# Bike advice needed to build an absolute killer bike



## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Hi guys,

I hope I can ask you for some advice First a short introduction to the Bikepacking section. I'm a Dutch, 22 year old student living in the Netherlands. November 23, 2013 I started my first bike trip to raise money for an association close to my heart. I started in Bariloche and decided to finish in Ushuaia (both places in Argentina), a common place to finish/start a bike trip. For a big part I travelled over the Carretera Austral in Chile and did the though border crossing from Villa O'Higgins to El Chaltén. I arrived in Ushuaia December 26.

It was a hell of a trip and looking back on it it was the best thing I have ever done in my entire life. The Soul performed amazingly, it handled everything extremely well although it wasn't really built for travelling.








[SUB][SUB]Picture taken on the border crossing from Argentina to Chile[/SUB][/SUB]

Some gear specs:
*Bike*: Cotic Soul, size M, with full SRAM X0, Rockshox SID XX 120mm, Hope brakes, ZTR Arch wheels with Hope hubs and as a lifesaver a Brooks B17 saddle;
*Panniers*: Thule Pack 'n Pedal Tour;
*Bags*: Ortlieb Roller City;
*Other stuff*: Nordisk tent, MSR stove, Sea to Summit sleeping bag, Therm-a-Rest sleeping mat.

The emotional value makes me never ever sell this bike. Just looking at it brings back so many memories, it really was a life-changing experience. I've got this picture printed out and hanging on the wall. I took it somewhere near Futaleufu:









*Main question*
But.... I now have some new ideas for long trips. When I finish my studies in a couple of years I would really like to travel around by bike. I really want to do the Tour Divide route and then possibly go down further and do some other parts of South America I missed last time. This summer I might just do a tour around Europe. I already did a tour in France on the Cotic, but I've got some friends in Spain that I might visit and I've got the Trans Continental Race also on my bucket list.

So I am looking for the ideal bike for all this and hope you guys can give me some advice The Soul was great for my first trip, but I am now looking for a bike a bit more dedicated to travelling and multiple day races (see below). I think I need a stiffer frame as well, cause the Soul flexed too much with all the luggage (complete bike weight around 35-40kg including food/drinks etc.). I don't think there is a real need for suspension, less maintenance too. A summary of what I am looking for would be:

- Bike for bikepacking;
- Both long multiple month rides (road + gravel) with panniers as well as transcontinental races (road) or races like the tour divide (gravel) with only frame/handlebar bag/seatpost pannier;
- Strong and reliable;
- Steel;
- No need for front suspension (a frame that can have front suspension is allowed, but I don't really need it);
- 2.0 tires must fit;
- Due to a not so extreme budget it will be build up with just 'normal' 10 speed (2x or 3x) drivetrain, but I don't rule out a Rohloff in the future;
- Front hub will probably be a dynamo hub (if that matters for the frame).

Of course I've done some research and think the Reeb Sam's Pants is an absolute killer bike, but it's too expensive and maybe a bit too racy(?). Import duties on products from the US are also just too high. What alternatives are there? Salsa Fargo maybe? I read that it is not stiff enough.. Let's put the budget $1000,-/€800,-.

Any advice?


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Two words, Surly.


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## Harryonaspot (Oct 5, 2004)

Salsa Fargo. Don't know anything about it not being "stiff enough". Unles you are huge. I had over 7500 mostly dirt miles on my version 1 before I sold it. And then only to buy a Ti Fargo. Extremely versatile, and can be had fairly cheap, at least in this country. Look at ebay.


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## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

Other than a bit of flex, which is very common with 60 to 70lb racks on all but full on touring tanks, is there anything in particular that you don't like about your current frame? it looks to me that it already ticks most of your boxes. 

You are not going to get anything hand made within your budget and while I like Surly and Salsa frames (Karate monkey here) I can't see them being inherently better than what you already have unless you want to change wheel size. Maybe an Ogre or a Troll will flex a little less, another option is surly LHT at $500 or a Thorn Nomad Frame more mtb than conventional tourer at about GBP700 I think, they have longer chain stays and additional butting to prevent flex this geometry makes it very stable with loads, but they handle like a tanks as an MTB very sluggish cornering. A good touring frame for 60 or 70lbs racks and panniers is not necessarily going to be the best option for very lightweight MTB bikepacking.

Maybe consider selling your SID XX and X0 (if still in reasonable nick) and buy a rohloff, SP dyno hub and suspension corrected steel fork (something like a Surly Troll fork). You should be able to get close to the Euro 1K mark all in if you can get Euro 250+ for the fork and drivetrain.


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## SurlyNate (Mar 16, 2006)

I've got a Ti Fargo, and have never thought it's not stiff enough. And I'm generally in the 210-220lb range with 15-20lbs of gear on it. I'd imagine the steel one would not be any flexier. 

But yeah, not sure a Fargo will be dramatically different than what you already have. Probably better - but not a night and day difference.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks for your replies people! I typed a reply earlier today, but it I guess something went wrong with posting cause I don't see it here.. So here I go again

I'm not huge luckily I weigh 73kg and I'm 1,83m tall (bit over 6') so I don't think that was the problem. I'm guessing the Soul just wasn't made to handle the weight, something I am looking for in a new bike.

It is not that I wasn't happy with the Soul during the trip. The contrary is true, I was extremely happy with it. However, I now want a bike that's a bit more dedicated to bikepacking. I also just want a build up a new bike.. I see that as an important part of the hobby. The Cotic will be more a display piece than a bike that I will use a lot. 

There are some particular things I didn't like of the Cotic that I would like to see on the new bike like more bottle cage mounts (tape works, but isn't ideal) and it has to be more stable with weight, the Cotic got quite unstable on descents with made going downhill not that much fun. You just felt the back part of the bike going left and right. I was also afraid the frame was going to break under the weight since it was not designed to handle it that way. The new bike also has to be compatible with disc brakes btw.

Also, the Soul was a size M frame. On the small size for me, but I like smaller frames for mountain biking cause I found them better handling. I now have a 2Souls Quarterhose (steel 29er LTHT) and that's a size L. For bikepacking I think an L sized frame would suit me better.

The more I look and read about bikes the more I start thinking the Salsa Fargo ticks most of my boxes. I want to make clear that this new bike doesn't have to be extremely different from the Cotic, it just has to be more geared towards bikepacking


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

SurlyNate said:


> I've got a Ti Fargo, and have never thought it's not stiff enough. And I'm generally in the 210-220lb range with 15-20lbs of gear on it. I'd imagine the steel one would not be any flexier.
> 
> But yeah, not sure a Fargo will be dramatically different than what you already have. Probably better - but not a night and day difference.


There is no need whatsoever for a day and night difference between the bikes. I've got a Cotic Soul and a 2Souls Quarterhorse, both fun bikes, both mountainbikes, and no extreme differences other than wheel size, but I wouldn't want to miss either of the two.

Yeah, the more I read and watch the Fargo, the more anxious I am to build one


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## SurlyNate (Mar 16, 2006)

I'd recommend standing over one if possible before buying. The tall headtube can be disconcerting at first.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Why would the tall headtube be 'disconcerting' (had to check google translate for that word lol)? I won't make the decision right away of course. I will read some more and I'm still open to suggestions. Will be difficult to though to see the Fargo in real life. It's not a bike you see here much.


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## eredinger (Apr 16, 2009)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Two words, Surly.


Agree! If you can't find what your looking for with Surly it may not be available.


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## geekonabike (Jun 1, 2010)

Seems like lighting the load down to what will fit in a frame pack and under the saddle would work with the Soul as is.


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## djrez4 (Apr 6, 2012)

You guys are all ignoring the fact that OP _wants_ to build a new bike!

Maybe a Singular Gryphon fits the bill?


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## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

My buddy has a fargo and it is a great bike with lighter loads. He uses his Long Haul Trucker if he is carting the weights you mentioned, he says the fargo suffers from the front wheel shimmy and frame flex. My Soma double cross is exactly the same, up to about 10kg rear and 5kg front it is fine, above that it gets alarming, it's fine for hotel road touring. This is not a flaw I am pretty sure that Salsa design the Fargo to take up to 15kg on the rear (what their racks are rated to). That seems to be about the limit for bikes designed to be ridden loaded or unloaded, above that they have more steel and a longer wheel base. 
If you are looking for a bikepacking setup with modest loads then a Fargo or El Mariachi or Ogre / Troll is a great choice if you want something to cart 35 to 40kg about on extended tours get something specifically designed to do just that


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

I prefer strapped on packs rather than bolted on racks. The bolt on are heavier and might rattle loose. Strap on packs munge up the paint though. For this reason a went with titanium --no paint to worry about. In my mind --maybe just literally --ti also smooths out the rough just a bit. Because I wanted a softtail, I needed to go with a non-tourin model. No regrets but I don't carry much. Maybe 13 lbs of gear. 

So get a ti 29er and travel light?


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks Djrez4 for making clear that I also just want to build up a bike again  Building up a bike is part of the fun just like riding them. I'm having troubles with a knee injury now so I would like to have a new bike on which I can just have a relaxed bit of fun. Also building up the bike keeps me busy in these times of 'need' 

Some interesting things have come up. I've never ridden with bolt on bags so don't know how that'd be, but I can imagine it to be very nice and would definitely consider it. I just want to make sure the bike can handle a trip where I bring a tent, cooking stuff etc. I read very mixed things about the Fargo's stiffness. Some people have no troubles with a lot of luggage, others talk about flex and wheel shimmy..

I feel the LHT is a bit too much of a racing bike [SUB][SUB][SUB](and I don't like the look of Surly frames sorry...)[/SUB][/SUB][/SUB]. I'm a mountainbiker and that's one of the reasons I looked at the Fargo. It just looks so damn comfortable with those dropper bars. That Singular Gryphon also looks pretty impressive. Will read some more about that bike!

I don't want to go for titanium. Too expensive and too difficult to weld if you are stranded somewhere in a small little town in the middle of nowhere.


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## leeazjr (Feb 7, 2014)

The salsa el mariachi is also a very capable bikepacking rig. I built one up for myself and have found it really feels in its element when loaded down. There are a lot of nice features with that make it a very versatile bike. 44mm head tube for different size steer tubes. Adjustable rear drop outs that can handle any rear Hun configuration, single speed or geared, lots of bottle cage mounts, then pair it with s fargo rigid fork you could use the anything cages up front which are very nice. I have ridden mine all over Arizona, which has some very rugged trails and have never been disappointed by the bike. Plus the relevate designs frame bag made for the el mariachi is amazing! Lots of storage space in there!
Good luck with the build!


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Good to hear you like it! I can imagine the Mariachi to be a capable bike, but I think the salsa dropbars would be great and since the Fargo is designed with those bars in mind... I would be curious to know whether there is a difference in stiffness between the Fargo and the Mariachi. Any idea? I won't build the bike as a single speed. Only a Rohloff would be a possibility (not in the near future), but the Fargo can handle that too 

I think the difference between the El Mariachi and the Soul is less than the difference between the Mariachi and the Fargo. The Fargo still runs no. 1 in my head


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't think the El Mar has a rack mounts either. Actually, I think the new Fargo can only use the Salsa rear rack.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Good point indeed!


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## leeazjr (Feb 7, 2014)

There's also a guy in the UK that is making a nice looking bike called stooge cycles, at first he was just building a regular trail bike, but I read he was going to start building a touring frame also. It would be worth looking into. 
Yeah I forgot about the rear rack, that won't work with the el mariachi. I'm sure you won't have trouble finding the right frame, or at least have fun trying!


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

My std reply - Jones steel. Std unicrown fork. Comes in on budget. It won't fit or do anything spec-wise that other bikes won't do but ime it handles incredibly well when loaded up - it remains fun when some may just 'cope'. Plenty stiff enough. Comfortable enough to consider anything on, the bars are brilliant. I have a steel one that's done many long rides and tours and it's sitting there now, tempting me into having the b---s to pack my job in and ride rtw : )









^ SS touring though.. for more of a man than me.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

You may be able to mount adult racks to a Fargo/El Mariachi by using QR mounting hardware like the sort Tubus offers for its non-Evo racks. This does limit their capacity to whatever the hardware is rated to handle, however, and that's going to be a lot less.

Probably still a better option than a Salsa Alternator rack though, hah. **** you, Salsa.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

That Jones looks amazing, but out of budget (€1000 frame only here in NL)..

I've contacted Salsa to ask about the frame stiffness and they said it should be fine, also fully packed. Yes, I am aware that their answer isn't really that objective, but at least I would have their assurance... (for what it's worth)


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Here are my thoughts: Most of the frames mentioned (Fargo, Gryphon, El Mariachi, etc.) would work fine for the OP when he is doing shorter bikepacking trips. I think the problem is when he loads it up to travel for a couple of months through South America or something, that is where those frames will not be ideal. With that much load, they will flex, maybe not as much as your Soul, but I think more than you want. For that kind of touring, I think Surly is the best choice. Probably the Ogre, or if 29+ interests you, the ECR. It's got all the mounts you could want, it's compatible with pretty much any brakes and drivetrain, and has a proven track record. Is it light? No, but that's not the point, is it!

I know you said you don't like Surly, but I don't think there is anything else out there that will perform like you want at the price you want.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I got to thinking yesterday on the way home from the grocery store with a full load about how much of a role a rack can play in for stiff or solid a bike feels. I built a new commuter a few years back because the bike I had felt like it was gonna bend in half ever time I loaded it up only to have much the same feeling on the new bike because I was using the same rack (and wheels). I have since replaced the rack (twice) and am much happier. What ever you get, just make sure it can take a nice rack (like a Tubus).

Also, I agree with bikeny and think the Troll would be an ideal loaded RTW type bike.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

I truly think the Troll is one of the best bikes ever made. I've never seen a more versatile bike in my life. I've tried to put together other builds based on the same check list of wants and needs and I've always ended up coming back to it.

The only bike that, for me, offers things that can really top it in meaningful ways is a titanium Jones diamond frame with truss fork, but that's obviously more of a luxury item and doesn't actually so the same thing a Troll does. It's a very unique and wholly unnecessary bike for the people that dig that sort of thing.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Oké guys, this might surprise you, but holy moly that Ogre and Troll look sweet! When saying I didn't like the look of surly frames, I had the LHT in my head and cross-check type bikes in my mind... I would definitely take the Ogre into consideration. The weight isn't that shocking to me, my Quarterhorse frame weighs more 

The Ogre really looks interesting and it's good to hear there won't be any problems when fully loaded up. I see some Ogre's with Woodchipper bars too. The questions I now have is how does it handle for road riding and do the woodchipper bars add anything to feel like you can go faster (like on a road bike). I'm a young rider and I like to go fast. Slow touring isn't for me and don't mind doing 10hrs a day in the saddle. I'm not a weightweenie either and I want a mountainbike geometry, so that's why I'm looking at bikes like the Fargo and now the Ogre.

This looks absolutely stunning and would do the trick:









I will be reading again. Thanks for all the input guys!


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I have a KM, that has the same geo as the Ogre, I use for committing and "road" touring. I think it's handles brilliantly loaded and not. I will admit it takes a bit of effort to get it going but in my case I think that has to do with the wheels and tires I use.

If your considering putting drops on pay attention to effective top tube measurements. You may want to go down a size to get the fit right.

The Ogre and troll also have the ability to take rear racks on the front, making it easier to carry BIG loads.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Good to hear you like your Surly! I thought about the longer toptube together with the woodchipper bars, but if I pick a smaller frame size (size M) I will get in trouble with the seattube length. I don't want the seatpost to stick out as much as on my Soul (see page 1) and I thought I could solve the problem by getting a smaller stemThe toptube of the Ogre is 'only' about 2,5cm longer than the Fargo, so a smaller stem could do the trick, right? Or am I missing something here?


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

Longitude | Genesis Bikes £999 UK RRP, complete. I reckon it would roll pretty nicely on some 2" slicks.

A friend of mine spent 7 months riding from Thailand to Beijing on an Ogre with BP gear, he rates it highly.


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## ChristianCoté (Jul 13, 2014)

james-o said:


> Longitude | Genesis Bikes £999 UK RRP, complete. I reckon it would roll pretty nicely on some 2" slicks.
> 
> A friend of mine spent 7 months riding from Thailand to Beijing on an Ogre with BP gear, he rates it highly.


Oh man, that's a nice looking bike. I love that they went with Supra 35 rims, those are a personal favourite, and the clearance is very good on it. It's got some weird fitting though. Some elements of the geometry remind me of the Fargo, others various Surly bikes (dat effective top tube).

Neat...


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

looks interesting



james-o said:


> Longitude | Genesis Bikes £999 UK RRP, complete..


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## bb1mina (Feb 10, 2008)

I've used the Surly Karate Monkey, Ogre with racks, Krampus and now the ECR. If you like the Ogre, then I suggest you also consider the Surly ECR. All the capabilities of the Ogre, with 3.0 tires that can serve as "suspension." And, instead of drop bars, also consider the Jones Loop bars, which offers multiple hand positions while giving you a more upright position perfect for touring. I also like to use Surly front and rear racks as well, with pannier bags that seem to carry heavier loads than bikepacks. But, all these, if and only if weight is not much of a concern.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

Wagonwheeled bicycle showdown - Surly Krampus vs. ECR | Off Route

Ya'll have probably seen this already, as a bunch of the more prolific bloggers have chimed in in the comments...


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

JBHD said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I hope I can ask you for some advice First a short introduction to the Bikepacking section. I'm a Dutch, 22 year old student living in the Netherlands. November 23, 2013 I started my first bike trip to raise money for an association close to my heart. I started in Bariloche and decided to finish in Ushuaia (both places in Argentina), a common place to finish/start a bike trip. For a big part I travelled over the Carretera Austral in Chile and did the though border crossing from Villa O'Higgins to El Chaltén. I arrived in Ushuaia December 26.
> 
> ...


Hola JBHD,

Greetings from Buenos Aires! Let me know if you ever return down here 

MUY feliz 2015!!!

Saludos,
Federico


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## TheirOnlyPortrait (Dec 30, 2014)

JBHD said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I hope I can ask you for some advice First a short introduction to the Bikepacking section. I'm a Dutch, 22 year old student living in the Netherlands. November 23, 2013 I started my first bike trip to raise money for an association close to my heart. I started in Bariloche and decided to finish in Ushuaia (both places in Argentina), a common place to finish/start a bike trip. For a big part I travelled over the Carretera Austral in Chile and did the though border crossing from Villa O'Higgins to El Chaltén. I arrived in Ushuaia December 26.
> 
> ...


Hola JBHD,

Greetings from Buenos Aires! Let me know if you ever return down here 

MUY feliz 2015!!!

Saludos,
Federico


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

JBHD said:


> I want to make clear that this new bike doesn't have to be extremely different from the Cotic, it just has to be more geared towards bikepacking


Bikepacking is touring on a mountain bike.

Other than avoiding the a long travel DH/AM bike and maybe the most fragile XC race machine there is nothing special required of the bike.

Pick something that fits and is appropriate for the technical challenges of the trails you hope to traverse. If the TD is the sort of thing you want to ride it's just a bunch of dirt roads so any rigid mountain bike you like and that fits you will work.

You are going to wear out the parts so just score something reasonable and have a human check the spoke tension on the wheels. As you wear out parts put the stuff you want on the bike.

If you have serious aspirations for a Rohloff down the road get a bike with dropouts that allow the chain tension to be adjusted. You can put a Rohloff on pretty much any bike, but it's a much cleaner install without a chain tensioner.

Beyond that it really comes down to your gear. If you are going to run soft bags for the TD challenge yourself to run them for all your riding. The lack of weight on your bike means you don't need some overly stiff beast of burden that will beat you up when lightly loaded and you'll have more energy to explore and interact with your environment as well as the mobility to take harder/rougher tracks. With less stuff you'll break less parts and wear out components more slowly.

Carrying less stuff also has the mental benefit of taking less energy to manage/maintain/pack leaving you more in touch with what is going on around you.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

The bike in the OP got STOLEN! Please look out for it and notify me if you see anything. Bike got stolen in *Maastricht, the Netherlands* January 27, 2015.

Could you all keep your eyes and ears open? If you see anything on the internet please notify me.

Here is some info on the bike:

Frame: Cotic Soul III, maat M, kleur oranje
Headset: Hope HSCH & HSC1
Fork: Rockshox SID XX 120mm 15mm steekas, met pushlock, kleur wit
Topcap: Zwart
Wheels: Notubes Arch EX Black (26''), Hope Pro 2 EVO Black naven. Stickers zijn van de velgen gehaald.
Quick release: Achter: Hope, Voor: 15mm steekas
Front tire: Continental X-King 2.2
Rear tire: Continental X-King 2.2
Pedals: Shimano XT Trail
Crank: Sram X0 2x10 met carbon bash
Bottom Bracket: Hope
Chain: KMC X10L or SRAM
Cassette: Sram
Front derailleur: Sram X0 2x10
Rear derailleur: Sram X0 10 speed
Shifters: Sram X0 2x10
Handlebars: Easton EC90SL Riser 635mm
Grips: ODI
Stem: Race Face Turbine
Front brake: Hope Tech EVO X2, 183mm Floating Disk
Rear brake Hope Tech EVO X2, 160mm Floating Disk
Saddle: Brooks B17 bruin (zat een seatcover om)
Seatpost: Hope Eternity
Seatpost clamp: Hope

Pics:











































Some other marks: chainsuck damage and the SOUL logo is damaged a bit. Rear brake has no pressure and doesn't work. Note that the saddle on the picture is different than what is mounted now (Brooks B17).

Please, if anyone sees anything please notify me. The tip that brings my bike back will be rewarded (€€€€)!

If you want to share this post on Facebook to spread the word, please do so!

Spread the word and help a brother out please!

Thanks in advance.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

So, I don't expect I will ever see my Cotic again. As much as it hurts to lose this bike, I still decided to buy a new bike. More information will follow soon on my website. Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm very happy with the decision I made, although I had rather made the decision out of free will, not because some bastards stole my Soul...


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## Pynchonite (Sep 2, 2013)

Jumping on the Troll bandwagon here. I have a Surly Ogre and love it, but if you're planning on riding anywhere outside the US/Europe, it seems like 26" is the way to go. Never tried it, just repeating what I've heard on this forum and elsewhere.


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## JBHD (Apr 9, 2008)

Pynchonite said:


> Jumping on the Troll bandwagon here. I have a Surly Ogre and love it, but if you're planning on riding anywhere outside the US/Europe, it seems like 26" is the way to go. Never tried it, just repeating what I've heard on this forum and elsewhere.


I was inclined to give the same advice. To not go for 29'', but rather 26'' as that will be better available in countries outside the US/EU I mean. However, I still decided to go with 29''. I really noticed it was easier to keep going on a 29'' bike and it is just a bit more comfortable. I'm willing to take the risk of having difficulties finding a spare tire for that


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