# 29 x 35mm carbon fiber DERBY RIMS Grand Opening



## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi Friends,

Thank you all for providing so much technical trail bike knowledge. I've learned so much and met so many great people over my 15 years participating in the MTBR forums.

Now it's my turn to give back and serve the trail bike community, with what I know many including me have long been asking for.

I'm introducing here the first WIDE carbon-fiber rims for mountain bikes, 29 x35mm and 650b x 40mm.

See Home for details, and a limited sale price for the first 10 rim sets.

I want you to ride them first.

I could go on and on what a game changer these rims make in optimizing 2.1 and larger tire performance for stability, grip, and handling, with DH/FR durability and XC weight.

BTW, I've posted an MTBR classified ad. And updated my signature as per the forum policies.


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## yohyat (Mar 5, 2009)

derby said:


> Hi Friends,
> 
> Thank you all for providing so much technical trail bike knowledge. I've learned so much and met so many great people over my 15 years participating in the MTBR forums.
> 
> ...


on the 29er rim, how wide is the ID? where are they manufactured? Who designed them? is there a phone number we can call you to dicsuss?


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Nice to see you doing your own thing. Rims look great!


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## aosty (Jan 7, 2004)

Awesome - is L-B your OEM?


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## mxer (May 27, 2006)

Looks like 29 is 35mm outer and 29mm inner.Pulling the trigger on these right now!


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

Arch EX weight, Blunt 35 ID.....intriguing....


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## Nilsern (May 22, 2006)

Bummer. Only available in the US


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Noice!.. Can you possibly post some pics of common tires mounted on these? Spoke holes, molded or drilled?


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Really interested. How are these mounted to 100mm hubs? I ask because I've been changing bike configs a lot, and I'm starting to wish for something I'm not sure exists, which would be 135mm wide front suspension. I don't need much suspension. I have a Jones with a fat front that I like a lot, but sometimes I need just a little more than pneumatic suspension, but I like the precision of the wider stringer front wheel...


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Really interested. How are these mounted to 100mm hubs? I ask because I've been changing bike configs a lot, and I'm starting to wish for something I'm not sure exists, which would be 135mm wide front suspension. I don't need much suspension. I have a Jones with a fat front that I like a lot, but sometimes I need just a little more than pneumatic suspension, but I like the precision of the wider stringer front wheel...


http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/carver-bikes-trans-fat-suspension-fat-fork-ready-go-870885.html


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## 29ger (Jan 1, 2011)

These rims look like a sweet option. Now if I can only find a way to taco one of my crests without hurting myself, so I need a "replacement".


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Would have like to order a set but i'm in Europe...

Are you coming to eurobike ?


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Awesome product idea. Insufficient warranty. For example, Specialized (big, bad, I know) offers lifetime to the original owner, and crash replacement prices when you need them. No need to purchase ahead of time.

Sticking with the Rovals for now, but REALLY attracted to the size of these!


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## kidd (Apr 16, 2006)

i like the 27.5 light bikes on my trc. really unhappy with the crests on my tallboy? but $279 is a little steep for me. i guess i'll settle for another set of lb rims.


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## PauLCa916 (Jul 1, 2013)

kidd said:


> i like the 27.5 light bikes on my trc. really unhappy with the crests on my tallboy? but $279 is a little steep for me. i guess i'll settle for another set of lb rims.


How long you been running your LB Rim's ? TIA I'm either going LB or Roval waiting on price for Roval Hoops


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

kidd said:


> i like the 27.5 light bikes on my trc. really unhappy with the crests on my tallboy? but $279 is a little steep for me. i guess i'll settle for another set of lb rims.


It costs you $200 for each LB rim , landed in the USA. You are telling me you would not pay an extra $100 for an additional year warranty and a crash replacement program that would cost you 50 percent and you could be back on the trail in one week?.. Ha ha....


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

aosty said:


> Awesome - is L-B your OEM?


LB is not a manufacturer....have you not figured it out yet?..


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

YaMon said:


> It costs you $200 for each LB rim , landed in the USA. You are telling me you would not pay an extra $100 for an additional year warranty and a crash replacement program that would cost you 50 percent and you could be back on the trail in one week?.. Ha ha....


Where you getting the "$200" from? Its $50 to ship two LB rims. These Derby rims are $379 also.

Two LB rims shipped= $350
Two Derby rims=$758
Difference=$408


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Very cool you've decided to follow your passion and provide a neat product, but come on man, who's ridden these and tested them and such data you can provide, because these aren't super cheap??

Small suggestion for your web site..change the colour of the font so it is darker and easier to read for us older folkes. Also, seriously, you don't need WIDE in orange everywhere on the page, makes it seem like some BS scam page that try's pushing crap with buzz words.


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## kidd (Apr 16, 2006)

i built the wheelset last spring.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

In2falling said:


> Where you getting the "$200" from? Its $50 to ship two LB rims. These Derby rims are $379 also.
> 
> Two LB rims shipped= $350
> Two Derby rims=$758
> Difference=$408


LB - $165 x 2 = $330
Shipping $ 50
Paypal $19
TOTAL $399.....$400

DERBY is running a Special at $279 x 2 = $558 + Shipping..call it less than $600.

What is the difference ??

Oh, BTW. 3mm lip vs. 2mm lip means that the part that needs to be the strongest is going to be less prone to fail.

Have you calculated how much it will cost you to replace your LB rims ??


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Enough of the hijack of derby's thread. If you want to debate the LB rims go do it in the LB thread. TIA.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Wow. I feel so good hearing so many positive vibrations!

Other than my day job, and a short 2 hour ride before dark last night, since announcing the Grand Opening till now I've been non-stop replying to emails from derbyrims.com and filling orders.

The first day was great!



yohyat said:


> on the 29er rim, how wide is the ID? where are they manufactured? Who designed them? is there a phone number we can call you to dicsuss?


3mm thick "hookless" rim walls, which is 0.5mm more than the thickest hooked rim walls, adding minimal weight but much durability from rock hits when flatting, and a wide surface to prevent most tire or tube snake-bit pinch flats. Although, I managed to pinch flat my tire landing a drop on a sharp rock with very low tubeless air pressure, making minimal damage to the rim with no rim repair needed. See the web site for a picture of this damage.

The factory is confidential, but it's not in the US, I could not afford this risk otherwise. ENVE rims are the only make in the US, and this is the main reason each rim's MSRP is $900, and rumor is they will be producing rims in China soon as some of their other components are.



mxer said:


> Looks like 29 is 35mm outer and 29mm inner.Pulling the trigger on these right now!


mxer, Thank you so much for the order! You won't be disappointed. Yes, 29mm inner width, and coming in at 445 grams on average now, some a little lighter, a couple were up to 450 grams. XC light in weight, DH/FR durable.



rob1035 said:


> Arch EX weight, Blunt 35 ID.....intriguing....


My P35 is 1mm wider inner width. I was riding those, and then tried carbon rims and the weight drop was very noticeable, but the major loss in handling and stability with the same tires was very disappointing. So I started last October researching the feasibility of getting carbon fiber real wide rims made.

It turned out I had to invest in the molds to get it to happen, and design the rims. It's been very interesting, but I need to work a regular high tech high stress job to pay the bills. So working on this wide rim project mornings, evening, and weekends, it's been and still is a very long process in communication, design, critiquing, researching for any patent infringements (nope!), re-designing or adjusting design, communicating my design with the carbon fiber expert factory engineers and couple of carbon fiber manufacturing experienced friends, over many cycles, waiting for money transfers of my hard earned savings to get there trusting I wasn't going to be ripped off, then weeks waiting for the steel molds to be CNC'd and pictures of the first rims for testing, expert failure force testing, waiting for evaluation rims to build myself and ride (such an awesome experience riding my own design! and an instant handling confidence gain riding them, the performance improvement is incomparable, and that I was on the right track to proceed in risk), more design, communication, mold changes, setting up the business banking, business and sales licenses, bookkeeping myself, getting the web domain and building my own website and adding a shopping cart and designing and now managing that, proceeding with blind faith and much prayer that my very hard earned life savings was not just in vain, not just for my own ego inflation and riding pleasure. I almost quit 2 months ago, totally stressed out affecting my energy for my real job, to consider if I could be just to be satisfied I was riding these great rims and having learned much about rims and business. I stopped the project for a few weeks, then proceeded with recharged energy to bring these great rims to you guys at a price we career hard working recreational riders can afford. The first day of sales has been very encouraging!



Nilsern said:


> Bummer. Only available in the US


At this point, unfortunately, shipping from the US to outside the borders is extremely expensive for "oversized" packages with the major shipping companies, like $350 or more per rim set package. Maybe foreign individual buyers can find a way to order a pick up shipment at a reasonable cost with one of their counties shippers. I hope international bike industry distributors will be interested to make substantial orders which could be drop-shipped direct from the factory. Drop shipping would be much to complicated for individual sales, I'd need to charge more for the much greater communication and handling effort. But "where there's a will, there's a way". Somehow international sales will happen, I just don't know how yet. Stay tuned!



Dirty $anchez said:


> Noice!.. Can you possibly post some pics of common tires mounted on these? Spoke holes, molded or drilled?


Yes more pictures will be posted in time to the website. The spoke holes are drilled with enough room for nipple direction "float". One reason I decided on a deep parabolic rim wall design besides maximum stiffness and strength, was for room for alternatively using internal nipples such as ENVE rims are limited to, for a stylish look although that is heavier and very inconvenient for adjusting spoke tension after building. These thick spoke beds with the parabolic rim wall design do not fail in testing, spokes break first. The many layers of crossing direction UD fiber and thickness are effectively as strong as much more labor intensive molded holes. Although the molded holes may reduce weight for the strength as much as 10 to 15 grams per rim. ENVE does have a patent filed on this technique.



Wish I Were Riding said:


> Really interested. How are these mounted to 100mm hubs? I ask because I've been changing bike configs a lot, and I'm starting to wish for something I'm not sure exists, which would be 135mm wide front suspension. I don't need much suspension. I have a Jones with a fat front that I like a lot, but sometimes I need just a little more than pneumatic suspension, but I like the precision of the wider stringer front wheel...


The rear 135/142mm trail hubs have flanges that are about 90mm wide. The spoke holes are wide enough for sufficient nipple/spoke direction angles. I see no problem with using wide hubs for fat bikes, or 150mm DH rear hubs.



29ger said:


> These rims look like a sweet option. Now if I can only find a way to taco one of my crests without hurting myself, so I need a "replacement".


Ha! Keep those Crests in good condition,they could be sold to help offset the price of Derby Rims : )



20.100 FR said:


> Would have like to order a set but i'm in Europe...
> 
> Are you coming to eurobike ?


I'm working on getting international sales to happen. A Euro distributor could have a huge demand from Enduro riders.

I can't take the time from my regular job to get to Europe this year.



kosmo said:


> Awesome product idea. Insufficient warranty. For example, Specialized (big, bad, I know) offers lifetime to the original owner, and crash replacement prices when you need them. No need to purchase ahead of time.
> 
> Sticking with the Rovals for now, but REALLY attracted to the size of these!


Thanks for the suggestions. In my 30+ years trail riding experience, I've observed that manufacturing defects normally show up in the first month or six months or so of frequent riding of other components and rims. And the factory won't warranty more than 1 year. However, I could consider a longer defect warranty at my risk, I just don't want to get into what is a factory defect argument after years of heavy duty use as intended. Personally I think more than a year defect warranty is hype, except for metal fatigue and then 3 years seems more than a reasonable fatigue failure expectation for higher end.

I'm taking your crash replacement suggestion in consideration, it would need to be a higher price, the current price is below my costs. I should not loose because you crash or run over the rim with your truck. I expect crash damage that fails one of my rims would kill the rider! These rims are "overbuilt" according to an expert professional carbon-fiber design engineer.



kidd said:


> i like the 27.5 light bikes on my trc. really unhappy with the crests on my tallboy? but $279 is a little steep for me. i guess i'll settle for another set of lb rims.


It is steep for me too. But like cranks or dropper posts and other major components, the best cost more to produce and need to be priced to cover the higher costs and eventually profit.

Consider getting one wide rim for the front. Later a rear. The front end with narrow rims (I feel 30mm carbon rims are narrow), tends to wash out before the rear when hard cornering or up switchbacks. When I ran metal rims, I used a P35 only on the front, and a 28mm rear rim. Going back to narrow 30mm when I tried carbon rims was a major let down in handling performance and stability and directional control over rocks with much less side slip, so I began research on this wide rim project. And the rear wheel tends to follow the front. However, with the wide rims front and rear, the rear brake modulation is more powerful which makes the front tire grip better too in corners. The front end wash out is not really apparent with real wide rims front and rear, the same tire grips and rails in corners so much better.



In2falling said:


> Where you getting the "$200" from? Its $50 to ship two LB rims. These Derby rims are $379 also.
> 
> Two LB rims shipped= $350
> Two Derby rims=$758
> Difference=$408


Well my rims are currently $279 each for the first 10 sets ordered in each size, 29'r or 650b, which is $558 for a set plus $20 shipped anywhere in the US lower 48, add $20 more to Hawaii and $30 more for Alaska. International is too expensive to reasonably ship with cost quotes of $350 for the "oversized" packages from all the major carriers, so I'm hoping distributors will be interested to work out alternative production order shipping direct from the factory.

After the limited count Grand Opening price, it will rise, but probably no higher than $20 more per rim at first. That is until dealers and distributor buy in quantity (I hope!), then I'll have to maintain my direct order price at the full MSRP to support room for discounting to them, enough for both me and the resellers to make a buck, and room for them to discount below MSRP.



LyNx said:


> Very cool you've decided to follow your passion and provide a neat product, but come on man, who's ridden these and tested them and such data you can provide, because these aren't super cheap??
> 
> Small suggestion for your web site..change the colour of the font so it is darker and easier to read for us older folkes. Also, seriously, you don't need WIDE in orange everywhere on the page, makes it seem like some BS scam page that try's pushing crap with buzz words.


Noted. I do need to add the failure force test data to the web site. Only a few have ridden them so far with confidentially. Maybe they will post their impressions, they confirm with me my own riding impression of incredible handling, stability, and traction performance improvement without sacrificing any weight advantage compared to light weight 24mm wide metal rims.

And I was wondering if the copy font was too light, I will darken that and make larger (I also wish Dirt Rag and Bike Mag would increase their font size, maybe not have so much white space between the character rows.)

Well the WIDE is what I am hyping! Maybe I have over done it : ) The wide-ness is the major performance advantage of these light weight rims optimizing just about any trail and DH tire, besides the easy tire installation without levers, secure bead locks for tubeless preventing burps, stiffness, and incredible rock hit durability, not to mention the great look of the deep rims on any bike.

Thanks everyone! .... I'll check back when I can come up for air again and relax here.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Was wondering where you'd disappeared to Derby, but great response back to everyones questions.

On the "Who's ridden them" it would be a very good idea if the people who have ridden and tested them did do some reviews/write ups of their experience using them and what other rims/wheels they've used, what bike type they were used on and their style of riding.

To Font size, that's not an issue these days with current browsers, you only need to use CTRL+/- to change it, so wouldn't worry about that. As to font colour, I'm quite picky since I always believe the easiest/simplest solution is normally the best. Hear you on pushing the WIDE, but honestly, bolding it would make it stand out, but not as much as putting it in orange IMHO, but what do I know :skep:

Now all that aside, these have loads of potential, was looking at carbon rims but wasn't too impressed with the current offerings width wise. Personally can't afford any of these yet, but do plan to get a pair of Blunt35s to lace up and give a try on the Prime and rigid KM.

FYI, for international shipping, not sure about other places, but from here we can get freight forwarders in Miami who consolidate shipments to fill a container or pallet and charge a pretty reasonable rate, especially compared to the OS charge those couriers charge. They also handle the customs and all that other fun crap.


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## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

kosmo said:


> Awesome product idea. Insufficient warranty. For example, Specialized (big, bad, I know) offers lifetime to the original owner, and crash replacement prices when you need them. No need to purchase ahead of time.
> 
> Sticking with the Rovals for now, but REALLY attracted to the size of these!


I'm not sure if you've had to use the crash replacement on your Rovals yet, but for my Roval SL's it was $550 per rim, plus the cost to rebuild. I got lucky and it turned out to be a manufacturing defect, which Specialized just took care of (they do have a good warranty, can't argue with that), but I just wanted to point out that's a pretty steep crash replacement cost, and the initial cost is almost 2x these too.

I do find it interesting that he went with the "no bead hook" rim design, ala Specialized. I guess there's something to it.


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

These look really interesting, hope you sell a bunch!


If there are any Scandinavians in here:
Jetcarrier.com works really great for shipping items out of the US to Norway/Sweden/Denmark.


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Complaining about the warranty is ridiculous. Specialized is a billion dollar corporation and Derby is a privateer doing countless hours of leg work for a minimal profit on top of his 40+ hr a week day job. I'm happy there's any kind of warranty, period! Specialized could give away 1000 sets of Rovals tomorrow and it would barely be a blip on their accountant's radar. Derby probably won't sell a thousand sets in a year(no offense). 

Rant done...

Thanks for doing this, Derby. I love the design! Exactly what I would've designed for myself if I had the balls to do it. I bought a set


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

While i agree that it's great that someone felt strongly enough to follow their dreams and produce a product they wanted and thought there is a market for_ (think Derby is right in this regard)_, I cannot agree that just because you're a small company or one man operation that your product should be any less or not have the confidence to stand behind it for a reasonable time frame, i.e. warranty, than a big company - _If you're going to try and play with the "BigBoys", then expect to have to produce similar or better product and expectations of said products_.



DFYFZX said:


> Complaining about the warranty is ridiculous. Specialized is a billion dollar corporation and Derby is a privateer doing countless hours of leg work for a minimal profit on top of his 40+ hr a week day job. I'm happy there's any kind of warranty, period! Specialized could give away 1000 sets of Rovals tomorrow and it would barely be a blip on their accountant's radar. Derby probably won't sell a thousand sets in a year(no offense).
> 
> Rant done...
> 
> Thanks for doing this, Derby. I love the design! Exactly what I would've designed for myself if I had the balls to do it. I bought a set


If someone would care to, if there's no bead seat, then how does the tyre bead "seat" and stay on the rim?? Maybe I'm missing something simple, never claimed rocket scientist status so would appreciate the smarter ones explaining.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

I currently ride a set of carbon rims. They weight around 390grams. The OD is 30mm. I am not quite convinced that the derby rims are for me. I totally understand the stiffness angle and will agree that when I compare an aluminum rim to a carbon rim, there is no comparison. However, you have to weigh the advantages of light weight and the width/stiffness and I personally think that these are a little bit too heavy. One of the things that 29ers are plagued with is a heavy wheel set. In my mind the most important thing to make a 29er come alive and be a fun bike is to reduce the wheel weight. These may have the advantage of being super stiff, but it loses by adding too much weight and I believe the bike is not going to be a lively and fun to ride.....that being said, other riders may weight the stiffness of the rims greater than the weight. Just know what you want to get out of the product and buy the right one...


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Pics? TIA.


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

YaMon,
I wouldn't sweat 50gr too much. While I see what you're saying, if 50gr is a big deal, then these probably aren't for you anyway. How much does an ENVE AM rim weigh? Yea... The Flow EX, Velocity P35 "AM" crowd will be all over these in a heartbeat! These can actually produce a LIGHTER setup if you ran a lighter tire. I'm scared to run a non sidewall protection, über light tire on my current carbon rims from fear of crunching the bead hook. With the wider, 50gr heavier Derby rim, I wouldn't think twice about running a 100gr lighter tire because I'm not worried about the bead so I could SAVE weight in rotating mass All depends how you work the numbers.

Lynx,
The hookless design is just like a car or motorcycle bead. Modern mtb tires have such strong, tight beads, the hook really doesn't even do anything besides being a liability on a carbon rim. Specialized's new Roval Trail rims are hookless as well. It's an old technology being rehashed in modern times since the tire technology can now handle it. Derby has a slight "UST" style ridge(you can see in the cutaway picture on his website) that will keep the tire in the outer side of the wheel. His rim will be the norm in a few years. I see this rim as one of those visionary ideas that is far enough ahead of it's time that it will take a while to catch on.


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

LyNx said:


> if there's no bead seat, then how does the tyre bead "seat" and stay on the rim?


Ditto. More specifically, trying to figure out if the rims would be compatible for cyclocross using open tubular/clincher tires and latex tubes? While I have a couple sets of the LB XC carbon 29er rims with Specialized Trigger Pro tires and latex tubes for gravel/light trail use, those rims have a slight 'hook' on the inner bead and I am concerned that the lack of a 'hook' on the Derby rim bead might not be suited to the lower pressures with relatively narrower (32mm) cross tires.


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## mxer (May 27, 2006)

Derby,thank you for developing these and having the b!!!s to have them produced.Mine will be here next Tuesday.Do not know what bike I am building yet but at least I will have trick wheels built for it.LOL


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## steiny (Jul 8, 2004)

derby,

First - a correction. On your Buy Now page you list the specs for BSD as 584mm for both 650B and 29". I think you want something around 622mm for 29". Probably a copy/paste oversight when the page was created.

Second - hats off for taking on this project! I've been a fan of wide rims for almost a decade so this is really great news for me. I hope this really takes off. I'm not currently in the market for a new wheelset, but when I am (probably early next year), this will probably be the only rim on my short list.

Thanks and good luck!


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

I just got mine today! They're BIG!!! Pictures and numbers don't do these things justice. An old Flow literally fits INSIDE the rim bed of the Derby! I threw a tube and a Dampf on just to see what the volume was like. Massive. Tires fit very tight on these guys. My Dampf is used and has never been right enough to need a tire level to mount...until today. The bead seat is very tight and the UST style ledge makes getting them off a bit harder, which I find a good thing. The hookless design is nothing to be afraid whatsoever. Tires aren't going to roll off these guys or burp

The finish is MUCH better than my LightBicycle AM rims. A few imperfections here and there but it's matte carbon so it's to be expected. They'll be trashed within a few rides with me at the helm anyway. I couldn't be happier. Once my new hubs show up, off they go to Chad at The Barn There will be pictures...


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Id love to see some pictures of tires mounted on them, say next to a picture of the same tire on a typical narrower rim, something maybe in a 2.35 29er?


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

DFYFZX said:


> I just got mine today! They're BIG!!! Pictures and numbers don't do these things justice. An old Flow literally fits INSIDE the rim bed of the Derby! I threw a tube and a Dampf on just to see what the volume was like. Massive. Tires fit very tight on these guys. My Dampf is used and has never been right enough to need a tire level to mount...until today. The bead seat is very tight and the UST style ledge makes getting them off a bit harder, which I find a good thing. The hookless design is nothing to be afraid whatsoever. Tires aren't going to roll off these guys or burp
> 
> The finish is MUCH better than my LightBicycle AM rims. A few imperfections here and there but it's matte carbon so it's to be expected. They'll be trashed within a few rides with me at the helm anyway. I couldn't be happier. Once my new hubs show up, off they go to Chad at The Barn There will be pictures...


Can't wait to get mine 

Currently on its way to the Red Barn 

I've gone for a classic i9 front hub and cx spokes


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

OK Dude, since you're the first the task falls to you, as asked, pics of the same tyre mounted on these and say some LB ones and Flows if you have em and of course measurements. 


DFYFZX said:


> I just got mine today! They're BIG!!! Pictures and numbers don't do these things justice. An old Flow literally fits INSIDE the rim bed of the Derby! I threw a tube and a Dampf on just to see what the volume was like. Massive. Tires fit very tight on these guys. My Dampf is used and has never been right enough to need a tire level to mount...until today. The bead seat is very tight and the UST style ledge makes getting them off a bit harder, which I find a good thing. The hookless design is nothing to be afraid whatsoever. Tires aren't going to roll off these guys or burp
> 
> The finish is MUCH better than my LightBicycle AM rims. A few imperfections here and there but it's matte carbon so it's to be expected. They'll be trashed within a few rides with me at the helm anyway. I couldn't be happier. Once my new hubs show up, off they go to Chad at The Barn There will be pictures...


As to ragging on Derby, that all part and parcel of having the cahones to start up something like this and feedback/criticism does help, once it's constructive and I think it has been. You can't blame people for questioning about warranty etc in these tough times, when a set of these rims will set you back the more than the cost of a decent wheelset like Pro2/Flows. I'll say though, if I had the coin I'd give them a go as I like wide and light would be nice, but it's the stiffness I want more than uber lightweight.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

LyNx said:


> OK Dude, since you're the first the task falls to you, as asked, pics of the same tyre mounted on these and say some LB ones and Flows if you have em and of course measurements.
> 
> As to ragging on Derby, that all part and parcel of having the cahones to start up something like this and feedback/criticism does help, once it's constructive and I think it has been. You can't blame people for questioning about warranty etc in these tough times, when a set of these rims will set you back the more than the cost of a decent wheelset like Pro2/Flows. I'll say though, if I had the coin I'd give them a go as I like wide and light would be nice, but it's the stiffness I want more than uber lightweight.


It would be interesting to test all the carbon rims for stiffness. However ...keep in mind that you could have a rim that tests stiff and you would never be able to reach that limit....so in the end it would be a waste.

Eg...I sell a hurricane screen that the Building Code says the connection have to pass 400 pounds of pressure. Brass grommets pass at 600 pounds. There are 2 other connections that pass at 14,000 and 15,500 pounds of pressure.....at that pressure the house will not be standing anyways....


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

So here is something interesting. I have 2.25 Schwalbe Racing Ralphs mounted 30mm wide rims. When I measure the distance between the edge of the rim and the edge of the tire, it is 10mm. Does this mean that with the same tire mounted to a 35mm wide rim, the distance will be 7.5mm ??


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

LyNx said:


> OK Dude, since you're the first the task falls to you, as asked, pics of the same tyre mounted on these and say some LB ones and Flows if you have em and of course measurements.


I'll get some pics and measurements tomorrow. They showed up about 30 minutes before I had to leave for a business trip so I didn't have any time to get pics/measurements done properly


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

This is really exciting. Thanks for taking the plunge on this so we can have sweet toys to play with. I hope this works out for you (and us). Budget won't allow me to pull the trigger on these currently, but if things are on track when it does, these will be on my next wheelset.


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## Ragz22 (Mar 10, 2013)

Pics


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Sorry guys. Got home at 0830 yesterday and got called right back out for another trip! I WILL be posting pics before I send them off to Chad so sit tight


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

So you just dumped our needs that quick, Crushed & now I have to tell my wife that I have to buy some to look at just because you didn't take the time to take photo's.

I'm glade it's your fault & not mine.



DFYFZX said:


> Sorry guys. Got home at 0830 yesterday and got called right back out for another trip! I WILL be posting pics before I send them off to Chad so sit tight


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh boy... Now I have ANOTHER wife mad at me??? Haha


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## thickfog (Oct 29, 2010)

I'll be building up my next wheelset with these.  

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4


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## Surfdog93 (May 30, 2005)

Looking forward to more pics and trying a front wheel to start.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Hey Muzz, since DFYFZX was so inconsiderate, why not, when you're purchasing your rims add another 2 and send to me, I take excellent photos and would most likely get them before you anyhow  Also have a decent selection of tyres to try on them, so definite win/win for ya and I mean seriously, like the wifeys gona get any more bent outa shape for you spending dosh on 2 more rims 


muzzanic said:


> So you just dumped our needs that quick, Crushed & now I have to tell my wife that I have to buy some to look at just because you didn't take the time to take photo's.
> 
> I'm glade it's your fault & not mine.


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

I just brought another set off I9 wheels & she has pinched them, So I am a set of wheels down.

The joke is every time she goes away with work I buy a bike or something for a bike. Last week she had to work Australia & I brought a bike & the I9's.

In 2 weeks time she has to work in England for to weeks, Then 3weeks after she is back she has to work in Australia for a week & then back in new Zealand for 2 weeks & then she is Working back in Australia for a week.

So it may be a bit hard to keep up my record of buying things I shouldn't.



LyNx said:


> Hey Muzz, since DFYFZX was so inconsiderate, why not, when you're purchasing your rims add another 2 and send to me, I take excellent photos and would most likely get them before you anyhow  Also have a decent selection of tyres to try on them, so definite win/win for ya and I mean seriously, like the wifeys gona get any more bent outa shape for you spending dosh on 2 more rims


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

I've just now got time and energy to return to MTBR. The response has been great. Besides my day job, I've spent nearly all my time shipping orders and corresponding to many emails from the Contact Us page on my web site and shopping cart. And barely able to get shorter rides in on the weekends, besides riding to my day job when I don't drive to drop off orders to ship. I want to rig up a rack on my bike to carry a few rim set boxes to drop off on the way to work.

After the 650b sales rocketed to the lead the first few days by 72%/28% over 29'r sales, now 29'r sales have rolled up momentum and taken over the sales lead, 54%/46%, and are pulling away!



LyNx said:


> Was wondering where you'd disappeared to Derby, but great response back to everyones questions.
> 
> On the "Who's ridden them" it would be a very good idea if the people who have ridden and tested them did do some reviews/write ups of their experience using them and what other rims/wheels they've used, what bike type they were used on and their style of riding.
> 
> ...


LyNx, I did take some of your advice and darkened the font from a light gray to a dark gray, it was pretty light especially when the background was a light brown. I kind of like the orange "wide" here and there, I hope it helps keep reader interest to read the whole story, and "burn" the "wide" term into their memory. Who knows!

I am finding some alternatives for international shipping, It looks like USPS will ship from me to Europe for about $60 for a set of rims 3 - 5 days International Express, about $10 less for 6 - 10 day shipping to Europe. And I'm working out a direct from factory shipping option, which may be more costly about $70 to countries that USPS does not carry to or at a much higher rate. For example Australia only has a very high rate for 2 day shipping USPS, over $150 shipping per set of rims. I imagine once I learn the customs forms it won't be much more work to handle international.

I really liked what the 35mm P35's did to my 650b tires and bike handling and they were only 100grams each heavier than the 28mm rims I was using before. But to pile on some more hype... my rims, derbyrims, are lighter than the 28mm rims by almost 100 grams and the 650b x 40mm are wider... stronger, stiffer, lighter ....



DFYFZX said:


> Complaining about the warranty is ridiculous. Specialized is a billion dollar corporation and Derby is a privateer doing countless hours of leg work for a minimal profit on top of his 40+ hr a week day job. I'm happy there's any kind of warranty, period! Specialized could give away 1000 sets of Rovals tomorrow and it would barely be a blip on their accountant's radar. Derby probably won't sell a thousand sets in a year(no offense).
> 
> Rant done...
> 
> Thanks for doing this, Derby. I love the design! Exactly what I would've designed for myself if I had the balls to do it. I bought a set


I would be so stoked if I could sell 100 sets, I could get more aggressive with promotion, offer deep discounts to high profile racers to promote and gain media attention, and pay for booth space at expos, and such. In the first week I shipped 12 sets, so "only" 88 sets to go. I'm hoping the first customers posting ride reviews of my rims will really boost the confidence of others to buy. Should be any day now....

I will be handling warranty. No delays or expensive shipping back to Asia. I don't want to jinx myself, but I don't expect any warranty defects or crash damage problems. These rims are tough, overbuilt by design to endure DH/FR with enough tire air pressure for the situation, while being nearly XC-race light in weight.



LyNx said:


> While i agree that it's great that someone felt strongly enough to follow their dreams and produce a product they wanted and thought there is a market for_ (think Derby is right in this regard)_, I cannot agree that just because you're a small company or one man operation that your product should be any less or not have the confidence to stand behind it for a reasonable time frame, i.e. warranty, than a big company - _If you're going to try and play with the "BigBoys", then expect to have to produce similar or better product and expectations of said products_.
> 
> If someone would care to, if there's no bead seat, then how does the tyre bead "seat" and stay on the rim?? Maybe I'm missing something simple, never claimed rocket scientist status so would appreciate the smarter ones explaining.


Any carbon fiber defect would show up while building the wheels or during the first few rides without crash impacts. I just don't want to get in to what is defect or crash damage after a year of hard riding as these rims are designed for. I'm considering a crash damage warranty as needed at a near cost to me price... I had followed Enve's terms there, to buy crash damage at the time of rim purchase, just a drop in the bucket for their rich buyers I guess...

Hookless rim walls:
With tubeless ready bead seat design, tightly centering the tire around a rim, the upper bead hook is useless, even when using tubes, and weakens a rim, especially carbon rims. The clincher side hooks were useful back when rims had no bead seats for centering the tire around rims as they aired up. Dirt motorcycles don't have hooks, cars don't. Have a look at the Specialized Roval carbon rims, they have returned to having no side bead hooks. Clincher bead hooks is really an older rim design, the side hooks or "clincher" bead hooks, first became used in the early '70s when high pressure inner tubed road tires had trouble centering on the rim when airing up to 65+ psi and would blow off the rim sooner or later. Centering a tire is not a problem now with the tire centering TR inner bead seats now common. And my rim side walls rise 6mm above the bead seat, slightly more than most aluminum rims also keeping loosely beaded tires on the rims when aired up. There rims can easily take 80psi.

Bead locks:
Notice my rims have a bead seat locking "lump" or ridge next to the deep channel around both bead seats. Much like UST bead seat design, this keeps a tubeless bead from sliding inward into the channel and burping while hard cornering. Also the bead locks keep the bead on the bead seat when the tire goes flat, so the flat tire can protect the rim from rock damage while rolling to a stop after flatting.



YaMon said:


> I currently ride a set of carbon rims. They weight around 390grams. The OD is 30mm. I am not quite convinced that the derby rims are for me. I totally understand the stiffness angle and will agree that when I compare an aluminum rim to a carbon rim, there is no comparison. However, you have to weigh the advantages of light weight and the width/stiffness and I personally think that these are a little bit too heavy. One of the things that 29ers are plagued with is a heavy wheel set. In my mind the most important thing to make a 29er come alive and be a fun bike is to reduce the wheel weight. These may have the advantage of being super stiff, but it loses by adding too much weight and I believe the bike is not going to be a lively and fun to ride.....that being said, other riders may weight the stiffness of the rims greater than the weight. Just know what you want to get out of the product and buy the right one...


For XC racing, a narrow 30mm lighter rim, 40 to 50 grams lighter, is an advantage for smooth hill climbing, where most time is gained in an XC race.

Wider rims are more fun to ride, more stable, grip much better, and the much lower tire pressures enabled roll rocky conditions easier. I'm no XC racer, but I bet there are some rougher race courses where a 40 gram heavier really wide rim having more handling stability, much improved traction with the same tires, and less rock rolling resistance, added up to beat lighter climbing rims.



Maxrep said:


> How about we all cut him a little slack in the spirit of reality? When his prices rise to meet those of Specialized and Envy, then there is every reason to expect more from a warranty.
> 
> Derby, don't let anyone rain on your parade. Don't know if you were around when Stan entered the mtbr forums. Everybody and their brother lined up to kick him in the teeth in public, and to assure him of failure. Same thing happened with the introduction of 29ers here.
> 
> ...


Yes I recall when Stan entered with his system, evolved from word of mouth mixes of home made latex sealant and ghetto rim strips (split and trimmed inner tubes), there was a lot of drama on the forums about "Tubes or No Tubes". I haven't introduced anything new, just put together all the best features done before in various other rims, and resurrected the classic wide rim having huge performance gains for trail riding, now without the big sacrifice of adding rolling weight.... well one thing is new, the thickest rim wall ever outside the tire bead which should cure nearly all big hit impact failures.

Tubulars do seem ultimate for XC racing, lighter than sealant converted tubeless. I'll have to take a closer look. After my immediate goal of paying back my investment risk of decades of hard earned savings, I want to expand in rim options.



DFYFZX said:


> YaMon,
> I wouldn't sweat 50gr too much. While I see what you're saying, if 50gr is a big deal, then these probably aren't for you anyway. How much does an ENVE AM rim weigh? Yea... The Flow EX, Velocity P35 "AM" crowd will be all over these in a heartbeat! These can actually produce a LIGHTER setup if you ran a lighter tire. I'm scared to run a non sidewall protection, über light tire on my current carbon rims from fear of crunching the bead hook. With the wider, 50gr heavier Derby rim, I wouldn't think twice about running a 100gr lighter tire because I'm not worried about the bead so I could SAVE weight in rotating mass All depends how you work the numbers.
> 
> Lynx,
> The hookless design is just like a car or motorcycle bead. Modern mtb tires have such strong, tight beads, the hook really doesn't even do anything besides being a liability on a carbon rim. Specialized's new Roval Trail rims are hookless as well. It's an old technology being rehashed in modern times since the tire technology can now handle it. Derby has a slight "UST" style ridge(you can see in the cutaway picture on his website) that will keep the tire in the outer side of the wheel. His rim will be the norm in a few years. I see this rim as one of those visionary ideas that is far enough ahead of it's time that it will take a while to catch on.


Well I have to agree somewhat with YaMon on the weight difference, 2 x 50 grams is almost a quarter pound of rolling weight to accelerate compared to narrower less durable carbon fiber race rims. And for elite/pro level XC racing the ability to accelerate to pass and climbing is enhanced by lower rolling weight. For sport class racers, no, the weight difference is negligible. And even for elite/pros there probably are some very challenging rocky rough race courses where the huge handling and lower tire pressure rolling advantages of wider rims would out perform over race distance, compared to quicker smooth trail climbing advantages of a lighter narrower carbon rims.

And regarding hookless rim walls, the tubeless ready bead seats and typically well made beads these days stay well centered and secure on the rim without bead hooks. In 3 months of riding my rims and tubeless converted tires under 20psi in front under my 200+ ride weight, I have never burped air past the bead.



steiny said:


> derby,
> 
> First - a correction. On your Buy Now page you list the specs for BSD as 584mm for both 650B and 29". I think you want something around 622mm for 29". Probably a copy/paste oversight when the page was created.
> 
> ...


Yes, a copy and paste then edit mistake! 622 BSD for the 29'er rims. Thanks, I did see this a few days ago and got time to fix it only recently.

I hope I can keep my price where it is, or not much higher. But there are dealers and distributors already interested and corresponding a lot of interest, and I will have to raise the price to make more room for them to make a buck and offer discount prices to their customers too.



YaMon said:


> So here is something interesting. I have 2.25 Schwalbe Racing Ralphs mounted 30mm wide rims. When I measure the distance between the edge of the rim and the edge of the tire, it is 10mm. Does this mean that with the same tire mounted to a 35mm wide rim, the distance will be 7.5mm ??


The tire profile widens next to the rim 1:1, but further towards the height of the tread the casing widens much less to none at all near the top/center of the tire's cross section profile, but stiffens the casing tension under the edge knobs more ....increasing the tire patch stability, and cornering traction bite... due to the belt-like resistance to stretching taller or wider of the angle of the casing closer to the tread.

So roughly speaking, about half way up from the rim to top, the casing widens about half as much as it widens near the rim. So, again roughly speaking, the widest cross section of the casing would widen about 1 to 1.5 mm at the casing's widest cross section on each side, going from a 30mm to 35mm rim width.

The shape of the tread flattens, the edge knobs gain more stiffness and cornering bite, the tire can be run with much lower pressures allowing easier rolling over rocks small and large, and more traction climbing, braking, and cornering.



mxer said:


> Derby,thank you for developing these and having the b!!!s to have them produced.Mine will be here next Tuesday.Do not know what bike I am building yet but at least I will have trick wheels built for it.LOL





DFYFZX said:


> I just got mine today! They're BIG!!! Pictures and numbers don't do these things justice. An old Flow literally fits INSIDE the rim bed of the Derby! I threw a tube and a Dampf on just to see what the volume was like. Massive. Tires fit very tight on these guys. My Dampf is used and has never been right enough to need a tire level to mount...until today. The bead seat is very tight and the UST style ledge makes getting them off a bit harder, which I find a good thing. The hookless design is nothing to be afraid whatsoever. Tires aren't going to roll off these guys or burp
> 
> The finish is MUCH better than my LightBicycle AM rims. A few imperfections here and there but it's matte carbon so it's to be expected. They'll be trashed within a few rides with me at the helm anyway. I couldn't be happier. Once my new hubs show up, off they go to Chad at The Barn There will be pictures...





Jamie_MTB said:


> Can't wait to get mine
> 
> Currently on its way to the Red Barn
> 
> I've gone for a classic i9 front hub and cx spokes


Thanks guys for your courage to buy before more ride reports. You won't be disappointed!

I am really looking forward to your ride reviews and pictures of them on your trails!


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Are you only doing super wides? Nothing in more of an XC width in the future?


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

on the 29er rim, with a 29mm inner width.. Would that be too wide for something like a 2.1 tire?


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

I hope not, For 1 why build what is already out there.

I would rather see more options in wide.



G-Choro said:


> Are you only doing super wides? Nothing in more of an XC width in the future?


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

muzzanic said:


> I hope not, For 1 why build what is already out there.


because there arent any affordable hookless rims available? The rovals are only sold as a "system" (aka complete wheels).


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

SandSpur said:


> because there arent any affordable hookless rims available? The rovals are only sold as a "system" (aka complete wheels).


I thought LB said they were going to make some.

There was 1 other outfit that were going to make some to, I can't remember who it was, Might have to go back through emails.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

LB should have a hookless rim in a matter of weeks.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

I am still not sold on this hookless thing....guy that has a set of Rovals posted that he had a flat and with the hookless design, the tires just separate from the rims....he had a hell of a time trying to air them back up.....you almost need someone to hold it together while someone pumps them up till there is enough air to support itself.

In addition not all tires have been tested to see if they work with the hookless design. I can't see why you could not have a 3mm thick lip with a slight / modified hook.

I also hope Derby did his homework on the patents because Stan's and Mavic have a lot of patents on the rim designs...


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

YaMon said:


> I am still not sold on this hookless thing....guy that has a set of Rovals posted that he had a flat and with the hookless design, the tires just separate from the rims....he had a hell of a time trying to air them back up.....you almost need someone to hold it together while someone pumps them up till there is enough air to support itself.
> 
> In addition not all tires have been tested to see if they work with the hookless design. I can't see why you could not have a 3mm thick lip with a slight / modified hook.
> 
> I also hope Derby did his homework on the patents because Stan's and Mavic have a lot of patents on the rim designs...


Tires falling off is NOT an issue. I just swapped tires to take some pictures for you guys and the tires were so dang hard to get off I almost gave up! The "UST ridge" Derby designed in holds the bead like a bear trap! These are actually more secure than any Stan's rim I've ever used.


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Some terrible pics for you guys. Old school Stans Flow, Derby rim and two matching Geax Gato 2.3s...

Derby rim EATS the Flow whole!


Girth of the Derby





440+/- 10 grams


Flow left - Derby right. 40lbs and a tube in each.






Casing on Flow


Casing on Derby


BONER!!!


Hope that gives you guys an idea.


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## Ragz22 (Mar 10, 2013)

:thumbsup: Nice work


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

For you guys looking for hokeless asymetric carbon rims made in europe, check out 
Jantes DUKE www.jpracingbike1.com
ha also got a new AM rim, 440g like derby, but 5mm narrower, so Derby still got an advantage here !


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## crit_boy (Jul 31, 2007)

YaMon said:


> I also hope Derby did his homework on the patents because Stan's and Mavic have a lot of patents on the rim designs...


Unless he searches for a living, I hope he paid someone else to look.

I was actually thinking the other way around too. Derby needs to get their patent application filed. The clock is ticking in the AIA grace period (unless they already filed). . .


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

No Sandspur, they would not be too wide for a 2.1" wide tyre, just do the math, 2.1"=53.34mm, which is still nearly 20mm wider than the rim. Now how it may effect the profile of said tyre is a different story, especially if you're accustomed to running it on a narrow (<25mm) rim, would really flatten out the profile compared to say running that same tyre on a 19mm or 22mm wide rim.



SandSpur said:


> on the 29er rim, with a 29mm inner width.. Would that be too wide for something like a 2.1 tire?


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

I want these bad.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Yeah, 5mm difference, but let's not also forget the "little" price difference You can get 2 of Derby's rims _(with change to spare)_ for the cost of 1 of those - Holy fvck, $730 US for 1 rim ut: :skep:


20.100 FR said:


> For you guys looking for hokeless asymetric carbon rims made in europe, check out
> Jantes DUKE www.jpracingbike1.com
> ha also got a new AM rim, 440g like derby, but 5mm narrower, so Derby still got an advantage here !


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

LyNx said:


> No Sandspur, they would not be too wide for a 2.1" wide tyre, just do the math, 2.1"=53.34mm, which is still nearly 20mm wider than the rim. Now how it may effect the profile of said tyre is a different story, especially if you're accustomed to running it on a narrow (<25mm) rim, would really flatten out the profile compared to say running that same tyre on a 19mm or 22mm wide rim.


I just didnt know if a 2.1 would have too flat of a tread pattern.. sorta like a car tire, which would lose too much traction in a lean like you would on a bike


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

SandSpur said:


> I just didnt know if a 2.1 would have too flat of a tread pattern.. sorta like a car tire, which would lose too much traction in a lean like you would on a bike


Since the wider rim would allow for more volume thus less air pressure, the tire would actually corner better as it would remain more square to the ground as you lean the bike rather than only have the outer knobs touching.

For someone lightweight like me, who can run 15psi on a 30mm rim with 2.4" tires, the advantage of a wide rim, no matter tire width, can be experienced first hand and I can clearly see my front tire grabbing loose terrain instead of washing out.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

derby-
I see that you recommend 12mm Stan's yellow tape for tubeless application.
Interesting, I've wondered why the 21mm and 25mm tape was used on narrow rims, where in some cases the tape was wider than the rim bed. Did this create a sort of "bead-lock" effect?

Curious about your experience running narrow tubeless tape. Did you use the same set up on aluminium rims?

The 650b x 40mm looks amazing! I need to find out if it will fit on my made for 26" Fox 36 Float RLC!


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Well, I took the plunge (or is it risk) and ordered up a pair for myself. I'll be building them up on black Hope hubs with black DT Comp spokes and black DT brass nipples. The massive width of these rims should go well with my new Enduro 29 and I'm looking to grabbing some extra traction for my wet winter North Shore rides! 

I'll post some pics when I get them built in approximately 2 weeks.


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

bog said:


> Well, I took the plunge (or is it risk) and ordered up a pair for myself. I'll be building them up on black Hope hubs with black DT Comp spokes and black DT brass nipples. The massive width of these rims should go well with my new Enduro 29 and I'm looking to grabbing some extra traction for my wet winter North Shore rides!
> 
> I'll post some pics when I get them built in approximately 2 weeks.


Have you bought the hubs already?

Hope have just announced a new pro2 Evo hub with 40t engagement due out in Oct.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Jamie_MTB said:


> Have you bought the hubs already?
> 
> Hope have just announced a new pro2 Evo hub with 40t engagement due out in Oct.


I've had the hubs for a while sitting and waiting for some new rims. Personally I don't put too much stock in quicker engagement hubs because I'm not ratcheting pedals all that much and a few degrees more rotation doesn't do much to make or break a ride.

Thanks for the heads up though,it'll be something to look into for my next build.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Ahhhh! ....I'm finally able to return here to catchup with the derby WIDE rim buzzzz!

First, as some have seen in the shopping cart notice, I ran out of 650b rims a couple days ago. More are currently air shipping here from the factory. I'm anxiously watching the shipper's tracking notices, and baring any unusual delays in transport, I expect to have more in hand in 3 or 4 days to ship to my 650b customers. I'll be shipping them in the same order I receive customer orders, and won't charge your credit card until I pack them to ship to you.

I recently placed another much larger production run order with the factory for both derby rim sizes. I had no idea of the initial customer response and did not have a large inventory to start with. I may have a few days gap without 29'r x 35mm rims in stock soon too. The next production run of 29'ers should be shipping to me in a day or two, so maybe no delay there.

The Grand Opening sale price of $279, which is $100 per rim below my intended MSRP is extended. I will eventually need to raise the price to support the soon coming distributors and dealers to have room to make a buck, because these rims are much higher cost overhead for them compared to aluminum rims. Carbon-fiber is 6 to 8 times the direct cost of labor and materials of aluminum rims, frames, bars, cranks, etc.

Also I've updated the crash replacement warranty to be as-needed and very near my direct from factory cost. See: Warranty



G-Choro said:


> Are you only doing super wides? Nothing in more of an XC width in the future?


I believe 35mm is a better XC width. I hope someday soon to have a 29'er x 40mm, and 26" x 40mm. Possibly a fat bike carbon fiber rim. Not necessarily in this order. The cost to produce a new rim size is very large. I am curious to know how cyclecross tires do on my rims, I imagine they would help performance in all the same ways as with a bigger tire.

There is very little weight to loose by going to a narrower carbon fiber rim, about 15 grams per 5mm in width, not enough to make a enough weight performance gain over the huge loss in stability and grip while climbing braking and cornering.

I'm certain we will hear XC racers rave about the benefits of the 29'er x 35mm derby rim. The 32mm deep derby rim is deeper than any other rim allowing shorter spokes by 8 to 10mm per spoke of metal heavier than the rim's added depth. 24 and 28 spoke holes can be special ordered, with about a 3 week wait. I will stock these lower spoke count rims in the future. Also the wider rim's huge improvement in traction for nearly any tire a could allow riders to go to a lighter tread or smaller size tire with no net loss in performance, further lowering rolling weight.



SandSpur said:


> I just didnt know if a 2.1 would have too flat of a tread pattern.. sorta like a car tire, which would lose too much traction in a lean like you would on a bike


Going to wider rims, mountain bike tires become a little less round in cross section profile, commonly called more "square", but it's not at all square, just slightly taller edge knobs with firmer casing tension under the edges of the tread, adding up to far more cornering grip and handling stability. Riders can use much lower air pressures with the more stable casing tension effect of wider rims, the cornering grip is much improved, and the lower pressures improve the feel of cornering traction sliding predictably with ability to use steering corrections to recover without suddenly washing out.



YaMon said:


> I am still not sold on this hookless thing....guy that has a set of Rovals posted that he had a flat and with the hookless design, the tires just separate from the rims....he had a hell of a time trying to air them back up.....you almost need someone to hold it together while someone pumps them up till there is enough air to support itself.
> 
> In addition not all tires have been tested to see if they work with the hookless design. I can't see why you could not have a 3mm thick lip with a slight / modified hook.
> 
> I also hope Derby did his homework on the patents because Stan's and Mavic have a lot of patents on the rim designs...





DFYFZX said:


> Tires falling off is NOT an issue. I just swapped tires to take some pictures for you guys and the tires were so dang hard to get off I almost gave up! The "UST ridge" Derby designed in holds the bead like a bear trap! These are actually more secure than any Stan's rim I've ever used.


Rim wall bead hooks reduce rim wall strength. And the rim wall hooks are useless with tubeless ready inside shoulder bead seat centering design. After initial break-in, the bead doesn't stretch over the rim wall without moving the bead into the deep center channel. And as DFYDZX has noted the beads do not break loose easily from the Derby Rim bead seat locks to drop into the deep inner channel. These bead locks keep a tire secure next to the rim wall when the tire flats, and the tire protects the rim from rocks when rolling to a stop after flatting. With the bead locks it may be possible to ride a flat tire without rim damage if the loose tire wall doesn't interfere with the stays or fork.

DFYDZX, was that a WTB tubeless ready tire? I've found those beads are undersized quite a bit.

Patents? Mavic patented the UST design, and some tubeless spoke nipple adapters to have a sealed tubeless rim without using tape. Stan patented his shorter rim wall design, which does very little to improve stability by allowing the sidewall to spread slightly more than a taller rim wall, but does improve the ease to install tires onto the rim having a relatively shallow inner channel and oversized diameter bead seats. My design of the bead seats are not Mavic UST design compliant without having rim wall hooks, although UST beaded tires should have no problem fitting my rims very well and securely. And in contrast to Stan's short rim walls, mine are at the tall end of range I've measured in other rims, to ensure tires having loose beads do not blow off the tire. And my inner channel is at the deeper end of range I have measured, for easier tire install by hand or less effort with plastic levers over the rim wall. My bead seats are true to Bead Seat Diameter spec, not over size in diameter because the bead locks very effectively keep the tire bead tight and snug against the rim wall.



20.100 FR said:


> For you guys looking for hokeless asymetric carbon rims made in europe, check out
> Jantes DUKE www.jpracingbike1.com
> ha also got a new AM rim, 440g like derby, but 5mm narrower, so Derby still got an advantage here !


Yikes! Over US$700 per rim! Mine are $279 and better in every way. I need to raise my prices! Someday I will need to do so, even up to the MSRP of $379 which I feel is still affordable to hard working riders who want top performance and value for their hard earned money, riders like me. I'll need to raise prices to support more room for dealers to make a buck over their cost of my rims. My rims are much higher overhead cost than aluminum rims for a dealer. Maybe I can arrange financing for larger orders for my rims.

I offer price breaks for 8 or more rims, and 32 or more. See "Discounts" under "Frequent Questions" on my WIDE rim website page. And you can email me from my web site's About Us page in the "Contact derby" section.



David C said:


> Since the wider rim would allow for more volume thus less air pressure, the tire would actually corner better as it would remain more square to the ground as you lean the bike rather than only have the outer knobs touching.
> 
> For someone lightweight like me, who can run 15psi on a 30mm rim with 2.4" tires, the advantage of a wide rim, no matter tire width, can be experienced first hand and I can clearly see my front tire grabbing loose terrain instead of washing out.


Yes, exactly. One test rider who was 140 lbs was using 14 psi in his 29 x 35mm wide derby rims and raving about the insane traction and bump compliance. I recommend tire pressures in the rim specs listed on the Buy Now page, as 10% +/- 1% rider weight in tire psi as a starting point for rocky rooty conditions. Your conditions may vary. I'm 6' 1.5", and 210 lbs, 95Kg, and have been running 17 - 18psi front and 22 psi rear for rocky rooty local tight trail conditions, for faster conditions I'd probably add 1 or 2 psi.



deoreo said:


> derby-
> I see that you recommend 12mm Stan's yellow tape for tubeless application.
> Interesting, I've wondered why the 21mm and 25mm tape was used on narrow rims, where in some cases the tape was wider than the rim bed. Did this create a sort of "bead-lock" effect?
> 
> ...


The bead locks on the bead seats next to the deep inner channel in my rims do a better job holding air and the beads in place than tape rim wall to rim wall with no bead locks. The beads stay next to the rim wall, even when the tire goes flat while rolling to a stop so the tire protects the rim wall edge if flatting on rocks or pavement. Unless the tape is very wide as well as thin and flexible, such as a very wide electricians tape, it doesn't lay down smoothly over the bead locks and would cause trouble airing up tubeless, and the tape may peal away when removing a tire. So I recommend one round of Stan's narrowest 12mm tape in the center channel, possibly with a second layer of 18mm wide plastic tape or more layers in the middle channel if the beads are loose and won't air up tubeless easily. I've found one round of Stan's 12mm works fine and stays there when removing a tire. Any wider tape adds weight too.

On aluminum and other carbon fiber rims I had trouble with tape, or Stan's rubber rim strips, burping frequently. I ended up only trusting "ghetto" split inner-tubes trimmed to the edge of the rim walls after mounting the tire, to not burp. Ghetto rim strips effectively make tires nearly tubular once the sealant sets up and glues to the rim strip, so the ghetto strip lifts away from the rim under hard cornering with the tire preventing burping. Now on Derby Rims, riding the same trails and same tires tubeless, I have never burped air with my rims in more than 3 months, riding nearly every day doing some smaller jumps and drops here and there, the rim locks are very effective to keep the tire bead snug to the rim wall and inside the bead seat channels.

Check the 650b forum on the 26" Fox fork arch clearance in my Derby Rims Grand Opening post there. I think there's a picture of a 26" fork with Hans Damph 2.35 sized tires which still barely clear. The center of the tire tread does not grow taller, so it is like a belt around the wheel that even very high air pressure does not stretch to be taller, but the edge knobs do stand up more, about 1 to 2 mm taller and the casing does widen from the rim up to about half way up.

Thanks very much to everyone for your interest and support! Enjoy!!


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

derby said:


> Yes, exactly. One test rider who was 140 lbs was using 14 psi in his 29 x 35mm wide derby rims and raving about the insane traction and bump compliance. I recommend tire pressures in the rim specs listed on the Buy Now page, as 10% +/- 1% rider weight in tire psi as a starting point for rocky rooty conditions. Your conditions may vary. I'm 6' 1.5", and 210 lbs, 95Kg, and have been running 17 - 18psi front and 22 psi rear for rocky rooty local tight trail conditions, for faster conditions I'd probably add 1 or 2 psi.


Well I'm actually 120# with gear and riding custom studded 26x2.4" tires on snow trails on a 6" FS bike, I would go down to 12-13 psi and had amazing grip, but didn't tried to go lower as I didn't wanted to risk a pinch flat out in the cold, and that I was taking a few feet of air trough jumps and some good bumps on downhills. I could literally fly downhill on icy hard pack snow road at 15mph and control the bike without fear of washing out. Over very bumpy iced snow, I could keep on pedaling hard and not have my front wheel wash out at every icy bump due to the tire eating the hump right away and not needing the suspension to do that job.

I got 33mm wide by 30mm deep carbon rims to go on my XC bike, paired with custom studded 26x2.1" tires, so I'm excited about this coming winter.

Derby, would you be interested into an investor for Derby Rims ? I see great potential right here.


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## dirtdawg21892 (Jul 20, 2009)

derby said:


> I hope someday soon to have a 29'er x 40mm, and 26" x 40mm. Possibly a fat bike carbon fiber rim.


I would love it if you had 26" option. and I bet a carbon 100mm fattie rim would do well in the current fat craze. although i can't currently afford a set, I have a lot of respect for what you are doing. I wish more people would be like you and take initiative when they had a good idea. I honestly think the bike industry would be a better place because of it. I hope that someday I can be like you and start designing and selling my own products.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Are the 29" Derby rims 32 hole?

Also, what is the ERD so I can order spokes?

This rim is going on a King disc rear hub.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Miker J said:


> Are the 29" Derby rims 32 hole?
> 
> Also, what is the ERD so I can order spokes?


Per the site, 32 holes, 580mm E.R.D.

Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Per the site, 32 holes, 580mm E.R.D.
> 
> Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims


I looked all over the site, and in my usual fashion couldn't find the dang info. Still can't.

Thanks.

My iPad screen does not show the info !!!

It's pretty obvious on my desktop screen.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Miker J said:


> I looked all over the site, and in my usual fashion couldn't find the dang info. Still can't.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ...


I dont think its even that obvious on a desktop. That info is usually in a "Technical Specs" section... not under the "buy now" section


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Whew! another week of many new emails and ongoing correspondence, and filling orders.... and the little problem of having a stressful day job getting in the way too! Seriously, I am very thankful to have a fair paying regular job which is enough to pay the bills for another year maybe longer, so many are unemployed and in need of work.

I able to ship international now. Some go direct from the factory, when the cost is extremely high if I ship myself. I prefer to inspect and ship them myself, to check the QC of each rim. I did get one where it passed the factory QC person but the valve hole was the same size as the spoke holes. Mistakes will happen, I've got to expect problems. I drilled it out myself and kept the wheel to build a demo wheel set, if I can find the time. Except for that one small problem with the valve hole undersized drilling, the rims arrive looking very nicely finished.

Everything is becoming more routine now, but correspondence just takes me a long time, checking for grammar and spelling mistakes, and researching shipping costs internationally. And I've found I can strap up boxes of rim sets on my backpack so I can still commute by bicycle to work every day.

I added the force to fail test results in the rim specs on the Buy Now page of Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims They each require over 224Kg or near 500lbs to crack at a spoke or valve hole at 90' to the direction of force, this is before building into wheels which multiplies the force to fail. The spoke pull tests showed that the spokes break first at or above 326KgF over 700lbs pulling force without damaging the rim. These numbers were from the 29'er test results, the 650b x 40mm wide rim tests had significantly higher force to fail numbers than the 29'er x 35mm rim.

I'm getting ready to go to Interbike. I can't make it to the Dirt-Demo (bummed!) but I will be inside Wednesday and Thursday walking the isles with a rim or two in hand to show off, and I'll be researching hubs and wheel build service options to eventually offer complete wheelsets and apparel options for eventual logo marketing. Maybe I'll be able to meet Francis and Brian aka Pastajet, and possibly other media types. If you are going to Interbike and want to see my rims, email me ray at derbyrims.com or use the contact form on the About Us page on www.derbyrim.com and send my your cell number. I can try calling when I get there to meet and show you my rims.

Now to catch up with some replies...



dirtdawg21892 said:


> I would love it if you had 26" option. and I bet a carbon 100mm fattie rim would do well in the current fat craze. although i can't currently afford a set, I have a lot of respect for what you are doing. I wish more people would be like you and take initiative when they had a good idea. I honestly think the bike industry would be a better place because of it. I hope that someday I can be like you and start designing and selling my own products.


I hope to introduce more wide rims soon, the fat bike rim may be a very good option for carbon fiber. 100mm wide? Not sure if the sidewalls would still clear the stays and forks and the chain might have to be offset wider than it is already. The rim weight drop may be a lot. And without drilling big holes in the rims tubeless could become an option, further reducing weight.

Over the years I've heard others and had myself a lot of ideas to make better bike stuff and other things. The time and especially the money to risk to do these things are the big hurdles. Right now I have a good job with pretty rare long hours that seems like it will last a while, so I have some confidence to risk a chunk of my life savings to make light weight WIDE rims the reality I've long wanted. I'm still a long way to reach break even, but every day that goal looks more promising.



Miker J said:


> Are the 29" Derby rims 32 hole?
> 
> Also, what is the ERD so I can order spokes?
> 
> This rim is going on a King disc rear hub.





Dirty $anchez said:


> Per the site, 32 holes, 580mm E.R.D.
> 
> Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims





SandSpur said:


> I dont think its even that obvious on a desktop. That info is usually in a "Technical Specs" section... not under the "buy now" section


Yes, the web site needs improvement. I'll try to get a new Technical page done soon.

Thanks everyone. ENJOY! : )


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Thanks Derby.

The specs for the rims on your page would not show up on my ipad, but were there on my desktop screen. Glitchy computers.

Looks like my 29er rim is shipping. Thanks.

When you get time consider putting up spoke lengths needed for some of the more common hubs: Kings, Hadley, Hopes, etc.... While spoke calcs are suppose to be foolproof, don't underestimate the power of the fool! An area on your site to post tech stuff by yourself or by others building your rims would be nice (assuming its not there already).


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Site says internal nip compatible, but in his masthead side-on bike shot it looks like Ray is using standard (maybe even 16mm?) nips. 

Which is it?

And for which is the quoted 580 ERD applicable?

Thanks,

MC


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

mikesee said:


> Site says internal nip compatible, but in his masthead side-on bike shot it looks like Ray is using standard (maybe even 16mm?) nips.
> 
> Which is it?


If the rim is deep enough (looks to be) couldn't you use these or these?
In that case the answer would be "both," unless I'm missing something (I probably am).
I've never used them, but I've seen wheels designed for standard nipples built with them.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

derby said:


> Now to catch up with some replies...
> 
> I hope to introduce more wide rims soon, the fat bike rim may be a very good option for carbon fiber. 100mm wide? Not sure if the sidewalls would still clear the stays and forks and the chain might have to be offset wider than it is already. The rim weight drop may be a lot. And without drilling big holes in the rims tubeless could become an option, further reducing weight.
> 
> Thanks everyone. ENJOY! : )


A lot of us run 100mm rims, heck we are running tires that are 120mm. As far as holes for weight loss that doesn't affect tubeless either we just need a good bead lock. That being said I would take a poll in the Fat Bike forum to see the most desired width. I vote 100mm:thumbsup:


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

There's enough width difference I'd almost vote for two different widths. Maybe 65mm and 100mm? Not every fat biker rides snow and wants maximum float and rotational weight. With tires ranging from 3.8" to almost 5", one rim width doesn't seem ideal for everyone.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

DFYFZX said:


> There's enough width difference I'd almost vote for two different widths. Maybe 65mm and 100mm? Not every fat biker rides snow and wants maximum float and rotational weight. With tires ranging from 3.8" to almost 5", one rim width doesn't seem ideal for everyone.


I agree completely but if one was going to just start off building one rim first I would go wide. I would think a 100mm wide rim would have a lot more to gain from going carbon that a 65mm rim would but maybe I'm wrong all together


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

And Derby's MO is "wide" rims Sounds fair enough


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Sorry I can't visit here more often. Just too much direct email correspondence to cover every morning, evening, and middle of the night sometimes. While I must do a good job at my regular career job, developing software with a small group working inside a very large corporation.

I'm going to be at INTERBIKE this coming Wednesday and Thursday, walking the isles with a rim or two to show off, to meet some media types and others attending I know of, and to research wheel building services. I want to source quick engaging hubs 60 or more, possibly over 100 clicks per revolution available in Asia to offer wheelsets with my rims with high end quick engaging hubs to match. Like wide rims, I don't need to tell you how performance and safety is improved doing rocky climbs by very quick ratcheting hubs. If you are going to be there, please send me an email with your phone I can call or text when I get there about 9:30am Wednesday. It would be very nice to meet you in person. You can email me, ray at derbyrims dot com, or from my About Us page on my web site, Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims

Rims are shipping, but you guys are ordering faster than I can fill, so shipping orders has been delayed a week in both sizes, 650b and 29. I have new larger orders in and should be able to catch up and pass the rate of orders in a week or two, with about a week delay until I can ship until I catch up. And I plan to do larger orders every couple weeks to keep inventory in stock here to ship, and some at the factory to ship direct to customers where it is very expensive shipping from the US.

I prefer to inspect and flex test each one rather than ship direct from the factory, but only two have had small cosmetic flaws so far. I kept one I found, and missed another and heard about it and offered free return and shipping an exchange. I think the very high rate of quality finish work is partly because the factory engineers hand making these rims are pretty interested because they are so different than any other, and they may give more attention because of the unique design.

I flex test each rim by laying each rim across a long 2x4 wood board with a towel covering it to prevent any marring of the finish. And lay all my weight onto the rim, like doing a push-up from my knees on the rim straddling the board (try that with an aluminum rim!). And rotate the rim 90 degrees and weight it again, then flip it over and repeat on the other side. I'm listening for pops or crackling noises which would indicate internal lamination problems. Every one has been silent and I can't feel them flex.



mikesee said:


> Site says internal nip compatible, but in his masthead side-on bike shot it looks like Ray is using standard (maybe even 16mm?) nips.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> ...





meltingfeather said:


> If the rim is deep enough (looks to be) couldn't you use these or these?
> In that case the answer would be "both," unless I'm missing something (I probably am).
> I've never used them, but I've seen wheels designed for standard nipples built with them.


Thanks meltingfeather. I can also special order narrower spoke holes for a tighter spoke fit with internal nipples. And wider holes also if needed. I can only afford to stock, or try to keep in stock!, what the majority uses. I intend to stock alternative hole counts, 24, 28 count after I get ahead of the current rate of orders. For now they are special order and about a 1 to 2 week additional wait delay before I can ship to you.



DFYFZX said:


> There's enough width difference I'd almost vote for two different widths. Maybe 65mm and 100mm? Not every fat biker rides snow and wants maximum float and rotational weight. With tires ranging from 3.8" to almost 5", one rim width doesn't seem ideal for everyone.





bdundee said:


> I agree completely but if one was going to just start off building one rim first I would go wide. I would think a 100mm wide rim would have a lot more to gain from going carbon that a 65mm rim would but maybe I'm wrong all together


I need to research the fat bike market. It seems to be very hot now. But it is very expensive in investment to make a mold and pay for production, my direct cost per rim after paying for a bigger more expensive mold would be about double for a 100mm rim. Nearly 100 rims must sell to break even on that at at least $100 higher price to customers per rim, or raise prices a whole lot more than that. Would there be this many buyers in a year? Maybe I could consider investment partners for smaller niche sizes, to be sure I don't loose what I can't afford to risk.



DFYFZX said:


> And Derby's MO is "wide" rims  Sounds fair enough


Yes, this!


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

derby said:


> I need to research the fat bike market. It seems to be very hot now. But it is very expensive in investment to make a mold and pay for production, my direct cost per rim after paying for a bigger more expensive mold would be about double for a 100mm rim. Nearly 100 rims must sell to break even on that at at least $100 higher price to customers per rim, or raise prices a whole lot more than that. Would there be this many buyers in a year? Maybe I could consider investment partners for smaller niche sizes, to be sure I don't loose what I can't afford to risk.


Considering current fat bike rims encroach on the $200 mark and are hardly ever in stock, I don't see any issue with you dumping a whole lot of rims for around $300 a pop. Of course, I'd like to pay less than that but you wouldn't be out of line asking whatever you want since you'd be the only option. There's guys building custom titanium fatbikes passing the $10,000 mark and there's a few carbon frame options coming out in '14 so there would most definitely be a market for a "weight weenie" rim. I don't think stiffness would be the main purchasing point since the current rims aren't known for being flexy. If you could shave a 1/4+ pound off the existing rim weights weights and also make tubeless a cinch(saving over two pounds of tube) you'd be a fatbike legend


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

DFYFZX said:


> Considering current fat bike rims encroach on the $200 mark and are hardly ever in stock, I don't see any issue with you dumping a whole lot of rims for around $300 a pop. Of course, I'd like to pay less than that but you wouldn't be out of line asking whatever you want since you'd be the only option. There's guys building custom titanium fatbikes passing the $10,000 mark and there's a few carbon frame options coming out in '14 so there would most definitely be a market for a "weight weenie" rim. I don't think stiffness would be the main purchasing point since the current rims aren't known for being flexy. If you could shave a 1/4+ pound off the existing rim weights weights and also make tubeless a cinch(saving over two pounds of tube) you'd be a fatbike legend


The fat forum is abuzz with a couple new carbon rim options which are going for around $1500 per set. Neither are 100mm though.


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

Slow Danger said:


> The fat forum is abuzz with a couple new carbon rim options which are going for around $1500 per set. Neither are 100mm though.


First Look: Tubeless Carbon Fatbike Wheels? Borealis has em, with New Carbondale Rims!


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## sand0kan (Jun 6, 2010)

How much would shipping to THE netherlands would be?


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Just getting back into MTBing. Your rims looks very interesting...may order a pair soon. Will be in touch for some details regarding spokes and nipples.


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## Futon River Crossing (Jan 28, 2007)

Great looking rims- any reviews yet?

I'd like to see a 40 or 50mm 29er rim or even 60mm! A 60mm don't rim combined with a Surly Knard would be awesome!

I'd like, I mean definitely buy , a 65/70mm 26" rim for my fat front Jones, I bet you'd sell plenty of rims of this size, may be worth speaking to Jeff Jones. My current 72mm rim weighs 920g - shaving 300g off that would be awesome.

I wish you all the success- and may you bring us many more rims


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## Rone Turner (Mar 25, 2007)

rob1035 said:


> Arch EX weight, Blunt 35 ID.....intriguing....


Derby, do you know if anyone has put your 29er rims on a Ripley? Going to run Purgatory 2.3 or 2.4 if they will fit. Thanks


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## danridesbikes (Sep 10, 2009)

customs, will i be charged?


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

The Importer into the USA (derby) is responsible for those charges....not you....unless you live in another country, then yes, you will probably be charged.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I have placed an order for 29er rims. I think there is a short delay due to stock and vacation issues. Hopefully I will have new wheels in about 2 weeks? This is definitely my biggest upgrade expense (besides new bikes). I'm really hoping that I find it noticeable and worth the expense. I will post a review when I've put a few miles on them.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Got my rims on order can't wait! I've gone the Light-Bicycle rims route, and while nice, I like the profile and build of these SOOOO much better!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Laced my first set of these last night. Very impressive overall. Tension balanced out perfectly, and I mean as good as any other rim I've built with, ever.

Aired them up tubeless with 3.0 Knards and did one short ride. Will ride 'em a bunch more before commenting further.

Just noticed that Ray has put up an option for a 29" "heavy duty" rim on his e-commerce site. No mention that I could find of what's different. Anyone know?


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## danridesbikes (Sep 10, 2009)

Any pics with the knards got a krampus en-route


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## flyinmike (Dec 17, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Laced my first set of these last night. Very impressive overall. Tension balanced out perfectly, and I mean as good as any other rim I've built with, ever.
> 
> Aired them up tubeless with 3.0 Knards and did one short ride. Will ride 'em a bunch more before commenting further.
> 
> Just noticed that Ray has put up an option for a 29" "heavy duty" rim on his e-commerce site. No mention that I could find of what's different. Anyone know?


explanation in this 650B post --------> http://forums.mtbr.com/650b-27-5/65...ims-grand-opening-871009-12.html#post10697570


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Looked at these from the bikerumor.com interbike coverage, but was going to go with the L-B rims that I've had for 650b bikes until I read this thread and realized that they were from "Derby" that post great stuff here all the time! Just ordered a set to build for my first 29er with DT 350 hubs. Won't be back in the states until late October, so the delay won't bother me any! 

Great job and congrats on your new venture! Always love to purchase form the little guys, especially when they have good product and great customer service!

Now I'm less worried about destroying LB 650 rims, as I know of a good substitute and putting money in an American's pocket!


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

even though these aren't 29er, here's some Derby pr0n:
white Sapim Lasers with black 14mm alloy Polyax
3x/1x(heads out) front
2x rear


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

meltingfeather said:


> even though these aren't 29er, here's some Derby pr0n:
> white Sapim Lasers with black 14mm alloy Polyax
> 3x/1x(heads out) front
> 2x rear


Stunning build! So were you just trying to go with something a little different on the front?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

bholwell said:


> Stunning build!


Thanks!


bholwell said:


> So were you just trying to go with something a little different on the front?


I did the same build "just for fun" on my own front wheel a couple of years ago and documented the net effect on tension balance here on mtbr (link). A customer liked the idea and I'm confident enough in the wheel's durability at this point, so I replicated it for him.


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

I have a pair of heavy duty 29er Derby rims on order: the heavy duty comes from an extra layup of carbon. The extra carbon layer is supposed to ad about 30g per rim. 36h also, all of my hubs are 36h. I'm gong to build them with Sapim X-ray spokes laced to a Hope Evo front hub and a NOS DT 440 FR rear.

I have been looking forward to trying the tubeless thing for a long time.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

meltingfeather said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I did the same build "just for fun" on my own front wheel a couple of years ago and documented the net effect on tension balance here on mtbr (link). A customer liked the idea and I'm confident enough in the wheel's durability at this point, so I replicated it for him.


Wish that the 'powers that be' (aka fork and hub manufacturers) were ~1% as interested in tension balance as you and I are. Someday...


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Just back from ride #2 on these. Very pleased with every aspect, from tension balance to (short!) spoke lengths to tubeless interface.



Ran the 120tpi Knards tubeless at ~19psi tonight. Felt a bit harsh but I was racing daylight so I didn't stop to fiddle. Betting something closer to ~15 front/16 rear will be the ticket.



Looking forward to getting a set with the HD layup for my smashing bike.:thumbsup:


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

Can't really make it out in your pictures. 12mm nipples? Or 16 as Derby talks about?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chunkylover53 said:


> Can't really make it out in your pictures. 12mm nipples? Or 16 as Derby talks about?


12mm DT Prolocks w/DT SuperComps. 3x on all, largely because it's my backcountry wayfaroutthere bike. Liking what Dennis did with his--might get crazy and go 3x/2x on my next set.

Cheers,

MC


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## fixgeardan (Aug 20, 2004)

Dude is that snow? Cool bike!


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

Very nice.
I hope now that Derby has put out a DH version, that he will do a lighter version.
I would love something around 400-410g

Like JPracing1 latest 29-enduro rims (410g front, 440g rear)


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Wondering who is ordering the regular version vs. Heavy Duty. I'd like to pull the trigger on this but not sure if I need the HD's or not. I'm about 210lb loaded. They'll be going on a yeti sb95c. Mostly ride xc trails with potential for some 3-4' drops and moderate rockiness. Right now I have Flow EX's and they are holding up great. Opinions?


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Streetdoctor said:


> Wondering who is ordering the regular version vs. Heavy Duty. I'd like to pull the trigger on this but not sure if I need the HD's or not. I'm about 210lb loaded. They'll be going on a yeti sb95c. Mostly ride xc trails with potential for some 3-4' drops and moderate rockiness. Right now I have Flow EX's and they are holding up great. Opinions?


If you go check out the link provided by flyinmike at the top of the page, you will see that the HD version is really just the same rim as the regular with a couple added layers of carbon fiber that should add somewhere between 25-50 grams to the original. If I'm reading right, Derby says one of his testers had a rim failure, so he went to the manufacturer to address the situation, and the result was the new "HD" rim. Now, I may be reading the link wrong, but sounds like this new "HD" rim may end up becoming the regular rim. Maybe Derby will come on here to clarify when he gets time. Point being, I would go with the "HD" version no matter how much I weighed or how I rode because the weight difference is pretty minimal.


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't have a 650B bike, and my 29er is a Chromag hardtail, which is my pedally bike. Hoping he makes some HD DH rims for a 26er as I have 2 26er bikes now


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I have Arch 29er rims now. These will probably not be any lighter, but they will be stiffer and stronger.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Flyer said:


> I have Arch 29er rims now. These will probably not be any lighter, but they will be stiffer and stronger.


And quite a bit wider!


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

Flyer said:


> I have Arch 29er rims now. These will probably not be any lighter, but they will be stiffer and stronger.


Trying to compare an arch rim in any way to these shouldn't be done.


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

True. The Arch is 21mm internal width. The 8mm wider internal width that the Derby rims sports is not a small difference. It is massively more fun out on the trail.

Derby is not kidding about wide rims being more fun. I have been a wide 29er rim addict since I first got my KH Uni rimmed wheels 6 or 7 years ago. I consider anything less than 26mm internal too skinny for proper off road use. Even then, I prefer my Gordo & KH rimmed wheels (29 & 30mm internal) over my MTX 33 wheels that are 26mm internal. While the MTX is tough and DH worthy they are just not as fun as the wider hoops.

Really happy that these Derby rims are now available, not just that they are such a big tech jump forward, but partly because the Gordo & KH rims that I have are NLA.


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## agu (Jun 22, 2007)

Found info


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

meltingfeather said:


>


Interesting. The Light Bikes rims have the same serial number label. Just sayin.


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

I had the same thought. Also just sayin'.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

92gli said:


> Interesting. The Light Bikes rims have the same serial number label. Just sayin.


That perspective was not an accident.
Just sayin'


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Seemed kind of obvious from the start. Just sayin.


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## eurospek (Sep 15, 2007)

So what are you guys sayin' then?


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

eurospek said:


> So what are you guys sayin' then?


Totally unfounded theory:

Derby is having the light-bicycle.com folks make the rims for him, exclusively, I would assume, and he handles the sales. I've been hoping for someone to do this for a long time. I personally ride light-bicycle wide 29er rims, and they are a great product and a truly unbelievable price. The down side was somewhat uncertain QC and difficulty handling warranty issues. I won't even knock them there, because I've had no issues, but having someone stateside that stands behind the product opens doors for people not interested in buying factory direct. The only problem, assuming any of this is true, is that many us of, especially on these forums, would be perfectly happy to buy them straight from the factory at wholesale and deal with the consequences.

That being said I think there's plenty of room to price these rims at a place where everyone wins, and I think that's what derby is doing. We should all be happy about the fact that carbon is quickly becoming a commodity building material.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

At least a reputable(in my opinion) company over there is making them! You pay a little more, for BETTER design rims, but you also pay less on the shipping. 

I'm selling my literally just built Light-Bicycle rims, and paying a bit more, to build up some Derby's. I wanted wider rims, and stronger rim-lips, so it was a no brainer for me.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

hillharman said:


> Derby is having the light-bicycle.com folks make the rims for him, exclusively, I would assume, and he handles the sales.


I don't think light-bicycle actually makes rims but is a trading company/middle man.


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

meltingfeather said:


> I don't think light-bicycle actually makes rims but is a trading company/middle man.


light bicycle-carbon frame,carbon rim,carbon wheel,carbon wheelset,carbon mountain bike,carbon road bike Light-Bicycle

Their website claims they specialize in "the manufacture, design and sale of carbon fiber bicycle products and other carbon fiber parts." And that they have "professional engineers, excellent customer service teams and good molding & painting production lines."

Do you have other information? Are they selling someone else's rims?


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## polarbike (Nov 18, 2009)

I´ve been running my Intense Tracer 29 on tubed Salsa Gordos laced with DT-swiss Champs. Just ordered my Derbys and Sapim CX-RAY spokes, hoping to shave about 800g going tubeless. Can anybody compare the Gordo with the Derby rim?


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

polarbike said:


> I´ve been running my Intense Tracer 29 on tubed Salsa Gordos laced with DT-swiss Champs. Just ordered my Derbys and Sapim CX-RAY spokes, hoping to shave about 800g going tubeless. Can anybody compare the Gordo with the Derby rim?


I have been riding the Gordos for several years. I have 5-6 wheels built with them and an un-built spare in reserve, since they have gone out of production. So I guess that you can say that I like them.

Remember that Gordos were not approved by Salsa for tubeless use. The Derby rims are.

And the two other things that I know for sure without yet having my Derby rims in hand are:

The HD Derby rims will be about 200g lighter (each) than the Gordos.

The Derby rims will be stiffer & stronger than the Gordos. Will they be tougher? Only time will tell.

I really do wish that Derby had made his rims with an offset spoke bed. That would have made for an even stronger wheel build.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think Ritchey has a patent on offset spokes and you have to pay a royalty to use it. That is one reason that Shimano quit making Sweet 16 road wheels, they got tired of paying him so much money. In about 20 years it will be out of patent and we can all use it.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

By the way, anyone that collects old bike stuff: I think there is probably prior art on offset spoke holes so if someone has something let's see it. If the patent is invalidated, we can all get offset wheels from all the manufacturers right away.


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> By the way, anyone that collects old bike stuff: I think there is probably prior art on offset spoke holes so if someone has something let's see it. If the patent is invalidated, we can all get offset wheels from all the manufacturers right away.


My '04 fisher Sugar 293 had Bonty rims with OSB. So a patent on OSB would have to be much closer to running out or be invalidated by those Bonty rims.

I'd be surprised if meltingfeather did not know all about this subject.

Update: It is Trek that has the patent:

Patent EP1310383A2 - Paired spoke bicycle wheel with optimized rim extrusion and spoke spacing ... - Google Patents


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

29erchico said:


> I'd be surprised if meltingfeather did not know all about this subject.
> 
> Update: It is Trek that has the patent:
> 
> Patent EP1310383A2 - Paired spoke bicycle wheel with optimized rim extrusion and spoke spacing ... - Google Patents


I believe that is for paired spokes.
I don't think there is any viable barrier to manufacturing asym rims based on patent law. Plenty of people do it (_e.g._ Shimano, Bonty, Velocity, IRD, Mavic, _etc._).
Krampera was able to patent the idea in 1993 with a priority date of 1990. link
I'm not sure on the details of the history of the Ritchey thing, if there ever was one.
There is a lot of misinformation floated around. For example, the Sweet 16 wheels did not even use an asymmetrical rim.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The Sweet 16 wheels were paired and also crossed the centerline which increased the bracing angle. The patent I was talking about was the one there holes are on the opposite side of the rim from the hub. In other words the spokes crossed with respect to the centerline of the wheel. I think Richey owns that one. I think VIA or someone else owns the patent for the offfset rim which the Sweet 16 wheels did not have. And apparently Treck owns the paired spoke patent. 

Patent protection is for 34 years


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## KeviChe (Jan 5, 2012)

Ive wanted this option for a while, good job on bringing these to market


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> The Sweet 16 wheels were paired and also crossed the centerline which increased the bracing angle. The patent I was talking about was the one there holes are on the opposite side of the rim from the hub. In other words the spokes crossed with respect to the centerline of the wheel. I think Richey owns that one. I think VIA or someone else owns the patent for the offfset rim which the Sweet 16 wheels did not have. And apparently Treck owns the paired spoke patent.


Oh. I thought we were talking about offset/asym rims.


yourdaguy said:


> Patent protection is for 34 years


Please provide a citation for this.
(You won't find it... 34 years is a wild exaggeration)


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## polarbike (Nov 18, 2009)

Can't wait to have them rims laced up and rip mybackyard! So far A+ for excellent communication and service! Well done Ray!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Meltingfeathe
Term of patent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are right it is 20 years in the US. I think I was thinking of copywrite which is something like 16 plus 16 more which would be 32 so I suck at math.
So I think the patent was issued prior to 2000 so sometime in the next several years it should be coming off patent.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Meltingfeathe
> Term of patent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You are right it is 20 years in the US. I think I was thinking of copywrite which is something like 16 plus 16 more which would be 32 so I suck at math.
> So I think the patent was issued prior to 2000 so sometime in the next several years it should be coming off patent.


20 years in Europe as well according to your link.
Also, I'm not sure which patent you're talking about now. I thought the discussion was asym rims, which patent (Krampera) is expired already.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

my rims will be here thursday!


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Where are all the pics and ride reports?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Streetdoctor said:


> my rims will be here thursday!


When did ya' order/pay?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

No the patent I am talking about is if the spokes cross and have alternate holes left and right of each other with respect to the centerline of the rim. The Sweet 16 rims not only had paired spokes, but the spokes actually crossed and pulled against each other across the rim.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> No the patent I am talking about is if the spokes cross and have alternate holes left and right of each other with respect to the centerline of the rim.


Who is talking about that (besides you)?
You brought up the Ritchey thing in another thread. Which Ritchey wheel/rim had opposing offsets like the Sweet 16?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Okay, the spoke patent banter is getting old here.......


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

thuren said:


> Okay, the spoke patent banter is getting old here.......


Yep, let's grow up and move along. Nuff said about the stupid rim drillings that have nothing to do with Derby rims.

Myself, I've built up my Derby 29ers on Hope hubs with DT brass Prolock nipples and DT Comp spokes. Super easy to build up, very even tension right out of the gate and look bomber!

I taped them up with Stans 21mm tape (originally tried the narrow 12mm tape but didn't like it), slapped my stock Spec Purg and Butcher Control and installed them on my Enduro 29

I did my first real ride on them on the Shore this past weekend and was very impressed. I was not a fan of these tires on the stock wheels but the Derbys really opened them up and made them into decent tires.

Even more impressive is that I was able to find my lines with much more accuracy than usual due to the stiffness of the rim. I've ridden the trails a whole bunch of times and have never been able to thread the needle with such precision before! Looking forward to putting more time on these beauties!
I'm even considering another set for my TallboyC for the rowdier days.

Derby Wide 29er wheel build has started! - North Shore Mountain Biking Forums


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## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Bogey, how have you found the Derby wheels roll compared to the previous set of wheels? Assuming you ran the same tire combo on both sets


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

PUNKY said:


> Bogey, how have you found the Derby wheels roll compared to the previous set of wheels? Assuming you ran the same tire combo on both sets


Tough one to answer due to a few reasons. I've ridden the same trails on the stock wheels and the Derbys but the trail conditions were very different (dry and dusty vs damp and slippery). Also, the Derbys are lighter and stiffer so they spin up easier feel poppier.

Riding up Fromme I certainly felt that the lighter weight helped me move along better and I never noticed any extra drag from the flatter tire profile but I any difference would be tough to notice on the gravel.

I sure noticed a difference riding down though. Running 2 psi lower than usual (26 psi front, 30 psi rear) I noticed the additional traction from the lower pressure as well as the added side support of the wider rim. Only once did I get the feeling of the tire collapsing sideways under hard cornering whereas it was a common feeling with the stock wheels.


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## pwu_1 (Nov 19, 2007)

bog said:


> ...
> I taped them up with Stans 21mm tape (originally tried the narrow 12mm tape but didn't like it), slapped my stock Spec Purg and Butcher Control and installed them on my Enduro 29...


Why did you not like about the 12mm tape? And does the 21mm tape lay down flat where the ridge for the bead channel is?


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

The diameter of the holes in the wall of the rim are only a bit smaller than the width of the tape so you have to be very precise with the tape. On top of this, there are always some areas around some of the holes where the carbon has torn a bit during drilling (very normal) so this makes the 12mm tape too narrow. Even when I double taped with an offset to each side I had trouble with the rear holding air.

One wrap of the 21mm tape solved the leaking immediately. Stan's tape has just enough stretch and is supposed to be pulled tight during install so I had no trouble getting the tape to sit smoothly into the center channel and over the bead humps.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

bog said:


> Nuff said about the stupid rim drillings that have nothing to do with Derby rims.


I think the Derby rims and all similarly sourced carbon rims could benefit from at least directional drilling. The spoke holes are small, the rim walls thick, and the holes drilled radially, so you end up with a significant bend at the spoke/nipple interface... something a wheel builder doesn't like to see. This effect is slightly more pronounced on the Derbys because of the deep section, which makes for smaller ERD (shorter spokes) than other rims of the same size.
I'd hate to take a round file to a brand new expensive carbon rim, but if they had been mine I probably would have.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Just ordered some DT Swiss 350 hubs. My rims should be here tomorrow. Will hopefully have these laced up in a couple of weeks.


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

Mike I was curious if you have looked or worked with the nox rims as I see they have offset spoke holes and if you thought that was a big advantage.thanks


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

meltingfeather said:


> I think the Derby rims and all similarly sourced carbon rims could benefit from at least directional drilling. The spoke holes are small, the rim walls thick, and the holes drilled radially, so you end up with a significant bend at the spoke/nipple interface... something a wheel builder doesn't like to see. This effect is slightly more pronounced on the Derbys because of the deep section, which makes for smaller ERD (shorter spokes) than other rims of the same size.
> I'd hate to take a round file to a brand new expensive carbon rim, but if they had been mine I probably would have.


100% agree on this one. There definitely is a bit of a bend at the spoke/nipple interface that I'll be keeping an eye on. Directional drilling would add some cost but bring the rim design up a notch.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The lack of directional drilling is the main shortcoming of the Derby and LB rims and would be a major improvement. So, apparently, the Derby rims have an even thicker spoke bed than the LB rims from what was said previously. I wonder if Derby could import blank rims and find someone in the US to do custom drilling. I know this would cost more, but the benefits would be great. I would think that angled drilling would be worth $30 to $50 per rim to me if Derby could get it done for less he would make a profit on that too. IF he bought blank rims from the Chinese that should lower his cost and then find a place in the US to do them and have the Chinese ship direct to that vendor and have the vendor ship the rims to the customer. Could even have 28 hole, 36 hole, etc.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

For what it's worth, I am very sure my Roval Carbon SL's, are not directionally drilled either. 

Are any current carbon rims directionally drilled?


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

thuren said:


> Are any current carbon rims directionally drilled?


The last ENVE rims I had were not directionally [molded].


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## mdcrisp (Mar 22, 2010)

Derby, any chance of you coming out with some 45mm or wider 29er rims anytime this year? Drinking the 29+ coolaid like everyone else and I am building up a 29+ frame with Knards and would love to see a lighter weight and tubeless alternative to Surley clownshoe rims


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## murphy87 (Oct 19, 2010)

Hey just curious what you think. I have a set of these hoops already on my trance x 29er and love them. Got excited on your build with the knards on those hoops. 

Thinking about trying to lace up a set of these for a borealis yampa for summer time use with knards of course. Do you think the angle that the spoke meets the rim at from a 190 hub would be to great? Any issues of possibly breaking spokes at the threaded end cause of the angle they will go into the rim at? Just curious what someone with experience building lots of wheels would think. Talked to some other folks but nobody is real sure.

Thanks


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## polarbike (Nov 18, 2009)

Can you run Knards on the 35mm Derbys?
Edit: From Surly: designed for 50mm wide rims. Requires minimum of 35mm wide rim to safely engage bead hook.


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## murphy87 (Oct 19, 2010)

Check MikeC's post a little closer and look at the tires he has fitted up to the derby rims. Love that setup Mike I was curious to see who be the first to use these hoops for a wild project like that. Mike whats your opinion on how the tire performs on the derby as opposed to a rabbit hole? Thanks


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Though not 29er or technically even mtb, I think these wheels ended up on a sick machine:


















yes those are oil derricks and yes they are geographically appropriate, since this beast resides in Houston, Texas, USA :thumbsup:


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

meltingfeather said:


> Though not 29er or technically even mtb, I think these wheels ended up on a sick machine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:yesnod::thumbsup:


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Derby san,

How about an update on shipping! I ordered mine over 2 weeks ago and emailed you over a week ago, no rims and no response...

Thanks


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

meltingfeather said:


> Though not 29er or technically even mtb, I think these wheels ended up on a sick machine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. Kinda what I had in mind myself.


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

meltingfeather said:


> Though not 29er or technically even mtb, I think these wheels ended up on a sick machine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like butter!


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Got my tracking number I am excited! 

Derby 35's
240s rear hub
Nukeproof Generator front hub
DT Super comp spokes
Aluminum nips

Should be a taped up 1750g burly wheelset. The Nukeproof front hub is 160g and has the same flange size as the 240s so all my spoke sizes are the same.

I'll put up pictures asap.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Mine are being laced up to a pair of dt swiss 350s. First ride and photos wednesday


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Streetdoctor said:


> Mine are being laced up to a pair of dt swiss 350s. First ride and photos wednesday


You're going to like them! I have mine laced to 350s(150mm rear) with CX Rays Can't imagine a better wheelset...


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

thuren said:


> Got my tracking number I am excited!
> 
> Derby 35's
> 240s rear hub
> ...


Did you purchase the normal or HD rims? If you bought the normal rims, when did you pay for them?

Thanks!


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

MTB Pilot said:


> Did you purchase the normal or HD rims? If you bought the normal rims, when did you pay for them?
> 
> Thanks!


I just told him to "send me whatever", and I think I ordered exactly a month ago.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Mine rims were just shipped. My wheels should be build early next week I guess. I ordered the standard Darby rims. Will be using Hope hubs with Sapim Race spokes. Going to use Maxxis Ardent 2.4 in the front and Ardent 2.25 in the rear. Going to try and set them up tubeless. Looking forward to trying them out. Hope they are worth the wait, the weight, and the money I've had to spend on them.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

*Wheels and Tires Derby x-post*

I built this Derby wide 29er wheel set recently for a customer (click on link to see thread): http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/derby-wide-gravity-wheel-set-881558.html


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

*First test ride tomorrow *

Built by Chad at the Red Barn


Untitled by jamie_mtb, on Flickr


Untitled by jamie_mtb, on Flickr


Untitled by jamie_mtb, on Flickr

Weight 780g compared to the Hope Pro2 evo\Flow ex 970g


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Here we go. Going for a first ride in a couple hours. Shop said they laced up very easy. Spokes are Sapim Force, with DT Swiss 350 hubs These are the HD rims, not very light (2000g w/o cassette or rotors) but insanely stiff. Setup tubeless very easy also.


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## Serenity Now (Jun 6, 2006)

Just a heads-up. I went to order a set last night and the price has gone up to $300/rim. I get it and all, but that was just too much for me, so I guess I will just be patient and hope that Light-Bicycles comes out with a wider rim soon. They already seem to have hookless in the pipeline......

No hard feelings at all, as Ray has to be profitable. My bad for not ordering sooner.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

wheels ride as expected, super stiff!!!!


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Have hook beads been a problem? Seems to be a popular theme now when discussing rims. When deflated, does the tire bead fall away form the rim wall on a hookless design?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Flyer said:


> Have hook beads been a problem? Seems to be a popular theme now when discussing rims. When deflated, does the tire bead fall away form the rim wall on a hookless design?


Hook-less carbon rims have more "meat", where needed, not having the hook. Stronger and more resistant to rock strikes.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I understand the theory, but did not realize this was a problem.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Flyer said:


> I understand the theory, but did not realize this was a problem.


I have split 3 of the(normal hook style) Light-Bicycle rims, right through the thin lip. Lot's of psi, and strong tires, just cracked em. I have hook-less Rovals that took a BEATING in my last Super-D race, on some hits I was sure, "would leave a mark", but nothing.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Yeah, probably even more important with light rims and carbon rims. Good info!


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Mine still dirty after first ride. Rims are awesome. 

DT Super Comps, aluminum nips, 240s rear hub, Nukeproof front hub, rim strips, valves = 1760g STIFF wheelset.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

thuren said:


> Mine still dirty after first ride. Rims are awesome.
> 
> DT Super Comps, aluminum nips, 240s rear hub, Nukeproof front hub, rim strips, valves = 1760g STIFF wheelset.


Super-cool lookin rig!


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Taping rim....

The recommended Stans thin width tape is a bit narrow. Had some 24mm and it was too wide. 

Any one have better luck with Stans 21mm tape?

Other easy to use options? In the past I've just cut-to-width packing tape. Problem with that is that it is a bit too adherent when you want to get it off.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Miker J said:


> Taping rim....
> 
> The recommended Stans thin width tape is a bit narrow. Had some 24mm and it was too wide.
> 
> ...


I use full width Gorilla tape. I even run it about half way up the sidewall. Works great.


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## eurospek (Sep 15, 2007)

Serenity Now said:


> Just a heads-up. I went to order a set last night and the price has gone up to $300/rim. I get it and all, but that was just too much for me, so I guess I will just be patient and hope that Light-Bicycles comes out with a wider rim soon. They already seem to have hookless in the pipeline......
> 
> No hard feelings at all, as Ray has to be profitable. My bad for not ordering sooner.


If you're spending $400+ on rims alone, what's another $40 or so?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

eurospek said:


> If you're spending $400+ on rims alone, what's another $40 or so?


about 10%


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Miker J said:


> Taping rim....
> 
> The recommended Stans thin width tape is a bit narrow. Had some 24mm and it was too wide.
> 
> Any one have better luck with Stans 21mm tape?


I also found the 12mm tape too narrow so I stepped it up to the 21mm tape. Keep it taught when taping and it work perfectly. THIS is what Derby should be recommending for his 29 x 35 rims.


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## nolan17 (Jun 9, 2009)

Streetdoctor and thuren: those are both beautiful bikes!!!

I ordered 4 rims for my new rides that I'm building up this winter so the 3 week wait for the HD rims is ok with me. 

-Nolan


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

eurospek said:


> If you're spending $400+ on rims alone, what's another $40 or so?


That is not what is troubling.....the wider format is a specialized and low volume format. It will never sell as much as the 27-33mm widths. Derby has put in a lot of time, research, work and money to introduce these rims and before he can have a chance to recoup his costs and make some money, he gets sold out by fellow mountain bikers. Funny thing is that the Chinese companies employees don't ride and they don't realize this is a niche market....so they are all fighting for a very small market.....ever wander why America has gone to the shits...Walmart, target, replaceable cheap crap.


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

Maybe Serenity can't handle $600+ for rims? Some people are on a budget. I do see your point. I am in a blessed position and can afford pretty much anything I want for my bike so $600 for Derby's or $400 for LB rims makes no difference to me, but for some that might be a week's paycheck. I like Derby's well thought out design and the extra strength afforded by the hookless bead so it was a no brainier for me.

Derby, where's the carbon fatbike rims? Come on already


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

DFYFZX said:


> Maybe Serenity can't handle $600+ for rims? Some people are on a budget. I do see your point. I am in a blessed position and can afford pretty much anything I want for my bike so $600 for Derby's or $400 for LB rims makes no difference to me, but for some that might be a week's paycheck. I like Derby's well thought out design and the extra strength afforded by the hookless bead so it was a no brainier for me.
> 
> Derby, where's the carbon fatbike rims? Come on already


I definitely see your point and understand. The problem I am having is most don't look at the long term situation ( big surprise) and see what the cost will be if they have a problem and try to warranty a broken rim from China. In addition...this wide rim market is not very big and someone had the balls to go out there and put their money where their mouth is. They are also the ultimate mtn biker in my mind...All these Chinese companies do is copy people. I hope Derby gets the lions share and the Chinese companies lose because they do not understand just how small this wide rim market is....


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## HillDancer (Dec 10, 2012)

Flyer said:


> ...When deflated, does the tire bead fall away form the rim wall on a hookless design?


The Derby rim has a bead lock, in the form of a radial hump or round ridge, behind the tire bead when mounted. It requires quite a bit of lateral force to push my tire away from the Derby (27.5) bead wall and over this hump/ridge when the tire is deflated, and it's not even a TR tire.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Sad thing is, the same factory producing these rims for Derby will most likely in a short time start producing them under their own brand name and screw him over - no sort of ethics over there, absolutely sad. Hope maybe he's someohw got them to sign something stating they wouldn't for at least a year.


YaMon said:


> I definitely see your point and understand. The problem I am having is most don't look at the long term situation ( big surprise) and see what the cost will be if they have a problem and try to warranty a broken rim from China. In addition...this wide rim market is not very big and someone had the balls to go out there and put their money where their mouth is. They are also the ultimate mtn biker in my mind...All these Chinese companies do is copy people. I hope Derby gets the lions share and the Chinese companies lose because they do not understand just how small this wide rim market is....


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

LyNx said:


> Sad thing is, the same factory producing these rims for Derby will most likely in a short time start producing them under their own brand name and screw him over - no sort of ethics over there, absolutely sad. Hope maybe he's someohw got them to sign something stating they wouldn't for at least a year.


The other part that really gets me is that Derby has to pay duties and fees because he cannot get away from it due to the size of his orders. These Chinese companies are shipping by EMS and undervaluing the amounts so it does not attract any attention. They put sample or replacement on the invoices and mark it at $50 vs. the real value of $400 ( duties are calculated with the shipping value). The customers are not asking them to do this and are liable for the penalties if they get caught. If they were to mark the correct amount, it would increase by around $25 for the duty and the documentation fee.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Recommend running a wide tire with these guys if you're riding in rocky terrain. Put some love on my rear this last weekend at Fruita running a 2.25 Ardent. Going to try out a Ikon 2.35 in the rear now. One thing is the rims are so tall it makes the wheel look like a 26'er


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> The lack of directional drilling is the main shortcoming of the Derby and LB rims and would be a major improvement. So, apparently, the Derby rims have an even thicker spoke bed than the LB rims from what was said previously. I wonder if Derby could import blank rims and find someone in the US to do custom drilling. I know this would cost more, but the benefits would be great. I would think that angled drilling would be worth $30 to $50 per rim to me if Derby could get it done for less he would make a profit on that too. IF he bought blank rims from the Chinese that should lower his cost and then find a place in the US to do them and have the Chinese ship direct to that vendor and have the vendor ship the rims to the customer. Could even have 28 hole, 36 hole, etc.


Super interesting points.


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Anyone received a FedEx tracking # since Ray sent the email last week about future deliveries? 4 weeks and notta here. I guess this shouldn't be a surprise with a new 1 person start-up, but a little disappointed already. I will be home in 1 week for a two week period to build and ride a new 29er and was counting on having these rims when I got home or earlier.


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## Vegard (Jul 16, 2009)

MTB Pilot said:


> Anyone received a FedEx tracking # since Ray sent the email last week about future deliveries? 4 weeks and notta here. I guess this shouldn't be a surprise with a new 1 person start-up, but a little disappointed already. I will be home in 1 week for a two week period to build and ride a new 29er and was counting on having these rims when I got home or earlier.


I was quoted 3 weeks from oct.25th.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Ordered my derby rims, have some wheelbuilding questions (I've only built 1 wheelset so far - with LB rims):

If using 14mm long nipples, do I reduce the spoke length by 2mm?

Calculated spoke lengths range from 278mm to 280mm. Can I just use 278mm all around?

What spokes do you recommend? I see several statements like 'these are STIFF wheels' when using DT supercomps - which I associate with more XC builds - is there any reason for non-jumping trail rider to go with spokes thicker than supercomps? I'd also like bladed (maybe DT aerolight) since I was concerned with spoke windup on my first build. 

Are there any tricks to deal with the non-offset spoke holes - to prevent bending at the thread?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Motivated said:


> If using 14mm long nipples, do I reduce the spoke length by 2mm?


It depends on what nipples you use. If you use DT Swiss reduce spoke length by 1mm. If you use Sapim make no correction.


Motivated said:


> Calculated spoke lengths range from 278mm to 280mm. Can I just use 278mm all around?


In general, no, but it depends on what the *actual* (precise) spoke lengths are.



Motivated said:


> What spokes do you recommend? I see several statements like 'these are STIFF wheels' when using DT supercomps - which I associate with more XC builds - is there any reason for non-jumping trail rider to go with spokes thicker than supercomps? I'd also like bladed (maybe DT aerolight) since I was concerned with spoke windup on my first build.


Bladed spokes do help with ability to detect, prevent, and correct wind-up, but you will pay a hefty premium for that.


Motivated said:


> Are there any tricks to deal with the non-offset spoke holes - to prevent bending at the thread?


Other than taking a file to the holes to realign them some, no, there is no trick that will correct the issue.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Spoke length calculation for derby rims with Tune King front hub and AmClassic 225 rear hub:









With 14mm nipples (calculated), does that make it possible to use 278mm length all around? Or, with 12mm nipples (red!), would 279mm length also work all around? Does the longer nipple mean more thread engagement, therefore accommodate wider range of spoke length - in this case 2mm?

Edit - It seems obvious to use different nipple length to accommodate different spoke length, so that's what I'll do.

I'm still not sure what spokes to get. Supercomps are my default, but would rather go bladed, unfortunately, DT doesn't really have an equivalent bladed spoke.

Edit - bladed spokes are at least $3each. That's too much for me. What's a good windup prevention tool or technique for round spoke?


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

I just finished building these wheels today and I have to say they came out quite nicely. The 5 week wait with 9 days of shipping time weren't very impressive, but I understand the issue with the manufacturer and still have a lot of respect for Derby taking on this venture. My rims came in at 452 and 456 grams and the build weights with DT Swiss 350 15 and 142mm hubs, DT Comp 2.0/1.8/2.0 spoke and Stan's 21mm tape and valves are: Front 860 gr/ Rear 1050=> Total 1910. This is my first 29er and the wheels that came on it are DT Swiss XR1501 Spline at 1530 grams, so I'm not adding more than a pound to my original build of 27lbs 12oz. I think this is pretty good weight for a burly 29er wheelset. Sorry, the pics are not well lit, but they are quite impressive with the Schwalbe HD 2.35 and Racing Ralph 2.25.:thumbsup: Almost makes my 429 look like a real Kawasaki 

I'll post some measurements tomorrow after I ride them:thumbsup: Oh, and they easily beaded up right away using an air compressor with the valve core removed.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Nice bike and wheels, don't get the weight of the wheels though, much heavier than I expected, never knew those DT350 hubs were so portly -_ Pro2s with Flows and DT Comps, build up around 1850g and the Flows weigh about 520 grams._ Nice foot print on those tyres though, well worth the extra weight.



MTB Pilot said:


> I just finished building these wheels today and I have to say they came out quite nicely. The 5 week wait with 9 days of shipping time weren't very impressive, but I understand the issue with the manufacturer and still have a lot of respect for Derby taking on this venture. My rims came in at 452 and 456 grams and the build weights with DT Swiss 350 15 and 142mm hubs, DT Comp 2.0/1.8/2.0 spoke and Stan's 21mm tape and valves are: Front 860 gr/ Rear 1050=> Total 1910. This is my first 29er and the wheels that came on it are DT Swiss XR1501 Spline at 1530 grams, so I'm not adding more than a pound to my original build of 27lbs 12oz. I think this is pretty good weight for a burly 29er wheelset. Sorry, the pics are not well lit, but they are quite impressive with the Schwalbe HD 2.35 and Racing Ralph 2.25.:thumbsup: Almost makes my 429 look like a real Kawasaki
> 
> I'll post some measurements tomorrow after I ride them:thumbsup: Oh, and they easily beaded up right away using an air compressor with the valve core removed.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

LyNx said:


> Nice bike and wheels, don't get the weight of the wheels though, much heavier than I expected, never knew those DT350 hubs were so portly -_ Pro2s with Flows and DT Comps, build up around 1850g and the Flows weigh about 520 grams._ Nice foot print on those tyres though, well worth the extra weight.


Portly?

DT 350 hubs = 194g front, 294g rear.
Hope EVO's = 177g front, 305g rear.

Original Flows averaged 540g/rim when they existed. New Flow EX's are 545g on average.

A set of Flows laced to Hope Pro 2 EVO hubs using DT Competition butted spokes and alloy nips comes in at 2027g.

Please check and verify your "facts" before presenting them as such.


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Hubs: 15mm 175g/ 12x142 307g. Rims 452 and 456g. Stan's 21mm tape and valves. 32 DT comp spokes and alloy nipps.

Dunno? Not to worried about the weight; I bought them for techy terrain performance.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Never weighed them, going by what has been listed on sites selling them and from weights listed by other owners, unfortunately I don't have a scale of my own. Was not stated as a fact, more as an observation as I believed, thanks for correcting me, really always believed the listed weights.

[edit to add] Never looked there before because they didn't offer complete wheels before, but just checked Hopes site and they also list 2030g as well. Now 'm wondering what the hell my old 26" Mavic XM231 laced to XT M756 hubs weighed then, because they're hell of a lot heavier than my Pro2/Flows, guessing this may be why my transition to 29ers I never felt it hard to spin the wheels up 


mikesee said:


> Portly?
> 
> DT 350 hubs = 194g front, 294g rear.
> Hope EVO's = 177g front, 305g rear.
> ...


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Finishing my build. What is the best tape or rim strip to allow mounting tires with track pump? Ideally I can even re-mount one bead trailside in case of mishap/puncture - with a mini pump. Specifically running Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.35.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

....


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## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

Motivated said:


> Finishing my build. What is the best tape or rim strip to allow mounting tires with track pump? Ideally I can even re-mount one bead trailside in case of mishap/puncture. Specifically running Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.35.


You carry a track pump with you for trailside repairs? Impressive.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

DLd said:


> You carry a track pump with you for trailside repairs? Impressive.


No. I guess originally my post was ambiguous in that way, now clarified. 
So, any help with tape/rim strip recommendation?


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## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

Motivated said:


> No. I guess originality my post was ambiguous in that way, now clarified.
> So, any help with tape/rim strip recommendation?


Sorry, no help with rim strip. I like to restrict my commenting to the areas of my expertise, like immature interpretations of ambiguous remarks 

I would just go with whatever rim tape Derby recommends.


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

I used the 12mm Stan's tape Derby recommends. It fits perfectly - no need to worry about it being too narrow. Anybody having much luck setting these up tubeless with a floor pump? Think I might have to break down and buy a compressor for these


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

chunkylover53 said:


> I used the 12mm Stan's tape Derby recommends. It fits perfectly - no need to worry about it being too narrow. Anybody having much luck setting these up tubeless with a floor pump? Think I might have to break down and buy a compressor for these


You say 12mm wide tape fits perfectly, but you can't inflate with a floor pump. What tires are you mounting and what techniques are you using (soapy water, pre-inflate with tube, etc)?


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

Motivated said:


> You say 12mm wide tape fits perfectly, but you can't inflate with a floor pump. What tires are you mounting and what techniques are you using (soapy water, pre-inflate with tube, etc)?


The 12mm tape, as Ray suggests, works well. My problems setting them up tubeless with a floor pump has to do with getting the bead on the bead shelf. I am mounting Racing Ralphs, and they are a snug fit - just can't get the air in quickly enough. On many rims I can usually work at least one bead onto the shelf and then succeed with pump. But from experience I know a losing battle when I see one, and to save frustration I will just hold off until I have access to a compressor. I did air them up with a tube, and that produced just about the loudest snap when the bead seated that I have ever heard - I have no concerns about these burping or blowing off. The rims also built up beautifully - stiff and true.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chunkylover53 said:


> The 12mm tape, as Ray suggests, works well. My problems setting them up tubeless with a floor pump has to do with getting the bead on the bead shelf. I am mounting Racing Ralphs, and they are a snug fit - just can't get the air in quickly enough. On many rims I can usually work at least one bead onto the shelf and then succeed with pump. But from experience I know a losing battle when I see one, and to save frustration I will just hold off until I have access to a compressor. I did air them up with a tube, and that produced just about the loudest snap when the bead seated that I have ever heard - I have no concerns about these burping or blowing off. The rims also built up beautifully - stiff and true.


I tried the skinny tape and had similar results to yours. I got the tires (Knards in this case) to seat just fine, but when riding they'd weep sealant from between the bead and the rim. They didn't lose enough air to matter through the course of a ride, but the sidewalls were always wet (hence dirty) with sealant. I peeled the tires and tape off, cleaned the rim with alcohol, got a regular roll of Gorilla tape from my hardware store, then tore it to the right width to fill the entire inside cavity of the rim. My theory was to take up more of the available space/slop between the tire and rim.

And it worked. Getting them to take air was easier, seating the bead was easier (and equally loud) and they only weep if I let the pressure get too low -- think single digits. I don't ride this bike very often, so the pressure is always low when I pluck it from the hook.

My $.02: The skinny tape makes sense only if you are an extreme weight-weenie taking things to the Nth degree. A few extra millimeters/grams of tape makes things easier in many ways.

P.S. You can manually pull the bead onto the bead shelf when installing flaccid-casinged tires like Racing Ralphs and Knards. Manually meaning just use your hands to pull it out there until it gets too tight to get any further, then hit it with your floor pump. SNAP!


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## ABL guitars (Nov 28, 2013)

Have received my rims today! They look so grrrrreat! :thumbsup:







Greetings from Siberia! Sorry there's no snow on photo.. :smilewinkgrin:


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## agu (Jun 22, 2007)

Got my Derbys built up yesterday, and got them dirty today.

So far, so good. Snappy acceleration, and very responsive. More observations as I log more miles on them. :thumbsup:


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

agu said:


> Got my Derbys built up yesterday, and got them dirty today.
> 
> So far, so good. Snappy acceleration, and very responsive. More observations as I log more miles on them. :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 850712


hey AGU if thats a 2.35/2.4 RaRa on the back can you give a width measurement?


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## agu (Jun 22, 2007)

honkonbobo said:


> hey AGU if thats a 2.35/2.4 RaRa on the back can you give a width measurement?


Yup it's a 2.35. Will measure it up tomorrow morning (its 10:30pm right now over here).


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## DeeZee (Jan 26, 2005)

agu said:


> Got my Derbys built up yesterday, and got them dirty today.
> 
> So far, so good. Snappy acceleration, and very responsive. More observations as I log more miles on them. :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 850712


Sweet rig! What rims were you running before the Derby? Do you feel any difference in the ride assuming you were previously running alloy


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## agu (Jun 22, 2007)

honkonbobo said:


> hey AGU if thats a 2.35/2.4 NRaRa on the back can you give a width measurement?


With the calipers it's almost 60mm, casing width


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## agu (Jun 22, 2007)

DeeZee said:


> Sweet rig! What rims were you running before the Derby? Do you feel any difference in the ride assuming you were previously running alloy


I was running a pair of Velocity P35s. The Derby's feel more direct and snappy. I guess the lighter weight and shorter spokes contribute to this. They accelerate faster too. I've gradually lowered tire pressures for slightly more cush. Right now it's 16psi rear, 9.5psi front. For what it's worth I weigh around 155lbs.


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## MJ1 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Two quick questions for Derby rim owners*

From a design perspective these rims look fantastic. First question: Is the 30mm ID "too" wide for XC racing? Maybe a dumb question but I have to think the extra width translates to better grip, cornering, cush, etc but also has to make for more rolling resistance. Second question: Saw some crazy low psi's (10% riders weight!!), does that mean you can get away with smaller tires and still not risk smacking the rim?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

MJ1 said:


> From a design perspective these rims look fantastic. First question: Is the 30mm ID "too" wide for XC racing? Maybe a dumb question but I have to think the extra width translates to better grip, cornering, cush, etc but also has to make for more rolling resistance. Second question: Saw some crazy low psi's (10% riders weight!!), does that mean you can get away with smaller tires and still not risk smacking the rim?


Why would it result in increased rolling resistance? The tire footprint area is governed by pressure and weight on the tire. In other words a 1.5" and a 2.5" tire will have the same footprint area at the same pressure. Also, the rolling resistance produced by a narrower tire (assuming the same tire tread and pressure) will be higher.

Click on the following link and then read, "Why do wide tires roll better than narrow one?"

Rolling resistance - Schwalbe Professional Bike Tires


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> Why would it result in increased rolling resistance? The tire footprint area is governed by pressure and weight on the tire. In other words a 1.5" and a 2.5" tire will have the same footprint area at the same pressure. Also, the rolling resistance produced by a narrower tire (assuming the same tire tread and pressure) will be higher.
> 
> Click on the following link and then read, "Why do wide tires roll better than narrow one?"
> 
> Rolling resistance - Schwalbe Professional Bike Tires


Well for one thing...the weight difference of a 2.2 tire vs. a 2.4 tire is considerable and that alone will make it slower.....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Depends on the tire. Some Schwalbes are only ~50g heavier in a 2.4. 

And, depending on conditions, that 2.4 could be faster.


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## DLd (Feb 15, 2005)

YaMon said:


> Well for one thing...the weight difference of a 2.2 tire vs. a 2.4 tire is considerable and that alone will make it slower.....


Hence the reason to go with a wider rim instead of a wider tire to achieve the wider contact patch. Question is, will a 2.2 even work on a Derby rim, or do you need to go 2.4?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

DLd said:


> Question is, will a 2.2 even work on a Derby rim, or do you need to go 2.4?


Some will work better than others depending on tire profile.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

YaMon said:


> Well for one thing...the weight difference of a 2.2 tire vs. a 2.4 tire is considerable and that alone will make it slower.....


Firstly the question to which I responded was about rolling resistance. However, the weight difference is certainly not very significant, at least in my opinion. Possibly the energy required to carry that additional weight may be less than the gain from reduced rolling resistance. Let's take a typical example like a Schwalbe Racing Ralph 29" with Snake Skin. According to Schwalbe the 2.25 weighs 640g. and the 2.35 weighs 705g. If you use two of the wider tires you are increasing weight by 130g. (4.6oz.) If that is more significant to you than the benefits of a wider tire like better traction, comfort and rolling resistance, that's your choice.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

^^^This.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> Firstly the question to which I responded was about rolling resistance. However, the weight difference is certainly not very significant, at least in my opinion. Possibly the energy required to carry that additional weight may be less than the gain from reduced rolling resistance. Let's take a typical example like a Schwalbe Racing Ralph 29" with Snake Skin. According to Schwalbe the 2.25 weighs 640g. and the 2.35 weighs 705g. If you use two of the wider tires you are increasing weight by 130g. (4.6oz.) If that is more significant to you than the benefits of a wider tire like better traction, comfort and rolling resistance, that's your choice.


Yes, but aren't you now changing the profile of the 2.2 to the point where you are squaring it ?? I have heard situations where the cornering is reduced....well, you can add that 130 grams to the additional 120-150 grams (total) from going from a 30mm to the 35mm and now you are close to 3/4 pounds heavier....that you can feel.....as I said before....EVERYTHING has tradeoffs.

I ride with 2 different groups...if I rode the 35mm setup with one group, it would not a difference. With the other group, I would be struggling to keep up....


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## DeeZee (Jan 26, 2005)

^^^^^ This


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## nolan17 (Jun 9, 2009)

The reason we want 35mm rims is to put big tires on them, lets say 2.35 and up. The reason we want this is so these bigger tires have the same round profile as a narrower rim on a 2.0-2.2 tire. I would guess that a 2.2 tire on a 35mm wide rim would suck, yes you have a wider contact area but as soon as you start cornering, the lack of volume will cause the side knobs to be less on the edge where they need to be. Also this will cause you to smack the crap out of the rim because there is not enough volume in the stretched out tire, especially while cornering. I have 4 seasons on P35's and learned this the hard way, which sucked because they were so easy to ding up.

If you want to run 2.2's or less use another wheelset or just run a bigger tire on the Derby's and enjoy lots of traction, cornering and the added suspension a bigger volume tire provides. 

I realize different tire brands run differently, Schwalbe and Maxxis run a little big and WTB always seemed a little small from what they claim. As long as you keep those wheels moving the extra weight of the bigger tires will help keep your momentum better, just like on my fatbike. 

My .02

-Nolan


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

nolan17 said:


> The reason we want 35mm rims is to put big tires on them, lets say 2.35 and up. The reason we want this is so these bigger tires have the same round profile as a narrower rim on a 2.0-2.2 tire. I would guess that a 2.2 tire on a 35mm wide rim would suck, yes you have a wider contact area but as soon as you start cornering, the lack of volume will cause the side knobs to be less on the edge where they need to be. Also this will cause you to smack the crap out of the rim because there is not enough volume in the stretched out tire, especially while cornering. I have 4 seasons on P35's and learned this the hard way, which sucked because they were so easy to ding up.
> 
> If you want to run 2.2's or less use another wheelset or just run a bigger tire on the Derby's and enjoy lots of traction, cornering and the added suspension a bigger volume tire provides.
> 
> ...


AGREE with what you are saying....


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

I think its a tad overstated how much these rims "flatten" a tread... the 29mm (1.1 inch) inner width is still significantly smaller than 2.2 inches of tread....


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

I've got a Purgatory 2.2 on the back of a Banshee Paradox and a 2.4 on the front both on Flow rims. The Flow has an internal width of 25.5mm. Both tires, although the front looks wider, have the same rounded profile. I have never ridden a Derby rim but I'm interested in them for the future and wouldn't hesitate using them with the same tires, including the 2.2. Keeping things in perspective, the Derby rim is claimed to be 35mm. wide but that is an external dimension. The Derby is 29mm. internally, only 3.5mm. wider than the Flow. Go and spread the bead of a tire by 3.5mm. and tell me how much it changes the profile.:skep:


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## nolan17 (Jun 9, 2009)

Ronnie: good points, I was referring to the difference in say a 19 or 20mm internal width rim. A 9 or 10mm increase in width will definitely be noticeable in an Ardent 2.2 compared to 2.4, maybe a row of knobs on each side (?). Also your Flow EX's are a more all mountain rim compared to the more xc Crest or Arch. I have been riding 2.5's for 2 seasons so I can't imagine going back. 

I notice similar differences with fatbike wheels and tires. A 3.8 on an 80mm rim is pretty stretched out, but a 4.8 is perfect, a 3.8 on a 50mm rim would be perfect for dirt but not snow or sand. (I know wrong forum)

-Nolan


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Happy Holidays!

It's great to read all the reviews and see pictures of bikes with Derby Rims. You guys, and girls ... there have been a few girls ordering rims too! .... have made the opening of Derby Rims a great success. And the success has kept me extremely busy, with very long hours 7 days a week combined with my full time 30+ year career job I'm not ready to give up, since I may wake up from this dream if I pinch myself : )

I'm now able to make much larger production orders and the rate of production is improving. I have nearly filled all the long delayed back-orders, some waiting more than 4 weeks until I could ship. Today nearly all options are in stock again to be able to ship immediately.

Due to the the most requests... by far... for other rims sizes, I'm planning to offer a 26" x 40mm wide rim in early 2014. I'll refrain from revealing further hopes and plans, but needless to say I like what wider rims add to handling sketchy trail conditions.

You guys riding 29 x 35mm Derby Rims are leading a small and growing trend towards wider rims. I think that 35mm wide rims will become an option for major bike brand's offering original equipment carbon-fiber rims in two or three years. But by far most carbon fiber rim riders are XC racers and want rims under 400 grams, which is impossible to do with 35mm wide rims with any durability.

Thanks for your comments and orders and for referring others to check out Derby Rims!

I miss visiting MTR regularly. And really hope I can visit again soon!

Ray


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Hi Ray. Would you be interested into a third party funding for the future 26" rims design and startup process ?


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

What tubeless valves are working well in these rims? Stan's? Seems like a long valve may be needed.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Motivated said:


> What tubeless valves are working well in these rims? Stan's? Seems like a long valve may be needed.


I use/like Stans 44mm road valves in my Derby rims.


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

I used the longer Stan's version.


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## kragu (Jun 14, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I use/like Stans 44mm road valves in my Derby rims.


Standard or heavy duty for, let's say, a 2014 Lenz Lunchbox? Speaking of rims...not valves.


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## 4slomo (Jul 4, 2006)

Check out the Derby web page for the recommended valve stem.



Motivated said:


> What tubeless valves are working well in these rims? Stan's? Seems like a long valve may be needed.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

4slomo said:


> Check out the Derby web page for the recommended valve stem.


Hmmm. I had read through the site but somehow overlooked that 44mm (length) is recommended. But the rubber seal of tubeless valves are not all the same and I've noticed some fit better in certain rims. For example I have some with square rubber block that seal better in my Stans rims than the Stan's valves.


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## slip20 (Mar 19, 2009)

*Velocipede*

Great looking rims, derby. Cool avatar, sorry, going off topic, but check out my buddies bike...ain't no lightweight rims here!








edit...sorry folks, I clearly can't figure out where to locate my post in the string, and off topic to boot.


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

slip20 said:


> Great looking rims, derby. Cool avatar, sorry, going off topic, but check out my buddies bike...ain't no lightweight rims here!
> View attachment 855761
> 
> 
> edit...sorry folks, I clearly can't figure out where to locate my post in the string, and off topic to boot.


Ask if he will sell the seat, That would look good on my Rip9 RDO.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

For those worried about too squared off of a profile with these rims. Here is a picture with a 2.25 Racing Ralph


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## ABL guitars (Nov 28, 2013)

Built up my wheels on Hope Pro2evo hubs, 282mm DT competition spokes and 12mm alloy nipples. 282mm length seemed to be a little longish for the rear drive side, 280 would be better I think. But finally it looks like everything turned out fine and now I enjoy my winter bike


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Finished building my Derby front wheel with AmClassic hub, DTsupercomps and alu nipples. I'm using the fork as a trying stand and centering is within approx. +\- 0.5mm. According to my Park tensiometer I have 89-99 kgf (18-19 on the scale) for non-disc side and uniform 137 kgf (22 on scale) on disc side. Is this a normal difference? I guess I should be more accurate with dish measurement - my estimate from this build is that +10kgf tension changes the dish by 0.5mm to that side. Maybe I'll have an LBS check it on a truing stand. 

Derby site recommends 105 - 130 kgf and Max of 150 kgf.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Motivated said:


> Finished building my Derby front wheel with AmClassic hub, DTsupercomps and alu nipples. I'm using the fork as a trying stand and centering is within approx. +\- 0.5mm. According to my Park tensiometer I have 89-99 kgf (18-19 on the scale) for non-disc side and uniform 137 kgf (22 on scale) on disc side. Is this a normal difference? I guess I should be more accurate with dish measurement - my estimate from this build is that +10kgf tension changes the dish by 0.5mm to that side. Maybe I'll have an LBS check it on a truing stand.
> 
> Derby site recommends 105 - 130 kgf and Max of 150 kgf.


It is normal to have such a spoke tension difference between both flanges on dished hubs. Depending on the difference of the diameter and center to flange distance of each flange, you can have anything between 60% to 80% of the tension of the higher tension side on the other side. Your numbers looks good IMO. Just throw it on a real truing stand once you get the chance to take out any radial and lateral run-out and make sure it's well dished.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Motivated said:


> According to my Park tensiometer I have 89-99 kgf (18-19 on the scale) for non-disc side and uniform 137 kgf (22 on scale) on disc side. Is this a normal difference?
> 
> Derby site recommends 105 - 130 kgf and Max of 150 kgf.


Get that wheel dished properly and bring the drive side tension down a bit. There is no reason to have the tension that high.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

bog said:


> Get that wheel dished properly and bring the drive side tension down a bit. There is no reason to have the tension that high.


There's not more reasons not to have it that high either. Properly dished and round wheels sporting high spoke tension are proven to stay true longer and less likely to develop a wobble.

However, too high of a tension can cause stress fatigue to the nipples if frequent truing is made (aka playing around too much during lacing at Hugh tension) and you risk of having the spoke pulling out of the nipple, even more if the wheel is subject to a strong lateral impact.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

I built mines with all brass nipples and up to 130 some kgf tension without issue.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

David C said:


> There's not more reasons not to have it that high either. Properly dished and round wheels sporting high spoke tension are proven to stay true longer and less likely to develop a wobble.
> 
> However, too high of a tension can cause stress fatigue to the nipples if frequent truing is made (aka playing around too much during lacing at Hugh tension) and you risk of having the spoke pulling out of the nipple, even more if the wheel is subject to a strong lateral impact.
> 
> ...


How many wheels have you built in your lifetime?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Jobst Brandt says the higher the tension the stronger the wheel so generally, you should shoot for close to max that is allowed by the spokes/rim/nipples/hub (generally the hub or rim) on the tight side.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

SandSpur said:


> How many wheels have you built in your lifetime?


Over 9 000 !!!


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

David C said:


> There's not more reasons not to have it that high either. Properly dished and round wheels sporting high spoke tension are proven to stay true longer and less likely to develop a wobble.
> 
> However, too high of a tension can cause stress fatigue to the nipples if frequent truing is made (aka playing around too much during lacing at Hugh tension) and you risk of having the spoke pulling out of the nipple, even more if the wheel is subject to a strong lateral impact.
> 
> ...


Your first sentence makes no sense at all. Lay off the sauce and give advice that helps (like staying within a manufacturer's recommended tension range).

There's a practical limit with spoke tension that provides a solid build with little need to re-tension in the future. Stick to the manufacturer's recommendations, assemble the wheel well, dish it properly, tension the spokes evenly and you'll have a wheel that lasts a long time and can take a kicking. If it was a lower spoke count wheel then I'd agree to stick to a higher tension but it just isn't necessary with a very stiff rim and 32 spokes. You're just asking for trouble when the wheel gets older. I've seen too many wheels built with high tension (carbon and aluminum rims) with broken nipples and cracks around the spoke holes.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Motivated said:


> Finished building my Derby front wheel with AmClassic hub, DTsupercomps and alu nipples. I'm using the fork as a trying stand and centering is within approx. +\- 0.5mm. According to my Park tensiometer I have 89-99 kgf (18-19 on the scale) for non-disc side and uniform 137 kgf (22 on scale) on disc side. Is this a normal difference? I guess I should be more accurate with dish measurement - my estimate from this build is that +10kgf tension changes the dish by 0.5mm to that side. Maybe I'll have an LBS check it on a truing stand.
> 
> Derby site recommends 105 - 130 kgf and Max of 150 kgf.


You probably know this already but I'll throw it out just in case: that difference is a function of the AC hub flange height and spacing, and has little to do with the Derby rim.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

David C said:


> Over 9 000 !!!


That's quite amazing since it looks like you started riding in 2009. You're a machine (literally)!


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

David C said:


> Over 9 000 !!!


-8998?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

You guys don't get the reference. It's alright, we still love you.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

David C said:


> You guys don't get the reference. It's alright, we still love you.


I get the reference.. i chose to ignore it


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

We're getting off topic here, sorry about that guys.


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## OldHouseMan (Dec 7, 2006)

Any reason to go with the light duty over the heavy duty? Or vice-versa? These will be going on a rigid SS.


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

ABL guitars said:


> Built up my wheels on Hope Pro2evo hubs, 282mm DT competition spokes and 12mm alloy nipples. 282mm length seemed to be a little longish for the rear drive side, 280 would be better I think. But finally it looks like everything turned out fine and now I enjoy my winter bike


Nice bike. What make/model fork is that?


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm thinking on a rigid SS you won't be doing much hucking or AM riding...the light duty is more than fine. The term "light duty" is a bit misleading. I have some of the first rims (which are now the light version) and they are incredibly stout. So I wouldn't be concerned at all about strength etc. But then again, 40 or so grams isn't that much more, unless you're a weight weenie.



OldHouseMan said:


> Any reason to go with the light duty over the heavy duty? Or vice-versa? These will be going on a rigid SS.


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## ABL guitars (Nov 28, 2013)

dimitrin said:


> Nice bike. What make/model fork is that?


Thnks! It's Niner carbon fork.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

according to the pics and measurements on the internet, the width and height of the tire on Derby rims does not significantly change at the top of the wheel
BUT what about at the bottom (at the contact patch/the effective height and width)?
I read that you can use less pressure and still not bottom out the tire into the rim or lose sidewall support, but with the combo of the wider rim and lower pressure, what does that really do to the effective height and width of the tire
anyone do any roll down test to determine the best tire pressure for rolling resistance?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

ccm said:


> what does that really do to the effective height and width of the tire


Lower pressure increases the size of the contact patch. Increased width makes the contact patch wider and shorter.


ccm said:


> anyone do any roll down test to determine the best tire pressure for rolling resistance?


it depends on the surface, but for anything other than smooth pavement, the lower the better for riling resistance. You are going to be limited by squirm and rim strikes.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi all.. Im thinking about going with for some derby rims with i9 torch hubs and straight pull spokes(ive always wantd to try them).. Question is-- since the spoke holes arnt angled or offset--- and some of the guys have mentioned the bending of the nipples at the end.... Do you think the i9 spokes would be ok? My worry is they bend or crimp on the end(since the spokes are hollow) and create a week point for the spoke to break.. 

Do we know of anyone that is able to redrill the holes in so cal and put a small angle to them? 

Would be nice if we could get these rims drilled at angles and relieve the bending stress on the end of the nipples..


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

My wheels are complete:





















AmClassic hubs - 15mm front, QR / XD driver rear.
DT SuperComp spokes - all 278mm length. 
DT aluminum 14mm nipples in front, DT brass 12mm nipples in rear.

Tension (Park tool): 
Front:
22-23 = 122-137kgf (brake side), 20-21 = 99-110kgf (non brake side). 
Rear:
22-23 = 122-137kgf (drive side), 20-21 = 99-110kgf (non drive side)

Weight:
per DT calculator = 1600g, but I failed to verify. 
as shown in pics: 
F = 4.0lb (1814g) with 2.35 Nobby Nic tubeless, 203mm RT-76 rotor.
R = 4.8lb (2177g) with 2.35 Nobby Nic tubeless, 180mm RT-76 rotor, X01 cassette.

This was the second set of wheels I've built. (First was LB rims with nearly the same components). I had no issues with lacing and spoke lengths/nipple lengths were perfect. I used the frame and fork for truing. My LBS let me use their truing stand, but I got different dish measurements when flipping the wheel, so abandoned that. To check dish I fabricated a simple tool: cut a piece of card stock into a shallow angle triangle, added some lines and inserted between the frame and rim to measure the gap. I think it worked better than a caliper. Runout is nearly perfect. Tension is very uniform. The DT spokey tool is great!

I used 1 layer of 12mm Stan's tape and it seems OK, but it's not much wider than the spoke holes. I'd recommend 14mm if you can find it, or 2 slightly offset layers.

Based on previous posts I knew tire install would be tight, so I first installed tires with tubes and let them stretch out at 40-50 psi for a few days. Then I removed the tubes, leaving 1 bead attached and had to swap the rim strip for Stan's tape. With a bit of suds the free bead snapped right on. I'm going to add a small bottle of liquid soap to my camelback in case I need/want to try tubeless trailside repair instead of throwing in a tube.

Riding impressions to follow - these had better allow 18psi without folding over or I'll be disappointed. I can't go below 22 on my Arches.


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Motivated said:


> Riding impressions to follow - these had better allow 18psi without folding over or I'll be disappointed. I can't go below 22 on my Arches.


Looks good. A strip of Gorilla Tape cut to width would also work well.

Doesn't the casing construction/durability play a pretty big variable if the tire "folds" over or not along with air pressure? Schwalbe tires tend to have weaker sidewalls.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The casing construction has almost no effect. I don't remember the links, but basically the rim width has the most to do with it.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

18psi with a carbon rim is asking for trouble in my opinion. Are you running 18psi in the front and higher in the rear?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> The casing construction has almost no effect. I don't remember the links, but basically the rim width has the most to do with it.


Can you please find the links that state such claims? I find that hard to believe.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> Can you please find the links that state such claims? I find that hard to believe.


Definitely hard to believe because it goes against common sense, science and real world experience.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't have time right now, but you should be able to Google it just as easily as I can.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Well I'll tell ya this. My 500g XC tires, sure squirm/fold MUCH more than my 1200g DH tires on the same rims, so I'm going to say that tire contruction does play a part.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> I don't have time right now, but you should be able to Google it just as easily as I can.


French model........ French model.........


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

bog said:


> Definitely hard to believe because it goes against common sense, science and real world experience.


Doesn't really go against science. I would tend to agree with "yourdaguy". Support is provided by the mass/volume of air in the tire. As an airline pilot I have seen of tons of aircraft lifted up off collapsed undercarriages and supported with airbags. The airbags themselves air relatively thin and flexible.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> Doesn't really go against science. I would tend to agree with "yourdaguy". Support is provided by the mass/volume of air in the tire. As an airline pilot I have seen of tons of aircraft lifted up off collapsed undercarriages and supported with airbags. The airbags themselves air relatively thin and flexible.


We're talking about lateral stability here and not flotation

There is absolutely no disputing the fact that differently constructed tire casings (and tread) will change the stability, resistance to burping and resistance to rolling off of the rim.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Back home now: here is one link I found first try on Google.

Tech Tuesday ? Wider Rims Are Better and Why Tubeless Tires Burp Air - Pinkbike

I have also read several other articles along these lines and I don't care if you believe it or not.

I wish people on the net would quite dissing people just because they present an idea that is not in line with what they already think. When someone posts something I find dissonant, I will generally spend 10 minutes trying to find out why that person believes that. Only after doing my own research and still finding a problem with what they said will I put in my 2 cents.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Back home now: here is one link I found first try on Google.
> 
> Tech Tuesday ? Wider Rims Are Better and Why Tubeless Tires Burp Air - Pinkbike
> 
> ...


So where does it say that casing construction has almost no effect on tire stability?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Read, as long as there is almost any flexibility, the principals will apply. It doesn't have to spell it out.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Read, as long as there is almost any flexibility, the principals will apply. It doesn't have to spell it out.


I read it when the article was originally posted and I read it again a few minutes ago. There is absolutely nothing in there that even implies that tire casing has no effect on stability. On fact, it implies just the opposite. A stiffer tire casing helps limit the lateral movement of the tire on the rim. If you study the force diagrams in this article it will become clear to you that a tire with a stiffer casing will not deflect laterally as much.

The article even states that " course, a narrow tire could not flex far enough to allow the contact patch to get near the danger zone, but a big, flexible 2.35-inch tire on a 22-millimeter (OD) cross-country rim certainly could.". The key word is "flexible" because a flexible casing will deflect laterally more than a tire with a stiff casing when mounted to a narrow or wide rim.

A wider rim definitely adds stability to any tire but does not change the fact that tire casing construction plays the biggest role. For example, my Specialized Control casing tires are quite unstable on my stock E29 rims and are better but still unstable on my Derby rims. My Maxxis tires which are virtually identical in width but have sturdier casings are very stable on both rims.

The same can be said for the the Specialized S-Works casings vs Specialized Control casings vs the Specialized Grid casings. Same tire width, same tread but stability is vastly different across the different casings when mounted on exactly the same rims no matter the inside width.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

As I stated before, the overall effect of stiffer casings is very marginal. I don't know where you buy your tires, but the stiffest tires I ever had were steel bead Stouts. They still had very flexible sidewalls that would allow the tire to flatten at low pressure and move sideways easily. I stand by my statement that the difference between say an Ardent and and Ikon which are on either end of the stiff sidewall spectrum will have almost no effect on burping if pressure and rime width are the same. I can't imagine any MTB tires that would have a stiff enough sidewall to affect this very much. The article is telling you what is relevant. A narrow tire can't flex enough, a big flelxible 2.35 tire would fllex enough. It does not state the obvious that you can't buy a big MTB tire that is stiff enough to effect this much, or that anyone would want to. Even 1200 gram downhill tires can flex quite a bit at low pressure which means all the stuff in the article then comes into play.

I tell you what: you put the stiffest tires you can find on your bike and I will put wide rims on mine and we will both be happy.

I am not sure what the question is at this point, but I am positive that stiff tires is not the answer.

I am done!


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> As I stated before, the overall effect of stiffer casings is very marginal. I don't know where you buy your tires, but the stiffest tires I ever had were steel bead Stouts. They still had very flexible sidewalls that would allow the tire to flatten at low pressure and move sideways easily. I stand by my statement that the difference between say an Ardent and and Ikon which are on either end of the stiff sidewall spectrum will have almost no effect on burping if pressure and rime width are the same. I can't imagine any MTB tires that would have a stiff enough sidewall to affect this very much. The article is telling you what is relevant. A narrow tire can't flex enough, a big flelxible 2.35 tire would fllex enough. It does not state the obvious that you can't buy a big MTB tire that is stiff enough to effect this much, or that anyone would want to. Even 1200 gram downhill tires can flex quite a bit at low pressure which means all the stuff in the article then comes into play.
> 
> I tell you what: you put the stiffest tires you can find on your bike and I will put wide rims on mine and we will both be happy.
> 
> ...


I happen to be a tire tester for a major tire manufacturer. I get to test LOTS of tires from different manufacturers in different casings, tread patterns & tread compounds and the differences can be substantial. I run these tires on various different wheelsets that I own including Derby 29er Wides.

I suggest that you get a bit more experience with different tires and rims to learn a bit more about the differences. It will become apparent if you pay attention.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

bog said:


> I happen to be a tire tester for a major tire manufacturer. I get to test LOTS of tires from different manufacturers in different casings, tread patterns & tread compounds and the differences can be substantial. I run these tires on various different wheelsets that I own including Derby 29er Wides.
> 
> I suggest that you get a bit more experience with different tires and rims to learn a bit more about the differences. It will become apparent if you pay attention.


A paper thin road bike tire at 110psi. will flex much less than your 1200g. downhill tire. it is not the tire that supports the load. It is the air.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> A paper thin road bike tire at 110psi. will flex much less than your 1200g. downhill tire. it is not the tire that supports the load. It is the air.


Apples to oranges there - grasping at straws. Be my guest to slap that road tire on your mtb and give 'er off-road!

We're comparing tires of the same size, at the same pressure with different casings.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

That old article implies a few things:

Why do you need big tires? 2.4 tires are finding their way onto AM/Trail riders' bikes, for what reason? More volume, lower pressure, and more traction... at the cost of higher risk of burping, especially on non-UST rims, and lower lateral stability. People back in Dec '11 apparently weren't interested in going full UST for tubeless, claimed to be the best by a long margin in that article, and instead converted their setups which were prone to such problems.

The author drew up his short list of why wider rims is the answer. His first reason is rather controversial: he claims that weight can be saved, going with less rubber and more alloy/carbon, getting volume from the rim rather than the tire. Second, casing from wide tires can lose some material, due to the support that the wide rim provides.

Sounds like he's against big balloony tires that are floppy and suggests to make rims wider, since people apparently demand more volume, lower pressure, more traction, less flop/squirm, and lower risk of burping and still desire to keep everything lightweight. To suggest wide rims combined with smaller tires, he seems to leaning towards the performance of a sporty street tuner car, and away from the performance of a 4x4 like a Jeep.

Not sure about alloy advancement allowing wide rims made from aluminum alloy though, based on credible sources:



> @mbcracken @angryasian Yes. There's no easy way to make wide aluminum rims light. We're at the limits of the extrusion process now.
> 
> - Keith Bontrager (@Keith_Bontrager) October 18, 2013


Tubeless standards weren't widespread back then. Tire beads didn't have an extra layer of rubber around it for the purpose of making an air tight seal against the rim, for one. Varying bead seat diameters were another. Getting tires tight fitting on a myriad of rims, sometimes meant not being able to fit on rims designed to make looser tires fit tighter.

Derby rims at least have that hump, which prevents burping. Honestly, the only argument really against these rims is the question of whether or not the change in tire profile is good or bad. For the price, you can't expect advanced composite technology. It's a good pilot to test a design theory and break the ice. I only post in these threads to question all the dubious claims people have, such as wider rims making the tire taller, how the tire's casing doesn't make a significant difference in "folding", and how the volume of the wide rim allows a smaller tire to be comparable to the comfort of a bigger tire on slightly narrower rim. Whether it has more traction or is faster or not, are subjects I'd really like to get more credible data on.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

bog said:


> Apples to oranges there - grasping at straws. Be my guest to slap that road tire on your mtb and give 'er off-road!
> 
> We're comparing tires of the same size, at the same pressure with different casings.


It makes no difference. I've for example tried Specialized Control and Grid Purgatory tires at 24psi. The Control has thinner sidewalls and scuffs and leaks sealant but I feel no difference in ride characteristics. Again the system is supported by the pressurized air.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/e0c70q5k9umqwjg/iKWahYKeim

Here is my stack of tested tires, let's see yours.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

^ what is this, a nerd fight for ego supremacy to prove personal beliefs in terms of "credibility"? Who doesn't have a stack of tires and if you saw someone else with a more impressive looking stack of tires, would you accept their beliefs?

That one article you linked doesn't have any scientific stuff in it besides saying that the taller the tire, the more leverage there is on the tire to make it roll side-to-side. The narrower it is secured to the rim, the easier it is to roll. The combination of very high volume tire and narrow rim suffers significantly from that effect, enough to make it burp on non-UST rims. It says that the effect happens despite pumping up the tire to a "rock hard" 35 psi, on what appears to be a 26" wheel. It doesn't say that the casing doesn't help. You drew that conclusion yourself. In fact, it implied that material could be reduced from the casing and put into the rim, as the wider rim would provide the stability.

20mm is not as narrow as you think. You probably are thinking of the difference of holding a balloon by its knot and seeing how floppy it is, rather than a point about a third as wide as its widest point. Going from holding the tire at a point about as third as wide as the tire, to about half was wide, with better tubeless properties--that seems to be what the author wanted from increasing the width of the rim by about 50% back in Dec '11.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/e0c70q5k9umqwjg/iKWahYKeim
> 
> Here is my stack of tested tires, let's see yours.


I gave an NDA signed to prevent from showing my tires but my pile of steel bead tires is 3 times as high in 26 and 29 tires and I at least 5 times that in folding bead tires. Not to mention tubeless road and CX tires.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yeah.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> It makes no difference. I've for example tried Specialized Control and Grid Purgatory tires at 24psi. The Control has thinner sidewalls and scuffs and leaks sealant but I feel no difference in ride characteristics. Again the system is supported by the pressurized air.


Ride harder. I'm certainly much heavier and taller than you at way north of 6' and 200 lbs and can easily burp my Spec Butcher and Purg 2Bliss Control casing tires at 28 psi. On top of this they're really unstable when pushing hard through berms. This is not at all the case with the Grid casing tires or any of my beefier casing Maxxis tires. On my Derby rims at 28 psi the Control casing tires are better but still terrible. These things are for light riders or fat XC tires at best.


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

Guys, the carcass construction does, in fact, have an effect on tire 'squirm', particularly on narrow rims. The effect may not be as noticeable on wide rims. But it's undeniable: a 2 ply DH tire, or even a 60 tpi with sidewall protection, will squirm less than a 120 tpi version of the same tire out of the same mold, on the same rim, at the same inflation pressure.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

From a real tire tester.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

bholwell said:


> Guys, the carcass construction does, in fact, have an effect on tire 'squirm', particularly on narrow rims. The effect may not be as noticeable on wide rims. But it's undeniable: a 2 ply DH tire, or even a 60 tpi with sidewall protection, will squirm less than a 120 tpi version of the same tire out of the same mold, on the same rim, at the same inflation pressure.


Thanks. Good to have that cleared up by someone credible.

Speaking of credibility, how credible is this statement from RC (author of that old article linked earlier)?










Even I have trouble determining whether something's said to sell stuff, earn brownie points with mfgs, etc. rather than truly honest and candid opinions from the media. I just know that they can't say certain things, else they risk their financial well-being (ex. jobs)... they tend to be more open in private. RC seems to be more of a tabloid writer, sensationalizing questionable subjects, and creating controversy, more for amusement rather than arming the consumer with knowledge to make better decisions.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> From a real tire tester.


He used to be an engineer at Maxxis.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Wouldn't trust that idiot _(Richard Cunningham)_ as far as I could throw him, his past tenure at MTB Fiction should serve to enforce that. BHolwell on the other hand, a guy who actually gets paid to design tyres we ride and use, completely - need not say more than HR2 


Varaxis said:


> Thanks. Good to have that cleared up by someone credible.
> 
> Speaking of credibility, how credible is this statement from RC (author of that old article linked earlier)?
> 
> ...


----------



## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

Varaxis said:


> Thanks. Good to have that cleared up by someone credible.
> 
> Speaking of credibility, how credible is this statement from RC (author of that old article linked earlier)?
> 
> ...


It sounds like R. Cunningham may have misunderstood what Stan was saying. Here's the quote:



> flag Art-of-Aragon (Dec 13, 2011 at 21:36)
> According to this, if we use wider rims, it prevents leverage. which means you can also correct burps by having shorter sidewalls on your tires. or higher sidewalls on your rims. or maybe even a inner side wall on the rim with a bigger hook.
> 
> flag RichardCunningham Mod Plus (Dec 14, 2011 at 13:39)
> ...


I don't believe a tall rim wall would leverage the opposite bead (meaning the outside bead in a corner) any more than a low rim wall height. The inside bead, perhaps. But not the outside bead. Have you ever burped the outside bead in a corner? It's usually the inside bead that is forced off of the bead shelf, causing the burp, or momentary loss of air pressure. Granted, the outside bead sees more stress during cornering. But if the outside bead were to come up and over the rim wall, it would not be a burp, it would be a blow-off. And that's not what this article was about. This is just one of several issues I had with this article.

If RC had a conversation with Stan Koziatek regarding rim wall height and burping, Stan likely meant that a high rim wall could leverage the inside bead off of the bead shelf during hard cornering. I could see this, particularly if the carcass / bead construction was very stiff at the area just above the bead. But I think this would be a minor factor compared to inflation pressure, rim width, and tightness-of-fit between the tire's beads and the rim.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

First ride today - Derby rims / 2.35 Nobby Nics. To the trail I had ~30psi whatever from setting up tubeless. At the trailhead I let out a bunch of air front and back until sidewall was somewhat compliant based on pinch test and basically laying on the saddle - you know what I mean. (In retrospect I would estimate the pressure was 22psi, but at the time I didn't want to measure it). Rode up a rooty steep wet climb and definitely had more traction than my other bike with Arches and 2.25 Rocket Ron's - no surprise. Took a rocky downhill and noted more absorption and certainly stiffer wheels than my other bike. After 15min I decided I was getting too much kickback from the rear so reduced the pressure and actually let out quite a bit more air front and back. Rode some really lumpy rocky stuff and was happy with the inflation, but the compound on the Nobby Nics doesn't inspire confidence on smooth wet rock. Then rode some fast off camber trails and finished with a ridiculously steep rocky climb where the traction was great, a fire road downhill and a rocky chute where the absorption was great. Noted some squirm, but it was predictable and acceptable. Rode home on the road, slammed over a few low curbs with no concern or hint of rim contact, noted just a touch of jounce / biopace due to the low pressure (you might call it monkey motion on an FS).
Measured pressure at home:
front = 15psi
rear = 16psi
Based on that - I'd set the pressure pre-ride to 16-18 psi. 

As I said - these rims (and tires) better allow 18psi or I'll be disappointed. 
I'm not disappointed. 
In fact I'm really, really pleased this wide rim, wide tire, low pressure, hardtail experiment is a success.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I can't imagine riding my carbon rims at 18psi. I would be brake-checking for every small rock.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Riding at somewhere like Lake Garda I can imagine increasing pressure to 20psi with my setup. 
But if you bought wide carbon rims, then increase tire pressure, that makes no sense to me because low pressure is a huge performance benefit (better traction and lower rolling resistance) - to me more important than weight or stiffness.


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

Motivated said:


> But if you bought wide carbon rims, then increase tire pressure, that makes no sense to me because low pressure is a huge performance benefit (better traction and lower rolling resistance) - to me more important than weight or stiffness.


Thuren meant that he'd be afraid of rim strikes at that pressure. I would be too. The wider rim will allow for less tire squirm while cornering at lower inflation pressures, but it won't reduce the likelihood of rim strikes. Even if the rim is durable / tough enough to take it, there's still the chance of pinch flatting your tire (even a tubeless tire).


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## pwu_1 (Nov 19, 2007)

Motivated said:


> First ride today - Derby rims / 2.35 Nobby Nics. To the trail I had ~30psi whatever from setting up tubeless. At the trailhead I let out a bunch of air front and back until sidewall was somewhat compliant based on pinch test and basically laying on the saddle - you know what I mean. (In retrospect I would estimate the pressure was 22psi, but at the time I didn't want to measure it). Rode up a rooty steep wet climb and definitely had more traction than my other bike with Arches and 2.25 Rocket Ron's - no surprise. Took a rocky downhill and noted more absorption and certainly stiffer wheels than my other bike. After 15min I decided I was getting too much kickback from the rear so reduced the pressure and actually let out quite a bit more air front and back. Rode some really lumpy rocky stuff and was happy with the inflation, but the compound on the Nobby Nics doesn't inspire confidence on smooth wet rock. Then rode some fast off camber trails and finished with a ridiculously steep rocky climb where the traction was great, a fire road downhill and a rocky chute where the absorption was great. Noted some squirm, but it was predictable and acceptable. Rode home on the road, slammed over a few low curbs with no concern or hint of rim contact, noted just a touch of jounce / biopace due to the low pressure (you might call it monkey motion on an FS).
> Measured pressure at home:
> front = 15psi
> rear = 16psi
> ...


How much do you weigh ready to ride?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Motivated said:


> But if you bought wide carbon rims, then increase tire pressure, that makes no sense to me because low pressure is a huge performance benefit (better traction and lower rolling resistance) - to me more important than weight or stiffness.


I bought these rims for a massive increase in lateral stiffness, less tire squirm, and a more "square" tread profile, all while dropping a bit of weight.

I can see where you are coming from with your desires, but unfortunately rock strikes and carbon do NOT get along. You mentioned earlier these rims BETTER allow 18psi or you will be disappointed. To me, a broken rim is more disappointing.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

bholwell said:


> Thuren meant that he'd be afraid of rim strikes at that pressure. I would be too. The wider rim will allow for less tire squirm while cornering at lower inflation pressures, but it won't reduce the likelihood of rim strikes. Even if the rim is durable / tough enough to take it, there's still the chance of pinch flatting your tire (even a tubeless tire).


I have 1000g Minion 2.5's on my Derby's right now, and I stress on rim strikes if I go under 30psi front 32psi rear.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

pwu_1:
I weigh 180lb. 
Derby site recommended pressure is 10% of rider weight + 2% for rear. Therefore, 18psi front, 20psi rear. That's in line with my initial experience, but yes I'm liking pressure on the low side.

thuren:
I think we simply ride differently. My rims are on a carbon Highball and I ride "fast XC". 2.35" Nobby Nics is the burliest tire I've ever ridden. I have no business commenting on pressure for 2.5" Minions. Amazing these rims have such a broad application!


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## trumpus (Jul 21, 2009)

Anyone running these on an SB95c? Wondering how they fit?


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## ttusomeone (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm looking to build a carbon wheelset. What's the latest opinion on these rims versus some LB versus something more expensive like Rovals? I live in Tennessee and ride XC and weight 135 lbs if that helps.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

what about the compatibility with these rims and i9 straight pull setups? Since these rims arnt directionally drilled-- my worry is that the aluminum i9 spokes might bend or crack coming out of the rim holes.. Any thoughts?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Motivated said:


> pwu_1:
> I weigh 180lb.
> Derby site recommended pressure is 10% of rider weight + 2% for rear. Therefore, 18psi front, 20psi rear. That's in line with my initial experience, but yes I'm liking pressure on the low side.
> 
> ...


Oh for sure! Thing is, we all know that sneaky rock can pop up out of the blue, and bite you. Just know as mentioned in the other carbon rim threads, if you have dents in your aluminum rims, you should bump up your pressure a little when going to carbon. The same forces that made those dents in the aluminum, will make cracks in carbon, and the rim is done.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

ttusomeone said:


> What's the latest opinion on these rims versus some LB versus something more expensive like Rovals?


I have a set of Roval Traverse SL rims, and have run through/built about 5 sets of the LB rims, and one set of Derby 29er's. I have banged the Rovals HARD, riding a little loose completely exhausted during race conditions, and they show ZERO evidence of the rock "twangs".

I have exploded a couple LB rims, and stress failed a few more(internal delaminations rim still seems to ride fine though), just riding really hard. DH like conditions on a trail-bike.

The rock strikes my Rovals took, would have been sure thing failures on LB rims. The rims I have/had were bought about a year ago not sure if they have improved. The Rovals ARE much stronger than the LB rims.

My Derby's have been seeing a LOT of use lately, in very rocky terrain, and have been holding up perfect. That said, I have seen a failed Derby rim, just not sure of the details.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

thuren said:


> My Derby's have been seeing a LOT of use lately, in very rocky terrain, and have been holding up perfect. That said, I have seen a failed Derby rim, just not sure of the details.


There has been one 29'er failure in roughly 300 delivered so far. I replaced it, and every one of the very few failures of the 650b's, immediately for free with no charge for shipping too. I hate that it happened for anyone, the downtime waiting and having to swap spokes and nipples to the replaced rims and re true or pay for that. Due to the very rare failures, less than 1%, I expect there are rare materials or process defective irregularities in the resin bond between layers, such as a trapped bubble too large to tolerate the small amount of flex while rolling, and the resin around the weak spot or bubble fatigues quickly until the layers on either side of the growing size of resin bond weakness cannot support weight and collapses and shows up as a crack.

Each failed rim stayed very close to true and the tire stayed snug on the rim, and could be ridden more carefully sometimes many miles back to the trail head. Most continued to hold full tubeless air pressure for days.

I feel the ability to ride a failed cracked carbon rim is a major safety factor compared to many failed metal rims I have experienced myself that tacos beyond trail side straightening or splits at the weld and becomes impossible to ride, and could mean a long hike in blister making stiff soled shoes, possibly without enough water or clothing into the mid day heat or cold dark of night.


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## slow ridr (May 23, 2012)

How much does the profile of tire increase with Derby rims compared to Arch Ex? I'm running a Conti TK 2.2 on Arch EX on a Ripley and am concerned with clearance as I can't test fit before purchase.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Not much.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

slow ridr said:


> How much does the profile of tire increase with Derby rims compared to Arch Ex? I'm running a Conti TK 2.2 on Arch EX on a Ripley and am concerned with clearance as I can't test fit before purchase.


Surely somebody's made this switch... or something close enough, and has some numbers.?? It will be as if the tire's swelling outward slightly...probably not more than 2mm on top, and a little more on the sides. How much clearance do you have now?
Varaxis posted a graphic that's telling... if you stare at it long enough....demonstrates how a tire's profile changes with rim width, at what point a tire stops growing in height and starts shrinking, and importantly, how the profile is always round.... "squaring the tire" is a bit of a misnomer....The tire's shape is simply a bigger or smaller circle with a wider or narrower rim.

http://forums.mtbr.com/27-5-650b/derby-vs-light-bicycle-35mm-650b-895042-2.html#post10944370

An aside: I've got Derby 650's on a Mojo, and did some rides on a Ripley with Arches, and riding the two back to back makes it obvious that the skinny alu wheels on the Ripley really hold it back for aggressive riding. Do it, dude, DOOO IT!



thuren said:


> I have exploded a couple LB rims, and stress failed a few more(internal delaminations rim still seems to ride fine though), just riding really hard. DH like conditions on a trail-bike.


Thuren, how many LB rim failures have you had?.... Out of how many LB rims owned?


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

In my limited experience - the change in tire profile at the knobs on a Derby vs Arch rim is less than measurement error. To me, the effect of tire profile with Derby rim is zero. But, due to better sidewall support, lower pressure can be used without folding/buckling the sidewall in corners.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

slow ridr said:


> How much does the profile of tire increase with Derby rims compared to Arch Ex? I'm running a Conti TK 2.2 on Arch EX on a Ripley and am concerned with clearance as I can't test fit before purchase.


Mountain bike tires do not increase in diameter or grow taller with wider rims, even when doubling tire pressure. I've tested this by measuring roll-out length, circumference. The circumference is constrained, like a belt that does not stretch, diameter change is a direct result of circumference change. In fact there is zero measurable tire diameter change no matter what width the rim is.

However, the sidewall widens with the rim width increase, and diminishes in width increase towards the top of the tire. So the tread's edge knobs are rotated sightly upward around the fixed length tire diameter's tread center-line, and the edge knob's clearance is reduced about 1 to 2mm.

If you have less than 4mm clearance near the edge knobs now with narrow rims. Wider rims could increased any existing tire rub problem without going to a slightly smaller tire. Wider rims, both metal and especially carbon-fiber, make stiffer wheels and side flex is reduced allowing tighter tire clearance without rub problems.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Interesting!

I didn't see any growth in diameter with my setup, just a very small decrease in shoulder lug clearance from the upward rotation you mention, but I assumed it was because I was making a relatively small rim width increase and using a not-very-large tire; and because of other people claiming they had a height increase using very large-casing tires.

I would expect to see some diameter growth if you were switching from, say, a Mavic 819 with 19mm width to one of your rims, using a large volume tire like a HD 2.35 or a Trail King... is that not the case?


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## bholwell (Oct 17, 2007)

*Inflated Carcass Dimensions vs. Rim Width*

A while back I calculated the following carcass dimensions for a ~2.1" tire at various rim widths.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, that makes sense.....so with a typical rim upgrade of, say, a 23mm Flow to a 29mm Derby the height change is barely measurable, if at all. Awesome... thanks for the learnin'... I find this stuff incredibly interesting.


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Anybody having fit issues w their tires after switching to these? Want them for Santa Cruz tallboy lt w/ ardent 2.4s...

Also, it appears LB now has a regular and heavy duty version of bead hook less wide 29er rims (29 inner 35 outer). Are these any different than Derby's?

Thanks


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

lstone84 said:


> Anybody having fit issues w their tires after switching to these? Want them for Santa Cruz tallboy lt w/ ardent 2.4s...
> 
> Also, it appears LB now has a regular and heavy duty version of bead hook less wide 29er rims (29 inner 35 outer). Are these any different than Derby's?
> 
> Thanks


The ~1mm decrease in lateral tire clearance is offset by the increased wheel stiffness. So, if you are OK with tire clearance on your wheels with flimsy, narrow rims, will be OK with new wheels built with these stout, wide rims.

I'm also curious about your second question.


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Motivated said:


> The ~1mm decrease in lateral tire clearance is offset by the increased wheel stiffness. So, if you are OK with tire clearance on your wheels with flimsy, narrow rims, will be OK with new wheels built with these stout, wide rims.
> 
> I'm also curious about your second question.


I did some investigating, and I'm not sure Derby wants me to repeat it here, but I will. FWIW I'm getting the Derby's not the LB's. LB has a wide 29er rim, its 29mm/35mm like the Derby, but its more shallow. Rim Depth: LB - 25mm Derby 32mm. From what I gather, the increased depth increases stiffness, which is what I want. I asked why LB went shallow and their explanation was that at some point the wheels become too stiff. Everything else is the same, per LB. LB's are a little lighter, assuming from the slight design difference.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

lstone84 said:


> I asked why LB went shallow and their explanation was that at some point the wheels become too stiff.


:nono:
That's an old wives tale. Kinda like you need 150 kg spoke tension to build a stiff wheel


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

doismellbacon said:


> :nono:
> That's an old wives tale. Kinda like you need 150 kg spoke tension to build a stiff wheel


I wasn't buying it, just relaying their message. Anyway, how long is the shipping on these at this point? Also, Has anyone paired these w/ I9 Torch hubs, and, if so, what are you using for spokes/nipples..I am not too experienced with this stuff and would like to keep these wheels as light as possible.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

And the world wonders why their economies are going into the tank :skep: No sort of respect for a persons IP or designs in Asia and the rest of the world is just slurping up all the cheap **** and moaning there are no jobs :skep:


lstone84 said:


> Also, it appears LB now has a regular and heavy duty version of bead hook less wide 29er rims (29 inner 35 outer). Are these any different than Derby's?
> 
> Thanks


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

LyNx said:


> And the world wonders why their economies are going into the tank :skep: No sort of respect for a persons IP or designs in Asia and the rest of the world is just slurping up all the cheap **** and moaning there are no jobs :skep:


You are nuts if you think there is any substantial IP involved in Derby's rims.


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

The bottom line is that you can have pretty much anything you want made from carbon in China at a pretty cheap price if you are willing to put it in a large order up front. Derby did this, and I'd like to think he's made some money as a result. But his primary service here was as an entrepreneur, not a designer.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

LyNx said:


> And the world wonders why their economies are going into the tank :skep: No sort of respect for a persons IP or designs in Asia and the rest of the world is just slurping up all the cheap **** and moaning there are no jobs :skep:


I'm pretty sure there was enough evidence presented in the Derby thread to suggest that his rims are made by the exact same manufacturer as the LB rims. If so, he may have even got some protection that identical copies of his rims couldn't be manufactured for sale by anyone but him&#8230;at least for some period of contractual time. LB rims may be different for that reason, or different to reduce the cost on the extra carbon, or different because LB really believes their design superior. All hypotheticals, of course, but Derby's cool rims are partially influenced by what Asia can and can't do at a reasonable price.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Slow Danger said:


> If so, he may have even got some protection that identical copies of his rims couldn't be manufactured for sale by anyone but him&#8230;


lol... I got a bridge for sale... interested?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

meltingfeather said:


> lol... I got a bridge for sale... interested?


PM sent.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

meltingfeather said:


> lol... I got a bridge for sale... interested?


All hypotheticals fellas. Hypotheticals.


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

*Derby's are coming*

I ordered the Heavy Duty Derby wide 29er rims. I am pairing them with I9 Torch hubs. I am still shaky on how to figure out the spoke size, but I guess i'll find out somehow. I will be going with the Sapim super spokes most likely, they're the lightest I can find. Will post pics when finished.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

lstone84 said:


> I ordered the Heavy Duty Derby wide 29er rims. I am pairing them with I9 Torch hubs. I am still shaky on how to figure out the spoke size, but I guess i'll find out somehow. I will be going with the Sapim super spokes most likely, they're the lightest I can find. Will post pics when finished.


I've only used the DTSwiss spoke length calculator and had no problems. It also calculates wheel weight if using DT spokes. Why did you order heavy duty rims but want light spokes?


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Motivated said:


> I've only used the DTSwiss spoke length calculator and had no problems. It also calculates wheel weight if using DT spokes. Why did order heavy duty rims but want light spokes?


Derby recommended that anyone over 140lbs, that rides aggressively, opt for the Heavy Duty version. So, after gaining extra g's there, I want to minimize the weight elsewhere. Derby also confirmed that the stiffness of the wheels allows for the use lightweight spokes/nipples.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

lstone84 said:


> Derby recommended that anyone over 140lbs, that rides aggressively, opt for the Heavy Duty version. So, after gaining extra g's there, I want to minimize the weight elsewhere. Derby also confirmed that the stiffness of the wheels allows for the use lightweight spokes/nipples.


Per my experience - built a rear wheel with Revos, rebuilt with Comps and definitely noticed improved stiffness; and the below linked test &#8230; I'd think if you are an aggressive rider you'd want a stiffer wheel and a good way to do that is with thicker spokes. Just saying, for me, to keep the same mass, I'd choose the lighter rim and thicker spokes.

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Motivated said:


> Per my experience - built a rear wheel with Revos, rebuilt with Comps and definitely noticed improved stiffness; and the below linked test &#8230; I'd think if you are an aggressive rider you'd want a stiffer wheel and a good way to do that is with thicker spokes. Just saying, for me, to keep the same mass, I'd choose the lighter rim and thicker spokes.
> 
> Wheel Stiffness Test


I am an aggressive rider, but I am set on 29/35 wide rims. I found a few other carbon options with this width, that are a little lighter, but they are not as deep. Now that I have a wide carbon rim I am not worried about the stiffness, as these rims are supposedly incredibly stiff. You may be right that a lighter rim with heavier spokes provides the most efficient stiffness, but I am after the other benefits of the wide rim in addition to the increased stiffness provided by a carbon, and wide, rim. So now that I am at the point with wide carbon rims, that I believe will be sufficiently stiff, I want to keep them as light as possible. I believe the Sapim Super and Sapim CX-Super are pretty solid spokes.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

lstone84 said:


> I am an aggressive rider, but I am set on 29/35 wide rims. I found a few other carbon options with this width, that are a little lighter, but they are not as deep. Now that I have a wide carbon rim I am not worried about the stiffness, as these rims are supposedly incredibly stiff. You may be right that a lighter rim with heavier spokes provides the most efficient stiffness, but I am after the other benefits of the wide rim in addition to the increased stiffness provided by a carbon, and wide, rim. So now that I am at the point with wide carbon rims, that I believe will be sufficiently stiff, I want to keep them as light as possible. I believe the Sapim Super and Sapim CX-Super are pretty solid spokes.


I had the same thought process with my LB carbon rims &#8230; was not quite happy with stiffness and after 2 months rebuilt them with SuperComps 2.0/1.7/1.8 (not Comps as I wrote above). But with same spokes on the Derby rims, the wheels feel much stiffer. So I guess in the end you'll be happy. I can tell you I love riding with 18psi.


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## Temagami (Dec 20, 2011)

Motivated said:


> But with same spokes on the Derby rims, the wheels feel much stiffer.


Anyone else with a similar experience? About to pull trigger on 35mm LB's for my Enduro 29...


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Temagami said:


> Anyone else with a similar experience? About to pull trigger on 35mm LB's for my Enduro 29...


To clarify - I was comparing new Derby to original (24mm ID ?) LB rims, not the new 35mm LB rims.


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## Temagami (Dec 20, 2011)

Motivated said:


> To clarify - I was comparing new Derby to original (24mm ID ?) LB rims, not the new 35mm LB rims.


Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for the quick response.


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## lstone84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Temagami said:


> Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for the quick response.


Nox is coming out with a wide rim this spring, those look really nice too.The have a 27.5 internal, 35 external, and 25 mm depth. I like the much deeper Derby's, especially over the LB's, but if the nox were out now i'd have a tougher time choosing.

AM-29 Carbon Fiber Mountain Wheels | Nox Composites Carbon MTB Rims and Wheels


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi Derby Rim riders and friends!

Six months, one half year, and a couple weeks more has past since the grand opening of Derby Rims August 15, 2013. Derby Rims opened that day after much design work and prototype testing by posting just two MTBR classified ads and posting notice of the Grand Opening in the 650b and 29'er Components forums. The original two MTBR classified ads have been the only advertizement of Derby Rims. All marketing and sales has been promoted by riders of Derby Rims.

Highlights:

Less than 1% failures, all from manufacturing defects, all replaced for free.
A very low sale price for carbon rims, under $300, has been maintained for more than 6 months.
A 26” x 40mm wide rim is planned to be available this spring.
Over 525 rims delivered, around the world, to Japan, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, United Arab Emeritus, Russia, Austria, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Holland, UK (England, Ireland, Scotland), Canada, Alaska, Hawaii, and many of the mainland states of the United States.

Today, unfortunately, nearly all rim options are out of stock. The original molds were damaged to become unusable. The molds have been remade and production will resume after validating the molds produce evaluation rims correctly again.

The web store shopping cart will remain active to accept orders for delivery in a few weeks, so customers can still take advantage of the very low winter sale price. Rims will be shipped to customers in sequence of the back-orders as soon as I receive rims in about a month from new production. Prices will be raised after the Spring Equinox, after March 21.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

My Derby's have been beat to death and are rocking true!!!!! Bootleg canyon was testing my nerves, but rims are still perfect!


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

thuren said:


> My Derby's have been beat to death and are rocking true!!!!! Bootleg canyon was testing my nerves, but rims are still perfect!


Love Bootleg. It can be very hard on tires/rims. Did you get the HD extra carbon lay up on your rims? I did and went 36h as well. My derby rims are shod with the Minion DHF 2.5 DH 2 ply tires. Mucho burly. I'm about 230#'s ready to ride.

What tires/pressures are you running at Bootleg? Knowing what your weight is in riding gear would really help also.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

29erchico said:


> Love Bootleg. It can be very hard on tires/rims. Did you get the HD extra carbon lay up on your rims? I did and went 36h as well. My derby rims are shod with the Minion DHF 2.5 DH 2 ply tires. Mucho burly. I'm about 230#'s ready to ride.
> 
> What tires/pressures are you running at Bootleg? Knowing what your weight is in riding gear would really help also.


200lbs geared up riding a 2014 S-works Enduro 29er, with the single ply 2.5 1000g Minions. The wife and I were coming through town, and stopped to explore a bit. Did not know where we were going so we just stuck to what we could see. Looked like a fun place I want to go back.

If it means anything to you, I blasted a the "Girlscout DH" pretty good I think, for riding it twice, so says Strava haha! I'll take 28th place lol. Strava Segment | Girlscout DH


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Darby...Sorry to hear about the problems with the molds.. Any update to when the new batch of rims should be coming in? Your post was about 3 weeks back and you thought you might be shipping in a few weeks from that point.. So just wondering what the time frame is looking like.. if you are getting close to shipping or things are still a bit off..


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

SB Trails said:


> Derby...Sorry to hear about the problems with the molds.. Any update to when the new batch of rims should be coming in? Your post was about 3 weeks back and you thought you might be shipping in a few weeks from that point.. So just wondering what the time frame is looking like.. if you are getting close to shipping or things are still a bit off..


I just heard from the factory yesterday my rims are finally in production and will be shipping to me in a week, after 3.5 months of delays after they did not follow my specification for a very small design tweak which damaged the molds and then many long delays to repair their mistake after I discovered the rims were oversized and unsafe for use on the trail, very difficult to install and nearly impossible to remove from the rims just to fix a flat.

I have learned that predicting lead time based on factory estimates for production is not reliable, usually further delayed. I hope to have most and all rims in stock and ready for immediate delivery in 2 months, hopefully a few weeks earlier if a promise for faster supply rate is true. The 29er lighter layup is the most back-ordered now, by far, and possibly 6 weeks before I can ship to new orders. I hate this unnecessary delay, which could have been avoided with rapid repair of the mistake.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

I would like a "SL" 29er layup, in the 400 - 410g range...


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

While we are speaking of our "wish" rim.... 32mm outside 27mm inside 400g hookless... Yummmy


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

SB Trails said:


> While we are speaking of our "wish" rim.... 32mm outside 27mm inside 400g hookless... Yummmy


I think a 30mm wide with my parabolic rim wall design, that 400g's in 29" could be done, but have no warranties at all. Realistically, maybe 410 to 420g's for a 30mm outside, 25mm inside width with defect and crash (any reason) warranties.

With the deep parabolic rims, spokes are shorter than using other rims, saving about 20 grams, all else equal.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Speaking of Derby rims and Bootleg....

Just finished up a week's vacation in the SW with two long days at BC on a rear Derby rim. Ran a Spec Purgatory Grid 2.3" on my LTc. Perfect!

The profile of the 2.3" tire on that rim is perfect.

I have the 275 Derby with the same tire but haven't ridden it yet.

Keep up the good work D.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Have a few hundred miles on my Derby's now. The front is a 2.35 RaRa tire and Project 321 hub, Rear is a 2.25 RaRa tire and Chris King hub. Both laced with Revolution spokes and standard 12mm Brass nipples. Great Rim, and if Derby comes out with a 26" version, ill be buying a set for my other bike.


https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/855/o049.jpg


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

Whoa!
Derby worked with Ibis and now Ibis is making their own carbon fiber rims, though on either side of 29mm inside width:

http://m.bikeradar.com/news/article/ibis-rolls-out-wide-carbon-rims-40662

Another link:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/hot-news-ibis-launches-line-of-ultra-wide-carbon-wheels


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Motivated said:


> Whoa!
> Derby worked with Ibis and now Ibis is making their own carbon fiber rims, though on either side of 29mm inside width:
> 
> Ibis rolls out wide carbon rims | BikeRadar


Not too outrageously priced either.


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## twowheelfunman (Aug 29, 2008)

I read that Derby and IBIS split the cost of the new mold. I guess the new & wider rims will be coming to the Derby site too?


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## JYB (Nov 12, 2011)

twowheelfunman said:


> I read that Derby and IBIS split the cost of the new mold. I guess the new & wider rims will be coming to the Derby site too?


So can anybody verify if Derby will actually be selling 41mm width rims in the 29er flavor in the near future??? If so, I'd be in.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Only Derby can answer that. The Ibis rims are their own design and are manufactured in a different plant from Derby's.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

JYB said:


> So can anybody verify if Derby will actually be selling 41mm width rims in the 29er flavor in the near future??? If so, I'd be in.


As someone who is totally into wide rims, the 35mm x 29" rims, offer plenty of support for a 2.3" tire. Even for heavy duty trail riding, that is a lot of wheel on a 29er.

Not saying 41mm wouldn't be useful, but for most riding you are getting into the area of diminishing returns.


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## JYB (Nov 12, 2011)

Miker J said:


> As someone who is totally into wide rims, the 35mm x 29" rims, offer plenty of support for a 2.3" tire. Even for heavy duty trail riding, that is a lot of wheel on a 29er.
> 
> Not saying 41mm wouldn't be useful, but for most riding you are getting into the area of diminishing returns.


I hear ya', Miker J. I have a set of the Derby 35s in my basement waiting for me to build them up. I really like the idea of 40-45mm for my Knards and future 29+ tires.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

The rim world is going carbon hookless, I'm still super happy with my vanguard Derby rims and have no ENVE for any other the newer options.


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## thickfog (Oct 29, 2010)

Motivated said:


> The rim world is going carbon hookless, I'm still super happy with my vanguard Derby rims and have no ENVE for any other the newer options.


Ha! Well said.


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

doismellbacon said:


> Only Derby can answer that. The Ibis rims are their own design and are manufactured in a different plant from Derby's.


Are you sure? That's not how I understood it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

MTBMILES said:


> Are you sure? That's not how I understood it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need to read the press release more carefully then.


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

hillharman said:


> You need to read the press release more carefully then.


You're right, my mistake.  I guess my reading comprehension needs a little help.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

MTBMILES said:


> You're right, my mistake.  I guess my reading comprehension needs a little help.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine sucks too. The internet is rotting our brains. Sorry if I came off brusque.


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## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

I think that a Derby rim with a 32-33mm internal width would round out the options nicely.

I like the option of running a slightly wider rim in the front at times. Plenty of riders would want the even wider rims for both F&R all the time, and sometimes I would also.

Any chance for an offset spoke bed? That would just kill the competition...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Pretty sure offset spoke bed is patented and you have to pay a license fee to use it.


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

I've had my Derby rims in hand for over a month now and I finally ordered spokes tonight. Hopefully I can build them next weekend.


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## Possum Jones (Aug 27, 2011)

My derby 29's showed up yesterday. I'm having them laced to i9 torch hubs. I'm excited to get these things built up. It might be a week or so, but I'll surely post up some thoughts when I'm rolling.


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## kragu (Jun 14, 2011)

Possum Jones said:


> My derby 29's showed up yesterday. I'm having them laced to i9 torch hubs. I'm excited to get these things built up. It might be a week or so, but I'll surely post up some thoughts when I'm rolling.


Classic or straight pull?


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## billybaru13 (Jul 13, 2009)

How long did you have to wait for them to show up? I ordered up a set about a week ago, and was just curious how long I have to wait.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

billybaru13 said:


> How long did you have to wait for them to show up? I ordered up a set about a week ago, and was just curious how long I have to wait.


Ray had some production issues the last few months, so most orders were backordered. He has started shipping again, but it depends on what rims you ordered. You should have gotten a detailed email after you placed your order telling you about how long it will be, and he sends a VERY detailed email out every week letting everyone know the status on the various rims he sells. His communication has been top notch!


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## damian777 (Feb 7, 2007)

+1 on Rays communication. Received my 29's last week. Now to get them built up!


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

Built them up this past weekend. My first wheel build and everything went really smooth. Took the bike out yesterday for the first time with the new rims. Night and day difference from the Arch's they replaced. Very stiff and nowhere near the squirmy feeling I had with my old setup.









In case anyone is worrying about the profile of the tire changing with the wider rims, here is a comparison. The lower is on the Derby's and the upper is on my old Arch EX.


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## Possum Jones (Aug 27, 2011)

kragu said:


> Classic or straight pull?


I went with the conventional flanged torches. Custom i9 straight pull spokes would cost more than the derby's.

I'm going with silver hubs and silver spokes. I have the hubs and rims now. The spokes should be here this week and I should be built up this weekend.


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## Possum Jones (Aug 27, 2011)

billybaru13 said:


> How long did you have to wait for them to show up? I ordered up a set about a week ago, and was just curious how long I have to wait.


Maybe four weeks. I was actually expecting longer. Ray emails weekly with updates.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

The narrow Stan's tape which just covers the nipple holes needs to be perfectly centered … and mine wasn't … leading to leakage of sealant to the inside of the rim. I'm using brass nipples, but am concerned about corrosion from the ammonia in the Stan's sealant. Any suggestions how to clean inside the rim? Isopropyl alcohol?


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## DSTONGE (Jul 8, 2008)

I have ridden my derby's for about 30 days, they are awesome. I was on P35's the past 2 years, I can say the derby's are stiffer,lighter and stronger than the P35's. I absolutely love them! First mountain carbon rim and I'm sold!


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## MartinS (Jan 31, 2004)

I gave up on the Stans rim strips, switched to Gorilla Tape and have had no leakage issues since!


Motivated said:


> The narrow Stan's tape which just covers the nipple holes needs to be perfectly centered &#8230; and mine wasn't &#8230; leading to leakage of sealant to the inside of the rim. I'm using brass nipples, but am concerned about corrosion from the ammonia in the Stan's sealant. Any suggestions how to clean inside the rim? Isopropyl alcohol?


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

I have always rinsed with plain water, seems to work fine.


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## zokinjo (Aug 24, 2008)

Dear Derby,

any news on your EU distribution? We are all looking forward to have you here as well.

Please keep us informed. 
All the best!!!


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## Stacked (Jun 6, 2014)

Where are you from? 
He delivers in almost all European countries.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

Motivated said:


> The narrow Stan's tape which just covers the nipple holes needs to be perfectly centered &#8230; and mine wasn't &#8230; leading to leakage of sealant to the inside of the rim. I'm using brass nipples, but am concerned about corrosion from the ammonia in the Stan's sealant. Any suggestions how to clean inside the rim? Isopropyl alcohol?


You have to be right on the money with the narrow Stans tape or leakage will happen. I switched to some 18mm wide Orange Seal tape to solve that problem.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Motivated said:


> The narrow Stan's tape which just covers the nipple holes needs to be perfectly centered &#8230; and mine wasn't &#8230; leading to leakage of sealant to the inside of the rim. I'm using brass nipples, but am concerned about corrosion from the ammonia in the Stan's sealant. Any suggestions how to clean inside the rim? Isopropyl alcohol?


Ammonia has a high vapor pressure. I am sure it is all gone by now, no need to clean the inside of the rim.


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## Possum Jones (Aug 27, 2011)

I've been on the derby's nearly a month now. So far they've been bomber. I've put them through an enduro and I've ran them all over the mountains and xc type terrain. They're stifffff and they spin up to speed quickly.


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Ammonia has a high vapor pressure. I am sure it is all gone by now, no need to clean the inside of the rim.


Agree that Ammonia is evaporated. I tried to just dry out the rim. Then carefully re-taped 2 offset layers. Done.


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## offrhodes42 (May 1, 2009)

On a group ride last week a friend had a set of Derby rims and this was the first I saw of them. Now I am interested, but not sure if they would fit my use. I ride XC on a Jet 9 and currently use either a 2.1 IRD Fire XC 29 or a Panaracer Comet 2.0 on Arch EX rims at about 20psi (I weight 145). Would the Derby rims work well with 2.0-2.1 tires? Has anyone tried them on a Jet 9 and Reba? Is there enough clearance?


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

My 40mm wide 650b Derbys work great with a "2.2" tire that's actually 2.1" on a 23mm internal aluminum rim, and ends up being 2.3 on the Derby.... transforms a skinny but decent low volume tire into a grippy low pressure winner...feels like the volume of a 2.4. And my frame had zero extra clearance in the tread area, but the wider rim didn't noticeably change the clearance in the tread area.... just made the tire WAY wider down low near the rim.


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## locominute (May 29, 2006)

offrhodes42 said:


> On a group ride last week a friend had a set of Derby rims and this was the first I saw of them. Now I am interested, but not sure if they would fit my use. I ride XC on a Jet 9 and currently use either a 2.1 IRD Fire XC 29 or a Panaracer Comet 2.0 on Arch EX rims at about 20psi (I weight 145). Would the Derby rims work well with 2.0-2.1 tires? Has anyone tried them on a Jet 9 and Reba? Is there enough clearance?


I fitted a 2.4 chunky monkey on a Reba -with some room to spare.


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## offrhodes42 (May 1, 2009)

locominute said:


> I fitted a 2.4 chunky monkey on a Reba -with some room to spare.


Good to know. I am in the process of saving for the Derby rims. My Arch EX wheels are holding up fine, but my 4 yo Crests (rear, not really the front) have seen better days.


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## slowracle (Sep 23, 2009)

Possum: Looking forward to an update on your setup...



Possum Jones said:


> My derby 29's showed up yesterday. I'm having them laced to i9 torch hubs. I'm excited to get these things built up. It might be a week or so, but I'll surely post up some thoughts when I'm rolling.


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## 2TurnersNotEnough (Aug 31, 2004)

fyberglass said:


> Possum: Looking forward to an update on your setup...


I had my Derby 29s laced to the I9 Torch hubs/spokes. Total weight was 1690g (780g front, 910g rear). I am planning on running them on my Stumpy Expert Carbon 29, and my Czar. I'm heading to Mammoth in a couple of weeks and that's where I'll be breaking them in.

I'll try to post some pictures of them soon. They look sweet.


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

So what's the lightest Derby 29 build so far? I built mine up to be a durable trail set (at a still decent weight).  They've been fantastic. I'm starting to give thought to something a bit lighter for race days...but so many other rims don't have the benefits of Derbys, whether width, cost, secure bead etc. But just don't want to build up something that isn't "that" different. Anyone with CX rays and light hubs?


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## slowracle (Sep 23, 2009)

Did you get the Light, HD or DH version? Post pics before they get really dirty!



2TurnersNotEnough said:


> I had my Derby 29s laced to the I9 Torch hubs/spokes. Total weight was 1690g (780g front, 910g rear). I am planning on running them on my Stumpy Expert Carbon 29, and my Czar. I'm heading to Mammoth in a couple of weeks and that's where I'll be breaking them in.
> 
> I'll try to post some pictures of them soon. They look sweet.


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## 2TurnersNotEnough (Aug 31, 2004)

They're the standard non-HD spec.

Pics:


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## mxer (May 27, 2006)

Nice hoop builds in here!I was gonna build mine up but I think I am gonna sell them.Waiting on Ray to offer a fat bike hoop.I plan to go fat only.


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## hypokondriak (Oct 18, 2008)

I bought the 26" DH version and I have to stop by and mention how awesome it has been talking with Ray. Talk about a guy dedicated to his craft and helping you make sound decisions. I wish Ray/Derby all the success in the world - people like this deserve it!


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## ca_rider (Feb 3, 2008)

Derby 29" 35mm outer width HD rims with 240s 6-bolt hubs: 20mm OS front, 142x12 rear. DT Aerolite spokes with DT 12mm alloy nipples.

Weight is 802.7g front, 880.9g rear -> 1683.6g total. These could have been a bit lighter without the HD carbon and 20mm front hub, hopefully these options contribute somewhat to futureproofing the setup.

This is my first time using bladed spokes, the ability to visualize spoke windup was useful while truing. Current max tension is ~130 kgf on each wheel (15 on the Park TM-1).

These will run as 15mm front once I manage to get the 2nd stock 20mm adapter off, am trying to avoid pounding out the front axle just to remove the tight 20mm adapter.

One reason I went through Derby was to get these delivered without hassle ASAP. Was impressed with Derby's ~immediate communication and speedy shipping time. Thanks Derby!


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## tokarsky268 (Nov 16, 2013)

Not a Derby owner, but I had a question for them. Emailed at 11:55 PM EST. Went to bed and when I checked my email, there was response sent 15 minutes later! Even if they're on PST, that was a really fast turn around. Ray seems to really take pride in what he's doing. Given that and the customer service I got a little taste of, seems like a great company to patronize. Not sure I can swing Derbys, but would give them a hard look for sure. Just thought I'd share.


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## twowheelfunman (Aug 29, 2008)

In spring of 2014 I bought a set of American Classic Wide Lightning wheels. I love the lack of heft and the control these wheels provide. Unfortunately, I have put some nasty dings in the rear wheel using 30psi. I have either ran an Ikon 2.35 EXO TR or Ardent Race 2.2 EXO and dinged using both. 

I have never lost any air yet but upped the psi to 35 to let the rim survive the season but hate the lack of traction now. 

Thinking an HD Derby is the answer but will be leary of dropping the pressure back down. 

I weigh 170lbs and ride mostly along CO Front Range. I like to charge through rocky sections, double over water bars/roots etc. 

I've read posts about 22psi in rough terrain and find it hard to believe.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

American Classic rims are designed and manufactured to do well on the scale. How they work on the trail is what you've found--not really meant for bashing and banging. Pointless, IMO.

I'm at month 8 of running Derby's on a 6 x 6" bike. Had HD versions for ~4 months before that but wondered if they were overkill so I switched to light layup.

My typical afterwork ride:






Stick with it til the descent to get an idea of how they get ridden day in and day out. Trail is Pucker Up at the Lunch Loop in GJ.

I pretty much always run Minion DHF 2.5's at between 22 and 25psi, depending on where I'm riding and who I'm with. At these pressures I've dented/killed Flows, Flow EX's, i23's and i25's, Salsa Semi's and Salsa Gordo's. No damage to the Derby rims as yet.

I've run Ikon 2.35 out back but I tend to punch rocks through the casing when hauling the mail, and that gets expensive quick. No damage to the rims even when the tires have been kilt dead.
​


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

well, 2 of the HD 29er rims coming across the pond soon, to be mounted with Knards (or chronicles, if they pop out of the molds anytime soon).

build? well, the hubs are a SON CL 100mm front, which has symmetrical, albeit pretty narrow, flange spacing. Thankfully the flange diameter is pretty large. the rear is a 150mm 350 DT, again, symmetrical flange spacing. I'm thinking 2 cross with either comps or revolutions (help keep the weight low). aluminium nips. should drop a bunch of weight off the 44 bikes 29+.

ive not had any issues with aerolites or comps on enve rims, 2x, so i reckon this should be a pretty solid build. we'll see. more as i get them laced.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

twowheelfunman said:


> In spring of 2014 I bought a set of American Classic Wide Lightning wheels. I love the lack of heft and the control these wheels provide. Unfortunately, I have put some nasty dings in the rear wheel using 30psi. I have either ran an Ikon 2.35 EXO TR or Ardent Race 2.2 EXO and dinged using both.
> 
> I have never lost any air yet but upped the psi to 35 to let the rim survive the season but hate the lack of traction now.
> 
> ...


I've been running a light layup Derby up front from his first production run....so just about a year, and a rear HD layup for maybe 8 months. Our weight and riding style / conditions sound very similar. Mine show the surface marks from a few _dozen _strikes that were previously folding the bead down on Std Flow rims. On the Flows I ran minimum 26 front w/ 2.35 tires, and was asking for trouble if I ran anything less than 29 on the rear.

On the Derby's I've experimented with front pressures at and slightly under 20psi, and with a 2.4 front tire I'm now running 17 with much confidence. On the rear I've been keeping rear pressure no lower than 23-24 w/ 2.2's (that measured 53-54mm wide on the flow, and measure 57-58 on the Derby). With a Goma 2.25 which measures 60mm wide on the Derby, and is also a relatively tall casing, I'm confidently running 22 psi rear.

Bear in mind that mine are the 650b version which is 5mm wider. (Don't tar and feather me, and run me out on a rail! 

I think Derby's early recommendations on pressure were totally realistic in terms of tire stability, burping, etc., and still are for guys riding less aggressively or in more forgiving terrain, but may have been a little optimistic for guys who "like to charge through rocky sections" with reckless abandon (I'm guilty!).... but he's since updated his recommendations on that, IIRC.

With every person having a different idea of what chunk is, what charging is, and every tire having different characteristics, it makes sense to proceed w/ care and adjust pressures sensibly in comparison to what width rim you've been running and how well they've held up for you. For riders like me, going from a 23mm to a 35mm internal rim, a 5 psi drop is pretty safe IMO.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dRjOn said:


> well, 2 of the HD 29er rims coming across the pond soon, to be mounted with Knards (or chronicles, if they pop out of the molds anytime soon).
> 
> build? well, the hubs are a SON CL 100mm front, which has symmetrical, albeit pretty narrow, flange spacing. Thankfully the flange diameter is pretty large. the rear is a 150mm 350 DT, again, symmetrical flange spacing. I'm thinking 2 cross with either comps or revolutions (help keep the weight low). aluminium nips. should drop a bunch of weight off the 44 bikes 29+.
> 
> ive not had any issues with aerolites or comps on enve rims, 2x, so i reckon this should be a pretty solid build. we'll see. more as i get them laced.


My $.02 = for that narrow front hub, go with spindly spokes, *or* 2x, but not both. I went 3x with SuperComps on my first front, and 2x with Comps on the second. No doubt this is entirely subjective, but the Comp build felt more precise.

2x with Rev's on a 150 hub should be psweet.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

mikesee said:


> My $.02 = for that narrow front hub, go with spindly spokes, *or* 2x, but not both. I went 3x with SuperComps on my first front, and 2x with Comps on the second. No doubt this is entirely subjective, but the Comp build felt more precise.
> 
> 2x with Rev's on a 150 hub should be psweet.


Thanks mike! I appreciate the advice - will do one or the other ~


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mikesee said:


> American Classic rims are designed and manufactured to do well on the scale. How they work on the trail is what you've found--not really meant for bashing and banging. Pointless, IMO.
> 
> I'm at month 8 of running Derby's on a 6 x 6" bike. Had HD versions for ~4 months before that but wondered if they were overkill so I switched to light layup.
> 
> ...


Really nice video and loved the climbing. Nice to see that aspect as well!


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Anyone have any lacing input on a 2X NDS and 3x DS rear and vice versa for the front on 29 HD rims? Rider weight is 210lb totally kitted up. Spindly spokes I guess, maybe even CX-rays with Hadley hubs. Based on input read here, I could get away with the light layup option but will probably go HD for that extra margin of error. Or, heavier spokes but it seems folks are getting away with carbon wheel builds with spokes unthinkable on an alloy rim.

I've always laced 3 cross (10 wheels or so) but I want to try the 2x/3x for fun and something different. I see the rovals NDS are radial-laced but that's with center-pull spokes. I'm not too worried about different spoke lengths or cost and already have the hubs.


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Hey Rock,

I'm planning on my next build to be 32 hole 2x and then to re lace my Derby's eventually with CX Rays in a 2x pattern. This is some pretty interesting reading, and the link to the paper about lacing patterns even more: Wheel Building Philosophy and Other Info | Nox Composites Carbon MTB Rims and Wheels


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

MTB Pilot said:


> Hey Rock,
> 
> I'm planning on my next build to be 32 hole 2x and then to re lace my Derby's eventually with CX Rays in a 2x pattern. This is some pretty interesting reading, and the link to the paper about lacing patterns even more: Wheel Building Philosophy and Other Info | Nox Composites Carbon MTB Rims and Wheels


Yep, I read that. Nice info! I believe Enve also recommends or builds with a 2x on their 29" rims. The Ibis 928s I have are 3x and it's hard to go wrong with that. The other interesting thing about the Ibis build is that they use spoke washers. They informed me that because of the potential galvanic corrosion (because of the electrical potential between carbon and aluminum) that alloy nipples deteriorate. Thus, they use a stainless steel washer to insulate them from each other. From my research I don't see builders using them but it makes sense to me, as well as smoothing the interface for ease of building. Ray indicated to me that nipple washers are not needed with basic external nipples, and his spoke pull testing certainly validates the strength of his drilling (>325KgF before any damage to the rim).

Still learning:thumbsup:


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Yeah, I've never had a problem with rim integrity at the spoke holes, but I did have nipple corrosion with alloy nipples in one of my first LB carbon builds. Thing is, that the corrosion seem to be from water that got in the spoke holes and stayed do to the tape on the inside of the rim; Also was using non diluted simple green, which I was informed will corrode alloy. Most of the corrosion was on the tire side of the nipple head and not the nipple portion touching the carbon rim. I did use brass on my last build with CX Ray spokes, and am thinking of using their rounded head nipple since most of the China carbon rims are not drilled directionally. I think if your worried about alloy/carbon corrosion, maybe just go with brass, since you lose the weight advantage of alloy by adding a washer, to rest that fear and gain a stronger interface.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have the same experience with aluminum nipples and carbon rims. The corrosion starts on the side towards the tire. That is where the electrons are shed. Brass is the best solution.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

MTB Pilot said:


> Yeah, I've never had a problem with rim integrity at the spoke holes, but I did have nipple corrosion with alloy nipples in one of my first LB carbon builds. Thing is, that the corrosion seem to be from water that got in the spoke holes and stayed do to the tape on the inside of the rim; Also was using non diluted simple green, which I was informed will corrode alloy. Most of the corrosion was on the tire side of the nipple head and not the nipple portion touching the carbon rim. I did use brass on my last build with CX Ray spokes, and am thinking of using their rounded head nipple since most of the China carbon rims are not drilled directionally. I think if your worried about alloy/carbon corrosion, maybe just go with brass, since you lose the weight advantage of alloy by adding a washer, to rest that fear and gain a stronger interface.


FWIW I don't think it's ever been established that the examples of corrosion posted on mtbr are galvanic.

The theorizing by armchair wikipedia experts on mtbr is weak on some critical details (as usual).

A couple of relevant facts:

Depending on the alloy and oxidizing of the nipple, the ammonia in sealant can make a mess of nipples on its own without a galvanic couple (aluminum-carbon).
The same thing has happened to plenty of nipples in aluminum rims, where there is no galvanic couple, which tells me something.
It also does *NOT* happen in the _numerous_ other places that a typical high-end mtb has aluminum and carbon in direct contact in the presence of an electrolyte (sweat) but not in the presence of elevated ammonia concentrations, which also tells me something.

Brass will preclude corrosion in either case, so it's a safe bet. :thumbsup:


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## slowracle (Sep 23, 2009)

Thank for the pics 2TurnersNotEnough... here's mine, I just got it today.

Purple Torch I9s: 15mm front and 12x142 rear with Torch XD Driver.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

MTB Pilot said:


> I think if your worried about alloy/carbon corrosion, maybe just go with brass, since you lose the weight advantage of alloy by adding a washer, to rest that fear and gain a stronger interface.


Just to clarify, this in not entirely correct. The weight for 32 stainless steal washers equates to a whopping 4 grams. A standard brass nipple is 3 x the weight of the alloy version. 32 g verus 10 g for a 32 spoke wheel.

Brass seems like a no-brainer but they only come in black or silver. And let's face it, half the fun of building a custom wheelset is throwing some creative bling in there. If you want some color your only option is alloy and adding in the washers seems like a good compromise, especially if the additional weight gain is minimal; as well as improving spoke seating angle (ie., many carbon rims are not directionally drilled) as possibly minimizing corrosion between the aluminum nipple and carbon rim (the jury is still out on that one?).


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I have yet to see any evidence that washers do anything to improve spoke angle. What they do guarantee is a massive added PITA when building, with the end result that spokes will still break and then you'll need to lace (with washers?) all over again.

Directional drilling is needed, and little by little (as poorly drilled rims are returned, dampening their profit margins) the factories are 'getting' that.


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## hillharman (Sep 8, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I have yet to see any evidence that washers do anything to improve spoke angle. What they do guarantee is a massive added PITA when building, with the end result that spokes will still break and then you'll need to lace (with washers?) all over again.
> 
> Directional drilling is needed, and little by little (as poorly drilled rims are returned, dampening their profit margins) the factories are 'getting' that.


Mike, since you are here, are any of the factory direct carbon options doing directional drilling yet that you know of?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hillharman said:


> Mike, since you are here, are any of the factory direct carbon options doing directional drilling yet that you know of?


Not that I've seen yet.

But really, why would they need to?!



Not a Derby rim pictured, although Ray has been looking into the idea. Full disclosure--I've built a few dozen Derby rims and the only ones that would have truly benefitted from directional drilling were those laced to 190 fatbike hubs.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Thanks for the input on washers. I see a picture like that and if washers won't help I don't see how a Sapim polyax brass nipple would either.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

rockman said:


> Thanks for the input on washers. I see a picture like that and if washers won't help I don't see how a Sapim polyax brass nipple would either.


Washers were never to help spoke angle... they can only make it worse.
You're right, Polyax won't help either because the rim is so thick and the hole so small that the alignment is radial, period.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

I've been thinking, for the first time, of getting a set of wide carbon 29" wheels and been looking at what is available. I have not considered directional drilling, until now. The photo above looks bad and I just would not be happy with that wheel. With that in mind, which composite rims have directional drilling?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Enve.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Enve.


Would love to get a set but at $1000 a rim I'm going to look further.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Ronnie said:


> I've been thinking, for the first time, of getting a set of wide carbon 29" wheels and been looking at what is available. I have not considered directional drilling, until now. The photo above looks bad and I just would not be happy with that wheel. With that in mind, which composite rims have directional drilling?


Of the hundreds of carbon rims I've built to date, I'd guesstimate that less than 1% of them would have benefitted from directional drilling. Am I for it? Sure. Is it mandatory? No way.

The picture I showed above is of a wheel that will never get shipped. I sent that pic to the distributor, they agreed it was fooked, and they replaced it.

A simpler solution than directional drilling, if you must concern yourself with it, is to have them drilled for internal nips.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yeah, I think ENVE are way over priced. But they are the only ones with directional nipple holes. Their holes are actually molded not drilled.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

As minesweeper said, not necessary.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Yeah, I think ENVE are way over priced. But they are the only ones with directional nipple holes. Their holes are actually molded not drilled.


Another disappointment is that the Enve M70 29" is relatively narrow:

Width (Inner)	25
Width (Outer)	32


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## Phinox (Jul 13, 2013)

You are all making me jealous, being a super clyde I can not enjoy the world of CF wheels, frames or other parts.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

mikesee said:


> A simpler solution than directional drilling, if you must concern yourself with it, is to have them drilled for internal nips.


ding ding ding!!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> Yeah, I think ENVE are way over priced. But they are the only ones with directional nipple holes. Their holes are actually molded not drilled.


Even if the directional problem was anything other than a *perceived* issue, I'd still rather buy *two* complete sets of Derby rims/wheels for the same rough price as *one* set of ENVE.

I'm all for buying American and all that, but ENVE quality and service has left me wanting every time. Their holier-than-all 'tude is getting old, too.


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## kai_ski (Apr 24, 2013)

Phinox said:


> You are all making me jealous, being a super clyde I can not enjoy the world of CF wheels, frames or other parts.


what's the weight limit on these?


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

kai_ski said:


> what's the weight limit on these?


Technical Specs


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

Now that I have a couple months on my Derby's I can say they are one of the best investments I have made for my bike. They completely changed the way the bike handles and corners. Way stiffer than the Arch's they replaced. From XC to chunky downhill, they have exceeded my every expectation.


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

Spam alert (I did post and pay for ad in classifieds): I have a pair of new rims for sale in classifieds. These are my second set - I love them and bought them for a winter project, but have decided to go in a different direction. I could do a good deal.


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## chunkylover53 (Apr 5, 2007)

What are people's experiences with Derby rim and 29+ tires (or should I say Knard...)? Lotta squirm? Just wonder about it as another option. I run rabbit holes set up tubeless - they're good, just feel a little heavy at times.


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## vice grips (Dec 21, 2012)

I was thinking of trying a set of webs new 2.8 650bs tires on my Derbys 40mm rims on a pivot 429 . Wondering if the rims will be wide enough. Think the wtb rims are 50mm wide. Any thoughts?


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

Just received mine in the 29er HD flavor. They look awesome and the weights are consistent, and as advertised. I am still waiting on the spokes to build the wheels up. They are going to replace a set of LB rims I have been riding on for the past two seasons. The rear LB rim has basically finally given up the ghost, so I am taking this opportunity to move to a more stout, dedicated AM wheels set-up. I should be riding these in Auburn, CA. this weekend. Can't wait!


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Not that I've seen yet.
> 
> But really, why would they need to?!
> 
> ...


Don't take this as advertising, we only sell through IDB's and professional wheel builders. Our rims are in fact directionally drilled. This allows much higher tension on the spokes without any binding.

Atomik Carbon Rolls Out Premium Carbon Mountain Rims and Components


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Atomik Carbon said:


> Don't take this as advertising, we only sell through IDB's and professional wheel builders. Our rims are in fact directionally drilled. This allows much higher tension on the spokes without any binding.
> 
> Atomik Carbon Rolls Out Premium Carbon Mountain Rims and Components


I know you carbon rim guys are all buddies and share your secrets about layups and factories and such but maybe time for your own thread? This is Derby's thread. Just say'n.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Atomik Carbon said:


> Don't take this as advertising, we only sell through IDB's and professional wheel builders. Our rims are in fact directionally drilled. This allows much higher tension on the spokes without any binding.
> 
> Atomik Carbon Rolls Out Premium Carbon Mountain Rims and Components


Good old Yamon.. selling his crap in other peoples thread... This is the same guy who couldnt steer people away from hookless rims quick enough, then goes and changes his MTBR name and starts selling hookless rims....

and now he has gone low enough to do it in another vendors thread.. classy move Yamon


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

SandSpur said:


> Good old Yamon.. selling his crap in other peoples thread... This is the same guy who couldnt steer people away from hookless rims quick enough, then goes and changes his MTBR name and starts selling hookless rims....
> 
> and now he has gone low enough to do it in another vendors thread.. classy move Yamon


Well I won't be responding to this afterwards because this is not my thread....other than to say that we have spent the last 2 years setting up distributors all over the world. You should also be seeing our products on a some pretty big brands.......


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Atomik Carbon said:


> Well I won't be responding to this afterwards because this is not my thread....other than to say that we have spent the last 2 years setting up distributors all over the world. You should also be seeing our products on a some pretty big brands.......


Says the guy who says there are no advantages to a hookless design, then goes and suddenly starts selling them... riiiight. Your credibility is shot.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

SandSpur said:


> Says the guy who says there are no advantages to a hookless design, then goes and suddenly starts selling them... riiiight. Your credibility is shot.


When you go into business, your goal is to succeed. Why would you open a fruit stand to sell oranges when you can sell other fruits, vegetables, juice, etc????


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Atomik Carbon said:


> When you go into business, your goal is to succeed. Why would you open a fruit stand to sell oranges when you can sell other fruits, vegetables, juice, etc????


Id just feel like a moron if I told everyone how bad other juices were for you, then suddenly said theyre great and tried to sell them...


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Atomik Carbon said:


> Don't take this as advertising, we only sell through IDB's and professional wheel builders. Our rims are in fact directionally drilled. This allows much higher tension on the spokes without any binding.
> 
> Atomik Carbon Rolls Out Premium Carbon Mountain Rims and Components


So on the Nox Composite thread, I mentioned Derbys were on sale since some people had brought up price and you replied



Atomik Carbon said:


> What a classy move........


So I guess your high moral standard only applies to others and not yourself.

Real piece of work and yes I neg repped you for being such a hypocrite.

As far as the Derbys, loving mine.


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

This atomic/Yamon dude is such a douche; and he either doesn't even know it or doesn't care or both. He tried to scare people off the 'chinese carbon rim' thread, now he is trying to wedge himself into this one. Even if he marketed a decent product, I wouldn't go near his stuff... even if he paid me.

Back to the topic at hand... Spokes come in tomorrow. I'll build them tomorrow night and ride them the next morning. I'm very interested to check out the fuss about the wide profile and hookless set-ups.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Yamon is hilarious! He's the most fantastic bull-slinger during my years on mtbr. Holy crap, the stones on this guy. Don't change Atomik Carbon Yamon. Never change.


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## Atomik Carbon (Jan 4, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> So on the Nox Composite thread, I mentioned Derbys were on sale since some people had brought up price and you replied
> 
> So I guess your high moral standard only applies to others and not yourself.
> 
> ...


My response was directed to the thread where no one was aware of any carbon rim company doing directional drilling.....Atomik Carbon does this.... I apologize to Derby for these submissions, just want to set the record straight. Our product .....especially our Mod Hook Design is unique and our hookless design is super strong at 3.5mm. You will be seeing our products soon....on many established brands...

Later....


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

Atomik Carbon said:


> My response was directed to the thread where no one was aware of any carbon rim company doing directional drilling.....Atomik Carbon does this.... I apologize to Derby for these submissions, just want to set the record straight. Our product .....especially our Mod Hook Design is unique and our hookless design is super strong at 3.5mm. You will be seeing our products soon....on many established brands...
> 
> Later....


Nice, more advertising.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

MTBMILES said:


> Nice, more advertising.


Yep, I just figure Id start pooping in his vendor threads too. There is one in the endurance racing forum thats worth checking out.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

You're basically full of ****. You're response was no different in context than mine. Again a hypocrite in the truest sense of the word.

Thanks for the neg rep, yours was deserved, while the neg rep you gave was a childish retaliation- not that rep on this site matters.


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## DIABLO-V (Sep 19, 2014)

OK ... so ... anyway, 

I'm looking to buy some rims for a 2015 Superfly 9.8. 
The bike will be here in November sometime so I want to take this time to research rims and hubs. I will be paying the LBS to build the wheels.
I am 170 Lbs, will be riding XC, no big jumps , logs, or rocks.
Thinking the regular duty 29er rims might be perfect for me.
Wanting to know how well these are holding up so far for the folks that have the regular rims, which fast tires are working good, and which XD Driver style hubs are recommended. 
Thanks for the feedback in advance.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have 3 sets of the regular rims and run the heck out of them. Ride about 3000 mtb miles a year. No problems at all. I use the Bontragger strips and this provides an awesome seal- super secure. The only problems I have had are with galvanic corrosion on the nipples and I am gradually converting to brass. One set has the DT 240 hubs and one set has the American Classic. Both are great. I prefer the American Classic, but would recommend either.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> I have 3 sets of the regular rims and run the heck out of them. Ride about 3000 mtb miles a year. No problems at all. I use the Bontragger strips and this provides an awesome seal- super secure. The only problems I have had are with galvanic corrosion on the nipples and I am gradually converting to brass. One set has the DT 240 hubs and one set has the American Classic. Both are great. I prefer the American Classic, but would recommend either.


Is the corrosion on the rim/nipple interface or toward the tire/sealant side?

I'm still curious about the idea of using washers, despite the good advice in this thread from pro wheel builders that they are not needed.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

rockman said:


> Is the corrosion on the rim/nipple interface or toward the tire/sealant side?
> 
> I'm still curious about the idea of using washers, despite the good advice in this thread from pro wheel builders that they are not needed.


Where the corrosion is occurring is not an indicator of whether or not washers will help.

The armchair-scientist theory that this is galvanic corrosion faces some pretty significant problems (_i.e._, it is likely *not* galvanic).

Regardless of the corrosion mechanism washers will not help.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

meltingfeather said:


> Where the corrosion is occurring is not an indicator of whether or not washers will help.
> 
> The armchair-scientist theory that this is galvanic corrosion faces some pretty significant problems (_i.e._, it is likely *not* galvanic).
> 
> Regardless of the corrosion mechanism washers will not help.


Good, because I already ordered my spokes and nipples. And the nauseating Atomik spam post made me push the pay button on Derby.:thumbsup:


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## DIABLO-V (Sep 19, 2014)

yourdaguy said:


> I have 3 sets of the regular rims and run the heck out of them. Ride about 3000 mtb miles a year. No problems at all. I use the Bontragger strips and this provides an awesome seal- super secure. The only problems I have had are with galvanic corrosion on the nipples and I am gradually converting to brass. One set has the DT 240 hubs and one set has the American Classic. Both are great. I prefer the American Classic, but would recommend either.


Thank you for this very helpful info. I might PM you for advice on hubs for my 2015 Trek SF 9.8 X1. (15MM QR front, 142X12 Through Axle rear with XD driver hub ).

I am not sure whether I will use washers or not. Contrary to some other opinions here, galvanic corrosion DOES exist between carbon and various metals. I work for an aircraft manufacturer and we have been dealing with this very real problem for years. Steel and aluminum don't play nice with each other or with carbon fiber. Cadmium plated steel does OK. Stainless does OK. No info on brass here since we don't use it.
Our jets build up heavy static charges in flight which aggravates the issue. Not sure whether a bike wheel builds up static, never seen any science on that. Moisture plays the biggest role. I need to see pictures of corroded nipples to be convinced to use washers even though I can accept that there is a possibility of corrosion.

Thanks for the info- I will get the regular rims.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/e8zlfnz12q3lhqx/AAAIne-3Jw1Ptrh0gWDH15bya

picture of year old nipples. I do wash my bikes fairly often (every 3rd ride or so) so I do tend to have a moist environment below my nipples due to seepage.

I don't think washers will help as much as brass nipples. You can check the galvanic properties of brass, it should play well between the carbon rim and stainless spokes.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

DIABLO-V said:


> I am not sure whether I will use washers or not. Contrary to some other opinions here, galvanic corrosion DOES exist between carbon and various metals. I work for an aircraft manufacturer and we have been dealing with this very real problem for years. Steel and aluminum don't play nice with each other or with carbon fiber. Cadmium plated steel does OK. Stainless does OK. No info on brass here since we don't use it.
> Our jets build up heavy static charges in flight which aggravates the issue. Not sure whether a bike wheel builds up static, never seen any science on that. Moisture plays the biggest role. I need to see pictures of corroded nipples to be convinced to use washers even though I can accept that there is a possibility of corrosion.
> 
> Thanks for the info- I will get the regular rims.


Galvanic corrosion *can* exist between carbon and other metals. Galvanic corrosion takes a recipe... dissimilar metals in conductive contact and an electrolyte for a secondary path. When the recipe is in place it happens, always.
I've pointed out some very basic facts that throw doubt on the galvanic theory here. If you can show that they are wrong or otherwise explain why the corrosion is galvanic, please do, as I'd be interested to hear what you've got.
If you just want to lay out your credentials and say that carbon-metal galvanic corrosion happens in certain circumstances, which is known already, that's not very interesting.
As I said though, stainless washers will not be a solution regardless of the corrosion mechanism.


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## Brisco Dog (Nov 5, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> I have 3 sets of the regular rims and run the heck out of them. Ride about 3000 mtb miles a year. No problems at all. I use the Bontragger strips and this provides an awesome seal- super secure. The only problems I have had are with galvanic corrosion on the nipples and I am gradually converting to brass. One set has the DT 240 hubs and one set has the American Classic. Both are great. I prefer the American Classic, but would recommend either.


What Bontrager strips are you using? I thought they wouldn't work on such wide rims as Derby's.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> I don't think washers will help as much as brass nipples. You can check the galvanic properties of brass, it should play well between the carbon rim and stainless spokes.


Dood... you just can't stop, can you?
Anyone who knows the very basics of corrosion can see you have no idea what you're talking about, yet you spew on. :nonod:


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## DIABLO-V (Sep 19, 2014)

meltingfeather said:


> Galvanic corrosion *can* exist between carbon and other metals. Galvanic corrosion takes a recipe... dissimilar metals in conductive contact and an electrolyte for a secondary path. When the recipe is in place it happens, always.
> I've pointed out some very basic facts that throw doubt on the galvanic theory here. If you can show that they are wrong or otherwise explain why the corrosion is galvanic, please do, as I'd be interested to hear what you've got.
> If you just want to lay out your credentials and say that carbon-metal galvanic corrosion happens in certain circumstances, which is known already, that's not very interesting.
> As I said though, stainless washers will not be a solution regardless of the corrosion mechanism.


I should have used the word "can" instead of "does" - you are correct.
I saw his photos - yes that is corrosion.
Not necessarily "galvanic" but there is no way to know (easily).
FWIW I wasn't trying to be interesting, just relating an experience with carbon/other metals.
Why not paint the nipples with polyurethane where they contact the rim ?
Seems that a paint that acts as a water barrier and insulator at the same time might cure it. Just a thought.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

DIABLO-V said:


> I should have used the word "can" instead of "does" - you are correct.
> I saw his photos - yes that is corrosion.
> Not necessarily "galvanic" but there is no way to know (easily).
> FWIW I wasn't trying to be interesting, just relating an experience with carbon/other metals.
> ...


You're pretty spot on. It is very difficult to say, yet you still see proclamations that the mechanism is galvanic repeated over and over... welcome to mtbr. :thumbsup:
Polyurethane (or any other insulator) isn't a bad idea... a bit tedious, but probably effective.
Or brass


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## DIABLO-V (Sep 19, 2014)

meltingfeather said:


> You're pretty spot on. It is very difficult to say, yet you still see proclamations that the mechanism is galvanic repeated over and over... welcome to mtbr. :thumbsup:
> Polyurethane (or any other insulator) isn't a bad idea... a bit tedious, but probably effective.
> Or brass


Since I'm new to spokes and nipples (but not metals) I hadda do some reading up.
There is a long history with alloy nipples corroding. Wheel builders use various lubricants/anti-seize/insulating/locking fluids to prevent both spokes from loosening AND to prevent galvanic corrosion between the SS spokes and alloy nipples. In that case the nipples "weld" to the threads of the spokes via galvanic corrosion. This is VERY LIKELY to happen if moisture is present and if no thread lube is used.
Brass nips are both stronger and less likely to corrode, but add about an ounce per wheel over alloy.
From seeing his photos I am not convinced there is anything going on between the carbon and the alloy nips. I am convinced it is MOST LIKELY caused by water and/or traces of tire sealant that got into the inner rim. Stan's sealant is supposedly bad with aluminum but I would think anything with water would be bad.

An accepted solution is to drip a little oil on each nipple after washing the bike to help stave off the corrosion.

After reading some of this stuff (see links below ) I will spec brass on my wheel build, but I don't think washers will do anything but add more weight.

Quoted directly from Sapim regarding alloy nipples :
*"However, alloy nipples are not recommended in wet or salty riding conditions due to corrosion potential."*

Getting your bike wet after a ride is the same as wet riding. Some soaps don't play nice with aluminum either. All in all - I'm glad this issue was brought up since I plan on getting my wheels wet, so I can know what to be wary of. BTW, Easton uses BRASS on all drive side spoke nipples but for strength reasons. Wheel builders like brass better, easier to work with during adjustments. 
So .... THREE CHEERS FOR NIPPLES ! 
I meant .......uh .. BRASS NIPPLES ! 

Sapim Aluminum Polyax Nipples - Wheelbuilder.com

Wheel Maintenance: Preventing Galvanic Corrosion » Durham Cycles

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/enve-wheel-nipple-corrosion-835853.html


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

DIABLO-V said:


> From seeing his photos I am not convinced there is anything going on between the carbon and the alloy nips. I am convinced it is MOST LIKELY caused by water and/or traces of tire sealant that got into the inner rim. Stan's sealant is supposedly bad with aluminum but I would think anything with water would be bad.


Once again, pretty spot on (the whole post).


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I'll leave it to you guys to decide what's galvanic, or not, but I'll say that those alloy nipples look no different from ones I've seen come out of alloy rims with with steel eyelets over the years. 
Moisture seems to be the biggest contributor I've noticed via lots of unscientific observation. 
My alloy nips in carbon rims show no problems, but conditions are dry, and they're only a year old....
And I don't mind rebuilding them with another blingy color if a problem arises  rather enjoy it, in fact.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

Here's my Derby HD 29er wheels.
They're laced up to eThirteen CHUB/LG1+ hubs (150mm rear) with DT Champion spokes and brass nipples.

This is my first foray into wide and carbon.
I've only had a handful of rides so far but I'm very impressed! 
Although, I don't have only new wheels I have an entirely new custom build bike. So, I'm smitten regardless!

I'm still running tubes because I haven't got around to finding valves long enough to fit the deep rims. I may wait until next season before I do that.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

ok: built a pair of the 35mm HD 29er rims. excellent communication and service in general...thanks Derby and ray!

the front is built to a SON dynamo hub - pretty narrow flanged - 3 cross with revolution spokes, spoke prep and alu nips. calcualtion was fine based on supplied ERD. wheel build was a bit tricky. i decided to omit lube between the alu nips and the rim nipple hole - the friction generated as it came up to tension was noticeable and i ended up damaging a couple of the nipples and needign to replace them. otherwise it came true with well balanced tension. with the rear, i built it 2 cross with revolutions, spoke prep and alu nips to a 150mm DT 350 hub. in this case i learned from my mistake and used a light syntetic oil between the nipple and rim. no problemo! super easy build. 

also: thanks to mikesee for the advice on spoke arrangement....very happy with this light wheelset....will mount up my knards and go ride....


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

refreshed the stans in my tires today.

I found I could easily unseat my Racing Ralph 2.35 non snakeskin version by hand...

but had a hell of a time trying to unseat the bead on my Racing Ralph 2.25 snakeskin version. The thicker sidewall really seems to have made it tougher.


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## Crevello (Feb 1, 2013)

Has anyone else had a lot of trouble trying to mount Continental Trail King 29x2.2's to a set of Derby rims? I managed to get one mounted after breaking 2 tire levers and have broken another 6 trying to mount the other tire without success. I've tried soap and water and 2 of the levers were the Park Tool nylon coated steel core levers which broke off at the tip. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

Crevello said:


> Has anyone else had a lot of trouble trying to mount Continental Trail King 29x2.2's to a set of Derby rims? I managed to get one mounted after breaking 2 tire levers and have broken another 6 trying to mount the other tire without success. I've tried soap and water and 2 of the levers were the Park Tool nylon coated steel core levers which broke off at the tip. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Not on a Derby rim but a LB 33mm hookless rim, I was have a heck of a time getting a tire mounted so I just put the tire on another alum rim with a tube over night to stretch out the bead a bit.
It mounted up easier the next day on the carbon rim. I have found that this has helped on any tire to set up tubeless if they are giving you trouble.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

Crevello said:


> Has anyone else had a lot of trouble trying to mount Continental Trail King 29x2.2's to a set of Derby rims? I managed to get one mounted after breaking 2 tire levers and have broken another 6 trying to mount the other tire without success. I've tried soap and water and 2 of the levers were the Park Tool nylon coated steel core levers which broke off at the tip. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


is your tape too wide and covering the bead area? I cant imagine how youre using levers to mount the tire. Filling with air alone wont seat the beads?


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

SandSpur said:


> is your tape too wide and covering the bead area? I cant imagine how youre using levers to mount the tire. Filling with air alone wont seat the beads?


I think he means actually trying to get the tire into the rim. As in the tire is too tight and won't "slide in" inside the rim.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

fefillo said:


> I think he means actually trying to get the tire into the rim. As in the tire is too tight and won't "slide in" inside the rim.


ah, youre probably right.


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## Crevello (Feb 1, 2013)

Yeah, I was having trouble getting the last 3" of the the bead over the edge when trying to mount the tire. I am using 21mm tape which should be narrow enough but in the end I was able to get the tire on using soapy water and by bare hands. Good times!


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Crevello said:


> Yeah, I was having trouble getting the last 3" of the the bead over the edge when trying to mount the tire. I am using 21mm tape which should be narrow enough but in the end I was able to get the tire on using soapy water and by bare hands. Good times!


Next time... Make sure the already mounted side of the tire is inside the middle channel of the rim vs on the outside edge. The center channel is a smaller diameter and will give you a bit more playing room to manhandle the tire into submission while getting the second side mounted.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Any downsides to a rim with Derby like width for riding mainly XC terrain?

It seems more logical to shoot for 23-25mm width for the type of riding I do, but the price, durability and looks of the Derby has me interested. I have no proof or reason, but it would seem a wheel this wide might ride a bit ponderously at lower speeds. Again, no reason to think that....just a hunch.


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## AOK (Jan 25, 2004)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Any downsides to a rim with Derby like width for riding mainly XC terrain?
> 
> It seems more logical to shoot for 23-25mm width for the type of riding I do, but the price, durability and looks of the Derby has me interested. I have no proof or reason, but it would seem a wheel this wide might ride a bit ponderously at lower speeds. Again, no reason to think that....just a hunch.


The wider rim doesn't make things "ponderous" at all. They roll just as good / fast as any narrower rim I have ever used.

Been on Derbys for over a year now with no complaints.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Excellent. Thanks


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

They have been great, I can't think of a downside.


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## SandSpur (Mar 19, 2013)

the downside is if you have more bikes.. youre going to want to buy more sets for them too


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Leaving this thread now....before I convince myself that my FLOW EX's need to be replaced.

*Get back in the wallet where you belong....credit card!!*


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

Funny...I threw my wallet at this thread and my new rims should arrive today for my Tallboy. 

Cheers,
Mike


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

jonshonda said:


> Leaving this thread now....before I convince myself that my FLOW EX's need to be replaced.
> 
> *Get back in the wallet where you belong....credit card!!*


They do, I went from FlowEX to Derby- Big difference.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

TwoTone said:


> They do, I went from FlowEX to Derby- Big difference.


Lies....all lies!! Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie.


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

My new Derby rims were just built up yesterday. I will be coming off ArchEx rims...looking forward to when my ribs are heal enough for me to ride again.

Cheers,
Mike


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Narrowed it down to this build. Any feedback appreciated. I really wanted nice hubs (I9 or Project 321, specifically), but the increase in cost ($400) makes getting Derbys unobtainable for my budget. I think I'll get more gain from the rim anyway.

Rims: Front Derby XC, Rear Derby HD (recommended by Ray)
Hubs: BHS 180/270 (Black)
Spokes: Sapim Laser (Black)
Nips: Sapim Alloy (Blue to match the Niner RIP RDO)

Will probably have LaceMine29.com build er up.

I weight 170lbs ready to ride, ride mainly XC here in VT on a Niner RIP 9 RDO with annual trips to CO/UT to ride bigger terrain. I also ride 50mi events 2-3x a year.

The Nox rims are enticing with their 200g savings, but the extra $300/pr seems better spent elsewhere on my Rip 9 RDO...like a Pike.


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## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

Not sure were you are getting a 200g saving?

You need to compare the Nox Farlow 29 rim (35mm external width) to the Derby rim = 80g saving (over XC\HD layup)

Sorry if i've got that wrong?


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Jamie_MTB said:


> Not sure were you are getting a 200g saving?
> 
> You need to compare the Nox Farlow 29 rim (35mm external width) to the Derby rim = 80g saving (over XC\HD layup)
> 
> Sorry if i've got that wrong?


No, you're right. I was thinking I'd go with the Teocalli if I went with Nox. Not apples to apples, but losing 3mm in width to drop close to 200g (more like 170g) is something I'd live with if I went that route.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

3 riders + 3 bikes + 3 sets of Derby rims = one great day.


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## adumesny (Apr 11, 2009)

- deleted


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

adumesny said:


> if not, who is and how can we buy them directly from the manufacturer ?
> 
> their rims at $180 are not as good a value as their wheelset at $580-600 when you consider hubs+bladed Spokes+nipple+labor.


If you want to discuss non-Derby carbon rims why don't you post in the appropriate thread?


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Has anyone built a set of these with DT revolution spokes? Do you notice any flex?

I'm roughly 210 geared up. 

I was planning to build my set 32 hole with revolution spokes.

I'm coming off enve xc 28 with bladed spokes and never noticed them flex.

thanks


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

BJF said:


> Has anyone built a set of these with DT revolution spokes? Do you notice any flex?
> 
> I'm roughly 210 geared up.
> 
> ...


Many, if not most, of the 650b builds I see are using similarly light spokes... A lot of guys using Sapim CX-Rays which are very light. Mine are wheelsmith's now defunct equivalent to the Revo, XL14. They are bomber stiff wheels. 
If you're happy with the stiffness of 28 spoke Enve XC rims, 32 Derbys should be fine even with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. If in doubt you could opt for DT Super Comps with only a very small weight penalty.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

doismellbacon said:


> Many, if not most, of the 650b builds I see are using similarly light spokes... A lot of guys using Sapim CX-Rays which are very light. Mine are wheelsmith's now defunct equivalent to the Revo, XL14. They are bomber stiff wheels.
> If you're happy with the stiffness of 28 spoke Enve XC rims, 32 Derbys should be fine even with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. If in doubt you could opt for DT Super Comps with only a very small weight penalty.


32 hole? What do you weigh?

So you basically built using the equivalent of the dt spokes.

I know I'm over thinking this.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

@BJF yep i have a front 3 cross with revolutions 29er 32 hole to a SON hub and a rear 150mm dt swiss 350 hub 32 hole 2 cross with revos: all good. nice wheels...stiff as needed and no issues.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

BJF said:


> 32 hole? What do you weigh?
> 
> So you basically built using the equivalent of the dt spokes.
> 
> I know I'm over thinking this.


Yes, Wheelsmith XL14's are like Revo's. Mine are 650b,32 / 3x. I'm 175 lbs RTR. My 225 lb gear-destroying riding buddy has thrashed them a few times too with good results.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks!


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

dRjOn said:


> ok: built a pair of the 35mm HD 29er rims. excellent communication and service in general...thanks Derby and ray!
> 
> the front is built to a SON dynamo hub - pretty narrow flanged - 3 cross with revolution spokes, spoke prep and alu nips. calcualtion was fine based on supplied ERD. wheel build was a bit tricky. i decided to omit lube between the alu nips and the rim nipple hole - the friction generated as it came up to tension was noticeable and i ended up damaging a couple of the nipples and needign to replace them. otherwise it came true with well balanced tension. with the rear, i built it 2 cross with revolutions, spoke prep and alu nips to a 150mm DT 350 hub. in this case i learned from my mistake and used a light syntetic oil between the nipple and rim. no problemo! super easy build.
> 
> also: thanks to mikesee for the advice on spoke arrangement....very happy with this light wheelset....will mount up my knards and go ride....


Hey, just saw your post and was wondering why you went 2x in the back? I'm considering doing a build with Revo spokes and 350 hub "soon".

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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

fefillo: i used 2 cross because i wanted the lightest build i could reasonably achieve and because i have a set of enve wheels 2 cross that work well. my understanding of the enve is that the nipple holes are optimised for a 2 cross build - ie angled. also, the 150mm hub is dishless - which means the tension is even both sides and therefore the wheel is pretty strong. i probably wouldnt have gone 2 cross on both sides with a 135mm/dished wheel build…the wheels i built for my road bike with deep DT swiss alu rims and revo spokes had the rear 2 cross/3 cross - that worked nicely….


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Should have my 29" DH 32 hole Derby's by Friday. Going on my 2013 Rumblefish Pro project. Building with DT 350's and yet undecided on exact spoke/nipple combo. More than likely DT something. Looking forward to seeing what my 2.35 Hans Dampf's do on the 35mm. Ray has been very helpful through the process of figuring what would be best for what I'm trying to get out of this bike, and offered a few good options. At 240# riding weight, and little AZ rock gardens, I should be good to go. A little over kill perhaps, but I have been known to take a BAD line and get sloppy a time or two,three........... Sometimes I forget I'm Old. Those are the fun days though...


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

AZ Native said:


> Should have my 29" DH 32 hole Derby's by Friday. Going on my 2013 Rumblefish Pro project. Building with DT 350's and yet undecided on exact spoke/nipple combo. More than likely DT something. Looking forward to seeing what my 2.35 Hans Dampf's do on the 35mm. Ray has been very helpful through the process of figuring what would be best for what I'm trying to get out of this bike, and offered a few good options. At 240# riding weight, and little AZ rock gardens, I should be good to go. A little over kill perhaps, but I have been known to take a BAD line and get sloppy a time or two,three........... Sometimes I forget I'm Old. Those are the fun days though...


Good first post AZ, And welcome! Just keep riding and enjoying! Your never to old!!!

EDIT: I would suggest using brass niipples on your wheels build.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

So far, since I purchused the bike gently used last October I've added XT 2x10 (38/24) crankset,XTR derailleurs and shifters(Love the double up shift), Bontrager RXL carbon bars, new XT cog set, new KMC chain(tried a new XTR chain 1st-like the KMC better),XTR race pedals,Northshore grips, Pure V TI rail seat, new dura-ace cable sets, serviced all da FOX stuff, Schwalbe Hans Damph 2.3 Trail Stars set up tubeless with too much Orange seal , and a Park PRS-25 repair stand to keep it in shape. The new wheelset will almost finish this one up. Still wanna try ditching the DRCV cartridge in the fork for a standard Float. We'll see. I'm happy so far with the DRCV shock. Is it Friday yet damnit ?


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Thanks for the welcome blcman. Im currently leaning towards brass. But damn the Blue would look cool. Got a few days to sort it all out yet. Hope I didn't divert this thread too much with my posts. I'll post an "After Derby Rim install" update after my 1st ride on them next weekend.


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

AZ Native said:


> Thanks blcman. I leaning towards brass. But damn the Blue would look cool. Got a few days to sort it out yet.


I have some Nextie 35mm 27.5 rims on Hadley rear and DMR front hub built using black anno nipples and have no problems yet in over a year, BUT I'm only 180lbs geared.
I used brass on my 38mm DH rims though for the peace of mind. Brass doesn't add that much weight for the strength you get. Have fun deciding!


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

I decided to go with black DT 14/15/14 Competition Spokes and silver 14 mm DT Brass nips, built 3 cross F & R. The spokes all the way around came in @ 281mm. Mike at "Mikes Bike Chalet " and I double checked all measurements and the math and all is good to go. Spokes are back ordered from his source until this Thursday. Mike is hoping to build the wheels Friday. He's kinda stoked to see these done as well, and really liked the way the Derby hoops looked so far. If all goes well, first test ride will be Sunday either at Hawes or K-Trail.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

AZ Native said:


> I decided to go with black DT 14/15/14 Competition Spokes and silver 14 mm DT Brass nips. The spokes all the way around came in @ 281mm.


Might be worthwhile mentioning your hub details so that other people can use your experience as a reference point in the future.

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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Good Point. I went with DT Swiss 350 "DISC BRAKE IS FW & RW", both with the 6 bolt rotor option. 12X142mm T/A for the rear & 15/100mm T/A for the front. Unfortunately I didn't save the actual measurements off the hubs when we were doing the calculations. I'll report back on how the build turns out and if there were any issues or changes. Thanks fefillo ! Also, a friend is having a set of 27.5 x 40mm Derby's ( DH-Rear,AM-Front) built up on CK hubs with Sapim spokes/nipples this week by another builder, for his 2015 Trance SX. Those are set to be done this week as well. Should be a fun ride this weekend.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Wheels are built and all is swapped over. Wheel build went perfect and tire seating was very easy. Ended up with 282mm spokes all around with 12mm brass nipples. I like the way the 12mm nipples ended up looking actually. I now have understated nipples. Ha. My tires got BIG looking for sure. My quick asphalt test gave a very evident change in sound of knobbies hitting the road. Reminds me of an old Honda 185 3 wheeler with ballon tires sound. There is DEFINETELY more rubber hitting the road. Love it. I'll get some pictures up soon. Doesn't want to upload my pix for some reason. Trail test Sunday hopefully.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)




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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

And BTW, wheels lost 4.3 oz for the set. Wasn't looking to drop weight , but was a nice surprise. Still 4 oz above 30# for the bike. But until I drop 15-20 more pounds off my fat ass; ain't gonna be worrying about grams, let alone ounces. That being said, 29.-----something would sound good I guess.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Had a great 1st ride today on the new wheelset. Bike felt different for sure. At 241 riding weight today, I ran 26/23 psi and man did it hook up. Steering is a small bit harder to initiate , but obeys commands much better overall. I DEFINETELY noticed how much easier it was to pick a line and hold it through some light to medium chunk. Cornering was very predictable and washouts were I normally do were rock solid today. Trail was not that tough overall, but it's one I'm quite familiar with and felt it was the best one for seeing if I noticed any difference. Felt like I was on a different bike. In a good way. Definetely seems to be more responsive as far a handling goes. Climbing seemed about the same; kinda sluggish as always with this bike/rider combination so far, but traction on a couple kinda loose sections seemed better possibly. No issues. Just grind it out 1/4 mile climbs. Gonna hit a trail next weekend that'll push everything a bit more. Can't wait.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

. Installed the 54 tooth ratchet last night. Holy Pissed off Bees.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Hi, I posted this in the Giant forum but maybe this is a better place. I have a 2014 Trance 29 X0 and upgrading my wheels to Derby rims and want to run Nobby Nic 2.35 F&R. Any issues with rear clearance? right now stock wheels and 2.35 NN front and 2.25 rear, no issues. What do you think?


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

AZ Native said:


> View attachment 967432
> . Installed the 54 tooth ratchet last night. Holy Pissed off Bees.


Where can you even buy the 54?


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Your local TREK/Bontrager dealer should be able to special order through Bontrager as a replacement part. They are supposed to be part of the propritory "Rapid Drive" hub that DT Swiss is building for Bontrager for some of their wheelsets. My local shop got them in a day for me. They seem overpriced though........ $105 for the set. They are very precise. They are cool; but OUCHY !!!!! I used CAT Hydraulic Oil Additive to lube them as a test. I'll be checking up on them every few rides to see how the oil is hanging in there for awhile. Easy enough to do for sure. Basically a super slippery , about 60-70wt oil additive that I've been around for years. We tested them at work today for RC hardness out of curiosity, and came in at Rc 61. That's hard ! Chrome is around Rc70 if I remember. Wear shouldn't be an issue as long as they're kept reasonably clean I'm hoping. I can see why many don't recommend grease though. The engagement depth is very shallow on these,(x 54 though) and can see the spring force possibly not being enough to push the grease out of the bottom of the teeth possibly causing point overload and chipping. Time will tell. BTW, Sorry for getting off topic here. Back to *DERBY RIMS *!!!!!!!


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Good post. Curious to see how they hold up. I have been meaning to upgrade my 18t rings for a while now. Actually, $105 isn't terrible compared to the $80+ the 36t ones seem to sell for.



AZ Native said:


> Your local TREK/Bontrager dealer should be able to special order through Bontrager as a replacement part. They are supposed to be part of the propritory "Rapid Drive" hub that DT Swiss is building for Bontrager for some of their wheelsets. My local shop got them in a day for me. They seem overpriced though........ $105 for the set. They are very precise. They are cool; but OUCHY !!!!! I used CAT Hydraulic Oil Additive to lube them as a test. I'll be checking up on them every few rides to see how the oil is hanging in there for awhile. Easy enough to do for sure. Basically a super slippery , about 60-70wt oil additive that I've been around for years. We tested them at work today for RC hardness out of curiosity, and came in at Rc 61. That's hard ! Chrome is around Rc70 if I remember. Wear shouldn't be an issue as long as they're kept reasonably clean I'm hoping. I can see why many don't recommend grease though. The engagement depth is very shallow on these,(x 54 though) and can see the spring force possibly not being enough to push the grease out of the bottom of the teeth possibly causing point overload and chipping. Time will tell. BTW, Sorry for getting off topic here. Back to *DERBY RIMS *!!!!!!!


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

hey Quadzilla. I just measured my 2.35 Hans Dampf on the 35mm Derby at 40 psi and got 2.510". I know it's not a KNic, but if I recall my last Nic was just a touch narrower. But that was on old rims.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks for the reply and effort measuring for me, I think I will have plenty of room just trying to avoid mistakes. I am working with my LBS so kinda on their shoulders to make sure it is the right choice as far as fit. I think I have the legs to pull this tire basically just trying to ad a little bit of ground clearance and cush riding the rocks here around Tahoe.....


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

No problem. Been meaning to measure them anyway. I wasn't expecting 2.5" honestly. A little bigger than I expected. Let us know how they turn out. Have you built the Derby Wheels yet ?


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

AZ Native said:


> No problem. Been meaning to measure them anyway. I wasn't expecting 2.5" honestly. A little bigger than I expected. Let us know how they turn out. Have you built the Derby Wheels yet ?


My LBS is handling the whole project, actually my wife and riding partner is getting a set too but with different tires. No real timeline set but parts are ordered.


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## Lev (Oct 12, 2004)

AZ Native said:


> View attachment 967432
> . Installed the 54 tooth ratchet last night. Holy Pissed off Bees.


Why the heck doesn't DT just include these stock with the 240s? I'm currently building up my Derby set and I've been going back and forth between the 240s and Chris Kings. The Kings are more expensive, but it all starts to even out when you add in the ratchet upgrade. Still looking for deals.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Because then they couldn't get another $100 out oh you. 

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## AOK (Jan 25, 2004)

bigdrunk said:


> Actually, $105 isn't terrible compared to the $80+ the 36t ones seem to sell for.


Glad I upgraded my hubs to the 36t ratchets back when they were $30 or so.

I thought the 36t was an awesome economical upgrade when they were first introduced. Not sure what happened that resulted in the price going so high.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

3 good rides in and I'm really liking these wheels. A very noticeable improvement in overall handling. Mostly in rock gardens. I keep waiting to get bumped off my line going through them, but it's on rails it seems. There were a lot of times I was waiting for the rear tire to side slip a rock as often happens, but this only happened twice so far. The bike IS HOOKED UP. No doubt. I'm ditching my Double XT 38/24 this weekend, going back to a Triple Bash/32/24. I just can't get used to the 38 on the front. Too much front shifting for me.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Had my first ride on these beasts.
240 center lock hubs and am rims.

18 psi in the front and 22 in the back. Kinda awesome.


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## AZ Native (Jan 12, 2015)

Looks great ! Just took mine on ride #6 today and am getting used to them. NO complaints so far.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

BJF said:


> Had my first ride on these beasts.


Tell us what you noticed/felt!!


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

So I built my AM wheels with revolution spokes. I weigh 200 and this might have been a mistake. Wheels felt a bit dead riding so I brought them to a shop and as it turns out my tension is super low. The guy who built them for me didnt go high enough. I am planning to retention but am wondering if I should have gone with a different spoke. I could rebuild. Should I have gone DT comp? 14/15/14 with my weight?


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

BJF said:


> So I built my AM wheels with revolution spokes. I weigh 200 and this might have been a mistake. Wheels felt a bit dead riding so I brought them to a shop and as it turns out my tension is super low. The guy who built them for me didnt go high enough. I am planning to retention but am wondering if I should have gone with a different spoke. I could rebuild. Should I have gone DT comp? 14/15/14 with my weight?


Dead, super low, high enough... Doesn't mean anything. Give us numbers!

What kind of tension (in kgf) did he put on the spokes? Are they at max? Why do you think you need different spokes? Usually max spoke tension is driven by the rim (weakest component), so going with a different spoke won't do you any good. Sounds like you have an improperly tensioned wheel and that can be fixed by retentioning to a higher/proper tension closer to the max recommended of your weakest component.

From Derby site: Recommended max spoke tension: 105 to 125KgF

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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Well my wheels are low on tension. I think like 55.. I can fix that but I still wonder if 200 pounds is too much for revolutions.

I guess it's two issues.


I guess once re tensioned I will see if they feel stiffer.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Your weight is not a problem with those spokes if the wheel is properly built. In fact, if the wheel is built correctly any spokes should work.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Why did you think they would work fine originally? What changed? Retentioning is free/cheap. Go that route first and then worry about rebuilding if needed. 

A properly tensioned wheel should be able to handle your 200-lbs with any spoke no problem for a while. 

I'm curious... What makes you think thicker spokes will be better?

At 55kgf, that's like only 110-lbs of tension... At 200-lbs, your spokes are probably relaxing and stretching a little bit under your own weight as you ride along. This will lead to fatigue somewhere in the spoke. At a proper tension, you minimize this regardless of spoke selection. 


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Some reason I though the thinner spokes made for a more flexible wheel even at tension.

Wheels are being retentioned now while I diet.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

I think it's true that it's easier to stretch a thinner wire than a thicker one. But that only matters if you overcome the initial tension of the spoke. On a properly built/tensioned wheel, you should not be overcoming the spoke tension on a regular basis. 

Someone please chime in if I've misspoken. 


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Sounds good. Hopefully tension will fix it.

Thanks


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## smithcreek (Nov 27, 2012)

I built up the same rims with revos also a few weeks back and the tension was dead on max. Once I mounted a TR Maxxis Ardent Race the tension dropped significantly. No different than any other wheel with an aluminum rim which surprised me a bit, I thought it would hold it's tension more. So, I would not blame it on the builder if you are measuring with a tire mounted after being built without one. The advice I was given by an expert wheel builder is leave it alone, don't bother re-tensioning. Makes sense if you figure that all the pre-built wheel sets are tensioned without tires and in general hold up just fine.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

smithcreek said:


> I built up the same rims with revos also a few weeks back and the tension was dead on max. Once I mounted a TR Maxxis Ardent Race the tension dropped significantly. No different than any other wheel with an aluminum rim which surprised me a bit, I thought it would hold it's tension more. So, I would not blame it on the builder if you are measuring with a tire mounted after being built without one. The advice I was given by an expert wheel builder is leave it alone, don't bother re-tensioning. Makes sense if you figure that all the pre-built wheel sets are tensioned without tires and in general hold up just fine.


Fixing the tension wont be an issue for me. The problem is at my weight how quick will the spokes fatigue.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

BJF said:


> Fixing the tension wont be an issue for me. The problem is at my weight how quick will the spokes fatigue.


Worst case, if this were to happen, spokes will not go all at once. You may have a spoke fail and if you were to repair that one, then another one may soon follow. You can always ride out with 1-2 broken spokes. At that point, then you may chose to rebuild with something different (and/or with different builder).


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Probably going to rebuild now with competition spokes. I don't blame my builder for the spoke choice. That was all me. The tension was his fault but not a big deal.

My last wheels were prebuilt enve so there was less thought involved. I would go bladed spokes but probably not worth the weight savings to cost ratio.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Bladed spokes don't offer much more weight savings vs your revs. They are easier to build with because you can prevent windup pretty easy. 


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

I wasn't thinking compared to revolutions but against comps.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BJF said:


> I wasn't thinking compared to revolutions but against comps.


His point is that your you can have the same weight and performance of bladed without the cost if you get Revos, which changes your weight savings to cost ratio.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Aren't the bladed less likely to fatigue that the revolutions under my weight?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BJF said:


> Aren't the bladed less likely to fatigue that the revolutions under my weight?


Nope


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Why?

Bladed spokes are built from normal spokes which are then flattened in the mid section. Due to the additional machining processes, bladed spoke can be a bit stronger in the mid section than the spokes they were built from. 

Most spokes fail at the threaded section / nipple interface, or at the j-bend. Both of this sections are the same for equivalent bladed and round spokes. 

To be honest and blunt, I think you are wasting your money and over reacting by choosing to rebuild as a first reaction. Probably the same kind of behavior that drove you to pick Revs in the first place then not like them. Pay some guy $40 to retension / retrue your current wheels and see how they feel. If they fail, it will be miles and months from now. 


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BJF said:


> So I built my AM wheels with revolution spokes. I weigh 200 and this might have been a mistake. Wheels felt a bit dead riding so I brought them to a shop and as it turns out my tension is super low. The guy who built them for me didnt go high enough. I am planning to retention but am wondering if I should have gone with a different spoke. I could rebuild. Should I have gone DT comp? 14/15/14 with my weight?


Your problem was build quality not spoke choice. Fix the known problem. Anything else is wasting your time and money.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Why does enve use them and have no weight limits? I had enve wheels for a few years with no issue.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

BJF said:


> Why does enve use them and have no weight limits? I had enve wheels for a few years with no issue.


No one but you has said there is a weight limit on anything. Where do you get this from?

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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

DT Swiss technical support told me the revolutions will fatique much quicker under my weight than comps and if it was up to them they would rebuild the wheels.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

I guess you should tell ENVE to call DT so that they can have all their wheels rebuilt with Comps too. 

Believe whoever you want and proceed accordingly. Good luck with all your future cycling endeavors. 


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

You don't have to be dickish about it. Im just trying to understand what the best way to go is with these wheels. 

My initial issue was tension but now I wonder if the spokes were a mistake to begin with at my weight so I'm trying to understand the differences.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BJF said:


> DT Swiss technical support told me the revolutions will fatique much quicker under my weight than comps and if it was up to them they would rebuild the wheels.


Let me guess... with a set of new DT Swiss spokes. Tech reps may or may not know what they're talking about, unfortunately.
I weigh what you do and have been building wheels for myself and many others in our weight class with Revos for years without issue.
Sapim's marketing figure supposedly based on a test shows higher fatigue life for the Laser (their version of the Revo) vs. the Race (Comp).
The only reason why you're even going here is because you got a crappy wheel build in the first place. Fix that before making any more deci$ion$. Unless you just feel like blowing more money


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks Meltingfeather. That makes sense. 

I will try bringing them to tension first. I guess I should also ask how long it would even take to fatigue the spokes anyway. 

The DT Swiss guy I assume didn't care one way or another. I just want to make sure I end up with great wheels. Everyone loves their derbys so I just want to enjoy them as well. If the revolutions are going to be an issue I rather fix it now.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

BJF said:


> If the revolutions are going to be an issue I rather fix it now.


They won't, assuming you get the crappy wheel build quality issue fixed.


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## 2TurnersNotEnough (Aug 31, 2004)

BJF said:


> Why does enve use them and have no weight limits? I had enve wheels for a few years with no issue.


I've owned 3 sets of Enve MTB wheels, and they all used Aerolites. Which are 


DT Swiss website said:


> The lightest strongest spoke in our line-up."


and certainly the most expensive. So we're not quite comparing the same spokes.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

2TurnersNotEnough said:


> and certainly the most expensive. So we're not quite comparing the same spokes.


That's marketing copy... the justification they provide for you to spend more money for a spoke with the same weight and performance as another, less expensive spoke in the line-up.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Some reason I thought bladed spokes fatigued less.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

BJF said:


> Some reason I thought bladed spokes fatigued less.


Assuming the same material, and cross sectional area, they'll have the same strength/durability. I.e., Revs = Aerolites, Lasers = CX-Rays.

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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Assuming the same material, and cross sectional area, they'll have the same strength/durability. I.e., Revs = Aerolites, Lasers = CX-Rays.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think bladed spokes have different properties than rounded spokes in the flat section. The wire has been cold worked thus changing/modifying the material properties (a lot? a little? I don't know, but definitely different). Also the new cross sectional area is different and potentially smaller. Both of these factor will yield a different tension/stretch profile.

Now, the round parts of the bladed spokes should be the same as the equivalent round spokes, and that's typically the weak point were spokes fail.

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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

fefillo said:


> I think bladed spokes have different properties than rounded spokes in the flat section. The wire has been cold worked thus changing/modifying the material properties (a lot? a little? I don't know, but definitely different). Also the new cross sectional area is different and potentially smaller. Both of these factor will yield a different tension/stretch profile.


Why speculate wildly when you have no knowledge on the topic?
Round butted spokes are cold worked too and cold work does not change the atomic forces that are responsible for elastic behavior in steel.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

meltingfeather said:


> Why speculate wildly when you have no knowledge on the topic?
> Round butted spokes are cold worked too and cold work does not change the atomic forces that are responsible for elastic behavior in steel.


@MF,

Maybe because you don't hold a monopoly on spewing half truths, partial information and cherry picking data to benefit your points around here. Specially to reply back with incomplete, snarky Cheshire-cat type comments as you so often do. Others can do that too.

"Metals and alloys with a high melting point can typically be strengthened through the process of cold working." Effect of cold working on the mechanical properties of an austenitic stainless steel | Fine Tubes

Also in more detail here in words: 
[...in a cold-worked material...] Upon application of stresses just beyond the yield strength of the non-cold-worked material, a cold-worked material will continue to deform using the only mechanism available: elastic deformation, the regular scheme of stretching or compressing of electrical bonds (without dislocation motion) continues to occur, and the modulus of elasticity is unchanged. Eventually the stress is great enough to overcome the strain-field interactions and plastic deformation resumes.

And same in graphical form:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...2px-Rock_plasticity_compression_plain.svg.png
"For work hardening materials the yield stress increases with increasing plastic deformation. The strain can be decomposed into a recoverable elastic strain (\varepsilon_e) and an inelastic strain (\varepsilon_p). The stress at initial yield is \sigma_0."

Work hardening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My take away from this is that through cold working, the stress/strain characteristics of a material are shifted to the right, thus increasing the yield strength and making for a longer elastic behavior line.

I look forward to being corrected and furthering my knowledge if I've misunderstood these concepts and/or their applicability to the specific issue at hand (ie potential material properties differences between round and bladed bike spokes_.

- F


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

fefillo said:


> @MF,
> 
> Maybe because you don't hold a monopoly on spewing half truths, partial information and cherry picking data to benefit your points around here. Specially to reply back with incomplete, snarky Cheshire-cat type comments as you so often do. Others can do that too.


whoa, bitter much?
Didn't realize you were carrying so much baggage.
If you can, let's stick to the materials science.


fefillo said:


> "Metals and alloys with a high melting point can typically be strengthened through the process of cold working." Effect of cold working on the mechanical properties of an austenitic stainless steel | Fine Tubes


This is interesting, because I can not tell what the cartoon elongation curve is showing. Where on the x-axis would your knowledge have you place bladed spokes relative to round butted spokes?
The work I have seen on elasticity and cold work show very different results, depending on circumstances, including _*decreases *_in Young's Modulus, though all only very slight (immaterial). Example



fefillo said:


> Also in more detail here in words:
> [...in a cold-worked material...] Upon application of stresses just beyond the yield strength of the non-cold-worked material, a cold-worked material will continue to deform using the only mechanism available: elastic deformation, the regular scheme of stretching or compressing of electrical bonds (without dislocation motion) continues to occur, and *the modulus of elasticity is unchanged*. Eventually the stress is great enough to overcome the strain-field interactions and plastic deformation resumes.


my emphasis



fefillo said:


> And same in graphical form:
> (fixed your tags)
> "For work hardening materials the yield stress increases with increasing plastic deformation. The strain can be decomposed into a recoverable elastic strain (\varepsilon_e) and an inelastic strain (\varepsilon_p). The stress at initial yield is \sigma_0."


What is that figure for rocks supposed to show relative to your point?
It is this sort of citation that tells me you are wiki fishing for stuff to post rather than that you have working knowledge of the principles at play here.
Wait... do you think that figure for rocks shows a stress/strain curve "shifted to the right" and that it is somehow related to cold work? Have you ever had a class on materials or cracked a book or spent any more time than this morning studying figures like that?



fefillo said:


> Work hardening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> My take away from this is that through cold working, the stress/strain characteristics of a material are shifted to the right, thus increasing the yield strength and making for a longer elastic behavior line.


I think this is because you don't understand the context here. Cold work does increase the yield point (the stress at which the curve breaks over to plastic deformation - failure), but spokes are not loaded at anywhere near this stress value, so whether it is 10% higher or 50% higher does not afford any benefit in the bicycle wheel application.
The links you provided (except for the inexplicable cartoon figure) all say what any materials scientist knows: cold work does not materially change elasticity. What that means is that the cross sectional area of the spoke dictates it's behavior in a wheel.
Work on fatigue resistance and cold work does not lead to any defined relationship.



fefillo said:


> I look forward to being corrected and furthering my knowledge if I've misunderstood these concepts and/or their applicability to the specific issue at hand (ie potential material properties differences between round and bladed bike spokes_.
> 
> - F


The sarcasm is oozing out of your ears. :nonod:


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

meltingfeather said:


> whoa, bitter much?
> Didn't realize you were carrying so much baggage.
> If you can, let's stick to the materials science.
> 
> ...


Genuinely appreciate the reply.

So, I do not know where on any of the charts round spokes or blades spokes specifically fall as you well know these are just generic charts that obviously are just meant to illustrate a concept and not as means to calculate absolute values for any specific material or application.

What I can do is use some of my existing knowledge to try to make educated guesses and deductions.

Some of my assumptions and logical progression in this case are: 
a) Round spokes have already undergone some amount of cold-working which modified the initial wire stock properties, bringing its yield from σ0 to σ1
b) Bladed spokes start their life as round spokes
c) There is an incremental amount of cold-work to go from round to bladed
d) This incremental amount of cold-work must have an effect on the final material properties of the bladed spoke bringing σ1 to σ2.
e) Whether σ2 is 1%, 5% or 200% higher than σ1, I do not know.

Did we make it together this far? If not, please let me know where the facts / concepts / logic breaks.

From that, can I then deduct that at the same built spoke tension, the bladed spoke would be a bit further away from its material yield point? Then, since it's further away from its yield point, it would sit lower in it's fatigue life curve and have more theoretical fatigue cycles to failure?

I apologize for my references selection, I've thrown away my mechanics of materials and metallurgy text books a long time ago, but happen to carry the whole internet in my pocket at all times. Also, I could not access the link you provided (required logon), so please excuse if any of the points above are clarified / explained in there.

My last comment was honest. I pride myself in being a life long learner and I recognize you have a lot of valuable information and experience, that you often provide for the benefit of plenty of people in this forum. I may not often agree or appreciate your delivery, but hey... I tend to piss off plenty of people too from time to time.

- F


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

fefillo said:


> Genuinely appreciate the reply.


Likewise... it's always good to be able to back away from flame wars and get back to topical discussion. Thanks for that... and apologies if I've come off as an ass to you. It is frustrating for me to see how much misinformation gets posted on these forums because I see the confusion and wasted energy and time it causes people... just a personal pet peeve.



fefillo said:


> So, I do not know where on any of the charts round spokes or blades spokes specifically fall as you well know these are just generic charts that obviously are just meant to illustrate a concept and not as means to calculate absolute values for any specific material or application.


That's my issue with the first chart and why I don't understand the "elongation" curve, which seems to show a drastic decline with increasing cold work, but there are not associated units with it and it goes counter to all the peer reviewed work on this particular aspect of materials.



fefillo said:


> What I can do is use some of my existing knowledge to try to make educated guesses and deductions.
> 
> Some of my assumptions and logical progression in this case are:
> a) Round spokes have already undergone some amount of cold-working which modified the initial wire stock properties, bringing its yield from σ0 to σ1
> ...


Generally, agreed.



fefillo said:


> From that, can I then deduct that at the same built spoke tension, the bladed spoke would be a bit further away from its material yield point? Then, since it's further away from its yield point, it would sit lower in it's fatigue life curve and have more theoretical fatigue cycles to failure?


Here's the breakdown, and what the second-to-last sentence in my previous post was aimed at.
The short answer is no. No more theoretical fatigue cycles to failure.
SN Curves are tested and reported in terms of stress or strain amplitude and cycles, not relativity to yield strength.
The endurance limit concept, which is a shortcut tool structural and materials engineers use for design, does use multipliers and the yield strength to predict fatigue life, but this shortcut tool does not apply across the board with the same multipliers. That is, you can't take the simple yield strength of a particular specimen, multiply it by X, then cold work it and still multiply it by X to get a new, higher endurance limit. The X takes into account many factors, including the amount of cold work of a particular specimen, to come up with a new endurance limit. Endurance limits are the crudest form of applied science necessary for design but not really tied to the real world except by very rough approximations of empirical results... with tons of safety factor added (due to the high amount of uncertainty).
That's what I boiled down to: cold work does not have a well defined and understood relationship to fatigue resistance like it does to yield strength.


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## fefillo (Jul 24, 2014)

Thanks for the thorough, detailed explanation. That makes sense.

I tend to be a 90% solution kinda guy and in my particular line of work rules of thumb are king due to lack of lab testing or proprietary / non standard equipment in most of the things we do. So I'm used to overly simplifying issues. 

In school as in right now... I'll leave the science to the scientists and focus on building cool stuff with their results!


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

OK, both my wife and I got a set. She got some XC 29ers and I got some AM 29ers. We both have 2014 Trances and to save we used the stock Giant 28 spoke hubs(Swiss DT) and used Swiss DT spokes with the new wheels. Our LBS weighed hers and it was 200gms lighter than a pair of Ibis carbon 27.5 wheel set, didn't weigh mine. We put 2.25 Racing Ralph snake skin on hers and I went with 2.3 WTB Vigilante Tubeless on mine. Since these are new tires for us hard to figure out how much difference the rims make but, foot print is way bigger and ride is cushier and more grippy. We both had to re tighten spokes after a couple of rides but now have about ten rides since and they are running true and tight.

Bottomline, we are both riding stronger and more confident with the upgrade. 
My previous tires were 2.35 Nobby Nic fr and 2.25 NN r. If you look at the Vigilantes, they look similar but the tire rides way different. The NN's are a stiff tire especially the sidewalls. A tough tire and durable but IMO a stiff ride. The Vigilantes are a little taller and much softer especially the sidewalls. The ride is soft and cushy. The tires are stable going slow and are not fast rolling on smooth trails. The tires grip rocks very well. So, very confident tire on rocks and sand. I guess the durablity may be in question, but got 15 rides on them and so far no cuts. I like them a lot and running the tires at 20 fr and 22 r. The Vigilantes is a physically bigger tire than a NN 2.35 on these rims. My wife is really liking the 2.25 Racing Ralphs too, I think just getting away from a stiff NN to these and spreading the tires out on the rims is a great choice for her and her weight riding a 29er. Her PSI is 18 fr 20 r


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Just pulled the trigger on 29er XC Derby rims. Ever since Ray came out with his rims I wanted them!! I now just let go of the weight thing, my wheel build won't be the lightest. Onyx Racing Hubs center lock with XD driver, Red Sapim CX Ray spokes "yes red", Lilly Percision Nipples. 2 cross lacing with Bontrager XR2 Team Issue TLR 2.35 tires also using Bontrager tire TLR sealant that is Ammonia free. Check out the hubs !!


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

29er XC rims just came in, waiting on red Sapim CX Ray spokes not easy to get!! Derby's by the way really nice, about 463 and 464 g.


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

I just received a set today as well (AM 29er). Haven't opened the box yet, but super impressed that I could order on Friday, receive shipping notification that day, and receive them on Wednesday (with Monday having been a holiday).

dgw, I like the color of those hubs!


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

ACree said:


> I just received a set today as well (AM 29er)....


Welcome to the Derby Club! You putting those on your Tallboy? Or did you get a new rig?

Cheers,
Mike


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

Hah, I knew you'd see that post.

Ray should give you a commission, as knowing you were having good success was part of why I went these instead of LB.

These will be mostly on my SS, but I expect I'll use the front on the Tallboy too.



mbcracken said:


> Welcome to the Derby Club! You putting those on your Tallboy? Or did you get a new rig?
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike


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## mbcracken (Aug 12, 2006)

LOL...I wish I could get a commission beer...;-)

You'll like it on the front. I've got something like 1,400-1,500 miles on my Derbys. They seen every imaginable type of trail now. They really like the new Nobby Nic on them. I run the 2.35F/2.25R and create a nice tire profile.

Enjoy...

Cheers,
Mike


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

ACree said:


> I just received a set today as well (AM 29er). Haven't opened the box yet, but super impressed that I could order on Friday, receive shipping notification that day, and receive them on Wednesday (with Monday having been a holiday).
> 
> dgw, I like the color of those hubs!


Thanks! The color Anti Freeze, power coat finish it almost glows in the dark. Onyx hubs have no drag and make no sound, they use a Sprag clutch and hybrid ceramic bearing. The engagement is infinite with the sprag drive system. The only draw back is the weight 441g rear, but with no drag you will not care. They will do just about any color you want and are great to deal with. You get the same feeling talking with Jim at Onyx as with Ray/Derby. Ray just made me want to buy his rims, great guy with great rims.
This wheelset won't be the lightest but it will be one of the best, also anyone looking for the best Alloy nips in any color Lilly Percision Nipples. They only sell to shops and each nipple is individually anodized to perfection. I may do green nipples with red Sapim CX Ray spokes that are coming from Belgium. The Derby stickers you see look orange in picts but are red.
The perfect tire for me are Bontrager XR2 29x2.35 Team issue, sidewalls are supper durable and light. This tire will out perform Nobby Nick. XR3 some people use on the front but I like the XR2 front and rear on my 2015 Pivot 429sl.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

My buddy just finished his Evil The Following and has the Derby rims. WOW!! Very nice looking setup, and I cannot get over how massive the wheels/tires looked. He only has a few rides in, but is running pressure in the mid to upper teens, and is over 200 lbs.


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## OldschoolBMXer (Sep 25, 2008)

*Assistance on spokes and nipples*

Hi Derby owners. I just ordered a set of 29 x 35mm AM rims with Industry9 Classic 32hole hubs F/R. This will be going on a 2015 Evil the Following.

Any spoke and nipple recommendations as well as a easy to use spoke calculator site? Better yet, if you have this build, please share your spoke dimensions. I've seen the SAPIMs which look really nice.

Rider weight 165 geared up.
Enjoy good terrain, jumping some and some climbing to get the goods.

TIA! :thumbsup:


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## OldschoolBMXer (Sep 25, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> My buddy just finished his Evil The Following and has the Derby rims. WOW!! Very nice looking setup, and I cannot get over how massive the wheels/tires looked. He only has a few rides in, but is running pressure in the mid to upper teens, and is over 200 lbs.


Coincidence, this is my setup... what kind of hubs does he run with it?


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## BlueDragonX (May 10, 2013)

I joined the Derby club a few weeks ago! I went with the AM layup and laced them to Hope Pro II Evos.

It was a real pain getting the front wheel set up tubeless. I (initially) went with the Orange Seal tape and Stan's valve stems. The rear worked fine but I guess I did a shoddy job of installing the tape on the front. And I couldn't get the valve stem to seal. In fact it ended up coming through the hole. I replaced them with the Orange Seal stems and that was mostly better. I ended up replacing the Orange Seal tape with Gorilla tape and that was that.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

OldschoolBMXer said:


> Coincidence, this is my setup... what kind of hubs does he run with it?


Against my advice...Hope Pro2 EVO


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

jonshonda said:


> Against my advice...Hope Pro2 EVO


Derby wheels came out great, Sapim red CX Ray spokes, I maybe the only one in the USA with them and now no longer available. Lilly Nipples are the best nipples you can get the ano is supper hard and comes in any color. He's chain lube is also really good. Onyx hubs like butter!! I'm so glad I decided on the Derby's.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

What's the narrowest tire anyone has put on their Derby 35mm wide rims? I am debating throwing a set of WTB Nano 40 TCS tires on mine on my cross bike but not sure if I'm crazy..... Right now have 1.9 Bontrager CX0 tires on there and love them but the sidewall is a bit too thin/fragile for longer rides I have planned


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

My latest Derby 45mm rim build with the offset directionally drilled spoke holes. Really nice rim and quite a nice improvement from the originals.


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

MTB Pilot said:


> My latest Derby 45mm rim build with the offset directionally drilled spoke holes. Really nice rim and quite a nice improvement from the originals.
> 
> View attachment 1014863
> 
> ...


Is that a boost hub?


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## MTB Pilot (Oct 23, 2010)

no.


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## vice grips (Dec 21, 2012)

Any one have the ERD of the 29er AM rim? Thanks


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

May be it has been explained before, but i can't find it.
Why is that the XC rims can only be used with low knobs tires ?
They do not grab the tires in the same was as the others ?


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

BlueDragonX said:


> I joined the Derby club a few weeks ago! I went with the AM layup and laced them to Hope Pro II Evos.
> 
> It was a real pain getting the front wheel set up tubeless. I (initially) went with the Orange Seal tape and Stan's valve stems. The rear worked fine but I guess I did a shoddy job of installing the tape on the front. And I couldn't get the valve stem to seal. In fact it ended up coming through the hole. I replaced them with the Orange Seal stems and that was mostly better. I ended up replacing the Orange Seal tape with Gorilla tape and that was that.


I have the exact same frame and am looking at using a wider rim soon...
- what's the width of your derby rims?
- is that a dhf 2.5 for both wheels?
- what's the clearance after using these rims?

tbh, I'm leaning to use their 29er 45mm... tell me why this is a bad idea for a yelli screamy with minion dhf 2.5?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

20.100 FR said:


> May be it has been explained before, but i can't find it.
> Why is that the XC rims can only be used with low knobs tires ?
> They do not grab the tires in the same was as the others ?


Why not email the man himself?


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## BlueDragonX (May 10, 2013)

spyghost said:


> I have the exact same frame and am looking at using a wider rim soon...
> - what's the width of your derby rims?
> - is that a dhf 2.5 for both wheels?
> - what's the clearance after using these rims?
> ...


I've got the 35mm AM rims. The DHF 2.5" is only on the front. I use a DHR II 2.35" on the rear. There appears to be plenty of clearance for a wider tire but I've not measured it. I can't offer you any advice one way or another.

I'm more surprised that the X-Fusion Slide I've got on there has enough clearance for that tire!


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## Broncstad (Aug 4, 2009)

So I bought wfo9 and some King hubs and I'm going to buy derby's. This will be my first carbon wheelset. I want the 29er AM hoops but I'm not sure on the width. 35mm or 45mm?? Is it personal preference or is the wider the better or what?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Broncstad said:


> So I bought wfo9 and some King hubs and I'm going to buy derby's. This will be my first carbon wheelset. I want the 29er AM hoops but I'm not sure on the width. 35mm or 45mm?? Is it personal preference or is the wider the better or what?


The wider is better thing is a can of worms. There are quite a few threads on this, do a search. I'm pretty happy with 35mm Derbys on my Ibis Ripley but I'm also limited to a max tire width of 2.3 in the rear triangle. Also, keep in mind that a 29" tire has a much bigger contact patch. Thus, there is a diminishing return on traction as you already have it. My 2 cents. Plus, it's another $130 bucks for a pair of 45s.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

And the 45's will weigh more too!


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## ZEROUNO (Jun 7, 2015)

I got the XC 35mm rims with Sapim CX Ray spokes and Carbon Ti hubs for 1380 grams


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## muzzanic (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm liking the 35mm Derby's on my WFO9.



Broncstad said:


> So I bought wfo9 and some King hubs and I'm going to buy derby's. This will be my first carbon wheelset. I want the 29er AM hoops but I'm not sure on the width. 35mm or 45mm?? Is it personal preference or is the wider the better or what?


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm a big proponent of wide rims, and most of the naysaying I've read has been from people who are speculating about too much width rather than actually trying them, BUT I'm with Rockman on this one. Unless you're riding in conditions where +size or fat bikes really make sense, the 35's will hit the mark better...awesome performance and wide availability of tire models and sizes for everything from XC to DH that will work well on this size rim.


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## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

Broncstad said:


> So I bought wfo9 and some King hubs and I'm going to buy derby's. This will be my first carbon wheelset. I want the 29er AM hoops but I'm not sure on the width. 35mm or 45mm?? Is it personal preference or is the wider the better or what?


I would imagine the 45mm will be too wide for most "normal" tires. I've got 38mm LB rims and run a 2.2 Ikon on one and it is the smallest I'd go. I would run a 2.35 but it don't clear my rear triangle. I think 45mm would pretty much be 2.8-3.0ish tire territory.


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## Broncstad (Aug 4, 2009)

Ordered the 35mm AM today and should receive tomorrow! So stoked and the customer service I received from Derby was outstanding! Can't wait to try my first set of carbon wheels


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Most tires are designed with a max rim width in mind. So, u less you are using fat bike tires don't go overboard with your rims.

The 35mm would be plenty for me up front and could likely even go a bit narrower out back.


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## Master Slater (Aug 2, 2012)

Has anyone tried mounting up any of the new 27.5+ specific tires on Derby 40mm rims?

I'm specifically interested in hearing if anyone has mounted up the new Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.8 Evo on the Derby AM rims.

Bonus points: has anyone had any success with the 27.5+ tires and Derby AM rims on Santa Cruz's 5010 Gen 1?

Thanks!


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

Broncstad said:


> ...I want the 29er AM hoops but I'm not sure on the width. 35mm or 45mm?? Is it personal preference or is the wider the better or what?


I don't have any technical information to offer, but I just received a Derby AM 35mm 29er wheelset, and the rim width seems enormous.

It dwarfs my Sun Ringle Charger (28mm outer/22.8mm inner) hoops.

Haven't had a chance to ride them yet, but definitely looking forward to it.

And Ray at Derby provides Top-Shelf service and an awesome product. :thumbsup:


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

Where are you guys buying your Derby rims?

These are significantly more expensive than the light-bicycle or Nextie rims.


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## Broncstad (Aug 4, 2009)

Where?? I bought mine from derbyrims.com


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> Where are you guys buying your Derby rims?
> 
> These are significantly more expensive than the light-bicycle or Nextie rims.


From Derby.

Yes, they are more expensive than LB or Nextie, yet less expensive than Nox, less expensive than Nobl (which looks like a rebranded LB), and far, far less expensive than Enve, all with the added benefit of not being Atomik. LB has a similar product for a lower price. Buy Derby if the US Company backed warranty and additional QC is worth it to you, buy LB if not.

FWIW, the 'QC' stickers on my Derby rims were identical to the ones on my LB rims. Rims were different sizes and styles, so I can't compare apples to apples. Maybe there's only one source for tiny green QC stickers, or maybe the rims all come from the same place. Hard to say.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

Derby also was the first to implement a hookless beadwall that all the others are now copying. It's also thicker than a Nextie or LB. They are now directionally drilled which is impt to some but another nice feature are the drain holes. As they say, you get what you pay for.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Directional drilling is a good thing...it's a pretty thick slab of carbon that the spoke holes are drilled through, so the nipples can't swivel much at all. If you have a notion to run alloy nipples you can expect longer life out of them with the directional drilling.

Derby also has the benefit of choosing different layups to match your weight, terrain, riding style.

....and nobody else has Ray...


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

I was under the impression Specialized was the first hookless rim, with Derby and others following shortly after.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

ACree said:


> I was under the impression Specialized was the first hookless rim, with Derby and others following shortly after.


Seems to me that Specialized would have sued the crap out of anyone infringing on their rim if they had. That's their MO. But I think the hookless bead was around in the 1960s and 70s....I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can add to that.

But, it is my understanding that Ray was the first to utilize hookless rim walls on carbon rims, which he termed the "Derby Tubeless Standard" design, or "DTS". He also came up with the bead lock. Look at the rim and it rises toward the center channel, so that combined with the hookless rim wall helps with flat tire retention rim protection and no tubeless burps.

Not soon after, Enve's new M-Series rims had copied the original DTS design as well as American Classic, Ibis, and others. There was a bit of a partnership with Ibis. Even if Derby came up with the original idea and patent I doubt he'd have the coin to sue anybody or would want to. Pretty nice guy and his CS is top notch.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Can't sue for old tech. Cars and Pickups have had hookless for decades.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## ACree (Sep 8, 2004)

It wasn't a specialized 'invention', it was using existing technology from cars, etc. except on bicycle rims. I'm sure if they could have patented it and sued anyone who used it, they would have. Still, pretty sure Spec was the first one to market with hookless carbon rims.

MTBR review of Spec Carbon Control's 3/15/13, after 3 months review 2013 Specialized Roval Control 29 Carbon Wheels for $1200 - Mtbr.com

First post in this thread, by Derby, announcing the product - 8/15/13, so at least 8 months later to market. For all their faults, I think the Big S gets credit here.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

It had been used on bicycle rims in the past also


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Just ordered a set from Dave from Dave's Wheels.

Light Blue labels to match my Ibis Ripley Blue
Black Sapim Laser Spokes
Black I9 Torch Classic Hubs

Torn on the nipple color. Was thinking blue, but the blue won't match the label or my Ripley. Black seems all murdered out, but a safe choice. Dave suggested Gold which I was was blingy but interesting. 

Any suggestions?


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Just ordered a set from Dave from Dave's Wheels.
> 
> Light Blue labels to match my Ibis Ripley Blue
> Black Sapim Laser Spokes
> ...


Yea I would do Project 321 Teal blue hubs, black spokes and black nips.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Deleted


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Just ordered a set from Dave from Dave's Wheels.
> 
> Light Blue labels to match my Ibis Ripley Blue
> Black Sapim Laser Spokes
> ...


I think the blue looks pretty good.














The gold would also look good against the Ibis blue. It's not as blingy as you might think.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I really like gold nipples too. It's just a tiny dash of bling, and if you're running a Cane Creek shock and XTR like I am, It's a tiny matchy dash of bling....
going to be sweet any way you go!


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

I already have the I9 hubs. Reusing them. So black it is. 

I have a DBInline, but no XTR. XT guy. More disposable. 

Thinking blue nips. Thanks, rockman.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

Curious what pressure folks are running with their Derbys. I am about a 170-175 riding weight.

I've learned my lesson about too low pressure and thankfully those were alloy rims. Don't want to make the same mistake in Sedona in a few months.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Curious what pressure folks are running with their Derbys. I am about a 170-175 riding weight.
> 
> I've learned my lesson about too low pressure and thankfully those were alloy rims. Don't want to make the same mistake in Sedona in a few months.


17 and 19psi F and R, respectively. 35mm 29r Derbys. Sedona all winter long. No issues.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

rockman said:


> 17 and 19psi F and R, respectively. 35mm 29r Derbys. Sedona all winter long. No issues.


Thanks. Are you about the same weight?


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

WoodstockMTB said:


> Thanks. Are you about the same weight?


205lb kitted up. I've run lower on buff trails. Tires currently are Maxxis HRII F and DHRII R. If you really like to charge hard you might want 2-ply tires.


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## WoodstockMTB (Oct 5, 2010)

rockman said:


> 205lb kitted up. I've run lower on buff trails. Tires currently are Maxxis HRII F and DHRII R. If you really like to charge hard you might want 2-ply tires.


Not a super hard charger. Looking for more traction than anything. Currently riding Spesh 2.3 Purgatory/2.3 Ground Control on WTB KOM i23 around 25psi F/R. My terrain doesn't demand bigger tires, but may throw a Butcher on the front for Sedona.


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## Adodero (Jul 16, 2009)

_I am a doofus and realized I posted this in the 29er forum, I was linked here from another thread. I couldn't figure out how to delete it, sorry about that._

I am getting a set of AM 26 laced up to Chris King hubs for an Ibis Mojo HD (first gen), was wondering if anyone had any tire recommendations?

I usually run HRIIs on my Bronson, but I've heard some folks say they don't take to the wider profile well. Would DHRs or Butchers be better?


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## dgw7000 (Aug 31, 2011)

Adodero said:


> _I am a doofus and realized I posted this in the 29er forum, I was linked here from another thread. I couldn't figure out how to delete it, sorry about that._
> 
> I am getting a set of AM 26 laced up to Chris King hubs for an Ibis Mojo HD (first gen), was wondering if anyone had any tire recommendations?
> 
> I usually run HRIIs on my Bronson, but I've heard some folks say they don't take to the wider profile well. Would DHRs or Butchers be better?


Derby prices have really gone up, going NOX or LB next build!!


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

dgw7000 said:


> Derby prices have really gone up, going NOX or LB next build!!


They say after two years the Chinese manufacturer you're using starts jacking the prices up. Maybe time to develop another source.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

dgw7000 said:


> Derby prices have really gone up, going NOX or LB next build!!


Buy again from Derby and the prices go down. Just say'n. He takes care of repeat customers.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Hey guys I'm getting some wheels built with the 35mm rims and I saw they came in a XC and AM version. Do you think the XC version is enough for regular trail riding? Looks like minimal weight diff tho so maybe just stick with AM layup??


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Tickle said:


> Hey guys I'm getting some wheels built with the 35mm rims and I saw they came in a XC and AM version. Do you think the XC version is enough for regular trail riding? Looks like minimal weight diff tho so maybe just stick with AM layup??


The extra peace of mind of the AM layup is worth it, IMO, unless you're a welter weight looking for a race day setup. I cracked one of the early XC's, largely due to my own laziness and inattention to tire pressure while charging hard in extremely rocky terrain. I don't want to stop charging, and the rocks aren't going away, so I did an AM replacement in the rear and it's been bliss, for how long now??? Time flies, can't remember, but I bought mine within a month or two of the original launch...so 3+ years?
Ray was TOP NOTCH in taking care of me, btw.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Makes sense thank you


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