# How 'bout a Linkage Fork?



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

I like the idea of one of these but have no experience either first hand or otherwise with these two offerings. Damn they would look sweet up front, though. I always wanted one of those Amps back in the day but, of course had no ching. These two forks seem to have some european advocates. Anyone care to shed some light on either of these forks. From what I can see they both weigh in around 1200-1300g.


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## tmaybee (Jan 13, 2004)

I have one. It's a Noleen Carbon Crosslink. I don't have an up to date pic. My fork now has all Ti bolts and a Risse air shock. It ends up being quite light and it is VERY stiff. It is not very plush though. It works very well on more square-edged hits.

https://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/tmaybee/my_856_Front.JPG

Cheers,
Trevor


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

The Look Fournales fork is NOT a noleen crosslink carbon, they look similar but they're quite different. There was a third fork with that style linkage, the Quasar, a british fork from the early 90s. 

The other fork looks like the Amp F1 thru F3 linkage style mated to an air shock instead of a coil spring/oil thru-shaft damper arrangement.


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

I'm still an Amp F-4 Rider.

Pros: Light weight. 
Tracks great.
Light.
Hey, I like the looks.

Cons: Harder to tune (weight wise and suspension wise). The new ones should have an advantage on it.
Hey, I LIKE the looks.
The axle path isn't the same as a telescopic fork.
The double crown style (Noleen/Pro-Flex/Look) can make the geometry feel a bit different since they require a certain head tube size - either you get lucky and get it perfect, or it'll take spacers to make it up. The 'single crown' version is the one I prefer currently.

If I could find another good linkage fork for the new bike, I'd jump. (Assuming I could afford the darn thing.) Right now there are very few true 80mm 3 pound forks. (And when they do exist they are around 7 bills.)

Good luck,

JmZ



Axis II said:


> I like the idea of one of these but have no experience either first hand or otherwise with these two offerings. Damn they would look sweet up front, though. I always wanted one of those Amps back in the day but, of course had no ching. These two forks seem to have some european advocates. Anyone care to shed some light on either of these forks. From what I can see they both weigh in around 1200-1300g.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

From what i have read on other forums they are really stiff so in the that regard quite good. Their weight is getting close to the light spinner and rock shox forks AFAIK. Another one is called the Kilo. www.starbike.com sells them. Their biggest problem is they are taller/longer then the standard sus fork so it would change the geometry of an existing frame or you would want to get a custom frame. Other than that crucial issue I think they are supposed to be really really good. Don't know for sure, but if I were getting a custom made frame I would seriously consider the kilo and perhaps one of those others. I would be surprised if anyone here uses them since they are kind of a weird Euro thing (not considering the AMP - my friend has one BTW)


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*beware!*



Slobberdoggy said:


> From what i have read on other forums they are really stiff so in the that regard quite good. Their weight is getting close to the light spinner and rock shox forks AFAIK. Another one is called the Kilo. www.starbike.com sells them. Their biggest problem is they are taller/longer then the standard sus fork so it would change the geometry of an existing frame or you would want to get a custom frame. Other than that crucial issue I think they are supposed to be really really good. Don't know for sure, but if I were getting a custom made frame I would seriously consider the kilo and perhaps one of those others. I would be surprised if anyone here uses them since they are kind of a weird Euro thing (not considering the AMP - my friend has one BTW)


correct - there's the Look/Fournales and the German-a Kilo. and for sure older AMP forks.

i have ridden the AMPs and with the Look. with the Look icouldn't find a setting i liked. it would either bob and blow through the travel or be too stiff and use only half of the travel. we weren't able to find the right mix.

now to the Kilo which in my eyes is a faulty construction:
the fork might have a perfect damper, it's stiff and all BUT the overall lenght is MUCH bigger than comparable forks. it measures 48cm which is the lenght of 120mm forks. on the other side it offers just 78mm of travel!!

so put tthat fok into a any crosscountry bike and you offset your geometry by 2 degrees (slower steering that is). it not only changes your steering angle but also raises your BB height, it also affects your seat angle as well as the center of gravity. any technically oriented guy understands that these numbers alone make that fork useless.

now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well. several manucfacturers tried for years but as we all know the telescopic fork is the one that's used by ALL manufacturers. the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel....

anyway - you realize i don't like the Kilo at all. however the carbon prototype shown at Eurobike had a super-low weight. it wasn't raceable yet...

anyway - the only bikes i see that could accept a German-A fork would be 100mm XC-fullys. but then you give up 22mm of travel...

hey - have we ever talked about the cost of these? we better dont!


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

nino said:


> now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well.


Lot of BMW motorbikes use linkage front suspension (more sofisticated than mtb ones...)


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

BMWs use something called Telelever. To use an analogy: if a telescopic fork is like a swingarm rear end and a linkage fork is like a Horst Link rear end, then Telelever is like a faux bar rear end!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*



STS said:


> Lot of BMW motorbikes use linkage front suspension (more sofisticated than mtb ones...)


if you want to call BMW motorcycles 
you still don't see a single linkage fork in sports application! BMW is testing a prototype GP1 motorcycle and guess what forks they use???


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## tmaybee (Jan 13, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> The Look Fournales fork is NOT a noleen crosslink carbon, they look similar but they're quite different. There was a third fork with that style linkage, the Quasar, a british fork from the early 90s.
> 
> The other fork looks like the Amp F1 thru F3 linkage style mated to an air shock instead of a coil spring/oil thru-shaft damper arrangement.


Sorry I was unclear. I meant I have a linkage fork.


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## uktrailmonster (Oct 10, 2004)

Whyte bikes used to make this contraption. Interesting but pointless.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

_the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel...._

This is correct. It also isn't necessarily a good thing in my book. Case in point: last weekend it starts to rain on my last lap. The trail is slick. I brake to scrub off some speed for a tight corner. Suddenly it's like I'm on ice as the dust over hardpack has turned to slime. The bike rockets forward in full front brake dive fashion with the SID. I kiss a smallish rock with the front tire at the apex of the turn and promptly go over the front end and on me head providing great entertainment to my riding partners.:madman: Thanks, guys.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*nino*

"now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well. several manucfacturers tried for years but as we all know the telescopic fork is the one that's used by ALL manufacturers. the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel...."

I finally agree with you on something


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## uktrailmonster (Oct 10, 2004)

Axis II said:


> _the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel...._
> 
> This is correct. It also isn't necessarily a good thing in my book. Case in point: last weekend it starts to rain on my last lap. The trail is slick. I brake to scrub off some speed for a tight corner. Suddenly it's like I'm on ice as the dust over hardpack has turned to slime. The bike rockets forward in full front brake dive fashion with the SID. I kiss a smallish rock with the front tire at the apex of the turn and promptly go over the front end and on me head providing great entertainment to my riding partners.:madman: Thanks, guys.


Any normal telescopic fork will dive under braking (due to the forward load transfer). Low speed compression damping or simply a higher spring rate are the only things that will reduce dive in this situation.

Linkage forks on the other hand can be designed with anti-dive geometry i.e the braking forces act through the linkages with a tendency to extend the fork (of course the fork still dives to some extent, but less than it would with no counteracting anti-dive force). Unfortunately "anti-dive" also leads to a loss of feel and ultimate grip under braking.

The problem you had with the SID was that you ran out of travel!! Looks like you had it set too soft for the job in hand.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

@nino 2 things. Like I and you mentioned these forks are very tall so like I said a custom frame would be the only answer.

2nd, I'm not sure if the argument that it is not used in motorcycles therefore it is not a good system is true. The alternative argument might be because mtb's are so much more sensitive/driven to reduce weight. MX can have, and need to have, big thick stanchion tubes with really well made internal guts (heavy stuff w/o worry - not weightweenies). At the same time mx and other 2 wheel racing demand really good suspension while mtb's are IMO not quite at that level of performance. With the drive for lighter weight forks on mtbs, a linkage fork might be more ideal than a stanchion tubed fork because the stanchions end up getting flexy thin or made with riskier designs - Alloy steerer and stanchion tubes. 

I'm not saying this is fact but just perhaps the "thought/idea" behind the appeal of a linkage fork. The linkage forks prolly need a lot of development in the face of the Spinner Ares and other forks out. It's a bit of a leap but cars have linkage systems in their suspension like these forks. I also wouldn't be surprised if fork manufacturers have a vested interest to stick with stanchion tubes.


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## JasonPruitt (Sep 14, 2004)

You could check on one of the old Lawwill Leader forks. I heard good things about it back in the day. I think Control Tech bought the rights to it, seeing them make a comeback maybe they will do a new pimpin carbon one or something.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

uktrailmonster said:


> Any normal telescopic fork will dive under braking (due to the forward load transfer). Low speed compression damping or simply a higher spring rate are the only things that will reduce dive in this situation.
> 
> Linkage forks on the other hand can be designed with anti-dive geometry i.e the braking forces act through the linkages with a tendency to extend the fork (of course the fork still dives to some extent, but less than it would with no counteracting anti-dive force). Unfortunately "anti-dive" also leads to a loss of feel and ultimate grip under braking.
> 
> The problem you had with the SID was that you ran out of travel!! Looks like you had it set too soft for the job in hand.


Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

uktrailmonster said:


> Whyte bikes used to make this contraption. Interesting but pointless.
> 
> View attachment 175699


Ahhhh!!!!! I don't think I've ever seen a bike that looks more frightening. It looks like it came straight outa Terminator I. Thanks, I know I'm gonna have a nightmare of that thing riding me down tonight.:eekster:


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## uktrailmonster (Oct 10, 2004)

Axis II said:


> Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.


Does your SID have motion control damping? I know the latest version does. You can use this to achieve pretty much what you're asking for. The Fox Terralogic F80X is another fork that would help you too.

Anti-dive linkage forks only lose their sensitivity whenever you apply the front brake. They are fully active at all other times. You may benefit from the anti-dive geometry, but I think the above conventional forks provide more powerful anti-dive characteristics anyway.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*here's what you need...*



Axis II said:


> Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.


you definitely should try the Spinner Aeris then! it does exactly what you describe above (and what i demand as well)...


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

Man all this talk about linkage forks is getting me so AMPED!!!! 

Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week.
In all seriousness there's a reason why they've faded in popularity...


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*keep*

your day job!:thumbsup:


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

nino said:


> you definitely should try the Spinner Aeris then! it does exactly what you describe above (and what i demand as well)...


I know. I'm seriously considering it. I can get it at cost through my "secret connections" but, I'm afeared of being able to tune it correctly after following Slob's thread about his trials and tribulations with it. I'm suspension-fork-challenged when it comes to tuning and I'm afraid that the "mouth-breathers" that they hire to do suspension fork work in my area's LBSs are going to be clueless when it comes to this fork. They can't even adjust a Crossmax hub correctly the first time. Jeez.:madman: Even so, maybe this is the best option. You like it well enough, huh? If it's not a great deal stiffer then the Sid then I'm definitely not interested. Anyone else care to chime in on their experience with the Aeris? Slob?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> Man all this talk about linkage forks is getting me so AMPED!!!!
> 
> Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week.
> In all seriousness there's a reason why they've faded in popularity...


Maybe. But, they are still a presence in Europe so someone's buying them and obstensibly for good reasons. I like the idea of a fork that bridges the gap between rigid and full-on squish. Maybe that's what the linkage fork offers, eh? Anyone got a Girvin Flexstem?


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Linkage types of front suspension have been done time and again on sport bikes, but I don't know any models exactly. I could ask around, I know some guys that are gurus when it comes to obscure odd and interesting motorcycles that never made it to production, or never stayed in production long. Ever see a motorcycle with a radial aircraft style engine in the front hub? (the engine spun at I think a 6:1 ratio, opposite the direction of front wheel rotation)

Anyway, I think linkage front suspensions have potential, and because they never gained popularity, only means they haven't been executed well or marketed well. It's hard to get people to accept something new when they are very accustomed to what they already have.

And kind of contrary to what has been said of telescopic forks under braking, let me say this. I worked with a guy for a short while, until his visa expired and had to go back to Holland who was an engineer for WP Suspension, said that under hard braking the bearings/bushings are under a very high side load wiht telescopic forks, they would get very insesitive and sticky to bump impacts. He also explained how using stantions and outter tubes of differnet materails, with different modulous of elasticity, they would deflect differnt amounts making them even more difficult to compress under hard braking. Interesting stuff I never thought of before...

BM


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

and some interesting reading:
http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible_bikes.html

Oh, and I meant to add that you don't *have* to have anti dive in a linkage fork. You can engineer in as much or as little dive as you want, with differnt linkage geometries. Another potential added bonus could be variable suspension rate, so much loved in the motorcycle world. Ask anyone (in the US, at least) that the only thing thats really wrong with a KTM is that they forgot the rear shock linkage!

Imagine this, you engieer a linkage fork that "settles" in to a given ride height under braking, giving enough dive for the steeper angle, turn into corner geometry, but still high enough or maybe with a rise in rate to still have some suspension left for bump absorbtion.

BM


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Axis II said:


> I know. I'm seriously considering it. I can get it at cost through my "secret connections" but, I'm afeared of being able to tune it correctly after following Slob's thread about his trials and tribulations with it. I'm suspension-fork-challenged when it comes to tuning and I'm afraid that the "mouth-breathers" that they hire to do suspension fork work in my area's LBSs are going to be clueless when it comes to this fork. They can't even adjust a Crossmax hub correctly the first time. Jeez.:madman: Even so, maybe this is the best option. You like it well enough, huh? If it's not a great deal stiffer then the Sid then I'm definitely not interested. Anyone else care to chime in on their experience with the Aeris? Slob?


it is much stiffer and tuning is real easy. just read that other thread again or ask me again if you need help doing modifications!
bye
nino


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## quasimoto73 (Aug 27, 2005)

> You could check on one of the old Lawwill Leader forks. I heard good things about it back in the day. I think Control Tech bought the rights to it, seeing them make a comeback maybe they will do a new pimpin carbon one or something.


I can attest to how good the old Lawwills are. I have been riding one for about 8 years now and love it. I cant compare it to any of the new forks today (started on a rigid then a 2" travel Judy XC and then the lawwill 2). As for a comeback that is a no go on the Lawwill Leader 4, I had emailed Mert a few weeks ago regarding the same question and he is dedicated to the motorcycle thing for now. but who knows he did make a Lawwill Leader 4 prototype. Maybe with enough interest from others he might be convinced to reinvest some attention to the mtb segment.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

More interesting reading:

"CHASSIS

SUSPENSION COMPONENTS

Doesn't it seem like there was that more innovation happening in front suspension in the 1980s then there is now? Back then designers were experimenting with different configurations in telescopic forks and newer versions of link designs. The link forks were tested by Honda via Roger DeCoster and an engineer from Brazil named Ribi. The Ribi forks consisted of aluminum extrusions designed for rigidity. A single shock was mounted via conventional shock linkage, to the triple clamp. The forks were rising rate and worked like a conventional fork in that they compressed when you apply the front brake. Older leading link forks work opposite meaning that the front end extended when the front brake was applied. That was great on down-hills but very scary in turns! The Ribi fork design never made it in mx but it was later adapted for roadracing and used with great success on the Britten, a bike made in New Zealand. The old telescopic forks seem to be best design, at least until someone else tries another wild idea! Telescopic cartridge forks have received a large share of R&D money from the manufacturers. The Japanese have tried everything from remote nitrogen accumulators with balance tubes, to replenishing and non-replenishing cartridges. Of course all sorts of materials have been tested, from fork springs to bearing parts. Cartridge forks have been colored with gold for wear resistance and black Teflon for heat resistance. There have been all sorts of innovations in the base valve, from round and oval ports to single and triple stage valve stacks. In Southern California the well known suspension gurus think that if they just change something from single stage to triple stage and color it gold that it qualifies as innovative. Actually the basic design of the cartridge fork and rear shock piston and valve stack hasn't changed much since a Dutch man named Cor Hulsman widdled one up in his workshop twenty-five years ago. 

There's been a lot of buzz lately about suspension designs. Some are truly new and others are just revisions of old concepts. In my opinion cartridge forks have peaked with the latest design by Paoli (Cobalt Blue Works). The new contractive suspension has it's merits but also many limitations. Innovations in rear suspension systems are ready for market and offer big advantages. The Swedes are leading the way in these important new developments. Ohlins has always been at the forefront of shock development and their new rotary damper. The prolific Norwegian inventor Eyvind Boyesen has his hands in suspension systems too! His Z-Link may not be the darling of the American dirt bike rags but it isn't dead! It offers some desperately needed advantages for dirt bikers. Let's look at some of these new wave suspension designs.

Contractive Suspension

In the 1980s a French automotive engineer designed a suspension system that he termed "contractive", meaning that the suspension components contract to the base-line spring sag settings (100mm rear shock, 75mm front forks). FMF has a licensing agreement with the inventor and will try to adapt this system to dirt bikes and offer a retrofit kit to consumers. The American mags raved about how well FMF's prototype bike with contractive suspension handled the turns and whoops sections of a mx track. However they didn't examine the affects of reducing the suspension travel to only eight inches for the rear and nine inches for the front. They also didn't discuss the loss of ground clearance or the ability to pre-jump. I think this type of suspension is better suited to shorter riders who need a bike lowered in order to be more comfortable on the bike, or riders with smooth riding styles that stay close to the ground. Eyviind Boyesen of Boyesen Engineering has a different approach. His prototype KX500 equipped with his Z-Link has fifteen inches of travel. 

Ohlins Rotary Damper and Composite Leaf Spring

Kenth Ohlins and Tom Malma are prolific suspension innovators. Their suspension components are used in every type of motorsports racing vehicle from snowmobiles to motorcycles and Indy cars. They've been awarded patents on suspension components, linkage systems, and spring devices. Many of these items have never been featured by any motorcycle magazines. Most of the patents are improvements on the standard rear shock design. They've patented everything from a myriad of bearing materials to computer controls that are either automatic (sensing temperature changes and adjusting the damping accordingly), to rider interactive. The term rider interactive implies controls that a rider can use "on the fly" to adjust the damping of the shock or forks for different sections of the racetrack. Ohlins early development was in motorcycle roadracing. They built controls to adjust the shock's compression damping to squat forces that act on a bike when it accelerates out of a turn. Pekka Vekonnen tested a shock for mx back in the early 1990s when he rode for Yamaha. The latest innovation by Ohlins is the rotary damper. A small cylindrical shock about five inches in diameter and eight inches long, mounted horizontally in the chassis of a motorcycle. The Japanese manufacturers already jumped on the bandwagon and patented their own versions of this new shock. In fact the new Suzuki V-twin sport bike is the first production bike to use this new system. Rumors indicate that the 1998 YZ250 will feature a rotary shock with a composite leaf spring that runs inside the swinging arm. The advantages of this type of suspension system are numerous. First and foremost it concentrates the center of mass low in the chassis and can direct forces into the rear of the engine rather than distributing forces up the frame's top tube and into the neck or head stay bracket. The composite leaf spring is an old idea that has been proven on a decade's worth of production micro cars popular in Japan. The composite leaf spring is lightweight, durable, and has a wide adjustment range. That means you won't have to buy an expensive spring for your new dirt bike, to suit your geared weight."

And I have one question. If brake dive is such a good thing, why has every major motorcycle manufacturer in at least one era or another employed some sort of anti dive device? The bike one guy I work with rides to work has a telescoping fork (some sortk of Kawasaki street bike) with a hydraulic anti-dive device. Another he's owned in the past had a floating caliper on the front disk brakes with a link to the stationary part of the fork to prevent dive, very similar to how a floating brake works on the rear of DH bikes.

BM


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Axis - sounds like you're battling a few different wars here.

LBS - big :nono: to change your mind on a purchase utilizing THEIR mechanical aptitude as part of your purchase criteria. Find a new LBS if you lack confidence in their ability. Before worrying about buying a new fork THIS should be your true first priority. Is this possible within reason in your situation?

Linkage - I ran around most of last year on my K2 Proflex 3000. That was using a Noleen CrossLink. It had it's pro's and con's. THEN I put a Cloud Nine on it (custom adaptor). The pro's and con's increased/decreased. I still plan on running that bike in the near future, but until then i'll keep on enjoying my NRS and R7 Super, thanks.:thumbsup: The combo remains to let me down in any way and it will remain as my mainstay ride.

For your entertainment .....

Crosslink Pro's; (subjective, so don't complain)
reasonably light
stiff, no contest
limited tuneability (yes, this CAN be a pro)
short travel (obviously dependant upon needs)
get's looks ..... okay, this one depends on the looks received   
can be purchased with either aluminum legs or carbon (not THAT much weight difference)
Noleen STILL service's their shocks and will even custom tune per your request
can be upgraded with a Risse shock - always hear great things about that
*when modified with a custom shock mount*
able to use a variety of rear shocks, greatly opening up tuning possibilities
possible to reduce weight from stock Noleen coil over shock

Con's;
no disc brake mount (although it IS possible to fabricate)
short travel
get's looks ..... again, dependant upon looks received
the stock Noleen coil overs are, obviously, heavy and leave some to be desired for tuning (can be a pro)
*when modified with a custom shock mount*
you can only run so many shocks out there due to space constraints

Like I said above, not my first pick anymore (mainly due to the lack of travel), but I will be building it (the bike) up again for toying around. YMMV and all that stuff. If I had the cash - the Look Fournales sure looks like an interesting piece.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> Axis - sounds like you're battling a few different wars here.
> 
> LBS - big :nono: to change your mind on a purchase utilizing THEIR mechanical aptitude as part of your purchase criteria. Find a new LBS if you lack confidence in their ability. Before worrying about buying a new fork THIS should be your true first priority. Is this possible within reason in your situation?
> 
> ...


I know (about the LBS thing.) It seems like just when I find a guy who does good work he gets fired for stealing sh*t and I'm back to square one. Actually, it's very rare that I go to a shop for work anyway. I'd prolly get the fork tuning down just fine with the Aeris. No worries about my using that particular wrench anymore. Do you have a pic and weight for the Noleen yer talkin about? That's a Look Fournales style if I'm correct?

More on the Founales:

Look Fournales XC Carbon Suspension Bike Fork New $950

This is a Brand New in Box, Look Fournales XC Carbon Bicycle suspension fork. Size Small (Fits head tubes less than 137mm only). This fork is the ultimate in performance technology that most of us can only dream about. The Carbon legs are supported by Looks own Kinetic suspension system, which can be adjusted to your own riding needs by the use of air. Kinetic technology offers greater stability and prevents the possible surge effect from hard braking, which means you can bomb down hills and hit the brakes hard without being thrown over the handlebars. MSRP: $950.00.

PLEASE NOTE: This Fork DOES NOT include the Disc Brake Clamp-on adaptor.

TECHNICAL DATA:

MODEL: Look Fournales XC
TYPE: Oil and Air fork with a progressive quadrilateral frame
WHEEL: 26" 
TRAVEL: 80mm 
BLADES: Carbon
STEERER: Aluminum 1-1/8th" (28.6mm)
STRUCTURAL PARTS: Aeronautical grade aluminum
ALU-CARBON CONNECTIONS: By Structural bonding
TREATMENTS: Colorless, black and hard anodic oxidation
BRAKES: Clamp-on V-Brake or Clamp-on Disc Brake 
WEIGHT: 1375 grams
SIZE: Small (Fits Stack Heights 137mm or smaller only)
MSRP: $950.00

ADVANTAGES of the LOOK FOURNALES XC FORK

By using the deformable quadrilateral frame principle, the steering function of the wheel is separated from the suspension fuction.

Exceptional rigidity through the carbon fork blades.

Very low sensitivity to hunting because of its patented kinetics.

Stability because of its low deviation in use.

Better aborption of frontal impacts through the travel of the wheel and compression of the fork.

Comfort and progression of the oil and air suspension.

Design is particularly suited to Disc Brakes.

Compatible with major brands of Disc brakes.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

It's all about the Germans










From the German colon A website:

https://www.german-a.de/99grad/cont...n.html?url=chronik_carbon.html&languageID=EN&


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Slobberdoggy said:


> It's all about the Germans
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG, that's what I'm talkin 'bout!:thumbsup: So what are we to expect weight-wise I wonder? 900g? Sweet!!!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Axis II said:


> OMG, that's what I'm talkin 'bout!:thumbsup: So what are we to expect weight-wise I wonder? 900g? Sweet!!!


see my picture earlier in this thread! the carbon-prototype weighed 980g and wasn't raceable.
the lowers were made by AX-Lightness and when you look what a simple saddle costs you can imagine what price you can expect for such a fork...and it still will be too long for any serious XC-bike


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

nino said:


> see my picture earlier in this thread! the carbon-prototype weighed 980g and wasn't raceable.
> the lowers were made by AX-Lightness and when you look what a simple saddle costs you can imagine what price you can expect for such a fork...and it still will be too long for any serious XC-bike


Oh yeah. Now I see. So, too long equals slack head angle unless you have a custom build frame or a 100mm corrected frame. That puts me out with the Voodoo Sc. Back to the Aeris, I guess. I hope manufacturers are following this thread. Geeks like me wanna believe! I want/need a light 'n stiff XC linkage fork that'll work on a 80mm geo corrected frame. Is that too much to ask? Come on, we put people on the moon and developed Viagra! How difficult can this be!


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## Motivated (Jan 13, 2004)

*Noleen MegaAir*

sounds like you should get a Noleen MegaAir - it rides a lot like that and it can handle pressures that will nearly lock out movement.



Axis II said:


> Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Axis II said:


> I know (about the LBS thing.) It seems like just when I find a guy who does good work he gets fired for stealing sh*t and I'm back to square one. Actually, it's very rare that I go to a shop for work anyway. I'd prolly get the fork tuning down just fine with the Aeris. No worries about my using that particular wrench anymore. Do you have a pic and weight for the Noleen yer talkin about? That's a Look Fournales style if I'm correct?


I can't really help you much right now, Axis. All my info is on my laptop which is currently busticated. :madman: If you wanna see pics I invite you to search using my username, keyword Noleen, serach all forums. Sorry, but i'm on the desktop so providing links right now is VERY time consuming and i've got a race to go to this weekend.

Basically, the Noleen is a "junior Fournales", yes. Pay attention to the junior part.

Pray all you want to manufacturers - we are a VERY small percentage of "wanna-be-lievers". I know, I know - you know this, just as we all do. At least take a small reward of satisfaction that we have what we do available to us. (shrug)

Fournales - earlier this year you could E-Bay one of these for anywhere between $350-500 U.S.$, shipped out of (?)Sweden(?). Take a look. Even E-Discount, unofficial "home" of the Mega Air, picked up a few of these and auctioned them. Might be worth a look if you feel it's REALLY what you want/need.

Mega Air - I can honestly say that if there was some form of appreciable compression damping adjustment, I would never have gotten rid of mine. Short of this one con, IMHO, it IS the perfect fork for XC ..... period.

Your SID - you say "if I could get the SID to handle 15 more pounds of air" - what, you had it maxed out and it STILL wasn't enough? Or maybe there's something else going on here?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

AndrewTO said:


> I can't really help you much right now, Axis. All my info is on my laptop which is currently busticated. :madman: If you wanna see pics I invite you to search using my username, keyword Noleen, serach all forums. Sorry, but i'm on the desktop so providing links right now is VERY time consuming and i've got a race to go to this weekend.
> 
> Basically, the Noleen is a "junior Fournales", yes. Pay attention to the junior part.
> 
> ...


Well, that was prolly hyperbole on my part. Maybe five more pounds would be nice. Mostly I'm dissatisfied with the flexy stancions. It makes for kinda hairly cornering in fast, tight technical situations, IMO. BTW, how much does the Noleen weigh?


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

From my experience, the MegaAir would be more aptly named if it was called the MegaLeak. I know a couple of people who've had them, and none of them held air well straight out of the box.


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Hardtails Are Better said:


> From my experience, the MegaAir would be more aptly named if it was called the MegaLeak. I know a couple of people who've had them, and none of them held air well straight out of the box.


Yup, and if you did a MegaSearch you'd find out why, where and how. You'd also find out how easy it is to fix. :thumbsup:

Axis - re-read the first paragraph you quoted from me - can't get you that info right now. Maybe the end of this week/weekend. Best I can do.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

AndrewTO said:


> Yup, and if you did a MegaSearch you'd find out why, where and how. You'd also find out how easy it is to fix. :thumbsup:


It is true that I havn't ever bothered to find out what the real problem is there.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Here are some related images - hopefully they will work - I'm not sure if they are pw protected.



















Link to the build.
https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showthread.php?t=195886&highlight=roadruner3001


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Slobberdoggy said:


> Here are some related images - hopefully they will work - I'm not sure if they are pw protected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it is all about the Germans.:thumbsup: In my next life I'll be able to read German. Did anyone catch the final weight on that build?


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Axis II said:


> Yes, it is all about the Germans.:thumbsup: In my next life I'll be able to read German. Did anyone catch the final weight on that build?


I tried my hardest, google translated only about half the wods, and the only wieght I got was his. 74kg, but he's eaten too much bacon somthing or other and is a couple weeks away from getting back down again......I think.

BM


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

That Fornales fork looks so nice......almost nice enough to eat the 100g over the Spnner Aeris. Arghhh!!! Decisions, decisions.:madman:


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## jakeplazma (Oct 15, 2004)

Does the Fornales have the same problem as the German-A... Being too long?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

jakeplazma said:


> Does the Fornales have the same problem as the German-A... Being too long?


My educated guess would be no, based upon Nino's riding remarks. He mentioned that the Kilo was too long but he didn't have that particular criticism of the Fornales.


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## jakeplazma (Oct 15, 2004)

Good point! Hmmm...


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

This post got me curious. What are the current linkage fork offerings that are out there?

Used to be Amp, Noleen, Hurrycat, and a few random other ones. Amp and Noleen are out, dunno about any others.

JmZ


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

JmZ said:


> This post got me curious. What are the current linkage fork offerings that are out there?
> 
> Used to be Amp, Noleen, Hurrycat, and a few random other ones. Amp and Noleen are out, dunno about any others.
> 
> JmZ


That's all, AFAIK. The Fournales seems to have really nice reviews and you can get it cheap on Ebay these days IF you fit a size S or L. Size small requires less then 137mm HT height with HS. Size L is 157 to 172mm. No mediums available.:madman:


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Axis II said:


> No mediums available.:madman:


Spacers?

I know, I know ..... i'm just trying to help you spend you're money, that's all. :thumbsup:

JmZ - there's a Canuck in Manitoba that has Amp's available, Canadian dealer. You can still buy CrossLink's on E-Bay via E-Discount. Hurrycat? Dunno, maybe Dee has some info????

There WAS one manufacturer that made a "family" of linkage forks that looked like an oversized, uber-industrial Crosslink/Fournales mating. The legs were CNC'd aluminum with a kinda honeycomb machining in them. IMHO, really neat stuff. They had a few models that ranged from 3 to 6 inches of travel (maybe more?). :eekster: Nope, I don't remember who and can't find any info. I tried a short while back, thinking it was Pace, but it's not/wasn't. Pricing matched Look's Fournales retail.


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Do ya know what the website is for the second fork pic up in the orig post?

I'm curious. I like the Marathon on the front of the bike now, but I've got a soft spot for linkage forks.

If ya have the Canadian's info available I'd love to get it. I'm searching for an Amp F-2 or F-3 with a 1" steerer. :0

JmZ


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

JmZ said:


> Do ya know what the website is for the second fork pic up in the orig post?
> 
> I'm curious. I like the Marathon on the front of the bike now, but I've got a soft spot for linkage forks.
> 
> ...


I think maybe I got that pic off the Starbike website? Can't remember exactly. It's what's referred to as the "Kilo" fork. Same one that Nino displays on the scale cept w/carbon AX legs. $$$$$$ Why doncha buy one, give it a once over and get back to us. Someone's gotta do it!


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

JmZ said:


> I'm curious. I like the Marathon on the front of the bike now, but I've got a soft spot for linkage forks.
> 
> If ya have the Canadian's info available I'd love to get it. I'm searching for an Amp F-2 or F-3 with a 1" steerer. :0
> 
> JmZ


I'm a sucker for wierd stuff, too.   Wierd is as wierd rides, or something like that. 

I have contacted Larry and let him know about you. With any luck you should hear from him "soonly". :thumbsup:


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## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

I had an AMP BLT-4, it's still probably my favorite fork ever - laterally stiffer than anything on the market at the time (though that's not saying much, I've had pasta stiffer than some of those old forks), lighter than the rock shox of the day that had half as much travel, and way more compliant to small bumps - lagrely a function of no sliding seals (and coil springs, which wheren't that common then.

adjusting it was a pain, you had to open the dampers and fiddle with the shims to adjust damping (which wasn't that hard to do really), and you had to change springs with a mini spring compressor to adjust with spring rate. You needed a spring compressor to even change preload. The other downside was the dampers where tiny, I could see heat dissapation being an issue as there wasn't much oil in them.

I'd have put it on my new bike except the bike it came off of had a much shorter head tube than the new frame.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

I have an XL Fournales.

really loved it.
It is for sell has i have now switched to 29"ers.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

bike tv tests a linkage fork but it looks heavy. It's not the Kilo.

http://www.bike-tv.at/cms/index.php?id=2,121,0,0,1,0

Larissa Adams looks nice as usual.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Slobberdoggy said:


> bike tv tests a linkage fork but it looks heavy. It's not the Kilo.
> 
> http://www.bike-tv.at/cms/index.php?id=2,121,0,0,1,0
> 
> Larissa Adams looks nice as usual.


So what's the verdict, Slob? Yea or Nea? Anyone care to translate? Looked very similar to a Fournales design from what I could tell, although heavier. The shock unit looks very Fournales-like. The one thing that they need to work out on these forks is the stack height so that one doesn't end up compromising on their ideal bar height. This has been the deal killer for me with the Fournales with my 120mm HT- I'd have to go with a medium which, would place me way too high. I couldn't tell on this fork whether or not this has been addressed. This seems like a fairly straightforward problem that could be tweaked in the designs. One possible fix could be offering a rise adjustable stem (like the Look Vario?) along with the fork so that people could dial in their needed height? Or offer more sizing options then the Fournales. I beleive this design is better then the Kilo due to the longer then ideal crown to axel height that is inherent to that design. It would be ok with a 100mm sus corrected frame but how many WW frames have this geometry these days?


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

JmZ said:


> This post got me curious. What are the current linkage fork offerings that are out there?
> 
> Used to be Amp, Noleen, Hurrycat, and a few random other ones. Amp and Noleen are out, dunno about any others.
> 
> JmZ


French Hurricat and Fournales do not produce any new forks. Parts are still available for SAV.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Yeah man, I didn't understand a thing they said  

Stack height is the BIG problem.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Slobberdoggy said:


> Yeah man, I didn't understand a thing they said
> 
> Stack height is the BIG problem.


*Nothing wrong with the stack height here..:ihih: rft::ciappa: :yesnod::lol: *


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## Tarbaby4Ever (May 2, 2006)

Does anyone know the A2C on the Look fork ?


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## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

Axis II said:


> So what's the verdict, Slob? Yea or Nea? Anyone care to translate? Looked very similar to a Fournales design from what I could tell, although heavier. The shock unit looks very Fournales-like. The one thing that they need to work out on these forks is the stack height so that one doesn't end up compromising on their ideal bar height. This has been the deal killer for me with the Fournales with my 120mm HT- I'd have to go with a medium which, would place me way too high. I couldn't tell on this fork whether or not this has been addressed. This seems like a fairly straightforward problem that could be tweaked in the designs. One possible fix could be offering a rise adjustable stem (like the Look Vario?) along with the fork so that people could dial in their needed height? Or offer more sizing options then the Fournales. I beleive this design is better then the Kilo due to the longer then ideal crown to axel height that is inherent to that design. It would be ok with a 100mm sus corrected frame but how many WW frames have this geometry these days?


The linkage-type fork tested by Austrian Bike-TV is the PARAFORK "Spezial" still made by Christian GUSIC in Bavaria near Munich (Germany). For further informations see his website.


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## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

Tarbaby4Ever said:


> Does anyone know the A2C on the Look fork ?


A2C height of the LOOK FOURNALES "XC" fork is 452 mm, fork rake is 41 mm. The fork manual can be downloaded at the British retrobike.co.uk website.

R&D was made by the French mechanical engineer Jean-Pierre FOURNALÈS resp. his company FOURNALES Suspension S.A. for LOOK. According to a thread in the Austrian bike forum nyx.at and to WeightWeenies.com it seems that there have been several evolutionary steps of that fork.

In a test (see 1,2) that was published by the German bike magazine "Bike Sport News" (BSN) some time ago (year 2002) the fork got a very favorable assessment, and it was said that LOOK had plans even for a FR as well as a DH variant.Obviously, they have shelved all that promising stuff.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

USE made one years ago. It was pretty cool, I wish they still made it.


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## Grem76 (Jan 15, 2018)

Anyone have info on the ICE Linkage fork? 
Haven't got it in hand yet, it's being shipped. Supposedly it was made by a "small firm" in Neuhausen Germany in the mid 90s but so far unable to find the name of said small firm or any other information on the fork... But it's going on one of my Killer Vs. 
Not sure if one of my built 2 featured in Killer V thread or if I"m going to buy one of the several available around here right now and build another.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Grem76 said:


> Anyone have info on the ICE Linkage fork?
> Haven't got it in hand yet, it's being shipped. Supposedly it was made by a "small firm" in Neuhausen Germany in the mid 90s but so far unable to find the name of said small firm or any other information on the fork... But it's going on one of my Killer Vs.
> Not sure if one of my built 2 featured in Killer V thread or if I"m going to buy one of the several available around here right now and build another.


Blast from the past! Hard to believe this dinosaur thread has been resurrected from the dead. Twelve years ago! I tried hard to like Fournales but, in the end the terrible rebound performance killed it for me. The last I heard my old Fournales shock was hanging on the wall at Shockspital here in Minneapolis- A curiosity. When your shock shows up it would be interesting to see what you have and your thoughts on performance.


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## Grem76 (Jan 15, 2018)

It should be here in a few days. It comes with 3 sets of different presure shocks which are supposed to be all good still for tuning.
I stumbled upon it on eBay while looking for a different Marzocchi for my bright green Killer V. 
I tried to find info on the web & the only thing I could find was the pic & listing for the one I bought. It looks pretty cool, not sure what I'll do with it yet, LOL, but figured since I couldn't find any info on it that I should probably grab it up to save it from being scrapped and lost to history. 
Probably going to build another Killer V with it. Bought a low miles Marzocchi MZ Race to replace my aging MX Comp on my bright one which has hydraulic discs & my other I switched to 700Cs and road gearing has the rigid pepperoni fork which I was contemplating swapping to a carbon road fork.
Anyway when it gets here I will check it out and post my initial thoughts.


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