# I've heard of all sorts of frames, but which one is the absolute best?



## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm not asking this because I want to buy what you all say, I was just wondering. Are there lots of frames out there that are just as good as each other, are there a few that stand out, a couple, just one? Which are the best? (hardtail dirt jumper/urban rider)


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## dd13 (Oct 6, 2005)

there is no best.its what feels best to the rider.sure i guess quality can come into play,but then again cowan seems to do fine on his kona.not that theres anything wrong with a kona but most would probably say that an evil or a nemisis is nicer made.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

USB Molly... 
and I'm sure plenty of other votes for nemesis no doubt, and tonic fab too among others... mostly small batch hand-built companies...


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

dd13 said:


> there is no best.its what feels best to the rider.sure i guess quality can come into play,but then again cowan seems to do fine on his kona.not that theres anything wrong with a kona but most would probably say that an evil or a nemisis is nicer made.


Are you saying that Konas aren't well made?


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

What about black market stuff?


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## Epschoenly (Jan 25, 2006)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Are you saying that Konas aren't well made?


No, what he's getting at I believe is that these boutique bikes are percieved as being far superior , and much more well made, when in actuality most any bike manufacturer that has a decent idea of what the bike will be used for can make a bike that any skilled rider can use with just as much effect as a low-batch hand built bike manufacturer's offering.


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

Nemesis Project and Tonic Fab stand out at me, along with Black Market. Evil stuff is nice too but a little too XC/trail for me. USB is nice, but it's not as "boutique" as Nemesis/Tonic.


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## dd13 (Oct 6, 2005)

sorry will,i def wasnt hating on kona.i was trying to say its not what you have but how you use it...cliche i know...

but if your after a name and are looking for craftsmanship and are willing the spend the money then by all means go for it!!but if you feel that what mkaes a good bike is feel and durability and dont care about names or place of origin then thats great too!i know i couldnt afford any of those high end bikes,so thats how i shop.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

dirtyharry said:


> What about black market stuff?


yes, anyone familiar with S&M's quality will dig the blkmrkt

Ojai, why do you say USB is not as boutique... not that it matters but I'm just curious as I always saw all of them on the same level, up and coming, rare and expensive, not to mention very similar geometries. I'm not as familiar with who Tonic's welder is, but I must say, just from fame, USB's welder is widely known... does stuff for T1 as well, but the downfall from that is the rarity of frames... I've been lightly searching for a Molly frame for a bit now with no luck, but could have picked up a fall guy by now if I was trying hard (or rich enough, haha). 
well, I gotta throw in a vote for Eastern Bikes as well, my current frame is very nice and I'm satisfied with the quality in everyway + my own minor modifications :thumbsup:
oh yeah, maybe throw one up for Geekhouse, but can't speak personally for their frames, I've never seen one in person... but they are on that level of bmx cross overs building on a small scale.


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## SOG (Jun 21, 2006)

It all comes down to preference. Do you prefer 24's or 26's, V-Brakes vs. disc, SS or gears? I prefer smaller companies too and I personally ride a Supercross MX 26. I like it because it feels like a BMX cruiser with it's BB height. I am also running it as a SS and the frame is relatively light.

www.supercrossbmx.com


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

Nemesis and tonic fab.


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## trevorh (Jul 31, 2006)

Dammit! I cant find the nemesis anywhere on the net... could someone post a pic? I want to see waht everyone is talking about! thanks!


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

I've always been partial to smaller, local companies, too. However, I tried numerous hard tail MTBs for dirt jump/street and ended up with the Specialized P3. It has amazing geometry... nothing else rides like it does. It's light, strong, and feels like a big BMX. Plus, it looks damn cool, too (the first series of the frame, the new ones aren't so hot). It was really one of the first bikes of its kind.

SOG, that MX26 looks pretty dope. And from what you're describing, it rides like a BMX. I think that's the key for dirt jump/urban/street bikes, they should feel like a BMX.


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## SOG (Jun 21, 2006)

trevorh said:


> Dammit! I cant find the nemesis anywhere on the net... could someone post a pic? I want to see waht everyone is talking about! thanks!


http://www.nemesisproject.com/


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

no such thing as absolute best.

it depends on what you do. for example, i am a complete hack. i just kill everything that crosses my path. if it aint straight gauge hardened cromo, it'll last about a month with me...

someday when I grow up to be less of a hack, I'll rock a 26" nemesis. until then it'll be BMX and .243racing frames.


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## mboeder (Nov 12, 2004)

Well the Konas are great all-around bike like a swiss army knife. Wish I could ride a nemesis or a usb. I went with the Blkmarkt Mob and am soooo glad that was my choice. I preach about this frame to everyone. I have a small, but have ridden a long, I prefer the bmx sized top tube. Why anyone would mention a P series bike?:madmax: They should be burned alive for comparing that design to any of the other bikes mention in this thread.


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

mboeder said:


> Why anyone would mention a P series bike?:madmax: They should be burned alive for comparing that design to any of the other bikes mention in this thread.


Hey, bro, as has already been established on this thread, it's all about personal preference. We all know that Specialized isn't as "cool" of a brand. And the P series has been mass produced to the point where posers all over your crappy ass town are riding them, but, when you grow up, you realize it's not about how cool the bike is, it's about how it rides. Most mountain bike companies making dirt jump bikes are just now catching up to the progressive geometry used on the P series. And you're right, Kona's are a good all-around bike, but that is not what he was asking about on this thread. He wanted opinions on the best "hardtail dirt jumper/urban" frame. I say ride them and decide for yourself. :nono:


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

I might suggest Nemesis Project or Tonic Fab !
Well one's my company  so go figure I'd suggest that , Tonic makes really nice frames for the $$ doe and Landon and company are good people 



Epschoenly said:


> , what he's getting at I believe is that these boutique bikes are perceived as being far superior , and much more well made, when in actuality most any bike manufacturer that has a decent idea of what the bike will be used for can make a bike that any skilled rider can use with just as much effect as a low-batch hand built bike manufacturer's offering.


Um .. OK  
Smaller rider owned companies that make their product in house are closer to the pulse of the sport , we know what our customers want and dont have to wait a full year to make small running changes to our product lines . A customer cal email or call up and usually speak to the guy who will be building his frame for him . 
Most smaller builder take the time to do stuff the old way on a smaller scale so the end quality of each piece is better . These builder's "tune " the ride feel of their bikes for the intended purpose so even the everyday rider will be able to notice a very large difference in ride feel in something like a TonicFab or Death-Mobile VS say a Specialized Pstreet or Porter 24 ... which were the only complete mass produced 24" street specific models ever released ! Heck even something sorta nitch like a Norco 24" complete ... These waited down mass market bike can't hold a torch to any of the small builders out there who make true street specific MTB's 
Product managers from larger companies have budgets and profit margins to look out for so what bikes get hit with cheep materials and labor .... the Urban or lower end market . Not to mention the complete bike parts spec , even the high end bikes have parts that will need to be replaced if you ever go ride real street on your bike and expect to be able to ride back home on it :eekster:



trevorh said:


> Dammit! I cant find the Nemesis anywhere on the net... could someone post a pic? I want to see waht everyone is talking about! thanks!


Sure ... here are some new one's too !!! 
Thanks for the props Snaky, Ojai and Bikesatori :thumbsup:


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## mboeder (Nov 12, 2004)

Oh ya I was talking about the way it rides. The frame geometry "design" is horrible feeling. If the bike rode somewhat good then I would not hate on them as much. Other large bike companies have built better jumping/urban frames.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

I like the look of those nemesises. Would a .243 racing even compare to these highly dedicated local companies you've been mentioning? .243 Racing seems to be a much smaller company than the other large bike manufacturures anyway.


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## namaSSte (Dec 19, 2003)

BikeSATORI said:


> yes, anyone familiar with S&M's quality will dig the blkmrkt
> 
> Ojai, why do you say USB is not as boutique... not that it matters but I'm just curious as I always saw all of them on the same level, up and coming, rare and expensive, not to mention very similar geometries. I'm not as familiar with who Tonic's welder is, but I must say, just from fame, USB's welder is widely known... does stuff for T1 as well, but the downfall from that is the rarity of frames... I've been lightly searching for a Molly frame for a bit now with no luck, but could have picked up a fall guy by now if I was trying hard (or rich enough, haha).
> .


I have to agree but bear in mind that Im failry biased as the guys at USB are close friends of mine. Regardless, you cannot debate the quality of a weld (be it USB, Nemesis, Kona, or Giant) and for me that speaks volumes about the quality and care that went into the bike. USB welds have to be the finest I've seen (and that includes some really high end SLX road frames I've owned). As for what's "boutique" and what's not, I really don't see how that enters into the equation. Buy a bike for its geometry and quality, otherwise it's just name shopping and I'd prefer to leave that to the Abercrombie crowd.

Another point to consider is durability. A lot of the smaller builders have gone with steel frames which I do think is a more durable option for street riding. Think about it, there's a reason most bmx bikes only come in alu for racing but aaare almost exclusively steel for street. There are some larger prduction frames in steel too if budget is the issue (DMR, Azonic, and Norco to name a few) but each one seems to lack one or two of the things that I think the smaller builders have latched onto. Im guessing this was to gain appeal to a wider audience but I think in doing so, they created a product that is good but not great.

In the end, it's whatever you feel right on, that will stand up to the abuse you heap on it, and makes you feel good whenever you're riding it. That might be a Kona, or it might be a USB. Either way, getting a bike that is setup for your style and size will make all the difference in determining whether or not you got the "best" bike out there.

satori, check yer pm btw, potential Molly lead for you.....


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## SOG (Jun 21, 2006)

The Union Street Molly frames are nice too if you like 24's


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

SOG said:


> The Union Street Molly frames are nice too if you like 24's


I built 2 26" prototypes for them , too !!!
Havent seen any pic's of them up on the site yet ??


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## MT Road (Sep 26, 2004)

I have a MOB and I really like it (Blk MaRket) Rides well and holds up well... Steel and SS are what you need for Urban and parks... IMHO


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I'm the same guy who likes the P frame. But, this Terrorbox Killer 4 Hire is kinda dope...


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Hey, I like the old P. Series too. Now they (the aluminum ones) really suck. The steel ones are your basic steel frame with nothing too special. Same geometry, yes, but the steel ones are built differently.

How about the Sinister DNA?


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Cru Jones said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah... I'm the same guy who likes the P frame. But, this Terrorbox Killer 4 Hire is kinda dope...


That's our new production frame ... it will be priced under $450 :thumbsup: 
The photo shoot we did today for the frame was really cool ... daggers and ninja stars were involved


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## ninjaman (Jun 6, 2006)

http://www.adrenalinebikes.com/stor...es, Forks, Wheels, Frames & more!&StartRow=61

the gsr hooligan has a life time warrenty, must be good(towards the bottom)


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## pavement_hurts (May 13, 2006)

ninjaman said:


> http://www.adrenalinebikes.com/stor...es, Forks, Wheels, Frames & more!&StartRow=61
> 
> the gsr hooligan has a life time warrenty, must be good(towards the bottom)


That thing is pure fugly, but lifetime warranty.... I rode a le toy 3 once, and loved it. A little beefier than some hardtails, but it was sweet. For overall ability in urban, trail, and DJ settings, my vote goes to the le toy.


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## todd_freeride (Aug 9, 2005)

I dont think there really is a "Best" frame. they all kind of have a little different style from eachother. but in terms of being well made, my specialized P. seems to be really well made, but I've never damaged a frame. but if it were to come to being so well made for me, its a toss up between an evil imperial, Nemisis project, molly and clifcat tankass. I would say the Blk mrkt mob, but my friend tore a hole in it park riding.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

Evil4bc said:


> Sure ... here are some new one's too !!!
> Thanks for the props Snaky, Ojai and Bikesatori :thumbsup:


Not a problem, I need to push my next frame, right?


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

*Dobermann*

Dobermann is making some pimp-ass frames. Check the Man's Best Friend...

http://www.dobermannbikes.com/en/framesmbf.html


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

Don't know how this ended up in the middle of the thread...

Dobermann is making some pimp-ass frames. Check the Man's Best Friend...

https://www.dobermannbikes.com/en/framesmbf.html

Here's the Pinscher...


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## americanethics (Dec 1, 2005)

Evil4bc said:


> I built 2 26" prototypes for them , too !!!
> Havent seen any pic's of them up on the site yet ??


Brad, do you build the molly's for them too?


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

americanethics said:


> Brad, do you build the molly's for them too?


NO ... thoes are built by MAAS , this factory build some bmx frames for me about 6 years ago we wernt very impressed . This is one of the reason I build my bikes in house now .


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## ajoc_prez (Jan 19, 2004)

dirtyharry said:


> I'm not asking this because I want to buy what you all say, I was just wondering. Are there lots of frames out there that are just as good as each other, are there a few that stand out, a couple, just one? Which are the best? (hardtail dirt jumper/urban rider)


What about the Santa Cruz Jackal? Thats gotta be about one of the best frames out there. Looks beefy as hell.


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## americanethics (Dec 1, 2005)

okay how the hell did my entry just go into the center of the thread


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

Cru Jones said:


> Don't know how this ended up in the middle of the thread...
> Dobermann is making some pimp-ass frames. Check the Man's Best Friend...
> http://www.dobermannbikes.com/en/framesmbf.html
> Here's the Pinscher...


Those things look sweet, but with the slack head angle and high BB, I would definitely want to run 24s or run a rigid fork with 26s.


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## Cru Jones (Aug 10, 2006)

*NS-Bikes*

NS has some sweet rides, as well. You gotta love this B****...

WTF!? It won't let me type the word...



https://www.ns-bikes.com/


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## kayakguy (Jan 30, 2006)

What about the Jackal? ajoc is the first to mention this frame. I was thinking this might be my first dj bike.


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## sb317 (Sep 16, 2005)

I love my Sinister DNA but my next frame will definitly be a USB Molly.


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## todd_freeride (Aug 9, 2005)

kayakguy said:


> What about the Jackal? ajoc is the first to mention this frame. I was thinking this might be my first dj bike.


jackal was kind of only built for one purpose. and that was jumping. I did try a trail ride with a friends once, but a kona, P. frame or even a STP will do better than a jackal.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

What have you to say about the Identiti 666x? I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy myself that for my next frame. Decently priced, sick looking, and tough as nails. All these frames I've seen are priced around 700, while the 666x is priced at about 480.


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## hofferfish (Feb 5, 2006)

dirtyharry said:


> What have you to say about the Identiti 666x? I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy myself that for my next frame. Decently priced, sick looking, and tough as nails. All these frames I've seen are priced around 700, while the 666x is priced at about 480.


didnt you just get a new bike?


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## Leethal (Feb 5, 2004)

dirtyharry said:


> What have you to say about the Identiti 666x? I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy myself that for my next frame. Decently priced, sick looking, and tough as nails. All these frames I've seen are priced around 700, while the 666x is priced at about 480.


The Union-street is priced at $500 + shipping.

I would put our builders welding ability up against anyone, he has built a whole lot of Terrible One Barcodes in the last 6 years and if anyone can claim them to be a low quality frame I sure would like to see some proof.

Boutique frame-- whatever we build a bike to be ridden if your looking for a fancy paint job call someone else..

www.unionstreetbikes.com


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Yeah, it's just I haven't been able to ride lately because I hurt my back. I almost healed earlier last week, but I pulled a wheelie, and now I've been healing again. Whenever I'm off the bike I start to think about other bikes like crazy, and besides, a Trek bruiser doesn't satisfy 100%. It was just a thought I had (about the identiti). 

A USB Molly is not what I want. I like my 26" wheels. 

I had an idea for a frame design that would be unlike any DJ bike on the market. I've got a custom bike design shop in my town, so this could actually become a reality. (in two-three years from now)

To get the idea of what it's all about, here are the for most important details to give an idea of the size: 

Built to use 26" wheels (or 24, it wouldn't make a difference. Like I said: I like my 26's)

Best used with a 80mm or less fork.

Has a seat tube length of 200 mm. 

Has a top tube length of 596 mm (from center of ST to HT).


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