# $10,500.



## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

Is l***e (238) a poster here? I started pondering if you were to value out the parts, what the price would've been for the frame and fork. Then my head hurt.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

He posts here occasionally.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

I've been saving up for a long time for something special


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Lol


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

bushpig said:


> Lol


 YOu better go get a steak dinner!:thumbsup:


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Actually, the economic stimulus package came through for MWC....


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

>shakes head<


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I'm pretty surprised. I've never seen one go for anything close to this before.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I'm pretty surprised. I've never seen one go for anything close to this before.


Drastic times call for drastic measures. After hearing .8 trillion tossed around like nothing, this is like pccket change. 

The seller was ready to sell to me for much less until he talked to some guy at Calmar Cycles a while back.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Dude, WTF are you guys talking about???
10k HA! that was a steal....

Here's my next bike.:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110346846647

LOL!!!   

Seriously, I counted at least 7 bikes over 9k on e-bay. So 10k obviously doesn't buy what it used to..... :eekster: :eekster: :eekster:


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Someone pulled the trigger and it's only a few miles from my house, lol.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

YETIFIED said:


> Someone pulled the trigger and it's only a few miles from my house, lol.


Do you live in Freemont, NE or Wahoo?  :skep:


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

So 10k obviously doesn't buy what it used to..... :eekster: :eekster: :eekster:[/QUOTE]

I agree...you look at all the big companies and they have a $10,000 production road bike floating around. Bianchi sells a Ti bike now retails for what the ham sold for....?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm surprised. I thought a certain somebody is trying to hoard all that are left in the world.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

sfgirlonbike said:


> I'm surprised. I thought a certain somebody is trying to hoard all that are left in the world.


which one are we talking about


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

stan lee said:


> Do you live in Freemont, NE or Wahoo?  :skep:


Right through Niles Canyon.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

hollister said:


> which one are we talking about


The hoarder or the shiny bike?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> The hoarder or the shiny bike?


Just like the bikes there are a number of hoarders.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Why do you all speak in toung on a public forum? 
Sounds like this bike was an Ebay bike that has already sold. If it's sold, let the rest of us in on the story. Shucks, we are all one big happy family here aren't we. Even if some of us are the bastard stepbrother you never talk about. 
look forward,
T


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Aemmer said:


> Why do you all speak in toung on a public forum?
> Sounds like this bike was an Ebay bike that has already sold. If it's sold, let the rest of us in on the story. Shucks, we are all one big happy family here aren't we. Even if some of us are the bastard stepbrother you never talk about.
> look forward,
> 
> T


Just do what every one else does, go to the retrobike.co.uk e-bay forum.

We Americans are so smart, we figured if we don't tell anyone about something. That in the 21st century, on the WORLD WIDE web, No one else in the world will EVER find it 

that's probably one of the reasons most of our bikes go overseas...........


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## bikerboy (Jan 13, 2004)

It was pretty easy for me to figure out which bike they are talking about. Look at post #13. I believe they weren't actually referring to the pork product, so all I did was do a completed item search on ebay and voila.

By the way, that has to be one of the worst listings as far as photos and text given the caliber of bike and what it sold for. It makes me wonder why I only got $400 my cherry King Sting when I thought I did everything right in my auction. Oh well, life goes on.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Drastic times call for drastic measures. After hearing .8 trillion tossed around like nothing, this is like pccket change.
> 
> The seller was ready to sell to me for much less until he talked to some guy at Calmar Cycles a while back.


He told me some time ago it was part of his retirement package.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Still not a straight answer  ... here you go:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-CHARLIE-CUNNINGHAM-RACER-MTB_W0QQitemZ200308157796


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Wow, I see why so many of you have such a passion for those. Beautiful bike. Thanks SF for the easy link. I found the shipping of $60 quite reasonable for a complete bike.
T


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

YETIFIED said:


> He told me some time ago it was part of his retirement package.


To where? Minot, ND? 10k isn't even 10 months rent in the bay area.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

ssmike said:


> To where? Minot, ND? 10k isn't even 10 months rent in the bay area.


LOL, you said what I was thinking. Better get some cat food to go with that retirement plan.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

bushpig said:


> LOL, you said what I was thinking. Better get some cat food to go with that retirement plan.


Now if he had about 20 of those, that might be a start.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

seems like we've seen more 'hams posted with slicks than Kleins lately...somehow I think the 'hams will escape the typical bashing though, (beautiful bikes in the wrong hands make me sad, but I'm sure the new owner will rectify the situation,  ).




Steve


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Still not a straight answer  ... here you go:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-CHARLIE-CUNNINGHAM-RACER-MTB_W0QQitemZ200308157796


Softie


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

I hope I don't come off as a smartass, but is there a large pool of potential buyers for Cunninghams, or do these things just get passed around the same bunch of people?


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## bmxcollector (Nov 21, 2006)

Interesting, if the owner (former) is who I think it is we spoke about this bike at the last Veloswap (or whatever they call it now) at the Cow Palace. He was contemplating an offer for about half the selling price. Looks like he made the right move going to Ebay. Does this set the bar or is it a fluke?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I hope it was a fluke. It was much higher than all but one I've seen sell for.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

eastcoaststeve said:


> seems like we've seen more 'hams posted with slicks than Kleins lately...somehow I think the 'hams will escape the typical bashing though, (beautiful bikes in the wrong hands make me sad, but I'm sure the new owner will rectify the situation,  ).
> 
> Steve


You're totally right. I've seen far too many Cunninghams with dorky builds and road slicks.

Whats worse, is a large number of them are in collections that will never be riddend again or even see the light of day for that matter. To me is lame. At at $10.5k it makes even less sense. (so no...its unlikely the new owner will rectify the situation)

I'm not bitter, I just....don't get it.


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## RobynC (Feb 14, 2004)

IF52 said:


> I hope I don't come off as a smartass, but is there a large pool of potential buyers for Cunninghams, or do these things just get passed around the same bunch of people?


In days of yore, the so-called "Cunningham waiting list" was the stuff of legend. For $10k, I wonder if Charlie would be willing to build a new frame, circa 2009. Now that would be a rare bird indeed.


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## pete_mcc (Aug 19, 2006)

Fillet-brazed said:


> The seller was ready to sell to me for much less until he talked to some guy at Calmar Cycles a while back.


It was on craigslist only a few weeks ago for $3,000 less as well.

Thats what I love about ebay and 'Buy it Now' prices - a seller can tell dumb people what somethings worth and they'll believe it.


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## bikerboy (Jan 13, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Still not a straight answer  ... here you go:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-CHARLIE-CUNNINGHAM-RACER-MTB_W0QQitemZ200308157796


Come on, you gotta make people think to get what they want. I used to be terrible about wanting to ask people what the answer was before I even gave it a shot. I think my current job which involves a lot of investigation and info digging has helped me with this a lot.

I can't say that it was too difficult for me to figure out what bike was being discussed. As soon as I saw the word "ham" I went to ebay and did a completed item search for Cunningham. Bam, there it was.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

RobynC said:


> , I wonder if Charlie would be willing to build a new frame, circa 2009.


It would cost more than that to build one today..... 
To this day I'm unaware of any aluminum frame builder that brings their frames back to annealed condition AFTER welding.

not to mention the Grease Guard parts....


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I hope it was a fluke. It was much higher than all but one I've seen sell for.


Dude, your just going to have to raise you bill rate


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Carole had the MBHOF 'Ham insured for 10k 15 years ago when it went somewhere on exhibition.


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## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

*waxing philosophical*

The worth of a thing, like the beauty of a thing, is in the eye, or wallet, of the beholder.

I can't imagine spending that much money on a hunk of aluminum, but make it one of the bikes that Jacqui actually rode in some big race, and if I had the money, I'd pay double.

Sentiment and prediction of future value have a lot to do with our purchases. Your watch? Your wallet? Maybe your scotch glasses? For some it is about variety, for some about quantity (Hoover), and for some it is about that ONE rare find.

That said, If I spent this much on a bicycle, I would ride it. I would ride the sh*t out of it, but I get where some wouldn't.

jmho


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> At at $10.5k it makes even less sense.
> 
> I'm not bitter, I just....don't get it.


LOL!!! Ahhhhh, but if it would have made sense if it had been a Replica Tomac Raleigh    

I love capitalism!!!


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

RobynC said:


> In days of yore, the so-called "Cunningham waiting list" was the stuff of legend.


Yeah, but was the waiting list legend because there were 12 guys that had to wait for years to get their bike or because there were 1000s of people waiting in the queue?


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

jh4rt said:


> The worth of a thing, like the beauty of a thing, is in the eye, or wallet, of the beholder.


Bingo.

I honestly don't know what all the hubbub is about spending 10 large on a bike. Honestly, take a look at the high end production bikes, both mountain and road. They ain't cheap. Getting a custom, hand-made frame is going to set you back a fair amount of coin. These days, you can easily spend $10K on a custom bike with quality components. Add into the equation stuff from the independent fabricators of fine bicycle parts, and your going to have to dig deeper into your pockets.

If you have been waiting for something you desire, and it comes along, the price can sometimes seems secondary. I spent the greater part of last year building up my retro project I recently posted, and when a complete drive train came up on eBay that I thought would complement my project perfectly, I scooped it up (after a few offers). Did I pay too much? Maybe to some. But I thought it was perfectly reasonable considering (A) I most likely would be waiting a month of Sundays for another complete NOS vintage American-made drive train and (B) there aren't any American companies currently producing these. Stuff like this just doesn't come up very often, and I stumbled upon something that fit the bill perfectly. Possibly the winner of the auction thought this as he/she selected the Buy It Now button...


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

misterdangerpants said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I honestly don't know what all the hubbub is about spending 10 large on a bike. Honestly, take a look at the high end production bikes, both mountain and road. They ain't cheap. Getting a custom, hand-made frame is going to set you back a fair amount of coin. These days, you can easily spend $10K on a custom bike with quality components. Add into the equation stuff from the independent fabricators of fine bicycle parts, and your going to have to dig deeper into your pockets.
> 
> If you have been waiting for something you desire, and it comes along, the price can sometimes seems secondary. I spent the greater part of last year building up my retro project I recently posted, and when a complete drive train came up on eBay that I thought would complement my project perfectly, I scooped it up (after a few offers). Did I pay too much? Maybe to some. But I thought it was perfectly reasonable considering (A) I most likely would be waiting a month of Sundays for another complete NOS vintage American-made drive train and (B) there aren't any American companies currently producing these. Stuff like this just doesn't come up very often, and I stumbled upon something that fit the bill perfectly. Possibly the winner of the auction thought this as he/she selected the Buy It Now button...


I agree with your analysis, but the winner of this Ham just has a large bike budget.


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## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

The suggested retail for Scott's Addict is close to that number, I'll bet $10,500 that in 20+ years there won't be any of those plastic bikes rolling around. Timeless, historic, quality, get's you to $10,500.


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## Z-Man (Apr 25, 2005)

Couldn't you just throw in the shipping?!! Sheesh... I have all but given up looking. I bumped into a guy selling old bikes a bit back on CL, asked about any old American made MTB's. First thing out of his mouth (keyboard) he had an old Cunningham, #5, but it was stolen, twice, last seen in Hawaii. Told me some cool story about Jamaican kids on Stingrays helping chase it down the first time it was stolen in London. If I had an *extra* 10k I might do it, rather have one than a Serotta....


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

IF52 said:



> Yeah, but was the waiting list legend because there were 12 guys that had to wait for years to get their bike or because there were 1000s of people waiting in the queue?


Thousands that wished they could have been on the waiting list, myself included. I was but a teenager in the heyday of Cunningham, but boy did I drool and lust.

Probably not too many 'Ham lusters from Somerville though.

And I also agree that when you find something you love money is secondary. I always chuckle at the "that just makes no sense, you could buy a new bike for that" mentality.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Thousands that wished they could have been on the waiting list, myself included. I was but a teenager in the heyday of Cunningham, but boy did I drool and lust..


seriously thousands? A west coast thing or what? I mean you grew up in CA, so you had more exposure to the various small builders out there. So for example would the average west coast joe know what Rhygin or Brew or some other small east coast builder was?

Or as another off topic example, I grew up in South Florida into saltwater fishing. My dream boat as a kid was a 25' center console Mako. I now live in Ohio and nobody here knows what a Mako is. Regional difference.



Fillet-brazed said:


> Probably not too many 'Ham lusters from Somerville though..


I don't get what your point is. Our shop probably sold as many Ritcheys over the years as we did Fats and we sold our share of WTB bits. We weren't a total backwater shop. Some of the guys in the shop were actually pretty chummy with Tom and Scot and the like.

And Casey Kunselman even ended his career racing for Fat.



Fillet-brazed said:


> And I also agree that when you find something you love money is secondary. I always giggle at the "that just makes no sense, you could buy a new bike for that" mentality.


I'm not disparaging anybody for spending what they want to spend on whatever they like, I do the same thing. I was just wondering if these bikes just get recycled through the same group of people, or do they all eventually wind up in Noah's hands, or is the appeal of Cunningham's bikes spreading or is this turning into the investment frenzy that Ferraris became in the 80s


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

IF52 said:


> seriously thousands? A west coast thing or what? I mean you grew up in CA, so you had more exposure to the various small builders out there. So for example would the average west coast joe know what Rhygin or Brew or some other small east coast builder was?
> 
> Or as another off topic example, I grew up in South Florida into saltwater fishing. My dream boat as a kid was a 25' center console Mako. I now live in Ohio and nobody here knows what a Mako is. Regional difference.
> 
> ...


You talked about regional differences in demand and then the next sentence regarding said topic is "I don't get your point". My point was that in Somerville Fats were probably the bike in demand. You should see all the Santa Cruz's with FOX forks around here. Both companies are just a few miles away.

I don't even know what a Rhygin is. Marketing, demand and region all play a role in that I'm sure. I've heard of Brew. Barely. Don't they have a bad reputation?

Yeah, I'd say for sure there were thousands that wanted a Ham.

I hope they're not bought for investments. That takes the beauty out of it IMO.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

pete_mcc said:


> It was on craigslist only a few weeks ago for $3,000 less as well.
> 
> Thats what I love about ebay and 'Buy it Now' prices - a seller can tell dumb people what somethings worth and they'll believe it.


Value is defined as what someone is willing to pay for an item.

Ever buy any diamonds??? Hell, they come out of the ground, yet there's no shortage of people willing to pay much more for a small rock. Ever seen what a 10k$ diamond looks like? Hint, you'll need a magnifying glass to really see it well


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

crconsulting said:


> Value is defined as what someone is willing to pay for an item.
> 
> Ever buy any diamonds??? Hell, they come out of the ground, yet there's no shortage of people willing to pay much more for a small rock. Ever seen what a 10k$ diamond looks like? Hint, you'll need a magnifying glass to really see it well


Hey! I LOVE diamonds. I can't help it. It's a weakness. 

While Noah loves hams, I tease him about it a lot and probably make it seem like he has more than he does...even though he has a few.  I think it's sort of like, some guys are boob guys, some guys are leg guys (you don't need to vote on this). Some guys are hams guys and some guys are Klein guys. While having multiples doesn't make sense to some people, to others, they are only rounding out their stable. Or something to that effect...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Hey! I LOVE diamonds. I can't help it. It's a weakness.
> 
> While Noah loves hams, I tease him about it a lot and probably make it seem like he has more than he does...even though he has a few.  I think it's sort of like, some guys are boob guys, some guys are leg guys (you don't need to vote on this). Some guys are hams guys and some guys are Klein guys. While having multiples doesn't make sense to some people, to others, they are only rounding out their stable. Or something to that effect...


Sure. I wanted this latest Ham that sold on ebay badly. It is very similar to the one I own now and most would probably say it was close to identical. But it represented a different era of Charlie's bike building and had many subtle differences. Plus it was my size and I had been working on the seller for a long time.  I don't blame him for going the ebay route though. $10K doesn't seem crazy to me, but it's more than I was willing to pay. $3K was a lot for a Ham a few years ago.

My parents were dead scared over their $90 mortgage they took on in 1972.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Hey! I LOVE diamonds. I can't help it. It's a weakness.


Seeee!!!!

My wife has the same issue..... 
That Cunninghams is a GREAT deal, believe me


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> You talked about regional differences in demand and then the next sentence regarding said topic is "I don't get your point". My point was that in Somerville Fats were probably the bike in demand. You should see all the Santa Cruz's with FOX forks around here. Both companies are just a few miles away.


OK, that's what I hoped you meant. I wasn't sure if you were gigging me because I am into Fats.

*EDIT* (I meant to add, but somebody interupted me at work) I think Ritchey and Fat are more comparable by numbers than Cunningham to either one. Fat or Ritchey in one year probably produced more bikes than Charlie ever did, no? They are opposite coasts, but overlapped markets more than say Cunningham did with Fat, or maybe even Ritchey or Ibis.



Fillet-brazed said:


> I don't even know what a Rhygin is. Marketing, demand and region all play a role in that I'm sure. I've heard of Brew. Barely. Don't they have a bad reputation?


Uh, sort of. They built 'single season' race bikes and they are kind of sluggish about responding to calls, e-mail, etc. I never bought one in my size, I was sure I would mangle it. I think though that you are thinking about Nevil, which have a seriously bad reputation.



Fillet-brazed said:


> I hope they're not bought for investments. That takes the beauty out of it IMO.


I agree.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

crconsulting said:


> LOL!!! Ahhhhh, but if it would have made sense if it had been a Replica Tomac Raleigh
> 
> I love capitalism!!!


I would have said the same about a JTR Replica. 

If it were the Otto C'Ham or John's actual race bike...different story.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

It's only a done deal when the money has been delivered. I would guess a listing like that would irk enough people to possibly have someone hit the BIN button and leave the guy hanging.

As for his retirement package, hell I would have put a roof over his head for life up here MT for that bike.

It would *suck* to get that bike and then find a crack....

CC could make a mint making new bikes... could you imagine?

-Schmitty-


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Schmitty said:


> It's only a done deal when the money has been delivered. I would guess a listing like that would irk enough people to possibly have someone hit the BIN button and leave the guy hanging.
> 
> As for his retirement package, hell I would have put a roof over his head for life up here MT for that bike.
> 
> ...


I've worked with the buyer before. He pays promptly. I doubt there would be much market for Cunningham repops.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

No, no repros... just updated Indians. No market? To a degree there's a market for everything, and certainly CC is in a position to take advantage of that in and of itself. I think there would be a 'real' market above and beyond that though.

Who knows. Fun to think about.

-Schmitty-


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> To this day I'm unaware of any aluminum frame builder that brings their frames back to annealed condition AFTER welding.


???
Could you please explain this? An aluminum frame in an annealed state would be soft and bad and fold under any hard use. Do you mean he naturally aged the frames to T-4 and not the harder T-6?


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## Z-Man (Apr 25, 2005)

*Koo Koo Ka Choo*

According to this...
http://jacquiephelan.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/jocko-local-pinnipedaler/
He's working on a new bike right now!


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

A friend of mine bought one new way back when and I'm pretty sure, totally kitted out with WTB everything, a fit-finder and a Potts stem and fork it was close to $7K CAD once duties were paid and funds exchanged. 

That's about $11K in 2009 dollars, isn't it? $10.5 US with delivery within a week or so sounds like all it's really done is maintained it's value, not really appreciated all that much.

I don't really get why this is extraordinary. Now XT Kleins going for over adjusted list... That's just silly


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> ???
> Could you please explain this? An aluminum frame in an annealed state would be soft and bad and fold under any hard use. Do you mean he naturally aged the frames to T-4 and not the harder T-6?


no, they're heat treated. I'm not sure what CRC means by the annealed part.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

yeah, no doubt that the buyer is real and serious.

$10.5k is only part of the equation (albeit the larger one). shipping certainly will be more than $60 and tax and customs duties will add another nice number. i bet he's enjoying this thread...

Carsten


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> A friend of mine bought one new way back when and I'm pretty sure, totally kitted out with WTB everything, a fit-finder and a Potts stem and fork it was close to $7K CAD once duties were paid and funds exchanged.
> 
> That's about $11K in 2009 dollars, isn't it? $10.5 US with delivery within a week or so sounds like all it's really done is maintained it's value, not really appreciated all that much.
> 
> I don't really get why this is extraordinary. Now XT Kleins going for over adjusted list... That's just silly


They were $3-4K in the '80s.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

mainlyfats said:


> A friend of mine bought one new way back when and I'm pretty sure, totally kitted out with WTB everything, a fit-finder and a Potts stem and fork it was close to $7K CAD once duties were paid and funds exchanged.
> 
> That's about $11K in 2009 dollars, isn't it? $10.5 US with delivery within a week or so sounds like all it's really done is maintained it's value, not really appreciated all that much.
> 
> I don't really get why this is extraordinary. Now XT Kleins going for over adjusted list... That's just silly


Depending on exchange that 7k CAD coulda been like $3,500 USD.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Carsten said:


> i bet he's enjoying this thread...
> 
> Carsten


I bet we never see anymore pictures of the bike...

wheres my camera...


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Carsten said:


> i bet he's enjoying this thread...


As of this posting...I see his name listed as a viewer!


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*NO Annealing OR STRESS RELIEVING IS CORRECT*



Fillet-brazed said:


> no, they're heat treated. I'm not sure what CRC means by the annealed part.


After you weld (unhardened) 6061 the correct process is to ANNEAL it. "Heat Treating" is a typically referred to as hardening process but technically you are "heat treating" to anneal also. When you weld 6061 aluminum it changes the temper of the aluminum actually hardening (or softening in the case of T-6) the welded areas inconsistently as ambient temperatures are difficult to control creating stresses around the welded joint. Thus one of the reasons why aluminum typically fails AROUND a properly welded tube. In the aerospace biz all correctly welded applications of (T-0) 6061 calling for it to be "brought back" to their original state (or whatever is spec'd.) go thru this process effectively making everything consistent. This can also be considered "Stress Relieving".

(edit: Looking at the mombat.org article IF52 uploaded. Looks like Charlie may have started with a pre hardened tubing instead possibly T-6? in which case the tubing would be hardened initially and then would SOFTEN under welding. Requiring hardening to whatever hardness or softness he found optimum. Just thought clarification on this was somewhat important. The ultimate variable is what hardening you want to end up with there are many ways to achieve this depending on the tubing you START with pre-hardened, or T-0)

A lot of people skip that last process in other businesses.   One of the reasons that makes Charlie's bikes "special".

When we used to machine welded parts when I worked for NASA Ames we always liked to machine the parts last, After any treating if possible. As the material could shift during this process.

I bet Charlie had to hand straighten each frame after annealing.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> After you weld T6061 the correct process is to ANNEAL it. "Heat Treating" is a typically referred to as hardening process but technically you are "heat treating" to anneal also. When you weld T6061 aluminum it changes the temper of the aluminum actually hardening the welded areas inconsistently as ambient temperatures are difficult to control creating stresses around the welded joint. Thus one of the reasons why aluminum typically fails AROUND a properly welded tube. In the aerospace biz all correctly welded applications of 6061 calling for it to be "brought back" to their original state go thru this process effectively making everything a consistent "softness". i.e. "Stress Relieving".
> 
> A lot of people skip that last process in other businesses.   One of the reasons that makes Charlie's bikes "special".
> 
> ...


So another word for heat treating? I know Steve has told me they anneal the tubing for LD stems and he explained it breifly, but I imagine that's different than it is for aluminum.

I've seen Charlie's oven he uses for heat treating.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> They were $3-4K in the '80s.


Yeah - HIgh 4s in USD and you'd be there.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> So another word for heat treating?


Technically when you hear the term heat treating its usually referred to as a hotter process to harden the metal by altering the grain structure. First "heating" the metal, then "treating" it thru quenching or thermal shock of some form. But sure annealing is a "heat treatment" process too



Fillet-brazed said:


> I know Steve has told me they anneal the tubing for LD stems and he explained it breifly, but I imagine that's different than it is for aluminum.


Not really, just the temperatures are different.....



Fillet-brazed said:


> I've seen Charlie's oven he uses for heat treating.


Heat treating and annealing are done at varying temperatures and times depending on metals. But they can be done in the same oven if it has the temp capability. Another difference is that heat treating will sometimes require "quenching" to freeze the metal's grain structure. Where as in tempering you will typically let the metal cool gradually. Different processeses.....


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> ???
> Could you please explain this? An aluminum frame in an annealed state would be soft and bad and fold under any hard use. Do you mean he naturally aged the frames to T-4 and not the harder T-6?


6061 is FAR from soft....

edit: after reading the article in mombat.org it looks like he's (Charlie) talking about bringing the frame to T6 or maybe T8 state AFTER welding but its unclear in the article exactly what hardness exactly.

either way in this case he did "harden" the frame tubes but its unclear what he started with.....



themanmonkey said:


> Do you mean he naturally aged the frames to T-4 and not the harder T-6?


I don't think you can "naturally" age 6061 to T-4. It's NOT really age hardenable aluminum but the weld areas will be a different hardness unless he started with T-0


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

...


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

sfgirlonbike said:


> ...


I don't know whether to laugh, or cry


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> ...


That's depressing isn't it.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> That's depressing isn't it.


I thought that was your garage....


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

hollister said:


> I don't know whether to laugh, or cry


I think I see a Paramount Road bike in there


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> I thought that was your garage....


Hey now. Seriously though, not even close. I have way better lighting.. 

I am finishing up a number of my rigs and will be posting pics and taking them out to see the local hills.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> I think I see a Paramount Road bike in there


ok, now I'm laughing...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

crconsulting said:


> I think I see a Paramount Road bike in there


is it for sale?


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

sfgirlonbike said:


> is it for sale?


LOL! absolutely AND It's had a value added upgrade.......


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Thousands that wished they could have been on the waiting list, myself included. I was but a teenager in the heyday of Cunningham, but boy did I drool and lust.


In 1984 I too lusted after and wanted a Cunningham. I had pictures, but at $3,600.00................


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> After you weld T6061 the correct process is to ANNEAL it. "Heat Treating" is a typically referred to as hardening process but technically you are "heat treating" to anneal also. When you weld T6061 aluminum it changes the temper of the aluminum actually hardening the welded areas inconsistently as ambient temperatures are difficult to control creating stresses around the welded joint. Thus one of the reasons why aluminum typically fails AROUND a properly welded tube. In the aerospace biz all correctly welded applications of 6061 calling for it to be "brought back" to their original state go thru this process effectively making everything a consistent "softness". This can also be considered "Stress Relieving".
> 
> A lot of people skip that last process in other businesses.   One of the reasons that makes Charlie's bikes "special".
> 
> ...


http://www.wombats.org/rivendell.pdf

He explains how he came up with his methods for frame building


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

IF52 said:


> http://www.wombats.org/rivendell.pdf
> 
> He explains how he came up with his methods for frame building


very cool :thumbsup:

Thanks!


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

hollister said:


> I bet we never see anymore pictures of the bike...
> 
> wheres my camera...


I suppose I could stop by, but I don't have a camera.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> 6061 is FAR from soft....
> 
> edit: after reading the article in mombat.org it looks like he's (Charlie) talking about bringing the frame to T6 or maybe T8 state AFTER welding but its unclear in the article exactly what hardness exactly.
> 
> ...


6061 is really easy to work with in an annealed state and soft is a relative term. If you've ever had a frame on an alignment table before and after heat treatment you'll know what I'm talking about.

6061 does age harden, but it takes a long time. This is how a large percentage of Asian built frames are done in the shipping process, or so I've been told.

As I'm sure you know as a metal gets harder it gets more brittle which is not a good characteristic for a mountain bike frame. Builders have experimented with various heat treating and getting the numbers harder and found T-6 to be a good balance. I'm still trying to see what Charlie was doing differently to other aluminum builders.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

themanmonkey said:


> 6061 is really easy to work with in an annealed state and soft is a relative term..


I agree but it seems to me that bikes (at least the ones I have owned made out of 6061) are relatively soft, example my American Breezer. I've bent the dropouts and derailleur hanger on that bike more than a few times and bent them back relatively easily. I can almost guarantee that bike is not T-6.



themanmonkey said:


> 6061 does age harden, but it takes a long time. This is how a large percentage of Asian built frames are done in the shipping process, or so I've been told.


You are correct If you start with T-6 but (T-0 will not). I believe it will return to a T-4 state (eventually). I was assuming the frames were made from T-0 which typically what you start with in the aero biz. You would start with T-0 then treat from there to desire hardness or bring it back to T-0.



themanmonkey said:


> As I'm sure you know as a metal gets harder it gets more brittle which is not a good characteristic for a mountain bike frame.


Which is why I figured soft, but this doesn't sound like the case. But, If you felt how soft the American frames are, you may agree that they are pretty soft. I would much rather have something flex than crack. But as you mentioned, I'm sure there is a balance. I'm not ready to start bending my Cunningham but I can tell you they do dent relatively easily. More than I would expect if it was T-6, but this is subjective.



themanmonkey said:


> Builders have experimented with various heat treating and getting the numbers harder and found T-6 to be a good balance. I'm still trying to see what Charlie was doing differently to other aluminum builders.


I bet you're right as far as an engineering balance I'm not a frame builder (or welder) just a machinist. but have cut my share of welded metal. Just curious, (not trying to be a smart ass  just curious bike construction) I really haven't seen too many bikes spec'd at T-6 usually all I see is 6061

Do you have any examples?

another hijacked thread, I know


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> Which is why I figured soft, but this doesn't sound like the case. But, If you felt how soft the American frames are, you may agree that they are pretty soft. I would much rather have something flex than crack. But as you mentioned, I'm sure there is a balance. I'm not ready to start bending my Cunningham but I can tell you they do dent relatively easily. More than I would expect if it was T-6, but this is subjective.


You dent my Cunningham, I denta you head.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Maybe he'll get you all fired up with a WIW post!

-Schmitty-

ps 10.5k Dude, if you want to spend the rest of your days in MT, pm me.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

bushpig said:


> You dent my Cunningham, I denta you head.


LOL!!!!

Maybe I should rephrase that "I've seen them dent"


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> ... I really haven't seen too many bikes spec'd at T-6 usually all I see is 6061


Most Asian built frames are specified to be T6 and the testing I've had done have confirmed this. And they don't get to T6 sitting in a container for the 2 week boat ride, but are heat treated in massive ovens on the premises.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Most Asian built frames are specified to be T6 and the testing I've had done have confirmed this. And they don't get to T6 sitting in a container for the 2 week boat ride, but are heat treated in massive ovens on the premises.


Interesting....

I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing as far as reliability is concerned. I believe the cost of bulk tubing for T-6 is cheaper. but it sounds like T-6 is the standard because once their in the oven you can pretty much bring them to whatever.

I wonder if american custom builders are also using T-6 or are they going softer?

anyways thanks for confirming :thumbsup:



ssmike said:


> And they don't get to T6 sitting in a container for the 2 week boat ride, but are heat treated in massive ovens on the premises.


Yea I believe once you weld T-6 it will come back to T-4 max. (if your lucky, but it's inconsistent sometimes its softer in areas)


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> I wonder if american custom builders are also using T-6 or are they going softer?


The goal for custom builders I've talked to is T-6 if using 6000 series aluminum. You guys might find some good info on this thread and another over at Frameforum.org. Here's a MTBR thread from when I was first looking to first working with aluminum, and another relevant one.

A lot of the smaller custom builders are, or were, using 7000 series since the heat treating is so much easier. I was at Cannondale a couple weeks back and tried to get some info on their HT process, but the guy giving the tour didn't know much. I've found that the bike industry in general has a tendency to play pretty fast and loose when it comes to the rules of production and material science.

So this post isn't a total hijack. I think $10,000 really isn't that bad if you've seen some of the prices paid for lightweight and balloon tire bikes over the years. Classic MTBs are really cheap in comparison.


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

themanmonkey said:


> So this post isn't a total hijack. I think $10,000 really isn't that bad if you've seen some of the prices paid for lightweight and balloon tire bikes over the years. Classic MTBs are really cheap in comparison.


Not to mention vintage Freestyle/BMX. And have you checked out skateboards? Now _there's_ an investment.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

No BMX, but still have four of my complete 70's vintage Skateboards. Never could get rid of those things.


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## bmxcollector (Nov 21, 2006)

It is an absolute shame that this bike is leaving the US. Once they're gone they tend to stay gone.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2009)

bmxcollector said:


> It is an absolute shame that this bike is leaving the US. Once they're gone they tend to stay gone.


that type of comment is exactly the reason why those who aquire and preserve these bikes outside the holy mother land don't like to share them on here.

Carsten


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## bmxcollector (Nov 21, 2006)

Really?? People that in to old bikes are that thin skinned? Maybe it's just you. If I hurt any non-American's feelings I'm really really sorry. Please don't be afraid to show your precious American made gems I promise not to send a squad of commando's to re-patriate your bikes. 

I hope that those that put any thought in to my statement can understand why I'm sad to see something like a Cunningham sail off.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Not meaning to out an auction ... but something fishy's going on. Same description, same misspellings, subset of the same pics, different seller. Go find it yourself


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Carsten said:


> that type of comment is exactly the reason why those who aquire and preserve these bikes outside the holy mother land don't like to share them on here.
> 
> Carsten


I don't think thats the case here. The new owner doesn't post (or post pics) all that often here.

He might more on MTB-News.de?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I don't think thats the case here. The new owner doesn't post (or post pics) all that often here.
> 
> He might more on MTB-News.de?


I'm guessing he's saying there's another auction that looks identical to the previous one. Happens frequently with the high dollar bike auctions. There was a Potts that went up for sale about 5 times a year or two ago. Frauds.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I'm guessing he's saying there's another auction that looks identical to the previous one. Happens frequently with the high dollar bike auctions. There was a Potts that went up for sale about 5 times a year or two ago. Frauds.


You're right .. but I think ER was replying to a post before mine.


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## Z-Man (Apr 25, 2005)

wv_bob said:


> Not meaning to out an auction ... but something fishy's going on. Same description, same misspellings, subset of the same pics, different seller. Go find it yourself


So much cheaper too, I don't care if he has 0 feedback... I'm IN!!!!!


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