# The Good Ol' 26er?



## hvrbreeze (Dec 31, 2013)

In the bombardment of new wheel sizes 27.5-650B, 29er.... So many choices, so much to look at and so many new bikes on the market... 

As i get on my 26er i feel the tires have shrunk since the last time on the trail! But as I roll off into the wilderness and gett in to the zone i am struck; man are they fast and man they carve like crazy! 

Has anyone else found that amid all the wheel size debates the good old 26er is still a heck of alot of fun?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

the wheel size debacle is 100% BS. run whatever wheel you have. I only need 1 ride to get comfortable switching between 29 and 26. whatever I ride twice in a row, is what I am fastest on. 

it is 100% pure bullcrap that you need some specific size. run what ya brung.

variety is good and fun, but 'need' ???? no one needs anything other than a working bike. how it is built is all up to personal preference and available funds.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I still fondly recall riding, I think, Stanley Gap, GA on a rigid 26er. I was totally "in the zone" that day and I was riding with other guys equal to myself, albeit slightly more fit. One guy had an early 29er, and everyone had suspension of one kind or another. The whole week stands out in my memory, but that day still ranks near the top of my all-time great rides. I doubt wheel size had anything to do with it, though.
But yeah, the idea that a 26er "can't" or "is no longer relevant" is absurd.

-F


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## Awshucks (Apr 14, 2013)

I feel owning and riding both a 26er and a 29er is similar to when I cruised on my longboard and shredded on my skateboard. Each is fun in its own regard and each have their own feel.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

hvrbreeze said:


> In the bombardment of new wheel sizes 27.5-650B, 29er.... So many choices, so much to look at and so many new bikes on the market...
> 
> As i get on my 26er i feel the tires have shrunk since the last time on the trail! But as I roll off into the wilderness and gett in to the zone i am struck; man are they fast and man they carve like crazy!
> 
> Has anyone else found that amid all the wheel size debates the good old 26er is still a heck of alot of fun?


Contrary to what bike industry propaganda would have you believe, 26" is BY FAR the dominant mountain bike wheel size, due to installed base. 29er's have only been outselling them (fractionally) for about 18 months or so. 650b is still virtually non-existant.

Sales of 26" wheel mountain bikes will recover strongly in the next year or so, and they will once again become the top seller by 2016.


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## allthatisman (May 27, 2007)

The worst thing going for the 27.5 "standard" is that bike prices have shot way up in the past couple of years, so I'd venture to guess that volume is going to go down as well. Granted, I don't know the bike industry financials, but it's going to be a lot harder for the industry to prop up another wheel standard (as well as the accompanying parts) when a decent new bike starts at $2000+.


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## andyfloyd (Apr 22, 2011)

I still love my 26ers and prefer the way they feel. I like the "other" wheelsizes but i still ride my 26ers everywhere.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

The sad thing about the whole wheel size argument is how the bike industry is using what they shoved down our throats as BENEFITS of 29ers as the reasons 29ers are now obsolete. 


Watching videos of "industry reps" telling us that 650b wheels are 'quicker, lighter, and stronger' than those big, bulky unwieldy 29ers they sold us 2 years ago while barely able to keep from smirking is a joke. 

Oh, and how much easier is it to design frames around 650b for small riders? Really? The same small riders you spent years convincing would be fine on a bike with 29" stand over and a -25 deg stem?

And people believed every word.../boggle


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

I was debating a similar topic with a friend on one of our last rides; when you're discussing bikes on the net, looking at catalogues, comparing geometry, wheel sizes, suspension designs, handlebar widths etc etc, it all seems so important and drastic and confusing, but get on any half-decent bike and get some dirt under the wheels and for the most part it disappears. I'd love to try out one of these new 650b slack and long 'all mountain' bikes, and I'm sure it would probably give me a slight boost in confidence and speed on my favourite trails. But at the end of the day I still really enjoy riding my 26" wheeled 5spot with its old-fashioned geometry, not because it is (or isn't) a great bike, but simply because riding bikes is fun.

Riding a new/expensive bike might make you faster, but unless your current bike is seriously lacking it isn't going to make you have any more fun.


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## borbntm (May 4, 2011)

*The Good Ol' 26er*

Still my "other bike" no plans to get rid of it......2008 Trance X2 pushing 6,000 miles now and going strong..... Just have to get used to it again after riding the 29ers! :thumbsup:


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

turbodog said:


> Sales of 26" wheel mountain bikes will recover strongly in the next year or so, and they will once again become the top seller by 2016.


Please don't hold your breath on regards to that comment, I can pretty much guarantee that won't happen.

What one poster said, ride what you got, they're all good!


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## CraigCreekRider (Apr 12, 2007)

borbntm said:


> Still my "other bike" no plans to get rid of it......2008 Trance X2 pushing 6,000 miles now and going strong..... Just have to get used to it again after riding the 29ers! :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 905492


I know what you mean. Rode my 7 year old Blur yesterday for the first time in a while. Still love that bike, even though I have been mostly riding the newer 29er. I could never get rid of the Blur.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

My good ol' 26er's better be fun. They are very good bikes and certainly old and the only mtb's I own. I'm ready for a new bike next year after a decade or more on my current rides and I'm pretty sure at least one ol' 26er will be gone and replaced by, gasp!, 29" wheels. 

Whatever and wherever I ride is fun though.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> Please don't hold your breath on regards to that comment, I can pretty much guarantee that won't happen.


Well, in that case, I guarantee you are wrong. So there!


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

David R said:


> when you're discussing bikes on the net, looking at catalogues, comparing geometry, wheel sizes, suspension designs, handlebar widths etc etc, it all seems so important and drastic and confusing, but get on any half-decent bike and get some dirt under the wheels and for the most part it disappears.


Best comment in this thread.

When I was building up my current bike in 2012 (a 26", too, gasp!) I created a spreadsheet for each and every component. That spreadsheet included the published weight of each part. I spent hours agonizing over whether this carbon bar was worth the $19 more to save 40 grams. CRITICAL DECISIONS right?

Ha! Not even close. Half way up a 45 minute climb in the North Georgia mountains and my handlebar choice is the LEAST of my concerns. Wheel size is similar.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Great post:


KevinGT said:


> The sad thing about the whole wheel size argument is how the bike industry is using what they shoved down our throats as BENEFITS of 29ers as the reasons 29ers are now obsolete.
> 
> Watching videos of "industry reps" telling us that 650b wheels are 'quicker, lighter, and stronger' than those big, bulky unwieldy 29ers they sold us 2 years ago while barely able to keep from smirking is a joke.
> 
> ...


Bike industry can get away with that because mountain bikers are SHEEP!

Riders will agonize and debate with one another every little detail on their bike. This is after all the internet, where everyone is an EXPERT.

Then they get on the trail where they are just another mediocre rider who cannot actually tell the difference in ride between 26er and 27.5, between 32mm stanctions vs 35mm, or any number of other choices they wasted so much time and effort on.

But no doubt they they get right back on the internet after the ride to tell everyone how much difference that upgrade made and give themselves a big pat on the back for making such an awesome choice.

SHEEP!


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## bwheelin (Apr 4, 2008)

Even though alot of us are still holding onto and riding our 26ers, I wonder what percentage of people are buying them at this point. Also, what can we expect in the next 5 years or less for a 26? Extinction or just a lack of parts available?


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## SuperbMan (Dec 17, 2004)

1. It's a good time to walk into a shop with cash (!!) on hand and hard bargain for 26er stock. You can get a lot of bike right now, and most shops are eager to unload their 1-2-3 year old 26er stock. 

2. The bike industry never really fell in love with the 29ers and was dragged into mass producing them kicking and screaming (in one of the greatest 'grass roots' consumer movements in manufacturing history…think of all the nearly defunct small companies that had a brief second life when the Big Companies dragged on meeting big wheeled demand). 

3. Quite differently (and surprisingly) from the 29er movement, the bike industry is eager and overboard with the 650b designs (and not because of an overwhelming grassroots demand). I mean, companies like Giant, completely scrapping whole lines in one season and releasing dozens of 650b bikes? I am quite stunned by how quickly all the major players have gone 'all-in' with the middle wheel-size, especially when I think of how sullen they were about offering up serious 29ers with quality components just a few short years ago.

As to what is better or not and if the 26er is still relevant: All wheel sizes can produce a great ride under a great rider…scooping up 'unwanted' 26er bikes might just be the deal of the decade.


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## theboomboomcars (Sep 10, 2007)

My worry with the trend of the bike companies taking the 26" models off their lines, new tires, forks, wheels, etc. not being released in a 26" variety. That I am going to be forced to replace the bike I love, with a new one, because I can't get replacement parts. I hope the resurgence of the 26" only takes 2 years, but I don't think it is going to move that fast. Since I don't buy bikes very often, my current bike is a 2002, just replacement and upgrade parts, shoppers like me don't have much of an influence on what the market is going to do.


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## bwheelin (Apr 4, 2008)

My tires should last a while, just need inner tube availability, and if my fork goes down, another fork.


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## Kevin_Federline (Nov 19, 2008)

I bought 10 sets of 26" tubeless ready nevegal pros. A few hoops from stans. And I'm future proof until my frame gives out. Got some incredible deals online due to the trend shift. Built a xtr level rig for 1 grand less


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

turbodog, I'll bet you one reputation block I'm right, but we'll have to wait a year or two I guess.
Just don't take it too seriously though.


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## mevadus (Oct 22, 2009)

Kevin_Federline said:


> I bought 10 sets of 26" tubeless ready nevegal pros. A few hoops from stans. And I'm future proof until my frame gives out. Got some incredible deals online due to the trend shift. Built a xtr level rig for 1 grand less


Your concerns are the same as mine. I am not worried about the availability of anything but tires, and maybe rims. However, just make sure you store those extra tires properly. You don't want them dry rotting on you. Ten sets is a lot of years, and that 9th or 10th set might not be all that great when you get around to riding them.


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## Kevin_Federline (Nov 19, 2008)

Probably 4 years or less. I put 1400 hard miles and 5000 easy miles a year


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

turbodog said:


> Contrary to what bike industry propaganda would have you believe, 26" is BY FAR the dominant mountain bike wheel size, due to installed base. 29er's have only been outselling them (fractionally) for about 18 months or so. 650b is still virtually non-existant.
> 
> Sales of 26" wheel mountain bikes will recover strongly in the next year or so, and they will once again become the top seller by 2016.


First paragraph = yes. Second = wrong.

As was noted above, the major players have already shifted production away from 26 and tooling is in the process of being changed across the board. 27.5 and 29 will dominate, for better or worse. What will get difficult to find soon is straight steerer tube forks that are actually worth purchasing. If you think you'll need a new fork in the next two years buy it now.


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## bwheelin (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm going to wait until the dust clears and than re-evaluate. In the mean time I have no intention of buying another mountain bike for at least another 2 years, and love the way my 26 looks and rides. I don't race and I don't care what others ride.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Here's my 26er.









And here it is with 29" wheels.


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## roc865 (Jun 29, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Here's my 26er.
> 
> View attachment 906416
> 
> ...


Nice. Didn't know you can put 29er wheels on a 26 frame.


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Don't let the bike industry tell you what wheel size to ride. If you like 26 inch wheels, then ride them.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

VTSession said:


> Don't let the bike industry tell you what wheel size to ride. If you like 26 inch wheels, then ride them.


back to say very true

Bike shops and bike makers will always change direction, just go to Interbike every year and talk to everyone driving these changes.

But... chasing these changes is entirely 100% optional. It is fun if you can afford it...but be sure to always watch out for the dude wearing cut-off jeans and a concrete 1950's Schwinn with coaster brake on the trail who is about to drop you, and your 'high-zoot' new fangled wheel bike, stone cold in the dust...


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## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

But this is exactly what you are doing! You are a SHEEP TOO! You ride the latest and greatest (Ibis Mojo and Knolly). Put 5 different kinds of Gravity seatpost on your bike and tell everyone one on the internet how awesome each one was. But meanwhile, you bought these parts you put on your bike based on the research that you did on the internet who you are accusing/name calling SHEEPS! Then you get on the internet and you call everyone sheeps that doesn't buy or ride the same wheel size/parts that you do? Didn't you tell me once you wish you had a 29er for bikepacking? SHEEP.

Don't pat yourself on the back just yet Vern Troyer because, you focus and spend way too much time worrying and thinking about other mediocre riders out there. Meanwhile, you are just a mediocre rider yourself claiming to be an expert. So before you call other people sheeps, i suggest looking in front of the mirror. Dont be so JADED

I've ridden all 3 different size bikes and my wife only rides a 29er (since we started riding in 2009) We are both having and loads of fun. i switch off different bikes from time to time and use all 3 in different applications.



evdog said:


> Great post:
> 
> Bike industry can get away with that because mountain bikers are SHEEP!
> 
> ...


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

I just don't understand why everyone feels the need to pick a side...they are all good for different things. 29" rigid single speed on a modern frame geo is pretty nifty. 27.5" 160mm full suspension bikes are fairly rad for shredding all mountain terrain. And for the smooth and twisty stuff you can't really beat a 26" bike. There's a lot of things that factor into what wheelsize is best for a given application but with an unlimited budget for a stable of bikes, I bet you all would have a little bit of everything floating around.


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## bwheelin (Apr 4, 2008)

I use my one and only bike, a 26 hard tail, for everything. I don't do technical, but I'm finally dialed in with my bike after making several small adjustments. I can't wait to get out and ride when I wake up.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Scott forty G. said:


> But this is exactly what you are doing! You are a SHEEP TOO! You ride the latest and greatest (Ibis Mojo and Knolly). Put 5 different kinds of Gravity seatpost on your bike and tell everyone one on the internet how awesome each one was. But meanwhile, you bought these parts you put on your bike based on the research that you did on the internet who you are accusing/name calling SHEEPS! Then you get on the internet and you call everyone sheeps that doesn't buy or ride the same wheel size/parts that you do? Didn't you tell me once you wish you had a 29er for bikepacking? SHEEP.
> 
> Don't pat yourself on the back just yet Vern Troyer because, you focus and spend way too much time worrying and thinking about other mediocre riders out there. Meanwhile, you are just a mediocre rider yourself claiming to be an expert. So before you call other people sheeps, i suggest looking in front of the mirror. Dont be so JADED
> 
> I've ridden all 3 different size bikes and my wife only rides a 29er (since we started riding in 2009) We are both having and loads of fun. i switch off different bikes from time to time and use all 3 in different applications.


I've been riding since 1992 and don't own a dropper seatpost. Am I cool yet?


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

turbodog said:


> I've been riding since 1992 and don't own a dropper seatpost. Am I cool yet?


Only if you never had bar ends.


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## The Yetti (Dec 22, 2005)

BumpityBump said:


> Only if you never had bar ends.


Damn, I was close to being cool! Mine were purple anodized, does that make up for it?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

roc865 said:


> Nice. Didn't know you can put 29er wheels on a 26 frame.


You can on this one.


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

gravitylover said:


> First paragraph = yes. Second = wrong.
> 
> As was noted above, the major players have already shifted production away from 26 and tooling is in the process of being changed across the board. 27.5 and 29 will dominate, for better or worse. What will get difficult to find soon is straight steerer tube forks that are actually worth purchasing. If you think you'll need a new fork in the next two years buy it now.


I'm having that problem now.

Well, it could be because I am broke and trying to find a deal on a high end fork for about $200, but it is getting harder to find new production with a straight tube.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Sales of 26" wheel mountain bikes will recover strongly in the next year or so, and they will once again become the top seller by 2016.


You're just telling yourself this over and over again to make yourself believe it. 650B is the new 26, 29" is in a class of its own. I bet in 2016 there will be no 26" wheeled bike left (except for in Walmart and Kmart). 650B is only 1" bigger in diameter, it isn't that much bigger than a 26" and if you rode on you couldn't tell the difference.

EDIT: Fat Bikes are still 26", so theoretically 26" will live on.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I enjoy riding my 29er enduro. At 6'4" I finally have a bike that fits me. At our group rides, I see all make and models and sizes. 3 wheel sizes, SS, 1x10 old school hardtails too. Ride what you got. I do like the fact that for me, my 29er climbs better and goes over the rocks roots and logs easier.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Nobody is going to make a 650b DJ or slopestyle bike.


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

The 29er is too big a ride. If I'm going 29er I might as well go cyclocross. 28 would be perfect if they ever decided to make one, but I'm happy with my 26 which I won't be giving up anytime soon. If I'm going to go bigger, I want a 28.


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## abegold (Jan 30, 2004)

Sales of 26" wheel mountain bikes will recover strongly in the next year or so, and they will once again become the top seller by 2016.[/QUOTE]

I'd wager $5000 that you are wrong. Winner can afford a new bicycle! I'd buy a 29er. You have 3 years if you accept the bet.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

turbodog said:


> I've been riding since 1992 and don't own a dropper seatpost. Am I cool yet?


It's gonna take more than that.



BumpityBump said:


> Only if you never had bar ends.


I still have them on my fatbike. I actually have bar ends on a few bikes but I only ride the fatbike anymore.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> You're just telling yourself this over and over again to make yourself believe it. 650B is the new 26, 29" is in a class of its own. I bet in 2016 there will be no 26" wheeled bike left (except for in Walmart and Kmart). 650B is only 1" bigger in diameter, it isn't that much bigger than a 26" and if you rode on you couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> EDIT: Fat Bikes are still 26", so theoretically 26" will live on.


LOL, keep dreaming kiddo. 650b is going to steal sales from the 29er market.

People who know what's up will continue buying 26" just like they always have, and a good number of 29er's are already coming back to 26".

Most serious riders see 650b for the marketing scam that it is.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I have not measured, but what's the difference on my 26er with big rims and 2.5 tires to 27.5's?


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

I predict that in five years time 650b will be the "default" size, but many companies will still be making 26" wheeled bikes mostly for the AM/FR/DH/slopestyle market, and we will still be having vigorous debates about which is best and when the 26" wheel is finally going to die out or make a comeback against 650b.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> LOL, keep dreaming kiddo. 650b is going to steal sales from the 29er market.
> 
> People who know what's up will continue buying 26" just like they always have, and a good number of 29er's are already coming back to 26".
> 
> Most serious riders see 650b for the marketing scam that it is.


I agree 650b is a scam. Most people buy them because they believe the marketing lies, but 29ers will not die, unless you are listening to Giant, the absolute worst bike brand ever. 
26" is dieing, how many times do we have to tell you this? And 650b will not take over 29". Too many people ride 29ers for that to happen. 29ers are best and I have bikes with both wheel sizes. I can't imagine riding 27" wheeled bikes. They're too close to 26" to be a replacement for 29" and that would be a stupid thing for bike companies to do.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

roc865 said:


> Nice. Didn't know you can put 29er wheels on a 26 frame.


A buddy of mine got a set of 29er hoops with his Framed Minnesota. He uses the 29s when roaming in the summer and 26 fats when rolling in the winter. It's a lil weird seeing the width clearance he has with 29s.

To the point, ride what you got. I got a couple 26ers and they're just fine.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

David R said:


> I predict that in five years time 650b will be the "default" size, but many companies will still be making 26" wheeled bikes mostly for the AM/FR/DH/slopestyle market, and we will still be having vigorous debates about which is best and when the 26" wheel is finally going to die out or make a comeback against 650b.


Nah, 650b is going to die off pretty quickly when mountain bike sales tank this spring and summer because of it.

650b is being pushed by Taiwan bike makers, Giant's parent company and whomever makes Trek (partly Giant). They are pretty annoyed about having to supply both 29er's and 26". They'd like to kill off both and just have 650b. Fact is though, that's a fools errand. The people who like 29er's (XC racers and dirt roadies) are pretty much rabid about them and won't step down to 650b. Real trail riders are still riding 26", or will come back to 26" after being sold a 29er that didn't work for them.

Once the fanboys and trendy people with deep pockets are done, there will be nobody else left to buy 650b, and sales will fall off a cliff. I mean seriously, who is stupid and gullible enough to buy into this fabricated push into a completely new and only slightly different wheel size?


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## Shutter Jim (Feb 2, 2011)

evdog said:


> Great post:
> 
> Bike industry can get away with that because mountain bikers are SHEEP!
> 
> ...


So I'm sensing you don't hold mountain bikers in such high regard then?

Okay, I'm with ya. Shut up and ride!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I agree 650b is a scam. Most people buy them because they believe the marketing lies, but 29ers will not die, unless you are listening to Giant, the absolute worst bike brand ever.
> 26" is dieing, how many times do we have to tell you this? And 650b will not take over 29". Too many people ride 29ers for that to happen. 29ers are best and I have bikes with both wheel sizes. I can't imagine riding 27" wheeled bikes. They're too close to 26" to be a replacement for 29" and that would be a stupid thing for bike companies to do.


Actually, market percentage of 26" sales is curently growing.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

"Actually, market percentage of 26" sales is currently growing." 

You got that information where? Does that figure include big box and related low end bikes? When I go into a bike shop, I hardly see any 26" bikes for sale so, except for leftovers being blown out, where are people getting them. DH is not that significant a segment of the mountain bike market.

I'm not interested what is better, latest, greatest or anything like that. I just don't understand where you got your information? Was it from a retailer service that reports on what was sold last year?


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Rev Bubba said:


> "Actually, market percentage of 26" sales is currently growing."
> 
> You got that information where? Does that figure include big box and related low end bikes? When I go into a bike shop, I hardly see any 26" bikes for sale so, except for leftovers being blown out, where are people getting them. DH is not that significant a segment of the mountain bike market.
> 
> I'm not interested what is better, latest, greatest or anything like that. I just don't understand where you got your information? Was it from a retailer service that reports on what was sold last year?


**In APRIL 2014, 26" MTB GAINED 5% MARKET SHARE VS. THE MONTH PRIOR, WHILE 650b MTB LOST 3% MARKET SHARE.**

http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/no-love-26-a-906469-5.html#post11248692


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

turbodog said:


> **In APRIL 2014, 26" MTB GAINED 5% MARKET SHARE VS. THE MONTH PRIOR, WHILE 650b MTB LOST 3% MARKET SHARE.**
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/no-love-26-a-906469-5.html#post11248692


Where are people buying the 26" bikes? Nobody is selling them unless you go to Walmart I guess.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

turbodog said:


> Once the fanboys and trendy people with deep pockets are done, there will be nobody else left to buy 650b, and sales will fall off a cliff. I mean seriously, who is stupid and gullible enough to buy into this fabricated push into a completely new and only slightly different wheel size?


I think you're assuming the majority of people buying new 650b-wheeled bikes are doing so solely because of the wheel size. I ride a 26" wheeled bike (5spot) and will probably do so for a while yet, simply because I don't feel the need (or have the cash) to upgrade a relatively new bike that still suits my needs. When I do replace it, it will most likely be with a 650b simply because there is more of them in the kind of bike I want (Burner, Bronson, Mach6, Warden, etc vs SB66 and?). I think most people are realising that there is such a marginal difference between the 26" and 650b that they're dropping the wheel-size-fanaticism and buying bikes based on what feels best.

Banshee offer the Rune and Spitfire with replaceable drop-outs that can take both 26" and 650b. Have a read on the build threads for both bikes and see how many people (experienced riders who value quality hand-made bikes over mass-produced market-hyped Taiwan stuff) are running 27.5" instead of 26", with comments like "it is simply a better bike with the larger wheels".

You've obviously got a grudge, but I doubt the industry would ever let something like this die after investing so much time/money/R&D into it. I knew a guy who had a similar attitude to yours about trigger shifters when they first came out, he bought ever last pair of XT thumb shifters he could find and was using them for years after they stopped making them....


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Eddie88 said:


> Where are people buying the 26" bikes? Nobody is selling them unless you go to Walmart I guess.


I'm quoting figures that come from bike dealers, not chain stores.


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## GottaGo (Sep 29, 2006)

*I need therapy....*

I'm 55, came to mt. biking late and love it. I have a Giant Warp that I have upgraded top to bottom with 2nd hand parts: a Sherman fork, XT wheels, tubeless tires, dropper post, etc. Its kind of a tank and bobs like you know what out of the saddle.

I want to take my riding to the next level.

My question is do I buy a secondhand top of the line 26" wheel bike for cheap ($1500+/-) and get a lot of design and component value (for example a Heckler or Pivot Mach 5) or hold out for a new entry level 27.5 or 29er at $3,000+/-?

I don't think we are going to stop seeing 26" stock in my riding lifetime....


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I'm quoting figures that come from bike dealers, not chain stores.


Is this what you do all day turbodog? Troll every thread that has "26er" in the title?


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

8iking VIIking said:


> Is this what you do all day turbodog? Troll every thread that has "26er" in the title?


Yep, my guess would be when turbodog should be working.

Over on the General forum they bumped another 26" thread after 6 days of inactivity just to blather on about their agenda. No proof of their "facts". No way to prove what's going to happen in 2 years even though it's never going to happen the way they hope and pray. Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe their actions.

I'm thinking turdodog can't ride a bike with bigger than 26" wheels because they are so diminutive. A Napoleon complex perhaps? Whatever the problem is I'm sure the clinical term is hard to spell.


----------



## huffster (Nov 14, 2011)

Scott forty G. said:


> i switch off different bikes from time to time and use all 3 in different applications.





Iamrockandroll13 said:


> ...but with an unlimited budget for a stable of bikes, I bet you all would have a little bit of everything floating around.


Of all the noise that tends to stir up whenever the 26er debate comes up, the above quoted items are the 2 thoughts that resonate with me. I'd love to have a rack full of bikes and just pick whichever one seemed to fit the venue I was going to be riding today. I have both 26" and 29" bikes. There are a lot of other differences besides the size of the wheels and I do select which bike to ride based on the venue. But, my quiver is not as full as that "unlimited budget" would permit.


----------



## icecreamjay (Apr 13, 2004)

Some of the stuff in this thread is downright comical.


----------



## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

icecreamjay said:


> Some of the stuff in this thread is downright comical.


Pretty much every thread turdodog participates in becomes a comedy.


----------



## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

People are apparently buying 26" bikes being blown out at low prices to make room for 27.5" in the shops I deal with. I still ride two 26" but I'm not so blind as to believe that 27.5" won't replace 26". 

You don't have to like it but that is the trend. Like others have already said, wait until 2014 is over to determine if 27.5" will replace 26" and wait until 2015 to see how many 26" are still produced outside of DH and big box bikes. 

Also, look at current offerings from big companies like Giant, Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, etc. etc. etc. The number of 26" bikes with high end builds are all but dead. That is a fact. Anyone can make number say anything they like. What was sold in April vs. March is a blip and nothing more.


----------



## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

ShinDiggity said:


> Yep, my guess would be when turbodog should be working.
> 
> Over on the General forum they bumped another 26" thread after 6 days of inactivity just to blather on about their agenda. No proof of their "facts". No way to prove what's going to happen in 2 years even though it's never going to happen the way they hope and pray. Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe their actions.
> 
> I'm thinking turdodog can't ride a bike with bigger than 26" wheels because they are so diminutive. A Napoleon complex perhaps? Whatever the problem is I'm sure the clinical term is hard to spell.


Reported for personal attacks.

You bring nothing to the table here, just a steady stream of baiting personal attacks. Here are your last six posts, all of which are stalking and abusing me:



ShinDiggity said:


> Ever try a 29er? Nope? End of story. You have no credibility.
> 
> Now go get a life.





ShinDiggity said:


> Pretty much every thread turdodog participates in becomes a comedy.





ShinDiggity said:


> Yep, my guess would be when turbodog should be working.
> 
> Over on the General forum they bumped another 26" thread after 6 days of inactivity just to blather on about their agenda. No proof of their "facts". No way to prove what's going to happen in 2 years even though it's never going to happen the way they hope and pray. Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe their actions.
> 
> I'm thinking turdodog can't ride a bike with bigger than 26" wheels because they are so diminutive. A Napoleon complex perhaps? Whatever the problem is I'm sure the clinical term is hard to spell.





ShinDiggity said:


> Yes so everyone knows who is stirring the pot on this thread and how credible they are.
> 
> Here is turdodog's direct quote from a previous sh!t stirring thread that turdodog started. Didn't have the balls to continue that thread so has hijacked this one.





ShinDiggity said:


> View attachment 904978





ShinDiggity said:


> Getting lonely under the bridge where you live turdodog? Just had to stir that pot for attention didn't ya? What a sad existence.


I think it's pretty clear who has a problem here.


----------



## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Reported for personal attacks. Try to behave like a civilized person.
> 
> But clearly, you are an industry shill.


Must have been right on the money to elicit such a response.

Looks like 26" wheels to me.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Rev Bubba said:


> People are apparently buying 26" bikes being blown out at low prices to make room for 27.5" in the shops I deal with. I still ride two 26" but I'm not so blind as to believe that 27.5" won't replace 26".
> 
> You don't have to like it but that is the trend. Like others have already said, wait until 2014 is over to determine if 27.5" will replace 26" and wait until 2015 to see how many 26" are still produced outside of DH and big box bikes.
> 
> Also, look at current offerings from big companies like Giant, Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, etc. etc. etc. The number of 26" bikes with high end builds are all but dead. That is a fact. Anyone can make number say anything they like. What was sold in April vs. March is a blip and nothing more.


Still high end 26" out there:

Specialized Bicycle Components
Mojo HDR | Bikes
Mojo SL-R | Bikes
Yeti Cycles / Home

...and more, last time I looked.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Yawn................


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

ShinDiggity said:


> Must have been right on the money to elicit such a response.
> 
> Looks like 26" wheels to me.
> 
> View attachment 906870


And look! Turbodog's 26er is a beach cruiser.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

evdog said:


> Great post:
> 
> Bike industry can get away with that because mountain bikers are SHEEP!
> 
> ...


You're missing the point of mountain biking. For most of us it's an enjoyable hobby that combines the outdoors, good exercise, and aesthetically pleasing bicycles. It is not life or death, buying new bikes and components doesn't make us angry or bitter, and we don't necessarily find fulfillment in grimly pedaling the cheapest bike we could find down the trail.

In fact (as I've said), I like spending money on bikes and components. I certainly have to pay a lot of money for things that I don't want to spend money on.

The debate over the details is part of the fun. And I can tell the difference between parts.

Mediocre is also the wrong word to use. It implies that there is some purpose to the whole thing when in fact it's just a very interesting recreational activity.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Has "Pete" come back as "Turbodog?" If you remember "Pete" you will understand the question.


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## crewjones (Aug 24, 2007)

Alright, Enough with the Willy Wonka. it's just creepy


----------



## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> I think it's pretty clear who has a problem here.
> 
> View attachment 906871


Yep it is clear. You have a tremendous problem there.

*Hey* wait a second ... I finally figured it out. You're not Napoleon .... you're .... turbodog the *Oompa Loompa*. Explains the Willy Wonka fixation as well as the inability to ride a big wheeled bike. So obvious now.


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## bad andy (Feb 21, 2006)

Benefits of wheel size can, and will likely always be debatable. What we are witnessing, is a huge marketing push towards 27.5 right now as manufacturers see a new market segment to exploit. There's a LOT of hype.

After this dust settles I do believe, that in time, a resurgence of the "benefits of the 26 wheel" will come full circle - giving yet again another opportunity for marketing exploitation. 

The point is.... I don't have a point. 

Buy what you like. Ride what you like.

by the way, that oompah dog pic above is awesomely creepy.


----------



## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

ShinDiggity said:


> Yep it is clear. You have a tremendous problem there.
> 
> *Hey* wait a second ... I finally figured it out. You're not Napoleon .... you're .... turbodog the *Oompa Loompa*. Explains the Willy Wonka fixation as well as the inability to ride a big wheeled bike. So obvious now.
> 
> View attachment 906925


He is an Oompa-Loompa. He never leaves the factory so he doesn't see or understand new trends, but even if he did leave he wouldn't fit on a larger wheel size anyway, and I agree with the Willy Wonka addiction. Either that or he's a short little kid lying about his age and experience and is jealous of our new fancy bikes.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bad andy said:


> Benefits of wheel size can, and will likely always be debatable. What we are witnessing, is a huge marketing push towards 27.5 right now as manufacturers see a new market segment to exploit. There's a LOT of hype.
> 
> After this dust settles I do believe, that in time, a resurgence of the "benefits of the 26 wheel" will come full circle - giving yet again another opportunity for marketing exploitation.


It's all hype!


----------



## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

turbodog said:


> LOL, keep dreaming kiddo. 650b is going to steal sales from the 29er market.
> 
> People who know what's up will continue buying 26" just like they always have, and a good number of 29er's are already coming back to 26".
> 
> Most serious riders see 650b for the marketing scam that it is.


Why all the butthurt over wheel size? Seems trite. There are a lot of long time riders that aren't just buying 650b and 29ers because they are suckered in by a scam, myself included. Variety is the spice of life, eh? I'm just glad I have the opportunity to own a bike and ride great trails, period. That's what mountain biking was originally about anyway, tweaking and trying new things. That feeling of enjoyment hasn't changed for most people just because of technological change as far as I'm concerned. Be glad we live a free life with choices, it could be far worse.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

turbodog said:


> and a good number of 29er's are already coming back to 26".


You love to post sources, so....


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I got the Minion 2.5 29er.


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## 802spokestoke (Jun 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Nah, 650b is going to die off pretty quickly when mountain bike sales tank this spring and summer because of it.
> 
> 650b is being pushed by Taiwan bike makers, Giant's parent company and whomever makes Trek (partly Giant). They are pretty annoyed about having to supply both 29er's and 26". They'd like to kill off both and just have 650b. Fact is though, that's a fools errand. The people who like 29er's (XC racers and dirt roadies) are pretty much rabid about them and won't step down to 650b. Real trail riders are still riding 26", or will come back to 26" after being sold a 29er that didn't work for them.
> 
> Once the fanboys and trendy people with deep pockets are done, there will be nobody else left to buy 650b, and sales will fall off a cliff. I mean seriously, who is stupid and gullible enough to buy into this fabricated push into a completely new and only slightly different wheel size?


But Kona and Santa Cruz are pushing up production on the next round of tweeners? Also, Gwinn has been doing some of the cup on a 7ish inch travel 650b. I am skeptical of new things mountain bike. But between the bikes evolving around this wheel and the amount of them I'm seeing at the trailhead, I have to believe this is going to stay around for a while.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

BumpityBump said:


> Why all the butthurt over wheel size? Seems trite. There are a lot of long time riders that aren't just buying 650b and 29ers because they are suckered in by a scam, myself included. Variety is the spice of life, eh? I'm just glad I have the opportunity to own a bike and ride great trails, period. That's what mountain biking was originally about anyway, tweaking and trying new things. That feeling of enjoyment hasn't changed for most people just because of technological change as far as I'm concerned. Be glad we live a free life with choices, it could be far worse.


I feel personally insulted by a segment of the bike industry, for obvious reasons.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I got the Minion 2.5 29er.


Nice. How's that working for you? Amazing tires.

They are claimed at just over 1000g, bit heavy? My 2.3's are 750g in 26".


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

turbodog said:


> I feel personally insulted by a segment of the bike industry, for obvious reasons.


I think you should write them, the segment of the bike industry responsible, a strongly worded letter detailing the pain and suffering you are enduring as a result of others having more fun on their bike than you.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

dbhammercycle said:


> I think you should write them, the segment of the bike industry responsible, a strongly worded letter detailing the pain and suffering you are enduring as a result of others having more fun on their bike than you.


I might do that.


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## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

Ailuropoda said:


> You're missing the point of mountain biking. For most of us it's an enjoyable hobby that combines the outdoors, good exercise, and aesthetically pleasing bicycles. It is not life or death, buying new bikes and components doesn't make us angry or bitter, and we don't necessarily find fulfillment in grimly pedaling the cheapest bike we could find down the trail.
> 
> In fact (as I've said), I like spending money on bikes and components. I certainly have to pay a lot of money for things that I don't want to spend money on.
> 
> ...





evdog said:


> Great post:
> 
> Bike industry can get away with that because mountain bikers are SHEEP!
> 
> ...


Evdog or as we call him around here (mini-me due to a striking resemblance vern troyer) is completely missing the point. This is in part to his opinion of himself that he is not a sheep, expert of all things and not a mediocre rider. When in fact, he is a mediocre rider, a sheep and does not know it all.

Mountain biking is supposed to be fun and who cares if there is a debate between wheel sizes, 32mm stanchions vs 35mm stanchions. Hell, my wife doesn't know any of those things and she can kick your ass on the bike. And shes only ridden a 29er since we started riding 5 years ago. We are now in the process of selling her FS 29er and going to go with 650b. She will still have a HT 29er for most of her XC stuff.

Don't be so angry and bitter evdog. Stop lurking and trolling the internet day in and day out. It is a lonely way to live a social life.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

The Brits don't seem to be taking this 650b thing very well either:

650b no difference??? « Singletrack Forum


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> The Brits don't seem to be taking this 650b thing very well either:
> 
> 650b no difference??? « Singletrack Forum


If there's no difference just MAKE YOUR NEXT BIKE A 650 AND STOP *****ING ABOUT IT. Problem solved


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

turbodog said:


> The Brits don't seem to be taking this 650b thing very well either:
> 
> 650b no difference??? « Singletrack Forum


Interesting read.
"And now they've got away with this, just wait and see how many standards they change in the move to road discs.
They've established that they can screw us over as often as they like and we will just bend over and take it."


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## icecreamjay (Apr 13, 2004)

Who screwed us? They're running businesses, we're consumers. Vote with your wallet and stfu.

I feel lucky to have choices and be able to ride a bike that is light years more capable than what I had 10 years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

turbodog said:


> The Brits don't seem to be taking this 650b thing very well either:
> 
> 650b no difference??? « Singletrack Forum


Actually, that thread reads pretty much just like this thread with supporters, fence sitters, and whiners like yourself. Time to put on your big boy pants.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

turbodog said:


> Nice. How's that working for you? Amazing tires.
> 
> They are claimed at just over 1000g, bit heavy? My 2.3's are 750g in 26".


What are you pedaling and trail type? I have few of the purgatory 2.4's and love them.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

An entertaining read. Been mountain biking since 1990 and rode my first nice 29er about 7 years ago. Trek HT of some sort. Can not remember what model, but the gentleman that let me try it is a hard core racer geek and has always spent lots of money on his rides. Anyway, once I got out of the parking lot and had to focus on the trail and stopped staring at that huge tire in front of me, I thought why the hell have I had to put up with 26" wheels for so long. Have I ever thought that 29ers would replace 26ers? In the xc world, which is where the majority of riders fall, I figured the 29er would rule and it has. But the 26er would hang in there for other types of riding.

I have had no interest in the 650b, figuring they are too close to a 26" to be much different. Although I got say, two local riders that have been pretty hardcore 26er holdouts, have recently started riding FS 650b's. They both tried and hated 29ers, but they are loving their 650b's. I am kind of wondering if it has more to do with the quality of the suspension than tire size. One rides an Intense and the other, one of the new KTMs. This does bring up an interesting point. I think by 2016 there will be two standard wheel sizes, the 29er and 650b, with the maybe, just maybe, the exception of DJ and fat tire bikes. What about everything else in 26ers? How about this for turn-about.....what significant advantage does the 26" wheel offer over the 650b?

In the last 24 years, I have heard and read similar debates on trigger shifters, disc brakes, 9-speed, and wide riser bars. There has been just as many items and ideas that have fallen by the wayside. By and far, the mountain biking community has been and is a pretty trendy group. Everyone has a retro grouch in the group, but the majority are always looking for the latest and greatest. Regardless of how much the industry has tried to supposedly force fads down our throats, in the long run, things that work stick around and those that don't, go away.

In a year and a half, I am going to bump this post. Going to be fun seeing who gets to eat a big ol' plate of crow.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

BrianU said:


> ... How about this for turn-about.....what significant advantage does the 26" wheel offer over the 650b?


Quicker steering
Quicker acceleration
Easier to pedal kick
Easier to build short chain stay frames
Axle closer to ground requires less lean angle to turn same arc
Fits wider range of riders
Fits easier onto bike racks
Fits easier into car or trunk
Wheels are lighter and stronger
Small diameter brake rotors provide plenty of stopping power (less weight = lower rotating mass)
Strong second hand market for parts

These things will matter to some more than others. If you think you need more roll over then by all means ride a bigger wheel. More 26er crap for me!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

turbodog said:


> Nice. How's that working for you? Amazing tires.
> 
> They are claimed at just over 1000g, bit heavy? My 2.3's are 750g in 26".


Yeah, but it's a minion. Best damn tire ever, and in 29x2.5, amazing. IDK if I'd try skinnier. I've ran the 2.5s many times and I felt like that was the sweet spot for DH.


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

I'll be sticking with my ss 26 and buying a cyclocross instead of a 27.5 or 29.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, but it's a minion. Best damn tire ever, and in 29x2.5, amazing. IDK if I'd try skinnier. I've ran the 2.5s many times and I felt like that was the sweet spot for DH.


I took off old style single ply 2.5's to mount the 2.30's. A hair narrower, but clearly lighter. Grip just as well for me.


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## xr600 (Sep 15, 2005)

*Advantages of 26 0ver 650b*



BrianU said:


> How about this for turn-about.....what significant advantage does the 26" wheel offer over the 650b?


Well, 26" is potentially around 6% lighter / stronger / stiffer / faster to accelerate / more agile / shorter in the stays / FUN! over 650B.

That 6% gain in those areas where 26" actually has the advantage, is the reason I wish the bike industry sshls would go back to them as the premier wheel size.

Unfortunately, when they do go back to smaller wheel sizes in a few years, we all know that the move will come with a bunch of new "standards" making everything that went before irrelevant. For them its about making money, not riding bikes.


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## xr600 (Sep 15, 2005)

"How about this for turn-about.....what significant advantage does the 26" wheel offer over the 650b?" (BrianU)

Well, 26" is potentially around 6% lighter / stronger / stiffer / faster to accelerate / more agile / shorter in the stays / FUN! over 650B.

That 6% gain in those areas where 26" actually has the advantage, is the reason I wish the bike industry sshls would go back to them as the premier wheel size.

Unfortunately, when they do go back to smaller wheel sizes in a few years, we all know that the move will come with a bunch of new "standards" making everything that went before irrelevant. For them its about making money, not riding bikes.


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

You mean a corporation wants to make money?????

Oh, the horrors!


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> It's all hype!
> 
> View attachment 906956


Seriously what is with all those OLD Charlie and the Chocolate factory references?


----------



## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Seriously what is with all those OLD Charlie and the Chocolate factory references?


Can somebody get this kid some cliff notes?


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## Dirt Monkey (Feb 6, 2006)

Interesting that I see this thread today…I had an awakening this weekend. I went to demo a popular 27.5 with “all Mtn” geometry that I had to demo as part of my quest for a new ride. I’ve been doing the 29er thing, and it just isn't for me. All of the 27.5 bikes I’ve ridden have that “feel” that I miss. Well, there were multiple brand demos going on and one of the bikes I wanted to demo (Mach 6) was unavailable in my size at the time, so I demo’d a Pivot Mach 5.7 26” I felt like I had just come out of amnesia and remembered who I was and what riding was really about. I about $h%6 myself over the fun level! 

I ended up riding that “other” high end, carbon 27.5 bike like I had planned and it was sweet, but could not compare to the 26” Now I know Im comparing 2 different brands and models, but wow! I was pretty much sold on 27.5 because they all felt great and much closer to the feel of the 26. Now a 26” bike (albeit a very nice one) just spread the gap…I may be going back to 26er status. I don’t care if its popular or not, I just loved that ride!


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

So... I hear one vocal retro-grouch complaining excessively about the 650b trend, a bunch of yuppies spouting "I for one welcome our cycling overlords. everything new is the best always"

and a small handful of people going "Meh, I could ride one. It's not bad, I guess"

Personally. I am all for more options. When the option makes cycling better for someone. There are people out there that 650b is perfect for. I am happy for them to have it. It should totally exist. But not at the sake of a wheel standard that works great for a lot of people. I'm well aware of the excuses that will be flung at me for "One Or The Other" And I don't care. Cycling is a boutique industry full of lowish production numbers and high costs. Keep all 3 around. make everyone happy. the end.

It is clear that the Cycling industry is going hard for forced obsolescence. and it will bite them in the ass sooner or later.

I can gel with a lot of the changes. Oversized head tubes? you can adapt them down if you need to, but what they offer is a noticable upgrade. So... I'm cool with it.

1x10+ drivetrains? 2x11? yeah. whatever floats your boat. that's nifty.

Dropper posts? ...okay... It's your money. It's not going to hurt me.

Tubeless? Definitely perks there!

Press fit bottom brackets... getting glued in like crazy... because they suck so hard... Red flag.

Killing a popular wheel size for no reason other than to force your customer base to upgrade? Dick move.

That being said I ride mostly road/gravel/commuter/cx/flowy camping trails with no jumps or rock gardens.

so 700c, 700c and 700c. We're just stoked to finally be getting discs and frames that fit fatter tires.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

My favorite excuse for the proliferation of 650b is that we've stopped buying 26ers. Well duh! If it ain't broke, don't fix or replace it. My 2003 bike is still going strong and I see no need to replace it anytime soon.

I'm eager to see the sales numbers of all bikes in the next few years. The industry requires growth in sales or it all goes to hell. Maybe Americans just have their fill of bikes or just plain can't afford what the industry is pumping out.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

dgw2jr said:


> My favorite excuse for the proliferation of 650b is that we've stopped buying 26ers. Well duh! If it ain't broke, don't fix or replace it. My 2003 bike is still going strong and I see no need to replace it anytime soon.
> 
> I'm eager to see the sales numbers of all bikes in the next few years. The industry requires growth in sales or it all goes to hell. Maybe Americans just have their fill of bikes or just plain can't afford what the industry is pumping out.


May 2014 IBD Sales Summary | Bicycle Product Suppliers Association



> *Mountain bike dollars fell 5%* to $56M on a *10% unit drop* and 5% increase to average retail-selling price.  All growth came from 27.5-inch-wheeled bikes' explosive growth. Sales reached $10M this May. Twenty-niner dollars plunged 18% to $28M and 26-inch models dropped 24% to $18M.


That's vs. May 2013. Compared to last month, April 2014:

- 26" market share is holding steady at 32%
- 29er share fell from 56% to 50%
- 650b picked up the slack, going from 12% to 18%

Discuss....


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

turbodog said:


> May 2014 IBD Sales Summary | Bicycle Product Suppliers Association
> 
> That's vs. May 2013. Compared to last month, April 2014:
> 
> ...


So sales of mountain bikes overall dropped 5% from 2013 to 2014? Yikes


----------



## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

That 5% is a lot more tremendous than it sounds, and the "due to 27.5's explosive growth" seems more like a short sighted opinion than evidence. even if 27.5 see's a peak in sales as it is hitting it's initial stride upon entry into the market. What becomes of it when it is no longer the Veblen good of choice?

I genuinely have half a mind to start a bike company that makes nothing but rigid steel 26 inch wheeled bikes without suspension correction. mass produced through a reliable Taiwanese supplier. spec'd with reliable mechanical discs (Or V brakes, naturally) and reliable drivetrain. It'd be a hell of an ATB for 400 to 800 bucks. 

maybe then someone other than dentists would like this sport.


----------



## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Agwan said:


> That 5% is a lot more tremendous than it sounds, and the "due to 27.5's explosive growth" seems more like a short sighted opinion than evidence. even if 27.5 see's a peak in sales as it is hitting it's initial stride upon entry into the market. What becomes of it when it is no longer the Veblen good of choice?
> 
> I genuinely have half a mind to start a bike company that makes nothing but rigid steel 26 inch wheeled bikes without suspension correction. mass produced through a reliable Taiwanese supplier. spec'd with reliable mechanical discs (Or V brakes, naturally) and reliable drivetrain. It'd be a hell of an ATB for 400 to 800 bucks.
> 
> maybe then someone other than dentists would like this sport.


I was just looking over the report when you commented.



> Mountain bike dollars fell 5% to $56M on a 10% unit drop and 5% increase to average retail-selling price.  All growth came from 27.5-inch-wheeled bikes' explosive growth. Sales reached $10M this May. Twenty-niner dollars plunged 18% to $28M and 26-inch models dropped 24% to $18M.


While sales of 650b increased and 26er decreased, 26er still made 80% more money than 650b.

So what would be the head tube angle on these bikes you are planning to produce?


----------



## xr600 (Sep 15, 2005)

The fact is 26" has been removed from the line ups in bike shops. The average rider wanting a new bike, and doesn't want to go all the way up to 29" sees no choice but to go 650B now.
If new mid and higher end 26" bikes were there to choose from, and people could feel for themselves the difference in weights and ride qualities, then LOADS more people would choose to buy 26". The stats don't tell the true story.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

xr600 said:


> The fact is 26" has been removed from the line ups in bike shops. The average rider wanting a new bike, and doesn't want to go all the way up to 29" sees no choice but to go 650B now.


No, they haven't, and you're just telling stores.

26" is still widely available, and is clearly much more common than 650b. The sales figures bear that out. There are still many midrange bikes in 26", some full suspension trail bikes, and vast majority of the all mountain, freeride, and DH market.

Did you see how 26" is holding steady? 650b has grown at the expense of 29er sales. CLEARLY.


----------



## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

dgw2jr said:


> I was just looking over the report when you commented.
> 
> While sales of 650b increased and 26er decreased, 26er still made 80% more money than 650b.
> 
> So what would be the head tube angle on these bikes you are planning to produce?


Not to mention, 26" overall are much less expensive per unit. Comparing units, I've guess that 26" is currently selling 3x more than 650b.

26" lost all it's sales to 29er's last year. Over the last three months, 26" has been holding steady around 30%.

650b is cutting into 29er sales. This is not what the industry planned or what the marketing says, but it should be pretty obvious to anybody that it would happen.


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## Dirt n Dust (Mar 21, 2014)

turbodog said:


> No, they haven't, and you're just telling stores.
> 
> 26" is still widely available, and is clearly much more common than 650b. The sales figures bear that out. There are still many midrange bikes in 26", some full suspension trail bikes, and vast majority of the all mountain, freeride, and DH market.


I can attest to 26" being dropped at my LBS. They are pushing 650b heavily. I only see 26ers at Walmart, Academy, etc. At least they are still selling parts. Sad to see since the 26 is still a viable option. I like choices and I think all three have their place. Given the attitude of said bike shop and my experiences with them, I bought elsewhere.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

I have been a devoted 26" hard tail rider for more than a decade, but have switched to a 29" bike this year. I would prefer a high end 26" hard tail, but there is a serious lack of options in this category, plus there are new tire and wheel offerings do not include 26". 

The bike is fun to ride but I do miss the snappy feel of the smaller wheel. If bike companies go back to building up 26" bikes for their higher end models I would get on board and buy one.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Yes, 26" bikes are being weeded out of LBS but how would someone who's personal profile lists "Nowhere" as his home and "Your MOM" as his favorite trail know anything worth listening to?

Grow up Pete!


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## xr600 (Sep 15, 2005)

That is what I am seeing, as news of the 2015 bikes is slowly coming through, (as was already the case in 2014).
When, sometime in the future, I need to replace my current bikes, with a new, mid range hardtail, & also a full suss, I want them both to be 26", but I just don't think that option will be there, unless I am prepared to source old bikes and bits, then, an in future years down the line.
I want to see mid range 26" bikes in the current & future manufacturers line ups, and not just old stock or below entry level bikes.
I am not at all against the existence of 29 & 650b bikes, its just that the ability to roll over rough stuff easier, was never something that I felt I was missing.
If I have no choice but to move to 650B next time I but a bike, I am just going to be thinking about how much more I would have liked that same bike, if only it had come with good old 26" wheels!

When did people forget what makes a bike feel better.
Lighter, stiffer, stronger, faster, RADer!
As for the ability to roll over stuff with better momentum, Who gives a toss?


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

dgw2jr said:


> So what would be the head tube angle on these bikes you are planning to produce?


well, obviously the first model would just be a knock off of early 90's Rockhoppers. with models coming on in the following years that address other needs. a Rigid Huck bike much like the old Evil Imperials and Banshee Morphine would need to be in there as well.

And since we're not suspension correcting these bikes, there will need to be a model with a tall, AWOL/Vaya style head tube. so that you can run a stem without an insane amount of rise!


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> No, they haven't, and you're just telling stores.
> 
> 26" is still widely available, and is clearly much more common than 650b. The sales figures bear that out. There are still many midrange bikes in 26", some full suspension trail bikes, and vast majority of the all mountain, freeride, and DH market.
> 
> Did you see how 26" is holding steady? 650b has grown at the expense of 29er sales. CLEARLY.


Clearly more common at the trailhead? Yeah, but not for long... More common at wal-mart? Yes. More common at the LBS? Not by a long shot.


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## Dirt Monkey (Feb 6, 2006)

turbodog said:


> No, they haven't, and you're just telling stores.
> 
> 26" is still widely available, and is clearly much more common than 650b. The sales figures bear that out. There are still many midrange bikes in 26", some full suspension trail bikes, and vast majority of the all mountain, freeride, and DH market.
> 
> Did you see how 26" is holding steady? 650b has grown at the expense of 29er sales. CLEARLY.


Maybe where you live. Where I live, Its nothing but 29ers (and admittedly, it does suit the terrain) My local shops did not even order 26" bikes THE LAST 2 SEASONS in most of the higher end brands and models. Its rare to see a 26" around here! I dont like it, but that's whats happening. Now I know there are other places where that's not the case. Usually shops that cater to a more gravity orientated scene, still represent well with the 26"


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Well, clearly the market is fractured, confused, and unhappy. Which is why sales are down. 

You don't just kill off a wheel size that a bunch of people like, without backlash. (26")

And you don't just prop up sales with a new wheel size that probably isn't right for a bunch of people, without a backlash. (29er)

And you don't just prop up sales with a new wheel size, AGAIN, that is clearly a shallow attempt to force people into a completely new standard....without a backlash. (650b)


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Agwan said:


> That 5% is a lot more tremendous than it sounds, and the "due to 27.5's explosive growth" seems more like a short sighted opinion than evidence. even if 27.5 see's a peak in sales as it is hitting it's initial stride upon entry into the market. What becomes of it when it is no longer the Veblen good of choice?
> 
> I genuinely have half a mind to start a bike company that makes nothing but rigid steel 26 inch wheeled bikes without suspension correction. mass produced through a reliable Taiwanese supplier. spec'd with reliable mechanical discs (Or V brakes, naturally) and reliable drivetrain. It'd be a hell of an ATB for 400 to 800 bucks.
> 
> maybe then someone other than dentists would like this sport.


Yeah, and it's really only being propped up by price increases of bikes, and that the average 650b is pretty expensive. Being down 10% by units in one of the biggest selling months is kind of a big deal.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

So I wonder, how does the industry expect to sell more mountain bikes when the trail mileage growth rate is so low? Are we all just going to ride in a conga line through the woods and desert or what?

Also, the value does seem to be going down on these new bikes. I look at a $1000-1500 bike and all I get is a steel stanchion air fork? I'm not paying $1500 for a 5lb turd with a crap damper on the front of my bike. Maybe I'm just spoiled? The used market is where it's at. I got my wife a 2009 Trance X0 with Revelation fork and Roval wheels for $1400. It's like riding a Cadillac through the woods. I may never buy a new bike again. There's too much perfectly good and cheap second hand stuff out there.


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## Kevin_Federline (Nov 19, 2008)

You answered your first paragraph with your second paragraph. The same riders you see on the trails are buying the bikes. I have 7 to my name...


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Kevin_Federline said:


> You answered your first paragraph with your second paragraph. The same riders you see on the trails are buying the bikes. I have 7 to my name...


How do you ride 7 bikes at once?!


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## Kevin_Federline (Nov 19, 2008)

That's what my wife says.....


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Kevin_Federline said:


> That's what my wife says.....


Probably the same way mine wear her 25+ shoes and bags...


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

What the Hell?!?! there's other sizes than 26 inch, when did this happen?


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

Funny you should mention that. I sold my last 26er (Intense SS1) and have gone through 2 mid/high end 29er hardtails (superfly carbon and kona raijin) and recently demo'd a 27.5 all mountain. The ride was a revelation. I was just as fast going up due to gearing and had SO much more fun going down I was saying to myself out loud, "I forgot what MOUNTAIN biking was all about!"

And FWIW I think I'd have just as much fun on a 26er FS, but there weren't even any available to demo. IMO on a FS bike there really isn't much need for larger wheels as the suspension is doing the work of soaking up bumps. I know there is a lot of room for argument, but for me field testing is king. Smaller wheels just make it more fun and given that they're such a mature tech, relatively cheap, relatively less rotating mass I don't see why they need to fall by the wayside.

I just ordered a new 27.5, but I'd have been just as happy if there was a 26" version available in the model/geo I wanted.



Dirt Monkey said:


> Interesting that I see this thread today&#8230;I had an awakening this weekend. I went to demo a popular 27.5 with "all Mtn" geometry that I had to demo as part of my quest for a new ride. I've been doing the 29er thing, and it just isn't for me. All of the 27.5 bikes I've ridden have that "feel" that I miss. Well, there were multiple brand demos going on and one of the bikes I wanted to demo (Mach 6) was unavailable in my size at the time, so I demo'd a Pivot Mach 5.7 26" I felt like I had just come out of amnesia and remembered who I was and what riding was really about. I about $h%6 myself over the fun level!
> 
> I ended up riding that "other" high end, carbon 27.5 bike like I had planned and it was sweet, but could not compare to the 26" Now I know Im comparing 2 different brands and models, but wow! I was pretty much sold on 27.5 because they all felt great and much closer to the feel of the 26. Now a 26" bike (albeit a very nice one) just spread the gap&#8230;I may be going back to 26er status. I don't care if its popular or not, I just loved that ride!


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## deadgoat (Jan 19, 2004)

*Reply*

Quicker steering NOPE
Quicker acceleration NOPE
Easier to pedal kick WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?
Easier to build short chain stay frames, WHO CARES
Axle closer to ground requires less lean angle to turn same arc JUST MORE PEDAL STRIKES
Fits wider range of riders SO?
Fits easier onto bike racks, NOPE
Fits easier into car or trunk NOPE
Wheels are lighter and stronger, ONLY FOR DH
Small diameter brake rotors provide plenty of stopping power (less weight = lower rotating mass) NOT AN ISSUE
Strong second hand market for parts, ??

These things will matter to some more than others. If you think you need more roll over then by all means ride a bigger wheel. More 26er crap for me![/QUOTE]


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

deadgoat said:


> Quicker steering NOPE
> Quicker acceleration NOPE
> Easier to pedal kick WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?
> Easier to build short chain stay frames, WHO CARES
> ...


So you don't know what a pedal kick is but you have a strong opinion of wheel sizes... Interesting.

Pedal strikes have more to do with BB height than axle height. There is a difference.


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## justin_amador (Dec 2, 2009)

mik_git said:


> What the Hell?!?! there's other sizes than 26 inch, when did this happen?


About the same time all wheels smaller than 27.5" stopped turning.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

mik_git said:


> What the Hell?!?! there's other sizes than 26 inch, when did this happen?


Its like we're in a parallel universe or something.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Just came back from the LBS. Went in looking for a new rear tire for my 26'r. They had TWO 26" mtb tires in stock. TWO!! All the others were 29'rs!! 

Now, I know a bunch of knee-jerk reactions would be to respond "go to another LBS". This isn't the case. The shop is cool and can have whatever you want ordered & in stock in a few days. 

I asked why only 2 26" tires in stock, their response was most of the high end bikes being sold are 29'rs. Okay I get that. Those who already run 26" are part of club and/or sponsored and get their tires direct for cheap (from Maxxis, etc.). Okay. I get that too. 

What I really think is contributing to the "outdating" of the 26" bike are manufacturers. Its new, buy it! The sales floors of decent mtbs are 80-90% 29'rs. If you haven't bought a new complete bike in the last 3-4 years, the technology in frame design, components, and shocks has changed TREMENDOUSLY. If you've been on a 26" bike since 2009 and then rode a 2014 29'r, you'd be blown away by the new technology but you'd mistakenly contribute all the progress to the bike being a 29'r. Anyway, that's my $.02. I think this contributes to the situation. FWIW, I've ridden a 29'r a bunch of times and the wheel size wasn't enough to make me reconsider. I'm currently riding a 2 week old new 26" dualie which I believe is the best bike I've ever ridden in my life--and isn't that the point? Ride what you brought, yes. But if you buy any new bike, shouldn't it be the best you've ever ridden? 

Ride happy!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bingemtbr said:


> Just came back from the LBS. Went in looking for a new rear tire for my 26'r. They had TWO 26" mtb tires in stock. TWO!! All the others were 29'rs!!
> 
> Now, I know a bunch of knee-jerk reactions would be to respond "go to another LBS". This isn't the case. The shop is cool and can have whatever you want ordered & in stock in a few days.
> 
> ...


Stuff hasn't changed much since 2009. That's part of why the industry has to prop up sales with these new wheel sizes. Many, many people are just fine on 2009 bikes or even older.


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## waffleBeast (Jul 5, 2010)

While you guys are in here beating dead horses, lets talk about clips vs flats.


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## worrptangl (Jun 23, 2009)

I love my Kona Unit and it's a 29er but if I could have the choice between having my unit built up as it currently is or have my Stumpjumper HT 26er back. I would take my stumpy back. I loved that bike too bad it was stolen! I have been more curious about 650B than 29ers. I decided to go with a 29er but still thinking of getting a Surly 1x1 frame and building it up. I want to demo a 650b though. 

I don't believe that any size is better than the other. Just better for rider preference.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

waffleBeast said:


> While you guys are in here beating dead horses, lets talk about clips vs flats.


I like 'em both, but I'm rather particular about chain lube. DuMonde Tech, FTW!


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

How about thumb shifters vs triggers? DH vs XC? Blonde vs brunette? Republican vs democrat? Or maybe we could finally settle the score on how much cooler mountain bikers are than those drugged up lycra loving roadies?


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## andyfloyd (Apr 22, 2011)

I dont know about you guys, but I plan to have one of every size. I have a FS 26er, a hardtail 26er, a hardtail carbon 29er, and ill build up a carbon 27.5" next year with some taxes and whatnot. I say they all have their place. I actually think the fun factor on a 26er is great, those bikes like to jump and be tossed around. The 29er is fun in its own way because it just bulldozes over stuff...its fast and going fast is fun. The 27.5 should combine a little of both and thats good too. I am sad to see companies abandoning the 26er but Ill just stockpile parts for mine and they will run forever. Ride on!


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

Went out for a ride earlier and I must say, I really like my 26er. I'm finally dialed in with the comfort, the wheels, and I couldn't be happier.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Eddie88 said:


> Went out for a ride earlier and I must say, I really like my 26er. I'm finally dialed in with the comfort, the wheels, and I couldn't be happier.


I should have lubed my chain. Nothing like a dry drivetrain to turn an otherwise GREAT experience into one that borders on mediocre.

Did I mention that DuMonde Tech is probably the best lube for my particular riding conditions?


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

Tres Bottelas said:


> I should have lubed my chain. Nothing like a dry drivetrain to turn an otherwise GREAT experience into one that borders on mediocre.
> 
> Did I mention that DuMonde Tech is probably the best lube for my particular riding conditions?


Better than White Lightning?


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Eddie88 said:


> Better than White Lightning?


Yes. It does not clump, and sheds really well. I haven't cleaned a chain in a very long time, and have gotten much longer life from my drivetrain as a result. I usually mix half yellow (lite) and half blue (original), but you can fine tune the ratios for your conditions. During the winter, I will usually go with a little more blue.


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

Tres Bottelas said:


> Yes. It does not clump, and sheds really well. I haven't cleaned a chain in a very long time, and have gotten much longer life from my drivetrain as a result. I usually mix half yellow (lite) and half blue (original), but you can fine tune the ratios for your conditions. During the winter, I will usually go with a little more blue.


I'll have to give it a try after I use up what I have. I'm going to send a bottle of the lite to my brother out in AZ. It says the lite is good for dry climates.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Eddie88 said:


> I'll have to give it a try after I use up what I have. I'm going to send a bottle of the lite to my brother out in AZ. It says the lite is good for dry climates.


It is, but it doesn't last long. The trade-off is that everything stays clean.


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## waffleBeast (Jul 5, 2010)

This thread lost all of its dumb nastiness so... Du Monde Tech = Catpiss! Real honchos ride Rock n' Roll Lube!


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## 08_Yukon hard tail (Sep 14, 2008)

CannondaleF9 said:


> You're just telling yourself this over and over again to make yourself believe it. 650B is the new 26, 29" is in a class of its own. I bet in 2016 there will be no 26" wheeled bike left (except for in Walmart and Kmart). 650B is only 1" bigger in diameter, it isn't that much bigger than a 26" and if you rode on you couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> EDIT: Fat Bikes are still 26", so theoretically 26" will live on.


I had the same perception with my XTC 26er when I saw the new Giant XTC 27.5 @ Sea Otter. I compared side by side and they almost the same size. I'm running Conti SS 2.2 front and 2.0 on my 26er and I could hardly tell the difference. I remember thinking in my head, there's no way the 27.5 can perform so much better that my 26er. Fast forward I demoed 2014 Giant XTC team 0 27.5 from Giant and I was blown away how fast it was. it turns and accelerate like a 26 but it rolls over rocks & roots like a 29. Oh by the way her name was Nancy and I don't mind riding her again.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

08_Yukon hard tail said:


> I had the same perception with my XTC 26er when I saw the new Giant XTC 27.5 @ Sea Otter. I compared side by side and they almost the same size. I'm running Conti SS 2.2 front and 2.0 on my 26er and I could hardly tell the difference. I remember thinking in my head, there's no way the 27.5 can perform so much better that my 26er. Fast forward I demoed 2014 Giant XTC team 0 27.5 from Giant and I was blown away how fast it was. it turns and accelerate like a 26 but it rolls over rocks & roots like a 29. Oh by the way her name was Nancy and I don't mind riding her again.


Was there any difference between the two models, other than slightly bigger wheels?


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## 08_Yukon hard tail (Sep 14, 2008)

Tres Bottelas said:


> Was there any difference between the two models, other than slightly bigger wheels?


Nancy (2014 Giant XTC Team 0) 
Full carbon frame
XX1 drive train
Giant carbon wheels
I weight her @ 20.8 pounds

My bike 08 XTC AO
Xtr drive train
Easton wheelset etc.etc.
Weight 21 pounds flat

They about even in weight but I find 27.5 ride so much faster and better in every way.
I also own a 29er composite 0.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

08_Yukon hard tail said:


> Nancy (2014 Giant XTC Team 0)
> Full carbon frame
> XX1 drive train
> Giant carbon wheels
> ...


Thanks.


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## Kevin_Federline (Nov 19, 2008)

08_Yukon hard tail said:


> Nancy (2014 Giant XTC Team 0)
> Full carbon frame
> XX1 drive train
> Giant carbon wheels
> ...


Pretty awesome stable you have. How does your 9er ride compared to the 27.5 rig?


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

hvrbreeze said:


> Has anyone else found that amid all the wheel size debates the good old 26er is still a heck of alot of fun?


All I have ridden is 26 and I love it. I pay no attention to wheel sizes. You can ride over anything on a 26 with the right skill level. I may be old school (started mtb in 1992) but I feel like 29er is almost cheating. Less agility than 26 and better over bumps. It doesn't sound challenging to me. Disclaimer: Never ridden a 29er.

Maybe I'm intolerable of change, I don't know.


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## 08_Yukon hard tail (Sep 14, 2008)

Kevin_Federline said:


> Pretty awesome stable you have. How does your 9er ride compared to the 27.5 rig?


29er is very stable and fast once you get it rolling but the 27.5 is more nimble with explosive acceleration. You can do late braking on switchbacks and be able to turn quickly. My 29er weights @21.4 setup 1x10.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

blackitout said:


> All I have ridden is 26 and I love it. I pay no attention to wheel sizes. You can ride over anything on a 26 with the right skill level. I may be old school (started mtb in 1992) but I feel like 29er is almost cheating. Less agility than 26 and better over bumps. It doesn't sound challenging to me. Disclaimer: Never ridden a 29er.
> 
> Maybe I'm intolerable of change, I don't know.


29'ers are challenging in their own way. 
I like both wheel sizes for different things.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

blackitout said:


> All I have ridden is 26 and I love it. I pay no attention to wheel sizes. You can ride over anything on a 26 with the right skill level. I may be old school (started mtb in 1992) but I feel like 29er is almost cheating. Less agility than 26 and better over bumps. It doesn't sound challenging to me. Disclaimer: Never ridden a 29er.
> 
> Maybe I'm intolerable of change, I don't know.


Do you ride rigid singlespeed? Because gears and suspension can also be considered cheating depending on who you ask...


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

8iking VIIking said:


> Do you ride rigid singlespeed? Because gears and suspension can also be considered cheating depending on who you ask...


I don't think 29er's are cheating, I think they are a hinderance for technical riding!!!


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I don't think 29er's are cheating, I think they are a hinderance for technical riding!!!


Which again you are wrong. Santa Cruz Tallboy 29er proves itself on Vancouver trail | Bike Magic this article and video proves that 29ers are as capable as 26ers on technical trails.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Which again you are wrong. Santa Cruz Tallboy 29er proves itself on Vancouver trail | Bike Magic this article and video proves that 29ers are as capable as 26ers on technical trails.


Finally! There's proof!!!


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

8iking VIIking said:


> Do you ride rigid singlespeed? Because gears and suspension can also be considered cheating depending on who you ask...


This is a good point. I haven't ridden rigid single speed in a very long time. Part of the fun for me is finding ways over technical parts on my lowly 26 inch wheels.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Which again you are wrong. Santa Cruz Tallboy 29er proves itself on Vancouver trail | Bike Magic this article and video proves that 29ers are as capable as 26ers on technical trails.


Why does everybody trying to ride tech on a 29er look like they are dancing on stilts....?






Tallboy's have been on heavy discount / closeut for many months.....I guess they aren't as popular as you would like us to believe.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

turbodog said:


> Why does everybody trying to ride tech on a 29er look like they are dancing on stilts....?


Probably because they're "trying."

Do or do not do. There is no try.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Why does everybody trying to ride tech on a 29er look like they are dancing on stilts....?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're popular enough that SC made a Tallboy 2....maybe that's why the originals are on closeout?

BTW, did you see that the big S is abandoning ship on 26? How many tears were shed when you heard that news?


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## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

You'll never guess what size wheel this is


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Tallboy's have been on heavy discount / closeut for many months.....I guess they aren't as popular as you would like us to believe.


Well they still make Tallboys. The same can't be said for most Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, and Scott 26ers save the basic hardtails and a few Freeride and Downhill bikes.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

You guys are really stretching on this technical riding thing. I can tell you, every time I've ridden with people on 29ers, I've very clearly outridden them, both climbing and decending. I was riding, while they were walking - especially on the climbs. These are experienced riders too.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> You guys are really stretching on this technical riding thing. I can tell you, every time I've ridden with people on 29ers, I've very clearly outridden them, both climbing and decending. I was riding, while they were walking - especially on the climbs. These are experienced riders too.


That's just a lie. I rode both a 26er and a 29er on the same technical climb. I made it on my 29er and once because of a bad line choice I had to walk my 26er but every time I rode my 29er up it I made it.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

I owned a Niner Air 9 for a little over 18 months. I recently sold it because I just could not come to grips with the way the bike handled. I think it's mostly due to getting my weight in the right position on the bike. For this reason, I never saw that the 29 was any faster than my 26, but I did see that I was burning more energy riding the 29 when compared to the 26.

A 27.5 Anthem has replaced the Niner. I still have my 2003 HT 26" bike and ride it regularly.


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## Eddie88 (Jun 21, 2014)

This 26, 27.5, 29 is way too confusing for me. I can't make up my mind so I'm going to wait until they come out with the 28 or 28 1/4. This will make everything ok in the bike world.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> That's just a lie. I rode both a 26er and a 29er on the same technical climb. I made it on my 29er and once because of a bad line choice I had to walk my 26er but every time I rode my 29er up it I made it.


Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?

I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


You owe me a monitor. I just spit beer all over it.

Maybe you could yell upstairs and ask Mom for the money.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


Well I have a 100mm hardtail with very grippy tyres. I could outclimb you with my hardtail and any other 10 or 11 speed 29er out there.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

eddie88 said:


> this 26, 27.5, 29 is way too confusing for me. I can't make up my mind so i'm going to wait until they come out with the 28 or 28 1/4. This will make everything ok in the bike world.


brilliant!


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## abegold (Jan 30, 2004)

Ride a Turner Burner 26. It handles great and love it. But most of my friends leave me in the dust on their 29ers, they are faster. Can't see how at 27b is faster than a 29er but I can see how it would out handle it in really curvy terrain.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

turbodog said:


> You guys are really stretching on this technical riding thing. I can tell you, every time I've ridden with people on 29ers, I've very clearly outridden them, both climbing and decending. I was riding, while they were walking - especially on the climbs. These are experienced riders too.


What do you consider to be technical anyhow? I rode most of last season on a 29er, raced BME on it and it never really hindered my ability to go where I wanted. I didn't care for how it jumped too much, and really would have like more travel, but I rode everything on that that I can on my 26... If there's a move I can't conquer, 99% chance that has to do with my mental state and ability, and about 1% or less has to do with the wheel size.

I believe people tend to put too much stock in wheel size, and not enough their own ability. It's not the wheel size, it's the rider....


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## huffster (Nov 14, 2011)

Can somebody please remind me how to unsubscribe from a thread?


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


Say you came across your evil twin (or in your case, good twin), you're saying you could outclimb him if he was on....for instance....an uber light carbon FS 29er? You can't be serious....


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

And you never answered my question turbodong, how much did you cry when your boy Mikey S decided to pull the plug on 26?


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

Both of my bikes are 26'ers, but I am not pushing back against the 650B revolution. My next bike is likely to be a 650B and I won't cry about it.


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

8iking VIIking said:


> Say you came across your evil twin (or in your case, good twin), you're saying you could outclimb him if he was on....for instance....an uber light carbon FS 29er? You can't be serious....


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Well I have a 100mm hardtail with very grippy tyres. I could outclimb you with my hardtail and any other 10 or 11 speed 29er out there.


Maybe on a dirt road, but not on anything remotely technical. :thumbsup:


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Scott forty G. said:


> You'll never guess what size wheel this is


lol, I can tell exactly what size wheel that is. It's not quite as big as a 29'er and not quite as nimble as a 26".


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Eddie88 said:


> This 26, 27.5, 29 is way too confusing for me. I can't make up my mind so I'm going to wait until they come out with the 28 or 28 1/4. This will make everything ok in the bike world.


You will get your wish when they finally make a high volume 27.5" tire.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


With just a single sentence, you have rendered the previous 872 posts completely useless.

Next time throw in a little dirt roadie humor if you want people to laugh WITH you, instead of at you.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

tiSS'er said:


> Both of my bikes are 26'ers, but I am not pushing back against the 650B revolution. My next bike is likely to be a 650B and I won't cry about it.


Revolution? That just means it went full circle, doesn't it?


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


He's fast, way faster than you. Way faster than you and you too.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

You should be a pro xc racer turdo, or a pro downhiller for that matter, since you're the best at both!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Tres Bottelas said:


> With just a single sentence, you have rendered the previous 872 posts completely useless.
> 
> Next time throw in a little dirt roadie humor if you want people to laugh WITH you, instead of at you.


Not sure you're following my point. All I'm saying is that my setup is massively superior for technical climbing (and decending) vs. the large majority of 29er's out on the trails. While I am a very good climber, I'm only at a moderate fitness level currently. Big part of it is the bike.

Futhermore, people will argue that you can setup 29er like my bike or any all mountain 26", and that's really the difference. But you can't really.

It's tough to get anything in a 29er with over 5" of travel, there's only a few models and they are pretty new and EXPENSIVE. I paid $350 (used) for my frame several years ago. Trust me, there is a pretty big difference between 4.5" of travel and 7.5".....like 3".

There is a ten percent weight difference for the larger 29er wheels vs. 26". What is borderline uncomfortable to pedal uphill on a 26" AM bike with an agressive tire/rim setup, becomes fully uncomfortable on a 29er. You're talking about nearly a full pound heavier in the wheels on the 29er, this costs you not only aceleration but also the nimbleness which is extremely important for technical cimbing.

So, the 29er rolls over stuff better? Great. But there is a LONG list of reasons why VAST majority of 29er's are short travel FS or HT, with nearly semi-slick tires. Better rollover simply isn't enough to let them keep up with a 26" trail/AM bike on technical terrain, including climbing.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

turbodog said:


> Cool man. How much rear suspension travel do you have?
> 
> I have almost 7.5" of very active travel with no pedal feedback, and very grippy tires. Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


you must get laid a lot bro

as for Tres Bottelas, ignore him (or her, not sure of gender) as you probably know yourself, a small penis has many a negative consquence in attitude


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

KevinGT said:


> The sad thing about the whole wheel size argument is how the bike industry is using what they shoved down our throats as BENEFITS of 29ers as the reasons 29ers are now obsolete.
> 
> Watching videos of "industry reps" telling us that 650b wheels are 'quicker, lighter, and stronger' than those big, bulky unwieldy 29ers they sold us 2 years ago while barely able to keep from smirking is a joke.
> 
> ...


Isn't that the truth. I'm glad I still have all my vintage 26" bikes.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

FoShizzle said:


> you must get laid a lot bro
> 
> as for Tres Bottelas, ignore him (or her, not sure of gender) as you probably know yourself, a small penis has many a negative consquence in attitude


At least there was humor in that post of his you quoted. < one big grin >

Fo, the thought of you imagining my gender and my nethers is somewhere between a compliment and flat out creepy.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

jhazard said:


> I believe people tend to put too much stock in wheel size, and not enough their own ability. It's not the wheel size, it's the rider....


it's that negative thinking that will preclude your from ever being offered a job at Mountain Bike Action


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

Could be a new category, PRO-X-Technical-C-Down-Enduro-Hill-Technical where he could race and destroy everyone at once....


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

jhazard said:


> Could be a new category, PRO-X-Technical-C-Down-Enduro-Hill-Technical where he could race and destroy everyone at once....


I didn't say I can beat everyone, just most normal people on 29er's on technical terrain. But it's not a contest. Thanks.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

turbodog said:


> I didn't say I can beat everyone, just most normal people on 29er's on technical terrain. But it's not a contest. Thanks.


Heh, let's see what you said. Exactly.



turbodog said:


> Trust me, I can out climb you and any 29er's I come across.


So is it "most normal people" or "any"?


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

You can beat people, but it's not a contest... how's that work?  (sorry, just having fun) 

Do you have an example of what your technical terrain is?


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

802spokestoke said:


> But Kona and Santa Cruz are pushing up production on the next round of tweeners? Also, Gwinn has been doing some of the cup on a 7ish inch travel 650b.


I think Santa Cruz Syndicate is the only team running 26ers exclusively. Gwinn runs a 650b, but with no tire it's more like a 26er.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

MOJO K said:


> I think Santa Cruz Syndicate is the only team running 26ers exclusively. Gwinn runs a 650b, but with no tire it's more like a 26er.


Ratboy and Peaty are on 650b V10...
Santa Cruz V10 27.5 Wheels Prototype


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

jhazard said:


> You can beat people, but it's not a contest... how's that work?


It's called STRAVA!!!!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Heh, let's see what you said. Exactly.
> 
> So is it "most normal people" or "any"?


"any 29er's that I come across".

Most (all) the really good technical riders I see out on the trails in my area are on 26".


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## bad andy (Feb 21, 2006)

Can we throw some clipless/flats debate into this equation too? 'Cuz I think we all agree that clipless is cheating and most/all/any/some flats riders' technical abilities will surely be better than your pet squirrel's?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Maybe on a dirt road, but not on anything remotely technical. :thumbsup:


I can out climb you on any surface.



turbodog said:


> Not sure you're following my point. All I'm saying is that my setup is massively superior for technical climbing (and decending) vs. the large majority of 29er's out on the trails. While I am a very good climber, I'm only at a moderate fitness level currently. Big part of it is the bike.
> 
> Futhermore, people will argue that you can setup 29er like my bike or any all mountain 26", and that's really the difference. But you can't really.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to tell you this (not) but you are the biggest idiot on this site. Only a moron would be led to think that a full blown downhill bike is easier to climb than a hardtail. I mean come on, a non lockout heavy full suspension bike versus a lightweight bike designed for climbing would see the hardtail as the winner no matter the wheel size (but 29ers rollover stuff better so it will still be a better technical climber because it will have less junk to avoid on the trail). 
You might want to rethink your theories now.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bad andy said:


> Can we throw some clipless/flats debate into this equation too? 'Cuz I think we all agree that clipless is cheating and most/all/any/some flats riders' technical abilities will surely be better than your pet squirrel's?


I've been riding clipless for 20 years, including racing DH clipless.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

jazzanova said:


> Ratboy and Peaty are on 650b V10...
> Santa Cruz V10 27.5 Wheels Prototype


We'll see if they run them at the WC...the Leogang win was on the 26er.

FWIW I didn't have much faith in "the Good Ol' 26er?"

















...so I built up a brand new one. I LOVE how the Whippet came out 19.5lb ( but my Strava times have proven that the 29er ,27lb, is still faster by quite a bit).


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## big_slacker (Feb 16, 2004)

The best thing about this thread is that 99% of the people posting don't give a **** what they or anyone else is riding when they're out riding. But it's a congressional debate once the internet gets involved.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I can out climb you on any surface.
> 
> I'm sorry to tell you this (not) but you are the biggest idiot on this site. Only a moron would be led to think that a full blown downhill bike is easier to climb than a hardtail. I mean come on, a non lockout heavy full suspension bike versus a lightweight bike designed for climbing would see the hardtail as the winner no matter the wheel size (but 29ers rollover stuff better so it will still be a better technical climber because it will have less junk to avoid on the trail).
> You might want to rethink your theories now.


Aw, you're so cute!!!! You're like a fluffy little puppy running around and nipping at everything! AWWWWWW!!!!!

Anyway, you grossly underestimate the importance of traction and suspension in climbing. I've done a ton of climbing on a light hardtail with a semi slick....before you were old enough to ride a bike. The slight improvement in rollover with a 29er is nothing compared to a beefy rear tire and bottomless smooth travel. Deal with it.









And since when is a 31lb AM bike heavy? It's light enough that I can climb it with a 30x30 low gear. When you were 4 years old, I was climbing a 45lb+ dh bike with a 44x30 low gear and slammed seat, LOL.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Anyway, you grossly underestimate the importance of traction and suspension in climbing. I've done a ton of climbing on a light hardtail with a semi slick....before you were old enough to ride a bike. The slight improvement in rollover with a 29er is nothing compared to a beefy rear tire and bottomless smooth travel. Deal with it.


And guess what? I can climb with a 34 single front ring and a 34 rear cog, and with tyres that have a lot of rolling resistance. I don't even lockout my fork. 
My bike is light (not carbon light, but still light). I don't know how steep your climbs were on your heavy ass downhill bike, but I bet I could climb them better than you.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> And guess what? I can climb with a 34 single front ring and a 34 rear cog, and with tyres that have a lot of rolling resistance. I don't even lockout my fork.
> My bike is light (not carbon light, but still light). I don't know how steep your climbs were on your heavy ass downhill bike, but I bet I could climb them better than you.


Humm. If you're riding tires with a lot of rolling resistance, especially on a 29er, you have alot to learn.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Humm. If you're riding tires with a lot of rolling resistance, especially on a 29er, you have alot to learn.


Humm, If you're climbing steep hills with a downhill bike, you have a lot to learn.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Humm, If you're climbing steep hills with a downhill bike, you have a lot to learn.


You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


You know that I'm half your age and am just as strong as you? Just because I have been mountain biking for only 3 years doesn't mean I am a weakling. Most of my riding includes steep hill climbs. I have a surprisingly strong endurance on the climbs and I am as strong on the descents.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

turbodog said:


> You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


you may be ancient but i also know one of the best riders i have ever ridden with was born in the civil war era yet aquaholic is pretty gnar. though apologies to you tdawg...he ruins your hypothesis of what can and should be done on a hardtail, let alone a rigid version


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

The only way you two are going to hash this out is meet up and prove each other wrong. It's been run reading nonetheless.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


Everybody is Ned Overend when they can simply hide behind a computer screen. You're simply being annoying. A talent which you are perfecting with every post.

(Oh wait a sec, Ned Overend is opened minded and rides a 29" bike but I'm sure you could kick his ass on a mountain bike. Right turdodog?)

One thing I have found out in my many years of cycling ... good riders don't need to talk about how good they are as they simply leave it on the road or trail. Mediocre riders never shut up about how great they are and can be the most irritating sanctimonious DB's on the face of the earth. Gee, which one are you turdodog?


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

ShinDiggity said:


> One thing I have found out in my many years of cycling ... good riders don't need to talk about how good they are as they simply leave it on the road or trail.QUOTE]
> 
> Spoken for truth.
> 
> +rep


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

ShinDiggity said:


> Everybody is Ned Overend when they can simply hide behind a computer screen. You're simply being annoying. A talent which you are perfecting with every post.
> 
> (Oh wait a sec, Ned Overend is opened minded and rides a 29" bike but I'm sure you could kick his ass on a mountain bike. Right turdodog?)
> 
> One thing I have found out in my many years of cycling ... good riders don't need to talk about how good they are as they simply leave it on the road or trail. Mediocre riders never shut up about how great they are and can be the most irritating sanctimonious DB's on the face of the earth. Gee, which one are you turdodog?


Carefully.
If you hurt Turdos feelings, he might complain to the mods about you again.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

jazzanova said:


> Carefully.
> If you hurt Turdos feelings, he might complain to the mods about you again.


Well I'm not saying what I really want to. I'm being nice. Scaling it back so I don't hurt poor little turdodogs feelings.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> I am, however, questioning my technical riding skills, experience, intellect, critical thinking skills, analytical skills, vocabulary, ego, mechanical skills, bow staff skills, and personal grooming habits. So far I am not impressed with myself.


Fixed. You're welcome.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> You know that I'm half your age and am just as strong as you? Just because I have been mountain biking for only 3 years doesn't mean I am a weakling. Most of my riding includes steep hill climbs. I have a surprisingly strong endurance on the climbs and I am as strong on the descents.


I'm not questioning your strength or athletic ability. I am, however, questioning your technical riding skills, experience, intellect, critical thinking skills, analytical skills, vocabulary, ego, mechanical skills, bow staff skills, and personal grooming habits. So far I am not impressed.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

ShinDiggity said:


> Everybody is Ned Overend when they can simply hide behind a computer screen. You're simply being annoying. A talent which you are perfecting with every post.
> 
> (Oh wait a sec, Ned Overend is opened minded and rides a 29" bike but I'm sure you could kick his ass on a mountain bike. Right turdodog?)
> 
> One thing I have found out in my many years of cycling ... good riders don't need to talk about how good they are as they simply leave it on the road or trail. Mediocre riders never shut up about how great they are and can be the most irritating sanctimonious DB's on the face of the earth. Gee, which one are you turdodog?


I'm not making any claims about my ability, other than that I'm experienced and considerably better than average, as a point of reference for the topic at hand. While there are certainly exceptions, it's pretty clear that in general people with less experience and technical ability tend to prefer 29er's, while experienced technical riders prefer 26".


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I'm not questioning your strength or athletic ability. I am, however, questioning your technical riding skills, experience, intellect, critical thinking skills, analytical skills, vocabulary, ego, mechanical skills, bow staff skills, and personal grooming habits. So far I am not impressed.


You know nothing about me. 
But in fact I know that you are an old pile of crap that is so instable that he (or she) can't come to terms with change and would rather complain to the internet and blabber to random people about your pain when you should just go on a ****ing mountain bike ride to ease your pain.
Have fun climbing the grand canyon you overconfident loaf.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

FoShizzle said:


> ....what can and should be done on a hardtail, let alone a rigid version


What's the rigid version of a hardtail....? LOL.

I rode full rigid for two years when I first started riding. Would not go back. I'll take every advantage I can get - clipless, tubeless, suspension, discs - that I think is worth while. For trail riding, 26" is clearly an advantage over 29er's, so I'm happy to stick with it!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> You know nothing about me.
> But in fact I know that you are an old pile of crap that is so instable that he (or she) can't come to terms with change and would rather complain to the internet and blabber to random people about your pain when you should just go on a ****ing mountain bike ride to ease your pain.
> Have fun climbing the grand canyon you overconfident loaf.


I also question your online etiquette! You don't seem to be a very nice person, either.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> I'm not making any claims about my ability, other than that I'm experienced and considerably better than average, as a point of reference for the topic at hand. While there are certainly exceptions, it's pretty clear that in general people with less experience and technical ability tend to prefer 29er's, while experienced technical riders prefer 26".


Of course you are making claims about your ability. Aren't you even reading what you have written? All one has to do is read your posts touting how much better you are than any one you have ever met on a 29" bike. My guess would be you are a mediocre rider at best and are way over compensating for your glaringly obvious shortcomings. But since you are hiding behind the computer screen we'll never know now will we (even though we do know)?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I also question your online etiquette! You don't seem to be a very nice person, either.


I'm a nice person when I am not trying to argue with a person who acts like a 5 year old.
You have tried my patience and I have had it with you and your pathetic arguments.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

ShinDiggity said:


> Of course you are making claims about your ability. Aren't you even reading what you have written? All one has to do is read your posts touting how much better you are than any one you have ever met on a 29" bike. My guess would be you are a mediocre rider at best and are way over compensating for your glaringly obvious shortcomings. But since you are hiding behind the computer screen we'll never know now will we (even though we do know)?


Sorry, but now I have to question your critical reading skills. I made a specific claim that I've out technical climb anyone I've met on a 29er - meaning that I typically stay on the bike and make it over rough terrain when they don't. Most people on 29er's are on hardtails with semi-slick or light knobs, both of which are a major disadvantage in technical climbing. I've never ridden with anyone with a long travel 29er with aggressive tires, which is understandable because that is a very rare setup to have. I made no claims about speed or endurance over non-technical terrain, where clearly the 29er rider has an advantage.

Point being, big tires and long suspension trump the typical 29er XC hardtail setup for technical climbing.


----------



## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I'm a nice person when I am not trying to argue with a person who acts like a 5 year old.
> You have tried my patience and I have had it with you and your pathetic arguments.


Ok, cool. Feel free to not respond to my posts, and you will be the true winner here.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

turbodog said:


> You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


So canondale F9 is what, 5 or 6 years old?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Sorry, but now I have to question your critical reading skills. I made a specific claim that I've out technical climb anyone I've met on a 29er - meaning that I typically stay on the bike and make it over rough terrain when they don't. Most people on 29er's are on hardtails with semi-slick or light knobs, both of which are a major disadvantage in technical climbing. I've never ridden with anyone with a long travel 29er with aggressive tires, which is understandable because that is a very rare setup to have. I made no claims about speed or endurance over non-technical terrain, where clearly the 29er rider has an advantage.
> 
> Point being, big tires and long suspension trump the typical 29er XC hardtail setup for technical climbing.


But again you are wrong. 29ers are better climbers with similar tyres and less suspension.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> But again you are wrong. 29ers are better climbers with similar tyres and less suspension.


Anything's possible, but virtually nobody sets them up like that. Unicorns are better climbers too, but they don't exist either...






So it's a bit of moot point now isn't?


----------



## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Anything's possible, but virtually nobody sets them up like that. So it's a bit of moot point now isn't?


Just because your bike isn't set up like that doesn't mean other people don't have bikes set up like that. 
You really need to think deeper into these subjects.


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Sorry, but now I have to question your critical reading skills. I made a specific claim that I've out technical climb anyone I've met on a 29er - meaning that I typically stay on the bike and make it over rough terrain when they don't. Most people on 29er's are on hardtails with semi-slick or light knobs, both of which are a major disadvantage in technical climbing. I've never ridden with anyone with a long travel 29er with aggressive tires, which is understandable because that is a very rare setup to have. I made no claims about speed or endurance over non-technical terrain, where clearly the 29er rider has an advantage.
> 
> Point being, big tires and long suspension trump the typical 29er XC hardtail setup for technical climbing.


So now it's "typical" instead of "every", "most" instead of "all".

_"I've never ridden with anyone with a long travel 29er with aggressive tires, which is understandable because that is a very rare setup to have."_

Rare set up? Where do you live? Oh that's right ... The Chocolate Factory. You need to get out more.

One disclaimer after another. Why don't you come back when you can actually stick with one "story".


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Just because your bike isn't set up like that doesn't mean other people don't have bikes set up like that.
> You really need to think deeper into these subjects.





ShinDiggity said:


> So now it's "typical" instead of "every", "most" instead of "all".
> 
> _"I've never ridden with anyone with a long travel 29er with aggressive tires, which is understandable because that is a very rare setup to have."_
> 
> ...


Here's the mtbr thread dedicated to long travel 29er's, it's 14 pages long. The bikes are pretty high end, at least $4-5k retail or more, and uncommon. Please note that less than half the bikes have aggressive rear tires, most of them have lightly nobbed tires:

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/lets-see-those-long-travel-29ers-140mm-fork-only-847374.html

Here is the post your all mountain rig thread, its 343 pages long:

http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/lets-see-those-am-setups-184590.html

Almost everybody has an aggressive rear tire. Many bikes are upper-mid end, not particularly exotic, and thus MUCH more common on the trails.

So, while there may be plenty of XC 29er's and 26" AM rigs out there, 29er AM is extremely rare. AM does technical climbing better, all day long.


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

turbodog said:


> Here's the mtbr thread dedicated to long travel 29er's, it's 14 pages long. The bikes are pretty high end, at least $4-5k retail or more, and uncommon. Please note that less than half the bikes have aggressive rear tires, most of them have lightly nobbed tires:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/lets-see-those-long-travel-29ers-140mm-fork-only-847374.html
> 
> ...


You need to share what you are smoking. People who are out to climb tech fast aren't riding long travel bikes. They are riding short travel or hard tail bikes with 29 inch wheels.

These are the things that make a bike a good climber:

Lightweight
Steep Head tube angle + Long stem
short travel

long travel All Mountain bikes are none of these things. Tire choice is relevant only to the trail conditions and surfaces. not all trails call for a super aggro tire for good climbing performance, and many times, the rotational weigh saved from running a lightweight tire low tread tire is worth it over a heavy aggressive trail tire.

Those are facts.

I recently worked as a race mechanic at a gnarly east coast XC stage race for some pros and only one of my 5 racers was on 26 inch wheels, and she is small enough to justify based on geometry concerns. All were on the Specialized S-Works Epic. The racer using 26" won the women's Open Enduro classification, so credit where credit is due, but she is also an exceptionally talented descender. The rest were more competitive in the GC with one of my male riders in the top 5 over all and 2nd in the U23 GC with a stage win, and the two other female riders placing first and third in the female open GC with multiple stage wins between them. Not one single pro in that race that was competing for the open GC was on a 26 inch bike. Every single pro that was actually in the running for the podium was on a 29er. That should tell you something.

You can argue that 26 is more fun, or makes you a better rider. You can argue that you like it more. You can argue that it's better in tight twisty track. You absolutely cannot argue that it's better for riding the gnar up hill. It's physics. Big wheels roll over stuff with less extra effort and that equals higher speeds when climbing with less energy expended. When the chips are down, riding up gnar is the name of the game, and being the fastest going up is how paychecks are earned, no one is riding 26 and that should tell you something. No one was riding more than 100mm of travel either outside of the Enduro stage either.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

turbodog said:


> You do know that I'm twice your age and have been riding for about 10 times longer than you, right?


So I'm older than you, and think you're a retrogrouch? Awesome.


----------



## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Here's the mtbr thread dedicated to long travel 29er's, it's 14 pages long. The bikes are pretty high end, at least $4-5k retail or more, and uncommon. Please note that less than half the bikes have aggressive rear tires, most of them have lightly nobbed tires:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/lets-see-those-long-travel-29ers-140mm-fork-only-847374.html
> 
> ...


And now it's specifically "typical" and "most" AM.

Just give up while you are merely parsecs behind.

I am having doubts you even ride a bike, at least without training wheels. Do they make AM tires for training wheels?


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Just because your bike isn't set up like that doesn't mean other people don't have bikes set up like that.
> You really need to think deeper into these subjects.





Iamrockandroll13 said:


> You need to share what you are smoking. People who are out to climb tech fast aren't riding long travel bikes. They are riding short travel or hard tail bikes with 29 inch wheels.
> 
> These are the things that make a bike a good climber:
> 
> ...


When I talk about technical climbing, I'm talking about stuff you would never, ever, even possibly think about putting in an XC race, because everybody would simply dismount and run up it. So I guess we're talking about two entirely different things. I'm not questioning that light XC 29er's have an advantage for XC racing.

Here's a video of a juniors world cup race with a slightly technical climbing section, something I would plow right over without a second thought on my AM bike (and would pretty easily clear on my old school HT). In a race situation, it immediately becomes a hike-a-bike section, because most racers won't even try to clear it.....

UCI Mountain Bike World Cup 2013 in Albstadt, Germany. Men Juniors. - YouTube


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

Pictures man, show the goods. WHAT are you riding up that's so technical, that lesser riders cannot....?


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

jhazard said:


> Pictures man, show the goods. WHAT are you riding up that's so technical, that lesser riders cannot....?


I have no dog in this fight however I am curious about this as well.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

jhazard said:


> Pictures man, show the goods. WHAT are you riding up that's so technical, that lesser riders cannot....?


I'll get some pics at some point.


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

turbodog said:


> When I talk about technical climbing, I'm talking about stuff you would never, ever, even possibly think about putting in an XC race, because everybody would simply dismount and run up it. So I guess we're talking about two entirely different things. I'm not questioning that light XC 29er's have an advantage for XC racing.


Newsflash, XC racing is not about riding smooth flow trails fast. It's about climbing up the most technical single track you can find on the mountain as fast as you can, at least it is where I'm from. I know what technical is. I ride downhill gravity stuff too.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

Clearly turbodog is a double agent, and his true passion is BIG WHEELS.

Well played dog, but I had you pegged from the gittyup. 

As for myself, I'm gonna ride my 26" till the wheels fall off. By then, I _should_ be "relaxed" enough to consider the two-niner. :thumbsup:

I seriously doubt I would settle for a 650b either way.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

turbodog said:


> What's the rigid version of a hardtail....? LOL.
> 
> I rode full rigid for two years when I first started riding. Would not go back. I'll take every advantage I can get - clipless, tubeless, suspension, discs - that I think is worth while. For trail riding, 26" is clearly an advantage over 29er's, so I'm happy to stick with it!


fair point, bad use of words...hardtail implies only rigid out back with suspension fork, rigid implies no suspension in back or up front

i have had every flavor of bike i was able to imagine...back around only having 10,000 posts, now i have resigned to having only a hardtail, a rigid MTB and a cross bike, i could never keep up with you

in summary, 26ers rule


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

FoShizzle said:


> fair point, bad use of words...hardtail implies only rigid out back with suspension fork, rigid implies no suspension in back or up front
> 
> in summary, 26ers rule


I had a rigid when I first started MTB. The second suspension came out for the front I was all over it.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

blackitout said:


> I had a rigid when I first started MTB. The second suspension came out for the front I was all over it.


i think there is enough of a debate for which there is no "correct" answer in this thread already so i want pontificate why i prefer hardtails/rigid MTBs. the ladies like me rigid so thats why its my main choice nowadays


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

FoShizzle said:


> i think there is enough of a debate for which there is no "correct" answer in this thread already so i want pontificate why i prefer hardtails/rigid MTBs. the ladies like me rigid so thats why its my main choice nowadays


Haha no debate here. Ride what you like. I rode rigid for two years until rockshox came to be. Just my personal preference.
I love seeing rigid single speeds on the trails. I respect them way more than people with full suspension bikes on trails. They're always nicer people.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

FoShizzle said:


> i think there is enough of a debate for which there is no "correct" answer in this thread already so i want pontificate why i prefer hardtails/rigid MTBs. the ladies like me rigid so thats why its my main choice nowadays


Fyi, you preferring hardtails does not seem to imply the ladies like it as much as it implies you like the rigid. Just sayin....


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

blackitout said:


> I love seeing rigid single speeds on the trails. I respect them way more than people with full suspension bikes on trails. They're always nicer people.


not all of them. i for one am an utter ahole though in general, pretty good guys yeah


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> When I talk about technical climbing, I'm talking about stuff you would never, ever, even possibly think about putting in an XC race, because everybody would simply dismount and run up it. So I guess we're talking about two entirely different things. I'm not questioning that light XC 29er's have an advantage for XC racing.
> 
> Here's a video of a juniors world cup race with a slightly technical climbing section, something I would plow right over without a second thought on my AM bike (and would pretty easily clear on my old school HT). In a race situation, it immediately becomes a hike-a-bike section, because most racers won't even try to clear it.....
> 
> UCI Mountain Bike World Cup 2013 in Albstadt, Germany. Men Juniors. - YouTube


You call that a technical climb. I could make that any time any day. 
In fact, a trail I ride every weekend has a very technical rock garden climb that I can make with my 29er that would be a lot more difficult with a 26er.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

Bottom line: turbodog is the best rider on the planet

/thread


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

turbodog said:


> When I talk about technical climbing, I'm talking about stuff you would never, ever, even possibly think about putting in an XC race,


And yet, you post a link to.... AN XC RACE!!!! lol!



turbodog said:


> Here's a video of a juniors world cup race with a slightly technical climbing section, something I would plow right over without a second thought on my AM bike (and would pretty easily clear on my old school HT). In a race situation, it immediately becomes a hike-a-bike section, because most racers won't even try to clear it.....
> 
> UCI Mountain Bike World Cup 2013 in Albstadt, Germany. Men Juniors. - YouTube


That's "Slightly Technical" to you?

Seriously though... what do YOU ride?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

This would be a great thread topic to start by a bike company that wants to shake up its product line next year.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

jhazard said:


> And yet, you post a link to.... AN XC RACE!!!! lol!
> 
> That's "Slightly Technical" to you?
> 
> Seriously though... what do YOU ride?


Reading comprehension much? I spent about 30 minutes looking for video of technical climbing in an XC race. That's the best I could do - SLIGHTLY technical - and they walk it. I would not consider that at all challenging, AS I CLEARLY DESCRIBED IN MY PREVIOUS POST.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> You call that a technical climb. I could make that any time any day.
> In fact, a trail I ride every weekend has a very technical rock garden climb that I can make with my 29er that would be a lot more difficult with a 26er.


Cool man, good on you. Maybe you should take up world cup XC racing, because you're clearly a better rider than all those XC wussies in the video who didn't even bother to try it with their 29er race bikes (that are supposedly great for technical cimbing). Why didn't they just fly right over it....?


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## ShinDiggity (Mar 29, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Cool man, good on you. Maybe you should take up world cup XC racing, because you're clearly a better rider than all those XC wussies in the video who didn't even bother to try it with their 29er race bikes (that are supposedly great for technical cimbing). Why didn't they just fly right over it....?


This is your boss and you took his advice to heart.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Reading comprehension much? I spent about 30 minutes looking for video of technical climbing in an XC race. That's the best I could do - SLIGHTLY technical - and they walk it. I would not consider that at all challenging, AS I CLEARLY DESCRIBED IN MY PREVIOUS POST.


Well you should have found this video
It explains why 29ers are better climbers.
Also it is sponsored by your favourite bike brand.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

Maybe it's just the video not showing the steepness of the terrain but the dude on the 26er looks a bit inept when pedaling.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

cjsb said:


> This would be a great thread topic to start by a bike company that wants to shake up its product line next year.


Are you implying that turbodog is a shill?

The way consumers have been brainwashed these days, I suspect that is as plausible of a hypothesis as any. Surely anyone that is as good of a debater as he, understands that making assumptions about your own abilities compared to others, without offering any proof, is a really lousy way to convince people of a valid argument. If anything it will push consumers in the opposite direction. I think he owes the 29'er crowd an apology.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Tres Bottelas said:


> Are you implying that turbodog is a shill?
> 
> The way consumers have been brainwashed these days, I suspect that is as plausible of a hypothesis as any. Surely anyone that is as good of a debater as he, understands that making assumptions about your own abilities compared to others, without offering any proof, is a really lousy way to convince people of any validity to your argument. If anything it will push consumers in the opposite direction. I think he owes the 29'er crowd an apology.


i would agree though in addition to a public apology (or risk getting banned by the MTBR per their monthly meeting where such issues are discussed) to the 29er crowd (even though most are douchebags), he owes an apology to the 650B crowd as well as me personally, and any others who have hardtails as their primary ride or even short travel suspension (which i believe is anything 5" or less).


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Well you should have found this video
> It explains why 29ers are better climbers.
> Also it is sponsored by your favourite bike brand.


Wow. Are you trying to prove for me how unbelieveable the mag/industry marketing machine is?

They make the guy on the 26" look completely incompetent.

The comments are even better, everybody sees right through it.

Seriously, if you can post something like this and claim that it proves your point, well, I know exactly what level of person I'm dealing with here.


----------



## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Tres Bottelas said:


> Are you implying that turbodog is a shill?
> 
> The way consumers have been brainwashed these days, I suspect that is as plausible of a hypothesis as any. Surely anyone that is as good of a debater as he, understands that making assumptions about your own abilities compared to others, without offering any proof, is a really lousy way to convince people of a valid argument. If anything it will push consumers in the opposite direction. I think he owes the 29'er crowd an apology.


I'm sorry, on behalf of the bike industry, that we sold all these people glorified hybrids solely on half truths and deceptive marketing.

(Posted from my yacht in the South Pacific)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

One of the stupidest arguments ever. I like my 26" bikes, I find they fit my riding style well. 29ers feel wonky to me, so I don't dig them for me personally. I could give a **** how fast some XC racer is on them, or if some kid who has a myopic perspective on biking in general thinks they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've had my ass handed to me by riders on all sorts of wheel sizes on all sorts of terrain, as will all of you if you ride enough. I've seen guys on 26" full DH race bikes clean extended techy climbs that I very seriously doubt 2% of the people posting here could manage on any bike. I've seen my 9 y/o on his 30-something lb 24" pass dozens of spandex warriors on walking their carbon 29ers on techy terrain. (Oh, and for Cannondale F9 in particular, since he completely dismisses BMX riding as 'gay' as I recall, I've seen random no-name locals on BMX bikes pull moves that no one ever has on an MTB, or probably ever will). Thinking that because you bought into any particular wheel size or type of bike makes you a better rider actually just makes you a total marketing sucker IME. Be assured, whatever you're riding, there are plenty of people out there riding something completely different that will crush you, no matter how much smoke the salesperson at the local shop blows up your ass.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

turbodog said:


> Wow. Are you trying to prove for me how unbelieveable the mag/industry marketing machine is?
> 
> They make the guy on the 26" look completely incompetent.
> 
> ...


If anything, more than a few people went out and bought brand new 26'ers, just so they could see for themselves. After watching that, I personally felt a lot more justified with mine.

Freegin' brilliant.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Tres Bottelas said:


> If anything, more than a few people went out and bought brand new 26'ers, just so they could see for themselves. After watching that, I personally felt a lot more justified with mine.
> 
> Freegin' brilliant.


to me the video has zero credibility as i dont trust people with strange accents


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

FoShizzle said:


> to me the video has zero credibility as i dont trust people with strange accents


And the fact they make him look like he can't pedal up sticks. It looks so staged.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I'm sorry, on behalf of the bike industry, that we sold all these people glorified hybrids solely on half truths and deceptive marketing.
> 
> (Posted from my sinking yacht in the South Pacific)


Full truths. They never said that 29ers were the best at tight handling, and that is the only place that 29ers are not as good. 
You might want to tend to your imaginary boat, especially because it is probably just a cardboard box in the basement of your mom's house.

And for the record, I knew the video was highly unfair to the 26" wheel, but it's just showing you that every wheel size has phony videos like that. Even the 26" wheel videos you have been watching to convince yourself that your idiotic concepts are true.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> One of the stupidest arguments ever. I like my 26" bikes, I find they fit my riding style well. 29ers feel wonky to me, so I don't dig them for me personally. I could give a **** how fast some XC racer is on them, or if some kid who has a myopic perspective on biking in general thinks they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've had my ass handed to me by riders on all sorts of wheel sizes on all sorts of terrain, as will all of you if you ride enough. I've seen guys on 26" full DH race bikes clean extended techy climbs that I very seriously doubt 2% of the people posting here could manage on any bike. I've seen my 9 y/o on his 30-something lb 24" pass dozens of spandex warriors on walking their carbon 29ers on techy terrain. (Oh, and for Cannondale F9 in particular, since he completely dismisses BMX riding as 'gay' as I recall, I've seen random no-name locals on BMX bikes pull moves that no one ever has on an MTB, or probably ever will). Thinking that because you bought into any particular wheel size or type of bike makes you a better rider actually just makes you a total marketing sucker IME. Be assured, whatever you're riding, there are plenty of people out there riding something completely different that will crush you, no matter how much smoke the salesperson at the local shop blows up your ass.


^ Pure awesome.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Full truths. They never said that 29ers were the best at tight handling, and that is the only place that 29ers are not as good.
> You might want to tend to your imaginary boat, especially because it is probably just a cardboard box in the basement of your mom's house.
> 
> And for the record, I knew the video was highly unfair to the 26" wheel, but it's just showing you that every wheel size has phony videos like that. Even the 26" wheel videos you have been watching to convince yourself that your idiotic concepts are true.


No, it's half truth. They claim that 29er's roll over things better and carry more momentum - true to to simple physics and geometry - but then go and completely fabricate claims that they are better for actually riding.

Face it, you're a sucker.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

turbodog said:


> No, it's half truth. They claim that 29er's roll over things better and carry more momentum - true to to simple physics and geometry - but then go and completely fabricate claims that they are better for actually riding.
> 
> Face it, you're a sucker.


Man you are like a little kid. 
How many times do you need to be told that you have no credibility until you at least try a 29er and 650b?
How could you even know the claims are fabricated if you have no experience whatsoever on anything but your 26er?


----------



## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> No, it's half truth. They claim that 29er's roll over things better and carry more momentum - true to to simple physics and geometry - but then go and completely fabricate claims that they are better for actually riding.


So you're saying that you don't fabricate claims that 26ers are better?
You certainly are fabricating claims that 26ers are better because you have never ridden a 29er. Until you do it is all your claims are utter rubbish and should be disposed of.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

turbodog said:


> No, it's half truth. They claim that 29er's roll over things better and carry more momentum - true to to simple physics and geometry - but then go and completely fabricate claims that they are better for actually riding.
> 
> Face it, you're a sucker.





jazzanova said:


> Man you are like a little kid.
> How many times do you need to be told that you have no credibility until you at least try a 29er and 650b?
> How could you even know the claims are fabricated if you have no experience whatsoever on anything but your 26er?


That's because he is a little kid just like this one. These two are well known as starting arguments over in General. And after many ridicule it came out that they're only 16 years old.



CannondaleF9 said:


> Full truths. They never said that 29ers were the best at tight handling, and that is the only place that 29ers are not as good.
> You might want to tend to your imaginary boat, especially because it is probably just a cardboard box in the basement of your mom's house.
> 
> And for the record, I knew the video was highly unfair to the 26" wheel, but it's just showing you that every wheel size has phony videos like that. Even the 26" wheel videos you have been watching to convince yourself that your idiotic concepts are true.


----------



## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> That's because he is a little kid just like this one. These two are well known as starting arguments over in General. And after many ridicule it came out that they're only 16 years old.


I have never started an argument. Clearly Turddog has, but he's a troll. There are some other people who started arguments that I agreed with, but they are now banned, and so is one of them who argued against us. 
Don't make this thread go completely off topic, please.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I have never started an argument. Clearly Turddog has, but he's a troll. There are some other people who started arguments that I agreed with, but they are now banned, and so is one of them who argued against us.
> Don't make this thread go completely off topic, please.


Here we go again... State your age please.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

This thread is hilarious. I ride both , they both have their pros and cons. Even though I prefer 26ers I am overall, a little bit faster on my 29er on an XC course, and they sure climb better over tech stuff. Other types of smooth climbs you could call it a wash. I just have more fun on my 26er full suspension camber and rockhopper. Even though I LOVE a 26 wheeled bike (i also love 29ers btw, just a little less), some statements here are beyond the realm of the utterly ridiculous. Turbodog, who are you? Are you really a veteran mtber or are you like 14 or something? They say when people get really old they become like a child again. Is that your case? I sure want to see some of your awesomeness and learn from it. I think we all (humanity) deserve a vid where you show the world you mad skills.

Cheers


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

My problem is the 27.5" wheel size makes my ass look big.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

Hey Turbidog you act just like the road biker in this video.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

FoShizzle said:


> to me the video has zero credibility as i dont trust people with strange accents


Did anyone else notice that the 26'er was leading the DH at the end of the video? hmmmmmm?


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## shining_trapezoid (Mar 24, 2014)

jesus f'n christ are you guys still arguing about this?


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

IM old, overweight and slow. Anyone can outride me.

But I've noticed something about some of the fastest riders. 26, sis-fittyB, or '9'er...about half of them show up at a trailhead, shred the trails for a morning, or an afternoon, then grab a beer.

There's an old guy lives near me, just got himself a Salsa Vaya. I have an old Japanese roadie: Schwalbe 35's on cheap Weinman 650b rims barely fit and I use it as a faux gravel bike. He and I took a couple of other riders out for a gravel/singletrack/logging road/cowtrail/bushwack ride in June. 60 miles, 9mph avg, pretty much all day. 

One of those riders was the "shred for 2 hours" guy; I installed him on my mid-80's Raleigh 26" rigid. The first half of the day, he was impatient with us slow old fogies. By mile 60, he was keeping up, but not burning any extra. Post-ride, we biked to little local dive, had a beer and burgers, then rode the 3/4 mile to my house. Old shreddy could barely hump that old bike home. 

Do you think it was the 26" wheels?


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## Nuck Biker (Jul 3, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> Probably the same way mine wear her 25+ shoes and bags...


Ha! Good answer. Count yourself lucky though, mine had 75 at one point :madman:


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

bwheelin said:


> Even though alot of us are still holding onto and riding our 26ers, I wonder what percentage of people are buying them at this point. Also, what can we expect in the next 5 years or less for a 26? Extinction or just a lack of parts available?


An interesting question.

Some bike purchases are steered by sales staff and marketing ploys, some people buy a bike b/c it's what their friend has (brand or specific model) or just a cool, different looking color. Others have made strong points about the 26" losing floor space. When shoppers see 75 bikes on the floor and all but 5 are 650, or twentynines, 'marketing' takes over.

'We' probably trust the idea that the top selling bikes or models are considered the better bikes but better performance? 
better value? 
or better marketing and advertising ... ? Who knows ?

These kinds of debates help me realize more and more that I can update or upgrade parts on my 11 year old V brake h/t as-when needed or preferred and if I really need a cool newer gen color or matte finish, I'll just paint the dang thing. 
To justify anything in the newer price points of good quality and spend the coin, I've got a lot more envelope to push anyways and I'm already pretty content.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

BrianU said:


> I have had no interest in the 650b, figuring they are too close to a 26" to be much different. Although I got say, two local riders that have been pretty hardcore 26er holdouts, have recently started riding FS 650b's. They both tried and hated 29ers, but they are loving their 650b's. I am kind of wondering if it has more to do with the quality of the suspension than tire size. One rides an Intense and the other, one of the new KTMs. This does bring up an interesting point. I think by 2016 there will be two standard wheel sizes, the 29er and 650b, with the maybe, just maybe, the exception of DJ and fat tire bikes. What about everything else in 26ers? How about this for turn-about.....what significant advantage does the 26" wheel offer over the 650b?
> 
> In a year and a half, I am going to bump this post. Going to be fun seeing who gets to eat a big ol' plate of crow.


I started biking on a mtb frame about the same time, '91 HardRock. Still got it in my effort to be a retro grouch ... lol.
I haven't shopped for a bike since the disc brakes were the new thing and I've yet to ride a 29 or a 650. My new bike is an 11 y/o h/t Kona with V-brakes. 
With a huge lack of knowledge or experience, I can only say that the reading, hype or advertising on the 650 size seems to give cred to the 26 and the 29 b/c mostly I see "the best of both worlds" stated in context.

I'm pretty sure I won't be riding over things that are limited by the 26" roll, I do like the current wheelbase and handling and there is no draw for me to go test ride a current h/t with quality components that likely runs 3 to 4 times the cost of my 01 alloy frame bike. 
Nothing is going to push me to go spend $1400 to $1800 on a bike no matter how RockStar it might make me feel or perform.

I see $850 bikes with cool fenders and baskets that are trying to look like a 1968 Schwinn news boy bike. Those were about $58.









Sheep are too smart to carry around wallets with cash !


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

turbodog said:


> You guys are really stretching on this technical riding thing. I can tell you, every time I've ridden with people on 29ers, I've very clearly outridden them, both climbing and decending. I was riding, while they were walking - especially on the climbs. These are experienced riders too.


Not doubting but it seems strange. I get the idea of gear ratio / tire size but in many instances I've looked at, the ring size is accounted for on the 29" and comes out a match to the differing ratio for the 26". The simple explanation might be a variable such as the level of fitness for other riders or 'mind over matter'. Maybe they got psyched out.


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## Tres Bottelas (May 27, 2014)

shining_trapezoid said:


> jesus f'n christ are you guys still arguing about this?


It's not an argument, it's a discussion.


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

I just bought a 26-er, my first bike in 2.5 years after getting out of riding for what I thought might be for good. I looked into the new sizes, my head spun, I took to Pinkbike and scored a bike I lusted after in the late '00s with a $3k build for $1200, rode it today and loved it. Whatever deficiencies the 26" bike is supposed to have, I don't feel them as a compelling Pain Point...


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## noonievut (Feb 17, 2004)

I last mountain biked 10 years ago, on a 26". Decided to buy a mtb this year to compliment road riding. Bought a 26" FS. I go plenty fast for my liking, I can climb and descend steep switchbacks littered with roots and rocks (successfully), I float over small stuff remaining seated, and I can flick the bike where I need to and it complies when I need it to, bike fits in my car no problem. I honestly don't know how a different wheel size can improve my mountain biking experience? Faster - no thanks. Float over larger objects - then I would never need to stand. For the trails I ride I'm really happy with my bike. Oh, and did I mention it's msrp is $5,500 and I paid $2,000 (incl tax)....thank you big bike companies for marketing this new stuff so that I can score a close out deal on this bike!


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Tres Bottelas said:


> Did anyone else notice that the 26'er was leading the DH at the end of the video? hmmmmmm?


well i guess that is another pro for 26ers

i have also been wanting a roadbike and am so happy the Tour de France is ending as i need to see who the winner is to know which bike is the best


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

In my opinion, most of the bike industry stuck with 26ers until it became obvious they would need to change or die.

If 26" bicycles go out of production, new and used parts will be available for decades. Not to mention that a lot of 650B parts can be used with 26" wheels. If you love 26ers, this is a freakin' bonanza. Buy what you need on Ebay for cheap and learn to wrench on it yourself.

I don't think 29" wheels ever had a shot at killing the 26er. If it happens, blame it on 650B, the wheelsize that was on life support just a few short years ago.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bachman1961 said:


> View attachment 911010


This is the next big thing!


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

Those men look like rapists.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Agwan said:


> Those men look like rapists.


The 'city bike' ;
For those with the patience of hanging around in a dark downtown alley.

Or;
Bikes of the 60's and 70's look cool. People of the 60's and 70's look scary.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bachman1961 said:


> The 'city bike' ;
> For those with the patience of hanging around in a dark downtown alley.
> 
> Or;
> Bikes of the 60's and 70's look cool. People of the 60's and 70's look scary.


Those look like 29er's to me, definitely 700c.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Those look like 29er's to me, definitely 700c.


They look like 26ers. Clearly you can't tell the difference.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> They look like 26ers. Clearly you can't tell the difference.


Those are clearly not 26" mountain bike wheels. Actually, they are the brand new 28er size, which should be hitting stores any day now. BUY BUY BUY!!!!


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Those are clearly not 26" mountain bike wheels. Actually, they are the brand new 28er size, which should be hitting stores any day now. BUY BUY BUY!!!!


Well unless those guys are tall those aren't 28 (700c). They look like either 26 or 650.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Bye, bye, bye ........


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

I was wrong.... they were more than $58.

Here's the specs though ....


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

bachman1961 said:


> I was wrong.... they were more than $58.
> 
> Here's the specs though ....
> 
> View attachment 912089


They are Schwinn "lightweight" 26x1-3/8 size, or 597mm bead seat diameter, which puts them at 28er size, by the current industry convention of BSD + 4.5" as with 27.5 and 29er.

Tire Sizing Systems


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

Turbodog and cannondalef9....you are both idiotic beyond words. Please log off and never return, mtbr would be much better off without you


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> They are Schwinn "lightweight" 26x1-3/8 size, or 597mm bead seat diameter, which puts them at 28er size, by the current industry convention of BSD + 4.5" as with 27.5 and 29er.
> 
> Tire Sizing Systems


But it's a 26" rim so I was correct.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> But it's a 26" rim so I was correct.


I think Schwinn used photoshop in this 1967 brochure to make these bikes and tires appear bigger.

They knew it would make the future wheel size debate more interesting.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

We need a standard by which to measure "technical" terrain. I give this trail ("3-mile Trail") a high "technical" rating. It is difficult. It is more difficult in reverse, but still rideable. I've done it on 26 rigid and 29er rigid. It's still difficult - I'm sure I had some dabs every time.
(this is a buddy on a FS 26er - riding UP this spot is difficult, I think - but not impossible by any stretch)








-F


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

Fleas said:


> We need a standard by which to measure "technical" terrain. I give this trail ("3-mile Trail") a high "technical" rating. It is difficult. It is more difficult in reverse, but still rideable. I've done it on 26 rigid and 29er rigid. It's still difficult - I'm sure I had some dabs every time.
> (this is a buddy on a FS 26er - riding UP this spot is difficult, I think - but not impossible by any stretch)
> View attachment 912213
> 
> ...


It looks even harder with the leaves on the ground.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Fleas said:


> We need a standard by which to measure "technical" terrain. I give this trail ("3-mile Trail") a high "technical" rating. It is difficult. It is more difficult in reverse, but still rideable. I've done it on 26 rigid and 29er rigid. It's still difficult - I'm sure I had some dabs every time.
> (this is a buddy on a FS 26er - riding UP this spot is difficult, I think - but not impossible by any stretch)
> View attachment 912213
> 
> ...


I would call that somewhat technical, but it pretty much looks like a normal trail to me.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Welcome to CT (click on video)...in 15 years of riding here I only ever saw one other guy make this one.


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

Great, this thread has gone from "my wheels are better than yours" to "my trails are harder than yours".


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

tiSS'er said:


> Great, this thread has gone from "my wheels are better than yours" to "my trails are harder than yours".


What makes a trail "techy"? Steep, loose, bumpy, twisty, tight, shytty approach/no run-in speed...all play a part. The vid I posted has a bit of everything. I'm sold on my 29er, but have never cleaned that climb on big wheels...too much wheel base, and not enough acceleration to make the right-hander/step-up. There's another climb in that forest that's so long/steep I fitted a 20T grannyand would set the rebound to full slow to try and ride it...never got that one bottom to top, but I had gotten every section at one point or another. There's the right tool for any job, but not one tool for every job.

None of the wheel formats is perfect for all situations. 27.5 seems like an excellent compromise for the guys who only keep one bike in the quiver. I also think that the 27.5 format might have a big impact on the old 26er guys who never bought into the big tires trend.( 2.3 Michellin were over an inch taller than kenda 1.9s). I'm not interested in a 27.5 for the sake of having the newest stuff. When the time comes that I need new tools I'll see what's out there and buy what I want for the job I'm doing.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I would call that somewhat technical, but it pretty much looks like a normal trail to me.


A normal trail? Even for you that cannot be a normal trail. It reminds me of some local trails that when wet are near impossible to climb. Other than that it sort of reminds me of Lonely Rock trail at Pine Hill Park, although LR is not as rugged.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

MOJO K said:


> Welcome to CT (click on video)...in 15 years of riding here I only ever saw one other guy make this one.


There's simply no way you could clear that on your typical 29er XC bike / hybrid.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

turbodog said:


> There's simply no way you could clear that on your typical 29er XC bike / hybrid.


I could. (my 29r had a 140 fork, and 100mm rear travel).

What is "typical" anyhow?

Ever going to post some of the epic technical trails you ride?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> There's simply no way you could clear that on your typical 26er XC bike / hybrid.


Fixed!


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

I am tired of the 27 and 29er manufacturer marketing BS more than anything. They are setting everyone up to reintroduce the 26er again in a few years. You guys see that right?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

De La Pena said:


> I am tired of the 27 and 29er manufacturer marketing BS more than anything. They are setting everyone up to reintroduce the 26er again in a few years. You guys see that right?


No company would drop the larger wheelsizes for smaller wheels. But a few 27ers might become 26ers again in a few years. But even that is unlikely.


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## Dirt n Dust (Mar 21, 2014)

jhazard said:


> I could. (my 29r had a 140 fork, and 100mm rear travel).
> 
> What is "typical" anyhow?
> 
> Ever going to post some of the epic technical trails you ride?


Agreed. We would all like to see these trails you speak of and you making the "very technical" climbs that a 29er couldn't possibly make.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

jhazard said:


> I could. (my 29r had a 140 fork, and 100mm rear travel).
> 
> What is "typical" anyhow?
> 
> Ever going to post some of the epic technical trails you ride?


Nope. Turbodog is your typical internet expert. The dude can rip! Trust him


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

Dirt n Dust said:


> Agreed. We would all like to see these trails you speak of and you making the "very technical" climbs that a 29er couldn't possibly make.


I will vouch for jhazard and I am not a 27 or 29er fan. He has my respect. He is well known as a phenomenal rider and an elite photographer. New Mexico, where he resides, has world class chunk and alpine trails. His work gets published regularly in various magazines/publications.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

8iking VIIking said:


> I think he was referring to turbodog...


Ehhh... perhaps so.... tough thread to follow.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

De La Pena said:


> I will vouch for jhazard. He has my respect. He is well known as a phenomenal rider and an elite photographer. New Mexico, where he resides, has world class chunk and alpine trails. His work gets published regularly in various magazines/publications.


I think he was referring to turbodog...


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## Dirt n Dust (Mar 21, 2014)

8iking VIIking said:


> I think he was referring to turbodog...


Yes I was...it wasn't very clear in my post.

I have seen the skills jhazard has on any wheel size. The man is a beast on the trails. I have not yet seen turbo back up all his talk with video proof.

These threads are very tired and pointless. I have been able to ride all three wheel sizes (so I speak from experience here) and I can truly say that it is all about personal preference, skill, and riding style. So far the biggest difference I have found was what tire I was using, not the wheel size.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> No company would drop the larger wheelsizes for smaller wheels. But a few 27ers might become 26ers again in a few years. But even that is unlikely.


You're 18 years old. You know NOTHING about the bike industry or history.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> You're 18 years old. You know NOTHING about the bike industry or history.


That's a laugh. I know a lot more about everything than you think. 
You should really start to get evidence before you post your stupid comments.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Dirt n Dust said:


> Agreed. We would all like to see these trails you speak of and you making the "very technical" climbs that a 29er couldn't possibly make.


...so that we can come over and ride them. They sound incredible!

At least gimme some coordinates for a trailhead, or an elevation profile of a route.

-F


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I think I know a lot more about everything than you think.


Fixed it for ya


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

8iking VIIking said:


> Fixed it for ya


I know about "the bike industry and history" as Turddog put it. In fact I have researched a lot about early mountainbiking. I have seen trends as 29ers gradually became more popular since 2005, and I have seen (at least in the USA) how trends have been changing since the beginnings of suspension. If that hadn't come out we'd all still be riding fully rigid steel 26ers.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

You've seen? Come on man, you're like 17


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

8iking VIIking said:


> You've seen? Come on man, you're like 17


Uhh there's something called the internet. I've done research on this subject. Don't think because I am younger than you that I am dumber than you.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

De La Pena said:


> I will vouch for jhazard and I am not a 27 or 29er fan. He has my respect. He is well known as a phenomenal rider and an elite photographer. New Mexico, where he resides, has world class chunk and alpine trails. His work gets published regularly in various magazines/publications.


I dunno 'bout all that, but thanks for the vote of confidence  (I regularly get schooled by the peeps I ride with on various obstacles, but makes me a better rider)


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

There is a big difference between reading (imagining) and experiencing (seeing). The written word is powerful, but many would rather listen to experience than trust the comprehension skills of a reader who has not done the deed or acted the part, regardless of age. This is not simply semantics, or is it?

Also: "Don't trust everything you read on the internet." -Abe Lincoln


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## tiSS'er (Jan 6, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> No company would drop the larger wheelsizes for smaller wheels. But a few 27ers might become 26ers again in a few years. But even that is unlikely.


Kona and Commencal just introduced brand spanking new 2015 model 26ers. Don't be surprised if others follow. There are plenty of people on this forum, Pinkbike, etc that are begging for 26ers. It would be unwise for companies to ignore the demand.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

tiSS'er said:


> Kona and Commencal just introduced brand spanking new 2015 model 26ers. Don't be surprised if others follow. There are plenty of people on this forum, Pinkbike, etc that are begging for 26ers. It would be unwise for companies to ignore the demand.


I'm not saying that 26ers won't stop being made, I am saying that companies most likely won't replace the large wheels by small wheels.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

jhazard said:


> I dunno 'bout all that, but thanks for the vote of confidence  (I regularly get schooled by the peeps I ride with on various obstacles, but makes me a better rider)


Most truly skilled riders act like this^ on the interwebz. Take note turbodog and cannondale.

I've watched many of Mr Hazard's vids over on the Airborne forum, he's a beast! And a modest one too!


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Uhh there's something called the internet. I've done research on this subject. Don't think because I am younger than you that I am dumber than you.


Not saying you're dumb, but you've been called out numerous times for giving advice on things you clearly know very little about


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## cheezy (Mar 27, 2012)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I know about "the bike industry and history" as Turddog put it. In fact I have researched a lot about early mountainbiking. I have seen trends as 29ers gradually became more popular since 2005, and I have seen (at least in the USA) how trends have been changing since the beginnings of suspension. If that hadn't come out we'd all still be riding fully rigid steel 26ers.


Too funny.

The thing that 29ers did was add an entirely new market (new people) to mountain biking that nobody knew existed.

When I was your age we were dirt jumping, downhilling, all mountain (wasn't even a word, free riding was the word!), urban, commuting our slacked out Marzocchi forked 26in wheeled cross country bikes while watching cranked on a weekly basis.... Oh those were good ole days where this BS bickering about tire size didn't matter. Not only that, nowadays a bike for practically every single genre of biking is being produced. What a fantastic time to be a consumer!

I am so happy my first bike was not a 29er... But these new people to the scene like this young googler here... They will never know how much fun a 26er really is cause yes... In the end they take more energy to ride.. but the reason why that is true... Is the reason why 26ers make mountain biking so damn fun.

I would stop having such a strong opinion on this kid. You have no idea what you're talking about. Go ride your bike instead.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

8iking VIIking said:


> Not saying you're dumb, but you've been called out numerous times for giving advice on things you clearly know very little about


That was last year. But now I am making sure to know about the subject before commenting, not just saying my opinion like Tirbodog is doing now.



8iking VIIking said:


> Most truly skilled riders act like this^ on the interwebz. Take note turbodog and cannondale.
> 
> I've watched many of Mr Hazard's vids over on the Airborne forum, he's a beast! And a modest one too!


I never said I was the best rider in the world. I only stated that I can ride a 29" wheeled bike on a rough trail. I know I am not the best but I keep getting better every time I hit the trails.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Uhh there's something called the internet. I've done research on this subject. Don't think because I am younger than you that I am dumber than you.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

8iking VIIking said:


> Most truly skilled riders act like this^ on the interwebz. Take note turbodog and cannondale.


I used to get schooled by a few expert and semi-pro DHer's.....does that count?


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

cheezy said:


> When I was your age we were dirt jumping, downhilling, all mountain (wasn't even a word, free riding was the word!), urban, commuting our slacked out Marzocchi forked 26in wheeled cross country bikes while watching cranked on a weekly basis....


When I was his age, I was riding a Ti hardtail with 22" wide bars and spandex. Thankfully, I moved on.


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## cheezy (Mar 27, 2012)

turbodog said:


> When I was his age, I was riding a Ti hardtail with 22" wide bars and spandex. Thankfully, I moved on.


Hold up.. You afforded a Ti hardtail at 17! Damn. I was riding a trek 8000 with an MRP (with the orange rollers metal bash guards), pro tapers, kore b52 stem... Something that would look absolutely ridiculous right now and i believe i got a Polaroid of it somewhere around here..

I never wore spandex and I've graduated to a steel frame and 800mm handle bars. 

Got nothing against spandex, but i would have a helluva a lot more scars if I wore those then.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

cheezy said:


> Hold up.. You afforded a Ti hardtail at 17! Damn. I was riding a trek 8000 with an MRP (with the orange rollers metal bash guards), pro tapers, kore b52 stem... Something that would look absolutely ridiculous right now and i believe i got a Polaroid of it somewhere around here..
> 
> I never wore spandex and I've graduated to a steel frame and 800mm handle bars.
> 
> Got nothing against spandex, but i would have a helluva a lot more scars if I wore those then.


I worked in a shop, got a pro deal.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I worked in a shop, got a pro deal.


I want to work at a bike shop, but there are no open jobs and then I am "too young". Maybe next summer I'll be able to get a job there.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

turbodog said:


> There's simply no way you could clear that on your typical 29er XC bike / hybrid.


Don't know...my 29er is a 5" Stumpy FSR with big shoes ( 2.4f/2.1r ). Yes, I could make it on a 4" 26er.

I would sometimes ride with a friend who was a climber...he loved it 'cause a ride would turn into a bouldering session. We could run at the same techy problem over and over. Spend 90 min and a pound of skin to cover 4 miles twice a week and your technique gets pretty good after a while. We got really good at that sort of thing not because we're "great riders", we got really good because it was a fun game to play.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

MOJO K said:


> Don't know...my 29er is a 5" Stumpy FSR with big shoes ( 2.4f/2.1r ). Yes, I could make it on a 4" 26er.


Well, I'll believe that. I'm talking about your typical XC hardtail with semislicks, 95%+ of the 29er market - AKA glorified hybrids.


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Well, I'll believe that. I'm talking about your typical XC hardtail with semislicks, 95%+ of the 29er market - AKA glorified hybrids.


Xc hardtails with "semislicks" were around long before 29" wheels


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

8iking VIIking said:


> Xc hardtails with "semislicks" were around long before 29" wheels


Yup... and they totally rip on buff hardpack! Super fun in either format!

Here's the thing that seems to get lost ( some of you all might take notes ). Ripping buff trails on speedy bikes is awesome...so is slamming rocky chunk on a burley bike. Being young(er) and learning it all is great...so is getting old and making up the gap in my fitness with the years of techniques I've polished in those miles. It's great that some can get one bike to do it all...It's great to have a quiver full of bikes. Lycra clad pros are admirable but no more than the obese guy taking his first stab at an active lifestyle after 10 years on the couch. Now you go ahead and tell me that one rider or one style or one kind of bike OR ONE WHEEL SIZE is better than another...BS! You think the industry trends and marketing hype are bigger than cycling as a sport or culture? BS again! It can be fun to talk about it all ( while we wait for legs to recover, rain to stop, parts to arrive, etc ) but none of is that important in the bigger picture. Don't spew out a bunch of elitist flavored generalizations about the sport so many of us love.

I like a lot of different beers because they're all delicious and make my head feel funny in a wonderful way... just like mountain biking.

K.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

noicely done, mojo k. it's like arguing about the perfect boob size. should it all fit in my hand or do i wanna sprain my toungue? wtf?

smooth lines, jump lines, tech lines it doesn't f'n matter what wheel size you're on as long as you take the fast&fun smile your ass off lines.

disclaimer: every kid starting out should ride bmx if possible. skill>whl size.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Well put. Today my wife and I took our road bikes for a tour of a small town on a bay and it was just as much fun as any other type of riding I do. Who gives a rat's arsh about wheel size, suspension, this, that and the other thing. It's a freakin' bike! We're not talking brain surgery.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

8iking VIIking said:


> Xc hardtails with "semislicks" were around long before 29" wheels


Correct, but people using them on 26" had no illusions about when and why they were being used for - XC racing on mostly smooth tracks.

I have a problem when people start claiming a XC 29er with semislicks is a reasonable all around trail bike - because their LBS told them so, they spent a pile of money, and now its the BEST EVAR!!!1!!1



turbodog said:


> Sorry man, those are both hybrids. They look REALLY similar, don't they!


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Correct, but people using them on 26" had no illusions about when and why they were being used for - XC racing on mostly smooth tracks.
> 
> I have a problem when people start claiming a XC 29er with semislicks is a reasonable all around trail bike - because their LBS told them so, they spent a pile of money, and now its the BEST EVAR!!!1!!1


Still waiting on some vids of these gnarly trails that you ride, brah


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

At a glance it looks like the head tube and seat tube angles are lower, effective top tube looks an maybe an inch longer, head tube most of an inch shorter, plus compact gearing ( with better clearance )and it's hard to tell for sure, but maybe a bit more braking power with a 7" rotor up front...

They both have big black tires and say Trek on the down tube so maybe you're half right


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

turbodog said:


> Correct, but people using them on 26" had no illusions about when and why they were being used for - XC racing on mostly smooth tracks.
> 
> I have a problem when people start claiming a XC 29er with semislicks is a reasonable all around trail bike - because their LBS told them so, they spent a pile of money, and now its the BEST EVAR!!!1!!1


Yup.....because 26" bikes are so great.

To the untrained eye, these look the same:


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

i have a problem when i don't have a problem when grown ass people who can afford to buy a bicycle w/piles of money can't think for themselves and so i have to create a problem which i don't have a problem doing with my lbs who has no problem removing me as their problem cuz i hate problems to begin with...because saving people who have a pile of money is a serious problem

p.s. i effin fred the gnar


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

53119 said:


> p.s. i effin fred the gnar


without a pic it didn't happen

BTW I'm camped out by the phone waiting to hear back about a job I'd really like to land...I mostly don't hang onto these boards so closely. As soon as I get the call we're off to Kingdom Trails....I may not be smart or good but I sure am lucky!


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

MOJO K said:


> without a pic it didn't happen
> 
> you know what it looks like. if you've seen one wadded up 40yr old on a failed gap jump or cased double crying like a little girl with a skinned knee you've seen 'em all.
> 
> hope you get the gig and the ride, mojo! ...buy a respectable wheel size with that new job, ok?!!!!! haha


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## waffleBeast (Jul 5, 2010)

Just to be clear, when they said "pick a wheel size and be a dick about it" in the how to be a mountain biker video, they were joking.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

waffleBeast said:


> Just to be clear, when they said "pick a wheel size and be a dick about it" in the how to be a mountain biker video, they were joking.


bet you're gunna' say it wasn't a real tranny on that tranny...threads like these are the beginning of the end of ...you're not helping.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Correct, but people using them on 26" had no illusions about when and why they were being used for - XC racing on mostly smooth tracks.


That is wrong. 
People buy cheap 26" hardtails being told they are capable mountain bikes, and the bikes have worse tyres than those "Semislicks" as you term them.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

53119 said:


> ...
> p.s. i effin fred the gnar


May I intentionally mis-quote that as "...phred the gnar"? :lol:

Hilarious to me. ut:

-F


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

CannondaleF9 said:


> That is wrong.
> People buy cheap 26" hardtails being told they are capable mountain bikes, and the bikes have worse tyres than those "Semislicks" as you term them.


CF9, in an odd twist, I'm with Dog here... 'round about "97 or'98 the NORBA race scene was the marketing tool of the industry. "NORBA proven geometry" was the catch phrase of the day ( right before the MBA issue featuring Brett and Richie and the whole "Fro riders" anti Cannondale ad campaign ). A lot of the best value out there was light weight race oriented bikes. Semi-slicks, or tires with almost smooth centers and minimal side knobs. Adding more agro tires and longer travel forks, after market made them trail worthy. Kona might have been the best at bringing real, beefy, hard tails to market to answer the needs of real "all mountain" riders ( what most of us were doing with these dedicated race machines anyway ). Suspension technology caught up soon after while the race scene was drying up anyway.

Go look it up.... thinking about it now makes me all the more thankful for all the options we have now.


----------



## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

wafflebeast said:


> just to be clear, when they said "pick a wheel size and be a dick about it" in the how to be a mountain biker video, they were joking.


n i c e !


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> That is wrong.
> People buy cheap 26" hardtails being told they are capable mountain bikes, and the bikes have worse tyres than those "Semislicks" as you term them.


Re; Capable mtn bikes and tires....

My kona 26" h/t does all I want or demand for my type of riding so I'm not sure anyone can identify what's capable and what isn't w/o knowing the expectations of the rider that is buying a bike. Seems like a capable sales person asks how or what are you using the bike for and type of trails etc....

Tires can and should be changed or swapped out as needed or when finding a new preference. Tires won't define the bike I buy or the one I have.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WTF, it's no longer 2003? We have 29ers now with chainstays shorter than 18.5" and manufacturers that have actually engineered them with the wheelsize in mind.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Jayem said:


> WTF, it's no longer 2003? We have 29ers now with chainstays shorter than 18.5" and manufacturers that have actually engineered them with the wheelsize in mind.


The short c/s make the mountains look big in that picture. 

2003 was the last time I had money to spend on a bike but it worked out. Kona was stingy on supplies and shorted customers by going 16.5"


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## doctock993 (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow - a whole bunch of you should really get banned by the moderators - if for no other reasons than making moronic posts and harping at each other in multiple threads on multiple aspects of mtbr.com!

I don't ride a 29er because at 5'6" they feel like oversized circus bikes to me.
I'm not a good enough rider, nor do I ride enough to be able to significantly differentiate between a 26er and a 27.5er.
My inability to clear various part of trails is most likely due to lack of technique or cardio versus wheel size.

I am disappointed that the growth of the 27.5er seems to be marketing driven more than innovation driven.
While making money is necessary to keep a business open, I'd rather see the companies put effort and R&D money into creating the "next best" improvement in mountain biking over simply changing the wheel size.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

doctock993 said:


> Wow - a whole bunch of you should really get banned by the moderators - if for no other reasons than making moronic posts and harping at each other in multiple threads on multiple aspects of mtbr.com!




Your harping is easily the most digestible ... lol

I may be biased though because it strikes me you are pointing out the bike that you ride best, fits you best and does what you need is the way to go (for you).

No support mechanism for other's massaging your ego on "the right choice" needed. :thumbsup:


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

doctock993 said:


> I don't ride a 29er because at 5'6" they feel like oversized circus bikes to me.
> I'm not a good enough rider, nor do I ride enough to be able to significantly differentiate between a 26er and a 27.5er.
> My inability to clear various part of trails is most likely due to lack of technique or cardio versus wheel size.
> 
> ...


It sucks being short doesn't it? I am 5'4" and LOVE my 29er but still have my 26".

There is no "Technology" with 27.5 and I agree with you. Those who missed the 29" boat are pushing the hardest.

Remember, 27.5" is just 3.7" bigger than 26" with the same size tire. How about that for technology!!!!


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

During the World Cup DH race Rob Warner pointed out that Mega Avalanche was won on a 27.5 bike that had been fitted with 26er wheels to get better mud clearance. He also stated that he felt safe saying that there wouldn't be another WC DH won on a 26er.

Rob Warner said that.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

MOJO K said:


> During the World Cup DH race Rob Warner pointed out that Mega Avalanche was won on a 27.5 bike that had been fitted with 26er wheels to get better mud clearance.
> 
> Rob Warner said that.


26" ..... better mud clearance. 
Rob Warner said that.

The hits just keep on coming !!


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

MOJO K said:


> He also stated that he felt safe saying that there wouldn't be another WC DH won on a 26er.


Not exactly. Don't forget that Bryceland won the previous DH race on a 26" Santa Cruz V10.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

I run 650B wheels on my 29er


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Not exactly. Don't forget that Bryceland won the previous DH race on a 26" Santa Cruz V10.


Yes, exactly...The Syndicate put the 26ers away.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

I guess there was some mud?


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

MOJO K said:


> View attachment 912883
> 
> 
> I guess there was some mud?


A good photo showing the benefit of disc brakes ! 
(Not that the wheel will turn much - lol )


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

I bought a 2012 26" fs trail bike last year for less than half of original msrp. After 9 months, the frame cracked. The only 26' frame the manufacturer had left was a carbon fs 26" version of the same frame, which they sent me for warranty. So, don't be afraid to buy 26'. I suspect that if this frame cracks, they will have to send me a 27.5 trail bike. You might get upgraded by default with warranty. 

Another subject- While I was waiting for my warranty frame, my friend lent me his fs 29" XC bike. Wow! Talk about fun! The speed, climb, & rollover is amazing, but it has it's place which is xc going super fast type stuff. It can do the slow, tight, rock gardeny stuff, but it takes a lot of "body fu" to make it obey. 

Also, some people are just too big to ride smaller wheels. 

I love riding 29", but personal preference is 26" when the going is slow & techy. 26" is still fast on smoother terrain, so I don't feel the need to switch.

The whole 27.5 thing still blows my mind that it's becoming a "standard." But I haven't ridden one, so I can't whine too much.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

GSJ1973 said:


> Remember, 27.5" is just 3.7" bigger than 26" with the same size tire. How about that for technology!!!!


It's an inch bigger in diameter and 3.14" in circumference...........


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> It's an inch bigger in diameter and 3.14" in circumference...........


Now you're bored again and you're trying to start an argument.....


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

I normally ride an older stump jumper comp 29er and last week I pulled out the old schwinn homegrown for a ride. It ripped, it was so awesome and nimble. I think I just like having the diversity in my stable.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Now you're bored again and you're trying to start an argument.....


Those are the facts, nothing to argue about.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Now you're bored again and you're trying to start an argument.....


Not for nuthin', but who is the wildy inexperienced kid constantly posting in threads about 26" bikes endlessly regurgitating stuff they find online about 29ers? Seriously, for somebody with extremely limited trail time on an even more limited selection of equipment, you have completely saturated yourself in second-hand hype and can't seem to control yourself from spewing it constantly. Dude, you just started riding. You've ridden once when it was over 90 out. You don't think BMX is even a valid riding style, even though most of the best MTBers in the world have come from it. You've got pretty much zero time on different equipment. Your riding style appears to be pretty strictly limited to XC racer wanna-be. If anybody is way too into arguing on the internet with nothing to base their opinions on, it's you. Step away from the keyboard for a few years and get some saddle time on a bunch of equipment in a bunch of situations and come back with your own opinions based on real experience, not just what you copy off the internet that blows smoke up your ass for buying exactly what the local shop had the most of in stock.

Again, people will kick your ass on any wheel size, on any terrain, in a million different ways, over and over. Pure fact.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

turbodog said:


> It's an inch bigger in diameter and 3.14" in circumference...........





CannondaleF9 said:


> Now you're bored again and you're trying to start an argument.....





turbodog said:


> Those are the facts, nothing to argue about.


He was thinking of






.

-F


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not for nuthin', but who is the wildy inexperienced kid constantly posting in threads about 26" bikes endlessly regurgitating stuff they find online about 29ers? Seriously, for somebody with extremely limited trail time on an even more limited selection of equipment, you have completely saturated yourself in second-hand hype and can't seem to control yourself from spewing it constantly. Dude, you just started riding. You've ridden once when it was over 90 out. You don't think BMX is even a valid riding style, even though most of the best MTBers in the world have come from it. You've got pretty much zero time on different equipment. Your riding style appears to be pretty strictly limited to XC racer wanna-be. If anybody is way too into arguing on the internet with nothing to base their opinions on, it's you. Step away from the keyboard for a few years and get some saddle time on a bunch of equipment in a bunch of situations and come back with your own opinions based on real experience, not just what you copy off the internet that blows smoke up your ass for buying exactly what the local shop had the most of in stock.
> 
> Again, people will kick your ass on any wheel size, on any terrain, in a million different ways, over and over. Pure fact.


I am not an XC racer wannabe. You have no clue how I ride, and just because I started mountain biking three years ago doesn't mean I am terrible. The first year I was slow, but now that it is the third year I have become a lot faster. I am a very good climber, and a quick descender. 
Remember, don't judge me because I'm younger than you.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

Fleas said:


> He was thinking of
> View attachment 913172
> .
> 
> -F


Oh that makes more sense.
27" is still only an inch bigger in diameter than 26" and is two inches smaller in diameter than 29", it has the same circumference as every other wheel size. Case closed.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

I like bikes.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

onlycrimson said:


> I normally ride an older stump jumper comp 29er and last week I pulled out the old schwinn homegrown for a ride. It ripped, it was so awesome and nimble. I think I just like having the diversity in my stable.


MMMM Homegrown. I saw Jeff Lenosky at a demo and remarked that his bassboat black Homegrown might have been the prettiest bike I'd ever seen. Might have been sweat in his eyes...might have been a tear.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Remember, don't judge me because I'm younger than you.


Age has nothing to do with it, nor does how good you believe you are on a bike. It has to do with having very little experience but trying to come across as an expert of some kind, based mainly on spending too much time on the internet as far as I can tell.

Step away from the screen and go wear out some different bikes instead. Then you'll have an opinion worth sharing.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Many frames on sale on www.steepandcheap.com. Ends in 11hours.


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## swampboy62 (Feb 10, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> the wheel size debacle is 100% BS.


This.

Reminds me of my paddling friends, always arguing about whether canoes or kayaks are better. It's an artificial argument.

Steve Z


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

I'd say it has a lot to do with age. I've ridden 21 years and I don't know every single piece of equipment. Therefore I'm not going argue which is better because I don't know. I'll research and read. Where as someone this guys age is in the same boat but he'll argue about it until his last breath. Most everything is opinion. To keep trying to validate one's point is futile. Nobody is going to win. So drop it. It's just annoying to see turbo dog and cannondale9 argue over and over and over. At least turbodog has been riding long enough to see trends in real life. It's like gnats flying around one's face.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CF9 - I'm not intending to curb your stoke for riding in any way - it's great to see anybody getting into it. Instead of wasting your time and energy arguing with crusty old men about stupid geeky **** like this, you should be out there crushing miles until you and your bike are shattered, daily, before responsibility sets in. It's a way better payoff.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I am not an XC racer wannabe. You have no clue how I ride, and just because I started mountain biking three years ago doesn't mean I am terrible. The first year I was slow, but now that it is the third year I have become a lot faster. I am a very good climber, and a quick descender.
> Remember, don't judge me because I'm younger than you.


Many times on forums, you have to earn respect by either being/becoming a knowledgeable authority and truly helping others with spot-on advice, or a mix of sharing some of your experiences and what you've learned and being humble enough to ask some questions of others who can offer some feedback and perspective.

I've been riding motorcycles for 40 years and mini-bikes before that yet when I got a streetbike 10 years ago, I happened upon some m/c sites and forums, and landed on one focused more on safety.

I quickly realized everything I thought I knew about cycles, safety and riding dynamics etc... was nowhere close to my 40 year resume of riding. I figured a humble approach to posting comments and questions was the best way to respect others and gain some insights on valuable information where I had little street experience. 
I see other's that find forums like that and get chewed up a spit out simply because they belittle their own stake and value by the online persona they exhibit.

Just a few thoughts from a longtime bicyclist, motorcyclist and skier who is no more than intermediate in any of these endeavors even though some can become experts in a short few years.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> CF9 - I'm not intending to curb your stoke for riding in any way - it's great to see anybody getting into it. Instead of wasting your time and energy arguing with crusty old men about stupid geeky **** like this, you should be out there crushing miles until you and your bike are shattered, daily, before responsibility sets in. It's a way better payoff.


I try to go riding as much as I can. If I could ride more, it would be on dirt roads, not singletrack. 
I want to ride every day, but it just doesn't work out that way.


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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

Cheesecake is the best dessert. It is far superior to both ice cream AND brownies.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

I love lamp.


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## bad andy (Feb 21, 2006)

Dopamine said:


> Cheesecake is the best dessert. It is far superior to both ice cream AND brownies.


Yes, I agree. But if a cheesecake diameter is 26 cm does that make it any easier to eat vs 29 cm? Or just more fun? Or woudl you eat the 29 cm'er faster?


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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

bad andy said:


> Yes, I agree. But if a cheesecake diameter is 26 cm does that make it any easier to eat vs 29 cm? Or just more fun? Or woudl you eat the 29 cm'er faster?


I think conventional wisdom says that with the 26 cheesecake you start devouring it quickly but it's easier to stop too, however with the 29 cheesecake once you get rolling on noshing it down that momentum is tough to stop.


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

Dopamine said:


> Cheesecake is the best dessert. It is far superior to both ice cream AND brownies.


Horse apples.

Brownies WITH ice cream rules all!!!!!


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

dopamine said:


> cheesecake is the best dessert. It is far superior to both ice cream and brownies.


you take that back, dopamine! You take that back right now!


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## Germany_chris (Sep 14, 2009)

8iking VIIking said:


> Do you ride rigid singlespeed? Because gears and suspension can also be considered cheating depending on who you ask...


I do rigid single speed and 29 I'm also old enough to have ridden rigid 26 and I do feel like suspension and gears is cheating to a certain extent. My riding style was formed many years ago on rigid bikes and there is an art to it that is long gone. I had a 650B Lynskey more than a couple years ago when the only one pushing 650B was Kirk Pacenti it was fun but not more fun than my Blur or Univega but it was different. When it's time to replace the Univega which will be soon being that it spends more time in monstercross guise than mountain bike guise it'll be with a rigid 26 because in the end it's comfortable and right for my current european trails as well as my "home" east coast trails.


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## lofgrenb (Aug 5, 2014)

My husband is making me sell my 26" to get a 29er. May cause us a divorce when I say no.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

lofgrenb said:


> My husband is making me sell my 26" to get a 29er. May cause us a divorce when I say no.


You're too good for him....it was doomed from the start. You like brownies and ice cream?


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

lofgrenb said:


> My husband is making me sell my 26" to get a 29er. May cause us a divorce when I say no.


I forgot who posted it but they referenced a How to be a Mountain biker video and stated it was _only a joke_ when the video instructs shoppers to pick a wheel size and _be a dik about it_.

Unless they are just having spirited fun in a friendly debate, that's my new fallback answer to the persnickety wheel snobs. *Pick a wheel size and don't be a Dik about it *


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> If I could ride more, it would be on dirt roads, not singletrack.


Blasphemy.

I guess it explains a lot about your equipment preference though.


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## lofgrenb (Aug 5, 2014)

MOJO K said:


> You're too good for him....it was doomed from the start. You like brownies and ice cream?


Yep. I bike to eat more.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I try to go riding as much as I can. If I could ride more, it would be on dirt roads, not singletrack.
> I want to ride every day, but it just doesn't work out that way.


Why dirt roads over single track? 
Just curious.

With more than a few exceptions here, I'd imagine most dirt roads have gradual climbs and descents are are less techy and trafficked, maybe just safer all-around. 
Those would be some features that might appeal to some.
I suppose some people live in areas where there is an abundance of dirt roads but in those cases, I'd expect the want for trails just to have some differing scenery and terrain.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

bachman1961 said:


> Why dirt roads over single track?
> Just curious.
> 
> With more than a few exceptions here, I'd imagine most dirt roads have gradual climbs and descents are are less techy and trafficked, maybe just safer all-around.
> ...


There are only a few days in a week where there is someone to take me to the trails to ride. Other than that there are only many dirt roads near my house I can ride on.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> There are only a few days in a week where there is someone to take me to the trails to ride. Other than that there are only many dirt roads near my house I can ride on.


Why don't you just ride your bike to the trails...........?


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> Why don't you just ride your bike to the trails...........?


Because the trails are 10+ miles away and to get there involves many climbs both ways. It would be stupid to try to ride to the trails.
I guess you don't know the terrain of backcountry Vermont.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

I don't know anything about Vermont, but I do know riding back and forth to the trailhead will make you one fast dude! Nothing stupid about putting on extra miles if you have the time. Road time equates to more fun on the single track in my opinion.

Back in my college days, I raced a criterium in downtown Ft. Collins. The Cat 1 & 2 guys were amazing to watch. Travis Brown dominated the crit and handily won. Afterwards, we decided to go get a bite to eat before heading back home. On the way, here is Travis riding his road bike along the highway. Turns out he told his ride "he would rather ride home" and was heading back to Boulder.

That's just bad ass.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

Speed Goat said:


> I don't know anything about Vermont, but I do know riding back and forth to the trailhead will make you one fast dude! Nothing stupid about putting on extra miles if you have the time. Road time equates to more fun on the single track in my opinion.
> 
> Back in my college days, I raced a criterium in downtown Ft. Collins. The Cat 1 & 2 guys were amazing to watch. Travis Brown dominated the crit and handily won. Afterwards, we decided to go get a bite to eat before heading back home. On the way, here is Travis riding his road bike along the highway. Turns out he told his ride "he would rather ride home" and was heading back to Boulder.
> 
> That's just bad ass.


The thing is, by the time I would reach the trails, I would be exhausted from the ride there. 
I just got back from a 5.34 mile ride on some back roads with insanely steep climbs. Singletrack is much better, however.
I guess I will ride on the trails at my house this afternoon.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Because the trails are 10+ miles away and to get there involves many climbs both ways. It would be stupid to try to ride to the trails.
> I guess you don't know the terrain of backcountry Vermont.


What speedgoat said- I agree.

Use that as the excuse to ride and get in better shape. You won't likely have the time or energy to ride trials once you get there but doing a portion of that 10 miles each way or the whole 20 mi with some hills will really ramp up your strength. Were it me, I'd work up that 20-miler over a few outings.

It's not ridiculous to think you'll be riding to the trails and on the trails at some point in the future. :thumbsup:

I'm not a hardcore Dh'er or techy rider at all but I know core strength and hydration make for safer / better riding and maintaining fine motor skills / balance.

ie; Fatigue and dehydration is a bad combo.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

CannondaleF9 said:


> The thing is, by the time I would reach the trails, I would be exhausted from the ride there.
> I just got back from a 5.34 mile ride on some back roads with insanely steep climbs.


"Don't but upgrades; ride up grades." Eddy Merckx (***** roadie) said that. "Ride a bike, ride a bike, ride a bike." Fausto Coppi ( another ***** roadie) said that.

More truth in those two statements, and the goods to back them up, than a thousand pages of the interwebz crap we sling about.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Because the trails are 10+ miles away and to get there involves many climbs both ways. It would be stupid to try to ride to the trails.
> I guess you don't know the terrain of backcountry Vermont.


What would be stupid is to be surrounded by great riding and have a bunch of time on your hands, then choose to waste it in front of a computer arguing about stupid **** that you sorely lack first-hand knowledge of.

That's okay, internet biking is almost as rewarding as the real thing.

:thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> The thing is, by the time I would reach the trails, I would be exhausted from the ride there.
> I just got back from a 5.34 mile ride on some back roads with insanely steep climbs. Singletrack is much better, however.
> I guess I will ride on the trails at my house this afternoon.


Seriously, if 10 miles of pavement will wear you out, you really, really need a reality check as far as what you think you know about mountain biking. Really.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Seriously, if 10 miles of pavement will wear you out, you really, really need a reality check as far as what you think you know about mountain biking. Really.


Again it isn't all pavement, and it is uphill both ways (seriously). I would pass through two towns and a village to get there. I could ride my roadie there (with slick tyres), but on my mountainbike set up for the mountain, I don't think I could ride 20+ miles on the road (there and back) and put in a fun ride on the mountain.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

CannondaleF9 said:


> The thing is, by the time I would reach the trails, I would be exhausted from the ride there.
> I just got back from a 5.34 mile ride on some back roads with insanely steep climbs. Singletrack is much better, however.
> I guess I will ride on the trails at my house this afternoon.


Too much internet time. 10 miles to a trailhead is no big deal for a youngster, I used to do that on a daily basis before responsibilities and such tied me up, but those were pre-internet days.

Which reminds me- "back in my day" I used to walk 10 miles to school every day, *uphill both ways*, through blizzards and fending off packs of wolves, skinning and quartering the ones we slayed so we would have something to eat for dinner..........................


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Because the trails are 10+ miles away and to get there involves many climbs both ways. It would be stupid to try to ride to the trails.
> I guess you don't know the terrain of backcountry Vermont.


What? You can't go 50ft in Vermont without running into a trail.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> What? You can't go 50ft in Vermont without running into a trail.


Doubletrack. Not singletrack. 
Yes there are a lot of singletrack trails around here, but they're a maze and very easy to get lost in. That's why I go to Rutland or Brownsville where there are maintained trails with maps so I know where I am going.


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

Yeah.....

Somehow I doubt your claims to climbing prowess if 10 miles on the road is too much for you.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Doubletrack. Not singletrack.
> Yes there are a lot of singletrack trails around here, but they're a maze and very easy to get lost in. That's why I go to Rutland or Brownsville where there are maintained trails with maps so I know where I am going.


Come on man. Get a map and a compass, or a GPS unit, or maybe your smartphone. Pack plenty of food and water, and learn where your trails are.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Again it isn't all pavement, and it is uphill both ways (seriously). I would pass through two towns and a village to get there. I could ride my roadie there (with slick tyres), but on my mountainbike set up for the mountain, I don't think I could ride 20+ miles on the road (there and back) and put in a fun ride on the mountain.


These are things to work up to.
Take the MTB out and see how it goes.
If you don't want to shred a pair of $60 tires on pavement, get some cheapy knobs and start trying that road ride.
You'll be amazed, and so will your riding buddies the day you finally are able to ride to the trail, shred the entire loop, then haul yourself home. Sometimes we all bite off more mileage than we can handle, but I'll bet you don't know what that number is.

-F


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Doubletrack. Not singletrack.
> Yes there are a lot of singletrack trails around here, but they're a maze and very easy to get lost in. That's why I go to Rutland or Brownsville where there are maintained trails with maps so I know where I am going.


WTF happened to mountain biking?

:madman:


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

alphajaguars said:


> Yeah.....
> 
> Somehow I doubt your claims to climbing prowess if 10 miles on the road is too much for you.


I never said 10 road miles are too much for me, just I would either do the 10 miles there and a 5-8 mile ride on the trails only to have to ride back. It's really the ride back that worries me. (The ride back is all uphill except for the last 2 miles. Which means the way there is all downhill except for the first 2 miles).



turbodog said:


> Come on man. Get a map and a compass, or a GPS unit, or maybe your smartphone. Pack plenty of food and water, and learn where your trails are.


Don't have a smartphone. Even if I did there's no phone service out in Pomfret.



Fleas said:


> These are things to work up to.
> Take the MTB out and see how it goes.
> If you don't want to shred a pair of $60 tires on pavement, get some cheapy knobs and start trying that road ride.
> You'll be amazed, and so will your riding buddies the day you finally are able to ride to the trail, shred the entire loop, then haul yourself home. Sometimes we all bite off more mileage than we can handle, but I'll bet you don't know what that number is.
> ...


Yeah I don't want to wear down my Hans Dampfs. I could put the 2.2 Bontragers back on but what's the point for that? I just ordered a new "training" bike for the back roads. It still won't be a do all bike, however.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Fleas said:


> These are things to work up to.
> Take the MTB out and see how it goes.
> If you don't want to shred a pair of $60 tires on pavement, get some cheapy knobs and start trying that road ride.
> You'll be amazed, and so will your riding buddies the day you finally are able to ride to the trail, shred the entire loop, then haul yourself home. Sometimes we all bite off more mileage than we can handle, but I'll bet you don't know what that number is.
> ...


^^ That's pretty much it.

You'll get the hang of it an start to build rides with miles. Talking about it is fun when you can't be out there but if you have 3 or 15 hours of internet/computer time a week and are not 'onthejob', get out there and leave the keyboard behind.

Take a rain-slicker, a small pack for food or snacks and water, let others know where you are going and when you'll be back, take your ID and Emerg contact / cell phone or whatsoever precautionary stuff you can / need.
*This is what adults dream of or do when playing hooky from work !!*

When you get to that point, you'll come back and write a teeny bit of what you recall, highlights from many miles of riding. You'll be better rider, attain better fitness, be a better and more interesting writer. 

I'm a hypocrite and write a lot because I'm either hiding from chores around the house or bragging about all the errors I've made in 50-some years. Typing is good cognitive therapy for me too.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> WTF happened to mountain biking?
> 
> :madman:


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Doubletrack. Not singletrack.
> Yes there are a lot of singletrack trails around here, but they're a maze and very easy to get lost in. That's why I go to Rutland or Brownsville where there are maintained trails with maps so I know where I am going.


When hiking or biking, I found through the years , there were some friends that truly want to get out and look for any reason/situation go ride or hike rather than reasons or an excuse Not To. 
Even if you are stuck with the same boring miserable gravel roads, use them to time your route and chart your progress. This is one nice advantage to doing the same routes sometimes. Also, find a nearby steep climb or something challenging so even when you look at the clock and think;_ "gee, I don't have but maybe 35 minutes time..." _, you can still get out for a good work out. If it's an easy piece of land, crank up your speed some to feel the burn.


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## Marc2211 (Aug 6, 2013)

In Switzerland there are some awesome single track trails close to me that I *love* to ride - I'd ride them every day if I could as I theoretically could do on my way to work. The only issue is that I have a 650 meter road climb to get to start of the trail head. After the trail is through (about 25miles) I'll have climbed over 1500 meters. 

The initial climb was great on my road bike, but not so much on my Enduro bike. 

I do the climb at weekends and spend a day out in the semi-wilds, but I realised recently (after 4 years!) that there is a cable car to the start for about 3 bucks... many years ago I vowed I'd only ride down what I rode up, but well, tomorrow I'll be on the cable car at 8am ><


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## alphajaguars (Jan 12, 2004)

CannondaleF9 said:


> I never said 10 road miles are too much for me, just I would either do the 10 miles there and a 5-8 mile ride on the trails only to have to ride back. It's really the ride back that worries me. (The ride back is all uphill except for the last 2 miles. Which means the way there is all downhill except for the first 2 miles).
> 
> Don't have a smartphone. Even if I did there's no phone service out in Pomfret.
> 
> Yeah I don't want to wear down my Hans Dampfs. I could put the 2.2 Bontragers back on but what's the point for that? I just ordered a new "training" bike for the back roads. It still won't be a do all bike, however.


28 miles is not that long of a ride.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

alphajaguars said:


> 28 miles is not that long of a ride.


For me, who normally rides 7-8 miles a ride, 28 miles is very long for one day.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

turbodog said:


> View attachment 914250


^^^ Yep


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CannondaleF9 said:


> Yeah I don't want to wear down my Hans Dampfs. I could put the 2.2 Bontragers back on but what's the point for that? I just ordered a new "training" bike for the back roads. It still won't be a do all bike, however.


Every bike is a 'do it all' bike; the rider is the limiting factor. 
Tires (and every other component) aren't meant to be collected and preserved and fawned over, they're meant to be worn the hell out.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Every bike is a 'do it all' bike; the rider is the limiting factor.
> Tires (and every other component) aren't meant to be collected and preserved and fawned over, they're meant to be worn the hell out.


Tell that to the guys who wax their bikes over at the "how do you wash your bike" thread.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

blackitout said:


> Tell that to the guys who wax their bikes over at the "how do you wash your bike" thread.


Nothing wrong with riding a bike a lot AND maintaining it (zipwax is a detergent, fyi). Wearing parts out to the point of potential failure on the trail is caused by sheer laziness, poverty, or lack of mechanical aptitude IMO. I like to take good care of my stuff; bike, truck, car, motorcycle, chainsaw, guns, skis, whatever. It all gets used a lot and I don't like surprises.

Back on topic: CannondaleF9, just ride what you have close. Pavement, gravel, dirt, singletrack, 29, 26, whatever. It's better to ride what is out your door a lot, than long for places you would rather ride and don't. When I was your age I was riding the crap out of a Western Flyer 10 speed and having a ball. Also, learn how to work on your bike yourself and carry tools. That way you can at least spend 30 minutes of your Saturday replacing a pulley if need be.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Okay, one other point in support of what slapheadmofo is getting at.

*CannondaleF9:* just stop with all the incessant bickering and ride your damn bike instead of spending all day debating nuances of the sport on the internet! You will be a better rider because of it and someday you can move to where you have singletrack riding to your heart's content. You are young, plan wisely.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> Nothing wrong with riding a bike a lot AND maintaining it (zipwax is a detergent, fyi). Wearing parts out to the point of potential failure on the trail is caused by sheer laziness, poverty, or lack of mechanical aptitude IMO. I like to take good care of my stuff; bike, truck, car, motorcycle, chainsaw, guns, skis, whatever. It all gets used a lot and I don't like surprises.
> .


C'mon, that thing had plenty of miles left in it.  It was seriously the Derailleur That Would Not Die - I had a bit of an grudge match going with it for awhile. Finally my heel ended up rubbing clean through the upper body near where the barrel adjuster screws in and that was the end of it. Those old XTRs were tough as hell. :thumbsup:

When it comes down to it, the only really important part of a bike is the rider. I know this for a fact, cuz no matter what bike I get on now, 26, 27.5, 29, FS, HT, DH, whatever, I'll never ride as fast or well or far as I did on long 'outdated' technology, the deciding factor being that I don't ride almost daily anymore, and I don't do enough solid rides on a regular basis. The main thing that limits my riding level is lack of saddle time. Same goes for most I bet. So far they haven't figured out a way to bolt that **** on though.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> When it comes down to it, the only really important part of a bike is the rider. I know this for a fact, cuz no matter what bike I get on now, 26, 27.5, 29, FS, HT, DH, whatever, I'll never ride as fast or well or far as I did on long 'outdated' technology, the deciding factor being that I don't ride almost daily anymore, and I don't do enough solid rides on a regular basis. The main thing that limits my riding level is lack of saddle time. Same goes for most I bet. So far they haven't figured out a way to bolt that **** on though.


I don't disagree. I remember biking in Moab years ago and coming up on three guys off their bikes beside the trail. Two had newer modern FS bikes (don't remember what they were) and were messing with their bikes. The other guy was on an old beater rigid (Stumpjumper I think) and just looked anxious to ride.

As we passed them the two FS guys hollered "aren't you going to adjust your suspension before climbing?" I'm thinking what??? The other guy finally got frustrated I guess because we passed him coming back on a loop later and he was far ahead of the other two having a blast. When we came upon the other two they were totally out of breath and looking like they were having a rough time.

I think part of the story is that the first guy was passionate about riding and enjoying the surroundings, while the other two were too busy fiddling with their bikes trying to get them perfect and never really enjoyed the day.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

BumpityBump said:


> Nothing wrong with riding a bike a lot AND maintaining it (zipwax is a detergent, fyi). Wearing parts out to the point of potential failure on the trail is caused by sheer laziness, poverty, or lack of mechanical aptitude IMO. I like to take good care of my stuff; bike, truck, car, motorcycle, chainsaw, guns, skis, whatever. It all gets used a lot and I don't like surprises


Except we're not talking about a car, truck, motorcycle or chainsaw. It has nothing to do with laziness or lack of mechanical aptitude. It has to do with keeping it maintained to a certain point. I've oiled chains and cleaned derailleurs once in a couple years and that derailleur still works. It's been over 20 years of aggressive riding. There's maintaining and then there's obsessive maintaining thinking it's going to somehow keep something that is going to break last longer. Whether it be from a rock, tree branch or sand. It's excessive and if it breaks you get another one. If you can't do that then iit's about poverty. Ask how many guys who off road break things even though they maintain it. It happens because it gets beat on.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

blackitout said:


> Except we're not talking about a car, truck, motorcycle or chainsaw. It has nothing to do with laziness or lack of mechanical aptitude. It has to do with keeping it maintained to a certain point. I've oiled chains and cleaned derailleurs once in a couple years and that derailleur still works. It's been over 20 years of aggressive riding. There's maintaining and then there's obsessive maintaining thinking it's going to somehow keep something that is going to break last longer. Whether it be from a rock, tree branch or sand. It's excessive and if it breaks you get another one. If you can't do that then iit's about poverty. Ask how many guys who off road break things even though they maintain it. It happens because it gets beat on.


Oiled a chain once every 2 years? You must not ride much, the squeaking alone would drive me bonkers. That right there puts you in the lazy category in my mind. Might even put you in the running for 2nd or 3rd to the Dude.

I've broken plenty of stuff over the years, but you can also mitigate time spent on the trail dinking with components by keeping things in good working order. It's a no brainer really.

What one person calls obsessive, another calls regular maintenance. To judge others because they like to keep their bikes in a clean, lubed, maintained, condition is a myopic view. Feel free to carry on about it though.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree. I love when my bike performs at its best. No funny noises, suspension set up just right, properly lubed chain, everything in the cockpit at the right place, tires and air right for the certain ride.
I clean and oil the chain at least every 3rd ride. It takes only 10minutes and significantly improves the shifting. My rides are mostly between 1 - 5 hours long.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> To judge others because they like to keep their bikes in a clean, lubed, maintained, condition is a myopic view.


But on the flipside, the fact that I don't really sweat it when some random part ends up good'n'worn led you to judge me as either lazy, inept and/or poor.

Judge not...



I'm not saying there's anything wrong with taking care of your stuff; I just got tired of trying to keep everything pretty and perfect at some point and just wanted to ride more, so I went with that. You'd be surprised how long stuff will function with a minimum of attention, specially as far as cleaning. Besides wiping fork and shock sliding surfaces, or blasting the bike with a hose sometimes after a really messy ride, I can't say I really do any. Usually, dirt falls off by itself during the next ride anyway.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> But on the flipside, the fact that I don't really sweat it when some random part ends up good'n'worn led you to judge me as either lazy, inept and/or poor.
> 
> Judge not...


Ha ha, got me there I guess, but it was blackitout's callout that prompted it. Plus, that's a pretty far gone pulley you must admit. Based on your grudge match comment, I guess "stubborn" would have been the better judgmental descriptor. Cheers and ride on. :thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

BumpityBump said:


> Ha ha, got me there I guess, but it was blackitout's callout that prompted it. Plus, that's a pretty far gone pulley you must admit. Based on your grudge match comment, I guess "stubborn" would have been the better judgmental descriptor. Cheers and ride on. :thumbsup:


I can't argue with stubborn. Pretty much defines my mtb style.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

no the chain I keep oiled. The derailleur I don't disassemble and clean. That's just me. I worded the chain part wrong and knew it the second I did. i was driving on a 2 hour trip as I wrote that.


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## blackitout (Jun 30, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> But on the flipside, the fact that I don't really sweat it when some random part ends up good'n'worn led you to judge me as either lazy, inept and/or poor.
> 
> Judge not...
> 
> ...


I'm gonna have to go with this guys comment. You'd be surprised how long things will last when you don't treat it like a newborn baby. **** happens, things get wrecked. That's all a part of the game. Like he said I'd rather ride more and to say I don't ride much is judgement. I ride 4-5 times a week on black diamond trails in my area. Just because I don't clean my bike and disassemble the entire thing every 2 weeks doesn't mean I'm lazy. It means I know the capabilities of components and how much they can go through. 20 years is a long time and that was just basic Altus components. Maybe now that they are all made in China it's different. I don't know.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

blackitout said:


> Except we're not talking about a car, truck, motorcycle or chainsaw. It has nothing to do with laziness or lack of mechanical aptitude. It has to do with keeping it maintained to a certain point. I've oiled chains and cleaned derailleurs once in a couple years and that derailleur still works. It's been over 20 years of aggressive riding. There's maintaining and then there's obsessive maintaining thinking it's going to somehow keep something that is going to break last longer. Whether it be from a rock, tree branch or sand. It's excessive and if it breaks you get another one. If you can't do that then iit's about poverty. Ask how many guys who off road break things even though they maintain it. It happens because it gets beat on.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Germany_chris said:


> I do rigid single speed and 29 I'm also old enough to have ridden rigid 26 and I do feel like suspension and gears is cheating to a certain extent. My riding style was formed many years ago on rigid bikes and there is an art to it that is long gone. I had a 650B Lynskey more than a couple years ago when the only one pushing 650B was Kirk Pacenti it was fun but not more fun than my Blur or Univega but it was different. When it's time to replace the Univega which will be soon being that it spends more time in monstercross guise than mountain bike guise it'll be with a rigid 26 because in the end it's comfortable and right for my current european trails as well as my "home" east coast trails.


You know, I started on rigid with canti brakes and rode that way for a few years. But I've been riding long travel FS with disc brakes and a single front chainring for almost 15 years now. Interesting.

I think people get too wrapped up on their $3000 purchase, and automatically think something is better because they bought into it.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

I love this quote:

650B the new 29 er's. Looks like the tides are a changing. « Singletrack Forum



> 650B is starting to look like the biggest and most obvious marketing con job in the history of MTB.


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## CannondaleF9 (Nov 17, 2012)

turbodog said:


> I love this quote:
> 
> 650B the new 29 er's. Looks like the tides are a changing. « Singletrack Forum


Well, look who's back. Seriously, we were fine without you.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ (turbodog) 3 posts in a row = dancing with yourself. 

Written for background, not to divide riders by wheel size. 
Remember, we're the fricking oddballs in the office who still ride a bike.

700c = the original, and worldwide the most popular bicycle wheel size.-----> BSD 622 (mm) [baseline]

26" = Paperboy, beach cruiser wheel size. Tires picked for volume
for the original klunkers and early MTB rims by cutting/rolling Araya rims ---> BSD 559 (mm) [-63, or - 2.5"]

27.5" = newest marketing ploy to appease those who do not fit on a 29er,
or who seek the latest / greatest and are bi-(cycle)curiuos. -------------------> BSD 584 (mm) [-38, or - 1.5" ]

Based on true BSD the whole marketing of 27.5/650B is predicated 
on a rim size that is not even 1" greater than 26" ------------------------------> BSD (584-559) = [+25 mm, or + .98")

Look at the BSD (bead seat diameter) #'s, as they tell the true tale of size, and cut through the hype.
How can less than 1" be life changing? It's not.

If Gary Fisher, and the early promoters/adopters of 29ers had said they were building MTB's based on the original 700c rim, they'd have been shunned. Yet, that is exactly what they did and a large # of people, me included has been enjoying this retro-trend. (Being 6"3", and having ridden MTB's since 1985, I fit much better on the bigger wheels.)

Whatever you've got, take it off the hook today, and go ride the shiite out of it!!!


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## crewjones (Aug 24, 2007)

Jeez TurboDog- I like 26 inch wheels too but c'mon man, enough is enough!


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

I like bikes!!!


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

MOJO K said:


> I like bikes!!!


BMX is the best.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Flyin_W said:


> ^ (turbodog) 3 posts in a row = dancing with yourself.
> 
> Written for background, not to divide riders by wheel size.
> Remember, we're the fricking oddballs in the office who still ride a bike.
> ...


Bump, it has come to light that Schwinn made a bunch of crusier bikes with a 571mm ERD, thus for 2016 the bike industry will be pushing the revolutionary 26.75" wheel size. More playful than 27.5", but just different enough than a 29er to get you to buy an entirely new bike. (current 26" owners can simply buy new rims and tires)


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## Bryan1113 (Feb 21, 2013)

Actually thinking of picking up Trek Fuel 26er for shits and giggles...sold mine couple years ago and miss it


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## BlackCanoeDog (Jul 26, 2003)

hvrbreeze said:


> In the bombardment of new wheel sizes 27.5-650B, 29er.... So many choices, so much to look at and so many new bikes on the market...
> 
> As i get on my 26er i feel the tires have shrunk since the last time on the trail! But as I roll off into the wilderness and gett in to the zone i am struck; man are they fast and man they carve like crazy!
> 
> Has anyone else found that amid all the wheel size debates the good old 26er is still a heck of alot of fun?


Yep...like a Mini Cooper on a slalom course!


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I really like having a 26er and a 29er......worlds of difference between the 2 bikes, but both are still trail bikes to the core.

The difference between them makes switching back and forth between rides even more fun.


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## CGrr (Aug 30, 2010)

hvrbreeze said:


> In the bombardment of new wheel sizes 27.5-650B, 29er.... So many choices, so much to look at and so many new bikes on the market...
> 
> As i get on my 26er i feel the tires have shrunk since the last time on the trail! But as I roll off into the wilderness and gett in to the zone i am struck; man are they fast and man they carve like crazy!
> 
> Has anyone else found that amid all the wheel size debates the good old 26er is still a heck of alot of fun?


I have been riding my 26er a lot lately and agree.


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## borbntm (May 4, 2011)

Old Ray said:


> I really like having a 26er and a 29er......worlds of difference between the 2 bikes, but both are still trail bikes to the core.
> 
> The difference between them makes switching back and forth between rides even more fun.


Agree.....100% (even though riding a 26er is about as fashionable as a mullet to some folks out there)


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Old Ray said:


> I really like having a 26er and a 29er......worlds of difference between the 2 bikes, but both are still trail bikes to the core.
> 
> The difference between them makes switching back and forth between rides even more fun.


Me2. In fact, they are the same bike.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

borbntm said:


> Agree.....100% (even though riding a 26er is about as fashionable as a mullet to some folks out there)


That's the thing with me. I don't care about what "some folks" think is "fashionable." People like that mean nothing to me.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Me2. In fact, they are the same bike.
> 
> View attachment 942613
> View attachment 942612


That's quite a frame. I could envision adding one more bike to my quiver.......and that frame makes for a 2-fer.


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## bighit2005 (Jan 10, 2007)

I have two mountain bikes, a HT 29er & a full suspension trail bike 26". Both are great to ride for different reason.


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## C.M.S (Aug 28, 2009)

I have one bike !!! A 26er , and love it .
Me - "yeah it's a 26" when asked , them- " are you havin fun and enjoy riding " me- "hell yeah" them - "that's all that matters" and I agree , I love my rig.

The 29er bike snob that said "I could never go back to a 26er because 9er's are SOOOOO much better can F off !


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