# Where to ride ebikes? USA major issues



## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Having just got back into biking after many years. I really like what is happening all over the world in ebike tech and development. All researched and ready to purchase I thought I'd look for the nearest trails to ride.
I live in North Georgia and there are many great trails near me but almost all ban ebikes, the federal government it turns out classifies ebikes as motorcycles so all local government seems to follow suit. So no riding on mountain bike trails.
Although not clear on all the details ( I will research it thoroughly), it seems that the USA is firmly against ebikes off road.

So is there a group I can join that is working to get ebikes classified properly?

Seems quite obvious that anyone riding a pedal assist ebike is riding a bike, main difference is the ability to climb and ride longer.

Having just discovered this US specific problem, my full suspension off road ebike may have to wait. I have a commuter that I was going to convert later but may do that now and wait on the other.

Looking forward to comments and where to look to correct this obvious problem.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Pennsylvania, class 1 allowed on most trails in state parks and forests. Of course checking first is always good.

New York, e bikes not allowed on trails!

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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Traditional50s said:


> Seems quite obvious that anyone riding a pedal assist ebike is riding a bike, main difference is the ability to climb and ride longer.


...and faster. Which is due to the motor. Not shockingly much of the same issues that impact that occur when people use motorcycles. So when I have to assess the issue I'll lump e-bike in with motorcycles before I'll lump them in with mountain bikes. You may disagree, but my point is what you see as "obvious" does not hold for other people.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

vikb said:


> ...and faster. Which is due to the motor. Not shockingly much of the same issues that impact that occur when people use motorcycles. So when I have to assess the issue I'll lump e-bike in with motorcycles before I'll lump them in with mountain bikes. You may disagree, but my point is what you see as "obvious" does not hold for other people.


Thread is about where to ride...

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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> Thread is about where to ride...


I replied directly to a portion of the OPs post.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Thread is about where to ride...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If that's true then the op probably should have only asked that question instead of adding how an ebike is just a bike and how the US needs to overcome this "problem". Seems like he or she is fishing for a discussion about that too.

Sorry, carry on.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Colorado allows ebikes in state parks, and a couple of large counties with big trail systems (Jeffco and El Paso) allow them on trails in their open space properties. In addition, there are thousands of miles of rugged 4x4 trails on which ebikes are allowed. 

The real issue is the blanket ban by National Forest and BLM, which consider ebikes to be motorcycles. Lots of braindead bureaucracy behind that.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Fortunately, they’re banned on all trails, and gated forest service roads in all of Western North Carolina. 


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

It's a mountain bike ride it when is the last time you seen anyone on mountain bike trails ticketing someone ? What ever gets you our there to enjoy the outdoors do it !

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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Colorado allows ebikes in state parks, and a couple of large counties with big trail systems (Jeffco and El Paso) allow them on trails in their open space properties. In addition, there are thousands of miles of rugged 4x4 trails on which ebikes are allowed.
> 
> The real issue is the blanket ban by National Forest and BLM, which consider ebikes to be motorcycles. Lots of braindead bureaucracy behind that.


Like Colorado Springs Parks, El Paso County Parks allows ebikes on Tier 1 & 2 trails, which are paved and crusher fine MUTs. Not Tier 3, which is singletrack, so allowed on _some_ trails would be accurate. It's not like Jeffco.


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

OP here, thanks for all of the input, comments. It's clear so far that there are issues (bias against ebikes) in the US. 
Even many fellow bikers are very opposed to ebikes on the trails as some comments here and throughout the forums show.
Solutions here are: break the law (which I won't do), ride gravel only where designated (few and far between locations), just ride in the street. 
The options for me are no mountain ebiking in Georgia. So as I want to ride I'll be voting against anyone I can find that has a hand against ebikes in the US and in my state. 
Going to Spain later this year and will put my money there to try off road ebiking. 
Doesn't make sense to me as a motorcycle weighs 200 lbs+ has a good deal of horsepower and works by a twist of a throttle (had many and love'em but to old to ride now). As noted here by a fellow mountain biker that they are the same as a Class 1 ebike which weighs around 50 lbs and must be peddled. This tells me that the bias is deep and probably permanent, much like any other prejudice thought. Its like if the government decided to outlaw ski lifts and only people that could walk or ski to the top are allowed to do so. 
Now looking for an organization that promotes ebike usage off road.
I'll still be enjoying my Trek Fuel in the local trails, just now instead buying a cool Fezzari Wire Peak and enjoying it in my home state I'll just have to plan more vacations to where it's legal and rent whats available. Its fun to watch the evolution overseas ( you tube is endless). Having only a few posts here and being new to biking after a very long lay off I am surprised to see such violent views against other bikers. I like bikes of all kinds, with motors and without, don't understand the bias. 
Thanks all again for the eye opening.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Traditional50s said:


> OP here, thanks for all of the input, comments. It's clear so far that there are issues (bias against ebikes) in the US.
> Even many fellow bikers are very opposed to ebikes on the trails as some comments here and throughout the forums show.
> Solutions here are: break the law (which I won't do), ride gravel only where designated (few and far between locations), just ride in the street.
> The options for me are no mountain ebiking in Georgia. So as I want to ride I'll be voting against anyone I can find that has a hand against ebikes in the US and in my state.
> ...


You are in a good spot, promoting and educating e bike by example.

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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

A lot of mountain bikers are always going to be hostile, for better or worse, and a lot of places (for a wide variety of reasons) will always ban anything that uses a motor for propulsion. 

So it's a tough road, but your best bet really is to get involved in local level mountain bike clubs/advocacy. Make friends and connections, show up consistently, and put in the work to help out, and you might be able to build up enough allies to affect change on your local trails.

I don't think voting at the national or state level is probably useful. You might be able to get some traction working at local level politics, though. The issue is that most of the constituency that uses trails (ie, bird watchers, hikers, runners, people with kids and dogs) are already generally hostile to bikes on trails *without* motors. 

Anyway, sorry I don't have a better answer for you. If there is a specific policy (a ban) on motorized bikes on your local trails it will probably be VERY hard to get that changed. If there's not really a specific policy yet, different story.

-Walt


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Thanks much for the encouraging posts, I will be involved and understand the winds of change are difficult to maneuver....a rally a the capital (close by) with many fellow ebikers demanding places to ride might grab some attention....Better get my commuter ready  
Thanks again for the posts.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

"You don't agree with me, you are biased! That the only thing that makes sense because I KNOW I'm correct and there is no other option!"

Words of wisdom by Socrates in 401BC.


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

This topic is a real hornets nest!!! I am in the same boat. I want to purchase an ebike and ride trails, but I read all the angry posts all over the Internet and begin to wonder when or if this access issue will ever get resolved in my life time. Anyway, I think the group you want to contact is, “People for Bikes”.
They are lobbying for ebike access.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

vikb said:


> ...and faster. Which is due to the motor. Not shockingly much of the same issues that impact that occur when people use motorcycles. So when I have to assess the issue I'll lump e-bike in with motorcycles before I'll lump them in with mountain bikes. You may disagree, but my point is what you see as "obvious" does not hold for other people.


Maybe faster uphill, but do e-bikers really pedal much downhill ?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Traditional50s said:


> Thanks much for the encouraging posts, I will be involved and understand the winds of change are difficult to maneuver....a rally a the capital (close by) with many fellow ebikers demanding places to ride might grab some attention....Better get my commuter ready
> Thanks again for the posts.


Good luck. Maybe 10 ebikers will show up.

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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Phantomtracer said:


> This topic is a real hornets nest!!! I am in the same boat. I want to purchase an ebike and ride trails, but I read all the angry posts all over the Internet and begin to wonder when or if this access issue will ever get resolved in my life time. Anyway, I think the group you want to contact is, "People for Bikes".
> They are lobbying for ebike access.


Thanks for the post, my feelings exactly. Thank you for the People for Bikes reference. Googled and I will be heading to a meeting, several local to me. I am already involved in some lobbing efforts, happy to work for access for all.


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Silentfoe said:


> Good luck. Maybe 10 ebikers will show up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


That comment was tongue in cheek, with the restrictions in the area I doubt there are many ebikers around. It's a project for fun. I'd like to ride a 35 mile mountain trail that I did years ago on a Wire Peak. It's the challenges in life that make it fun and interesting. Nothing will help without getting involved and putting forth an effort. I'm just getting back into it and will be working toward a goal. Should be fun and challenging.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Didn't P4B lose their big sponsor $ and basically fold up shop/lay off most of their people?

I could be misremembering but that's what I thought I read in BRAIN.

-Walt


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

scottxpc said:


> It's a mountain bike ride it when is the last time you seen anyone on mountain bike trails ticketing someone ? What ever gets you our there to enjoy the outdoors do it !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


....aaaaand this is the attitude that puts most non-e bikers, and land stewards/trail advocates on edge. In many places, non e bikers, hikers, and horse riders have had negative experiences with uninformed, novice, or selfish people on e bikes going too fast and riding oblivious to others...

you will never convince the masses - hikers and horsey people - that e bikes are anything other than a nuisance....that is why MTBr's are up in arms about it...we have been trying to "make nice" with this majority of trail users for the past 30 years, and are still usually the pariah on the trails in many places...e bikes are just adding another iron in that fire that is sometimes not wanted.

as many have said, change will happen quickest at the grassroots level, and being a good ambassador...not a belligerent "f-you , I will ride when/where/how I want" kind of rider....will be the best way in...

I personally have nothing against e bikes - I would not ride one, but I have no problem with others doing it as long as they follow the rules, just like i have to on my bike.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

sXeXBMXer said:


> ....aaaaand this is the attitude that puts most non-e bikers, and land stewards/trail advocates on edge. In many places, non e bikers, hikers, and horse riders have had negative experiences with uninformed, novice, or selfish people on e bikes going too fast and riding oblivious to others...
> 
> you will never convince the masses - hikers and horsey people - that e bikes are anything other than a nuisance....that is why MTBr's are up in arms about it...we have been trying to "make nice" with this majority of trail users for the past 30 years, and are still usually the pariah on the trails in many places...e bikes are just adding another iron in that fire that is sometimes not wanted.
> 
> ...


I do appreciate your viewpoint. I understand that MTBr's have struggled greatly to gain acceptance to the trail systems they share with hikers, etc. There are probably many negative encounters involving riders and non-riders. Are there really more negative encounters involving eMTBr's vs riders in general ? 
I do understand the "adding another iron to the fire" issue .... that makes sense.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mintakax said:


> I do appreciate your viewpoint. I understand that MTBr's have struggled greatly to gain acceptance to the trail systems they share with hikers, etc. There are probably many negative encounters involving riders and non-riders. Are there really more negative encounters involving eMTBr's vs riders in general ?
> I do understand the "adding another iron to the fire" issue .... that makes sense.


Oh yeah...I am not saying that regular MTBr's are all angels...we have a fair share of people who also ride too fast, ride on trails they are not allowed to, do damage to trails etc; there are many, many douchebag non-e riders...

the main issue is the motor...and how it redefines the bike....and how people who want to do things their way, regardless of what is "right", are trying to "excuse" themselves form the law, and the perception of the non motorized trail using majority, which is hikers and horseys

Biggest gripe:
No matter what class it is, or how it is engaged, it is a motor. And if the sign says No Motorized Vehicles, it means NO VEHICLES THAT ARE MOTOR POWERED. It is not a suggestion....just like a stop sign, or do not enter sign is not a suggestion. The group of people who feel like they are above the law ignore this, or try to then make excuses or rationalizations as to why this does not apply to them....<- that pisses off non e bikers b/c it involves many trails that non e bikers worked hard to gain access to.

Gripe #2

trail damage: again, not an e bike specific gripe, but as the selfish e bikers start modifying their motors to go faster and have more torque than human legs can have, I can definitely see this being an issue...and add the factor of the ignorance or naiveté that some e bikers will bring to the trail systems, I think this is a valid concern. And non e bikers, again, are not innocent of trail damage...a lot of people will ride trails incorrectly, or when they are too wet, or will sanitize trails to make them easier, but wheels moving faster with more weight will dig deeper

I think e bike riders are going to need to be patient, just like we were, and work and wait for the mindset to shift. Unfortunately, a lot of the mind set I see from some of the e bike crowd resides in the "I want it, and I want it now, and easy" mindset. The "I deserve to do whatever I want to do" mind set. Again, not ALL, e bikers, but enough to make non e bikers worry about being patient.

It will be interesting to see if the places where there is less hiker and horsey use - like where I live - allows change to happen quicker. Our MTB specific trail systems do not have the No Motors Allowed markers up, but some of the multi use park systems do. I honestly have never encountered an e biker on the system I ride, but I know they use them due to talk in the LBS and posts on our local forums and chats.

As many have mentioned in the multitude of threads covering this topic, the biggest thign that will "save the day" is patience and respect...and there seems to be very little of either left in todays world...I think that is the bigger issue


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

Hi Walt,
People for bikes is going strong. I searched the BRAIN site and couldn’t find any story about them folding up. I went back a year so maybe it was awhile back. Looks like they have been making progress in reclassifying class 1 bikes.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Bias.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Phantomtracer said:


> Hi Walt,
> People for bikes is going strong. I searched the BRAIN site and couldn't find any story about them folding up. I went back a year so maybe it was awhile back. Looks like they have been making progress in reclassifying class 1 bikes.


Reclassifying? Are they finally admitting their screwup and trying to get the EU standard adopted? That would be huge if so.

-Walt


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Traditional50s said:


> Having just got back into biking after many years. I really like what is happening all over the world in ebike tech and development. All researched and ready to purchase I thought I'd look for the nearest trails to ride.
> I live in North Georgia and there are many great trails near me but almost all ban ebikes, the federal government it turns out classifies ebikes as motorcycles so all local government seems to follow suit. So no riding on mountain bike trails.
> Although not clear on all the details ( I will research it thoroughly), it seems that the USA is firmly against ebikes off road.
> 
> ...


I would go with this if I were you. 
And don't go trying to make out that you are Rosa Parks or something. That gets you nowheres fast.

And I won't ignore the result of going "Rugged independent individualist"
And "do what I want" and expect different results, because I won't get them. 
We gotta be adults out there on those trails. Besides, pedaling them will get you fit and strong. What's so bad about that?


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> Reclassifying? Are they finally admitting their screwup and trying to get the EU standard adopted? That would be huge if so.
> 
> -Walt


Actually I think they are more interested in a smoke and mirror approach according to this quote from Larry Pizzi Accells Marketing Man here in the US:

Pizzi's last point - and it's a big one - is to lobby for a change in the classification of motorized to *self-propelled*. It's an "if you can't join them, reinvent yourself" approach that would pull e-MTBs away from the legal definition that's currently keeping extra watts off managed land.

Taken from this: https://gearpatrol.com/2019/02/21/are-electric-mountain-bikes-legal/

PFB is nothing more than the lobbying arm of the BPSA and more interested in getting sales flowing than actual access issues. They did lose a large part of their budget however due to Interbike's demise as that entity provided them with a lot of $$.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

sXeXBMXer said:


> ....aaaaand this is the attitude that puts most non-e bikers, and land stewards/trail advocates on edge. In many places, non e bikers, hikers, and horse riders have had negative experiences with uninformed, novice, or selfish people on e bikes going too fast and riding oblivious to others...
> 
> you will never convince the masses - hikers and horsey people - that e bikes are anything other than a nuisance....that is why MTBr's are up in arms about it...we have been trying to "make nice" with this majority of trail users for the past 30 years, and are still usually the pariah on the trails in many places...e bikes are just adding another iron in that fire that is sometimes not wanted.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen or ridden with an ebike on the trails ? I have and like I said they are no different they go slightly faster uphill not much definitely not 20mph like people seem to think and no faster downhill than any other bike . The point is they allow more people the freedom to experience trsils they could not normally do which gets more people out doors on BIKES and advocating for BIKES nm isnt that what we've always wanted !!

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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Pizzi’s last point — and it’s a big one — is to lobby for a change in the classification of motorized to self-propelled. It’s an “if you can’t join them, reinvent yourself” approach that would pull e-MTBs away from the legal definition that’s currently keeping extra watts off managed land.

This is a good course, probably the quickest path to legalized riding.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

scottxpc said:


> Have you ever seen or ridden with an ebike on the trails ? I have and like I said they are no different they go slightly faster uphill not much definitely not 20mph like people seem to think and no faster downhill than any other bike . The point is they allow more people the freedom to experience trsils they could not normally do which gets more people out doors on BIKES and advocating for BIKES nm isnt that what we've always wanted !!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


This is a very reasonable statement. My emtb is the only pedal bike I've ridden in several years and were it not for the motor, I would not be riding. I'm 68 with a collection of injuries from past activities and I am thrilled to be able to get out and ride ! I'm extra courteous and I don't pass non e-bikers on the flats. My only problem is the lack of true mtb trails that are e-legal. 
Much of the anti e-bike sentiment here and elsewhere seems to stem from a black and white interpretation of the word "motor". I could be wrong here, but when trails were opened and "no motorized vehicle" signs put up, were they really thinking of class 1 pedal assist e-bikes ? I've had many motorcycles (all sport bikes) in my life and when I read someone say that an e-bike is closer to a motor cycle than it is to a non e-bike I know I'm reading complete BS.


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

OP here again, after thinking about this more, there are several possible pathways that will make ebikes on the trail inevitable.

1) The technology is rapidly developing to the point of not being able to tell an ebike from a non ebike. Already here for road bikes, couple of mountain models are out now. People will buy and ride them. 
2) Money drives the world, these bikes are expensive, people want them. Massive sales in Europe is driving acceptance. More manufacturers are getting into production. Rapidly growing sections of GDP do not escape political eyes (read as tax revenue).
3) Again Money drives the world, This will be (or already is) a significant shift in dollars to the bike industry... avg sale of ebikes vs non ebikes, this will make politicians take notice. They can cost more than motorcycles or used cars. People with the expendable incomes have influence, lobbying for places to ride to grow the industry will be a natural action.
4) Again money, a possible path is that the bikes will be licensed (for a fee, costly), classed (as they are now) color coded permit stickers for easy identification for enforcement officials. Class 1 allowed here, class 2, here, class 3 etc... 
5) Changing the description to "self propelled" and have the "class 1" bikes allowed on trails bypasses a lot of the above. Maybe best for cyclists.

Bottom line after looking at this a little is that ebikes are inevitable. Money will be the reason, bike dealers revenue will grow dramatically, as will lobbying dollars. This is just an opinion, I will continue to ride and enjoy my bikes, on road and off. Will be interesting to see the market will work this all out. I'm guessing it will be like the battle between horses and horseless carriages. 
Thanks to all who have commented, great information and kudos to such a engaging forum.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

So money and loopholes make electric bikes inevitable, isn't that nice.


Lots of people value non-motorized spaces, are your interests more important than theirs?


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

He just stated fact is all you think these bike manufacturers, motor manufacturers and everyone else pouring all this time and money into R&D for ebikes is going to watch it all go down the tubes because you cant ride them anywhere so they cant sell them ? Not hardly so we might as well accept it cause it's happening just like many other things in life things change


J.B. Weld said:


> So money and loopholes make electric bikes inevitable, isn't that nice.
> 
> Lots of people value non-motorized spaces, are your interests more important than theirs?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

mintakax said:


> This is a very reasonable statement. My emtb is the only pedal bike I've ridden in several years and were it not for the motor, I would not be riding. I'm 68 with a collection of injuries from past activities and I am thrilled to be able to get out and ride ! I'm extra courteous and I don't pass non e-bikers on the flats. My only problem is the lack of true mtb trails that are e-legal.
> Much of the anti e-bike sentiment here and elsewhere seems to stem from a black and white interpretation of the word "motor". I could be wrong here, but when trails were opened and "no motorized vehicle" signs put up, were they really thinking of class 1 pedal assist e-bikes ? I've had many motorcycles (all sport bikes) in my life and when I read someone say that an e-bike is closer to a motor cycle than it is to a non e-bike I know I'm reading complete BS.


 Well said sir! My sentiments and experience exactly.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

scottxpc said:


> He just stated fact is all you think these bike manufacturers, motor manufacturers and everyone else pouring all this time and money into R&D for ebikes is going to watch it all go down the tubes because you cant ride them anywhere so they cant sell them ? Not hardly so we might as well accept it cause it's happening just like many other things in life things change
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


The vast majority of ebike manufacturers are not that worried about whether ebikes can be used on non-motorized singletrack. Why, because the vast manority of ebikes sold are meant for riding around town. They are far more concerned about vehicle codes that might limit how they can be used on the road.

Ebikes designed for non-motorized single track is an extremely small niche that will have no effect on whether ebikes "go down the tubes" or become mainstream here in the states.

Also, as ebikes get more powerful and quicker every year, people continue to deristrict their ebikes, more ebikes that well exceed the 750w limits become available and more people dyi their own ebike with well more than 750w, those are all things that have land managers banning ebikes more and more.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Traditional50s said:


> OP here again, after thinking about this more, there are several possible pathways that will make ebikes on the trail inevitable.
> 
> 1) The technology is rapidly developing to the point of not being able to tell an ebike from a non ebike. Already here for road bikes, couple of mountain models are out now. People will buy and ride them.
> 2) Money drives the world, these bikes are expensive, people want them. Massive sales in Europe is driving acceptance. More manufacturers are getting into production. Rapidly growing sections of GDP do not escape political eyes (read as tax revenue).
> ...


Well said! A better move, since we are all mountain bikers would be to unite and act as a much bigger influential group.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

E-bikes don't belong on non-motorized trails. They have motors. It ain't complicated.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

scottxpc said:


> Have you ever seen or ridden with a moped on the trails ? I have and like I said they are no different they go slightly faster uphill not much definitely not 20mph like people seem to think and no faster downhill than a bike . The point is they allow more people the freedom to experience trsils they could not normally do which gets more people out doors


See how that works?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Traditional50s said:


> OP here again, after thinking about this more, there are several possible pathways that will make ebikes on the trail inevitable.
> 
> 1) The technology is rapidly developing to the point of not being able to tell an ebike from a non ebike. Already here for road bikes, couple of mountain models are out now. People will buy and ride them.


Yep, people will buy and ride them. Some legally, some not. Some dealers won't care, and tell people to ride where ever they'd like.

"I make it very clear to my customers that riding Emtbs in our local parks is illegal.
It's killed more than a few sales, but it my responsibility to inform them of the legal ramifications.

I also tell them how not to get caught and where the best places to avoid running into rump rangers"

https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/emtb-outlawed.3970/

The dealers in my neck of the woods have essentially stopped selling emtbs since there's few miles of legal singletrack nearby, but they're all in on commuter type ebikes.



Traditional50s said:


> 2) Money drives the world, these bikes are expensive, people want them. Massive sales in Europe is driving acceptance. More manufacturers are getting into production. Rapidly growing sections of GDP do not escape political eyes (read as tax revenue).


I've been involved with mtb advocacy for almost 15 years now, bike sales and the money involved has little to nothing to do with it on the local level. All of my local land managers could care less how bikes or ebikes are selling. If you are in a destination resort, sure, the powers that be that sit above the land managers could push their agendas downward. To be clear though, emtbs are a very small segment of an already small segment (mtbs) of the bike industry. Which isn't a big player in most places.



Traditional50s said:


> 3) Again Money drives the world, This will be (or already is) a significant shift in dollars to the bike industry... avg sale of ebikes vs non ebikes, this will make politicians take notice. They can cost more than motorcycles or used cars. People with the expendable incomes have influence, lobbying for places to ride to grow the industry will be a natural action.


See above. Have at it, go lobby at your local level. Based on my experience, 99.9% of mtb riders will prefer to ride their bikes than get involved with advocating on a meaningful level. By meaningful, I mean to invest the time and energy to develop relationships with the people that make the decisions, and have the resources to carry through. Showing up at public meetings is fine, it makes people feel good, but the real influencing is carried out behind closed doors before those public meetings by invited stakeholders. You have to become one of those.



Traditional50s said:


> 4) Again money, a possible path is that the bikes will be licensed (for a fee, costly), classed (as they are now) color coded permit stickers for easy identification for enforcement officials. Class 1 allowed here, class 2, here, class 3 etc...


If you do the math, pay to play for emtbs would have to have a lot of riders and generate big $$$ to actually accomplish anything. We have no enforcement locally, which is the same situation in most places. Just in our city parks, we have 40,000 acres and 250 miles of trails scattered around the region. Seven overworked full time rangers, each one in charge of multiple properties. How many emtb riders would it take at say $40 a head to pay for one more ranger and a truck to drive around checking tags for a year? Then you'll get into "Why do I have to pay for my emtb, when mtb riders don't have to pay on the same trails?" and "Merica, my freedoms".

We're looking at pay to play here to raise money for trail maintenance, which I support. Bigger pool of users though.



Traditional50s said:


> 5) Changing the description to "self propelled" and have the "class 1" bikes allowed on trails bypasses a lot of the above. Maybe best for cyclists.


I can't wait for someone to stand up in a public meeting and try to convince a land manager that "It's not motorized, it's "self propelled"!" The lawyers who write the codes will just roll their eyes.

Almost as amusing as "It's not motorized because it has a very small motor."

Add in that every Emoto and ICE moto rider would be now be whining that their bikes are self propelled too.

Wait, I thought Class 1 ebikes weren't self propelled? Isn't that what makes them magic?


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

I am really trying to understand and be objective, but I can't get past what I perceive as a real anti e-bike bias that comes from quite a few posters on this sub-forum.
Do class 1 e-bikes have a motor ? Yes, yes, yes ! Does this motor really cause harm to mtb trails or mtb riders ? Please don't tell me that its just about the word "motor". Please tell me what is the real problem. 

If you say e-bikes complicate the already tenuous relationship between riders and non riders, then OK.... that I can understand and appreciate.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mintakax said:


> I am really trying to understand and be objective, but I can't get past what I perceive as a real anti e-bike bias that comes from quite a few posters on this sub-forum.
> Do class 1 e-bikes have a motor ? Yes, yes, yes ! Does this motor really cause harm to mtb trails or mtb riders ? Please don't tell me that its just about the word "motor". Please tell me what is the real problem.
> 
> If you say e-bikes complicate the already tenuous relationship between riders and non riders, then OK.... that I can understand and appreciate.


Pro tip: If you're too lazy to use the search function maybe you should find someone who can do that work for you. Your question has been answered ad naseum.

There isn't one "real problem" but there are a myriad of "problems" depending on Federal, State, and/or local regulations.

Those regulations were established for a wide variety of reasons.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

og-mtb said:


> Pro tip: If you're too lazy to use the search function maybe you should find someone who can do that work for you. Your question has been answered ad naseum.
> 
> There isn't one "real problem" but there are a myriad of "problems" depending on Federal, State, and/or local regulations.
> 
> Those regulations were established for a wide variety of reasons.


OK, thanks for the tip.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

NO!!!! now this biased crap is over here. E-bikers get a shovel and do some trail work, post some pictures and something actually worth reading. We understand, you think you should be able to ride everywhere and only a racist would disagree with you.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

scottxpc said:


> Have you ever seen or ridden with an ebike on the trails ? I have and like I said they are no different they go slightly faster uphill not much definitely not 20mph like people seem to think and no faster downhill than any other bike . The point is they allow more people the freedom to experience trsils they could not normally do which gets more people out doors on BIKES and advocating for BIKES nm isnt that what we've always wanted !!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


In person, I have seen 1 or 2 e bikes on the trails. Ridden by older guys who were probably NOT going to modify the motors to go faster. I have seen _more_ examples on video, in writing and in conversation of people who modified the class 1 motor to go faster.

THAT is the issue... again, the people who ignore the rules, both spirit and letter of, the rules are going to cause the main problems



scottxpc said:


> He just stated fact is all you think these bike manufacturers, motor manufacturers and everyone else pouring all this time and money into R&D for ebikes is going to watch it all go down the tubes because you cant ride them anywhere so they cant sell them ? Not hardly so we might as well accept it cause it's happening just like many other things in life things change
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


didn't Ford do this same thing with the Pinto, or Chevy with the Corvair...just because they go through the process doesn''t mean that it will automatically work, or be worth the money, or be usable



mintakax said:


> This is a very reasonable statement. My emtb is the only pedal bike I've ridden in several years and were it not for the motor, I would not be riding. I'm 68 with a collection of injuries from past activities and I am thrilled to be able to get out and ride ! I'm extra courteous and I don't pass non e-bikers on the flats. My only problem is the lack of true mtb trails that are e-legal.
> 
> Much of the anti e-bike sentiment here and elsewhere seems to stem *from a black and white interpretation of the word "motor"*. I could be wrong here, but when trails were opened and "no motorized vehicle" signs put up, were they really thinking of class 1 pedal assist e-bikes ? I've had many motorcycles (all sport bikes) in my life and when I read someone say that an e-bike is closer to a motor cycle than it is to a non e-bike I know I'm reading complete BS.


there is the problem, again. The idea that a law has been made that is VERY black and white...or VERY CLEAR, and people want to ignore it, or twist it to fit their individual agenda....WHICH MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD, OR CORRECT ONE.... some times we don't get to do everything that we want to in life....that is ok. If the stop sign tells me to stop, than I AM GOIGN TO STOP. There is no black and white here...I am not going to think "Well I shouldn't have to stop because of X, Y, and Z"

and yes, when those trails were made, they were not thinking about anything other than: "We don't want ANYTHING that is not propelled solely by organic carbon life form sweat to be on this trail...." so they used the word motor, which, once again, seems pretty clear to me...



J.B. Weld said:


> So money and loopholes make electric bikes inevitable, isn't that nice.
> 
> Lots of people value non-motorized spaces, are your interests more important than theirs?


BAM!!!!



tahoebeau said:


> The vast majority of ebike manufacturers are not that worried about whether ebikes can be used on non-motorized singletrack. *Why, because the vast manority of ebikes sold are meant for riding around town*. They are far more concerned about vehicle codes that might limit how they can be used on the road.
> 
> Ebikes designed for non-motorized single track is an* extremely small niche that will have no effect on whether ebikes "go down the tubes" or become mainstream here in the states. *
> 
> *Also, as ebikes get more powerful and quicker every year, people continue to deristrict their ebikes, more ebikes that well exceed the 750w limits become available and more people dyi their own ebike with well more than 750w, those are all things that have land managers banning ebikes more and more.*


BAM, BAM, and BAM!!!



SteveF said:


> E-bikes don't belong on non-motorized trails. They have motors. It ain't complicated.


...but it is if you want to make it that way....and we are now living in a world where "Complication" also leads to big profit for some, so now, it is a thing...

Excuse me while I "wax poetic":
funny that I have been sort of "hovering" in all of the threads, and discussion about e bikes, and what I am noticing is this level of entitlement that people have, that I think is a result of a lack of respect for others. And it is not just manifesting in the e bikers vs. non e bikers world, but in our society in general...this whole notion that the individual is more important than the whole, that rules don't really matter if "I" don't want them to...this is leading to pretty scary things in the future I think. We need to be careful as we progress forward...or possibly regress.....

/poetic wax....


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

scottxpc said:


> He just stated fact is all you think these bike manufacturers, motor manufacturers and everyone else pouring all this time and money into R&D for ebikes is going to watch it all go down the tubes because you cant ride them anywhere so they cant sell them ? Not hardly so we might as well accept it cause it's happening just like many other things in life things change


If you thnk this is how things work, then how how do explain the fact that motos, ATVs and UTVs don't have a lot more access than they do? No shortage of money being thrown around in the motorsports industry, a whole helluva lot more than on e-bikes.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> So money and loopholes make electric bikes inevitable, isn't that nice.
> 
> Lots of people value non-motorized spaces, are your interests more important than theirs?


Actually, fun and an aging biking demographic make e-bikes inevitable. And you can criticize the brand-name bike industry for 1000 other things than making e-bikes.

I understand your non-motorized space argument. It makes sense. However, unless some dumbass is going full-bore with an e-bike at 30 mph down a trail, chances are you'd never even notice that the bike is motorized. Most of the mid-drives don't make nearly as much noise as a 1x11 drivetrain that's coasting. From my info., Strava's, and other sources online I've seen is that on pavement, on fire/gravel roads, and on trails, they are roughly 50% faster. As in the rider chooses to go 50% faster and not 200-300% faster. Again this is not counting the jerks that go full throttle, and they should be banned if they are causing safety issues. So if someone averages 8 mph on a trail with a normal bike, now they average 12 mph. You are not even going to notice that unless they pass you and you see the battery. And that's going to be a psychological issue, not a real one.

And if/when that happens, I still have faith in you, that you are not going to have a psychotic breakdown if you see an e-bike on your trail. You will continue to enjoy riding your favorite areas. I'm confident of that. You are not the type to quit things at the first sign of adversity. So don't worry.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> Well said! A better move, since we are all mountain bikers would be to unite and act as a much bigger influential group.


This is what I've been trying to say for a while; when one group of mountain bikers condemn another group, and don't even consider them fellow mountain bikers, it looks really, really bad from a public & Govt. perspective. It looks like we are fragmented and can't get our act together. It looks like a sectarian war that's just plain silly from the perspective of people outside the MTB community. If the mountain bikers that had influence over local/state policy embraced e-bikes, but recommended a ban on anyone that abused the rules, rode too fast, endangered others, etc., no matter what kind of bike they were on, the MTB community would look like they have their act together and are doing the right thing. Condemning one form of bike and pretending it's not a bike looks like some teenage Facebook argument from the outside. I guess it's hard for someone to see that if they put so much time and effort into the sport. Even if the condemners were 100% correct about everything, which they are not, it still looks bad, it looks like there is fighting going on when there should be riding going on. Outsiders, as in voters, rangers, county recreational area managers, etc., first and foremost want whoever is on public land to be respectful, whether they are on foot, horseback, or a bike. This e-bike fight makes us look disrespectful. And if we cannot be respectful to each other, how can the public trust us to be respectful to others on public land. Condemning e-bikes may end up endangering all bike access; it may end up doing exactly what it was trying to prevent. When two brothers fight, they often both end up getting punished. But they can't see through their own side of the argument to even realize this. Better to be punished than to compromise. Testosterone strong here.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I was at the grocery store today and over heard people in front of and behind me commenting on the discord in the MTB community....its a buzz all around. 

They all said it just looks really bad and don't understand why anyone sees something with a motor that needs to be plugged in as anything but a regular MTB! 

Next at the bank a teller starts asking me if I've heard about the discrimination EMTB riders have to endure. She was donating half of her salary to "MTBers for dropping the E from EMTB!" tm


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

So many people obviously have not even the slightest idea of how trail access works.

Equating mountain bikes with motors in any way, shape or form is bad for mountain bike access in general. Period, end of story. 

I have absolutely nothing against people riding e-bikes or sharing the trails with them. But they are NOT mountain bikes. Cuz motor. Land managers will never ignore the motor. Mountain bike advocates don't want to be saddled with the motor stigma, because they know how much ammo it gives to those that don't want any wheels on trails at all. So have all the fun you want and do all the advocacy work you can stomach wrt e-bikes. Just don't try to pretend they're the same thing as mountain bikes; they're not. Cuz motor.


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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

sXeXBMXer said:


> ....
> 
> there is the problem, again. The idea that a law has been made that is VERY black and white...or VERY CLEAR, and people want to ignore it, or twist it to fit their individual agenda....WHICH MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD, OR CORRECT ONE.... some times we don't get to do everything that we want to in life....that is ok. If the stop sign tells me to stop, than I AM GOIGN TO STOP. There is no black and white here...I am not going to think "Well I shouldn't have to stop because of X, Y, and Z"
> 
> ...


It really is OK and reasonable and healthy to question laws and rules, especially as things change..... as they always do. In addressing your comments to my posts .....Are my opinions motivated or associated with a lack of respect for others ? I can assure you they are not. As for a sense of entitlement ..... I am probably guilty of that.

Anyways out of respect for others I will refrain from any further comments. I understand that many of you that oppose e-bikes on the non-motorized trails have much more blood and sweat invested than I do.... and that I do respect.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> Actually, fun and an aging biking demographic make e-bikes inevitable. And you can criticize the brand-name bike industry for 1000 other things than making e-bikes.
> 
> I understand your non-motorized space argument. It makes sense. However, unless some dumbass is going full-bore with an e-bike at 30 mph down a trail, chances are you'd never even notice that the bike is motorized. Most of the mid-drives don't make nearly as much noise as a 1x11 drivetrain that's coasting. From my info., Strava's, and other sources online I've seen is that on pavement, on fire/gravel roads, and on trails, they are roughly 50% faster. As in the rider chooses to go 50% faster and not 200-300% faster. Again this is not counting the jerks that go full throttle, and they should be banned if they are causing safety issues. So if someone averages 8 mph on a trail with a normal bike, now they average 12 mph. You are not even going to notice that unless they pass you and you see the battery. And that's going to be a psychological issue, not a real one.
> 
> And if/when that happens, I still have faith in you, that you are not going to have a psychotic breakdown if you see an e-bike on your trail. You will continue to enjoy riding your favorite areas. I'm confident of that. You are not the type to quit things at the first sign of adversity. So don't worry.


So why don't emtbers lobby to have an emtb class created limited to realistic mountain bike speeds? 50% faster is huge. So many ebikers say it's still a bicycle and that they want a bicycle experience but yet they don't seem to like the idea of limiting their ebikes to be like bicycles. The tight, twisty, often heavily used trails around me (and the OP) make passing a bit of an issue so if a large number of ebikers are traveling 50% faster than the bicycles, it will be a problem.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

chazpat said:


> So why don't emtbers lobby to have an emtb class created limited to realistic mountain bike speeds? 50% faster is huge. So many ebikers say it's still a bicycle and that they want a bicycle experience but yet they don't seem to like the idea of limiting their ebikes to be like bicycles. The tight, twisty, often heavily used trails around me (and the OP) make passing a bit of an issue so if a large number of ebikers are traveling 50% faster than the bicycles, it will be a problem.


Again I ask have you ever ridden on trails with ebikes ? Obviously not or you would know how ridiculous the 50% faster claim is that is simply not true I have ridden with them when I was on my non ebike and I have also ridden them they simply are not 50 % faster. Faster is a matter of FITNESS weather on an Ebike or a regular mountain bike there always going to be people faster than you so now fit riders who are faster than you should not be able to ride the tight twisty trails with you ? Interesting .
I always come to the same conclusion with people who are so against ebikes there just being selfish. Why cant people just let everyone enjoy themselves without complaining pretty childish actually!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you thnk this is how things work, then how how do explain the fact that motos, ATVs and UTVs don't have a lot more access than they do? No shortage of money being thrown around in the motorsports industry, a whole helluva lot more than on e-bikes.


Last time I checked atv's motos and utvs had throttles , no pedals and required absolutely no effort to move

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Well this thread became entertaining in the last 24 hours since I was here. The emtb crowd is really blowing a lot of smoke up each others asses. Don't try to deny it, I'll just laugh more. None of you have any idea how trail access works, why emtbs or even ebikes in general are classified the way they are, how capitalism and technology work and so many other things.

Keep it up.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

scottxpc said:


> Again I ask have you ever ridden on trails with ebikes ? Obviously not or you would know how ridiculous the 50% faster claim is that is simply not true I have ridden with them when I was on my non ebike and I have also ridden them they simply are not 50 % faster. Faster is a matter of FITNESS weather on an Ebike or a regular mountain bike there always going to be people faster than you so now fit riders who are faster than you should not be able to ride the tight twisty trails with you ? Interesting .
> I always come to the same conclusion with people who are so against ebikes there just being selfish. Why cant people just let everyone enjoy themselves without complaining pretty childish actually!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


You do realize that figure came from one of your fellow ebikers, right? So if you want to tell Rich that he's never ridden an ebike, go right ahead. And tell me why ebikes need a cutoff at 20mph rather than a more realistic mountain bike speed? The European limit of 15.5 based on road bikes makes sense but 20mph for a emtb does not.

Odd how the members who have made me more pro-ebike are slaphappy, walt and harryman while the members who have made me more anti-ebike are many of the ebikers.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

chazpat said:


> You do realize that figure came from one of your fellow ebikers, right? So if you want to tell Rich that he's never ridden an ebike, go right ahead. And tell me why ebikes need a cutoff at 20mph rather than a more realistic mountain bike speed? The European limit of 15.5 based on road bikes makes sense but 20mph for a emtb does not.
> 
> Odd how the members who have made me more pro-ebike are slaphappy, walt and harryman while the members who have made me more anti-ebike are many of the ebikers.


Not my fellow ebikers I dont own an ebike I just dont have the hate towards them that you do lol 20 mph cut off to keep them from going to fast why would it need to be slower cause there is no possible way on non ebike could do 20mph right haha I can hit 20 on flat on my fat bike without problem no one not even an ebike is doing 20mph uphill get over yourselves and accept that they will be in our future weather we like it or not the technology has a steamroller of a start and there is no stopping it now !

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

scottxpc said:


> Obviously not or you would know how ridiculous the 50% faster claim is that is simply not true


This is inane.

The speed differential depends a great deal upon the grade, and which way you are headed on said grade. And how chunky it is. Or isn't.

50% faster is possible, based on my experience.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

According to accounts on this forum 50% faster seems conservative if anything. As mentioned terrain matters though, 100% faster seems closer to right if there's a lot of climbing.


Also I mean that they are 50% than the same person would be on a bicycle.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

For the love of God, please post in the e-bike forum! I am actually not against e-bikes, but please save our eyes the misery of the back and forth on every forum!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

roughster said:


> For the love of God, please post in the e-bike forum! I am actually not against e-bikes, but please save our eyes the misery of the back and forth on every forum!


Your ire is misplaced.

You need to whine to the mod that moved this thread out of the electric motor bicycle forum and stuck it here.


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

OP here, thread has gone off the rails a bit but after using Google turns out much progress has been made. Wyoming specifically. People for bikes has really made it simple and has made the case. A methodical, professional, researched approach working with land management folks have made much and will continue to make even more headway. Several states have set precedent, many more will follow. It will really disappoint the people that want ebikes banned. 
Thanks again to all who responded, haters, lovers and everyone else.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Done


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Hit the little exclamation mark and ask them to move it to the ebike forum


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

Yep! People for Bikes also made headway in PA.
They are working hard and getting quick results!!!!
Lots of angry people here. Motor or not, the ebike doesn’t cause any more trail damage than a regular bike and probably less than a horse. If we all united we would have a much louder voice.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Hit the little exclamation mark and ask them to move this to the ebike forum


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

scottxpc said:


> Again I ask have you ever ridden on trails with ebikes ? Obviously not or you would know how ridiculous the 50% faster claim is that is simply not true I have ridden with them when I was on my non ebike and I have also ridden them they simply are not 50 % faster. Faster is a matter of FITNESS weather on an Ebike or a regular mountain bike there always going to be people faster than you so now fit riders who are faster than you should not be able to ride the tight twisty trails with you ? Interesting .
> I always come to the same conclusion with people who are so against ebikes there just being selfish. *Why cant people just let everyone enjoy themselves without complaining* pretty childish actually!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


that mentality is TOTALY ROOTED in selfishness....commonly read/meant as "Why can't people let ME enjoy MYSELF without complaining."

childish? ....most of my 5-8th grade students use this train of though on me every day in class when they don't "get their way" for whatever reason...

most of the people I know are against e bikes because they saw an e biker belligerently, or ignorantly, break a rule somehow.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Honestly, I just don’t care. Please move this back to the e-bike forum.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

roughster said:


> Honestly, I just don't care. Please move this back to the e-bike forum.


Someone who honestly just doesn't care wouldn't have replied, nor whined once again.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> Someone who honestly just doesn't care wouldn't have replied, nor whined once again.


I think what he means is that he does not care about discussing issues related to ebikes on a forum dedicated to building trail. Some of us who use this forum for useful discussion find the ebike posts intrusive particularly because the ebike posts so often seem to fall back on name-calling and insults, whereas those discussions around trailbuilding seem less likely to suffer that fate.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

ki5ka said:


> I think what he means is that he does not care about discussing issues related to ebikes on a forum dedicated to building trail. Some of us who use this forum for useful discussion find the ebike posts intrusive particularly because the ebike posts so often seem to fall back on name-calling and insults, whereas those discussions around trailbuilding seem less likely to suffer that fate.


Who is forcing you brainiacs to open, let alone read, and then respond to, threads that you find "intrusive"?

Is someone holding a McLeod to your heads or something?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Traditional50s said:


> Having just got back into biking after many years. I really like what is happening all over the world in ebike tech and development. All researched and ready to purchase I thought I'd look for the nearest trails to ride.
> I live in North Georgia and there are many great trails near me but almost all ban ebikes, the federal government it turns out classifies ebikes as motorcycles so all local government seems to follow suit. So no riding on mountain bike trails.
> Although not clear on all the details ( I will research it thoroughly), it seems that the USA is firmly against ebikes off road.
> 
> ...


From this article in SingleTracks about the BLM Shoshone District:

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/t...-test-new-travel-management-plan-e-bike-demo/

"Currently, the area is managed using three trail designations. The first is for non-mechanized travel and allows only hiking and horseback riding. The second designation adds mountain bikers, but remains non-motorized, and the third adds motorized use for vehicles like dirt bikes and ATVs.

The proposed travel management plan would change the middle designation from non-motorized use to motorized use, but limited to Class 1 e-bikes and below. In other words, the current classification in the Shoshone area that allows hikers, horseback riders, and mountain bikers on a non-motorized trail would also allow Class 1 e-bikes."

This proposal was supposed to go through a NEPA process and be announced by now, so I don't know what actually happened with it.

This trail reclassification approach seems like a promising way to gain more eBike access; restoring motorized access in appropriate areas where the motor is a component of a low-powered eBike. Mountain Bikers will probably feel some rage over that motorized / mechanized access classification though. The changes to allow eBike access on BLM and Forest Service land would have to come gradually and selectively, because the review process is likely expensive and time consuming.

In Arizona, I think that a good start would be the Carr Lake trail system, and maybe the Indian Springs trail in the high country. Not very heavily used by either hikers or mountain bikers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

scottxpc said:


> Last time I checked atv's motos and utvs had throttles , no pedals and required absolutely no effort to move
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


So what? Has nothing even remotely do with what you said, nor my response. 



scottxpc said:


> He just stated fact is all you think these bike manufacturers, motor manufacturers and everyone else pouring all this time and money into R&D for ebikes is going to watch it all go down the tubes because you cant ride them anywhere so they cant sell them ? Not hardly so we might as well accept it cause it's happening just like many other things in life things change


Let me help you out:

You said that simply because people and companies spent money on e-bikes, vastly expanded access is inevitable. I asked how come that hasn't worked for the moto world. 2017 number market numbers are almost $20,000,000,000, and growing.

That's "billion". With a "b". Now compare that with the pittance that is off road e-bike sales and ask yourself if a 20 billion dollar industry struggles with access, is it remotely realistic to think that the e-bike industry is ever actually going to wield the economic clout to force their way in somehow? Even if LMs gave a damn about such things (which they typically don't), it's still way, way out there in fantasy land.

Where I live, there is extremely limited public motorized trail access. For decades, it seems the main angle of those who would like to see it expanded has been 'But I spent a lot of money! Gimme trails!". Result: ever decreasing access. This tact simply isn't realistic, sorry to say.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> According to accounts on this forum 50% faster seems conservative if anything. As mentioned terrain matters though, 100% faster seems closer to right if there's a lot of climbing.
> 
> Also I mean that they are 50% than the same person would be on a bicycle.


It depends on the grade. At 5 percent grade I'll usually be running 100 percent assist which means that instead of climbing 4mph I'll be climbing at 8 mph but with higher assist and in a hurry climbing speed could easily be tripled to 12 mph (I don't do this because I'm a tourist rider).

Once the trail gets steeper, above 10 percent grade, the speed is power-limited so not so fast; the difference the eBike makes on steeper trails is that average speed, not moving speed, increases because there's no need to rest.

Almost every ride I get stopped by older riders who ask me questions about the bike; if I let them ride mine they tear down the trail like a bat out of hell, but I think that once the novelty wears off if they actually bought an eBike their speeds would be more normal.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> Almost every ride I get stopped by older riders who ask me questions about the bike; if I let them ride mine they tear down the trail like a bat out of hell, but I think that once the novelty wears off if they actually bought an eBike their speeds would be more normal.


That seems weird to me, why would they start going slower? Not everyone is wired to be a "tourist" rider.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Traditional50s said:


> Seems quite obvious that anyone riding a pedal assist ebike is riding a bike, main difference is the ability to climb and ride longer.


And THIS is where the train left the tracks.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

hikerdave said:


> From this article in SingleTracks about the BLM Shoshone District:
> 
> https://www.singletracks.com/blog/t...-test-new-travel-management-plan-e-bike-demo/
> 
> ...


That's one way to do it, and will work in areas that don't have easement issues with a motorized designation. IME, this would lead to the moto community blowing a gasket, since it's now motorized and they can't ride there. My parks dept had to do something similar to allow Class 1/2 ebikes on MUT bike paths, they had to rewrite their code. They only are willing to do that every 10 years or so, which is typical of dealing with a governmental agency, their wheels grind slowly.

In general in attempting to gain access to a new area, or build new trail, it's often far more complicated behind the scenes than it appears on the surface.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Harryman said:


> T My parks dept had to do something similar to allow Class 1/2 ebikes on MUT bike paths, they had to rewrite their code. They only are willing to do that every 10 years or so, which is typical of dealing with a governmental agency, their wheels grind slowly.


Same:

https://www.ebparks.org/civica/press/display.asp?layout=11&Entry=423

(still haven't published a new ebike policy)



Harryman said:


> In general in attempting to gain access to a new area, or build new trail, it's often far more complicated behind the scenes than it appears on the surface.


This is lost on so many "advocates" in these threads.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> That seems weird to me, why would they start going slower? Not everyone is wired to be a "tourist" rider.


When I demoed my bike I went too, but it was in the ally behind the shop. When you feel that kick for the first time, you just want to go fast; but riding that way all the time is physically and mentally exhausting, and if other people are on the trail is just plain rude. Also, battery life is poor when operating at high assist and going fast.

(Home sick today wishing I was out riding.)


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Harryman said:


> That's one way to do it, and will work in areas that don't have easement issues with a motorized designation. IME, this would lead to the moto community blowing a gasket, since it's now motorized and they can't ride there. My parks dept had to do something similar to allow Class 1/2 ebikes on MUT bike paths, they had to rewrite their code. They only are willing to do that every 10 years or so, which is typical of dealing with a governmental agency, their wheels grind slowly.
> 
> In general in attempting to gain access to a new area, or build new trail, it's often far more complicated behind the scenes than it appears on the surface.


Maybe money could grease the wheels a bit. For instance, a tax on sales of eBikes or electric mountain bikes to provide dedicated funding for recreation management and the cost of the environmental studies required by NEPA. Also a permit system for eBikes; I remember having to sticker my dirt bike in Idaho.

This would work something like the Pittman-Roberson Federal Excise Tax on firearms which was later expanded to include archery equipment. Maybe even include mountain bikes but add an extra tax for the motor and track the revenue separately.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

hikerdave said:


> Maybe money could grease the wheels a bit. For instance, a tax on sales of eBikes or electric mountain bikes to provide dedicated funding for recreation management and the cost of the environmental studies required by NEPA. Also a permit system for eBikes; I remember having to sticker my dirt bike in Idaho.
> 
> This would work something like the Pittman-Roberson Federal Excise Tax on firearms which was later expanded to include archery equipment. Maybe even include mountain bikes but add an extra tax for the motor and track the revenue separately.



Idaho passed a law saying that ebikes have the same access as bicycles do on trails. It passed 69 to 0 and 34 to 0.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> Maybe even include mountain bikes


No thanks.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Idaho passed a law saying that ebikes have the same access as bicycles do on trails. It passed 69 to 0 and 34 to 0.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.idahostatesman.com/outdoors/biking/article227243029.html

According to the article in the Idaho Statesman, not much will change. Most riding in Idaho is on Federal land. If I was still living in Idaho the biggest change might be eventually riding in Ponderosa State Park.

Probably I had one of the first half dozen mountain bikes sold in Boise; there weren't too many to choose from. Riding a mountain bike in the foothills was no big deal; hardly anyone hiked the foothills back then; if anything the presence of bikes brought the hikers.

If eBikes had been around when the Travel Management Plan was developed, eBikes likely would have been allowed on most trails, because of the vastly lower environmental impact relative to motorcycles and ATVs.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Most of the good riding in Idaho is on Federal Land, so it will be all the more obvious that the Federal Government is running contrary to the wishes of the state. That is, of course, if the Federal Agencies choose to actively exclude eBikes, and it sounds like few, if any, are.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Most of the good riding in Idaho is on Federal Land, so it will be all the more obvious that the Federal Government is running contrary to the wishes of the state. That is, of course, if the Federal Agencies choose to actively exclude eBikes, and it sounds like few, if any, are.


Eventually I think that they will ease up on eBikes; the original travel plans were made to address the erosion issues caused by four-wheel drives and motorcycles. When I left Boise, there was still a huge scar on the motorcycle trail visible from downtown. It's probably still there.

By law, (Executive Order 11644 and NEPA) the Forest Service and BLM can't just decide to allow eBikes (because motor) which means that gaining trail access will be a tough slog through a bureaucratic morass.

On the other hand, as you say, the passage of State laws favoring eBikes will move this process along; the same agencies are also bound by law to provide recreational opportunity. (Multiple-Use Sustained-Yield Act of 1960). Multiple use could easily include eBikes.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Let's say you are a Forest Service Supervisor in Idaho and you decide to passively allow eBikes. Who in Federal Government is going to hold your feet to the fire? Congress voted to classify 750 watts as a bicycle. Who in the state government would chastise you for following an approach that they unanimously approved? What group of democratically elected officials determined that eBikes should be classified as a motor vehicle on USFS and BLM land?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Let's say you are a Forest Service Supervisor in Idaho and you decide to passively allow eBikes. Who in Federal Government is going to hold your feet to the fire? Congress voted to classify 750 watts as a bicycle. Who in the state government would chastise you for following an approach that they unanimously approved? What group of democratically elected officials determined that eBikes should be classified as a motor vehicle on USFS and BLM land?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

hey now, don't use Yoda to put yourself down. You will get smarter, just put away the keyboard and try reading instead of interrupting. Ask an adult if you need help.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm beginning to think there should be a 'Fantasy Land' subforum.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm beginning to think there should be a 'Fantasy Land' subforum.


We need a subforum for those who post incessantly without any positive, or productive contribution. We can call it the 'listen to yourself talk' subforum, and since you are the expert we will make you moderator.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> hey now, don't use Yoda to put yourself down. You will get smarter, just put away the keyboard and try reading instead of interrupting. Ask an adult if you need help.


Ah, the ole "I know you are but what am I?" retort. That might have workeed for you in grade school (I'm assuming you got out) but just confirms how dim you are here.

You really should take your own advice ("try reading") before posting. You would perhaps look a little less foolish.

Read and learn:

*"Let's say you are a Forest Service Supervisor in Idaho and you decide to passively allow eBikes. Who in Federal Government is going to hold your feet to the fire?*"

Assuming that a career professional that has worked their way up to Forest Supervisor choose to ignore a federal regulation like that (very improbable), his Regional Forester (there are nine) would be the one to discipline him. Most likely after being notified by interested parties that the Forest Service Supervisor was derelict in his duty.

*"Congress voted to classify 750 watts as a bicycle."

*Not this crap again...

Public Law 107-319 (the Act), enacted
December 4, 2002, amends the
Consumer Product Safety Act (CPSA).

It regulates sales, not usage.

*"Who in the state government would chastise you for following an approach that they unanimously approved?"

*The State has no say in whether you can ride an electric bike on Federal lands where they are banned. See: The Property Clause of the U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2.

*"What group of democratically elected officials determined that eBikes should be classified as a motor vehicle on USFS and BLM land?"
*
That group includes:

The democratically elected 1969 congress that set the stage with the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969

Democratically elected President Richard Nixon who signed Executive Order 11644--Use of off-road vehicles on the public lands.

Democratically elected President Jimmy Carter who signed Executive Order 11989-Off-Road Vehicles on Public Lands

Which led to the USFS TMR in 2005 and the more recent Electric Bikes and Trail Management decision.

Furthermore, you should read about the nondelegation doctrine, enabling legislation and the APA.

Good luck in your search for understanding! Hopefully you'll be slightly less dumb once you're done doing your homework above.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> We need a subforum for those who post incessantly without any positive, or productive contribution. We can call it the 'listen to yourself talk' subforum, and since you are the expert we will make you moderator.


Reality checks hurt your feelings?

So sad. 

FWIW, I was actually a moderator of this subforum for awhile. I asked to be removed because I find it impossible not to call out blatant idiocy, and idiots don't seem to like it.
So here we are...


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> Ah, the ole "I know you are but what am I?" retort. That might have workeed for you in grade school (I'm assuming you got out) but just confirms how dim you are here.
> 
> You really should take your own advice ("try reading") before posting. You would perhaps look a little less foolish.
> 
> ...


Great information. The Electric Bikes and Trail Management decision.

isn't exactly the Forest Service's final say on the matter; the letter to regional managers leaves open the possibility of classifying electric bicycles as a different kind of vehicle under 36 CFR 212.55. No rules have to be changed for eBikes to be allowed on some trails that are currently non-motorized but land managers have a series of hoops to jump through if they want to do so.

Maybe I'll go out to a motorcycling area with my Virb 360 camera on the helmet and record some footage showing just how compatible motorcycles and eBikes really are; I'm guessing that I wouldn't be very welcome on my eBike. 36 CFR 212.55 b 4 talks about minimizing conflict between classes of motorized users but this is sort of a catch-22 when my eBike and a Honda CRF450R are in the same class.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> G
> Maybe I'll go out to a motorcycling area with my Virb 360 camera on the helmet and record some footage showing just how compatible motorcycles and eBikes really are; I'm guessing that I wouldn't be very welcome on my eBike.


That's regional, I happily ride my mtb on moto tracks all the time. Great fun!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

hikerdave said:


> Maybe I'll go out to a motorcycling area with my Virb 360 camera on the helmet and record some footage showing just how compatible motorcycles and eBikes really are; I'm guessing that I wouldn't be very welcome on my eBike. 36 CFR 212.55 b 4 talks about minimizing conflict between classes of motorized users but this is sort of a catch-22 when my eBike and a Honda CRF450R are in the same class.


These trails are all in a "motorcycle area" i.e motos are legal and share the trails with bikes.

Why do you imagine that ebikes would be unwelcome?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> These trails are all in a "motorcycle area" i.e motos are legal and share the trails with bikes.
> 
> Why do you imagine that ebikes would be unwelcome?


Because I think that in a busy area I'd be in their way, and because I knew a motorcycle rider who very much resented the loss of his favorite moto trails to mountain bikers when the travel restrictions first went into place.

Conversely, I've ridden a moto trail before where riders stopped to chat but that trail was fairly remote; I'm not so sure about trails in the Phoenix area, though. Within the next few months I'll know for sure - it might be like kayaking on Canyon lake though, where all of the power boats just slowed down or gave me a wide berth.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

hikerdave said:


> Because I think that in a busy area I'd be in their way, and because I knew a motorcycle rider who very much resented the loss of his favorite moto trails to mountain bikers when the travel restrictions first went into place.
> 
> Conversely, I've ridden a moto trail before where riders stopped to chat but that trail was fairly remote; I'm not so sure about trails in the Phoenix area, though. Within the next few months I'll know for sure - it might be like kayaking on Canyon lake though, where all of the power boats just slowed down or gave me a wide berth.


You're all over the place here


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> Ah, the ole "I know you are but what am I?" retort. That might have workeed for you in grade school (I'm assuming you got out) but just confirms how dim you are here.
> 
> You really should take your own advice ("try reading") before posting. You would perhaps look a little less foolish.
> 
> ...


none of your examples relate to a democratically elected group addressing eBikes as motor vehicles, but it is nice to see you have moved on from posting pictures!

I will tell the Forest Supervisor that he is in big trouble for treating eBikes as bicycles. some person on mtbr.com says so.

Democratically elected governments across the US (including Congress) are voting to disassociate eBikes with motor vehicles and you brush it off as meaningless, but some ignoramus hired by the Forest Service farts out the interpretation that eBikes are motor vehicles and that is taken as religious perfection that can't be altered in any way.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> Democratically elected governments across the US (including Congress) are voting to disassociate eBikes with motor vehicles.


Cite one example of congress passing any legislation concerning e-motorbikes. And not the CPSA.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

hikerdave said:


> Great information. The Electric Bikes and Trail Management decision.
> 
> isn't exactly the Forest Service's final say on the matter; the letter to regional managers leaves open the possibility of classifying electric bicycles as a different kind of vehicle under 36 CFR 212.55. No rules have to be changed for eBikes to be allowed on some trails that are currently non-motorized but land managers have a series of hoops to jump through if they want to do so.
> 
> Maybe I'll go out to a motorcycling area with my Virb 360 camera on the helmet and record some footage showing just how compatible motorcycles and eBikes really are; I'm guessing that I wouldn't be very welcome on my eBike. 36 CFR 212.55 b 4 talks about minimizing conflict between classes of motorized users but this is sort of a catch-22 when my eBike and a Honda CRF450R are in the same class.


Joe clarifies his stance as a "Starting point" that will by "adjusted to future needs". When everyone else votes to disassociate eBikes and motor vehicles, the Forest service needs to follow suit, or ask Congress for guidance. The Federal Agencies look foolish for giving Joe Meade, an employee, this level of authority.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Cite one example of congress passing any legislation concerning e-motorbikes. And not the CPSA.


Precisely!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> Precisely!


You are for certain delusional.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

hikerdave said:


> Maybe I'll go out to a motorcycling area with my Virb 360 camera on the helmet and record some footage showing just how compatible motorcycles and eBikes really are; I'm guessing that I wouldn't be very welcome on my eBike. 36 CFR 212.55 b 4 talks about minimizing conflict between classes of motorized users but this is sort of a catch-22 when my eBike and a Honda CRF450R are in the same class.


A comment like this I would expect from someone new to mountain biking or from someone who doesn't really mountain bike or someone who just mtbs around their neighborhood.

You need to get out there if you never mountain bikes in an area where OHVs also go.



J.B. Weld said:


> That's regional, I happily ride my mtb on moto tracks all the time. Great fun!





og-mtb said:


> These trails are all in a "motorcycle area" i.e motos are legal and share the trails with bikes.
> 
> Why do you imagine that ebikes would be unwelcome?


Exactly. Here in Tahoe mountain bikers ride on OHV trails everywhere as they connect most all the singletrack non-motor trails. Never once had an issue on my mtb with motos, atvs, 4x4s or snowmobiles when using the OHV trails to connect singletrack.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> You are for certain delusional.


Pretty sure it's a nonsense bot.

There's no other plausible explanation for the abject lack of understanding.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

scottxpc said:


> Again I ask have you ever ridden on trails with ebikes ? Obviously not or you would know how ridiculous the 50% faster claim is that is simply not true I have ridden with them when I was on my non ebike and I have also ridden them they simply are not 50 % faster. Faster is a matter of FITNESS weather on an Ebike or a regular mountain bike there always going to be people faster than you so now fit riders who are faster than you should not be able to ride the tight twisty trails with you ? Interesting .
> I always come to the same conclusion with people who are so against ebikes there just being selfish. Why cant people just let everyone enjoy themselves without complaining pretty childish actually!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I have ridden my local trails with ebikes that are climbing up the same trail as me going 50% faster.... it is a huge difference and very noticeable. The trails I ride have good visibility and some are double track to allow for passing, but once an ebiker chose to ride into the bushes and grass to pass me..... he never called out or rang a bell, just blew by me going at the very least 50% faster and widened the trail at the same time. That kind of action WILL concern the land managers.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I have ridden my local trails with ebikes that are climbing up the same trail as me going 50% faster.... it is a huge difference and very noticeable. The trails I ride have good visibility and some are double track to allow for passing, but once an ebiker chose to ride into the bushes and grass to pass me..... he never called out or rang a bell, just blew by me going at the very least 50% faster and widened the trail at the same time. That kind of action WILL concern the land managers.


I've ridden my local trails with idiots. I was climbing a single track and these 2 idiots came downhill around a corner 150% faster than me and practically ran me off the trail. That 150% faster than me was very noticeable. This has happened more than several times to me and I bet is very common on single track trails. This kind of action WILL concern the land managers as well. 
Why don't we bring up more stuff we see everyday that should concern land managers like: dogs off leash, dog poop, riders poaching trails, hikers walking 5 abreast across a trail, people using the trails after it rains going around puddles and making the trails wider, etc... What's your point? Except maybe all these users need some education!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> I've ridden my local trails with idiots. I was climbing a single track and these 2 idiots came downhill around a corner 150% faster than me and practically ran me off the trail. That 150% faster than me was very noticeable. This has happened more than several times to me and I bet is very common on single track trails. This kind of action WILL concern the land managers as well.
> Why don't we bring up more stuff we see everyday that should concern land managers like: dogs off leash, dog poop, riders poaching trails, hikers walking 5 abreast across a trail, people using the trails after it rains going around puddles and making the trails wider, etc... What's your point? Except maybe all these users need some education!


Please go have a visit with your local land manager and see how they react to your whataboutism above.

My guess is that it won't increase electric motor bicycle access.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Please go have a visit with your local land manager and see how they react to your whataboutism above.
> 
> My guess is that it won't increase electric motor bicycle access.


Hey my friend og-MTB! How are you doing? 
Why would I complain about mountain bikers almost running me over to land managers? Nothing good would come out of that for us mountain bikers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

NEPMTBA said:


> Thread is about where to ride...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You must be new here.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Hey my friend og-MTB! How are you doing?
> Why would I complain about mountain bikers almost running me over to land managers? Nothing good would come out of that for us mountain bikers!


Exactly. Klurejr noted one instance of a guy passing him off trail and widening the trail.

You went off to whataboutland with dogs off leash, dog poop, riders poaching trails, hikers walking 5 abreast across a trail, people using the trails after it rains going around puddles and making the trails wider, etc.

Your inane whataboutism will have zero impact on expanding electric motor bicycle access. So why whine about it?

p.s. Not your friend. I don't know you and I don't dig hanging out with dim bulbs.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Exactly. Klurejr noted one instance of a guy passing him off trail and widening the trail.
> 
> You went off to whataboutland with dogs off leash, dog poop, riders poaching trails, hikers walking 5 abreast across a trail, people using the trails after it rains going around puddles and making the trails wider, etc.
> 
> ...


Og-Mtb my friend! You just made my point exactly! Klurejr brought up one instance, big deal as you say, especially when you have other idiots (uninformed users) who do way worst damage to trails everyday! 
Og-MTB my friend, I wish I could understand why you always seem to be in a bad mood and sinking to name calling? Maybe if you get out and ride more and stop worry about stuff happening on the internet, you'd be in a better mood! I try to get out at least an hour everyday on the bike and I'm rarely in a bad mood! Try it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Og-Mtb my friend! You just made my point exactly! Klurejr brought up one instance, big deal as you say, especially when you have other idiots (uninformed users) who do way worst damage to trails everyday!
> Og-MTB my friend, I wish I could understand why you always seem to be in a bad mood and sinking to name calling? Maybe if you get out and ride more and stop worry about stuff happening on the internet, you'd be in a better mood! I try to get out at least an hour everyday on the bike and I'm rarely in a bad mood! Try it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome twofer there with the classic "you pointed out my idiocy so you must be in a bad mood" canard and another classic "you upset me so you must not ride enough." Both of your silly assumptions are false.

You're confusing "being in a bad mood" and "worrying about stuff happening on the internet" with me being very amused and laughing. At you.

p.s. that kind of lack of critical thinking ability is why I don't hang out with dim bulbs. The humor that they inadvertently create fades over time and all that is left is pity. Which seems to be where I'm headed in regards to you.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Og-Mtb my friend! You just made my point exactly! Klurejr brought up one instance, big deal as you say, especially when you have other idiots (uninformed users) who do way worst damage to trails everyday!
> Og-MTB my friend, I wish I could understand why you always seem to be in a bad mood and sinking to name calling? Maybe if you get out and ride more and stop worry about stuff happening on the internet, you'd be in a better mood! I try to get out at least an hour everyday on the bike and I'm rarely in a bad mood! Try it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey man, each time you post, you look more ridiculous than the last. Probably best to just bow out of this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bicycle + Motor = Motorcycle.

Pretty simple. 

I think only people that are documented handicapped should be allowed to ride them on public trails that are not certified for motorcycles.



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Awesome twofer there with the classic "you pointed out my idiocy so you must be in a bad mood" canard and another classic "you upset me so you must not ride enough." Both of your silly assumptions are false.
> 
> You're confusing "being in a bad mood" and "worrying about stuff happening on the internet" with me being very amused and laughing. At you.
> 
> p.s. that kind of lack of critical thinking ability is why I don't hang out with dim bulbs. The humor that they inadvertently create fades over time and all that is left is pity. Which seems to be where I'm headed in regards to you.


Og-MTB my friend! Wow, now I find out you're a psychiatrist! You are full of surprises! Don't worry, we are all laughing with you and not at YOU! 
We are all mountain bikers, why are you filled with so much dislike my friend? What about ebikes fills you with such rage? 
Like I said before, if I saw you on the trail, I'd simple say hey og-MTB what trails should we hit today!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Og-MTB my friend! Wow, now I find out you're a psychiatrist! You are full of surprises! Don't worry, we are all laughing with you and not at YOU!
> We are all mountain bikers, why are you filled with so much dislike my friend? What about ebikes fills you with such rage?
> Like I said before, if I saw you on the trail, I'd simple say hey og-MTB what trails should we hit today!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yawn.

You continue to confuse amusement (now tinged with a healthy dose of pity) at your antics with "rage" and "dislike."


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

SteveF said:


> E-bikes don't belong on non-motorized trails. They have motors. It ain't complicated.


When those laws were written years ago motor meant engine..as in gas powered. Poor wording by those lawmakers.

I wonder what the discussion would be today if they had used the correct word engine instead of motor...


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> When those laws were written years ago motor meant engine..as in gas powered. Poor wording by those lawmakers.
> 
> I wonder what the discussion would be today if they had used the correct word engine instead of motor...


You sure about that? Do you think the writers cared? 
Does it really matter how the motor is powered? Is a Tesla not a car?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

1niceride said:


> When those laws were written years ago motor meant engine..as in gas powered. Poor wording by those lawmakers.
> 
> I wonder what the discussion would be today if they had used the correct word engine instead of motor...


Engine, motor, what's the difference? Electric powered vehicles can be as fast as petrol, actually faster.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

1niceride said:


> When those laws were *written years ago motor meant engine..as in gas powered*. Poor wording by those lawmakers.
> 
> I wonder what the discussion would be today if they had used the correct word engine instead of motor...


Nope.









Try again?


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

Omg! I check this thread every so often and see nothing but a bunch of whiners! Sad very sad! We all get that an ebike has an electric motor. The ebike doesn’t cause any more trail damage than a regular bike. I ride regular mt bikes and have come across many idiots breaking the rules on regular mt bikes. Get over the fact that ebikes are coming and you will need to share the trails. I will not be checking this thread again so save your comments.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> So what? Has nothing even remotely do with what you said, nor my response.
> 
> Let me help you out:
> 
> ...


What about the money spent on actual mt bikes in the last decade? No one is getting access based on spending money, this is one of the dumbest e-bike access arguments they use.
I have spent at least 10k in the last decade of mob stuff, can I now ride wherever I want? Bunch of idiots.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> What about the money spent on actual mt bikes in the last decade? No one is getting access based on spending money, this is one of the dumbest e-bike access arguments they use.
> I have spent at least 10k in the last decade of mob stuff, can I now ride wherever I want? Bunch of idiots.


Everyone can get access for money. That's how our government works.

There is actually a bicycle lobby, People for Bikes, that gets money from the bicycle industry to improve trail access. As bicycle industry profits are increasingly dependent on eBike sales, I would expect that more of their lobbying effort will go towards improving access for eBikes.

https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgave2.php?cycle=2018&cmte=C00372862


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Yawn.
> 
> You continue to confuse amusement (now tinged with a healthy dose of pity) at your antics with "rage" and "dislike."


og-mtb my friend. It's pretty obvious you take this stuff seriously!
There are so many whataboutisms in these discussions against ebike and truly one fact. Yes, an ebike does have a motor. The rest of the complaints are whataboutism!

Thank goodness society has something called law reform - the process of changing and updating laws so that they reflect the current values and needs of modern society. Those responsible for making our laws must identify and study shifts in values, behaviours and expectations; they must consider whether new or amended laws are required; they must develop and implement these changes. Law reform is a perpetual or ongoing process: it never finishes. Thank goodness law makers are not as black and white as some members on MTBR (og-mtb)!

You just have to visit any big city to see the affects ebikes have on changing peoples lives for the better. Ebikes are already seen as eco friendly too many in society! Thank goodness many states are in the process or have already amended their laws for commuters and some for off road! With time more states will view off road class 1 ebikes as just another simple tool to enjoy the outdoors for all!


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> og-mtb my friend. It's pretty obvious you take this stuff seriously!
> There are so many whataboutisms in these discussions against ebike and truly one fact. Yes, an ebike does have a motor. The rest of the complaints are whataboutism!
> 
> Thank goodness society has something called law reform - the process of changing and updating laws so that they reflect the current values and needs of modern society. Those responsible for making our laws must identify and study shifts in values, behaviours and expectations; they must consider whether new or amended laws are required; they must develop and implement these changes. Law reform is a perpetual or ongoing process: it never finishes. Thank goodness law makers are not as black and white as some members on MTBR (og-mtb)!
> ...


Now go do something. Contact the Forest Service and ask them to designate eBikes as another class of motor vehicle different from motorcycles. Talking points - 1 hp vs 25 to 60 hp for motorcycles, 50-60 lbs vs 220 to 300 for motorcycles, maximum speed of 20 mph vs 60 mph, sound level 45 db vs 90 db, internal combustion vs electrical power, 500 wH in an eBike battery vs 66 kWH in two gallons of gasoline.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

LOL "now go do something".

I've been to a lot of trail meetings in my life, including lots since e-bikes became a thing. I have yet to see anyone show up to advocate for e-bike access. I see plenty of online whining, though.

-Walt


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Walt said:


> LOL "now go do something".
> 
> I've been to a lot of trail meetings in my life, including lots since e-bikes became a thing. I have yet to see anyone show up to advocate for e-bike access. I see plenty of online whining, though.
> 
> -Walt


This.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> So money and loopholes make electric bikes inevitable, isn't that nice.
> 
> Lots of people value non-motorized spaces, are your interests more important than theirs?


 Yes, because America values money and those with the most get heard. MTB's got access in large part because manufacturers partnered with local riders to form advocacy groups to press for trail access. In that instance, YOUR interests were more important than the interest of non-riders to those with the desire to sell more bikes to trail riders. Today, the folks selling bikes want to sell ebikes, so what did you think would happen: something different? It's all wonderful as long as things are going your way, but it's still the same system with the same methods and goals operating today, only this time it's on behalf of ebikes.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Bicycle + Motor = Motorcycle.
> 
> Pretty simple.
> 
> ...


 Awesome! I agree totally! Do you have any idea how easy it is for a 66 year old man with stenosis and bad knees to get a handicapped permit from his Dr? If that's the case I can soon ride anywhere! And I don't think the handicapped need to worry about Class 1 or Class 2 either. In your scenario I could just get an electric MX bike with pedals as long as I had my handicapped sticker. Whoo Hoo, let'er roost!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> Yes. America values money, MTB's got access in large part because manufacturers partnered with local riders to form advocacy groups to press for trail access. In that instance, YOUR interests were more important than the interest of non-riders to those with the desire to sell more bikes to trail riders. Today, the folks selling bikes want to sell ebikes, so what did you think would happen: something different? It's all wonderful as long as things are going your way, but it's still the same system with the same methods and goals operating today, only this time it's on behalf of ebikes.


Part of me hopes that all forms of mechanized transport gets kicked out of non-motorized spaces due to all this malarkey. I'm good with hiking.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Awesome! I agree totally! Do you have any idea how easy it is for a 66 year old man with stenosis and bad knees to get a handicapped permit from his Dr? If that's the case I can soon ride anywhere! And I don't think the handicapped need to worry about Class 1 or Class 2 either. In your scenario I could just get an electric MX bike with pedals as long as I had my handicapped sticker. Whoo Hoo, let'er roost!!


It doesn't even have to be electric, actually.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Yes, because America values money and those with the most get heard. MTB's got access in large part because manufacturers partnered with local riders to form advocacy groups to press for trail access. In that instance, YOUR interests were more important than the interest of non-riders to those with the desire to sell more bikes to trail riders. Today, the folks selling bikes want to sell ebikes, so what did you think would happen: something different? It's all wonderful as long as things are going your way, but it's still the same system with the same methods and goals operating today, only this time it's on behalf of ebikes.


So, again, please explain why the ATV/UTV/Moto user groups don't have blanket access by now. There's an incredible amount more money being thrown around there, but it seems that in most parts of the country, access is going down rather than up. It's virtually non-existent in the northeast, and people spend millions upon millions on purchases, fuel, taxes, etc on them here. UTVs are like $20k a pop. LMs don't give a damn. They're not going to all of a sudden change their minds about everything because a handful (or even a shitload) of people spent a few grand on e-bikes.

As far as "The Industry" being mainly responsible for MTB access, that's a joke. Besides some local shops kicking in donations (which add up to far, far less than what individual riders come up with), almost 100% of trail building and access efforts in the region I'm in are the result of grassroots, local individual efforts. We easily get more support from local breweries than from any big bike manufacturers. Screw "The Industry".


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> So, again, please explain why the ATV/UTV/Moto user groups don't have blanket access by now.


Around here, they have their own trails...over 1000 miles of trails just for OHV. Snowmobiles...more than 22,000 miles of groomed trails. And you can ride bicycles on the state trails and most of the grant-in-aid trails in addition to the MTB/E-MTB-only trails. Only time there's ever trouble is when the ATV folks try to ride their quads on the groomed snowmobile trails.

Class 1 E-bikes are legal on all state trails here and they're pretty well-accepted. No access issues, plenty of places to ride, no land managers with their panties in a bunch, and the legislature is currently so focused on gun control that e-bikes aren't even close to being on the radar. Nobody gives a crap about Class 1 e-bikes...just another bicycle.
As far as I'm concerned, let 'em roll. Doesn't affect my bicycling at all, nor has it ever since they were blessed by the legislature and the DNR in 2012.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

WoodlandHills said:


> MTB's got access in large part because manufacturers partnered with local riders to form advocacy groups to press for trail access..


Where do you rubes get this nonsense from?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

figofspee said:


> none of your examples relate to a democratically elected group addressing eBikes as motor vehicles, but it is nice to see you have moved on from posting pictures!
> 
> I will tell the Forest Supervisor that he is in big trouble for treating eBikes as bicycles. some person on mtbr.com says so.
> 
> Democratically elected governments across the US (including Congress) are voting to disassociate eBikes with motor vehicles and you brush it off as meaningless, but some ignoramus hired by the Forest Service farts out the interpretation that eBikes are motor vehicles and that is taken as religious perfection that can't be altered in any way.


 Interpreting that they don't have a motor? Nice.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah stuff stuff drivel stuff blah blah blah blah. With time more states will view off road class 1 ebikes as just another simple tool to enjoy the outdoors for all!


Like motorcycles? Just another way to enjoy the forest, right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Like motorcycles? Just another way to enjoy the forest, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you can't tell a difference between a dirt bike an a class 1 ebike, then there's no reason to keep having a discussion with you. Your mind is obviously made up and there's no problem with that. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Maybe search the internet for pictures on a class 1 ebike compare it to a 125, 250, 300, 450 dirt bike. Hopefully you'll see a clear difference!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> If you can't tell a difference between a dirt bike an a class 1 ebike, then there's no reason to keep having a discussion with you. Your mind is obviously made up and there's no problem with that. We are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> Maybe search the internet for pictures on a class 1 ebike compare it to a 125, 250, 300, 450 dirt bike. Hopefully you'll see a clear difference!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 But concede the fact that the lines can be blurred. 250, 750, 2000 watts all look the same. E motor cycles with tiny cranks that don't do anything.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Traditional50s said:


> Having just got back into biking after many years. I really like what is happening all over the world in ebike tech and development. All researched and ready to purchase I thought I'd look for the nearest trails to ride.
> I live in North Georgia and there are many great trails near me but almost all ban ebikes, the federal government it turns out classifies ebikes as motorcycles so all local government seems to follow suit. So no riding on mountain bike trails.
> Although not clear on all the details ( I will research it thoroughly), it seems that the USA is firmly against ebikes off road.
> 
> ...


 Uhh, ride where motorized vehicles are allowed? Start there, lots of areas where there are less people and more forest. The hard part is there is not a one shoe fits all. Federal, state and local rules vary widely. Start with some local advocacy first. Join your local e bike group( or start one) It's not an obvious problem to many. Realize that in many areas the mt bikers are a minority. Horsey folk, dog walkers and hikers will have a say too. CA and Colorado have made some ebike inroads, check them out.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Walt said:


> LOL "now go do something".
> 
> I've been to a lot of trail meetings in my life, including lots since e-bikes became a thing. I have yet to see anyone show up to advocate for e-bike access. I see plenty of online whining, though.
> 
> -Walt


Ditto. When we were having public meetings re ebikes, a few guys would show up who wanted to ride on bike paths, never anyone wanting to ride on singletrack.



WoodlandHills said:


> MTB's got access in large part because manufacturers partnered with local riders to form advocacy groups to press for trail access. In that instance, YOUR interests were more important than the interest of non-riders to those with the desire to sell more bikes to trail riders.


Lol, nice revisionist history.

MTB advocacy organizations developed as a direct response to losing access. In the early days, all trails were open to bikes since no one thought to ride them on hiking trails (ok, a few probably were, but really, no one.) Eventually, there were enough mtbs to be noticed, then enough to raise the ire of those who make those decisions, and they began to get banned. Only then did people organize and fight for access. The industry had diddly to do with it. They really only supported IMBA, who for the most part never affected the local organization directly. They were the P4B for mtbs.

All access is local, and for most orgs, they have never been supported by "the industry" to any significant degree. More sales only drive policy in locations that depend on recreation/bike fun as a major economic driver, not in most places.

This is one of the older CO mtb orgs, a similar scenario has played out all over the US. Mine is only 2 years younger, same story.

https://bouldermountainbike.org/content/history


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> If you can't tell a difference between a dirt bike an a class 1 ebike, then there's no reason to keep having a discussion with you. Your mind is obviously made up and there's no problem with that. We are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> Maybe search the internet for pictures on a class 1 ebike compare it to a 125, 250, 300, 450 dirt bike. Hopefully you'll see a clear difference!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No doubt, a very clear difference. The ebike analogy would be, ok, a 125 is legal, but nothing above. And then what?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Walt said:


> LOL "now go do something".
> 
> I've been to a lot of trail meetings in my life, including lots since e-bikes became a thing. I have yet to see anyone show up to advocate for e-bike access. I see plenty of online whining, though.
> 
> -Walt


And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast. That's what I call winning. As a motorless mountain biker, I only ever see trail access loss. You should take a page out of the eBiker playbook, because these newbies are crushing it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WoodlandHills said:


> Awesome! I agree totally! Do you have any idea how easy it is for a 66 year old man with stenosis and bad knees to get a handicapped permit from his Dr? If that's the case I can soon ride anywhere! And I don't think the handicapped need to worry about Class 1 or Class 2 either. In your scenario I could just get an electric MX bike with pedals as long as I had my handicapped sticker. Whoo Hoo, let'er roost!!


I sincerely agree that e- bikes cause limited additional trail damage and the speed differential is low enough and they should be classified as such. At this time for the most part, they are classified as cycles, with motors, or motorcycles. So they aren't allowed. Don't try to convince me, convince the land managers.
I think they are lame, and I've destroyed nearly every bone and joint in my body. But I do think that handicapped people should genuinely be encouraged to be outdoors and should be given an immediate exception to ride e-bikes on non motorized trails. Just like we encourage the infirm to drive the little scooters around the supermarket. Sure, some like you, would choose to abuse it. But that would be the exception, as most would be to embarrassed to do that. 
Take care.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Give it time...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast. That's what I call winning. As a motorless mountain biker, I only ever see trail access loss. You should take a page out of the eBiker playbook, because these newbies are crushing it.


Where? Be specific.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

figofspee said:


> And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast. That's what I call winning. As a motorless mountain biker, I only ever see trail access loss. You should take a page out of the eBiker playbook, because these newbies are crushing it.


Really? Not where I live. Quite the opposite, actually. I suspect you're just talking out of your ass, per usual.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> If you can't tell a difference between a dirt bike an a class 1 ebike, then there's no reason to keep having a discussion with you. Your mind is obviously made up and there's no problem with that. We are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> Maybe search the internet for pictures on a class 1 ebike compare it to a 125, 250, 300, 450 dirt bike. Hopefully you'll see a clear difference!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course I can tell the difference, silly. I never said they were the same, just another way to enjoy the trails, that's all. Why shouldn't I be able to do that? I'm old and it's a gas!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

leeboh said:


> But concede the fact that the lines can be blurred. 250, 750, 2000 watts all look the same. E motor cycles with tiny cranks that don't do anything.


Honestly, I've only come across class 1 ebikes: Tazers, Levos, trances, Shuttle, Treks. The only place I see anything bigger than 250 is on the internet and they always seem to be more commuter type. So I guess they do exist, maybe the 1% group? How many have you come across on mountain bike trails?



mbmb65 said:


> Of course I can tell the difference, silly. I never said they were the same, just another way to enjoy the trails, that's all. Why shouldn't I be able to do that? I'm old and it's a gas!!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, your right when I road dirt bikes, I loved riding in the Forrest! Kennedy Meadows in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, Kernville, back side of Big Bear to name a few is just awesome!


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Honestly, I've only come across class 1 ebikes: Tazers, Levos, trances, Shuttle, Treks. The only place I see anything bigger than 250 is on the internet and they always seem to be more commuter type. So I guess they do exist, maybe the 1% group? How many have you come across on mountain bike trails?
> 
> Sorry, your right when I road dirt bikes, I loved riding in the Forrest! Kennedy Meadows in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, Kernville, back side of Big Bear to name a few is just awesome!


Sweet! So you're cool with me riding my KTM on your local single track? Good to know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> ...The only place I see anything bigger than 250 is on the internet... How many have you come across on mountain bike trails?


The stealth ebikes are quite popular in the north Lake Tahoe/Truckee area and I have seen more of these than any other type of ebike. There is a shop in Truckee that sell them so that adds to their popularity here. 
https://stealthtahoe.com

One of the below stealth ebikes is a legal 750w ebike and the other has twice the legal limit of power. Can you guess which is which?

















Also, really hard to tell how much power an ebike motor is capable of by looking at. You might not even know you're looking at an ebike with more than the legal limit. For example this little motor sure packs some punch for its size.

https://paradoxkinetics.com


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Sweet! So you're cool with me riding my KTM on your local single track? Good to know.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why wouldn't I? KTM has some pretty sweet full suspension mountain bikes and I think their coming out with a nice class 1 ebike!


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> Why wouldn't I? KTM has some pretty sweet full suspension mountain bikes and I think their coming out with a nice class 1 ebike!










this ok with you?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> Honestly, I've only come across class 1 ebikes: Tazers, Levos, trances, Shuttle, Treks. The only place I see anything bigger than 250 is on the internet and they always seem to be more commuter type. So I guess they do exist, maybe the 1% group? How many have you come across on mountain bike trails?
> 
> Sorry, your right when I road dirt bikes, I loved riding in the Forrest! Kennedy Meadows in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, Kernville, back side of Big Bear to name a few is just awesome!


 How many on my trails? Zero. MA guy here, for the most part motorized access is outlawed in the whole state except for 8 or so motorized areas.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast.


Not the northeast US.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

figofspee said:


> And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast. That's what I call winning. As a motorless mountain biker, I only ever see trail access loss. You should take a page out of the eBiker playbook, because these newbies are crushing it.


 Northeast US? Where? State and park/forest specifically. Please. Or just grasping at straws again.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not the northeast US.


Not in the southeast either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

figofspee said:


> And yet eBikes are getting trail access left and right, or in your case northwest and northeast. That's what I call winning. As a motorless mountain biker, I only ever see trail access loss. You should take a page out of the eBiker playbook, because these newbies are crushing it.


Please post links to all the areas you are speaking of that have recently opened up access to eBikes due to the newbies who are are fighting for access.

If you don't have links to back up what you are saying, perhaps reconsider what you post.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Please post links to all the areas you are speaking of that have recently opened up access to eBikes due to the newbies who are are fighting for access.
> 
> If you don't have links to back up what you are saying, perhaps reconsider what you post.


https://www.jeffco.us/3618/e-bikes


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> https://www.jeffco.us/3618/e-bikes


One county ssn't exactly 'left and right'.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> https://www.jeffco.us/3618/e-bikes





slapheadmofo said:


> One county ssn't exactly 'left and right'.


And that was not "recent", that has been in progress for well over a year.

You should know that Honk, you posted about it back in 2017:
https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/interesting-results-colorado-emtb-survey-1061380.html


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> One county ssn't exactly 'left and right'.


Not really, no. In the last few years in Colorado, Jeffco and Co State parks opened up @ 300 miles of non motorized trails to ebikes, about 4% of the mountain bike trails in the state. It's provisional in State Parks, they're going to see how it goes.

https://kdvr.com/2017/06/02/new-online-interactive-map-shows-of-every-kind-of-trail-in-colorado/

Lots of good moto legal trails out there worth riding though.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> And that was not "recent", that has been in progress for well over a year.
> 
> You should know that Honk, you posted about it back in 2017:
> https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/interesting-results-colorado-emtb-survey-1061380.html


The rule was implemented in 2018. It is March of 2019. What, you want something in the past two weeks?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm not saying there has been no progress made, but to characterize it as wide-spread and common is, as usual for that poster, way the hell out there in fantasy land.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

Ya all know whats going to happen...the ebike haters will rent/barrow/steal ebikes and tear up the trails by skidding and riding in the rain and say..see what the ebikers did..


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

1niceride said:


> Ya all know whats going to happen...the ebike haters will rent/barrow/steal ebikes and tear up the trails by skidding and riding in the rain and say..see what the ebikers did..


 Hater, hmmm. The same folks who build the trails and maintain them are going to do this? Not likely. Barrow? Is that like British english or something?


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Hater, hmmm. The same folks who build the trails and maintain them are going to do this? Not likely. Barrow? Is that like British english or something?


Yea...the a and o are real close together on the keyboard...finger slipped a little...

Haters will go to any measure to screw with those they hate.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

1niceride said:


> Yea...the a and o are real close together on the keyboard...finger slipped a little...
> 
> Haters will go to any measure to screw with those they hate.


Works both ways in this case.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

1niceride said:


> Yea...the a and o are real close together on the keyboard...finger slipped a little...
> 
> Haters will go to any measure to screw with those they hate.


WTF kind of weirdass keyboard are you using?

First the engine/motor nonsense and now this. You're really working hard on hitting the ebiker stereotype bingo.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> WTF kind of weirdass keyboard are you using?
> 
> First the engine/motor nonsense and now this. You're really working hard on hitting the ebiker stereotype bingo.


...was kidding about the keyboard. I was typing in a hurry cause the wife was calling and for some reason the spell check wasn't working.

I am actually really jealous about all the trails the rest of the country has...being from upstate NY...so I get involved in this thread even though I have nothing really helpful to say. I really do understand the issues here. I really don't think the ebike is the issue...The irresponsible ebiker is/might be the issue. The irresponsible ebiker will have more tools to wreck the trails if that is the intention...which will happen upon occasion.

The area I live in is a very old part of the country. Our mv laws are kinda arcane here and when written electric motors on anything mobile were not in existence...were written with enginecycles...I mean motorcycles in mind...see what I did there...


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> ...was kidding about the keyboard. I was typing in a hurry cause the wife was calling and for some reason the spell check wasn't working.
> 
> I am actually really jealous about all the trails the rest of the country has...being from upstate NY...so I get involved in this thread even though I have nothing really helpful to say. I really do understand the issues here. I really don't think the ebike is the issue...The irresponsible ebiker is/might be the issue. The irresponsible ebiker will have more tools to wreck the trails if that is the intention...which will happen upon occasion.
> 
> The area I live in is a very old part of the country. Our mv laws are kinda arcane here and when written electric motors on anything mobile were not in existence...were written with enginecycles...I mean motorcycles in mind...see what I did there...


No, what did you do? Post a poorly crafted collection of words, or admit that you're talking out of the side of your mouth?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> No, what did you do? Post a poorly crafted collection of words, or admit that you're talking out of the side of your mouth?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Damm that's hateful...Just be nice and reply to the ideas I wrote in a respectful way.

Don't some see the comparison between firearms and ebikes? Both need bad people with bad intentions to be evil.

As the battary got better and ebikes came into existance ebikes just got rolled into motorcycle law...path of least resistance.

..there..hate on that if it makes ya happy..

I'm gonna check for new posts on the panty thread...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

... and yet here we are with yet another idiotic thread that dominates this forum.



slapheadmofo said:


> Reality checks hurt your feelings?
> 
> So sad.
> 
> ...


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> Damm that's hateful...Just be nice and reply to the ideas I wrote in a respectful way.
> 
> Don't some see the comparison between firearms and ebikes? Both need bad people with bad intentions to be evil.
> 
> ...


Sorry. Not trying to be hateful, but your ideas pull my brain in funny ways. Maybe ebikes were sucked into motorcycle law because of the motor?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Sorry. Not trying to be hateful, but your ideas pull my brain in funny ways. Maybe ebikes were sucked into motorcycle law because of the motor?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


They got sucked in cause of lazy lawmakers who didn't want to spend time making separate laws for them that make sense.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

1niceride said:


> They got sucked in cause of lazy lawmakers who didn't want to spend time making separate laws for them that make since.


The lawmakers have done a good job of reversing the lazy association of eBikes and motor vehicles. 33 states now associate an eBike (750watt) with bicycles.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> They got sucked in cause of lazy lawmakers who didn't want to spend time making separate laws for them that make sense.


Ok, if you say so. So, I'm a little lazy too, and I don't want to flip back to check, but ARE you the guy that said electric motors weren't motors, and gas powered motors, were motors?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mbmb65 said:


> Ok, if you say so. So, I'm a little lazy too, and I don't want to flip back to check, but ARE you the guy that said electric motors weren't motors, and gas powered motors, were motors?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Google motor versus engine
The real difference, is the fact that "motors" run on electricity, while "engines" run on combustion. ... On the rare occasions we encounter one, we refer to a steam locomotive as an engine, the same word that we give to the motive power of an aircraft. But all electrical devices are driven by motors.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Ok, if you say so. So, I'm a little lazy too, and I don't want to flip back to check, but ARE you the guy that said electric motors weren't motors, and gas powered motors, were motors?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't think so...I might have said when the traffic laws around here were written a motor was thought of as a gas motor or engine. There were no practical electric motor mobile thingy to make laws about.

As figo said the laws are a chang'in..


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

figofspee said:


> Google motor versus engine
> The real difference, is the fact that "motors" run on electricity, while "engines" run on combustion. ... On the rare occasions we encounter one, we refer to a steam locomotive as an engine, the same word that we give to the motive power of an aircraft. But all electrical devices are driven by motors.


A motor can be powered by either internal combustion, or electricity, or both. Are you familiar with the DMV? Motor cars? Motor cycles? Motor inns?Really man, you can't be serious with your "facts".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> Don't think so...I might have said when the traffic laws around here were written a motor was thought of as a gas motor or engine. There were no practical electric motor mobile thingy to make laws about.
> 
> As figo said the laws are a chang'in..


If you're using that guy as a source, and consider his ramblings to be fact, then god help you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mbmb65 said:


> A motor can be powered by either internal combustion, or electricity, or both. Are you familiar with the DMV? Motor cars? Motor cycles? Motor inns?Really man, you can't be serious with your "facts".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Take it up with Google, don't shoot the messenger


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> A motor can be powered by either internal combustion, or electricity, or both. Are you familiar with the DMV? Motor cars? Motor cycles? Motor inns?Really man, you can't be serious with your "facts".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yer gettin stuck in the words...go back 50 or 60 years or more when the laws were first developed...Think what was in their heads...electric mobile anything? No way. The traffic laws have been tweeked along the way but not a complete overhaul I don't think.

..again...times are a chang'in..says Bob Dylan...


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

figofspee said:


> Take it up with Google, don't shoot the messenger


Man, what are you talking about? Are you making up definitions now? Answer my questions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> Yer gettin stuck in the words...go back 50 or 60 years or more when the laws were first developed...Think what was in their heads...electric mobile anything? No way. The traffic laws have been tweeked along the way but not a complete overhaul I don't think.
> 
> ..again...times are a chang'in..says Bob Dylan...


Ok Einstein's. Here's yer google. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

1niceride said:


> Yer gettin stuck in the words...go back 50 or 60 years or more when the laws were first developed...Think what was in their heads...electric mobile anything? No way. The traffic laws have been tweeked along the way but not a complete overhaul I don't think.
> 
> ..again...times are a chang'in..says Bob Dylan...


Oh, I'm stuck in the words. Got it. You and frick started this trip with semantics. And please don't misquote Dylan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

mbmb65 said:


> Oh, I'm stuck in the words. Got it. You and frick started this trip with semantics. And please don't misquote Dylan.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yea...,my 30 year old son just let me know I screwed that up...

..sure are a lot of thread prosecutors here...


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

1niceride said:


> Haters will go to any measure to screw with those they hate.


Ya, I always thought it was strange that there are people out there who hate trails that ban motors of any kind. And you're right about going to any measure to screw with non-motorized trail users like saying a motor is different than a engine to try and sneak motors on to those non-motorized trails making the trails in effect, motorized. But, as you said, haters gona hate, right?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Google motor versus engine
> The real difference, is the fact that "motors" run on electricity, while "engines" run on combustion. ... On the rare occasions we encounter one, we refer to a steam locomotive as an engine, the same word that we give to the motive power of an aircraft. But all electrical devices are driven by motors.


I own two MOTORcycles, They both have gasoline powered MOTORs in them.

Keep digging.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

singletrackmack said:


> Ya, I always thought it was strange that there are people out there who hate trails that ban motors of any kind. And you're right about going to any measure to screw with non-motorized trail users like saying a motor is different than a engine to try and sneak motors on to those non-motorized trails making the trails in effect, motorized. But, as you said, haters gona hate, right?


There are 18 states that have yet to vote on whether or not to equate eBikes with bicycles. If you want to preserve the purity of cycling, you should petition these states to continue to exclude eBikes from bicycles, and move there. Unfortunately for you, those states are not known for their trail riding so much. Louisiana, Georgia, etc.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

figofspee said:


> There are 18 states that have yet to vote on whether or not to equate eBikes with bicycles. If you want to preserve the purity of cycling, you should petition these states to continue to exclude eBikes from bicycles, and move there. Unfortunately for you, those states are not known for their trail riding so much. Louisiana, Georgia, etc.


I am in one of those states that equates ebikes with bikes for use of the vehicle code. And we have world class trial riding. Unfortunate for you, you can't ride that ebike on all that good stuff around me cause ebikes are banned on all non-moto trails here. No need to petition, it's already taken care of.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> I am in one of those states that equates ebikes with bikes for use of the vehicle code. And we have world class trial riding. Unfortunate for you, you can't ride that ebike on all that good stuff around me cause ebikes are banned on all non-moto trails here. No need to petition, it's already taken care of.


Good news, nothing is written in stone! If yours is one of those states, then the ground work is set! Just a matter of time. ..

In CA, we passed AB 1096, which now properly classifies ebikes from motor bicycle or moped to an electric bicycle! And adopted the current 3 classification: 1, 2 & 3. Sounds like your state has similar laws! This sets the ground work for change (law reform)!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

^I am in California. No where on the hundreds of miles of non-moto singletrack near me in California are ebikes allowed. You can ride them on the bike paths around here due to ab 1096, if you want so have at it. They are great for cummuting if you’re one of the few people who actually commute on a bike in this state.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> You're all over the place here


Yup. I don't know what to expect. That's why I'll go out to a local motorcycle riding area with my eBike. I've already picked out the area; just need a state land permit and have to earn some fun tickets by doing some household chores.

If it works out well I'll come back here and show how much fun I had; hopefully I don't get roosted.

I do know what to expect riding my eBike legally in South Mountain Park; no problems from anyone except a lot of questions from older mountain bikers (my age).


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Oh yeah...I am not saying that regular MTBr's are all angels...we have a fair share of people who also ride too fast, ride on trails they are not allowed to, do damage to trails etc; there are many, many douchebag non-e riders...
> 
> the main issue is the motor...and how it redefines the bike....and how people who want to do things their way, regardless of what is "right", are trying to "excuse" themselves form the law, and the perception of the non motorized trail using majority, which is hikers and horseys
> 
> ...


A lot of the "I want it now" attitude comes from the riders being older thus do not have the time to "wait". Those same older riders are the ones that built many of the trails they are being told to not ride on.

There does seem to be a serious "if you can't climb find another hobby" attitude in "modern" mountain biking that was not seen earlier.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> In CA, we passed AB 1096, which now properly classifies ebikes from motor bicycle or moped to an electric bicycle! And adopted the current 3 classification: 1, 2 & 3. Sounds like your state has similar laws! This sets the ground work for change (law reform)!


It's quite popular for some folks to conflate changes to State laws that permit various classes of electric motor bicycles to use the roadways without needing insurance/licensing the operator with increased trail access. It's a curious argument and I always wonder whether those folks just don't understand what the legislation says or if they are purposely trying to mislead newbies. Either way it's not a good look.

In California, post AB 1096, electric motor bicycles are still restricted to motorized trails on USFS and BLM lands. Many State parks and local jurisdictions still ban electric motor bicycles.

"SEC. 4. Section 21113 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:

(g) *A public agency*, including, but not limited to, the Regents of the University of California and the Trustees of the California State University, *may adopt rules or regulations to restrict, or specify the conditions for, the use of bicycles, motorized bicycles, electric bicycles, *skateboards, and roller skates on public property under the jurisdiction of that agency.

SEC. 5. Section 21207.5 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:

21207.5. (a) Notwithstanding Sections 21207 and 23127 of this code, or any other law, a motorized bicycle or class 3 electric bicycle shall not be operated on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane established pursuant to Section 21207, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over the path or trail permits, by ordinance, that operation.

(b) *The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail.*

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

KenPsz said:


> There does seem to be a serious "if you can't climb find another hobby" attitude in "modern" mountain biking that I was not seen earlier.


Yeah, that whole "shuttle monkey" thing, denigrating "DHers" for riding lifts, and "earn your turns" attitude never happened before now...

You have an amazing ability to be consistently wrong.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Good news, nothing is written in stone! If yours is one of those states, then the ground work is set! Just a matter of time. ..
> 
> In CA, we passed AB 1096, which now properly classifies ebikes from motor bicycle or moped to an electric bicycle! And adopted the current 3 classification: 1, 2 & 3. Sounds like your state has similar laws! This sets the ground work for change (law reform)!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here's the eBike primer from the National Conference of State Legislatures:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/state-electric-bicycle-laws-a-legislative-primer.aspx

The first step to gaining acess is persuading the Federal regulators at the NFS and BLM to adopt Class I and Class Ii of the state systems as recognized classes of vehicles; then after lightweight NEPA reviews with findings of no significant impact local managers can reclassify some trails as low-power motorized) as appropriate to meet user demand.

Increased user demand is pretty much a guarantee because of the inevitable age-related physical decline of today's mountain biking population.

In Arizona I think that the Carr Lake trail system above Payson would be a great start; mostly old logging roads; not very steep and not well used.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

singletrackmack said:


> I am in one of those states that equates ebikes with bikes for use of the vehicle code. And we have world class trial riding. Unfortunate for you, you can't ride that ebike on all that good stuff around me cause ebikes are banned on all non-moto trails here. No need to petition, it's already taken care of.


Yes, and those states that made laws last year or the year prior to last year are being passed over by states like Wyoming and Idaho, who in my experience have better riding, and no qualifier encouraging an eBike ban on dirt. Once the states elected officials equate bikes and eBikes, it is only a matter of time before they are allowed on dirt.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> It's quite popular for some folks to conflate changes to State laws that permit various classes of electric motor bicycles to use the roadways without needing insurance/licensing the operator with increased trail access. It's a curious argument and I always wonder whether those folks just don't understand what the legislation says or if they are purposely trying to mislead newbies. Either way it's not a good look.
> 
> In California, post AB 1096, electric motor bicycles are still restricted to motorized trails on USFS and BLM lands. Many State parks and local jurisdictions still ban electric motor bicycles.
> 
> ...


You got to admit, this is a big change and things don't happen overnight. Now land managers can legally say yes or no to *electric bicycles*:thumbsup:. Signs that say no motorized vehicles allows, no longer apply, as ebikes are now electric bicycles! Law reform at its greatest! Things are changing, give it time!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

"This legislation is an attempt to create clarity in Idaho code with regard to a new category of bicycles increasingly popular on Idaho roads, paths and trails."

https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/H0076SOP.pdf

Of course, local municipalities can attempt to run contrary to state law, but with a unanimous acceptance at state level, it seems unlikely they would go that route. Boise, the only part of the state that I would expect resistance, has already voted to allow eBikes on dirt.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article190655204.html


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> You got to admit, this is a big change and things don't happen overnight. Now land managers can legally say yes or no to *electric bicycles*


*

This is just the kind of disingenuous spin that I mentioned above.

The truth is:

USFS and BLM land in CA =no big change, electric motor bicycles are still banned

State Parks in CA = no big change, electric motor bicycles are still banned in most parks. In fact, Post-AB 1096 some State Parks initiated electric motor bicycle bans. So yeah, things are changing post-1096, just not only the way you imagine.

Local parks in CA= no big change, except for one all of the parks that are local to me still ban electric motor bicycles three years after AB 1096. Some have even had to clarify those restrictions in the interim due to issues with electric motor bicyclists assuming they can ride wherever normal mountain bikes are allowed.*


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

KenPsz said:


> A lot of the "I want it now" attitude comes from the riders being older thus do not have the time to "wait". Those same older riders are the ones that built many of the trails they are being told to not ride on.


hmmm...wasn't thinking about it that way, but i can see a few points about the older rides, who are now hobbled by wear and tear on their body due to aging, feel like they are "losing time"...hell, I feel like that on t he days that I can't ride due to work or family things...like, "man, that was a wasted riding day..."

and, you would think that the many who spent time trail building, and maintaining would see what damage can happen...BUT, I have a feeling that many of the e bike riders were not involved in trail creation etc, and are probably new to the activity of riding off road on a bike.

I still think that the sense of entitlement is the biggest issue...not just in mtbing but in everything...



KenPsz said:


> There does seem to be a serious "if you can't climb find another hobby" attitude in "modern" mountain biking that was not seen earlier.


I have noticed this more since joining this forum and encountering riders from othe r parts of the country. Around here - in Central Ohio - we don't have elevation like other places, so the "Climbing Heroism" was never really a thing that I remember..."macho" - if you bought into that crap - was always calibrated by tech skills and speed on singletrack
, and how expensive your whole rig and kit are...again, if you pay attention to that crap

I always just rode...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> You got to admit, this is a big change and things don't happen overnight. Now land managers can legally say yes or no to *electric bicycles*:thumbsup:. Things are changing, give it time!


They always could say yes or no to electric bikes on land that they manage, it's always been up to the landmanagers. The new Class 1-3 laws made it slightly easier for some, and slightly more complicated for others.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> "This legislation is an attempt to create clarity in Idaho code with regard to a new category of bicycles increasingly popular on Idaho roads, paths and trails."
> 
> https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2019/legislation/H0076SOP.pdf


Pro tip: when trying to Appeal To Authority, read and understand the material before posting.

"DISCLAIMER: This statement of purpose and fiscal note are a mere attachment to this bill and prepared by a proponent of the bill. It is neither intended as an expression of legislative intent nor intended for any use outside of the legislative process, including judicial review (Joint Rule 18)."

"Local control will remain in place"



figofspee said:


> Of course, local municipalities can attempt to run contrary to state law, but with a unanimous acceptance at state level, it seems unlikely they would go that route.


This is more crazy talk. It's false. It's misleading.

Local municipalities that ban electric motor bicycles are not going contrary to State law.

The Idaho State law, like the laws in many other States that it is modeled after, *specifically delegates authority to local jurisdictions to ban electric motor bicycles. *

"Allows E-bikes to be ridden where bicycles are permitted to travel (including trails and multi-use paths), unless excluded by local ordinance or by signage posted by the public agency with jurisdiction." (https://mountainbiketetons.org/trail-news/new-ebike-laws/)


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

If the governing body determines that eBikes should be treated like bicycles, and a local Government overrides that, then they are not only contradicting state law, but the will of the people. It may not be illegal to so, but it's unlikely that a local municipality would go to such lengths to micromanage their constituency based on a few paranoid mountain bikers yelling "motor plus bicycle equals motorcycle".


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Oh, and for the record, the appeal to authority fallacy isn't relevant to my post.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> and a local Government overrides that, then *they are not only going against state law*, but the will of the people. *It may not be illegal to so*


This says it all.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

figofspee said:


> If the governing body determines that eBikes should be treated like bicycles, and a local Government overrides that, then they are not only contradicting state law, but the will of the people. It may not be illegal to so, but it's unlikely that a local municipality would go to such lengths to micromanage their constituency based on a few paranoid mountain bikers yelling "motor plus bicycle equals motorcycle".


You are correct that I did not word that the best way, I improved the wording above and I will go back and phrase my post differently.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> You are correct that I did not word that the best way, I improved the wording above and I will go back and phrase my post differently.


It's still nonsensical.

"If the governing body determines that eBikes should be treated like bicycles, and a local Government overrides that"

FACT: The governing body determined that electric motor bicycles should be treated like normal bikes WRT using the roads, not requiring licensing, insurance, etc. The governing body also determined that local authorities can regulate whether electric motor bicycles can be used on the same trails and paths as normal bikes.

FACT: Under the law, a local government is specifically granted the legal authority to treat electric motor bicycles differently than normal bicycles.​
"then they are not only contradicting state law, but the will of the people. It may not be illegal to so,"

If it's not illegal then how is it contradicting state law?
FACT: Under the law, a local government is specifically granted the legal authority to treat electric motor bicycles differently than normal bicycles. Exercising that authority does not contradict state law.​


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> It's still nonsensical.
> 
> "If the governing body determines that eBikes should be treated like bicycles, and a local Government overrides that"
> 
> ...


Do local authorities control trails on state lands?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Do local authorities control trails on state lands?


What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Correct me if I am wrong, but state government controls state land and local authority controls local land. When the law says that local authority will remain, they are referring to the fact that local authority will preempt state with regard to local property.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but state government controls state land and local authority controls local land. When the law says that local authority will remain, they are referring to the fact that local authority will preempt state with regard to local property.


See post 212.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> See post 212.


on mobile, just quote it


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> on mobile, just quote it


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

I just asked my friend who works in the Government, and she said that State Lands are not subject to local authority. The "local authority will remain" is referring to local lands. In the absence of a local rule regarding eBikes, state law would be the defacto ruling.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

"My friend who works in the Government" 

LOL!!!!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> "My friend who works in the Government"
> 
> LOL!!!!


I know right, state government sounds like a lame job, but she has a cool gig that is fairly independent, and environmentally orientated.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It wasn't the job that I was laughing at...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> I just asked my friend who works in the Government, and she said that State Lands are not subject to local authority. The "local authority will remain" is referring to local lands. In the absence of a local rule regarding eBikes, state law would be the defacto ruling.


Did she stay at a Holiday Inn last night?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Did she stay at a Holiday Inn last night?


Not sure, how that is relevant, but probably not. There is a pattern of when mtbr switches a discussion towards the source of information though...fascinating


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Not sure, how that is relevant, but probably not. There is a pattern of when mtbr switches a discussion towards the source of information though...fascinating


I would definitely expect a person with the title of "Moderator" to refrain from ridicule and personal attacks. However, you have been given some useful information by LBB and OG that is actually helpful. Try not to follow the chaff; your goal and mine is improved access to public land; not to win an argument on this forum. This thread will soon be shut down as non-constructive, and we can start all over again in a few weeks.


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## crager34 (Feb 23, 2005)

Washington:
Here's what you need to know about Washington's new e-bike law - Washington BikesWashington Bikes

Oregon (pages 16-21 mainly):
https://www.tcnf.legal/wp-content/u...ts-A-Legal-Guide-for-Electric-Bike-Riders.pdf

People for Bikes General info:
https://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

hikerdave said:


> I would definitely expect a person with the title of "Moderator" to refrain from ridicule and personal attacks. However, you have been given some useful information by LBB and OG that is actually helpful. Try not to follow the chaff; your goal and mine is improved access to public land; not to win an argument on this forum. This thread will soon be shut down as non-constructive, and we can start all over again in a few weeks.


That post contains neither ridicule nor personal attacks, rather it calls into question the veracity and the source of alleged "factual" information. Thicker skin might be of use to a few of you.

The fact that the poster it was in response to doesn't recognize the reference also points to his being from somewhere other that the U.S.A. also questions why he continually injects faulty, misleading and sometimes purposely untrue information into a discussion of access in the states.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> You got to admit, this is a big change and things don't happen overnight. Now land managers can legally say yes or no to *electric bicycles*:thumbsup:. Signs that say no motorized vehicles allows, no longer apply, as ebikes are now electric bicycles! Law reform at its greatest! Things are changing, give it time!


 Uhhh, hate to break it to you, ebikes are motorized.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Signs that say no motorized vehicles allows, no longer apply, as ebikes are now electric bicycles!


Pssssst...

You're wrong about this as well. Why do you keep spreading so much disinformation?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

figofspee said:


> Yes, and those states that made laws last year or the year prior to last year are being passed over by states like Wyoming and Idaho, who in my experience have better riding, and no qualifier encouraging an eBike ban on dirt...


I have no idea what a "no qualifier encouraging an ebike ban on dirt" means, but you brought up Wyoming and Idaho which I have heard have great mountain biking and a lot of it looks to be on BLM and forest service land. I am sure there are some good city park trails though that might or might not allow ebikes. You'll need to be sure to check for bans before you go obviously.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

singletrackmack said:


> I have no idea what a "no qualifier encouraging an ebike ban on dirt" means, .


Let me help:

That's a fantasy that he's cooked up because he is unable or unwilling to read and understand the actual laws.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

figofspee said:


> If the governing body determines that eBikes should be treated like bicycles, and a local Government overrides that, then they are not only contradicting state law, but the will of the people. It may not be illegal to so, but it's unlikely that a local municipality would go to such lengths to micromanage their constituency based on a few paranoid mountain bikers yelling "motor plus bicycle equals motorcycle".


The will of the people? Have any of these ebike laws been included on a ballot for a public vote? What percentage of the public in any of the states with the Class 1-3 laws even know they exist? These laws are like all the other minor legislative amendments made every day in that if they don't affect you directly, you wouldn't know about.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Uhhh, hate to break it to you, ebikes are motorized.


Never said ebikes didn't have an electric motor. Only stated CA used to classify ebikes as a motor bicycles or mopeds to officially classifying ebikes as an electric bicycles.



og-mtb said:


> Pssssst...
> 
> You're wrong about this as well. Why do you keep spreading so much disinformation?
> 
> View attachment 1241782


Hi og-mtb my friend! How are you doing?

Give it time, as the sales of ebikes continue to grow with each year, things will change!

Just a year ago, I never saw ebikes on any trails, to now seeing ebikes on regular bases. Some riders are older, some are younger and some out of shape, and all had huge smiles. I didn't get run over by any of them and they didn't destroy the trail! They seem just like any other mountain biker! I honestly don't see what's the problem with class 1 ebikes.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

figofspee said:


> Not sure, how that is relevant, but probably not. There is a pattern of when mtbr switches a discussion towards the source of information though...fascinating


It's always funny to me when electric motorists on this site refer to the anti-e-motorists as "mtbr's".



leeboh said:


> Uhhh, hate to break it to you, ebikes are motorized.


It amazing me how difficult it is for some people to grasp this simple concept.



mtbbiker said:


> Give it time, as the sales of ebikes continue to grow with each year, things will change!
> 
> Just a year ago, I never saw ebikes on any trails, to now seeing ebikes on regular bases. Some riders are older, some are younger and some out of shape, and all had huge smiles. I didn't get run over by any of them and they didn't destroy the trail! They seem just like any other mountain biker! I honestly don't see what's the problem with class 1 ebikes.


Things won't change until you start advocating, building, and maintaining trails like mountain bikers have been doing for decades. Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean obvious ones that have been explained numerous times don't exist.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Give it time, as the sales of ebikes continue to grow with each year, things will change!


You didn't answer the simple question that I posed:

Why do you keep spreading so much disinformation?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It amazing me how difficult it is for some people to grasp this simple concept.
> .


Not sure why it's so difficult for you to grasp this, but yes an ebike does have a motor and is considered an electric bicycle. Do you call a Telsa a motor car or an electric car?



og-mtb said:


> You didn't answer the simple question that I posed:
> 
> Why do you keep spreading so much disinformation?


Good Morning my Friend og-mtb:thumbsup:! What a fine morning it is! Why can't you admit just how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motor bicycle or moped to electric bicycle?
It's not my fault they use the wrong verbage! Give it time, things will change!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> Not sure why it's so difficult for you to grasp this, but yes an ebike does have a motor and is considered an electric bicycle. Do you call a Telsa a motor car or an electric car?
> 
> Good Morning my Friend og-mtb:thumbsup:! What a fine morning it is! Why can't you admit just how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motor bicycle or moped to electric bicycle?
> It's not my fault they use the wrong verbage! Give it time, things will change!


 It's inevitable? Hmmm, heard that one before. The term you are grasping for is" motorized" That's how MA defines them. Doesn't matter what you call or label them. Does it have a motor? Things will change how? Just cuz? Good luck with that.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> Do you call a Telsa a motor car or an electric car?


Too funny. Both are motorized vehicles because they have motors, your distinction doesn't matter in this analogy or in bicycles.

Good analogy to refute your point though; electric cars are not allowed anywhere that petrol cars aren't. It seems in cars the energy source behind the motor is irrelevant, it's having a motor that matters. I'd probably avoid cars when defending why a bicycle with a motor is not motorized.



mtbbiker said:


> Why can't you admit just how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motor bicycle or moped to electric bicycle?


This sentence needs a verb. It will still be nonsense when you supply one, but at least it will be semi-intelligible nonsense. For my part, I'm excited to hear the tense of the verb... Do you think this has already happened, or will happen in the future?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> Do you call a Telsa a motor car or an electric car?


Both, it has a motor that's fueled by electricity. What does that matter?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Why can't you admit just how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motor bicycle or moped to electric bicycle?


Answering a question with another question is simply another dodge on your part.

I can't admit how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motorized vehicle (not motor bike) or moped to electric motor bicycle is because, as demonstrated above, it hasn't been a big deal for trail access.

That false claim is just another example of the disinformation that you continue to spread.

Again, why do you do that? What do you hope to accomplish by repeatedly lying?


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I knew this thread would be a prick-waving contest.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Harryman said:


> The will of the people? Have any of these ebike laws been included on a ballot for a public vote? What percentage of the public in any of the states with the Class 1-3 laws even know they exist? These laws are like all the other minor legislative amendments made every day in that if they don't affect you directly, you wouldn't know about.


People vote in representitives to represent in a democracy like the United States. The representitives are, in theory, enacting the will of the people by making the logical decisions based on public comment or just plain old common sense. These representitives have a mandate to serve the public's best interest or they will be voted out. Contrast that with the Federal Law that bans eBikes, which was made by Joe L. Meade, whom does not represent the people as he was appointed. The Federal law, which has a tremendously larger effect on the population, was decided without public comment nor any way for the public to correct this injustice through voting. The Federal law banning eBikes from nonmotorized trails and pathways was formed tyrannically, where the state and local laws allowing eBikes on trails and pathways were formed democratically, through the will of the people.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

og-mtb said:


> I can't admit how big changing the legal definition of an ebike from motorized vehicle (not motor bike) or moped to electric motor bicycle is because, as demonstrated above, it hasn't been a big deal for trail access.


I'd still like to know the tense he was attempting to use... Is he saying that's happened, because it hasn't, or is he saying it will happen - which it won't, at least not on a universal basis. Either way, it's a moot point.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

leeboh said:


> It's inevitable? Hmmm, heard that one before. The term you are grasping for is" motorized" That's how MA defines them. Doesn't matter what you call or label them. Does it have a motor? Things will change how? Just cuz? Good luck with that.


Almost 30 times as much land in the Forest Service as the entire state of Massachusetts; I'm pretty sure that after finding a proper motorized vehicle classification for eBikes the NFS could open a little more of this. Maybe the BLM too.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

figofspee said:


> People vote in representitives to represent in a democracy like the United States. The representitives are in theory enacting the will of the people by making the logical decisions bas ed on public comment or juse plain old common sense. These representitives have a mandate to serve the public's best interest or they will be voted out. Contrast that with the Federal Law that bans eBikes, which was made by Joe L. Meade whom does not represent the people as he was appointed, which was decided without public comment nor any way for the public to correct this injustice through voting. The Federal law banning eBikes from nonmotorized trails and pathways was formed tyrannically, where the state and local laws allowing eBikes on trails and pathways were formed democratically through the will of the people.


Judges are appointed. It seems that our founding fathers believed that while laws should be created through representation, they should be interpreted and enacted by appointed officials independent of public opinion. In this case you are not changing laws but interpreting them. I can't believe I had to type that out.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

TheDwayyo said:


> J I can't believe I had to type that out.


Too much tin foil hat, not enough civics class.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

TheDwayyo said:


> Judges are appointed. It seems that our founding fathers believed that while laws should be created through representation, they should be interpreted and enacted by appointed officials independent of public opinion. In this case you are not changing laws but interpreting them. I can't believe I had to type that out.


Joe works for the Forest Service. Did you think I was talking about a Judge?


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

figofspee said:


> People vote in representitives to represent in a democracy like the United States. The representitives are, in theory, enacting the will of the people by making the logical decisions based on public comment or just plain old common sense. These representitives have a mandate to serve the public's best interest or they will be voted out. Contrast that with the Federal Law that bans eBikes, which was made by Joe L. Meade, whom does not represent the people as he was appointed. The Federal law, which has a tremendously larger effect on the population, was decided without public comment nor any way for the public to correct this injustice through voting. The Federal law banning eBikes from nonmotorized trails and pathways was formed tyrannically, where the state and local laws allowing eBikes on trails and pathways were formed democratically, through the will of the people.


This nonsense has already been addressed.

https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/where-ride-ebikes-usa-major-issues-1099253.html#post14010367

You need to find someone that can help you understand the information that was shared in that reply.

Have that person spend extra time with you on this part:

"Furthermore, you should read about the nondelegation doctrine, enabling legislation and the APA."


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

figofspee said:


> People vote in representitives to represent in a democracy like the United States.


The United States is a constitutional republic not a democracy. Stop posting your special brand of stupid please.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

og-mtb said:


> This nonsense has already been addressed.
> 
> https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/where-ride-ebikes-usa-major-issues-1099253.html#post14010367
> 
> ...


It has been responded too in the same way chronic MTBR posters respond to things they can't handle. Ad hominem, attacking the source, and deflection are a method of conceding the argument while appearing to still be participating.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Everybody remember when we all voted on whether mountain bikes would be allowed on trails? And those other votes we all took part in regarding access for hikers, horses, snowmobiles, ATVs, UTVs, dirt bikes and 4X4's? E-bikers are just asking to be treated the same way as everyone else, ya bunch of tyrants!


Derrrr.....


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## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

And Joe is well within his authority to determine that under existing FS TMR ebikes are motorized. Lobby your Congress members to change that.

Do you find no irony in claiming the "grassroots" will of the people from the lobbying efforts of People for Bikes?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Everybody remember when we all voted on whether mountain bikes would be allowed on trails? And those other votes we all took part in regarding access for hikers, horses, snowmobiles, ATVs, UTVs, dirt bikes and 4X4's? E-bikers are just asking to be treated the same way as everyone else, ya bunch of tyrants!
> 
> Derrrr.....


Good point, the Forest Service tyrannically banned bikes from Wilderness trails in 1984 in the same way that they banned eBikes from non-motor-vehicle trails and pathways. Unsurprisingly, many many Mt bikers accept that unilateral power move.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Velocipedist said:


> And Joe is well within his authority to determine that under existing FS TMR ebikes are motorized. Lobby your Congress members to change that.
> 
> Do you find no irony in claiming the "grassroots" will of the people from the lobbying efforts of People for Bikes?


Of course, lobbying Congress is a good course of action.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

figofspee - please educate yourself on the land management process before you post again. Anything further along these lines from you will be consider trolling and you will get a 7 day time out.

mtbbiker - you are on thin ice as well since you refuse to acknowledge some basic facts about the laws that govern trail access and bike definitions.

Show some reason.


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