# Foot hitting front tire while turning



## lil rider (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm new to this board , and to mtb'ing. I didn't see this topic in the FAQ section on bikes for short women. My husband got me an entry level bike.It's a 13" trek 3700. I'm 5' 1" and the bike fits pretty well. My PROBLEM is that when turning my shoe hits the front tire when my pedel passes the 9:00 position. My husband said I'm not positioning my foot on the pedel correctly (I don't have big feet - size 6) so He got some of those mini clips - the small ones with no straps so my foot would stay back correctly on the peddle. Quess what the front of the clip hits the pedel so it wasn't my fault. It's never our fault right girls.
What is the solution? When i'm turning very sharp should I stop pedeling and keep my pedels in the 12 and 6 oclock position. This works but often times I need to be pedeling through the turn. Is this always a problem on small frame bikes. Please Help


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## hamachi (May 9, 2006)

yeah, this is not your fault -- your bike has toe-overlap... short of getting a new fork with more rake, i do not how to remedy this situation

what fork are you using?


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

a longer fork would help, as it would place your front tire further ahead and slacken your head angle (which I always like, but that's my personal taste) - but the benefit might be minimal. a bigger frame would help, too (except that then the bike probably wouldn't fit you), as would a better designed frame (toe overlap is a common thing for most x-small frames)..

the best solution, i think, is to buy clipless pedals. they're a good investment anyway - they improve pedaling and keep your feet from slipping on the technical stuff, and will make sure your feet don't creep forward and make contact with your tire.

Ant


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Clipless pedals don't alwyas fix it, either. It has more to do with frame design than anything else. You can help in small ways by running a slightly smaller tire (but you could lose some ride quality), or by getting clipless pedals. However, some shoes have longer toeboxes than others and might have the same problem that clips and straps have. 

I have had bikes both with and without toe overlap and raced several cyclocross seasons on a bike with the worst toe overlap I had ever had, but it just isn't tooo big a deal. You don't have to throw the bike away. 

For what it is worth, I have noticed that companies who design bikes for short people specifically, or who have a history of having small riders on their race teams, have better small geometry. Examples would be Redline, who had to design bikes to fit Ann Grande-Knapp, and Orbea, whose builders have been making bikes for tiny little Spanish climbers for almost a century.

Cheers,
Carla


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

Unless you do something drastic like get a different bike it's not going away. So either you learn to live with it or get a different bike. As for a different bike I suspect that most 26" wheeled bikes that are small enough to fit you will have the same problem. So look at something custom and super expensive or a good quality 24" wheeled kids bike. Sorry kiddo


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

You don't have to get a super expensive bike. Redlines are't that pricey, and Orbea makes a basic model mtb frame. Also, Bianchi makes a pretty awesome line of small MTBs (that happen to be designed by a chica, yes, I know this is her last year) with no toe overlap. 

There are major manufacturers who build good small stuff at a reasonable price, just do the research. I am sure that there are others, but I am only naming the little bikes that I have personal experience with, in the smallest sizes they make. Looking for a a bike from a large manufacturer also increases your chances of finding a a nice used bike.

Custom is fun, but not always necessary.

Chuky


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## Vulcan (May 22, 2004)

If you realy want to fix the problem uou could try shorter crank arms in combination with a fork with greater rake.

If you are using discs, you could also switch over to a 24" front wheel.


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

chuky said:


> You don't have to get a super expensive bike. Redlines are't that pricey, and Orbea makes a basic model mtb frame. Also, Bianchi makes a pretty awesome line of small MTBs (that happen to be designed by a chica, yes, I know this is her last year) with no toe overlap.
> 
> There are major manufacturers who build good small stuff at a reasonable price, just do the research. I am sure that there are others, but I am only naming the little bikes that I have personal experience with, in the smallest sizes they make. Looking for a a bike from a large manufacturer also increases your chances of finding a a nice used bike.
> 
> ...


completely agree with Chucky. at 5'1" the OP is not unusually small. the particular frame she has lends itself to toe overlap, and unfortunately not much can be done to remedy that.

but recommending going with a pricy custom frame is overkill. custom, as Chucky eloquently says, is fun, but not necessary. should the OP decide to get a different bike, her best bet is to go and try out as many bikes as she can find to see which one fits her best (as we always recommend). and by fitting her best, one of the criteria should be minimal toe overlap.

also, i am pretty sure a "good quality 24" wheeled bike" is an oxymoron. or a figment of someone's imagination. most kids bikes (24" wheel bikes) are best used as boat anchors and nothing else.

as an aside: i am 5'1" (with a size 6 shoe) and experience minimal, if any toe overlap on any of my 5 bikes i regularly ride: Trek 8000 (13" wsd frame), Surly 1x1 (14" frame), Titus Racer X (custom frame), Bianchi Giro (49 cm roadie frame), and Trek 5200 (50 cm roadie frame). oh, and all my road bikes have 700c wheels too.

rt


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## lil rider (Jun 9, 2006)

*Toe overlap blues*

Thanks for the feedback. On the suggestion of a different fork, I don't understand how that would help. Shorter crank arms would help but I think I'll see if I can ride a 15" bike, I will probably need to change to a more upright stem to keep my seat to grip distance correct. My husband said a stem is a lot cheaper then shorter cranks. Is this a good solution. Any other ideas

Thank You


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Stripes, I think she means that she'll be trying a 15" over a 13" bike, and using a new stem to keep the tt length the same.. 

LR, a larger frame should help with the toe overlap, and your idea of getting a shorter stem to compensate for a longer top tube on the 15" frame is generally correct - just be sure to not sacrifice fit in order to avoid toe lap. IOW, buy the bike that fits, even if it means a 13" frame. RT made a good point when she wrote:

"go and try out as many bikes as she can find to see which one fits her best . . . .one of the criteria should be minimal toe overlap."

Ant


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## lil rider (Jun 9, 2006)

Antonio, Thats exactly what my thought was (going from 13" to 15" frame to eliminate toe overlap, then compensate for the longer top tube with a more upright or shorter stem). Why isn't this a good idea? You didn't like it at all Stripes. What am I missing in my thought process


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*How much overlap?*

That your reported complication seems to be rare I wonder at what is causing it. If it is a new bike I would go back to the shop and see what they have to say.
It isn't as if this is a bizarre bike. My son was on a 13 inch Trek 4500 (same geometry) until he reached age 13, 5"4" and size 9.5 shoes. He converted to clipless in the last 3 months. He never had any of the issues you describe. It has nothing to do with gender/design. Something else is going on here. If you have a size 14 foot then, bingo, we're done!
It is probably a combination of several things. My bet is that it is a complication of foot position. If you are using flats your foot is further forward than if you were using clipless pedals; the tendancy is to plant the foot on the pedal right under the ankle or near the arch. If you are using tennis shoes they may have too much stuff on the toe. If you are using clips perhaps they are too large for your foot. You might check the crank length and make sure it is the right size. All these points bring your foot forward and might cause the collision you describe.
As to another bike or size, I suggest that that is an unlikely, expensive, and probably unneccessary move unless you can get your bike shop to serve you well. The next size in Trek (4300) or Specialized (Rockhopper) is only .2 inches long and no change in head tub angle. Even Women's Specific designs don't add much at that frame size. This is all according to the published Geometry Specs. Your particular bike could be outside those specs. For example some forks have the wheel set forward .75 inch to accomodate design parameters. If the spec fork were not availible and one was used without this then the wheelbase would be shorter. I'm not saying that this is the cause but it should be looked into. A longer fork, say going from a 80 to a 100, will only give you less than .25 inches and it may throw off the geometry of the bike anyhow.
And finally, as to frame size, don't get too caught up in numbers. You have to get on the bike and be properly fit. Good luck.


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## lil rider (Jun 9, 2006)

This is getting a little confusing (geometry ,handling and all) i asked my husband to helpsince he bought me the bike in the first place. He checked the cranks and said they say 170mm. He said the the head angle of 70.5 deg was a little step for this size frame, 69.5 or 70 would have been better (but he thinks he knows everything). He also added that your comment about long top tube /short stem didn't make since to him because his buddies Gary Fisher Genisis frame is confgured this way and it works great. Stuck in the middle


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Where did you guys get the bike?*

With the excellent info you get here you are between us and your husband. If you can go back to the vendor, hopfully a local bike shop, then you are no longer in the middle.


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## lil rider (Jun 9, 2006)

*I'm about to give up*

Stripes,You seem to be a little more knowledgeable then my husband. but he bottom line I still don't know what to do. It's starting to be a problem between my husband and I. He's starting to get pissed off (you know, the old i gave you a gift and now you don't like it routine - you never like anything i give you b.s.) One thing to note (it was asked by someone in the beginners corner where I'm also tring to solve this problem) The question was is it the regular 13" frame or the womens 13" (the step through type) The bike is the women's step through. Does that really make a difference other then if i go to the next larger size the stand over height wouldn't be an issue.You can read the beginners corner board for all their input.


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## dh1 (Aug 28, 2004)

*the only thing that matters is how a bike "feels" to you*



lil rider said:


> Stripes,You seem to be a little more knowledgeable then my husband. but he bottom line I still don't know what to do. It's starting to be a problem between my husband and I. He's starting to get pissed off (you know, the old i gave you a gift and now you don't like it routine - you never like anything i give you b.s.) One thing to note (it was asked by someone in the beginners corner where I'm also tring to solve this problem) The question was is it the regular 13" frame or the womens 13" (the step through type) The bike is the women's step through. Does that really make a difference other then if i go to the next larger size the stand over height wouldn't be an issue.You can read the beginners corner board for all their input.


No offense to Stripes, but I don't completely buy into the logic about bike design. Saying the bike's handling will be compromised is a blanket statement that just can't be made. The handling of a bike is dependant on your Center of Gravity (c of g). and where the wheels are touching the ground. Somewhat with the fork's rake angle. Going with a taller frame and a shorter reach stem *may* be exactly the fix. So much of it depends on your height, weight, arm lenght, inseam, torso lenght, and even body build/physique. Really the logic about a shorter stem would also imply that you would F up your handling by going with risers instead of a flat bar or vice versa...it is based on preference and feel, just like the ability to move your saddle fore and aft in the seatpost.

A good example is that my bro and I are the same height, but he is about 50lbs heavier than I am. With every length measurement being equal other than waistline, he can handle a bike much better with a much more upright seating arragnement than mine. I personally like the longer reach of a longer top tube, longer stem. The same rigid bike for me, won't fit him quite right. Watching him ride my road bike is downright ugly. Again we are both 6'2" but he is a fattie. Consequently I don't like riding his bike either unless we are riding on sidewalks where I am more comfortable in an upright posture.

The only way to know for sure is to talk with a pro, get measured, and try a couple different bikes out.

Tell your BF/Husb that whatever bike you keep is the one he gave you (even if it isn't the one he originally gave you). I learned a long time ago not to fret when gifts get exchanged. Bikes are not one size fits all. Not all 5ft tall women will fit the same frame. I still think a shorter crank arm is the way to go...but that is just because it was my idea

Cheers
Dh1


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## Capt Tripps (Jan 19, 2005)

I would reccomend, Since you are in Denver, a great bike town, You take the bike, and your husband to the shop he / you bought it at, and ask them to Fit it to you, and make it right ,, It should be a no brainer from the shops prespective.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I get the mtb husband thing.*

What we are finding out is that the problem is mired in the relationship.

There is a self-sufficiency thing in male mountain bikers which can lead to a lack of flexibility in thinking about the sport and embarrassment when the limits have been reached. I have several coaches on my club, all of whom have skills but who come to different conclusions about what solves a problem. The advantage is that we get to see our solutions over time and we can come to terms with what works.
Another common modality is that the guy provides the bike and feels personally responsible for its' proper operation; any lack of facility is taken personally. It's a guy/machine thing. Adjunctively, the much less mechanically skilled gal always comes to him for solution, whether it is within his abilities or not. As you can see it is not always a great model. The tensions are bizarre. Sort of like teaching your significant other to drive.
One way to get out of this conundrum is to take the discussion to a point where you can say that it isn't his problem to solve but the shops. "honey, let's just take it back to the shop and let them deal with the problem. That's their job, anyhow, isn't it? You gave me a gift and you shouldn't have to bother with this sort of thing."


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## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

*maybe it's turning technique??*

I'm 4'10" and the toe-overlap on my 43cm Trek road bike is enough to have made me fall over a time or two. BUT it was while i wasn't paying attention and tried to get going after a stop sign not when I was actually executing a turn.

I went the spendy route on both my mtn bikes and there is some but mimimal toe-overlap on these bikes.

I have found tho - (and maybe I'm WAY off base here) that I really don't have toe-overlap issues while riding because I don't turn my wheel to turn - I lean my bike while i'm turning.

Even with sharp and tight switchbacks it's a "lean the bike" and not "turn the front wheel" to make the turn.

i got a cornering lesson from Lee McCormack (www.leelikesbikes.com) and if you live anywhere near Boulder it's well worth the $ to learn the cornering techniques he teaches. He also wrote a book - it's definitely a great read. http://www.leelikesbikes.com/mastering-mountain-bike-skills

it may not entirely solve your problem - but it will proably help. Plus i find having good technique when riding gives me more confidence.

good luck.

oh - and i would recommend looking into the shorter cranks option. I have 165s of my geared bike and 170s on my SingleSpeed (I like a longer lever when i'm standing)


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> What we are finding out is that the problem is mired in the relationship.
> 
> There is a self-sufficiency thing in male mountain bikers which can lead to a lack of flexibility in thinking about the sport and embarrassment when the limits have been reached. I have several coaches on my club, all of whom have skills but who come to different conclusions about what solves a problem. The advantage is that we get to see our solutions over time and we can come to terms with what works.
> Another common modality is that the guy provides the bike and feels personally responsible for its' proper operation; any lack of facility is taken personally. It's a guy/machine thing. Adjunctively, the much less mechanically skilled gal always comes to him for solution, whether it is within his abilities or not. As you can see it is not always a great model. The tensions are bizarre. Sort of like teaching your significant other to drive.
> One way to get out of this conundrum is to take the discussion to a point where you can say that it isn't his problem to solve but the shops. "honey, let's just take it back to the shop and let them deal with the problem. That's their job, anyhow, isn't it? You gave me a gift and you shouldn't have to bother with this sort of thing."


Classic! My wife thinks I can fix anything. She often offers me to her women firends "Oh your cell phone is broken, Let David fix that for you."


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

lil rider said:


> Stripes,You seem to be a little more knowledgeable then my husband. but he bottom line I still don't know what to do. It's starting to be a problem between my husband and I. He's starting to get pissed off (you know, the old i gave you a gift and now you don't like it routine - you never like anything i give you b.s.) One thing to note (it was asked by someone in the beginners corner where I'm also tring to solve this problem) The question was is it the regular 13" frame or the womens 13" (the step through type) The bike is the women's step through. Does that really make a difference other then if i go to the next larger size the stand over height wouldn't be an issue.You can read the beginners corner board for all their input.


lol, refer him to the FAQ section on buying the female a bike... rule #1 is to make sure it fits or get her a gift certificate!

I'd echo that you ask around for which bike shop knows their stuff about fitting, and see what they have to say.

Certainly tweaking or exchanging a gift for one that works is better than turning it into a very expensive clothese rack in your garage, right?


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## adimiro (Jan 11, 2006)

Was perusing the forum....along the line of clipless shoes, you can also try moving the the cleets forward (within the allowed range of the shoe) which brings the foot back. It's not a huge amount, but certainly a simple and cheap method.


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## namrita (Jun 1, 2005)

adimiro said:


> Was perusing the forum....along the line of clipless shoes, you can also try moving the the cleets forward (within the allowed range of the shoe) which brings the foot back. It's not a huge amount, but certainly a simple and cheap method.


be really careful with this. moving your cleats too far forward can cause your toes to start going numb. in my opinion, you're best off getting a professional bike fit. if you do it right, you can set up your current bike to fit you, or you may find out that you want a different size. at least the fit should tell you exactly what you need and take all this guesswork and subjectivity out..assuming you are working with someone reputable.

simple and cheap is not always a good solution. you don't want to compromise comfort and certainly don't want to get into chronic injuries. good luck--


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Sort of like teaching your significant other to drive.
> One way to get out of this conundrum is to take the discussion to a point where you can say that it isn't his problem to solve but the shops. "honey, let's just take it back to the shop and let them deal with the problem. That's their job, anyhow, isn't it? You gave me a gift and you shouldn't have to bother with this sort of thing."


Heh. It must depend on the guy. I'm guessing it's right in line with their willingness to go to the doctor before a limb appears to be falling off. Or their willingness to ask for directions.

My bike (or any bike that lives at our house) isn't allowed to go to the shop until we've spent hours in the garage cursing at it with various tools being thrown around and making whatever the problem is worse.

Okay, I'm exaggerating. He is a good mechanic (and has taught me a lot so I can do a good amount of it on my own), and generally fixes whatever the problem is, and I do appreciate it. But there have been times, where right from the start I knew it was a problem best solved by someone else. (the... "you're going to dismantle that very expensive and almost brand new fork and do what?") Chances of me convincing him of that = ZERO.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Has anyone noticed that*

the original poster has not responded?


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