# Ragley Carnegie Bars



## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

So I think I'll be getting one, but I'm waiting for the carbon version. I doubt there will be 3 different version of the carbon bar, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I noticed that CRC has 3 versions of the Carnegie's; + rise, - rise, and flat. Anybody care to discuss which version would be the most comfortable and why?

Brant?

Link for the lazy (like me): https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Brands.aspx?BrandID=971


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

I have the flat version, and it is very comfortable. I am 100% satisfied with it. As to which version is the most comfortable totally depends on the individual and their bike setup.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

KeylessChuck said:


> I have the flat version, and it is very comfortable. I am 100% satisfied with it. As to which version is the most comfortable totally depends on the individual and their bike setup.


Did you buy the flat over the other 2 for a reason? I'm just wondering how I can figure out if it would be better to have my hands flat (like you), or have the outside of my hands turned slightly up or down...

Anyway, glad to hear you like em!


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## chuckc1971 (Jul 31, 2002)

I have the rise version. Best alt- or other bar I have tried. I've tried several. Waiting for carbon version.....


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

chuckc1971 said:


> I have the rise version. Best alt- or other bar I have tried. I've tried several. Waiting for carbon version.....


Do you use it with the ends pointing up (as intended), or down? Is the aluminum one harsh?


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## HOLLYWOOD33 (Jan 2, 2009)

I just picked up a set from a member here (waiting for them to arrive).... Shutterbug67 is the guy...

I believe mine are the 1" rise.... I look forward to trying them out and giving you my opinion soon....


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## chuckc1971 (Jul 31, 2002)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Do you use it with the ends pointing up (as intended), or down? Is the aluminum one harsh?


Goes out to garage and looks at bike...... They are run conventional, not flipped or "droopy." I think that is what you meant. I adjusted the tilt of the bar till it felt comfortable. The Ergons I am running feel great with this bar.

I run this bar on a full-quish bike. As such, I've never been able to discern the harshness of one handlebar over the other. I've never run this bar on my rigid SS. Waiting for the carbon version for that.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

chuckc1971 said:


> Goes out to garage and looks at bike...... They are run conventional, not flipped or "droopy." I think that is what you meant. I adjusted the tilt of the bar till it felt comfortable. The Ergons I am running feel great with this bar.
> 
> I run this bar on a full-quish bike. As such, I've never been able to discern the harshness of one handlebar over the other. I've never run this bar on my rigid SS. Waiting for the carbon version for that.


Good to know, thanks for checking the garage for me. I will be riding 100% rigid, that's why I'm waiting for carbon too. If I like it enough, I might get an aluminum one for my other bike (the one I don't like to ride as much).


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

HOLLYWOOD33 said:


> I just picked up a set from a member here (waiting for them to arrive).... Shutterbug67 is the guy...
> 
> I believe mine are the 1" rise.... I look forward to trying them out and giving you my opinion soon....


Cool, please do come back and give details and feedback. And try it both flipped up and down, if you don't mind being the geunie pig!


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## HOLLYWOOD33 (Jan 2, 2009)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Cool, please do come back and give details and feedback. And try it both flipped up and down, if you don't mind being the geunie pig!


:thumbsup:


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

In my humble opinion, I don't think that the "rise" (negative or positive) will have much effect on comfort beyond how high off the ground the bars end up being with a particular stem. 

The difference between the aluminum and carbon materials is big though. The carbon has a definite "give" while the alloy Carnegie's has none. To my mind, this will affect your comfort to a far greater degree than whether you run them flipped, or whether you have rise, or flat. (Assuming their would be that choice in carbon Carnegie's at some point).

I agree with the earlier poster that these are definitely the best "alt bars" ( that are not drop bars) out there now for aggressive trail riding.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Guitar Ted said:


> I agree with the earlier poster that these are definitely the best "alt bars" ( that are not drop bars) out there now for aggressive trail riding.


Thanks for commenting GT. If money were no object, I would already own a Gryphon with Woodchippers. As it is, I think the carbon Carnegie will be all the money I can spend for a while. I just wish I knew WHEN!


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

I agree with G-Ted - it's about height of the bar, not comfort.

Well, all except his "alloy bars have no flex" - as they do (they are a cantilevered beam), but the carbon ones have about 2.5 times more deflection.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

The Carnegie maybe the best of the alt bars IMHO with its slightly more modest 25 deg backsweep. I have been on a handlebar frenzy and just removed the Mary bar from my rig.
I am going back to a more conventional riser bar with 10 degrees backsweep. The reason is quite simple. Having experimented with many different bars, it is now clear to me why top riders ride a low backsweep bar and and not a bar with bigger backsweep. Keep in mind, top riders endure the harshest conditions on their wrists and hands and racers are the most vigilant of all about protecting against injury.. The reason I am going back to a more conventional mtb bar is because a pronounced backsweep causes the bar to run very close to the ulnar nerve with a natural wrist position. With less backsweep as with a conventional mtb bar, the bar handle runs more along the base of the fingers which is less stressful to the hand reducing pressure on the Guyon canal which if loaded for prolonged intervals can cause handlebar palsy...common with off roading.
My thoughts...


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

dirtrider7 said:


> The Carnegie maybe the best of the alt bars IMHO with its slightly more modest 25 deg backsweep. I have been on a handlebar frenzy and just removed the Mary bar from my rig.
> I am going back to a more conventional riser bar with 10 degrees backsweep. The reason is quite simple. Having experimented with many different bars, it is now clear to me why top riders ride a low backsweep bar and and not a bar with bigger backsweep. Keep in mind, top riders endure the harshest conditions on their wrists and hands and racers are the most vigilant of all about protecting against injury.. The reason I am going back to a more conventional mtb bar is because a pronounced backsweep causes the bar to run very close to the ulnar nerve with a natural wrist position. With less backsweep as with a conventional mtb bar, the bar handle runs more along the base of the fingers which is less stressful to the hand reducing pressure on the Guyon canal which if loaded for prolonged intervals can cause handlebar palsy...common with off roading.
> My thoughts...


Bars are a highly personal choice, as is saddles, and tire preference, and color preference, and tubing preference........

Counterpoint:

1- he's riding rigid. The lower sweep bars allow the 'top riders' a better attack position critical to going fast on their _suspended_ race bikes. The higher sweep alt bars better facilitate rigid riding requirements (i.e. use of arms to absorb impacts). What works for each person varys. Personally - I like the J-bar and it's 45 (I think) degree sweep.

2- since you used Lance in your example of a top rider using normal sweep bars (that's what I took from the context anyway, unless you really are Lance :skep: ), I'll offer that he spends a good deal of time in on his _other_ bike in what we would refer to as an alt position in the MTB world. 










Carry on, use the bar, seat, tires, gears, water bottles, energy gels, helmet, gloves, shorts and tubing choice you prefer.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

*mixed experience*

I like the sweep, I ran the risers with the ends 'drooping', I had some brake issues.

The Carnegie's sweep is very natural for my needs: I run a Misfit Fubar on my city bike which I love the bends on, but the width is a little narrow for me on the trail and transitioning between the two bars was seemless. All of my bars end up below horizontal, when I try a new bar if the outside of my palm gets sore I tilt it back a bit, I have found that I end up with my bars swept down a bit regardless of whether it is my conventional Race Face Diabolus or my high sweep Misfit Fubar.

Not all was roses though, I like my brake levers set up with the end hook in front of my index finger and this is not possible with the Carnegie's. I regularly run first generation Shimano hydraulic levers and there is only enough control space for me to manage a two finger braking setup with the hook in front of my middle finger. I even tried a set of Avid Elixirs to see if a different brake would solve the issue, but I ended up with the same set up woes.

Oh, and how do you ride with the bar along the base of your fingers? If my bar doesn't pass across the centre of my palm I can't control the bike without a deathgip between my index finger and thumb which is a comfort killer.


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## Paladin (Aug 7, 2006)

*Bars*



dirtrider7 said:


> I am going back to a more conventional riser bar with 10 degrees backsweep....


Can you tell us which bars you are thinking of?


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## patrex (Oct 25, 2009)

*Re: Ragley Carnegie's Bar*

I've been running the Aluminum riser Carnegie's on my stock Redline Mono-cog Flight for 2 months now with good results. I switched from the stock Syncros Fixxed h-bar (flat) with 11 degrees of sweep, and kept the cockpit dimensions identical. 
I ride east coast roots, mud & rocky stuff, I'm 5' 10", 145 lbs.
I'm still fine tuning the 'feel' of the new bars and cockpit setup, but I am certain these bars are as stiff as my previous ones.
It's been said before in this and other posts, BUT- The new arm and wrist position allows my upper body to absorb shock better. I get less fatigue in my hands in stutter sections, and am able to relax my grip & let the front end do more work. 
I started with them pointed at the rear drops, then slowly turned them up during a test ride. The carbon Carnegie's will be PLUSH, you'll love them.

Enjoy the ride-


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> I am going back to a more conventional riser bar with 10 degrees backsweep. The reason is quite simple. Having experimented with many different bars, it is now clear to me why top riders ride a low backsweep bar and and not a bar with bigger backsweep. Keep in mind, top riders endure the harshest conditions on their wrists and hands and racers are the most vigilant of all about protecting against injury.


He rides a 26in wheeled bike, and wears lycra a lot. Are you going to copy that too?


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

GreenLightGo said:


> Bars are a highly personal choice, as is saddles, and tire preference, and color preference, and tubing preference........
> 
> Counterpoint:
> 
> ...


Lance is a great example because he is a champion both on and off road. He is an exceptional champion in other words. Plus, he is hypervigilant with both his set ups. He is a champion btw in part because of his attention to detail. His crew tech's at Trek say he can feel 1mm difference in cockpit change. I know I can feel 3 mm's. Also for a champion level road and mtb'er Lance rides a very pedestrian position on the bike with very little drop. For all Lance's unfathomable physical gifts, flexibility isn't his strength...hence his curved back that is so written about including TT position. If you ride both mtb and road, you know that the handlebar ergo's aren't in the same strata. I have ridden road for 30 years and yes Brant I ride Lycra even on my mtb on occasion. The hood position on a road bike is quite unlike the wrist position on a mtb with a high backsweep bar....the latter being more unfriendly to where the handle end crosses the palm with end of bar closer to the wrist. I will repeat, conventional mtb bike handlebars have evolved the way they have for a reason. The bar end position of a conventional low backsweep mtb handlebar which is important due to greater loading off road places less pressure on the ulnar nerve.
Perhaps the best example is to remove Lance completely as an example and ask a simple question. Name a single champion mtb'er who competes with a alternative handlebar? Simply look at the guys that ride for a living who protect at all costs against injury. You will see subtle variation in bar sweep, but I personally don't know of a single champion rider that rides over 8 degrees of backsweep.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Lord Humongous said:


> I like the sweep, I ran the risers with the ends 'drooping', I had some brake issues.
> 
> The Carnegie's sweep is very natural for my needs: I run a Misfit Fubar on my city bike which I love the bends on, but the width is a little narrow for me on the trail and transitioning between the two bars was seemless. All of my bars end up below horizontal, when I try a new bar if the outside of my palm gets sore I tilt it back a bit, I have found that I end up with my bars swept down a bit regardless of whether it is my conventional Race Face Diabolus or my high sweep Misfit Fubar.
> 
> ...


Point of clarification. Let's think in terms of thirds. Base of fingers, middle of palm and near wrist close to Guyon canal aka heel of hand close to wrist. Geometry dictates that for any given natural wrist position which is a function of bar width and closeness of the rider to the bar, that a high backsweep alternative bar will place the centerline of the handlebar end closer to the base of the palm/wrist...not good.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Paladin said:


> Can you tell us which bars you are thinking of?


Here you go. Please keep in mind that many good riders would dismiss even these as having too much backsweep. Within the spectrum of mtb bars, I prefer a bit of backsweep for a more natural wrist position. Point I am making is, lack of cruiser type bar...or limbo zone between cruiser and mtb bars...enter alt bars have been scarce for a reason...not the best for riding off road. Cruiser bars btw are generally more conducive to riding more upright than most would prefer off road who want to pressurize their front wheel a bit for handling.
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?ID=89948-Salsa+Pro+Moto+Xc+Aluminum+Riser+Handlebar


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> Hear you go. Please keep in mind that many would dismiss even these as having too much backsweep. Within the spectrum of mtb bars, I prefer a bit of backsweep for a more natural wrist position
> http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?ID=89948-Salsa+Pro+Moto+Xc+Aluminum+Riser+Handlebar


First of all, I respect your personal choice in handle bars as being _right for you. _ I also respect that professional bicycle riders, who are very wary of "radical changes" in any given area of their discipline, (witness riding a 29"er in an event, which is only now gaining miniscule acceptance amongst professional level mountain bikers), is a measuring stick for what _you think_ is important for set ups on a mountain bike.

Now I will say that what you are thinking of for a handle bar here, (the Salsa riser bar) is exactly what I replaced with a Carnegie's Bar. I liked the Carnegie's far better.

As for hand pain, my experience is that this has far more to do with the grips I use than the handle bar sweep. That's _my experience._ And I suffer from hand pain badly with the wrong grips.

Finally, while you have found what works for you, (and I understand why in part from your apologetic on your choice), it isn't at all what would work out best for me. Also, while modeling Professional bicycle set ups may be a worthy goal for some, the reality is that most of us do not ride that way, so this would be a misguided role to model for myself, and for most cyclists I deal with in the shop where I work. (Lance's more _pedestrian position _not with standing.) It also might be worth noting that I feel the Carnegie's Bar is not aimed at the same sort of off road riding that a Lance Armstrong or any other XC racer would be doing.


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## Ocho (Dec 1, 2009)

dirtrider7 said:


> Point of clarification. Let's think in terms of thirds. Base of fingers, middle of palm and near wrist close to Guyon canal aka heel of hand close to wrist. Geometry dictates that for any given natural wrist position which is a function of bar width and closeness of the rider to the bar, that a high backsweep alternative bar will place the centerline of the handlebar end closer to the base of the palm/wrist...not good.


Geometry of the body also has a lot to do with where your hands are placed relative to the handlebars. Your style might lend your observations correct, and its cool you figured it out but thats not the case for everyone. I could point to several references but it would bore the crap out of people...suffice to say that sweep bars, if they work for an individual, are no worse for you than any other bars. Motorcycle riders have employed swept back bars for eons depending on their overall riding position and movement in the saddle.


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## HHL (Nov 24, 2004)

As for hand pain, my experience is that this has far more to do with the grips I use than the handle bar sweep. That's _my experience._ And I suffer from hand pain badly with the wrong grips. (Guitar Ted)

The right grips make a big difference for me in the Ulnar area. Shallow sweep bars still give me chronic pain in the thumb area. My thumb is rotated too far back, which puts constant stress on the joints and tendons between the thumb and the wrist. This doesn't happen on road drops, or if I act like my thumb is not opposable and line it up with my fingers. This is why I have a Carnegie bar coming: to see where the sweep becomes tolerable, I don't really want drop bars if I can avoid it. I've been using the 11 Salsa promoto, and it is not enough sweep.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> For all Lance's unfathomable physical gifts, flexibility isn't his strength...hence his curved back that is so written about including TT position.


On the narrow rubber 700c...



On the wide rubber 700c...


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## Paladin (Aug 7, 2006)

*Carbon?*

Is there any ETA on the carbon version?


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

dirtrider7 said:


> Name a single champion mtb'er who competes with a alternative handlebar? Simply look at the guys that ride for a living who protect at all costs against injury. You will see subtle variation in bar sweep, but I personally don't know of a single champion rider that rides over 8 degrees of backsweep.


Tomac


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## alexkraemer (Jul 30, 2007)

Paladin said:


> Is there any ETA on the carbon version?


I want to know this too. I'm holding off on buying my next handlebar until the Black Plastic version is available.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

dirtrider7 said:


> Name a single champion mtb'er who competes with a alternative handlebar?


Name a single champion mtb'er who competes with 650b wheels? None?
Well, I guess that settles it. Nobody should ever use them.

PS - you seem to love sweeping generalizations. Here's one for you: for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, easy to articulate, and dead wrong.


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## sennaster (Sep 21, 2006)

Jeremiah Bishop ring a bell?



schnee said:


> Name a single champion mtb'er who competes with 650b wheels? None?
> Well, I guess that settles it. Nobody should ever use them.
> 
> PS - you seem to love sweeping generalizations. Here's one for you: for every complex problem, there's an answer that's simple, easy to articulate, and dead wrong.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

BruceBrown said:


> On the narrow rubber 700c...
> 
> 
> 
> On the wide rubber 700c...


I can get in the same position Bruce and I'm 55 years old with average flexibility. Notice his saddle to bar drop. Its almost recreational and draws a lot of comments when most elite racers run with at least 5 inches on the road like Basso shown. LA's mtb is also set up very average...almost as a comfort bike only more stretched out. He proves you can be world class without riding ridiculously slammed. Contrast Lance to his good friend big George.
Lance is really a page out the past in terms of fit pretty closely patterned after the great cannibal below who is arguably the greatest road racer of all time who struggled with pain most of his entire career and who also rode fairly upright. He pretty most owned the hour record on a steel bike of all things of over 30 mph average until recently when it was bettered on a superior and lighter bike. By contrast a decent roadie can't hold 30 mph for more than 2 minutes...lol.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

sennaster said:


> Jeremiah Bishop ring a bell?


Hush, I'm trying to score cheap rhetorical points!


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

HHL said:


> As for hand pain, my experience is that this has far more to do with the grips I use than the handle bar sweep. That's _my experience._ And I suffer from hand pain badly with the wrong grips. (Guitar Ted)
> 
> The right grips make a big difference for me in the Ulnar area. *Shallow sweep bars still give me chronic pain in the thumb area.* My thumb is rotated too far back, which puts constant stress on the joints and tendons between the thumb and the wrist. This doesn't happen on road drops, or if I act like my thumb is not opposable and line it up with my fingers. This is why I have a Carnegie bar coming: to see where the sweep becomes tolerable, I don't really want drop bars if I can avoid it. I've been using the 11 Salsa promoto, and it is not enough sweep.


Yup...tell you what that is due to. Your bars are too forward relative to your riding position.
Try a simple experient. Take your hands and place them straight out from your shoulders.
Notice your hands will have a sweep of 15 deg or so. Many that like higher backsweep bars ride with either an upright torso with arms well out in front or really stretched out.
Now take your hands and move them closer to your body and notice how your elbows stick out. You will actually get into a zero hand angle relative to your body. Strong riders tend to ride with pretty aggressive bent over torso angle. This moves the grips closer to the body and why stronger riders typically prefer less backsweep. Take another look at Lance on his mtb who exemplifies this.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Guitar Ted said:


> First of all, I respect your personal choice in handle bars as being _right for you. _ I also respect that professional bicycle riders, who are very wary of "radical changes" in any given area of their discipline, (witness riding a 29"er in an event, which is only now gaining miniscule acceptance amongst professional level mountain bikers), is a measuring stick for what _you think_ is important for set ups on a mountain bike.
> 
> Now I will say that what you are thinking of for a handle bar here, (the Salsa riser bar) is exactly what I replaced with a Carnegie's Bar. I liked the Carnegie's far better.
> 
> ...


I respect you too Ted and always enjoy your reviews and perspective. Glad you like the Carnegie bars which are a very nice medium between typical mountain bike and more cruiser style bar aka Mary.
Yes racers aren't always the best to emulate...but they teach us a lot in they way they ride. When Lance won Leadville this year coming off his 3rd place finish in the TdF he went there to avend his defeat against Weins...but he clearly chose that race because it fit his strength. Leadville isn't highly technical. Its just flat ass grueling with all its climbing. Quite right, don't think you will see an alt bars in that competition. That can be construed a couple of ways. I can tell you one thing though Ted. Top cyclists, don't like hurting themselves and are hugely careful about injury. If a 20degree backsweep bar were more conducive to hand and wrist health, they would be on them...given they are as fast.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Ocho said:


> *Geometry of the body* also has a lot to do with where your hands are placed relative to the handlebars. Your style might lend your observations correct, and its cool you figured it out but thats not the case for everyone. I could point to several references but it would bore the crap out of people...suffice to say that sweep bars, if they work for an individual, are no worse for you than any other bars. Motorcycle riders have employed swept back bars for eons depending on their overall riding position and movement in the saddle.


Actually has more to do with you position on the bike than anatomy. Yes there is synergy between the two tho. Motorcycle rider here as well. Typical motorcyle position is more stretched out and why more backsweep works.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

KeylessChuck said:


> Tomac


He must of just switched lol as his riding position really captures why a low backsweep handlebar works. Notice his aggressive back angle and hands in relatively close to his body. Pretty hard to be comfortable with a high backsweep bar in this position.
Maybe he changed religions.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

GreenLightGo said:


> Bars are a highly personal choice, as is saddles, and tire preference, and color preference, and tubing preference........
> 
> Counterpoint:
> 
> ...


Actually the opposite is true. You need more shock absorption in your arms riding rigid which is faciliated by elbow more bent and away from your body that a conventional *low backsweep handlebar promotes*. If you contrast the position on his road bike with that of mtb the contrast can be easily explained. Because you don't ride as stretched out off road as you do on road, your arms need to be bent to facilitate shock absorption. Not so on road. Road bikes are ridden at higher speed where aerodynamics are more important. Aerodynamics are improved with a more stretched out straigher armed style of riding. A straighter armed position promotes a more natural shake hands hood and hook position with more aero arms closer to the body.


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## hsakkire (Mar 6, 2010)

*My 2 cents.........*

1. Alt bars aren't for everyone and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc.

2. experimenting with angle, height, etc makes a big difference. For example, I love the Mary bar but only run upside down. I cannot find a comfortable position with it in the "upright" position.

3. imitating someone's form, components, etc. doesn't necessarily make you fast like them. I've come across some guys on seriously old equipment that isn't sporting the latest bling and they could smoke most other folks on the trail.

Either way, all that really matters is that we all get out and ride as much as possible. If an alt bar helps you do that, great. If not, use whatever gets you motivated to ride more.

One more thing, for ME, the upside down Mary helps my hand considerably. I fractured it a couple of years ago and this bar just works for me. I don't know all the science behind it, it just does.

YMMV


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## rojogonzo (Jan 24, 2008)

I like to go fast, I usually build and plan on leisure, however


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> He must of just switched lol as his riding position really captures why a low backsweep handlebar works. Notice his aggressive back angle and hands in relatively close to his body. Pretty hard to be comfortable with a high backsweep bar in this position.
> Maybe he changed religions.


I think the original intent of KeylessChuck's response was to answer you "who uses/used an alternative handle bar?" to which he answered "Tomac" and he is absolutely correct. Tomac used a drop bar in competition during his Yeti years when he was also on the 7/11 road team. He was trying to have similar positions from his road to his mtb rig. Talk about alternative! He definitely was using an "alt bar" for mtb. Didn't slow him down either.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> Actually the opposite is true. You need more shock absorption in your arms riding rigid which is faciliated by elbow more bent and away from your body that a conventional *low backsweep handlebar promotes*.


Sorry but here you are way off the mark. This becomes a matter of riding styles and what bar works to facilitate that style more than anything you are trying to argue for here.

Higher backsweep bars with elbows in can and does help with absorbing shock on rough trails. I can ride in either "elbows out/attack style" with low back sweep bars or with elbows inward on highly back swept bars. I just happen to prefer one over the other.


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## Ocho (Dec 1, 2009)

dirtrider7 said:


> Actually has more to do with you position on the bike than anatomy. Yes there is synergy between the two tho. Motorcycle rider here as well. Typical motorcyle position is more stretched out and why more backsweep works.


What type of motorcycle riding? I road race, or did for lots and lots of years and was never stretched out. And there is a huge amount of synergy relative to your body position and your anatomy even to the point of where your strengths physically are. I've found the same thing in bicycling. Riding style has so much to do with hand position and hand position. I ride long distances on motos, touring up to 14 hrs in the saddle at times. The same swept bars I use on my tourer would never work on my race bikes or dirt bikes. Yet my hands are never numb on either. Because I'm constantly moving them, flexing them to shift, to brake, etc. and all that moving means new positions. Thats the style I use there and everyone has their own style - pro or amateur. You can't say any one way is correct - only whats correct for them. And you.


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## HOLLYWOOD33 (Jan 2, 2009)

Got my bars today and did a ride at my local trail.....

I freakin' love these things!!! I am amazed at how much more relaxed I feel and how much more control I have..... Seriously, I don't think I can go back to conventional bars now....

Here are some pics before the ride......... Thanks Shutterbug67 for the awesome bars!!!! :thumbsup:


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

HOLLYWOOD33 said:


> Got my bars today and did a ride at my local trail.....
> 
> I freakin' love these things!!! I am amazed at how much more relaxed I feel and how much more control I have..... Seriously, I don't think I can go back to conventional bars now....
> 
> Here are some pics before the ride......... Thanks Shutterbug67 for the awesome bars!!!! :thumbsup:


Sweet bike!


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## HOLLYWOOD33 (Jan 2, 2009)

KeylessChuck said:


> Sweet bike!


Thank you Sir!!


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Thanks so far to everyone for the comments and discussion. I wouldn't mind if it kept up.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> He must of just switched lol as his riding position really captures why a low backsweep handlebar works. Notice his aggressive back angle and hands in relatively close to his body. Pretty hard to be comfortable with a high backsweep bar in this position.
> Maybe he changed religions.


Question for you... You seem to feel that a straighter bar positioned more closely (ie shorter cockpit) allows you to have more shock absorbing ability in your arms. I can see that might be true for some people, maybe even me. But I SS a lot... Do you think the placement of the handlebars would need to be different for someone who rides standing a lot more often than a spinning racer type?


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

HOLLYWOOD33 said:


> Thank you Sir!!


Yes, nice. Now show us a picture of your position on the bike!


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## HOLLYWOOD33 (Jan 2, 2009)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Yes, nice. Now show us a picture of your position on the bike!


If you're talking about my riding position, I'm more upright than most....

Riding position has more to do with the height of the bars / seat IMHO.... With these bars, I could just as easily flip them upside down and remove some of the spacers in my headset stack, or I could raise the seat more....

If you're on the fence about these bars, I don't know what else to say except that I just placed an order with Chain Reaction Cycles for another set (1" rise) for my hard-tail...........

God luck......... :thumbsup:


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Guitar Ted said:


> Sorry but here you are way off the mark. This becomes a matter of riding styles and what bar works to facilitate that style more than anything you are trying to argue for here.
> 
> Higher backsweep bars with elbows in can and does help with absorbing shock on rough trails. I can ride in either "elbows out/attack style" with low back sweep bars or with elbows inward on highly back swept bars. I just happen to prefer one over the other.


You can believe what you want Ted and you do. It isn't even close between the two methods. Desired sweep is a function of:
- width of rider's shoulders
- distance from rider to the bar based upon posture and cockpit length
- width of the bars

Wanting higher sweep is a function of the above. The farther the bar is away from your body, the straighter your arms are and the more backsweep required to put your wrists in a comfortable position. The straighter your arms as with a road bike position, the less shock absorbing ability. Basic physics and as I explained why 99.5% of all mtb racers and most recreational riders fit properly ride with a low backsweep bar off road.
If you want a higher sweep handlebar aka Carnegie, which is function of riding with your arms straighter, you will not have the same shock absorbing quality with your arms. The reason many seek such a position btw is do to poor upper body strength. It is easy to hold your torso up straight armed with skeleton than it is to use your musculature.
Tomac's position illustrates exceptional shock absorbing capability because he holds up his torso with core strength and not his skeleton btw. The hand pain you mention is because you ride the opposite, using your arms to hold up your torso.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> - If you want a higher sweep handlebar aka Carnegie, which is function of riding with your arms straighter, you will not have the same shock absorbing quality with your arms. The reason many seek such a position btw is do to poor upper body strength. It is easy to hold your torso up straight armed with skeleton than it is to use your musculature.
> Tomac's position illustrates exceptional shock absorbing capability because he holds up his torso with core strength and not his skeleton btw. The hand pain you mention is because you ride the opposite, using your arms to hold up your torso.


Bzzzzzzt! Wrong again. Now you are making pointed assumptions about my personal riding style, position, and body make up.

Sorry, but your arguments fall flat with me due to this. I'll be moving along now. Happy trails......


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Guitar Ted said:


> Bzzzzzzt! Wrong again. Now you are making pointed assumptions about my personal riding style, position, and body make up.
> 
> Sorry, but your arguments fall flat with me due to this. I'll be moving along now. Happy trails......


Bzzzzzz. See ya. Ride safe.


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## rojogonzo (Jan 24, 2008)

I could ride a beach cruiser on that trail the Giant rider is on in the pic, nothing like that around here, sadly. I've just purchased a used bike, I fear the top tube is a tad long for me, I plan on a swept bar to help with that but haven't chosen one yet, all the positive vibes around the carnegie have me deciding between that, salsa and bonty big sweep.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

Ted's point is easily grasped with a simple body experiment. Bend your elbows somewhere around 60*-90* and put your hands in front of your shoulders. Now, watch your hands as you 'flap' your elbows from pointing out to the side to tucked in close to your ribcage. Doing this makes no change to your effective reach between shoulders and hands, but it does alter the relative attitude of your hands when compared to the rest of your body. It is easy to see why straighter bars work better for an elbows out riding position while swept bars work better for an elbows in riding position. Both positions allow your joints to actuate and absorb shock, but the emphasis is on different muscle groups.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Lord Humongous said:


> Ted's point is easily grasped with a simple body experiment. Bend your elbows somewhere around 60*-90* and put your hands in front of your shoulders. Now, watch your hands as you 'flap' your elbows from pointing out to the side to tucked in close to your ribcage. Doing this makes no change to your effective reach between shoulders and hands, but it does alter the relative attitude of your hands when compared to the rest of your body. It is easy to see why straighter bars work better for an elbows out riding position while swept bars work better for an elbows in riding position. Both positions allow your joints to actuate and absorb shock, *but the emphasis is on different muscle groups*.


Begs the question though doesn't it? Which muscle group is better support for the torso when enduring the rigors of riding off road? I have never seen anybody do a push up with their elbows in.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

HOLLYWOOD33 said:


> If you're on the fence about these bars...:


No, just waiting for carbon.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> Begs the question though doesn't it? Which muscle group is better support for the torso when enduring the rigors of riding off road? I have never seen anybody do a push up with their elbows in.


Please respond to my previous question to you regarding cockpit length and riding style if you missed it.


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> Begs the question though doesn't it? Which muscle group is better support for the torso when enduring the rigors of riding off road? I have never seen anybody do a push up with their elbows in.


Go to a yoga class. Cobra into Upward Dog Vinyasa is done with elbows in. This does, however, require stronger serrateus anteriors, subscapularis, and teres.
Greater bar sweep may not work for you, but it helps me ride very rocky trails quickly on a fully rigid single speed. Going back to a lower sweep felet very uncomfortable, and I felt that I had considerably less control.

Los


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

*SS and bars*

I will attempt to address your question, WIWR, from a different angle. When climbing out of the saddle, do you ever hit your knees on the bar? If not, it is possible that a shorter cockpit with a straighter bar could work out for you. The nice thing about straight bars is that they have been on the market for a while and chances are that you or a friend has one or two that you can experiment with. Any stem will do for testing, just go out with two or three lengths of stem and see if you find a comfortable setup that allows you to have adequate weight on the front tire and good control in the rough while reducing your fatigue over a given length of time. Pick a loop and ride it with the different stems to see what you prefer.

I find on my singlespeed with a straight bar (9-12 degrees is straight in my non Euclidian world) that just barely tapping my knees on the bar from time to time is about the right balance between standing climbing and handling in the rough. That is not to say that you should be in that specific position, it is just to give you an idea that there is a breaking point after which you will not want to move your bar any closer to your seat with shorter stems due to other physical constraints.

I find my Diabolus bar works out best with a 60mm stem while my Fubar is better with a 100mm stem, those stem combos incidentally give me an identical reach from shoulder to thumb/index finger grip. The side effect of the swept bar and longer stem is that with most alt bars I no longer tap my knees occasionally.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

*Pushups*

Well, I can't resist. How many people do pushups with their elbows pointing straight out? Biomechanics and ergonomics both share similar gray natures, with most people falling comfortably on a bell curve between extremes. I used the two extreme elbow positions so that change seen at the hands would be exaggerated and immediately recognizable. The point I was trying to make is that bar sweep is not just 
"a function of:
- width of rider's shoulders
- distance from rider to the bar based upon posture and cockpit length
- width of the bars"
but also depends on the attitude of your elbows with respect to your shoulders.

That said, I am definitely a delta pushup position kind of guy, with my elbows somewhere around 60 degrees out from my torso or 30 degrees down from my shoulders. My shoulder complex gets very aggravated if I try and keep my elbows at shoulder height while doing pressing exercises. Come to think of it, my shoulder complex used to get angry about riding in the rough.


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## theycallmeE (Aug 21, 2007)

dirtrider7 said:


> Begs the question though doesn't it? Which muscle group is better support for the torso when enduring the rigors of riding off road? I have never seen anybody do a push up with their elbows in.


With all due respect dr7, rather than theorizing about this question, why don't you answer two simple question...

1) Have you ridden extensively with both alt and "regular" bars?

2) How would you describe your personal experience with each?

It seem like from the comments that most of the folks who like alt bars have tried them and found they worked for them. Isnt' that enough? Cheers,

E


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

theycallmeE said:


> With all due respect dr7, rather than theorizing about this question, why don't you answer two simple question...
> 
> 1) Have you ridden extensively with both alt and "regular" bars?
> 
> ...


Yes, it is enough. I just made the simple observation there is a bonafide reason that 98% of all mtb's sold and raced have a low backsweep bar. You may want to bowl with single hole bowling ball or play golf crosshanded but conventions evolve for a reason. A lot of people don't know why mountain bikes have low backsweep bars and I was merely explaining it. If you ride a mtb like a cruiser than the sweep is all wrong. A mtb is meant to be ridden with some forward lean to pressurize the front wheel with the bar in a bit closer and why the ergo's of less sweep work. If you don't ride this way, your wrists won't feel comfortable. Just be careful what you wish for as that high backsweep bar will run closer to the wrist and can promote ulnar nerve pressure...the case for me. 
Cheers.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Please respond to my previous question to you regarding cockpit length and riding style if you missed it.


I liked LH's response. At the end of the day, you have to experiment. That maybe be 5 handlebars and 5 stems and maybe even a couple of frame sizes. I liked alt bars for climbing out of the saddle personally so you may as well. As LH suggested before you dismiss convention and move to the dark aka alternative side  moving your bar closer HAS TO morph your wrist position to more linear side to side and you may rekindle your appreciation for a traditional mtb handlebar.


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## HHL (Nov 24, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHL
As for hand pain, my experience is that this has far more to do with the grips I use than the handle bar sweep. That's my experience. And I suffer from hand pain badly with the wrong grips. (Guitar Ted)

The right grips make a big difference for me in the Ulnar area. Shallow sweep bars still give me chronic pain in the thumb area. My thumb is rotated too far back, which puts constant stress on the joints and tendons between the thumb and the wrist. This doesn't happen on road drops, or if I act like my thumb is not opposable and line it up with my fingers. This is why I have a Carnegie bar coming: to see where the sweep becomes tolerable, I don't really want drop bars if I can avoid it. I've been using the 11 Salsa promoto, and it is not enough sweep. 

Yup...tell you what that is due to. Your bars are too forward relative to your riding position.
Try a simple experient. Take your hands and place them straight out from your shoulders.
Notice your hands will have a sweep of 15 deg or so. Many that like higher backsweep bars ride with either an upright torso with arms well out in front or really stretched out.
Now take your hands and move them closer to your body and notice how your elbows stick out. You will actually get into a zero hand angle relative to your body. Strong riders tend to ride with pretty aggressive bent over torso angle. This moves the grips closer to the body and why stronger riders typically prefer less backsweep. Take another look at Lance on his mtb who exemplifies this. 

I see your point, and it is well taken. However, it points out that for some of us, straight bars would lead to knees in the bar, compared to swept bars, given our prefered body position. My challenge, and the challenge for many riders is, therefore, to find the sweep that allows us to have our body where we like it, as well as our hands, both standing and seated. And, I do have a fairly strong core. I will experiment with some combinations, moving the seat, putting on bars that sweep from 9 to 24 degrees, as that is what I have, standing, seated, using my core more agressively. However, I've found that there is a particular cockpit length that I favor, be it road or Mtb, and the bars will have to favor this length, even as I work on the thumb problem.


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## HHL (Nov 24, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> Begs the question though doesn't it? Which muscle group is better support for the torso when enduring the rigors of riding off road? I have never seen anybody do a push up with their elbows in.


Then you haven't been to yoga class. Ask a physical therapist or certified trainer. They will tell you that elbows in, or hands in a fist turned up and down, is easier on the joints. The machines in a gym now have both positions, one like you propose on a flat bar, and one more like a roadie drop bar, for those wanting to protect their joints. The question may come down to "how many years do you want to be able to mtb?"


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## rojogonzo (Jan 24, 2008)

this is great

i hurt my wrists riding sunday last and i thought it was just because i was hammering down


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Lord Humongous said:


> I will attempt to address your question, WIWR, from a different angle. When climbing out of the saddle, do you ever hit your knees on the bar? If not, it is possible that a shorter cockpit with a straighter bar could work out for you. The nice thing about straight bars is that they have been on the market for a while and chances are that you or a friend has one or two that you can experiment with. Any stem will do for testing, just go out with two or three lengths of stem and see if you find a comfortable setup that allows you to have adequate weight on the front tire and good control in the rough while reducing your fatigue over a given length of time. Pick a loop and ride it with the different stems to see what you prefer.


I have used; Race Face alloy riser, narrow Easton Monkeylite, Mary bars, Midge bars, ti Flat Tracker, Jones H-bar, and Groovy Luv Handles, and stems between 80mm and 110mm.

I'm currently using the 9 degree ti bar on the 90mm stem. I don't think my knees are close to the bar at all, although I can whack my knee against the back of the stem pretty easy. :eekster:


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

HHL said:


> Then you haven't been to yoga class. Ask a physical therapist or certified trainer. They will tell you that elbows in, or hands in a fist turned up and down, is easier on the joints. The machines in a gym now have both positions, one like you propose on a flat bar, and one more like a roadie drop bar, for those wanting to protect their joints. The question may come down to "how many years do you want to be able to mtb?"


I think the question is more directed to you and not me. I am the one here adhering to convention i.e. endorsing what 99% of all endurance mtb'ers ride. You must think that racers are cavalier about their equipment or even injury prevention. The converse it true.
If you want to protect your hands you do not want the grip of your handlebar running adjacent to the Guyon canal of your wrist aka a higher sweep handlebar. Basic geometry dictates this to be the case.
I will leave with you perhaps the best words I have read on all too common handlebar palsy, Guyon canal and Ulnar nerve damage.

Your symptoms sound more consistent with ulnar nerve compression instead of carpal tunnel syndrome which is due to entrapment of the median nerve in the carpal tunnel. The median nerve goes to the thumb, index, middle and part of the ring finger on the side next to the middle finger. The ulnar nerve goes to the ring finger on the side of the little finger and to the little finger. The ulnar nerve runs on the palm side over the bones in the heal of the hand on the little finger side. Symptoms of ulnar nerve compression are pain, burning, tingling and/or numbness to the ring and little finger. They are often brought on by activities which compress the nerve such as riding a bike or using a jack hammer.

Treatment for a cyclist include simple things such as switching to thicker padded hand bar grips or tape, switching to padded cycling gloves (Specialized Body Geometry Gloves has padding to specifically reduce ulnar nerve compression) adjusting the front suspension to a slightly softer setting to reduce high frequency low impact bumps and vibration, adjusting the handle bars to a slightly higher and more rearward position to reduce the amount of weight placed on the heal of the hand. Getting handle bars with a more rearward sweap can change the angle of the hands to a more anatomically correct postition. Most standard flat bars have only 3 - 5 degrees of back sweep. You may benefit from a set that gives you 7-11 degrees of back sweep. Most riser bars have more back sweep than standard flat bars (7-15 degree range) and you may want to consider this. If you are looking to keep your weight on your bike down you will actually get a stronger and lighter set up by using a shorter taller stem with a flat bar with more back sweep. Using a set of bar ends can help as well, as it gives you alternative hand positions you can utilize to alleviate pressure to the heal of the hand.

I hope these tricks help alleviate your symptoms.

Thanks,
_________________
Paul K. Nolan, MD 
AKA: The Bike Doc


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## chuckc1971 (Jul 31, 2002)

Few thoughts:

1. If we 'only' looked toward elite racers for guidance on bike part selection, there would be no 29ers, no disc brakes, no dedicated high end singlespeeds and certainly no alt-bars. Non-conformist types have certainly done their fair share to push the envelope here. Most of them are not pro racers. Some don't even race. A lot has then "trickled up" to the elite level.

2. The perceived comfort reported by many with using bars of increased sweep likely has nothing to do with changes in ulnar nerve pressure, but the fact that the forearm and shoulder are in a "looser" position. My non-Internet persona is a Physical Therapist. When the shoulder is internally rotated and the forearm is pronated (and the wrist is positioned toward the thumb side or radial deviation) as when one is riding with a straighter bar, you essentially "stiffen" up your upper body causing additional joint reaction forces. In simple terms, your upper body is less compliant. That is a good reason why those who ride rigid forks seem to prefer these bars. Many people such as myself find the increased sweep very comfortable on all bikes. 

3. I've thought a lot about increased ulnar nerve pressure with the increased sweep since first reading this post. It's certainly true that a bar with increased sweep will tend to lie closer to the meaty portion of your palm (hypothenar eminence) vs. the 'hook' of your fingers, the difference is only a couple of degrees as I have walked around and tested a few different bars. I think one of the things that could both make an alt-bar uncomfortable for some and/or cause numbness via irritation of the ulnar nerve for others is the individual rider's wrist ROM or lack thereof. Specifically, the lack of motion to bring the pinky side of your hand to your forearm (ulnar deviation) is what I am referring to. I would suggest if this is the case, then you have two choices, find a bar with less (but still some) sweep or go to a mtb drop bar. 

As stated before, every individual is different. After using an ass-o-meter, I found why most WTB saddles fit me better than Selle. My sit bones prefer ~140mm width saddles. Same things with alt-bars of which there are many. I like my Jones bar, but I really love my Carnegies and the Flowing before them. Since I am more comfortable and rely less on my suspension fork, I've found my endurance for long rides on a rigid bike have gone up quite a bit. I attribute this to being more relaxed with these bars. YMMV.


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## Grande (Feb 19, 2004)

I think this is the most informative posts. The thread is getting a little out hand especially when it comes to sweep of bar and symptoms of numbness and tingling of the hands. I am hand therapist and treat only injuries of the arms. The idea that paresthesias will resolve if you change the sweep isnt the whole story and one would be barking up the wrong tree. And if one person changed his sweep and it produced good results/less symptoms-great but it really doesnt mean it will do the same for the next guy. So lets be careful not to hand out that type of advice.

The issue to me in general, is likely caused to be more by*duration* in a position that gives symptoms whatever that position is. Its also more the weight you are putting on you hands. So it your hand are not resting easy on the bars that may be the issue too. Also like Dr. Nolan notes it is the ring and small fingers that are affected in compression of the Ulnar Nerve at the wrist (guyon's). When its the thumb, index, middle and half of the ring finger that are affected that points us to the median nerve. Also the ulnar nerve can be entrapped or compressed at the elbow (at the "funny bone") and that will produce similar symptoms to compression of the ulnar nerve at the wrist. Also pain is not the same and what is called _paresthesias_ or sensations of numbess, tingling, pins and needles sensations. that is something else


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Grande said:


> I think this is the most informative posts. The thread is getting a little out hand especially when it comes to sweep of bar and symptoms of numbness and tingling of the hands. I am hand therapist and treat only injuries of the arms. The idea that paresthesias will resolve if you change the sweep isnt the whole story and one would be barking up the wrong tree. And if one person changed his sweep and it produced good results/less symptoms-great but it really doesnt mean it will do the same for the next guy. So lets be careful not to hand out that type of advice.
> 
> The issue to me in general, is likely caused to be more by*duration* in a position that gives symptoms whatever that position is. Its also more the weight you are putting on you hands. So it your hand are not resting easy on the bars that may be the issue too. Also like Dr. Nolan notes it is the ring and small fingers that are affected in compression of the Ulnar Nerve at the wrist (guyon's). When its the thumb, index, middle and half of the ring finger that are affected that points us to the median nerve. Also the ulnar nerve can be entrapped or compressed at the elbow (at the "funny bone") and that will produce similar symptoms to compression of the ulnar nerve at the wrist. Also pain is not the same and what is called _paresthesias_ or sensations of numbess, tingling, pins and needles sensations. that is something else


We can debate each nuance until the cows come home and we have.  Sweep whether you agree or not has a huge influence on egonomics which beget predisposition for injury or not. Of course there are many contributing factors. Weight on the hands is big but so is weight distribution on the palms as well as wrist position relative to body and handlebar. The converse of ulnar nerve impingement has also been addressed by a gent in this thread. This gent reported sore thumbs which is a function of not enough sweep relative body position on the bike. Its a balance of load distribution on the palm that is a key to riding injury free.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Grande said:


> The issue to me in general, is likely caused to be more by*duration* in a position that gives symptoms whatever that position is. Its also more the weight you are putting on you hands. So it your hand are not resting easy on the bars that may be the issue too. Also like Dr. Nolan notes it is the ring and small fingers that are affected in compression of the Ulnar Nerve at the wrist (guyon's).


Based on this I would say my issues have always been too much weight on my hands, and riding rigid (which I won't stop). I would also say that I don't ride long enough to have pain, I have numbness and tingling in my outer hand and pinky area

A continued thank you to everyone for your comments.


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## dirtrider7 (Oct 24, 2009)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Based on this I would say my issues have always been too much weight on my hands, and riding rigid (which I won't stop). I would also say that I don't ride long enough to have pain, I have numbness and tingling in my outer hand and pinky area
> 
> A continued thank you to everyone for your comments.


A friendly tip. Try Ergon grips. I can't think of another single better if not transformative bicycle part I have tried. The beauty of this very throughtful design is it takes bar sweep more out of the equation for palm pressure by distributing weight over a broader area at the base of the hand. In my experience Ergon grips >> Bar Sweep when it comes to hand comfort.


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## Grande (Feb 19, 2004)

Right, if it the area in yellow, that points to the ulnar nerve. Purple area is median nerve and pink is radial nerve-unlikely in this case. Another question you ask is -does this affect both hands? If so and it only affects you when riding then its likely riding and maybe the ergonomics of you bar/grips etc. And so maybe you can improve on that. If its just one hand maybe you have some issue with your wrist that riding brings out. For example, cysts are known to occur at that area. Not saying thats what you have but if it is just one hand that is the type of thing you need to rule out.

There is a method to help you figure out what the issue is.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

dirtrider7 said:


> A friendly tip. Try Ergon grips. I can't think of another single better if not transformative bicycle part I have tried. The beauty of this very throughtful design is it takes bar sweep more out of the equation for palm pressure by distributing weight over a broader area at the base of the hand. In my experience Ergon grips >> Bar Sweep when it comes to hand comfort.


I'm already using them. 

I have more trouble with my hands when sitting and climbing than I do descending.


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## Lord Humongous (Jan 12, 2004)

chuckc1971 said:


> 1. If we 'only' looked toward elite racers for guidance on bike part selection, there would be no 29ers, no disc brakes, no dedicated high end singlespeeds and certainly no alt-bars. Non-conformist types have certainly done their fair share to push the envelope here. Most of them are not pro racers. Some don't even race. A lot has then "trickled up" to the elite level.


Oh wow, that makes me feel better. I was on the verge of saying virtually the same thing, but now I don't have to. XC racers have proven themselves the conservative force in mountain biking for two decades. Oops, it slipped out afterall.

Wish I were riding, I wasn't trying to say that your bike setup should include straight bars, I was merely trying to point out how easy it is to try different setups. It certainly appears that you have run a large collection of different bars and stems. I was also hoping to make it clear that for us singlespeeders, the standing while climbing position acts as a constraint on setup, especially with conventional handlebars. If you are not hitting your knees on your bars, you clearly run a longer cockpit compared to your leg length than I do, but that is not to say there is anything wrong with that setup.

As for the altbars vs conventional bars within the specific context of riding a rigid singlespeed, I prefer the alt bars for three reasons:
1: I move the bike a lot more when I ride rigid, (some people actually call me smooth, but I have only ever had such complements when on a hard fork.) For my specific setup I find lifting the front wheel, lunging, lifting the rear wheel and out of the saddle climbing easier with my elbows close to my body. I am also considerably stronger in the gym doing rowing exercises with my elbows at my sides so this is no surprise to me.
2: Having the bar run more front to back and less side to side allows me to capitalize on my finger strength, which is excellent, and minimize the need to grab the bar with my thumbs which have less than stellar performance. I find I have to grip the bar with my thumb for technical moves when on a standard bar, whereas altbars allow me to just rest my thumb on the inside of the bar. This is particularly noticeable anytime I am rocking the bike front to back or back to front, such as when riding over logs and log piles.
3:  My elbows can depend below my shoulders, much like when standing or walking, which uses very little msucle activation as opposed to needing to be held out to the side by my trapezius and posterior deltoids. For me conserving energy on the singlespeed is essential, especially any muscles that will get used for shock absorbtion and body language.

Anyways, I think you get the idea and I am sure that your original question was which model of bar to get. Get the flat bar and adjust height with stems, that should end up lightest and strongest, based on my limited understanding of metal fabrication. The tilt is something you will need to sort out with some time on the bar, try flat and see if anything feels funny. My suggestion is if the outside of your palm hurst rotate down a bit, that's how I set up all of my bars.


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

dirtrider7 said:


> Actually the opposite is true. You need more shock absorption in your arms riding rigid which is faciliated by elbow more bent and away from your body that a conventional *low backsweep handlebar promotes*. If you contrast the position on his road bike with that of mtb the contrast can be easily explained. Because you don't ride as stretched out off road as you do on road, your arms need to be bent to facilitate shock absorption. Not so on road. Road bikes are ridden at higher speed where aerodynamics are more important. Aerodynamics are improved with a more stretched out straigher armed style of riding. A straighter armed position promotes a more natural shake hands hood and hook position with more aero arms closer to the body.


As GT mentions above, I too disagree with the assertion that an 'elbows out' is ideal for rigid. The higher sweep allows *me* to ride loose on the rigid. On my full suspension, I let the suspension absorb the shock  . FWIW - I ran an 11 degree Salsa flat bar on that rig. Elbows out on that rig so I could work the trail and move the bike. Different philosophy.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

dirtrider7 said:


> We can debate each nuance until the cows come home and we have.  Sweep whether you agree or not has a huge influence on egonomics which beget predisposition for injury or not. Of course there are many contributing factors. Weight on the hands is big but so is weight distribution on the palms as well as wrist position relative to body and handlebar. The converse of ulnar nerve impingement has also been addressed by a gent in this thread. This gent reported sore thumbs which is a function of not enough sweep relative body position on the bike. Its a balance of load distribution on the palm that is a key to riding injury free.


Are you seriously trying to speak with as much authority on the subject as a person who's actual job is a therapist for the arms and hands?

You make some sense dude, but don't get too big for your britches. Unless you have some real-world experience that you're not letting on about that you'd like to share.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Well this is kind of a follow up. I will most likely be being some carbon Carnegie's when they come out. 

In the mean time, after reading through a lot of the discussion (and not discussion  ), I decided I needed to try my bars rotated down more. I mentioned before that on my rigid SS I'm currently using a Titec ti flat tracker bar with small GP1 Ergon grips. I saw the illustration posted by Grande and thought I should make a change. I rotated my bars way down, re adjusted the grips, and rode like that. I ended up feeling like I had gone too far with the bar change, but thought it was good to know. 

So before today's ride a rotated them up a little more (to looking just slightly below level). I rode without much hand numbness at all today. While I only rode 13 miles and only 2000' of climbing, I felt the change was a very good thing. My hands felt better while climbing, sitting, and didn't feel much different descending. So this is how it will stay for now. 

Thanks to everyone. I find all comments useful.


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

any updates on the carbon version?


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

I flipped my bars for a negative rise. I found this very comfortable especially on the downhills I can really tuck in if needed to get going. They also seem to be wider this way vs + rise way, which helped give more leverage on the uphills.

This is a On One Mary bar but I think a Ragley would give the same effect. I do want a set but I would rather have a carbon set vs aluminum.


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## hulio (Mar 6, 2006)

Lance rides alt bars.


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## prphoto (Mar 17, 2006)

dirtrider7 said:


> A friendly tip. Try Ergon grips. I can't think of another single better if not transformative bicycle part I have tried. The beauty of this very throughtful design is it takes bar sweep more out of the equation for palm pressure by distributing weight over a broader area at the base of the hand. In my experience Ergon grips >> Bar Sweep when it comes to hand comfort.


Ted you have to be laughing now. Bar sweep and ergon grips, where have I heard that before?


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Installed mine today. Picts here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7124470&postcount=9


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

How much do these shorten the 'effective' reach compared to a 10 or 11 degree bar?


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

PuddleDuck said:


> How much do these shorten the 'effective' reach compared to a 10 or 11 degree bar?


Hard to say - actually they may infact "increase" the "effective" reach due to the forward wiggle.


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## foxtrot (Aug 20, 2008)

So I shouldn't worry about adding a longer stem?


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## 29ftw (Apr 28, 2010)

foxtrot said:


> So I shouldn't worry about adding a longer stem?


I kept the same stem and really didn't notice any material difference in reach..they could be marginally closer but too hard to tell. I don't think I can ever go back to standard bars after 4mos on the Ragley's.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I agree that my hands visually look closer, but it doesn't feel any different. So no, I wouldn't really worry about changing stems unless after riding them a lot you feel the need. I won't, and I like them.

My Carbon ones weigh 190gms, nice and light. First ride done, and I like it.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

PuddleDuck said:


> How much do these shorten the 'effective' reach compared to a 10 or 11 degree bar?


i was using a 9deg sweep bar before and i had to move my seat back ~15mm to get the reach right with the same stem. assuming a 680mm bar width, each additional degree of sweep would be ~6mm change in reach.


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## kev0153 (Sep 2, 2004)

Just installed a set and did 10 miles yesterday on my rigid bike. Wow, love these things. I went with the positive rise alloy version as Chain Reaction Cycles was having a good sale on them. I might have to spring for the carbon version if/when I get some spare cash. 

I couldn't believe how much more comfortable they made extended climbs.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Digging up an old thread to ask what angle relative to the ground people are running their Carnegies at?

I got mine in december, and I'd had it basically level since then. But in the last few days I've had a mysterious reappearance of hand/wrist pain, so I've been tweaking the cockpit stepup.

Part of that was angling the bar down so it's sort of inline with the toptube, and it feels...good? I think? (but I'm also wearing giant winter gloves, so the whole riding experience is a bit skewed right now)

From the pics in this thread some look level and some look angled. There was even a post about aiming them at the drops, which would be a really significant angle? So I'm just wondering how other people have them set up now that they're used to them, or even if there is a way that it's "supposed" to be angled?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

newfangled said:


> Digging up an old thread to ask what angle relative to the ground people are running their Carnegies at?
> 
> I got mine in december, and I'd had it basically level since then. But in the last few days I've had a mysterious reappearance of hand/wrist pain, so I've been tweaking the cockpit stepup.
> 
> ...


Angle is to suit your preference .


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## alexkraemer (Jul 30, 2007)

newfangled said:


> Digging up an old thread to ask what angle relative to the ground people are running their Carnegies at?
> 
> I got mine in december, and I'd had it basically level since then. But in the last few days I've had a mysterious reappearance of hand/wrist pain, so I've been tweaking the cockpit stepup.
> 
> ...


I have mine angled down slightly (probably roughly in line with the toptube) and I've had no issues with them, both with and without big winter gloves


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## jomissa (Apr 18, 2004)

i just switched and really like them. i do like them.

i had the same general questions about adjustment time. OBVIOUSLY, this is changing the way we are positioned on the bars, and i did feel some outer wrist twinges a bit... im adjusting the ANGLE of the bars every ride a bit till i think i have it and ill stay there for a a while until i thnk different.

my next issue is Flat vs. riser. i ordered flat and it made me move my stem up etc. i reordered a riser and will put on today.

CANT WAIT to see the difference.

Josh


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I guess what I was wondering, is if you angle them way down - like aiming at the rear dropouts - are you almost getting into the hand positioning of a dirtdrop bar? Is that what the bar is for?

Are you supposed to ride it from behind, instead of on top? (and yeah, I know how that sounds  )


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

newfangled said:


> I guess what I was wondering, is if you angle them way down - like aiming at the rear dropouts - are you almost getting into the hand positioning of a dirtdrop bar? Is that what the bar is for?
> 
> Are you supposed to ride it from behind, instead of on top? (and yeah, I know how that sounds  )


There is no one proper position , what works for one person may not work for anyone else . Find the sweet spot for your preference .


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## jomissa (Apr 18, 2004)

would this mess with the bar. eg will that add stress to the bar in ways it was not intended to handle....


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

jomissa said:


> would this mess with the bar. eg will that add stress to the bar in ways it was not intended to handle....


My contributor to Twenty Nine Inches in Germany runs his upside down and pointed at the drops. As has been said, it is all just personal preference and should not affect the way the bars perform if you angle them downward.


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## Dscarbs (Feb 1, 2004)

loving this thread.. Anyone here still riding the Carnegies? I am looking at putting them on my full rigid 29er just for somthing different..Great posts and pics!


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## ThreeD (Feb 7, 2008)

I've got them on my fully rigid SS. I love them. I would always have my right hand go numb with conventional riser bars. Not anymore with the Carnegies. Great handlebar.


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

Dscarbs said:


> loving this thread.. Anyone here still riding the Carnegies? I am looking at putting them on my full rigid 29er just for somthing different..Great posts and pics!


Yep, love them!


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## chuckc1971 (Jul 31, 2002)

I have a set of Alu Carnegie's on my FS bike and they have been perfect in all ways.

I do have a set of carbon ones on my rigid SS. I've been chasing down a few creaks on the bike and have all resolved except some obviously coming from the handlebar area. While talking with a friend of mine just yesterday who also has the carbon version, we both realized we had the same creak. I'm going to try to sand that slick topcoat at the stem and where my Ergon locking grips clamp on. I hope that helps. Anyone else have this issue?


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

I've a alu rise version - which I love. 

I purchased a alu flat bar for another bike...and i'm not happy with it. The area for mounting grips + brake + shifters is shorter....so I can't position the brakes & shifters where I want them. They also seem to have less sweep.


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## foxtrot (Aug 20, 2008)

chuckc1971 said:


> I have a set of Alu Carnegie's on my FS bike and they have been perfect in all ways.
> 
> I do have a set of carbon ones on my rigid SS. I've been chasing down a few creaks on the bike and have all resolved except some obviously coming from the handlebar area. While talking with a friend of mine just yesterday who also has the carbon version, we both realized we had the same creak. I'm going to try to sand that slick topcoat at the stem and where my Ergon locking grips clamp on. I hope that helps. Anyone else have this issue?


Have not noticed a creak with my carbon carnegies. I absolutely love my bars, and can't ever imagine getting a different pair of bars.


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## esku (Jul 26, 2005)

nice.


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## 29Again (Mar 27, 2005)

I had the black carbon bar on order at ChainReaction. Unfortunately, the stock indicator was not up to date at the time I ordered them. Seems like they won't be back in stock until December. Hotlines (suggested by Ragley) is also out until Dec. 

Is there another place that has the black in stock?

For those that went with the unpainted version, how did they turn out? Don't think I can pull off white, too much black on my bike


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## Clink (Oct 29, 2006)

Anyone run the carbons upside down? Like the sweep and want comfort but don't need the rise...


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## blasdelf (Feb 26, 2011)

There's a "negative rise" version for sale here: Ragley Carnegie Alloy Riser Bar | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

Does it have a different bend than the normal one, or are the logos just flipped? :skep:


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## r1Gel (Jan 14, 2004)

blasdelf said:


> There's a "negative rise" version for sale here: Ragley Carnegie Alloy Riser Bar | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com
> 
> Does it have a different bend than the normal one, or are the logos just flipped? :skep:


It's the same shape/dimensions as the 1-inch rise version. Yes, the logos are just flipped. I've always wondered why they ever bothered. Kinda silly if you ask me. And they're priced differently! I guess those wanting a low front end (e.g., 29ers) have to pay that slight premium.
They used to just make the flat and with 1-inch rise


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## Clink (Oct 29, 2006)

Anyone tried flipping the carbon version? Think it has more rise (or drop!) than the alu?


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## h2otaco (Aug 5, 2010)

I just don't get this trendy new bar thing. How do bkes with crazy swept bars like this handle... reminds me of a cruiser bike.


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## Captain_America1976 (Mar 15, 2005)

h2otaco said:


> I just don't get this trendy new bar thing. How do bkes with crazy swept bars like this handle... reminds me of a cruiser bike.


I wouldn't say it's new or trendy. People have been riding alt bars for years. I got my first set in 2007. I am sure they were around before then. I finally settled on a wider ti version. I love the way the bike handles with them. My wrists are comfortable, and my elbows tucked in.


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## jomissa (Apr 18, 2004)

i had the rag car bar but did not like it for our more technical riding here in pa. i found on flats- fine, on twisty singletrack- fine. on most terrain- fine. what i did not like was descending on steep drops. felt like i had lost leverage and my shoulders/arms were pulled to far in. stabilization felt funny to me. i sold them both a few weeks ago through this forum in fact. in the end- i preferred my 1 inch carbon risers just fine. but i do have to say- they were not bad. they just did not fit my comfort....


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## WtPooh (Jan 25, 2011)

Just got mine installed to my rigid Singular Swift. Flat alu version here. Amazing difference compared to my old bar (7 degrees backsweep). Steering changed also quite a bit. Much quicker indeed. I´ll give it some time, and decide then if i should lengthen my stem a bit.


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## WtPooh (Jan 25, 2011)

And a photo also:


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

More power to you folks that can ride that much rearward sweep...it would kill my wrists and elbows.


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

mopartodd said:


> More power to you folks that can ride that much rearward sweep...it would kill my wrists and elbows.


Yet it closely follows the natural positioning of your hands and wrist while they hang at your side.


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

Anyone have any clue where to get a set of carbon carnegies?


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

I just recently got carbon carnegie at chainreaction.com but after checking now - - only see aluminum...


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

They look exactly like nashbar.com 's comfort bar. Or close enough for me. I picked up the first one for $19.99 and the second for $24.99. Haven't used them yet though. If they feel good, I might go back for Smo'.


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## chuckc1971 (Jul 31, 2002)

I bought one from chain reaction as well. When I google the bar by name, the chain reaction site come up.

Ragley Carnegie Carbon Riser Bar | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

Under the description, it says: "Item discontinued."

I can't find anywhere else that has one.


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## rob1035 (Apr 20, 2007)

Not a lot (or any?) similar bars out there in carbon, sucks.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

On a related note, the white colored Wiser Carbon bar is also mysteriously gone from CRC..

Guess I'll have to look for a nice way to paint a regular carbon bar white. Was about to buy some white Carnegies.


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## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

Trying to track one of these bars down for a build. If anyone has an extra laying around in any flavor PM me.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

Just installed these on my SS, replacing a mid-rise Easton Monkey Bar (30 mm rise, 9 deg backsweep, 5 deg upsweep). Kept the same stem (90 mm 10 deg) and 30 mm of spacers. Feel like I have more weight on my hands, and my initial impression is that I don't like them, but the comfort in out-of-saddle climbs is undeniable.

Question: Would it be ridiculous to go to a 17 deg stem? I feel like I want my hands higher, even though I've already got 30 mm of spacers.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

Maybe post a side profile picture so we can get get an idea of the saddle to bar relationship you have got.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

Here is my Salsa El Mari SS setup with the Carnegies, with my Niner MCR behind it with a riser bar at a nearly perfect comfortable position.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

In relation to the pictures, it just seems like you need to rotate the bars up and put some Ergon grips on it.


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## kyttyra (Mar 8, 2012)

PuddleDuck said:


> I've a alu rise version - which I love.
> 
> I purchased a alu flat bar for another bike...and i'm not happy with it. The area for mounting grips + brake + shifters is shorter....so I can't position the brakes & shifters where I want them. They also seem to have less sweep.


Speaking of which: I'm considering of buying alu risers, but I'm not sure whether they have enough mounting area - I need at least 19 cm/≈7 1/2 inches to get the brake levers to proper position.

If someone knows or can measure how long the alu Carnegies' mounting area is, I would be thankful of the information.


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## r1Gel (Jan 14, 2004)

kyttyra said:


> Speaking of which: I'm considering of buying alu risers, but I'm not sure whether they have enough mounting area - I need at least 19 cm/≈7 1/2 inches to get the brake levers to proper position.
> 
> If someone knows or can measure how long the alu Carnegies' mounting area is, I would be thankful of the information.


190mm from the end to just before it bends


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## kyttyra (Mar 8, 2012)

r1Gel said:


> 190mm from the end to just before it bends


Nice, thanks


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## slower_than_u (Sep 28, 2008)

I crashed and broke my Carnegie Carbon this past weekend. When I inquired about a crash replacement, word from the distributor was that the carbon version had been discontinued and they could only offer the aluminum version. I really liked the carbon bar on my rigid SS, anybody know of something similar from a different manufacturer?


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

slower_than_u said:


> I crashed and broke my Carnegie Carbon this past weekend. When I inquired about a crash replacement, word from the distributor was that the carbon version had been discontinued and they could only offer the aluminum version. I really liked the carbon bar on my rigid SS, anybody know of something similar from a different manufacturer?


Not exactly the same...but answer 20/20


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## sbruton7 (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm trying to purchase a Carnegie riser bar (aluminum), but I can't find any retailers who carry it. Chain Reaction Cycles has been out of stock for months and now lists the bar as discontinued. Anyone have one in new or great used condition that they would be willing to sell?


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## kev0153 (Sep 2, 2004)

sbruton7 said:


> I'm trying to purchase a Carnegie riser bar (aluminum), but I can't find any retailers who carry it. Chain Reaction Cycles has been out of stock for months and now lists the bar as discontinued. Anyone have one in new or great used condition that they would be willing to sell?


I think I have one. Email me [email protected]

I'll look in my garage.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

kev0153 said:


> I think I have one. Email me [email protected]
> 
> I'll look in my garage.


I've got one too. PM me if interested. Barely used (like three rides or so).


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

Finally got around to listing a set of Carnegie bars on Ebay (search for 'em). Alloy with 25.4 mm rise/drop. Thought there might be some interest, given that they're now discontinued. Very little use - didn't work out for me.


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## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

BmoreKen said:


> Finally got around to listing a set of Carnegie bars on Ebay (search for 'em). Alloy with 25.4 mm rise/drop. Thought there might be some interest, given that they're now discontinued. Very little use - didn't work out for me.


Looks like another set in white carbon/31.8 just showed up on fleabay if anyone is still looking.


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

I sure would like some of the flat 31.8mm bars


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