# Outing



## Slimpee (Oct 3, 2007)

I posted this in another thread but i'm breaking it out into it's own discussion.

I'm sure this has been debated before so if you don't want to discuss it again, move on to another topic...

This is the only forum on which people are so anal about "outing", bike or otherwise. 

Why is that? 

Yes, i understand that it's frustrating to be in negotiations with the seller to have someone else come swooping in.

What if by publicizing a sale a dude is able to buy that last part he needs for a long-time-coming build or his childhood dream bike?

It just seems selfish to me to "hoard" "secret" auctions and CR listings and we should be happy to help each other find cool things...

Just my $.02


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I personally don't think outing Ebay auctions is a problem because (a) we are all running the same searches and (b) retrobike is running better searches and has a vibrant outing board. I can't imagine anything could be outed that isn't "out" already.

CL stuff is different because of timing and retrading. A bunch of interest for a CL item can very likely deep six a deal.

I propose and Ebay outing sticky but will defer to the will of the majority.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Its been discussed a lot....and just how many of the regulars feel about it. There's no hard and fast rule regarding it not being ok.

There are other forums that don't self enforce this....but here it just happens to be frowned upon.

Its this way for several reasons. 1) no for sale posts in the forums...which the VRC already has an issue with. I think outting gives other people who don't bother to read the forum rules the idea that its ok to spam. 2) outting posts can some times be sellers fishing for buyers (also against forum rules). 3) If I'm working hard on a local CL score, its outted, and some guy from somewhere else swoops in and throws a lot of money at what was otherwise a cheap local deal...I'm pissed. My hard work is wasted by an outsider. I don't know about you...but I like scoring great bikes for cheap. Its the only way I can afford this hobby. 4) VRC are not like new bikes....parts are hard to find and getting more scarce. We work really hard for what we get...and its spoiled when someone else outs. 5) VRC is pretty close knit group. We generally all know what each other are looking for...so its easy enough to PM or email a lead to the right people. At least, thats how I've done it (and had leads PM'ed to me).


Again...no hard and fast rule...but just how the general VRC has chosen to self enforce. Outting posts aren't deleted, but the poster might catch some grief.


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

Slimpee said:


> What if by publicizing a sale a dude is able to buy that last part he needs for a long-time-coming build or his childhood dream bike


If dude is looking for said part he is already searching for it and most likely the one who would have the most to loose for the item being outed. If he's not looking for said part, I doubt he's waiting for others to say hay have you seen this. I prefer finding the stuff I need on my own. If I cant find what I need or need help I'll ask or put it in my sig.Then if another member sees something I'm looking for and they dont want it they can pm the person. And yes I bet that more than one member here is running 100 or more RSS feeds for all their interests and needs. Lets use this as an example:
This auction came up last week.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320255124537&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011
This is a mis-listed usa made Hutch Trick Star. A highly sought after frame set. I pm the auctioneer and offered the guy 75 to end the auction early. He agreed and its now mine.
If some one outed it. It could have gone like this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hutch-Trickstar-Bike-Frame-and-Fork-Great-condition_W0QQitemZ160240464085QQihZ006QQcategoryZ98082QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Which deal do you prefer?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I agree with Rumpfy. But both he and I also happen to live in good areas for finding stuff. Maybe thats it. I dont think we all search in the same places. I dont have an RSS feed (or whatever theyre called), I never look at retrobike, I never look at the mtbr classifieds, and I rarely do anything more than a basic search on ebay. But sometimes I find good stuff (moreso in the past, Ive more or less given up with all the hunters now) and I even have my own secret spot (I think only veloculture knows about it) for hunting that we would never out. Outing just helps the lazy IMO. I'd rather have the fervent searcher rewarded. Thats just me.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Ckev, you killed it! Nice work on the BDBIN.


Good example too.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Rumpfy said:


> but the poster might catch some grief.


no kidding. :|

I can see why you don't want to out an auction on CL but on eBay, if I knew that one of you wanted something more badly than me, I wouldn't bid and that's just going to mean a lower final sale price to the winning bidder. But who knows. This group can't possibly all be bidding on the same exact things, right? Also, now that eBay has made the bidding list anonymous, it's also harder to know if you are bidding against your friends.

As for Eric's concern about new people not knowing the rules, you guys are pretty quick to point out how it's supposed to be in here so it's a little hard to stray from understanding the etiquette if you are too lazy to read the sticky.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I agree with Rumpfy. But both he and I also happen to live in good areas for finding stuff. Maybe thats it. I dont think we all search in the same places. I dont have an RSS feed (or whatever theyre called), I never look at retrobike, I never look at the mtbr classifieds, and I rarely do anything more than a basic search on ebay. But sometimes I find good stuff (moreso in the past, Ive more or less given up with all the hunters now) and I even have my own secret spot (I think only veloculture knows about it) for hunting that we would never out. Outing just helps the lazy IMO. I'd rather have the fervent searcher rewarded. Thats just me.


Well...we pay a lot to live where we do, so at the very least we get a decent selection. Its kinda like the 'locals only stay off my wave' mentality I think. 

I'm all for helping out my buddies, but everyone else is the enemy.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ckevlar said:


> Which deal do you prefer?


perfect examply. Reward the savvy, skilled searcher. Not the lazy, rich guy.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sfgirlonbike said:


> no kidding. :|
> 
> I can see why you don't want to out an auction on CL but on eBay, if I knew that one of you wanted something more badly than me, I wouldn't bid and that's just going to mean a lower final sale price to the winning bidder. But who knows. This group can't possibly all be bidding on the same exact things, right? Also, now that eBay has made the bidding list anonymous, it's also harder to know if you are bidding against your friends.
> 
> As for Eric's concern about new people not knowing the rules, you guys are pretty quick to point out how it's supposed to be in here so it's a little hard to stray from understanding the etiquette if you are too lazy to read the sticky.


I think this thread relates more to local CL outtings. Thats a bigger concern to me. 
I'm not too keen on eBay outting either...however bidding is open season. I don't think anyone has really said 'don't bid I want this'. I can think of several occasions where competing forum members have duked it out big time.
Props to the guy finds the hidden auction or works the back door deal or pulls the quick 'buy it now'. Hustle hustle hustle.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

That is a great examply too! BTW, you guys better watch out with that local turf nonsense - I know of a voracious pig that has plans on moving westward


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Two Thumbs Down For Ending An Auction Early*

This _should_ be enforced, but the powers that be find it more worthwile to bust people that use "inapproptiate" keywords.

Its an auction, not a classified ad.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bushpig said:


> That is a great examply too! BTW, you guys better watch out with that local turf nonsense - I know of a voracious pig that has plans on moving westward


I think we have amply examplies here. 

you love NY. You don't want to live here. Its terrible.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> you love NY. You don't want to live here. Its terrible.


Really awful.

Besides, FatMikey would be bummed.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

ckevlar said:


> Which deal do you prefer?


Um.. I prefer the cheaper. Although looking at the condition of the two, Its not really a direct comparison. But still, big score.:thumbsup:


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Shayne said:


> This _should_ be enforced, but the powers that be find it more worthwile to bust people that use "inapproptiate" keywords.
> 
> Its an auction, not a classified ad.


Agreed, it should not be so easy to end auctions early. It would seem like it would be in Ebay's best interest too, because they loose revenue from the auction not ending.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> perfect examply. Reward the savvy, skilled searcher. Not the lazy, rich guy.


amen and or hallelujah


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

Slimpee said:


> This is the only forum on which people are so anal about "outing", bike or otherwise.


Hardly. You need to get other expensive interests and join those specific forums. When I still owned my Porsche I used to be on a forum called Rennlist constantly. Boy would the sparks fly when somebody would out an auction for some obscure or rare RoW part for any given model. Yikes!

That said I have no problem with eBay outing and don't bother with CL because I'm lazy and honestly not really as motivated as some of you folks. If I stumble on something I like and win it, fine. The thing is, there are ALWAYS going to be other people watching auctions, with or without outing. I missed a Wicked based Monster Fat a couple months ago that hadn't had a bid for the whole week it was listed. I bid really low with 58 seconds to go, very first bid in the auction, figuring there must not have been any interest in the thing. With 20 seconds to go I was outbid and couldn't get in a much higher second bid in time.

What kills me is the darn Euros drive up the price on things I need for a couple builds I am working on


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## jeff spicoli (Jan 28, 2008)

Quote: If I'm working hard on a local CL score, its outted, and some guy from somewhere else swoops in and throws a lot of money at what was otherwise a cheap local deal...I'm pissed. My hard work is wasted by an outsider. I don't know about you...but I like scoring great bikes for cheap. Its the only way I can afford this hobby. 
Hey Rumpfy,
Maybe if you sold your Mustang you could afford it?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

jeff spicoli said:


> Maybe if you sold your Mustang you could afford it?


Its not about what I can or can't afford. Why spend $5000 on a bike when you can get it for $500.

I did sell my Mustang.


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## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

As I stated in another thread, there are many techniques to getting a good deal, some of them not very obvious, and outing even a seemingly undesirable or silly auction can hose someone with an "angle" on getting it cheaply. If you find something that you think is ridiculous or good for a laugh, just wait till the auction ends to post it. It will still get a laugh (probably more so if it actually sold) and no one will give you a hard time.

That said, even for straight-up auctions I feel it should be the responsibility of the buyer to find the parts on their own. Like everyone else on this board, I figured out how to find the things I want the hard way. Paying your dues is part of the game and makes you a better player, but "outing" removes the need for any skill or experience.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

When it all comes down to the bottom line on "outing" here on the vrc board is, the "outer" is simply looking for kudos or pat on the back for being the hipster for "finding" the rare, super cool, smokin' deal that one or several of us all ready know about. Example: Rumpfy's recent Klein Rascal score was already mine if I wanted it. It was a few minutes from my house. I know for a fact that everyone and their brother had already seen it, so there was no need to "out" it. Since I already have a '90 Rascal I decided to pass on it for a different little something and one of our own vrc'ers scooped it up, cool. 

I've been pushing for a "read this on "outing" before you enter" for quite some time. Would it help? I don't know, but I'd like to try it. It may lower the "outings" from newbs entering the forum. I'm with Rumpfy in that I'm all for finding on the cheap for this hobby too and "outing" has certainly hindered a few of my scores or they've been lost all together.

If you're really that eager to help your fellow vrc'er with something that only you have found, then dig a little deeper like we have been doing, find the vrc'er who needs that item and send them a pm. In your pm don't forget to let them know that you want some love on the board for your humanitarian deed.


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## CougarTrek (Jan 27, 2007)

YETIFIED said:


> When it all comes down to the bottom line on "outing" here on the vrc board is, the "outer" is simply looking for kudos or pat on the back for being the hipster for "finding" the rare, super cool, smokin' deal that one or several of us all ready know about. Example: Rumpfy's recent Klein Rascal score was already mine if I wanted it. It was a few minutes from my house. I know for a fact that everyone and their brother had already seen it, so there was no need to "out" it. Since I already have a '90 Rascal I decided to pass on it for a different little something and one of our own vrc'ers scooped it up, cool.
> 
> I've been pushing for a "read this on "outing" before you enter" for quite some time. Would it help? I don't know, but I'd like to try it. It may lower the "outings" from newbs entering the forum. I'm with Rumpfy in that I'm all for finding on the cheap for this hobby too and "outing" has certainly hindered a few of my scores or they've been lost all together.
> 
> If you're really that eager to help your fellow vrc'er with something that only you have found, then dig a little deeper like we have been doing, find the vrc'er who needs that item and send them a pm. In your pm don't forget to let them know that you want some love on the board for your humanitarian deed.


Agreed. I too spotted that Klein weeks ago. Had it been an XS (I want a rider, not wall art, so the size is unfortunately a requirement) it would have been mine. It's not that Rumpfy was the first to find it, but I wasn't about to potentially spoil someone else's find by outing it just because it wasn't the right size for me. I'm glad Rumpfy picked it up and is using it for it's intended purpose...well, at least the poor thing has knobby tires on it still!!!

I have nationwide craigslist searches that I run periodically. I still haven't found what I'm looking for (actually missed a great Attitude by a few hours, *sigh*), but I prefer to search and find myself (unless someone here wants to give me some insider info, which I have gotten and been thankful for though the match wasn't quite right). It just wouldn't feel right to me buying something VRC (that I should have to work for) because I found an "outing" post somewhere...that ruins the fun!

I think new bikes and parts are slightly different though I'd still be upset if I was in negotiations with someone only to have it ruined by an "outing" post and a subsequent offer from someone that would have never found it. Perhaps this is because even the most common frames are almost impossible to find in my size...


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

I hate outing and like many of you probably should spend more time on the trail and less time searching. But.....OK guys you got to admit when the shelves are full in the basement and your listing 20 like items and half of them show up on the eBay/marketplace watch and it drives up the bidding who wins? It only gives YOU more to spend on the next one. Also, There's no doubt in my mind that the current market prices would be much lower if the dollar weren't stronger. I send 80% of my stuff to Europe and that doesn't always make me happy but it does give me more to play with. I even shipped four pieces to Canada recently due to parity.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

-Anomie- said:


> As I stated in another thread, there are many techniques to getting a good deal, some of them not very obvious, and outing even a seemingly undesirable or silly auction can hose someone with an "angle" on getting it cheaply. If you find something that you think is ridiculous or good for a laugh, just wait till the auction ends to post it. It will still get a laugh (probably more so if it actually sold) and no one will give you a hard time.
> 
> That said, even for straight-up auctions I feel it should be the responsibility of the buyer to find the parts on their own. Like everyone else on this board, I figured out how to find the things I want the hard way. Paying your dues is part of the game and makes you a better player, but "outing" removes the need for any skill or experience.


Well said.


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Really awful.
> 
> Besides, FatMikey would be bummed.


Yeah that would suck Bushpig, don't leave me here all alone I'll wind up having to buy up all of the old Merlins and Fat Chances that were sold here to Yuppies in the 80's and 90s that are probably just sitting in apartment building bike rooms all over Manhattan!

Who needs to worry about Outing, I'll just ride around and ask the doormen of the fancy buildings where the old bikes are kept 

Plus I've officially given up on ever having a Fillet Brazed Steve Potts since they all wind up with Bushpig or in Europe anyway


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

A sticky on the perils of "Outing" could definitely assist the newbies from making a faux pas :nono: that blows a deal for an old pro/regular, but I think that most everyone here is pretty polite and respectful that we're all part of a goofy brotherhood (personhood? Are there many females here anyway?) and while we can all be envious :eekster: of the "latest cheap super score" or ticked off  about "the big one that got away" for whatever "Outing" related reason, I feel comfy knowing that if I'm really looking for something rare and I make it known, I have received PMs, E-mails AND even a phone call  once to alert me to what I was looking for, so if that's considered "Outing" it's also done in private if you're nice to people and there's always going to be a next time...

In the end of the day, as long as you've got your health and enough money to support your family, AS WELL AS your VRC MTB Hobby/Habit then it's still just a game and should be treated lightly, as the one with the most toys will probably win in the end, but we all hope in a secretly sick way that no one "Outs" the yard sale after the winner's funeral.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Doesn't bug me. Perhaps those who are so concerned about it, and really need things to remain cheap, should consider spending a bit less time searching, and working the deals, and spend a bit more time earning the money, so it wouldn't be such a concern in the first place 

I've certainly lost a few "finds" in my time, and I'm still drawing breath. Try finding stuff for bike that are more than 100 years old, if you think you guys have it tough. That said, I lost the first Pierce headbage I discovered, out bid by .50 darn cents (probably outed by a Wheelman member somewhere) :madman: Scored the next one though (8 months later...) and saved over $100. Ever consider that there just may be a reason you lost the one you did, and that it might work out in the end? :thumbsup:


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## Slimpee (Oct 3, 2007)

Maybe this should be stickied...


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

No one reads the sticky thats already up there already. There's a lot of good info and links in it.


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## Slimpee (Oct 3, 2007)

Rumpfy said:


> No one reads the sticky thats already up there already. There's a lot of good info and links in it.


I just read some of the stickies yesterday. It made me happy.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Doesn't bug me. Perhaps those who are so concerned about it, and really need things to remain cheap, should consider spending a bit less time searching, and working the deals, and spend a bit more time earning the money, so it wouldn't be such a concern in the first place
> 
> I've certainly lost a few "finds" in my time, and I'm still drawing breath. Try finding stuff for bike that are more than 100 years old, if you think you guys have it tough. That said, I lost the first Pierce headbage I discovered, out bid by .50 darn cents (probably outed by a Wheelman member somewhere) :madman: Scored the next one though (8 months later...) and saved over $100. Ever consider that there just may be a reason you lost the one you did, and that it might work out in the end? :thumbsup:


If you've already seen two Pierce headbadges in the last 8 months then thats much better than some of the stuff we look for.

Forking out huge sums of cash for stuff takes the game out of it. It'd be like hunting a deer with a nuke as opposed to a bow and arrow.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Rumpfy said:


> No one reads the sticky thats already up there already. There's a lot of good info and links in it.


Funny you should mention that, I just did this morning and had a great time of it. But I should confess, being a new person here, I glanced at it when I was less educated and it sort of overwhelmed me. But now, (and I'm not saying I know anything by a long shot) it made me smile because I've come across alot of that helpful information on my own by putting that Bridgestone together.

Got to say, you definitely need to help yourself by doing stuff yourself. Even if you make a heinous outing and get yelled at by a bunch of grown men, it is still a learning experience. (Thanks, Yetified  )


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Slimpee said:


> I just read some of the stickies yesterday. It made me happy.


Haha!

Good, it makes me happy that it made you happy.

It took me forever to get around to putting together that post...and a long time to write it...so I'm happy any time anyone glances at it.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Funny you should mention that, I just did this morning and had a great time of it. But I should confess, being a new person here, I glanced at it when I was less educated and it sort of overwhelmed me. But now, (and I'm not saying I know anything by a long shot) it made me smile because I've come across alot of that helpful information on my own by putting that Bridgestone together.
> 
> Got to say, you definitely need to help yourself by doing stuff yourself. Even if you make a heinous outing and get yelled at by a bunch of grown men, it is still a learning experience. (Thanks, Yetified  )


No doubt its a lot of info to process and filter. A lot of times its easier to post a new question, or in your excitement...'out' something. Sometimes there's really no other way to learn it. But with a tiny bit of effort, you can at least begin the education process.

The fire test is if can you roll with the punches from the regulars and jump right in. I think there is hardly a regular here who didn't go through this.

Seems like we should...actually...add this thread to the sticky under: "outting".


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Added to the sticky.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> If you've already seen two Pierce headbadges in the last 8 months then thats much better than some of the stuff we look for.
> 
> Forking out huge sums of cash for stuff takes the game out of it. It'd be like hunting a deer with a nuke as opposed to a bow and arrow.


I like to sneak up and kill them with my bare hands. :devil:


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## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

Here he comes from his latest score.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

gasp! wahhh!!!


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> No one reads the sticky thats already up there already. There's a lot of good info and links in it.


The two reasons are:

A. Because you wrote it.

B. It's waaaaay too much to read.:eekster:

It should be short and sweet like the post I wrote to SFgirlonbike.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

YETIFIED said:


> The two reasons are:
> 
> A. Because you wrote it.
> 
> ...


A. You ungrateful sonofab!tch.

B. I'm putting those True Temper decals on my tool box now.


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## YETIFIED (May 4, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> A. You ungrateful sonofab!tch.
> 
> B. I'm putting those True Temper decals on my tool box now.


..........................But, after reading through the entire sticky and all of the tremendous information that so enlightened me, I am forever changed for the betterment of society by the penning which was obviously done by a scholar whose wisdon is well beyond their years!

So do I still get the decals?


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## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

ckevlar said:


> Here he comes from his latest score.


rofl

That must be in Wisconsin, where everyone listens to their police scanner for word of an antlered vehicular homicide. By law the first one on the scene gets dibs on the road kill  .

edit: I just noticed the outline of upper peninsula Michigan. Not that the rules are any different there...


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## esilvassy (Jul 25, 2006)

I lived in the UP ( Michigan's upper peninsula for all the non-midwesterners out there) for a while and the rules were pretty much if you hit it you get it. You do have to call the police to report it, they write the report you get to take the deer home. I had a house mate in school
that had an old beat up 79 ford pickup that used to try and hit deer for this reason....


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

esilvassy said:


> I lived in the UP ( Michigan's upper peninsula for all the non-midwesterners out there) for a while and the rules were pretty much if you hit it you get it. You do have to call the police to report it, they write the report you get to take the deer home. I had a house mate in school
> that had an old beat up 79 ford pickup that used to try and hit deer for this reason....


Same here in Ohio. There are so many deer around, it's almost like pigeons in a city, or seagulls at a landfill. I think I'd run out of fingers and toes keeping count of all the road kill deer on the side of the road on my way to work.


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

Sorry guys, I know that we all hate "outers" and I hope that I don't blow anyone's local deal on this sWeeT a$$ ride:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/bik/704105489.html

I'd pick it up but it's just too cool for me :thumbsup:


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## Slimpee (Oct 3, 2007)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Sorry guys, I know that we all hate "outers" and I hope that I don't blow anyone's local deal on this sWeeT a$$ ride:
> 
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/bik/704105489.html
> 
> I'd pick it up but it's just too cool for me :thumbsup:


psssh, you can have one of those in Minneapolis for $20...


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## art23 (Jun 7, 2008)

Rumpfy said:


> I think this thread relates more to local CL outtings. Thats a bigger concern to me.
> I'm not too keen on eBay outting either...however bidding is open season. I don't think anyone has really said 'don't bid I want this'. I can think of several occasions where competing forum members have duked it out big time.
> Props to the guy finds the hidden auction or works the back door deal or pulls the quick 'buy it now'. Hustle hustle hustle.


Please define the term "outting" for me.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

art23 said:


> Please define the term "outting" for me.


if you ain't gonna buy it, don't post up a link to something you found for sale


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## art23 (Jun 7, 2008)

hollister said:


> if you ain't gonna buy it, don't post up a link to something you found for sale


But it's okay to inform my fellow enthusiasts here about a find _after i've purchased it_, yes?
Especially if I don't name the source?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

art23 said:


> But it's okay to inform my fellow enthusiasts here about a find _after i've purchased it_, yes?
> Especially if I don't name the source?


That is gloating and it is encouraged.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

bushpig said:


> That is gloating and it is encouraged.


Especially with attached photos. We are a very visual group.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

art23 said:


> But it's okay to inform my fellow enthusiasts here about a find _after i've purchased it_, yes?
> Especially if I don't name the source?


What Bush and Muddy said.

Throw it in everyones face.


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## art23 (Jun 7, 2008)

bushpig said:


> That is gloating and it is encouraged.


:lol: Excellent! :lol: 
I'm not above the occasional gloat! :ciappa:


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