# Website or App Designed for Planning Out a Trail to Build



## kestondowning_ (Jul 24, 2015)

Hello,
I am building a trail on certain section of my property. I was wondering if anyone knew a site or app where I could get a bird's-eye-view and plan out the building of the trail on said site or app. Thanks!


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

It's not ideal, but I have used Hillmap.


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## kestondowning_ (Jul 24, 2015)

Unfortunately.. basically like Google Maps. Thanks for the help though.


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

kestondowning_ said:


> Unfortunately.. basically like Google Maps. Thanks for the help though.


The advantage over Google Maps for me is that it allows you to plot a path on the map, and see the elevation change, distance, etc on both the elevation and sat map. The 'ArcGis' elevation map is often higher resolution than the Google terrain. Unfortunately it doesn't let you zoom in as far as I would like, and I think it uses the lower res Google data for the elevation profile.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I usually find a local source of GIS data, and get a map printed with topo and property lines. Then I basically draw on the map and use land nav skills. On the off chance I can actually get GIS data in digital form, I dump it into QGIS and mark it up, then load it on my GPS and follow the lines.


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## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

I have often thought about this, but I've never been able to decide what would be truly useful for planning out a trail. It seems like every project I take on has a different set of challenges which require a different approach, so a tool that would have worked great on one project might not be useful on the next. I'm curious to hear what "wish list" items other trail planners would like to see.

In the meantime, I muddle along with Google Earth (often using a topo and/or parcel map overlay) for planning, paired with Backcountry Navigator Pro for creating tracks and following tracks created in Google Earth.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

We only do this in the early phases of getting pre-approval for a new trail. To get final ok, we must have actually walked the route (often many times as we solve obstacles such as arch sites, geologic issues, or endangered species as we confer with those specialists during the process) and then present a GPS file that whatever land manager can load into their software for approval. Except for lidar maps, nothing else out there gives you the resolution to do this at a computer.


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## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

Here is a presentation I gave at this year's CA Trails and Greenways conference about LiDAR data and GIS. There are no notes but you should be able to get the general ideas from the slides. If you are willing to invest some time you should be able to find better data and better tools than Google Earth will probably give you.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/1324/files/lidar and gis for trail design.pdf

Some things to check out:
Welcome to the QGIS project!
https://coast.noaa.gov/inventory/?redirect=301ocm


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Yeah, my wishlist, having worked on one project where the city had 18" Lidar surveying done, is that 18" resolution Lidar be available for every project I work on. 


Now back to reality. Given decent topo, I can draw out a route that will get me close. As previously mentioned, at that point, you get on the ground and walk it out.


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## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

Drew, I am always wowed by the capabilities of these tools. I spent some time studying and playing with them myself but found I couldn't justify the long learning curve to become proficient. Where I work the terrain is mostly open (thin, widely spaced, or no vegetation) which means that time in the field pays off quickly. I can use the primitive, but simple and easy, tools to do basic layout, and then refine it with time in the field. I suppose if I got a big enough project it would be worthwhile to spend the weeks of studying and tinkering required to tie all of it together, but I'm not there yet. Perhaps after these tools have matured more I can take another look.


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## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

If you have terrain that allows you to easily get around and see long ways then time on the ground is probably more useful than time on the computer.

We recently laid out corridors for more than 20 miles of trails on a brand new heavily forested ~8000 acre land trust owned property. We used LiDAR and mapping tools extensively.

Here are some advantages we had:
-Much quicker time "getting the lay of the land." You can easily find cliffs, rock outcrops, waterfalls, benches, old roadcuts, etc that you could never find on a USGS topo or air photo in thick forested environments. 
-The property generally has hardwood (oak/madrone) dominated upper flatter areas and steep redwood dominated canyons. Much of the hardwood area has been harvested for firewood over the last 50 years and these areas typically regrew back very thick and brushy (almost every plant here sprouts when cut or burned). Using LIDAR to develop a map of canopy heights we were able to develop a very good proxy for "brushyness" and after a few weeks of calibrating ourselves, could almost predict the feel of the forested environment from the height patterns on the map.







-we tried to route trails when we could along the edge of the very steep canyons and flat upper areas. LiDAR makes it real easy to accurately test grades along these routes and also makes finding those slightly flatter spots for locating switchbacks very easy.
-Other areas of the property burned ~6 years ago and the regrowth is heinously thick on top of a jungle gym of fallen trees. We used LiDAR to do layout on one trail where measuring grade accurately with a clinometer was practically impossible. We mapped out the route on the computer, were able to clearly see potential control points (crossings, switchbacks, cliffs, etc.) and then hiked it with a georeferenced PDF making sure we were on target. It took about 6 hours to hike the mile. It would have taken a week to do without LiDAR. (pic is upside down for some reason but you get the idea)







-Having LiDAR and being able to quickly measure grades and accurately see the terrain allows you to evaluate a much wider range of potential alignments than "this one works" which I find is where I usually stop when faced with challenging layout conditions in the field. It is still not a substitute for time spent in the field, but it can make that time much more productive.

Some more LiDAR images from our recent project.


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## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

I definitely can see the payoff for learning the tools when faced with that kind of a puzzle to solve. Very cool!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

geographic information systems software is great stuff. I have been working with it for about 15 years in various capacities.

I went so far as purchasing a copy of the basic ArcGIS license (about $1500, FWIW). I also have a copy of Manifold GIS (which I also paid for, was less expensive, but I don't like as much as ArcGIS). I have used QGIS a good bit, too. It has some useful tools that I prefer in some cases. In some cases, I do still use Google Earth, as well as Topofusion. Each program has its own tools where it excels over the others.

My state offers free 12" LIDAR elevation data, which I have used on a few projects. 

The learning curve is definitely worthwhile. And QGIS is a very inexpensive way to start with it.


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## aero901 (Apr 11, 2012)

Google Earth (free & easy to learn) works great for smaller projects, as I assume OP is asking about. Another bonus is many of the same corridor planning methods laid out in Drew's excellent presentation can be carried over to that software. Google Earth is how I got my feet wet in trail planning. GIS/LIDAR is defiantly the way to go when planning a larger project. I've used GIS/LIDAR data to great effect at locations where travel ate up a big chunk of my time on a project (~2 hr round trip to/from the site). As noted in the presentation, computer work doesn't replace a boots on the ground approach to trail layout. It does save a huge amount of time by narrowing down the best places to start looking and becoming familiar with the terrain before stepping foot on site.

If you invest the time to learn the tools, they can be a huge time saver, allow greater alignment options, add a huge amount of professionalism to a project, and, most importantly, make a better finished trail. However, a little Google Earth planning, a clinometer, and flagging ribbon is still enough for most projects.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Harold said:


> My state offers free 12" LIDAR elevation data, which I have used on a few projects.
> 
> The learning curve is definitely worthwhile. And QGIS is a very inexpensive way to start with it.


I've just turned a very peculiar shade of green. It could be envy. Free Lidar data? Send some of those people to talk to the state of Tennessee would you?


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## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

Also - ESRI has a nonprofit program that gives your organization a license for ArcMAP for a pretty reasonable cost.

Take your mission to the next level with Esri's program for nonprofit organizations


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## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

Cotharyus said:


> I've just turned a very peculiar shade of green. It could be envy. Free Lidar data? Send some of those people to talk to the state of Tennessee would you?


Looks like you have a 50% chance of being in luck.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

drew p said:


> Also - ESRI has a nonprofit program that gives your organization a license for ArcMAP for a pretty reasonable cost.
> 
> Take your mission to the next level with Esri's program for nonprofit organizations


Yes, but since I use my copy to make a few bucks on the side from time to time, the nonprofit license is a no go.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

drew p said:


> Looks like you have a 50% chance of being in luck.
> 
> View attachment 1031681


Ah. That's ....very interesting. Sadly, one of the counties I'm looking for is not there. On the other hand, there's a municipal LIDAR project listed there that, supposedly, no one is supposed to have access to without paying the city, since they paid to have it done. I've been given access to a small section of it for a trail project, but it looks like I can get the whole thing here? Makes planning my next project for the city easy...


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## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

Maybe, this website is an inventory, it doesn't necessarily have links to the data but will tell you who has it. I've had luck in the past asking nicely and generally government/researcher types are happy to give up the data for projects that benefit the public good...


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I'd like to add that I was out for one day last week with Drew on his above mentioned project (on the stupid end of the clinometer) and can attest to the efficacy of the LIDAR data usage. As mentioned this area was a blotchy mixture of relatively open mixed conifer/hardwood forest and mature brush (read dense, tall and nearly impenetrable). He had all the goodies loaded in his smart phone and used the LIDAR info to steer around these brush patches and still stay within the desired trail corridor. The graphical imagery was a little pastel to my tastes but Drew had no trouble interpreting the canopy height and hence whether a section would be mostly forested or mostly brush. The LIDAR can even pick out single large trees which was handy for selecting landmarks.

Even on ridge tops the canopy (be it brush or trees) was so thick the nearby Pacific Ocean was very seldom in view. We had the sun on this particular day, on an overcast day it would be very easy to go in circles without a GPS or compass.

Here's a screen print of my GPS track in GE:








Outbound we were determining the path of least resistance and returning we were flagging a 7% +/- grade using the clino. Notice that the satellite imagery doesn't give much in the way of clues to what the topography is under the canopy. That trip covered 0.6 miles "as the crow flies"; the GPS length for the out and back hike was over 3 miles.

Here's a fairly open section of forest; Drew's in front of some fairly large madrone trees and that redberry is a toyon.









To the left; walkable, straight ahead; Hawaii, to the right; forget it:









Where's Drew?:









There's Drew!:









Drew has just marked a control point, I'm heading there with the grade stake:









This is a really, really big tan oak:









Really big:


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