:


> Join me in Whistler/BC I'll show you what tech looks like with some fat drops along the way. Don't worry, there's a go around for you.


also, if you're going to be a braggert on the Internet, this day in age video evidence of your supreme whistler slaying would help.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Let the Internet dick swinging commence!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Where are you located? Come to western NC, and I'll be happy to show you around. Just leave your motorcycle at home.


Must be you've been ripping some Farlow Gap! I'd love to ride up it on my Levo. Yes, I have ridden it many times on my 6fattie. WNC has awesome trails!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

You guys need to go get on the side x side forums and ***** about them for awhile, they are way more invasive in the backcountry than e bikes potentially are. Not that they can do single track but they can make accessing it an issue if you come on one unexpectedly like I did the other day.









Not sure why my pix always post sideways but you get the picture.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

mattyice said:


> Do you pedal your e-bike up to? Do you use it to boost jumps?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


I don't ride an e bike in whistler. I have many bikes to choose from, an e bike is not my only bike. There's no such thing as one bike does it all. But e bikes have there place. You can never have too many tools for the job.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Harryman said:


> Let the Internet dick swinging commence!


I just really felt like getting majoronnie all twisted up, because he's the most hillarious flame-troll I've ever seen. You can talk trash all you want, but unless you've got the footage to back it up... well...

I just picture him as an acne riddled 20 something, with a slick ibis mojo with brand new, never been scuffed pads and a brand new jersey parked right in the middle of a jump because 2 minutes of gravity riding is 'F'n epic gnar, bro' and 'exhausting'.

I'm sure this isn't the case, but that's the mental caricature I've asigned to him based on his internet ignorance.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Let's see some POVs guys. One man's gnar is another's tarmac.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

mattyice said:


> I just really felt like getting majoronnie all twisted up, because he's the most hillarious flame-troll I've ever seen. You can talk trash all you want, but unless you've got the footage to back it up... well...
> 
> I just picture him as an acne riddled 20 something, with a slick ibis mojo with brand new, never been scuffed pads and a brand new jersey parked right in the middle of a jump because 2 minutes of gravity riding is 'F'n epic gnar, bro' and 'exhausting'.
> 
> ...


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Procter said:


> Let's see some POVs guys. One man's gnar is another's tarmac.


I really think it's irrelevant, that's all he can resort to is 'I'm a sick gravity rider, bro'

My boy Slap has had his hand in every major trail network in central MA in one way or another, has built and maintained miles of sick singletrack, has advocated and built for LM'S

on the contrast Major has let gravity pull his fat assets down a trail

who is more poised to discuss the issues involving trail advocacy?

The grass-roots guy who is doing the work or the guy with the sick edit at a privately owned adventure park. Plus if your under the age of 50 and need an e-bike, I doubt you're as awesome as you think you are.

Not to mention you have no idea the crap storm moto guys have caused trail access here in MA. (I aledgedly was or wasn't part of that problem at on point or another)


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

mojoronnie said:


> I'm imagining everything you just said with that hideous Boston accent LOL You just made my day
> 
> look me up if you come out west.... and we'll let our riding do the talking


At the end of the day, rider ability has nothing to do with trail advocacy, which is a subject you are clearly ignorant of.

Adventure parks will always be around, you will always have Whistler and we will always have Thunder and Highland and Killington and Sunday River. Those places aren't going anywhere.

The places all of us ride everyday came by way of years of dedication and hard work by small groups of people and it's because of those people that someone like me can enjoy the vast trail networks we have today. Their concerns are legitimate. They just are.

I really don't think anyone wants to say 'No E-bikes' but the fear lies in that LM'S are going to treat everyone the same and everyone is back at square one. Which would suck because, especially here in MA it took so long to get what little we all have.

So yes, the people that have spent the past 2 decades building and advocating for everything that the local community is, have a bigger voice then you in the community and sit in a bigger chair. Not because they may or may not be better riders, but because they've given infinitely more to the sport than looking cool and letting gravity drag them down a park.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

"I'm a sick ass gravity rider bro"..... lol. It just keeps getting better! Keep telling yourself that. Bahahahhaa


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

mojoronnie said:


> "I'm a sick ass gravity rider bro"..... lol. It just keeps getting better! Keep telling yourself that. Bahahahhaa


I'm sure you heard this a lot from your Grammer school teacher, but go back and read that sentence again.

If anyone somehow derives that I was implying that I'm a 'sick gravity rider' (which I was not) from that sentence either has the reading comprehension of a 5th grader or enough residual concussion damage to warrant an MRI or at least some cognitive therapy.

I know this is a stretch, but I was implying that's how you viewed yourself and resorted to immature tactics of rider ability when that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (much like how I've further derailed the discussion).

I would say if you have such poor reading comprehension and writing ability that an online area in which a person must convey thoughts and ideas using the English language and engage in an environment which requires critical thinking might not be the place for you.

I'm sure this is familiar to you;

I give that post a D-

Do it again.


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## mojoronnie (Feb 26, 2012)

mattyice said:


> I'm sure you heard this a lot from your Grammer school teacher, but go back and read that sentence again.
> 
> If anyone somehow derives that I was implying that I'm a 'sick gravity rider' (which I was not) from that sentence either has the reading comprehension of a 5th grader or enough residual concussion damage to warrant an MRI or at least some cognitive therapy.
> 
> ...


Hey look at me, I'm from MA! We are the mecca of mtn biking with all of our wicked trails. . bla bla bla Who the hell goes to MA to mtn bike? Exactly. Ma is a kennedy time warp of pilgrims who live 50 years behind the times.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Wow! Thread is now going off the deep end...


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