# Let's just own that Class 1 eBikes are more than twice as fast as pedal bikes



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.

I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.

Yesterday I finally had the chance to take a Specialized Levo on a lap of a section of trail I have ridden dozens of times over the years on my pedal bike. 
This is something I have wanted to do for a number of years now, and finally had the opportunity.

I did the loop first on my pedal bike. I was riding average speeds, not trying to break any records and was very winded and breathing heavily when I got back to the top of the climb. I might have been able to push myself a little bit harder, but that would not have changed the results much.

After a small break I took the Levo on the same loop. 

The results are in, Class 1 Pedelec Bikes are super fast, more than twice as fast when climbing.

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

Here is the strava data to back my statements up:

Full Loop:








So just over twice as fast for the full loop, this loop starts and ends at a high point, so the decent is roughly equal the climb in elevation. The decent is single track, the climb is a combo of single track and double track, but mostly double track.

Downhill only:








I was not expecting any difference here, there is no reason the eBike should be faster on a decent that requires almost no pedaling.

There is no segment for the entire climb from the bottom to the top. I can probably create one if anyone cares to see that section. But if we just do some quick math;
Pedal Bike 11:06 total minus 1:55 for the down makes the entire climb 9:11
eBike 5:15 total minus 1:58 for the down makes the entire climb 3:17
So total Climb speed is 3x faster.

Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)








Right about double the speed for this segment of the climb

Climb - Short Section Segment








This segment is double track, wide open with a few sweeping turns. It was at this point I realized I could up-shift the bike into a harder gear to go even faster with that motor doing all the work for me. 13mph vs 3.5mph - That is 4xfaster then when I pedal.

To show I was not sand bagging it, here are my averages on that section from last year:









I am very much an average climber, a bit overweight and all my strava times uphill are very middle of the leaderboards for all my climbs.


Again, I am not making a claim this is bad or good, I think that is a question for each and every land manager to decide for the trails they manage.


What I am asking is to stop trying to hide the fact that eBikes can hit speeds of 14mph on a climb and faster if one is really pushing it to the 20mph cut off.

Anyone wanna setup a go-fund me account? I think I need one.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I'll make the popcorn.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

What tire lube is the best?


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Proof is in the numbers. Some people will still be in denial


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

The truth will set you free


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

How long was the climb, and how steep was it? And was it tight, or pretty open? I assume this was in turbo mode? Or... whatever they call "full power output" mode?

I read this as "this is what I was expecting", in the sense of the capabilities and outputs of your average class 1 ebike, and average rider (ie, most people don't climb at their FTP, and a large percentage of people likely have an FTP is probably within 75w of 250w). I see it as a variation of "self shuttling" for the most part.

As you say, not all places will allow that sort of speed differential (ie, trail is too tight to go that fast). And in some areas this might not be a problem, while it could be in others. I can see it working just fine in the "winch and plummet" style trail systems, where access up is largely on fireroads or doubletrack, and you have plenty of room to pass. Singletrack climbs might be more problematic with conflict with hikers/bikers though.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> How long was the climb, and how steep was it? And was it tight, or pretty open? I assume this was in turbo mode? Or... whatever they call "full power output" mode?


Here is the ride if you want to take a look, The "long segment" i posted is tight single track, the short segment is open double track. Most of the climb is open double track.


https://www.strava.com/activities/6546305491/embed/7f0daec38a9f1d48f1bb1ad4dff9f1d1df3cd51f


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Matches my ebikes climbing speed. I'm 3x as fast up and only slightly faster down. DH super sticky tires help. I can do 3-4x the drops in the same time. It's amazing and my DH/jumping skills have had a massive boost with all the extra laps I can get in. I'm the quickest I've ever been and the ebike was the key.

Our trails are straight up fireroads with fall line single-track.

I still ride a road bike for fitness and to balance out my training when it's to wet to ride dirt.
Edit
On eco mode I am only 1.5x faster but can do 6.5k of climbing and 11 drops in about 2 hours


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

No surprise here, except the actual differences in climb speed are even greater than I expected. But when Tony Tubalinksi cooks past me on the uphills with his pasty breadbasket poking out from under his shirt, it is immediately obvious that it isn't a matter of fitness. Curious to see the responses, my experience is that there is a pretty good contingent of attack dogs in this forum. If it were me, I'd just shrug and say 'Thats the way I like to do it, its fun and sucks less". Popcorn in hand...


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Your move ebikers


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Yep, ebikes can climb super fast. I love that aspect along with it taking pressure off my knees and back while climbing. However I've noticed that my average lap times are still similar to my old bikes. It's mostly because I ride at the same pace regardless what bike it actually is. Over the last couple weeks, I have only earned 2 gold medals for beating my previous times and that's about it. 

These days I'm just happy to be outside pedaling and don't care about my overall speed. On my Levo I typically stick with level 1 or 2 for pedal assist.


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## JCKID58 (Nov 20, 2017)

BadgerOne said:


> No surprise here, except the actual differences in climb speed are even greater than I expected. But when Tony Tubalinksi cooks past me on the uphills with his pasty breadbasket poking out from under his shirt, it is immediately obvious that it isn't a matter of fitness. Curious to see the responses, my experience is that there is a pretty good contingent of attack dogs in this forum. If it were me, I'd just shrug and say 'Thats the way I like to do it, its fun and sucks less". Popcorn in hand...


We just had our first Tony experience a few weeks back. Had a fairly steep and long road climb to get to the trail. We weren't exactly pushing to get to the top but Tony came whirring by us like we were walking. My son was like what the HECK!! He was out of sight when we got to the trail but we caught him pretty fast once in the woods. He looked back and tried to get away from us and quickly ran off the trail and hit a tree. So bike skills still count for something, sometimes. A good and fit rider on an E bike will walk away from about anyone though. We see a couple of brothers in their 70's on e-bikes out in our usual trails quite often. Great guys and both have said they would have had to quit riding without the e bikes so I'm happy they are able to still ride. If it comes down to not being able to ride there will be one in my garage. Not just yet though.


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

Derestrict that bike!

Search results for: 'Specialized Turbo Levo'


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Wait a bike with an electric motor is faster up a hill than with out a motor







....


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks for sharing a clear example. It seems obvious that an eBike can way (3x in this example) faster, but is often disputed on this forum and elsewhere.


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## Jlar (May 29, 2006)

The only problem with ebikes, is riding with people on ebikes. Try pedaling a class 1 climb with joe schmoe couch potato talking your ear off beside you while you're gasping for air....


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Who in their right mind ever said they're not at least 2x as fast uphill? Mine adds about 200 watts in Turbo IIRC, which is about double what I can put out for a long period, and it's only a 65nm Orbea Rise with a de-tuned motor. Where people have a problem is when some say they're too fast for the trails and will ruin them and endanger everyone. Is climbing at 12mph vs 4 or 5 or whatever really a safety issue? As you showed, going downhill, where a faster bike might be an issue or dangerous, the speeds are the same. And on flatter singletrack, THIS is where you will go a bit faster but not enough to be dangerous except in the wrong hands, like any other bike. 

Again, what is so bad about going 2-3 times faster uphill? I can guarantee you there are some fast locals (maybe pros) that can ride uphill 2-3 times as fast as you, are they dangerous? I just don't get the whole list of your post...


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

For me, the difference is about 3-4mph moving average for my ebike rides vs real bike rides. Typically, I average 6-7mph on my pedal bikes and I average about 10-10.5mph on my ebike. In isolation, and on certain climbs, ebikes can certainly blast up the trail at 3x the pace that I otherwise could on a pedal bike... but on the whole, I do not ride 3x the speed on my ebike that I do on my mtb's. I'm obviously faster going downhill on my mtb then my e-mtb generally. Certainly, there is no difference in downhill speed to note between the two, with the ebike being slower on extremely technical terrain.

Another few things that cross my mind as I think about this topic:
1) for me it's rather pointless to climb technical climbs in boost on an ebike. I have more control of the bike, and climb just as fast if I do the climb on trail. The bike is easier to get along with, and far easier to ride the features properly on a lower power level.
2) when you first start riding ebikes, you tend to be wow'd by the speed, which means you ride the bike in boost more often, and you tend to ride the bike 2-3 gears down from where you normally would to facilitate the additional power and speed. When I first started riding ebikes, I never used my granny gear. Now that I've gotten used to them, my average and even isolated section pace has reduced, because I'm back to riding the bike largely the way I normally would and in the same gears I normally would.
3) I think we're going to look back on this first generation of absolute max power, and no consideration to bike weight and wonder what we were thinking. These bikes aren't fun to be ridden like bikes, which causes people to do things they wouldn't normally do on a mtb. Like power up an easy climb at 18mph with no resistance in their legs. I think bikes like teh orbea rise and specialized levo SL, are what the majority of ebikes will be before too long, that will help normalize the ebike speed/power.
4) No matter what, I still haven't seen legal class 1 ebikes, that will truly out pace the strongest of riders on real terrain (fire roads don't count). I know plenty of hammer heads that easily climb on an XC race rig at the speed ebikes do. Matter of fact, I've been surprised that even with an ebike, I am not guaranteed to beat my PRs from my fittest riding days 10 years ago. Granted, I'm right on top of them without hammering on the ebike, but if anything, I'm more surprised by how fast I used to be without an ebike, then how fast I am now on an ebike.
5) A lot of this, is really terrain based. My local riding has climbs that are steeper then 10% grade, many times 18 - 25%. On those climbs, ebikes are not significantly faster at all. It's only the moderate, 250/mi climbs where an ebike can really open it's leg and push the pace north of 10-12-15mph. I imagine the pace delta being a significant issue in places with less elevation overall. A meandering climb or undulating terrain is where this is likely to show up the most.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

BmanInTheD said:


> Is climbing at 12mph vs 4 or 5 or whatever really a safety issue? As you showed, going downhill, where a faster bike might be an issue or dangerous, the speeds are the same. And on flatter singletrack, THIS is where you will go a bit faster but not enough to be dangerous except in the wrong hands, like any other bike.
> 
> Again, what is so bad about going 2-3 times faster uphill? I can guarantee you there are some fast locals (maybe pros) that can ride uphill 2-3 times as fast as you, are they dangerous? I just don't get the whole list of your post...


Anecdotally, my local trail system is pretty contested in terms of mountain biker access (with user groups that are actively trying to remove bikers, getting editorials in the local newspaper, etc). And at the local meeting with the parks dept, the speed differential when climbing was called out as a concern for hikers, specifically for ebikes (ebikes are illegal here). Mountain bikers are faster than hikers on the climbs as well, but not as dramatically fast (most climb ~3-6mph-ish). But the ebikes are 2-3x that, and apparently they don't like getting passed at those speeds.

Given, its a highly local thing to me, but, I can at least confirm that its a "thing".

Given, ebikers don't have to ride at max power, or max personal effort either. So just because they can do 10-15mph uphill, doesn't mean they will. But it is feasible.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

ocnLogan said:


> Anecdotally, my local trail system is pretty contested in terms of mountain biker access (with user groups that are actively trying to remove bikers, getting editorials in the local newspaper, etc). And at the local meeting with the parks dept, the speed differential when climbing was called out as a concern for hikers, specifically for ebikes (ebikes are illegal here). Mountain bikers are faster than hikers on the climbs as well, but not as dramatically fast (most climb ~3-6mph-ish). But the ebikes are 2-3x that, and apparently they don't like getting passed at those speeds.
> 
> Given, its a highly local thing to me, but, I can at least confirm that its a "thing".
> 
> Given, ebikers don't have to ride at max power, or max personal effort either. So just because they can do 10-15mph uphill, doesn't mean they will. But it is feasible.


Don't these hikers have to come back down, where bikers (on regular bikes) will be approaching/passing them at speeds MUCH higher than an e-bike can climb? Sorry, not buying that argument, unless there are specific DH trails where hikers are not allowed. And again, really fast riders are gonna be climbing at close to those speeds, are they just gonna outlaw really fast riders as well?


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

BmanInTheD said:


> Don't these hikers have to come back down, where bikers (on regular bikes) will be approaching/passing them at speeds MUCH higher than an e-bike can climb? Sorry, not buying that argument, unless there are specific DH trails where hikers are not allowed. And again, really fast riders are gonna be climbing at close to those speeds, are they just gonna outlaw really fast riders as well?


I mean, you can decide weather or not you want to "buy it". I'm just saying that's what people said at the local meeting with the parks and rec board when arguing for the removal of bikers from the park.

For what its worth, most of the trails at my local trail system primarily has bike specific, one way downhill trails. So hikers only really encounter into mountain bikers on the climbs, and traversals.

If it helps at all (at least they're consistent?), they also complain about bikers riding down the fireroads (why anyone would ever burn hard earned elevation on a fire road descent is beyond me) for the same thing. And, I mean, I understand that people trying to get bikers kicked out, will grasp at straws, calling out a bunch of things that might not be a huge deal to tons of people.

Personally I'm not really for/against them, other than how they impact other access. If they're legal, I've got no issues. I don't care if someone passes me when they have a motor. Its not like we're doing the same sport, so I'm not offended when they are clearly faster.

And, if I was to be interested in a ebike in the future, the ones like the Orbea Rise Hydro or whatever (their lightweight, lower powered, alloy version) seems like the kind I'd be most interested in. I assume the next few years will bring rapid improvement, maybe lower weight, and price. So maybe I'll re-evaluate then.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.

An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.
> 
> An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.


One solution could be for the pendulum to swing back towards building trails that are actually challenging rather than more brown sidewalks.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

On a normal ebike like a levo it's impossible for even the fittest ride to keep up. Even on eco you have to kill yourself just to keep pace. I have several of the KOMs and tried riding my XC bike with friends on ebikes, it was not worth it.

Ebikes will not climb a 10% grade at 18 mph, even if you are on boost and putting out 400+ watts. 10-12 is more like it.

Noobs that have no clue will always suck regardless of the bike they are on.

Edit 
It takes at least 700 watts to climb 10% at 12mph according to a wattage calculator.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> One solution could be for the pendulum to swing back towards building trails that are actually challenging rather than more brown sidewalks.


I definitely see more ebikes on the smoother, wider trails. Which I don’t ride a lot, but do use them to connect more fun trails.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> One solution could be for the pendulum to swing back towards building trails that are actually challenging rather than more brown sidewalks.


You’re cancelled. Not all-inclusive enough


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I definitely see more ebikes on the smoother, wider trails. Which I don’t ride a lot, but do use them to connect more fun trails.


All trails are fun, you just have to be doing non stop manuals, bunny hops weaving thru ebikes


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## Jack Watts (Jul 29, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.


I rarely run into "trail issues", but the trails were oddly crowded last weekend, and I was almost taken out twice--but two every inexperienced riders who clearly didn't understand anything about trail etiquette. They were both on inexpensive analog bikes. Should I make a thread about them and how their bikes are dangerous? I mean, I have a problem with people doing stupid things, regardless of bike type. 

Honestly, the e-bike fear seems based more on "what could happen" vs. "what actually happens". A perfect example of this is when some very fast XC chick and I almost ran into each other headfirst on a two way trail. It was a blind valley--for both of us. We were both going too fast for that section of trail (though the trail did seem pretty empty at the time). "Hey, sorry 'bout that" we both said.. Then, the next thing out of her mouth: "did you see that chick on the e-bike? WTF is she doing out here!". It was a very scared late teen who was actually walking her bike over some mild roots (when I passed her). Clearly, both of us were a much bigger trail menace. Yet, ebikes...

And no, generally I don't ride like an idiot, but I'm plenty capable of it on my analog bike. And the truth is, I've done some rides with some folks on e-bikes who otherwise would not have been able to keep up on the climbs, and it was much more pleasant than waiting forever for them. It can be a great equalizer if you have folks of varying ability on a ride. 

As far as "twice as fast", I guess it depends how fast you are, but I'm sure I'd be faster with a motor. Most people would be. I'm sure that's groundbreaking news? That said, I have never had a single bad experience with an ebike on a climb (or descent, for that matter). It's generally Strava hunters on analog bikes who present the biggest danger.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Sir kayakalot said:


> All trails are fun, you just have to be doing non stop manuals, bunny hops weaving thru ebikes


Grow up.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> One solution could be for the pendulum to swing back towards building trails that are actually challenging rather than more brown sidewalks.


Completely agreed that building berms on every corner, and building nothing but flow trails, likely poses a bigger risk to trail access and frustration over speed delta's between user groups then ebikes do.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh no you gonna steal all the KOM's!!😭


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

alexbn921 said:


> On a normal ebike like a levo it's impossible for even the fittest ride to keep up. Even on eco you have to kill yourself just to keep pace. I have several of the KOMs and tried riding my XC bike with friends on ebikes, it was not worth it.
> 
> Ebikes will not climb a 10% grade at 18 mph, even if you are on boost and putting out 400+ watts. 10-12 is more like it.
> 
> ...


I'm relatively ebike un-educated. But won't most class 1 ebikes do 250w average, with temporary max power being 550ish watts? The question then becomes how long can it do that higher than average power.

But as you said, I do think there is a fair bit of hyperbole thrown around. Ie, the whole "they passed me on a 20% climb, going like 20mph" is probably unrealistic unless the rider was Nino or someone like that. But as you said, 10-15mph seems pretty doable on an average climb for an average rider if they're using a boost mode.

And, as others have said, a lot of it is etiquette. I don't think that an experienced rider who waits to pass people in ways that make sense would bother anyone out on the trail.

This post mostly is about the fact that the machine is capable. And because it is capable, some people use it, and that "could" be an issue.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

If you pause for a moment, you can almost feel the eBike goal posts being moved. I'd like to speak to the manager about the last six years of forum posts "muh ebike is no faster than muh analog flintstone bike. Why U mad?". Apparently, the access issue is....berms.

Got it.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

Carl Mega said:


> If you pause for a moment, you can almost feel the eBike goal posts being moved. I'd like to speak to the manager about the last six years of forum posts "muh ebike is no faster than muh analog flintstone bike. Why U mad?". Apparently, the access issue is....berms.
> 
> Got it.


The access issue is spooking other trail users. That comes from un-educated regular bikers, trail speeds creeping up due to bike tech and modern trail building, ebikers, un-educated ebikers, strava a-holes and a handful of other issues. Your join date suggests that you remember the original pitch to get mtb's access in the first place and that ebikes directly double back on the sales pitch that was made then. Unfortunately, the conditions of the deal were never maintainable because it was a promise being made about a future that was out of everyone's control. 

so yes, the goal posts move as the problem develops and the scope is understood, and impacted by further inside and outside influence. These are indeed, the facts of life. The reality is, that we're all in the same fishbowl now, whether you hate e bikes or you don't. Our fate is likely tied together, and there is not a solution that works long term where real bikes, get to continue trail access, and ebikes are banned. As the ebike technology progresses, the lines are blurred, and the situation is impossible to police. That likely means we all lose. 

Everyone likely has one or two things that contribute to this problem in mind, and one or two things that might help fix it. What absolutely won't help fix it, is assuming that building a wall between mtb's and emtb's is the only path forward. I think threads like this, while annoying and echo-chambery at times... help us all understand the scope of where the goal posts are with what we know today. 

In the end, the access issues are the same for us all, even if we are lone wolf types that largely don't get along. We still get lumped into the same fish bowl and pawed at by the cats that sit and watch us peck at each other.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

sergio_pt said:


> Oh no you gonna steal all the KOM's!!😭


There is a local fast guy that goes out and grabs KOMs on his regular bike then posts the ride title " recovery ride on the e-bike" Throws people into fits.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users.
> 
> A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be.


And these are the guys set the example for land managers and those who provide trail access. It's no wonder there's a problem here.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> The reality is, that we're all in the same fishbowl now, whether you hate e bikes or you don't. Our fate is likely tied together, and there is not a solution that works long term where real bikes, get to continue trail access, and ebikes are banned. As the ebike technology progresses, the lines are blurred, and the situation is impossible to police. That likely means we all lose.


I could be that, eBikes are motorized and my interests and loyalties here lie with human power activities. Thus this entirely predictable scenario you describe - where my access is now intractably intertwined with eBike whimsical behaviors...might..might.. conjure up some resentment? I mean, even as we challenged the eBike advocate's disingenuous talking points of "eBikes are not materially different than human powered" and "samsies" or "it's you, just amplified!"...were just met with more lies and BS. I'm not going to forget that.

So now, we finally get to - begrudgingly - that eBikes (suprise!) go fast. It's just "sit back and accept your fate". How about...nah? I'll stick to the facts and an objective appreciation of both the positives / negatives of the eBike inclusion without ever supporting dishonest nonsense that so many love to embrace. ]

But hey... berms...they are bad.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

Carl Mega said:


> I could be that, eBikes are motorized and my interests and loyalties here lie with human power activities. Thus this entirely predictable scenario you describe - where my access is now intractably intertwined with eBike whimsical behaviors...might..might.. conjure up some resentment? I mean, even as we challenged the eBike advocate's disingenuous talking points of "eBikes are not materially different than human powered" and "samsies" or "it's you, just amplified!"...were just met with more lies and BS. I'm not going to forget that.
> 
> So now, we finally get to - begrudgingly - that eBikes (suprise!) go fast. It's just "sit back and accept your fate". How about...nah? I'll stick to the facts and an objective appreciation of both the positives / negatives of the eBike inclusion without ever supporting dishonest nonsense that so many love to embrace. ]
> 
> But hey... berms...they are bad.


I do really like the idea that ebikes are the big bad wolf here... it would definitely simplify the argument. However, I think the same ratio of assholes are out there with no consideration of other users now that ebikes are in the mix, then there were before. I see just as many mtb riders buzzing hikers on descents and flatish fire roads at questionable speeds as any other type of mountain biker, electric assisted or not. Some of the most dangerous instances I've seen as a 25 year+ trail user came long before ebikes were even in existence. For me, the truth is that buzzing people with a speed differential of over 10mph, is startling. I can admit, that ebikes do create a situation where even a complete noob, that's never ridden a bike before, can jump on an emtb and do 15mph plus down a fire road. But I honestly don't think that ebikes, all of a sudden, made a sustainable problem, unsustainable. We were at a tipping point for trail access in many areas, and the explosion of the sport in 2020 hastened that, on top of the fuel that was building with the new motorized user base that is searching for access.

I guess I just disagree with the notion that the majority of the voices in this fight are spreading dishonest nonsense. There has always been a speed differential problem between the mountain cyclist user groups and others. It got noticeably worse when strava became a thing, it again, got worse when youtube became a thing, and it again, got worse when the user base exploaded, and it again, got worse when ebikes got added. I'll admit, I'm not a huge fan of the impact all of these things have had on the sport, maybe I'm old, but I miss what it was for the brief period before all of these things mixed up together. I just don't think that ebikes, were the thing that was worse then all of the other contributors and had a disproportionally dishonest sales pitch.

The sales pitches for machine built trails are no less/more obtrusive on the nature of the sport, strava being same-same. etc etc. For better or worse, the sport progresses beyond the core values that some of us got into it for. I view that as a reality that I don't have much choice but to live with.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.
> 
> An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.


In fairness, poor trail etiquette frequently spans every demographic of trail users anywhere. People just generally suck. But you're on point about the noob on ebike. Frankly other cyclists ebike or not suck at trail etiquette as least as much as everyone else, and usually more. For every 10 friendly greetings i give, I get maybe 2 or 3 back, and for every 10 observances of trail etiquette I give, I'll be lucky to get one back. The worst offenders? Cyclists. Most are dix, and it pains me to say that, but it's true. The only cyclists that care about etiquette these days tend to be the older guys, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't been so fed up on some rides that I considered consciously just abandoning etiquette myself because it makes no difference if only one guy is doing it.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I have a good friend who lost a leg a couple of years ago. Obviously E-bikes are amazing for him. What is stunning is just how fast he is on his.

I have a Levo SL, and he has a standard Levo. Going up a long switch back climb with my bike on turbo I was all in to try and keep up with him. And I am a fairly good climber.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

ocnLogan said:


> I'm relatively ebike un-educated. But won't most class 1 ebikes do 250w average, with temporary max power being 550ish watts? The question then becomes how long can it do that higher than average power.
> 
> But as you said, I do think there is a fair bit of hyperbole thrown around. Ie, the whole "they passed me on a 20% climb, going like 20mph" is probably unrealistic unless the rider was Nino or someone like that. But as you said, 10-15mph seems pretty doable on an average climb for an average rider if they're using a boost mode.
> 
> ...


Brose motors put out 540 watts continuously with a current limit of 15 amps and a nominal voltage of 38v. If a ride puts out 160watts in boost it will max out and the total out will be 700 watts for 1 hour as the 500 battery is 15 amp hours. No human on Earth can go above 450ish for an hour. 

SL motors are just over 200 watts continuous.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> We were at a tipping point for trail access in many areas, and the explosion of the sport in 2020 hastened that, on top of the fuel that was building with the new motorized user base that is searching for access.


You wrote a lot and we share some observations and opinion. I'm only going to lean into this^ because it is the setting we are faced with. I advocate for all sorts of motorized access and see potential for eMoto / eBike trails being available where ICE motors would be denied. There are many opportunities. But what I reject is a blanket position that says "eBikes are human power equivalent" and thus are afforded unrestricted access to same trails. Convenient for eBike enthusiasts? Sure, short term. In the interests of the broader mixed user groups? No. Workable policy for many US land managers? Not really. 

So, instead trying to short cut it, I prefer to take stock of the realities of the situation. Some areas are under pressure, congestion, conflict and have tenuous grip on access as it is. Does it serve us to haphazardly introduce even faster machines that aid new, fresh users to reach rarified Olympian speeds? That's a hard to make argument. With that, for me, it's simple. Many, if not most, trails are suitable for eBike access - but not all. Thus discretion. Opt-in. So yeah, petition for access in good faith. There's plenty of appetite, there are plenty of existing trails which are perfectly viable. Work the process and expect to be treated like every other user groups because all of them had to do the same thing - build credibility and relationships.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BadgerOne said:


> In fairness, poor trail etiquette frequently spans every demographic of trail users anywhere. People just generally suck. But you're on point about the noob on ebike. Frankly other cyclists ebike or not suck at trail etiquette as least as much as everyone else, and usually more. For every 10 friendly greetings i give, I get maybe 2 or 3 back, and for every 10 observances of trail etiquette I give, I'll be lucky to get one back. The worst offenders? Cyclists. Most are dix, and it pains me to say that, but it's true. The only cyclists that care about etiquette these days tend to be the older guys, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't been so fed up on some rides that I considered consciously just abandoning etiquette myself because it makes no difference if only one guy is doing it.


I've seen the same thing. I'm also a trail runner so I also see it from that perspective. On the trails I usually run, and sometimes ride, foot traffic has the right of way, unlike on most of the trails I ride where mtb has the right of way. But a lot of riders seem to forget this. I had one incident where I felt like the bike rider was trying to force me off my line, despite me giving him plenty of room to pass, just because he wanted the smoothest line. He finally changed his line at the last second, just as I started to flinch. Had a few other similar incidents where they passed a little closer than they should have because they wanted to stick to a particular line.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> Brose motors put out 540 watts continuously with a current limit of 15 amps and a nominal voltage of 38v. If a ride puts out 160watts in boost it will max out and the total out will be 700 watts for 1 hour as the 500 battery is 15 amp hours. No human on Earth can go above 450ish for an hour.
> 
> SL motors are just over 200 watts continuous.


The problem here is the denominator. If you get a person putting out pretty minimal power and they happen to weigh quite a bit, the bike’s motor won’t put out much power in response AND they’ll have a low W/kg as a result.

Occasionally, if doing my best to take a ride on the Vomit Comet, I’ll catch a person on an e-Bike. Pretty rare but more likely on steeper climbs at higher altitude. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> The problem here is the denominator. If you get a person putting out pretty minimal power and they happen to weigh quite a bit, the bike’s motor won’t put out much power in response AND they’ll have a low W/kg as a result.
> 
> Occasionally, if doing my best to take a ride on the Vomit Comet, I’ll catch a person on an e-Bike. Pretty rare but more likely on steeper climbs at higher altitude.
> 
> ...


Anything over 130watts on a brose in boost will give you 100% motor power. Even fat old guys should be able to do that and in shuttle mode it's even less because it adds in cadence.

Depending on my mode I will run boost for an hour straight and average 250+ watts for 4500 feet. Or stretch it out for 2 hours with lower assistance.

Took over a month to change my effort level. If i'm going fast, I must try super hard. It's weird to be able to separate effort from speed.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Klurejr said:


> Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.
> 
> I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.
> 
> ...


Thank you, e-bikes have their place but people really need to stop the whole fitness aspect. Skill level I will give you because they haven't figured out a e-skill button yet.


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## Muggsly (Nov 9, 2005)

They are only slightly faster than pro mountainbikers are but they are easily 2x as fast as a regular Joe Schmoe. I mean there are tons of youtubes videos with Ebikers vs pros and the pros get decimated why would you not think they are fast. Thankfully by me we have many trails, some are for ebikes and some are not, and I ride them both on a regular bike. 

I will say this and this is just anecdotal the ebikers are more commonly willing to say something rude or something snarky when passing than a regular biker. But that could just be where I am an the bikers that exist here. 

I honestly think ebikers are missing out on a prime service though, I would be willing to throw $5 at one for a tow on my 4th or 5th run up a mountain. So ebikers really should be offering shuttle rides for regular bikers so sad they are not doing this yet.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.
> 
> An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.


I had one of my Nica coaches pushed down and off the trail looking for a place to let some noob ebiker pass. The ebiker proceeded to push a Nica kid off the trail and he got out of the way, the whole time yelling rider thru. My wife saw the whole thing he looked like a muppet riding a bike, no bike control to speak of. I know the argument there are a holes on all types of bikes but these a holes pay a bunch of money and think they are hot crap. It is not me being a snobby elite just a holes were easier to convince they were a holes when they had just pedal bikes.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I definitely see more ebikes on the smoother, wider trails. Which I don’t ride a lot, but do use them to connect more fun trails.


Yeah, anybody thinking their going to ride 10 or 12 MPH on real N.E. singletrack without a shitload of bike handling skill is going to go to the hospital in very short order. LOL!

Probably a big part of the reason we don't see a lot of e-bikes around here.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, anybody thinking their going to ride 10 or 12 MPH on real N.E. singletrack without a shitload of bike handling skill is going to go to the hospital in very short order. LOL!
> 
> Probably a big part of the reason we don't see a lot of e-bikes around here.


What is the elevation like on your local trails? Are you doing about 100 feet of climbing per mile on average? That is about what I average on my rides, Lots of up and downs, so the motor is very attractive.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> What is the elevation like on your local trails? Are you doing about 100 feet of climbing per mile on average? That is about what I average on my rides, Lots of up and downs, so the motor is very attractive.


100'/mile is right on the nose around my area. Short ups-n-downs, lots of rocks, roots, tight squeezes and turns. 
High speed without skill = injuries aplenty. Slow speed without skill = walking aplenty.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.
> 
> I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.
> 
> ...


No one goes for a 5 minute ride. And some Cat 1 racers could easily put up those same times/speeds for some period of time.

Yes, they are faster - physics and all. But having spent many hours on both (most on regular bikes), the real world difference on average (on reasonably technical trails) is about 20-25% or so, which is roughly how much faster most Cat1/Pro riders are than me on human power.

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.


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## itsky (Jul 26, 2011)

RickBullottaPA said:


> [...]
> 
> We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.


Bush league strawman attempt. Must not be an attorney.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

How did you get this:


RickBullottaPA said:


> We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.


From This:


> Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?


I am not calling for the banning of anyone, far from it.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Ban all noobs! 

No new riders should be allowed on the trails. The trails are all mine. .


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> Ban all noobs!
> 
> No new riders should be allowed on the trails. The trails are all mine. .


I love it when eBikers forget they are the ones asking to change long, well established access rules to include their motorized vehicles.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I agree w RBPA about 25% "easier", long extended climbs yeah a little faster but mostly just easier. Pedally flat sections a little faster but mostly just easier and downhills not any diff for me as I'm standing and don't pedal much. Completely depends on which mode your using tho, and who's saying ebikes are not any faster?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> who's saying ebikes are not any faster?


You must be new here.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Bacon Fat said:


> I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.


ok breath for a second, relax. Now reread the post.... New rider on e-bike causes crashes due to thinking he fast. Question, do a holes on regular bike push people off of trail yes, but give that a hole a motor and a level of cockyness to push people off the trail because he is so freaking fast these new riders become problems. I feel the same thing about the new dentist riding a sworks epic being a complete tool to every one who isn't as fast as he is.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Bacon Fat said:


> I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.


You want to ride an e-bike, no skin off my back. Be courteous and know your a representative of your sport. I do the same as a racer. If someone is being a jerk on the trail no matter what they are riding I bark at them just the same.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I've read the arguments that you get as much of a workout, which is not my personal experience except when I do bigger rides, but not that they aren't any faster. Again depends on the mode your using were you using turbo/boost on your test? I don't use it much, too much power for singletrack riding in my experience


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> I've read the arguments that you get as much of a workout, which is not my personal experience except when I do bigger rides, but not that they aren't any faster. Again depends on the mode your using were you using turbo/boost on your test? I don't use it much, too much power for singletrack riding in my experience


The comments "they are the same speed as regular pedal bikes" and "they are no faster than pedal bikes" have been spouted over and over since eBikes first came on the scene and this section of the forum was created. Feel free to dig through some of the threads on this site. I am not making this up.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Like how all ebike riders are new to the sport too. Completely ignorant of all the rules and customs. Don't dig or support trail advocacy.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Hmmm, honestly never read that, been hanging out here the last year since I got my emtb, not doubting you tho. I would disagree that ebikes are TWICE as fast tho, if your hammering around in turbo mode maybe but I doubt most do that. Again, overall probably 25% faster or easier in my experience.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> I love it when eBikers forget they are the ones asking to change long, well established access rules to include their motorized vehicles.


That was the same argument used by hikers and equestrians to argue against bikers when mechanized mountain bikes first started using trails. Are you saying the hikers and equestrians were right?

The long, well established goal of public land managers is to maximize public land access, while minimizing impact and conflict. That has always required changes in policy over time. Any idea of "we were there first" somehow giving bikes 'dibs' over public land access is misguided.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> Like how all ebike riders are new too the sport too. Completely ignorant of all the rules and customs. Don't dig or support trail advocacy.


Been riding since the late 80's, seems most here are experienced MB'ers too, probably the case on the trails as well


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

alexbn921 said:


> Like how all ebike riders are new to the sport too. Completely ignorant of all the rules and customs. Don't dig or support trail advocacy.


I've actually had luck here. My biggest push is to remind them they are advocates for e-bikes and seeing a e-bike at a work party gives them a good name when they want open trail access. Trail advocacy is a long game, lots of watering plants that might not bloom but it is fun when you start to see fruit on something you've watered for over a year. Two of our board members are ebikers and they contribute a lot, I respect them considerably.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

alexbn921 said:


> Like how all ebike riders are new to the sport too. Completely ignorant of all the rules and customs. Don't dig or support trail advocacy.


Well, every single person I know who rides an eMTB is an expert level rider, most of whom raced competitively at some point as well. In the past three years I've encountered exactly zero noobs on eMTBs on the trails I ride, and I ride a lot. Maybe a byproduct of where I ride, but we get plenty of beginners on MTBs there. Also, many of the people I know with eMTBs are active in advocacy and trail building/maintenance (not all, but that's true of the entire MTB community). In fact, an eMTB is a great tool for trail work days - hauling a saw or other equipment to the site.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

r-rocket said:


> That was the same argument used by hikers and equestrians to argue against bikers when mechanized mountain bikes first started using trails. Are you saying the hikers and equestrians were right?
> 
> The long, well established goal of public land managers is to maximize public land access, while minimizing impact and conflict. That has always required changes in policy over time. Any idea of "we were there first" somehow giving bikes 'dibs' over public land access is misguided.


Uhhh, read literally anything that I've posted on the topic and you'd probably feel embarrassed for writing that take. The point as always been: work within the process for policy change, no short cuts because you decided your eBike doesn't have a motor. The eBike enthusiasts pretend like they are being treated unfairly when they literally are going thru the exact same process as all other user groups. Victimization complex meets entitlement. They are not "being banned" from human powered trails, they are needing to work to gain access because they are asking to change the rules. That's ok - there's a process.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

E-bikes are generally around 20-25% faster than a regular bike from my experience on a normal ride given the same effort level. I rode one all summer around Wyoming, Utah, and Co, on trails I've ridden numerous times and that was the case on almost every one of them. Sure, they may 2+ times faster on a fire road climb in boost/turbo but whatever. I haven't seen anyone claim that they're not at least somewhat faster, otherwise what would be the point? Seems like a straw man argument to me or else you're arguing with idiots. 

And I also have never seen anyone riding one in my area or where I've ridden that was a noob. What noob is gonna spend a couple thousand MORE on a mountain bike than they would otherwise? They're already expensive enough for a noob w/o a motor/battery. Some of these anecdotes can apply to any type of trail users. I often come up on hikers (stand-arounders, cell-phone-talkers, dog walkers) that have done all kinds of dangerous crap on the trail while not seeming to care about my safety but I don't resent them for being there or think they (or their dogs or their phones) shouldn't exist. The level of vitriol spewed against e-bikes and their riders I just don't get.


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> What noob is gonna spend a couple thousand MORE on a mountain bike than they would otherwise? They're already expensive enough for a noob w/o a motor/battery.


Gee, I don’t know. Maybe the type of noob who doesn’t want to achieve the level of fitnesses required to do mountain biking and has a large disposable income?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

For all these "eBike riders are all mtb experts", I encourage anyone to go to dedicated eBike forums, sites, social media and take stock of what you read and see. Maybe be extra observant of what you notice on more pedestrian trail systems. The market for eBikes include waaaay more than our little mtb enthusiasts on expensive models, we're a fraction. It may be who you mingle with most, but the main consumer segment and market growth are not coming from traditional mtb enthusiasts. We seeded the genre in it infancy but that isn't the case now; will it eventually congeal? Time will tell.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> What is the elevation like on your local trails? Are you doing about 100 feet of climbing per mile on average? That is about what I average on my rides, Lots of up and downs, so the motor is very attractive.


100’/mile is hilly for you? 
Try almost 600’ per mile. Lol. This was my record up in Bellingham for “best” ratio of climbing to mileage. If you’re local, you probably know what laps I was doing. Normal riding in Norcal for me is 200-250’ per mile with smooth climbs and steep descents.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

BmanInTheD said:


> What noob is gonna spend a couple thousand MORE on a mountain bike than they would otherwise?


I think more user groups than you'd imagine. Mostly the people who have that kind of disposable cash, and know how much climbing can suck when you're not in shape. And obviously they are selling well, so "someone" out there is buying them. And, not trying to be super stereotypical... but the "Techbro" image does come to mind (I lived in Silicon Valley for 4 years, so I feel I can maybe say that ).

My own anecdotal observations, most of the people I see riding ebikes around here, fit somewhere in the middle of the cycling experience spectrum (admittedly, I'm judging based 100% on appearance here), with a bias towards newer riders. They seem to be in their 30's - 60's, with midrange ebikes, rack, a basic helmet, but no obvious other cycling specific clothing/paraphernalia. And I've never been around them on the trails, I for some reason only see them at the trailhead. So I can't speak to their technical skills at all.



BmanInTheD said:


> Some of these anecdotes can apply to any type of trail users.


Totally agree. Its a bit unfair. Jerks can be jerks anytime, anywhere, on any form of conveyance.

But, it does give new riders an option that might not have been available to them previously. Meaning, an unfit/new rider to the sport couldn't easily "buzz" people on the climbs at 10-15mph very easily before ebikes, while most people fit enough to do that historically, would probably have enough experience/etiquette to know thats not a great idea for many reasons.

Personally I only really care about how other trail users perceive them, as thats whats hitting close to home for me in terms of trail access. And, as they are currently illegal here, that does make me want to give them the stink eye at times. But the "getting passed by someone riding faster than me, when they are less fit" doesn't bother me (I don't think).


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I love that multiple people in this thread have made the argument “ebikes are only 2x faster in turbo mode!!”… as if people don’t ride them around in turbo mode.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RBoardman said:


> smooth climbs


What are those?


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> Peter Sagan says not really....so do all the other pros and fast riders that ride them. So you get an F in stereotyping.


Lmao Peter Sagan probably just rode one around for the Specialized marketing department


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I love that multiple people in this thread have made the argument “ebikes are only 2x faster in turbo mode!!”… as if people don’t ride them around in turbo mode.


You think everyone is riding them around in turbo mode all the time?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Tickle said:


> You think everyone is riding them around in turbo mode all the time?


Does it really matter?


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Have you ridden one?, yeah it does, a lot.


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

I’ve even come around to the idea that it’s ok for gravity riders to use an ebike as a self shuttle, but the majority of folks I see are completely clueless, no etiquette, riding on trails with posted no pedal assist signs at the trailhead.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

ocnLogan said:


> But, it does give new riders an option that might not have been available to them previously. Meaning, an unfit/new rider to the sport couldn't easily "buzz" people on the climbs at 10-15mph very easily before ebikes, while most people fit enough to do that historically, would probably have enough experience/etiquette to know thats not a great idea for many reasons.


Yes and I've experienced this personally. We were riding a trail center that's setup with session-able loops, so you can end up crossing paths with the same people over and over. There were two kids on ebikes hauling ass up the climbs running up on people without saying anything, just expecting people to jump out of their way. I could imagine that as ebikes becoming more popular/accepted that they also might get more comfortable expecting everyone to get out of their way. I have no problem letting faster riders pass but a crowded trail center with a lot of ebikers expecting everyone to get out of their way sounds terrible.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> The comments "they are the same speed as regular pedal bikes" and "they are no faster than pedal bikes" have been spouted over and over since eBikes first came on the scene and this section of the forum was created. Feel free to dig through some of the threads on this site. I am not making this up.


and to anyone that believed that from the start, their street cred of actually having intelligence just went down a couple of notches. we are talking about a motor here. if it weren't any easier with the use of one, they would never have sold any of the things...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> and to anyone that believed that from the start, their street cred of actually having intelligence just went down a couple of notches. we are talking about a motor here. if it weren't any easier with the use of one, they would never have sold any of the things...


"It's not a motaahhh!!!"


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Tickle said:


> Have you ridden one?, yeah it does, a lot.


Yes I’ve ridden an ebike. The percentage of time someone uses turbo mode is irrelevant. Most people are going to use that mode on climbs, which is where they cause the most nuisance. Ask anyone that’s had a negative encounter with an ebike out on the trails. 9/10 times it’s on a climb.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> You think everyone is riding them around in turbo mode all the time?


Well now I need to perform another study and borrow my buddies Levo for a nice long solo ride and see what fits. But I expect that yes I would use Turbo for all the climbs and I would put it on Eco for the descents and probably adjust it up and down on the fly depending on the section I am riding.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> "It's not a motaahhh!!!"


something that boosts rider input up to the neighborhood of about 300% makes you ride twice as fast, who knew?


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

norcalbike said:


> I’ve even come around to the idea that it’s ok for gravity riders to use an ebike as a self shuttle, but the majority of folks I see are completely clueless, no etiquette, riding on trails with posted no pedal assist signs at the trailhead.


If your name is accurate, it’s little wonder…


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Tickle said:


> You think everyone is riding them around in turbo mode all the time?


I very very rarely ride in turbo mode. Hard to control and it eats battery life like crazy

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Of course this thread was started by the (pretend) to be unbiased moderator.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> For all these "eBike riders are all mtb experts", I encourage anyone to go to dedicated eBike forums, sites, social media and take stock of what you read and see. Maybe be extra observant of what you notice on more pedestrian trail systems. The market for eBikes include waaaay more than our little mtb enthusiasts on expensive models, we're a fraction.


I would recommend emtbr.com
An E-bike site (not e-moto) with members from all over the world.




norcalbike said:


> but the majority of folks I see are completely clueless, no etiquette, riding on trails with posted no pedal assist signs at the trailhead.


Thank god I live in New Mexico. Most E-Mtber's I know are older experienced Mountain Bikers. Most of the younger 'noob' riders I know and see are riding 10k Yeti's.

Btw, NM sucks, too many meth heads








and UFOs.

You definitely should not move here.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> Of course this thread was started by the (pretend) to be unbiased moderator.


Balances out the biased ebike mod that allows ebikers to troll mountain bikers but shuts down anything anyone says negative about ebikes.


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## CHROMAG19 (Mar 12, 2014)

Whats the point of this?


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Yes I’ve ridden an ebike. The percentage of time someone uses turbo mode is irrelevant. Most people are going to use that mode on climbs, which is where they cause the most nuisance. Ask anyone that’s had a negative encounter with an ebike out on the trails. 9/10 times it’s on a climb.


Only time I use it is on wide open stuff like a fireroad and when I'm not concerned about battery life, probably 10% of the time. It's just too much for the singletrack I ride especially the climbs. What mode you use is definitely relevant if your arguing they are 2x as fast, the diff between trail mode and turbo is huge, like a fit racer compared to a doped up pro


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Jack7782 said:


> Give him a break, maybe he is from SoCal and hates NorCal? Or could he hate 'bikes' too?


Congrats...you just struck out on 3 pitches.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

This thread is great.

Group: "Ebikers are unfairly labeled and vilified!"

Group: "F those evil Californians!"


----------



## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> This thread is great.
> 
> Group: "Ebikers are unfairly labeled and vilified!"
> 
> Group: "F those evil Californians!"


 really confirms my suspicions about ebikers and helps pad the ignore list


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)




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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I’m now 68, carrying an extra 15 Covid lbs, and I’ve had class 1’s for a few years now. I get out on singletrack and fire roads for a long ride every few months, weather, health and life permitting and I’d say an eMTB makes me about 10x’s faster that if I was on a non-ebike. So what? Is anyone harmed by an old man going out in the hills and canyons on a legal Class 1 once in a while?


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> I’m now 68, carrying an extra 15 Covid lbs, and I’ve had class 1’s for a few years now. I get out on singletrack and fire roads for a long ride every few months, weather, health and life permitting and I’d say an eMTB makes me about 10x’s faster that if I was on a non-ebike. So what? Is anyone harmed by an old man going out in the hills and canyons on a legal Class 1 once in a while?


At 68 you have earned those watts


----------



## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

chazpat said:


> Balances out the biased ebike mod that allows ebikers to troll mountain bikers but shuts down anything anyone says negative about ebikes.


From what I've seen in only a couple of threads around here, he seams to consistently hit the like button after most anti Ebike/ hating Ebike comment, so I guess our views differ a bit. Then again I don't spend nearly the time you do on here as you do.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

BmanInTheD said:


> Congrats...you just struck out on 3 pitches.


Ya, most around here do, especially in the Ebike forum.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

where are the mods when a thread goes sour and needs to be locked anyway ?

Oh.. yeah...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I suppose there _can_ be 3x the difference, if the analog rider is super slow to begin with, and they're a Turbo-Tony on all the climbs, but I'd say that's the exception, not the rule, and what does it matter anyhow? 11 MPH? Who cares? Another great example of ebikes not doing 20mph uphill as some like to claim.

I'd be curious to know what the top speeds are on Strava for that segment, and how they compare to the "test data" in this case.


.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> .. I've just never run across so many entitled, rude, unfriendly, and self-important people anywhere in the country...


it's what we do best. so suck it...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Another great example of ebikes not doing 20mph uphill as some like to claim.


That is a big reason why I wanted to find out for myself. I really wanted to know what my realistic top speed could be on a trail I ride on a regular basis.

As I mentioned in the original post, I am not saying the speeds I hit are bad or good. When I did it I buzzed my buddy who owns the Levo as he was pedalling my bike of the same trail, but I would never do that to someone I dont know.

I did this because I have read over and over that eBikes are only slightly faster than pedal bikes, and clearly they are not if the rider wants them to be faster. Some have come in here and said that they never use Turbo mode, and that might be the case, but they certainly don't speak for 100% of eBike riders.

The more Information we have the better decisions we can make. Now we have more information about real world speed.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

BmanInTheD said:


> Nah, I don't hate Cali. I've just never run across so many entitled, rude, unfriendly, and self-important people anywhere in the country. Well, in the world, actually. And I won't even get into the politics there. But I don't think everyone that DOES hate CA is a chud, whatever that is.


Wow, that is quite a view point. You can find that sort of attitude in any city or town in this nation. Picking out a single state and lumping all of its citizens into the same category is very childish and immature. I invite you to come to San Diego, ride bikes with me and drink some beer afterwards. Plenty of friendly folk around here.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> ..Some have come in here and said that they never use Turbo mode, and that might be the case, but they certainly don't speak for 100% of eBike riders..


I know I personally use Turbo mode all the time when using the assist. I can already move my bike at the Eco and Trail assist speeds under my own power...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Speed makes everything more interesting 🤣


----------



## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Carl Mega said:


> This thread is great.
> 
> Group: "Ebikers are unfairly labeled and vilified!"
> 
> Group: "F those evil Californians!"


E-bikes are the California of bikes. Or is it the other way around? 

/s


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> I know I personally use Turbo mode all the time when using the assist. I can already move my bike at the Eco and Trail assist speeds under my own power...


I hear ya, after just one Ride I am quite certain I would use it for every single climb in my local riding area and turn it off for the descents.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I did this because I have read over and over that eBikes are only slightly faster than pedal bikes,


Except, they are only slightly faster. 5.6 mph to be exact in your example, which by any definition is only _slightly_ faster. Insignificant in any honest discussion about ebike access. Without question, there are elite/pro level riders who are more than 5.6 mph faster than novice riders, but nobody seems to care about that. Or the fact that downhill riders are often 15+mph faster than uphill riders. Why is it okay for a downhill rider to be 15+mph faster, but not okay for an uphill ebike rider to be 5.6 mph faster? The answer is: It IS okay, and there is no actual problem.

I really hate how divisive this has become in the American cycling community. We're all cyclists, but for some reason, Americans just can't seem to get along the way people do in other parts of the world.

.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> From what I've seen in only a couple of threads around here, he seams to consistently hit the like button after most anti Ebike/ hating Ebike comment, so I guess our views differ a bit. Then again I don't spend nearly the time you do on here as you do.


I think where our views diff is in what constitutes ebike hate. I, and a lot of others, don't hate ebikes. We do "hate" when ebikers make claims that aren't accurate or are trolling. Granted, this thread pretty much went as I thought it would but OP tried to add statements as to what he was stating and not.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I hear ya, after just one Ride I am quite certain I would use it for every single climb in my local riding area and turn it off for the descents.


Ride one for a month or two, and that'll probably change. I often use a higher power setting going down than up. The taller gears you tend to use at the higher speeds normally encountered on a downhill require a higher power setting for equivalent assist (not as much torque multiplication from the gears).


.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

_CJ said:


> Except, they are only slightly faster. 5.6 mph to be exact in your example, which by any definition is only _slightly_ faster. Insignificant in any honest discussion about ebike access. Without question, there are elite/pro level riders who are more than 5.6 mph faster than novice riders, but nobody seems to care about that. Or the fact that downhill riders are often 15+mph faster than uphill riders. Why is it okay for a downhill rider to be 15+mph faster, but not okay for an uphill ebike rider to be 5.6 mph faster? The answer is: It IS okay, and there is no actual problem.
> 
> I really hate how divisive this has become in the American cycling community. We're all cyclists, but for some reason, Americans just can't seem to get along the way people do in other parts of the world.
> 
> .


I agree 100% with your comment.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Except, they are only slightly faster. 5.6 mph to be exact in your example, which by any definition is only _slightly_ faster. Insignificant in any honest discussion about ebike access. Without question, there are elite/pro level riders who are more than 5.6 mph faster than novice riders, but nobody seems to care about that. Or the fact that downhill riders are often 15+mph faster than uphill riders. Why is it okay for a downhill rider to be 15+mph faster, but not okay for an uphill ebike rider to be 5.6 mph faster? The answer is: It IS okay, and there is no actual problem.
> 
> I really hate how divisive this has become in the American cycling community. We're all cyclists, but for some reason, Americans just can't seem to get along the way people do in other parts of the world.
> 
> .


From the OP:

_Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes._


Go back and read it, he wasn't slightly faster on the ebike, twice as fast isn't "slightly".


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

_CJ said:


> Except, they are only slightly faster. 5.6 mph to be exact in your example, which by any definition is only _slightly_ faster....


considering that a person walks between 3-4 MPH, anyone who says someone came "buzzing" by has a very distorted view of the word 'buzzing' and is clearly in the wrong sport if being passed by someone doing your exact speed plus a walking pace is too fast for you. When i'm standing still and someone walks by, i've never thought to myself, "man, that guy was hauling ass"...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Except, they are only slightly faster. 5.6 mph to be exact in your example, which by any definition is only _slightly_ faster.


You are not really correct there. On the uphill sections I averaged 3ish MPH on my pedal bike and on the eBike I averaged 13 to 14mph, that is 3x faster, and 10mph faster on average.

with the 5.6 are comparing the total speed for the loop including the downhills?

I - and from what I have read - many others, are really only interested in the speed differentials for the climbs. We all know(I assume) the top speed on a downhill is governed by skill level, not power ability (legs or motor). That is also assuming there are not long stretches of flat trail that needs pedaling.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> considering that a person walks between 3-4 MPH, anyone who says someone came "buzzing" by has a very distorted view of the word 'buzzing' and is clearly in the wrong sport if being passed by someone doing your exact speed plus a walking pace is too fast for you. When i'm standing still and someone walks by, i've never thought to myself, "man, that guy was hauling ass"...


4mph is a pretty fast walking pace. Not unreasonable for someone fit, but certainly above average. I find I walk about 3mph and when I hike with hills and such that drops to 2mph. Unless a pedestrian is "Trail-Running" they are probably going 2-3mph.

Sounds like splitting hairs, I know.

When I hike I always give way for cyclists, probably because I am a cyclist. And most of the time I do that I come to a stop, and I notice the same exact thing for trail hikers when I ride in my local area.

Of course with proper etiquette that has no bearing on whether the rider is on a pedal bike or an eBike.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

"Buzzing" is also a function of the distance IMO.

Someone passing you going 10mph more than you are, on a fire road that can literally fit whole vehicles, is not usually going to be a problem (in either direction). I doubt anyone here would care about that.

Someone passing you going 10mph more than you are on straight bit of singletrack, feels like quite a lot more, as thats usually in the "their handlebars nearly touched me" sort of range and if you're not aware they're coming, it can be unsettling for sure.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Ride one for a month or two, and that'll probably change.


Can I borrow your bike for a month or two?

I doubt that would change for when I am out riding solo. I also ride a motorcycle to work and love to twist that throttle and feel the rush of acceleration. At 43 I still love to go fast. The entire reason I climb hills on my mountain bike is to enjoy the feeling of speed on the downhills.

I know I am not alone in this. All the guys I ride with struggle through the climbs to get to the downs, and half of them are older than me.

I also do not doubt that some riders, especially those who are 20 years my senior, only want the motor for the assist. Maybe in 20 years that is how I would use an eBike.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Carl Mega said:


> This thread is great.
> 
> Group: "Ebikers are unfairly labeled and vilified!"
> 
> Group: "F those evil Californians!"


Damn. I live in California and ride an ebike. 😁


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> I - and from what I have read - many others, are really only interested in the speed differentials for the climbs. We all know(I assume) the top speed on a downhill is governed by skill level, not power ability (legs or motor).


I'm actually quite a bit faster on the descents on my E-mountain bike than on my mountain bike. I have 160f/155r suspension, plus 4 piston brakes as opposed to 140/130 and 2 pistons. 

The increased capability is provided by the evolutionary process of technology/bikes, though not a motor. 

Ok, fully rigid riders....flame on!


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Wow, that is quite a view point. You can find that sort of attitude in any city or town in this nation. Picking out a single state and lumping all of its citizens into the same category is very childish and immature. I invite you to come to San Diego, ride bikes with me and drink some beer afterwards. Plenty of friendly folk around here.


Well, I was talking about NorCal, actually. The folks I've run into and met in LA and SD and most of Southern Cali are pretty cool, more laid back . One of my daughters lives in SD. Beautiful, nice place. The post I responded to was from a guy that said the ebikers he's encountered were basically douchebags. I simply inferred it matched the attitude of a high % of people I've met there (NorCal) over the years/decades. I didn't "lump them all in the same category". Some in this forum say that ebikers are lazy assholes, I don't see you calling them childish. Maybe I just struck a nerve re: California.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Carl Mega said:


> This thread is great.
> 
> Group: "Ebikers are unfairly labeled and vilified!"
> 
> Group: "F those evil Californians!"


California is a boogeyman they use to manipulate hillbillies.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Lulz at some of these great takes... "only nearly 6mph more! Insignificant! You'd hardly notice." I'd love those gains. Hell, I'd love 6mph more on my 300 KTM.

And because a few elites can do that, now any slob who cobbled together a few duckets to buy a motor is _samesies_. Everyone vs. .0002% of the cycling population. Going double, if not triple their natural ability speed. Good solid reasoning!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> You are not really correct there. On the uphill sections I averaged 3ish MPH on my pedal bike and on the eBike I averaged 13 to 14mph, that is 3x faster, and 10mph faster on average.
> 
> with the 5.6 are comparing the total speed for the loop including the downhills?
> 
> I - and from what I have read - many others, are really only interested in the speed differentials for the climbs. We all know(I assume) the top speed on a downhill is governed by skill level, not power ability (legs or motor). That is also assuming there are not long stretches of flat trail that needs pedaling.


ooops, you're right, I was using the numbers for the full loop. The singletrack climbing section was *only 4.1 mph faster*. Insignificant, and irrelevant when it comes to access. Singletrack climb is really the only relevant number here, as other trail users may be encountered, and have limited space for passing, where somebody is going to have to yield.

Double track climb faster? Who cares? That's a ROAD.




> Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)
> View attachment 1966037


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> Lulz at some of these great takes... "only nearly 6mph more! Insignificant! You'd hardly notice." I'd love those gains. Hell, I'd love 6mph more on my 300 KTM.
> 
> And because a few elites can do that, now any slob who cobbled together a few duckets to buy a motor is _samesies_. Everyone vs. .0002% of the cycling population. Going double, if not triple their natural ability speed. Good solid reasoning!


You can laugh all you want but I still haven't heard anyone address the issue of going DOWNHILL, where the difference between a hiker's speed and an out-of-control yahoo's speed (yes, there are yahoos that ride regular bikes, too) is much greater and a lot more potentially dangerous. I've read a few anecdotes from the anti-ebikers about going uphill too fast but I'd bet my house that it's a tiny fraction of the stories of people getting almost run over by d-bags flying downhill over the same time period.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Can I borrow your bike for a month or two?
> 
> I doubt that would change for when I am out riding solo. I also ride a motorcycle to work and love to twist that throttle and feel the rush of acceleration. At 43 I still love to go fast. The entire reason I climb hills on my mountain bike is to enjoy the feeling of speed on the downhills.
> 
> ...


Yes, we all climb for the thrill of the downhill. Even on an E, the climb isn't really the point, it just sucks _less_. The "thrill" of the "power" fades quickly, and you end up just kind of enjoying the fact that you can ride a 6+ inch travel bike up a hill without it sucking. There are ton of reasons to ride at less than "max power", and most people do most of the time, but as you've demonstrated, even at "max power", it's only a 4 mph difference. It just doesn't matter.

oh, before you try to tell me how fast 4.1 mph can seem, the average competitive marathon runner travels at 10 mph. Glad none of them were out on the trail that day. It would have been "terrifying".

.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> You can laugh all you want but I still haven't heard anyone address the issue of going DOWNHILL, where the difference between a hiker's speed and an out-of-control yahoo's speed (yes, there are yahoos that ride regular bikes, too) is much greater and a lot more potentially dangerous. I've read a few anecdotes from the anti-ebikers about going uphill too fast but I'd bet my house that it's a tiny fraction of the stories of people getting almost run over by d-bags flying downhill over the same time period.


You must not go to public comment meetings or advocate for much in the way of trails, because it is a constant topic and a major point of contention in mixed user group settings. I don't see how tripling the uphill speed helps matters. I'll wait.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

BmanInTheD said:


> You can laugh all you want but I still haven't heard anyone address the issue of going DOWNHILL, where the difference between a hiker's speed and an out-of-control yahoo's speed (yes, there are yahoos that ride regular bikes, too) is much greater and a lot more potentially dangerous. I've read a few anecdotes from the anti-ebikers about going uphill too fast but I'd bet my house that it's a tiny fraction of the stories of people getting almost run over by d-bags flying downhill over the same time period.


That is absolutely a problem. A pretty large one in places where the trails are shared use, and bi-directional. I'd hope that fire roads its less of an issue though (again, if people can't handle being passed 10-20ft away, then there are other issues).

Its just not a different problem than other bikes, so its not really a difference. Doesn't mean its not worth addressing though.

Same thing with bike only downhill trails crossing multi-use trails. But thats usually a trail design problem. 

My local area has this problem, where one of the more popular trails crosses the climb trail/traversal trail, and has big "WATCH FOR CROSS TRAFFIC" signs, and good visibility... but if you're at trail speed, you're likely 15-20mph when you cross the trail. At the last public meeting this was brought up (where bikers aren't slowing down before crossing too close to people), and, to be honest, the best solution is to re-route the trail (ie, a chicane, or something like that), so the bikes have to approach normal speeds before crossing, rather than just fall-lineing across it. And even though that was one of the best parts of the trail, I'll admit that that is the best solution for everyone, and that is what was decided at the meeting as well.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> You must not go to public comment meetings or advocate for much in the way of trails, because it is a constant topic and a major point of contention in mixed user group settings. I don't see how tripling the uphill speed helps matters. I'll wait.


I don’t see how going 4.3 or 13mph makes a bit of freaking difference on a FIRE ROAD. Are you really serious? Oh and btw, your bike sucks. Nice…


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> I don’t see how going 4.3 or 13mph makes a bit of freaking difference on a FIRE ROAD. Are you really serious?


Are we talking strictly fire-roads? I'm mean, that's cherry picking to the extreme. If you want to limit eBikes to just that, have it your way then.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mlx john said:


> Ok,_* fully*_ rigid riders....flame on!


ok, now you're just trolling!


----------



## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

_CJ said:


> Yes, we all climb for the thrill of the downhill. Even on an E, the climb isn't really the point, it just sucks _less_. .


 Or the mere fact that you(well I) can still walk semi normal when you/ I go to work the next day, because the pain is a bit less thanks to the assistance on the steep climbs.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Carl Mega said:


> Are we talking strictly fire-roads?


 Yes the OP was talking strictly fire roads to average 13-14 mph while climbing without mentioning this fact. Anyone who has ridden an Ebike more that once knows there's no way to sustain this average on any technical tight single track, unless you want to end up down the side of the mountain.

So now why does the 9mph difference in speed while climbing make a difference on a 20' wide fire road?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Ripbird said:


> Yes the OP was talking strictly fire roads to average 13-14 mph while climbing without mentioning this fact. Anyone who has ridden an Ebike more that once knows there's no way to sustain this average on any technical tight single track, unless you want to end up down the side of the mountain.


I suggest reviewing the thread, put on your readers this time.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> I suggest reviewing the thread, put on your readers this time.


Dude, just don’t buy an ebike, simple. Options. Anybody on this site isn’t going to have any influence on where ebikes will be allowed, so really is pointless. And, without speed aren’t things a little boring?


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> Are we talking strictly fire-roads? I'm mean, that's cherry picking to the extreme. If you want to limit eBikes to just that, have it your way then.


Are you daft? He literally said the only place he was that much faster was on wide open doubletrack, ie a fire road. No cherry picking. You need to pull your head outta your backside if you want to argue. You’re so irrationally anti-ebike, you can’t even follow the conversation. Again, WTF cares if someone is going either 3.4 or 13mph up doubletrack (aka a FREAKING FIRE ROAD!)? Baby Jeebus!


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

_CJ said:


> Yes, we all climb for the thrill of the downhill. Even on an E, the climb isn't really the point, it just sucks _less_. The "thrill" of the "power" fades quickly, and you end up just kind of enjoying the fact that you can ride a 6+ inch travel bike up a hill without it sucking.


This x100 I usually only climb in trail mode not boost unless it's a terribly boring road or smooth trail I can see far away. I'm not racing anyone uphill on my bike with a motor on it duh, and I've never been good at climbs anyway after smoking cigs for 25+ years. And running boost alot uphill really drains your battery.

Downhill I DO run boost, and to the db who posted quite a while back who hates ebiker bros wearing a full face, I also wear mirrored goggles 🖕 lol 

@Klurejr if you get your emtb and ride a some more you'll see like Cj mentioned above.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

BmanInTheD said:


> Are you daft? He literally said the only place he was that much faster was on wide open doubletrack, ie a fire road. No cherry picking. You need to pull your head outta your backside if you want to argue. You’re so irrationally anti-ebike, you can’t even follow the conversation. Again, WTF cares if someone is going either 3.4 or 13mph up doubletrack (aka a FREAKING FIRE ROAD!)? Baby Jeebus!


Well, my personal definition of double track is not nessisarily fire road. The track in question is about 5 feet wide. When I think of fireroad I think of a road wide enough for two cars or trucks to be able to pass each other. In the case of the trail I tested this on it would be very rude to buzz someone going 10mph faster than them. When I ride it with friends we usually have enough room to ride side by side and chat without going into the grass.


----------



## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

My bike will boost me around even faster that what you guys are talking about if I want but where I live it doesn't matter because only the elk get a little bothered when they see me coming and even then now that are getting used to me and don't totally disappear. But while fun it is only practical on dirt double track and pavé and even then not for long.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Mojave G said:


> @Klurejr if you get your emtb and ride a some more you'll see like Cj mentioned above.


Can I borrow yours for 2 months? I need to do some scientific research.


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Can I borrow yours for 2 months? I need to do some scientific research.


NO!  

But you can take it for a spin if you come to Vegas for the OC ride in March!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> Anyone who has ridden an Ebike more that once knows there's no way to sustain this average on any technical tight single track, unless you want to end up down the side of the mountain.


Agreed, technical tight single track uphill runs will only show moderate increases in total speed. That is why I prefaced my original post that the speed difference may or may not be a problem for each trail. It really is a trail by trail case. This is not a one size fits all discussion, and I think that is where some people get upset.

I really do want to do more testing on MY local trails to see what kind of gains I could get, however, no matter what data I collect it will have no bearing on the next trail system down the road.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Well, my personal definition of double track is not nessisarily fire road. The track in question is about 5 feet wide. When I think of fireroad I think of a road wide enough for two cars or trucks to be able to pass each other. In the case of the trail I tested this on it would be very rude to buzz someone going 10mph faster than them. When I ride it with friends we usually have enough room to ride side by side and chat without going into the grass.


Okie dokie, but I was just going off of your quote “wide open doubletrack” Again, on wide open DT, if there’s an issue with being run into, run over, scared, etc, it’s likely an issue of clueless “hikers” or idiotic riders. Not much to do with the boogeyman motor.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

BmanInTheD said:


> Okie dokie, but I was just going off of your quote “wide open doubletrack” Again, on wide open DT, if there’s an issue with being run into, run over, scared, etc, it’s likely an issue of clueless “hikers” or idiotic riders. Not much to do with the boogeyman motor.


Agreed. I did not say it was an issue, just that the speed was possible. On the trail I was riding the sight lines are very good and a responsible rider would have plenty of time to slow down when passing others.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I love that multiple people in this thread have made the argument “ebikes are only 2x faster in turbo mode!!”… as if people don’t ride them around in turbo mode.


I ride mine in Turbo all the time!


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years


You've been moderating this forum for how long? 
This is the first time you rode an eMTB? 
And you're now qualified to tell us how to think?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

RustyIron said:


> You've been moderating this forum for how long?
> This is the first time you rode an eMTB?
> And you're now qualified to tell us how to think?


I am a super mod, I can moderate in any section of this site, and where am I telling you what to think.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Klurejr said:


> Agreed, technical tight single track uphill runs will only show moderate increases in total speed. That is why I prefaced my original post that the speed difference may or may not be a problem for each trail. It really is a trail by trail case. This is not a one size fits all discussion, and I think that is where some people get upset.
> 
> I really do want to do more testing on MY local trails to see what kind of gains I could get, however, no matter what data I collect it will have no bearing on the next trail system down the road.


I agree that on a let's say 15-20 min analog fire road climb at (15% grade) vs a Full power Ebike in Boost, you can easily cut your time in half. 

The most accurate way to test would be to ride each bike on the same 15-18 mile 2800' loop and you will not cut your time in half, so the title of your thread is a bit misleading.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

We all know at the end of the day, anything with a motor is going to be faster. That’s a given. Class 1 are no big deal.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

norcalbike said:


> I don't like getting passed by lazy pieces of **** going 12mph uphill in a full face either.


I don’t mind getting past by someone on a boomer scooter. I‘m generally happy to see they are still active and still getting out there. I just hope by the time I am old enough to need one, regular throttles will be more common as I am not a fan of the poor throttle control that many ebikes currently have.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

singletrackmack said:


> boomer scooter.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Ripbird said:


> I agree that on a let's say 15-20 min analog fire road climb at (15% grade) vs a Full power Ebike in Boost, you can easily cut your time in half.
> 
> The most accurate way to test would be to ride each bike on the same 15-18 mile 2800' loop and you will not cut your time in half, so the title of your thread is a bit misleading.


Yep. This whole narrative that knuckleheads on e-bikes are gonna be terrorizing hikers or other riders by flying past on singletrack climbs has little basis in reality.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Why do you feel the need to take a dig at California?


Well, he is the type of dude who's out there high-speed dodging in and out of housewives walking puppies and pushing carriages on some glorified MUP that he's pretending is an actual MTB trail.
And apparently, he doesn't even require an e-bike to do it.

edit:..My bad - in a stunning twist, apparently he DOES require an e-bike to do it.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Can I borrow yours for 2 months? I need to do some scientific research.


I can get you a fat discount on this bike, but you have to buy it today.









Niner WFO e9


Low prices on Niner WFO e9. 0% APR financing available. Excellent customer service. Click now to learn more.




flyridesusa.com






.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> I can get you a fat discount on this bike, but you have to buy it today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am in no position to buy it today, but just for refrence how big of a discount we talking?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

TIL double track and fire roads are the same thing. Ok hoss, you sound very legit. Come on down and visit and I'll give you an education on trail construction and management. This stuff isn't hard if you can tie your own shoes; have someone get you sorted before you leave.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

ad hominem arrogant disdainful condescension

oh wait, thought this was the band name thread


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> TIL double track and fire roads are the same thing. Ok hoss, you sound very legit. Come on down and visit and I'll give you an education on trail construction and management. This stuff isn't hard if you can tie your own shoes; have someone get you sorted before you leave.


Alright smarty pants, what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle? Since your arguments have no merit you resorted to pomposity and condescension. Perfect. But at least my bike still sucks.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

BmanInTheD said:


> what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle?


No idea what it looks like elsewhere, but I'd say the main difference is about 5-15ft in width at least on everything around here.

Doubletrack around here fits two people side by side walking easily, and riding usually works pretty well if its been brushed pretty recently, otherwise you might have to return to single file riding every so often. Basically think ATV/SxS width, or thereabouts.

Fire Road feels like it could fit a firetruck. Or at least one fullsize truck without hitting brush on the sides. In some places its nearly residential road width, so you could get opposing traffic to pass pretty easily.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> Alright smarty pants, what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle? Since your arguments have no merit you resorted to pomposity and condescension. Perfect. But at least my bike still sucks.



Words. They mean things. Fire roads are, by definition, unpaved roads. Original meaning was to be large enough for vehicles to combat fire issues.

Double track or two track is entirely different. A trail. The OPs 5ft trail is likely a good example.

They are materially different in terms of users, access, construction and management. Further, most "double track" new construction where you need to build a bench is basically 4ft+ of tread (or the length of a mcleod from cut slope to down slope). So this type of new construction is common place in trail systems across the country - probably the majority of new trails built for multi-use. It is many people's trail experience - especially on density areas/trail systems.

So, when speaking about why that may be relevant in the discussion about eBikes and using the normal terms - it's because no one GAF about fire roads where - you'd expect faster than human traffic and there's a sh1t ton of room. On a double track, where multi-use groups interact - welp, being able to power past pedestrian paced users at boost power is something a manager would want to consider when assessing the viability of eBike inclusion...amongst other things.

One thing you'll notice with the eBike advocate crowd is they routinely take liberties or omissions with language to justify their position. AKA lie. Militantly down playing any aspect that might be viewed negatively.

"It's doesn't have a motor, it's 'assist'" (reality: it does)

"You can only reach that speed/boost on fireroads!" (reality: double track and a variety of other trail settings)

"Only has 250 watts same as a person" (reality: 250 more watts and then boost for max)

"Top speed has a mandatory cut off" (reality: all sorts of dongles and hacks to overcome this)

"People go fast down hill and athletes already go this fast" (reality: extra fast eBikes ain't helping and just because a few elites can do that, doesn't have **** to do when EVERYONE can do it)

The point of the OP was that we've heard all of it before - and it was a plea to say: 'just own it'. It's ok to be honest.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> No idea what it looks like elsewhere, but I'd say the main difference is about 5-15ft in width at least on everything around here.
> 
> Doubletrack around here fits two people side by side walking easily, and riding usually works pretty well if its been brushed pretty recently, otherwise you might have to return to single file riding every so often. Basically think ATV/SxS width, or thereabouts.
> 
> Fire Road feels like it could fit a firetruck. Or at least one fullsize truck without hitting brush on the sides. In some places its nearly residential road width, so you could get opposing traffic to pass pretty easily.


This is a good way to define the 2. I will grab a picture of it next time I am on that trail.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I love my ebike.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Holy chit, are y’all still arguing about nothing? Let it go Phil, let it go.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

thanks to the op for showing how he rides twice as fast thanks to having double the power output!

great post.



i guess if you can do x amount of work in half the time, then you must be producing twice as much power. so maybe if you slow down and do x amount of work in the same amount of time you probably got half the workout!


like the mask vs anti mask people. the only real problem w being either one is that there is someone who is one of the other ones. too bad we werent all the same, then there wouldnt be any problems. or would we just all have the same problems!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Two track, double track, etc. is almost always created by four wheel vehicles with a motor. ATV, Jeep, SxS, etc. How fast a one hp bicycle goes on that road or trail should be of little concern to anyone.


.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Fuse6F said:


> like the mask vs anti mask people. the only real problem w being either one is that there is someone who is one of the other ones.


Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.



Ahem... bs.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.


Lol. Perfect example


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ahem... bs.


Sorry, but there is no one out there trying to force other people NOT to wear masks if they want. No one.

It's a crappy attempt at an example.
And the bogeyman is not real.

🤓


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> Words. They mean things. Fire roads are, by definition, unpaved roads. Original meaning was to be large enough for vehicles to combat fire issues.
> 
> Double track or two track is entirely different. A trail. The OPs 5ft trail is likely a good example.
> 
> ...


You're damn right that words mean things. Like the word "doubletrack" literally means 2 tracks. Usually made by or for some type of 4-wheeled motorized vehicle. And when the OP says "wide open doubletrack", I seriously doubt he's talking about 4-ft wide bench cut. Again, how is someone going up "wide open doubletrack" at 13mph more of a danger or nuisance to hikers or other trail users than riders on regular bikes going that fast on flat SINGLETRACK and even much faster on DOWNHILL singletrack?

When you call someone a liar, it just kinda makes my hair stand on end. Nobody said they don't have a motor, nobody said you can't go faster on one, etc. Their context you may not agree with, but none/most of that is untrue. Most of the e-bike advocates I know and read are mostly sick and tired of all the BS generalizations made about them and when they're labeled as "lazy assholes", then yes, they might get a bit militant in their own defense.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

BmanInTheD said:


> You're damn right that words mean things. Like the word "doubletrack" literally means 2 tracks. Usually made by or for some type of 4-wheeled motorized vehicle. And when the OP says "wide open doubletrack", I seriously doubt he's talking about 4-ft wide bench cut. Again, how is someone going up "wide open doubletrack" at 13mph more of a danger or nuisance to hikers or other trail users than riders on regular bikes going that fast on flat SINGLETRACK and even much faster on DOWNHILL singletrack?
> 
> When you call someone a liar, it just kinda makes my hair stand on end. Nobody said they don't have a motor, nobody said you can't go faster on one, etc. Their context you may not agree with, but none/most of that is untrue. Most of the e-bike advocates I know and read are mostly sick and tired of all the BS generalizations made about them and when they're labeled as "lazy assholes", then yes, they might get a bit militant in their own defense.


Really depends on if it is a multi directional multi use trail, how much traffic is on it and how good the sightlines are.

I do not think we can stamp out rules that apply to every trail system. Needs to be case by case.

But I do feel that 13mph fly by of a hiker is a really bad thing. And that does not matter if it is a motor or not. We as responsible trail stewards should be forgetting about strava times when riding on a trail that we share with hikers, dog walkers, bird watchers, families and trail runners. 

The trail system where I ride is very busy by the lake since there is a 2.5 mile loop around it and all the trailheads are right there. Once you get a mile south to the loop I rode in my OP there is much less traffic and mostly just cyclists and the more hardcore hikers and walkers. Further south is even less pedestrian traffic. 

Even parts of my local trail system must be treated differently.

I did have an unpleasant experiance 2 years ago on one of the double tracks while climbing. My buddy and I were side by side, taking up the width of the trail, chatting and climbing. A rider on an eBike passed us in the bushes and never slowed down. That is the only time I have been passed by an Ebike out there and it was downright rude to do. Proper etiquette says he should have slowed and alerted us to his presence and we would have gladly made room. I dont care that he was on an eBike. I care that he just blasted by us and was widening trail while doing it.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sorry, but there is no one out there trying to force other people NOT to wear masks if they want. No one.
> 
> It's a crappy attempt at an example.
> And the bogeyman is not real.
> ...


Dont see many people stealing bikes forcing regular joes to steal some too.

i do see people trying to stop people from stealing bikes though...

are you suggesting that bike thieves are being kind to us.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> I did have an unpleasant experiance 2 years ago on one of the double tracks while climbing. My buddy and I were side by side, taking up the width of the trail, chatting and climbing. A rider on an eBike passed us in the bushes and never slowed down. That is the only time I have been passed by an Ebike out there and it was downright rude to do. Proper etiquette says he should have slowed and alerted us to his presence and we would have gladly made room. I dont care that he was on an eBike. I care that he just blasted by us and was widening trail while doing it.


I ride up behind people talking all the time, rarely do they have any idea someone is right behind them even after announcing your presence over and over. Once, I was ringing my bell and the person stop and looked up like it was Heaven calling them home


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I occasionally "blast by people", on my analog and digital bikes, after politely announcing my presence and being ignored, then yelling at them and being ignored....because they're wearing headphones/earbuds. **** those people. I sometimes have a similar experience with people spread across a trail talking to each other, who don't hear me the first time, but eventually figure it out. They're assholes too, for taking up the whole trail. Two track is the same. Just because you CAN ride side by side, doesn't mean you should, and doing so is rude to other trial users.

.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

_CJ said:


> I occasionally "blast by people", on my analog and digital bikes, after politely announcing my presence and being ignored, then yelling at them and being ignored....because they're wearing headphones/earbuds. **** those people. I sometimes have a similar experience with people spread across a trail talking to each other, who don't hear me the first time, but eventually figure it out. They're assholes too, for taking up the whole trail. Two track is the same. Just because you CAN ride side by side, doesn't mean you should, and doing so is rude to other trial users.
> 
> .


It's no use, guys. We're lazy, inconsiderate assholes if we ride e-bikes, even if only occasionally. And even if the e-bike nazis do the same thing they accuse us of doing or show no etiquette whatsoever. They can spend a thousand words tying themselves in knots trying to differentiate fireroads from doubletrack but the bottom line is they don't really care about safety or anything else. They STILL haven't addressed the issue of riders passing hikers on regular bikes going much faster on flat or downhill trail than an uphill e-bike. They just don't like e-bikes or their riders. So f 'em. I'm done in this forum. It's like being in the DH forum and half the people there talk about how dangerous it is and shouldn't be allowed cuz someone might get hurt or scare another trail user. Cheers.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

I ride a bike cause its fun. If you have more fun on an e bike great. But neither have the right to have their fun interfere with someone elses fun. Be it hiker or biker. 

we can never do everything right.

just err on the side of caution. Slow down, walk your bike, stop. Whatever. 

Unfortunately that will interefere with your fun. If thats a problem for you then you shouldnt be out on the trails anyway. 

act positive and be helpful. Good things will come your way.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> You're damn right that words mean things. Like the word "doubletrack" literally means 2 tracks. Usually made by or for some type of 4-wheeled motorized vehicle. And when the OP says "wide open doubletrack", I seriously doubt he's talking about 4-ft wide bench cut. Again, how is someone going up "wide open doubletrack" at 13mph more of a danger or nuisance to hikers or other trail users than riders on regular bikes going that fast on flat SINGLETRACK and even much faster on DOWNHILL singletrack?
> 
> When you call someone a liar, it just kinda makes my hair stand on end. Nobody said they don't have a motor, nobody said you can't go faster on one, etc. Their context you may not agree with, but none/most of that is untrue. Most of the e-bike advocates I know and read are mostly sick and tired of all the BS generalizations made about them and when they're labeled as "lazy assholes", then yes, they might get a bit militant in their own defense.


Wrong again. I have personally built several dozen of miles of trail that are referred to as "multi use double track" by the agencies that manage it. This is common place - as Stripes pointed out to refer to trails wide enough to accommodate 2 users. What I described is ubiquitous construction method used for multi-use trails - which is where most conflicts happen. Mixed user groups with fast approach speed, bi-directional passing and/or overtaking. Actual single track doesn't have nearly the conflict issues - and technical slow single track even less. If you think about it, it should make sense to you as to why.

If you some sort of stroking, yes the name originated from side by side paths - predated quads and ATVs tho.

You couldn't be more wrong on how eBike advocates frame their narrative and the ridiculous claims. I am literally relaying some from mtbr - our local public comments - and some from "industry leaders". I am pleased that a few people in this thread are more forthcoming and honest tho - I love it when someone acknowledges they are faster and/or they love the speed. We can then have a conversation about next steps rather than debate the obvious.

There's no doubt that the mtbr brand of eBikers have their cackles up over any challenge to eBikes. That's fine. As I wrote in this thread, many if not most trails probably can handle eBike inclusion. I don't nec. think some old mtb geezers getting eBikes are going to the problem user demographic. Ebikes are extremely approachable for casual users and having these users exercise restraint as to when to apply their speed is a concern and already problematic in some areas.

But yeah, I do disagree with ebike == human power in terms of blanket management and, personal opinion, is it is best to left to the land managers as they work policy through well established process. My opinion is based on decades of observations on user behavior specifically in trail systems that accommodate high density mixed groups. The staff who manage those areas need discretion in their policy - some trails are already at, near or past their breaking point and an even faster user group is making it worse. 

(long - might be tldr)

In the spirit of trying to share, you know... why I give a F. Here's my local scenario. There is a small but growing appetite for eBikes on natural surface trails - we already allow on most man made trails. Cool. But, our systems are specifically called out to be human power only thus require a change of policy. Further, some areas are managed in patch work ownership and under various conservation/easement constraints. In effect, some areas/trails will have a hard stop on changing - but some will. It's a big, big pie tho - lots to go round.

So there's a process and it has begun. The amount of bellyaching for not being absolute and on their timeline from some eBike advocates is off putting. Name calling, threats, nonsense arguments because they don't educate themselves on the situation - want want want. But whatever, most new user groups act a bit like babies at first - from pickle ballers to eBikes to e-scooters. Anyway.... the community has concerns but is willing to amend/trial. It's a sharing place generally speaking but there have been some speed / density issues and no one is wanting to get run over by something even faster.

Bottom line: eBike class 1 in some areas - but nothing higher. Cool rightm everyone happy? Well, also in my state is a high density area that allows eBikes anywhere that allows regular bikes. So for our local eBike group - this is an irresistible utopia and we should do exactly like them... Coincidently, I worked for them...so.... I know first hand.

Well, here's what that other local has: Odd/even no bike days. Alt weekend only use for hiker & biker with bikers getting short end. A plethora of hiker only - no mtb trails. Directional trails. No night use/riding. A team of several dozen full time Rangers enforcing all this and routine speed traps and a strictly enforced leash law. IMHO, not so great - where I currently live we have none of that and our situation works as is. 

So getting back to it - because now my area will include eBikes that means we are now paying for 3 full time rangers to be sure everyone is in line and no poaching, no class 3 or motos. That's a $250K /yr that is coming out of our trail budget. We are also realigning trails and changing our corridor for better line of sight due to the speeds. They are also reviewing & comprehensively (tightening) enforcement across the board and is considering hiker only. So, yeah it's going to change the tone, budget and feel of the areas in a negative way. So yeah, given this effort, I have an expectation that we manage our areas objectively not from whimsical promises and lies that our local advocates have made - its not constructive to the process and just wastes time (eg: that "no faster" one just won't die here).


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

BmanInTheD said:


> It's no use, guys. We're lazy, inconsiderate assholes if we ride e-bikes, even if only occasionally. And even if the e-bike nazis do the same thing they accuse us of doing or show no etiquette whatsoever. They can spend a thousand words tying themselves in knots trying to differentiate fireroads from doubletrack but the bottom line is they don't really care about safety or anything else. They STILL haven't addressed the issue of riders passing hikers on regular bikes going much faster on flat or downhill trail than an uphill e-bike. They just don't like e-bikes or their riders.


Man, you are a baby. One of those whataboutism cry whiners. 

So, in real life, what exactly have you done in the interests of mtb/emtb/trails communities? Anything at all? Just whine?



BmanInTheD said:


> So f 'em. I'm done in this forum.


Buh buh then.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

BmanInTheD said:


> It's no use, guys. We're lazy, inconsiderate assholes if we ride e-bikes, even if only occasionally. And even if the e-bike nazis do the same thing they accuse us of doing or show no etiquette whatsoever. They can spend a thousand words tying themselves in knots trying to differentiate fireroads from doubletrack but the bottom line is they don't really care about safety or anything else. They STILL haven't addressed the issue of riders passing hikers on regular bikes going much faster on flat or downhill trail than an uphill e-bike. They just don't like e-bikes or their riders. So f 'em. I'm done in this forum. It's like being in the DH forum and half the people there talk about how dangerous it is and shouldn't be allowed cuz someone might get hurt or scare another trail user. Cheers.


This is par for the course here on MTBR, none of it matters or is of any consequence.

Carl is amusing in a cranky snarky sort of way. He just becomes background noise, kinda like a gnat buzzing around my ear. Eventually just tune it out. There's nothing inherently bad about communicating about these issues, though it's more of an 'entertainment' thing for me when I'm bored.

btw, went on an E-Mountain Bike ride today. 30 miles, 3600 ft. No hikers or bikers (save one) were startled or harmed. Quite a few said "Hi" back to me. Good times, beautiful day. Interestingly, was climbing a techy 20%, when a (aforementioned) rider (going too fast on that section...I've done the same) on a mountain bike had to slam on his brakes when he saw me. He had enough skill to steer to his right as he was breaking traction, I moved slightly to my right. All good. He yelled "sorry" as he passed, I replied "no worries".


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mlx john said:


> This is par for the course here on MTBR, none of it matters or is of any consequence.


This is true. It's less relevant than ever. Have fun with it before it craters.



mlx john said:


> Carl is amusing in a cranky snarky sort of way.


You're just slightly jaded because I called you slow. Pretty sure I've kept any lazy judgment nonsense out of this thread tho - as that ain't got a damn thing to do with policy. Regardless, no hard cranky feelings and good on you for getting out.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

BmanInTheD said:


> It's no use, guys. We're lazy, inconsiderate assholes if we ride.


Hikers and horse riders have been feeling this towards any bikes for a long time....

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

> They STILL haven't addressed the issue of riders passing hikers on regular bikes going much faster on flat or downhill trail than an uphill e-bike.


This has been brought up, and answered a few times I thought?

It IS a problem on multi user, multi direction trails. But it’s a problem for any type of bike, not just e bikes. So it’s not really germane to the conversation here, because it’s a commonality, not a difference.

This thread was about how ebikes bring something new to the table. Which is they have the capability to climb at 2-3x the speed they could have otherwise. That’s just a fact/piece of new data.

In some cases that does can/does cause conflict. In other cases, it’s totally fine.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Carl Mega said:


> So getting back to it - because now my area will include eBikes that means we are now paying for 3 full time rangers to be sure everyone is in line and no poaching, no class 3 or motos. That's a $250K /yr that is coming out of our trail budget. We are also realigning trails and changing our corridor for better line of sight due to the speeds. They are also reviewing & comprehensively (tightening) enforcement across the board and is considering hiker only. So, yeah it's going to change the tone, budget and feel of the areas in a negative way. So yeah, given this effort, I have an expectation that we manage our areas objectively not from whimsical promises and lies that our local advocates have made - its not constructive to the process and just wastes time (eg: that "no faster" one just won't die here).


I believe all this is a reaction to "what could happen" opposed to "what actually happens" The trails will be red with blood if ebikes are allowed, won't someone think of the children. You have wasted a lot of money preventing an issue that doesn't happen


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Bacon Fat said:


> I believe all this is a reaction to "what could happen" opposed to "what actually happens" The trails will be red with blood if ebikes are allowed, won't someone think of the children. You have wasted a lot of money preventing an issue that doesn't happen



Could be. It's also part of the eBike/mtb credibility problem. Picture it from hiker/walker POV "so even faster bikes? we're being pushed out now. what can you do to ensure this won't be even worse?" so it's direct from the community request and the concession to allow. Otherwise, no go.

FWIW, even during our trial period we had non-approved bikes (up to eMoto, even gas converts!), random e-things and poaching. So it is a thing but how slippery will that slope be? dunno.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> In some cases that does can/does cause conflict. In other cases, it’s totally fine.


Funny, that was really a major point I made in my first post, and some in here have argued that it either will in all cases or in no cases.

I dont get why it is so hard to show some balance on this issue.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Where you live is going to have a big impact on the use case for ebikes. It won't matter in the long run as they will evenly outnumber analog bikes. Just like other users fought and continue to fight mountain bike access, so they will with ebikes. Just like the birth of mountain biking, people will fight for access with civil disobedience. I live in the land of rules, California. We are slowly losing the ability to do anything fun. 

Bike access is extremely limited and the areas that have won some battles, rightfully so, don't want ebikes compromising the relationships they built. They are not the same thing even if they share 90% of the same components. The general public has a hard time seeing a difference other than the speed.

Hell, I got yelled at yesterday for riding a trail built and maintained by bikers. Apparently bikers were destroying it, even though it was in the best shape it has ever been in. She had no clue what kind of bike I was on. 

No ebikes are not analog bikes.
Yes they are faster. Kind of the whole reason to buy one.
Yes they do more damage, this is only from the extra miles not some fundamental difference from analog.
Some places are not built for ebikes and probably not for analog either. Why are these trails are the most fun .
Directional DH trails eliminate user conflicts. 

Rain + Cow do an incredible amount of damage. Cows have absolutely destroyed sections of open space in my area and it will take years to fix.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> Where you live is going to have a big impact on the use case for ebikes. It won't matter in the long run as they will evenly outnumber analog bikes. Just like other users fought and continue to fight mountain bike access, so they will with ebikes. Just like the birth of mountain biking, people will fight for access with civil disobedience. I live in the land of rules, California. We are slowly losing the ability to do anything fun.


Don't think you can apply what goes on in CA to everywhere else, long run or not.
You can't.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Hilarious. If anyone but Klurejr had started this thread Klurejr would have shut it down 6 pages ago!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Hilarious. If anyone but Klurejr had started this thread Klurejr would have shut it down 6 pages ago!


It's some pretty high level trolling imho.


.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Hilarious. If anyone but Klurejr had started this thread Klurejr would have shut it down 6 pages ago!


It breaks no rules and has been quite Civil. Why do you think I would have shut it down?


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Since I got my eMTB, I've done my best to limit my time on trail systems that aren't approved for e-bikes. It's hard right now in the PNW because most the approved trails are covered in snow. Even on an ebike, I still ride way slower than the regular riders mostly due to my health. 

I have to admit that owning my ebike has motivated me to try new trails that are actually approved. I now feel confident I can pedal on these adventure trails so I'm looking forward to new rides in 2022.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I still think that behaving as if motorized vehicles are exactly the same as human powered ones is a dangerous slippery slope.

In places where there are true mountains with oneway trails, I'm totally supportive of e- bikes on those particular trails. But on our local 2 way trails with limited site distance they are a hazard.

On a local trail that can be tough to climb on, some E- motorcycles were spotted and later it was noticed a long standing feature was broken. Feature pictured with me. This is the slippery slope that concerns me the most.Because e-motorcycles are coming quickly.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

So the E-Motorcycle broke it? Aren't E-Motos already banned? So if you ban e-bikes, e-motos will stop illegally using the trail. If ebikes are then illegal and emotos still illegally use the trail, should they ban regular mtn bikes to prevent e-motos?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> who's saying ebikes are not any faster?





_CJ said:


> Except, they are only slightly faster.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bacon Fat said:


> So the E-Motorcycle broke it? Aren't E-Motos already banned? So if you ban e-bikes, e-motos will stop illegally using the trail. If ebikes are then illegal and emotos still illegally use the trail, should they ban regular mtn bikes to prevent e-motos?


Motorized is motorized.

Non-motorized versus motorized creates a clear Line in the Sand.

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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I still think that behaving as if motorized vehicles are exactly the same as human powered ones is a dangerous slippery slope.
> 
> In places where there are true mountains with oneway trails, I'm totally supportive of e- bikes on those particular trails. But on our local 2 way trails with limited site distance they are a hazard.
> 
> ...


 that feature looks sketchy


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> Motorized is motorized.
> 
> Non-motorized versus motorized creates a clear Line in the Sand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


So ebike and emotos are the same to you?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bacon Fat said:


> So ebike and emotos are the same to you?


No. 

They ARE actually the same. Nothing to do with me. 

When you add a motor to a bicycle, you get a motorcycle. The means of controlling the throttle (i.e. crank rotation, thumb throttle, mobile app, whatever) doesn't change that.

I'll acknowledge that a Class 1 e-bike is a slow model of a motorcycle and possibly should be regulated differently. Just don't act like it's a bicycle when it's clearly not.

The issue with trying to regulate class 1s differently than other motorcycles is the fact that there's no way to enforce that. There's a guy in my neighborhood on a derestricted class 1, he does 30 + mph down the street to go to the trailhead. These hacks are commonly available and used.

There's no way to regulate this differential. Even a speed limit on a trail which would be horrible wouldn't work. Because it doesn't deal with the fact that e- bikes can get up to speed much faster in tight conditions than a bicycle, and with less skill. 

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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> No.
> 
> They ARE actually the same. Nothing to do with me.
> 
> ...





Suns_PSD said:


> I still think that behaving as if motorized vehicles are exactly the same as human powered ones is a dangerous slippery slope.
> 
> In places where there are true mountains with oneway trails, I'm totally supportive of e- bikes on those particular trails. But on our local 2 way trails with limited site distance they are a hazard.


So you are good with emotos on some mtn bike trails


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> I still think that behaving as if motorized vehicles are exactly the same as human powered ones is a dangerous slippery slope.


The question is, where do class 1 ebikes belong? They aren't going away, so they need to be granted access where it's most appropriate for them. The size, weight, appearance, speed, and environmental impact is virtually identical to traditional bicycles, therefore, class 1 ebikes clearly belong on MTB trails. All of them. Moto trails too, although in my experience, it really kind of sucks riding an ebike on most of those trails. 

We keep going round and round on this, and until you have some data, or experience, your opinion carries no weight. None. Just because _you think_ they don't belong doesn't make it so.

As for e-_motos_ tearing up your trails? That has nothing to do with class 1 E-_mountain bikes_. Banning class 1 bikes is in no way going to improve that situation. It'll probably make it worse, because when everything is illegal, why not buy the most powerful bike you can find? If class1 is legal on the other hand, I'd wager that a fair number of those e-moto buyers would get themselves a class 1 instead.


.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> It breaks no rules and has been quite Civil. Why do you think I would have shut it down?




Aside from the fact that politics have been mentioned this horse has been thoroughly beaten to death and pretty much every other thread like it has been shut down. That's why.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> No.
> 
> They ARE actually the same. Nothing to do with me.


Sorry, the Federal Government disagrees with you, and they make the laws, not you. Further, the fact that the feds say so nullifies any local or state laws to the contrary.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Not saying it should be shut down btw, just that if you hadn't started this one it would most likely have disappeared by now.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've had the experience of an e-bike traveling way too fast on a two-way Trail almost plowing my 40 lb daughter.

I genuinely support allowing people to recreate. I'm a motorcyclist my whole life and know the struggle. 

E-bikes should not be on two way non-motorized trails. They are appropriate for Wide Open Spaces, strictly one-way trails, and Motorcycle Trails.

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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Well, right now the "laws" have eBikes restricted on natural surface trails unless specifically included so there's that.

They deserve their own category and management.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

_CJ said:


> Sorry, the Federal Government disagrees with you, and they make the laws, not you. Further, the fact that the feds say so nullifies any local or state laws to the contrary.
> 
> .


We actually live in a Republic and state laws generally trump federal laws. To be clear TX has very little federal land. It's all city/ county parks and private land and they have the final say.

Some of you e- bikers want to act like you're Rosa Parks or something fighting the good battle but you're not. You're just breaking the law, endangering other people, and behaving selfishly. 

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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> We actually live in a Republic and state laws generally trump federal laws.


The Supremacy Clause in the Constitution says that federal law always trumps state law.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Sorry, the Federal Government disagrees with you, and they make the laws, not you. Further, the fact that the feds say so nullifies any local or state laws to the contrary.


For the love of gawd, please tell me this isn't another stupid reference to the CPSC e-bike definition. 
Please, oh please let that utterly ridiculous 'argument' keep rotting in it's grave where it belongs.

And also, please don't mention the Federal government. 
Someone will cry 'politics'.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slomtbr said:


> The Supremacy Clause in the Constitution says that federal law always trumps state law.


Seems to be working pretty well with weed. LOL!


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

I think our _speed _conversation has jumped the shark. That's ok. Believe it or not, the nature of debate is a lot better than years past. So that's progress.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Sounds like KTM wasted a lot of R&D money when they put out their e-moto, I mean they already have a emtb, but I guess they are the same? I’m confused, please enlighten. Isn’t mtbr clear that motorcycles are not ebikes? FC been putting in all these tests of E motos? Dang! 🤣🤣🤣


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> I think our _speed _conversation has jumped the shark. That's ok. Believe it or not, the nature of debate is a lot better than years past. So that's progress.


Yeah, it has naturally morphed into something a little different than the Original topic. But it has been civil. No name calling, some fair points by all. Lets keep it that way.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Gutch said:


> Sounds like KTM wasted a lot of R&D money when they put out their e-moto, I mean they already have a emtb, but I guess they are the same? I’m confused, please enlighten. Isn’t mtbr clear that motorcycles are not ebikes? FC been putting in all these tests of E motos? Dang!


Yeah, they should stop making the 450F as well, I mean they already have a 125...

This is a silly direction you're going down.

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## Jack Watts (Jul 29, 2014)

Battery said:


> Since I got my eMTB, I've done my best to limit my time on trail systems that aren't approved for e-bikes. It's hard right now in the PNW because most the approved trails are covered in snow. Even on an ebike, I still ride way slower than the regular riders mostly due to my health.
> 
> I have to admit that owning my ebike has motivated me to try new trails that are actually approved. I now feel confident I can pedal on these adventure trails so I'm looking forward to new rides in 2022.


Again, I think this really tends to come down to "what can happen" vs. "what actually happens". I'm guessing you ride Olallie a fair bit? I ride out there regularly (when not covered in snow). I have never been passed on the climb by an e-bike. I have probably passed ebikes on the climb on 5 or 6 different occasions the last 4 times I rode out there. And while I'm going pretty hard on the climb, I'm not exactly setting Strava records on it. 

Can someone on an ebike go faster than I'm going? Of course. I certainly could. So what. 

That trail is a classic example of what ebike access is a good thing. Fact is, most people aren't going to get to the top of a 9 mile climb that's 7% average and tops out at 30%. I realize that some think if you can't pedal up there, then you "don't deserve it". Personally, I think it would just mean that very few people would be interested in maintaining the trail... I'm glad that normal people can enjoy it.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Jack Watts said:


> Again, I think this really tends to come down to "what can happen" vs. "what actually happens". I'm guessing you ride Olallie a fair bit? I ride out there regularly (when not covered in snow). I have never been passed on the climb by an e-bike. I have probably passed ebikes on the climb on 5 or 6 different occasions the last 4 times I rode out there. And while I'm going pretty hard on the climb, I'm not exactly setting Strava records on it.
> 
> Can someone on an ebike go faster than I'm going? Of course. I certainly could. So what.
> 
> That trail is a classic example of what ebike access is a good thing. Fact is, most people aren't going to get to the top of a 9 mile climb that's 7% average and tops out at 30%. I realize that some think if you can't pedal up there, then you "don't deserve it". Personally, I think it would just mean that very few people would be interested in maintaining the trail... I'm glad that normal people can enjoy it.


I've never ridden Olallie before. Due to my health problems, I would not make that climb on a regular bike so I never bothered to attempt it. In general, I stuck to trails in the vicinity of my town because the harder trails are way too much for me to physically handle. I've ridden Tiger a few times in the past but I had some difficult times getting to the top because of everything wrong with me. I would love for Tiger to be ebike friendly in the future so I can ride to the top.

With my ebike, I definitely want to try trails that I've never done before.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Battery said:


> I've never ridden Olallie before. Due to my health problems, I would not make that climb on a regular bike so I never bothered to attempt it. In general, I stuck to trails in the vicinity of my town because the harder trails are way too much for me to physically handle. I've ridden Tiger a few times in the past but I had some difficult times getting to the top because of everything wrong with me. I would love for Tiger to be ebike friendly in the future so I can ride to the top.
> 
> With my ebike, I definitely want to try trails that I've never done before.


What happens if the bike breaks? An electric bike will allow you to go much farther out, which could be a concern if you have health problems that limit your ability to get back to where to started.

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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> Yeah, they should stop making the 450F as well, I mean they already have a 125...
> 
> This is a silly direction you're going down.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


I love the 450F’s. Owned too many of them. What’s silly is you classifying the two as the same. I doubt you walk into a Trek store and see E motos. What works for some trail systems, may not for others. That’s just the way it should be really.


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## slomtbr (Oct 9, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Seems to be working pretty well with weed. LOL!


It depends on the jurisdiction - it's still illegal on federal land.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I love the 450F’s. Owned too many of them. What’s silly is you classifying the two as the same. I doubt you walk into a Trek store and see E motos. What works for some trail systems, may not for others. That’s just the way it should be really.


North County Yamaha Carries Intense Tazers and Specialized Levo's, so Ped-elec eBikes are certainly being marketed to those who are looking to buy motorcycles.





__





New Motorcycles, ATVs, Utility Vehicles | Victory, Polaris, KTM, Triumph | San Marcos, CA - www.ncy-motorsports.com


Shop new motorcycles, ATVs, UTVs, scooters, and power equipment at NCY Motorsports in California. We carry Victory, Triumph, Yamaha, Polaris and more! Visit us or call 800-225-1629 for more info.



ncy-motorsports.com









__





New Motorcycles, ATVs, Utility Vehicles | Victory, Polaris, KTM, Triumph | San Marcos, CA - www.ncy-motorsports.com


Shop new motorcycles, ATVs, UTVs, scooters, and power equipment at NCY Motorsports in California. We carry Victory, Triumph, Yamaha, Polaris and more! Visit us or call 800-225-1629 for more info.



ncy-motorsports.com





They are literally on the showroom floor next to actual motorcycles.

That in no way means a Ped-elec is a moto, that is not what I am saying. Just some more information that while a trek store might not sell an eMoto, Moto Stores are currently selling eBikes.

And this is not new, NYC has been an Intense Dealer for a few years now. I have gone into that shop on occasion to buy things for my Yamaha Motorcycle and seen them there. They seem to have some decent pricing actually on their eBikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> North County Yamaha Carries Intense Tazers and Specialized Levo's, so Ped-elec eBikes are certainly being marketed to those who are looking to buy motorcycles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like one stop shopping to me!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> I still think that behaving as if motorized vehicles are exactly the same as human powered ones is a dangerous slippery slope.
> 
> In places where there are true mountains with oneway trails, I'm totally supportive of e- bikes on those particular trails. But on our local 2 way trails with limited site distance they are a hazard.
> 
> ...


Is that near Broke Leg Mountain?


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


He's saying they ARE faster, _*slightly*_ 

I don't really go any faster myself sometimes I'll catch someone but don't use turbo much, really just focus on doing bigger rides that I used to back in the day that I wasn't any longer in recent years. 

I still say your thread title is misleading tho, NOT twice as fast in reality, 25% I'll give you but I imagine most are not focusing on their speed but rather the distance/vert/time.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tickle said:


> I still say your thread title is misleading tho, NOT twice as fast in reality, 25% I'll give you but I imagine most are not focusing on their speed but rather the distance/vert/time.


well it was 3x as fast on one section of trail, and 2x as fast for a full loop.... So I don't think it was misleading at all for what I did and reported on. 

Maybe I will change my mind when I get a chance to run a full ride on one.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Is that near Broke Leg Mountain?


I'm not familiar with broke leg Mountain.

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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

You need more testing for a hypothesis to become theory 👍


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm not familiar with broke leg Mountain.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Looks like Austin area


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It is that. 
That's a place just down the street from my home and it's my favorite spot as of late. 

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slomtbr said:


> It depends on the jurisdiction - it's still illegal on federal land.


That's not something many people have to deal with aside from the west.
Pretty much just the Green and White Mountain National Forests in New England, and I can guarantee there's plenty of pot smoking going on those spots.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Shark said:


> What happens if the bike breaks? An electric bike will allow you to go much farther out, which could be a concern if you have health problems that limit your ability to get back to where to started.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


It's really no different if a regular MTB breaks on a ride. It can happen due to accident, stupidity, lack of maintenance, or bad luck. If that's the case, I'd do what a regular MTB rider would do: hike-a-bike. On my motorcycle adventures, I carry a Garmin inReach Mini for emergencies. I can text message through the satellites with it as well. I'd carry that device with me if I rode on new trails with my ebike. 

Regardless how much pain I'm in every day, I'm gonna live life out as much as possible. I lost 15 years of my health while serving in the military. I have a lot of catching up to do seeing I lost time not being able to do things!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm not familiar with broke leg Mountain.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


It was in Austin


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Do you mean Cat Mtn by chance?

I'm pretty familiar with every trail in the area and the name doesn't ring a bell. 

That particular trail pictured, is a closely guarded secret known to only a lucky few. 

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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

For the record, in places where class 1 eMTB's have been given legal access to all trails that traditional mountain bikes have access to, none of the apocalyptical scenarios thrown around in this thread have come to pass. Years of "case studies" with thousands of participants, and none of it has happened. In fact, the land manager of one of the largest (Jefferson County Colorado) has written an article/report on the progress of their "experiment". Long story short....not a problem.

These are facts, not baseless speculation.

All you haters just need to admit to yourselves and everyone else, that it's really all about your ego, and/or that you hate motors because you're a Sierra Club / IMBA member, and they've brainwashed you into believing that motors are bad. That only the analog trail users are virtuous (pay no attention to the Subaru they drove to the trailhead), and all others shall be demonized and shunned.


.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Battery said:


> It's really no different if a regular MTB breaks on a ride. It can happen due to accident, stupidity, lack of maintenance, or bad luck. If that's the case, I'd do what a regular MTB rider would do: hike-a-bike. On my motorcycle adventures, I carry a Garmin inReach Mini for emergencies. I can text message through the satellites with it as well. I'd carry that device with me if I rode on new trails with my ebike.
> 
> Regardless how much pain I'm in every day, I'm gonna live life out as much as possible. I lost 15 years of my health while serving in the military. I have a lot of catching up to do seeing I lost time not being able to do things!


That's great that you are getting out there.

I guess my thoughts were, yes a bike allows you to get out far. My worst hike a bike was 8 miles(couldn't fix the flat, it was a fatbike). Dragging 32lb fatty that far just plain sucked.

Now an e bike will allow you to get out even farther/faster. And it's heavier if you do need to drag it back. 



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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Cracks me up to see folks get on here and their ebike argument is about etiquette? Everyone on this forum has bombed downhill into hikers,poached illegal trails,& ridden into slower riders going uphill. If the mountain bike community doesn't get together on the ebike issue,the loss of trail access could be in jeopardy. Like it or not ebikes are here to stay.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

If you think a post is violating the sites posting rules, report the post. Don't taunt the mods.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I cleaned up some of the comments that were boarder line rule breakers, it really did not feel hostile in here to me.... Carry on, keep it civil, try to remember that what works on YOUR trails in YOUR neighborhood might not work EVERYWHERE.

So if you are gonna try and make a point, post the trail with pictures, put some effort in, don't just make general blanket statements. CJ pointed out a very good study that was done on a trail system with really open sight lines and wide trials, and eBikes work great there.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

This thread is so 6yrs ago mbtr never disappoints. 

The bike I ride you can't even talk about on here but is a beast on logging roads here in the PNW that are mostly all behind locked gates. I have come up with a scale of 1-5 to describe different grades of road base. 1 is similar to black top in hardness and 5 is basically what they call rip rap and is used as a base layer but still ridable. 

In fact they just started some county road construction up the road a little ways that is taking over a gated entrance that we used to use as one of the access points to the local forest that is littered with logging roads of all sorts including really old ones we turn into single tracks. The new road will be paved. But luckily we have a single track that goes up in there now just to the north of it. 










I am checking in after work is done for the day to see how they are progressing. Project is going to take until fall of '23.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

CRM6 said:


> Everyone on this forum has bombed downhill into hikers,poached illegal trails,& ridden into slower riders going uphill.


I take exception to this blanket statement. I've been riding mtb for close to 40 years and advocating for land and trail access for most of that time. In an effort to gain and maintain access in our area, I have not and do not participate in the activities you suggest "everyone" is doing, nor do most of the people with whom I ride. I volunteer as a trail builder, as a regional mtb patroller, and on a community open space advisory board as a mtb representative advocating for more bike access to local trails while trying to keep other user groups from shutting us out. 
/ soapbox


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> I am a super mod, I can moderate in any section of this site


That's super. Good on ya.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

sgltrak said:


> I take exception to this blanket statement. I've been riding mtb for close to 40 years and advocating for land and trail access for most of that time. In an effort to gain and maintain access in our area, I have not and do not participate in the activities you suggest "everyone" is doing, nor do most of the people with whom I ride. I volunteer as a trail builder, as a regional mtb patroller, and on a community open space advisory board as a mtb representative advocating for more bike access to local trails while trying to keep other user groups from shutting us out.
> / soapbox


Whatever you say pal..... LOL


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

In Tahoe at least, there are many many illegal trails, and they get ridden regularly. Not by everyone though because they are built by good riders and they are pretty technical. 

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Ride safe


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sgltrak said:


> I take exception to this blanket statement. I've been riding mtb for close to 40 years and advocating for land and trail access for most of that time. In an effort to gain and maintain access in our area, I have not and do not participate in the activities you suggest "everyone" is doing, nor do most of the people with whom I ride. I volunteer as a trail builder, as a regional mtb patroller, and on a community open space advisory board as a mtb representative advocating for more bike access to local trails while trying to keep other user groups from shutting us out.
> / soapbox


That’s awesome. Do you ride ebikes or are ebikes allowed on the trail system you patrol?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

CRM6 said:


> Whatever you say pal..... LOL


So you're mocking someone for building trails? Or are you also convinced that everyone poaches? I don't. Only time I "bombed down" on a hiker was on a trail where mtbers have the right of way, and it wasn't even that close, just not a lot of room as the trail was carved into a steep hillside. 

I'm sure _CJ riders faster on the trails that mountain bikes have the right of way over foot traffic as well.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Gutch said:


> That’s awesome. Do you ride ebikes or are ebikes allowed on the trail system you patrol?


I have demoed a couple of ebikes, but have not ridden them extensively. I don't really have strong feelings about them either way. Right now I don't see myself using one on trails, though I am tempted to get one for in town travel to cut down on car miles.

We have a patchwork of land agencies here (city, county, state, and federal) some of whose trails are interconnected and who have differing rules about ebikes, which makes it challenging from a user and an enforcement standpoint.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Meanwhile, this is the real problem for land managers. Notice, not a single mention of ebikes.



https://gazette.com/life/outdoors/rogue-trails-coming-to-a-head-in-colorado-springs-outdoors/article_2525c80c-796f-11ec-9a28-d3066f5611d8.html?fbclid=IwAR0MMJH6toPf914weCJ1tQdsxi9tiz9cntoUUVSlBzrJpc0701-doohvfCw


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> CJ pointed out a very good study that was done on a trail system with really open sight lines and wide trials, and eBikes work great there.


There are a ton of trails with "poor sight lines" in Jeffco. No documented cases of ebikes causing a problem. Enduro-bros treating the trails like their own private world cup downhill course on the other hand....


.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

CRM6 said:


> Whatever you say pal..... LOL


Not only does the person you quoted do all of those things, he also a sponsor of one of the local race series.

I know it may be hard for you to believe, but some people still try to do things the right way.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> There are a ton of trails with "poor sight lines" in Jeffco. No documented cases of ebikes causing a problem. Enduro-bros treating the trails like their own private world cup downhill course on the other hand....


That may certainly be true. Since I am not from Colorado and have only visited Jeffco Open Space via Google photos I got the impression it was pretty wide open when it came to sightlines:





































I was trying to find the article I recall from a few years back when the study was first done because all the photos I saw in that study were similar to the ones above. Do you have some better pictures of the Jeffco trails you can share with us?

This was one of the few articles I could find that actually has some pictures of the Jeffco trails:








E-Bikes On Trails? It’s A Question You Only Ask If You’re Ready For Coloradans To Sound Off


After the Colorado state legislature codified what e-bikes are and where they can go, many open space managers are deciding if e-bikes are right for them.




www.cpr.org

























For the record I am really glad they did this study, it certainly impacted my view of eBikes back when it was conducted. From what I read trail interaction between cyclists and hikers has historically been really good in the area, which is very similar to how it is in my local riding area in San Diego.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Meanwhile, this is the real problem for land managers. Notice, not a single mention of ebikes.
> 
> 
> 
> https://gazette.com/life/outdoors/rogue-trails-coming-to-a-head-in-colorado-springs-outdoors/article_2525c80c-796f-11ec-9a28-d3066f5611d8.html?fbclid=IwAR0MMJH6toPf914weCJ1tQdsxi9tiz9cntoUUVSlBzrJpc0701-doohvfCw


It has been my experience that most rouge trails start as animal trails and are taken over by humans.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> It has been my experience that most rouge trails start as animal trails and are taken over by humans.


Definitely not the case in this region.
Most were purposely created by bikers/hikers/fisherman/etc.
These days, mainly by mountain bikers.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> That may certainly be true. Since I am not from Colorado and have only visited Jeffco Open Space via Google photos I got the impression it was pretty wide open when it came to sightlines:
> View attachment 1966906
> 
> 
> ...


Is that actually considered a trail? For like, bikes or for automobiles? Being serious here.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I’m posting in this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Klurejr said:


> That may certainly be true. Since I am not from Colorado and have only visited Jeffco Open Space via Google photos I got the impression it was pretty wide open when it came to sightlines:
> 
> I was trying to find the article I recall from a few years back when the study was first done because all the photos I saw in that study were similar to the ones above. Do you have some better pictures of the Jeffco trails you can share with us?





Suns_PSD said:


> Is that actually considered a trail? For like, bikes or for automobiles? Being serious here.


Those trails in Klurejr's reply do not accurately represent all of the trails in Jefferson County, which is 774 square miles and covers topography from metropolitan city and prairie to mountains. 
Here are a couple of videos from Jefferson County trails that are more pertinent to this discussion:


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

sgltrak said:


> Those trails in Klurejr's reply do not accurately represent all of the trails in Jefferson County, which is 774 square miles and covers topography from metropolitan city and prairie to mountains.
> Here are a couple of videos from Jefferson County trails that are more pertinent to this discussion:


thanks!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

That Apex Trail looks amazing. Must be nice to have a Single Direction Bikes only trail. The trail systems in San Diego have only Muti-use and Multi-directional trails(for now).
I have not finished all the videos yet, but in the case of a trail like Apex, the speed differential(main point of this thread) is going to be nil (video was showing mostly a decent) between an eBike and a pedal bike, and without pedestrians the chances for user conflict between wheeled conveyances and hikers is literally zero unless the hiker is on a bike only trail, and then it is the hikers fault for being in the wrong place.
If more land managers took note of this type of trail building the conflicts that exist would all but disappear when you give bikes dedicated trails, and keep hikers on their own trails.









Back to the videos.

EDIT:
Just finished the first video. nothing at the Apex Park was tight or had bad sight lines. All the single track was wide open, meaning you could see a good distance to avoid trail conflict. The single track is narrow as was demonstrated when they showed the main group on the side of the trail to let another Cyclist by in the opposite direction.

I will get to the second video later today.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> That Apex Trail looks amazing. Must be nice to have a Single Direction Bikes only trail.


This policy direction was a massive change for JCOS; they needed it - conflict was a legit issue. Now, many of their significant parks have directional and odd/even use days (eg: no hiking when bikes, no bikes when hiking). JCOS also has entire parks that don't allow bikes (eg: hiker sanctuaries) amongst other designated use trails. Plenty of rangers too - JCOS staffing is huge and highly funded.

An approach like this certainly is a management technique but it is highly controlled - you need to fund and invest into this management plan. There is no doubt that eBikes merging only with regular bikes, directionally eliminates the worst of speed differential issues.

Edit: klur- Corridor clearing (line of sight, etc) and trail maintenance is highly regimented. It is a well honed operation - during peak season there are probably 30-40 trail workers these days.

Here are a few charts to give a scope of the budget resources: https://www.jeffco.us/DocumentCenter/View/22703/JCOS-2020---2025-Financial-Plan


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’ve been fortunate, been riding emtbs since 2016 and never had a user conflict that concerned my bike. I tend to ride mainly solo and that might help. Also been riding two wheels well before emtbs. I mean riding bikes anywhere except your own land is a privilege. I guess some people don’t respect that. I do however, like speed and quite frankly got bored of 4-5mph climbs. Now I can go 20! Jk, relax…
Dog walkers and tourists are the largest group to me in my experience that have no clue how to conduct themselves on trails.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> That Apex Trail looks amazing. Must be nice to have a Single Direction Bikes only trail. The trail systems in San Diego have only Muti-use and Multi-directional trails(for now).
> I have not finished all the videos yet, but in the case of a trail like Apex, the speed differential(main point of this thread) is going to be nil (video was showing mostly a decent) between an eBike and a pedal bike, and without pedestrians the chances for user conflict between wheeled conveyances and hikers is literally zero unless the hiker is on a bike only trail, and then it is the hikers fault for being in the wrong place.
> If more land managers took note of this type of trail building the conflicts that exist would all but disappear when you give bikes dedicated trails, and keep hikers on their own trails.
> View attachment 1966925
> ...


Jeffco is YUGE, with several parks and trails. It's not just one open space. I lived up there in the early 90's but haven't ridden there since then. In any case, the variety of trails covers the spectrum. Certainly not all "wide open with long sight lines". Apex specifically used to be two way, but they had to do an alternate day (hiker/biker) one way thing because of all the collisions (prior to the invention of ebikes). It certainly has it's share of blind corners for hikers to hide behind and step out from at the exact wrong moment.

Regardless, it's a false argument. Pretty much any bike has the ability to go around a blind corner too fast, up or down, and it's really the rider that's the problem, not the bike. When I used to ride a motorcycle on single-track, I'd take blind corners (up and down) at about the same speed I take them while on my E or analog bike. The fact that the bike was 250 pounds and could do 70 mph had no impact on how fast I rode in those limited sight line conditions.


.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> That Apex Trail looks amazing. Must be nice to have a Single Direction Bikes only trail. The trail systems in San Diego have only Muti-use and Multi-directional trails(for now).
> I have not finished all the videos yet, but in the case of a trail like Apex, the speed differential(main point of this thread) is going to be nil (video was showing mostly a decent) between an eBike and a pedal bike, and without pedestrians the chances for user conflict between wheeled conveyances and hikers is literally zero unless the hiker is on a bike only trail, and then it is the hikers fault for being in the wrong place.
> If more land managers took note of this type of trail building the conflicts that exist would all but disappear when you give bikes dedicated trails, and keep hikers on their own trails.
> View attachment 1966925
> ...


Can confirm, directional, bike only trails really reduce conflict, and are great. We have at least 1-2 trail systems in my region that have not only downhill-bike only trails, but some bike only climb trails. Its great. 

The only thing you really have to worry about with that setup, is controlling bike speed when they finally meet up with other trail intersections (usually with a chicane, or gate sort of thing). It does mean though that if a hiker wanders onto the trail, it catches you totally by surprise.

It does seem that the main "increase" in conflict, would then be in areas with multi-use shared climbing trails, and bike only downhill trails. Since in multi-user/bi-directional trails users already have to deal with the "downhill bikes are going as fast, or faster than uphill ebikes" issue. And places with dedicated biking climbing, and downhill trails, already don't really have the conflict that most of us are worried about (other user groups using it as leverage to try to kick all bikes out).


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Good lord. Strong opinions on Jeffco without visiting since 90s? okay. Hikers hiding in wait, leaping into path? Um, wut? 

Here's the thing about Jeffco. I pay them a compliment - in terms of urban management of high use trail systems, they are first in class. Arguably making that experience the best it could be. That said, I have a 25-30 year relationship there and, to be straight, measured against other riding areas - it's a less desirable experience for me. But it is what it needs to be, takes a lot of effort and control to keep the whole process working for most the people. I'd never trade for what they have tho.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

[


Suns_PSD said:


> endangering other people, and behaving selfishly.


I ride both and no, I'm not endangering other's while riding my 41lb Ebike any more that I am when riding my 27lb Ripley. Then again, this is actually true!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.
> 
> I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.
> 
> ...


Your result is based upon your specific skill and fitness. 

Two things at play. 

Handling: If you have been riding forever and have great skill: the better your skills are the better you will be able to go on the EMTB. What I have found is your average rider CANNOT pin it on a turbo lev in Turbo mode. 

Power and weight: The weaker you are, the better your times will improve on the eMTB. 

My Father in law, improves his back 40 lap time from a dying 4 1/2hour to happy 2 1/2 lap. It’s amazing. He can almost ride with us if we pinned it. It’s because he averaged around 120 watts and weighed 250.when you add 250 watts on that, things speed up a lot



Me I can do a sub 1:45:00. I normalized 285w on my “acoustic” top fuel for that lap. I haven’t done a hard lap on an ebike of that lap yet, but I recon, it may be able to pull off a sub hour30, but we will see. I’ll report back when I do it. 

When I was recovering from covid and had Pneumonia, I rented an Sworks turbo lev. And gave a few trails the business. There is a loop called wolf den. One half is up hill and the other is almost all steadily down. 

On the up hill half I shaved off 2 minutes. It was a pretty wild ride, and was like downhilling while going up a hill. I had to manhandle the bike to stay in the power in turbo mode up the trail. Here are my best two all out efforts. One acoustic and one manual. 











On downhills it’s a different story. The bike is not as nimble and the fact that it maxes out at 20s I can go as fast as I can on an XC bike where I may hit 25-27 mph sprinting a flat spot because on a downhill like this, I would be sprinting at watts above what the bike can do and I end up pedaling through the governor. 

Some downhills were slower, just because the bike isn’t as fast (these dedicated DH trails I am remarkably faster on my XC bike with dropper, vs enduro bike.)

See how much faster the bike acoustic bike gets than the ebike that is maxed. Ebike wins by 1 second. Each of these times are completely pinned, and #2 all time Strava E and Acoustic. Disclaimer: I always stop completely and yield to hikers. And pull the parachute if I catch a fellow biker. 











Now this test isn’t perfect because. When I had the ebike I was 1 week removed from bad covid, and still had active Pneumonia. I could barely hit 500 watts for more than a few seconds. But the bike was in Turbo mode and would not have been much faster. It’s quite a handful and in turbo mode mainly because the bike still accelerates after you stop pedaling. You have to adapt when approaching tight corners and learn to stop pedaling sooner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

FJSnoozer said:


> Your result is based upon your specific skill and fitness.
> 
> Two things at play.
> 
> ...


Are you in Arkansas? I rode the back 40 there on a mtb vacation, good stuff there.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Gutch said:


> Are you in Arkansas? I rode the back 40 there on a mtb vacation, good stuff there.


Nah, he's one of our Austinites.
He just rides AR.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Are you in Arkansas? I rode the back 40 there on a mtb vacation, good stuff there.


I’m 65/25/10 Austin/NWA/ Sedona. 


Back 40 is so good. You have got to ride Hobbs when you go back if you haven’t already. It’s 10x better than Tunnel Vision. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cool, I believe we did ride Hobbs. There was a ton of trails everywhere. We rode some mountain with 4 or 5 trails to the bottom with jump lines everywhere. Rented a house for a week and hammered it. I’m vague on names of riding areas there, but we drove somewhere and the singletrack was like stacked rocks 90% of the trail, definitely different. 👍🏻


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Cool, I believe we did ride Hobbs. There was a ton of trails everywhere. We rode some mountain with 4 or 5 trails to the bottom with jump lines everywhere. Rented a house for a week and hammered it. I’m vague on names of riding areas there, but we drove somewhere and the singletrack was like stacked rocks 90% of the trail, definitely different.


Meaning man made armored/fake tech?

That would be “best trail ever” in Springdale. That it is not. I hate manmade tech. 

Kessler is a beautiful natural tech trail system you must ride if you come back. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

FJSnoozer said:


> Meaning man made armored/fake tech?
> 
> That would be “best trail ever” in Springdale. That it is not. I hate manmade tech.
> 
> ...


Sounds fun, although it was a 13.5 hr drive! It’s definitely got a good vibe to the area, just from spending a week there.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

FYI:









Conflicts between e-bikers & others nonexistent on dirt trails in counties where allowed - Horse Gulch Blog


Conflicts between e-bikers and other trail users are non existent on natural surface trails in three counties in Colorado and Arizona where they are legal.




horsegulchblog.com





"“The e-bike presence on trails has been literally a non issue,” said Bonnell. “E-bikes have been involved in zero reported conflicts from our visitors. "


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Lulz Adam's blog. Cool he found time to write when not creeping on local health care workers.









Security to be increased at COVID-19 testing site to stop photos, videos


La Plata County seeks to increase security at its COVID-19 testing site after some members of the public have shown up in recent weeks to take photos and videos of health care workers and patients. ...




www.durangoherald.com





cool. cool. perfectly normal.

Again, eBikes landing in Jeffco is interesting because they already restricted hiker/biker touch points due to conflict before including eBikes. It is the most locked down trail experience I know. Hiker only. Odd/even bike days, alternating weekends, massive Rangers presence, speed regs, huge supporting apparatus, wide trails and directional. So, if you like those things, maybe Jeffco presents a model you want to follow.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> Lulz Adam's blog. Cool he found time to write when not creeping on local health care workers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, stalking people online for doing their jobs and trying to bring the pandemic to an end? Lower than low


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Okay, lets not take this discussion in a covid19 pandemic direction. Either we leave these last 3 posts as they stand and don't comment on them or I delete them all.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Okay, lets not take this discussion in a covid19 pandemic direction. Either we leave these last 3 posts as they stand and don't comment on them or I delete them all.


So, you want to hit the reset button. Fair enough, I have been sitting here reading this thread and watching it grow rapidly while not agreeing at all with your premise that E bikes are twice as fast as regular bikes overall on the trails and therefore not an easy mix. My guess is more like 25% faster overall. Yes there are examples at the edge of
the bell curve and I suspect that is exactly where you and a good portion of this forum are.
I don't dispute your numbers a bit and believe you to be accurate in your reporting. My disagreement is in your conclusions. In my experience, E bikers are much more concerned with people, food and social gathering than their non e bike brethren who are more concerned with the biking experience and maximizing efficiency. E bikers tend towards matching the performance of the overall group and pick up the pace or dial it back to stay in the social gathering. They are more apt to be in your way and unconcerned with your efficiency experience than running you over.
On forums such as this, the perception is different than overall reality and rightly so. You would not be on this forum if you were not passionate about the experience.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

PierreR said:


> In my experience, E bikers are much more concerned with people, food and social gathering than their non e bike brethren who are more concerned with the biking experience and maximizing efficiency.


  

Sounds like your MTB experience has been incredibly (and sadly) limited.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds like your MTB experience has been incredibly (and sadly) limited.


It's limited now, that is why I am on an e bike. Those limitations are not erased with a motor assist.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

PierreR said:


> So, you want to hit the reset button. Fair enough, I have been sitting here reading this thread and watching it grow rapidly while not agreeing at all with your premise that E bikes are twice as fast as regular bikes overall on the trails and therefore not an easy mix. My guess is more like 25% faster overall. Yes there are examples at the edge of
> the bell curve and I suspect that is exactly where you and a good portion of this forum are.
> I don't dispute your numbers a bit and believe you to be accurate in your reporting. My disagreement is in your conclusions. In my experience, E bikers are much more concerned with people, food and social gathering than their non e bike brethren who are more concerned with the biking experience and maximizing efficiency. E bikers tend towards matching the performance of the overall group and pick up the pace or dial it back to stay in the social gathering. They are more apt to be in your way and unconcerned with your efficiency experience than running you over.
> On forums such as this, the perception is different than overall reality and rightly so. You would not be on this forum if you were not passionate about the experience.


For me, years ago on the mtb it was way more about efficiency and pushing, back in the XC days. But now on a mtb or emtb it’s definitely more about the enjoyment of getting together, ripping some trails and if it’s an epic, definitely food bag and drinks. That’s why I love this sport and with the Ebike it just feels less “intense” and less of a testosterone fest.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Good test. A rider of unknown ability can detect a hill that he/she can ascend in half the time on an e-MTB when compared to an MTB. Has no relationship to any other rider on any terrain or to this rider on anything but this hill.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Here's my results. Same rider, same route, "fast recreational" pace on both rides. Only 2.8 mph faster on the ebike over the course of the entire ride.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Gutch said:


> e Ebike it just feels less “intense” and less of a testosterone fest.


kind of except with the ebike it still goes pretty quick and you have to stay on your toes more than just grind it out


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

natrat said:


> kind of except with the ebike it still goes pretty quick and you have to stay on your toes more than just grind it out


Yes! That’s what makes it more exciting and challenging. It’s not a big issue if you can ride.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Right now I have a 64 yr old friend who got the e-bike bug. I am hearing how his muscles seam more worn out after the ride. The heart rate being up higher and other things. I am already telling him he is going to sell his regular bike, he denies it. Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r but he will still be welcome in my group along with two other ebikers. The thing that bugs me is that he went camping with a group of ebikers and they left him behind and ragged him and pushed trying out their bike and went on about the health benefits. I don't mind the group but this behaviour bugs me. Any time you question ebike fanatics they get beligerent about it. That's what bugs me the most.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nosdeho said:


> I am already telling him he is going to sell his regular bike, he denies it. Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r


Beligerent? Pot...kettle...black?

Sorry, but that's a really douchey thing to say, and pretty revealing about your ego. How dare he ride more, and have more fun, especially at his age.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

_CJ said:


> Beligerent? Pot...kettle...black?
> 
> Sorry, but that's a really douchey thing to say, and pretty revealing about your ego. How dare he ride more, and have more fun, especially at his age.


Your proving my point...
I just don't get the anger.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Sorry, but that's a really douchey thing to say,


This is very close to violating the site posting rules about making personal attacks on other site users.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Nosdeho said:


> Right now I have a 64 yr old friend who got the e-bike bug. I am hearing how his muscles seam more worn out after the ride. The heart rate being up higher and other things. I am already telling him he is going to sell his regular bike, he denies it. Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r but he will still be welcome in my group along with two other ebikers. The thing that bugs me is that he went camping with a group of ebikers and they left him behind and ragged him and pushed trying out their bike and went on about the health benefits. I don't mind the group but this behaviour bugs me. Any time you question ebike fanatics they get beligerent about it. That's what bugs me the most.


piss off


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

natrat said:


> piss off


Yet again here is my point...


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Klurejr said:


> This is very close to violating the site posting rules about making personal attacks on other site users.


The trolls are coming out. I really get getting an ebike for recovery days or if your unable to ride due to health reasons. There were some good discussions posted. Thanks for the post.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Nosdeho said:


> Yet again here is my point...


not angry but you are a disrespectful troll, what do you expect


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Dang, just wow. To me it’s simple, if you like ebikes and own one, or want to own one, post here in the ebike forum. If you don’t, than don’t bother. I mean wtf? I’m personally not a fan of rigid or single speeds, but whatever? At the end of the day, we are consumers of the emtbs being produced by the same manufacturers that mtbrs ride, and yes, 98 or 99% of us were former mtbrs and still ride mtbs. Not me, I’ve made the switch and will never look back. So, if everybody are true cyclists, than seriously why such the hate? We all know anyone can be a Jack a—, on anything. We also know emtbs are not going to disappear. I believe, mtbs will become the minority in the future. Whether good or bad, things change and it’s just the way it is. Not for everyone, agreed.But damn man, sounds like a bunch of beutches on here whining about BS.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

The me vs. you thing is part of what keeps the lights on here on empty beer. I joined here in 1999 and it was the same thing then but about 29" wheels. Maybe because mtbr has so many sub forums that people get bored of trying to find somebody to discuss the finer points of hitting berms at speed or single speed fat bikes etc. and wander over here to talk about things they really do know nothing about.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Bigwheel said:


> The me vs. you thing is part of what keeps the lights on here on empty beer…


I agree and what makes this topic that much more volatile is that what we got here are two different sports. I guess we are supposed to pretend they are the same sport because there is a specific forum for ebikes here on a mountain bike web site, but people don’t like that, because they are not the same sport. So, no matter what the mods or anyone at emptybeer do, it will not stop the me vs you, because that is what it is, one sport vs another different sport.

*although, can you call ebiking a sport? Do they have ebike competitions? Or is ebiking a sport like jet skiing is a sport? Super fun, but not really challenging.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I’m personally not a fan of rigid or single speeds, but whatever?


HATER!


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Gutch said:


> To me it’s simple, if you like ebikes and own one, or want to own one, post here in the ebike forum. If you don’t, than don’t bother.


I can't speak for others, but I frequently click the big "NEW" button at the top of the page. And new threads/responses no matter the subforum show up that way.



Gutch said:


> But damn man, sounds like a bunch of beutches on here whining about BS.


Sure, there have been people complaining on both sides, but I honestly think its been surprisingly even kneeled for the most part. But I don't really see how reporting that hikers/other trail users are talking about trail speeds in their local meetings, which could impact mountain bike access is really "whining".

I really have nothing to prove to/compete with a guy passing me on a climb trail on an ebike, and honestly don't have strong feelings either way about them (other than WOW, some can be expensive). But ebike poaching that causes other user groups to get vocal in access meetings? That does strike closer to home, and causes people to speak up.

And... Both "they are only 25% faster overall" and "they are two to three times faster when climbing in turbo mode", can easily be true. But to other trail users, they only usually see bikers for a moment. So whatever speed you pass them at, is their impression of your speed, for better or worse.



singletrackmack said:


> *although, can you call ebiking a sport? Do they have ebike competitions? Or is ebiking a sport like jet skiing is a sport? Super fun, but not really challenging.


You can! Or... at least, they have the E-EWS series running alongside the actual EWS series. So in that case its probably a sport. They time the the ups, and the downs.

Say what you will about Ebike racing. But IIRC this last year we had 2-3 decades worth of DH world champions battling it out (competitively) for the one race I heard about (Reece Wilson, Sam Hill, and Nicolas Vouilloz). And who can't say they haven't wondered what it would be like to see them all race before?



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/final-results-from-ews-e-tweed-valley-2021.html


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

You can go as fast or as slow as you want, just depends on your battery and controller voltage, and of course your wheel diameter and how much you pedal.
You could hook up to 24v hub motor like a bafang that is like a stupid 15t (really low rpm per volt) and go as slow as you want, vs 72v 3t setup.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

natrat said:


> not angry but you are a disrespectful troll, what do you expect


Where was I a troll? I point out facts and out comes the hate. People buy e-bikes and some people have to prove why they did it or get cocky to prove some point. I just want to ride my bike and people like to ride with me. If you want to spew anger go ahead but it is petty and not becoming of you.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Nosdeho said:


> Where was I a troll? I point out facts and out comes the hate. People buy e-bikes and some people have to prove why they did it or get cocky to prove some point. I just want to ride my bike and people like to ride with me. If you want to spew anger go ahead but it is petty and not becoming of you.


"Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r"
that's kind of trolly, this one though made me giggle 
"*although, can you call ebiking a sport? Do they have ebike competitions? Or is ebiking a sport like jet skiing is a sport? Super fun, but not really challenging."


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, that’s pretty weak and obviously doesn’t own an ebike. What’s really weak is that he was going to pour out some beer! That’s just alcohol abuse and I believe that violates 99% of any rider, riding anything!


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

natrat said:


> "Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r"
> that's kind of trolly, this one though made me giggle
> "*although, can you call ebiking a sport? Do they have ebike competitions? Or is ebiking a sport like jet skiing is a sport? Super fun, but not really challenging."


Thanks for the reply. Honestly the 64 year old is a amazing rider and his energy dropped this year. His recovery is taking longer. He needs more time behind the saddle because endurance is a willy she devil that leaves quickly and takes much time to get back. I only hope to be in the shape he is in at his age. He bought a e-bike because he wants to keep up with the younger guys without putting in 60+ miles a week. I get it and yes he is in my crew so I give him flac but I don't mind being called a Strava ho either. My favorite group ride was with a ebiker leading everyone his etiquette was on point. His bike was a bike and he didn't push how awesome e-bikes we're or the health benefits or how every one is going to be riding them soon enough or go 20+mph like he was riding motocross. He just rode his e-bike like any other mtb would. Big props to the trail crew at Rope Mills in Atlanta and Blankets Creek.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Gutch said:


> Yes, that’s pretty weak and obviously doesn’t own an ebike. What’s really weak is that he was going to pour out some beer! That’s just alcohol abuse and I believe that violates 99% of any rider, riding anything!


Lol I'll get a mic lite, it's beer flavored water anyway.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Are the trails near “Outspoken bikes” worthy? That’s where I purchased my Levo, nice people. They told me that was one of the most visited riding areas in the U.S?? Or did he say East coast? It’s 2.5 hrs from me.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Gutch said:


> Are the trails near “Outspoken bikes” worthy? That’s where I purchased my Levo, nice people. They told me that was one of the most visited riding areas in the U.S?? Or did he say East coast? It’s 2.5 hrs from me.


Alifia, Balm and Carter. Awesome trails. One of my other favorite group rides. Kenny's Balm night ride is a must do if your in town. The other favorite group ride is the Dothan crew in Alabama. I think Carter is working to get the land managers to allow class ones, but the park rangers don't police the trails for e-bikes.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> This is a good way to define the 2. I will grab a picture of it next time I am on that trail.


Was able to get back out there yesterday for a quick post work ride. When I said "wide-open" Double Track, this is what I meant:









It is not a single track as 2 people can ride or walk side by side on it, and it most certainly is not fire road. I say Wide-open to reference the sight lines which are very good, you can see that the trail goes up and to the left and then makes a right hand turn before it intersects at the ridgeline. I hope that at least clears up that part of the discussion.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I listened to this podcast yesterday while driving home from riding my ebike. I had no idea PFB had an eMTB person on staff, but I'm glad to hear that they do, and she seems to be on top of it.

Listener warning: The word "analog" is frequently used in this interview. 🤣 









Singletracks Mountain Bike Podcast - The Current⚡️State of Electric Mountain Bike Trail Access in the US


Rachel Fussell is the electric mountain bike Policy and Program Manager at People for Bikes. The group’s stated mission is to change the world through bikes by focusing on empowering cities, creating connections, and supporting the bike industry. In this episode we ask: * What are the...




podcasts.google.com


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cool, I’ll keep those in mind. I think the trail systems they were talking about were Woodstock, and Blankets creek park. Ever ridden them?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Cool, I’ll keep those in mind. I think the trail systems they were talking about were Woodstock, and Blankets creek park. Ever ridden them?


Blankets, which is pretty much in Woodstock, I believe is one of the most popular trail systems in the East Coast, or at least South East. Rope Mill is just down the road a few miles. They had hoped to link the two trail systems together but that hasn't worked out. Allatoona Creek is a great system, rode there this past weekend. It has a lot more mileage available and a large variety of trails.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

I have not read through all 16 pages of replies, but riding an eBike on fire road climbs is very different than riding an eBike on technical climbs. Either way they are significantly faster and I have the times to compare on everything.

Biggest issue I see is that we have an entire new user group to educate on trail etiquette and some new rules to lay down on the eBikes vs analog bikes. That will take time and effort and not sure anyone wants to deal with it.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Blankets, which is pretty much in Woodstock, I believe is one of the most popular trail systems in the East Coast, or at least South East. Rope Mill is just down the road a few miles. They had hoped to link the two trail systems together but that hasn't worked out. Allatoona Creek is a great system, rode there this past weekend. It has a lot more mileage available and a large variety of trails.


Thanks for the recommendations, are any ebike friendly?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Entirely new user group, as in new riders, or new sport? @Salespunk


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Well this ol timer just got back into Mt Bikes after being away for 25 years. I used to XC race back in the late 80's and early 90's. I still have both of my 26" Ventana's that weigh 22-23lbs. I attended the Sea Otter Classic this last year in Monterey, CA at the Laguna Seca race track. I raced the old farts Class at this race in 02' where I got 8th. I could not believe all changes in bikes!! Gone were Triple Rings, and bikes made from Tube Sets (Alum, Ti or Steel) replaced with Carbon Fiber frame sets with swoopy lines and wild paint jobs. It seemed even the little kid racers had Carbon bikes!

So I started getting fired up since then I put Mt Bikes aside and was into RC airplanes for the last 20 or so years. I'm now 70 and the eBikes seemed a way for me to creep back into the sport. I got a Luna cycle Apollo with 160Nm Torque with an 1100Wh battery. Mine had a thumb throttle on the left but I'm an ol MX guy so I wanted a twist throttle on the right.

I put on on all the bells and whistles as a reward for making it this far on this goofy 3rd rock from the sun. ENVE carbon wheels Chis King hubs, SRAM XX1 Bluetooth Dropper & Shift set up and Rockshox Fork and Shock. I'm way courteous when I come up on hikers and slow to their pace on Fire Roads. I find the motor allows me to climb at silly speeds remembering I raced at Snow Summit, Mt High and Mammoth here in California on Rigid Bikes when I first started. I usually never use more than 2 PAS really enjoy getting out there again. If I get my cardio training going quick enough I might try and race the upcoming Sea Otter again this coming April, they have a eBike class, but no Throttles can be used (must be removed).

I think there is enough room for everyone on Fire Roads at least and single tracks the Mt Bikes can be used with all types of bikes. Looking forward to a great ride off of HWY 35 and called La Purisima that goes from 35 down to the coast with great single track and scenery like 300 ft Pine trees something out of an Alice and Wonderland movie!

I'm new to this site and really like to read all the opinions expressed here!

Cheers!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

More eMTB data, from my ride yesterday. All singletrack, no roads or pavement. It was around a reservoir, generally flat, +/-100 feet elevation, so maybe more comparable to people in parts of the country that aren't so mountainous.

My assist level was almost entirely in "sport", which is one below full power. Speeds for me on this bike don't get any faster. This is desert terrain with wide open sight lines, and not very technical at all. Speeds and power again not much different than an analog bike. In my racing days, 14mph average was pretty common on courses with this sort of terrain.



















.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Nosdeho said:


> Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r but he will still be welcome in my group along with two other ebikers.


It’s only Feb.1st and this comment wins for the most delusional on MTBR for the year. You wouldn’t be saying this if you seen the Ebike riders where I live in So Cal.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Thanks for the recommendations, are any ebike friendly?


They are allowed, I can't say if they are friendly or not (JK). 

I see an ebike maybe every other ride on these trails. Saw one weekend before last when I was about to hit a big jump (I'm not much of a jumper) and then saw someone riding the wrong way toward me. Almost all of the trails are directional, changing based on the day. I saw the guy again on another trail, also riding the wrong direction. He told me he was purposely riding back up the trail the first time to hit the section again but the second time he had just gone the wrong way. The guy rode like a maniac, I couldn't decide if I should admire his skills to keep it on the trail or if I should expect to find him down in a gully, I was literally laughing about it. But the other ebikers I've come across on these trails weren't like that.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Gutch said:


> Entirely new user group, as in new riders, or new sport? @Salespunk


New riders. Whether we like it or not eBike are going to be on the trails and get lumped in with MTB's. Pandora's box has been opened at this point.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Ripbird said:


> It’s only Feb.1st and this comment wins for the most delusional on MTBR for the year. You wouldn’t be saying this if you seen the Ebike riders where I live in So Cal.


Why?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

"real mtb'r"


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Salespunk said:


> New riders. Whether we like it or not eBike are going to be on the trails and get lumped in with MTB's. Pandora's box has been opened at this point.


I usually ride mid week, so I don’t encounter tons of other riders, but I finally rode some busy trails on the weekend last month where I saw a good 80+ other riders and tons of beginners. Not one of the beginners I saw were on an Ebike, so it goes both ways.


Nosdeho said:


> Why?


Because you seam to think that you’re no longer a real MTB rider once you ride and Ebike, or did you change your mind?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Nosdeho said:


> Next night ride I am going to pour a bit of my beer out for the loss of another real mtb'r but he will still be welcome in my group along with two other ebikers.





Ripbird said:


> It’s only Feb.1st and this comment wins for the most delusional on MTBR for the year. You wouldn’t be saying this if you seen the Ebike riders where I live in So Cal.


Wait, what if he’d seen the ebike riders where you live in So Cal and agreed they were “real ebikers”?!?!

the semantics of this all is quite silly and fun


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

singletrackmack said:


> Wait, what if he’d seen the ebike riders where you live in So Cal and agreed they were “real ebikers”?!?!
> 
> the semantics of this all is quite silly and fun


Then he wouldn’t need to pour out his beer.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> I usually ride mid week, so I don’t encounter tons of other riders, but I finally rode some busy trails on the weekend last month where I saw a good 80+ other riders and tons of beginners. Not one of the beginners I saw were on an Ebike, so it goes both ways.
> 
> Because you seam to think that you’re no longer a real MTB rider once you ride and Ebike, or did you change your mind?


But if things go the way a lot of folks are predicting, in the future people will buy ebikes and never buy a mtb. So the vast majority of beginners will be on ebikes.

I've seen a mix, more on the younger side actually. Once guy, maybe in his 40s (so not so young) was showing off his ebike to a kid at the trail head. He took off down the trail with a friend, who was on a non-ebike. I gave them a good head start and then dropped in. I quickly caught up to the ebiker, poor guy seemed to be terrified, he was jerking the handlebar back and forth all over the place and the trail was a little rocky but not much at all and not steep other than a couple of short drops. To be fair, I'm sure he would have been exactly the same if he was on a non-ebike and he wasn't riding fast. But yeah, he was a definite beginner. I also saw a group of teenagers with one's dad, all on ebikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Salespunk said:


> I have not read through all 16 pages of replies, but riding an eBike on fire road climbs is very different than riding an eBike on technical climbs. Either way they are significantly faster and I have the times to compare on everything.
> 
> Biggest issue I see is that we have an entire new user group to educate on trail etiquette and some new rules to lay down on the eBikes vs analog bikes. That will take time and effort and not sure anyone wants to deal with it.


I have yet to see a newb on an emtb. Not saying they don’t exist, probably less ebikers where I live ratio wise. Wtf would you want to learn on an emtb? I absolutely loved riding mtbs, I just got bored.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

Ripbird said:


> I usually ride mid week, so I don’t encounter tons of other riders, but I finally rode some busy trails on the weekend last month where I saw a good 80+ other riders and tons of beginners. Not one of the beginners I saw were on an Ebike, so it goes both ways.
> 
> Because you seam to think that you’re no longer a real MTB rider once you ride and Ebike, or did you change your mind?


A real mtb'r struggles thru climbs, if they can't make it thru try until they do. They want to be faster they grind and put the time in. Real Mtb'r don't change the trail to make it easier they conquer that trail. Real mtbr's when their heart goes bad gets a heart rate monitor and gets an ebike or is 70+ and has bad asthma and falls breaks his clavicle and collapses part of his lung, he recovers gets a better ebike and is back on the trail ASAP. I am a trail advocate I accept all kinds of people but their is a difference between a guy who owns an mountain bike and a mountain biker. Oh yeah they do trail work too. The 64 year old does all of this, I disagree with him as a retired man not just putting more time in age is a number I think he is taking the easy road, I have told him this. He is a big boy and I respect him but I have a 70+ man on a 26" full squish grinding away because he needs to stay active and an e-bike is not an option because he gets it.
Also a friend in Ga who moved next to the trail and works from home and rides an ebike every lunch break to do the whole trail. He avocates and lives and breathes MTB.


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

singletrackmack said:


> Wait, what if he’d seen the ebike riders where you live in So Cal and agreed they were “real ebikers”?!?!
> 
> the semantics of this all is quite silly and fun


I agree I honestly don't think this conversation is very constructive. I am tapping out. I would rather talk about geometry of gravel bikes. Thanks for the thread though our trail system is trying to get our land managers to adopt the class one language and it is good to see both sides of this debate.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nosdeho said:


> A real mtb'r struggles thru climbs, if they can't make it thru try until they do.


Sorry world cup downhill riders, anyone who rides a chairlift, shuttles a run, or rides an ebike, you're not "real mtb'rs". 🤣


.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nosdeho said:


> Real Mtb'r don't change the trail to make it easier they conquer that trail.


If only.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Nosdeho said:


> A real mtb'r struggles thru climbs, if they can't make it thru try until they do. They want to be faster they grind and put the time in. Real Mtb'r don't change the trail to make it easier they conquer that trail. Real mtbr's when their heart goes bad gets a heart rate monitor and gets an ebike or is 70+ and has bad asthma and falls breaks his clavicle and collapses part of his lung, he recovers gets a better ebike and is back on the trail ASAP. I am a trail advocate I accept all kinds of people but their is a difference between a guy who owns an mountain bike and a mountain biker. Oh yeah they do trail work too. The 64 year old does all of this, I disagree with him as a retired man not just putting more time in age is a number I think he is taking the easy road, I have told him this. He is a big boy and I respect him but I have a 70+ man on a 26" full squish grinding away because he needs to stay active and an e-bike is not an option because he gets it.
> Also a friend in Ga who moved next to the trail and works from home and rides an ebike every lunch break to do the whole trail. He avocates and lives and breathes MTB.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

As long as I struggle I'm still a real MTB'r. That's easy!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I struggled on a regular MTB for 7 years due to my ongoing health problems. I didn't want to give up but I decided to switch over to an eMTB just to keep pedaling. I guess I'm no longer a real MTB rider.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Hey Battery....The hell you're not!!!!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Battery said:


> I struggled on a regular MTB for 7 years due to my ongoing health problems. I didn't want to give up but I decided to switch over to an eMTB just to keep pedaling. I guess I'm no longer a real MTB rider.


But you are a real eMTB rider!


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> But you are a real eMTB rider!


True!


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

Nosdeho said:


> A real mtb'r struggles thru climbs, if they can't make it thru try until they do. They want to be faster they grind and put the time in.


meh, been there done that
real ebiker flys up climbs then gets much more vertical decent per session and develops more skillz


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

natrat said:


> meh, been there done that
> real ebiker flys up climbs then gets much more vertical decent per session and develops more skillz


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Nosdeho said:


> A real mtb'r struggles thru climbs, if they can't make it thru try until they do. They want to be faster they grind and put the time in. Real Mtb'r don't change the trail to make it easier they conquer that trail. Real mtbr's when their heart goes bad gets a heart rate monitor and gets an ebike or is 70+ and has bad asthma and falls breaks his clavicle and collapses part of his lung, he recovers gets a better ebike and is back on the trail ASAP. I am a trail advocate I accept all kinds of people but their is a difference between a guy who owns an mountain bike and a mountain biker. Oh yeah they do trail work too. The 64 year old does all of this, I disagree with him as a retired man not just putting more time in age is a number I think he is taking the easy road, I have told him this. He is a big boy and I respect him but I have a 70+ man on a 26" full squish grinding away because he needs to stay active and an e-bike is not an option because he gets it.
> Also a friend in Ga who moved next to the trail and works from home and rides an ebike every lunch break to do the whole trail. He avocates and lives and breathes MTB.


This is a bunch of word salad that means nothing and goes nowhere....


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I thought this was a thread about how much faster an ebike is. 

FWIW average Joes ebikes and Strava ebike leaderboards can’t seem to beat a national level pro around a length trail loop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

FJSnoozer said:


> I thought this was a thread about how much faster an ebike is.
> 
> FWIW average Joes ebikes and Strava ebike leaderboards can’t seem to beat a national level pro around a length trail loop.
> 
> ...


I guess Pro’s are a problem 🤣🤣🤣


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Gutch said:


> I guess Pro’s are a problem 🤣🤣🤣


Actually they sometimes are. But luckily they are few and far between and most have learned something along the way to all that speed potential. Now, with eBikes, anyone can achieve that speed - and likely to apply it on (once) pedestrian friendly flat trails and bidirectional uphills. Avg speed doesn't consider where the speed is being applied. This is basic: everyone being able achieve said speeds is a different problem than .001% of elites.

but keep on, keeping on with pretending they are the same.

A useful analog outside of mtb might be the rise of the SxS. Yes, the speeds they achieve were attainable by other OHVs. But those OHVs required some dedication to the craft and didn't really have the same foot print. But SxS are so approachable for novice, now it's a sh1tshow in many places where they are found in any density. Tons of speed happy novice users who are insulated from their conduct and impatient with mixed use slower/opposite traffic. Most don't apply restraint in respect to their impact on others. It hasn't been good.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> Actually they sometimes are. But luckily they are few and far between and most have learned something along the way to all that speed potential. Now, with eBikes, anyone can achieve that speed - and likely to apply it on (once) pedestrian friendly flat trails and bidirectional uphills. Avg speed doesn't consider where the speed is being applied. This is basic: everyone being able achieve said speeds is a different problem than .001% of elites.
> 
> but keep on, keeping on with pretending they are the same.
> 
> A useful analog outside of mtb might be the rise of the SxS. Yes, the speeds they achieve were attainable by other OHVs. But those OHVs required some dedication to the craft and didn't really have the same foot print. But SxS are so approachable for novice, now it's a sh1tshow in many places where they are found in any density. Tons of speed happy novice users who are insulated from their conduct and impatient with mixed use slower/opposite traffic. Most don't apply restraint in respect to their impact on others. It hasn't been good.


“Anyone” can achieve that speed on singletrack? Even a newb? My wife doesn’t ride, I’ll put her on my Levo and in Turbo mode and let her rip singletrack. Won’t happen, can’t, no skills. She would be a noob, no? The real problem is that y’all can’t accept change. Or you can’t accept that fellow mtbrs have changed! Live with an ebike for a year or two and see how “real life” scenario’s unfold.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Pro level pounce!


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Gutch said:


> “Anyone” can achieve that speed on singletrack? Even a newb? My wife doesn’t ride, I’ll put her on my Levo and in Turbo mode and let her rip singletrack. Won’t happen, can’t, no skills. She would be a noob, no? The real problem is that y’all can’t accept change. Or you can’t accept that fellow mtbrs have changed! Live with an ebike for a year or two and see how “real life” scenario’s unfold.


Why do you guys always try to minimize the scenario? We've already established single track isn't the conflict point. How about 15 teen ager newbs on modded out eBikes at a multi-use pedestrian heavy trail? Anyone can ride an ebike fast on approachable terrain. Anyone.

I have so many hours on actual motorized per year (100 days) and (200 days on mtb) - how much more experience do I need to have cred?

Back on point: do you think it'd be a noteworthy impact change if every mtb now went pro speed? I think it would.

I can accept change no problem. My goal is to soft land changes for minimum impact and maximum benefit. You all are belly aching that I don't think carte blanche access is good, smart policy. Agreeing that they are suitable on most trails isn't enough - the mere thought that we'd defer to land managers, staff and community is threatening.... why?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> Why do you guys always try to minimize the scenario? We've already established single track isn't the conflict point. How about 15 teen ager newbs on modded out eBikes at a multi-use pedestrian heavy trail? Anyone can ride an ebike fast on approachable terrain. Anyone.
> 
> I have so many hours on actual motorized per year (100 days) and (200 days on mtb) - how much more experience do I need to have cred?
> 
> ...


No worries if everyone went pro level speed, at least they’d have pro level skills. Y’all think about the extreme rare conditions, not the actual everyday scenarios.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Gutch said:


> No worries if everyone went pro level speed, at least they’d have pro level skills. Y’all think about the extreme rare conditions, not the actual everyday scenarios.


No, that's not the posit. Current mtbrs, all at a pro speed. That's ebikes. Not rare. That is reality. 

It's fine man. You can hold your view point, but it is that of an enthusiast - minded of their own direct benefit only. There is a community out there and when you honor that, there's a broader perspective needed and certainly by responsible mangers who have to consider all of their constituents.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> No, that's not the posit. Current mtbrs, all at a pro speed. That's ebikes. Not rare. That is reality.
> 
> It's fine man. You can hold your view point, but it is that of an enthusiast - minded of their own direct benefit only. There is a community out there and when you honor that, there's a broader perspective needed and certainly by responsible mangers who have to consider all of their constituents.


An ebike enthusiast in an ebike forum? Shame man. Are you pro ebike or not?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Anyrate, no need for arguing. Ebike riders don’t ride full gas all the time everywhere. When are y’all gonna understand this? Oh wait, you don’t own one, I forgot.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Gutch said:


> An ebike enthusiast in an ebike forum? Shame man. Are you pro ebike or not?


As stated, I'm minded on natural surface inclusion just not blanket policy. I advocate for new eBike trails and all in on eBikes for public transportation modality. There's a ton of potential in eBike and eMoto access. Personally, I'm invested on eMoto natural surface trails (ICE alternative) but I don't let my enthusiasm influence objective reasoning on pro/con to their category/inclusion.

There is no shame in being an enthusiast. You should advocate for your interests. However, being glib, disingenuous or ignorant of policy/legal concerns for land management is not a great look. There are people who are experienced, learned and empowered with these concerns and are responsible for balancing competing interests of the land and community; in the end - it is thru this process that policy is created. But certainly the first step is advocating for change, so were good there. The rest of the policy process is no different for eBike than any other user group.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Gutch said:


> I guess Pro’s are a problem


A pro most times will have fantastic handling skills (at least to handle the power they have) that developed as their power progressed. There are 150 pound 400 watt FTP riders who have pro level power from training and or racing road that do not possess great handling skills and can’t use all of their power efficiently on the trail, kind of like joe blow on his eBike in Turbo mode. 

The national level pros should have well developed etiquette. Or at least a brand they represent that forces them to behave. (There are always exceptions) 

200 pound Joe blow with a 200 watt FTP, usually has none of these things. Perhaps some decent handling skills from years of biking if they have that history. 

It’s still shocking and a handful when you put them on a 55 pound bike with an extra 250 watts always on tap. This is obvious when we ride with weekend warriors friends and family on an ebike. They haven’t spent years developing handling skills as they progressively got faster and stronger. It would take months of riding to harness that speed. 

And I am so far from pro it’s not even funny. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> As stated, I'm minded on natural surface inclusion just not blanket policy. I advocate for new eBike trails and all in on eBikes for public transportation modality. There's a ton of potential in eBike and eMoto access. Personally, I'm invested on eMoto natural surface trails (ICE alternative) but I don't let my enthusiasm influence objective reasoning on pro/con to their category/inclusion.
> 
> There is no shame in being an enthusiast. You should advocate for your interests. However, being glib, disingenuous or ignorant of policy/legal concerns for land management is not a great look. There are people who are experienced, learned and empowered with these concerns and are responsible for balancing competing interests of the land and community; in the end - it is thru this process that policy is created. But certainly the first step is advocating for change, so were good there. The rest of the policy process is no different for eBike than any other user group.


As I’ve stated in the past, ebikes may or may not be suitable for every trail system. What pisses me off is when non ebikers come on this ebike forum and hammer the negativity towards them. It gets old, like REAL old. Just don’t have the patience for narrow minded chest beating bar end using, spandex wearing, banana peanut butter eating, hammer head drinking mtb riders. I was one and now I’m on an emtb and viewed differently? That’s BS.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> What pisses me off is when non ebikers come on this ebike forum


This site works differently now, you don't have to go to a subforum to see threads, they just pop up on the opening screen. 
At least that's how mine works.

As far as "non ebikers come on this ebike forum", it's really a lot more like "e-bikers come on this mountain bike forum".
It's not like there aren't plenty of dedicated e-bike sites out there people could choose to go to instead.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

slapheadmofo said:


> This site works differently now, you don't have to go to a subforum to see threads, they just pop up on the opening screen.
> At least that's how mine works.
> 
> As far as "non ebikers come on this ebike forum", it's really a lot more like "e-bikers come on this mountain bike forum".
> It's not like there aren't plenty of dedicated e-bike sites out there people could choose to go to instead.



So Slappy, you don't think we belong here at all???


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LarryMagoo said:


> So Slappy, you don't think we belong here at all???


Doesn't bother me. Hell, I used to be a moderator for this subforum.
But, it does seem kind of silly to go to a mountain bike website to talk about e-bikes and then get upset when there are mountain bikers there. 
Nothing wrong with e-bikes at all, aside from e-bikers who insist that they're no different than mountain bikes, are allowed to go anywhere mountain bikes are by birthright, or insist on saying stupid crap like 'analog' or 'acoustic bike', etc. Of course people are going to catch crap for that sort of stuff. Deservedly so IMHO.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I guess Pro’s are a problem 🤣🤣🤣


Well, duh...


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

I have never understood Analog or Acoustic...for describing a non motorized Mt Bike...I'm huge music guy...need it to survive...using audio terms to describe at My Bike is nuckin futs!

Besides the motor, everything else is the same on any Mt Bike....and of interest to me at this site that I used to belong to a couple decades ago until recently getting my first new ride in that time. I like reading all the comments on everything from Carbon Wheels to suspension components so that I can try and catch up on my lack of knowledge skipping the last 20 + years out of the sport.

Cheers!


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Gutch said:


> “Anyone” can achieve that speed on singletrack? Even a newb? My wife doesn’t ride, I’ll put her on my Levo and in Turbo mode and let her rip singletrack. Won’t happen, can’t, no skills. She would be a noob, no? The real problem is that y’all can’t accept change. Or you can’t accept that fellow mtbrs have changed! Live with an ebike for a year or two and see how “real life” scenario’s unfold.


This!!!!! Some folks are a little slow to accept change..... We are all of the same community.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> This site works differently now, you don't have to go to a subforum to see threads, they just pop up on the opening screen.
> At least that's how mine works.
> 
> As far as "non ebikers come on this ebike forum", it's really a lot more like "e-bikers come on this mountain bike forum".
> It's not like there aren't plenty of dedicated e-bike sites out there people could choose to go to instead.





slapheadmofo said:


> Doesn't bother me. Hell, I used to be a moderator for this subforum.
> But, it does seem kind of silly to go to a mountain bike website to talk about e-bikes and then get upset when there are mountain bikers there.
> Nothing wrong with e-bikes at all, aside from e-bikers who insist that they're no different than mountain bikes, are allowed to go anywhere mountain bikes are by birthright, or insist on saying stupid crap like 'analog' or 'acoustic bike', etc. Of course people are going to catch crap for that sort of stuff. Deservedly so IMHO.


Yeah, I’ve been on here way before ebikes we’re around and obviously was riding way before mtbr became a site so I’m very familiar with the evolution of things and the bike industry finally has evolved into something of greatness with the emtb!!! There’s nothing new or interesting to talk about with mtbs so this is the most interesting subject, I get it. But yes, I agree about the other ebike sites as they are much more into ebikes. But they are relatively new, and also offer a sub forum or discussion for mtbs. Although, let’s be honest, it takes something radical in mtb advancement to get a rise out of riders that have ridden for awhile. It’s maxed out man, but not the emtb…


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Doesn't bother me. Hell, I used to be a moderator for this subforum.
> But, it does seem kind of silly to go to a mountain bike website to talk about e-bikes and then get upset when there are mountain bikers there.
> Nothing wrong with e-bikes at all, aside from e-bikers who insist that they're no different than mountain bikes, are allowed to go anywhere mountain bikes are by birthright, or insist on saying stupid crap like 'analog' or 'acoustic bike', etc. Of course people are going to catch crap for that sort of stuff. Deservedly so IMHO.


It is true that you have moderated considerably over the last 5 years on e bikes Five years ago, as a moderator, you were hell bent on eliminating this forum. It did not matter how reasoned or nice I was, you alway gave negative rep. It was crystal clear that if I continued to post in this forum that I would eventually end up in negative rep territory and eliminated. All was fine in MTBr until grandpa here medically could not keep up. Then you were more than willing to throw me under the bus. My way of the highway, If you have an e bike, you too are evil. You can say what you would like but you still consistently put likes on any post that disparages e bikes or e bike riders.
I finally feel that I can post once in a while in this forum but, the moderation of this forum has always been e bike haters and still has that element. That is why e bike hater threads are allowed to persist. My impression of you is still "All are not welcome in MTBr"


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

PierreR said:


> My way of the highway, If you have an e bike, you too are evil. You can say what you would like but you still consistently put likes on any post that disparages e bikes or e bike riders.
> I finally feel that I can post once in a while in this forum but, the moderation of this forum has always been e bike haters and still has that element. That is why e bike hater threads are allowed to persist. My impression of you is still "All are not welcome in MTBr"


You apparently either don't read very well, or only see what you want to see.
I moderated a forum I was hell-bent on getting rid of? That doesn't even make sense. 
I had, and still have, no patience for people who make stupid arguments about motors not being motors, motors not changing access issues, e-bikes being no different than mountain bikes or that some random snippet of unrelated text gives e-bikes blanket access to anywhere mountain bikes are allowed. That basically describes about 80% of the e-bike proponents posting at that time. 

It's obvious that you're one of those people who, any time someone brings up anything that falls short of being an all-out e-bike cheerleader, starts whining about 'haters'.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Hey Slappy, Though I'm certainly not new to Mt Biking as I started in the Mid 80's. I now own an eBike and trying to get back into riding again after being away for 20 years. I think you have shown neutrality since I rejoined MTBR....even stated your previous bias, but seemed to be resigned to the fact the eBikes are growing and should share the trails and the Forums with Pedal bikes.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

singletrackmack said:


> *although, can you call ebiking a sport? Do they have ebike competitions? Or is ebiking a sport like jet skiing is a sport? Super fun, but not really challenging.


Not to forget that along with e-Enduro, there's also XCO eMTB world championships. For the latter, the racers are basically just the same people who race MTB worlds.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

bikeranzin said:


> Not to forget that along with e-Enduro, there's also XCO eMTB world championships. For the latter, the racers are basically just the same people who race MTB worlds.



I had no idea that there was this much development and/or racing of this class! So thanks for posting. Do they separate Class 1 and Class 3? My bike has a throttle, and I'm told if I want to race the Sea Otter this April, I will need to remove my Throttle to race.....

Cheers!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LarryMagoo said:


> Hey Slappy, Though I'm certainly not new to Mt Biking as I started in the Mid 80's. I now own an eBike and trying to get back into riding again after being away for 20 years. I think you have shown neutrality since I rejoined MTBR....even stated your previous bias, but seemed to be resigned to the fact the eBikes are growing and should share the trails and the Forums with Pedal bikes.


I've been saying for ages that I think class 1 ebikes would be fine on most trails that allow mountain bikes.

I've also been saying for ages that there's a difference between e-bikes and mountain bikes, particularly when it comes to dealing with access and land managers and keeping a clear line distinguishing them as two distinct user groups rather than one is key to expanding and keeping access where I live. I've also been against the notion popular among a good number of e-bikers that mountain bike trail advocates somehow owe it to e-bikers to take them under their wing and do their advocacy work for them just because they spent some money on a toy that may or may not be allowed everywhere they wish it was.

Apparently to some people, that makes me a "*HATER!!!*". 🤪

Those people really don't have opinions worth considering to me.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I've been saying for ages that I think class 1 ebikes would be fine on most trails that allow mountain bikes.
> 
> I've also been saying for ages that there's a difference between e-bikes and mountain bikes, particularly when it comes to dealing with access and land managers and keeping a clear line distinguishing them as two distinct user groups rather than one is key to expanding and keeping access where I live. I've also been against the notion popular among a good number of e-bikers that mountain bike trail advocates somehow owe it to e-bikers to take them under their wing and do their advocacy work for them just because they spent some money on a toy that may or may not be allowed everywhere they wish it was.
> 
> ...


Your first paragraph sums it up.
If ebikers don’t realize they have a motor, and they are not “identical “ to mtbs than they need to be flamed! I think the problem with some ebikers is you don’t take your bike to a 3 mile trail system with families and go bananas! I’m sure there are sh-t h—ds out there that do this. 
Im hoping it’s not the majority of them as I believe most have ridden for years and want something easier or different than what they’ve been riding. I know my body at 51 is not like it used to be at 30! But whatever, that’s why we have options. If ebiking was killing mtbing that would be very sad as I have WAY more hrs on a mtb. Now have a drink tonight and celebrate that we have these freedoms. 🍺


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes"- Obi Wan


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

LarryMagoo said:


> I had no idea that there was this much development and/or racing of this class! So thanks for posting. Do they separate Class 1 and Class 3? My bike has a throttle, and I'm told if I want to race the Sea Otter this April, I will need to remove my Throttle to race.....
> 
> Cheers!


There isn’t. Its class 1 bikes. It’s for the most part just an advertisement and exhibition event. 


The WC week has multiple things going on that week including a 6 person team relay race, with men, women, and u23.

The pro athletes have the bikes there because their teams bring them and they are paid and told. To make social media posts of them riding them in training. (Yes, having an ebike would be awesome to ride deep in a training black because you can do a 3 hour ride and ride singletrack in recovery zone but actually work on new skills.) I’ve done several hilly rides like that with pneumonia. My hr averaged zone 2 and barely hit z3 and I was in Eco mode 95% of the ride. 

The Ebike world has a plethora of existing WC racers, a couple just retired racers, and some enduro/DH guys that say “why not?”. Wynn masters did the first one they had. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Thanks Snoozer for your info...I really appreciate it! Seems crazy to climb hills at 8-10mph and not even get winded....ahhh..the beauty of batteries!


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> You apparently either don't read very well, or only see what you want to see.
> I moderated a forum I was hell-bent on getting rid of? That doesn't even make sense.
> I had, and still have, no patience for people who make stupid arguments about motors not being motors, motors not changing access issues, e-bikes being no different than mountain bikes or that some random snippet of unrelated text gives e-bikes blanket access to anywhere mountain bikes are allowed. That basically describes about 80% of the e-bike proponents posting at that time.
> 
> It's obvious that you're one of those people who, any time someone brings up anything that falls short of being an all-out e-bike cheerleader, starts whining about 'haters'.


No


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Your first paragraph sums it up.
> If ebikers don’t realize they have a motor, and they are not “identical “ to mtbs than they need to be flamed! I think the problem with some ebikers is you don’t take your bike to a 3 mile trail system with families and go bananas! I’m sure there are sh-t h—ds out there that do this.
> Im hoping it’s not the majority of them as I believe most have ridden for years and want something easier or different than what they’ve been riding. I know my body at 51 is not like it used to be at 30! But whatever, that’s why we have options. If ebiking was killing mtbing that would be very sad as I have WAY more hrs on a mtb. Now have a drink tonight and celebrate that we have these freedoms. 🍺


I would 'Like' your post, as I often do, but poor Pierre says I never support e-biker's opinions, so...sorry.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

LarryMagoo said:


> Thanks Snoozer for your info...I really appreciate it! Seems crazy to climb hills at 8-10mph and not even get winded....ahhh..the beauty of batteries!


I was averaging 14mph in turbo mode up hill! I was 175 pounds and giving it around 200 watts of my own power. 

You should watch the regular XCO races on rebill TV. It is absolutely insane what they are doing. 

You have to realize, they are going all out, and putting out 450+ watts constant on those longer climbs with a bike and rider combines weight around 175 lbs.

Someone on medium/trail mode on a 55lbs ebike would be hard pressed to hold a WC pros wheel. They are pretty insane. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> I was averaging 14mph in turbo mode up hill! I was 175 pounds and giving it around 200 watts of my own power.


Thanks for validating my scientific research presented in the first post!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would 'Like' your post, as I often do, but poor Pierre says I never support e-biker's opinions, so...sorry.


🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

FJSnoozer said:


> I was averaging 14mph in turbo mode up hill! I was 175 pounds and giving it around 200 watts of my own power.
> 
> You should watch the regular XCO races on rebill TV. It is absolutely insane what they are doing.
> 
> ...


You was 175? Did you drop poundage? Jk! Yes, 14 mpg on an uphill gentle slope, no worries. They’re not evil, they’re the future. 😵‍💫


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I been riding ebikes for 8-10 years now, I still have no clue what the classes of ebikes are. I literally have to google it every single time, here I think its just watts and speed but then again I would have to google it  now that does not look like a laugh emoji, the only number I say is it goes 32kph  on the forced stop they are more interested in the usual same questions every single person asks every single day, how much and how far, luckily I have only gotten a no light ticket which was thrown out thanks to the nicer one. Maybe I should tidy up my wiring and make it ultra stealth, but there is no reason to do that, maybe if I was in NYC or something or the UK/Australia. I have seen some very fast roadies in lycra, its not a race to me I prefer cruising at a steady state that inhibits me from going to fast, so I tend to cruise behind people that are going the speed I like.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

matt4x4 said:


> I been riding ebikes for 8-10 years now, I still have no clue what the classes of ebikes are. I literally have to google it every single time, here I think its just watts and speed but then again I would have to google it  now that does not look like a laugh emoji, the only number I say is it goes 32kph  on the forced stop they are more interested in the usual same questions every single person asks every single day, how much and how far, luckily I have only gotten a no light ticket which was thrown out thanks to the nicer one. Maybe I should tidy up my wiring and make it ultra stealth, but there is no reason to do that, maybe if I was in NYC or something or the UK/Australia. I have seen some very fast roadies in lycra, its not a race to me I prefer cruising at a steady state that inhibits me from going to fast, so I tend to cruise behind people that are going the speed I like.


You're just illustrating an issue with ebikes, class one are allowed on trails but some ebikers will just ride whatever they have and claim ignorance.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Gutch said:


> Yes, 14 mpg on an uphill gentle slope, no worries. They’re not evil, they’re the future.


You wish.
This is the future:








Have fun arguing with land managers that hoards of e-hikers are slowing down your eMtb experience.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> You wish.
> This is the future:
> View attachment 1968961
> 
> Have fun arguing with land managers that hoards of e-hikers are slowing down your eMtb experience.


Don’t have to argue about anything, why would I?


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Gutch said:


> You was 175? Did you drop poundage? Jk! Yes, 14 mpg on an uphill gentle slope, no worries. They’re not evil, they’re the future. ‍


I lost a ton of weight when I got Covid. 


That’s like saying Teslas are the future. They are already here for those that want and can afford them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Thanks for validating my scientific research presented in the first post!


Contrary to your post, that is only 2 minutes faster up the trail than me at 185 lbs giving it the beans on an acoustic bike.

The turbo lev in turbo mode would not allow me to ride at the same power as I can on an acoustic bike, much because it is doing to much of the work for you. So essentially I was pinned on both runs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> Contrary to your post, that is only 2 minutes faster up the trail than me at 185 lbs giving it the beans on an acoustic bike.
> 
> The turbo lev in turbo mode would not allow me to ride at the same power as I can on an acoustic bike, much because it is doing to much of the work for you. So essentially I was pinned on both runs.
> 
> ...


I did 14mph at 230lbs and I was not giving it the beans, there was at least one more gear there and I could have pushed myself harder......

Again, I dont see a problem with that sorta speed on the particular part of the trail I was testing on.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

14mph is pretty slow and tame on an ebike but that depends on the trail
a normal cruising speed is 20-25mph and going kind of fast is 30mph if its all flat and straight, everyone wants speed every now and again but I ride at 20mph a lot. Just ride behind some road biking lycra thats going the speed you want, doesnt waver or zig zags to much so you can whiz on by him if you so choose. I like to stay well behind them so when the lycra roadie passes people I am a minute or two behind. Most days its hard to find someone because they always tend to go the way your not going.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

matt4x4 said:


> 14mph is pretty slow and tame on an ebike but that depends on the trail
> a normal cruising speed is 20-25mph and going kind of fast is 30mph if its all flat and straight, everyone wants speed every now and again but I ride at 20mph a lot. Just ride behind some road biking lycra thats going the speed you want, doesnt waver or zig zags to much so you can whiz on by him if you so choose. I like to stay well behind them so when the lycra roadie passes people I am a minute or two behind. Most days its hard to find someone because they always tend to go the way your not going.


If you're doing those speeds you either don't have a Class 1 e-bike or have hacked the crap out of it, neither of which is pertinent to this discussion. They have a limiter of 20mph in the US (mine shuts off at about 19) so anything above that you're on your own, and will soon slow down quickly unless you can pedal a 40+ pound bike with knobby tires that fast. My bet is you can't, even drafting off roadies.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

More E data. I decided to ride my eMTB today on a ride I where I normally use my analog bike because of recent snow, and the trail is all chunked up with frozen footprints, figuring the full suspension E would be a lot more pleasant to ride than the full rigid analog.

Given that I wanted more of a workout today, I left the bike in eco mode for almost the entire ride, and even rode some flat sections with the motor off to see what that was like. eco seems to be of so little assist that there were times I actually forgot that I turned off the assist.

This is without question the most I've ever ridden in eco. I never use it, but today I saw the light with the concept of going 100% ebike, or ebike as your only bike, because you can dial in whatever kind of workout you want, and use the higher power settings as needed, like for the short road section with cars wizzing by, or the last climb back up to the house, so you don't finish the ride with a hard effort.

For sure, I wasn't even close to being "twice as fast" as anyone. In fact, looking back at my Strava data, power outputs and speeds were nearly identical to many of my analog rides.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

_CJ said:


> More E data. I decided to ride my eMTB today on a ride I where I normally use my analog bike because of recent snow, and the trail is all chunked up with frozen footprints, figuring the full suspension E would be a lot more pleasant to ride than the full rigid analog.
> 
> Given that I wanted more of a workout today, I left the bike in eco mode for almost the entire ride, and even rode some flat sections with the motor off to see what that was like. eco seems to be of so little assist that there were times I actually forgot that I turned off the assist.
> 
> ...


Do most ebikes show you anywhere how much wattage they are adding/providing at the moment? Or do they publish what wattage they provide in specific modes? That would be interesting to me actually.

The Strava estimate shows 205w avg power for the ride, which I assume is the estimated total average output of the rider output + ebike assistance? In eco mode, I can understand why you weren't passing people tons (and not twice their speed), since I'd wager that ~200w is close to the avg cyclists FTP. Which using some back of napkin math, that seems to support the idea that boost mode (250w avg, up to 550w peak) + 150w plus from the rider, then 2-3x faster (250+150 = 400w with potentially another 300w from boost) doesn't sound too far fetched in terms of predicting the max achievable speed on a climb.

Also, as I mentioned before, I tend to click the "new" button at the top of the page, and just see what threads are around. I happened upon another ebike one that was kind of interesting to me. 

It was discussing the pros-cons of lightweight ebikes (Rise, Levo SL), vs "full power" class 1 ebikes (Kenovo, Decoy, etc), and how to choose which one was right for the OP. The responses were interesting, as most of the responses seem to be talking about how ebiking isn't the same as mountain biking. I thought it was interesting, considering how different that is to this thread.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

_CJ said:


> This is without question the most I've ever ridden in eco. I never use it


Guy who runs 'ebike advocacy groups' admits has never ridden in eco mode, then attempts to make a meaningful comparison to regular bikes while in least used, slowest possible setting. Whoosh.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

ocnLogan said:


> Do most ebikes show you anywhere how much wattage they are adding/providing at the moment? Or do they publish what wattage they provide in specific modes? That would be interesting to me actually.
> 
> The Strava estimate shows 205w avg power for the ride, which I assume is the estimated total average output of the rider output + ebike assistance? In eco mode, I can understand why you weren't passing people tons (and not twice their speed), since I'd wager that ~200w is close to the avg cyclists FTP. Which using some back of napkin math, that seems to support the idea that boost mode (250w avg, up to 550w peak) + 150w plus from the rider, then 2-3x faster (250+150 = 400w with potentially another 300w from boost) doesn't sound too far fetched in terms of predicting the max achievable speed on a climb.
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of any bike that shows rider input, but most will let you tune the level of assist for each setting. Mine is pretty basic, so I don't really know, but the dealer said something like 15%, 33%, 66%, 100% power for the 4 assist levels. If that's accurate, it would mean about 175w average (with motor off included), which sounds about right for my perceived level of exertion.

I struggle with the lightweight low power vs full power thing. At the end of the day, carrying around the big 750wh battery, and having the "full power" 560w on tap doesn't hurt me to have those in reserve, aside from that lightweight downhill handling feel, but I tend to enjoy the stability that the added weight of my full power bike provides.

For sure, my monster truck of an ebike, and my modern interpretation of a 90's MTB, are two very different bikes, but still on the same "mountain bike" spectrum. The advantage of the eMTB is that it can do anything my other bike can do, and probably be more fun in the process. Today's eco-only ride really opened my eyes to that. I can get a good workout if I want, ride gravel, grind out an epic backcountry single-track ride, or whatever else I want. I'm not competing with anyone, so I really couldn't care less what they choose to ride, or how hard it is for them.


.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> More E data. I decided to ride my eMTB today on a ride I where I normally use my analog bike because of recent snow, and the trail is all chunked up with frozen footprints, figuring the full suspension E would be a lot more pleasant to ride than the full rigid analog.
> 
> Given that I wanted more of a workout today, I left the bike in eco mode for almost the entire ride, and even rode some flat sections with the motor off to see what that was like. eco seems to be of so little assist that there were times I actually forgot that I turned off the assist.
> 
> ...


Did someone try to make the argument that eBikes in eco mode are twice as fast as pedal bikes? I know I certainly did not.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> Also, as I mentioned before, I tend to click the "new" button at the top of the page, and just see what threads are around. I happened upon another ebike one that was kind of interesting to me.
> 
> It was discussing the pros-cons of lightweight ebikes (Rise, Levo SL), vs "full power" class 1 ebikes (Kenovo, Decoy, etc), and how to choose which one was right for the OP. The responses were interesting, as most of the responses seem to be talking about how ebiking isn't the same as mountain biking. I thought it was interesting, considering how different that is to this thread.


That is an interesting thread, I have read it. Here are some interesting comments:




alexbn921 said:


> Ebikes are not the same as mtb's. The thrill is different and it comes from being able to loop your favorite trails. DON'T GET AN SL.
> 
> The bigger the battery the better and get more travel than you "need".
> 
> ...





alexbn921 said:


> A 35lb enduro bike and a 55lb Eduro bike will both run the same times or the Ebike will be faster as you can accelerate out of the corners. We have matching segments for both normal and E. E is always faster DH even on technical tight tracks. The weight makes the suspension work better and the motor kick out of corners gets you back up to speed. I don't even feel the weight when I'm riding.
> 
> I'm on an S5 Kenevo. One of the longest bikes made.





minimusprime said:


> As noted above, ebiking isn't the same as mountain biking, and that's beyond just the fitness, suffering aspect. On any type of ebike, your engagement in the trail is simply different because you are climbing with different pacing and using different techniques. I find that the experience on lighter ebikes, is more mountain bike adjacent then full power/battery sleds. *I think the full power experience is fun and exhilarating because the surge in power and the weight is impossible not to notice... however it's impossible not to just be consumed by the fact that you are not on a normal bike while going both uphill and downhill.* In contrast, on the lighter weight ebikes... I find that I just go out for a bike ride and I ride the same way, and do largely the same things... just way more of it and with different routes.





REZEN said:


> I ride 10-15mi, ~1300-1800ft up/loop maximum. So for me a lightweight bike still gives ample battery, and the goal of building endurance.
> 
> However, I may buy a YT Decoy with ~500w battery simply because of price. 7K for a good build vs 11k Kenevo SL...... 4k buys a-lot of shuttles/tires and 400mi gas for round trip rides for getting together for big shuttle days....
> 
> I demo'd a Levo SL XL which is definitely not the geo I want, but as far power, even eco mode is more than plenty for big climb days, yet *I can have fun going uphill popping off of stuff.*





LMN said:


> I think it really depends on three things
> 
> 1. What your trails are like. If you are doing big fire road climbs and then a long descent and looking to do laps, full power is pretty darn nice. But if you have a lot of rolling single track then light weight might be preferred.
> 
> ...


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Did someone try to make the argument that eBikes in eco mode are twice as fast as pedal bikes? I know I certainly did not.


Point being, while some eMTB's are capable of going twice as fast as an analog bike, under very limited conditions, they rarely do, and many riders often ride at speeds that are no different, or even slower than many analog bikes.

Overall, the speeds class 1 eMTB's maintain on most trails is virtually identical to analog bikes.

*So* *no, I will not "**own that Class 1 eBikes are more than twice as fast as pedal bikes". Not in the real world, not the way that the vast majority of people ride them.*

To that end, eMTB's aren't going away, and they should be permitted access to trails that are most appropriate for their use, and those trails are all the trails that analog MTB's have access to.

.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> *not the way that the vast majority of people ride them.*


Besides your own anecdotal comments about how you ride your bike, can you give us some evidence to back up this idea that how you ride represents the vast majority of eBike riders on eMTBs?

All I presented was anecdotal evidence that it was possible to ride them more than twice as fast. Your unwillingness to accept that fact is very interesting to me.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm Famous! Klurejr quoted me twice in one post.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Besides your own anecdotal comments about how you ride your bike, can you give us some evidence to back up this idea that how you ride represents the vast majority of eBike riders on eMTBs?"


The fact that our most infamously eMTB-hostile park district (Mid-Pen) commissioned a scientific study on the impact of eMTBs.



https://www.openspace.org/sites/default/files/20220209_E-bikesSAPStudy_R-22-13.pdf



"While the pedal-assist on e-bikes gives their riders the ability to travel faster with less effort, studies did not provide strong evidence that e-bike riders actually ride faster than traditional mountain bikers. Two studies showed marginally higher speeds for e-bikes going uphill and slower speeds for e-bikes going downhill, however, neither study had a large enough sample size for meaningful statistical analysis."

Of course, their insufficient-for-statistical-analysis is still a much larger number than your "sample"* of one.

* And not actually a sample, since you weren't riding as a normal user would, but rather as an activist trying to establish an extremity.

Also see page 13 of Attachment 1. Citations are at the end of the paper.



Klurejr said:


> All I presented was anecdotal evidence that it was possible to ride them more than twice as fast. Your unwillingness to accept that fact is very interesting to me.


It is possible for me to hop in a Corvette and drive it twice as fast in some instances as I normally drive in my Prius. But that doesn't mean a thing as to if the way people drive them the vast majority of the time poses enough of a hazard to other road users to justify them being treated differently as a matter of policy. It just means that I was being an asshole to other road users that day merely to grind an axe to an end.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

_CJ said:


> I'm not aware of any bike that shows rider input, but most will let you tune the level of assist for each setting. Mine is pretty basic, so I don't really know, but the dealer said something like 15%, 33%, 66%, 100% power for the 4 assist levels. If that's accurate, it would mean about 175w average (with motor off included), which sounds about right for my perceived level of exertion.
> 
> I struggle with the lightweight low power vs full power thing. At the end of the day, carrying around the big 750wh battery, and having the "full power" 560w on tap doesn't hurt me to have those in reserve, aside from that lightweight downhill handling feel, but I tend to enjoy the stability that the added weight of my full power bike provides.
> 
> ...


There are apps that will show and save all of the bikes metrics including output.

Specialized for an example uses a 4.2 x rider output at 100%. So at 25% it matches your output. At 50% its double. All the way to 15amps max. If voltage is 41-33v x15 amps = 615-495watts. Battery is a 10s Lipo.

250watts limit on full power bikes DOES NOT EXIST and is a regulatory joke.

SL bikes are true max 250watt output.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> It is possible for me to hop in a Corvette and drive it twice as fast in some instances as I normally drive in my Prius. But that doesn't mean a thing as to if the way people drive them the vast majority of the time poses enough of a hazard to other road users to justify them being treated differently as a matter of policy. It just means that I was being an asshole to other road users that day merely to grind an axe to an end.


Perfect example. We can all admit that a new Corvette is more than 3 times as fast as a prius when driving up a steep grade.

This thread is not about ettiquite, it is about what is possible.

The fact that some here are unwilling to even admit that much makes me feel like you have something to hide? Why? Just admit it your Corvette is faster than a prius. Your eBike is as much as 3 times faster than a regular MTB on some climbs.

I never said it was a problem that they are faster, but some are taking it that way.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

DtEW said:


> The fact that our most infamously eMTB-hostile park district (Mid-Pen) commissioned a scientific study on the impact of eMTBs.


This is a staff presentation to an advisory board (SAP) and 'findings' not at all a study. Further, it beats the point home that there isn't a useful study as of yet - "The SAP determined that very few studies have been done to assess the impacts of e-bikes on open space. Of those that do exist, some were too limited for meaningful statistical analysis "

I don't understand why it's dated tomorrow: "February 9, 2022 "

But wherever, some people just find the parts they like. It wasn't a bad staff write-up.

Really looking forward to this in their attached SF recommendation:

"Post speed limits at the trailhead and at the top and bottom of hills. Use a lower speed limit (e.g., *5 mph*) on trail sections with greater use or limited line of sight. Current practice at Midpen is to post the speed limit (15 mph) at all trailheads. The speed limit is reduced to 5 mph on blind curves and when passing. Trails with steep slopes where bicycle accidents or speed issues have occurred have the speed limit posted. "

Should be great.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

The most amazing thing I've learned in this thread is that the word "asshole" made it past the site censors.

Let the flaming REALLY begin!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

_CJ said:


> Point being, while some eMTB's are capable of going twice as fast as an analog bike, under very limited conditions, they rarely do, and many riders often ride at speeds that are no different, or even slower than many analog bikes.
> 
> Overall, the speeds class 1 eMTB's maintain on most trails is virtually identical to analog bikes.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Why are ebikes even an argument? Let it go Phils.. move on man, damn


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

matt4x4 said:


> 14mph is pretty slow and tame on an ebike but that depends on the trail
> a normal cruising speed is 20-25mph and going kind of fast is 30mph if its all flat and straight, everyone wants speed every now and again but I ride at 20mph a lot. Just ride behind some road biking lycra thats going the speed you want, doesnt waver or zig zags to much so you can whiz on by him if you so choose. I like to stay well behind them so when the lycra roadie passes people I am a minute or two behind. Most days its hard to find someone because they always tend to go the way your not going.


14 mph on an uphill return trail with turns is not slow and tame. 

Neither of you could do it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

matt4x4 said:


> 14mph is pretty slow and tame on an ebike but that depends on the trail
> a normal cruising speed is 20-25mph and going kind of fast is 30mph if its all flat and straight, everyone wants speed every now and again but I ride at 20mph a lot. Just ride behind some road biking lycra thats going the speed you want, doesnt waver or zig zags to much so you can whiz on by him if you so choose. I like to stay well behind them so when the lycra roadie passes people I am a minute or two behind. Most days its hard to find someone because they always tend to go the way your not going.


No one cares about how fast you go on the road, this is a mountain bike site.

As far as cruising along at 20-30mph on dirt, there's no way you're doing than on anything I personally would consider a trail, unless you're some sort of bike-handling god.
Actually, not even then. Sounds like we're talking about dirt roads, which again, who cares?
Or are you even riding dirt at all? 
What sort of trail has 'lycra roadies' doing 20mph with e-bikers trying to draft them? The trail to hell?

Does Road Bike Review have an e-bike subforum?


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Perfect example. We can all admit that a new Corvette is more than 3 times as fast as a prius when driving up a steep grade.
> 
> This thread is not about ettiquite, it is about what is possible.
> 
> ...


The words you use matter. When you word it this way, I can agree with you. An e bike can be twice as fast. 
In fact there are times when I am going 4-5 times faster uphill than I would be on a regular bike. Like grade 24%. analog bike is probably 1 mph pushing it up. On the e bike its more like 5 mph. Range sucks
Deep snow ~1 foot deep. Pushing 1 mph, riding about 5-6 mph (Fat bike Wazia 4.6 studded at 3psi)


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Besides your own anecdotal comments about how you ride your bike, can you give us some evidence to back up this idea that how you ride represents the vast majority of eBike riders on eMTBs?
> 
> All I presented was anecdotal evidence that it was possible to ride them more than twice as fast. Your unwillingness to accept that fact is very interesting to me.


I have, previously in this thread as a matter of fact, via a study performed by the Boulder and Jefferson Counties land managers, where they found that ebikes overall aren't any faster on the trail than analog users, slower in many cases is what was said as I recall. And lets not overlook the entire Colorado State Parks system where ebikes are legal on every trail analog bikes have access. Again, all good.

You can search back for the links you ignored the first time, if you care.

What I accept is that you posted this thread as a troll to discredit ebikes, or present them in a light that others can point to in their continued resistance to them. I've been seeing this a lot lately from MTB "advocates", it must be in an IMBA talking points brief to their members or something, to use passive aggressive tactics. "I love ebikes!, but...", "ebikes are great....but", "I'd totally support ebikes...if".

and....my anecdotal evidence? You rode an ebike ONCE, and set out to ride it as fast as it would go to prove a point. Others in this thread, who have been riding them for thousands of miles combined tell you that that's not how people use them, and you cry foul..."where is your evidence!". I'd say the experience of people here who actually ride them is far more valuable than yours. Your "experiment" is akin to Motortrend (or whoever it was) setting out to make an Explorer roll over in a crash avoidance maneuver, or make a pinto burst into flames. Sure, they accomplished it eventually, but it was all for show, not at all applicable to the real world.


.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Yesterday I rode with my buddy that has a Yamaha powered Giant and going up a private land logging road climb I upped my mode and pulled away from him going twice as fast as he was. We met back up at the top and shot the breeze for a bit then continued on. Next was some primitive single track through the forest. Awhile later we got back to the house for a nice sunset bike wash. 

So my question is if an ebike is going twice as fast as another ebike how much faster is that ebike than a regular bike? And if there are no regular bikes involved does it matter as long as you are on legal access property?


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Well, I finally did it. I proved that pedal bikes are twice as fast as ebikes.









Let's just own that pedal bikes are more than twice...


Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are faster then pedal bikes. I have ridden pedal bikes downhill and been blown away by how fast they are. So I decided to sit down and compare the speeds of some...




www.mtbr.com





😆


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Others in this thread, who have been riding them for thousands of miles combined tell you that that's not how people use them,.





matt4x4 said:


> a normal cruising speed is 20-25mph and going kind of fast is 30mph if its all flat and straight, everyone wants speed every now and again but I ride at 20mph a lot.


😖


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

_CJ said:


> Well, I finally did it. I proved that pedal bikes are twice as fast as ebikes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like you only proved it for a moment. A Super Mod didn't agree with you apparently!


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Battery said:


> Looks like you only proved it for a moment. A Super Mod didn't agree with you apparently!


Funny how that works, eh?


----------



## Battery (May 7, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Funny how that works, eh?


Reminds me of this old troll post during my Suzuki GXSR days hahaha

First one: 








F*ck Cycle Gear


So I hate fucking Cycle Gear with a passion. I go into my local store to get some tire prices and I know the 2-3 different tires I wanted the prices on. Guy asks if I need help I said "NO" and of course he proceeds over to me and tries to pursuade me into buying some tires that I'm not even...




www.gixxer.com





Follow up (trolling post): 








f*ck customers at my job (cyclegear)


everyday i get some dbag come in window shopping, or trying to compare prices to online prices. we have to make a profit. lucky for this guy in particular, we are local, and he has no where else to go, unless he goes to walmart. i try to help the kid out, because he looks like he just stepped...




www.gixxer.com


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Battery said:


> Looks like you only proved it for a moment. A Super Mod didn't agree with you apparently!


What are you talking about?
Post is still there.


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Battery said:


> Reminds me of this old troll post during my Suzuki GXSR days hahaha
> 
> First one:
> 
> ...


Is that a motorcycle reference in an e-bike thread? 😱


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Is that a motorcycle reference in an e-bike thread? 😱


To quote Britney Spears: "Ooops! I did it again!"


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Battery said:


> Looks like you only proved it for a moment. A Super Mod didn't agree with you apparently!


yeah, proof positive that the original post in this thread was made in an effort to promote a false narrative surrounding ebikes, while ignoring the elephant in the room (downhill speed of ANY mountain bike). Do the anti-ebikers _really_ want to have a discussion about what kind of speeds mountain bikes attain on public trails, and regulation of those speeds on public trails? Because that's where this line of attack ends up.

My post used the exact same language as the OP in this thread, with some changes to the pertinent details, and was 100% factual in content, and got closed, yet this thread remains open. The writing is on the wall about what's going on here, and on this site.

The only question I have is, did the Super Mod who closed it do it of his own volition, or on orders from the OP of this thread (who seems to have deleted his "credentials" from his signature)?


.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

_CJ said:


> The only question I have is, did the Super Mod who closed it do it of his own volition, or on orders from the OP of this thread (who seems to have deleted his "credentials" from his signature)?.


It was all me, all by myself. You're welcome to file a report for review if you think I closed it incorrectly.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> yeah, proof positive that the original post in this thread was made in an effort to promote a false narrative surrounding ebikes, while ignoring the elephant in the room (downhill speed of ANY mountain bike). Do the anti-ebikers _really_ want to have a discussion about what kind of speeds mountain bikes attain on public trails, and regulation of those speeds on public trails? Because that's where this line of attack ends up.
> 
> My post used the exact same language as the OP in this thread, with some changes to the pertinent details, and was 100% factual in content, and got closed, yet this thread remains open. The writing is on the wall about what's going on here, and on this site.
> 
> The only question I have is, did the Super Mod who closed it do it of his own volition, or on orders from the OP of this thread (who seems to have deleted his "credentials" from his signature)?


Holy ****, you are one epic crybaby.

Why not just go post on an e-bike forum and save a bunch of tissues?


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Just to be sure I understand the argument: existing problematic behaviors means we should deliberately add to that problem without concern. Got it.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Holy ****, you are one epic crybaby.
> 
> Why not just go post on an e-bike forum and save a bunch of tissues?


Dude, I'm not crying about anything. This **** is hilarious.

but, just for the sake of clarity, this IS an ebike forum, even if some of the mods wish it wasn't.

.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

_CJ said:


> even if some of the mods wish it wasn't.
> 
> .


Which ones specifically?


----------



## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Carl Mega said:


> Just to be sure I understand the argument: existing problematic behaviors means we should deliberately add to that problem without concern. Got it.


Yes it is similar to someone who argues against wearing a mask or getting a vaccine lol


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Yes it is similar to someone who argues against wearing a mask or getting a vaccine lol


Oh FFS...


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Someone is going to have to square this circle for me: "Downhill speeds are fast and problematic, so we should increase climbing speed several fold". A basic related rates calc would help some here.

Regardless, the overly defensive posturing isn't helping - an appeal to the facts isn't an attack. Rather, there's some deep experience (see the years riding thread) here that holds value. Depending on where you live, where and how you ride and how long of a timeline you are judging - you hopefully have some perspective on the state of things: been some places, seen a few things. 

What I've noticed is that just regular riding speeds have gotten faster, the etiquette worse and a repeated complaint from hikers and walkers is that they feel pushed out on many trails. Enough that we are teetering on some looming and fairly impactful change that is going to mean mountain bike restrictions. So, do we just pretend this isn't the case? Or that eBikes are not materially faster? And, it doesn't take an advanced brain to go "more bikes, new users, faster speed = accelerate our conflict problems". Or we could just go "ah, there's a challenge here but let's invest in mitigating that as best we can and still get access - after all, we have some depth of experience as it pertains to mountain biking that we can actually apply to this situation". Naaah, let's just lie about it all as that's the standard line.

A few people here (and especially in the SL thread) fully acknowledge eBike speed and experience is different. Thank you. For reals - we have shared interests and can work with you on that. But there's some other people in this thread who won't give an inch - at the same time, someone is saying their regular eBike cruising speed is 20-25 and only gets fast over 30. I ask you, how do you dismiss that? Just pretend that wouldn't be a substantial change to what is customary on a multi-use trail? Come on.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Is a Covid reference like the new Godwin's law?









Godwin's law - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Today's ride was twice as fast as I would have ridden on a similar non- e bike, I rode 20.3 miles and used 690 Whr. In fact I rode four times as far as I would have ridden a regular bike as well.
Terrain was flat, no wind, average speed was 7.8 mph, max speed was 10.8 mph. Max power draw was 982 watts peak
Conditions 6-10 inches of snow, no grooming, 32-35 degrees F. First fat bike tracks. Me and the bike was 310 pounds 3psi pressures Wazia 4.6" studded.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

PierreR said:


> The words you use matter. When you word it this way, I can agree with you. An e bike can be twice as fast.
> In fact there are times when I am going 4-5 times faster uphill than I would be on a regular bike. Like grade 24%. analog bike is probably 1 mph pushing it up. On the e bike its more like 5 mph. Range sucks
> Deep snow ~1 foot deep. Pushing 1 mph, riding about 5-6 mph (Fat bike Wazia 4.6 studded at 3psi)


That has been my point from the beginning, I stated in my first post that I was not commenting that it was bad or good, just that it was factual. Some members are taking it as a troll or an attack. It is neither. But some of the users saying that to me also are saying that eBikes are only "slightly" faster on the uphills...... so you tell me why words don't seem to matter to those individuals. In my test I did not have a 24% grade to test, but I believe you when you state that an eBike is 4 to 5 times faster in that situation(1mph vs 4-5mph).

My goal is to get users to accept they are faster when ridden that way, and then move on from that point. It has been a very weird point of contention for years on this site. Just accept they are faster, and then figure out if that will play into access problems or not. In places like Jeffco where they already had dedicated directional and dedicated no-hiking trails where only bikes are on them I cannot fathom how a few eBikes would ever be a problem. On the trails where I ride I doubt any of the trail users on foot would know the difference or care because the places where there is heaver 2-wat Multi-Use traffic the trails have bad sight lines and anyone riding 15mph (the posted speed limit for the trails) would be a danger, motor or not. The area where I did my testing is about a mile further into the preserve and has almost zero foot traffic and eBike's wont pose a threat there.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> My goal is to get users to accept they are faster when ridden that way, and then move on from that point. It has been a very weird point of contention for years on this site. Just accept they are faster, and then figure out if that will play into access problems or not.


 Only a moron would not realize that e bikes could be faster. Your sentence reads like thinly veiled bait to somehow get a confession into evidence to limit access. Nearly everything you have written in this thread including the title is passive agressive. Choose a different tone if that is not what you want to convey because that is how it's being taken. 
"Can be faster" and "are consistently ridden faster", are two different things. 

The real information on regulation is not the potential speed difference, but the actual in practice difficulties. Exceptions should never rule or we would outlaw corvettes because a few drivers will drive them 150mph on the freeway. So you're "trying to establish something obvious" but your passive agressive wording, throws up red flags as a straw man argument. 


For what its worth I ride an e bike slower on single track than a non e bike. I don't need momentum to clear things. I can stop on a hill and restart, letting someone faster by without the penalty if I pull over and stop. On a regular mountain bike I keep hyping myself to push and I am loath to stop or slow down.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I don't personally know any E-bikers who think that E-bikes aren't faster than bikes on ascents. It's quite obvious to me and that's why I have one. Super fun, just like my mountain bike is fun.

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me there is one member on here that feels that way. Your efforts to get users to "accept they are faster when ridden that way" is (imo) pointless. I don't see a significant group or institution that is refuting that E-bikes are not faster.

The wording of the title of this thread was bound to make this a contentious thread (draw some members like moths to a flame), and I believe you must have known that.

But again, maybe I'm mistaken.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mlx john said:


> I could be mistaken, but it seems to me there is one member on here that feels that way.


And every time this thread has died off and fallen off the radar in the past 2 weeks that same user brings it back to life again. He certainly thinks they are only slightly faster and has made it clear he will not accept they can be three times as fast. But he also started a thread complaining about not being able to communicate with younger people..... so I don't think anything that is not direct praise for eBikes will trigger him as being trollish, when it clearly is not.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Only a moron would not realize that e bikes could be faster. Your sentence reads like thinly veiled bait to somehow get a confession into evidence to limit access. Nearly everything you have written in this thread including the title is passive agressive. Choose a different tone if that is not what you want to convey because that is how it's being taken.
> "Can be faster" and "are consistently ridden faster", are two different things.
> 
> The real information on regulation is not the potential speed difference, but the actual in practice difficulties. Exceptions should never rule or we would outlaw corvettes because a few drivers will drive them 150mph on the freeway. So you're "trying to establish something obvious" but your passive agressive wording, throws up red flags as a straw man argument.
> ...


I never said "consistently ridden faster". There are a number of eBike riders who have commented in this thread and other similar threads who did not take this as an attack. Maybe because you cannot hear my tone you have read my tone in the way you want to hear it?

And we do not outlaw corvettes, we set speed limits and then fine and punish those who break those laws, Corvette and Prius alike.

The same can probably work well in places like JeffCo where there is an active ranger presence. It might not work as well in places where someone can break those laws and get away with no punishment or fines.


I started this thread because of users on this site over the years who have made claims to the tune of "they are only slightly faster"(repeated in this very thread) or "they are not faster". I was told over and over again that my observation meant nothing since I had never ridden one. So I got the chance to ride one, and now I know that "not faster" and "slightly faster" are major lies. If I could afford one, I would get one today just so I could make all the climbs at as fast as possible of a speed because it was really fun to turn an uphill into the same sort of experience I get on the Downhill.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I just like not suffering on the climbs, don't care about a speed contest


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> The same can probably work well in places like JeffCo where there is an active ranger presence. It might not work as well in places where someone can break those laws and get away with no punishment or fines.


It's curious that you seem to think that the end goal of laws/regulations governing a shared resource is actually about control of an out-group's (relative to you) behavior, rather than prevention of exploitation of the shared resources, and minimization of conflicts between rightful users*.

* Which by default is _everybody_ unless it is shown that a given group has an outsized deleterious effects on the resource and/or other users.

I think the moderator status is getting to you. This is control freak talk.

By this train of thought, no trails will work for mountain biking unless you can have a ranger posted at every substantial downhill to make sure those scofflaws can't, "break those laws and get away with no punishment or fines." I'm sure some of the more militant anti-MTB trail users' groups have made such an argument.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

DtEW said:


> * Which by default is _everybody_ unless it is shown that a given group has an outsized deleterious effects on the resource and/or other users.


You do understand that motorized bicycles were/are prohibited and their inclusion is the change, right? The onus is on the petitioning user-group as they work through the process for change.

To hear some of the eBike arguments, you'd think they just got punted and booted off vs. being the first time ever that a motorized group is being considered for access in many of these areas. I do empathize a bit for old timer dirt bikers tho, they actually do have a claim of being kicked out - but decades before eBikes were dreamt up.

Man, some of these arguments. I read through a hundred or so public comments recently. Given the frequency, one that must have made the eBike ethers was "it's illegal ageism to deny eBikes!". As if, due to age, you are denied access to trails. Some people seemed to think they had a legal standing and made gesticulations to a law suit. With a presumed straight face, the claim was made that they couldn't ride as much as they were young thus illegal ageism. LOL..


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> You do understand that motorized bicycles were/are prohibited and their inclusion is the change, right? The onus is on the petitioning user-group as they work through the process for change.
> 
> To hear some of the eBike arguments, you'd think they just got punted and booted off vs. being the first time ever that a motorized group is being considered for access in many of these areas. I do empathize a bit for old timer dirt bikers tho, they actually do have a claim of being kicked out - but decades before eBikes were dreamt up.
> 
> Man, some of these arguments. I read through a hundred or so public comments recently. Given the frequency, one that must have made the eBike ethers was "it's illegal ageism to deny eBikes!". As if, due to age, you are denied access to trails. Some people seemed to think they had a legal standing and made gestations to a law suit. With a presumed straight face, the claim was made that they couldn't ride as much as they were young thus illegal ageism. LOL..


As an older rider who has seen the decades of struggle for MTB access, it's amusing to hear a non-electric mountain biker make the, "we have seniority!" argument.

Slamming the gate behind ya, indeed.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

DtEW said:


> As an older rider who has seen the decades of struggle for MTB access, it's amusing to hear a non-electric mountain biker make the, "we have seniority!" argument.
> 
> Slamming the gate behind ya, indeed.


Is that your read? Do better.

Two points:

1) The change is being requested by eBikers. Thus...the process. Nothing to do with me at all as a cyclist at all. There are existing user groups and petitions for new ones. I don't make the rules. 

2) Ageism is a laughable, absurd argument. "I can't be everything I was when I was young, thus unless you allow me SxS/motorized access - I'm crying illegal ageism".

Hilarious.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

If it is the speed difference that is the issue, then the same would be said for full suspension bikes going downhill compared to a rigid bike. E-banner are always moving the goal posts when they don't get their way.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Ducman said:


> If it is the speed difference that is the issue, then the same would be said for full suspension bikes going downhill compared to a rigid bike. E-banner are always moving the goal posts when they don't get their way.


Yup, this tracks. Gravity and human power thresholds are the same as "motors" and wherever that technology will lead. Well reasoned. Maybe consult with the guy here who is talking 30mph on his rides?

Regardless, there is no doubt that over time increased speeds, in part, due to the capabilities of modern bikes has added to conflict issues. Maybe the next question should be: will plopping in more eBikes who can have a several fold speed increase help matters? Or is it deserving of consideration when developing a management plan? Further, should we open the conversation about how manage a problem that we already acknowledge we have. Glad you brought it up!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Ducman said:


> If it is the speed difference that is the issue, then the same would be said for full suspension bikes going downhill compared to a rigid bike. E-banner are always moving the goal posts when they don't get their way.


don't go trying to make any sense of all of this. this is nothing more than a bunch of grown idiots trying to see who has the bigger d!ck...


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> I did 14mph at 230lbs and I was not giving it the beans, there was at least one more gear there and I could have pushed myself harder......
> 
> Again, I dont see a problem with that sorta speed on the particular part of the trail I was testing on.


I don’t think you are understanding me. 

The ebike is not twice as fast as I am on a regular bike. 

The slower you are as a rider, the bigger that difference will be, so yes, for a weekend warrior, they are likely twice as fast on their e bike. 

But you can’t truthfully say e bikes are twice as fast, especially when you have a 300+ watt FTP. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

FJSnoozer said:


> I don’t think you are understanding me.
> 
> The ebike is not twice as fast as I am on a regular bike.
> 
> ...


What percentage of ALL eBike riders have a 300+ watt FTP.... has to be way south of 30%.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> What percentage of ALL eBike riders have a 300+ watt FTP.... has to be way south of 30%.


What does that have to do with anything?

E bikes aren’t 2x faster. Anyone can ride an ebike. 

To answer your question The bell curve puts the average FTP below 250. People who ride bikes regularly have FTPs between 120-480 watts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Carl Mega said:


> Is that your read? Do better.
> 
> Two points:
> 
> ...


 Your first point is actually a good one. 
Your second point shows you are nieve. Arguments that I though were totally absurd years ago eventually became mainstream in the now PC world. Don't bet that ageism argument cannot be pushed. Old people have money and connections. I don't bet against any absurd cancel culture arguments anymore. 

As far as the guy that goes 30mph. I would only believe that on pavement, good gravel, or downhill and only with a purpose built commuter bike. Class three e bikes don't easily sustain 30 mph for long. Heat and battery sag is their enemy. An off the shelf mountain e bike? No way.(there are always exceptions with modified bikes and I am sure you can find one to prove me wrong. You won't convince me that they are common)


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Carl Mega said:


> You do understand that motorized bicycles were/are prohibited and their inclusion is the change, right? The onus is on the petitioning user-group as they work through the process for change.





Carl Mega said:


> Is that your read? Do better.
> 
> Two points:
> 
> 1) The change is being requested by eBikers. Thus...the process. Nothing to do with me at all as a cyclist at all. There are existing user groups and petitions for new ones. I don't make the rules.


You seriously don't remember when the MTB/MTBer _was the change_ whose access to the shared resource was argued to be secondary to that of hikers/equestrians, given the latter's status as "traditional" trail users? You think any of us swallowed that bullshit?

The reality is that the status quo deserves no special veneration over that of change. But time-and-again, people with a vested interest in the status quo have tried to pretend that it does. It's just sad that a mountain biker would reframe the same "seniority" argument that was once used against all of us... now to define an out-group on the basis on aesthetics (meat-powered vs. not-purely-meat-powered), rather on the basis of actual impact on the shared resource and other trail users.

I mean, you do remember that was the mountain bikers' argument in favor of access, right?


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

FJSnoozer said:


> E bikes aren’t 2x faster. Anyone can ride an ebike.


yes
having an ebike pass you on a climb with a few mph difference might be annoying
having a bike come down the other direction at warp speed can be hazardous, any kind of bike


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

> I mean, you do remember that was the mountain bikers' argument in favor of access, right?


Are you arguing that the 'meat powered' riders of today are like the hikers and equestrians of the past? Makes sense since no electric motors are utilized in their activities. Funny how the 'old is forever new'


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> What percentage of ALL eBike riders have a 300+ watt FTP.... has to be way south of 30%.


I do!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack7782 said:


> Are you arguing that the 'meat powered' riders of today are like the hikers and equestrians of the past? Makes sense since no electric motors are utilized in their activities. Funny how the 'old is forever new'


He's saying that all the old HOH arguments against allowing mountain bikes on trails are now being re-hashed by some mountain bikers to argue against allowing e-bikes on trails.
And he's 100% correct.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

L


PierreR said:


> Your first point is actually a good one.
> Your second point shows you are nieve.


Yeah, I'm nieve. Whatever that means. You sound like a candidate for that lawsuit. Wishing you luck.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Why hasn't this thread been moved to the advocacy forum?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

DtEW said:


> You seriously don't remember when the MTB/MTBer _was the change_ whose access to the shared resource was argued to be secondary to that of hikers/equestrians, given the latter's status as "traditional" trail users? You think any of us swallowed that bullshit?
> 
> The reality is that the status quo deserves no special veneration over that of change. But time-and-again, people with a vested interest in the status quo have tried to pretend that it does. It's just sad that a mountain biker would reframe the same "seniority" argument that was once used against all of us... now to define an out-group on the basis on aesthetics (meat-powered vs. not-purely-meat-powered), rather on the basis of actual impact on the shared resource and other trail users.
> 
> I mean, you do remember that was the mountain bikers' argument in favor of access, right?


Meat powered? Man, you guys invent all sorts of divisive weird language. Amish bikes. Acoustic. Flintstone. Analog. Geezers like teenagers. Cringe brah!

Go ahead and bring this attitude and talking point to your next land manager meeting. The fact is all the other use groups are officially allowed and eBikes, being motorized, are not. Absent of the existence of any other user group, you'd still have to petition for a policy change... your weird victimization attitude doesn't change that.

And, for what its worth, the way I advocated for mtb access isn't the way I'd do it today. You know why? I'm much better informed. I've worked in the process. So, yeah, being experienced and gaining knowledge over time has reshaped my opinion and conduct. It's called growth.

You have an amazing capacity for denial of reality - there is a material difference between a having a motor and not. Just the enforcement alone is problematic (re: class 1 vs. class 2/3). That's before you consider inherent changes to speed, user and demo shifts. Best of luck! You should get the access you deserve.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> He's saying that all the old HOH arguments against allowing mountain bikes on trails are now being re-hashed by some mountain bikers to argue against allowing e-bikes on trails.
> And he's 100% correct.


If he is 100% correct, and if history is our guide, we will gain access not lose trail access! We just have to live through this un-avoidable transition. In the meantime, at least have fire roads and moto trails to ride. (those guys are at least open minded to my sport)


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> If he is 100% correct, and if history is our guide, we will gain access not lose trail access! We just have to live through this un-avoidable transition. In the meantime, at least have fire roads and moto trails to ride. (those guys are at least open minded to my sport)


FWIW, as I already wrote numerous times, my position is that eBikes are suitable on a majority of existing trails. However, not all. There are, for all intents and purposes, hard stops where terms of legally binding documents like a conservation easement won't allow them. The rest is up to community appetite and discretion of the land managers who are charged with policy / enforcement.

It's a very threatening position - you can't ride anything you want just because there's a new invention. You'll be subject to....rules. Here's a secret: I don't think mtb should be allowed on any old trail either. The horror!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I don't think further arguing about access is going to impact the original discussion topic about the speed eBikes can go uphill.

/thread closed.


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