# Excavator, which one?



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

We're based in Quebec, Canada. Soil is typical of the east coast: rocks, more rocks, roots, even more roots, clay in many places, sometime sandy, sometime loamy but mostly covered with thick layer of organic material. We have snow on the ground from December until May. 

We've worked with a Bobcat MT55 last year. Built about 8km of singletrack with it. We had a custom 6-way blade and a bucket. Worked mostly with the blade. 

We also worked with a Kubota KX41-3 for a couples weeks on another project and we think it better suited for the type of work we are doing. Unfortunately, we had a lot of troubles with the rubber tracks coming off. We don't think it's an operator issue since both operator were experienced (on bigger machines tough). 

We are still renting the machines.

For 2009, we'd like to use a mini-excavator only. The operator we're looking to work with prefer metal to rubber tracks. What's your tought on it? Any better?

We've worked with the Kubota KX41-3 but found that it somewhat lack a bit of response in term of hydrolic. Any other model we should look into? Just keep in mind that the main brands availables here are Kubota, Bobcat, John Deere.

Are metal tracks available for KX41-3 ?

Would you consider something bigger than an KX41 to build XC trails on an 15-20% sidehill ? Something up to 5ft wide?

Any input is welcome!


-Jerome


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

Bump it up for Jerome who has a great project ahead of him this summer!

I'm sure you'll find people here that can help...


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## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

Metal tracks do such damage. I don't recommend them.

I do recommend buying an ex with a thump attachment. That'll come in handy with the rock & roots you have. 

Also, five feet wide is a pretty big foot print. Buy the next smaller size that lets you expand and contract the tracks. Bigger machines have a lot of swing over the tracks, which causes the rear of the machine to strike the backslope in semi steep to really steep terrain. That doesn't apply to a zero-swing radius machine, of course.

D


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the answer trail guru!

In that case, I think we'll look again into rubber track. The KX41 features retractable tracks and it came in handy a few times. A thumb is something we wanted anyway on the machine. 

I'll keep you posted.

In the meantime, I'll go back to wait the answers for the grants. No grants, no machines


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## supercub (May 5, 2008)

You might try posting in a landscape forum. those guys know whats going on with small mobile equipment.


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## dirt pirate (Feb 26, 2009)

I use a Kubota K-008 here in Central Washington. It works well in our semi desert terrain and is fast. As mentioned above you have to watch the tail swing on steep slopes, but if you are cutting the back slope to the proper angle there is plenty of clearance. I have not had issues with the rubber tracks, but I own the machine and keep it well maintained. Machine maintenance is important on our projects since we can often be several miles away from the nearest road. My machine is not equipped with a thumb, but that is in the plans as an improvement. I am a big fan of the smaller machines as the overall impact on the ground is less and are easier to move from place to place.


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## jon248 (Jan 21, 2007)

I agree, go with the rubber tracks. If you are having issues with the tracks coming off, make sure that the jacks are pumped full of grease, this keeps the tension on the tracks and unless there is something wrong with the jacks themselves (bleeding down) then they should hold quite well. I run a Bobcat 331 mini excavator and usually hit the track jacks everyday with a pump of grease otherwise they will get loose.
Jon


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

Funy, as i was reading this thread, there was a banner to this link that sells rubber tracks:
http://www.radmeister.com/t-rubber-tracks-for-mini-excavators.aspx?gclid=CIjr863r1JkCFYJM5Qod6E80YA

Don't know if it helps anyone... but good site to bookmark for the future!


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

So mini-excavator? Or walk-behind?

All i know is "Rubber tracks" and "smaller footprint as possible"...

Verdict? Which works best for which situation?


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## PegasusFP24 (Mar 16, 2009)

Here in Virginia the terrain is variable. I have on two occasions rented Mini-Excavators to do trail work. The first time was on my home farm. We built about 3/4 mile of trail with the machine. The treads came off three times during that build time. Each time requiring the rental company to come out and reassemble the thing. They were Rubber Tracks on the rental machine at the time. the machine did a fine job of working the terrain with the bucket, but the delays in getting the machine to move were huge. It really seemed like we spent more time supporting the machine than doing trail building.
The second experience with a Mini-Ex cemented that I don't want to work with them again. We were building a course on the side of a mountain near Wintergreen. The machine was rented, all was well....got it up the mountain side, started work. 2 feet of trail-Track off.
Rental company out, track fixed. (4 hours later) During that time, I hand built 10 feet of trail to completion.
Back at it with machine, working on a LEVEL area, no roots, no rocks, no loose dirt to get in treads....off it comes again. This is on a Friday, rental company tells me at 2pm that day, they can's be there until MONDAY afternoon to fix it. 
They end the rental contract and come to get the machine that monday. They have to put the track back on 3 times coming down a double track hill with it as it keeps falling off. They still claim that it was nothing wrong with the machine, only the terrain. (you could drive a truck on this trail in 2wd)

Over that weekend while the Kubota Mini-Ex "watched" us we built by hand close to 3/4 mile of trail to completion with 4 - 6 guys. 
So score at the end of the weekend Kubota 10 feet ($190) Trailwork crew 3/4 mile ($Case of good beer and some poptarts)

Long story short, people are faster, trail ends up having better flow and a narrower impact on the environment, and (totally my opinion) the finished result is far better "mountain bike" single track than what they machines make. Sure Machines can build a lot of miles of beautiful wide trail in a short period of time, but they are fraught with disaster when things go wrong. The trail they make also is often wider than what is needed for biking anyway.....not that other users don't need the width.

I am not attacking what people can do with machines. Fattirewilly here in VA is a miracle worker with a walk-behind 6way blade, but even when we took him and this machine to the steep stuff....there were problems...But for multiuse trails....it is awesome what he can do. 
I admit that the problem with the Mini-Ex may be me....I am not gentle with equipment...bike or machines.

With the cost and the danger to human life and limb if one of these things rolls on a slope....I think I will avoid them from here on out....at least on steep angled mountains.
My new favorite tool....the Rogue Hoe. Awesome!!!

-Shawn

www.bikefactoryracing.com


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

PegasusFP24 said:


> I have on two occasions rented Mini-Excavators to do trail work.
> 
> Over that weekend while the Kubota Mini-Ex "watched" us we built by hand close to 3/4 mile of trail to completion with 4 - 6 guys.


What was the first one you rented? Bobcat?

We had a Takauchi (spelling?) at Walnut with zero problems. The tracks were tight and the rental guy said we should have no issues. We also had a professional operator (VDOT employee).

I've heard that Komastu (spelling..again) makes a good one. SK650 on 100% slope = lesson learned. Of course the tracks did stay on...


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

BigJay said:


> So mini-excavator? Or walk-behind?
> 
> All i know is "Rubber tracks" and "smaller footprint as possible"...
> 
> Verdict? Which works best for which situation?


Building bench fast, with volunteer hand finish, in slopes that don't exceed 50-60%, walk behind.

If the slope is steep enough that I can't turn a walk behind around every 25 yards or so, I may most likely take a pass. Repelling a walk-behind with a grip hoist down a 60-100% slope has a high pucker factor that I don't care to do again.

I believe a mini-x is the choice for steep slopes (though I have zero personal experience operating one). You don't need to rely on traction to make forward process with the construction. Build the platform in front and move forward. Just need to make sure the tracks stay on. Perhaps a demo through the drainage ditch (or other off camber area) of the rental company is a good idea before taking a mini home for the weekend.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Professional Machine Opeator*

Okay, I think there are many good points here, however, some I do not agree with.

I believe with a professional operator you can build more, and better trail for cheaper with a mini-x than with any other source. Those of you that have had issues with mini-x's, how much experience building trail did the operator have?

Also, I feel as though a HP rating on a machine is much more important than a size. You can easily use a five foot machine to build 24" bench on slopes ranging from 10% to 110%. I agree that below 10% you will probably be able to build trail faster by hand. However, I would love to see a comparison of hand vs machine, with an experienced operator, on steeper than 50% slope.

To me the moral of this is, if you want to build trails with machines, hire a professional trail builder that has experience building with machines. We can build a ridiculous amount of trail for fairly cheap. If you can build it by hand and not burn out your entire crew, do it. It is really a cost / benefit analysis that you will have to do.

My current favorite machine? Bobcat 325 with a hydraulic thumb. Very versatile and easy to find in nearly every rental market across the country.

Ben


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for all the anwers. 

I'll give another look at the Bobcat and will look again for machine training for our operators. I think we'll tray again with rubber track since it seems to be the logical choice. 

For the guys that think that think a walk-behind is a fast thing to clear a benchcut, I believe you underestimate the amount of rock/mud we have in eastern Canada


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## mnwfrank (Feb 2, 2006)

*The budget track kit*

I learned a trick from Billy Blythe this summer that was a champ way to re-install a thrown rubber track. This was on a rental machine, probably wouldn't recommend as the constant solution on personal equipment, but damn it was quick!
All you need is either a come-a-long or a winch and a loop of cable. Loop the cable around the track and put tension on the cable at a right angle to the machine. Slowly advance the track, with the cable acting like the jockey wheels on a derailleur. POP on it goes. I did this both on a SK650 and Bobcat mt52. I didn't even loosen the track tension on the Bobcat, and got it back on in about 30 seconds, after about 10 minutes of set up. Make sure you have the thrown track of the machine slightly off the ground, so the machine doesn't try to walk on you.


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## brianhann (Mar 1, 2007)

Best machine for narrow tread.

Morrison Trail Blazer.

I have one and love it. Not for the faint of heart though. You need a mechanic/fabricator at your disposal and have a fairly good knowledge of countour line trail cutting before you even get on the machine.

Most of todays machines are designed and built with the "safety first" thought process. Not this thing. They thought of traction first, pushing second, digging third and safety is for when you go home to hang with the wife.

bhann.


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## smilycook (Jan 13, 2004)

brianhann said:


> Best machine for narrow tread.
> 
> Morrison Trail Blazer.
> 
> ...


Where do you buy one of these?


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## brianhann (Mar 1, 2007)

Hard to find. About 60 were built to construct the pacific crest trail. I found mine in Washington state.


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## RideRMB (Feb 28, 2008)

Little late coming into this, but I'll throw in my opinion.

So far you have used a Kubota KX41. With the Bobcat you used you said you mostly used it for the blade.

If you want to go for a smaller excavator than the KX41, I would recommend the U17. It has zero tail swing which is a huge plus when working in heavly wooded areas. The UC can also be shortened to 3'3" which is extremely small. By going with zero tail swing vs. conventional you will also gain a bit of stability due to the main body not overlapping the UC. There is also the Deere 17D and Cat 301.5 aswell. (The Cat does not have zero tail swing)

If you were looking to go bigger, I would say look at the Kubota U25. It can be mated with a full cab for a bit extra. This'll deffinetly help with larger rocks and old growth roots. It can be towed with a newer conventional pickup. Others like it would be the Deere 27 and 35D and Cat 302 and 303CR.

If you go with an excavator you definetly wantto invest in a thumb, it will work wonders when moving larger rocks.


You did say you mainly used the Bobcat for the blade. This makes me want to throw CTLs into the mix. They are skidsteersut designed around rubber tracks. The smallest one available is currently the ASV PT30. It has limited lifting capacities though. The Deere CT315. It has more lifting capacities but it is a bit larger and a bit heavy. Highland Mountain Bike Park up here uses an ASV PT50 or &0 I'm not sure, and also a Cat 257B. Mainly to work in new jump trails and wider beginner trails. While CTLs are more expensive it sounds like you may want to try one if, because using an excavator mainly for the blade will wear out the UC a lot faster.

Oh and I almost forgot, you deffinetly want to go rubber tracks. Steel is heavier, and is very expensive in replacing.


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

@RideRMB: probably I wasn't clear. We used a small Bobcat MT55 walk-behind last year (hence the blade comment) and we want to use an excavator this year. I've worked a bit with a KX41 last year but had issues with the rental machine.

Based on everyone comments so far, I've requested a quote for a Bobcat 425 (same as 325 recommended by Ben but zero tail swing) and for a Kubota U25. Both unit would comes with rubber tracks, quick attach, 16 or 18" bucket, thumb, NO cabin/windows/lights to break in the forest (just the basic canopy). We will rent for about 4 months.

Unfortunately for Bromont, I've hired one of the best trail builder in the province to work with me as machine operator! Also, it looks like we'll have a custom training provided by B4 Consulting in the coming weeks. Things are finally shaping up for this summer and I'm super happy about it!

In the meantime, I'm shopping for a good 4x4 heavy duty pickup (GMC 2500HD or something alike). Looks like the bank will love me this year!


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## zachi (Jul 25, 2006)

I work with a group in Downieville area. Forest Trails Alliance. We have two excavators, both 36" wide tachauchi's.
My new one is a tb16 with tracks that extend out to 48" for stability.

I think excavators are the best all around equipment, especially if you have side slopes. We also use a walk behind ditchwitch with a 6/1 blade. We use this to work behind the excavator shaping burmed corners and doing finish grading. Behind that we have a 2 whl drive Rokon motorcycle that pulls a section of chain link fence weighted down with plywd and rock. This 3 piece combo kicks out the sweet trail at 1400' per day with 2-3 people on average terrain.

I would support the notion of using experienced operators. Tracks coming off, tipping over and inefficient operation are some of the issues that can come with lack of experience. Only one way to get it though.

You can see some of our stuff and a new 20' stone arched bridge we just built at my website, www.casaditerra.net

Zachi


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## RideRMB (Feb 28, 2008)

HypNoTic said:


> @RideRMB: probably I wasn't clear. We used a small Bobcat MT55 walk-behind last year (hence the blade comment) and we want to use an excavator this year. I've worked a bit with a KX41 last year but had issues with the rental machine.
> 
> Based on everyone comments so far, I've requested a quote for a Bobcat 425 (same as 325 recommended by Ben but zero tail swing) and for a Kubota U25. Both unit would comes with rubber tracks, quick attach, 16 or 18" bucket, thumb, NO cabin/windows/lights to break in the forest (just the basic canopy). We will rent for about 4 months.
> 
> ...


Gotcha:thumbsup:

As far as a truck to tow the machine goes. A lot of people dont like Ford but if you wouldnt mind one, Fords have much better towing capacity compared to GMC/ Chevy. A 2009 F-250 will be able to tow more than an 09 Sierra 3500, just for comparison.


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

We just got our Bobcat 425. According to redriderbb (aka Ben) "this machine is the ****, tabernak"!

We got ours with rubber track, canopy, thumb and 20" bucket. the machine is brand-spanking-new. Still breaking in, but already very capable. We moved huge mapple logs to setup a switchback today and the machine didn't even whine a little.

We had a 331 for a few weeks until the 425 came in. The 425 is about 6000 pounds, so 2000 pounds lighter than the 331, but has the same footprint. Just the fact that it's a zero tail swing machine make it so much more versatile is impressive. We were able to maintain an much smaller corridor which help to close the thread.

The 4 days machine training we just got from Ben Blitch helped us a lot to create a narrower trail thread, create more efficient benchcut, design the trail with the machine capability in mind, build better switchback and stuff like that. Totally worth the investment.

Pictures available on the blog at http://benblitch.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.html

-Jerome


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## Swabby (Mar 16, 2008)

Congrats on getting a machine

I am an experienced bulldozer and excavator operator. Throwing tracks can have many factors, but it is usually a combination. Worn undercarriages will drop tracks much easier than new ones, but a good operator can do quite a bit with a worn out undercarriage.

One good way to prevent dropping tracks is to do bucket assisted turns whenever possible, even on flat ground. To do a bucket turn, put the bucket on the ground and lift one end of the undercarriage slightly (not the side). Then spin one track forward, one backward, while running the swing in the right direction. This keeps the sides of the tracks from sliding across the ground, which is a good way to drop tracks, especially if there are stump, rocks, or roots. Bucket turns will also make your undercarriage last much longer. It is still better to turn slowly over a distance by running one track slightly slower than the other, but that is often not possible.

Another good way to keeps your tracks on is to get full length rock guards. They can also protect a new undercarriage from being damaged or worn quickly. They keep the tracks in close to a straight line on the bottom. I'm not sure of the availability of these for smaller machines, but they are definitely a good thing to have for larger excavators and dozers in forestry.

Track tension is another thing to keep in mind. Running your tracks too tight will wear them out extremely quickly, and will also rob power from the machine when you try to move it. Running them too loose will increase the likelyhood that they will come off, and will also wear them out quicker. The manufacturer will give a proper "sag" specification. This should me measured on smooth level ground, after driving forward and slowly coming to a stop. Put a straight edge on the track from the top idler to the front idler and measure the distance in the middle from the straight edge down to the track. For trailbuilding, I would recommend running it slightly tighter than the manufacturer recommendations. Once you've run a machine enough, you will be able to tell how tight you want the tracks, and can generally tension them by eye.

If you run a tracked machine enough, more than likely you will wind up throwing a few tracks. It is good to learn how to put them back on. Release the grease valve and push the front idler back into the undercarriage. It may take quite a bit of force to push the idler back. Then jack up that side of the machine slightly (you can sometimes use the bucket) and try to get the track back on with bars and chains. If it comes off the sprocket end, you can sometimes run a chain through the sprocket (if there are holes in it) and around the track, and then run it on. I have had worn out metal bulldozer tracks slide completely off and roll away. When that happens, you'll more than likely need a few people, and maybe other equipment if the tracks are large. Put the sprocket end on first, because it is harder. After you have the track on, pump up the grease enough to keep it from coming off again, and get to smooth level ground and tighten it to the specification, as I said earlier.

Have fun


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