# Payaso 4



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Ok so I found a couple of AMP forks now its time for a new bike, Payaso 4 will be a 
front suspended 1x10 36er. First on the list is make the fork fit the clown wheel using
my first atempt fork to modify the jig to fit the linkage of the AMP!!


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm excited to see the fork.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Cool!*

Having ridden the AMP forks a bit, I think you will probably not be very happy with the suspension performance, but it's a fun project.

I keep saying I will do a Headshok 36er, but I still haven't gotten to it... maybe once we're in UT.

-Walt


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

(Waltworks is moving?) TO THE WALTBLOGS!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Got one leg to fit over and arround the linkage but ran out of Drimel cut off wheels
I'll get some new ones today after work.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Heres a couple pics I'm a little closer now I need to decide to use the original drops or 
the ones from Paragon. The originals fit inside the tubing so locating is a snap plus it
will look factory, the paragons will take more work but they look cool. Put it on P1 for 
reference.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

I still want one todwil


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## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

*Longevity*

I really like the way these forks can be used for many different purposes (see thread here http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/amp-ed-781444.html)

Did you simply slide the original legs into the new tubes? Are you going to weld the tubes directly to the current lower crown?

I am curious how well things will hold up in the long run with a such a long lever attached to a fairly small point.

I owned the same model Amp fork and it seemed a bit flimsy to me. I would be nervous trusting my face and teeth with such long legs attached.

Regardless, I like the inginuity demonstrated in P1-4, excited to see the results and hear how it rides.:thumbsup:

frog


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Funckin A Todwil !!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Thanx*

The tubing is 1 1/8 .049 chromoly it fits good I cut the legs just above the brake bosses
I'm going to use the stock drop outs and will cut more of the legs just leaving a couple
Inches the concern I have is the lower tabs on the legs they are thin but they are double
Sheer Im going to add a gusset tab to them I think. They are still about two inches to long
The manual says you need 7/16 from tire to crown but I remembered scrubbing the tire
So I will leave about 9/16~5/8". AMP still does rebuilds so once the legs are made it's
Off to them. Then start on frame!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Very cool Todd!!


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## Plum (Sep 14, 2004)

A thru axle would probably help that fork a ton, they were pretty flexy on 26" bikes.

Cool project.

Plum


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Thanx*

I got the legs cut and ready for welding a freind of mine said he would tig it for me
this weekend, we'll see.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Friend of mine sent me this link couple months ago, thought I'd share it with you guys... Just in case you ever want to go "hi-tech" ! Looks like it would be fairly easy to modify for a 36er too, eh. I don't know what the offset is or would end up being if lenghtened from 29er to 36er.










Here's the link to their website : german:A.® - lightweight bike engineering since 1995

Cheers ! Keep'em coming Todd !


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

TLKD said:


> Friend of mine sent me this link couple months ago, thought I'd share it with you guys... Just in case you ever want to go "hi-tech" ! Looks like it would be fairly easy to modify for a 36er too, eh. I don't know what the offset is or would end up being if lenghtened from 29er to 36er.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I briefly looked at this.

You'd really need to start from the ground up to get the geometry right (front end gets to be too tall and hence HTA too slack etc).

The fork is epxensive, and then to get the right offset would be VERY expensive. There were also concerns about the levergae on the fork and its ability to withstand that force as the fork legs are hollow etc. Plus they have a weight limit IIRC so Todd and me are out 

They do make a GREAT fork from what others have told me. Very light and works as advertised.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

todwil said:


> I got the legs cut and ready for welding a freind of mine said he would tig it for me
> this weekend, we'll see.
> 
> View attachment 690567
> ...


 My freind came thru and welded the legs. I took the fork a part and going to send the 
linkage pieces to AMP for an overhaul and new steer tube also now that bag is out of
cat these pics show the new tires that Matt and Walt are working on I been riding them
for a couple of weeks so P4 has been less of a priority. I will post pics of the fork after it returns from AMP.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

You're right mrbeardls. I didn't think of that !

The more I look at it the more I think it would be possible and "fairly" easy to design & build one with the pivots on the outside of the wheel where the wheel could travel all the way to the steer tube (minus 1/8" kind of thing) and thus reducing "stack height" coming from the fork. And of course you'd need a custom frame to fit it, you wouldn't throw that on a "normal" 36er.

I'd actually like to design and make one ! Unfortunately I don't have much time for this now, my 36er frame is on the backburner still...

Personally I think a 29er Lefty fork with one hell of a custom set of "triple clamps" (or is it "double" in this case ?) would be the best way to go for a suspension 36er. What do you guys think ?

Sorry for the hi-jack Todwil !


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Yes, I think the Lefty is the easiest way but would require custom clamps with more offset. I think the older verion Lefty MAX with 140mm of travel would only give you about 40mm of travel on the 36er but I can't find the math I did at the time. I think you'd have a 510mm axle to crown on the Lefty vs a 458mm wheel plus a small buffer, leaving you with ~40mm travel. 

I think 80mm would be sufficient without changing the geometry too much. You'd also have to find an old Lefty MAX. With custom clamps you could also engineer some more travel out of them but again, you'd end up with slacker geometry (maybe you'd like that as you could descend more agressively?).

I spoke with Project 321 about custom clamps at one point but they weren't interested. I think the next call would be to the group making custom clamps for fat bikes. Can't recall the name right now. Someone did a one-off run a while back but there is someone doing them pretty regularly now.

Good idea about putting the pivots on the outside. Not sure how you would balance it out, but it would certinaly keep your geometry closer to original if putting it on a an old bike or keep the front end low on a new bike.


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## teatreetim (Nov 14, 2011)

This fork is similar but the linkages are either side of head tube. The wheel gets full travel to the crown. With a lefty, you'd have to worry about the loss of stiffness due to such a long leg.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Wow*



teatreetim said:


> This fork is similar but the linkages are either side of head tube. The wheel gets full travel to the crown. With a lefty, you'd have to worry about the loss of stiffness due to such a long leg.


Are you sure you didn't swipe them from an old Bultaco or BSA...how much trail does it have?


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## teatreetim (Nov 14, 2011)

todwil said:


> Are you sure you didn't swipe them from an old Bultaco or BSA...how much trail does it have?


lol no, I put the bottom steerer attachment on backwards. The trail will be a problem no matter what you do though wont it?


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

teatreetim said:


> This fork is similar but the linkages are either side of head tube. The wheel gets full travel to the crown. With a lefty, you'd have to worry about the loss of stiffness due to such a long leg.


Interesting fork. I don't think you'd have to worry about any loss of stiffness with the Lefty as the fork wouldn't be any longer. You'd essentially raise the front of the bike higher to get more travel than the 40mm I calculated above. I could be wrong.



todwil said:


> Are you sure you didn't swipe them from an old Bultaco or BSA...how much trail does it have?


ParaFork forks - travel is 100-130mm



teatreetim said:


> lol no, I put the bottom steerer attachment on backwards. The trail will be a problem no matter what you do though wont it?


Yes, trail will be an issue unless you somehow modify the fork to give you more offset (~50mm more?) whether that's at the crown, dropouts, or angle of the fork legs in reference to the steerer. I think.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The reasons I chose the AMP fork was because it had ~1 3/4" of travel just enough to
Knock the edge off and not have a crazy high head tube plus it has steel legs which
Makes it a good candidate for modification also the rake or trail was real close to 80mm
Can't wait to try it I sent the crown assembly to the Manu for rebuild and new steerer. 
If doesn't work I guess Ill have to get Walt to build me a suspension corrected fork


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The UPS man drop off my fork parts now I need to figure out what color P4 is going to
be p. Pics tomorrow


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Nice work Todd!


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

Sweet! I love those Amp forks and still have one (also rebuilt by Amp a few years ago) on my single speed. When it was rebuilt though, they swapped out the steel parts with aluminum, as Brion mentioned he lost some teeth as well when his rusted through...


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is a couple update pics.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

well I took P3 a part to get it repowdered so I used it to set the jig up for P4!!! Then I 
just tweeked the dimensions. Shorter HT, CS and raised the ST angle.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Got a little more done on P4


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Payaso'd by AMP*

Ok here's my latest teeth removing device......Get to FLAMING
I havent ridden it on the trails yet....I going to try it tomorrow!!!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Looks great. Hope its a blast, let us know how it goes. Congrats on building the first front sus 36er!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Nice color scheme!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

mbeardsl said:


> Looks great. Hope its a blast, let us know how it goes. Congrats on building the first front sus 36er!


 Thanx but I think Keener made a headshock 36er first....



davidfrench said:


> Nice color scheme!


 Can you guess what color P IV will be??


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## cdn-dave (Jan 6, 2007)

I like it! Looking forward to the ride report:thumbsup:


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## BILL E (Apr 13, 2011)

Congratulations, I've really enjoyed watching you building these bikes. I don't dial in very often but I suspect there are a lot of others who just like to watch these projects unfold. Thanks for sharing all the photos.
:thumbsup:


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

todwil said:


> Can you guess what color P IV will be??


YELLOW!


PS: now you have to borrow a GoPro and do a video of your test-ride!
I want see this fork in action!
:thumbsup:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well we rode this morning and put 8 miles in....the fork is no fox 32 talas 15 mil thru axle
But it did quite well it knocked the edge off the bumps similar to going from a 2.0 to a 2.5 tire the Only weird sensation was a chopper effect from a taller axle to crown (+1 1/4") and the bottom bracket height is almost 13" I think the heavy duty spring works OK for me being That I tip the scale a lit...a...lot more than most the medium weight spring would probably Be alright for average weighted person. I didn't hammer the downhills but it tracked good. The chopper effect should go away with suspension corrected (can I say this) frame. Should get about thirty miles on it this weekend and I'll take it off and let Johnny Try it to see what he thinks. 

On to the frame now!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

so... RED?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

davidfrench said:


> YELLOW!
> 
> 
> PS: now you have to borrow a GoPro and do a video of your test-ride!
> ...


 Fat people and cameras don't mix 



davidfrench said:


> so... RED?


Close!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Purple??


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Turquoise, white and some "woodgrain panel" on downtube with white rims and pewter King hubs, headset and BB !!!

Nice job on that fork btw ! P4 Headtube looks sweet too


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

mbeardsl said:


> Purple??


Warmer!!



TLKD said:


> Turquoise, white and some "woodgrain panel" on downtube with white rims and pewter King hubs, headset and BB !!!
> 
> Nice job on that fork btw ! P4 Headtube looks sweet too


Thanx..... that head tube I got from you will do the trick perfectly!

As far as color it's going to be dark blue ( think Craftsmen tool box or parks spinning tool
Caddy blue) king green hubset and headset black payaso stickers and old people 25* 
Sweep back carbon bars O and a comfy seat.:thumbsup:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well I bit the bullet and purchased a used TIG welder. It's a couple year old Lincoln 175
Squarewave. So next week I'll get it wired in to my garage and then get to practicing! So 
maybe P4 will be TIG'd?


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## Typo_Knig (Aug 8, 2009)

todwil said:


> Thanx but I think Keener made a headshock 36er first....


I see him on the U of A campus all the time. He actually used an Action Tec Proshock.

Nice work, by the way. I have been thinking about re-working an AMP for fatbike duty.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well Im still trying to weld with the TIG welder but its going slow the beads are looking better but still need more practice so no new pics of P4:madman:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Ok I gave it try today not to good with TIG. Checked to make sure the parts would fit 
the chain stays are a half inch shorter and the tire still clears


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Geez...

That's just a weird creature, Man. But it's looking good. Must be the angle of the photo, but it looks like there is just no pedal clearance at all. Not much room for mud on that rear tire either! You might want to make sure it is not worn down too far, for fitting purposes!


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Sick ! Crank arms look like they're 135mm long ! Loving the raw steel look !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Done*

Well P4 is done my welding was SUCKING badly so I had my buddy come and finish 
it damn I wish I could weld like that! I did all the welding where another tube covered it
Im going to be practicing before my next project maybe a 32er BMX cruiser...O and 
here are the final pics.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

WOW!!! That looks nice Todd. I love the color (not green) and the bike looks very proportional. What's the BB height?

How long did it take to get the chain ring or did you have it sitting around? Looks tiny


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

mbeardsl said:


> WOW!!! That looks nice Todd. I love the color (not green) and the bike looks very proportional. What's the BB height?
> 
> How long did it take to get the chain ring or did you have it sitting around? Looks tiny


Thanx, The bottom bracket is 13in because of the position of EBB has to be at so I can use the Pauls Chain guide. I ordered the chain rings in May from HBC 30t TI.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

VERY Santitary;

Congratulations!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

sweeet!


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Cripes, man. Very neatly put together.

Don't recall if I've asked this - how tall are you? Inseam? Thinking about my own 36er of the future. I am wondering if I would have to build a 29/36 freakazoid for the sake of my 31" inseam.


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Very nice & clean ride. Your nicest to date I'm gonna say ! That's something to be proud of for sure. Congrats !


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Todd, is it ok if I put your the pics of the new Payaso on the 36er blog?
David


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanx everyone I have about 50 miles on it now and it rides good, the fork rides well also.
I'm getting use to having gears the 36t sure helps on the climbs when I remember to shift
Now it's time to clean the mess up.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Drew Diller said:


> Cripes, man. Very neatly put together.
> 
> Don't recall if I've asked this - how tall are you? Inseam? Thinking about my own 36er of the future. I am wondering if I would have to build a 29/36 freakazoid for the sake of my 31" inseam.


 Drew Im about 6 foot tall and my inseam is arround 31" also, the frame I made for me
is a 18.5 ST but the TT crowds the boys because it rises fast to clear the front tire but
P2 has a 15.5 ST and I accually fit better on it (stand over) so I beleive you could get
away with both tires being three foot!! Matt is saying tires will be here soon!!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Ride Report 450 Miles*

Well P4 has about 450 miles on it everything seems to be ok all the superlite parts
are hanging in there even with a superfat boy pounding on them. Took it to Tucson last
week and rode 45 miles on some great trails the only place hard to ride the 36er was on
the 50 year trail was were the chutes meet the boulders lots of hike O bike!!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well i believe I have close to 1000 miles on P4 and the only changes have been gearing. The first change was the front chain ring we got an XX1 adapter from Specialized and put a 28t chain ring plus I removed the chain device. This helped
Climbing for sure. Then a friend of mine found some 41t stainless steel cogs on
That famous auction place and WOW I can clear a LOT of stuff that was hike o bike before, this is real close to XX1 and it works well the cog doesn't have shifting ramps 
But it shifts ok. The weight is on the hefty side 230g but 41 bucks delivered what 
The heck.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi Tod, interested in your XXI front ring adapter.
pics?
thanks


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is pics of the Poor mans XX1!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Nice.
What part # did you use from Specialized? I'd like to know if I can use it to get my 220mm joe Kuosac cranks on that XX1 front chain ring.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

davidfrench said:


> Nice.
> What part # did you use from Specialized? I'd like to know if I can use it to get my 220mm joe Kuosac cranks on that XX1 front chain ring.


 I think you'll have to go to Experimental Prototype he probably could whip you up something!!


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