# Full Suspension and saddle tilt



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

I am mostly a hardtail rider, thou finally trying another full suspension. On my hardtails pretty easy to get my saddles dialed in. I just take into account that the front fork will sag the front of the seat down depending on the travel. I will either do the seat level at un-sagged or titled slightly up taking into account will sag down once seated. Finding it really hard dialing in my saddle on my new FS. I assume the rear must sag more then the front making the front of the saddle tilting up more? Really hard to measure how much. Do most find at un-sagged they have to tilt the saddle more forward and maybe I need to tilt more then I realize? Or anything else with saddle on FS to take into account. For example maybe on a FS a more firm saddle is better?


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## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

What are you experiencing that makes you think flat does not work? 

is the rest of your bike set up properly? Saddle tilt is usually pretty easy/ obvious if everything else has been worked out.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I hear what you saying. You can’t just use the unsagged tilt of the saddle that works on the HT and assume it will work on the FS. Not only does the rear sag, but it sags more when you climb than when you are on flat ground.

Its just trail and error.

I do tend to run my fs saddle with more forward tilt than with the same saddle on my commuter bike and rigid fat bike.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

Bassmantweed said:


> What are you experiencing that makes you think flat does not work?
> 
> is the rest of your bike set up properly? Saddle tilt is usually pretty easy/ obvious if everything else has been worked out.


Everything else feels dialed on the bike, just having more pressure points on rear end. I keep playing with adjustment, just have not found that sweet spot. Just seems in general because of rear sag in the equation harder to dial things in. Any other bike fitment measurement to maybe double check and make different in measurement with taking consideration of rear sag compared to a hardtail that could cause the pressure points as well?


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## Kevin Matherne (Jul 27, 2021)

Tighten your seat enough to ride but loose enough to move if you rock backwards or forwards hard. Go ride a trail a bit and rock it where you feel the best. Stop and lock it down.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

My saddle is all trial and error, all by feel. 

And, I do tilt the saddle forward a bit on the full squish. It is because I don’t really ever sit and spin on flat ground on that bike. It’s almost exclusively uphill, and the saddle tilt is to emulate the saddle position on flat ground, while going up the average grades I’m working with.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> Its just trail and error.


I see what you did there 😜


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Me...Flat
don't overthink this


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

On trail bikes I still set my saddles pretty level. Then again, I'm comfortable riding the rivet. I agree though, it's something you're going to have to try out and see.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> On trail bikes I still set my saddles pretty level. Then again, I'm comfortable riding the rivet. I agree though, it's something you're going to have to try out and see.


Yeah, I keep making small adjustments. was checking my seat height again, harder to measure on a FS compared to hardtail using my normal measurement. So reverted back to the heal on pedal check and appears I could raise my seat more. Hopefully that will be it. I Just wonder if another measurement because of rear sag I need to adjust compared to a hardtail. As once you sit on the bike the rear sags. Wondering if need to play around more with may stack height as well. Thou everything else on the bike feels dialed when riding.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

SSsteel4life said:


> Yeah, I keep making small adjustments. was checking my seat height again, harder to measure on a FS compared to hardtail using my normal measurement. So reverted back to the heal on pedal check and appears I could raise my seat more. Hopefully that will be it. I Just wonder if another measurement because of rear sag I need to adjust compared to a hardtail. As once you sit on the bike the rear sags. Wondering if need to play around more with may stack height as well. Thou everything else on the bike feels dialed when riding.


What makes measuring from the bb to the top of saddle on your FS more difficult than on your hardtail?

The bike at sag is going to have the same bb to saddle height that it has unloaded.

From reading all of this, it really sounds like you need to get your saddle height dialed. Set the saddle flat. Adjust your fore/aft position on the rails. _*Then, *_contemplate whether or not you need to do anything with the front end. The more you move stuff around willy-nilly, the more out in outerspace things are going to become and you'll have no real concrete frame of reference because you're chasing a ghost.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I prefer a slightly shorter reach on a hardtail than a full squish, because well... it's gonna effectively lengthen out as the fork sags. Yep, center of bb to saddle top + the crank arm length - any pedal/shoe stack height difference to hit the actual pedal top to saddle top length 

or uhhh just measure pedal top to saddle top


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

jochribs said:


> What makes measuring from the bb to the top of saddle on your FS more difficult than on your hardtail?


On a hardtail you have a seat tube that goes the whole way in line to use. On FS you do not have that luxury, you have to eye an virtual line. Which ungagged that line is not your true line, as soon as you sit on the seat that line changes. I finally had my son help me try to measure the difference in how the seat tilts from un-sagged and once seated. The back end of the saddle tilted down more then I expected. I took that and re-aligned the seat based off that. We will see on next ride if makes a difference.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Use a meter stick, solves that problem. Center to center remains constant between BB and saddle.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> I prefer a slightly shorter reach on a hardtail than a full squish, because well... it's gonna effectively lengthen out as the fork sags. Yep, center of bb to saddle top + the crank arm length - any pedal/shoe stack height difference to hit the actual pedal top to saddle top length
> 
> or uhhh just measure pedal top to saddle top


Yeah, what I have done on my various hardtail bikes in my fleet  easy duplication process. This FS is being a little harder to dial in my seat comfort then my last FS. Wonder if maybe how the CBF suspension works the seat tilt more on my Tilt 🤣. Everything else has been steeler on this machine!


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

SSsteel4life said:


> On a hardtail you have a seat tube that goes the whole way in line to use. On FS you do not have that luxury, you have to eye an virtual line. Which ungagged that line is not your true line, as soon as you sit on the seat that line changes. I finally had my son help me try to measure the difference in how the seat tilts from un-sagged and once seated. The back end of the saddle tilted down more then I expected. I took that and re-aligned the seat based off that. We will see on next ride if makes a difference.


It's still not quantum physics. 

Even if you have a curved seattube, there is a 'virtual' seat tube angle. It is generally figured that the virtual/effective is the line that would intersect with the effective TT line...so...find the point on your seat tube where the effective TT hits. Put a pencil mark. A piece of tape. Whatever you want. Then, that point is where you can carry through from the center of the BB with your measuring tape, or a meter stick (as Dysfunction mentions), or a 4 ft level etc. That all said, that point is not _*entirely *_critical in measuring your saddle height, although it is helpful in being more precise. 

Make yourself a plumb-bob. I have heavy construction ones, but they're overkill. For the bikes in the fam, I've made one out of a Park Tool spoke wrench. Tie the string around the wrench part. Find your fore/aft by using the plumb bob to locate your patella with your pedal spindle when cranks is forward at 3 o'clock. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of whether you should be dead over the spindle, (there's a lot of information about this online), but that will let you know where you are in relation to your cranks/pedaling circle.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ummm it's not the Tilt  










Sounds like you're gonna have to play with it a bit.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

jochribs said:


> It's still not quantum physics.
> 
> Even if you have a curved seattube, there is a 'virtual' seat tube angle. It is generally figured that the virtual/effective is the line that would intersect with the effective TT line...so...find the point on your seat tube where the effective TT hits. Put a pencil mark. A piece of tape. Whatever you want. Then, that point is where you can carry through from the center of the BB with your measuring tape, or a meter stick (as Dysfunction mentions), or a 4 ft level etc. That all said, that point is not _*entirely *_critical in measuring your saddle height, although it is helpful in being more precise.
> 
> Make yourself a plumb-bob. I have heavy construction ones, but they're overkill. For the bikes in the fam, I've made one out of a Park Tool spoke wrench. Tie the string around the wrench part. Find your fore/aft by using the plumb bob to locate your patella with your pedal spindle when cranks is forward at 3 o'clock. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of whether you should be dead over the spindle, (there's a lot of information about this online), but that will let you know where you are in relation to your cranks/pedaling circle.


I agree with all this. Just trying to make sure nothing I am missing by chance. Have done what you mention, I used a 4 ft level to try and figure that line. Have a plumb-bob I used on initial setup for my preferred fore/aft as well, that should be good, but my have to revist when all done if I raise my seat a bit more based off my heal on pedal test. I'm hoping my last adjustment will get me more in the ball park. Thanks for all the advice.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Ummm it's not the Tilt
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes indeed!  Coming up on 100 miles soon! Will find the sweet spot eventually.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

jochribs said:


> Make yourself a plumb-bob. I have heavy construction ones, but they're overkill. For the bikes in the fam, I've made one out of a Park Tool spoke wrench. Tie the string around the wrench part. Find your fore/aft by using the plumb bob to locate your patella with your pedal spindle when cranks is forward at 3 o'clock. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of whether you should be dead over the spindle, (there's a lot of information about this online), but that will let you know where you are in relation to your cranks/pedaling circle.


That is assuming you want the same effective STA (or saddle setback from the bb) between all your bikes. That rule of thumb is has a lot of caveats these days. My saddle is much farther forward on my FS bike than my rigid fat bike and even more so than my road bike.

As far as hieght goes, just measuring from the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to wherever you actually sit on the saddle is going to get you pretty close.

But the bottom line is you should mess with it and see what feels best.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

kapusta said:


> That is assuming you want the same effective STA (or saddle setback from the bb) between all your bikes. That rule of thumb is has a lot of caveats these days. My saddle is much farther forward on my FS bike than my rigid fat bike and even more so than my road bike.
> 
> As far as hieght goes, just measuring from the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to wherever you actually sit on the saddle is going to get you pretty close.
> 
> But the bottom line is you should mess with it and see what feels best.


No, I'm not assuming that. If you read my post in its entirety, I said I'm not going to tell the guy where he needs to be in relation to the cranks with his knee. I said that it would let him know where he was and there was a lot of info on that online.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

SSsteel4life said:


> I agree with all this. Just trying to make sure nothing I am missing by chance. Have done what you mention, I used a 4 ft level to try and figure that line. Have a plumb-bob I used on initial setup for my preferred fore/aft as well, that should be good, but my have to revist when all done if I raise my seat a bit more based off my heal on pedal test. I'm hoping my last adjustment will get me more in the ball park. Thanks for all the advice.


I know a lot of people are saying to measure from the pedal, and I can see the benefit in that if you have differing pedals etc. I always just measure from the bb myself though, and do the math if anything around that changes...crank length/pedals etc.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Due to the large sag, I run a lot of tilt on my Tilt.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

kapusta said:


> Due to the large sag, I run a lot of tilt on my Tilt.
> View attachment 2006426


That's a great example of just how much this differs per person 

Roughly how much sag are you running?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> That's a great example of just how much this differs per person
> 
> Roughly how much sag are you running?


Last I measured it is about 35-36%. More on that in the Tilt setup thread in the Canfield forum. 

To be fair, I do run my saddles tilted pretty forward compared to most folks, and I also eased back a bit after this pic was taken. But I run more forward tilt on this bike than any other I have owned, and I am pretty sure it is due to all the sag.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

kapusta said:


> Due to the large sag, I run a lot of tilt on my Tilt.
> View attachment 2006426


After my son helped me measure how much the rear of the seat tilted downward compared to the front while sitting on bike, that is getting close to how mine is looking.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

kapusta said:


> Last I measured it is about 35-36%. More on that in the Tilt setup thread in the Canfield forum.
> 
> To be fair, I do run my saddles tilted pretty forward compared to most folks, and I also eased back a bit after this pic was taken. But I run more forward tilt on this bike than any other I have owned, and I am pretty sure it is due to all the sag.


Yea, that's why the roughly. I figured this might be somewhat salient here because we're both running tilts.. and the saddle difference is interesting. But, my sag is about 30% (ish). My saddles more forward on my Lithium at the moment.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Yea, that's why the roughly. I figured this might be somewhat salient here because we're both running tilts.. and the saddle difference is interesting. But, my sag is about 30% (ish). My saddles more forward on my Lithium at the moment.


This is why I was curious if maybe the CBF design, in that it isolates from pedaling and braking so much that maybe it causes more of a rearward tilt then other suspension designs.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

SSsteel4life said:


> This is why I was curious if maybe the CBF design, in that it isolates from pedaling and braking so much that maybe it causes more of a rearward tilt then other suspension designs.


If it's CBF, explain why both kapusta and I are running different saddle setups, on the same bike  Oh and why my lithium (also CBF) has more forward saddle than my tilt.

I think it's two things, amount of sag and preference.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> If it's CBF, explain why both kapusta and I are running different saddle setups, on the same bike  Oh and why my lithium (also CBF) has more forward saddle than my tilt.
> 
> I think it's two things, amount of sag and preference.


I hear yeah, why I posted for other people thoughts. Strange is I don't usually preference a front down tilting saddle. But interesting my measurement proved the rear of seat was tilting down more then I expected when sitting on. And I am only running 25% sag.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

SSsteel4life said:


> This is why I was curious if maybe the CBF design, in that it isolates from pedaling and braking so much that maybe it causes more of a rearward tilt then other suspension designs.


I don’t think is has anything to do with the pedaling behavior in my case. It’s the static sag.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

kapusta said:


> I don’t think is has anything to do with the pedaling behavior in my case. It’s the static sag.


I think its static sag, and the avg gradients that you're riding. If you spend all your time on uphills, you might tilt it forward more. If you're on flatter terrain, perhaps a bit flatter.

But I don't think its suspension type.

Here is my Banshee with a twin link suspension design. The picture isn't the greatest as the bike is on an angle (front tire is higher, so the saddle actually looks less canted forward in this), but you can get the basic idea.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ocnLogan said:


> I think its static sag, and the avg gradients that you're riding. If you spend all your time on uphills, you might tilt it forward more. If you're on flatter terrain, perhaps a bit flatter.
> 
> But I don't think its suspension type.
> 
> ...


I agree that The behavior of the suspension under pedaling is not going to affect sag a whole lot, however the suspension spring curve can effect how much sag you’re going to end up running.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

Got to ride today, my theory after measuring that the rear did sag more then I thought was correct. With the front of the saddle tilted more downward to make it level once sagged It was 90% better today. Now just have to tweak a tiny bit more. Thanks for everyone helping chime in.


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