# Is this fillet brazed (and lugged) frame ready for the powdercoat?



## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

Hello!

First frame built and now dealing with the "rookie brazing mess." 
I have spend a lot of time sanding and don't know when enough is enough. 
Can you please review the images and let me know if the powdercoat will look good?

I know..I know...My brazing needs (and will!) improve!:thumbsup:

Also...what recommendations do you have for sanding the areas below:

1) Headtube fillets:
2) Lug lines

_What I have been doing: _
So far is has been 80 to 100 grit cloth sandpaper strips. (sanding like show shine with attempts to reach certain spots) Using a dremel on low speed to grind off the big blobs of bronze (that is it!)
I have heard that a 10 inch round second cut file can be useful as well to get the fillets smoother?
Needle Files for the lug lines.

Thanks


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Pics attached*

Pics attached


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## tamen00 (Mar 10, 2004)

I am in the same boat as you - about 3/4 way through my first frame and have spent countless hours filing and sanding my cruddy fillets. There was a post by Steve Garro (I think) somewhere on this board regarding finishing fillets (I can not find it for the life of me though...) and I think that he stated to use a 10" Halfround file on the fillet to shape and smooth it - and then use sandpaper to blend and smooth the edges into the tube - while being very very careful not to touch the file to the tube at anytime.

I have done this and have pretty good results with my fillets (I think). The file really helps to smooth everything out and get a nice smooth radius to the fillet. I also used full round files on the tighter angles. 

I totally feel your pain filing and sanding. I wanted my first frame to be fillet brazed because I have always wanted one - however my next one will be tig welded (I am in the process of learning how to Tig, which has been super fun!)


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## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm on my 4th frame, so only a bit ahead of you. If it were me, I'd spend more time on the head tube fillets to blend them into the tubes. That's a very visible area post paint and you'll be glad you did in the long run. I've been using a fine tooth flat file and/or small needle files. The flat needle files are nice because you can "shape" (bend) them as you file. I also found that sandpaper wrapped around a round file is a good tool. Be careful with the Dremel!

Other areas look good!


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

IME, fillets that look like that will show up looking not-so-smooth after you paint or PC them. Some defects get covered up, some get magnified. Especially given that it appears to be a cross bike, I'd guess that the joints are strong enough to hold, so I wouldn't sweat it from that perspective. I've heard of people using Bondo to make smooth fillets. Another thing to try would be to melt a little silver in there to fill in the holes without heating it up enough to weaken anything.

Though I'm not certain at all about any of these (at best armchair) strength estimations.

In my not-so expert opinion, the fork looks pretty decent


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## jocko (Apr 29, 2005)

My powder coater recommended this stuff to fill holes in the brass:

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=1


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

Spray some rattlecan primer on the joints- it's a quick way to see what they will look like under paint and it's easy to sand off to get it ready for pc. 
How much finish work you want to do is up to you, but fwiw, those fillets will look pretty rough when painted/coated.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

For the lug edges, take a small file and grind a radius into one end, so it looks like a butter knife. You can then use it as a scraper to get into the corner and remove the silver buildup.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

I'd say if it's for yourself, stick some paint on it, call it a day and start riding it.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

jocko said:


> My powder coater recommended this stuff to fill holes in the brass:
> 
> http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=1


Uggh, that stuff sucks big time.....trust me.

The reason though is because powder will be attracted to it and it can take the temp vs. standard body filler.

Some of the suggestions are great. You should finish file those fillets on the HT if you want your final results to be smooth. Basically what you see is what you get when it comes to powder or wet finishes.

With wet paint we can fill in much of the issues with body fillers, some of which are very strong (routinely called by the tradename "bondo") but that is a little like calling all paint "dupont".

It works, but the only issue I don't like as a painter is it takes me just as long to finish a joint with filler as it would you to finish it really well so when a builder does this it is kind of like saying, I don't want to work on it anymore, you work on it.

I use a 12'' round bastard to start. I finish the fillet with 80 grit strap trying to stay off the edges and not shoe-shinning too much otherwise it flattens the fillet. Then I try to blend nicely without undercutting which is a hard thing to do.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

I have a question along the lines of this discussion. I've finished three frames so far, and I've been really happy with how my joints turn out...until I get the frames back from the powder coater. It's not that they're lumpy, but there appears to be pits that weren't there when it went to the powdercoater. I'm quite certain that these are now voids that were simply filled with flux. I need to find out the exact process used at the PCer, but I suspect that maybe they are sandblasting the frame and the sandblasting is eroding out some of the brass. From looking inside the tubes after PC, I had thought they chemically dipped the frame, but again, I don't know. Although I did fill a couple pits on the frame with silver, those spots seem ok.

Here you can almost see in the top pic a pit between the top tube and down tube where they meet the head tube. And you can see in the second pic a pit at the top tube where it meets the head tube.

What do you think is going on?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> but there appears to be pits that weren't there when it went to the powdercoater.
> What do you think is going on?


Wow, that looks great!

What you are seeing is just somewhat normal for powder. It is a pinhole in the weld and when it is heated expanding gases make there way through the powder when it is wetting out and create that little void. It always looks way bigger than the actual pinhole that caused it. Only thing you can do is fill them with silver or an aluminum bearing filler (silver is great)

One of the disadvantages of powder on filleted frames. Impressive.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Thanks Dave!

Apparently I need to be even more critical on looking or pinholes. The few that I did fill with silver were really easy to do - it's almost like cheating! Although I learned early on that it helps to lightly grind out the pit to get a fresh surface for the silver to adhere to - just like a dentist does before filling in a cavity.

After getting the frame back, I was again thinking about the survey you posted, and the trade-off of cost vs. quality. I was thinking that these wouldn't likely be visible when wet painted, but at a much higher cost than the few dollars I pay for PC.

Although I've been having my challenging moments, it's been a great experience building my own frames. In the case of the bike show above, I previously hated 29ers, but I figured that if i were to ride one with a different geometry than normally commercially available, I may change my opinion of them. And that it did!


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

The better your fillets, the less voids/pinholes. Sandblasting will usually reveal the pin holes.. it blasts out any flux goo that has been mixed with brass shavings .. that's what covers up the pin holes. They are caused by cold welds, dirty or over heated flux, other contaminates, etc. To really cover yourself, drop it off for blasting, then pick it up and work a bit more on it, then drop off for powder.

-Schmitty-


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

This filing will actually fill the little pinholes and such. The fillet looks great. Then once sandblasted, you can see the pinholes and such. Take it home. Fill the pinholes with silver or JB weld and refinish. You can have it sandblasted again or do a really good cleanup with acetone or other solvent to get your greasy handprints off of the sandblasted tubes. Any thing left on the tubes under powder will lift the coating in time.

BTW, that orange bike looks wicked: fast just sitting there.

B


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## graviT (Aug 9, 2009)

I spent a long time cleaning up the fillets on my first frame until someone asked me what I wanted to be good at, cleaning up messy brazing or brazing well. At that point I decided I was done filing and had it powdercoated so I could move on to my next bike. It's got a few pinholes and has the look of a first bike but it is my daily rider and I still get complements on it.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

graviT said:


> I spent a long time cleaning up the fillets on my first frame until someone asked me what I wanted to be good at, cleaning up messy brazing or brazing well. At that point I decided I was done filing and had it powdercoated so I could move on to my next bike. It's got a few pinholes and has the look of a first bike but it is my daily rider and I still get complements on it.


Agreed. I say just get a nice dark powder color with clear and call it good. That will cover up most anything... just tape off the st where the collar will go (if using a collar) after the color coat and before the clear. Also maybe put plugs in the cable stops at that point or housing ends may be difficult to get into the stops... always a major pita.

-Schmitty-


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Thanks for everyone's feedback! See the frame now.*

As always I appreciate the honest and insightful feedback!
I just finished up sanding down the dropouts for a smoother look at the the seatstays/chainstays. Based on earlier posts I did spend a couple more hours on the headtube area...good recommendations from all. 
I am going to take one more look at all areas and then get it to Spectrum. 
Once it is powdercoated I will post more pics so everyone can see how the suspect areas turned out! Thanks again.


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## illcomm33 (May 10, 2006)

*Powdercoated! Spectrum did a great job*

Well the frame has been powdercoated and I wanted to follow up so others can see how it turned out. Spectrum was amazing to work with (Great people for sure!) and the overall cost ran me about $285..frame and fork). It is a pastel blue powdercoat with a clearcoat.
I did use JB Weld for some of the pinholes....and it worked!


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