# 29er DH bikes



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Let's see 'em!

I just got back from NM and spent time on the South Boundary and loved it. Then we did lifts at AF and I managed to ride everything on the 29er Stumpy FS. I rented a "proper bike" and tried that for a couple of runs and went right back to the Stumpy because I'm just not a 26" guy anymore.

Walt, I know you build one around the White Bros fork. Do you just stick spacers in there to keep the tire from hitting the crown?

I put more air in the DUC32 to stand it up and slack the HT angle out, jammed the seat down low and the bike worked ok. It was clearly stiffer than the stuff other folks were riding, but that was ok for me. I had a great time. I could see building a DH rig but it would certainly have to be around a 29er tire, at least in the front.

So what have you guys done/experimented with?

BTW, sorry that the WWTP hasn't been updated in week or two, I've been on vacation. I'm planning to hit it again this weekend.

Stumpy in Palo Duro Canyon, TX:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

A Duc32 isn't even up to cross country duty, let alone downhill. Try a real fork and see the difference.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Call me*

I've posted about this topic before on the 29er board and my blog, but without getting into too much detail:
-Fit is hard unless you're big
-Fork selection sucks (The WB actually just barely has clearance with the crown raised to max). I've heard there's a 6" WB single crown now, that might be pretty cool, but their stuff is pretty mediocre when compared to real high-end DH stuff.
-Tire selection is nonexistent. I glue old innertubes inside Nevegals to make a ghetto 2-ply tire. Those work ok. I've heard WTB is going to do a knobby 2.5, that would be cool.
-Rim selection sucks.

Bottom line, it's something only a weirdo (ie, me) would really pursue. I think 5" or so is about the most travel you'll see on a production 29er frame, probably for all eternity.

-Walt



jay_ntwr said:


> Let's see 'em!
> 
> I just got back from NM and spent time on the South Boundary and loved it. Then we did lifts at AF and I managed to ride everything on the 29er Stumpy FS. I rented a "proper bike" and tried that for a couple of runs and went right back to the Stumpy because I'm just not a 26" guy anymore.
> 
> ...


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> A Duc32 isn't even up to cross country duty, let alone downhill. Try a real fork and see the difference.


I know you're not a fan of the DUC32 (or 29ers). I'm not a fan of short head tubes and tall stems.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on some topics I suppose (and I have been through a few Fox forks). Like I said though, I know the DUC isn't a DH fork but I was still able to hold my own on my XC rig just fine. It just left me wanting more.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Walt, will do when the time gets more realistic. I have a SS frame to build still ;:

I suppose that I'm a weirdo and have to have a 29er DH bike at some point though. BTW, I used the WTB Stout 2.3s w/ wire bead and Cafe Latex and had no issues. I still feel bad for the bike though. It really had to step up to the plate and do something it wasn't designed to do.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Steve Peat is a pretty tall guy. He seems to do well. DH bikes are pretty long as well.

Have you tried an honest DH bike? A real one? 40+ pounds.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> Have you tried an honest DH bike? A real one? 40+ pounds.


Rented a Commencal and did two runs on it. I hated it. It's a tire thing really. If I could just slam down the hills at full speed, it'd probably work ok. But I was faster on my XC rig and more confident and even more comfortable. Angel Fire is really rocky though, maybe that has something to do with it.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

It's tough to say. Their are a lot of times that a good LT FS trail bike is going to be faster than a DH bike. BUT when the $hit gets nuts, the DH bike will leave others in the dust. It would be good to ask around about where to properly test one out in your neck of the woods.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pvd said:


> Have you tried an honest DH bike? A real one? 40+ pounds.


Um yep......










Friend has one of these

Other than being able to ride in wonderful scenery off limits to motorcycles (not that I would because it completely scars the desert/terrain DH is just about the lamest thing cycling ever came up with.......If it has more than 6 inch of travel it should have a motor. Sorry, just had to vent.
:thumbsup:


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> Let's see 'em!
> 
> I just got back from NM and spent time on the South Boundary and loved it. Then we did lifts at AF and I managed to ride everything on the 29er Stumpy FS. I rented a "proper bike" and tried that for a couple of runs and went right back to the Stumpy because I'm just not a 26" guy anymore.
> 
> ...


I'm confused - you asked to see 29'er DH bikes and then posted some POS flimsy XC bike...?

Go talk to Alex Morgan.


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## NoahColorado (Aug 3, 2004)




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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

NoahColorado said:


>


Too bad about that fork.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

iheartbicycles said:


> I'm confused


Clearly.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

When anyone says "You can't downhill on that!" I have two words for them.

Nicolas

and

Vouilloz.










He pwned all you wankers on a 30lb 6" travel bike.

Regardless, the DUC does SUC.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

dbohemian said:


> DH is just about the lamest thing cycling ever came up with..


Give it a try. I think that it's great. You can learn a lot about how to ride a bicycle by riding DH. Major skill builder.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

NoahColorado said:


>


yeah, that's Enel's bike...i would love to give it a try myself (well, thats his frame anyway, his setup is different than the show bike pictured)

the other long"er" travel 29er, though also by no means a real DH bike, is the WFO. Here its pictured with Dorado fork which unless you have VERY fat pockets, is not recommended


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Heh.*

Nice, erm, non-tilted photo there. I like the magic rocks glued to the hill.

Of course, Nico is about the biggest stud on earth, yes. But "pwned"? What is this, a Halo 2 chat room?

In all seriousness, if you go check out the bikes that pros race on, they often don't use 8+" travel rigs. Those guys are good enough to jump/manual/pump all the stuff the rest of us wankers have to squish through with as much travel as we can get. And they can move the bike around to do those things more easily with less travel and weight.

I think that for casual DH riding, 5 or 6" travel is more than enough, regardless of wheel size. Geometry trumps travel when it comes to downhill bikes.

-Walt



Thylacine said:


> When anyone says "You can't downhill on that!" I have two words for them.
> 
> Nicolas
> 
> ...


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Actually, most downhill bikes have settled in at the 8" to 8.5" range. For riding at Northstar in Tahoe, I wouldn't be happy with less. I do agree that geometry is a huge factor though.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Yes, but...*

That's because they're mostly built for overweight idiots to be able to sit on the saddle and roll things at will. I bet at least 50% of the people I see riding DH here in CO can't get the wheels off the ground without an assist of some kind from the terrain - run them at a log without a kicker in front of it, and they'll be OTB.

You can learn to handle a longer travel bike, yes. But a lot of people will never get to that point, and should be riding shorter travel setups that they can actually handle, rather than just kind of being along for the ride.

Then again, maybe that's what people enjoy.

Note that I'm not saying that *you* can't ride your bike or don't need the travel, Pete. I'm pretty sure you'd kick my butt every way from Sunday in a DH race.

-Walt



pvd said:


> Actually, most downhill bikes have settled in at the 8" to 8.5" range. For riding at Northstar in Tahoe, I wouldn't be happy with less. I do agree that geometry is a huge factor though.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

Looking around at all the 5-6" bike theses days, it is pretty interesting to see how much geometry and construction have to do wit the intended purpose of the bike, travel seems to be almost secondary. 

I don't pay much attention to DH racing, but from what I've seen having at least 2 bikes to choose from seems to be the best set up, a light DH bike (around 6") for tighter stuff, and a heavy DH bike(8"+) for faster more wide open stuff. Horses for courses and all that.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

pvd said:


> Actually, most downhill bikes have settled in at the 8" to 8.5" range. For riding at Northstar in Tahoe, I wouldn't be happy with less. I do agree that geometry is a huge factor though.


I think what what Walt is trying to get across is for an old guy like me, 5-6" is going to be just fine for DH. I'm not hardcore to the max anymore--too old for that. For the hardcore to the max kids, they'll use that 8"+. And, I may get to do this once or twice per year, so I'm certainly not going to become a great DHer with a handful of days per year in my mid 30s.

As for the DUC32, I thought I should disclose something that I didn't earlier that does support your point, Peter. Folks often ask me what I think of the fork and I always say the same thing, "For this bike, I wouldn't want anything else. It's the most amazing fork I've ever ridden. But I absolutely can't recommend it to anyone else because it's so difficult to dial in and get right."

So I get when folks say the DUC32 is a terrible fork. It's most likely that they didn't rip into it three times to get it set up properly, order springs and shims from Maverick, try different oil wts, and have endless email chains with Ethan. But if you do all of those things, it's an amazing fork. Still, it's not a fast fork in terms of XC racing and it's no downhill fork. It's for Epic XC IMHO. It kicks arse in that arena and I wouldn't have anything else (on this particular bike). So it's certainly a niche fork. For an XC race machine, I'd go Fox, no question.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> I think what what Walt is trying to get across is for an old guy like me, 5-6" is going to be just fine for DH. I'm not hardcore to the max anymore--too old for that. For the hardcore to the max kids, they'll use that 8"+. And, I may get to do this once or twice per year, so I'm certainly not going to become a great DHer with a handful of days per year in my mid 30s.
> 
> As for the DUC32, I thought I should disclose something that I didn't earlier that does support your point, Peter. Folks often ask me what I think of the fork and I always say the same thing, "For this bike, I wouldn't want anything else. It's the most amazing fork I've ever ridden. But I absolutely can't recommend it to anyone else because it's so difficult to dial in and get right."
> 
> So I get when folks say the DUC32 is a terrible fork. It's most likely that they didn't rip into it three times to get it set up properly, order springs and shims from Maverick, try different oil wts, and have endless email chains with Ethan. But if you do all of those things, it's an amazing fork. Still, it's not a fast fork in terms of XC racing and it's no downhill fork. It's for Epic XC IMHO. It kicks arse in that arena and I wouldn't have anything else (on this particular bike). So it's certainly a niche fork. For an XC race machine, I'd go Fox, no question.


I think it's a matter of nomenclature and perception.

When you use nomenclature such as the title of this thread "DH Bike" it creates the perception that you really mean to discuss DH bikes. Instead what we have in this thread is a bunch of people defending the idea that a 5-6" travel bike is robust enough for rough trails.

Sure - 5-6" travel is fun - and I've run 5 and 6" travel bikes at Northstar and have cleaned almost every trail there on them. But when it comes down to it, if you want to go fast and be competetive, you can't ride true DH trails (Karpiel, Boondocks for example) on a trail bike and expect to do well.

Change the title of the thread to "long travel 29'ers" and be done with it.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

iheartbicycles said:


> I think it's a matter of nomenclature and perception.
> 
> When you use nomenclature such as the title of this thread "DH Bike" it creates the perception that you really mean to discuss DH bikes. Instead what we have in this thread is a bunch of people defending the idea that a 5-6" travel bike is robust enough for rough trails.
> 
> ...


It's still all about the rider.

I like to give this example: my son ran a 2.32 at the Telluride DH on a hardtail with a Pike fork. That time put him 2nd in his own class, about mid pack in the 40 deep Semi-Pro field, on or near the podium in the other classes, on a rough, jumpy, course. On a hardtail. Surrounded by a sea of true DH bikes.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

DWF said:


> It's still all about the rider.
> 
> I like to give this example: my son ran a 2.32 at the Telluride DH on a hardtail with a Pike fork. That time put him 2nd in his own class, about mid pack in the 40 deep Semi-Pro field, on or near the podium in the other classes, on a rough, jumpy, course. On a hardtail. Surrounded by a sea of true DH bikes.


So 40 semi pro riders were faster than him - and they were all running DH bikes - and you're saying that's just a coincedence?

I do admit that you and your kid are awesome riders - but realistically all competetive DH'ers ride DH bikes.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Er, no.*

We're not talking about trail bikes. There is a distinct difference between a 5-6" travel trail bike and a 5-6" travel DH bike - head angle/trail/steering geometry, toptube length, spring rates, stem/bar/saddle setup, tires, crank/drivetrain setup, etc, etc. Both the contact points for the rider and the basic geometry are totally different.

The reason nobody rides shorter travel DH bikes (though you'll find them at DH races among the pros all the time) is that they're not what's available on the market. It makes me laugh when I see some 5'2" kid on a V10 struggling to keep up with his friends on shorter travel bikes or hardtails - and I see that kind of thing all the time.

For the last time - travel doesn't define a downhill bike. It's just part of the equation, and everyone's needs are different, though you'd never know it from what's on the market.

This thread is way off topic, but it's still interesting, at least to me.

-Walt



iheartbicycles said:


> I think it's a matter of nomenclature and perception.
> 
> When you use nomenclature such as the title of this thread "DH Bike" it creates the perception that you really mean to discuss DH bikes. Instead what we have in this thread is a bunch of people defending the idea that a 5-6" travel bike is robust enough for rough trails.
> 
> ...


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

iheartbicycles said:


> So 40 semi pro riders were faster than him - and they were all running DH bikes - and you're saying that's just a coincedence?
> 
> I do admit that you and your kid are awesome riders - but realistically all competetive DH'ers ride DH bikes.


NO....He said his kid was mid pack which means 20 or so were faster than him on full DH bikes. I got the point and Don is right. YES you need the right equipment if you are competing at top levels but we all and that includes me, put too much emphasis on gear. Almost always the best rider wins.

Walt is right of course, there is more to a DH bike than just travel. Tons of it is still the rider.

Dave B


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Walt said:


> We're not talking about trail bikes. There is a distinct difference between a 5-6" travel trail bike and a 5-6" travel DH bike - head angle, toptube length, spring rates, stem/bar/saddle setup, tires, crank/drivetrain setup, etc, etc.
> 
> The reason nobody rides shorter travel DH bikes (though you'll find them at DH races among the pros all the time) is that they're not what's available on the market. It makes me laugh when I see some 5'2" kid on a V10 struggling to keep up with his friends on shorter travel bikes or hardtails - and I see that kind of thing all the time.
> 
> ...


The bikes posted in this thread are nothing more than trail bikes. Just because you stick a DUC on a specialized ,does not make it a DH bike.

To my knowledge you and Alex Morgan are the only two to have ever produced real 29'er DH bikes.

That and DWF is too old and frail to even take part in these conversations without his dentures falling out.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Agreed...*

I'm really not talking about Jay's bike, yeah. That's not even vaguely a DH setup. I told him so yesterday on the phone.

I can't wait to see the new line of Anvil CNC'd dentures...

-W



iheartbicycles said:


> The bikes posted in this thread are nothing more than trail bikes. Just because you stick a DUC on a specialized ,does not make it a DH bike.
> 
> To my knowledge you and Alex Morgan are the only two to have ever produced real 29'er DH bikes.
> 
> That and DWF is too old and frail to even take part in these conversations without his dentures falling out.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

iheartbicycles said:


> The bikes posted in this thread are nothing more than trail bikes. Just because you stick a DUC on a specialized ,does not make it a DH bike.


Like I said, you're clearly confused. I never billed the Stumpy w/ DUC32 as a DH bike, it's an Epic XC bike that I rode DH on because the Commencal was the suck.

I realize that I need "more bike" than that but would like to do a DH rig w/ 29er wheels.

I wanted to see some 29er DH bikes so I could start thinking in those terms as the Stumpy isn't and never will be a great DH bike (though it worked fine for me this past trip).

So post up something useful, pictures would be great.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

jay_ntwr said:


> Like I said, you're clearly confused. I never billed the Stumpy w/ DUC32 as a DH bike, it's an Epic XC bike that I rode DH on because the Commencal was the suck.
> 
> I realize that I need "more bike" than that but would like to do a DH rig w/ 29er wheels.
> 
> ...


Google Alex Morgan, BCD.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

iheartbicycles said:


> Google Alex Morgan, BCD.


I did it for you - cause even though I've mentioned it two or three times already, you apparently need hand holding.
http://www.littermag.com/techno/bcd29er/1.htm


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

iheartbicycles said:


> So 40 semi pro riders were faster than him - and they were all running DH bikes - and you're saying that's just a coincedence?
> 
> I do admit that you and your kid are awesome riders - but realistically all competetive DH'ers ride DH bikes.


Mid-pack in a 40-deep Semi-Pro field means he was mid-pack. Somewhere around 20'th. He was 16yo at the time. Which means out of the 350-odd DHer's at the race, he would of been in the top 60 or so and still beaten many of the Pros.

I agree that realistically all competitive DH'ers ride DH bikes. A DH bike is a huge advantage and makes it a lot easier, but that doesn't mean you'll be fastest or even that you need an 8" travel DH bike to be competitive or to even enjoy yourself on rough courses/trails. You want to race against the best, you'd better have all the advantages they have, other than that, it's still mostly about you & your skills and not the bike.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

jay_ntwr said:


> But I absolutely can't recommend it to anyone else because it's so difficult to dial in and get right.


It's really not about the setup in my mind. It's the fact that the thing is a complete noodle structurally. It can barely hold a line on mild singletrack.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

iheartbicycles said:


> I did it for you - cause even though I've mentioned it two or three times already, you apparently need hand holding.


Man, there's a lot of swinging d!cks around here these days.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

I'd rather ride a 26" hardtail with good geometry than the Abortion Party that a 29" DH bike would ride like for someone of my stature...

The #1 consideration with desiging gravity bikes is geometry... Get the geometry right, and make all the sacrifices you need to to fit your suspension, wheels, etc in the frame....


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

pvd said:


> It's really not about the setup in my mind. It's the fact that the thing is a complete noodle structurally. It can barely hold a line on mild singletrack.


Roll downhill at a medium clip, pavement preferably. Grab a whole handful of front brake. Watch that front wheel get ever so close to the left fork leg.

Maybe some people like a fork to pick their line for them?


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Let's not ignore the fact that the picture that DWF posted is rad.


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

Vlad said:


> Let's not ignore the fact that the picture that DWF posted is rad.


It's even more rad when you're there to watch Jr. in person. It's about the most humbling thing you'll ever witness. :thumbsup:


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Walt said:


> Of course, Nico is about the biggest stud on earth, yes. But "pwned"? What is this, a Halo 2 chat room?.
> 
> -Walt


Actually more like The Sims - Fred Edition.

You're just tetchy because the Aussies and Euros have PWNED your arses in the WC circuit for the past 10 years. Heck, there's only one of you fat hamburger muchers in the top 20.

:thumbsup:


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

SuspectDevice said:


> I'd rather ride a 26" hardtail with good geometry than the Abortion Party that a 29" DH bike would ride like for someone of my stature...


What about 650B?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

brant said:


> What about 650B?


Is that a troll Brandt? 
650b has no place on DH bikes either. The things that make 650b desirable for xc use aren't issues for DH use... 
The lateral tire deformation characteristics of a DH weight tires are just fine (if not optimal) in the 26x2.5" and larger range... Peripheral wheel weight is an issue, but obviously far less important for DH use... The most important thing is that we can make it down the hill with air in the tires... In fact, I think most of us in the elite DH race community have found that tubeless tires are completely useless for DH, even with their marked improvements in unsprung mass. The tires just don't have the right sort of lateral flex, and all the tubeless rims (save maybe the Stan's Flows) are too stiff to be used by a fast rider... Pinchflatting sidewalls on tubeless tires is a very real problem... We need large airvolume tires with at least mid-weight tubes running pressures in the mid 30's to low 20's... And we need the appropriate wheelbase and trail numbers to ride modern courses at modern speeds.

26" wheels are, literally the only option without completely re-inventing the sport.

650b wheels for slalom however... Are fun as hell. I have 650b wheels on my "grass" bike and 26" on the "berm" bike...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

SuspectDevice said:


> I have 650b wheels on my "grass" bike and 26" on the "berm" bike...


What about on your "molehill" bike? 650 rear, 29 front?


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

SuspectDevice said:


> I think most of us in the elite DH race community


Interesting, so then for those of us that intend to ride DH once or twice/yr, 29er may not be such a bad choice. Keep in mind, the 29er Stumpy did better for me than a Commencal 26"--for me. But I'm not elite DH race community member, admittedly.

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. This has been a great discussion. Watch for the kick off after I get the WWTP SS done. 29er DH rig will probably be #2.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

There is no need for DH bikes for "recreational" DH riders. The geometry on most stock bikes is more suited for recreational riding than it is for racing.

People rarely ever take the time to properly spring the suspension, adjust the cockpit, etc.
You can't just take a DH bike out of the box and ride it... Even most people who ride DH weekly have bikes that are setup incredibly poorly. Rental bikes are the worst of the worse...
Even if you built a frame for 29" wheels you most certainly wouldn't be able to ride without a fork or tires.... And there will never be a suitable 29" dh tire or fork.

For novelty purposes, or a fun design exercise it will probably be a really fun, challenging project, so if you have your heart set on it, do it. But if you are looking for something that would be good for riding downhill above a snails pace on XC level trails i think you are chasing the wrong horse... 

What's your aim with the big wheel?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

SuspectDevice said:


> People rarely ever take the time to properly spring the suspension, adjust the cockpit, etc. You can't just take a DH bike out of the box and ride it... Even most people who ride DH weekly have bikes that are setup incredibly poorly. Rental bikes are the worst of the worse...


Amazing, isn't it? I've done so much work on my DH bike to get it working well. Swapped F&R springs countless times. Rebuilt the 40 damper about 4 times changing fluid and bottom resistance. Handlebars go up, then down, then up, and down. Bla, bla, bla...

99% of them out there slap some white parts together and call it done. They don't even realize how poorly their bike rides because they think having some $$$ part makes it all better.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

jay_ntwr said:


> so then for those of us that intend to ride DH once or twice/yr, 29er may not be such a bad choice.


No. It makes it the worst choice. If you only plan on riding DH once or twice a year, you are much better off running some plain jane stuff and focus on having some fun. Exotics will only cause problems every step of the way. For part timers, keep it easy.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Don't be too harsh*

I was an extremely mediocre semipro DH racer for a little while, and I find that the 29er DH bikes I've built myself are more than acceptable. They're probably slower in some situations, and faster in a few (low speed technical stuff seems to be their forte). "Snail's pace on XC trails" is certainly not an accurate statement.

This is quickly going to turn into Cloxxki-bait, but thus far all the "29ers can't do X" folks have been wrong. Chronologically:
-They won't ever catch on.
-There aren't any tires or rims or forks.
-They're too heavy and slow to race.
-They're raceable for amateurs, but no pros will ever ride them.
-etc, etc.

Now we're on "they can't be used for gravity/DH riding." Remains to be seen if that's true, but so far, the big wheels seem to be doing fine. Honestly, most of the folks saying it'll never work haven't ridden one to see what they think. I mean, I ride 26" wheel bikes too, and I like them both, but I would never talk trash about, say, 20" wheels on BMXs or something - because I've never really tried them. If you're in CO, and you're vaguely my size (ie, 6') come borrow my bike. I'm happy to loan it out. Then you can talk all the smack you want! 

29ers aren't for everyone, and 29" DH sleds certainly aren't, but it can work for some people. Alex Morgan has done quite well racing on 29" wheels as a pro - he's no slouch at all. Of course, he's no slouch on 26" wheels either.

If Jay thinks it'll be fun, I say do it. The forks, tires, and other parts can be had, you just have to be creative. This is about having fun. If you're 2% slower, but having a blast, and you're not racing for money, who cares?

-Walt



SuspectDevice said:


> There is no need for DH bikes for "recreational" DH riders. The geometry on most stock bikes is more suited for recreational riding than it is for racing.
> 
> People rarely ever take the time to properly spring the suspension, adjust the cockpit, etc.
> You can't just take a DH bike out of the box and ride it... Even most people who ride DH weekly have bikes that are setup incredibly poorly. Rental bikes are the worst of the worse...
> ...


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

SuspectDevice said:


> There is no need for DH bikes for "recreational" DH riders. The geometry on most stock bikes is more suited for recreational riding than it is for racing.
> 
> What's your aim with the big wheel?


So are you suggesting that I just need to keep riding my XC bike for recreational DH?

As far as wheels, some folks just prefer big wheels. You don't see the 29er benefit in XC bikes (looking at your website) so I doubt you'd see the benefit in the DH side of the sport either. That's cool, some folks like 26", some like 650B, I like 29ers. That's why we have choices I suppose.

BTW, how tall are you without your shoes?


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Walt,
I was waiting for you to chime in... For a dude your size, or Alex's, with the resources you have at your disposal(or Alex's), they can be interesting, fun projects, hell i am building gearbox bikes and all sorts of other stuff that doesn't make any sense... Would you be faster on a bike with good tires and geometry adjusted for your size on 26" wheels? Of course. Geometry, Tires, Suspension, in that order, are what make a DH bike go fast down a hill. 

Alex could not finish a single run at Mt St Anne 2 years ago without a flat... and he was doing some pretty aggressive things inside his tires to prevent flatting. I think he managed to make it down Angelfire a couple of times with air in his tires. Alex's DH bike was fast when he could keep air in the tires... Because he was on the very cutting edge, geometry wise in terms of wheelbase, trail numbers and making his suspension work with his geometry and riding style... 
Once he got comfortable on his bike, he couldn't keep air in his tires... that's a pretty good endorsement that 29'er for DH can work though, for sure.
To ride fast enough he had to cut the arch out of his 40 so that he could use a well-damped fork... That's not an option worth pursuing... An Avalanche fork with the appropriate spacer setup would be competitive perhaps, but the demands placed on damping on the pro level get higher and higher every year, as do the geometrical adaptations... 61-62 degree head angles have become de-rigeur... (my personal bike is 62 head/ 13.2bb/45" wheelbase/39" bar height with 7" of travel on both ends) When you get 559 erd that slack, well, where are the 29'er stability benefits again? How do I keep the same contact points, trail numbers, etc? 

Why re-invent the entire DH experience for what... a 20% reduction in rolling resistance and a larger contact patch (which is eliminated by the super-high pressures needed)?


Wheel size is another argument like frame material or joinery method... All the various approaches have merits, all of them can be made to work extremely well in certain situations, but some choices make more sense for a given application than others... 

And in a discipline that is as equipment dependent as DH... well, if you don't have real tires and you don't have a good suspension unit up front, you might as well walk.

Jay,
If you only ride DH a few times a year, just ride your trailbike! Riding a DH bike is a completely different animal, and requires a massively different riding style. If you want to ride DH a few more times a year, or have a burlier bike for gravity-oriented riding, I bet you'd love one of the Lenzsports or Niners with more travel... Compared to a DH race bike, these bikes will handle MUCH more like the bikes you are used to riding, but will give you a margin of (t)error that you don't currently have... Even a fork with proper damping, instead of the Maverick on your Enduro would make a huge difference.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*All great points.*

The tire issue is close to being solved, though - the new Kodiak is supposed to be a true 2.5 with actual reinforced sidewalls. Alex was on, what, Exiwolf 2.3s or something? Those aren't even vaguely a DH tire. Heck, they're not even an aggressive XC tire.

Forks suck too, no question. I'm not debating any of that. If the appropriate equipment existed, I think the 29" wheels would be *about as good* as a good 26" setup for the right riders (ie, big folks). Will it ever exist? Probably not. DH stuff works pretty well now. But then again, if you'd told me I'd be riding a 5" travel 29er and loving it a few years ago, I'd have laughed in your face. So who knows? Maybe the WFO or the new Lenz will catch some pro DH persons fancy, they'll make a podium somewhere, and all the groms will be rolling on 700c wheels the next season. I doubt it, but people are weird.

Just for comparison, my personal DH bike has a 67deg HTA (so about 110-115mm trail with a biggish tire), 43" WB, somewhere around 14.5" BB height without sag, and 7" front/rear. It weighs about an even 40# without any expensive stuff on it. Pretty comparable in a lot of ways, geometry-wise, to a good 26" bike that would fit me well, IMO. I find it to be an advantage in getting through slow technical sections with big ruts and holes that I can't jump, and I like the traction a lot better in the corners than my old 26" bikes. Just subjective impressions, though - I haven't raced against the clock in years, and honestly probably never will again. I'm too brittle and uninsured to be hucking these days.

-Walt



SuspectDevice said:


> Walt,
> I was waiting for you to chime in... For a dude your size, or Alex's, with the resources you have at your disposal(or Alex's), they can be interesting, fun projects, hell i am building gearbox bikes and all sorts of other stuff that doesn't make any sense... Would you be faster on a bike with good tires and geometry adjusted for your size on 26" wheels? Of course. Geometry, Tires, Suspension, in that order, are what make a DH bike go fast down a hill.
> 
> Alex could not finish a single run at Mt St Anne 2 years ago without a flat... and he was doing some pretty aggressive things inside his tires to prevent flatting. I think he managed to make it down Angelfire a couple of times with air in his tires. Alex's DH bike was fast when he could keep air in the tires... Because he was on the very cutting edge, geometry wise in terms of wheelbase, trail numbers and making his suspension work with his geometry and riding style...
> ...


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

SuspectDevice said:


> Geometry, Tires, Suspension, in that order, are what make a DH bike go fast down a hill.


I think you left out one critical ingredient - that would be the human factor - otherwise known as the rider.  

Put me on the best DH bike set up pefectly for me and my weight etc. etc. and put even an novice DHer on a long travel 29er or 24" wheeled bike or whatever and I bet the more experienced DHer still kicks my butt down the mountain.


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## -dustin (Jan 5, 2009)

I miss my Imperial


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## oldskoolm4 (Jan 13, 2008)

I thought I knew that bike....

The Niner W.F.O is lookin' pretty good.


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## ajd245246 (Sep 1, 2008)

I think most of the controversy has been covered here between 26" and 29" wheels, but i still don't see there ever being any big switch from 26" to 29" at the pro level, but for recreational riders i don't think you can say anything bad about a 29er unless you've riden one. However if the regitity problem can be solved i think a lot more people would be riding bikes with 29" wheels.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Walt said:


> I've posted about this topic before on the 29er board and my blog, but without getting into too much detail:
> -Fit is hard unless you're big
> -Fork selection sucks (The WB actually just barely has clearance with the crown raised to max). I've heard there's a 6" WB single crown now, that might be pretty cool, but their stuff is pretty mediocre when compared to real high-end DH stuff.
> -Tire selection is nonexistent. I glue old innertubes inside Nevegals to make a ghetto 2-ply tire. Those work ok. I've heard WTB is going to do a knobby 2.5, that would be cool.
> ...


Geez Walt--where's the love?!

Some of what you've written I agree with--like tires. The new Kodiak is only good on rock, and it's the only choice in a psuedo dual ply tire for the next few months at least. Fork selection could definitely stand to be improved--right now your choices include the (shortened to 175, and only if you have the $$$) Dorado, WB 180 or 200, Avy, or shaving the arch on a 40. Also agreed on fit--5'7" or so will probably be the low end, depending on inseam of the rider.

Plenty of appropriate rims to choose from these days, and 6" and 7" travel bikes have proven to ride purty darn sweetiously. Like this newest iteration from Devin Lenz:


* 175mm travel on both ends.
* 14.25" BB height.
* 65.5* HTA.
* 17.25" CS.
* 6 speed, 13-28 cassette.
* 38.5# as pictured.

You doin' any more downhillin' this year? We oughta meet and do some bike swappin'--it's been too long.

MC


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Geez Walt--where's the love?!
> 
> Some of what you've written I agree with--like tires. The new Kodiak is only good on rock, and it's the only choice in a psuedo dual ply tire for the next few months at least. Fork selection could definitely stand to be improved--right now your choices include the (shortened to 175, and only if you have the $$$) Dorado, WB 180 or 200, Avy, or shaving the arch on a 40. Also agreed on fit--5'7" or so will probably be the low end, depending on inseam of the rider.
> 
> ...


Mike, a buddy of mine PM'd me this before before I even checked this forum:
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=551146

That's exciting stuff.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

Since most (all?) dual crown DH forks can be adjust at the triple tree clamps motorcycle style, why doesn't someone just machine ~1.5" arched replacement crowns instead of limiting internal travel? You can then even mess w/ offset/trail #s to compensate for 26 vs 29 if desired. Similar to the project321 29er adapters for a lefty.

Another thing I've always wondered about. If the tall front end gives fit problems, why not run clamp on bars either above or below the top clamp (again, motorcycle style.)

Just things that have always made me go hmmmm....

FWIW, I have this crazy idea to build a 36'er w/ the above mentioned crappy DUC32 w/ arched crowns & lots of offset AND travel limit spacers (75mm should be plenty) AND clip ons. Don't know it would weigh too much more than a rigid fork but that idea is best kept for a different thread.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Ok digging up an old thread.
Now that there are a few forks and tires. I hope to see more 29er DH bikes. Intense has a proto and Lenz has one. I heard one of the big companies is testing one.
I am ready.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

sikocycles said:


> Ok digging up an old thread.
> Now that there are a few forks and tires. I hope to see more 29er DH bikes. Intense has a proto and Lenz has one. I heard one of the big companies is testing one.
> I am ready.


COOL!

Yeah, this hasn't left the back of my mind. Since my welding situation has changed and I now can weld in the garage, I'm more focused on a road frame and another SS frame before I do this 29er DH rig. But it's certainly on the list to get done soon.

BTW, here is my fork. Brand new, never mounted from 2005. I've got some work to do on it to make it work for this application:


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

I have a Lenz PBJ coming soon. But i am interested in what else is out there or in peoples minds. 
Would like to hear what you have in mind.
I think it will be super fast and fun. I have all my parts ready for my frame. Hope its here for May1 opening day


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

sikocycles said:


> I have a Lenz PBJ coming soon. But i am interested in what else is out there or in peoples minds.
> Would like to hear what you have in mind.
> I think it will be super fast and fun. I have all my parts ready for my frame. Hope its here for May1 opening day


Cool, do post some pictures when it's done.

At the moment, I'm planning on a single pivot (steel of course) with semi-custom dropouts. The idea is that I'd like to use Kona's dropouts so I can go test ride the thing. If it works well, I'll swap the dropouts and add a floating brake for the next trip.

The fork really is the tough part right now. I either have to put a stop in it to keep it from going through it's full travel and bashing the tire into the crown OR do something different. Right now I'm leaning towards different and that's just going to have to be a surprise as I think it's going to be really cool.

What are you doing for wheels? I'm curious about that too.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Bot sure if you have seen this thread on the dorado yet?
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=567982
I think thats a great idea with the Kona dropouts. I think the floating brake are in a good idea. It will probably be needed. 
As for the fork I opted to get the real thing. Not messing around with the old dorado. Some were good and some were bad. 
I will be DH my bike every weekend so I will get alot of time on it so I want my fork to work.
As for wheels i have two sets. The one from my Lunchbox. King 150mm rear 20mm front 36 hole laced to gordos as the back up set.
My main set is a set of i9s DH hubs and spokes laced to gordos. I have the WTB dissent and Niner Kodiak Tires. May try tubeless but heard it hit or miss with Gordos


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Just started a Blog. We will see where this goes.
http://wagonwheeldh.blogspot.com/


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## Freddy Salgado (Jun 4, 2009)

This just in from Devin & Jamas, looks like a solid build. Havent gotten the full report in yet but look forward to getting some feedback from pro rider that chose to run the wagon wheels. All you guys racing in Co keep your eyes on those pro results, should be intresting season. Just another tool for you to chose from weather you like them or not.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Vlad said:


> Let's not ignore the fact that the picture that DWF posted is rad.


No doubt, He's dropping off of that like he knows his dad can mill him up a new set of UHMW knees if he blows em out.............................


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

SuspectDevice said:


> Geometry, Tires, Suspension, in that order, are what make a DH bike go fast down a hill.
> 
> 61-62 degree head angles have become de-rigeur... (my personal bike is 62 head/ 13.2bb/45" wheelbase/39" bar height with 7" of travel on both ends) When you get 559 erd that slack, well, where are the 29'er stability benefits again? How do I keep the same contact points, trail numbers, etc?
> 
> Why re-invent the entire DH experience for what... a 20% reduction in rolling resistance and a larger contact patch (which is eliminated by the super-high pressures needed)?


Hey Mickey-

Somehow I missed this post way back when you thunk it up. I don't mean to come off as one of the '_twennyniners are better for everything, brah_' zealots because frankly I don't ride fast or hard enough to know.

BUT...

(you knew that was coming...)

For someone like you that can obviously take care of the fabricating end of things, but that can also walk the walk on the riding end, *AND* knows _exactly_ what geo/frame dims he wants, this is a slam dunk. You *need* to build yourself one.

Like I said, I don't/can't/won't ride hard enough to know which is faster, but the groms and rippers that I've loaned my 7 x 7 29" bike out to all swear breathlessly that it's MUCH faster and smoother than whatever 26" DHer they own and normally ride.

When races are won and lost by fractions of seconds, I'm thinking that the ~20% (your number) reduction in rolling resistance PLUS the fact that the big wheels don't fall into 27" holes might be worth more than most think. Now that there are true beef-baloney tires and rims available you don't need stupid high pressures to keep 'em in contact, either.

I'd be willing to float you a set of race-worthy DH wheels and tires for the season. Seriously.

At least give it some thought.

MC


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Looks like Chris Canfield built himself up one. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=623706
Its a proto but he loves it and Niner has something in the works also.


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## pumpkinbiter (Jun 26, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> When anyone says "You can't downhill on that!" I have two words for them.
> 
> Nicolas
> 
> ...


Warwick, you said it!

But whats with the tilting of photos to make things look steeper? It seems like Im seeing a lot of that lately. I would at least pick a pic that doesn't have trees and bushes in the background looking like they are all growing sideways out of the earth. A little off topic there sorry.


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## jthurst1 (Apr 4, 2009)

*Does the Behemoth have frame clearance for WTB Kodiak?*

I'm about 240lbs and have not had any luck with tires since I switched to a 29er. The sidewalls slice like butter, pinch flats and punctures all the time and Stans sealant just blows out the holes. I have no confidence on trails like Porcupine Rim anymore. So I need a tire with a thick strong casing even if it weighs twice as much..

It looks like it comes down to the WTB Kodiak or WTB Dissent. I almost ordered the Kodiak but wasn't sure if they would have enough frame clearance on my Behemoth. I'm thinking that if they do clear the frame it will only be by a millimeter which may not be enough even for a perfectly dished and true wheel b/c often the tires/bead aren't perfectly shaped. Anyway, I ordered up the Dissent's since they have a little more clearance and I can't wait to try them out.

Has anyone tried the WTB Kodiak on a Behemoth? If so did you have frame rub? How much clearance? I'd be using it with the Stan flow rims for now but might try to find a strong rim in the near future because the Stans have a thin lip that's bent easily when flatting. So if anyone has a suggestion for a good strong rim let me know.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

pumpkinbiter said:


> Warwick, you said it! But whats with the tilting of photos to make things look steeper?


It's so you can keep Generation Xtreem's attention for more than .3 of a second.

I also hear that before he rode that, he drank 7 Red Bulls!

Hey, who stole my Ritalin!?!


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

I spent some time on the Intense 29'r proto a couple of weeks ago at Plattekill and Mtn Creek...

Even with WTB tire and rims that I'd never run by choice and a suspension design that isn't my favorite it's one of the fastest bikes I've been on. To really take advantage of the wheels you need to be going a lot faster than a washed-up pro such as myself feels like going though. When you get to that speed you have to suck up the fact that your tires are going to fail sooner rather than later though.
DH is fast and scary enough now that I'm not comfortable opening up a bike past a 2005-era speed, but talking to Swanguen, who has been riding the piss out if it, he confirmed my suspicions- he'd race it if there were tires available that held air and had usuable casings. Hearing that from one of the most stylish riders on the track struck a nerve. The suspension kinimatics and geometry on the 951 just aren't my cup of tea on a 26" bike. The 700c wheels made up for that- but until I can dump wheels into a bike with suspension and contact points that I know and like, it's hard to say for sure if I'd want to make one... 

We already have $10,000 or so into our Edge rim library here- with Edge AM rims and a decent tire(which I am pretty skeptical of happening any time soon) these things would be fast. Would they hold up to WorldCup speeds under one of the top 35 riders in the world? No. No wheel/tire systems currently do, no matter what the wheelsize. Currently only Maxxis makes a range of DH tires that are truly usable for 26" wheels. They just started making tubulars for the road market this year. The idea of them jumping into another high-end niche market any time soon makes me laugh.

So- will we see a major race won on a 29'r in the next few years? Probably not. There is a whole lot of work yet to be done, and current suspension and geometry on 26" bikes is so damn good that any advantages the larger wheel may have is still going to be minimal.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Mickey, Thanks for your input.
I will have mine in a few weeks.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

What kind of wheelbases are these bikes ending up with, particularly in larger sizes? A bike long enough to fit me and my monkey arms already gets pretty unwieldy at low speeds with 26" wheels. That's really the only thing that worries me about a 29er DH bike, at least as a concept. Obviously the development isn't really there yet.


Mickey, that makes me want to take a go on the 2951 all the more. I'm not a fan of the 951 either, but if you're equally non plussed with the regular one, but have that to say of the 29er...


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