# Your Dream wheels



## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Hey everyone, I'm off sick today and have a lot of time on my hands, which is really bad for UGI! I was thinking that my XT-Mavic 819 wheelset weighs in at around 2 kilos (4.5 pounds) without tires, and while its a bomb proof combination I think I can do better weight and bling wise.

So here is the Idea, put the FSA 300 wheelset I have on my Spot on the Flux (they weigh around 1.7 kilos) which is doing lighter XC duties now and build a resistant and light wheelset for the Spot which I am using for more agressive stuff (I should define aggresive though because for me that means doing 2-3 foot drops max). This is probably going to wait until the end of the year but I am already salivating...

So, what would you guys build/buy? Also, is there a durability advantage to having 32 spokes instead of 26 (for example?) Lets assume that $$ is not an object for this excersize (although it always is).

Thanks

Mada

P.D. I am posting this on the Turner forum also


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm sick today too.

I'd recommend something rebuildable, no proprietary spokes etc.

Here's my thoughts.

Hubs: Hope Pro II, Hadley or King.

Rims: DT 5.1d (should be able to set them up tubeless if you want), or keep the Mavics.

Spokes: DT Supercomps.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> I'm sick today too.
> 
> I'd recommend something rebuildable, no proprietary spokes etc.
> 
> ...


jajaja, almost my build... I don't know abouit the spokes, maybe some Sapims? wait... no propietary spokes... DT something spokes.....

In the wheel section there was a post about the number of spokes, and from what I understood, if you used 36 spokes, you strengthen the wheelset, allowing you to use a lighter rim.

Ok, If it was for me, and Mada gave me all the money I wanted, I would choose:

Hubs: Gold Kings (bling bling bling)
Spokes: DT something silver
Nipples: DT something gold
Rims: DT 5.1d (I would choose silver, but they only make them black).


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I would choose some Steel rims, plastic nipples, a mono spoke and Turbo hubs.

=P


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## Captain Jack Sparrow (Jan 26, 2006)

My next wheelset is:

Hubs: Hope bulb 32H with Hope skewers
Spokes: DT competition or supercomp
Nipples: DT swiss
Rims: DT 5.1d


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> I would choose some Steel rims, plastic nipples, a mono spoke and Turbo hubs.
> 
> =P


So, you're already riding your dream wheels!!! 

Mada... for your weight you're fine with 32 spokes. But if you care of durability, maybe a rear 36 is on the order.

I already replied your question on the Turner board, so you know what I'd like.

Sapim has a flat bladed spoke and some standard ones.

In your shoes and just for keeping away from UGI, I'd swap wheels between your two bikes.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

ROCKY_RENE said:


> My next wheelset is:
> 
> Hubs: Hope bulb 32H with Hope skewers
> Spokes: DT competition or supercomp
> ...


Just as an opinion, aren't you better with the DT 4.1d? You're a lightweight, and you could save some pounds.... If you weighted as I, or jumped, the 5.1 would be wonderfull...


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> In your shoes and just for keeping away from UGI, I'd swap wheels between your two bikes.


You of all people should know that its useless to fight with the UGI... I have been doing some research today and it looks like the lightest 32 spoke wheels money can buy are the American Classics 350s. The hit the scales at a very respectable 1,500 grams.

The other option I was contemplating was building some American Classic hubs with an Olimpic ZTR. I am a bit skeptical about how much punishment these wheels can handle though...


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> You of all people should know that its useless to fight with the UGI... I have been doing some research today and it looks like the lightest 32 spoke wheels money can buy are the American Classics 350s. The hit the scales at a very respectable 1,500 grams.
> 
> The other option I was contemplating was building some American Classic hubs with an Olimpic ZTR. I am a bit skeptical about how much punishment these wheels can handle though...


Do you want some real-world advice?? Here's the place (or Turner board)

Do you want advice that satisfies your weight-weenie-wuss desires?? Go to the "Save some weight" forum. 

I'd be tempted by the ZTR's... the 350 weight figure is not far from real world hoops like Mavic 221 or 717's... the AC's looks cool. Your favorite magazine MBA, reviewed them a while ago saying nice stuff about them. Some stuff like all the test riders felt like they were a big improvement. Max weight for those is around 220 pounds or so.

They also ranked very high the XC-300's in the same article. Something like they feel like a more expensive set of wheels.

I'd go the Custom built wheel route with a decent engagement hub like DT-240's, Hadley or Kings. It'll return more from your money.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

I think you are right, I got blinded by my ex-roadie weight weenie side... I am ashamed of myself... (That doesn't mean I won't give in to my UGI later on this year  )

Here's a question for you all: Can you just switch wheels between bikes whithout changing rotors? Are all rotors the same width? 

Cheers,

Mada


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

Honestly, are you expecting those AC hubs and Stan's rims to stand the punishing of 3 ft drops???
Wake up, those are WW items, by what I hear you are not just racing XC, I really don't believe that kind of fixture would survive your riding style. 
I only do XC, nothing more than 1 ft drops (only if I'm not aware) and my wheelset is solid and at the same time light (I suffer gram counting illness) 1449 gr tubeless kit included and no way it could do 3 ft drops without substantial damage.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Here's a question for you all: Can you just switch wheels between bikes whithout changing rotors? Are all rotors the same width?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mada


While your rotors are the same diameter, you can. Just watch for the pads to bite the rotor correctly on the brake surface. 
A LITTLE bit INSIDE the rotor (no ore than 3mm)= OK, good to go.
Any amount outside the rotor = NO EFFING WAY!!!

For the thickness... how much do your think your pads wear off?? Accounting for both sides, maybe up to 4mm (2 on each side). So, do you really think even a full 1mm would affect?? NO. Remember the pistons slide into the bore seals of the caliper and self-adjust for pad wear (in case of almost any non-stone-age brake, not like older Maguras and now Hayes SO1E)... they can adapt to thinner rotors.

The problem that you may found out is that different hubs have different maeasurements and so happens with the brake tabs. The IS has tolerances and on the bicycle world, those are not that tight.

So, while you can swap wheels, you may find yourself having to re-align your calipers. If the difference is small enough for the pads to take the difference (that's if you can put the rotor inside the caliper slot and still be reasonably centered), you're good to go.

If not, you can try to realign your calipers or put shims (syntace makes some) under the rotors to put both wheelset's rotors inside the same spec.

It aint' hard... it's just a pain you'll have to go through once. From there, don't forget to reset pistons like we did at Ajusco.

Or... dump your brakes, get some Avid mechanicals and just dial pads each time you swap wheels.

Obviously, if you want to make a permanent swap, you'll have to realign once and fuggedabout it.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

So I swapped wheels and interestingly enough the XT 819 fit perfectly on the Spot, buuuut the FSA 300 has a bit of rub on the pads. I definately think I will keep the swithch since its more probable that I will taco the FSA on the Spot.

Now, how do I go about aligning the calipers? What kind of shims do you use? Is it worthwile to swap the rotors? 

Thanks Warp, you are worth a thousand, never change


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> So I swapped wheels and interestingly enough the XT 819 fit perfectly on the Spot, buuuut the FSA 300 has a bit of rub on the pads. I definately think I will keep the swithch since its more probable that I will taco the FSA on the Spot.
> 
> Now, how do I go about aligning the calipers? What kind of shims do you use? Is it worthwile to swap the rotors?
> 
> Thanks Warp, you are worth a thousand, never change


Short Summary...
You're keeping the 819's on the Spot, that has the Marta's and...
The Flux has the Juicy 7's and you're putting there the XC-300's right??

Ok. If so:
- Put the wheel in, loosen the caliper fixing bolts of the caliper (the ones that hold the caliper itself to the rear wheel adapter) just a little bit enough for the caliper to move.
- Now squeeze the lever gently so the caliper bites the rotor. When you get to the end of the lever travel, just tighten snug and gently the caliper fixing bolts. On this step watch out!!! If you move the caliper WHILE tightening the fixing bolts, loosen them and start over. The spherical washers on the Avids are a breeze to work on, but if the caliper is not all straight, then you'll have squealing noises.
- You can now release the brake lever and take the caliper fixing bolts to specified torque. Equally, watch out for the caliper not to move.
- Reset the pistons and go for a ride!!

It's good to swap rotors. The brake pads already had put some of themselves on the rotor surface and that compund on the rotor may not play together well with the different pad on the new caliper. Not to mention rotors are supposed to be from different materials from brand to brand and juicys are prone to stuttering with wavy rotors... maybe you have been lucky and yours work well. Keep them that way and keep the juicy rotors with juicy calipers.

If you want to have the blingy Magura rotors on the Juicys, sand gently the rotor braking surface on the rotors with a fine grit (600 is what I like) and lots of water and re-bed in your brakes.

Aren't your Maguras 180mm?? If so, how did you swapped wheels?? If so, you're forced to swap rotors. If not, just take a look at the caliper slot (the one at the rear or front side, not the one at the caliper's upper side where you check for pad wear) and look that the pads are biting as I described in my previous post.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks Warp, I thought it was something more complicated!  

I think I will change the Rotors to be on the safe side.

Cheers,

Mada


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Thanks Warp, I thought it was something more complicated!
> 
> I think I will change the Rotors to be on the safe side.
> 
> ...


It gets ugly with aligning the Maguras... you gotta basically get them off, put shims between the caliper and the frame/fork tabs and put the caliper again fully torqued to specs. If the caliper is not DEAD CENTER over the rotor, you are back to square one. It ain't difficult, but gets old after the second time you remove the caliper's bolts.

So far the best system out there seems to be Shimano/Hayes. Basically, you just can't go wrong with those. It's like the Avid without the spherical shims!!

We (and I mean we) can put an order sometime for some Magura stuff like shims, oil and maybe a pro-build kit, along with some items anybody would like to order. I also need some shims and I ran out of oil for my brakes. I'd love a Pro-Bleed kit too. It would make bleeding easier.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Fortunately it looks like the Maguras won't need any aligning, unless something changes when I put on the Magura Rotors on the 819. Its the Juicys that gave me trouble last night. 

Thanks


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Fortunately it looks like the Maguras won't need any aligning, unless something changes when I put on the Magura Rotors on the 819. Its the Juicys that gave me trouble last night.
> 
> Thanks


Well, if your juicy's are giving you trouble, I'll exchange them for a pair of HFX-9


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Fortunately it looks like the Maguras won't need any aligning, unless something changes when I put on the Magura Rotors on the 819. Its the Juicys that gave me trouble last night.
> 
> Thanks


Cool. I don't think the rotors would make any difference, but if so, I'm positive resetting the the pads can handle it.

Just push them all the way back into the caliper and then press the lever a couple times until you get a nice lever feel again.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

So I switched rotors tonight and it looks like I need a pair of shims for the Juicys to work with the XC 300...kind of frustrating. The maguras look fine, exept there is a bit of pad rub at one point in the revolution. Sugestions Warp?


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> So I switched rotors tonight and it looks like I need a pair of shims for the Juicys to work with the XC 300...kind of frustrating. The maguras look fine, exept there is a bit of pad rub at one point in the revolution. Sugestions Warp?


You sould not need shims for the Juicys. Just loosen the bolts that connect the CALIPER to the ADAPTER. DO NOT TOUCH THE BOLTS THAT CONNECT THE ADAPTER TO THE FRAME !!!! You don't need to.

Then realign the caliper as I mentioned.

As for the Martas rotors... seems like you have a slightly warped (no pun intended) rotor. Simply, note which is the spot that you need trueing.
Move the wheel until the rotor is out of the caliper and push/pull the the rubbing spot of the rotor with your hands in an opposite direction to where the rotor is rubbing. Go easy on the rotor... a little push goes a long way and you'll also move the opposite side (180 degrees) of the rotor.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> You sould not need shims for the Juicys. Just loosen the bolts that connect the CALIPER to the ADAPTER. DO NOT TOUCH THE BOLTS THAT CONNECT THE ADAPTER TO THE FRAME !!!! You don't need to.


Yep, they should be like the bb7s. One of the cool things about the Avids is the CPS bolts. If you don't have a manual, go to their site for a setup guide.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> You sould not need shims for the Juicys. Just loosen the bolts that connect the CALIPER to the ADAPTER. DO NOT TOUCH THE BOLTS THAT CONNECT THE ADAPTER TO THE FRAME !!!! You don't need to.


You are right, I was using the bolts that connect the adapter to the frame... duh! 

I will try again later today an report on progress.

Thanks

Mada


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm thinking also on getting new wheels, my choice is XC oriented:

rims: Mavic 717 v-brake
hubs: shimano XTR
spokes/niples: DT swiss supercomp

Someone told me that in San Pablo you can find both XTR hubs for about $1200 pesos, the Mavic rims seem to go for about $700 pesos; can anybody suggest where to get the spokes/niples, which length shoul I buy? I don't mind buying online (where?) but if someone can point to a store in Mexico it would be nice, also on the rims, does the price sounds good? any advice would be wellcome!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

arivas said:


> I'm thinking also on getting new wheels, my choice is XC oriented:
> 
> rims: Mavic 717 v-brake
> hubs: shimano XTR
> ...


Abel and Aquiles from Soho Bikes ar ethe men for the job. They carry DT Swiss.

If you buy from him the rims and spokes, the build is free.

Only catch is that they carry only Sun Rims and DT Swiss. The DT 4.1 should fit the bill for the intended use, but they're slightly heavier than 717's. They run for about 800, pretty much the same as 717's (they're a little above the 700 mark).

May I suggest DT Supercomps to compensate for the extra grams on the rims??


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

arivas said:


> I'm thinking also on getting new wheels, my choice is XC oriented:
> 
> rims: Mavic 717 v-brake
> hubs: shimano XTR
> ...


OK, Warp beat me to it.

I'd recommend talking to Abel about doing a complete build. Are you wanting disk-ready wheels or not?

If not, then I'd go with DT Revolutions over SuperComp (which were designed for Disk wheels). Revos are lighter. Also, you could look at radial lacing on the front, etc.

I'd definitely recommend the DT 4.1 v-brake rim (exactly the same as the disk rim - just has a machined braking surface). They weigh maybe slightly more than the 717, although I've heard the recent 717s are only about 5 grams lighter. In my opinion the DT is a higher quality product, should be stronger too.


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

Thanks for the advice, the weight weeny in me and the UGI pandemia had almost set me on the supercomp; I was trying to compensate the few grams gained with the last Thomson upgrade...! Maybe I'll have to go for that EC-70 handlebar! AAAHHHG...! where is Soho Bikes located?


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

arivas said:


> Thanks for the advice, the weight weeny in me and the UGI pandemia had almost set me on the supercomp; I was trying to compensate the few grams gained with the last Thomson upgrade...! Maybe I'll have to go for that EC-70 handlebar! AAAHHHG...! where is Soho Bikes located?


They're near Satellite. 5360-3578


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

Hi, thanks for your reply; I thought that the weight diference was greater so thats why I didn't choose the Dt's as first option, 10-20 grams should be no problem. Your opinion on the 717 vs. the 4.1 seem to agree with what I've read on the forums, I'll try talking with the Soho Bike guys before commiting with components and the build!
Didn't knew about the intended use of the Revolutions/Supercomp, I'm on v-brakes and intend to keep the hardtail that way. 
Btw. Is April 2 still on?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yeah it is still on!


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## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

*Dumb Question*



tigerdog said:


> ...If not, then I'd go with DT Revolutions over SuperComp (which were designed for Disk wheels). Revos are lighter. Also, you could look at radial lacing on the front, etc.


Could one use radial lacing on a front wheel with disc brakes? What would be the effect?

I am asking this coz I read somewhere, sometime ago, that radial lacing wasn't recommended for the rear wheel. This due to the efficiency of transmitting the forces from the hub to the rim (well, that´s what I remember). If this is case, doesn't this same principle apply to a front wheel with disk brakes (Where the stopping forces come from the hub and not from the rim)?  

Well this is the question, please help me to clarify this one.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

ritopc said:


> Could one use radial lacing on a front wheel with disc brakes? What would be the effect?
> 
> I am asking this coz I read somewhere, sometime ago, that radial lacing wasn't recommended for the rear wheel. This due to the efficiency of transmitting the forces from the hub to the rim (well, that´s what I remember). If this is case, doesn't this same principle apply to a front wheel with disk brakes (Where the stopping forces come from the hub and not from the rim)?
> 
> Well this is the question, please help me to clarify this one.


Well, you could run radial lacing with disc brakes, specially if you're running 8" rotors and do a lot of downhill.... just remember to include me as a beneficiary in your life insurance policy..

Everywhere I read you need to do a 3 or 4 pattern for disc wheels to make it more resistant to the braking. I don't know the technical reasons, but I wouldn't play with radial lacing for a disc-wheelset.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

3-cross front and rear for discs.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> Could one use radial lacing on a front wheel with disc brakes? What would be the effect?
> 
> I am asking this coz I read somewhere, sometime ago, that radial lacing wasn't recommended for the rear wheel. This due to the efficiency of transmitting the forces from the hub to the rim (well, that´s what I remember). If this is case, doesn't this same principle apply to a front wheel with disk brakes (Where the stopping forces come from the hub and not from the rim)?
> 
> Well this is the question, please help me to clarify this one.


Radial + Discs is a big NO-NO... unless the hub manufacturers especifically mentions it could be done.

Thing is, discs put too much stress on the hub flanges and you can rip them off.

Maybe I'm wrong but it's my understanding that you can run radial lacing on the non-drive side of the rear one, but the drive side has to be laced at least 2X... or you can rip the hub shell off.

Most, if not all, brake manufacturers recommend 3X lacing on a disc wheel.

Again, depends on the hub.


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## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> Well, you could run radial lacing with disc brakes, specially if you're running 8" rotors and do a lot of downhill.... just remember to include me as a beneficiary in your life insurance policy..
> 
> Everywhere I read you need to do a 3 or 4 pattern for disc wheels to make it more resistant to the braking. I don't know the technical reasons, but I wouldn't play with radial lacing for a disc-wheelset.


That´s what I thought. So radial lacing only applies to front wheel, with rim brakes on XC bikes, right?.

Thanks for solving my doubt.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Radial + Discs is a big NO-NO... unless the hub manufacturers especifically mentions it could be done.
> 
> Thing is, discs put too much stress on the hub flanges and you can rip them off.
> 
> ...


I agree on Warp, see, he gives a much better explanation than I can...

I think that Mavic runs 2X on his wheelsets (my Crossland's are 2X and they are strong). If I would build new wheels, I would go 3X.... and probably 36 spokes rather than 32.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> I think that Mavic runs 2X on his wheelsets (my Crossland's are 2X and they are strong). If I would build new wheels, I would go 3X.... and probably 36 spokes rather than 32.


32 spokes is fine for an XC bike.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> 32 spokes is fine for an XC bike.


yup... if concerned about durability, get straight 14g spokes, instead of butted and 3X lacing.

That said, my rear wheel is overbuilt (it has 36 spokes - it was like that when I bought it)


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Guess what I just got... (my credit card company is VERY happy right now)... Oh! and they are GOLD!!!


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Guess what I just got... (my credit card company is VERY happy right now)... Oh! and they are GOLD!!!


Sexy!! What's the full build?


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

I am keeping the 819s, just changing the spokes for supercomps


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> I am keeping the 819s, just changing the spokes for supercomps


No chance of gold nipples then? On the wheels, anyway.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Guess what I just got... (my credit card company is VERY happy right now)... Oh! and they are GOLD!!!


Do these come with the Cereal boxes too??? 

First Turners, then Hope hubs. Now that's Triphop, Rocky_Rene and you riding Hopes... man, I'm riding with poseurs 

Man, that's gonna be a sweet build!

If only Hadleys would come in cereal boxes ... I guess I'm out of luck!


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> First Turners, then Hope hubs. Now that's Triphop, Rocky_Rene and you riding Hopes... man, I'm riding with poseurs


Yeah, they're pretty nice "budget" hubs.


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## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

rzozaya1969 said:


> Well, you could run radial lacing with disc brakes, specially if you're running 8" rotors and do a lot of downhill.... just remember to include me as a beneficiary in your life insurance policy..
> 
> Everywhere I read you need to do a 3 or 4 pattern for disc wheels to make it more resistant to the braking. I don't know the technical reasons, but I wouldn't play with radial lacing for a disc-wheelset.


Hey, whats the advantage of radial lacing? You use the same amount of spokez right?


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

545cu4ch said:


> Hey, whats the advantage of radial lacing? You use the same amount of spokez right?


Each spoke is going to be shorter, saving a little weight.

My old non-disc wheels had a 28-spoke radial front.


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## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

tigerdog said:


> Each spoke is going to be shorter, saving a little weight.
> 
> My old non-disc wheels had a 28-spoke radial front.


Damn, I just noticed that about half of the things I know ive learned them from here. And I still dont know much. Thanks


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