# What makes a Klein a true Klein?



## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

We all have our different opinions about this topic. Is a post-trek klein a true klein? Is it a good quality bike? I happen to think so. Lets argue!!!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

TheRedMantra said:


> We all have our different opinions about this topic. Is a post-trek klein a true klein? Is it a good quality bike? I happen to think so. Lets argue!!!


I'd say that anything made prior to 2003 is a true Klein. Production moved to Wisconsin with the 2003 model year.

That said, based on hearing comments from customers doing test rides at a shop that I used to work at, the Wisconsin-made Klein road bikes were a nicer ride than the Washington-made bikes (and cheaper too). To me, they stopped being "true Kleins" but might very well be better bikes.


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

I read alot of arguments that a post 1996 Kleins are not true Kleins. I understand that the sale of Klein to Trek makes alot of people feel that. I'm trying to understand if just the simple fact of different ownership is the defining issue or if there are other issues that make people feel that way. Is it great wild paint, oversized steerer/headtube, internally routed cables, magically butted/bent/shaped thin-wall aluminum tubes that define a true Klein. If so, then my 92 Rascal is not a true Klein (uses a 1" steertube) but my 2001 Adroit is (has all of those features). Or must it have the pressed-in bottom bracket and built-in seat post collar only. Then my Adroit is not a true Klein but my Rascal is. Is it all of those things plus being built while the Klein Corp. was Trek free. Then, I know of some Adroits and Attitudes that are true Kleins (not considering road bikes), but all of those beautiful Mountain Kleins, Top Guns, Rascals, and Pinnacles are not true Kleins. I personally think that any bike bearing the Klein name is a true Klein - some over the years have been better bikes than others or had more of the defining Klein features, but they're all Kleins in my book.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

The oversized steerer/stem only applies to 1990-1996 Attitudes and Adroits as they were the only models that offered that feature. Your 2001 Adroit uses a 1 1/8" stem the standard size. The forks steerer is inlarged at the bearing interface because of the Airheadset system that was still in use.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Ok, Here's My Stance*



TheRedMantra said:


> We all have our different opinions about this topic. Is a post-trek klein a true klein? Is it a good quality bike? I happen to think so. Lets argue!!!


Any Klein produced before the Trek purchase is a Klein.

Any "Klein" produced after the Trek purchase is a Klek? Trein? Just another bike?

Basically all innovation ended when the company changed hands. The features unique to Klein frames slowly disappeared and they became more mainstream. As I said in the Klein Pics thread there has been no new Klein design since the Mantra. What happened to crazy ideas like the smart bar? Zip Grip seat collars? forks with legs of greater diameter than most bikes downtubes? the MC1 from 1989-90 that everybody is basically copying on a smaller scale with the integrated headsets? aluminum tubes reinforced with carbon/boron (hmmm isnt Titus doing this in a more high tech fashion 10+ years later)?

The quality of the bike might be similar and I guarantee that the frames are more comfortable to ride.


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

*Innovations*

The smart bar and post died because of the rapid wear characteristics of the "spring" mechanism. The Zip Grip died (and was recalled) because it kept the post from slipping up or down by could not keep the post from rotating. The huge rigid forks died at the advent of front suspension. The MC series with integrated bars died because so many riders wanted to have a better choice of bars based on materials, lengths, bends, etc. I think that the MC1 died due to the advent of the aheadset. All very cool innovations, some times you have a winner other times - back to the drawing board. I'm not sure why we don't see more Mantra inspired suspension designs these days?

Many early innovations carried on for years after the sale of Klein. Internally routed cables, extensive manipulating of big thin-walled aluminum, wild paint jobs, debossed "lettering" on frames, beautiful welds, oversized steertubes/headsets. Many of these things unique to Klein. The MC2 series carried on the idea of the MC1 just in an aheadset format I believe. I LOVE the MC1 on my Rascal due to the "chi-chi" factor but the MC3 on my Adroit beats it hands down since I can change bars whenever I want for whatever reason I choose.

All of the Kleins I own (pre and post Trek) have features unique to them that were not offered by any other manufacturer at the time. The unique things have dwindle over time - that's for sure, sad to say. There still all Kleins in my book.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

MoonriseRascal said:


> All of the Kleins I own (pre and post Trek) have features unique to them that were not offered by any other manufacturer at the time. The unique things have dwindle over time - that's for sure, sad to say. There still all Kleins in my book.


Don't forget the crazy rear entry drop-outs either - definitely a Klein-only feature. They recently went the way of the dinaosaur too.


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

*Adroit Steertube*

The 2001 Adroit does not use a standard 1 1/8 clamp stem. It does use the MC3 stem which is a more traditional "ahead" style pinch bolt stem vs the MC2, but it clamps to an oversized steertube that is Klein specific.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Really?*

I have 3 MC3 stems and all are 1 1/8" steerer diameter.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Internal Cable Routing*

Internal cable routing was not a Klein innovation...several road bikes had been using that idea for decades...Colnago nad Vitus to name 2. My Vitus MTB frame had internal routing as well.

As for the smooth welds...they are smooth because they're finished that way. A lot of maunfacturers do that.

These are not Klein unique features that continue to set Kleins apart from other bikes.


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

*Yes, I'm sure*



Shayne said:


> I have 3 MC3 stems and all are 1 1/8" steerer diameter.


Yes, I'm sure about the MC3 for the Adroit being oversized. If your sure that your MC3s are 1 1/8" then they are for the Mantra. The Adroit used the oversized steertube/headtube up through the end of production. The Mantra used an oem adapter which allowed use of the 1 1/8 steertube forks for at least part of its production run (possibly the full run).


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

Shayne said:


> Internal cable routing was not a Klein innovation...several road bikes had been using that idea for decades...Colnago nad Vitus to name 2. My Vitus MTB frame had internal routing as well.
> 
> As for the smooth welds...they are smooth because they're finished that way. A lot of maunfacturers do that.
> 
> These are not Klein unique features that continue to set Kleins apart from other bikes.


I don't follow road bikes - wasn't aware that Klein copied that from others. Interesting. I'm not familiar with Vitus mountain bikes (or road for that matter). When I bought my first Klein in 92 I was sure that they were the only mountain bike with internally routed cables. Boy, was I off. I was really bummed to see the newer frames not have all cables internally routed.

I didn't mean to give the impression that smooth welds are unique to Klein. I just see consistent high quality welds on their frames.

Does Vitus still produce mountain frames with internal cable routing?

So what sets pre-Trek Kleins apart form post-Trek Kleins? Is post-Trek considered to start at 96 or 97 model year?


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## blehargh (Feb 13, 2004)

*Still Around...*



laffeaux said:


> Don't forget the crazy rear entry drop-outs either - definitely a Klein-only feature. They recently went the way of the dinaosaur too.


Nope. they are still alive and kicking, tho on the klein road bikes only. The rear dropouts are kinda nice actually. you don't ever really have to worry about centering the wheel in the dropouts, tho you do have to get your fingers dirty on the chain...

10 bucks says the reason they got rid of them on mtn bikes is IS disc brakes. i bet the wheel would pop out of the dropout due to the disc brake forces. yes i know they had old 22mm hayes disc tabs with the rear dropout, but the mount was on the chainstay, so the brake forces were in a different direction.

-don


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## blehargh (Feb 13, 2004)

Shayne said:


> As for the smooth welds...they are smooth because they're finished that way. A lot of maunfacturers do that.


the smooth welds are not finished like other manufacturers. it's the actual weld. the most that they do with it is is pretty minimal touch ups, but i mean minimal.

-don


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

MoonriseRascal said:


> When I bought my first Klein in 92 I was sure that they were the only mountain bike with internally routed cables.


My first mtb was a '91 GT. It came with the an internally routed rear brake cable (although the derailler cables were not). Other manufacturers definitely used internal routing, just not as often as Klein. Some road bikes route the rear derailler cabe through the drive side chain stay, making for a trick set up.

With more than 100 years of bicycle development prior to Klein, he (and everyone else) are able to pull from the "best" ideas to make bikes.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

I dislike them on my Quantum Pro because wheel changes take 2-3 times as long and when the clock it ticking in a race that is no good.

I didnt mind the original longer ones on the mtb frames from 1990-1993, I found those much easier to get the wheel out of with a minimal of moving the derailleur and chain.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Where's the SOUL once Elvis left the building .. . .*



laffeaux said:


> My first mtb was a '91 GT. It came with the an internally routed rear brake cable (although the derailler cables were not). Other manufacturers definitely used internal routing, just not as often as Klein. Some road bikes route the rear derailler cabe through the drive side chain stay, making for a trick set up.
> 
> With more than 100 years of bicycle development prior to Klein, he (and everyone else) are able to pull from the "best" ideas to make bikes.


I think vision and soul are the things that are missing once "elvis let the building" in 1996. Gary's vision was to have an unrelenting commintment to build the abosolute best possible aluminum bike and this vision and the execution of it created "Soul" for the Klein company.

I agree that reimplementing old ideas is common, but it's still innovation in my mind if it goes counter to the mainstream bike building efforts of the era. It's a lot easier to build "me too bikes" and a lot harder to bravely attempt to be different.

Under Gary Klein's direction, the Klein bikes always had a consistent stream of unique features that made them different and special for the era. He also supported a top tier race development program to push his products and constantly refine them. Some of these ideas were good, some were bad, but undoubtably they were different and special for the period.

I think the question is "what is innovative post 1996 has Trek-Klein offered to carry the battle flag for the "Klien's soulful commitment" to build the "best aluminum bikes ever" ? Sure the Trek-Kliens may still be good riding bikes, but so are dozens of other vanilla aluminum bikes coming out of Taiwain and China that ride good and are nearly identical? With the execption of the sticker, nothing stands out about the Trek-Kleins at this point.

Regarding the Rascal's and older Kleins - they were innovative for using aluminium and having amazing paint jobs at a time when this wasn't yet common.

As far as the list of innovative features, how about the use of carbon/boron wrap on the aluminum fork legs for dampening and strength. Perhaps it wasn't perfectly implemented but the idea was certainly way ahead of the times and different. Also remember that unique seat post locking system instead of a pinch bolt? How about the parellelogram suspension seat post which Klein was working on that was never released. The list of innovative ideas goes on and on.

I challenge anyone to argue that the "soul of innovation" which "IS" what makes the pre-1996 Kleins "TRUE Kleins" still exists with the Trek-Kleins. Trek has not pushed anything new or special into there Klein implementations. They are pretty vanilla at this point and the Klein name is nothing more than a marketing tool. Yes they are great bikes, but the SOUL of the original Kleins is missing. I equate Trek-Kleins to a good cover band. They may sound great singing a old song but they'll never be the real deal - it takes more than just carbon copies.

Soulful vision and execution is what makes any bike company special and different from any others, not the sticker on the bike. I think the Raleigh MTB brand after Tomac left or the Yeti brand during the dark days after John Parker left are similiar situations. The soul of the company left and they became vanilla and boring. (It's worth noting that Yeti's is back on the right track of "soulful bikes" since the original employees repurchased the company)

Bring back the vision and soul which means a commitment to incorporate an "unrelenting innonovation and a no holds barred constant refinement of designs" style to build "the best aluminum bikes ever" and you bring back the SOUL of Klein. Anything short of this is just a knock off with a sticker.

Are 2004 Cannondales really true "Cannondales" now that the Montgomery's and Glasso are gone? How about GT's now that Pacific Cycles owns them and Gary Turner is gone? I doubt will see a amazing Olympic superbike from GT any time soon or a mind blowing concept bike design from Cannondale . . .

-Mtnwing


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*I question that but I've never watched one finished*



blehargh said:


> the smooth welds are not finished like other manufacturers. it's the actual weld. the most that they do with it is is pretty minimal touch ups, but i mean minimal.
> 
> -don


The only areas on my Attitude that look like they were even welded are the square crown on the fork and the bar stem juncture on the MC1. The rest of the joints have been pretty extensivly sanded as the frame could pass for one piece. Imperfections cant even be felt by running your fingernail across the joints....they're smoother than a brazed steel joint.

Its pretty much impossible to weld aluminum with a smooth bead. The amound of filler material required for a good joint will leave a rippled or scaled bead no matter how skilled a welder you are.

Oh and do any of you early Klein owners have a headset cover with the Klein logo on it like this one on your fuselage?


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

Soulful vision and execution is what makes any bike company special and different from any others, not the sticker on the bike. I think the Raleigh MTB brand after Tomac left or the Yeti brand during the dark days after John Parker left are similiar situations. The soul of the company left and they became vanilla and boring. (It's worth noting that Yeti's is back on the right track of "soulful bikes" since the original employees repurchased the company)

Bring back the vision and soul which means a commitment to incorporate an "unrelenting innonovation and a no holds barred constant refinement of designs" style to build "the best aluminum bikes ever" and you bring back the SOUL of Klein. Anything short of this is just a knock off with a sticker.

Are 2004 Cannondales really true "Cannondales" now that the Montgomery's and Glasso are gone? How about GT's now that Pacific Cycles owns them and Gary Turner is gone? I doubt will see a amazing Olympic superbike from GT any time soon or a mind blowing concept bike design from Cannondale . . .

-Mtnwing[/QUOTE] 
I tend to agree with this arguement. I owned two 92 Attitudes, and bought them mainly because of the quirks that these bikes had then. I agree that the Kleins of this era were pushing the envelope of bicycle design. I agree that Trek has seemingly let this element of Klein die, and now has let Klein become just another "ol bike on the trail". 
I think the other examples of Yeti and GT do bear some resemblance to what happened to Klein. However; I think you will not see this to be true with Cannondale, as the controlling interests in that company have seen the light. They know that to lose the inovation and cutting edge design that they have been known for will kill them like it did Klein, and so many others. They (Cannondale), hope to cement thier status with some new bikes coming down the pipline.....but this is about Klein, sorry!
Point is, if Trek wants to place Klein back at the forefront of technical design execution, they probably could. They just "seem" to be content to be another "me too" bicycle brand. Gary Klein would't be "necessary" to bring them back, but it would not hurt!
Anyway, that's my take, and your welcome to yours, but I don't think Klein has been anything but a "sticker" on a downtube since '96.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Why does everyone say Kleins have such high quality welds?? They are sanded down so much that it could be a big blubbering mess of a weld and you'd never know. Im sure they are good welds but unless you saw them before they took the sander to it you could never know.

Im not a huge Klein fan but I feel the new Kleins are not like the old ones. Like others have said, the innovation has gone and now its just a sticker and a paint job. Its not the same and I dont think its possible for Trek to take it there once again. I dont think a big company buying out the little guys really seems to fulfil the intended goal... I dont know. Unless the goal is to get people to stop buying Bontrager and Klein, maybe thats the goal. I havent seen sales figures pre and post 96 so maybe Im way off anyway ....

The old school Bontrager and Klein buyers for the most part have probably moved on to other brands that are similar to the way Bontrager and Klein used to be.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> .... The old school Bontrager and Klein buyers for the most part have probably moved on to other brands that are similar to the way Bontrager and Klein used to be.


I think the Jeff Steber - Intense, Brent Foes - Foes, and Carl Nicolai - Nicolai are the companies/people which most embody the sole of what Klein once was when Gary Klein held the wheel. These are the companies today that are pushing the envelope of design.

Yeah, it may be downhill bikes and crazy freeride stuff, but currently that's where the innovation and bike design is changing the most like it or not. Fifteen years ago it was hard tail design, Ten years go it was XC suspension, and the past 5 - 7 years it's changing the most in DH and freeride bikes.

-Mtnwing


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

I know this is a bit off topic, but I just have to say that that attitude is sooooo hot!


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

*Foggy explanation of welding technique*

Since there seems to be some question as to the weld quality/technique on Kleins, I thought I might shine a little light on this- maybe a very dim light!
The "usual" method employed here and with Cannondales is that a "hard pass" weld is done first. This weld actually penetrates the tubing, and is the main reason the frame holds together. Then a second pass in the welding process takes place, right over the previous weld. This is what gives the junction some semblance of "flowing together". After these steps the weld area is hand filed/sanded to give a seamless flow at the tubing junctions. It's kind of like filet brazing on steel tubes, only done in a way that is right for aluminium. 
While it is true, you can not see the quality of the welds, if ever a Klein weld were to fail, I think I may have known about it. At least by the number of times I stacked mine up hard! 
Oh well! I hope this helps get someone to properly explain this technique. I just thought someone should weigh in on this.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Im no metalurgist but wouldnt welding it two serperate times be that much more stressful on the tubing? Maybe this necessitated a slightly heavier gauge tubing and why Kleins were never in the super light category?? Anybody?

On a related note, does anybody remember that MountainKlein that came with superlight parts and drop bars? It had the Jubilee derailleur and other crazy light stuff. I seem to recall something like 21 lbs or so....Not bad for 87 or whenever that was....

Then there was also a Project Superlight bike that was a Klein frame built up by the owner of St Henri's shop that weighed about 19 lbs. It had a Yeti fork and Bullseye cranks and some other cool stuff. If I come across that again I'll post it on here. I think it might have been in a Bicycle Guide but not sure.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

As someone said above, I too think companies like Intense, Foes, Nicolai and Ellsworth have steped in and replaced bikes like Klein which have been made "dull" over the years.

And I dont really know if Yeti is back in its original hardcore form as someone said above. What I see is some FS designs that could be any brand out there, Univega, Scott USA or Jamis (not talking about the DH-9 bike since you can still trace its roots back to the original Lawill bike).

Perhaps this is a little bit otb in this thread but I always wonder everytime I go to the Yeti homepage what kind of chairmen in this Yeti company want to make Yeti frames but decide not to paint the bikes in the classic dart paint and have the classic Yeti headbadge on the front tube.

If they at least could put on a huge Easton sticker on the downtube and have CNC machined lavender anodized riveted cable stops on the top tube of the ARC...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I take exception to Scott USA being included in the "me too" list. Scott has one of the best engineers around (Peter Denke) and the innovation is very cutting edge. Look at teh Strike, the Genius, and even the scandium hardtail. They have been putting out the lightest, strongest, and stiffest bikes for the last few years. I really love my Strike. I wont ever sell it. The strike is the lightest 4" travel FS by quite a bit, only 4.3 lbs (lighter than a Santa Cruz Superlight by 1.3lbs) , the hardtail is only 2.5 lbs, etc. These bikes are not noodles either. Very well engineered. They are not handmade, but they have great engineering behind them.


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## blehargh (Feb 13, 2004)

*heat treating post welding...*



Fillet-brazed said:


> Im no metalurgist but wouldnt welding it two serperate times be that much more stressful on the tubing? Maybe this necessitated a slightly heavier gauge tubing and why Kleins were never in the super light category?? Anybody?


here's the klein tech manual '03 go to page 19. there's a blurb on heat treating. the previous page has a blurb on the welds too. i'm talking about the current generations of kleins. not really sure what they did before.

http://www.kleinbikes.com/assets/asset_upload_file416_1172.pdf

GL,
-don


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## MoonriseRascal (Feb 5, 2004)

*Gary Klein's Role?*

Does anybody know what Gary Klein is up to currently. Does he have anything to do with the bikes bearing his name anymore or did he sell and totally move-on? I know that many of the people associated with making the bikes (welders, painters, etc)continued on after 1996 but what about Gary?


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## blehargh (Feb 13, 2004)

yup. that's the one downside. it sux in a race. i'll have to ask my pro racer friend who rides a klein for the team for his opinion on the matter...

-don


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I take exception to Scott USA being included in the "me too" list. Scott has one of the best engineers around (Peter Denke) and the innovation is very cutting edge. Look at teh Strike, the Genius, and even the scandium hardtail. They have been putting out the lightest, strongest, and stiffest bikes for the last few years. I really love my Strike. I wont ever sell it. The strike is the lightest 4" travel FS by quite a bit, only 4.3 lbs (lighter than a Santa Cruz Superlight by 1.3lbs) , the hardtail is only 2.5 lbs, etc. These bikes are not noodles either. Very well engineered. They are not handmade, but they have great engineering behind them.


You are right, I was remebering the bikes from 90-93.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

*Not doin' much.............*



MoonriseRascal said:


> Does anybody know what Gary Klein is up to currently. Does he have anything to do with the bikes bearing his name anymore or did he sell and totally move-on? I know that many of the people associated with making the bikes (welders, painters, etc)continued on after 1996 but what about Gary?


 I read an article recently; I think it was in Dirt Rag, where Gary was profiled. He, apparently, has little if anything to do with the design or construction of "Klein" bicycles. He is spending time messing around in his original shop tinkering around with stuff, from what I remember from the article. I hope someone remembers more clearly than I- but I think this is the case.
I also wouldn't be surprised if he has a non - compete clause that prevents him from doing anything bicycle related outside of "Klein". Just pure speculation on my part there though.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I dont think a big company buying out the little guys really seems to fulfil the intended goal... I dont know. Unless the goal is to get people to stop buying Bontrager and Klein, maybe thats the goal. I havent seen sales figures pre and post 96 so maybe Im way off anyway ....


I think the "intended" goal varries. I think in Bontrager's case, Keith was looking for a consistent adn reliable paycheck. From what he said, he was working hard and was never sure if there would be a paychekc to put food on the table at the end of the day. The Trek buyout insured that he, and his family would have a better life. I can't blame him.

Trek's benefit? At first they got a great steel bike. Unfortunlately in the late '90s a large percentage of consumers decided that steel bikes were not the way of the future and sales of steel bikes dropped off. I'd say that consumers who believed the marketing hype that lower weight AL bikes were the bike of choice brought an end to Bontrager, not Trek. Now Trek owns the Bontrager brand name, which I'm sure sells many more components than previous brand names. I'm certainly more likely to buy Bontrager components than I would buy if they were still called Icon, Matrix, etc. Consumers are also probably more likely to buy a Trek bike with Bontrager components, than a Trek bike with "Trek" branded components. One seems like cheap in-house components, and the other seems like cool after-market stuff. It's great marketing in my opinion.


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## manitou916 (Mar 6, 2004)

Guitar Ted said:


> I read an article recently; I think it was in Dirt Rag, where Gary was profiled. He, apparently, has little if anything to do with the design or construction of "Klein" bicycles. He is spending time messing around in his original shop tinkering around with stuff, from what I remember from the article. I hope someone remembers more clearly than I- but I think this is the case.
> I also wouldn't be surprised if he has a non - compete clause that prevents him from doing anything bicycle related outside of "Klein". Just pure speculation on my part there though.


If this is true then I really can't believe the talent of Gary Klein is going to waste and they have employed monkeys to design and churn out run-of-the-mill Klein bikes instead.

I would imagine if Gary is still under contract then anything he designs now will become the owner of his employers so he will never be able to sell these designs in the future. With any luck he's just passing time until his contract expires and will hit us with a new independent frame building company and tons of fresh innovations... we can only dream?!

Regardless of the $$$ he made selling out to Trek he must regret that the bikes still bearing his name can no longer be associated with the word "exotic". In 1990 it was an honour and pleasure to own my first Klein Attitude, but I would never consider owning a post-1996 Klein because the essence of a Klein and what it meant to own one has since disappeared.

So to answer the original question in this thread... to me a true Klein is a pre-1996 Klein. The bikes which have "Klein" written on them post-1996 are Klein in name only. Unless you were a Klein owner back in the day then it's probably difficult to understand this point of view.


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## mikedesign (Jan 25, 2004)

*welding 101 a quick but not exhaustive guide to welding*



Guitar Ted said:


> Since there seems to be some question as to the weld quality/technique on Kleins, I thought I might shine a little light on this- maybe a very dim light!
> The "usual" method employed here and with Cannondales is that a "hard pass" weld is done first. This weld actually penetrates the tubing, and is the main reason the frame holds together. Then a second pass in the welding process takes place, right over the previous weld. This is what gives the junction some semblance of "flowing together". After these steps the weld area is hand filed/sanded to give a seamless flow at the tubing junctions. It's kind of like filet brazing on steel tubes, only done in a way that is right for aluminium.
> While it is true, you can not see the quality of the welds, if ever a Klein weld were to fail, I think I may have known about it. At least by the number of times I stacked mine up hard!
> Oh well! I hope this helps get someone to properly explain this technique. I just thought someone should weigh in on this.


there seems two be a lot of conjecture on the three current methods of joining aluminium for bikeframe welds

one is to argue that a bog standard single pass weld as laid(the neat fish scale variety) can crack along the edges the method of laying up such welds tends to nead a footpedal to get a really neat weld sometimes magazines refer to them as a pile of coins laid against one and other most welders use a foot pedal to get this kind of visual finish and in some cases while it is strong enough the weld is of a very visual nature and its achieved by melting a puddle and basically increasing the amps to get a big burn in then cooling off on the amps to let it solidify again and again this is sometimes known as a pulse type weld robots are set up to weld this way and specialized and marin both use this method

flaws in this type of weld can be common caused by hot and cold spots resuling in good and bad penetration but on the whole its strong enough for a bike and while you do hear about failujres in marins and spesh bikes on the whole its mostly good

the second is used by skilled welders our boys use it for aerospace welding and it is the most accepted way of joining aero weldments which need to be certified and coded often takes a fair bit of practice and that is to keep constant amps and a very well set up welding set for pre and post flow to just burn and add filler rod it looks like a rough version of the above and the scales are much closer and stacked up on top but what it does provide is a very penetrative weld(please dont jump on my back about tungsten angles and gas type as this is only a basic bit of info about sticking two bits of aluminium together and these also have a very large impact on weld strength)which if sectioned should penetrate both weldments evenly

the third is to burn the tubes together homogenously which i believe is what cannondale and trek did lets go back to when making an aluminium welded frame was in its early stages and this was probably percieved as the best method of joining two tubes together
and from what i recall gary klein did a lot of tests at a well known US university to confirm this and on paper it makes sense if the weld has complete penetration then there is no edge or weld stress riser like the first method to crack along sure the weld puts more heat in and could damage the tube but remember the filler rod is never the same material as the base metal so if you are welding 6061 t6 you dont use 6061 t6 as afiller you use a mor ductile grade of aluminium so the weld is not as hard when the frame s treated back to temper the weld zone is still slightly softer but roughly as strong

sanding the weld will weaken it if material is removed from the edge of the weld as it will be thinned locally thats probably why minimal sanding is done

as far as this goes on paper crack and fail (cannondale)shouldnt and klein did his homework and came up with a clean neat way of sticking aluminium together nearly 14 or 15 years ago even though he probablyborrowed it

just a point of note all the methods above are adequate to join bike but im still a fan of the old way kleins just look sweet


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Yeti evolution*



erkan said:


> Perhaps this is a little bit otb in this thread but I always wonder everytime I go to the Yeti homepage what kind of chairmen in this Yeti company want to make Yeti frames but decide not to paint the bikes in the classic dart paint and have the classic Yeti headbadge on the front tube.
> 
> If they at least could put on a huge Easton sticker on the downtube and have CNC machined lavender anodized riveted cable stops on the top tube of the ARC...


You've got a point on the paint jobs. Why drop one of the coolest and most recognizable spray's ever? doesn't make much sense?

As for the head badge, they've evolved over time before, so I can see the change there, but the old ones were pretty cool and the new one is really different.

Also agree that they could push the envelope a bit more on the designs. I do think that there continued support for racing and there fan following and support, is better than most bike companies though and that goes back to their roots. How many bike companies organize fan rides or send stickers on request?

-Mtnwing


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## Robbz (Aug 11, 2004)

Anyone need any MC3 stuff let me know, both the 1 1/16" road stems and the 1 3/16" ATB stems. Both in various lengths and sizes at very reasonable prices.


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## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

mikedesign said:


> there seems two be a lot of conjecture on the three current methods of joining aluminium for bikeframe welds one is to argue that a bog standard single pass weld as laid(the neat fish scale variety) can crack along the edges the method of laying up such welds tends to nead a footpedal to get a really neat weld sometimes magazines refer to them as a pile of coins laid against one and other most welders use a foot pedal to get this kind of visual finish and in some cases while it is strong enough the weld is of a very visual nature and its achieved by melting a puddle and basically increasing the amps to get a big burn in then cooling off on the amps to let it solidify again and again this is sometimes known as a pulse type weld robots are set up to weld this way and specialized and marin both use this method flaws in this type of weld can be common caused by hot and cold spots resuling in good and bad penetration but on the whole its strong enough for a bike and while you do hear about failujres in marins and spesh bikes on the whole its mostly good the second is used by skilled welders our boys use it for aerospace welding and it is the most accepted way of joining aero weldments which need to be certified and coded often takes a fair bit of practice and that is to keep constant amps and a very well set up welding set for pre and post flow to just burn and add filler rod it looks like a rough version of the above and the scales are much closer and stacked up on top but what it does provide is a very penetrative weld(please dont jump on my back about tungsten angles and gas type as this is only a basic bit of info about sticking two bits of aluminium together and these also have a very large impact on weld strength)which if sectioned should penetrate both weldments evenly the third is to burn the tubes together homogenously which i believe is what cannondale and trek did lets go back to when making an aluminium welded frame was in its early stages and this was probably percieved as the best method of joining two tubes together and from what i recall gary klein did a lot of tests at a well known US university to confirm this and on paper it makes sense if the weld has complete penetration then there is no edge or weld stress riser like the first method to crack along sure the weld puts more heat in and could damage the tube but remember the filler rod is never the same material as the base metal so if you are welding 6061 t6 you dont use 6061 t6 as afiller you use a mor ductile grade of aluminium so the weld is not as hard when the frame s treated back to temper the weld zone is still slightly softer but roughly as strong sanding the weld will weaken it if material is removed from the edge of the weld as it will be thinned locally thats probably why minimal sanding is done as far as this goes on paper crack and fail (cannondale)shouldnt and klein did his homework and came up with a clean neat way of sticking aluminium together nearly 14 or 15 years ago even though he probablyborrowed it just a point of note all the methods above are adequate to join bike but im still a fan of the old way kleins just look sweet


 *
"welding 101 a quick but not exhaustive guide to welding"*

That may have not been exhaustive, but it was exhausting. Try something for me... it's a little thing I like to call punctuation.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Then there was also a Project Superlight bike that was a Klein frame built up by the owner of St Henri's shop that weighed about 19 lbs. It had a Yeti fork and Bullseye cranks and some other cool stuff. If I come across that again I'll post it on here. I think it might have been in a Bicycle Guide but not sure.


Yes! Those bikes Jed put together were hot! He used a Huret Jubilee derailleur too. Radial laced front wheel. Radial left side rear and 2X right. They filed and smoothed out the welds on the frames to save some weight. The frames he used were also raw with no paint for further weight savings.

Come to think of it, an '80's St. Henri Klein could be a really cool, unique retro project. Damn you guys for getting me thinking of this!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Shayne said:


> Internal cable routing was not a Klein innovation...several road bikes had been using that idea for decades...Colnago nad Vitus to name 2. My Vitus MTB frame had internal routing as well.
> 
> As for the smooth welds...they are smooth because they're finished that way. A lot of maunfacturers do that.
> 
> These are not Klein unique features that continue to set Kleins apart from other bikes.


geometry.. klein geometry is quite unique.. and genesis has the same short rear, long fronte center. although kleins handle much different. 
short rear, tall BB, slightly longer top tubes, shallow seat and head angles, short wheelbase.. coupled with a tight feeling, crisp hadling, fat and stiff aluminum .. you have a monster technical woods bike. 
fat seatposts.. now they are everywhere. didn't klein come first w/ those?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

colker1 said:


> ...fat seatposts.. now they are everywhere. didn't klein come first w/ those?


Charlie Cunningham was the first I know of to use "oversize" seatposts (and sloping top tubes).


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## Lloyd395 (Dec 14, 2004)

I had a gary fisher procaliber a couple of years ago... what a pile. I firmly believe that trek paints one frame style three different color schemes for klein, trek, and fisher, and what an awful paintjob at that, the joints left exposed or lightly sprayed so you can see the aluminum underneith. Trek also uses a lower grade aluminum than gary klein ever did, I believe it was aircraft grade that Gary used. You probably know Gary is an MIT grad specializing in metal properties, I doubt anyone at trek is half qualified. Original kleins were heat treated and then put into a freezer and stored there. The cooling process re-alligned the grain direction of the aluminum further making it stronger. I would be shocked if trek spent the time and resources to do this to their frames. I think the jobs of Gary Klein and Gary Fisher are about the same they are marketing tools to further highlight the so called quality of treks products. I really feel bad for klein and bontreger having their creations destroyed just for name recognition. FSP feel free to correct any errors and add anything, considering where you worked.


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Charlie Cunningham was the first I know of to use "oversize" seatposts (and sloping top tubes).


Yes indeed. There are a few similarities between Charlie's bikes and early Kleins, no rap against Gary, he knew smart design when he saw it.

I often toy with the idea of building up a "poor man's Cunningham" based on an older Klein frame and a Type II fork of course.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

As you mentioned Bontrager. I did send an email to Bontrager some years ago where I honestly told him he was a big sell out, replacing fine handmade frames with taiwanese Bontrager labeled ALU handlebars and stems that look like any noname **** that came out in 92-93.

I did get a reply but it only said "Gee that was some positive comments".


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## erol/frost (Jan 3, 2004)

"A big sellout".... 

Big words. As someone up here wrote he wanted a consistent paycheck in order to supply for his family. That is worthy of respect instead of getting online vitriol from someone who never has had an Bontrager and never will.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

difficult argument. no question I associate more with the pre Trek period klein. No-ones mentioned the paint? older klein paint schemes are cool  I had a friends green/ white/ pink attitude in my living room for nearly a week recently, lovely little bike 
Better bikes? the newer period kleins, purely as they dont suffer from the mulitple cracks the older models are unfortunately famous for.

Maybe people have forgotton that Trek saved Klein from near bankruptcy? Even now its highly unlikely Klein will be imported into the UK for 06 due to lack of sales.

"(It's worth noting that Yeti's is back on the right track of "soulful bikes" since the original employees repurchased the company)" maybe, but the 06 yeti ARCs now made in Taiwan, as is the back end of the ASR etc. (I've owned & loved both)

In summary I can state my 0.02 very easily. for me, older rigs are better lookers, newer rigs I'd prefer to ride


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## donk (Jan 28, 2004)

On the cannondale vs klein thing, I seem to remember reading an article years ago that they actually fought it out in court about welding techniques used. Seem to remember that Durham (from Bullseye) commented that he had made a relative (daughter I think) an AL bike in a similar manner, so there was no real innovation and therefore no real argument about the exclusivity of this joining technique.

I put today's Brodies in the same vein as Kleins , it is just another bike company marketing a frame and not a real person building something they have a vision for.


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

- I heard a little rumor that Klein was/is in the process of buying back the Co. from Trek.....


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## noslogan (Jan 21, 2004)

*Hmm?*

Very interesting.
I'll ask someone about that.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

donk said:


> On the cannondale vs klein thing, I seem to remember reading an article years ago that they actually fought it out in court about welding techniques used. Seem to remember that Durham (from Bullseye) commented that he had made a relative (daughter I think) an AL bike in a similar manner, so there was no real innovation and therefore no real argument about the exclusivity of this joining technique.


Klein had a patent on the use of large diameter aluminum tubing for bicycle frames. Not sure if it had anything to do with the way the tubes were joined.


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## vdubbusrider (Jul 28, 2004)

WTB-rider said:


> Yes indeed. There are a few similarities between Charlie's bikes and early Kleins, no rap against Gary, he knew smart design when he saw it.
> 
> I often toy with the idea of building up a "poor man's Cunningham" based on an older Klein frame and a Type II fork of course.


you mean like this Kleiningham i just got last weekend? with a type II fork i think it might actually fool people from a distance.


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## kuna (Feb 25, 2005)

scant said:


> difficult argument. no question I associate more with the pre Trek period klein. No-ones mentioned the paint? older klein paint schemes are cool  I had a friends green/ white/ pink attitude in my living room for nearly a week recently, lovely little bike
> Better bikes? the newer period kleins, purely as they dont suffer from the mulitple cracks the older models are unfortunately famous for.
> 
> Maybe people have forgotton that Trek saved Klein from near bankruptcy? Even now its highly unlikely Klein will be imported into the UK for 06 due to lack of sales.
> ...


Yep you nailed it on the head here, old bikes are cool to look at, but ride like crap. Just like old cars. It is fun to reflect on days past...Klein had some pretty wild paint jobs and colors, however that isn't what is in style now days. That's why you don't see people in neon colored ski clothes with a mullet crusing the slopes with 200+ sized ski's that are straight as a board.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

kuna said:


> Yep you nailed it on the head here, old bikes are cool to look at, but ride like crap...


Not all of them and it depends on the type of riding you are doing. There are many old bikes I would use as an everyday trail bike - at least in the summer (love my disc brakes).


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

^
You don't have more Pics of that vintage Race, do you?
I'd love to have them, I see a Klein Top Gun and a Horizon Attitude in the back!
If you have some or those bigger, shoot me a PM please!


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

DMFT said:


> - I heard a little rumor that Klein was/is in the process of buying back the Co. from Trek.....


The only thing I heard and that for sure, is that Klein will go back to basics.
In what way or how, is not determined yet.


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## vdubbusrider (Jul 28, 2004)

hey Chris, here is the post-event thread from last year: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=85795&highlight=keyesville+afterglow

pretty much all the photos are on that. this next year will be waaaay better. i'll be posting the official information sometime in January.


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## yellowbook (Aug 21, 2005)

vdubbusrider said:


> hey Chris, here is the post-event thread from last year: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=85795&highlight=keyesville+afterglow
> 
> pretty much all the photos are on that. this next year will be waaaay better. i'll be posting the official information sometime in January.


Thank you very much!!! :--))))


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

"Yep you nailed it on the head here, old bikes are cool to look at, but ride like crap... "

Thats just me personally, I've got to like disk brakes, 100mm travel forks etc. Kudos to people who still ride older retro rigs, espically if they're fast on them! My mate andrews still riding his 91 kona & 89 fisher CR7 as his newest bikes.


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## CabRider (Dec 22, 2004)

*how about this?*

one of my friends rides a Klein Mantra


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## richieb (Oct 21, 2004)

A lot of those welders moved on because many of them throughout the history of Klein in Chehalis, WA, it was many of Gary Klein shop students who did the frame construction. He was a school metal-working teacher in addition to running the Klein company...there's a surprise that I'm sure many didn't know...



MoonriseRascal said:


> Does anybody know what Gary Klein is up to currently. Does he have anything to do with the bikes bearing his name anymore or did he sell and totally move-on? I know that many of the people associated with making the bikes (welders, painters, etc)continued on after 1996 but what about Gary?


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## OllyW (Jan 5, 2004)

Nice original Attitude on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7214760273&fromMakeTrack=true


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## newsboymerlin (Jan 7, 2005)

has someone a 1991 adroit out there? never saw one...

ashok


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

I had an early adroit (92 maybe?) in alligator linear fade, but unfortunately no pics. It was a beautiful bike with a Ti spindle BB. It had the mission control set-up and rigid fork and weighed 21.5lbs on the hang-scale w/737 pedals. I had several mountain bikes at the time and the Adroit was sold to fund this early Q-Pro pictured below which I purchased as a frame in either 93 or 94. The last 5 digits of the serial number are 94015 and I assume this is the first year 94 and the 15 th frameset.










I sold the Q-Pro to a buddy of mine and then he recently sold it back to me in almost exactly the same condition. Feels good to have it back, and having owned later model conventional BB Q-pros, I personally like this bike better. It feels so light, agile, and precise, with every bit of pedal force pushing you forward with no discernible flex. Obviously not for long rides, but excellent for fast rides under 40-50 miles. It weighed in at a little over 18lbs with speedplays back when it was originally built.

I still have the original sunset colored stem that Klein recalled when the bike was new.
I am currently building an Adept Pro and also have a like new 2001 adroit race frameset, both built in Chehalis, and both painted in the cool looking Plum Crazy paint job.

JR


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## quadrillion (Jul 9, 2011)

youtube.com/watch?v=l7DdI70Ov8Y&feature=relmfu


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Noooooooo! Zombie thread!


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

quadrillion said:


> youtube.com/watch?v=l7DdI70Ov8Y&feature=relmfu


Cool video! Man, I can't believe I was 16 when I started this thread... Marcus Storck, what an inspiring guy!


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## jeepfreak (May 28, 2011)

I worked at Trek from 1990-2000 ,after Trek purchased Klein , I spent one week at the Washington plant . I observed the great care the Klein employees took in building & painting there frames. There quality control was outstanding ! they had three people examaning each frame for imperfections. the factory looked like an old barn but they made the best frames ive ever seen.After that trip I only bought Kleins. I felt there rear triangle actually pushed you up the hills on there mt. bikes.So I think if it was'nt made in Chahalis it wasn't a true Klein.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jeepfreak said:


> There quality control was outstanding ! they had three people examaning each frame for imperfections.


Oh really?










The back story on this bike is out there on another thread, do some searching, but this is clearly a case where they must have been snoozing. Faulty weld and a noticeable blotch on the head tube. That said, I still ride a 96 Klein as my daily bike.


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## jeepfreak (May 28, 2011)

nobody is perfect ! I had 4 kleins and no problem, i stick to what i said about there quality. you still ride one so they cant be all that bad


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

pinguwin said:


> Oh really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


glue it back and.. Ebay!


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## longfinkillie (Jan 28, 2011)

Every time I see that pic, I shed a small tear. There's also someone on the 'nets that killed a MC1 on his Fervor. Beyond those instances, they seem to be pretty tough little rides.


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## Jatosan (Mar 9, 2011)

Is it true that Gary Klein now makes telescope parts?


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## H_Tuttle (Feb 27, 2007)

Gary Fisher: We had the parting of the ways with LeMond and immediately after that there was talk of working with Klein within the building during the spring of 2008. I remember talking asking how do you do Klein? How do you promote it? I had my ideas on how to promote Klein. Quite honestly I don't think we did as good of a job as we could have with Klein, as a company. There are marks of Klein on all of our bikes - like that tapered steerer column, that was Gary Klein - he is a genius. He is building telescopes now so he didn't want to revive the Klein brand. We asked a lot of our dealers about what we should do and many of them said, "do Fisher road bikes." From a marketing standpoint, somebody who rides a Fisher mountain bike will be much more likely to buy a Fisher road bike than any other brand.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009...ersation-with-the-mountain-bike-pioneer_96786


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## henrymiller1 (Apr 25, 2008)

I know nothing of Klein road bikes. My opinions are based on my experience with the 5 kleins i currently own. No museum bikes. Just riders and a few frames that are just waiting. Pre trek frames are really beautiful. Internal cables are a pain, but look great. The welds are polished, sanded and grinded, what ever. It was important to Klein to do it. Those things weren't important to Trek, they are still light aluminum bikes, but the magic isn't there.


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