# Really Tall Guy Geometry Adjustments



## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I finally realized even though I ride an XXL frame that is stretched out, the grip to ground height is only around a 1/2" higher than on a Large frame. I ride mostly on my pedals while riding trails or steep downhills. It's an awkward position which puts me more over my bars with my butt in the air like I'm on a road bike. I also not a great position for jumping or bunny hopping. To correct my position I trying a number of things. First step was to install a riser stem. Finding one that doesn't lengthen the step, rises, and fits a 35mm handle bar was not easy. If I went down to a 31.8mm handlebar, there would be more options. Anyway I found one. Because the fork clamp part is a little shorter, I could add some more spacers to raise it up a little more. Next is converting my 140mm Fox 36 to a 160mm. This will raise the front of my bike a little more and slack my bike out a little more. 
If that isn't enough, I'll try some new handlebars with a 35 or 40mm rise.

Here is some pictures of the new stem install. Once I convert my forks I'll give a report.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

It's great you had the steerer length to get that many spacers under the stem. But, why not just go straight to a 50mm rise bar (Burgtec Ride High)? I'm the same height as you and that seems more desirable than a tonne of spacers or slackening the head angle&#8230; or go the high rise bar _and_ spacers and make a heap of room. Keep in mind you've already shortened the reach with the stem spacers so a taller crown to axle fork will be an additional geo change.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, I agree, get some higher rise handlebars. Those in the picture look like 15mm rise.

I have 50mm rise Spank handlebars on my DJer, they're great. I also recently put steel Mone riser bars on my Krampus, they look sweet! (75mm rise). There's lots of good options out there. Renthal comes to mind too.









Oddmonē Bar — MONē


**State of the art steel handlebar** -Americano steel, bent in Colorado by oddity cycles -brazed in a van, by a dirtbag -clear powder coated -etched logos -full 4130, 25% lighter than other steel handlebars on this website and lighter than bars from companies ending in -urly -3” (75mm) rise,




www.monebikes.com


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

In a 35mm diameter there isn’t much choice. 40mm Renthal or 50mm Burgtec come to mind. But I wouldn’t be sticking with 35mm just for that stem; no offence intended.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

My Evil came with 35mm bars, I changed my stem to 31.8 so I could run 50mm rise bars. Also run about 30mm of stem spacers. XL frame and I have a 38" inseam, it's not perfect fit but it 'works'.









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## mpress (Jan 30, 2012)

IMHO… Raise the front with a high rise handlebar and stem, not by increasing the fork length. Not only will you slack out the head tube. You will also slack out the seat post which is more significant for us taller riders particularly when climbing. 


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## 3sigma (Jul 8, 2005)

I have been using the Josh Bryceland bar to help with the same problem:

50mm rise for a 35mm clamp


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

The new Hightower has a 20mm higher stack btw.

By adding spacers, increasing fork length, etc you end up losing a lot of effective reach. Which is probably the best compromise but still a compromise.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

The new stem is more than likely temporary (and I'm not stuck on 35mm either). I'm experimenting and I like to keep it cheap when I do that. I'm pretty balanced torso to leg wise. I'm a 36" inseam and my my wing span is barely my height. The effective reach is plenty on my XXL, so I have some wiggle room. I can move my seat a little forward too. I am looking to slack my 2018 HT which has a 67deg. HTA, and I want a little more travel. The longer fork (which is a cheap change as well) will achieve both of those changes, plus give me a little higher BB which will help reduce pedal strikes on my 175mm cranks. I'm going to ride it like this and think about my future handlebar options.
BTW, there is a company that makes an ajustable headset for various Santa Cruz bikes that will slack it 1.5 or 1.6 deg. more. It's the only one I've found that works with the SC press in HS. I'm sure it voids the warranty. I bought mine used, so I don't care. Another product I'm eying is an after market seat clamp for my RockShox Reverb that moves the seat forward even more effectively steepening the ST angle.
My local bike shop has a bunch of FOX 36 air springs that they pull out of new bikes, because the purchaser wanted longer travel forks right out the door. They just swap out the air spring. I picked up a used/new 160mm spring for $40.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Tall BMX'r said:


> BTW, there is a company that makes an ajustable headset for various Santa Cruz bikes that will slack it 1.5 or 1.6 deg. more.


That will lower the head tube.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> That will lower the head tube.


Effectively yes.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Effectively yes.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose?


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

There's a lot of gives and takes. If I do install and adjustable headset, I will drop my BB which can be compensated for by putting my flip chip in the high position. The HT height will not really be able to be raised, but the ground to grip would be where I could make it up. At least that is how I see it. I need to put various geo scenarios in AutoCAD and compare the changes.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

With everything going on, I'm now lost as to what the problem was originally.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

The problem is being really tall. A select few manufacturers have improved in the world of XXL bike frames, but it's still not as accommodating as it could be. They do have some fixed constraints such as wheel size and fork lengths. These constraints are what I'm trying to overcome. Should the BB be higher? Should they make forks with a longer steerer tube or longer stanchions, but only mid travel lengths? Longer wheelbases are a big help. Not great in tight turns and switchbacks, but more fitting 95% of the time. You also get more pedal strikes with a longer wheelbase. From a small frame to an XXL there is about a 5 1/2" difference in the wheelbase, but all the BB are the same height. And I have 175mm cranks. No adjustments by the manufacturers. The catch22 is, a higher BB and same fork length give a really tall person the 'Stink Bug' look in a standing position. Half way to an endo. More pressure on the front forks all the time, and even more pronounced on the steeps.
My older XXL frames were the same wheel base as a modern Medium frame. The head tubes and seat posts were extended very high. To create a longer reach, they just used a stem that projected the handlebars 5 to 6 inches forward. That's what I rode for years.
As I said, the XXL frame has come along ways, but still has room for improvement.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Maybe thinking about it all too much coz there’s a lot going on there. You do have some valid points though. But you can get lost in the weeds. Like I said, I’m the same size as you. I’d definitely go 50mm rise bars at some point in your experimentation (which is fun!) and maybe less spacers as you’ve taken a chunk of reach out with those. With modern geo, that bike is decently sized but nothing huge for someone your size. I would never touch 175mm cranks again. 165mm or 170mm on all my bikes and I can’t tell the difference aside from ground clearance. Not sure if the bike is new to you but the low BB and the low BB in the middle of a long wheelbase (specifically) is something you adjust to. One of the downsides of a long wheelbase bike but it can make some trail obstacles harder to navigate than shorter bikes. 

P.S The Josh Bryceland bars are the Burgtec ones I was referring to too. 35mm diameter. I wish you had a pair handy because I really think the change in bar rise from what you have to 50mm would immediately feel great to you.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

The stem spacers have more of an effect of reach reduction than you (might) realise. This is an interesting article. 








The right handlebar rise – all you need to know


Is front wheel traction getting you down? If so, it's time to think about your handlebar height. We experiment to find the perfect MTB bar height.




enduro-mtb.com





There are also calculators to show you but you'll be able to see just how much reach you've lost with the stack of spacers. At some point you're an entire size shorter.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm planning on lowering the stem when I eventually get new riser handlebars. What stem 35mm or 31.8mm? That will more than likely be dictated by the bars I settle on. The J Bryceland look like a fit, but where can I get them in the US? The 50mm rise Spank Spoon with Vibracore in 31.8mm look reasonably priced with good reviews.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You'll have a harder time finding high rise 35mm bars. I have both stems and bars lying around, but I'm about to divest of all my 35mm stuff.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I'm planning on lowering the stem when I eventually get new riser handlebars. What stem 35mm or 31.8mm? That will more than likely be dictated by the bars I settle on. The J Bryceland look like a fit, but where can I get them in the US? The 50mm rise Spank Spoon with Vibracore in 31.8mm look reasonably priced with good reviews.


You're right. Actually finding what you want is the bigger issue currently.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

What bike is it?

And since it’s an SC - have you looked into the cascade links for it? They usually slack the bike out when you put them in.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

It's a 2018 Hightower C. I've seen reviews on the Cascade link. They are not so positive.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I just finished my fork conversion from 140mm to 160mm. Converted a few full beer bottles to empty too. Installed just one volume token, adjusted the sag, and it's ready for a test ride tomorrow.
I like the look of the handlebars relative to the seat height. The bottom bracket only came up 3/8". The Head tube angle is now 66 deg.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Hmmm that seat tube angle doesn’t look so fun.

A 2018 model in XXL is only 505mm reach. You’ve probably lost 10mm plus of that with the spacers so that’s pretty short for a 6’7” guy. With reach, you really don’t understand how undersized your bikes have always been until you go bigger each time. My big bike is 535mm reach and that feels great. That’s an enduro bike and I don’t need quite that much length for trail riding. But at your height, I’d be trying to get that reach back. The bike is barely big enough for you/too small (in the opinion of this anonymous internet guy). 1255mm wheelbase ain’t anything big either. I’d call that short and nimble. 

Sorry, I’m not meaning to deliver that in a critical or unkind unkind way. Just a fellow tall guy who has realised how great a long reach is and how I was always riding bikes that are too small for me.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm sure there are newer bikes with more reach. The Specialized S6 is a little bigger. This was a slightly used bike I found after about 6 months of searching for the rare XXL. A local bike shop had only one new 2021 model Santa Cruz Hightower C for $8K. I paid $3,500. for mine. A good friend of mine manages a bike store and their brand is Trek. I could have got a new Aluminum framed Trek Fuel EX7 for about $3,500. That's the only mtb model they sell in an XXL size.


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## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

Wow, you got that bar level with the seat for a tall guy. I’ve never been able to do that. I’m tall and thin.

being so low in the cockpit is a benefit, especially if you slacked it. It keeps the steering much more stable. ESPECIALLY the climbs.

I did something similar as a “gag”, I overforked a bike and adjusted stack etc until I achieved something similar, but more over the top (HTA was 63!). The bike steered like a fish out of water, and no improvement while descending. I could loop out pretty easy.

being tall, my cg is high. Having a high cockpit is fine for the flat fireroads but any up and down, I want to be lower.

now, I just make sure I am as neutral as possible on the pedals so as to not carry my weight on the bars. Then I am GTG. And it doesn’t happen for me when the bar height matches the seat.

lastly, riser bars are my FIRST stop. Added benefit is you can roll them to adjust your reach too.VERYsmall adjustments or else you bork the rise and sweep, but you can still push a little, and it helps tremendously.

my most recent purchase I sized down due to being border on reach, and endedup with a 60mm riser on it. Now all is well and fits great.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Report:
Super happy with how the bike feels and rides. More comfortable on both the flats, and techie steeps. Feels more like my motocross bike used to feel. I like the extra pedal clearance and only had one pedal strike that I can remember. The slacker fork was noticeable on the steeps and climbs. As would be expected, more in control on the steeps and had to lean forward a little more on the climbs. I was able to move my seat a little forward which probably helped. I tend to get more pedal strikes climbing, but the 10mm higher BB gave me more confidence by clearing almost everything.
What's interesting is how my sag settings really changed. Because of the higher bars and longer forks, my body position has moved back on the bike. Less weight on the forks and more on the shock. I'm almost 20psi higher in the rear shock. The forks being 160mm now and only one token needed a little higher pressure too (8psi higher). I feel there is room for the bars to come up a little too.
Because I'm further back in the bike I'm definitely not going through my fork travel, and using more shock travel. This inadvertently has made the overall ride much less harsh. Easy on my wrists even on the steeps.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

Everyone shoot One UP an email and ask them to make a 35.0mm x 45-50mm rise bar!!


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

stiingya said:


> Everyone shoot One UP an email and ask them to make a 35.0mm x 45-50mm rise bar!!


Good idea. I've emailed them about it previously and would love some. I have them on one bike and they're great. I don't think companies realise how popular high rise 35mm bars will be.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Spank actually has a 35mm bar with 40mm and 60mm rise options. Good reviews and the price is right.








SPANK SPIKE 35 Vibrocore™ Bar


award-winning Vibrocore foam core provides vibration damping proven to reduce arm pump and hand-numbness CNC bending and extreme gradual taper (XGT) technology result in lighter, thinner wall increased strength and stiffness compared to conventional alloy bars shot-peening and anodizing enhances...




spank-ind.com





I do like my One UP composite pedals


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## malucky (Mar 7, 2015)

@Tall BMX'r

Good read! I did a similar build with my Tallboy 3 CC XXL in 2018. I got a lot of pushback from people, but they're not me, and as a Tall Clyde with 36inch inseam, I have different fit than the masses. I listened to the opinions, took them with a grain of salt and moved on. Unless the bike is actually custom made for you, you do what you need to do to make it fit.

My mods:

-lengthened the fork to 140mm
-slid the seat 8mm forward
-used a huge stack of spacers under the stem
-set the rear suspension to "low" position
-got a Renthal Fatbar Carbon Lite bar with 40mm rise

I can now easily clear sections that used to kill me, and generally have a more fun bike to ride. I did notice that I have to lean forward a bit on tight corners and on steep climbs, but that took literally 2 minutes of habit-retraining to get used to.

M


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

malucky said:


> @Tall BMX'r
> 
> Good read! I did a similar build with my Tallboy 3 CC XXL in 2018. I got a lot of pushback from people, but they're not me, and as a Tall Clyde with 36inch inseam, I have different fit than the masses. I listened to the opinions, took them with a grain of salt and moved on. Unless the bike is actually custom made for you, you do what you need to do to make it fit.
> 
> ...


Tall people problems.... sigh.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

How about a list of Tall People problems? 
I can only sit in bulkhead seats on airplanes. I can't fit in a regular seat! I don't fly much because of it. 
I have a full size Ford F-250, my head is right against the ceiling. The XLT version has too much padding in the seat and ceiling, so I don't fit. 
I walk into a shoe store and don't even look at the shoes. I just ask, " What do you have in a size 14 (US)?
Golf club fitting.. what a joke.
People got to start cleaning the tops of their refrigerators, they are disgusting..  
And... No I don't play basketball.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

malucky said:


> @Tall BMX'r
> 
> I did a similar build with my Tallboy 3 CC XXL in 2018. I got a lot of pushback from people, but they're not me, and as a Tall Clyde with 36inch inseam, I have different fit than the masses.


I'm 6'5" with a 36" inseam. The reason people were cautioning against raising the fork travel is because most riders that height already have their seat slammed forward on that gen Santa Cruz. That's partially why I sold my HTLT, the HTA wasn't slack enough and the STA was too slack. So bumping fork travel and slacking the STA couldn't be fixed by sliding the seat forward because it already was.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

OP you definitely need a bigger bike with modern geo. That seat angle when sagged puts you right on the back tire, something with a properly steep seat tube would do wonders for you. 

That being said, glad you’re able to at least make this one work for you in the meantime. 

Add transition to your list, they make properly sized XXLs. I’m 6’7 with a 36” inseam on a v2 sentinel, 170 fork, 30mm spacers under the stem, and going to a 60mm riser bar. Could probably have used the extra stack height that new Santa Cruz XXLs come with but they were $2k more for the same spec. 

The v2 sentinel is the best fitting and most fun bike I’ve ever ridden


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> OP you definitely need a bigger bike with modern geo. That seat angle when sagged puts you right on the back tire, something with a properly steep seat tube would do wonders for you.
> 
> That being said, glad you're able to at least make this one work for you in the meantime.
> 
> ...


2.5 inch longer wheel base is a lot. Always something better. That's what keeps us working.


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## malucky (Mar 7, 2015)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm 6'5" with a 36" inseam. The reason people were cautioning against raising the fork travel is because most riders that height already have their seat slammed forward on that gen Santa Cruz. That's partially why I sold my HTLT, the HTA wasn't slack enough and the STA was too slack. So bumping fork travel and slacking the STA couldn't be fixed by sliding the seat forward because it already was.


In my case, the seat has just enough room to move forward for my fit. It's right at the limit. Any more and I would almost certainly be looking at a different bike.

On my previous bike, I played around with longer cranks (180mm), low-stack shoes and low-profile pedals as well. The shoes weren't tough enough, and the thin pedals wore out too quick (100 or so miles).

If I could find reasonably priced, longer cranks (185mm) that were about as light as the 175mm XTR 9100 units I currently have, I'd be all over that. I could drop the seat, which in-effect moves it forward, and effectively raises the handlebars and shortens seat to bar reach.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

It would drop your seat in climbing position, but you'd probably experience more pedal strikes. I'm liking my slightly higher BB reducing my pedal strikes on the climbs. On the downhills I'm standing on my pedals 95% of the time. At that point I just want my seat dropped out of the way. The balance fore and aft is dictated by wear my grips are. Higher and back a little moves me more over my rear suspension. I'll lean more forward through the turns, but more back on the steeps and drops.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Bought some 31.8mm 80mm riser bars and a 31.8 stem from a local shop. They are good bars, but not anything special except for the rise. If it's too much, I have room to drop it by swapping spacers bottom to top. They are definitely above my seat now. I'll see how the bike climbs?








DEITY HIGHSIDE 760 HANDLEBAR /// 80mm RISE


The DEITY HIGHSIDE 760 Handlebar is an homage to style and skill! DEITY is honored to support some of the most stylish DJ / Slopestyle riders in our sport and we continue to push the limits of how design can influence performance. The DJ/ Slopestyle ready HIGHSIDE 760 handlebar is the perfect...



www.deitycomponents.com





















I think I need a longer front brake line. The 203mm caliper adapter and the higher bars have put it to the limit..


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Def looks tight.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> 2.5 inch longer wheel base is a lot. Always something better. That's what keeps us working.


I would even say the chainstays could be 10mm longer. 440mm is as short as I'd go, I prefer the 450mm on my hardtail

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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I just measured my wheel base and it's now an 1" longer now with the longer slacker forks. That's an improvement I hadn't really considered. Yes a longer chainstay would make sense. Again, they don't want to have to make too many molds. Same chainstay across the board is cheaper. That's why Santa Cruz bikes are so affordable....


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Report on the 80mm riser bars.... It's too much. I just rode one of my favorite flowy tech trails and I didn't feel in control with the bars that high. Just a little too much of an upright position. On the upside, trails that I felt were pretty steep, didn't feel steep with the high bars. I was still braking and skidding, but the upright position felt more comfortable. I dropped the stem 20mm (that's as far as I could go) by moving the spacers to above the stem. I'll try it at the lower height. Kind of regretting I bought the 80mm rise bars. See how it goes?


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

If you don’t like them just sell them! Could probably get back a decent amount of what you paid 

Where is that pic? Looks like oaks in OC 

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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> If you don't like them just sell them! Could probably get back a decent amount of what you paid
> 
> Where is that pic? Looks like oaks in OC
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's on the 'water tower' ridge above Calle Las Ramblas Trail Head in San Juan Capistrano. Over looks Dana Point Harbor. There are a lot of single tracts up there. Blue to Double Black trails and a bunch of fire roads.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> That's on the 'water tower' ridge above Calle Las Ramblas Trail Head in San Juan Capistrano. Over looks Dana Point Harbor. There are a lot of single tracts up there. Blue to Double Black trails and a bunch of fire roads.


Nice I've never ridden over there, sounds like I should try it though

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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

The bike shop I bought the 80mm riser bars from, let me swap them out with some 30mm riser bars. I put the spacers back below the stem to raise the stem all the way up. With the 30mm riser bars and the new stem which has a 5mm rise, it's puts it pretty much where my old bars were with the 20mm riser stem. I liked the ride and handling at that height. Much better that the 80mm real high riser bars. I still have the option to use the 20mm riser stem if I want to go up a little more.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

That 80 mm bar was way to much.........no adjustability!
Glad to see your LBS were able to exchange it for you!
I am in the same boat as you......
6' 7" 230# with a 36 inch in seam......the only thing is my wing span is 7 ft.
And yes I played basketball.........not any more......toooo old and body parts would fall off if I did!

Glad to see you got your bike to work for you!
I had the same issue with my bike build and had posted it........people were questioning the set up.......whatever!
I don't fit a typical mould.

I love my set up but it is definitely not conventional!
I spent months going through all the numbers but I know what I wanted and it was a mystery till I had finally built it up, with a few tweaks.
I did have the SC Hightower on the list but they were pretty pricey.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Dawgprimo said:


> That 80 mm bar was way to much.........no adjustability!
> Glad to see your LBS were able to exchange it for you!
> I am in the same boat as you......
> 6' 7" 230# with a 36 inch in seam......the only thing is my wing span is 7 ft.
> ...


There are a handful of us too tall guys out there, but not that many that ride mtb's. A few pros... at least one I know of Ben Cathro that is our height. He rides XXL custom frames that look to small for him too. I should email him about doing a video on frames and setup for really tall people. I bought my Hightower lightly used for 1/2 price. XXL frames are rare, but also not an easy sell either.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Report on the 80mm riser bars.... It's too much. I just rode one of my favorite flowy tech trails and I didn't feel in control with the bars that high. Just a little too much of an upright position. On the upside, trails that I felt were pretty steep, didn't feel steep with the high bars. I was still braking and skidding, but the upright position felt more comfortable. I dropped the stem 20mm (that's as far as I could go) by moving the spacers to above the stem. I'll try it at the lower height. Kind of regretting I bought the 80mm rise bars. See how it goes?
> View attachment 1944199
> View attachment 1944200


I have been using 50mm riser bars and 30-40mm of spacers to fit XL bikes going on 6-7 years now. You have to adjust your upper body positioning for climbing and cornering. It takes awhile, but eventually your body figures it out. They key to cornering is to lower your torso towards the bars and bend your elbows more, you keep the front tire weighted this way. I have no problems hauling ass and cornering on every kind of terrain. The high rise bars definitely help you attack downhill obstacles more aggressively.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

The big problem in my opinion is not all XL's are XL and neither are all XXL.
Then throw in all the different geometries and one measurement effects the others, so it is pretty dizzying checking the numbers and comparing.
On top of that since us bigger guys are on the upper scale to be able to fit on a big frame, if you can find one. We are pretty much stuck with a XL or a XXL to fit us all........
Then what works for one rider does not or may not work for the next.

On top of that I have only once in my life rode a rental bike once in XXL (at Poison Spider), to see how it felt but I preferred my own bike more. It was a Trek Fuel but is was very XCish......not my style. But it was interesting.
That was why I rode my 2008 XXL Turner RFX for 12 years till I built up my new ride....Knolly Warden.

Cheers,
Kevin

Here is a shot of my new ride.
No complaints so far.
Works for me!


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Dawgprimo said:


> The big problem in my opinion is not all XL's are XL and neither are all XXL.
> Then throw in all the different geometries and one measurement effects the others, so it is pretty dizzying checking the numbers and comparing.
> On top of that since us bigger guys are on the upper scale to be able to fit on a big frame, if you can find one. We are pretty much stuck with a XL or a XXL to fit us all........
> Then what works for one rider does not or may not work for the next.
> ...


Absolutely! For us tall guys, there's no choice but to learn a little about bike geometry and then ignore the sizing and compare bikes by their actual dimensions only. It's really common and a bit frustrating to read about someone's search for an XL or XXL when that specific bike was actually smaller than a L or XL in another make/mode/year. Bike stores often aren't great at guiding people through that either. Some of the issues of an inadequate reach measurement can actually be made worse by using stem/bars/spacer to get the stack you need. That said, once you have the bike, I'm all for experimenting with anything you can to try for a better fit. The vast majority of riders don't change anything and it's really fun and enlightening to try different components and experience how they change the ride characteristics. Some people also just prefer shorter bike even though they're really tall. Or an average reach and a high stack. Those people probably don't want to hear the 'your bike is too small comments' that I've even added to in this threat (sorry!). The reach on my smallest bike is 505mm and the longest is 535mm with a decent stem too. On the bigger, I'd happily go to 550mm reach. Both feel well sized for their application. But I do know that as I've gone bigger and bigger with bike sizing over the years, it's always been eye opening and (looking back) I've wondered how I ever felt the smaller bike was OK.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

I love that so many bikes have adjustable geo these days, especially the latest Specialized which are pretty wild in the number of sizes and geo settings available.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I rode today on a variety of trails. The handlebars felt just a little low on the steep descents, quick steering on the more up and down techy trails, and just low enough to not wheelie out on the max steep climbs. I did feel a little more over the fork in general, which made the ride a little more harsh. So I'm going install the extra riser stem I have to raise the bars just another 10mm. I'll just have to lean forward a little more on the max steep climbs


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

my xxl stumpy

685 stack 190 head tube. 38mm riser bars and uncut steerer
480 reach so i run a 70mm stem. otherwise bike is too short.
67.5 degree head tube angle is great for trails but quickly not up to pace for steep enduro stuff. but that wasnt in the bikes design target.

would be much nicer to change to. 50mm stem and 500 reach. i would like longer chainstays to match the longer reach.

175mm cranks are tough though on he knees and i want to try shorter. 
eg. making standing figure 8's in the garage will bring some knee pain. but im old and have arthritis.

recently been slamming the seat forward more and higher seat. and switching to high cadence pedalling seated. vs the stand and mash style from my hardtail days.

i would like to see a 700mm stack 510 reach 455 cs bike built in 29er w 35mm id 2.8" fr and 30mm 2.6" rr. medium steep seat tube design but from bb up so that seat height changes dont make drastic changes. vs say a trek remedy design where its kinked back so much. toss 66 degree hta on it with adjustable headset and flip chip like the stumpy evo.

basically a slightly steeper hta stumpy evo but with a much higher stack.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

This was posted on another site but I will have say is a pretty cool site!
Wish I had this when I was looking around.......

Geometry Geeks

A cool tool!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> my xxl stumpy
> 
> 685 stack 190 head tube. 38mm riser bars and uncut steerer
> 480 reach so i run a 70mm stem. otherwise bike is too short.
> ...


505 reach is too short IMO. I'm on a 521 reach and a 535 reach. After riding those two bikes and then demoing a bike with 505, it felt way too short and I was way too far over the front wheel

Agreed on the stack though, all XXL bikes should have 660+ stack at least

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> 505 reach is too short IMO. I'm on a 521 reach and a 535 reach. After riding those two bikes and then demoing a bike with 505, it felt way too short and I was way too far over the front wheel
> 
> Agreed on the stack though, all XXL bikes should have 660+ stack at least
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


its worth noting that 685 stack puts the front of the bike much further out than it would be on a 625mm stack bike of the same reach.

i dont know the exact numbers but someone probably has a calculator to compare the equivalent reach at the lower ie more common stack heights.

660 isnt enough stack for giants like myself. 6'6"

my bike needs at least 20mm more reach just to be equivalent to what i lhave now with a 70mm stem, then it could still be another 25mm in front of that again. so 525 maybe. but i want to keep weight on the front tire so its critical how much chain stay we have. which is why 63 degrees doesnt work for me at 700 stack and 525 reach.

on my bike the rear end already feels short. perhaps sporty would be another way to put it.

it would be wild to stretch the rear from 438 out to 455 ish and then have an adjustable chainstay to grow another 10mm

700 stack, 500 reach, 66.5 hta, 455-465 cs

someone cad that wheelbase please and find the fr rr weigh balance.

bike bike. but a big rider...


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> its worth noting that 685 stack puts the front of the bike much further out than it would be on a 625mm stack bike of the same reach.
> 
> i dont know the exact numbers but someone probably has a calculator to compare the equivalent reach at the lower ie more common stack heights.


Just have to calculate the hypotenuse to get the actual distance between the BB and top of the head tube.

I agree with the importance of stack. Us tall guys need to start with stack then look at reach if we want to avoid jumping through hoops to get the bars to the desired height.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> Just have to calculate the hypotenuse to get the actual distance between the BB and top of the head tube.
> 
> I agree with the importance of stack. Us tall guys need to start with stack then look at reach if we want to avoid jumping through hoops to get the bars to the desired height.


You mean before we start pissing money away


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

for a 64 degree hta bike. the front center added onto reach is an additional half of the increase in stack height

640 stack 500 reach puts the front tire the same place as 685 stack with 477.5 reach. 

over forking will increase stack a little but slacken the bike also. moving the front tire out and making the bike feel bigger. something us clydes need badly.

im lucky to have a 685 stack bike as i am already starting off from a good place. getting the bars up where i need them, but also having that extra front center to add to the reach for a long upper body.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm surprised more people don't ride one of these.

Nicolai-ION-G1-29 Tech_Sheet-2019 - Google Drive

549 reach, I could use about 20mm more at my 6'7, but it's the best fitting bike I've had.

The xl pole was about 535, the worst of both worlds. 
Too long to ride like a bmx, too short to ride like an enduro bike.

This is long enough to really get over the front and make the bike move.

I've put a 190mm fork on, a few spacers and a 63mm stem to allow me to weight the front.










The seat stay mutators let you choose the seat angle, useful with these legs!


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

they make some ba bikes!

cant honestly be a good design for tall people w such a short stack...

63 hta
624 stack. did i read that correctly from the link?


from the photo the handlebars look down around your waist?

for a full mach chicken downhill bike, its probably the best you have ridden. but it could be much better.

imo. for comparison, check the wc downhill rider pictures where they are standing next to their bikes. bars up at chest level. (factor in the long travel of course)


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Fuse6F said:


> its worth noting that 685 stack puts the front of the bike much further out than it would be on a 625mm stack bike of the same reach.
> 
> i dont know the exact numbers but someone probably has a calculator to compare the equivalent reach at the lower ie more common stack heights.
> 
> ...


I've already started a file. I'm going to make the frames in blocks and an adjustable movable person on it. I'm going to take profile pictures of me on my bike, and scale them into CAD.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> they make some ba bikes!
> 
> cant honestly be a good design for tall people w such a short stack...
> 
> ...


Yeah 549mm reach with that stack is a hypotenuse of 831mm. That's 11mm short of my XXL Megatower with 515mm reach and 666mm of stack.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> Yeah 549mm reach with that stack is a hypotenuse of 831mm. That's 11mm short of my XXL Megatower with 515mm reach and 666mm of stack.


i believe that
624 stack at 63 degrees is 318mm
666 stack at 65 degrees is 310mm
549 + 318 = 867mm
515 + 310 = 825mm

so the nic has the axle 42mm more in front of the rider.

someone please check my work.
this type of calculation seems comparable bike to bike.

note: santacruz lists the mega fc at 860
i assume santa cruz is smart enough to factor in the center of the head tube, bbd and fork offset in their calculations. making up the difference in the published number.

the rider on the nic is running a dual crown fork so not sure what additional bar height is there

i personally dont want a low stack height on my bike.
but i do want a balanced bike.

the nic looks like a great super steep mtn terrain bike. with the slack hta and huge fc.

can we hear more about that bike?


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Fuse6F said:


> can we hear more about that bike?


Happy to =)

Don't be deceived, it looks like a DH bike, but it's not.

In proportion to body weight it's lighter than wifey's carbon wheeled 110mm trail bike.

It can absolutely shred the DH, but it's a brilliant technical climber and fast on the flats.

I seem to use different metrics to you guys for giant bike fit.

The main ones I check are:

Is there enough bike behind me so I don't loop out on climbs?

Is there enough bike in front of me so I can ride weight forward and race the thing?

Can I sit on the seat?

So chainstays and wheelbase are the primary, seat angle secondary (as slight adjustment with rails and seats).

Everything else can be sorted by swapping parts.

Stack isn't really important. If you can't get the front high enough with 80mm rise bars then you are a lot taller than me.

Until I finally got a long bike, I couldn't get over the front, and didn't realise what I was missing.

The 535 reach pole was just too small, it didn't work.

I couldn't get far enough forwards without making the front end unstable. I didn't realise this until I got the G1. To me the Pole felt too big, until I got a bigger bike =)

Unless the data is way off that megatower is more like a medium G1. This is not a small bike!

You can use 'mutators' to set what height bb, chainstay length and seat angle.
You can chose two leverage curves, and fit a selection of shock sizes for more fine tuning.
If you don't like any of the stock sizes (there are about 300 size combinations stock) they will make you the components you want.

I don't get why people want 'just' a tall bike. If the bike is taller you need it to be longer front and rear or it will be unstable.

The slack head angle on this is amazing, I've never ridden a bike that corners like it. Slight lean and the bike dives into a solid carve

I've had to stack up the front unsurprisingly.
The fork is a dorado set at 170-200. I've fitted external travel adjust.

The seat stay mutator is 15mm steepening the seat angle and lifting the bb a tad from xxl 'stock'

Shock is 230x70 giving 190mm of travel in the high position (and 210 in low). Due to my height the travel is controllable. We might as well take advantage of the perks of the tall.

I use a 18 degree sweep bar pointed up to give better control when the bike is leant over.

Fork is set full high with about 30mm spacers.

It's fun to lean.

EFIT: Changed grammar from awful to poor.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

CaveGiant said:


> Stack isn't really important. If you can't get the front high enough with 80mm rise bars then you are a lot taller than me.
> 
> I don't get why people want 'just' a tall bike. If the bike is taller you need it to be longer front and rear or it will be unstable.


I don't want to use 80mm rise bars. There's not as many options, they rotate easier, and they don't look as good. Plus, there's no need to if your stack height is appropriately high.

I need my bars to be a certain height above the BB so it makes since to get sufficient stack height first and foremost. Also reach means little on it's own. Reach and stack are just XY Cartesian coordinates to locate the top of the head tube. The top of the headtube is just an arbitrary but agreed up location along the steering axis. If you could magically slide your headtube along the steering axis you'd see that as you slide it down the reach increases and the stack decreases, yet your steering axis and handlebars are in the same location (ie you're bike isn't getting longer).

Also, I'm 6'5" and I've even contemplated going to a slightly smaller trail bike than my XXL Tallboy. I've found the point where I don't need anything bigger. On tighter trails I could benefit from something slightly shorter so the handling is more nimble. I come from a BMX background. At normal singletrack speed I don't need more than the typical wheelbase of a of modern large size bike.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I think we may prioritise things slightly differently. 

I prioritise the chainstays and wheelbase as they are very difficult to change once you have the bike (unless you have a G1). 

I'm not saying stack is irrelevant, it's just not as important as having the bike length proportional to your size. 

If the bike gets taller, it needs to get longer or the balance will be wrong. 

Using the mega tower as an example. 

The rear centre stays the same length on all sizes. 

That means that the larger sizes will loop out at a shallower angle than the smaller sizes. A smaller person on a proportionally smaller size can pedal up a steeper slope and stay in balance. 

That's just sloppy, especially for such an expensive bike. I'd assume its to keep carbon mould costs down. 

The rear centre is similar to that of a G1 medium. 
So operating under the assumption that the G1 stays are proportional (they can choose any length, so seems reasonable) then the mega is only optimised at a medium. 

I can understand fixing the chainstay length, but you can alter rear centre with fixed chainstays. 

I'm kind of rambling now, so to sum up. 

Surely everything (that can be) should be proportionally increased with size. 

Why do little people need different ratios than us?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

The Megatower has a 10mm chainstay flip chip and feels pretty balanced at 445mm. If the bike was slacker I'd want a longer chainstay. I agree bikes should feel balanced.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Here is where I'm starting with the human / bike overlay. The robot figure is spot on with my body dimensions. I will recreate my bike exactly and put robo dude on it. My weight on the bike is lowering the BB so the BB don't quit line up with the picture. Plus the wide-angle lens distortion. It's just a reference to get Robo Dude in the same position as I am.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Wow that picture really puts into perspective how small bikes are under guys our height. That thing looks tiny 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Here is me sitting on my XXL StingRay


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

thanks for sharing!

the chainstays were so short on my 2016 fuse that the rear of my shoe lined up with the rear axle. wheelied something fierce in tight rooty trails. which was fun. but couldnt climb out of bed!

your santa cruz is way to small. sorry. it just is.

i know my stumpy is too small also, but at least the stack feels great. i can feel the front weight bias change when dragging the rear brake. it helps to plant the front end for more traction. so yes more front end that i can get over is good but not without more rear end to actually weight it. i dont want to use my hands to transfer weight though thats what the brake trick does. the weight should go through the feet. 

id like a nicolai but not at 63 hta. 66/66.5 maybe.

dont need 200mm dorado up front but i get the fact that 200mm on a 6'7" guy is like 140 to a mere mortal. a 38 fox at 170mm would be the ticket. but i think going full dorado you bypass all the crap and get the strength and full custom damper tune you need.

so id want to try that bike and see what happens. it would be a blast!

man it would be cool if nic would design a trail machine for us big guys.

there was a guy selling a full custom framed gg bike on pinkbike. that was pretty close to what id want. gone now or id link it.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I've been thinking about fabricating a new swingarm for my bike. I teach at a Community College in the Technology dept. We have pretty high tech welding and CNC divisions. I'll have to talk to one of the welding instructors to see if they can make me a custom swing arm with a much longer chainstay. Maybe Aluminum? I can order most of the parts online. I've done a few Carbon Fiber layups myself before, so that's a little more complicated option. Beats getting a new frame, and closer to a bike that fits and I could move my saddle back further. My HTA is 66 right now, and I notice it flop on the climbs. Specially with lower front tire pressure. There is a company that makes adjustable headsets for the Santa Cruz IS headsets. It can go about another 1.4 deg. Not sure I'd want to? Slack-R


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

No-one needs a dorado, it's a hobby, it's about more fun/less fun.

I like the bars quite high, I could do it with spacers or with a bigger fork. The fork gives other benefits too.

The G1 stock spec is 160 front and rear, it pedals great.

If you want shorter travel then they also make the saturn, there is a bike park reinforced version of it too.

If I'd known about it when buying the G1 that might have been my choice, I'm glad I didn't because the G1 is great.

Imo the slacker the bike the more fun it gets, I've never seen the point of steep at the front. Slack angles roll more efficiently and corner better. 
The only perk of a steep angle is if you run a floppy single crown, but with a proper fork it's a win win to me =)

That santa cruz looks tiny, but so did my wfo. 
I just rode it like a bmx, it was really fun.

A bike has to be really long to be ridden over the front, going half way gives the worst of both worlds


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## Tjaard (Aug 17, 2007)

I think the problem with many of these discussions of mods for tall people, is that _all_ the comments are right.
If a bike is too small, most of the modifications will have a negative as well as a positive effect, so we end up arguing about whether one or the other is better, because of which comprise each of us is more willing to make.

And I concur with the comments above, we need to include stack when we say " I need X mm reach". That kind of works for M and L frames in bike reviews.
But now that there are so many (even XL) bikes that have very long reaches, but still the same, low stacks, we need to include the stack, to be able apply the 0.5x stack difference modifier to the reaches we are comparing.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Each bike I've had has been better than the last. When I bought this SC Hightower XXL about 7 months ago, there were only three XXL's that I had even seen used, and only two new ones at a shop. In fact, I drove an hour to that shop to sit on one. Because of COVID, I had to wait in a line for about 20 minutes to get it the shop. Once in there, you feel compelled to get your business done quickly as to not hold up the line. There was a 2021 SC Hightower ($7,300.) and a 2021 SC Tallboy ($ 7,900.). No way I could afford those but I sat on them and they both felt huge compared to anything I'd been on before. The 'Huge' feel had me sold, so I was in search of a used XXL SC. I found an older XXL Tallboy on CL for about $4,500. range, but that was too high for that bike. Good friends of ours manages a bike shop that is a Trek dealer. He could order me a 2022 Trek Fuel 7 Aluminum in XXL for around $3,500. None of shops I called had an XXL to sit on and I would still be waiting for it. They said November! Maybe...
Finally two more SC XXL's showed up on CL. A 2019 Tallboy with a Trust fork for $4K and an orange 2018 Hightower with a FOX 36 fork for $3,500. I drove 6 hrs total to get the HT. Looking at me sitting on it now does make it look small (which it is for me), but it doesn't feel that small when I ride it. It's not perfect, but it's miles better than any bike I've had. I still have a blast riding it.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

so i looked into downhill bikes a bit and dual crown forks. eg. morc 40 etc.
looks like these bikes are ridden by kids mostly so they build the forks up for shorter people.
this is why the xxl g1 has a short stack! fork length limiting the stack height!

our job then as monsters is to pile on huge stack increasing direct mount stems and bars.

given the 63 degree hta, this effective reach is coming back by more than half of the increase in stack.

i have 685 stack plus uncut steerer 30mm ish plus a 38mm riser bar. so 715mm stack for normal rider frame and bars.

715-624 = 90mm ish. div by 2 = 45mm less reach on a g1 if i were to set it up bars slightly less than seat.

something to think about!


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Each bike I've had has been better than the last. When I bought this SC Hightower XXL about 7 months ago, there were only three XXL's that I had even seen used, and only two new ones at a shop. In fact, I drove an hour to that shop to sit on one. Because of COVID, I had to wait in a line for about 20 minutes to get it the shop. Once in there, you feel compelled to get your business done quickly as to not hold up the line. There was a 2021 SC Hightower ($7,300.) and a 2021 SC Tallboy ($ 7,900.). No way I could afford those but I sat on them and they both felt huge compared to anything I'd been on before. The 'Huge' feel had me sold, so I was in search of a used XXL SC. I found an older XXL Tallboy on CL for about $4,500. range, but that was too high for that bike. Good friends of ours manages a bike shop that is a Trek dealer. He could order me a 2022 Trek Fuel 7 Aluminum in XXL for around $3,500. None of shops I called had an XXL to sit on and I would still be waiting for it. They said November! Maybe...
> Finally two more SC XXL's showed up on CL. A 2019 Tallboy with a Trust fork for $4K and an orange 2018 Hightower with a FOX 36 fork for $3,500. I drove 6 hrs total to get the HT. Looking at me sitting on it now does make it look small (which it is for me), but it doesn't feel that small when I ride it. It's not perfect, but it's miles better than any bike I've had. I still have a blast riding it.


i too drove all over the place looking for an xxl frame. they are hard to come by. lucky to have what i have.

canyon strive, slash, megatower appear the only new bikes that look like they have something to offer us big guys. i havent sat on any of these bikes, so we will see when the time comes how they fit.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Fuse6F said:


> so i looked into downhill bikes a bit and dual crown forks. eg. morc 40 etc.
> looks like these bikes are ridden by kids mostly so they build the forks up for shorter people.


You've lost me, what are you saying?


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

CaveGiant said:


> You've lost me, what are you saying?


fork design must accommodate short riders at that travel
you cant cut the fork tubes off, so there is a min/max stack limit to the frame design

agreed, super tall dh riders can just add direct mount spacers onto the bike to bring the stack height up


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Fuse6F said:


> how does a dual crown fox 49 fork fit into a bike with a stack of 686mm and 190mm head tube?
> 
> why is there no fork to fit that application?


Save me looking up the data. 
Are you saying a headtube of 190 won't fit between the crowns or that the stack is too low to fit a 200mm travel?


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

CaveGiant said:


> Save me looking up the data.
> Are you saying a headtube of 190 won't fit between the crowns or that the stack is too low to fit a 200mm travel?


fox fork is 91 to 150mm head tube length.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Ah, yeah the 150mm head tube on the G1 is tight on a dorado.

Minnar has a similar issue on his bike.

Nowt a few spacers won't fix =)


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/20884895/



another minnaar image.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I changed my stem to the 60mm - 20deg. riser stem I had. It raised my handlebars 10mm and extended my stem 15mm. My reach improved, the height is perfect, and I like the way it steers on both techie and steep trails. The Wake stem looks a little cheesy, specially with the 31.8 to 35mm adapter sleeve and graphics, but it works fine. Pretty happy the way it is right now.
















Stayed in control on some really steep S-turns.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Next my focus is on XXL frames with longer 'chainstays' or 'rear centers'. I just watched a video on current Pro DH bikes. These 5'8 tall riders are riding XL frames, super slacked, with chainstays in the 440mm range. The interviewed pros all said they basically like the bikes low and long. Now I realize I'm not looking to create a DH gravity bike, I'm just trying to find the right fit. A longer chainstay will help with climbing, and me get more in the center of the bike. Increasing the chainstay increases the level arm, which will require a shock that can handle the increased force.
I found a used 2018 Hightower LT rear triangle for sale. It's super close to my 2018 Hightower with a slightly different link. I might have to buy the bottom and top LT links to make it work. I'm wondering if it will fit?
If I can make it work on my frame, I could cut it and lengthen it myself. I know how to work with CF layups an other composites. I would reinforce the seatstays while I'm at it. I don't want to mess with my existing rear triangle, that's why I'd rather have a second one to mess with / ruin

Separately, I'm looking at a 180mm dropper. My 150mm just isn't getting my saddle low enough for trails like the one pictured above.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Longer chainstays also help with cornering as they assist weighting the front wheel.


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Next my focus is on XXL frames with longer 'chainstays' or 'rear centers'. I just watched a video on current Pro DH bikes. These 5'8 tall riders are riding XL frames, super slacked, with chainstays in the 440mm range. The interviewed pros all said they basically like the bikes low and long. Now I realize I'm not looking to create a DH gravity bike, I'm just trying to find the right fit. A longer chainstay will help with climbing, and me get more in the center of the bike. Increasing the chainstay increases the level arm, which will require a shock that can handle the increased force.
> I found a used 2018 Hightower LT rear triangle for sale. It's super close to my 2018 Hightower with a slightly different link. I might have to buy the bottom and top LT links to make it work. I'm wondering if it will fit?
> If I can make it work on my frame, I could cut it and lengthen it myself. I know how to work with CF layups an other composites. I would reinforce the seatstays while I'm at it. I don't want to mess with my existing rear triangle, that's why I'd rather have a second one to mess with / ruin
> 
> Separately, I'm looking at a 180mm dropper. My 150mm just isn't getting my saddle low enough for trails like the one pictured above.


You would need a hell of a long chain stay to fix the position that the slack seat tube angle has you in. You're sitting above the rear wheel instead of the BB. Not to mention that the reach is only 505mm or whatever is what which is very short for your height. Seem like a high effort losing battle instead of just buying a bike that fits and has suitable modern geo instead of a bike that says XXL on it and doesn't fit.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Who makes such a bike?


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

I mean there's a tonne of bikes with a longer reach than 505mm. Even just a current Santa Cruz (if you like those) are now 515mm in XXL. There's a lot of bikes available in the 515-520mm area. But something genuinely long enough for 6'7" is more like 535mm. Of the top of my head, here's some big ones:

Specialized Stumpjumper, SJ Evo, Turbo Levo in size S6 - 535mm
Transition Spire - 535mm
Pole: All of their bikes - 535-540mm
Geometron - 555mm
Kavenz VHP16 - 540mm
Kona Process X - 525mm


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Who makes such a bike?


That is exactly where the problem lie.........I would say hardly anyone.
The big problem is that those that have similar issues as us.......make up maybe 2 - 5 %?
Not sure....... that was just a guess but something no one will be interested in as it is a losing proposition......
Sort of similar for those on extra small frames but not quite the same.......they can always go up from there.......we got nothing after XXL.........
A visual picture........








emphasis of our problem on top of lack of availability.
(Not me.......if you are wondering......just a random shot!)
I know Waltwork bikes off hand but he has a long waiting list and they are not cheap but very nice!

I know for me I was worried about the Warden as Knolly has a small Stack height but they had increased the reach from the previous model. (which was waaaay to short for me!) But I countered it was a 180 fork which helped lifting up the front end but also increased the BB height and length. I love the Fox 38 fork and was so happy I went with it! I have spacers on the steer tube but it is something I am use to.
I am very happy with the bike for up and down. It has been very good on the steep, tight, technical trails here in BC and I was told I look some what normal on my bike.......I guess I did not look normal on my old bike........LOL
I did not think I did but I guess they were right specially on my old XXL Turner that I rode and still have with its 26 inch tires......LOL Shot from 4 years ago.










Thanks for sharing!
Good luck with your up grades Tall BMX'r!
Look forward to see if it works out for you!!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Thanks DawgP. Great picture! We are just funny looking awkward humans. I see pictures of me golfing and it looks like I'm playing with junior clubs

Thanks Paranoid_. The Transition and Geometron G1 are the winners of those. 
Looking just at these 3 specs: Reach / Chainstay / Wheel Base (in XXL or their Largest frame.) The slacker HTA have longer wheelbases.

My 2018 Hightower 505mm / 435mm / 1275mm (with my 160mm forks) 
Kona Process 525mm / 435mm / 1308mm 
Kavenez VHP 540mm / 425mm / 1249mm
SJ EVO 528mm / 448mm / 1319mm
Pole 540mm / 450mm / 1351mm
Transition Spire 535mm / 454mm / 1354mm
Geometron G1 555mm / 458mm / 1371mm which is 4" longer than my bike.

I might want to keep a Transition in my sights. They are made in the western US, which would make easier to get a hold of.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Thanks DawgP. Great picture! We are just funny looking awkward humans. I see pictures of me golfing and it looks like I'm playing with junior clubs
> 
> Thanks Paranoid_. The Transition and Geometron G1 are the winners of those.
> Looking just at these 3 specs: Reach / Chainstay / Wheel Base (in XXL or their Largest frame.) The slacker HTA have longer wheelbases.
> ...


For what it's worth, the Kona Process X has a two position chainstay flip chip. The short position is 435mm, while long is 450mm. It looks like the info you have above is only listing the short position.

Same thing with the stump jumper evo. it has a two position flip chip as well. Long position for it is 453mm instead of the 448mm you have listed.

I don't know if that's enough to make either of those more appealing. Just figured I'd mention those had a bit more chainstay length than you were originally thinking.


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## brawlo (Mar 13, 2012)

Nicolai, the twin brother to Geometron is well worth noting. They offer more big options, plus for a big of extra coin, their frames are able to be modified and customised.

I started with riding road and track bikes. You can get away with riding smaller sized frames much easier than on MTBs. After many years of chasing my tale with bike sizing, I saw a well regarded fitter for a new custom track frame and advice on a road frame. I ended up on a Canyon Ultimate in 3XL and it was an epiphany! I now ride a bike that fits me like a normal sized person fits a smaller bike. About a year before that time I bought a Scott Scale and dipped into the MTB world. After the road and track epiphanies my MTB became a chore to ride. I knew it was way off for fit and just rode it on road and gravel while out with my young daughter. A few years ago I decided to size up and geeked out on hard tails and ended up with a Pole Taival. Having a steeper seat tube and not having to hunch right over the bars when climbing was a revelation.

Since then, I’ve come to acknowledge that 99% of what I ride is XC and the Pole is a bit much bike for the purpose. I’d seriously love to invest in a DS Nicolai Saturn but have stuck with a HT from the same guys that built my track bike - Duratec.....for now. It’s full custom and designed by me to be somewhat of a down country HT. Reach 516, Stack 693 on a 120mm fork, 68deg head tube, 74deg seat tube, 455mm chain stays. I’m still waiting to get my hands on it, but it’s now in the country at least. 

After having my Pole and deciding to get something else, seat tube ACTUAL angle and chain stay length became a pretty big consideration. While I scoured the net hoping against hope to find a proper big FS XC bike, or a trail bike that might suit, I came across so many larger frames that had decent seat tube angles at stack, but were actually so slack that by the time I had the seat where I needed it I was back out over the rear wheel again, just like my old Scott. It’s a big big person problem and I noticed recently that almost no one posts actual seat tube angles any more, just effective ones.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

I ride a transition sentinel v2, which is like the spire’s baby brother. Would love to swing a leg over the spire. I don’t think I’d want it as my one bike because of how much travel it has, but it’s a good contender.

If i had to buy a new bike right now I think it’d be the stump evo because the geo is just big enough to be comfortable (I’m 6’7) and its intentions are more of an all arounder instead of a bruiser. 

That being said, my sentinel fits me decently well so I don’t see myself getting rid of it anytime soon. 

Also have a pole Taival with taller stack, longer reach, and longer wheelbase and it definitely feels like a better fit. I’m happy with my 2-bike quiver! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

I was proven wrong that there are some options.......
Like I have said before if you ordered one, hopefully going by the numbers that it would work for you?
Sort of a shot in the dark but it just cost you $$$$ for the experiment.
Just saying.......

I will have to say I like the Pole, Transition and the Geometron as options........
The Pole does look interesting but I will stick to what I got for now.
For me Knolly is local.
Transition is close to being local, probably the easiest to ones hand on and most likely the cheapest of the three.
But then nothing comes cheap now a days!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Looking closer at these numbers and my Hightower is not to far from the Transition Sentinel spec's. 
My Hightower 505mm / 435mm / 1275mm (with my 160mm forks) and a 66 deg. HT angle (because of the longer forks) has a 20mm longer wheelbase. They make an ajustable headset for my Hightower that would get it to a 64.6 deg. HTA. This would effectively give me a wheelbase of about 1305mm. Only a 10mm difference from the Sentinel. Doesn't help my reach, and probably won't help in climbing unless I had some heavier forks The Transition has a 440mm chainstay. That's only a 5mm ( 1/4") difference. I may still go for the adjustable HTA kit. 
The Transition Spire is closer to a DH bike which the current DH trend is too make them longer. I like the make them longer part, but not all the travel and heavier forks. Maybe get a DH frame and detune it with less travel and lighter forks?


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Dawgprimo said:


> The Pole does look interesting


They most definitely do.

There are a significant number of ex-pole riders on a nicolai/g1.

Learn from our mistakes and get the better bike first time =)


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

so the spire is 535 reach and 646 stack 63 hta. 
my bike is 477 reach but 685 stack 67 hta. 

converting the spire to 685 stacj would be 513 reach. that 35mm would be great, 

problem is i run an uncut steerer with about 40mm under the stem. so i would have 80mm under the stem on the spire then my 38mm riser bars???

i will stick w my current bike thanks.

now if the stack was 680 and 510 reach, 66 hta, then im going shopping


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I think I figured out a way to increase my chainstay by maybe as much as 20mm (455mm), without messing with the rear triangle. I'm pretty sure I can modify or make a longer bottom link. This pushes the the chainstay further back away from the BB. It will cause my BB to drop a little, but I can raise it back up by flipping my flip chip on the shock to the high position. It's already a little higher due to the longer forks. Then slack my forks to 64.5. Those two changes combined will give me almost 50mm longer wheelbase (1325mm).


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I think I figured out a way to increase my chainstay by maybe as much as 20mm (455mm), without messing with the rear triangle. I'm pretty sure I can modify or make a longer bottom link. This pushes the the chainstay further back away from the BB. It will cause my BB to drop a little, but I can raise it back up by flipping my flip chip on the shock to the high position. It's already a little higher due to the longer forks. Then slack my forks to 64.5. Those two changes combined will give me almost 50mm longer wheelbase (1325mm).


Now this sounds impressive. We'll need a lot of photos!


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I think I figured out a way to increase my chainstay by maybe as much as 20mm (455mm), without messing with the rear triangle. I'm pretty sure I can modify or make a longer bottom link. This pushes the the chainstay further back away from the BB. It will cause my BB to drop a little, but I can raise it back up by flipping my flip chip on the shock to the high position. It's already a little higher due to the longer forks. Then slack my forks to 64.5. Those two changes combined will give me almost 50mm longer wheelbase (1325mm).





Tall BMX'r said:


> I think I figured out a way to increase my chainstay by maybe as much as 20mm (455mm), without messing with the rear triangle. I'm pretty sure I can modify or make a longer bottom link. This pushes the the chainstay further back away from the BB. It will cause my BB to drop a little, but I can raise it back up by flipping my flip chip on the shock to the high position. It's already a little higher due to the longer forks. Then slack my forks to 64.5. Those two changes combined will give me almost 50mm longer wheelbase (1325mm).


Have you accounted for the changed suspension kinematics? That's a fairly massive change to the rear suspension.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I know there will be more force applied to the shock because of the longer lever arm. How much, I'll have to measure it by comparing sag / psi increase. The bottom link is in tension. As can be seen in the last picture where my temp / test link failed when I tried pumping the shock and sitting on it.
The test result: The 20mm extension of the bottom link dropped my BB too much, even with the flip chip moved to the high position. It did make the bike longer and slacker. See the attach specs.
























Man... That is dirty. This needed to be cleaned which I did about a month ago.









Here is my test link. I knew it would fail, but it gave me the geo change spec's I was looking for.
































The Fail.......









10mm change might work better BB height wise? Is it worth it? Get some shorter cranks


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Wild!


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## Kristian94568 (Sep 6, 2016)

Subscribed for awesomeness

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Part of me would want to model out the anti-squat, leverage curve etc etc. 

Part of me would think its easier to just build it and see how it rides. 

Doing the sums may show a key length range to aim for. 

Thankfully I've got a big bike already so don't need to worry about these things =) 

If it doesn't work, just flog the cruz and buy a nicolai. 

If it does work then custom awesomeness! 

Seems like a win win.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

The more I think about it, I'm thinking I'd rather extend the rear triangle. I'm better with carbon fiber work than milling a part. I could make the part myself but I doesn't really achieve what I'm after. Cutting the rear triangle and extending it would maintain the original pivot and BB height. I just need to find a rear triangle for my 2018 Hightower that I can mess with. I wonder if I can buy one direct from Santa Cruz?


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

Have you seen how the Santa Cruz Syndicate team would achieve something similar on Minnaar’s downhill bike with custom drop outs?


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## Paranoid_Android (Oct 11, 2006)

You’d obviously have brake mounts to consider too.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'd thought about something like that. Nice to see what someone else already did. The brake is actually a side mount bracket. That could be easily repositioned.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I'd thought about something like that. Nice to see what someone else already did. The brake is actually a side mount bracket. That could be easily repositioned.
> View attachment 1946360


Easier to machine a new brake adapter with offset (unless that's what you meant)?


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Yes. Could incorporate the brake adapter and axle adapter into one piece. That would be stronger with more points of attachment.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

It has been awhile.......
Just curious if you went ahead with your idea or went a different direction......?


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Dawgprimo said:


> It has been awhile.......
> Just curious if you went ahead with your idea or went a different direction......?


I started drawing it and realized my cheap thumb slide caliper was not accurate enough to take measurements. So I ordered a good digital one. The more I thought about the points of contact, specially with a CF frame, the less obvious the design was. Most, if not all of the clamping force needs to be right on the metal where the axle mounts. Just beyond that metal ring the CF flares out. I don't want to put any force on that area. Some contact with the end of the chainstay has to happen. Where and how much? I wish I could see one of those adapters first hand.... It's a side project, but something I want to do.


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I'm sure there are newer bikes with more reach. The Specialized S6 is a little bigger. This was a slightly used bike I found after about 6 months of searching for the rare XXL. A local bike shop had only one new 2021 model Santa Cruz Hightower C for $8K. I paid $3,500. for mine. A good friend of mine manages a bike store and their brand is Trek. I could have got a new Aluminum framed Trek Fuel EX7 for about $3,500. That's the only mtb model they sell in an XXL size.


I just came from a 2020 Hightower to a 2021 (or is it actually 2022?) S6 EVO Stumpy. It rides smaller than the numbers tell. I also miss the 10mm stack the Hightower had. The shop upgraded my fork to a lyrik Ultimate they had in stock but the steerer was already cut. For all intents and purposes the steerer would be plenty long but it seems like I would have liked another 10mm or so. They tell me that that extra 10mm would have been above recommended extensions but I'd risk it since I'm not really the most aggressive rider out there.


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## beckma (Jun 17, 2013)

Really an interesting thread and a lot of details regarding the problems taller riders tend to have even with modern frame geometry. The stack often is not as much growing as reach:









I really hope the carbon shaft of the new trust message will hold up to this


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

beckma said:


> Really an interesting thread and a lot of details regarding the problems taller riders tend to have even with modern frame geometry. The stack often is not as much growing as reach:
> View attachment 1966524
> 
> 
> I really hope the carbon shaft of the new trust message will hold up to this


Why not just get a higher rise bar?


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## beckma (Jun 17, 2013)

jeremy3220 said:


> Why not just get a higher rise bar?


I am already on a high rise bar, enve m9 50mm rise 🤭


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

beckma said:


> I am already on a high rise bar, enve m9 50mm rise 🤭


Gotcha, didn't realize it was that tall.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I finally got my 2018 Hightower bike Geo to where I like it. It doesn't climb as well as it did stock, but it freek'n bombs hills so well now. I'm getting a FOX Float X2 shock in a week or two. I'm sure that will be an improvement as well. Here's what my Hightower spec's are now..


















The Slack-R installed.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

beckma said:


> I am already on a high rise bar, enve m9 50mm rise 🤭


Just so you know, they make even higher rise bars . Like 65, 75, and even 85mm riser bars IIRC.


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## beckma (Jun 17, 2013)

ocnLogan said:


> Just so you know, they make even higher rise bars . Like 65, 75, and even 85mm riser bars IIRC.


Yes, but imho there are some disadvantages with those high risers: 

1. Adjusting bar roll: The higher the bar/rise, the more complicated it is to get your bar roll setting dialed. 
2. Looks: It just looks odd imho. Sure it is form follows function, but still a extreme high riser (80mm) doesent match a modern mtb.
3. Weight: Self explaining i guess.

I just changed my setup a little and have less spacers installed. Rides great so far.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

beckma said:


> Really an interesting thread and a lot of details regarding the problems taller riders tend to have even with modern frame geometry. The stack often is not as much growing as reach:
> I really hope the carbon shaft of the new trust message will hold up to this


I'm using this Wake 60mm - 20 degree riser stem that will work with 31.8 and 35mm bars. The spacer sleeves work fine. It's funny, the cheesy graphics are upside down, so I could flip it upside down and change my bike to and XC setup I guess? 
This setup keeps my reach where I like it, and gives me enough rise without a bunch of spacers.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I finally got my 2018 Hightower bike Geo to where I like it. It doesn't climb as well as it did stock, but it freek'n bombs hills so well now. I'm getting a FOX Float X2 shock in a week or two. I'm sure that will be an improvement as well. Here's what my Hightower spec's are now..
> View attachment 1967030
> 
> 
> ...


Keep an eye on the x2, they’ve been known to blow up under bigger guys. Float x would be better imo 


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> Keep an eye on the x2, they’ve been known to blow up under bigger guys. Float x would be better imo
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the heads up. I got used in good condition off a V1 Hightower. I'm going to rebuild it before I use it. The seller also has a DPX2 for sale. I opted for the Float X2. I think the DPX2 is older and more used?? It was a $100. cheaper.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I got used in good condition off a V1 Hightower. I'm going to rebuild it before I use it. The seller also has a DPX2 for sale. I opted for the Float X2. I think the DPX2 is older and more used?? It was a $100. cheaper.


If I had the choice I’d go with the new float x. X2 is good but the reliability scares me 


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

I had terrible luck with my Slack-R on my Specialized Enduro. Use a lot of loctite and make sure grease doesn’t get in the head tube or it will spin rather easily. Mine is currently sitting on the work bench…


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

yzedf said:


> I had terrible luck with my Slack-R on my Specialized Enduro. Use a lot of loctite and make sure grease doesn’t get in the head tube or it will spin rather easily. Mine is currently sitting on the work bench…


I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> If I had the choice I’d go with the new float x. X2 is good but the reliability scares me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I checked and it's a 2021 version Float X2. There was a recall on the early 2017-18 versions because they were blowing up. They've upgraded a whole bunch of stuff including new sleeves and seals handle higher pressures on the newer versions.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I checked and it's a 2021 version Float X2. There was a recall on the early 2017-18 versions because they were blowing up. They've upgraded a whole bunch of stuff including new sleeves and seals handle higher pressures on the newer versions.


Yea the 2021 is better but I’ve still seen a bunch blow seals. As long as it’s under warranty I wouldn’t worry about it 


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

yzedf said:


> I had terrible luck with my Slack-R on my Specialized Enduro. Use a lot of loctite and make sure grease doesn’t get in the head tube or it will spin rather easily. Mine is currently sitting on the work bench…


It was kind of awkward screwing it together and keeping the top and bottom in the right position. I taped the bottom to the head tube in the right position, then wrenched it on while holding the top in the right position. I used a lot of Loctite on the threads and a lot of seating paste cups. I cranked it to 29 Nm's. It's tight! I could imagine if it rotated the bike would track really funky like a bent frame...


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Tall BMX'r said:


> It was kind of awkward screwing it together and keeping the top and bottom in the right position. I taped the bottom to the head tube in the right position, then wrenched it on while holding the top in the right position. I used a lot of Loctite on the threads and a lot of seating paste cups. I cranked it to 29 Nm's. It's tight! I could imagine if it rotated the bike would track really funky like a bent frame...


Not to mention the supplied tool is a pain. Whoever decided it should be driven by a socket instead of having a 3/8 drive female end (like Fox uses for its fork sockets) should probably be fired.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

yzedf said:


> Not to mention the supplied tool is a pain. Whoever decided it should be driven by a socket instead of having a 3/8 drive female end (like Fox uses for its fork sockets) should probably be fired.


It's not like you could even use a wrench on it


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I've now ridden my bike all slacked out a few more times and I have to say, "it climbs better"... The main thing I notice is it's not wheeling out on the steep climbs. Probably do to the longer wheel base? I don't feel the need to slide to the front of my seat and bent over the handlebars to keep the front wheel down. I just stay in a neutral seated position and the front wheel stays planted. Noticeably better on the jumps too. Flying off of drops balanced and in control. I'm really happy with all the changes. Should be getting my new shock soon. Looking forward to that. Next on my list of upgrades is the Grip 2 damper.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I've now ridden my bike all slacked out a few more times and I have to say, "it climbs better"... The main thing I notice is it's not wheeling out on the steep climbs. Probably do to the longer wheel base? I don't feel the need to slide to the front of my seat and bent over the handlebars to keep the front wheel down. I just stay in a neutral seated position and the front wheel stays planted. Noticeably better on the jumps too. Flying off of drops balanced and in control. I'm really happy with all the changes. Should be getting my new shock soon. Looking forward to that. Next on my list of upgrades is the Grip 2 damper.


Don’t get the grip2, just sent your grip damper to fluid focus in San Marcos and have them tune it to your bike and weight. Will likely be around the same price, possibly cheaper, and way more beneficial for big guys like us. The grip2 is underdamped for guys our size 


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> Don’t get the grip2, just sent your grip damper to fluid focus in San Marcos and have them tune it to your bike and weight. Will likely be around the same price, possibly cheaper, and way more beneficial for big guys like us. The grip2 is underdamped for guys our size
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks.. I'll look into that. Actually my forks are pretty good as they are. I'm just guessing they could be better?


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Thanks.. I'll look into that. Actually my forks are pretty good as they are. I'm just guessing they could be better?


In that case I would just save the money and run as-is. Maybe send it in for a tune when it’s due for a damper rebuild anyways. 2 birds with 1 stone 


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm liking the my new Float X2 shock. I feel like I'm in the middle of the shocks range instead of near the max with the DPS Evol. Way more plush, and responsive.


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