# e-MTB's In Southern CA



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I've spoken to several dealers who sell Trek, Specialized and Giant; one has six stores, one has four, one has two, the others just one. All have added eMTB's to their inventory which they say are selling well. Additionally, there is no indication that eMTB's are influencing activity which might affect MTB access. If anyone is experiencing access issues, it would be interesting to see them delineated.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm not in California but I don't think anyone can judge how electric bikes might affect trail access based on what's going on right now. E (mountain) bikes are basically a brand new thing and I have yet to see even one of them on the trail, still I'm concerned that decisions made today could greatly affect the future of backcountry trails. Riding one or having experience with them is irrelevant.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Look no further than the anecdotal tales told in this very forum about poaching.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Mountain bikes had unfettered access to basically anything in the early 1980s, because there were very few people riding them.

Fast forward 10 years and they were banned from all sorts of places.

It will be interesting indeed to see where e-bikes end up. I could see a future where well-regulated 250W/15mph Euro-bikes are mostly used by the disabled/elderly to share trails and there's no problem. I can also conceive of a future where the industry decides to market the bikes to the young and rowdy (especially as battery tech improves) and turns a blind eye to mods/dongles/software patches and we end up with them banned wholesale, maybe taking normal mountain bikes with them in some locations. 

From what I've seen the folks selling them are try to sell them to young fast folks more so than the elderly, but they're blanket banned where I am so on the rare occasions I've encountered one on the trail they inevitably look pretty shell shocked from people telling them they can't be there. 

I think my current favorite was a lady with a 2" tired Haibike (complete with reflectors and a kickstand) digging holes in the nordic ski trails near my house. I semi-politely informed her that she needed to find somewhere else to ride (narrow tire bikes are banned from those trails in winter with or without motors, she'd ignored probably a dozen obvious signs) but I'm sure she'd already upset 20 or more other trail users she'd encountered without changing course so who knows what she did after I took off.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not in California but I don't think anyone can judge how electric bikes might affect trail access based on what's going on right now. E (mountain) bikes are basically a brand new thing and I have yet to see even one of them on the trail, still I'm concerned that decisions made today could greatly affect the future of backcountry trails. Riding one or having experience with them is irrelevant.


Good point. I was under the impression from so many negative comments that individual areas are being inundated with trail closures caused by ebikes. I've never heard of one area having a problem. Additionally, this isn't right, but some of those that complain about (the concept of) ebikes around here poach regularly whether it's an area that used to be open to them that is closed now or riding at night where it's prohibited.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

From what I've seen in the last 18 months in Topanga State Park nobody gives a **** about ebikes being on MTB trails: it's a non-issue. The only place anyone seems to care is on this forum, maybe others in SoCal have had a different experience, but that's been mine.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> From what I've seen in the last 18 months in Topanga State Park nobody gives a **** about ebikes being on MTB trails: it's a non-issue. The only place anyone seems to care is on this forum, maybe others in SoCal have had a different experience, but that's been mine.


That's what I'm seeing in Orange County (which I should have put in the title, not socal). I encountered a shop owner on one yesterday when my wife and I were on MTB's and he's never encountered any problems. Most of the rancor and vitriol seems to be on facebook which I eschew or MTBR.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

The only 2 times I have personally seen eBikes in the area I ride, both times the riders were part of my group. One is a tech head who put a kit on his older Kona Stinky(throttle driven, no pedal assist) and as far as I can tell that was the only time he ever rode it in said area. I rode it, it was weird, felt like a silent motorcycle. I only rode it for like 5 min, so my experience was brief.

The other guy came with a group from OC to ride with us and his was a $13k pedal assist bike, don't recall the brand, just that my draw dropped when he mentioned the price.... 

The area I ride in is large and only part of it is technically "legal", and that section of trail currently has no specific regulations about e-bikes, just the standard "no motorized vehicles allowed" terminology.

The best trails are the ones that are in the legal grey area and are used by Hikers, dogs off leash, mountain bikers and the occasional horseback rider. Even if someone was riding a 3000 watt Class 3 eBike out there, no one really has any ground to tell them not to.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The few that I've seen have been in sparsely used areas (the kind I try to ride when possible) on "off" days, so innocuous (to most), although a couple of times on weekends in relatively quiet places (which are the only ones where my wife and I MTB because of the crazies showing off in crowded parks).


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Saw a guy in an e-bike where Dirt Mulholland and Temescal meet. The speed where he crested...looked like he flew up the hill. I've seen a few e-bike riders up there now. There are signs that do say no motorized vehicles. Not sure where the e bikes would fall under that.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> The only 2 times I have personally seen eBikes in the area I ride, both times the riders were part of my group. One is a tech head who put a kit on his older Kona Stinky(throttle driven, no pedal assist) and as far as I can tell that was the only time he ever rode it in said area. I rode it, it was weird, felt like a silent motorcycle. I only rode it for like 5 min, so my experience was brief.
> 
> The other guy came with a group from OC to ride with us and his was a $13k pedal assist bike, don't recall the brand, just that my draw dropped when he mentioned the price....
> 
> ...


FWIW if we're talking California here a Class 3 e-bike has the same 750 watt limit as do Classes 1 & 2; the main difference is the max assisted top speed of 28 mph vs. 20 mph for the other 2.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

RS, WH knows that area, some of which is open to e-MTB activity AFAIK; perhaps he'll respond.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

This thread was initiated in response to the thousands of plaintive whimpers about e-MTB carnage and the impending/resulting trail closures. It seemed as though specific concrete examples might provide a cautionary tale for those of us in areas without any apparent problems. Looks like it might be smoke and mirrors, kind of like Chris Angel or David Blaine in Vegas. The cautionary tale is for those who waste their time responding to complaints. For me, the anti's are on ignore.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> For me, the anti's are on ignore.


And that points to a closed mind imho. You come across as more intelligent and open to opposing points of view than that.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

RS VR6 said:


> Saw a guy in an e-bike where Dirt Mulholland and Temescal meet. The speed where he crested...looked like he flew up the hill. I've seen a few e-bike riders up there now. There are signs that do say no motorized vehicles. Not sure where the e bikes would fall under that.


 If you are on Dirt Mulholland or any of the fire roads or trails off of it Class 1s are permitted wherever bicycles are permitted. This is as per the Rangers during a discussion in front of the "No Motorized Vehicles" sign at an entry barrier.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> FWIW if we're talking California here a Class 3 e-bike has the same 750 watt limit as do Classes 1 & 2; the main difference is the max assisted top speed of 28 mph vs. 20 mph for the other 2.


 The big difference for the Rangers and for other bicyclists is the throttle: if you have one, you aren't welcome. On a purely practical basis this will keep the hopped-up eMXers out as they can't resist riding them like motorcycles for very long and they will always be easy to spot. There is no shortage of people on the trails with cellphones to report violators, as well as the occasional ranger.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

TT, why would you expect to be on ignore considering your sense of humor and intellect? It's the drones who keep repeating the same bilge. Plus, I'm primarily an MTBer and don't want anything to happen to access either which precipitated this question. Hate to "out" you guys, but I consider you, SHM, JBW & KJ (probably others) my pals.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> TT, why would you expect to be on ignore considering your sense of humor and intellect? It's the drones who keep repeating the same bilge. Plus, I'm primarily an MTBer and don't want anything to happen to access either which precipitated this question. Hate to "out" you guys, but I consider you, SHM, JBW & KJ (probably others) my pals.


It's not that I expect it, it just surprises me that you would limit yourself to a narrower perspective. That's my take anyway. "Pals"? Yes indeed.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> I've spoken to several dealers who sell Trek, Specialized and Giant; one has six stores, one has four, one has two, the others just one. All have added eMTB's to their inventory which they say are selling well. Additionally, there is no indication that eMTB's are influencing activity which might affect MTB access. If anyone is experiencing access issues, it would be interesting to see them delineated.


 Seems CA is to be a test case for some of the e bike issues/ access issues. Here in MA, I know one trek/spec dealer who pulled off all the mt bike e bikes due to concerns. Still has a few e commuters for sale. And one other who refuse to sell any. If it comes to the point of all bikes being shut out at a certain area, wouldn't it be too late at that point? Time will tell. In Southern CA, are most areas open to e bikes or only here and there?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

leeboh said:


> In Southern CA, are most areas open to e bikes or only here and there?


Right now, class 1 and 2 are allowed anywhere a pedal bike is allowed unless specifically stated otherwise, there are some exceptions to that.

Here in San Diego I am not aware of any local trail systems Land Managers specifically blocking access to Class 1 and 2 ebikes. But like I said, in my experience there are just not very many of them yet, so they are not a prevalent user group down here.

Maybe when the cost to get one drops or the used market starts to have some volume we will see more.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Right now, class 1 and 2 are allowed anywhere a pedal bike is allowed unless specifically stated otherwise, there are some exceptions to that.


 The big exception is federal land: national parks and forest service land don't have to obey CA regulations and in this case, do not. I am not sure what the rules are on paved bike paths in Yosemite, for instance, but eMTBs are not welcome on non-motorized trails on Forest Service land although they can ride on both the street and OHV trails w/o having a Green tax sticker. This is as per the Kern district Ranger head office.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I usually ride (3) days a week and spread my rides around SD county for the most part but get up to OC occasionally. I've seen a total of (4) e-bikes so far and (3) of those were on National Forest trails where they are illegal. All (3) of them were pushing their bikes around/thru uphill switchbacks at the time I saw them. The 4th guy I saw was an older guy on what looked more like a fat bike cruiser with the battery on a rack over the back tire. I don't know much about e-bike standards but that guy was moving along 3X as fast as the other bikes on that trail which is what caught my attention as I saw him approaching across the open space.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Couple of points that are peripheral:
1) I've encountered two bike/hike paths in Orange County that have "No Electric Bicycles" signs, so it MAY be necessary to specifically exclude them where they MIGHT be allowed by law (just an observation, not an argument).
2) I am not comfortable on drop bar road bikes, so my MTB(s) are commuters too. What I'm intimating (again not to argue) is there may be others that aren't comfortable on road-type ebikes.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> The big difference for the Rangers and for other bicyclists is the throttle: if you have one, you aren't welcome. On a purely practical basis this will keep the hopped-up eMXers out as they can't resist riding them like motorcycles for very long and they will always be easy to spot. There is no shortage of people on the trails with cellphones to report violators, as well as the occasional ranger.


True this; problem is that throttles are hard to detect if the rider conscientiously pedals when being observed (what I do when I'm riding my Class 2).

Just yesterday I was unloading tools from my truck at an entrance gate (@ Henry W Coe SP) and a ranger stopped by for a chat. While doing so 3 e-bikers rode past and it was obvious to me that 2 were Class 1 and 1 was Class 2; I asked the ranger if she had noticed this and she had not. Further comment was "this is going to be real hard to enforce". (Class 2 aren't banned on paper as of yet; that's just the consensus of the rangers)


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> From what I've seen in the last 18 months in Topanga State Park nobody gives a **** about ebikes being on MTB trails: it's a non-issue. The only place anyone seems to care is on this forum, maybe others in SoCal have had a different experience, but that's been mine.


This! I live in Utah. I stop and talk to hikers often on all matter of different trails. They are blown away with the idea of ebikes. IMHO the only reason ebikes are banned in Moab is the traditional mtn bkrs beat the ebikers to the punch. I think the ban will fall sooner or later. If the Moab mtn bkrs use tax payer money to build "mtn bike parks" on slick rock designated for mtn bike use [read ie: the area is not attractive for hikers and it is hotter than hell out there in the summer], then they can not reasonably justify keeping ebikes out of there. There are no blind corners out there and the line of site is tremendous. There is no such thing as ebikes are going to cause erosion to the Moab trails. Moab has been expanding their trail network at such a exponential rate that pressure is being taken off the classic trails to ride the newer bike networks. Ie: less traffic per trail. I don't know how my bike and battery will hold up to extreme temperatures, but riding an ebike in Moab during "less than optimal" times of the day [read hot] is a doable option. I say this because the ebike lightens the load and the increase in speed while you are sweating will provide additional cooling. I've had to change up my winter gear for winter riding because of the increase in speed. Looking forward to this summer.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> If the Moab mtn bkrs use tax payer money to build "mtn bike parks" on slick rock designated for mtn bike use [read ie: the area is not attractive for hikers and it is hotter than hell out there in the summer], then they can not reasonably justify keeping ebikes out of there.


You might not know how trails get built on public land, but here are the normal senarios:

Possibly in cooperation with a volunteer trails org for the design, the land manager hires a contractor to build it using tax money, or money the trail org raised.

Or, the land owner lets a volunteer trail org build it.

Or, the land owner does it all themselves using staff and volunteers.

In every case, it's the land owner (in Moab's case primairly the BLM) who decide who can use what where. Be it hiking only, mtb or motorized. Mountain bikers have nothing to do with that part of it.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Where I live there is trail laws but no one to enforce them so it really doesn't matter. What gets trails shut down is user conflict and whether you are on a bicycle or a e-bike you will always take a second place seat to a hiker or equestrian.
What will get enforced is the rules of the road. In my province (B.C.) you have pretty much free reign on a e-bike up to 500w and pedals. It doesn't have to be assist only but does have to slow down and stop when you let go of the throttle. Over 500w with or without assist and you need registration, insurance, licence plate, and drivers licence. Now if you don't ride on the road and trailer your over 500w to the trail, you would fall under the off road motorcycle rules. Then you have to display a registration number, have liability insurance and a valid drivers licence.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> You might not know how trails get built on public land, but here are the normal senarios:
> 
> Possibly in cooperation with a volunteer trails org for the design, the land manager hires a contractor to build it using tax money, or money the trail org raised.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the whole tax-payer money thing doesn't fly.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If the landowner does it themselves using staff and volunteers and the primary land owner in Moab is the BLM doesn't that make it taxpayer money for the staff and any equipment and support for the volunteers?
There must be trails built this way, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned in the list and those trails would seem to have taxpayer money involved.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Guys, this thread is about e-bikes in California, not MOAB. It is also not a discussion about how Tax payer money is or is not involved in trail building - that discussion does not even belong in this forum... not to mention this thread.

I hate to be this way, but the threads in the eBike section continue to veer off track and that needs to stop.


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

I've ridden throughout SoCal and have only seen a few 'rangers'. For the most part trails are not monitored and people willfully neglect trail rules. 90% of the people here don't keep their dogs on leashes yet you guys have dog parks to take them too. 

I don't see e-mtbs causing extensive trail damage that could result in access being restricted to bikes. I do see people altering trails which seems to anger some land managers. That has a better chance of getting access restricted. E-mtbs can allow you to ride at a faster speed that could cause more unsafe conditions and issues with other trail users and that could wind up also restricting access. That's moreso an issue of the rider and their lack of etiquette rather than an e-biker. If you are normally an asshat then the e-mtb can allow you to be moreso of one. 


The only way I see e-mtbs being specifically banned from trails is if they start bursting into flames and causing fires. Otherwise I just don't seem they causing the loss of trail access to bikers in general since no one bothers to monitor or enforce and trail rules out here.


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