# Does disabling features change the Class of the bike?



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

This is a listing I just saw on craigslist. The seller states:



> Off road speed of 45+mph *or use speed limiter for 20mph legal road use speed.*


So is it possible to change the classification of a bike simply by disabling some features? How is this legal? And more importantly, is the buyer to believe just because they disable the motor they will be able to ride it anywhere regular bikes can go?

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/bik/d/electric-fat-tire-stealth/6370634391.html























> Electric Fat Bike Ebike 72v 5000wOff road speed of 45+mph or use speed limiter for 20mph legal road use speed.
> 30 plus mile range per charge.
> New
> Black or white color available.
> ...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

5,000 watts makes it an e motorcycle. No way, shape, speed or form it will fit into a class 1 e bike category.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> This is a listing I just saw on craigslist. The seller states:
> 
> So is it possible to change the classification of a bike simply by disabling some features? How is this legal? And more importantly, is the buyer to believe just because they disable the motor they will be able to ride it anywhere regular bikes can go?
> 
> ...


Hate to break it to you, but even the most lame Class 1 ebike is limited to 20 MPH only by the software.

This is a great example of how it really shouldn't matter what the maximum capability of the bike is, what should matter is how the bike is ridden. How is that concept any different than the fact that you can buy any number of cars today that will do 200MPH right off the showroom floor? Why aren't we wringing our hands over that?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> This is a great example of how it really shouldn't matter what the maximum capability of the bike is, what should matter is how the bike is ridden. How is that concept any different than the fact that you can buy any number of cars today that will do 200MPH right off the showroom floor? Why aren't we wringing our hands over that?


Users on this site really need to stop making that sort of comparison, by that logic all motorcycles should be allowed on mutli-use trails because it is up to the user to not abuse the power on the trails.

Let me ask you Honkinunit - would you be okay with letting dirt bikes with ICE motors on the trails using this reasoning?


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

It is really easy to distinguish combustion engines from non-combustion vehicles. That would be a really easy distinguishing feature. Most people assume that moving pedal devices are bicycles so it is really hard to effectively ban ebikes without banning bikes. A throttle e-bike can be used as safely as a bicycle. I have no issues with vehicles capable of higher power, but combustion vehicles can be offensive in both noise and smell. It would be nice if users choose lightweight vehicles so that way they can yield easier. My one behavioral problem with combustion motorcycles on singletrack is that they do not yield. If heavier bikes (+100) were expected to yield to light bikes, then there would be a built in method of encouraging lighter bike use (better for trails) without having to blanket ban certain usages.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Users on this site really need to stop making that sort of comparison, by that logic all motorcycles should be allowed on mutli-use trails because it is up to the user to not abuse the power on the trails.
> 
> Let me ask you Honkinunit - would you be okay with letting dirt bikes with ICE motors on the trails using this reasoning?


Electric dirt bikes, yes. ICE, no. I think a weight limit would be reasonable. Say, nothing over 100 pounds. 20MPH speed limit uphill.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Cars are allowed to drive on roads where the limit is 50mph despite being capable of going faster.

(Puts trotters over head and runs away....)


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Actually, there are lots of eMTBs on the trail that are gearing limited to 20mph: I own two of them. Hardtail fatbikes with 52v Luna BBSHDs, IGHs, and geared to a maximum speed of 20mph at WOT on the flat.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

We shouldn't compare ourselves to cars. Automobile drivers kill around a million people (worldwide) every year and they are the/a leading cause of children dying. It would be great if automobile drivers had many more limitations and liabilities.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

Does it even matter? Who is going to stop you to check for its class?

Just sayin'. Not condoning.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Cars are allowed to drive on roads where the limit is 50mph despite being capable of going faster.
> 
> (Puts trotters over head and runs away....)


Roads laws are reinforced by cops, think we should also hire cops to police the trails?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Linktung said:


> Most people assume that moving pedal devices are bicycles so it is really hard to effectively ban ebikes without banning bikes.


Not any longer bikes with motors have become a thing on the road so people are used to the idea and if it's hard to determine if an e-bike is legal you can just ban all e-bikes instead.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Roads laws are reinforced by cops, think we should also hire cops to police the trails?


Personally, I do not want police on the trails giving speeding tickets.

There has to be a limit somewhere, and speed is the one thing we can all agree is the biggest issue at hand here. If an eBike is going to be allowed on a trail it has to be limited in someway, for now Class 1 only seems reasonable.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

LargeMan said:


> Does it even matter? Who is going to stop you to check for its class?
> 
> Just sayin'. Not condoning.


 Pretty much every Ranger I meet on the trails asks about the ebike unless I pre-empt them and tell them it's Class 1. Do I see them everytime I ride? No, but I see them often enough be a repeat offender and subject to big fines if I was cheating by riding an eMXer with pedals.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

LargeMan said:


> Does it even matter? Who is going to stop you to check for its class?
> Just sayin'. Not condoning.


Nobody because no enforcement agency has the manpower to do so which is why the BLM made the easier and common sense decision to ban all e-bikes rather than trust people to be responsible.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

The easier and only effective solution is to ban all bikes. Today I was talking to a fellow who works in the ebike industry for ten minutes on the trail before he caught on that I was on an ebike. Since my ebike didn't start out as an ebike, any bike could be an ebike regardless of manufacturer. Even if your bike doesn't have a motor, you are riding a class zero ebike.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Obviously it varies from state to state but as far as trend-setting California goes it's more than just the top speed; the labeling needs to match the bike's capabilities:

_"(c) On and after January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, *and motor wattage* of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type."_

The bike in the OP is busted on motor wattage alone.

BTW I just noticed Class 3 bikes require speedometers in CA and I'm not sure why.

And there's more:

_"24016. (a) An electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 shall meet the following criteria:

(1) Comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R. 1512.1, et seq.).

(2) Operate in a manner so that the electric motor is disengaged or ceases to function when the brakes are applied, or operate in a manner such that the motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism that, when released or activated, will cause the electric motor to disengage or cease to function.

(b) A person operating an electric bicycle is not subject to the provisions of this code relating to financial responsibility, driver's licenses, registration, and license plate requirements, and an electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle.

(c) Every manufacturer of an electric bicycle shall certify that it complies with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R. 1512.1, et seq.).

(d) A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 so as to change the speed capability of the bicycle, unless he or she appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in subdivision (c) of Section 312.5."_

The last bit says you can mod something (a little bit) but it must be re-labeled.

Somehow I really doubt those "Stealth"-style e-bikes come even close to meeting those CPSC standards.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Personally, I do not want police on the trails giving speeding tickets.
> 
> There has to be a limit somewhere, and speed is the one thing we can all agree is the biggest issue at hand here. If an eBike is going to be allowed on a trail it has to be limited in someway, for now Class 1 only seems reasonable.


Oh yeah, that was my point. Besides not wanting them on the trails, I don't want to have to pay for them.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

So you don't want to pay police to monitor speed but you do want to pay to train police on how to differentiate ebike classes, and man trailheads with officers to search out potential violators? I crashed my first mountain bike going 30 miles an hour, too bad it wasn't speed limited.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Linktung said:


> So you don't want to pay police to monitor speed but you do want to pay to train police on how to differentiate ebike classes, and man trailheads with officers to search out potential violators? I crashed my first mountain bike going 30 miles an hour, too bad it wasn't speed limited.


Right on. This is an example of a huge "Duh" around ebikes that haters can't grasp. A Class 1 ebike's 20MPH limit really only applies on flat ground. Most pedal assist ebikes won't power you at 20MPH on a 20% grade for example. On flat ground, yes, you can maintain 20MPH. On a downhill, you go the SAME SPEED you would on any other MTB. 20-30-40-50, whatever a "regular" MTB would go. Once you are past 20MPH, the ebike does nothing for you.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

The ones who grasp that concept say that they are scared of uphill ebikers. Assuming that I was faster on my class 3 ebike then the fastest class zero ebikers, I am still slower on the uphill then my canine companions.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Linktung said:


> So you don't want to pay police to monitor speed but you do want to pay to train police on how to differentiate ebike classes, and man trailheads with officers to search out potential violators? I crashed my first mountain bike going 30 miles an hour, too bad it wasn't speed limited.


Nope, that is why I don't think any type of ebike should be allowed on non-motorized trails.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Right on. This is an example of a huge "Duh" around ebikes that haters can't grasp. A Class 1 ebike's 20MPH limit really only applies on flat ground. Most pedal assist ebikes won't power you at 20MPH on a 20% grade for example. On flat ground, yes, you can maintain 20MPH. On a downhill, you go the SAME SPEED you would on any other MTB. 20-30-40-50, whatever a "regular" MTB would go. Once you are past 20MPH, the ebike does nothing for you.


Unless it is modified or not a class 1 or 2 ebike, that is what the bicycle haters can't grasp. What would keep them off the trails, all they have to do is claim they are class 1 as there is no way to distinguish them. And most mountain bikers can't maintain 20MPH on flat ground for long. Though to be fair, the trails I ride will send you into a tree if you try to maintain 20 MPH.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Pretty much every Ranger I meet on the trails asks about the ebike unless I pre-empt them and tell them it's Class 1. Do I see them everytime I ride? No, but I see them often enough be a repeat offender and subject to big fines if I was cheating by riding an eMXer with pedals.


30 years of mountain biking and many thousands of trail miles and I have yet to see a single ranger on the trail, ever. I don't want trail cops or speed limits or motorized bicycles on trails designated as motor-free zones, escaping those things is one of the main reasons why trail riding (and hiking) is so appealing.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> 30 years of mountain biking and many thousands of trail miles and I have yet to see a single ranger on the trail, ever. I don't want trail cops or speed limits or motorized bicycles on trails designated as motor-free zones, escaping those things is one of the main reasons why trail riding (and hiking) is so appealing.


I'm guessing you don't ride near an urban area in California?

Speaking for NorCal in the riding areas surrounding the SF Bay Area you'll likely see a ranger and in some of those areas that ranger will have a radar gun.

True that you probably won't see them deep in the woods on ST but it does happen.

I'm pretty friendly with some State Park rangers and they'd love to be out patrolling ST trails more often but policy does not let them. They need to be able to get back to their vehicles ASAP should the need arise. (better com, 1st aid, long guns, etc) Also a single ranger might be patrolling 2 parks a 30 minute drive apart.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> I'm guessing you don't ride near an urban area in California?


Nope, never have. I've ridden in plenty of urban areas though and haven't run across any trail cops, yet. I'd be happy if it stayed that way.

Trail cops with radar guns? That is a nightmarish image.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Nope, that is why I don't think any type of ebike should be allowed on non-motorized trails.


Well if there is no enforcement of the rules, then I have no problem with rules banning ebikes either.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> 30 years of mountain biking and many thousands of trail miles and I have yet to see a single ranger on the trail, ever. I don't want trail cops or speed limits or motorized bicycles on trails designated as motor-free zones, escaping those things is one of the main reasons why trail riding (and hiking) is so appealing.


Without trail cops how do you envision your bike ride will be motor bicycle free? Not only would you need trail cops, they would have to be extensively trained on how motors can be hidden so you would not be mistaken for a motorized bicycle and the rules can be properly enforced.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> 30 years of mountain biking and many thousands of trail miles and I have yet to see a single ranger on the trail, ever. I don't want trail cops or speed limits or motorized bicycles on trails designated as motor-free zones, escaping those things is one of the main reasons why trail riding (and hiking) is so appealing.


I can't recall the last time I saw a ranger on a trail, if ever. Grew up mtbing in the early 90's in the SF Bay Area (Mt Diablo), then up to Chico and now in Lake Tahoe. Rangers are as rare of a site as emtbs are.

Getting to escape all those things you find on the road/city (too many people, motorized vehicles, cops) is also why I find trail riding so appealing.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Linktung said:


> Without trail cops how do you envision your bike ride will be motor bicycle free?


Got no trail cops now and they're motor-free, that's about how I envision it.

Times will change of course but if electric bikes are prohibited from a trail system violators will be fairly conspicuous and I believe social pressure alone will prevent the majority of people from abusing the law. For sure that would be a lot easier to enforce than attempting to decipher whether someone's machine has x or y amount of watts.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Without trail cops how do you envision your bike ride will be motor bicycle free?


No trail cops where I live and yet the overwhelming majority of motor users somehow manage to stay off MTB trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Electric dirt bikes, yes. ICE, no.


So a 40HP Alta E-MX is okay, but a 3HP CRF50 is a no go?

I call BS.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

I have never seen a combustion vehicle out of bounds but ebikes are fairly common, and that is just the ebikes with easily seen motors. Unless you go around cutting into people's frames and hubs it is really hard thing to get an accurate read on. Upon questioning an out of bounds ebiker, they mention that there is no social pressure against them anywhere. You could go on Strava and find some ebikers in your area by filtering that use.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Why are engine's banned in the first place? Noise and smell are a huge reason. Higher power often slows the bike down on sigletrack because it adds weight. My dirt bike buddy recently rode a pedal assist ebike and found it faster then his combustion vehicles more often then not.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Linktung said:


> You could go on Strava and find some ebikers in your area by filtering that use.


Not in my area, not yet anyway.



slapheadmofo said:


> So a 40HP Alta E-MX is okay, but a 3HP CRF50 is a no go?
> 
> I call BS.


Yep.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Linktung said:


> The easier and only effective solution is to ban all bikes. Today I was talking to a fellow who works in the ebike industry for ten minutes on the trail before he caught on that I was on an ebike. Since my ebike didn't start out as an ebike, any bike could be an ebike regardless of manufacturer. Even if your bike doesn't have a motor, you are riding a class zero ebike.


 Dude, what? You just can't make **** up. Bike are human powered. E bikes are something else. I am NOT riding a class zero e bike. In order to be an e bike it need to have a motor. And yes, you can convert a bike to an e bike. It's still not a class zero e- bike, no such thing.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Dude, what? You just can't make **** up. Bike are human powered. E bikes are something else. I am NOT riding a class zero e bike. In order to be an e bike it need to have a motor. And yes, you can convert a bike to an e bike. It's still not a class zero e- bike, no such thing.


Cool, I believe you buddy, but do you mind if I cut into your seattube to make sure?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Linktung said:


> Cool, I believe you buddy, but do you mind if I cut into your seattube to make sure?


 Those roadie tiny motors? Just sit by the trail side with a thermal scanner.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Why are engine's banned in the first place? Noise and smell are a huge reason. Higher power often slows the bike down on sigletrack because it adds weight. My dirt bike buddy recently ride a pedal assist ebike and found it to faster then his combustion vehicles more often then not.


Am I to understand from this post that according to your friends personal experience a pedal assist eBike is faster on single track than a motorcycle? I just want to clarify that I read that correctly.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Yeah, in certain terrain he felt faster and more capable on the pedal assist. He lacks the stamina to pedal up most hills and he was riding slowerthen many racer fellows. The combustion vehicles on singletrack that I have encountered are not usually going fast but they sstink and are noisy.

PS...execept for that snowmobile that almost took me out last year. There is nothing more dehumanizing then being forced off the trail and into a snowbank without the operator even apologizing for going way to fast around a blind corner. The crazy thing is the NFS rules state that snowmobiles aren't expected to yield so he wasn't technically violating any rules.

Second edit...ebikes are banned from riding the snowmobile trail where the operator nearly killed me, so yeah, crazy world.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Yeah, in certain terrain he felt faster and more capable on the pedal assist. He lacks the stamina to pedal up most hills and he was riding slowerthen many racer fellows. The combustion vehicles on singletrack that I have encountered are not usually going fast but they sstink and are noisy.
> 
> PS...execept for that snowmobile that almost took me out last year. There is nothing more dehumanizing then being forced off the trail and into a snowbank without the operator even apologizing for going way to fast around a blind corner. The crazy thing is the NFS rules state that snowmobiles aren't expected to yield so he wasn't technically violating any rules.
> 
> Second edit...ebikes are banned from riding the snowmobile trail where the operator nearly killed me, so yeah, crazy world.


Makes no sense to me that an eBike cannot ride the same trail a snowmobile can.... unless the governing body who made that rule feels that snowmobiles cause less dmg to the actual ground since they ride on the snow and the snow protects the trails...... Seems odd to me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Makes no sense to me that an eBike cannot ride the same trail a snowmobile can.... unless the governing body who made that rule feels that snowmobiles cause less dmg to the actual ground since they ride on the snow and the snow protects the trails...... Seems odd to me.


Not about the 'damage', as you said, there's snowcover. More of a safety thing with mixing user speeds. People run highway speeds on snowmo trails all the time; they're no place for bikes, e-bikes, skiers, hikers, or anything slow moving. You're just putting yourself and others in danger by mis-using them. Also, in many places, landowner permission is strictly limited to snow machines and only during certain times of year.

Of course, there are some trail systems that don't mind allowing multi-use of their groomed trails, but for the most part IME, snowmo trails are a no-go unless you're on a snowmo. They tend to operate quite differently than regular dirt trails.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Those roadie tiny motors? Just sit by the trail side with a thermal scanner.


Haha, nah I will put jbweld and chazpat in charge of the thermal scanner. As they do not want to see trail cops or electric bicycles they must be volunteering to police it themselves.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Nah, all snowmobile trails in NFS allow bikes, it's the NPS that bans bikes (but allows cc skiing)


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> So a 40HP Alta E-MX is okay, but a 3HP CRF50 is a no go?
> 
> I call BS.


I don't give a crap what the bike's maximum output is, as long as they ride within the rules. Do you care how much horsepower the car has that is going 30MPH down your street?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Nah, all snowmobile trails in NFS allow bikes, it's the NPS that bans bikes (but allows cc skiing)


If you say so.

https://gearjunkie.com/fat-biker-fined-snowmobile-trails


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Linktung said:


> I have never seen a combustion vehicle out of bounds but ebikes are fairly common, and that is just the ebikes with easily seen motors. Unless you go around cutting into people's frames and hubs it is really hard thing to get an accurate read on. Upon questioning an out of bounds ebiker, they mention that there is no social pressure against them anywhere. You could go on Strava and find some ebikers in your area by filtering that use.


That is huge part of the marketing of the ebike industry, pay-no-attention-to-the motor, it's just a bicycle.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> I don't give a crap what the bike's maximum output is, as long as they ride within the rules. Do you care how much horsepower the car has that is going 30MPH down your street?


Hope, nor do I care whether it's electric or ICE.

You are the one saying you'd accept a 40HP motocross bike while disallowing a 3HP kiddie bike on the same trail. Makes no sense.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> I don't give a crap what the bike's maximum output is, as long as they ride within the rules. Do you care how much horsepower the car has that is going 30MPH down your street?


 Not driving my car on multi use, off road trails. Some trail rules state" no motorized vehicles" like MA. Others only allow 250 watt class 1 e bikes. So there's that.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I'm feeling like emtb's are just a bad experiment in marketing and serves no purpose but to disenfranchise mountain bikers from legitimate trail use. Who are the marketers really selling these products to? The technically fit who are looking to take it easy now and then or the unfit wanting to take a spin around the mountain for a quick joy ride? In either case the potential buyer probably has better options than an emtb, while the only advantage an emtb could potentially provide them is the ability to ride along with their buddies on a mountain bike accessible trail. Otherwise they could buy themselves a faster (cheaper) alternative ebike/mx bike that would get them around much faster and with a lot less work.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> I'm feeling like emtb's are just a bad experiment in marketing and serves no purpose but to disenfranchise mountain bikers from legitimate trail use. Who are the marketers really selling these products to? The technically fit who are looking to take it easy now and then or the unfit wanting to take a spin around the mountain for a quick joy ride? In either case the potential buyer probably has better options than an emtb, while the only advantage an emtb could potentially provide them is the ability to ride along with their buddies on a mountain bike accessible trail. Otherwise they could buy themselves a faster (cheaper) alternative ebike/mx bike that would get them around much faster and with a lot less work.


How many eMTBs have you ridden?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Lemonaid said:


> So is it possible to change the classification of a bike simply by disabling some features? How is this legal? And more importantly, is the buyer to believe just because they disable the motor they will be able to ride it anywhere regular bikes can go?


All of the ebike laws are based on the wattage of the motor claimed by the manufacturer, in the EU it's the nominal wattage, it's not specified in the Class 1-3 or other US federal/state legislation, but generally assumed to be nominal as well. There isn't anything related as to how they arrive at that.

In the EU, there is a type approval process where a manufacturers claims are tested and certified. In the US, there are no requirements.

So, as I read it, it's all based on the motor specification and if the ebike has a throttle or not. It doesn't matter if you have your controller set to only output 5w, only ride it at 10mph or don't use the throttle, the type of ebike you have is determined by those two pieces of hardware and at what speed your software cuts the power off. That's it.

Manufacturers are liable for mislabling their products, and the fines can be substantial, which hasn't seemed to have stopped anyone yet.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> How many eMTBs have you ridden?


What does that matter? Do you think the emtb makers are marketing these bikes with the express intent to have the buyers ride on the same trails as normal mountain bikes? If not, they could market motorized trail legal bikes that don't have any wattage restrictions. Who are they marketing to?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> What does that matter? Do you think the emtb makers are marketing these bikes with the express intent to have the buyers ride on the same trails as normal mountain bikes? If not, they could market motorized trail legal bikes that don't have any wattage restrictions. Who are they marketing to?


It matters because you can't possibly understand what an eMTB is unless you ride one.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> It matters because you can't possibly understand what an eMTB is unless you ride one.


I understand what a surfboard is; never ridden one. 
Same with a camel.

It's really not all that hard to get the concept, let alone impossible.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I understand what a surfboard is; never ridden one.
> Same with a camel.
> 
> It's really not all that hard to get the concept, let alone impossible.


You have no idea what it takes to ride a surfboard or a camel by looking at one. BTW, I've ridden both!

Same with a pedal assist eBike. If haters were forced to really ride one, a good one with a Shimano/Bosch/Yamaha/Brose drive before they went off, 90% of them wouldn't be haters. And that's why unless someone has actually spent a significant amount of time on a quality pedal assist eBike (multiple rides in multiple conditions), I really don't care what they think about them.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> You have no idea what it takes to ride a surfboard or a camel by looking at one. BTW, I've ridden both!
> 
> Same with a pedal assist eBike. If haters were forced to really ride one...
> 
> ...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> You have no idea what it takes to ride a surfboard or a camel by looking at one. BTW, I've ridden both!
> 
> Same with a pedal assist eBike. If haters were forced to really ride one, a good one with a Shimano/Bosch/Yamaha/Brose drive before they went off, 90% of them wouldn't be haters. And that's why unless someone has actually spent a significant amount of time on a quality pedal assist eBike (multiple rides in multiple conditions), I really don't care what they think about them.


I own a 750w e-bike (though it's mostly ridden by my wife). It's exactly what I imagined it would be before I bought it, actually. I'm confused by your statements here - it's very easy to understand what riding an e-bike is like. You don't need a ton of experience with them at all, or really any experience. There are certainly some subtle differences between torque/cadence sensors and mid vs. hub drive and such, but basically... it's like riding a bike but much easier/faster.

Pretty simple.

-Walt


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> ...it's like riding a bike...


Thanks, that's all there is to say.

But many still don't understand it.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Okay, first, lose "haters' from your vocabulary here.
> 
> That goes for the rest of you too.
> 
> Any posts using 'haters' or any variation of it will be deleted from here on in; it's unnecessarily divisive and painfully whiny. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean you immediately need to start crying about being 'hated'. Enough already.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I get tired of being called that and got fed up and returned it yesterday. I'd prefer it not be used by any of us. I don't hate ebikes, I just have a different opinion as to where they should be used.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

eFat said:


> Thanks, that's all there is to say.
> 
> But many still don't understand it.


Taking a quote out of context, very classy. Why on earth do you guys insist on trying to alienate people?

-Walt


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> Taking a quote out of context, very classy.


So you didn't mean that riding an e-bike is a same than a bike but easier?



> Why on earth do you guys insist on trying to alienate people?


Quite the opposite I would say. "We" are more for unifying people.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

eFat said:


> So you didn't mean that riding an e-bike is a same than a bike but easier?


And faster. Why did you clip that part? That's the important part.

Let me be clear: I have actual influence on e-bike trail access here (the people who make the rules know me and care what I have to say and I show up to meetings). When people are intentionally obtuse or rude, it makes me even less likely to advocate for e-bike access. If you want legal access, you want to make friends, not enemies.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Back to the OP: if I unplug the throttle on my Class 2, does that make it a legal Class 1?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> Back to the OP: if I unplug the throttle on my Class 2, does that make it a legal Class 1?


Does taking the clip out of a pistol no longer make it a handgun?

(Using this analogy because most rangers carry sidearms)


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Back to the OP: if I unplug the throttle on my Class 2, does that make it a legal Class 1?


As I interpret the laws, and I'm not a lawyer ofc, no, if you have a throttle on your bike, even if you don't use it, you still have a throttle on your bike, which makes it class 2. You'd have to remove it to make it a class 1. The reality on the ground is that if you're pedaling, no one would ever know.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

IIRC the law in CA says something about having a motor that is controlled by a throttle, not simply having a throttle on the bike. If the throttle is disconnected it does not control the motor which would seem to put me in compliance. Unplugged, the throttle is as effective as putting it on a non eMTB: you can twist it all you want, but it ain't gonna make you move. Sure I could stop on the trail and plug it back in, but I could also keep a throttle in my pack and slap it on the bike on the trail too, neither of which I do. 

I ask because being legal here in CA is important to me and I have been just unplugging the throttle when I enter the park from the road.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> Does taking the clip out of a pistol no longer make it a handgun?
> 
> (Using this analogy because most rangers carry sidearms)


 Does putting a plug in the mag make it legal for hunting where you are only allowed 5 rounds? It's the same rifle with only a temporary, quickly reversible change that can be made in the field relying only on the user to obey the rule since there are few Rangers. Seems like a not too dissimilar comparison.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> IIRC the law in CA says something about having a motor that is controlled by a throttle, not simply having a throttle on the bike. If the throttle is disconnected it does not control the motor which would seem to put me in compliance. Unplugged, the throttle is as effective as putting it on a non eMTB: you can twist it all you want, but it ain't gonna make you move. Sure I could stop on the trail and plug it back in, but I could also keep a throttle in my pack and slap it on the bike on the trail too, neither of which I do.
> 
> I ask because being legal here in CA is important to me and I have been just unplugging the throttle when I enter the park from the road.


I think you're right. I was relying on my faulty memory and I'm wrong. It obviously all depends on which laws you have to deal with, but in other states like UT & CO, it reads something like "the motor or electronics provides assistance while not pedalling", which isn't the case with a disconnected throttle, which would make it a class 1.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Harryman said:


> I think you're right. I was relying on my faulty memory and I'm wrong. It obviously all depends on which laws you have to deal with, but in other states like UT & CO, it reads something like "the motor or electronics provides assistance while not pedalling", which isn't the case with a disconnected throttle, which would make it a class 1.


argg... again with the slippery slopes.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Not a lawyer either, but think that to satisfy yourself, disconnecting the throttle is adequate. However, if they ever start regulating e-bikes with actual enforcement (not happening in the part of CA where I reside), one would need to remove it from the bike.The idea being that you could just disconnect it when you saw a ranger if it's still on the bike. As WH says, it could just be in your backpack; I would think you could get away with that. I've wondered the same thing about trails in CA with fire road ascents which are legal, and have killer downhill singletrack. Could you ride to the top, then remove the battery and ride the ST. Have ridden only MTB's there, but may try an e-MTB. Any opinions?


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Since we're talking California here; I wonder how this applies to the throttle situation:

_"(d) A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 so as to change the speed capability of the bicycle, unless he or she appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in subdivision (c) of Section 312.5."_

To be safe I'd say you might be OK if you also change the label.

That's from here.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

MP, good point.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> Since we're talking California here; I wonder how this applies to the throttle situation:
> 
> _"(d) A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 so as to change the speed capability of the bicycle, unless he or she appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in subdivision (c) of Section 312.5."_
> 
> ...


 I do not think you need to change the label based upon this particular rule: adding or removing a throttle does not change "the speed capability". Top speed under assist does not change, only how that speed is controlled, PAS or throttle.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> I do not think you need to change the label based upon this particular rule: adding or removing a throttle does not change "the speed capability". Top speed under assist does not change, only how that speed is controlled, PAS or throttle.


Point being is that if you have a legitimate/legal e-bike in California it will have a label in at least 9pt Arial font that says it's a Class 1, 2 or 3. It will still say Class 2 if that's what it was originally.

_"(c) On and after January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type."_

So maybe you can convince the LEO you're DIY or pre-2017 but if you've been stopped for e-biking where it's prohibited/regulated and the LEO has a quota to meet he/she'll be using that as a basis for a citation.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

My ebikes are DIY, built in Oct of 2015 by adding BBSHDs to Bikes Direct fatbikes. I am neither a manufacturer nor a distributor, so this does not apply to me. As for convincing LEOs, if they cannot tell from the zip tied wires and the coffee can of a motor that my bike is DIY, I am sure a judge will. And I never ride where eMTBs are prohibited, only where they are controlled. And I seem to be in compliance by simply unplugging the throttle......


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> My ebikes are DIY, built in Oct of 2015 by adding BBSHDs to Bikes Direct fatbikes. I am neither a manufacturer nor a distributor, so this does not apply to me. As for convincing LEOs, if they cannot tell from the zip tied wires and the coffee can of a motor that my bike is DIY, I am sure a judge will. And I never ride where eMTBs are prohibited, only where they are controlled. And I seem to be in compliance by simply unplugging the throttle......


You're making a good case for DIY e-bikes not being legal.

BTW if it's DIY you're the manufacturer.

I haven't done it yet but I intend to print a label for my otherwise legal DIY bike. Thinking of registering my less-than-legal bike as a moped.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

WoodlandHills said:


> My ebikes are DIY, built in Oct of 2015 by adding BBSHDs to Bikes Direct fatbikes. I am neither a manufacturer nor a distributor, so this does not apply to me. As for convincing LEOs, if they cannot tell from the zip tied wires and the coffee can of a motor that my bike is DIY, I am sure a judge will. And I never ride where eMTBs are prohibited, only where they are controlled. And I seem to be in compliance by simply unplugging the throttle......


Sounds like we're entering Dangerous Waters here. The argument can be made then that every mountain bike could potentially be e bike.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Moe Ped said:


> You're making a good case for DIY e-bikes not being legal.
> 
> BTW if it's DIY you're the manufacturer.
> 
> I haven't done it yet but I intend to print a label for my otherwise legal DIY bike. Thinking of registering my less-than-legal bike as a moped.


Less-than-legal or more-than-legal?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> You're making a good case for DIY e-bikes not being legal.
> 
> BTW if it's DIY you're the manufacturer.
> 
> I haven't done it yet but I intend to print a label for my otherwise legal DIY bike. Thinking of registering my less-than-legal bike as a moped.


 I do not understand your point about being a good argument for DIY ebikes being illegal, can you explain a bit more about your thinking?

I am not so sure that building a DIY eMTB for my own use makes me a manufacturer as defined in CA statute, but even if it did, I am exempt since I built mine 15 months before Jan 1 2017. This law and its labeling requirements do not apply to me since I am grandfathered in and I comply with the laws in effect in CA in Oct of 2015. I also comply with Class 1 or Class 2 depending on whether the throttle is operational, or so it seems.

If you have a less than legal ebike, register it as a moped by all means, alternatively, you could build a fully legal one instead and not register it. This is the route I took with my eMTBs as well as with my recumbent street bike which is a legal Class 3. (Lightning P-38 with a Magic Pie v5 @ 52v)


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Lemonaid said:


> Sounds like we're entering Dangerous Waters here. The argument can be made then that every mountain bike could potentially be e bike.


Any argument can be made for anything.

Hikers and equestrians may very well be infantrymen and cavalry of the local militia. Very dangerous.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

DIY bikes are fine as long as you use an approved tested and verified kit. Something like Bionx. This is like installing CARB legal parts on your car.

Anyway, slap a 250 watt sticker on the side of it just like the ALL the main brands do and go ride. There is not a single bike from a major manufacturer that is under 500 watts these days. Every year it's the same story, 25% increase in torque with 0% increase in watts. New bikes have 100% more power over a 5 year old bike with a 250 watt sticker on the side.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

EricTheDood said:


> Any argument can be made for anything.


No it can't.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> I do not understand your point about being a good argument for DIY ebikes being illegal, can you explain a bit more about your thinking?
> 
> I am not so sure that building a DIY eMTB for my own use makes me a manufacturer as defined in CA statute, but even if it did, I am exempt since I built mine 15 months before Jan 1 2017. This law and its labeling requirements do not apply to me since I am grandfathered in and I comply with the laws in effect in CA in Oct of 2015. I also comply with Class 1 or Class 2 depending on whether the throttle is operational, or so it seems.
> 
> If you have a less than legal ebike, register it as a moped by all means, alternatively, you could build a fully legal one instead and not register it. This is the route I took with my eMTBs as well as with my recumbent street bike which is a legal Class 3. (Lightning P-38 with a Magic Pie v5 @ 52v)


In California if an e-bike is not a Class 1-2-3 then it's not an "electric bicycle" but a motorized vehicle (probably a moped or ???)


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I do not understand your point about being a good argument for DIY ebikes being illegal, can you explain a bit more about your thinking?
> 
> I am not so sure that building a DIY eMTB for my own use makes me a manufacturer as defined in CA statute, but even if it did, I am exempt since I built mine 15 months before Jan 1 2017. This law and its labeling requirements do not apply to me since I am grandfathered in and I comply with the laws in effect in CA in Oct of 2015. I also comply with Class 1 or Class 2 depending on whether the throttle is operational, or so it seems.
> 
> If you have a less than legal ebike, register it as a moped by all means, alternatively, you could build a fully legal one instead and not register it. This is the route I took with my eMTBs as well as with my recumbent street bike which is a legal Class 3. (Lightning P-38 with a Magic Pie v5 @ 52v)


One of the problems that I see with DIY, is that the laws state the motor should be <750w, and the most common diy motors used on mtbs are over that, including the ones you're using.

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-mid-drive-kit/

https://lunacycle.com/golden-pie-v5-golden-motor-hub-kit/

If any place determines they're virulently anti ebike (I'm looking at you Marin), they could nail pretty much anyone on a kit bike. Besides the fact that it'll be the rare kit biker who stickers their bike, and the laws don't touch on kit bikes at all. Can an individual even legally do that? Sticker their own bike? Who the hell knows?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AFAICT, DIY is like the Wild West; I don't believe the OEM rules apply, and even if they did, there's no policing in the area where I reside (except for a couple of times that I encountered it, but they were where no e-bikes were allowed).


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

No, because it’s still over 250w. 
250 w and 20mph that’s class 1. 
I do t think any ebike with wheel mounted motor classified as a bicycle. 
There not pedal assist. 
I think as soon as an ebike can go without pedaling it’s over powered for a mtb trail system and doesn’t belong. 
250w pedal assist is so similar to the mechanized mtb it should have no difference in classification over a conventional mtb. 
Having spent fair amount of time building trails, maintaining trails in rock creek ohv trail system and enjoying them on three different levels, motorcycle, mtb, emtb class1,
Emtb class 2, class3. 
Class 3 is without question a motorcycle, if fighting for emtb being legal means these are allowed i vote to ban ebikes from anything but ohv trail systems. 
Class 2 I’m on the fence, they feel motorized to me as u can sit and go. 
Class 1, it’s nithing more then allowing a recreational mtb rider the thrill of climbing like a top level pro rider on a mtb and they mix well and trail damage is equal to standard mtb. 

I own two ebikes. 250w and a 350w. 
Both are pedal assist only. 
350w is pushing the limit hard in my eyes to be on a mtb trails and considered a mountain bike. 
Personally i won’t ride it on anything but ohv trails.
But my 250w 27.5+ Bike is very suitable for any trail and i think it shouldn’t be classified any different then conventional mountain bike


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

hub motors can be pedal assist only. I have one.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

TNTE3 said:


> No, because it's still over 250w.
> 250 w and 20mph that's class 1.


Not sure where you reside but in USA the trend is for Class 1 to have a 750 watt motor limit.

And the only difference with Class 3 is their top speed is 28 mph not 20; they're still pedelec of 750 watts.

IMHO the wattage limit should be a function of a riders body weight; maybe 3X lbs = watts?

Example a 100# kid gets a 300 watt limit; I'd get 615 watts!


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## TNTE3 (Nov 10, 2017)

Because a car or motorcycle capable of going 200mph is mixed with cars that all have ICE, paved roads and for the most part improved operating conditions and stiff fines if operated if operated wrecklesly. 
But thats compairingnapples to oranges. 
Here we want to mix human powered mechanized vehicles to motor assisted mechanized vehicles on trail system that was designed for human mechanized use. 
If your riding a ebike that will climb a hill 10x faster then a human powered mtb you just don’t belong on the mtb trail system. You belong with the ohv riders. 
I weigh 205lbs, my 250w class 1 has enough assistance that my climbing limitation is flipping over backwards because of incline on smooth trail. 
On a rough long climb i average 3 gears higher on my ebike then i do my mtb. 
As a person that has Really jumped into an ebike and love what it has done for my desire to ride here my take. 
If your ebike takes the average working person who hasn’t cycled there whole life and puts them on a level playing field to top athletes on a climb, then you belong on the mtb trails. 
If your ebike has over 350w your beyond super human strength and you belong on ohv trails. 
If I’m working my butt off to make a climb i don’t want to be roosted past by some fat lazy person and be sucking in there dust as I’m already maxed out in heart rate on the climb. 
If you want an ebike that has that kind of power you owe it to those who work hard to be on different trail system. 
I really believe that emtb and mtb can mix extremely well if the assist doesn’t go beyond super human strength. 
Example. Take average working man who has spent his life working for a living and give him a + size squisher with assist and put a top level mtb on a light weight hard tail and allow them both to climb at the same rate, you belong. 
Now if some lazy over weight shlub can jump on 500w+ ebike and blow past the best in the world on a climb your not assisted your a motorcycle get on ohv trails!
My back ground, motocross racer, mtb, emtb. I ride all three disciplines and on strava have many KOM, on DH sections of trails. So my riding skills are arguably better then average rider. When i ride my 350w 28mph ebike on legal mtb trails i have closure speeds to those on mtb that i feel is risky on two way trails. Why i say this. 
On a heater DH section I’m accustom to those climbing being at 3-6mph so my reaction time is adequate for my speed. Now you put a 500w+ ebike on climb and there going 11-17mph on climb, this means that there will be much greater closure speeds and more head on’s.
Biggest reason i say more head in’s is now there will be more uphill traffic because the climb is now easy for most, and those who worked there ass off on a mtb don’t get freedom to enjoy there turns they earned.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

TNTE3 said:


> No, because it's still over 250w.
> 250 w and 20mph that's class 1.
> I do t think any ebike with wheel mounted motor classified as a bicycle.
> There not pedal assist.
> ...


 I have no idea where you live, but in California, there is no mention of a 250w or 350w limit anywhere in the law. The three classes are defined by speed and throttle type. I know of no place in CA where Class 3 bikes are permitted on MUTs and I doubt that Class 2s are permitted either AFAIK.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

TNTE3 said:


> Because a car or motorcycle capable of going 200mph is mixed with cars that all have ICE, paved roads and for the most part improved operating conditions and stiff fines if operated if operated wrecklesly.
> But thats compairingnapples to oranges.
> Here we want to mix human powered mechanized vehicles to motor assisted mechanized vehicles on trail system that was designed for human mechanized use.
> If your riding a ebike that will climb a hill 10x faster then a human powered mtb you just don't belong on the mtb trail system. You belong with the ohv riders.
> ...


 I was wondering if this was going to lead to the You Are Not Worthy And I Am Entitled argument, but I did not expect the "fat lazy person" and "lazy overweight shlub" comments, most folks who feel like you don't go there, since it make them look sorta arrogant. Did you get passed by an ebike and have your fee fees hurt recently.....?


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