# Need some help 93 Trek 830 shifter problem



## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm running the original Altus quick fire shifters that came on the 830, while I was out tonight (just a path, nothing intense) I went to downshift the rear derailleur and the lever just went limp, and wouldn't shift :madmax: . I tried up shift and it will not up shift either. I've looked at the cable it appears to sill be attached at the derailleur and at the shifter. The cable is tight and shows no slack anywhere. 

Does this sound like the shifter broke, or is this more of a cable problem? The last cable change was a few years ago and has very little use as I quit riding for a few years.

Thanks in advance to any suggestions


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

Try spraying some lube in the shifter body, it's probably just gummed up. I use either WD40 or Teflon spray.


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks for the reply I tired that but didn't change anything.

The downshift lever acts like nothing is attached, there is no resistance whats so ever.


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## stan4bikes (May 24, 2006)

It sounds like the cable must have snapped somewhere or the shifter broke internally (they are not the best shifters). If it's not fully enclosed grab hold of the inner cable and move the shifter, does the cable move? Try the same on the derailer end.


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

stan4bikes said:


> It sounds like the cable must have snapped somewhere. If it's not fully enclosed grab hold of the inner cable and move the shifter, does the cable move? Try the same on the derailer end.


The shifter end is enclosed, if pull on the end going into the derailleur it moves a spec not much looks like normal play. If I work my hand up the cable there is a little slack on the part that goes up the triangle part of the tube.

I'm guessing if it's snapped it has to be inside the shifter, is there any diagrams on line how to get one of these apart to check?

Thanks again for the help.


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## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

Honestly, it's not worth the time (or money, if you take it to a shop) to work on. You would be better off buying a cheap thumb shifter or 7 speed MRX Grip Shifter. Altus and Acera shifters have cheap nylon gears in them that wear out, and there's really no way to fix them. Be glad it lasted for 15 years  .

If you're feeling like playing with it, the first thing to try would be taking it off the bike and soaking it in parts cleaner for an hour or two. Or diesel fuel if you don't have anything else. The grease used in old Shimano shifters turns into glue after several years, and this will soften it up. Try shifting it in the cleaner to work it into the gears. If that doesn't do it, the shifter is shot and needs to be replaced.

Or you could just convert it to single speed :thumbsup: .


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

-Anomie- said:


> Honestly, it's not worth the time (or money, if you take it to a shop) to work on. You would be better off buying a cheap thumb shifter or 7 speed MRX Grip Shifter. Altus and Acera shifters have cheap nylon gears in them that wear out, and there's really no way to fix them. Be glad it lasted for 15 years  .
> 
> If you're feeling like playing with it, the first thing to try would be taking it off the bike and soaking it in parts cleaner for an hour or two. Or diesel fuel if you don't have anything else. The grease used in old Shimano shifters turns into glue after several years, and this will soften it up. Try shifting it in the cleaner to work it into the gears. If that doesn't do it, the shifter is shot and needs to be replaced.
> 
> Or you could just convert it to single speed :thumbsup: .


Well the funny thing I been gather parts to convert to 8 speed for some time now, I have some nice 8 speed SRAM Attacks (Shimano Compatible) I'm guessing' I wouldn't be able to get them to work with the 7 speed for now though?

The main thing keeping me at 7 speeds is a cassette, ocne I get some extra money I want to get the cassette and get all rest of this OEM junk off. I'm highly surprised my self at what's held up for 15 years and well over a 1300 miles. The battery died in the computer so I can't recall the total millage. Heh I'm still pushing the stock Araya rims too!

So far I've been able to throw an old but working Xt front derailleur on, replaced the Cantis with New Old stock LX's and replaced the bar with a nice Kore bar (Easton aluminum).

Just sitting around collecting dust are mavic Rims with LX hubs and Xt skewers, Xt rear derailleur, SRAM attack shifters, and Dia Comp levers. Hopefully one day I'll get to test all this nice gear out 

As for going single speed, someone else suggested that to me last year, I just don't think I could do it. Reminds me to much of the beach cruiser I used to push all around town. Going against the wind (or up hill) and not having gears is not something I really ever want to deal with again lol.


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## DSFA (Oct 22, 2007)

The shifter is dead (those should have the "f" left out of shifter), if you take it apart it will never go back together again, saw a Shimano guy at Interbike one year who was going to demo how to repair a rapidfire shifter...um, he couldn't make it work after tearing it apart. :idea:Maybe if you rebuild Swiss watches you can rebuild one.

Anyway, you have your answer...use your Attack shifters, you just won't use the "1" gear (makes you feel tough as in "I never use my granny gear" :lol.:thumbsup:


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

DSFA said:


> The shifter is dead (those should have the "f" left out of shifter), if you take it apart it will never go back together again, saw a Shimano guy at Interbike one year who was going to demo how to repair a rapidfire shifter...um, he couldn't make it work after tearing it apart. :idea:Maybe if you rebuild Swiss watches you can rebuild one.
> 
> Anyway, you have your answer...use your Attack shifters, you just won't use the "1" gear (makes you feel tough as in "I never use my granny gear" :lol.:thumbsup:


Thanks looks like what I'll have to do then, when I called the LBS here a few months ago for various labor charges I was quoted $26 a side to replace the shifters. Is it that much work to do it your self? I'm sure it will require some kind of special tools I don't have :madman:



DSFA said:


> :idea:Maybe if you rebuild Swiss watches you can rebuild one.


Heh I almost broke my watch just trying to change the battery, don't think I'll attempt to take the quickfire apart then


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## DSFA (Oct 22, 2007)

That seems pretty steep to swap shifters out.
It's a reasonably simple job. I'll post directions in a few minutes, have to print some stuff out for my wifey.


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

DSFA said:


> That seems pretty steep to swap shifters out.
> It's a reasonably simple job. I'll post directions in a few minutes, have to print some stuff out for my wifey.


Thanks allot, yea the LBA here has some pretty steep quotes.

He wanted almost 160 dollars to change the shifters, put a cassette on my new rim (when I get one) and install the rear derailleur. I didn't know whether to laugh hysterically or cry when he quoted that price lol.


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## DSFA (Oct 22, 2007)

Ok...First off, don't mess with the limit screws on the derailleurs!!! They are the little phillips heads with a H and L by them. Unless you have problems with the chain overshifting and coming off the cogset or cranks LEAVE THEM ALONE! If you have problem with that PM me.Sorry that's more instruction than I have time for at the moment.

Next if you have a workstand put the bike in it otherwise hang it somehow, doing this is not a "flip over on the bars" job.

OK, Step 1. Shift bike into low gear on the front and high gear in the rear (Smallest sprockets F&R)
2. Remove your grips
3. loosen (you don't need to remove them) the nut holding the wire at the derailleur on both F&R.
4. remove old shifters along with the cables from the bars, yours might be attached to the brake levers, if so there's a 4mm allen bolt you remove and the shifter will come off.
5. Inspect the housing if you're reusing it. If there are kinks get new stuff. If the inner housing wire is pulling into the cable end you can trim it up with _good_ cable cutters or a dremel.
6. Put new shifters on the bars, adjust shifters and brake levers to maximum comfiness level and tighten down.
7. Run the new shift cables to the derailleurs.
8. Ok, this is the start of the tricky part , adjust all the barrel adjusters to the middle of their range.
9. Now feed the cable thru the lock nut on the der. 
10. While pulling on the cable and making sure not to move the der., snug the locknuts up.
11. Leave about 2-3" of cable past the locknut and trim the cables. Put on the lil wire end crimps to keep the cable from fraying.
12. Alright, adjustment time! Here's the Classified Top Ancient Chinese secret easiest thing to remember- Turn the adjuster in the way you want the chain to move. 
If it's slow shifting to bigger gears, increase tension by "unscrewing" the adjuster(s). If the chain doesn't want to drop to smaller gears reduce cable tension.
12-1/2. Adjust the front shifting first then do the rear. Note that if you got the tension too loose to start with ,i.e. you run out of adjustment, put the adjusters back to center and repull the cables.
13. On the rear, start with the chain in high, adjust the cable tension tight enough to make it shift to the next gear then back it off until it jumps back to the high gear and then usually about a turn and half more will get it centered on the high gear. use your ears and listen for when it gets quiet because everything is lined up. After that shift up a gear and see if it's shifting clean. Once it's shifting nice, run it thru the gears and you ought to be set.
14. Ride and then ride some more.

Hope that helps you're welcome to pm for any other ???


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

DSFA said:


> Ok...First off, don't mess with the limit screws on the derailleurs!!! They are the little phillips heads with a H and L by them. Unless you have problems with the chain overshifting and coming off the cogset or cranks LEAVE THEM ALONE! If you have problem with that PM me.Sorry that's more instruction than I have time for at the moment.
> 
> Next if you have a workstand put the bike in it otherwise hang it somehow, doing this is not a "flip over on the bars" job.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that information, I'll have a look at the bike tomorrow, I think the biggest problem will be removing the old cable. The brake levers and shifters are all one big unit. Secondly not to sure how I can hang the bike, but when I changed out the front derailleur, I just sat on the ground to do it lol. It's still not adjusted quit right but at least it works. I can build computers but when it comes to bike work I'm all thumbs 

Thanks again for the information.


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## backpedal (May 22, 2004)

*Probably repairable*

Numb
You can probably remove the cover from the shifter and get a look at what is going on inside there. When you move the thumb lever, it turns a wheel with teeth. The teeth are supposed to engage with a small metal pawl, but when the old grease inside these things harden with age and low temps, the pawl just sits there, partway open, and fails to engage.

Don't soak it in a solvent. The lube you sprayed in there may soak in given enough time, and maybe gravity and marksmanship, but you could speed it along. If the bottom cover doesn't give you access to the frozen pawl, you may have to remove the shifter from its mount to further dissect it.

Give this a try before you replace it. I have had a lot of luck with these in the past, frequently after other shop mechanics have condemned it.


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

backpedal said:


> Numb
> You can probably remove the cover from the shifter and get a look at what is going on inside there. When you move the thumb lever, it turns a wheel with teeth. The teeth are supposed to engage with a small metal pawl, but when the old grease inside these things harden with age and low temps, the pawl just sits there, partway open, and fails to engage.
> 
> Don't soak it in a solvent. The lube you sprayed in there may soak in given enough time, and maybe gravity and marksmanship, but you could speed it along. If the bottom cover doesn't give you access to the frozen pawl, you may have to remove the shifter from its mount to further dissect it.
> ...


Thanks for that information, I'll disassemble the cover tomorrow, I guess I can't make it any worse then it already is  Also it was pretty cool this evening when I went out (40's) not sure if that contributed to it's death or just a coincidence.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

backpedal said:


> Give this a try before you replace it. I have had a lot of luck with these in the past, frequently after other shop mechanics have condemned it.


What he said. 80+% of the time, I get them up and running again. Most often, it's a function of working the lever, repeatedly, and with vigor, to work the lube in where it needs to be. $26, a side? Are they on crack? Did they at least offer you the jar of Vaseline first?  :eekster:


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Bikes with this problem come in all the time. I can understand most bike shops saying that it is not worth it to fix the shifter since it is a fairly time consuming project and cheap $10 thumb shifters are available. 

Yes, the problem is the grease turns to shellac over time. The problem is the pawl in the shifter mechanism won't spring back into the ratchet. The way I fix this problem is to either"

Spin the shifter upside down or remove the shifter pod from the brake.
Remove the plastic cover (usually held in place with a couple of tiny screws - don't lose these!
Drip tri-flow into all moving parts of the shifter.
Using a machinists pick or small screw driver, isolate the stuck pawl and then simply work it back and forth until it is moving freely. 
Work the shifter levers back and forth to confirm it is free, drip a couple more drops of tri-flow onto the moving parts / pivots and reassemble. 

Technically, it may be cheaper to replace the shifters with a cheap thumbie, but personally, I prefer to make an existing item work rather than replace it. I usually charge about $20 to fix shifters like this or tack on an extra $10 to their tune-up price. 

And, this is not isolated to just low-end Shimano shifters. I've had the same problem with XT and XTR shifters.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Technically, it may be cheaper to replace the shifters with a cheap thumbie, but personally, I prefer to make an existing item work rather than replace it. I tack on an extra $10 to their tune-up price. And, this is not isolated to just low-end Shimano shifters. I've had the same problem with XT and XTR shifters.


Agreed 100% :thumbsup: 
Philosophical argument time....

If the point of a tune up, is to take a bike, and make it run better, and function smoother thn when it came in, why charge extra? I have some tunes that are so clean and good, I barely do a dust off, and lube. Others are a mess, and take an hour to clean all the crap off, so I can find the bike inside I charge the same either case. The customer feels like they got a chunk of my time, and paid for the ability to ride away, confident their bike is safe, and functional. Some I take a loss on, others I make out big time. I'd feel weird charging extra for certain things, but maybe that's just me....Not saying it's wrong, just opening up the discussion, no hijack intended


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## surly357 (Jan 19, 2006)

*drivetrain forum....*

.....isn't that the place for discussing the minutiae of cheap shifter repair & modifying a crappy non-vrc bike to be a semi crappy non- vrc bike? i deal with that junk all day, i come to this forum for the stuff i actually like! :madman:


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

surly357 said:


> .....isn't that the place for discussing the minutiae of cheap shifter repair & modifying a crappy non-vrc bike to be a semi crappy non- vrc bike? i deal with that junk all day, i come to this forum for the stuff i actually like! :madman:


Me too...but I also like working on those old shifters and making them feel like new.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Agreed 100% :thumbsup:
> Philosophical argument time....
> 
> If the point of a tune up, is to take a bike, and make it run better, and function smoother thn when it came in, why charge extra? I have some tunes that are so clean and good, I barely do a dust off, and lube. Others are a mess, and take an hour to clean all the crap off, so I can find the bike inside I charge the same either case. The customer feels like they got a chunk of my time, and paid for the ability to ride away, confident their bike is safe, and functional. Some I take a loss on, others I make out big time. I'd feel weird charging extra for certain things, but maybe that's just me....Not saying it's wrong, just opening up the discussion, no hijack intended


The extra I may charge usually also offsets the extra I put in to cleaning the bike to make it easier to work on. I do a lot of bike washes on simple tune-ups. Never had someone say I charged too much. Usually it's I didn't charge enough. I also feel weird charging extra for some things, but I don't see a shifter overhaul as part of a "tune-up" just like a bottom bracket overhaul isn't either. Cest la vie. It all works out in the end. There are shops, however, who charge extra for every little tiny extra step. I'm not one. :thumbsup:


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

surly357 said:


> .....isn't that the place for discussing the minutiae of cheap shifter repair & modifying a crappy non-vrc bike to be a semi crappy non- vrc bike? i deal with that junk all day, i come to this forum for the stuff i actually like! :madman:


Your screen name does little to belie your attitude. Relax, so he didn't know the secret handshake. Don't like a post, don't read it.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

ssmike said:


> I also feel weird charging extra for some things, but I don't see a shifter overhaul as part of a "tune-up" just like a bottom bracket overhaul isn't either.


Indeed, suppose if I took it all apart, it'd be different, but I just blast 'em, and work 'em. Seems to work often enough, and well enough Glad I'm not the only shop out there who's customers think I charge to little, keeps them coming back though, as opposed to bad mouthing me on a ride with their pals....


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

surly357 said:


> .....isn't that the place for discussing the minutiae of cheap shifter repair & modifying a crappy non-vrc bike to be a semi crappy non- vrc bike? i deal with that junk all day, i come to this forum for the stuff i actually like! :madman:


Sorry didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, as my post count shows I'm a newbie here. I posted this originally in the Shimano thread area and after 5 hours of no hits, I decided since it was indeed a retro bike I would take a swing by here and delete my other thread.

*Also thanks to those that have offered help * I appreciate it and will update this once I get working on it.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

ssmike said:


> The extra I may charge usually also offsets the extra I put in to cleaning the bike to make it easier to work on. I do a lot of bike washes on simple tune-ups. Never had someone say I charged too much. Usually it's I didn't charge enough. I also feel weird charging extra for some things, but I don't see a shifter overhaul as part of a "tune-up" just like a bottom bracket overhaul isn't either. Cest la vie. It all works out in the end. There are shops, however, who charge extra for every little tiny extra step. I'm not one. :thumbsup:


re: not part of a tune

if it takes me more than 10 minutes to fix something thats not part of a tune up, i start thinking about charging(pro rate)


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## DSFA (Oct 22, 2007)

comfortablynumb said:


> Sorry didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, as my post count shows I'm a newbie here. I posted this originally in the Shimano thread area and after 5 hours of no hits, I decided since it was indeed a retro bike I would take a swing by here and delete my other thread.
> 
> *Also thanks to those that have offered help * I appreciate it and will update this once I get working on it.


Hey C_N, there are quite a few folks with some attitude around here. Seems there's a couple that think since they have 12,000 posts they know everything Lord, I don't think I've posted that much on all the forums I do combined.
As far as your shifters, yep, these latest fellows are giving you good advice about trying to fix them. Use Triflow not diesel fuel. However, if I was in your spot and had new shifters that will actually work, I'd put them on and not deal with the finicky ones. Because I've tweaked Rapidfires before and got them working but they usually die off again (then again you may luck out and have them go another 15yrs, kind of a crapshoot with some of those).
Anyway that's my two cents and as mentioned your welcome to pm with ? and I'll see if I can help.
Peace:thumbsup:


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

DSFA said:


> Hey C_N, there are quite a few folks with some attitude around here. Seems there's a couple that think since they have 12,000 posts they know everything Lord, I don't think I've posted that much on all the forums I do combined.
> As far as your shifters, yep, these latest fellows are giving you good advice about trying to fix them. Use Triflow not diesel fuel. However, if I was in your spot and had new shifters that will actually work, I'd put them on and not deal with the finicky ones. Because I've tweaked Rapidfires before and got them working but they usually die off again (then again you may luck out and have them go another 15yrs, kind of a crapshoot with some of those).
> Anyway that's my two cents and as mentioned your welcome to pm with ? and I'll see if I can help.
> Peace:thumbsup:


Thanks DSFA, if I run into trouble I'll PM ya


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## comfortablynumb (Jun 29, 2007)

Alright I took a look at it, even before disassembling it, I noticed the housing has piece cracked in it. The plastic piece that goes between the upshift and down shift. I took the housing apart and there is no dried grease and nothing hanging up from what I can tell. It looks like the shifter is just shot, I can apply some upward pressure on downshift and get to catch sometimes, but usually as soon as it catches it just slips so there has to be a tooth broke somewhere in there.

If I go ahead and replace them, I'm going to have the hassle of also having to replace the brake levers as well. I know I can take the pod off but I just don't have enough real estate on my bar to keep that huge lever the new SRAM grip shifts plus my bar ends. I have some spare levers (dia comp) that I can throw on there to replace these levers.


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