# I've gone back to clipless. Anyone else switch back?



## bmwjnky (Mar 5, 2009)

I've recently switched back to clipless pedals since I got some lightly used Crank Brothers Mallet 3 pedals as a gift and other than park days in the summer I don't think I'll go back to flats. I didn't hate my flats but I could feel the loss of power on climbs and didn't like burning out my legs on climbs by only being able to push down and not make a full circle pedal stroke. Has anyone else gone back to clipless after being on flats for a couple years?


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Watch out. The flat pedal posse will roll in and tell you that you're a cheating...no skilled...full of bad habits rider if you use clipless. :lol:


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## rpearce1475 (Jan 24, 2015)

I switch back and forth. Use flats for more technical rides, clips for long rides (over 25 miles) or racing. I enjoy both, why not use both?


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

And not Or


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

rpearce1475 said:


> I switch back and forth. *Use flats for more technical rides*, clips for long rides (over 25 miles) or racing. I enjoy both, why not use both?


I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


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## blue_biker (Sep 7, 2008)

I use both. Flats when I need boots to stay warm or with my 5:10s when I feel like playing. Clipless when I am riding any decent distance.


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## rpearce1475 (Jan 24, 2015)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


Well I sure can't, and I've found I'm alot more confident riding skinnies and other trail features, thus more likely to try them, in flats


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

rpearce1475 said:


> Well I sure can't, and I've found I'm alot more confident riding skinnies and other trail features, thus more likely to try them, in flats


It's a matter of practice, practice builds confidence.


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

I'll say this... I have never never used flats as an excuse for not being able to climb a tough section or for anything else. However, I cannot tell you how many times I have listened to fellow riders use clips as an excuse for not trying a tough section or for falling over... happens all the time. Just my personal experience...


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## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


But can you get into your pedals as fast as someone on flats? One advantage of flats is getting started in high-tech terrain. And if your feet come out that easy, do they NEVER pre-release? Hate when that happens.

I miss the uphill power and hate slipping a pedal on steep technical climbs but really like the feel of the pedal spindle nearer the arch of my foot, which flats provide.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


This ^^^

Started on clipless 16 years ago and have never felt I had an issue getting out in a technical situation. Of course the 3 month learning curve can get painful but once your mind makes the connection, no problems.


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## bmwjnky (Mar 5, 2009)

I didn't have an issue with technical climbs, it was more of an issue on the long grinding climbs where I couldn't make full use of the pedal stroke with flats. I've also had more crashes on my flats than I ever did using toe clip pedals and clipless pedals.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

rpearce1475 said:


> I switch back and forth. Use flats for more technical rides, clips for long rides (over 25 miles) or racing. I enjoy both, why not use both?


Me too. Which I use depends on where Im riding.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Yep, I use both and swap regularly.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


So can I, but getting it back clipped in as quickly is a different story, and ~20 years after getting my first SPD's I still can't get it first-time every time.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


I cannot imaging riding flats again, and I feel more confident in technical stuff being clipped in. More bike control for me and quite a bit more power. YMMV


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I've been clipless for many years and on occasion, I will ride my wife's or a friends bike with flats. The only thing that I can equate it to is to me, it's like driving without my seat belt on. It feels awkward and inefficient. I find it particularly unsettling when riding on technical terrain. 

Perhaps it's little more than my acquired comfort of being on clipless for so long. But then I think about when I first went clipless and how quickly my confidence rose exponentially when challenged with technical climbs and unforgiving technical cruxes. 

So, in summary, I can't imagine going back to flats.


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

to each their own.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ 100% agreement. I have never attempted, nor felt the need to convince anyone that one pedal type is better than another.  It's whatever your comfort factor is.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cleared2land said:


> I've been clipless for many years and on occasion, I will ride my wife's or a friends bike with flats. The only thing that I can equate it to is to me, it's like driving without my seat belt on. It feels awkward and inefficient. I find it particularly unsettling when riding on technical terrain.
> 
> Perhaps it's little more than my acquired comfort of being on clipless for so long. But then I think about when I first went clipless and how quickly my confidence rose exponentially when challenged with technical climbs and unforgiving technical cruxes.
> 
> So, in summary, I can't imagine going back to flats.


So in summary, you feel naked and vulnerable on flats.

My thoughts exactly.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

Seems like I have been on SPD or TIME pedals since the early 90's, on a Mongoose IBOC Comp. I don't use flats, but I push most of my friends/newbies towards flats, if they bring up the subject. 1/2 my rides are Singlespeed, on steep long climbs, so I will always use SPD. This year I have been working on my skills of putting a foot down on fast technical turns, more than in the past. After 20 years of SPD's, I'm riding more aggressively than ever. Maybe it is the comfort level of clipping in and out effortlessly, as others have mentioned. Modern bikes are awesome too.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Cleared2land said:
> 
> 
> > I've been clipless for many years and on occasion, I will ride my wife's or a friends bike with flats. The only thing that I can equate it to is to me, it's like driving without my seat belt on. It feels awkward and inefficient. I find it particularly unsettling when riding on technical terrain.
> ...


YES! Nekid and vulnerable!

DJ, you nailed it exactly.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


I rode SPD for years and never had an issue getting a foot on the ground when I stalled out. But on flats are certainly easier to get away from the bike when things go wrong, like OTB or looping out and its easier to save the bike when you get a sudden front end tuck in a corner.

Flats take some time to figure out how to use well just like SPDs, each system has their pluses and minus. I feel I have more power in SPDs but corner more aggressively on flats. The only time I have issues with flats is when I try to ride them like SPDs and my foot rolls the pedal, but I have found if I drop my seat slightly it makes me keep my heals down more, forcing my foot into the pedal.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Cleared2land said:


> I've been clipless for many years and on occasion, I will ride my wife's or a friends bike with flats. The only thing that I can equate it to is to me, it's like driving without my seat belt on. It feels awkward and inefficient. I find it particularly unsettling when riding on technical terrain.
> 
> Perhaps it's little more than my acquired comfort of being on clipless for so long. But then I think about when I first went clipless and how quickly my confidence rose exponentially when challenged with technical climbs and unforgiving technical cruxes.
> 
> So, in summary, I can't imagine going back to flats.


Bear in mind not all flat pedals and shoes are the same. With proper foot wear and good flat pedals you really have plenty of traction, almost too much, really.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

hoolie said:


> . This year I have been working on my skills of putting a foot down on fast technical turns, more than in the past. After 20 years of SPD's, I'm riding more aggressively than ever. Maybe it is the comfort level of clipping in and out effortlessly, as others have mentioned. Modern bikes are awesome too.


Me too. On XT Trails now after years of CrankBros. I miss the smoothness as these Shimano don't have that. When I decided to get a new bike instead of another used one I began to want more performance from the rider, me. Seeing how those hotshots do it in the videos reminded me how I used to throw the inside leg forward to get my moto around tight corners. Simply unclipping and putting my foot out turned out not to be so simple. It's not the unclipping part I don't like, but how the I feel on the bike. I get the bike pretty low anyway and can pull the front tire back when it starts to slide. As hoolie said these new bikes are amazing. Plus having such wide bars helps to push the bike over, but that leverage sure makes popping in a front wheel that is sliding-out easy to do. I know I'm off topic but I am jazzed cause yesterday I rode one of the Canyon bikes. Even longer (but not lower) than my Kona, sweet. I also know I need to put some flats on and re-learn to ride because learning to control the bike is so rewarding!


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

bmwjnky said:


> I've recently switched back to clipless pedals since I got some lightly used Crank Brothers Mallet 3 pedals as a gift and other than park days in the summer I don't think I'll go back to flats. I didn't hate my flats but I could feel the loss of power on climbs and didn't like burning out my legs on climbs by only being able to push down and not make a full circle pedal stroke. Has anyone else gone back to clipless after being on flats for a couple years?


Myth: we are able to generate any significant power with the upstroke.










I ride both. The pros/cons are not obvious; but they have little to do with pedaling in circles.

Weird, not often discussed differences:

Harder to get foot into "home" position with flats than it is to clip in

Flats don't "float" like clip less pedals do which feels odd at first

Flats offer more power as you can more easily get spindle under arch of foot.

Easier to drop heals on flats for descending equals more control

Nice to not have to change shoes for the drive home

More control jumping because there isn't this feeling of coming unclipped


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## Barman1 (Jan 8, 2014)

YadaYadaYada.
I'll stick with my flats.


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## Big Fil (Nov 5, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So in summary, you feel naked and vulnerable on flats.
> 
> My thoughts exactly.


Sex feels better when naked, so do flat pedals when riding a bike. At least that's my experience.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Big Fil said:


> Sex feels better when naked, so do flat pedals when riding a bike. At least that's my experience.


But you haven't lived until you've rode naked with clipless. It's like you're one with the bike. Riding flats naked you feel naked and vulnerable.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


I have always ridden on either Power Straps (for only a few months after a short stint on plastic flats when I was 13 and started riding) or Clipless.

Did my first dedicated downhill course ride about 2 months ago, using my XT Clipless. 
I will say though, that was the first and only time I have ever been nervous about my clipless. I loved them, but a few times, I got kicked pretty good, and my foot clipped out. I didn't have any crashes or incidents as a result of clipping out, but as soon as I clipped out, I had zero control on my foot. I was able to click back in easily, but for a second or two, I definitely felt the desire to have flats, just for a larger, more forgiving platform.

For my normal riding (technical or not) I don't think I have ever tipped over or crashed (on the mountain bike) as a result of being in clipless pedals. GOOD clipless pedals are very nice to get out of.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

YadaYadaYada. I'll stick with my clipless.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Real men ride on just the pedal spindles anyway. 

Flats/clipless, it doesn't matter. Unless you remove the pedal and ride on the spindle, you're an amateur.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I started on flats, switched to clipless after a couple years, rode them for 10 years, back to flats.
I feel much more confident on flats now, especially in steep chunky stuff.

Bonus is I don't fight getting into them in tough terrain.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

chuckha62 said:


> YadaYadaYada. I'll stick with my clipless.


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## Bakudan (May 19, 2011)

I switched back to SPD on my full suspension bike. I like that my Shimano XC shoes have a stiff sole which translates to an easier pedal stroke compared to my floppy Fiveten Freeriders and Impacts. Hardtail gets some flat spiky pedals just 'cause I want to make that riding experience as different as possible.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

I guess in my mind, switching from flats to clipless then back to flats would be like drinking Colt 45, switching to micro brews, then deciding that Colt 45 is better. It just doesn't make any sense! :yikes:


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DIRTJUNKIE again.


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## Barman1 (Jan 8, 2014)

chuckha62 said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DIRTJUNKIE again.


I'll send you some, poacher.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DIRTJUNKIE again.


DJ has more reps than FC. Just send him money or good beer.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

I've been clipped in for years, I tend to use Crank Brothers which I love the action of although dislike the need to strip and rebuild them every few weeks, especially in the winter here in the UK, but I've just got used to this being the collateral damage of running what I feel are the perfect clipless pedal. However, over the past year or so I have developed really bad foot and ankle pain, I've tried everything, from new shoes, insoles etc to moving my cleats in numerous difference positions to see if I can improve things in terms of the discomfort I'm suffering.

I recently started reading what James Wilson of www.bikejames.com has to say on the issue of flats vs clipless and without going in to the detail he has, everything he says makes sense to me, I can completely relate to the fact that clipless pedals are the biggest contributor to my issues. I've been rocking flat pedals for a few weeks now and I'm currently awaiting a set of the Pedalling Innovations Catalyst Pedals that James has put in to production. I'm enjoying my riding again as I am pretty sure that my foot pain has been the instigator in my lack of motivation of late, my feet are beginning to feel strong and pain free again too which is great. I'm using some 510 Freerider Contacts too, which are the best flat pedal shoes I've found so far.

If anyone is interested in seeing what Jame's has to say, have a look at his other website http://pedalinginnovations.com which goes into great detail backed up by science (he'll even send you a 60 page pdf on the subject should you want to pursue the subject) on why clipless pedals are probably best to only use in a race or more competitive environment rather than every day use, like I've been mis-using them for years.

I like clipless pedals and I'm beginning to love flats again, once I remember where I put my bunny hop skills, I'll be well away!


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Harry Mackenzie said:


> I switched back to SPD on my full suspension bike. I like that my Shimano XC shoes have a stiff sole which translates to an easier pedal stroke compared to my floppy Fiveten Freeriders and Impacts. Hardtail gets some flat spiky pedals just 'cause I want to make that riding experience as different as possible.


While the shoes aren't as stiff as carbon sole shoes - they don't have to be because you have a stiff platform pedal under your foot that the clip less shoes emulate. Clip less pedals being smaller generally don't offer this kind of platform.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

SDMTB'er said:


> While the shoes aren't as stiff as carbon sole shoes - they don't have to be because you have a stiff platform pedal under your foot that the clip less shoes emulate. Clip less pedals being smaller generally don't offer this kind of platform.


Shoe stiffness has to do with foot comfort, MTB shoes were stiff even before the age of clipless. It keeps your foot from wrapping around the pedal. Also, if having the spindle under the arch of your foot made more sense for power application, clipless road shoes would already do that and MTB clipless would have adapted it without even talking about it.

The idea of having to change foot position from climbing to descending sounds rather silly, especially considering that you have to do it on each foot individually.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

I ride both. Mostly clipless, but I love flats for winter riding when the temps are cold so I can wear some nice warm boots.

Flats and clipless are way better than toe clips, which is what I started with. Total suckage!


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

I rode flats religiously for many years but I went back to clipless a few years ago. I get why people swear by flats, but the pedaling efficiency for me is just night and day with clipless.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

richde said:


> Shoe stiffness has to do with foot comfort, MTB shoes were stiff even before the age of clipless. It keeps your foot from wrapping around the pedal. Also, if having the spindle under the arch of your foot made more sense for power application, clipless road shoes would already do that and MTB clipless would have adapted it without even talking about it.
> 
> The idea of having to change foot position from climbing to descending sounds rather silly, especially considering that you have to do it on each foot individually.


See video, skip to 2:15.






Makes total sense. You recruit your legs better with a mid foot position.

My shimano clipless MTB shoes (again, I use both clip less and flats) allows me to move the cleats very far back (you can switch the position of the red spacers) and the product managers for this shoe specifically called this out in their market research as the reason they offered this.

Not only do you get more power in the downstroke, you also get a bit more "hook" when starting the upstroke.

These are my shoes:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

If the dude can't/won't even raise his saddle while talking about PEDALING, muscle recruitment, etc., I won't take him seriously. 

Not to mention, that bird has flown the coop. British Cycling (best funded, most successful cycling organization in the world, I'd argue) has tried and abandoned the midfoot cleat placement, and I'm guessing that was for a very good reason.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> If the dude can't/won't even raise his saddle while talking about PEDALING, muscle recruitment, etc., I won't take him seriously.
> 
> Not to mention, that bird has flown the coop. British Cycling (best funded, most successful cycling organization in the world, I'd argue) has tried and abandoned the midfoot cleat placement, and I'm guessing that was for a very good reason.


First you disregard his entire point (valid and shared by others for MTB if you do even a cursory search on the topic) because of where his saddle is. Then you reference a road cycling organization which is a different use case.

Ok, fine - another vid on the topic:






Skip to 1:00.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SDMTB'er said:


> First you disregard his entire point (valid and shared by others for MTB if you do even a cursory search on the topic) because of where his saddle is. Then you reference a road cycling organization which is a different use case.


Sorry, but a cursory look at their home page would reveal that they are responsible for road, dirt, and track cycling in the UK. They are the ones who select and train XC and BMX racers for the Olympics, and BMX, 4X, XC and DH racers for the World Championships. They also put on the British DH series, which is probably the best in the world.

And, the general principles of physiology and biomechanics don't change from surface to surface.

Here's a helpful hint as to what British Cycling does:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events?keywords=&view=off&distance=&postcode=&day_of_week[]=1&day_of_week[]=2&day_of_week[]=3&day_of_week[]=4&day_of_week[]=5&day_of_week[]=6&day_of_week[]=7&resultsperpage=30&series_only=0&online_entry_only=0&zuv_bc_event_filter_item_id[]=10&save-filter-name=

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/?series_id=413


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

I am neither faster nor slower on platforms or clipless, so I chose platforms after years of riding clipless.

So many benefits that I doubt I'll ever go back.



Like the hippies used to say...If it feels good do it!


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Sorry, but a cursory look at their home page would reveal that they are responsible for road, dirt, and track cycling in the UK. They are the ones who select and train XC and BMX racers for the Olympics, and BMX, 4X, XC and DH racers for the World Championships. They also put on the British DH series, which is probably the best in the world.
> 
> And, the general principles of physiology and biomechanics don't change from surface to surface.
> 
> ...


You are correct. That is why for descending, riding flat pedals on the balls of your feet is not considered beneficial physiologically. You have way more control and stability with the pedal more towards the middle of your foot with your heel dropped. I haven't seen a single free rider, slope style, or even casual trail rider who rides with the pedal spindle under the ball of the foot when using flat pedals. It shouldn't be different for clipless pedals, and Shimano realized this and got it right with their new generation MTB shoes.

For pedaling, it is not beneficial to use balls of feet any more than doing squats or lunges on the balls of your feet.

In general, people set their cleats too far forward.

Great read here: http://www.neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=348


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

SDMTB'er said:


> You are correct.
> 
> it is beneficial to use balls more than doing squats or lunges


I copied this directly from sdmtb's post and I could not agree more.:thumbsup:

Sorry, I need to drink less and ride more.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

SDMTB'er said:


> See video, skip to 2:15.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What model is that & do they make one sans laces? Shimano shoes are fantastic imo.

I've literally redrilled etc to move my cleats further back. Do they make a road shoe with the same system? I completely agree with you on foot position/bike control. Furthermore it fatigues my calves & stabilizing muscles noticeably more with a forward position. One last advantage, when you land a large drop or slam into a root or rock etc, a forward position puts your ankle in a more vulnerable/less powerful position. There's simply more leverage (one can't argue this)


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Speed Goat said:


> I copied this directly from sdmtb's post and I could not agree more.:thumbsup:
> 
> Sorry, I need to drink less and ride more.












I don't mean to get off topic but: You do know your avatar is a Pronghorn Antelope and not a goat, right? I get the reference of the speed of the Pronghorn but some around here may get confused out in the wild. Judging from some of the responses I've seen in the wildlife threads.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I don't mean to get off topic but: You do know your avatar is a Pronghorn Antelope and not a goat, right? I get the reference of the speed of the Pronghorn but some around here may get confused out in the wild. Judging from some of the responses I've seen in the wildlife threads.


Find any hillbilly ******* from Wyoming, Montana, or Colorado and ask them what a speed goat is. They all will reply, pronghorn antelope, also known as Antelocapra americana.:rockon:

I see you're using the word "BRAAP" at the bottom of your posts with a small biker guy. In this part of the world, that has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of biking (pedal or motorized), and everything to do with sledding (snowmobiles for the lay person). :cornut:

Thanks for keeping me honest Dirtjunkie!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Speed Goat said:


> Find any hillbilly ******* from Wyoming, Montana, or Colorado and ask them what a speed goat is. They all will reply, pronghorn antelope, also known as Antelocapra americana.:rockon:
> 
> I see you're using the word "BRAAP" at the bottom of your posts with a small biker guy. In this part of the world, that has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of biking (pedal or motorized), and everything to do with sledding (snowmobiles for the lay person). :cornut:
> 
> Thanks for keeping me honest Dirtjunkie!


I'm "in" Colorado and I'm familiar with the term. Hell Proghorns are like rabbits they are so common on the flat lands. But as you said who is going to know that term but those that live in those few states. And yes BRAAP has everything to do with motocross in this part of the world. It crossed over to a snowmobiling term in recent years. I also grew up riding snowmobiles and it was never a term for that sport. Now the sleds are so popular in the high country and with the wealthy younger crowd, I'm sure a whole new lingo has evolved.

[I'm old school so the term snowmobiling or sleds is what I knew it as] 

It was all in good fun talking about your avatar.

BTW I like your name and avatar. It's just that I'm sure many [not from those states] would be confused not knowing what the heck a Pronghorn Antelope is.  In relation to a goat.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

VTSession said:


> I rode flats religiously for many years but I went back to clipless a few years ago. I get why people swear by flats, but the pedaling efficiency for me is just night and day with clipless.


Apparently you missed the chart and links that 'prove' you are mistaken.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Apparently you missed the chart and links that 'prove' you are mistaken.


Here is another 






What are you providing other than your opinion of people's opinions? 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> What model is that & do they make one sans laces? Shimano shoes are fantastic imo.
> 
> I've literally redrilled etc to move my cleats further back. Do they make a road shoe with the same system? I completely agree with you on foot position/bike control. Furthermore it fatigues my calves & stabilizing muscles noticeably more with a forward position. One last advantage, when you land a large drop or slam into a root or rock etc, a forward position puts your ankle in a more vulnerable/less powerful position. There's simply more leverage (one can't argue this)


I know, right? All the calve does is stabilize the ankle. Other than sprinting at 110 percent, the calve does not aid the power portion of the downstroke and the myth of the "pedal in circles thing" continues. Your landing off a drop / jump point is also spot on.

Shimano SH M200 are the shoes I use. They have laces but you can lace them so they are tight enough while still allowing you to slip them off and on with just unbuckling the top buckle.

I also use Shimano SH XC70 shoes for XC and they also feature the ability to move the clear further back.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SDMTB'er said:


> What are you providing other than your opinion of people's opinions?


A little levity? Also perhaps a hint of truth backed up by actual experience? I realize that's not as solid as copying & pasting a bunch of links but still, no reason to belittle


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> A little levity? Also perhaps a hint of truth backed up by actual experience? I realize that's not as solid as copying & pasting a bunch of links but still, no reason to belittle


Another, more scientific paper published in peer review journal:

Abstract:

The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev · min−1 and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke.

There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP.

When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-2008-1038374

Everyone had their perspective, but everyone also has bias. For example - if you ride clipless 99 percent of the time, then do one ride on flats, draw conclusions and post it here as fact, that is silly, don't you agree? Same if you ride flats 99 percent of the time and go clipless and ***** about how hard it is to unclip, etc. after one ride.

I choose clipless for less technical, and longer rides (they are on my XC bike) and flats for more technical (they are on my AM bike). Personally, I like flats for sessioning and improving bike handling skills. I also feel freer and more stable during cornering and descending although I have no issues getting out of clipless because I use the multi release (silver) shimano SPD cleats and ride a ton (almost 4K miles this year).

Another thing - the grip 5.10s offer on good flat pedals offers all you need for continuing your pedal stroke through the bottom of the stroke. That was the thing that blew my mind when I first tried.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

SDMTB'er said:


> For example - if you ride clipless 99 percent of the time, then do one ride on flats, draw conclusions and post it here as fact, that is silly, don't you agree?


That would be silly, what are you implying?


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> That would be silly, what are you implying?


I think there are a good percentage of folks with "valid opinions" where their perception of flats is derived from "experiences" like this: They get a few rides in on flats, use crappy pedals, crappy shoes, or all of the above and then declare clipless is better.

While I enjoy reading about other viewpoints, I also enjoy achieving a deeper understanding of the topic at hand and trying to shed my own bias.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Apparently you missed the chart and links that 'prove' you are mistaken.


Wouldn't be the first time humans gained more knowledge beyond their experiences. At one point, there was a scientist who proved we rotated around the sun, even though most of us all thought the sun moved around us.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SDMTB'er said:


> Here is another
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not riding around at half-speed for hours and hours on end.

Efficiency is not power production. You know that, right?

Here's a peer reviewed paper that deals with a bit more relevant topic: Power production.

Effet de l'utilisation de pédales automatiques sur les caractéristiques mécaniques mesurées lors de sprints sur cycloergomètre non isocinétique

"Results.

The results show a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clip-less pedals were used, whatever the friction force applied.

Conclusions.

This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular coordination."


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I spent much of the 90s and early 2000s clipped in, but started running flats as bikes got more and more travel. After riding on one leg through ultra gnarly sections of DH courses desperately trying to get clipped back in, I swore off clipless for all but the mildest of XC applications.

Fast forward to today, and I'm still on flats for all riding. As others have mentioned, modern flats with modern sticky shoes provide insane grip. So much grip, in fact, that I can get power all the way past the bottom of each pedal stroke; pedalling in circles, in other words. At times, I've even thought about filing the pins on my pedals so they're LESS grippy.

For the climbing I do, which is most often what people would describe as gruelling, technical, and relentless, I pedal seated for 95% of the time. I find no benefit to clipping in on those conditions, and my times prove it. I believe that concerning seated climbing, "the extra efficiency" of clipping in is perceived, not actual.

That said, I think the only area where clipping in truly yields an advantage is in pedalling while standing and sprinting, particularly in the rough. If I ever got serious about racing DH (or enduro) again, I would look into clipless pedals with surrounding platforms -- but only on courses with lots of pedalling.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SDMTB'er, here's the full conclusion to that paper you referenced earlier:

"In conclusion, shoe-pedal interface did not have any influence on
either the mechanical efficiency, the pedalling mechanics or the
muscular activity during submaximal cycling. Feedback based
on pedal forces representation could be used to develop a new
pedalling pattern, characterised by an enhanced active pullingup
action during the upstroke phase. *Subjects benefited from
this pulling-up action by increasing their pedalling effectiveness,
but this new pedalling pattern was associated with an impairment
of the mechanical efficiency.* Finally, cycling experience
did not appear to influence the mechanical efficiency."

My emphasis in bold.

Clipless pedals allow you to pull up, particularly on very steep hills, generating more power, over a longer period of time. "Pedal effectiveness" equates to more power per revolution of the pedals.

Efficiency isn't really relevant to people unless they don't have food, are going for an incredibly long ride, or some combination of those two. It's basically a measure of fuel (calories) used for a distance pedaled.


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

isn't this "pulling up" motion more of a "scraping mud" off your shoe type motion?

some of you don't actually lift up your leg do you?


anyways, i can do the whole pedal stroke just as well on flats, including the mud scrape.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bt said:


> isn't this "pulling up" motion more of a "scraping mud" off your shoe type motion?
> 
> some of you don't actually lift up your leg do you?
> 
> anyways, i can do the whole pedal stroke just as well on flats, including the mud scrape.


Correct. I'd say it stops at 7 o'clock, where 3 o'clock is the crankarm pointing forward.

Although, I can, if necessary, drag it most of the way around. A scenario where this might be employed would be a super steep climb where I'm already dedicated to making it up and fear that shifting to an easier gear might not be pleasant to my drivetrain. Picture a trail leading down into a g-out, and a super steep climb back up.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> SDMTB'er, here's the full conclusion to that paper you referenced earlier:
> 
> "In conclusion, shoe-pedal interface did not have any influence on
> either the mechanical efficiency, the pedalling mechanics or the
> ...


Unfortunately, "pulling up" on a clipless pedal is an action contrary to the basic function of our physiology. If you _truly _are consistently assisting the pedal stroke by pulling up on the back stroke, the resulting severity of the associated sports injury you incur over time will likely be directly proportional to the amount of force you use to execute that motion.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jncarpenter said:


> Unfortunately, "pulling up" on a clipless pedal is an action contrary to the basic function of our physiology. If you _truly _are consistently assisting the pedal stroke by pulling up on the back stroke, the resulting severity of the associated sports injury you incur over time will likely be directly proportional to the amount of force you use to execute that motion.


Yes, and I don't do it all the time. I very rarely do it.

The text I bolded was intended to show that it can be used to provide extra power when needed. My next response, to bt, was providing a very specific example of that.

I recognize that it is not the natural pedaling motion.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I must give this thread an A+ for effort.


The bottom line is every rider has their own opinions and the fact that clipless is a far superior more efficient way of travel is sometimes lost on the platform crowd.

I'm not always right but when I am it's all the time.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not riding around at half-speed for hours and hours on end.
> 
> Efficiency is not power production. You know that, right?
> 
> ...


Le Duke, do you have access to the main article? I was wondering if they said how much more power was produced with clipless? Thanks.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

IPunchCholla said:


> Le Duke, do you have access to the main article? I was wondering if they said how much more power was produced with clipless? Thanks.


http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PD...lfeldt_Artikel_Feedback_Pedalkraefte_2008.pdf

They measured this stuff via electromyography. So, they basically wire up the test subjects' legs with some sensors and record the electrical potentials as the muscles fire. They also used an SRM, but I don't see any raw power data in there.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

pick a pedal type and be a dick about it


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

ryguy79 said:


> pick a pedal type and be a dick about it


LOL
Pretty much what's going on in here.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> This ^^^
> 
> Started on clipless 16 years ago and have never felt I had an issue getting out in a technical situation. Of course the 3 month learning curve can get painful but once your mind makes the connection, no problems.


DJ and Ronnie are spot on. You never leave cliplesss. The learning curve sucks, but once you get past it there aren't any issues. Tech terrain, teeter totter, anything.


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## Rue (Jan 4, 2015)

There is no question the full upstroke can add power for short periods of time. If you imagine the running drill "buttkickers", that's the motion needed. Driving your heels up to your butt will deliver additional power from 5 o'clock to about 11 o'clock in the upstroke. 

But -- this is really just "reserve" power, and it's not nearly as strong as the downstroke, plus you're fighting gravity. Anyone claiming they are generating symmetrical power around 360 degrees of stroke is sniffing glue -- the same glue being sniffed by anyone who claims the upstroke is a negligible power input. When the quads are smoked, you can usually maintain speed on flats by switching to hams and glutes for 60 seconds or so. In a climb you might get a few seconds of boost, but it's a fraction of what rested quads can produce.

The big advantage to the otherwise inefficient and painful upstroke is it allows your quads some precious recovery time when they are cashed. When I'm approaching a climb tired, I'll spend the last 20 seconds driving the heels upward hard -- but that doesn't last long. As I carry momentum into the hill I switch back to quad power (whatever is left of it) and hopefully they have recovered some from that 20 seconds of rest.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Does anybody in here actually "mountain bike"?


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Does anybody in here actually "mountain bike"?


Not if they're riding flats.  Or clipless, or 29ers, or tires less than 2.5 inches wide.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Rod said:


> DJ and Ronnie are spot on. You never leave cliplesss. The learning curve sucks, but once you get past it there aren't any issues. Tech terrain, teeter totter, anything.


Maybe _you_ will never leave clipless.

However, I did after after 18 years. I didn't switch back to flats because I had any issues with clipless. Just a bit of a change in my riding style. There was about a 6 month span that I was riding both depending on which bike I took out, but now all my bikes have flats. I only ride for fun and I'm having more fun unclipped these days. I also rode a lot of BMX as a kid and the flat pedal feel took about half a ride to come right back.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Not the most scientific..





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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

For road, cross, or my HT...it's 100% clipless. Been on SPDs for over 20 years. Never had issues getting out. Never had issues getting in. If I bought a new #enduro#flatbrim#dropper#650#lowlongslack I would try flats with 510s to see how it was. I like riding my sons' BMX bikes with Vans and keeping my bunny hopping skills up!

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## phoeneous (Mar 7, 2005)

Captain here, pretty sure we can agree which pedal is the flat out winner.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

TiGeo said:


> For road, cross, or my HT...it's 100% clipless. Been on SPDs for over 20 years. Never had issues getting out. Never had issues getting in. If I bought a new #enduro#flatbrim#dropper#650#lowlongslack I would try flats with 510s to see how it was. I like riding my sons' BMX bikes with Vans and keeping my bunny hopping skills up!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


This threads about as bad as the Awesome Strap VS Seat Bag thread of yesteryear. 

Happy New Year! ya bunch of over analyzing nuts.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> I don't really get that. I've only ever used SPD pedals so don't know about others but I feel I can get my foot onto the ground as fast as anyone with flats.


Yeah but try clipping back in, after you have dabbed while descending some nasty chute or steep rocky tech section. No one admits to having trouble unclipping, and I don't really think that is an issue many people have. But clipping back in when you are barely hanging on in the gnar can come down to pure luck at best. This is the biggest reason I stick with flats. You never have to worry about getting your foot back on the pedal when you really need it there.

The other main reason I stick to flats is that I do a lot of backcountry riding that can involve lots of hike a bike. I can't imagine doing long HABs in clipless shoes. Brutal...



VTSession said:


> I rode flats religiously for many years but I went back to clipless a few years ago. I get why people swear by flats, but the pedaling efficiency for me is just night and day with clipless.


I have ridden both flats and clipless for many years. The only times I notice an obvious advantage to clipless was when riding a singlespeed, and when climbing something steep and technical where pulling up hard is needed to clear something. For most riding/climbing I don't notice any difference at all in efficiency - with 5-10s I can power through 3/4 of my pedal stroke on flats, and I always felt awkward trying to pull up on clipless unless I stood up.

I've seen stats that clipless pedals are at most 11% more efficient than flats. That could be a big difference if you are racing. But for recreational riders which 99% of us are, lets be honest we have a lot more to gain simply by getting in shape than you will gain by changing equipment. I laugh every time I see some newb comment they are thinking of "upgrading" to clipless. Seems a lot of people are attracted to clipless because it is specialized gear that will make other people think they are more hardcore.

At the end of the day, ride whatever you are most comfortable with. But don't switch because someone on the internet tells you one is better than the other. Each has situations where it is more ideal, and only you can determine what is best for you and your riding. The biggest mistake people make IMO is not spending enough time on both types of pedal before passing judgment. It takes a good couple months, possibly much longer for some to really get used to either type.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

BTW...we aren't even close to the awesomeness that was the strap vs. seatbag thread.

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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

DethWshBkr said:


> I have always ridden on either Power Straps (for only a few months after a short stint on plastic flats when I was 13 and started riding) or Clipless.
> 
> Did my first dedicated downhill course ride about 2 months ago, using my XT Clipless.
> I will say though, that was the first and only time I have ever been nervous about my clipless. I loved them, but a few times, I got kicked pretty good, and my foot clipped out. I didn't have any crashes or incidents as a result of clipping out, but as soon as I clipped out, I had zero control on my foot. I was able to click back in easily, but for a second or two, I definitely felt the desire to have flats, just for a larger, more forgiving platform.
> ...


Some clipless pedals release too easily, even with the tension cranked up. When coming down hard off of air, or really blasting through a hard corner I've come unclipped.

We call it a blowout.

This doesn't happen with flats.

One pedal that keeps me locked in better, where I've yet to get a blowout, is the CB DH Mallet. Nice pedal. I've migrated away for my favorite Shimanos.

Tech climbing is much easier for me clipped in, and he have a lot of that around here, and for that I'm clipped.

For Pinkbike runs, long and easy to the top, and bomb back down, I prefer flats.

Flats are also more comfortable as well. I think they enforce better technique too so are better for newbies.

Different horses for different courses.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> Not the most scientific..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They acknowledge that, but more so than many n of 1 opinions stated here on this thread.

VO2 Max comparison
Blood lactate comparison
HR comparison
Same environmental conditions

What was interesting if he was used to flats and had dedicated flat pedal shoes, the numbers may have favored flats even more.


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## phride (Sep 14, 2015)

I've done the opposite. After 15+ years on clipless, I've switched back to flats. The thin profile flats and good shoes provide plenty of power transfer, allowing me to use the full length of my quads and use some of my hamstrings to turn the pedals. I only miss the upstroke when trying to pull my rear wheel over an obstacle or the crux of a steep climb, where I've stalled out, but I'm getting better at hopping my bike forward in those situations. I don't mind losing a little bit of upstroke power, as the hip flexors fatigue quickly and thus don't provide much overall. More importantly, they attach to the lumbar spine, so relying on them for more than the rare technical moment causes me back pain. It's simply not worth it. As an added bonus, my bike handling skills are getting better on the flats.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I'm on flats after almost 20 years clipless. I ride a lot of steep and techy terrain and would have trouble getting clipped back in. This is unnerving, as I feel helpless without the foot clipped in. With flats I just stick my foot on and I'm secure even if my position is off a bit. Another reason is that we have a bit of snow this winter and my cleat pockets woul clog with snow, preventing me from clipping in. Once Winter is over and I feel one with the flats I plan to switch depending on the ride. As far as hike a bike, my clipless shoes, Teva Pivots are great.


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

I don't have any problems clipping in or or clipping out and those are not the reasons I ride flats.

edit: not a response to the above post


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

evdog said:


> Yeah but try clipping back in, after you have dabbed while descending some nasty chute or steep rocky tech section. No one admits to having trouble unclipping, and I don't really think that is an issue many people have. But clipping back in when you are barely hanging on in the gnar can come down to pure luck at best. This is the biggest reason I stick with flats. You never have to worry about getting your foot back on the pedal when you really need it there.


Well this statement may go for some but not me. I ride clipless and if I dab in a steep technical section I'm back clipped in, in seconds. It's probably due to the pedal choice. There are different mechanisms for clipping in or out with different brand pedals. I ride Time ATAC which is a very simple clip in or out design. To clip back in, is as is simple as putting your ball of your foot on the pedal with a touch of down pressure and you're clipped back in. How hard is that after a dab in a tough section? Not hard at all.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

SDMTB'er said:


> They acknowledge that, but more so than many n of 1 opinions stated here on this thread.
> 
> VO2 Max comparison
> Blood lactate comparison
> ...


Yes, I felt like he should have used the newer shoes that are made for use with flats vs. clipless-type mountain shoes (how horrible would that be with flats?!?!). He is also just riding along there...not really a good test as it would be during a true road ride with getting up and hammering etc. Look, if flats were more efficient for spinning the roadies would all be using them to gain any advantage they could. I just don't think the differences in the various metrics were statistically different enough to say anything with a single test. Like the effort though and I think it just shows that you aren't really gaining as much as you think by being able to pull up during your stroke.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I hope everyone can agree that toe clips and straps were not great!

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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

I prefer a heavy duty bolt screwed into the crank arms!


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

evdog said:


> The other main reason I stick to flats is that I do a lot of backcountry riding that can involve lots of hike a bike. I can't imagine doing long HABs in clipless shoes. Brutal...


Interestingly, this is one of the reasons I prefer clips for my riding. Chances are, if I'm walking there's slippery clay/mud involved, and trying to do that in shoes with flat rubbery soles is hopeless. I've ridden flats many years ago, and some day when I have a few hundred dollars spare for a good set of shoes/pedals I'd like to try them again over summer. It would be a fun experiment, but with the long forest road climbs and slippery underfoot conditions I can't see them becoming my every day choice.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

ryguy79 said:


> Maybe _you_ will never leave clipless.
> 
> However, I did after after 18 years. I didn't switch back to flats because I had any issues with clipless. Just a bit of a change in my riding style. There was about a 6 month span that I was riding both depending on which bike I took out, but now all my bikes have flats. I only ride for fun and I'm having more fun unclipped these days. I also rode a lot of BMX as a kid and the flat pedal feel took about half a ride to come right back.


I believe most of us ride for fun. As long as you're happy. I don't ever see myself needing to bail midair or push the bike away midair, which are the big reasons I would ever use flats. Happy New Year.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> Does anybody in here actually "mountain bike"?


Why, yes. Yes I do.



















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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

So I have one bike clipless , the other has flats. Where am I in this


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

terrasmak said:


> So I have one bike clipless , the other has flats. Where am I in this


Lol - me too.


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## Chiang Mai (Jan 26, 2015)

One of the worst injuries I had was on flat when at speed somehow my leg slipped in front on the pedal onto the ground and really torqued my calf/achilles from behind. Would not have happened on SPD's.


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## bgkz25 (Dec 29, 2013)

IMHO as long as your shoes is in contact with the flats, given the correct pedals (with tiny pikes), the correct shoes, and proper footing on pedal you can avoid that slippage.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

SDMTB'er said:


> Lol - me too.


Me three.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Chiang Mai said:


> One of the worst injuries I had was on flat when at speed somehow my leg slipped in front on the pedal onto the ground and really torqued my calf/achilles from behind. Would not have happened on SPD's.


What pedals? What shoes? All flats and shoes are not the same.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

I've got some 2016 FiveTen Freeride Contacts which are excellent with RaceFace Atlas flats, there as close to being clipped in as I've ever felt on flat pedals. I'm looking forward to trying them out with the Peddling Innovations Catalysts.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Just J said:


> I've got some 2016 FiveTen Freeride Contacts which are excellent with RaceFace Atlas flats, there as close to being clipped in as I've ever felt on flat pedals. I'm looking forward to trying them out with the Peddling Innovations Catalysts.


Have same exact setup. Traction for days.


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## John (Apr 25, 2004)

I have always ridden clipless (Time ATAC) for almost 15 years, and only very recently have I installed platform pedals onto my dedicated DH/All Mountain bike. I have no need for speed, but I love the connected feel only clipless gives when riding a technical trail, rock garden, rough descent, or hard climb.

The ONLY advantage (for me personally) in riding platform pedals is on the steep extremely difficult technical terrain such as lift serviced mountains (black and double black natural trails). It is VERY difficult and unsafe trying to get clipped back in when the trail is steep and there is no run out smooth enough to get the other foot clipped before getting into the $H1T. I hate bouncing down the trail after missing that second foot, and no nice safe way to stop again. Balls.

So I have grudgingly installed platforms (Xpedo SPRY) on my Enduro, bought some Five Ten high ankle shoes, and will now be able to ride the trails, and remount if I have to get off and scope out difficult dangerous lines that I am unfamiliar with. I love being clipped in, and I will ride seriously dangerous rough technical trails any time clipped in, but getting on the bike and starting again in the middle of it can be very difficult.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

If you spend enough time on flats, have decent equipment (pedals/ shoes), and utilize the proper technique, flats are just as "connected" feeling and equally secure.
I have ridden for decades on both flat & clipless, but for the majority of my riding I prefer flats.

A good test to see if you have the proper technique with flats is bunny hopping. If you have no issues performing one with clipless, but cannot do it with flats...you likely are using bad technique (on either type of pedal). Once you learn to dip the heel & create tension between the feet & handlebars, you will experience the same level of security on your flats as clipless. 

The biggest difference to me is, you can re-position your feet easily on flats...not so much with clipless.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Chiang Mai said:


> One of the worst injuries I had was on flat when at speed somehow my leg slipped in front on the pedal onto the ground and really torqued my calf/achilles from behind. Would not have happened on SPD's.


I got 11 stitches from a SPD on the back of my ankle. Sliced it wide open.


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

spd's killed my family.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

terrasmak said:


> So I have one bike clipless , the other has flats. Where am I in this


Pretty much screwed. No opinion can sometimes be a good thing.


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## phride (Sep 14, 2015)

terrasmak said:


> So I have one bike clipless , the other has flats. Where am I in this


You are wrong on both counts,...obviously.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

XT spd's on my AM whip... nice and easy to get into. Occasionally a foot can pop out when not wanting it to.  (they have some float which I feel causes them to unclip after landing from a moderate huck).

On my XC/Trail 29er I have Wellgo spd's and once in there's no accidental getting out (i.e. no float, which I think I prefer). 

When riding XC-ish trails they are wonderful. However on rocky techy gnar (which I've been riding a bit lately)... they are a pharkin nightmare to get back into to!?

I do feel clipless is more efficient and you can change up your pedal technique to give certain muscles a little active rest.

Flats offer a lot of trail confidence. I would likely be all the time flats if my left foot didn't wander (old injury). 

A wander, one day... has left me some nice scars on left calf.

Not being able to dab has left me with a separated AC joint (right side). I had a close call midweek on a really gnarly trail w/ lots of step ups. Stalling and not unclipping as I'd hoped left me with a good hip bruise and forearm scrape (Wellgo's).

Only problem I see w/ flats is how expensive a flat, stiff soled shoe is!

-----------------------------------------------------------
#1 resolution... Ride it like I stole it!!


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

B


jncarpenter said:


> If you spend enough time on flats, have decent equipment (pedals/ shoes), and utilize the proper technique, flats are just as "connected" feeling and equally secure.
> I have ridden for decades on both flat & clipless, but for the majority of my riding I prefer flats.
> 
> A good test to see if you have the proper technique with flats is bunny hopping. If you have no issues performing one with clipless, but cannot do it with flats...you likely are using bad technique (on either type of pedal). Once you learn to dip the heel & create tension between the feet & handlebars, you will experience the same level of security on your flats as clipless.
> ...


Agreed.

I too feel more connected with flats. Riding on a cleat feels like I've got a bottle cap between me and the pedal.

Big advantage with being clipped is on techie climbs, which we have a lot of.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

phride said:


> You are wrong on both counts,...obviously.


haha!


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

Miker J said:


> Big advantage with being clipped is on techie climbs, which we have a lot of.


We have a few somewhat techie climbs here in Western Colorado as well 
I have yet to wish I was riding clipped in...


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## phride (Sep 14, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Efficiency isn't really relevant to people unless they don't have food, are going for an incredibly long ride, or some combination of those two. It's basically a measure of fuel (calories) used for a distance pedaled.


I didn't want to get into this, but this is so fundamentally off-base that I have to jump-in and offer a correction. I'm not sure how you got from net mechanical efficiency to a discussion of caloric intake (even if the researchers measured caloric output), but that's besides the point, as long as other folks reading this thread understand that you can't reduce efficiency to what you had for lunch.

The net efficiency considered in the article that you were discussing is mechanical efficiency, which is a measure of energy input to energy output. In this context, a more perfectly efficient pedaling motion is one where muscular activity is directly transferred to the pedals (i.e., where the effort spent is not lost in unnecessary body movement or pedal interface slop (e.g., squishy rubber soles). Inefficient movement does not just burn calories. It actually slows a rider working at a given physiological output. In a more practical sense, inefficient pedaling leads to fatigue, glycogen depletion, and reduced power and work capacity. This is especially true for the small muscles that pull a pedal from the 5 o-clock to the 11 o-clock position, because they are small muscles, which quickly fatigue, and therefore can only offer marginal long-term or periodic more significant gains.

The pulling-up motion is inefficient for a number of reasons. It is much harder to stabilize the body and resist a pedal pull when seated than it is to lean on a pedal push. In the former case, you have the strength of your core to resist, whereas in the latter you have your entire mass. Furthermore, pulling is performed with weaker muscles (primarily the psoas and illiacus) than pushing or extending (most of the quads) or even pulling back at the base of the pedal stroke (biceps femoris), the latter of which can be done on flats.

Granted, the research cited is far from perfect. Measuring output over 8-second bursts, as done in the article you cited, or at 60% of aerobic capacity when telling someone to "actively pull" and therefore think about pulling are hardly definitive studies. We know there is an advantage to clipless pedals because stopwatches have proven that there is. In short, there are some power gains to be had from clipless pedals over flats, and there are some technical advantages (being able to pull the bike along behind you) and some technical disadvantages (having to move laterally to unclip). In my math, the technical disadvantages outweigh the technical advantages and power output, but others mileage may vary. Our caloric intake, however, has precious little to do with it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

The "research" quoted from the linked GMBN video concluded that people are more efficient at 200w using flats. IIRC, they stated lower HR, etc. In their results. Lower HR, per most exercise physiology types I've talked to, means less calories burned. It takes a certain number of calories to produce 200w for a given length of time. That's a measure of efficiency, and we can compare rates from person to person like we do with cars. 

What that "study" did not show, and what no research has ever shown, to my knowledge, is that people produce more sustained power using flats, compared to clipless. 

So, if you pedal at 200w and want to be (very) slightly more efficient, that's cool.






Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

So some if you are actually reading every post in here? And then analyzing it.


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## tigerteeuwen (Jul 29, 2014)

I ride flats on my fat bike because of the 4.8's is like having a full suspension bike.
It has been fun, haven't noticed to many issues but I feel like the tires and the snow have really smoothed out the trails though.

though with my actual go to mtb which is a hardtail 29er I much prefer my spd clips, specifically as my local single track is very rooted, and narrow, I found my feet occasionally hopped around even with my super grippy 5-10's. Entered a race with my clips, definitely can't see myself concentrating over a 70km hard ride about my feet the entire time.

If I took the easy way out on the local trails and rode a full suspension I would perhaps use flats........(i realize that statement will ruffle some feathers) edit... (Also because I can't afford a top range full suspension that I would be happy with currently... Lol)


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

tigerteeuwen said:


> If I took the easy way out on the local trails and rode a full suspension I would perhaps use flats........(i realize that statement will ruffle some feathers)


I ride a full suspension fat bike, I don't even need pedals


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## tigerteeuwen (Jul 29, 2014)

Ducman said:


> I ride a full suspension fat bike, I don't even need pedals


Because if it's from bikes direct it's probably currently under warranty right?......


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

tigerteeuwen said:


> Because if it's from bikes direct it's probably currently under warranty right?......


Lol
Well played


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## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

I have one SPD and one flat on my AM bike and one flat and one eggbeater on my XC bike and one Mallet and one Time ATAC on my DH bike.


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## NesquikNinja (May 7, 2013)

https://igcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.n...-15/11311245_344516615747724_1325716274_n.jpg


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## phride (Sep 14, 2015)

tigerteeuwen said:


> With my actual go to mtb which is a hardtail 29er I much prefer my spd clips, specifically as my local single track is very rooted, and narrow, I found my feet occasionally hopped around even with my super grippy 5-10's. Entered a race with my clips, definitely can't see myself concentrating over a 70km hard ride about my feet the entire time.


If you're getting bounced about on flats, try lowering your seat so you have more pressure on the pedals at the bottom of the stroke. It's slightly lower than you need to effectively pedal through the bottom of the stroke, so it's probably slightly less efficient, but it's the most stable I've felt on the bike, including being clipped-in.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

John said:


> The ONLY advantage (for me personally) in riding platform pedals is on the steep extremely difficult technical terrain such as lift serviced mountains (black and double black natural trails). It is VERY difficult and unsafe trying to get clipped back in when the trail is steep and there is no run out smooth enough to get the other foot clipped before getting into the $H1T. I hate bouncing down the trail after missing that second foot, and no nice safe way to stop again. Balls....
> I love being clipped in, and I will ride seriously dangerous rough technical trails any time clipped in, but getting on the bike and starting again in the middle of it can be very difficult.


I feel exactly the same way. 
Another plus is that the smaller area of most clipless systems helps reduce pedal strikes on technical climbs.


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## tigerteeuwen (Jul 29, 2014)

phride said:


> If you're getting bounced about on flats, try lowering your seat so you have more pressure on the pedals at the bottom of the stroke. It's slightly lower than you need to effectively pedal through the bottom of the stroke, so it's probably slightly less efficient, but it's the most stable I've felt on the bike, including being clipped-in.


You know I probably will give them another go on my 29er this year, I think your right about my seat height, I have it at the highest height for maximum power on pedal stroke.

On my fat bike with flats I have been running it a tad bit lower then usual and it has been really good so far.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Last I purchased a 140mm travel bike for riding the gnar when it presents itself. I am an XC guy by region and generally 100mm travel covers it.

I've been a clipless pedal guy for several years and everyone suggested that I go back to flats for this new bike. I tried and I just can't ride those pedals anymore. My feet were all over the place. So I bought a set of clipless pedals and now there is balance in my world, once again.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

phride said:


> If you're getting bounced about on flats, try lowering your seat so you have more pressure on the pedals at the bottom of the stroke. It's slightly lower than you need to effectively pedal through the bottom of the stroke, so it's probably slightly less efficient, but it's the most stable I've felt on the bike, including being clipped-in.


I have found dropping the seat makes a huge difference. I have a habit of riding with my heals up with clipless, dropping the seat allows me to comfortably ride heals down and socks my feet into the pedals


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

there's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> Last I purchased a 140mm travel bike for riding the gnar when it presents itself. I am an XC guy by region and generally 100mm travel covers it.
> 
> I've been a clipless pedal guy for several years and everyone suggested that I go back to flats for this new bike. I tried and I just can't ride those pedals anymore. My feet were all over the place. So I bought a set of clipless pedals and now there is balance in my world, once again.


Umm that is a lie. I told you to stick with clipless and you ignored my advice. Now look where you're at back on clipless and out some coin for what you shelled out for those flat thingamajigs.


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## DenVen1 (Dec 15, 2014)

I ride on Power Grips, the best of both worlds.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

DenVen1 said:


> I ride on Power Grips, the best of both worlds.


or worst haha


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## dft (Apr 9, 2004)

as evdog said, ride what works for you. 
it is funny reading these threads where everyone is trying to sell what they rides. 
but who i am to talk, i've been riding powergrips for 19 years now and never plan to leave them!


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## dft (Apr 9, 2004)

DenVen1 said:


> I ride on Power Grips, the best of both worlds.


i've been riding them for 19 years now, love em!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I don't even use pedals.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

dft said:


> i've been riding them for 19 years now, love em!


Power Grips, filling emergency rooms for almost 25 years....


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Umm that is a lie. I told you to stick with clipless and you ignored my advice. Now look where you're at back on clipless and out some coin for what you shelled out for those flat thingamajigs.


No, I am not. A fellow eMpTyBeeR member climbed all over them when I offered to sell them to him. Sold them FAST.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> No, I am not. A fellow eMpTyBeeR member climbed all over them when I offered to sell them to him. Sold them FAST.


And...


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And...


So apologize, please.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> So I apologize for not taking your advice. I feel worthless and weak.


Drop and give me twenty.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Drop and give me twenty.


Apology unaccepted.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Really excited to try these and see if they make me a convert! Even if they don't my feet are going to welcome the break...


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Catalyst, barefoot flat pedals, no thank you😓


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

richde said:


> It's a matter of practice, practice builds confidence.


Good idea. I'm heading out to practice falling off skinnies and bailing on drops with clipless pedals. 

(Full disclosure: I wear clipless for most trail riding and don't like falling with either pedal type.)


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Travis Bickle said:


> Catalyst, barefoot flat pedals, no thank you


I'll be wearing shoes.


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## John (Apr 25, 2004)

I practice falling unintentionally using both types of pedals. Either way, it sucks.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Hawg said:


> Last I purchased a 140mm travel bike for riding the gnar when it presents itself. I am an XC guy by region and generally 100mm travel covers it.
> 
> I've been a clipless pedal guy for several years and everyone suggested that I go back to flats for this new bike. I tried and I just can't ride those pedals anymore. My feet were all over the place. So I bought a set of clipless pedals and now there is balance in my world, once again.


Funny because I remember riding with this guy several years ago when I was a MTB Noob. We went on a ride up in the Mtns and his conditioning left me for dead. He kept telling me (on flats) how much he liked being clipped in, and he thought it would make a significant difference in my ability to climb, along with more time on the bike. Finally I switched to clip-less, and have never looked back. I could not imagine riding on flats again with as much as I enjoy climbing now as well as competing. Wish that guy knew how much I enjoy clip-less because I have not seen him for some time. I'd like to thank him for the tip. Oh wait, that was you Hawg. Thanks!


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

trmn8er said:


> Funny because I remember riding with this guy several years ago when I was a MTB Noob. We went on a ride up in the Mtns and his conditioning left me for dead. He kept telling me (on flats) how much he liked being clipped in, and he thought it would make a significant difference in my ability to climb, along with more time on the bike. Finally I switched to clip-less, and have never looked back. I could not imagine riding on flats again with as much as I enjoy climbing now as well as competing. Wish that guy knew how much I enjoy clip-less because I have not seen him for some time. I'd like to thank him for the tip. Oh wait, that was you Hawg. Thanks!


What kind of flat pedals and shoes were you using?


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

let us know how the Catalyst works out for you. I just can't get over the weight and thickness of those pedals.


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

Where is that? Black Mountain Miner Loop?



SDMTB'er said:


> Why, yes. Yes I do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

jacksonlui said:


> let us know how the Catalyst works out for you. I just can't get over the weight and thickness of those pedals.


I will don't worry! 

They're actually pretty thin, not noticeably any thicker than my Raceface Atlas. I'll measure next time I'm in the garage.

I've just fitted them to my Cannondale Habit that weighed 25.45lbs with CB Candys and 25.95lbs with the Catalysts so I can live with that too.


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## ggilings (Nov 26, 2011)

jacksonlui said:


> let us know how the Catalyst works out for you. I just can't get over the weight and thickness of those pedals.


I've been stocking this thread for a bit and was able to get a ride in on the Catalyst Pedal. I ride both clipless and flats, but think I will go to flats full time. Anyway, I still need to get used to the new foot position, but I like them. Lots of power climbing and tons of traction..

I know this is "Un-cool", but I just wrote a review on my blog if anyone is interested.
ONE TRAIL AT A TIME...


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Cool write up ggilings! Looking forward to my first proper ride on them this weekend!


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## phride (Sep 14, 2015)

ggilings said:


> I've been stocking this thread for a bit and was able to get a ride in on the Catalyst Pedal. I ride both clipless and flats, but think I will go to flats full time. Anyway, I still need to get used to the new foot position, but I like them. Lots of power climbing and tons of traction..
> 
> I know this is "Un-cool", but I just wrote a review on my blog if anyone is interested.
> ONE TRAIL AT A TIME...


What flats have you ridden previously? Obviously, these are much larger platforms than any others, but it would be good to know to what you are comparing them.


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

jacksonlui said:


> Where is that? Black Mountain Miner Loop?


Yes


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

SDMTB'er said:


> What kind of flat pedals and shoes were you using?


I was on Well-go MG-1 flats with 5-10 shoes. I'm not a flats hater at all. I just really prefer being clipped in. Could be in part due to my style of riding. I ride and race XC mostly but do occasional big Mtn stuff too even on my XC bike, always clipped in.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Stripes said:


> Me either. They look really thick and heavy, and I don't have any problems with my atlas pedals.


I had/have no problems with my Atlas either but the Catalysts measure 11-16mm thick compared to 12-14.5mm of the Atlas so there's nothing in it in that respect, they're also a little narrower at 95mm compared to 114mm to reduce rock strikes but the weight comes in the extra length which is the whole point of them really.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Those things are HUGE. 

I've seen similar ones on motorcycles.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

Just J, you gotta write these up after a bit. Definitely wear shoes.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Travis Bickle said:


> Just J, you gotta write these up after a bit. Definitely wear shoes.


And hockey shin pads.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

I will, I'll put some miles on them and give them a good chance.

Funnily enough the guy who had these pedals made advises wearing shin pads at first!


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

I've been using crampon ultimates. thinner and lighter but somehow I'm looking for more grip with my 2FO shoes. I'd get 5.10 shoes but don't like that they absorb water and not as breathable and the sole is a little too flexy. I might try the Boomslang next. The Catalyst does have a money back guarantee. Would be good to get some empirical data via a power meter or strava.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

These threads always focus on the getting in/out aspect of the clipless/flat pedal debate. Both are proven systems that function properly. That really is a tiny aspect to the pro's & con's, but people discuss that specifically to no end.

The assumption from clipless riders is that flat pedal riders use them because they are scared of the whole connection thing and becoming unconnected. I can ride both systems without any additional thinking. I can ride both systems fast. I can race on both systems, doesnt matter.

What does matter is that I ride my bike faster when on flat pedals. I have about 4 years of experience and hundreds of rides on each. I have been able to boil it down to one factor for me.

When I am on flat pedals, I can weight and unweight my bike better than when on clipless pedals. I dont know why, I just seem to ride heavier on my feet through technical terrain when I am on clipless pedals. 

I dont even know if most people are in tune with what weighting and unweighting your bike actually is and how that affects your ride (skillset), so I dont blame diehards of either system.


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## ggilings (Nov 26, 2011)

phride said:


> What flats have you ridden previously? Obviously, these are much larger platforms than any others, but it would be good to know to what you are comparing them.


The last flat pedal I rode for a few years on and off between clipless was the HT EVO AE01. I've ridden a few others, but those were my fav. They were super thin and reliable.

The catalyst pedal isn't as thick as it looks.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

First proper ride on the Catalysts today and although I'm going to wait until I get some more miles on them I can say that I never missed my Crank Brothers once!


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## JCWages (Jan 26, 2015)

RS VR6 said:


> Watch out. The flat pedal posse will roll in and tell you that you're a cheating...no skilled...full of bad habits rider if you use clipless. :lol:


He is......


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

The three pedals I'm interested in for different reasons. I can't get over the weight and thickness of the Catalyst but I like the idea of having a longer pedal.
The TMAC looks nice, a bit expensive. Going with a Catalyst will add an extra 0.36lbs and 10mm thickness to your pedal. It'll be worth it IF the science behinds it yields gains in measurable performance. What if you use a concave pedal like the TMAC and just pedal with the axle in the center. Wouldn't the concavity of the pedal automatically support the arch of your foot? Wouldn't this give the benefits that the Catalyst is claiming?

Here are some specs on paper to consider:


*Pedals
**Weight (g)**Length (mm)**width (mm)**Shape**Thickness (mm)*





Crampon Ultimate
342105105convex6TMAC409110105concave14Catalyst50514395flat16


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## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

jesus


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

What "science" is behind the Catalyst? James Wilson's version of "science"? 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## jacksonlui (Aug 15, 2015)

I've tried doing a 12mile loop just having my current pedals in the middle of my foot. I definitely feel it more in my hips. I feel like I can't spin as fast but I do seem to mash up the hills with a little more power. On jumps and downhills I usually have my foot in the middle. However having said that, I don't think I was faster with this position nor was I slower. Probably better feedback from someone who has been using them a while is best. I don't see a whole lot of innovation on pedals and so it's good to have it on my radar.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

Clipped in for xc... Flats for park... For DH racing it depends on the course


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

LaXCarp said:


> These threads always focus on the getting in/out aspect of the clipless/flat pedal debate. Both are proven systems that function properly. That really is a tiny aspect to the pro's & con's, but people discuss that specifically to no end.
> 
> The assumption from clipless riders is that flat pedal riders use them because they are scared of the whole connection thing and becoming unconnected. I can ride both systems without any additional thinking. I can ride both systems fast. I can race on both systems, doesnt matter.
> 
> ...


Good point... good post !


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

I go back every spring.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

SeaBass_ said:


> I go back every spring.


Same here. I switch to flats during the winter, mostly because it's easier to keep my feet warm that way instead of buying expensive SPD winter shoes. I also run flats on the trainer. Once spring hits though, I switch my trail bike back to clipless pedals and forget about the trainer. I commute to work on flats year-round.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Same here. I switch to flats during the winter, mostly because it's easier to keep my feet warm that way instead of buying expensive SPD winter shoes. I also run flats on the trainer. Once spring hits though, I switch my trail bike back to clipless pedals and forget about the trainer. I commute to work on flats year-round.


I'm pretty sure Sea Bass meant he rides clipless year round. Although not much riding in the winter.

A sarcastic post it was but clever as usual.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I've already got some flats... but have bought some meatier ones.

I've been on clipless for several months now... but, can honestly say it's never truly taken.

Think I'll keep em for XC-ish events I do every now and then. 

Everything else, I'm trialing just flats (once they arrive).

(Sounds like I've forgotten how to ride flats... which I likely have)

-----------------------------------------------------------
#1 resolution... Ride it like I stole it!!


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I was 100% happy with 5.10 / quality flat pedal combo until I started racing rigid singlespeeds. Being clipped in allows me to pedal more through rougher sections and it makes it much easier and less energy consuming to stay on during rough downhills. Still keep flat pedals on my full suspension bike though.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

coke said:


> I was 100% happy with 5.10 / quality flat pedal combo until I started racing rigid singlespeeds. Being clipped in allows me to pedal more through rougher sections and it makes it much easier and less energy consuming to stay on during rough downhills. Still keep flat pedals on my full suspension bike though.


What the heck is the difference between the two pedal choices and a rigid SS and a full squish.

My answer: Nothing

Pick a pedal and go for it.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Biggest issue for me was in places that were somewhat rough and also fast enough to need a high cadence. Difficult to keep a lot of pressure on the pedals while spinning fast through bumps or roots with no shocks. Not as much of an issue on geared bikes or bikes with shocks.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

coke said:


> Biggest issue for me was in places that were somewhat rough and also fast enough to need a high cadence. Difficult to keep a lot of pressure on the pedals while spinning fast through bumps or roots with no shocks. Not as much of an issue on geared bikes or bikes with shocks.


Hmmmm..fair enough.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> What "science" is behind the Catalyst? James Wilson's version of "science"?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Well there's a lot of science quoted in James' Flat Pedal Manifesto and it's not his work, he just applies it into his findings.

http://www.bikejames.com/strength/t...-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/

I'm not a pro flat pedal guy, I do still intend to go back to clipless for the occasional fast ride or race once I've done my time again on flat pedals but I have definitely seen a lot of sense in his work.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

He cites some studies about efficiency at low intensity, while ignoring the body of evidence and research from many other scholars, particularly the work done at the higher end (LT, VO2, 10s max, etc).

He also discounts the experience of thousands of people that put food on the table by riding bikes, and their equipment choices. He is saying that they are wrong, and he is right. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't think he is saying they're wrong at all. I took from it what I needed to.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Just J said:


> I don't think he is saying they're wrong at all. I took from it what I needed to.


+1

He's just saying they're sheep (I'll go baaa too).

Look at iPhones

-----------------------------------------------------------
#1 resolution... Ride it like I stole it!!


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm pretty sure Sea Bass meant he rides clipless year round. Although not much riding in the winter.
> 
> A sarcastic post it was but clever as usual.


Maybe. The title of the thread is "I've gone back to clipless. Anyone else switch back?" In this context, SeaBass's statement "I go back every spring" implies a switch at some point.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

s0ckeyeus said:


> Maybe. The title of the thread is "I've gone back to clipless. Anyone else switch back?" In this context, SeaBass's statement "I go back every spring" implies a switch at some point.


Only Sea Bass can answer this.

This thread....


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