# XC friendly doubles and table tops



## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

Hey All, we are trying to get set up for a trail assessment regarding the pre-app for the rtp grants.

We have a county park stacked loop with the last 'advanced' loop to work within. We say advanced but advanced only comparison to the other beginner and intermediate stacked loops.

The topography is low elevation and hilly, probably 300'-400' combined elevation for that portion of the property. Not a lot of natural features such as rock.

We need to stay within cross country perimeters but are looking to differentiate the 'advanced' part of the network with the rest of the trails (stacked loops) as well as differentiate between another nearby similar topographic county park. Ideally, we would like to have noticeable difference between the two parks and not duplicate.

We have a few ideas\plans in place all ready but are looking for pics or video of other IMBA spec, cross country trails that successfully incorporated flow, pump and jump feel to portions of trail. Specifically, examples of cross country friendly doubles and table tops.

Also, yes a machine(s) will be used.

Thanks


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## robbiexor (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm also interested in this topic. Congrats on being cleared to do this. I am lobbying hard in our org to adopt the idea of building some new trails in this way.


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

I wouldn't say we are cleared yet. Ultimately, priority one is to get awarded the grant and rebuild, reroute and fix damaged sections of the existing trail. Reclaiming the old unused trail back to a natural forest look. Some old undamaged trail will be used while a lot of new trail will be put in.

The pictures and video will be for the county park\land manager to illustrate what we are proposing in the assessment and final grant project. The contractor would also use the examples for trail construction.


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## casey (Jan 12, 2004)

Here's some to get you started. They may be more than you're looking for but they may trigger some ideas as well. Good luck!

Whoops Trail, Bend, OR: Local Motion on Vimeo

Rock Drop trail, Sandy, OR: Sandy Ridge Trail "Rock Drop" - YouTube
Search on Youtube/Vimeo for Sandy Ridge Trails and you'll see videos of other trails in the Sandy Ridge System like Hide & Seek, Little Monkey, Quid Pro Flow and more.

Arcylon Trail, Park City, UT: 29er Krispy at Arcylon - YouTube

This might be a little more than you're looking for: Universal Klister


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

Casey, Arcylon Trail is getting closer. We would have to take out the bigger features and go with the smaller stuff in between. Another words take out the 'fun' and add in xc racing kits, Strava and weight weenies. Seriously fun looking trail.

I guess, anther way to look at it would be considering a pump track incorporated into 8 miles of trail. Except we wouldn't bring in the dirt we would use the existing land contours and harvest the dirt straight along side the trail.


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## robbiexor (Aug 22, 2011)

The "downhill' trails in Red Wing MN might be along the lines of what you're thinking. There are other videos out there if you search Red Wing Dowhnhill, too. This video has a few good examples of doubles that can be jumped or rolled.


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## benjaminj (Mar 16, 2009)

These have been built by the US Forest Service on Corral Trail here in Tahoe.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I would say that the stuff on my local trails is mostly xc-friendly. I ride it on an XC FS bike and only feel like one of the obstacles is too big for the bike (not included in either vid).






on-the-bike shots of our flow trail






off-the-bike shots of mostly the same trail. our video recording this day was interrupted by some n00b who hurt himself on the earlier mentioned obstacle that's a bit too big for xc bikes. had to take him to the ER. the wooden bridge drop-to-tranny is just prior to that obstacle. we have a small xc-friendly tabletop and a wall ride on this trail, too.

I'm on the yellow bike. my buddy rides a Giant Reign and uses a full face helmet and armor because he goes bigger and faster than I do on the same stuff.

These trails were designed by dburatti, btw.


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

benjaminj said:


> These have been built by the US Forest Service on Corral Trail here in Tahoe.


Nice, did the FS have to bring in dirt or was it dug from off the side of the trails?


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

NateHawk said:


> I would say that the stuff on my local trails is mostly xc-friendly. I ride it on an XC FS bike and only feel like one of the obstacles is too big for the bike (not included in either vid).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is good stuff as well. Keep it coming, need to build up enough material to present to a county park staff. Thx


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## benjaminj (Mar 16, 2009)

dhouskee said:


> Nice, did the FS have to bring in dirt or was it dug from off the side of the trails?


Just saw this - there is no import on dirt, cut and fill is balanced.


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## oilerfan30 (Apr 20, 2005)

Check out Half Nelson in Squamish.

Half Nelson - Squamish's new 3km downhill pumptrack - Pinkbike

It could be ridden on a rigid bike, or can be ripped on a downhill bike. Jumps are fun, flowy and all rollable for the non-jumping riders. Even if you aren't jumping the trail, it has a ton of flow. Basically, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would ride this trail and not have fun, from pros to beginners.


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

oilerfan30 said:


> Check out Half Nelson in Squamish.
> 
> It could be ridden on a rigid bike, or can be ripped on a downhill bike. Jumps are fun, flowy and all rollable for the non-jumping riders. Even if you aren't jumping the trail, it has a ton of flow. Basically, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would ride this trail and not have fun, from pros to beginners.


Definitely looks fun. This particular park has much less elevation change and smaller machines. Just considering the park staff and something with even lower risk and low skill...we ended up showing them this video:

Alpine Bike Parks - Design and Build Contractor - Bike Parks and Trail Development - Media







We attended one of the classes where Alpine Bike Parks was part of the class at the Santa Fe IMBA Summit and thought this video should give park staff a warm fuzzy feeling and not scare them off. We needed to get them comfortable with the idea and then, if we are awarded the grant, see how we can work with a contractor. We even considered looking for a second contractor for just the 'flow' 'xc friendly' parts of the trail. It's all still up in the preliminary phase. We'll see....


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## oilerfan30 (Apr 20, 2005)

Awesome! Good luck and let us know how it goes!


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Relevant pic: XC rider at WCPT :









The key to making jumps "friendly" to xc riders or just non-jumping riders generally is to use a "roller table" , "monster roller" or "dome/cap/lid" design.










I drew this one at 20 feet, but the same principle would apply to 10 feet or 15 foot gap. 
A lot of DJ/DH/bmx guys are used to seeing a hard edge lip to launch off of. Some of them mistakenly think that if you round off the corners, then you can't launch. Wrong. Just like BMX race tracks have rounded corners, the key is that you take off lower down on the face of the jump. The lip is still there. It is just that there's a lid/dome as well. This helps non-jumping riders ride up onto the top, across, and down.


















This is basically a BMX box jump with a dome lid on it.









Here's a skateboard version of it. (The closest transition with the roll-over dome).









Legendary BMX rider Brian Foster "scrubbing" over a monster roller:









Behind the bikes.... our tilted roller-table.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Some pics I took at Keystone.

A table, rough style with logs:

















Kestone, optional table, off to the side of the trail:









Unmaintained jump at Vail. (On DH bikes, people aren't worried about jumps being smooth. For XC riders, you'd want to do more work....)


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## dhouskee (Oct 20, 2007)

Cmc, thanks for all the information. A lot of good info. I especially like the drawn illustrations. You can pretty much size them however you want. It really comes down to using wedges...either for the lip or the transition. Thx.


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## ATown17 (Nov 6, 2012)

Check out Brown Wave at FATS in Augusta. I can't post links yet...


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

We're working on a new section of trail in Oneonta, NY right now that's chock full of jumps of various sizes. The biggest one is a 4' down by 18' out step down. Those measurements are to the sweet spot of the landing, but coming up short really has no penalty; nor does just rolling the whole thing.

The section of the trail we're working on today is a 5' wide full bench cut, hand dug, with some doubles and rollers in there. We're building the whole trail to be bi-directional, and every descent has opportunities to get your wheels off the ground. I'll post some photos and videos up once we get more done and get out for a test-ride.


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## mtbty (Jun 15, 2012)

New East Tiger Summit trail - YouTube


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

I came across this photo I took at Winter Park this summer, and I thought it might help this thread.

It's not dirt . . . . but this kicker / launch ramp is a good example of how to use a big radius and make a jump low and long for DH bikes. Sometimes ramps don't even have a consistent radius. They have some curve at the bottom, but then flatten out, the way motocross jumps do. It needs to be long because when a rider is at high speed the time you spend riding up the jump is shortened. Even when you pre-load the suspension, you want time for it to rebound out and for the rider to do an appropriate boost.










For a DH/FR run, you should not build a launch ramp the same way skateboarders do. Like this:


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

*Great video PinkBike*

Here's a stellar link to a PB video/and a link to the page. Check out the jumps they've got, and are hitting on their 29er hartdails. WAHOO!

Video: Trails For All Seasons - A Trail Builder's Success Story - Pinkbike

http://www.pinkbike.com/v/288243/l/

Trails for all Seasons on Pinkbike


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