# Bicycle Center of Gravity - Does it matter?



## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

I carried a friend's bike by its top tube. If both wheels are to lift off the ground at the same time, my hand should be positioned slightly closer to the seat tube than the head tube.

On my bike, my hand is at the middle of the top tube.

On another friend's bike, my hand is slightly closer to the head tube than the seat tube.

Our three bikes obviously have different centers of gravity.

Does this matter? If so, what is ideal? And what would the implications/effects be on a trail?


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

It does matter,how much is up to you and the type of riding you do. The best handling cars and motos have close to 50/50 front to rear and the weight low. A lighter front is going to be easier to wheelie and manual. If you riding uphill it might be more likely to be harder to keep the front wheel on the ground. All of it doesn't matter that much because you out weight the bike many times over, move your weight back the front feels lighter ,move forward and the rear feels lighter.Ride your friends bikes and see what you think.


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## sinfony78 (Dec 2, 2012)

they type of bike (due to fork size) should change that up quite a bit too...an 80mm travel fork will be much lighter than 200mm DH forks, but i don't expect DH frame builders to weigh down the rear end of an already 36+ lb. bike in order to create an ideal center of gravity...then factor in uphill or downhill and everything goes out the window...but that's what you are for, to shift yourself to the center of the bike depending on the terrain you're on


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## ManRam (Oct 2, 2014)

I've also wondered about this. 
I guess our bodies have to make up for the changes by riding dynamically and shifting our weight around.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I think the CoG of the rider + gear has a far greater effect than the bike's CoG. If a bike has a super-heavy fork, you will feel it. Otherwise, any modern bike that was designed for the terrain you are riding will be fine.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

^^^
+1.

Even a relatively light adult outweighs a relatively heavy bike a few times over.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

Thanks for the answers, guys. Very helpful. It makes sense that a front-heavy bike will ride differently compared to a rear-heavy bike and will depend on the terrain.

But is there an ideal center of gravity for a given type of trail? Something that will feel light on climbs but will provide stability and inspire confidence when going down a "green circle" or "blue square" trail?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I'd say the closer to the bottom bracket, the better. Or maybe a skosh forward. Basically, vertically under where my own CG is.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

Many thanks, Andrew. 

At least now my friends and I know where we should begin when putting our hard earned cash into buying parts that will make our bikes lighter.

Would you recommend transferring the tools and whatnots in the saddle bag to the jersey back pocket before a ride? Or just leave them there?


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

The place where you will feel weight loss the most is in the tires/wheels. Bike weight is minimal compared to you. I carry my stuff in a camelback.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

elco said:


> Many thanks, Andrew.
> 
> At least now my friends and I know where we should begin when putting our hard earned cash into buying parts that will make our bikes lighter.
> 
> Would you recommend transferring the tools and whatnots in the saddle bag to the jersey back pocket before a ride? Or just leave them there?


I was spinning up to a bit of a rant, but if you're going to start throwing money at bike weight, I can't dissuade you, and if you were being ironic, I guess I'm just not cool enough to read it.

As far as taking crap off my bike and putting it on my back - every time I get in or out of the saddle, I feel the weight I'm carrying. I'm primarily a XC guy. I do quite a lot of my bike handling by counter steering and dipping my feet. I definitely move forward and back along the bike too and I do pick up my front end from time to time, and even ride the occasional table top, but I can't say I notice a little extra weight on the bike doing that stuff as much as I notice having more crap on my back. I do own a Camelbak, but only use it for rides over three hours. Use to be rides over four and a half hours, but I gave up a bottle cage moving to full suspension. I vastly prefer letting my bike carry my water for me.

I try to grab the low-hanging fruit when I look at the total system weight. Some guys have a million tools, lights, a GoPro, and a pedal wrench in some complex and heavy camelbak. I do carry a multi tool and a pump. I don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere either. But I just carry the one. I like to have two tubes, sometimes a patch kit, and a quick link in a seat wedge. And I call it a day there.

So that would be my advice to others: take a critical look at what you're carrying with you. In what circumstance will you need it? Will you really need it in that circumstance? Do you even know how to use it/will it really help? How much redundancy do you need? And, don't let your camelbak or seat wedge or whatever be a black hole that you don't know the contents of. Anything in there needs to be there for a reason.

EDIT: I'd observe that my jersey pockets are further away from my bottom bracket than a seat wedge is. Unless I'm under the bike. Which never happens. Not ever.


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

The COG is different with the rider on the bike. You should be shifting the COG around based on the terrain the bike is going over. Unless you are on flat asphalt the needed changes are constant or evolving as you ride. You maneuvering your weight around is paramount to traction and is a fundamental skill of MTBing.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I was spinning up to a bit of a rant, but if you're going to start throwing money at bike weight, I can't dissuade you, and if you were being ironic, I guess I'm just not cool enough to read it.


No, I was not being ironic. Please allow me to explain. I am admittedly a wet-behind-the-ears newbie, so please be patient. 

I got my first mountain bike last November. It is a slightly-used 26er hardtail with a decent groupset and wheelset, but with a relatively heavy entry-level frame and cockpit. Since I got it, I've been riding on nearby city roads almost daily to build my meager strength and stamina.

Right after New Year's day, a friend invited me to go on my first trail ride. He has been been on local trails many times. As for me, it was my first time to join him and another friend last January 04.

On that day, it took us just under 3 hours to complete roughly 18 miles of trail that is classified under IMBA standards as 70% green-circle and 30% blue-square.

While riding, I noticed several improvements that I could dial-in on seat height, seat angle, stem height, brake lever placement and many other little details. When we stopped to rest (and often we did rest), I adjusted them little by little and one at a time with the tools I had in my saddle bag. The bike started to feel better. Lighter on climbs and I had a little more confidence descending slopes.

Besides, I'll take a zero-cost improvement over whipping out my wallet any day of the week.

Right after my first trail ride, I felt tired and exhausted but happy. I also felt that I had dialed-in my bike to a degree that I could never have successfully done had I limited myself to riding on city roads. I confirmed this two days later by riding on those roads. They felt so much easier to ride on. 

But my bike still has a relatively heavy, entry-level frame and cockpit, so I often scour local forums and websites for good deals on those parts. I am not wealthy, so getting a new and lighter frame is definitely out of the question. But I could probably scrimp and save for a lighter/better handlebar, stem, seat and seat post. And not all at once, but one at a time.

I started this thread by asking about Center of Gravity. If there is an ideal CoG, then I will more or less know which part to upgrade first. And that's all my intentions were. 

You mentioned close to the bottom bracket or a bit forward from it. When I carry my bike, my hand has to be at the middle of the top tube for both wheels to lift off the ground at the same time. I suppose this puts my bike's CoG a bit too far to the front.

I can't afford a new and lighter fork at the moment, but I did find a good deal on an almost-new carbon fiber riser bar in a local forum. Specs say it weighs around 200 grams which is almost half the 370 grams that my current bars weigh.

Should I take it?


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

Terranaut said:


> The COG is different with the rider on the bike. You should be shifting the COG around based on the terrain the bike is going over. Unless you are on flat asphalt the needed changes are constant or evolving as you ride. You maneuvering your weight around is paramount to traction and is a fundamental skill of MTBing.


Thanks for the info. I was just wondering whether there is an ideal CoG for an unridden bike. Oh, and if it at all matters.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Unless your frame is cheap steel, it's not all that heavy. Probably on the order of 3-4.5 lb, just to put a number on it.

There are some carbon hardtail frames out there that weigh a little under a kilo. They trumpet this to the world - it's a big achievement. A kilo is a little more than two pounds, but those frames cost a couple thousand dollars. Point is, there's not much weight for you to lose from your frame. (Again, unless it's department store grade. Bikes Direct and fancier are definitely on the lighter side of that division.)

Expressing weights in grams is the right decision for the bike industry. It makes fairly small changes in weight sound like a lot. 200 g isn't almost half of 370, it's more. Is that 170 g delta worth that to you? That's less than a third of the weight of a small water bottle when it's full. Try some experiments taping ballast to different parts of your bike if you like.

Since you mention it, what fork do you have, anyway?

In case it matters, I actually have an upgradeitis entry-level hardtail myself. Of course, every step along the path made sense to me at the time, from buying a $600 retail bike through to the latest handlebar (its third) I put on it. And I do like the bike; I usually keep it behind my desk at work lately. But it's also a frankenbike that's cost quite a lot extra in time, money, and aggravation. I could have had race-ready for $600 if I bought a complete bike secondhand, and for a while, I kicked myself every time I told one of my friends to do that and they followed my advice.

FWIW, the fork and tires have been the highest-yield upgrades on that bike. That, and me upgrading my skills and fitness.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Unless your bike is wildly out of balance, like say you've got a 12 lb fork and wheel combo up front on a hardtail or something silly like that, the CoG of the bike without you on doesn't matter (well, maybe to the extent of how much paint and stickers add to the overall weight of a bike or some other negligible nitpick). 

Add a rider and your CoG changes every time you shift your body weight even the slightest bit. You can overcome just about any fore-aft CoG imbalance on your bike by sticking your chin out or pulling it in. Playing the weight-weenie game with the overall bike is a whole different subject, but as far as making changes with the aim of affecting the CoG of the bike, don't waste your time unless a) it's wildly out of balance, which is unlikely or b) you spend a shitload of time in the air and know exactly what sort of balance you're looking to achieve and how to get there without compromising strength.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Since you mention it, what fork do you have, anyway?


My frame is a 2011-model Giant ATX hardtail and my fork is a 2012-model Suntour Epicon X1 with 120mm of travel.

Now that I know that the CoG of an unridden bike does not matter very much, I went ahead and purchased the slightly used carbon fiber riser bar I mentioned in my previous post.

I installed it and felt a lot less buzz and numbness on my hands compared to before. In my opinion, the improved ride comfort is well worth it. 



slapheadmofo said:


> Unless your bike is wildly out of balance, like say you've got a 12 lb fork and wheel combo up front on a hardtail or something silly like that, the CoG of the bike without you on doesn't matter.


I think I got it. Thank you.

I hear a local trail calling. Time to go improve my bike skills.


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

The COG matters a lot...but not when the bike is static and when you are riding you control the COG. If you follow "light on the bars, heavy on the pedals" your COG will be low and that is very important. When cornering you want the outside pedal down and as much weight as possible on that foot. Again these are fundamental to being a good rider. If you ha e never done this stuff before try it and see how much the COG affects traction. Traction equals confidence which equals better rides and braver trails. I am assuming your skill level here but if it is not expert or pro a few grams fore or aft on the bike itself wilm make almost no difference whatsoever. Overall weight is a different story but not static COG.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

Terranaut said:


> The COG matters a lot...but not when the bike is static and when you are riding you control the COG. If you follow "light on the bars, heavy on the pedals" your COG will be low and that is very important. When cornering you want the outside pedal down and as much weight as possible on that foot. Again these are fundamental to being a good rider. If you ha e never done this stuff before try it and see how much the COG affects traction. Traction equals confidence which equals better rides and braver trails. I am assuming your skill level here but if it is not expert or pro a few grams fore or aft on the bike itself wilm make almost no difference whatsoever. Overall weight is a different story but not static COG.


Yes, I figured as much. As a beginner, my level of skill is very low. Still learning how to go light on the bars but I think I got it. During descents, I put very little of my weight on the handlebars - most of it is on the pedals.

But I'm having a hard time going light on the bars during uphill climbs. What body position should I take to climb efficiently and not have my palms hurt from numbness?


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

If you can stay on the seat slide forward until ...well it is uncomfortable. Lean your chin towards your stem but keeping your head up. Sometimes you will need some weight o. The bars to keep the front of the bike planted and tracking true. The trick is to only have that much weight up front. Too much and you might spin out the rear and stop your climbing momentum. Pratice makes ....better ;-)


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

elco said:


> Yes, I figured as much. As a beginner, my level of skill is very low. Still learning how to go light on the bars but I think I got it. During descents, I put very little of my weight on the handlebars - most of it is on the pedals.
> 
> But I'm having a hard time going light on the bars during uphill climbs. What body position should I take to climb efficiently and not have my palms hurt from numbness?


Sounds like your bike doesn't fit you.

Here's an article I like on bike setup.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

Taking a systematic approach helps, I think.

When you've got that dialed, you might move on to your suspension. I don't have saddle time on the Epicon, but people seem to think it's a worthwhile, tunable fork. Find "your" tire pressure too. I'm a sucker for fancy tires. Schwalbe Racing Ralphs could work well for how you're currently using the bike, though they take some finesse off-road.

If you must do the weight thing, be systematic about that too. It's more than I want to spend and I don't think it's that important. But if I was really going to go after lightweighting a bicycle, I'd take it apart, weigh everything, and put all that in a spreadsheet. Wheels and cranks are common places for people to drop some weight. There's sometimes a surprising amount to lose from saddles too.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

I read Peter White's article and the thing that struck me the most was when he said bike fitting is a series of compromises. 

With that in mind, I'm pretty confident I've got my bike properly dialed in to my body, and any difficulty I have when climbing is clear evidence that I need to ride more to strengthen my muscles. 

My wheelset is the Shimano XT WH-M785 26ers and are wrapped with Schwalbe Rocket Rons (not the newer EVO version, though). I suppose they're not that heavy but I have yet to go tubeless. Still researching on how to DIY it myself. 

Also, I can relate with what you said about saddle weight. My own Selle Royal saddle weighs a ton compared to my friend's Fizik Tundra 00. Not having the funds for such an expensive saddle, I think I'll make do with what I have for now.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

elco said:


> I read Peter White's article and the thing that struck me the most was when he said bike fitting is a series of compromises.
> 
> With that in mind, I'm pretty confident I've got my bike properly dialed in to my body, and any difficulty I have when climbing is clear evidence that I need to ride more to strengthen my muscles.
> 
> ...


You said your hands got numb and painful when you climbed.

For me, that would be the wrong compromise. Try landing your bars somewhere else - really.

As far as the saddle, they don't need to be expensive to be light. Most of that is in the shell design. Once the rails are hollow chromoly, they're not getting much lighter. If you have a narrow butt, try this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Selle-San-M...84531?pt=US_Saddles_Seats&hash=item339bd25393

It's my personal favorite. I was tempted to buy it when the listing popped up, but I have a new one on the shelf I haven't had time to install yet.


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## shortnangry (Nov 16, 2014)

Wheels are the number one place to drop weight, but the XT's with RR should already be pretty light particularly in 26", unless you really put down money for carbon. Overall, I'd say forget about the weight; you're making marginal changes that won't make tremendous differences. Go tubeless. It's not a weight thing, but will make the ride noticeably better and it's a cheap change. For climbing, stay in the saddle and lean your chin down toward your bars spinning smooth circles. There's a vocal minority advocating standing to climb (see bikejames.com, for example). With that you want to keep your hips back, torso forward and modulate how you mash the pedals. I personally go back and forth and make no recommendation one way or the other. As for numb palms, you may be carrying your elbows too narrow and/or too low leading to dropped wrists. Think about how people type for example: straight wrists vs dropped wrist. Same concept. It could also be lever angle. If you ride with a finger resting on top of the brake lever and the lever angle is too high it can stress your hand/wrist. Lastly, if you're riding with thick grips and/or padded-palm gloves, you could gripping too tight without realizing it.


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## rfxc (Oct 18, 2004)

Use all this energy to Go tubeless and/or try different tires. Tire selection will have a MUCH bigger difference in bike feel and performance than where you decide to place your extra tube, or whether your cranks or bars are carbon. 

Use this energy figuring out how to ride more, and focus on handling and learning. Read about, watch videos about bike handling. 

Trying to decide which parts to upgrade to save some weight on mostly "green" trails is like trying to decide which high end golf clubs to buy when you probably a crappy swing anyway.

Get to know other riders, and borrow tires and wheels from friends if you want to tinker. You should be able to find 26er wheels and tires from many fellow riders garages with zero cost to "try 'em out" for awhile. 

Caveat: I'm not a golfer.


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

rfxc said:


> Trying to decide which parts to upgrade to save some weight on mostly "green" trails is like trying to decide which high end golf clubs to buy when you probably a crappy swing anyway.
> 
> Caveat: I'm not a golfer.


Just FYI golf clubs have "game improvement heads" for us less than graceful golfers. 

I won't get into golf, but their equipment has actual "rules" and stuff.

Not that their aren't "rules" in MTBing, but us regular guys don't carry a rule book around like some golfers.

Signed, 
all kinds of equipment geek.

Good discussion. I think the guys saying the static COG is not super important are right. As you ride offroad your COG should be changing as the terrain requires. Where you put your weight on the pedals vs. sitting in the saddle make a huge difference in stability.

If you watch trials guys they do most of their tricks standing (obviously just looking at most of their bikes makes one wonder why they have seats, and indeed some of them don't).

A buddy and I went on a snow ride last sunday, I had to really weight myself back to ride through a lot of the ruts, trying to keep the front up. It lightened up the steering and made riding much more enjoyable. Vs. the front cutting into the ruts and pulling the front into washing out numerous times.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Playing the weight weenie game isn't about riding, it's about shopping.

Personally, I like mountain biking a lot more than I like shopping.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You said your hands got numb and painful when you climbed.


Did I mention I don't wear gloves when I ride? I don't want to make a mistake and buy a poor-fitting pair, so I've been visiting local bike shops to test-fitting some of them. What do you use?



shortnangry said:


> Go tubeless. It's not a weight thing, but will make the ride noticeably better and it's a cheap change. For climbing, stay in the saddle and lean your chin down toward your bars spinning smooth circles. There's a vocal minority advocating standing to climb (see bikejames.com, for example). With that you want to keep your hips back, torso forward and modulate how you mash the pedals. I personally go back and forth and make no recommendation one way or the other. As for numb palms, you may be carrying your elbows too narrow and/or too low leading to dropped wrists. Think about how people type for example: straight wrists vs dropped wrist.


Yes, I plan on going tubeless on my next visit to a local bike shop that can either do it for me or sell what I need to get it done.

Regarding my position when climbing, I do shift my weight forward but not in an exaggerated position. Let me try your advice on brake lever rotation on the bars and its relationship with wrist position. Yes, I do ride with my pointing finger resting on the brake levers. I guess its instinctive as I am unfamiliar with trail. Same thing when I ride on the city roads where I live, as cars and pedestrians tend to come at me at unexpected times.



mjydrafter said:


> I think the guys saying the static COG is not super important are right. As you ride offroad your COG should be changing as the terrain requires. Where you put your weight on the pedals vs. sitting in the saddle make a huge difference in stability.


Yep, I see that now. The reason I asked is to have an idea of which currently heavy part to upgrade first once budget permits. I certainly am not a weight weenie simply because I don't have the funds. But if I run into some cash, I'd like to put it into my bike as wisely as possible. Since static CoG does not really matter, I'm thinking gloves (I don't have a pair yet), or ergonomic grips like these (my current ones are these), or a more comfortable (not necessarily lighter) saddle.

Right now I'm practicing putting my weight rearwards and on the pedals with almost no weight on the bars during descents. Hand numbness becomes a non-issue but I still tend to "ride" the brakes. As a newbie, my balls are still up in my throat every time I see a steep descent. Working on it, though.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

IMHO, ergonomic grips and padded gloves just mask the problem. I use neither. Actually, I find padded gloves a little weird on a mountain bike. I do wear gloves every ride, though. Between blisters and how much road rash hurts when it's my hand, it's the second most important piece of safety gear to me.

On the bike spending thing, let me suggest a different direction. Spend money on solving specific problems, that you have reason to believe you'll really address when you spend the money.

On the weight thing - your bike probably weighs on the order of 30 lb. If you save 100 g here and there, after four upgrades you've had to save or hunt deals for, it'll weigh 29 lb. BFD.

You've actually already hit the highest-yield parts in that you have a well-regarded fork and tires. I think your next high-yield steps are to take your time, do your bike setup over, and try to get it right. You should be able to take your hands off the bars, your butt off the saddle, or both without shifting around. That'll mean your CG is in the right place and your bike setup isn't forcing you off-center. Given what you've said about numb hands and the front end lifting, my suspicion is it's wrong. If you take your time and really follow the article and you can't get it right, pay someone else to do it. It's probably about $150, and you might have to buy a stem but for me, things started making a lot more sense after I'd done that and had a better feel for what I was going for.

You can (and should, or at least it helped me a lot) take a systematic approach to tuning your suspension too. That only costs time.  What kind of spring is in the Epicon? I think I remember it being air...


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Oops, you asked what gloves I wear. Lately, Specialized Wire Tap. They fit my hands well, are full-fingered and unpadded, and the touch screen thing on the finger tip doesn't seem to hurt anything. I was wearing Fox Dirt Paws, but their sizing got inconsistent and my latest pair gives me blisters, though they do fit over a liner. I've also liked Pearl Izumi gloves, but only have padded ones, which means I don't use them off-road.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Rotating the brake levers somewhere around 45 degrees below the horizontal will definitely help if you've got them sticking more or less straight forward. I also find that setting up your brakes so the lever engages fairly close to the bar is very beneficial, particularly if your riding them a lot (on my DH bike, my brakes don't lock up until they're maybe 1/4" from hitting my grips - helps a TON with avoiding riding stiff-armed. 

I don't like padded gloves, but I always use full finger ones. I usually just get a set of light 'mechanics gloves' from the local hardware shop (same place I get my riding glasses).


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> IMHO, ergonomic grips and padded gloves just mask the problem. I use neither.


Oh ok.. Because as far how I feel during and after a ride, my palms are the only issues. My back, arms and legs feel fine even after a long arduous ride.

I did a DIY bike fit with myself and a mirror. My knees are vertically aligned with the end of my crankshaft. I think this takes care of saddle fore-aft position. When I extend my leg almost fully down, my foot is flat and level on the pedal. I think this takes care of saddle height.

The one thing I'm not 100% sure of is the angle of my back when seated on the saddle with my hands resting on the grips and with a very slight bend on the elbows. Is a 45 degree angle OK for XC and very mild trail riding? 



AndrwSwitch said:


> What kind of spring is in the Epicon? I think I remember it being air...


Yep, its an air fork. Its set to 120mm now. And 90psi gives me around 25% sag.



slapheadmofo said:


> Rotating the brake levers somewhere around 45 degrees below the horizontal will definitely help if you've got them sticking more or less straight forward. I also find that setting up your brakes so the lever engages fairly close to the bar is very beneficial, particularly if your riding them a lot.


Tried that just now. If you look at my bike from the side, my levers used to be at the 8 o'clock position. Now they're at 7 o'clock. I also adjusted its free stroke and reach to what's comfortable for me. I do feel a slight improvement - it takes longer for my palms to get numb.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You shouldn't need a mirror. I mean, if it's a helpful way for you to start, wtf. But you're not done.

The knee over pedal spindle thing is descriptive of a certain kind of rider doing a certain kind of riding. It doesn't necessarily apply to you. So just try my little experiment - put your pedals at 9 and 3, minimize the weight on your hands, and lift your butt off the saddle. What happens? When you sit back down, are you still in the right place?

I find my body has a very strong tendency to a certain riding position. Either I match my saddle to where my hips are or I sit on the wrong part of my saddle. Because my hips go where they're gonna go. (Also, they don't lie. )

Play with your saddle height too. It sounds like it's, at least, close. Try raising it or lowering it about an eighth of an inch. If you don't feel anything, try more. The point is to get it wrong in both directions. That should help you get a feel for what that is, and also find your personal optimal.

As far as back position, I think it depends on your power output, core strength and flexibility. Someone who's just cruising will tend to sit pretty upright and put a lot of weight on the saddle. Beats numb hands! Someone who's really hammering it out needs to get his CG pretty far forward to react the torque he's exerting on the crank. So he'll hinge forward at the hips. Getting into that position requires some flexibility and stabilizing it requires some core strength.

If you ski, I think it's a fairly similar feeling. I see other people liken a good riding position to something in basketball or martial arts, but I don't do either of those.

That's kind of the point of the Peter White article, though - a bike fits when it feels right. A lot of the guidelines floating around the 'net, and in training manuals before that, don't really acknowledge feel or individual differences. I think they're fine if they help people start closer to their best final positions, but when people start treating them like hard and fast rules handed down by God, I think they've outlived their usefulness. They're really just observations of professional riders who may or may not have something in common with people on bikes on general and you in particular.


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

Can't add much to Andrew's great post.

Your saddle tilt could be causing your hips to lean forward, putting extra weight on your hands & wrists. So you may want to play with your tilt a little. I would try tilting it back just a bit and then ride it for a bit. See if you are pulling yourself forward a bunch (feels like your sliding off the back of the saddle), or if your hand pain goes away. It's kind of like Andrew's advise on the height. Small changes since you're close. But you almost have to go to far to exaggerate the effects. 

Also, your saddle my not be helping depending on it's design.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

elco said:


> Oh ok.. Because as far how I feel during and after a ride, my palms are the only issues. My back, arms and legs feel fine even after a long arduous ride.
> 
> I did a DIY bike fit with myself and a mirror. My knees are vertically aligned with the end of my crankshaft. I think this takes care of saddle fore-aft position. When I extend my leg almost fully down, my foot is flat and level on the pedal. I think this takes care of saddle height.
> 
> ...


Cool. As mentioned, don't be afraid to mess with it until you get it to where it feels most natural to you. Everybody's a little different.

Also agree on the saddle tilt, as well as possibly the make/model being important. 
Same goes for grips - my hands cramp like crazy when I use grips that are too fat and just plain hurt if they're too skinny and/or hard.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> put your pedals at 9 and 3, minimize the weight on your hands, and lift your butt off the saddle. What happens? When you sit back down, are you still in the right place?


Yup. Pretty much in the same spot on the saddle. 

I also played with saddle height. Raising it makes pedaling up an incline a tad easier, but puts more weight on my hands. So I tried raising the saddle and raising the stem by putting a spacer underneath. I'm still trying out different spacer heights, though - to shift my weight away from my hands.

Wait, should successfully doing a "look Ma, no hands" matter?

I find myself having to slide forward on the saddle and have my knees closer to each other in order to maintain balance when taking my hands off the grips. Otherwise the front wheel gets very twitchy and likes to turn on its own.



mjydrafter said:


> Your saddle tilt could be causing your hips to lean forward, putting extra weight on your hands & wrists. So you may want to play with your tilt a little. I would try tilting it back just a bit and then ride it for a bit. See if you are pulling yourself forward a bunch (feels like your sliding off the back of the saddle), or if your hand pain goes away. It's kind of like Andrew's advise on the height. Small changes since you're close. But you almost have to go to far to exaggerate the effects.


I also played with saddle tilt. Got it at "zero" according to the angle meter on my seat post. Here's where I'm most comfortable. Zero pain on the butt regardless of riding time. And my saddle is cheap. It's got the "Giant" logo on top but underneath it says "Selle Royal." It came with the built bike. Its got that "love channel, too. Its one part that I have a hard time justifying an upgrade for, but I'm not closing the door on this. 



slapheadmofo said:


> Same goes for grips - my hands cramp like crazy when I use grips that are too fat and just plain hurt if they're too skinny and/or hard.


Excellent point. My grips are these:









I got them because I have small hands. They are very light but very very thin. Exceedingly thin. And the foam they used is also very soft. Perhaps its what's causing my hands to get numb after just 20 minutes of riding?

What grips do you use? Or what can you recommend?


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

Grip force and weight on the bars are the two biggest factors. Tight gloves could cause this too. I don't like grips like that and prefer rubber. Those seem to have a "twist" action due to being so soft. You may grip with less force if your grip is more "sticky" and you feel you have better hold on the bars. How long is your stem? To far forward will increase weight on the palms as well as causing your shoulders and back issues.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

elco said:


> Yup. Pretty much in the same spot on the saddle.
> 
> I also played with saddle height. Raising it makes pedaling up an incline a tad easier, but puts more weight on my hands. So I tried raising the saddle and raising the stem by putting a spacer underneath. I'm still trying out different spacer heights, though - to shift my weight away from my hands.
> 
> ...


Do you have to slide forward to be able to take your hands off the bars? Or is it purely to stabilize the front wheel?

They both tell you something useful, but for now, I'm just interested in your bike not hurting you. Anyway, you might try sliding your saddle forward a quarter inch or so.

The point of the no hands experiment is that I think people really need to be centered over their pedals. We've evolved to have long-term load-bearing ability in our legs, not our arms. Getting on a bike doesn't change that. And while a person can get accustomed to all kinds of bad things, it'll always be a limiter and never be efficient.

Lately, I'm using Renthal Kevlar on my 'A' bike. I still have ODI Ruffians on my old one. I guess I like the Renthals a little better.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Lots of different grips out there of all shapes and sizes, but I like something along these lines


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Do you have to slide forward to be able to take your hands off the bars? Or is it purely to stabilize the front wheel?


If I don't slide forwards, the front wheel doesn't stay pointed forwards when I take my hands off the grips. But if I slide myself forwards on the saddle, the front wheel stays pointed forwards, more or less. Perhaps fork length has something to do with this? Its at 120mm now.



AndrwSwitch said:


> They both tell you something useful, but for now, I'm just interested in your bike not hurting you. Anyway, you might try sliding your saddle forward a quarter inch or so.


Thanks for that, Andrew. Much appreciated.  I slid my saddle as far forward as it can go. And after adding an additional spacer under my stem, my hands don't get numb as much. There is still some numbness, but I'm beginning to think it is caused by the thin foam of my current grips.



AndrwSwitch said:


> Lately, I'm using Renthal Kevlar on my 'A' bike. I still have ODI Ruffians on my old one. I guess I like the Renthals a little better.


Let me look them up. Hopefully the LBS here where I live carry them in stock. 



slapheadmofo said:


> Lots of different grips out there of all shapes and sizes, but I like something along these lines


I've been hearing good things about Lizard Skins grips. Let me check them out. Thanks!


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You might hop on a smaller bike.

How tall are you? How big is your bike?

While fork length is a part of the puzzle, I think front-center distance - the horizontal distance from the front hub to the bottom bracket - is the real driver of weight distribution over the front wheel.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You might hop on a smaller bike.
> 
> How tall are you? How big is your bike?
> 
> While fork length is a part of the puzzle, I think front-center distance - the horizontal distance from the front hub to the bottom bracket - is the real driver of weight distribution over the front wheel.


Good point. I'm 5'7" and my frame is the "S" size.










If it helps, here's the frame geometry.










That last column is their recommended rider height, which for the "S" size works out to 5'6" to 5"10". In retrospect, I should have gotten the "XS" size. But since its already here, I'd like to make the most of what I've got. 

So I've got my seat as far forward is at can go. My stem is still what came with the built bike, so its 90mm long. My current bars are 690mm wide. I was thinking of getting a shorter stem, but I'm not sure if this would have any effect on my hand numbness. Would it?

And could a shorter stem would improve my ability to do a "look Ma, no hands." 

I'm visiting a few nearby LBS later, going to look for fatter grips than what I have on my bike. I recall one guy who works at an LBS recommend the ESI Chunky. Is this a good one?


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

My favorite fatter grips are the Oury's. I have them on a couple of my MTB's and even have them on my little motorcycle ('74 Suzuki TC-185). 

I have run them on my main bike since the early '90s.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I thought you bought this bike used? You shouldn't take much of a hit re-selling it. I'm not necessarily saying you should do that, at least not right away. But I let myself be overly committed to a too-big road bike for thirteen years. When I finally gave it to my brother and set up my 'cross bike, which fits me, for road riding, I kicked myself for waiting so long. I was never able to get that road bike to be comfortable and handle right at the same time.

Before we get ahead of ourselves, when you make a big production about riding no hands, do you mean you're actually sitting upright, and taking your hands away from the bars? For me, the test only makes sense if all I do is take them off the bars while maintaining the same riding position. The point is to see if I'm relying on my arms to keep myself stable in a certain riding position. So if I sit upright, take my hands more than an inch or do away from the bars, or do anything else to change my CG, that's not testing my riding position and bike setup anymore. At least, unless it's because I have to to take my hands off in the first place.

I think a lot of people also find they have two somewhat distinct modes of sitting a bike comfortably: very upright, like a cruiser, and in a lower, more athletic position. The cruiser position, IMO, isn't suitable for anything but low-effort cruising. It's a good thing to be aware of because sometimes people get into a process of setting up their bikes more and more upright, and if their starting point is somewhere in the no-man's-land between athletic and cruisy, they're probably headed in the wrong direction.

Can you post a pic of the bike? Not a catalog shot, but as it's set up right now.

You also might talk to your friend about it. Having another pair of eyes can really help.

Finally, paying someone to set up your bike is an option, and can really help if you've never ridden a bike that's dialed in to your body. You alluded to bring in New York. Not Manhattan, by any chance?


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

elco said:


> ....
> 
> Does this matter? If so, what is ideal? And what would the implications/effects be on a trail?


Not really.. The reason is that a riders weight is 6 to 10 times the bike so what is important is how the rider moves their weight around. That said all thing equal a very experienced rider can feel subtle difference in weight of the front end and might impact the feel slightly.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

At 5'7, a small most likely should be fine for you.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

mjydrafter said:


> My favorite fatter grips are the Oury's. I have them on a couple of my MTB's and even have them on my little motorcycle ('74 Suzuki TC-185).
> 
> I have run them on my main bike since the early '90s.


There's a LBS here that sells Oury grips. Let me check them out. Thanks. 



AndrwSwitch said:


> I thought you bought this bike used? You shouldn't take much of a hit re-selling it. I'm not necessarily saying you should do that, at least not right away.


Yes, I got my bike used. The seller had an "XS" sized bike that he was also letting go of, but it was a much older model. It was still using V-brakes. So I passed on it.



AndrwSwitch said:


> Before we get ahead of ourselves, when you make a big production about riding no hands, do you mean you're actually sitting upright, and taking your hands away from the bars? For me, the test only makes sense if all I do is take them off the bars while maintaining the same riding position. The point is to see if I'm relying on my arms to keep myself stable in a certain riding position. So if I sit upright, take my hands more than an inch or do away from the bars, or do anything else to change my CG, that's not testing my riding position and bike setup anymore. At least, unless it's because I have to to take my hands off in the first place.


From my riding position, I can take my hands off the grips without moving any other part of my body and the front wheel remains straight. It doesn't steer itself. I can control where the bike goes by shifting my weight left or right. The reason I mentioned riding with no hands is I find myself envious of those who can grab the water bottle from the frame, sit upright and take a drink without the front wheel twitching around and steering itself. I can't seem to do this on my bike. :???:



AndrwSwitch said:


> Can you post a pic of the bike? Not a catalog shot, but as it's set up right now.


Let me take some photos, then I'll put them up on my next post. What part of the bike should I focus on?



JoePAz said:


> Not really.. The reason is that a riders weight is 6 to 10 times the bike so what is important is how the rider moves their weight around. That said all thing equal a very experienced rider can feel subtle difference in weight of the front end and might impact the feel slightly.


Yup, I pretty much got that now. Thanks, Joe. 



slapheadmofo said:


> At 5'7, a small most likely should be fine for you.


Yup, it should be. I only wish it was a 16-incher as most "small" sized frames from Giant (as well as most other manufacturers) are. My "small" is a 17-incher.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Riding no hands takes a little practice, but you'll get it. Don't go too slow; you want the wheels spinning fast enough so they want to stand up, keep pedalling (a very slight uphill slope might help as it'll give you something to pedal against without having to worry about gaining unanticipated speed), get upright so your weight is centered on the saddle, and steer from the hips. The bike will track better when your weight is back a bit than it will when you're leaned forward.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Riding no hands takes a little practice, but you'll get it. Don't go too slow; you want the wheels spinning fast enough so they want to stand up, keep pedalling (a very slight uphill slope might help as it'll give you something to pedal against without having to worry about gaining unanticipated speed), get upright so your weight is centered on the saddle, and steer from the hips. The bike will track better when your weight is back a bit than it will when you're leaned forward.


That's what I find weird. Let's say I'm riding my bike. If I just take my hands off the grips without moving any other part of my body, the front wheel stays pointed forwards. But when I sit up straight, the front wheel starts twitching left and right.

Does the ability to ride upright with no hands matter? Or not really?


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

The ability to ride upright with no hands is only related to the ability to ride upright with no hands.

What I'm trying to get at here is that in a normal riding position, you should be balanced over the bottom bracket. A normal riding position is actually an attribute of your body, not the bike. But bad bike setup can get in the way.

I feel like most of my bike handling comes from where I'm putting my hips. From a certain perspective, the entire bike is unsprung mass, and my legs are the vehicle's suspension. My arms aren't really strong enough or resilient enough to support my weight for a couple hours of mountain biking. I think we're starting to go off on a tangent - what I'm trying to impart here is that when you ride a bike, you need to do it in a position that works for you. Since you interface with the bike at a few places, those places need to be located correctly for your body. If it ruins the bike's handling to do that, it's the wrong bike.

Just remember, this is a sport and your body is the only measuring stick that matters - everything else is secondary. That's what I like about the Peter White article or any good bike fit, actually.

If things are set up right in terms of the bike not screwing up your riding position and the balance being correct, it should be no big deal to take your hands off the bars and your butt off the saddle.

As far as pictures, the whole bike, from the side, from the flattest angle you can come up with. It's great when people photograph them in front of roll-up doors, but not a huge deal if you don't have one.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

AndrwSwitch said:


> As far as pictures, the whole bike, from the side, from the flattest angle you can come up with. It's great when people photograph them in front of roll-up doors, but not a huge deal if you don't have one.


Oops sorry I don't have roll-up doors, but here's a photo of my bike:









On a side note, the frame decals are really like that. Here's how the bike originally looked: Giant Mountain Bike Atx750 | DHgate.com

I'm using a zero-offset seat post. From the above photo, the angle appears to be pointing downwards, but for me it feels comfortable for long rides. I could adjust the nose up a tad or adjust the saddle forwards a bit more, or both if you think it would help. There is still some room for adjustment.









And these are my bars: 









I know 680mm isn't very wide, but I'm not a big guy. I rode a friend's bike with 740mm Easton Haven bars and it felt slightly uncomfortable. 

Anyway, based on your advice _(thank you, by the way)_ and the valuable information on this thread, I think I have narrowed down the reasons why my hands get numb after 20 minutes of riding.
1. Grips are too thin
2. Handlebar is too low
3. Saddle is too high or pointed down too much
4. Stem is too long (currently 90mm)
5. I ride without gloves
6. Brake lever rotation needs adjustment

I do ride with my elbows relaxed and bent. So which one do you suppose could it be?

And I wish the Peter White article had some photos or a YouTube video. It would be really helpful.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Have you actually tried changing anything? Getting it right takes some iteration...

Do you pedal continuously when you ride? What's your cadence like?

How about a couple more pics of the bars, as they're currently set up?


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## mjydrafter (Aug 20, 2014)

It's kind of difficult to tell, but it looks like you could rotate the bars (looking at the pic) back a bit. You will have to re-adjust your controls, but it looks like that may help your hand issues.

You have a ton of extra fork steerer to play with, I would start swapping spacers and get the bars up to where you like them. With the bars rotated and a little higher it should put a bit more of your weight back on the saddle.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mjydrafter said:


> It's kind of difficult to tell, but it looks like you could rotate the bars (looking at the pic) back a bit. You will have to re-adjust your controls, but it looks like that may help your hand issues.
> 
> You have a ton of extra fork steerer to play with, I would start swapping spacers and get the bars up to where you like them. With the bars rotated and a little higher it should put a bit more of your weight back on the saddle.


That's the first thing I saw when I looked at the bike pic. The bars/grips sweep upwards. That's going to put some funny angles on your hands/wrists. All that's necessary would be to rotate the bars back so that it's more backsweep and that the grips are more level. Play around with it to see what's more comfy.

For the saddle angle, I use an actual level on mine, and compress the padding on the saddle. There's usually a little more in the back than in the front. For a saddle that flares up in the back like yours, "level" usually looks nose-down a little. Yours is close. I tend to prefer saddles with a flatter profile. If they flare up in the back, I find that I have a tendency to slide down towards the nose, and trying to push myself back up all the time tends to put MORE strain on my upper body.


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## shortnangry (Nov 16, 2014)

It's hard for me to see but it looks like your controls are almost pointing straight down. Once you have everything else set (stem length, seat position, handlebar sweep, etc) loosen the brake levers and shifter pods loose enough to move but not so loose that they'll move with a bit of weight from your hands. Bring the brake levers parallel to the ground. Sit on the bike (have someone hold the bike up or brace yourself). Lay your hands on top of the lever and rotate them downwards toward the ground until it's comfortable when you're in a riding position (I also close my eyes so nothing visual throws off what I'm feeling). Tighten them up and you're set. Move the shifter pods snug against the lever and tighten. This way you know your brake levers are in the best position for your hands when you're riding. I can't see in the photo, but it may also help to move the brake levers inboard from the grips so that joint on your pointer closest to the tip is positioned at the curved portion of the lever. If your levers are flush with the grip you're not getting the best reach on your lever. 

Thicker grips will not help your hand pain unless it is due to excessive vibration and chatter as would be experienced on a downhill run. That shouldn't be an issue with your setup. Were your bars cut to 680mm or were they stock? If cut they may be over stiff because they were designed to be run longer. I've generally found that hand fatigue is more often due to grips that are too thick or gloves with a padded palm, rather than grips that are thinner. The thick grips or padded palm can cause you to over tighten your grip. Try Mechanix gloves. You can get them at any auto supply or hardware store. Cheaper than bike gloves and wear and vent great. Thin leather palm gives good grip. They are the best "bike" gloves I've seen. 

You have a ton of room on your steerer tube. You can try raising your stem by swapping spacers from above the stem to below the stem. Once you have the setup you like, cut the excess off (you'll need to reset the star but inside). You don't want something extra on the bike you may eat in a crash. 

Your seat is pushed all the back on the post. Try moving it forward a tad and see if you like the reach position better. Also play with the angle. Some people go for flat, others like a very slight up angle to the nose. You can also definitely shorten up the stem. Try out a 50mm and see how you like it. Also 680 mm bars are narrow but current trail "standards". If you didn't like 740 after a bunch of rides try 720. This is still narrow by current trends but may work well for you. The wider bar, in addition to affording more control, will open you chest and shoulders a bit and change the angle of your hands and elbows. 

The other thing to bear in mind is that the bars are not really there to hold up the rider. They're there to control the bike. As your core gets stronger you can hold yourself up more rather than relying on the bars. That too should lighten the load on your hands. 

Beyond the ton if good advice that many have given in this thread, it's pretty hard to diagnose fit issues at a distance. If you're still having issues have your LBS help out (assuming they're good) or a knowledge riding buddy. Trailheads are some of the best classrooms around whatever your experience level. Typically riders love talking bikes and helping other riders.


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

First of all, many thanks to Andrew, mjydrafter, Harold and shortnangry. Your tips and advice are helpful and much appreciated! :thumbsup:

So here's what I did yesterday afternoon:
1. Raised the stem by transferring the spacers above it to below it.
2. Moved the saddle forward and adjusted tilt to flat and level.
3. Loosened the stem to rotate the bars so that it is level.

Here are some photos.

First, here's how the bars are now rotated with respect to the stem:









And here's a side-view photo.









It may look like the bar edges are drooping down but that's only because I photographed them from a bit high up. They're actually flat and level now. No more upwards sweep at the edges.

Oh and I didn't touch the levers. Rotating the bars put them at a nice position and it feels better on my wrist. 

The stem is also higher now. This shifted my body weight back a bit and cycling while seated doesn't numb my hands as much as it used to.










They still get numb, though, and I think its because of the many climbs in my local terrain. Shifting my body weight forwards makes climbing easier but puts pressure on the nerves in my hands. I'm still working on building core strength to climb slopes with as little weight on the bars as possible. It's really tough! 

Please excuse the mess on the bars. Aside from the Shimano iSpec-B levers and the remote lock out switch of the fork, I have a bike light, a cyclometer on a Barfly attachment and a bell. I often do evening exercise rides in nearby village roads and I find the bell and light to be absolutely essential. 










And here's how my saddle is currently adjusted:









Its also nicely level now. Feels comfortable. My butt doesn't slide anywhere while riding. And when I stand up on the pedals then sit down, my butt lands at the same place all the time. 

So overall, the adjustments you guys recommended work very well. I feel the bike is more dialed in. Easier to handle, too. Thanks, guys. 

And to answer Andrew's question, my cadence is actually slow. I'd say 10 to 15% slower than what I see from other mountain bikers on the same terrain.

I think its because of these:

















My 48-36-26 chainrings have more teeth than usual and at 175mm, my crank arms are clearly too long for me (I'm 5'7"). But that's how I got the bike from its original owner. I don't mind the big chainrings but I feel the need to get shorter cranks. 165mm, perhaps? I'm just afraid of the cost. XT cranks aren't exactly cheap. Or maybe its something I can just live with?

One tiny advantage is that I can keep up with road cycles (some, not all). My friends who's bikes have the usual amount of teeth on their chainrings have a hard time doing so. Not very useful on the trails, though. :lol:

So here are a few last things I haven't done yet:
1. Getting a shorter stem (currently at 90 mm)
2. Getting gloves (I currently ride without them)

I could probably borrow a stem from a friend. What length would you recommend? 75mm?

Too bad the local bike shops in my area don't have a "try before you buy" promo on gloves. When I asked, they said they can't resell gloves once my perspiration is on them.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Try to make future changes one at a time. It means you can tell what each change's effect is.

Does your computer support a cadence sensor? Can it upload to a home computer?

Crank arm size is a little tricky. In the range that are produced commercially, it's pretty much impossible to prove a correlation between people's heights, pedaling styles, power outputs, whatever and the arm size. On the other hand, riders do have individual preference sometimes. (Some can't tell the difference.) Maybe hop on a bike with 170s and see if you can even tell. It'll be hard to find a bike with 165s. It's not a popular size outside a velodrome.

Do you run out of gears on climbs?

TBH, demoing gloves sounds excessive to me. My experience has been that if they fit in the shop, they fit.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I tend to prefer gloves that have a "gap" in the padding near my wrist at the middle of my palm. Nerves run through the wrist there and a gap in the padding (plus fairly thick padding - I tend to prefer "roadie" gloves most of the time) helps with any numbness. I do have some thin mtb full fingered gloves, too that I wear when it's a little cooler out. I absolutely MUST have soft grips to be comfy with these. I also use ODI Rogue grips on both of my mtb's. They are quite thick and soft for rubber grips. Keep in mind - I have pretty long fingers, so I don't have any problems gripping my handlebars with all that extra padding in there. My wife has pretty small hands and she has to use a much thinner grip. She uses ODI Ruffians, but she still wears a more thickly padded glove with them for padding.

I can't tell too much about your grips, but I will say that I really don't like super thin grips like most bikes come with. Are yours foam? Foam grips are soft and give you good control, but they aren't very good for vibration absorption, especially as they get older and worn. 

Something thick and soft might help your comfort level. Silicone grips are pretty popular these days and are pretty inexpensive and cushy.

Ergon also makes comfy grips. I don't like the ones with the big platforms on them, but they have 2 models (the GA1 and GE1) that are more traditional, but with a little shaping. I had GA1's for quite a few years and liked them. I switched to ODI because I wanted to reuse my clamps, and Ergon didn't have just the grip part I could buy, without clamps. I really liked them otherwise. They switched to a plastic clamp now, too

As for your cadence, it really all comes down to the gearing you choose to use in a given situation. Having the power to push a big gear is nice, but to save that power for when you absolutely need it, pedaling a higher cadence helps out. It takes some practice to get used to a higher cadence, because initially, your body is going to want to bounce all over the place because you can't pedal that way smoothly. It also takes some practice to pedal smoothly with platform pedals. The nice thing about cadence is that as you become stronger, more fit, and improve your technique, you can maintain the same cadence most of the time, but moving to higher gears. OR you can increase your cadence in the same gear. Being flexible like that can really help out. I remember when I was a new rider and I had a big problem stalling out on steep climbs. Poor technique combined with not being a very strong rider was bad news. Now that I'm stronger and more skilled, I can both push a bigger gear uphill AND at a higher cadence than I used to. Long hills that used to stymie me I can practically relax and just motor on up at a high cadence, or for short ones, I can push a big gear, stand up, and power up them. It takes a much bigger hill than it used to to force me to get off and walk (and I don't stall and tip over anymore).


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## elco (Dec 21, 2014)

Change one thing at a time. Got it. Hehe.. I guess I'm in kind of a hurry to resolve my hand numbness issues and finally enjoy a long epic ride. But I see your point. How will I know which change improved the situation if I do them simultaneously? So yeah. From now on its one change at a time. Thanks, Andrew. 

Unfortunately my cyclometer doesn't support a cadence sensor. If I do find one, what would be an effective way to interpret the readings? Is there a particular cadence I should shoot for? Or would this depend on incline, terrain and what gear I'm in at the moment? 

And about the gloves, I have friends who bought gloves that fit nicely in the shop, only to discover a deal-breaking flaw during a ride. Things like sewing seams cutting into skin, gel pads in the wrong place, irritating squishiness or stickiness when wet with perspiration, lack of ventilation and/or some sort of general discomfort in one way or another. They tell me they've usually bought 2 or 3 pairs of gloves before they found one they really liked. 

Personally, I'm not looking forward to having pairs of initially promising but eventually uncomfortable gloves collecting dust on my shelves. I'd like to find a way to avoid the expense of trial and error. 

Thanks for the tips, Nate. My Crank Brothers Cobalt grips are made of foam, and thin foam at that. I'm looking at the Ergon GS1's but I'm open to suggestions. Lemme check the local bike shops. 

OFF TOPIC: I enjoy reading your blog. Just curious, there are quite a few GPS apps for Apple and Android phones that tell you your car's horsepower, could there be one for cyclists? Tell me how many watts of power I'm cranking out?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

When I am checking out gloves at the shop, I put them on, then go over to one of the display bikes and put my hands on the grips. I don't go so far as wearing them on a test ride. That's unnecessary. My method hasn't steered me wrong yet. If I know I want ventilation, then I look for those features when I'm trying on gloves. Never had an issue with seams on gloves, but they are important to me in other pieces of gear...and I've never failed to notice one in the wrong location by trying something on in a dressing room.

It's really bad form to get clothes nasty at a shop and then put them back on the shelf. This is why you just don't try on bike shorts sans-undies, the way you'd ride with them. 

I don't know about your local shops, but none of the ones in my area actually stock the grips that I like. Nor does anyone stock the sorts of pedals that I like.

As for your question about phone apps - I don't use my phone on the bike. Lots of reasons I don't think it's a good idea. I do have my Garmin data sent to Strava, and Strava calculates an estimated power. It's not a very good estimate of ACTUAL power, but it gives you an idea of how the effort from one ride compares to another.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

elco said:


> ..
> 
> Does the ability to ride upright with no hands matter? Or not really?


I can't ride without at least one hand. That goes for my mtn bike and my road bike. It is more due to my confidence (lack of) than anything else.

As for the bike... I am 5' 7" an ride a 17" frame on 26" HT. I use 660mm bars with a 100mm stem and they are big enough for me. I also run my seat higher than my bars. Again that feels good for me. I also run 175mm cranks, but with a 44/32/22 crankset and 11-34 rear cassette. I never have run out of gears on the top end and in 22/34 I can be hard to stay upright going that slow, but it sure is handy on some climbs.

The thing that stood out for me is that you said you have pressure on your hands when you lean forward to climb. That should not happen. When I lean forward to climb I am putting light pressure on the bars. My weight is forward, but I am not resting much on the bars. In fact the harder I pedal they less I need my hands to support my upper body. The harder I pedal the more the pedaling action serves to support my upper body. My hands are their to guild the front week not put put weight on it.

If the trail really steep I will slide my rear forward and so I am sitting on the very tip of the saddle. This not really comfortable as it feels like the seat is going places it should not, but this for two reasons. 1) short duration, 2) the more power I put down the less I need even the seat to support me.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

The conventional wisdom is that someone who's riding athletically should pedal at least 90 rpm in the saddle. People tend to have a much lower cadence out of the saddle - more like 60 or 70. Which makes sense, it's a totally different rhythm.

I enjoy being able to look at a histogram if I'm trying to learn something about rates and a ride. Cadence, heart rate, power, speed, whatever. Averages aren't so great because if I've done a significant amount of climbing out of the saddle or coasting, the average will include that. But if I look at a histogram, the big spikes make it abundantly clear how I'm choosing cadence. They can be much better feedback for other measurable aspects of a ride too.

I use a Garmin and a piece of software called Golden Cheetah.

If you don't want to get into that level of nerdiness, you can also get useful feedback just by checking your cadence when you're cruising along in a steady state. You'll naturally ride at your selected cadence at those times. If it's below 90, try to pedal a little faster for a minute or so. Keep practicing that, and your selected cadence will creep up. Since you have a bike computer, assuming its speed is reasonably stable, like from a wheel sensor, a good way to do this is to shift down one gear and try to maintain the same speed.

While it's nice to have a cadence sensor, you can also use a watch with a second hand or seconds display. Count the number of times your right knee comes up in fifteen seconds and multiply by four. That's close enough to be useful. It'll split your attention some, so use your judgment about doing it somewhere safe. I find that even on a trail ride, I usually have time for drills and intervals if I want to sneak them in. On the way to the trail head and climbs on logging roads are often good times. Those were never going to be the fun part anyway.


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