# Cheating and liking it....



## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

This is posted in eBikes and Fat Bikes

Happy Cheater
If you think it is okay for a 70 +year old to ride an ebike on mountain bike trails, then read on.

Another bike wasn't really needed in the garage, ebike or otherwise... but if a "last bike" was to be constructed for an old guy and truly be the "last bike" built, it needed to be special.

Timing is everything and after many months of shopping a NEW carbon full suspension frame that was large and strong enough for 6'-4" geezer showed up. The frame from XM Carbon Speed In Stock! CS-001 newest full suspension fat bike frame 26er for 177*12mm axle - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd fit the parameters because its lower frame spacing would allow the motor to be mounted above the crankset. That is not saying the current favorite Purple Mountain bike with a Bafang BBS-HD is not awesome, but the BBS-HD motor slightly below the crankset does some dirt excavating and bark trimming a little too often.

The chance to buy carbon parts "directly" from persons with excellent online reviews was a deal not to pass up. It was good to find out that all good things said about Peter and Bella at XM Carbon Speed were true. They answered questions promptly and carefully packed/shipped the frame fast. The frame fit and finish is excellent and it was easy to mount existing components from other bikes to XM with no issues. The wheels are of equally excellent and are easy setup for tubeless. It would be more honest to say the wheels were actually exceptional, as they were the easiest 4.5" tubeless setup ever installed. Using only one layer of 75mm Orange Seal tape and 46mm valve stems, they actually held air for over a day before adding the liquid sealer (don't use goralla tape, it is too heavy and thick)FHR80C-35mm 2016 Super tough Carbon Speed - Fat Club 80mm fat bike rims 80mm width 35mm depth - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd

Someone may be saying this excellent bike is being ruined by adding an electric motor? That is much easier to say if you are not over 70 with years of too many crashes. Luna Cycles sells a Cyclone 3000 motor that offers the flexibility necessary to build the inside frame configuration. Although motor has more power than needed, custom mounting brackets would allow the motor to be mounted inside the frame for better ground clearance. The package is topped off with 52 volts with 16 amp hours of HobbyKing LiPo Multi-Rotor Drone batteries installed in a hydration backpack. The backpack without water is only about 14 pounds and the bike rolling weight is less than 48#. Which is excellent for a large 21" frame full suspension electric mountain having 4.5" tires with a motor cranking out more torque than an old 250cc dirt bike. The motor could handle 72 volts, but that power could make it a unicycle rather than a woods bike.

Bottomline, the strength of the XM Carbon Speed full suspension fat bike frame combined with awesome Cyclone power this may be the ultimate geriatric
mountain bike.

See picture of the eCarbon and the Purple Mountain it updates

​


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

exi said:


> If you think it is okay for a 70 +year old to ride an ebike on mountain bike trails, then read on.


I think that's great as long as those mtb trails are also moto accessible. I don't think this thread belongs in the 50+ mountain bike forum though.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think that's great as long as those mtb trails are also moto accessible. I don't think this thread belongs in the 50+ mountain bike forum though.


I do.

As you get older and frailer, you either give up your outdoor pursuits or you use some assistance. Giving up is the taking a step towards the final solution...

I'm lucky enough at 70+ to still be riding singlespeed and doing 24 hour events, but I know full well those years are numbered. I've had a big layoff this year for an injury I would have shrugged off 10 years ago so it's very pertinent as far as I'm concerned.

Discussion on assisted bikes for our age group is stuff I want to hear because there's no way I'm stopping going out as long as I can sling a leg over a bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> I do.


Isn't there an electric bike forum for that? And actually this thread might not totally belong there either because that's a full blown motorcycle.

No worries though, mtbr will probably have an *'old man/souped up motorbike with pedals'* sub-forum coming soon!


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## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

eCarbon is for fun, the Purple Mountain bike with a virtually silent BBS-HD motor provides me with several 10-15 mile PEDAL ASSISTED rides each week over terrain that in all honesty I could not walk. Sounds lame and I expect many on this forum would suggest watching TV, but on the tails I most generally receive encouragement and questions. 

The bonus is... I now spend hours in the woods covering more distance, seeing places, things and critters that I never saw when pedalling at 55. 

The bad news... If something breaks down, 10 miles woods is a long-long walk. But no worries, satellite tracking will help them find my body... if they want to


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## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

Velobike said:


> I do.
> 
> As you get older and frailer, you either give up your outdoor pursuits or you use some assistance. Giving up is the taking a step towards the final solution...
> 
> ...


I agree. The older you get, you need more assistance, its just a fact of life. This 50+ forum is a good place to chat about geezer rides, bikes and riding. Maybe thats why I'm also hip to the 29er because it pedals way easier than the others and I encourage any 50+ rider to get one.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Isn't there an electric bike forum for that? And actually this thread might not totally belong there either because that's a full blown motorcycle.
> 
> No worries though, mtbr will probably have an *'old man/souped up motorbike with pedals'* sub-forum coming soon!


I'm not interested in electric bikes, I have a motorbike for that sort of riding.

Having ridden an assisted eBike I can see one in my future, so I do think it is an appropriate discussion in this forum with reference to our age group.

Bear in mind this forum is intended to have a world-wide reach, and there are many countries where assisted e-Bikes are not only legal on the trails but people are encouraged to use them to remain active. Free access to the countryside is a wonderful freedom and it's a shame it's not universal because it is one of the fundamental freedoms IMO.

It would be nice to have a discussion about them relevant to our age group without all the what-aboutery. Anything that extends the active life of the elderly (that's us) is going to improve the quality of our lives and possible extend it. There comes a time when you can't train yourself into fitness.

None of the negatives that I have seen get thrown up against assisted eBikes from time to time on mtbr by the anti eBike people actually seems to happen in real life in places where they are permitted.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fatcat said:


> I agree. The older you get, you need more assistance, its just a fact of life.


Mid 50's and I need less assistance now than at any other time in my life. Evidently it's not a fact of life.



Velobike said:


> I'm not interested in electric bikes, I have a motorbike for that sort of riding.


Um, an e-bike is an electric bike. I don't know where you're from but here in the US every citizen _does_ have free and complete access to the countryside, and we have a lot of it for everyone. Motors and feet both have their place here.

I'm just saying that this is the 50+ *mountain bike* forum, not the infirmary forum and 50+ doesn't mean you can't pedal. Possibly not as steep of grades or as long of distances as you once did but pedaling none the less. When I can no longer handle singletrack I'll stick to pavement, or walk. I can't imagine being too unfit to pedal yet fit enough to handle rough trails with a motor.

And as little interest as I personally have in one I'm in no way anti-electric bike.


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## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

Is fitness and arthritis clinically the same when it comes to physical therapy? If so we really need give or doctors better training. Why I wasn't told its all about my imagination


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## Iowagriz (Jan 14, 2008)

JB - slight counterpoint to the following



J.B. Weld said:


> ....Um, an e-bike is an electric bike. I don't know where you're from but here in the US every citizen _does_ have free and complete access to the countryside, and we have a lot of it for everyone. Motors and feet both have their place here.
> tric bike.


Open access to miles and miles of trails in the Western US. However, in the Midwest, we have had to claw and scratch just to get trails, then we built these with our own sweat equity. These trails are closed to any "motorized vehicle". Bikes are vehicles, electric bikes are motorized vehicles. They have specific ORV Parks for the moto's in the Midwest, this is the harsh reality of living in the bread basket, where the majority of the land is private and used for farming.

At somepoint, I'll move back west and gladly share the trails with horses, motos, e-bikes and hikers. But in the Midwest, users should respect the rules for the various and limited trails that are available.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Mid 50's and I need less assistance now than at any other time in my life. Evidently it's not a fact of life.
> 
> Um, an e-bike is an electric bike. I don't know where you're from but here in the US every citizen _does_ have free and complete access to the countryside, and we have a lot of it for everyone. Motors and feet both have their place here.
> 
> ...





> Mid 50's and I need less assistance now than at any other time in my life. Evidently it's not a fact of life.


Ever heard the expression "one swallow doesn't make a summer"?

It's wonderful you're still fit. Now look around at your age group in the whole population. Is that true? Be marvellous if it is.



> Um, an e-bike is an electric bike.


 Sorry, a semantics issue.

I'll define what e-Bike means here in Europe. A bike with a limitation on its maximum power (250watts in the UK, may be different but not by much in the rest of Europe), where power is only applied as assistance when the rider is actually pedalling (no throttles), and with a cut out speed (15 mph in the UK, varies slightly elsewhere in the EU). Once over the limitation speed there is absolutely no assistance.

Anything that does not comply with that is regarded as a motorbike and subject to the rules and restrictions on those. An eBike here is treated by law in the same way as an ordinary bicycle.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your rights of access in the USA. My information on that is gleaned from MTBR, so I was under the impression that you had to pay for access to your national parks and had no rights to ride bicycles on trails unless they were specifically allowed. I'm sure I keep seeing mention of rangers stopping folk riding their mtbs in various parks.

In Scotland we have what is called the right to roam. Free access everywhere in the countryside so long as we are human powered (ie on foot, bicycle, boat), and we also have the right to wild camp. The restrictions on this are basically good manners. You don't pass too close to someone's house, you don't trample crops, you don't frighten animals, and you leave as little trace as possible. Getting permission for access or paying for it is not the same as freedom of access.



> this is the 50+ *mountain bike* forum, not the infirmary forum and 50+ doesn't mean you can't pedal


I really have no polite way to respond to that.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Ride whatever you want. Just do it where it's legal.

In Arizona 85%+ of land is publicly owned so access is almost unlimited.

In Pennsylvania 85% of land is privately owned. Access by right is substantially less.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi All:

J.B., I think you have a valid point, but I can see the flip side too (that e-assisted bikes may be the only way for VERY old people to still enjoy the sport on trails). This would probably be an appropriate thread for the Electric Bikes forum, but it really straddles both.

If nothing else, I think this one thread is okay remaining here (as long as it doesn't spawn a host of other e-bike threads, which will get moved).

Seems to me like the question of whether a bike that *helps* you pedal trails should be classified as a "motorized vehicle" is a good one to discuss (but again—probably not in this forum outside this thread)—versus a bike that requires zero work from the rider whatsoever.

That sound fair? 

Scott

EDITED to add: I'm of the opinion that an e-bike requiring zero pedaling all day, with the power of a 250cc offroad motorcycle, capable of going anywhere, is definitely NOT a mountain bike. (And therefore shouldn't be discussed here.) I'm not sure exactly what the "e" capabilities of the OP's bike are?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

SWriverstone said:


> EDITED to add: I'm of the opinion that an e-bike requiring zero pedaling all day, with the power of a 250cc offroad motorcycle, capable of going anywhere, is definitely NOT a mountain bike. (And therefore shouldn't be discussed here.) I'm not sure exactly what the "e" capabilities of the OP's bike are?


His lower powered bike has a BBSHD which is a 1500w motor with a 750w stamp on it. Most people pretend it's legal because of the stamp, but the guy who sells them is very up front about it:



Eric Luna;n5871 said:


> I agree it is a bit misleading how the chinese rate their motors...... its true that they usually underrate their motors.
> 
> For example the bbshd is called a 1000 watt even through it is known that it is 1500 watt system.


Disappointed with Cyclone 3000 - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

His higher powered bike has a 3000w Cyclone motor.

Pedalling is optional with either.

BBSHD





3000w cyclone









Neither of these motorized bikes are anything close to a 250w EU legal pedelec and even the BBSHD is barely *nudge nudge wink wink* legal in the US. It's fools on bikes like his who will ruin it for the ebike community and possibly impact the mtb community as well.

For the record, I'm 54 and I think ebikes are great vehicles in appropriate places. As long as the OP is riding his mopeds there, more power to him. I don't think non motorized trails are appropriate for any motorized vehicle, no matter what you call it. Nor do I think age is a disability that grants you a free pass. I'll ride bikes as long as it is both fun and I am able, otherwise I'll do something else.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

As long as the trail is designated for ebikes, motorcycles, tanks, whatever, ride them. I'm 64. I consider cheating to be putting 2.5" Minions on my 25 y.o. son's bike front and back, with a pint of Stan's in them (just to "help him out") while I run 2.25" Racing Ralphs.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SWriverstone said:


> Hi All:
> J.B., I think you have a valid point, but I can see the flip side too (that e-assisted bikes may be the only way for VERY old people to still enjoy the sport on trails).


I don't buy that argument, the trails I'm talking about can get pretty rough and I can't imagine an old frail person attempting to navigate trails that require good balance, (upper body) strength and skill to come out unscathed, the ability to produce power to the wheel is only part of the equation. Nothing against old people (I'm one) but there are plenty of alternatives already in place, smooth level trails, bike paths, parks, etc, and I'm already eyeing them for future times. If I'm lucky enough to get there.



Velobike said:


> Sorry, a semantics issue.


Kind of a stretch eh? I'll go with the definition that's been universally accepted for the last 150 years or so, not the one conjured up by bureaucrats and lawyers recently.

_bi·cy·cle
ˈbīsək(ə)l/
noun
1.
a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
synonyms:	bike, cycle, two-wheeler, mountain bike, ten-speed, racing bike, recumbent, fixie; _

As for the ailment concerns I have a few of my own but am thankful for what I have and know it's temporary, everyone must eventually succumb to time.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

These aren't pedal-assist ebikes, they're electric mopeds or electric motorcycles. Not on bicycle only trails, don't care how old a person is.

BBSHD





3000w cyclone


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## Blackies Pasture (Mar 3, 2015)

MSU Alum said:


> As long as the trail is designated for ebikes, motorcycles, tanks, whatever, ride them. I'm 64. I consider cheating to be putting 2.5" Minions on my 25 y.o. son's bike front and back, with a pint of Stan's in them (just to "help him out") while I run 2.25" Racing Ralphs.


awesome.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Mid 50's and I need less assistance now than at any other time in my life. Evidently it's not a fact of life.
> 
> Um, an e-bike is an electric bike. I don't know where you're from but here in the US every citizen _does_ have free and complete access to the countryside, and we have a lot of it for everyone. Motors and feet both have their place here.
> 
> ...


Mid fifties is a far stretch from being seventy, don't be a twit, you'll find yourself eating those words in a few years.

As the saying goes, until you can walk miles in these shoes...

The "fact" is you will get old, "you" will need more assistance, and you will still want to ride.

When those facts become your reality, no one will be suprised but you


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

So, is the OP saying that just because someone is old, they have a right to ride an ebike on trails designed for mountain bikes, hikers and equestrians?

Can you guys not see that his two posts here are clearly SPAM.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> The "fact" is you will get old, "you" will need more assistance, and you will still want to ride.
> 
> When those facts become your reality, no one will be suprised but you


Surprised? Get off your high horse.



J.B. Weld said:


> As for the ailment concerns I have a few of my own but am thankful for what I have and know it's temporary, everyone must eventually succumb to time.


MCS is totally right, op is just a troll.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> MCS is totally right, op is just a troll.


Probably uhoh07


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, is the OP saying that just because someone is old, they have a right to ride an ebike on trails designed for mountain bikes, hikers and equestrians?
> 
> Can you guys not see that his two posts here are clearly SPAM.


That being said, if he changed his saddle his bike would easily drop to sub 40 pounds.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Iowagriz said:


> Open access to miles and miles of trails in the Western US. However, in the Midwest, we have had to claw and scratch just to get trails, then we built these with our own sweat equity. These trails are closed to any "motorized vehicle". Bikes are vehicles, electric bikes are motorized vehicles. They have specific ORV Parks for the moto's in the Midwest, this is the harsh reality of living in the bread basket, where the majority of the land is private and used for farming.


So true^ good mountain biking is pretty thin there and that's the exact reason I left Iowa and headed west.


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

by calling it "cheating" i think the climate was set for the writing.

i see an old..really old guy riding the "paved" trails around here. he is all smiles and waves at me, and he cracks me up. he got is much younger wife one two. i say if it keeps them moving any at all, i'm all for it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Agreed, it was a troll post, but I always see these as an opportunity to illustrate to those who likely do not know that the pitch of "hey there's no problem with ebikes in Europe, it'll be the same here" isn't based on the reality of our far different legistation and political climate. 

There will be two general groups of riders that emtbs will appeal to, the early adopters of old slow guys (and their wives) and young guys who want to go fast. Just like with mtb riders, the first group won't cause many problems, the second group will. We already have enough problems with idiots riding too fast in the wrong places, why is giving them a motor so they can ride faster on non motorized trails a good idea?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

It's not a good idea. In fact it's a horrible idea. It should be very simple. Any bike that is anything but human powered should not be an trails unless those trails are for motor vehicles or the trails are on private property. They should never be allowed on trails that are for bicycles, hikers or equestrians or any combination of those three. Just because you are old or have some kind of disability, shouldn't give you the right to ride one of these bikes on our mountain bike trails.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Has anyone who lives in the parts of the world where *assisted* eBikes are allowed seen any signs of trail armageddon yet?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Velobike said:


> Has anyone who lives in the parts of the world where *assisted* eBikes are allowed seen any signs of trail armageddon yet?


Problem is trails are different in many places, and many, especially in Europe, may already be open to motorized vehicles, and are already bombed out. How about we err on the side of caution when it comes to adding motorized traffic to our narrow American old school mtb singletracks?


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Saw a two paged ad in the October 2016 Mountain Bike Action magazine for a Specialzed ebike. 

Frankly, I was bummed to see that as MB Action has a separate magazine dedicated to the ebike. 

BTW, I'm 54, healthy and wouldn't be caught dead on an ebike. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

ravewoofer said:


> Saw a two paged ad in the October 2016 Mountain Bike Action magazine for a Specialzed ebike.
> 
> Frankly, I was bummed to see that as MB Action has a separate magazine dedicated to the ebike.
> 
> ...


That's because you're not lazy, you have integrity and you care that our trails aren't getting destroyed and closed.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> Mid fifties is a far stretch from being seventy, don't be a twit, you'll find yourself eating those words in a few years.
> 
> As the saying goes, until you can walk miles in these shoes...
> 
> ...


 My assistance is soft suspension, a thermos of coffee and spinning some low gears until I puke or rest. Not poaching trails closed to motorized vehicles that I have built and transformed the dirt for the last 15 years.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Velobike said:


> Has anyone who lives in the parts of the world where *assisted* eBikes are allowed seen any signs of trail armageddon yet?


 Not allowed in MA on state parks and forests. Not legally anyway. Still see them for sale. Can't wait until I see the first one at the trail head at one of my locals. I'm sure a "conversation" will follow. Unlike the UK, we don't have the free right to go where ever with what ever we want. In New England we have a mishmash of laws, regulations, local land managers, public parks, private lands, town and county owned properties all with their own sets of rules and regulations. Some not even allowing mt biking at all, or on just a limited basis. Also there is illegal ORV and dirt bike use as well. I'm sure the e motorcycles will just cause more issues. Trail armageddon? They will be shut down to all wheeled users before then.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm waiting for one of the ebike manufacturers to make the Hester Prynne model...

Bunch of cheaters. 

Might as well put a scarlet A on the head tube while you're at it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nunzio (Aug 28, 2016)

ravewoofer said:


> Saw a two paged ad in the October 2016 Mountain Bike Action magazine for a Specialzed ebike.
> 
> Frankly, I was bummed to see that as MB Action has a separate magazine dedicated to the ebike.
> 
> ...


As someone who had surgery on both shoulders and can no longer ride any of my 7 vintage motorcycles I had to respond.
Healthy is the Key word!!!
When you are no longer able to do the things you love you... WILL.... find the closest, best, next thing.
I'll be on two wheels.... it's just on a bicycle...Would I rather be on one of my old motorcycles..YES!!!!!!!!
Am I going to just sit around...Heck No!!!
If you love biking..you'll find a way even if it means an ebike!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Surprised? Get off your high horse.
> 
> MCS is totally right, op is just a troll.


No high horse here, I work in gero, I spend a lot of time with old folks, mid fifty ain't old.

My point is valid, it takes a person wise beyond their years to look around at other people and anticipate their future. The "twit" will get it some day and he'll remember my comment...unless he's demented 

Most of the ebike debate is saber rattling.

I ride all over the west and I have seen a grand total of one ebike on the trail; my wife's.

Like anything, being irresponsible is not the fault of the product.

I'd sooner see horses banned from the trails, post holing, breaking down shoulders, double widing trails, leaving droppings everywhere, bringing their flies and their overweight hosts.

Yeah, ebikes are such a huge problem.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> No high horse here, I work in gero, I spend a lot of time with old folks, mid fifty ain't old.
> ...Like anything, being irresponsible is not the fault of the product.
> 
> I'd sooner see horses banned from the trails, post holing, breaking down shoulders, double widing trails, leaving droppings everywhere, bringing their flies and their overweight hosts...


MTB assisted eBikes have been on our trails here in Scotland (legally) for over 5 years.

I have not seen any damage that can be attributed to them. The places I do see damage are where the local heroes tear up the downhill bits of the track with their slides, jumps, and heavy braking, and there's also posthole damage from horses.

As for speed, the travelling marshalls circulate on them in one of our local races and they cannot keep up with the elite racers on the climbs or the downhills. (Don't forget, assisted eBike = power limiters and speed cutout).

We don't see the rabid scumbags tearing around on apocalyptic eMotorbikes that seem to plague the USA riders imagination. Maybe ours are not satisfied with inadequately powered low range high priced overweight eMotorbikes.

Actually we very rarely see evidence of motorbike presence on our trails, and where I have seen it, it is usually trials motorbikes transiting to sections at low speeds leaving no damage, so I'd not complain about that.

I have friends who suffer the infirmities of age that have had to give up bikes. The realities for them would be the easy trails but the exercise would have to be beneficial.

It's unfortunate the thread has descended into a hatefest because I opened the thread I was hoping to hear examples of the therapeutic uses of assisted eBikes.

Maybe we need a 65+ group for this sort of discussion, because when you hit 70+ you realise that 50-60 isn't really where age hits.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> Has anyone who lives in the parts of the world where *assisted* eBikes are allowed seen any signs of trail armageddon yet?


The thing is you could fit 126 Scotlands inside US borders so there's room for both human powered _and_ motorized trails here. What's the problem with that?



Nurse Ben said:


> mid fifty ain't old.


Tell that to a 16 year old. Statistically my life is 3/4 over and as a pragmatist I consider that to be old.

Electric bikes are brand new (here) so of course they're not a problem, yet. Is it wise to judge their potential based on the few that are out there now?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

With respect to age....

It is more realistic to count down after 60....

Most people are pretty useless at 75 to 80...

So at 60 you are down to 15 to twenty years....

70 down to 5 to 10 years....

Kinda puts it in a more realistic light.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Velobike said:


> (Don't forget, assisted eBike = power limiters and speed cutout).


Really? From what I guage from the this UK bike forum, where for the most part the ebike riders are very conscious of the damage modded bikes could do to their access, it's hardly underground.

Speed Pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs & overseas | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

And the problems it can cause:

Off-road ebikes could be banned due to removal of speed limitations by "irresponsible dealers" - MBR

Singletrack Magazine | eBikes Could Be Banned - Says UK Distributor

Selling E-Bike Tuning Kits; Implications & Legalities

Modding a 250w/16mph emtb is one thing, hotrodding a 750w/20mph emtb is another, which is what we are facing.

Same bike, same battery, simply change the settings in your controller to go from 750-1500w.

Luna Giant BBSHD Full Suspension Ebike - Luna Cycle


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Respectfully, however it's done in Scotland has zero bearing on whether e-mtbs will be or should be allowed on non-motorized hiking/bicycle trails in the US. 

If ebikes should be allowed anywhere then why not bikes with a cute little gas engine??? The tech to make it pedal-assist only is probably out there...it's a slippery slope.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Really? From what I guage from the this UK bike forum, where for the most part the ebike riders are very conscious of the damage modded bikes could do to their access, it's hardly underground...[/url]


Those are referring to England. They do not have open access anything like we do in Scotland, so a large population is riding around on limited trails which leads to conflicts.

(Scotland has a separate legal system to England although both countries are part of the United Kingdom.)

It looks like USA riders don't want eBikes on their trails. Fair enough, your country.



azjeff said:


> Respectfully, however it's done in Scotland has zero bearing on whether e-mtbs will be or should be allowed on non-motorized hiking/bicycle trails in the US...


But there's the rest of the world for this international forum.

My interest in this thread isn't access, it's the benefits or otherwise of an assisted eBike to an aged/infirm person who can no longer cycle.

Let's just assume that that will be on trails in countries where it is allowed so we don't have to worry about the whataboutery or theoretical monster Tesla bikes.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Velobike said:


> MTB assisted eBikes have been on our trails here in Scotland (legally) for over 5 years.
> 
> I have not seen any damage that can be attributed to them. The places I do see damage are where the local heroes tear up the downhill bits of the track with their slides, jumps, and heavy braking, and there's also posthole damage from horses.
> 
> ...


This is what I'd expect, what we are actually experencing in America is, as usual, mostly posturing and alarmism. It's a shame America has become the voice of global alarmism, semes to be the political them for 2016.

As to the horses, that ****e is real.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

> Tell that to a 16 year old. Statistically my life is 3/4 over and as a pragmatist I consider that to be old.
> 
> Electric bikes are brand new (here) so of course they're not a problem, yet. Is it wise to judge their potential based on the few that are out there now?


It's certainly not wise to judge something a failure before it's happened, esp when there are models elsewhere that don't support your view.

It might also benefit your world view if you thought about the quality of life than the quantity. A sixteen year old has a long life ahead of them, people don't generally value things that are bountiful, whereas a person in the "golden years" understands the value of the things that are fleeting or no longer their's to have.

We all die, it's a shame to spend that time spreading negativism and promoting disagreement. Like many things in life, change is easy to dislike, but hard to resist.

Let's talk again in twenty years


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Velobike said:


> My interest in this thread isn't access, it's the benefits or otherwise of an assisted eBike to an aged/infirm person who can no longer cycle.
> 
> Let's just assume that that will be on trails in countries where it is allowed so we don't have to worry about the whataboutery or theoretical monster Tesla bikes.


If you don't have an access problem with ebikes on your trails what was the question again? Sure, why not ride one if that's what the old coot wants to do? Kinda like when the old motorcyclist can no longer balance he gets a trike. Wait... e-mtb trikes...:thumbsup:

BTW, spent a month in St. Andrews in my youth. Love to go back.

Edit:

Ben, you know guys are going to mod emtbs and ride them irresponsibly and user conflicts are going to happen. The bikes in those Youtube vids that go quite well uphill with no pedaling prove what's already available. That's where this is all headed.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

azjeff said:


> If you don't have an access problem with ebikes on your trails what was the question again? ...


To quote myself ...


> it's the benefits or otherwise of an assisted eBike to an aged/infirm person who can no longer cycle.


eg is there a physical benefit from the low threshold exercise, or is the benefit just an improvement in morale for getting out in the countryside?

Edit: I'll be out of the loop for a while. I'm off to ride my singlespeed in an event about 500 miles away. Be back Monday.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> We all die, it's a shame to spend that time spreading negativism and promoting disagreement. Like many things in life, change is easy to dislike, but hard to resist.
> 
> Let's talk again in twenty years


I think you must be misinterpreting me, most likely due to my lack of skills behind the keyboard, and though we disagree I don't believe i'm spreading negativism any more than you are. Several times I've posted the virtues of enjoying what you have while you can because good health is nothing to be taken for granted, and although I do have a laundry list of ailments I _could_ complain about I realize I'm fortunate to be as healthy as I am and that it won't last forever.

I totally disagree with you about electric bikes, not because I think they're bad or evil but because they're in a different class than bicycles, feet, horses, deer, etc. IMHO. I repeat, I don't think they're bad, just different. Motors make them different. There is a place for everything, bicycles don't belong on every hiking trail and electric bikes don't belong on every mountain bike trail. No amount of aging or inevitable degradation will change my mind, and I'm pretty sure that aging mountain bikers will only comprise a small portion of the eventual e-bike population anyway so I think it's foolish to base policies based on that.

If you view that perspective as hateful or negative then I give up for now, but I'll be happy to talk again in 20 years if we're both fortunate enough to make it there.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Velobike said:


> Those are referring to England. They do not have open access anything like we do in Scotland, so a large population is riding around on limited trails which leads to conflicts.
> 
> (Scotland has a separate legal system to England although both countries are part of the United Kingdom.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification on the Scotland/UK differences.

I have mixed feelings on the benefits of continuing to ride for the aged and infirm, on one hand, sure it sounds good on the surface, what's not to like? On the other, if you aren't capable of riding within your physical limits on a mtb, it's probably not safe for you to do it artifically. Would you be able to muscle around a 45lb ebike? Fare OK in a crash? My plan is to taper off in distance and technical riding as my limits reduce and increase riding on the road. If I had a motor, I'm sure I'd be tempted to ride stuff over my head since it would feel like I could get away with it and likely get myself in trouble.


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## nunzio (Aug 28, 2016)

I like bunnies


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

nunzio said:


> You feel that way about the Handicapped?
> You think it's foolish to base policies on a small portion of the population.


Did I say handicapped?

Just for the record- I have friends who are handicapped. I have friends that are old. I'm old. I like bunnies.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

As I see it, you have to draw the line somewhere or it is no longer mountain biking. 

Let's say the pedal assist bikes are allowed on mountain bike trails. What happens when these riders get older and can no longer ride even with these bikes? Do we then allow more powerful motors so they can continue to ride? What if their balance goes, widen the trails so that they can ride a 3 or 4 wheel "bike"? And what if the rocks and roots are making it too difficult for them to ride, pave the trail?

I certainly don't look forward to the day I can no longer mountain bike. But just as I've made adjustment in my riding as I've aged, I've slowed down to a less crashy speed, there are some features I won't ride, etc,; I understand that it is a defined sport and once I can no longer ride within that definition, I will stick to pavement. 

No motor/motor is the proper place to define bike/non-bike in my opinion.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

After 50 replies this thread has gone in various directions. In case anyone has forgotten, this is the description of the ebike the OP started the thread about:

_"The package is topped off with 52 volts with 16 amp hours of HobbyKing LiPo Multi-Rotor Drone batteries installed in a hydration backpack. The backpack without water is only about 14 pounds and the bike rolling weight is less than 48#. Which is excellent for a large 21" frame full suspension electric mountain having 4.5" tires with a motor cranking out more torque than an old 250cc dirt bike. The motor could handle 72 volts, but that power could make it a unicycle rather than a woods bike."_

Sounds like pedals are optional. Have fun riding it anywhere that's open to motorized travel.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Right, the old guy thing is a fake out, so is the low power lie. They just want our trails. 

I'm 66, have problems with my knees...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bsieb said:


> I'm 66, have problems with my knees...


66? That's not old, Just wait till you hit 69! And sore knees? Don't get me started sonny, you're lucky you have knees at all! Why back in my day......


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> 66? That's not old, Just wait till you hit 69! And sore knees? Don't get me started sonny, you're lucky you have knees at all! Why back in my day......


What he said^^^ Everyone knows that at 69 you eat it.


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## nunzio (Aug 28, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> 66? That's not old, Just wait till you hit 69! And sore knees? Don't get me started sonny, you're lucky you have knees at all! Why back in my day......


Knees ...you have knees?...Luxury pure Luxury!!...Monty Python... Four Yorkshiremen Sketch


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## nunzio (Aug 28, 2016)

I just spent 14 months recovering from an injury and surgery on my shoulders.They completely remover my right rotator-cuff and repaired as best they could my left rotator-cuff.14 months of doing Nothing!!!!I will do what ever I am able to do as far as riding..I just want to be on 2 wheels.To me....this means selling all my vintage motorcycles and starting to riding bicycles.Down the road if it means all I can ride is an ebike then I'll ride an ebike.I will continue to do my best to keep on 2 wheels.If not I'll get a trike!!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

nunzio said:


> I just spent 14 months recovering from an injury and surgery on my shoulders.They completely remover my right rotator-cuff and repaired as best they could my left rotator-cuff.14 months of doing Nothing!!!!I will do what ever I am able to do as far as riding..I just want to be on 2 wheels.To me....this means selling all my vintage motorcycles and starting to riding bicycles.Down the road if it means all I can ride is an ebike then I'll ride an ebike.I will continue to do my best to keep on 2 wheels.If not I'll get a trike!!


More power to you, just ride where legal. Don't be *that guy*.


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## nunzio (Aug 28, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> More power to you, just ride where legal. Don't be *that guy*.


No problem!!!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> 66? That's not old, Just wait till you hit 69! And sore knees? Don't get me started sonny, you're lucky you have knees at all! Why back in my day......


Old enough to celebrate each day before 70. 

My spin is just getting featheryer...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> It's not a good idea. In fact it's a horrible idea. It should be very simple. Any bike that is anything but human powered should not be an trails unless those trails are for motor vehicles or the trails are on private property. They should never be allowed on trails that are for bicycles, hikers or equestrians or any combination of those three. Just because you are old or have some kind of disability, shouldn't give you the right to ride one of these bikes on our mountain bike trails.


Gee, your compassion is limitless. Makes me glad there's ADA. Ever think that some of THOSE people might be why you're allowed to ride your MTB?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

fos'l said:


> Gee, your compassion is limitless. Makes me glad there's ADA. Ever think that some of THOSE people might be why you're allowed to ride your MTB?


Actually, I can't pedal a mountain bike right now because of a medical issue. And, I have another condition that makes it a bad idea to ride a bike at all. That doesn't give me a right to get on a powered bike and go hit the trails. Americans with Disabilities Act? What does that have to do with anything. You guys act like everyone has a Constitutional right to ride the trails on whatever it takes to get them on the trails, when we are unable to do so because of old age, medical condition or injury. So, where does it stop? If you turn 90 and can't ride a bike anymore, do you expect to be allowed to have someone strap you to a 4x4 and hit the mountain bike trails? It really sucks, but there comes a time when we just can't ride anymore. There comes a time when we just can't do the things we want. Whether or not a powered bike should be allowed on our mountain bike trails shouldn't be decided because some people need help to be able to ride. If you are that unable to pedal a regular bike, you shouldn't be on off-road trails.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

It's not me; I'm fully functional (well, some may argue with that). I'm in CA and the local laws at any park where I've asked state that anyone with a physical disability (placard-type) can ride an e-MTB (some places allow three or four wheeled) on the trails. Realize that allowing it probably doesn't make it right in some minds, but does in mine. Also, CA has defined limits for e-MTB's; certain bikes ridden by anyone are permitted access in some parks.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

I'd go with one of the Specialized Turbo Levo bikes if I were investing in one...

First Ride: Specialized's Turbo Levo E-Mountain Bike | Bicycling











Test riding around the neighborhood. Sh_t eating grin from the pure fun factor...



__
https://flic.kr/p/LQUAN8
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Could be a great sled for the trail work that I do to get me from point A to point B with my tools and gear...


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## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

Did he say FUN and grinning ? From the what I have been reading here, he is on the wrong forum... happy folks are in the minority here.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

exi said:


> Did he say FUN and grinning from ear to ear?


You mean those things are fun to ride? Well why didn't you say so, that changes _everything!_


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

exi said:


> Did he say FUN and grinning from ear to ear? From the what I have been reading here, he is on the wrong forum... happy folks are in the minority here.


You haven't said much since you started this thread! People here are plenty happy to be alive and pedaling, just concerned where electric mopeds like what you built will be used. Surely you understand the concern but so far you haven't mentioned exactly what the mountain bike trails are that you ride on. I think I see a Pa plate on the car, depending on what part of the state you're in you could have great multi-use trails or not.

Is the new bike set up as pedal-assist or does it have a throttle? If throttle how fast and how steep will it climb without pedaling?

Have a blast on the new bike, all anyone asks is don't muck up trail access for others.


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## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

The Fatties electric or otherwise are much easier on the trails than skinny wheels. Frankly, after I ride over the 29r ruts and walkers muddy foot holes a few times the trail is improved. No charge, a warm thank you and a hug is good enough


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Choosing not to answer a couple of questions about your bike speaks for itself. It's your thread, you have an opportunity to advocate your responsible use and instead justify by claiming you're improving the trails. Glad you're out riding in your 8th decade.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Ride on and stay free! 

Legal or illegal. Get out there an enjoy life!!

I'm more of a roam around the neighborhood kinda guy. Some back woods are nice but I enjoy my e-bike around my neighborhood nightly for about 8 miles a trip. The pedal assist makes going up them hills a breeze where otherwise I'd put way too much pressure on my knee or would have to walk. And that's not fun for me.


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## ImaBum (Jun 1, 2014)

Do e-bikes spin the tire on dirt trails?

I can't do a burnout on my e-bike. Simply not enough torque


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Curious enough about these kits to do a little search, here's the Luna Cycle webpage for the Cyclone 3000 kit. Read the reviews... form your own opinion.

Cyclone Mid Drive 3000 watt Planetary KIT - Luna Cycle


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

There's also been clarification for the EU riders.

AVERE Clarifies Effects of New Type Approval at Eurobike Conference - Bike Europe

Looks like what I have been calling an assisted eBike is classified as a "pedelec", and therefore a bicycle for all matters pertaining to legislation.

Any other sort of electric motored two wheeler is a motorbike, and subject to motorbike legislation.

Looks good to me.


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## exi (Aug 28, 2016)

The Cyclone is not for someone looking for information, but there are plenty of so called legal or lower power systems. 
A good place to start is.a Bafang BBS-02 500w or 750w with 36 or 48 volts. Please do not worry as they won't spin your tire an ruin the mud or disturb sleeping chipmunks 
Keep in mind ebike and trail restrictions are written by politicians with agendas. Tell me again why we want to listen to them


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ImaBum said:


> Ride on and stay free!
> 
> Legal or illegal. Get out there an enjoy life!!
> 
> I'm more of a roam around the neighborhood kinda guy. Some back woods are nice but I enjoy my e-bike around my neighborhood nightly for about 8 miles a trip. The pedal assist makes going up them hills a breeze where otherwise I'd put way too much pressure on my knee or would have to walk. And that's not fun for me.


I'm all for ebikes for roaming around the neighborhood and I'm sure everyone else on here is as well.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ImaBum said:


> Do e-bikes spin the tire on dirt trails?
> 
> I can't do a burnout on my e-bike. Simply not enough torque


If that's important to you, you just just need to upgrade. There's plenty of systems out there that will give you the torque.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Actually, I can't pedal a mountain bike right now because of a medical issue. And, I have another condition that makes it a bad idea to ride a bike at all. That doesn't give me a right to get on a powered bike and go hit the trails. Americans with Disabilities Act? What does that have to do with anything. You guys act like everyone has a Constitutional right to ride the trails on whatever it takes to get them on the trails, when we are unable to do so because of old age, medical condition or injury. So, where does it stop? If you turn 90 and can't ride a bike anymore, do you expect to be allowed to have someone strap you to a 4x4 and hit the mountain bike trails? It really sucks, but there comes a time when we just can't ride anymore. There comes a time when we just can't do the things we want. Whether or not a powered bike should be allowed on our mountain bike trails shouldn't be decided because some people need help to be able to ride. If you are that unable to pedal a regular bike, you shouldn't be on off-road trails.


 First off, old fat and lazy is not a disability. However. Anyone with an ADA disability can use just about anything for trail access if it is a mobility device. My friend is in a wheelchair ( unable to pedal) and uses a 750 watt, 4 wheel BOMA. 20+24" wheels, small shocks, joy stick control. It is his mobility device and rides it every where. Just needs some wider type trails. And the ADA does have some broad and sweeping powers to allow all users access. Not on all trails however and with some restrictions. Most state parks in MA have "accessible" trails and other kinds of inclusivity. Like docks, tables, ramps and beach access. Do some reading up on this, informative.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

I am 62 and disabled -prosthetic leg. I can still pedal faster than some, slower than most. Not at the ebike stage yet. 
I have no problem sharing a trail with an ebike. An e-rider will probably pass me and keep going until out of sight. Aside from a momentary inconvenience at the point of passing an ebike will not negatively affect my enjoyment of the trail at all. So I do not care.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Dave, great attitude. I use my e-bike mostly for errands, but occasionally for a different off road experience. I've been riding the trails out here in CA 4-7 times a week for 35 or so years and the e-bike is a nice change of pace (where it's permitted).


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