# How do they get 900 lumens out of 12W Triple LED ?~?



## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

HID Technologies has a new LED bike light which looks promising.

The Lumen8R LED makes these claims:

CNC machined 6000 series aluminium housing
12W Triple LED configuration (Future Upgradeable)
Lamp Colour: 5000K

Integrated switch
Mount Style: Helmet or Stem
Weight: approx.110grams including mount

Water resistant.
Theoretical 900+ lumens
Available in Matt Black only.

Chemistry: Li-Po
Capacity: 4000mA
Burn Time: approx. 5hrs
Charge Time: approx. 2-3hrs
Weight: very close to 370gms
Splash Resistant

Low (Programmable, remembers last setting) 5hrs - 400hrs
High (5hrs)

Photo:










I'm not very cluey with electronics... but I have read here that 240 lumens is all you can currently get out of a 3w LED at 1000ma.

It all looks good, but I just wanted to know how do they get 900 lumens with 3 led's at 12w ?~?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> It all looks good, but I just wanted to know how do they get 900 lumens with 3 led's at 12w ?~?


Short answer is - you don't. Exaggeration seems to be very common in the flashlight world... seems the bike light manufactures are playing the same games. You're right, 240 lumens per LED is about the most available currently... and that's still theoretical and not real world out the front of the light lumens since you have to take into account a certain percentage of loss due to reflectors/optics.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

By overdriving them a little bit???
Wonder how hot the LEDs are when the casing is 100...

"Warning
The Light Head gets very hot (90-100oC) when used on full power without adequate airflow such as riding. (Riding temp typically 20-35oC)
There is a possibility of being burnt."


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

znomit said:


> By overdriving them a little bit???
> Wonder how hot the LEDs are when the casing is 100...
> 
> "Warning
> ...


You mean they are driving them over 1 Amp ?~?

Would that reduce the LED lifespan much ?~?


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> You mean they are driving them over 1 Amp ?~?
> 
> Would that reduce the LED lifespan much ?~?


Yeap. CREE's are not certified for usage past 1A. 4 CREE's would have been a smarter solution but the optics and extra emitter wouldn't fit.


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## WeLight (Aug 12, 2007)

no sure where you info is coming from but Cree XR-E Q5 at 1A is 256 lumens, R2 is 275 Lumens at 1A


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

WeLight said:


> no sure where you info is coming from but Cree XR-E Q5 at 1A is 256 lumens, R2 is 275 Lumens at 1A


:eekster:

275 * 3 = 825

Hmm... maybe lose 10%ish from optics... still easily over 700 lumens! My light in progress keeps sounding better! 

I still don't buy 900+ lumens from 3 LEDs which can be run for 5 hours with a 4000ma battery... what kind of voltage would that battery have to be at??


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

It would have to be 4 x 3W (12W) so that's 225L each for 900L total. It's probably using the new Cutter 4 Cree MR11 kit. They are in Australia so that would make sense.


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

Homebrew said:


> It would have to be 4 x 3W (12W) so that's 225L each for 900L total. It's probably using the new Cutter 4 Cree MR11 kit. They are in Australia so that would make sense.


Fair enough, but they do call it a Triple LED light...


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> It would have to be 4 x 3W (12W) so that's 225L each for 900L total. It's probably using the new Cutter 4 Cree MR11 kit. They are in Australia so that would make sense.


Not really fair enough, because at 1A the forward voltage is more like 3.5-3.7V, and don't discount the extra watts consumed by the electronics (probably about another 2W). That puts you right in the 12W ballpark.

Manufacturers really need to specify the conditions in which they get these claimed numbers.

I also don't really inderstand why they went with a Li-PO pack. The energy density isn't comparable to Li-ION, and the technology simply costs more.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Welcome to the world of specmanship. 

In a perfect world you get:

- 900 + lumens out of the diode. 
- 20 hour run time off a single battery.
- Total systems is under 1 oz total weight.

What they fail to mention that the product is not capable of all three at the same time. Follow the laws of physics and ask your self if it is too good to be true then guess what.


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## dirkfh (Jan 20, 2004)

*Over driving, output and life*

If you were to over drive them @ 1.2A what would the lumen output be (R2)?

What would the life be?

Thanks

DFH


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## Lumbee1 (Dec 16, 2004)

WeLight said:


> no sure where you info is coming from but Cree XR-E Q5 at 1A is 256 lumens, R2 is 275 Lumens at 1A


Where are you getting your numbers from? A maximum of 228 lumens out of a Q5 has been well documented. Even if we use CREE's flawed 1A certification (220% at 1A) that still only put the Q5 at 242 lumens.


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

Thanks for the replies.

Good information.

Even if they use the 275 lumen (and in fact it is what is says it is)... 900 lumen sounds like it is unachievable without going past LED certification, which I assume would reduce reliability (it will be my only light).

Cheers


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## mofoki (Feb 1, 2005)

I could tell that company was full of s#*^#T when they said a 10w HID is equal to 30-40w halogen. I didn't read any farther.


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## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> Even if they use the 275 lumen (and in fact it is what is says it is)... 900 lumen sounds like it is unachievable without going past LED certification, which I assume would reduce reliability (it will be my only light).


Actually, LED manufacturers are more concerned about heat - at least the ones that i've spoken too. If the LED is kept cool enough, you can run it at higher currents. The problem is diminishing returns (you can use a lot more power for a negligable increase in brightness), and simply keeping the LED cool as it produces that much more heat.

Also, as far as LEDs go, bike lighting is so far within their reliability window, it should not really be a concern. LEDs last for about 6 years of continuous use - they can easily handle a few hours a night a few nights a week.

But point being, their claim is not founded.


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## rockymtnway (Nov 14, 2004)

Hypothetically only, they could use three triple rebels, with each putting out 300 lumens at 350ma. That would be 900 lumens for 11.34w if each triple rebel was drawing [email protected] 350ma. Of course you'd need a 32+ volt battery to run them in series or a boost puck of some sort.

Not that I'm saying that's what these guys are doing, but in theory, you could get 900 lumens for under 12w from three stars. Drive them at 700ma and you'd get 1620 lumens... and one 'ell of a thermal management problem.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

... Looks like they are using R2s ...


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

where in the datasheet does it say 256 lumens?



WeLight said:


> no sure where you info is coming from but Cree XR-E Q5 at 1A is 256 lumens, R2 is 275 Lumens at 1A


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

Hack On Wheels said:


> Fair enough, but they do call it a Triple LED light...


I think we all agreed one of their numbers weren't going to work.  After seeing further pictures, it would be their lumen output that's suspect. But that's really no different than anyone else's marketing BS lumen ratings.


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## rockymtnway (Nov 14, 2004)

It's all so silly to lie about, too. The fact is that now any three Seoul or three Cree set up running at 700ma is completely adequate to race with. Then again, if I was charging $500 for a headlamp, I'd want it to sound like it's lighter than air, brighter than the sun, and could polish your frame after every ride, too.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

*900 lumen is possible quite easily.*

Hi All,
I am the developer of the Lumen8r-LED.
To say you can not reach 900 used to be true.
Let me explain how I came to the figures.
The cree xr-e Q5 generates 107 lumens at 350ma
I drive them at 1A therefore I drive them at 2.85 times their rated.
Thus 2.85 x 107 = 305
There are 3 LEDS so 305 x 3 = 915.
It all depends upon how you drive them too. If you drive them with a constant current source them they are more efficient.
I have compared the units to my 10W HID and my 21W hid and the 21W is only marginally brighter.
Every one that has tried them agrees it is certainly brighter than the 550 lumens from the 10W HID.
Now you are correct in saying tere are losses, but they are negligible.
The battery is a 14.8V 4000ma li-po.
Burn figures are true. 5 hours at 100%, 18hrs at the next level and 120hrs at minimum.

"I could tell that company was full of s#*^#T when they said a 10w HID is equal to 30-40w halogen. I didn't read any farther." Then you do not know your lighting.
A HID is 300% more efficient.

"I also don't really inderstand why they went with a Li-PO pack. The energy density isn't comparable to Li-ION, and the technology simply costs more."
Four reasons. Lighter, Cheaper, better burn times. SAFER.

Daniel
HIDTechnologies.com.au



kwarwick said:


> Short answer is - you don't. Exaggeration seems to be very common in
> the flashlight world... seems the bike light manufactures are playing the same games. You're right, 240 lumens per LED is about the most available currently... and that's still theoretical and not real world out the front of the light lumens since you have to take into account a certain percentage of loss due to reflectors/optics.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Daniel

Welcome to the forums! 

We love our lumens and are quite protective of them.

Unfortunately the cree output does not increase linearly with current. We wish it did.
In general the output at 1A is only 2.2 that at 350mA, not 2.85(1/0.350) :madman:

You are 194 lumens short. But your light is still bloody bright. :thumbsup:

See cree datasheet.


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## super-fast (Sep 28, 2006)

Better runtimes with LiPo, forget it. 18650 Li-ion cells with 2600 mAh (you forgot the 'h' from hour on your website) capacity rating for a good manufacturer is the you can buy. But you are clearly not an electrical engineer, otherwise you wouldn't have made the mistake with the lumen output. 
You are using plastic lenses, so there goes 10% of your light output. The driver isn't 100% efficient but something like 90%, in a best case scenario you could do the calculations with 93%. 

So your website should say theoretically 640+ Lm. And yep you are right, that is brighter then the 10 Watt HIDs. But your not the only company that doesn't want to understand these simple datasheet, even Lupine is wrong with some of there ratings.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

Points taken and website has been adjusted.
No I am not an engineer.
I really should get them lumen tested but to lumen test LED's is complicated and expensive.
From experience, Li-po is better, lighter and safer.
It's not doesn't want to understand, but didn't understand and I am always happy to accept constructive criticism and advice.
Daniel
HIDTechnologies



super-fast said:


> Better runtimes with LiPo, forget it. 18650 Li-ion cells with 2600 mAh (you forgot the 'h' from hour on your website) capacity rating for a good manufacturer is the you can buy. But you are clearly not an electrical engineer, otherwise you wouldn't have made the mistake with the lumen output.
> You are using plastic lenses, so there goes 10% of your light output. The driver isn't 100% efficient but something like 90%, in a best case scenario you could do the calculations with 93%.
> 
> So your website should say theoretically 640+ Lm. And yep you are right, that is brighter then the 10 Watt HIDs. But your not the only company that doesn't want to understand these simple datasheet, even Lupine is wrong with some of there ratings.


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## rockymtnway (Nov 14, 2004)

Respect due for listening to the critics in the forum and changing your site from it. I think the best marketing you can do is a well designed light test against known lights on your website (comparing it to a Niterider 20w halogen & HID would be a good start). If your lights are that good, they'll outshine the competition without a word spoken about lumens. 

While the marketing has shifted toward bragging about lumens from most companies, there are a lot of other important variables that get lost in lumen-only comparisons, like flood, spot, and spill light. A good field test with markers every 5-10 meters, a common aiming point, a camera on a tripod aimed at the same point, and objects visible to the sides to demonstrate flood and spill could really highlight your product and quiet the critics.


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## Trouble Maker (Mar 19, 2007)

^^ If he's that confident in his product, he could send one into whomever is doing the light test for MTBR.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

A magazine already has one and is testing now. You should see it in a magazine soon.

If the tester wants to contact me then he/she is welcome and I am more than happy for them to test.



Trouble Maker said:


> ^^ If he's that confident in his product, he could send one into whomever is doing the light test for MTBR.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

*test*



hidtechnologies said:


> A magazine already has one and is testing now. You should see it in a magazine soon.
> 
> If the tester wants to contact me then he/she is welcome and I am more than happy for them to test.


See website for photos and comparisons. Francois at MTBR has had a triple since March and I still haven't seen the review.
https://www.hidtechnologies.com.au/Comparison.htm
Mag reviews are here https://www.hidtechnologies.com.au/images/AMBReview2008.JPG
and here https://www.hidtechnologies.com.au/Files/MBA AugSeptOct 08 pg50.pdf


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

*Looks Good*

Thanks for the update, looks good, nice and small, light and bright.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

yetibetty said:


> Thanks for the update, looks good, nice and small, light and bright.


I like it too...a well thought out product. I like the quad setup, not that there's anything wrong with the tri. It does look to have some throw. Just what I would be looking for in a helmet mount setup ( If I had some $$$ ). I wonder if the high level setting is programmable (?)


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

...another quick thought...I just noticed that the 4000mah Li-Po battery that comes with this light weighs 430gms...:eekster: ...Man!..that things a brick ( 1lb.). Compared to the Dinotte 4-cell which is < half that..( 220gms ) okay, so they ( HID Technologies ) also sell a 2200mah battery as an option.. ( 3.5hr on high ) That would be the way to go. No weight listed for the 2200mah battery but probably half the 4000mah. I still can't figure out why that 4000mah is so heavy...Comparing it to some of the stuff BatterySpace sells, both standard Li-ion and Polymer Li-ion weight much less on the BSpace site. I wonder what voltage battery they use(?) ... ....boy, I bet the guy selling these never thought that a bunch of forum mongers would be so through in picking up little details...:ihih: *edit: just now noticed that the weight listed for the battery at the start of the thread is different than what is listed on the website. If the website listing is wrong, they might want to correct that real fast.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

For one thing the Dinotte (3.5hrs) does not have a burn time of 5hrs on full beam.
The weight of approx 410 -430gr is correct for the 4000ma 18.5V li-po battery. 2200ma li-ion batts have not arrived yet still in transit but will be around the 235gr mark.
The Dinotte is only 600 lumens not ~1000lumens.
Daniel
HIDTechnologies



Cat-man-do said:


> ...another quick thought...I just noticed that the 4000mah Li-Po battery that comes with this light weighs 430gms...:eekster: ...Man!..that things a brick ( 1lb.). Compared to the Dinotte 4-cell which is < half that..( 220gms ) okay, so they ( HID Technologies ) also sell a 2200mah battery as an option.. ( 3.5hr on high ) That would be the way to go. No weight listed for the 2200mah battery but probably half the 4000mah. I still can't figure out why that 4000mah is so heavy...Comparing it to some of the stuff BatterySpace sells, both standard Li-ion and Polymer Li-ion weight much less on the BSpace site. I wonder what voltage battery they use(?) ... ....boy, I bet the guy selling these never thought that a bunch of forum mongers would be so through in picking up little details...:ihih: *edit: just now noticed that the weight listed for the battery at the start of the thread is different than what is listed on the website. If the website listing is wrong, they might want to correct that real fast.


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## super-fast (Sep 28, 2006)

Edit: Read the website a bit too fast. But still Dinotte is advertising with real world Lumens and not some theoretic numbers where losses aren't included.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

The difference between 600lumens real world versus 1000lumens real world is huge.
The calculations for the lumens are on the website as well as all the specs. These calcs were supplied to me by a Cree supplier.

Quad Cree XRE R2 at 1000ma
Min 114 x 2.25 x 4 x 0.92 = 943.92
Max 121 x 2.25 x 4 x 0.92 = 1001.88

Explanation.

Cree XRE R2 LED generates 114-121 Lumens.
The LED lumen output is not linear and slightly decreases as the current increases thus [email protected] not 2.86 as I previously thought.
Multiply by the number of LEDs
0.92 is the efficiency of the optic. (92% transmission)



super-fast said:


> But what's the difference between 600 real world lumens and 1000 lumens in a light without losses? Everyone loses at least 8% of the light in the optics, the only way to improve it is to use aluminium reflectors. I wonder which LEDS you use to get 1000 real lumens and the driving currents...


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

Put any triple Cree XRE R2 at ~700 and a quad at ~1000 next to a Dinotte or a 10-13W HID and they leave them for dead.



hidtechnologies said:


> The difference between 600lumens real world versus 1000lumens real world is huge.
> The calculations for the lumens are on the website as well as all the specs. These calcs were supplied to me by a Cree supplier.
> 
> Quad Cree XRE R2 at 1000ma
> ...


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## super-fast (Sep 28, 2006)

The numbers above are quite positive but they could be right. Except for the fact that the leds will heat up, when the leds get hotter then 20 degrees Celcius the output is going down quite fast.

I thought Dinotte uses Seoul P4 U-bin leds, Cree R2's aren't that much better. I doubt or you will see the difference in a 'blind' test.


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

Respect for knowing your stuff.
You may be correct with a triple and the difference may not be noticeable but the quad is obvious.



super-fast said:


> The numbers above are quite positive but they could be right. Except for the fact that the leds will heat up, when the leds get hotter then 20 degrees Celcius the output is going down quite fast.
> 
> I thought Dinotte uses Seoul P4 U-bin leds, Cree R2's aren't that much better. I doubt or you will see the difference in a 'blind' test.


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## smudgemtbuk (Jul 13, 2008)

The ones I build approx weigh the following
Li-Ion 
4S2P 15V 4.8Ah 400g
4S1P 15V 2.4Ah 200g


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## hidtechnologies (Feb 19, 2008)

Note the voltage is 14.8V not 18.5V thus the slightly extra weight but longer burn times.
The old battery used to weigh around 380gr (triple burn time 5-5.5hrs). The new battery is around 410 (just weighed on digital scales) with a burn time of 6.5-7hrs.
The 18.5V 2200ma li-ion is around the 235gr mark and will provide 2.5hrs+ (Quad) and 3.5hrs (triple).
Charge time around 1-2hrs 2200ma 2-3hrs 4000ma.



smudgemtbuk said:


> The ones I build approx weigh the following
> Li-Ion
> 4S2P 15V 4.8Ah 400g
> 4S1P 15V 2.4Ah 200g


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

super-fast said:


> I thought Dinotte uses Seoul P4 U-bin leds, Cree R2's aren't that much better. I doubt or you will see the difference in a 'blind' test.


Crees are much more consistent. R2 are 114 to 122 lm at 350m, SSC Ubin are 91 to 118. Everyone quotes the 118 of course. The worst R2 almost the same as the best SSC. The worst SSC is only giving 75% of the best R2(that is significant).

SSC now split the U bin into U1 and U2 at 100lm. If you have an old light you are probably only U1. The next bin is V which is 118 to 154. When this get released the triple SSC lights will be 154*2.25*3 so over 1000lm _on paper_.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

V Bin, is a big step up.

If they reckon 2/3rd of current LED's power is wasted on heat then we have a long way to potentially go efficency wise 

Hopefully get to 1/3rd lost, so twice the power for the same draw as current.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

....Damn...somewhere along the line I must of drank too much kool-aid. I just ordered one of their quads. Might be a while before I get it...the small batteries are on back order. Beam shots will be forth coming when P.O. brings the goods. ( 10-20 days air mail from the land down under )


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