# Anyone riding Gates belt drive??



## vindiggitydog (Aug 6, 2008)

Just noticed the new 2011 Raleigh XXIX with the belt drive!! Looks like they have taken it up another notch!! Still some lame decals, but a nice raw clearcoat finish. Funny how they go that route, while Haro drops all SS because of "drop in SS sales nationwide". Anyway, anyone riding and digging the Gates BD??:thumbsup:


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I am. No I don't really like it for various reasons. One being a load popping noise coming from the rear cog. Which I'm in the middle of fixing. I the belt wants to ride up the rear cog when the frame flexes under hard load.(ie climbing) the belt doesn't skip but at about 9 o'clock snaps back down on the cog thus the snap/pop noise. So now I have to make a tensioner because nobody makes a tensioner you can buy for a belt drive. Oh yea also its way over priced.

Tim


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## pitbull592 (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm debating between a new trek fisher rig or a norco judan bd here's a thread I came across with some good belt info:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=568496

Since, I already have a nice fs chain driven bike, it's not much of a risk to me, but imo I wouldn't do it if it's your only bike. I'm leaning more towards the rig now anyway.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

I had a gates belt drive bike , albeit a commuter. It was nice not to have chain maintenance and it was SUPER quiet, but there were a few things that I didn't like that led me to sell the bike:


Tension is very important. If it's loose the belt will slip under heavy load.
Alignment is very important. If it's off, pedaling efficiency is poor and noisy.
Special frame design is necessary, which limits an "upgrade path".
There are not many parts out there for customization, and the ones that exist are expensive
You must carry a couple extra tools that are not usually found on a multi-tool just to change a flat.

So in short, it was a cool bike and very smooth ride but I can't recommend the belt drive. If you have a lot of cash, it might be fun to play with and the extra cost of an uncommon product wouldn't deter you. I think that belt drives are a great idea and I hope they gain some steam. If that happens then more products will be available for them and the designs will improve. It's kind of like the 29er market, it's just going to take a few years before everyone starts making one. I would wait until that point.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> ... One being a load popping noise coming from the rear cog.
> 
> ...So now I have to make a tensioner because nobody makes a tensioner you can buy for a belt drive. Oh yea also its way over priced.


What size cogs are you using? It looks like the smaller ones may be prone to this.

Spot have a flange for the rear which may help - although like a tensioner it is a kludge type fix.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

VeloBike
I have to run a 39 in the front (frame clearance issues) and a 24 in the rear (its the only one that Gates offers for a Alfine hub). I have been looking for a way to get a g-boxx.com part number 10001400 CD-RDM Snubber. I'm in the U.S. and they are in Germany. I've sent them some e-mails but have got no responses. I don't speak German....so... I may copy their design. I've tried to stiffen the frame with expandable Urethane foam. Not the stuff you find in a can at a hard ware store but some serious 16lb stuff. I'm awaiting some parts to finish the build and will try it out but I have my doubts.........My next thing to do is build a new frame with the stiffest stays I can find. 

Later
Tim


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## cbrock450 (Apr 18, 2008)

I had some issues at first with the belt popping but once I got the chainline dialed and swapped out cogs it was perfect
I originally had the 39 tooth chain ring and in my opinion there is not enough surface are on it to distribute the torque and it would pop. They swapped it out to a 46 x 28 and that made all the difference! I weigh 190 pounds, which I am guessing had something to do with it as well.

If you are someone who likes to change the gearing on your bike all the time.....this is not the setup you are looking for. Stick with a chain.
The setup is expensive but if the belt really lasts 10,000 miles than it's going to be worth it for me.

I don't need to bring any extra tools to change a flat, all i need is a 8 mm allen head because it's a bolt on rear axle



vindiggitydog said:


> Just noticed the new 2011 Raleigh XXIX with the belt drive!! Looks like they have taken it up another notch!! Still some lame decals, but a nice raw clearcoat finish. Funny how they go that route, while Haro drops all SS because of "drop in SS sales nationwide". Anyway, anyone riding and digging the Gates BD??:thumbsup:


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Don`t think the belt drive for bicycles is as new and ground breaking as everyone is giving it credit for. Yesterday I saw someone riding around on a vintage belt drive bike. Thing had 16" wheels, the belt was yellowish and frame appeared to be about a 70s something based off the construction and patina it had developed. Would the bike I saw work off road, most likely not but that is not the point. 

If Gates BD system is looking to be sucessful they have quite a bit of maturing to do. That being said one of my friend is running their system and has been issue free over the past two seasons. I have not seen one issue stemming from the belt on his bike yet. If there is to be one complaint it would be from the front belt ring and crank interface. The bolts continually work themselves loose even with locktite. Don`t see that as a belt issue though.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> VeloBike
> I have to run a 39 in the front (frame clearance issues) and a 24 in the rear (its the only one that Gates offers for a Alfine hub). I have been looking for a way to get a g-boxx.com part number 10001400 CD-RDM Snubber....


You can rig up a tensioner along the lines of a STS using a flat pulley (eg skateboard wheel)

I did a few experiments along this line.

This one is a modified YESS tensioner, and it worked on a very flexy bike.

It is even better to make up a flat arm to position the pulley at 7 o'clock. Set it at about 1mm above the belt so it only engages when the belt tries to ride.











crux said:


> Don`t think the belt drive for bicycles is as new and ground breaking as everyone is giving it credit for. Yesterday I saw someone riding around on a vintage belt drive bike....
> 
> If Gates BD system is looking to be sucessful they have quite a bit of maturing to do....


It's definitely not new. I've been experimenting with belt drive for a long time - using mainly 8mm pitch belts - but Gates are the first to introduce a system that actually works reliably. Using the 11mm pitch allows a narrower belt which is more alignment tolerant than 8mm (but still fussy).

In my opinion all the problems I have heard of with Gates belt drive come back to bike design problems rather than a weakness in the actual belt drive.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Velobike
I've seen pics of your set up before but......I'm using a Alfine 8 hub. I have to deal with anti rotation washers and a 3/8 axle and a very narrow 42mm chain line. So I can not run a 46 tooth front ring as it would cut my chain stay apart. Really no room what so ever. If I had a wider chain line say a 50-52 no problems. But with a 42 big problems. Also I can't respace the Alfine as Shimano in their almighty wisdom decided to make the threads based on British BSC thread which is 3/8 26 TPI and 7/16 26 TPI. Like say an old Triumph or BSA motorcycle. The lock nut on the drive side is 3/8 and the lock nut on the nondrive is 7/16. Yes I can get taps and dies $$$$$ to make new spacers but the shifting mechanism is on the drive side and to be honest I can push it over 1mm maybe 1.5 but that would be it. After that cables in the way.
So if I can't get the G-boxx one which I like very much I guess I'll have to make one. I do plan on getting a Rohloff but getting the money for one is a problem at the moment as I don't have $1300 bucks and then again looks like Rohloff won't just sell the belt drive cogs to any one......But then again if G-boxx would just return my e-mails I could get one from them...

Blahhhh I hate working on the crap I have.


Tim


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## p nut (Apr 19, 2007)

I've never been fond of belt drives and saw no reason to switch from the good ol' chains, but at the price of those XXIX's, it's VERY VERY tempting!

I also like that they did away with the hipster-ish color scheme of 2010 bikes.


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## vindiggitydog (Aug 6, 2008)

p nut said:


> I've never been fond of belt drives and saw no reason to switch from the good ol' chains, but at the price of those XXIX's, it's VERY VERY tempting!
> 
> I also like that they did away with the hipster-ish color scheme of 2010 bikes.


Agreed. I don't know what Raleigh was thinking with that lame @ss color scheme!:nono: They should go back to their original, simple Raleigh decal on their 07' model. No need for dumb graphics to sell the masses on SSing.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Velobike said:


> You can rig up a tensioner along the lines of a STS using a flat pulley (eg skateboard wheel)
> 
> I did a few experiments along this line.
> 
> ...


Velo,

Thanks for your post. With the modified YeSS tensioner it makes sense both how and why that would work. Only issue I`ve heard of with the belt it self is if you attemp to bend it backwards. IE swing the tensioner around to the 4 oclock position for tension.

Frame my friend used is a 91 Yeti ARC made out of some really beefy steel. Flexing that frame is pretty much not going to happen. Then again it out weighs his Yeti FS rig by two pounds as well.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Theres a few very valid points made in this thread. Having dabbled with a belt for 6 months I think the most important thing is ring and cog size....the bigger the combo the better.

With my 39-24T combo and flexy Ti frame I experienced no end of teeth jumping kaos. Although a flexy frame doesnt aid this problem it seems that larger rings and cogs will infact help the problem. 

To be honest I swapped out my Belt Drive in favour of my trusty chain and I have no regrets other than a 120gram weight penalty that Im happy to except. 

For me the Belt was a bad experience but Im sure it will perform perfectly for others with the correct frame and cog diameters.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> ...For me the Belt was a bad experience but Im sure it will perform perfectly for others with the correct frame and cog diameters.


That's a shame.

If you still have the belt drive components, why not experiment with a snubber pulley. It has worked on one of my flexy frames. There's also the extra flange that Spot sells.

I would be interested to see if it works for anyone else.

You could modify an existing tensioner to do this, or make your own. It's easier if you have a derailleur hanger on the frame because then you can make one out of a piece of flat bar with appropriately drilled holes and a skateboard wheel or similar. Unfortunately I have recycled the piece of metal I made mine out of, so I can't show a photo - it was simple and crude, but could have been made to look tidy if I had persisted with it.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Velobike said:


> That's a shame.
> 
> If you still have the belt drive components, why not experiment with a snubber pulley. It has worked on one of my flexy frames. There's also the extra flange that Spot sells.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is a shame. I really liked what the Belt had to offer. I did use the Spot Flange for a while but it didnt seemed to help my situation.

For quite some time I was convinced that the noise was my Industry 9 hub slipping. As it turns out I cant find anybody with a failed I9 hub so I ruled that out. I tested the Belt with one of my other sets of I9 wheels and found the same outcome. By increasing the Belt tension to higher than recommended it helped with the popping for sure but at the expense of my hub and BB bearings. With the tension tight enough to eliminate 95% of the popping I could barely turn my cranks resulting in unneccessary drag and bearing wear.

To conclude, these things have to be tried to be judged and Im glad I had a go with it. When it worked it was excellent and it was a great conversation point out on the trail. I miss the whisper quite operation and the set and forget approach. I also miss the lightness of the components but to be honest I prefer the look of a chain and everyday cogs on my bike. The Belt looked somewhat out of place on my curvy old style bike IMO.

Ive always said, "_dont knock something you've never tried", and Im glad I gave it a go._


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## Moozh (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm glad I found this thread, I am actually looking to get a rigid 29er and am thinking about a belt drive. I did not know about the Raleigh, I like the raw frame, I also see that the gears are 46/28 which seems to be a way others or going instead of 36/24. 

Does anyone have an idea of the price on the Raleigh XXIX with the gates setup? 

Am I right in thinking that many of the gates drive issues had much to do with using the smaller cogs and the larger ones do away with the problems? Anyone here have a gates and loves it? Is it the panacea it claims to be for any of you?


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

I've been riding a Spot Longboard since May. 46/28 no outer flange. I broke it down 3 times in the garage before headin out to the trail as I heard changing a flat can be a nightmare (on trail aligning and tension can be problematic) Sure enough 2ed ride out pinch flat. Got it going with no problems and without taking much longer a chain drive and with no additional tools. 
I believe the key to it all is spending the time in the garage getting it dialed in before hitting the trail. I found the KMC bmx style chain tugs to work the best for dialing in the tension. I also found a tru axle hub (I use a DT 240 with 10mm RWS) is key to speedy flat fixes. I can pull the axle, drop the hub, and replace with out changing the chain tugs so setting the tension on the trail is not an issue at all. As far as belt alignment you must use a freewheel which has a internal lock ring (most 9spd freewheels have them) not a one with an external lock ring like most SS hubs have. DT and Hope make SS hubs with internal lock rings. The freewheels with external lock rings do not have enough room to dial in the alignment.
Overall I like the belt drive and would buy another bike with one without hesitation. The only downside is you're most likely going to be the only rider on most long rides with a belt drive so you'll need to carry a back up belt, but they are very light (lighter than my chain tool) and coil up to about a 4" diameter which takes up very little room in my pack.


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## cbrock450 (Apr 18, 2008)

The good news is that spot has redesigned their dropouts. No need for a chain tensioner anymore, the dropouts are very similar to the paragon sliders. You no longer have to worry about adjusting the brakes or the chain tensioner if you get a flat.


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

cbrock450 said:


> The good news is that spot has redesigned their dropouts. No need for a chain tensioner anymore, the dropouts are very similar to the paragon sliders. You no longer have to worry about adjusting the brakes or the chain tensioner if you get a flat.


With a thru axle and BMX tuggs you don't have to worry about those issues either. And you don't need to spend $1200 to get a new frame. The new frames do look good though.


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## millerlynx (May 11, 2006)

I love my spot longboard with the gates belt drive. I would echo some of the comments made by others:

- the maintenance free aspect rules
- the belt life rules
- changing a flat does not require anything beyond what I have on my multi-tool (a 8mm hex)
- learning how to get the belt tension dialed does take a bit of time, but is not hard. We're talking 15 mins of playing with the through bolt tension, and the drop out locations to ensure both tension and alignment.
- once properly aligned and tensioned, I have had no problems with slippage, slappping or anything else
- the downside is getting the right gear combo for you personally. The rear cogs are at least $100 and the belt is $80. On the spot you have some room to move the rear wheel, but not much. Basically you can change 1 tooth count without needing a different belt size. If you need a bigger change than that your looking at spending $200 to make a change. That's a lot compared to a chained bike. Or you can man up and learn how to ride a harder gear than you may first think you can.....


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## goveryfast (Feb 27, 2006)

*Belt works*

Yup, had for two seasons now. Have one of the first Spot Ti 29er belt drive frames. It was a little tough getting the Belt to line up with front and rear pulley but once it is set, you are good to go.. NO noise, no lube. It;s all good.


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## goveryfast (Feb 27, 2006)

*Gear change on belt drive*

On my Spot long board, I can go from a 28t to a 25t without changing the belt length. Just need to adjust the belt tension. My rear drops out is made by Paragon Machine works. I am running a 46t in the front.


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## agnello (Apr 1, 2010)

Tim T - 
I am also running a 39x24 belt drive on a 2010 Lynskey Pro 29er (Ti frame) and having a horrible time.
I wish I had seen this thread before investing in this.
Folks on this thread who talk about getting proper alignment and tension have it all wrong - that can be a pain - but is not the issue. Even once you get the proper tension and alignment if you have too much frame flex you are in for trouble
1st ride I ended up on the ground in pain after the belt popped all the way off on my first real out of the saddle stomp up a hill. Slammed my knee into the bars. (I am 175# and really like to hammer)
I built a Spot like end plate out of an old 24 tooth cog for the next ride. Now it doesn't pop off but it does make the popping noise under heavy load as it skips a tooth.
There is no way I can run more tension on this thing - it is just shy of binding up the bearings and you basically need to take an 8mm wrench to re-do the tension if you get a flat - QR is useless.
SO - what about the supposed solutions - Running bigger chain ring and cog is completely pointless - the whole beauty of SS is awesome clearance - there that goes.
You can buy a snubber - but - so much for the weight advantage - 
Here is a link to CycleMonkey who carries it in the US:
http://www.cyclemonkey.com - Cost is over $70
Good luck but I have converted back to chain

Also - for those thinking of belt - read the full Gates manual before you buy
Basically - can't ride in mud or snow or Ice or clay, don't get a stick or a stone stuck in it anywhere and if you think the belt has been potentially damaged - they advise you to buy a new one cause there is basically no way to test it.

I got into single speed so I could hammer and never have to worry about gear slip or chain suck. Belt has lost my confidence - no way I can hammer without wondering when it will pop.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

agnello said:


> ...
> Good luck but I have converted back to chain
> 
> ...


After paying a lot of attention to current belt drive offerings and watching first hand as my roommate purchased and suffered all the realities of one, I sincerely believe that this is the best solution to the challenges and realities of the current Gates belt drive system.

Notice I said "current." I sincerely hope belt drive continues to evolve into a functional system. But extraneous tensioners? No freakin' way.

--Sparty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

agnello said:


> Tim T -
> I am also running a 39x24 belt drive on a 2010 Lynskey Pro 29er (Ti frame) and having a horrible time.
> I wish I had seen this thread before investing in this.
> Folks on this thread who talk about getting proper alignment and tension have it all wrong - that can be a pain - but is not the issue. Even once you get the proper tension and alignment if you have too much frame flex you are in for trouble...


Whereas, if you get the alignment right and the tension right, and have a frame that doesn't flex, you have a troublefree existence.

The basic problem is poor frame design. What works well for chain is not necessarily precise/strong enough for belt.

It's simple enough IMO:

1. Any adjustment method that relies on eyeball alignment is going to cause problems for many riders (but not all). So either it's got to be an EBB or a fixed location.

2. Any lateral flex in the chainstay will cause belt feed problems because of alignment being disrupted. Sticking a sharp kink in the chainstay to get front pulley clearance is guaranteed to allow flex to happen.

3. Any system of separating the seatstay/chainstay that relies on 2 bolts is likely to fret - you have effectively created a trapezoid out of a triangle. Use a single bolt or triangulate the joint. It's not impossible to do it with 2 bolts, but it will take more metal to do the job.

4. A bolted in rear wheel is likely to make for a laterally stiffer rear end.

The frame builders have a real dilemma here because the frame tubes they buy are designed around chain drive parameters, so it will take some time for stuff to work out of the box for belt drive.

I suspect if the strong point of your frame is the mystical and subtle feel of it, then it is too flexy. Get your flex out of your tyres/wheels/seatpost instead.

Paying a lot of money for a frame is no guarantee of getting a foolproof beltdrive. My best performing belt drive conversion is on a frame I paid £29 for. Guess what? - it has stiff chainstays.

So don't blame the belt, blame your frame designer.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Velobike said:


> Whereas, if you get the alignment right and the tension right, and have a frame that doesn't flex, you have a troublefree existence.
> 
> The basic problem is poor frame design. What works well for chain is not necessarily precise/strong enough for belt.
> 
> ...


you keep saying this, but who wants to ride a super stiff or heavy frame just so they can have a belt drive. It seems counter intuitive. 
Belt drive is a flawed system IMHO. You might be able to get it working, but in reality, it's always going to be on the verge of failure. The "teeth" on the belt will deform a certain amount under load, which effectively turns them into little ramps for which to slide up and over the teeth on the cog at a certain point. The belt's teeth will never have a solid, fixed driving tangent point like the roller on a chain. And to add to that, you cant have an accurate or consistent pitch by having the belt's teeth that long and attached at the top, rather than through the center like on a chain.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> you keep saying this, but who wants to ride a super stiff or heavy frame just so they can have a belt drive. It seems counter intuitive...


My frames are not super stiff or heavy. The bike I converted with the £29 frame weighs 10.6kg. I'm sure a frame from a quality builder would bring this weight down.

Vertical compliance is perfectly ok on a belt drive frame. It's the lateral flex that is the killer. Unfortunately we don't seem to be getting the one without the other.

Personally I get all the compliance I need out of 2.35" tyres.


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

I believe those who have spent the time to understand and dial in their belt drives will have a very positive experience. 
The Spot Longboard is not the stiffest frame out there in fact it is far from it. I'm 210lb and ride in an area where the trails a all up and down, you're either on the pedals or on the brakes. I have not had one belt drive related issue on the trail. Maybe I'm the one fortunate rider with a belt drive, but IMO those who complain the most have not ridden or most likely not spent the time to learn how to set one up.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

goveryfast said:


> Yup, had for two seasons now. Have one of the first Spot Ti 29er belt drive frames. It was a little tough getting the Belt to line up with front and rear pulley but once it is set, you are good to go.. NO noise, no lube. It;s all good.
> View attachment 562026


Great looking setup, wish I had the same.


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## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

seems to be all about the tension for me. Working great all year.


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## agnello (Apr 1, 2010)

Dude- when are you going to stop acting like Akio Toyada and face the facts:
1) there are some real issues with belt drive when combined with some frames, and riders (weight and strength) and potentially the cog size - even when set up properly.
2) this is not about belt drive set up - there are specifications on how it should be set up and either it is set up correctly or not. - In my case it was.

You act like the is some magic pixie dust only you and some other shamans know about to set up properly. Face it man - there are Two dropout slider bolt settings and the position of the cog on the hub - THAT IS IT. If once you have set the belt to the right tension you can spin the pedals and the belt is less than 1mm (ideally 0.5mm) from the end flange on the sprocket after spinning the pedals 10-15 times around - as per step 5 in the Gates manual - and if the wheel is still in the center of the chainstays - you are done. There is absolutely no other variable - nothing else to adjust. What else is there - your pixie dust?

So - the point of bringing this up is not to trash belt drive - I personally what it to be successful. The point is to help folks understand the interactions out there, and to gather info on which setups work properly and which don't. For instance - you have given us your weight and frame - that is good. What cog size are you running (as people in other threads have indicated larger cogs might work better, but that comes at the expense of chainring clearance)


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## goveryfast (Feb 27, 2006)

Seems that some have good luck or setup and others do not. I went with Spot, who worked with Gates and I have had NO issues. I did have slippage at first but soon discovered that the bolts in the slider drop out where not gripping the drop out in the slider allowing the wheel to slip. So, went with large headed SS bolts in the slider and that was it. 

I think the frame being made for Belt drive is the fix. My buddy tried to set up his Soulcraft with belt drive and it just did not work well.

I change out rear cogs based on the trail. I use a Chris King rear hub with Gates cogs set up on two separate Chris King cassette bodies so that I do not have to deal with belt alignment each switch. Just change the cassette body out and good to go.

Hope that helps someone. Belt drive works for me at 165 who races in the Expert cat.


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

agnello said:


> Dude- when are you going to stop acting like Akio Toyada and face the facts:
> 1) there are some real issues with belt drive when combined with some frames, and riders (weight and strength) and potentially the cog size - even when set up properly.
> 2) this is not about belt drive set up - there are specifications on how it should be set up and either it is set up correctly or not. - In my case it was.
> 
> ...


Dude check my post above. 46/28 gearing I have not had a clearance problem although you say I should. The fact that you are quoting set up specs from the Gates manual tells me you have not spent much time working with the system. As with everything mechanical there is no pixie dust just experience. First you wheel is not going to be perfectly centered in the chainstays, Second the type of freewheel on the hub can be an issue, Third use the tension tool from Gates until you have a feel for what the tension should be. I actually run mine on the softer end of the tension window and have not slipping issues. You'll also find that spinning the wheel in the bike stand and actually throwing a leg over and pedaling it helps. 
I too what those asking for advice from experience to gain a better understanding of it, but I have read and heard a lot of negative aspects which I have not encountered. Some of those from people I question have spent much time with the belt system.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

SicBith said:


> Dude check my post above. 46/28 gearing I have not had a clearance problem although you say I should. The fact that you are quoting set up specs from the Gates manual tells me you have not spent much time working with the system. As with everything mechanical there is no pixie dust just experience. First you wheel is not going to be perfectly centered in the chainstays, Second the type of freewheel on the hub can be an issue, Third use the tension tool from Gates until you have a feel for what the tension should be. I actually run mine on the softer end of the tension window and have not slipping issues. You'll also find that spinning the wheel in the bike stand and actually throwing a leg over and pedaling it helps.
> I too what those asking for advice from experience to gain a better understanding of it, but I have read and heard a lot of negative aspects which I have not encountered. Some of those from people I question have spent much time with the belt system.


So you are in the 50% of belt drive users (I believe I'm being generous) who have no problems with the Gates system.

Given that, why would I (or anyone) invest so much in a new frame (required) plus relatively expensive proprietary parts (required) for a system that gives us a coin toss of a chance at working well? Especially when there's another system out there (chain) that works perfectly 99.9% of the time.

I'm not saying that the belt system doesn't work. My contention is that it is not currently at a state where many people should invest in it. You are one of the few, and there are others. Let those willing to risk big bucks on an iffy system step forward and deal with working the bugs out while the masses who just want a proven system so they can go ride their bike stay with the chain.

All kidding aside, thanks for spending the money and taking the risks while the rest of us wait for the complaints to settle to an acceptable level before we take the plunge.

--Sparty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Couple of good points made here:

Agnello (somewhat aggressively) is right - magic pixie dust should not be needed. As long as there is the means of maladjusting belt drive there's going to be problems.

ISAR is right about the efficiency of chains - but they are noisier, heavier, and dirtier. They'd be great if they were fully enclosed in an oil bath.

So for any progress we need belt drive frames with foolproof adjustment and sufficient stiffness not to allow belt misalignment, or we need chain drive frames built to take full oilbaths.

I must say I'm disappointed that the problems with belt drive exist. If the frame manufacturers had spent as much on R&D on their frames for belt drive as they did on marketing we wouldn't have any problem. You don't have to spend long experimenting with belt drive to become aware that alignment is critical and that the frame has to be stiff enough and the adjustment impossible to get wrong.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

i found a foolproof fix for all the belt drive issues. patent pending.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> i found a foolproof fix for all the belt drive issues. patent pending.


LOL!!!


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

Sparty all kidding aside I, like you, would not go out and pay good money on unproven technology. 
Nice solution to "fix" the belt system. I used your chain tugs when I first started dialing it in and I'll say this. Using those with track drop outs straight up sucked. They bent and slid up on top of the drop out on the first pedal stroke. The home-brewed cogs are nice, but the chaintugs need work.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Velobike said:


> Couple of good points made here:
> 
> Agnello (somewhat aggressively) is right - magic pixie dust should not be needed. As long as there is the means of maladjusting belt drive there's going to be problems.
> 
> ...


I just dont notice any noise or mess. (it could be because all the cracks in my frame make more noise, and i never clean my bike) 
As for lighter, i doubt by much if you have a decent cog, chain, and chainring. How much do your cog/chainrings weigh? I bet heavier enough than some of my stuff to negate the difference between the chain and belt.

BTW, the pic above is just a joke, dont take it the wrong way


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

SicBith said:


> Sparty all kidding aside I, like you, would not go out and pay good money on unproven technology.
> Nice solution to "fix" the belt system. I used your chain tugs when I first started dialing it in and I'll say this. Using those with track drop outs straight up sucked. They bent and slid up on top of the drop out on the first pedal stroke. The home-brewed cogs are nice, but the chaintugs need work.


If that happened, then there were issues with the setup. The dropouts were either too thick, or too thin, or the skewer wasnt tight whatsoever. The bosses on the inside of the tensioner need to catch the axle. If it only grabs the skewer because of oversized dropouts, it will bend them. If the dropouts are really thin, the bosses will only hit the nuts on the hub and not tighten on the dropout.
You should have emailed me if you had a problem with something. I would have taken care of it.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> I just dont notice any noise or mess. (it could be because all the cracks in my frame make more noise, and i never clean my bike)
> As for lighter, i doubt by much if you have a decent cog, chain, and chainring. How much do your cog/chainrings weigh? I bet heavier enough than some of my stuff to negate the difference between the chain and belt.
> 
> BTW, the pic above is just a joke, dont take it the wrong way


Love the pic 


Belt and sprockets weigh 254 gms


Chain and sprockets weigh 464 gms

I've got a set of your cogs, and they would be somewhat lighter than the steel cogs I have weighed.


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

I did email you. You told me how to set them up. They didn't work with the drop outs. The tension screws bent, the tug rotated in the drop out and boom I'm walking home. The dimension of the area the axial slides through is small for the drop out. The shitty Spot one worked ok, but the KMC bmx style is the best hands down. Your cogs are great though.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Velobike said:


> Love the pic
> 
> 
> Belt and sprockets weigh 254 gms
> ...


Glad you took the pic lightly, i thought afterwards that it might be seen offensive, but wasnt ment that way. Just trying to lighten the mood of the debate.

Yes, your setup is a little lighter. A 32t 4 bolt ring is 30g, and a 17t ti cog is about 26g. So that plus a typical chain at 234g for 92 links (what i run)... you're looking at 290g.... a difference of 36g, but that depends on your gearing of course. I'm just going by my ratios.


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## agnello (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks for the info Goveryfast. In my case I don't think it is the slider bolts - the heads are about 15mm in diameter and were not loose before or after the belt popped.
Did you have problems with this size and end up having to go bigger?
May I ask which Spot bike you are using for this (their web site shows a SS Rocker with belt drive in both steel and Ti ) Also wondering which size rear cog you are using successfully.
I think I agree with you that the frame plays a significant role here. Sometimes one may get lucky with a conversion, but it seems there is a reason Spot is working closely with Gates on this.
Thanks!


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## agnello (Apr 1, 2010)

*Belt Drive on Ti Frames - Trying to get to the bottom of this..*



SicBith said:


> Dude check my post above. 46/28 gearing I have not had a clearance problem although you say I should. The fact that you are quoting set up specs from the Gates manual tells me you have not spent much time working with the system. As with everything mechanical there is no pixie dust just experience. First you wheel is not going to be perfectly centered in the chainstays, Second the type of freewheel on the hub can be an issue, Third use the tension tool from Gates until you have a feel for what the tension should be. I actually run mine on the softer end of the tension window and have not slipping issues. You'll also find that spinning the wheel in the bike stand and actually throwing a leg over and pedaling it helps.
> I too what those asking for advice from experience to gain a better understanding of it, but I have read and heard a lot of negative aspects which I have not encountered. Some of those from people I question have spent much time with the belt system.


Hmm - I guess you just don't trust other folks when they say they installed things in spec? (btw - if you measure up the chain line properly and set the cog in the right place the wheel will be centered in the stays once tensioned - it's just simple geometry)
IMHO I would hypothesize yours works due to the combination of the frame and the fact you are running a larger cog.

Would you mind explaining the part about the freewheel on the hub. I haven't heard that one yet. I ran mine on a stock Roval wheel/hub. I can feel no play in the freewheel but not sure what mechanism you are suggesting here. (I do have the option of trying again on another wheel I have with a Hope Pro 2 hub/freewheel if that would make a difference.

Just trying to get this down to a science - if it can't be explained and spec'ed it will never gain wide adoption.

Thanks!


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I've been working on this for months. Still am.
I have my bike on an old Cat Eye trainer. The one were the fork locks into the stand. You can stand on the pedals and really crank down.
1. Frame flex is important. Not mentioned any were in Gates web site or literature. But Rohloff/G-boxx does mention it and are very adamant about selling their hubs/gear boxes to OEM's with out having the frames tested. Rohloff /G-boxx even has blue prints on making a test fixture.
2. When the frame flexes even with absolute strait and true set up. I know I set mine up with a 24"digital Mitatoyo caliper making sure the axle to crank distance was exactly the same distance on each side. I also have a bolt in axle.The belt starts to ride up the cog at about 6-7 o'clock then snaps back down at about 9 o'clock. Thus the popping noise. I know this cause I watched it happen.
3. Having a belt so dang tight to keep it from popping. (sort of fixed the flex by using 16ilb expandable Urethane foam in the stay, sort of worked) That I'm pretty sure its not good for the bearings in the hub and bottom bracket. Yes I do have a Gates Krikit tension meter (more on that later)
4. Talked to an engineer at work and yes a larger diameter front ring would help something to do with some angle. I'm no engineer but I believe the guy. Oh yea I work for one of the largest conveyor belt manufacturers in the world so this guy knows belts and yes Gates Carbon drive was not designed for bicycles but for ....conveyors and power transfer systems. I've seen plenty of Gates and Goodyear belts and drives in factories.
5. Very little selection in parts. Isuckatriding You my friend need to make some belt drive cogs. 3 front rings from Gates. 1 cog for an Alfine hub. no tensioners. (which IMHO would help)an $80 "snubber"from Rohloff. Which doesn't work with an Alfine hub and only has 2 chain line settings. Gates please make some more belt sizes I'd kill for a 112
6. Over priced. Rip offs. So now lets talk about the Krikit tension meter. I 've seen the Krikit tension meter in automotive repair shops. Its a pretty common tool used to make sure belts are tensioned correctly. After sending 2 e-mails to Gates they insured me that the one for bicycles was very special in that it had a special calibrated spring .I purchased a tension meter from Universal cycles for $44 got it in the mail pulled it out of the box and to my surprise it had a NAPA decal on it. So I went to Rock Auto.com and ordered the same tool for something like $12. It came in same box, same part number. Man what a bummer. So e-mailed Gates again and dude reply's with "OH we had a mix up on our end I'll send you a replacement just give me your address etc.etc." That was 6 weeks ago and no "replacement" at all.......So went looking at getting a new belt because I'm pretty sure mines toast. Went to the local industrial Gates supplier. $35 for a belt that cost me $60 at the LBS. Now to be fair I'm not sure what he mark up is at the bike shop but Universal wants $57 and I'm not sure if I got a discount at the supplier as the company I work for gets one from them and I got it from our regular sales guy. 
$150 for a front ring (39 tooth) I must be insane for buying it. I can get a 39 tooth chain ring for less than $20 a good one to. 
7. Poor quality. 2 Alfine cogs both would not fit the hub sent the first back second one I fit it to the hub myself. I'm a mold and die maker fitting close tolerance parts is my job. Measure the cog on a Ziess CMM some one missed a spring pass on the clean up. QC any one?

Me. I never give up and I do like experimenting. I do plan on building a frame from scratch with the stiffest stays I can find and I do plan on using a Rohloff Speed hub as the Shimano 41.5mm chain line sucks balls and it looks like they won't fix it with the new Alfine 11 coming out and who the heck still uses 3/8 26 BSC thread. Not to mention 7/16 26 BSC. That died with Norton motorcycles. But the Alfine is another rant. I will switch back to chain for now as I have to fabricate some parts, 25tooth Alfine cog and a modified snubber arm. I haven't ridden the bike in months and I'm tiered of sinking money into it with out any miles. I also have to save some money up to pay for a Speed Hub and tubing/frame parts. 

Any how I feel better.

Tim


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

TimT said:


> I've been working on this for months. Still am.
> I have my bike ...
> 
> Tim


Respect.

--Sparty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> ...
> 3. Having a belt so dang tight to keep it from popping...
> 
> 5. ... Isuckatriding You my friend need to make some belt drive cogs...
> ...


Lots of good stuff there, and glad you feel better now 

I don't use any more tension than I would in a chain and it seems (so far) to be working with my latest conversion. I'm wary of putting more load on the bike's bearings than it was designed for.

On my most flexy frame, a homemade snubber at the 7 o'clock position cured the problem. It sat barely 1mm above the belt so it only came into action when the belt started to rise. I made it out of a scrap piece of flat bar and used a tensioner pulley. Sorry I don't have a photo - I dropped the idea because it was a kludge and I got another frame, but it was a very simple device. It turned a bike that used to go klaak whenever the gradient went past a mild climb to no problem. It took about 15 minutes to make the part with handyman tools.

Yup, ISAR could be the hero who saves the belt drive movement. I'd like front ring around 42 teeth, or any ring in a pretty anodised colour 

Any chance you could let us know the parts numbers if we want to get belts from an industrial supplier?


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## goveryfast (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, lets all run for the hills, put our heads in the sand. Wouldn't want anything new to ruin the lovely chain.... Ok, being a little over-the-top. 

All I have to say is, my belt drive Spot Ti Long Board works great. I went with the company that worked with Gates to develop it. The system took time to master the set up, but now I can change cogs with same set up time as a chain. 

If you are having problems with alignment, slipping belts, etc..... it has to be your setup or it is the frame designer who did not do his homework.

Chain good.....Belt better


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> So you are in the 50% of belt drive users (I believe I'm being generous) who have no problems with the Gates system.
> 
> Given that, why would I (or anyone) invest so much in a new frame (required) plus relatively expensive proprietary parts (required) for a system that gives us a coin toss of a chance at working well? Especially when there's another system out there (chain) that works perfectly 99.9% of the time.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: Yep, true words, dat'. "Pioneers often die on the trail".

My thoughts, for what they are...if the belt drive had been a ground-up system built on a bike frame/tensioning system made for it from the beginning instead of being retro-fit to existing bikes, then it might have been a whole 'nother experience. As it is, the buy-in is steep, the rewards iffy, and the future uncertain.

I am going to go out today and buy a $15.00 chain, put a few cents of lube on it, and ride a new singlespeed build tonite with no issues other than a bit of soy bean oil on my fingers. Next year I will replace the system as it wears for less than $100.00 in any gearing combo that makes sense and ride for another year with the same results.

As much as I would like the belt to work, and I have no dog in the fight...I liked the idea when I heard of it...it needs to get to THAT level of ease and reliability before the public should be expected to jump on. Otherwise it will be relegated to the niche type of thing that some riders will go through regardless of the hassle.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

goveryfast said:


> Yes, lets all run for the hills, put our heads in the sand. Wouldn't want anything new to ruin the lovely chain.... Ok, being a little over-the-top.
> 
> All I have to say is, my belt drive Spot Ti Long Board works great. I went with the company that worked with Gates to develop it. The system took time to master the set up, but now I can change cogs with same set up time as a chain.
> 
> ...


Sorry to break this to you, but my roommate just spent ~$4000(?) on an uber bling Spot Longboard, outfitted with King, custom wheels, blah, blah and he suffers. He only weighs 145#. The bike was professionally set up.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=632000

If this happened to me, I could not contain my disappointment. I'd lick my wounds, put a chain on and kick the belt to the curb.

--Sparty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> ...If this happened to me, I could not contain my disappointment. I'd lick my wounds, put a chain on and kick the belt to the curb...


Understandable.

But if anyone feels inclined to kick their belts & cogs to the curb, please kick them in my direction so I can continue experimenting 

(I would like to try the parts from a failed setup on one of my working bikes to see if it were the parts or the frame that was at fault)


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## agnello (Apr 1, 2010)

TimT said:


> I've been working on this for months. Still am.
> .......
> Me. I never give up and I do like experimenting.
> .......
> ...


Tim - 
I admire your systematic approach to understand the issues - wish half the frame manufacturers out there were half as persistent.

I too am not inclined to give up and do like experimenting also.
Presently I am debating the lesser of three evils:
~$ 80 for an un-aesthetic snubber and keep running the 39x24 on my Lynskey
~$ 330 for a whole new set - 46x28 and new belt - not 100% sure it will solve the problem on my frame. 
~$ 1300 for a Ventana Frame to run the 39x24 on

wft - may just do all 3 in the name of science - or maybe just the last two - that might be the most informative.... I guess worst case I could end up with either two chain drive SS's or a need for two snubbers 

Anyhow - keep tinkering and keep posting - it's helpful.
thx


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks to all. venting is good.
Velobike
Any how talked to the supplier and he did give me a break. The company I work for buys big bucks from his company. He told me that we make his boat payment...LOL... So he doesn't mind helping me out. I just handed him the old belt and he sent me the new one so sorry no PN# I'll swing by and talk to him some time later.
Agnello
Try the snubber first. Its not that bad looking.On the Lynsky you have sliders from Paragon Machine. If you don't have a der. hanger mount slider You can get one from them. Also not a bad idea to get he new slider upgrade Ti bolt kit while your at it. You can tighten the sliders down better. If the slider is moving around it can creak/move and cause the belt to come out of alignment or tension. You may not have enough chain stay clearance for a 46 G-boxx.com has some nice belt line charts on their web site with chain stay clearances. They are for IG hubs but all the crank clearances will work with what you have.

I have to back burner this for a bit as I have to work on a house that I'm trying to sell.
But I'll get back on it as soon as I can.
Tim


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## SicBith (Jul 24, 2006)

agnello said:


> Hmm - I guess you just don't trust other folks when they say they installed things in spec? (btw - if you measure up the chain line properly and set the cog in the right place the wheel will be centered in the stays once tensioned - it's just simple geometry)
> IMHO I would hypothesize yours works due to the combination of the frame and the fact you are running a larger cog.
> 
> Would you mind explaining the part about the freewheel on the hub. I haven't heard that one yet. I ran mine on a stock Roval wheel/hub. I can feel no play in the freewheel but not sure what mechanism you are suggesting here. (I do have the option of trying again on another wheel I have with a Hope Pro 2 hub/freewheel if that would make a difference.
> ...


Thanks for the geo lesson. Setting up the system is not that cut and dry. What I'm getting at with the freewheel is to have enough room for lateral chain line adjustment your hub must use an internal lock nut to keep the cog on the freewheel. Your hope is great, so is DT, CK, I9, etc single speed hubs. The ones that don't work use external lock rings to hold the cog on WTB, Surly, etc. 10mm thru axial hubs work better than bolt on axial in the slotted dropouts. You can pull the axial and drop the wheel without messing with the brake or need to readjust the tension.


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## Grave9 (Aug 3, 2009)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> i found a foolproof fix for all the belt drive issues. patent pending.


This image is my new desktop photo!!!!!!..............Drew


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Wow this is strange or is it. I complain about belt drive earlier in this thread and I get an e-mail the next day from Gates about my problems. After a week or so with no answer from when I originally sent them the question. I talk bad about how much they over charge and the Krikit. And the next day I have a FedEx over night package with a new Krikit on my door step.
So I know somebody at Gates is watching this board.
So listen up.
1 offer more parts. More front rings and cogs , even if you have to do short runs and keep them in stock. Heck make them to order. Its needed. Its called customer service.
2. Up date your site. Why does G-boxx/Rohloff have more info on your product. Real info not sales pitch stuff
3. Forget about the home run sales. In the cycling world it works like this. Some new thing comes along single speed/29/fixed gear etc etc small builders (less then 100 frames a year) and guys in their garage make it happen. Then big company comes along and says "hey look what we got!" All the bugs get worked out by small guys and stuff. So really help the small guys out because right now you have a bunch of small guys talking smack about your stuff. = bad for sales the internet is the big equalizer
4. Test your crap with your own people. Not sure if your doing this but send out a company wide e-mail and ask for cyclists that work in the company help set them up and have your people ride. Nothing like first hand honest product evaluation.
5. warn every one about the frame flex issue. If I'd known that in advance I'd not be complaining right now.
6.Drop your prices. Really $30 dollars more for a bicycle tool vs. the automotive version.
7. More belt sizes.
8. Stop lurking on the boards and get involved on the boards. Having an open honest conversation helps more then sneaking around. People feel invested in the product and that you care. There are company reps all over this board. Kirk Pacenti (650B) for example.I can get the low down strait from the man on his tires and when his new stuff is coming out. 

As soon as I get time and put the bike together I'm going to test all 3 Krikits and see what that extra $30 buys you. Probably going to be a couple of weeks.

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> ...All the bugs get worked out by small guys and stuff. So really help the small guys out...


That's me if Gates is listening 

Let's start with a 42 ring and a range of belts with 2 teeth between them 

Well said TimT


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Velobike.
No kidding when I set the bike up I had an extra 2mm to tighten the belt.Got the blessing from the Gates guy. I remember him saying "wow this is going to be close". Seeing as I can only run a 24 (Alfine 8) and a 39. Well the belt stretched. Couldn't get it tight as I ran out of adjustment. There fore the new belt. So what happens when the new belt stretches???. So now I have to make a 25 or 26 rear.(I can't go up in the front cause of chain stay clearance problems) to pick up the slack. I believe Phil Wood has a 26 but at what cost? Lucky for me I have mills and lathes avalable and the knowledge to make my own gear. But what about the rest of the bikers out there? Screwed or not even going to try it. 

Tim


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

too bad their tooth design on the cog is patent pending. If they were willing to make it avalible as an industry standard, other manufacturers could fill the gap in cog sizes and there will be alot more happy customers. I'd make a cog, but i dont wanna be sued if it's too close to their design.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Phil Wood is making cogs and rings (you have to call them) as is G-boxx/ Rohloff. Heck it looks like they even have freewheels for belt drive. How are they getting away with it?

Tim


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## Moozh (Jan 20, 2010)

TimT said:


> Wow this is strange or is it. I complain about belt drive earlier in this thread and I get an e-mail the next day from Gates about my problems. After a week or so with no answer from when I originally sent them the question. I talk bad about how much they over charge and the Krikit. And the next day I have a FedEx over night package with a new Krikit on my door step.
> So I know somebody at Gates is watching this board.
> So listen up.
> 1 offer more parts. More front rings and cogs , even if you have to do short runs and keep them in stock. Heck make them to order. Its needed. Its called customer service.
> ...


whew..I concede that you have mucho valid points but all vinegar and no honey? Mebbe I'm a diplomat at heart so I'm a kinda "invite" rather than "call you out" kinda guy. Now if someone from Gates joins up and gets in the conversation it'll be because you slapped em on the a$$..so with that... I wonder if anyone from Gates would openly join and converse.

General query...are some these maintaining belt alignment issues with steel and ti frames, or are there issues with aluminum also. I'm thinking about that frame flex variable in this equation.

The first bikes I knew of that came stock with the gates drive system were trek Soho's and Districts. I haven't heard of any issues with those bike...or are there?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I don't think Gates need to chime in. This is a frame design issue. Gates have a specification for measuring frame flex.

On the conversions I have done, there are/were issues with the bikes with flexy frames, and no issues at all with the bikes with stiff chainstays. Simple as that.

The Treks are city/road bikes so I'd be surprised if there was a problem with them because it's unlikely they get put under the same pressure as a mountainbike. I haven't heard of any complaints from that direction.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Moozh
I guess I'm so pissed off because of the amount of money and time I have in this project. After I talked to a Gates rep on the phone and he gave me the OK. No mention of frame flex and no mention of belt stretch. So now the bike will not work at all with belt drive. If I put on a belt and it stretches no way can I tighten it up. No parts available from Gates to help. I contacted Phil Wood and a 26 cog for the Alfine is $165 and 2 weeks minimum wait time. I can make one at work but I have to reverse engineer my cog and get suitable material and wait for a machine to open up for me to use. 

Velobike
Again some more/better warnings about frame flex from Gates would have been helpful. 

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Here's the reference: * GATES-Frame-stiffness-EN.pdf
*

I don't remember seeing this as being available until early this year, so it's probably in response to the problems.


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## Moozh (Jan 20, 2010)

Question regarding rear cog installation. I've looked for info and/or examples but cant find any so thought I'd ask here.

How is the rear cog secured on the rear wheel/hub? I see on the Gates website that you need a standard shimano freehub wheel but does that mean you also need spacers and a lockring?

I wonder of someone can spell out component by component what is required. I see nothing on the 'carbondrivesystem.com' site that displays or describes. There are the rear sprocket removal instructions but thats not informative enough beyond telling me that a cassette lockring is likely required, the rest...I'm lost.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

After reading thsi thread, it's a reminder why I'm sure glad Gates' customer service is so poor. Some time last year, I sent them a bunch of e-mails asking a few simple questions. They never replied, so I gave up on them. 

Just the same, I wanted to buy a Spot, and they never replied either.

IMHO belts are not ready for prime time on mountain bikes.


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## goveryfast (Feb 27, 2006)

Hello,

Quicker for me to walk you thru what I have used. I have been using Belt drive since early 08. I have tried different spacers, hubs....etc.

You are welcome to call me if you like. 203788-7620

Later

Todd


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> ...IMHO belts are not ready for prime time on mountain bikes.


Is this is based on your practical experience of actually using belt drive, or because you're upset at being ignored?


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Is this is based on your practical experience of actually using belt drive, or because you're upset at being ignored?


Based on the apparent challenges people are having getting a belt drive to work reliably even for the short term (even chains can have long-term problems). Simply put, there seems to be too many compromises for not enough benefits.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> Based on the apparent challenges people are having getting a belt drive to work reliably even for the short term (even chains can have long-term problems). Simply put, there seems to be too many compromises for not enough benefits.


So it's second-hand opinion, not fact then 

No compromises needed, just properly designed frames.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Velobike said:


> So it's second-hand opinion, not fact then
> 
> No compromises needed, just properly designed frames.


Still a coin toss.

Evidently there are plenty of framebuilders out there willing to offer us belt drive specific frames that they don't know how to build correctly. Including Spot, which is a company that seems to fancy itself as a leader in the belt drive movement. Not too confidence inspiring.

I stand by my earlier summation about belt drive needing plenty of fine tuning (perhaps more basic than fine) before it's in a state where the masses can buy it and abuse it like they do a chain driven bike.

--sParty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I think we're sort of agreeing but from different directions 

I think it comes down to:
a belt drive will work perfectly on a frame which caters for its requirements
a belt drive will probably not work perfectly if the frame has not been properly designed to meet those requirements.

The bike makers need to do some serious R&D - which could consist of simply reading the specs for belt drive instead of winging it. The consumers shouldn't have to be the R&D.

The belt itself is a proven technology. The bike makers are simply not applying it properly. (No I don't work for Gates etc  )


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Velobike said:


> I think we're sort of agreeing but from different directions
> 
> I think it comes down to:
> a belt drive will work perfectly on a frame which caters for its requirements
> ...


Yes, I believe we agree on all that.

Buyer beware... whether it's belt drive, EBB, Matt Chester, whatever.

--sParty


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Velobike said:


> So it's second-hand opinion, not fact then
> 
> No compromises needed, just properly designed frames.


Here are some of my perceived compromises, aside from requiring a specially built frame:
- Initial cost
- Cost to change gear ratios
- Component replacement cost
- Component availability (really, how many spare belts should one take with them on a road trip?)
- Can't have short chainstays on a 29er (or at least I've never seen a 29er with a belt drive with 16-1/2" - 16-3/4" chainstays. If there is a frame out there like this for a belt drive, I want to see it! Most 29ers using belt drives I've seen have stupid long chainstays. This is an absolute deal breaker.
- Hard (or expensive) to fine tune chainstay length.
- Known reliability problems on so-called "correct" frames.
- Constant fear that the belt will break sending me over the bars.
- Support from the company is close to non-existent
- The blue belt clashes with many color schemes!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> Here are some of my perceived compromises, aside from requiring a specially built frame...


_- Initial cost_ Agree - it will come down
_ - Cost to change gear ratios_ Agree - it will come down
_ - Component replacement cost_ No. It's comparable to what I spend on good quality chain drive stuff.
_ - Component availability (really, how many spare belts should one take with them on a road trip?)_ Do you carry a spare chain? A belt is lighter than the chainbreaker I used to carry.
_ - Can't have short chainstays on a 29er (or at least I've never seen a 29er with a belt drive with 16-1/2" - 16-3/4" chainstays. If there is a frame out there like this for a belt drive, I want to see it! Most 29ers using belt drives I've seen have stupid long chainstays. This is an absolute deal breaker._ Design. It is possible.
_ - Hard (or expensive) to fine tune chainstay length._ Design. Can't do this with 99% of bikes anyway.
_ - Known reliability problems on so-called "correct" frames._ Design. "So-called" is the correct description if they are ignoring the guidlines for belt drive.
_ - Constant fear that the belt will break sending me over the bars._ Unsubstantiated fear of the unknown. Chains break too.
_ - Support from the company is close to non-existent_ That doesn't match with my experience. It's better than the support you'll get from your chain supplier.
_ - The blue belt clashes with many color schemes!_ Poor colour co-ordination skills. All bikes should be blue. 

Many similar arguments were put forward for each improvement in mtb progress.

The rear ends of frames had to be strengthened to handle disk brakes.

The front ends of frames had to be lifted to greater heights for suspension.

Chainstays have had to be widened for fatter tyres.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Velobike said:


> _- Initial cost_ Agree - it will come down
> _ - Cost to change gear ratios_ Agree - it will come down
> _ - Component replacement cost_ No. It's comparable to what I spend on good quality chain drive stuff.
> _ - Component availability (really, how many spare belts should one take with them on a road trip?)_ Do you carry a spare chain? A belt is lighter than the chainbreaker I used to carry.
> ...


_ - Component availability (really, how many spare belts should one take with them on a road trip?)_ Do you carry a spare chain? A belt is lighter than the chainbreaker I used to carry. I think he means that if you go on a biking trip, you need to bring a bunch of spare belts, because the odds of a bike shop in the area carrying a belt is slim to none. Every bike shop will have a chain. Even walmart will likely have a chain.

_ - Support from the company is close to non-existent_ That doesn't match with my experience. It's better than the support you'll get from your chain supplier. When was the last time anyone needed support from a chain supplier?

_ - Can't have short chainstays on a 29er (or at least I've never seen a 29er with a belt drive with 16-1/2" - 16-3/4" chainstays. If there is a frame out there like this for a belt drive, I want to see it! Most 29ers using belt drives I've seen have stupid long chainstays. This is an absolute deal breaker._ Design. It is possible. I suspect it comes from chainstay clearance issues with the larger belt drive cog. Also, in order to design a really stiff chainstay, it needs to be relatively straight from the dropout to the BB shell. This GREATLY reduces chainstay/front cog clearance. With the larger front wheel, you just cant tuck it up in there like a chain driven 29er and still have decent rigidity, it needs to be pushed back some so you can try and keep your rigidity and clearance.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Are there any guesses as to what the tension will do long term on the bearings of the hubs/BB over time? Nothing? Something? Bad news bears? We have no idea in this brave, new world?

Have any of the manufacturers of the hubs, etc, weighed in on this with a blessing to proceed?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> ...I think he means that if you go on a biking trip, you need to bring a bunch of spare belts, because the odds of a bike shop in the area carrying a belt is slim to none...
> 
> ...When was the last time anyone needed support from a chain supplier?
> 
> ...in order to design a really stiff chainstay, it needs to be relatively straight from the dropout to the BB shell...


1. Is he planning riding round the world or something? Needing a bunch of spare belts is as likely as needing a bunch of spare cassettes and derailleurs.

2. About the same time someone last needed support from their belt drive supplier. You don't get direct support from your drivetrain manufacturer.

3. It is possible, just wouldn't look like what we are used to.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Velobike said:


> 1. Is he planning riding round the world or something? Needing a bunch of spare belts is as likely as needing a bunch of spare cassettes and derailleurs.
> 
> 2. About the same time someone last needed support from their belt drive supplier. You don't get direct support from your drivetrain manufacturer.
> 
> 3. It is possible, just wouldn't look like what we are used to.


1. Doesnt sound like it's the same thing, judging by all the belt drive threads.

2. since when?

3. not without sacraficing something else.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

1. It may be interesting if we had a poll of the bikes where these belt drive problems are occurring.

2. Do you get direct support from KMC or Shimano if you have a chain problem?

3. No sacrifice, just different like every other bit of progress on the bicycle.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

Assuming I have chain problems. Which I don't. And if I did, I would fix it myself. In a couple minutes. Done.

But again, I don't have chain drive issues.



> 2. Do you get direct support from KMC or Shimano if you have a chain problem?


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Velobike said:


> 1. It may be interesting if we had a poll of the bikes where these belt drive problems are occurring.
> 
> 2. Do you get direct support from KMC or Shimano if you have a chain problem?
> 
> 3. No sacrifice, just different like every other bit of progress on the bicycle.


I have the retailer for support of a chain issue...whatever that may be, I can't think of a chain issue that I would need them for...but in any case the retailer fills that gap as they have chains on the shelf and it is a known technology. SRAM or KMC or Shimano do not need to be the first POC if I break a chain and I feel it failed without just cause or wore out too fast or whatever. But I have called SRAM directly for brake issues and I have talked to Shimano directly for freehub issues, so I imagine that forum is in place if you really need it. But who does? Not very often, I bet. Unless we KNOW that there is no direct support, then that is a strawman argument. Right now Gates HAS to be right on top of it since the retailer is not too likely up to speed on diagnosing belt issues.

I do not agree that if a frame loses some ride quality just for the sake of having a belt drive that it cannot be called a sacrifice. If it loses some symmetry or looks ugly, I consider that a sacrifice too. At the least, it sure is a compromise of one thing for the other. Of course, if it looks good and rides well still, even when designed to spec, then all is good and I do not know whether those things will even be an issue. Just sayin' that some things that were called 'improvements' and 'progress' in the past were not. Elevated chainstays anyone?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

If the frame is losing ride quality it's because of poor design. 

The belt needs lateral stability which is different to vertical rigidity. Nothing new, just the qualities you want in a good single speed.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Intersting discussions going one here! I'm about to take the belt drive plunge, so I am certainly interested.

I will be setting up my Black Sheep with the Gates system, and will be sure to post my results.

On order: Gates 39t front ring, 28t rear cog, and 113t belt

Frame: 2 year old Custom Black Sheep with HACS tensioning system. The frame was not originally designed for a belt. The drive side chainstay does have a cutout to allow a narrow chainline for my M950/Boone combination, and this will help with beltring clearance. The frame also has double bent seatstays for added vertical compliance, so I will find out if this has any effect on the setup.

Wish me luck!
Mark


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## cbrock450 (Apr 18, 2008)

If i were you i would change your order to the 46 tooth in front and what ever you decide in back. I started out with the 39 tooth and all i can say is pop pop pop pop pop pop!!
The bigger the cogs the more surface area you have with the belt and lessens the chances of popping. I swapped to a 46 and the problem was solved.
I am on the fence if I am going to continue with the belt drive system when it wears out. I have thousands of miles racked up with the belt drive system and no issues on the belt or the cogs. The thing i really dislike is gearing options!!! I do some endurance racing and 32x19 is not always the gear of choice but it is since i got the belt drive system.

I am not sure how much my rear hub likes the tight tension with the belt? I talked to Chris King and they put belts on king hubs for a year with zero problems but I am not having the same experience. Pretty frustrating.....

I am thinking i would rather deal with cleaning a chain than tearing apart my rear hub frequently



bikeny said:


> Intersting discussions going one here! I'm about to take the belt drive plunge, so I am certainly interested.
> 
> I will be setting up my Black Sheep with the Gates system, and will be sure to post my results.
> 
> ...


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

cbrock450 said:


> If i were you i would change your order to the 46 tooth in front and what ever you decide in back. I started out with the 39 tooth and all i can say is pop pop pop pop pop pop!!
> The bigger the cogs the more surface area you have with the belt and lessens the chances of popping. I swapped to a 46 and the problem was solved.
> I am on the fence if I am going to continue with the belt drive system when it wears out. I have thousands of miles racked up with the belt drive system and no issues on the belt or the cogs. The thing i really dislike is gearing options!!! I do some endurance racing and 32x19 is not always the gear of choice but it is since i got the belt drive system.
> 
> ...


What kind of rear hub issues are you having...or have you already mentioned it in this thread?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

bikeny said:


> ...I'm about to take the belt drive plunge, so I am certainly interested.
> ...On order: Gates 39t front ring, 28t rear cog, and 113t belt...


The 39t belt sprocket is not available in Europe because of "problems" - probably what cbrock450 is reporting.

I'm running 46t on my bike with absolutely no problems, and I think most of those reporting problems have been on the 39t.

If that's a 32t on the front, you probably won't be able to get a 46t belt sprocket in there without spacing out your BB, but then you would have an alignment problem at the rear because the belt line would require a wider rear wheel.

With a Ti bike you could probably spring a 150mm hub in there to accommodate that, but I don't know for sure. (I've sprung steel frames 15mm without problems)

Also I do not use more tension on my belt drive than on a chain, so there's no risk to my wheel bearings or BB.

I think there was another Ti Blacksheep owner who tried this, but found his chainstays were too flexy. You can get round that with a snubber.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

cbrock450 said:


> If i were you i would change your order to the 46 tooth in front and what ever you decide in back. I started out with the 39 tooth and all i can say is pop pop pop pop pop pop!!
> The bigger the cogs the more surface area you have with the belt and lessens the chances of popping. I swapped to a 46 and the problem was solved.
> I am on the fence if I am going to continue with the belt drive system when it wears out. I have thousands of miles racked up with the belt drive system and no issues on the belt or the cogs. The thing i really dislike is gearing options!!! I do some endurance racing and 32x19 is not always the gear of choice but it is since i got the belt drive system.
> 
> ...


I don't think I can use the 46t ring. The diameter of the 39 matches up with the location of the cutout in my chainstay. After mounting the 39, I will do some measuring, and if there is room for the 46, I will try it. But, I also worry about ground clearance with the larger ring. I sometimes hit my current chainring on logs and rocks, which I'm sure is not good for the belt. The 46 will be more likely to hit as the diameter is larger than my current 34t chanring.

The good news is that I will be using a 28t cog. It seems most of the people who had issues were using the 24t cog.

Concering the bearings: Unless you are running the belt really tight, I can't see it being an issue. After looking through the Rohloff instructions (very detailed, BTW) it looks like the tension should be 20 to 30 kg. You are putting more pressure on the bearings sitting on the bike, no?

Mark


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Velobike said:


> Also I do not use more tension on my belt drive than on a chain, so there's no risk to my wheel bearings or BB.


Really? I had no idea it could be that slack. Very interesting. So then, all the guys that are having trouble getting it tight enough...perhaps they are overcompensating for other issues with set-up/frame build?

You can move the belt up and down (wiggle it from the middle of the span) like a decently tensioned chain, then? That is not at all what I had imagined, but if so, that is very good to hear.

I don't think I could get away with a 46T CR and still get the chainline I need though. Especially if I want a narrow Q...and I do.


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

mtroy said:


> Really? I had no idea it could be that slack. Very interesting. So then, all the guys that are having trouble getting it tight enough...perhaps they are overcompensating for other issues with set-up/frame build?
> 
> You can move the belt up and down (wiggle it from the middle of the span) like a decently tensioned chain, then? That is not at all what I had imagined, but if so, that is very good to hear.
> 
> I don't think I could get away with a 46T CR and still get the chainline I need though. Especially if I want a narrow Q...and I do.


you're forgetting something. The belt drive itself isnt flawed, it's absolutely every component of the bike that needs to adapt. 
Even your saddle is causing belt slippage. With it's mind.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

To no surprise, Velobike wasn't able to sufficiently address any of my concerns (other than suggesting only building blue bikes).

However, the reason people are having more success with the larger front ring is that the larger gear setup - even with the same ratio - offers lower belt tension under power (I'm not referring to preloaded tension). This alone can reduce the popping and some of the other issues. This relates to why some of those BMX dirt jumpers using small 22-25 tooth front rings run such beefy chains - they're chain tension under torque is very high.

I'd still like to see a short chainstay 29er with a 42-tooth ring and a belt drive. I know first hand that designing a 29er with short chainstays for chain drive with a 32-tooth chainring is a tight fit, so I'm very doubtful that building one with a normal Q isn't reasonably possible with a belt drive. And I surely wouldn't want to ride a 29er with long chainstays just to fit a belt. Again, too many compromises for me to run a belt drive.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

ISuckAtRiding said:


> you're forgetting something. The belt drive itself isnt flawed, it's absolutely every component of the bike that needs to adapt.
> Even your saddle is causing belt slippage. With it's mind.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> To no surprise, Velobike wasn't able to sufficiently address any of my concerns (other than suggesting only building blue bikes)...


I must apologise for my inability to address your concerns. This leaves me desolate. Your argument seems to consist of "That may work in practice, but it doesn't work with my preconceptions".

I console myself with the knowledge that I am able to build bikes that do not have issues with the belt drive.

ISAR, yup the bike has to adapt, just like it had to for disks, suspension, and fatter tyres.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Velobike said:


> I must apologise for my inability to address your concerns. This leaves me desolate. Your argument seems to consist of "That may work in practice, but it doesn't work with my preconceptions".
> 
> I console myself with the knowledge that I am able to build bikes that do not have issues with the belt drive.
> 
> ISAR, yup the bike has to adapt, just like it had to for disks, suspension, and fatter tyres.


Velobike, with absolutely no sarcasm or kidding, I've gotta say I respect your tenacity & spirit. If there there existed merely a glimmer of hope that there was but one and only one belt driven bike on the planet that worked flawlessly, you would be right there touting the benefits of the belt drive system.

You just don't give up.

I respect this.

Never mind that the situation I described above regarding belt drive bikes may just be accurate, for this is beside the point.

--sParty


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

P.S. I know what your're going to say... if one exists, they can make more...

--sParty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Ta Sparticus 

I suppose what I'm trying to get across is if it ain't working they're doing it wrong. They being the bike manufacturers.*

Things I think are wrong:

Gates:
39t front pulley - seems to be a major part of the problem. European distributors refuse to sell it.
Poor selection of front pulleys and belts sizes. Understandable with new product.


Bike manufacturers:
Flexy chainstays - it's the lateral movement that is the problem, not vertical IMO
Over technical frame joints when a simple pin joint would be stronger, lighter.
Belt adjustment systems that allow users to misalign belt. Near enough is not good enough.

*It may be that they're doing it ok and it's only a small proportion, but we are seeing a lot of very negative comments.

It frustrates me that the very simple basics needed for a successful belt drive are being ignored. This is information that has been around for a long time.

The technology is too good to let go to waste.

I'll shut up now. I think I've prodded too many sacred cows and upset the odd buggy whip manufacturer...


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## Climber999 (May 2, 2009)

Kudos for Velobike. The man is tenacious over an above.

I would like to point out that a German company Nicolai produces frames designed around a belt drive. Their stays are exceedingly stiff, which seems a high price to pay for the pleasure of riding a belt.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Velobike said:


> Ta Sparticus
> 
> I suppose what I'm trying to get across is if it ain't working they're doing it wrong. They being the bike manufacturers.*
> 
> ...


No, I don't think anyone is that emotionally invested in their chains and cogs, although I guess ya never now. I do agree that you are a passionate advocate and that is to your credit.

I just wonder if it is all worth the trouble. It is not for me, but so what? I hope they can make it work so others can enjoy it. Perhaps the basic info to make it work is not the way folks want to build a bike, which by the way, needs to do other things besides accommodate a new drive system.

I hope to ride one at I-Bike and that has been offered to me from one builder. We shall see. Maybe I will join you on your soapbox for a sermon.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

*Schlumpf are on the job*


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## morgan-tec (Jun 20, 2010)

Here is my freshly rebuilt Fuji tahoe pro 29er with my custom belt drive conversion. I machined a 6061 aluminum coupler, split the frame, welded it in, reheat treated the frame, and powdercoated it. 21 lbs with crappy wheelset, new wheels should shave almost 2lbs off. This is what you can do when you do the math on the belt length and the cog diameters, i ordered all the parts to end up .100" shorter than my chain stays measured, drop the axle in the drop outs and the belt is at perfect tension.

08 Fuji Tahoe 29er pro frame with custom 6061 splice for belt install, powdercoated white
Nuke proof Carbon rigid fork
Matrix Carbon bar stem combo
ESI grips
Avid Juicy 5 brakes with 160mm rotors
Crank creek headset
FSA v-drive cranks powdercoated white
FSA carbon seatpost
FSA mega exo BB
Crankbrothers mallett pedals
Gates 46/24 cogs, 118T belt
WTB lazerdisc rims laced to Fuji hubs
Kenda small block 8 tires
Custom 6061 aluminum belt retainer ring


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