# Marin kids bikes 2021, what the heck



## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Someone asked about these in the Two Wheeling Tots group, and honestly what the heck. What are they trying here? The forks are a size too big and you can see what that does to the stack. It also looks like they raised the seat angle without changing the reach.

The blue one is a 20" with a 24" x 80mm fork, the red is a 24" with a 26" x 100mm fork


----------



## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

There's a discussion in the general forum about adult bike geometry going to a more upright and cramped position like this.

I'm not sure if it's the case but it wouldn't surprise me if feedback from less experienced but purchasing riders are pushing manufacturers to build comfort over function. And just anecdotal but just in the past 4 or 5 years, I've seen what I would describe as a sort of wealth influx into the sport. I've seen more brand new riders on $5000 - $7000 bikes than I would have ever thought possible and it sure doesn't seem like it was always this way.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Other than the steeper seat angle and shorter chainstays, the 20" really doesn't look all that much different than my son's Cujo with a 120mm Junit fork added on.

I see it as less comfort vs. function and more as a trend towards decreasing the geometry differences between sitting and standing.


----------



## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

TimTucker said:


> Other than the steeper seat angle and shorter chainstays, the 20" really doesn't look all that much different than my son's Cujo with a 120mm Junit fork added on.
> 
> I see it as less comfort vs. function and more as a trend towards decreasing the geometry differences between sitting and standing.


Maybe. It's not just that the front is lifted up by the fork. This really is a different frame than the usual 20in kid bikes. Here it is compared to a Norco Fluid with same size tires. You can see that the seat post tilted up a lot. And check out what it did to the front center and standover.

I'm not thinking this is a mistake but someone over there has a specific idea they want to try and they don't have the parts they want to make it happen. They also have a 24in full suspension bike that has 26er sized components but I don't see enough gap in front of the rear tite for these frames to work like that. https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/family/20-hawk-hill-jr-kids


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

The 145mm Junit fork would probably make it happen much more effectively, but not at the pricepoint that they're trying to reach.

Here's a comparison of what we're looking at with putting it on a Cujo:








End result would be a similar stack, but shorter reach and lower bottom bracket height.

A layback pivotal seatpost like this installed backwards will result in a similar saddle position too:
https://cultcrew.com/products/counter-layback-post


----------



## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

I don't understand the industry for going this direction. I know I can't ride my 29er trail bike with upright geo as far/long as my 2005 hardtail. It sure is fun for shorter rides, but if I want to ride 3-4 hours I grab my older bike/older geo every time. Seems like these bikes are designed for going down with quick climbs back up. Not sure this would be a good thing for kids bikes.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

GSJ1973 said:


> I don't understand the industry for going this direction. I know I can't ride my 29er trail bike with upright geo as far/long as my 2005 hardtail. It sure is fun for shorter rides, but if I want to ride 3-4 hours I grab my older bike/older geo every time. Seems like these bikes are designed for going down with quick climbs back up. Not sure this would be a good thing for kids bikes.


The average kid / bike shop customer isn't doing 3-4 hour rides, though.

Even among people who use Strava to track rides (with results presumably skewed towards roadies & more serious cyclists), the average ride duration is only ~1.5 hours:
https://www.bicycling.com/news/g25350331/strava-annual-report-cycling-statistics/

Why would manufacturers keep the geometry for trail bikes optimized for riding distances that most of their customers aren't riding when they can repackage the old geometry, toss on some drop bars, & sell a second bike to someone as a "gravel bike"?

If a kid is going to have only 1 bike and you want to ensure that they keep riding, it's probably better to have it optimized for having fun over riding longer distances.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

They haven't provided geometry numbers yet from what I have seen, so I will reserve judgement. As Tim pointed out, when compared to the top tier JUnit forks from Manitour, the A2C length (at least on the 24" bike) isn't much different from a 26" fork.

A 26", 100mm Rockshox has an A2C around *473*mm (models vary). The 24" JUnit at 120mm is *475*mm. A 26" Manitou Markhor at 100mm of travel is even shorter at *476*mm A2C. The variation might be a little more noticeable on the 20" models. I am not sure of the A2C of the Suntour 24" XCM, but the 63mm travel XCR is *415*mm. The 20" JUnit at 100mm of travel is *410*mm A2C and at 120mm is *430*mm.

My larger concern on the forks is the tuning for lighter riders. Let's face it, the 20" XCM is throw away junk. The 24" Judy is at least an air fork, but it will be heavy and likely isn't tuned for lighter riders.

I do still understand the concern on overall geometry. It will be interesting to see what the actual numbers are when they are published. I know we can't cherry pick individual numbers without looking at the whole, but below are some of the ranges I have documented from my own research...

20" MTBs
Reach:306-335
Stack: 392-425
ETT: 425 - 487

24" MTBs
Reach:319-360
Stack: 480-506
ETT: 496 - 521

A couple places where Marin does deserve props (especially on the 24" model) is the drivetrain and front hub and headset spec. You get sufficient gear range and the bike is immediately ready for an upgrade to a really good for like the JUnit without having to swap any other parts. Of course, at nearly $1k, this should be the case.


----------



## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

rton20s said:


> My larger concern on the forks is the tuning for lighter riders. Let's face it, the 20" XCM is throw away junk. The 24" Judy is at least an air fork, but it will be heavy and likely isn't tuned for lighter riders.


I wouldn't assume that, at least with the Marin Hawk Hill Jr they state in the videos that the suspension is custom tuned to work with lightweight riders at adult like pressures, the air charts start at 80lbs, however. I'm sure for a bike in this pricepoint, they didn't overlook that for the San Quentin.

For the san quentin posted above, the I'm sure much of the design has to do with input from Matt Jones. Their in-house red bull sponsored slope style rider who has a son in this age group. You can see Matt Jones and his son in one of the San Quentin pictures on Marin's website. In matt's youtube videos, you can see his son doing crazy jumps on a previous marin hardtail.

I don't think these bikes were designed for the typical trail rider. I think they're meant for jumps and slope style riding.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Neseth said:


> I wouldn't assume that, at least with the Marin Hawk Hill Jr they state in the videos that the suspension is custom tuned to work with lightweight riders at adult like pressures, the air charts start at 80lbs, however. I'm sure for a bike in this pricepoint, they didn't overlook that for the San Quentin.
> 
> For the san quentin posted above, the I'm sure much of the design has to do with input from Matt Jones. Their in-house red bull sponsored slope style rider who has a son in this age group. You can see Matt Jones and his son in one of the San Quentin pictures on Marin's website. In matt's youtube videos, you can see his son doing crazy jumps on a previous marin hardtail.
> 
> I don't think these bikes were designed for the typical trail rider. I think they're meant for jumps and slope style riding.


For the kiddos that end up on these, I hope you're correct. It just seems FAR more common for companies to slap whatever off the shelf part that "works" onto a kids bike and call it a day. I saw where the rear shock lists as having a custom tune, but not the front. I could be missing something, though.

Also keep in mind the pressure/weight guides for the respective fork manufactures. The X-Fusion found on the Hawk Hill lists down to 100lbs @ 55psi in their setup guide. The Rockshox on the San Quentin only goes down to 140 lbs @ 50 psi. The stock Manitou Markhor falls in between at 120lbs @ 70psi. By comparison the Machete JUnit 24, designed specifically for kids lists down to a 40 lbs rider @ as low as 25psi. I remember in some older guides manufacturers would list min and max pressures. It seems like now it is only max.

Even if they get the tuning right, Marin is probably adding at least 1.5 lbs to the front end specifying the Judy over the Manitou JUnit 24 or even the 26" Markhor.

________

And just like that, a day later the geometry numbers are up. I didn't look too closely at the 20", but did at the 24". For the most part, I would say that the specs are "within range" when compared to other 24" bikes out there. However, it does have shorter chain stays, longer wheel base and a slacker head angle than just about anything else available. The stack is also quite high compared to most everything, save for the Commencal Meta HT 24.

All in all, the new kids San Quentins actually check a lot of boxes. I would certainly take them into consideration if they are within budget. If you're looking for a kids trail bike and can stretch your budget a little further, it looks like the aforementioned Commencal may present a better value.


----------



## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

Yes, but in the U.S. Commencal is for the most part a direct to consumer brand, unless you live near Golden, Colorado near the distributor.

Marin is a fairly widely distributed bike shop brand now. So you do get that extra bike shop support and initial free assembly and tuning.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

My bigger issue on the Commencal 24" is spending $1400 on something that starts out at almost 27 lbs.

I can get a Cujo 24 for $500 from REI, throw on a Junit fork & bars, some 4 piston brakes, Prevelo cranks, a new drivetrain, and upgraded hubs and still come out ahead in both price & weight.

Note that from asking some questions to Hayes the other day, it sounds like the Junit forks on the Meta HT series are an OEM version that cut costs (no IRT & slightly heavier weight).

I just wish Commencal / Cannondale / Marin would stop shipping these frames with 135 QR rear and move to a real through-axle!


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

TimTucker said:


> My bigger issue on the Commencal 24" is spending $1400 on something that starts out at almost 27 lbs.
> 
> I can get a Cujo 24 for $500 from REI, throw on a Junit fork & bars, some 4 piston brakes, Prevelo cranks, a new drivetrain, and upgraded hubs and still come out ahead in both price & weight.
> 
> ...


Regarding the Commencal Meta 2021, its the freaking tank wheels and heavy tires man. Otherwise the bike isn't bad, they even reduced the cranks to 145mm and seem to be nice cranks (not square taper junk).

Regarding the fork, the 2021 is the JUnit Pro...which is their nicer one. I don't think any of the OEM forks come with their IRT cap or their aftermarket ones. I've only seen those from the Manitou sponsored riders...but I could be wrong. The new PRO does come with lighter lowers and an Alum air spring (same as Durado spring) rather than the steel one...which cuts the weight a bit.

Regarding the old one, there were no corners cut on the Commencal JUnit. They still had the expert air (steel shaft) and ABS+ damper etc. Pretty incredible stuff. My kid throws it pretty big on scary stuff and that fork certainly helps when things go wrong at an ER level.

You might be thinking of Norco...now they DID cut corners and put out a JUnit fork on their lower build FS bikes. It didn't even have the Expert Air spring (dual chamber is pretty critical at these low PSI's). They just had their cheaper stuff. I messed with it and it totally sucked compared to the normal JUnit fork with Expert air.

Nevertheless, that Commencal is nice...but you'd have to swap the wheels out. We have them...they are horribly heavy. I'm not a fan of the FlowSnap tires either but they would work fine.

If you are dropping 1400$+ 130$ (shipping)...you could just get a YT Primus 24". That's a sick FS trail bike with a pretty killer build.


----------



## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

svinyard said:


> Regarding the Commencal Meta 2021, its the freaking tank wheels and heavy tires man. Otherwise the bike isn't bad, they even reduced the cranks to 145mm and seem to be nice cranks (not square taper junk).
> 
> Regarding the fork, the 2021 is the JUnit Pro...which is their nicer one. I don't think any of the OEM forks come with their IRT cap or their aftermarket ones. I've only seen those from the Manitou sponsored riders...but I could be wrong. The new PRO does come with lighter lowers and an Alum air spring (same as Durado spring) rather than the steel one...which cuts the weight a bit.
> 
> ...


The Primus is $1900.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification svinyard. I was looking high and low to find evidence that any of the JUnit forks available to consumers were equipped with IRT. I had only seen that on the custom unit RMCDan posted. But, I haven't been following the JUnit development too closely as they won't fit any of my kiddos' bikes.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Thanks for the clarification svinyard. I was looking high and low to find evidence that any of the JUnit forks available to consumers were equipped with IRT. I had only seen that on the custom unit RMCDan posted. But, I haven't been following the JUnit development too closely as they won't fit any of my kiddos' bikes.


Note that the lack of IRT / heavier steel parts on the internals on the Commencal Pro fork vs. the aftermarket version came directly emailing Hayes to ask after seeing the 2021 Meta HT specs.

It sounded like they have some of the new aftermarket Pro stuff (including the new riser bars) in stock at their warehouse, but just haven't listed them on the website yet.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

TimTucker said:


> Note that the lack of IRT / heavier steel parts on the internals on the Commencal Pro fork vs. the aftermarket version came directly emailing Hayes to ask after seeing the 2021 Meta HT specs.
> 
> It sounded like they have some of the new aftermarket Pro stuff (including the new riser bars) in stock at their warehouse, but just haven't listed them on the website yet.


Can you post up the email you got from Hayes? It doesn't seem to coincide with what I have seen with what is available to the public at large, or with svinyard's comments above.


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

It's likely on point. There are a few things that Manitou has that arent released (some might not ever). I'd not be surprised to see something like the JUnit Pro Durado or something that has the alum spring and maybe IRT. I've been in touch with the Global Prod Managment but not on these details. Any of the forks will be awesome tho. Their brakes are ultra incredible as well with the Small Finger Lever.


----------



## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Neseth said:


> Marin is a fairly widely distributed bike shop brand now. So you do get that extra bike shop support and initial free assembly and tuning.


This was another reply on the Facebook post that I mentioned starting this thread. (The OP had started off saying they didn't want to wait for the Woom to come in stock, and what about these new Marins?)



> Our son rides the San Quentin 24". It's definitely more aggressively built with an enduro/trail feel. He loves it because he jumps. Depends on how your kid wants to ride. It's not going to be as light as a Woom but it may be able to withstand more use. We'll be getting the SQ 20 as soon as we can get our hands on one. ? (Full disclosure- we own a bike shop that sales Marin but we've personally owned bikes from lots of brands)


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

I saw that post. For anyone curious, this is the bike shop that they own. They also just posted a video on the new San Quentins that I haven't watched yet.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu-M7UsKi_2UazaNxBlyH3A


----------



## Seb15 (Jun 15, 2018)

This Marin 24" looked good until I learned it's over 29lbs, too heavy for a 24" trail bike. Back to waiting until 2021...


----------



## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

^^^ that's what you get for the price most places. No different than adult hard tails which are well north of thirty at similar spec. The coil spring fork with steel stanchions is a real killer, just swapping that for a Reba would lose a few pounds and the big tires are weighty too.

Woom has been changing expectations for the bike nerd community, I think, and bike store brands haven't caught up or don't care to. Some of their deal is choosing smaller brand name parts (9 speed cassette, narrow rims and not-plus Rocket Ron tires, non-boost), some of it is committing to their own OEM kid strength components like the suspension fork and crankset.

Bike store brands meanwhile are still building with shortened adult strength components and plus tires, and those components have to be rated for a 275-lb obese XL adult. At least it renders them amenable to the same kind of upgrades an adult bike gets.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Darth Lefty said:


> Bike store brands meanwhile are still building with shortened adult strength components and plus tires, and those components have to be rated for a 275-lb obese XL adult. At least it renders them amenable to the same kind of upgrades an adult bike gets.


When I'd emailed Hayes about this they brought up that we have youth standards for general bikes and DH standards for adults, but no DH standards for youth.

Their view seemed to be that if they're marketing components for potential DH use, their only real choice at this point is to make them to the adult standards.


----------



## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

TimTucker said:


> When I'd emailed Hayes about this they brought up that we have youth standards for general bikes and DH standards for adults, but no DH standards for youth.
> 
> Their view seemed to be that if they're marketing components for potential DH use, their only real choice at this point is to make them to the adult standards.


This is *the* issue. Any product sold in the US must meet CPSC safety standards, and the CPSC does not have separate MTB standards for youth bikes. So, in the "Light/strong/cheap, pick two" bargain the "strong" part is not negotiable.


----------

