# How bright is too bright?



## speedybacon (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm starting to look into a light for my bike and am curious how bright is too bright. I plan on riding on the streets at night so I don't want it to blind cars coming the opposite direction or in front of me. I see 900 lumins, 1600 lumins, I am leaning toward the magicshine lights. Any suggestions would be very huelpful.


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## ihaveagibsonsg (Nov 29, 2010)

speedybacon said:


> I'm starting to look into a light for my bike and am curious how bright is too bright. I plan on riding on the streets at night so I don't want it to blind cars coming the opposite direction or in front of me. I see 900 lumins, 1600 lumins, I am leaning toward the magicshine lights. Any suggestions would be very huelpful.


Point the light more towards the ground rather than at the cars. If I were you though I wouldn't be worried about blinding drivers, the purpose of the light is to be seen. You will be seen and they might go WTF THATS BRIGHT and forget about it as soon as they drive by.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

I've yet to see a light that doesn't have multiple settings. So, just like in your car you don't run the hi-beams in traffic... same w/ your lights.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

speedybacon said:


> I'm starting to look into a light for my bike and am curious how bright is too bright. I plan on riding on the streets at night so I don't want it to blind cars coming the opposite direction or in front of me. I see 900 lumins, 1600 lumins, I am leaning toward the magicshine lights. Any suggestions would be very huelpful.


For night road riding, look for a light with a lower power mode in the 500-600 lumen range. In the daytime, however, you want the brightest, widest beam you can afford, preferably in amber.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

As mentioned, even the brightest lights now have dimming options so it won't be a problem. Just go with what you can afford and buy from someone who will stand behind their product. Get two headlights for redundancy and preferably both the same brand b/c it is nice to have interchangeable parts, charger, etc. Also don't forget to have good tail lights also. I like to run two tail lights too. One flashing and one steady. For front lights, one bar and one helmet. For road riding I use mostly the bar light and keep the helmet light for when I need to get someones attention or see something the bar light doesn't cover. Or if there is no traffic around I run both and scan with the helmet light for critters that might come into my path.


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## krzysiekmz (Nov 10, 2009)

You want to be seen so do not worry about brightness. Many drivers do not worry about cyclist and other vehicles too with their Xenons, Xid's, halogens and whatever they want to run to be cool and bright. You will appriciate a good light too. 

Chris.


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## FirstRider1212 (Mar 5, 2012)

*light*

just make sure it inst pointing straight, rather down slightly


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## PhxChem (Aug 4, 2010)

speedybacon said:


> How bright is too bright?


If your eyes start bleeding...............you're halfway there....


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

speedybacon said:


> I'm starting to look into a light for my bike and am curious how bright is too bright. I plan on riding on the streets at night so I don't want it to blind cars coming the opposite direction or in front of me. I see 900 lumins, 1600 lumins, I am leaning toward the magicshine lights. Any suggestions would be very huelpful.


Basically your goal for riding road at night is to be seen and for you to see well enough so you can safely navigate the road in front of you. Depending on your personal needs you need to chose the beam pattern that best serves you. A lot depends on the roads you are riding and your personal riding style. I've found that a nice medium width beam with about a 500 to 700 lumen output makes for a nice bar mounted road light. For high speed descents ( with sharp turns ) you might want a bar/helmet light combo to help you see around the turns.

My current favorite for road is the basic and simple Magicshine MJ-808E. On high it gives you all the throw you need and with the standard OP reflector gives a nice over-all beam pattern. You can buy a brighter more expensive lamp but the 808E does the job without breaking the bank. When I ride road I also mount a torch on the helmet but usually I only turn it on when needed ( which is not much ).


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't think that until we get a single LED light that is brighter than two car headlights on high that we have it "too bright." A car headlight on a low beam is 1300 lumens (by law, I believe) out the front. Most LED lights with a few exceptions vastly overrate (to the point of being ridiculous) their lumen output. Magicshine is famous for overrating their output. Lupine is pretty accurate for what it's worth.

All lights I've used have multiple brightness settings.

Aiming is big deal as it is for car headlights. But properly aimed, anyone that complaints about 2600 lumens is pretty much just jealous since if they've ever ridden in a car at night that's what they always see coming at them. 

Most bike lights, except for the very bright ones, don't get any respect from cars. Unless you have really bright lights and they think you are something you aren't' (like another vehicle) you won't get much respect from lights in the sub 1000 lumen range. They'll see you for what you are - a bicycle. And we all know how that goes during the day and it's worse at night.

Now, on the other hand, if you ride with 2000 lumens out the front and a super bright flashing red light (ala Dinotte 400R) on the rear, you will experience a whole new set of visibility, driver respect and have a lot of fun riding at night.

J.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

something worth considering for street night riding is a helmet mounted light of 200+lms. Being able to shine a light directly into the side window of cars waiting at side roads or pulling out of driveways is an absolute life saver. I think my record is 4 stopped cars (that were pulling out but then stopped) in one commute home and my commute is only ~2 miles!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

mattthemuppet said:


> something worth considering for street night riding is a helmet mounted light of 200+lms. Being able to shine a light directly into the side window of cars waiting at side roads or pulling out of driveways is an absolute life saver. I think my record is 4 stopped cars (that were pulling out but then stopped) in one commute home and my commute is only ~2 miles!


Yep. Good idea. I agree. I ride with a Wilma on the bars and a Piko on the helmet or *exactly* this reason. Works fantastically well.

J.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

The light manufacturers produce all these powerful light systems because we want and buy them. It's still up to us top use them responsibly. Most all of these high powered light systems are produced with beam paterns designed for off road riding not traffic situations. If you shine your light on a wall and the beam pattern is round your 1000 lumen bike light is more blinding to on-comming traffic than a car with its low beams (high beams would be illegal in this situation). A Phillips Safe Light style system would be ideal, but there are eliptical lenses and what I use (Action wide angle lens) which flatten the beam and reduce the top spill to the point you can use higher powered lights safely. I have a new 1700 lumen Olympia which I don't ever plan on using on the road unless I can figure out how to mount one of these lenses to it, and even then I wouldn't run it on max power. I've seen other posts saying 500-700 lumens is a good power for a commuter light and I agree (for the street -off raod it's what ever you can afford).


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Just dim your lights when a car approaches. It's just not a big deal. But having too little light when you need it is.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> The light manufacturers produce all these powerful light systems because we want and buy them. It's still up to us top use them responsibly. Most all of these high powered light systems are produced with beam paterns designed for off road riding not traffic situations.* If you shine your light on a wall and the beam pattern is round your 1000 lumen bike light is more blinding to on-comming traffic than a car with its low beams (high beams would be illegal in this situation). A Phillips Safe Light style system would be ideal, but there are eliptical lenses and what I use (Action wide angle lens) which flatten the beam and reduce the top spill to the point you can use higher powered lights safely. *I have a new 1700 lumen Olympia which I don't ever plan on using on the road unless I can figure out how to mount one of these lenses to it, and even then I wouldn't run it on max power. I've seen other posts saying 500-700 lumens is a good power for a commuter light and I agree (for the street -off raod it's what ever you can afford).


I'm not sure I can agree that a 1000 lumen bike light ( with round beam pattern ) is going to be "Blinding" to on-coming vehicular traffic. In my line of work I sometimes log hundreds of miles a day/night behind the wheel of a car. I see few people with really bright bike lights. However just the other day I saw a guy with what I felt was a bright bike light ( on coming traffic ). I didn't see what brand he was using but it was bright, maybe about 800 lumen. Even though it was bright it didn't bother me at all. I only found it interesting. Besides he was past me in a matter of seconds.

Now with this said If there is one thing that does bother me while driving it is the high powered "Car Lights" that are becoming more prevalent. Sometimes I have to hold my hands up to block the light they are so bright. No bike light I've ever seen is anywhere near as bright ( or annoying ) as the new(er) car headlights.

I'm going to go along with *JohnJ80* on this. I want people to see me while riding at night. To do that you need a degree of brightness and side spill. Yes too much light/spill can be over-kill but that's why you dim the lights when called for and use only the amount of light needed to get the job done.

Someone mentioned the phenomenon of cars that flash their high-beams when approaching a bike with a bright light on. I think they are misinterpreting that reaction. I don't think they are being flashed because their bike lights are too bright. I beg to differ. I think ( most of the time ) that the on-coming cars are using their high-beams because they see something on the opposite side of the road with a bright light and they turn their high-beams on so they can see "just what the hell has the bright light on the other side of the road". Another scenario is that the on-coming vehicle hits their high-beam just because they want to see farther...period. In other words, "they are ignoring your presence and are using their high beams because they see no on-coming cars. Food for thought.

*MatttheMuppet wrote:*


> ..something worth considering for street night riding is a helmet mounted light of 200+lms. Being able to shine a light directly into the side window of cars waiting at side roads or pulling out of driveways is an absolute life saver. I think my record is 4 stopped cars (that were pulling out but then stopped) in one commute home and my commute is only ~2 miles!


Yep I agree. I take the principle a step farther and use my helmet mounted torch set on "strobe". Basically I only turn it on when needed. I preset the mode for strobe. When I see a dangerous situation I reach up and hit the "On" button. No way you can miss an XP-E torch when in strobe mode with it's narrow beam pattern. When I see I am in the clear I point the light away and reach up and turn it off.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> <snip....>
> *Someone mentioned the phenomenon of cars that flash their high-beams when approaching a bike with a bright light on. I think they are misinterpreting that reaction. I don't think they are being flashed because their bike lights are too bright. I beg to differ. I think ( most of the time ) that the on-coming cars are using their high-beams because they see something on the opposite side of the road with a bright light and they turn their high-beams on so they can see "just what the hell has the bright light on the other side of the road".* Another scenario is that the on-coming vehicle hits their high-beam just because they want to see farther...period. In other words, "they are ignoring your presence and are using their high beams because they see no on-coming cars. Food for thought.


I had an interesting thing happen to me with a cop. Two years back, I was running double sst-50 torches on my handlebar and a same torch on my helmet. These were the X Thrower sold by Shiningbeam. They had like 50 something mm diameter reflector.

I stopped at a major intersection waiting for a green where there was a police station at the other side. I was running all three torched on high. A car comming the other way went into his left turn only lane. I did not make out what kind of car it was at first but he flicked a spot light that was attached to his driver's door near his side mirror. That's when I realised it was a cop!

I then turn my handle bar away and toward the sidewalk, but I guess my helmet light still had his attention. He then left his spot light on and adjusted the aim lighting me up like a Christmas tree. As soon as he saw I was a cyclist, he turned his spotlight off and made his left turn in front of me without looking at me again. From what I gather, I think he thought I had a light on my roof of a car or rollbar on a pickup truck or something of that nature. That's about the only thing I can think of unless someone can figure something else.

There so many dumb founded drivers who still in the dark and not knowing how bright bicycle lights are these days. They see a tiny speck of white light originated from a small area and cannot figure out what it is. Most will slow down to see while other will keep staring until we pass each other out on the road. I think if those drivers are able to keep staring at me and my lights, then my lights cannot be too bright to irritate them.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> I had an interesting thing happen to me with a cop. Two years back, I was running double sst-50 torches on my handlebar and a same torch on my helmet. These were the X Thrower sold by Shiningbeam. They had like 50 something mm diameter reflector.
> 
> I stopped at a major intersection waiting for a green where there was a police station at the other side. I was running all three torched on high. A car comming the other way went into his left turn only lane. I did not make out what kind of car it was at first but he flicked a spot light that was attached to his driver's door near his side mirror. That's when I realised it was a cop!
> 
> I then turn my handle bar away and toward the sidewalk, but I guess my helmet light still had his attention. He then left his spot light on and adjusted the aim lighting me up like a Christmas tree. As soon as he saw I was a cyclist, he turned his spotlight off and made his left turn in front of me without looking at me again.....


Yep, makes my point even better. Sometimes people just got to know. Back in the day when I was still using halogen I still got the high beam treatment every now and then. People are just curious. Is it a motorcyle?...a moped ?....a pedestrian...Oh!...It's a bike! Wow! Is that bright or what!...Cool. :ihih:


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## ihaveagibsonsg (Nov 29, 2010)

I just got the niterider minewt 600 and man it is BRIGHT!!!!!!! I got it on sale at performance bike for 110$. I was riding home from the trails the other night and I saw a car hiding off the side of the road. My light was so bright it illuminated the reflective city crest on the side of the car and I immediately knew it was a police officer. I was probably 200 feet away too! It's a great great light, good burn times too.


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## bhc (Sep 27, 2005)

I saw that one mentioned a rear light, but don't forget to get something very bright for those coming up behind you. Easy to forget when we are used to being on a trail and don't have to worry about somebody in 4 wheels coming up on us.

I would say a minimum of a planet bike blinky super flash is needed for a rear light.


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## junior1210 (Sep 9, 2011)

I just bought the MJ-816 along with MJ-818 tail light, and just looking at them in my house I'd say that the 818 is as bright as you could ask for.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

on beam shapes -

If a round beam shape is blinding to oncoming drivers then we have a very big problem. Virtually every car headlight has a round beam and on low is putting out 1300 lumens per headlight. That means that you will be blinded every time a car comes at you in the opposite lane.

Fact is that few cars properly respect bicycles as vehicles and the problem is even worse at night. I have seen major behavior differences in drivers when confronted with very bright bike head and tail lights. It's so noticeable that I still chuckle almost every time a car slows down and then figures out that that bright thing is a bike. I'w with Cat on this one. He's right.

J.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> on beam shapes -
> 
> If a round beam shape is blinding to oncoming drivers then we have a very big problem. Virtually every car headlight has a round beam and on low is putting out 1300 lumens per headlight. That means that you will be blinded every time a car comes at you in the opposite lane.


Actually, auto manufacturers are required to shape the beam coming out of the headlights (especially in Europe) so that very little light go above horizontal. They are far from round though there are cheap aftermarket retrofit kits that don't do so well.
If you have 2000 lumens and it shines on something light colored close to you, like a road sign, light colored rock, or snow, it's like a camera flash just went off and your blinded for a while.


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## lightjunction (May 17, 2011)

Is there such a thing? 

It's my understanding car lights are regulated at 2300 lumens, so if you go over that, or even close to it, expect to get folks flashing their brights at you. I'd say several hundred to 1000 would be more than sufficient.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> on beam shapes -
> 
> If a round beam shape is blinding to oncoming drivers then we have a very big problem. Virtually every car headlight has a round beam and on low is putting out 1300 lumens per headlight. That means that you will be blinded every time a car comes at you in the opposite lane.
> 
> ...


I found a website that shows legal beam patterns for you. Google
"headlamps Wikipedia", at the bottom of the first selection click on regulations and requirements. As you can see low beam is anything but round but high beam looks pretty close to what you would expect froim two round beams. Now read their defination of high beam. I hope this helps explain my opinions even if you don't agree.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> The light manufacturers produce all these powerful light systems because we want and buy them. It's still up to us top use them responsibly. Most all of these high powered light systems are produced with beam paterns designed for off road riding not traffic situations. If you shine your light on a wall and the beam pattern is round your 1000 lumen bike light is more blinding to on-comming traffic than a car with its low beams (high beams would be illegal in this situation). A Phillips Safe Light style system would be ideal, but there are eliptical lenses and what I use (Action wide angle lens) which flatten the beam and reduce the top spill to the point you can use higher powered lights safely. I have a new 1700 lumen Olympia which I don't ever plan on using on the road unless I can figure out how to mount one of these lenses to it, and even then I wouldn't run it on max power. I've seen other posts saying 500-700 lumens is a good power for a commuter light and I agree (for the street -off raod it's what ever you can afford).


Been pondering on whether to respond to this discussion. In the interest of newbies and kids coming in here thinking it's more than fine to literally blast the living daylights out of drivers and fellow cyclist coming in the opposite direction. It is not and it is dangerous.

MrMole's points are very valid. What we need is "usable light" for us to see where we are going and to be seen. We have a responsibility to others' safety and wellbeing. Down in the trails, if your light has a supernova setting, by all means go for it.

When I am on the road, I never go beyond level 1, and only one light. This used to plague my mind. What if I am on the road and I have my lights on like a carnival. A young mother and her child coming in the opposite direction, I glance up to her as she drives by. Human reaction would be to look away, thus you have a car doing 50mph with a blinded driver. She hits a tree or pole at that speed. "Recklessly causing serious injury" would be a mild charge if this ever goes to court. In litigious societies like ours, I am sure some lawyer would be suggesting a civil suit.

In Europe high powered lights are illegal on the road, Philips SafeRide is designed for that exact purpose - to be SAFE for riders AND other road users. Like I said, in the MTB trails, nobody cares how bright you go. Having said that, I have people with dim lights cussing because I caused their vision to be impaired before I can cover my handlebar light with my hand and look left and down for my helmet beam as I pass them.


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## baldeagle690 (Feb 23, 2012)

Hi all. Interesting reading. I'm planning some offroad at night, as well as some motorcycle Enduro at night later in the year and am now pointed towards the 2000 lumen Magicshine 880. I need the brightest out there as I'll probably be doing +50mph. I've seen much brighter stuff when snowboarding but well out of my price range. Am I making the right choice?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that a 1000 lumen bike light ( with round beam pattern ) is going to be "Blinding" to on-coming vehicular traffic. In my line of work I sometimes log hundreds of miles a day/night behind the wheel of a car. I see few people with really bright bike lights. However just the other day I saw a guy with what I felt was a bright bike light ( on coming traffic ). I didn't see what brand he was using but it was bright, maybe about 800 lumen. Even though it was bright it didn't bother me at all. I only found it interesting. Besides he was past me in a matter of seconds.
> 
> Now with this said If there is one thing that does bother me while driving it is the high powered "Car Lights" that are becoming more prevalent. Sometimes I have to hold my hands up to block the light they are so bright. No bike light I've ever seen is anywhere near as bright ( or annoying ) as the new(er) car headlights.
> 
> ...


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> .....Comments on your post. You only picked out the word "blinding" when what I said was "more blinding than a car on its low beams" (refer to my experiment-huge amount more spill/glare directed to on comming traffic - standard 808e compared to honda element). Later in the paragraph you referred to a passing bicycle with a bright (but not annoying) light you estimated at 800 lumins. Next paragraph you commented on the new car lights so bright you have to cover your eyes (2300 lumins by law with tightly controled spill). Next paragraph you say you agree with JohnJ80 (advocates use of 2300 lumins with no glare control) about the need to be seen (in his words as a car not a bicycle), and from there you said too much light/spill can be overkill (what's too much?), on to you should only use as much light as you need and dim when called for..*Cat I've never seen you make a post like this before and to be honest I have no idea where you stand on this.* I only said we need to use our lights responsibly. I don't think 2300 lumins of non glare controlled light is responsible unless there's no traffic at all. I agree that riding arterials in anything greater than light traffic would require higher lumins to be seen. I choose not to ride arterials at night. Side streets are less well lit and pupils are more dialated, 1000 lumins with some sort of glare control, unlit streets, canal banks 500-700 lumins w/ some sort of glare control (pedistrians don't do well with glare and might share that with you if you blast them (usually they just turn away or cover their eyes). Those are my recommendations. As for the flashing of car lights. Coleens mention of her experience in a foreigh country (totally different attitudes towards bicycles) made me think that our different opinions on what this might mean might just reflect the driving habbits of different citys, states. countries. I'm going to consider myself the Phoenix expert and after being flashed probably 100 times with a good percentage of the time having them yell a me to turn down my light and the results of my above experiment, I see no reason to not think they just think my brights were on. All this stopped after I installed the Action wide angle lens. I know some of this sounds bad and I don't mean it to. Just remember, if your opinion didn't matter I wouldn't bother to reply to your post!


MRM, I think you've misunderstood the core issue(s) that I was commenting on. I wasn't advocating using 2300 lumen bike lights ( on high ) for general all road use. My post started with the statement;



> I'm not sure I can agree that a 1000 lumen bike light ( with round beam pattern ) is going to be "Blinding" to on-coming vehicular traffic.


Once again, it is easy to be misunderstood. A round beam pattern could be blinding "IF" it were too wide and "IF" it were aimed _"directly_" at an on-coming vehicle or person.

I own many bike lights. Some are better for road use than others. The one's with a more narrow beam pattern ( IMO ) work better for all around road use. That's because most of the light goes where you are pointing the lamp if the beam pattern is tight and narrow.
It also helps if you can adjust the angle of the lamp as well as change modes when needed.

When I agreed with JohnJ80 I was agreeing with his point that he wanted to be seen at night. When I said that I wasn't agreeing that 2300 lumens was necessary to accomplish that. On the other hand sometimes you need a bright output. If you are speeding down-hill at 35mph+ on a dark rural two way road you are going to need some brights on occasion. Especially if you are riding on a narrow scree- strewn shoulder with the on-coming traffic blinding you with their headlights. Need I say, in this situation your priority is, " I need to see what the hells in front of me before it's too late", no ifs, and's or buts about it. In a scenario like that my attitude is, " Damn the cars, I'm using the high beams". Sorry but I'm not going to slow down just so I don't have to use my brights. Besides, when the people driving the cars blind you with their headlights are they worried about it....I think not. The difference is, "They have 2 tons of metal and air bags protecting them". What do you have?

Now on the side issue of car headlights I'll try to be brief. I've driven professionally for almost 40 years. During that time I've driven a multitude of makes and models of both cars and vans. Different vehicles have different beam pattern characteristics. I've driven vehicles where the low beams had ( I swear ) about 25 ft of throw. Others, ( the newer ) sometimes have over 150 ft. on low. Usually I drive vehicles with more than average low-beam throw. Since I drive at night a lot I prefer that later.

Say what you will about laws concerning car headlight outputs. My opinion is that no one ( car makers or law enforcement ) is paying those*laws any mind. ( *At least where I live and work ). Five years ago I use to flash my headlights at any vehicle with headlights that were too bright. Nowadays it is such a common thing that it no longer makes any sense to do that anymore. Now when bright car headlights bother me I either adjust my mirrors ( if from behind ) or just squint and look away if on-coming. Seeing that I deal with bright lights on a regular basis I hope this helps you understand my lack of concern over an overly bright light on the side of the road. When you have an SUV following you for over ten miles on a two lane road with their dang-blasted-new-fangled headlights blaring in your rear window you might begin to understand my lack of empathy towards cars being bothered by the rare or occasional bright bike light. :yawn:


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Thanks for reply. The lumin amounts was my big isssue with this whole thing. There's a group of drivers that don't like bikes no mater what we do.I put 10,000 miles a year on my bikes so I don't wan't to see that group grow.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> There's a group of drivers that don't like bikes no mater what we do.I put 10,000 miles a year on my bikes so I don't wan't to see that group grow.


It's just not drivers alone, there's other recreational cyclist, walkers, joggers who have been opposing quietly to bright lights used irresponsibly. Their voice will get louder if we dont advocate using bright lights responsibly on the road. It's this simple.....self-regulate or wait to be regulated.

A bright bike light discussion at bikeportland.org. The comment made by : (naomi December 1, 2010 at 10:31 ) on the cyclist's attitude is something we should avoid.

BikePortland.org » Blog Archive » Ask BikePortland: Can a front bike light be too bright?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Magicshine Australia said:


> It's just not drivers alone, there's other recreational cyclist, walkers, joggers who have been opposing quietly to bright lights used irresponsibly. Their voice will get louder if we dont advocate using bright lights responsibly on the road. It's this simple.....self-regulate or wait to be regulated.
> 
> *A bright bike light discussion at bikeportland.org. *The comment made by : (naomi December 1, 2010 at 10:31 ) on the cyclist's attitude is something we should avoid.
> 
> BikePortland.org » Blog Archive » Ask BikePortland: Can a front bike light be too bright?


That discussion was a discussion about the Portland Springwater rail-trail. As such it is a completely different situation. On a rail trail all on-coming traffic is completely "Dead" head-on. There are also no cars. ( except at road crossings perhaps ). As such there is little reason to run lights with high output in the presence of on coming trail users. Yes, on a rail trail almost any LED lamp can be blinding ( or just annoying ) when viewed dead head-on. This means that if your using an led lamp on a rail trail that you need to have a low mode ( < 200 lumen ) and be willing to point the lamp downward so as not to overly annoy or endanger on coming traffic. ( or perhaps just turn the light off for a short bit )

One of posters mentioned someone using a high powered strobe. Usually I am in favor of strobe use. However on a rail trail strobe use needs to be muted. One of the small "blinkie" frog type strobes would be fine. A Bikeray III on strobe would be completely insane and disabling to any on-coming traffic on a rail trail.

Just keep in mind that people complain about anything nowadays. We weren't there to see what light the cyclist was using. If we were there our attitude might have been completely different. For the record though, if I were using a high powered strobe on a rail trail I would certainly turn it off once I was in visible range of on-coming trail users. If using a standard led light it would be turned to low or off depending on the situation. In summary, trail etiquette is very much different from road etiquette. Regardless, courtesy is something that tends to be forgotten about much these days.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> That discussion was a discussion about the Portland Springwater rail-trail. As such it is a completely different situation. On a rail trail all on-coming traffic is completely "Dead" head-on. There are also no cars. ( except at road crossings perhaps ). As such there is little reason to run lights with high output in the presence of on coming trail users. Yes, on a rail trail almost any LED lamp can be blinding ( or just annoying ) when viewed dead head-on. This means that if your using an led lamp on a rail trail that you need to have a low mode ( < 200 lumen ) and be willing to point the lamp downward so as not to overly annoy or endanger on coming traffic. ( or perhaps just turn the light off for a short bit )
> 
> One of posters mentioned someone using a high powered strobe. Usually I am in favor of strobe use. However on a rail trail strobe use needs to be muted. One of the small "blinkie" frog type strobes would be fine. A Bikeray III on strobe would be completely insane and disabling to any on-coming traffic on a rail trail.
> 
> Just keep in mind that people complain about anything nowadays. We weren't there to see what light the cyclist was using. If we were there our attitude might have been completely different. For the record though, if I were using a high powered strobe on a rail trail I would certainly turn it off once I was in visible range of on-coming trail users. If using a standard led light it would be turned to low or off depending on the situation. In summary, trail etiquette is very much different from road etiquette. Regardless, courtesy is something that tends to be forgotten about much these days.


Hey Cat, my point is, how the "public" perceive these bright lights - which will be the voice legislators listen to - not us. You are probably the most objective contributor here, but yet, I can't say the collective here, myself included, can be totally unbiased to the argument. Many including yourself and I will do the right thing by turning down our lights IF we are able to do so, in time, but how many won't? It just takes a handful to spoil it for the majority, as with other products which got restricted in the past.

This discussion was back in Dec 2010 (time MJ-808 was Elvis), in a small city, by a group of trail users. All this pre-1500 lumen before single and multiple XM-Ls. Not hard to imagine this "problem" will be more prevalent if a survey was conducted on drivers, walkers etc.

A car light is just thigh height and on high beam is "blinding" to anyone in front of it. A handlebar bike light is waist height is just a foot below eye line of a driver. Helmet light needless to say is about a foot above the eye line. How many lumens required to "blind" a driver from those angles?

I have on a few occasions powered up the lights on trail or field, stood up the bike, walk away from it to about 200 feet and walk back towards the bike in two variations - straight line and  as a walker or driver on the road (10 to 15 degrees off) coming from the opposite direction. It is almost impossible see anything besides the intense white beam. I suggest everyone try this so they understand what others in the opposite direction see.

MTB Lights must be appreciated and regarded as that. Trail riders need those brightness and intensities on the trails. In built up areas, public parks and public road systems riders ought to display courtesy and common sense. Hate to think all we'd be discussing here in the future is the different colors Philips SafeRides comes in.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

This time of year I probably get 40-50 miles a week on canal banks & bike paths with my lights on. On the street it's hard to read the reactions of drivers, with the pedeistrians on the bike paths the body language is obvious. No one ever said anything but they would look away or cover their eyes and I could tell my light was making them uncomfortable. Some of the cyclists reactons were more interesting because some of them were yelling before I could even see them in my beam. This all stopped when I got my action wide angle lens. I've even got compliments from pedistrians (I think they were releived not getting blasted by a bright light). I didn't realize it bothered me that much but I even felt better about riding at night. This is such a inexpensive fix for the glare problem but getting this information out to all the magicshine/gemini/lupine/clones would be difficult (Any ideas?). I think there are other glare reducing lenses out there but the manufacturers are the best option and seeing how cheap an after market lens costs they could incorporate this technology for a very small price increase per unit. This would be a whole lot cheaper (for us and the manufacturers) than having to have all lights certified if the governmant gets involved. Thanks everyone for all the comments on this problem.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Hey Cat, my point is, *how the "public" perceive these bright lights - which will be the voice legislators listen to - not us.* You are probably the most objective contributor here, but yet, I can't say the collective here, myself included, can be totally unbiased to the argument. Many including yourself and I will do the right thing by turning down our lights IF we are able to do so, in time, but how many won't? It just takes a handful to spoil it for the majority, as with other products which got restricted in the past.
> 
> This discussion was back in Dec 2010 (time MJ-808 was Elvis), in a small city, by a group of trail users. All this pre-1500 lumen before single and multiple XM-Ls. Not hard to imagine this "problem" will be more prevalent if a survey was conducted on drivers, walkers etc.


Well, here in the states things are usually done differently. In order to get legislation passed there has to be some sort of a major public out-cry due to major endangerment to the public safety as a whole. An example of this is noted in my home state of Maryland where a law was passed ( about a year ago ) that stated that a person driving a car could not hold a cell phone and drive ( or text message ) at the same time. All of this transpired because a few dingbats had accidents while talking on a cell phone and ended up killing someone. Didn't matter that millions of people use cell phones every day without problems. The powers that be thought the new law would make the roads safer. Since it is still legal to drive with a Blue tooth head set IMO the passing of law was an exercise in futility. Since not everyone has a BT phone people still use their phones in the car. The police on the other hand really can't enforce the law or they would be pulling cars over left and right. So much for stupid laws.

The real point I'm making is that there are too few examples of people riding with overly bright bike lights that end up causing an accident. Because of that I'm not going to lose sleep over whither a few people are pissed over a bright bike light while on the road. You have cars, trucks, motorcycles, etc that use bright head lights. If there were to be a public outcry it would be over those vehicles with bright lights. So far I never even hear anyone ever complain about the bright lights on cars. That being the case, who is going to worry about a few people riding bikes at night with bright lights?...Really! I mean it's not like riding bikes at night is a national past time. :lol:

Here in the USA there are many organizations and lobbying groups that watch out for the rights of bicyclist. The internet and media are the best friend of the cyclist. Although there aren't Millions of serious cyclist there ARE Tens of thousands of serious cyclist. As such they include men, women and children. If anything were to endanger the rights of cyclist, the cycling media/lobbyist would be all over it.

Not long ago a local media shock-jock went on the air with a tirade of negative comments about people riding bikes ( on the road ) in the local Washington DC area. He jokingly suggested people run down the cyclist when they get in their way. Need I say, the response from the local bicycling groups was immediate. The radio station was flooded with telephone calls and internet messages. The biking web sites had a field day.

My point in all this is that no one is going to mess with a bicyclist's right to be seen on the road here is the USA. Since a bicycle has the same rights and responsibilities as a car on the road they have the right to the same expectation of safety. All the new cars have some pretty bright head lights. A bicycle should at least have the right to the same amount of light as a motorcycle when riding on the road. Now rail trails are not roads and so I can understand that regulations could be adapted to make all trail users happy.

With all this said, different parts of the country have different regulations concerning bicycling at night. I just finished reading up on some of the Portland laws. Tears came down my face when I learned they have a law that requires a bike seat. Sorry but that was so funny I almost wet myself.  Tonight while driving home I saw a guy riding a bicycle ( at night ) with no lights and talking on a cell phone. That my friends just made my day. :thumbsup:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Excellent post, Cat!

To add to this - there are lot of pickup trucks that have lights that are as high off the ground as my handlebar mounted lights. Each of them are 1300 lumens (by law) on low beam and they aren't blinding anyone. Here in MN, I believe it's illegal to drive with your high beams on when something like 700' from a car in either lane. People forget to do this all the time and no one is getting ticketed for that either.

Every kid in driver's training is trained to not look directly at the headlights of oncoming cars. Our bike lights, even at 1500 lumens (claimed) are not that bright that they are going to blind anyone who isn't staring straight at them - and doubtful even then.



J.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I have nothing more to say about the government involvement other than it is posible (I would have guessed more probable than the law against riding a bike withot a seat).

I do want to share something on this forum that supports my assuration that our lights cause considerably more glare per lumin than a car light. In this yearts MTBR light shootout, look at the phillips safelight compared to other lights with twice the measured lux. Since it appears as bright as these more powerful lights the only thing I can think of is that it's lost to spill which produces more glare. I know I'm not going to change the opinions of my opposing posters but I'm grateful to get the opportunity to share my opinions, the facts I dug up, my conclusions, and my fun little tests. I hope these have had a positive effect on those of you watching this thread. Thanks Magicshine Australlia and Action LED for your support. I really have nothing more to say about this other than to Cat and John J80; My position on this can either have no effect or a positive effect on cycfling's image, your position on this can either no effect or a negative effect on cyclings image.


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

let me give it a shot.
how bright is too bright ?
- any light bulb incandescent or LED directly visible
example: 
car headlight, the bulb wire is not directly visible 
on HID bulbs, they have a shield , so you don't see the light source directly
LED to bright, any LED light , you can see the LED, example with a reflector.

the contrast ratio, between light to dark, needs to be in a certain range, as not being too bright.
example, take a picture with your digital camera, the camera is capable record a picture,
within certain contrast ratio. if it is too bright, detail is blown out, and the rest gets too dark.
---
on the road beam pattern play a role too.
germany is the only country I know of, that has it regulated, on bicycle lights.
on cars, a high-beam will be too bright, even using the same bulb, due beam pattern.
----
being seen , has little to do , how bright your light is.
your bike light , is just another light on the road, as such does not communicate well,
that you are on a bicycle.
best start point, those little pesky, not fashionable Reflectors you took off !!!!
any additional reflectors, and or light, that does make your 
body or bicycle outline recognizable , will improve , being seen.
not how bright your light is.
extreme example, an camouflaged sniper , is not easy to see, because, head-should triangle is not visible, and body contour is not recognizable , as such, even if you physically see him, your brain,
will not be able to recognize it. 
so what would be the best , extreme, to be visible ?!
hmm, take reflective tape, and make a complete skeleton, front and back, don't forget the head part. in europe, some, dress up the bike, since they don't want to impact their fashion, or look like a glitter christmas tree.
----
still see, way to many bicyclist , adults and kids on the road with no lights at all.
the worst, one was , and bmx rider , no lights, no reflectors, dress in black, under a street lamp , that was broken, in the rain, swerving in his bike to avoid a puddle, needles to say a close call.
even with my headlights, I could not make out, what it was, till way to close.
Since I was not able to associate any features, to a bmx rider, was not able to take any actions,...
----
my three incidents on a bike,...
- me blasting past a parking lot, of a daycare center, and a busy mom, who was late, pulling out,
and mowing me over in reverse
- riding really fast, past parked cars, and guy opens the door, without looking,...
- a car taking a turn, without looking or turn lights, me hitting the car, was looking at my bike computer,...
----
off-road
if your light is so bright, that all the dust or mist in the air, creates a glowing glare.
in that case more light , does not help.
less light, different beam pattern, better quality light, less blue, more yellow, etc.

just some thoughts


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Last night after doing a quick ride I did some comparisons with my lights. I stood the bike up and walked about 25ft away to get an idea what the glare effect had. Using my Gloworm X2 on the 500 lumen setting aimed as I usually do it was not too bad which was surprising. It was bright but not to the " Oh my God I can't see" degree. ( keep in mind viewed almost head on ) On low it was very comfortable so should not be a problem on rail trails/ bike paths. Then I tried one of my XML torches which I think is good for road use. It has a very narrow and confined beam. On high it was bright ( 500 lumen ) but the confined beam made a big difference. Once you walked more to the left it became very comfortable. Aiming it lower made in even better. Then I attached a temporary hood to the torch. This made a big difference especially when the torch was tilted down. It almost made the output look like a cheapy bike light. Using the hood on the X2 barely made a difference. If I decide to do a late night rail trail ride I will bring that torch along although I have to admit that I doubt I will see any night time trail users. ( C&O canal trail )

Keep in mind if I were in a car passing my bike it would have an all together different effect. First cars move fast which would mean that the encounter would be very brief. Secondly cars have tinted front windshields which lessen the glare and third they are off-set from the light by at least 25ft when driving on the other side. I will still use my lights accordingly. So far no one has yelled at me or flashed at me using the X2 ( or my other lights ). Use your lights within reason and you should not have a problem.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello, 

My two cents worth.

You need it when you need it. The brighter the light max, the more you can do with it. And the times you don't need that much light, well you get that much more battery life so it is not wasted. 

You see, with a really bright set of lights, you can bomb down a hill at 50+ MPH. Not that you will do that every day, but if you want you can. With a lower power light, you can't do that. So the brighter the light, the more situations you can feel comfortable in and the more you can do with it.

Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I think it basically comes down to this; No matter how little or how much light you use, someone is going to think your light is too bright. Everyone's opinion is going to differ when it comes to "What is too bright". That being the case I don't think we should worry too much about what the local law makers think about bike lights because they are going to do what they are going to do. You just hope like hell that they leave well enough alone and don't pass any more stupid bike laws. Hopefully there are enough lawmakers that commute by bike that they will consider their own safety when riding at night. If they have a teenager at home who likes to ride around at night, even better. 

In the mean time I'll not be sitting around waiting for the sky to fall. Someone once said, "Rules were made to be broken". When it comes to riding bikes at night I've been breaking rules ( laws ) for a long time. I'm not proud of it but if you want to ride at night sometimes you have to break some rules. If I didn't break those rules I probably wouldn't be able to ride except on the road and that would be a total ****. Yeah, I've been caught a time or two. Basically you just get a slap on the hand and are told, "You can't ride here at night, you have to leave". I say, "Okay", and leave. For the most part though the police really don't care. As long as your car isn't parked in the park they don't have to worry about it and if you're back in the woods riding, ....really, they could care less. Now if you have one local that complains THEN you have a problem. So far I've not had any helicopters shining any search lights at me but you never know what's to come next.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> <snip>
> 
> So far I've not had any helicopters shining any search lights at me but you never know what's to come next.


That can be a problem. I bought so much light and have so much on my bike that if a helicopter shine a search light at me, I'll just shine all my lights back...........muahhahahaha.

Sorry guys, cannot resist but had to say that. Just wanted to add some humor


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

@colleen, LOL, I feel the same way.

In my humble opinion, I like really bright lights. Back in the day when I started riding at night, I had those NightRider HID lights and they were so bright that cars would give me a lot of extra room. In fact, on a dark street, I would have cars pull off the road and stop until I passed by. I like that, I want that.

Remember, you can always turn a bright light down, but you can't turn a dim light up.

600 lumen may be ok, but I think you can be safe all the way up to 1500 lumen. Remember, you can use that extra light during the daytime. NightRider makes a 3000 lumen light, maybe that is overkill for the road, but then again, maybe not for some.

As for me, I just ordered DesignShine's DS-1300 and DS-500 combo. I ride road, and I like that these lights work as well in the day as they do at night. The front light has an amber plate you can slap on for daytime and remove it at night and the tail light the DS-500 is by far and away the brightest around. In my opinion, most commuter lights aren't bright enough. I want drivers to feel the need to move over and give me the extra room on the road. Bright lights do that, regular commuter do not. I have had one bad accident in my life and it nearly killed me. I can't afford another like that so for me, it is lights all the time.

- Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> That can be a problem. I bought so much light and have so much on my bike that if a helicopter shine a search light at me, I'll just shine all my lights back...........muahhahahaha.
> 
> Sorry guys, cannot resist but had to say that. Just wanted to add some humor


Do that and I don't think they will find it funny...

Actually I only mentioned this because the Police where I live have done this several times over the last couple years....Not looking for me but rather for someone(s) else. Right behind my building where I live there is a good amount of paved hiker/biker trails. On several occasions the State Police helicopter has circled this area and blasted it with their search lights, flying low and making all kinds of noise at 2:00 in the morning. When this would happen I would go out on my balcony and watch. It would usually last about 15-20 minutes. Not sure what they were looking for but I speculate that it might have something to do with the local youths. You know, hanging out back in the woods doing stuff... On one of those occasions I thought about jumping on my bike ( with all my best lights ) and taking off onto the trails just to find out what all the Who-Ha is about. I changed my mind when I thought it could have something to do with a more serious nature like robbing a local store. The curiosity though just about killed me.


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## Circusjunk (Aug 20, 2004)

I'll Throw My 2 cents in. I have been commuting at night by bike for 25 years now , compared to the lights I used years ago, these new ones are Bright! and I like it .

and after having numerous close calls being hit.( and having a Friend Killed riding at night ) my Answer is you can never be too bright. 

if I have any doubts weather a person making a left or pulling out of a street can see me , I blind them --On purpose --! and I have found when a Driver in a situation like that can't see , they stop! 


I am a firm believer it is more important to be seen , then see when riding on the road at night, I for the back, I not only hae 2 of the generic Flashers , I also have 48 ( 24 going up each Seat Stay ) High intensity Red LED's. 

I make sure I'm seen , if the choice is not Pissing some one off or staying alive I'm chosing the Latter.


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## neex (Mar 30, 2005)

Circusjunk - do you have pics of your setup? It sounds intriguing. I agree with being seen. I ride with dual 400s on my bars and a a MOAB HID on my helmet usually on low/med. Full tilt on the trails.

A.


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## Circusjunk (Aug 20, 2004)

neex said:


> Circusjunk - do you have pics of your setup? It sounds intriguing. I agree with being seen. I ride with dual 400s on my bars and a a MOAB HID on my helmet usually on low/med. Full tilt on the trails.
> 
> A.


My Commuter A specilized Stumjumper Hard Tail, head liught is on the helmet , same with flashers they are on me


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Circus, very nice set-up you have there. :thumbsup:

Just the other day I was driving through an area where they have new* LED stop signs.* These are standard stop signs outlined at the points with flashing red LEDs powered by solar cells. There is also a yellow warning sign version and I've seen both. Total impossible to miss. Anyway this got me thinking. Would be nice to have some kind of vest with some leds on it. I they make something like that because I've seen it somewhere.

I like the idea of longer strings of leds like you have on your bike. Basically it makes you more visible without pissing anyone off with super bright lights. Currently I've been using a set of fireflys on my wheels. They really do draw attention. The only problem is that they are cheap Chinese junk and sometimes they don't work like they should. Would be nice if someone made a better more reliable version. Yes I know they make the Monkey lights and other more larger wheel lights. Not looking for something like that. The small ones are fine. i just want them to work like they should.


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

Circusjunk, would you be so kind as to provide a link to the supplier of those LED light strips you're using? Also, how are you powering the light strips? What kind of batteries? How long do they last? Sorry for all the questions, but I think you've got a setup that is very visible to drivers and will enhance safety for everyone. Thanks!


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello,

I too would like to know where you got your lights. It looks very cool up close in a picture, how does it look further away? 

Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Someone might want to PM Circus to see if he will answer. I'm curious as well. I see lot's of LED stripping on the internet searches but I'm still wondering how he runs his. Most of the stuff I'm looking at comes in big rolls and is power by 12volts. You can cut to size but dang who needs 5 meters of leds ( one roll ) in one color?


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## Circusjunk (Aug 20, 2004)

I bought them On ebay , search on LED strip , they run on 12 Volts , the Red ones are the the SIlicon/Plastic encased to make them water proof using real Leds , they are 24 CM long with 24 LED's . 
the white and green oneds are teh SMT type of LED with 15 LED's in 30 CM .

my Batteries are 4 Li-Ion cells in series to provide the 12 Volts that is needed. I get hose from Old Laptop Battery packs.


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## starthere (Nov 7, 2011)

ihaveagibsonsg said:


> Point the light more towards the ground rather than at the cars. If I were you though I wouldn't be worried about blinding drivers, the purpose of the light is to be seen. You will be seen and they might go WTF THATS BRIGHT and forget about it as soon as they drive by.


Good idea, and I think an orange peel reflector can also do some help, isn't it?


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## starthere (Nov 7, 2011)

bhc said:


> I saw that one mentioned a rear light, but don't forget to get something very bright for those coming up behind you. Easy to forget when we are used to being on a trail and don't have to worry about somebody in 4 wheels coming up on us.
> 
> I would say a minimum of a planet bike blinky super flash is needed for a rear light.


I do agree with you, and the rear light we need is no longer low quality and low power, but a high quality and power enough....


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Looks like we've been noticed! After my ride tonight I was talking with my friend (He's a mechanic at a LBS) about lights and He shared some disturbing news with me. Apearently his Nightrider rep. told him that the Department of Transportation has contacted them unfavorably about thier 3000 light system. Scarrrrrrry!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> Looks like we've been noticed! After my ride tonight I was talking with my friend (He's a mechanic at a LBS) about lights and He shared some disturbing news with me. Apearently his Nightrider rep. told him that the Department of Transportation has contacted them unfavorably about thier 3000 light system. Scarrrrrrry!


What State is this in reference to? Some states focus on strange things. As such the state in question might have some strange requirement that sets a limit on how much light a two-wheeled vehicle can have as a head light. Once again, a near unenforceable law IMO. Now if the State police start carrying Integrated Sphere's ( or some version thereof )...that would be something to worry about for everyone regardless of how many wheels you use to get to from point A to B.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> What State is this in reference to? Some states focus on strange things. As such the state in question might have some strange requirement that sets a limit on how much light a two-wheeled vehicle can have as a head light. Once again, a near unenforceable law IMO. Now if the State police start carrying Integrated Sphere's ( or some version thereof )...that would be something to worry about for everyone regardless of how many wheels you use to get to from point A to B.


 I live in Phoenix, Az. although I'm not sure if the NR Reps. terratory is local or regional.
I'm going to see if the LBS can have the rep. contact me so I can get additional information. If you have any specific questions you want me ask I'll see if I can get them answered.
I agree that enforcement would at the moment bew difficult. I worrry more that it would effect the way we buy our lights. Regulation might be as simple as a printed "off road only" disclaimer or could come in the form of a stamp on the light (this would be easily enforceable and is common on accessory truck lights), commuter lights would be effected more. At any rate regulation usually ends up costing the consumer more.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

So, it looks like crime in AZ is so under control that it's time to worry about the lumens of bike lights?

J.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

I wonder if this news from MRMOLE might indicate that the US DOT is considering regulation of bike headlight brightness and beam pattern. They already regulate the lighting on all other road going vehicles. Germany and possibly other countries already have specs for beam pattern and brightness for bike lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> *I wonder if this news from MRMOLE might indicate that the US DOT is considering regulation of bike headlight brightness and beam pattern.* They already regulate the lighting on all other road going vehicles. Germany and possibly other countries already have specs for beam pattern and brightness for bike lights.


One of the things I've noticed over the years driving on the road. Almost no two vehicles ( or models ) have the same beam pattern or brightness level. The last thing Detroit needs is to have the government telling them "You need to design lamps *THIS WAY* or you can't build/sell cars". Just think for a moment how that would effect the design of any car's front end not to mention the aesthetic look of any vehicle having to conform to a set government standard. They would all have to have identical head lights. Boy would that screw up the look of the front ends of those fancy high priced imports.

Now about the "Germany thing": Our country is not Germany nor do most Americans think like the Germans ( I hope...:ihih:. ) That is not a put down on Germans per say. I'm sure they are very fine people. They have their ways, we have ours. Still, I have no idea why the German's have such strict laws on bike lights for road use. Funny though how _Lupine_ is one of the most notable High-end bike light manufacturers. Their lights are some of the brightest around. Not to mention my VW has a set of projection High Beams that will knock your socks off.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> The last thing Detroit needs is to have the government telling them "You need to design lamps *THIS WAY* or you can't build/sell cars".


DOT does regulate this. Look up "FMVSS 108". It does not say what the lamps look like, just how the beam they project must not exceed


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

In the short term, I believe this will lead to a change in product labeling. For the NiteRider 3000 and those extra bright lights - perhaps "For Off Road Use Only" or "Not For Use On Public Streets withing the USA" Something like that. I think that many of us can agree that 3000 lumens is way to bright to be used safely with the possibility of on-coming traffic.

Cat-man-do, I know Germans very well, my wife is German and they are "very fine people." Why would they have such strict laws? What you have to know is that Germans take driving very seriously and as such they have very strict laws to keep it as safe as possible. Because when you are traveling at over 150mph on the Autoban, or 60mph on a two lane road, to be safe your full attention needs to be on the road, period. This is why driving in Germany is such a pleasure. Believe it or not, when you turn on your signal to change lanes in German, people actually give way. Germans don't allow cellphone or texting while driving. In fact, if you are in an accident and caught texting or on the cellphone, your insurance won't cover you, so few ever risk it. They don't eat or drink while driving either, this is why cup holders are so strange for them. 

Germans love to drive, their laws are meant to protect the driving environment for everyone. It takes a lot to get a driver's license and to have your car certified to be allowed on the roads. Now imagine a 3000 lumen light in this environment, where even a short flash could blind someone long enough to cause an accident. This is why they do what they do, they love driving and are willing to go the extra mile to keep it this way.

- Roger


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Roger Huston said:


> In the short term, I believe this will lead to a change in product labeling. For the NiteRider 3000 and those extra bright lights - perhaps "For Off Road Use Only" or "Not For Use On Public Streets withing the USA" Something like that. I think that many of us can agree that 3000 lumens is way to bright to be used safely with the possibility of on-coming traffic.


I don't agree. It all depends on how it's aimed. If I take a 1300 lumen light (the rating, IIRC, on a low beam car headlight) and I aim it directly into oncoming traffic, it will be irritating but the brightness is entirely legal.

I don't think anyone is going to waste their time on rating bike lights for on street usage. It's a tiny market and a tiny problem.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> I don't agree. It all depends on how it's aimed. If I take a 1300 lumen light (the rating, IIRC, on a low beam car headlight) and I aim it directly into oncoming traffic, it will be irritating but the brightness is entirely legal.
> 
> I don't think anyone is going to waste their time on rating bike lights for on street usage. It's a tiny market and a tiny problem.
> 
> J.


Point well made.



Roger Huston said:


> ....Germans love to drive, their laws are meant to protect the driving environment for everyone. It takes a lot to get a driver's license and to have your car certified to be allowed on the roads.* Now imagine a 3000 lumen light in this environment, where even a short flash could blind someone long enough to cause an accident. *This is why they do what they do, they love driving and are willing to go the extra mile to keep it this way.
> 
> - Roger


While 3000 lumen is definitely more light than anyone would need on a bike to ride at night with ( on the road ) I don't think it would be quite the "road hazard' that you infer. Once again, any encounter with anyone using a 3000lm lamp on a bike would be quite rare and likely be over in a matter of seconds if driving a car. Most people's response would probably be to say, "WTF, thats bright"! and forget about it a minute later. _( < that sentence quoted from another poster )_

I regularly encounter vehicle's equipped with lights that are very high lumen. Notable are the pickup trucks with big wheels that not only have the brightest of headlights but also have a set of after-market lamps on the front bumper to boot. Total output must be more than 3000 lumen and that's saying it mildly. Nothing like having one of those jokers following you for ten miles. ( do I hear an Amen? ) 

Then there's the biggest lumen hazard of all and by no means is it a fast encounter or an encounter that you can avoid. Anyone driving into the "Setting Sun" knows what I'm talking about. Sun glasses on, sun visor down, you are still facing one of the most dangerous driving hazards known to man. Need I say any more! If I can safely operate my vehicle under any of those hazards I last mentioned, I can handle the extremely rare road cyclist using a NiteRider 3000.

Now if the German's find a way to block out the sun and pass a law making it mandatory you let me know. Yes, mighty fine people those German's they are.  ( last paragraph to be taken tongue in cheek. :thumbsup: )


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

A car with two properly functioning headlights would be at 2600 lumens (actual and OTF) on low beams. That, for most people, is indistinguishable from 3000 lumens. Then add in that most bike lights manufacturers are far too optimistic in rating their light output, I'd say that 90% of the 3000 lumen output lights aren't even coming close to what an average car puts out with low beams. 

This is a non issue.

J.


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## snowcatsmiling (Mar 29, 2012)

Hi, my Moon x-power 1500 is too bright for oncoming traffic even on low beam - it's not really the brightness but that these kind of lights don't have road-legal lenses which divert the light to protect oncoming drivers.

Off-road, maybe nothing it too bright...


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> I don't agree. It all depends on how it's aimed. If I take a 1300 lumen light (the rating, IIRC, on a low beam car headlight) and I aim it directly into oncoming traffic, it will be irritating but the brightness is entirely legal.
> 
> I don't think anyone is going to waste their time on rating bike lights for on street usage. It's a tiny market and a tiny problem.


And if the DOT had an issue with a 1300 lumen light, I am sure your point would be well made. I think the DOT is raising an issue with the 3000 lumen lights, which is, wait let me do the math, more than 1300. A lot more.

Don't think anyone is going to waste their time? This is their job, this is what they do. I am dealing with the DOT right now on an issue with "DOT Approved" vs "DOT Regulated", even though the manufacturer and everyone else uses approved, the proper term is regulated and we must change it. Its a very minor point, but guess what, the DOT is sending out letters making people change it.

My point is, the NiteRider 3000 is now on their radar and by proxy our entire industry. You can bet they are asking themselves, wow, these are bright, I wonder who else makes lights this bright? And guess what, odds are manufacturers aren't going to be able to simply ignore it and have it go away. This is the US Govt. ignoring them just gets you into trouble.

In my opinion, what Nightrider and the rest need to do is to take a proactive approach and look at their lights and see how they fit in to the DOT rules for road use. Then, clearly mark the packages for those lights that fall outside those rules. This could get the DOT off their back. If they don't do this and just try to ignore it, well the DOT could come down and make all bike lights over a certain lumen count illegal, and we wouldn't want that.

- Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

snowcatsmiling said:


> Hi, my Moon x-power 1500 is too bright for oncoming traffic even on low beam - it's not really the brightness but that *these kind of lights don't have road-legal lenses which divert the light to protect oncoming drivers.
> *
> Off-road, maybe nothing it too bright...


I hate to be the one to say this but No kind of head light is really designed per say to protect on coming traffic. That depends "per say" on what is meant by "protect" of course. If you mean "be seen" than yes, you will be seen because they are damn bright. If you mean "never to interfere with vision", Nope, that's not going to happen if these lights are to be seen. Occasionally someone's headlights are going to annoy someone else. Their is no way to escape this "IF" the lights are to be seen.

IMO, the DOT needs to consider total bicyclist safety and not whither or not someone in a car is ticked off for 10 sec because they think a bike light is a little too bright. I do agree there needs to be a limit in output but that is something best decided on by committee. Hopefully that committee will include people who's job it is to protect bicyclist.

A while back the public got concerned because road workers were occasionally being killed by cars passing a work area. Now look what is done to protect them. Reflective vests, giant flashing warning lights , barrels and cones. Last but not least newly designed work lights that mimic the lamps use in stadiums! I mean those things are damn bright. Don't tell me they don't blind on-coming traffic! *Shouldn't the bicyclist be given the same consideration?*


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Roger Huston said:


> And if the DOT had an issue with a 1300 lumen light, I am sure your point would be well made. I think the DOT is raising an issue with the 3000 lumen lights, which is, wait let me do the math, more than 1300. A lot more.


You're not reading my post completely. A single car headlight is 1300 lumens. Most cars have two which would be 2600 lumens and are out the front (OTF) lumens. 2600 is indistinguishable by almost all people from 3000 OTF lumens.

Also, again, bike light manufacturers who claim 3000 lumens are almost always grossly optimistic in their rating of the light and 3000 claimed lumens isn't always 3000 OTF lumens.



> Don't think anyone is going to waste their time? This is their job, this is what they do. I am dealing with the DOT right now on an issue with "DOT Approved" vs "DOT Regulated", even though the manufacturer and everyone else uses approved, the proper term is regulated and we must change it. Its a very minor point, but guess what, the DOT is sending out letters making people change it.
> 
> My point is, the NiteRider 3000 is now on their radar and by proxy our entire industry. You can bet they are asking themselves, wow, these are bright, I wonder who else makes lights this bright? And guess what, odds are manufacturers aren't going to be able to simply ignore it and have it go away. This is the US Govt. ignoring them just gets you into trouble.
> 
> ...


<yawn> How often to you think a 3000 lumen bike rider is going to generate a complaint, or even be seen by a cop who even cares? Not very often. There are not millions of these lights out there. It just isn't a problem and isn't going to be either. Most cops are glad that cyclists are well lit so they don't have to waste time on a EMT call.

let me know when the big headline comes out that the DOT is climbing all over bike light manufacturers. If I were any of the light manufacturers I'd not waste my time on this one. I really doubt there is going to be any need anytime soon to worry about this (maybe in my lifetime).

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> ....There are not millions of these lights out there. It just isn't a problem and isn't going to be either. * Most cops are glad that cyclists are well lit so they don't have to waste time on a EMT call.....*
> J.


Yep, ...you hit that nail on the head. Last thing a cop wants to do is do an investigation/clean-up at a bike scene accident.

Your also right that there aren't a whole lot of people riding with utra-high-lumen bike lights on the road.

To the others I say this, so far I have yet to see a cyclist on the road with a light so bright that I would be upset. And before you think that I might be biased because I'm a cyclist, I'm also a concerned motorist ( * 8-10 hrs on the road everyday ). I get ticked-off all the time by bright lights, happily none of them are yet coming from bicyclists. :yesnod:

*Posted by snowcat*


> Hi, my Moon x-power 1500 is too bright for oncoming traffic even on low beam - it's not really the brightness but that these kind of lights don't have road-legal lenses which divert the light to protect oncoming drivers.


From the beam photo's I've seen this light is very bright and yes it produces a wide yet far throwing beam on high. However I don't think it will be a problem with on-coming traffic as long as you use the lower settings. On a narrow two lane road with no shoulder, the lowest ( 350 lumen ) setting when cars are approaching. On a wider road the 700 setting should be fine if you have wide shoulders. If you feel the lamp is too bright for the road buy one of the commuter style lamps and use that. Personally I think you're fine at just using the low mode as long as you can still see. (**By the way I noticed you gave the same review on Wiggle as well )


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> Your also right that there aren't a whole lot of people riding with utra-high-lumen bike lights on the road.


Amen to that!. I see way more people with little to no lighting (rear lighting included) riding around the urban areas than with bright lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> Amen to that!. I see way more people with little to no lighting (rear lighting included) riding around the urban areas than with bright lights.


You know it's come to my attention that I'm seeing more cyclist using commuter style lights ( and rear blinkies) which I suppose is great but surprisingly* I'm still not seeing some of these people until they are crossing right in front of me.* I think what is really needed is more "Side Visibility" because almost every cyclist I see riding at night has almost none. The ones I do see well are the ones with good reflectors on the wheels and reflective clothing. However I'm beginning to feel* there is a real need for some " side led lighting". *I've been using wheel lights on occasion and while they work great they might be a bit of over-kill. I'll continue using them because over-kill is better than me-getting-killed. Other riders might what to consider a set of cheap knog/frog type blinkies on the frame for some side visibility and/or some reflective tape here and there.


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## tb123 (Dec 20, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> You know it's come to my attention that I'm seeing more cyclist using commuter style lights ( and rear blinkies) which I suppose is great but surprisingly* I'm still not seeing some of these people until they are crossing right in front of me.* I think what is really needed is more "Side Visibility" because almost every cyclist I see riding at night has almost none.


Cat, thats exactly why I bought one of these tail lights Red Zone 4
Has very good off axis visibility. One of these out back, a Gloworm X2 up front, I dont think folks will have too many problems seeing


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

snowcatsmiling said:


> Hi, my Moon x-power 1500 is too bright for oncoming traffic even on low beam - it's not really the brightness but that these kind of lights don't have road-legal lenses which divert the light to protect oncoming drivers.
> 
> Off-road, maybe nothing it too bright...


Doubt it. Just play with the aiming and it will be fine. 1500 lumens is barely half the lumens of a car with two beams on.

300 lumens is too bright if aimed right at your eyes.

J.


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## tb123 (Dec 20, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> Doubt it. Just play with the aiming and it will be fine. 1500 lumens is barely half the lumens of a car with two beams on.
> 
> 300 lumens is too bright if aimed right at your eyes.
> 
> J.


Agreed, anything aimed straight into the eyes is too bright, but I think there is a lot more to it than saying car headlights are 2600 lumen therefore they must be brighter which makes bike lights ok.

I think a lot of it has to do with the way the light is delivered. A car headlight is usually knee or thigh high, a warmer colour light (especially on older cars) and aimed at the road immediately in front of the car and off to the left (or the right if you drive on the right) to light up the side of the road. A cars high beam is often not much brighter (possibly a 65w globe instead of a 55w one) but is often housed in a spotlight style reflector and aimed up and further down the road. Even though its not much brighter, looking into high beam with oncoming traffic is irritating and dangerous.

A bike light on the other hand is often mounted at waist height on the bars or much higher on the helmet so motorists are often looking directly at it. Most modern bike lights are an intense white LED colour and are just more uncomfortable to look at. I have a 680 lumen torch, it's very bright, out throws my car headlights by a long way and every one complains about it if it is even vaguely pointed in their direction, but my car headlights are supposedly "brighter", although no one complains about them. 
Most bike lights are designed to throw the light some distance and most people aim the light down the road. If you ride around urban areas with these type of lights pumping out 1000, 1500 or 3000 lumen, I think it's asking for trouble. The last thing you need to be doing is blinding oncoming traffic, especially on rural roads and have them cross the centre line and mow you down.

I think most people use these bright lights appropriately, but there are always those who disregard everyone elses comfort and safety and ruin it for the rest of us.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't agree. At some point, you are delivering photons that have to land on a surface (retina). Whether it's waist high (that would be lower than a semi truck, for instance) or lower doesn't make much difference but the aiming makes a ton of difference. Try looking head on to a car headlight (they are aimed slightly down and in, BTW) and you'll find it not much different than looking head on to a LED light at the same distance of the same brightness. In other words, no big deal.

On top of that, on a bike, if I'm aiming it at oncoming traffic, I must be stupid. On a bike, because you are slower than a car, you aim your lights more down and in front of you than a car. You are also farther over to the side. It takes a LOT to get it aimed at the oncoming traffic where you are close enough for it to be a problem. 

As well, my lights (I ride Lupines) have narrower beams than a car. If I aim it towards the other lane, I'm riding in the dark - which defeats the whole purpose of having bright lights on my bike to ride at night. 

Either way, we argue about something that isn't going to be a problem. 3000 lumens on a bike is a tiny tiny percentage of night riders and night riders are a tiny percentage of cyclists. I ride with 2250 lumens and I'm the *only* nut out there that I see that's even close. I ride with a 750 lumen (OTF lumens) on my helmet specifically so I CAN shine it in the eyes of drivers at cross streets. Even then, I don't find any of them looking away. They just keep looking right at me. 

Even when I have the whole 2250 aimed at a car, I *still* don't see anyone flashing their lights at me or complaining. The single and only complaint I had was from a drunk who pulled over when he saw my red flashing 400R taillight, got confused and scared that he was going to be toast because he thought I was a cop and then pissed off when he found out I was a bike. Guys like that? I hope they find it irritating and pull over.

I find the 2250 lumens nice, but I'd go for more. I think more is safer and that's that. Right now, more is better and I think this worry is a solution looking for a problem.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

tb123 said:


> Agreed, anything aimed straight into the eyes is too bright, but I think there is a lot more to it than saying car headlights are 2600 lumen therefore they must be brighter which makes bike lights ok.
> 
> I think a lot of it has to do with the way the light is delivered. A car headlight is usually knee or thigh high, a warmer colour light (especially on older cars) and aimed at the road immediately in front of the car and off to the left (or the right if you drive on the right) to light up the side of the road. A cars high beam is often not much brighter (possibly a 65w globe instead of a 55w one) but is often housed in a spotlight style reflector and aimed up and further down the road. Even though its not much brighter, looking into high beam with oncoming traffic is irritating and dangerous.
> 
> ...


tb I'm afraid I too have to disagree with almost everything you said. First you make a point about a bike's light being higher than most cars. What about P-up trucks? 18 wheelers? Motorcycles? Vans? Larger SUV's...etc? I look at it this way, any bright light aimed directly at you is going to be annoying. Height has little to do with anything unless that vehicle is directly behind you. Then you have those people behind you who pull a bit to the left when you're sitting at a light and shine their lights into your side mirror.

Then you said,_ "..my car headlights are supposedly "brighter", although no one complains about them"_. Not so. I work with people who drive at night for a living. No one likes overly bright car lights...unless they are on their car. LoL. I've said this before and I'll say it again, "I don't complain ( off forum ) about bright car lights so much anymore ( or flash my high beams at people ) BECAUSE...so many people have very bright lights. I can't tell who's running high beams and who's not! As such I accept it as a given and ignore it as much as possible. That doesn't mean it isn't an issue or that I'm indifferent to someone's overly bright car lights.

One other issue I want to mention that might have been over-looked in the discussion: When discussing how lights annoy other people I hope that everyone commenting KNOWS that we are discussing cyclists riding WITH TRAFFIC and not against. I only mention this because some people I've talked to on this subject think a person riding a bike should ride AGAINST TRAFFIC which is of course WRONG and illegal. If you did do this than YES INDEED, YOUR LIGHTS WOULD ANNOY THE HELL OUT OF ON COMING TRAFFIC! :nono: Hopefully, no one here is assuming riding a bike on the road this way.


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## tb123 (Dec 20, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> One other issue I want to mention that might have been over-looked in the discussion: When discussing how lights annoy other people I hope that everyone commenting KNOWS that we are discussing cyclists riding WITH TRAFFIC and not against. I only mention this because some people I've talked to on this subject think a person riding a bike should ride AGAINST TRAFFIC which is of course WRONG and illegal. If you did do this than YES INDEED, YOUR LIGHTS WOULD ANNOY THE HELL OUT OF ON COMING TRAFFIC! :nono: Hopefully, no one here is assuming riding a bike on the road this way.


Each to their own cat, but like I said before, cars, vans, trucks, motorbikes etc "should" all have their low beam aimed correctly at the road, not up and at distance like most bike lights are 

One thing though, based on your last comment, are you saying this discussion is about riding up BEHIND a car? I dont see why that would be annoying at all, however on any two lane road, (not a four lane highway) i dont really see what difference it would make which side the approaching bicycle is on when both car and bike is approaching each other head on (im not suggesting people should ride on the wrong side of the road) If you think about the driver sitting close to the middle of the road, there is probably only a meter or two difference in the approaching light and either way the motorist is virtually looking into the oncoming beam.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> You know it's come to my attention that I'm seeing more cyclist using commuter style lights ( and rear blinkies) which I suppose is great but surprisingly* I'm still not seeing some of these people until they are crossing right in front of me.* I think what is really needed is more "Side Visibility" because almost every cyclist I see riding at night has almost none. The ones I do see well are the ones with good reflectors on the wheels and reflective clothing. However I'm beginning to feel* there is a real need for some " side led lighting". *I've been using wheel lights on occasion and while they work great they might be a bit of over-kill. I'll continue using them because over-kill is better than me-getting-killed. Other riders might what to consider a set of cheap knog/frog type blinkies on the frame for some side visibility and/or some reflective tape here and there.


This was high up on my list of "wants" when I started the DesignShine project. Side lighting as good or better than vehicle side markers at night....turned out pretty nice.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

tb123 said:


> Each to their own cat, but like I said before, cars, vans, trucks, motorbikes etc "should" all have their low beam aimed correctly at the road, not up and at distance like most bike lights are
> 
> ..... on any two lane road, (not a four lane highway) i dont really see what difference it would make which side the approaching bicycle is on when both car and bike is approaching each other head on (im not suggesting people should ride on the wrong side of the road) If you think about the driver sitting close to the middle of the road, there is probably only a meter or two difference in the approaching light and either way the motorist is virtually looking into the oncoming beam.


About the first comment: Keep in mind all cars and trucks have spill light. Some more than others and that spill travels a good distance. That spill can be quite annoying as well depending on how bright the head lights are. All I have to do is drive down the average 4 lane highway at night and I get lots of annoying light spill. So far I've yet to encounter a bike at night where I was annoyed by an excess of light, spill or otherwise. To tell the truth, I'd rather be annoyed by a cyclist using too much light than to see someone riding a bike on the road with no light at all. The last being the most dangerous situation of all. ( X2 if riding on the wrong side )

Now about riding on a narrow two lane road, yes I see your point. Just remember that it does make a difference. A bicyclist has an inherent right to ride "IN THE ROAD" if he has to ( if the road is narrow or there is debris) . If a cyclist was riding on the wrong side of the road and tried to claim a portion of the road to avoid something on the shoulder THAT would be a big problem, ( to on-coming traffic ) particularly at night.

I have no problem with agreeing that a cyclist riding at night should aim and use lights in a appropriate manner ( using only the amount of light necessary to see ) as long as his safety is not an issue. Now if there are hazardous conditions ( traffic exiting from side streets, intersections, narrow shoulders, debris or wildlife in the road...etc ) than a cyclist has a right to protect his own skin. If that means using the high beams a bit, so be it. That's one of the reasons I like having a remote switch as it makes these things faster and easier.

I don't think anyone would tell someone riding a motorcycle that their light(s) are too bright. Yes, they are bright and they need to be because they face more danger than a car or truck. Now extend that concept to bikes and you will begin to understand where I am coming from.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Hi All,
I'm at the mercy of other people on getting anymore information. My friend at the bike shop did say that it was the federal DOT and that their intention was to ban the sale of the 3000 unit. It's something but I wish I had more.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> About the first comment: Keep in mind all cars and trucks have spill light. Some more than others and that spill travels a good distance. That spill can be quite annoying as well depending on how bright the head lights are. All I have to do is drive down the average 4 lane highway at night and I get lots of annoying light spill. So far I've yet to encounter a bike at night where I was annoyed by an excess of light, spill or otherwise. To tell the truth, I'd rather be annoyed by a cyclist using too much light than to see someone riding a bike on the road with no light at all. The last being the most dangerous situation of all. ( X2 if riding on the wrong side )
> 
> Now about riding on a narrow two lane road, yes I see your point. Just remember that it does make a difference. A bicyclist has an inherent right to ride "IN THE ROAD" if he has to ( if the road is narrow or there is debris) . If a cyclist was riding on the wrong side of the road and tried to claim a portion of the road to avoid something on the shoulder THAT would be a big problem, ( to on-coming traffic ) particularly at night.
> 
> ...


The only thing I agree with in this post is that a bike with no light is worse than one with an excessively bright one, but this a lesser of two evils situation. I'm glad your finally acknowledge the existance and problems with light spill. Funny how you totally ignorede spill when I was posting my experiments showing how horrible a bike light is compared to a "Tightly regulated for spill and beam pattern" car light. That being said imagine what a bike light with anything close to the lumen output of a car would look like. Beyond annoyung, Super annoying, or maybe blinding, take your pick. You go on to say that you've never seen a bike light that was annoying but in your own words you admit that only a tiny portion of the bike lights used are the more powerful ones (all the people I know with these run them on low on the street), JohnJ has even posted that he has never seen anybody that runs even close to his lumen output on the street, so it only makes sense that no bike light has annoyed you. I remember you responded to one of my posts saying you never said you agreed to JohnJ's lumen output but by looking at the way you attack any poster that suggests bike lights are worse than a car light in any way, that there might be a problem, or that maybe we or the bike light manufacturers might want to be proactive with a solution and yet have never said anything directly to JohnJ, by not saying anything you are agreeing with him.
I don't totally disagree with you on the cyclists right to protect themselves as long as your not creating an even more damgerous situation to do so. Shining a helmet light in another drivers eyes is not acceptable, thats what brakes are for. I coiuld even live with the one poster who did this with a 200 lumen light, 750 lumens (criminal!). A couple of posts before John made this claim he said 300 lumens shined directly at someone was too much. Remember Cat, by not saying anythine you are agreeing with him. Also remember we are the small fish in the pond. We don't have the right to use the roads, We are allowed to use the roads as long as we follow the laws. Shining a helmet light in another drivers eyes is the least safe solution to the problem I can think of and only passes the danger off to anyone around the car, front, back , or on either side. Slow down if you have to, use your brakes, add a blinky light for extra visability, or run 2600 lumens using eliptical lenses (Cat you have this option on your 808e and your gloworm,
and John I know that Actions lens will fit some Lupine's and if it's not your model it will give you an excuse to buy a new one!). Being a small percent of the road using population if we fight the system we are only going to lose more privlages.
As far as the motorcycle thing, they have headlights with controlled spill and beampatterns similar to a cars. Please stop with the debate tatics (diverting attenting away from the topic, ignoring facts that would nulify the validity of your points and comments). If you continue to use these tactics it will decrease the creditability of the things you say which would be ashame because on everything other than this topic I consider you "THE MTBR GUY". I'm not mad at anyone but I ask that any of you who practice some of the things mentioned here to please re-evaluate your actions because they effect us all.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

mrmole - you post is really hard to follow and I don't understand what you've written. But let me net it out for you since you seem intent on putting words in my mouth.

1. Any light - even my 10 lumen Arclight key ring flashlight can be see as too bright: It's a function of distance and being direct on beam. My 10 lumen key chaining flashlight is too bright at 1 foot and closer. More than that, not an issue. Same is true for 300 lumens, but just change the ranges. Put it 2 car lengths a way and it's not too bright since it's a tiny tiny part of your field of view. Same thing for a 750 lumen light - only probably double the distance. Similarly a car headlight a long way off is not irritating nor particularly remarkable even if you are direct on to the beam - same for a bike headlight. Lumens are lumens and distance is distance. And the relationship of light on target is a square law thing if I recall.

I apologize for not qualifying my statement that allowed you to imply that I was categorically saying x lumens is too bright. Simply wasn't what I was trying to say is how you portrayed it.

2. I have a 1500 lumen light on my bars (Lupine). They are pretty accurate give or take for out the front lumens. Let's say it's roughly as bright as a single car headlight. It's not a problem a few car lengths away - lets say 100' even if it's aimed right at my eyes. Just about the same for a car headlight. I notice little difference between them for being irritation. at that distance (approx) neither is irritating but they do have my attention - which, incidentally is a big part of their function. The other part being the illumination of the path/road ahead.

3. Shining that 750 lumen light which has a wide-ish beam is not at all irritating or blinding to a driver at the distance I do it. I'm never closer than a car length at which point I would think it might be irritating. There are people who are sensitive to bright lights and people who have difficulty driving at night. Many of them, if evaluated would not be legally allowed to drive at night. That is not my problem, it is theirs. My problem is my safety and I intend -whether on a bike or in a car (makes little difference) to make sure I'm seen. 

4. Just because someone may be irritated that I got their attention does not mean that what I did was unsafe. Yes, it can be irritating to have a bright light shined on you (it is irritating to have someone approach you with their hi beams on) but it is not particularly dangerous and we've all been reminded, even with low beams, in driver's ed to not stare at the headlight of opposing vehicles. Anyone stupid enough to do so deserves the irritation that goes with knowingly looking into a bright light source (duh). 

So, again, this is a solution looking for a problem. Go out and ride and night and see how that changes your perceptions - both as a driver and and as a cyclist. My bet is the few (vanishingly small number) of people have ever been shined by a cyclist with 3000 lumens and, of that, a tiny tiny percentage where damaged or blinded or whatever. So this is a big waste of time. Let's wait until everyone has 3000 lumen lights available from the LBS for $24.95 before we need to worry about this - if even then.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> As far as the motorcycle thing, they have headlights with controlled spill and beampatterns similar to a cars. Please stop with the debate tatics (diverting attenting away from the topic, ignoring facts that would nulify the validity of your points and comments). If you continue to use these tactics it will decrease the creditability of the things you say which would be ashame because on everything other than this topic I consider you "THE MTBR GUY". I'm not mad at anyone but I ask that any of you who practice some of the things mentioned here to please re-evaluate your actions because they effect us all.


First, I'm just another person with an opinion. My opinion doesn't preempt those of others ( regardless of how often I post ). If I thought that way I would be very naive. I share my views because I like a lively discussion on occasion. This has been such an occasion. I hold no ill will towards others who differ in opinion. Because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I am attacking them. I am stating an opinion that shows a different point of view. If you disagree with me that's your right and I'm fine with that. I have no problem with that as long as it doesn't get personal. So far it hasn't so I'm good.

I'm surprised you didn't think the analogy with a motorcycle was fitting ( two wheels, about the same height and they have bright lights ). You say that a motorcycle headlight is designed for the road. I can buy that. That doesn't mean that they aren't still bright as hell ( as they should be ). I do need to point out though that any lamp is designed to control spill. If it has an optic or reflector it will control spill and aim a portion of the light in a select area. The light that escapes those designs is usually referred to as spill but technically all light is spill if there is no reflector or optic. Regardless, I understand your point that some lamps are better at controlling spill than others. Which of those are suitable for the road we are going to have to agree to disagree.

For a moment let's take the motorcycle analogy a different direction. ( bear with me ). Ever notice how some motorcycles are very, very loud. Need I say some would find that noise very annoying. However if you talk to the riders they will tell you that "they want the bike loud so people know they are there". Makes sense I suppose if you are on the road but if you live next door to that person the noise in the morning is enough to wake the dead. . Apply that logic to bike lights and you will understand that we too, "Just want other people to know we are there". If what we use as bike lights annoys some people is there really anything we can do about it? My opinion, probably not because you are not going to please everyone. Hell, for that matter there are people who believe we shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

Things being as they are, a couple good words from an old Rick Nelson song:

..._But it's alright now,
...I've learned my lesson well, 
...you see you can't please everyone..so you, have to please yourself._


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> Shining a helmet light in another drivers eyes is not acceptable, thats what brakes are for.


ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee hee

-wait, I just have to pick myself up from the floor and control my convulsive laughter-

Seriously man, you've clearly never been T-boned by a driver pulling out of a side street. Your brakes aren't going to do squat if that driver pulls out just as you pass him, or left hooks you as you cross an intersection.

I do what ever I have to in order to stay safe and that includes alerting my presence to the majority of witless inattentive drivers on the road. You can take the moral high ground if you wish, but I guarantee you that it won't make broken bones hurt less or heal faster.

As for the main thrust of your internet argument, have you _ever_ seen or heard of anyone using a 3000lm light on full on the road? Even once? It makes no sense and it sounds like you're chasing a hypothetical cat up a non-existent tree trying to argue that it's even approaching something worth spending ATP thinking about.


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

I have to say, when I started night riding after a 10 year hiatus I was thrilled with my magic shine 808/816 combo (probably 1500ish lumens total)

The performance was better than I remembered compared to my old nightsuns and I was happy but I'm not the less is more type. I always rode with everything on full tilt all the time, on or off road. A few timea drivers flashed me or seed annoyed but it was tolerable

Fast forward 2 years, I just started up my night riding season again and have been running with a Gemini Olympia on the bars, an XML Titan on the helmet (2700 lumens) and an extra mj 872 on the bars that I rarely turn on which is probably another 1200 lumens or so.

The first night I rode I had a police officer pull off to the side and follow me for a minute to see what I was. When I got to the trail I found for once that just the Olympia/titan on high were too much. The trails are covered in pine needles bordered by sparse low shrubs and I was having issues where I would overshoot the turns cause the area illuminated gave the impression that it was a straightaway. I didn't think it was possible to have too many lumens on the trail but I found full high was just too much. No need for the mj872 at all


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> ....this is a big waste of time. Let's wait until everyone has 3000 lumen lights available from the LBS for $24.95 before we need to worry about this - if even then.
> 
> J.


:lol:...well said John. Word is the masses are just waiting to get theirs with the migrant workers being first in line. Soon every Wal-mart bicycle will have one. 

*Posted by the Frog*


> ....sounds like you're chasing a hypothetical cat up a non-existent tree trying to argue that it's even approaching something worth spending ATP thinking about.


Hypothetical my Arse!!....


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

mattthemuppet said:


> ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee hee
> 
> -wait, I just have to pick myself up from the floor and control my convulsive laughter-
> 
> ...


Exactly right. And it is *much* more likely to happen at night. If you have as much light as a car would have, you get much more respect. I like to have enough light that it's hard to believe it's a bike. That makes drivers cautious and careful.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone wouldn't understand this... unless they don't ride much at night.

J.


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm with Matt and John on this one. 

The last time I shined a light directly into a driver's eyes, I was crossing a street. I was in the crosswalk, I had unclipped and was walking my bike, I had the green, my helmet light was on and my planet bike superflash was on. The car just kept coming at me and almost hit me. I purposely shined the light into the driver's eyes and he stopped cold, about a foot from me. I kept the light on him for a second or two and he hunched down into his seat and hid his eyes.

In my opinion, you need enough light to be able to use it as a defensive weapon.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee hee
> 
> -wait, I just have to pick myself up from the floor and control my convulsive laughter-
> 
> ...


1-Glad I gave you a laugh!
2-No I've never been t-boned. I have put in 10-13 thousand miles a year in for the past 8 years and never felt or needed to use this tactic.
3-I'll take the moral high ground. I understand this is a dangerous activity, but it's one you choose to participate in and I don't feel you have the right to impare another drivers vision to make yourself safer, passing the danger off to them. Flashing your light in their direction I could live with, but shining it in their eyes(what you quoted me on) is still unacceptable in my opinion. I expected flak from my post because this a bike light forum
and "You" might find a few like minded indivduals here, but the names your called by the bike shop employee's and other customers in the shops I frequent (5 regularily) when I tell about this practice would not be allowed on this forum. This a bicycle enviroment - imagine what the general public thinks. I hope you care.
4-I don't know why you think this is the main thrust of my posts. The only comments I can remember making about the NR3000 is sharing the information I had heard about the possible ban on sales and scarrrry. Since you brought this up, you get to hear 1 more of my opinions. At this point in time I'm shocked at the DOT involvement in this. I've never seen or heard of anyone using this light on the street. I'm inclined to think that it's just the lumen rating that cought the DOT's attention.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> mrmole - you post is really hard to follow and I don't understand what you've written. But let me net it out for you since you seem intent on putting words in my mouth.
> 
> 1. Any light - even my 10 lumen Arclight key ring flashlight can be see as too bright: It's a function of distance and being direct on beam. My 10 lumen key chaining flashlight is too bright at 1 foot and closer. More than that, not an issue. Same is true for 300 lumens, but just change the ranges. Put it 2 car lengths a way and it's not too bright since it's a tiny tiny part of your field of view. Same thing for a 750 lumen light - only probably double the distance. Similarly a car headlight a long way off is not irritating nor particularly remarkable even if you are direct on to the beam - same for a bike headlight. Lumens are lumens and distance is distance. And the relationship of light on target is a square law thing if I recall.
> 
> ...


Changing your post makes no difference to me. It still wouldn't change my opinion.
That many lumens is going to impare the other drivers vision period and is not right!
My main problem with your posts is that you never acknowledge that a bike light is a offroad design and you can't compare lumen to lumen between bike and car lights (which you always do). About the NR3000, I, heard nothing to indicate use/abuse of this light as being the DOT's issue with it so unless I hear something I'm assuming it's just the lumen rating.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ThinkBike said:


> I'm with Matt and John on this one.
> 
> The last time I shined a light directly into a driver's eyes, I was crossing a street. I was in the crosswalk, I had unclipped and was walking my bike, I had the green, my helmet light was on and my planet bike superflash was on. The car just kept coming at me and almost hit me. I purposely shined the light into the driver's eyes and he stopped cold, about a foot from me. I kept the light on him for a second or two and he hunched down into his seat and hid his eyes.
> 
> In my opinion, you need enough light to be able to use it as a defensive weapon.


On the road I usually use a torch on my helmet as back up. So far I've not had to aim it at a car but if I had to do it to protect myself I would. Usually I don't even turn it on unless I feel I'm in a dangerous environment with lots of traffic around me. I like the strobe mode ( for momentary use ). If I'm coming off a yield ramp or approaching traffic coming off a yield ramp I will turn the strobe on and run it long enough for me to know that I am not threatened. Generally that is maybe several seconds that it takes me to clear the ramp or intersection. If it's night the light is aimed at the ground where the reflective bounce is very visual. If used during the day it might be necessary to point it at ( or near ) a car ( in the same situation ) but if I did, just a couple seconds would suffice to draw one's attention. In a more urban environment I would probably use the helmet light on mid to low and just let it run.

With the amount of distractions that the average car driver deals with everyday you really do need an aggressive approach to bike safety if you want to protect your skin.
Whatever your commuting environment, tactics to protect your skin will change. Use what you need to use. It's your life on the line and your call. If there's a moral high ground to be taken this should be it's pinnacle.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> First, I'm just another person with an opinion. My opinion doesn't preempt those of others ( regardless of how often I post ). If I thought that way I would be very naive. I share my views because I like a lively discussion on occasion. This has been such an occasion. I hold no ill will towards others who differ in opinion. Because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I am attacking them. I am stating an opinion that shows a different point of view. If you disagree with me that's your right and I'm fine with that. I have no problem with that as long as it doesn't get personal. So far it hasn't so I'm good.
> 
> I'm surprised you didn't think the analogy with a motorcycle was fitting ( two wheels, about the same height and they have bright lights ). You say that a motorcycle headlight is designed for the road. I can buy that. That doesn't mean that they aren't still bright as hell ( as they should be ). I do need to point out though that any lamp is designed to control spill. If it has an optic or reflector it will control spill and aim a portion of the light in a select area. The light that escapes those designs is usually referred to as spill but technically all light is spill if there is no reflector or optic. Regardless, I understand your point that some lamps are better at controlling spill than others. Which of those are suitable for the road we are going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> ...


I'll start with the attack comments I made. Nobody likes to be ganged up on. Every time someone posted something you didn't agree with it would be you & John continuously disagreeing with their comments till they would just stop posting and not come back.
I hope you didn't do this on purpose but it was a very effective of driving people away from this thread which looked like an attack to me. I'm going to accept some of the responsibility because even though I didn't agree with you pretty much across the board
I felt it was better to stay off the thread. I felt it was not right not to share the NR3000 news and then the thread tanked in my opinion.
The thing aboiut the motorcycle is the same exact issue to me as with car lights. I've been trying to find out the max lumen for a motorcycle with no luck but I know they have to meet similar top spill standards just like a car. So if you guys want to put motorcycle lights on your bikes it's fine with me (Joke). This is one of my main issues with you and John in the fact that the DOT thinks this (top spill) is a major safety issue and the two of you ignore it comparing car and bicycle lights lumen to lumen.
After be around motorcycles for years I'd say you might not want to use this (loud pipes are safer) since my experence was they just say that to justify running straight pipes for sound, looks, and performance purposes even thugh they won't admit it publicly. I know we're not going to agree on most thing in this post because we're comming at it from different perspectives. I promise not take any of this personal.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> ....After be around motorcycles for years I'd say you might not want to use this (loud pipes are safer) since my experence was they just say that to justify running straight pipes for sound, looks, and performance purposes even thugh they won't admit it publicly. I know we're not going to agree on most thing in this post because we're comming at it from different perspectives. I promise not take any of this personal.


Understood....I've been group criticized before, it's never pleasant.

Um....now about your opinion on motorcycle pipes....You might "NOT" want to go up to anyone riding a very loud Harley Davidson and tell them that. They might not be as accommodating as I am. :thumbsup:


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

In reguards to shining your helmet lights in drivers eyes - I've had a couple of thoughts on a solution that will make us all happy. Outside of this venue this practice is considered a radcial and dangerous act. I'm not sure if its illegal but if it is you probably would not be able to collect damages if the car hit you anyway which I'm sure wouldn't make any of you happy ( not my good idea but something else you might not have of thought of). The more you promote this practice, the more people that are going to be doing it, and the more attention it will attract. If laws are passed or its already illegal and gets the attention of the DOT what do you think will happen? My guess is that they will outlaw the use of helmet lights on the street. Not very difficult for the police to spot and I'm sure something they would be happy to enforce (remember - radical and dangerous idea to the general public). If you stop posting about this it will minimize the spread of this parctice (which will make me happy) and keep you under the radar (which will make you happy).What do you think?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Understood....I've been group criticized before, it's never pleasant.
> 
> Um....now about your opinion on motorcycle pipes....You might "NOT" want to go up to anyone riding a very loud Harley Davidson and tell them that. They might not be as accommodating as I am. :thumbsup:


That was inside information for posting purposes only. I generally avoid harleys on my bicycle. They do like my 2007 raleigh XXIX - 1 gear, no suspension, Dirty Red paint w/black letters and gold trim in kind of retro design. They don't like spandex unless it's
on a girl.
Since this is a light forum - You should see how much the light from the bar bounces when I take this on out. It would be interesting to do a timed exposure on a trail section comparing this to all my variou form of suspended bikes. Does this meet the "minimal lighting content" part of this forum now?


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> In reguards to shining your helmet lights in drivers eyes - I've had a couple of thoughts on a solution that will make us all happy. Outside of this venue this practice is considered a radcial and dangerous act. I'm not sure if its illegal but if it is you probably would not be able to collect damages if the car hit you anyway which I'm sure wouldn't make any of you happy ( not my good idea but something else you might not have of thought of). The more you promote this practice, the more people that are going to be doing it, and the more attention it will attract. If laws are passed or its already illegal and gets the attention of the DOT what do you think will happen? My guess is that they will outlaw the use of helmet lights on the street. Not very difficult for the police to spot and I'm sure something they would be happy to enforce (remember - radical and dangerous idea to the general public). If you stop posting about this it will minimize the spread of this parctice (which will make me happy) and keep you under the radar (which will make you happy).What do you think?


I know what you mean. So far I had two city cops who reacted to my lights. In both cases, I was running my lights on medium power and about 1800 lumens total including my helmet light. It was my helmet light that got their attention in both cases.

One cop flashed his spotlight at me and flicker it from across the intersection. The second cop waited down at the main street and blocking a turn lane while I was 7 blocks traveling down from the opposite direction. When I passed the awaiting cop, he had his window down and stared at my helmet. He proceeded to drive off only after I passed him.

My coworker has just about copied everything I done so far. He added two BRIV lights running on strobe and added a helmet flashlights when I was using my BRIV light. At first, I was a little worry he and I will get the cops in our city piss off. We talked several times and I found out how many close call he had riding to work in the dark using the same route I use from the train station. Since the upgrades in light and helmet light pratice, he hardly gets any close calls. I felt a little selflish for not wanting him to have the same luxery I had for granted.

Local ordiance and DOT can have all the saying they want about what to regulate, but I am sure we cyclist will always find ways of improvising ways and method to increase our safety factor. If the city ban helmet lights in my area, I think I will just mod two high power handle bar mounted flashlight pointed outward aim at eye level with a pressure switch and flick at every cars that do not see me approaching. Then what the is the DOT going to do? Ban Hi/Lo beam flashing?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

MRMOLE said:


> In reguards to shining your helmet lights in drivers eyes - I've had a couple of thoughts on a solution that will make us all happy. Outside of this venue this practice is considered a radcial and dangerous act. I'm not sure if its illegal but if it is you probably would not be able to collect damages if the car hit you anyway which I'm sure wouldn't make any of you happy ( not my good idea but something else you might not have of thought of). The more you promote this practice, the more people that are going to be doing it, and the more attention it will attract. If laws are passed or its already illegal and gets the attention of the DOT what do you think will happen? My guess is that they will outlaw the use of helmet lights on the street. Not very difficult for the police to spot and I'm sure something they would be happy to enforce (remember - radical and dangerous idea to the general public). If you stop posting about this it will minimize the spread of this parctice (which will make me happy) and keep you under the radar (which will make you happy).What do you think?


Just a question - do you actually ride at night with a light?

Seriously, no one is going to waste legislative time on outlawing helmet bike lights. I mean, come on, this is getting really ridiculous.

Oh, wait, there's a group outside with signs protesting bike riders with helmet lights....

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> ....My coworker has just about copied everything I done so far. He added two BRIV lights *running on strobe* and added a helmet flashlights when I was using my BRIV light. At first, I was a little worry he and I will get the cops in our city piss off. We talked several times and I found out how many close call he had riding to work in the dark using the same route I use from the train station. *Since the upgrades in light and helmet light pratice, he hardly gets any close calls. * I felt a little selflish for not wanting him to have the same luxery I had for granted....


Wow...two BRIV's on strobe! That's almost insane! 

I think in an urban environment there are always going to be close calls especially when you consider that some people drive like it's their last day on earth. It is my hope that the products designed for bike visibility/Awareness will continue to evolve.

With a good combination of lights ( front/rear/helmet/bars) and some strategic placing of smaller led/reflectors on the frame/wheels, you might actually be more safer at night that in the day ( depending on the environment ). I hate the idea of having a bike looking like a carnival on wheels but until there is a better option to improve safety I see no other option.

I plan doing some road rides in a more rural setting during the spring and summer. In that environment bikes are a rare thing. I plan using a strobe on the rear to alert traffic approaching from the rear ( daytime ). In the evening I should be good with my regular set-up.


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## OmaHaq (Jun 1, 2010)

Depends on a lot of things...

I do the far majority of my true "night" riding on a groomed dirt trail that is about 10ft wide and is packed with bikers coming and going in both directions. There are NO lights and it is off the beaten path... a weekly booze cruise so to speak with thousands of people.

I used to run a 1watt all-in-one, then I went to two of them. Now I run an old 150lumen MiNewt. I can't see going much higher than 350lumens in that environment because of how busy it is. 

Adventure racing, I run the biggest light I can afford.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ThinkBike said:


> I'm with Matt and John on this one.
> 
> The last time I shined a light directly into a driver's eyes, I was crossing a street. I was in the crosswalk, I had unclipped and was walking my bike, I had the green, my helmet light was on and my planet bike superflash was on. The car just kept coming at me and almost hit me. I purposely shined the light into the driver's eyes and he stopped cold, about a foot from me. I kept the light on him for a second or two and he hunched down into his seat and hid his eyes.
> 
> In my opinion, you need enough light to be able to use it as a defensive weapon.


Hi ThinkBike,
I know you didn't quote me but in this situation I consider your actions appropriate and justified.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

colleen c said:


> I know what you mean. So far I had two city cops who reacted to my lights. In both cases, I was running my lights on medium power and about 1800 lumens total including my helmet light. It was my helmet light that got their attention in both cases.
> 
> One cop flashed his spotlight at me and flicker it from across the intersection. The second cop waited down at the main street and blocking a turn lane while I was 7 blocks traveling down from the opposite direction. When I passed the awaiting cop, he had his window down and stared at my helmet. He proceeded to drive off only after I passed him.
> 
> ...


Of course the DOT thing was hypothetical. I like your strobe comments. I've had cyclists with very bright lights approach me that blended in with traffic and I didn't notice them till they were very close but with a strobe you stand out from a much greater distance.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

WIth a very bright strobe you standout much better. My tail light is a 300 lumen flasher (Dinotte 300R).

As well, setting your headlight to flash - and if it's nice and powerful - works very well in an urban environment.

J.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> Just a question - do you actually ride at night with a light?
> 
> Seriously, no one is going to waste legislative time on outlawing helmet bike lights. I mean, come on, this is getting really ridiculous.
> 
> ...


3-5 hours a week at night with a light on. The helmet light ban was a hypothetical comment. I'm just trying to get you to not recommend this tactic to other riders.
As always I enjoy the sarcasm.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> Of course the DOT thing was hypothetical. I like your strobe comments. I've had cyclists with very bright lights approach me that blended in with traffic and I didn't notice them till they were very close but with a strobe you stand out from a much greater distance.


I cannot take full credit for that idea. Someone a while back at Bikeforum asked about using those optional add on pressure remote switch in place of the clicky switch. That idea gave me some thought of my 3x XML DD flashlight which I hacked it and made it a bike light with a remote switch and external battery pack. Unfortunately the driver got nuked from the heat but still operational only in high mode. It either off or on in high. Now it got me thinking putting the remote switch right at my finger tip and making it a "strobe on demand" to get driver attention at problematic intersection.

Imagine having 2000 lumens flickering at you at a non random pattern when you are backing out of a driveway in a car. Come to think of it, it might not be a bad idea for manufactor of bike light to include this as an option where you can flicker on/off the light on high just like the hi/lo in a car light switch.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

hey MRMOLE, if you think alerting yourself to a dozy driver (or teenager texting or granma without her bifocals on etc etc) by a quick flick of your light in their direction is a bad thing, power to you. I really couldn't care less what you, people in bike shops or even cops think about me doing this - I do it purely for my own safety and I struggle to see how it can negatively affect the driver in question. I don't hold my light on their face, I don't aim it at on coming traffic or even cars that are moving, so that argument is moot. Anecdotally, I had to do this on 3 separate occasions (once crossing a road at a stop light, twice on a main road coming up to side junctions) on one 2 mile night commute, of which I ride perhaps half on the road. Arguing that people shouldn't use their lights for the main reason people use lights on a commuter, ie. ensuring their safety, seems absurd.

As for the hypothetical scenario of laws being passed about this, that's as likely as me holidaying on Mars next summer. It took concrete evidence and years of campaigning to enact laws banning cell phone use/ texting while driving (the no. one cause of me having to flash my light into drivers' eyes) and look how well that's been enforced.

Seriously, you're coming across as some kind of granddad arguing that cantilever brakes will cause widespread concussion due to their increased power over side pulls resulting in endemic over the bar incidences


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> .... Come to think of it, it might not be a bad idea for manufactor of bike light to include this as an option where you can flicker on/off the light on high just like the hi/lo in a car light switch.


It would be nice if the commuter style lights included a second switch for operation of the strobe separately so you had quick on/off operation.. Strobe lights are great for drawing people's attention as long as the flash rate is not too fast ( once every 2sec is great ). Even better if you have a remote control. Like others have said, sometimes a regular light ( regardless of intensity ) get's lost in the mix of the other high output lights ( both on and off the road ).


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

MRMOLE said:


> 3-5 hours a week at night with a light on. The helmet light ban was a hypothetical comment.* I'm just trying to get you to not recommend this tactic to other riders.*
> As always I enjoy the sarcasm.


Not going to happen. It works well and it blinds no one.

J.


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

I ride with two rules in mind:

1. Don't die.

2. Be courteous

Once number 1 is taken care of, I have time for number 2.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

ThinkBike said:


> I ride with two rules in mind:
> 
> 1. Don't die.
> 
> ...


I like that. I'm going to use that, if that's ok.

Oh, and I agree.

J.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> hey MRMOLE, if you think alerting yourself to a dozy driver (or teenager texting or granma without her bifocals on etc etc) by a quick flick of your light in their direction is a bad thing, power to you. I really couldn't care less what you, people in bike shops or even cops think about me doing this - I do it purely for my own safety and I struggle to see how it can negatively affect the driver in question. I don't hold my light on their face, I don't aim it at on coming traffic or even cars that are moving, so that argument is moot. Anecdotally, I had to do this on 3 separate occasions (once crossing a road at a stop light, twice on a main road coming up to side junctions) on one 2 mile night commute, of which I ride perhaps half on the road. Arguing that people shouldn't use their lights for the main reason people use lights on a commuter, ie. ensuring their safety, seems absurd.
> 
> As for the hypothetical scenario of laws being passed about this, that's as likely as me holidaying on Mars next summer. It took concrete evidence and years of campaigning to enact laws banning cell phone use/ texting while driving (the no. one cause of me having to flash my light into drivers' eyes) and look how well that's been enforced.
> 
> Seriously, you're coming across as some kind of granddad arguing that cantilever brakes will cause widespread concussion due to their increased power over side pulls resulting in endemic over the bar incidences


As time goes on descriptions of how the helmet lights are used soften. Post#44 "If I have any doubt whether a person making a left or pulling out from a side street can see me, I blind them - on purpose" - Post #75 "I ride with 750 lumens on my helmet specifically so I can shine it in the eyes of drivers turning left....."
These are the posts that formed my opinion on this issue in my poat #81. Also if you go back to this post and read between my "use the brakes" comment you enjoyed so much and my (criminal!) comment that I assume got everyone else going I made a comment about a poster with a 200 lumen helmet light that "I could live with" (that was you). That was under the assumption that you were shining at the drivers eyes, not flicking at them to alert them to your presence. Before you made your first post to me I had already said what you do to protect yourself was fine.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> ....I made a comment about a poster with a 200 lumen helmet light that "I could live with" (that was you). That was under the assumption that you were shining at the drivers eyes, not flicking at them to alert them to your presence. Before you made your first post to me I had already said what you do to protect yourself was fine.


Basically I think you misinterpreted what people were telling you. If you're using a helmet light it would be really hard to keep in aimed at anything for more than a couple seconds if you are moving. On a bike your head is always moving looking here and there as well as looking where you're going so you don't hit anything.

Heck, for that matter even a bar light will shine directly at someone here or there. If you are using lights you can't control everything. Most encounters with direct light are brief and harmless anyway.


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

John,

I'd be honored if you and all the other cyclists out there would use those two simple rules.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

MRMOLE said:


> As time goes on descriptions of how the helmet lights are used soften. Post#44 "If I have any doubt whether a person making a left or pulling out from a side street can see me, I blind them - on purpose" - Post #75 "I ride with 750 lumens on my helmet specifically so I can shine it in the eyes of drivers turning left....."
> These are the posts that formed my opinion on this issue in my poat #81. Also if you go back to this post and read between my "use the brakes" comment you enjoyed so much and my (criminal!) comment that I assume got everyone else going I made a comment about a poster with a 200 lumen helmet light that "I could live with" (that was you). That was under the assumption that you were shining at the drivers eyes, not flicking at them to alert them to your presence. Before you made your first post to me I had already said what you do to protect yourself was fine.


What are you, a lawyer that likes to argue the precise semantics of every post? Or maybe the hyperbole police? I mean, if it's not this, then it's worrying about legislation about bike riders with helmet lights. Yikes!

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ThinkBike said:


> John,
> 
> I'd be honored if you and all the other cyclists out there would use those two simple rules.


Actually most of us already do. 


ThinkBike said:


> I ride with two rules in mind:
> 
> 1. Don't die.
> 
> ...


The second rule needs no explanation but #1 is not as clear. "Don't get yourself killed" would be a better way to put it. To do that involves a clear proactive agenda towards bike safety ( both from an operational stand point as well as a visual "see and be seen" road awareness point of view ). Since no two people think alike or ride the same environment, methods to accomplish rule #1 will vary. Basically pretty much what the discussion on this thread has been about.

Since "self preservation" is implied with rule # 1 I'd like to add a rule #3...."Common sense is your best friend". If something looks dangerous it probably is. Go to rule one. :thumbsup:


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> Actually most of us already do.
> 
> The second rule needs no explanation but #1 is not as clear. "Don't get yourself killed" would be a better way to put it. To do that involves a clear proactive agenda towards bike safety ( both from an operational stand point as well as a visual "see and be seen" road awareness point of view ). Since no two people think alike or ride the same environment, methods to accomplish rule #1 will vary. Basically pretty much what the discussion on this thread has been about.
> 
> Since "self preservation" is implied with rule # 1 I'd like to add a rule #3...."Common sense is your best friend". If something looks dangerous it probably is. Go to rule one. :thumbsup:


I agree with everything you've said Cat-man-do. I was thinking of something that would easily fit on a T-Shirt


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## Fury25 (Oct 22, 2008)

You need to grab their attention with the maximum amount of light without blinding them.

Flicker mode @ max power at 10-15 degrees aimed down from horizontal seems to work a charm.

have a look here to see various power beamshots from 30 to 2000 lumes

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/high-lumen-self-contained-bar-lights-780292.html


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Fury25 said:


> Flicker mode @ max power at 10-15 degrees aimed down from horizontal seems to work a charm.


Not sure about the angle you mention but I agree that strobe mode on a helmet is the bomb. Just a momentary flash with my XP-E helmet torch "near" a vehicle is enough to get attention. Since the effect is so dramatic you really do need to use it "only when needed". Just equate it with using ( or tooting ) a car horn and you should get the idea. When you clear the threat turn it off.

On the other hand a bar flasher is a different thing and is designed for general all around use to enhance visibility. Those I leave on when the surrounding traffic calls for more visibility. The difference between the two is "intensity and aim-ability". Used properly they are a great one-two combination.

Like all things there is the possibility of abuse. Stay with rule number 2 and you should be good. I've seen many a car driver abuse their car horn. Don't be like those people. Be nice ( when possible )


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Basically I think you misinterpreted what people were telling you. If you're using a helmet light it would be really hard to keep in aimed at anything for more than a couple seconds if you are moving. On a bike your head is always moving looking here and there as well as looking where you're going so you don't hit anything.
> 
> Heck, for that matter even a bar light will shine directly at someone here or there. If you are using lights you can't control everything. Most encounters with direct light are brief and harmless anyway.


Thanks Cat for taking the time to see thing from my point of view. If you all use your helmet lights like mattthemuppet's description in his last post I have no problem with that and retract my statement of disapproval. I'm actually happy things turned out the way they did because is has provided a better description of this safety tactic in case other people watching this thread misinterpret some of the posts as I did. Sorry if I upset some of you. Mole


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

no problem man, getting an idea across clearly over the internet is hard to do and fraught with danger  I'm glad we all got it straightened out in the end!


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## tracer111 (Feb 29, 2012)

I use a 500-700 lumens on my helmet to direct it better where I want the light to throw, as others have suggested in previous posts.


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## jamesf (May 23, 2012)

colleen c said:


> Imagine having 2000 lumens flickering at you at a non random pattern when you are backing out of a driveway in a car. Come to think of it, it might not be a bad idea for manufactor of bike light to include this as an option where you can flicker on/off the light on high just like the hi/lo in a car light switch.


As someone who commutes home in total darkness (in winter) I can say this is a terrible idea. Flashing lights definitely draw attention but they are also almost impossible to guage distance when you see one coming towards you. The car backing out of a driveway will have no idea how close/far you are and may reverse straight out into your path. A solution to this is if you also have a separate steady light but then you'd want it to be brighter than your flasher so they have a fix on where you are and the flasher just draws attention.

I tend to think that in most situations steady lights are safer anyway, a flashing light is very obviously a bicycle and depending on the driver they may or may not realise that you can still be travelling as fast as a car. If you have a steady and bright light they may think you're a motorcycle and be far less likely to pull out front of you. Of course I then ruin it by also having a light on my helmet (much less bright than the one on my handlebars for obvious reasons) so they pretty much know I'm a bicycle.

So, now I've contradicted myself I'm done


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## Trail Addict (Nov 20, 2011)

There is no such thing as too bright. A light can never be too bright.

I have modded Surefire lights that can go up to 3000 lumens.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Trail Addict said:


> There is no such thing as too bright. A light can never be too bright.
> 
> I have modded Surefire lights that can go up to 3000 lumens.


:thumbsup:


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Trail Addict said:


> There is no such thing as too bright. A light can never be too bright...


....yeah but that's only true if no one else is on the road or on the trail to give a hoot. Otherwise, a light can be too bright. Just how bright is too bright? I can't tell you that as I don't deal in absolutes. I just know usually I'm good at 500 lumen ( on the bars ), road or 700 lumen ( bars ) MTB. Going down hill I'll add another 700 lumen from a helmet light if needed. The only time I use more is MTB'n and that only when no one else is around to really care.

Now with all that said, I'm usually running less. I prefer not to over-drain my batteries just so I can use a super-bright output that I really don't need 90% of the time. I have bright lights and bring them.. I use them when I need them. That's the nice thing about having adjustable lights.

Most of the time the lights I see that are too bright are on cars/pick-ups or in use by road work crews. Just last Friday I got blinded by a cop riding in front of me as I was following him through downtown Baltimore. He was using a flashing LED rear light bar designed to slow and pace traffic. Ironically what was intended to make things safer was blinding everyone driving behind him...go figure. I finally had to put my hand up to block the light or I risked the danger of hitting either a car or worse, a pedestrian. The last time I had to put my hand up to block something too bright was when I was blocking out the setting sun. I think that say's it all.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'd rather have the lumens available and be able to run in lower setting than to not have the lumens available and have needed them.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

jamesf said:


> As someone who commutes home in total darkness (in winter) I can say this is a terrible idea. Flashing lights definitely draw attention but they are also almost impossible to guage distance when you see one coming towards you. The car backing out of a driveway will have no idea how close/far you are and may reverse straight out into your path. A solution to this is if you also have a separate steady light but then you'd want it to be brighter than your flasher so they have a fix on where you are and the flasher just draws attention.


I disagree. Judging distance is only important if you see something first. Flashing lights are very good at drawing attention, that's why the police and Fire Depts use them. Your statement about a car backing out of a driveway AFTER seeing a flashing light goes against common sense. Most people will stop to see what the flashing is. Only the idiot continues to pull out in a situation like that. I do agree with you though that it is better to use a steady ( and flashing ) light in combo when riding in complete darkness on the road, although in such case I would only use the flashing light when the situation called for more "see me" visibility.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Cat-man-do, I disagree with your disagreement of Jamesf. At night, flashing lights do suffer from a depth of field effect, they are noticeable but they can be very difficult to judge distance, which is a major factor in safety. Also, your example of Fire Departments and Police is invalid. Rather it gives evidence to the contrary since both police and fire use an array of always on and strobing lights, which in fact do more to prove Jamesf argument that you need both than it does to contradict it.

Anyone who has driven and seen a simple flashing light and had one of those OMG he is 15ft away and not 100ft moments understands the dangers of only using a simple flash be it front or rear. Jamesf point is that it is much better to use either two lights, one flash and one steady or a light that combines them in a strobe effect (always on with a momentary flash) at night to avoid those momentary depth of field. 

Choosing between one or the other, a bright steady light is safer than an attention getting light, especially in very dark areas, because a flasher will appear to be much farther away than you actually are, which is dangerous. Yes, it is important to be seen first, but not at the cost of the greater case, those who see you and can't properly gauge your distance. For example, what good is a flasher to get the attention of the 1 in 100 person who doesn't see you, if you put in jeopardy the ability of the 99 out of 100 to properly judge their distance to you and avoid you? 

While I applaud your desire to be seen and love reading your posts, my concern is that when you as a forum expert give out misleading advice about safety that could lead to someone else getting hurt. Your advice directly contradicts the industry best practices.

- Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Roger Huston said:


> Cat-man-do, I disagree with your disagreement of Jamesf. At night, flashing lights do suffer from a depth of field effect, they are noticeable but they can be very difficult to judge distance, which is a major factor in safety. Also, your example of Fire Departments and Police is invalid. Rather it gives evidence to the contrary since both police and fire use an array of always on and strobing lights, which in fact do more to prove Jamesf argument that you need both than it does to contradict it.
> 
> Anyone who has driven and seen a simple flashing light and had one of those OMG he is 15ft away and not 100ft moments understands the dangers of only using a simple flash be it front or rear. Jamesf point is that it is much better to use either two lights, one flash and one steady or a light that combines them in a strobe effect (always on with a momentary flash) at night to avoid those momentary depth of field.
> 
> ...


Wow...I really don't know where to begin. Since the discussion was about nighttime "see me" visibility I will start there. Yes, Police and emergency vehicles use both steady and flashing lights. As a road professional I run into these vehicles on a regular basis. Usually I am alerted to their presence ( first ) by sound but sometimes police respond to silent alarms by using lights only. As such if they did not use flashing lights they would just appear as any old vehicle driving fast which would be very, very dangerous. Fact, flashing lights stand out very well ( and draw attention ) especially if they are bright. They are used as an important way to gain attention. If you use just steady light you are fine but having a strobe or flasher helps very much when you have lots of steady lights around you.

Whenever I've been alerted to a ER vehicle in my vicinity by hearing the sirens ( day or night ) the first thing I do is look for flashing lights. I always see them a good ways off so it must be working. I've been in standing back-ups, heard sirens and had no idea which lanes the ER vehicles were using. As soon as you see the flashing lights you know.

I would never say that steady lights are not needed for night bike riding, that would be idiotic. If you have no flashing light ( in front ) that's fine as long as you have some kind of light source. However if you have no steady light source but do have flashers ( front or rear ) that is better than no light source at all. Chances are you will be seen.

I don't know how long it has been since the first led flashers came along but even though they weren't that bright they have probably saved an untold number of lives ( included my own ). Once again keep in mind I am coming from the "SEE ME" perspective and not the "let me see" perspective. I have seen people using "flash only" at night many times and I've never had a problem judging their proximity. That being the case, I don't think I'm particularly blessed with super depth perception. Just keep in mind it's okay to disagree.

If you think cyclist using just flashers/strobes suck, hey whatever...your opinion. Personally I like to use both flash and steady but push-come-to-shove, if I see someone cycling at night with just one light.... I don't care what it is. If it's a single steady led key chain light and I see it I'M THRILLED! If it's flashing I'm good with it as long as I see it. Half the people I see riding at night have no light at all so I'll take anything that emits light on a bike as long as it's bright enough to be seen. :ihih:

( * edit; I am not a forum expert. I'm a opinionated forum user. If you disagree with me...eh...big deal.  I've had many people agree with me and that's fine. On the other hand I've changed my opinion based on what others have said so that happens on occasion too. )


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Cat-man-do,

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion, I enjoy it, even the verbosity of them, most of the time. My issue is when you give out safety advice that is directly contrary to general industry practice and if someone read it, could lead to them getting hurt. 

I understand your logic, on the surface it makes sense. Flashy lights are more attention getting and at night you need to grab people's attention first. I have heard that point of view for many years, in fact, I presented that very question when I bought my first set of bike lights many years ago, Wouldn't a flasher light be more visible at night than a steady light at night?

The answer is yes, but it is more visible but it presents an even greater problem of depth of field. I've been there, on a dark road, seeing a rider with a blinky light thinking he was 200 feet up the road only to find out he was actually much closer which lead to a panic moment. And as we all know, this is where people are the most unpredictable and hence the greater danger.

My point is that this is a public forum and I *DO* believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I also believe that when one person gives an opinion that is directly contrary to that of the industry and to which someone could get hurt as a result, then then it should also be brought to light. Many more people read these forums than post, and a newbie could read what you said and as a result could get hurt, and no one would want that. 

- Roger


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## ToddM (Feb 3, 2004)

Interesting.

Personally I don't really think a bright bike light is that big of a deal to traffic, the one exception I've seen to this is if someone has a bright helmet light and is pointing it at oncoming drivers windshields, or at side traffic. Think what you want but someone shining 1000 lumens into your drivers side window at night is disorienting, the same is true if they point it right at the windshield on a helmet light. Those situations are completely different than what drivers are exposed to from other traffic. That said unless you are trying to be a jack$#& those situations should never happen. The problem with helmet lights in traffic IMO is that riders tend to look at oncoming cars, side traffic etc. and the above two situations happen, I've caught myself doing it many times not thinking that "hey dumb&#& your blinding the poor sap you're looking at!" Those two situations are the only real "blinding" issue I see. 

We've all been driving sometime with an oncoming car across the intersection with a headlight poorly aimed right at us and it's annoying and blinding. That's the same thing that happens when you point a helmet light at an oncoming car or side traffic in their side windows. 

Most cyclists I know riding in traffic are off to the side, which means you would need a super wide flood to get direct beam light into the eyes of oncoming traffic if it's on the bars. Bike lights do have a much higher beam spread but again that's typically only an issue if you are behind cars, in which case that's not much different than dimming a rear view mirror for headlights behind anyway. It's not an issue for oncoming traffic unless you are playing chicken with cars and if that's the case you have bigger problems to worry about than your lights.

I'd also go so far as to say that a brighter headlight is NOT the answer to visibility in traffic. Look at what other things do to gain our attention while we drive. Emergency vehicles don't just turn on their high beams, billboards and such don't just shine extra bright light on them, because it doesn't work it's not effective. They used colored lights, in patterns, ideally flashing, to gain driver attention. Just making something really bright is a poor way to draw attention.

If you really want to be safe and seen by traffic, then a couple of the previous posts talking about either LED strip lighting on the bike, or a flashing LED vest, led valve stem lights from the side etc. that are easily found these days are the best answers if you are REALLY concerned about your visibility to traffic without just wanting an excuse to draw attention and boost your ego with your super bright bike lights.

I can think of two bikes among hundreds I've seen night riding while I was driving that instantly got my attention. One had a rider with an LED blinking reflective safety vest similar to what construction workers wear and a fairly dim headlight and solid red tail light. The second had 2 of the very small strobing strap on LED lights, one red on back and one white on his bars with a pretty dim main headlight, he also had one of those valve stem led lights, those two small strobing lights and the led tire light were more visible and attention grabbing than any super bright light I've seen on a bike, and the side visibility was amazing, no headlight is going to help you be seen from the side. Plus there were no negatives. No blinding traffic, no annoyed drivers, etc.

As to the blinking issue, it's a trade off, it does hamper depth perception, and there have been studies that drunk drivers tend to get mesmerized and target fixate on them, however they absolutely grab your attention. So I believe it's then key to use both, something that is solid on (vest, light, etc) to allow a depth perception, and something that is flashing to gain max attention.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

I have been riding with DesignShine's DS-1300 (headlight) and DS-500 (taillight) for about two months now. The DS-500 being the current brightest taillight on the market, as it was designed for daytime use too. 

About 10 to 1 is my current complement to complaint ratio. "Great Lights, I can see you from a mile away!" Drivers VERY happy that I have taken an active role in helping them see me.

This was daytime use only. At night, yes, I think you can have too bright. The instructions with the DS-500 specifically say not to run it over level 3 (of 5) at night as it is too bright.


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## batvette (Dec 10, 2006)

I ride at night in the city of San Diego and currently keep attached to each bar end a brinkmann 130 lumen 3w luxeon and in the center a "D R Y 3 xm-l CW" torch (which claimed as much as 3000 lumen but is likely closer to 2500, on high it's essentially unregulated, pulling 3.2 amps) and I don't feel it's too bright at all. You DO need to keep it directed down properly then blinding of drivers is minimal. If I'm real close to someone (like at a 4 way stop) I just click the button once and it's on low. 
To expand upon the bar end lights, they weigh just 129 grams each with batteries, are humble so they don't get messed with, and give me light if I'm out and the sun goes down. 
More importantly it's long been known that the human eye can perceive distance of objects as well as their closing speed much better if they have a reference of its size VS the background so if you have an option for more than one light and can mount them apart some distance, by all means do so. 
(I also use a planet bike super blinky tail light)


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

batvette said:


> .....More importantly it's long been known that the human eye can perceive distance of objects as well as their closing speed much better if they have a reference of its size VS the background so if you have an option for more than one light and can mount them apart some distance, by all means do so.
> (I also use a planet bike super blinky tail light)


That is a very astute observation. After reading comments from others it seems that some people have a problem judging distance of illuminated objects at night. Your explanation I think goes a long way in explaining this phenomenon. I agree wholeheartedly with your observation. Having a series of running lights would be an excellent way to highlight your visibility, or to put another way, more points of reference would have to equate to better "see me" visibility.


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