# * New Fox coil shock broke on a new Specialized bike* - F&S saying the two are now incompatible but NOT retroactively. HELP what to do?



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

I bought a Levo Expert ($9k) + shop-installed new DHX2 coil. All according to spec, work performed only by LBS, I bought both at that same LBS. Two months later shock just snapped in half while riding a mellow trail. Apparently now Specialized and Fox are issuing warning that Spec' bikes are incompatible with Fox coil shocks! Both Fox and Specialized are not offering any replacement, or to fix my carbon frame which was damaged by the impact. Fox rebuilt my coil shock and sent it back to the shop - so I can ride it until the next failure... Hu?!
This seems so wrong in many ways. I'm left with a damaged carbon frame, and useless (to me) rebuilt coil shock. All because Fox and Specialized decided to wait until November 2020 before announcing that the two are completely incompatible (and dangerous). What do you suggest I do? Has anyone had experience taking these companies to small claims, and reporting them to CFPB?

On the right is what the shock looked like after breakage - would you ride this again? I was lucky not to have my leg chopped off...


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Did not know that frames can be air shock only.

Who okayed the coil shock, the lbs or Specialized? 

With “they’re offering no replacement“ are you referring to the shop, the manufacturer or both?

I hope you can sort things out.


----------



## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Looks like a Fox failure? Did the LBS that installed the shock also sell you the bike?

If so, the LBS probably needs to step up and start rattling cages. You're probably running into the blame game where Spec is blaming Fox and vice versa.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

This particular failure is not unheard of on Spesh bikes using coil shocks.
11-6 builds a special steel shaft coil shock just for solving this specific issue. Might consider reaching out to Push.
The other option is purchase an air shock. Believe it or not I have an unused RS Superdeluxe air shock that was a new take off from a '20 E29. I'd sell it for $250 shipped if needed.
GL

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6920 using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Your beef is with the shop that took it upon themselves to do the swap. In the world of full suspension frames, swapping to a coil is NEVER approved unless the manufacturer publishes comment that it is. Doesn't matter what the shop thinks or what people on the internet did. Try to put this on the shop and see what happens. It will quickly become "we just did what you asked us to".


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

What is CPFB? You mean CPSC? If yes, modified products aren't eligible for complaint.

I'd also wager that the shop never had any conversation with S about replacing the frame. They know damn well that's not happening.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

92gli said:


> Your beef is with the shop that took it upon themselves to do the swap.


^^^ This, if understood correctly. I see all responsibility upon the LBS who selected this for your bike.


----------



## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I see this as Specialized fault, they know very well people upgrade components, if the stupid yoke design puts so much stress on a coil shock shaft that it will snap it they should have made that clear from the outset, the Dhx2 is not really at fault here as it works on all other frames without failure, the elephant in the room here is the frame not the shock, it's the frame which has caused this to happen and therefore Specialized should be liable.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If it was a non-stock part, and the owner choose it, clearly it's his problem if not really his fault.

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6920 using Tapatalk


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Suns_PSD said:


> This particular failure is not unheard of on Spesh bikes using coil shocks.
> 11-6 builds a special steel shaft coil shock just for solving this specific issue. Might consider reaching out to Push.
> The other option is purchase an air shock. Believe it or not I have an unused RS Superdeluxe air shock that was a new take off from a '20 E29. I'd sell it for $250 shipped if needed.
> GL
> ...


Which begs the question, if the frame is putting that much side force into the shock isn't it adding friction to the shock stroke?


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

I'd like to hear more. 

First, it doesn't sound like you have an avenue with Fox. With the shock fixed, I'd simply think about selling it and writing off the loss.

On the frame, what is the extent of the damage? Scratches or unrideable/looming failure? 

If the LBS did the work and packaged this as part of the purchase, I think that's where you are going to get the most traction. Simply put, there is liability in installing incompatible parts - I think they are lucky there is not bodily injury. If I was in their shoes, I'd be trying to work something with Spesh to get a fresh front triangle on the cheap and get past this mess.

It's sort of an unfortunate situation for you as it's easy to see a triangle of blame happening: shop says we did what you wanted and can try to pivot to Spesh and/or fox, fox says incompatible use, specialized says aftermarket mod.

What resolution would you find acceptable? It might be best to set sights on mitigating the out of pocket re: shock fixed & sell it & get an air shock or the takeoff, gratis new front triangle installed from lbs and just eat the downtime and misc collateral costs. Sh1t show situations like this could really cost you some head-space-time.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Danzzz88 said:


> I see this as Specialized fault, they know very well people upgrade components, if the stupid yoke design puts so much stress on a coil shock shaft that it will snap it they should have made that clear from the outset, the Dhx2 is not really at fault here as it works on all other frames without failure, the elephant in the room here is the frame not the shock, it's the frame which has caused this to happen and therefore Specialized should be liable.


I'm sorry but like anything in life the moment you modify something from what the manufacturer intended it be you are basically giving up on warranty or liability claims, specially if the part that fails is the part you replaced, so to the op I'm sorry but to me this is on you and it sucks but Specialized didn't do anything wrong. Also it doesn't help that this style suspension is known for putting side loads on the shocks and you used a DHX2, a shock that has a tiny 9mm shaft compared to most shocks that run a 1/2" shaft (12.5mm)


----------



## Jesse Hill (Dec 29, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> Which begs the question, if the frame is putting that much side force into the shock isn't it adding friction to the shock stroke?


From my understanding it's not from side force but has to do with the extremely high initial leverage rate of specialized frame with the yoke. Same thing used to happen to cane creek and they made a larger shock shaft to try and stop it. Now the x2 also being a twin tube not needing a large shock shaft is having the same issue (no surprise). If I remember correctly basically the frame wants to accelerate the shock so fast that the fluid can't flow fast enough which then overstresses the shaft and causes it to bend/break. I think there was a similar concern for it on the push link nomad v2 so it could only use shocks with a 1/2" shaft too but this is going of memory from long ago.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

^I think the question will be if the LBS was functioning & advising as an agent of the mfgr aka dealer or just providing labor.

eg: "Oh you'd like a coil, sure thing we recommend fox dhx2, let me work that into your bike sale"

vs.

"hello mr. lbs, I'm bringing you this shock, will you attach please?"

If I was the shop manger, I'd want this to probably go away and work with the customer on a reasonable compromise. Depends on the situation. If that labor rec form has "voids warranty, customer request, labor only" well, that's a position of plausible deniability and is going to hurt OP in proving negligence.

Last Edit: I think of this similar to a common thing we used to deal with, customers who wanted to install a fork with longer travel than what the mfgr spec'd. We would not do this work. Liability not worth undertaking.


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

How did the swap to coil even initially come up? I agree with others that the shop should be responsible for this, but there needs to be some accountability on your part. First because you know just like everyone else that aftermarket parts void warranty. Second because you can research this stuff too instead of just relying on a shop to tell you what you can/can't swap.

That said, any bike mechanic worth his weight in wrenches will know that you at least research compatibility of swapping critical components like a shock, and always check if it will void warranty. When you're talking about $9k bikes, that whole "I was just doing what the customer told me" excuse is nonsense.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> How did the swap to coil even initially come up? I agree with others that the shop should be responsible for this, but there needs to be some accountability on your part. First because you know just like everyone else that aftermarket parts void warranty. Second because you can research this stuff too instead of just relying on a shop to tell you what you can/can't swap.
> 
> That said, any bike mechanic worth his weight in wrenches will know that you at least research compatibility of swapping critical components like a shock, and always check if it will void warranty. When you're talking about $9k bikes, that whole "I was just doing what the customer told me" excuse is nonsense.


Agree but unless it was a previous known issue and the shop ignored it I don't see how the shop would be liable, same with Fox, there is no way they could actuary test their shocks on every single frame ever made, so unless that shock was an oem then that falls on the owner to do his homework plus Fox itself already replaced the damaged shock. At this point I would just try to get the LBS to get me a front triangle at cost and have them throw the labor to swap the parts for free, realistically that's about as good as you'll be able to do I think


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Agree but unless it was a previous known issue and the shop ignored it I don't see how the shop would be liable, same with Fox, there is no way they could actuary test their shocks on every single frame ever made, so unless that shock was an oem then that falls on the owner to do his homework plus Fox itself already replaced the damaged shock. At this point I would just try to get the LBS to get me a front triangle at cost and have them throw the labor to swap the parts for free, realistically that's about as good as you'll be able to do I think


I get what you're saying, but this is a known issue with the general riding community, and mechanics are just as capable at using Google as the customer is. When I worked in a shop I used Google all the time for things I wasn't sure about.

Personally, I would have Googled it and then warned the customer that there have been plenty of instances of Specialized frames not being compatible with coil shocks. If they argued and hold me to do it anyways, I'd put a massive note and disclaimer in their ticket, so that when they came back in with a broken shock/frame I could pull the ticket back up and tell them to take a hike.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I get what you're saying, but this is a known issue with the general riding community, and mechanics are just as capable at using Google as the customer is. When I worked in a shop I used Google all the time for things I wasn't sure about.
> 
> Personally, I would have Googled it and then warned the customer that there have been plenty of instances of Specialized frames not being compatible with coil shocks. If they argued and hold me to do it anyways, I'd put a massive note and disclaimer in their ticket, so that when they came back in with a broken shock/frame I could pull the ticket back up and tell them to take a hike.


Oh I agree with what you are saying 100% but that doesn't mean that that would be enough to prove they are liable if he wants to do small claims court, realistically he would have to show it's a common known issue on that specific frame with that specific shock to get a judge to side with him, that's why I think that at this point anything he can get from them would be better than nothing


----------



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Yea, I see what you're saying... The bike shop could be real dillholes and fight it with technicalities I suppose. Hopefully it works out for OP but it doesn't look too promising.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Yea, I see what you're saying... The bike shop could be real dillholes and fight it with technicalities I suppose. Hopefully it works out for OP but it doesn't look too promising.


Specially if he goes in all combative asking for a new frame from them, I would just go in and have a friendly really to see what they can do before asking for anything, he might be surprised by how much can be done when you are nice and calmed


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

For arguments sake I'll take the mechanics side. 
He likely doesn't see many 9k bikes each season. Or own one.
He can do the assembly and some maintenance on the bike.
He doesn't train or have experience with all the tuning configurations offered by aftermarket parts. 
The combinations would be extensive. 
An owner comes up with the combination that he feels will give him the best performance. 
That's a lot of the fun. 
And why you buy a 9k bike *and don't stop there.*
And the guy buying and 'tuning' a 9k bike doesn't rely on anyone else to make those choices.
He may ask for opinions and take in information. 
He wants to make the decisions based on his own experiences. His responsibility.

At the time there was no information available to verify the shock would fail. 
When the information became known the shock was listed as incompatible.

I'd not use the incompatible shock on that bike. I'd sell it.
I'd buy the current best shock for the bike. My decision. My responsibility.


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

I can't see how this is the shop's fault. Yes in theory someone could have checked to see if they were compatible, but if the owner orders something and wants it put on, what do you do?
Interestingly I read on the Specialized website that some shocks aren't compatible, even if they fit, and to refer to the shock manufacturer's website. So I went to Fox and looked at that shock and couldn't actually find anything to say what they could and couldn't go on.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

eb1888 said:


> For arguments sake I'll take the mechanics side.
> He likely doesn't see many 9k bikes each season. Or own one.
> He can do the assembly and some maintenance on the bike.
> He doesn't train or have experience with all the tuning configurations offered by aftermarket parts.
> ...


At the end of the day when modifying anything the responsibility falls on the owner making the final approval. Unless the shop would only sell the bike with that shock or they were the ones to suggest it in the first place I can't see how they are to blame


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Wow a nice heated debate! OP here: there's merit in all arguments, however I push back that it's my responsibility to bear.

I didn't buy the bike new and then install a shock;* I bought the bike with a coil shock together. Both from the LBS. Installed together before I even laid eyes on the bike* (it was out of stock when I paid for it). And the combo was recommended by at least one worker there that rides the same combo
The incompatibility wasn't known to the LBS at the time of purchase. Fox and Spec' only made that public about a month later. I wasn't notified or anything, and this wasn't "publicized" in fact they kept it hush hush. It was the resulted of many reports of near failures (and few full failures like mine) coming in. They're still keeping it under covers, while probably attempting to notify all shops
To this date as an owner, I haven't received any notice that I should be aware of the incompatibility. I wonder if Specialized Enduro owners will receive notices...


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

eb1888 said:


> For arguments sake I'll take the mechanics side.
> He likely doesn't see many 9k bikes each season. Or own one.
> He can do the assembly and some maintenance on the bike.
> He doesn't train or have experience with all the tuning configurations offered by aftermarket parts.
> ...


How does the price factor in to who's responsibility it is? And why do you think I 'tuned' the bike? I bought it new, with the coil shock installed, from LBS. What's the difference between that and choosing a build that has a coil shock from the website?
BTW Specialized has sponsored rider videos riding a Turbo Levo with a coil shock.
I'd wager you either didn't read the original post, or you work at a bike shop


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

amirh1 said:


> How does the price factor in to who's responsibility it is? And why do you think I 'tuned' the bike? I bought it new, with the coil shock installed, from LBS. What's the difference between that and choosing a build that has a coil shock from the website?
> BTW Specialized has sponsored rider videos riding a Turbo Levo with a coil shock.
> I'd wager you either didn't read the original post, or you work at a bike shop


.. and just to clarify: the LBS definitely agrees with me that Specialized and Fox should own up, but they were not successful in asking them to do so.


----------



## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Unfortunately this has been going on for years now, specializeds have always destroyed shocks with their yoke design. So I don’t see it as a shock fault but specialized will blame fox and fox will blame specialized.....but this is common even with the OEM shocks that come on the bike. If it doesn’t snap they at least wear out prematurely or if you’re lucky get caught after it cracks but before total failure. It’s a frustrating cycle and no one seems to be standing up to take responsibility. Trek is the same.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

amirh1 said:


> Wow a nice heated debate! OP here: there's merit in all arguments, however I push back that it's my responsibility to bear.
> 
> I didn't buy the bike new and then install a shock;* I bought the bike with a coil shock together. Both from the LBS. Installed together before I even laid eyes on the bike* (it was out of stock when I paid for it). And the combo was recommended by at least one worker there that rides the same combo
> The incompatibility wasn't known to the LBS at the time of purchase. Fox and Spec' only made that public about a month later. I wasn't notified or anything, and this wasn't "publicized" in fact they kept it hush hush. It was the resulted of many reports of near failures (and few full failures like mine) coming in. They're still keeping it under covers, while probably attempting to notify all shops
> To this date as an owner, I haven't received any notice that I should be aware of the incompatibility. I wonder if Specialized Enduro owners will receive notices...


But it is your responsibility, shop can recommend anything the want but at the end of the day you as the buyer/owner have to agree and ok the change.
Specialized doesn't have to do anything about it unless that shock was OEM, they can't test or plan for every single aftermarket part out there so Fox and Specialized have no fault to bear besides saying shock "A" or "B" might not be recommended, that's about it. By the sound off or you want a recall style notice but that would only happen if they sold that bike with that sick from the factory.
Since the shop recommended that shock I would try to work it out with them instead of trying to get Fox or Specialized to do anything since they are not at fault in this case.
I feel bad for what happened to you, I do but I would concentrate on having the shop make it right.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

amirh1 said:


> .. and just to clarify: the LBS definitely agrees with me that Specialized and Fox should own up, but they were not successful in asking them to do so.


Of course they are going to say that to avoid having to pay for it but if they sold you the bike and they are the ones that recommended the shock they are more at fault than Fox or Spec


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Unfortunately this has been going on for years now, specializeds have always destroyed shocks with their yoke design. So I don't see it as a shock fault but specialized will blame fox and fox will blame specialized.....but this is common even with the OEM shocks that come on the bike. If it doesn't snap they at least wear out prematurely or if you're lucky get caught after it cracks but before total failure. It's a frustrating cycle and no one seems to be standing up to take responsibility. Trek is the same.


Do you notice any difference in failure rate between let's say a shock with a 1/2" shaft and the DHX2 with 9mm shaft?


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> But it is your responsibility, shop can recommend anything the want but at the end of the day you as the buyer/owner have to agree and ok the change.
> Specialized doesn't have to do anything about it unless that shock was OEM, they can't test or plan for every single aftermarket part out there so Fox and Specialized have no fault to bear besides saying shock "A" or "B" might not be recommended, that's about it. By the sound off or you want a recall style notice but that would only happen if they sold that bike with that sick from the factory.
> Since the shop recommended that shock I would try to work it out with them instead of trying to get Fox or Specialized to do anything since they are not at fault in this case.
> I feel bad for what happened to you, I do but I would concentrate on having the shop make it right.


It's a good point. I still believe they should own up to it, a bike is supposed to be compatible with shocks of similar length (just like it's supposed to be compatible with different wheels).
Don't you think though, they should've at least issued a public notice / warning? From online posts it seems they started issuing warnings against this in Nov but only hush hush to LBS. That was at least a month before my failure happened. Could've spared me at least the frame damage.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

amirh1 said:


> It's a good point. I still believe they should own up to it, a bike is supposed to be compatible with shocks of similar length (just like it's supposed to be compatible with different wheels).
> Don't you think though, they should've at least issued a public notice / warning? From online posts it seems they started issuing warnings against this in Nov but only hush hush to LBS. That was at least a month before my failure happened. Could've spared me at least the frame damage.


Yes and no, too many variables for them to make a full on notice imo, is it all coil shocks or just Fox? All spring rates or just higher ones? Heavy riders or all riders? What's the failure rate? Etc. To me, and this is my opinion, it would fall a little more on Fox since they are the ones running the small shaft to say "this shock not recommended for yoke style suspension, etc" than for Specialized having to approve or ban every shock out there.
I would go to the shop and tell them that you understand Fox or Specialized don't want to do anything, but since they sold the bike to you with that shock per their recommendation, to make it right. let's say split the cost of a new triangle and they do the swap for free otherwise I see you having better luck with small claims against the shop than either manufacturer.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Unfortunately this has been going on for years now, specializeds have always destroyed shocks with their yoke design. So I don't see it as a shock fault but specialized will blame fox and fox will blame specialized.....but this is common even with the OEM shocks that come on the bike. If it doesn't snap they at least wear out prematurely or if you're lucky get caught after it cracks but before total failure. It's a frustrating cycle and no one seems to be standing up to take responsibility. Trek is the same.


The unfortunate part is that less-informed buyers don't know any better. This is one of the number one reasons I won't buy a specialized. Proprietary crap like this (special linkage designs) has no place on my bikes. Proprietary stuff like Trek DCRV shocks, some of the Scott stuff, Spec Brains, etc., it's all well and good for a few years, but after that, it's not supported and your bike becomes a giant paperweight if something craps out that is no longer supported and available due to being proprietary. Those wacky shock mounts are one of those things. It's not that the smaller builders are always better, but they usually have to "fight" for their customers over these big companies, so they tend to design them for the long haul and are relying less on image and brand recognition. Give me a Guerilla Gravity any day over a Specialized.


----------



## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

amirh1 said:


> .. and just to clarify: the LBS definitely agrees with me that Specialized and Fox should own up, but they were not successful in asking them to do so.


Are you dealing with the owner of the shop? Have you called Specialized directly?

Has the shop offered any type of crash replacement of the damaged parts?

Sounds a little like the LBS is blowing you off.


----------



## John232629 (Oct 11, 2005)

Disregard. Found my answer. My .02 is the shop should step up one way or another.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

My head is spinning:
Fox blames Specialized
Specialized blames Fox.
The LBS blames Fox and Specialized.
The customer blames the lbs.
The lbs blames the customer
The customer blames Specialized and Fox.

With blame going on all directions and these companies being as big as they are. Going to court would probably prove futile. See what the lbs will do, cut your losses snd move on. Sell the shock and do your homework, buy one that’s proven compatible with the bike. The warranty was voided once this shock entered the picture.

Good luck and sorry for your loss. I’m not going to give my opinion on who’s at fault here. There’s plenty of that to sift through already in this thread.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I'm not an attorney, but think Specialized and Fox would fight a lawsuit vigorously, probably win and you might be stuck with the court and attorney costs (probably not in small claims, but seems like you would lose there too). I would think the bike shop, that probably realized $3,000 profit on the sale, would be willing to help. Perhaps the frame could be salvaged by a carbon shop or they might get a replacement and bear some of the expense.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

...


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Unless the bike came stock from S with the coil shock installed, S and F are clean. The LBS, on the other hand, appears to be in this neck deep.

From what I can tell, they held themselves out (expressly or impliedly) as having the necessary expertise, upon which you relied (and were entitled to rely) to assume the shock and bike were compatible. Unless I am missing something here, this should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

EDIT: on a different note, I have a deposit on a SJ, due to arrive next month...certain comments in this thread have me slightly concerned with design issues, even with the stock shock 🤔


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> At the end of the day when modifying anything the responsibility falls on the owner making the final approval. Unless the shop would only sell the bike with that shock or they were the ones to suggest it in the first place I can't see how they are to blame


It's kind of the opposite in the auto repair industry. Some tire shops won't install any tire size other than what your specific car came with, even if the same car in a different trim came with the size you want to install. Some won't install any 3rd party parts. I'm not a legal expert but I'd suspect that if an auto shop installed the wrong brakes on your car and you got into an accident, you'd have a pretty strong case assuming the shop didn't have you sign a waiver acknowledging these brakes are not intended for your car


----------



## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Jayem said:


> The unfortunate part is that less-informed buyers don't know any better. This is one of the number one reasons I won't buy a specialized. Proprietary crap like this (special linkage designs) has no place on my bikes. Proprietary stuff like Trek DCRV shocks, some of the Scott stuff, Spec Brains, etc., it's all well and good for a few years, but after that, it's not supported and your bike becomes a giant paperweight if something craps out that is no longer supported and available due to being proprietary. Those wacky shock mounts are one of those things. It's not that the smaller builders are always better, but they usually have to "fight" for their customers over these big companies, so they tend to design them for the long haul and are relying less on image and brand recognition. Give me a Guerilla Gravity any day over a Specialized.


This. I tend to shy away from proprietary parts on principle alone.

Another point: Manufacturers who sell through a licensed dealer network (like Specialized) require the dealer (LBS) to handle the front end of warranty in exchange for the privilege of getting to sell a name-brand product. This arrangement has already been agreed upon by the LBS and the LBS has profited from selling the name-brand product. The consumer paid more money for a name-brand bike bought through the LBS model than he/she would have for a direct-to-consumer model. 
The consumer has every right to expect the shop to make this right. Personally, I would never go back to that shop again if the shop doesn't make it right.
I get this is a hardship for the shop, however, and if the shop does make it right, then I would go out of my way to continue supporting them.


----------



## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

You all are nuts to think the customer should move on or is at fault. He bought a product from a retail location that is expected to have a warranty. He did not bring in the part to the shop, he did not modify it himself and at no time did anyone even suggest any issues. The shop took his money for said item and they bear the brunt of the refund or replacing the item. It is up to the shop to go after Specialized or Fox for compensation if they choose to. Sue the shop in civil court and you win easy.


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Crap design from Specialized. A shock isn't a structural component and shouldn't be expected to handle those kind of off center loads. Even if a shock does handle those kind of loads I doubt it's all that good for bushings, seals and the overall life of the shock. I don't like Fox either but I don't see reports of other frames snapping shock shaft like that. For this reason alone I'd put the blame squarely on Spech but I don't think you'll get anywhere with them.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

amirh1 said:


> Wow a nice heated debate! OP here: there's merit in all arguments, however I push back that it's my responsibility to bear.
> 
> I didn't buy the bike new and then install a shock;* I bought the bike with a coil shock together. Both from the LBS. Installed together before I even laid eyes on the bike* (it was out of stock when I paid for it). And the combo was recommended by at least one worker there that rides the same combo
> The incompatibility wasn't known to the LBS at the time of purchase. Fox and Spec' only made that public about a month later. I wasn't notified or anything, and this wasn't "publicized" in fact they kept it hush hush. It was the resulted of many reports of near failures (and few full failures like mine) coming in. They're still keeping it under covers, while probably attempting to notify all shops
> To this date as an owner, I haven't received any notice that I should be aware of the incompatibility. I wonder if Specialized Enduro owners will receive notices...


If this combo was recommended to you by the shop, then it's on the shop. Definitely nothing on Fox. Maybe Specialized deserves criticism for not being clear about rear shock compatibility sooner, but at this point there's not really anything that you can do about it with Spesh.

Count me as another person who avoids proprietary crap like the plague. I have a friend who bought one of those new Trek FS bikes with that proprietary rear shock that integrates into the top tube. I look at that thing and I see nothing but trouble.

Specialized definitely doesn't need to make huge public announcements about this kind of compatibility concern that's come up later. They don't sell this combination as an OEM combo, so there's no requirement that they treat this like a recall notice. As you're learning here, there's more to swapping rear shocks than simply sizing. Tuning, leverage ratios, and so on are all part of it. There's a lot more involved, so much so that I've avoided diving into upgrading the rear shock on any FS bike of mine. Even I know that not every rear shock with the same physical dimensions is going to be suitable to every frame. And I know that some frames are specifically designed to use air or coil shocks. I'm not just going to make a change like that on a whim at one person's recommendation.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Harold said:


> If this combo was recommended to you by the shop, then it's on the shop.


/ thread.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Side question...does the Orbea Rallon suffer from the same design concerns?


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

I put a bigger turbo on my WRX. My engine blew up and neither Subaru, the aftermarket turbo company or the tuner shop wants to compensate me for my troubles. Who should I sue?


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> / thread.


Exactly. I feel a bit for the dealer as they probably wouldn't have known but in the end, the dealer is the customer's conduit to the mfgr. You are supposed to follow their informed advice - they represent the mfgr to the customer. Unless they expressly told/put in writing that this is a warranty voiding, ill advised, etc - they basically sold you a bike that had an incompatible, dangerous part spec that voided a mfgr warranty before it rolled out the door.

If someone got hurt here, I guarantee there would be a lawsuit in which the LBS would find very difficult to defend. While I wouldn't do it personally, I think you would win in small claims. I think this is a honest mistake as a dealer would have to be reckless to sell new bikes, they installed with known incompatible parts that the mfgr states could cause "injury/death". The litigation/liability exposure wouldn't warrant the minuscule profit.


----------



## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

rebel1916 said:


> I put a bigger turbo on my WRX. My engine blew up and neither Subaru, the aftermarket turbo company or the tuner shop wants to compensate me for my troubles. Who should I sue?


So the dealer suggested that option and then installed it before you picked the car up brand new from the dealer? The dealer should be sued.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Despite all of the many thoughts and opinions, 
the bottom line is that I feel the OP shares no responsibility at all and I hope that everything works out to his satisfaction.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Carl Mega said:


> Exactly. I feel a bit for the dealer as they probably wouldn't have known but in the end, the dealer is the customer's conduit to the mfgr. You are supposed to follow their informed advice - they represent the mfgr to the customer. Unless they expressly told/put in writing that this is a warranty voiding, ill advised, etc - they basically sold you a bike that had an incompatible, dangerous part spec that voided a mfgr warranty before it rolled out the door.
> 
> If someone got hurt here, I guarantee there would be a lawsuit in which the LBS would find very difficult to defend. While I wouldn't do it personally, I think you would win in small claims. I think this is a honest mistake as a dealer would have to be reckless to sell new bikes, they installed with known incompatible parts that the mfgr states could cause "injury/death". The litigation/liability exposure wouldn't warrant the minuscule profit.


Right. I'm not down on the LBS at all, I'm just looking objectively at the general rules of liability. The LBS is front line in this, they installed the shock. In turn, if Specialized has some liability as well, then the dealer can pursue them secondarily to recoup/subrogate.
None of this has anything to do with emotions or good/bad feelings or rapport, just legal liability.
=sParty


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Sparticus said:


> Right. I'm not down on the LBS at all, I'm just looking objectively at the general rules of liability. The LBS is front line in this, they installed the shock. In turn, if Specialized has some liability as well, then the dealer can pursue them secondarily to recoup/subrogate.
> None of this has anything to do with emotions or good/bad feelings or rapport, just legal liability.
> =sParty


And it may even be that one specific employee who made the recommendation in the first place that the shop needs to come down on. Ultimately the guy IS the shop in the sale, but the owner/manager of the shop should probably come down on the guy for making the recommendation/sale in the first place, without clear information regarding manufacturer support.

Because if a shop employee is making modification recommendations to customers that void the mfr warranty before the bike goes out the door....that's a *problem* for the shop.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Harold said:


> And it may even be that one specific employee who made the recommendation in the first place that the shop needs to come down on. Ultimately the guy IS the shop in the sale, but the owner/manager of the shop should probably come down on the guy for making the recommendation/sale in the first place, without clear information regarding manufacturer support.
> 
> Because if a shop employee is making modification recommendations to customers that void the mfr warranty before the bike goes out the door....that's a *problem* for the shop.


Yep, I'd hate to be in his shoes right now.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Cleared2land said:


> Despite all of the many thoughts and opinions,
> the bottom line is that I feel the OP shares no responsibility at all and I hope that everything works out to his satisfaction.


He's does share some, not most but some, as the buyer/owner he has the final say on what gets upgraded or not, and if he ok'd the change he had some culpability.
I still agree that shop should make it right since at end of the day you have an invoice showing the purchase with that shock so he would have no problem getting a favorable judgment if he wanted to pursue legal action imo


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Simple question for the OP, how did you decided on the upgrade?
Did you choose the shock, said you wanted the upgrade, and the LBS worker said he did the same upgrade and was happy with it?
Or you wanted to upgrade the shock to coil and asked the LBS about what shock should you get.
Fox has no fault in this.
Specialized has no fault in this, apart from just being Specialized.
The LBS may have a some amount of guilt.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Arm&Hammer said:


> So the dealer suggested that option and then installed it before you picked the car up brand new from the dealer? The dealer should be sued.


Plenty of dealers will install **** that will improve performance, while reducing engine life. When you start requesting bespoke options, it's on you.


----------



## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

rebel1916 said:


> Plenty of dealers will install **** that will improve performance, while reducing engine life. When you start requesting bespoke options, it's on you.


Not true at all, cmon dude. If you are buying a new car and THEY suggest the change THEY are also responsible for letting you know that it will void the warranty and I do not know any dealerships that would make that suggestion on a brand new car. How about you call all of the Honda or Toyota dealers in your area and see if they will swap out the engine for a different one and no additional costs on a brand new vehicle. Bet you can't find one.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> He's does share some, not most but some, as the buyer/owner he has the final say on what gets upgraded or not, and if he ok'd the change he had some culpability.


When a shop is selling a new bike and makes a recommendation to install a shock, then the shop holds responsibility for the recommendation.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Cleared2land said:


> When a shop is selling a new bike and makes a recommendation to install a shock, then the shop holds responsibility for the recommendation.


And you hold responsibility for accepting their recommendation, it's just a recommendation, a suggestion, not an order. I can recommend you drop out of college, that you go break into a bank, etc, in the end you are the one with the choice and power to do it or not. I'm not saying he bears full responsibility but some of it he does for sure. Only way I see the shop having 100% responsibility would be if they swapped the shock without his prior knowledge or consent


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

,


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Arm&Hammer said:


> Not true at all, cmon dude. If you are buying a new car and THEY suggest the change THEY are also responsible for letting you know that it will void the warranty and I do not know any dealerships that would make that suggestion on a brand new car. How about you call all of the Honda or Toyota dealers in your area and see if they will swap out the engine for a different one and no additional costs on a brand new vehicle. Bet you can't find one.


An engine swap with no charge is a bizarre analogy. Dealers do mods all the time. I've bought a new vehicle and had it race prepped between when I paid for it and when I picked it up. I've had suspension installed that wasn't going to be covered by the manufacturers warranty. When you start looking for custom , performance options, that is going to be on you as a consumer.


----------



## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

rebel1916 said:


> An engine swap with no charge is a bizarre analogy. Dealers do mods all the time. I've bought a new vehicle and had it race prepped between when I paid for it and when I picked it up. I've had suspension installed that wasn't going to be covered by the manufacturers warranty. When you start looking for custom , performance options, that is going to be on you as a consumer.


Did they tell you it would void the warranty? You are full of crap, yes you can change parts BUT they always tell you how it will affect the warranty especially when they push the upgrade on you. Hey let's do this your car and void all warranties OK, then you respond , sounds great let's remove the warranties what a great suggestion.


----------



## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> And you hold responsibility for accepting their recommendation, it's just a recommendation, a suggestion, not an order. I can recommend you drop out of college, that you go break into a bank, etc, in the end you are the one with the choice and power to do it or not. I'm not saying he bears full responsibility but some of it he does for sure. Only way I see the shop having 100% responsibility would be if they swapped the shock without his prior knowledge or consent


True. But if the shop wants to maintain its standing in the community, it should step up to the plate.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

DrDon said:


> True. But if the shop wants to maintain its standing in the community, it should step up to the plate.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Completely agree, I'm just arguing the point that he is without any fault in this mess and that he would be wasting his time trying to get Fox or Specialized to do anything, shop is the best route. That's all.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Arm&Hammer said:


> Did they tell you it would void the warranty? You are full of crap, yes you can change parts BUT they always tell you how it will affect the warranty especially when they push the upgrade on you. Hey let's do this your car and void all warranties OK, then you respond , sounds great let's remove the warranties what a great suggestion.


No. If someone wants to mod a $9000 bike, by putting a drastically different suspension system than the OEM, I would assume they knew what they were doing. Just like when I have flashed ECUs, changed wheels and suspension, removed lights and other required safety devices etc. no one has bothered to ask me if I realized I was voiding warranties and making it illegal for road use. This isn't like a kid trying to get a shop to bodge a DH fork on a $400 Hardrock.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

rebel1916 said:


> Plenty of dealers will install **** that will improve performance, while reducing engine life. When you start requesting bespoke options, it's on you.


That's different than my experience with the auto dealer and service industry. They wouldn't even install an OEM oil pan on my honda because I didn't buy the parts through them. IME, they are extremely careful about liability. A non-dealer shop will often install performance stuff, no warranty implied of course, like the performance suspension I got installed on my BMW, where the shop didn't tighten one part down correctly and I had to replace one of the parts after the work was done. The BMW dealership would do the Dinan parts that they had an agreement with Dinan for, but not ACS or other reputable tuner parts. Again, IME, this is extremely limited and they are protecting their liability at all corners.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well this thread is bad news. So far my dhx2 has been ok.

Specialized was shipping one version of the stumpy with dhx2 (I bought mine separately)

But the big issue is the fact the forward mount of the shock doesn't rotate so I can see this being an issue. I was curious about it and thinking of going back to an air shock anyway.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

amirh1 said:


> It's a good point. I still believe they should own up to it, a bike is supposed to be compatible with shocks of similar length (just like it's supposed to be compatible with different wheels).


That is not true and an assumption you made. I've always contacted the frame manufacturer and shock manufacturer when thinking about a new shock.
I though about a coil for my new Ranger, Revel said it wasn't a good idea and Cane Creek also told me it wouldn't work well.

As far as I know it's not just Specialized frames. From the reading I've done on here and other forums, generally speaking yoke style frames and coils are a no-no.

I was surprised when Ibis offered the Ripmo with a coil. Not sure how they solved it.


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

EatsDirt said:


> Are you dealing with the owner of the shop? Have you called Specialized directly?
> 
> Has the shop offered any type of crash replacement of the damaged parts?
> 
> Sounds a little like the LBS is blowing you off.


That's a good suggestion. I should call Specialized and Fox directly and try to persuade them, and have the LBS step up.


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

*CORRECTION* to this post
I was corrected that the photos below might be of a Super Delux coil (that's no longer offered , IDK if for the same reason). I thought these photos were of DHX2 but it doesn't look like it. I'll keep this post not remove it but it seems they're backing away from offering any coil
-------
The main page: (I've attached the full page)









Now if you click on "Shop now" - voila! They changed that image to air, and now only offer Kenevo in air configs.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Wrong, That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft plus it's a different bike than yours, just because they offer a coil on some bikes doesn't mean that every bike can fit one, what matters is that the model YOU bought is not offered with a coil shock so Specialized doesn't owe you anything, period, Fox replaced the broken shock so they are in the clear also. Right now as I see it, it's between you and the shop that sold you the bike with the shock they recommended and I'm not saying you need to eat all the cost but you are wasting your time trying to go after Specialized or Fox, concentrate on the LBS side.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

amirh1 said:


> _ALL_ I don't think some folks realize the magnitude of the problem: *Specialized DOES offer a yoke + coil stock combo with Fox DHX2* (really the only compatible coil shock from Fox).
> This problem affects ALL their bikes - including the ones that came with a spec'ed with coil shock.
> Here's a screenshot of their Kenevo website main page - you can clearly see the DHX2 yes? Just go to their website (I've added full size attachment)
> Below is evidence they did offer Kenevo with DHX2 Coil (and who knows what they're doing with current owners) and now they're in the process of covering up.
> ...


Unless you own a coil-equipped Kenevo sourced stock from a Specialized dealer, you're probably still stuck up a creek without a paddle.

Because you would need to prove in court that:

1) Your aftermarket-sourced DHX2 is identical to the Specialized-sourced coil shock on the Kenevo in design, materials, etc. (i.e. you would need to establish that Specialized did not source a custom shock, for which even the smallest difference can be argued to deal with side loads better)...

2) That the frame design and implementation between the coil-equipped Kenevo and your Levo are identical (i.e. it obviously isn't for the most obvious reason being that there does not exist a carbon Kenevo; carbon and aluminum have different flex patterns that can be argued to contribute differentially to stresses on the shock; you would need to hire an expert who would probably need to conduct testing with different versions to assert to the court that the differences are insignificant in terms of the issue in question), and most importantly...

3) That Specialized specifically deems the DHX2 as an acceptable replacement for the stock air shock on your Levo. Because it could very well be argued that an increased failure/warranty rate is built into the Kenevo pricing... but is not for the Levo. Which is why Specialized does not explicitly allow it for the Levo, but can equip it on the Kenevo.

I feel for your predicament. But in reality the responsibility lies with your LBS, who offered you a not-specifically-approved-by-the-OEM equipment modification based on implied fitness they semi-reasonably-but-ultimately-disastrously mis-ascertained and conveyed... to the end of making money on an up-sell.

Edit: apparently #1 fails on its face, as *Blkdoutindustries* notes that the coil shock on the Kenevo isn't even a DHX2.


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Wrong, That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft plus it's a different bike than yours, just because they offer a coil on some bikes doesn't mean that every bike can fit one, what matters is that the model YOU bought is not offered with a coil shock so Specialized doesn't owe you anything, period, Fox replaced the broken shock so they are in the clear also. Right now as I see it is between you and the shop that sold you the bike with the shock they recommended.


Ok I can't tell but it looked like a DHX2 , you're probably right. Still for some reason it's no longer available with a coil option


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

amirh1 said:


> Ok I can't tell but it looked like a DHX2 , you're probably right. Still for some reason it's no longer available with a coil option


Maybe they realized it could fail, you are right, and if you are one of the owners that has that combination and it fails then you would have a legitimate claim against Specialized but since your frame never came with a coil and Specialized never said it was ok to run they are free from all liability. Pretty much everyone here agrees with me that you should be trying to work it out with the shop just like @DtEW said above.

Again, just to make it clear, I'm not against you or anything like that, I hope you don't have to pay much to get it resolved but going after them it's going to cost money and you are certain to lose as explained above. On the other hand the LBS has a lot to lose here and that's why they keep telling you to try to get it worked out with Fox or Specialized, they know that if you take them to court they are going to lose easily imo


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> Maybe they realized it could fail, you are right, and if you are one of the owners that has that combination and it fails then you would have a legitimate claim against Specialized but since your frame never came with a coil and Specialized never said it was ok to run they are free from all liability. Pretty much everyone here agrees with me that you should be trying to work it out with the shop just like @DtEW said above.


Well, so far opinions are mixed but most ppl leaning towards either pushing on LBS to do more to make this right, and if that doesn't work I should just "suck it up". Some still believe fault lies on vendors, opinions seem mixed between Fox and Spesh. There's still a difference in my mind between buying a bike and working on it in my garage, versus what I did: buying everything new at the shop and having them deliver the bike with the shock installed.

I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.

For those that just think I should "suck it up": I'm sure they'd think similarly had those $9k come out of their own pockets 
The funny thing is if I buy a $500 bike on Walmart they'll provide much better warranty and customer care than all the aforementioned parties involved here combined.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

amirh1 said:


> Well, so far opinions are mixed but most ppl leaning towards either pushing on LBS to do more to make this right, and if that doesn't work I should just "suck it up". Some still believe fault lies on vendors, opinions seem mixed between Fox and Spesh. There's still a difference in my mind between buying a bike and working on it in my garage, versus what I did: *buying everything new at the shop and having them deliver the bike with the shock installed.*
> 
> I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.
> 
> ...


#1 See bold quote, that's why you and shop are responsible. Specialized and Fox had nothing to do with that.

#2 I agree their design might put more side loads on some shocks but unless you know the exact rate of failure you are guessing it's a flawed design.

#3 I'm sure if your failure happened with oem shock Specialized would've taken care of you by now so you are comparing apples to oranges with your warranty example


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

amirh1 said:


> I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock. Also not putting out some notice, given that Fox is one of the primary shock sellers. The DHX2 seems to work on most every other manufacturers (to the best of my knowledge) so there must be something off here.


I'm pretty sure Cane Creek used to have a compatibility checker on their website for the shocks. I can't find it now. Plenty of Specialized bikes running coils with the yoke. I have a TTX on mine. There certainly were reports of CC DBs snapping shafts early on, but they seem to have died out. What and where is the original shock that came with the bike? Can you take a picture of the damage to the frame?


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

This comes down to a question of contract law and liability law. (TL: DR is that they've all covered themselves legally)

Fox warranty says "In the event that your fork/shock breaks or malfunctions, FOX Racing Shox shall have no liability beyond the repair or replacement of your fork/shock ". Fox did everything they are contractually obligated to do, when they sent you the repaired shock.

Specialized warranty says "suspension parts are not included in the definition of frame or frameset".

Even a failure of the original air shock would not have been covered under the Specialized frame warranty. Any shock would be a "third-party manufacturer for non-Specialized components, such as drivetrain, brakes, or suspension parts". Any shock would fall under "Third-party components are not covered by this Warranty.". Specialized is not contractually obligated to cover repairs to the frame if either the original shock or any replacement shock fails.

Suing the LBS for violating the sales contract, you would have to show that they knew when they sold it, that the shock they sold you would fail on that frame. But the warning from Specialized and Fox didn't come out until after the sale was complete, so that actually works AGAINST your case. The LBS would be able to prove they were not informed of the incompatibility until after the sale was complete, by showing the date on the warning was after the sales contract was signed. It would be hard to prove they violated the sales contract for not warranty covering something the bike maker and the shock maker don't cover under warranty.

This section of the Specialized warranty is the only contractual language that covers this situation:

"What are my options if the damage is not covered by this Warranty?"
"As riders we understand accidents happen. Even if the damage is not covered by this Warranty, there may be a program available in your local market to purchase a new replacement Product at a reduced price. You should inquire with your Authorized Specialized Retailer and/or with Specialized directly whether such program is in place and whether you are eligible. "

Anything else Fox, Specialized or the LBS does for you would be good faith customer satisfaction stuff, and not strictly required under the warranty contract or sales contract.

Personally I would go in on a day the bike shop isn't busy and ask nicely about the damage replacement program for the frame, and ask if they still have the OEM take-off shock they can trade with the Fox to put back in a damage replacement frame. Then I'd ask the LBS nicely if they would split the cost with you, since everybody knows this is a bad situation with everyone finding out too late that it was a bad combination. If that didn't work I would get a repair estimate and try to find the OEM shock used, and sell the Fox shock on ebay.

Then if I were you, I'd go back to my dentist's office and bill out some crowns and some root canals to pay for my $9k dentist bike repairs. (JOKES!!!) Seriously though, hopefully something will work out, but I'm not sure there is a free fix for this.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

amirh1 said:


> I do think Spesh isn't "clean" here: their bike design is obviously flawed with so much pressure that it breaks a downhill coil shock.


If the frame is also breaking the OEM shock that Specialized sells with the bike, then the bike design would obviously be to blame. It is not so a design flaw with the frame if the OEM shock works just fine.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> That coil shock in the picture is a Super Deluxe and not a DHX2, 1/2" shaft vs 9mm shaft


It seems like all versions of coil shocks that came with the "Sidearm"/2nd-gen Kenevo (that is, the RockShox Super Deluxe Coil Select and the Marzocchi Bomber CR) from Specialized have been equipped with 1/2" shafts.









First ride review: 2020 Specialized Turbo Kenevo Expert – more capable than ever, but is it more fun?


The new Specialized Turbo Kenevo is all about having fun on the descents. It's got a new frame, new motor, much more robust spec, which promises to be even better for those big hits and demanding descents – but will everyone benefit? We found out!




ebike-mtb.com





Perhaps the potential shock side-loading of a given suspension system and the side-loading tolerance of a given shock are things the industry/MTB-media need to do a better job educating lay consumers (and the lay masquerading as shop wrenches) about... and make the requirements/abilities more obvious. For example, I was also trying to find the shaft diameter of the Öhlins TTX22M that was equipped on the first-gen Kenevo and some "Sidearm"/2nd-gen Stumpys... but to no avail. It's strange that something as simple as this dimensional spec is not made more readily available. (Not to say shaft diameter is necessarily a be-all-end-all indicator of side-loading tolerance... but at least suggestive.)

Even in the absence of industry cooperation (I mean, nobody _wants_ to admit that their suspension design requires a heavier-duty shock construction), more education about this issue from the MTB media might help lay consumers (and again, the lay masquerading as shop wrenches) think twice before throwing a thin-shafted shock onto a suspension design that has apparently always come from the factory equipped with burlier shafts.

I mean, you _can_ install a Rock Shox SID fork onto a Kenevo... but I don't think anybody would think that to be a good idea nor expect the resulting machine to live up to the duty level the Kenevo ad-copy suggests. And that's because we consumers have been well-educated about stanchion diameter as a proxy for a fork's duty level.


----------



## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Side note: Everything would be fine if you’d just purchased a bicycle and not a moped. 

Sorry, couldn’t resist. Now back to legal conjecture.


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

DtEW said:


> It seems like all versions of coil shocks that came with the "Sidearm"/2nd-gen Kenevo (that is, the RockShox Super Deluxe Coil Select and the Marzocchi Bomber CR) from Specialized have been equipped with 1/2" shafts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as I can remember every coil shock except DHX2 has a 1/2" shaft or bigger, EXT is 14mm and Push has a specific shaft for yoke mounts and E-Bikes.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This thread is shocking.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Give me a Guerilla Gravity any day over a Specialized.


Can I give you a triple "like"?


----------



## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Been to court on this before and I know how the story ends. If the LBS and manufacturer did not warn the customer beforehand, then the LBS and manufacturer are to blame--especially if the LBS is a Specialized dealer.

For those victim blaming and defending the LBS, change bicycle to "new car", change LBS to Toyota (or whatever brand) dealer, and change Specialized to Toyota. The court doesn't care if the part is mundane or a performance enhancement and the court doesn't care about who the victim is either. If the customer says "Hey, Mr Toyota dealer, I want you to install new WeatherTech floor matts". Turns out the floor matts are the incorrect model for your vehicle and cause the accelerator to stick which then causes a collision...guess who the court found guilty: the dealer and the manufacturer. And yes, this is an actual lawsuit.

Specialized and the LBS should count themselves extremely lucky that the owner wasn't injured. Healthcare insurance company's would have an easy day with this one.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

bingemtbr said:


> Been to court on this before and I know how the story ends. If the LBS and manufacturer did not warn the customer beforehand, then the LBS and manufacturer are to blame--especially if the LBS is a Specialized dealer.
> 
> For those victim blaming and defending the LBS, change bicycle to "new car", change LBS to Toyota (or whatever brand) dealer, and change Specialized to Toyota. The court doesn't care if the part is mundane or a performance enhancement and the court doesn't care about who the victim is either. If the customer says "Hey, Mr Toyota dealer, I want you to install new WeatherTech floor matts". Turns out the floor matts are the incorrect model for your vehicle and cause the accelerator to stick which then causes a collision...guess who the court found guilty: the dealer and the manufacturer. And yes, this is an actual lawsuit.
> 
> Specialized and the LBS should count themselves extremely lucky that the owner wasn't injured. Healthcare insurance company's would have an easy day with this one.


LOL only a jury would hold Toyota responsible for the wrong part being installed by an independently owned dealership. A judge would know better.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I think the difference between this and the tuner shop analogy is on an MTB people assume it's ok (structurally) to run any shock that is the correct size as long as the manufacturer says otherwise. It's not like you're going to make sure a Pike is "compatible" with your frame that came with a Fox 34 (again assuming sizing is correct). It's not unreasonable to assume that it's fine to use a certain shock if the manufacturer hasn't stated that shock model will not work. With aggressive engine upgrades, the average person is aware it may affect the reliability of the engine.


----------



## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> LOL only a jury would hold Toyota responsible for the wrong part being installed by an independently owned dealership. A judge would know better.


Unfortunately, I've been involved in several of these situations. Only one went to court. The others were settled by an arbitrator. I have to say the arbitrator cases were the most surreal. Representatives for all parties involved were in a conference room at the same time. You spoke when spoken to. Made notes for when you were called to speak. The atmosphere was very friendly; heck we all went to lunch together. At the end of the day, we all went our separate ways wiser.

The silver lining to each of these situations is no one died. I know of other cases where people did die and the cases were very heartbreaking.


----------



## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

As an aside...
There are bike shops who have chosen to forego the easy, upfront money of e-bike sales because they don't want to deal with any possible future hassles.

This shop made money from the sale, has made money from past Specialized sales, and will make money from future sales. The shop needs to make it right. That is the deal the shop made by being a Specialized dealer.


----------



## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Your bike shop will have liability insurance for situations like this for reasons given above. 

Ask them nicely to use it, it will be the cheapest outcome for all.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Good timing on this topic. I ride with a friend who is a corporate attorney specializing in contract dispute litigation and we discussed this specific topic. I outlined the information as presented by the OP with no reference to any thread post opinions. I was seeking unbiased information. I explained the problem and subsequent damage that resulted from the installation of the shock and the following discovery that it was not a proper shock for this model of bike.

He only asked a few questions about the bike to confirm that the purchase was a new, unused bike and if it was purchased from a designated Specialized dealer and did the buyer specifically request this particular shock to be installed. I stated the buyer wanted a shock upgrade and that an employee (mechanic, I think) recommended this specific shock and buyer agreed to take it and have it installed before taking initial delivery. He clarified the situation by asking if the mechanic was an bona fide employee of the shop. 

With no hesitation, he stated that any recommendations by a dealer (even if casual), or by any legitimate employee of the dealer would be interpreted by the courts as an endorsement and approval of the Dealer from a liability perspective. He further added that the courts will always view recommendations coming from SME’s or Subject Matter Experts in their particular field of expertise as reliable based on their specialty of selling and maintaining bikes. This can be legally validated by the fact that the Dealer was a recognized Specialized Dealer. He continued that because they are an authorized Specialized Dealer places them even more liable and legally responsible for ill-advised recommendations. The courts will always see a buyer of anything as uninformed and uneducated and that the buyers actual attempt to reach out to a commercial bicycle dealer for professional advice holds significant legal impact to the dealer. Unless they are extenuating circumstances, the buyer is considered as a non expert and advice taken does not jeopardize the liability of the buyer. The buyer bears no responsibility for accepting advice from a legitimate Specialized Dealer. 

It was indicated that while Specialized might hold some level of responsibility for failure to inform the Dealer of the issue, the fact remains that a recommendation was made by the dealer and any issues regarding the failure to notify the dealer would be between the Dealer and Specialized and not involve the buyer. He said that the bottom line was that the dealer made the recommendation and the buyer acted on that recommendation. In a court, the Dealer will be viewed as highly knowledgeable with more detailed information than can be obtained by an uninformed buyer. Licensed dealers are expected to be reliable, trusted sources of trustworthy information. He said, unquestionably the dealer would be the direct target of any litigious action taken and not on Fox or Specialized.

He stated if this were taken to court, the LBS would lose the case hands down. He also added that the expense for such legal action would not come cheap and it would likely not be worth the money or years to find its way into the courts. He stated that no attorney would likely take this as a contingency case and the buyer would likely have to put up a retainer fee and accept all costs of executing the litigation.


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Cleared2land said:


> Good timing on this topic. I ride with a friend who is a corporate attorney specializing in contract dispute litigation and we discussed this specific topic. I outlined the information as presented by the OP with no reference to any thread post opinions. I was seeking unbiased information.
> ....


Thank you, very helpful info! Honestly the LBS is the one I care for most and have the best relationship with (IDK anyone at Fox or Spesh), and this is the third bike I bought from them. It sounds like I need to be more aggressive with my demand that they handle this appropriately, regardless of whether or not they knew of the compatibility issues in time. I definitely don't want to take anyone to court, I just want a rideable bike back without spending even more money.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

So amirh1, how damaged is the frame? Is it just some surface scratches? is it smashed? are you just concerned about the impact weakening it? what's the story there?


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

How about some close up photos of the damaged frame?


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

@Carl Mega and @Cleared2land IDK how damaged the frame is. The bike is still at the LBS so can't close up photos but of course I'm concerned it was a large impact to a carbon frame, with noticeable impact marks. Whether or not the frame is structurally damaged - I'm not an expert. I don't want to find out on the trail, the same way I found out even downhill shocks can break three months in...
Why do you ask? Can you spot damage based on photos? I'd be happy to go take them if you think it helps. But I wouldn't be comfortable riding it until a specialist at least took a look (I know nobody from Spesh took a look yet).


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

While this photo does not clearly show your frame or level of damage, it really doesn't look that bad. Certainly appears repairable. But I hope that someone does the right thing and takes care of this issue and move on.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

amirh1 said:


> Why do you ask? Can you spot damage based on photos? I'd be happy to go take them if you think it helps. But I wouldn't be comfortable riding it until a specialist at least took a look (I know nobody from Spesh took a look yet).


Yes, I could spot damage from photos...just not all possible damage. Obvious damage. Potential damage.

Nothing wrong with asking for an expert to examine the frame - if that gives you piece of mind. You were there, I wasn't and that is valuable information into what might be waiting.. Depending on what my impression of the impact, there's a good chance I'd be getting on with my riding and not worrying - but that's me and my tolerance to risk. The things I'd be concerned about would probably leave indications that there was looming damage, paint deformation, etc. I've had plenty of fairly large rock strikes and the like that I'd inspect but, in the end, were not much to worry about. YMMV. If in doubt, have an expert examine.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I agree with the legal assessment above, also, this could likely be settled in small claims court easily, but it need not come to that. You should not be talking on the phone or in person with them anymore, unless they agree to an outcome you can live with. Otherwise, you should prepare a letter, state some of the things above, keep it cordial, etc., but ask for your terms. You need to establish a written record for the possibility it does go to small claims court. In all likelihood, you won't have to go that far. If specialized runs out of dealers willing to sell their bikes due to these kind of issues, they may finally change their ways, but nothing will ever happen unless people stand against it. It is ridiculous that they design the bikes like this and the shop should know better. If they aren't making that kind of information easily available, then shame on them.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Cleared2land said:


> In a court, the Dealer will be viewed as highly knowledgeable with more detailed information than can be obtained by an uninformed buyer.


Good post. This key point above is the right answer between the debate over whether the LBS or the bike buyer would have had the legal responsibility to make the shock choice decision based upon any KNOWN problems with using that shock with that frame. It is definitely clear cut that if there were KNOWN (proven/demonstrated) problems with that shock choice at the time of the sale, it would clearly have been the shop's responsibility, not the buyer's.

The problem in this case, is that the problems weren't known to the LBS until after the sale. The type of lawsuit your friend imagined wouldn't be a contract case over whether the warranty or the sales agreement would obligate Fox or Specialized or the LBS to repair the damage.

Instead it would be a liability lawsuit where the burden of proof would be even higher, to show that the LBS either knew or should have known that the shock that works fine on other bikes, and the bike that works fine with other shocks, don't work together. And that they actually did something negligent by advising the purchase of this shock for this bike.

But that's where the case falls apart. The notice from Fox/Specialized didn't come out until after the sale. And the LBS can't be held retroactively negligent for information that wasn't released by Fox/Specialized until after the sale.

That would be a "who knew, and when did they know it" case, and the OP clearly posts in the title of the post that they didn't know until afterwards. There cannot be retroactive negligence. The only way there would be a legal claim on a retroactive basis would be under contract law for a warranty or sales contract. And as your friend implies, there is no contract case here.

The best strategy here is to work with the LBS towards a good will solution. Let the know shop know what they can do so that you will leave a satisfied customer. If the know there is a solution where there is a satisfied customer in the end, they have an incentive to help in ways they are not legally obligated.

Maybe offer them free teeth whitening at your dentist office for help with your dentist bike? II KID!!! I KID!!!


----------



## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm just surprised the bike shop isn't willing to do more to keep a big spender happy. Seems like a one-way "relationship" with that LBS.


----------



## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^^^ That is exactly my thought. They should step up and deploy damage control. This is nothing more than managing the customer relationship. The OP needs to be more assertive and take the 'friendship' component out of the equation.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

r-rocket said:


> But that's where the case falls apart. The notice from Fox/Specialized didn't come out until after the sale. And the LBS can't be held retroactively negligent for information that wasn't released by Fox/Specialized until after the sale.


Why not? He didn't buy them direct from Fox/Specialized. He bought them from the LBS. If that happened with my car, I'd still go to the dealer to make it right. I don't think it matters whether or not the problems were known at the time, the LBS still had an obligation to provide sound parts/bike and advice. If it wasn't known at the time, they can take that up with Specialized, ask for compensation, stop being a dealer, etc.


----------



## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

My first thought is to seek out another Specialized dealer for their opinion and deal with the warrantee claim. The bike shops shouldn't have any motivation to jack the customer here...they request replacement parts and Specialized sends them out. It's not like they pay for those parts for a valid claim. The fact that they don't want to move forward with a warrantee claim indicates to me that they kinda know they screwed up. If there was a shop tech. running the same bike/ shock combo I'd be curious if he swapped out to a different component when Specialized put out the bulletin about the issue.


Point of fact, I've had many Specialized bikes over the years including the '07 Enduro SL with the problematic E150 fork. I probably went for replacement parts a dozen times and never had any questions about getting sorted.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Why not? He didn't buy them direct from Fox/Specialized. He bought them from the LBS. If that happened with my car, I'd still go to the dealer to make it right. I don't think it matters whether or not the problems were known at the time, the LBS still had an obligation to provide sound parts/bike and advice. If it wasn't known at the time, they can take that up with Specialized, ask for compensation, stop being a dealer, etc.


It does matter whether the problems were known at the time of the sale.

If the problem is known at the time of sale, it would fall under negligence laws.
If the problem becomes known after the sale, it would fall under warranty coverage or CPSC product recall laws, and there would not be any negligence on behalf of the LBS. I am not aware of any recall in this case. It sounds like the OP would like them to do a recall (that would solve his issue). But there has only been an technical advisory letter issued not to do it anymore in the future. The broken shock WAS replaced under warranty by FOX.

Cars are a poor comparison, because all the parts fall under one warranty. Bikes are different. There isn't one warranty that covers the whole bike. Instead there are a patchwork of different warranties that cover different parts of a bike from different companies. Specialized doesn't warranty the whole bike, the way Ford would warranty the whole car. People may want there to be a simple, single person that is responsible for making sure every part of the bike is perfect, and work perfect with every other part, but that doesn't exist.

Bike shops, just like car dealerships, aren't the ones who decide on whether a warranty claim is valid. It is always the manufacturer. The manufacturer who backs the warranty then pays the dealership/LBS for their labor time.

With that said, many LBS's and manufacturers fix stuff on purely Good Will basis to keep customers happy, because it is good for their business. Even when they aren't legally obligated. It is a good business practice, and people have grown to expect it. But it can't be confused with the LBS or manufacturer being legally obligated to do it.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

r-rocket said:


> It does matter whether the problems were known at the time of the sale.


My read on it is: the Dealer, who is the expert and privy to information the consumer wouldn't, should have only performed changes that where the specific shock model changes were explicitly Opt-In - eg: not any old shocks, shocks that were approved by the mfgr or those that conformed to mfgr specs. The assumption needs to start from "this is not approved" unless it was on the white list.
They operated outside of what they should have condoned. In the end, they let an unsafe bike roll out the door - that is bad news.

Just because it "fits" doesn't mean it's ok to do. Being the expert, it is on them to do the due diligence or inform the customer with a disclaimer.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Carl Mega said:


> My read on it is: the Dealer, who is the expert and privy to information the consumer wouldn't, should have only performed changes that where the specific shock model changes were explicitly Opt-In - eg: not any old shocks, shocks that were approved by the mfgr or those that conformed to mfgr specs. The assumption needs to start from "this is not approved" unless it was on the white list.
> They operated outside of what they should have condoned. In the end, they let an unsafe bike roll out the door - that is bad news.
> 
> Just because it "fits" doesn't mean it's ok to do. Being the expert, it is on them to do the due diligence or inform the customer with a disclaimer.


Can you find me this white list for any frame?


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwoTone said:


> Can you find me this white list for any frame?


Reaching out to the manufacturer prior to performing the shock change would be a good start.

I know when I'm building a frame, I'm asking the manufacturers before I make a purchase (even in the case of forks). Not just regarding raw specs, but also other little details that might affect how the suspension works. But sometimes regarding specs. What's within bounds on the warranty? What's out of bounds on the warranty? If the mfr is more flexible about what's within bounds, then I'm going to be asking what I get from different things.

If OP made the decision independently of everybody else, then that's on him to do the asking. But OP didn't do it independently of anyone else. A shop employee made the recommendation (presumably without discussing this with the frame or shock manufacturer, but how is OP to know that when the recommendation was made?). A shop employee did the work. And OP is the one being hung out to dry.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> Can you find me this white list for any frame?


I'd contact a Dealer, who would contact the mfgr if they didn't know. That's why they exist.

Further, just going from air to coil - #1 thing would be to check viability and compatibility. #2 is to be sure you have a cooperative damping tune. It's not just bolt up and hope for the best.

I was a wrench for a Dealer (sold Spesh too). We took this serious.

Extending on my edit: any dealer/mechanic who sells a big brand like Specialized/Trek etc knows that they are persnickety about what they will warranty and approve.


----------



## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

I believe I may be part of the reason why you're not covered here... Just last September, I had a 2019 Stumpy with a DHX2 that snapped exactly the same way as yours. Luckily, the DHX2 on there was given to me by Specialized as a warranty replacement for the original DPX2, so they hooked me up with another new S-Works replacement frame. It took a while to deal with the warranty claim, but I got the new frame by the end of October. Sounds like they changed their policy right after dealing with my case. That being said, I'd think if you have good shop, you should still be covered. I've found Specialized to be ridiculously generous with warranty on several occasions when going through my local shop.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

good old special-ed passing the buck as ususal...


----------



## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Lazy Squirrel said:


> I've found Specialized to be ridiculously generous with warranty on several occasions when going through my local shop.


This has been my experience as well.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Harold said:


> Reaching out to the manufacturer prior to performing the shock change would be a good start.
> 
> I know when I'm building a frame, I'm asking the manufacturers before I make a purchase (even in the case of forks). Not just regarding raw specs, but also other little details that might affect how the suspension works. But sometimes regarding specs. What's within bounds on the warranty? What's out of bounds on the warranty? If the mfr is more flexible about what's within bounds, then I'm going to be asking what I get from different things.
> If OP made the decision independently of everybody else, then that's on him to do the asking. But OP didn't do it independently of anyone else. A shop employee made the recommendation (presumably without discussing this with the frame or shock manufacturer, but how is OP to know that when the recommendation was made?). A shop employee did the work. And OP is the one being hung out to dry.





Carl Mega said:


> I'd contact a Dealer, who would contact the mfgr if they didn't know. That's why they exist.
> Further, just going from air to coil - #1 thing would be to check viability and compatibility. #2 is to be sure you have a cooperative damping tune. It's not just bolt up and hope for the best.
> I was a wrench for a Dealer (sold Spesh too). We took this serious.
> Extending on my edit: any dealer/mechanic who sells a big brand like Specialized/Trek etc knows that they are persnickety about what they will warranty and approve.


So basically no white list as implied and call as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.



TwoTone said:


> That is not true and an assumption you made. I've always contacted the frame manufacturer and shock manufacturer when thinking about a new shock.
> I though about a coil for my new Ranger, Revel said it wasn't a good idea and Cane Creek also told me it wouldn't work well.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TwoTone said:


> So basically no white list as implied and call as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.


I think the more people bug them about what's acceptable for an upgrade or replacement, the more likely we are to get an actual whitelist.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> I think the more people bug them about what's acceptable for an upgrade or replacement, the more likely we are to get an actual whitelist.


Right. If you tell them the shock you want to install, they will tell you: go for it, not recommended, not sure, no way. Specialized knows & they'd tell the Dealer (likely with more context) this if they bothered to inquire. Until then, your assumption as a dealer wrench starts at: "this is not mfgr approved unless notified differently". As a customer, if I brokered a 10K deal with a shop, I'd expect they'd be doing the legwork. A call to your dealer rep is not exactly stretching yourself. As a wrench, I wouldn't put any coil on an air platform unless I confirmed it was acceptable and yadda yadda yadda sensible. No bike leaves my shop that is unsafe, period. If a shop isn't doing this, what value are they at all?

From what I recall from ancient times, proprietary specialized was not particularly generous about swaps - more or less "if we spec that model, with that part/shock then it's ok".

TwoTone said:
That is not true and an assumption you made. I've always contacted the frame manufacturer and shock manufacturer when thinking about a new shock.
I though about a coil for my new Ranger, Revel said it wasn't a good idea and Cane Creek also told me it wouldn't work well.

^Right, Revel is your DEALER and your manufacturer.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> My read on it is: the Dealer, who is the expert and privy to information the consumer wouldn't, should have only performed changes that where the specific shock model changes were explicitly Opt-In


I think that would probably have been a good idea. That would have been smart of them. But Opt-In only parts replacement parts for bikes is not an industry standard practice. The industry standard practice is for shops to upgrade all kinds of components not spec'ed by the factory.

Keep in mind that Specialized's frame warranty doesn't even cover frame damage if the OEM shock they ship the bike with fails. I'm not sure how anyone is going to get better frame replacement warranty coverage with even an Opt-In replacement shock, than they would get with the original shock. Specialized's frame warranty specifically excludes the shock, which is covered under the shock maker's own warranty.

There is a big difference between what they could have done better, and what you can sue them for in court claiming that they were negligent. Saying they could have done a better job, and proving in court that they were liable for negligence are two different things.

Having a company's licensed dealers enforce an Opt-In only rule could violate the Magnuson-*Moss Warranty* Act ban on "Tie-In Sales" Provisions. They can't force you to use only "Opt-In" replacement parts approved by the manufacturer.


----------



## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Harold said:


> ...What's within bounds on the warranty? What's out of bounds on the warranty? If the mfr is more flexible about what's within bounds...


I agree with your level of detail for shock selection. However, warranty simply doesn't apply in this specific situation. Suspension shocks and forks aren't included in the Specialized frame warranty. Choice of shock or fork can't change what is within bounds or out of bounds on the warranty, because the shock or fork maker's warranty is the only warranty that applies. In this case the shock maker made good on their warranty and fixed the shock, the same as if any shock were installed (even the OEM shock that came with the bike).

*
Lifetime Warranty on Specialized-branded frames and framesets:*

Specialized warrants the structural integrity of the frame or frameset to the original retail purchaser for as long as the original retail purchaser owns the Product. Paint and graphics are not included in this definition. Frameset means a Specialized-branded frame equipped with a Specialized branded rigid fork. Suspension forks and suspension parts are not included in the definition of frame or frameset. Frame includes seat stays and chain stays on both rigid and full suspension models.

*I purchased a complete bicycle; are third-party components on Specialized-branded bicycles covered under this Warranty?*

There may be an applicable warranty from the third-party manufacturer for non-Specialized components, such as drivetrain, brakes, or suspension parts. Warranty information for third-party components should have been included with the purchase of your bicycle. Third-party components are not covered by this Warranty. Your Authorized Specialized Retailer will be able to provide you with more information.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Carl Mega said:


> In the end, they let an unsafe bike roll out the door - that is bad news.


This.


----------



## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Lazy Squirrel said:


> I've found Specialized to be ridiculously generous with warranty on several occasions when going through my local shop.


That probably has more to do with the shops clout with Spec and their willingness to push on behalf of the customer.


----------



## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

The only "white list" I know of are the manufacturer's specifications. The LBS has an obligation to both their customer and manufacturer to verify the parts being sold are compatible. Deviate from the spec? Pick up the phone and call the manufacturer direct or speak with your manufacturers' representative. Bike spec's are not difficult to find; they're posted on the manufacturer's website.

edited to add: if the LBS cannot fulfill this one obligation, why would anyone ever trust them? Why wouldn't the entire industry become mail order and direct-purchase?


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Looks like Fox is finally admitting the problem.
I called them and they've agreed to send me a new shock to replace the broken one - we'll see what I get.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

amirh1 said:


> Looks like Fox is finally admitting the problem.
> I called them and they've agreed to send me a new shock to replace the broken one - we'll see what I get.


That's not an admission.

You are very fortunate Fox is stepping up. As far as I can tell, they are NOT legally obligated to do $hit for you. Your redress, if any, appears to lie with the LBS, not Fox or Specialized.

If Fox or any other manufacturer was obligated to inform the public of all non-compatible uses of their components, they would be crippled from a business sense.

Ridiculous.

It's this kind of stuff that just adds to the cost of products for the rest of us. We have all now basically subsidized this asinine screw up.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

amirh1 said:


> Looks like Fox is finally admitting the problem.
> I called them and they've agreed to send me a new shock to replace the broken one - we'll see what I get.


What's to admit? It's might not be common knowledge, but it's fairly well known that coils and yoke style shocks don't play well, the ones that do are the exception.
I haven't had a coil bike yet, but in the little research I've done wanting to do it, I found that out early in my research.

Push designed theirs with a larger shaft and spherical bearing in the eyelets to get around that issue.

So it's back on the shop and frame manufacturer, not Fox.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> What's to admit? It's might not be common knowledge, but it's fairly well known that coils and yoke style shocks don't play well, the ones that do are the exception.
> I haven't had a coil bike yet, but in the little research I've done wanting to do it, I found that out early in my research.
> 
> Push designed theirs with a larger shaft and spherical bearing in the eyelets to get around that issue.
> ...


Honestly, I'd say 99% of riders with a yoke-style attachment don't have a clue about that. They will run what came on the bike and a decent % of that doesn't really care how well the rear suspension even works. It's only some bikes as well, as you point out, others with yokes are fine, due to them having enough reinforcement to prevent the yoke moving out of alignment with the rest of the frame. You know because you spend so much time on these forums. Most people dont.


----------



## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

To the people blaming the LBS - what world are you living in? Seriously, have you got somewhere I can contact this place? Because in my position as a retailer and suspension service centre I get jack **** info as to what frames are compatible with which shocks. Is the sales guy at your lbs supposed to have an engineering degree to work it out themselves?

bear in mind that post by fox explicitly lists a combination that was sold by specialized as OE so you can’t tell me they aren’t completely without blame


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

JohnnyC7 said:


> To the people blaming the LBS - what world are you living in? Seriously, have you got somewhere I can contact this place? Because in my position as a retailer and suspension service centre I get jack **** info as to what frames are compatible with which shocks. Is the sales guy at your lbs supposed to have an engineering degree to work it out themselves?
> 
> bear in mind that post by fox explicitly lists a combination that was sold by specialized as OE so you can't tell me they aren't completely without blame


That's why from the beginning I've been saying that by modifying the bike with aftermarket shock is the owners onus to make sure it's compatible and it's going to work, since at the end of the day is your safety at stake if something goes wrong


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Blkdoutindustries said:


> That's why from the beginning I've been saying that by modifying the bike with aftermarket shock is the owners onus to make sure it's compatible and it's going to work, since at the end of the day is your safety at stake if something goes wrong


Sure, if you do it yourself. But when you have a bike shop do it...


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Jayem said:


> Sure, if you do it yourself. But when you have a bike shop do it...


If the shop did it before selling the bike without seeing anyone, sure but if they just recommended it to me I would still do my own research before agreeing to anything but that's just how I am


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

The LBS should know the in's and out's of their product line they're selling. Fox should be asking and cross referencing the shock they're selling to an LBS for go or no go on a frameset. Especially if said LBS is selling Giantrekspecialized.


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

milehi said:


> The LBS should know the in's and out's of their product line they're selling. Fox should be asking and cross referencing the shock they're selling to an LBS for go or no go on a frameset. Especially if said LBS is selling Giantrekspecialized.


Yea that's feasible.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

LOLOL... LBS like "sure we sold you a $10K package and recommended a shock that doesn't work with said bike... sorry it went blammo. guess its on you though for not reading forums".


----------



## Blkdoutindustries (Feb 23, 2020)

Carl Mega said:


> LOLOL... LBS like "sure we sold you a $10K package and recommended a shock that doesn't work with said bike... sorry it went blammo. guess its on you though for not reading forums".


At the time of the failure there was nothing saying it wouldn't work so LBS is not to blame imo


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

That is an assumption you are making. I think it is a wrong one. Who here has worked as a mechanic and/or service manager again? Trek/Specialized dealer? Oh that's right.

First, this swap wasn't exactly trivial - it was taking a bike that OE offerings were air. It is also using a design where a proper mechanic would know that there are at least concerns about yoke w/ coil. Factor in (at least in my olden experience) that Trek/Specialized would usually only condone: 1) up/down swaps of OE offerings 2) vertical moves within a model line and maybe lateral moves by select mfgrs. Depends. Tons of qualifiers about meeting spec, risk After that - still unsure, you need to call mfgr dealer service or talk to your rep. If it was a good shop/good mechanic, they'd explain either: good to go, unsure not recommended - maybe void warranty but we'll do the work, no way its a safety risk. let's pretend that they called specialized and they said "sure, good"...and later we learned that not to be the case, the dealer is the one who will begin and administer the warranty claim. You don't jsut go: "talk to specialized, your problem".

Further, no matter what people on these forums tell you - 90% of people who get nice bikes from the dealer don't know jack. The 10% who know something, know less than they think. Where oh where should you go for information your soon to be purchased bike? Cranks on the internet? Or the dealer who is your connection to the manufacturer. Tough choice. There should be no daylight between what your dealer tells you and if you called the mfgr themselves - note: mfgrs want you to talk to their dealers. Dealers exist to: distribute the product, advertise & market the product locally, inform about the the product, install - service - maintain the product.

The sad part is - good shops and good dealers are not as plentiful as they should be. Lots rush & cut corners, lots make mistakes. Sometimes costly ones - which in the scheme of things, this situation is not. To be sure, there's good information on the internet - opinions and feedback can be useful... But it is not a substitute for experts and while many of us have gotten good at weeding out the cranks & contradictory information and advice - that's not expected of a customer - the single point of binding information is the dealer.

tldr: a customer should expect that the information and service a dealer provides is that of an informed expert and by following this expert's advice, the resulting work/parts/bike would be safe & covered by warranty unless told otherwise


----------



## amirh1 (Jan 11, 2007)

First, thanks to all those that feel strongly enough to share their opinions. Some folks put the responsibility on the LBS, some folks blame Specialized, some blame Fox, some blame me. And some blame a convo.
I have yet to receive the shock - currently just verbal commitment, bike is still in the shop. But honestly I still very much appreciate them stepping up - even if I personally hold the opinion that they should. And honestly I'll be happy to put this behind me - the bike is in the shop since Feb.
Regardless of who holds responsibility, we all - except Specialized - have shared the suffering. LBS is doing the work for me and managing the convos/shipping with Fox. Fox is (or will) replace the shock. And myself - two months without my bike, and I'll still be left with the frame impact. 
One thing's for sure: I've learned a lot from this experience, and can summarize it this way:

Do a ton of research before replacing stock configs (even though some issues like this weren't known at the time)
Get commitments from LBS. If they tell me it's working, and the employee is riding it on his bike - if not in writing, at least verbally confirm with the manager if something goes wrong with the custom config - it's on them. This is where "warranty" becomes vague
Vendors that have failed me in the past, are more likely to fail me again in the future. I may still deal with them, but that's another point to consider when I consider buying their bikes.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> That is an assumption you are making. I think it is a wrong one. Who here has worked as a mechanic and/or service manager again? Trek/Specialized dealer? Oh that's right.
> 
> First, this swap wasn't exactly trivial - it was taking a bike that OE offerings were air. It is also using a design where a proper mechanic would know that there are at least concerns about yoke w/ coil. Factor in (at least in my olden experience) that Trek/Specialized would usually only condone: 1) up/down swaps of OE offerings 2) vertical moves within a model line and maybe lateral moves by select mfgrs. Depends. Tons of qualifiers about meeting spec, risk After that - still unsure, you need to call mfgr dealer service or talk to your rep. If it was a good shop/good mechanic, they'd explain either: good to go, unsure not recommended - maybe void warranty but we'll do the work, no way its a safety risk. let's pretend that they called specialized and they said "sure, good"...and later we learned that not to be the case, the dealer is the one who will begin and administer the warranty claim. You don't jsut go: "talk to specialized, your problem".
> 
> ...


I thought I knew something, yeah right keep telling that to yourself, but only found out through this tread that you can not just replace an air with a coil shock on certain suspension designs.

So when I wanted to do that on my bike I just contacted cs of the manufacturer and asked.


----------

