# Another Top Pull Ultegra Front Deraillleur Conversion



## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm no tuning genius, but I thought this looked pretty easy so gave it a shot.

I was having no luck finding one of the old XTR (m953) or XT (m751) front derailleurs in a top pull configuration (current models are too heavy, especially in the bottom swing variety I needed) so following directions from the last thread I simply converted an old 9 speed ultegra one from bottom pull to top pull. Note: I'm posting this again with instructions as I can't find the old thread, so figure others are probably having the same difficulty. I'm not claiming it as my own idea.










File the head off the rivet labeled 'Filed'.
Hit it through the linkage so the bottom of the linkage is detached from the cage.
Undo the 3mm hex bolt above the filed rivet and remove it.
The outer linkage is now detached completely from the derailleur.
Turn it around and reattach it to the derailleur with the 3mm hex bolt.
Hit the rivet back through the bottom of the linkage.

I haven't done it yet but I think it's probably a good idea to hit the head of the filed rivet with a punch, while blocking the other end of the rivet to stop it being pushed back out. This will help to anchor the rivet in place so it can't work its way back through the linkage.

I also filed a slight indent into the linkage so that when it was turned around it matched the hollow that was originally there, shown in the picture below, otherwise the extra bulge may foul with the inner linkage when in use. I don't know if this needs doing but didn't want to pull it apart again.










The nicest part - 98 grams with no bolt tuning. 50 grams lighter than the current XTR bottom swing. Yes, using a braze-on model with a carbon clamp would be lighter, but I didn't want to. Those flimsy carbon clamps scare me.

No more than 15 minutes for this inexperienced monkey.


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## caballero (Nov 20, 2004)

Im doing this with an ultegra tripple to run on my yeti, i just need the mech to turn up, looks much easier than i thought it was gonna be. Thanks !


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

i actually thought of doing it to the triple version as it'll probably work better, but we had a double at the shop and I couldn't be bothered chasing down a triple. let me know how it works.

when's your asr show up? i'm hoping mine arrives this week.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

cheers! very nice and like you say a good weight without bolt tuning or cf btp clamp! I would like to do something like this with a braze one. Is there no dura ace triple? 


O/T where is the the thread on weight weenism dyeing and no significant innovations in the last couple of years? I had found it on a console I was not logged into but now on my personal comput I can't find it . . .


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

now i know why i couldn't fine the original thread on mtbr...because it's actually on weightweenies, it's a braze-on model if you want to check one out.

the conversion is a bit more difficult on dura ace front mechs, or any 10 speed front mech as they use rivets where the allen screws are on the 9 speed ultegra.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Shimano 10-speed FD linkage wraps around the pivot, so you can't flip it over. Thanks to Shimano's great website, I made Go/NoGo list:

:sad: FD-7800, 7803 Dura Ace 10-speed, No Good 
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../FD/EV-FD-7800-2255_v1_m56577569830608810.pdf
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../FD/EV-FD-7803-2447_v1_m56577569830608811.pdf

:sad: FD-6600, 6603 Ultegra 10-speed, No Good 
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...V-FD-6600_6603-2349_v1_m56577569830608807.pdf

:sad: 105 FD-5600, 5603 10-speed, No Good
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...V-FD-5600_5603-2448_v1_m56577569830608806.pdf

:yesnod: Dura Ace FD-7700 9-speed, OK 
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...FD/EV-FD-7700-1659B_v1_m56577569830610847.pdf

:yesnod: Ultegra FD-6500, 6503 9-speed, OK 
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...-FD-6500_6503-1700A_v1_m56577569830611837.pdf

:yesnod: 105 FD-5500, 5501S, 5501L, 5503, 5504S, 5504L 9-speed OK 
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...V-FD-5501_5504-2174_v1_m56577569830608805.pdf
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...-FD-5500_5503-1737A_v1_m56577569830612175.pdf

Summary: 10-speed bad. 9-speed good.

Related question: Does anyone know the weight of an aluminum braze-on FD boss, such as this http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=61_144_151&products_id=1287 ?
I'm thinking of adding one to a frame, but wonder if braze-on FD + mount weighs less than clamp-pn FD.


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

the standard shimano braze-on clamp is 30 grams for a 34.9 - there are lighter options from parlee and btp though i wouldn't run them on the mtb. i'm not as weenie as others though.

just be careful with the dura-ace 9 speed, i have seen some that use a rivet at the top of the outer linkage rather than the bolt in that exploded view. this would make it a fair bit more unstable having to file both rivets. before you buy check it has a bolt there.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Good old XTR M950 fronts come in at 105-110 grams.. Who needs roadie fronts??


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

Because many frames only suit bottom swing (high mount) derailleurs. The lightest MTB high mount is the M953 at 131 grams, and they're damn hard to find in a top pull configuration.


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## jeffh (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm looking to do this conversion on a new project bike (Gary Fisher Superfly 29er) and have a few questions that I hope someone will know.

I plan to run a 2 X 9 set up with a 36, 26 chain rings on a XTR 970 crank set using the middle and small ring locations. 

Should I use a Dura-Ace FD-7700 (Double) or FD-7703 (Triple) Derailler ? since I will be using inner ring location I was thinking the FD-7703 might be better ? I will also need a 34.9 clamp for the frame.

Does anyone know if the FD-7703 or FD-7700 comes with a integrated 34.9 clamp or do I need to use the bolt on clamp with a braze on type derailler for the 34.9 clamp.

Jeff


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

jeffh said:


> I'm looking to do this conversion on a new project bike (Gary Fisher Superfly 29er) and have a few questions that I hope someone will know.
> 
> I plan to run a 2 X 9 set up with a 36, 26 chain rings on a XTR 970 crank set using the middle and small ring locations.
> 
> ...


I think you'll need to use the braze-on type with clamp adapter.

I think the 7703 would be a better match for 2 reasons. As you stated, you're using the granny position. Also, you're using small rings, so the triple cage 'should' be better for picking the chain up off the 26t. WeightWeenies says the 7803 + clamp is 130g, so may not be worth the effort. If I were in your shoes, I would just use a MTB FD.


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## jeffh (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the update and weight, 

I am also looking at a XTR FD-M971, but it's coming in at 150g with a 34.9 clamp and will work right out of the box.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only way it *might* be worth it is if he were to get the BTP braze on clamp?

So what I would want is a braze on triple ultegra 7703.

Looking at the weight of a ultegra with a alloy clamp it's sub 100grams which isn't to shabby compared to 130grams. 

Seems like I have seen circa 105 gram tuned xtr top pulls but a 34.9 would be a little heavier. 

What about campy triples (braze on) vs. ultegra in weight?


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## jeffh (Jun 7, 2006)

What is the BTP braze on clamp ?

I think with the Superfly frame I will need a top pull derailler (I just wish the bike would show up ) 

Any campy top pull conversions being done ?


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

jeffh said:


> I plan to run a 2 X 9 set up with a 36, 26 chain rings on a XTR 970 crank set using the middle and small ring locations.
> Jeff


Jeff, you'll need some chainring spacers if using non XTR rings on the 970s. I went through a similar conversion, and the middle ring is too close to the big ring, I believe I used 1.2mm spacers.

Also look on ebay for an older XTR, much lighter than the new crap.. m950, m952, m953, replace the clamp on bolt with a m5x20 alloy bolt, and the pinch bolt with a m5x10 alloy bolt..


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

jeffh said:


> What is the BTP braze on clamp ?
> 
> I think with the Superfly frame I will need a top pull derailler (I just wish the bike would show up )
> 
> Any campy top pull conversions being done ?


www.b-t-p.de/

It's available in a couple different standard sizes and custom ones. They changed the design a little so I guess they are stronger. Ninos broke (old design) but mine has been really solid. Basically the old version was a single bolt design  but the new one is a more standard two bolt clamp design.


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## jeffh (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up, 

I'm using TA Chinook chainrings, inner and middle for the 2 X 9 set up I'll check for spacing.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

same rings i'm using, i would get some .06, and 1.2 spacers, i honestly can't remember which ones i used..


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

If you're looking at using a braze-on derailleur also consider the Parlee clamp. For the granny/middle setup I'd also think the triple model would be better suited, but it's purely speculation.

OT: slobberdoggy - old Sachs fd! very nice. had one for a while but got rid of it, kind of regretting that.


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## topfuel98 (Sep 27, 2007)

i have a 105 9 speed that i took off a trek XO1 its 34.9 clamp, its bottom pull, getting ready to convert it for my superfly, it weights 108g i thing you can find them on ebay pretty cheap.. i think change a few bolts it will be sub 100g


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I have a DA Bottom-pull I was looking at for doing this conversion, and I realized that it was a really bad idea, mainly because of the angles. 

If you inspect a proper Top Pull you will see that the angle the cable makes with the lever arm is acute (less than 90deg). So when you pull the cable, it ends up making about a 90deg angle with the lever arm. Now if you know your high school physics. You know that:

Torque = Force X Radius 

But, this is a vector cross product, which in magnitude becomes

Torque = Force x Radius x sin (theta)

So, maximum torque is had at the sin(90deg) = 1, any angle less or greater will
reduce the torque. After about 45deg or 135 deg (same difference) the force is reduced by quite a bit, sin(45deg or 135deg) = 0.707

Ultimately, the problem with converting a BP to a TP is that you start with an obtuse angle that is already almost 135deg, then when you start to pull the cable you're loosing torque, which the only way to rectifiy (because the radius (or length of lever arm) is static) is to increase the force. This puts more strain on you shifters and your thumb, and would probably lead to premature failure of the shifter.

Personally, I would not do this modification, and I would not recommend that anybody else do it.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

ginsu2k said:


> Sorry to rain on the parade, but I have a DA Bottom-pull I was looking at for doing this conversion, and I realized that it was a really bad idea, mainly because of the angles.
> 
> So, maximum torque is had at the sin(90deg) = 1, any angle less or greater will
> reduce the torque. After about 45deg or 135 deg (same difference) the force is reduced by quite a bit, sin(45deg or 135deg) = 0.707
> ...


I did this exact conversion on a Campy Record Titanium, and at first had trouble with the lack of leverage. I was careful with the placement of the cable exit from the clamp to maximise the angle of attack, and it shifts fantastic - 1,000 times better than the top pull XTR it replaced.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

ginsu2k said:


> Sorry to rain on the parade, but I have a DA Bottom-pull I was looking at for doing this conversion, and I realized that it was a really bad idea, mainly because of the angles.
> 
> If you inspect a proper Top Pull you will see that the angle the cable makes with the lever arm is acute (less than 90deg). So when you pull the cable, it ends up making about a 90deg angle with the lever arm. Now if you know your high school physics. You know that:
> 
> ...


my god, you are the wizard of CAD and linkage angles arent you?


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

ginsu, i was worried about this exact thing before i did the conversion. luckily parts don't cost as much when you work in a shop so i figured it was worth a try. if my frame ever arrives i'll be able to tell you all if it works. the fact that i use gripshift should help along with the rather narrow chainline of middleburn duo cranks with a 110mm spindle.


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## AggieXCRacer (Oct 10, 2005)

snowdrifter said:


> same rings i'm using, i would get some .06, and 1.2 spacers, i honestly can't remember which ones i used..


I wound up inspecting the rings and measuring it out...the teeth for the original 970 22T ring sit back 2mm from the plane of the ring/crank interface. The teeth for the Chinook "little ring" sit on the plane of the ring/crank interface. The teeth for the original 32T and the Chinook "big ring" both sit on the plane of the middle ring/crank interface. To make a long story short, I ordered a set of 2mm spacers...we'll see how they work out when they get here.

Also, if I am running a 2x9 setup on XTR M970s with a 28T in the little ring position and a 40T in the middle ring position with grip shift, which of these front derailleur options would be ideal? Current FD is an XT 760 top swing.


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## elmar schrauth (Dec 15, 2006)

there is a adapter, that converts every rodderrailleur to top pull
http://crossladen.de/shop/article_1...satz-der-Rolle.html?shop_param=cid=1&aid=194&


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

This tread is very interesting, just bought a 2008 XT top pull that came in at 165g:madmax: 
Going to an Ultegra front would be the cheapest 65g saving that can be had on my new build.

*I just need to be assured that the change to a road derailleur comes with no effect of shifting efficiency,* as it will be used on my main race bike and nothing is more annoying than a dropped chain in the heat of the battle!

Someone will certainly comment that chains never drop on a bike stand!:devil:

I will also study the adapter conversion suggested above. 
Thanks for the input!


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

My XTR front derailleur (FD M971) comes in at 127g which I think is not bad but if I can convert a 9 speed Dura-Ace to top pull, it might be worth it as long as it comes in under 90g. I am pretty sure my Dura-Ace Braze-on is around 74g (10 speed braze-on) and if the 9 speed is around the same and you can get a clamp that weighs in at around 10g then I think it would be worth it to investigate.

That would be a 43g savings or around 34% which is pretty significant.

Can someone or do you know if someone has documented this process with pictures. The OP's post pretty much says how to do it but most of us are guys and we are visual so pics of this done step by step would be awesome.

The Campy and Dura-Ace are pretty close in weight for the FD but the carbon of the Campy with a carbon clamp would look very cool.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

elmar schrauth said:


> there is a adapter, that converts every rodderrailleur to top pull
> http://crossladen.de/shop/article_1...satz-der-Rolle.html?shop_param=cid=1&aid=194&


Elmar,

What is the weight of the adapter? Can you post photos of the Shimano version?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Shimano was offering a dirt simple adapter 15 years ago. It was a bolt on cable housing stop that you fixed to a bottom pull derailleur where the cable normally anchored. You run extra housing to the derailleur and anchor the cable below it (usually with a set screw drilled into the BB shell or the back of the seattube). I may still have one or two in my small parts collection. If I find one I'll post a picture.


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## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

Or just buy a Deore derailleur and give it some dremel love around the clamp and rocker area. Mine weighs 111g (tuned a bit, of course, but is also top swing)


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Found one, its 6 grams. You'll need an extra bolt to anchor the derailleur cable (which if you us Al will probably be offset by the weight you save drilling the BB shell and tapping it for the bolt threads) and maybe another 10g worth of cable housing. Oh and another gram or two of cable. Oh my....


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

DeeEight,
Can you post a pic of this setup, or a sketch? I'm guessing you need a fair bit of slack in the FD cable housing to allow it to move?

I think I have seen this setup ago on an old touring bike, but can't recall the details.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

No more slack than is in the brake cable housing of CX bikes with extra brake levers on the flats which push the housing to actuate the brakes. The principal is the same.


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

Ausable said:


> *This tread is very interesting*, just bought a 2008 XT top pull that came in at 165g:madmax:
> Going to an Ultegra front would be the cheapest 65g saving that can be had on my new build.
> 
> *I just need to be assured that the change to a road derailleur comes with no effect of shifting efficiency,* as it will be used on my main race bike and nothing is more annoying than a dropped chain in the heat of the battle!
> ...


Before going off from work, it's been my practice to check what's cooking here @MTBR most particularly one of my few fave threads here... Then I've just read your post! This just made my day!!! :thumbsup: But certainly I have no beef with owners of uber light bikes aka showbikes who don't really "ride"... To each his own!

This is why I'm loving MTBR! Nice exchange of ideas. Another knowledge base widens up!

And, o0oh... Kudos for keeping the spirit alive... Spirit of weightweenism... 

Thanks, guys!

Be safe now!


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## aulmen (Jul 4, 2006)

Top Fuel - did you get the 105 to work on your Superfly?


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## bigfish (Nov 16, 2005)

I have a Dura-ace that I converted to top pull about a year ago and it looks like it would work great with the Superfly. The Superfly has a very low cable stop an the seat tube that lets the cable pull angle be closer to perpendicular to the derailleur arm.


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

thought i should let you guys know. i tried it on my asr-sl running middleburn duo cranks (29/42), 110mm bottom bracket spindle and gripshift shifters. it worked but there was noticeably more effort required to shift up due to the lack of cable angle.

if i wasn't using gripshift i don't think it would have worked as my thumb wouldn't be strong enough to repeatedly use a trigger shifter. also, my chainline is rather narrow compared to current external bearing setups which helped the situation.

that being said, i've now taken it off the bike and am using a conventional xtr front derailleur as the extra force can't have been doing good things to the shifter mechanism. the top pull ultegra has been put onto a cyclocross bike (yeti arc-x) and works faultlessly with no change in perceived shift effort. having an even narrower chainline has made all the difference.


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## topfuel98 (Sep 27, 2007)

here is my in work 105, i fabed a new arm for it today, just messin around, i moved the lever arm down so it pulls a lot easyer and dose not go over center like it use to.. it works so much better, it still needs some work to make it look better, but its my work in progress, another 30 mins and i'll be there... its goin on my superfly running a 26/38 gearing.. it weights 106g right now but i see about another 20 grams that can come off of it...


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## bigfish (Nov 16, 2005)

Please do post pictures of the final if you manage to remove 10-20g. I got my Dura-Ace braze on with a 34.9 Shimano adapter down to 88.7g and I would love to take 8 more grams off it.


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## jeffh (Jun 7, 2006)

The new arm is what this project needs, :thumbsup:

I'm doing the same conversion with a FSA Energy front derailleur that is meant for a compact crank set. One of the thing I like about the Energy Derailleur is that it is servicable with cir clip pivot pins and is readily available.

http://road.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=115


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## topfuel98 (Sep 27, 2007)

jeffh said:


> The new arm is what this project needs, :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm doing the same conversion with a FSA Energy front derailleur that is meant for a compact crank set. One of the thing I like about the Energy Derailleur is that it is servicable with cir clip pivot pins and is readily available.
> 
> http://road.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=115


Thanks, that orange nut is alu and the pin goin threw is ti. its called a hi lock fastener, there in the aircraft industry..


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## Ardent (Dec 18, 2006)

elmar schrauth said:


> there is a adapter, that converts every rodderrailleur to top pull
> http://crossladen.de/shop/article_194/Umwerferadapter-zum-Ersatz-der-Rolle.html?shop_param=cid%3D1%26aid%3D194%26


I looked up what that is - it's apparently made by a company called www.speen.de - they make 3 models of it, "campatoppull" "fsatoppull" and "shimanotoppull". Here's the link to the page: List, and here's a link to the manual pages to install here, and here's a link to the webshop if you need to buy one here.

Conversions have been done even of Campagnolo record, see these old threads here and here. IMHO, the old fashioned tried and tested way of just simply using a lower pulley is probably the most reliable way - I don't really like the idea of punching out rivets or grinding bits away and expecting it to remain rock solid at critical times during a race. It'd probably be fine for show or light use though.


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## elmar schrauth (Dec 15, 2006)

the shimanoversion is only 6 gramms including bolt


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## Ardent (Dec 18, 2006)

elmar schrauth said:


> the shimanoversion is only 6 gramms including bolt


I have to say, it does look fairly interesting. Are there any close up photos of it installed, and are there any international vendors out there?


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## G-Live (Jan 14, 2004)

jeffh said:


> The new arm is what this project needs, :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm doing the same conversion with a FSA Energy front derailleur that is meant for a compact crank set. One of the thing I like about the Energy Derailleur is that it is servicable with cir clip pivot pins and is readily available.
> 
> http://road.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=115


I used one of the FSA compacts for awhile on my bottom pull FS Supercal 29er. Mostly for a cleaner (less mud catching) set up. I could not get it to work too well. Probably because I could not get at the stop screws for fine adjustments because of the swingarm.

I then put a Sram Force on it and it works like magic on my 2x9 set up. Angled screws much easier to get at and make adjustments. Works so well that I want to get a different HT frame with bottom pull so I can use on on my HT as well. Weight savings was a bonus.

Have not looked closely to see if I could convert one to top pull. I'd rather have a new Mamasita anyway:thumbsup: 
G


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## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

Ardent said:


> I have to say, it does look fairly interesting. Are there any close up photos of it installed, and are there any international vendors out there?


Does it look simple enough to just make one? I think it is a small rectangle of metal with two holes in it - one for the new cable cinch and the other for the old one.

I'll ask around about having one made.


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## elmar schrauth (Dec 15, 2006)

Ardent said:


> I have to say, it does look fairly interesting. Are there any close up photos of it installed, and are there any international vendors out there?


wait till monday
i got the first shimao-adapter yesterday
on monday i will put it on ridley x-fire, and post photos

this is one more advantage ,because i can put a dogfang on the frame ,when the role comes off.

.
x


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