# I was told I couldn't bring my bike to dirtfest 2016



## Mr Cabletwitch (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm kinda bummed a friend of mine who is a disabled veteran has been building a bike that he can use given his limited leg strength. I was hoping to get a little exposure by taking it to Dirtfest for him and show some of the fat bike guys how much more fun one of these can be with a little help. Anyway I'm kinda bummed but if they say no I guess I can't do anything. I sent an email to Dirtrag telling them about the bike and they very rudely instructed me not to bring bike and it would be trouble for me if I brought the bike. The only thing that stinks is that in the State of PA an ebike with less than a 750w motor (I have a 600) is legally defined the same as a bicycle and is allowed on state lands that a bike is allowed on. I'm feeling kinda railroaded but don't want to cause a fuss. 

And yes that bike has a front drive geared electric wheel and an internally geared rear hub powered strictly by the pedals.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It appears the trails are leased by a private organization from the Army Corp of Engineers, so I would venture they can do as they like. It's a shame your buddy can't ride as was planned.

Allegrippis Trails Info


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I think they are worried that your friend will destroy the trails and terrorize the other riders...... It could happen. Better to be safe than sorry, you know.


On the other hand, you may want to see if their lease requires them to be in compliance with PA state law at all times. If so, and if the law really does define low powered ebikes as legally the same as pushbikes, then they may be forced to allow your friend access. It is state property and one would think that state law would supercede any club rules......


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

OP, so you're trying to sell and showcase an e motorcycle at a Dirt Rag event? They have more than 25 years of trail, access and open space advocacy. They talk the talk and walk the walk. And you are surprised? Hmm. Ever read Dirt Rag? Unless the rider was there who had a legit ADA issue, seems you are SOl.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think they are worried that your friend will destroy the trails and terrorize the other riders...... It could happen. Better to be safe than sorry, you know.
> 
> On the other hand, you may want to see if their lease requires them to be in compliance with PA state law at all times. If so, and if the law really does define low powered ebikes as legally the same as pushbikes, then they may be forced to allow your friend access. It is state property and one would think that state law would supercede any club rules......


From the post it sounds like his friend isn't going, he wants to advertise the bike itself.

I'd guess since the hub is in the front wheel with an IGH in the back it also uses throttle, not pedal assisted? Isn't there typically a legal distinction there as well?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it's a private event and they can have their own rules.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

formula4speed said:


> From the post it sounds like his friend isn't going, he wants to advertise the bike itself.
> 
> I'd guess since the hub is in the front wheel with an IGH in the back it also uses throttle, not pedal assisted? Isn't there typically a legal distinction there as well?
> 
> In any case, I'm pretty sure it's a private event and they can have their own rules.


 I think it gets complicated by the fact that the event is taking place on state (public) property. As I mentioned above it depends to some extent by the details of the contract leasing the land from the state, as well as state law regarding bikes/ebikes.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, As long as he can still get out on e-legal (have I just coined a term?) trails he should finish it then get out and enjoy the heck out of it.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think it gets complicated by the fact that the event is taking place on state (public) property. As I mentioned above it depends to some extent by the details of the contract leasing the land from the state, as well as state law regarding bikes/ebikes.


According to the post and link above, the event is on Army Corps of Engineers (i.e. federal) property, rather than state property.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> I think they are worried that your friend will destroy the trails and terrorize the other riders...... It could happen. Better to be safe than sorry, you know.
> 
> On the other hand, you may want to see if their lease requires them to be in compliance with PA state law at all times. If so, and if the law really does define low powered ebikes as legally the same as pushbikes, then they may be forced to allow your friend access. It is state property and one would think that state law would supercede any club rules......





Mr Cabletwitch said:


> I'm kinda bummed a friend of mine who is a disabled veteran has been building a bike that he can use given his limited leg strength. I was hoping to get a little exposure by taking it to Dirtfest for him and show some of the fat bike guys how much more fun one of these can be with a little help. Anyway I'm kinda bummed but if they say no I guess I can't do anything. I sent an email to Dirtrag telling them about the bike and they very rudely instructed me not to bring bike and it would be trouble for me if I brought the bike. The only thing that stinks is that in the State of PA an ebike with less than a 750w motor (I have a 600) is legally defined the same as a bicycle and is allowed on state lands that a bike is allowed on. I'm feeling kinda railroaded but don't want to cause a fuss.
> 
> And yes that bike has a front drive geared electric wheel and an internally geared rear hub powered strictly by the pedals.


PA laws are irrelevant in this case. Just like the new law in CA as it pertains to federal land there. See this post:



evasive said:


> According to the post and link above, the event is on Army Corps of Engineers (i.e. federal) property, rather than state property.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

evasive said:


> According to the post and link above, the event is on Army Corps of Engineers (i.e. federal) property, rather than state property.


 Then that settles it.


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## Mr Cabletwitch (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm guessing federal land the ebike is a no go across the board?

I'm just a guy that wanted to ride my fat bike on the fat bike ride Saturday, and I thought someone from the magazine might think it was cool. Guess I was wrong. I have no problem with their decision just a little bummed that they are so limiting when its such a lower power bike.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> I'm guessing federal land the ebike is a no go across the board?
> 
> I'm just a guy that wanted to ride my fat bike on the fat bike ride Saturday, and I thought someone from the magazine might think it was cool. Guess I was wrong. I have no problem with their decision just a little bummed that they are so limiting when its such a lower power bike.


Just out of curiosity, that uses a throttle not pedal assist right?


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> I'm guessing federal land the ebike is a no go across the board?
> 
> I'm just a guy that wanted to ride my fat bike on the fat bike ride Saturday, and I thought someone from the magazine might think it was cool. Guess I was wrong. I have no problem with their decision just a little bummed that they are so limiting when its such a lower power bike.


Then turn that frustration into targeted advocacy to improve the access of your defacto motorized vehicle. Regardless of what any individual's personal like or dislike of ebikes may be the majority of non motorized trails are on federal lands and their rules are often used as guidance for state and local governments.

Continuing to say but they are low power means nothing, I have no argument with ebikes creating worse trail degradation, because low or high has no bearing as all ebikes are motorized. This is not only a common sense definition, it is also the current regulatory definition (hint the latter is the only that matters).

So to summarize, advocate for ebike access or be an elitist poacher hiding behind a firm misunderstanding of the ADA's OPDMD policy (ala rider95). Either way own your civil disobedience and be aware that your vehicle is not a bicycle and is treated differently, so no amount of equivocating will result in change to the status quo.

Ebikes could be the next ipod, but with the majority of ebikers seeming to create a persecution complex because thet do not have accross the board access to trails they "feel" they should I smell a betamax redux.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> I'm guessing federal land the ebike is a no go across the board?
> 
> I'm just a guy that wanted to ride my fat bike on the fat bike ride Saturday, and I thought someone from the magazine might think it was cool. Guess I was wrong. I have no problem with their decision just a little bummed that they are so limiting when its such a lower power bike.


 You can ride your fat bike there, just one without a motor. The trails there are awesome, like a smooth pump track through the woods. I went in 2010 and hosted a bourbon tasting. The event vibe is great, lots of bike demos and such, I think they even have a beer sponsor now.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> I'm just a guy that wanted to ride my fat bike on the fat bike ride Saturday, .


Ummm...so what's stopping you from leaving your e-bike home and doing exactly that?


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## Mr Cabletwitch (Apr 16, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm...so what's stopping you from leaving your e-bike home and doing exactly that?


Wanna loan me one?

The only fatbike I have has a 600 watt motor in the front of it. Its no big deal I'll ride my niner all weekend.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

They will have all kinds of demos there. Just check out the show info page.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Velocipedist said:


> Ebikes could be the next ipod, but ...


I like this analogy; I'll re-word it "Ebikes could be the next iPhone" and let that lead to "There are places ePhones are not welcome; fine restaurants, movie theaters, the symphony..." Simple politeness.

Of course at a rock concert or NASCAR race nobody will give a damn. (about the ePhone)

The "woods" are different; I'm beginning to see that using e-bikes is some "woods" is simply being impolite. Not really hurting anything physically but annoying to the status quo. Affecting the expectations of other visitors wanting a "human-powered" experience.

Take your e-bike where it's welcome.

Motorized vehicles OK; e-bikes OK.

If you've got to fart; please leave the dining area.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> Wanna loan me one?
> 
> The only fatbike I have has a 600 watt motor in the front of it. Its no big deal I'll ride my niner all weekend.


We thought it was your buddy's bike that you posted?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

pliebenberg said:


> I like this analogy; I'll re-word it "Ebikes could be the next iPhone" and let that lead to "There are places ePhones are not welcome; fine restaurants, movie theaters, the symphony..." Simple politeness.
> 
> Of course at a rock concert or NASCAR race nobody will give a damn. (about the ePhone)
> 
> ...


 So your arguement against ebikes is based upon your being of a better class of person? What a freaking snob! The entire post drips with class based condescension........

I am so sorry your "status quo" and "expectations" happened to be "annoyed" by those rude ebikes. It is such a shame that you and those of your "polite society" should have to share the woods with ebikes since their very presence in such a place is offensive to such refined persons. It's a good thing those sorts usually keep to their rock concerts or NASCAR races and don't bother their social betters at their fine restaurants and symphonies, otherwise, I just can't imagine how you could bear it.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> So your arguement against ebikes is based upon your being of a better class of person? What a freaking snob! The entire post drips with class based condescension........
> 
> I am so sorry your "status quo" and "expectations" happened to be "annoyed" by those rude ebikes. It is such a shame that you and those of your "polite society" should have to share the woods with ebikes since their very presence in such a place is offensive to such refined persons. It's a good thing those sorts usually keep to their rock concerts or NASCAR races and don't bother their social betters at their fine restaurants and symphonies, otherwise, I just can't imagine how you could bear it.


I happen to have an e-bike and know that it doesn't belong on non-motorized trails. It's not a matter of one class being better than another; it's about one class having respect for the other.

What I'm seeing here (e-bike world) is that these new-comers have no respect for the hard fought trail access won for "just plain" bikes.

E-bikes have there place; just not in areas where the expectation is for muscle power.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I happen to ride a e bike due to me being handicap and after 8yrs I can ride the trails again e bikes are perfect for the trail, But to a lot of e haters on here the joy and freedom that I get from it is not what concerns them . No its annoying to the status quo and how a e bike might make them feel insecure, now thats much more important then letting a handicap person have a little fun .


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

rider95 said:


> I happen to ride a e bike due to me being handicap and after 8yrs I can ride the trails again e bikes are perfect for the trail, But to a lot of e haters on here the joy and freedom that I get from it is not what concerns them . No its annoying to the status quo and how a e bike might make them feel insecure, now thats much more important then letting a handicap person have a little fun .


I've never met an e-bike hater that has had any problem with somebody with a _legitimate_ handicap from enjoying non-motorized trails on an e-bike.

We're hating against the fat and lazy (or _skinny and lazy_) who think it's their "right" to "have fun too".

Go have fun on a motorized trail.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> I happen to ride a e bike due to me being handicap and after 8yrs I can ride the trails again e bikes are perfect for the trail, But to a lot of e haters on here the joy and freedom that I get from it is not what concerns them . No its annoying to the status quo and how a e bike might make them feel insecure, now thats much more important then letting a handicap person have a little fun .


Do you carry an ADA card?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Is 'terminal whiner' your diagnosis by any chance?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes I do I ride with it displayed you can see it in my pic do you pull the wings off of flys for fun?? WE are off subject the OP . I would still attend the fat tire with my e bike cant you still ride the roads?? lots of fat bike demos ask the vendors if theay are coming out with a e bike, ride yours around you cant ride the trails but they cant stop you from riding everywhere elise. you might be surprised at how friendly some of them will be, not at all like the Dangerously Dumb and the e haters on here . Your friend is handicap he's not a criminal don't let anyone treat you as so above all be polite hang out and talk to ppl our day is coming . Now fed land is different if its city or county park you are better off I just won a dispute with Lucas oil stadium over my use of a elec two wheel scooter inside the dome a Dangerously Dumb person with a wakitalki had a problem with first my scooter then me lol in the end I won , what other ppl take for granted can sometimes be all but impossible for a handicap person .


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

just go and ride the trails. film it all and do a post ride report with uploaded video here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Yes I do I ride with it displayed you can see it in my pic do you pull the wings off of flys for fun?? WE are off subject the OP . I would still attend the fat tire with my e bike cant you still ride the roads?? lots of fat bike demos ask the vendors if theay are coming out with a e bike, ride yours around you cant ride the trails but they cant stop you from riding everywhere elise. you might be surprised at how friendly some of them will be, not at all like the Dangerously Dumb and the e haters on here . Your friend is handicap he's not a criminal don't let anyone treat you as so above all be polite hang out and talk to ppl our day is coming . Now fed land is different if its city or county park you are better off I just won a dispute with Lucas oil stadium over my use of a elec two wheel scooter inside the dome a Dangerously Dumb person with a wakitalki had a problem with first my scooter then me lol in the end I won , what other ppl take for granted can sometimes be all but impossible for a handicap person .


The distinction between legitimate OPMD use and purely recreational use has been accepted and acknowledged by pretty much everyone. Seriously. If someone has a disability, please, do what you need to do to get out there. That sort of easement will never have an effect on access.


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> The distinction between legitimate OPMD use and purely recreational use has been accepted and acknowledged by pretty much everyone. Seriously. If someone has a disability, please, do what you need to do to get out there. That sort of easement will never have an effect on access.


Except the opdmd exemption requires the mobility devices to be explicitly designed for the disabled and furthermore it be intended for indoor use. Ebikes fail this and cannot be classified as Other Power Driven Mobility Device. The disabled have equal access not greater, so they are still restricted in using ebikes on non-motorized trails lest all of the public be granted the same ebike access due to the inherently public nature of said trails.

The only potential caveat being an indoor friendly disabled specific mobility device, if one intends to legally ride on a non motorized trail, and even then final discretionary authority resides with the local land manager.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

We are off topic you cant get by the hate you have no experience with this none but of course that doesn't keep you from spewing your hate , you are wrong in your statement and I have the paper work to prove it .


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Pretty much gone off topic, some good, some bad. Let's keep it positive and go forward to help others.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Velocipedist said:


> Except the opdmd exemption requires the mobility devices to be explicitly designed for the disabled and furthermore it be intended for indoor use. Ebikes fail this and cannot be classified as Other Power Driven Mobility Device. The disabled have equal access not greater, so they are still restricted in using ebikes on non-motorized trails lest all of the public be granted the same ebike access due to the inherently public nature of said trails.
> 
> The only potential caveat being an indoor friendly disabled specific mobility device, if one intends to legally ride on a non motorized trail, and even then final discretionary authority resides with the local land manager.


Per my conversations in the past with ADA administrators specializing in trail access issues, the restrictions you mention are limited to indoor facilities, not trails. They are meant to keep people from riding an ATV through a mall, not to keep motor assist bikes off trails. Pretty sure we've already discussed this in detail and I had pointed specifically where your misunderstanding lies.

Think about it - what sense does it make to limit someone to only use a vehicle designed for indoor use on the trails? None whatsoever. Also, land managers do not have discretion to pick and choose vehicles or deny any disabled access unless they go through a series of very specific steps to do a trail inventory and spell out precisely why certain vehicles aren't allowed on certain trails. Barring that, a disabled person can take pretty much anything they want on a public hiking trail.

Again, this is based on a number of conversations, both email and phone, that I personally had with ADA experts during a years-long trail access battle I went through awhile back.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> We are off topic you cant get by the hate you have no experience with this none but of course that doesn't keep you from spewing your hate , you are wrong in your statement and I have the paper work to prove it .


I hate whiners.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Velocipedist said:


> Except the opdmd exemption requires the mobility devices to be explicitly designed for the disabled and furthermore it be intended for indoor use. Ebikes fail this and cannot be classified as Other Power Driven Mobility Device. The disabled have equal access not greater, so they are still restricted in using ebikes on non-motorized trails lest all of the public be granted the same ebike access due to the inherently public nature of said trails.
> 
> The only potential caveat being an indoor friendly disabled specific mobility device, if one intends to legally ride on a non motorized trail, and even then final discretionary authority resides with the local land manager.


Where did you get that from?

I've seen an USFS document that states similar but it looks like a ADA lawsuit waiting to happen.

Those readers who'd like to gain an informed view on OPDMD should go here: ADA Requirements: Wheelchairs, Mobility Aids, and Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices

This is one of the paragraphs from same:



> In addition, covered entities must allow people with disabilities who use any OPDMD to enter the premises unless a particular type of device cannot be accommodated because of legitimate safety requirements. *Such safety requirements must be based on actual risks, not on speculation or stereotypes* about a particular type of device or how it might be operated by people with disabilities using them.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I am pretty sure calling me a whiner is off topic


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I am pretty sure calling me a whiner is off topic


I'm pretty sure the constant disjointed rambles about your persecution complex are also off topic. Give it a frigging break. You're a victim of nothing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Velocipedist said:


> Except the opdmd exemption requires the mobility devices to be explicitly designed for the disabled and furthermore it be intended for indoor use. Ebikes fail this and cannot be classified as Other Power Driven Mobility Device. The disabled have equal access not greater, so they are still restricted in using ebikes on non-motorized trails lest all of the public be granted the same ebike access due to the inherently public nature of said trails.
> 
> The only potential caveat being an indoor friendly disabled specific mobility device, if one intends to legally ride on a non motorized trail, and even then final discretionary authority resides with the local land manager.


I see now where you got this - the guidelines you mention only apply to Wilderness areas.

https://www.wilderness.net/toolboxes/documents/accessibility/wild_access_decision_tool.pdf


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I see now where you got this - the guidelines you mention only apply to Wilderness areas.
> 
> https://www.wilderness.net/toolboxes/documents/accessibility/wild_access_decision_tool.pdf


But they don't as we are talking about federal lands and the Forest services distinction between OPDMD and ebikes, which comes from a link I know you have posted in other threads:
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf

Specifically: (bold for easier reading)



> Disability and Motorized Devices
> 
> Questions have been raised in relation to people with disabilities requesting use of e-bikes as an assistive device. * The only exception for a person with a disability for use of a device that is selfpropelled is if that device meets both parts of the legal definition of a wheelchair or mobility device as defined above in 36 CFR 212.1 and also defined the same way in FSM 2353.05 and in 42 U.S.C. 12107. Under that definition any device that is both designed solely for mobility for a person with disability and which is suitable for use on an indoor pedestrian may be used anywhere foot travel is allowed. E-bikes were not solely designed for individuals who have mobility impairments and their suitability for indoor use would be highly questionable. *
> 
> ...


So while I do not discount your conversations with ADA experts , I yield to the lawyers at the DOJ and the Forest Service that ebikes do not qualify as OPDMD, exceptions are not allowed. So while a potential lawsuit is always a possibility the DOJ and FS have rules dating back to 2010 and that precedent would be quite the hurdle to overcome.

Ebikes do not qualify as mobility devices "currently" so none of the ADA rules concerning motorized scooters/3wheelers apply.

My main beef is more along the lines that the some of ebike posters ( hi rider95 ) here actively engage in civil disobedience by illegally riding their ebikes on non motorized trails, be they federal or state DNR lands that
use the TMR as basis for their regulations, and promote that as the way forward and we "ehaters" need to pipe down and all will be well. And rather than accept and embrace their civil disobedience, hide behind a misunderstanding of the ADA and claim an exemption that explicitly does not exist.

Sorry to burst that delusional bubble, but no lack of advocacy is going to relegate this "pet rock" fad
to the towering pile of societies technolgical detrius, not mine and others referenced reasoned arguments as to their current regulation and classification.

If they really think they are bikes and want to act like downhillers and freeriders of yesteryear they need to embrace their outlaw status, not equivocate by claiming non existent exemptions from federal laws they like (ADA) while ignoring federal rules they dislike (FS TMR).

Ebikers embrace your civil disobedience, and practice the very American prerogative of "do as I say not as I do" when interacting with potential converts to your electrical ways, otherwise not only are you not a bicycle by definition, but you fail utterly in understanding the culture and history of MTBs, the user group you claim to be a member of.

The cognitive dissonance runs deep.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

why don't you two get a room since your the only ones that care about this lol


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> why don't you two get a room since your the only ones that care about this lol


Seeing as you are the one with an ADA card, and you've already admitted to riding illegally in other areas, you might want to understand the rules.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> why don't you two get a room since your the only ones that care about this lol


Funny, I've got more positive rep from these last few posts on the subject than you have...well, ever. Another great contribution on your part though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Velocipedist said:


> ..snip....


I'd be interested in taking a look at those talking points you referenced - any chance you have a link handy? I can dig them up otherwise I'm sure, just figured it might save me some time. 
thx


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'd be interested in taking a look at those talking points you referenced - any chance you have a link handy? I can dig them up otherwise I'm sure, just figured it might save me some time.
> thx


Sure here you go:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WoMZIo_Kw2olT51pA&sig2=xrIfnr9miJPRaWGS6gV5yw

After rereading your reply I see you meant the actual talking points the Forest Service would ostentiably use to explain with care and nuance why a disabled persons ebike does not meant the OPDMD or within a non motorized trails mananged or designed uses. Apologies for my lack of google fu.


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> We are off topic you cant get by the hate you have no experience with this none but of course that doesn't keep you from spewing your hate , you are wrong in your statement and I have the *paper work to prove it *.


Is it written in crayon? 

Internet civilities aside, I would be curious to see the paperwork and would happily shut the **** up regards your superior civil disobedience brah. Going by what you have posted on endless-sphere I am going to wager you don't have paperwork for all the haunts you like to habit with your e-enrager/e-emasculator/e"bike"

And since I am naivelly hopeful, my queries to you sir are thus:

What are you claiming by invoking the ADA like some mystic talisman?

Are you claiming ebikes qualify as an Other Powered Driven Mobility Devices?

Or perhaps even more incredulously a mobility scooter?

While we are at it what is your definition of hate?

As the role of victim troll you excel, perhaps the tinfoil hat is picking up charge from your ebike you may want take that off and those rose colored glasses may have affected your perception of reality and your ability to enage those with *gasp* different ideas that talk about existing rules and regulations and reference documents issued by the largest land manager itself, commonly known as facts, that explicitly create the logical framework for our argument regarding Ebikes on nonmotorized trails:

closed unless open
local exceptions can exist check with the managing agency before you ride 
Do not promote civil disobidience on trails as a form of advocacy
Enjoy thousands of miles of Legal OHV trails to your heart's content
Advocate for ebikes do not equivocate

Damn dude you were right pure hate speech for sure, what was I thinking....ut:


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

A little holier than thou are we?? no no no hate here no you don't sound like snobs do you ?? your last 10 post have nothing to do with The OP now do they. Every time we try and have a discussion about ANYTHING the village idiot hijacks to whine against E bikes


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I was told I couldn't bring my bike to dirtfest 2016 was the OP not if I am a Troll or what my disability is .


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> I was told I couldn't bring my bike to dirtfest 2016 was the OP not if I am a Troll or what my disability is .


So why did you bring it up then?


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## Mr Cabletwitch (Apr 16, 2009)

WOW, just WOW, didn't realize there was so much drama about ebikes. I took my friend's bike up to the cabin and had a blast with it on the dirt roads and private forest around the cabin. It's fun but just a novelty I'd ride my regular mountain bike 99% of the time if I had an ebike, but I am considering adding a motor to my city bike. It would make accelerating in traffic so much easier I'm a mile outside the city so traffic is ruthless coming in and out. A small power electric hub would actually be a lot safer.

I didn't take it to Dirtfest, it wouldn't have been fun anyway. Friday the trails were packed so it would have been a mess and Saturday it was raining all day. I would have demoed a fat bike but all the companies wouldn't let demos out in the rain. 

Sorry to stir things up didn't realize it was such a big deal, I've been off the forum for a while so I could get some actual riding in.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Its not a big deal you like me and others have found what a blast e bikes are and the good they do , did you ask DirtFest too?? next time just show up with your E bike and just ride around the vendors .


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Its not a big deal you like me and others have found what a blast e bikes are and the good they do , did you ask DirtFest too?? next time just show up with your E bike and just ride around the vendors .


 After being specifically told not to bring one? I'm sure that would go over well.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> After being specifically told not to bring one? I'm sure that would go over well.


 He was told not to bring it on the trails...... I believe they allow diesel trucks into the vendor area, will an ebike be considered offensive in comparison there?


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> Its not a big deal you like me and others have found what a blast e bikes are and the good they do , did you ask DirtFest too?? *next time just show up with your E bike and just ride around the vendors* .


Great idea after he asked and they said no...

Does the e in e-bike stand for entitlement?

Of course he would be legal to ride everything there that isn't non motorized, a distinction you not only ignore but derisively belittle and flaunt, until called out on and then attempt to use other federal laws that you do like to justify your actions.

And a major difference between the birth of MTBs and ebikes is the prevelance of the internet and the likelyhood of ebikers to be more technically savvy leading to potential exponential growth rather than the much more linear growth of MTBs. See SoCal and Big Bear for the effects in the past of such growth.

Fight club is recommended viewing.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Lighten up Haters he just cant ride with everyone on the trails he is free to ride anywere else, show the vendors your bike enjoy the festival buy stuff talk to ppl ie just do what any Mt biker does . You wont find the hate you do here havefun!!!!!!


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Do you carry an ADA card?


Do you carry an able-bodied card?

(If you don't understand the question, a quick read of the ADA might be enlightening.)


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Velocipedist said:


> Great idea after he asked and they said no...
> 
> Does the e in e-bike stand for entitlement?
> 
> ...


 The sense of entitlement is best displayed by MTBers whose fee-fees are so tender that they cannot even bear the sight of an ebike amongst the gas and diesel support vehicles in the vendors area and parking lots. And then expect the rest of the world to accommodate them. Boo-hoo.......


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

WH, seems like most of those who are totally against ebikes have never ridden one (think how they would whine if we decried something we had never tested) and are on this forum. The guys in SoCal, while being wary of what ebikes might do to trail access, actually make cogent, reasoned responses; some are becoming converts. Of course, now we'll get comments from the elite about Californians. Funny thing, sometimes other states look to CA for guidance and adopt our laws.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fos'l said:


> WH, seems like most of those who are totally against ebikes have never ridden one (think how they would whine if we decried something we had never tested) and are on this forum. The guys in SoCal, while being wary of what ebikes might do to trail access, actually make cogent, reasoned responses; some are becoming converts. Of course, now we'll get comments from the elite about Californians. Funny thing, sometimes other states look to CA for guidance and adopt our laws.


 Apparently, arriving at an MTB event on an ebike is worse than getting there in a diesel truck! What was that about opposition to ebikes being based upon reasoned rational NON-EMOTIONAL arguements?


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

So since Dirt Rag backed the event and does testing of e-Bikes, then between now and next year we need to talk with sponsors and get e-bikes on the roster.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

While I could care less who rides what on a dirt road or in a parking lot, or what bikes DirtRag likes or hates, I do feel compelled to point out the trails are still on federal land and are non motorized.

You might try to persuede them to hold it somewhere else?


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

WoodlandHills said:


> The sense of entitlement is best displayed by MTBers whose fee-fees are so tender that they cannot even bear the sight of an ebike amongst the gas and diesel support vehicles in the vendors area and parking lots. And then expect the rest of the world to accommodate them. Boo-hoo.......


Missing the forest for trees I see. I don't care about ebikes on trails, I would prefer that ebikers are aware of their motorized status and work to change that rather than assume it will come to pass.

Pop culture reference too oblique? Own your civil disobedience embrace your outlaw nature rip trails have fun and shut the **** up.

Using the Internet megaphone to promote illegal behavior while intentionally obfuscating current regulations to new ebikers, thinking that is a form of advocacy which will lead to more access is an interesting perspective and glaringly shows how little you know let alone understand from MTBs access trials and tribulations since their introduction.

What worked before worked because of the unique conditions that existed at that time. Do not underestimate the ability of the marginal outliers that thanks to the virality of the internetz can easily kill your baby (eMTB) in its crib before a civil conversation even begins.

Do you really want those folks as allies? Because by not advising and educating them, you are not only complicit in their choices most outside observers would perceive tacit support.

Remedial reading comprehension required? I acknowledged that the OP would be fine off the trails, my recommendation was based solely on his stating that the organizer responded in such a rude and juvenile manner that the environment itself would be hostile to his ebike being there. Which I agree is sad, because it would have been a great chance to show people what they look feel and ride like. Pick your battles I suppose.

I look forward to change in federal regulations concerning ebikes hopefully it is the change you want and not further restrictions which would continue the downward spiral and hasten eMTBs death while it is learning to crawl.

Be your own best friend not your own worst enemy your future access is pecarious at best.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Harryman said:


> While I could care less who rides what on a dirt road or in a parking lot, or what bikes DirtRag likes or hates, I do feel compelled to point out the trails are still on federal land and are non motorized.
> 
> You might try to persuede them to hold it somewhere else?


 Unlikely, the Rays Town lake trails are just awesome, like a pump track trough the woods. Swimming, camping, lots and lots of trails, there and nearby. Perfect for a mt bike festival. The trails are machine built of smooth red/clay dirt. Did I mention awesome?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Thankyou village Idiot for repeating another long winded line of BS by one of the best E haters one this forum.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Haters going to hate. Mt bikers, wait, are just going to mountain bike. Me, going to do a mixed commute home, dirt + pave. Best? Seem like we have a long line here. And the trails are truly epic. Epic. No motors allowed. Guess leg power will suffice. That and some iced coffee.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Wait. Did we ever decide, was the question in regards to "a friend"? Or was it the OP?
I'm slightly confused.


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## Mr Cabletwitch (Apr 16, 2009)

chuckha62 said:


> Wait. Did we ever decide, was the question in regards to "a friend"? Or was it the OP?
> I'm slightly confused.


It's definitely my friend's bike in fact I'm taking it back to him as soon as I'm done with work. I referred to it as my bike because it was in my possession. What on earth could I gain from lying about who's bike it was.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Thanks Dirt Rag :thumbsup:


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Good Job DirtRag!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Mr Cabletwitch said:


> What on earth could I gain from lying about who's bike it was.


Was wondering the same thing, yet it seemed that your posts indicated both ways is all.


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