# Manitou Markhor26" on 24" bike for an 80lb. kid?



## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

2014 Rocky Mountain Vertex 24 with Suntour XCR Air fork. Bought the bike new, now on it's second kid. The fork has never worked right, have completely dis-assembled and cleaned/lubed everything and it is almost always stuck mid stroke unless it takes a big hit.

I'd like to fit a better fork on it for him, but there are very limited options in 24" with straight steer tubes.

Markhor is +41mm in A-C, will raise BB height ~16mm to ~314mm, slack head tube to ~68* and save 300g weight. Correct me if there are any red flags there, it seems reasonable to me with my limited geo knowledge.

My concern is how well the fork will work with an 80lb. rider, the lowest weight on the Markhor psi chart is for 120lb rider and 70-90psi.

Anyone have any experience with light weights on this fork? Or better alternatives?

Cheers,
Guy


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Yeah, just get the Manitou JUnit fork. Its the ultimate in kids fork, nothing else comes close in a 24". Equivalent to an 800$ fork as it has their best dual-chamber airspring, their best damper and a ridiculously nice custom tune for children (not just a light rider/ladies tune).


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

Junit looks very, very nice except for the tapered steer tube and the 15mm thru axle. A new front wheel and 1.5" headset adapter (more a-c increase) plus cost of fork puts price a bit far out there on this one. If he was just getting on this bike yeah, but he's most likely moving onto his next bike come Fall.

I went ahead and ordered the Markhor. If it's too much, might try 2.5w oil instead of the 5w or attempt to source the "kids tune" internals spec'd for this fork on some youth bikes out there. His mom's bike has a Magnum, it works much better for him than his Suntour even when aired for her weight. I anticipate this will be an improvement either way.

He's dying to mullet the bike out, so we ordered an extra spacer with the fork to limit travel to 60mm. We'll throw on a 26" from another bike to give it a go. No idea if it will actually be an improvement but have a feeling he will trade the 20mm of travel for the 26" because it will look so "cool." I'll post some pics etc. when we get it installed and tested.

Cheers,
Guy


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

HPMGuy said:


> Junit looks very, very nice except for the tapered steer tube and the 15mm thru axle. A new front wheel and 1.5" headset adapter (more a-c increase) plus cost of fork puts price a bit far out there on this one. If he was just getting on this bike yeah, but he's most likely moving onto his next bike come Fall.
> 
> I went ahead and ordered the Markhor. If it's too much, might try 2.5w oil instead of the 5w or attempt to source the "kids tune" internals spec'd for this fork on some youth bikes out there. His mom's bike has a Magnum, it works much better for him than his Suntour even when aired for her weight. I anticipate this will be an improvement either way.
> 
> ...


You can convert a 15mm to QR for like $20 with an adapter, DT and numerous others make a sleeve for it. Personally, I would find a used SID or Reba, you can run them down to like 20psi and straight steerer versions aren't terribly difficult to get on ebay, CL, or pinkbike.


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## G-Ryder (Jan 29, 2007)

I bought a used Marzocchi X-Fly for my son's 24" build on E-bay. 
Works great.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

What you are doing is pretty much what I had planned for my sons MT220, but when I added up all the costs, I decided to just buy him a new bike. His MT220 would have needed disc brakes, hubs, fork, stem, bars, shifters, etc, and I got to the point where I just asked myself why, and it still had a junk 3x7. You are starting out with most of the stuff needed for the swap.

The Commencal HT Junior 27.5 arrives on Sunday according to Fedex.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

G-Ryder said:


> I bought a used Marzocchi X-Fly for my son's 24" build on E-bay.
> Works great.


Nice looking bike. Is that a 26" frame? Looks like it has quite a bit more wheelbase than my son's. I tried to shop used, but didn't find anything that caught my eye. I'm into the Markhor $209 shipped, so it was hard to pass up.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

nobody special said:


> What you are doing is pretty much what I had planned for my sons MT220, but when I added up all the costs, I decided to just buy him a new bike. His MT220 would have needed disc brakes, hubs, fork, stem, bars, shifters, etc, and I got to the point where I just asked myself why, and it still had a junk 3x7. You are starting out with most of the stuff needed for the swap.
> 
> The Commencal HT Junior 27.5 arrives on Sunday according to Fedex.


I hear you, with the money we will have in this bike from stock we could have bought a different bike.....not as nice as that Meta HT though. The thing is, he's very attached to this bike and not ready to let go. I think the reason for that is all of the elbow grease he has invested in it and the reward of seeing how every upgrade has improved the rideability of the bike. The Markhor will be an experiment...hopefully we'll come out on the positive side. If not, he'll have the experience of installing and modifying the internals of a new fork. As his next bike will most likely be turnkey, it's a good opportunity for that.

That Meta HT is a really nice looking package.! Looking at the Geo, it shows bottom bracked drop of 30mm, the Vertex is 25mm. Taking into acount the much larger tires (27.5 vs. 24) I'm much less concerned about this conversion raising his BB height.

Fork is scheduled to be delivered on Monday. I'll post some info when we get it installed.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

My son was attached to his MT220, right up until I sat him on my bike and let him ride it around the yard. Then he was interested in a new bike.

His Commencal arrived about an hour ago and we put it together. It is a little big for him but he is 9YO and 55" tall. It is 1.5" away from being perfect. He is very happy with it. I'll do some pictures in a new post in a day or so, I want to sort it out as best we can first.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I am interested in how well the Markhor fork works, because the Meta HT Jr comes with a steel stanchion Rockshox Recon, and an aluminum Markhor would knock about 600 grams off the bike.

Nukeproof has the re-valved Markhor on their Race 26" bike, so I assume parts must be purchasable and retro-fittable.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

nobody special said:


> I am interested in how well the Markhor fork works, because the Meta HT Jr comes with a steel stanchion Rockshox Recon, and an aluminum Markhor would knock about 600 grams off the bike.
> 
> Nukeproof has the re-valved Markhor on their Race 26" bike, so I assume parts must be purchasable and retro-fittable.


Noticed the youth tuning on the Nukeproof. If that isn't available, the fork is also compatible with the ABS+ Damper which is re-shimable and Manitou offers a PDF tuning guide for.

Just found this thread showing the two damper assemblies, looks like the Kwik Toggle can also be re-shimmed to some extent.

https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-kwik-toggle-damper-anyone-1053156.html


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The Markhor is based on the previous R7 platform and some of those are still available. You can put ABS+ in either and tune the damper for kids.

The big benefit of the Machete Junit is the positive/negative air self balances for lighter and heavier riders. The R7 and Markhor have a steel negative spring which is hard to swap out and has limited options.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

Dougal said:


> The Markhor is based on the previous R7 platform and some of those are still available. You can put ABS+ in either and tune the damper for kids.
> 
> The big benefit of the Machete Junit is the positive/negative air self balances for lighter and heavier riders. The R7 and Markhor have a steel negative spring which is hard to swap out and has limited options.


Can the Junit features that make it good for kids be swapped into a 27.5 Machete fork?

Or how well would a standard Machete work with a kid that is 75-80 lbs?

I had been thinking for the fork that lighter would be good, and it still would be, but we now have three rides and at least 20 miles on the new 27.5 Commencal with the Recon RL fork, we are actually pretty happy with the Recon RL performance. I sort of thought we would not be happy with both the Recon RL performance and weight, but the performance was much better than expected.

Thanks


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## G-Ryder (Jan 29, 2007)

HPMGuy said:


> Nice looking bike. Is that a 26" frame? Looks like it has quite a bit more wheelbase than my son's. I tried to shop used, but didn't find anything that caught my eye. I'm into the Markhor $209 shipped, so it was hard to pass up.


Yes, it's a 26" frame in XS. Wheelbase and chainstay are a bit long. Once he moves upto 26" wheels should be a bit better. But he loves it and it fits him pretty well. 
Got the fame for about $100, had a bunch of parts, scored a 24" wheelset for cheap. Got some 152mm cranks.

I didn't want to buy a 24" bike with him growing so fast.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

Markhor showed up yesterday, we installed it last night. Fit and finish on the fork is first class, very impressed. Guestimated a starting pressure of 50psi. from the chart on the fork as the lowest listed is 70-90 for 120lb rider. Finished after dark, he threw his headlight on and rode for a good hour+ around his track and all we can say is wow! Beyond thrilled with how this fork works! Extremely minimal stiction, like un-noticeable. With 50psi the fork sag (yes, it sags....unheard of with the suntour) is a little bit too much, we'll tweak the psi to tune that in. He's also using full travel/bottoming on jumps, not hard but a little more psi will help there too. He was standing up pedaling by yelling "The fork moves when I pedal!" A strange new phenomenon to get used to.

I went into this thinking that I was going to have to do some sort of modification to get this fork to work acceptably for his weight, but as of now I can't see changing a single thing. It just works so surprisingly good. Busy week, so we won't be out on a trail until Friday afternoon, but will pay attention to how it does on some rocky sections etc.

One weird thing: We installed the 20mm spacer to reduce travel down to 80mm, but for some reason the fork is only getting 73mm of travel from stop to stop. 7mm seems like a bit far off of advertised?

Specs with 80mm (73mm) travel:
Markhour weight: 1633g un-cut, 1616 cut (198g savings over Suntour)
Ground to crown increase: 23mm
BB height increase: 10mm
HTA change: 69.6 to 68.1
Bike weight: 26lbs. 5oz.

Because the geo changes were minimal (IMO), I think he can give the 26" Mullet front a try. No initial investment as he can borrow the front wheel from the Big Dummy. If it's a no go, and he ends up going back to the 24" we'll most likely open the fork up to the 100mm (93mm?) travel and remove the spacers under the stem. Either way this should get him through this summer and into his next bike. He wants full suspension and has his eyes on the new Norco Sight Youth. I told him he needs to get a second job....He replied "But, I don't have a first job?"....exactly.... 

Cheers,
Guy


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

HPMGuy said:


> I went into this thinking that I was going to have to do some sort of modification to get this fork to work acceptably for his weight, but as of now I can't see changing a single thing. It just works so surprisingly good. Busy week, so we won't be out on a trail until Friday afternoon, but will pay attention to how it does on some rocky sections etc.


I was thinking the same thing with the Recon on the new bike. The Recon is a 150mm travel fork, he is getting about 100mm of travel out of it so far, probably he will get it to travel more once he starts jumping it. We are running just under 70 psi and it works pretty well, but I have not measured sag. Not sure we will bother, it works pretty well at this point. We have one click of rebound damping and two clicks of low speed damping.

He was a little intimidated by the size of the bike on the first ride but he quickly realized the 27.5" tires go over stuff the 24" tires wouldn't even come close to rolling over. Once he is more accustomed to size I think he will get more travel out of it.

That is good news on the Markhor.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

One more afternoon of riding on the fork. Tried the 26" mullet setup and it is a definite no-go. Not only did it look awful but it added a bit of toe overlap. We took the 20mm spacer out increasing the travel to a theoretical 100mm, which is actually 93mm, and removed 20mm of spacers under the stem. Increased the pressure a few pounds and he is still using full travel pre-loading on the transition and on landing. We'll keep adding a bit of pressure until we find the sweet spot. He is loving the setup!

Another interesting thing on the fork is the rebound knob, it does not have any kind of detent or indexing reference. It is just a simple screw. Instead of two clicks of rebound, we'll have 1/4 turn? Non-issue now as we have it all the way open and seems to be plenty at these low pressures.



nobody special said:


> He was a little intimidated by the size of the bike on the first ride but he quickly realized the 27.5" tires go over stuff the 24" tires wouldn't even come close to rolling over.


For sure! My son earned the nickname is "Ricochet" as he has a knack for hitting a rock/root/stick/pinecone and his bike will fly off off the side leaving him in the middle of the trail. He's getting better at un-weighing the front end for obstacles, but the overwhelming majority of these would be rolled without issue on 27.5".


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

HPMGuy said:


> Markhor showed up yesterday, we installed it last night. Fit and finish on the fork is first class, very impressed. Guestimated a starting pressure of 50psi. from the chart on the fork as the lowest listed is 70-90 for 120lb rider. Finished after dark, he threw his headlight on and rode for a good hour+ around his track and all we can say is wow! Beyond thrilled with how this fork works! Extremely minimal stiction, like un-noticeable. With 50psi the fork sag (yes, it sags....unheard of with the suntour) is a little bit too much, we'll tweak the psi to tune that in. He's also using full travel/bottoming on jumps, not hard but a little more psi will help there too. He was standing up pedaling by yelling "The fork moves when I pedal!" A strange new phenomenon to get used to.
> 
> I went into this thinking that I was going to have to do some sort of modification to get this fork to work acceptably for his weight, but as of now I can't see changing a single thing. It just works so surprisingly good. Busy week, so we won't be out on a trail until Friday afternoon, but will pay attention to how it does on some rocky sections etc.
> 
> ...


The missing travel is in the top-out springs and bottom-out bumper. The bottom bumper will compress about 5-7mm when hit hard enough. The top-out springs (coil spring with rubber bumper inside on that fork) require more air pressure to fully compress them.

It's the top-out spring system that makes the J-unit Machetes soo good compared to everything else. They use air so it self adjusts to your air pressure.

The older 32mm Manitou forks (any from about 2008) can be converted to the Expert Air system the Junits are using. But not without modification. I haven't done the whole thing yet but I have test fit the parts that matter and it can be done. The modifications are required to the air piston (to fit stanchion diameter) and to the lower legs (different foot attachment).


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Hey HPMGuy, do you care to provide any updates on how your kiddo is doing with the Markhor? 

We picked up a Vitus Kids 24 Plus for my son's birthday last month and the plan is to get him a suspension fork for Christmas. I had been looking at the Suntour XCR 24 Air and RST F1RST Air 24 and leaning toward the RST. (Need 1-1/8" straight steerer and 9x100 QR like you.) But with a planned change to smaller tires due to the fork limitations, I figured a short travel 26" fork with a longer A2C would be a good option if we could get it to work for his weight. The Markhor seems like it might be just right for what we need.


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## HPMGuy (Mar 7, 2014)

rton20s said:


> Hey HPMGuy, do you care to provide any updates on how your kiddo is doing with the Markhor?
> 
> We picked up a Vitus Kids 24 Plus for my son's birthday last month and the plan is to get him a suspension fork for Christmas. I had been looking at the Suntour XCR 24 Air and RST F1RST Air 24 and leaning toward the RST. (Need 1-1/8" straight steerer and 9x100 QR like you.) But with a planned change to smaller tires due to the fork limitations, I figured a short travel 26" fork with a longer A2C would be a good option if we could get it to work for his weight. The Markhor seems like it might be just right for what we need.


Excellent! Would definitely buy it again. I cannot recall the pressure we ended up settling on, but we haven't messed with it since. It gives excellent small bump compliance and he is still able to use most of the travel. Not sure if he's actually bottomed it out, dust wipers show about 3" of clean right now after last ride. From his viewpoint, all geo changes to the bike have been positive. However I am not at all familiar with the Vitus. FWIW, the original Suntour fork was JUNK. I understand they have reworked the air spring etc., it might be an OK choice now.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

HPMGuy said:


> Excellent! Would definitely buy it again. I cannot recall the pressure we ended up settling on, but we haven't messed with it since. It gives excellent small bump compliance and he is still able to use most of the travel. Not sure if he's actually bottomed it out, dust wipers show about 3" of clean right now after last ride. From his viewpoint, all geo changes to the bike have been positive. However I am not at all familiar with the Vitus. FWIW, the original Suntour fork was JUNK. I understand they have reworked the air spring etc., it might be an OK choice now.


Thanks for the reply! Good to hear even with a lighter weight rider you were able to dial in small bump compliance and overall travel.

I think the 26" Markhor might be a viable option for us, and likely well worth the premium over the XCR 24 Air. The XCR Air, while cheapest, is heavy and probably has the worst damper. The RST seems the better choice of those two with a lighter weight and arguably better damper, but costs a bit more IF you can find one. The 26" Markhor is barely heavier than the 24" RST and it also has an option to upgrade to the really nice ABS+ damper should we ever feel the need. It also looks like there are still a few vendors that have it in stock for a little more than the RST.

My biggest concern had been the affect on geometry. I've ran the numbers on the Vitus and also just checked your 2014 Vertex for comparison. Looking at your OE XCR vs the Markhor at 100mm travel and both with 25% sag, it appears your geometry would change as follows...

Head Tube Angle: 70.5 > 68.8
Seat Tube Angle: 74 > 72.3
Wheelbase: 968 > 978.8
Effective Top Tube: 500 > 504.5
BB Drop: 25 > 12.9
Reach (calculated): 359.8 > 345.4
Stack (calculated): 479.9 > 490.4

By comparison, the changes appear to be even more subtle on our Vitus. With the OE rigid fork (400mm A2C) compared to the Markhor with 80mm travel and 25% sag (416mm A2C), we would have the following...

Head Tube Angle: 67 > 66.2
Seat Tube Angle: 73 > 72.2
Wheelbase: 987 > 993.4
Effective Top Tube: 496 > 498.3
BB Drop: 45 > 38.9
Reach (calculated): 345.9 > 338.6
Stack (calculated): 487.8 > 492.9

The geometry change with the XCR would be negligible (same A2C after sag) and with the RST it would swing things the other direction ever so slightly (-5mm A2C after sag).


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