# Gotta be asked - Why all the worry over legislation?



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Do you guys seriously think a beat cop or traffic cop really knows the difference between a 250W and a 500W or 750W motor?

When it comes down to it, your motor might actually be a 750W and the guy over seas selling it just printed and listed it as 500W so you'd buy it over another vendors motor, or kit. Same goes for you 250W worriers.

I listened to Justin Lemire-Elmore on youtube explain it this way. There is no set wattage for a motor, there needs to be an RPM attached to it. He also made a great explanation, comparing a person in the wild woods and a bear. When you are just walking in the woods, you are putting out 150 watts continuously, when you are casually jogging in the woods you are putting out 350 watts for an hour or two, but when a bear comes, you may put out 750 watts for 25 minutes.

I hope I can find the video for you.
I am pretty sure its in this video




go to 5 minutes 30 seconds and listen.
11 minutes 50 seconds is the juicy part!

Key words, its a dynamic variable dependant on other factors!


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Why worry about smog legislation if you can just remove your cat converters and put them back on for your smog check? Free horsepower!

Because the vast majority of people will buy stock vehicles and keep them stock for life. Same goes with ebikes.

Class designation in ebike laws places responsibility on the manufacturers.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

THat is why I will never agree to ebikes on my trails. I will go to every meeting and tell the land managers to ban them all, all the time. Thank you for reminding me.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

EricTheDood said:


> Why worry about smog legislation if you can just remove your cat converters and put them back on for your smog check? Free horsepower!
> 
> Because the vast majority of people will buy stock vehicles and keep them stock for life. Same goes with ebikes.
> 
> Class designation in ebike laws places responsibility on the manufacturers.


But unfortunately, the bike manufacturers are not responsible. They know that speed sells and they build bikes with plenty more power that can easily be modified with a little software, wink, wink. I have to pay a fee once a year to have my car checked to be sure it stills meets regulations. Would ebike owners be willing to go through that type of regulation? They could have an on board computer record maximum speed assist, etc to show if they had been modified at some point. But who is going to check to see if the ebike has had its annual check? - Cars and ebikes are not a good comparison.


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## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

I have finally found a sport that is more hated than my dirt bike. I should have my Kenevo is 2 weeks I have been told. Can't wait to try this new form of mountain biking out for myself and make an informed conclusion.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

stevenfallover said:


> I have finally found a sport that is more hated than my dirt bike. I should have my Kenevo is 2 weeks I have been told. Can't wait to try this new form of mountain biking out for myself and make an informed conclusion.


As long as you're respecting the regulations regarding trail designations, then all should be well.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

chazpat said:


> But unfortunately, the bike manufacturers are not responsible. They know that speed sells and they build bikes with plenty more power that can easily be modified with a little software, wink, wink. I have to pay a fee once a year to have my car checked to be sure it stills meets regulations... Cars and ebikes are not a good comparison.


You're talking like car companies don't do shady **** to get more horsepower and still pass regulations. Why wouldn't ebike makers? What if Volkswagen starts making ebikes?


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## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

Crankout said:


> As long as you're respecting the regulations regarding trail designations, then all should be well.


Like I said, a sport that is more hated than anything I have yet seen. I want everyone to like what I like, otherwise stay off my trails.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

singletrackmack said:


> You're talking like car companies don't do shady **** to get more horsepower and still pass regulations. Why wouldn't ebike makers? What if Volkswagen starts making ebikes?


I think that is what I said, ebike manufacturers will not act responsibly, they are concerned with how much they can sell. It's just not a good comparison between cars and ebikes; though if your point is that car manufacturers will also try to get around regulations, VW did prove that to be correct.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

stevenfallover said:


> I have finally found a sport that is more hated than my dirt bike. I should have my Kenevo is 2 weeks I have been told. Can't wait to try this new form of mountain biking out for myself and make an informed conclusion.


 Mountain bikes don't have motors. You mean" battery powered motor assist riding" on a motorized vehicle.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I don't know but I'm feeling like emtb's are just a bad experiment in marketing and serves no purpose but to disenfranchise mountain bikers from legitimate trail use. Who are the marketers really selling these products to? The technically fit who are looking to take it easy now and then or the unfit wanting to take a spin around the mountain for a quick joy ride? In either case the potential buyer probably has better options than an emtb, while the only advantage an emtb could potentially provide them is the ability to ride along with their buddies on a mountain bike accessible trail. Otherwise they could buy themselves a faster (cheaper) alternative ebike/mx bike that would get them around much faster and with a lot less work.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They are fun and different. Us consumers didn’t bring them to the market place... But I keep an open mind and like all forms of pedaling. To each his own.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> They different.


Yes, they are different than bicycles.


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## stevenfallover (Jun 5, 2004)

Gutch said:


> They are fun and different. Us consumers didn't bring them to the market place... But I keep an open mind and like all forms of pedaling. To each his own.


You got that right. I will park my Kenevo beside my Yeti 4.5 and my KTM 300 xc-w and all my other fun toys. I love choice.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Ironically, for all those ebikers who complain about the Class 1-3 legislation, and there are many on ebike sites, it's really the best shot they have to ride them in the future, as there isn't a land manager who will allow ebikes and especially emtbs without clear defnitions and restrictions. Claiming that poaching and riding a high powered "ebike" is a viable strategy that will work moving forward is only true if no one else rides an ebike in the places you'd like to ride. If they become popular, enforcement will begin.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> I don't know but I'm feeling like emtb's are just a bad experiment in marketing and serves no purpose but to disenfranchise mountain bikers from legitimate trail use. Who are the marketers really selling these products to? The technically fit who are looking to take it easy now and then or the unfit wanting to take a spin around the mountain for a quick joy ride? In either case the potential buyer probably has better options than an emtb, while the only advantage an emtb could potentially provide them is the ability to ride along with their buddies on a mountain bike accessible trail. Otherwise they could buy themselves a faster (cheaper) alternative ebike/mx bike that would get them around much faster and with a lot less work.


You are clearly anti-ebike, and you admitted you've never even ridden one. Your statements show that you have no idea what an eMTB is or what it is good for.

Hate to break it to you, but the majority of MTB riders are not measuring their heart rate, trying to beat a Strava time, or giving a crap how many calories they burn. I raced MTBs and road bikes for 30 years, I got over all of that. Now, I ride because I like to RIDE. A bike that gives me the ability to cover more trail, see more stuff, launch more waterbars, in the same amount of time as I would cover 1/2 the distance on an MTB? Sign me up.

I've done the dirt bike thing, in fact I still have one. I have no desire to wrestle a 250lb enduro bike around the trails any more. They cost more to buy, more to operate, more to maintain. You have to get plates and insurance if you want to bridge between trails on the road. You need a trailer to haul them. They eat tires, chains and batteries, and you drop one once and you are likely looking at $$$ to fix it. They die in the woods 10 miles from the trailhead and you spend hours trying to recover them. You go over the handlebars and you get the impact of hitting the ground followed by the impact of 250lb landing on you.

An eMTB is the perfect solution. No gas/oil/coolant, no trailer, no license/insurance, and if the battery dies or something minor breaks, I can ride it out. It uses standard bike parts and I can fix it myself instead of hauling it to an asshole motorcycle dealer who charges $125 an hour. An eMTB is quiet so if I want to ride it around my neighborhood no one cares. I can commute to work on the bike path.

Keep barking at the moon. In a couple of years, *every* bicycle manufacturer *and* motorcycle manufacturer will be making eBikes on which you can drop the motor and battery in two minutes to ride it as a regular MTB, and snap on the motor and battery when you feel like it. You'll buy the *same* bike whether you want an MTB or eMTB, you'll just have the option of buying the motor/battery/controller if you want it.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

stevenfallover said:


> Like I said, a sport that is more hated than anything I have yet seen. I want everyone to like what I like, otherwise stay off my trails.


Darn regulations.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> You are clearly anti-ebike, and you admitted you've never even ridden one. Your statements show that you have no idea what an eMTB is or what it is good for.
> 
> Hate to break it to you, but the majority of MTB riders are not measuring their heart rate, trying to beat a Strava time, or giving a crap how many calories they burn. I raced MTBs and road bikes for 30 years, I got over all of that. Now, I ride because I like to RIDE. A bike that gives me the ability to cover more trail, see more stuff, launch more waterbars, in the same amount of time as I would cover 1/2 the distance on an MTB? Sign me up.
> 
> ...


If you are going the same distance in half the time, and downhill speeds are the same or slower, I guess that uphill speeds are twice as fast. Most of my rides are shorter uphill than down(distance wise). I take the quickest way up and the longest way down. That is my problem, that I have with ebikes. Too fast uphill.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> If you are going the same distance in half the time, and downhill speeds are the same or slower, I guess that uphill speeds are twice as fast. Most of my rides are shorter uphill than down(distance wise). I take the quickest way up and the longest way down. That is my problem, that I have with ebikes. Too fast uphill.


Directional access can help avoid that issue: up fireroads, down singletrack.

Note I said "help" because of course people will break the rules. That said, trail access is largely based on the honor system to begin with.

Might be better to keep the laws vague and perpetually keep ebikers on their toes. If an e-MTBer is aware he's poaching a trail, he'll likely do it in a way that avoids any traces of his presence. As long as an e-MTBer knows his local trails and times things correctly, he can avoid passing anyone and will never get passed.

Then again, it's still poaching. Is that better or worse than granting e-bike access and having it snowball out of control? There's no easy solution.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> You are clearly anti-ebike, and you admitted you've never even ridden one. Your statements show that you have no idea what an eMTB is or what it is good for.
> 
> Hate to break it to you, but the majority of MTB riders are not measuring their heart rate, trying to beat a Strava time, or giving a crap how many calories they burn. I raced MTBs and road bikes for 30 years, I got over all of that. Now, I ride because I like to RIDE. A bike that gives me the ability to cover more trail, see more stuff, launch more waterbars, in the same amount of time as I would cover 1/2 the distance on an MTB? Sign me up.
> 
> ...


So what's the point of this wall of text? So you want to be able to ride a motorized bike on the same trails as regular mountain bikes? Otherwise why the desire to make e-mountain bikes look as non-threatening as possible by introducing these mythical standards like 250w, 20mph limit, no throttle? We all know these standards impossible to police. You can ride you ebike where ever they're allowed (ie motorized trails) no one is arguing against your right to do so. SO what are you so upset about? Anti-bike me? Hardly, I think ebikes are great in the right places. Riding along my mountain bike on a MUT trail is not one of those places unfortunately.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

EricTheDood said:


> Directional access can help avoid that issue: up fireroads, down singletrack.
> 
> Note I said "help" because of course people will break the rules. That said, trail access is largely based on the honor system to begin with.
> 
> ...


Directional and single user trails are one of those things that sound awesome and easy, yet aren't always and give some landmangers the willies. Mainly because, humans being humans, they will often ignore or completely be oblivious to signage, which leads to whoever is excluded from said trail still going up it, while mountain bikers, who are not expecting uphill traffic, are then of course, ripping down at max speed, leading to bad interactions. Even worse, trying to the change the staus of an existing trail is usually a recipe for pitchforks and torches.

I'm not saying it can't be done, or never works, but it takes planning and is usually a new build in a bike centric location.


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