# X Post: IRON HORSE IS NO MORE



## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=495542



ihateu said:


> This is how it ended:
> 
> I figured it was the right time to post this thread. First off, let it be know what I am about to say in this post is 100% true and can be backed up by articles released in many bicycle magazines as well as hands on experience. So I will also state that what I am saying here is not made up and I am leaving out many thing more things that would have you as a person and a rider disgusted .
> 
> ...


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## CaliforniaNicco (Oct 13, 2008)

****, I just bought my 7POINT, and I was loving it...To know that IH has gone out of business troubles me....What am I going to do about bearings? Frame maintenance?

Nothing...Cuz I can't do ****....

So, I'm gonna ride it till it breaks, and keep it in a glass case till is rots, cuz IH is beast...and thats how they roll....


--CaliforniaNicco


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

Sadly, this is no surprise to me.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

What is sad is that these types of business practices are the reason the economy is in the gutter.


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## Prettym1k3 (Oct 11, 2005)

No, the reason this happened is because a certain someone's family member owns the parent company to the bikes they sold, so they were getting hook-ups all along the way, and running all the independent shops right out of business.

I won't be buying anything from this company, EVER. Never have, and never will.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

Prettym1k3 said:


> No, the reason this happened is because a certain someone's family member owns the parent company to the bikes they sold, so they were getting hook-ups all along the way, and running all the independent shops right out of business.
> 
> I won't be buying anything from this company, EVER. Never have, and never will.


The shop I work at used to be an Iron Horse Prodigy dealer. This past season we bought a good 6 or 7 Sundays, along with a few WC framesets. We were doing alright until RS Cycle undercut us hard, selling Sundays for just about the same price we bought them for. We got screwed.

For those who don't know, RS Cycle is owned by the son of the man who owns Iron Horse's parent company.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*Um*

I just called Nick at RS as talked to him for a few minutes about some of the things that were said above. I asked him about the getting replacement bearing for the bikes and he said than they have an order coming in in the next few weeks, and if you wanted, you can order the suspension overhaul bearing kits directly through Enduro Seals and Bearing company for $39

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id55.html

He said as far as getting replacement linkages, they are on order, and will be in stock in a few weeks.

Yes, it is sad that this company went under, but that doesnt mean that all of us that have an IH are doomed to destruction. Yes, the warranty issue is big, but as far as overhauling the bike and finding replacement bearing for it, all hope is not lost. I just got mine yesterday in the mail, and am still super stoked about it.

Hope that helped relieve some worry about not being able to getting suspension overhaul kits and linkages.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

I'm sure that they would have told you that there were replacement parts etc regardless of whether or not they were actually available.


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

I dont care. 

I will continue to ride my 6point until the frame is un-ride-able. Which will be for a very long time. Then I will pick up another bike from another company that will go under a year after I buy the bran new frame. Its how my world works. 

Go get gnarly.


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## mfreak (Oct 26, 2008)

i blame sam hill or who ever rode for iron horse.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> I dont care.
> 
> I will continue to ride my 6point until the frame is un-ride-able. Which will be for a very long time. Then I will pick up another bike from another company that will go under a year after I buy the bran new frame. Its how my world works.
> 
> Go get gnarly.


Trust me man, there are so many other companies out there that have more durable frames than IH along with MUCH better warranties. You probably just haven't been lucky enough to own one of those bikes. While IH made some moderately durable bikes (due to them being gigantic heavy pieces of metal) they lacked quality in the majority of their line. The shop I worked at had more than one Maverick come in from 10 year old kids who barely weigh 100 pounds jumping off a curb and having the frame snap at the pivot. I know a lot of people don't like hearing that and they have their brand loyalty, and apparently the Sunday is/was "the coolest dh bike on the planet" because Sam Hill had one and they rode moderately well. But people really need to judge a bike company not by their high end product but by their low end product. If they can't make a good quality bike at a lower price level then chances are they aren't going to make that good of a bike at a higher price level.

Everyone was/is hopped up on DW link technology. And that's fine, Turner is now making DW link bikes that'll most likely be of much better quality. So is Pivot and Ibis.

I didn't buy an IH due to the fact that I didn't like the design, the design is rather smart and really does feel pretty good. I simply didn't have faith in the brand after seeing so many problems with their bikes. I feel bad to those that bought IH bikes and now are finding out this news, personally I could see it coming and I say good riddance.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/buyer-sought-for-iron-horse-as-parent-company-goes-bust-20613


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## Andrewpalooza (Dec 7, 2004)

Jayem said:


> What is sad is that these types of business practices are the reason the economy is in the gutter.


Quoted for truth.

It's sad how predictable the downfall of the old world order has been/will be.

RIP Iron Horse


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## milhouse (Jun 22, 2004)

Sad to see Iron Horse go. My first DH bike was a IH SGS and the price was right to get into the sport. It seemed like they had a lot of promise going from selling selling cheap bikes to better quality Sundays and having one of the best riders racing for IH spreading the word. Then it seemed like everyone had Sundays. Without knowing all the details it seemed like they could have made something of Iron Horse but then again sometimes growing too fast for a small company has huge consequences especially when the market does a huge downturn.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

dowst said:


> I'm sure that they would have told you that there were replacement parts etc regardless of whether or not they were actually available.


and i thought of that already. regardless, the bearing and suspension rebuilds are readily available through enduro


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

I will miss Iron Horse if they disappear. Can't say the same for RS.


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## ryan_daugherty (Oct 8, 2006)

Done! Until someone buys it, three cheers for Bikeradar. 

This sounds like a good thing.. overall.


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## Raptordude (Mar 30, 2004)

Am I supposed to be sad? I don't know, I do remember my friend throwing a fit when his Sunday linkage came loose every other run.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Bearings should be pretty easy to get from any bearing supplier.

Saw it coming though...


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

Prettym1k3 said:


> No, the reason this happened is because a certain someone's family member owns the parent company to the bikes they sold, so they were getting hook-ups all along the way, and running all the independent shops right out of business.
> 
> I won't be buying anything from this company, EVER. Never have, and never will.


Sounds like in-breading to me.:nono


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## unclekittykiller (Mar 1, 2006)

Jayem said:


> What is sad is that these types of business practices are the reason the economy is in the gutter.


This is only a fraction of the reason the economy is in the gutter. But this is not the forum for politics.


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

his dudeness said:


> Trust me man, there are so many other companies out there that have more durable frames than IH along with MUCH better warranties. You probably just haven't been lucky enough to own one of those bikes. While IH made some moderately durable bikes (due to them being gigantic heavy pieces of metal) they lacked quality in the majority of their line. The shop I worked at had more than one Maverick come in from 10 year old kids who barely weigh 100 pounds jumping off a curb and having the frame snap at the pivot. I know a lot of people don't like hearing that and they have their brand loyalty, and apparently the Sunday is/was "the coolest dh bike on the planet" because Sam Hill had one and they rode moderately well. But people really need to judge a bike company not by their high end product but by their low end product. If they can't make a good quality bike at a lower price level then chances are they aren't going to make that good of a bike at a higher price level.
> 
> Everyone was/is hopped up on DW link technology. And that's fine, Turner is now making DW link bikes that'll most likely be of much better quality. So is Pivot and Ibis.
> 
> I didn't buy an IH due to the fact that I didn't like the design, the design is rather smart and really does feel pretty good. I simply didn't have faith in the brand after seeing so many problems with their bikes. I feel bad to those that bought IH bikes and now are finding out this news, personally I could see it coming and I say good riddance.


So your telling me I should get a Demo? 

I am very satisfied with my 6point right now. Its the best feeling bike I have ridden to date (something about a 66HTA and a 13" BB on a 6inch bike makes me hard)

Now the paint on the other hand... Not so satisfied. Like most other IH frames the paint sucks. Its already rubbing off. Air Craft Stripper is in my near future.

Unlike most people out there, I went in buying my 6point frame knowing that IH was done for. I really couldnt care less.

All this still does not change the fact that the MKIII is the best feeling trail bike out there. To bad their chainstays go snap-o-roo.


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## Random Drivel (Oct 20, 2006)

Tim F. said:


> Sounds like in-breading to me.:nono


What does bread have to do with this thread?


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## THE RICK (Nov 20, 2007)

dowst said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=495542


that means i get to sell their booth!!!!!!


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## JDel (Sep 30, 2008)

mfreak said:


> i blame sam hill or who ever rode for iron horse.


Sam Hill's skills are to much for an Iron Horse..Around here they sell Iron Horses and Dicks and WalMart. I only usually see them on paved rodes or under the control of a thirteen year old. Either way it suxs that people will loose their income but I never saw Iron Horse bikes as a "top of line rig" or even worth buying..


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## cdburch (Apr 25, 2007)

JDel said:


> Sam Hill's skills are to much for an Iron Horse..Around here they sell Iron Horses and Dicks and WalMart. I only usually see them on paved rodes or under the control of a thirteen year old. Either way it suxs that people will loose their income but I never saw Iron Horse bikes as a "top of line rig" or even worth buying..


they had two separate lines. the "mart" line and the lbs line. the lbs stuff was really nice. too bad they let their "partner" sell them online for less than the wholesale cost to the dealers...


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## JDel (Sep 30, 2008)

cdburch said:


> they had two separate lines. the "mart" line and the lbs line. the lbs stuff was really nice. too bad they let their "partner" sell them online for less than the wholesale cost to the dealers...


This I did not know..But it doesnt change my opinion of the brand..Sure Giant sells bikes at walmarts and lbs's but they are a PROVEN company with tons of tech. into the bikes..Im sure that IH bikes did not with the simple fact that they are out of business which shows they were doing something wrong..Sure maybe they make or made great bikes but in my opinion they werent a real proven brand..Anyone can build a frame and throw parts at it but demand is the key success of a brand..


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## KillingtonVT (Apr 1, 2004)

dowst said:


> The shop I work at used to be an Iron Horse Prodigy dealer. This past season we bought a good 6 or 7 Sundays, along with a few WC framesets. We were doing alright until RS Cycle undercut us hard, selling Sundays for just about the same price we bought them for. We got screwed.
> 
> For those who don't know, RS Cycle is owned by the son of the man who owns Iron Horse's parent company.


We were a prodigy dealer as well and had the same issue... sweet huh???


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## jeng (Aug 12, 2005)

Did you read Will's link? The IH name has some value to someone. This is similar to when Riteway was having troubles back in 97. GT was in limbo for a while but GT/Riteway was purchased and now they're still making good bikes. IH will be back. But who knows in what form (i.e. department store bikes?).


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

Yeah no doubt the IH NAME will be back. But it could be anything. I'm expected it to be a department store brand. But I am willing to bet it will not be a player in the high end mountain biking world. Why would you invest in a name like that?


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## 4 Jaw Chuck (Oct 2, 2004)

A family run corporation run into the ground for immediate profit?

OMG such a thing has never happened before!

Tell me it isn't true!


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## splatman (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow that's retarded. 

Nevertheless, I'm still in love with my 7point, and have no plans to change.


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## psycoben (Feb 5, 2008)

boycott RS?


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

**** IH. seriously, they have the world's worst CS i have ever dealt with. I call in saying my shock mounts have ovalized and i want to see if i can get a new frame for cost/free/reduced price, or whatever. So, the guy i talked to tells me there is no way to help me out even though my bike was still under warranty at the time. Even if they were a company, they would never get another sales out of me.


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Djponee said:


> **** IH. seriously, they have the world's worst CS i have ever dealt with. I call in saying my shock mounts have ovalized and i want to see if i can get a new frame for cost/free/reduced price, or whatever. So, the guy i talked to tells me there is no way to help me out even though my bike was still under warranty at the time. Even if they were a company, they would never get another sales out of me.


Don't know what to tell you mate, I had a tiny crack on the downtube of my 6point. Couldn't tell if it was the paint or the frame. IH sent me a new frame out even before I sent them mine so I could keep riding and even let my change the size.


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

Djponee said:


> **** IH. seriously, they have the world's worst CS i have ever dealt with. I call in saying my shock mounts have ovalized and i want to see if i can get a new frame for cost/free/reduced price, or whatever. So, the guy i talked to tells me there is no way to help me out even though my bike was still under warranty at the time. Even if they were a company, they would never get another sales out of me.


I had two different occasions where I called them looking to PAY for parts and they couldn't or wouldn't help me out. The one exception was Ska Todd, who at one point was emailing me from Taiwan trying to hook me up while the home office was screwing me over and undermining his good faith attempts to help. Back then I said "never again," and I've never bought another product from them.


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## JDel (Sep 30, 2008)

Internet based business's have been the down fall of local economy's in every state for years..I live in PA but if i order something from ohio I dont have to pay the 6% PA sales tax nor the ohio tax..Major money can be lost without taxing people when they should be taxed..


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## cdburch (Apr 25, 2007)

JDel said:


> Internet based business's have been the down fall of local economy's in every state for years..I live in PA but if i order something from ohio I dont have to pay the 6% PA sales tax nor the ohio tax..Major money can be lost without taxing people when they should be taxed..


actually you are supposed to pay the pa tax. if the company doesn't collect it at the time of sale you are supposed to keep track and then pay it on your state tax returns...


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

JDel said:


> Internet based business's have been the down fall of local economy's in every state for years..I live in PA but if i order something from ohio I dont have to pay the 6% PA sales tax nor the ohio tax..Major money can be lost without taxing people when they should be taxed..


Completely and totally unrelated to this topic IMO. But also made me think... I order almost everything I buy for leisure activities (bikes, cars, electronics, etc) online. I assume others do the same thing. This would lead to a huge loss of revenue for the state


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## JDel (Sep 30, 2008)

cdburch said:


> actually you are supposed to pay the pa tax. if the company doesn't collect it at the time of sale you are supposed to keep track and then pay it on your state tax returns...


Well never new that..Thanx..I think u might not have to claim something like that if its under a certain amount..


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## JDel (Sep 30, 2008)

dascro said:


> Completely and totally unrelated to this topic IMO. But also made me think... I order almost everything I buy for leisure activities (bikes, cars, electronics, etc) online. I assume others do the same thing. This would lead to a huge loss of revenue for the state


Yea it wasnt at all The only time ive seen IH's for sale is the department stores or the net..It just got me thinking how much companies cost states in sale taxes every year..I personally think if this was "patrolled" more u would see more money coming into states and the US as a whole..


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> So your telling me I should get a Demo?
> 
> I am very satisfied with my 6point right now. Its the best feeling bike I have ridden to date (something about a 66HTA and a 13" BB on a 6inch bike makes me hard)
> 
> ...


Dude seriously, never in my post did I say that you or anyone should buy a Specialized so get over it already. You and I both know that there are plenty of other companies out there that make a better product, that is more reliable, and carries a better warranty than IH ever had. The shop I worked at had multiple warranty problems with IH and they were belligerently slow to respond to anything... Hows about waiting 3 months to get rear derailleur hangers and thru axles? I didn't work in a small mom and pop bike shop either man.When that 10 year old kid came in with the broken frame, IH didn't have any replacement frames for him... They didn't do anything to solve his problem (the bike was less than 2 months old by the way and still under warranty). My shop had to buy another bike out of their pocket and give it to the kid. Once again, IH did NOTHING for a customer that bought one of their products that fell well within the parameters of the warranty.

And give me a break about the MK3 being the best feeling trailbike in the world... That simply tells me that you haven't ridden enough bikes, or that you haven't ridden any good quality bikes.

Once again dude, don't judge a company by their high end product, judge a company by their low end product. If Boeing made a low end plane that had a tendency to always break down and crash and kill people would you honestly and truly feel safe and happy in a 747? Me thinks not. The bulk of bicycle consumers buy bikes that are under $1000. If you worked in a shop you would know this. If the majority of those price point bikes made by one manufacturer are garbage, then how do you expect the manufacturer to stay afloat? Shady business practices and weird family dealings aside, IH wasn't going to last because their low end product was garbage and they weren't doing anything about it to solve the problem on the production end nor rectify the problem with their customers.

I'm stoked that you dig your 6 point. It sounds like a great bike and I hope you have a lot of fun on it. The geometry and bb height sound like the bike would be incredibly fun to ride... and if it were made by a better company (or one that was still in existence) then I probably would have considered buying one.


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## Pete Maniaci (May 12, 2004)

*This is all good.*

IH is gone. We will see lots of B-tier companies dissappear during hard economic times. The industry is diluted with a bunch of manufacturers (actually vendors) who don't bring that much to the industry. Could IH make a good bike. Yeah...Sam's must have been pretty nice. I remember seeing an IH come in from the shop down the street. Most of their customers wouldn't take bikes back to them for repair. I noticed that the rear shock was loose. I went to grab a 5mm allen to tighten it and the shock hardware was all 3mm! WTF! Anyways, the bike industry will be healthier if a few of these B and C level brands go away. I am all for individuality and choice, but if you need to have a bike different than your buddies to be cool you could try building a fixie. I think some of the appeal of IH was that not everyone had one, and Sam. Then everyone got one cause they were cool. I still hear people raving about their IH even though another brand builds a bike just as cool, light, fast, and economically priced. If you gave IH your money, you were helping a LLC move money from one IH to the online retailer.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

his dudeness said:


> Once again dude, don't judge a company by their high end product, judge a company by their low end product.


How does that make any sense? I wouldn't buy a low end IH any more than I'd buy a low end bike from any one. I've owned 3 Ironhorse DW link bikes, and was not disappointed in any one of them (with the exception of the Sunday's paint). And yes, I've ridden enough other quality bikes to compare. I don't buy bikes based on the manufacturer's longevity (or my interpretation of the future), I buy bikes based on what's the best at the time I'm buying.

And it should be obvious, but not everyone has to agree on what the best feeling trailbike is. Apparently you don't like the MKIII, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. :nono:


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## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

his dudeness said:


> Once again dude, don't judge a company by their high end product, judge a company by their low end product. If Boeing made a low end plane that had a tendency to always break down and crash and kill people would you honestly and truly feel safe and happy in a 747? Me thinks not.


that's the most ridiculous statement i've heard this side of pinkbike.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

JDel said:


> This I did not know..But it doesnt change my opinion of the brand..Sure Giant sells bikes at walmarts and lbs's but they are a PROVEN company with tons of tech. into the bikes..Im sure that IH bikes did not with the simple fact that they are out of business which shows they were doing something wrong..Sure maybe they make or made great bikes but in my opinion they werent a real proven brand..Anyone can build a frame and throw parts at it but demand is the key success of a brand..


You are a riot - demand is the indicator of success? Where were you when IH couldn't make enough Sundays to go around?
Not to mention the fact that Maestro started out as last gen DW link. You talk like you own some boutique brand that really innovates.  
And sorry to break the news to you, but there's a recession going on, and there will be plenty of good companies going out of business. Just because someone can design a good bike does not mean they are well run, unfortunately.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

saturnine said:


> that's the most ridiculous statement i've heard this side of pinkbike.


Well the proof is kinda sorta in the pudding isn't it? If a bike company can't make a decent low end product how can they ever expect to make any money? By selling only high end product? Hahaha, there aren't enough Sunday's, 7 points, 6 points, or mk3's in existence that would bring enough profit to IH for them to stay afloat. And if they don't make any money off the low end product how do they pay to develop quality high end product? ALL major bike companies rely on their low end (otherwise known as bread and butter) bikes in order to make enough money to pay employees, keep the business intact, AND do enough R&D for their high end product. Bad low end translates into bad reputation and people don't want to buy low end, which of course translates into not enough money to pay employees, keep the business intact, or do enough R&D for their high end product.

Statistically, high end product makes up for less than 10% of a bicycle companies profits as well as a bike shops profits for that matter (maybe you should start reading Bicycle Retailer). This is generally how it works in ALL other industries. But then again you're super smart and you already knew that.

And BTW- please don't think that you're super cool because you post on the MTBR forum, this place is just as bad and lame as pinkbike.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> How does that make any sense? I wouldn't buy a low end IH any more than I'd buy a low end bike from any one. I've owned 3 Ironhorse DW link bikes, and was not disappointed in any one of them (with the exception of the Sunday's paint). And yes, I've ridden enough other quality bikes to compare. I don't buy bikes based on the manufacturer's longevity (or my interpretation of the future), I buy bikes based on what's the best at the time I'm buying.
> 
> And it should be obvious, but not everyone has to agree on what the best feeling trailbike is. Apparently you don't like the MKIII, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. :nono:


I'm not saying the MKIII is a terrible bike and that I hate it, but at the same time its a bit ridiculous to think that ANY one bike is better than a whole other field of bikes that comprise a particular niche in mountain biking. I just personally wouldn't buy it due to the numerous broken IH bikes that I've seen in my day that weren't abused at all.

And as far as my statement about low end bikes... read my post below. Basically if a company has a bad quality low end product then that company is going to get a bad rep and people aren't going to want to buy the low end product. Unless a company focuses ONLY on high end (like Ellsworth or Turner, etc.) it has to rely on the profits of the low end product in order to put enough money into R&D. Developing new high end product (or in IH's case, licensing the DW link) costs a lot of money, since almost all major bicycle manufacturers rely on low end product in order to make money they're kinda screwed if their low end product is of poor quality and gives the company a bad reputation since that significantly hurts their ability to make a profit and therefore develop a quality high end product.

Hope that clarification helps.


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

his dudeness said:


> I'm not saying the MKIII is a terrible bike and that I hate it, but at the same time its a bit ridiculous to think that ANY one bike is better than a whole other field of bikes that comprise a particular niche in mountain biking. I just personally wouldn't buy it due to the numerous broken IH bikes that I've seen in my day that weren't abused at all.
> 
> And as far as my statement about low end bikes... read my post below. Basically if a company has a bad quality low end product then that company is going to get a bad rep and people aren't going to want to buy the low end product. Unless a company focuses ONLY on high end (like Ellsworth or Turner, etc.) it has to rely on the profits of the low end product in order to put enough money into R&D. Developing new high end product (or in IH's case, licensing the DW link) costs a lot of money, since almost all major bicycle manufacturers rely on low end product in order to make money they're kinda screwed if their low end product is of poor quality and gives the company a bad reputation since that significantly hurts their ability to make a profit and therefore develop a quality high end product.
> 
> Hope that clarification helps.


I generally agree with you but what about Cannondale. Until 2008 the lowest end bike they made was the F5. Certainly not what I would consider low end.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

his dudeness said:


> Developing new high end product (or in IH's case, licensing the DW link) costs a lot of money, since almost all major bicycle manufacturers rely on low end product in order to make money they're kinda screwed if their low end product is of poor quality and gives the company a bad reputation since that significantly hurts their ability to make a profit and therefore develop a quality high end product.
> 
> Hope that clarification helps.


What you're neglecting here is - they did develop well designed, high end products, which people bought and loved. I'm not saying their business practice worked, but regardless of what happened to the company, they still made some good bikes, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I never rely too heavily on warranty, anyway.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

dbabuser said:


> What you're neglecting here is - they did develop well designed, high end products, which people bought and loved. I'm not saying their business practice worked, but regardless of what happened to the company, they still made some good bikes, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I never rely too heavily on warranty, anyway.


You are partially correct, but you forget that Dave Weagle was there doing A LOT of the work for them. look back to the SGS days, Dave Weagle was there helping them dial in pivot placement and frame geo. And the ONLY reason why the Sunday, 7 point, 6 point, mkIII, Azure lines were so good was due to the suspension system that Dave Weagle created and adapted to IH's frames. As soon as he parted ways with IH and their licensing agreement on the DW link started running out of time IH started making a pretty big downward spiral.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

dascro said:


> I generally agree with you but what about Cannondale. Until 2008 the lowest end bike they made was the F5. Certainly not what I would consider low end.


I don't know how long you have been riding, but Cannondale had a pretty strong low end for quite a while in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. 1995 for example had the F500 (I onwned one) as well as the F400, F300, F200, and I believe the F100. Then they had their line of M bikes... M800 (The beast of the East I believe) on down. These bikes didn't have the headshok but instead had what I believe is called the Pepperoni fork which was some clever name for a rigid fork. You also have to consider the fact that as a bicycle company they produce more than just mountain bikes. Cannondale produces comfort bikes and road bikes and also has a line of apparel and other gear. Regardless, in order to develop a high end product, they had to have the financial support from selling tons and tons and tons of low end product.


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## Big Mike (Oct 26, 2005)

> And the ONLY reason why the Sunday, 7 point, 6 point, mkIII, Azure lines were so good was due to the suspension system that Dave Weagle created and adapted to IH's frames


Remember the Outland VPP, or Karpiel Disco Volante?

Weagle did'nt create _anything_, he was inspired by older designs.

Is anyone really surprised about this development? It seems like its become common practice in this day and age for the executives of large companies to screw their employees and customers for their own personal financial gain.

Thanks for running the company into the ditch! Here's a 7 figure bonus for you! Good work! No repercussions for their actions. On the contrary, they reap huge financial rewards for doing things that regular folks like you and me would get fired for in a heartbeat.

Dowst, it sounds like you put a lot of heart and effort into your job and it was not appreciated. I'm sorry to hear it. Sounds like you, as a mere "employee", cared more about the business and the product than the folks who actually had a stake in it, and that is really sad. Good luck to you dude...


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dowst is not an IH employee dude.... he is just quoting.


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## dascro (Apr 1, 2007)

his dudeness said:


> I don't know how long you have been riding, but Cannondale had a pretty strong low end for quite a while in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. 1995 for example had the F500 (I onwned one) as well as the F400, F300, F200, and I believe the F100. Then they had their line of M bikes... M800 (The beast of the East I believe) on down. These bikes didn't have the headshok but instead had what I believe is called the Pepperoni fork which was some clever name for a rigid fork. You also have to consider the fact that as a bicycle company they produce more than just mountain bikes. Cannondale produces comfort bikes and road bikes and also has a line of apparel and other gear. Regardless, in order to develop a high end product, they had to have the financial support from selling tons and tons and tons of low end product.


Yeah I knew. One of the first bikes I remember is a "killer V" 500. My point was the F5 was the low end bike for a while, and was around 700$. I believe the F5 was called the f200 in years before 2008.

I guess I'm just wondering what we really mean by low end. Do we mean a 700$ bike like the F5, or comparable(there cost to get into cannondale has always been higher than giant IIRC), or do we mean something for around 250-300 such as some treks or giants that have seen at the LBS.


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## csermonet (Feb 2, 2009)

Yes, the original poster ihateu was the former employee.


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## dbabuser (Jan 5, 2004)

his dudeness said:


> You are partially correct, but you forget that Dave Weagle was there doing A LOT of the work for them.


Yeah, that's what they paid him for, just like any other company pays for engineering design work. The DW link is the only reason I ever bought an IH. If he would've been contracted by Trek, then I would've owned a few of those by now.

So Big Mike - does anybody actually create anything anymore by your definition? And what exactly is the difference, honestly? Obviously Outland didn't make the design work well enough. So if I create a cure for cancer that doesn't really work, do I still get the credit?


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

haha, by the looks of how many posts you have, i think you kinda like MTBR. or is that just some sort of decoy?:madman:


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## Big Mike (Oct 26, 2005)

My bad. It sort of sounded like his story the way it was presented.

It's sad no matter what. I've seen this sort of thing happen in the pool/spa industry as well. People see dollar signs and then in these times it seems honor and principle are easily forgotten. I'm sure no matter what the venue is, if enough money is involved then things have a chance of going astray if everyone involved is not on the same page...


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