# do I need spoke prep?



## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

So I'm lacing up a new wheel and for some reason most (but not all) of the nipples won't thread in all the way. I back them off and scrub off the spoke prep, thinking that maybe I put too much on and its clogging up the threads. Still no dice. Eventually I realized that most (but not all) of the nipples the shop gave me are for 15 gauge spokes, instead of the 14 gauge spokes I'm using. I pulled just enough new nipples out of my parts bin and I'm back in business. But now I have removed most of the spoke prep from the spoke threads. Do I have to unthread the wheel and re-apply spoke prep? Or is there a shortcut way to do this, maybe dip the tip of the new nipples in spoke prep as I install each one?


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

I never use Spoke Prep. Just Phil's Tenacious Oil. Mike T. uses only antiseize.


----------



## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I like to use spoke prep but since it is for a front wheel posted in the singlespeed forum (Not downhill) I would say just keep an eye on the tension and ride it as is. Spokeprep does tend to help keep your wheels tensioned a little better though.


----------



## Nonracerrichie (Dec 20, 2005)

I just use a bit of finish line wet lube when lacing and spoke freeze when done. I wouldn't worry about lack of spoke prep as much as lack of tension.


----------



## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

I use marine grade anti-sieze. Just put a dab of the lube inside the nipple on the spoke side, and also a dab where the nipple meets the rim.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Blue Loctite. Simple.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

pvd said:


> Blue Loctite. Simple.


*NEVER!* If you need to use Loctite to keep a wheel from loosening you do not know how to build a wheel.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

AKamp said:


> I like to use spoke prep but since it is for a front wheel posted in the singlespeed forum (Not downhill) I would say just keep an eye on the tension and ride it as is. Spokeprep does tend to help keep your wheels tensioned a little better though.


Tensioned evenly and properly a wheel does not need a threadlocker and will not loosen much, if any, no matter the usage.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shiggy said:


> *NEVER!*


I totally disagree.

have you ever tried blue loctite on wheels?


----------



## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

So is spoke prep just a lube? I thought it also gummed up the threads to prevent de-threading.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

spoke prep or linseed oil.only use loctite if mixed with a light oil.your probably gonna want to turn the nipples some time in the future


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

hollister said:


> only use loctite if mixed with a light oil.


this is just dangerous advise. loctite should never be mixed with either oil or plastic.

do not kill people with advise like this.


----------



## Becane73 (Sep 26, 2006)

I used Park Tool PolyLube 1000 Lubricant

http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=8&item=PPL-1

Not sure if it's any good, being my first wheel build and all. Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Nonracerrichie (Dec 20, 2005)

Spoke prep is like a very low strength loc-tite in a thicker form (It may be made by Loctite but I haven't used it in a while). DT spoke freeze is made by Loctite and is simply very low strength Loc-tite. Blue loctite is overkill and will probably result in rounded nips unless you only use a teeny tiny bit. Just about any kind of lube during lace up is all that is necessary. Light grease, oil, chainlube, all work. Antisieze is pretty toxic so I avoid it. I like the DT after building as it seals the threads to water quite well for future adjustments.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

*im a wheelsmith guy*



pvd said:


> this is just dangerous advise. loctite should never be mixed with either oil or plastic.
> 
> do not kill people with advise like this.


your funny.........

but dt/swiss disagrees with you


----------



## slowridemo (Jan 17, 2006)

FishMan473 said:


> So is spoke prep just a lube? I thought it also gummed up the threads to prevent de-threading.


Spoke prep is supposed to make the spokes easier to work with at high tension by keeping them "lubed" while keeping them from loosening at lower tensions. Although I find it still seems to make the nipples harder to turn at high tension. As shiggy said a wheel at proper full tension with even tension all of the way around shouldn't really need something like that, but if it's your first wheel I'd highly recommend using something like spoke prep, spoke freeze, rock n roll's nipple cream, or even old linseed oil. And I'd recommend using brass nipples for your first build. Alloy ones are just too finicky and can really get stuck by those products.


----------



## presslab (Jan 5, 2007)

Nonracerrichie said:


> Antisieze is pretty toxic so I avoid it.


This made me wonder so I looked up the MSDS on the stuff I use, Loctite 34395. Looks pretty harmless. I think some antisieze stuff uses lead, which is bad of course.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

pvd said:


> I totally disagree.
> 
> have you ever tried blue loctite on wheels?


I have never needed to. My wheels do not loosen. If (a big if) I need to do any truing I do not want any thread-locker making it tougher to turn the nipple. I use nothing but oil on the threads for building and maintenance.

Same applies for machine built wheels I have. I will retension and true after oiling the threads and they stay that way.

Thread-lock is a crutch to hide a bad build.


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

Shorcut - dip the point of a folded paper towel in spoke prep and dab it onto the threads. You only need a very small amount of the stuff anyway -- if you think you are using to much there is a good chance that you are.

I've built with spoke prep, grease and light oil. All sparingly. No issues.

You shouldn't need Loc-tite to hold a wheel together. At best, it is overkill.


----------



## pcxmbfj (Apr 7, 2006)

*Need for Spoke Prep?*

IMHO Spoke Prep is a facilitator that is not harmful but is unnecessary. Linseed oil was used for years before SP was available. Main function of both is lubrication to ease tightening of the spoke.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shiggy said:


> I have never needed to. My wheels do not loosen. If (a big if) I need to do any truing I do not want any thread-locker making it tougher to turn the nipple. I use nothing but oil on the threads for building and maintenance.
> 
> ...
> 
> Thread-lock is a crutch to hide a bad build.


If you have not used it, then how do you know. I have been using blue loctite on wheels for over 10 years. never a problem. my wheels are very strong.










EXAMPLE: This wheel is still true.


----------



## offtheedge (Jul 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> If you have not used it, then how do you know. I have been using blue loctite on wheels for over 10 years. never a problem. my wheels are very strong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


..........and so easy to true


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

offtheedge said:


> ..........and so easy to true


the spokes and aluminum nipples from that wheel were reused for the new rim. I'm still riding it with no problems.


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

pvd said:


> If you have not used it, then how do you know. I have been using blue loctite on wheels for over 10 years. never a problem. my wheels are very strong.


If you have built wheels without loctite and they loosened up, they were not competently built. If you have built wheels *without* loctite and they *didn't* fall apart, they were competently built and loctite is unnecessary.

If you have never built wheels without loctite, you don't have any basis for recommending loctite, as you wouldn't know if it makes the build and maintenance more difficult.

And that wheel pic doesn't prove a whole lot, though the story behind it makes me wonder when the pvdwiki entries "Preparing for a Race" and "Riding a Bicycle Safely and Competently" will appear.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

i have built wheels with:

1. brass nipples and oil.
2. brass nipples and nothing.
3. brass nipples and locktite.
4. brass nipples and linseed oil.
5. alloy nipples and oil.
6. alloy nipples and nothing.
7. alloy nipples and loctite and greased rim.
8. alloy nipples and loctite and greased grommet

they will all make a fine wheel at the end of the day, but loctite on the threads make the wheel much easier to true when needed.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> And that wheel pic doesn't prove a whole lot, though the story behind it makes me wonder when the pvdwiki entries "Preparing for a Race" and "Riding a Bicycle Safely and Competently" will appear.


obviously, you have never raced the Downieville Downhill.


----------



## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I never realized spoke preparation could elicit such passions. 

I'll just put a dab of Tenacious lube on the threads of each spoke. Thanks guys!


----------



## pcxmbfj (Apr 7, 2006)

*Rim Riding*

IMHO it is totally awsome to do any mtb riding on just a rim.


----------



## nbrennan (Oct 31, 2006)

i finished building a wheel 20 minutes ago. i used spoke prep, but the stuff is pricey. Linseed oil and phil lube is great. dont get bogged down in the jargon too much, just lace the wheel well, keep the tension consistent. ride and check frequently... actually, ride very frequently! consistent tension and roundness are key in wheel durability.


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

I prefer the P2P race - same terrain (minus Butcher ranch, which I have also ridden). Does being shuttled to the top and hiding behind a bunch of gears and suspension on the way down make you a bad a$$?

I'm just wondering why you would risk your neck to complete a race that you couldn't be bothered to adequately prep for.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I'm just wondering why you would risk your neck to complete a race...


you will never understand. DNF is a four letter word.


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

pvd said:


> you will never understand. DNF is a four letter word.


I've learned to show up to events with the equipment I need and the skills to ride it successfully. Ounce of prevention.


----------



## Cleve Lansteamer (Mar 26, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I've learned to show up to events with the equipment I need and the skills to ride it successfully. Ounce of prevention.


Oh, you mean like a purse full of tampons and some ointment for your hatchet wound?


----------



## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

pvd said:


> you will never understand. DNF is a four letter word.


 it _is_ pretty badass to finish a race on a rim (not to mention on a psylo  ) full credit for finishing the race.


----------



## Guest (Jan 11, 2007)

shiggy said:


> *NEVER!* If you need to use Loctite to keep a wheel from loosening you do not know how to build a wheel.


Nope, Spinergy uses Loctite on their wheels from the factory, and my local bike shop does the same thing. Keep in mind that I'm talking about Spinergy's pbo spokes if that makes a difference. Carbon spokes have different properties though. Who knows if that's it considering that one still uses aluminum spokes.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

+1 for the Tenacious Lube. I'm anti-spoke prep, I won't even comment on Loctite. As others have said, if the wheel is built well you don't need it. The only credible mechanics that I've seen cling to Spokeprep are the crazy old Guru types who have not changed anything in their lives since 1960. Lubed nipples won't seize, will allow proper tensioning (no spoke twist), and once evenly tensioned won't loosen.


----------



## mtnpat (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> If you have not used it, then how do you know.


Because he is smarter than you.


----------



## flipnidaho (Aug 10, 2004)

Linseed oil user here...


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

It is a stunt few would try and fewer would pull off, to be sure. Whether that qualifies as badass or poor judgement (or both) is subjective.

Still doesn't say anything about whether loctite makes for a easier to maintain wheel.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Still doesn't say anything about whether loctite makes for a easier to maintain wheel.


one of the design features of a threadlocker is that it prevents corrosion on the threads so that the fastener will release predictably throughout it's life. by using a threadlocker, the same torque is required for release in two hours or ten years.

oils wash away, so the threads corrode over time. not a good method.

spoke prep is just a threadlocker. loctite is cheaper and better.

blue loctite has never created any issue with regard to release. i know this because i have actually tried it.

thinking something doesn't work is very different from knowing it does.


----------



## SpinWheelz (May 3, 2004)

pvd said:


> thinking something doesn't work is very different from knowing it does.


Quite a bit like thinking most people don't need a bashguard, right? Because you've personally ridden every single trail on planet Earth. Therefore, you _know_.

*yawn*


----------



## PeanutButterBreath (Oct 7, 2005)

Sounds like just the ticket for someone who needs a wheel to last 10 years. Like I said, overkill & unecessary.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*Loctite 101.*

Loctite does not physically bind anything. What it does is fill the gaps between threads so that when there is tension cycling of the fastener it will not unscrew. Loctite is fine for wheel builds, unnecessary in some cases but any type of threadlocker is useful for longer thin spoke build like Revo's on 700c rims. Use what you like and screw the so-called forum experts.


----------



## b1umb0y (Feb 28, 2005)

Rivet said:


> Loctite does not physically bind anything. What it does is fill the gaps between threads so that when there is tension cycling of the fastener it will not unscrew. Loctite is fine for wheel builds, unnecessary in some cases but any type of threadlocker is useful for longer thin spoke build like Revo's on 700c rims. Use what you like and screw the so-called forum experts.


I like you.

bb


----------



## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

pvd said:


> obviously, you have never raced the Downieville Downhill.


That's awesome. How far into the race did you lose your tire? What happened? We need a story and pics


----------



## quaffimodo (May 25, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Tensioned evenly and properly a wheel does not need a threadlocker and will not loosen much, if any, no matter the usage.


This appears to be the one indisputable truth contained in this entire thread.


----------



## BikeMk (Mar 2, 2004)

Ok fine. I'll jump into the fray with my $0.02. 

Blue Loctite, dripped into the nipple/thread interface when the wheel build is done. Spin the wheel hard to help it work in a bit. Let it dry. Gets a little bit in there, but not so much that the nips become hard to turn. The Loctite is good for at least 5 major truing adjustments, at which point it becomes a little less effective as it's worn through use. Two old-time wheelbuilders I know well use this method on lots of wheels to good effect. The main advantage is that it's faster and you don't have to prep the spokes in advance. 

Spoke prep also works nicely. It does have a tendency to dry out before you can use it all up though. Next nice wheel build I do I'm going to use linseed oil (which gets sticky if you let it dry out a bit--which you can do either before you lace the wheel up, or afterwards by hanging the wheel and not riding it for a while. Takes much longer the second way though). Why? Tradition and curiosity. 

I don't dispute that a wheel can function well with a drop of lube or grease if it's properly tensioned, but I prefer to have a bit of extra insurance.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

BikeMk said:


> Blue Loctite, dripped into the nipple/thread interface when the wheel build is done...
> 
> Next nice wheel build I do I'm going to use linseed oil ...


Blue loctite does not work that way. you should be using Loctite 290 if you are using that technique. see: http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/290-EN.pdf

linseed oil is a total waste of time. i used it once to try it. it was a joke.


----------



## Bike Nazi (Apr 3, 2004)

*Motor oil or linseed oil works good*



FishMan473 said:


> So I'm lacing up a new wheel and for some reason most (but not all) of the nipples won't thread in all the way. I back them off and scrub off the spoke prep, thinking that maybe I put too much on and its clogging up the threads. Still no dice. Eventually I realized that most (but not all) of the nipples the shop gave me are for 15 gauge spokes, instead of the 14 gauge spokes I'm using. I pulled just enough new nipples out of my parts bin and I'm back in business. But now I have removed most of the spoke prep from the spoke threads. Do I have to unthread the wheel and re-apply spoke prep? Or is there a shortcut way to do this, maybe dip the tip of the new nipples in spoke prep as I install each one?


I use chain lube, not as thick or as good but I re-apply before truing.


----------



## 23mjm (Oct 22, 2005)

Loctite blue on spoke threads??? NO NO NO, Someone correct me if I am wrong---Loctite is a thread locking compound or a glue for threads. Having built engines and worked in bike shops as a mechanic I have used Blue Loctite lots--The Loctite is a one and done application--so if you were to use it on spokes it would in-fact keep the nipple from turning UNTIL you had to true it. Then it would no longer Loctited!!! Now as a long time shop mechanic I have build 100's and 100's of wheels and to the best of my knowledge I have never had a wheel come undone using only Wheelsmith Spokeprep and mostly DT spoke. Spokes are the wrong application for Blue Loctite. Just a thought.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

shiggy said:


> I have never needed to. My wheels do not loosen. If (a big if) I need to do any truing I do not want any thread-locker making it tougher to turn the nipple. I use nothing but oil on the threads for building and maintenance.
> Same applies for machine built wheels I have. I will retension and true after oiling the threads and they stay that way.
> Thread-lock is a crutch to hide a bad build.


Here's the dealio from a lifetime of wheelbuilding, reading about wheelbuilding, reading others' stories and findings from wheelbuilding.

1. If nipples unscrew they were never tight enough in the first place.
2. If one needs loctite then one isn't tightening nipples enough. 
3. If one uses loctite when nipples have never loosened then it can't be stated that loctite is necessary. If they have loosened then see #1.
4. Grease or oil on spoke threads probably will last the life of most wheels.
5. Anti-seize probably has a half-life longer than most of us will live.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> I totally disagree.
> 
> have you ever tried blue loctite on wheels?


The question from those of us who've built and trued hundreds of wheels (and know just how stupid using a threadlocker is, especially blue loctite) would be, just how many wheels you've built ?


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

FishMan473 said:


> So is spoke prep just a lube? I thought it also gummed up the threads to prevent de-threading.


gumming the threads isn't the same as hardening them together as loctite does when it cures. When blue loctite cures it turns solid, if you adjust the nipples post curing (tighten or loosen) it'll break the loctite and it'll no longer do anything at all, assuming of course, you don't round the nipples trying to break it free.


----------



## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Awww, hell, why not just get steel nipples made a WELD the friggin' things in there! That'll teach 'em for going loose.   

Copper or silver anti-sieze user here for numerous builds (sorry, not hundreds, but over a dozen). Never a problem.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Here's the dealio from a lifetime of wheelbuilding, reading about wheelbuilding, reading others' stories and findings from wheelbuilding.
> 
> 1. If nipples unscrew they were never tight enough in the first place.
> 2. If one needs loctite then one isn't tightening nipples enough.
> ...


at least #5 is right.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

AndrewTO said:


> Copper or silver anti-sieze user here for numerous builds (sorry, not hundreds, but over a dozen). Never a problem.


why would you use the incorrect grade of loctite? zinc or nickel are the correct grades, depending on nipple choice.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

DeeEight said:


> just how many wheels you've built ?


doing something wrong hundreds and hundreds of times or for 40 years, doesn't mean that someone understands what they are doing, just repeating.

how many motorcycle wheels have you built?


----------



## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

*OT: Threadlocker on pedal threads*

Wow, must be dry fuels and high winds cause the flaming here is getting out of control.

All this talk about threadlocker is getting me to thinking. I get a squeaking from the pedals on both my SS and geared bike. I'm 90% sure that it's because the cranks are old and the threads are worn in since the pedal wobbles in the threads unless you have it cranked down all the way (ie it can be wobbled while I am threading the pedals in). If threadlocker fills in the spaces between the male and female threads, then could I use it to shut my pedals the hell up? I'm guessing the blue would be too strong and I'd have a hard time getting those pedals off again, any recommendations as to which compound I could use? And yes I've tried grease and anti-seize and it still squeaks.


----------



## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Getting off topic, but at least I'll answer in one single post to lessen the high winds and avoid being a post whore. If the threads in your cranks are that worn out, It may be time for new cranks/pedals. You could try Locktite, you could brake that with a pedal wrench and a little heat. But if they are bad enough they have play in them it's desperation time, a helicoil maybe? In a last ditch effort you could try Loctite 609RC or 680RC (Retaining Compound). It's pretty much permanent. Heat will brake it, but probably more heat than you’d want to throw at Al cranks. Find a Trek Dealer that sells lots of Gary Fishers, they have probably had to get some of the stuff to fix the pivot bearings on a few model years of Cakes. Anything else short of going ghetto with a pop can shim will start wobbling again. So anything is going to make it hard to get those pedals off again, short of new cranks.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> The question from those of us who've built and trued hundreds of wheels (and know just how stupid using a threadlocker is, especially blue loctite) would be, just how many wheels you've built ?


its pointless dude.he wont listen.

dontplaywiththemoron


----------



## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*I think I would start with teflon tape..*



FishMan473 said:


> Wow, must be dry fuels and high winds cause the flaming here is getting out of control.
> 
> All this talk about threadlocker is getting me to thinking. I get a squeaking from the pedals on both my SS and geared bike. I'm 90% sure that it's because the cranks are old and the threads are worn in since the pedal wobbles in the threads unless you have it cranked down all the way (ie it can be wobbled while I am threading the pedals in). If threadlocker fills in the spaces between the male and female threads, then could I use it to shut my pedals the hell up? I'm guessing the blue would be too strong and I'd have a hard time getting those pedals off again, any recommendations as to which compound I could use? And yes I've tried grease and anti-seize and it still squeaks.


I think I would start with teflon tape..

I have never built a wheel and I think I used loctite a few times on a bolt or two when it was spec'd. I did however call my wheel guru, Jeff Hoover. Jeff is renouned for his wheel building ability. Jeff says he uses Triflow on most the nipples except the non-drive side of the rear wheel. There he actually winds little pieces of teflon tape on the end of the spokes (I've seen these and always wondered what they were). Jeff says these are the spokes that are going to come loose, and the teflon tape acts as a "nylon" lock nut and holds the nipple in place while still allowing then to be moved if necessary. It sounds a little like what pvd was talking about with his loctite. Jeff said you could use the teflon tape on all the spokes if you want to, but it's extremely labor intensive and probably not worth the trouble.

Anyway, Jeff is the reason I have never learned to build wheels. His prices are very reasonable and I have about ten wheel sets he has laced for me on not one has ever gone out of true (of course I have never tried riding on the rim).

Brad


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> doing something wrong hundreds and hundreds of times or for 40 years, doesn't mean that someone understands what they are doing, just repeating.
> 
> how many motorcycle wheels have you built?


And as we've all discovered from other threads, you've been doing things wrong for a long time, and worse, you've come here to share your moronic behaviour with us.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

FishMan473 said:


> If threadlocker fills in the spaces between the male and female threads, then could I use it to shut my pedals the hell up? I'm guessing the blue would be too strong and I'd have a hard time getting those pedals off again, any recommendations as to which compound I could use? And yes I've tried grease and anti-seize and it still squeaks.


Loctite makes a form-a-thread compound that works better for this application, you could also use plumbers teflon tape if you have any. But squeaking and creaking interfaces are usually caused by microscopic flakes of metal trapped between the surfaces (whether it be the tapers or splines on a crank/bb interface or the threads of pedals/cranks) and the part is rocking ever so slightly back and forth in service over these trapped pieces of metal, and this is causing the creaking. Take 'em apart, clean them thoroughly with rubbing alcohol and a plastic toothbrush, then reassemble with new lube.


----------



## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Better stated from Law Enforcement..*



pvd said:


> doing something wrong hundreds and hundreds of times or for 40 years, doesn't mean that someone understands what they are doing, just repeating.
> 
> how many motorcycle wheels have you built?


Some cops have 20 years of experience and some have 1 year of experience 20 years in a row.    

1G1G, Brad


----------

