# Hub destruction Poll



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

We ride a Mountain Tandem and are 340 lbs. I have posted a similar, but less elaborate poll on the Mountain Tandem page if you're interested. 

I don't want to taint your responses, so I have just erased the explanation of why I've become obsessed with gathering hard data concerning hub failures under heavy-duty demands. It seems the folks on this page seem even harder on hubs then the Mountain tandem crowd, and a good source of data on broken hubs.

I've not included Shimano, as it seems clear that they are not up to demanding loads. I have included all the brands that I have seen mentioned in stories of failures, and those that seem popular. There is a lot of cross-over with our crowd. I'm sure I've missed some. If you have had GOOD luck with some brand (and you've beat the bejeezus out of it) that I haven't included, please post up.


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

I have never destroyed a hub.

Hubs that I have needed a new freehub body for
-Shimano FH-M525
-Shimano FH-6500 (Ultegra on road/cross bike)
-Mavic FTS-X hub on CrossRoc wheels

Hub I was sure I'd destroy but didn't
-Cheap OEM Quando cup and cone hubset...just wouldn't die through multiple winters in the PNW.

Hubs that have been rock solid
-DT Swiss 240
-DT Swiss Onyx/370
-Shimano FH-M756
-Shimano FH-M665
-Shimano FH-M529
-Novatec D042
-WTB Laserdisc Lite

I don't grind though, more of a spinner


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks to the 5 who have responded. I am really excited to get more responses to this poll. The more riders who respond, the more instructive it will be. Of course, you know that... there, I'm being annoying. Someone school me on how to accomplish this without putting people off


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

14 responses and counting!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

<-- Waits for TooTallUK to pipe up about how destroying a rear hub has nothing to do with physics and everything to do with "bad spannering".


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

6 responses over 17 hours. Keep 'm comin! I'll leave this open as long as the responses keep coming in.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Chris King.

It is worth the extra $$!!!


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

ki5ka said:


> Thanks to the 5 who have responded. I am really excited to get more responses to this poll. The more riders who respond, the more instructive it will be. Of course, you know that... there, I'm being annoying. Someone school me on how to accomplish this without putting people off





ki5ka said:


> ...I'll leave this open as long as the responses keep coming in.


I'll start by thanking you. Your poll is a great idea, and over an extended time interval it could collect enough data to become a truly great resource on the subject of hub durability. I would encourage you to pursue this further, a lot further. The data is probably going to trickle in slowly, and the initial data set will be too small, too anecdotal. You need a lot more data, so give it time, and to get more exposure without having to bump the thread, ask the board monitor(s) to make this a sticky thread. Leave the poll open. Many in the snow belt are not riding yet, and probably are not participating in the forum yet.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

29 responses, guess this is still going... so, not to stir the pot or nut'n but there some noise over on the tandem mountain bike site (yes, there is such a thing) debating who puts more stress on the rear hub, mountain tandems, or clydes. I think some of you should pipe up over there >


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## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

I've never destroyed a hub, either. My Shimano XTs went for years on my last bike, and put up with a lot of pounding and practically zero attention. DT hubs on my Enduro seem fine as well.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Well... maybe they're right, tandems eat Shimanos like crazy...


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

ki5ka said:


> Well... maybe they're right, tandems eat Shimanos like crazy...


The Shimano HF08 is specifically made for tandems, though a M529 might do pretty well as they are burly. I would run an XT on a tandem though.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

80,000+ on whatever Shimano 105 hubs that came on my '92 C-Dale R600. Yeah, it's a road bike, but it also has a few hundred on trails due to some chases we used to do, and also a cyclocross race or two. Yes, done on slicks. max weight: 220Lbs.

Formula DC-1's survived three years on my F5, thousands of miles. Weight: 350-400Lbs.

Got an XT front and Saint rear now, 0 miles, hope to get in the first saddle time tonight.

All tandems should standardize on 15mm front and rear, with the 150mm spacing for strong wheels.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

New Wheels! Always fun


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I'm curious to hear the story about the 2 Chris Kings that died???


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

ki5ka said:


> I'm curious to hear the story about the 2 Chris Kings that died???


Lack of maintenance...based on my life as a former bicycle mechanic...can kill any hub


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I think it might be relevant to separate DT Swiss star ratchet hubs from the pawl type.

Maybe.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I started writing that it didn't matter, then I decided to actually think about what you wrote  So are you saying that DT is different from other brands, or that DT Swiss has two different ratchet mechanisms?


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

The star ratchet in the 540, 440, 340, 350, 240s, 190, and 180 hubs is known to be a very reliable freehub design, whereas, the pawl system in their lower level hubs doesn't quite carry the same reputation.

DT Swiss - Hub technology

https://images3.slanecycles.com/bmz_cache/d/de4e57be93ff67df3c1d45a5e12a494b.image.650x650.jpg


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

ki5ka said:


> I started writing that it didn't matter, then I decided to actually think about what you wrote  So are you saying that DT is different from other brands, or that DT Swiss has two different ratchet mechanisms?


DT Onyx and later 370 hubs use a two pawl 16 poe ratchet similar to Shimano and Mavic FTX-S hubs. It has not proven to be nearly as reliable as the Star Ratchet system.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks for the note JRT. Glad to hear that others think this is useful


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## tim300wsm (May 14, 2011)

I had a set of sun jabba the hub on a kink phantom lord bmx bike I did everything from 15 stair gaps to heavy duty street and dirt jumping and they refused to give up the ghost 3 back rims later I sold them to my brother who is 6'2 265 & he finally imploded the rear after a huge gap to a flat landing that toasted the rim and bent both pedals


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## 802spokestoke (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm 6' and 190 lbs and I have freehub problems so i thought this would be a good thread to ask for advice. My problem is that I've ruined my second deore freehub since purchasing my new bike less than 2 months ago. What do I do? Obviously I spent a lot of money and there is no money to buy new wheels (or even a hub). Has shimano ever done anything to help anybody out? 

I will contact the lbs on Monday but any advice/experience would be helpful.
Thanks.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

There's ABSOLUTELY no question who puts more torque on a rear hub - TANDEMS! Sorry clydesdales, but there's simply no comparison. You're limited by two simple factors that do not apply to tandems: front wheel lift and traction loss. VERY rarely have I ever lost traction on my mountain tandem. And lifting the front wheel? Not a chance. And since tandem riders don't need to balance perfectly on the tip of the saddle nose on steep climbs, we can just mash the pedals and climb, climb, CLILMB!

I've gone through five hubs - and counting! Next hub will be a Chris King for sure.

And the ultimate torque environment? SLICKROCK TRAIL! Nothing can destroy a rear hub like a tandem on the infinite traction of Slickrock (OK, not infinite, but you know what I mean!).

I've destroyed a Union Hugi and a Phil Wood on the Slickrock trail. Split the Phil Wood hubshell in half!


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

I'll chime in that the star ratchet system does have a mechanical or structural advantage over the pawl-engagement design, for sure. The star ratchet provides positive contact engagement throughout all the ratchet ramps. Pawls, regardless of what the manufacturers say, usually put most of the torque force on only one or two pawls, leading to failure in high-torque applications.

However, the Hugi/DT hub design has changed over the years. I met Willi Hugi at the trade show years back, just after the Hugi name was sold by Union Frondenberg to DT. When Union made Hugi hubs, they used a very strong, but deep ratchet design. The byproduct of this was a very durable hub, but also a VERY loud freehub when coasting. Customer complaints were enough to convince DT to change the design. Result? Smaller ratchet depths and a quieter-coasting freehub. But that change compromised the torque levels the ratchets could take. In fact, it was so low that single (half) bike riders were blowing them out - as were tandems obviously. This was in the early 2000's, so much has changed since then and I understand they've been redesigned to reduce the failure problems.

I blew through one Cannondale (CODA) Hugi hub and two DT Hugi hubs on the mountain tandem before giving up on them. (BTW, the Union Hugi hub on my road tandem has performed flawlessly for over 20 years with ZERO service! Not that it's ridden THAT much, but still!)

Given all the options I've considered, I'm ready to give Chris King's rear hub a try.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Just found that I cracked the freehub shell on a 170mm hope fatsno rear hub. It was aluminum. Good news is that Hope quickly sent a free steel upgrade. We'll see how that lasts.


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## bigmariow (Oct 1, 2007)

While trying to clean a rock problem a few years ago, I stripped the threads out of a Hugi 240 freehub/shell interface. I sent it back to DT/Swiss, and they replaced it no problem, even though it was over 5 years old. The person I talked to said they had never seen that failure before. I was on that wheel that day because I was waiting for a replacement axle for my King. I have turned the pawls on multiple other shimano/mavic/oem hubs to dust. 10 plus years on my current Chris Kings with minimal maintenance
mario


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

Killed a Shimano Alfine 11, because it was such a piece of sh*t. (This forum shouldn't censor my mild words)


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## Bigb2000 (May 20, 2013)

I exploded a new Hope Evo 40t on a climb. Toasted the outer bearing, inner axle, and 3 of the pawls. Quickly replaced by Hope.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

If your experience is similar to mine, you will be in contact with Hope's customer service fairly often. Good thing is their CS is top notch.


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## Exit (Feb 19, 2010)

Blew through about 6 Shimano hubs. Got a Chris king and it hasn't given me a bit of trouble in 4 years. 325lbs + gear


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

That seems to be the consensus.


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