# Some Lupine news



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some Lupine news

The boss of Lupine ("Wolf" in the forum) made some statements in the official forum:

- New lamps (improvement of the current models, as I understand it) with 20-30% more output compared to the current model, a new Betty torchlight ("BTL 2"), batteries with more capacity, option to mount all new lamps on a Go Pro mount.
? Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine

- There will be no Wilma R (with wireless remote), since it would cost too much and would push the price near a Betty R
? Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine

- Option for an upgrade for the current Betty R; for the upgrade the lamp must be sent to the factory. Said to be cheaper than to manufacture and sell DIY upgrade kits. New Betty R will light slightly less wide and with a stronger central spot.
? Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine

- Click mount system for the smartcore batteries, something of this sort: ? Thema anzeigen - Neue Akku-Rahmenhalterung

No release dates were mentioned ...

regards


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for the news. Keep the updates coming. New Betty TL would be nice.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Nice!
Thanks


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A mount for the Betty R remote (kind of wristband) will be enclosed with these lamps in future (literally: "soon").
Lupine will send these mounts for free to all existing Betty R users on request, a page will be installed for "orders" (literally: "in some weeks"). Of course I can't answer for the US and the like, maybe this will be organized over Gretna etc..
? Thema anzeigen - Neuer Halter für den Betty R Funk

regards


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## quiggs1974 (Nov 22, 2007)

I would love to see a narrower beam available on the Betty R, I personally find my old Betty (2600lm) on the handlebars overpowers the Betty R as a helmet light unless I run the bar mounted light at 38% or 50% max. It is then that the weight of the 3600lm Betty R has an impact upon the trails


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

quiggs1974 said:


> I would love to see a narrower beam available on the Betty R, I personally find my old Betty (2600lm) on the handlebars overpowers the Betty R as a helmet light unless I run the bar mounted light at 38% or 50% max. It is then that the weight of the 3600lm Betty R has an impact upon the trails


Why don't you use the New Bety on the bars and the old one on the helmet?
How are you aiming your helmet light? I'm asking because a spot will always "overpower" a wide lens because the concentrated light but I find it very distracting and also mess with my night vision by dilating my pupils even more and then when I look away I perceive less light in fornt of me.
Try to aim your helmet light to the horizon and use it only to see around the corners and far down the trail, not in front of you (try to "ride" with the handlebar light; it will give you a better depth perception ;-) )
Cheers


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## quiggs1974 (Nov 22, 2007)

BBW said:


> Why don't you use the New Bety on the bars and the old one on the helmet?
> How are you aiming your helmet light? I'm asking because a spot will always "overpower" a wide lens because the concentrated light but I find it very distracting and also mess with my night vision by dilating my pupils even more and then when I look away I perceive less light in fornt of me.
> Try to aim your helmet light to the horizon and use it only to see around the corners and far down the trail, not in front of you (try to "ride" with the handlebar light; it will give you a better depth perception ;-) )
> Cheers


The benefit of the Betty R is the remote to change light intensity without taking hands off the handlebars, having the lights the other way round defeats the purpose of having the remote.

I recently had 10+ hrs, in a solo 24hr race to experiment with balance between the light combos to gain the best balance between light intensity, light throw, spread and balance of light that provides ample light that enables shadows on the trail to exist.

Results found betty on bars running at 58% and Betty R on helmet toggling btw 100% for downhill and really fast single track, then idling at around 40% max for the rest of the time. The joy of lupine light sets is the ability to run them at 1/2 power and still have more than enough light for the majority of the time.

Back to my original preference a slightly narrower beam would enable a greater throw of light (30-40mts) while running the light at a lesser intensity.

Quiggs


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

So the Betty R is going to be 4000+ lumens now? 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

quiggs1974 said:


> The benefit of the Betty R is the remote to change light intensity without taking hands off the handlebars, having the lights the other way round defeats the purpose of having the remote.
> 
> I recently had 10+ hrs, in a solo 24hr race to experiment with balance between the light combos to gain the best balance between light intensity, light throw, spread and balance of light that provides ample light that enables shadows on the trail to exist.
> 
> ...


Hey whatever works for you:thumbsup:
Cheers


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

If there are anymore specifics of the new lights in English that someone could post I would be most appreciative for the info.


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Nothing new yet I take it? I would be nice if Lupine wasn't so cryptic in their updates about product development. And include the info in other languages since much of their business isn't just Germany. Guess I will just have to wait some more.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some news:
- As written before, improvement of the current models with more output, Piko is mentioned with 1200 lumen.
- As mentioned, new Betty torchlight (BTL2) with more output, central LED will be red (??, whatever ...)
- And, hear hear, a backlight coming this fall, "waterproof", working with ordinary batteries AND with accumulator, aluminium housing, price already known 77 Euros, separated from front lamp/accumulator, described as "very bright, but nothing excessive, nothing of the Dinotte backlight sort"

? Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine
? Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine

regards


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## juergenor (Mar 30, 2004)

What a shame - backlight street legal in Germany - that is probably why it is not bright. I love my Dinotte - would not use anything else.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

I wouldn't sign that. So far no Lupine product was street legal in Germany, I guess this backlight will not make the exception.


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## rgurney (Sep 30, 2009)

Personally would not use a wrist mounted remote for the Betty R. That would require removing one (or both!) hands from the handlebars to use. I find the bar mounted (Peppi V4 mount) remote very convenient, easy to use, and safe.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

rgurney said:


> Personally would not use a wrist mounted remote for the Betty R. That would require removing one (or both!) hands from the handlebars to use. I find the bar mounted (Peppi V4 mount) remote very convenient, easy to use, and safe.


 It seems to me that best use for the wrist mounted remote would be for caving,night skiing, or hiking. I think they have it right as is with the Peppi for biking.


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## rgurney (Sep 30, 2009)

Indebt - You are correct. Thanks for broadening my viewpoint


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

A bit of news I would liked to have seen from Lupine is the evolution of the Betty-R's remote. One that would have the output indicator led's incorporated into the remote itself so as to know for sure what output level one was using while the lamp head was been used on the helmet. That's if the technology is even available.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The announced Lupine backlight will run with a CR123A battery. Will run with ordinary batteries as well as with a rechargeable accumulator of same size. Backlight will be shipped with a rechargeable accumulator. 
Changing the battery said to be very easy, the backlight comes with several "reasonable" modes and with a capacity indicator, backlight is said to have an advanced efficiency unklike most ordinary backlights losing/wasting half the energy in resistors etc.. A mount to fix the backlight directly on the saddle is planned, but will come "later". Charging will work over USB.

• Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine
• Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine
• Thema anzeigen - Neues von Lupine


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A german guy of a torchlight forum obviously keeps a prototype of the new Betty torchlight BTL2 in his hands.
According to his postings, the new Betty torchlight will put out 4500 real lumen, weight less than 300 grams and the central red (??) led will be an XP-E, the others XM-L2. Running with 45W.

Other informantion is the new Wilma will have an output of 2800 lumen, and the Piko with 1200 lumen will run with XM-L2 leds.

Die Gemeinheit des Tages
News von Lupine: Betty TL2, BettyR upgrade, Piko mit 1200 Lumen uvm...


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

a 1200 lumen Piko would be a fantastic helmet light to use with the 2400 Wilma. I've been using my old 1500 lumen Wilma. Too, two 1200 Pikos - one of the bar, one on the helmet would also be a fantastic combo. 2400 lumens (i.e. 2 car headlight equivalent) in a very small and light package.

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> a 1200 lumen Piko would be a fantastic helmet light to use with the 2400 Wilma. I've been using my old 1500 lumen Wilma. Too, two 1200 Pikos - one of the bar, one on the helmet would also be a fantastic combo. 2400 lumens (i.e. 2 car headlight equivalent) in a very small and light package.
> 
> J.


I hope they have good heat management for sure. the 900 piko got damn hot in a matter of a minute or two when stopped. You HAVE to keep moving with these beasts.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

New Piko torchlight now listed in the Lupine shop.
Running with 13W (so same as in the current model) and 1200 lumen on max. lens angle 22 degrees, so the Piko bike/headlight will likely be the same.
Piko TL Max Lampenset - schwarz-d277b
http://www.lupine.de/files/manuals/Piko_TL_1200_Lumen.pdf

regards


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

What was the beam angle on the Piko at 750 and 900 lumens? Still 22 degrees? I have the 750 version and it strikes me that it is narrower than my Wilma 2400.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

According to the Lupine boss all the new gear will be available/deliverable in the Lupine shop starting from the "Outdoor" fair in Ludwigshafen (Germany) taking place 11.-14. Juli. Up to the new Betty R which needs some molding machine not yet delivered, so it will take "some weeks" more. BTL 2 announced "soon".
New Piko is announced to be available starting from "this week".
• Thema anzeigen - Neuigkeiten im Shop

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Just watched a Lupine promotional video and it looks like the new Betty R will have 4500 ansi lumens with three battery options. Betty R-7 with 6.6Ah/ Betty R-10 with 9.9Ah/ Betty R-14 with 13.2Ah. Looks like Lupine has put higher capacity cells in their smart core battery's this year. Also the new Wilma will have 2800 lumen output , and as already mentioned the Piko with 1200 lumens. Cheers!!!


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Is there a link that promotional video?

Thx


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm terrible with computers cue003 so don't know how to post links but it's on u-tube.com and titled, Lupine Betty-R Helmlamp-4500 lumen Betty R 7. Hope that helps.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Sweet. Found them. Thanks for the info.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

I copy my post from the Lupine forum. New Gear:

Lupine Wilma X Stirnlampen - 2800 Lumen - Wilma X7, Wilma X10, Wilma X14 - YouTube
Lupine Wilma Helmlampen - 2800 Lumen - Wilma 7, Wilma 10, Wilma 14 - YouTube
Lupine Piko Helmlampe - 1200 Lumen - Piko 4, Piko 7 - YouTube
Lupine Betty R Helmlampe - 4500 Lumen - Betty R7, Betty R10, Betty R14 - YouTube
Lupine Piko X - 1200 Lumen - Piko XDuo, Piko X4 - YouTube
Lupine Betty R X - 4500 Lumen Stirnlampe - Betty R X7, Betty R X10, Betty R X14 - YouTube
Lupine Piko X7 - 1200 Lumen Stirnlampe - YouTube

Piko 1200 manual
Betty Torchlight 2 manual


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## quiggs1974 (Nov 22, 2007)

Will the increased power output of the new LEDS decrease the battery runtimes or is it a matter being able to run more efficient LEDS harder to get brighter outputs?


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Quiggs1974 I read somewhere the new Betty torch was running 45 watt max output to get the 4500 lumens. I'm assuming the new Betty-R is as well putting it five watts more over last years 40 watt Betty-R. So yes even though the new leds are more efficient, max output is higher and should draw more from the battery's. Keep in mind Lupine has resolved the run times by having more capacity in this years battery's so run times should be as good.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

@quiggs1974

I also suppose the new betty R will run with 45W same as the Betty Torchlight 2, so there is a wattage increase indeed, thus more battery drain. 

On the other hand there is also an increase of the efficiency. The new Piko with 1200 lumen is quite remarkable. Still running with 13W, same as the old version with 900 lumen.
Improvement of 33% in lumen output in this case is done with better leds XM-L2, as well as with improvements in the electronic parts, and also with the leds fixed directly on a copper board.

Regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

It looks like lupine has improved their electronics across the board as their whole line up of products are pushing 100 ansi lumens per watt. They probably could have done that earlier but dealing with all the heat in such a line up of compact lamps is a difficult task.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

i would like a Piko R ... a Piko with 1200 - 1500 lumens.

or maybe a half-piko with 900 and about 40 grams lamphead weight.

i would also like the button on the piko to be on the side - otherwise when i press it it tends to change the angle of the light.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

androgen said:


> i would like a Piko R ... a Piko with 1200 - 1500 lumens.
> 
> or maybe a half-piko with 900 and about 40 grams lamphead weight.
> 
> i would also like the button on the piko to be on the side - otherwise when i press it it tends to change the angle of the light.


 A 1500 lumen Piko-R would be a killer helmet light. Unfortunately not only do I think it would require a larger lamp head to accommodate the heat and electronics for the remote, but probably would double the price. Still would be an amazing set up though.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

they're getting 600 lumen per LED in the Wilma but only 450 per LED in the piko. therefore a 1200 Lumen Piko is certainly possible. frankly i was hoping to see it by now since the 900 Lumen Piko is old now.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

androgen said:


> they're getting 600 lumen per LED in the Wilma but only 450 per LED in the piko. therefore a 1200 Lumen Piko is certainly possible. frankly i was hoping to see it by now since the 900 Lumen Piko is old now.


 Not only is a 1200 lumen Piko possible,,, Its a done deal. As well as a 2800 lumen Wilma, and 4500 lumen Betty_R. Just check CHnuschti's post on this page as he has links to all the new Lupine products. Cheers!!!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A german forum made an extensive test/review of the new Betty TL 2 torchlight/flashlight. German language however. Lots of pics:
Lupine Betty TL2 und TL2S - 4500 Lumen - Test // Messungen // Bilder

Mentionable is that the new torchlight obviously has a special front ring with an outer thread, where you can screw on filters, diffusors etc.. However it seems that for instance such diffusors are not offered by Lupine itself. I guess the size of this threaded ring must be of some standardized size/type, allowing to mount third party diffusors.
I guess the coming new Betty R will also have this system or offers that as an option. This is suggesting Lupine at least took the topic "lens etc." into consideration.

regards


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Test of the new torchlight Piko TL Minimax (german however):
Lupine Piko TL MiniMax 1200 Lumen - Test // Messungen // Bilder

Lupine has finally concretized his offer for upgrades; in most cases, the lamp/flashlight must be sent to the factory. Cannot say how this will be handled in outer Europe, has to be inquired:
Upgrade 2013
Forum thread about this theme (german): ? Thema anzeigen - Upgrade 2013 ; for question/clarifications, write an email to the address as stated in the first post of the thread.
Notes: Piko upgrade can obviously be applied to all previous models; Betty R upgrade applicable only on the previous Betty R model; Wilma upgrade is do-it-yourself, as far as I understand applicable on ALL Wilma with internal switch, so even on the older models with 17W

regards

EDIT: there will be an upgrade also for the Wilma CL (Wilmas with external switch), not in the shop yet.


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

No XM-L2 upgrade for older Bettys with integrated switch? I currently have a 2010/2011 Betty (XP-G) which I upgraded to 7 x XM-L with 26 degree lens in September 2011.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

CHnuschti said:


> Wilma upgrade is do-it-yourself, as far as I understand applicable on ALL Wilma with internal switch, so even on the older models with 17W
> 
> regards
> 
> EDIT: there will be an upgrade also for the Wilma CL (Wilmas with external switch), not in the shop yet.


The upgrade is now available for Wilma-CL as well.

I was about to sell my Wilma-CL and get a L&M TAZ with a much better beam pattern (no external switch there :-(), but this upgrade got me thinking. I'm currently running the previous upgrade which is about 1000 lumens and has 22 degree lens: the light output is fine, it's just a bit narrow as I use it handlebar mounted.

But this new upgrade has a 26 degree lens - I wonder if it's noticeably wider than before. Cost is 80 EUR - should be worth it if it's wide enough - don't care too much about the extra lumens...


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Lupine has put online a new beamshot comparison, where there is to note that also many older/previous models (Like Betty 26W, Tesla etc.) were included. Not complete yet, some more older models to come ...
Lupine Lighting Systems - Dimmlevels

As for the upgrade for the older Betty 26W etc. don't know, nothing was said so far, I would write an email as stated in the previous posting and ask.

regards


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

@ radirpok
A german guy made an extensive comparison, also with the Wilma 19W 22° and 26° :
? Thema anzeigen - Unser Leuchtvergleich 2011 ; scroll down, there are 2 comparisons on Wilma "level".
Does not look for a noticeable improvement with the wider beam IMO, however.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Yep, thanks for the link, I've known about these beamshots, but checking them again... sad ;-( 
However, photos may not always tell you the whole truth. If you check the Betty 26 beamshots, the light spill is quite noticeable, much better than the Wilma 26, even though the lens have the same specifications.
I had a Betty 22 (the 1850 lumen version), and even though the photos don't show much spill in real life it was almost perfect. I wish we had the same lens for the Wilma...


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

I've reconsidered the linked beamshots. I think the Wilma 19W 22 and 26 degree pics are somewhat misleading. 
They aim too much into direction of "infinity", so they do not reflect well the changes in the near field in front of the wheel.
I suggest you download the images into the same directory, and then switch through them instantly with the mousewheel. The freeware IrfanView offers this feature, once you opened one picture, other viewers also offer this feature. Then you will recognize there is indeed quite a difference between 22 and 26 degrees (more than you recognize if you compare the two pics side by side), as it is reflected better with the Betty 26W pics.
The new actual gear (so also the upgrades 2013) of Lupine has a kind of slightly improved lens (the commercial says "collimated lens technology", huh?), but I don't think there is much difference in the beam distribution compared to the 2011 gear.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

last year i had Lupine Piko 3 helmet light and now i have Light & Motion Seca 1700. the Seca is 10 times better - i'm really glad i sent Piko back to the store.

the Piko is $330 and my Seca was $319.

now, if i could afford 3600 Lumen Betty or 4500 Lumen Betty i would certainly take it over the 1700 Lumen Seca, but without a significant difference in Lumens i would prefer the Seca.

the optics used by Lupine are good for making a powerful light compact, but they cannot match the beam shaping ability of properly designed reflectors.

by using optics instead of reflectors Lupine is able to produce a 7 x XML2 4500 Lumen light that is not much bigger than a single XML light from companies like MagicShine which use reflectors and maybe put out 500 Lumens. so i'm not trashing optics based lights - just pointing out that their compactness doesn't come for free.

the Piko only took up about 1/5th the space on my helmet as compared to Seca, while delivering 50% the light output - you just have to decide what your priorities are.

Lupine is still the way to go if you either want maximum Lumens on your helmet, or if you want minimum size and weight on your helmet. However the Seca 1700 beam pattern is unmatched.

Now i wouldn't assume that Taz would be just as good - my guess is it wouldn't be. Because i tried both Seca 1400 and 1700 and between the two the pattern was very different. The 1700 pattern is 4X better. the 1400 has a tiny super bright hot spot in the center that ruined everything when pointed down, and was lost into infinity when pointed straight ahead. while the 1700 has a perfect hot spot that is equally useful when you point the light on the ground and when you aim it down the road.

from the beam shots i saw the Taz beam isn't as smooth as Seca's. but that will depend on how you use the light. maybe for you it won't matter.

i think the Lupine pattern could be great for certain types of use. i should qualify what i said before - the Lupine pattern isn't so much "bad" as it's not optimized for MY use, while the Seca's is. i'm sure there are scenarios in which Lupine's pattern is infinitely better than Seca's.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The Taz units have an excellent beam. 

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> The Taz units have an excellent beam.
> 
> J.


Taz beam may be better optimized for bar use. I want horizontally flatter beam on the bar, and a rounder beam on the helmet.

Seca is a helmet light. Taz is a bar light.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

I just made up my mind and sent the order for an upgrade kit. This being the cheapest and simplest solution - I decided to give Lupine one more chance. The other reason is that L&M lights are hard to come by on this side of the pond, and customer support - should anything go wrong - is difficult, while Lupine is first class (a round-trip is within a week in the EU, vs. at least a month + customs from the US).


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Let me share my first impressions of the 2013 upgrade for Wilma after a short ride yesterday.

There are some good and some bad news. The good news is that this lens has the best beam for a helmet light I've ever seen - it is bright, has a huge hotspot, and a uniform beam.

Also, this is the light to get if you ride a lot of fireroads or "schotters", and ride them fast, you can tell that it was designed with the Alps in mind.

The bad news is that for the handlebar, it is pretty much like the previous upgrade. One trick I found is to use the light on the highest setting even during climbs - this makes the light spill just bright enough so that combined with a light on the helmet you can see what's on the side. The lower modes somehow look noticeably dim and hard on the eyes. Except for singletrack, where you can get by with limited brightness.

All in all, if you use your Wilma on the helmet, definitely get this upgrade. If not - well, I'm not sure its worth it. Go for L&M instead


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Took a break for a while and now it is time to dig out the old lights again. I still have my Tesla (love the beam pattern for the helmet) and the original Betty (upgraded once) with the remote switch...a feature I love. I think I'll keep an eye on the new stuff but those two will get me through any trail ride and several hours. 

I see some of the older light guys have gone out of business. Most notable is as of today- Turbocat is done. Too bad, since they had some high-quality lights. Oddly, I still prefer the color of halogens. I should grab one just for nostalgic reasons.


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

What lumen numbers do the new upgrades put out? 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

I received my 4500 lumen Betty R yesterday and did one test ride last night. The full brightness is impressive, but seems to produce a _lot_ of heat. The lamphead automatically drops the brightness quite aggressively when it overheats. It happened quite frequently in +14C and easy pace. When I took my helmet off, the power had dropped two steps down from the max (4500->2900lm). Btw, all the modes use just the six outer leds. The Center-led can be only enabled in some kind of ultra low power mode. I think the reason for this is the high heat output. And then about the mount options... My old 2011 Betty was nice because it had a 31.8 rubber band. Thus it was very easy to switch it from helmet to handlebar. I had the helmet mount permanently on helmet for winter season. The new Betty requires hex key to switch mounts. And handlebar mounts (for lamphead and remote) are not included even though the lightset costs 850 euros! I think this is a bit cheap from Lupine...

So to sum it up, I like the 4500 lumen output, smartcore battery, but the heat and mounting issues are a slight let down. And the center-led seems a bit useless?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

mehukatti said:


> I received my 4500 lumen Betty R yesterday and did one test ride last night. The full brightness is impressive, but seems to produce a _lot_ of heat. The lamphead automatically drops the brightness quite aggressively when it overheats. It happened quite frequently in +14C and easy pace. When I took my helmet off, the power had dropped two steps down from the max (4500->2900lm). Btw, all the modes use just the six outer leds. The Center-led can be only enabled in some kind of ultra low power mode. I think the reason for this is the high heat output. And then about the mount options... My old 2011 Betty was nice because it had a 31.8 rubber band. Thus it was very easy to switch it from helmet to handlebar. I had the helmet mount permanently on helmet for winter season. The new Betty requires hex key to switch mounts. And handlebar mounts (for lamphead and remote) are not included even though the lightset costs 850 euros! I think this is a bit cheap from Lupine...
> 
> So to sum it up, I like the 4500 lumen output, smartcore battery, but the heat and mounting issues are a slight let down. And the center-led seems a bit useless?


it's funny i was thinking about how they could get even cooling to all the LEDs when the outer ones are so close to heatsink and the middle one is so far. it turns out - they can't.

on my Light & Motion Seca there are 6 LEDs and all of them are same distance from the heatsink - ZERO distance. it doesn't step down at all even at standstill in summer heat. less than half the price of Betty and engineering that is at least twice as good.

the Betty essentially uses the same cooling as all the $30 Chinese lights. i was wondering how were they going to get all that extra output without a better cooling system ? turns out - they can't.

i just keep losing more and more respect for Lupine. how could they go even lower ? maybe they should start publishing Chinese lumens.

i still have faith in German engineering though because of Busch & Muller lights.

thank you for your review !

Lupine needs to get a clue and just copy the L&M Seca design.

Light & Motion could dial in the same Lumens into the Seca as Lupine does into Betty, and it would have been a much better light - lighter and with better beam pattern. the reason L&M doesn't want to do this is because then they would need to double the battery size. even at current drive levels the battery is already the limiting factor in the Seca system so they just didn't see the point of driving the LEDs any harder ...

you see the whole stepping down thing is good for being able to publish big lumens, but unless you double the battery size you could end up in the dark. on the other hand just because you double the battery size ( and cost, and weight ) doesn't mean you actually get ANY extra light output because there may not be enough cooling.

in other words stepping down introduces an element of UNPREDICTABILITY into your battery life calculations. when i start a ride with Seca i KNOW how long my battery will last because i know the light will not be stepping up and down by itself.

Light & Motion designed a system with low cost, compact, lightweight battery and predictable battery run time. Lupine designed a system that is expensive, has a huge heavy battery and unpredictable run time, for which they compensated with all those battery diagnostic tools.

Basically lupine took a flawed design ( poor heat sinking ) and then tried to compensate for it by increasing complexity of electronics and algorithms which only created a bigger, heavier, more expensive system without making it better.

Light and Motion took a good design ( all LEDs mounted directly to heatsink ) and they didn't have to do anything else because that's all you really need. as a result the system is light and cheap and produces the same amount of usable light.

this is what you get when you buy on fictional numbers instead of analyzing the design.

back to the drawing board Lupine ...


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Seca is only 2000 lumens unless I'm missing something. Is there a Seca that is more powerful than this? I thought I heard there was a 3600 lumen on the way, but even that would be pretty much even up with the new Betty.

Lupine has no issues cooling 2000 lumens either (actually 2800 or 2400 lumens for that matter) in the Wilma. You can't compare the Betty at 4500 lumens to the Seka at 2000.

J.


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

I guess I'm a bit of a Lupine Fanboy. The lightsets are extremely well made and almost every aspect is properly thought out. I think it might just be a physical fact that a lamphead of this size is not able to cool down six leds at 45W without cold enough outside temperature or high airflow? The heat fins on rear of the lamphead seem to be bigger than in old Betty, so I think they did the best they could with the form factor? Atleast the good thing is that it will be good for warming up hands next winter in icy and snowy conditions. 

I think I will buy the handlebar mounts anyway. I have a Salsa Warbird for road/gravel riding and would like to have the lamphead on the handlebar. And I want to get the remote closer to the grip on my NomadC. The velcro strap thing isn't very good for that.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

mehukatti said:


> I guess I'm a bit of a Lupine Fanboy. The lightsets are extremely well made and almost every aspect is properly thought out. I think it might just be a physical fact that a lamphead of this size is not able to cool down six leds at 45W without cold enough outside temperature or high airflow? The heat fins on rear of the lamphead seem to be bigger than in old Betty, so I think they did the best they could with the form factor? Atleast the good thing is that it will be good for warming up hands next winter in icy and snowy conditions.
> 
> I think I will buy the handlebar mounts anyway. I have a Salsa Warbird for road/gravel riding and would like to have the lamphead on the handlebar. And I want to get the remote closer to the grip on my NomadC. The velcro strap thing isn't very good for that.


they figured that most people ride in the dark in winter, and most people only need maximum output when going fast, so to save weight they only gave the light enough cooling for those conditions, and then they electronically limited power for all other conditions.

this would be a perfectly valid solution if they were more upfront about it. does it say anywhere in their marketing material that the rated lumens are only accessible when going downhill in winter ? i don't think so.

if they rated the light at 3,000 Lumen Typical, 4500 Lumen Max then i would say AWESOME 3,000 Lumen light !

but they knew if they rated it at 3,000 Lumens people would say wait a minute - i can get two 1,500 Lumen lights for $200 each, why should i pay $1,000 for a 3,000 Lumen light ?

they needed the 4,500 lumen number to wow people into thinking DAAYUM ! ! ! Lupine Uber Alles ! who cares how much it costs ! this is L U P I N E ! ! !

but in doing so they have in effect become a Chinese light maker because they published dishonest specs.

if they want to be a leader they need to lead. Light & Motion led the way when they started publishing honest Lumen ratings. my L&M Seca is rated 1700 Lumens by L&M but measured 1800 by MTBR. that's honesty.

If Lupine wants to lead, considering their lights step down more than just about any other lights then they need to start publishing the Lumen ratings ALONG WITH THE CONDITIONS FOR TESTING.

let them publish 3 lumen ratings in fact:

worst case: ( 25C, 5 MPH ) - let's say 2,500 Lumens
typical: ( 15C, 10 MPH ) - let's say 3,500 Lumens
optimal: ( 10C, 15 MPH ) - 4,500 Lumens

then i would say WOW, Lupine is the best - nobody else publishes specs this detailed.

but as it is i can only say - well what is the actual difference between a $1,000 Lupine and a $30 Chinese light ? both have a bunch of XMLs, an round metal housing, and exaggerated Lumen ratings. one simply costs 30X more than the other.

otherwise why use heat sinks at all ? just measure the light output while pouring liquid nitrogen over the LED and publish that spec. why not ?

and besides, both Lupine and Light & Motion sell their light heads also for hiking and other non-biking uses. how is a Hiker supposed to keep 15 mph pace ? does Lupine de-rate the Betty when it is sold for non-bike use ? i don't think so.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

And you can get a light that puts out 4500 lumens - under any conditions - exactly where?

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

@androgen

As remote diagnose, I would say you are sanguinic? I think you just jump to and broadcast conclusions wihout the slightest evidence, led alone by your "instinct".
As John80 said, where do you find lumen outputs on this level in bikelights without a built in dim_down_due_to_heat regulation stepping in? I am ready to listen to reason ...
But in the meanwhile you've already come to the "fact" Lupine being on a "chinese level". *rubs eyes*, well then ...

That said, even Lupine does not make a secret of its dimming and "need" of motion, you can read it in every manual also online, was mentioned already in the very first Betty with 900 lumen, where in fact there was almost no situation in which she dimmed down. I've an old Betty 22W with 1900 lumen and never encountered that she dimmed down, or at least I did not realize. So according to your crude logic now I am entitled to shout "hurra, the best light ever, top engineering etc. etc. etc."?
And as for "honest" lumen, they are honest like the ones of L&M are, with a standard measurement according to ANSI or something of this sort, measuring within the first 15-30 seconds (or similar), in this matter you're just writing BS ...

And I am curious to see how your venerated L&M will handle heat&dimming in their *plastic* housing in the new announced 3600 lumen Seca ...

Same on you new Busch & Müller thread. You've never seen the new IQ2 lights, but just 2 pictures 50/70 lux, of which I personally have some doubts if they've used the same camera settings, seems to me to be too good to be true, nevertheless you already declare them as "top light", "best engineering" etc. etc. etc.. I mean please, this just shows us you're somewhat prone to instant enthusiasm ...

@mehukatti
Congrats. I agree the center LED is indeed useless, it's reduced to a gimmick, and just produced more discussions than use, they better would have just dropped it. As for the mount, the solution also does not convince me entirely. You're now indeed able to put the light nicely in front of the stem, but as for usability not really an improvement over the older standard mount with O-ring IMO.
And it's a point I've also criticized, and it's not new. On quite elevated price level sometimes they show a petty, pedantic avarice in details ruining the whole picture. Of course the just shold include the standard mount as goodie. I remember my Tesla, they were not able to include 2 O-rings for both standard and oversize bars for the mount, no, you had to write an email which O-Ring you needed, ridicolous ..., same like first they did not include a mount for the remote of the betty R.
As for "temperatures and dimming", the only published detail was for the previous Betty R 3600 lumen, stating it would not dim down for motion with 25 kilometers/hour and 20 degree C.: ? Thema anzeigen - Betty R


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

CHnuschti said:


> @androgen
> 
> As remote diagnose, I would say you are sanguinic? I think you just jump to and broadcast conclusions wihout the slightest evidence, led alone by your "instinct".
> As John80 said, where do you find lumen outputs on this level in bikelights without a built in dim_down_due_to_heat regulation stepping in? I am ready to listen to reason ...
> ...


funny you mention Seca 3600 because of course that is what i use. by that i mean i use two Seca 1700 on my helmet and as each measured 1800 on MTBR test i am in effect running a Seca 3600 - except it doesn't step down and the body doesn't even get warm to the touch. combined with superior beam pattern my light puts down about 50% more usable light than his Betty does.

even a single Seca 1700 on the MTBR tunnel beam shot already outperformed 3600 Lumen Betty, before Betty even stepped down - two Secas would easily take a stepped down "4500" Lumen Betty if MTBR had two of them to test.

i paid $638 DELIVERED for my two Seca 1700 - so about half as much as he paid for his Betty, which isn't even as good.

but whatever - it's your money - waste it any way you like.

the plastic body of the Seca is an awesome feature - it produces a lightweight unit that is comfortable to the touch ( not hot ) while the LEDs are mounted directly to heatsink within millimeters from the fins, whereas on Betty the heat must travel more than an inch through a labyrinth before it even gets to the fins.

i owned a Lupine before - i returned it for refund - i didn't really like anything about it. it claimed a lot of lumens for its size - that's about it. it was too hot to the touch, and the beam pattern was ugly. the cable plug was the worst i have ever seen and the charger was 10 times the size of the light itself. it did look cute however ( the light, not the charger ).

whatever as i said knock yourself out - buy the Betty LOL. i don't care.

as for what John said - he's on my ignore list so i have no idea who he is talking to.

Lupine is a sad company that survives only on having the highest lumens and the highest prices - which combined give it an aura of "eliteness" which causes hordes of Fanboys to buy them.

reality is that a single "4500" lumen light that steps down to 2900 has no advantage over two "1700" Lumen lights which deliver an honest 3600 lumens combined, and with a better beam pattern, for half the price.

now if he had TWO bettys on his helmet ... then i would acknowledge defeat 

heheh ...

look. Seca is a better design than Betty PERIOD. Seca is the best light ever designed, ever in human history. Betty is just another me-too bad Chinese light - there are hundreds like it - and there is nothing special about this Chinese light except that it's made in Germany - but it's still Chinese - because it uses the same design as 90% of the Chinese lights do. on the other hand NO OTHER LIGHT uses the design that Seca uses.

the only difference between Lupine and some kind of ChinaSuperLuxSevenStar light is that Lupine steps down, and the Chinese lights are already stepped down. that's about it. both claim 4,000 Lumens.

i'm sorry that you people think if its expensive it must be good even when it uses the same design as $30 chinese lights ...

in fact $30 chinese lights use BETTER design than Betty - because at least they use reflectors ...

look. $80G Nissan GTR beat $150G Porsche 911 Turbo, $150G 911 Turbo beat most $300,000 Supercars, and then both Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper beat Nissan GTR ... why ? because better engineering is better engineering - it doesn't matter where it is made or how much it costs or anything else.

Light and Motion is made in California - that's the same place where Apple, Google, Tesla, NASA, DARPA etc are from. Almost everything that was invented in the last 100 years has been invented in California - things like Transistors, Internet, GPS satellites etc. the last time Germany was great was before WW2 and then US flattened it with bombs, stole all of Hitler's scientists and moved them to ... to California, where they proceeded to invent some of those things that i mentioned.

So you don't think a company from California can out-design a German company ? think whatever you want ! I'm just telling you how it is.

look i give credit where credit is due - Busch & Muller have incredibly interesting designs - i think both the IQ2 and Bing Bang are super cool. i drive a German car myself, my last car was also German. even my bathroom exhaust fan is made in Germany. my Philips Saferide is designed in Germany. i LOVE German engineering. I love Germany so much i watch German television in German language over internet from New York City BUT !

BUT Lupine still sucks. sorry.

Lupine was my FIRST light - i fell for all the hype and i wanted a German product so i got it, but now i know better because now i understand the engineering and design issues involved in making lights.

as i said, i still love Germany, but also California. i have four lights made in California - Two Seca 1700s and Two MonkeyLectric M232s and they are all awesome.

MORE LUMENS DOES NOT EQUAL BETTER DESIGN - is that really that hard to understand ?


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

androgen said:


> Seca is the best light ever designed, ever in human history.


It's an impressive crescendo indeed ... But for my taste your posts often tend to an excess of declamatory character ...


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

chnuschti said:


> it's an impressive crescendo indeed ... But for my taste your posts often tend to an excess of declamatory character ...


lolz


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

And a 3600 lumen L&M light composed of two Seca 1700 (actually makes it a 3400 lumen set up) is supposed to be competitive with a 4500 lumen single light Betty?

Where else can you get a single light 4500 lumen light? Answer: You can't, except from Lupine. And because of that, they should get a premium but apparently they don't.

Sounds to me like the Lupine is a better deal over two Seca 2000's. You don't have to wear two lights on your head, you get 500 more lumens and it's the same price as 2X Seca 2000.

From the Regrets thread:


androgen said:


> if cost was no object i would have gotten two Seca 2000 Enduros, unfortunately that would have worked out to as much $ as a Lupine Betty.


 I thought we were arguing about the Betty being overpriced....

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

There will be NO upgrade kits for the older (pre R version) Betty models 26W, 24W etc.. since without higher wattage (like the new R's) there is almost no improvement.
? Thema anzeigen - Upgrade 2013


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

That stinks, though I figured that since the 1850 Betty needed a driver upgrade to match the 2600. I guess I will have to stick with my 2600 Betty for a while then. I don't like the new Betty R mounting system.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some "diffusors" / "colored filters" were announced to come for the Piko and the Piko TL (torchlight), kind of clip-on caps. Quite vague at this stage, no details were given.
Also new "stressable" plugs for the Betty R were announced.

• Thema anzeigen - wqs so läuft


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Test/Review of the new Betty R 4500 lumen in a german torchlight forum.
With some measurements, also including a simulation of motion over ventilators, with an approximately defined airflow velocity.
Some nice comparative pics included.
Lupine Betty R14 - 4500 Lumen mit Funk // Test / Messungen / Bilder //


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

That picture (on the site) is amazing. I thought my 1,850 Betty was impressive.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

How's it going Flyer? I am still running my old Betty with the external switch that I bought in 2006. I did one upgrade to it and it is at 1,750 lumens which is still a lot of light. Surprisingly I am still using the 6.8 battery pack that it came with in 2006 and it still holds a charge just fine. Never had an issue with it or with my upgraded 1,000 lumen Wilma light I bought in 2006 either. In comparison I have a cheap magicshine that started having issues within a year which didn't surprise me. For me Lupine makes the most reliable best quality lights that I have ever used. For all the night riding I do I have definitely gotten my moneys worth out of them. 

And androgen comparing Lupines to Chinese knockoffs is a really funny. Buy some Chinese lights and use them as much as I do and get back to me in 7 years and see if they are still going strong androgen. I use my Lupines for biking, hiking, whatever, rain or shine, in ice and snow and they never let me down.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey Maximus, it goes well...just been out of biking for a couple of years. I still have my original Betty (2008 maybe). I also upgraded it once and use the big water bottle battery pack. I sold the Wilma but kept the Tesla. I have used them for hiking and snowshoeing, as well as camping. The batteries are still 100% and I have had no problems. I am not buying the Chinese knockoffs...they are not my thing, and I don't want to be stuck in the middle of the mountains with a useless light at night. I'll keep these till I feel the need to upgrade to another Betty and maybe a Piko. For now though, they light up the night and work perfectly every time. I must say I am very tempted by the light weigh of the Piko for the helmet. However, I find the Tesla beam to be better than anything else out there. It has that L&M ACR type of beam (used the ARCs for two years) with the reflector it uses. The lighter peripheral light provides a great transition and I can see to the sides in those dark mountain forest twisty trails and tight/steep switchbacks, without turning my head much. I'll probably never sell it so I hope it never dies.


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## Bronsondude (Apr 23, 2013)

I have two 1800 Betty's I've used for two years now two to four days a week. Never a problem. You get what you pay for. I will be purchasing two forty five hundred lumen Betty's as soon as they are available. You want the best you buy Lupine. End of story.


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

Flyer said:


> Hey Maximus, it goes well...just been out of biking for a couple of years. I still have my original Betty (2008 maybe).


Both my Betty & Wilma are going strong on original batteries. They are both gen1 (2007?). I'm on the waitlist for the new 4500


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, seems we are in good company, I also still use my 22W Betty with the latest available upgrade, putting out some 1900 lumens. Using it alone on the bar on my mountainbike. And I still am almost entirely happy with it on my usual trainings started away from home. My routes are quite easy, most on cart road, kind of routes for retired people I guess.  
For that, definitely enough light, I don't really feel/see the need for some more powerful gear. And perfectly able to recognize in time all frogs sitting immobile on the tracks lately, even with light rain.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

I just checked my receipts from when I bought my Lupines and it was actually 2007 and not 2006 like I initially thought. Still impressive though I think. I found some old emails between myself and Jay (Geoman) which made me remember how helpful he was when I bought my Lupines from him. I still remember receiving my first Lupine which was the Wilma and how impressed I was with it. I have nothing but good things to say about Lupine.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

The Squeaky Wheel said:


> Both my Betty & Wilma are going strong on original batteries. They are both gen1 (2007?). I'm on the waitlist for the new 4500


Wow you are gonna go for one of those beasts. Can't wait to hear how you like it compared to your other Lupines.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

First glance of the colored filters and the diffusor for the Piko and Piko TL. The purpose of the colored filters is beyond me, but here they are:
• Thema anzeigen - Coming soon - filters and diffusors


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't get the colored thing either.

J.


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## mtbRevolution (Aug 10, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> I don't get the colored thing either.
> 
> J.


Hey John, long time. I think I know what it's about. We had similar request for red and green lens a year ago. It's for watercraft navigation lights displaying port or starboard and a sternlight at night. Looks like Lupine is expanding their market and going to sea. Refer to page 10 & 11 in this manual.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Has been a while.

I'm overly familiar with the fiberglass holes in the water into which one pours money - aka "boats". Most boat navigation lights are something like 10W bulbs so so. At least that's the case for anything that would be in the reach of any volume or consumers. So the lumen ratings of Piko, Wilma or Bettys are literally orders of magnitude of overkill. 

I've used my wilma and piko on the water, but the beam is too wide to be useful - spill is bad on a boat, you wind up lighting up the boat and destroying your night vision and you don't have enough reach to find a navigation marker. So I guess I'd question the sanity of addressing the marine market. It's not my choice for marine light especially for the port/starboard navigation lights (red, green).

J.


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## mtbRevolution (Aug 10, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Has been a while.
> 
> I'm overly familiar with the fiberglass holes in the water into which one pours money - aka "boats". Most boat navigation lights are something like 10W bulbs so so. At least that's the case for anything that would be in the reach of any volume or consumers. So the lumen ratings of Piko, Wilma or Bettys are literally orders of magnitude of overkill.
> 
> ...


You're probably right. However that boating manual does say depending on the length of the boat the red and green light must be visible up to 2 miles away. Really doubt a 10W bulb will do the job if that was the distance required by law. Maybe marine rules will or have changed and Lupine saw an opportunity. The red, green and clear lens may tighten up the beam pattern but then again, I'm speculating.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

No, they are pretty much the same. I was just looking at this for changing the nav lights on my sailboat over to LED based. All of the lighting for boats <65' is pretty much the 0.8A/10W light bulb (in incandescent). The LED bulbs are 0.1A or about 1W. Both of those satisfy the 2 mile requirement.

I'm wondering that since we're probably hitting the ceiling on lumens at 4500 lumens (and at that much, who cares about the beam shape), that they are starting to cast around for new attractive features. I have seen at least one photographer who uses a Betty to "paint" with light. Maybe adding the filter is in support of that. I would guess that if they get the filter ring to match the size of photographic filters, they have a ready market of add ons.

J.


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## canuck_tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Red Filter doesn't mess with your night vision. So you can use it to read maps or find stuff and turn it off again and still see at night. They would be used mostly with the flashlight.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

androgen said:


> i owned a Lupine before - i returned it for refund - i didn't really like anything about it.


In this world there are people that discuss things in a positive way and people that don't. If you don't like Lupine, what are you doing in this discussion? 
I have owned L&M too... wait until you crash your plastic light (which by the way looks like a 5 year old chinese boy glued it together LOL) and you have to send it for repair... I know I can order a front lens and keep my light and I know first hand how tough they are... please don't show how ignorant and silly you are....


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## pro_ohp (Feb 7, 2013)

Lupine Piko 4 vs 
Lupine Piko 900 lumens? Which to choose?


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

pro_ohp said:


> Lupine Piko 4 vs
> Lupine Piko 900 lumens? Which to choose?


Strange question I would say? The "4" in the "Piko 4" just refers to the battery capacity. Actual Piko model has 1200 lumen, with the same 13W as the previous model with 900 lumen had, but the price has not changed AFAIK.
So unless you can get a somehow enough savory rebated 900 lume Piko, I would clearly go for the latest version.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

It's probably better to refer to the Pikos by lumen rating. I *think* this is how they break out:

Piko 1: 500 lumens
Piko 2: 750 lumens
Piko 3: 900 lumens (last year)
Piko 4: 1200 lumens (this year).

Gretnabikes just finished converting over everything to 1200 lumens from the 900 lumen version. Just noticed on their website.

It's worth noting that a two light system using two Piko 4's would be awesome. One on the bar, one on the helmet. Would be pretty hard to find a comparable system at that weight or brightness to match.

J.


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## pro_ohp (Feb 7, 2013)

Lupine Wilma 6 26°/1500 Lumen it worth money?


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

All this Lupine talk is motivating me. Lol


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

pro_ohp said:


> Lupine Wilma 6 26°/1500 Lumen it worth money?


Great light. I have one (light only) that I may be interested in selling. I upgraded to the Wilma 2400.

What I like about the Wilma's is that they are a nice combination of throw and spill, they are small, and they are easy to work when on the bar.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some fun with lupine gear: comparison Lupine Bettys against the lights of a BMW car: Xenon vs. Lupine Betty - Der etwas andere Beamshot... - YouTube
Without doubt senseless, but hilarious. The equipment alone is worth an applause.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

WoW


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

CHnuschti said:


> Some fun with lupine gear: comparison Lupine Bettys against the lights of a BMW car: Xenon vs. Lupine Betty - Der etwas andere Beamshot... - YouTube
> Without doubt senseless, but hilarious. The equipment alone is worth an applause.


 Quite the video CHnuschti!! The HID's didn't look like they were doing much in comparison the the Betty-R's. I wonder how accurate that depiction is compared to real life. The betty-R's look close to what I see when i'm riding, however the BMW Hid's I've seen in real life looked brighter than that video's. Good Find!!! Cheers!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

It's probably pretty close if for no other reason than the Betty's are 4500 lumens and the car headlights are 1300 lumens. That's more than 3X the lumens.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Incandescent headlights are 1300 lumens, I think the BMW's headlights are HID's which are around 3000 lumens each. I'll have to go watch the video again.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Wow, I stand corrected. It is about 3000 lumens.

What is the brightest hid headlight allowed by law

But that's at the bulb.

Brightness is measured at various points in the beam and there is a profile that the mfg has to conform too. For example, you can't have a pencil thin beam at 3000 lumens. This probably translates into a lux measurement (i.e. lumens per square area) at spots in the beam.

That's interesting - I had been getting into discussions about bike lights blinding people and maintaining that at the current lights we are not even approaching (on average) the standard for car headlights at (what I thought) as 1300 lumens. Turns out this is far less of a problem than ever by about a factor of 2.5x.

j.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes those HID lumens are at the bulb i'm pretty sure but even 15% loss are still going to be north of 5K for the pair,, which sure looked a lot less bright than that in the video. I wonder if it was just an issue of the camera not making the adjustment between the two sets of lights. Anyway I can vouch that the two Betty R's are that bright to my eyes in the real world.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

It's probably a lot more than a 15% loss, actually.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

How much loss do you think? If a lot more than my 15% guess, that may help explain why it looked so dim on the video. Cheers!!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Extensive review of the new Piko 1200 lumen in a german torchlight forum: Lupine Piko X Duo und X4 mit 1200 Lumen // Test / Messungen / Bilder //
With measurements. Also a simulation of motion over ventilators, simulating an approx. 20 or 8 kilometers per hour motion. May give some hints about the behaviour of its dimming.

Some nice comparative pics, notably the comparison of Piko & Piko TL (flashlight) with or without the new diffusor offered. The "white" diffusor seems to be meant for hikers, joggers etc., or also just as a light to be used "immobile" in a camping or the like. Loss through the diffusor is measured to be just some 10% of the lumen. My guess is there is no glare using the diffusor.

There was also a confirmation that all the new Betty R 4500 lumen come with the new plugs.


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## Bronsondude (Apr 23, 2013)

Those 4500 Betty's look ridiculous! Can't wait to get mine.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Think Im going to pick up a piko 7. Whats the best place to order from in the USA? Do you just order off Lupine's site and get it shipped overseas? I cant find any of the newer models from anyone in the USA...


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

LED Bike Lights | Lupine Lighting | Gretna Bikes, Lancaster PA

J.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Contact Dan or Fred at Gretnabikes. I need to contact Dan soon too.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Gretna Bikes has all the new 45 watt Betty-R's, and Betty TL2's listed.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

... and the new Pikos. 

J.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

indebt said:


> Gretna Bikes has all the new 45 watt Betty-R's, and Betty TL2's listed.


Sic!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Lol!!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I was going to be all over the new TL2S but had a change of heart as my Wilma TL is my favorite and most used flashlight and feel I may not ever use it again with the new beast in my collection.

JohnJ80/MaximusHQ any of you thinking of taking the plunge??


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Indebt, I am thinking about getting the new Betty tl but just not sure about being able to keep it cool enough during use so it doesn't step down. Because of this I have been trying to justify the cost.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Good point, i'm guessing you would only get maybe three minutes on full power before stepdown. My Nitecore TM-26 is a fair bit more beefy than the Betty TL2 and at 3500 lumens it steps down in the four minute range so three minutes may even be a stretch for the Betty TL2. Very cool though to have such a tiny flashlight in you hand putting out those lumens even if just for a short time.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

indebt said:


> I was going to be all over the new TL2S but had a change of heart as my Wilma TL is my favorite and most used flashlight and feel I may not ever use it again with the new beast in my collection.
> 
> JohnJ80/MaximusHQ any of you thinking of taking the plunge??


I would love to even though it is totally unnecessary and i shouldn't spend extra money right now.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I was going to be all over the new TL2S but had a change of heart as my Wilma TL is my favorite and most used flashlight and feel I may not ever use it again with the new beast in my collection.
> 
> JohnJ80/MaximusHQ any of you thinking of taking the plunge??


I keep putting the new Piko in my cart and then can't bring myself to buy it. I'll probably feel differently when we get our first frost and kill the bugs and I can use a helmet light again.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

common JohnJ80,,,,,,,,,,,,, just do-it!!! You know you will order in a bit anyway, by then you could have it in your hands if you order now. LOL!!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yeh I know MaximusHQ, tempting though isn't it,,, fall time is the worst for me when Lupine comes out with it's latest and greatest. I know I've said this before but I think i'm good for a couple of years now,or until Cree figures out a led that will stay cool enough at high output that you can run full out with out much step down if at all.

Ok ok ok, we'll see about next year.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

indebt said:


> I think i'm good for a couple of years now,or until Cree figures out a led that will stay cool enough at high output that you can run full out with out much step down if at all.


Running an XML at 3A and 85C case temperature you get 6% decrease in lumen maintenance after 6,000 hours. I'm guessing this is a bit warmer than most light heads get and a bit longer than most riders ride (ever). :thumbsup:
www.cree.com/xlamp_app_notes/LM80_results


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Defiantly more hours than I would ever ride, guess better wording would be cool enough (60c) or less, that where we are now at the ansi outputs with the Xm-L2's that lamp head internals wouldn't be effected thus no stepping down in output. Example,,, Betty-R stays at 4500 lumens with half the airflow needed now based on same ambient temperature. Hope I'm making sense. Cheers!!


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Debating on a good 2x lupine system. This will be for everything-- all night mountain bike singletrack rides from sunset to sunrise, all night dirt road rides in the middle of nowhere, commuting around town, and everything in between. I am thinking Piko 4 or 7 for the helmet, and maybe a wilma 10 or 14 for the handlebars. A few questions though-- money is always a factor, but is the Betty that much better than the Wilma that it's worth the cost? I feel like it might be diminishing returns at that point over the Wilma. 

Think I could easily get away with a 2x Piko system running one on the handlebars and one on the helmet? Or is it worth the money and weight upgrade to grab a Wilma/Betty to compliment a Piko?

Does anyone here run a Piko TLmax flashlight on either their helmet or handlebars and like it? I do like fully contained systems when possible, but would be losing out on some battery life by going integrated like that.

Also, I hate a heavy helmet, so Piko is really as heavy as I'd wanna go for a helmet light. I might even get 2 of the smaller batteries instead of one bigger one just to feel less weight up there


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Couloirman said:


> Debating on a good 2x lupine system. This will be for everything-- all night mountain bike singletrack rides from sunset to sunrise, all night dirt road rides in the middle of nowhere, commuting around town, and everything in between. I am thinking Piko 4 or 7 for the helmet, and maybe a wilma 10 or 14 for the handlebars. A few questions though-- money is always a factor, but is the Betty that much better than the Wilma that it's worth the cost? I feel like it might be diminishing returns at that point over the Wilma.
> 
> Think I could easily get away with a 2x Piko system running one on the handlebars and one on the helmet? Or is it worth the money and weight upgrade to grab a Wilma/Betty to compliment a Piko?
> 
> ...


 Two Piko 7's would be a great set up, super light and four hour run times on the highest settings. Or as you mentioned going with a pair of smaller battery's to keep the helmet self contained.

If in your budget a Wilma 14 for the bars would be obviously a significant step up. I think this would be the best of both worlds for what I think your looking for. 4000lumen set up with long battery life as you could run all night with more that enough light at half power.

As for the Betty-R I think it would over power the Piko as the output difference between the two are significant but maybe better be answered by someone who is running that combo. I have a pair of betty-R 12's last years model and I do love the set up especially as I control both lamp heads off of just one remote. But unless a wireless remote as really important to you, there is much better value I think in going with the Wilma as the extra lumens from the betty-R would only be usable on very fast descents, not to mention a lot more coin.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with indebt - the Betty would wipe out the Pika on the helmet. I also doubt that you would use the Betty on full much. 

In general, I've found that a ration of 2:1 for bars/helmet seems to work the best. I have an older 1500 lumen wilma and it worked very well with my 750 lumen Pika. But now, with the new Wilma at 2400, it gets lost in the Wilma's beam and would be best paired with the new Pika at 1200 lumens.

A two Pika system would also be pretty good but I'd like a touch more on the bars and would pair that with a Wilma instead. But if weight, size and runtime are more important than the raw lumens, then the twin Pika system is hard to beat. You can, for instance, run just on the bars with the Wilma - which I do during bug season, but with the twin Pikas I think you'd need to run them together all the time.


J.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks guys! Yeah I guess Ill pull the trigger on a piko and a wilma then. I heard from a friend though that he ruined one a few years back because the battery connection on his wasn't fully waterproof and it got wet and shorted. I there anything to worry about on that end? I ride in the pouring rain sometimes and can't be worrying about something like that


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I've been riding in Squamish/Whistler BC on the (wet) coast with the lupines for approx four years now without any issues other than a bit of condensation on one of my lamp heads. Gretna took care of that issue even after the warranty ended. They are awesome to deal with. It may have been an issue where the plug wasn't pushed in all the way a few times as they are very tight fitting and moisture corroded the connector, or your buddy didn't keep the connections lubed with Lupines Dutch Grease. Defiantly very weather resistant products so wet weather ready.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Lupine is sort of the class of the class of bike lights if you take their product line as a whole. 

Although Lupine hasn't said so, the Wilma and Pika combination just really seems like it was designed to be complementary. The Wilma (at least to me) seems smaller in real life than it looks in pictures and the Pika is downright tiny. A Pika on the helmet with the extension cable to a battery in the pocket would be hard to tell you had anything on the helmet at all.

The Pika has a narrower beam that fits within the Wilma (wider beam's hotspot). When you are riding and looking straight ahead, it's like you have one light.

J.


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

Has anyone been able to enable the center-led on the new 4500 Betty?


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## rgurney (Sep 30, 2009)

The Center LED is mentioned first on page 35. The manual refers you to page 40, where in small print is ".3W Center-LED" next to the step which shows 4 red LEDS (in working condition, those red LEDs will not light up). Press and hold the button for 4 seconds until one green LED lights up, then release the button. The cycle of brightness levels begins to automatically cycle. Follow the sequence of brightness levels which progresses automatically. When the sequence gets through the blue leds, watch carefully for the Center LED to go on. Then quickly press the button.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

What is the center LED for?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Center led is for a 0.3watt dim reading light or map light, not a feature I've used or probably ever will use myself. Some may.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Ah. That for sure would have application in backcountry uses, SAR, etc....

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes defiantly SAR, or caving etc. I wouldn't want to use it night riding though as I believe that once you have that super low in you settings it could be hazardous as I wouldn't want to come upon a slower technical section decide to cycle down from 7200 lumens and hit that ultra low setting as you would be blinded for a second until you pressed the remote for the next programed output. I think Lupine would have utilized that center led better had they made that singe led programmable up to it's potential ,0.3watts and a few higher outputs up to 750.


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## mehukatti (Sep 21, 2005)

rgurney said:


> The Center LED is mentioned first on page 35. The manual refers you to page 40, where in small print is ".3W Center-LED" next to the step which shows 4 red LEDS (in working condition, those red LEDs will not light up). Press and hold the button for 4 seconds until one green LED lights up, then release the button. The cycle of brightness levels begins to automatically cycle. Follow the sequence of brightness levels which progresses automatically. When the sequence gets through the blue leds, watch carefully for the Center LED to go on. Then quickly press the button.


I have done exactly that, but the center-led doesn't light up. I can select the mode that is indicated by four red leds, but the center led does not light up. When I exit the programming mode, and select the center-led mode, the lamp waits maybe two seconds and reverts back to other mode that I have set up. Maybe my lamphead is faulty, but that's why I was wondering if it works for someone else in here?

The center led might be useful in city traffic so that other people notice you in dark. The lowest power "normal" mode (1W) that uses six leds is still quite bright when you compare it to normal low power leds lights that e.g. commuters use.


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## rgurney (Sep 30, 2009)

According to the Lupine Forum (in English mode), the center LED on full power would overheat as it is too far from the housing to conduct heat well, therefore it is used as indebt says, for dim light reading. Will check with Bill at Gretna for the correct way to turn it on.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

How heavy does the battery for the Piko 7 feel on your helmeted head? I am debating getting the Piko 7 as a helmet light, or getting the Piko 4 with an extra battery. I'd obviously rather not carry around extra crap if I dont have to, but that Piko 7 battery looks kinda bulky

Also, most of the lights on Lupine's site just have 3 run times listed. For instance, on the Piko page it just lists runtimes at 0.4, 4, and 13 watts. Is that all you get with these lights or are there settings in between?


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

You wouldn't like the Piko 7 Battery on your helmet, anything more than a two cell battery will feel to heavy in my opinion on the lid. If you are comfortable putting the battery in your jersey pocket or camel pack you wouldn't even know you had a Piko on your helmet.

Google Gretna bikes click on Lupine lighting Piko class, when that page opens up scroll down you should be able to click on the (manual) icon and it will download the information on run times and all features.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Ditto what indebt says. I don't like having any battery on the helmet although the 2 cell version is tolerable. I prefer to use the extension cable that comes with the Piko and put the battery in my jersey pocket. That works great.

It's an individual thing, though and I'm pretty picky anyhow.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Opposed as what I've written previously, there will be an update for the older pre-R-Bettys:
• Thema anzeigen - Betty Upgrade, nicht R
Seems they have changed mind against commercial reason. A copper board with 7 XML 2, said to give +600 lumen, announced for "still this year". 
Still not fully clear if available for both variants with inner and outer switch, but I guess there will be an upgrade for both.

regards


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanx CHnuschti for the update. It's nice Lupine has given the 1st Gen Betty-R owners an upgrade option. Myself I wouldn't be interested for the lumen gains as I believe one would hardly notice the extra 600 lumens. Where the upgrade may be appealing to some and myself, is that the reported cooler running XM-L2 leds may help reduce the lamp head temperature translating into less air flow needed for high output. That would be very beneficial to those in warmer climates.


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## CrashTheDOG (Jan 4, 2004)

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Wilma/bar and Piko/helmet combo and wanted to get some forum input on battery sizes for the two. I will be storing the Piko headlight battery either in a jersey or hydration pack.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

CrashTheDOG said:


> I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Wilma/bar and Piko/helmet combo and wanted to get some forum input on battery sizes for the two. I will be storing the Piko headlight battery either in a jersey or hydration pack.


That will be a killer set up.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

CrashTheDOG said:


> I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Wilma/bar and Piko/helmet combo and wanted to get some forum input on battery sizes for the two. I will be storing the Piko headlight battery either in a jersey or hydration pack.


 Most important question is how long are your rides,,,, and do you live in a cool climate as I do which can affect battery performance?

Having to do a bit of guessing here and I will assume you rides will be longer than two hours I would go for the Piko 7 as you will be putting the battery in your jersey pocket. This will give you up to four hours of run time on the highest setting or a bit less in cooler climates or an aging battery down the road.

To stay with the run times I would go with the 13.2 mAh smartcore on the Wilma 14 as that will give you three hours and twenty minutes of run time on the highest setting. I always like to have a bit more battery than I need incase of an unexpected long ride or brake down, or as already mentioned, in cooler temperatures or an aging battery I would still have lots of performance.

If your rides tend to be shorter than two hours, go with the Piko 4, and one size smaller battery (9.9aMh) smartcore for your Wilma 10. Cheers!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

CrashTheDOG said:


> I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Wilma/bar and Piko/helmet combo and wanted to get some forum input on battery sizes for the two. I will be storing the Piko headlight battery either in a jersey or hydration pack.


I agree that that is a totally awesome set up. It's what I ride with but I have the 2400 lumen Wilma and the 750 lumen Piko. I typically ride with my Wilma on the road and don't run it full out (don't need to). I run it at about 2000 lumens or whatever the default is for the middle brightness. That's fine for most things. When descending at speed, I'll kick it up to full.

My Piko is not bright enough to run against the Wilma and so I'm thinking of upgrading it. I actually use it as my emergency light or around the house as a headlight. I was using my 1500 lumen Wilma as a helmet light but ran that at the middle setting too (about 1000 lumens) so it should be approximately equal to your newer Piko.

Using that set up with the (then) 5aH battery, 1 hour to 1.5 hour rides are no problem. I never had a battery go flat on me even though I do carry an extra one. I have the 2.7Ah battery for the Piko and it seems to run on that forever even full out.

If you are going to use a backpack, and you're not worried about money, I'd go one of two ways - get several of the smaller 3Ah batteries and then plan on switching them. They are so small that I like how they fit under a stem. Very unobtrusive so it would be worth it switch a battery after an hour or so. Otherwise, I'd get two of the 6Ah batteries and go with that.

If you are mountain biking then you might want to consider two Pikos. That could be a really killer set up if you think you need a helmet light. You wouldn't know either of them are there, they are so small.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some delay for the upgrade boards/platine for the pre-Betty_R Bettys (older models with 26W or less). Announced now for end of January.
? Thema anzeigen - Betty Upgrade, nicht R


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Upgrade for the old Bettys with 26W or less (pre R Models) are now available (for 95 Euros): Upgrade 2013

It was measured that the very old 1st-generation Bettys with the red board/platine (P4 leds i think) come from 750 to whooping 2600 lumen with this upgrade. That's quite a jump.
For the last available pre-R-Betty with 2600 lumen the upgrade delivers 3000 lumen.
? Thema anzeigen - Betty Upgrade, nicht R

regards


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

The TL Minimax has gone up in price a bunch since last yr. Do Lupines ever go on sale, or have discount codes at all? Is gretna the best place to order?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

No. No. Yes.

J.


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## pigmode (Nov 15, 2009)

Ahh, thanks J


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Diffusor for Wilma and Betty R announced for "next week": ? Thema anzeigen - was so läuft
Listed as available in the lupine shop: Filter & Diffusor
Light output said to be just 10% less and some efforts were taken in order not to lose too much throw. Not as clip on, the original frontcap must be removed, the diffusor is to be screwed on the thread.

regards

EDIT: will be available also for older versions/models of the Betty and Wilma.


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks again for the update!


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