# Why no custom aluminum?



## El Train (Apr 21, 2007)

Why doesn't anyone build with aluminum?


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

There isn't too much the custom builder can do with AL that the factory can't do better. Most builders use round tubing. The factories are using Hydro Formed parts to maximize strength and lower weight.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

There are some custom aluminum builders out there, but for the reasons CS2 stated there are never going to be a huge number. The part that the factory can't do even with all their abilities is design a frame around an individual, putting all that person's contact points in the right place relative to the wheels. A properly designed bike removes the need for a lot of technological wizardry. 
Primus Mootry, Alchemy, Rock Lobster, Ahrens and Spooky come to mind.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*No demand*

Aluminum is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as cheap and disposable, especially since carbon took over in the last decade or so as the weightweenie choice. Hence no demand for custom aluminum - almost nobody wants to spend the $ on something that is not steel or ti, which are thought (generally wrongly) to be "forever" materials.

-Walt


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## El Train (Apr 21, 2007)

Hmmm. I was thinking there was some technical barrier for a small builder like the heat treating process or something...

And demand wise, small volume alu non-custom frames like Canfield Yelli Screamy seem to be in high demand. Curious that no one is targeting this style with custom aluminum. 

If you were the only person doing custom alu maybe there would be enough demand if you really got some decent marketing going?


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## arly (Apr 20, 2005)

*more custom ALM frames*

You are correct that it requires a heat treatment oven. Least for most aluminum alloys used in frames. None the less, some are building custom frameset's and doing a great job in our book. Below is another we had Da Vince build for us, personally. This is might be our 6th custom 7000 series frame they've constructed for us. Ya I'm a dealer.



El Train said:


> Hmmm. I was thinking there was some technical barrier for a small builder like the heat treating process or something...
> 
> And demand wise, small volume alu non-custom frames like Canfield Yelli Screamy seem to be in high demand. Curious that no one is targeting this style with custom aluminum.
> 
> If you were the only person doing custom alu maybe there would be enough demand if you really got some decent marketing going?


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## kampgnar (Apr 13, 2007)

Rock Lobster and Frank the Welder (or whatever entity he builds for, spooky?) are two builders that work with custom aluminum.

as previously mentioned above...


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

kampgnar said:


> Rock Lobster and Frank the Welder (or whatever entity he builds for, spooky?) are two builders that work with custom aluminum.
> 
> as previously mentioned above...


Frank the Welder builds for Spooky, but I think he also does some contract work and a few on his own. Mickey (suspect device) would be the guy to ask.


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## gearwhine (Aug 20, 2009)

Samsara Cycles in Colorado does plenty of Aluminum road and mountain bikes. I know of two people with his aluminum bikes, but It seems he's been building a lot more steel as of recent. My buddy rides the green aluminum one in the following link.

Samsara Cycles


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## crudscraper (Nov 15, 2007)

Let's not forget Ventana. He's an aluminum wizard.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Chris Herting of 3D Racing (and previously Yeti) also has done custom AL for a long time.


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## Mr5150 (Dec 20, 2011)

Hmm...

Having given it some thought: folk who are into custom are looking for something that is not offered by factory guys. Be it Trek, Santa Cruz, Kona, Yeti, Ellesworth or Giant, et al. You want an Al bike? Plenty to choose from. Steel or Ti? Not so much. Sure, fit is a factor. But with so many choices in "off the rack" Al bikes there will be something that works. 

If I want a 26" steel HT I am almost forced into custom. Ti? Basically I have to go custom. Just how the market is.


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## Jon Richard (Dec 20, 2011)

Walt said:


> ...steel or ti, which are thought (generally wrongly) to be "forever" materials.
> 
> -Walt


Would you mind expanding upon this, I would be counted amongst those who wrongly perceive steel and ti as forever materials if that includes those who are of a mindset that steel and ti offer greater service life- yes Walt, I'm equally as misinformed on the topic of materials as I am geometry


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

El Train said:


> Hmmm. I was thinking there was some technical barrier for a small builder like the heat treating process or something...
> 
> And demand wise, small volume alu non-custom frames like Canfield Yelli Screamy seem to be in high demand. Curious that no one is targeting this style with custom aluminum.
> 
> If you were the only person doing custom alu maybe there would be enough demand if you really got some decent marketing going?


I've never heard of Canfield Yelli Screamy. Who are they? Small custom builder?


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## 3wfab (Aug 1, 2010)

its harder, hot and noisy

removes all the builders who don't weld.....which are the majority of builders


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## kampgnar (Apr 13, 2007)

3wfab said:


> its harder, hot and noisy


Outside of frame fabrication, generally working with aluminum can be the worst. Mystery material such as ancient cast pieces can be a nightmare. More care and work goes into aluminum than steel...mechanical cleaning, grounding consideration, no fusion tacks, pre-heat, post heat etc...

Assuming new tubes would be factory fresh, clean, and consistent they should be a joy to work with in comparison to fixing a crack in a boat prop or old porous oil pan. When things are going right with aluminum, it's very nice and easy to lay beads.

The AC buzz can be annoying especially when DC is your normal process. Takes me a few minutes to relax after jumping from DC.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

kampgnar said:


> Outside of frame fabrication, generally working with aluminum can be the worst. Mystery material such as ancient cast pieces can be a nightmare. More care and work goes into aluminum than steel...mechanical cleaning, grounding consideration, no fusion tacks, pre-heat, post heat etc...
> 
> Assuming new tubes would be factory fresh, clean, and consistent they should be a joy to work with in comparison to fixing a crack in a boat prop or old porous oil pan. When things are going right with aluminum, it's very nice and easy to lay beads.
> 
> The AC buzz can be annoying especially when DC is your normal process. Takes me a few minutes to relax after jumping from DC.


This is a great description of the process.

It has its own checklist of rules to follow or it just doesn't work.

The buzz to me is even more annoying than a leaky air compressor but like radio static, it doesn't bug everyone.


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## D45yth (Jan 30, 2009)

Nicolai are aluminium masters.
Siren will also make anything you want out of it too.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Aluminum frame shops or made-to-order domestically produced brands with custom options(off the top of my head);

3D
Rock Lobster
Primus Mootry
Ahrens
Gaulzetti
Co-Motion
Elite
Ventana
Commonwealth
Siren
LOW
Spooky
Frank The Welder
Tsunami
Jason Grove
Stoemper
Zen(subcontractor only)
Guerilla Gravity(DH startup).


working on it:
everyone.

Over the last 2 years I've fielded phone calls from nearly a dozen established frame builders with questions about building in aluminum. 

They say things like "I want to be able to afford a race team"(lug guy) to "I want to be able to build some frames my friends can afford"(carbon guy) or "I need to differentiate myself in what has become a murky marketplace of me-too with a product that represents an unparalleled dedication to performance and technology "(several new builders).


The guys at Fairing tell me that they have been getting an increasing number of inquiries as well. They have been very responsive to adding more 7005 tubes and components to their catalog. 
Raw material availability is an issue of supply and demand but with the entrance of Acel into the market with their experience in aluminum and small minimum order quantities small domestic builders will have the very best raw materials available to them on a drawn to order basis with short lead times and reasonable pricing. Acel is 100 miles down the river from our shop, we can drive down there and finalize tube specs in person. Coolest sh!t ever.

There has never been a better time to be in the aluminum bike market from my perspective and I sure hope that people who want to make bikes for a living can pick up the vibe, because it's a material that is back on the rise.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

Add Scott Quiring to that list, as he will still build you a Scandium frame if you want one.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Really?*

That doesn't make any sense to me. You're not paying for the materials when you're buying a custom frame, really - your typical $1500 custom steel frame only has $300-400 worth of materials, at most. The rest is mostly paying for the time and effort of the builder, as well as some overhead. Even if nice aluminum tubes were half the price, I'm not clear on how that would be a major driver of the cost.

Your other points all make good sense. I'd be curious to see a breakdown of how many custom Al bikes vs steel get built, but getting those numbers is probably impossible.

FWIW, I like being able to work with aluminum for non-bike stuff (tools, fixturing) and I think it's useful to be able to work with the material, but I've never really put much thought into building a bike. Might be fun to see what it's like, I'd love to see more examples posted here. So, all you aluminum guys, let's see your stuff!

-Walt



SuspectDevice said:


> They say things like "I want to be able to afford a race team"(lug guy) to "I want to be able to build some frames my friends can afford"(carbon guy) or "I need to differentiate myself in what has become a murky marketplace of me-too with a product that represents an unparalleled dedication to performance and technology "(several new builders).


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

According to the TV Alumaloy(spelling) and propane makes everyone a wizard of welding...

...scratch it with a brush, heat it, when it flows, weld away!

Yaaaaa, I'm a Big welder now!


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## El Train (Apr 21, 2007)

Mickey, that's the answer I felt was out there. Thank you. I asked because I was just thinking about the custom market in general, which I really don't know anything about. Just seems like there is a hole there. People seem to buy small-volume production alu frames so why not custom ones? 

Is there really that few builders TIG welding their frames? Meaning there are a lot more brazed? Didn't really know that either. All this thinking came about due to me wanting to go take the UBI building course....TIG. I run a small architectural metal shop and do lots of TIG, MIG, and SMAW. But then I started thinking about if I ever wanted to have a business doing frames, how the hell would I compete with the established steel guys? SO then I was thinking aluminum would be a better niche....


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

Walt,
I'm not sure where you are missing the "cost" thing from my last post.
Time is money- and when you aren't brazing or sanding or filing you save a lot of time!

Materials cost is on par- well, higher if you make all of your own machine parts. Add in $75 worth of electricity to bake a 7005 frame in your average oven or a minimum batch charge of nearly $900 for 6061 and the costs go up too.

I suppose I'm saying that t.i.g. in general is becoming more and more appealing to many builders heretofore limited to torches.
It's like the '80s all over again!


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## TacoMan (Apr 18, 2007)

For the builder that TIG welds parts/tubes together, steel is the simplest since there are many parts right off the shelf. For the builder who also custom machines all their parts, then aluminum would be easier. Fillet brazing steel is probably the most time consuming if all the joints are finished. Steel lugs, if using parts/kits off the shelf, is the easiest of them all once you have gone through the learning curve.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Misunderstood you*

I thought you were saying that the *material* is cheaper/faster/etc. I totally agree; TIG is the bomb regardless of what you're sticking together with it.

-Walt



SuspectDevice said:


> Walt,
> I'm not sure where you are missing the "cost" thing from my last post.
> Time is money- and when you aren't brazing or sanding or filing you save a lot of time!
> 
> ...


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

This is an interesting conversation...

I would think that a custom builder doing aluminum would really be able to fill an important niche, that of satisfying the desires of the racer(s) who wants a true custom fit, geometry and super light weight but don't necessarily want longevity.

I know that you can have custom carbon frames made by a few custom builders, but at an extreme premium. So why not have a beautiful, hand-made, lightweight aluminum frame built instead of dropping big cash on choose-from-three-sizes carbon.....or even bigger cash on custom carbon? It seems to make sense to me.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I love the ride of a lightweight steel bike, but I still lust after an OG Yeti A.R.C., Spooky Darkside or Paolo Salvagione's Easton aluminum frames.


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