# Why would a fit rider want to e-MTB?



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:

1) Bikepacking with a big load.
2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
3) Need to travel a long distance for some reason.

Any others?


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm not. "fit rider" and don't have one but I see 2 reasons that they would be great. For me it would be e-fat bike.

Your first option except the bike packing part. Carrying trail maintenance gear is faster by bike but totally sucks when your trails have steep punchy stuff. Having a motor to help on work days would be amazing. But for bike packing it doesn't make much sense. How are you going to charge it? It becomes way worse than no motor trying to pedal one once the battery dies.

You option 2 seems to be the biggest thing. It's a "new toy" just like buying a different discipline of bike and using it for such. New type of fun, new smiles.

3rd one again you run into battery range and trying to move the thing once dead. Far better than to just do it under your own power unless the going out is a lot of up meaning the trip back is a lot of down.

I think majority is the second option though, just something different.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Race course setting/clearing. 
Trail work.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Why would a fit rider want to-

Skydive
Paddle the Grand Canyon
Ride lift assisted downhill
Drive a few laps on the Nurburgring Ring
etc. 

Lots of people are pretty diverse in their recreational pursuits and a mountain bike is just one toy among many so it's not surprising that an e-bike might be another one of them. One common denominator seems to be the fun factor, and I'm sure electric bikes deliver there.

One reason I'm not interested in them is because the trails I really like riding now don't permit electric bikes and I hope they never do. Another is that they're really expensive and require a lot more maintenance than a bicycle, which isn't my thing.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:
> 
> 1) Bikepacking with a big load.
> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
> ...


 Bike packing? Yes, I want a heavier bike? Not. And charge the battery? Just plug it into a tree or cactus? 
Change of pace? Thats why I GO bikepacking. 
I can go long distances on my bike, no battery required. Coffee and bacon make great fuel. Dried salami too. So go long distances, what does one do when the battery runs out? Carry yet another heavy battery? How about a generator on a trailer to to charge the batteries? My Karate Monkey weighed 70 pounds this summer, can't imagine needing more weight, at least for a summer tour. YRMV.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

fos'l said:


> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.


I thought eBikes were no faster than normal mountain bikes?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I thought eBikes were no faster than normal mountain bikes?


Meant different experience; didn't say anything about speed. Sorry if I was obtuse.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Didn't open this to argue, just mention some of the reasons that I might use e-power and see what might motivate others. Also, riders use solar power to recharge batteries and it's unlikely that I would exhaust my battery since I never have and know the consumption. I'd have a small (3 lb) back-up if my wife and I decide to try this; by the way, we hike and backpack too. Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

fos'l said:


> Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.


Well, it's gona happen.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Meh, it's easy to find justification for new toys or to be "that guy". I'm a reasonably fit rider and wouldn't have one.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

stop trying to make it happen

it's not gonna happen


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Didn't open this to argue, just mention some of the reasons that I might use e-power and see what might motivate others. Also, riders use solar power to recharge batteries and it's unlikely that I would exhaust my battery since I never have and know the consumption. I'd have a small (3 lb) back-up if my wife and I decide to try this; by the way, we hike and backpack too. Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.


 Bikepacking for 2 days or two weeks? One of the reasons I go bikepacking is to unplug. How big is that solar array? Weight? I know people who charge stuff like lights and a phone, not large stuff. No arguing in the e bikes section, ever. Uggg. Do you even bikepack? Or just guessing at stuff?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

To go faster and/or farther would be the top reasons I could see. More DH laps if you were an enduro racer training for instance. Faster is always fun. 

I could see it being useful for a bushwacking efat bike. Not that there are many places that would be happy to see people riding off trail.

Besides the weight, for bikepacking you'd also be eating up valuable storage space with batteries and controller. I just don't see it as an attractive option for a fit rider.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, that was pretty much my point (totally lost on the cretins); my only reasons (and I'm not even fit anymore although I ride or hike 4 or 5 times a week) would be the need for extra power, for whatever reason to travel further or as something different once in a while.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Well I haven't heard of anyone at any experience level go ride singletrack on an ebike, come back and say "well, that sucked." If a lot did, I highly doubt almost every manufacturer would be producing one.


----------



## kermit_xc (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding. 

Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

127.0.0.1 said:


> stop trying to make it happen
> 
> it's not gonna happen


For what value of ''it"?



evasive said:


> Trail work.


That would be my reason. Unlikely at current prices though.



kermit_xc said:


> I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding.
> 
> Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m


Best reason I've seen yet.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

kermit_xc said:


> I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding.
> 
> Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m


I think this is fantastic use of an e-motorbike. Not only are you not burning gas and sparing your vehicle some wear and tear, you're getting a moderate workout.

I'm guessing you could make the drive in 10-15 minutes? As one who puts more miles on his bicycles and legs than on his car each year, it's refreshing to encounter another throwback who doesn't mind sacrificing time for fitness and air quality.

Seriously, I salute you.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

To address OP, trail building and maintenance are two great uses for e-motorbikes. Those guys sacrifice a lot of time and effort for the greater good of anyone who enjoys our trail systems, and much of the equipment they must haul around is very heavy.

However, generally speaking, I am not a fan of e-motorbikes on trails designated as non-motorized. Despite what certain state legislatures or city ordinances proclaim, a motor is a motor. Anyone who would argue that 350W (or, god, 750W!) isn't much power needs to hop on a stationary with a powermeter and see how long he/she can maintain that output.

I understand the desire to be on the trails, but I don't understand the wish for motorized assistance, and I probably never will. It's weird to say, but the work is half the fun.

Realize these points have been covered ad nauseum within this subforum, so my apologies for being redundant. I don't hate anyone for riding an e-motorbike on singletrack trail, but I do feel at some point you probably decided you didn't want to put in the work anymore, and that makes me a little sad.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Why post in an "emotorbike forum?" I'm sure the ebike riders on the ebike forum value your opinion.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Well I haven't heard of anyone at any experience level go ride singletrack on an ebike, come back and say "well, that sucked." If a lot did, I highly doubt almost every manufacturer would be producing one.


 My ride sucked. Dirt road, way fast, too fast almost. For me and my riding here in MA, lots of ledges, logs, tech up and downs too. Some trials type moves as well. Not on all the trails, but many. Lofting the front wheel? Way too much work and awkward to say the least. Ruined the flow. And the fun. So there's that. YRMV.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?


Dirt ROAD, he said.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?


 ^^^^ Needs some clarity here. I was at an accessibility event, for those with some physical disabilities. In part sponsored by the state park agency. So there were some electric off road wheel chairs, some e bikes, e trikes and some hand cranks type mobility devices. Actually a pretty cool event to get some folks out in the woods who would not have an opportunity otherwise.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutch said:


> ^Why post in an "emotorbike forum?" I'm sure the ebike riders on the ebike forum value your opinion.


Partly because mtbr.com is a forum for mountain bikers, and partly because I believe at least a portion of my response addressed the OP's question.

I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?

And whether you value my input or not is of no consequence to me. That's the beauty of forums--we're not all going to share the same interests or viewpoints.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

hdparrish said:


> I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?


Participation in this subforum does not require one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes.


----------



## mrfat (Jan 21, 2014)

They probably wouldn't. It really is cheating. I'm a big guy and find some climbs nearly insufferable. But on an e-bike it's a breeze. I was able to easily 'pedal' along at over 16 mph on the climbs and pass everyone else on the trail. Normally I'd struggle to keep a 4.7 mph pace. I don't find he weight to be that bad so it didn't effect the descending that much. If there were numerous drops then I could possibly see it being a bit of a hindrance. 

I was able to knock out 3 loops in the time it would have taken me to complete one on a normal mtb. And I still had energy to spare. In fact it was a bit ungratifying. I like riding and feeling some exhaustion. I imagine a fit rider would be even more perturbed as they wouldn't feel like they got a good workout in. I do like ebikes but I kinda feel they should regulate the power output more and reduce the speed at which they operate. Being able to hit 25 mph on a climb is ridiculous and will certainly draw the ire of others.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Good response, and that was my reasoning. I MIGHT use a e-bike for bikepacking, but never have. My wife and I have explored some sites on MTB's (round trip obviously since we didn't stay overnight). We could try it this summer. I MIGHT need to travel further than necessary on a given ride, but that has not occurred, although we've been on the trail all day on MTB's. The only reason that I ride an e-MTB is for a different experience when bored with "normal" rides. Obviously most here don't agree which is fine since I'm way past trying to please anyone.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> The only reason that I ride an e-MTB is for a different experience when bored with "normal" rides.


Do you ride your e-bike on the same trails that you mountain bike on? As mentioned they're not allowed most places I ride which sort of eliminates them as an option for trail riding. Plenty of atv trails here but I guess I'd rather ride a bike on those too.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, good to hear from you & hope the weather is reasonable up yonder. We had the mid-80's or so today. Usually, I ride the e-bike on errands or to supplement MTB, that is, now that the newness has waned a little, I ride MTB as much as I would and take an extra e-ride every so often.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

fos'l said:


> Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:
> 
> 1) Bikepacking with a big load.
> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
> ...


Because they are f-ing FUN!!!!!


----------



## russmu66 (Nov 11, 2007)

mrfat said:


> Being able to hit 25 mph on a climb is ridiculous and will certainly draw the ire of others.


I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.

I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.

It's not always about the speed.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

russmu66 said:


> I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.
> 
> I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.
> 
> It's not always about the speed.


With an unrestricted 750W bike and no regard for battery life, 25mph would be doable on a very smooth/not too steep climb, but agreed, that was ridiculous hyperbole.

Old farts who want to be in less pain and slow/timid SOs (which is almost the entire market right now) are never going to be an issue for trail access. It's the next generation of riders who will want to go faster rather than just take it easy that are the problem.

-W


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hdparrish said:


> Partly because mtbr.com is a forum for mountain bikers, and partly because I believe at least a portion of my response addressed the OP's question.
> 
> I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?
> 
> And whether you value my input or not is of no consequence to me. That's the beauty of forums--we're not all going to share the same interests or viewpoints.


Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum? MOST ebike riders are CURRENT or past mtbrs. NON EBIKE owners, have the mindset that we are very green and don't understand the bike scene. The ebike is new, not the riders.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't own a nuclear powered excavator, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to share trails with any.

Just saying.

-W


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Not one thing wrong with legally riding an ebike on legal trails. Who are we to judge people and what they do for enjoyment. ANY ride is better than no ride.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Oh, for sure. I'd ride one in a hot second on a lot of motorized trails that are too chewed up or steep to be fun on a normal mountain bike.

-Walt


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I currently don't own an emtb, but do own 4 Turbo road bikes and like the emtb, they are super fun, but doesn't mean that I stop riding normal bikes. As for my next "motorbike" Ducati desert sled. To answer the OP question, I would just simply get one for fun. All my bikes are fun, hell, if I'm not getting paid to ride, is there any other reason?


----------



## BeDrinkable (Sep 22, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum?


This isn't unique to the e-bike forum. If you go into the 27.5 forum, there are still(!) arguments about why anyone would ride such a contraption. The 26er forum has people telling others to 'get with the times'. The drivetrain forum has people wondering why anyone would ride a 2x since they, specifically, do not. It's the internet man. Arguing about everything under the sun is what we do.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

That's for sure, human nature I guess.


----------



## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

russmu66 said:


> I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.
> 
> I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.
> 
> It's not always about the speed.


25mph isn't likely to be realistic on anything but a gradual climb. Even 15mph though seems like the person is passing at a much higher speed if it's a decent enough ascent. Even if plugging along at 6 mph and some passes at 13mph it seems like they are going quite a bit faster that just double your rate.

One thing I've noticed out here though is many people will mod their bikes from the get go. In fact the LBS will often do it and uses it as a selling point.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

25mph is non achieveable on ANY bike climbing singletrack.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm not talking about an 8000w contraption. A Levo, no way.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> 25mph is non achieveable on ANY bike climbing singletrack.


20 mph? 18? When a human powered MTB may be grinding along at 6 mph.The disparity in speeds is telling and when pointed out to land managers, eye opening.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I agree, they may want to purchase one themselves and get on with more riding and less farting around at 6 mph.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Riding or just using a motor with a little pedaling?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I agree, they may want to purchase one themselves and get on with more riding and less farting around at 6 mph.


Rather, they may just simply prohibit motor assisted bikes to forego future conflicts. Path of least resistance and posts like yours are making it even less so.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, as a landowner they have that right. So let's let them decide what to allow on their land rather than what "you" feel would be best. I allow them on my land, along with mtbs and snowmobiles and motorbikes. Why? because I'm not threatened over a small number of Ebikes, bigger fish to fry. Also, if I lived and rode somewhere where things are that "delicate" I'd move on, not worth it. I'm trying to think of the last disrespectful rider I've encountered on the trail and it wasn't an Ebiker, it was a Strava freak going gangbusters and the sad part is they are EVERYWHERE unlike Ebikers.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I'm trying to think of the last disrespectful rider I've encountered on the trail and it wasn't an Ebiker, it was a Strava freak going gangbusters and the sad part is *they are EVERYWHERE unlike Ebikers.*


Yet. If you think the strava freaks are bad now just wait until they have an extra 700 watts or so on tap.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

True, but they won't be going downhill any faster, most are slower downhill on an emtb due to the hefty handling. I don't buy the uphill speedster argument.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Riding or just using a motor with a little pedaling?


Make no mistake, you can go out and return completely hammered from a full day on an emtb. You need awesome technical skills and a strong upper body.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I don't buy the uphill speedster argument.


And I don't buy the "they're slower downhill" argument either.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you have any experience riding like a Levo for a day on some technical downhills or are we basing our facts off hearsay or video's?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Do you have any experience riding like a Levo for a day on some technical downhills or are we basing our facts off hearsay or video's?


No, that's why I watched the review on the Levo. The guy did seem to be having a blast.

Funny about all the arguments, I have absolutely no problem with them other than the industry's sneaky (IMO) back-door approach to trail access. Let them stand on their own merits, or lack thereof instead of changing the definition of a bicycle to accommodate them.

Where I live there should be no conflict or need to change existing laws because there are endless atv/jeep tracks that are challenging and fun and they are already legal to ride there.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I also agree that the industry is being sneaky. They should stand on their own merits. I personally am much faster downhill on my Niner, than I was on my Levo. Everywhere else, forget it.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum? MOST ebike riders are CURRENT or past mtbrs. NON EBIKE owners, have the mindset that we are very green and don't understand the bike scene. The ebike is new, not the riders.


Why do you care whether I post here? OP asked a question and I gave my input. I don't own a 29er, and I'm not a bona fide weight weenie (certainly not with my current tires!), but I've posted in those subforums. Is it a matter of time before you play fake thread police there, too?

My comments haven't implied anything about e-motorcycle owners/riders being new to trails. You've completely made that up, apparently to suit an agenda.

If anything, my statements have suggested the opposite--it seems most e-motorcycle owners got to a point where they didn't want to put in the work anymore and traded in their bicycles for motors, and that saddens me because the work, pain, sweat, weight loss, gradually improving over time, mastering several thousand vertical feet in one climb, _and knowing you did it all yourself_, is half the fun.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^idc where you post. I'm stating most ebike owners also own normal bikes. You keep stating or implying that we all trade in our bikes for Ebikes, don't sweat, lose weight etc. Your a rider that's never ridden one, but is now an expert on the ebike rider and their habits, funny and very sad.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

My comment about trading bicycles for motors stems from the fact that all the e-motorcycle riders I know here where I live were hard-core mountain bikers who did just that.

And I have ridden an e-motorcycle, so you're also wrong about that.

I don't hate anyone, least of all someone who pedals around on an e-motorcycle. I just don't think they belong on non-motorized singletrack ... cuz, you know, they have motors. /shrug


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Whatever works for you. If they are legal, there legal. WTF?


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Whatever works for you. If they are legal, there legal. WTF?


Like all of your other responses quoting me, this has nothing to do with what I've stated.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever. The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes. I'm sure your a nice guy and I bet I could take you out for a day on a emtb and you'd have fun. Keep in mind, it's never "all" people do this or "all" ebikers ride like jackasses. IF YOU ARE ON A LEGAL TRAIL AND A FIT RIDER RIPPING A EBIKE, BY ALL MEANS RIP IT! IM NOT GOING TO JUDGE.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Of all the e bikes that I have come across out riding and its only been a few, I have never seen one ridden like we see in the videos . I go slower on the down hills and stop for hikers more often now , with the e bike you don't need to carry speed on the DH s like a reg mt bike . Its easy to stop then get back up to speed agane I spend more time spotting deer n turtles on the trail its a relaxing ride for me .


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JUST MY OPINION --- For those who answered 'because it's fun", guess that might be the best answer. I encountered a very fit rider at a local park yesterday (normally he rides a Pivot MTB) who was on an e-Giant. He said that his biggest problem was removing the smile from his face after riding the PAS bike. Probably this will incite some members and maybe even elicit a few snarky comments, but this is one example.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^yes


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I am a fit rider and I do think of them as e-motorbikes. I don't think they belong on non motorized trails like many here do.
But why would a fit rider want one? What about when you are too old and beat up to rip off the local beginner loop. Will our minds change then?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rlee said:


> I am a fit rider and I do think of them as e-motorbikes. I don't think they belong on non motorized trails like many here do.
> But why would a fit rider want one? What about when you are too old and beat up to rip off the local beginner loop. Will our minds change then?


I think then, by definition, you would no longer be a "fit rider".

-W


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:


----------



## devnull (Feb 8, 2015)

Gutch said:


> Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever. The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes. I'm sure your a nice guy and I bet I could take you out for a day on a emtb and you'd have fun. Keep in mind, it's never "all" people do this or "all" ebikers ride like jackasses. IF YOU ARE ON A LEGAL TRAIL AND A FIT RIDER RIPPING A EBIKE, BY ALL MEANS RIP IT! IM NOT GOING TO JUDGE.


He probably doesn't ride with e-bikers as he won't be able to keep up.

And if they are true hardcore mtbers they won't abandon traditional bikes? What kinda nonsense is that? I know plenty who've gone e-bike and never looked back. It's more fun for them and that's why they ride. It still provides a workout but makes the strenuous unpleasant portion more enjoyable.

They basically justify or rationalize it as technological progress. They always ask why people don't ride 26 wheels anymore. Or why people ride full suspension bikes. Why are people on wide ratio cassettes? We should ride fully rigid single speeds. But we don't we want to be efficient and faster. For them ebikes are just a natural progression.

I've also seen a number of e-bikers ride like in the video above. Most have the courteous to slow down when they approach slower "traffic". It really depends on the trails though. Flowy trails just lend themselves to speed. I gravitate more towards techy trails with a lot of drops and rock gardens. Not as many e-bikers there since they can't carry much speed and the weight can make handling more difficult.

I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can. Do I like that? Not really. It does feel like they are cheating. But I also remember when I was just a hiker and thought mtbers shouldn't be on trails since they were also cheating with their mechanical apparatuses. But maybe I just have an inferiority complex and don't like someone passing me by at double my rate of speed. :eekster:


----------



## dman_mb1 (Jan 19, 2007)

Whiptastic said:


> This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:


It's interesting that one of the criticisms in this video is lack of speed on downhill or other fast sections of trail, though of course this is with Euro speed restrictions which I think are 5 mph (3 mph) less than in the US. So while most of the criticism here on mtbr relates to the motors and the power they're providing, to these bikeradar guys, the problem is that they're too slow!


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

E bikes on your trail can be a positive thing a e bike has no impact on a reg mt bikers enjoyment of the trail none what so ever , land mangers have no ideal if e bikes are using a trail and seem to have little concern about them . E bikers are better at sharing a trail with hikers n horse's and other riders we tend to be a more older and more respectful rider.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I was in Dales, a large bike shop in Glasgow, yesterday. Kinda depressing, they now have a big eBike display right in front of the entrance. Counted, nearly twenty different bikes. You young guy who served me was strangely enthusiastic about them but a lot of his arguments seemed to ring a little hollow to me, a bit like rider95's post above. 

He went further than saying that had no impact on other trail users, he reckoned they were a positive thing as it got more people on the trails. But the popular trail centres in Scotland are already packed full in the summer months. It's almost a waste of time going because you know you're going to get log-jammed all day. 

He also said that he didn't think they damaged the trails, but admitted doing 15+mps going up hill! How does that work? And how is that not going to create conflict with people peddling at half your speed? 

I have idea why a bike shop would want to push these really expensive bikes that that make big profits on.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Here's the deal; compared with walking, a regular bicycle is something like 8X more efficient on level ground (1/8th the exercise). Add an electric motor and nearly the only energy consumed is the effort of keeping balance. Probably an unhealthy (low) level of activity fitness-wise.

But...

Add in hills, cargo and/or the need for speed and an e-bike (or electric motorcycle) can be every bit the workout a pedal-only bicycle can be. The downside is that this workout is going be happening at a much greater speed on e-bikes than on regular bikes.

Another thread discussing the merit of the adrenaline rush relative to e-bikes and regular bikes should be started.

Think you can't get a rush on an e-bike...?


----------



## Gavin -LightCarbon (Mar 14, 2017)

In your climbing way, there may be a few slopes that are too steep that you are not able to climb.
Even you make it, it will consume most of your power and you may not be able to have good condition in the following climbing.
E-bike enables you to conquer more hills with steep slopes, go different routes and see different scenery.
And you will be able to travel much longer distance.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> But the popular trail centres in Scotland are already packed full in the summer months. It's almost a waste of time going because you know you're going to get log-jammed all day.


Why aren't there more trails? Scotland would seem to have a lot of potential there.

Are all the trails in "trail centers" or just the downhill ones.
Who owns & operates the trail centers?


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

andytiedye said:


> Why aren't there more trails?


Scotland has a heck of a lot of trails. Most are walking routes, disused railways and roads, farm tracks, forest tracks and other countryside trails that offer good surfaces to cycle on even in remote places. These trails need a bit of homework and commitment.

There is also a growing population of trail-centres. The most famous of these is Glentress in the borders, we go there a lot. It has everything from green to black trails, free-ride area, it's brilliant to be honest. The problem is that over the last few years the popularity of these places has sky-rocketed and during the summer months they are too busy. Families and school trips clog the trails up with kids that cannot ride them. It's hopeless.

Most trail centres are owned by the local councils or the forestry commission. Some are very well maintained with good facilities, others are overgrown with bomb-craters on the trails. The type of trail varies a lot too. Some cover everything, some are just down-hill and some are so tame and poorly designed they're not worth going to.

So it doesn't matter what kind of riding you want to do, Scotland has it. I like the trail centres but riding in the countryside is the best I think. Some of the scenery is stunning and you never know what the trail is going to throw at you. You can have miles of old farm track and then it just...stops. And you've got to figure out how you are going to get to where you want to be without a path. It changes all the time, you wouldn't beleive how quickly a path can disappear. When you hit a deep bog it's just the worst! :0(

If you like cycling, Scotland is a great place to be. Apart from the rain. And the midges...


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Whiptastic said:


> This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:


Great video. While I don't mind sharing the trails with Pedal Assist E-bikes, I have no intention of purchasing one. I just hope the majority of e-bikers in the area keep their speed down when traveling uphill and on the flats where there could be potential trail conflicts with other riders and pedestrians. I do not believe the 250watt Pedal Assist bikes pose any threat to trail damage.



devnull said:


> I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can.


That is not exactly true. Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever.


I addressed the OP's question in my second response in this thread (the first post was to praise someone for using an e-motorbike as a commuter). You would know this, of course, if you actually took the time to comprehend what people had written instead of taking offense and talking out of your ass.



Gutch said:


> The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes.


Snowmobiles are fun, but I'd rather cross-country ski. ATVs are a blast, and so are dirt bikes, but they are inherently destructive, so I choose not to own or use them.

I've got buddies with jet boats who fish big water, but I prefer to wade rivers, creeks, and streams. I might catch more fish--or at least bigger fish--from a boat, but it's not for me.

As for e-motorcyclists not abandoning their bicycles, I don't know. My sample size is small. One of the guys I know pretty much only rides his e-motorbike now. The other, it hasn't come up.

I'm still friends with them and I still respect them, but I don't agree with their choice or their rationale. Yet, somehow, our lives will go on.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Mr P, thanks; your description of riding in Scotland was very interesting.

My opinions only - not to be confused with those of an intelligent individual.
This thread was initiated because I wondered if I would have considered an e-MTB when I was very fit. Probably not since all my riding pals were on MTB's, and I wouldn't have wanted to get the minimal workout assist would have provided. Don't know how I would have reacted to non-physically challenged riders on them (I have always championed extra allowances for those who are physically challenged), but I hope that I would have been as gracious as SHM, JBW and KJ in my "negativity".


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> That is not exactly true. Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage.


I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.

A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.

Government agencies, on the other hand, do not have "the right to set their own definitions" generally. A "right" is something that one has in the absence of government interference; government agencies can generally do only what the law specifically enables them to do (after all, they don't even exist without government interference). There would need to be an explicit statement that they could do so for this to be the case. Perhaps there is here but more likely there's just an assumption.

Even assuming this is the case, it would be unlikely, for example, that an agency could declare "Giant brand" bicycles off limits in a park. That's a reasonable example "a right to set their own definitions" but would most certainly be addressed by the courts. I think the hysteria needs to be tempered, especially when it comes from SuperModerators. It's certainly possible for a judge to view negatively a unilateral redefinition of an e-bike inconsistent with existing state law.

Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public. Even so-called statements of support are qualified with "so long as they ride slow around me" and they don't interfere with my personal riding entitlement. Trails are shared resources for the enjoyment of all, not just for you and the bike you choose to ride. Be part of the solution, not the problem.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

craigsj said:


> I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.
> 
> A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.
> 
> ...


Read AB-1096. Become an expert.

As Klurejr correctly states local government agencies in California are permitted to ban Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on biking trails under their jurisdiction. (And/or permit Class 3)

This decision can be up to a single individual; in CA State Parks it's the District Superintendent that makes the call. (They do take some guidance from Sacramento, which hasn't yet created a general e-bike policy)


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public.


Cyclists are part of the public, some of the best public there is IMHO.

A large portion of the public could care less if they built freeways through national parks but there are a substantial number of citizens (equestrians/hikers) that oppose the use of motors on many multi-use trails.

Not just cyclists.


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Cyclists are part of the public, some of the best public there is IMHO.


And some of the worst as well. Cyclists are no different.



J.B. Weld said:


> A large portion of the public could care less if they built freeways through national parks but there are a substantial number of citizens (equestrians/hikers) that oppose the use of motors on many multi-use trails.
> 
> Not just cyclists.


And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing. Furthermore, I don't think very many people agree with the arbitrary distinction of "motors" vs. "motor vehicles". There's a big difference between gas engines and 1hp electric assist. The ones who seem to care about "motors" appear to all be cyclists, especially those who feel entitled to exclude others from the club.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> *Again*, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public.





craigsj said:


> And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing.


Make up your mind, you're only arguing with yourself.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hdparrish said:


> I addressed the OP's question in my second response in this thread (the first post was to praise someone for using an e-motorbike as a commuter). You would know this, of course, if you actually took the time to comprehend what people had written instead of taking offense and talking out of your ass.
> 
> Snowmobiles are fun, but I'd rather cross-country ski. ATVs are a blast, and so are dirt bikes, but they are inherently destructive, so I choose not to own or use them.
> 
> ...


I take it back, your probably not a nice guy but whatever. You're too mellow for an ebike. I think the pace might disrupt your soy burger at lunch time.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

dman_mb1 said:


> It's interesting that one of the criticisms in this video is lack of speed on downhill or other fast sections of trail, though of course this is with Euro speed restrictions which I think are 5 mph (3 mph) less than in the US. So while most of the criticism here on mtbr relates to the motors and the power they're providing, to these bikeradar guys, the problem is that they're too slow!


They weren't really clear about what speed limit eMTB they were riding. IIRC one mentions 15mph and the other mentions 28mph. My best guess is they were riding the Euro 15mph limited eMTB (?). No one that I've met or read about testing out a 15mph eMTB likes the feeling you get on the faster flats or semi-flats when they hit the assist limiter "brick wall." Again IIRC speed limiters here in the USA are 20mph and 28mph, so not quite as problematic.


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

Moe Ped said:


> As Klurejr correctly states local government agencies in California are permitted to ban Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on biking trails under their jurisdiction. (And/or permit Class 3)


Not what he said at all.

"Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."​
"are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.

Now I don't really know whether that's true nor do I have any skin in it, but what I do know is that agencies do things all the time that exceed their authority. In Texas it is commonplace for agencies to enact policies in violation of law. They sometimes get caught but never punished. In CA, has any such ban been defended in court? An important question when it comes to declaring "rights". This generally boils down to how wealthy are those that are wronged and I'd guess e-bike riders aren't a powerful force (especially with the "support" they receive from fellow cyclists).

The purpose BTW wasn't to correct a post, it's to call attention to the fact that some posters make statements of fact in ignorance, including moderators. If you want to enable change you have to know the game. Comments like his are unhelpful.



Moe Ped said:


> This decision can be up to a single individual; in CA State Parks it's the District Superintendent that makes the call. (They do take some guidance from Sacramento, which hasn't yet created a general e-bike policy)


I believe they take "significant" guidance from Sacramento since they don't exist in absence of the state. It's more likely this is a matter of "might makes right" rather than anything else. What e-bike rider is going to challenge an official that asks him to leave? That would be true in my state as well, whether the legal authority exists or not.

Regardless, if you argue for the government's ability to discriminate then you are part of the problem. These agencies exist to enable public enjoyment of public resources, not to reserve them for the few at the cost of the many.


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Make up your mind, you're only arguing with yourself.


You're making yourself look bad, par for the course here on MTBR.

Saying that regular cyclists are the enemy of e-bikes is, of course, not the same as saying "all cyclists" are. I'm not stupid though it appears you think everyone else is.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

craigsj said:


> Not what he said at all.
> 
> "Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."​
> "are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.
> ...


I was melding what Klurejr had posted elsewhere. My bad.

The way the CA law was written was so local authorities can discriminate based on local conditions; a rather common sense provision IMHO. Unfortunately this leeway also allows for individual preferences/opinions to hold sway.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> I'm not stupid though it appears you think everyone else is.


Not true, I don't think _everyone_ is stupid.

_- the above comment was typed in a lighthearted and jovial manner._


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AFAIK, the office of the superintendent of parks in Orange County, CA decided NOT to allow e-bikes on trails in the parks (this information was from a friend who contacted them). The individual park Rangers that I asked confirmed this, but said it was legal for physically challenged individuals. The Irvine Conservancy, which manages 60,000 acres of private wilderness in the county has pretty much the same rules (delineated on their web site "Let's Go Outside").


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

craigsj said:


> Not what he said at all.
> 
> "Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."​
> "are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.
> ...


Regardless of what you happen to think about the way I explained it, Land Managers in California have the right to decide if they will or will not allow e-bikes of any kind to travel on the land they manage. I happen to believe my words implied that clearly and I apologize if you took it to mean something very different. I am not sure how it could be construed differently, but whatever... That is the fact of the matter.

As for unhelpful posts... perhaps spend less time dissecting the way something is stated online? I was merely clarifying a mistaken post:


> I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can.


That statement quoted is flat out incorrect.

Also, before you make anymore comments, please go visit the forum rules and become familiar with them:
http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/before-you-post-here-ebike-forum-rules-read-me-1022310.html


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gavin -LightCarbon said:


> In your climbing way, there may be a few slopes that are too steep that you are not able to climb.
> Even you make it, it will consume most of your power and you may not be able to have good condition in the following climbing.
> E-bike enables you to conquer more hills with steep slopes, go different routes and see different scenery.
> And you will be able to travel much longer distance.


 Travel longer ? How so? Until the battery runs out? Then what? I've done 50 miles off road and 80 on road ( touring) in a day. No motor needed. Farther than that?


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutch said:


> I think the pace might disrupt your soy burger at lunch time.


Can't say I've ever had a soy burger. However, I'll raise a toast to you tonight while enjoying a beer and a bacon jalapeno cheeseburger.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

craigsj said:


> I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.
> 
> A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.
> 
> ...


 Umm, bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else. And need to be defined differently. Motor vehicles on the trail don't seem to be " part" of the solution. Maybe in areas with lots of trails, lots of motos, and few users with little conflicts. Many trail areas have lots of user issues, crowding and conflicts. And getting trails shut down to all wheeled users would be a "problem" for me.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If you only have a limited amount of time in the day to ride, such as a two hour block, then an eMTB will let you cover more ground in the same amount of time. There is also an undeniable appeal to having "seven league boots" and being able to magnify your input up to superman levels when wanted.....


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

craigsj said:


> And some of the worst as well. Cyclists are no different.
> 
> And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing. Furthermore, I don't think very many people agree with the arbitrary distinction of "motors" vs. "motor vehicles". There's a big difference between gas engines and 1hp electric assist. The ones who seem to care about "motors" appear to all be cyclists, especially those who feel entitled to exclude others from the club.


 It has a motor. Not arbitrary. Usually there are these things call trail rules and regulations. As in no motor vehicles. Everyone with a bike is welcome to join the club. Where bikes are legal that is. Not excluding any one, just leave your emotorcycle at home, or on the street, or where they are legal like some atv /ORV areas. Easy. Adding a motor to your bike makes it be in a different club. The problem lies with thinking that they are in the same club. And the key to most of the talk here.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

fos'l said:


> This thread was initiated because I wondered if I would have considered an e-MTB when I was very fit. Probably not since all my riding pals were on MTB's, and I wouldn't have wanted to get the minimal workout assist would have provided.


I'm older than I would like to be and a lot less fit than I used to be but I still wouldn't want an eBike. I hate the way today's society is happy with the dumbing down of just about everything. People aren't prepared to put any effort into anything any more.

When I was a kid there would be fifty kids playing football on the park outside our house. Now there are none. They are all playing computer games. Peddling is a major component of cycling. If you don't want to peddle, go watch TV?

I must agree with you that of course this does not apply to people who are disabled in some way.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If you only have a limited amount of time in the day to ride, such as a two hour block, then an eMTB will let you cover more ground in the same amount of time. There is also an undeniable appeal to having "seven league boots" and being able to magnify your input up to superman levels when wanted.....


 So my two hour ride is somehow diminished because I don't have a motor? Maybe distance is not the only measure of the fun scale?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Mr P, not to argue (and I'm too old to have played video games as a kid, and my kids, now including granddaughter, all enjoy outside activities), if I implied that I NEED assist, I was wrong. My only contention is that I enjoy the change of pace the e-Mtb provides and it supplements, not replaces my MTB riding (that is, I add it to the amount of MTB activity that would be experienced). This is just to clarify, I don't care what anyone thinks of my position.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

fos'l said:


> Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:
> 
> 1) Bikepacking with a big load.
> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
> ...


To follow and film Absa Cape Epic. Ex-riders/winners on ebikes. Amazing footage. You need one to follow these super humans!

Stage 1 today (20 March )
7500 vert over 62 miles in 95 degree heat: winning time 4 hr 25 min...avg speed 14.25 mph!!!

Un. B. Leeevable!!


----------



## tonylapy (Nov 1, 2016)

These old 72 year legs start wishing for an electric bike 3 miles up but after making that last mile I'm glad I made it under my own power. But as far as e-bikes go, If everyone is agreement that it's ok to be on the same trails by everyone involved, I'm ok with that. Just don't want my beautiful Pisgah trails shut because of illegal activities.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> So my two hour ride is somehow diminished because I don't have a motor? Maybe distance is not the only measure of the fun scale?


 After a few dozen times around the loop over a couple of months it gets a bit old...... Doubling the miles covered in the same amount of time staves off the repetition boredom.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

One thing I see a lot of confusion on is the difference between a bike with pedal assist and now the becoming more common, electric motor add on systems that have standard motorcycle type throttle control (thumb lever).

Pedal assist I truly believe is a good thing. Is still requires some rider input, means the rider is moving not riding a battery powered motorcycle that looks like a mountain bike. Even the couch potatoes get exercise as it gets them moving and outside. As well as disabled can come enjoy the same trails we do. Ffs there's days on some trails I wish I had that little extra push up a climb. But the negatives after that aren't worth it, not even close.

There is truly NO difference besides noise and air pollution between the 2, throttle controlled e-bikes and motorcycles/ATVs/dirt bikes. But everyone puts them together or thinks they should be the same thing.

As to why some trails have even simple pedal assist banned doesn't make sense. But when you have the decent number of disrespectful people that don't care beyond themselves, it makes sense just to blanket cover the matter. Puts an end to the problem. 

IMHO anyone caught riding anything EXCEPT true oem pedal assist on trails that e-bikes are banned, their bikes should be confiscated and auctioned off. Money going to maintaining said trails or donated to organizations that help bring people into cycling (like getting bikes for kids to get them off the couch).

Some may not like my views but from a purely factual stand point, pedal assist and e-bikes should be separated. And those they refuse to play by the rules should be made examples of. Again excluding pedal assist bikes for those that have a reason to need them, those using for fun need to stay where they are legal.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I really appreciate my eMontague BBSHD Rohloff combo when it's 90 degrees out and I have the Travoy trailer with 10 gallons of mogas on it, and it's a few miles into a headwind to get back to the airport. Trail riding is only part of my riding with it, but almost never just a dedicated mtbr trail, (not sure there is even such a thing in my area, thank God) all our trails here are a bit more inclusive then that. You guys need to get it out of your heads that an ebike rider isn't getting any exercise, and even if true, so frigging what! At 67 I'm the same weight (OK within 5 lbs) of my high school weight, and I get plenty of "exercise" (I call it work) the rest of the time, I ride an ebike because it is like peddling in a dream. The assumption that I need to justify my riding choice slays me, what makes you think I give a flying F*** what you think?! They are simply more fun, get used to it they are not going anywhere. 

BTW, I had two other Montagues, non e assist, in the previous 20 years, and road bikes before that, plus lots of motorcycles. A good ebike is more fun them any of them.

SYNERGY: "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." I drive a Toyota Prius, they borrowed the term to describe how their cars work, they got it right. Also BTW: 99.5% of my few thousand miles of eriding has been using solar, wind, and hydro power, my own, to recharge the battery. Just another thing I like about ebikes, I can provide the free electricity for them.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> After a few dozen times around the loop over a couple of months it gets a bit old...... Doubling the miles covered in the same amount of time staves off the repetition boredom.


So what happens after a few dozen times of that? More power, faster bike? I hate to say it but, maybe you're boring, not the ride.


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

Moe Ped said:


> The way the CA law was written was so local authorities can discriminate based on local conditions; a rather common sense provision IMHO. Unfortunately this leeway also allows for individual preferences/opinions to hold sway.


Yeah, you want a uniform policy with exceptions that are allowed as needed. When a deviation from policy occurs it needs to be justified. Otherwise the public can't know from park to park what the rules are.


----------



## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> One thing I see a lot of confusion on is the difference between a bike with pedal assist and now the becoming more common, electric motor add on systems that have standard motorcycle type throttle control (thumb lever).
> 
> ...
> 
> Some may not like my views but from a purely factual stand point, pedal assist and e-bikes should be separated.


I appreciate this perspective but also appreciate the counter argument. How the power is metered out isn't the issue, responsible vs. reckless usage is.

However, to make an argument in your favor, I'd add that there's a practical limit to how much power can be used strictly with pedal assist. It's simply impractical to map enormous power in a way proportional to human power/torque. Those who believe limiting power is important might support PAS only as a way of achieving that goal.



RAKC Ind said:


> And those they refuse to play by the rules should be made examples of.


Can't agree with this. Punishments should fit the crime. It's hardly a capital offense.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I DON"T BELIEVE IN POACHING, but have done it when my wife and I were out, got slowed down by a flat or whatever and were on the trail after it was "closed'; also have been on trails that I later found out were prohibited. If caught, I'm prepared to pay for these and any other misdemeanors that I incur, but seems like some here think the perpetrators should be hung at dawn. By these rules any vehicle speeding violation should be dealt with in the same way. What a travesty. I'm done with this crap; too many respondents that sound like ten year old asylum inhabitants.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

fos'l said:


> AFAIK, the office of the superintendent of parks in Orange County, CA decided NOT to allow e-bikes on trails in the parks...


Very sad, if true. I went the site you referenced and could not find anything that states e-bikes are not allowed. I did find details for handicap devices which does not apply to non-handicap e-bike riders. Can you provide a link that specifically disallows them?

Maybe this upcoming OC Parks Trail Subcommittee Meeting will be of interest to Orange County e-bike riders:

Orange County, California - Trails Subcommittee


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> One thing I see a lot of confusion on is the difference between a bike with pedal assist and now the becoming more common, electric motor add on systems that have standard motorcycle type throttle control (thumb lever).
> 
> Pedal assist I truly believe is a good thing. Is still requires some rider input, means the rider is moving not riding a battery powered motorcycle that looks like a mountain bike. Even the couch potatoes get exercise as it gets them moving and outside. As well as disabled can come enjoy the same trails we do. Ffs there's days on some trails I wish I had that little extra push up a climb. But the negatives after that aren't worth it, not even close.
> 
> ...


 Motor vehicles are not allowed on the multi use trails where I ride for the most part( MA) How I feel has nothing to do with it. And noise and air pollution IS the problem. So allow just PAS. How does one tell them apart by looking? You can't. 750 watts 2,000 watts etc. Controller over rides. Going to put a ranger at the trail head? Not likely. And pedal assist bikes are E bikes. Motor or no motor? Very simple.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> After a few dozen times around the loop over a couple of months it gets a bit old...... Doubling the miles covered in the same amount of time staves off the repetition boredom.


You only ride one trail? Ride it in a different direction. I have an almost endless supply of trails I can ride from my house. Some takes a short pavement ride to connect.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Another couple of tidbits I'll throw out is that almost all DIY e-bike kits come with controllers that have PAS functionality; the e-bikes I've built up lately have both PAS sensors and throttles and I can switch between the two modes with a push of a button.

Worth mentioning is that most kits have pedal sensors of the "cadence" variety (about $15 purchased separately) and the more sophisticated "torque" sensors (like what a Levo & etc. use) are much more expensive at around $200 for the part.

Another thing on the horizon (I predict) are ghost throttles that would be undetectable short of a tech tear-down; a magnetic strip built into a glove and a Hall sensor hidden in the bar grip. (Feasible; yes---I've already built a mock-up)

So to the point made by others; "motor or no motor".


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

I just simply hope riders begin to set an example of how not to blame exhaustion for inappropriate behavior, and be more classy. If pedal-assist e-mtbs are the change needed to shake up the status quo of what's bad is overlooked and "socially accepted", so be it. Keep putting the pressure on. The world needs less rotten people to go with all the demand for a less rotten future Earth.

I'm not going to judge anything by the "cover". E-bikes fascinate me with the possibilities. Getting a tailwind yesterday, on a ride that tested my endurance limit, really really was welcome. It made me wonder about an ebike. Knowing land manager, they want something as low impact as possible to the habitat. The first thing that springs to mind is big tires, with very low pressures, and low torque. People avoid big tires since they're afraid of the rotational weight and acceleration (based on their own leg power). What if they had power from the bike to make up for that? The extra 20 lbs e-bike parts add don't seem to be any worse in terms of trail impact, compared to someone that weighs 20 lbs more on a bike that weighs 20 lbs less, considering it's sprung weight. It probably even improves the ride experience, being low and centered, improving suspension sensitivity too.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> I just simply hope riders begin to set an example of how not to blame exhaustion for inappropriate behavior, and be more classy. If pedal-assist e-mtbs are the change needed to shake up the status quo of what's bad is overlooked and "socially accepted", so be it. Keep putting the pressure on. The world needs less rotten people to go with all the demand for a less rotten future Earth.


That is deep^

What does it mean?


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Means that people do bad things. Such bad things are overlooked, due to understanding that there was "justifiable" cause (ex. exhaustion, limited on resources like water, time, and daylight), and also since lots of people do such bad things. Such things become socially accepted. It's a common theme in the world.

In terms of mtb, that means using cheater lines or widening the trail (strava lines, cut turns/switchbacks, avoiding obstacles & wet spots, etc.), modifying the trail illegally (making an awkward part of a trail "roll" or flow better), not utilizing "give and take" in terms of trail usage (little to no contribution to trail upkeep), littering (ex. it's biodegradable!), etc.

E-mtbs seemingly need to gain trust. If they act all gentlemanly/ladylike, perhaps they can set the example of how we all should behave. Mtn bikers are no saints; mtn bikers looking down on e-mtbers is like the pot calling the kettle black.

We are definitely not a very low impact group of trail users. Ask yourself, do you think the trails are better off without you? Do you "we" as a community have given back plenty, through organized efforts that you and/or your fellows contributed to? IMBA has insisted that the trails are being poorly designed, with such trails being the reason that users behave in an unsavory manner, leading to so-called "trail highways" that cost $$$ per mile. e-bikes are fine on such trails, but a vocal group of mtn bikers seem to criticize it.

The motor seems to be the key to unlock all sorts of things we need. One can carry more supplies and equipment (including trail tools, or professional equipment like cameras). One can stop afford to shop for durable equipment, like strong wide rims and grippy durable tires. Equipment may be built using more sustainable materials. More mountains and hillsides seem to become more accessible, since steeper inclines seem less intimidating.

Think low impact. There's more to bikes than fitness. It's a form of efficient transportation, that utilizes human fitness. Is there anyone that thinks that they have more than enough fitness? Even the most fit enjoys a draft and tailwind to conserve their power. I see the e-mtb as an enabler, and see the users as possible trail wreckers. The tool doesn't make the user into a trail wrecker. It's supposed to give users more capability.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> Means that people do bad things.......................
> The motor seems to be the key to unlock all sorts of things we need.


Ok got it, motors are the key to harmony and bliss. Who knew?


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

zooey said:


> Think low impact.


Low impact is zero motors; ride your bike from where you live to whatever trail you want to enjoy; then ride back home. (stopping at a pub to regale the day's adventure is permissible)


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> So what happens after a few dozen times of that? More power, faster bike? I hate to say it but, maybe you're boring, not the ride.


 Maybe, but there it is.......

In the last year or so I have ridden the trail system in Topanga State Park close to two hundred times. Living in the heart of Los Angeles there is simply not a whole lot of choice when it comes to trails, especially those that do not require loading up the truck and spending time on the freeways to get to the trailhead. I currently ride a 17/18 mile route in about an hour and 3/4, which is about all the time I can devote to biking on a given day. There are a few side trips off of the main route, but it is essentially an out and back trip with two side loops included and after so many times there are very few surprises as far as the trail goes, meeting other riders and seeing all the game on the trail makes up for the sameness.....


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ Hmmm. Living in the middle of a giant concrete city there are few good mt bike trails. Who knew. Do some weekend trips( with truck) for a change of pace?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Weekends get busy with out of town travel: we are shopping for a farm/ranch property and are looking throughout a very large part of the country. I've brought the bike in the 5er a few times, but it mostly never got used: it seemed a bit selfish to drive around looking at properties most of the day and then leave my wife alone in the RV with the dog while I take the truck someplace to ride and play. We take scenic walks with our GSD instead. 

Chesboro Canyon is only a few miles away and has an extensive trail network, but I have no idea if a Class 1 is permitted. I've never seen a ranger there on other hiking visits and the signage is the same as at Topanga, but with a different agency in authority (federal IIRC), so who knows? The signage at park entrances still has not been changed to clarify just what is permitted by a given authority which probably results in ebikes being where they should not be and vice versa. Anyway, if I'm not sure about access, I'll just stay out: I've spoken to the rangers at Topanga and they are OK with my class 1.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Got a bike without a motor? Seems like a solution?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> ^^^ Got a bike without a motor? Seems like a solution?


 I tried that years ago: the cost/benefit ratio was not working for me....... Too much work for the reward. Ebikes are much better.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Too much work for the reward.


That is the exact kind of comment and mentality that drives so many on this site nuts and inspires quite a lot of anger towards ebike proponents.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I tried that years ago: the cost/benefit ratio was not working for me....... Too much work for the reward. Ebikes are much better.


 Just do some awesome mt bike video games. Or get a motorcycle. You said Chesboro is a few miles away, what am I missing here? Too much work? Hmmm. Maybe you should take up golf?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> Means that people do bad things. Such bad things are overlooked, due to understanding that there was "justifiable" cause (ex. exhaustion, limited on resources like water, time, and daylight), and also since lots of people do such bad things. Such things become socially accepted. It's a common theme in the world.
> 
> In terms of mtb, that means using cheater lines or widening the trail (strava lines, cut turns/switchbacks, avoiding obstacles & wet spots, etc.), modifying the trail illegally (making an awkward part of a trail "roll" or flow better), not utilizing "give and take" in terms of trail usage (little to no contribution to trail upkeep), littering (ex. it's biodegradable!), etc.
> 
> ...


 Wow, where to start. Here in MA and else where( every where) study after study has shown that hiking and mt biking have similar trail impacts. Trails are NOT better off without me. And my mt bike trail advocates, trail builders and caretakers. 1,000's of man hours every year here in New England that other wise would not have been done. Mt biking does not need a motor. Bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else.
Efficient? Yup, e bikes are great for commuting. And the motor is in your legs. Try some coffee and bacon. And we usually hike in for trail days. The wheelbarrow, buckets, mcleods, and rogue hoes don't do well on bikes. And steep hills? Try a big cup of HTFU. Uggg.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> Just do some awesome mt bike video games. Or get a motorcycle. You said Chesboro is a few miles away, what am I missing here? Too much work? Hmmm. Maybe you should take up golf?


 Chesboro is a Federal Park and I believe the new CA law on ebikes does not apply there. Are you suggesting that I ride there illegally?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> That is the exact kind of comment and mentality that drives so many on this site nuts and inspires quite a lot of anger towards ebike proponents.


 Why? What does my personal decision have to do with you and your ride or anyone else? Unless I physically contact you how does my presence on a permitted trail affect you in any possible way?

Are the people who hike the trail to the top of a mountain driven nuts and inspired to anger by those who took their car to the parking lot on top? And if they are is it reasonable?

Are weekend road riders driven nuts and inspired to anger by ebikes passing them on the back roads and bike paths and if they are is that reasonable?

Do stairwalkers resent elevator riders and are they being reasonable if they do?

For that matter, where is the resentment of the horsie set? Lord knows, the horse is doing all the work! Where is the outrage?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Chesboro is a Federal Park and I believe the new CA law on ebikes does not apply there. Are you suggesting that I ride there illegally?


 Uggg< slaps head. I'm suggesting you ride a bike without a motor, those seem to be allowed. Too much work? As lots of things are. Or just do the same laps at that one place. One does build strength, stamina and endurance after a few seasons on a bike. Or any sport for that matter. I never thought of biking as a cost/benefit. I reserve that for bond funds or really pricey bourbon. I have great legs( imho) , nice resting heart rate, a fabo 110/78 BP. Cost of that is? Pedal under you own power in the woods for hours with your friends? Priceless. Not sitting in my car for 2,100 bike commuter miles last year, think of the gas savings ! Going for some kind of a bike ride for 176 days last year? Worth millions. Either a commute, tour, errand, or mt bike ride. I guess everyone has their own reward/benefit/cost. Mine doesn't include a motor for off road trails. YRMV.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Why? What does my personal decision have to do with you and your ride or anyone else? Unless I physically contact you how does my presence on a permitted trail affect you in any possible way?
> 
> Are the people who hike the trail to the top of a mountain driven nuts and inspired to anger by those who took their car to the parking lot on top? And if they are is it reasonable?
> 
> ...


 But the hikers aren't complaining because they can't do it without a motor. And weekend road rides are used to mixing it up with motor vehicles on the pavement. And golf, you get to use a cart and drive around all day, plus beers. Better cost benefit with golf?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> But the hikers aren't complaining because they can't do it without a motor. And weekend road rides are used to mixing it up with motor vehicles on the pavement. And golf, you get to use a cart and drive around all day, plus beers. Better cost benefit with golf?


 So since you are used to horse riders doing nothing but sit while the animal does all the work and the roadies are used to cars and ebikes passing by that's OK, but since you aren't used to ebikes (yet) on trails that's not OK? Sounds like the "problem" is in your perception and acceptance of familiar things and discomfort with change and the unfamiliar.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> Uggg< slaps head. I'm suggesting you ride a bike without a motor, those seem to be allowed. Too much work? As lots of things are. Or just do the same laps at that one place. One does build strength, stamina and endurance after a few seasons on a bike. Or any sport for that matter. I never thought of biking as a cost/benefit. I reserve that for bond funds or really pricey bourbon. I have great legs( imho) , nice resting heart rate, a fabo 110/78 BP. Cost of that is? Pedal under you own power in the woods for hours with your friends? Priceless. Not sitting in my car for 2,100 bike commuter miles last year, think of the gas savings ! Going for some kind of a bike ride for 176 days last year? Worth millions. Either a commute, tour, errand, or mt bike ride. I guess everyone has their own reward/benefit/cost. Mine doesn't include a motor for off road trails. YRMV.


 I got rid of my last push bike about 10 years ago since it was way too much work for the few downhills. Ebikes are a lot more fun..... BTW my BP is 120/80 and resting heart rate is at the low side of the normal range. An hour of brisk trail walking a day seems to be all it takes, but I'm only 64 so we'll see what happens in the long run.....


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Travel longer ? How so? Until the battery runs out? Then what? I've done 50 miles off road and 80 on road ( touring) in a day. No motor needed. Farther than that?


That's ALOT of bacon and coffee!


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> I got rid of my last push bike about 10 years ago since it was way too much work for the few downhills.


What is a push bike?


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm not an advocate for people riding laps on trail for fitness. Sounds like roadies on dirt...

I'd rather experience the setting, all of it leading up to the end of the trail, and be satisfied with that, able to get on with experiencing everything else in life. I'm not intending to be a life long cyclist, out there to maintain some sort of routine without strong meaning, besides "fun" or maybe escape or stress-relief. Life's too short for that. There's countless other things to do for fun and stress relief. Fitness gained from cycling doesn't help me run faster, swim faster, or jump higher, at least not any more than if I gained fitness form some other activity (ex. skating).

Seems illogical, maybe hypocritical, that people spend money on better equipment to enhance their experience, better leverage their strengths, and/or make up for their weaknesses, but draw a line at motors. There's a blurred line at doping, with various legal supplements. I see seriously significant enhancement, leverage, and "make-up" from ebikes. You can't get that from spending $1000 extra on weight weenie upgrades like carbon wheels. While you're training to perhaps be able to consider going on some epics, I'm looking to schedule visiting them at the best time of the year, rather than hoping my fitness is ready at those dates, or planning them around my fitness at not so nice times of the year. The voice of reason has no doubt that it's way more time and cost-effective to go e-bike...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> Seems illogical, maybe hypocritical, that people spend money on better equipment to enhance their experience, better leverage their strengths, and/or make up for their weaknesses, but draw a line at motors. There's a blurred line at doping, with various legal supplements. I see seriously significant enhancement, leverage, and "make-up" from ebikes. You can't get that from spending $1000 extra on weight weenie upgrades like carbon wheels.


Fascinating! You could achieve even more "make up" by using a proper motorbike without the bothersome "turning the pedals" dealio.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm seriously curious about that push bike thing, the first thing I thought of was something like this-









but maybe this?









I don't think I'd enjoy a push bike much either.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think I'd enjoy a push bike much either.


My toddler grandson enjoys the one that he rides around while chasing the cat.


----------



## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> View attachment 1128173


I dunno, J.B. I think that could work for you.

Top hat and tails--that's ridin' with style!


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> So since you are used to horse riders doing nothing but sit while the animal does all the work and the roadies are used to cars and ebikes passing by that's OK, but since you aren't used to ebikes (yet) on trails that's not OK? Sounds like the "problem" is in your perception and acceptance of familiar things and discomfort with change and the unfamiliar.


 E bikes aren't legal the most part where I ride. Not going to happen. The problem. " It's too hard, too much work, not worth it, the only way it COULD possibly work is to add a motor" I suggest another "sport" that's not so hard. Really. YRMV. I guess we'll agree to disagree.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> I'm not an advocate for people riding laps on trail for fitness. Sounds like roadies on dirt...
> 
> I'd rather experience the setting, all of it leading up to the end of the trail, and be satisfied with that, able to get on with experiencing everything else in life. I'm not intending to be a life long cyclist, out there to maintain some sort of routine without strong meaning, besides "fun" or maybe escape or stress-relief. Life's too short for that. There's countless other things to do for fun and stress relief. Fitness gained from cycling doesn't help me run faster, swim faster, or jump higher, at least not any more than if I gained fitness form some other activity (ex. skating).
> 
> Seems illogical, maybe hypocritical, that people spend money on better equipment to enhance their experience, better leverage their strengths, and/or make up for their weaknesses, but draw a line at motors. There's a blurred line at doping, with various legal supplements. I see seriously significant enhancement, leverage, and "make-up" from ebikes. You can't get that from spending $1000 extra on weight weenie upgrades like carbon wheels. While you're training to perhaps be able to consider going on some epics, I'm looking to schedule visiting them at the best time of the year, rather than hoping my fitness is ready at those dates, or planning them around my fitness at not so nice times of the year. The voice of reason has no doubt that it's way more time and cost-effective to go e-bike...


 Dude tighten up that tin foil hat. I'm doing it wrong. No cross training works? So my swimming, walking, hiking and trail work doesn't help me on a bike? Who knew. And yoga and stretching, junk. Bummers. Motors and doping are upgrades? Nice. You in management for USA cycling or the tour de Farce? And most would disagree with you about lighter bike parts and wheels. Great upgrades. Easier to then pedal up grades. No motors needed. And fitness? Umm, ride a bike? Try it without a motor, might get some more fitness that way. And no, time management never comes to play for me. Usually it's will I be home for dinner. One can always carry a sandwich or leave some food in the car. And bikes don't have motors. Really. They are something else. Not an upgrade. Yikes.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Why? What does my personal decision have to do with you and your ride or anyone else? Unless I physically contact you how does my presence on a permitted trail affect you in any possible way?
> 
> Are the people who hike the trail to the top of a mountain driven nuts and inspired to anger by those who took their car to the parking lot on top? And if they are is it reasonable?
> 
> ...


I did not say it was my opinion, I have no problem with people who want to put in less work for the reward, heck I do shuttle runs on occasion and hit the lifts in the summer at the Bike Parks.

But many people on this site see them as "cheating" in a way and your statement that the reward is not worth the effort of pedaling yourself to the top of the hill without the aid of a motor just proves it in their minds that e-bikers are "cheating"/"lazy", etc. etc.

Will I get an e-bike, no, i enjoy earning my decent when I do my local rides each week.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Not ALL ebikers are cheating or lazy. This is getting retarded. I just heard today that a local guy here rips the roads with a tdf guy. To keep up. Is he lazy or cheating? Doubtful.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Is it still "cheating" if the guy with the ebike is hauling the beer?

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gutch said:


> I just heard today that a local guy here rips the roads with a tdf guy. To keep up. Is he lazy or cheating?


Cheating. Obviously!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr. Pig, this rider would eat you for breakfast with his over easy eggs! He'd also drop me like lead.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Mr. Pig, this rider would eat you for breakfast with his over easy eggs!


And what's your point? If he's using an electric motor to keep up with a fitter rider then yip, that would qualify as cheating. Ask any professional cycling body!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The point is the guy whether he is riding an ebike or not is incredibly strong. It's just riding, not a sanctioned event. What's the harm? Ever anti ebiker here's issue is trail access, and I agree. Issues beyond that really aren't valid. My Ebikes are completely legal here.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

"Why would a fit rider want to e-MTB?"

Why not? Personally, I'd prefer a full on dirt bike (motorcycle), but to each his own.


----------



## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

Yes I would like to as well but there are some issues with that in my case. Full on dirt bikes require much greater distances to get to for riding for my area so no rides after work on the weeks day like I can do on mountain bikes. Also I can do my mountain biking safely enough all alone and I almost always have cell service. Where I would be riding a dirt bike there is no cell service and with dirt bikes weighing 245 lbs and much higher speeds not only are severe injuries way more likely but I also very rarely have a riding partner so I would end up crippled up all alone in the mountains. That is my main reason I ride mountain bikes and will end up with an Ebike. I have extremely steep sections of trails where I have yet to see anyone do anything other than push their bike up. The Ebike should allow for continual riding regardless of steep inclines.


----------



## northernfatbike (Oct 27, 2016)

Wow some people here are wound up pretty tight. I have 2 e bikes, one is a road bike that I used all last summer putting a thousand miles on and getting exercise as well, and i would be the first to admit not as much exercise as a traditional bicycle. The 2 nd is a fat bike i adapted to mid drive electric. Where I live we have winter and snow for at least 4 months of the year and there is only 1 dedicated MTB trail I know of near my city and I don,t ride there. Because here in Winnipeg there are literally hundreds of places I can ride ranging from 2 track sand to rock to dirt trails that have no rules at all except a few where automobiles are prohibited. Di I care if some rider calls me a cheater, no not at all, don't give a damn, I just ride away


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

northernfatbike said:


> Wow some people here are wound up pretty tight. I have 2 e bikes, one is a road bike that I used all last summer putting a thousand miles on and getting exercise as well, and i would be the first to admit not as much exercise as a traditional bicycle. The 2 nd is a fat bike i adapted to mid drive electric. Where I live we have winter and snow for at least 4 months of the year and there is only 1 dedicated MTB trail I know of near my city and I don,t ride there. Because here in Winnipeg there are literally hundreds of places I can ride ranging from 2 track sand to rock to dirt trails that have no rules at all except a few where automobiles are prohibited. Di I care if some rider calls me a cheater, no not at all, don't give a damn, I just ride away[/QUOTE
> 
> Cheater


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I don't want an e-bike as I can ride anything I want under human power and enjoy the exercise, but I got one of these ^^^ e-hikers. My friends like to hike, but I don't and maybe because of too much biking my hiking muscles aren't great so I am always at the back.

With an e-hiker I get a lot of the benefits of hiking [hanging out with friends, fresh air, some exercise, etc...] without actually having to work on my hiking fitness. I can stay at the front of my friends' hiking group and sometimes I do 2 or 3 hikes in a day when normally I'd just do a single ride.

Don't worry the e-hiker won't hike on its own! I have to be awake and moving my arms and legs. It's electric so it doesn't make any noise and it's just like as if I was hiking on my own except I am a bit heavier. I've had some people complain about my e-hiker on the trails, but there is are always going to be negative nellies right?

I mean if hikers are allowed on a trail than there is no reason I shouldn't be allowed to e-hike! My speed is limited to 7mph unless I hit turbo and then I can do a short burst of 14mph. I save that for hills where I like to blast past puny human powered hikers! So much fun. I have about a 40 mile range, but I can keep spare battery packs in the car to let me do multiple hikes each day.

Anyways...just thought I would share. Getting outside and to the top of a mountain is so much fun. Especially now where it's more like the effort of getting a couple beers from the kitchen instead of...you know....like walking on my own. So glad technology is improving our lives like this! :thumbsup:


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Please don't piss off the hikers! Does that suit have a cooler? If so, I'm in. Oh and when you ride a Levo, no human power gets you nowhere.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

vikb said:


> I don't want an e-bike as I can ride anything I want under human power and enjoy the exercise, but I got one of these ^^^ e-hikers. My friends like to hike, but I don't and maybe because of too much biking my hiking muscles aren't great so I am always at the back.
> 
> With an e-hiker I get a lot of the benefits of hiking [hanging out with friends, fresh air, some exercise, etc...] without actually having to work on my hiking fitness. I can stay at the front of my friends' hiking group and sometimes I do 2 or 3 hikes in a day when normally I'd just do a single ride.
> 
> ...


 Today it's a joke, but what will you do when a Wounded Warrior shows up on a trail with one? And then they trickle down to the general public who can get a doctors note and claim a disability. There is a lot of money and effort being spent on mobility for those with spinal injuries, this is the goal: a fully powered exoskeleton....... Once the batteries have the capacity the devices will be ready.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

WoodlandHills said:


> Once the batteries have the capacity the devices will be ready.


I agree it's only a matter of time. The future of humanity is probably not going to be doing anything physical beyond pressing some buttons or moving a joystick and probably that too will be modernized to straight up mental control.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

*Everything you need to be happy...*

When I read all the posts of those promoting e-bikes for "exercise" I can't help but think of the cartoon "Wall-E":






No offense intended to those with legit handicaps.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Turn off my Turbo road bikes and see if you get a work out! And yes, I do it all the time. The exercise debate is useless. Who cares.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Who cares.


Why do you?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I have first hand experienced a workout on e road and emtb's. All pedal assist of course. As said before, Trail usage is your only viable concern, everything else is just judgmental elitism or bike snob. Which one are you?


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Why do you?


 for you tire tracks may you understand Report to moderator * Logged

CGCruzan 
Training wheels on

Posts: 7

Re: My first sighting of a guy with an electric assist bike at TRTP 
« Reply #20 on: Today at 10:09:35 PM »

Quote
* * * *The man and machine in question is a close friend of mine -an uncle, to be more personal.. Also the guy who introduced me to mountain biking over 20 years ago as well as the reason my dad bought me a '94 Giant Yukon. He wasn't always limited to an ebike. He would let me ride his Rockhopper when rapid fire shifters and Rockshox front suspension forks were the new hot thing. He's been to Moab and ridden Porcupine Ridge, Snowshoe and everything in between. Done it all and bought the tshirt for real. But that was when he was young and able.
* * * *I'm sure that if not for his health, he would be on a regular old simple-machine mountain bike just like the vast majority of us. For those of you that do have family/friends whose health would otherwise thwart their opportunity to enjoy our trails, I'm sure you and they both appreciate the assistance provided by these battery powered apparatuses. 
* * * *I've worked on and ridden his bike and, while it does have some power, it is not capable of rooster-tailing through the woods rutting up and destroying our trails. Especially with an overweight rider with heart issues on the saddle. That's not what he is out there to do. He is aware of the scrutiny and frowns he must face and in turn plays by the rules even more strictly. I mean no disrespect, but I am just not seeing the reckless thing. I know at times I probably appear reckless while I'm going over the bar after clipping a root with my crank. I know I've wiped out landing big jumps with the rider behind me landing ..on me.. so if you ride with me be warned! We are all guilty of some kind of trail infraction, I'm sure, whether it's barreling down Hesitation Point as an uphill rider swerves to the side or riding the trail while it's a little too "yellow". Nevertheless, for the most part, we are a pretty intelligent, honest and stand-up breed of enthusiasts. That being said, I intend to pedal along with this alleged rogue, white-knuckled heathen this season and seasons to come as we have not had the chance to ride together for quite some time. 
* * * *Just for the record, I ride a blue (Miami green) rigid Trek Stache plus bike and my name is Clint. I've ridden with and seen several of you out on the trails we share and I've been an IMBA/HMBA member for 3 years now. I love, love, LOVE to get away from it all out there. Keeps me healthy and keeps me sane and I think the mountain bicycle is the coolest non-living evolution in the history of earth. I hope to have a civil conversation if any of us meet out there in the woods. Thanks for reading


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Trail usage is your only viable concern


That's all I need.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> for you tire tracks may you understand Report to moderator * Logged
> 
> CGCruzan
> Training wheels on
> ...


 So ebikes legal where you ride? Said rider has an ADA HP card? Thats all that matters.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

vikb said:


> I don't want an e-bike as I can ride anything I want under human power and enjoy the exercise, but I got one of these ^^^ e-hikers. My friends like to hike, but I don't and maybe because of too much biking my hiking muscles aren't great so I am always at the back.
> 
> With an e-hiker I get a lot of the benefits of hiking [hanging out with friends, fresh air, some exercise, etc...] without actually having to work on my hiking fitness. I can stay at the front of my friends' hiking group and sometimes I do 2 or 3 hikes in a day when normally I'd just do a single ride.
> 
> ...


I nominate this for post of the year, that is hilarious. well done sir, well done indeed.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> I nominate this for post of the year, that is hilarious. well done sir, well done indeed.


 I second that nomination.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'll give y'all that. Ebike forum? Goes to show how things are. Shame shame. But hey, that's how are moderators are. Why not just bag this entire forum? All us ebikers probably were and still are mtbrs.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Maybe there's a forum for that? How about a forum for "non land owners" that decide how land "should" be managed, although they have no skin in the game?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Why not just bag this entire forum?


Best idea ever.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The degree of vitriol and rancor displayed by the opponents of e-bikes should be reserved for more heinous activities; prejudice comes to mind.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:
> 
> 1) Bikepacking with a big load.
> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
> ...


I 'spose I never answered the OP's question directly; to add #4 to the list it would have to be "get somewhere (uphill) quicker (and less tired)".

My #1 is sort of a variation of fos'l's; "Trail maintenance/building with a big load of tools/supplies". That's the main reason I e-bike (e-moto) on single track,

Most of the e-bikers I run into out on trails seem to be out for #2; and of average fitness or better than average fitness (ref. Strava for their performance on "regular" MTBs).

I don't think I've ever seen an e-biker with an obvious handicap (unless being old is a handicap). Somebody should publish the demographic of e-bike purchasers; most seem to be in the 20 to 50 yr. old range.

I'd also like to highlight the differences between "LEGAL" and "ACCEPTABLE".


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Moe Ped said:


> I 'spose I never answered the OP's question directly; to add #4 to the list it would have to be "get somewhere (uphill) quicker (and less tired)".
> 
> My #1 is sort of a variation of fos'l's; "Trail maintenance/building with a big load of tools/supplies".  That's the main reason I e-bike (e-moto) on single track,
> 
> ...


 It's legal or not. Some kind of gray area? Not. Alternative facts....


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

leeboh said:


> It's legal or not. Some kind of gray area? Not. Alternative facts....


Some things can be "legal" and not "acceptable"; for example up until 1895 the age of consent in Delaware was 7 years. Not a good law by almost every judgement. E-bike laws are kind of like that.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Moe Ped said:


> I 'spose I never answered the OP's question directly; to add #4 to the list it would have to be "get somewhere (uphill) quicker (and less tired)".
> 
> My #1 is sort of a variation of fos'l's; "Trail maintenance/building with a big load of tools/supplies". That's the main reason I e-bike (e-moto) on single track,
> 
> ...


👍 Good Post, my exact findings as well.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

vikb said:


> I don't want an e-bike as I can ride anything I want under human power and enjoy the exercise, but I got one of these ^^^ e-hikers. My friends like to hike, but I don't and maybe because of too much biking my hiking muscles aren't great so I am always at the back.
> 
> With an e-hiker I get a lot of the benefits of hiking [hanging out with friends, fresh air, some exercise, etc...] without actually having to work on my hiking fitness. I can stay at the front of my friends' hiking group and sometimes I do 2 or 3 hikes in a day when normally I'd just do a single ride.
> 
> ...


hmm that looks like fun - ohh thats right there is no having fun if everyone on this forum doesn't agree


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

You know, Peter Sagan would actually be slower on my Speshy Turbo S than he would on his Venge. Kinda crazy when you think about it..


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Gutch said:


> You know, Peter Sagan would actually be slower on my Speshy Turbo S than he would on his Venge. Kinda crazy when you think about it..


Not up a 10%, 5mi climb...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Saw an e bike on the trails yesterday. Of course I'm out riding illegal single track so what can I say.
Still feels bad as the motor bikes get lumped in with us.
He had a full list of excuses. All of them applied to me as we where a similar age, did similar jobs and I have more kids. Basically he was just lazy and didn't want to put any effort into riding.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^really, go troll elsewhere or ride an ebike.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Not up a 10%, 5mi climb...
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Correct, that would be Froome. Sagan could out sprint one on his off days anyday.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Moe Ped said:


> Some things can be "legal" and not "acceptable"; for example up until 1895 the age of consent in Delaware was 7 years. Not a good law by almost every judgement. E-bike laws are kind of like that.


 Don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining. Here In MA, no motor vehicles allowed on multi use off road trails. Except for a few( like 6) designated places. Very clear, not kinda sort of or gray area. At all. Just ride where they are allowed, NH has loads of space, less people and places set up for ORV.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Not up a 10%, 5mi climb...
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Would be seriously amusing if he could do close to 20 mph average up such a climb. :lol:

Maybe try to steal this KOM (part of the tour of california): https://www.strava.com/segments/658277


----------



## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

fos'l said:


> Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:
> 
> 1) Bikepacking with a big load.
> 2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
> ...


Read the climb portion of this emtb vs mtb test. It should answer your question...

WAY MORE FUN with more climbs & descents in the same amount of time! 

Catfish ...


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

A Honda 250 would be fun too. Bbrrrraaapppppp


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

fos'l said:


> The degree of vitriol and rancor displayed by the *proponents* of e-bikes should be reserved for more heinous activities; prejudice comes to mind.


fify


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

deleted


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

motocatfish said:


> Read the climb portion of this emtb vs mtb test. It should answer your question...
> 
> WAY MORE FUN with more climbs & descents in the same amount of time!
> 
> Catfish ...


 You are only supposed to have fun going downhill, it's a rule violation to enjoy climbs.........


----------



## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

I want to make a phone app that plugs-in with strava and the ebike.

You can pick any KOM you want to beat/follow and the app controls how much "assist" the motor gives you.

You would finally feel what it's like to be fast, if you don't have the fitness for it.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Do it. That's the beauty and privilege of living in the USA, you can purchase whatever you want, if you choose to of coarse.. Once you know you're fast and want to be faster, buy one.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Sounds irresponsible to do whatever, just because you can and have the freedom to. That's one of the push-backs against e-bikes, since it's mostly the stupidity and ignorance that freedom allows that people hate, at least when the stupidity affects them. Where ever there's stupidity, people don't point at stupid people, they point at what allows them to do such stupid things...

E-bikes have big fire hazards, their battery packs, which are far bigger than what you'd find in a night rider's pack. Imagine starting a huge forest fire from a faulty Li-Ion battery pack, that's shooting out shards of lithium--there's enough evidence out there (https://www.google.com/search?q=ebike+explodes & https://www.google.com/search?q=ebike+catches+fire). The trail erosion thing is a pretty minor argument. One big reason why dirtbikes and other "motor vehicles" are banned from land that is protected/conserved, is because the risk of fuel, oil, and other hazardous fluids contaminating the local water source, including seeping into the ground water (not to mention the other pollutants). Electric motors don't really have these pollutants, closer to mechanized transportation than typical motor vehicles, but it's the battery that is a concern.

I'd really not like to see ebikes crippled before they even get off the ground. Thinking ahead (perhaps far ahead), I might very well get one. I see great potential for them to accelerate technology and I don't really like the toxic attitude shown here that slows such progress. It's not only the anti-ebike folks, but also the pro-ebike folks that are toxic. Can't people practice a bit of virtue?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^ Dude, you're getting a little deep. It's a bike with an electric motor- that's it! The investment has been made, they are going nowhere. Are they the best things since sliced bread? Hell no, they are just fun! Ride them responsibly and everybody will be just fine.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

The last time the "investment" in bicycles with electric motors was made, they turned into e-motorcycles for the road with range problems, or niche little things like the Hanebrink. I think it was mainly since dinky weight weenie MTB parts weren't stout enough for them.


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

Actually after riding a.Levo for 7 months the potential of this bike is tremendous even for the fittest racer type.
Everyone slamming them is missing it's many uses.
A racer type can use it for training to make them much stronger, you can use the app to dial up or down as much power as you want, a heavy bike dialed down to make you work harder than a normal bike gives a huge training advantage . Even do a ride where you set it moderate , then back and forth between hard effort and moderate, kinda like sprints.

The potential is limitless , surprised pros aren't using them to train and then race on their puny uber light race bikes.

Some days I.ride.medium setting.then other dial down to low low setting climbing on a.49 pound bike makes you strong as hell.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

snowsurfer11 said:


> A racer type can use it for training to make them much stronger, you can use the app to dial up or down as much power as you want, a heavy bike dialed down to make you work harder than a normal bike gives a huge training advantage .


I could fill my frame tubes with 25 pounds of sand for free but I'd rather burn the same amount of watts and go a lot faster instead.


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I could fill my frame tubes with 25 pounds of sand for free but I'd rather burn the same amount of watts and go a lot faster instead.


That is great sweetpea. Filling your frame with 25lbs of sand, not possible, and very dumb. Using the latest technology to quickly adjust a brutal workout, possible. Get out of the darkages.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You can do a "brutal" workout without a motor just fine. What on earth are you talking about? I hate to tell you this, but you don't need an "app" or a motor to adjust your effort level on a bike. You can, instead, just pedal harder (or not as hard). 

Seriously, maybe I'm missing something here, but the whole post makes no sense. If you're a fit racer, you can indeed get a great workout (at higher speed) on an e-bike, but it's not going to be any better than doing the same effort on a normal bike - just faster. The end result will be the same - the e-bike isn't a superior training bike and I have no idea why you'd think this. 

There is some precedent for doing exercises with reduced weight/assistance in some sports (ie rock climbing, sprinting) to train muscle memory for specific movements or learn how to, for example, run at a very high cadence, but bikes have no such skill requirements, at least not any that would be helped by a motorized assist that I can think of.

-Walt


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

snowsurfer11 said:


> Filling your frame with 25lbs of sand, not possible, and very dumb.


Sure about that? I got some pretty fat tubes. Anyway I could always stuff a few rocks in my camelbak if I needed any more "training". For sure it would be dumb but not as silly as blowing 7 grand and then turning the motor off to go slower.


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

Walt said:


> You can do a "brutal" workout without a motor just fine. What on earth are you talking about? I hate to tell you this, but you don't need an "app" or a motor to adjust your effort level on a bike. You can, instead, just pedal harder (or not as hard).
> 
> Seriously, maybe I'm missing something here, but the whole post makes no sense. If you're a fit racer, you can indeed get a great workout (at higher speed) on an e-bike, but it's not going to be any better than doing the same effort on a normal bike - just faster. The end result will be the same - the e-bike isn't a superior training bike and I have no idea why you'd think this.
> 
> ...


It's Walt the ebike thread troll, I knew you would pine in. If you had any real experience on an ebike your opinion might matter, but since you don't , why don't you stick to other threads instead of constantly trolling ebike threads. Do you have a life outside these forums? Pretty sad dude......


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You could also just put rubber bands on your brake levers, or wear a paper bag over your head, or pay people to pelt you with snowballs and insult you while riding on the stationary trainer, if you need to make your bike riding harder for "training" purposes. 

I don't think an expensive electric motor and battery system that's turned off is the most cost effective way to train. That money would buy a lot of snowballs and rude/crude homeless guys to hang out in the basement with you.

-Walt


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

This may be the dumbest thread ever.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

snowsurfer11 said:


> It's Walt the ebike thread troll, I knew you would pine in. If you had any real experience on an ebike your opinion might matter, but since you don't , why don't you stick to other threads instead of constantly trolling ebike threads. Do you have a life outside these forums? Pretty sad dude......


Yes, I am a pathetic individual. It's very sad.

Now, would you care to explain how e-bikes are better for training than normal bikes? I'm honestly curious about the logic behind that claim.

-Walt


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Travis Bickle said:


> This may be the dumbest thread ever.


It's up there but I'm still going with "How are midgets getting on in our sport?"

@snowflake- what about dragging an anchor?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't know if it helped my "training", but I've certainly dropped the anchor in a few races in my time. Never thought of pulling one, though.

-Walt


----------



## Angelcaro (Jul 17, 2016)

This weekend i encountered two people on e-bikes at DuPont and we went on the trail at the same time and they tried to pull away from me when i laid the hammer down and left them behind on my SS mtb on a climb, you should've seen the look on their faces when they saw what i was riding.


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

Walt said:


> Yes, I am a pathetic individual. It's very sad.
> 
> Now, would you care to explain how e-bikes are better for training than normal bikes? I'm honestly curious about the logic behind that claim.
> 
> -Walt


Pretty sure I explained that a few posts ago skippy. 
Wow just checked your frames out....do people actually buy that trash? Looks like high school shop class work, scary stuff...lol, I bet they break a lot.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Well, they don't have mounts for a motor so that you could clean up in XC racing, so of course you wouldn't want one. 

Anyway, there is still a legitimate question you didn't answer: Why would XC racers want to spend a large sum of money on an e-bike, when they already train at different intensities on standard bicycles by lowering the power input and reducing their speed?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

FOR ME, the best part of MTB is ascents even though I'm not as strong as I was. I would never put up with wrestling 20 extra pounds around just to make climbing easier. My point was that years ago I would never have considered an e-bike and now (and I don't care what anyone thinks) occasionally I ride one for a different experience and it's fun FOR ME. It was interesting to see what reasons others have for riding them.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

snowsurfer11 said:


> Pretty sure I explained that a few posts ago skippy.
> Wow just checked your frames out....do people actually buy that trash? Looks like high school shop class work, scary stuff...lol, I bet they break a lot.


Please indulge me and explain using small words how you'd go about training on your e-bike, and how that training would be superior to riding the same intensity/duration/interval on a normal bike. You've claimed that's the case, but I'm still not clear on the details of how and why. I understand that you can vary the assist levels (in fact I have a little time on a LEVO myself) but it's not obvious to me how that helps anyone train.

Are you just saying that you can turn off the assist and make yourself carry some extra weight? As others have pointed out that can be done much more cheaply with all sorts of objects/materials that don't require lithium ion batteries or computers.

-Walt


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

snowsurfer11 said:


> Actually after riding a.Levo for 7 months the potential of this bike is tremendous even for the fittest racer type.
> Everyone slamming them is missing it's many uses.
> A racer type can use it for training to make them much stronger, you can use the app to dial up or down as much power as you want, a heavy bike dialed down to make you work harder than a normal bike gives a huge training advantage . Even do a ride where you set it moderate , then back and forth between hard effort and moderate, kinda like sprints.
> 
> ...


You know that you generate the same wattage regardless of how much the bike weighs, right?

Your body doesn't magically produce more power by adding weight to your bike.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Trail access is the only viable argument. Any others are pointless.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I can think of a couple of reasons in answer to the op eds question. One is that I ride a lot of loops that include some boring asphalt. With the ebike you can make quick work of the asphalt without wasting precious energy and get back on the trail where the fun is. Second, forget the shuttles. They waste gas and time. What a huge waste of time to have to drive back up and get the shuttle vehicle after a nice ride. Those days are gone for me. Paying for a shuttle? No thanks. My bike will maintain 17 mph on the road so a shuttle is not really needed. Third, multiple laps on a local downhill trail. No chair lifts. Fourth, the XC rider can train in steeper areas where most other riders don't go. Let's face it, the local favorite trails are packed. The ebike lets the fit rider escape those trails in favor of less traveled, albeit harder areas. Think of a trail that is kinda washed out with loose rocks. Really no fun with skinny XC tires. A heavy ebike like the Levo with the mid fat tires scoots right up a trail the XC rider would frown at. Fifth, the Levo opens up more moto trails to the XC rider. I know trails that are open to motos and horses that have sections that are to steep to ride bicycle on. Now those areas are open to me now.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, I used to live somewhere that had a ton of gnarly moto/jeep trails - they sucked (this was 20 years ago) on a mountain bike, even as a fit pro. An e-bike would have been amazing for those. There are lots of (legal for motos) Moab rides I won't do because of long road/sand stretches that would be fun on an e-bike. 

Eliminating shuttles is another great reason. Shuttles are horrible wastes of everyone's time. 

Bike parks (so long as there's access via maintenance road or something) are another great place for e-bikes. Directional, bike-only trails are in no danger for access reasons. I'm not so sure the resorts operating the lift and maintaining the trails would be very happy if lots of people started doing that, but that's another question.

-Walt


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I wouldn't argue that they are "better" or more fun than traditional, just different time and something to mix it up.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

snowsurfer11 said:


> Pretty sure I explained that a few posts ago skippy.
> Wow just checked your frames out....do people actually buy that trash? Looks like high school shop class work, scary stuff...lol, I bet they break a lot.


snowsurfer11.... Obvious troll is bad troll....

Everyone, stop feeding this troll.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

*.*

...


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Look dude, I like Ebikes and have been a mtbr for awhile now and enjoy riding EVERY type of bicycle. PLEASE do not ride illegally anywhere, not cool. It's not a fine you'll get, you'll be "that guy " that bagged it for everyone. 
I understand your time crunch and squeezing in more action with the ebike, for sure. Being a beginner, I just want to see you get off on the right wheel. Santa Cruz make nice bikes for sure.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ah, 80# 3kW rider openly posting about riding illegal trails.

E-bikes are so screwed, and the industry has only itself to blame. 

-Walt


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

I'm unclear why people hate on ebikes. I ride within the trails just like you. The extra weight, perhaps(+25ish lbs) cant be that significant to trail erosion. Human weight variance already is greater than that. Is it because I can ride the same trails more often than if I was unpowered?

I get why motorcycles are not allowed. They are too loud, generally go too fast, and really tear up the terrain. Most ebikes go normal biking speeds. 20ish mph. This is slower than regular DH bikers.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I'm unclear why people hate on ebikes. .


Have you ever gone to a city council meeting or land management meeting to fight for trail access? Ever done a trail work day at your local trails? If you had, you might have a better idea "why people hate on e-bikes".

Also, don't ever post about riding illegally again, that is expressly forbidden anywhere on MTBR, e-bike or pedal bike, no discussions of poaching illegal trails is allowed.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

I've gone to a few city council meetings. Not bike related though. And I'm open to help with trail maintenance, but noone has ever asked me. Why not, if I use the trail I should help maintain it. 

I'm genuinely curious....What do you guys do for trail maintenance? I can't imagine you're grooming the ruts out of the runs, or do you? Do you guys fix the jumps and clear fallen trees? 

I've never seen any trails close of open for MTB. But I read that it was a thing since many hikers don't like mountain bikes. I'm.in the SF Bay area and all the trails here are already established as far as I know. 

Sorry if these are stupid questions. I genuinely don't know.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Im sure I just need to dial in the suspension also but we're both pretty much beginners.


A first post filled with bike speak, spendy bikes and openly illegal riding for a guy just getting into the sport? Sure, not fishy at all.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Harryman said:


> A first post filled with bike speak, spendy bikes and openly illegal riding for a guy just getting into the sport? Sure, not fishy at all.


I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that I'm some kind of Ebike spy?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

At this point I suspect an *anti* e-bike sock puppet account, since I'm not sure there's a way to make e-bikes look any worse than you already have. 

-Walt


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Whatever dude. I'm just a guy trying to go on a nice bike ride. Curteous to hikers and don't ride like a dick. Some of you guys are hella rude.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

If you rode my local trails and I caught you, I'd make a call to the BLM law enforcement, we'd press charges, ticket you for trespassing and vandalism and then impound your moped. All that and I'd smile doing it. Please stop what you're doing and stick to legal areas.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

What area do you live in that the cops will respond fast enough to to catch me before I ride off into the sunset? Most areas in the US wont even respond to vehicular robberies, you have to fill out a report online. And no warning at all? Just impound my super fun Moped just like that, and charge me for trespassing when there's isn't a "no trespassing" sign posted? But i could be wrong, maybe you live in north Korea or Nazi Germany.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Whatever, this has got to be fake. Or at least I hope it is.

And yes, in the Bay area, you can and will be caught by the police for poaching trails. It's probably the most heavily policed trail system in the US. 

Presuming you actually live there, of course. 

-Walt


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Of course I don't live there. I only created this account so I could spread the word of God. Have you heard the word lately brother?


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Walt said:


> Yes, I am a pathetic individual. It's very sad.
> 
> Now, would you care to explain how e-bikes are better for training than normal bikes? I'm honestly curious about the logic behind that claim.
> 
> -Walt


An e-bike can provide augmentation that allows a rider to train within an optimal zone as conditions vary. Terrain, weather, and the actual condition of the athlete vary from day to day. One of the biggest problems that an elite athlete can face is over-training. This is why we spend so much time in the gym with our athletes. It is a controlled environment. The proper amount of weight to properly train a given athlete, for example, varies from one athlete to the next. I can cite countless examples of athletes achieving comparable race results that have very different training regimens in the gym. Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders. Now the terrain can be "tuned" to keep an athlete in "the zone" by adding or removing assist. The bikes we use have much greater granular control than typical consumer bikes, but they all require greater effort when zero assist is applied. You haven't lived until you have seen the look on the face of a rider who just had his assist shut off remotely because his heart wasn't working hard enough. LOL.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Those of us who live in the Sandycruz Mountains may need them for the roads (what's left of them) if we get much more rain.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

Wasn't the reason I bought a Levo, but quickly found it funny has hell, now I sit at the trailhead and wait for 'Johnny I think I'am an Uber Biker' to go ahead of me, wait a good bit, then watch him panic and burn himself up after seeing me catching him, then the priceless, dejected look as I pass and drop him, lol! 
Worth the price of admission right there.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

FWIW I occasionally see pro roadies training behind a motor scooter to simulate the draft of riding in a peloton. (Or a breakaway or echelon or whatever) I suppose an e-bike could be programmed to offer a boost similar to the energy saved by drafting. Much more cost effective than having to hire a scooter/driver or hiring other pros to form a "real" peloton.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

This is very well written. Hopefully it's gets through all the ebike haters. They seem to think we just jump on an ebike and just throttle it like you're riding a motorcycle. I would argue that the vast majority of Ebike owners do not do this. I still pedal along as I use throttle power. And with the extra power I'm able to get through the hard parts of a trail so I can spend more time on the fun parts of the run. Without the extra power a quick 45 min workout on my bike means I pedal to my local city park, do a lap around the grass and ride home. With my ebike I'm able to ride to the top of a local legal trailhead and do like 2 super fun singletrack track runs in the same time. This makes me actually want to ride my bike when I have this opportunity.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Moe Ped said:


> FWIW I occasionally see pro roadies training behind a motor scooter to simulate the draft of riding in a peloton. (Or a breakaway or echelon or whatever) I suppose an e-bike could be programmed to offer a boost similar to the energy saved by drafting. Much more cost effective than having to hire a scooter/driver or hiring other pros to form a "real" peloton.


That is one way they are used today. I can tell you exactly how many watts you need to dial in to overcome air-resistance at a given speed, and sophisticated controllers allow continuous variability. But isn't this a Mountain Bike Forum? I am here to have fun, not talk shop.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> That is one way they are used today. I can tell you exactly how many watts you need to dial in to overcome air-resistance at a given speed, and sophisticated controllers allow continuous variability. But isn't this a Mountain Bike Forum? I am here to have fun, not talk shop.


Actually an e-bike forum that MTBR uses to bait click-thru's to real bike stuff. It's all good


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Some interesting stuff. You guys are gonna get dumped on any minute.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Moe Ped said:


> FWIW I occasionally see pro roadies training behind a motor scooter to simulate the draft of riding in a peloton. (Or a breakaway or echelon or whatever) I suppose an e-bike could be programmed to offer a boost similar to the energy saved by drafting. Much more cost effective than having to hire a scooter/driver or hiring other pros to form a "real" peloton.


Yeah, an e-bike isn't going to do what those people are trying to do.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> An e-bike can provide augmentation that allows a rider to train within an optimal zone as conditions vary. Terrain, weather, and the actual condition of the athlete vary from day to day. One of the biggest problems that an elite athlete can face is over-training. This is why we spend so much time in the gym with our athletes. It is a controlled environment. The proper amount of weight to properly train a given athlete, for example, varies from one athlete to the next. I can cite countless examples of athletes achieving comparable race results that have very different training regimens in the gym. Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders. Now the terrain can be "tuned" to keep an athlete in "the zone" by adding or removing assist. The bikes we use have much greater granular control than typical consumer bikes, but they all require greater effort when zero assist is applied. You haven't lived until you have seen the look on the face of a rider who just had his assist shut off remotely because his heart wasn't working hard enough. LOL.


Or, they just look at the power meter on their bike and hold it at the specified threshold.

You know, what people actually do.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If your athletes aren't feeling good, they can ride easier, or they can take a rest day. You don't gain anything by putting them on a bike with an assist. What a bizarre comment.

Motorpacing is a totally different thing that is intended to allow riders to practice riding *in a draft* (ie, holding a careful line/position relative to another bike/moto) while doing various acccelerations/efforts/etc. It is not at all the same as riding fast with an assist.

-W


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders.


This is one of the funniest things I've ever read. You don't know anything about cycling at all, do you?

-Walt


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Walt said:


> This is one of the funniest things I've ever read. You don't know anything about cycling at all, do you?
> 
> -Walt


Apparently Chris Froome shouldn't be staring at his power meter readings on his computer screen, but riding an e-bike.

I'm guessing ol' Bjorn doesn't actually know anyone with a UCI license.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## MagicShite (Oct 20, 2015)

because I have money and I like new toys. 

Also recovery days can be REALLY recovery days even if I'm going out with my friends for a ride up the hills.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Some interesting stuff. You guys are gonna get dumped on any minute.


Good prediction.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Okay for all you nattering nabobs of negativism; how'bout considering an e-bike a stationary training bicycle that you can take to the road (or mountains)? Precision controlled workout regardless of existing conditions.

Disclaimer: I don't approve of stationary training bikes; never used one myself but apparently they have their place in the run of things.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> Okay for all you nattering nabobs of negativism; how'bout considering an e-bike a stationary training bicycle that you can take to the road (or mountains)? Precision controlled workout regardless of existing conditions.
> 
> Disclaimer: I don't approve of stationary training bikes; never used one myself but apparently they have their place in the run of things.


Stationary bikes are not powered by electric motors.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Stationary bikes are not powered by electric motors.


Yes but the air conditioning system of the gym used to keep all those sweaty bodies comfortable uses electric motors. Gym on the top floor? Did you walk the stairs or take an elevator?

Where were you going with this?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Some interesting stuff. You guys are gonna get dumped on any minute.


Its been dumping here, I was skiing in 3ft of new snow yesterday. 😀


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders.


I had to double check to make sure this wasn't April 1.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Please feel free to make all the phone calls you want. I use my real name here and it's easy to call me up or send me an email or come say hello if you really want to talk about using e-bikes to optimize training. But what you've stated doesn't really make sense, so I'll go ahead and call you out on it. 

Look, e-bikes have legitimate uses, and putting aside the debate about trail access, there are LOTS of reasons you might want one (make rest days fun, keep up with faster buddies, pull tools/kids/groceries around, just fun to go faster/not work so hard, not show up to work sweaty, etc, etc, etc). But the "Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders." and (paraphrasing) "it's better training because you can turn off the motor and then it's heavy and slow" stuff is ridiculous. It makes you look silly and/or like you don't know what you're talking about, so stop. 

-Walt


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> Its been dumping here, I was skiing in 3ft of new snow yesterday. 😀


That's insane! I lived in snow belts my whole life then moved further south and vowed I would never shovel snow again. I bet powder skiing with nice temps are fun as hell.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Travis Bickle said:


> This may be the dumbest thread ever.


Yesterday I bought a six pack, drank it, then went out and bought an eMTB. Went for a rip roaring ride and life was grand.

This morning I woke up and felt like crap. I should never have drank that six pack!

No worries though, I will just work it off with another 20 mile ride through the hills while eating breakfast.

I like getting free lunches!!!

So does Wimpy, who will gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today&#8230; :lol:


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Wimpy doesn't pay until Tuesday.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Walt said:


> Please feel free to make all the phone calls you want. I use my real name here and it's easy to call me up or send me an email or come say hello if you really want to talk about using e-bikes to optimize training. But what you've stated doesn't really make sense, so I'll go ahead and call you out on it.
> 
> Look, e-bikes have legitimate uses, and putting aside the debate about trail access, there are LOTS of reasons you might want one (make rest days fun, keep up with faster buddies, pull tools/kids/groceries around, just fun to go faster/not work so hard, not show up to work sweaty, etc, etc, etc). But the "Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders." and (paraphrasing) "it's better training because you can turn off the motor and then it's heavy and slow" stuff is ridiculous. It makes you look silly and/or like you don't know what you're talking about, so stop.
> 
> -Walt


On my old cargo bike with hub motor it was harder to pedal if you turn the motor off. Not because of bike weight but because the hub motor puts out resistance if not powered. So that is a somewhat true statement.

Also for training, what if a rider has a hard time on a particular run? With and ebike you could do that run over and over again and focus on just the hard part. Or....If the rider was a friend of mine is town them up the hill on my ebike and they don't even need one. I love my carbon SC Nomad but it takes more time to ride it enjoyably.

So using an ebike seems like a feasible way to train.

If you were riding with me and I offered to tow you up the quarter mile 25 degree shitty party of the trail would you say no?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, in the absence of a lift of some kind, it would be a way for DH racers to work on skills. Good point.

I don't think that's really what we were discussing, but it's a worthwhile point.

-Walt


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Just as a rule of thumb for proponents of e-bikes or those who don't oppose them unequivocally, even though the opponents seem to be in a ratio of 10:1 (or so; didn't attempt to calculate), the opponents can be as rude or abusive as they wish with impunity, while the only individuals who are ever banned or rebuked have been proponents AFAICT. This is a consequence of the most evident moderators being anti. I've complained about this to no avail.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Just as a rule of thumb for proponents of e-bikes or those who don't oppose them unequivocally, even though the opponents seem to be in a ratio of 10:1 (or so; didn't attempt to calculate), the opponents can be as rude or abusive as they wish with impunity, while the only individuals who are ever banned or rebuked have been proponents AFAICT. This is a consequence of the most evident moderators being anti. I've complained about this to no avail.


Most of the ones that got banned started name calling or were just simply bat **** crazy though so the average is skewed.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Just as a rule of thumb for proponents of e-bikes or those who don't oppose them unequivocally, even though the opponents seem to be in a ratio of 10:1 (or so; didn't attempt to calculate), the opponents can be as rude or abusive as they wish with impunity, while the only individuals who are ever banned or rebuked have been proponents AFAICT. This is a consequence of the most evident moderators being anti. I've complained about this to no avail.


Tell me, what terms and conditions of MTBR have I violated?

Then, look at what people like Bjorn post. Then, compare and contrast those two.

I didn't verbally abuse anyone, or swear at anyone. Neither has Walt, who is NOT the moderator of this forum.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Ebikes are here and we're only going to see more of them in the future. But this is a good thing you guys. If participation increase 10x you will see more poeple on trails. But, there will be 10x as many bike consumers, meaning cheaper and better technology for everyone. As far as trail access, yes that is a concern, but then you'll have 10x more people advocating for access than before. And with trail maintenance, Ebikes can help substantially with this effort. 

I'm in the SF Bay area and if someone tried to shut down a park completely for MTB access bikers would come out in force to opposes it. I know I would. There may be less advocates today, but with more users you will have more advocates. Simple enonomics. 

We don't know for sure what will happen in the future but I choose to look at the positive side of things.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Phantastic79 said:


> Ebikes are here and we're only going to see more of them in the future. But this is a good thing you guys. If participation increase 10x you will see more poeple on trails. But, there will be 10x as many bike consumers, meaning cheaper and better technology for everyone. As far as trail access, yes that is a concern, but then you'll have 10x more people advocating for access than before. And with trail maintenance, Ebikes can help substantially with this effort.
> 
> I'm in the SF Bay area and if someone tried to shut down a park completely for MTB access bikers would come out in force to opposes it. I know I would. There may be less advocates today, but with more users you will have more advocates. Simple enonomics.
> 
> We don't know for sure what will happen in the future but I choose to look at the positive side of things.


You assume that the majority of Mountain Bikers want more of these on local trails and you could not be more mistaken. And to assume that emotorbikers are advocates is laughable unless poaching counts as advocacy.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Phantastic79 said:


> If participation increase 10x you will see more poeple on trails. But, there will be 10x as many bike consumers, meaning cheaper and better technology for everyone. As far as trail access, yes that is a concern, but then you'll have 10x more people advocating for access than before.


Seldom if ever are these kinds of socioeconomic relationships even remotely that linear.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

tiretracks said:


> You assume that the majority of Mountain Bikers want more of these on local trails and you could not be more mistaken. And to assume that emotorbikers are advocates is laughable unless poaching counts as advocacy.


Quite the contrary. I think most MTBRs are against ebikes. And judging from the responses I see all over the place I think this is true. But I get it, you want the mountain to yourself. You want you and your buddies to be the only ones on that trail, worrying less that there may be another biker in your line. You want everyone to have to earn their spot at the top of the hill to witness that badass view of the valley so few people get to see. But too bad. Ebikes sales are not declining and you will see more of them at your trail in the future. So you can go to war and fight a losing battle or just adapt to the changing times.

I would argue that a less able bodied older ebike user would be more motivated to attend a city council meeting on land use than your average weekend warrior mountain biker. But who knows, I could be wrong on this. I've never heard of any hearings/meetings in my area and have not attended one. Have you?


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

MattMay said:


> Seldom if ever are these kinds of socioeconomic relationships even remotely that linear.


You may be right. I honestly don't know but I would guess that it's feasible. More users = more interest = more stakeholders. I love my ebike, it fantastic. But I also love my regular bike. Maybe most ebike users ride their bikes once and never get back in the saddle because they're hella lazy. But I wouldn't think than to be true. I would assume they would ride more because it's so much fun.

And that's my experience. I rode bikes all the time when I was car-less. But after college and working and life biking never seemed that interesting to get back into. My workouts just meant going to the gym. But after buying an ebike decades later I want to ride all the time. I just wish it would stop ****ing raining and I would.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Phantastic79 said:


> Quite the contrary. I think most MTBRs are against ebikes. And judging from the responses I see all over the place I think this is true. But I get it, you want the mountain to yourself. You want you and your buddies to be the only ones on that trail, worrying less that there may be another biker in your line. You want everyone to have to earn their spot at the top of the hill to witness that badass view of the valley so few people get to see. But too bad. Ebikes sales are not declining and you will see more of them at your trail in the future. So you can go to war and fight a losing battle or just adapt to the changing times.
> 
> I would argue that a less able bodied older ebike user would be more motivated to attend a city council meeting on land use than your average weekend warrior mountain biker. But who knows, I could be wrong on this. I've never heard of any hearings/meetings in my area and have not attended one. Have you?


I simply want the trails to exclude motor power. That's it, no other agenda and I don't care how many bicycles are on the trail on any given day, just don't want motorcycles. If someone has a legitimate disability and has an ADA placard they should get a pass. But I think that the disabled will quickly find out for themselves that the wild places that opens up to them are probably pretty hostile places if they find themselves without motor assist to get them back to a trail head. Chew on that for a while.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Phantastic79 said:


> But I get it, you want the mountain to yourself. You want you and your buddies to be the only ones on that trail, worrying less that there may be another biker in your line. You want everyone to have to earn their spot at the top of the hill to witness that badass view of the valley so few people get to see. But too bad. Ebikes sales are not declining and you will see more of them at your trail in the future. So you can go to war and fight a losing battle or just adapt to the changing times.


You don't get it; what you wrote shows that clearly. It seems very few ebike proponents do, despite how many times it is clearly stated. Imagining that MTBrs are butthurt purists upset that ebikes are faster is a lot more comfortable than recognizing that ebikes exacerbate the issues related to MTBs and hikers sharing multiuse trails.



Phantastic79 said:


> I would argue that a less able bodied older ebike user would be more motivated to attend a city council meeting on land use than your average weekend warrior mountain biker. But who knows, I could be wrong on this. I've never heard of any hearings/meetings in my area and have not attended one. Have you?


Yes, frequently. I help run a nonprofit and sit on two local boards. Most of the other long-time posters have similar commitments. But your response to trail work was "nobody has ever asked me" so I wouldn't expect you to have any understanding of the advocacy work going on in your area. You have to be motivated to get involved.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't *want* 10 times more mountain bikers. Good lord, why would you want that? If you live in the Bay area I assume you are well aware of how crowded trails get...

-Walt


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

fos'l said:


> ...the opponents can be as rude or abusive as they wish with impunity, while the only individuals who are ever banned or rebuked have been proponents.. This is a consequence of the most evident moderators being anti.


Please post your evidence for this accusation?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> An e-bike can provide augmentation that allows a rider to train within an optimal zone as conditions vary. Terrain, weather, and the actual condition of the athlete vary from day to day. One of the biggest problems that an elite athlete can face is over-training. This is why we spend so much time in the gym with our athletes. It is a controlled environment. The proper amount of weight to properly train a given athlete, for example, varies from one athlete to the next. I can cite countless examples of athletes achieving comparable race results that have very different training regimens in the gym. Until the e-bike became available, training rides could not be optimized for individual riders. Now the terrain can be "tuned" to keep an athlete in "the zone" by adding or removing assist. The bikes we use have much greater granular control than typical consumer bikes, but they all require greater effort when zero assist is applied. You haven't lived until you have seen the look on the face of a rider who just had his assist shut off remotely because his heart wasn't working hard enough. LOL.


 How much motor assist do they get in the race, those downtube ones no one knows about ?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Ebikes are here and we're only going to see more of them in the future. But this is a good thing you guys. If participation increase 10x you will see more poeple on trails. But, there will be 10x as many bike consumers, meaning cheaper and better technology for everyone. As far as trail access, yes that is a concern, but then you'll have 10x more people advocating for access than before. And with trail maintenance, Ebikes can help substantially with this effort.
> 
> I'm in the SF Bay area and if someone tried to shut down a park completely for MTB access bikers would come out in force to opposes it. I know I would. There may be less advocates today, but with more users you will have more advocates. Simple enonomics.
> 
> We don't know for sure what will happen in the future but I choose to look at the positive side of things.


 Bikes don't have motors. 10x the riders? Ummm, not. Talk to the Sierra Club, AMC ( east coast version) and all those horsie owners. Ask what they think about motorized e motorcycles. Access is THE issue. And continued access.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> Quite the contrary. I think most MTBRs are against ebikes.


I really don't think so - I know I'm not. What I am against is having them classified the same as a regular bicycle, for reasons I've expressed ad nauseum. That doesn't mean they absolutely wouldn't be allowed on MTB trails, it just means that LMs would make that decision. I don't necessarily have an objection to them being classified differently than full-on motos, but certainly not the same as a pedal-powered bike.

We disagree on that point, and that's all it really boils down to.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Direct insults to other users and quoting those insults will get ones posts deleted. This has nothing to do with the idea that one person supports e-bikes in on fashion or another and one does not.

There is so much gray area for this forum, please re-read the rules and make sure your comments reflect exactly what you are speaking about, Road use, allowed trail use, disallowed trail use, location of trails, etc.

There is no one correct answer for every single trail in the United States.. this is a big country with 50 different States making variations of rules and within those states many different counties, cities and other land management agencies that play into what is and is not legal.

Keep it civil and your posts will not get deleted.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

To be fair, I didn't say that every non-proponent was rude; for example, SHM & JBW are exemplary IMO, and I didn't say that every proponent was innocuous (including myself). 
I stand by the rest and I'm not going to delineate every instance just to prove a point(s) that is obvious intuitively to even a casual observer. If you don't like it, tough. If you want a couple of examples, how about someone who insults a physically challenged individual or somebody who makes a stupid comment about a thread (possibly the gold standard for the dumbest comment ever made in any thread on any subject anywhere) where an individual was just trying to learn something?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fos'l said:


> makes a stupid comment about a thread (possibly the gold standard for the dumbest comment ever made in any thread on any subject anywhere) where an individual was just trying to learn something?


To be fair nothing about his comment was directed at the OP, to me it seemed like a general comment about the direction the thread took and was not making a personal attack.

I do not recall seeing someone specifically make fun of a disabled person.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, when did anyone make fun of a disabled person? I certainly never have, and in fact I've been outspoken in my belief that people with disabilities should be allowed to use e-bikes. 

Give us some links? 

-Walt


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> To be fair, I didn't say that every non-proponent was rude; for example, SHM & JBW are exemplary IMO, and I didn't say that every proponent was innocuous (including myself).
> I stand by the rest and I'm not going to delineate every instance just to prove a point(s) that is obvious intuitively to even a casual observer. If you don't like it, tough. If you want a couple of examples, how about someone who insults a physically challenged individual or somebody who makes a stupid comment about a thread (possibly the gold standard for the dumbest comment ever made in any thread on any subject anywhere) where an individual was just trying to learn something?


Please provide a direct quote of someone insulting a physically challenged person.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Phantastic79 said:


> You may be right. I honestly don't know but I would guess that it's feasible. More users = more interest = more stakeholders.


Having worked intensively in advocacy for over the past decade, I can assure you that 10x more riders regardless of if they are on mtbs or emtbs, will result in the most mediocre of increases of people involved in advocacy or trail building. Most people just want to recreate and go home, they assume that trails simply exist on their own, or some ranger fixes them, or never even think about it.

The argument that more riders will be beneficial gets trotted out again and again and all I can say is more users of any sort are not good for trails or land management. There is a sweet spot where the level of users help keep trails compacted and from being overgrown, but I'd venture that 90% of trail systems are far past that already.

I'm not picking on you since we've all been in your shoes at some point, we enjoyed trails without giving it a second thought.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Harryman, you are right. By my estimate it is one in about 50 that actually do trail maintenance. So to gat 10 people looking after trails you would need 500 new trail users. Do you want another 500 people on your trails.
When mountain bikers showed up they weren't a problem until there were enough of them to start scaring hikers. Emtb's wont be of any concern until their numbers grow. If everyone who bought a emtb were converted cyclists then there probably wouldn't be any issues. But, most of the ones I have seen are new to the outdoors and don't have or care about any of the issues we face. So if any of you own a emtb then take it upon yourself to educate your fellow trail users.
On another note, a regular bicycle is called a bicycle. It has been called that for over 100 years.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

tiretracks said:


> I simply want the trails to exclude motor power. That's it, no other agenda and I don't care how many bicycles are on the trail on any given day, just don't want motorcycles. If someone has a legitimate disability and has an ADA placard they should get a pass. But I think that the disabled will quickly find out for themselves that the wild places that opens up to them are probably pretty hostile places if they find themselves without motor assist to get them back to a trail head. Chew on that for a while.


I completely agree with you. Some body will come unprepared mentally, physically, and mechanically and any one of those could fail leaving that person at risk. I'm sure it happens all the time. But is that any reason to exclude handicap people because they may be at higher risk? I don't think you believe that.

But I respect your opinion on excluding motor power. I understand that you don't want people doing burnouts and throwing up rooster tails tearing up the trails like a motorcycle, I dont want it either. But I can assure you very few ebikes can actually do that and not everyone that owns one is a dick. I think most people like me that are recently getting into riding will be reasonable people and everyone can get along on the trails.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

evasive said:


> You don't get it; what you wrote shows that clearly. It seems very few ebike proponents do, despite how many times it is clearly stated. Imagining that MTBrs are butthurt purists upset that ebikes are faster is a lot more comfortable than recognizing that ebikes exacerbate the issues related to MTBs and hikers sharing multiuse trails.
> 
> Yes, frequently. I help run a nonprofit and sit on two local boards. Most of the other long-time posters have similar commitments. But your response to trail work was "nobody has ever asked me" so I wouldn't expect you to have any understanding of the advocacy work going on in your area. You have to be motivated to get involved.


I honestly respect that you and your groups do what you do. It's great and the community needs it. I'm open to joining any efforts to advocate trail access and do any trail repair. In the context of trail repair I literally don't know what that actual entails. All the trails I have ever ridden seemed to be "natural trails" that get overgrown periodically because of lack of use. Are you referring to going through the trail with a weed wacker? Do you guys smooth out ruts? I wouldn't think you are allowed to mess with the trails in parks.

The only real man made think on the trails I've seen are a make shift ramp made out of sticks so you could jump over a bigass tree that fell and a sandbag(for erosion purposes I assume) on the edge of a 10 foot vertical drop that im sure very few people go over.

I have just started riding again like 6 months ago and I wasnt aware these trails even require maintenance. But now that I know I'll look into supporting any efforts in my area.

Bottom line is I like biking too and want to keep doing it peacefully.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Harryman said:


> Having worked intensively in advocacy for over the past decade, I can assure you that 10x more riders regardless of if they are on mtbs or emtbs, will result in the most mediocre of increases of people involved in advocacy or trail building. Most people just want to recreate and go home, they assume that trails simply exist on their own, or some ranger fixes them, or never even think about it.
> 
> The argument that more riders will be beneficial gets trotted out again and again and all I can say is more users of any sort are not good for trails or land management. There is a sweet spot where the level of users help keep trails compacted and from being overgrown, but I'd venture that 90% of trail systems are far past that already.
> 
> I'm not picking on you since we've all been in your shoes at some point, we enjoyed trails without giving it a second thought.


Thanks for that input. You may be absolutely correct unfortunately. As we see more users I hope we don't see the trail networks get shut down. I have lived in the SF bay area for decades and I did even realize theres tons of trails all around me. As far as I know nothing is getting shut down anytime soon around me but I'm going to look into it further.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Phantastic79 said:


> I honestly respect that you and your groups do what you do. It's great and the community needs it. I'm open to joining any efforts to advocate trail access and do any trail repair. In the context of trail repair I literally don't know what that actual entails. All the trails I have ever ridden seemed to be "natural trails" that get overgrown periodically because of lack of use. Are you referring to going through the trail with a weed wacker? Do you guys smooth out ruts? I wouldn't think you are allowed to mess with the trails in parks.
> 
> The only real man made think on the trails I've seen are a make shift ramp made out of sticks so you could jump over a bigass tree that fell and a sandbag(for erosion purposes I assume) on the edge of a 10 foot vertical drop that im sure very few people go over.
> 
> ...


The degree and nature of trail work varies a lot according to things like climate, geology, trail design, level of traffic, etc. Where I live it's mostly a matter of smoothing out brake bumps, and the trenches that develop in steep switchbacks when soils get dry and loose.

In some places people ride mostly legal trails, and in others many trails are illegal and kept secret. Here they're established system trails on public (city, USFS, or BLM) land, and maintenance is done under official agreements with the land managers. The kind of trails you're describing sound unofficial to me, but not knowing the area I could be wrong about that.

If you want to learn about trail work and access in your area, you could ask in the NorCal forum, search the web or social media for local groups, or ask in some local shops. There will be an active group of riders, and they're always happy to have new blood and enthusiasm.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

JACKL said:


> I really don't think so - I know I'm not. What I am against is having them classified the same as a regular bicycle, for reasons I've expressed ad nauseum. That doesn't mean they absolutely wouldn't be allowed on MTB trails, it just means that LMs would make that decision. I don't necessarily have an objection to them being classified differently than full-on motos, but certainly not the same as a pedal-powered bike.
> 
> We disagree on that point, and that's all it really boils down to.


I don't see anything wrong with classifying them separately. I was getting the impression that MTBRs want to outright ban them on all trails. If a land manager doesn't want any ebikes on a trail I'll respect that and go elsewhere. There's plenty of places to ride.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Walt said:


> I don't *want* 10 times more mountain bikers. Good lord, why would you want that? If you live in the Bay area I assume you are well aware of how crowded trails get...
> 
> -Walt


I just made up some numbers, but now that I think about it 10x more riders may totally suck. I just started riding in what is probably the off season. As the weather is getting better we'll probably see even more people out.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

evasive said:


> The degree and nature of trail work varies a lot according to things like climate, geology, trail design, level of traffic, etc. Where I live it's mostly a matter of smoothing out brake bumps, and the trenches that develop in steep switchbacks when soils get dry and loose.
> 
> In some places people ride mostly legal trails, and in others many trails are illegal and kept secret. Here they're established system trails on public (city, USFS, or BLM) land, and maintenance is done under official agreements with the land managers. The kind of trails you're describing sound unofficial to me, but not knowing the area I could be wrong about that.
> 
> If you want to learn about trail work and access in your area, you could ask in the NorCal forum, search the web or social media for local groups, or ask in some local shops. There will be an active group of riders, and they're always happy to have new blood and enthusiasm.


Thanks. I'll definitely do that. Most of the trails I ride exist on Google maps so I assumed they were somewhat official. But after some googling it, looks like people actually do groom the trails periodically for water drainage issues and to smooth out the runs. Would be nice if they did that on the trails I've ridden. I've gone through some heavily rutted and bumpy areas. Ive always thought that a how trails were supposed to be but now I'm starting to reconsider. Looking back on my last few runs the most damage i recall seeing comes from horses. They really tear up the trails.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wimpy doesn't pay until Tuesday.


If that's the case, then Wimpy will gladly pay you in March for an eMTB today. Besides, Tuesdays are for tacos and tequila! For which Wimpy will gladly offer to pay you Wednesday or later&#8230;

Seriously, the biggest reason for a fit rider to hop on an eMTB is for a different fun experience that allows him to ride longer faster, because of less stress on the climbs. That climbing benefit has to be weighed against the extra weight of the current eMTB's and hassles of charging them.

As a training device? Not sure there is real great potential there; it's an expensive device if used solely for that purpose. Recovery training after an injury or surgery makes sense (that's how I got started with eMTB's), but that rider is no longer a physically fit rider while injured or recovering. So we are back to a somewhat different "fun" experience that doesn't require as much physical effort. You still have to make an effort, just not as much; which for most average people means more fun.

That's why Wimpy likes eMTB's so much, less physical effort. I often wonder if that poor out of shape guy will ever pay for his lunches or pay off the eMTB charge card before someone comes knocking on his door; be it the doctor or the bank.

Getting more Wimpy's off their couches and onto bikes out of their houses getting some type of exercise (excluding commuting), seems to be the end game of the E-bike manufacturers in general. They are expensive fun!

Personally I'm still not sold on the PAS torque sensor power application thing only. A super light weight motor and battery that doesn't produce drag when turned off, and simply turned on with a button, thumb or twist throttle when "needed" is my ideal configuration. With that setup you could use an eMTB for training by only engaging it once you are at your limit, similar to a spotter when weight lifting.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

JACKL said:


> ...What I am against is having them classified the same as a regular bicycle, for reasons I've expressed ad nauseum. That doesn't mean they absolutely wouldn't be allowed on MTB trails, it just means that LMs would make that decision. I don't necessarily have an objection to them being classified differently than full-on motos, but certainly not the same as a pedal-powered bike...


That is basically what they did here in California. They gave Class 1 & 2 "access" to existing bicycle trails, while giving the local authorities the ability to exclude Class 1 & 2 and/or include Class 3 up at their discretion.

IMHO Class 1 & 2 aren't an issue on trails (others may disagree), but if they become an issue the authorities will take action using their local ordinances.


----------



## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Again, in California Electric Bicycles are no longer classified as Motorized Vehicles, but they are not classified as Bicycles. A new category of Electric Bicycle was created with a 1, 2 and 3 Class system. There remains a classification difference between: Bicycle, Electric Bicycle - Class 1, Electric Bicycle - Class 2, Electric Bicycle - Class 3, Moped and motorized whatever's...

That classification difference is what gives the local authorities the ability to break out what they want to allow on each and every trail. Unless local authorities take specific action to exclude the new Class 1 & 2 Electric Bicycles from trails, they are currently allowed, but Class 3 Electric Bicycles are not.

There is nothing that says the classification of Electric Bicycles as Bicycles, just the "access" of Class 1 & 2 unless specifically excluded by local ordinance.

At least that is my take on California's new changes.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Whiptastic said:


> Again, in California Electric Bicycles are no longer classified as Motorized Vehicles, but they are not classified as Bicycles. A new category of Electric Bicycle was created with a 1, 2 and 3 Class system. There remains a classification difference between: Bicycle, Electric Bicycle - Class 1, Electric Bicycle - Class 2, Electric Bicycle - Class 3, Moped and motorized whatever's...
> 
> That classification difference is what gives the local authorities the ability to break out what they want to allow on each and every trail. Unless local authorities take specific action to exclude the new Class 1 & 2 Electric Bicycles from trails, they are currently allowed, but Class 3 Electric Bicycles are not.
> 
> ...


Yep; 100% correct.

In in fewer words yet; in California e-bikes are not bikes but Classes 1 and 2 are conditionally permitted where bikes are permitted.

Also, the "...e-bikes...not motor vehicles..." has to do with licensing, insurance and registration; not access issues.

Getting back OT; another reason fit riders would ride an e-bike (MTB or otherwise) is because they're being paid to do so. Dozens of very fit pro riders are seen out on trails (or roads) on e-bikes just south of Silicon Valley because they are associated with Specialized and have been tasked with proving/promoting the brand's e-bike models.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

FIFY


Whiptastic said:


> That classification difference is what gives the local authorities the ability to break out what they want to allow on each and every trail *that is regulated by the vehicle code*. Unless local authorities take specific action to exclude the new Class 1 & 2 Electric Bicycles from trails, they are currently allowed * on trails regulated by the vehicle code*.


My understanding is that county and city parks are managed outside the vehicle code by parks departments just like federal land management agencies. This law does not clarify where ebikes can be ridden on trails in city, county or state parks that are not regulated by the vehicle code. However, local parks departments can allow ebiks on their trails if they like, just like they can allow motorbikes on there trails if they like, but the vehicle code does not have anything to do with regulating this since it is the individual parks departments that are responsible for controlling park access.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> FIFY
> 
> State, county and city parks are managed outside the vehicle code by parks departments just like federal land management agencies. This law does not clarify where ebikes can be ridden on trails in city, county or state parks. Since the law appears only in the vehicle code, it can only be enforced where the vehicle code has jurisdiction. However, local parks departments can allow ebiks on their trails if they like, just like they can allow motorbikes on there trails if they like, but the vehicle code does not have anything to do with regulating this.


Have you even read the law???

CA state and county parks are specifically included and city parks are under "any property"; the only land where the CVC does not apply is federal land (as you mentioned) and private property.

_21113. (a) *A person shall not drive a vehicle or animal*, or stop, park, or leave standing a vehicle or animal, whether attended or unattended, upon the driveways, paths, parking facilities, or the grounds of any public school, state university, state college, unit of the *state park* system, *county park*, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission created pursuant to Section 130050 of the Public Utilities Code, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or *any property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality*, or a state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or an educational institution exempted, in whole or in part, from taxation, or any harbor improvement district or harbor district formed pursuant to Part 2 (commencing with Section 5800) or Part 3 (commencing with Section 6000) of Division 8 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or state grounds served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol, or any property under the possession or control of a housing authority formed pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 34240) of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of Division 24 of the Health and Safety Code, *except with the permission of, and upon and subject to any condition or regulation that may be imposed by, the legislative body* of the municipality, or the governing board or officer of the public school, state university, state college, county park, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or educational institution, or harbor district, or a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or housing authority, or the Director of Parks and Recreation regarding units of the state park system or the state agency with jurisdiction over the grounds served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol._


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rlee said:


> On another note, a regular bicycle is called a bicycle. It has been called that for over 100 years.


x2^ no adjectives required.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> Have you even read the law???
> 
> CA state and county parks are specifically included and city parks are under "any property"; the only land where the CVC does not apply is federal land (as you mentioned) and private property.
> 
> _21113. (a) *A person shall not drive a vehicle or animal*, or stop, park, or leave standing a vehicle or animal, whether attended or unattended, upon the driveways, paths, parking facilities, or the grounds of any public school, state university, state college, unit of the *state park* system, *county park*, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission created pursuant to Section 130050 of the Public Utilities Code, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or *any property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality*, or a state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or an educational institution exempted, in whole or in part, from taxation, or any harbor improvement district or harbor district formed pursuant to Part 2 (commencing with Section 5800) or Part 3 (commencing with Section 6000) of Division 8 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or state grounds served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol, or any property under the possession or control of a housing authority formed pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 34240) of Chapter 1 of Part 2 of Division 24 of the Health and Safety Code, *except with the permission of, and upon and subject to any condition or regulation that may be imposed by, the legislative body* of the municipality, or the governing board or officer of the public school, state university, state college, county park, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission, joint powers agency operating or managing a commuter rail system, or state, county, or hospital district institution or building, or educational institution, or harbor district, or a district organized pursuant to Part 3 (commencing with Section 27000) of Division 16 of the Streets and Highways Code, or housing authority, or the Director of Parks and Recreation regarding units of the state park system or the state agency with jurisdiction over the grounds served by the Department of the California Highway Patrol._


Yes, but what does the vehicle code have to do with park access? Park/land managers control who and what is allowed to access the park/lands they control and where they can or cannot go within the park, not the CVC.

Simply put, the vehicle code does not regulate what type of vehicles are allowed to access state, county and city parks so why do you keep referring to it?


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> Yes, but what does the vehicle code have to do with park access? Park/land managers control who and what is allowed to access the park/lands they control and where they can or cannot go within the park, not the CVC.
> 
> Simply put, the vehicle code does not regulate what type of vehicles are allowed to access state, county and city parks so why do you keep referring to it?


Because unless the land manager says no the CVC says yes to Classes 1 and 2. That's why AB1096 included 21113.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Maybe I am not being clear enough. How does this new cvc law make determining access to state, county or city parks any different than before the law?

According to the CVC, I can ride a dirt bike off road if I want, but that doesn't mean I can ride anywhere off road. I have to check with those who manage the park/land to see if I can ride a moto in their park. The CVC has nothing to do with if I can or cannot ride a moto in that park. 

So why are you referring to the CVC with regards to ebike access on state, county or city park access?


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

^the CVC also say you can ride a bicycle on trails and paths, but that does not mean you can ride it on any trail or path. Like Mack says, you have to check with the park or land manager. The CVC has absolutely nothing to do with determining who or what can access parks.

Why is the vehicle code even being brought up on a mountain biking web site at all? It has nothing to do with where we ride. Road bike web site sure.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> So why are you referring to the CVC with regards to ebike access on state, county or city park access?


You just don't get it :madman::madman::madman:


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> You just don't get it :madman::madman::madman:


^i don't think there are any mountain bikers on this web site that get why you are talking about a vehicle code. We mountain bike and when you maountsin bike the vehicle code has absolutely not regulation over what you are doing, so why are you bringing up the CVC on a mountain bike web site?

Please answer this one quick question. If you were to start looking for a new park to go ride your MTB, would you check with the California vehicle code or the park to see if you are allowed to ride mtbs in that park?


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

For those that can read:

_"§ 4350. Reference to Vehicle Code.

14 CA ADC § 4350

Title 14. Natural Resources

Division 3. Department of Parks and Recreation

Chapter 2. Vehicles, Boats, Aircraft, Horses, and Operator Propelled Devices

14 CCR § 4350

§ 4350. Reference to Vehicle Code.
The provisions of the Vehicle Code relating to traffic upon highways shall be applicable to Departmental units except as provided by Departmental regulations in Title 14 herein, and such regulations contain the special conditions referred to in Section 21113 of the Vehicle Code.

Note: Authority cited: Section 5003, Public Resources Code. Reference: Section 21113, Vehicle Code.

HISTORY
1. Amendment filed 1-28-86; effective thirtieth day thereafter (Register 86, No. 5).
This database is current through 3/24/17 Register 2017, No. 12"_

This is the law specific to CA state parks; counties and cities will have something similar.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Whiptastic wrote "Seriously, the biggest reason for a fit rider to hop on an eMTB is for a different fun experience that allows him to ride longer faster, because of less stress on the climbs. That climbing benefit has to be weighed against the extra weight of the current eMTB’s and hassles of charging them."

^This is a great reason and mine as well. Trust me, I do plenty of climbing. I'm not super fit, but hold my own. I personally enjoy the Ebikes more on the road than in the mtns. I can take my wife and kids for awesome mountain rides, that there is no way they could do (yet) on a normal pedal bike. For me, my Turbo S allows me a lot more exploring longer distances. I have also noticed more power when riding my traditional mtb from riding the Turbo S. You don't spin you push. It has also made my road bike feel extremely fast. So, in a nutshell I have witnessed some gains from a ebike.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> For those that can read:
> 
> _"§ 4350. Reference to Vehicle Code.
> 
> ...


So what? That has nothing to do with access or who has control of it. I thought we were talking about trail access. What are you talking about?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tahoebeau said:


> So what? That has nothing to do with access or who has control of it. I thought we were talking about trail access. What are you talking about?


Let's talk ebike trail access. Very simple: LEGAL: Ride, ILLEGAL: No Ride. Don't care if you love them or hate them, I personally would not judge you as long as you follow the simple rule above. I don't care why you buy them, but most do to put a smile on their face.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tahoebeau said:


> Please answer this one quick question. If you were to start looking for a new park to go ride your MTB, would you check with the California vehicle code or the park to see if you are allowed to ride mtbs in that park?


What does this have to do with e-bikes?

But yes; once it's determined that a "regular" bike can be ridden somewhere then what follows is that per the CVC a Class 1 or 2 may be ridden there. Unless of course not permitted by the specifics of AB-1096.

If it doesn't say "no" you can "go".


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> What does this have to do with e-bikes?
> 
> But yes; once it's determined that a "regular" bike can be ridden somewhere then what follows is that per the CVC a Class 1 or 2 may be ridden there. Unless of course not permitted by the specifics of AB-1096.
> 
> If it doesn't say "no" you can "go".


Again, the vehicle code does not regulate access in state, county or city parks. In fact, it does not regulate anything I do while mountain biking in one of these parks and therefor does not determine if ebikes are allowed in a park the same as it does not determine if mtbs are allowed in a park.

If the vehicle code has authority over state, county or city parks, then name one, just one regulation in the vehicle code that I am required to obey when mountain biking.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^ Here in lays the confusion with Ebikes and their "fuzzy area" as far as trail access. I would recommend calling your Ranger and asking them first hand. If they say yes, golden. If not, go elsewhere. This is what "responsible" ebikers should do.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

^exactly, do just as you would if your were going to go on mountain bike ride in an area you were not sure about the access of. The CVC is of absolutely no use if you need to figure out trail access in a park regardless of if you are on a moto, MTB or ebike. Only the park managers can tell you if ebikes, mountain bikes or motos are allowed.

The vehicle code has nothing to do with access in state, county or city parks and therefore there is absolutely no reason to refer to it with regards to access of any kind in one of these parks.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

> If the vehicle code has authority over state, county or city parks, then name one, just one regulation in the vehicle code that I am required to obey when mountain biking.


CVC Section 38310:

_"The prima facie speed limit within 50 feet of any campground, campsite, or concentration of people or animals shall be 15 miles per hour unless changed as authorized by this code and, if so changed, only when signs have been erected giving notice thereof."_

This is regarding any vehicle operated off-highway. (Bicycles are vehicles BTW)


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> What does this have to do with e-bikes?
> 
> But yes; once it's determined that a "regular" bike can be ridden somewhere then what follows is that per the CVC a Class 1 or 2 may be ridden there. Unless of course not permitted by the specifics of AB-1096.
> 
> If it doesn't say "no" you can "go".


Again, the CVC does not have anything to do with park access. Call the park and ask them if you can ride your emtb, if they say yes then roll on. Ebikes and bicycles are not that same thing by definition anymore than a motorbike is the same as an ebike, so you need to be clear as to what type of vehicle your riding.

If access is controlled by a park/land manager then they determine what type of vehicles can be used on their land. If the trail is regulated by the CVC, then follow what the CVC says.

There are numerous articles backing up exactly what I said above and refuting what More Ped is saying. I will take the word of professionals who write these articles over what some random person on a forum believes.

Here is an excerpt from one article from an electric bike website.

https://electricbikereport.com/the-new-california-e-bike-law-electric-mountain-bikes/

"Many have asked how this affects eMTB access on trails in city, county, and state parks. The important distinction is that this law applies only to the California Vehicle Code.

State, county and city parks are managed outside of the vehicle code, just as the federal land management agencies. "Bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail" is commonly used in the Vehicle Code, and is the preferred way to discuss path/trail access, even for paved or soft-surface bikeways.

In short, the Vehicle Code does not regulate trails in the State Parks. Trails are regulated separately by parks departments, which control access. This law does not clarify where eMTBs can be ridden on trails in city, county, and state parks."


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> Again, the CVC does not have anything to do with park access. Call the park and ask them if you can ride your emtb, if they say yes then roll on. Ebikes and bicycles are not that same thing by definition anymore than a motorbike is the same as an ebike, so you need to be clear as to what type of vehicle your riding.
> 
> If access is controlled by a park/land manager then they determine what type of vehicles can be used on their land. If the trail is regulated by the CVC, then follow what the CVC says.
> 
> ...


That article was by ex-IMBA staffer Morgan Lommele and was written back in 2015. I'm familiar with it. She was wrong and so are you.

The were several versions of the e-bike law advancing through the legislative process, one of which would have resulted in the law reading like Ms Lommele suggests. It wasn't the version that was signed into law though. Google AB 1096

Isn't it fun how far these threads can drift off-topic?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

EVERY thread turns into trail access sooner or later...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> EVERY thread turns into trail access sooner or later...


Because bicycle access was very hard won and most aren't willing to put it at risk for the sake of a few motorbikes.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Because bicycle access was very hard won and most aren't willing to put it at risk for the sake of a few motorbikes.


+++:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Because bicycle access was very hard won and most aren't willing to put it at risk for the sake of a few motorbikes.


Views on trail access vary wildly state by state. The country is turning pro bike in many places. If you live in a state full of lettuce eaters then by all means tread cautiously. If you live in a state where people embrace many forms of outdoor recreation and are more level headed then just ignore the haters.

I've seen places where the motos were kicked out of years ago. Now, at these same places the local government has gone in with trail cutting machines and cut miles and miles of 5 ft wide dirt highways for mountain bike useage. Explain to me how an area like that is going to be shut down from ebike usage? The answer is it is not ever going to be shut down. As more old people buy electric assist the more demand there will be for places like that. The ebiker is a valuable ally, not the enemy. However, the much different high powered/high speed ebikes are nothing more than a fad and will not be highly favored. With high speeds on two wheels you need bigger tires, bigger suspensions, moto type gear (read heavy gear) to ride safely and have fun. I have three motos. Why would I want to give up riding a KX250L or CR250 or DR 650 to ride a high speed bicycle? That is just plane insane. However, I would gladly ride a mountain bike that gives a little assist for the hard hills.

To bring the thread back on topic I would offer a good reason a fit rider would want an ebike is so that his/her spouse can ride and keep up. It is a great marriage builder. Why be an Olympic level rider and leave your spouse always struggling to keep up and making them always feel insecure or inadequate. My wife is not a mountain biker or athlete by any definition. She is a busy working mother that can barely ride. Last fall I wanted to take my wife up in the mountains and see the fall colors. There is one trail that has this hill that is loose gravel and in the hot sun. Even though I am in great shape I struggle on this hill and end up walking my bike 75% of the time. I took my wife out there on a Levo. She didn't even acknowledge that there was a hard area on the trail at all and buzzed right up. We also hit the aphalt with her on the ebike and me on a road bike. Sometimes she pulls me up steep hills with her Levo and gets a big kick out it. We did the tandem bike thing for years. This ebike is much better. If you are super fit rider, your spouse can [on an ebike] pack the lunch, tools, water, kid, and the kitchen sink and still keep up. What a great invention!


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thanks to the respondents of the original question. TO ME, it was interesting and compelling to read the myriad of viable answers.
Thanks also to those who don't embrace eMTB, but respond thoughtfully and believe, like me, that it is a different experience and should be accepted or rejected on its merits.
No thanks to the despicable creeps who use unctuous concern for others safety, technical mumbe-jumbo or some other malarkey for their comments when it's patently obvious their motivating factor is greed.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

[email protected] lettuce eaters! As opposed to manly mammal munchers?



Giant Warp said:


> Why would I want to give up riding a KX250L or CR250 or DR 650 to ride a high speed bicycle?


So you could ride some sweet singletrack that would get you thrown in jail if you tried it on your CR250?

Fun is the best answer to the OP imo.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> CVC Section 38310:
> 
> _"The prima facie speed limit within 50 feet of any campground, campsite, or concentration of people or animals shall be 15 miles per hour unless changed as authorized by this code and, if so changed, only when signs have been erected giving notice thereof."_
> 
> This is regarding any vehicle operated off-highway. (Bicycles are vehicles BTW)


Keep trying because while a bicycle is a vehicle, it is one without a motor and items in section 38000 only refers to "off highway motor vehicles" and does not in anyway apply to my mountain bike.

So again the vehicle code has no regulation on how or where I ride my mountain bike in park lands. Only the park managers regulate that so why are you referring to a vehicle code for access to park lands the vehicle code does not control access to?

38001. (a) Except as otherwise provided, this division applies to off-highway motor vehicles, as defined in Section 38006, on lands, other than a highway, that are open and accessible to the public, including any land acquired, developed, operated, or maintained, in whole or in part, with money from the Off-Highway Vehicle Trust Fund, except private lands under the immediate control of the owner or his or her agent where permission is required and has been granted to operate a motor vehicle. For purposes of this division, the term "highway" does not include fire trails, logging roads, service roads regardless of surface composition, or other roughly graded trails and roads upon which vehicular travel by the public is permitted.
(b) Privately owned and maintained parking facilities that are generally open to the public are exempt from this division, unless the facilities are specifically declared subject to this division by the procedure specified in Section 21107.8.
(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 563, Sec. 37. Effective January 1, 2003.)

38006. As used in this division, an "off-highway motor vehicle" is any of the following:
(a) A motor vehicle subject to the provisions of subdivision (a) of Section 38010.
(b) A motor vehicle registered under Section 4000, when such motor vehicle is operated on land to which this division has application.
(c) A motor vehicle owned or operated by a nonresident of this state, whether or not such motor vehicle is identified or registered in a foreign jurisdiction, when such motor vehicle is operated on lands to which this division has application.
(Added by Stats. 1976, Ch. 1093.)


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> [email protected] lettuce eaters! As opposed to manly mammal munchers?
> 
> So you could ride some sweet singletrack that would get you thrown in jail if you tried it on your CR250?
> 
> Fun is the best answer to the OP imo.


I would love to answer that question. First lets take the downhill out of question. When coming downhill on some sweet single track there really is no difference as far as a "trail concern" between the mtn bk and ebike and moto. The ebike is not using the battery coming downhill. I've coasted many a downhill on the moto with the motor off. It saves fuel, makes the ride quiet, helps you sneak up on horses and hikers and wild life etc....

The only concern, IMO, would be the uphill. I've given the analogy previously between a 125 moto and 450 moto. When you get a 450 you don't want to ride in the places that were awesome on the 125. You look for bigger and faster places. Excluding the class I and class II ebikes, the super powerful ebike just isn't going to be at home on a local trail filled with hikers and dogs and slow bikers. They are going to try and find a place where they can open it up and rip. Then they are going to find out that skinny tires, tiny bicycle chains, weak rear "bicycle" hubs, and light weight spokes just don't hold up to huge power. They will find out that stuff wears out quickly and breaks. Ie: expensive repairs. They will also find out the skinny bike tires don't hold traction under high loads. Ie: excessive tire wear or spinning out and crashing. Do you really want to roost a $85 bicycle tire? Bike tires wear out so fast under regular conditions. So you see, these new fangled high power ebikes will never be popular or a threat to local trails. Even on streets they will be a joke. It's all I can do now to not get ran over on the asphalt on a regular bike. If you increase a bicycle's speed on the asphalt to a moto's speed you are just asking to win the Darwin award.

Cheers


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> Because bicycle access was very hard won and most aren't willing to put it at risk for the sake of a few motorbikes.


I didn't ask why, I just stated the facts.
I don't think you need to worry about a few emotorbikers as there will be many out to terrorize YOUR precious singletrack! Look for me, I'll have a Slayer shirt on and twizzlers hanging out of my back pocket. Also, my helmet may be on backwards!


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Government sanctioned ebikes?

https://deq.utah.gov/news/tag/eco-pass


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> Government sanctioned ebikes?
> 
> https://deq.utah.gov/news/tag/eco-pass


No one here gives two hoots about commuters.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tahoebeau said:


> Keep trying because while a bicycle is a vehicle, it is one without a motor and items in section 38000 only refers to "off highway motor vehicles" and does not in anyway apply to my mountain bike.
> 
> So again the vehicle code has no regulation on how or where I ride my mountain bike in park lands. Only the park managers regulate that so why are you referring to a vehicle code for access to park lands the vehicle code does not control access to?
> 
> ...


Okay; ya' got me on that one.

How about this Santa Clara County Parks bicycle ordinance; refers to the CVC a couple of times:

_"Sec. B14-42.2. - Bicycle trails.
(a)
Park trails and roads may be used in the following manner consistent with their posted designation.
(1)
The Director may establish bicycle trails in County parks.
(2)
The Director or designee may temporarily close a bicycle trail in order to ensure the safety of persons or property or to protect the environment.
(3)
The Director may temporarily prohibit the operation of bicycles on park roads and trails.
(b)
No person shall operate or possess a bicycle within a County park except:
(1)
On trails designated as "bicycle trails" or with other similar signage or symbol;
(2)
On trails and park roads that are the responsibility of the Department, as long as the operation of bicycles is not prohibited by appropriate signage.
(c)
No person shall operate a bicycle in a County park in a manner that is:
(1)
Negligent, unsafe or reckless, or in any way that endangers any person or property;
(2)
At a speed greater than 15 miles per hour;
(3)
At a speed which is greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, a park road or bicycle trial or at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property;
(4)
In violation of any applicable provision of the California Vehicle Code.
(d)
A person operating a bicycle in a County park shall yield to all equestrians and hikers who are crossing a bicycle trail, highway, street or road. When approaching equestrians or hikers from the rear, the person operating a bicycle shall audibly warn of his or her presence and, when passing, exercise due care.
(e)
Pursuant to Vehicle Code § 21212, persons under age 18 operating a bicycle, non-motorized scooter or skateboard must wear an ANSI, Snell, or other state-approved helmet for head protection on bicycle trails, pathways and promenades in County parks.
(f)
All persons age 18 years and over operating a bicycle must wear an ANSI, Snell, or other state-approved helmet for head protection on unpaved bicycle trails in County Parks.
(g)
A person skating or rollerblading in a County park shall yield to all equestrians and hikers who are crossing a bicycle trail, highway, street or road. The skater or rollerblader shall audibly warn of his or her presence and, when passing, exercise due care.
(Ord. No. NS-702.89, § 2, 12-18-01; Ord. No. NS-702.91, § 17, 9-25-07)"_


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> First lets take the downhill out of question...........


I wasn't trying to rehash that well oiled argument, just giving one reason why someone might park their 250 and shell out $7,000 for a stealth electric moto.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> No one here gives two hoots about commuters.


LOL dude. People that ride ebikes at work BUY ebikes to ride trails on the weekend. Total indoctrination.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> LOL dude. People that ride ebikes at work BUY ebikes to ride trails on the weekend. Total indoctrination.


Total BS, cite some reliable figures that show this.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'll be your huckleberry..


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> Excluding the class I and class II ebikes, the super powerful ebike just isn't going to be at home on a local trail filled with hikers and dogs and slow bikers. They are going to try and find a place where they can open it up and rip. Then they are going to find out that skinny tires, tiny bicycle chains, weak rear "bicycle" hubs, and light weight spokes just don't hold up to huge power. They will find out that stuff wears out quickly and breaks. Ie: expensive repairs. They will also find out the skinny bike tires don't hold traction under high loads. Ie: excessive tire wear or spinning out and crashing. Do you really want to roost a $85 bicycle tire? Bike tires wear out so fast under regular conditions. So you see, these new fangled high power ebikes will never be popular or a threat to local trails. Even on streets they will be a joke. It's all I can do now to not get ran over on the asphalt on a regular bike. If you increase a bicycle's speed on the asphalt to a moto's speed you are just asking to win the Darwin award.


I agree that even with 250w, emtbs are reaching the limits of what bike parts can deal with, especially drive trains. I can tell you for certain that the industry is responding and planning for 750w emtbs by going heavier and stronger all the way around. As far as high powered ebikes go, the privateers solution to blowing up wheels is to use moto rims, heavy spokes and either moped or trials tires. Lots of power minimizes the weight penalty.

We're so used to looking at emtbs from a mtb perspective, we often don't think about that there's a market for moto guys who see it as a way to ride trails close to home.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I'll be your huckleberry..


Dude, are you always this weird or is this some online persona?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> So what? That has nothing to do with access or who has control of it. I thought we were talking about trail access. What are you talking about?


Because it is the CVC that Defined Class 1, 2 and 3 Electric Bikes..... so yes, the CVC does have something to do with trail access in California.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> Dude, are you always this weird or is this some online persona?


Yes, I am always weird, too much Hammer Heed and Vodka! I do own both Ebikes now, road and mtn. I'm not a poacher, allow riders on my land, so I'm not a rider you need to worry about, unless I flask up!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Haven't you ever seen Tombstone? Awesome flick.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Yes, I am always weird, too much Hammer Heed and Vodka! I do own both Ebikes now, road and mtn. I'm not a poacher, allow riders on my land, so I'm not a rider you need to worry about, unless I flask up!


With all due respect, why do you even enter into these discussions of access on PUBLIC lands when you admit to riding on private lands? TBO, it smacks of trolling.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> With all due respect, why do you even enter into these discussions of access on PUBLIC lands when you admit to riding on private lands? TBO, it smacks of trolling.


Because the amount of anti ebikers that post on here grossly outweigh the guys that also ride Ebikes, and well this is an ebike forum. I have been on bikes since racing bmx and i gotta tell you, these are fun if ridden responsibly. I voice my views from experience, not speculation.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Because the amount of anti ebikers that post on here grossly outweigh the guys that also ride Ebikes, and well this is an ebike forum. I have been on bikes since racing bmx and i gotta tell you, these are fun if ridden responsibly. I voice my views from experience, not speculation.


Most of us have skin in the game with expierience, advocacy, policy, trail building etc. and this is a mountain biking site after all. Not speculation.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> Most of us have skin in the game with expierience, advocacy, policy, trail building etc. and this is a mountain biking site after all. Not speculation.


You don't own an ebike and are SPECULATING on the future. You have no idea my involvement, but whatever tiretracks. Skin in the game.. ra ra ra! Don't hate the players, hate the game. We are simply consumers, it's the industry that you should direct your hatred.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> You don't own an ebike and are SPECULATING on the future. You have no idea my involvement, but whatever tiretracks. Skin in the game.. ra ra ra! Don't hate the players, hate the game. We are simply consumers, it's the industry that you should direct your hatred.


Pragmatism should never be construed as hatred.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tahoebeau said:


> Keep trying because while a bicycle is a vehicle, it is one without a motor and items in section 38000 only refers to "off highway motor vehicles" and does not in anyway apply to my mountain bike.
> 
> So again the vehicle code has no regulation on how or where I ride my mountain bike in park lands. Only the park managers regulate that so why are you referring to a vehicle code for access to park lands the vehicle code does not control access to?
> 
> ...


Jeez; feel so strongly you started another http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/vehicle-code-trail-access-1042637.html thread?

Here's what I posted there and should have posted here previously (Please note "Vehicles, Boats, Aircraft, Horses, and *Operator Propelled Devices*"):

_Title 14. Natural Resources

Division 3. Department of Parks and Recreation

Chapter 2. Vehicles, Boats, Aircraft, Horses, and Operator Propelled Devices

14 CCR § 4353

§ 4353. Speed Limits.

(a) In no event shall a vehicle be driven at a speed greater than 15 miles per hour in camps, picnic areas, utility areas, or headquarters areas or in areas where the general public assembles;

(b) In all other areas the Department, based on the results of a traffic and engineering survey as defined in Section 627 of the California Vehicle Code may, by order, determine a speed limit. which shall be effective when appropriate signs are placed in accordance with Section 4301(q). All speed limit signs that are placed in accordance with Section 21401 of the California Vehicle Code in place on January 1, 1980, are hereby ratified and confirmed. until changed pursuant to engineering and traffic surveys;

(c) In newly acquired or developed areas, the Department may establish a speed limit which will be in effect for a period not exceeding 120 days.

Note: Authority cited: Section 5003, Public Resources Code. Reference: Sections 21113 and 22350, Vehicle Code; Section 5001.8, Public Resources Code.

HISTORY

1. Amendment filed 5-25-79; effective thirtieth day thereafter (Register 79, No. 21).

2. Amendment filed 1-28-86; effective thirtieth day thereafter (Register 86, No. 5).

3. Change without regulatory effect amending section filed 6-18-96 pursuant to section 100, title 1, California Code of Regulations (Register 96, No. 25).

This database is current through 3/24/17 Register 2017, No. 12

14 CCR § 4353, 14 CA ADC § 4353_


----------



## grizzlybiker (Jan 24, 2017)

A Fit rider can get the same workout on an ebike as a regular bike. An ebike could open up some real fun possibilities with the ability to go up and down a lot faster thus more runs. 

It's about fun...

If I lived out West I would definitely rent one every once in a while. Not sure it will be that great on the east coast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Here you go

360, 4360.1- Trail Use
§ 4360. Bicycles, Operator Propelled Devices. Trail use.
Unless designated by the Department, all trails are open to pedestrians and closed to all other
uses. No person shall operate an operator or gravity propelled device in any unit, or portion
thereof, when the Department has issued an order prohibiting such activity. The Department
may establish speed limits for designated trail use for units or portions thereof in which these
devices are used. If established, these sSpeed limits will be posted.
4360.1. Trails in Reserves and Preserves as defined in PRC Sections 5019.65, 5019.71 and
5019.74 may be designated for bicycle or equestrian use when the District Superintendent has
determined after appropriate review and analysis that such use is important for public access to
the area or to make important connections to other trails and where it has been determined that
impacts to the special resources for which the area was established will be less than significant.
Note: Authority cited: Section 5003, Public Resources Code. Reference: Sections 5008,
5019.65, 5019.71, 5019.74, 5024 and 5024.5 Public Resources Code


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Gutch, you need to understand that, while the subject was initiated by the MTBR upper echelon, it should be called anti-ebike. Otherwise in what strange universe would the individual(s) who moderate be vehemently anti-ebike. Look at the original question; any reasonable moderator(s) would warn, then ban any of these individuals who detest ebikes while having no experience with them who keep warning of the dangers they cause that never happen.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Gutch, you need to understand that, while the subject was initiated by the MTBR upper echelon, it should be called anti-ebike. Otherwise in what strange universe would the individual(s) who moderate be vehemently anti-ebike. Look at the original question; any reasonable moderator(s) would warn, then ban any of these individuals who detest ebikes while having no experience with them who keep warning of the dangers they cause that never happen.


Let's get a few things straight.

1) Walt is NOT the moderator of this forum.

2) Disagreeing with you doesn't constitute a violation of the MTBR terms and conditions.

3) "the dangers they cause that never happen". Various groups are already using e-bikes as antibike examples in an effort to deny MTBs access to trails.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Le Duke said:


> Let's get a few things straight.
> 
> 1) Walt is NOT the moderator of this forum.


Yes. The forum mod here is 100% pro e-bike.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> individuals who detest ebikes while having no experience with them who keep warning of the dangers they cause that never happen.


That's pure conjecture on your part, there are some horsey and hiker groups already weaponizing emotorbikes in their bids to ban all bicycles.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

1) I didn't say Walt was the moderator; my reference was to the super moderator. I realize you're one of Walt's toadies, but that's really a stretch.
2) How can you disagree with the question "Why..."? You should learn to think.
3) How come nobody ever mentioned any specific examples of ebikes causing the loss of MTB access considering all the anti-ebike rhetoric spewed out here? There's been the nebulous crap that you just repeated.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> That's pure conjecture on your part, there are some horsey and hiker groups already weaponizing emotorbikes in their bids to ban all bicycles.


OK, TT (usually enjoy your posts even though we don't ALWAYS agree), but that is just like the usual useless verbiage (that is, no examples).


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

All any antibike person or organization would have to do to collect "evidence" about e-bikes is read a few threads on MTBR. Where people admit to riding bikes well above the legal limit of power, or riding them on trails they are not allowed on at all.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Total BS, cite some reliable figures that show this.


Look no further than the psychology of product placement. Here is a real world example. My sister teaches at a grade school. Apple bought all the teachers and all the students Ipads and laptops. The kids grow up using apple all through their school years and then guess what they buy when they are adults? Cities are going all in on the ebike commuter versions. Regardless of one's hatred of the new technology it is only a matter of time before the young and old alike merge on the demand for trail access. The old ways are dead. Again, the pace of change is going to be affected by the state that you live in.

The kids have been taught global warming since kindee garten. They are total believers in all things electric that save the planet be it solar panels, electric cars, or say hmmmmmm........electric bikes. It is very interesting for me to watch the "green" indoctrination show up in ebikes. The ebike haters never seen this coming and they probably supported all the "save the planet" indoctrination taught in the public schools. I'll just sit back and enjoy the show  . Cheers


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

This story cites ebikers on a trail access issue. Very good read.

Part One: The Vitality of Trust | BIKE Magazine

Part Two: Where Tradition Meets Progress | BIKE Magazine

The Untold Story of Montana?s De-facto Wilderness Roots | BIKE Magazine


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> 2) Disagreeing with you doesn't constitute a violation of the MTBR terms and conditions.


I would like to second this.

Mtbr Posting Guidelines

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/before-you-post-here-ebike-forum-rules-read-me-1022310.html

Also, just an FYI, I am neither Pro nor Anti eBike. I do my best to stay neutral on this topic.

Also, no more talk of trail access, this thread is about the merits of a fit rider using an ebike.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I was totally out of line and apologize to the Super Moderator who I have immense respect for as a person for many reasons. Sorry. Also, have had conversations with TT and he seems like a great guy although we don't see eye to eye. If you're experiencing access issues, hope you can derail them.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

..................moved


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Just wanted to reply to this thread specifically to the context of trail use and degredation. I was riding my ebike yesterday in a legal area and climbing up steeps hill in low gear. As I'm climbing the motor allows the wheels to spin at a consistent rate. Taking me smoothly up the hill. I do actually like to excercise and when I encounter other humans on the trail I just pedal, no motor. What I noticed is that when I'm pedaling the wheels seems to dig into the trail more than if I use motor assistance. Probably from my smashing on the pedals. 

This is just a beginners observation. Seems for me and my bike motor assistance does less impact as I lose traction much less than just pedaling. I could be way off or I could just be an outlier. 

Also, I do realize that having a motor may allow users more runs than normal so maybe this savings is negligible​. 

Going downhill I don't think I affect the trails anymore than a regular bike. I made my own ebike and it only added about 25 lbs or so to the bike. 

Just my opinion guys. Feel free to tell me im wrong.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

I see an ebike rider every so often tag along with the shop group ride that I go to every month. The last group ride had one that was on a brand I never heard of (might have been a Merida clone). I passed him after he pulled off to the side of the trail due to some malfunction, but he caught up to the pack. Didn't solve his lack of skill problem though. The others on past rides were the same way, just casually wanting to ride with more serious riders, but not really into having the same "fun" as the others.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Phantastic79 said:


> I made my own ebike and it ONLY added about 25 lbs or so to the bike.


wait. What?!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

zooey said:


> Didn't solve his lack of skill problem though. The others on past rides were the same way, just casually wanting to ride with more serious riders, but not really into having the same "fun" as the others.


Which is why you won't find your favorite gnar overrun with ebikes.
Most ebikers won't have the skill to ride it.
For that matter, even if you have the skills,
how do you manual or bunny-hop something that heavy?
Do you rely totally on wheelies?


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

So far in Texas, I've not see a single e-bike on the trail. God bless Texas!


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

*****


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

zooey said:


> I see an ebike rider every so often tag along with the shop group ride that I go to every month. The last group ride had one that was on a brand I never heard of (might have been a Merida clone). I passed him after he pulled off to the side of the trail due to some malfunction, but he caught up to the pack. Didn't solve his lack of skill problem though. The others on past rides were the same way, just casually wanting to ride with more serious riders, but not really into having the same "fun" as the others.


Last summer I found several MTB schools and trainers online, sent them emails asking if they had any trainings or programs for an ebike rider and got zero replies. You didn't seem very willing to help out the guy you saw on the trail either, so how are we supposed to get any better?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Last summer I found several MTB schools and trainers online, sent them emails asking if they had any trainings or programs for an ebike rider and got zero replies. You didn't seem very willing to help out the guy you saw on the trail either, so how are we supposed to get any better?


By riding bikes like everyone else.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> wait. What?!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


My bike weighs about 80lbs. It was an older Downhill frame so the bike was hella heavy to begin with. I think about 55-60lbs. And 25lbs is pretty standard for motor and battery add-on depending on type. I could've shaved off a few pounds going with a smaller batt. It I opted for the super 20ah batt.

But anyways I can ride and pedal the bike as a bike just fine. Every trail that I've gone on so far From great. The dual crown forks and long travel make going downhill really plush. Even really tight switchbacks I don't have any issues but I'm not trying to race down.

I'm just a beginner and ive only ridden on multiuse trails so I keep my speed low to not plow into hikers. I haven't taken the bike to an actual MTB park where I could go all out x games style yet. But I have gone down some steep open and hiker free runs pretty fast and can maneuver around the trail fine. At speed I don't really feel the weight of the bike much.

Are you guys riding trial trails where you have to do trackstands and bunny hop over logs and rocks to get around trail obstacles? I encounter a few 2' logs periodically but that's about as crazy an obstacle I've encountered so far.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

WoodlandHills said:


> Last summer I found several MTB schools and trainers online, sent them emails asking if they had any trainings or programs for an ebike rider and got zero replies. You didn't seem very willing to help out the guy you saw on the trail either, so how are we supposed to get any better?


He was checking out his electronics. Was just after the first short incline of the ride. Hence malfunction, instead of mechanical.

Charging into chunk requires upper body strength. A strong core is the base of all techniques, as it's responsible for maintaining good rider position. The ped-elec style of ebike mainly just adds watts to your pedaling output, having some pros/cons of extra weight and complexity. Go further, faster, higher than normal as if you had some base cardio training added on.

I personally want to see ped-elecs branch into those velo-mobile full fairing type recumbent bikes. Imagine what the benefits of economy of scale could do to pump life into that sector.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> By riding bikes like everyone else.


Which I do.

However, let me point out that by excluding people from a community it is much more difficult to educate them as to accepted norms and expectations than if they were accepted.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Which I do.
> 
> However, let me point out that by excluding people from a community it is much more difficult to educate them as to accepted norms and expectations than if they were accepted.


Excluding people is a norm. Mountain bikers are excluded from places, motorcyclists hikers and equestrians from others. This is the accepted norm everywhere except in your myopic world.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Which I do.
> 
> However, let me point out that by excluding people from a community it is much more difficult to educate them as to accepted norms and expectations than if they were accepted.


 Not excluding you. Just your motorized vehicle.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

My ebike is totally legal where I ride: I am not excluded from any of the trails I ride. But it sure seems like I am excluded from the MTB community based upon the responses here. My question was how you all expect anyone to learn trail ettiquite, riding norms, courtesy, etc much less technique if schools, riding instructors etc boycott ebikes. How will you ever recruit trail workers, maintenance crews, etc or solicit donations and support from this group if they, quite correctly, feel they are not wanted.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Excluding people is a norm. Mountain bikers are excluded from places, motorcyclists hikers and equestrians from others. This is the accepted norm everywhere except in your myopic world.


 Do you need me to explain the difference between a trail and a community? Between a physical location and a social grouping?


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Do you need me to explain the difference between a trail and a community? Between a physical location and a social grouping?


Your community is different than mine. Social groupings have no bearing on laws that preclude various modes of travel on off of the road trails. Do you need me to further explain that? Your trying to base inclusiveness in the dirt solely upon social community is where you continue to flail and fail.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

guys, either stay on topic or take your conversation elsewhere.


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

I didn't read everything in the meat of this thread, but I want to preface this with I have zero problem with e-bikes on legal trails.

That being said, the fun stuff, to me is in the downs and I've found a good all around fun rig which is totally pedal worthy and fun and punchy on the downs is usually in the 30-35lb range.

That being said I would have very little fun trying to descend on a 60lb behemoth.

If you're ADA and that's all you can ride, get out and do what you can. Get outside and have fun.

As a capable person I would choose a real pedal bike or a dirt bike, to me at my fitness level, an ebike is some kind of aweful thing that makes climbing fun and descending suck, which is opposite MTB to-me anyways.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

mattyice said:


> I didn't read everything in the meat of this thread, but I want to preface this with I have zero problem with e-bikes on legal trails.
> 
> That being said, the fun stuff, to me is in the downs and I've found a good all around fun rig which is totally pedal worthy and fun and punchy on the downs is usually in the 30-35lb range.
> 
> ...


I'm completely able and can ride just fine. I actually just got a 2012 SC Nomad C and I love it. Haven't ridden it except once. I assume you guys go out riding for like 3-5 hours minimum and take the whole weekends sometime. I haven't been around to do that yet. Kid, errands , work, wedding plans...Life but plan to soon.

In the mean time I like riding my electric bike when I'm short on time. In the morning before work I can go on an hour ride and and make through a few single track hill runs. In my peak physical form I don't think I could get 1 run in an hour. That's the main reason I ride the ebike now. Quick fun runs.

On the Downhill I haven't encountered any trail that was too nargly for me to go down. Bike handles fine and the long travel helps. But im still new and I've only been to a few areas around me. Going downhill having some weight seems to make my ebike hand better than my Nomad. The Nomad is very twitchy while my ebike feels very smooth. But also I'm not going balls out since I've only ridden multiuse trails and I'm probably not use to the new bike yet.

Whatever the case its fun every time I ride.


----------



## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Phantastic79 said:


> I'm completely able and can ride just fine. I actually just got a 2012 SC Nomad C and I love it. Haven't ridden it except once. I assume you guys go out riding for like 3-5 hours minimum and take the whole weekends sometime. I haven't been around to do that yet. Kid, errands , work, wedding plans...Life but plan to soon.
> 
> In the mean time I like riding my electric bike when I'm short on time. In the morning before work I can go on an hour ride and and make through a few single track hill runs. In my peak physical form I don't think I could get 1 run in an hour. That's the main reason I ride the ebike now. Quick fun runs.
> 
> ...


I'm not ever going to knock anyone who wants to have fun.

I just was saying I don't want to try manhandle an e-beast pointed downhill.Thats just not my particular brand of biking. I just wanted to the weight in as an able bodied cyclist

If you have one and like it, rock it.

And I wish I had the time for mega rides, but sometimes an hour or an hour and a half is all I get, as I'm in the same situation as you. Married with kids and all that fun stuff.

Different strokes for different folks, as it were.

If it's fun and feels good and gets you outside, rip it.

Also, one man's twitchy is another man's poppy fun town.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You are riding multiuse trails on your 3kW 80# DH bike?

Wow.

I figured you were riding moto trails or something. 

Yikes.

-Walt


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

tiretracks said:


> Excluding people is a norm. Mountain bikers are excluded from places, motorcyclists hikers and equestrians from others. This is the accepted norm everywhere except in your myopic world.


Tire tracks I'm not sure what state you are in, but in my state of 35 million people, the signs usually say: hikers, bikers, dogs, and horses are allowed, motorized vehicles not allowed, or they say no one is allowed, period. So bikes are basically always allowed if hikers are allowed. E-bikes, that's a different story, I'm not sure.


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

It appears BikeRadar has a couple answers for the OP's question: Two Very Good Reasons to Love an e-MTB.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

MattMay said:


> It appears BikeRadar has a couple answers for the OP's question: Two Very Good Reasons to Love an e-MTB.


From my perspective; "One very good reason and one very bad reason".

I agree on the "trail maintenance" issue; it's how I use my e-bike/moped to good effect. I can easily do 2 or 3X the amount of trail maintenance on a given day by traveling via e-bike as opposed to using a regular MTB.

On the "trail exploration" issue I think the writer of the article is exploiting a situation that is rather unique to him; "...lucky to live in the middle of a forest that spans over a million acres...". Yeah lucky him (insert envious here) and I surely hope "his" forest has plenty of OHV trails.

The writer's "...that's too far, that's too steep, that's too rugged..." (for him to ride a normal MTB) has him putting quantity over quality; an e-bike allows him to bag more trails so this makes him a better person.

BTW me doing more trail maintenance _does_ make me a better person...

(To the the original intent of this thread this article implies that a_ fit_ rider doesn't need an e-bike; this guy's "...pair of spindly legs and a questionable lower back..." defines him well)

If riding an e-bike is great buy a moto and you'll find nirvana.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Moe Ped again.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Any guesses on what would be the precentage of ebikes used for trail maintenance? It's a nice thought and I could see the usefulness in some cases, but the reality is that there will be Moe Ped and like 10 other people using them legitimately in the US for this purpose. 

A) Mainly because not that many people do maintenance.
B) Most land agents and trail orgs won't let you ride in with full sized tools on a workday due to liability.
C) Most trails are not ebike legal.
D) Doing unsanctioned trimming like this guy was doing on USFS trails is generally frowned upon. It's semi stupid I know, but they want volunteers working in structured groups so they don't screw things up. 

Most professional trailbuilders I know use ICE motos on non motorized trails to haul tools, fuel and drag screens, I've got no issue with that, or ebikes doing it either, I just think that their potential in assisting with trail maintenance in this regard is overblown.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't even like the first reason that much. Hills are too steep to ride? Walk 'em! Not every trail is a bike trail, and there's nothing wrong with your feet if you run out of power or traction. 

Hundreds of miles of trails you can't explore this week/month/year? Awesome, you can explore for the rest of your life. 

I mean, if you just want to explore the maximum distance/amount of terrain as fast as possible, a motor is a great way to do it. But after a certain point you're just saying you want to go really fast on 2 wheels, not "explore" in any meaningful sense.

-Walt


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I could see us discussing the potential for limited pedal assist ebike use with the USFS for trail work under our cost share agreement, or for race support under our special use permit.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

damn you guys are painful...so someone likes something different than you, deal with it!! Some say they are fun some say they are not...end of story. Unless you are talking about some specific trail access issue (which has nothing to due with this post) give it up


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Harryman said:


> Any guesses on what would be the precentage of ebikes used for trail maintenance? It's a nice thought and I could see the usefulness in some cases, but the reality is that there will be Moe Ped and like 10 other people using them legitimately in the US for this purpose.
> 
> A) Mainly because not that many people do maintenance.
> B) Most land agents and trail orgs won't let you ride in with full sized tools on a workday due to liability.
> ...


 Over the past 4 seasonal rain and drought years, a very nice trail in my neighborhood was destroyed by unauthorized trail work. All of the berms every few hundred feet to pitch runoff off of the trail made it harder to bicycle so they cut through them all. Over the following winters the trail turned into a stream whenever it rained and washed away. The route is still there, but the trail is eroded waist deep in some places and is barely passable on foot. I can see why the Rangers would want to supervise!


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bmiller71 said:


> damn you guys are painful...so someone likes something different than you, deal with it!! Some say they are fun some say they are not...end of story. Unless you are talking about some specific trail access issue (which has nothing to due with this post) give it up


Nobody said anything about fun. I think they are super fun. So are lots of activities I don't want or need on multiuse trails.

-Walt


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

Walt said:


> I don't even like the first reason that much. Hills are too steep to ride? Walk 'em! Not every trail is a bike trail, and there's nothing wrong with your feet if you run out of power or traction.
> 
> Hundreds of miles of trails you can't explore this week/month/year? Awesome, you can explore for the rest of your life.
> 
> ...


Sure sounds like a get off my lawn post here  so someone doesn't want to walk when they can pedal up a hill, you have a problem with that?

So someone wants to cover more ground? You have a problem with this?

Seems that way. For every comment like these some hiker could read this and say the same about you

and your last comment has nothing to do with the original post


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bmiller71 said:


> Sure sounds like a get off my lawn post here  so someone doesn't want to walk when they can pedal up a hill, you have a problem with that?


What if they don't want to pedal *or* walk? The argument you are making just basically is that anything is ok if the person doesn't feel like doing the activity the hard way. By that standard you should just advocate for motorcycles on multiuse trails, right?

-Walt


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

richj8990 said:


> Tire tracks I'm not sure what state you are in, but in my state of 35 million people, the signs usually say: hikers, bikers, dogs, and horses are allowed, motorized vehicles not allowed, or they say no one is allowed, period. So bikes are basically always allowed if hikers are allowed. E-bikes, that's a different story, I'm not sure.


And?


----------



## snowsurfer11 (May 26, 2007)

Got to laugh at the posters claiming ebike riders are beginners with no skill or fitness. 
I have seen quite a few Levos on trails and everyone was a highly experienced rider, my local shop owner is a MTBing fanatic and he rides one almost exclusively, I talk to all I see riding them and ask their opinions on the Levos, they all swear by them,, one guy said "don't even get me started" on how great these bikes are.. The local shop owner swears by it, lets him climb and do things he has never done before and this guy is as hardcore as anyone. 
A newb isn't going to spend $5500 to $9500 on an ebike. 

The ones posting knocking these bikes are just plain clueless and ignorant.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Out of curiosity, where do you live? I've seen a grand total of 2 - old old fellow (poaching a private trail system), and one completely clueless lady complete with kickstand and reflectors digging a trench in a nordic ski trail.

-Walt


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Sad that people are shitposting about "might as well get a moto instead of ebike", rather than staying on topic. Also sad that a moderator is one of the main belligerents too.

The topic's about the kind of rider who's fit considering an e-bike. Classifying ebike riders as lazy and not hardcore enough is totally missing the point of this thread.

Toxicity levels in this thread are going beyond: level 1 unchecked stupidity, level 2 excessive logical fallacies and poor debate tactics, such as confirmation bias, level 3 making people feel unwelcome to contribute positively to the thread's topic (ex. neg repping), level 4 hijacking the thread, switching to another topic.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

snowsurfer11 said:


> Got to laugh at the posters claiming ebike riders are beginners with no skill or fitness.
> I have seen quite a few Levos on trails and everyone was a highly experienced rider, my local shop owner is a MTBing fanatic and he rides one almost exclusively, I talk to all I see riding them and ask their opinions on the Levos, they all swear by them,, one guy said "don't even get me started" on how great these bikes are.. The local shop owner swears by it, lets him climb and do things he has never done before and this guy is as hardcore as anyone.
> A newb isn't going to spend $5500 to $9500 on an ebike.
> 
> The ones posting knocking these bikes are just plain clueless and ignorant.


No news here. I'm not surprised that the shop owner thinks they are great - he's making a lot of money selling them, and like everyone else I'm sure he has bills to pay and mouths to feed. Plus adding a motor to anything cranks up the fun factor, especially in the short term. And yes it will let you do things you've never done before on a bicycle. A motorcycle or car does that as well.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

zooey said:


> Sad that people are shitposting about "might as well get a moto instead of ebike", rather than staying on topic. Also sad that a moderator is one of the main belligerents too.
> 
> The topic's about the kind of rider who's fit considering an e-bike. Classifying ebike riders as lazy and not hardcore enough is totally missing the point of this thread.
> 
> Toxicity levels in this thread are going beyond: level 1 unchecked stupidity, level 2 excessive logical fallacies and poor debate tactics, such as confirmation bias, level 3 making people feel unwelcome to contribute positively to the thread's topic, level 4 hijacking the thread, switching to another topic.


Well said, every time someone says some reason why they like or ride them it turns into ride a dirt bike and being lazy.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

JACKL said:


> No news here. I'm not surprised that the shop owner thinks they are great - he's making a lot of money selling them, and like everyone else I'm sure he has bills to pay and mouths to feed. Plus adding a motor to anything cranks up the fun factor, especially in the short term. And yes it will let you do things you've never done before on a bicycle. A motorcycle or car does that as well.


And a Mtb let's you go faster than walking so what's your point


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> Sad that people are shitposting about "might as well get a moto instead of ebike", rather than staying on topic. Also sad that a moderator is one of the main belligerents too.
> 
> The topic's about the kind of rider who's fit considering an e-bike. Classifying ebike riders as lazy and not hardcore enough is totally missing the point of this thread.
> 
> Toxicity levels in this thread are going beyond: level 1 unchecked stupidity, level 2 excessive logical fallacies and poor debate tactics, such as confirmation bias, level 3 making people feel unwelcome to contribute positively to the thread's topic (ex. neg repping), level 4 hijacking the thread, switching to another topic.


Yeah but it gets a lot of clicks, the only real reason this forum is here. This site is overwhelmingly anti emotorbike but the owners like click bait apparently.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Any guesses on what would be the precentage of ebikes used for trail maintenance? It's a nice thought and I could see the usefulness in some cases, but the reality is that there will be Moe Ped and like 10 other people using them legitimately in the US for this purpose.
> 
> A) Mainly because not that many people do maintenance.
> B) Most land agents and trail orgs won't let you ride in with full sized tools on a workday due to liability.
> ...


At least 2 of us were talking about doing this on our own land.

I don't think we are the only ones.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Bmiller71 said:


> And a Mtb let's you go faster than walking so what's your point


Hmm..I thought it was obvious, but my point is that the information you were so exited about sharing amounts to nothing surprising, and in general you shouldn't look to people that are making money selling something as a barometer of how wonderful it is. That is not specific to e-bikes, BTW.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

I get the shop owner part and can see that. But it could also be the shop owner just actually likes them. My comment was more directed to motorcycles and cars comment.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

I just saw an article about DT "hybrid" wheels, and thought about this thread. They were made heavier duty with ebikes in mind. That is one reason why I am glad ebikes are here. I'm tired of conservative weight weenie design decisions. I thought it was sad reviewing the "innovation history" of mtb, regarding how 29ers were introduced without anything else proportionally getting sized up, until many years later, and all of the sudden is well respected now with rumors of showing up in WC DH. What's holding back the progression/change?

I know there will be an e-bike in my future. It's just a matter of when. I'll pick one when the tech and innovation is mature enough, but I already sense that it's already a viable way to pay for more speed (which upgraders on this forum do, like weight weenies). I've done 93 hours of riding so far this year for 1100 miles, and I'm wise enough to realize that this much doesn't make me fit in general. It just makes it easier to ride the same kind of stuff I've ridden repeatedly. My enjoyment of it has gradually been reduced to it feeling like I'm grinding this stuff out, so I can go a tiny bit further without running out of water, needing a day or two for recovery, or whatever. It's not rewarding enough, and getting quads that are good at repeatedly extending my legs doesn't help in any other athletic activity besides maybe stair climbing. Cycling fitness is nothing to brag about. Real fitness requires cross-training... no, you're not doing intervals naturally by climbing hills and what not while casually "having fun", and you'd be surprised by how low your heart rate is, if you're not trying to aim for PRs on everything.

I'm sure the saying, don't ever underestimate human stupidity has been heard many times before. The saying "don't ever underestimate human laziness" rings just as true. I'm lazy, perhaps since I believe in working smarter, not harder. I don't want a polluting moto that's clearly illegal. I want to do the things I imagined I could be doing on the bike, without so much of a grind. I'm not going to resort to some questionably modded ebike that attracts outlaw motorheads, which is likely a fire hazard; I want one that was sensibly designed. Having typical mtb parts attached to an ebike is repulsive to me, since I know a majority of the stuff is seriously compromised to keep weight to a minimum--I won't hesitate to run heavily built parts made to do their job well, knowing a motor was assisting, unlike now when parts are judged and categorized based on weight and familiarity of design. I'm sure Walt would sell more steel frames with specific geo and assym/off-set rear ends if people had more of an open mind, and here he is...

TL;DR, is it not a valid reason for a fit rider to simply want to not ride on shitty compromised weight weenie parts, having a modest motor assisting to offset the additional stress and load of more riding with robust parts? How about +1 for reducing the grind of gaining niche fitness, enabling long rides without needing to recovery the day after? 

Also, +1 for hauling more stuff, not only trail maintenance tools, but bikepacking stuff too, maybe other hobby stuff like photography, bouldering, fishing, etc., or simply just more food and water.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

mattyice said:


> As a capable person I would choose a real pedal bike or a dirt bike, to me at my fitness level, an ebike is some kind of aweful thing that makes climbing fun and descending suck, which is opposite MTB to-me anyways.


Interesting POV. How is it possible that a dirt bike weighting ~250 pounds can descend well, but a 50-60lb ebike can't. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question.

I ride MTB's and dirt bikes and am interested in a powerful ebike for riding on my property with my kids. But if they sux, then I'll not waste the time and money.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Probably I'm not a good enough descender to provide relevant data, but I thought the Specialized Levo was very effective; also put "yardbike" into your browser.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Steve71 said:


> Interesting POV. How is it possible that a dirt bike weighting ~250 pounds can descend well, but a 50-60lb ebike can't. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question.
> 
> I ride MTB's and dirt bikes and am interested in a powerful ebike for riding on my property with my kids. But if they sux, then I'll not waste the time and money.


I doubt the ebikes suck downhill, they are just very different since they carry a low center of gravity for the weight and have a different feel than a DH bike.

Honestly I would love to try one back to back with my DH rig at the Bike Park.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Steve71 said:


> Interesting POV. How is it possible that a dirt bike weighting ~250 pounds can descend well, but a 50-60lb ebike can't. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question.
> 
> I ride MTB's and dirt bikes and am interested in a powerful ebike for riding on my property with my kids. But if they sux, then I'll not waste the time and money.


I can answer that question for you. Shitty overpriced MTB parts designed for weight conscious XC/trail riders. Motos have robust proprietary parts designed with the complete system in mind. MTB's still sort of in an stage where people demand standards for modding and are unwilling to give them up, despite heavily favoring certain brands and models. Wait for the stuff made for e-bikes in mind to come out and complete the e-bike system, IMO. Can't wait for the MTB industry to start seeing bikes as a complete system, and not things they can hotrod...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> I can answer that question for you. Shitty overpriced MTB parts designed for weight conscious XC/trail riders. Motos have robust proprietary parts designed with the complete system in mind. MTB's still sort of in an stage where people demand standards for modding and are unwilling to give them up, despite heavily favoring certain brands and models. Wait for the stuff made for e-bikes in mind to come out and complete the e-bike system, IMO. Can't wait for the MTB industry to start seeing bikes as a whole, and not things they can hotrod...


Further distancing themselves from bicycles and much more like motorcycles.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

IMO, what a bicycle offers going down that a moto doesn't is the ability to easily throw the bike around with your body. E-bikes are relatively close in weight to MTBs when compared to motos, so it's not like you couldn't treat an e-bike similar to an MTB going down. It's gonna take more work and manhandling though. Whether that kills the fun or limits speed is going to depend on the rider and the trail.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Further distancing themselves from bicycles and much more like motorcycles.


Yep. But who's to say that mtb won't follow. MTB's already heavily influenced by moto.

I've already voiced my complaints about dirt roadies and how they bring over uncivil behavior from the road side, riding in big groups and not properly following rules/etiquette which help maintain order. Do you really want to be so conservative that you stick to that image? Ebikes are like a moped, but with a cleaner motor to me, distinguishing them from scooters like Vespas and larger motor vehicles. I'd rather see the motors kept small and efficient.

Gearboxes, DH tires, good suspension, durable frame and parts that are also *affordable*. I can only dream that a big respectable company like Shimano making some partnerships and make things happen. I already dumped $4k into my FS, and would be willing to trade that for an eBike that I'm not scared of cracking in a crash.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Now that I think about it, I get it.

A moto has so much power, suspension, tires & weight that it is a very different experience than a DH bike.

What makes mountain bikes so much fun is the light weight and ability to bunny hop & pump etc.

ebikes don't have enough power/suspension/tires to be like a moto, and are too heavy which takes away from their ability to bunny hop/pump etc.

So it ends up being like a heavy mountain bike rather than a light moto.

Which is my biggest fear, given how $$ they are. It'll be the 25,000 watt e-moto that weighs 100-120lb that will be the best of both worlds. That's probably still a decade away.

Luckily I can and do ride the moto and MTB on my land. My kids have OSET trials bikes and I want to build some trails that are more suited for that. My KTM 300 isn't going to be any good for those type of trails and it's impossible to keep up with them on my mountain bike. And when we're all on our mountain bikes, they can't keep up. First world problems!


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

fos'l said:


> Probably I'm not a good enough descender to provide relevant data, but I thought the Specialized Levo was very effective; also put "yardbike" into your browser.


That looks like a very mature product for first run. But for that price you could by a brand new high end moto. Which of course you couldn't really ride in your back yard...


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I doubt the ebikes suck downhill, they are just very different since they carry a low center of gravity for the weight and have a different feel than a DH bike.
> 
> Honestly I would love to try one back to back with my DH rig at the Bike Park.


That would be a fun test. One of the great things about a moto is being able to use the throttle to lift the front wheel. But an e-bike can't do that (or can they?) so it would end up feeling heavy. Pedaling DH isn't a big deal so what do you really gain? I guess acceleration out of corners? Probably really easy to over shoot jumps if the motor wasn't speed limited, like most are.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> Yep. But who's to say that mtb won't follow. MTB's already heavily influenced by moto.
> 
> I've already voiced my complaints about dirt roadies and how they bring over uncivil behavior from the road side, riding in big groups and not properly following rules/etiquette which help maintain order. Do you really want to be so conservative that you stick to that image? Ebikes are like a moped, but with a cleaner motor to me, distinguishing them from scooters like Vespas and larger motor vehicles. I'd rather see the motors kept small and efficient.
> 
> Gearboxes, DH tires, good suspension, durable frame and parts that are also *affordable*. I can only dream that a big respectable company like Shimano making some partnerships and make things happen. I already dumped $4k into my FS, and would be willing to trade that for an eBike that I'm not scared of cracking in a crash.


I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.


Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.

Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. I use most of the latter, therefore I'm not lazy and it's the users of the former that are the problem, being so lazy and causing trouble for others and the environment! I don't want to share the world with them!


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

tiretracks said:


> I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.


The trouble is they ( < 750 watts / pedal assist) are not really suited to moto trails. They are way more MTB than moto.

However, I believe the enviro nazi's will use e-bikes as an excuse to grab more land. So I don't support them on non-motorized trails. Not because I think they will cause problems with erosion or conflict etc. But because it gives ammo to the enemy. Anything that puts our access in jeopardy is BAD!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.
> 
> Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. The former are for the lazy, are not good for the environment, and cause trouble to other users.
> 
> View attachment 1132811


With the wish list trending to be more like motorcycles push back should be expected. I would expect to see outright bannings as you guys up the quotient in the e motor race. And as an FYI, the preponderance of members here are fine with bicycles without motors. The rest of your straw man argument is simple nonsense.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> With the wish list trending to be more like motorcycles push back should be expected. I would expect to see outright bannings as you guys up the quotient in the e motor race. And as an FYI, the preponderance of members here are fine with bicycles without motors. The rest of your straw man argument is simple nonsense.


My wish list is for smart design that isn't overpriced nor foolishly fragile. Cars and motos that have been designed from the ground up result in being about the same since they already were made thinking out of the box, and other industry advances haven't opened up new opportunity to improve greatly on it in a price conscious way. If there were suddenly free energy invented introduced to the world, I bet cars would change drastically in a short matter of time. MTB, on the other hand, still works inside a fairly small box. Ever thought how to better interface the feet to the bike? Are the way pedals are connected to the crankarm ideal? Why not go wider on hub spacing up front? What's with the stubby head tubes on bikes, considering how much force is going through them? Anything still thinking in the box after such a singularity-type event would simply not survive. Adapt or die.

I'm just hoping for anything to break this in-the-box thinking at this point. eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency. Just like any other demand, I'm interested if I see a need, but I just want it to be sensibly designed. If there were something to make flossing easier invented, that was very affordable, I'd be interested in buying into it if it weren't a potential pollution problem. Out of the box thinking might be something like that Waterpik, rather than something that relies on a strand of waxed string.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.
> 
> Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. I use most of the latter, therefore I'm not lazy and it's the users of the former that are the problem, being so lazy and causing trouble for others and the environment! I don't want to share the world with them!
> 
> View attachment 1132811


 I would be willing to share with all the motorized stuff. I like my electric toothbrush. Once you put a MOTOR on a bike, it is not a bicycle anymore. It is something else. Bikes don't have motors. And in MA, no motorized vehicles( for the most part) allowed on multi use trails. Not going to get an ebike anytime. At least not for off road. I'm a reasonably fit rider.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> My wish list is for smart design that isn't overpriced nor foolishly fragile. Cars and motos that have been designed from the ground up result in being about the same since they already were made thinking out of the box, and other industry advances haven't opened up new opportunity to improve greatly on it in a price conscious way. If there were suddenly free energy invented introduced to the world, I bet cars would change drastically in a short matter of time. MTB, on the other hand, still works inside a fairly small box. Ever thought how to better interface the feet to the bike? Are the way pedals are connected to the crankarm ideal? Why not go wider on hub spacing up front? What's with the stubby head tubes on bikes, considering how much force is going through them? Anything still thinking in the box after such a singularity-type event would simply not survive. Adapt or die.
> 
> I'm just hoping for anything to break this in-the-box thinking at this point. eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency. Just like any other demand, I'm interested if I see a need, but I just want it to be sensibly designed. If there were something to make flossing easier invented, that was very affordable, I'd be interested in buying into it if it weren't a potential pollution problem. Out of the box thinking might be something like that Waterpik, rather than something that relies on a strand of waxed string.


 Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor. Thinking like Lance?


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

leeboh said:


> I would be willing to share with all the motorized stuff. I like my electric toothbrush. Once you put a MOTOR on a bike, it is not a bicycle anymore. It is something else. Bikes don't have motors. And in MA, no motorized vehicles( for the most part) allowed on multi use trails. Not going to get an ebike anytime. At least not for off road. I'm a reasonably fit rider.


Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.









Affordable full fairing recumbent ebikes might be in the future thanks to some investments here. Quit shitposting on stuff you're prejudiced against.



leeboh said:


> > eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency.
> 
> 
> Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor. Thinking like Lance?


How did you get that idea? An ebike does not require a rider that has boosted their efficiency through years of riding.

I can twist words too. I know your type pridefully likes to say you're 90+% of the reason why a bike's fast. The bike's fast because of the rider. Well, doesn't that make you a tool? Since you're being used by the bike to go fast? It ain't gonna be as fast under me. On the other hand, an engineered bike, rather than an engineered rider, is the tool when it's doing most of the work, leveraging my input to get a much greater output. I use a hammer to smash something, you use your fist with a padded glove to smash something. If it doesn't smash with your fist, you train up weeks/months to make it happen. So proud, much glory... yea, I'll pass on that culture that you older folks thought up.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.


BREAKING NEWS HERE!!! I would have never guessed since all you do is bash in the ebike forum


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor.


Look at it this way. If, instead of electric motors, you had bikes that had petrol engines that put out the same sort of power as an eBike, would you want those on your trails? eBikes are just low powered motorbikes, which are things that have been around for a while. It's the stealthy power that makes them different.

I was at Glentress trail centre on Saturday and saw eBikes there for the first time. Five of them. One old man on an eBike almost crashed into me when his bike 'ran away' from him, his words. Straight after that he ran up a banking and fell off. He clearly couldn't ride a bike very well at all and couldn't control the eBike very well yet here he was, high up a hill in a trail centre. I'd be very surprised if he made it back down without crashing. Without the eBike there is no way he would've been up there, and he shouldn't have been up there.

A short while after that, while I was puffing up the difficult climb to Spooky Wood, three guys half my age blew past me on eBikes. I was working very hard but the play-station generation were chatting away as they 'climbed' the hill. You lazy.... I would love to be twenty-five again but you? Instead of pushing yourself, developing your strength and fitness, you just want to push a button for your thrills.

Incidentally. I noticed that the steep climbs, the turns especially, were rutted in a way I've not seen before. I've been to Glentress many times and this trail damage on the climbs is new and eBikes are the only thing I can think of that might cause it.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

S71; since you are riding on private land, look at the Stealth Fighter and Hi-power cycles. Also, FYI, a battery-powered MC just won some kind or Red Bull MX drag race against 250 cc ICE bikes. This is for information only since none of it applies to anything but private land and possibly some MC-type areas. Of course, bikes are more expensive now than they should be which isn't surprising for a relatively new product. A friend is looking for a MC chassis to install big front and rear hub motors in for use on his private property.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

fos'l said:


> A friend is looking for a MC chassis to install *big front and rear hub motors* in for use on his private property.


Mid-drive is where it's at, IMO.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> Incidentally. I noticed that the steep climbs, the turns especially, were rutted in a way I've not seen before. I've been to Glentress many times and this trail damage on the climbs is new and eBikes are the only thing I can think of that might cause it.


Damage originating from going in the uphill direction?

It's tough getting the new generation outdoors. A lot of overweight types at work. Only a handful of truly fit looking people (they stand out). A TON of fashionistas. A sadly low number of modest upright healthy-looking people, with some class.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> Look at it this way. If, instead of electric motors, you had bikes that had petrol engines that put out the same sort of power as an eBike, would you want those on your trails? eBikes are just low powered motorbikes, which are things that have been around for a while. It's the stealthy power that makes them different.
> 
> I was at Glentress trail centre on Saturday and saw eBikes there for the first time. Five of them. One old man on an eBike almost crashed into me when his bike 'ran away' from him, his words. Straight after that he ran up a banking and fell off. He clearly couldn't ride a bike very well at all and couldn't control the eBike very well yet here he was, high up a hill in a trail centre. I'd be very surprised if he made it back down without crashing. Without the eBike there is no way he would've been up there, and he shouldn't have been up there.
> 
> ...


You people are ridiculous - Once again a hiker can say someone on a regular bike should not have been somewhere that they got in over their heads. I am sure no one has ever crashed on a MTB on a place that was over their skill level

And the first time you see all of 5 ebikes they must be the reason of trail damage. Lets see - more grip, fatter tires does not mean more trail damage!


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

zooey said:


> Damage originating from going in the uphill direction?


Yes. Grooves cut into the trail. I've never seen that on these climbs before and I don't see how human-powered bikes could do it. You just couldn't put enough power down.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes. Grooves cut into the trail. I've never seen that on these climbs before and I don't see how human-powered bikes could do it. You just couldn't put enough power down.


Unless it's a one way trail, it's most likely from locking up the rear tire when going DH.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Steve71 said:


> Unless it's a one way trail, it's most likely from locking up the rear tire when going DH.


It is a one-way trail. All trails at Glentress are.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Bmiller71 said:


> BREAKING NEWS HERE!!! I would have never guessed since all you do is bash in the ebike forum


Someone needs to do it.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

zooey said:


> Mid-drive is where it's at, IMO.


I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

fos'l said:


> I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.


Never thought about drivetrain wear at 2000+W. I just thought that was ridiculous to begin with, considering the durability of current mtb components. So you're looking for 1000+W hubs front and rear? Well, I see why you want to keep it on his property... that seems like it'd make for a funny "hold my beer" video.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.
> 
> Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun.


Electric bikes and bicycles both have pedals so they must both be the same. Dumb logic is fun?



tiretracks said:


> I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.


While I do agree with your sentiment I think there's room for a mix. I've advocated here since the beginning that officially separating bicycles from e-bikes and evaluating appropriate uses for trails on an individual basis is the most fair for everyone but most of the e-bike junkies here seem to think that's just hate mail.

Shoot, almost forgot to address the op. A fit rider might ride an e-bike because they want to.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

zooey said:


> Never thought about drivetrain wear at 2000+W. I just thought that was ridiculous to begin with, considering the durability of current mtb components. So you're looking for 1000+W hubs front and rear? Well, I see why you want to keep it on his property... that seems like it'd make for a funny "hold my beer" video.


NOT ME, but some individuals are pushing up to 25 kw or so (haven't studied the upper limits, so that's a guess); look at endless sphere for the extremes.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, that's the only reason that I've had so far; it's a fun diversion (FOR ME, maybe not others). However, it's been interesting reading the other viable uses for them. Sadly (not really), my wife likes to suffer and won't ride one, so I slog along (happily) on one of my MTB's with her. Only ride the "e-creature" when alone or with other "cheaters" (not poachers, cheaters).


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

fos'l said:


> I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.


BTW look up "un-sprung weight"; big hub motors are really bad in this regard if the bike/moto has suspension. For extreme power just ride a moto. They do make some really nice electric motorcycles.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes? There's already been half a dozen states that made ebike classifications to deal with them. Anyone trying to say they're something else, moto or bike, is trying to con you. These laws are paving the way, green lighting the manufacturing of legal ebikes that fit the mold. A 250W motor pedelec worry you? It's like being afraid of all spiders and snakes since some are venomous, and crying for their extermination as a species, when the 8000+W monstrosities are spawned.

Wonder what a fit rider on an ebike would behave like. Would you worry that their behavior would be socially acceptable or not? I personally wouldn't be able to tell, though considering all the toxicity, I'd bet on them eventually turning in a jerk, being shaped by how others treat them.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes?


Specialized? Giant? Trek?

I'm not going to delve into specifics but the trend seems to be pushing towards classifying certain type of electric bikes (type 1,2 etc.) as being legally the same thing as a bicycle, and therefore unless otherwise stated are automatically allowed on any trail that a mountain bike is allowed on. I don't claim to be a genius but it seems pretty obvious that the end game is mostly about money, those manufacturers are absolutely chomping at the bit on this one because the market potential is wide open.

Note that I've nothing against electric bikes or people who ride them, I'd ride one and I'm pretty fit. Because fun.

(also note the "on topic" clause^^^)


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JPW, exactly correct based on my conversations with the individuals who lobbied for the laws in CA, UT and NC. Their intent was bike paths and lanes only. If any group is trying to get them on trails (other than individual e-riders), it's the manufacturers.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> JPW, exactly correct based on my conversations with the individuals who lobbied for the laws in CA, UT and NC. Their intent was bike paths and lanes only. If any group is trying to get them on trails (other than individual e-riders), it's the manufacturers.


Agreed, it's all the manufacturers, retailers and the lobbyists they give money to. There isn't any groundswell of citizen ebike riders or ebike advocacy groups behind any of it.



Steve71 said:


> Interesting POV. How is it possible that a dirt bike weighting ~250 pounds can descend well, but a 50-60lb ebike can't. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question.
> 
> I ride MTB's and dirt bikes and am interested in a powerful ebike for riding on my property with my kids. But if they sux, then I'll not waste the time and money.


In my extremely unscientific experience chasing motos down single track, on a downhill, an equally skilled mtb rider can easily out ride a moto because it's shorter wheelbase and lighter weight makes if far more nimble and it can brake waaay later going into turns. On the flats and climbing obviously, the tables get turned. I'd guess that switching back and forth between mtb and ebike you'd feel the difference in weight, but I can't imagine you wouldn't get used to it and change your riding style to accommodate it.



Steve71 said:


> Which is my biggest fear, given how $$ they are. It'll be the 25,000 watt e-moto that weighs 100-120lb that will be the best of both worlds. That's probably still a decade away.


All it takes is money: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=87628&sid=46f6b0731c82ccf37f2cdf397a796d5a



andytiedye said:


> At least 2 of us were talking about doing this on our own land.
> 
> I don't think we are the only ones.


Good for you? Since it's your land you can do anything you'd like.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes? There's already been half a dozen states that made ebike classifications to deal with them. Anyone trying to say they're something else, moto or bike, is trying to con you. These laws are paving the way, green lighting the manufacturing of legal ebikes that fit the mold. A 250W motor pedelec worry you? It's like being afraid of all spiders and snakes since some are venomous, and crying for their extermination as a species, when the 8000+W monstrosities are spawned.
> 
> Wonder what a fit rider on an ebike would behave like. Would you worry that their behavior would be socially acceptable or not? I personally wouldn't be able to tell, though considering all the toxicity, I'd bet on them eventually turning in a jerk, being shaped by how others treat them.


 Its not the 250 pedelec that worry me. 250, 750, 2,000. How to tell by looking? You can't. After market mods and controller fixes are already here. The American need for speed and power, yah that won't happen.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

zooey said:


> Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.
> 
> View attachment 1132815
> 
> ...


 Bikes are human powered. E bikes are something different. Disagreeing with those facts? Ever seen signs, " No Motorized Vehicles" ? Pretty clear. Electric cars, great. E bikes for commuting, awesome. But off subject here. My bike doesn't go anywhere unless I'm pedaling. So 100% of the power. No need for artificial power for me. I use coffee and bacon for speed and distance. It's too far, too steep, too hard, I have kids, not enough time? Yada, yada. Seems like a younger persons sense of whining and entitlement. Some things are meant to be challenging, difficult and human powered only. Do you take a chairlift when you go hiking? Or complain that hiking is too hard, takes too long and you don't have enough time? Being a fit rider, won't see me ever on an e bikes in the woods. Guess its a mater of perspective. I like mt biking under my own power, in the woods. A quiet getaway in nature. And not trying to pedal a really heavy bike. Can you even loft the front tire up and over anything? Would be a non starter here in MA. Logs and ledges everywhere. And last time I checked, this was the e bike forum, not the pro e bike forum. Dude. Older folks. Hmmm. The ones who started the mt bike movement, made the bikes, created' some " of the trails. Forged relationships with the land managers to get and keep mt bike access? The ones who show up for trail meetings, trail work days, meet with stake holders and dig dirt every season. I take pride in that culture. So the younger crowd" assuming you?" just shows up and thinks access and the trails were always here? Hmmm. I realize many of the riding areas/trails were hiking and moto made. Upkeep, bridges, reroutes and drainage don't get done by forest gnomes. Thats me. Your welcome. How many trail days have you done in say the last 2 seasons?


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

zooey said:


> Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.
> 
> View attachment 1132815
> 
> ...


Do you see any difference between these two boats? Would you allow them everywhere together? Do you see any problems with both on the same lake?


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

leeboh said:


> My bike doesn't go anywhere unless I'm pedaling. So 100% of the power.


Your bike never goes downhill? Bikes are "potential energy" powered much of the time.



leeboh said:


> Some things are meant to be challenging, difficult and human powered only.


Bicycles are not one of those things. Until recently, it was largely impractical to do otherwise. Bicycles, throughout most of their history, were devices intended to make things easier, not to be "challenging, difficult and human powered only". You are completely on the wrong side of this argument and you only present it because it suits your point of view. Bicycles thoughout the world are, to this day, a tool to make work easier, not a recreational toy for you to define narrowly.



leeboh said:


> Do you take a chairlift when you go hiking?


Many cyclists do as part of their rides!



leeboh said:


> Being a fit rider, won't see me ever on an e bikes in the woods.


Being an arrogant a-hole about it means I hope to never see you in the woods at all.



leeboh said:


> And last time I checked, this was the e bike forum, not the pro e bike forum. Dude. Older folks. Hmmm. The ones who started the mt bike movement, made the bikes, created' some " of the trails. Forged relationships with the land managers to get and keep mt bike access? The ones who show up for trail meetings, trail work days, meet with stake holders and dig dirt every season. I take pride in that culture.


Those are many different things and I doubt you really understand many of them. I'm certain your don't speak for them.



leeboh said:


> So the younger crowd" assuming you?" just shows up and thinks access and the trails were always here? Hmmm. I realize many of the riding areas/trails were hiking and moto made.


I don't think you do. Most trail systems were made by motor vehicles. You pretend they are due to efforts of heroes and that those heroes are privileged to define how bikes should be used.



leeboh said:


> Upkeep, bridges, reroutes and drainage don't get done by forest gnomes. Thats me. Your welcome. How many trail days have you done in say the last 2 seasons?


You are talking about public land, you are not entitled to say who rides a trail simply because you worked on it. If you don't like it then quit doing it. Good riddance. The community would be better off without such entitled, judgmental, and wrong-minded attitudes. Public lands are for the enjoyment of all, not just you and your "difficult" bikes which you are so good at riding.

It's ironic that these very arguments that were used against mountain bikers not long ago are now used by mountain bikers against their closest relatives.


----------



## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Do you see any difference between these two boats? Would you allow them everywhere together? Do you see any problems with both on the same lake?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those two boats coexist on lakes all over my state. There is no problem with it. There is an expectation that people operate their vehicles responsibly. I find it interesting that the assumption is that e-bike riders cannot while MTB riders always do. My impress is that the opposite is far more true.


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

zooey said:


> Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not.


I get your point, but regardless of whether you get all _*MTBR to agree*_ that the 'motor/non-motor' designation is arbitrary, the *presence of the motor alone will be the single, most effective counter argument used by HIKERS/EQUESTRIANS* in places like Marin (where it has already been used in council meetings.)

Any segregation/designations we make here: fast ebikes (with no cutoffs), slow ebikes (with cutoffs), powerful ebikes (>1000w), non-powerful ebikes (<750w), throttle bikes, pedal assist bikes* . . . no matter how practical they seem to be, will be completely irrelevant when the legal and policy battles are fought out*, because all those things are customizable and none of them are reliably distinguishable by a Ranger on the trail. The motor itself is the only reliable, single, solid, binary identifier which can be used to restrict access for e-bikes but still protect access regular bikes. I see only one of these two outcomes in coming years:

A) Ebikes are segregated from regular bikes based solely on their motor, and regular bikes retain access
B) All bikes and e-bikes lose access

Just watch the videos in this thread, there is an ebike in the background and they jump back and forth between bashing all bikes and decrying ebike access for the disabled. Once non-ADA are riding 1000W throttle assist ebkes around, do you really think stuffy old parks councils and the HOHAs will differentiate between bad ebikes, good ebikes, and regular bikes?


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

craigsj said:


> Those two boats coexist on lakes all over my state. There is no problem with it. There is an expectation that people operate their vehicles responsibly. I find it interesting that the assumption is that e-bike riders cannot while MTB riders always do. My impress is that the opposite is far more true.


Good luck with that argument in council meetings full of HOHAs.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Procter said:


> Good luck with that argument in council meetings full of HOHAs.


You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.

The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

craigsj said:


> You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.
> 
> The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.


You can't argue with stupid people, but you can dare them to do something that tests what they believe in, as long as you set it up for them conveniently.

In this case, bet the stupid people that they can't demonstrate how to ride an ebike in a manner that they find is unacceptable, for whatever reason they have against them, providing the ebike to them and some trail which they don't call their backyard (in case they're some NIMBY). Free food and beer helps encourage them to show up.


----------



## baddest grandpa (Oct 16, 2016)

zooey said:


> You can't argue with stupid people, but you can dare them to do something that tests what they believe in, as long as you set it up for them conveniently.
> 
> In this case, bet the stupid people that they can't demonstrate how to ride an ebike in a manner that they find is unacceptable, for whatever reason they have against them, providing the ebike to them and some trail which they don't call their backyard (in case they're some NIMBY). Free food and beer helps encourage them to show up.


Stop trying to belittle people into accepting the inbred 3rd cousins of mountain bikes.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

craigsj said:


> Your bike never goes downhill? Bikes are "potential energy" powered much of the time.
> 
> Bicycles are not one of those things. Until recently, it was largely impractical to do otherwise. Bicycles, throughout most of their history, were devices intended to make things easier, not to be "challenging, difficult and human powered only". You are completely on the wrong side of this argument and you only present it because it suits your point of view. Bicycles thoughout the world are, to this day, a tool to make work easier, not a recreational toy for you to define narrowly.
> 
> ...


 Where to start. Sure my bike goes downhill, coasting. No power used. Most trails systems were I ride were not made by motors here in New England. Try Game trails and hiking trails, Earliest dirt bikes? 50's or 60's? Or trails made by the the CCC during the works progress administration, some history for you. I have no say about public land, only follow the rules( no motor vehicles) set by the managers. Democracy? Don't like the rules? Vote to change them. Here in MA , not all riding areas are public, many are conservation ares, land trusts and reservations as well as open space as defined by state and town bylaws. No motors allowed. I like working on trails, great riding opportunities. I also hike, birdwatch and walk with the dog. Wrong minded, entitled, judgmental, hmmmm. Seems to be you with a big chip on your shoulder. And which community would this be? One of multi use trail users for all to share following the rules set by the land managers? Or the "community" of e motorcycles thinking that they have full access and rights just because it looks like a bike? Hmmm. Time will tell. Good luck with getting access. And you are in shape? And you ride with a motor because? Back to the OP's question. Way, way back.


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

craigsj said:


> You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.


Let's give the boat analogy serious consideration:

Lakes and most boating waterways allow two dimensional movement and have good sightlines, allowing faster vehicles to avoid slower vehicles. This is much different from twisty singletrack in a wooded area. Another argument against your boating analogy would be that there are many lakes/reservoirs/waterways where no motorized boats are allowed, often because they are smaller, or reserved for non motorized users, or have delicate ecology, etc. That's analogous to e-bikes on multi-use singletrack.

Secondly, humans are extremely averse to ANY collisions of their vehicles for various reasons. For whatever reason, that fear of collision doesn't extend to bikes the same way. When driving your boat, you steer wide of others and behave very cautiously. When riding single track, for whatever reason, something is different and we often take more risk. Ebikes enable more of that risk, due to faster closing speeds for uphill riders and higher sustained speeds on flat. Typical ebike advertisement emphasizes the more risk-taking aspects of ebike riding.



craigsj said:


> The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.


The cycling community needs to police itself on this before someone else does. Most of the opposition here is based on real practical reasons why Ebikes will have an overall negative effect on access and trails/environment/erosion.

I have no objection to ebikes on 4wd roads, OHV trails. Take it to Northstar, ride the lifts if you want, no issues here because that doesn't pose any threat to access or do any worse trail damage than DH bikes already do. If ebikers want to petition their local authorities to allow e-bike only trails I'm totally cool with that too, they are welcome to do that.

But beyond that, can't support it. I'll speak up against it before my bike gets lumped in with yours. If you think that means I'm an 'enemy of ebikes' I'm perfectly fine being called that, the comment is not derision to me.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

baddest grandpa said:


> Stop trying to belittle people into accepting the inbred 3rd cousins of mountain bikes.


These are among the stupid people I am referring to, zooey. You should know they will easily demonstrate something they find "is unacceptable". The failure is assuming that what they find unacceptable is important.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

leeboh said:


> some history for you.


SOME history. Some cherry-picked history.



leeboh said:


> I have no say about public land, only follow the rules( no motor vehicles) set by the managers.


E-bikes are not motor vehicles.



leeboh said:


> Democracy? Don't like the rules? Vote to change them.


We don't have direct elections of rules, generally speaking, nor do we want that.

But, of course, this isn't your strategy at all. Your course is to brag on the superiority of your form of recreation, criticize others', and lobby to ban those inferior forms from having access to your entitlements. Sure, that engages a form of democracy...that we don't want.



leeboh said:


> No motors allowed.


The tired old drum keeps getting beaten. It's a sure sign of a closed mind.

E-bikes are not motor vehicles, they are a new form that is not fully addressed by existing definitions. They are essentially bicycles with some minor differences. Some areas recognize this but others don't. The problem that needs to get fixed is people referring to them as "motor vehicles". People like you. As I've said before, the enemy of e-bikes is cyclists, not hikers. Now that you've got yours, screw everyone else. Just like the equestrian attitude that MTB fought against.



leeboh said:


> Wrong minded, entitled, judgmental, hmmmm. Seems to be you with a big chip on your shoulder.


Yes, I do. It annoys me to no end that people would deny others the same access to public resource that they enjoy. This is precisely what you argue. Trail riders suffered this discrimination not long ago and now they dish it out. You are a hypocrite.



leeboh said:


> One of multi use trail users for all to share following the rules set by the land managers?


As a mountain biker, this would not be your side two decades ago, it only suits you now since in many places the antiquated "rules of land managers" have old language misapplied to a new kind of bicycle. It's an argument of convenience for you, nothing more. Trail riders are well known to violate these very rules when it suits them, there are even terms for it.



leeboh said:


> Or the "community" of e motorcycles thinking that they have full access and rights just because it looks like a bike?


An absurd characterization of an e-bike, most of which ARE bikes that have been converted. Furthermore, once again you stoop to the ridiculous mislabeling of e-bikes as "motorcycles" to encourage prejudice. E-bikes are bicycles, just the kind not "elite" enough for you.



leeboh said:


> Good luck with getting access. And you are in shape? And you ride with a motor because? Back to the OP's question. Way, way back.


I am not trying to "get access", my state defines e-bikes suitably already. I am simply arguing with your narrow-mindedness. I do not own an e-MTB and have never ridden one. I do care that those that do, or might, have the same access to recreation that I do and that if I choose to ride one in the future that I don't have to deal with a mass of stupidity like yours. I ride an e-bike commuter because my commute is very hilly. I think it is fantastic.

I do find it interesting, though., that you assume my agenda.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Procter said:


> Lakes and most boating waterways allow two dimensional movement and have good sightlines, allowing faster vehicles to avoid slower vehicles. This is much different from twisty singletrack in a wooded area.


Then we should ban speed differential since that's the root cause. There is no evidence that e-bikes cause a greater differential than other trail bikes. We should ban fast riders on conventional MTBs to address this. Seriously. Sorry, does that hurt your enjoyment? How does that feel?



Procter said:


> Another argument against your boating analogy...


I don't know who the "your" refers to or why you would choose that word...it's a crappy analogy.



Procter said:


> ...would be that there are many lakes/reservoirs/waterways where no motorized boats are allowed, often because they are smaller, or reserved for non motorized users, or have delicate ecology, etc. That's analogous to e-bikes on multi-use singletrack.


No, it's analogous to banning all bicycles on some trails. You are suggesting that there are trails for which bicycles are suitable and e-bikes are not. What evidence supports that?



Procter said:


> Secondly, humans are extremely averse to ANY collisions of their vehicles for various reasons. For whatever reason, that fear of collision doesn't extend to bikes the same way. When driving your boat, you steer wide of others and behave very cautiously. When riding single track, for whatever reason, something is different and we often take more risk. Ebikes enable more of that risk, due to faster closing speeds for uphill riders and higher sustained speeds on flat. Typical ebike advertisement emphasizes the more risk-taking aspects of ebike riding.


A truly absurd argument. Typical trail riding advertisement emphasizes "the more risk-taking aspects" far more than e-bikes do, what there is of it.



Procter said:


> The cycling community needs to police itself on this before someone else does. Most of the opposition here is based on real practical reasons why Ebikes will have an overall negative effect on access and trails/environment/erosion.


This assumes that e-bikes need policing, that cyclists are entitled to do it, and that there is evidence that e-bikes have the "overall negative effect" you claim. None of these things are defendable, they are simply entitlement and prejudice.



Procter said:


> I have no objection to ebikes on 4wd roads, OHV trails. Take it to Northstar, ride the lifts if you want, no issues here because that doesn't pose any threat to access...


And there it is. This is at the core of cyclist's hate of e-bikes. I want mine and would rather kill you than suffer any risk to my enjoyment at your hand.



Procter said:


> ...or do any worse trail damage than DH bikes already do.


No evidence that e-bikes do more trail damage than any other bike does. No need for the "DH" qualifier.



Procter said:


> If ebikers want to petition their local authorities to allow e-bike only trails I'm totally cool with that too, they are welcome to do that.


Gee, thanks. So generous of you to offer that e-bikes work to exclude themselves from the cycling community. Reminds me of the "marriage equality" argument, we're all free to marry the opposite sex...



Procter said:


> But beyond that, can't support it. I'll speak up against it before my bike gets lumped in with yours. If you think that means I'm an 'enemy of ebikes' I'm perfectly fine being called that, the comment is not derision to me.


Nope, and being called racist wasn't a term of derision to many once upon a time. Doesn't make you right, just shows you are pleased to feel you are in the majority.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> And there it is. This is at the core of cyclist's hate of e-bikes. I want mine and would rather kill you than suffer any risk to my enjoyment at your hand.


craigj, king of multi-quotes and wild exaggerations.

*A fit rider might ride an electric bike because they can't hang with their fitter friends.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

"Would rather kill you"!??! Where on earth did you get that?

As everyone here has pointed out repeatedly, we just want e-bikes considered their own class of vehicle on trails. If DIY monsterbikes become a problem, then the disconnect between normal bikes and e-bikes will already be in place so the blanket ban won't catch anyone else. That simple. 

-Walt


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Another answer to the OP (remember that?): to compete at Sea Otter Classic.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

craigsj said:


> These are among the stupid people I am referring to, zooey. You should know they will easily demonstrate something they find "is unacceptable". The failure is assuming that what they find unacceptable is important.


Why then should "we" find what you find acceptable important?


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

craigsj said:


> Then we should ban speed differential since that's the root cause. There is no evidence that e-bikes cause a greater differential than other trail bikes.


We do, we have speed limits on trails all over. But that doesn't stop hikers from using these arguments to get us banned.

Secondly, if there was a way to truly limit ebikes to wattages and speeds, I'd be more on your side. But its not possible. A 1500w throttle assist bike will be less and less distinguishable from any other ebike soon, and throttles are easily concealed, wattages easily exceed the sticker on the bike, and speed cutoffs are easily removed with dongles.

Even if we could limit trail use to 750w pedalec with speed cutoff: On a typical multi-use trail with a 15mph speed limit the closing speed for an uphill and a downhill rider is 15mph +, say for some moderate slope, 3-6mph for the uphill rider, or about 20 MPH. With an ebike able to 10-15mph up these same hills, that's a closing speed of 20-25mph. *So the speed limit for all bikes would have to be reduced to 10mph to maintain the same level of safety, just so a few can ride with their motors.* *Thanks ebikes!!!!! *

What evidence are you looking for on this? A scientific study from a research institution that shows that ebike riders, who's bikes can cruise on flats faster and climb hills faster, actually use them to go faster? Sheesh.



craigsj said:


> No, it's analogous to banning all bicycles on some trails. You are suggesting that there are trails for which bicycles are suitable and e-bikes are not. What evidence supports that?


We started with a post comparing a speed boat and a sail boat. You said they cohabitate on waterways without issue all the time. I replied that there are many waterways which allow only human-powered, wind-powered watercraft, and swimming, due to their size, and/or ecology - akin to the many trails which allow only bikes and hikers, especially single-track with tight corners and poor sightlines. I would not want powerboats on many of those waterways. I would not want ebikes on these singletrack because once a 250w or 750w bike is allowed, its too easy for someone to bring 1000w or 1500w bike.



craigsj said:


> A truly absurd argument. Typical trail riding advertisement emphasizes "the more risk-taking aspects" far more than e-bikes do, what there is of it.


Agree, let's not make it easier for the skid-kiddie and wannabe moto-x types to jump into the mix as well.



craigsj said:


> This assumes that e-bikes need policing, that cyclists are entitled to do it ...


It is you who wants the new entitlement, not me. You need bikers support to do it - if you can't get avid cyclists to join your cause, how will you get HOHAs and the park council members who listen to them?



craigsj said:


> I want mine and would rather kill you than suffer any risk to my enjoyment at your hand. ...


Kill you? Not sure where that's coming from - If that's related to the suggestion to use 4wd and OHV, there are two points:

1) This probably depends on where you live, in Tahoe National Forest we routinely ride 4wd and OHV roads/trails without any issue. Pretty low density areas though. 
2) It's sort of a hypocritical point: You say there is no evidence that e-bikes cause any speed differential or safety issue, but then when ebikes are put in a position of a hiker: on a trail with bigger vehicles capable of higher speeds, somehow that's me condemning you to death?



craigsj said:


> No evidence that e-bikes do more trail damage than any other bike does. No need for the "DH" qualifier.


In videos like this you can see the extra power enables a lot of more aggressive riding off-trail, places where a trail bike wouldn't be very practical ... this one has lots of roosting and off-trail use. You might say these are all non-conforming bikes - but 1000w or 1500w bikes are indistinguishable from 750w bikes for a typical law enforcement officer, and it will get worse as motors and batteries get more compact. Stickers mean nothing since you can easily by a dongle which modifies your speed or wattage limits. Throttles can be easily hidden.



craigsj said:


> And there it is. This is at the core of cyclist's hate of e-bikes. .. Nope, and being called racist wasn't a term of derision to many once upon a time. Doesn't make you right, just shows you are pleased to feel you are in the majority.


Comparing your cause to the fight against racism and LGBT rights demeans both of those movements. We don't choose our race, and I believe we don't choose our sexual orientation either. You on the other hand are fighting for the privilege to take an expensive toy anywhere you want. Go march on Washington for access rights for your $1500-$3000 bike and see how that looks on CNN.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

As once again we go skidding off the topic and into the poison oak.. 

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To take the boat analogy a step further:
-Navigable waterways and the ocean = paved auto roads.
-Big lakes and reservoirs = OHV/moto/jeep trails/doubletrack.
-Small lakes/rivers/creeks with lots of swimmers, kayakers, SUP people, sunfish, etc = singletrack.

I think that's actually a fairly good analogy, and you can see how high power/high speed stuff doesn't fit in well as the space shrinks and user density increases. 

-Walt


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes exactly.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Walt said:


> "Would rather kill you"!??! Where on earth did you get that?


poetic license, Walt. Not to be taken literally.



Walt said:


> As everyone here has pointed out repeatedly, we just want e-bikes considered their own class of vehicle on trails. If DIY monsterbikes become a problem...


But here is the disconnect. You want e-bikes isolated because of "monster bikes". How does that make sense? Do you ban cars from roads because of dragsters?

You justify a blanket ban on e-bikes because of a specific kind of bike that you speculate will cause a problem. In fact, you proactively work to isolate and ban e-bikes out of this fear. It is wrong-minded and selfish.

There will always be bad actors. There are certainly plenty among trail riders now. The argument that we should ban mountain biking entirely was precisely this one. It was wrong then and wrong now. e-bikes are bikes and the bike community should embrace them. Deal with problematic riders the same way you do now. Step up.


----------



## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

craigsj said:


> There will always be bad actors. There are certainly plenty among trail riders now. The argument that we should ban mountain biking entirely was precisely this one. It was wrong then and wrong now. e-bikes are bikes and the bike community should embrace them. Deal with problematic riders the same way you do now. Step up.


The sad reality is it's easier to ban the tech rather than the bad actors who misuse the tech. That precedence has long been set and I don't see it changing much. And since bikers will be lumped together it will just result in complete revocation of access. So in order to limit the bad actors mtbers favor banning the tech to limit accessibility.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

The last two posts nail it. We can't have high wattage ebikes on singletrack trails. If you disagree, please tell me how. Now that we establish that, how do we enforce it? As was mentioned, it's easy to modify any ebike for high wattage. It takes people to regulate and enforce strict trail access. Strict trail access is allowing one type of ebike but not another. So now our hapless enforcer must be able to identify and understand different wattage ebikes. This means every ebike is subject to random inspection. What a serious pain in the ass. You know what's easier and cheaper? Banning all ebikes. This is why most, if not all, federal and state agencies just ban ebikes up front. No questions asked.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Procter said:


> We do, we have speed limits on trails all over. But that doesn't stop hikers from using these arguments to get us banned.


Then you should have sympathy for the issue. Furthermore, if speed limits exist and are assumed effective, then e-bikes can't create a speed differential different than regular bikes. No reason to isolate them.



Procter said:


> Secondly, if there was a way to truly limit ebikes to wattages and speeds, I'd be more on your side. But its not possible. A 1500w throttle assist bike will be less and less distinguishable from any other ebike soon, and throttles are easily concealed, wattages easily exceed the sticker on the bike, and speed cutoffs are easily removed with dongles.


We don't limit the power or speed potential of motor vehicles, we hold their operators accountable. I do not advocate speed or power limits on e-bikes, so if were possible you wouldn't be on my side.



Procter said:


> Even if we could limit trail use to 750w pedalec with speed cutoff: On a typical multi-use trail with a 15mph speed limit the closing speed for an uphill and a downhill rider is 15mph +, say for some moderate slope, 3-6mph for the uphill rider, or about 20 MPH. With an ebike able to 10-15mph up these same hills, that's a closing speed of 20-25mph. *So the speed limit for all bikes would have to be reduced to 10mph to maintain the same level of safety, just so a few can ride with their motors.* *Thanks ebikes!!!!! *


This is nonsense. All bikes are capable of risky speeds and differentials. E-bikes may be capable of higher speeds during climbs but I think it's bogus to assume it or suggest that it creates a hazard that otherwise wouldn't exist. e-bikes while climbing can lose speed in a hurry and in such situations it's generally the descender creating the issue.



Procter said:


> What evidence are you looking for on this? A scientific study from a research institution that shows that ebike riders, who's bikes can cruise on flats faster and climb hills faster, actually use them to go faster? Sheesh.


weak straw man.



Procter said:


> We started with a post comparing a speed boat and a sail boat. You said they cohabitate on waterways without issue all the time. I replied that there are many waterways which allow only human-powered, wind-powered watercraft, and swimming, due to their size, and/or ecology - akin to the many trails which allow only bikes and hikers, especially single-track with tight corners and poor sightlines. I would not want powerboats on many of those waterways. I would not want ebikes on these singletrack because once a 250w or 750w bike is allowed, its too easy for someone to bring 1000w or 1500w bike.


But equating e-bikes, regardless of power, to speedboats compared to the tiniest sailboats that represent trail bikes is inaccurate and disingenuous. Sure, you can find a waterway that supports a sail boat but not a speed boat, that doesn't mean that there are trails that support MTB but not eMTB. Prove that there is. I also object to your implication that 250-750W might be OK but 1000-1500W wouldn't be. You have this presumption that *at least some* e-bikes must be banned. Ridiculous.

In my state e-bikes are specifically identified as being bicycles to be regulated the same as bicycles. They have two restrictions, (1) that they have a maximum speed without pedaling, and (2) they have a maximum weight. The weight restriction is very reasonable, it easily isolates e-bikes from electric "motorcycle" class vehicles and it caps power and speed effectively because motors and batteries weigh a lot. If you actually look at these "monster e-bikes", you will see that they are quite heavy. I believe a weight restriction for bicycles could be quite effective and limiting the real issues that could occur.



Procter said:


> It is you who wants the new entitlement, not me. You need bikers support to do it - if you can't get avid cyclists to join your cause, how will you get HOHAs and the park council members who listen to them?


Careful. There's a big difference between "entitled to ban others" and "entitled to enjoy the same entitlements as others". Furthermore, I'm not arguing for any new entitlement. The argument is to isolate e-bikes and deny them access to your entitlement. Again, this sounds a lot like the arguments made against recent social progression.

There is no need to "get avid cyclists" to join any cause nor is it "my cause". The problem is "avid cyclists" creating a new cause to deny others access.



Procter said:


> In videos like ...


I'd wager there are more videos documenting trail damage and irresponsible riding of MTBs than of all forms of e-bikes put together. Your description of these damning videos even uses terms that were invented to describe things MTB riders do, after all. Both of the videos you provided are promo videos for a manufacturer, something that is done routinely by MTB manufacturers all the time. It doesn't move the bar.



Procter said:


> Comparing your cause to the fight against racism and LGBT rights demeans both of those movements.


It would had I done that but I didn't. This is self-righteous, dog-whistle BS.

I compared the attitudes of racists and arguments made against marriage equality, I did not compare the cause of e-bikes to the cause of gay or race equality fights. This is yet another disingenuous personal attack.



Procter said:


> You on the other hand are fighting for the privilege to take an expensive toy anywhere you want.


And you are fighting to deny it while claiming the same privilege for yourself.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> The last two posts nail it. We can't have high wattage ebikes on singletrack trails. If you disagree, please tell me how.


I disagree and I don't feel it's my obligation to tell you how. If you are going to make such a claim, you should justify it, not just declare it and push the burden of proof onto others.

The first problem is what constitutes "high wattage" and how you would limit it if that were the right thing to do. There is ample precedence in this area and we don't not limit the power but the behavior. Wattage figures are easily misrepresented, it's the wrong way to think about things.

Second is the assumption that high wattage e-bikes cause a problem. In a society that likes to believe in personal freedoms, there is a burden to PROVE that a problem exists before legislating a solution.



Silentfoe said:


> Now that we establish that, how do we enforce it? As was mentioned, it's easy to modify any ebike for high wattage. It takes people to regulate and enforce strict trail access. Strict trail access is allowing one type of ebike but not another. So now our hapless enforcer must be able to identify and understand different wattage ebikes. This means every ebike is subject to random inspection. What a serious pain in the ass. You know what's easier and cheaper? Banning all ebikes. This is why most, if not all, federal and state agencies just ban ebikes up front. No questions asked.


So the process is:

1. declare there to be a problem without proof.
2. declare a root cause of the problem without proof.
3. declare a simple-minded solution to be the only possible solution.
4. declare that solution impractical to implement.
5. proceed to an outright ban.

I don't argue that these are the steps that frequently occur, just that all of them are wrong and that cyclists, who have suffered from this in the past, should not be cheerleaders in the fight to inflict it on others this time around.

The reason this is a dominant attitude among cyclists is simple, people are motivated by self-interest. Cyclists don't care about other cyclists, they care about getting, and keeping, what they want. That's what this is about, it's not about new dangers posed by low power electric motors on trails, it's about not giving a damn about another cyclist's use of the trails but you having your use of the trails. That e-bike rider pays taxes too.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

craigsj said:


> That e-bike rider pays taxes too.


So do motorcyclists but they are prohibited from non motorized trails so that argument is a non starter.


----------



## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

craigsj said:


> The reason this is a dominant attitude among cyclists is simple, people are motivated by self-interest. Cyclists don't care about other cyclists, they care about getting, and keeping, what they want.


It's not just in cycling. This is human nature - greed. "I'm ok jack so screw you." And if If we feel threatened we attack.

It's wrong. It's the reason the world is going way it is today. We need to overcome this attitude. And until we do there will always be hate towards anything different, anything that threatens the established normality.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Exactly tiretracks. His rebuttal is pointless. High wattage ebikes do cause problems. Look up any you tube video of any high wattage ebike. A line could be drawn in the sand but as I pointed out, it's impossible to enforce. Ergo, no ebikes.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Craig -

If you don't believe in power/wattage restrictions, I would assume you just want MUTs open to anyone to ride/drive anything? I mean, that's where you end up if you go down that road. There are plenty of electric motos that are just as fast (albeit with less range) than ICE ones.

I have basically no problems with 250W/15mph euro-standard e-bikes basically anywhere. They are just going to make climbs easier for lazy or disabled people, not make anyone any faster. Once you throw those limits out the window (or can't enforce them effectively) you have problems. 

-W


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

tiretracks said:


> So do motorcyclists but they are prohibited from non motorized trails so that argument is a non starter.


They are prohibited for actual reasons, not ones trumped up by the cycling community out of fear that they will lose access to trails. Motorcycles also have facilities reserved for them, often where bicycles are excluded. How many e-bike trails exist where bicycles are banned?


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Robopotomus said:


> It's not just in cycling. This is human nature - greed. "I'm ok jack so screw you." And if If we feel threatened we attack.
> 
> It's wrong. It's the reason the world is going way it is today. We need to overcome this attitude. And until we do there will always be hate towards anything different, anything that threatens the established normality.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you. Cyclists need to stop contributing to the problem, they aren't actually protecting their interests in doing so.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

craigsj said:


> How many e-bike trails exist where bicycles are banned?


How many emotorbike trails have emotorbikers built? They don't build themselves you know.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

If you love your e-bike that's great. Why do you want to call it a bicycle? I don't call my bicycle a wheelchair, and I don't ride it on the sidewalk.
E-bikes for the disabled is another topic.
E-bikes for commuting is another topic.
The anti e-bike crowd uses trail closure as a fear. I have experienced trail closure due to bicycle- equestrian conflict so in my opinion it is a real thing.
If you want to use a auto vs dragster and speeding analogy, then use it correctly. I have never heard of a street getting shut down to cars because of speeding. They change the laws and enforce it. Do you think even for a minute that this would happen to singletrack? No, conflict shuts down trails to all cyclists.


----------



## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Walt said:


> Craig -
> 
> If you don't believe in power/wattage restrictions, I would assume you just want MUTs open to anyone to ride/drive anything? I mean, that's where you end up if you go down that road. There are plenty of electric motos that are just as fast (albeit with less range) than ICE ones.
> 
> ...


Again, Walt, I don't think the assumption that there will be problems justifies any of the kinds of actions being advocated. Innovation gets killed when fear legislates out the possibility of it. I also don't believe there will be problems that we don't have already. I am open-minded to that possibility but I want some proof.

No, I don't believe the choice is between power restrictions and no restrictions of any kind (assuming that you mean literally anything goes, of course not). I believe that power restrictions are hard to enforce, officers won't want to, and the limits themselves are impossible to choose. What is done now (worldwide) is stifling development and resulting in crappy products. Not wanting to see e-bike restrictions doesn't mean I want to allow motorcycles on hiking trails.

I believe that the proper approach should be to (1) try to be as inclusive of everyone's interests, (2) promote the public interest while maintaining safety, (3) identify issues that arise as technology improves, and (4) take the least invasive actions needed to address those issues. Government should serve all people, not just some.

I realize that's not specific, but this approach is hard to argue against yet is pretty much entirely opposed to what is happening and what most are advocating here. Instead we have lazy officials and special interests, including cyclists, that encourage the wrong actions.

I agree with you that throttle vs pedal assist alone shouldn't matter and I also believe that throttle plus pedal assist is likely the best setup, but I also recognize that if e-bikes introduce problems due to speed that throttle will correlate strongly. That means I believe that pedal-assist only could be a reasonable compromise. I would not like to see that, though.

I also strongly believe in bicycle weight limits. In Texas there is a 100 pound limit. I'd support making it 60 or even 50 pounds (WITH battery). Most e-bikes, even lower powered ones, are in the 40-50 pound range and the higher powered ones are almost always over 50 once the battery is added. Hell, if its eMTB make the limit 45 pounds.

I say add the battery because many eMTB riders will put the battery in a backpack rather than on the frame. They then claim their bike is only 40ish pounds. Big motors are worthless without big batteries and big batteries weigh plenty.

Anyway, no one should be opposed to people enjoying the outdoors and getting some exercise. Their choice to use assist is not a challenge to your manhood, as some are clearly sensitive to, nor are their actions reflective of yours. Cyclists should resist lawmakers who do the wrong things out of ignorance and/or laziness because if they don't their interests are at risk too.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Yes, they don't ban cars because of dragsters, but dragsters are only allowed on race tracks.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

craigsj said:


> Most certainly just as many as MTB riders had built in a similar stage in their development. These kinds of arguments are insulting.


Emotorbikes have been around for at least a decade, how many many emotorbike trails have been built? The real insult is your blindly stumbling around making straw man arguments while calling opposition "idiocy".


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

A weight limit is a great idea - but how do you enforce that? Again, your solution requires an enforcement aspect that is (as of now) impractical.

-Walt


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Walt said:


> A weight limit is a great idea - but how do you enforce that? Again, your solution requires an enforcement aspect that is (as of now) impractical.
> 
> -Walt


For multi-use single track I suppose I might support something like a 30-pound across the board max limit on all 2-wheel vehicles including e-bikes. Good riddance to the heavy DH rigs and all the associated problems they bring. A 30 pound e-bike will be some combination of no power or no range. Or very expensive if it's using voyage-to-Mars technology.

But kidding aside, the problem with a weight limit is the discrimination hidden within. A 250 watt Walmart sled might not make the 50 pound limit but somebody's $10K 3kw rig might.

"Power to the people". (bicycling for the masses)

On a side note my son just got back from the Sea Otter Classic and reported a huge increase in the representation of e-bikes this year; both at the booths and attendees who brought bikes to get around on. And BTW some very fit riders on them.

Not good news for the sport of Mountain Biking.


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey Craig, so what would fairly constitute proof of these things (say any of the predicted things - ebike danger/higher closing speeds, erosion, whatever) - what would that proof or evidence be, that changed your mind?



craigsj said:


> So the process is:
> 
> 1. declare there to be a problem without proof.
> 2. declare a root cause of the problem without proof.
> ...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

zooey said:


> :lol:
> 
> With the democracy topic popping up, I was reminded of the all the legislation on immigration, travel, and refugees under Trump and how it appears similar to this topic.
> 
> ...


Leave politics out of it.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

craigsj said:


> Any action requires some sort of enforcement or its a paper tiger. Not sure what could possibly be appropriate, effective, and require no enforcement.
> 
> Now, if you would suggest that a power limit could be enforced at the point of sale, so could a weight limit. A weight limit would be far easier to enforce on the trail than a power or speed limit would. Neither would be effective for DIY bikes.
> 
> ...


You've got to get off the weight limit thing. That's an easy non-starter. As far is it being easier to enforce, how? A ranger with a scale? Eyeballing it? Not going to happen. Face it, as long as ebikes include everything from 1 watt to a million watts, they'll just be banned outright because there's no way to effectively enforce a limit.

I work for/with the BLM by the way. I have a bit of insider information on the subject and they won't lift their ban on ebikes anytime soon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> You've got to get off the weight limit thing. That's an easy non-starter. As far is it being easier to enforce, how? A ranger with a scale? Eyeballing it? Not going to happen. Face it, as long as ebikes include everything from 1 watt to a million watts, they'll just be banned outright because there's no way to effectively enforce a limit.
> 
> I work for/with the BLM by the way. I have a bit of insider information on the subject and they won't lift their ban on ebikes anytime soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agreed. The local land managers here take the same view, the only way they see they have a shot at regulating ebike use on non moto singletrack is to not allow any. Unlike the EU where there are strict regulations as to what can be sold and penalties if you go around it, in the US you have guys selling this and riding it on non moto trails to show it off without a care.






The ebike industry is it's own worse enemy imo, if they had copied EU legislation I doubt many people would care about emtbs.


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

*I just might answer some questions, maybe!*

Like most threads of this type, by page 10 they have collected enough insinuation and misinformation to deteriorate into back and forth drivel. That is too bad because the OP had a valid question. 
E-bikes are still way in their infancy and very poorly understood by both manufacturers and the biking community. They need another 8-10 years of development. I stumbled into the e-bike scene because I wanted to get my handicap wife an e-bike so she could manage to ride on something besides dead flat paved with no wind. There was nothing commercially available that was manageable for her to used so I designed and built one for her. I liked hers so much I built an e-fat bike version for myself. 
First of all for those of you whom have never ridden an e-mtb here is a primer what they are and what they are not. 
1.)	Don't believe the marketing hype you see out there. Humans are pathetic at producing usable power. You can mountain bike half a day and not expend the equivalent of 10 cents worth of USA priced electricity. 750 watts is 1 lousy horse power before powertrain losses, hear that, ONE. Do you really think you are going to get motorcycle dirtbike performance out of a 1 hp legal e-mtb? If you think you can I have some beach property for sale in Death Valley. That1 horse power is only a supplement to your pathetic lousy ability to produce propulsive energy, that's it.
2.)	Battery technology is expensive, heavy and inefficient at this time. You can't carry enough battery power to sustain high powered (750 watts and higher) for very long. You encounter the problems of voltage sag and stored power capacity. You won't find high power e-mtbs tearing things up very far from the parking lot and frankly high powered e-bikes are much more fun at some place like a motocross park or party at someone's large expansive back yard. They are heavy, don't turn on a dime and when they run out of battery there is no warning and re-charges take a long time. Cost severely limits the number of high powered e-bikes you will find. They are a party toy. 
3.)	E-bikes are far less flickable than regular mountain bikes. Combine that with their low power, usually better traction and trails designed for lighter more flickable bikes and you have a recipe for slowing down. You better be damned good if you are going into a typical corner and thinking you are going to power-on and slide around it. That is much easier on a light flickable mountain bike downhill with skinny tires.
4.)	E-mtb's from a practical point of view are not much faster. Speed comes at the cost of exponential power increases. That means burning through batteries for not that much gain in speed. Especially uphill. 
So where do e-mtb's shine? 
A bit of warning for those inclined to just go out and buy an e-bike for single track. Most e-mtb's suck due to poor design. E-bike manufacturers do not understand where their products should shine and believe their own marketing hype. Most e-bike manufacturers design products for slobs. Their bikes pedal poorly without power and deliver power even when it should not be necessary. 
For reasonably fit riders, e-bikes are best used to supplement extra power when and where it's needed. Extra power is needed where the rider is giving out without enough power to cope. It is not much fun to be giving out, gasping for air and falling off your bike right in front of another rider going up a steep narrow grade. The trouble is most e-bikes deliver the opposite, they pedal poorly without power and are designed to give more power the harder you pedal instead of great pedaling performance and more power when you drop below cadence. Understand before you buy. I built mine to pedal easy and deliver power where its needed. 
E-bikes allow many riders to do things that are highly beneficial but require more power than said rider can produce. Examples would be keeping up with other faster riders, running fatter tires with much lower tire pressures. Riding in sand and snow. Carrying extra items like water, snacks, clothing changes and repair items. In group rides, load the e-bikes.
E-bikes do wonders for eliminating the quick spikes in power that produce lactic acid, dangerous heart rates and riders giving out before the ride is complete.
An e-bike designed and used in this fashion can deliver the goods for long rides with modest battery sizes. I get 40-70 miles out of my 700 watt hour battery. I bike twice as many miles as I did before the e-bike, I have gained fitness and currently a happy unapologetic e-mtn biker.


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

PierreR said:


> Like most threads of this type, by page 10 they have collected enough insinuation and misinformation to deteriorate into back and forth drivel. That is too bad because the OP had a valid question.
> E-bikes are still way in their infancy and very poorly understood by both manufacturers and the biking community. They need another 8-10 years of development. I stumbled into the e-bike scene because I wanted to get my handicap wife an e-bike so she could manage to ride on something besides dead flat paved with no wind. There was nothing commercially available that was manageable for her to used so I designed and built one for her. I liked hers so much I built an e-fat bike version for myself.
> First of all for those of you whom have never ridden an e-mtb here is a primer what they are and what they are not.
> 1.)Don't believe the marketing hype you see out there. Humans are pathetic at producing usable power. You can mountain bike half a day and not expend the equivalent of 10 cents worth of USA priced electricity. 750 watts is 1 lousy horse power before powertrain losses, hear that, ONE. Do you really think you are going to get motorcycle dirtbike performance out of a 1 hp legal e-mtb? If you think you can I have some beach property for sale in Death Valley. That1 horse power is only a supplement to your pathetic lousy ability to produce propulsive energy, that's it.
> ...


This is a great writeup, but battery and motor technology are both accelerating dramatically as we move to clean cars and other applications. There are a bunch of very promising battery technologies in development with significantly higher energy density.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130...ds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air.amphtml

Here's why this matters now: If ebikes become prolific in their current form, technology will make them much more dangerous very shortly, in 5-10 years time. They will be able to sustain higher speeds for longer periods with less weight penalty. Then everything is in place for blanket bike bans. Slowly, incidents will rise. When recording these incidents, authorities will make no distinction between ebikes of different types, or even ebikes and bikes - they'll all just be bikes at that point.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> They *are* all just bikes


That is your opinion,. Mine is that yes, they are bikes but they are quite different from bicycles, there is both a tangible and philosophical difference between the two that that is clearly obvious to many (most?) people that you fail to acknowledge or grasp.

You keep going on about blanket bans on electric bikes but there is no more a blanket ban on them than there is for cars, motorcycles, mountain bikes or hikers. Each has their own individual restrictions and appropriate venues.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd love to live in a libertarian fantasy world where we can simply hold people accountable for their actions and how they harm others on an individual basis. E-bikes would be great in that world. 

But we don't live there and the easiest way to keep the highly correlated lazy people and jerks from ruining things is to just ban things that make bikes a lot faster and easier for lazy people to operate. Bikes are super slow on climbs. That's a good thing. 

I could get behind a system where you agree to allow your e-bike to be tracked (Strava flyby style?) and you forfeit it if people complain about your behavior. That would allow the individual responsibility aspect to keep things under control. 

-Walt


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Procter said:


> This is a great writeup, but battery and motor technology are both accelerating dramatically as we move to clean cars and other applications. There are a bunch of very promising battery technologies in development with significantly higher energy density.
> 
> Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - Pocket-lint
> 
> Here's why this matters now: If ebikes become prolific in their current form, technology will make them much more dangerous very shortly, in 5-10 years time. They will be able to sustain higher speeds for longer periods with less weight penalty. Then everything is in place for blanket bike bans. Slowly, incidents will rise. When recording these incidents, authorities will make no distinction between ebikes of different types, or even ebikes and bikes - they'll all just be bikes at that point.


 I do not see how any such incidents with hyper powered ebikes could or would be buried in the statistics. Not with all the local people such as yourself to keep them honest and to trumpet any such incident to the high heavens to buttress your argument. I don't think that any sort of event that resulted in any injury or even any property damage could be covered up in todays environment or the one to come as ebikes get more common on trails.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> I could get behind a system where you agree to allow your e-bike to be tracked (Strava flyby style?) and you forfeit it if people complain about your behavior. That would allow the individual responsibility aspect to keep things under control.
> 
> -Walt


 That's a fantasy world all right, but I don't think it's a libertarian one. More like the ones that were so popular in Europe in the 1930's........


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

craigsj said:


> This is not true. Nothing prevents dragster use on the street. Get the proper certs that all cars must meet and it is fine.


So then it would be a car, just like if you took the motor off your motorbike, it would be a bike


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> A track bike and a downhill bike have "tangible and philosophical differences" yet the are both bikes. "That is clearly obvious to many (most?) people" as well. Justify how e-bikes are inherently so much different that they need to be made distinct when these other two aren't.


Justify? Funny that you claim to be so smart yet can't seem to understand the basic concept of human powered vs. motor powered and what the fundamental difference is between them.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

craigsj said:


> Then we should ban suspension, pneumatic tires, the list goes on an on. Who are you to declare what technologies that "makes bikes a lot faster" should be allowed or banned? Bicycles wouldn't exist without a desire to make things faster and easier.


Bikes aren't really much faster on trails than they were 25 years ago. If you make the course gnarly enough (ie DH park) then modern suspension and tires make a big difference on the DH, but that's not the MUT areas we're talking about (and I have no problem with E-bikes on any bike-only trail system). Elsewhere I'd be surprised if a strong rider was even 1mph faster now than they were in the 1980s (yes, I was there).



craigsj said:


> Would you support that system for all bikes? Do you feel it's fair that others get to decide, without due process, your fate? The confiscation of your property? How about implementing this system only for bikes made by WaltWorks? Perhaps some could get behind that.


Yes, I'd be fine with it for all bikes. I didn't say anything about due process, because we're not talking about criminal offenses, in general. My point is simply that if you want to add power/speed to vehicles operated on MUTs, you need to show that you're not going to cause problems by doing so. Tracking bikes could be a way to do that (and to show that e-bikes are totally fine).

The burden of proof is (rightly) on the new/heavier/faster user group here. I don't understand why that's controversial.

Also, not to nitpick, but what does my business have to do with this?

-Walt


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

craigsj said:


> No they aren't. Quite the opposite of "accelerating dramatically", battery technology is the largest impediment to many applications and has been improving only modestly for quite a while. Meanwhile, motor technology is mature, not really improving. What has improved recently is controller technology. But hey, why let facts get in the way of your dog-whistling? It's easier to whip up the emotions when you don't really understand what you are talking about.


I guess all these Teslas, Leafs, and mobile phones were all just waiting to happen on 2005 battery technology. If I only knew back then...


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

This looks like a pretty good reason for wanting an emtb:










https://reviews.mtbr.com/specialized-turbo-levo-emtb-with-trail-tool-twist


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

craigsj said:


> I don't agree but this leads a more interesting question...
> If nothing in the last 25 years has improved speeds in trails (much), then why should we assume that electric assist will rapidly create dangerous situations on trails? Is it additional speed that does it? Are we to believe that the sole determiner of trail speed is available power? This really defies logic. It is largely true on the road but even there it does not cause problems in moderation, and I always thought this was a big reason to prefer MTB over road.
> 
> The industry has really done a poor job over decades if what you say is true.


Anyone who has done trail design or advocacy work (like yours truly) knows that speed differential is the #1 problem for bike access to trails. And everyone who can do basic physics knows that more power=more speed. This is the biggest reason that motorcycles aren't allowed on MUTs - the noise doesn't help, but the bottom line is speed, speed, speed.

I don't understand the industry failure comment. I'm not having more fun riding my bike now than I was decades ago because of lightweight carbon parts, nor would I quit riding if I couldn't have suspension or tubeless tires or whatever. For most riders it's really the trails that matter.

-Walt


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

craigsj said:


> Hey a-hole, provide a single reference where I have made this claim.
> 
> It is a difference that does not justify segregating them. Why can't you "seem to understand" that? Red is fundamentally different from black but that doesn't justify banning red bikes. This is a easy concept to get for people who don't have an aversion to logical arguments.


I disagree, red and black are superficially, not fundamentally different. What they cover can be identical underneath.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

While out riding single track on my 2013 FS Neo Jumper 250Watt rear hub, I was passed by a late forties-early 50 year old on a 29'er and he BLAZED by me, left me in the dust so to speak...speed is determined by skillset, you can have ALL the power in the world and your skills will still be the limiting factor, MOST folks that can afford and do ride ebikes are not IDIOT's and have due respect for others and the trails...ebikes are coming on strong and will eventually be accepted, just like cars over horses...just because someone likes riding a mule on a horse trail doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit, you can also ride a thoroughbred as well, but again depends on skillset...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Double Post...poor connection..


----------



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Procter said:


> This is a great writeup, but battery and motor technology are both accelerating dramatically as we move to clean cars and other applications. There are a bunch of very promising battery technologies in development with significantly higher energy density.
> 
> Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - Pocket-lint
> 
> Here's why this matters now: If ebikes become prolific in their current form, technology will make them much more dangerous very shortly, in 5-10 years time. They will be able to sustain higher speeds for longer periods with less weight penalty. Then everything is in place for blanket bike bans. Slowly, incidents will rise. When recording these incidents, authorities will make no distinction between ebikes of different types, or even ebikes and bikes - they'll all just be bikes at that point.


The whole idea of problems with high powered e-bikes off road is always going to be a small niche problem that is blown way out of proportion to reality. There is enough money and interest in e-bikes to grease a few palms.

Battery technology regardless of what you read has made little progress over the ages. The general perception is that batteries are more powerful and robust than they really are. A battery is pathetic against fossil fuels for energy density by orders of magnitude. Regardless of battery chemistry, there are serious technical problems concerning off road use of batteries. 
You can have a fairly robust battery in terms of the batteries ability to resist shock loads typically encountered in off road situations but the amperage you can draw from the battery over a given period of time goes way down. Also the more energy dense a battery is the more delicate the internal structure is and the more likely it is to damage the battery under normal off road conditions. Battery warranties for off road use are usually non existent or are reflected in a much higher cost of a battery. Now you up the speed which exponentially increase shock loads within a battery over rough terrain and you have the perfect recipe for high power battery self destruction. Any way you cut it, the very fabric of a battery is natures natural way of limiting the number of hard charging fools off road. It doesn't take long at $500 to $1000 a pop for a new battery to slow down even the biggest fools. 
Most high powered e-bike enthusiasts' realize the thrill of a high powered e-bike is on a smooth surface from zero to some fairly low number in the 20-30 mph range. You can get high torque at low horsepower but it still takes horsepower once wind resistance kicks in. If you want to play with high speed for an e-bike think recumbent.
In my opinion the far larger problem will be a large increase in novice under prepared bikers with little idea about etiquette and personal safety venturing into territory that is beyond their ability. You are more likely to encounter a lost scared beat up fool walking an e-bike in walk mode than encounter a hot rod e-biker blowing your doors off.
I am very cognizant of my batteries vulnerabilities off road and as a result, ride slower than I do on my full suspension s-works stumpy.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Virtually the entire argument with eBikes is power and it's nonsensical to sugest that they will not get any lighter or more efficient and powerful than they are today. It hasn't been true of any other form of transport in history, why should eBikes be an exception? My son has just bought a new car that drags 95bhp out of a 1L petrol engine and still gives you well over 70mpg. Could you have bought a car like that ten years ago? Of course eBikes will get faster.

So, if eBikes are ok on MTB trails, why not low-power petrol bikes? What if they develop a hydrogen-cell bike or one powered by some other new technology. Would that be ok? 

Why can't the eBike advocates just admit the clarity of the situation? It's about powered vs non-powered. Human powered vehicles have an inherent limitation to their speed which you can't do much to circumvent. As soon as you add an additional power source, all bets are off.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

IMO, Ebikes are NOT a problem. Mixing them into MUT "could" be a problem. That is why I believe we will see "some" states adopt the 250w PAS bike, viola Levo for example. STOP pedaling and it goes NO WHERE. 

I just recently rode my Levo along with five other Ebikes, most of which were fat Ebikes and had a blast. It was at a ski resort and completely legal. Muddy, enduro type exploration with very little trail maintenance these things soldiered thru and up some gnar that there is no way I could have rode my Niner. Funny thing, every one of us owns multiple bikes, fairly decent to great shape, are very experienced riders, used to race motocross, are blessed with a decent financial living, 40-55yrs old, and all drink post ride beer. There's your demographics..


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

craigsj said:


> poetic license, Walt. Not to be taken literally.
> 
> But here is the disconnect. You want e-bikes isolated because of "monster bikes". How does that make sense? Do you ban cars from roads because of dragsters?
> 
> ...


 E bikes are not bikes. Bikes are human powered. E bikes are something else. Motorized e bikes are usually classified and recognized as something different. Not be confused with how specific DOT/ highway categories of how they are treated. I also know that some places like CA treat pas 250 w ebikes as bikes, in some cases in some areas. I have no need for a motor in any situation off road, they are illegal where I ride. There is no reason that the bicycle community wants to embrace the e motorcycles. Access issues as well as speed differences are big problems. The problem is thinking that they are the same. Bicyclists, land managers, rules makers, hikers and lawmakers all can CLEARLY see a difference. You should as well. 30 or so riders at my club meeting yesterday. All reasonably fit riders. No one needed a motor. After an hour, a group of say 8 took a slightly slower ride pace, all good. No one finished the ride and said" Gee. I wish I had a motor" The mt bike community has embraced trail stewardship and trail access as part of their core values. For the most part, e motorcycles don't fit in with that, at all. MA rider here, lots of access issues everywhere, lots of trail users and crowds. Say TX, CO and some other very rural areas, lots of trails, few people, I'm sure lots less issues. YRMV.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If I turn my Levo off and pedal as an unassisted bike, do you consider it a bike?


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

No because no one knows. It goes back to the enforcement. What's the difference between a 150 watt ebike and a 1000 watt ebike? The layperson can't tell, so it's banned. Running or not, an ebike is still an ebike, ergo, banned.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

What's the difference from a Jackass on singletrack ripping his Enduro bike and the guy quietly flowing on his XC bike? 
A lot of normal bikers are not angels so don't play that card. 1000w bikes are not, and never will be the norm. Hell, riders barely see Ebikes now. If the trail is posted 250w PAS bikes only, don't you think you mtb police will patrol it? I would. If your an experienced rider and you spend a day on a Levo you will see there really is no issue. Your etiquette is not going to change because you're on an ebike. It's no different mindset than the beginner and expert mtbr.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> If I turn my Levo off and pedal as an unassisted bike, do you consider it a bike?


 Argue that in a bike race, one where motors are not allowed. See how far that goes.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Gutch said:


> What's the difference from a Jackass on singletrack ripping his Enduro bike and the guy quietly flowing on his XC bike?
> A lot of normal bikers are not angels so don't play that card. 1000w bikes are not, and never will be the norm. Hell, riders barely see Ebikes now. If the trail is posted 250w PAS bikes only, don't you think you mtb police will patrol it? I would. If your an experienced rider and you spend a day on a Levo you will see there really is no issue. Your etiquette is not going to change because you're on an ebike. It's no different mindset than the beginner and expert mtbr.


I kicked a rider off of Gooseberry Mesa just yesterday. His excuse? "But it doesn't have a turbo button". To which I replied "WTF is a turbo button"? I pointed out the large motor on his bike and sent him packing. However in our conversation he pointed out that the dealership that sold him his moped very carefully explained that because his moped didn't have a "turbo" button he could ride it anywhere he wanted. I explained to him Utah and federal law and educated him a bit. He was pissed and actually intended to return to SLC and return the "bike". I've seen and heard this several times while out riding the trails. The ebike industry is not doing themselves any favors. If you honestly think that ebikes will not continue to get more range, more power and longer battery life, you are delusional and do not understand the free market.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Silentfoe said:


> I kicked a rider off of Gooseberry Mesa just yesterday. His excuse? "But it doesn't have a turbo button". To which I replied "WTF is a turbo button"? I pointed out the large motor on his bike and sent him packing. However in our conversation he pointed out that the dealership that sold him his moped very carefully explained that because his moped didn't have a "turbo" button he could ride it anywhere he wanted. I explained to him Utah and federal law and educated him a bit. He was pissed and actually intended to return to SLC and return the "bike". I've seen and heard this several times while out riding the trails. The ebike industry is not doing themselves any favors. If you honestly think that ebikes will not continue to get more range, more power and longer battery life, you are delusional and do not understand the free market.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I hope they do get more range and become lighter, why not? No different than the modern mtb advancements. 
I'm glad you sent the guy packing, it wasn't right of him to ride there illegally.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Argue that in a bike race, one where motors are not allowed. See how far that goes.


Dude, your safe in MA from the onslaught of viral lazy, fat, inexperienced bicyclists on Emotorbikes! I for one am not, therefore I'll join the madness.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> Virtually the entire argument with eBikes is power and it's nonsensical to sugest that they will not get any lighter or more efficient and powerful than they are today. It hasn't been true of any other form of transport in history, why should eBikes be an exception? My son has just bought a new car that drags 95bhp out of a 1L petrol engine and still gives you well over 70mpg. Could you have bought a car like that ten years ago? Of course eBikes will get faster.
> 
> So, if eBikes are ok on MTB trails, why not low-power petrol bikes? What if they develop a hydrogen-cell bike or one powered by some other new technology. Would that be ok?
> 
> Why can't the eBike advocates just admit the clarity of the situation? It's about powered vs non-powered. Human powered vehicles have an inherent limitation to their speed which you can't do much to circumvent. As soon as you add an additional power source, all bets are off.


For folks like me pushing 60, that have had both knees reworked, and still having issues, my 250watt rear hub Neo Jumper has been a "life" saver ALL my trips have been ECONOMY Mode, that's all I need for assist, no turbo (Boost on the Neo), no sport, just economy for me to enjoy single track...

I read all these negative FOLKS that are supposed to be good folks and treat others fairly, I guess I can't come out to play on "your" trails?...

I would never have gotten out and enjoyed mtbiking at all if not for the 250watt Neo Jumper ebike to allow me to go 10-20 mile trips with my photography gear on board as well...not to mention when I do have to "walk" the bike over obstacles it has a Throttle Mode that actually pulls the bike for me while I am dismounted and walking with bad knees beside it allowing me to "save" my knees for a few more years of enjoyment...

I have rode it on Trails in Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, and NEVER had anyone even challenge me...WHY...because I respect others, still say yes sir and no sir, help others when needed, stop when another rider is having problems and offer help, love other folks, communicate openly with them, and I care about the trails I ride, and REALLY hope they are there for the future generations to ride...

BUT I guess they won't be, due to ebikes, so BAN all the ebikes...glad they didn't ban the Jet Engine when it finally came around, too fast, too large of a carbon footprint, leaving trails in the sky, hundreds of people can die if they crash, so if the Propeller Aircraft Pilots could have banned the Jets with their engines the world would be a much better and safer place...great logic, from even greater minds...???

EVERYONE'S speed is limited by their skillset...ebike or not and FAST ebikes are NOT even close to as fast as a Good Rider on a Mtbike, NOT even close, maybe after 10 miles? Like I stated before I had a Good Rider BLOW by me and leave me in the dust, due to his speed and skill set he left me in a matter of minutes he was out of sight on the trail ahead of me...

I think everyone is over reacting and should an ride a 250watt Brose powered or 250watt hub powered ebike first, then ride with someone riding and ebike second, then make an informed decision...the 250watt Brose Motors are pedal assist only and are becoming the norm, they have my vote for folks like me that are showing their wear, tear, and age...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> That is why I believe we will see "some" states adopt the 250w PAS bike, viola Levo for example. STOP pedaling and it goes NO WHERE.


Which states? CA, TN, UT, AR, and CO, have all adopted the same 3 750w classes for MUTs with AZ soon to follow. I could see some jurisdictions creating their own ordinances such as 250w PAS, but I don't see it being effective since those bikes are going to be a blip in the evolution of ebikes. 80% of the ebikes I see are kitbikes and none of them are legal except on a road, people are going to ride what they want to ride.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

LTZ470 said:


> EVERYONE'S speed is limited by their skill-set...ebike or not and FAST ebikes are NOT even close to as fast as a Good Rider on a Mtbike..


Unfortunately, this is not true. Have you read the thread about Christina Turner being hospitalised by an eBiker? I'm sure you are a responsible and careful eBike user but you can't use that as a blanket argument for eBike safety as not all riders are. The point about eBikes is that they let people go faster than they could without assistance, that's kinda the whole point of the things, and more speed equals greater risk.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Inspection Stickers certifying wattage and PAS...$25 a year and 90% proceeds back to the trails...this at least create one control to start...

And I fully understand what everyone is thinking as far as modded ebikes, but I don't think you are going to see these on single track like everyone is thinking...to be honest it's similar to fast drag Quads, 1500hp twin turbo Jeeps, etc...trees start jumping out in front of you much faster than one's skill set allows...they will not be common place on single track, just not going to happen...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> And I fully understand what everyone is thinking as far as modded ebikes, but I don't think you are going to see these on single track like everyone is thinking...to be honest it's similar to fast drag Quads, 1500hp twin turbo Jeeps, etc...trees start jumping out in front of you much faster than one's skill set allows...they will not be common place on single track, just not going to happen...


Never underestimate what stupid people will do.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Holy crap, there are really still people trying deny that a motor is a motor? 

All the fantasy-land enforcement scenarios and multi-quote semantic diarrhea in the world does nothing to erase that simple and wildly obvious fact. 

And in the real world of trail access, choosing to use a motor comes with a different set rules of rules than choosing not to use a motor. 

Duh...

Seriously...duh...


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> EVERYONE'S speed is limited by their skillset...ebike or not and FAST ebikes are NOT even close to as fast as a Good Rider on a Mtbike, NOT even close, maybe after 10 miles?


Sort of. I'll agree that everyone's speed on a bike is limited by their skillset and their fitness. Put a fast rider on an ebike and they'll go faster, that's really the point for a fast rider. Here's some stats comparing the same rider on the same bike, with a motor, and without.

https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/strava-english/

Same thing with a slow rider, they'll go faster with a motor, yet as you point out, most likely still slower than some can go without a motor.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> Unfortunately, this is not true. Have you read the thread about Christina Turner being hospitalised by an eBiker? I'm sure you are a responsible and careful eBike user but you can't use that as a blanket argument for eBike safety as not all riders are. The point about eBikes is that they let people go faster than they could without assistance, that's kinda the whole point of the things, and more speed equals greater risk.


Google:
Driver going wrong way causes crash
Mountain Bike crashes

Happens everyday...so everyone riding ebikes are going to ride the wrong way on the trails?

To be honest riding wrong way...even on a non-ebike in a blind corner? Yes, they are still going to crash, and yes they will still be approaching each other too fast to stop safely...and yes I have seen folks going wrong way on non ebikes, but kindly instructed them of the correct way...

This is what should determine ebikes are completely too dangerous for the trails and should be outlawed?

Not hardly, communication with signs at the trail head and along the trail should be the standard as they are on most...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> I read all these negative FOLKS that are supposed to be good folks and treat others fairly, I guess I can't come out to play on "your" trails?...


Not "my" trails, they are "our" trails. Also I don't make the rules, nor do you. Lots of trails don't allow my bicycle but I don't begrudge hikers who are allowed on them or consider it unfair in any way.

And not that it seems to matter to anyone (me included) but this thread is supposed to be about why a *fit* person would ride an electric bike. I wouldn't think the goal would be to go slower and cover less ground.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

With all due respect Harry, even a Good Mtb Rider on a 50 lb Ebike will still be limited by skill set...I will put it this way, after 3 yrs of ebiking, they may be slightly faster in the straights but will still be limited in the turns...

To be perfectly honest I don't think they will be any faster, but will be able to ride much further than normal...of course I ride a 250watt in economy mode only...the other modes are useless and could be done away with easily...but the throttle assist mode is truly a BIG saver for me when I am walking the bike through rock gardens and on hills that are above my skill set, BUT that is all it is good for...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> With all due respect Harry, even a Good Mtb Rider on a 50 lb Ebike will still be limited by skill set...I will put it this way, after 3 yrs of ebiking, they may be slightly faster in the straights but will still be limited in the turns...
> 
> To be perfectly honest I don't think they will be any faster, but will be able to ride much further than normal...of course I ride a 250watt in economy mode only...the other modes are useless and could be done away with easily...but the throttle assist mode is truly a BIG saver for me when I am walking the bike through rock gardens and on hills that are above my skill set, BUT that is all it is good for...


Your example of one is a stock unmodded vehicle, correct?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not "my" trails, they are "our" trails. Also I don't make the rules, nor do you. Lots of trails don't allow my bicycle but I don't begrudge hikers who are allowed on them or consider it unfair in any way.
> 
> And not that it seems to matter to anyone (me included) but this thread is supposed to be about why a *fit* person would ride an electric bike. I wouldn't think the goal would be to go slower and cover less ground.


You would just have to ride a 250watt in economy mode to see for yourself, it really isn't about speed, distance to me, joy yes, fun yes, racing against time no, I get to see and photograph some awesome sights, birds, insects, animals, and people while doing 10-20 miles biking...life is good...love it...

Thanks for saying "our" trails...

Have not regretted my ebike in the least, we also like to hike, fish, kayak, UTV riding, Jeeping, and RVing...enjoy them all and hope to leave a place for our children and childrens children to play...


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> With all due respect Harry, even a Good Mtb Rider on a 50 lb Ebike will still be limited by skill set...I will put it this way, after 3 yrs of ebiking, they may be slightly faster in the straights but will still be limited in the turns...
> 
> To be perfectly honest I don't think they will be any faster, but will be able to ride much further than normal...of course I ride a 250watt in economy mode only...the other modes are useless and could be done away with easily...but the throttle assist mode is truly a BIG saver for me when I am walking the bike through rock gardens and on hills that are above my skill set, BUT that is all it is good for...


Nonsense. On an typical XC ride you'll spend something like 75% of your ride time climbing - at something like 1/3-1/2 of the speed you'll go on the DH. For that 75% of the ride (with very rare exceptions) you are going to be limited by power output, not your ability to bunnyhop logs or carve berms or whatever. I'm a pro and even going all out I don't need to brake or do any real bike handling on anything but the tamest/smoothest climbs.

I've ridden a LEVO and I don't even need it in Turbo mode to hit the ~18mph limiter. It would be possible to ride near-DH pace on many climbs for me, and for many other fit riders (the original topic).

Look, nobody cares if grandpa with bad knees wants to get out and enjoy the trails. Nobody thinks he's going to cause any problems. And in fact I've been vocal that anyone with an ADA placard should be allowed to display it on their e-bike and ride it. The issue is the fit folks (and moto folks who want some new trails to ride) who will take advantage of this to just go crazy fast. That's what *I* would do with an e-bike if it were legal/safe to do it. Who doesn't want to catch air going uphill and countersteer through corners? I was a moto guy for years, it's awesome fun. But it doesn't work on crowded MUTs.

-Walt


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Inspection Stickers certifying wattage and PAS...$25 a year and 90% proceeds back to the trails...this at least create one control to start...
> 
> And I fully understand what everyone is thinking as far as modded ebikes, but I don't think you are going to see these on single track like everyone is thinking...to be honest it's similar to fast drag Quads, 1500hp twin turbo Jeeps, etc...trees start jumping out in front of you much faster than one's skill set allows...they will not be common place on single track, just not going to happen...


 Familiar with the American need for speed? Must go fast! Fake stickers and after market controller mods already exist, and are being sold. 750 watts are not enough, 1500 must be better?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Your example of one is a stock unmodded vehicle, correct?


Even my Jeep has a Supercharger on it, BUT it wasn't installed for speed/hp...it was installed for low end torque so I could pull a small RV, I also put 4:56 gears in it to help pull the additional weight...

Am I banned from the dirt roads and jeep trails now?

You need to ride one on single track and tell me for yourself...you would instantly see what I am talking about on Single Track...then I would be more prone to listen to your argument...skill set limits speed period no matter who you are...some of you guys are already taking the single track corners as fast as you can on ANY bike, including and ebike, you just don't realize it probably...but you would if you rode one...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> To be perfectly honest I don't think they will be any faster


Be perfectly honest, can you ride a bicycle just as fast as your e-bike?

Of course they are faster, that is the entire point of them. You could also substitute "easier" for faster but the end result is the same, any given rider is going to travel faster with a motor than without. I'm fairly fit and without a doubt power is a speed limiting factor for me over many portions of trail.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> Thanks for saying "our" trails...


No problem, I think it's important for everyone to remember that.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Familiar with the American need for speed? Must go fast! Fake stickers and after market controller mods already exist, and are being sold. 750 watts are not enough, 1500 must be better?


Yes, dropper seat post, 160mm travel, low friction bearings, huge disc brakes that allow bikers to go faster because they know they can stop, sound familiar?

Let's go back to all unsuspended frames, no shocks, clamp brakes, single speed bikes...and 26" tires and wheels...and then lets do some downhill....


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Even my Jeep has a Supercharger on it, BUT it wasn't installed for speed/hp...it was installed for low end torque so I could pull a small RV, I also put 4:56 gears in it to help pull the additional weight...
> 
> Am I banned from the dirt roads and jeep trails now?
> 
> You need to ride one on single track and tell me for yourself...you would instantly see what I am talking about on Single Track...then I would be more prone to listen to your argument...skill set limits speed period no matter who you are...some of you guys are already taking the single track corners as fast as you can on ANY bike, including and ebike, you just don't realize it probably...but you would if you rode one...


I have ridden an emotorbike, I am very familiar with the technology and for anyone to even suggest that they don't make you faster is laughable and is a complete fabrication.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

No my knees couldn't keep up, I couldn't take my camera gear, and I would only make a few miles more than likely, and have to get off and push in challenging areas more, further inflaming my bad knees...fun factor would die along with my knees...

But yes, in the turns, switchbacks, tight trails, I think I could easily ride as fast as I can on my ebike...almost positive...as long as it's not uphill...250watt hub is THE saver on hills for me...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> I have ridden an emotorbike, I am very familiar with the technology and for anyone to even suggest that they don't make you faster is laughable and is a complete fabrication.


emotorbike? never actually heard of one? what bike did you actually ride (model and wattage motor) and where did you ride it exactly? (which trail and section of trail)


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, dropper seat post, 160mm travel, low friction bearings, huge disc brakes that allow bikers to go faster because they know they can stop, sound familiar?
> 
> Let's go back to all unsuspended frames, no shocks, clamp brakes, single speed bikes...and 26" tires and wheels...and then lets do some downhill....


 My bike don't have a motor. So there's that. The cats already out of the bag. And my Surly 1x1 has 26" tires too.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

LTZ470 said:


> Yes, dropper seat post, 160mm travel, low friction bearings, huge disc brakes that allow bikers to go faster because they know they can stop, sound familiar?
> 
> Let's go back to all unsuspended frames, no shocks, clamp brakes, single speed bikes...and 26" tires and wheels...and then lets do some downhill....


If you weren't riding mountain bikes before this stuff, you know very well that they don't dramatically increase speed. I can ride normal XC trails at pretty much the same speed on a stock Bridgestone MB-1 as on a fully kitted out dually. I ride a rigid singlespeed all the time, and my DH times (on trails safe to ride fast on) are within a few percent of my times on my 29+ dualie with gears and all the bells and whistles - and most of that is just due to spinning out on straight sections.

For really gnarly stuff/jumps/drops, different story. But that kind of terrain is not generally found on MUTs.

I'll leave the silly bearings comment except to say - go read some history of that technology. You may be surprised how good they were 150 years ago, and how little they have actually improved since then.

-Walt


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> You need to ride one on single track and tell me for yourself...you would instantly see what I am talking about on Single Track...then I would be more prone to listen to your argument...skill set limits speed period no matter who you are...some of you guys are already taking the single track corners as fast as you can on ANY bike, including and ebike, you just don't realize it probably...but you would if you rode one...


I'm an unapologetic speed junkie, that's why I like mountain biking. I go for pr's on strava segments pretty regularly and know my abilities and cornering limits pretty well and you're right, I'm at my limit on most of them and a motor wouldn't help. But there are straights and long climbs where (lack of) power is usually the only thing limiting me, and with more power I could use bigger and heavier tires which would allow me to corner even faster, and more suspension so I could ride rough trails faster, etc., etc.

Can you see where I'm coming from?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

LTZ470 said:


> But yes, in the turns, switchbacks, tight trails, I think I could easily ride as fast as I can on my ebike...almost positive...as long as it's not uphill...


Unless you shuttle there's always uphill.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Be perfectly honest, can you ride a bicycle just as fast as your e-bike?
> 
> Of course they are faster, that is the entire point of them. You could also substitute "easier" for faster but the end result is the same, any given rider is going to travel faster with a motor than without. I'm fairly fit and without a doubt power is a speed limiting factor for me over many portions of trail.


After riding trails all over the US, I have seen so MANY riders that leave me in the dust on my ebike...easier and faster is still heavily limited by skill set...similarly a Pro Photgrapher can take a Cell Phone and out shoot a Novice using $10,000 equipment...skills are THE most important factor, this goes for driving, riding, operating, piloting, and love making...lol....


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> emotorbike? never actually heard of one? what bike did you actually ride (model and wattage motor) and where did you ride it exactly? (which trail and section of trail)


Not that it proves anything but it was a Special Ed and if I tell you the trail I then have to kill you. Not going to address the widely spread lie that they don't make you faster?


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

I would have to see it to beleive it, I have seen some awesome riders taking corners like you, and even then my mouth was still open minutes later...and you say an ebike can do it faster? Sorry, but you would have to prove that for real, I say no way Jose...

Sorry, just been riding an ebike too long and they are limited period...I am going to get the new Bulls FS Enduro with Brose 250watt and I'll come back to you with my thoughts though...BUT when I watch you guys take those turns and rip the trails like you do, I suddenly feel the urge to shite myself to be honest, and I love speed and have for years, just sold my 63hp KTM 637 Stroker....

Nothing better than seeing a guy with skills on a mountain bike ripping the trails up, put's a smile on my face...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Not that it proves anything but it was a Special Ed and if I tell you the trail I then have to kill you. Not going to address the widely spread lie that they don't make you faster?


Thought as much...sorry but your stories are laughable and a complete fabrication....

And if you are going to kill me get in line, spent 33 years overseas with armed guards and automatic weapons, 50 calibers and patrol boats surrounding me....on my way back to US from Saudi Arabia as we speak...think twice before you try it, it could be your last thought...


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> I would have to see it to beleive it, I have seen some awesome riders taking corners like you, and even then my mouth was still open minutes later...and you say an ebike can do it faster? Sorry, but you would have to prove that for real, I say no way Jose...
> 
> Sorry, just been riding and ebike too long and they are limited period...I am going to get the new Bulls FS Enduro with Brose 250watt and I'll come back to you with my thoughts though...BUT when I watch you guys take those turns and rip the trails like you do, I suddenly feel the urge to shite myself to be honest, and I love speed and have for years, just sold my 63hp KTM 637 Stroker....
> 
> Nothing better than seeing a guy with skills on a mountain bike ripping the trails up, put's a smile on my face...


 So the reason a fit rider wants to motor an e bike. I WANT to go slower? Hmmm. Test rode a haibike with a 500 W rear hub motor. ( At an accessibility event) 4th level. 10 pedal strokes I was doing 28 mph( max) Mostly a dirt road with curves. Scary fast. And when all the bike stores sell e bikes, they say, so much slower than a mt bike, enjoy. Not buying it. Nope.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

LTZ470 said:


> Thought as much...sorry but your stories are laughable and a complete fabrication....
> 
> And if you are going to kill me get in line, spent 33 years overseas with armed guards and automatic weapons, 50 calibers and patrol boats surrounding me....on my way back to US from Saudi Arabia as we speak...think twice before you try it, it could be your last thought...


Congrats, you just made the ignore list.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm an unapologetic speed junkie, that's why I like mountain biking. I go for pr's on strava segments pretty regularly and know my abilities and cornering limits pretty well and you're right, I'm at my limit on most of them and a motor wouldn't help. But there are straights and long climbs where (lack of) power is usually the only thing limiting me, and with more power I could use bigger and heavier tires which would allow me to corner even faster, and more suspension so I could ride rough trails faster, etc., etc.
> 
> Can you see where I'm coming from?


I would have to see it to beleive it, I have seen some awesome riders taking corners like you, and even then my mouth was still open minutes later...and you say an ebike can do it faster? Sorry, but you would have to prove that for real, I say no way Jose...

Sorry, just been riding an ebike too long and they are limited period...I am going to get the new Bulls FS Enduro with Brose 250watt and I'll come back to you with my thoughts though...BUT when I watch you guys take those turns and rip the trails like you do, I suddenly feel the urge to shite myself to be honest, and I love speed and have for years, just sold my 63hp KTM 637 Stroker....

Nothing better than seeing a guy with skills on a mountain bike ripping the trails up, put's a smile on my face...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Congrats, you just made the ignore list.


Thank you kindly Sir I am honored...


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Read Harryman's link.

Here, I'll post it again. This is a fit riding trying to go fast:
https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/strava-english/

Look, I can ride really fast downhill. I can ride uphill fast too, but "fast" means like 8-10mph at most on any meaningful climb. Sometimes a lot slower. If you give me another 250-750W of power, I can do 15-20mph on those climbs, which means I'm ripping berms/jumping waterbars/etc. That's downhill speed.

Now if you just want to toodle along, that will never be a problem. But for a fit rider who wants to go fast - it will let them go a LOT faster.

-Walt


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> So the reason a fit rider wants to motor an e bike. I WANT to go slower? Hmmm. Test rode a haibike with a 500 W rear hub motor. ( At an accessibility event) 4th level. 10 pedal strokes I was doing 28 mph( max) Mostly a dirt road with curves. Scary fast. And when all the bike stores sell e bikes, they say, so much slower than a mt bike, enjoy. Not buying it. Nope.


You could not even think about doing that on the single track I ride, unless you like bark in your teeth and thorns in your arse, because that is what you would get within minutes of 4th level riding on Single Track...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> Read Harryman's link.
> 
> Here, I'll post it again. This is a fit riding trying to go fast:
> https://www.lift-mtb.com/accueil-faq-english/strava-english/
> ...


Do you actually think that "fit" folks are going to go out in the thousands and buy ebikes to ride uphill 15-20 mph? I really don't see this happening, but maybe I'm delusional?

I just don't see this happening guys, I think MOST folks are going the Brose Route 250watt sleek design for pure enjoyment and not solely for a speed fix...the ones that buy for a speed fix, it won't last very long...

I see the prices on the aggressive ebikes are MUCH cheaper than the Brose fitted ebikes...the ebike companies aren't stupid...they are evaluating the issues and challenges continuously...

Besides that's in France?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> You could not even think about doing that on the single track I ride, unless you like bark in your teeth and thorns in your arse, because that is what you would get within minutes of 4th level riding on Single Track...


 I too ride some really chunk trails, roll downs, log overs, nasty tech rocks gardens etc. All over MA and New England. But there are always some flatter climbs, connecting trails and dirt roads. Hence the faster speeds on those parts. So the reason fitter riders ride ebikes? Is to not go faster? Why then? They want to pedal a heavier bike? Do tell.


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Walt said:


> If you weren't riding mountain bikes before this stuff, you know very well that they don't dramatically increase speed. I can ride normal XC trails at pretty much the same speed on a stock Bridgestone MB-1 as on a fully kitted out dually. I ride a rigid singlespeed all the time, and my DH times (on trails safe to ride fast on) are within a few percent of my times on my 29+ dualie with gears and all the bells and whistles - and most of that is just due to spinning out on straight sections.
> 
> For really gnarly stuff/jumps/drops, different story. But that kind of terrain is not generally found on MUTs.
> 
> ...


Good points Walt...

The bearings are another story, I guess to say rolling resistance...my wife was adamant I buy my daughter a Wal-Mart 24" bike that rolled roughly and and was heavy and sluggish...cheap crap is an understatement...well, I bought my son a REI 24" Novara Bike that weighed 28 lbs and the rolling resistance is NIL, it just rolls and rolls and rolls...so in my feeble mind I assumed the bearings were of much better QAQC, and were setup correctly from the factory...tried adjusting everything on my daughters bike and it's still a no rolling dog...
But as you say I bought bearings for my Freightliner awhile back and they were pretty much the standard bearings I bought many years ago...the grease and oil quality/lubricity (synthetic) is what's really taken a few steps forward...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> I too ride some really chunk trails, roll downs, log overs, nasty tech rocks gardens etc. All over MA and New England. But there are always some flatter climbs, connecting trails and dirt roads. Hence the faster speeds on those parts. So the reason fitter riders ride ebikes? Is to not go faster? Why then? They want to pedal a heavier bike? Do tell.


Miles and more miles, I can ride 22 miles easily and be tired, but pure enjoyment to cover that much ground and see the sights that nature has to offer, it is SUPER great for me as a photog, and I can actually take two cameras with lens on both if desired, I can take food, water, tools, etc and still make it easily even on climbs...all economy mode...

Even add my (small) tripod on at times if I think I might get some late evening shots...


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> I too ride some really chunk trails, roll downs, log overs, nasty tech rocks gardens etc. All over MA and New England. But there are always some flatter climbs, connecting trails and dirt roads. Hence the faster speeds on those parts. So the reason fitter riders ride ebikes? Is to not go faster? Why then? They want to pedal a heavier bike? Do tell.


I would like to add the "log thing" on a 50 lb electric bike with two cameras in the front handle bar bag is not so favorable, don't ask me how I know...


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LTZ470 said:


> You could not even think about doing that on the single track I ride, unless you like bark in your teeth and thorns in your arse, because that is what you would get within minutes of 4th level riding on Single Track...


Oh, don't worry - as e-bikes become more popular, trails in places that allow them will soon enough be dumbed down and sanitized to a level that will allow riders to carry more speed without requiring much in the way of bike-handling skills. Nature of the beast.


----------



## Bmiller71 (Oct 29, 2013)

leeboh said:


> I too ride some really chunk trails, roll downs, log overs, nasty tech rocks gardens etc. All over MA and New England. But there are always some flatter climbs, connecting trails and dirt roads. Hence the faster speeds on those parts. So the reason fitter riders ride ebikes? Is to not go faster? Why then? They want to pedal a heavier bike? Do tell.


Somewhere in the 550+ post there are a lot of reasons provided. They are just buried in all the butt hurt hatred comments that are non related to the question.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

They all boil down to: it's fun to not have to work as hard to get where you want to go, or to go faster getting there. 

I don't disagree. That doesn't mean I think they should generally be allowed on MUTs. Lots of fun things are restricted to appropriate areas.

-Walt


----------



## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Oh, don't worry - as e-bikes become more popular, trails in places that allow them will soon enough be dumbed down and sanitized to a level that will allow riders to carry more speed without requiring much in the way of bike-handling skills. Nature of the beast.


I don't see this happening...revision: I did see ONE EBIKE: a 60+ yr old active man on the DORBA trail on a Specialized with Brose motor he was riding with younger guys and was following them, you can't even HEAR the Brose Motor when it is active...

1) price of a decent ebike, ******** and adrenaline junkies can buy a fast Quad or Four Wheeler for what they can buy an ebike for 
2) I am from Louisiana and I live in Texas and ride everywhere, but have not seen any ebikes on the trails anywhere? Where are these ebike you speak of?
3) Most folks that I know that have started purchasing ebikes have ridden mountain bikes before and are older and just want to get out of the house and get away and into nature again...they have nothing to prove...and have bad knees or leg injuries like me
4) Summer time in the south folks fish, ski, and jet ski again you can get a jet ski for the price of a quality ebike


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Miles and more miles, I can ride 22 miles easily and be tired, but pure enjoyment to cover that much ground and see the sights that nature has to offer, it is SUPER great for me as a photog, and I can actually take two cameras with lens on both if desired, I can take food, water, tools, etc and still make it easily even on climbs...all economy mode...
> 
> Even add my (small) tripod on at times if I think I might get some late evening shots...


 2 cameras? I use a dslr a with a wide to normal zoom. Sometimes. I too carry food, water and tools. More miles? 10 -25 miles for most rides. I like coffee and bacon for the long haul. YRMV. Using hard cases? My concern with all that gear would be crashing. Tripod? Get one of those clamp things with a ball head to fix to the handlebars. Should be steady enough.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

this thread is no longer about why a fit rider would choose to ride an e-bike.

/closed


----------

