# Pinion gearbox problems anyone?



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

I recently received my Priority 600x pinion gearbox bike. So far I am impressed but have experienced 4 ghost shifts in the 100 plus miles I've ridden. I'm wondering if this is normal? do the cables stretch as they do with a new derailleur setup? Also I notice a faint rattle sound which seems to come from the gearbox when ridden over rough pavement. Has anyone else noticed this?


----------



## JK-47 (Apr 22, 2021)

slomoshredder said:


> I recently received my Priority 600x pinion gearbox bike. So far I am impressed but have experienced 4 ghost shifts in the 100 plus miles I've ridden. I'm wondering if this is normal? do the cables stretch as they do with a new derailleur setup? Also I notice a faint rattle sound which seems to come from the gearbox when ridden over rough pavement. Has anyone else noticed this?


Did you ask them?


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

Yes, but I want the experiences of the people who actually use a pinion gearbox, not just those who sell them. Priority Bikes is very responsive but clearly have a vested interest.


----------



## JK-47 (Apr 22, 2021)

slomoshredder said:


> Yes, but I want the experiences of the people who actually use a pinion gearbox, not just those who sell them. Priority Bikes is very responsive but clearly have a vested interest.


What did they say?


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

They asked about whether I was shifting while pedaling. Which I had tried a few times under low power successfully. But the ghost shifts occurred independent of this. They also requested video with sound of my noise issue which due to my own tech limits haven't provided.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I just got a Pinion C12, no ghost shifting, but it occasionally clunks into gear, also makes a lighter clunk if I go from coasting to a hard pedal.

The cables are push-pull, try loosening the tension slightly and play with the feel.


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

I'll try that, how about vibration noise from inside the gearbox? mine makes a very faint rattling sound over rough road. Nothing alarming but I could still return the bike and don't want to hang on to a potential problem. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No rattling on mine, that might be your housing or cables, or a loose cog?

Are you running a belt?


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

Yes, I have the belt. I've tried applying pressure to the cables, brakes, cogs etc and then bouncing the rear end with no luck eliminating the sound . Again its pretty faint but I cant help wondering if it's a sign of a problem? Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I really wouldn't worry if it's still shifting well, the Pinion drivetrain is pretty reliable and burly, maybe give it a couple more months and see how break in affects it.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

MIne occasionally clunks into a gear a little harder than I expected. Pinion says this will happen occasionally and is nothing to worry about.  I've had my Pinion for about two years, have around 4000 miles (6400 km), and it happens so infrequently that I really notice it when it does. My only real gripe was some creaking from the cranks which I fixed by removing them, cleaning the crank and the spindles really well, and greasing lightly. It was a very small creak and only when mashing hard but I has some time and enthusiasm. 

But essentially bomb-proof so far and performs, with the Gates belt drive, exactly as advertised. 

In reality it's the most boring piece of cycling equipment I have ever owned. Literally needs no maintenance except an oil change every lunar eclipse which was super easy to do. Just kind of works and works and works. It also seems to wear in very well and gets a lot smoother.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

slomoshredder said:


> I recently received my Priority 600x pinion gearbox bike. So far I am impressed but have experienced 4 ghost shifts in the 100 plus miles I've ridden. I'm wondering if this is normal? do the cables stretch as they do with a new derailleur setup? Also I notice a faint rattle sound which seems to come from the gearbox when ridden over rough pavement. Has anyone else noticed this?


I bet the rattling are your shifter cables, especially if they are internally routed.


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

Shifter cables are internally routed, seems like a good explanation. Except that no one else has complained of this? Thanks


----------



## piyleirbag (6 mo ago)

Hi there, I've had a Pinion hardtail (Nordest Lacrau 2 with a C12) for just over a year, which has seen regular use (2-3 trail rides a week all year round), so I thought I'd chime in with my experiences. When I was having these difficulties, I was not able to find any information anywhere online, so I figured I'd put these out here in the hope this helps someone else. Having said that, I would like to add that none of the problems I encountered were with the gearbox itself, neither are they an indictment on the brands and products involved.

It is also possible that there was some setup/user error involved, as in my country there is practically zero support for the Pinion system and hence I was nearly entirely on my own in assembling and troubleshooting the bike.

The first issue I faced was excessive belt wear. My inital drivetrain set-up featured the Gates CDX 32t front sprocket and 30t rear, mounted on a Hope Pro 4 11 speed HG hub with the appropriate spacers for the chainline. In under a year's worth of riding I snapped two belts, each at under 400km mileage, and the third belt was already showing delamination of the fibres along the edges when I finally decided to switch to a chain drive.

During hard, maximal effort climbs, very often the belt would make loud snapping and popping noises, which I later discovered was the belt popping off and snapping back onto the central groove of the sprockets.

Each time, I would shift the rear sprocket laterally in an effort to find the optimal chain line, but was never able to completely eliminate the problem. An LBS with Gates experience later hypothesized that it was due to frame flex at the gearbox mount area under load causing havoc with the chainline. By then I had decided to switch to a chain drive, and since then there hasn't been any further drivetrain issues.

The second issue I encountered was with an Onyx Classic singlespeed hub, which was mounted on a new rear wheel and run for about 4 months with the belt drive. Recently the rear wheel developed an odd regular knocking sound under pedalling, and upon inspection I found that both bearings in the freehub had completely disintegrated.















The pic on the left shows the bearing outer races lodged in the freehub body, and on the right the remains of the inner races, seals and balls.

Prior to this the Hope Pro 4 had given zero issues for the 8 months it was in use, in identical conditions.
To their credit, Dan at Onyx was very responsive and while he was not able to offer any suggestions as he had never seen anything like this, he was keen on getting to the root of the issue.

As my bike has sliding dropouts, I was careful in ensuring that the hub axle was correctly mounted perpendicular in the frame. My hunch is that somehow, the high belt tension acting on the freehub was part of the reason. I am now observing if this reoccurs with my chain drive setup.

As for the questions above - Clunking into gear does happen, usually if the shift was not done cleanly, the box jumps into an adjacent gear. The Pinion manual will say that this is normal, and may happen occasionally during a ride. Having said that, the Gates belt jumping on and off the central guide groove on the sprockets as what I described earlier makes a similar sound and feel, so do ensure that that's not the case.

I do also seem to recall that my gearbox made a faint rattling noise in certain gears (I think it was gear 7), but it was barely noticeable and has vanished after continued use. The manual says to expect a break in period of up to 1000km. Although I have no way to quantify this, I have noted significantly less pedalling resistance right now than when it was new. For me at least, especially after the first oil change, there was a very noticeable drop in resistance.

I am still enjoying my bike and intend to keep it for the forseeable future as I love the simplicity and durability of the gearbox itself - and having it on a hardtail essentially means I can ride hard and put it away wet (most of the time). However in my opinion, it's important to ensure the reliability of the system as a whole - in my case the frame, drivetrain and hubs - as weaknesses in one area could possibly compromise the others.


----------



## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

That freehub looks like it's off an Onyx Vesper hub not an Onyx Classic hub. Vespers are really light duty XC hubs according Onyx's own web page on which to choose. I think there's an MTBR gripe thread about Vesper failures you may want to look for that maybe that failure mode has some history. I have both SS and HG classics and neither looks like that.


----------



## piyleirbag (6 mo ago)

socal_jack said:


> That freehub looks like it's off an Onyx Vesper hub not an Onyx Classic hub. Vespers are really light duty XC hubs according Onyx's own web page on which to choose. I think there's an MTBR gripe thread about Vesper failures you may want to look for that maybe that failure mode has some history. I have both SS and HG classics and neither looks like that.












its an Onyx Classic ISO HGSS Boost hub sir..they don’t make the Vespers in single speed. I’ve read about the Vesper freehub slipping issue, but that was something to do with the clutch mechanism not being able to handle the torque I believe.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I also feel like break in has led to improved function, the clunking into gear has gonr from once or twice a ride to rarely.

I’m surprised to hear about belt issues and onyx hub failure; I’ve had many Onyx hubs, perhaps the belts are overly tensioned? There’s a Gates belt tension app that works well 👍

I’m considering a chain drive to reduce drag and to allow for a shorter chainstay position. I do love the belt for low maintenance and silence.

I really enjoy ring my Nicolai Argon Pinion, I think gear boxes will become more popular 🥰


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

slomoshredder said:


> Except that no one else has complained of this? Thanks


People complain of rattling cables with internal routing all the time. They don't always know the source of it, though, and not all internally routed frames have the problem. Some manufacturers have actually taken steps to address the rattle.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Harold said:


> People complain of rattling cables with internal routing all the time. They don't always know the source of it, though, and not all internally routed frames have the problem. Some manufacturers have actually taken steps to address the rattle.


There are ways to address it too... even without tube in tube routing.


----------



## slomoshredder (7 mo ago)

I'll echo that, with more miles my shifter is smoother, no more ghost shifts since I was admonished not to shift while pedaling (even though you can) my rattle turned out to be loose material in the downtube, lbs removed it. Ive had some minor squeaking from the belt even on the road , so minimal dust. Goes away with a spray of water though. Could this be the heat? Low humidity? Also I cant seem to get consistent readings from the Gates tension app, is this background traffic noise? , my ineptitude? Has any used the kricket?


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The gates tension app is finicky, I usually have to open and close it to get repeat readings.

My sense is that a lower tension is a safer bet.

I’ve never slipped a belt.


----------



## piyleirbag (6 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> I also feel like break in has led to improved function, the clunking into gear has gonr from once or twice a ride to rarely.
> 
> I’m surprised to hear about belt issues and onyx hub failure; I’ve had many Onyx hubs, perhaps the belts are overly tensioned? There’s a Gates belt tension app that works well 👍
> 
> ...


Ive tried both reducing the belt tension and adjusting the chain line..with reduced tension the belt skipped even more and jumped off the front sprocket several times.

I've come to conclude that for my case its frame flex.. But I'm the only data point, there are a number of others riding the same bike as i am with a similar setup without any issues.

I've run a chain drive for a couple of months now, and it's just as quiet and low maintenance. I hot wax all my chains when new, and occasionally apply chain wax as required. I had a 10-speed XT drivetrain before which lasted the better of 3 years riding all year round in wet and sandy conditions before i retired it. It was still running and shifting smooth. The single speed chains with their straight chain line will see far less wear.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

piyleirbag said:


> Ive tried both reducing the belt tension and adjusting the chain line..with reduced tension the belt skipped even more and jumped off the front sprocket several times.
> 
> I've come to conclude that for my case its frame flex.. But I'm the only data point, there are a number of others riding the same bike as i am with a similar setup without any issues.
> 
> I've run a chain drive for a couple of months now, and it's just as quiet and low maintenance. I hot wax all my chains when new, and occasionally apply chain wax as required. I had a 10-speed XT drivetrain before which lasted the better of 3 years riding all year round in wet and sandy conditions before i retired it. It was still running and shifting smooth. The single speed chains with their straight chain line will see far less wear.


Yeah, it could be your frame, what Pinion bike do you ride?

I've got a Nicolai Argonb, 7000 series aluminum, CNC gussets, super strong, no flex whatsoever.

Do you think the chain has less drag than a belt?


----------



## piyleirbag (6 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, it could be your frame, what Pinion bike do you ride?
> 
> I've got a Nicolai Argonb, 7000 series aluminum, CNC gussets, super strong, no flex whatsoever.
> 
> Do you think the chain has less drag than a belt?


I have a Nordest Lacrau 2 Ti. When i had it over at an LBS the mech and I observed the gearbox mount area visibly flexing in the inboard direction under high load (we held the brakes and applied as much force as we could to the cranks to simulate high torque). We had no equipment or means of measuring that though, all we had was the Mark I Eyeball.

With the chain I think there is a very slight reduction in drag, because it can be run with quite a bit less tension than the belt.

The other noticeable thing is that the power delivery to the rear wheel is slightly more direct, as the Gates belt has more elasticity compared to the chain. Psychologically I can now apply maximum effort inputs to the cranks without hesitation, when before I would have had to constantly second guess if the belt was going to skip under me and very often I would end up not clearing those particular trail features.

Also if you do have the opportunity, i would recommend swapping the crankarms for shorter ones. There are a few studies online about shorter vs. longer crank arms. I went with the shortest available 155mm, down from the standard 170(?). For reference I am just over 6ft with an inseam of about 34 inches. The effect was immediately noticeable, there was significantly less muscle fatigue in my legs. I have found myself able to spin 1-2 gears taller than before over the same features for the same cadence and perceived muscular effort. This change resulted in by far the biggest improvement for me personally.


----------



## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

piyleirbag said:


> The other noticeable thing is that the power delivery to the rear wheel is slightly more direct, as the Gates belt has more elasticity compared to the chain.


Not true

One of the reasons belts last longer is BECAUSE they have less mechanical elasicity than chains.
That's also why belts are more efficient the more power you apply.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’m running a 160mm CNC crank, considered going to a 155mm crank like I run on my FS bikes, the shortest crank is 150mm; that’s my favorite length fit muni 🤩


----------



## Norts60 (Mar 6, 2020)

I have just done 6500km ride from Sth to Nth in Australia. I have had to replace the gear changing cables twice. Both times the cables have broken into a complete mess on the twist shift. First time was near a town so was able to get a LBS to do it the second was time was in the middle of no where or near enough to that. 
Has anyone else encountered similar problems.

Roger


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> I’m running a 160mm CNC crank, considered going to a 155mm crank like I run on my FS bikes, the shortest crank is 150mm; that’s my favorite length fit muni 🤩



Are you noticing any improvement in drag within the box as it breaks in? How many miles on it now?


----------

