# Armed while biking in GA



## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

I plan to carry while riding. All standard laws for open carry apply in GA.

I'd love to hear (and learn from) your thoughts/experiences with biking while armed for example;

*Has anyone been unduly harassed by LEO's, if so, pls share lessons learned?*

*Is it possible to violate the law if you're passing the front of certain zones, etc.?*

*Also want to hear your thoughts & rationale on, holsters, fitment(waist, open, ccw, chest,etc.) or any other viable weapons choices besides firearms.*

Lastly, pls feel free to chime in on anything related to this topic that I have not covered... thanks in advance!


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## weeksy950 (Jan 11, 2012)

Dare i ask... Why ?


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

weeksy950 said:


> Dare i ask... Why ?


Of course... and I totally understand the sensibility in asking as some folks can debate to no end, which is no fun for everyone. Please allow me to ease the concern by stating I sincerely respect and value everyone's opinion on this (yes, even if I disagree with it - its called equanimity). I do believe we all bring some value to the table and encourage all input on this topic as the goal here is to learn the pros and cons to undertaking this or not (however my preference goes to thoughts derived from real world experiences).

With that out of the way, I will expound as to my reasoning for "why?"

1. I am experienced and proficient with weapons and already carry on my person as well as my car, several places in my home etc. as matter of S.O.P. (no I'm not a law officer or military nor am I a stolen valor wanna-be).

2. I am just a man on the land fully cognizant of threats posed by real world scenarios that can potentially occur anywhere. As my intended journeys take me though various areas (some "more desirable" than others for lack better words) I intend to take every precaution available to me within legal limits.

3. The above does NOT mean I live in fear or a constant state of paranoia. It means I am NOT deluded about the purported "good nature" of people and I have very much 
intentionally taken the time to educate & prepare myself for such situations, which, TBH are EXTREMELY RARE. This is truly a case of having something and hoping NEVER to have to use it.

4. It is my right to exercise freely as well. Yes, while I must acknowledge some weapons owners can be inconsiderate or outright belligerent, flaunting their "rights" in your face with a certain smugness, the fact remains it is 100% perfectly legal. I do not need a permit but I do also have one.

5. Potential threats in the environment do not have to necessarily be directed at me, it may be incumbent upon me to act. This is something I do NOT take lightly and once again hope I never ever have to be in this situation but if I am, better to be prepared and not need it. for a classic example of a trained individual see: 




6. There is the old adage "When seconds matter, the police are only a few minutes away.' which sounds cutesy but holds true.

7. Lastly, why not??

Looking forward to civil discourse, do NOT want an all out sh*tshow argument thread. dissenting voices are welcome and lets agree in advance:

we all want to be safe
we all want to employ a modicum of control in life-threatening situations
best of all we all want to avoid such scenraios

Thanks!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

jay76 said:


> Looking forward to civil discourse, do NOT want an all out sh*tshow argument thread. dissenting voices are welcome and lets agree in advance:


You're obviously new here and didn't search the forum for previous approaches to the topic. They ALL become shitshows.

Getting down to it, I don't see how open carry makes logistical sense when riding a mtb. Concealed makes more sense, for a variety of reasons. And other options make far more sense than a firearm on a bike, also. You're better off with bear spray (if bears are a likely scenario) or a smaller pepper spray for people, for the kinds of things you're likely to encounter on the trail.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

What trails are you going to be riding that are "less desirable"?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

duplicate


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I would strongly recommend against open carry. I think it's a bad idea under any circumstances, but likely to be even more so if you share your trails with your typical mountain biker, judging by the hysteria these threads generate from the Real Mountain Bikers on this site. The gun _will _be noticed on the trails, and it _will _be commented on. In a negative context, most likely. Concealed is better if you wish to avoid unpleasant confrontations that will splash over onto your riding buddies.

Strategies that I have employed have been either a belt mounted leather belt slide holster carried under a baggy mountain bike jersey, or a 5.11 holster shirt with loose nylon zip-up over it. Kydex rubs and pokes and is not suitable for a long ride - I've found that a flexible leather holster work best...never found a nylon holster that is secure enough for me. I'd recommend against appendix carry and SOB carry because those are the locations likely to cause the most pain if you land on the weapon if/when you fall. Along those lines, I'd recommend a subcompact semi-auto, or a small revolver like a J-frame. Lastly, clean and oil the weapon after every ride. Sweat will rust that sucker in a hearbeat.

There really isn't any law enforcement on the trails around here but "harrassment" by LEO is pretty rare when riding through town (especially if concealed) although that's variable by location. Some store owners and restaurants that cater to bikers do post against carrying in their establishment, another reason to conceal well or not carry. Might not be true in some places, but around here the extensive trail network has various side trails into town for access to restaurants, bars, breweries, bike shops etc. None of them around here are posted against carrying, but that might be an issue in some places.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah. Open carry can be provocative in many circumstances, which is why many states which allow permitted concealed carry prohibit open carry and can get pretty specific as to the level of concealment required. I've open carried mtbing while hunting where pretty much anybody you came across was armed. I concealed carried a few times, experimentally, but haven't in years and don't have any inclination to in my current riding circumstances. I could envision situations where I might want to take along a firearm but don't expect I'll be in any of those, as far as I can see. Like a lot of things, the specifics of the situation make all the difference.


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## guido316 (Apr 20, 2018)

As a long time road rider, new MTB studentI can say with authority, " there have been times when a little something in the hydration pack evens the score." It's concealed, doesn't chafe, and carries well, - it's a tool that I hope I won't have to use.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

guido316 said:


> As a long time road rider, new MTB studentI can say with authority, " there have been times when a little something in the hydration pack evens the score." It's concealed, doesn't chafe, and carries well, - it's a tool that I hope I won't have to use.


I agree with this and if I need it bad enough, that's where I carry it.

I have carried a firearm on my road bike for years for numerous reasons, but out on the trails with my mountain bike, I usually leave it at home.

I normally don't go anywhere else without my firearm for numerous reasons that I won't go into detail about here, but I also find it tremendously liberating to NOT have it when I'm out on the bike doing something I enjoy.

I wouldn't put any thought into the haters who judge the decision to carry or not carry, but I would 2nd or 3rd the posters here who strongly caution against open carry. Bigotry and ignorance is rampant and it's easier to just keep it to yourself than to deal with that nonsense. Just behave yourself and act like a responsible armed citizen and you'll be fine.

Also, with respect to your legal question, if you really want to know the answer, you should be seeking professional advice, not asking a bunch of random strangers on a mountain biking forum.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Throw the gun in your pack. The biggest, by far, threat when mountain biking is crashing. Crashing onto a pistol can crack your ribs pretty easily. 

I own guns, Im a decent gunsmith, I reload match ammo, I hunt... I leave that stuff at home when I'm out riding my bike. Im safer without it. I absolutely have crashed on my gear, and it really, really hurts.

I think you're kidding yourself and you should leave your gun at home, but im also 99.9% sure you dont care what I think about that :lol: . Just do yourself a favor and keep the gun somewhere that wont puncture your body when you crash on it. The pack is the best place.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

Harold said:


> You're obviously new here and didn't search the forum for previous approaches to the topic. They ALL become shitshows.


LOL, guess I'll just enjoy the ride then!



Harold said:


> Getting down to it, I don't see how open carry makes logistical sense when riding a mtb. Concealed makes more sense, for a variety of reasons. And other options make far more sense than a firearm on a bike, also. You're better off with bear spray (if bears are a likely scenario) or a smaller pepper spray for people, for the kinds of things you're likely to encounter on the trail.


All good points regarding open carry... acknowledged.

I am not insistent upon open carry. I guess I initially mentioned open carry for my selfish reason of carry comfort while riding when I first posted. I prematurely titled it "open carry in GA" I've since edited it to the current header "Armed while biking in GA" as the aim is not to provoke.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

chazpat said:


> What trails are you going to be riding that are "less desirable"?


In my case, its not just trails as some of my long commuting paths can take me through different environments and honestly, I don't necessarily look at a nice suburb vs. ghetto area and judge one or the other as being safer. Wherever there's people there can be crime.

A rider focused on where they're going etc. can appear vulnerable to interested parties looking for a quick score. That could range from thieves, to unruly youngsters etc.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

One Pivot said:


> Throw the gun in your pack. The biggest, by far, threat when mountain biking is crashing. Crashing onto a pistol can crack your ribs pretty easily.
> 
> I own guns, Im a decent gunsmith, I reload match ammo, I hunt... I leave that stuff at home when I'm out riding my bike. Im safer without it. I absolutely have crashed on my gear, and it really, really hurts.
> 
> I think you're kidding yourself and you should leave your gun at home, but im also 99.9% sure you dont care what I think about that :lol: . Just do yourself a favor and keep the gun somewhere that wont puncture your body when you crash on it. The pack is the best place.


Actually you make some valid points. GOD or guns which is better protection?

I will consider this (gun location, backpack as opposed to on me for safety against self-injury, traveling lighter w/o it & alternatives such as pepper spray)

Thank you my friend.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Honestly, Im just out riding my bike in the woods man. Im not that worried about defense.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

non gun owner here. Pretty much anti-gun actually. 

Shot when I was younger...purely for target shooting. Dad was a Marine so I had to know my way around guns. I really liked shooting at the range, but it never ever crossed my mind to have or need a gun off of the range. And that was what my dad taught me. His mind set was: only on duty military, police, FBI etc, should have guns outside of the range. He stored his pistol and rifle at the range as well. Never at home. Via his instruction and beliefs about guns, I feel like most humans don't really understand the amount of power a gun gun gives them, or the level of responsibility. They don't understand the moral brevity and responsibility surrounding the tool. Guns allow you to act without thinking, and to not be a personal part of the attack.

The only weapon I ever carried was a knife...for when my rock band was playing in really bad parts of cities on the East coast. I only had to use it once, and it was just brandishing...which is exactly why I only wanted a knife. In that one incident, if I had a gun, my life would have been much different now. Not being allowed to just quickly pull a trigger kept many things in check that evening. It took out the "reactionary" element and made me and the perpetrator have to actually think about our decisions. He left unscarred and with none of our equipment. I left with out the blood on my conscience and with all of our equipment. 

I could never carry on my bike for fear of the thing going off when I crash. I also ride (BMX) in sketchy places often, and have NEVER felt like I needed a gun, or that it would have helped in the few situations I have been in. 

I would just hope that no one gets hurt for any reason with a gun that a biker has on the trail. Whether it be accidental firing after a wreck...getting stolen out of the bag...falling out as people ride, and being found by someone else...whatever. 

I have back country hiked/camped much of my life, and again, have NEVER felt like a gun would have helped me in any of the situations I was in. Wilderness smarts, and knowledge of how animals interact have been my biggest helps. Have had 5 bear encounters, 5-6 moose encounters...and all of them were resolved by just being aware, calm and savvy.

So just be careful, for others sake. Remember that a bad incident might not be because of your use of the gun, but might be a result of "the other persons" involvement in the situation.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I ride in the woods at night sometimes alone. I carry a little knife on my Camelbak strap. In eight years of night riding, I've seen a few other bikers and ONCE I saw three kids smoking weed fifty feet in from the trail entrance. I scared the crap out of them. 

I live in NY and have never felt the need to bring a gun biking.


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

I choose to cc (while riding) for my own reasons but if i oc'd, I would use a level 2 (or 3) retention holster with a thumb indexed release...like the Safariland with ALS.

Started with hydration/fanny pack carry but found that to be practically/tactically useless.

Pocket carried for a few years but the holstered gun would flop around and occasionally orientate itself into a difficult position to draw.

Now I cc iwb using a kydex holster with an Ulticlip. The retention on this is good enough that I dumped the little 380 and now carry a S&W Shield 40. The Kydex does not bother my skin (and I'm a ginger w/ sensitive skin).

Holster: https://www.cooksholsters.com/ulticlip-iwb-holster/
Utiliclip: https://www.ulticlip.com/


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jay76 said:


> Lastly, pls feel free to chime in on anything related to this topic that I have not covered... thanks in advance!


If you wan't to carry while riding just shut up and do it, these threads serve no other purpose except to bristle fur and provide mild entertainment for some. You say that you're "experienced and proficient with weapons" so what do you hope to learn here in the beginner mtb forum? I think nothing.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Carrying in a pack defeats the purpose of carrying to begin with, IMO.
Open carry brings it own host of potential issues. 
Chest packs are particularly uncomfortable when it's hot. 
With the variety of subcompact pistols and custom kydex rigs with built in retention available today, I'd consider a small fanny pack, or even IWB.

Too funny that the ad on the right of my screen is a USCCA(whatever that is) "Find your perfect holster" one. Not sure there's such thing as a perfect rig when you're talking about one for cycling, though!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> If you wan't to carry while riding just shut up and do it, these threads serve no other purpose except to bristle fur and provide mild entertainment for some. You say that you're "experienced and proficient with weapons" so what do you hope to learn here in the beginner mtb forum? I think nothing.


Ditto that.

I see guys riding open carry in OR/WA sometimes, didn't bother me in the least. With that said I think most people would agree there are already to many morons in the woods with guns. I think most replies on these threads (mine included) are predicated on that, hence little usefulness if not polarizing.


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

Also, Handgunlaw.us is a good resource.


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

Never ridden anywhere this was even an option or necessary.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

OwenM said:


> Carrying in a pack defeats the purpose of carrying to begin with, IMO.


I think you would have to establish that there is a purpose to carrying to begin with, before claiming that anything defeats that purpose.

Really though, whats the fantasy here? That you'll be crushing some singletrack and 100 yards down the trail a crackhead will jump out foaming at the mouth and you'll whip out your g19 and put two in him without even stopping?

Thats kinda nuts isnt it!?

WORST case scenario, someone tries to rob you. Tell them the wallet is in your camelbak... seems a little more plausible, I think.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> If you wan't to carry while riding just shut up and do it, these threads serve no other purpose except to bristle fur and provide mild entertainment for some. You say that you're "experienced and proficient with weapons" so what do you hope to learn here in the beginner mtb forum? I think nothing.


Clearly you did not read my post in that I am interested in reading people's experiences WHILE RIDING OPEN OR CCW!!!

THIS IS A POST FOR NEWB BIKERS NOT NEWB ARMED CITIZENS!

If you have nothing to contribute other than making it known this post somehow peeves you, I suggest you take your own advice.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jay76 said:


> I suggest you take your own advice.


I am, I'm one of those who are mildly entertained. Carry on!


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

One Pivot said:


> I think you would have to establish that there is a purpose to carrying to begin with, before claiming that anything defeats that purpose.
> 
> Really though, whats the fantasy here? That you'll be crushing some singletrack and 100 yards down the trail a crackhead will jump out foaming at the mouth and you'll whip out your g19 and put two in him without even stopping?
> 
> ...


*Listen to what you wrote.... the only fantasy here is your painting me "responsible gun-owner" as an overzealous cowboy and your reliance on a criminal's good nature in not harming you while robbing you.

If your main point is that a self-defense situation is highly unlikely I agree 100%..... and that is EXACTLY how I want it to stay!*


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

willawry'd said:


> I choose to cc (while riding) for my own reasons but if i oc'd, I would use a level 2 (or 3) retention holster with a thumb indexed release...like the Safariland with ALS.
> 
> Started with hydration/fanny pack carry but found that to be practically/tactically useless.
> 
> ...


^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE ^^^

Thank you for sharing, will explore those options.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

jay76 said:


> ^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE ^^^
> 
> Thank you for sharing, will explore those options.


I know you a beginner mtber but you also said you are experienced with carrying, is this really something you could not figure out? Or were you just trolling for a laugh? Also you could have searched because this has been covered multiple times in multiple threads with even more detailed advice but regardless they all end the same way.

Also One Pivot and J.B Weld all gave you good advice...one preventative and one cautionary, it might not have been to your liking but your reaction was unnecessary imho


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

*Clarification on this post*

*I am NOT:*


asking for legal advice.
trying to decide if I should carry or not
looking to debate those who feel there's no need for guns
interested in nonsensical dialogue outside of the scope of this topic disguised as "witty banter"

*I am:*


interested in hearing and possibly learning from the experience of those who do carry while riding
Interested in discussing open & ccw, quirks (i.e. holsters, fitment, placement, lessons learned, links to good products)
Interested in the thoughts of those who oppose carrying while offering alternative solutions- emphasis on alternative solutions.

Thanks in advance to all who respond, hell come to think of it, even the non-value-added comments are entertaining at the very least, pls let's carry on!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

weeksy950 said:


> Dare i ask... Why ?


Have you ever watched Deliverance?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

jay76 said:


> [*]Interested in the thoughts of those who oppose carrying while offering alternative solutions- emphasis on alternative solutions.
> [/LIST]


I feel like my previous response fits this...the alternative solution is to ride without a gun, be wary of where you do ride, and understand the psyche of "the criminal mind". When I was doing bicycle couriering back in the 90's, my U-lock was all I needed to thwart a few situations as well. Kept a homeless guy from harassing a women, and sometimes let drivers know when they were "unaware" of my presence. Situations that gun use would have just escalated on so many levels.

Some have mentioned carrying a knife, which is better to me than a gun because it still has a "check" to being reactionary...and that check is that you have to get right up on the person and interact with them to cause harm. You have to "be a part of it", which tends to make you think more. Causes you to "count to 10". Guns don't allow this.

Like you have mentioned, no one is going to change your mind...and no one is going to change mine...i am just giving you real life examples of where or when I did not need a gun to get out of sticky situations...situations that most people think only a gun would have been effective.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

One Pivot said:


> Really though, whats the fantasy here? That you'll be crushing some singletrack and 100 yards down the trail a crackhead will jump out foaming at the mouth and you'll whip out your g19 and put two in him without even stopping?
> 
> Thats kinda nuts isnt it!?
> .


You said it, not him, so yeah, it is nuts.

Why do people constantly believe that an armed citizen has some glorious fantasy about shooting somone?

It is an incredible responsibility, and an incredible burden to carry a firearm. Not some glorious romantic thing where armed citizens are all daydreaming about being a hero and can't wait for the chance to fire their weapon at the slightest strange movement from a blade of grass.

Anyone who thinks thats what going through the average gun owners mind needs to grow up, harden up, and shut up. Get yourselved into an unhinged lather over things you make up.


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## JamesPM (Apr 8, 2009)

_I'm sure glad I was blessed with a decently above average cock and never felt the need to over compensate with carrying a gun around.. _ Trollolololl

Also, a few years back in Montana or Idaho, some idiot shot himself in the leg during a crash on his bike, I want to say he had his holster in a thigh pocket of his shorts.. I don't recall if it was a Kimber or Taurus, but the fool almost bled to death before some hikers found him..


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

DethWshBkr said:


> You said it, not him, so yeah, it is nuts.
> 
> Why do people constantly believe that an armed citizen has some glorious fantasy about shooting somone?
> 
> ...


Except there are plenty of examples where frightened people with guns shot people they mistook for an animal or bush or otherwise presented a danger when they didn't. I'm thinking there's a pretty obvious precedent here, otherwise it wouldn't be a contentious issue.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

jay76 said:


> Actually you make some valid points. GOD or guns which is better protection?
> 
> I will consider this (gun location, backpack as opposed to on me for safety against self-injury, traveling lighter w/o it & alternatives such as pepper spray)
> 
> Thank you my friend.


Since you are new to the sport, you need to know that you are going to loose control of you bike and crash in the near future. Please make sure you gun and holster stay intact during a crash and not discharged during the crash. you don't want to hurt yourself and others. You don't want your gun to be laying around the ground and picked up by others during the time. There is also a chance that something may hit the mag release button during the crash. Every Crash is unique and no one can predict what will happen.

I am not sure what type of pistol you are going to carry, but lugging one can be challeneging whe carrying open. You are not going to sit on the saddle and turn the crank all the time. You are going to move around a lot. you are going to stand up, move to the back of the rear tire. You are going to lean left or right for turn. Fastening a 3 pound pistol securely could be a challenge on your body.

I also don't know what type of clothing you are planning to wear when riding. I assume that you are going to wear baggy shorts and loosely fit shirts. If you fasten your pistol securely, you are going to loose air flow. It will get hot..

And yes, I do occasionally open carry pistol. I have used drop leg holsters, belt holsters and chest mount holster. I have no problem with belt holster and drop leg holster when I am walking. If I have to run, they bother me to end. I can't imagine wearing them when I am riding my bike.

I can only think of 2 spots that may be comfortable, on the lower back or in front of the chest. That being said, I won't carry it on my lower back because it is out of my sight. Chest mount holster will be my only choice. But if the holster is fasten tight on my chest, it may affect my breathing..

The choice is yours. If it is up to me, I will conceal carry only. and please tell me that you are planning to carry something small like Glock 26, and not a dessert eagle.

Not discourging you from open carry, but think about it will affect your from riding.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

jay76 said:


> In my case, its not just trails as some of my long commuting paths can take me through different environments and honestly, I don't necessarily look at a nice suburb vs. ghetto area and judge one or the other as being safer. Wherever there's people there can be crime.
> 
> A rider focused on where they're going etc. can appear vulnerable to interested parties looking for a quick score. That could range from thieves, to unruly youngsters etc.


Ok, so it sounds like you are riding urban/suburban rather than actually mountain biking. I would think that some guy riding a bike through a neighborhood with a gun on display very well might lead to some residents calling the police on you, regardless if you have a permit to do so. So be prepared for that hassle if you really need your gun on display. Your thinking is that displaying your weapon will scare anyone considering attacking you from doing so? I would think that if you are riding through on a normal basis and around the same time, that might make you a target for an ambush; thieves love to steal guns.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

DethWshBkr said:


> You said it, not him, so yeah, it is nuts.
> 
> Why do people constantly believe that an armed citizen has some glorious fantasy about shooting somone?


In my area, EVERYONE I know who is an "Armed citizen" is a sheltered, white, scared, usually racist or at least ignorant person who has never been exposed to "ethnicity" ever...and they ALL feel like liberals and "the brown skinned people" are out to get them. In these peoples world, it is (frighteningly) not a fantasy, but a reality that they think is going to happen. I seriously do not know any gun owners who do not have this mentality. And they don't hide the fact that they believe this way either.



DethWshBkr said:


> It is an incredible responsibility, and an incredible burden to carry a firearm.


EXACTLY, and I feel like 1% of the carrying population actually realize this. The other 99% think it is a quick fix to a perceived threat. It is a step towards "invincibility" and security, when it really makes you more vulnerable to harm because it is a false security and sometimes encourages people to go places and do things that they shouldn't ...and it is really creating a bigger threat that we hear about in the news weekly that Whalenard is referring to



DethWshBkr said:


> Not some glorious romantic thing where armed citizens are all daydreaming about being a hero and can't wait for the chance to fire their weapon at the slightest strange movement from a blade of grass.


again, none of the people I encounter have any "romantic glorious fantasies of heroism"...mostly scared fantasy's of people "taking away freedom", or "taking their jobs", and then worse fantasy's about what they are going to do to those people to "send them back home"
I can't retype what most of the people I know who are "armed citizens" actually say about why they own a gun because I would get banned.



DethWshBkr said:


> Anyone who thinks thats what going through the average gun owners mind needs to grow up, harden up, and shut up. Get yourselved into an unhinged lather over things you make up.


...and right here is the usual type of macho, posturing, aggressive response I get from the "Armed citizens" when they I call them out, or try to discuss the possibility of not having an arsenal in their lives

again...these are my personal encounters/observations/incidents....not all situations are like this, but sadly, I can say that I probably know at least 100 "armed citizens" in my circles, and only 1 or 2 do not harbor this fear driven, xenophobic viewpoint about the reason for guns ownership. I know I am not going to change the minds of the armed...and they will never change my mind about being unarmed...I am just making observations


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Ok, so it sounds like you are riding urban/suburban rather than actually mountain biking. I would think that some guy riding a bike through a neighborhood with a gun on display very well might lead to some residents calling the police on you, regardless if you have a permit to do so. So be prepared for that hassle if you really need your gun on display. Your thinking is that displaying your weapon will scare anyone considering attacking you from doing so? I would think that if you are riding through on a normal basis and around the same time, that might make you a target for an ambush; thieves love to steal guns.


definitely great points...especially the one about the gun drawing the attention of the very people you are trying to avoid..thieves etc...just be careful.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

chazpat said:


> ...thieves love to steal guns.


This is a big issue in Atlanta.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Brodino said:


> This is a big issue in Atlanta.


...and most other cities as well...


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

The one great truth in this thread is the guy who said that these threads "ALL become shitshows". 

America is pretty evenly divided on guns. Stands to reason that this discussion forum would be too. Pretty mild so far though. I assume that the usual suspects are still getting warmed up.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

It's only the first page.


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## jmeb (Jun 4, 2014)

One thing that carrying a gun on a bike ride does: it automatically disqualifies you from ever talking about saving weight on a bike ride. 

There are no more useless pounds on a bike then a gun you'll never need. 

My advice: talk to people who have ridden tens of thousands of miles through diverse environments. Bicycle tourists and commuters are -- as a group -- more likely to have encountered anything of the type you seem to be scared of. Ask them if they ever needed a gun. 

If you don't like the answer they give, then you don't need advice from experienced bikers. You want confirmation of your beliefs.


----------



## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> The one great truth in this thread is the guy who said that these threads "ALL become shitshows".
> 
> America is pretty evenly divided on guns. Stands to reason that this discussion forum would be too. Pretty mild so far though. I assume that the usual suspects are still getting warmed up.


Oh it's coming, shots have already been fired. LoL


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

I like turtles.


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## homeslice (Jun 3, 2008)

Would you shoot a thief if they tried to steal your bike while you're away from it and they're showing no signs of being armed?


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## homeslice (Jun 3, 2008)

jmeb said:


> One thing that carrying a gun on a bike ride does: it automatically disqualifies you from ever talking about saving weight on a bike ride.
> 
> There are no more useless pounds on a bike then a gun you'll never need.
> 
> ...


YES YES YES THIS is the best comment ever on this thread.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

sXeXBMXer said:


> non gun owner here. Pretty much anti-gun actually.
> 
> Shot when I was younger...purely for target shooting. Dad was a Marine so I had to know my way around guns. I really liked shooting at the range, but it never ever crossed my mind to have or need a gun off of the range. And that was what my dad taught me. His mind set was: only on duty military, police, FBI etc, should have guns outside of the range. He stored his pistol and rifle at the range as well. Never at home. Via his instruction and beliefs about guns, I feel like most humans don't really understand the amount of power a gun gun gives them, or the level of responsibility. They don't understand the moral brevity and responsibility surrounding the tool. Guns allow you to act without thinking, and to not be a personal part of the attack.
> 
> ...


*Thank you sincerely for your thoughts, they do NOT fall upon deaf ears.*


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

Brodino said:


> I know you a beginner mtber but you also said you are experienced with carrying, is this really something you could not figure out? Or were you just trolling for a laugh? Also you could have searched because this has been covered multiple times in multiple threads with even more detailed advice but regardless they all end the same way.


*GEEZ - its called reading comprehension. NO ONE IS ASKING ABOUT CARRY LAWS ETC. If you have nothing worthwhile to say, please say nothing. Thank you kindly.*



Brodino said:


> Also One Pivot and J.B Weld all gave you good advice...one preventative and one cautionary, it might not have been to your liking but your reaction was unnecessary imho


*So in your mind, good advice is tantamount to One Pivot and J.B Weld implying I have fictional scenarios of shooting rabid crackhead without even stopping my bike in my head... If that's not talking **** about people I don't know what is, SMH. Thanks for your (whatever that was) I guess.

At the end of the day this is NOT a post about the ethics of carrying because like it or nor anyone who qualifies has the right to do so.

This post is about those who DO carry to share their experiences with LEO, logistics of carrying ON A BIKE, etc...

Also I welcome the respectful comments of those who are opposed to carrying, but I would like to hear from those folks, what alternatives they perceive to be better. Thanks.*


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

Battery said:


> I like turtles.


Turtles stink. Literally.

Prefer dogs... aww crap they stink too LOL but hey at least you can ride with them 

Thanks for this comment a much needed reprieve. OK now back to the sh*tshow LOL.


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## jmeb (Jun 4, 2014)

jay76 said:


> ....
> 
> Also I welcome the respectful comments of those who are opposed to carrying, but I would like to hear from those folks, what alternatives they perceive to be better. Thanks.


My proposed alternative:

Don't carry. It's a waste of space, a waste of time, and causes far more problems than it solves. On a mountain bike there is nothing you shouldn't be able to outrun save a mountain lion. For dogs or idiot people you're too tired to run from, pepper spray is much easier to tuck into a handlebar bag.

I base this proposal on approximately 50,000mi of commuting through cities including the south side of Chicago, North Minneapolis, Amsterdam, Miami and Denver. And approximately 8,000mi of touring including the rural south, parts of Mexico, shitty parts of NE cities, and a bunch of European cities including Berlin, Paris and its banlieues, London.

I have a hard time believing you're any more a target than a dorky looking white dude in spandex in those locations.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> In my area, EVERYONE I know who is an "Armed citizen" is a sheltered, white, scared, usually racist or at least ignorant person who has never been exposed to "ethnicity" ever...and they ALL feel like liberals and "the brown skinned people" are out to get them. In these peoples world, it is (frighteningly) not a fantasy, but a reality that they think is going to happen. I seriously do not know any gun owners who do not have this mentality. And they don't hide the fact that they believe this way either.


Because of bigots like you, plenty of your friends who are gun owners don't bother to talk about it with you. They fear you'll label them as sheltered, white, scared, racist, or worse, when in fact, they're none of those things--they're the same people you've always known, people you would choose to judge, label, and discredit if you knew they owned a gun or two.

I don't really know why I chose to engage this, but I do find your commentary, in a word, pathetic. That is, I genuinely feel sorry for you not knowing that there are plenty of people who are not racist, *******, white, (insert adjective here), who happen to own guns and shoot them. Not all of them are hunters, cops, or outdoorsman at all. Many are non-white, enlightened, college-educated, liberal, or otherwise a lot like you.

I don't blame your friends one bit for not telling you they're gun owners, either, because it's actually safer and easier to just avoid these issues and keep to yourself instead of trying to convince you that there are perfectly normal and reasonable people who own and carry guns.

For the other poster who said that a gun in the pack defeats the purpose, while I would generally agree with this sentiment, I do not agree that it fits this context. Anything worth shooting on the trail is going to present itself and its danger from quite a distance.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

homeslice said:


> Would you shoot a thief if they tried to steal your bike while you're away from it and they're showing no signs of being armed?


Hmm something to consider.. No one can accurately delve in to the hypothetical scenario here, rather let's look at the intrinsic ethics of this question.

The ethical premise hinges upon whether or not I believe that an unarmed person who attempts to steal my bike should be deal with using deadly force.

This is a valid question and salient point. For conversation sake, let's say the answer is no but then I also believe I should involve the police. I call them, they track the suspect down and he is escaping from them or attempts to fight them all while he is unarmed and they use deadly force.

*

Does that absolve you of your perceived involvement?

So if you initiate potentially deadly force via a proxy, does that NOT weigh on your conscience?

What is the boundary of your personal responsibility or involvement?

" When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away. "
-Unknown*


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

homeslice said:


> Would you shoot a thief if they tried to steal your bike while you're away from it and they're showing no signs of being armed?


I don't know the answer to this question and I hope I never have to answer it, but a person trying to take your bike from you by force or threat of force is committing a robbery, which was a capital crime at common law. Taking property from one's person is not a mere property crime; it is a crime against a person and should be taken very seriously.

Regardless of whether one would be willing to use deadly force in this context, I can tell by the latter portion of your question that you seem concerned about the wrong fact--whether they're armed--instead of the fact that the person in your hypothetical is either about to, or in the process of, committing a violent felony.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

twodownzero said:


> I don't know the answer to this question and I hope I never have to answer it, but a person trying to take your bike from you by force or threat of force is committing a robbery, which was a capital crime at common law. Taking property from one's person is not a mere property crime; it is a crime against a person and should be taken very seriously.
> 
> Regardless of whether one would be willing to use deadly force in this context, I can tell by the latter portion of your question that you seem concerned about the wrong fact--whether they're armed--instead of the fact that the person in your hypothetical is either about to, or in the process of, committing a violent felony.


I would just let the person take my bike. It's only a material thing and my deductible is cheaper than hiring a lawyer.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

twodownzero said:


> Because of bigots like you, plenty of your friends who are gun owners don't bother to talk about it with you. They fear you'll label them as sheltered, white, scared, racist, or worse, when in fact, they're none of those things--they're the same people you've always known, people you would choose to judge, label, and discredit if you knew they owned a gun or two.
> 
> I don't really know why I chose to engage this, but I do find your commentary, in a word, pathetic. That is, I genuinely feel sorry for you not knowing that there are plenty of people who are not racist, *******, white, (insert adjective here), who happen to own guns and shoot them. Not all of them are hunters, cops, or outdoorsman at all. Many are non-white, enlightened, college-educated, liberal, or otherwise a lot like you.
> 
> ...


*Agree 100%, your response to sXeXBMXer is SPOT ON, I could not have said it better myself. Thank you for this. (sorry I haven't figured out how to add his quote yet.)

BTW I hail ethnically from the Dominican Republic *(_yes, I'm a non-white person but because I'm a gun owner, I too must fear brown-skinned people too if you let sXeXBMXer tell it_)*, though I was born and raised in NYC a far cry from sXeXBMXer's insane notion of gun owners are southern white supremacists.

Sadly some comments here sound like pathetic SJW's who exist in a mainstream media bubblehead mentality.

Much like you sir, I prefer to deal in objective reality- some of the responses have made me almost regret posting here. Anyways, kudos on this response to sXeXBMXer!!!*


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

homeslice said:


> Would you shoot a thief if they tried to steal your bike while you're away from it and they're showing no signs of being armed?


That would be illegal (in virtually all states) and exceedingly stupid.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> In my area, EVERYONE I know who is an "Armed citizen" is a sheltered, white, scared, usually racist or at least ignorant person who has never been exposed to "ethnicity" ever...and they ALL feel like liberals and "the brown skinned people" are out to get them. In these peoples world, it is (frighteningly) not a fantasy, but a reality that they think is going to happen. I seriously do not know any gun owners who do not have this mentality. And they don't hide the fact that they believe this way either.


CNN reporter.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

blizzardpapa said:


> I would just let the person take my bike. It's only a material thing and my deductible is cheaper than hiring a lawyer.


We had a case like that here just two years ago in August 2016. A man pointed a gun at another man and demanded his car keys so he could take his car. The man with the keys gave his keys to the man and the man with the gun shot the man with the keys anyway.

The victim survived the gunshot wound, but I share this story to illustrate a point that appears lost on you. A person who is robbing you might not stop using the force just because you give him the property. A person who is taking your property by force is a threat to both you and your continued possession of that property. To reduce a robbery to a mere property crime is to really miss the point. A robbery is not only a property crime.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> We had a case like that here just two years ago in August 2016. A man pointed a gun at another man and demanded his car keys so he could take his car. The man with the keys gave his keys to the man and the man with the gun shot the man with the keys anyway.
> 
> The victim survived the gunshot wound, but I share this story to illustrate a point that appears lost on you. A person who is robbing you might not stop using the force just because you give him the property. A person who is taking your property by force is a threat to both you and your continued possession of that property. To reduce a robbery to a mere property crime is to really miss the point. A robbery is not only a property crime.


Theft, not robbery. Your post has no relevance.



homeslice said:


> Would you shoot a thief if they *tried to steal your bike while you're away from it and they're showing no signs of being armed*?


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> Theft, not robbery. Your post has no relevance.


It looks like I responded without comprehending exactly what the hypo is. Does "away from it" mean nowhere near it? If so, then I agree with you. But if you're away from it, how would you know it's being taken? The hypo makes no sense.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

twodownzero said:


> I don't know the answer to this question and I hope I never have to answer it, but a person trying to take your bike from you by force or threat of force is committing a robbery, which was a capital crime at common law. Taking property from one's person is not a mere property crime; it is a crime against a person and should be taken very seriously.
> 
> Regardless of whether one would be willing to use deadly force in this context, I can tell by the latter portion of your question that you seem concerned about the wrong fact--whether they're armed--instead of the fact that the person in your hypothetical is either about to, or in the process of, committing a violent felony.





twodownzero said:


> We had a case like that here just two years ago in August 2016. A man pointed a gun at another man and demanded his car keys so he could take his car. The man with the keys gave his keys to the man and the man with the gun shot the man with the keys anyway.
> 
> The victim survived the gunshot wound, but I share this story to illustrate a point that appears lost on you. A person who is robbing you might not stop using the force just because you give him the property. A person who is taking your property by force is a threat to both you and your continued possession of that property. To reduce a robbery to a mere property crime is to really miss the point. A robbery is not only a property crime.


I was robbed at gun point before and I wasn't shot after i handed over my wallet. Nope. Sorry.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> It doesn't sound like you know what a robbery is. A person who is taking property from your person is not just committing a theft. This is your second post I've seen here in this thread where you appear to be commenting on the law, and the only thing I can say about that is that you don't appear to know what you're talking about. I suggest that you begin by googling the word "robbery," because your response indicates that you do not know what the elements of a robbery are. Hint: the presence of a gun is not an element.


Did you actually read the post? About the thief stealing the bike while you're away from it and him being unarmed? Didn't think so. You appear to be unclear about the appropriate use of lethal force in self defense.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

blizzardpapa said:


> I was robbed at gun point before and I wasn't shot after i handed over my wallet. Nope. Sorry.


So you won the statistical lottery, great. I hope you do next time as well.



Cuyuna said:


> Did you actually read the post? About the thief stealing the bike while you're away from it and him being unarmed? Didn't think so. You appear to be unclear about the appropriate use of lethal force in self defense.


I edited my post and I agree with you. So I pose my question to you: how would I know the bike is being taken if it isn't being taken from my person or my immediate control?

If the hypo really is asking whether a person should or could use deadly force for a pure property crime, I agree with you that it's a stupid question and the answer is a loud and clear "no."


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

I sometimes ride In very remote area's In North Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina, I often ride alone. 
The DeSantis chest holster works and does not Hinder my breathing but I just as often carry In my frame pack. I have been seen by park rangers twice now and not a word was said.
My only concern Is winding up suddenly between a bear cub and It's mother and am told any bear sighting Is very very rare.
Large calibers are a minimum but my only option. If a bear is close enough for pepper spray Its way too close, and what If Its breezy or windy, no thanks...

To the OP, I don't consider myself armed, ever. To me It's just a tool that I may need, no different than a chain breaker or a multi tool, Haven't needed my chain breaker In three years now but I still carry It.

Same principal as a Condom, 
I'd rather have It and Not need it than,,,
Need It and not have It !


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> The one great truth in this thread is the guy who said that these threads "ALL become shitshows".
> 
> America is pretty evenly divided on guns. Stands to reason that this discussion forum would be too. Pretty mild so far though. I assume that the usual suspects are still getting warmed up.


You sir have won this thread! I shall dub thee "Postradamus" for your accurate depiction of future posts LOL.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

DethWshBkr said:


> You said it, not him, so yeah, it is nuts.
> 
> Why do people constantly believe that an armed citizen has some glorious fantasy about shooting somone?


Are you on gun forums?

EVERY one im on has very frequent stories about people clearing their house with their gun. They'll hear a cat meow and heroically draw their gun and clear every room in their house, and post a detailed story about it on the forum. And theres highfives and handjobs all around from the forum. Its rarely a story about actually defending yourself. Starts to seem like people are just waiting for any noise to go be john wayne. Its pretty crazy.

Gun people LOVE that stuff. The "bump in the night" threads are always hilarious, and there's always tons of them.

You can make it out like its some lefty thing, but seriously... any gun forum. It'll have the bump in the night story. It sure sounds like people get excited about the prospect of using their gun.

Same with this thread. I own guns! Ive carried and will do so in the future. If I feel there is a reasonable threat to my life, ill have it. Im not about to ask a bunch in internet strangers what they think about it... doing so sure seems like postering, doesnt it? If there was a bump in the night and I cleared my house and found a cat making noise, id be embarrased as hell. I wouldnt share that story. Thats silly.

Sometimes it seems like half the appeal of carrying is talking about carrying. These people are like the vegans of the gun world.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

Osco said:


> I sometimes ride In very remote area's In North Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina, I often ride alone.
> The DeSantis chest holster works and does not Hinder my breathing but I just as often carry In my frame pack. I have been seen by park rangers twice now and not a word was said.
> My only concern Is winding up suddenly between a bear cub and It's mother and am told any bear sighting Is very very rare.
> Large calibers are a minimum but my only option. If a bear is close enough for pepper spray Its way too close, and what If Its breezy or windy, no thanks...
> ...


Gracias. As a person of similar disposition viewing it as a tool, I appreciate your insight and product recommendation. I shall look into the DeSantis chest holster.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

One Pivot said:


> Same with this thread. I own guns! Ive carried and will do so in the future. If I feel there is a reasonable threat to my life, ill have it. Im not about to ask a bunch in internet strangers what they think about it... doing so sure seems like postering, doesnt it?
> 
> Sometimes it seems like half the appeal of carrying is talking about carrying. These people are like the vegans of the gun world.


*You are full of crap! So now I'm asking strangers what they think of me carrying??? WTF are you smoking?!?

If you really were a responsible gun owner, you wouldn't have such a glaring hypocrisy all over your post that is even dumber than the cat stories you supposedly abhor on all the gun forums you frequent.

That's right because we all make it a habit to frequent forums we have no interest in just like you apparently do. Yep, seems perfectly rational.

Grow ganglion at least before you respond- pathetic!*


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Meh, I ride in southern Arizona all of the time and haven't felt the need to go armed. If it makes you feel safe or superior or whatever go ahead but you'll find yourself the center of attention and that's almost never a good thing.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> ...If it makes you feel safe or superior or whatever go ahead but you'll find yourself the center of attention and that's almost never a good thing.


This part of your comment classically exposes your bias... delusional.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

jay76 said:


> This part of your comment classically exposes your bias... delusional.


Bias? Delusional? I'll have you know that I forgot more about weapons and operating them than you'll ever know, as do many of the respondents in this thread. You vastly overestimate yourself. Carry on with your own delusion.


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## jmeb (Jun 4, 2014)

jay76 said:


> This part of your comment classically exposes your bias... delusional.


You're the one who thinks you need to carry on a mtb. That's delusional. Please stop cocking up the forum with gun activism. There are other sub-forums here for that. It is in no way related to beginner mtbing.

You come to a mountain bike forum, asking for advice and opinions on carrying a gun while biking. People on here have umpteen-thousands times the experience you do on riding bikes, situations that occur on them, how to deal with danger in mtbing, commuting and touring scenarios. They are the ones with the experience of cycling reality. Not you.

A few may carry here and there. I've yet to hear a story when it was necessary.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Though biased (I own a firearms store and a training facility), I also carry a badge and can carry in all states and am a veteran, I do carry while mountain biking mostly for 3 reasons, snakes, bears and mountain lions, the two legged creatures known as "humans" are less of a "threat" to me while on my MTB..... As per other reasons to own or carry a firearm.... Simple.... The ones who have none wants to take it from us who have some.... And a 9mm is surely much more easier, lighter and cheaper than carrying a cop with you.... My. 02

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

jmeb said:


> You're the one who thinks you need to carry on a mtb. That's delusional. Please stop cocking up the forum with gun activism. There are other sub-forums here for that. It is in no way related to beginner mtbing.
> 
> You come to a mountain bike forum, asking for advice and opinions on carrying a gun while biking. People on here have umpteen-thousands times the experience you do on riding bikes, situations that occur on them, how to deal with danger in mtbing, commuting and touring scenarios. They are the ones with the experience of cycling reality. Not you.
> 
> A few may carry here and there. I've yet to hear a story when it was necessary.


U mean like two weeks ago in Oregon?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Osco said:


> I sometimes ride In very remote area's In North Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina, I often ride alone.
> The DeSantis chest holster works and does not Hinder my breathing but I just as often carry In my frame pack. I have been seen by park rangers twice now and not a word was said.
> My only concern Is winding up suddenly between a bear cub and It's mother and am told any bear sighting Is very very rare.
> Large calibers are a minimum but my only option. If a bear is close enough for pepper spray Its way too close, and what If Its breezy or windy, no thanks...
> ...


I was giggling about the condom remark.... I was so tempted to reply with a version but.... Hey.... Guns are already sexuale enough lol

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Bias? Delusional? I'll have you know that I forgot more about weapons and operating them than you'll ever know, as do many of the respondents in this thread. You vastly overestimate yourself. Carry on with your own delusion.


Good for you. Allow me to add, egotistical & presumptuous!


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## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

So what's the best way to mount my 12ga boom stick to my 1000 amp e-bike? Do you think it will fit better if I have a 1x or a 2x drivetrain?


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## Angelcaro (Jul 17, 2016)

I use a gunfighters Kenai chest holster and it’s great, I ride technical terrain quite often and can’t tell the holster is there.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

seal13il said:


> U mean like two weeks ago in Oregon?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


U mean Washington?
I can't imagine a gun would have benefited either one of them. Not to say it wouldn't a skilled shooter calm while them or their friend is being rag dolled by a mountain lion. Bear spray may have saved his life though.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

This forum needs an enema.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

WHALENARD said:


> U mean Washington?
> I can't imagine a gun would have benefited either one of them. Not to say it wouldn't a skilled shooter calm while them or their friend is being rag dolled by a mountain lion. Bear spray may have saved his life though.


Sorry, WA, and when referring to a "skilled shooters" what is the definition of that? And why would a bear spray had helped more?....

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

twodownzero said:


> Because of bigots like you, plenty of your friends who are gun owners don't bother to talk about it with you. They fear you'll label them as sheltered, white, scared, racist, or worse, when in fact, they're none of those things--they're the same people you've always known, people you would choose to judge, label, and discredit if you knew they owned a gun or two.
> 
> I don't really know why I chose to engage this, but I do find your commentary, in a word, pathetic. That is, I genuinely feel sorry for you not knowing that there are plenty of people who are not racist, *******, white, (insert adjective here), who happen to own guns and shoot them. Not all of them are hunters, cops, or outdoorsman at all. Many are non-white, enlightened, college-educated, liberal, or otherwise a lot like you.
> 
> ...


yep. You live right next door to me and are part of all of my interactions with people. You know it all about my life! Nailed it.

These are people who PROUDLY tell me that they have guns, and why they have them (I don't think you actually read my post).

So, anywhoo....


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> yep. You live right next door to me and are part of all of my interactions with people. You know it all about my life! Nailed it.
> 
> These are people who PROUDLY tell me that they have guns, and why they have them (I don't think you actually read my post).
> 
> So, anywhoo....


I guess you're one of those people who also believes that all gay people are waiving rainbow flags at a pride parade on a daily basis, and that all of the people who use marijuana are mindless losers who sit home and eat cheetos all day. Because there couldn't possibly be a gay person, a marijuana user, a vegan, gun owner/toter or a crossfitter who didn't tell you all about it the minute you met him, right?

It must be nice to know everything about everyone you meet. It completely absolves you from having to listen to them and precludes you from having to learn anything.


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## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

jmeb said:


> You're the one who thinks you need to carry on a mtb. That's delusional. Please stop cocking up the forum with gun activism. There are other sub-forums here for that. It is in no way related to beginner mtbing.


If you think me posting to ask riders who carry to share their experiences and lessons learned is cocking up the forum with gun activism, that is YOUR problem!



jmeb said:


> I've yet to hear a story when it was necessary.


How about some video?













I could go on but I do not want to detract from the point of this post which is to learn a bit about what its like to ride and carry.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

After I last posted, I was wondering how long will it take a rider to go from the riding position to the ready to position. so I went to the garage and test it out using my vest with my holster mounted on the chest area and my bike was fasten on the trainer. I did the drill a few times, and it took me me 4 seconds. In an actual event, it may longer, or shorter, depends on how fast the bike is going and how quickly you can find a place to hide behind. 

I understand that you are experienced in open carry, but when you add a new variable, you will need to rethink your technique.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

jay76 said:


> Turtles stink. Literally.
> 
> Prefer dogs... aww crap they stink too LOL but hey at least you can ride with them
> 
> Thanks for this comment a much needed reprieve. OK now back to the sh*tshow LOL.


You can totally ride with turtles. Just gonna be a long, slow ride.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> This forum needs an enema.


I'm beginning to get an idea where it should be inserted.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> In my area, EVERYONE I know who is an "Armed citizen" is a sheltered, white, scared, usually racist or at least ignorant person who has never been exposed to "ethnicity" ever...and they ALL feel like liberals and "the brown skinned people" are out to get them. In these peoples world, it is (frighteningly) not a fantasy, but a reality that they think is going to happen. I seriously do not know any gun owners who do not have this mentality. And they don't hide the fact that they believe this way either.


Dude, where the hell are you that's so got such a concentration of assholes?

Ever consider moving somewhere civilized?


----------



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

OK, I read just so far and then gave up.

Then I searched the page for the word "deploy".

Of all the issues with carrying a weapon while biking, the biggest issue is how to deploy it when you need it. If it's behind even one zipper, it's probably going to take too long to get to it. If it's out in the open, you will probably fall on it and hurt yourself before the day arrives that you'll use it for its intended purpose.

-F


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dude, where the hell are you that's so got such a concentration of assholes?
> 
> Ever consider moving somewhere civilized?


Central Ohio

believe me, I would love to, but just can't afford to right now. My dream is to move as far a way from humanity as possible...somewhere cold. Central Michigan; the Lake Placid area; Canada; Sweden....

Granted, as many have misunderstood in this thread, it is not everyone that I meet who is a gun owner, but it is a (surprisingly) overwhelming majority.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Central Ohio.


Not for nuthin', but I think that's likely a lot more pertinent than the gun ownership part of the equation.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not for nuthin', but I think that's likely a lot more pertinent than the gun ownership part of the equation.


It honestly is not that bad other than the gun totin' issue...which is a lot of Ohio, not just the middle. My biggest complaint would be the weather...more specifically the lack of a real winter. Up until the last 10 years, C-bus was actually great b/c we had big town amenities without the big town problems (for the most part). That has changed as we have grown...but I would still take living here over most places in the country for cost of living, taxes, and things like that. Ex students of mine who live in the Boston area tell me their monthly RENT for a 1 bedroom place, and it is like 3 months of my mortgage on a 3 bedroom 2000' house. Crazy!!!

I do know that I am going to retire to a place very far away from people though. I just want a cabin in the woods, with acres for MTB trails and a pond that will freeze over for skating in the winter.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Granted, as many have misunderstood in this thread, it is not everyone that I meet who is a gun owner, but it is a (surprisingly) overwhelming majority.


Misunderstood? You even wrote "everyone" in all caps 



sXeXBMXer said:


> In my area, EVERYONE I know who is an "Armed citizen" is a sheltered, white, scared, usually racist or at least ignorant person who has never been exposed to "ethnicity" ever...and they ALL feel like liberals and "the brown skinned people" are out to get them.


Not to derail this very important thread but you (sXeXBMXer) seem like you should consider moving to somewhere like Montana or Wyoming. Cheap land, sparsely populated, mountains and lots of snow. What more could you want?


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I strongly agree in the right to bear arms. But also believe that it's one of the biggest responsibilities to hold. This means you find out the laws on your own by talking to LE in your area. Not on a forum where it can cause drama. Also IMHO open carry doesn't do anything good it just causes drama.


----------



## JamesPM (Apr 8, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> The one great truth in this thread is the guy who said that these threads "ALL become shitshows".
> 
> America is pretty evenly divided on guns. Stands to reason that this discussion forum would be too. Pretty mild so far though. I assume that the usual suspects are still getting warmed up.


Actually it isn't..

Fun facts :

Three percent of the population own half of the civilian guns in the US

Only 22-30% of Americans actually own a gun in the home

Dogs deter home invasions significantly better than owning a gun.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-are-white-men-stockpiling-guns/

Side note: A mossberg, not a yellow lab protects my home....
I'm a hypocrite


----------



## JamesPM (Apr 8, 2009)

jay76 said:


> If you think me posting to ask riders who carry to share their experiences and lessons learned is cocking up the forum with gun activism, that is YOUR problem!
> 
> How about some video?
> 
> ...


https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html

Kids and Guns: Shootings Now Third Leading Cause of Death for U.S. Children


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Noob biker with a gun. What could go wrong? :lol:






Also, when riding with turtles go easy. If they fall, they have a hard time righting themselves.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

^ I had a feeling that video would end up in this thread!


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

JamesPM said:


> Actually it isn't..
> 
> Fun facts :
> 
> ...


And yet...we just can't get gun control legislation passed. A long history of failure in that regard.

Anyway, I'm not talking about people who own guns, I'm talking about "_America is pretty evenly divided on guns_". If the end result of the statistics you present was significant, we would not only have gun control legislation, such legislation would be unnecessary because we would have already repealed the Second Amendment.


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> I strongly agree in the right to bear arms. But also believe that it's one of the biggest responsibilities to hold. This means you find out the laws on your own by talking to LE in your area. Not on a forum where it can cause drama. Also IMHO open carry doesn't do anything good it just causes drama.


The firearms laws for all the individual states are readily available from at least a dozen websites, not to mention individual state web sites and even as far as the actual state statutes. Furthermore, most states that require permits in order to carry also require a training course to do so. A major part of those training courses is education on the relevant firearms law for that state.

Most notably, a law enforcement officer with accurate in-depth knowledge of their state's firearms laws is not a safe universal assumption. Ignorance abounds on this subject, even among our local police officers.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Fleas said:


> Of all the issues with carrying a weapon while biking, the biggest issue is how to deploy it when you need it. If it's behind even one zipper, it's probably going to take too long to get to it.


What kind of threat could you face on a bicycle that would necessitate such immediate deployment of a gun? I understand on the street or in a dark parking lot, you might not get much warning, but what threats are there when you're riding a bicycle in the middle of nowhere? I guess I'm showing my bias here, because most of the time when I ride a mountain bike, I'm not carrying a gun at all.

I'm way more concerned about rattlesnakes than human beings on the mtb trail, so I guess that's waht I have in mind when I say "threat."


----------



## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

jay76 said:


> GEEZ - its called reading comprehension. NO ONE IS ASKING ABOUT CARRY LAWS ETC. If you have nothing worthwhile to say, please say nothing. Thank you kindly


I did not say anything about carry laws in particular, in your initial and followup post you said you wanted to know, among other things, about different holsters to carry with and that you were already an experienced gun carrier. This is where my comment about your experience was derived from. Basically if you carry frequently as you say, then you will be well versed on the different holsters out there plus all the accoutrements and laws that go along with it but most importantly you will already have a preference. So start there and if you need more, a gun forum is going to yield far more valuable information than this thread has without all the debate and insults. It is like me asking on a car forum what MTB tires I should buy because I drive said car.



jay76 said:


> So in your mind, good advice is tantamount to One Pivot and J.B Weld implying I have fictional scenarios of shooting rabid crackhead without even stopping my bike in my head... If that's not talking **** about people I don't know what is, SMH. Thanks for your (whatever that was) I guess.


The advice One Pivot gave that I was referring was that if you crashed, there is a possibility that you could crack your ribs. I do not think that is unreasonable advice. I guess his comment about the crackhead is what triggered you, I read it as tongue in cheek to demonstrate how much time you would have to react. JB Weld said to just go ahead and do it as these kinds of threads always end the same way. Again decent advice since the thread has trended the way he said it would.



jay76 said:


> At the end of the day this is NOT a post about the ethics of carrying because like it or nor anyone who qualifies has the right to do so.
> 
> This post is about those who DO carry to share their experiences with LEO, logistics of carrying ON A BIKE, etc...
> 
> Also I welcome the respectful comments of those who are opposed to carrying, but I would like to hear from those folks, what alternatives they perceive to be better. Thanks


First, I have not debated the ethics of either carrying or not carrying with you so this is irrelevant. Secondly, as you noted, you welcomed dissenting voices with alternatives and I think you got that with some folks suggesting why carry in the first place. You cannot pick and choose what message is going to come your way.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I open carry while pedaling, sometime the beer spills everywhere. Cans only, glass? Well thats just cray, cray. One handed riding usually, the bar holder tend to spill it too. Then there's the which beer hand vs what brake. Wait what....


----------



## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

twodownzero said:


> What kind of threat could you face on a bicycle that would necessitate such immediate deployment of a gun? I understand on the street or in a dark parking lot, you might not get much warning, but what threats are there when you're riding a bicycle in the middle of nowhere?
> I."


In my neck of the wood, there are may not be many people, but there are bears and cougars.


----------



## Hops143 (Apr 27, 2018)

I find that bear spray works on the bears - a nice Chardonnay usually does the trick for the cougars.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

leeboh said:


> I open carry while pedaling, sometime the beer spills everywhere. Cans only, glass? Well thats just cray, cray. One handed riding usually, the bar holder tend to spill it too. Then there's the which beer hand vs what brake. Wait what....


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to leeboh again.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

blizzardpapa said:


> In my neck of the wood, there are may not be many people, but there are bears and cougars.


OP is worried about people, not wildlife. And during commuting, not trail riding.


----------



## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

chazpat said:


> OP is worried about people, not wildlife. And during commuting, not trail riding.


My comment wasn't directed to OP.. but if OP is worry about situations on while riding on the road, may be he should ask the folks on roadbikereview.com


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Cuyuna said:


> The firearms laws for all the individual states are readily available from at least a dozen websites, not to mention individual state web sites and even as far as the actual state statutes. Furthermore, most states that require permits in order to carry also require a training course to do so. A major part of those training courses is education on the relevant firearms law for that state.
> 
> Most notably, a law enforcement officer with accurate in-depth knowledge of their state's firearms laws is not a safe universal assumption. Ignorance abounds on this subject, even among our local police officers.


You're correct about LE. I still stand asking a bunch of stranger on a mountain biking fourm isnt the most responsible thing to do.


----------



## JamesPM (Apr 8, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> And yet...we just can't get gun control legislation passed. A long history of failure in that regard.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not talking about people who own guns, I'm talking about "_America is pretty evenly divided on guns_". If the end result of the statistics you present was significant, we would not only have gun control legislation, such legislation would be unnecessary because we would have already repealed the Second Amendment.


Our senators and representative don't serve the american people, they serve lobbyists...

Take this quiz, see how you do...

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/guns-parkland-polling-quiz/


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Hops143 said:


> I find that bear spray works on the bears - a nice Chardonnay usually does the trick for the cougars.


Yeah, except a 1.5L bottle of Yellow Tail isn't exactly "nice Chardonnay".


----------



## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

WHALENARD said:


> Yeah, except a 1.5L bottle of Yellow Tail isn't exactly "nice Chardonnay".


It's 2018, they prefer rosé.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> Yeah, except a 1.5L bottle of Yellow Tail isn't exactly "nice Chardonnay".


C'mon, no need to spend a lot on cougars. That Yellow Tail might even be too fancy.


----------



## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Happiness Is a warm gun ya know


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

chazpat said:


> ^ I had a feeling that video would end up in this thread!


I don't understand how it didn't happen sooner. The parallels are uncanny.



chazpat said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to leeboh again.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to leeboh again.


----------



## miamic70 (Feb 26, 2008)

Open carry not legal in FL yet except when hunting or fishing and biking with a fishing rod to be legal is a royal PITA. That said I have been CCW holder since 1987 and carry at all times for protection from both 4 legged as well as the 2 legged vermin. For biking I’m usually limited to something like a Glock 43 usually in a pouch on my top tube or in side pocket of my camelbak. However, if OC was legal or if I rode where larger predators were an issue then on a bike I think a chest rig would be most practical and comfortable. 

As for being politically correct or offensive to anyone my only concern would be is it legal, is weapon secured and how comfortable and quickly can I deploy my weapon if needed. If it happens to piss off or offend SJW, snowflakes then that’s just a bonus.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

miamic70 said:


> Open carry not legal in FL yet except when hunting or fishing and biking with a fishing rod to be legal is a royal PITA.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077L664D...t=&hvlocphy=9004514&hvtargid=pla-511747734647

Just need this.


----------



## miamic70 (Feb 26, 2008)

Ha, ha man I can’t believe those are still around. Damn, $44, used to be $19.95 Ron is getting greedy 😕


----------



## jay76 (Jun 8, 2018)

SJW Cucks rejoice, you have officially killed this thread as you do with all things productive- kudos!

However I did learn about a few good products from my fellow braggadocious over-zealous gun-slinging wild crackhead zombie killing 'murricans, and got a good suggestion about testing various deployment strategies, so as the OP my mission is accomplished.

*MESSAGE FROM OP TO ALL WOULD BE READERS, BE WARNED!

THIS THREAD WILL WASTE YOUR TIME AS IT HAS MINE.

IT STARTED OFF FACTUAL BUT QUICKLY DESCENDED IN THE P.C. ABYSS OF FEELINGS AND IS NOW OFFICIALLY DEAD!*


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

NYrr496 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077L664D...t=&hvlocphy=9004514&hvtargid=pla-511747734647
> 
> Just need this.


Or you can get it on Amazon with 2 bonus lurers for $12 less. Yes, still with free Prime shipping:

https://www.amazon.com/Ronco-PF1001...rd_wg=5zXT7&psc=1&refRID=DE2PY355JD7359MT698Q

wait, what?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

jay76 said:


> SJW Cucks rejoice, you have officially killed this thread as you do with all things productive- kudos!
> 
> However I did learn about a few good products from my fellow braggadocious over-zealous gun-slinging wild crackhead zombie killing 'murricans, and got a good suggestion about testing various deployment strategies, so as the OP my mission is accomplished.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the internet.


----------



## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

jay76 said:


> SJW Cucks rejoice, you have officially killed this thread as you do with all things productive- kudos!
> 
> However I did learn about a few good products from my fellow braggadocious over-zealous gun-slinging wild crackhead zombie killing 'murricans, and got a good suggestion about testing various deployment strategies, so as the OP my mission is accomplished.
> 
> ...


You were warned that it will become a shitshow


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

blizzardpapa said:


> You were warned that it will become a shitshow


Sadly, only one of many on MTBR. I shudder to think how this thread might have gone if he had been posting about carrying a firearm on his E-MTB. Especially if he was using flat pedals instead of clipless and didn't want to ride tubeless.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Sadly, only one of many on MTBR. I shudder to think how this thread might have gone if he had been posting about carrying a firearm on his E-MTB. Especially if he was using flat pedals instead of clipless and didn't want to ride tubeless.


And no dropper post!

Holy **** are some people oversensitive.


----------



## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> OP is worried about people, not wildlife.


threads like this one make me worry about people too

to the OP, this solves your "carry" problem


----------



## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

cmg71 said:


> threads like this one make me worry about people too
> 
> to the OP, this solves your "carry" problem


The wheels don't match.


----------



## weeksy950 (Jan 11, 2012)

jay76 said:


> 7. Lastly, why not??


I just find it incomprehensible that there's a world in which we live where you need to carry a gun for a MTB ride, maybe that's because i live in the UK where we don't have guns, but still... .it's just something i can't even begin to get my head around.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

weeksy950 said:


> I just find it incomprehensible that there's a world in which we live where you need to carry a gun for a MTB ride, maybe that's because i live in the UK where we don't have guns, but still... .it's just something i can't even begin to get my head around.


I know, right? Understanding other cultures can be very difficult. I can't get my head around living in a monarchy, even a figurehead monarchy.

Different cultures do have different approaches to personal liberty.


----------



## weeksy950 (Jan 11, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> I know, right? Understanding other cultures can be very difficult. I can't get my head around living in a monarchy, even a figurehead monarchy.


LOL you'd be amazed how little the Monarchy affects 99% of the population, it's not like they make any decisions that matter etc.

Is there realistically though a time when people have needed to use a gun out on the ride ? Do people regularly get mugged for their bikes ? I get that some places are less nice than others, but are people really going to kill you for a pushbike ?

Out of all the people who do carry, how many times have you ever needed to use it on a MTB ride ?


----------



## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

I pack a 9MM Kurz in my pack with a few extra clips. It's there if I need it. No need to brandish my firearm and freak people out. Not worried about wildlife...just miscreants. :crazy:


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## RobLyman (May 8, 2006)

*Why carry?*

I don't always carry. But when I do, I carry in my camel back. It's not the optimal place, but 1) I wear a chest heart rate monitor and 2) I sweat a lot. So a chest holster, while more convenient, has its draw backs for me.

As to why I carry, there are several reasons. There are bear, panthers, and coyote/dog/wolf hybrids running around where I ride. No...the hybrid thing isn't science fiction. These things look like large coyotes..about 60-80 lbs. I've seen them and their tracks while riding and watched a few with the FLIR in my helicopter.

Then there are the two legged threats. It's a bit unnerving to be 2-3 miles from the nearest trailhead and see someone who looks too out of place. Imagine someone wearing a medium to heavy jacket, several shirts, and long pants walking way out in the woods when it is 90+ degrees with Florida humidity? OR.. wearing jeans, wife-beater sleeveless T-shirt, long white socks and FLIP FLOPS...again...miles from the nearest trail head? They are certainly not dressed for hiking, running, walking, or other outdoor activity. There is in legal camping in the area. Before thinking I am judgmental about clothing, odd things happen out there.2 men arrested in meth lab raid.

Then there is the guy I saw last month about 1/10th of a mile down the fire road, who started walking faster when he saw me. As I got closer, he disappeared into the woods. Creepy.

When I see weird things, I don't stop and draw, looking/waiting for action. I keep riding and put distance between myself and the odd individual. I hope I never have to take my weapon from my pack.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

jay76 said:


> SJW Cucks rejoice, you have officially killed this thread as you do with all things productive- kudos!
> 
> However I did learn about a few good products from my fellow braggadocious over-zealous gun-slinging wild crackhead zombie killing 'murricans, and got a good suggestion about testing various deployment strategies, so as the OP my mission is accomplished.
> 
> ...


I'm not in either camp on this issue - a search on "cougar" brought me here - but part of the problem is your approach.

Yep - there have been some wild anti-gun posts, but it seems to be mostly from one person. People can typically weed out over-zealous responses on their own for either side of a debate.

Conversely, I think a gun shop owner posted here quite nicely. Cuyuna has been rather witty IMO. Some reasonable posts on both sides, and some humor. I learned about holsters, turtles, and wine in a single thread. I know what to buy my nephew from Amazon now. All wins.

Then I see your post: insults, caps, bold, color.

You're not helping yourself.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

weeksy950 said:


> LOL you'd be amazed how little the Monarchy affects 99% of the population, it's not like they make any decisions that matter etc.
> 
> Is there realistically though a time when people have needed to use a gun out on the ride ? Do people regularly get mugged for their bikes ? I get that some places are less nice than others, but are people really going to kill you for a pushbike ?
> 
> Out of all the people who do carry, how many times have you ever needed to use it on a MTB ride ?


Nah. I'm not aware of any incidents of a self-defense shooting on mountain bike trails...certainly not around here. I don't think I've actually carried a gun while mountain biking, although I do occasionally while road biking. Danger from road rage is going to be more common than such danger while mountain biking, although maybe carrying a gun would have made a difference to Tim Watkins and saved his life. On the road, life-threatening danger from enraged idiot drivers certainly isn't common but it does happen, or so I read. I've never seen it either biking or driving. The necessity of carrying a gun overall in the US? I don't know because America is YUGE and has wildly varying cultures from place to place, region to region. It would be hard to understand or judge the foibles of American culture, regionally variable as it is, from within a homogeneous country, like England, that is the size of Oregon and has 1/5th the population of the USA.

I have a relatively good understanding of biking and self-defense only in my little corner of the US and I have little or no idea about the danger in New England, or Texas, or West Virginia, or Louisiana, and certainly not California, so I don't judge those who decide to carry a gun to mitigate their risk wherever they are, low as it likely is.

The natural right of self-defense, as it was codified in English Common Law for centuries, played a huge role in the concepts and documents that effected the separation of the US from England. It's not only part of US culture, it's woven into our founding document. England, Europe in general, has taken the approach in recent decades that personal liberty takes a back seat to public safety, which I'm sure makes the American concept all the more puzzling to them. In the US, the Constitution was designed to forestall that circumstance. The American Founding fathers deemed the right to keep and bear arms to be so important that it was written as the 2nd amendment, only behind the right of free speech/religion/press. James Madison deemed the 2nd amendment as the one that assured the rest of the Bill of Rights. For better or for worse, it is what it is, at least so far.

I'm aware of the irrelevance of the British monarchy, which makes it all the more puzzling, I guess. OTOH, there were MANY Americans raptly glued to the TV for Harry and what's-her-name's wedding, so...go figure.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

The CDC studies commissioned by Obama in 2013 found that guns are used between 2 to 10 times more often to STOP crimes than to commit crimes in the USA.

so there.

I strongly encourage open carry on the mountain bike trail. You will find that the reasons the naysayers come up with are smoke and mirrors, much like the opponents of civilian carry in Texas in the late 90s were saying there would be "Blood on the streets" and "Every confrontation would turn into the wild west!". None of that materialized, and now 20 years later I haven't heard of a single one of those chicken littles make a public statement to own that error.

I open carry all the time when riding. I stop at restaurants and coffee shops when riding in the city. Never had any problems. Nobody cares. 

People can tell you're just out there recreating. It's apparent to everyone that the guy in matching gear on the expensive bike is not out to hurt anyone.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Cuyuna said:


> And yet...we just can't get gun control legislation passed. A long history of failure in that regard.


One reason is because people who study the effectiveness of gun control legislation for a living, yes even liberals, conclude that it is pointless and ineffective.

Example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e7e6c738b48f


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

If I was bikepacking in grizzly territory like AK or Wyoming I could see it. GA? lol. Assuming your trails are in a neighborhood that doesn't have one of the top murder rates in the country.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

kitejumping said:


> If I was bikepacking in grizzly territory like AK or Wyoming I could see it. GA? lol. Assuming your trails are in a neighborhood that doesn't have one of the top murder rates in the country.


Not sure about GA, but I'm in Northern Nevada and I pack.... Black bears, cats and rattlers

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

seal13il said:


> Not sure about GA, but I'm in Northern Nevada and I pack.... Black bears, cats and rattlers
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Black bears are just like giant raccoons. I've seen them on trails several times, they just bumble off. Moose and really big cats on the other hand, got to watch out for them.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

twodownzero said:


> What kind of threat could you face on a bicycle that would necessitate such immediate deployment of a gun? I understand on the street or in a dark parking lot, you might not get much warning, but what threats are there when you're riding a bicycle in the middle of nowhere? I guess I'm showing my bias here, because most of the time when I ride a mountain bike, I'm not carrying a gun at all.
> 
> I'm way more concerned about rattlesnakes than human beings on the mtb trail, so I guess that's waht I have in mind when I say "threat."


Two words: Neck tats. https://snowbrains.com/2-mountain-b...h-national-forest-nc-manhunt-suspect-ongoing/


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## miamic70 (Feb 26, 2008)

I still can’t get my head around how British Emipire has crumbled and what sheep it’s citizens have become. So, different strokes I guess.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

miamic70 said:


> I still can't get my head around how British Emipire has crumbled and what sheep it's citizens have become. So, different strokes I guess.


I love how you're attempting to denigrate several countries whose combined murder rate is less than 1/4 that of the US.

...and calling them sheep.

Are you saying that they need to step up their game?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

kitejumping said:


> Black bears are just like giant raccoons. I've seen them on trails several times, they just bumble off. Moose and really big cats on the other hand, got to watch out for them.


I like your black bear theory.... Wonder what the female who was killed by one up here in Tahoe last year would have said about it... Or the mama bear I happened to be right between her and her two cubs two weeks ago...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

miamic70 said:


> I still can't get my head around how British Emipire has crumbled and what sheep it's citizens have become. So, different strokes I guess.


now thats funny,
sort of like stereotyping you 'mericans as gun toting hillbilly ******** .............oh...wait.....


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

okay


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Failure to stop after several center of mass hits require an Immediate double tap to the head.
Police tactics.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

tealy said:


> OP, if you're so threatened by the world that you feel you always need protection, why not carry mace or bear spray which is probably way more effective and non-lethal.
> 
> If you're so afraid of dying, don't you realize that that gun itself has a WAY higher chance of killing you than all the threats you're worried about combined.


I question the truth of your statement. Cite?

Counter Argument with support from CDC studies commissioned by the Obama administration:
*
Firearm use is safer than other methods of self protection. *

"Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies." (Chapter 3 pg 15

Studies on whether the keeping of a gun affected the net rate of injury were inconclusive. (Chapter 3 pg 16)

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I don’t get open carry. 

It’s like saying, “Oh! Oh! Kill me first! Over here! Me!”. 

That said, if you do decide to OC, please get licensed as applicable, and trained. Most people I see on YouTube are going to die if/when things go south. 

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

seal13il said:


> Not sure about GA, but I'm in Northern Nevada and I pack.... Black bears, cats and rattlers


You gotta be quick on the draw with them buzzworms, they are surly and will come at you out of nowhere. If one is up on a hill it will grab it's tail and roll down after you at high speed. I recommend a high caliber semi-automatic.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> Nobody cares.


How do you know that?


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Happiness Is a belt fed weapon


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Somebody's been watching too many Jason Bourne movies.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Schulze said:


> One reason is because people who study the effectiveness of gun control legislation for a living, yes even liberals, conclude that it is pointless and ineffective.
> 
> Example:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e7e6c738b48f


I agree that people who actually sit down and apply rational thought to the tenets of the gun control agenda do realize that it's pointless because it does nothing to address the problem. Those laws only affect the law- abiding citizens. The problem however is that for the majority of the liberal contingent, it's entirely an emotional issue. "Guns are scary, I don't like them, so let's make them illegal". I have yet to see any proposal from the Left Wing that makes any sense in terms of its ability to actually keep crazy people from killing others.

If you're inclined to conspiracy at all, one can also view it from the standpoint of the fear by The Liberals that it would be hard for one segment of the population (or government) to impose their political will on the other segment if that segment is armed. In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all the privately held guns. In the USA, there is increasingly the liberal fear that "the others" might one day follow the advice of the Founding Fathers that it is not only the _right_, but the DUTY of the people to throw off that government. That would be easier to prevent if first they are disarmed.

_That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government ......it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. - _

If one reads Madison in the Federalist Papers, you'll see that the 2nd Amendment was ALL about providing the people with the tools to be able to make that happen.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> I don't get open carry.
> 
> It's like saying, "Oh! Oh! Kill me first! Over here! Me!".
> 
> ...


Most states do not require to be "licensed" to open carry, as per "trained", that is a hard subject here in the US as most do not have a clue what small arms training is.... I am a constitutionalist yet do have my reservations when it comes to Joe shmow and his or hers skill levels when it comes to boom sticks.... (and FYI, most LE out there is not much better).... I believe it's a caltural thing..... And a regulatory issue....

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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Osco said:


> Yeah I don't do it very often, I prefer conceiled but I think the Idea behind It Is most would be criminals do not want confrontation, they want those unarmed sheep I spoke of.
> 
> They are simple opportunistic hunters, they would think If they see one gun there will be others.
> 
> ...


That theory against "open carry" is so old..... And with no stats to back it up.... Personally, I do not open carry unless in the range or on duty /contract work etc, what I do know is the "predator mentality", and it's very simple..... Predators avoid conflict where their plans can go sideways.... Therefore when a predator sees a firearm they are more than likely to go elsewhere...... Basic animal planet concept.... Yet to see even a lion go into a snake den..... Or a great white into a pod of dolphins.....

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> I agree that people who actually sit down and apply rational thought to the tenets of the gun control agenda do realize that it's pointless because it does nothing to address the problem. Those laws only affect the law- abiding citizens. The problem however is that for the majority of the liberal contingent, it's entirely an emotional issue. "Guns are scary, I don't like them, so let's make them illegal". I have yet to see any proposal from the Left Wing that makes any sense in terms of its ability to actually keep crazy people from killing others.
> 
> If you're inclined to conspiracy at all, one can also view it from the standpoint of the fear by The Liberals that it would be hard for one segment of the population (or government) to impose their political will on the other segment if that segment is armed. In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all the privately held guns. In the USA, there is increasingly the liberal fear that "the others" might one day follow the advice of the Founding Fathers that it is not only the _right_, but the DUTY of the people to throw off that government. That would be easier to prevent if first they are disarmed.


FFS. No, the Nazis did not ever collect, or even attempt to collect, all of the privately held guns.

They only attempted to collect HANDGUNS. Not rifles, shotguns, or the ammunition for them. This is a well known historical fact that some people are too lazy to research. I'm not sure why people keep perpetuating this myth, but, please stop spreading it.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Schulze said:


> I question the truth of your statement. Cite?
> 
> Counter Argument with support from CDC studies commissioned by the Obama administration:
> *
> ...


Thanks for providing that information, Schulze. I would like to provide your quote with more context, not arguing against you but rather showing that more research is needed; and it touches on what tealy said. I am highlighting to provide skimmers a way to hit the high points; I would encourage anyone to go to the source and read.

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was "used" by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public-concealed or open carry-may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.

If anyone doesn't know why we don't have better information from research, we can thank our wonderful politicians:


There are many legal and responsible uses for guns; an individual's right to own and possess guns was established in the U.S. Constitution and affirmed in the 2008 and 2010 Supreme Court rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller15 and McDonald v. City of Chicago.16 However, the scarcity of research on firearm-related violence limits policy makers' ability to propose evidence-based policies that reduce injuries and deaths and maximize safety while recognizing Second Amendment rights. Since the 1960s, a number of state and federal laws and regulations have been enacted that restrict government's ability to collect and share information about gun sales, ownership, and possession, which has limited data collection and collation relevant to firearm violence prevention research. Among these are the amendments to the Gun Control Act of 1968,17 which prohibits the federal government from establishing an electronic database of the names of gun purchasers and requires gun dealers to conduct annual inventories of their firearms.

In addition to the restrictions on certain kinds of data collection, congressional action in 1996 effectively halted all firearm-related injury research at the CDC by prohibiting the use of federal funding "to advocate or promote gun control."18 In 2011, Congress enacted similar restrictions affecting the entire U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.19 The net result was an overall reduction in firearm violence research (Kellermann and Rivara, 2013). As a result, the past 20 years have witnessed diminished progress in understanding the causes and effects of firearm violence.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> FFS. No, the Nazis did not ever collect, or even attempt to collect, all of the privately held guns.
> 
> They only attempted to collect HANDGUNS. Not rifles, shotguns, or the ammunition for them. This is a well known historical fact that some people are too lazy to research. I'm not sure why people keep perpetuating this myth, but, please stop spreading it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mm mm..... Really?........ Are you referring to the 1938 "weapons act"? The one that allowed all NSDAP members to carry and band all jews from owning, manufacturing or dealing in firearms and ammunition?

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> FFS. No, the Nazis did not ever collect, or even attempt to collect, all of the privately held guns.
> 
> They only attempted to collect HANDGUNS. Not rifles, shotguns, or the ammunition for them. This is a well known historical fact that some people are too lazy to research. I'm not sure why people keep perpetuating this myth, but, please stop spreading it.


OK. To be more precise, the Nazis, in 1938, made it illegal for Jews and "other enemies of the state" to possess guns (_any_ kind of gun), truncheons, or "stabbing weapons" and instituted systematic raids to collect them from those declared "enemies".

"Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons." 1938 edict by the Ministery of the Interior.


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## Buster (Jan 4, 2004)

*.*

...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> If you're inclined to conspiracy at all, one can also view it from the standpoint of the fear by The Liberals that it would be hard for one segment of the population (or government) to impose their political will on the other segment if that segment is armed. In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all the privately held guns. In the USA, there is increasingly the liberal fear that "the others" might one day follow the advice of the Founding Fathers that it is not only the _right_, but the DUTY of the people to throw off that government. That would be easier to prevent if first they are disarmed.
> 
> _That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government ......it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. - _
> 
> If one reads Madison in the Federalist Papers, you'll see that the 2nd Amendment was ALL about providing the people with the tools to be able to make that happen.


That may have been the case when the Redcoats marched in straight lines with muskets that took a minute to load but I'm not sure how your pea-shooter is going to stack up against chemical weapons, laser guided missiles, armed drones, tanks, etc. No offense btw, just the way I see it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> OK. To be more precise, the Nazis, in 1938, made it illegal for Jews and "other enemies of the state" to possess guns, truncheons, or stabbing weapons and instituted systematic raids to collect themk from those enemies.
> 
> "Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons." 1938 edict by the Ministery of the Interior.


And Jewish gun ownership was quite small before that. A very small minority of a small minority.

And, no, they didn't collect all of the rifles and shotguns. Ironically, the Nazis actually made it significantly easier to own guns than it had been during the later Weimar years.

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

seal13il said:


> Most states do not require to be "licensed" to open carry, as per "trained", that is a hard subject here in the US as most do not have a clue what small arms training is.... I am a constitutionalist yet do have my reservations when it comes to Joe shmow and his or hers skill levels when it comes to boom sticks.... (and FYI, most LE out there is not much better).... I believe it's a caltural thing..... And a regulatory issue....


Personally, I agree. There are people who just get a gun and then believe that they are now safe from attack. And in most states that require a carry permit (13 states require NO permit), the associated training is pretty much a joke relative to even the basics of armed self-defense. I think it's stupid and irresponsible to carry a gun without being trained how to use it safely and effectively in self-defense. As a Constitutionalist however, I can't disagree that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> And Jewish gun ownership was quite small before that. A very small minority of a small minority.
> 
> And, no, they didn't collect all of the rifles and shotguns. Ironically, the Nazis actually made it significantly easier to own guns than it had been during the later Weimar years.


Not for Jews, gypsies and other "enemies". It was declared outright illegal for them to possess ANY weapon, rifles and shotguns included, and Ellerman, the Minister of the Interior began raids to collect them starting in 1938


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> And Jewish gun ownership was quite small before that. A very small minority of a small minority.
> 
> And, no, they didn't collect all of the rifles and shotguns. Ironically, the Nazis actually made it significantly easier to own guns than it had been during the later Weimar years.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


so was the black prior to the civil war...your point is? it is ok to restrict as long as it is a minority? im confused ........


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

I support the right to safely, legally and thoughtfully bear arms and as of yet don’t carry anywhere, however, I’ve been seriously considering carrying in the woods and on water. Not because of wildlife. Not because of thieves, thugs and gangsters, they don’t go miles into the forests or out on lakes and rivers. But because I regularly come across people who are clearly angry with my lawful use of designated public lands and waterways. I know that there are bikers who carelessly blast past others with little regard. I’m not one of those but they don’t know that. There are hikers, walker, equestrians, hunters and anglers who hate bikers, kayakers and rowers. Be it out of ignorance, prejudice, politics or real experience they don’t want us in the woods or on the water. 

We’ve had fishermen try to snag us with their hooks. They’ve tried to run us down with their boats. They almost never yield the right of way. We row straight and steady for miles at a time clearly giving us the right of way over a trolling fisherman almost continually changing course.

I’ve had hunters complain about us chasing away game when I see game almost every ride. I get less than 20 feet from deer, looking eye to eye, I don’t know which of us is more startled. I try not to go on game lands during hunting season but sometimes loose track of the schedule. I’ve seen one hunter try to make their point by setting up right at the trail head on a busy riding day.

Knowing the disrespect and anger of others I’ve adapted some simple procedures. Slow down or stop to allow the dog walkers to gather themselves and dog. Say hello, comment on the dog, let it sniff me. I ask the equestrian how shall I pass? I don’t want to get kicked. I chat up the fishermen and since I know where nice fish are regularly caught I direct them to those spots. I point out game to the hunters then ride the other way. Do something else on the first day of hunting or fishing.

Playing and behaving nicely might not stop someone from disrespecting my rights and privileges as a taxpaying free American citizen to properly use public lands.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I had a private trail at my previous home and would carry while riding. I love dogs (have 2), but my neighbors pitbull got out once and got between me and the door of my house. It was growling, baring its teeth, and lunging every time I moved. I was able to back away from my house and get to my garage, but I felt so helpless at that moment and rarely went outside unarmed after that encounter. I also had venomous snakes and other potential needs, so I needed something I could quickly throw on when going out to do yard work or ride my trail.

This is what I used. Easy and quick access and due to the shape of the front panel and pull tab, and it doesn't look like it's something for a gun.

https://www.amazon.com/5-11-Tactica...UTF8&qid=1529244430&sr=8-8&keywords=gun+fanny

I've also used the LR style camelbaks. The little side pockets are easy to access and big enough for a .38.

https://www.camelbak.com/en/packs/m..._LR_15?color=747f199477e3464eba7b5c35a5829f46


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> That may have been the case when the Redcoats marched in straight lines with muskets that took a minute to load but I'm not sure how your pea-shooter is going to stack up against chemical weapons, laser guided missiles, armed drones, tanks, etc. No offense btw, just the way I see it.


Yeah, in the end, if push comes to shove, when the National Guard comes to engage your little neighborhood militia of Constitutionalists, you're pretty much ****ed.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Not for Jews, gypsies and other "enemies". It was declared outright illegal for them to possess ANY weapon, rifles and shotguns included, and Ellerman, the Minister of the Interior began raids to collect them starting in 1938


No, really.

I'd suggest you do some reading. Read the Wiki article, and the books cited in it. The Weimar Republic made gun ownership more or less non-existent among the general population, regardless of ethnicity, race, religion or other social traits. The Nazis then made it easier to get weapons for a period of a couple of months. Then made it illegal to own them for Jews, Gypsies, etc.

But, just like gun confiscation in America, it's something that is simply impossible. As you and others have suggested, gun control laws don't keep people who can't legally own them from getting them.

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> No, really.
> 
> I'd suggest you do some reading. Read the Wiki article, and the books cited in it. The Weimar Republic made gun ownership more or less non-existent among the general population, regardless of ethnicity, race, religion or other social traits. The Nazis then made it easier to get weapons for a period of a couple of months. Then made it illegal to own them for Jews, Gypsies, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes. As I said. 1938. Jews. In the years prior, I agree that it's true that firearms regulations were loosened. Right up until they weren't, for that particular set of minorities, at which point it became illegal for them and confiscation began.

And yes. Gun confiscation in America would be impossible, and yes, the only people who would obey gun control laws are the law abiding citizens. So, we make gun possession illegal and all we've done is make it harder for those citizens to defend themselves from armed criminals.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

seal13il said:


> so was the black prior to the civil war...your point is? it is ok to restrict as long as it is a minority? im confused ........


I'm saying that half-assed gun confiscation, in a country where guns were illegal before the Nazis came to power, targeting a subset of the population less likely to own guns than others, did not facilitate the Holocaust. It was a symptom of the overall marginalization of many minority groups, and the public's acceptance of it.

I'm saying that pointing to Nazi Germany and using it as an example for anything re: gun control just reeks of ignorance. Plenty of Jewish scholars have written books on the issue, and many of them dismiss Nazi gun control as a very, very small factor in the atrocities that happened there.

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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> How do you know that?


Nobody cares....enough to hassle me.

A few people start conversations to talk guns, usually people who are also carrying.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Yes. As I said. 1938. Jews. In the years prior, I agree that it's true that firearms regulations were loosened. Right up until they weren't, for that particular set of minorities, at which point it became illegal for them and confiscation began.
> 
> And yes. Gun confiscation in America would be impossible, and yes, the only people who would obey gun control laws are the law abiding citizens. So, we make gun possession illegal and all we've done is make it harder for those citizens to defend themselves from armed criminals.


I'm simply pointing out that in one of your posts on this topic, you said, "In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all of the privately held guns."

Which contains not one, but two, falsehoods.

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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> Yeah, in the end, if push comes to shove, when the National Guard comes to engage your little neighborhood militia of Constitutionalists, you're pretty much ****ed.


The hope is that the younger generation, rather nasty girl or active will remember the oath they and I took.....

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> Nobody cares....enough to hassle me.
> 
> A few people start conversations to talk guns, usually people who are also carrying.


So in other words people do care.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

seal13il said:


> The hope is that the younger generation, rather nasty girl or active will remember the oath they and I took.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Unfortunately, most service members can't tell you how many Amendments there are in the Constitution. Or rattle off a summary of the bill of rights. Or anything else that pertains to the oath they took, for that matter.

I've seen service members argue that the media needs to be punished for their reporting on the current POTUS. Think about that: a person sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, who doesn't understand the first amendment.

A guy I know is an Oathkeeper. Got the bumper sticker and everything. Doesn't know anything about the Constitution, but he's totally ready to "defend" what he's been spoon fed. Doesn't agree with equal protection under the law, wants to lock up certain portions of the media, thinks people should be able to be POTUS for life.

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I'm simply pointing out that in one of your posts on this topic, you said, "In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all of the privately held guns."
> 
> Which contains not one, but two, falsehoods.


Oh FFS. OK. Two falsehoods, whatever. Are you refuting the basic argument that it's good tactics to disarm your political enemies in your quest for imposing your oppressive political agenda, or is it just an exercise in Internet Policing?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> So in other words people do care.


The original post was about being hassled, either by joe blow or law enforcement. In order to facilitate a civil dialogue, it's important to view other viewpoints in the context in which they are given.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'm simply pointing out that in one of your posts on this topic, you said, "In Nazi Germany, the first thing they did to facilitate their control of the population was collect all of the privately held guns."
> 
> Which contains not one, but two, falsehoods.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Regardless of the example given, I would like to know if there ever was a time in history where it was a good idea for the peasants to give up their weaponry. I can't think of one though.

In the current UK police state, the draconian weapons laws have had no apparent effect on the intentional homicide rate (people are still murdered by knives, bricks, guns, and trucks), while in the USA, while firearms have proliferated, it has been cut down by half since the 1970s. In the USA, there is a certain inner city population that seems determined to make a culture of violence; when this small population is removed from the stats, the USA rate is cut in half.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Schulze said:


> Regardless of the example given, I would like to know if there ever was a time in history where it was a good idea for the peasants to give up their weaponry. I can't think of one though.


Yes, exactly.

Adolf Hitler is quoted in the book Hitler's Table Talk, 1941-1944: Secret Conversations as saying:

_The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjugated races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjugated races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. 
_

In other words, as the quote that is often (rightly or wrongly) ascribed to Hitler: "To conquer a nation, you must first disarm its citizens".

Makes sense to me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Schulze said:


> In the current UK police state, the draconian weapons laws have had no apparent effect on the intentional homicide rate (people are still murdered by knives, bricks, guns, and trucks), while in the USA, while firearms have proliferated, it has been cut down by half since the 1970s. In the USA, there is a certain inner city population that seems determined to make a culture of violence; when this small population is removed from the stats, the USA rate is cut in half.


There seems to be a discrepancy between US intentional homicide rates and those in the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

If defending yourselves against your government is a priority you should possess the same technology as they do, same as when the constitution was written. Stock up on your chemical weapons and killer drones!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> If defending yourselves against your government is a priority you should possess the same technology as they do, same as when the constitution was written. Stock up on your chemical weapons and killer drones!


As you mentioned earlier, when the 2nd Amendment was written, parity with government weaponry was easier to achieve. Asymmetrical warfare then by citizen-soldiers wasn't nearly as asymmetrical as it would be now.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Guns, right this second, right now, are highly controlled in gernany. Yes, the place everyone likes to go nuts about and post nazi era stats on gun control. 

Somehow they're magically not being overrun by nazis despite having gun control. Just like the overwhelming majority of the developed world. 

Gun control is an emotional issue. The fact is that the majority of the world has strict gun control and gets along just fine like that, and has for a very long time now. We're so damn scared of our own shadows here in the US, we need guns by our sides at all times, loaded and ready to go!

We have a high level of violence in the US because we have a culture of violence. Its too late now, removing the guns won't change the culture overnight. Making it worse isnt too helpful either though.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Put the gun Issues aside boyz and contemplate far more Important Issues for Instance,

Watch this video and then sit back and think about how close we are to loosing our way.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

One Pivot said:


> *We have a high level of violence in the US because* we have a culture of violence. Its too late now, removing the guns won't change the culture overnight. Making it worse isnt too helpful either though.


Ok, I'm going to ask you this in good faith: Compared to what?

Violent crimes have been on the decrease for thirty years.

In the list of world violent crime rates, the USA is unremarkable. When comparing demo to demo it is even more unremarkable.

Despite being the most heavily armed population in history with possibly a billion firearms in circulation.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Research Col. Grossman 

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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> If defending yourselves against your government is a priority you should possess the same technology as they do, same as when the constitution was written. Stock up on your chemical weapons and killer drones!


The very fact that the globalists are pushing for disarmament is reason enough for me to continue to support weapons proliferation among my fellow peasantry.

2 Million: Average number of people murdered by their own governments, per year, in the 20th century. And since "government" don't have any agency itself, that word could be replaced with "their fellow citizens" and be just as correct.

The holocaust gets a lot of play but the holodomor was worse in number and speed.

Read Solzhenitsyn.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

One Pivot said:


> Guns, right this second, right now, are highly controlled in gernany. Yes, the place everyone likes to go nuts about and post nazi era stats on gun control.
> 
> Somehow they're magically not being overrun by nazis despite having gun control. Just like the overwhelming majority of the developed world.
> 
> ...


They're just one recession away from electing another nut job to run that country. When times are good, people are complacent. It's not like revolutions happen when unemployment is low and the stock market is up.

Throughout history, the human condition has been tyranny and misery. Tradition is not a reason to return to that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

twodownzero said:


> They're just one recession away from electing another nut job to run that country.


Wait, what country?


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wait, what country?


Germany. Which is apparently known as "gernany" in the post above.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

twodownzero said:


> Germany. Which is apparently known as "gernany" in the post above.


I was joking, I live in the US and thought your post was more applicable here.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> I was joking, I live in the US and thought your post was more applicable here.


It does sort of apply here. We had a recession at the end of George Bush's presidency and we elected...well...let's just say we elected a guy who didn't fix the economy.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> It does sort of apply here. We had a recession at the end of George Bush's presidency and we elected...well...let's just say we elected a guy who didn't fix the economy.


See, we're both right.


----------



## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

how is all this political bs a mountain bike beginners corner topic?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Kolchak said:


> how is all this political bs a mountain bike beginners corner topic?


because it is 'murica, where everything falls back to scared people losing their guns...somehow, via the 2nd Amendment, our founding fathers believed that people need to have guns for mountain biking(?)


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

scycllerist said:


> I support the right to safely, legally and thoughtfully bear arms and as of yet don't carry anywhere, however, I've been seriously considering carrying in the woods and on water. Not because of wildlife. Not because of thieves, thugs and gangsters, they don't go miles into the forests or out on lakes and rivers. But because I regularly come across people who are clearly angry with my lawful use of designated public lands and waterways. I know that there are bikers who carelessly blast past others with little regard. I'm not one of those but they don't know that. There are hikers, walker, equestrians, hunters and anglers who hate bikers, kayakers and rowers. Be it out of ignorance, prejudice, politics or real experience they don't want us in the woods or on the water.
> 
> We've had fishermen try to snag us with their hooks. They've tried to run us down with their boats. They almost never yield the right of way. We row straight and steady for miles at a time clearly giving us the right of way over a trolling fisherman almost continually changing course.
> 
> ...


I have heard a good number of scary stories from kayakers; land owners who insist that their property extends out into the river (it doesn't) and threaten anyone passing through. I read a news report recently of a crazy land owner with a gun forcing kayakers out of their boats at gun point. I seem to recall he was eventually arrested.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

chazpat said:


> I have heard a good number of scary stories from kayakers; land owners who insist that their property extends out into the river (it doesn't) and threaten anyone passing through. I read a news report recently of a crazy land owner with a gun forcing kayakers out of their boats at gun point. I seem to recall he was eventually arrested.


wow...really? With a gun? No way...that doesn't happen for real...oh yeah, that is his "Constitutionally guaranteed right"...

I'll bet if he didn't have a gun, that would be a much different story/situation


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> wow...really? With a gun? No way...that doesn't happen for real...oh yeah, that is his "Constitutionally guaranteed right"...
> 
> I'll bet if he didn't have a gun, that would be a much different story/situation


He got 20 years.

https://www.miamiherald.com/article208415329.html


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> wow...really? With a gun? No way...that doesn't happen for real...oh yeah, that is his "Constitutionally guaranteed right"...


Your ignorance of the Constitution and relevant law is....mildly troubling.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

sXeXBMXer said:


> wow...really? With a gun? No way...that doesn't happen for real...oh yeah, that is his "Constitutionally guaranteed right"...
> 
> I'll bet if he didn't have a gun, that would be a much different story/situation


Hey Sunshine, welcome to planet Earth. On this planet, we have many advanced technologies. Any technology powerful enough to be useful can also be used as a weapon. We also have some 400 year old technology where pressure from deflagrating organic compounds is used to accelerate a chunk of metal out of a tube. It's safe to say this technology isn't going anywhere, both because of it's long history and the fact that all attempts to ban technology, always fail, wherever they are tried.

Have a nice day.


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## RobLyman (May 8, 2006)

seal13il said:


> The hope is that the younger generation, rather *nasty girl* or active will remember the oath they and I took.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Nasty Girl? Niiice.


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## scycllerist (Jul 31, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> wow...really? With a gun? No way...that doesn't happen for real...oh yeah, that is his "Constitutionally guaranteed right"...
> 
> I'll bet if he didn't have a gun, that would be a much different story/situation


I'll take that as sarcasm.

There have been reports of landowners having issues with rails to trails too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> because it is 'murica, where everything falls back to scared people losing their guns...somehow, via the 2nd Amendment, our founding fathers believed that people need to have guns for mountain biking(?)


Actually, these threads stay on topic until scared people lose their minds that someone has even MENTIONED a gun and then they start getting political (and personal) and drag everything down the usual shithole.

Maybe people could just let other people talk about what holster (or whatever) they wanted to use and go on with their own day? Seemingly impossible for the SJW crowd I guess.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Seemingly impossible for the SJW crowd I guess.


Also impossible for the SSH (sheeple & snowflake hater) crowd. Talking politics is what they do best.



Harold said:


> You're obviously new here and didn't search the forum for previous approaches to the topic. They ALL become shitshows.


4th post^ truth!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, these threads stay on topic until scared people lose their minds that someone has even MENTIONED a gun and then they start getting political (and personal) and drag everything down the usual shithole.
> 
> Maybe people could just let other people talk about what holster (or whatever) they wanted to use and go on with their own day? Seemingly impossible for the SJW crowd I guess.


Who is scared? Of what?

Also, I must say that it's a pretty sad bit of commentary on America when a) the phrase "Social Justice Warrior" even exists, and b) people use it in a derogatory way to describe people fighting and standing up for the rights of American citizens. I mean, the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868. The CRAs are all 50+ years old.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Who is scared? Of what?
> 
> Also, I must say that it's a pretty sad bit of commentary on America when a) the phrase "Social Justice Warrior" even exists, and b) people use it in a derogatory way to describe people fighting and standing up for the rights of American citizens. I mean, the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868. The CRAs are all 50+ years old.


Scared that someone may decide to legally carry a gun it appears.

I don't own any guns myself, but somehow manage not to lose my **** any time someone mentions them.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Scared that someone may decide to legally carry a gun it appears.
> 
> I don't own any guns myself, but somehow manage not to lose my **** any time someone mentions them.


Why do you think they are scared by it?

Suggesting that something is effectively useless, or less optimal than another solution doesn't suggest that they are scared. Pragmatic? Yes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Why do you think they are scared by it?
> 
> Suggesting that something is effectively useless, or less optimal than another solution doesn't suggest that they are scared. Pragmatic? Yes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some responses (relatively few IMO) fall into that realm.

Most are just the usual off-topic political bickering points we've all heard regurgitated ad nauseam.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

seal13il said:


> Not sure about GA, but I'm in Northern Nevada and I pack.... Black bears, cats and rattlers
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


I'm in Northern NV and don't.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Source? I don't remember anyone being killed by a bear in Tahoe last year...


seal13il said:


> I like your black bear theory.... Wonder what the female who was killed by one up here in Tahoe last year would have said about it... Or the mama bear I happened to be right between her and her two cubs two weeks ago...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

mahgnillig said:


> I'm in Northern NV and don't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


thats your choice .... same as to carry is my choice


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

mahgnillig said:


> Source? I don't remember anyone being killed by a bear in Tahoe last year...
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


I stand corrected, last year a bear charged a guy, woman was attacked back in 2014


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

seal13il said:


> thats your choice .... same as to carry is my choice


I'm at a loss as to how the conversation ever goes past this point.

Some people really, really suck at minding their own business.


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## TSleep (Aug 1, 2016)

I carry a Glock 20 on my chest when hiking, I suppose biking would be the same. Bear spray works great if the bear is downwind, otherwise you're both blind and pissed off. This is a touchy subject to a lot of people but here in Washington we just had two women atracked by a cougar and one was sadly killed. Sometimes a gun is the right tool. Better to have it and never need it than need it and not have it.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm at a loss as to how the conversation ever goes past this point.


Because irresponsible people kill and maim bystanders all to often. Out here people like to shoot guns across trails, across roads, and randomly into the woods as a matter of practice. I'm not exaggerating when I say I see this more often than people shooting into a backdrop.

I've had bullets come whizzing by my head mtbing in the Tillamook forests. When I screamed they were shooting across a trail naturally they rapidly fired several more shots before hopping in their car and speeding off. I know this is common in Capital Forest WA as well.

Last summer in the Yacult Burn in WA upon a shuttle retrieval I came upon 2 guys shooting across the road with rifles, no backdrop. I literally drive 10 feet within the line of fire and the guy continues to shoot. Finally he draws his rifle down, smiles, and waves me through. Same area another time parking lot atop Thrillium, car pulls up, guy gets out and decides it's a good idea to shoot right down the effing trail. A group of riders had literally just dropped in seconds before.

Believe it or not, despite not currently owning a gun, I'm very pro 2nd amendment. Anytime you have urban areas butting up against wilderness you're going have the least common denominator firing his weapon thinking there must be nobody else out here. For that and a litany of other reasons I think it irresponsible to promote yet more armed people in the woods on a mtbing forum.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I got hit in the chest by a drunk dude’s shotgun birdshot two weeks after coming back from AFG. Luckily I was wearing a thick coat and it was from far away. On my own rental property. By a person who apparently didn’t see the 750 sq ft cabin I was walking up to, or the two cars in the driveway.

I have plenty of other examples. I am not opposed to guns; I love guns. I’m opposed to drunk, high and/or stupid people operating them. Which there are way, way too many of these days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't see anything that leads me to assume the OP is a complete and total idiot.

Also pretty lucky to live somewhere that such idiocy is rare I guess.

Another good reason for me to stay in New England.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I'm opposed to drunk, high and/or stupid people operating them. Which there are way, way too many of these days.


Who isn't opposed to that? Even the NRA is opposed to that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Who isn't opposed to that? Even the NRA is opposed to that.


I've never seen the NRA take any stance on stupid people. Gotta keep those checks coming.

Of course, neither have the DNC or RNC.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I've never seen the NRA take any stance on stupid people. Gotta keep those checks coming.
> 
> Of course, neither have the DNC or RNC.


My suspicion is that the NRA is unwilling to define the category of "stupid people".


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cuyuna said:


> Who isn't opposed to that? Even the NRA is opposed to that.


Hm, I have strong doubts about that assertion.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I mean, the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868. The CRAs are all 50+ years old.


Do you realize how unpopular these political things were when passed?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> Do you realize how unpopular these political things were when passed?


Yep. Acts of courage that I doubt will ever be repeated.

God bless the people that voted for them. Putting their own political careers on the line for the greater good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Cuyuna said:


> Your ignorance of the Constitution and relevant law is....mildly troubling.


funny, I feel the same way about you...you will never convince me...ever, that guns are not the problem. So no point in responding to this answer. We will have to be satisfied that we live in 2 completely separate worlds.

That being said, I harbor no ill will against you, and would gladly help you out on the trail if you needed it, or would ride with you...though you are probably better and faster than me and would probably get bored...I am an still regaining strength from a long time off.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Harold said:


> Hm, I have strong doubts about that assertion.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


I have great doubts you are even aware of what the NRA have done or doing for local communities and schools around the country...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> My suspicion is that the NRA is unwilling to define the category of "stupid people".


Define stupid ppl? We have a society issue, a mental issue, I have yet to see a gun goes off on its on... There was always a human attached to it.... Same with a car accident.... DUI... Overdose etc.... It's the human, not the tool used....

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lol, you make some great assumptions about me.


seal13il said:


> I have great doubts you are even aware of what the NRA have done or doing for local communities and schools around the country...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Harold said:


> Lol, you make some great assumptions about me.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Assumptions make an ass of u and I.... But if you knew what the NRA actually does for local communities (the things that don't make the news), your statement would have been different..... So yes.... I am assuming

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm at a loss as to how the conversation ever goes past this point.
> 
> Some people really, really suck at minding their own business.


Some of the responses give it away - giving the gun itself agency, having a fear of technology, being proud of not being reasonable, etc....There's a good reason that gun control legislation is best passed during times of high emotion and has to be sold with non sequitors like "common sense". It doesn't stand up to reasonable examination.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Harold said:


> Hm, I have strong doubts about that assertion.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Of course you do.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

sXeXBMXer said:


> would ride with you...though you are probably better and faster than me and would probably get bored....


he could stop and randomly let off a few rounds while he's waiting for you


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Le Duke again'


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Yep. Acts of courage that I doubt will ever be repeated.
> God bless the people that voted for them. Putting their own political careers on the line for the greater good.


In the interest of being as values neutral about his as possible, I think you'll find the answer in just how politically divisive those two laws were when passed.

Obviously there have been profound changes to our country as a result of both of them, especially the former. But they weren't popular when passed and that they remain unpopular with some people should not be a surprise to you at all as a student of history. Right, wrong, or indifferent, you'd be hard pressed to find laws that pass without widespread popular support that don't remain unpopular, even over a century later.

Interestingly, if the rest of constitutional law history were kept in place, there would be no second amendment applied against the states, and certainly a less meaningful first amendment, without the modern fourteenth amendment doctrine.


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## Goshawk (Jun 20, 2018)

I think if you want to carry go for it. I know folks who have prevented crimes as bystanders using concealed carry guns. Unfortunately, there are some bad people, who have bad intentions. That's not paranoia, just the truth. They are few and far between, but they are out there.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Goshawk said:


> I think if you want to carry go for it. I know folks who have prevented crimes as bystanders using concealed carry guns. Unfortunately, there are some bad people, who have bad intentions. That's not paranoia, just the truth. They are few and far between, but they are out there.


Funnily enough, your post smacks of paranoia.......and thats the truth


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

https://www.king5.com/article/news/...rt-shooting-is-pastor-and-medic/281-565164739


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

cmg71 said:


> Funnily enough, your post smacks of paranoia.......and thats the truth


Are you from the United Kingdom, or perhaps some other similar European paradise?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

cmg71 said:


> Funnily enough, your post smacks of paranoia.......and thats the truth


Firearms are used between 2 and 10 times more often to stop crimes than to commit crimes in the USA. Technology might be scary to you, but it isn't going anywhere.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

cmg71 said:


> Funnily enough, your post smacks of paranoia.......and thats the truth


Are you being sarcastic?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> Are you from the United Kingdom, or perhaps some other similar European paradise?


Close and close, l hit the paradise double whammy 

Grew up in Australia, now living in Switzerland, where l would guess gun ownership per capita may be higher than the USA, just without the moronic views about guns and our 'rights'


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

cmg71 said:


> Close and close, l hit the paradise double whammy
> 
> Grew up in Australia, now living in Switzerland, where l would guess gun ownership per capita may be higher than the USA, just without the moronic views about guns and our 'rights'


Well... If it wasn't for the "moronic" ideology of the United States constitution... You my friend would have been talking Japanese and eating sushi.... Not fondue

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Schulze said:


> Firearms are used between 2 and 10 times more often to stop crimes than to commit crimes in the USA. Technology might be scary to you, but it isn't going anywhere.


I'm trying to wrap my head around that. So for every armed robbery, there are 2-10 times when someone is stealing something (unarmed) and they are stopped by someone with a gun (for instance, could be other crimes)? Are they counting police? I'd be really curious to see how those figures were arrived at. I believe you are getting them from that report you posted.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

seal13il said:


> Well... If it wasn't for the "moronic" ideology of the United States constitution... You my friend would have been talking Japanese and eating sushi.... Not fondue
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Highly unlikely, Japs were already stretched beyond their limits, plus guns didnt stop the war, decimating two cities did, but thats all irrelevant to this thread.

You can carry your guns if you want, and lll form my opinion of you how l want.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

cmg71 said:


> Close and close, l hit the paradise double whammy
> 
> Grew up in Australia, now living in Switzerland, where l would guess gun ownership per capita may be higher than the USA, just without the moronic views about guns and our 'rights'


Ah. I'm confident then that your observations on American ideology can be safely ignored as just more blather in a thread with the usual amount of MTBR blather.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

chazpat said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around that. So for every armed robbery, there are 2-10 times when someone is stealing something (unarmed) and they are stopped by someone with a gun (for instance, could be other crimes)? Are they counting police? I'd be really curious to see how those figures were arrived at. I believe you are getting them from that report you posted.


The data might be questionable, but the data that are available show that guns are used millions of times a year to prevent crimes. Most defensive firearms uses don't involve any shots fired, and victims who resist with guns are more successful in preventing a violent attack than those who give in or resist by other means, according to the same data. My own experience dealing with these issues has been pretty consistent with that information, but I have no way of knowing how accurate the data are. That said, I'm not aware of any contrary source of data, so it may be the best we have. Statistics on "non-crimes" or foiled crimes isn't easy to find.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> Ah. I'm confident then that your observations on American ideology can be safely ignored as just more blather in a thread with the usual amount of MTBR blather.


Hows that ignorance working out for you guys 
Stereotype confirmed.........
'murica Fu<k Yeah !!!!!!!!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

cmg71 said:


> Hows that ignorance working out for you guys
> Stereotype confirmed.........
> 'murica Fu<k Yeah !!!!!!!!


Well, I could blather my uninformed, ignorant opinions of what s***holes either Australia OR Sweden are here on the internet (because uniformed ignorance is a big part of what the internet is for - thank you for confirming _that _stereotype), but in reality...I have no clue...never lived either place and have no basis for judging the culture of either place.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> Sweden.


:nonod: oh the irony...................









and Swaziland is in Africa  (but I think they are changing their name)


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

cmg71 said:


> Close and close, l hit the paradise double whammy
> 
> Grew up in Australia, now living in Switzerland, where l would guess gun ownership per capita may be higher than the USA, just without the moronic views about guns and our 'rights'


And that's something we should study. Why don't the Swiss have all the gun shooting issues we have in the US? I think it might be how guns are perceived in each country, in the US they are seen by too many people as fun toys and problem solvers, an image the gun industry is fine with as it helps sell more guns.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

actually I just checked, my guess was wrong, Swiss have about half as many as the USA


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

cmg71 said:


> :nonod: oh the irony...................
> 
> and Swaziland is in Africa  (but I think they are changing their name)


Yeah, whichever. I don't know enough about them, and none of the three has nearly enough impact on my life that I'd feel the need to comment on their culture and label their ideology "moronic", whatever that ideology is. It would be nice if you could just sit there quietly in your cultural ignorance and feel smug and superior. Then again, the internet is not a place for quiet smugness...it does draw people who like to shoot their mouth off and render uninformed opinion.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cuyuna said:


> It would be nice if you could just sit there quietly in your cultural ignorance and feel smug and superior.


^the irony is thick here


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

chazpat said:


> And that's something we should study. Why don't the Swiss have all the gun shooting issues we have in the US? I think it might be how guns are perceived in each country, in the US they are seen by too many people as fun toys and problem solvers, an image the gun industry is fine with as it helps sell more guns.


Well... Look into knife, car and physical violence... The numbers are there... To show our own ignorance in the US, how about you analyze the death ratio of rifle caused violence.... You will fi d that it is actually one of the lowest.... But big media and politicians have brainwashed us that those evil ARs are to blame.... It's all about the tool.... No one looks at the user.... And per reasons... If you look around the world, a Playstation or Xbox are status symbols... Cost of one is nearly the equivalent of an average monthly salary.... Games are crazy expensive too.... Here in the USA its nearly a "necessary" at every home.... These "games" are a huge part of the issues we have.... Research Dr Grossman

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

seal13il said:


> .... It's all about the tool.... No one looks at the user....


I think the tool might be a factor, I don't hear much in the news about mass knifings.

What's with all the periods?


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think the tool might be a factor, I don't hear much in the news about mass knifings.
> 
> What's with all the periods?


..... (here are some more), two years ago there was a mass "knifing" "with 25 dead if I remember correctly, knife violence happens every day all over the world, actually it is the number one cause of death in violent crimes

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Vball_MTNBKR (Aug 14, 2013)

Cuyuna said:


> ......It would be nice if you could just sit there quietly in your cultural ignorance and feel smug and superior.....





Cuyuna said:


> Well, I could blather my uninformed, ignorant opinions of what s***holes either Australia OR Sweden are here on the internet (because uniformed ignorance is a big part of what the internet is for - thank you for confirming _that _stereotype), but in reality...*I have no clue...*never lived either place and have no basis for judging the culture of either place.





Cuyuna said:


> Yeah, whichever.* I don't know enough about them, and none of the three has nearly enough impact on my life* that I'd feel the need to comment on their culture and label their ideology "moronic", whatever that ideology is.


:lol: :madman:

Oh the ironing.

The difference Cuyuna, is that Europeans are typically not ignorant and self absorbed like many Americans about other countries. They are typically well informed about America and other international on-goings. Many Europeans know more about American politics than many Americans.

And yes, I am American.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

seal13il said:


> ..... (here are some more), two years ago there was a mass "knifing" "with 25 dead if I remember correctly, knife violence happens every day all over the world, actually it is the number one cause of death in violent crimes


2 years ago? There are mass shootings here (US) practically every week.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think the tool might be a factor, I don't hear much in the news about mass knifings.
> 
> What's with all the periods?


Did you hear much in the news about the 180 terror attacks in the name of Islam in the last month?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah lets compare ourselves with war torn regions. We're so much better than them! U.S.A!!!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Australia is in Europe?

Who knew?!?!?!?


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

seal13il said:


> Well... Look into knife, car and physical violence... The numbers are there... To show our own ignorance in the US, how about you analyze the death ratio of rifle caused violence.... You will fi d that it is actually one of the lowest.... But big media and politicians have brainwashed us that those evil ARs are to blame.... It's all about the tool.... No one looks at the user.... And per reasons... If you look around the world, a Playstation or Xbox are status symbols... Cost of one is nearly the equivalent of an average monthly salary.... Games are crazy expensive too.... Here in the USA its nearly a "necessary" at every home.... These "games" are a huge part of the issues we have.... Research Dr Grossman
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Heh, I had numerous game consoles while growing up in the 80's and 90's. Today I own more than an few guns and carry daily. By the above logic, all that time playing Mortal Kombat, Terminator, (and in more recent years FPS games like the Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. franchises on PC) should have made me into a whackjob by now.

Then again, maybe there's some small sliver of truth to the BS theory of 'violent games' making people nuts... *tallies up money spent on mountain biking in the last year* Yup, I'm nuts!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

seal13il said:


> Well... Look into knife, car and physical violence... The numbers are there... To show our own ignorance in the US, how about you analyze the death ratio of rifle caused violence.... You will fi d that it is actually one of the lowest.... But big media and politicians have brainwashed us that those evil ARs are to blame.... It's all about the tool.... No one looks at the user.... And per reasons... If you look around the world, a Playstation or Xbox are status symbols... Cost of one is nearly the equivalent of an average monthly salary.... Games are crazy expensive too.... Here in the USA its nearly a "necessary" at every home.... These "games" are a huge part of the issues we have.... Research Dr Grossman
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


wth? I'm starting to think you're one of those who thinks the whole world outside of the US is just a bunch of uncivilized savages. Have you traveled outside of the US? What does the price of a game have to do with this?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thoreau said:


> Heh, I had numerous game consoles while growing up in the 80's and 90's. Today I own more than an few guns and carry daily. By the above logic, all that time playing Mortal Kombat, Terminator, (and in more recent years FPS games like the Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. franchises on PC) should have made me into a whackjob by now.
> 
> Then again, maybe there's some small sliver of truth to the BS theory of 'violent games' making people nuts... *tallies up money spent on mountain biking in the last year* Yup, I'm nuts!


Judging by the amount of hours I've spent getting my ass kicked in Dark Souls 1/2/3, I should be running around hacking suckers up with a sword on a daily basis.

So far, it's been a surprisingly rare occurrence. Maybe cuz blaming video games for people being assholes is as dumb as blaming guns.


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## Vball_MTNBKR (Aug 14, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Australia is in Europe?
> 
> Who knew?!?!?!?


No.... but Switzerland, where cmg71 lives now, is.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Vball_MTNBKR said:


> No.... but Switzerland, where cmg71 lives now, is.


I keed...

As someone who came here from Austria along with my immediate family, and still has lots of family in Europe, I do get a kick out of some peoples weird European inferiority complex. Things (and people) aren't perfect over there either. 
Seems to me to mainly be a whole lot of 'the grass is always greener' going on.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Thoreau said:


> Heh, I had numerous game consoles while growing up in the 80's and 90's. Today I own more than an few guns and carry daily. By the above logic, all that time playing Mortal Kombat, Terminator, (and in more recent years FPS games like the Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. franchises on PC) should have made me into a whackjob by now.
> 
> Then again, maybe there's some small sliver of truth to the BS theory of 'violent games' making people nuts... *tallies up money spent on mountain biking in the last year* Yup, I'm nuts!


Let's say I'm heavily evolved in the subject... Like mentioned before.... Google Lt. COL Grossman PHD

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I long for the good old days when it was rock and roll making people kill.

Even the damn Beatles were sending subliminal messages to Charlie Manson.

And they were from Europe!

I smell a conspiracy...


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

patiently awaiting the thread where you crash and blow your foot off...


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## willawry'd (Oct 3, 2005)

weeksy950 said:


> Out of all the people who do carry, how many times have you ever needed to use it on a MTB ride ?


Fortunately, about the same number of times I've needed my helmet&#8230;but I won't be leaving that at home either.


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

How would you open carry while riding? Also, how would you keep the firearm from falling out of the holster while zipping down the trail? Ensuring no accidental discharge from the shocking and jarring of riding? 

Of course, location determines the threat level of riding. I ride trails that generally do not have a reputation of crime (not saying it is impossible) but the risk of open carrying a firearm is greater than the actual criminality of it. I don't want to lose a firearm on the trail and have some thug or kid pick it up and shoot someone or themselves.

Personally, I don't want to advertise to the entire public I have a firearm on my person so I am not a big fan of open carry. Don't need someone freaking out and calling Law enforcement and going through the rigormorand of the process. Or advertising to a criminal where he or she can get a gun.

I am former military and hugely pro-gun but realistically I want to be able to protect myself but not draw attention to myself and having a firearm in the open, you are going to attract attention to yourself. 

If you are going to carry a firearm, concealed is the best way to do it - you don't draw unnecessary attention to yourself and you have access to it (if you use a pack on the frame) if you need to defend yourself from an actual crime or wild wookalar (The Private Eye's movie with Don Knotts and Tim Conway reference). 

I would also not carry a firearm that is chambered for obvious reasons to avoid any remote chance of an accidental discharge - I know a lot of folks say cocked and locked but if I am doing something that is involving a lot of shock and jarring I prefer to eliminiate all possibilities, even remotely, that there will be an accidental discharge. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^the irony is thick here


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to J.B. Weld again.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

Lawson Raider said:


> How would you open carry while riding? Also, how would you keep the firearm from falling out of the holster while zipping down the trail? Ensuring no accidental discharge from the shocking and jarring of riding?
> 
> Of course, location determines the threat level of riding. I ride trails that generally do not have a reputation of crime (not saying it is impossible) but the risk of open carrying a firearm is greater than the actual criminality of it. I don't want to lose a firearm on the trail and have some thug or kid pick it up and shoot someone or themselves.
> 
> ...


Thank you. we need more people like you.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

how come all the kooks that find it necessary to carry a gun on a bike also have no friends to ride with? or probably not many in general?

coincidence? not likely...


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Lawson Raider said:


> How would you open carry while riding?


In a holster? Paddle and IWB holsters work fine in some cases, but other ideas have been mentioned already in this thread (pack, chest rig, drop leg, etc.)



Lawson Raider said:


> Also, how would you keep the firearm from falling out of the holster while zipping down the trail?


By not using a shitty holster. Retention holsters are not hard to find (Safariland is among my favorite brands for their ALS and SLS systems.



Lawson Raider said:


> Ensuring no accidental discharge from the shocking and jarring of riding?


Don't buy a POS gun? Any firearm that can go off from impacts is a POS and should be melted and made into something fun and artsy.



Lawson Raider said:


> I don't want to lose a firearm on the trail and have some thug or kid pick it up and shoot someone or themselves.


Then don't? Riding on a trail makes a firearm no more likely to get lost than any other activity. If that's a real risk, one probably shouldn't be carrying anywhere/ever.



Lawson Raider said:


> I would also not carry a firearm that is chambered for obvious reasons to avoid any remote chance of an accidental discharge - I know a lot of folks say cocked and locked but if I am doing something that is involving a lot of shock and jarring I prefer to eliminiate all possibilities, even remotely, that there will be an accidental discharge.


See the 'crappy gun' notes above. Carry a 1911 or Taurus at your own risk (they fall into the crap=category in my eyes, but to each their own I suppose.) Any good carry firearm made in recent decades it perfectly safe for chambered carry when maintained and used properly. If it can't be carried chambered safely, again, melt it and get something that isn't a POS toy.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Vball_MTNBKR said:


> :lol: :madman:
> 
> Oh the ironing.
> 
> ...


I don't like doing the laundry either, but never found it intellectually challenging.



.WestCoastHucker. said:


> patiently awaiting the thread where you crash and blow your foot off...


Sadly, it'll probably be someone else's foot. Kinda like drunk drivers...



J.B. Weld said:


> ^the irony is thick here


You sure you don't mean "ironing"? :lol:


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> how come all the kooks that find it necessary to carry a gun on a bike also have no friends to ride with? or probably not many in general?
> 
> coincidence? not likely...


Wow.... That was probably one of the most idiotic comments on this thread... And there were some out there....

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## HeatherV (Jun 21, 2018)

Don't do open carry. Don't be a Gun Idiot like this guy:






Seriously, doing open carry is like you're wearing a sign that says, "Hate On Me." Nobody thinks it's cool. It's like the guy in the bar doing martial arts moves, everyone rolls their eyes and walks away. Speaking as a female, every female I know hates public display of guns (and there are some analogies here you can easily draw, no pun intended.) Everyone I know who carries concealed thinks very little of open carry.

The only reason to do open carry while biking would be to post GoPro video on YouTube of all the negative reactions. Seriously, I'm totally pro-gun and might or might not carry concealed while riding, but open carry is just stupid.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Lawson Raider said:


> How would you open carry while riding? Also, how would you keep the firearm from falling out of the holster while zipping down the trail? Ensuring no accidental discharge from the shocking and jarring of riding?
> 
> Of course, location determines the threat level of riding. I ride trails that generally do not have a reputation of crime (not saying it is impossible) but the risk of open carrying a firearm is greater than the actual criminality of it. I don't want to lose a firearm on the trail and have some thug or kid pick it up and shoot someone or themselves.
> 
> ...


Im definately not 'pro gun', but that is the best pro gun post in this thread.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Sheriff Grady Judd, Polk county Florida

*Another case of underestimating the ammo requirementsAs reported earlier this week, some dirtbag who got pulled over in a routine traffic stop in Florida ended up "executing" the deputy who stopped him.
The deputy was shot eight times, including once behind his right ear at close range.
Another deputy was wounded and a police dog killed.
A statewide manhunt ensued. The low-life piece of human garbage was found hiding in a wooded area with his gun. SWAT team officers fired and hit said low-life 68 times.
Now here's the kicker: Asked why they shot the guy 68 times, Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd told the Orlando Sentinel &#8230; get this. "That's all the bullets we had."
God bless Sheriff Judd!*


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Osco said:


> What In the world is a "wild wookalar" ? Gotta get one of those on my trophy wall
> 
> This thread Is something,,


Here's a group of them. Or at least what I imagine they might be.


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

Osco said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "I would also not carry a firearm that is chambered for obvious reasons to avoid any remote chance of an accidental discharge - I know a lot of folks say cocked and locked but if I am doing something that is involving a lot of shock and jarring I prefer to eliminiate all possibilities, even remotely, that there will be an accidental discharge.
> 
> ...


That seems incredibly dangerous, hope you have good health insurance if it discharges in a crash. Only reason I could see having it chambered is if you're riding through a super sketchy neighborhood on pavement. If in the national forest I dont think the extra second or two it takes to get one in the chamber is going to make any difference in any outcomes with dangerous animals or criminals using public land for illegal drug growing. Although in the small chance you run into one of those, assuming you're in the US best to get out of there quick and inform the local authorities.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

kitejumping said:


> That seems incredibly dangerous, hope you have good health insurance if it discharges in a crash.


I hope that there is no one near him when his gun went off accidentally. What is the jail time for that??


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

kitejumping said:


> That seems incredibly dangerous, hope you have good health insurance if it discharges in a crash. Only reason I could see having it chambered is if you're riding through a super sketchy neighborhood on pavement. If in the national forest I dont think the extra second or two it takes to get one in the chamber is going to make any difference in any outcomes with dangerous animals or criminals using public land for illegal drug growing. Although in the small chance you run into one of those, assuming you're in the US best to get out of there quick and inform the local authorities.


Ugh. We are talking handguns appropruate for personal carry... if you believe there is a risk of discharge, you simply do not understand how they work. Go check out a schematic of a Glock and find a way for that firing pin to touch the primer.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So what was the deal with the dancing FBI agent, why did his gun go off?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

noapathy said:


> Here's a group of them. Or at least what I imagine they might be.
> 
> View attachment 1204713


I think that's just a GWAR side project.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Osco said:


> "accidental discharge from the shocking and jarring" we are talking about modern firearms correct ? This does not happen.


Yeah, it never happens.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/09/remington-rifle-triggers-lawsuit-settlement.html

It's true that it SHOULDN'T happen. But it's disingenuous to say that it never does.


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

Thoreau said:


> Ugh. We are talking handguns appropruate for personal carry... if you believe there is a risk of discharge, you simply do not understand how they work. Go check out a schematic of a Glock and find a way for that firing pin to touch the primer.


If you pull the trigger when one is in the chamber and your safety is off than it would go off wouldn't it?


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

kitejumping said:


> If you pull the trigger when one is in the chamber and your safety is off than it would go off wouldn't it?


If it's holstered properly... Unless there is an idiot attached... It won't go boom.... În other words, keep your booger fingers off the bang bang switch and everything will be fine

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

G40 mos


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

Osco said:


> It better, but how does a gun turn It's safety off on It's own as It falls so It can go off ?


Crash causes it to fly out of the holster, safety gets bumped on a rock, trigger catches on a branch and it fires. Or in the case of not using a safety it flies out of the holster in a crash and clips a branch, goes off. Extremely unlikely but not impossible.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Tons of guns can have the safety pop itself off when modified. Tons of people modify guns. Its an entire, huge industry. 

My CZ has no safety switch. A popular upgrade is to disable the rest of the safeties. 

Toss a trigger on a glock with a spring kit, and it goes off pretty damn easy.

Lets not pretend its not a thing...


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Bang Bang !


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)




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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

I think the open carry part annoying people mostly has to do with the lack of firearms training and safety courses combined with the ease of getting firearms in this country. Someone might be extremely well trained in firearms safety but if I see an open carry on someone not in uniform, I don't know that. Search the forum history and there are numerous instances of people having bullets whizzing by them and having to hit the deck on a trail because some idiots were popping off rounds in the woods near popular trailheads with a complete disregard for their backstop.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Decided not to beat this dead horse.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

bump


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## PUGlife (Apr 23, 2018)

Yeah, not a good example. The guy had his finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun in a freaking school and touched one off by accident. He is clearly a dumbass.

Personally I'm a fan of this holster and being in Alaska carrying on rides for protection against animals is a must

https://gunfightersinc.com/products__trashed/kenai-chest-holster/

If you have a heavy gun like a revolver then I recommend some sort of strap retention as they can fall out from hitting bumps or jumps, that's just physics at work. With a Glock (Glock 20 is my preference) they are fairly light so with the tension screw tightened you shouldn't have a problem with just the friction of the holster holding the gun in. With Kydex holsters the holster body holds the gun very securely.

As far as accidental or negligent discharges, that is HIGHLY unlikely with a quality holster and gun. First, the gun should not be able to fall out of the holster and even if it does the trigger on a stock glock or revolver is heavy enough that in the unlikely event that some foliage made it into the trigger guard it couldn't depress the 8-12lb trigger pull.

With a little common sense and knowledge of guns and gear carrying in the backcountry on a bike is a non-event.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Harold said:


> Yeah, it never happens.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/09/remington-rifle-triggers-lawsuit-settlement.html
> 
> It's true that it SHOULDN'T happen. But it's disingenuous to say that it never does.


You carry a 700 on your bike? I thought this discussion was about mountain biking and carrying, which seems to imply handgun. Hell, I wouldn't carry a chambered AR-15 either on a bike because they have a free-floating firing pin. Also wouldn't carry most shotguns.



chazpat said:


> So what was the deal with the dancing FBI agent, why did his gun go off?


#1: Shitty holster
#2: negligence when picking the gun back up (he squeezed the trigger)



kitejumping said:


> If you pull the trigger when one is in the chamber and your safety is off than it would go off wouldn't it?


That's kinda the design. Luckily, I don't wander around with an unholstered handgun pulling the trigger. Problem solved.



kitejumping said:


> Crash causes it to fly out of the holster, safety gets bumped on a rock, trigger catches on a branch and it fires. Or in the case of not using a safety it flies out of the holster in a crash and clips a branch, goes off. Extremely unlikely but not impossible.


See #1 regarding the FBI dancer above.



One Pivot said:


> Tons of guns can have the safety pop itself off when modified. Tons of people modify guns. Its an entire, huge industry.
> 
> My CZ has no safety switch. A popular upgrade is to disable the rest of the safeties.
> 
> ...


If someone modifies a gun, that SHOULD imply some level of knowledge of how they work, and the safety implications of whatever they modified. This is why anyone with half a brain doesn't carry a race/competition pistol. Carrying a gun that is properly suited to the task is the responsibility of the carrier.

As for the Glock trigger/sprigng kit, all you do there is lighten the trigger/smooth it out. It doesn't change the fact that the firing pin isn't going to hit the primer unless you pull the trigger. No impact is going to do that. And again, not an issue if it's in an appropriate holster.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Osco said:


> ...decades have a better understanding of AD's, (NEGLIGENT discharge)...


There, fixed it for ya =)


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## kitejumping (Sep 3, 2010)

Thoreau said:


> That's kinda the design. Luckily, I don't wander around with an unholstered handgun pulling the trigger. Problem solved.


The ability to transport firearms without loaded chambers is also part of how they are designed too.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Just an example used to refute an unnecessarily broad assertion. Don't get your panties in a wad. 

And it IS a thing for people to carry hunting weapons while riding. Some people use bikes to reach their favorite hunting spots. Racks are made that carry rifles/shotguns. May be different than the topic of carrying for personal protection, but it is still carrying while riding.

And I own a Remington 11-87 Premier that was my father's. Because Remington was involved, I was simply aware of what was going on when the case was active, since I wanted to know if the trigger on mine might have the same issue (it does not). 

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

kitejumping said:


> The ability to transport firearms without loaded chambers is also part of how they are designed too.


The mag can be empty too. And the mag can be stored in your back pocket. Anything is possible. I certainly don't care if another person wants to carry with an empty chamber as it doesn't affect me. But allowing the false concept of it somehow being safer, in the context of just about any decent EDC-suitable handgun carried by a non-moron, to propagate is an issue.


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Harold said:


> And it IS a thing for people to carry hunting weapons while riding. Some people use bikes to reach their favorite hunting spots. Racks are made that carry rifles/shotguns. May be different than the topic of carrying for personal protection, but it is still carrying while riding.
> 
> And I own a Remington 11-87 Premier that was my father's. Because Remington was involved, I was simply aware of what was going on when the case was active, since I wanted to know if the trigger on mine might have the same issue (it does not).
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Fair enough. Not the intent of the thread, but still in the realm of possibility. That said, I'm not at all familiar with hunting practices, but I'd imagine that if I were out for, say, deer or elk in AZ, I'd probably not be chambered until target is sighted at least.

I do have a nice pack from Eberlestock though, with the long gun scabbard built in. Wasn't on a bike (on foot only) but even then I didn't carry the rifle chambered. (free-floating firing pin and all that jazz.)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Depends. Out in open country, for sure being chambered is probably not needed or necessarily desirable when in transit. However for upland bird hunting, you are likely going to be hiking while on the hunt. Also possible to be on the move while hunting in thick forest. Depends on what you are hunting and your strategy for the hunt, as there is typically no single best method.

All that said, if I was on the bike, I would not be carrying my hunting firearm chambered. Or even necessarily with the magazine full.

As it applies to handguns on the bike, I really don't think having a round chambered buys you much. Most things aren't going to come at you without warning. And the ones that do are going to be hunting and are most likely not going to be seen prior to the attack anyway.

In a mtn lion attack (one you are exceedingly unlikely to see coming, as mtn lions are ambush predators), for example, punching it in the face is a better use of your energy in the initial attack than trying to draw and fire a handgun (with a big cat trying to nom on you), round chambered or not. The firearm might become useful AFTER you've fended off that attack IF it happens to come back, which is an exceedingly rare occurrence.

A handgun for snakes (has been mentioned in this thread) is just pure ridiculousness.

For bears, a handgun is just too small. I applied for a wildlife biologist job once that required biologists to carry a rifle because of the bears.

And for shady grow ops in the woods, a handgun is unlikely to be enough. My dad was doing training exercises on a national guard base and they stumbled on one such grow op. The growers fired on them with automatic weapons and because they were not doing live fire exercises, they only had blanks and had to take cover and call in law enforcement. You aren't going to do anything with a handgun in that sort of situation except get dead, despite what action movies might show you.

I don't dispute the validity of carrying. But it should be pretty clear that what a handgun is most effective for protecting against is your garden variety human criminal who wishes to do you ill. There just aren't many of those hanging out on mtb trails. The risk, imo, is so low that the hassle of carrying becomes more burdensome than the benefits. IMO, that balance changes some if you are talking about commuting. Especially if your route is quiet and you travel it regularly, and there is a history of incidents in the area. I know of some such places where commuters have been attacked in a quiet area. It also becomes relevant if there is an issue with road rage directed against cyclists. This is probably the one thing we can point to with the most evidence of there being a relatively high level of risk for someone on a bike. The gun won't protect you from being run over from behind, but it can sure help deter the rager who passes, stops, and gets out of their vehicle to come after you. Anyone who spends enough time riding on the road can describe several incidents with road raging drivers. I have my own list of incidents. A rider locally was beaten by a driver in one of these exact scenarios. It was caught on dash cam footage by another driver and the driver was found guilty and convicted, so it definitely happens.


Thoreau said:


> Fair enough. Not the intent of the thread, but still in the realm of possibility. That said, I'm not at all familiar with hunting practices, but I'd imagine that if I were out for, say, deer or elk in AZ, I'd probably not be chambered until target is sighted at least.
> 
> I do have a nice pack from Eberlestock though, with the long gun scabbard built in. Wasn't on a bike (on foot only) but even then I didn't carry the rifle chambered. (free-floating firing pin and all that jazz.)


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Thoreau (Jun 15, 2017)

Mountain lion happens to be the one time i have ever drawn and fired. It was one of those rare cases where we spotted it stalking us from above while hiking through a canyon. Fired a couple shots into a tree (in canyon, not up near the kitty cat) just to make noise to scare it off. Dunno if it worked, but we made it back out the same canyon without being eaten, so good enough for me. 

Handgun was already chambered, and no, it wouldve made no difference in that case. But i dont change my sidearm carry method around. Consistency is key in any training. And since i dont carry anything thats gonna jump out of its holster and go bang on its own, chambered is the standard for me.

As for the hassle aspect and weighing the value, that is indeed subjective and up to the individual. For me, theres really no hassle to carrying. I carry pretty much all the time, so its just second nature now. The only reason im rarely carrying on the bike is because im in a warm climate and tend to not even have a backpack. Most of the shorts i choose dont even have belt loops which rules out IWB carry, drop leg holster would be stupidly uncomfortable, amd im too lazy and cheap to even look into or buy any kind of chest rig. Longer rides in more remote locations with a backpack, and i throw it in there more because its safer under my supervision than in an unattended vehicle at a trailhead.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Thoreau said:


> Mountain lion happens to be the one time i have ever drawn and fired. It was one of those rare cases where we spotted it stalking us from above while hiking through a canyon. Fired a couple shots into a tree (in canyon, not up near the kitty cat) just to make noise to scare it off. Dunno if it worked, but we made it back out the same canyon without being eaten, so good enough for me.
> .


Probably didn't make a huge difference in the end, but you prob did scare the cat. The vast majority of mt lions will not attack if they know they've been seen. They certainly will watch and they may still approach to test you, but mt lions can be driven off more easily than a lot of other curious predators. I have kept mt lions at bay by throwing rocks and sticks and by yelling and jumping around.

Things get different in the cases of diseased or starved animals, but that's even rarer.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Thoreau said:


> In a holster? Paddle and IWB holsters work fine in some cases, but other ideas have been mentioned already in this thread (pack, chest rig, drop leg, etc.)
> 
> By not using a shitty holster. Retention holsters are not hard to find (Safariland is among my favorite brands for their ALS and SLS systems.
> 
> ...


45 cal 1911 may be the very safest firearm to carry. Carried in Condition two, a firing pin block and pistol grip safety, the gun will not go off unintentionally no matter what happens to it. The slow fat bullet will not go through a person and strike a second object in most cases. I often carry a Kimber CDP Ultra II or a Colt Officer Liteweight when conditions warrant. Never open carry however. These are not crap guns but rather accurate, reliable and safe. Maybe the best man stopper practical enough to carry concealed. Glocks are not safe to carry with a round in the pipe. I know cause I had four of them. Gave them all away.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

This thread needs more tits.........



just saying


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> 45 cal 1911 may be the very safest firearm to carry. Carried in Condition two, a firing pin block and pistol grip safety, the gun will not go off unintentionally no matter what happens to it. The slow fat bullet will not go through a person and strike a second object in most cases. I often carry a Kimber CDP Ultra II or a Colt Officer Liteweight when conditions warrant. Never open carry however. These are not crap guns but rather accurate, reliable and safe. Maybe the best man stopper practical enough to carry concealed. Glocks are not safe to carry with a round in the pipe. I know cause I had four of them. Gave them all away.


 Glocks are the most unsafe out there, 1911, especially if series80 no chance for "oops", with that said, the glock (nor the taurus) will fire at drop, bottom line is, be responsible!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> 45 cal 1911 may be the very safest firearm to carry. Carried in Condition two, a firing pin block and pistol grip safety, the gun will not go off unintentionally no matter what happens to it. The slow fat bullet will not go through a person and strike a second object in most cases. I often carry a Kimber CDP Ultra II or a Colt Officer Liteweight when conditions warrant. Never open carry however. These are not crap guns but rather accurate, reliable and safe. Maybe the best man stopper practical enough to carry concealed. Glocks are not safe to carry with a round in the pipe. I know cause I had four of them. Gave them all away.


A 1911 is not designed to be carried in Condition 2.

The grip safety on a 1911 only prevents the trigger bow from moving, it does nothing to block sear movement. Not that sear movement would matter on a single action pistol with the hammer down.

Glocks are absolutely safe as long as a human being doesn't have access to the trigger. Their safety mechanism is far safer than that of the 1911 as long as trigger access is denied.

The Glock is one of the most popular handguns on earth. It's not my favorite, but it is absolutely safe.

A handgun that cannot be safely carried with a round in the chamber is worthless.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> There, fixed it for ya =)


Yep correct,, AD should not be the term, ever


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

bump


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Osco said:


> The thing about Glocks,
> 
> They ain't pretty,
> They are not the cool looking gun, If you need to impress your buddies pick something else as Glocks are not 'Bling'.
> ...


I can demolishyour argument so easy....Nothing perfect about a glock besides the marketing geniousity of gostav (whom i met many times), he copiedan hk design and widend the grip to hold 17 rds , at a time where all u had was hi powers and 1911 , the thought of a hi capacity light weight gun was huge, the glock is far from being accur, especially under stress conditions, it is not a "natural pointer" , has a 17° grip angle as it was designed fo "austrian hands" and gustav truly believed that u point sideways..(yep...Gangstastyle), Its a good gun , no question there, but not the hype it is made to be...And lets say i have into the few 100k rds behind them glorified tapaware boom sticks

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

I passed a guy who had an open carry pistol on his right butt cheek, the only comment I made to my self was, how does spandex hold up a Blackhawk holster?


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

tim208 said:


> I passed a guy who had an open carry pistol on his right butt cheek, the only comment I made to my self was, how does spandex hold up a Blackhawk holster?


I use a belly holster, which sits inside your shorts/bibs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

This is just my opinion, not saying it is gospel truth or better than anyone else's. I have no problem if I see someone open carry but to respect others on the trails who may not be as comfortable with open carry as I am and to avoid the hassle of potential law enforcement hassles, I find it better if I choose to carry a firearm with me while riding to pack in concealed. I have been mountain biking for 12 years and have never come across a scenario where I even would remotely need a firearm (not saying it will never happen because it does happen) but I also ride where crime is not rampant as well. 

There are some trails in the KC area that I would consider carrying concealed in as there have been crime reports (most of those are parked vehicles where folks break in and steal what they can vs someone confronting the actual rider.) but if I did, concealed. 

As far as chambering the firearm whilst carrying, that is a personal choice - Yes it shaves a second or two if you carried chambered but a firearm is a mechanical device - it can fail, the safety can fail... most modern firearms have 2 or more safety mechanisms to prevent accidental discharges but again - they are mechanical. I may be erring on the overcautious side but the only way to make the firearm 100% safe from accidental discharge is not having it chambered - no bullet in the chamber, no fire. 

I do the same thing hunting, I unchamber the rifle before climbing up to the treestand, unchamber it before I come down for that exact same reason - no bullet in chamber, no accidental discharge chances. I don't want to trust a mechanical safety.


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## azimiut (Feb 21, 2014)

cmg71 said:


> This thread needs more tits.........
> 
> just saying


 knew something was missing....


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

bump


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Osco said:


> Hahahahahaha I bow to your wisdom, I have been '*Demolished*' LoL PMSL good stuff LoL
> Greay choice of words, you made my day, thanks, really.
> My sides are hurting, the dogs barking and thinks I've lost it...
> 
> ...


If it works for us that is what counts....but no reason to glorify what's not no need to bow(though pictures are welcomed)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Osco said:


> The thing about Glocks,
> 
> They ain't pretty,
> They are not the cool looking gun, If you need to impress your buddies pick something else as Glocks are not 'Bling'.
> ...


Glocks may be the most reliable semi auto pistol available. I never had a failure in the four
Models I have owned. My issue is for example I need to lay flat my 1911's in two of my car's center glove box with no room for a protective holster to guard the trigger. The gun is of course safe as long as you understand you cannot remove the gun from the holder unless you are going to use the tool. As far as keeping a round in the chamber, it is necessary as if you need the gun fast, you may not have two hands to pull the slide back. In a 1911 1A, with a round in the chamber and hammer down on the firing pin block, all you do is rest your thumb on the hammer an either pull it back or just toss the gun down with your thumb on the hammer and it is ready for action. Only a one handed move. If your thumb slips off the hammer, Before it is pulled all the way back, the gun will still not fire. I have carried 1911 45 cal since 1987 in condition two and never ever had an unintentional discharge. Did have to pull the hammer back twice however but the bad guy backed down very quickly. Glocks are also accurate but very ugly but who cares about that. My only issue with Glocks is when there is round in the chamber, it must be kept in the proper holster. I can not live with that so my friends got free guns.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Pedalon2018 said:


> My only issue with Glocks is when there is round in the chamber, it must be kept in the proper holster. I can not live with that so my friends got free guns.


And did your friends get proper holsters for your gifts?


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

chazpat said:


> And did your friends get proper holsters for your gifts?


I sure hope so. It was 19 years ago so my memory is a bit fuzzy. I do know they never shot themselves.

i must say that there is one drawback to carrying in condition two. To get to that state, you must start in condition one which means you need to drop the hammer down on a live round by pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer slowly down. You better know what you are doing cause if you make an error, there could be unintended discharge. That is mostly the reason condition two is not recommend by several prominent experts.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Glocks may be the most reliable semi auto pistol available. I never had a failure in the four
> Models I have owned.


Bah. I had a G19 for awhile. Kicked brass at my head routinely. Grip about as ergonomic as a 2x4, trigger like squeezing a lemon. I fixed (more or less) the ejection with the ejector kit from Apex Tactical, couldn't fix the trigger. Couldn't get rid of it fast enough. There are several _good_ striker-fired pistols on the market. I prefer the fully-cocked varieties and have a couple of Walther PPQ's and an HK VP9. No need to settle for Glock.

I've had 1911's. They shoot well enough but I prefer not rely on any self-defense pistol with a manual safety.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> Bah. I had a G19 for awhile. Kicked brass at my head routinely. Grip about as ergonomic as a 2x4, trigger like squeezing a lemon. I fixed (more or less) the ejection with the ejector kit from Apex Tactical, couldn't fix the trigger. Couldn't get rid of it fast enough. There are several _good_ striker-fired pistols on the market. I prefer the fully-cocked varieties and have a couple of Walther PPQ's and an HK VP9. No need to settle for Glock.
> 
> I've had 1911's. They shoot well enough but I prefer not rely on any self-defense pistol with a manual safety.


What Glocks do is shoot everytime you pull the trigger. You may get hit in the head with brass but if you pull the trigger the gun will fire if loaded with proper amo. As previously stated, I gave mine away.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

With probably 100k rds on my service "hand me over" P228 and p226 I never saw an issue....more with most other main name brands....


Pedalon2018 said:


> What Glocks do is shoot everytime you pull the trigger. You may get hit in the head with brass but if you pull the trigger the gun will fire if loaded with proper amo. As previously stated, I gave mine away.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Harold said:


> For bears, a handgun is just too small. I applied for a wildlife biologist job once that required biologists to carry a rifle because of the bears.


Oh well that settles it.

Reality: handguns work well against bears.



> I contacted Dave Smith, prominent author and bear attack expert. Dave was not able to recall an incident where a pistol used in self defense against a bear had failed. We talked about the study Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska.
> 
> In that study, the authors included 37 instances of a handgun being present when a bear attacked a human. The instances were collected over a period from 1883 to 2009. They recorded six failures to stop the attack out of the 37 instances, an 84% success rate.


Where Are All The Bear Attack Pistol Failures? - The Truth About Guns


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I’m going to guess that there are a few times that author didn’t hear about. 


...because the gun didn’t deter the bear, and there was no longer a person to give them a thumbs up or down on deterrence, after the fact. 

It’s anecdotal and unprovable.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Being shot by guns hurts, even if you're a a bear.



> What Glocks do is shoot everytime you pull the trigger. You may get hit in the head with brass but if you pull the trigger the gun will fire if loaded with proper amo. As previously stated, I gave mine away.


I put a few thousand through my glock 21 with no failures. I put a few thousand through my dads g22 without failures, and he probably put 10k more on it himself. I put 10k through my M&P without a real failure (I had some ammo failures because I screwed up, but even those werent an issue). Im up to a few k on my cz with no failures.

... at some point, do we just have to admit that modern quality handguns don't really fail?

Yeah, glocks dont fail if you have a firm grip, just like everything else. They still have bad triggers and poor/terrible ergonomics.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

bump


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Isn't there a plethora of gun forums to gush about "hot brass" on?


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

Cougars; you've got to wonder if the loud noise does scare them off. Stated above it did, and in the recent cougar attack in WA the first shot from the authorities missed and scared that cat away from the deceased victim. They do have extra sensitive hearing, and their cousins (our kittycats) are really un-nerved by loud noises, - like on 4th of July. Maybe carry a string of firecrackers!, - but only in wet/damp weather (or a starters pistol). I've joked with my kid that carrying a can of cat food might work, -just crack the lid slightly open and toss it like a grenade, by the time the big cat or bear gets that stinky thing open and eats the food you would have escaped (not a serious recommendation).
My dad was the first mountain biker I knew: He and his hunting buddies had been using Honda CT-90s on the fire roads to get to where they'd go on foot. After the fire roads got closed to motos they all got Nishiki mtbs, in about '85. They would mostly ride up to their on-foot areas, and on a few occasions they strung the deer through the frame and coasted or walked the game out wheeled on the bike. I think they tried to make a cart out of two bikes with some fir poles for an elk one time, but that didn't work so well. Yes, photos exist of some of this. Dad (86 now) used a Model 70 in 30-06, I know it was never chambered until needed. I went once with him in Idaho in about '92, I was more interested in training for racing than hunting, but it was interesting and a fun camping trip, we didn't get any game. I don't think I had a license so I don't remember riding with my 700BDL, but I may have carried a 22 for grouse, - I can't quite remember.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Osco said:


> Hit In the head with Brass,, wu~tu~fu LoL Too Funnay
> 
> All my Glocks, All my brass, Never a direct hit not counting ricochet's,


Brass-to-face with the Gen 3 and some Gen 4 Glock 19s and 17's is/was a problem well-known to most knowledgeable pistol shooters and widely discussed on numerous gun forums. There are several threads on M4C, including one that went almost 2100 posts. Fixing those unreliable Glocks made Randy Lee at Apex Tactical a lot of money, mainly for his Apex FRE (Failure Resistant Extractor). The whole issue was an eye-opener for many previously die-hard Glock fanboys. I'm sure it didn't change very many minds (Glock users are pretty entrenched in the platform), but it sure pissed a lot of 'em off.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

seal13il said:


> I can demolishyour argument so easy....Nothing perfect about a glock besides the *marketing geniousity of gostav *(whom i met many times), he copiedan hk design and widend the grip to hold 17 rds , at a time where all u had was hi powers and 1911 , the thought of a hi capacity light weight gun was huge, the glock is far from being accur, especially under stress conditions, it is not a "natural pointer" , has a 17° grip angle as it was designed fo "austrian hands" and gustav truly believed that u point sideways..(yep...Gangstastyle), Its a good gun , no question there, but not the hype it is made to be...And lets say i have into the few 100k rds behind them glorified tapaware boom sticks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I assume that you're referring to Gaston Glock (whom you've met many times )

Not sure what a SM-G965U is but it seems to have quite a grammar-muddler built in.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Cuyuna said:


> Brass-to-face with the Gen 3 and some Gen 4 Glock 19s and 17's is/was a problem well-known to most knowledgeable pistol shooters and widely discussed on numerous gun forums.
> 
> (Glock users are pretty entrenched in the platform),


I did not know that, never encountered that, never met anyone who spoke of that.

I must admit that This derailed thread is just about the only time or place I've 'Interneted'
about guns.
Never did much of the gun forum thing, so much BS and so much about useless mods from what little I saw.

After all these years, yeah I think I'm entrenched.


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## seal13il (May 13, 2018)

Samsung lol


Cuyuna said:


> I assume that you're referring to Gaston Glock (whom you've met many times )
> 
> Not sure what a SM-G965U is but it seems to have quite a grammar-muddler built in.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Osco said:


> Never did much of the gun forum thing, so much BS and so much about useless mods from what little I saw.


you mean sort .. of ... like.. Bike Forums.......?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Osco said:


> I did not know that, never encountered that, never met anyone who spoke of that.
> 
> I must admit that This derailed thread is just about the only time or place I've 'Interneted'
> about guns.
> ...


I agree...generally speaking, most internet gun forums have every bit as much BS as most mountain biking forums. As to being an entrenched Glock user...some of the best instructors I know, including several nationally-known self-defense trainers, are the same. It doesn't make you a bad person.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

cmg71 said:


> you mean sort .. of ... like.. Bike Forums.......?


Bingo.


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