# discuss the existential nature of bikesdirect



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

I just noticed that Vecusu has wisely closed a BD related thread with this statement:

_Thread closing. When it was about the bikes themselves it was marginally acceptable. But this has devolved into a discussion about the company. Start a new thread if you wish to discuss the existential nature of bikesdirect. I'll grab some popcorn if that happens.
__________________
Vecsus_

The thread did not bother me; but it was strange in terms of reaction by some members.
However, the thread helped me refocus on our mission.
Simply put: Providing High Grade Bikes at Lowest Prices That We Can

This is important to me and has been for 30 years. I have always had some criticism for doing this. Started when I began selling full nouvo record campy Colnago, Viner, Masi, and such for under $1000 - I was shocked how many people did not like that; but many loved it.

My feeling is it is an important mission to try to get cyclists on the best bike that they can afford; even though I know there are those that object to that.

In today's environment and economy it becmoes more important; I feel

Many may have heard; prices on bikes are going up - most companies have started with a 5% increase [that is only the beginning]

The best detailed reasons I have seen came from one of our suppliers:

_1) The US dollar has lost 9% of its value to the major Asian currencies in the last 6 months. This is a significant issue for us as an importer, and the dollar continues to be highly volatile.

2) Raw material prices have skyrocketed in price; aluminum and steel prices are escalating without check. Recent flooding in Australia just raised iron ore prices by $500 a ton.

3) A flood in Indonesia resulted in a shortage of raw latex and rubber prices have gone up 40% in the last 6 months, with suppliers adjusting prices almost weekly.

4) Transportation costs are on the rise again as oil rebounds and impacts us on many levels, from moving product into the factory, shipping them to our warehouse and then sending on to you. Fuel prices will be going up, you hear it everywhere and we are already impacted with our transportation costs. We are already seeing this at the gas pump.

5) Inflation in Asia is very high, we were just informed the Chinese will raise minimum wage by 18% this coming March. Even though labor is not a high content on the cost of building a bicycle, it will result in increases.

6) Energy costs are rising and as a result the expenses in the manufacturing environment are rising along with them._

This is a forum on 29ers; so I should discuss my desire to get a nice multi speed AL 29er under $400 or a nice Ti 29er under $1700 or a nice FS 29er under $1300 - but some would object to details on that. And it maybe hard with todays increasing prices anyway.

But I think it might be interesting to talk about two examples of what we do:

Mini Velo: several factories presented me with the opportunity to introduce their Mini Velo in USA - one sample I got would have been $1500 to customers another would have been about $800. I thought these bikes would be fun 2nd, 3rd, or backup bikes for lots of people. But I understand not everyone has an extra $1500 laying around - so I designed 2 models that could be sold for under $300 delivered 



 Not for eeveryone but some cyclists will love these - with the help from a few forum members I was able to make some design improvements and we will try these out. Key to me is that people can afford them.

Classic City Bikes: the bikes that I saw as a kid in the 50s as being the import style bike from europe is back; made a bit more modern. Several makers have these but I felt the prices were just to high [as much as $600 for a single speed city bike and $900 for a 3-speed IGH]; so I reworked this concept a bit 



 and wanted to make this type of fun stylish practical bike available at the lowest cost I could. I wanted a bike at $199 delivered but for the reasons so well spelled out above I could only get a bit under $250. I think new riders, commuters, and just about any cyclist could enjoy an extra bike like this around the house. Key to me is that people can afford them.

These are examples of the existential nature of bikesdirect; our mission and what we do.
Our customers seem to like it and it brings us all a lot of joy to get people on quality bikes they can enjoy at a price that they can afford.


----------



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I used to not care/stick up for you and your minions...I didn't have much issue with the OP's initial topic on the last thread....
But now with this thread..... :madman:


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

I was enjoying the last thread especially as I wanted to discuss the semantics and spelling of spelled/spelt (one is a pedagogy, the other is a grain) as they relate to smelled/smelt.

While you can spell spelt, you can also smell smelt (depending on whether you're talking about a fish or a metallurgical process will impact your olfactory sensation).


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Oh, and one more thing, I'm sure BD isn't opposed to the company being discussed on these forums (or any forums) because he wisely knows that the more his company is being discussed, the more recognition he has. A friend of mine who works for US Divers always says, "Bad ink is better than no ink." Ask Jennifer Aniston, Christina Aguilera, and Angelina Jolie.


----------



## Vecsus (Apr 17, 2004)

wow. BD took my joke and ran with it. However, there is no 29er connection here so I am moving this soon-to-be train wreck to the general forum. Let the masses decide.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Vecsus said:


> wow. *BD took my joke and ran with it*. However, there is no 29er connection here so I am moving this soon-to-be train wreck to the general forum. Let the masses decide.


Sorry
I had no way of telling it was a joke

Maybe if it were marked JOKE like is

JOKE ----> _A horse walks into a bar. The bartender asks, "Hey, why the long 
face?" _

Then I could have spotted it right away


----------



## Oatbag (Jun 25, 2010)

I like when knives are lablelled "CAUTION: Sharp" and stove elements have a "CAUTION: Hot" sign.


----------



## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

cheap chinese crap...wow, we need MORE of that!


----------



## the_owl (Jul 31, 2009)

I think direct engagnement with forums is a bad idea for vendors and manufs. But hey, its your call. There is no filter on mediums like this.If you want an example of how to interact on a public forum with your customers, look at hanssc in ibis or Ken in Pivot.
take the beefs, warranty and *****ing to email, not the forum.


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

*Now back to the original purpose of the thread:*

Now back to the original purpose of the thread:

Bikes are absurd. This thread has no purpose because nothing does. Where's my cigarettes and beret?


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

"that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

steadite said:


> cheap chinese crap...wow, we need MORE of that!


Which brand are you speaking of?
Just wondering if you know the ratio of sales by courty of origin for all popular brands of bikes?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

the_owl said:


> I think direct engagnement with forums is a bad idea for vendors and manufs. But hey, its your call. There is no filter on mediums like this.If you want an example of how to interact on a public forum with your customers, look at hanssc in ibis or Ken in Pivot.
> take the beefs, warranty and *****ing to email, not the forum.


Opinions are welcome

I do get PM and emails that support the idea of us on forums all the time
PLUS you will find many many posts by members who feel that all vendors should come on the forums and exchange ideas

I think vendors being on forums improves communication and fun; resulting in better products and services and more interest in our sport - I love coming on the forums when I have time

And Opinions are welcome; I like that


----------



## wyatt79m (Mar 3, 2007)

Wow, another BD advertisement.....


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

BD provides a quality product at a great price.


Business 101 taught me that.

/thread.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

wyatt79m said:


> Wow, another BD advertisement.....


whenever a manufacturer/retailer posts on a forum it's an ad. Bad ink is better than no ink. Detractors of any company would be better not to post on the threads and let them sink if they don't like them. Handle complaints/issues backchannel through PM's.
Just my $0.02


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Creating a company purely based on delivering the lowest possible price, is not good for the health of the industry as a whole.

If there is no profit, there is no need to be in said industry. Without said industry, say goodbye to local jobs. 

I have no beef with other countries, they need jobs too. They should create them locally. I'd rather buy beef my neighbor raised, than some corporate beef giant in Kansas, etc.

I do take issue with a company being so selfish as to believe that by making the most low dollar sales, they are "helping" anyone but themselves. 

When a local shop closes because too many of it's customers buy into Walmart style thinking, only to then have gas spike up to a level where it's no longer profitable to produce overseas and ship it here, then all the way to their door, what will those cyclists you long to help, do then? 

You don't have to make a killing, or buy a third home in the Caribbean, but would it kill you to make enough so as to be on par with other players? Then you'd sell bikes because they had actual merit, like design, quality, ride characteristics, etc, not just price. 

I'd feel better selling someone a bike because they had a good solid buying experience, not because I was willing to take it in the ... harder any other shop in town.

Can't wait for gas to hit $6 a gallon, then all you giant carbon footprint cheap gas beneficiaries will fade away like ice cubes on the sidewalk in July.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

To the OP, there is no existential nature to what you do. Silly of you to think otherwise.


----------



## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Come on, the OP is just posting a thinly veiled ad. 

Kill the freakin' thread already.


----------



## theextremist04 (Jul 15, 2008)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I have no beef with other countries, they need jobs too. They should create them locally. I'd rather buy beef my neighbor raised, than some corporate beef giant in Kansas, etc.


What's wrong with Kansas?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

womble said:


> Come on, the OP is just posting a thinly veiled ad.
> 
> Kill the freakin' thread already.


Actually I was just having Fun with Vecsus
for closing a thread someone else had started with an invitation for a post on the nature of BD - we already run ads on RBR; so people know who we are

Also I thought it won't hit to pass along some of the reasons that cyclists will see prices going up. Unlike some; I am very sensitive to prices cyclists have to pay. I would like to see everyone have 3 or 4 bikes to use in various ways; so I dislike high prices.

Of course, I can not control all the reasons that bikes are increasing in cost


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Creating a company purely based on delivering the lowest possible price, is not good for the health of the industry as a whole.
> 
> If there is no profit, there is no need to be in said industry. Without said industry, say goodbye to local jobs.
> 
> ...


Right, so as consumers we should boycott every company that manufactures products in China. Who wants to start the list? It'd be shorter to start the list of products that are manufactured in the USA. Now, does made in the USA mean the raw materials were manufactured here, or that the raw materials were sourced from other places and simply assembled here? Does it mean all component parts had to be assembled here?

I find it intriguing how much enmity BikesDirect receives from most of the bike forums, yet I know that TREK is no longer the same company that I bought my TREK 300 from over 25 years ago. Even Cannondale has been the last company to move their frame production to China, yet they have.

If we take your logic to some extreme, we would boycott Trek, Specialized, Giant, Jamis, and all the other companies, and only buy bikes handcrafted with pride in the USA!

We should boycott Walmart, Amazon.com, Home Depot, Lowes, all chain/franchise stores and restaurants, products from Kansas, or any other state/county/city/neighborhood that is not our own.

Close the borders, circle the wagons, the sky is falling, don't support brown and yellow people, and Kill ******!

All because BikesDirect.com exists and dares post on Bike Forums.

I know that I no longer have to blame my governor, city commission, school board, president, and congress for our current economic and climate woes, I can blame Bikesdirect.com.


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

theextremist04 said:


> What's wrong with Kansas?


Nothing, and if I could buy beef from my neighbor in KS (assuming I lived there), that was born, raised and slaughtered in a humane way, all on the same farm, I'd be all over it, just like I am (and do) here in NY.

It was pointed at industrial farming, not Kansas, they were just along for the ride.


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Garilia said:


> If we take your logic to some extreme, we would boycott Trek, Specialized, Giant, Jamis, and all the other companies, and only buy bikes handcrafted with pride in the USA!


Hot dog, we have a weiner.

Yes, exactly.

Consumer dollars are votes with businesses. You buy a BD bike, you support the problem. You shop at Walmart, you support the problem.

You scrimp and save, and buy a frame from someone like Coconino, IF, Lenz, Soulcraft etc, buy meat and produce from your local farmers market, shop at whatever local stores with local owners you have left in town, you support the solution.

Or, fill your starter mansion with useless cheap crap that your kids won't want when you die, and the train just keeps on a rollin'.....

I'd rather have a mostly empty house with a few nice pieces of Stickley, than three living rooms filled with sh*t from Home Center Direct.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Hot dog, we have a weiner.
> 
> Yes, exactly.
> 
> ...


Very well said .......Thank you .


----------



## San Marcos (Feb 9, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith, your shop sells bikes sourced from china, right?


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Very well said .......Thank you .


Right, so why aren't Trek, Specialized, and Giant threads met with the same derision that seems reserved for bikesdirect?

Oh wait, I know, I know. Mike, people don't like you or your business model.

Publicly.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

San Marcos said:


> MendonCycleSmith, your shop sells bikes sourced from china, right?


I noticed a Jamis link on his site. I wonder if he sells Shimano components, oh wait, they're made in Japan, which is almost New York right? :madman:


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Garilia said:


> Right, so why aren't Trek, Specialized, and Giant threads met with the same derision that seems reserved for bikesdirect?
> 
> Oh wait, I know, I know. Mike, people don't like you or your business model.
> 
> Publicly.


You missed the point in that post entirely . If more consumers demanded made in the US products instead of products made by 12 yo's in third world nations and dumped in US markets , the offshore sourcing would stop and American productivity would return . As long as cheap ass consumers continue to demand goods that are made by little more than slave labor its ok , just as long as its cheap right ? No back bone for doing the right thing anymore , just as long as You get yours cheap .


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

San Marcos said:


> MendonCycleSmith, your shop sells bikes sourced from china, right?


I'm a one man shop. I do sell a few bikes, yes. Less than most bike shops you know, to be honest. It's a very small segment of my business. Do I like that they are Chinese, no. I combat the nausea by offering bikes and brands that are US based. Many consumers see the value in that, others don't. The vast bulk of my business is service, be it bikes I've sold, other brands or shops and some specialty services.

The number one question I get when selling a bike is, where is it built? Can't help them with that decision there, but they are buying locally, and that, is the first step.

Sorry, I don't rattle that easily.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> You missed the point in that post entirely . If more consumers demanded made in the US products instead of products made by 12 yo's in third world nations and dumped in US markets , the offshore sourcing would stop and American productivity would return . As long as cheap ass consumers continue to demand goods that are made by little more than slave labor its ok , just as long as its cheap right ? No back bone for doing the right thing anymore , just as long as You get yours cheap .


Actually, simply because I made an ironic jab at the point made doesn't mean I missed it. Maybe it means I disagree with it.

Remember, people in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones. Be careful when you point a finger as there are usually three pointing back at you.

So in this ideal world order, can we still buy Campagnolo parts? They're not cheap, but they're not made in my local neighborhood either. So do we just have a problem with things manufactured in China?


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm a one man shop. I do sell a few bikes, yes. Less than most bike shops you know, to be honest. It's a very small segment of my business. Do I like that they are Chinese, no. I combat the nausea by offering bikes and brands that are US based. Many consumers see the value in that, others don't. The vast bulk of my business is service, be it bikes I've sold, other brands or shops and some specialty services.
> 
> The number one question I get when selling a bike is, where is it built? Can't help them with that decision there, but they are buying locally, and that, is the first step.
> 
> Sorry, I don't rattle that easily.


I can appreciate your business model and it's right to exist morally, while I guess we can accept other business models right to exist legally. It's not about trying to rattle anyone, but seeing what compromises people are willing to make with their personal ethics, especially when stating opinions about other businesses ethics and/or moral right to exist. I have a friend that works for a large grocery store chain in the southeast who can't stand Wal-Mart and rails against the Wal-Martization of America, yet his company has done as much to put mom and pop grocery stores out of business for a longer period of time. I have friends that work for companies that have government contracts, yet rail against taxes that help fund those deals. However you did write an existential piece on Bikesdirect, and fulfilled the OP's mission.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Garilia said:


> Actually, simply because I made an ironic jab at the point made doesn't mean I missed it. Maybe it means I disagree with it.
> 
> Remember, people in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones. Be careful when you point a finger as there are usually three pointing back at you.
> 
> So in this ideal world order, can we still buy Campagnolo parts?  They're not cheap, but they're not made in my local neighborhood either. So do we just have a problem with things manufactured in China?


I have a problem with the outsourcing of American industry and the underlying reasons behind it . You can be part of the solution or you are part of the problem .


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Garilia said:


> I can appreciate your business model and it's right to exist morally, while I guess we can accept other business models right to exist legally. It's not about trying to rattle anyone, but seeing what compromises people are willing to make with their personal ethics, especially when stating opinions about other businesses ethics and/or moral right to exist. I have a friend that works for a large grocery store chain in the southeast who can't stand Wal-Mart and rails against the Wal-Martization of America, yet his company has done as much to put mom and pop grocery stores out of business for a longer period of time. I have friends that work for companies that have government contracts, yet rail against taxes that help fund those deals. However you did write an existential piece on Bikesdirect, and fulfilled the OP's mission.


Basically, big business is destroying our planet, and our lives. Business is fine. When you grow to the point that your primary objective is to out compete every other business, you've lost contact with the point of business in the first place. To put food on the table, and provide a better life for your kids. This can be done with any business, WAY before it gets to penny pinching by outsourcing your costs, and creating multinational corporate structures. Once it reaches that point, it's all about greed, and how much bigger mine is, than yours.....


----------



## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep..."


----------



## San Marcos (Feb 9, 2011)

Don't worry, I wasn't trying to "rattle" you.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

ratmonkey said:


> "that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


I love that movie.

My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Garilia said:


> So in this ideal world order, can we still buy Campagnolo parts? They're not cheap, but they're not made in my local neighborhood either. So do we just have a problem with things manufactured in China?


Here's a challenge for you. Find us one business that is having stuff made in China solely because of the first rate job they do. One that moved production from their own country, to China.

Good luck 

Just because John down the street didn't make it with his own two hands isn't the problem. Things made elsewhere is fine. Things made some place simply because it's cheapest, isn't.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I have a problem with the outsourcing of American industry and the underlying reasons behind it . You can be part of the solution or you are part of the problem .


I understand that this is your feeling on the matter. It's been made clear and is self-evident.

Outsourcing, bad.

What about importing? Can I buy Belgian or Swiss chocolate?

I'm a homebrewer and am thinking of trying to start a brewing business when I retire. I think it would be wonderful if the government outlawed all imported beer from this country and then I would only have to go David and Goliath with Anheuser-Busch. Oh wait, Anheuser-Busch would like all imported beer to be banned from this country too!

Scratch that, I can't be in agreement with Anheusr-Busch, they are too much the evil empire of the beer world.

This thread has me in the mood to listen to some Rage Against the Machine.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Can't wait for gas to hit $6 a gallon, then all you giant carbon footprint cheap gas beneficiaries will fade away like ice cubes on the sidewalk in July.


I really can not wish for something that would damage the USA and american families as much a sudden increase in gas prices would. I feel the economy is at a dangerous pivotal point; and that a huge increase in energy prices would make things really bad.

And by the way; WalMart would benefit greatly from expensive fuel
I do not hate WalMart; but they do have about 90% of my Christmas kid's business already; I can not really hope for them to get more from their leverage of higher fuel prices.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Here's a challenge for you. Find us one business that is having stuff made in China solely because of the first rate job they do. One that moved production from their own country, to China.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Just because John down the street didn't make it with his own two hands isn't the problem. Things made elsewhere is fine. Things made some place simply because it's cheapest, isn't.


Right. Got that. And it's always sunny in Philadelphia, and it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime. Or something like that.

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's Farm no more...combines Bob Dylan AND Rage Against the Machine. Sweet.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child’s balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool’s gold mouthpiece the hollow horn
Plays wasted words, proves to warn
That he not busy being born is busy dying

Temptation’s page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover that you’d just be one more
Person crying

So don’t fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It’s alright, Ma, I’m only sighing

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don’t hate nothing at all
Except hatred

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Make everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It’s easy to see without looking too far
That not much is really sacred

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked

An’ though the rules of the road have been lodged
It’s only people’s games that you got to dodge
And it’s alright, Ma, I can make it

Advertising signs they con
You into thinking you’re the one
That can do what’s never been done
That can win what’s never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks they really found you

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit
To satisfy, insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something they invest in

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society’s pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he’s in

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it’s alright, Ma, if I can’t please him

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn’t talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer’s pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death’s honesty
Won’t fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes must get lonely

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed
Graveyards, false gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough, what else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
But it’s alright, Ma, it’s life, and life only

Copyright © 1965 by Warner Bros, Inc.; renewed 1993 by Special Rider Music (that means words and music by Bob Dylan)


----------



## Oatbag (Jun 25, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Because someone had to.

So far, not a lot of progress in favour of arguing the existential nature of bikesdirect.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Oatbag said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
> 
> Because someone had to.
> 
> So far, not a lot of progress in favour of arguing the existential nature of bikesdirect.


It has been determined that their existence (or at least their existence on this forum) is the cause of global economic meltdown, climate change, and teenage pregnancy.

I'm expecting John Boehner to appear on this thread at any moment now and cry.

Meanwhile, as we sit behind our computer keyboards pontificating about how cheap Chinese metal is the ruination of our planet, how do we propose to allow poor people to afford bikes (as we know they won't be able to afford an all American made car)?

I am a Wal-Mart shoppper (much to my mom's consternation, she likes KMart more) but she's a businesswoman and I'm just a Special Education teacher who hasn't seen a pay raise in three years, although I haven't seen my pay check shrink like hers has (but I digress) and I've been noticing more Macy's level shoppers driving Lexus', Infiniti's, and Acura's in the WalMart parking lot. How dare they deplete the stock of cheap goods for genuinely needy people who are now relegated to the Dollar Tree.


----------



## Moustache rider (Jun 1, 2007)

I have no problem with Bikes Direct as simply an online seller of bicycles. I do have a problem with some of your marketing practices.

1. Giving a "list price" that is just a meaningless made up number because bikes direct is the only seller of that particular product. The list price is whatever YOU are selling it for.

2. Misleading component level descriptions. For example, the Windsor Ghost 6900 is listed under *DEORE XT full suspension bikes best/pro level*, when it only has one XT component and the rest are cheaper lower level components.

3. Using the name and branding of renowned bike makers such as Motobecane. Clearly there is intent to lead people to believe there is a connection between the products you sell and the famous Motobecane of the past when there is no relationship at all.

4. Incessantly spamming the boards. Either posing as a customer just asking what people think of bikes direct because they are so cheap but just as good as (fill in the blank). Or asking disingenuous questions about the existential nature of bikes direct. Et cetera et cetera et cetera.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Moustache rider said:


> I have no problem with Bikes Direct as simply an online seller of bicycles. I do have a problem with some of your marketing practices.
> 
> 1. Giving a "list price" that is just a meaningless made up number because bikes direct is the only seller of that particular product. The list price is whatever YOU are selling it for.
> 
> ...


I think you should certainly buy where you feel comfortable

but i am kind of wondering

Do you have a problem with pricepoint?

Do you have an issue with performance?

Do you have an issue with Raleigh?

Do you have an issue with Trek?

Do you have any evidence of Incessantly spamming the boards posing as a customer by me or my employees?

Just saying......


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> I think you should certainly buy where you feel comfortable
> 
> but i am kind of wondering
> 
> ...


The [second and third] to last paragraphs of the original post taste very spammy. Why did you not address Moustache rider's points 1-3? What do the two manufacturers you listed have to do with this?


----------



## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Or, fill your starter mansion with useless cheap crap that your kids won't want when you die, and the train just keeps on a rollin'.....
> 
> I'd rather have a mostly empty house with a few nice pieces of Stickley, than three living rooms filled with sh*t from Home Center Direct.


Nicely said.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

blunderbuss said:


> The [second and third] to last paragraphs of the original post taste very spammy. Why did you not address Moustache rider's points 1-3? What do the two manufacturers you listed have to do with this?


Simple
I have addressed each of those points dozens of time over the last 5 years on this and several other forums. easy to find for those that care. [I have also addressed point 4]

Other sellers I list are just examples of many in the industry that do exactly the same thing as Moustache sites in points 1-3. So I was just wondering if it was me; or the entire industry; or business in general. Just wondering.... everyone has a right to their opinion. And I would hope that would include an opinion that someone is baised in judgement.

Example: I think if it is OK for one retailer to post MSRP, it should be OK for all.


----------



## Rucker61 (Jul 21, 2006)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I have a problem with the outsourcing of American industry and the underlying reasons behind it . You can be part of the solution or you are part of the problem .


Do you really think there's a path to bringing outsourced manufacturing back to the United States? What would that path look like, from the view of the large international corporations who would be allocating the resources to do so?


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Some people think that Bob Dylan wrote the song "Neighborhood Bully" about the state of Israel. Dylan, being ever enigmatic, won't endorse that interpretation. Maybe he was talking about Bikesdirect.com

Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He’s always on trial for just being born
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He’s the neighborhood bully

He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He’s the neighborhood bully

Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
He’s the neighborhood bully

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He’s the neighborhood bully

What’s anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He’s the neighborhood bully

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully

Copyright © 1983 by Special Rider Music


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> Simple
> I have addressed each of those points dozens of time over the last 5 years on this and several other forums. easy to find for those that care. [I have also addressed point 4]


Fair enough.



> Other sellers I list are just examples of many in the industry that do exactly the same thing as Moustache sites in points 1-3.


I disagree. Care to cite examples?



> So I was just wondering if it was me; or the entire industry; or business in general. Just wondering.... everyone has a right to their opinion. And I would hope that would include an opinion that someone is baised in judgement.
> 
> Example: I think if it is OK for one retailer to post MSRP, it should be OK for all.


It is only OK when posting in direct response to a question, anything else is advertising.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

blunderbuss said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I disagree. Care to cite examples?
> 
> It is only OK when posting in direct response to a question, anything else is advertising.


Sure
there are lots of examples of businesses that sell to customers [ie Retailers] having MSRP or List prices - including pricepoint, performance, Trek, and many others in the bike biz and in many other industries.
in fact, there are so many examples I would be shocked if you did not know about them.

My posts are not seen as advertising by consumer reveiw; and it is their site; so they are the standard by which that should be judged IMHO


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Garilia said:


> Right, so as consumers we should boycott every company that manufactures products in China. Who wants to start the list? It'd be shorter to start the list of products that are manufactured in the USA. Now, does made in the USA mean the raw materials were manufactured here, or that the raw materials were sourced from other places and simply assembled here? Does it mean all component parts had to be assembled here?
> 
> I find it intriguing how much enmity BikesDirect receives from most of the bike forums, yet I know that TREK is no longer the same company that I bought my TREK 300 from over 25 years ago. Even Cannondale has been the last company to move their frame production to China, yet they have.
> 
> ...


You, sir; Go to the head of the class :thumbsup: !

Your post just summarized Business 101 AND Philosophy 101  !


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> Sure
> there are lots of examples of businesses that sell to customers [ie Retailers] having MSRP or List prices - including pricepoint, performance, Trek, and many others in the bike biz and in many other industries.
> in fact, there are so many examples I would be shocked if you did not know about them.
> 
> My posts are not seen as advertising by consumer reveiw; and it is their site; so they are the standard by which that should be judged IMHO


Ah... I see what you're getting at. The issue is not that you list an MSRP, it's that you also list an 'our price', when you are actually the person who sets both prices as a hybrid of manufacturer and retailer. Either sell it at your inflated MSRP, or list 'our price' as MSRP. But you have been told this over and over. You choose to keep the repeating the same tired old half-truths, because the people visiting these forums who are just getting into the sport won't know any better.

FWIW, BD bikes are not bad for what they cost, but are hit and miss on the quality. I have built a few for customers. Some were good, some not so much.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

blunderbuss said:


> Ah... I see what you're getting at. The issue is not that you list an MSRP, it's that you also list an 'our price', when you are actually the person who sets both prices as a hybrid of manufacturer and retailer. Either sell it at your inflated MSRP, or list 'our price' as MSRP. But you have been told this over and over. You choose to keep the repeating the same tired old half-truths, because the people visiting these forums who are just getting into the sport won't know any better.
> 
> FWIW, BD bikes are not bad for what they cost, but are hit and miss on the quality. I have built a few for customers. Some were good, some not so much.


It appears you do not care to do the work of researching before you question our business. However, do you post that pricepoint should not be able to list MSRP on their bikes? Have you posted that performance should not post 'regular price' and sale price on bikes they import under their own name? Do you complain that Trek has shops that they own where bikes are displayed with MSRP? Do you understand that Motobecanes, Gravity, etc are also sold by dealers besides us? Do you know that magazines and sites will not reveiw or list Motobecanes at our sale prices; they need an MSRP? You should be fair IMHO

BTW - Bikes we sell are no more 'hit and miss' on quality than any brand sold in a bike shop. In fact, as you probably know they are made by the same factories.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Consumer dollars are votes with businesses. You buy a BD bike, you support the problem. You shop at Walmart, you support the problem.


So your business is completely sterile of products made outside of the U.S.?

Or are YOU part of your own 'problem'?

Hint: I guarantee your shop isn't  .


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> It appears you do not care to do the work of researching before you question our business. However, do you post that pricepoint should not be able to list MSRP on their bikes? Have you posted that performance should not post 'regular price' and sale price on bikes they import under their own name? Do you complain that Trek has shops that they own where bikes are displayed with MSRP? Do you understand that Motobecanes, Gravity, etc are also sold by dealers besides us? Do you know that magazines and sites will not reveiw or list Motobecanes at our sale prices; they need an MSRP? You should be fair IMHO
> 
> BTW - Bikes we sell are no more 'hit and miss' on quality than any brand sold in a bike shop. In fact, as you probably know they are made by the same factories.


It's like talking to a wall. Your MSRPs are inflated, and you would not sell very many bikes at those prices. Your bikes are priced very well at 'our price', why not just be honest with the customer? Why try to mislead them into thinking they're getting some kind of special pricing? Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is of course set by the manufacturer. Do you not own Motobecane? Why not just say, "We make these bikes and sell them direct so they're cheaper"?

My comments on quality are 100% based on first hand experience.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I'd like to know more about bikesdirect. How many employees? A licensed international distributor for many major bike manufacturer? How much revenue/profit? What type of business, corporation, sole proprietor, etc.? You seem to do much more than a typical distributor does, doing research, testing, and sourcing--how much influence do you have? Are you also employeed/contracted by Motobecane for developing new models for the US?

I dunno how people can criticize them when they don't even know much except for their front. I figure this thread is a good opportunity to know exactly who I'm buying from.

Do admit using Gary Fisher XC G2 geo as reference for your Fly 29ers? Not trying to criticize, just seeing if I can expect seeing more inexpensive clones of good products from BD. I know that a poor clone will just make the original seem so much better and that a good clone may be the most incredible deal going.


----------



## Rucker61 (Jul 21, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> I'd like to know more about bikesdirect. How many employees? A licensed international distributor for many major bike manufacturer? How much revenue/profit? .


I'd say that unless it's publicly traded company, his financials are none of your business.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

blunderbuss said:


> It's like talking to a wall. Your MSRPs are inflated, and you would not sell very many bikes at those prices. Your bikes are priced very well at 'our price', why not just be honest with the customer? Why try to mislead them into thinking they're getting some kind of special pricing? Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is of course set by the manufacturer. Do you not own Motobecane? Why not just say, "We make these bikes and sell them direct so they're cheaper"?
> 
> My comments on quality are 100% based on first hand experience.


I really do not understand; honestly
You seem to think it is OK for pricepoint to set an MSRP
and for Performance to show a 'regular' and sale price
and for Trek to have some shops they own that display MSRP that they set and then dis**** from and so on.

How is it that a company I own does not have the right to set MSRP and then sell bikes to another company I own part of which discounts them and also to sell them to dealers that I do not own and they are free to discount or not? It is all very confusing.

And how about the SE, Kestrel, Breezer, and GT that BD sells; is it OK to show MSRP on those? How about Vuelta wheels that are sold on bikeisland.com - OK to list MSRP on those? If we add Vuelta bikes to BD, can BD show list price on those? Where does this end?

Specialized sells some some stuff consumer direct; that means they are a retailer; they have MSRP on all their stuff; what does that mean? How about Diamondback? They sell consumer direct; they have List Prices; but sell at discount. Have you made a post about these issues?

I really do not get your question; how is bikesdirect different?


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

cda 455 said:


> So your business is completely sterile of products made outside of the U.S.?
> 
> Or are YOU part of your own 'problem'?
> 
> Hint: I guarantee your shop isn't  .


Hint: he answered that question earlier in this thread.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Should our country "ban" generic and store brands? Sound like we're moving away from free market capitalism into government control of business instead of consumer control. Do people criticize a store for marketing a store brand item that's made "exclusively" for them by saying they're designers and not just retailers? That store can be Best Buy, Sears, REI, Wal-Mart, CVS, or Piggly-Wiggly, they all do it.

My issues with Bikesdirect:

1) When I was researching my MTB purchase I had sent the email about size to the wrong address or worded it incorrectly and it took me awhile to get a reply. But I did after a couple of days.

2) All this shilling and defending I've been doing, and I haven't once been thanked or offered a larger discount on my next purchase! (I joke)

3) They don't offer their components at the same discount prices! Man, if I wanted to buy a handmade frame from somewhere else it'd probably be cheaper for me to buy one of their bikes as a parts donor than to just buy the parts.

4) They don't restock fast enough.

5) I'm a little concerned about road frame geometry on some models and my ability to dial in a fit to my body. I will more than likely spend extra money to get a pro fit.

I am having some places on my frame where the paint is scratching off to bare metal. But it is a MTB and subject to more abuse. I haven't really had the time to examine the scratches and figure out why that's happening, (is it a cheap paint job, or am I banging it around too much?) but my remedy will probably be to paint it myself.,


----------



## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> I really can not wish for something that would damage the USA and american families as much a sudden increase in gas prices would. I feel the economy is at a dangerous pivotal point; and that a huge increase in energy prices would make things really bad.
> 
> And by the way; WalMart would benefit greatly from expensive fuel
> I do not hate WalMart; but they do have about 90% of my Christmas kid's business already; I can not really hope for them to get more from their leverage of higher fuel prices.


No, it wouldn't ruin us. It would ruin those who keep trying to live by credit card though. And that is a good lesson, too late learned, should it ruin them.

The rest of us will simply make wiser choices, like, not making 13 different trips to various parts of town in the Hummer, buying something fuel efficient instead of penis enlarging, downsizing out of the ridiculous 5000 square foot "home", car pooling to work, or perhaps, I don't know, commuting by bike, yeah,that would suck, wouldn't it. 

Walmart would be crushed by expensive gas. The whole reason they exist, is because cheap gas allows their containers of garbage to flow in here on the cheap. Then truck it to all those locations, super cheap too.

Once fuel cuts into their profits, they will be forced to increase prices, cause they sure won't cut their own profit to make up for the increase. Once prices go up, they cease to be competitive, price wise. All of a sudden, buying locally, and not being such a vacuous consumer, makes much more sense.

I'm out, this is like trying to teach ballet to cats.


----------



## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> No, it wouldn't ruin us. It would ruin those who keep trying to live by credit card though. And that is a good lesson, too late learned, should it ruin them.
> 
> The rest of us will simply make wiser choices, like, not making 13 different trips to various parts of town in the Hummer, buying something fuel efficient instead of penis enlarging, downsizing out of the ridiculous 5000 square foot "home", car pooling to work, or perhaps, I don't know, commuting by bike, yeah,that would suck, wouldn't it.
> 
> ...


What's the big deal? My cat pirouettes like Baryshnikov. I just didn't try to force my home-spun view of economics down his throat. That could be where you're going wrong.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Rising gas hits everyone. The small businesses that deal in low cost products even more. Wal-mart became big due to the efficiency of their supply chain. Their prices will rise less than a small business selling similar products. Being able to shop one store instead of many is also something people would consider more, another plus for wal-mart. When you stock less than a dozen of something and need to order it frequently, a lot of money is wasted on that transportation than if you ordered a whole lot and packed that truck to the brim, which Wal-mart supposedly does.

As for financials, you cut out the part when I asked if BD was a corporation. I don't think it is, but I'm curious from a business standpoint. Don't know much about bike sales, but I do know bike shops pay practically half of MSRP on their invoice on bikes, notably their high dollar bikes. I guess most of the money BD makes is on dealer incentives or bulk deals or something, if they continue to sell at 1/2 MSRP.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

nachomc said:


> Hint: he answered that question earlier in this thread.


O.K., I give up.

Which post did he *specifically* state that?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> No, it wouldn't ruin us. It would ruin those who keep trying to live by credit card though. And that is a good lesson, too late learned, should it ruin them.
> 
> The rest of us will simply make wiser choices, like, not making 13 different trips to various parts of town in the Hummer, buying something fuel efficient instead of penis enlarging, downsizing out of the ridiculous 5000 square foot "home", car pooling to work, or perhaps, I don't know, commuting by bike, yeah,that would suck, wouldn't it.
> 
> ...


I am sorry; but you have it upside down
WalMart would gain more cost advantage with higher fuel cost; and they would gain from shoppers doing 'one-stop' shopping, and they would gain from selling gas at discount at many of their locatios, and they would gain from everyone being more pressed for cash.

Look at it this way
Years ago importers like Trek, Fuji, Raleigh, and us paid about $8 a bike for Ocean freight; Walmart paid about $4 and had a $4 advantage on us. Now Ocean freight is close to $20 a bike and Walmart's advantage per bike is about $10. 
Then same ratio applies to ground transit - starting to add up especially for dealers like us that sell lots of beach cruisers where an extra $20 a bike is a big deal.

Plus with higher cost of driving, customers will have less money and need more discounts from places like WalMart - same thing has happened in last two years and been widely reported on - more 'higher' income shoppers showing up in WalMart

I really miss the kids biz we used to do; it was fun and profitable biz
and I love putting a kid on their first bike or even their thrid bike - they are so joyful
but now almost all that LBS kid biz is gone

You are right; WalMart prices will go up; but everyone elses will go up faster and more


----------



## San Marcos (Feb 9, 2011)

cda 455 said:


> O.K., I give up.
> 
> Which post did he *specifically* state that?


Here. In response to, "MendonCycleSmith, your shop sells bikes sourced from china, right?"



MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm a one man shop. I do sell a few bikes, yes. Less than most bike shops you know, to be honest. It's a very small segment of my business. Do I like that they are Chinese, no. I combat the nausea by offering bikes and brands that are US based. Many consumers see the value in that, others don't. The vast bulk of my business is service, be it bikes I've sold, other brands or shops and some specialty services.
> 
> The number one question I get when selling a bike is, where is it built? Can't help them with that decision there, but they are buying locally, and that, is the first step.
> 
> Sorry, I don't rattle that easily.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

waterdude said:


> What's the big deal? My cat pirouettes like Baryshnikov. I just didn't try to force my home-spun view of economics down his throat. That could be where you're going wrong.


hehe. +1


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

cda 455 said:


> You, sir; Go to the head of the class :thumbsup: !
> 
> Your post just summarized Business 101 AND Philosophy 101  !


haha, thank you. I am a Special Ed. teacher so I tend to have a 101 knowledge of a lot of things


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> I really do not understand; honestly
> You seem to think it is OK for pricepoint to set an MSRP
> and for Performance to show a 'regular' and sale price
> and for Trek to have some shops they own that display MSRP that they set and then dis**** from and so on.
> ...


I know what I can experience first hand. I've never seen a Trek owned Trek store. I do take issue with Pricepoint and Performance, but they're not here spamming the boards. Specialized does not sell bikes directly to the consumer, and bikes are what we are talking about.

I'm done here. My point is that your products can stand on their own for the prices you actually charge. Stop playing games with the pricing and half-true comparisons and you'll get a lot more respect.


----------



## Neela (Jan 4, 2010)

Should BD exist...sure....its a free country. Will I buy anything from them....heck no. They have the feel of a new york camera store or infomercial...

They clearly push the marketing envelope...never quite lying but leaving plenty of potential to be mislead...the categories, the way the words are stated...etc.

Let me give you a specific example:

"Customers have told us they have compared the Fantom Elite DS to $2,00-3,000+ bikes from Kona, Ellsworth, Trek and Specialized and those do NOT have all the features even at twice the price."

Another quote "Compare to $2500 Trek or Specialized" ...hmmmm let's try that

Yours: 
Rockshox TORA 302 fork with UTURN 85-130mm travel with LOCKOUT
RockShox Ario with LOCKOUT (up to 5" rear travel)
FSA AlphaDrive PowerDriveBB crank and sealed cartridge Bearing BB, LX or SLX pod shifters, XT derailleur and incredibly powerful competition grade AVID HYDRAULIC Disc brakes and levers.
PLUS - Ritchey Rizer Bar, Ritchey Comp Stem and Ritchey Seatpost.
PLUS - WTB Disc Rims PLUS Pro-level PanaRacer Tires

LBS bike

http://fisherbikes.com/bike/archivemodel/475

Twice the features? Really. Are you sure you don't mean half the features? Are you seriously telling me ANYONE would pick yours over the Gary Fisher Hifi Deluxe 29er? Really?

Now your one real argument might be "but the fisher costs $2K at your LBS while mine is on super duper sale", I'd say fair enough. It's a lot less bike for a lot less money. But don't try to con me into telling me I'm getting an amazing deal...you get what you pay for....Ask me to compare with other $1000 Treks, fine you'll come out looking okay, but ask me to compare AS YOU DO to $2500 bikes and you come off smelling like shiat...sorry but it's the truth.

What I am saying, frankly what a lot of your potential customers are saying is that we are turned off by what appear to be sleazy sales techniques. We would prefer to buy from someone who is more up front an honest. Frankly my guess is that you understand that there is a segment of the market that feels that way, but that market is more likely to buy from an LBS...your current marketing strategy works for another subset. Fine, it's your business...but don't be surprised if you feel like the ugly creature at the dance on these boards.


----------



## pwoods (Jul 22, 2010)

Neela said:


> Let me give you a specific example:
> 
> "Customers have told us they have compared the Fantom Elite DS to $2,00-3,000+ bikes from Kona, Ellsworth, Trek and Specialized and those do NOT have all the features even at twice the price."
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand...you're comparing a 2009 29er to a 2010 26er. You name the Tora fork when the web site lists the Recon. You compare the XT/XTR components on the Moto Fantom to the listed X.9 on the GF. Is this the comparison you intended?


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

pwoods said:


> I'm not sure I understand...you're comparing a 2009 29er to a 2010 26er. You name the Tora fork when the web site lists the Recon. You compare the XT/XTR components on the Moto Fantom to the listed X.9 on the GF. Is this the comparison you intended?


What's hard to understand? 
It's a solid 1400-1500$ bike (bikes direct) that they want you to compare to a far superior 2800$ brand name bike. Suggesting that their offering is in the same class as that 2800$ bike. The seriously inflated 3000$ msrp on bikes direct reinforces the advertising speak.


----------



## Straz85 (Mar 20, 2009)

pwoods said:


> I'm not sure I understand...you're comparing a 2009 29er to a 2010 26er. You name the Tora fork when the web site lists the Recon. You compare the XT/XTR components on the Moto Fantom to the listed X.9 on the GF. Is this the comparison you intended?


He's just pointing out that no large manufacturer (Specialized, Trek, Giant, Cannondale, etc) is going to have an MSRP as high as BD claims they will. My 2010 Fuel EX 8 retailed for ~2300 and had much better components than that BD bike in the link posted above. Sure, the shifters and derailleurs are 1 level lower on mine(XT/SLX vs. XT/XTR) but mine has a better fork, wheels, crank, BB and rear suspension design, among other things. I don't think many people on this forum will deny that those are more important than shifters/derailleurs.


----------



## Straz85 (Mar 20, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> It appears you do not care to do the work of researching before you question our business. However, do you post that pricepoint should not be able to list MSRP on their bikes? Have you posted that performance should not post 'regular price' and sale price on bikes they import under their own name? Do you complain that Trek has shops that they own where bikes are displayed with MSRP? Do you understand that Motobecanes, Gravity, etc are also sold by dealers besides us? Do you know that magazines and sites will not reveiw or list Motobecanes at our sale prices; they need an MSRP? You should be fair IMHO
> 
> BTW - Bikes we sell are no more 'hit and miss' on quality than any brand sold in a bike shop. In fact, as you probably know they are made by the same factories.


Stop trying to deflect. I'm sick of all your "they do it, why can't we?" crap. What are you, a child? "Mommy, he is eating a cookie, why can't I?"

Trek stores are franchises, not company owned. The owner of the LBS I go to was offered a franchise, he would have still been able to carry other brands, he just would have to have a certain percentage of his stock be Bontrager/Trek/GF. You know why he turned it down? Because HE would have had to front the money for the renovations Trek told him he needed to make first. He still would have been able to set whatever prices he wanted on the bikes.

My problem with you listing an MSRP on your bikes is that you make it up and it's no where near what is realistic in the rest of the industry. Perfect example in my above post.

I speak with my wallet, I will never be purchasing something from your company.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Straz85 said:


> Stop trying to deflect. I'm sick of all your "they do it, why can't we?" crap. *What are you, a child?* "Mommy, he is eating a cookie, why can't I?"
> 
> Trek stores are franchises, not company owned. The owner of the LBS I go to was offered a franchise, he would have still been able to carry other brands, he just would have to have a certain percentage of his stock be Bontrager/Trek/GF. You know why he turned it down? Because HE would have had to front the money for the renovations Trek told him he needed to make first. He still would have been able to set whatever prices he wanted on the bikes.
> 
> ...


:lol:

Your post sure does sound like you are.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

ratmonkey said:


> What's hard to understand?
> It's a solid 1400-1500$ bike (bikes direct) that they want you to compare to a far superior 2800$ brand name bike. Suggesting that their offering is in the same class as that 2800$ bike. The seriously inflated 3000$ msrp on bikes direct reinforces the advertising speak.


People like to make comparitions
and some do not like the ones we pick

When discussing if these are fair I learned a long time ago that on MTB forums I should talk about comparing Road Bikes - and on Road Bike forums compare mountain bikes.
Why? - less emotion - people can think more clearly

Take this bike: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_inferno.htm

we see an MSRP of $4999 - and a suggestion to compare to Trek or Specialized that is about $5700 -- IS THAT FAIR?

well look at price leader brands like FELT http://www.feltbicycles.com/USA/2011/Road/F-Series/F3.aspx at $5299 or JAMIS http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/road/xenith/11_xenithelite.html at $4600

I think the le Champion CF Inferno has a fair MSRP at $4999 and is a super deal at $2295 -- I really think when you strip out the emotion of looking at your niche area of interest and can veiw it objectively; it is hard to see what the problem is


----------



## Straz85 (Mar 20, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Your post sure does sound like you are.


Making a logical argument makes me sound like a child? Interesting, I'd like you to explain that one to me.


----------



## Straz85 (Mar 20, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> People like to make comparitions
> and some do not like the ones we pick
> 
> When discussing if these are fair I learned a long time ago that on MTB forums I should talk about comparing Road Bikes - and on Road Bike forums compare mountain bikes.
> ...


Carbon is a completely different animal, I don't know enough about it to compare, but you're right, those do seem more similar. Let's look at another aluminum bike:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/liberty_3.htm

Compared to my road bike, Scott Speedster S20:
Almost every component on mine is better, FULL 105 group compared to yours which is a mix of 105, Sora, Tiagra, Lasco (??), CStar (??). At $599 sure, it's a pretty good deal, but there's no way anyone would buy that if it actually cost $1300+, that's a ridiculous MSRP.

Anyway, what I'm saying is sure, you can find a couple bikes on your site that the MSRP is close, but I can find a ton that aren't realistic at all.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Straz85 said:


> .
> 
> Anyway, what I'm saying is sure, you can find a couple bikes on your site that the MSRP is close, but I can find a ton that aren't realistic at all.


Actually, I can find lots on our site that are very realistic and a few that some may think are a bit off. But the point is: each manufacturer has the right to set their own MSRP [of course, some people may look at a brand X made in China and compare to one of our models made in Taiwan bikes and say 'Hey that one looks high']

I saw a bike in a magazine the other day with a Di2 group and an MSRP over the cost of a NEW VW JETTA -- I really think the manufacturer had the right to set that MSRP just as VW had the right to set theirs

Pricepoint sets MSRP on SETTE; Performance sets 'regular price' on their house brand. why is our situation different?

I do not think I will bore everyone with 2 dozen links to bikes on our site with MSRP that are low compared to other brands - but it would be easy to do


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

Straz85 said:


> Carbon is a completely different animal, I don't know enough about it to compare, but you're right, those do seem more similar. Let's look at another aluminum bike:
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/liberty_3.htm
> 
> .


I am glad you see the CF bikes are fairly priced

Please look at this to compare to Liberty 3
http://www.trekbikes.com/au/en/bikes/road/1_series/15u/
The Trek is $1399 - of course it has the added benefit of
_Like Lance's bike, in aluminum.
Perfect for the passionate enthusiast or aluminum aficionado who seeks a Tour-tested, confident, comfortable ride._

No wonder someone thinks our MSRP is off and we are deceptive, when you can get a bike "like Lance's bike, in Aluminum" -- can you see why I think some of this outrage is misplaced and misguided?

I admit we have a problem with the Liberty 3 - we are sold out of 2 sizes; about to run out of the other 4 sizes and will not get more in until July. In fact, we will have to pull it from site completely by March to limit the questions on 'when will you get more'.
All Gravity Liberty models have sold way quicker than my forcast.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Well Dude, if by chance you happen to be able to find an ENGLISH Oxford dictionary, you just flip through it and you will find that Spelt is legit. It is also, as you noted a grain. 
Not sure if you're aware of it, but in the English language there are numerous words which although spelt the same have completely different meanings_ i.e._ _(just in case you don't know that either, it means, that is to say)_
SPELL - give in their correct sequence the letters that form a word.(verb (past and past participle spelled /speld/or chiefly British spelt /spelt/))
SPELL - a form of words used as a magical charm or incantation. 
SPELL - a short period of time



Garilia said:


> I was enjoying the last thread especially as I wanted to discuss the semantics and spelling of spelled/spelt (one is a pedagogy, the other is a grain) as they relate to smelled/smelt.
> 
> While you can spell spelt, you can also smell smelt (depending on whether you're talking about a fish or a metallurgical process will impact your olfactory sensation).


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> I am glad you see the CF bikes are fairly priced
> 
> Please look at this to compare to Liberty 3
> http://www.trekbikes.com/au/en/bikes/road/1_series/15u/
> ...


One more post.

Sure the Trek 1.5 costs $1399. In Australia. This is what I mean by half-truths. Try posting the real link: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/1_series/15/
The 1.5 has little things that your bike doesn't, FSA cranks instead of no name, SRAM cassette intead Sunrace, 31.8 bar and stem. The 1.5 is without a doubt a superior bike.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

blunderbuss said:


> One more post.
> 
> Sure the Trek 1.5 costs $1399. In Australia. This is what I mean by half-truths. Try posting the real link: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/1_series/15/
> The 1.5 has little things that your bike doesn't, FSA cranks instead of no name, SRAM cassette intead Sunrace, 31.8 bar and stem. The 1.5 is without a doubt a superior bike.


Actually
I am really sorry; this was an honest mistake
I had no idea I was on the OZ site; not even how I got there

But I see what you mean; the Trek has Bontrager Approved alloy rims, hubs, and tires; where the Gravity has those nasty Alex, Formula, Michelin items. I guess I should be surprised they sell out before I can get more. But maybe at $599 vs $1199 some customers are willing to live with Formula hubs and Michelin tires instead of Bontrager Approved.


----------



## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

SPAM. I will not be buying from Bikes Direct.


----------



## Blksocks (Dec 22, 2009)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> No, it wouldn't ruin us. It would ruin those who keep trying to live by credit card though. And that is a good lesson, too late learned, should it ruin them.


Actually, it would ruin us. Credit card or not.


----------



## TX-BoneDigger (Aug 24, 2007)

BD sells bicycles to people who want a good component package at a good price. I have no issues with that. WalMart sell items at a low price too. I have no issue with that.

I do prefer to buy bikes from my LBS because I tend to try and contribute to their business. They are friends of mine and know my name when I walk into the shop. However, buying online is not shameful in any way and can make for a significantly better deal than buying locally. You just have to figure out which is more important to you.

Something to think about:
1) In the beginnings of our great country, people sold goods primarily through face to face trade.
2) In the late 1700s the focus shifted to the "general store" concept. One store sold just about anything you could want, from pants to food to feed. This put the local traders out of business.
3) In the early-to-mid 1900s the focus shifted from general stores to more specific stores. Grocery stores, hardware stores, auto parts stores, etc. popped up in larger towns and then filed down to smaller towns. This put the general stores out of business.
4) In the mid-to-late 1900s larger retailers developed "Super" stores that once again sold just about anything you could want, and often at a lower price. WalMart, K-Mart., Target, etc. fall into this range. This made a huge impact on local specialty shops.
5) Now the internet has taken off and many people buy their items online where they can get goods cheaper and often avoid sales tax. Will this put the average large retail store out of business and further impact the specialty dealers? Maybe...

The moral of this story? The economy is always shifting. New ways to sell and new types of stores pop up on a somewhat routine basis. There is no shame in buying or selling online, any more than there is in buying and selling locally. It is certainly possible to establish a strong base of support for an online retailer. Speedgoat, Nashbar, Performance, etc. all have their avid shoppers.

BikesDirect is providing a service to a niche of people that desire what they sell: Decent frames mated to really good components. Do Moto and Dawes make a BETTER bike than Giant, Trek, etc.? No. Do they make an inferior bike? I don't think so, but that's just me. I don't think that MB or Dawes is on the cutting edge of innovation, but their designs generally work well enough.

There is something to be said for BD maybe not pushing themselves on the forum so much, but then it's one of the only advertising means they use. I have never purchased a bike from BD but because of this forum I am certainly aware of who they are. If I didn't live in Texas I probably would have already bought a bike from them. Because they are likewise in TX I would have to pay tax and that makes the deal not "quite as sweet."

Either way, they certainly have the right to post here, ask questions about their products, answer questions about their products, and basically just join the conversations. 

As with any other post; if you don't like it, move along to the next one.

Todd


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

*Don't hate the player, hate the game*

What bothers me is;

One, BD sells many bikes that are the same or are around the same pricepoint as pricepoint, jensonusa and others so why the hate directed toward only BD?

Two, why do people put handcrafted USA made locally bought bicycles on such a pedestal? Is the computer that you are currently b***thing on handcrafted, made in the USA, and locally bought from mom and pop? NO. Sure we have to pick and choose our battles, but when the only other thing in your house that meets your strict standards is your farmers market peanut butter maybe you should tone it down a bit.

Three, the good ol days have passed and gone. The player here is not the problem it's the game. So I suggest you all get rid of the internet. You shouldn't be supporting the thing that is causing the loss of your local stores. So cancel your internet subscription.

I fully support bikesdirect and what they do although I have never been a customer. And I always go to a favorite LBS first-if the part is too expensive or they need to order it, then I get it myself online.


----------



## jjmiller (Apr 24, 2009)

*Classless*

I hate to even partake in this discussion, but bikedirect's behavior is almost begging for it.

Personally, I think it's totally classless for a retailer/manufacturer to troll boards where their products are discussed. Lurking is one thing, but utilizing an established forum to pimp your merch under the guise of 'just another member' is disingenuous and tasteless.

You can say, "Most users know who I am and what I represent," but a new user would not. And that's the type of user you prey on. Somebody who may not know any better.

Thank dog Gary Fisher doesn't do this type of crap.

(And the whole 'they do it, why can't I?' thing isn't a legit reply to any of the challenges by people who posted above. Jeez. Is that what they teach in business school?)


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

LyNx said:


> Well Dude, if by chance you happen to be able to find an ENGLISH Oxford dictionary, you just flip through it and you will find that Spelt is legit. It is also, as you noted a grain.
> Not sure if you're aware of it, but in the English language there are numerous words which although spelt the same have completely different meanings_ i.e._ _(just in case you don't know that either, it means, that is to say)_
> SPELL - give in their correct sequence the letters that form a word.(verb (past and past participle spelled /speld/or *chiefly British* spelt /spelt/))
> SPELL - a form of words used as a magical charm or incantation.
> SPELL - a short period of time


Aaah, the old Oxford Dictionary, which means you spell using the King's English, so I will now have to add the letter U to a lot of words unnecessarily 

Thank you for coming over to this thread and finding my post and replying to it. I do like a good spelling debate. In fact I've had some women compliment me on what a cunning linguist I am. So I shall raise a pint of Spelt Ale to your good health. BTW, I tend to ignore Oxford and just go to dictionary.com.


----------



## Neela (Jan 4, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> People like to make comparitions
> and some do not like the ones we pick


Dude, are you dense or what? You keep saying "customers want this," "customers like this" etc." yet this board, full of the type of people you want to sell to, keeps telling you repeatedly that your marketing gives us the impression that you are sleazy, misleading and makes us LESS likely to buy from you. We're not saying your bikes are priced wrong, we just don't like your marketing. It raises the question, if you are willing to mislead me in marketing, how will you treat me in other situations, say stockout, returns, shipping issues etc.

You can tell us "tough shiat, it works for me so I keep doing it" but stop telling us that we shouldn't feel the way we do about it. You can bring lots of other examples of other companies who have deceptive marketing, yes its a tried and true tactic. Car salesman have the reputation they do because of such tactics, don't be surprised if many many mountain bikers intensely dislike your site, refrain to buy even reasonably priced merchandise and tell their noob friends to stay away from BD.

I want to buy stuff from people I like and respect. People with similar values to me. I won't buy a bike from some shady character on craigslist, but I will buy it from someone I've ridden with at TNGR. Your business strategy seems a mix, of con noobs and those penny pinchers who don't care that your marketing is shady. Fine. As I said before it's a free country, nothing you do is illegal, but this board is clearly telling you we don't like it. Take the advice or don't, but at least be self-aware of the impact of your marketing.


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

For those complaining about Chinese made bikes: Why don't you just buy the Chinese bike and then make a charitable donation to a frame builder.

You need a better argument than charity to buy a US made frame.

How about instead, you buy the Chinese frame, and then spend all the money you saved on OTHER US-produced products or services? That is how economics works, and everyone comes out ahead that way. You get more stuff for the same money. The Chinese guy is employed, and now China has dollars to spend on the global market, which'll be spent on thigs sold in dollars (largely US goods and services), and you've spurred new demand and economic growth in the US economy, and encourage others to start producing in the sector where there's more demand. The US still produces more manufactured goods than any other economy- it just tends to not be so much in the inexpensive consumer goods anymore. Think more big-ticket items like engines...airplanes...tooling...computer chips...things like that. It's called "comparitive advantage", and even if making EVERYTHING is cheaper in China, by us doing what we do best, and them doing what they do best, we all come out ahead by free trade. Here's a quick simple (and old) example...



> Lets say it takes less work to make cloth and wine in Portugal vs. Britian. Here's how they BOTH come out ahead by specializing and trading...
> 
> Unit labor costs
> 
> ...


As much as I'd like to see more US frame builders, if someone else is doing an equal job for cheaper, it's time to move on and discover the next big thing.

Regarding that, the real concern is in innovation. China and India are producing more engineers than we are.

I do agree that listing a fake MSRP that no bikes are ever sold at is a bit shady though, whether it's bikesdirect, Performance, etc. Trek is different because they actually sell a lot of bikes at MSRP. The number therefore actually means something.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

@dam said:


> The number therefore actually means something.


Yup, it means it will be longer time if I ever decide to get a Trek. Probably won't though.


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

Sure maybe the forum isn't a place to market but you can also look at how there is a real face to this company. 

At least I could shoot a PM over the owner of this company-much like the homegrown companies. Who would you PM for Specialized, or Trek, or Giant?


----------



## dust3313 (Sep 15, 2010)

Bikes direct puts really nice components on horrible frames. That is the problem most cyclist have with BD. The bikes especially the carbon road models have frame designs from ten years ago (and they are absolutely hideous). You don't do any R and D. You don't support the local cycling community like the big brands do through their local shops, you spam forums, you also don't have any pro level teams that cyclist like to follow. The only reason you are still in business is because newer cyclist who think they are getting a deal buy bikes from you even though you don't spec bikes much better than the big brands although your site says otherwise and really with the maintence involved with new bike you are really just cutting out the bike shop with no real savings to the end user.


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

jmmorath said:


> Sure maybe the forum isn't a place to market but you can also look at how there is a real face to this company.
> 
> At least I could shoot a PM over the owner of this company-much like the homegrown companies. Who would you PM for Specialized, or Trek, or Giant?


I have had one warranty issue with a bike. I made the LBS deal with it. They did.

Had they not:

There are employees from companies on these forums. I know there's a Specialized guy - he's in the Spec forum frequently (or was when I used to read it).

I'd call their warranty department.

Escalate if I had to to management.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Neela said:


> Dude, are you dense or what? You keep saying "customers want this," "customers like this" etc." yet this board, full of the type of people you want to sell to, keeps telling you repeatedly that your marketing gives us the impression that you are sleazy, misleading and makes us LESS likely to buy from you. We're not saying your bikes are priced wrong, we just don't like your marketing. It raises the question, if you are willing to mislead me in marketing, how will you treat me in other situations, say stockout, returns, shipping issues etc.
> 
> You can tell us "tough shiat, it works for me so I keep doing it" but stop telling us that we shouldn't feel the way we do about it. You can bring lots of other examples of other companies who have deceptive marketing, yes its a tried and true tactic. Car salesman have the reputation they do because of such tactics, don't be surprised if many many mountain bikers intensely dislike your site, refrain to buy even reasonably priced merchandise and tell their noob friends to stay away from BD.
> 
> I want to buy stuff from people I like and respect. People with similar values to me. I won't buy a bike from some shady character on craigslist, but I will buy it from someone I've ridden with at TNGR. Your business strategy seems a mix, of con noobs and those penny pinchers who don't care that your marketing is shady. Fine. As I said before it's a free country, nothing you do is illegal, but this board is clearly telling you we don't like it. Take the advice or don't, but at least be self-aware of the impact of your marketing.


Bikedirect is just shameless, try checking out the Fullsuspension line as mike is comparing his "Four Bar Rocker Arm" to Ellsworth ICT, and Specialized FSR that cost "Thousands More":nono: When asked before he said that his bike is lighter, that's the comparison, wtf? How does the suspension performance compare? Spare me the "It's made in the same place as big brand speech" It does not have the same performance is it. I don't care about HT/ road or CX, only FS it's not the same quality design. Respond to that not deflecting the answer to the non-suspension stuff.

If your product is so good it should sell itself at low price and low weight, there's no need to make the comparison to the big brands bike. Other online retailer list the MSRP and the discount to entice people to buy, they can shop around and compare price to the same component they are buying. Some retailers are selling component at higher price so that's the sale angle. BikeDirect is different it seems like the marketing strategy is "50% off twice the price mega sales" tactic. It's rich.

Why buy big brand when generic is just as good is ok, just don't go comparing them, let everyone else do it for you. If you want to compare to what pricepoint or performance bike do, then start selling your components and compete with them. Lame practice:nono:


----------



## CarolinaLL6 (Apr 12, 2010)

Pisgah said:


> I will not be buying from Bikes Direct.


I bought my 2nd Moto less than 4 hrs ago. 

Prior to this purchase I really looked around and price compared. For even money I usually ended up with lesser components, but I would get a mtbr forum-approved name. 

For similar components about a ~$200-300 price difference (and this didn't even take into consideration sales tax). I really wanted a GF, but my local shop thinks $100 off the msrp is a deal on a very limited selection of year old, odd-color or -sized bikes.


----------



## High Side (Apr 16, 2010)

I have no problem with BD. I am a capitalist. No one is forcing anyone to buy their products. I agree that the marketing is shady but I personally was smart enough to figure it out.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

Those that disagree with your inflated msrp also take issue with the sette products msrps as well. 

can't play that game and come out looking better.


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

WOW...............this thread must have hit a brick wall for how quickly it stopped.


----------



## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

mtnbikej said:


> WOW...............this thread must have hit a brick wall for how quickly it stopped.


Yah, but it was a decent lunch time perusal. Now to finish the day out and start a weekend.


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Straz85 said:


> Making a logical argument makes me sound like a child? Interesting, I'd like you to explain that one to me.


Your post where you were whining like a child and asking someone if they were a child, sounded like you were whining like a child







!


----------



## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> I'm out, this is like trying to teach ballet to cats.


I fully agree with you MCS. It's a shame our Federal Reserve, Treasury Department, and many other members of government are a bunch of lying scumbags who profit from outsourcing and inflated fuel prices.

Personally? I think the US should slowly increase taxes on imported goods, especially those goods made in Asia. As the cost to the consumer increases, people will be less likely to buy the product made overseas, and would look to domestic manufacturers. As big manufacturers realize that shipping costs and import taxes negate their profitability, they will look to developing manufacturing operations locally.

And for those cheap goods, we can promote their manufacture in Mexico. Increase job availability down there, shore up their infrastructure, and begin to rebuild our neighbors, who seem to need it the most. As we pour money into Mexico rather than China, our government would likely turn its attention southward to protect our investments and help clean up the country.

Cheap items made in Mexico, not China. Quality, local items made in USA. Domestic tax rates can be reduced due to increased rates paid by overseas manufacturers, and we all live happy. After, of course, Federal Income Tax is eliminated and replaced with a consumer tax.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Originally Posted by* jtmartino* 
After, of course, Federal Income Tax is eliminated and replaced with a consumer tax.

/\This.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Flat tax, get rid of stupid/useless regulations. Take out a few departments reduce gov to about 25% of what it is now. Soon Walmart bikes would be made in USA.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Yep, 10% is enough for God , it should be good enough for Government .


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Yep, 10% is enough for God , it should be good enough for Government .


10% would be a dream come true, the rate Gov is growing it would double in a few years.:madman: Soon 60 cent out of every dollars you earn would go to Gov, unless of course you are on welfare.:thumbsup:


----------



## efraguiluz (Aug 5, 2010)

wow all of these BD thread have been funny to read.
that being said 
as far as the MSRP discussion look at something like a Blu-ray movie that usually has an MSRP of about 30-40$ but someone can find cheaper at just about any store for a lot less then the MSRP. That's why I don't really pay attention to the MSRP from any vendor or manufacturer since I'll find it for a lower street value. 

Their advertising practices are what they are and look at them or ingore them.

I do agree with a post that mentioned that the retailers/ online shops should have there own spam forum where they can post demos,sales etc.but I see no reason why LBS could put their own spam in here as well. so it seems like its a win win for everyone involved

as far as the economics of all this. the US economy is currently more of a service industry than anything else since we don't produce a lot of raw materials or manufacture the final product. which is why the lack of education in this country is going to bite us in the rear sooner or later.


----------



## Shuteye (Dec 11, 2006)

Deleted because I have reason to doubt my memory.


----------



## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

Can you please display the page on BD which shows the ROC ATAC's? I wasn't aware that BD sold parts...


----------



## Shuteye (Dec 11, 2006)

getagrip said:


> Can you please display the page on BD which shows the ROC ATAC's? I wasn't aware that BD sold parts...


I have searched on line for the $109 ROC ATACS and cannot find them listed anymore ... so now I am left with doubt that it was the BD website that was responsible Thanks for the reality check, Getagrip. I am thankful it was not a strongly worded flame (which is not my nature); however, I posted an innacurate and unjust statement based on faulty memory. I want to man up and apologize to BD and to anyone who was influenced by my statement. Lesson learned on my part.


----------



## lamb (Sep 18, 2008)

I used to frequent some knife collecting forums, and this overseas production thing gets talked about lots there. The one thing that most people do not seem to comprehend is that "made in Taiwan" is really not a bad thing anymore. People just tend to lump this in with all "that made in china crap". Well, my understanding is that Taiwan is now a modern society that actually produces some nice stuff. They are also a friend to the US. Some really great US based companies have stuff produced there because yes it is somewhat cheaper, but they are also some pretty damn good craftsman. Far from junk. I think it is kind of ignorant to just lump manufacturing centers together as all being junk producers. It sucks that the US is losing a manufacturing foothold, but I dont think that is going to change.


----------



## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

This is an interesting thread. I can definately understand why some people have problems with Bikes Direct.

There are different theories people have about Bikes Direct. I'd say most theories out there are innacurate, but one forum member created a thread about a Windsor 29er he purchased at Bikes Direct. Turns out that his Windsor was a re-branded Fuji Tahoe 29er. See the thread here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=608433

Do I think that all Bikes Direct bikes are rebrands? No, I don't, but that is one example of how the Bikes Direct bikes are quality built bikes. No, they aren't perfect, as you will find that this particular owner experienced a few problems, but its very clear that overall, he is very happy with that bike. But what about bikes that are not rebranded?

Let's say you find something like Rock Shox forks on a "name brand" bicycle. Let's call that bike a Trek. Some people will say that Trek makes a pretty good product, and I agree. Those same people will say that Rock Shox makes a pretty good product. I agree with that as well. I would also think that the same model of Rock Shox will perform just as well on a Trek as on any other bike.

Well, many Bikes Direct bikes come equipped with Rock Shox, and these bikes are priced pretty darn competitively - much cheaper than what you would find at your local bike store. You will also find these same bikes equipped with Shimano Deore front and rear derailleurs, with decent rims and tires.

Some people reading this are thinking, "Of course, but what about the rest of the bike? Its crap". Well, maybe so. But here is what you are missing:

Take this same "crap" and throw it on a Trek or Specialized, and you can instantly add $200 to $300 in value to that bike. The simple truth of the matter is that many people would rather spend $700 on a Trek or Specialized, rather than a similarely equipped $350 Windsor, because "Windsor" sounds rather generic - how can it possibly be as good as a Trek or Specialized?

As others in this forum pointed out, I do agree that the "big names" in bikes do a lot more research on frame design and that kind of thing than Bikes Direct does. However, that does not mean the Bikes Direct bikes are bad quality, and it doesn't mean that someone who rides a Motobecane will fare any better or worse than someone who rides a Specialed to Trek. I do know that one of the eBay sellers, sprtymama, who sells Motobecanes and other bikes that Bikes Direct carries races the same kinds of bikes she sells, and I bet she finishes ahead of many people who ride brand name bikes twice as much as expensive as hers...

Some people believe that Bikes Direct has questionable advertising strategies, especially with the "list" price. Here is a question I'm going to throw at you - do you think your perception of your local bike store would change if they told you how much money they are making on each bike they sell you? Some people on this forum have suggested that local bikes stores charge a 50% markup.

Now, I'm not a bike store owner and I'm not in the business of manufacturing bikes so I don't know the exact numbers, but imagine if your local bike store disclosed everything about how much profit they are making on the bikes they sell you. What if the numbers looked something like this:

Cost of production: $250
What the bike store paid: $400
Your cost: $795!

Would you feel a little bit misled if you were paying TWICE AS MUCH as the bike store paid for it?

Like I said, I don't know what the exact numbers are, and there is nothing wrong with putting a markup on the price of a bike. Bike store owners have to pay their employees, pay for rent, insurance, and a whole lot of other things, not to mention provide a nice life for their families.

The point I want to make is that if you knew how much money bike stores pay for their bikes in relation to how much they sell them for, it would devalue their product, and you might actually WANT to buy a bike online instead, because you might feel they aren't being honest by withholding this information.

Now I do think some of the list prices of Bikes Direct bikes are a little inflated, and there are some ethical concerns about their "list" prices on bikes that never sell for those prices, well, at least that I'm aware of. Of course, I do understand why they do it, because technically, the "value" of many of their bikes is similar to the value of much more expensive name brand bikes, so to NOT show the list price potentially devalues their bikes, just as a local bike store would devalue the bikes they sell to you if they disclosed to you what they paid for it (and yes, I know, this rarely happens and I don't blame local bike store owners for not doing this, as this would be a stupid way to run a business).

Personally, I prefer when Bikes Direct uses the term "compare", such as when they compare their Motobecane 700 HT to "$1,000 Trek, Specialized MTB". Some will say that's not a valid comparison, but it would be extremely rare to see a similarely equipped Specialized or Trek selling at $499.95.

One last thing I want to say: I have not ordered from Bikes Direct, but I have done a lot of online research on their bikes. What I have found is that MOST people seem pretty happy with with the bikes thet purchased from Bikes Direct, while there are some people who had bad experiences, just as you will find with other companies.

Here is the stat that distubes me most, especially with members of the forum: 95% of the people who criticize their bikes have NEVER purchased one or taken one for a test ride. They have not been able to compare how a bike store bike that costs twice as much performs compared to a similarely equipped Bikes Direct bike. Most people who have ordered from Bikes Direct seem to be happy. Some have a reason to be disappointed, and rightfully so. Most people, however, won't put their money where their mouth is, so my challenge to you is to purchase a bike from Bikes Direct and find out how accurate your assessment really is. If you have a good experience, great. If you have a bad experience, I feel for you, but at least you will know from experience.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Decent write up. Some bits arguable for exaggeration favoring BD, but the general idea is there. I just want to say that the bike industry seems to be constantly reinventing itself to remain fresh and spending a ton of cash to market stuff, such as naming seemingly insignificant technology. It's bigger, so lets give it a cool name!

I'll give the industry credit that it's really filling in every niche so you can have a bike that's best for how you ride, what you ride, and how oddly shaped your body may be. No matter how much they tweak stuff though, they seemingly are not far from the tried and true classic designs. It may feel a little different, but I think more advances in innovation are in the componentry than the frame. People that are happy on old bikes may drool over new ones, but may not necessarily be happy on a new one, especially if they pick a bike not suited for their style and riding environment. If you know what you want and BD has something that fits the bill, why wouldn't you be interested in saving a lot of money or getting more bike for your cash?

BD offers all the latest components. Their XX Ti frame... just the gruppo itself retails for 2k and they're selling it with an super light wheelset, tires, ti frame, fork, and cockpit for 1k more. That's why people call the bikes parts hangers, since it's a nice package deal and they don't care about the frame. The frames have warranties, so they do stand behind the quality, and the geo mirrors the geo of some high quality offerings from other manufacturers like Trek. Of course, they ride differently, but is the difference worth paying a lot more? From what I gathered in this thread, even BD is started to add more niche categories which the big names haven't even ventured with yet.

It's getting to the point that it's a community thing, where great LBS which acted as a biking community center, which offered weekly rides are disappearing and BD is one to blame. There are people destroying trails with reckless riding who ride alone or with their reckless riding group and expecting others to fix it up, which the LBS group rides sometimes did. Lack of local events... blame BD. That biker on the road that's pissing off drivers--check the make of the bike as you pass. If it's Trek, no prob, but if it's Motobecane, OMG MUST POST ON MTBR or RBR! This is what happens when you buy online and skip the local dealer!

/sigh. haters should just take a chill pill and stop hating on everything. Try to be a bit more open and understanding of circumstances and recognize individualism and not try to stereotype a group.

haters gonna hate (watch through to the end and you'll get it):

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1566836164169&comments


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

I think what is being lost is that BD is not the typical retailer, there are no middle men in their purchasing, they purchase direct from the factory anf then sell direct to the customer, so how can they say MSRP, when in fact they should be comparing wholesale prices a distributor would get. Then the distributor needs to make something and he sells it to the shop, the shop is not there for charity and it makes something and hence the higher prices. BUT for those higher prices you get local support for the product, you get after sales tune ups and trouble shooting should your product develop a problem, if that happens with a BD bike as far as I've read they require you to ship the ENTIRE bike back to them and shipping is at you. 

So in reality, as everyone keeps saying he's full of $hit quoting MSRP, when in fact he should be quoting first cost prices from manufacturers direct and I can tell you, if you knew those, his prices wouldn't seem at all so fantastic and people would realise that relative to that cost he is also making a healthy margin on his sales..


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

LyNx said:


> I think what is being lost is that BD is not the typical retailer, there are no middle men in their purchasing, they purchase direct from the factory anf then sell direct to the customer, so how can they say MSRP, when in fact they should be comparing wholesale prices a distributor would get. Then the distributor needs to make something and he sells it to the shop, the shop is not there for charity and it makes something and hence the higher prices. BUT for those higher prices you get local support for the product, you get after sales tune ups and trouble shooting* should your product develop a problem, if that happens with a BD bike as far as I've read they require you to ship the ENTIRE bike back to them and shipping is at you. *So in reality, as everyone keeps saying he's full of $hit quoting MSRP, when in fact he should be quoting first cost prices from manufacturers direct and I can tell you, if you knew those, his prices wouldn't seem at all so fantastic and people would realise that relative to that cost he is also making a healthy margin on his sales..


The statement in bold above isnot true

All bikes can develop issues
We need to see the entire bike if there is a claimed frame defect especially if the customer wants us to do the frame swap [which we do for free on any frame defect - even though no bike warranty covers labor]

However, almost 99% of issues are not frame defects. Most are shipping damage; a few are defective parts; some are customer generated problems. Typical items, QRs, Shifters, brake rotor, wheels, tube, tire, -- NONE OF THESE REQUIRE SHIPPING A BIKE BACK AND FORTH.

So about 1 bike out of 200 every has an issue
About 1 issue out of 100 is a frame
So very few bikes ever get returned for frame swap; maybe a few a year

Chances of a typical customer ever needing to return their bike for inspection is so low that it hardly can be the basis for discussion. [and most cases are on CF bikes; as people are freaky about how & why CF gets cracks - this is true for all brands; many customers want CF but when their bike falls over and it hits a rock or a coffee table - they want it to act like Steel or Ti]

And might I say; a typical frame question goes more like the ONE and ONLY ONE we have had this year -- guy broke a rear tri on a FS bike; was it a defect? Well he had wrecked his bike a hundred times; as he was an off road rider. So without seeing it who knows? Could we have ask to get it back to inspect? Sure - that is the industry standard - but instead I called the guy and said 'do you know how to install a RR tri or do you have someone who does?' - He said yes; so we just mailed him a rear triangle and he was happy and it saved us the trouble of dealing with it. Simple.


----------



## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I think its pretty cool that this company actually has a mission. Tells me that its in business for the long haul. A lot of people I know have major problems about cheap stuff. Even if they are are actually teetering on bankruptcy due to most of the stuff they posses on credit. 

I dont actually own a bd bike. The closest ive gotten to seeing one was on a bike rack on the freeway. When i purchase on the net sight unseen, i rely on brand and seller reputation. Youre company is an unknown quantity. If youre company actually toured and gave demo days, i probably would consider one, if i liked it.


----------



## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

Wiithout looking at every post... did anyone bring up the fact that the USofA still has the largest manufacturing economy in the world and our workers are (by a large margin) the most productive on the planet.

As a percentage of GDP China is number one, in gross output we still kick thier ass.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

As a side note , the Chinese are now starting to see their jobs getting outsourced because of workers demands for better pay. Sound familiar?


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

getagrip said:


> Some people believe that Bikes Direct has questionable advertising strategies, especially with the "list" price. Here is a question I'm going to throw at you - do you think your perception of your local bike store would change if they told you how much money they are making on each bike they sell you? Some people on this forum have suggested that local bikes stores charge a 50% markup.
> 
> Now, I'm not a bike store owner and I'm not in the business of manufacturing bikes so I don't know the exact numbers, but imagine if your local bike store disclosed everything about how much profit they are making on the bikes they sell you. What if the numbers looked something like this:
> 
> ...


Margin on new bikes isn't anywhere near 50%.



> Personally, I prefer when Bikes Direct uses the term "compare", such as when they compare their Motobecane 700 HT to Some will say that's not a valid comparison, but it would be extremely rare to see a similarely equipped Specialized or Trek selling at $499.95.


The problem with the comparisons is that the information they give on the "$1,000 Trek, Specialized MTB" is often incorrect, the bikes are spec'd better than the one they're selling or they don't cost as much as they claim.



> Here is the stat that distubes me most, especially with members of the forum: 95% of the people who criticize their bikes have NEVER purchased one or taken one for a test ride. They have not been able to compare how a bike store bike that costs twice as much performs compared to a similarely equipped Bikes Direct bike.


Everything I've said regarding the quality of BD bikes comes from personal experience.

BD bikes are only a good value if you know how to do all the wrenching yourself, or have a good friend that does.


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

getagrip said:


> Take this same "crap" and throw it on a Trek or Specialized, and you can instantly add $200 to $300 in value to that bike. The simple truth of the matter is that many people would rather spend $700 on a Trek or Specialized, rather than a similarely equipped $350 Windsor, because "Windsor" sounds rather generic - how can it possibly be as good as a Trek or Specialized?
> 
> What the bike store paid: $400
> Your cost: $795!
> ...


Both of these points I quoted are well put.

While the original anger was about BD marketing practices on mtbr forums, people seem to forget what marketing has done to them to get them to reach for the Coca Cola instead of the Sams Club special when at the grocery store.

With your other point I quoted, you're right-and to add to that people hate *the idea* of BD bikes but not really the bikes themselves because they have never ridden one. It's called peripheral persuasion in psychology.

The fact is the vast majority of cyclists are regular people who go on lighter rides, do not race or drop off cliffs and can not afford to spend more on a boutique or top shelf bike than they can spend on their car. And they don't need to-it would be a waste of money to them. So BD is an excellent option for many people.


----------



## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

blunderbuss said:


> Margin on new bikes isn't anywhere near 50%.


That's what I've previously read on this forum, but perhaps that figure isn't accurate. After reading your statement, I did a little more research, and it looks like the typical number is closer to 25 - 40%, but in some cases as much as 50%. Here is one such thread that mentions that:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=223649

Of course, no one is mentioning the fact that the price is already marked up when the dealer buys it from the bike company.



> Everything I've said regarding the quality of BD bikes comes from personal experience.


Good. You are one of the few.



> BD bikes are only a good value if you know how to do all the wrenching yourself, or have a good friend that does.


Yes, and it shows one of the reasons why they sell their bikes at lower prices than bike shops can - because you are paying extra for the service.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

I like riding my Dawes Bullseye. I like the way it makes me feel. I'm going to go ride it right now.


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

blunderbuss said:


> Margin on new bikes isn't anywhere near 50%.
> 
> I do not like or care to support Performance Bikes but, I bought a GT sensor 2.0 which GT and Performance show an MSRP of $2499 for $1425. I also recieved 10% back in rebates. I am sure Performance made money so is the margin anywhere near 50%?How about Nashbar? they have the same price as Performance.I bought my first bike from BD and I felt I got a good deal.Maybe I was mistaken but I shopped around not on MSRP but on what was the bottom line.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

getagrip said:


> Here is the stat that distubes me most, especially with members of the forum: 95% of the people who criticize their bikes have NEVER purchased one or taken one for a test ride. They have not been able to compare how a bike store bike that costs twice as much performs compared to a similarely equipped Bikes Direct bike. Most people who have ordered from Bikes Direct seem to be happy. Some have a reason to be disappointed, and rightfully so. Most people, however, won't put their money where their mouth is, so my challenge to you is to purchase a bike from Bikes Direct and find out how accurate your assessment really is. If you have a good experience, great. If you have a bad experience, I feel for you, but at least you will know from experience.


If you are talking about road bike or hardtail I don't see any thing wrong with getting the bulk components package cheaper from BD, it's just untrue with Full suspension bike. I've ridden a few Motobecane FS designs when I came across one one our ride. It's just not a comparison to a Trek, or Specialized design.

Not all mountain bikers ride hardtail. You also don't need the latest and greatest suspension designs. There are many models and designs that still shine on the trail regardless of how old they are. Just because a bike is equipped with Rockshox Monach or Fox RP23 it does not mean that it would perform the same as the others that equipped with the same shock.

For the similar money they can build last year model Titus, Yeti, Cannondale, or used frame and get better trail performance. It's usually not the case because the customers may not have necessary knowledge about suspension, or how to put the frame together. For the people who knows their way around putting a bike together would know that the best valued bike is a used bike. Not even BD can match that, plus a 30lbs $1000 Giant Trance can out perform a 25lbs BD FS anyday on the trail, it's not and opinion it's a fact.

For those who are new and interested in getting a FS bike and don't know where to start, have a reasonable budget, and ok with used frame, feel free to PM me for questions. I'd help pointing you toward my bias opinion:thumbsup:


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> If you are talking about road bike or hardtail I don't see any thing wrong with getting the bulk components package cheaper from BD, it's just untrue with Full suspension bike. I've ridden a few Motobecane FS designs when I came across one one our ride. It's just not a comparison to a Trek, or Specialized design.
> 
> Not all mountain bikers ride hardtail. You also don't need the latest and greatest suspension designs. There are many models and designs that still shine on the trail regardless of how old they are. Just because a bike is equipped with Rockshox Monach or Fox RP23 it does not mean that it would perform the same as the others that equipped with the same shock.
> 
> ...


 FWIW my Trance X1 weighs 27 lbs .


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

AZ.MTNS said:


> FWIW my Trance X1 weighs 27 lbs .


Ya and it definitely pedal better than my 24lbs Moots Smoothie ti, because my 30lbs Reign pedal better.:thumbsup:


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> Ya and it definitely pedal better than my 24lbs Moots Smoothie ti, because my 30lbs Reign pedal better.:thumbsup:


Yeah , but no one is jealous over my Trance , your Moots on the other hand .


----------



## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> plus a 30lbs $1000 Giant Trance can out perform a 25lbs BD FS anyday on the trail, it's not and opinion it's a fact.:


There is a saying.... "it ain't the wand that does the tricks, it's the Magician"


----------



## greenpoise (Sep 17, 2007)

ouch!!!..I see alot of unfair business here...and IMHO, it is not coming from Bikes direct in any case it is against them...Either a bunch of people here are pro bikers or not, I just really dont know..I was at this forum as just a regular customer looking for answers and trying to learn the sport...I kept hearing the famous word your "LBS (Local bike shop if I am not mistaken)..well let me tell you, I went through more than 7 LBS even on different states, cities, you name it and no one NO ONE helped me more than Mike and Chris from Bikes Direct and the bike shop I ended up buying from (http://www.joyride-cycles.com/)..both transactions, ONLINE....Had I been living in the states, I would have ordered from BD in a heartbeat and not have to go through all the hassle of finding someone who was willing to sell me a bike locally!!! that never NEVER happened.....how BD wants to portray, sell, market, you name it, their products, I really dont care..I just care what they or any other shop sells, what they think would be a good fit when I tell them my needs/wants and how they take their time to explain to me what they think about what they carry, point of views etc etc... No warranty, thats up to me, the buyer....leave the hating out of this forum, it is kinda of unfair honestly...


----------



## MrRogers1935 (Jul 27, 2010)

*Don't get the animosity*

I'd love it if the CEO of specialized posted regularly on the spec forum. Not sure why so many feel the OP's presence on the forum is a nuisance/inappropriate.

That being said, the issue with an inflated MSRP is legit but honestly, who cares. Anyone with even a little general knowledge about bikes will see this as a marketing tactic. I myself have been real close to ordering from BD but ended up going local when an insane sale came up. I have thought about purchasing a BD bike to harvest components for a new build and may do so in the future. Give the guy a break.

Mrr


----------



## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

This, my friends, is the way of the future.


----------



## greenpoise (Sep 17, 2007)

lemme clarify (I dont think I used the right wording in my previous post), I have nothing against BD, nothing at all actually...and I dont think its practices are out of place..I love forums and when I dont like a practice from a business standpoint, I just move on and read other threads


----------



## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

MitchD said:


> blunderbuss said:
> 
> 
> > Margin on new bikes isn't anywhere near 50%.
> ...


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

sean salach said:


> MitchD said:
> 
> 
> > If you got it for $1000 less than MSRP, it was either a previous year's model, a demo bike, or a blem bike. If none of those was the case, then GT is falsely inflating the "MSRP" to make their dealers look better for selling it for significantly less. MSRP is a general guide for retailers. Most will be a little under, some at, some a little above, depending on location usually.
> ...


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Isn't GT made by Pacific , the same company that brought us the "Walgoose" ?


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Isn't GT made by Pacific , the same company that brought us the "Walgoose" ?


You forgot Cannondale,Schwinn,and Iron Horse.Please enlighten us how bad all of these are.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

MitchD said:


> You forgot Cannondale,Schwinn,and Iron Horse.Please enlighten us how bad all of these are.


Just a poor example , Pacific has not banked a lot of good will in the Karma bank so to speak . Schwinn and Iron Horse speak volumes of what Pacific has done , give them a chance with Cannondale , they have not had that much time to fuk it up .


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Just a poor example , Pacific has not banked a lot of good will in the Karma bank so to speak . Schwinn and Iron Horse speak volumes of what Pacific has done , give them a chance with Cannondale , they have not had that much time to fuk it up .


My examples were meant to show Dorel has two bike divisions,one for the mass merchandisers(Iron Horse and Schwinn) and one for the independent bike dealers(Cannondale and GT).Not trying to be a spokesperson for Dorel but in the couple of years since taking over GT and Cannondale they have released quite a few in my opinion very nice bikes.To me it looks like Dorel is improving the lineup of better bicycles.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

MitchD said:


> sean salach said:
> 
> 
> > Bought it in 2010, that years model.Not a demo unless the other 15 same bikes were demos also..Same thing for being a blem.At the time there were 4 online retailers selling for the same price with the disclaimer that they could not ship due to GT rules.I do not believe all 4 of those retailers were losing money also
> ...


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

Yep , Dorel hit one out of the park with this beauty ................


----------



## ChainChain (Sep 25, 2010)

I bought a single speed road bike from BD. It was 40% to 50% less than anything similar in the bike shop. I like my LBS and what not but not that much. The BD web site looks kinda shady but I couldn't be happier with the transaction or the product. If I end up getting a HT 29er I'll be definitely looking at BD. 

As to the MSRP, I think that anyone ought to know that MSRP is just a made up number in every industry. It has been used as a marketing tool for so long that anyone who puts faith in it is naive. In this way BD is no different than most retailers. And yes BD is is a retailer by definition because I could buy only 1 bike not a lot of 15.


----------



## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

floydlippencott said:


> Yep , Dorel hit one out of the park with this beauty ................


MMMMMMMMMMMM, 46 lbs. of F/S goodness .


----------



## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

I haven't read even close to half of the posts on this thread, but it's starting to interest me.

@bikesdirect- do you work for Bikes Direct?

Anyways, I think BD has some good deals. If I were to ever buy from them, though, I would only consider the singlespeed and fixed gear bikes. I work in a shop so the geared stuff isn't that great of a deal to me, but the singlespeed stuff is very tempting sometimes. Parts are up to par, and compatible with big name companies so if something breaks or wears out it is easy to replace/upgrade. Always wanted a SS 29'er and heavily considering buying a simple one and throwing on a set of disc brakes I have at home, just to see what SS 29'er is like without spending a lot.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

ChainChain said:


> I bought a single speed road bike from BD. It was 40% to 50% less than anything similar in the bike shop. I like my LBS and what not but not that much. The BD web site looks kinda shady but I couldn't be happier with the transaction or the product. If I end up getting a HT 29er I'll be definitely looking at BD.
> 
> As to the MSRP, I think that anyone ought to know that MSRP is just a made up number in every industry. It has been used as a marketing tool for so long that anyone who puts faith in it is naive. In this way BD is no different than most retailers. And yes BD is is a retailer by definition because I could buy only 1 bike not a lot of 15.


the only reason people think that msrp is a made up number is shady retailers that practice business like bikes direct.
in most industries msrp is pretty darn close to what you can expect to pay for something in a store, unless that store is selling with no margin to get you in there to buy other higher margin items along with your purchase.


----------



## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

ratmonkey said:


> the only reason people think that msrp is a made up number is shady retailers that practice business like bikes direct.
> in most industries msrp is pretty darn close to what you can expect to pay for something in a store, unless that store is selling with no margin to get you in there to buy other higher margin items along with your purchase.


I've never paid MSRP for a gun either. I've bought guns from many different shops/ dealers, and I wouldn't even consider shopping for, let alone buying a gun from a dealer listing at MSRP.


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

ratmonkey said:


> the only reason people think that msrp is a made up number is shady retailers that practice business like bikes direct.
> in most industries msrp is pretty darn close to what you can expect to pay for something in a store, unless that store is selling with no margin to get you in there to buy other higher margin items along with your purchase.


I do not pay MSRP for automobiles or Motorcycles or televisions.If you guys do well it is your money and your loss. President Obama thanks you for your sacrifice


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

You guys haven't seen some of the higher end stuff from Mongoose? The Teocali Super is a very nice bike and there are lower price points of the model which are very nice, often coming up under 1k for a solid FS. They have a few riders that really push them well too who like the bikes. I rode with Eric Carter a few weekends ago, but he was on a GT Force. There's another vid of a rider doing "freestyle trials" riding on the trails on the Teocali doing all sorts of amazing stuff. 



. GT has quite a lineup of quality full CF FS bikes that is going unnoticed, likely due to people thinking lowly of the brand name.

My point is, all the stereotyping that is forming to give someone a reputation/impression so people stay away without even giving them a chance (if negative) and coming to an understanding is not the way to live life. It's like people, if you can by outside appearances (and stereotypes based on them) there's actually a lot to like about many individuals which would defy what your initial impression or preconceived notions you had judging them by outwardly appearance.

There's so much misunderstanding in this thread that it's really pitiful and likely a huge burden to whoever chooses to try and correct it all. All the talk about quality, MSRP, non involvement in the sport, etc. has been incorrect in so many ways. Get your facts straight people. I'd post, but who'd listen to a nobody like me... if people google/wiki MSRP at least, I'm sure a lot of the pointless discussion on this topic could be trimmed.


----------



## ChainChain (Sep 25, 2010)

ratmonkey said:


> the only reason people think that msrp is a made up number is shady retailers that practice business like bikes direct.
> in most industries msrp is pretty darn close to what you can expect to pay for something in a store, unless that store is selling with no margin to get you in there to buy other higher margin items along with your purchase.


The reason that you are paying close to MSRP is because where you shop they follow the SUGGESTION of the manufacturer. Sometimes you pay less and sometimes you can pay more. The market determines sale price not the manufacturer and some manufactures have a better understanding of the market then others.


----------



## ChainChain (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't know why I bother to post. This whole thread is stupid and I'm stupid for getting sucked in to this pointless discussion.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

MitchD said:


> You forgot Cannondale,Schwinn,and Iron Horse.Please enlighten us how bad all of these are.


VW own Bugatti, it does not mean that Bugatti is the same as VW.

Swatch, you know that cheesy watches own many high end watch companies like Breguet, Bluncplain, Omega, Tiffiny&CO, ect it does not mean those companies have to make crappy watches as well.

MSRP is a number game, some got it right some just inflated. In the end the consumer set the price. A product can be priced at $1000 but if no one buys it at that price things gotta change in order for the company to stay in business. What's does it worth to the people may be $600 may be $300, who knows. If people willing to pay 7k for a Cannondale top of the line and they are back-ordered then it's worth that much. I'm willing to pay component plus $200-300 for a Motobecane because that what it's worth to me. The problem is they don't have full component group, it's more bits and pieces which does not worth as much.

I've paid full retail for plenty of stuffs because I choose to buy direct from the company or authorized dealer.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

mimi1885 has some good sense.

Regarding bikes made in China, I've seen some factory tours which look very professional and high tech (at least better than FoxConn conditions). Better than anything I've seen, say compared to Ford or even a boutique brand like Seven or ones local to me (Intense and Turner). Then again, I've seen some horror stories about factories that totally disregard worker health and the environment. Carbon dust being washed away unfiltered into the sea or pumped out airborne onto the streets...

Mike from BD sounds like a really good guy that loves bikes and wants to share his love for bikes. He doesn't sound like he wants to go cheap. Nothing he sells looks like it's disposable like Wal-Mart bikes; something you'd find abandoned in the woods, possibly broken. He visits the factories and I trust that he went with the best rather than one of those horror story factories. I'm pretty sure he donates to the sport as well. He's trying to be like a regular guy that loves bikes, not some guy out of some prestigious business school with a team of genius engineers to consult with that puts business first. He doesn't seem to be greedy either. On the other hand, some big names do and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had some of their bikes built in those horror story factories in China. All the bikes on BD I've looked at are made in Taiwan, which factories are supposedly much better in all aspects.


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

I wonder how many more sales BD got out of this thread?Everyone on here should get a thank you card


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> All the bikes on BD I've looked at are made in Taiwan, which factories are supposedly much better in all aspects.


All that "Made in Taiwan" means is that they have a rathole office in Taiwan so they do not have to put a made in China sticker on it .


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Despite the fact that I have argue with Mike in my posts in the past, the only issue I have with his practice is the products comparison, especially with big brand and only on Full suspension and may be some ti bikes but not so much.

Unless Mike is in denial, he should know that the FS he's comparing are not the same quality ride you'd get with other big brands, not because they are big brands but they actually do real R&D to stay competitive. So comparing his FS to those bike is just wrong.

Hardtail is another story, how much can you really screw up the proven geometry, he can and did play with design and geometry, put up bikes with given components and it's good to go. I don't doubt that it would ride well.

Let face it, majority of BD customers are new riders or less experience riders they don't have time to research about our steep learning curve sport especially components and compatibility. When he claim that this bike is compare to that big brand for less than half off, a lot actually bought that idea and start talking crap about big brand bike ripping off consumer by overpricing the products, its not the case.

He's clearly making the comparison to his benefit because he's not comparing the Diamondback, Jamis, or Mongoose FS bike, he goes for Ellsworth, Specialized, Trek, Gary Fisher because they are premium brand. That's the practice I'm disagreeing. It's a good outlet to but affordable bikes with decent components especially for the entry level, or racers on a tight budget.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

It's not good to generalize, mimi1885. If I were to generalize, I'd say a majority who buy from BD are buying their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or so-on non-walmart ($300+) bike and their first real bike originated from a LBS, but generalizations like this are meaningless for the most part. I'd relate that to the kid who can put together an entire bike and the guy with a $4k bike who doesn't know how to fix a flat, but then again, generalizations are meaningless.

Which ads compare to Ellsworth? I'm pretty sure Mike says compare to Trek, GFisher, Spec, etc. (Litespeed for Ti bikes) because he compared his bike to them and think they're worth comparing. He might have even researched bikes from those companies to provide input to his source to better design products for the US market.

Again, why are Diamondback, Jamis, and Mongoose treated so lowly? Because they don't have $5k+ bikes in their lineup?

People and their brand name fashion statement way of thinking... just because Specialized makes some high end bikes that ride well, doesn't mean their sub $1k or even sub $2k bikes are premium.

Prices are really going up. It's hitting the low end market kind of hard, I've noticed. Mike detailed quite a bit of the reasons for it earlier. Walk into a LBS and check out some low end bikes such as the 2011 Rockhopper and the price will really shock you for how inflated it is. A 26" hardtail with a suntour fork for over 720+tax?

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCProduct.jsp?spid=52809&scid=1000&scname=Mountain

vs

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fantom_comp_xi.htm

Same amount of money out of pocket... is the free tune up and labor for a short time that typically comes with a LBS bought bike worth the difference in price? I'm pretty sure if there are any issues with the bike and you e-mail BD customer support, they'd attempt to serve ya and reimburse some initial maintenance if you show a receipt from a LBS or something.


----------



## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

I just don't get all the *****ing about bIkes direct. Their business model sounds pretty good to me. "supply the best quality product to the consumer for the least amount of money"
So whats the problem?
1. BD guy is on the forums. 
Why is that a problem? Ultimately, it gives us(the consumer) direct acess to the company for questions and what not.
2. Someone said "list price"
How is listing a made up number on the website a problem? 
3. The ads? 
Who the f reads that ***** anyway! And prove they are ads. Im sure you can't.

Seriously, it's about the bikes. quit making up excuses to rationalize your big name brand purchase.

Sheepo


----------



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> Despite the fact that I have argue with Mike in my posts in the past, the only issue I have with his practice is the products comparison, especially with big brand and only on Full suspension and may be some ti bikes but not so much.
> 
> Unless Mike is in denial, he should know that the FS he's comparing are not the same quality ride you'd get with other big brands, not because they are big brands but they actually do real R&D to stay competitive. So comparing his FS to those bike is just wrong.
> 
> ...


Wow.

You sure insulted a lot of forum members here. Congratulations  .


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Varaxis said:


> It's not good to generalize, mimi1885. If I were to generalize, I'd say a majority who buy from BD are buying their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or so-on non-walmart ($300+) bike and their first real bike originated from a LBS, but generalizations like this are meaningless for the most part. I'd relate that to the kid who can put together an entire bike and the guy with a $4k bike who doesn't know how to fix a flat, but then again, generalizations are meaningless.
> 
> I agree, I'll try to me more specific, my bad I assumed people know:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


What's fair is fair I just call it what I see it.:thumbsup:


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

waterdude said:


> I've never paid MSRP for a gun either. I've bought guns from many different shops/ dealers, and I wouldn't even consider shopping for, let alone buying a gun from a dealer listing at MSRP.


Start shopping in the higher end markets then. I wouldn't pay msrp for a hipoint either.


----------



## pwoods (Jul 22, 2010)

Last summer when I bought my current bike from BD I was neither a new rider or inexperienced. I knew what level of rider I was and what level of bike I would be satisfied with. Perhaps I'm in the minority among BD shoppers...I have no way of knowing.

But, I also knew rather well what my money would get me from a LBS - I looked at quite a few within about 50 miles of my location. When I decided to make the purchase, it was based on value for my dollars.

People seem to often say something like: "I would only recommend buying from BD if you know how to do your own wrenching." Any LBS that would give a rider grief for bringing in a Moto/Dawes/Windsor/etc. isn't really showing a customer-oriented attitude, and I would not want to buy anything from such a store in the first place (bike, parts, or service).

I'd change that recommendation about BD to: "I would only recommend buying from BD [or any online retailer] if you know *very well* what frame, fork, wheels, and other components will let you have a consistently enjoyable experience as a rider...regardless of whether you do your own wrenching." This is what allowed me to make the decision to buy without being able to ride the actual bike. BTW - I do 97% of my own wrenching.

Beyond that...

...just ride, people. Just ride.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Sheepo5669 said:


> I just don't get all the *****ing about bIkes direct. Their business model sounds pretty good to me. "supply the best quality product to the consumer for the least amount of money"
> So whats the problem?
> 1. BD guy is on the forums.
> Why is that a problem? Ultimately, it gives us(the consumer) direct acess to the company for questions and what not.
> ...


BD guy is on the forum promoting his business, which is good for him. Prove? You want prove I just gave it to you on the post #162, now you are going to stick with who reads the ads anyways


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

cda 455 said:


> Wow.
> 
> You sure insulted a lot of forum members here. Congratulations  .


Like I stated earlier it's BD who made the comparison, I just pointed that out. There are tons of companies that he can compares the bikes to but only the higher price brand get compared, what's up with that, huh?

BD had insulted plenty of people who owns those brand he compared, I've read a few of those threads have you? how's that fair?


----------



## rockhopperss (Feb 21, 2011)

Bikes direct offers decent bikes at a decent price. I watch the trend of the major bike companies, and they are offering LESS quality for MORE price the past few years. 

The only thing I have with bikes direct is they need a proper assembly. Fine for me because I own the tools, most probably dont that want to save money. Even quality bikes need to be torn down and lubed proper and put back together good. My girlfriends Trek 7100wsd (great bike) had barely enough grease in the hubs to do anything. And she rode it 3 years before I decided it was time to tear everything apart and repack all loose bearings. I no longer coast down hills faster, I have to pedal now to keep up!

Buy what you want, I have eyed some of the bikes on BD. I don't need any though, and I had been close to a Dead Eye before building my Rockhopper SS...


----------



## waterdude (Jun 28, 2010)

ratmonkey said:


> Start shopping in the higher end markets then. I wouldn't pay msrp for a hipoint _either_.


You are correct (although you come off pretty presumptively) that higher end firearms are closer to MSRP in a lot of cases. I'm still not going to pay MSRP, and neither should you.


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

sasquatch rides a SS said:


> @bikesdirect- do you work for Bikes Direct?


I think he's an intern or something.


----------



## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

pwoods said:


> People seem to often say something like: "I would only recommend buying from BD if you know how to do your own wrenching." Any LBS that would give a rider grief for bringing in a Moto/Dawes/Windsor/etc. isn't really showing a customer-oriented attitude, and I would not want to buy anything from such a store in the first place (bike, parts, or service).


That's not it at all. Any shop that would give a customer "grief" about their bike choice must not care too much about making money. I have to work on department store bikes all the time- one of the worst parts of my job is gently explaining to those customers why their bikes will never function properly. As far as BD or any mail order/internet bikes, all bikes need proper assembly and maintenance. If you have to pay someone to do it for you (build and first year tune and random adjustments could total ~$150 depending on the shop), how good of a deal are you really getting?


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

I like my Motobecane Fly Ti. But recently I changed XTR cranks to E.13 SS, converting to 1x10, and had to face the BB. It was out a bit.

So, after two years of riding the snot out of it I found a flaw in the initial product I received.

I think the frame itself is better made then many prestigious brands. Definitely in the different league then most Chinese titanium on Ebay and elsewhere.

To the topic of this thread: this product is a good enough reason for bikesdirect to exist. Nobody does a comparable titanium hardtail for this price. Build kit is also quite good.


----------



## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

waterdude said:


> You are correct (although you come off pretty presumptively) that higher end firearms are closer to MSRP in a lot of cases. I'm still not going to pay MSRP, and neither should you.


Yep... those of us who own higher end stuff are little more used to paying closer to retail. The fact is that as prices increase, margins usually decrease. We're also used to receiving a higher level of service in most cases.

I paid the (very fair) asking price at my local gun shop (instead of the traveling circus show or Cheaper than Dirt..etc..) and I get awesome service, when I walk in if the place is busy the manager or owner usually comes out to take care of me and the wife etc. We are happy to be supporting the local business. So I just paid $15 more each for a pair of Beretta U22 Neos (fantastic pistols BTW).. I am paying for excellent service as well. Can I get a bit better price elsewhere? Most likely. Can I get a better value elsewhere? Nope.

I usually start a relationship off by telling the vendor "we're locals and we would really like to establish a long-term relationship with a quality local supplier. We're here today to give you the opportunity to earn our business not only today but in the future as well. Are you good with that?" Seems to work every time.. it is a non-threatening way to let a retailer know we're serious but not the typical "You better give me the cheapest price or I'm going down the street" or "come on man you've got to do better than that or I'm outta here"

Business goes where it is promoted... however it stays where it is serviced.


----------



## CarolinaLL6 (Apr 12, 2010)

STT GUY said:


> Yep... those of us who own higher end stuff are little more used to paying closer to retail. The fact is that as prices increase, margins usually decrease. We're also used to receiving a higher level of service in most cases.
> 
> I paid the (very fair) asking price at my local gun shop (instead of the traveling circus show or Cheaper than Dirt..etc..) and I get awesome service, when I walk in if the place is busy the manager or owner usually comes out to take care of me and the wife etc. We are happy to be supporting the local business. So I just paid $15 more each for a pair of Beretta U22 Neos (fantastic pistols BTW).. I am paying for excellent service as well. Can I get a bit better price elsewhere? Most likely. Can I get a better value elsewhere? Nope.


Your two para are incongruous. "those of us who own higher end stuff are little more used to paying closer to retail" and "So I just paid $15 more each for a pair of Beretta U22 Neos."
The Neo is a $375 msrp .22 plinking pistol. Not what one would consider "higher end stuff."

So are you saying you paid $15 more ea for an average, inexpensive plinker?
*Note I didn't say 'cheap'.*

Fwiw, firearms market is competitive and probably runs only up to 15% markup unless you are talking some hard to get, fotm weapon.


----------



## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

CarolinaLL6 said:


> So are you saying you paid $15 more ea for an average, inexpensive plinker?
> *Note I didn't say 'cheap'.*
> .


Nope... but the safe full of Sig, HK and Glock "might" be.:thumbsup:


----------



## CarolinaLL6 (Apr 12, 2010)

STT GUY said:


> Nope... but the safe full of Sig, HK and Glock "might" be.:thumbsup:


Glad to hear it, that's more like it. :thumbsup:

...And I've been thinking about picking up a .22 plinker, may have to expand my search outside of Ruger mkIII and Buckmarks to include Beretta.


----------



## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

Holy crap all of us are getting ripped off by the bike companies 5000 dollars for a bike wtf?
I can get a new atv for that price it cost nothing to manufacture a bicycle after the design is finished. Not to mention almost every major bicycle company is having the frames made overseas. FOX 1000 dollars for a fork wtf !! I just got a 2003 VW polo for my wife here in Europe in mint condition with like 24000 miles or 40000km for like 2500 euro less than my bike. BD keep up the good work we are getting raped by the bike companies. unfortunately we all love mountain biking and if we want our stuff to perform good and be reliable we must purchase the expensive stuff.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

steadite said:


> cheap chinese crap...wow, we need MORE of that!


BD bikes have components that rival that of major retailers. They undersell even wholesale prices from major bike manufacturers. From this it is VERY clear that the bike manufacturers are making very healthy margins on bikes.

You can further see this in Sette bikes. However, frame quality might be suspect and there is likely less warranty service involved. But I look at these bikes as bargain basement priced build kits shipped bolted to a cheap frame. Find a similar frame from a quality vendor and voila ... you have a really nice bike at a discount price.


----------



## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

jpeters said:


> . unfortunately we all love mountain biking and if we want our stuff to perform good and be reliable we must purchase the expensive stuff.


You're telling BD to keep up the good work but then you say this...I don't get the connection.


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> But I look at these bikes as bargain basement priced build kits shipped bolted to a cheap frame. find a similar frame from a quality vendor and voila!!!! you have a really nice bike at a discount price.


/\ This , the resale value of a BD frame proves this out . Just have a look on Evilbay .


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

Moustache rider said:


> I have no problem with Bikes Direct as simply an online seller of bicycles. I do have a problem with some of your marketing practices.
> 
> 1. Giving a "list price" that is just a meaningless made up number because bikes direct is the only seller of that particular product. The list price is whatever YOU are selling it for.
> 
> ...


Major bike brands are famous for paring higher level derailleurs with low level shifters. Bike Direct is hardly unique in this regard.


----------



## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

I think he's saying he can get good stuff for cheaper at Bikes Direct and still have room left over to buy a car with the money we've saved...


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

@dam said:


> You get more stuff for the same money. The Chinese guy is employed, and now China has dollars to spend on the global market, which'll be spent on thigs sold in dollars (largely US goods and services), and you've spurred new demand and economic growth in the US economy, and encourage others to start producing in the sector where there's more demand.


Well China certainly does buy Boeing aircraft, but the trade deficit does not lie. China does nothing to help the situation as they aggressively tariff US goods.

What you describe is not happening. China protects its markets and eats our lunch. Corporations cut their labor cost by 80% and drop the price by 10%. They get rich off laying people off and the result is a shrinking American middle class that is not mirrored by foreign consumer demand.

I'm sure your reading this, and shaking your head tut-tutting me in your most sardonic Ben Stein condescension. But this outsourcing free trade nonsense is feudalistic mumbo-jumbo that is just well funded by corporations. They know it's nonsense and really don't care because it benefits them. For you, your just a lemming adhering to a false religion that contradicts the post WWII liberal policies that had made the US the most dominant economic force in human history. And it further contradicts the tariff structure that Andrew Hamilton put into place to make the US a dominant manufacturer that could win WWII.

Take your smugness into a layed off town where people are working twice as much for half the wages they used to. Go tell them how great outsourcing and free trade is.

Finally, free trade policies destructive and treasonous to US economic security. We no longer own the means to protect ourselves and make decisions independent of a Chinese lifeline of supply. Our defense machinery is permeated with components manufactured in the far east on China's doorsteps. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned cold warriors who understood you don't trade with communists and fascists?


----------



## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

CarolinaLL6 said:


> Glad to hear it, that's more like it. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...And I've been thinking about picking up a .22 plinker, may have to expand my search outside of Ruger mkIII and Buckmarks to include Beretta.


The Ruger is IMO a better pistol, but the wife loves the Neo and in order to keep thigs "fair" we bought a pair so equipment is not an excuse.

You can chase a can up a hill and keep it hopping round after round with these little guys and it doesn't cost $100 an afternoon to go out and send a couple of hundred rounds down range.


----------



## OmaHaq (Jun 1, 2010)

I have purchased two things from BikesDirect...

1. Vuleta XRP Team 29er SuperLite Disc wheelset. 
2. A size 17 Phantom29 frame

The wheelset has well over 2000 miles on it. No issues... none. They are a little flexy but nothing out of the ordinary for a sub-1800gram wheelset. For $300 you can not beat them. These wheels live on my Lynskey (which I purchased used).

The Phantom29 frame I bought just last week. I built it into a commuter for a friend of mine. I've also built up the Access frame and the Razzo frame. Both are in the same price-range so I think they are comparable. Hands down, the Phantom29 is the burly'er of the three. Weight-wise it falls inbetween... about 4lb. For $175, I don't see how a person can go wrong. Biggest difference are the boxed chainstays and seatstays, as well as some nicer dropouts. 100% honest, I think that Fantom frame is far nicer than my old On One Inbred 29er.

Most people I know that ride are budget sensitive. I love riding with nice gear, but I buy as much used stuff as possible. I look for deals... So far so good for me with BikesDirect stuff.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

ratmonkey said:


> Start shopping in the higher end markets then. I wouldn't pay msrp for a hipoint either.


Ha, the 995 goes for 30 - 50% over MRSP if you can find one.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

mimi1885 said:


> 10% would be a dream come true, the rate Gov is growing it would double in a few years.:madman: Soon 60 cent out of every dollars you earn would go to Gov, unless of course you are on welfare.:thumbsup:


And by your powers of deduction a few years after that 120 cents out of every dollar would go to the government.

Bad statistics can be used to "prove" anything. Making sh*t up and owning the media can make a slim majority of people who aren't voter purged believe it.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

LyNx said:


> I think what is being lost is that BD is not the typical retailer, there are no middle men in their purchasing, they purchase direct from the factory anf then sell direct to the customer, so how can they say MSRP, when in fact they should be comparing wholesale prices a distributor would get. Then the distributor needs to make something and he sells it to the shop, the shop is not there for charity and it makes something and hence the higher prices. BUT for those higher prices you get local support for the product, you get after sales tune ups and trouble shooting should your product develop a problem, if that happens with a BD bike as far as I've read they require you to ship the ENTIRE bike back to them and shipping is at you.


First, let me say that I believe online bikes are a poor choice for folks new to the community. You really need to establish a relationship with an LBS to keep the bike in shape. That first purchase can go a long way and the little tuneups SHOULD be included with that bike purchase.

Back to LyNX, I believe this is a valid observation. However, I think the numbers really aren't supporting the overall claim. I've compared wholesale prices to Bikesdirect prices on hardtails and the BikesDirect is underselling the price that name brands are offering to their dealers.

Obviously there are marketing costs involved here. And for some buyers, they don't need that cost. Further, everyone who buys a boutique frame and builds their own bike from eBay or online parts dealers is effectively doing the same things as buying a complete bike online. The difference is that it's a cheaper build kit that comes ships with a disposable frame that is likely little different in quality from lower end hardtails from major brands.

Going one step further, I have read here and been told by LBS folks that they make just as much money on servicing others bikes than selling bikes. I know some shops won't fix Wal-Mart bikes and the advice that they give is good. In either case, the repair cost is offered as an example of why that consumer should upgrade to an LBS bike.

In this sense quality component online bikes presents a conundrum. The argument against Wal-Mart bikes is that they are pot-metal frames with crappy components (that nonetheless still bear the Shimano moniker). Operations like Pricepoint, Jenson, BikesDirect are offering good quality component builds. They just don't have any convenience in terms of service.

But fear not. When that bike requires upgrading and you need component xxx that is compatible, the online business may not make time for you. And you may not have the tool to install it. So there the LBS can profit again on ... service. This is exactly what online options are bad at. And if that frame breaks, then the LBS is there again with a whole catalog of options from Salsa, Surly from QBP (amongst others), and some very nice Origin8 options from J&B. And of course, there are options to buy name brand frames from the shop and do a rebuild.

Actually, if you look over at analogues from the car business, I think you will find similar practices. Most dealerships make more money turning over used cars then they do on sales of new cars. The new car then becomes trade-in bate for them to make money on the used car. And likewise, the new cars serve as a way to get buyers with less financing options on the lot and committed to buying, then they redirect the consumer to their used options.

Dealers who are making their business on high margins on new bikes likely are not going to appeal to someone in the market to do an online order. I've been in a lot of bike shops and they are not all in the same demographic regardless of there both selling bikes. They are in the same business about the same as they are competing against Wal-Mart. It is different, quality bikes and good maintenance service are not a commodity and if they don't realize this than they have trouble ahead. If the only thing they do is sell bikes, they will get mowed down by folks in the business of selling volume "as is".


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

AZ.MTNS said:


> As a side note , the Chinese are now starting to see their jobs getting outsourced because of workers demands for better pay. Sound familiar?


The argument is technically correct but practically BS. Factories on the coasts are now having to compete with factories farther inland preying on people who are even more desperately poor to export to people in developed countries who now have more choices because they experienced a similar cycle. It's not as if the inland Chinese factories are producing things to meet the needs of layed off workers in coastal china who were making $0.60 an hour with no overtime or benefits to begin with.

It's called the race to the bottom familiarize yourself with it. I call it corporate feudalism and it is fueled by the same heartless lack of public policy (regulation) for general welfare that produced the land based feudalism where a few people own everything and everybody else is a virtual slave.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> First, let me say that I believe online bikes are a poor choice for folks new to the community. You really need to establish a relationship with an LBS to keep the bike in shape. That first purchase can go a long way and the little tuneups SHOULD be included with that bike purchase.


Here's a thread I started about Local Bike Shops in my area:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=686441

So far in life i haven't found my cycling experience to be enriched by the local bike shops. My first bike was purchased by my dad at a Flea Market when I was 7. My dad was an airplane mechanic and one summer when I was on vacation, he modified and welded some vacuum cleaner tubes to make my bike into a modified chopper. Besides mowing neighborhood lawns and collecting the deposits on soda bottles, one of my first jobs was delivering newspapers. I became somewhat handy with a bike wrench, I became able to change out cranksets and lubricate crank bearings, as well as repair caliper brakes, hubs, and adjust derailleurs. I can wield a spoke wrench, but hardly have the patience for truing a wheel  Me and a friend down the street used to have a bit of our own bike boneyard for scavenging donor parts when we were teenagers.

I have mostly owned used or department store bikes. In 1985 I bought a Trek 300, and maintained it fine on my own until I sold it after 10 years.

In considering my future purchase of a road bike, I keep trying to give the LBS' a chance to earn my business, it's looking bleak.


----------



## Fuze911 (Aug 5, 2009)

I love bikesdirect and i recommend them to all of my friends looking to get into mountain biking. I own a Fantom29er that i got two years ago and i loved the bike! I ended up building a new bike using the frame from the Fantom29er and i love it and ride it as much as i can. Never had an issue with any transactions. Got two of my buddies that wanted to get into the sport to buy from BD and both of them couldn't be happier. Call me a WalMart supporter i guess, but if you buy the same bike somewhere else with a different sticker on it, it could easily be THOUSANDS more. Thus keeping people away from bikes and away from outdoors.


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> And by your powers of deduction a few years after that 120 cents out of every dollar would go to the government.
> 
> Bad statistics can be used to "prove" anything. Making sh*t up and owning the media can make a slim majority of people who aren't voter purged believe it.


EDIT: I deleted b/c it's way off topic and I shouldn't contribute to the thread hijack. But it was making fun of Regan, FYI.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> It's called the race to the bottom familiarize yourself with it. I call it corporate feudalism and it is fueled by the same heartless lack of public policy (regulation) for general welfare that produced the land based feudalism where a few people own everything and everybody else is a virtual slave.


Yep. Let's tax everybody and redistribute everything. Better yet, confiscate everything from stock holders by eminent domain. Most apparently nothing else had worked to improve living conditions of the working class. Average American and Chinese worker are worse off then they had been a century ago, and even before that. Really, capitalism did not give anybody anything since the middle ages.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> And by your powers of deduction a few years after that 120 cents out of every dollar would go to the government.


That's possible. They can confiscate a dollar and print another 20 cents. 

That deficit out there. Its almost as good as a hidden tax.


----------



## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

This thread is a mess. Just imagine all the PM's flying behind the scenes.


----------



## Garilia (Feb 13, 2011)

Mojo Troll said:


> This thread is a mess. Just imagine all the PM's flying behind the scenes.


I haven't received any, so I'm imagining none!

Perception is reality, and I hallucinate.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> And by your powers of deduction a few years after that 120 cents out of every dollar would go to the government.
> 
> Bad statistics can be used to "prove" anything. Making sh*t up and owning the media can make a slim majority of people who aren't voter purged believe it.


Think man think The economy is in the tank yet gov still thrive and spending, new budget is bigger than ever:madman:

I'd be more than happy to buy a bikedirect bikes than GovernmentDirect bikes any day.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

Axe said:


> Yep. Let's tax everybody and redistribute everything. Better yet, confiscate everything from stock holders by eminent domain. Most apparently nothing else had worked to improve living conditions of the working class. Average American and Chinese worker are worse off then they had been a century ago, and even before that. Really, capitalism did not give anybody anything since the middle ages.


This is fun, laughable, ridiculous hyperbole. Thank you for lightening the conversation. Unfortunately passes for intelligent discourse on Faux News. And when you here it from enough places, you know it came off the fax machine, onto right wing media, straight into peoples brains and out their mouths without any significant modification which is how I discern that it is thoughtless.



mimi1815 said:


> Think man think The economy is in the tank yet gov still thrive and spending, new budget is bigger than ever
> 
> .


Parse man parse. First, you have to take make sense of the actual numbers and remember a little bit of political history. This is what is so bad about right wing media, they have no memory for what they have said in the past that was so very wrong.

We were told that the Bush tax cuts would cause increased revenue, instead it fell and turned a record "Clinton" surplus into a record "Bush" deficit. This deficit was actually shielded from it's true magnitude by congressional Republicans staunchly insisting that the continued costs of wars be kept "off budget" and dealt with strictly in "emergency" supplemental expenditure bills, as if they really though the wars would be over in 3 months (like they said when they started the whole thing). This was of course, so when Democrats stupidly (in the name of fiscal responsibility) re-inserted war funding back into the budget (as well as other items like AMT and disaster response) they could point out the vast overnight discrepancy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/us/politics/20budget.html

Speaking of political memory, I recall all the talk about the "Clinton Deficit" in 2001. Well, the economic downturn. There is not talk of the "Bush Recession" nor of the final year of Bush budgets that carried into the Clinton administration.



> mimi1815]
> I'd be more than happy to buy a bikedirect bikes than GovernmentDirect bikes any day.


Well, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. We're back to the ridiculous hyperbole. But when you say it seriously, it becomes a straw man argument. And you may claim you are kidding, but I get the feeling you are "kidding on the square".

What you guys call socialism is economic policy that existed in the climate of the greatest period of economic expansion in human history. As the policies are taken away, deficits soar, the middle class shrinks ... and you guys call it progress.

http://zfacts.com/p/1195.html

Whatever happened to sound minded leaders like Dwight Eisenhower. ;-)


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

...


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> This is fun, laughable, ridiculous hyperbole. Thank you for lightening the conversation. Unfortunately passes for intelligent discourse on Faux News. And when you here it from enough places, you know it came off the fax machine, onto right wing media, straight into peoples brains and out their mouths without any significant modification which is how I discern that it is thoughtless.


I am not sure what you are arguing about. I have agreed with you completely.

Faux News? Never heard about that. I only listen to MSNBC. They will show those evil greedy corporations where they belong.


----------



## jpeters (Nov 19, 2010)

I love this thread not even sure what its about was it something about bicycles:skep:


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

Axe said:


> I am not sure what you are arguing about. I have agreed with you completely.
> 
> Faux News? Never heard about that. I only listen to MSNBC. They will show those evil greedy corporations where they belong.


You agree with the scarecrow 100%. He is in fact ... made of straw. I am not and am adherent to the general policies of tariff and taxation that accompanied the economic expansion from the end of WWII to 1980, which are not the policies you describe. But they did include a top tax rate of 95% for certain categories of income over certain thresholds which were not reinvested. Read here, the policies that preceded supply side economic theory and the laughable Laffer Curve.

...as NBC passes from the hands of a top defense contractor to an outspokenly conservative corporation. And in the process, fires their top talent on MSNBC (who I personally thought went a bit over the top). They fired Donahue in the run up to the Iraq war when he was critical of the operation. At the time ... Donahue was the top show on MSNBC.

Hey all this has nothing to do with bikes. But I think some folks get jilted when folks of certain persuasions feel free to inject their politics into everything and not expect a response. I would say the mods should feel to delete it all starting with the source. Keep your politics out of bikes, and I'll keep mine out.


----------



## thebikersam (Jan 13, 2011)

just going to say, love my Windsor Cliff 4700 :thumbsup:


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> Well China certainly does buy Boeing aircraft, but the trade deficit does not lie. China does nothing to help the situation as they aggressively tariff US goods.
> 
> What you describe is not happening. China protects its markets and eats our lunch. Corporations cut their labor cost by 80% and drop the price by 10%. They get rich off laying people off and the result is a shrinking American middle class that is not mirrored by foreign consumer demand.
> 
> ...


What...are you a mrecantilist or something? Whenever something can be produced more efficiently, people don't have to spend as much. Then they have more money, which creates more demand for NEW goods and services, increasing everyone's standard of living. This doesn't mean you'll be able to turn the same wrench on the same assembly line in the same town until you die though- people must adapat.

We're not a totally free-market though; there's still a lots of corportism, where corporations are able to purchase political favor to limit competition, decreasing everyone's standard of living. This is very anti-free-market.

What do you think China will do with all the dollars we spend? Stuff them in a mattress? They're worthless unless they do something with them. Unfortunately, our government wastes so much money that they've decided the best thing to do is lend the money back to us. What aught to happen though is our government balance it's budget, and then China goes out and has to spend that money on the market. Again- this is a government-caused problem.

The US post WWII prosperity was mainly based on three things. 1) Our industrial base still existed. It wasn't wiped out by the war, 2) We had great natural resources, 3) We had the world's freeest markets. They work. Just look at Hati vs. Dominican Republic, or N. vs. S. Korea, or Thailand vs. Cambodia, or pre-reform (practically feudal) China & India to post-reform China & India. The freeer the economy, the better things work and the more peace and prosperity can spread.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

@dam said:


>


I see as opposed to smug you went with creepy. This argument is old, tired and left over from the early 90s when I believed Clinton saying it. But at some point you have to look at the actual numbers and there effects or even reason beyond agricultural products and realize that the architects are about maximizing their profit as opposed to our collective employment.

Besides the lack oppressing wages, lack of benefits and virtually non-existent environmental laws, there is nothing "superior" about the "climate" of sewing underwear in southeast asia vs. North Carolina. In fact a lot of the manufacturing equipment was unbolted from the floors in the US, shipped overseas and installed there. Now you introduce a heavy shipping cost but that is negligible when you take into account that it is still legal to chain a child to a sewing machine there with inadequate lighting and no bathroom breaks.

It's certainly true that unethical businessmen will follow the path of the most evil profit making schemes. And in the process, they will drag men of business along as they cannot survive competing against cutthroats with no regard for human dignity and a singular dedication to foisting as much of their cost onto taxpayers and keeping whatever they get.

Natural trade based on respect between nations with similar labor and environmental standards is healthy. Policies that conditionally reduce tariffs when developing countries raise these standards are good are good. Trade with virtual slave labor nations is not good. We understood this while we were fighting the cold war. I don't care how many of their creepy musak propaganda tapes you show me.


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

(Note- I added text above my video)

Uhhh...yeah- EVERYONE is about maximizing their profit. Guess what you do with that profit: you spend or invest. Both create more jobs and higher living standards! It's not like they're lighting those profits on fire.

Slavery is not free market. Remember the "free" part- it's important. Working conditions in 3rd world countries do suck...but guess what: if those factory jobs weren't better than what the people were doing before, then THEY WOULDN'T DO IT. If they do do it, that means by buying their products and employing them, you've increased their standard of living (even if it still sucks compared to ours). By refusing to trade unless expensive conditions are met, you leave them stuck in the mud with no way to pull themselves up. Just look at the exploding middle-class in China, all due to them releasing their absolute stranglehold on market forces.

Foisting expenses on the taxpayer is wrong. What makes it possible? Is it the free market, or corportism and the government having too much power (to implement regulations and take money from you by force)?

You must be anti-tractor, since every tractor replaces thousands of hands tilling the soil, never mind that modern agriculture is what makes existence as anything but a subsistence farmer possible.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

*Go Boeing, at least someone benefits.*



@dam said:


> (Note- I added text above my video)
> 
> Uhhh...yeah- EVERYONE is about maximizing their profit. Guess what you do with that profit: you spend or invest. Both create more jobs and higher living standards! It's not like they're lighting those profits on fire.
> 
> ...


I think your obsessed on technical vs practical definitions. Slavery arises from a lack of regulation against slavery. The ultimate libertarian state lacks liberty because it allows a few unethical players to wrest control of all the resources who can then dictate prices and undermine the market forces. The irony of language is that it takes regulation to maintain free markets. But that irony only extends to language as history is replete with bad actors taking control of everything and offering nothing to everyone else.

Businesses in the US regularly externalize their costs through lucrative tax breaks, especially when it concerns placing of commercial activity. Once upon a time you would place manufacturing in transportation hubs for easy market access. Now manufacturers bargain with communities for the right to place a business. And in the process taxpayers (including ethical businesses) finance this cost.

As far as working conditions go, you do not increase the size of the global middle class by eliminating middle consumers in America and replacing them with poor consumers in southeast asia. In the meantime, the American worker is forced to take much lower paying options or take government assistance (which places a greater strain on the taxation base (including ethical businesses)). I'm 100% sure that peasant farming is hard and low wage. I'm also sure that the factories pay better. But these countries could achieve this ALL BY THEMSELVES with their own regulation that promotes the growth of a middle class instead export based growth which will eventually collapse along with the American middle class.

Listen @Dam, I understand your arguments and they are cleverly constructed, overly simplistic BS designed to convince us that it's OK for corporations to rob you and me of our standards of living. It's called the race to the bottom. And you are aiding it.

I'll tell you what. While your dredging up early 1990s corporate propaganda, why don't you be complete. Tell everybody about all the "technology & information" jobs that we were supposed to train for to replace the factory jobs. Then tell us about how we needed all those "technology & information" workers from overseas in the late 1990s. Then tell us how we needed so many of those "technology and information" jobs to migrate overseas in the early 2000s. Then tell Americans exactly what sector besides raw resource extraction, agriculture, movies, war machines and service America now has the "competitive edge" on. What role is the American citizen supposed to play in this battle of "efficiencies"?

Now the argument has shifted to tariffs will "drive up costs". That is the race to the bottom. Americans can't afford to employ one another because we're too damn poor. And we're too damn stupid to tax the only beneficiaries. And we're triply stupid because we are the only nation in the world that adheres to the this free trade crap.

China (the largest beneficiary) is happy to sell it's human chattle for cents on the hour to us. But they tariff the crap out of American goods. Oh yeah, and they do buy airplanes from Boeing. We have traded a bulk of the American manufacturing capacity so we can sell China a few airplanes. Wow that's stupid.


----------



## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

@dam said:


> What do you think China will do with all the dollars we spend? Stuff them in a mattress?


Actually, they're spending money on buying the US debt that the Fed creates by printing bills. And they're spending the money internally, on technological and military development.

It all boils down to being able to manufacture goods and services that other countries will buy. And that's impossible when US-based companies continue to outsource jobs to other countries, regardless of whether or not trade between those countries is free.

Per your video, there is nothing that the US can make that cannot someday be made by someone else overseas. We need to encourage companies to keep their manufacturing within our borders, whether by increasing tariffs on imported goods, or some other option.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> I think your obsessed on technical vs practical definitions. Slavery arises from a lack of regulation against slavery. The ultimate libertarian state lacks liberty because it allows a few unethical players to wrest control of all the resources who can then dictate prices and undermine the market forces. The irony of language is that it takes regulation to maintain free markets. But that irony only extends to language as history is replete with bad actors taking control of everything and offering nothing to everyone else.
> 
> Businesses in the US regularly externalize their costs through lucrative tax breaks, especially when it concerns placing of commercial activity. Once upon a time you would place manufacturing in transportation hubs for easy market access. Now manufacturers bargain with communities for the right to place a business. And in the process taxpayers (including ethical businesses) finance this cost.
> 
> ...


Prolix.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Actually, they're spending money on buying the US debt that the Fed creates by printing bills. And they're spending the money internally, on technological and military development.


Yep. And currently they are wasting it on massive stimulus infrastructure spending setting themselves up for a massive commercial real estate collapse, a-la Japan.

Remember how Japan was going to take over the US and the rest of the world about 20 something years ago with their superior manufacturing technology. They got two decades of stagnation, and all the spoils of the latest technology boom went to U.S.


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

jt: even if others are better at manufacturing everything, if we focus on what we're best and, and they focus on what they're best at (even if our best isn't as good), and then trade, we still come out ahead.

I found a little graph of what the race to the bottom looks like. Pretty terrifying...










Willt: Every complaint you had is based on political or violent coersion- not free markets.


----------



## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

@dam said:


> jt: even if others are better at manufacturing everything, if we focus on what we're best and, and they focus on what they're best at (even if our best isn't as good), and then trade, we still come out ahead.


I don't think that theory is accurate. It doesn't take into account that the average consumer would prefer to buy the item made in China because the quality is equivalent or better than an American-made good (due to larger manufacturing operations and budgets), but the price is less due to mass production.

Your video talks about how countries should stick to what they're good at making, but it ignorantly assumes that places like China will stick to their "assigned good," rather than also trying to make whatever it is that America is good at manufacturing. And they'll do it for cheaper, on a much larger scale.

Which is back to my original point. There is nothing that can be made in America that can't be made overseas with equivalent quality and lower price.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

@dam said:


> jt: even if others are better at manufacturing everything, if we focus on what we're best and, and they focus on what they're best at (even if our best isn't as good), and then trade, we still come out ahead.
> 
> I found a little graph of what the race to the bottom looks like. Pretty terrifying...
> 
> ...


That's one heck of a universal quantifier. Try proving all that. Friend, coercion is a natural state of an unregulated market. Sellers and buyers try to coerce each other into the best price and they will go to extraordinary means in order to achieve it. In such an environment, unethical players will dominate unless there is an external force of regulation to penalize unethical conduct.

In presenting your graph, you have constructed yet another straw man. There is no argument here against trade or capitalism regulated for ethical conduct and common welfare. Nor do I have any beef against technology and increased productivity. And as the world became more liberal we can see an increase in commerce and productivity.

But all that growth you cite happens after monarchists loose their "absolute freedom" and we see increases in GDP as democratic societies start tending to the general welfare directly. There is a particular uptick after WWII. That encompasses liberal taxation policies that are often labeled as "socialist" but really just penalize income that is taken rather than reinvested.

From 1980 to present roughly encompasses the time period I'm talking about. Which is a small portion of your graph and represents world GDP, not US GDP. Yes, their is continual exponential growth but this is hardly surprising given that we grow as a percentage and that is modeled mathematically as an exponential function. But how much for year and are their any trends in the change in growth.

https://www.tradingeconomics.com/ec...c8f_10.png&g=a90bf1cf8bf04651b926ed7cb1953984

I think you'll see the period from 1980 and the advent of Reaganomics/Free Trade we see on average declining "growth in growth".


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Your worldview is so backwards. Negotiation is NOT coercion! Coercion is "give me your money or I'll hit you with this bat". Negotiation is the process by which goods and services are exchanged, and allows the market to place a value on things, culminating in the most efficient use of resources. Negotiations lead to transactions, and transactions are voluntary and benefit both the buying and the selling parties. Both come out of the transaction better than they went in- they exchanged something they value less for something they value more; otherwise, they would not have engaged in the transaction. There's only one kind of transaction most people encounter that is coerced, under threat of violence: paying taxes.

You can you explain people gaining their freedom from monarchy as monarchs losing their freedom?

The point of the graph is poverty is on the fall. Nobody is racing to poverty. I know it's world GDP- that's the point. You can't race against yourself. The real reason for the climb in the graph is industrialization and the increase of free trade over mercantilist policies. Just look at how successful India has become sense getting rid of their most ridiculous socialist policies.

Your link is 404

Here's another Jacob Spinney video, came out a couple weeks ago, that addresses what coercion is.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> That's one heck of a universal quantifier. Try proving all that. Friend, coercion is a natural state of an unregulated market. Sellers and buyers try to coerce each other into the best price and they will go to extraordinary means in order to achieve it. In such an environment, unethical players will dominate unless there is an external force of regulation to penalize unethical conduct.
> 
> In presenting your graph, you have constructed yet another straw man. There is no argument here against trade or capitalism regulated for ethical conduct and common welfare. Nor do I have any beef against technology and increased productivity. And as the world became more liberal we can see an increase in commerce and productivity.
> 
> ...












Commies are funny. I was reading some posts here and had a flashback to "scientific communism" lectures at Moscow State U. I got an "A" by the way.


----------



## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

@dam said:


> Your worldview is so backwards. Negotiation is NOT coercion! Coercion is "give me your money or I'll hit you with this bat". Negotiation is the process by which goods and services are exchanged, and allows the market to place a value on things, culminating in the most efficient use of resources.


By all means, advertise your naivety to how market players behave and what they will do to maintain and extend superior market positions to stifle upstart innovative offerings.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Garilia said:


> Now, does made in the USA mean the raw materials were manufactured here, or that the raw materials were sourced from other places and simply assembled here?


It means that all the materials came from the USA.



Garilia said:


> Does it mean all component parts had to be assembled here?


That is when they label a product "Assembled in the USA of foreign and domestic parts"


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> By all means, advertise your naivety to how market players behave and what they will do to maintain and extend superior market positions to stifle upstart innovative offerings.


An inexpensive bike is an upstart innovative offering?I thought all bikesdirect was doing was selling bikes for a decent price and I now I find out they are overthrowing world governments and starving children in Mississippi and rising oil prices and God knows what else


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Further evidence of B.D.'s plot for world domination, the Pope receiving his new B.D. fixie .


----------



## xenon (Apr 16, 2007)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Further evidence of B.D.'s plot for world domination, the Pope receiving his new B.D. fixie .


Good for keeping celibacy.


----------



## Turtle01 (Sep 20, 2005)

Holly cccrrraaaappp Batman, this subject matter has been off topic from the second page I'd guess. Time to move it to the politics and economics bin IMO


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

My understanding of why there is such hate for Chinese made goods is that they fix their exchange rate to always be less than the dollar. How is this bad for the US economy? The problem is that China is a communist country. They believe in making their own products rather than buying from foreign countries (even if they have to steal the technology). Sure, they buy Boeing planes, Buicks, have Google, etc but overall they do not play on the same field. They are causing a huge imbalance by not letting their currency fluctuate as it should. How does this benefit China when their money is worth less than everyone else? They are placing an economic strain on the rest of the world. China has created such a deficit that they can now go in and purchase other countries resources for pretty much nothing. They are setting themselves up to be a new super power. As we speak China is actively trying to pursuede the world economy from the dollar over to the yen. Look at the socialist tactics that our own country is now trying to inflict on us so that the US can keep up. It is a no win game if we keep buying crap made from over there. You can try to justify your Wal-Mart shopping sprees but it doesn't matter because this is what is happening this is what is going on.


----------



## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

*no doubt*



Turtle01 said:


> Holly cccrrraaaappp Batman, this subject matter has been off topic from the second page I'd guess. Time to move it to the politics and economics bin IMO


Agreed, or PM's. Relax people.


----------



## rweakley (Sep 7, 2008)

Didn't get to the bottom of this thread, but I had to throw in my 2 pennies:
I'd bet 99 percent of people don't have as much money as they would like, and therefore don't have the luxury of being picky about where things are made. If it's a quality product at a price we can afford, we buy it.
In contrast to an earlier post, I'd rather live comfortably with affordable products than have few to no luxuries because I only buy expensive local products.
By the way this business model is called capitalism and it's not a problem. When wage demand is too high in one location you go where it is not so much. And these so called problematic Asian nations provide jobs here as well. Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Nissan...you get the point.
I thought long and hard about buying a BD or Sette bike. I only decided to go with upgrading my current frame because I can do so at around the same price (though the frame and brakes won't be as nice) and I absolutely LOVE the mechanics of working on my own bikes.
*steps down off soap box*


----------



## rweakley (Sep 7, 2008)

BTW I loved micro- and macro-economics in college, wish I could remember any of it!


----------



## getagrip (Mar 26, 2008)

Kinda funny how this thread has gone from Bikes Direct vs your local bike shop to guns to capitalism to outsourcing to the Pope to politics, and now back to bikes again. Let's try to leave it there...


----------



## Sheepo5669 (May 14, 2010)

> Didn't get to the bottom of this thread, but I had to throw in my 2 pennies:
> I'd bet 99 percent of people don't have as much money as they would like, and therefore don't have the luxury of being picky about where things are made. If it's a quality product at a price we can afford, we buy it.
> In contrast to an earlier post, I'd rather live comfortably with affordable products than have few to no luxuries because I only buy expensive local products.
> By the way this business model is called capitalism and it's not a problem. When wage demand is too high in one location you go where it is not so much. And these so called problematic Asian nations provide jobs here as well. Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Nissan...you get the point.
> ...


i like this guy


----------



## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

Bikesdirect is having an existential crisis already?? :lol:

Watch the experts on existentialism:


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> By all means, advertise your naivety to how market players behave and what they will do to maintain and extend superior market positions to stifle upstart innovative offerings.


The only way to continuely stifle competition is by lobby for government intervention, regulation, and special privledges. This is not free market. It does happen, I agree, but free markets is the solution- not the cause.

Lets say a company sells a commodity at a loss to take down an upstart competitor. All the competitors need do is buy all of this money losing product and resell it to take down the giant. Eventually, they'll bleed dry. In the mean time, consumers enjoy super-low prices.

If a company is acheiving near-monopoly status via free market means only, and not by regulation, the only way to maintain that monopoly is by offering the best product at the lowest price. If they don't, someone will want a piece of the action and step in to compete.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

@dam said:


> Lets say a company sells a commodity at a loss to take down an upstart competitor. All the competitors need do is buy all of this money losing product and resell it to take down the giant. Eventually, they'll bleed dry. In the mean time, consumers enjoy super-low prices.
> 
> If a company is acheiving near-monopoly status via free market means only, and not by regulation, the only way to maintain that monopoly is by offering the best product at the lowest price. If they don't, someone will want a piece of the action and step in to compete.


That is a bit of oversimplification. Free market does in fact break down when a single company approaches a monopoly. Good example would be a utility, that owns all the pipes, or a mining company, that owns rights all the known deposits. There is no feasible way for a competitor to break in or for customers to go somewhere else.

Plenty of places where monopoly laws are needed.


----------



## Drew69 (Aug 3, 2010)

I gave up caring where major manufacturers make their bikes when Cannondale was bought and moved production overseas.

Bikes direct allowed me to sample mountain biking, I started out as a roadie and I was curious to try mountain. Because I had $500 to spend I was able to get into mtb because of BD. That being said I want something nicer now that I'm hooked, I'm looking at on-one, another mail orderish company with made in Asia frames and components.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Drew69 said:


> I gave up caring where major manufacturers make their bikes when Cannondale was bought and moved production overseas.
> 
> Bikes direct allowed me to sample mountain biking, I started out as a roadie and I was curious to try mountain. Because I had $500 to spend I was able to get into mtb because of BD. That being said I want something nicer now that I'm hooked, I'm looking at on-one, another mail orderish company with made in Asia frames and components.


Why would you go to an online retailer when you were just starting to get into mountain biking? Wouldn't you want the expertise of a local bike shop to help you get fit to your bike? I have found that the prices at my local shop are not too far off that of BikesDirect. I bought my first bike for $100 more than you did but it came with lifetime tuneups.As far as the USA made thing goes... I actually contacted several bike manufacturers in an attempt to find a USA made bike because I always try to buy USA and I am very anal about it but there is nothing out there at a $600 budget unless you only want to buy a frame. This shocked the heck out of me! Now that I am hooked on MTB'ing I will spend the extra money for non-communist made products because even though they don't always look better I have found that they usually are built better. Buying from a communist country is not capitalism, BTW. China fixes their exchange rate as to always be lower than the dollar. It will always be cheaper and it is hurting our country in the long run. Can't afford much now? Wait another ten years.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Don't you have your own forum (Motobecane) to shill your stuff?

Seriously, you have no tact or taste.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Don't you have your own forum (Motobecane) to shill your stuff?
> 
> Seriously, you have no tact or taste.


Where in this thread have you seen any stuff related to Motobecane bikes?



FireLikeIYA said:


> Buying from a communist country is not capitalism, BTW. China fixes their exchange rate as to always be lower than the dollar. It will always be cheaper and it is hurting our country in the long run. Can't afford much now? Wait another ten years.


What does that have to do with bikesdirect? IIRC, they buy from Taiwan, which is happily capitalist, and does not play the exchange games. At least that's where my Fly ti was welded. Components seems to be of Malaysia and Japan origin. Not sure where the Ritchey bits and Kenda tires are made though.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Axe said:


> Where in this thread have you seen any stuff related to Motobecane bikes?


Is this a serious question?:skep: No, it can't be. Surely you must know SOMETHING about Bikesdirect and Motobecane.

Point is, the guy already has a board on mtbr, why is he pushing his stuff everywhere else? Do you know what a mess these boards would be if every bike company starting doing this? I am not even sure why MTBR still lets him SPAM like this. Must be kicking down some good funding.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Axe said:


> What does that have to do with bikesdirect? IIRC, they buy from Taiwan, which is happily capitalist, and does not play the exchange games. At least that's where my Fly ti was welded. Components seems to be of Malaysia and Japan origin. Not sure where the Ritchey bits and Kenda tires are made though.


Sorry, maybe I am just ranting. There is a lot of anti-chinese rhetoric in this thread so I added my 2 cents. I do believe that most of the aluminum frames are made in China which does play the currency game. Thank you for the correction about Tawain.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

kapusta said:


> I am not even sure why MTBR still lets him SPAM like this. Must be kicking down some good funding.


And why not? He is a legitimate and well established manufacturer of popular bikes, I know that as I ride Fly Ti, he spends advertising dollars on this private message board, and most of the flame wars I have seen about his business model are not of his doing. The only fault I see with him is that he actually tries to respond to some rants.

This particular thread is amusing to me, and properly positioned to "general discussion". You did not have to read it.


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

kapusta said:


> Don't you have your own forum (Motobecane) to shill your stuff?
> 
> Seriously, you have no tact or taste.


2 Weeks after this thread is started, that is all you could come up with? 

Re-read the OP's first post....you will see why this thread was started. :thumbsup:


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mtnbikej said:


> 2 Weeks after this thread is started, that is all you could come up with?
> 
> Re-read the OP's first post....you will see why this thread was started. :thumbsup:


Yes, I read it. It was started because someone said something he knew was a joke, but he could not pass up the opportunity to exploit the situation to post more SPAM.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Yes, I read it. It was started because someone said something he knew was a joke, but he could not pass up the opportunity to exploit the situation to post more SPAM.


U Mad?


----------



## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

Axe said:


> And why not? He is a legitimate and well established manufacturer of popular bikes, I know that as I ride Fly Ti, he spends advertising dollars on this private message board, and most of the flame wars I have seen about his business model are not of his doing. The only fault I see with him is that he actually tries to respond to some rants.
> 
> This particular thread is amusing to me, and properly positioned to "general discussion". You did not have to read it.


He doesn't manufacture anything.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> He doesn't manufacture anything.


Sure he does. Just like pretty much everybody else in the business.

It is his spec and his logo. Demanding that it must involve grabbing the welding torch is preposterous.

Can you buy Fly Ti frame anywhere else? Its a very nice frame.


----------



## philb3131 (Nov 18, 2008)

What does Viktor Frankl have to say about this??


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

philb3131 said:


> What does Viktor Frankl have to say about this??


Probably this,

Fear may come true that which one is afraid of.


----------



## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

Axe said:


> Sure he does. Just like pretty much everybody else in the business.
> 
> It is his spec and his logo. Demanding that it must involve grabbing the welding torch is preposterous.
> 
> Can you buy Fly Ti frame anywhere else? Its a very nice frame.


Its not Aprils fools yet :thumbsup:


----------



## kon5t (Feb 23, 2011)

blunderbuss said:


> That's not it at all. Any shop that would give a customer "grief" about their bike choice must not care too much about making money. I have to work on department store bikes all the time- one of the worst parts of my job is gently explaining to those customers why their bikes will never function properly. As far as BD or any mail order/internet bikes, all bikes need proper assembly and maintenance. If you have to pay someone to do it for you (build and first year tune and random adjustments could total ~$150 depending on the shop), how good of a deal are you really getting?


I can tell you how good a deal I am getting, when I price the parts of my bike, i come to 2700$ via the cheapest sources available (ebay, mail order, LBS, etc), close to 3k from even the most understanding LBS, in complete bike form, from any of the major manufacturers. I actually paid 1500, this leaves a difference of 1500$ which needs to be covered by the LBS in terms of service, that is an awful lot of service....

Or if i take your example above, about 10 years of service and tune ups depending on shop.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

kon5t said:


> I can tell you how good a deal I am getting, when I price the parts of my bike, i come to 2700$ via the cheapest sources available (ebay, mail order, LBS, etc), close to 3k from even the most understanding LBS, in complete bike form, from any of the major manufacturers. I actually paid 1500, this leaves a difference of 1500$ which needs to be covered by the LBS in terms of service, that is an awful lot of service....
> 
> Or if i take your example above, about 10 years of service and tune ups depending on shop.


What bike and components are you talking about? It's interesting, have you account for shipping already? I know that there's good deals if you can spend the time looking for them. My next trip to Asia I can pick up XTR-d groupo with wheel for less than half of US price, but how many time can I do this?:thumbsup:


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Its not Aprils fools yet :thumbsup:


Profound comment.

_Tube Installation - $10 Each
_

April fools?


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> My next trip to Asia I can pick up XTR-d groupo with wheel for less than half of US price, but how many time can I do this?:thumbsup:


Ebay?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Don't you have your own forum (Motobecane) to shill your stuff?
> 
> Seriously, you have no tact or taste.


If you saw how I dressed you might REALLY think I have no taste

However, I did not start this thread in this forum
It was started in the 29er forum as a joke as a response to post by another moderator

And then the thread got moved - why was it moved here? I have no idea

But it sure has turned out to be interesting


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

FireLikeIYA said:


> I bought my first bike for $100 more than you did but it came with lifetime tuneups.


If they paid me $100 per year, I would not want to waste my time getting my bike to any local store for a "tune-up". Faster to do it yourself then driving back and forth.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> ...I did not start this thread in this forum
> It was started in the 29er forum as a joke as a response to post by another moderator
> 
> And then the thread got moved - why was it moved here? I have no idea


To put the turd in the pocket, as it were, of another moderator 

Mike, I like your stuff and the way you do biz is fine by me. I am actually intelligent enough to shop and price compare bike-for-bike and component-for-component. I don't feel "duped" or misled by any pricing strategy and I'd guess about 99 and 44/100% of your customers are in the same boat although many here try to paint them different. Your business gets many folks out on trails who might think they have to settle for a dept store bike to try the sport out. These same folks often learn to wrench their own equipment, learning a valuable skill and further saving the Benjamins. Then, many discover your stuff is really decent and durable for the price, they get pretty good at riding, and that BD has models/components that can be upgrades as the sickness takes hold. I hope you live long and prosper.


----------



## kon5t (Feb 23, 2011)

mimi1885 said:


> What bike and components are you talking about? It's interesting, have you account for shipping already? I know that there's good deals if you can spend the time looking for them. My next trip to Asia I can pick up XTR-d groupo with wheel for less than half of US price, but how many time can I do this?:thumbsup:


yeah it was all the parts I could find on either via ebay or the cheapest online bike stores other than BI and BD, including shipping. Obviously I also compared actual bikes with the locals, but even last years came nowhere near that price. the bike i ended up buying was the fantom 29er pro sl, pleased so far, and can't really see that changing anytime soon......

Fact is guys, we live in a changing world, business models change all the time. You won't remember when the automobile became fashionable, but what do you think happened to all the blacksmiths, horse vets and other supporting industries?

we now live in the information age, people have to adjust their business model accordingly, there is a place for the lbs, I am sure, is it in exactly the same role as it was previously? no definitely not, I don't know what the future holds, but I am pretty certain that there will be a shift towards service, with supplemental sales, as opposed to the other way round.


----------



## markaitch (Feb 17, 2010)

wow...this thing is still around? when it disappeared from 29er forum i figured it got rightfully trashed.

well, one thing you have got to say for bikesdirect guy is that he is a marketing genius!

he turned his opening post of this monstrosity of a thread in which he innocently(?) proposed a gentlemanly discussion re his company's existential nature into a sales pitch about his mini velos & dutch-style bikes. but quite likely due to his nature as a hard-core marketer just about everything he posts is far from 100% truthful. check-out his recent post:


bikesdirect said:


> However, I did not start this thread in this forum
> It was started in the 29er forum as a joke as a response to post by another moderator
> 
> And then the thread got moved - why was it moved here? I have no idea
> ...


it seems innocuous enough, doesn't it? but the fact of the matter is that statement is completely untrue. this thread was not started, he started it! early on bd was directly told the reason this blatant self-promotion was moved! 


Vecsus said:


> wow. BD took my joke and ran with it. However, there is no 29er connection here so I am moving this soon-to-be train wreck to the general forum. Let the masses decide.


yeah, it may seem a small matter but it is indicative of how the bd guy is constantly spinning, dodging, weaving & sleazing thru the mtbr forums. if you do not mind purchasing your bike from & supporting a business that is sheisty & underhanded...i wish you the best of luck & hope it works out well for you!


----------



## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

Time for my tinfoil hat, I think he can read my mind.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

markaitch said:


> if you do not mind purchasing your bike from & supporting a business that is sheisty & underhanded...i wish you the best of luck & hope it works out well for you!


Oh, it's working out great for me. Oh, oh, I shop at Walmart, too. Save, on average, about a Benjamin a month on groceries over other retailers.

I don't know how I sleep at night.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

markaitch said:


> wow...this thing is still around? when it disappeared from 29er forum i figured it got rightfully trashed.


Yet you could not resist barging in with some more whine.



bikesdirect said:


> However, I did not start this thread in *this* forum





markaitch said:


> his thread was not started, he started it!


You have some serious reading comprehension problems in addition to your anger issues. Mike have stated that he did not start the thread in the *general* forum were we are now.



markaitch said:


> if you do not mind purchasing your bike from & supporting a business that is sheisty & underhanded...i wish you the best of luck & hope it works out well for you!


Thank you, it did work out quite well for me. I am riding my Fly Ti for the second year and for the money saved got myself another bike at that time.

Sheisty and underhanded? Seriously?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Axe said:


> And why not? He is a legitimate and well established manufacturer of popular bikes, .


That is irrelevant. SPAM is SPAM, and if every legitimate and well established bike-related company started SPAMing, these boards would be a mess.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

kapusta said:


> these boards would be a mess.


Like they're not already?


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Malibu412 said:


> Like they're not already?


I think this forum is just fine.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Malibu412 said:


> Like they're not already?


There are varying degrees of "mess".


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

kapusta said:


> There are varying degrees of "mess".


So, what degree of "mess" are we in when Dave Turner stops by to speak of his latest plan or Chris Canfield responds to a question about the Yelli? Why do some here feel they get to determine the appropriate degree of "mess" and criticize those they determine are not matching up while kissing up to the cool people in the biz?

The way I understand the definition of SPAM is it is using electronic media to send unsolicited bulk messages. In other words, you have no control over whether or not you receive spam (filters can help, I s'pose). What Mike is doing is not spam. You can actually choose not to open his threads or not read his posts within threads. Or you can open and read. I choose to open and read because I am interested in his opinions, his descriptions of plans, and like what his company offers. Alternatively, many open and read so they have something more to b!tch about and somehow elevate themselves over...something.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Malibu412 said:


> So, what degree of "mess" are we in when Dave Turner stops by to speak of his latest plan or Chris Canfield responds to a question about the Yelli? Why do some here feel they get to determine the appropriate degree of "mess" and criticize those they determine are not matching up while kissing up to the cool people in the biz?


OK you got me, that was a pretty good point:thumbsup: But I think that only happen in their forum no? I've not seen them out side their forum much. DW is the only one that I see floating around Pivot, Ibis, and Turner. If this is Motobecane I'd think it's ok. I've never seen Jeff Steber posting out side Intense Forum except for the letter he posted on the Spider review page.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> OK you got me, that was a pretty good point:thumbsup: But I think that only happen in their forum no? I've not seen them out side their forum much. DW is the only one that I see floating around Pivot, Ibis, and Turner. If this is Motobecane I'd think it's ok. I've never seen Jeff Steber posting out side Intense Forum except for the letter he posted on the Spider review page.


Brant from Ragley often stops by All Mountain. He is welcome.


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

mimi1885 said:


> OK you got me, that was a pretty good point:thumbsup: But I think that only happen in their forum no? I've not seen them out side their forum much. DW is the only one that I see floating around Pivot, Ibis, and Turner. If this is Motobecane I'd think it's ok. I've never seen Jeff Steber posting out side Intense Forum except for the letter he posted on the Spider review page.


You may have confirmed my point of the paragraph you quoted. It seems you are justifying what various builders are doing when they occasionally poke around a forum or post in a thread. These are people with financial stakes in the industry which may be effected by how members here respond. These same folks may be exerting some influence over said members.

Either it's okay for industry players to post here or it's not. Advertising should be paid for but I would say all who post about a product or business move are stepping into a gray area of a free marketing plug, even when under the guise of asking for product development input.


----------



## kon5t (Feb 23, 2011)

Malibu412 said:


> The way I understand the definition of SPAM is it is using electronic media to send unsolicited bulk messages. In other words, you have no control over whether or not you receive spam (filters can help, I s'pose).


what do you mean no control? There are two points you are making, which make me wonder:

1- If this thread is spam (debateable, but wait for second point), you are perpetuating it- nice one dude.....
2- By your definition, this thread is not spam, as I am very much in control of what I read and what I ignore, it is also delivered to my inbox due to a choice i made, ergo; no spam

You could off course always unsubscribe, then you would no longer be "spammed" when this thread is updated.


----------



## MyName1sMud (Feb 6, 2011)

I love the company. Got my el cheapo 29er SS beater from him.

Thanks again buddy!


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

kon5t said:


> what do you mean no control? There are two points you are making, which make me wonder:
> 
> 1- If this thread is spam (debateable, but wait for second point), you are perpetuating it- nice one dude.....
> 2- By your definition, this thread is not spam, as I am very much in control of what I read and what I ignore, it is also delivered to my inbox due to a choice i made, ergo; no spam
> ...


You just answered your own question and contradicted yourself all in one post. Nice one dude.........


----------



## kon5t (Feb 23, 2011)

Malibu412 said:


> You just answered your own question and contradicted yourself all in one post. Nice one dude.........


I suggest you read it again, the syntax is clear and correct.


----------



## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Malibu412 said:


> You may have confirmed my point of the paragraph you quoted. It seems you are justifying what various builders are doing when they occasionally poke around a forum or post in a thread. These are people with financial stakes in the industry which may be effected by how members here respond. These same folks may be exerting some influence over said members.
> 
> Either it's okay for industry players to post here or it's not. Advertising should be paid for but I would say all who post about a product or business move are stepping into a gray area of a free marketing plug, even when under the guise of asking for product development input.


Yes I do understand what you are saying, it does make sense. My original respond was the fact that I "usually" see their post in their own forum for example Dave Turner usually post only in his Turner forum, and The Canfield Bros only post in Custom DH/FR/Urban Builders which has their name in in the sub category. The only name I see floating around in a few forum is DW, again he's mainly in Ibis, Turner, and Pivot.

I go to specific forum to discuss about specific brand, like Turner, Ibis, Maverick, Ellsworth, ect. I don't expect to see Tony Ellsworth in a General discussion or Beginner's corner discussing about the latest ICT offering.

After reading your post I look at Bikedirect posting, he's all over the forum, bikedirect forum, motobecane, general discussion, beginner's corner, 29er bikes, site feedback, Single speed, All mountain, Commuter, Bike and frame, even a few in the Recycle bin.

So I can see why people would think it's a shady practice. Like Axe also mentioned that Brant from Ragley often stops by All Mountain. He is welcome. I thought that may be fitting since Ragley Blue Pig thread going on 12 pages now.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

mimi1885 said:


> o mentioned that Brant from Ragley often stops by All Mountain. He is welcome.


Also in 29r, Fat bikes, Downhill-Freeride, Frame Building, Turner, Colorado - Front range, Ibex.. Just poked around his profile. 

I am glad such folks are around here.

As far as bikesdirect, seriously, Mike is fine, he is upfront about who he is, and he is polite and informative. I am not sure why some folks have a problem with him. Just put him on ignore if that is too much to handle.


----------



## max5480 (Jun 19, 2010)

I think the company is fine, but I do wish they would start selling 29er single speed titanium frames.... hint hint.... nudge.... eh?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Right after Mass this morning, the Pope hitten a few during testing of a new yet to be released B.D. ride.


----------



## rweakley (Sep 7, 2008)

rweakley said:


> I only decided to go with upgrading my current frame because I can do so at around the same price (though the frame and brakes won't be as nice) and I absolutely LOVE the mechanics of working on my own bikes.


Crap, powder coating here is more than expected...looks like I'll be springing for a new frame too before it's all said and done. *my wife's gonna kill me!*
Anyways, who's got a frame suggestion? I'm thinking 4130 for a retro look, though not necessary. Doesn't have to be branded either. If you had a good experience on an eBay frame, let me know.


----------



## claydough001 (Apr 30, 2010)

I got mine in today. It's the wrong sized. Its missing pedals, skewers, Cables. Im pissed. oh and the paint is scratched off. I cant find a number to contact them. Anybody know how to get in contact with them other then email?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

claydough001 said:


> I got mine in today. It's the wrong sized. Its missing pedals, skewers, Cables. Im pissed. oh and the paint is scratched off. I cant find a number to contact them. Anybody know how to get in contact with them other then email?


Someone posted a number in this thread: 
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=645718


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

claydough001 said:


> I got mine in today. It's the wrong sized. Its missing pedals, skewers, Cables. Im pissed. oh and the paint is scratched off. I cant find a number to contact them. Anybody know how to get in contact with them other then email?


Odd and highly unusual, it seems. I guess they had a lunch break in Taiwan.

What model is that?

My guess is that they will take care of you. I have emailed them a couple times and response was quite quick.

P.S. Three days ago you have posted in a "GT Peace 9R" thread that you are getting it in three days. Does bikesdirect sell it?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Google fu

Bikesdirect.com
(214) 341-4116
9848 Robin Hill Ln, Dallas, TX 75238-2122
http://www.bikesdirect.com


----------



## claydough001 (Apr 30, 2010)

Axe said:


> Odd and highly unusual, it seems. I guess they had a lunch break in Taiwan.
> 
> What model is that?
> 
> ...


Yeah it was the Peace 9r. It they sent a small frame and there were some problems. Likes i said no pedals. missing skewer. missing brake cable (front). Just a bad deal. The 2 miniutes i had to look over the frame was nice tho. I also thought that the frame had decals but they dont. the gt stuff is painted on.


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

claydough001 said:


> Yeah it was the Peace 9r. It they sent a small frame and there were some problems. Likes i said no pedals. missing skewer. missing brake cable (front). Just a bad deal. The 2 miniutes i had to look over the frame was nice tho. I also thought that the frame had decals but they dont. the gt stuff is painted on.


Don't see that bike on their site, but I assume they did have it.. My guess they will take care of you, something slipped somewhere. My bike (Fly Ti) came with no pedals, and front brake was not attached - but that is how they sell it, and list it. Skewer and pedals and front brake supposed to be in a separate packet inside the box.


----------



## claydough001 (Apr 30, 2010)

Axe said:


> Don't see that bike on their site, but I assume they did have it.. My guess they will take care of you, something slipped somewhere. My bike (Fly Ti) came with no pedals, and front brake was not attached - but that is how they sell it, and list it. Skewer and pedals and front brake supposed to be in a separate packet inside the box.


Yeah i looked for it but they were not in there. It happens man. Im just down because i was supposed to ride this week with some friends and have no bike right now. Sold my other bike when this one was being shipped. Im just hoping now to get it before Saturday and that its the right size......and comes with all the parts......and the spokes are not bent......and p & e is not scratched off the side of the top tube. I will be a happy man when all this is over. Probably won't buy from bikesdirect.com again to be honest.


----------

