# The Juicy brake turkey warble/vibration MEGA THREAD



## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

I figured since this problem is so widespread it deserved its own thread. So if anyone has this problem post up here. Hopefully we can find a real cause/solution to this problem.

So here's the info we have on the problem:

*Usually only the rear brake makes a loud squealing noise, that may sound like a turkey warbling. 

*The noise is accompanied by a vibration that can be felt throughout the bike, including the saddle and handlebars. 

*The brake works fine despite the terrible noise.

*Some people have done nothing and the problem eventually cleared itself up. Possibly from breaking in of the pads and rotor. Others have had no luck after the brakes should have broken in.

*Some people have cleaned, sanded, or replaced their brake pads and the problem cleared up. Others have done all of the above to no avail.

*Replacing the rotors with the same avid rotor, another brand rotor, or another size rotor has fixed the problem for some, but not all.

*Anti-squeal brake spray for cars has solved the problem for some, but many do not recommend this treatment because it supposedly contaminates the pads.

This is all I can think of off the top of my head. Let me know what you guys can come up with and I'll add it to this post. Hopefully we can come up with a solution!


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

johnniewalker85 said:


> *Anti-squeal brake spray for cars has solved the problem for some, but many do not recommend this treatment because it supposedly contaminates the pads.


Anti-squeal goes on the back of the pad it does not contaminate the pads braking area. :thumbsup:


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## Dunc (Jun 9, 2005)

Anyone shim out the calipers a little????? Looking at my rotors I see an 1/8" or less of space with no pad contact on the outside rotor surface and on the inside I see that the pad contact area is off the disk and on the spokes?arms? of the disk by about the same. Under regular braking no problems but under hard brakes I get the pulse/grab. Maybe the pad angles in on hard brakes and the pulse is when it strikes the spokes holding the disk??
I don't know? should be this difficult to get some smooth brakes!
Yes new g2 rotors and new pads are on it. Brake bleed done as well.


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## nubcake (Nov 16, 2007)

if your getting this problem, call avid. We have had a couple customers come through our shop with this problem and everytime avid has made it right by either replacing the rotor or in some cases the entire brake system


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2008)

I had probs both front and rear and nothing would stop it untill after a year of messing around with washers, changing the bolts to stainless steel etc I found these pads. The name may be daft but they worked for me. Cheap and silent.
One other thing, although copper grease dose go on the back of the pads, the original Avid pads have holes in the backing of the pads and it WILL work through to the pad. I found out!


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## rex_quando (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm having the turkey trouble with my rear avid juicy 5. So far I've tried sanding the pads, cleaning the rotor, and re-calibrating them (loosen mounting bolts, sqeeze the brake lever and re-tighten), to no avail. Sometimes it goes away but always comes back. I've noticed a very slight warp in the rotor which I suspect is the source of the problem. I'm going to call avid as sugested above and see what happens. 

One other thing I notice which may or may not be related--my casette wobbles quite a bit as the whell turns, which I've read is fairly normal, but I wonder if it contributes to the apparent rotor warp. I wonder this because when I remove the rotor and lay it on a flat surface I see no warp, I can only see it when I peer down the rotor as it's spinning on the wheel, in relation to the pads. Just a thought but I wonder if there is a connection here--I also wonder this because it seems to be more common on the rear wheel.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Rex that's a good point. But could it be that everyone who has the warble is having it because of wobble in the rear hub?


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## PUBCRAWL (Feb 9, 2007)

*For what it's worth*.

The Juicy 7's (2007) on both my wife's and my bike developed the hated "turkey gobble" after about 6 months of riding on both the front and back brakes.

BOTH brakes were fixed after doing the following:
- bleeding the system.
- changing the rotors to non-Avid (one has Galfer and the other Hayes)
- changing the pads (Galfer on the Galfer rotors and Avid organics on the Hayes)

A year later...
we both still have no noise issues and great braking.


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

I just got some superstar components pads for my carbons (although i didn't have the turkey thing going on, i did have some noise back there), and they are completely silent after a few rides! They are real cheap too, and have much better modulation than the stock avid pads


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## seven1816 (Oct 19, 2007)

The turkey comes and goes on my 08 Juicy 7's, all standard aint touched a thing, one day it's there one day it aint.
Braking is fine so it doesn't bother me, it's a relatively low sounding squeal, if it was real high pitch I would be doing something about it sharpish.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

After about probably 80miles - my Juicy 5's (185/160) are working AMAZING!! Initally they were a little bit noisier, but nothing out of the ordinary. A hint of squeak once in a while on the front if there's a bit of moisture. Otherwise very quiet and amazingly efficient and powerful. I'm very satisfied with my J5's!! :thumbsup:

(check out this vid from the collective on the saint brakes http://www.thecollectivefilm.com/provingground/provingground_qt.html 
- check out towards the end when Vanderham does his run - that is way noisier than my ever were... just to put in perspective)....


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

MI_canuck said:


> After about probably 80miles - my Juicy 5's (185/160) are working AMAZING!! Initally they were a little bit noisier, but nothing out of the ordinary. A hint of squeak once in a while on the front if there's a bit of moisture. Otherwise very quiet and amazingly efficient and powerful. I'm very satisfied with my J5's!! :thumbsup:
> 
> (check out this vid from the collective on the saint brakes http://www.thecollectivefilm.com/provingground/provingground_qt.html
> - check out towards the end when Vanderham does his run - that is way noisier than my ever were... just to put in perspective)....


My Juicy 3s are about as noisy or maybe more noisy than the ones in the video. Still haven't figured out a fix. I might try to ride them and see if the break in.


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## ohpossum (Dec 19, 2003)

Make sure one of the pistons isn't sticking in the caliper. I've found that J7s work best when the rotor isn't deflected at all. Over time, a piston will start to get a little sticky in the caliper and not move as much as the opposite piston. This results in the rotor being deflected over to the "sticky" side and after a short time, uneven pad wear. Once the pads start to wear at an angle, it goes bad quickly. New pads fix the problem temporarily, but it doesn't take long for the new pads to wear at an angle if the piston is still sticky.

So, pull the pads out and squeeze the lever a few times. Look to see if one of the pistons is moving more than the other. If one is sticky, hold the other piston in it's bore with a tire-lever or screwdriver and pump the lever, forcing the sticky piston out. Make sure to not push it completely out of the caliper. I drip a couple drops of DOT fluid where the piston meets the caliper. Push the piston back in and repeat until both pistons are moving equally. 

op


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## ryan123 (Jun 15, 2004)

You need a couple of small washers to bring the caliper out/up a bit. The cause is from the brake pads grabbing the rotor arms slightly, you need to get the pads rubbing the disc outer only. Braking on the rotor arms gives u the 'gobble' noise. Check the wear on your rotors, if its going down the arms slightly, get it up using washers


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## clearcreek (Oct 10, 2005)

*I think it's toe-in*

I'm convinced this is a simple pad toe-in problem. In 20 months and 1.5k miles on a pair of J7s with G2 rotors I've had the warble 4 or 5 times, front or rear seemingly equal. For me the problem has occurred 100% of the time immediately or soon after pulling and re-installing the pads or re-centering to correct for a dragging pad.

The first time it occurred I tried many of the standard fixes people use; cleaning and sanding pads, shimming the caliper out, sanding rotor, specing the installation. All to no avail, still the warble. Then I happened to do a wheel stand on steep step-up and on the next downhill no more Howl ... permanently. What had happened?

I believe installing pads or spreading them to realign can some times inadvertently cause them to be cocked on the centering pin. This causes incorrect toe-in and incomplete contact with the piston and hence the Howl. If the pad is cocked with the leading edge away from the piston normal braking corrects the issue. if the pad is cocked with the trailing edge away from the piston, normal braking continues to pull it away and the Howl persists.

The wheel stand on an incline put reverse pressure on the rotors and settled the pads onto the piston. Since that first time I have been able to silence the warble immediately 100% of the time by firmly applying the offending brake and rotating the wheel backward and forward lightly to settle the pad in. These fixes have all been permanent silence for me until I fiddled with the brake set-up for one reason or other.

This accounts for why all of the fixes people use work or don't in a seemingly random manner. All of them involve operations that can inadvertently cause or correct the pad toe-in issue; sometimes you fix it, some times you cause it.

Shane


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## PUBCRAWL (Feb 9, 2007)

ryan123 said:


> You need a couple of small washers to bring the caliper out/up a bit. The cause is from the brake pads grabbing the rotor arms slightly, you need to get the pads rubbing the disc outer only. Braking on the rotor arms gives u the 'gobble' noise. Check the wear on your rotors, if its going down the arms slightly, get it up using washers


I don't think this is the cause of the Gobble noise.
I've checked all the rotors on our two bikes for this and it was *NOT* an issue as the pads made perfect contact with the rotors. 
Changing the rotors was the only cure that worked for me.

Further to this, a friend of mine is running Juicys with Shimano rotors (with a much narrower braking surface that Avids) has his pads making contact with the rotor arms... 
*no noise*.


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

So to insure that the back of the pads are true with the pistons, lightly apply the brake and push the bike forwards and backwards before you align the caliper to the rotor. What happens when the pad material is uneven-do the pads need to be replaced?


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## chris_nor_cal (Sep 20, 2005)

HATE THEM. They're on ebay now. I'm getting real brakes like formula


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## brianyzf (Jul 17, 2007)

I have Avid Juicy 5's and I have the honking noise intermittently. It used to happen on every ride, usually about a mile or so in. But I only get the noise when I'm NOT braking. If I lightly pull on the rear brake lever it stops but as soon as I release it the noise comes back. So I started cleaning my rotors with MEK after every ride and now I only get the noise occasionally and not even for the whole ride. I read in Mountain Bike Action magazine that Kool Stop pads will help eliminate the noise. So I priced Kool Stop pads and they are around $15 or so, if I remember right. Compare that to replacement Avid pads at around $3 and for 5 times as much it should cure the problem. I haven't gotten them yet because, as I said, the problem has gotten much better. I'm probably going to just keep riding with things as they are as long as the problem doesn't get any worse.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

Just installed Juicy Three's and my rear brake is making the "gobble" noise as well as vibrating my entire bike when I apply a lot of pressure to it. I've done what everyone else has done including; clean the rotors and pads, reposition the caliper, and make sure the rotor is straight and tightly secured to the hub. Each of these solutions worked for about 1 mile of riding then the annoyance came back.

Has anyone found a 100% effective solution to this problem, ASIDE from buying entirely new brakes? I like the way the Juicys feel and look and I got a good price on them.


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## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

My first AVID Juicy brakes were the 5's and they were constantly suffering from sticky pistons.
replaced them with JUICY 7 and NEVER had any issues. The only time I had a squeal was in very humid conditions and during maybe a week of brake in time.
Got Juicy LE carbon now and still no issues...What kind of bikes 'yall have?
Maybe if the rear end is not stiff enough you can't get them adjusted properly.
Just my 2 cents anyways.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

I have brand new (maybe the problem is the break-in period) Juicy Three's on a hardtail ironhorse frame. Talked to the local bike shop and they said to give them a few more good rides and see if they break-in and the noise goes away.


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## yater (Nov 3, 2006)

Why buy juicies when they all seem to have this problem? My mono mini pros have been perfect from day one. I'm sure formulas would be the same.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

Because for the front and rear handle, caliper and rotor it cost me 120$. That was less than the mechanical discs had on before. Like I said before, I like the look and feel of the Juicys. I'm also a pretty big SRAM fan. Anyhow, I've got a few friends with Juicys and the guys at the bike shop who ride them who all have said they never experienced this. Odd...


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

Magura says that noise and vibration may be attributed to trapped air in the caliper and Hayes states that noise/vibration may be caused by a dirty or non-uniform (fork or frame) surface that the caliper or its adapter mounts to. So first try bleeding the brake. And if that does not work, next have your LBS face your IS brake mounting tabs on your frame. Forks do not seem to suffer from the vibration because their lowers are casted with much tighter and more consistent tolerances.


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## DaveMW (May 20, 2008)

I have a set of Juicy's on my 08 stumpjumper... they tend to gobble after a long descent then have a chance to cool.

I'm assuming its due to build up on the rotor after heating to sizzling temperatures then cooling. the heat between the pads and rotors can sometimes cause a glaze effect that tends to cause fade. when the rotors cool is when you start to get the sequel. I've also noticed that i can usually get it to stop after a few hard brakes when the rotors are squealing,


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*I wonder*

I wonder if anyone with BB7s has this problem? BB7s and Juicy 7s use the same pads. But not the same rotors. The rotors for the BB7s are quite a bit thicker.

I have been running the J7s for about 3 years now on 2 bikes. On my Giant NRS, no noise, running the 6" rotors. On my Ventana X-5 running the 7" rotors, I never had bad noise until I moved back to the west coast. I would occasionally get the turkey warble. But, not big deal, they still seemed to stop me effectively.

But, moving out to Monterey....the rear brake on my X-5 has been all kinds of trouble. While in Downieville, it sounded like a cross between an angry moose and an angry goose. Braking was absolutely not effective and I could feel it resonate through the entire frame of the bike. On the front, at times it feels as if the pads are popping over each of the slots in the rotors...alternately grabbing and not when it hits a slot, but no real decrement to braking performance.

As the back brake on the X-5 was worse, I have tried all kinds of things. Emery cloth to the pads and rotors. Shimming. Torquing to the torque specs. Plastic washers. The only thing that seems to help thus far has been organic pads. Still noisy when it gets dusty, but not as bad and it retains most of the braking performance.

For my problems, my theory is this: Vibration. If you treat the caliper, rotor, hub, and rear swingarm/triangle as a spring/mass system...it will have certain natural frequencies in which resonance occurs. Throw in some contaminants on the pads, and you just may happen to hit that natural frequency easier. The same pads and rotor design on both of my bikes, but one makes the noise and one doesn't. The only difference are the spring/mass characteristics of the system as a whole because one has the 6" rotor, the other a 7" rotor, they both have the same rear hub, but the swingarms are vastly different.

I have plenty of friends running the BB7s. None seem to share my problems. And, if you look at the rotors that come with the BB7s as opposed to the J7s, the BB7s look much more robust. And heavier...giving it a different frequency at which resonance occurs, partly due to the mass alone.

I am going to try a 6" rotor on the back of my X-5 this weekend. After that, maybe a BB7 rotor...then maybe I'll try some Galfer pads and/or thier rotor.


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## onbelaydave (May 10, 2006)

*I've about had it*

After 2 yrs of constantly re-sanding the pads/changing pads, re- setting the alignment, tightening everything, my rear brake squeals like a stuck pig after 80-100 miles. Every time I think I've cured it, it comes back, in a couple of rides.

I've never had a problem in the front, only the rear. :madman:

2006 J-7's with the Polygon rotor.


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## onbelaydave (May 10, 2006)

*Okay, inspired by the tread, I threw some washers on tonight.*



onbelaydave said:


> After 2 yrs of constantly re-sanding the pads/changing pads, re- setting the alignment, tightening everything, my rear brake squeals like a stuck pig after 80-100 miles. Every time I think I've cured it, it comes back, in a couple of rides.
> 
> I've never had a problem in the front, only the rear. :madman:
> 
> 2006 J-7's with the Polygon rotor.


I noticed just a "very" slightly different wear pattern front to back and stuck ~ 3/32" worth of washers under the rear CPS mount and re-aligned as usual.

The rear is now the quietest, smoothest it has ever felt; better than the front for now. One finger/ 4 oz pressure to lockup/skid the rear tire. I took it out for a short test ride, re-bedding the pads with about 50- 60 stops. Only time will tell.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

I believe the nasty vibe comes from the pad engaging the rotor out of alignment. The manual for J7's says to align by clamping the brakes then tightening the CPS bolts. I've noticed that this does not guaranty the caliper is aligned. 

I believe it's important to visually align by looking at through the top opening of the caliper first, then clamp down on the brakes and tighten the bolts.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

HTail said:


> I believe the nasty vibe comes from the pad engaging the rotor out of alignment. The manual for J7's says to align by clamping the brakes then tightening the CPS bolts. I've noticed that this does not guaranty the caliper is aligned.
> 
> I believe it's important to visually align by looking at through the top opening of the caliper first, then clamp down on the brakes and tighten the bolts.


I've tried basically every adjustment I could. still the same problem. I even took off the caliper and sanded the frame where the caliper mounts to the bike. still the same problem. I went to a LBS and they said the pads must be contaminated, even thought I've never touched them and I cleaned the rotors and pads with alcohol. They looked at me like I was crazy and they'd never heard of the problem. They basically just told me to bring the bike in and offered to sell me pads for $22 a set.

If I bring the bike in they'll probably tell me to replace the pads and/or rotor so I'll probably be like $70-$80 in by then. I might as well just get BB7s or something for that money.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

had a slight gobble develop on the last ride on my J5's... so before today's ride loosened the caliper bolts, had a buddy apply the brake lever and hold it, while I retightened the caliper bolts... went on a good ride today... quiet as can be... I guess I'm in the minority but I'm loving my Avids... one figure braking, good modulation, technical descents in full control. This method to align the caliper (shown in the Avid user manual - which you can download the pdf from their site) seemed to work great for me and I haven't even changed pads (I do like the braking power the stock sintered pads provide, although might try some EBC green or red in the future). Overall quite satisfied w/ my J5's :thumbsup:

peace


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## drbarky (May 16, 2008)

I've been chasing the same brake ghost as many of you. I've changed pads, realigned, sanded, beveled etc w/o any success. It is driving me crazy, and puts a damper on my rides. I'm ready to try the BB's--are there any real drawbacks to the BB's?


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## CHUMBAevo (Jul 26, 2006)

In my experience, proper alignment (make sure you can see light pass through both sides of the rotor) along with replacing the pads and rotors should usually solve most issues.


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## SAR13 (Jul 8, 2008)

Same turkey warble coming form my '08 575 w/J5s. First bike with discs so I am a bit clueless.
Probably about 8 rides on it so far and while it is getting a little better it is still annoying. I have tried realigning the caliper, cleaning the rotor w/alcohol and squeezing the brakes while rolling the bike backwards. No luck. I am ready to try sanding the pads. What grit paper are folks using?
Also, Is it a problem to have the bike upside-down to remove the rear tire? I have read that this isn't great for disc brakes.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

SAR13 said:


> Same turkey warble coming form my '08 575 w/J5s. First bike with discs so I am a bit clueless.
> Probably about 8 rides on it so far and while it is getting a little better it is still annoying. I have tried realigning the caliper, cleaning the rotor w/alcohol and squeezing the brakes while rolling the bike backwards. No luck. I am ready to try sanding the pads. What grit paper are folks using?
> Also, Is it a problem to have the bike upside-down to remove the rear tire? I have read that this isn't great for disc brakes.


Slap the pad on the cement and sand in a figure eight till deglazed. :thumbsup:

Yes you can turn your bike up side nwod. 

Galfer *red* pads are awesome. :cornut:

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14...-Pads/Galfer-Semi-Metallic-Brake-Pads-Red.htm


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

I had the same issue with my J5's. I didn't even mind the turkey warble, it was the violent vibration that worried me. I switched to some Shimano rotors, and all problems immediately went away. I've since switched to the newer Avid rotors and all is still well. 

I'd try swapping rotors or wheels with another bike and see how that works. It's an easy thing to check.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

dogonfr said:


> Galfer *red* pads are awesome. :cornut:
> 
> http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14...-Pads/Galfer-Semi-Metallic-Brake-Pads-Red.htm


Just looked at the Galfer pads from your link they don't come with springs so my guess the stock Avid springs are ok to use with the Galfer pads?


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

XC Mike said:


> Just looked at the Galfer pads from your link they don't come with springs so my guess the stock Avid springs are ok to use with the Galfer pads?


That is correct. :cornut:


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

I have '07 Juicy 7's on my GF HiFi. 

At about 200 miles the rear brake started howling. Cleaning/sanding only helped for a few miles. I changed the pads to Kool Stop's and all was well for the next 500 miles.

Avid organic, Kool Stop, Galfer red and green pads, sanding/cleaning pads/rotor did not help this time. I switched the rear rotor to a Galfer wave rotor and I am using Galfer red pads (the green were too grabby for my taste). Quiet as can be for now after about 30 miles. Time will tell.

FWIW, the caliper and rotor have always been properly aligned and torqued. Suspension pivots are not worn and are properly torqued.


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## drbarky (May 16, 2008)

I just spoke Tech Support at SRAM and they were very willing to try and help. They said that they will send out a new rotor and pad(no charge). They wouldn't send them directly to me, but to any SRAM dealer, whether you bought it there or not. So, I called the shop I bought it at, and they will call Tech Support and request the rotor/pads. The gal I spoke w/ said that if the rotor is "out of spec" at all, it can set up this problem. They have a new rotor she said. . The tech number I used is 312-664-8800. I hope this switch in rotor and pads helps, me and everyone else. I have a 185mm Avid CSG2 rotor currently.


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## sixate (Feb 27, 2008)

I have Juicy 5's and they've always been noisy. I've had every issue stated in this thread, until last week when I changed my rotors to Alligator Serration's and got some Kool Stop pads. Now they're quiet as can be and they feel like they stop better. Before, if I had to use the brakes a lot on the trail I could notice them losing stopping power. Now that isn't a problem either.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

sixate said:


> I have Juicy 5's and they've always been noisy. I've had every issue stated in this thread, until last week when I changed my rotors to Alligator Serration's and got some Kool Stop pads. Now they're quiet as can be and they feel like they stop better. Before, if I had to use the brakes a lot on the trail I could notice them losing stopping power. Now that isn't a problem either.


which Kool Stops did you get? The D270 (red backing plate), D270A (aluminum backing plate) or D270S (copper backing plate) ?

cheers


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## sixate (Feb 27, 2008)

MI_canuck said:


> which Kool Stops did you get? The D270 (red backing plate), D270A (aluminum backing plate) or D270S (copper backing plate) ?
> 
> cheers


D270's


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm going to call Avid tomorrow and see if I can get them to send me a new rotor. It's been less than a year since I bought the bike. It probably has about 100 miles on it. Most of them are me trying to break in the brakes.


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## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

johnniewalker85 said:


> I'm going to call Avid tomorrow and see if I can get them to send me a new rotor. It's been less than a year since I bought the bike. It probably has about 100 miles on it. Most of them are me trying to break in the brakes.


My experience has been thus :
I won a set of 2008 juicy carbons. I mounted them, but the rear hose was short. LBS redid the line and the brakes have totally rocked in all ways. So much so I bought a "new" set on ebay for my hardtail. Turns out they were New closeout 07 stock. I mounted these also, and I have the turkey warble in the rear sometimes also. I think it may be a rotor issue?
Hasnt bothered me alot really. Maybe there is some change to the new stuff? 
Anyone know For Sure the year of the brakes they have, not when they got them?
CDT


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## drbarky (May 16, 2008)

Well, after stumping most guys wrenching, and while waiting for SRAM to send me a new rotor/pads as noted earlier--out of sheer frustration I bought a new pair of Avid Organic pad and the shutter/squeal disappeared. I rode about 15miles last night and have not had any issues--so I'll shelve the new parts when they arrive and use them if needed. I'm thinking that the pads are a little softer so they don't set up the same vibrations. Just for others knowledge--the other pads I tried were Avid regulars, Aztec organic, Galfer Red as well and the whole realigning of the brake, sanding, cleaning etc of the rotor. The bike I'm on in is a Santa Cruz Blur LT(07/08 model) Good luck.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

well I swapped my front rotor for the back and put the back rotor in the front. The front is still quiet while the back one still howls. I'm going to try swapping the pads front to back now and take it for a spin around the neighborhood. I'll post my findings when I get back.


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## miketech1 (Jun 20, 2006)

Man I've tried everything that is posted here about the juicy's. I switched rotors just like johnniewalker85 did and same thing, warble is still in the back. I think it's time to just try formula's or hope's.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

miketech1 said:


> Man I've tried everything that is posted here about the juicy's. I switched rotors just like johnniewalker85 did and same thing, warble is still in the back. I think it's time to just try formula's or hope's.


Hayes Sstrokers are awesom brakes worth considering. :thumbsup:

http://www.spadout.com/p/hayes-stroker-trail-brake/


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

miketech1 said:


> Man I've tried everything that is posted here about the juicy's. I switched rotors just like johnniewalker85 did and same thing, warble is still in the back. I think it's time to just try formula's or hope's.


Hayes Strokers are awesom brakes worth considering. :thumbsup:

http://www.spadout.com/p/hayes-stroker-trail-brake/


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

ok guys here's an update. Hopefully good news for everyone. I swapped my rotors front to back and vise versa last night. Rode all day today and the front was still perfect while the back still howled. So I concluded the rotors were not the problem. Tonight I swapped the pads front to back and vise versa...

The front brake immediately had the same symptoms the rear previously had, while the rear was now quiet as can be. The front brake had the strange notchy-ness as if the rotor spokes were hitting the brake pad. This had previously happened on the rear when moving slowly and braking hard to stop the bike. Now fork vibrated a ton when this happened. The shreaking noise wasn't present but there were some squeaks from the brake. I assume the squealing that I had experienced in the rear was from the frame vibrating. The fork couldn't reproduce the noise because it was vibrating at a different frequency.

In short the problem seems to have been traced to the brake pads. I'll try to head to the shop tomorrow and pick up some replacement pads. I'll post an update as the whether or not new pads fix the problem.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

miketech1 said:


> Man I've tried everything that is posted here about the juicy's. I switched rotors just like johnniewalker85 did and same thing, warble is still in the back. I think it's time to just try formula's or hope's.


Try switching the pads front to back too. I found that the problem moved from the back to the front when I moved the pads back to front. I'm going to pick up some new pads and see if that solves it.

With the back pads now in the front the howling changes to a violent vibration/squeaking. A much different sound probably having to do with the different materials of the fork compared to the frame.


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## utheissen (Oct 3, 2006)

*Fixed it with fresh Organic Pads and new Disks*

I had the same problems on both brakes, front and rear.
Setup: Juicy 5 with 160mm G2/CS disks front and rear

I tried without success...
- changed to a new disk in the front (actually downsized from the larger disk) 
- changed brake pads (to the same standard AVID pads)
- sanded brake pads
- cleaned brake pads and disks with alcohol

Whenever I tried one of the above remedies it worked in the beginning but then after a decent ride (basically a short break in period) the turkeys were back.

The setup was ok, pads were sitting correctly and calipers moved fine.

I called AVID support and was pleasantly surprised: 
Brook, the support rep was very friendly and he actually listened to what I had to say. I explained what I tried so far and he told me to try their Organic Compound Brake Pads instead of the regular pads. 
He suggested starting with new pads AND new disks AND they were going to send these at no cost to my bike shop if I have them call in regarding the problem. I did not need any purchasing receipt or confirmation, they just wanted to make sure it is taken care of by one of their resellers.

So I had Jason from SUN bike shop in Milpitas call in and take care of it (these guys are great btw.) and I had everything within a few days.

After mounting everything, I did a couple good break ins down our slope and there was the gobble again. I was disappointed first but decided to give it a little longer to see what was going to happen. This was a good decision because the problems completely disappeared after the first ride. Just did like 30 miles with a couple long, steep downhills with the new setup and everything seems fine. If anything should change, I will post here and let you know.

I considered changing to a different brake manufacturer but my VERY POSITIVE experience with AVID support will keep me a loyal customer unless the problem resurfaces. :thumbsup:

Hope this helps
Uli


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

I got the same problem here.

I just installed a few days ago the BB7 185mm front and 160mm rear on my bike. The rear took about 20 miles or so to get to a point where my V-brakes were but the front just doesn't seem to cooperate. It starts to vibrate my whole bike once I start to apply a little more pressure. The Breaking power is finally there after 20 miles on the trail + another 10+ miles on the treadmill with the front brake dragging. 

I readjusted this a dozen times, I don't know what to do with it anymore. Even the bikeshop looked at it and said that I installed everything just fine. I'm about the rip that darn thing of and go back to my old reliable (V-brake)...


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

So I bought new pads. I was sure that pads were the culprit. The noise and vibration stopped until the pads got broken in slightly and then started right back up again. I guess I'm going to call Avid today.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

I thought I had mine problem all figured out, but after a short ride yesterday it came back, this time 10 fold, now the bike vibrates so violently that I don't feel comfortable riding it. I am going to take it to the shop and see if they can get replacement parts from avid.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

After contacting SRAM and every bike shop in Durango, Colorado it looks like I'm on the same page as everyone else. None of the shops have heard of this issue before and SRAM says to try organic pads. There is obviously an issue between the pads and rotors here and I don't want to keep wasting money on crap just to see if it works. The support rep from SRAM had heard of this before and said that organic pads fix the issue, which doesn't seem to be the solution according to posts on this thread, maybe they should send out free pads/rotors to those who have this problem.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

Going for record consecutive posts in one thread!

So I called SRAM back again after ever shop in town told me "tough luck, buy new parts", and they are sending new organic pads and rotors to my LBS for free under warranty. 

Kind of weird because I didn't tell anyone how long ago I bought the brakes, even though it was only a few weeks ago.

Anyway, if anyone else is interested you should call up SRAM customer support. Maybe all the calls about the same issue would catch their attention and they will do something about it.

312-664-8800


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

As I read the first 1st post in this thread, one thought came to mind. As I read further, poster #27 made the same statement. Resonance frequency. If the entire bike vibrates, Res Freq is the problem. Mis alignment of brake parts will not cause the total bike vibe. Change parts and problem _should_ sort itself out. If not, the mounting bracket locations for the brakes are the problem and the frame design is basically flawed. You might also want to look into some sort of rubber bushings for the brake mounts. I have V-brakes and I have never looked at disc mounts very closely so.... it may or may not solve your problem.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Notorious-J said:


> As I read the first 1st post in this thread, one thought came to mind. As I read further, poster #27 made the same statement. Resonance frequency. If the entire bike vibrates, Res Freq is the problem. Mis alignment of brake parts will not cause the total bike vibe. Change parts and problem _should_ sort itself out. If not, the mounting bracket locations for the brakes are the problem and the frame design is basically flawed. You might also want to look into some sort of rubber bushings for the brake mounts. I have V-brakes and I have never looked at disc mounts very closely so.... it may or may not solve your problem.


Except the problem is so wide spread across various frame types and brands. Something in the brake is vibrating to cause the frame to vibrate. The bottom line is the brake should not be vibrating.


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## daleksic (Aug 26, 2007)

I have found out that if you turn OUT the Inboard knob as far as you can and leave just enough on the outboard so that there is no rub on the caliper (rather than the 1/3 2/3 rule), it seemed to have solved my problem. Mine has just enough space on the outboard side that you can see maybe a crack of light. 

Just to make sure I'm clear..... Turn the Inboard pad (big knob) all the way out so you can see a lot of the pad.... Turn the Outboard pad (small quick adjust knob) all the way IN so that it practically disappears in the caliper, but make sure there is enough MEAT there so there is no caliper/disk rub.

The violent vibration is finally gone, and I hope its gone for good; well see the next few rides. The front has now enough braking power to lift me of my rear wheel.


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

johnniewalker85 said:


> Except the problem is so wide spread across various frame types and brands. Something in the brake is vibrating to cause the frame to vibrate. The bottom line is the brake should not be vibrating.


Yes, I see what you are getting at which why I believe it's the actual rotor material.
Maybe to eliminate/validate my theory, everyone with the problem of extreme vibration post what metal your discs AND pads are made of along with the frame. I will try to find the resonance freq's of all metals in question and come up with a solution.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Notorious-J said:


> Yes, I see what you are getting at which why I believe it's the actual rotor material.
> Maybe to eliminate/validate my theory, everyone with the problem of extreme vibration post what metal your discs AND pads are made of along with the frame. I will try to find the resonance freq's of all metals in question and come up with a solution.


My bike is 6160 aluminum hard tail frame. Rotors are the Avid clean sweep rotors and my pads are the Avid sintered metal pads.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

I tried switching the Avid G2 Clean Sweep rotors for Hayes round rotors. This seemed to solve the problem for about 1 hour, then the noise and vibration came back.

So far here is the list of unsuccessful attempts to fix this issue:
-Re-aligning calipers: FAIL
- Adding washer to set caliper further from mount: FAIL
- Sanding Brake Pads: FAIL
- Cleaning Rotors: FAIL
- Swapping Rotors: FAIL

I will leave an update when i install the new organic pads and rotors from Avid.

From all of my 'tests' I have come to conclude that the pads are most likely causing the issue, hopefully new pads of a different material will work.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

have you tried the Kool Stops (D270 - they are an organic semi-metallic I believe), or EBC green stuff (also organic I believe) ?

also wondering if the G3 rotor (from the upcoming Elixir) are available yet... might be an alternate rotor option since they should bolt right up, assuming the correct dia...

i've actually had some pretty good luck with mine ('08 J5's), doing the odd realigning of the rear caliper per Avid's procedure every 3-4 rides... i've noticed the harder i use my J5's, the quieter they become - i've got the stock sintered pads in there - major stopping power... also noticed if any bit of moisture, they'll squeal a bit - nothing too major or annoying... perhaps for some people, if they have the sintered pads and don't use much brake pressure or use the brakes hard enough (maybe because they ride mostly flat ground, or not many hills/descents) the sintereds are overkill and the organics come in handy being softer and less prone to noise (while still giving ample braking force for all but the most steep and long descents)...

Ultimates come with organic as standard... wonder if anyone with Juicy Ultimates has noise issues?


cheers


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

johnniewalker85 said:


> My bike is 6160 aluminum hard tail frame. Rotors are the Avid clean sweep rotors and my pads are the Avid sintered metal pads.


What about the rotors? Are they light-weight steel, aluminum, or other metal? I googled that question for an hour but can't find the material the rotors are cut from...


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

My J5 in the rear has been having this problem since I put it on. I'm running the stock sintered pads. Sanding both rotor and pads works only for very short times, did many caliper realignments, etc... I also noticed that it gets much quieter when I hit them hard.

I just got organic pads last night (Aztec) and a new rotor (also Aztec). I've gotten everything aligned, and will try it out tonight. I'll post the results tomorrow. My experience has been that by the end of a reasonably long ride, it will be squealing again. So, if it stays quiet, that may mean new rotor and new (organic) pads did the trick.

If not, I guess I'll have to think about replacing them with different brakes. It is really, really annoying.


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

After one ride with the new rotor and organic pads, my rear brake is silent. There is just a slight crunchy sound, like there is a little bit of sand or something on the pads. I noticed that the organic pads have less stopping power, though. SInce they are new, I figure another ride before they are completely broken in, at which time I hope they stop a little bit better. 

So, do the organics + new rotor help? I'd say yes. Another ride tonight, and I'll be sure. I'm curious if others have had luck with organic pads?


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

Avid organic pads and Hayes V6 rotors work really well, IME. Nice and quiet.


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

Good to know -- thanks MileHighMark. 

My ride today was nice and quiet. There is just a bit of crunchy sound during hard, slow speed braking (tight downhill switchbacks). I still feel a bit less power than with the stock metallic pads, though. I may just get bigger rotors -- currently running a front 180, rear 160. But, I've not tried the organic pads in the front. 

My conclusion, FWIW: Organic pads on new rotors, and careful alignment of the caliper, seem to make the horrible sounds go away. And, the braking is nice, in terms of modulation. Seems less powerful with the organic pads. All of this is in very dry conditions.

All things considered, I like my hydro xtr brakes on my other bike much better. But, I don't want to spend $500 or more on putting xtr brakes on this bike (SS 29er). Seems like I may stick with organic pads, and just go to 180/180.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

fatdave said:


> Good to know -- thanks MileHighMark.
> 
> My ride today was nice and quiet. There is just a bit of crunchy sound during hard, slow speed braking (tight downhill switchbacks). I still feel a bit less power than with the stock metallic pads, though. I may just get bigger rotors -- currently running a front 180, rear 160. But, I've not tried the organic pads in the front.
> 
> ...


The fact that you're having the noise on an SS takes the frame material out of the equation. The problem is definitely the brakes.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to call Avid on monday and hopefully get the new rotors and pads sent to me in time for my vacation.


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

Well my rear 07 J5 with Avid organic pads is starting to turn into a mating turkey again. I bled the brake and realigned the caliper around the rotor in hopes that a trapped air bubble in the caliper was causing the piston to vibrate. Unfortunately my theory was wrong. Next I will try a 04 Avid round-a-gone rotor. Then after that I will install a quiet 04 J5 brake. I will post my results tomorrow.


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## kkeith1986 (Dec 23, 2007)

*beveling the brake pad edges*

Not sure if this would work or not but try beveling the edges of the brake pads with a dremel and sanding tool. Beveling the edges of the pad will eliminate the binding of the pads because there is not a sharp edge to grab first before the whole pad grabs. This might help with the noise. This is something new they are trying in the automotive field to elimate noisy brakes and it works. (Carquest automotive brake pads are starting to come pre-beveled) I know the pads are way thinner then cars but if you are going out to buy new pads anyways then why not give it a try on the old ones first.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Beveling the pads has done nothing for me.

In an earlier post (#40), I stated that switching to a Galfer rotor and red Galfer pads had ended the noise. I now have about 60 miles on this setup and no noise yet.

I agree with the "resonance frequency" idea that the noise is a function of the entire bike setup and not just the brake system itself. 

The cure will be different for each bicycle. A change of pads fixed it for me for 500 miles. When the noise started again, nothing worked until I changed pads and the rotor.


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

*Just another Turkey Story*

I am just adding another chapter to the story- Try to endure this it does actually go somewhere.

First of all anyone that says they have heard "noise" or squeaks.... from their brakes have NEVER had the wonderful experience of the true turkey wobble or in some cases the mating sound of orca the killer whale. I have read some responses in this thread that obviously have never encountered anything more than a mere glazed rotor or maybe the singing of a damp morning dew on the rotors&#8230;. Oh no only those who have actually heard (and felt) the death cry and shudder of the moose know what I mean.

Anyway here is my experience. I was lucky enough to purchase a Trek 8900 in 98' and went right from canti's to hydraulic disc Hays with 160mm rotors, since then I have never looked back- nor ever had an issue (ok 1 warranty item in 98') with the old school 1rst generation Hays. I have learned a lot since then on how to keep them quiet- like never use brake clean spray or they will squeal like crazy - rubbing alcohol is the way to go, emery cloth to remove glaze, no oil on the pads&#8230; most of us have learned this by now but the wild turkey pays no heed- it defies all logic!

My experience is with Juicy 7's, 07's I think. I have two sets of them one set that has been on a 05 Superlight, an 07 Blur XC, and an 07 Blur LT currently and am running them 160mm in the rear and a 185mm to the front on post mounts ( was running 160mm up front on tabs before). Never even one issue- work great no squeaks good modulation and of course no horrendous death cries or shudders.

The other set was installed first on a 29er Hardtail and they worked fine (IT WAS A CHEAP ON LINE PURCHASE TOO) and again no issues&#8230;. I then decided to build up a 26" Hardtail with the parts I removed from the 29er&#8230;this is where it all began and why I am even on this thread.

To the point the frame is a Yeti ARC and I built it up with the Juicy 7's and to my horror this shudder and noise&#8230;this death cry began. I first thought it might be the frame as it is an older model and has the trademark looped chain stays, I did all the old tricks new pads&#8230; scuffed the rotors, etc, etc&#8230; still the vibration an noise. I found that if I moved (made sure it was not pressed against the frame) the hydraulic line it seemed to have an affect on the noise/vibration. But like so many other "solutions" it was inconsistent.

I planned on trying 140mm rotors but remembered I had a vintage 160mm Hays rotor and I decided to try it- it worked! But there are a few variables

1.	I noticed that both the outer edge of the rotor (the Avid 160mm G2) and the respective area of the caliper appeared to have made contact. It seemed like just the front portion of the caliper came in contact with the rotor ( like the centrifugal force of the wheel/rotor flexed the bracket/frame enough to pull the caliper into the rotor, which explains the extra washers fixing some issues). Take a look at your rotor an see if it has marks or grooves on the outer edge- This would explain the performance staying the same but also the vibration.

2.	The rear stays seem to line up the wheel off center and I had to "eye" it up to line up so that the tire was centered in the seat/stays. I realize not everyone will have this issue but it could have played a factor.

I am sorry this is so long but I went about mad trying to figure this out and hope this helps those of you who have had the same issue, Let me know if this makes sense or if it holds no water-


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## dnoyeb (Sep 23, 2007)

I have Juicy 3s and not a problem. If I hit some mud Ill get a gring, usually in the front. I just apply the brakes lightly to wipe the rotor and it goes away.

One time I did get a funky wobbly but I discovered my front wheel was loose


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

I have just bought some Hope floating saw rotors, 203 front and 183 rear (both with the hope brackets for the correct size). I also have some kool stop pads that i will fit when i swap over the rotors. I will let you all know if the horrendous vibrating i get with my current G2's stops with the new rotors.


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## Triple T (Jul 26, 2008)

I've had Juicy 7's on my bike since December of last year without any problems until about 2 months ago when I developed the dreaded noise and horrendous vibration throughout the frame of my bike when applying the rear brake. Like most of us out there, I've tried just about every fix that's been posted on here. Tried different pads, different rotors, multiple combinations of pads and rotors. I've sanded my pads and rotors more times than I care to count. I was completely stumped. :madman: Then I got to thinking about it, and the noise started after I changed wheelsets. Then reading the posts about resonance frequencies, I figured that must be what's happening with my bike since I changed wheelsets from cheap OEM with loose ball bearings in the hubs to a set of Mavic wheels. We all know how Mavics sound. My solution was to install small rubber o-rings between my frame and caliper adapter. I can't say that this has completely solved my problem, since I've only had one ride on my "fix". But, it seems to have worked for the time being since my brakes were quiet.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

dnoyeb said:


> I have Juicy 3s and not a problem. If I hit some mud Ill get a gring, usually in the front. I just apply the brakes lightly to wipe the rotor and it goes away.
> 
> One time I did get a funky wobbly but I discovered my front wheel was loose


It seems like you're in the minority as far as this site goes. Maybe only those with problems post?

Anyways enjoy your trouble free, noise free brakes! How do the threes work when they work right?


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

übermensch said:


> .....My solution was to install small rubber o-rings between my frame and caliper adapter. I can't say that this has completely solved my problem, since I've only had one ride on my "fix". But, it seems to have worked for the time being since my brakes were quiet.


I mentioned this above in one of my posts as a possible solution!  I am glad to hear it may have solved _your_ particular issue. Please, let us know after further rides in various weather conditions how your situation is evlolving. As somewhat of an amatuer scientist/physicist, I am curious. Logic dictates that if applying your brakes make the frame shudder, the mounting point between the two is the culprit. Afixing some sort of rubber or polyurethane bushing to the mounting point should solve the problem.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*Still not quite right*

I posted earlier that I was having a horrible vibration, not the turkey noise, coming from the rear brake on my Ventana X-5. I have the same J7s on a 2001 Giant NRS, but with 160mm rotors where I have 185s on the Ventana. The Giant is perfectly fine. Both bikes have CK 32 hole rear hubs and all the rotors are the G2 ones.

I do get a bit of the turkey noise from the front rotor on the Ventana, but I can live with it. Brakes work fine and it isn't terribly annoying (it is mostly at low speed). But, that vibe problem in the back on the X-5 is horrible. I have a set of avid organic pads in there now and it is better but it still vibrates, just not as powerful of a vibe. In the past I tried nylon washers (was on a road/mtb trip so had limited options) on the caliper mount bolts to the frame. Didn't help and have since removed.

At the end of last week, I swapped to a 160 mm rotor on the back of the X-5. Not much of a change. I have tried all kinds of visual alignments of the caliper to the rotor. No good. Even went with feeler gauges (.008", I think) in between the pads and rotor, applied the brake (all with the caliper bolts loose) and then tightened the caliper bolts. No change...except for one ride..but the ride after that...the vibe was back.

Maybe if I can find a specialty hardware store at some point (if I was still in San Diego...I know exactly where to go) I can find some rubber washers to try and isolate the caliper mount from the frame somewhat. What I think would be ideal are some thin copper washers with a rubber coating on both sides. I am convinced that for my particular problem that is the only thing that will work with the G2 rotors.

Someone mentioned trying to calculate the resonant frequencies for different frames....as far as I know, the resonant frequency(ies) is a whole number multiple of the natural frequency of the system. Vibration is usually modeled as a spring-mass system. So, you'd not only need to know the material (to figure out its spring constant), you'd also need to know the cross sectional area (and length) of the tubing for the seat stay. Overall, it is a tough system to model accurately.

So for a true vibration problem , the easiest method is either to change the systems mass (rotor) or provide some damping (rubber washers). If you look at the method used on cars to stop disc brake squeal (which is a high frequency vibration of the pads), they put some goop on the back of the pads. This changes the mass and adds some dampening to the system as well.

The turkey noise, problem, at least what I am calling the tukey noise...doesn't feel like a vibration. It feels like I am dragging my brake pads across a cheese grater and there isn't a vibration transmitted through the frame. It was worse with the clean sweep rotors, better with the G2s, but I still periodically get it.


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## Triple T (Jul 26, 2008)

Notorious-J said:


> I mentioned this above in one of my posts as a possible solution!  I am glad to hear it may have solved _your_ particular issue. Please, let us know after further rides in various weather conditions how your situation is evlolving. As somewhat of an amatuer scientist/physicist, I am curious. Logic dictates that if applying your brakes make the frame shudder, the mounting point between the two is the culprit. Afixing some sort of rubber or polyurethane bushing to the mounting point should solve the problem.


I'll definitely keep you updated on the situation. Like I said, for the one ride I've tried this, my brakes worked perfect WITHOUT the vibration. And I have to agree with your logic that if applying your brakes makes the frame shudder, the mounting point must be the culprit.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

Yesterday I received my replacement organic pads and rotors from avid, brand new sealed in retail packaging. I'd say that is pretty good customer support. The funny thing is, now that I received the replacement parts my bike just stopped making horrible noises and vibrating. I didn't do anything to it but ride it and it seems better. I can visibly tell that my rear rotor is bent/warped but I'm not going to put the new rotors and organic pads on until I see what happens with the current setup.


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

Another possibility I have have come up with is the material of the actual disc. On an automobile the disc is a big, heavy, layered hunk of metal. On a MTB the disc is one peice, thin and pock marked with drilled out holes and grooves weakening over all structure. I know _why _the holes are there but they may also be part of the problem. I assume most rotors are made of aluminum. Aluminum is notoriously sqeecky because it is a "dirty" metal. You can clean it all day long but a white rag will always come away black. This residue creates a film barrier between the points of contact, the rotor and pads. The film acts as a cooling, but slick, agent that will eventually heat up cause the rotor to warp and change shape on the molecular level. The rapid cooling and heating of thin and flimsy rotor with hydrolic pressures pushing against it will cause the metal to expand and contract quickly causing vibrations that will inevitably start to resonate through the structure on the whole. (the entire bike). I don't know all the materials in question so I cannot prove this but I can suggest a different brake rotor material. Try titanium if its available or cobalt or strontium. At this point, I will blame the aluminum rotor as the faulty component. This is just a theory. Any purchases, good or bad, are your problem.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Notorious-J said:


> Another possibility I have have come up with is the material of the actual disc. On an automobile the disc is a big, heavy, layered hunk of metal. On a MTB the disc is one peice, thin and pock marked with drilled out holes and grooves weakening over all structure. I know _why _the holes are there but they may also be part of the problem. I assume most rotors are made of aluminum. Aluminum is notoriously sqeecky because it is a "dirty" metal. You can clean it all day long but a white rag will always come away black. This residue creates a film barrier between the points of contact, the rotor and pads. The film acts as a cooling, but slick, agent that will eventually heat up cause the rotor to warp and change shape on the molecular level. The rapid cooling and heating of thin and flimsy rotor with hydrolic pressures pushing against it will cause the metal to expand and contract quickly causing vibrations that will inevitably start to resonate through the structure on the whole. (the entire bike). I don't know all the materials in question so I cannot prove this but I can suggest a different brake rotor material. Try titanium if its available or cobalt or strontium. At this point, I will blame the aluminum rotor as the faulty component. This is just a theory. Any purchases, good or bad, are your problem.


So I guess they're steel not aluminum.

that argument is compelling but how to you explain the magura, hope, hayes, and other juicy rotors, which are made of Steel, and problem free?

Also the same rotors and pads with the bb7 system seem to be trouble free.

My new rotors and organic pads are on the way courtesy of Avid.

I'd like to publicly thank Gear Works Cyclery of Leominster, MA for taking care of the warranty claim even though I didn't buy my bike from them! :thumbsup:


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Notorious-J said:


> I assume most rotors are made of aluminum. Aluminum is notoriously sqeecky because it is a "dirty" metal. You can clean it all day long but a white rag will always come away black. This residue creates a film barrier between the points of contact, the rotor and pads.


"As somewhat of an amatuer scientist/physicist" you don't seem to be able to tell one metal from another...or you have never had disk brakes.

My Avid G2 and Galfer rotors are stainless steel. I bet all but a few specialty rotors are also SS steel.


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

gmcttr said:


> "As somewhat of an amatuer scientist/physicist" you don't seem to be able to tell one metal from another...or you have never had disk brakes.
> 
> My Avid G2 and Galfer rotors are stainless steel. I bet all but a few specialty rotors are also SS steel.


You are absolutely correct. I mentioned in one of my above posts (first one I think, in this thread) that I have never owned or seen up close a set of MTB rotors. From pictures they look like aluminum or steel, so I assumed they were aluminum; the lighter metal.


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## Loos (May 26, 2008)

If rotors were aluminum they'd rip right off the rim...

But I have a quick question... Have they optimized the 08 breaks in any way, or do they also resonate?


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## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

Loos said:


> If rotors were aluminum they'd rip right off the rim...
> 
> But I have a quick question... Have they optimized the 08 breaks in any way, or do they also resonate?


Someone better tell this guy...
Ebay

Or MTBR thread
CDT:thumbsup:


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

I have just installed my new hope floating rotors (203 front, 183 rear), and the demon turkey seems to have gone!!!! I will give them a real ride tonight, but they feel great just riding around my block. I'll post the final verdict later.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Hey guys...I don't have the energy to read 4 pages of thread, but I've figured out the warble on my Avid Juicy 5's.

When I adjust for pad drag, I loosen the caliper...clamp the lever...tighten the caliper. I looked at the caliper the other day and noticed that there was a part of the finish rubbed off by the rotor. When I looked at the rotor in the caliper...it was not aligned in the center.

I noticed that one of my pistons was hanging and the other was coming over to compensate for it. It was pushing the rotor into the caliper body causing the "warbling".

I free'd up the piston and re-centered. All is well.

It's been 3 years with little-to-no problems...I should consider rebuilding them, he?:thumbsup:


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

I just got back from a couple hour ride on my new hope rotors, and they performed brilliantly! There was not a hint of 'turkey', and the power is much greater (i did swap out my 185 rotor for a 203 on the front), plus, they look sweet!


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## Loos (May 26, 2008)

CdaleTony said:


> Someone better tell this guy...
> Ebay
> 
> Or MTBR thread
> CDT:thumbsup:


My bad, but what about my question?


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

Loos said:


> If rotors were aluminum they'd rip right off the rim...
> 
> But I have a quick question... Have they optimized the 08 breaks in any way, or do they also resonate?


I have Juicy Carbon 08's and they made the turkey noise. I think it's down to the rotors.


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## Biknbryn (Apr 6, 2007)

Organic pads are worth their weight in gold.

I'd replaced rotors, bled the lines, put in normal replacement pads, adjusted everything 3 times to no avail.

One set of organic pads are the brakes are now perfect!


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Two brands of organic pads did nothing for me. It seems to take a different combination for each setup.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*Here is what I have found:*

I have posted a couple of times. Taking a closer look at my 2 main rides (with the same J7's on them), as well as some pictures from last year of one of my bikes I figured out the difference for me, and it isn't the pads (though they help somewhat).

I had posted that I never had a vibration problem on my X-5 until I moved back to the west coast. Only an occasional turkey warble. My NRS never had any problems what so ever. I *thought* the only difference was the size in the rotors and the difference in frame design.

Turns out on my X-5, I have had the old roundagon? rotors at one point. Then the G2 rotors. And now the G2 clean sweep rotors. I have tried both the 160 and 185 mm G2 CS rotors on the back of my X-5, both with organic and semi metallic pads.

My Giant has only ever had the G2 rotors in 160mm and semi metallic pads. And the only time I didn't have problems on the X-5 was when I was running 185mm G2 rotors (not the G2 CS rotors).

So, for me, rotor choice is the key. I didn't realize it because I wasn't paying that much attention. But, the G2 CS rotors, you can tell them apart from G2 rotors since the CS rotors are slotted whereas the regular G2 rotors have patterns of three holes drilled in them. I may still try the Galfar rotors since they seem easier to find than the regular G2 rotors.

FWIW, a friend who rides a heckler with J7s and 185 mm rotors alleviated all of his problems as well by switching to the regular G2 rotors after the roundagon thingys.


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## Nexeo (Jun 1, 2008)

gmcttr said:


> Two brands of organic pads did nothing for me. It seems to take a different combination for each setup.


The problem is that you cant just put in organic pads with rotors that have already been "bedded in" by metallic pads. If you switch to organic pads to solve the issue, you'll probably need to get brand new rotors as well. Avid sent me two BRAND NEW rotors and sets of organic pads for free, just give them a call...


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

The slots radiating around the G1 and G2 rotors are orientated oppositely and the old round-a-gone rotors used holes in place of the slots. My 04 J5's with round-a-gone rotors and my old 04 BB5's with G1 rotors never cried like a turkey. On the other hand, my 07 J5's with G2 rotors vibrate the frame and do the turkey thing. As posted, I have tried (one) 185mm and (2) 160mm rotors, bled the brakes, cleaned the caliper, sanded the OEM semi-metallic pads, cleaned and sanded the rotors and replaced the pads with Avid organics. None of the remedies have worked so it narrows it down to rotors, a design flaw with the caliper or a frame/wheel issue.


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## SAR13 (Jul 8, 2008)

Update and "solution"
I tried sanding and cleaning pads and rotors - no luck.
So I switched pads back to front and rode around the neighborhood. The warble moved to the front.
As suggested I called Avid and then my LBS and pads/rotor are on the way. Avid said it was a bedding-in problem and since I bought the bike slightly used, and I am a disc brake jong, it certainly could be
Before yesterday's ride I decided to switch the pads back since I was already used to the warble in the back. Sanded the pads lightly before switching but not as much as I had before.
Went for a moderately big ride and...
no noise, no vibration from either brake.

No this isn't a solution really, but I think someone else "ordered" the new pads from Avid only to have the noise go away. Maybe the stock pads "know" you are giving up on them and decide to starting working. Seems about as likely as some of the other solutions that have worked.


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## Triple T (Jul 26, 2008)

An update to what I used to solve my vibration/noise issues.

I know have 2 rides on my "fix". I completed my first ride without any issues and posted this earlier in the thread. During my second ride...I started to develop the problems again, albeit, not as bad as before. A post ride inspection of my bike revealed that the o-rings I had installed between the frame and caliper adapter, had begun to tear. They're obviously not meant to handle the stress and the torque of tightening the bolts to the specified value. I still believe that MY solution is to isolate the caliper adapter from the frame, I'm just going to have to find stronger material to do so.


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## CraigCreekRider (Apr 12, 2007)

With 5 pages under this heading, it seems as this is a design or production flaw that should have been fixed by now. I have had 3 Juicy 5's that have been noise free. The one on the front of my bike now has "chirped" since I bought the bike - through 3 sets of shoes. Usually goes away, but always comes back. It is worse during climbs when you are going slow. Very annoying - may be my last set of Avids.


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## Hadouken* (Nov 27, 2007)

Craig, you need to align your caliper mate. It sounds as though you have a warped rotor, which may be down to you bashing it, or the rotor bolts may need to be tightened. The turkey noise is a completely different beast!


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## ww sunn (May 10, 2005)

My experiences with the Juicy 7 echo so many others on this thread:

I've had the brakes on 3 different frames and have always had the turkey warble in the rear. I put on the G2 rotors last year hoping for help. Didn't help. This year I put on new Avid organic pads. This helped take care of the turkey warble but now I've got a shudder.

This rear shudder is awful. Terrible. Makes me not want to use my rear brake. It reverberates up through the saddle, right up my arse and into my spine. Bad news.

I've tried the extra washers. Didn't help. Tried the toe in trick. Didn't help. Asked 2 good mechanics. Didn't help. 

Basically, I have time to ride/race but not to keep dicking with these brakes. I've really had it.

And it's really amazing how many on this thread have the same exact scenario/symptoms. It all really makes me like my BB7s on my other bike. Or Formulas or XT brakes.


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

onbelaydave said:


> I noticed just a "very" slightly different wear pattern front to back and stuck ~ 3/32" worth of washers under the rear CPS mount and re-aligned as usual.
> 
> The rear is now the quietest, smoothest it has ever felt; better than the front for now. One finger/ 4 oz pressure to lockup/skid the rear tire. I took it out for a short test ride, re-bedding the pads with about 50- 60 stops. Only time will tell.


Has anyone else had any luck with this? I have a 2008 Fuel EX8 with J5's that just recently develped this in the rear. Was quiet during the ride, but then when I came home and gave it a water shower and rode around the next day it is much more pronunced.

I assume the washers came from the local home store - lowe's/home depot? What size are the washers? I think this is my problem because i dont have a loud noise at all. Its fairly quiet and more of a feeling...like its hitting the arms - which it is as i can see from the wear marks


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

This is a new problem for my rear J7's - it appears the entire inside pad itself shakes loose enough that the removal tabs actually buzz/scrape against the rotors arms. It doesn't happen all the time, so far seems to be when the weather is cool.

Anyone have considered going to Juicy Ultimates...would this be an improvement?


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## MudInMyEars (Apr 4, 2005)

jbsmith said:


> Has anyone else had any luck with this? I have a 2008 Fuel EX8 with J5's that just recently develped this in the rear. Was quiet during the ride, but then when I came home and gave it a water shower and rode around the next day it is much more pronunced.
> 
> I assume the washers came from the local home store - lowe's/home depot? What size are the washers? I think this is my problem because i dont have a loud noise at all. Its fairly quiet and more of a feeling...like its hitting the arms - which it is as i can see from the wear marks


I just did this for my front and it improved. I got the washers from a spare Avid brake set I have, so it is the same asone that is under the bolt head. I would imagine they could be obtained elsewhere.


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

jbsmith said:


> Has anyone else had any luck with this? I have a 2008 Fuel EX8 with J5's that just recently develped this in the rear. Was quiet during the ride, but then when I came home and gave it a water shower and rode around the next day it is much more pronunced.
> 
> I assume the washers came from the local home store - lowe's/home depot? What size are the washers? I think this is my problem because i dont have a loud noise at all. Its fairly quiet and more of a feeling...like its hitting the arms - which it is as i can see from the wear marks


I added a washer when I first set mine up. The pads were obviously grabbing the rotor arms and missing on the outside of the rotor. One washer raised the calipers enough to center the pads on the rotor.

Good luck


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

what if based on the rotor wear it looks like im grabing about 1/8 inch of the arms, but it also looks like it it is geting all of the rotor as well??


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

Any body want to buy some Juicy 7's? If I spend more time trying to fix a problem than I do riding is it really worth it? 
I had a set of old school Hayes Hydro on a Hardtail since 98- and they worked just fine- now these SRAM "newer" and "better" brakes are just a waste of time- 

If I am able to (without losing too much cash) I will remove both sets from my bike and replace them with something that I bolt on and forget about- what a novel idea-


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

I just put two 6mm washers under the CPS system on the rear J5 on my EX8. It seemed to lessen the sound/vibration (i wouldnt call it a vibration - more of a grabby feeling). I rode it up and down the street for about an hour stoping and starting...didnt get worse but not better either.

I also noticed on the back its impossible to get the rotor to spin without at least grazing one of the pads. I assume this will go away as the pads wear. I also assume that its due to the manufacturing tolerances...nothing is going to be 100% perfect for a 2000$ bike (although it should be!!).


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

Ok I've had the warble problem too. I did something different that I haven't seem everyone else do yet on this post or in other posts. I'll try to explain the best I can...

I believe the warble comes from uneven pad pressure onto the rotor. When one tightens down the rear caliper, I think everyone loosens the two bolts gently squeezes the rear brake lever until the pads firmly grab the rotor, and then tightens down the two bolts. The caliper/pads are supposed to be self aligning. That is supposed to center the pads correctly and evenly on the rotor. I believe that in that process the centering/aligning is not really happening as it should. Visually, it may look like all is centered, but it really isn't. The loud warbling noise is a testament to this. I believe the caliper is fully grabing the rotor before the tightening of the bolts, but not completely. That is to say that the the caliper/pads actually are at an angle but not clearly visible to the eye but enough to clear the rotor when the wheel turns.

So...going with that premis I loosened the bolts, then gently squeezed the caliper while holding the caliper with the other hand and helping the pad/caliper alignment process. Making sure that the pads grab the rotor as equally and evenly, as I can possibly can, eye-balling it.

The resul was, I went from warbling rear brakes consistanly on the descent to no warbling at all on several rides already. Co-incidence? Maybe...maybe not... The only thing that I should have done differently was to sand the pads down evenly. I didn't puposely do that to test my theory. I will now sand the pads lightly as usuall and tighten the calipers as described above as soon as I get a chance.

In short I really believe the calipers/pads have not really been self aligning. But with some help of the other hand and eyeballing, you can do a better job centering the pads/caliper. I hope some of others can try this if I explained it correctly.

I can probably test my theory by loosening the caliper again, moving the caliper a bit, then re-tightening it again the old fashion way. But for now, I think I will enjoy some noise free descents.


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

i thought of this as well...it did lessen the issue. I am not sure however if it was eyeballing it or if it was the 2 washers I added.


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## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

my experience with juicy and the warble has been essentially the offending noise and no decrease in performance. inspeciton of the pads demonstrated them to be badly tattered from dirt and actually filled with specks of metal debris, dirt, grease, etc.

sanding them down fixed the problem.

replacing them did as well.


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## fishcake (Feb 26, 2004)

Had the same problem for about a year on two different bikes with J7's
Tried everything mentioned before, new pads, sanding pads, washers etc...

Then bought a new bike which came with Hayes Strokers and decided to swap the rotors over
So I have Hayes rotors with the J7's, Avid rotors with the Strokers, 
And for the last 10 months both bikes have worked perfectly and *quietly*

Solution is just to change the rotors to a different brand - Hayes rotors work for me 

Fishcake


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

where do you guys get your parts from...such as pads and rotors. After reading fishcakes post i decided to look for a stroker rotor online...of course i couldnt find anything. Is this something where the only option is the LBS?


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

Search for Hayes rotors.

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14.../Disc/Hayes-Disc-Brake-Rotor-V6-_-V7-_-V8.htm


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

i have 185 rotors - front and rear...i notice that hayes calls theirs 7'' rotors. Is that just marketing (instead of saying 7.28 inches) or is it really 180mm (actually 7 inches is 177.8mm)? seems to me that the 5mm diffrence shortens the radius of the rotor, thus effectivly raising the caliper - much the same as adding washers under the CPS so the pads arent grabbing the arms.


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## rfields4013 (Jul 10, 2004)

I was having this problem as well. I replaced pads, replaced my avid rotors with new avid rotors (G2), sanded pads and rotors, cleaned pads and... you get the picture. 

What fixed it for me was switching to Hayes rotors. When I switched, as an experiment I replaced my front pads with a new set of sintered Alligator pads and placed new Avid organics on the rear. I had used sets of these same pads with my Avid rotors to no avail, as they continued to squeal, howl, and shudder. This combination with the Hayes rotors however has been silent and smooth.


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## mitch66 (Dec 6, 2006)

The problem might be a loose fastened brake cable. Yes you read it right. Make sure to fasten the rear brake cable with cable ties to the frame. 
Try this, it might seem strange and odd, but it works. Not only for me, but several others with the same problem as well.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

Here is one solution... 




























(i've only upgraded the rear for now - as weird as that sounds - since REI only has the 160 (which I only bought since I could use an REI coupon I found online...) ... But after riding it today... Wow!!! I need to get a 185 front somehow soon!!!.... My J5's worked pretty good and I didn't really have much complaint... But the Elixir CR is just so smooth, powerful but with amazing modulation. Installed, adjusted once, and not a peep or squeak out of these on the ride today which had a lot of descents where the brakes were much needed. I'm sure the G3 rotor helped too for quietness (vs the G2).

On the plus side I sold the J5 rear to a friend who needed a new rear brake... )

cheers


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

MI_canuck said:


> On the plus side I sold the J5 rear to a friend who needed a new rear brake... )


I hope he doesn't turn into an ex-friend  .

The Elixers look nice. I'm ready to toss the J7s from my Hifi 29er, but I'm not sure about replacing them with another Avid product. I've lost hours this weekend on trying to kill the dreaded turkey, and my faith in Avid is at a low point right now. I am mightily frustrated.


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## Loos (May 26, 2008)

There are plenty of other great brake manufacturers out there...


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## Triple T (Jul 26, 2008)

Damn, those elixirs look sweet. But, to get back to the Juicy 7 problem..I modified my solution. Previously, I used o-rings between the caliper adapter and frame. Unfortunately, they weren't stout enough to hold up to the stress. Still believing that if I isolated the caliper adapter from the frame, I wouldn't get the resonance vibrations, I took my old adapter from my BB5's which were stock on my bike, installed 2 washers underneath the bolts to hold it to the frame, and also installed 2 washere behind the frame, before the adapter. And viola...quiet as a church mouse. It was so nice to ride and not worry about scaring the local wildlife into running out in front of you on the trail. Not to mention giving women and children a fright whenever I braked behind them. The brakes performed like they did when I first got them, and were so quiet it was unbelievable. I think the fact that my old BB5 adapter is made of different material, and is shaped different, helped change the interaction between the metals, along with the washers isolating it. Don't know if my solution will work for everyone, but it definitely works for me. Incidentally, I'm running 160mm front and rear. Delta Aztec rotors, ebc organic pads in front, and goodridge organic pads in the rear.


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## phx29er (Jul 7, 2008)

Mixing organic and metallic.

My hifi 29er (juicy 5 brakes) made horrid noise on the rear wheel when breaking. Today the mech. at the LBS told me to try one pad of each. Have only put in a few miles but the noise is a lot less now.

Will post back in a few weeks to update how this works.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

oscarc said:


> In short I really believe the calipers/pads have not really been self aligning. But with some help of the other hand and eyeballing, you can do a better job centering the pads/caliper. I hope some of others can try this if I explained it correctly.


I have this problem now with my Codes, but the above statement is absolutely correct. As a bike-shop mechanic for a while, I can attest that when you grab the brake handle, and then tighten the bolts, the caliper TWISTS because of the friction of the bolts as you tighten them. If you are doing this adjustment/setup, watch the caliper VERY carefully and you'll see it. It usually gets "good enough", but I assure you the caliper moves from that "centered" position as you tighten the bolts. Avids CPS is kind of nice, but this is the one problem I have with it vs the old shim method. It was hard to screw up the shim method, but the CPS makes it difficult to get it exactly straight. I have to do some experimenting myself now to try and get it set up so it doesn't reasonate (it's the front brake), but there's a lot of good things to try and ideas in this thread.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I have this problem now with my Codes, but the above statement is absolutely correct. As a bike-shop mechanic for a while, I can attest that when you grab the brake handle, and then tighten the bolts, the caliper TWISTS because of the friction of the bolts as you tighten them. If you are doing this adjustment/setup, watch the caliper VERY carefully and you'll see it. It usually gets "good enough", but I assure you the caliper moves from that "centered" position as you tighten the bolts. Avids CPS is kind of nice, but this is the one problem I have with it vs the old shim method. It was hard to screw up the shim method, but the CPS makes it difficult to get it exactly straight. I have to do some experimenting myself now to try and get it set up so it doesn't reasonate (it's the front brake), but there's a lot of good things to try and ideas in this thread.


Holding the lever snug the bolts alternating one to the other till tight this usually does not allow the caliper to shift.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Folks, I believe clearcreek nailed the most widespread cause and solution for the turkey warble problem back on page one.

I have Juicy Carbons on my '08 Scalpel 2, and while I didn't have the warble noise, I was getting some moderate to severe vibration from the front under hard braking. On my ride today, the front did make a bit of a gobble-gobble sound while braking at one point. I had seen this thread last week and thought to myself, "Oh, great, the turkeys are going to plague my bike."

Recalling clearcreek's post, I got off the bike, put as much pressure down on the front wheel as I could and executed a few hard stops while shoving the bike backwards. Voila! Vibration gone, and the front is now stopping very smoothly and quietly.

Since the gobble noise only reared its ugly head once, I can't claim that it is gone, but the vibration was eliminated for the rest of my ride. I will post an update once I've either had a few more trouble-free rides or the problem resurfaces.

I had to teach myself everything about these brakes since my LBS didn't set them up very well when they built my bike. It was clear to me that they didn't fully understand how they work as they tried to convince me that it was normal to have one lever engage 1/3rd of the way in while the other didn't engage until 2/3rds when they were both adjusted the same. The rear has always worked well and I could get the pads to engage the rotor with the exact lever postion I wanted. The front has been plagued with low-frequency squeal (more of a honking like you'd get with poorly adjusted cantilevers/v-brakes than a shriek like you commonly hear from automotive disc brakes), and too much lever travel was required before the pads would engage the rotor (this was with the lever adjuster set all the way to 'out', which should require less lever travel before engagement). Although the pistons are supposed to automatically adjust themselves to keep the pads close to the rotor, this would not happen, and I would need to pull the lever though about 2/3rds of its travel before the pads would engage the rotor. 

I tried realigning the caliper many, many times to no avail. I went as far as to lubricate the CPS cup and ball washers, being careful not to get any lube anywhere near the rotor or pads, thinking that friction may have been keeping the caliper from aligning properly. No dice. I discovered via an mtbr post that you could force the pistons to adjust inward by removing the caliper from the rotor and squeezing the lever. That indeed did move the pads closer together, however, the caliper would no longer fit over the rotor. I carefully pryed the pads apart just enough to get them over the rotor, but now I could not get the pads to not rub on the rotor no matter how I aligned them. Argh! 

As most of you fully realize, it doesn't take much of a rotor warp to cause you grief, especially if you like your brakes set up like I do: I like the brakes to start doing something after very little lever travel. 

I spent some quality time before my ride today truing the rotor. It takes some patience because you want to bend it little by little, checking it frequently. I could not get it perfect, but I managed to remove roughly half of the side to side warp. This did not help with my lever travel problem, however: I could only keep the pads from rubbing by prying them fully apart before mounting the caliper. This makes some sense since the calipers were designed to work this way. So, I was left with more lever travel before engagement than I wanted, but at least the caliper was centered over the rotor and not rubbing. Off I went on my ride.

To my delight, about halfway through my ride the pistons adjusted inward on their own and I finally had the feel I had been after since getting my bike. It was a long and frustrating road, which I've now turned into an even longer story, but I hope this will save some people from the frustration I experienced. 

Alignment is crucial, and you are not likely to get it right with a warped rotor. True the rotor, then align. The rest will eventually take care of itself, except, of course, the turkeys. If the turkeys are gobbling at you, try some hard stops in reverse before you go nuts modifying and replacing parts. And for the love of dog, don't go putting rubber parts between your brakes and bike. Your brakes are designed to be rigidly mounted to your bike. Attempting to decouple your brakes from your bike is likely to compromise performance by degrading the feel/modulation, and could even make your problems worse. At best, you're just masking the problem rather than attacking the cause. 

True your rotors and align properly. :thumbsup: 

-Pete


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Update: I had a nice 1.5 hour long, very muddy ride today with some dry stretches and a few good downhills. I enjoyed the pleasure of smooth and quiet brakes the entire time. I know it's only been one full ride since the adjustment mentioned above, but so far it seems to have done the trick. My brakes have never worked better. 

-Pete


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

Interesting fix. That's the same technique some mechanics use to "re-seat" rear drum brakes in cars and light trucks. I guess it works on disc brakes too. Nice going!


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

*Light at the end of the tunnel*

Hi everybody!

First of all, I must say I've not read the thread thoroughly. I'm so damn lazy&#8230; Sorry.
 
Recently, all my problems disappeared. How? Let me tell you. It's a very long story (just like everybody else's, huh?)

My previous bike was a Specialized Epic, dressed with Juicy 7's (M.y. 2004) and Mavic Crossmax Enduro. Stock pads, stock rotors, stock hose and stock fluid. Problems: None.

Not so long ago, I made some money and boosted my ride to a '08 Yeti 575 (the jewel of the crown). Of course, I reused my reliable (to that day) avid juicy. Amongst a number of operations, the shop that assembled the bike had to refit a new, longer, hose for the REAR brake and, consequently, bled the whole system.

Beginning of the anguish. Vibration, warble, braking less than adequate. Dozens and dozens of shops "tech guys" scratching their heads, but no solutions after all. Contaminated pads and all that rubbish.

I dropped stock pads for a set of high quality, and expensive, Kool Stop 270A (aluminum backing plate, you already know). Solved: No way.

Afterwards, I purchased and tried a new rotor, G2 style -not the old wavy-, to no avail.

Alignment, realignment, reassembly, cleaning &#8230; were not working.

I started to blame the frameset. All that carbon fiber, no pivots at the dropouts &#8230; Finally, I took a stroll to my LBS and ordered a pair of Formula Oro 24's.

But I insisted in solving the problem. I had to. Thanks to my mechanical background, I knew I had to mate the frame to caliper bolts with the corresponding washers. First, I used some bakelite washers I had who-knows-where as a leftover. Sadly, they developed a great tendency to fracture. So I have to "upgrade" to stainless steel. I handed a pair of ISO 7089-5 plain washers and tightened the bolts by hand. Plus, as a benefit, the bolts won't scratch the softer aluminum dropouts. Some people into this thread are suggesting the same; however it didn't worked for me.

Also performed the "backwards" re-seating. I was prone to say it didn't delivered the desired result, but now I'm not so sure about it.

Now, the mystery. I recalled the banjo fitting on the caliper. I loosened the retaining bolt, turned the ferrule a bit upwards, only to get a smoother bending in the hose. Now, the hose approaches the caliper with a 45 deg angle. Previously, this "angle" was to be notably smaller. Then, retightened the bolt by hand, as usual. (I know, pictures would be really helpful, but I don't have any at the moment).

The result of all these procedures put together: No noise, no vibration, powerful and progressive braking&#8230; Problem solved. 

No, I can't explain it either.

Next morning I phoned the shop and cancelled the order.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

I'm not sure about this "backward seating thing". Simply said, the pads go in one way, have the little slot on the back which the piston fits into and your done. It's not like when you put the pads back in to the caliper they need to slip into anything else, by which only the backward force would do it.

I also don't buy the hose thing, or the sound resonating through the frame. The more I think about it, I seems as though it could be a combination of Avid rotor quality and the caliper not really self adjusting as I described above. The main culprit really being the misalignment of the caliper.

I bought again, a new set of the Avid organic pads and a new V6 Hayes rotor and installed it last Friday. I was careful to tighten the bolts while holding the caliper level to be sure the pads contact the rotor evenly and at the same time. I really needed a third arm to do this right...but did the best I could. I'm going to try this out tomorrow and see what happens. I'll report back after a few rides though.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

Notorious-J said:


> Interesting fix. That's the same technique some mechanics use to "re-seat" rear drum brakes in cars and light trucks.


Not sure what you mean by this. I've done rear brakes on most vehicles and was ASE certified at one point. There is no "re-seating" in drum brakes. You install the rear shoes, put the drum back on and adjust the parking brake via the star wheel adjuster. This then sets the distance between the drum and brake shoes. The purpose of backing up in a car and using the brake is that this motion continues to self adjust the parking brake, thus maintaining the correct distance between drum and brake shoes. It is "self adjustuing" via the starwheel adjuster. Some systems work better than others but that is a different story.


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't know if "re-seating" is the correct word to use but I have heard 2 different mechanics doing this. It seemed to work for them, I dunno. I just threw that out there. It's supposed to solve squeaking brakes I think.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

I changed all of the bolts that mount the caliper to the adapter and the adapter to the frame over to stainless steel bolts and eveything shut up and that was 4 months ago.
Perhaps they resonate at different requency or something.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*I still like the resonant frequency idea*

I like the resonance idea..but maybe I am biased since I am currently taking grad class in vibrations

Well, I got a 160 mm Hope 2 piece rotor today. Threw it on the bike and did a 30 mile ride with some good downhill runs. I'd say that I only had a noise or vibration maybe 2% of the time...and the times I did, the amplitude of the vibration wasn't nearly as bad. That could indicate that with a different spring constant for the 2 piece rotor...the vibrations that occur are now well past the natural frequency of the new rotor and thus the severity (Amplitude) of vibration is much less.

Or for all practical purposes...perhaps rubbing some chicken bones for good luck helped (or whatever the hell that superstition is with chicken bones) :thumbsup:


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Notorious-J said:


> Interesting fix. That's the same technique some mechanics use to "re-seat" rear drum brakes in cars and light trucks. I guess it works on disc brakes too. Nice going!


Not quite, Beavis. If drum brakes are vibrating, it's because the drums are warped/untrue or the pads are contaminated. Unlike discs, drums don't automatically adjust in the forward direction. Drum brakes are designed to adjust the shoes outward when needed when the vehicle is brought to a complete stop going in reverse. The mechanics you speak of were merely getting the shoes to adjust closer to the drums to achieve stronger braking and a better pedal feel - this would have little to no effect on any noise or vibration. The reason it sometimes takes a mechanic to do this is because most folks don't understand how drum brakes work, and seldom, if ever come to a full stop in reverse (if you watch you'll see most people inadvertently use the transmission to stop the car and get it moving forward). Also, the star wheels that are responsible for adjusting the shoes outward towards the drum can be a little stubborn, so sometimes several hard stops in a row in reverse are required to restore nomal braking and pedal feel.

All that having been said, the turkeys reared their ugly heads again while I was on my ride today. Unlike all past rides, it was a beautiful, very dry (no humidity) day today here in NH. The turkeys were quite fleeting, only appearing a few of times over the course of 1.5 hours, and any vibration that accompanied them was minor. The two or three times it happened, hard stops in reverse made it go away for awhile. My front rotor could still be slightly more true than it is, although I imagine it's well within design spec. I can't claim my caliper alignment is spot on, but it must be reasonably close since I'm getting excellent power and modulation, and the pads are quite close to the rotor with no drag/contact.

My next move will be to bevel/round the leading edge of the pads slightly, since if the leading edge is square and makes contact before the rest of the pad, vibration and noise is inevitable. Of course, pulling the caliper to tweak the pads will naturally cause the caliper to be at least slightly realigned when it is reinstalled, so this experiment does not really have the potential to lead to an exact cause.

BTW, any time brakes are making noise, at least one component is going into resonance (most likely the rotor in this case). When vibration is felt, typically a component or set of components with more mass than the rotor has gone into resonance. In the absence of a resonant condition, you are not likely to hear any noise or feel vibration, and this is because at resonance forces grow by at least an order of magnitude whereas the effects of non-resonant vibration tend to be much more linear. This is one of the major reasons these brake noise/vibration problems can be so fleeting: they're dependent on the bike speed as well as the braking force involved.

I'll post an update once I've played with the front brake some more. For now I'm not too worried since I have excellent braking power and feel, and the birds visit very infrequently and are easy to shoo away.

-Pete


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

An update from my posts #'s 40 and 75.

I now have about 240 miles with the Galfer rotor and pad combination (Juicy 7's) and still no noise.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

What about solutions for those who dont want to spend $$$ on new rotors? Ive tried cleaning and sanding but have not gotten the noise to go away. When i get the bike over to the LBS ill have them do some adjustments and see if that works, if not i will be putting organic pads and seeing if that changes anything...

Ill keep everyone posted.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

PimpinD said:


> What about solutions for those who dont want to spend $$$ on new rotors? Ive tried cleaning and sanding but have not gotten the noise to go away. When i get the bike over to the LBS ill have them do some adjustments and see if that works, if not i will be putting organic pads and seeing if that changes anything...
> 
> Ill keep everyone posted.


In the absence of a contaminated pad, defective pad (not likely, but all manufacturing processes have some percentage of defects), or defective rotor, I believe caliper alignment/centering is the prime culprit for the type of vibration that can bring the turkeys out.

It could be that with the stock pad/rotor combination, the system is very sensitive to being anything other than perfectly centered. This, of course, would be exacerbated by the slightest rotor warp. The very, very slight rotor warp that I have on the front is why I believe I have an intermittent turkey problem on the front and not the rear.

I did manage to straighten out the rotor a bit more last night, to the point where I think it's about as straight as a human might be able to get it. I'll realign the caliper once more before taking a ride tomrrow and post an update (now the the rotor is a bit more true, the caliper may not longer be centered on the rotor, thus the realignment).

-Pete


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## Notorious-J (Jun 10, 2008)

Pedalphile said:


> Not quite, Beavis. If drum brakes are vibrating, it's because the drums are warped/untrue or the pads are contaminated. Unlike discs, drums don't automatically adjust in the forward direction. Drum brakes are designed to adjust the shoes outward when needed when the vehicle is brought to a complete stop going in reverse. The mechanics you speak of were merely getting the shoes to adjust closer to the drums to achieve stronger braking and a better pedal feel - this would have little to no effect on any noise or vibration. The reason it sometimes takes a mechanic to do this is because most folks don't understand how drum brakes work, and seldom, if ever come to a full stop in reverse (if you watch you'll see most people inadvertently use the transmission to stop the car and get it moving forward). Also, the star wheels that are responsible for adjusting the shoes outward towards the drum can be a little stubborn, so sometimes several hard stops in a row in reverse are required to restore nomal braking and pedal feel.
> -Pete


Well then I guess I stand corrected, init? There's no reason for name calling, Butthead.


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## SAR13 (Jul 8, 2008)

Pete - What technique are you using to true your rotor?


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

PimpinD said:


> What about solutions for those who dont want to spend $$$ on new rotors? Ive tried cleaning and sanding but have not gotten the noise to go away.


If there is anything that you should learn from these 6 pages of posts (and all previous posts about noisy disk brakes by all of the manufacturers), it is that each of us has to experiment with our own particular setup to learn what will work for us.

You start with the freebies (align, clean, sand, bevel leading edge, etc.). If they don't work, you start spending $'s...pads first and if that doesn't work, different rotors.

I have seen the owners of other brands say Avids are junk, but this forum has had several Hayes, Formula and Hope owners aksing how to cure their problems lately. It happens across all or at least most brands.

OK...I'm done now.


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

*I have given up!*

I can sympathize with you guys. So far I have spent countless hours trying everything, not only what I have read on here but what some of my friends have suggested and have come up with nothing. I hava also spent about $400.00 on different parts, ie rotors (3 different manufactures) all sizes (160, 185, 203), 5 different types of pads (all different manufactures). I can honestly say that I have done EVERYTHING to try and resolve the horrible vibration during the descent.

The best solution I found to fix the problem was to order a set of Formula Oro Puro brakes and throw in the towel. If I had just bought them when this started I would have an extra $400.00 to buy some hubs with.

Anybody want to but a set of slightly used TURKEY brakes? GOBBLE GOBBLE!!! (Junky fives)

:eekster:


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

SAR13 said:


> Pete - What technique are you using to true your rotor?


Bare hands, my friend.

I do either put a paper towel over the rotor or wear clean gloves so that I can check it often without cleaning the rotor. You don't want finger oils contaminating the pads. I check the rotor by spinning the wheel and watching the rotor pass between the pads very carefully - despite the tight clearance, it's tough to see the warp.

As for my bare hand technique, if the warped section is on the side facing me and needs to be bent away, I'll get the section needing adjustment at the top. I'll then grab it with an overhand grip, so that the fingers on both my hands are over the top and grabbing onto the back side. I then use both thumbs to push the section away from me as I pull towards me with my fingers. It's important that you keep the overall force on the rotor neutral, else you may end up straightening a small section only to create a new warp over a larger section.

Start slow with little pressure and check often....that way you'll be applying the minimum amount of force to get the job done. I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to make things worse if you try to hurry the process.

Of course, this is what I've done for a slight warp. If you've got a more severe warp, a more radical approach or tools may be needed.

-Pete


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## capoz77 (Sep 14, 2006)

I had Juicy 5's then 7's and both were warblin like it was Xmas every ride 

Bought a set of Formula Oro Bianco's, a completely different kettle of fish - far more braking power, lots more modulation, no rubbing and awkard setup and NO warbling!

Formula for the WIN! 

My dead avids going back for a refund










Worlds apart



















as a side thought the shiny material Formula use for the brake mounts as in above pic feels like under extreme force it could be slightly shock absorbant - reducing the "turkey judder" to zero?


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

PatrickOrtega said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> First of all, I must say I've not read the thread thoroughly. I'm so damn lazy&#8230; Sorry.
> 
> ...


You should have kept them on order because it will be back. I had some of the fixes I did last 3 to 4 good rides, just enough time to start thinking it was gone, then BAM the TURKEY was back. Seriously though it will come back, trust me.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

Pedalphile said:


> Bare hands, my friend.
> 
> I do either put a paper towel over the rotor or wear clean gloves so that I can check it often without cleaning the rotor. You don't want finger oils contaminating the pads. I check the rotor by spinning the wheel and watching the rotor pass between the pads very carefully - despite the tight clearance, it's tough to see the warp.


I use a large monkey wrench, fits nicely.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

gmcttr said:


> An update from my posts #'s 40 and 75.
> 
> I now have about 240 miles with the Galfer rotor and pad combination (Juicy 7's) and still no noise.


Galfer rocks!!!!! :drumroll:


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## newpos (Aug 11, 2008)

those formula's are lookin' goood.

i'm convinced its the crappy avid clean sweep rotor. i had the CS 160 on the rear and it made noise even when my juicy 5's weren't on... switched the rear to shimano 160 with my XT's and it works great!


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

nick59349 said:


> You should have kept them on order because it will be back. I had some of the fixes I did last 3 to 4 good rides, just enough time to start thinking it was gone, then BAM the TURKEY was back. Seriously though it will come back, trust me.


Yeah, sadly, that is exactly what I think is going to happen sooner or later. Who knows? May be I'm the first that suceeds where others have failed. Pretty snooty, huh?

No, no way. Eventually, it will come back. Of that i'm sure. Thanks for the advice, friend.


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

newpos said:


> those formula's are lookin' goood.
> 
> i'm convinced its the crappy avid clean sweep rotor. i had the CS 160 on the rear and it made noise even when my juicy 5's weren't on... switched the rear to shimano 160 with my XT's and it works great!


I tried two other manufacturers rotor and if anything they made it worse.:nono:


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

rode my HiFi with the Elixir CR's last night and much quieter - i suspect a part of this due to the G3 rotor (vs the G2 i had with the J5's)... pads are the same material - sintered metallic (although Elixir and Juicy pads are different in shape)... But so far very satisfied with the Elixir CR upgrade

under cornering while braking (so a lot of side load), still got the odd squeak... thanks to the 9mm QR front and rear, and the HiFi not having the stiffest rear dropout in the world, flex plays a part in noise... 

the solution for anyone most likely won't lie in a single fix... it's a system approach...


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

MI_canuck said:


> flex plays a part in noise... .


That is what I though as well, but the stiffer the rotor I tried the worse it got.:skep:


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

nick59349 said:


> That is what I though as well, but the stiffer the rotor I tried the worse it got.:skep:


i meant more in frame/axle mount stiffness... if there any amount even 0.0005" between axle and frame (ie. quick release axles), there will be relative motion between rotor and caliper...


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

As previously posted, my rear 07 J5 with either a 185mm and 160mm clean sweep G2 rotor mounted to the wheel screams like a turkey in heat and vibrates the back end of my bike. Switching from the OEM semi-metallic pads to Avid's organic pads helped resolve the issues until they bedded in. Sanding the pads fixes the problem until they bed in again. Using a old 160mm round-a-gone rotor fixed the vibration problem (for 4 rides) and changed the frequency of the turkey warble to a more tolerable level. What is interesting is that the front caliper with a 185mm CS G2 rotor never makes the turkey warble sound or vibrates. I wonder if the front is problem free because of A) the caliper is oriented in a vertical position, B) the fork’s mounting tabs are casted to a much tighter ISO tolerance than the bike frame’s tabs or C) that the newer frames have much stiffer/rigid caliper mounting tabs that transmit any brake vibration through the entire bike frame, which amplifies the effect. 

My newer 07 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR frame has very beefy (large diameter) chain stays and seat stay tubes with the ISO caliper tabs welded directly to the top of the seat stay. To my eyes this setup looks very strong and rigid. My old 04 SJ FSR ISO caliper tabs were a good inch above the seat stay tube and utilized thin aluminum bars to tie them into the seat stay tube. I could easily move the caliper side to side because the ISO mounting tabs were so thin and flexy. However, I never experience any vibration or turkey warble sounds from my 04 J5 brakes in over three years of riding. My 07 SJ with 07 J5’s vibrated after three rides, which points to the frame as the culprit of the problem.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

bwalton said:


> I wonder if the front is problem free because of A) the caliper is oriented in a vertical position, B) the fork's mounting tabs are casted to a much tighter ISO tolerance than the bike frame's tabs or C) that the newer frames have much stiffer/rigid caliper mounting tabs that transmit any brake vibration through the entire bike frame, which amplifies the effect.


While I believe all three of these could affect the nature of the symptoms, in some caes making the symptoms tolerable, I believe the root cause is still excessive vibration at the pad/rotor interface.

The hubs and wheelset are another factor that could have significant effects on the symptoms. The fact is, though, disc brakes should not vibrate noticeably when they are working properly.

I'm still getting the occasional warble on the front of my bike. Pushing the bike backwards into a hard stop makes it go away 100% of the time, but only temporarily.

I'm starting to wonder if the stock Avid pad backing plates are a contributor to the problem, since they are responsible for the pad/caliper interface. Ideally the pads would seat in the caliper and not move around enough to have negative effects on braking, but the 100% success rate of the temporary fix described above would suggest that is not happening.

Some folks have had succcess switching to Avid's organic pads - has anyone compared the backing plate on those to the stock pads?

-Pete


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

Pedalphile said:


> ... I'm starting to wonder if the stock Avid pad backing plates are a contributor to the problem, since they are responsible for the pad/caliper interface. Ideally the pads would seat in the caliper and not move around enough to have negative effects on braking, but the 100% success rate of the temporary fix described above would suggest that is not happening.
> ...


Most of us aren't even using avid pads, whatever the replacement may be: EBC, Kool Stop, Galfer... And that remedy hasn't worked in most cases.:madman:

Simply put, the pads are not the origin of the problem by themselves, and for sure 'organic flavor' is not a solution. I'm sorry.

Have a nice day.


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

I removed the thin shim washers between the bottom of the CPS cup and the top of the adapter yesterday and discovered two things: 1) The round-a-gone rotor doesn’t randomly chirp like the G2/CS rotor does without the shim washers. 2) The turkey warble is almost indiscernible using the round-a-gone rotor without the shim washers. I also packed the ISO disc tabs on the frame with grease to help dampen any vibration. So for me the rotor seems to play the largest roll in how my rear brake resonates.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

Well i seemed to have a solution to my noise issue.

I purchased these organic brakes from blueskycycling.com
http://www.blueskycycling.com/product5211_68_-EBC_Disc_Brake_Pads_for_Avid.htm

installed them today and took it for a spin around the block, no noise. I wont be able to full test them till tomorrow on my ride to work....


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Seems like the "trend" is that people do this...ride around the block...bike works fine...they post a "solution"...3-4 rides later, problem is back.

Let us know if it really works after a couple hundred miles or so.:thumbsup:


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

will do! end of the week then


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

PimpinD said:


> will do! end of the week then


Animal


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## BenR (Mar 31, 2007)

I rode my juicy 7's three times...it got worse each time I did a bit of research and read this thread and others...I bought a different brand. I am not going to chase it down and constantly fix it. It really ruins a good ride, with the noise and vibration...I took a loss, but will enjoy my next ride for sure....


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

well my noise wasnt AWFUL, and i didnt really get the vibration... looking at my old pads they had nice gashes in them which might have been causing it... ill know tomorrow after my ride to work where i can usually make the noise show up on command if the issue is gone or not...


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I changed my front 7" G2 rotor back to a 6" first Generation or G1 rotor. Noise is gone, pulsation is gone...though this was just a "round-the-block" test as well.

I expect my problem will be gone when I:
a. change rotors to something that doesn't have a varied edge like a smooth XT rotor
b. buy some code 5's, hahaha.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

well i rode to work this morning, 3miles in the humid FL climate, no noise. Im still breaking in the pads, but for now im content. Ill keep everyone posted.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*So far 3 rides...*

All 3 rides have long descents, some sandy, dusty conditions. Some steep sections. In my last effort, I installed a V6 Hayes rotor, yet another set of organic pads. I used alcohol to clean the rotor as per the Hayes directions. Then I tried to carefully align the caliper as I tightened the bolts as I have previously described.

*The first ride*/descent (20 minute descent) I just could hear the nice clean friction sound of new pads and rotor. After the ride, I noticed that the markings on the rotor from braking appeared to be somewhat streaked, some dark shades as if the contact between the pad and rotor was not complete. Shading maybe from heat, maybe dark from heat because there was more friction on those parts??? Could it be that the new pads are not completely flat? At least I had no loud noise but I guess with new parts, that was expected.

*On the second ride*, I still did not have the turkey noise but did develop an intermitant squeaking noise from rotor rub which depended on the speed of the tire rotation. After the ride I did notice more of the brown tint, apparently from heat? Although I would have expected for evidence of heat to show up as a blue color, like on a vehicle brake rotor. I attempted to realign my rear caliper before my next and third ride.

*Yesterday, on the third ride,* I began to start to hear some more noise beginning. Now the noise was beginning to sound like the howling, moaning coming back. On this descent however there we're stops and I believe time for the rotor to cool down. That may have contributed to the noise not completely coming back. After the ride, I noticed some of the brown shading was gone but there were still some brown streaks around the rotor. Later that day I decided to lightly hose my bike off with water and relube things. After I relubed my chain, and turning the crank while the rear was off the ground, I applied the rear brake and got the howling!...I continued to spin the rear wheel off the ground and when I lightly applied the rear brake, the howl was there. Only if I applied faster, harder pressure, did the brakes not howl. I'm curious had the descent been longer, as to generate more heat, whether the howling would have been back.

My next step will be to once again, remove the pads and sand them down lighting on a flat surface, go out and ride again and see what happens. The saga continues.

Guess I'll report back later...


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

I thought the organic pads and new rotors fixed if for my J5, but it came back. This time, though, the caliper had loosened a bit. Tightening it didn't solve the problem, though. It only helped it to be a bit quieter is all.

Since my XTR brakes have always worked fine on my other bike, I just found a used set of xtrs and made the switch. They work silently, but when aligning the rear caliper I found that I needed one extra shim between the frame mount and the caliper on one of the 2 bolts. Seems that the ISO tab on the frame is just a slight bit off. Now, with the J5s, I'd aligned the caliper perfectly, I thought, so I didn't think this was the issue. But, in any case, the xtr brakes are fine so far. 

I don't see it being the frame in my case, since the problem seemed to go away for awhile after changing pads and rotors. But, at this point, I found the solution. New brakes. No more avids for me.


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## barelfly (Jun 27, 2008)

I know this is a juicy thread, but what about these style of breaks - Hayes HMX-4 Mechanical Disc Brakes w/ 6″ Rotors. I have a noise coming from the back break? still reading through the pages here to see if there is a fix, but thought I would see what you have to say.


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## pfeng (Aug 26, 2008)

OK...I've been in the same situation as most of you w/ this brake issue (2008 Juicy Carbon). I think I've had it in all its forms: slight low-frequency buzzing all the way through crazy and violent shuddering and vibration through the seat/frame. I've tried many things; re-aligning CPS bolts, sanding pads, cleaning pads with acetone and rubbing alcohol, etc. However, I think I've got it! (at least for my situation). *I think its a problem, like one person mentioned, with the self-adjusting pistons not actually self-adjusting properly (and engaging the disc with slightly different pressures). * *In other words, I made sure to push both pistons completely back into their bores, and then made sure that they were flush all the way around. * (make sure you don't destroy the pistons at this point, because it may take a bit of pressure to push them back in) Prior to doing this, I did notice that one piston (in its 'rest' position) was further extended towards the center of the caliper than the other. After pushing them both back in and then putting things back together, both pistons' 'resting positions' are equal. I've ridden my bike for probably 50 miles (over 3 different days) since, with tons of braking and various usage scenarios and things are very SWEET *and silent*! Let me know if this helps-I know it seems kind of obvious, so I'm guessing some of you have tried this already. Let me know if this helps or works for you...
Happy riding~


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## kurupet (Aug 26, 2008)

I read somewhere that replacing the pads with organic ones, fixes the problem for most people. Can anyone confirm this?

I only had my bike for 4 months and ride once a week? Should I change the pads now or should I wait and see if the noise clears away eventualy?


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

pfeng - i think you nailed it. I made sure my pistons were back in place properly before installing the new pads. So far im 15miles in of riding, and where id normally get the noise its still silent. Usually leaving work, my bike is stored indoors in the A/C... the minute i roll it outside, its covered in condensation (got to love FL). The bike would make make all sorts of noise because of this... but yesterday same deal, nothing differnet... ill keep trying it and maybe find some left over Fay puddles and ride through them and see if i can get them to make any noise. If i pass 100 miles with no noise ill assume the issue is solved =P...


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## jcc456 (Mar 5, 2007)

*Avid Organics + new rotor = same problem*

No luck with the Avide recommended swap to organic pads and the new rotor (Clean Sweep 3).

Next step will be the Hayes rotor.

If that does not work - Formula K24s.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

FAIL! =( 

The vibrations have slightly come back. I will be taking it to the shop to have them adjust the brakes one last time with the new pads (maybe i messed up the alignment) and if not ill just give up lol


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

PimpinD said:


> FAIL! =(
> 
> The vibrations have slightly come back. I will be taking it to the shop to have them adjust the brakes one last time with the new pads (maybe i messed up the alignment) and if not ill just give up lol


What a pity! Keep trying...


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## Sopranos (Aug 13, 2006)

I did the whole organic pad thing and that didn't work..... I just switched to the new 08 XT system so the Juicy 7's are officially for sale.

They came stock on my 07 Stumpjumper FSR Expert.

Good luck to those who keep trying.... you have more patience than me. After following this thread I decided I would switch to a new system once something came up... sure enough some squealing, vibrating and pulsating/shuttering began in the rear so I wasn't even going to begin trying to fix it.

For the record the front was always flawless for me and they are very powerful if you can ignore the problems.

Sad!


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

yea i dont have the cash to throw on a new set of brakes just yet, so in the mean time i will continue to tinker...


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I switched front rotors and went for a ride today. My issue is resolved for the front. Rear is still gobble-gobble.

I'm gonna swap the front and rear and see if it changes things.

Mine were fine for 2 years. All the sudden, they started to crap out.:madman:


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

the brakes must read this forum also! they know when we are talkin about them!


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Reading all of this mega-thread and having been bit by the turkeys myself, I'm beginning to suspect that the caliper itself could potentially be the problem. 

-Pete


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

I still have no fix. I have a new set of avid rotors and pads sitting in my room, but I haven't had time to put them on and go riding. Chances are it will fix the problems until they pads bed in. Avid seemed to think I hadn't bedded them in properly when I called them. I did some some medium to slow stops to bed them in. It's not like I went did some downhill at Mt. Snow the first day i bought the bike. 

I short. No fix yet. I don't have the money to buy new brakes. Unless I can get some from work at cost.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

I had this issue a couple years ago with my J5's. I ended up shimming the caliper up because the pads were hitting the rotor arms. Been quiet ever since. 

However, I have BB7's on my new bike and the front squeals like a pig. I road with a group of 5 the other day all had avids except for one. It was like a boys choir rolling through the woods. Everyones avids were either squealing or warbling.


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## Hairllama (Oct 27, 2006)

I got bit by the turkeys. I changed to Kool Stop pads and they stayed away for a month or so. Then I started getting the turkey and non-retraction of the front caliper. Juicy 7s were my first hydraulic brake. I almost went back to BB7s, but now I really love my Formulas . . . no trouble at all with K24s or Puros.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I may have found the problem!!!

I have noticed an inconsistancy with pads. I went 2 years ( I think) without the warble. I changed to a new set of EBC Green pads which is the same that I've been running for the past 2 years. I noticed that the new pads grab lower on the rotors. The pad material is actually molded to the backing plate about 1mm lower than my previous set of EBC's.

I know you say "how can you see 1mm", but I look at EKG's all day and can eyeball a mm or so with confidence.:thumbsup: 

I noticed the same thing on my new set of Kool Stop pads that warbled and shuddered. I just switched front rotors from my 7" to 6" and it "cured" the front rotor noise and shutter. What I noticed was that the pads contact on the 6" rotor left about 1mm of rotor below the edge of the pad.

My rear brake actually grabs low on the rotor hanging about 1/2mm below the edge of the rotor. The shutter feels like it's happening about every time a rotor spoke goes by. It's too fast for it to be happening every time a rotor vent goes by.

I put some thin washers on my rear caliper to place it outward on the rotor with about 1/2mm of rotor hanging below the edge of the pad. I'll see if this works okay.


If it fixes the problem, I will put my 7" front back on and shim it out 1/2mm to 1mm and see if it cures the front issue.



Look at the lower (proximal to axle) edge of your pads in relation to your rotors and see if the pad hangs below the edge of the rotor at all. I believe that "any" overhang will cause the problem no matter how tiny, so I think the fix is to make sure that the rotor slightly rests below the pad.


This would explain the inconsistancy with occurances too. With new pads and new rotors, the surface of the pad will need to wear down a bit before the lower edge of the pad starts to grab on the rotor spokes.


I'll keep you posted.


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## bbgobie (Apr 20, 2006)

Lots of people have tried washers already including me.
From the markings on the rotor it is clear i already have a couple mm clearance from the bottom of the rotor arms.

What I have noticed is that even brand new rotors from Avid were not true out of the packaging.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

I wonder if avid will ever fess up and replace the deffective parts, if we can ever figure out what is exactly causing it. When i talked to avid, they the brakes are noisy.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

bbgobie said:


> Lots of people have tried washers already including me.
> From the markings on the rotor it is clear i already have a couple mm clearance from the bottom of the rotor arms.
> 
> What I have noticed is that even brand new rotors from Avid were not true out of the packaging.


It seems to have been the right cure for post #184...Oh the inconsistancy.:madman:


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

8 pages of people having major trouble with Avid brakes, I'm loving this, especially when I think back and remember that people didn't believe me when I said what awful brakes they are and how many problems I had had with them about 8months ago.

Good luck people, I binned mine in the end and got some XT's, they were no better so I binned them too and now have 2 sets of Hayes Stroker's running perfectly so there is light at the end of the tunnel.:thumbsup:


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

PimpinD said:


> I wonder if avid will ever fess up and replace the deffective parts, if we can ever figure out what is exactly causing it. When i talked to avid, they the brakes are noisy.


Wouldn't that be nice. They sent me new rotors and pads when I had my LBS call them, but the wouldn't admit to any problems with the brakes. I won't be buying any Avid hydraulic brakes in the future.


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## jcc456 (Mar 5, 2007)

*re: Avid Warranty*

My local bike shop (yeah Mojo Wheels!!!) is trying to replace the whole brake system for me right now. I will keep everyone posted on the result.

We have tried replacing pads, rotors, etc. Still vibrates like crazy. Note: I say vibrate - not just make noise. There is a huge annoying and scary difference.

Apparently, Avid is fully aware of the problem and willing to replace the system but only if all other options are exhausted, as they have been in my case.

I am glad that this is now an option but, frankly, am so put off by Avid's poor response to this that I will probably switch the brakes out for Formula k24's or the new XT.

I did a search on problems with Formula brakes and found one small forum thread from another site and the formula customer service department responded to that thread immediately with helpful advice. Has anyone seen a post from Avid here on this thread offering to help or clear the air???


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

I just said f'it and picked up a set of Hayes Stroker Carbon with V6 rotors new for $295 shipped. Cant complain, i hope they are quiet =P


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Don't get the new XT's, I got the same problems with them, at least the Avid's had a decent amount of power to go with the millions of problems.
 
Formula's are well known to be the safest bet&#8230;


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

what are the XT's? 

I rode my friends Trance with Stroker Trails, and they were powerful and quiet. I expect them same if not better performance from the Stroker Carbons.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

I had turkey gobble to start with on the Stroker's but it went away after a bit of use. The XT's just kept getting worse and worse and worse even after cleaning the discs/pads repeatedly and replacing the pads front and back 5 times. The pads are also very easily contaminated even with the sintered pads. Power is minimalistic even when working fine, the brakes do not work with other mineral oils which I find a bit strange and I think myself, 3 bikes shops and Shimano all tried and failed to bleed them to a usable state over 10 times. So all in all I was not happy with XT's and just because Shimano couldn't find the problem they argued there wasn't one even though they clearly don't work.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*Ok guys, bare with me...*

Go back and read my post #113 then come back...

Ok, yesterday night I sat myself down right in front of my rear brakes and looked and stared at them for about 15-20 minutes. No adjusting, pulling out pad, sanding or anything just looking at them, from sides, top, lifthing the bike to view from the bottom, you get the picture...If you read my post #113, I believe that when engaging the brakes, the pads are not in full contact with the rotor. Hence, the noise is coming from the rotor, not the caliper, frame, pads or anything else. In short, the caliper is not really aligned.

So...after really focusing on my brakes I began noticing that if I looked at my brakes from behind the rear wheel, looking so that I can see the caliper up on top, allen bolt top to bottom, you see allen head, then the small steel washer, the little cupped spacer, and the longer spacer in which the cupped spacer fits into. Then you have the caliper bracket, then another cupped spacer, then another long spacer, then the caliper bracket itself. Hopefully you get the picture. The bolt of course fits through all these and into the bracket. I believe that the caliper bolts should both be perfectly aligned top to bottom. When I look at bolts and washers top to bottom, the bolt from behind seems to be angled into the wheel along with the washers. Further more the washers are also not aligned and the little cupped washers are not even. What I mean by not even is that when I look around the edge of the cupped washers, there is more space around one side then there is on another. So in short, the stack of washers along with the caliper seem to be leaning into the rear wheel. To me this is out of alignment. Meaning the whole body, not the pistons. In my mind this leaning is causing uneven contact resulting in noise. When looking from behind and applying the breaks, I can now see the pads beginning to touch unevenly and the caliper then starts to lean also. I can also see the rotor deflecting to compesate for the pads. The pads to now show uneven wear, especially where the material seems to be taking more heat and more pressure. I can see where the pad almost appear to be crushed a little from the pressure. There is wear I believe the noise is coming from.

Now, how to fix? I'm not sure. I would think the cupped washers for one need to go and replaced with flat washers which I don't know where to find substitutes. I'm not sure what kind of fix to undertake here now...

Another note, the Avid Juicy 7 caliper body has those slots which to me also offer more slack. I know the slots and cupped washers are clearly designed that way to "self adjust". The problem though is that all this seems to be causing the whole caliper to lean inward unevenly.

So...can anyone provide me the phone # to Avid? I haven't been able to find it on there website. I plan on calling before go out and buy some Hayes or something else.

Also, a question for those who know. When comparing the caliper body bolt holes to other brands, are the other brands also slotted?
What about spacers and washers, what do those look like in comparison to Avids?

Guys...I now truly believe what I just have described is the issue. Logically speaking, a variety of pads and different rotors including Hayes V6, tried by myself, and many others has not worked permanantly. The common factor in all this is Avid calipers. To much distance between the where the caliper sits onto the caliper bracket.
I'm gonna go and check out the hardware of the other systems and compare a little to see what they've done. I bet there will be some differences in respect to distance between the caliper, caliper bracket, caliper hold down holes and washers...


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

XTR calipers are not slotted, and they come with shims to adjust the caliper in/out. Also, flat washers. No cupped washers. Not sure about other brands...

BTW -- my new XTRs had a very similar warble, before I got them aligned. On my frame, the rear caliper mount needed one extra shim on one of the 2 holes to get the caliper aligned just right. Now, the XTR are perfect. So, I agree with the above, it does seem to be related to alignment. I just couldn't solve it with the J5 I had been using.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*here's one sample of what I'm talking about.*

I bet these, don't howl. Note the solid looking caliper mount to caliper bracket. These look like they would not lean a whole lot if any. Also note the the number of washers and apparent bolt length.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

oscarc said:


> I bet these, don't howl. Note the solid looking caliper mount to caliper bracket. These look like they would not lean a whole lot if any. Also note the the number of washers and apparent bolt length.


I think there is a misconception about the noises that are being heard. Mine don't howl, they warble. Intermittently as the pad goes across the spaces in the rotor.

I'm sad to say that the spacing didn't work for me either. The front and rear are now both poop!

Good news though!!!

I'm getting mine warranty'd.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

chelboed said:


> I think there is a misconception about the noises that are being heard. Mine don't howl, they warble. Intermittently as the pad goes across the spaces in the rotor.
> 
> I'm sad to say that the spacing didn't work for me either. The front and rear are now both poop!
> 
> ...


there are a bunch of noises, the warble, howl, whistling, bird chirps. I think all attributed to the same misaligned caliper.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Have you tried bending the clip back that hold the pads in position, that will hold the pads back with more force and stopped the whistling on mine, that's just about the only thing I managed to fix on mine.

I can tell you the warbling has absolutely nothing to do with calliper alignment though.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

i fixed my issue, by getting Stroker Carbons =P ha. I figured i was going to spend money and time messing with them... and people in this forum know a lot more than me with more experience, so my chances of sucess.... VERY LOW. Ha.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

PimpinD said:


> i fixed my issue, by getting Stroker Carbons =P ha. I figured i was going to spend money and time messing with them... and people in this forum know a lot more than me with more experience, so my chances of sucess.... VERY LOW. Ha.


I'm starting to lean towards Hayes also since I believe all the noises coming from my Avids are design flaws with no real fix. such a shame...


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

*Aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!!*

9 Bleeping pages and the best fix appears to be buying a new set of Formula's or Hayes! Since I just got a new road bike, looks like it's Thanksgiving for me for the rest of the summer (gobble, gobble, gobble)!

Damn you Juicy 7's, Damn you!!!!


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

Klein_man - who knows maybe you will find the solution and it will fix the issue? I just suck at bike repairs and figured if i was gonna waste more money on new discs new pads etc... might as well just get new brakes!


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Klein_man said:


> 9 Bleeping pages and the best fix appears to be buying a new set of Formula's or Hayes! Since I just got a new road bike, looks like it's Thanksgiving for me for the rest of the summer (gobble, gobble, gobble)!
> 
> Damn you Juicy 7's, Damn you!!!!


This is a joke. I mean I know I have juicy 3s so they are far from top of the line, but the problem happens with their juicy 7s and carbons. It's gotta be a design flaw/crappy product.

Maybe they should issue a recall or something? I mean there are 9 pages of us with the same problem.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> I can tell you the warbling has absolutely nothing to do with calliper alignment though.


What leads you to this conclusion?

Per my last post, I believe the caliper is one way or another at fault. It could be that the caliper itself is fine and dandy, but the tri-align system prevents proper and consistent alignment. One of the symptoms that supports this hunch is that I never get the nasty vibration unless I'm braking relatively hard - I've never been able to reproduce anything other than the type of squeal that is common to all designs except under fairly hard braking. What is different under hard braking? The forces exerted on the mounting hardware.

As noted several pages ago, I suspected that the mounting hardware may have been binding, preventing proper alignment. I did lube all the washers and all surfaces between the bolt head and caliper bracket, to no avail.

I've got some 6061 T6 aluminum scraps lying around. If the LBS can't do anything about the turkeys when I see them on Friday, I may try making my own non-tri-align spacers and see if I can manage to get the caliper aligned. If nothing else, it would be an interesting experiment.

-Pete


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

Pedal - i get the noise under light braking and it usually goes away when i brake harder, right before the wheel locks up. So....


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

PimpinD said:


> Pedal - i get the noise under light braking and it usually goes away when i brake harder, right before the wheel locks up. So....


Do you get the awful vibration? Any time the turkeys have visited me, nasty vibration has been present. I've never had the vibration w/o the gobblers.

-Pete


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

yep nasty vibration up the seat post and into my ass. but always when lightly pressing the brakes. so bad i started doing my own ABS style braking... PULSATING. to keep from having a constant noise, and using my front brake a lot more than i should be...


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

PimpinD said:


> yep nasty vibration up the seat post and into my ass. but always when lightly pressing the brakes. so bad i started doing my own ABS style braking... PULSATING. to keep from having a constant noise, and using my front brake a lot more than i should be...


Same thing here.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Pedalphile said:


> What leads you to this conclusion?


I've been told by Hayes that's purely to do with the pads, they unlike Avid have set the turkey gobble problem as their top priority apparently. It's a pad break-in/compound problem, it's significantly easier to fix on Hayes and Shimano brakes but it's the same thing.

Obviously the poorly designed and flimsy rotor combined with mounting hardware not to hold a tooth brush steady will make it worse on the Avid's but it is the same problem.


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

ditto here


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> I've been told by Hayes that's purely to do with the pads, they unlike Avid have set the turkey gobble problem as their top priority apparently. It's a pad break-in/compound problem, it's significantly easier to fix on Hayes and Shimano brakes but it's the same thing.
> 
> Obviously the poorly designed and flimsy rotor combined with mounting hardware not to hold a tooth brush steady will make it worse on the Avid's but it is the same problem.


Just because Hayes says that is the problem, doesn't mean it's gospel. I'm willing to bet the vibration stems from a misaligned caliper. If the caliper is misaligned, then the pads are mis aligned. If the pads are engaging in a misaligned position, they could be moving in and out of the vents causing pulsating and vibration. In order for a rotor to pulsate/vibrate as bad that you would feel it up to your seat, I don't believe will come from a warped rotor. The wheel could just not rotate fast enough to cause this. But the vents, spaced as close together, is where I can see the pads dipping in and out. Just my theory.

I've though about this some more...here's what I going to try next. Following the assumption of a misaligned caliper. I'm first going to lightly sand my pads down to even the surface as best as possible once again. Reinstall pads. With the caliper bolts loose, I'm going to depress the rear brake till it grabs the rotor tightly, making sure that it is not angled or anythng. Once I think I have a good grab, I'm going to tie something around the brake lever to maintaine the break pressure on the rotor. This will free up both of my hands. Then before I tighten the caliper bolts, I will make sure the washers are aligned and not leaning. I will also make sure the caliper bolts are aligned straight up and down as well, making sure at the same time that the top of the bolt allows the caliper to look aligned via the caliper hold down hole/slot. Then I will tighten the bolts a little at a time front and back, making sure the washers remain aligned, and caliper bolts remain vertically aligned. Hopefully I can do this sometime tonight or before my long ride on Thursday. If that doesn't work I'm out of ideas, I'll plop down the $$$ for Hayes or something.

So, no one has a phone number for Avid?

My attorny and myself would like to give them a call...

Avid is reminding me of Canon and there not fessing up to issues with their cameras, that's why I shoot Nikon:thumbsup:


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

WORLD HEADQUARTERS
Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
SRAM Corporation
1333 N. Kingsbury, 4th Floor
Chicago, Illinois 60622
Phone: +1-312-664-8800
Fax: +1-312-664-8826


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

oscarc said:


> Just because Hayes says that is the problem, doesn't mean it's gospel. I'm willing to bet the vibration stems from a misaligned caliper. If the caliper is misaligned, then the pads are mis aligned. If the pads are engaging in a misaligned position, they could be moving in and out of the vents causing pulsating and vibration. In order for a rotor to pulsate/vibrate as bad that you would feel it up to your seat, I don't believe will come from a warped rotor. The wheel could just not rotate fast enough to cause this. But the vents, spaced as close together, is where I can see the pads dipping in and out. Just my theory.
> 
> I've though about this some more...here's what I going to try next. Following the assumption of a misaligned caliper. I'm first going to lightly sand my pads down to even the surface as best as possible once again. Reinstall pads. With the caliper bolts loose, I'm going to depress the rear brake till it grabs the rotor tightly, making sure that it is not angled or anythng. Once I think I have a good grab, I'm going to tie something around the brake lever to maintaine the break pressure on the rotor. This will free up both of my hands. Then before I tighten the caliper bolts, I will make sure the washers are aligned and not leaning. I will also make sure the caliper bolts are aligned straight up and down as well, making sure at the same time that the top of the bolt allows the caliper to look aligned via the caliper hold down hole/slot. Then I will tighten the bolts a little at a time front and back, making sure the washers remain aligned, and caliper bolts remain vertically aligned. Hopefully I can do this sometime tonight or before my long ride on Thursday. If that doesn't work I'm out of ideas, I'll plop down the $$$ for Hayes or something.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do that if I were you. Probably, you are going to achieve the very same result, only it'll waste more of your time. This first time maybe you get a close-to-perfect alignment (I doubt it, sorry) but, over time, this alignment will turn into mis-alignment, and BAM! noises again.

Nobody has tried replacing the CPS stuff (convex-concave washer assembly, aka mis-alignment device) with some spacers? I mean, NOT with a stack of washers but a true spacer.

I'm not proficient in the disc brake market, but i'll bet that most of the calipers out there have some kind of slotted holes, only to make adjustments possible.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

oscarc said:


> Just because Hayes says that is the problem, doesn't mean it's gospel. I'm willing to bet the vibration stems from a misaligned caliper. If the caliper is misaligned, then the pads are mis aligned. If the pads are engaging in a misaligned position, they could be moving in and out of the vents causing pulsating and vibration. In order for a rotor to pulsate/vibrate as bad that you would feel it up to your seat, I don't believe will come from a warped rotor. The wheel could just not rotate fast enough to cause this. But the vents, spaced as close together, is where I can see the pads dipping in and out. Just my theory.
> 
> I've though about this some more...here's what I going to try next. Following the assumption of a misaligned caliper. I'm first going to lightly sand my pads down to even the surface as best as possible once again. Reinstall pads. With the caliper bolts loose, I'm going to depress the rear brake till it grabs the rotor tightly, making sure that it is not angled or anythng. Once I think I have a good grab, I'm going to tie something around the brake lever to maintaine the break pressure on the rotor. This will free up both of my hands. Then before I tighten the caliper bolts, I will make sure the washers are aligned and not leaning. I will also make sure the caliper bolts are aligned straight up and down as well, making sure at the same time that the top of the bolt allows the caliper to look aligned via the caliper hold down hole/slot. Then I will tighten the bolts a little at a time front and back, making sure the washers remain aligned, and caliper bolts remain vertically aligned. Hopefully I can do this sometime tonight or before my long ride on Thursday. If that doesn't work I'm out of ideas, I'll plop down the $$$ for Hayes or something.
> 
> ...


I've had problems with both Canon and Nikon, I'm shooting Olympus and Pentax DSLR's these days.

Anyway that's neither here nor there, I apologise for my last post, here we are a few months later and this is what Hayes is now saying on the issue, copied from the Giant forum&#8230;:thumbsup:

Heya Scott, I am aware of this issue and we're currently investigating 
what is causing this vibration. Noise and vibration can be the result of 
several factors. To begin the first thing I start with is to insure that 
all the hardware relating to the bike itself is torqued to proper spec. 
This includes all suspension linkage, shock mount, and adapter hardware. 
Next, check the spoke tension and hub adjustment of the wheels 
themselves, as well as the torque of the disc mount screws. Insure the 
quick release is good and tight as well. Vibration wise, I would clean 
the rotor thoroughly with isopropyl alcohol as during the initial 
bedding in of the rotor you may have inadvertently caused an uneven 
depositing of brake pad material into the rotor, which can lead to a 
shudder as the brake hits areas of high and low concentrations, 
resulting in the brake grabbing more in some areas than others. One last 
thing to check is the inside measurement of the shock mounts themselves 
compared to the fitment bushings installed on the shock. If the 
differences in measurement are great than .2mm, this results in a bad 
fitment and can lead to vibration being transmitted through the frame. 
(Had this with my Cove Hustler. Switched hardware, noise went away)

Now we get to the serious side of things. After you've checked all this 
over, you may end up being in a position where the design of the frame 
itself causes the resonance that you are experiencing. Simply put, the 
frame can be thought of as a violin string and the brake behaves like a 
rosined bow going across it. In this case as the brake engages, it sends 
a resonance through the frame which is of a frequency that causes the 
bike to vibrate. This is something we see every couple of years from a 
variety of manufacturers and I expect to see more of in the future as 
well. I've seen the forums and fielded calls and emails about this, and 
I suspect that there may be something going on with the frame as the 
preponderance of the calls are related to the Trance X series. I'm 
hoping it's a simple matter, with at worse being poorly spec'ed shock 
mount hardware. Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be glad to 
help you out.

John Trusky | Technical & Warranty Support

Ph: 888.686.3472 | Fax: 414.462.0214 
6750 W. Florist Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53218

Hayes Bicycle Group | www.hayesbicycle.com


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

PatrickOrtega said:


> This first time maybe you get a close-to-perfect alignment (I doubt it, sorry) but, over time, this alignment will turn into mis-alignment, and BAM! noises again.


Unfortunately, I would have to aggree with you there since they are moving parts and there is wear with exposure to elements.



PatrickOrtega said:


> Nobody has tried to replace the CPS stuff (convex-concave washer assembly, aka mis-alignment device) with some spacers? I mean, NOT with a stack of washers but a true spacer.
> 
> I'm not proficient in the disc brake market, but i'll bet that most of the calipers out there have some kind of slotted holes, only to make adjustments possible.


I would like to try it if I could bind a good substitute. I'll have to take a look through my junk. The CPS stuff on these Juicy 7's seems to be overkill. To much adjustment, top and bottom. Maybe replacing with a solid spacer on the bottom would do but who knows.


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## fatdave (May 10, 2007)

I suspect caliper alignment is the culprit, like several others in this thread. I switched from J5s to xtr brakes, and still had the warble until I properly aligned the caliper. The xtr brakes used flat washers and shims, and I had to be pretty careful to get the alignment just right. But, I was very careful to align the J5 calipers too. 

So... What if the issue comes down to the hardware? Those conical washers are designed to allow you to adjust the orientation of the calipers, and maybe they don't always stay put, or something like that? Many people, me included, thought that they fixed the issue after a switch of rotor/pads which involves re-alignment. 

The xtr brakes just use regular flat washers and shims to do the job. This _seems_ more solid. Has anyone tried replacing the conical washers with flat washers? I didn't think of it until I switched, or I'd be trying that now.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Assuming my LBS won't be able to do anything to kill off the turkeys, I will be attempting to make my own solid spacers sometime this weekend. As you're all aware, it may take a few rides to 1) determine if my LBS's attempts had any effect and 2) determine if my homebrew solid spacers do any good. 

So no one has to search for this, I have Juicy Carbons on my '08 Scalpel 2.

I'll keep everyone updated.

-Pete


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

PimpinD said:


> WORLD HEADQUARTERS
> Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
> SRAM Corporation
> 1333 N. Kingsbury, 4th Floor
> ...


Thanks! I called and they listen good...They are not aware of a wide spread problem nor does it sound like they would offer that up. Doesn't surprise me, that would be a catastrophic business decision. They asked me to take the bike to the shop and have the shop call Sram and they would take care of it.
I think I'll pass on that one. Nothing the shop can do that I can't in this case and it would be a waste of time.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pedalphile said:


> Assuming my LBS won't be able to do anything to kill off the turkeys, I will be attempting to make my own solid spacers sometime this weekend. As you're all aware, it may take a few rides to 1) determine if my LBS's attempts had any effect and 2) determine if my homebrew solid spacers do any good.
> 
> So no one has to search for this, I have Juicy Carbons on my '08 Scalpel 2.
> 
> ...


I may try to put some solid spacers in too. We'll see what happens with that. If it doesn't work I'm just going to sell the rotors and pads avid sent me and sell the brakes to replace with Hayes Strokers.


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

oscarc said:


> Thanks! I called and they listen good...They are not aware of a wide spread problem nor does it sound like they would offer that up. Doesn't surprise me, that would be a catastrophic business decision. They asked me to take the bike to the shop and have the shop call Sram and they would take care of it.
> *I think I'll pass on that one. Nothing the shop can do that I can't in this case and it would be a waste of time.*


By doing that, you're perpetuating SRAM's denial/naivety of the issue. If everyone turned down their "offer", they'd figure it wasn't as big a problem as it is. You really should bring it in, if for nothing else, to make your LBS call SRAM and put some emphasis on the issue. It's the only way it's going to grab SRAM/Avid's attention.


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## Maadjurguer (Mar 22, 2008)

I had the same problem with my Juicy 3's (OEM) and tried all suggestions to no avail. Got some Juicy 7's and problem is solved. I will say that when I do get some noise (very minor, no vibration like the 3's), I remove the pads, lightly sand, apply brake pad cleaner, dry, reinstall and then loosen the mounting bracket bolts a little, spin the wheel, activate the brake a few times, hold the brake, lightly tighten the bracket bolts, spin the wheel again, activate the brake a few more times, tighten the bracket bolts some more and voila....no problems. I ride about 20-25 miles a day and probably do this routine every 2 weeks or so. It's worked for me for the past 6 weeks with no problems.


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## Sopranos (Aug 13, 2006)

Maadjurguer said:


> I had the same problem with my Juicy 3's (OEM) and tried all suggestions to no avail. Got some Juicy 7's and problem is solved. I will say that when I do get some noise (very minor, no vibration like the 3's), I remove the pads, lightly sand, apply brake pad cleaner, dry, reinstall and then loosen the mounting bracket bolts a little, spin the wheel, activate the brake a few times, hold the brake, lightly tighten the bracket bolts, spin the wheel again, activate the brake a few more times, tighten the bracket bolts some more and voila....no problems. I ride about 20-25 miles a day and probably do this routine every 2 weeks or so. It's worked for me for the past 6 weeks with no problems.


No offence, but you know what I'm doing while you are messing around with all those adjustments? Riding!

I, too, was part of this thread for a while with the Juicy 7's that came stock on my Stumpjumper Expert until I recently changed over to the new 08 XT's..... I just didn't want to deal with the headache of the rear brake.... nor do I feel like I should go through a weekly routine of adjusting the brakes that much.

Good luck with that system though.


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*I have those Hayes Brakes and they resonate on my 1FG but not on my Trance*



oscarc said:


> I bet these, don't howl. Note the solid looking caliper mount to caliper bracket. These look like they would not lean a whole lot if any. Also note the the number of washers and apparent bolt length.


I want to differentiate the squeal from the howl. The squeal is a higher pitches sound that all know. It's easy to hear which end of the bike this is coming from. The howl is a lower frequency resonance that seems to be felt through the frame and if you didn't know which brake was on, the sound would be omnidirectional. The following only addresses the latter problem.

There is a misconception here on causes and remedies for the howl. The resonance through the frame of the bike is due to sympathetic vibrations propagating through the caliper/brake mount. Every part has a natural resonant frequency. If the brakes are a source of resonating energy at an frequency and amplitude close to the frame's natural resonance, the frame will pick up the vibration and start resonating at the same frequency. It all feeds back and builds to the point where you can feel and hear it. The only way to reduce or eliminate this resonance is to eliminate the vibration or change the natural resonant frequency of some of the parts. This is why most of the people who changed brake parts altogether have had success.

It all starts at the pad/disc interface. If the frame's natural resonant frequency is not sympathetic to the caliper/disc, you'll probably just get a squeal or squeak isolated to the brake in question. Adjustments to alignment or changing pads or the disc rotor may help reduce the source of the vibration.

If you've aligned your brakes properly, have new pads, or tried shimming without luck here's quick test to see if you are having a sympathetic resonance. Add mass to one of the components. Try tightly duct taping or zip tie-ing a well padded weight to the top of the caliper or frame seat stay close to the disc tabs. Lead fishing sinkers or a big socket comes to mind. If this eliminates or greatly reduces the resonance, you know that some part has to change.

It will be interesting to know whether those who have this problem see it in the front or rear brake. My problem is in the rear. Hopefully this helps somebody troubleshoot their problem.

-Chuck

P.S. I first tried a very large socket and it worked. Went down to a smaller size and it dampens about 99% of the resonance. I've ordered a Hayes adapter which looks like it has less material and hopefully a different resonant frequency than the Avid adapter.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

MI_canuck said:


> By doing that, you're perpetuating SRAM's denial/naivety of the issue. If everyone turned down their "offer", they'd figure it wasn't as big a problem as it is. You really should bring it in, if for nothing else, to make your LBS call SRAM and put some emphasis on the issue. It's the only way it's going to grab SRAM/Avid's attention.


Yea, I here you...problem is that I'm just one guy. Big picture...just one guy with not a lot of time, two little girls, 1 1/2 and a 4 year old, and family responsibilties, like many others here. So time to me is very valuable to say the least. My bike has already been to a shops for brake noise but none has the long history of trial and error with my bike that I have.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*Thanks Chuck...*

I will ponder what you are saying...So far all are theories belonging to us are based on things we have all tried. I can drop the cash easily for a new set of brakes, but that would be wrong until I feel I have exhausted all options. I do believe there is an answer to this because the fact remains that there are also people who have no issues with there Avids.


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## jcc456 (Mar 5, 2007)

*Warranty update*

My LBS called SRAM about this problem and SRAM is sending out a completely new set of 2009's for my bike.

Interesting note: SRAM told my mechanic that they have had problems with about 15,000 !!!!! sets of the sevens and ultimates. They did not specify what the problem was - but did say that it has been fixed for 2009.

Gee, first I have heard of this and I called SRAM twice myself only to be told point blank that there was NO problem with their brakes.

I appreciate SRAM acting and warranting their product, but am still pissed that I have wasted about four weeks of riding this summer due to this problem.


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Try my test if you have resonance problems*



oscarc said:


> I will ponder what you are saying...So far all are theories belonging to us are based on things we have all tried. I can drop the cash easily for a new set of brakes, but that would be wrong until I feel I have exhausted all options. I do believe there is an answer to this because the fact remains that there are also people who have no issues with there Avids.


Yes. My 1FG originally had Avid BB5 mechanical brakes (160mm rear). There was absolutely no problem with resonance or squeal. I wanted more power with less input. Since the Hayes HFX9's worked so great with my Trance and Pricepoint.com was blowing them out cheap ($70/side), I made the switch. I tried everything except putting the old Avid rotor back on. Adding the mass to the caliper is the only thing that had a 100% fix.

I'll post with the results of switching to a Hayes adapter ($10).

Good luck.

-Chuck


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Take the disc brake survey*

Hi,

I created a poll to see what kind of issues people are having.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=447011

Thanks,
-Chuck


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*continued...*

Last night I had time to adjust the alignment of my calipers as I previously described. To summarize, I first removed my caliper, took out the pads and lightly sanded them. I can say that the pads appeared to have some really uneven contact with the lower edge of the pad having some flaking. There was also a thin groove shaped like the arc of the rotor on the lower edge of the pad. I sanded as best I could. I then reinstalled pads and caliper. I left the caliper bolts loose to allow the caliper free movement. Then did a couple series of brake applications till I felt I had a good rotor grab and that there was good alignment. Once this was done, I used a small rope around the brake handle to keep a tight pressure on the rear brake. Now, with both hands free I began to carefully snug the bolts while trying to make sure the cupped washers were evenly aligned and kind of pulling on the caliper bolt away from the rotor. (please note I did notice that if I just tightened the caliper bolt with out pulling it away from the rotor or holding the washers, the rotating of the caiper bolts seemed to want to lean inward and the caliper also seemed to start to want to lean inward). So I countered with my hand. The washers don't fit exactly snug around the bolt threads so there was definitly some careful aligning there with my fingers. Once both bolts we're done in the same manner, I removed the small rope from the brake handle. _I'll mention now that I have never been able to achieve the rotor not dragging on the pads in the first try when tigntening down the bolts. It's always taken a least 2-4 tries._ Back to the story...after removing the small rope I spun the rear wheel really expecting some pad drag on the rotor. There wasn't any, it was perfect...Lucky? maybe. Co-incidence? maybe. A good omen? hopefully...I spun and applied the brakes several times just to check things out. No drag. No noise, but that doesn't really mean anything yet.

I'll get to try things out tonight on my training ride. I have a steep, 1 1/2hour out and back climb that takes me approx 30 mins to descend back down. This is enough to really heat the brakes up and put them through a first test to see what happens. I''l report back after several of these same descents. Hopefully with some good news.

Thanks for your patience if you read this.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*I agree 100%*



chuckjoga said:


> There is a misconception here on causes and remedies for the howl. The resonance through the frame of the bike is due to sympathetic vibrations propagating through the caliper/brake mount. Every part has a natural resonant frequency. If the brakes are a source of resonating energy at an frequency and amplitude close to the frame's natural resonance, the frame will pick up the vibration and start resonating at the same frequency. It all feeds back and builds to the point where you can feel and hear it. The only way to reduce or eliminate this resonance is to eliminate the vibration or change the natural resonant frequency of some of the parts. This is why most of the people who changed brake parts altogether have had success.
> 
> It all starts at the pad/disc interface. If the frame's natural resonant frequency is not sympathetic to the caliper/disc, you'll probably just get a squeal or squeak isolated to the brake in question. Adjustments to alignment or changing pads or the disc rotor may help reduce the source of the vibration.
> 
> ...


I have been saying for some time that my particular issue happens to be with the brakes hitting the natural frequency of my rear swingarm. Thus resonating through the frame all the way up to the seat and bars. The only way to eliminate the resonance through the frame is 1) attempt some sort of isolaltion...not easy to do on something this small where weight is a concern 2) ensure your caliper vibes are 2x or more greater than the natural frequency of your seat/chain stay/swingarm/frame (resonance just doesn't occur when the base excitation frequency is roughly 2x> or more than the natural freq of the system of concern). Since that is awful hard to figure out and control...not practical unelss you do this: 3. Adjust the natural frequency of the system. Sounds harder than it is..but chuck nailed it on the head. Natural frequency is equal to the square root of the quotient of spring constant (think stiffness) divided by the effective mass. We can't really change the spring constant without changing the design or material spec. But, we can do like chuck did and add mass. If your source of the excitation frequency is say the pads vibrating...addling mass like chuck did effectively lowers the natural frequency of the caliper...thus if your excitation freq (the pads vibrating) stays constant and you lower the natural freq of the caliper or frame...you make it that much more likely that you can get your pad vibe freq to be >2x the natural feq of the caliper or frame...meaning no resonance transmitted through the frame. So, in short...good work Chuck!

I have also thought about spot drilling (not all the way thorugh) some of the pad backing material...got that idea from seeing an application where we had a gas turbine compressor blades vibration drop drastically when it was machined to create a 0.0050" air gap inside the blade...tremendous results.

Though I also do believe that rotor shape has something to do with making the pads vibrate to begin with. I just recently tried a hope 2 piece rotor on the back of my X-5. That theory worked well for a bout 100 miles or so of trail riding and the vibe was back with all of its original vigor.

Looking more closely at the calipers between my two bikes with J7's, the ones on the Giant were newer. Never had a prob on the Giant. They are the dark gray ones with the billet lever adjusting knob. The ones on the Ventana are light gray with plastic adjusting knobs. But, I had a billet frame adapter on the Ventana and a die or sand cast adapter on the Giant for the rear brake. Also, there is a slightly different polished metal spring clip that attaches in part to the outer surface of the top side of the caliper (not the thing that you sandwich between the pads) between the two. The newer one looks a little stiffer.

I swapped the brakes form the Giant to the Ventana last night and will be heading out in about an hour for a good long test ride. If all is well, will do another ride Saturday and a ride at Demo in Santa Cruz for what should be the final verdict on Monday. If it comes back...I may just say the hell with it all...I am going to spring for some Formula K24s.


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

chuckjoga said:


> I want to differentiate the squeal from the howl. The squeal is a higher pitches sound that all know. It's easy to hear which end of the bike this is coming from. The howl is a lower frequency resonance that seems to be felt through the frame and if you didn't know which brake was on, the sound would be omnidirectional. The following only addresses the latter problem.
> 
> There is a misconception here on causes and remedies for the howl. The resonance through the frame of the bike is due to sympathetic vibrations propagating through the caliper/brake mount. Every part has a natural resonant frequency. If the brakes are a source of resonating energy at an frequency and amplitude close to the frame's natural resonance, the frame will pick up the vibration and start resonating at the same frequency. It all feeds back and builds to the point where you can feel and hear it. The only way to reduce or eliminate this resonance is to eliminate the vibration or change the natural resonant frequency of some of the parts. This is why most of the people who changed brake parts altogether have had success.
> 
> ...


Great! Yours is a very scientific approach to the problem, and perhaps you don't solve it alone, but for me you are "the man". Heartily, I am expecting your method to work out.

Have a nice afternoon.


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

*I may or may not have resolved my turkey warble.*

I've been monitoring this thread for a while because I also have the turkey warble problem, both the noise and the vibration. I'm running a set of OEM J5s probably from 2006. I didn't start using them until late last fall and really didn't notice the problem until mid summer, but it very quickly progressed to a real problem vibration. I suspect the higher humidity may have been a contributing factor (though probably not the true cause). 
I wasn't going to put a whole lot of money into trying to fix these so I only tried a few things. First I cleaned and sanded the pads and rotors. That worked for a couple of miles, then it came back. I then swapped my front wheel from another bike that was running BB7s just to see if the rotors changed anything. It wasn't as bad with the rotors that came with my BB7s (not the same as the rotor that came with the juicys), and I definitely didn't like the way the J7 rotors felt on my bike with the BB7s, so I figured the rotors were at least part of the problem. 
Next I ordered a set of Alligator organic pads and a set of Alligator semi -mettalic pads along with a new alligator wavy rotor. I put the new alligator wavy rotor and the organic pads on the front and put a cheap Aztec rotor (it was new) and the semi-metallic pads on the back. Initially the warble was gone, but it very quickly came back on the rear (with the metallic pads). So then I ordered another set of Alligator organic pads and another Alligator wavy rotor for the back. Currently I have several rides on the front and one ride on the back, and everything is smooth and quiet (though time will tell if this is a permanent solution). 
The Alligator organic pads have noticeably less stopping power than the original semi-metallic pads, and I think that's why the warble is gone. The warble itself (the way I felt it) seemed to be the pads repeatedly grabbing and releasing on the rotors all on their own. The true source of the problem is likely in the calipers or the way they are mounted, but the pads and rotors also seem to contribute to the problem. Since the Alligator organics don't grab as well as the semi-metallics, they may eliminate or reduce the problem, but this is at the expense of stopping power. For me, this is fine because I never really liked the way the J5s grabbed anyway. I still spend quite a bit of time on bikes with mech discs, v-brakes, and cantis, and had a tough time adjusting to the super stopping power the J5s had. 
So at least for now, my J5s are performing the way I want them too. By the way, I chose the Alligator brand pads and rotors because they were cheap (I goth them at pricepoint), and because I was really impressed with some alligator brand cables I had recently purchased.

I also want to congratulate the OP on describing the problem as a "turkey warble". As soon as I read that, I immediately knew he was describing the same problem I was experiencing.


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## slacco (Mar 27, 2008)

*Solution (for Me At Least)*

DETACH THE BRAKE CABLE FROM THE CABLE MOUNTS!

My rear brakes had the horrible turkey warble since I bought them. After trying everything else mentioned in this thread with no success, I detached the brake cable from the bike mounts and it solved my problem immediately.

I can actually get them to "warble" on command again by holding the brake cable against the top tube with one hand and applying the rear brake with the other.

After thinking about this it seems to make sense. Most people have the problem with the rear brakes only (rear brake cable is longer and is typically attached to the bike more rigidly) and it doesn't seem to be a problem for cable operated disc brakes.

Mitch66 suggested in a previous post to attach the cable more securely to the bike. I did just the opposite, I isolated the cable from the bike.

Try this with your bike. It easy and it costs nothing.

I'm interested to see if this works for others.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

slacco said:


> DETACH THE BRAKE CABLE FROM THE CABLE MOUNTS!
> 
> My rear brakes had the horrible turkey warble since I bought them. After trying everything else mentioned in this thread with no success, I detached the brake cable from the bike mounts and it solved my problem immediately.
> 
> ...


Yah...I think your issue is different though. How could the brake cable agains the frame cause the nasty shuddering feeling and pulsating stopping performance?

Like I said before, I think there are two different noises in this thread. One is a definate "warble" noise and another (that my friend's J7's make) is a variable squeal/squeek or howl.

The warble that I've heard has always been accompanied by a pulsation that jerks the rider intermittently to a stop.

The Howl or squeal seem to not affect the braking performance...just annoying.


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## slickyricky2quicky (Aug 16, 2008)

I don't mind my J7 warble as long as it stays just an auditory issue. I will be worried when october rolls around and hunters are out though.


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## slacco (Mar 27, 2008)

chelboed said:


> Yah...I think your issue is different though. How could the brake cable agains the frame cause the nasty shuddering feeling and pulsating stopping performance?
> 
> Like I said before, I think there are two different noises in this thread. One is a definate "warble" noise and another (that my friend's J7's make) is a variable squeal/squeek or howl.
> 
> ...


I definitely had a loud warble along with vibration of the brakes that resonated through the entire frame of the bike. When I hold the brake cable in my hand while braking, I can feel the energy within the brake line and as soon as I touch it to my frame it vibrates the entire bike again.

I'm not sure how it gets so violent when the cable is in contact with the frame but it does. Try it and find out if it works for you, but I will definitely tell you that my issue was not just a squeeking or other annoying noise, it was significant.

For reference, I have 2008 Juicy 7's.


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## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

juicy update...

i've been shuffling brake bits and parts between my juicy 5's and bb7's.

clean sweep rotor 160 with regular pads, warble and vibrate. upgrade to organic pads and 185 rotors, squeal, but no warble. regular pads in back with 160, warble.

clean sweep 160 on bb7 with regular pads, squeak but no vibrate.

roundagon with regular/organic pads. nothing.

hope 185 discs with organic pads, no warble and no vibration...

this is giving me a headache.

my next brakes will be shimanos or hayes.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*About done with mine...*

If I can't find a local source for some Formula K24s by tomorrow, maybe I'll have to give the brake hose a try on my Monday ride...though I am skeptical on that one.

Here is what I have tried....two different version of J7's...the older light gray ones and the newer dark gray ones. Billet and cast caliper to frame adapters in both 185 and 160 mm. Organic and sintered pads. Roundagon rotors. Clean sweep rotors. A hope 2 piece rotor. Sometimes it would go away for a few rides...but it always came back with a vengance. Today, I tried the exact J7 setup that doesn't vibrate from my Giant NRS and put it on my Ventana X-5 and it was HORRIBLE! :madman: :madman: :madman:

But, that brake set was perfect on the NRS? I don't get it and I am tired of fussing with the brakes. :madmax: I have probably spent enough money on pads and rotors to have bought a whole new rear brake. First chance I can get my hands on at least a rear Formula K24 rear set...I am doing it.


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

slacco said:


> DETACH THE BRAKE CABLE FROM THE CABLE MOUNTS!
> 
> My rear brakes had the horrible turkey warble since I bought them. After trying everything else mentioned in this thread with no success, I detached the brake cable from the bike mounts and it solved my problem immediately.
> 
> ...


I suggested an equivalent procedure in one of my previous posts. Not the same thing but somehow it is related. What I did was modifying the routing of the hose TO the caliper by tilting the banjo fitting upwards. This way, I got more slack around the seat stay area, in the last segment of hose. It worked for me.

Actually, it worked out after changing pads and rotors. So, I can't hardly tell what solved my problem.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

slickyricky2quicky said:


> I don't mind my J7 warble as long as it stays just an auditory issue. I will be worried when october rolls around and hunters are out though.


Moose or Turkey season.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

So I went for a ride today and the brakes were pretty much fine. Just a little squeaky. We'll see if it stays that way.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

I was thinking... I haven't ever seen this turkey thing, but everyone i ride with that has juicies has them on hardtails. I just stuck some juicies on my rigid, no problems. Maybe its a full suspension thing?


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

*I have a GUARATEED FIX!!*

I took a 20 mile ride today and not one sound!!

The solution???? The TURKEY met the 20 guage!!


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

johnniewalker85 said:


> So I went for a ride today and the brakes were pretty much fine. Just a little squeaky. We'll see if it stays that way.


What did you change? Did you switch to solid spacers?

I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but one problem-free ride is not a valid indicator of whether the problem will return or not. I usually get at least one problem-free ride every time I realign the calipers.

I tried switching to solid spacers, but could not get the caliper aligned. Granted, I made the spacers myself out of brass that I had lying around (I didn't have the proper thickness of aluminum), and it was a bit of a half-azz attempt since I was pinched for time. My bike may also be one of those where alignment is difficult without some type of compensation. There's got to be something better than Avid's Try-and-Align system, though.

While I had the calipers off, I did notice a problem: the mounting surfaces on the caliper, of which there are two since it gets sandwiched in between the Try-to-Align hardware, are painted. This is not good. The paint is soft, and hadf lumped up in places on mine. I took a file to them to get the paint off those areas to yield a flat, metal surface. Although I don't expect this to fully address the problem, the paint can only make things worse, not better.

-Pete


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

nick59349 said:


> I took a 20 mile ride today and not one sound!!
> 
> The solution???? The TURKEY met the 20 guage!!


A lot nicer looking than my fix, but probably $$$. What size rotors are those? Did you upsize? I was thinking that a larger size rotor would also change the resonant frequency of the whole system and eliminate the problem.

-Chuck


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

chuckjoga said:


> A lot nicer looking than my fix, but probably $$$. What size rotors are those? Did you upsize? I was thinking that a larger size rotor would also change the resonant frequency of the whole system and eliminate the problem.
> 
> -Chuck


I thought the larger size would fix the problem as well, it reduced it but it was still bad enough to ditch them. I tried the 165mm as well and it was the worst. I have the 200mm Formula on there now. I think the price was worth it not to have put up with that aweful vibration anymore.:cryin:


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## Buzzard09 (Aug 30, 2008)

*turkey worble noise problem*

Ya, I have Juicy 5's and that happened to my rear brake. It doesn't happen any more for some reason, but my brother has Hayes Stroker Trail brakes and he had a 6" rotor on the rear and dhis did the exact same thing. He got a 7" rotor and an 8" for the front and for some reason that has not happened with the seven.

But supposedly Avid brakes are notoriously noisy... my friend has Codes and they are not incredibly loud but sound horrible!

I think cleaning them with rubbing alcohol or just letting them brake in more would fix it.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pedalphile said:


> What did you change? Did you switch to solid spacers?
> 
> I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but one problem-free ride is not a valid indicator of whether the problem will return or not. I usually get at least one problem-free ride every time I realign the calipers.
> 
> ...


I didn't really do anything which was why it was surprising. I'm just going to deal with the problem until I have enough money for new brakes. I don't have the money to waste trying all these "fixes." If Avid isn't going to own up to making a terrible product, I'm not going to waste my time dealing with them ever again.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Buzzard09 said:


> Ya, I have Juicy 5's and that happened to my rear brake. It doesn't happen any more for some reason, but my brother has Hayes Stroker Trail brakes and he had a 6" rotor on the rear and dhis did the exact same thing. He got a 7" rotor and an 8" for the front and for some reason that has not happened with the seven.
> 
> But supposedly Avid brakes are notoriously noisy... my friend has Codes and they are not incredibly loud but sound horrible!
> 
> I think cleaning them with rubbing alcohol or just letting them brake in more would fix it.


You obviously haven't read this whole thread, nor do I expect you to, but don't you think one of the 9,000+ viewers of the thread would have thought of cleaning the rotors with rubbing alcohol?


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Stop blaming the brake manufacturer*



johnniewalker85 said:


> I didn't really do anything which was why it was surprising. I'm just going to deal with the problem until I have enough money for new brakes. I don't have the money to waste trying all these "fixes." If Avid isn't going to own up to making a terrible product, I'm not going to waste my time dealing with them ever again.


If you're getting a resonance or vibration that propagates through the frame, it's an incompatibility problem. If the brakes are OEM, then the bike manufacturer did not do enough testing and should remedy the problem as a defect. There's no way any brake manufacturer can claim 100% compatibility with every frame out there.

I posted the test earlier. No money involved. Take a heavy weight and zip tie it to the caliper. If it instantly stops the problem, you can be sure that your brakes, frame, and even wheel are incompatible. Some component has to change. Maybe a part that's cheaper than buying a whole new set of brakes. But it's a crap shoot for sure. Even buying a new set of brakes is taking a chance. If you buy new brakes, work with your LBS to make sure that you can return them if they don't work out.

I can tell you that Hayes HFX 9 (6-inch) are not compatible with the 2008 Cannondale F29 Caffeine 3 (1FG singlespeed) but work great as OEM brakes on my Giant Trance. Does that make them bad brakes? Until I can figure out what to do, I have a big socket taped/zip-tied to my rear caliper. Looks funny, but the brakes work and I've eliminated the resonance problem.

-Chuck


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## BenR (Mar 31, 2007)

My LBS wants to put 6 inch instead of 8 inch rotors and shave the pads as a final effort to get these juicy 7's to work. The 8 inch is too big for my XC bike and the rear triangle does have carbon stays...so maybe a smaller rotor and shaving the pads will help...if not the cost to get these to work they are going to put towards a set of 08 XT's I have on hold. they break great, I just cannot take it...ruins my ride...


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

BenR....I put a 160 Galfer rotor and pads on the back of my HiFi to get rid of the resonating howl. It came with an Avid 160. I've had silence for 260+ miles. I hope it continues.


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## pathogen (Aug 16, 2008)

I bought an '08 Rockhopper Disc about 3 weeks ago and now I have a turkey stuck somewhere in the back of my bike.. The bike came with Avid BB5's. I've tried adjusting the pads/caliper to no avail so far. Hopefully there will be a fix!!

The warble and vibration happen from the time i depress the lever until the pads lock the rotor, it seems to work fine but man its annoying and unsettling especially when descending down a rocky slope!

I am going to see what my LBS has to say later this week..


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

I took it to an LBS thats near my work, i know the guys sorta, actually bought a couple of bikes from them but not my latest. Anyways one of the guys runs Juicy 5s and i mentioned the noise, he said to bring the bike by on my way home. So i stopped by, he did some adjusts and showed me some cool features on the brakes (the click out on the front brake). and as of right now and the last 4 miles no noise or vibrations. Im going on a 22miles ride when i finish typing this and we will see how they run.....


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

PimpinD said:


> I took it to an LBS thats near my work, i know the guys sorta, actually bought a couple of bikes from them but not my latest. Anyways one of the guys runs Juicy 5s and i mentioned the noise, he said to bring the bike by on my way home. So i stopped by, he did some adjusts and showed me some cool features on the brakes (the click out on the front brake). and as of right now and the last 4 miles no noise or vibrations. Im going on a 22miles ride when i finish typing this and we will see how they run.....


What did the guy do to fix the brakes?


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

the same stuff, re aligned, cleaned, tightened... we shall see....


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*Update...I think my brakes may be fixed now.*

Did my first ride after aligning my rear caliper as previously mentioned. No noise at all from the rear on the long steep descent. Brakes did heat up though as expected. Only got little squeaks from the front. Sound coming from the rear was a nice clean friction sound.

Decided to give the fronts the same treatment. Rode them. On the long descent, got a less then a handful of bird chirps from the front. Still nothing from the rear.

Did another ride yesterday, same long descent. Pretty quiet with only the clean friction sound. Carefully realigning my calipers, more specifically the mounting hardware/caliper bolts, seems to make a big difference. No turkeys, howling, vibration, or resonance at all. No sign of anything coming back either.

I think caliper and caliper mounting hardware is the main cause of everyone's issue. I'll report back after a few more rides or as soon as I start getting noise, if that happens.

good luck to everyone else!

P.S. the descent I ride on is Mount Lukens. I start at 1,200 ft and climb to 5,070 in 6 miles.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

oscarc said:


> I think caliper and caliper mounting hardware is the main cause of everyone's issue. I'll report back after a few more rides or as soon as I start getting noise, if that happens.


No it isn't, what you say only applies to bird chirping and none of the others.Shimano and Hayes have much simpler and easier to keep aligned mounting hardware and they still get turkey gobble, resonance, howling and vibration.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> No it isn't, what you say only applies to bird chirping and none of the others.Shimano and Hayes have much simpler and easier to keep aligned mounting hardware and they still get turkey gobble, resonance, howling and vibration.


Negative ghost rider...besides the other noises, I had the horribly loud howling. Got vibration maybe twice early on but went away. No issues so far.

I also thought this thread revolved around Avids??? It seems that there are ALOT less issues with the other brake manufacturers, unless you can point me to the Shimano and Hayes threads that have over 250 post with people trying to fix their noisy brake issues.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

oscarc said:


> Negative ghost rider...besides the other noises, I had the horribly loud howing. Got vibration maybe twice early on but went away. No issues so far.
> 
> I also thought this thread revolved around Avids??? It seems that there are ALOT less issues with the other brake manufacturers, unless you can point me to the Shimano and Hayes threads that have over 250 post with people trying to fix their noisy brake issues.


There are a lot more people riding with Avid brakes than Shimano XT's or Hayes Storker's so it follows through that the amount of people who have problems will be more and there is actually a thread with around 3 pages of people having problems with the Hayes Stoker's and several other threads on the Giant forum about the same problems with them.

Also it's the amount of users not the 250 posts they've done that counts.


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## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

I just had to realign my rear caliper (juicy ultimate on Stumpjumper expert) to accommodate a wheel change and one thing that may be escaping the notice of the less mechanically inclined is that there is a little finesse required when re-tightening the bolts, if you just clamp the brake lever down and start tightening up the mounting hardware you will probably not be very well alligned.
There is a lot of flex in the spacers and mounting posts, you need to VERY CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY tighten each screw in equal increments without twisting or putting torquing pressure on the caliper in any way.
As soon as the screws started feeling the least bit tight I started taking turns tightening the screws only a tiny fraction of a turn and moving to the other, alternating until everything is tightened down.

Most folks here probably already know this, just mentioning for the mechanically challenged.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> There are a lot more people riding with Avid brakes than Shimano XT's or Hayes Storker's


And where was this survey conducted? Link please...



EGF168 said:


> so it follows through that the amount of people who have problems will be more and there is actually a thread with around 3 pages of people having problems with the Hayes Stoker's


Hayes Strokers as in one model??? This Avid thread seems to include multiple Avid models??? are you comparing apples to oranges? Maybe the other Hayes models are ok.



EGF168 said:


> several other threads on the Giant forum about the same problems with them.


Dont you think this narrows it down to a Giant bike issue? If you told me that it's posted on the Cannondale, Felt, Ibis, Jamis, Kona, Santa Cruz, Litespeed forums, then your statement holds water. Right now it doesn't.

Bottom line, my issues seem to be solved and look promising...and that's all I care about.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

ChuckO said:


> I just had to realign my rear caliper (juicy ultimate on Stumpjumper expert) to accommodate a wheel change and one thing that may be escaping the notice of the less mechanically inclined is that there is a little finesse required when re-tightening the bolts, if you just clamp the brake lever down and start tightening up the mounting hardware you will probably not be very well alligned.
> There is a lot of flex in the spacers and mounting posts, you need to VERY CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY tighten each screw in equal increments without twisting or putting torquing pressure on the caliper in any way.
> As soon as the screws started feeling the least bit tight I started taking turns tightening the screws only a tiny fraction of a turn and moving to the other, alternating until everything is tightened down.
> 
> Most folks here probably already know this, just mentioning for the mechanically challenged.


Halleluya!!!! that is exactley what I've explained somewhere in one of my last posts. But, I don't think it is as obviouse to others as you might think. I bet most folks don't know this and not having to do anything with being mechanically challenged. Just that you would think the hardware would stay in place with the brake lever down.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Yes there have been problems on Stroker Carbon's, Stroker Trail's and Stroker Ride's, very few people have the Stroker Gram or Ace yet so there are no problems with them yet. Previous brakes by Hayes like the EC have had far more problems for the amount of brakes sold than Avid ever will. I do not need to prove that there are more people riding Juicy's than XT's or any of the Stroker models because it is plainly obvious if you look at people bikes on here and the amount of bikes that come stock with them. And if you want to get down to it then yes there have been quite a few issues on Ibis, Specialized and a lot of other bikes with Stroker's, I just used the Giant forum as an example because I'm on there quite a bit and Giant is one of the main companies that specs Stroker's on bikes.

You are drifting away from my original point that you are wrong to say it is a simple as a mounting hardware problem so lets get back on topic please.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> You are drifting away from my original point that you are wrong to say it is a simple as a mounting hardware problem so lets get back on topic please.


You need to re-read the previous posts...The problem is the mounting hardware does not stay put when tightening the bolts down. The caliper does not self align as it's supposed to as a result. ChuckO had great wording above. A misaligned caliper will create a world of problems. With out first having a correctly aligned caliper, anything else you do will not matter. Get it now?


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

oscarc said:


> Just that you would think the hardware would stay in place with the brake lever down.


But the wrench is more mightly than the juice (pun intended).

This is why I wanted to experiment with solid spacers. There is indeed a big difference between having the caliper centered and having it aligned, and I think most of us usually suffice to have it centered and not rubbing. Small amounts of play in the HW while under load could easily cause the symptoms we all seem to experience.

As ChuckO pointed out, I've had the best performance and most time w/o the turkeys when aligning very, very slowly. I also pull the lever as hard as I dare to attempt to decrease the chances that the caliper shifts while torquing it down.

I think it's also important to make sure the mounting surfaces are properly faced. The painted surface is defintely not an optimum surface to hold the caliper in place. In the case of mine, I could easily see where the paint had bunched up under load, which would not only interfere with alignment attempts, it indicated that the caliper had, at some point, migrated out of alignment while mounted.

-Pete


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

You need to reread what I have said on here. I'm well aware of how useless Avid's tri alignment system is, I had Juicy 5's, I was pointing out that your wrong to assume this is the main cause of turkey gobble, resonance, vibration and howling, it may make those problems worse than they would otherwise be on other brakes but the only problem the mounting hardware can be directly blamed for is bird chirping and pads rubbing.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> You need to reread what I have said on here. I'm well aware of how useless Avid's tri alignment system is, I had Juicy 5's, I was pointing out that your wrong to assume this is the main cause of turkey gobble, resonance, vibration and howling, it may make those problems worse than they would otherwise be on other brakes but the only problem the mounting hardware can be directly blamed for is bird chirping and pads rubbing.


I give up...


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## Floggus (Feb 11, 2006)

My experience with this issue is that it is rotor specific. I run juicy 7s and it came with 7/6 roundagon rotors. They howled constantly. I tried different pads, cleaning, adjusting and could not get the howl to go away. For the most part it didn't bother me unless I was poaching some single track and the brakes were giving up my position too easily. After overheating the brakes a few times, I decided I needed bigger rotors. Using the same everything except rotors and adaptors, I switched to 8" G2 Cleansweeps front and rear. I have not heard a peep from them since.


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## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

I was just pointing out that without careful attention to how you tighten down the mounting hardware even with the caliper compressed around the rotor there is enough flex and play in the spacers and posts that lateral pressure to the caliper from uneven tightening of the bolts could very well result in the caliper being a few thousandths out of alignment. 
Small enough amount that you'll never see it, but enough to cause vibration.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

ChuckO said:


> I was just pointing out that without careful attention to how you tighten down the mounting hardware even with the caliper compressed around the rotor there is enough flex and play in the spacers and posts that lateral pressure to the caliper from uneven tightening of the bolts could very well result in the caliper being a few thousandths out of alignment.
> Small enough amount that you'll never see it, but enough to cause vibration.


Yes, what I said in post #113 initially.


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## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

oscarc said:


> Yes, what I said in post #113 initially.


Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread.
But on my new stumpy I noticed a vibration from the rear brake the first time I rode it, after the first ride the rear rotor was out of true. Truing up that rotor seemed to mostly cure it but there was still a very small vibration and a little squeal. When I put the Mavic Crosstrails on the bike the rear rotor was fine at first but again after the first ride was rubbing the pads and was slightly out of true. After looking at the methods for aligning the caliper I loosened up the four mounting bolts and had my wife hold the brake lever compressed while I re tightened them in the manner I described above. 
Just took it on the trail for a quick evaluation. A half mile descent gave enough time to try slamming the brakes on a few time, riding them hard a bit, and generally throw a little abuse at them.
Problem appears solved, but after reading many of the posts here I guess time will tell if that was the final solution.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

ChuckO said:


> Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread.
> But on my new stumpy I noticed a vibration from the rear brake the first time I rode it, after the first ride the rear rotor was out of true. Truing up that rotor seemed to mostly cure it but there was still a very small vibration and a little squeal. When I put the Mavic Crosstrails on the bike the rear rotor was fine at first but again after the first ride was rubbing the pads and was slightly out of true. After looking at the methods for aligning the caliper I loosened up the four mounting bolts and had my wife hold the brake lever compressed while I re tightened them in the manner I described above.
> Just took it on the trail for a quick evaluation. A half mile descent gave enough time to try slamming the brakes on a few time, riding them hard a bit, and generally throw a little abuse at them.
> Problem appears solved, but after reading many of the posts here I guess time will tell if that was the final solution.


Whew!! I don't blame you...super long thread. And I'm glad you made the same observation. So it appears we both did the same thing, aligning the calipers/hardware, very carefully. Hope it worked for both of us, so far so good though for me...If things change or not down the line I'll update and consider my issue a done deal.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

oscarc said:


> unless you can point me to the Shimano and Hayes threads that have over 250 post with people trying to fix their noisy brake issues.


Keep in mind that with 278 posts, there have been 84 different posters of which 19 have made 184 of the posts.


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## kaplun (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi,

I have read the would thread (applauses!!!) 

I have the turkey problem in my back brake in my FS Tandem with avid code 203 mm. The problem I have got is the turkey noise such as described in post number 1 of the thread. That means: the noise is accompanied by such vibrations that you get almost thrown out of the bike.

I have tried the following without success:

1. Changing the clean sweep rotors by roundagons and then by shimano Xt rotors. Fail.

2. Changing pads to organic: Fail but the problem gets a little bit less. The vibrations are not as strong as to throw you out of the bike, but as just as strong as to make shiver your teeth.

I am going either to try the proposed solution of isolating the frame from the hose (because it is simple) or throw the brake altogether.
Before doing either of this, however I would like to ask this question:

*Has anyone tried to isolate the hose from the frame (by interposing neprene or something) and still failed?. *It seems to me that all the ones who tried this (apparently stupid) solution have succeded in solving the problem.

Thanks to all of you for your help and specially to the one initiating the thread!!!


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

kaplun said:


> *Has anyone tried to isolate the hose from the frame (by interposing neprene or something) and still failed?. *It seems to me that all the ones who tried this (apparently stupid) solution have succeded in solving the problem.


Yes and no. I get the gobbles intermittently front and rear. My bike has a Lefty on the front, and the front hose has zero contact with the frame. There are two fairly compliant plastic hooks on the Lefty that keep the cable from just flapping in the breeze, but these hooks are not strong enough to couple a vibration into the bike. The vibration from my front is in all likelihood coming through the hub via the rotor.

While I do believe hose resonance could contribute to the problem on some bikes, and addressing that aspect could make the problem tolerable on those bikes, I don't believe it is the sole cause. I believe the root cause is how the pads are making contact with the rotor, suggesting alignment as the main culprit.

I almost always get a problem free ride or two after a careful realignment, but the turkeys always come back. Something must be migrating with use, or normal wear itself is resulting in a change to how the pads make contact.

-Pete


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## bbgobie (Apr 20, 2006)

I would like to see a sold rotor tested.
I've always wondered if it has to do with pockets of air trapped in the rotor and briefly pushing back on the pads causing a vibration.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

bbgobie said:


> I would like to see a sold rotor tested.
> I've always wondered if it has to do with pockets of air trapped in the rotor and briefly pushing back on the pads causing a vibration.


I really doubt that the holes/slots cause the problem. If it did, almost every brake system out there would have the problem.

However, I have to admit that the Galfer rotor that silenced my J7 rear brake is solid.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

*Update...*

yet another successful ride. 1/2 hour descent and no noise. Tried to work the brakes too. It's been great now! I'll consider mine fixed!

good luck to everyone else!


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Try #3: Add mass to the caliper. So simple to try.*



kaplun said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have read the would thread (applauses!!!)
> 
> ...


Why don't you try the hose isolation trick and let us know what happens?

Without sounding too insulting, you didn't read or understand any of my posts. If your rotors are aligned and not warped, it's obvious to me that a resonance is building up. Even though I'm not a physicist, this a very simple and explainable phenomenon. Dismissing this outright will lead you down the shame spiral. 

Have you ever had your car windows and/or sunroof open at just the right size and had the resonance build up to the point where your eardrums felt like they were going to explode? Changing your car's speed or configuration of the window openings reduces or eliminates the resonance of the air inside your vehicle. Same principle.

-Chuck


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

So last time I rode I didn't have the turkeys. Today they were back in full force. I think I wasn't going fast enough last time for the turkeys to howl.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

Rode a trail today, noise came back but im pretty sure it was from dirt.... gonna see aftercleaning them with alcohol tomorrow how they sound on my ride to work...


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

johnniewalker85 said:


> So last time I rode I didn't have the turkeys. Today they were back in full force. I think I wasn't going fast enough last time for the turkeys to howl.


Mine warbled worse and shuddered terrible the slower I went.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

*So far, I've fixed my issue:*


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## Triple T (Jul 26, 2008)

I have 5 rides on my latest "fix". I still get an occasional gobble here and there, but I don't have the vibration throughout the frame that feels like the bike is coming apart under me. I'm probably going to jinx myself, but unless the horrid vibrations return, I'll consider my problem solved.

I was getting the gobble and vibration from my rear brake. I used 4 stainless steel washers to try and isolate & change the interaction between my frame and caliper/adapter. I used 2 underneath the head of the adapter bolts against the frame, and 2 between the adapter and frame. I also used the old adapter that came stock with the BB5s on my bike. 

Hope everyone else finds a solution.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

ill be putting hayes stroker carbons on in the near future any ways...


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I put the Codes on my bike and the problem is still there after "bed-in".

I have a theory...

I think my frame wasn't designed for such powerful stoppers. Maybe it's flexing under the pressure and causing things to be misligned.

The front is fine though.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

road a very muddy / wet trail on sunday, has a little noise right away, but as soon as it dried it was fine. Cleaned off the brakes and rotors when i got home and road to work the next day no noise. Im still going to install the hayes stroker carbons when my new handle bar gets in...

I have a hifi deluxe with a carbon rear , so im not sure what frame you are using but id think if the hifi could handle it, any bike could...


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## compression (Nov 14, 2006)

Add me to the list. 2007 Specialized enduro SL.
Juicy 7's on front and back (OEM).
The rear howls when it gets hot, exactly like the everyone elses.
I have had the bike about 15 months and it just started doing it.
Called SRAM, they were about as helpful as pile of dog $h!t and claimed to be totally clueless to the problem "have you your bike shop look at it"... yeah thats great, but how the hell do they get the brakes hot in the bike stand?
I guess I will tear the rears apart, try a new rotor, pads, and bleed and align the caliper.
Its a horrible problem, and I cannot just ignore it.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

I can be walking my bike out from the garage and the brake makes noise when I pull the lever to drag the brake. Mine aren't getting noisy from overheating, they just make noise all the time.


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## JChasse (Jul 21, 2008)

chelboed said:


> I put the Codes on my bike and the problem is still there after "bed-in".
> 
> I have a theory...
> 
> ...


I almost wonder if there's something to this, combined with the resonant frequency ideas. Seems any flex in a rear triangle may not only cause misalignment, but could start an oscillation that turns resonant and brings the poultry a-runnin'?

To my mind this may explain why somewhat less powerful organic pads partly mitigate the problem. Maybe?

Anyway, it's flat-out painful to read 12+ pages of problems. To the point that it's scaring me away from Avid discs altogether. I'm seriously thinking of cancelling an open order for some Elixir CRs and going for some Hayes Strokers to put my mind at ease.


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## kaplun (Sep 5, 2008)

chuckjoga said:


> Why don't you try the hose isolation trick and let us know what happens?
> 
> Without sounding too insulting, you didn't read or understand any of my posts. If your rotors are aligned and not warped, it's obvious to me that a resonance is building up. Even though I'm not a physicist, this a very simple and explainable phenomenon. Dismissing this outright will lead you down the shame spiral.
> 
> -Chuck


Hi Chuck. I think you are absolutely right about the resonance phenomenon. I just thought that the resonance could be (at least partly) being transmitted to the frame through the hose-frame contact points. Anyway, I have now insulated the cable with neoprene. If I am lucky (with weather permiting, because it seems like winter is coming fast here, and if we can find a babysitter) I can get my wife this weekend on the bike and try the tandem out. I will let you know what happens. I might as well go to a shop and get longer stainless steel screws (to also try at the same time as you suggest and change the mass of the caliper system, because I have noticed the screws already present are quite short and do not cover all the thread, so it could be relatively easy to change the mass by getting longer screws). Let us see. If it works I will post. Otherwise I will do like clever *chelboed* and pack my codes away.


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## GrooveColo (Sep 19, 2008)

*Juicy Elixir-C so far adds S.S.*

FWIW, band new 2008-2009 Yeti 575 Race here with 165mm rear and Juicy Elixir-R. Only one ride under my belt so far and damn that as nasty of a vibration as I ever want to feel near my ass!

I'll attempt more brake-in time but, right now, I'm not feeling optimistic. My local shop has the CR versions on order. Hopefully any time now but it might be as long as a month or more. I might have to go back to shimano xt/xtr. Probably should have stayed there from the get go.

Just thought I'd offer in my 2c to all this..

Keep groovin, ya'll!


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Well, another week on the Codes and they're getting a little quieter. The Shriek is nearly gone. I took them out two days ago and just rode up and down a local steep hill and rode the brakes the whole way. They finally got to be super quiet and smooth while they were warm, but as soon as they got cool...they became a little noisy again. A couple more rides and I'm finally seeing a silver lining (I think).

We'll see.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

GrooveColo said:


> FWIW, band new 2008-2009 Yeti 575 Race here with 165mm rear and Juicy Elixir-R. Only one ride under my belt so far and damn that as nasty of a vibration as I ever want to feel near my ass!
> 
> I'll attempt more brake-in time but, right now, I'm not feeling optimistic. My local shop has the CR versions on order. Hopefully any time now but it might be as long as a month or more. I might have to go back to shimano xt/xtr. Probably should have stayed there from the get go.
> 
> ...


Keep updates coming on the Elixirs:thumbsup:


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*Think I found my problem*

Yep, I think I found the problem with my particular setup. I have posted here before a couple of times...mostly theorizing on the vibes. But, a couple of folks seem to think it is all in the alignment of the pads/caliper in relation to the rotor.

I think that has been my particular problem. Having never had a problem in the first two years but randomly having it show up an not go away for the last year, I was about done with the brakes. I ordered up an Elixir CR for the back on my Ventana. Trying to set it up last night...I couldn't get the caliper positioned so that it had clearance between the rotor and the pads on both sides (much easier to see on the Elixir BTW). No mater what I did, I couldn't get the leading edge of the outboard pad off the rotor. I even tried elongating the forward mounting hole to allow me to twist the caliper on a bit more.

I think my rear brake mounting tab has always had a slight bend to it, but this is what it looks like now:








[/URL][/IMG]

Roughly, the very top is the forward mount, and the lower hump/ear is the aft mount. Can you see where I might have a bit of a problem lining up the caliper?

I'm going to drop it off at the LBS to see if they can face it (looks a bit far off for facing to work, but I'll give it a try).

And, FWIW, I didn't ride the Ventana today, I rode my Giant which has J7s as well. Never had a hint of a problem on that bike (swapped brakes back and forth between the two a couple of times). I haven't ridden the Giant in a while and it was nearly pure pleasure as far as braking performance went on the Giant.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

sam-eye-am said:


> Yep, I think I found the problem with my particular setup. I have posted here before a couple of times...mostly theorizing on the vibes. But, a couple of folks seem to think it is all in the alignment of the pads/caliper in relation to the rotor.
> 
> I think that has been my particular problem. Having never had a problem in the first two years but randomly having it show up an not go away for the last year, I was about done with the brakes. I ordered up an Elixir CR for the back on my Ventana. Trying to set it up last night...I couldn't get the caliper positioned so that it had clearance between the rotor and the pads on both sides (much easier to see on the Elixir BTW). No mater what I did, I couldn't get the leading edge of the outboard pad off the rotor. I even tried elongating the forward mounting hole to allow me to twist the caliper on a bit more.
> 
> ...


Hate to burst your bubble, but I bet it doesn't help. The Tri-Align system would compensate for it.

Has anyone tried Shimano rotors? (No slots...just little holes)(v-cuts....just smooth arc'ing outside edge)


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*And I bet...*



chelboed said:


> Hate to burst your bubble, but I bet it doesn't help. The Tri-Align system would compensate for it.
> 
> Has anyone tried Shimano rotors? (No slots...just little holes)(v-cuts....just smooth arc'ing outside edge)


Different rotors, while they may be a bit of temporary cure if you swap new ones in, won't cure your problem. And who's to say that when you swap the new rotors in and align the caliper to the new rotor that you don't end up with a better caliper alignment than you previously have...thus changing two variables at once and not really knowing which one solved it?

I have tried 4 different rotors, 2 different caliper to frame adapters, sintered pads, organic pads, and 1 organic and 1 sintered pad at the same time. Nothing worked. And, there are some avid rotors out there with only holes and no slots...I have tried them...again, no luck.

For my problem, there isn't enough adjustment in the tri-align system to bring the pads parallel with respect to the rotor. Like I said in my post above..I even elongated the hole in the forward part of the bracket to try and give me a bit more adjustment to swing the forward/top portion of the caliper more outboard with respect to the lower/aft mount...again, to try and get that leading edge of the outboard pad off of the rotor and allow the pads to be positioned parallel to the rotor.

With the way the tabs are on my frame in its current state (the tabs are not in the same vertical plane nor are they parallel to each other), there is not enough adjustment in the caliper to allow me to align it such that the pads are in fact parallel to the rotor...thus probably the cause or at least a major contributor to my problem. The bike is now at the LBS to have them try and face the tabs. If too much material has to be removed to make them parallel in the same vertical plane...I guess it is time for new swingarm for me.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Well good luck with it and keep us updated.


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## kaplun (Sep 5, 2008)

*Report on last weekends ride*

Hi,

Bad news from last weekend ride.

I have insulated the cables from the frame of my tandem and have added mass to the
caliper (by using longer screws with heavy waschers at the top) and no succes.

Both solutions did not work for me.

We tried on a 1200 m downhill with 18% average slope (and maximums up to 25%) that took us 35 minutes. The warble on the back brake was so bad that I had to use the front brake for most of the time. As a result at the end of the downhill the front disc was so badly warped that now it hits on both sides of the caliper. So I will have to dump this disc too. Luckily I have enough spares from the back experiments. I have to say these damned code brakes must be otherwise quite good, because despite the overcooked warped front disc, the front brake was still holding us on!!!!

So far I have tried:

1. Realigning the caliper
2. Changing Rotors and pads (xt rotors, cleansweep, roundagons, organic pads)
3. Insulating the hose from the frame
4. Adding mass to the caliper (I do not know whether I added enough mass, but the problem did not get any less).

My next step is to dump my codes away. I give up. Good luck to the heros that continue.

Thank you very much for your help and suggestions!


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

My LBS is going to attempt to fight the good fight and call Avid. Not surprisingly, they've seen several other bikes equipped with Avids with this same problem. Assuming the LBS has no luck with Avid, I will ask them to get C'dale involved. My bike is essentially brand new and has had this problem since day one - C'dale is ultimately responsible for delivering a bike that works properly.

-Pete


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Add me to the list. Rig 29er (Started another thread, oops) upgraded to avid elixers. I am just awe struck that a brand new system like the elixers could suffer the exact same problem.

Do they just refuse to learn over there?


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

*A thought and possible idea....*

OK, it seems that it is an alignment issue...possibly. Has anyone tried putting a credit card or business cards on either side of the rotor before tightening the mounting bolts down on the brake caliper? It my tired state of thought, that seems like it might help align the caliper with the rotor. Thoughts on this? Has anyone tried it?


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

Klein_man said:


> Has anyone tried it?


Yep. That and everything else in this thread. The only solution for me was to buy new brakes. They work GREAT too, even when wet, not a peep.

I feel for you though, it took me three months before I finally threw in the towell.

Bob


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## SAR13 (Jul 8, 2008)

Like many here, I have been convinced that the howling (J5s on an '08 575) was mainly an alignment issue. I have cleaned and re-aligned. I've called Avid and switched out the rear rotor and pads. Each time I get a few rides of relative silence and then the turkey comes back. 

Recently I tried adding/changes the washers with very little success. Then, just for fun, I ran the cable outside the seat stay. This actually put a little torque on the caliper so alignment was very difficult and I expected more Turkeys than ever. 

Surprisingly, two rides later, the turkeys are gone. Now they might come back as they have before but if this fix actually works it really changes my thoughts on the cause of the problem.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I have narrowed my warbling down.

Avid sent me Codes as replacement for my Juicy 5's. As soon as they bed in, they warble.

I talked to SRAM and they said that it still sounds like an alignment issue. I put it all back together and gripped my rear brake lever, rocked the bike forward with pressure on the cranks, and looked back at the frame. As I suspected from a long time ago...my left seat stay and chainstay are both flexing inward and forward from the torque and torsion of the disc brakes. My frame doesn't have any extra welded gusset or support that goes from one to the other.

When rocking the bike forward with braking pressure on it, the actual caliper rotates inward and forward causing the pads to contact the rotor at a bad angle and digging into the rotor vents. I can even see a little slack in the brake hose from frame flex as I rock it forward.

Now I can sleep at night. I've found the issue.

I'm contacting my frame Mfgr today about getting a replacement frame with a little more "beef" on it.

-new pads didn't help
-new rotors didn't help
-brand new brakes didn't help
-frame flexing under braking pressure

My old frame was tougher and didn't make the warble noise with my Juicy 5's.

My new frame is more "XC" oriented and makes the dreaded warble.


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## SAR13 (Jul 8, 2008)

chelboed said:


> the actual caliper rotates inward and forward causing the pads to contact the rotor at a bad angle and digging into the rotor vents. I can even see a little slack in the brake hose from frame flex as I rock it forward.


This is interesting relative to my "fix" above since re-routing the brake cable caused my caliper to torque out, away from the wheel. If the carbon rear on my yeti is doing the same thing your frame is doing maybe the two forces cancel each other out. Maybe I am better off not being "aligned" in my driveway...

Thoughts anyone?


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## SC SUPALIGHT (Sep 14, 2007)

Ok I'm lazy and didn't read all upteen pages But I have J5's on 203 rotors on and '08 Bullit and they are ok on first few mile/or 2 but after getting heated or any moisture on them and they turn into a pig in heat having sex w/ several hogs @ once What do I need to do????????????????


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

BCP's


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## Kalgrm (Sep 22, 2005)

SC SUPALIGHT said:


> Ok I'm lazy and didn't read all upteen pages .... What do I need to do????????????????


 Read the umpteen pages ....

(... then isolate your brake hose from the frame).


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## Kristatos (Oct 15, 2007)

FWIW I had the bad vibration thing going - J7s, 185mm rotors, metallic pads. I had this on the rear brake only, front (same model/rotor size) was fine. I swapped rotors f/r and carefully torqued them down. I cleaned all the interfaces between the rotor/hub with simple green and re-installed the wheel. After one ride with a lot of steep downhill (about 2.5 hrs total) they are about as quiet as I could expect. A little squeal, but no vibrations or howling. We'll see if this holds up, I also have some organic pads on order and will try them as well. I think my "howling" may have been due to an improperly torqued rotor, but we'll see.


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## SC SUPALIGHT (Sep 14, 2007)

Ok over last night and today I tried and read all pages to this thread and have mucked with the brakes constantly and they still suck.. I called Avid and the tech I spoke to said do what you did again and buy some new brake pads.I got pissed off and hung up,I'm going to the LBS tommorrow and let them tinker w/ them and if they can't figure it out I'm gonna buy some new brakes.Took a ride today and there was definetly not any progress in the pig sex sound,So after tommorrow we will see.. Bike is an '08 Bullit w/J5's and 203 rotors f/r. Anymore suggestions??


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## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

oscarc said:


> Halleluya!!!! that is exactley what I've explained somewhere in one of my last posts. But, I don't think it is as obviouse to others as you might think. I bet most folks don't know this and not having to do anything with being mechanically challenged. Just that you would think the hardware would stay in place with the brake lever down.


Well it's been three weeks and many rides, including some pretty serious mud last weekend and the brakes are still glass smooth. I really think it's all in the caliper alignment, when you have all the hardware on and compress the brake lever to hold the caliper in place if you wiggle the caliper you will see that there is still a great deal of room for things to go out of whack if you are not extremely careful to keep the caliper perfectly positioned in the center of the amount of play.


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

Give up.:thumbsup:


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

*Givin' it a try....*

Talked to my LBS today about the vibrations and turkeys. The owner says she sees it all the time with out of aligned brakes. To fix it she told me to take my time and what to look for. The vibrations are from the rotor not being centered. Here is how to fix it. If I don't get it, bring it in and she'll have it done in 10 minutes. Here is the sequence.

1. Squeeze the lever while looking at the rotor. If the rotor moves the caliper needs to move towards the side that is pushing on the rotor.

2. Keep micro adjusting the caliper until the rotor doesn't move when the lever is squeezed.

The vibrations and noise occur when the rotor is pushed to one side during braking causing the rotor to warp.

I have mine pretty well centered now, I hope to get out this weekend and try it out. The vibrations and squeeling are gone on the work stand...now for the real world test.


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## Borbus (Sep 18, 2008)

Klein_man said:


> Talked to my LBS today about the vibrations and turkeys. The owner says she sees it all the time with out of aligned brakes. To fix it she told me to take my time and what to look for. The vibrations are from the rotor not being centered. Here is how to fix it. If I don't get it, bring it in and she'll have it done in 10 minutes. Here is the sequence.
> 
> 1. Squeeze the lever while looking at the rotor. If the rotor moves the caliper needs to move towards the side that is pushing on the rotor.
> 
> ...


I have never had hydraulic calipers but wouldn't it be easier to loosen the CPS bolts (do they have those) and then squeeze the brake to centre it and tighten them again while the brake is squeezed? This way it should be perfectly in the middle... Maybe it's not as simple as that, though...


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

That does work. However I still had one side pushing the rotor when going that route. Then again, I am not always that patient, and usually try and do the minor tweaks right before I need to ride.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Borbus said:


> I have never had hydraulic calipers but wouldn't it be easier to loosen the CPS bolts (do they have those) and then squeeze the brake to centre it and tighten them again while the brake is squeezed? This way it should be perfectly in the middle... Maybe it's not as simple as that, though...


That is actually the standard alignment procedure. The mounting hardware, while doing a great job of compensating for imperfections in the frame/fork that would otherwise make alignment very difficult and require shims, seems to be the Achilles heel of the Avids. It seems as though it's quite easy to get very good alignment, but then it drifts out and the turkeys emerge after a ride or two.

I heard from my LBS today. They were fighting the good fight for me and attempting to work with Avid. Avid is sending new rotors and pads, as they have for other folks.  According to my LBS, Avid is claiming that the turkeys/vibration are caused by improper bedding of the pads/rotor. They claimed that they have to be bed by making 20-40 very hard stops right out of the gate in clean conditions. I let the LBS know that this is how they were initially bed, but that we'd follow Avid's adivce to a T and take it from there.

Stay tuned.....

-Pete


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Pedalphile said:


> According to my LBS, Avid is claiming that the turkeys/vibration are caused by improper bedding of the pads/rotor. They claimed that they have to be bed by making 20-40 very hard stops right out of the gate in clean conditions. I let the LBS know that this is how they were initially bed, but that we'd follow Avid's adivce to a T and take it from there.
> 
> Stay tuned.....
> 
> -Pete


Then somebody's lying.

I've talked to them several times. Each time they say something different.

The cause of the Warble according to SRAM is:

Improper alignment
Caliper grabbing too low on the rotor
Improper bed-in

All 3 of these things were supposedly "the sole cause" of the warble. They're full of it.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Update:

I still haven't heard about my frame replacement warranty, but I took yet another look at the caliper and frame yesterday. I had my face right up in there, haha.

I grabbed the caliper with my hand and put some lateral pressure on it (toward the wheel) and I could see the equal space between pads and rotor change to no space on the outside and large space on the inside. It was also a little crooked.

Yet more ammo to support my theory about my own personal experience. Basically, it doesn't take much pressure with my particular frame to flex it outta-whack enough to mis-align the caliper and cause the edge of the pads to dig into the rotor vents.

Sigh...I wish they'd get back from Vegas and gimme a call!


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## slappy_dunbar (Sep 8, 2007)

*Simply put: it's the bike frame*

Yes, I've tried many of the proposed solutions to this problem, up to and including installing a (warranty) replacement set of brakes. But the brakes still howled. Last ditch, I replaced the Gary Fisher Sugar frame with one that has a carbon rear triangle. It's the same bike, but with an ever-so-slightly different geometry in the rear. Perhaps the disc brake mount is also infinitesimally different. Who knows, but the brakes have NO sound coming from them, well after bedding in.

My opinion is that if the brakes are howling, it's probably somehow to do with the rear triangle design. Occam's razor.


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## sam-eye-am (Jun 30, 2004)

*My howling is gone*

I posted a picture above of my rear disc tabs....bent. I had the LBS face the tabs. I also went with the Elixir CRs. I did one XC ride of about 30 miles followed by 3 downhill runs at Downieville equating to 12000 or so feet of vert in about 45 miles. I only got the howl to come in once in between the first and second run, and that was at slow speed on pavement..and the amplitude of the howl had to be easily 1/10th of what it previously was. I couldn't reproduce it at all after prior to or after that.

I have talked to other folks with my particular frame and/or swingarm. Even with OTHER brakes, folks have had problems from time to time. But, with our particular swingarm, it seemed that for most folks who tried it...replacing the pivot bearing nearest the caliper (on both sides of the swingarm/chainstay) seemed to solve the problem.

So, if your caliper is aligned and can stay aligned, your pads bedded in properly (no contaminants and even wear), and you still have problems....my money is on the frame or something to do with the frame (read pivots), or maybe a loose hub bearing.

I have 15 or so hard months of use on my current frame and will be replacing the pivot bearings this weekend since I am sure they are notchy (based upon the interval I replaced them on my previous frame). My other bike that doesn't make the noise already had the pivots replaced...so that may explain one of the possible reasons I have not had a problem on that bike either.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

I finally have run across the dreaded turkey gobble, rear brake, light lever force, loud as hell on my last ride. 30 seconds recentering the caliper and it was gone. It kinda confirms that bad set up is the culprit with turkey gobble, in my mind.


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## jeng (Aug 12, 2005)

I put Black Sabbath on my ipod, cranked it to 11 and the problem went away :headphones:


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## TupacAmaru (Jul 25, 2008)

I get the high pitch sound sometimes WITHOUT applying the brakes and its driving me crazy! But i really get that loud sound as soon as i ride thru some water... is this normal???
(juicy 5) please help!


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Your rotors are touching a pad at times due to something like frame flex, play in hub, etc. 

Yes, most brakes are noisy when wet.


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

Well I fixed my issues. I had Avid Juicy 5 with a nasty vibration and warbbled... got fed up with it, and went to a pair of Hayes Stroker Carbons They are not 100% quiet, and might squeel everyone once in a while but nothing compared to the avids.

Im sold on it being frame / mounting hardware related....


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Just wanted to check back and see if there was any solution. I guess not.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

johnniewalker85 said:


> Just wanted to check back and see if there was any solution. I guess not.


Read the first 4 post pages and have a great Turkey Day. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

basically, get them re aligned, sand down your pads and re adjust your calipers. If that doesn't work get some new ones =P


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## Jvan_wert (Apr 8, 2007)

*Reinventing the Wheel?*

Alright folks back to the basics. Disc brakes are disc brakes no matter whether they are on a bicycle, a motorcycle or an automobile. Size of the assembly is based on needed force required for the brake to perform for the weight/inertia of the given vehicle. Weight is a product of the materials used. Heavier is not always better, quite the opposite weight especially un-sprung (rotating) weight equals more force required to stop. A balance must be struck between weight and strength. More strength usually means more material which means more weight. Noise is vibration. Loud noise is the result of higher frequencies of vibration. Lower noise/shuddering/warbling/vibrations that can be felt are of lower frequency. It is possible to have both going on at the same time. The lower frequencies usually result from flex of materials (frame, mounting tabs/brackets, rotor, caliper, hub, spokes, and rims), cracks, and fatigue. High frequencies are usually a result of imperfection of mating surfaces. Now to throw a wrench in the works, imperfection of mating surfaces can cause low and high speed vibrations, and at the same time. Pad material and not being in the heat range that the pad material is designed to work in can also contribute. Ok now lets through in another wrench, vibrations in disc brake systems can also be caused by gasses building up from the braking operations causing the pad to slightly float and bounce on the rotors as the gasses are vented. Now your brakes could have one or all of these problems.:madman: Remember disc brakes are disc brake no matter the application. Phew now that I got that out there I can give out the little bit of info that I set out to give. If you need washers to shim out your calipers look no further than your worn out parts bin. The washers on vbrake pads are a perfect match for your caliper mounting bolts and if you're lucky they will be stainless steal. What you throw out your old worn out parts, Doh!


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

My solution was a new frame.

My left seat stay was flexing under braking forces causing the caliper to rock forward and inward. I found this out by holding the rear brake and rocking the bike fore/aft. I could watch the caliper move and I could even see the brake line moving due to the change in distance from flex. This causes the rotor to bind and twist.

As I've said before, there are different noises that these brakes make:
-Howl
-Squeel/squeek
-Turkey Warble

People forget that this is the Turkey Warble thread, hahaha. The warble is caused by mis-alignment. Mine were aligned perfectly until the frame flexed. New (more supported) frame solved the issue.

The howl and squeel/squeek noises are not limited to Avid brakes and are caused by different issues.


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## Klein_man (Nov 20, 2006)

*Alignment Solved It*

I took the time to properly align the caliper and the vibrations and noise disappeared. I am back to loving the J7's on my 2007 Hifi Pro.


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## oscarc (Mar 23, 2006)

Klein_man said:


> I took the time to properly align the caliper and the vibrations and noise disappeared. I am back to loving the J7's on my 2007 Hifi Pro.


ditto for me. Very, very careful alignment. Then first hint of them wanting to start making what ever noise, I take 10 mins and realign, very, very carefully.


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

I think I solved the turkey warble problem--A STICKY PISTON. 

This morning I removed the pads in my rear caliper and squeezed the lever to moved the pistons out so I could clean them. The outside piston moved out with each stroke while the inside piston remained in its initial position, which was flush with the top of its cylinder. I pushed the outside cylinder back into its cylinder and repeated this procedure another three times without any movement from the inside piston. I also noticed the outside piston was very difficult to push back into its cylinder. I then held the outside piston in its retracted position with the flat blade of a screw driver and pulled the lever. On the second stroke the inside piston started to move and on the third stroke it moved out the same distance as the outside piston did. Next I released the outside piston and both pistons moved out equal distance together. I pushed both pistons back again, which was very easy to do this time and pushed them out until they were about 3mm apart. Cleaned them with a swab dipped in isopropyl alcohol and pushed them back in for the last time. Installed the pads, aligned the caliper, torqued the CPS mounting bolts to 75 inch pounds and when for a 14 mile ride. Guess what--not turkey warble sound or vibration for the first time in over a year. 

Throughout this last year, I have tried all of the anecdotes that are described in the previous 300 plus posts to fix my 2007 J5 rear brake, which sounded like a turkey in heat and vibrated the rear end of my bike every time I squeezed the lever. Here are all the things I tried before I stumbled onto this sticky piston: 1) Aligned the caliper, cleaned and sanded the pads and rotor countless times, 2) new organic pads , 3) new semi-metallic pads, 4) swapped out the 185mm G2 rotor with a new 185mm G2 rotor under warranty, 5) new 160mm G2 rotor along with a new extruded adapter, which significantly reduced the vibration, 6) tried an old 160mm G1 rotor from my BB5s, 7) tried an old 160mm round-a-gone rotor off of a set of 05 J5s installed on my wife’s bike, 8) replaced the CPS washers and 9) bled the brakes twice. 

The cause of the turkey warble is obvious to me now, the pad with the sticky piston just grazed up against the rotor, which had zero clamping effect whatsoever. The opposite pad, with the active piston, was pushing up against the rotor and distorting it and the uneven friction was causing the system to vibrate-resonate. With both pad equally clamping down on the rotor and vibration caused by friction is dampened as the clamping force is increased. Case and point, the turkey warble could probable be reproduced with a large gap behind the static pad in a BB5 or BB7 caliper.


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## johnniewalker85 (Jul 23, 2007)

Turns out this is still an issue. I am going to have a shop setup the new rotors and pads that Avid sent me. We'll see if it really is the setup.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Wow, 8 months and you haven't found a fix.

I solved my problem back at the beginning of this thread by using a Galfer rotor and pads.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

people are still buying avid brakes?


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## ntha (Jan 17, 2006)

MisterC said:


> people are still buying avid brakes?


Maybe they don't, but they do buy bikes with avid brakes installed.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

I switched from Juicy 5's to Elixir R's nearly a year ago and haven't had any problems with them yet.


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## hitek79 (Oct 24, 2008)

I fixed my Juicy brake problems by replacing them with Magura's. The Juicy's have worked flawlessly since then!


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## Kristatos (Oct 15, 2007)

Fixed the howling on my J7s by removing the factory installed rotors, putting some loc-tite on the threads and torquing them down properly. No problems since then.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

*No Juicy*

I abandoned Juicy's as well, but stayed Avid and went with Elixirs...work great. Side note, I thought I was experiencing the fabled turkey warble in the rear, but turned out to be a worn out free hub that was vibrating at higher speeds.


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## fcojavier (Nov 7, 2006)

MisterC said:


> people are still buying avid brakes?


Yes.
Juicy Seven working better than Formula Oro K18.
I too think they need very careful alignment.


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## sparker3000 (Jul 10, 2006)

I have the same problem, spent about 3 hours fettling with it yesterday and still no joy.

One observation though which I think may be causing it or at least contributing to it. The pistons are ever so slightly chipped from prizing them apart to change pads. This could allow some movement which could result in vibration.

Not spending any more time on it though. Got another ride planned for Wednesday and if it doesn't mysteriously go away I'll be placing an order for some 09 XT's.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

"_The pistons are ever so slightly chipped from prizing them apart to change pads. _"

Prise them apart while the pads are still fitted or use a plastic tyre lever.


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## leeelson (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a 2009 Stumpy with Elixrs. After numerous tries over 3 months at fixing the squeal/gobble problem, my shop replaced them with new. The problem persisted. Specialized has agreed to supply brand new Magura's (just released). I'm hoping....


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

Read my sticky piston post above to solve the turkey warbler issue. You can not align the caliper to the rotor properly with a sticky piston nor will the pads uniformly squeeze the rotor with this problem either. Avid suggest removing the pads and then pumping the lever to move the pistons out. If both of them do not move out at the same distance then add a small drop of mineral oil to the sticky one. If the sticky piston is frozen then hold the good piston in its bore with the side of an 11mm open ended wrench and squeeze the lever to move out the frozen piston. Again try lubing it with mineral oil and press both pistons back into their bores with the 11mm wrench. Squeeze the lever again and hope that the sticky piston moves. If not, then the caliper will need to be rebuilt, which will fix the problem. All current brands of hydraulic brakes suffer from sticky pistons--especially the rear calipers, which are exposed to a lot of dirt kicked up from both tires.


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## sparker3000 (Jul 10, 2006)

I checked the pistons and they were fine although put a dab of mineral oil on for good measure. Still squeaks like buggery though.


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## AK47 (Mar 22, 2004)

I recently bought a new set of 2008 Juicy 7's. They mounted up with no problem and off I went for a ride. They worked fine until toward the end of a 12 mile ride, the rear brake started to howl and make a grinding like noise. The front worked well with no issues.

After reading all the posts in this thread, I took the rear caliper off the bike and took out the pads. I tried pumping the lever, and the pads WERE NOT, moving inwards together. Once piston stuck! I tried several things to unstick it, but to no avail. They went back to the shop I bought them from today to be inspected. I will either get a replacement or refund.

Major drag as I really liked the way they feel and the extra power compared to the BB7's they replaced.


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## nathanbal (Jan 30, 2007)

add another one to the list of fixing the warble by getting rid of the juicy 7's altogether...


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## RobertCShay (Dec 2, 2008)

*Go to KoolStop organic pads...*

Solved my problem! Excellent modulation, lasts a full 6 months riding 3x/week, easy to lock up both brakes.


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## sparker3000 (Jul 10, 2006)

Solved my problem too, just got delivery of a nice pair of XT 09 Brakes (-:


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## pierocapredoni (May 26, 2008)

Here`s my impression. I have the wobble issue in juicy 3s in a Giant Alliance frame. Nothing seemed to work, changed rotors for shimano, pads, etc. Always the same noise. Changed the juici´s to another frame full aluminium, no carbon.... and the noise went out. Never noise again with original avid rotors. Installed in the Alliance frame (carbon) a set of shimanos XT disc brakes. I have the woblle noise in the rear brake with the shimanos XT!!!!! So, I think the frame is guilty for the noise!!!! I dont know waht to try to clean the noise/vibration of my rear brake. Front brake is sweet. Thoughts?????


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*A quick test....*

I maintain that the noise is resonance in the frame/brake combo. Everything has a resonant frequency. You can change the resonant frequency or dampen the resonance. Most people change the brakes, the frequency changes and the problem goes away.

Try my quick test. Duct tape or zip tie an old socket to the caliper. Or, add a stick-on lead wheel weight to it. Do anything to add mass to the caliper or the frame above the rear caliper. Start with something heavy.

-Chuck



pierocapredoni said:


> Here`s my impression. I have the wobble issue in juicy 3s in a Giant Alliance frame. Nothing seemed to work, changed rotors for shimano, pads, etc. Always the same noise. Changed the juici´s to another frame full aluminium, no carbon.... and the noise went out. Never noise again with original avid rotors. Installed in the Alliance frame (carbon) a set of shimanos XT disc brakes. I have the woblle noise in the rear brake with the shimanos XT!!!!! So, I think the frame is guilty for the noise!!!! I dont know waht to try to clean the noise/vibration of my rear brake. Front brake is sweet. Thoughts?????


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## steez (Jul 24, 2004)

I tried:

- aligning 100,000x
- bleeding
- new pads
- new rotors
- sanding pads
- different wheel
- different BIKE!!!

Nothing would make the noise go away. :madmax: :madmax: :madmax: So I pulled out an old Hayes Nine from a bike that I've torn down, and put it on the same bike, same wheel, same rotors. Problem instantly gone. :cornut: Pads are not the same, but I have replaced several pads on both sets of brakes, one always has a problem, the other one never has to this day and it's old as hell.

You guys don't know what a relief it is to ride on a bike that doesn't shutter violently all the way up to the handle bars. Hayes nine are supposed to be inferior, but I can actually use them! It's awesome how brakes improve your riding skills!

I hate the idea of buying yet another set of brakes, but I am going to have to bite the bullet this time. If I could go back in time, I would buy a $600 set of brakes and come out ahead by not having to replace one set of crappy brakes with another and another.

Now which brakes to get....


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## Wildeyes (Jun 14, 2007)

My rim brakes are quiet as a mouse and stop me on a dime. I also get annoyed at following riders on the trails with howling brakes. Worst noise ever.


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

My rear brake levers became stiff no more gap between resting and engaging the brakes. When i press on the brakes it is there right away not like the front that has no problem. What seems to be the problem with my rear brakes. I thought at first it's just overheating but i gave it a long rest the problem is still there. I also noticed that the rear pads are so close to the rotors unlike the front it has a small gap. But in doesn't rub the rotors. Please help me with my problem.

Thank you


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

kikoy said:


> My rear brake levers became stiff no more gap between resting and engaging the brakes. When i press on the brakes it is there right away not like the front that has no problem. What seems to be the problem with my rear brakes. I thought at first it's just overheating but i gave it a long rest the problem is still there. I also noticed that the rear pads are so close to the rotors unlike the front it has a small gap. But in doesn't rub the rotors. Please help me with my problem.
> 
> Thank you


Take the wheel off and pry the pads/pistons *all* the way apart. Replace the wheel and squeeze the lever a few times. It should self adjust.


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## kikoy (Aug 30, 2007)

Thank you very much for the advice sir.


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## 42dflyer (Oct 31, 2005)

I had ALL of these symptoms and have spent half a year chasing different remedies. Just got the discobrakes today. Put'em on and rode gobbler free with the quietest brakes yet. Another ride tomorrow, but man! I'm hoping this solves the problem.


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## TrailBlaza (Sep 2, 2008)

I cannot believe the steps some of you have taken to address the noise problem with Avid brakes. This issue is NOT some unexplained phenomenon that cannot be fixed and has nothing to do with the type of brake pads, rotor, hydraulic fluid, fork or frame. Rather, it comes down to two issues that you have overlooked while trying to fix the problem. First and foremost, you are applying an uneven force with the pads to the rotor. This can be due to the pads not touching the rotor at the EXACT same time, causing the rotor to move to the side where the pad is lagging to "catch up", or the distance at which the pad travels is greater than the distance of the opposite pad. This can be best addressed with the picture below. Even if you think you have the rotor centered between the pads, you can still get bend the rotor which will cause the resonance frequency.










The second cause could be due to your rotor not being exactly trued. An uneven rotor will lead to an uneven force applied to the rotor by the pads causing more squeaking.

Note that if you adjust the brake pads you may see less braking power when you apply only a little lever force because now one pad will not being applying as much force to the rotor and bending it. You shouldn't notice the issue after the pads become used a few times though.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

I'm sure glad you cleared that up. Now everyone's problem is solved.


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

*Clarity*



gmcttr said:


> I'm sure glad you cleared that up. Now everyone's problem is solved.


You took the words right out of my mouth.... We all must have had our heads in the sand... how could we have overlooked this, so simple, just put the round peg through the square hole....Right Why didn't someone else in this entire few year old thread ever think that it had something to do with the rotor and pads not lining up correctly. HMM

Lloyd: Excuse me, Flo? 
[Harry and Lloyd crack up] 
Lloyd: Flo, like the TV show. Uh, what is the Soup Du Jour? 
Flo, Waitress #1: It's the Soup of the Day. 
Lloyd: Mmmm. That sounds good. I'll have that.

"What's your soup of the day?"
Clarity...


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## Thirdrawn (Mar 22, 2007)

TrailBlaza said:


> Even if you think you have the rotor centered between the pads, you can still get bend the rotor which will cause the resonance frequency.


In the spirit of what can quickly become a heated contest, I'd like to start out by saying "I come in peace."

So you're saying that the "turkey-warble" is caused by a maladjusted braking system. So this is a simple case of improper install. I'm willing to grant that maladjustment can be the cause of a lot of problems and the "turkey-warble" may very well be one of them.

But doesn't it stand to reason that the same people who improperly installed their Juicy brakes are equally likely to have improperly installed their replacement non-Juicy brakes? Or, in the event that someone else installed their Juicy brakes, that most people who experienced the "turkey-warble" at least attempted to re-adjust their brakes and did so improperly?

It seems that some of the people who have replaced their brakes with non-Juicy systems have solved their problems in spite of their propensity for incompetence.

So if I accept that maladjustment is the problem, and that the same people responsible for the maladjustment are fixing the problem by installing new systems, then it would appear that other systems are either easier to install or more tolerant of maladjustment. Would you agree?

Of course, then you've got the whole argument that if someone improperly installed/adjusted his or her rear brake (where the prevailing amount of "turkey-warble" seems to come from), then it stands to reason that he or she would have made the same mistake(s) on the front where the "turkey-warble" is refreshingly absent.

Now, I originally had this problem and I solved it when I noticed that my pads weren't moving at the same rate. A little lube on the pistons and I was all set. I am a firm believer that everything works properly if it is installed properly. I take great care to squeeze the brake, wiggle it around, and turn the bolts in small increments so that the rotor is centered. For what it's worth, I really want to agree with you. It seems like the ease and large range of adjustment on the Juicy system may be working against it. Although I think some people claim to have solved the problem by switching to the Elixir series which uses the same methods for adjustment.

At the very least, I think other systems may be more tolerant of improper install/adjustment.


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

TrailBlaza said:


> First and foremost, you are applying an uneven force with the pads to the rotor. This can be due to the pads not touching the rotor at the EXACT same time, causing the rotor to move to the side where the pad is lagging to "catch up", or the distance at which the pad travels is greater than the distance of the opposite pad.


Well I would have to argue with this "theory" for the simple reason that I also run Avid BB7s on another bike and when you set up BB7s you are actually supposed to offset the calipers unequal distances. When set up as instructed you can actually see the rotor bend when you squeeze the brakes. And guess what? No Gobble Gobble or vibration. In fact, I love my BB7s. I realize that BB7s are not Juicys, but it at least shows that offset calipers alone do not cause the vibration.
For me, using a different brand of rotors and pads seemed to solve my problem though time will tell for sure. Based on what I've read in this thread, I'm not even sure that everyone posting here has the same problem. When my Juicy 5s acted up last summer, I got the turkey noise and a severe vibration.


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## TrailBlaza (Sep 2, 2008)

Thirdrawn said:


> It seems that some of the people who have replaced their brakes with non-Juicy systems have solved their problems in spite of their propensity for incompetence.
> 
> So if I accept that maladjustment is the problem, and that the same people responsible for the maladjustment are fixing the problem by installing new systems, then it would appear that other systems are either easier to install or more tolerant of maladjustment. Would you agree?
> 
> Of course, then you've got the whole argument that if someone improperly installed/adjusted his or her rear brake (where the prevailing amount of "turkey-warble" seems to come from), then it stands to reason that he or she would have made the same mistake(s) on the front where the "turkey-warble" is refreshingly absent.


First off, I have never had any noise from my rear juicy 7. I can clearly see that the pads are hitting the rotor at the exact same time with the same rate and pressure. The rotor is also perfectly true. The rotor is not moving side to side at all. However, my front brake have gone through rides where my hole bike vibrates like a jackhammer from such bad turkey wobble. When I came home I noticed an untrue rotor, or the disc pads were making contact at slightly different times.

I am not going to speculate as to why this problem seems prevalent in Juicy brakes and not others. That is like asking why my Nissan SUV has engine rattle while a Toyota SUV does not. It is better to just address the issue at hand.

My diagram was obviously an oversimplified POS but I hoped it would give some people who are just experiencing this problem an idea as to why they are getting the noise. I would like to add that if the rate at which the piston moves and the force it can apply to the rotor is slightly off it will also cause the noise.



knottshore said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth.... We all must have had our heads in the sand... how could we have overlooked this, so simple, just put the round peg through the square hole....Right Why didn't someone else in this entire few year old thread ever think that it had something to do with the rotor and pads not lining up correctly. HMM
> 
> Lloyd: Excuse me, Flo?
> [Harry and Lloyd crack up]
> ...


Hey I am not the moron who doesn't know how to fix things


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

*Not true*

Mechanical brake calipers as well as some hydraulic calipers only move one pad causing initial pressure to one side of the disc which will cause the rotor to bend before coming in contact with the fixed inner pad. The 2 pads will never contact the rotor at the exact same instant in this kind of system.

-Chuck



TrailBlaza said:


> I cannot believe the steps some of you have taken to address the noise problem with Avid brakes. This issue is NOT some unexplained phenomenon that cannot be fixed and has nothing to do with the type of brake pads, rotor, hydraulic fluid, fork or frame. Rather, it comes down to two issues that you have overlooked while trying to fix the problem. First and foremost, you are applying an uneven force with the pads to the rotor. This can be due to the pads not touching the rotor at the EXACT same time, causing the rotor to move to the side where the pad is lagging to "catch up", or the distance at which the pad travels is greater than the distance of the opposite pad. This can be best addressed with the picture below. Even if you think you have the rotor centered between the pads, you can still get bend the rotor which will cause the resonance frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nm_gunslinger (Jul 28, 2008)

*Is it this easy?*

I found out after doing muddy rides and washing my bike in the back yard that I would not have the turkey warble for the next couple of rides.... I now rinse my bike regularly.

My system is completely stock avid J7 and avid rotors.

The other thing I learned to do is every now and then pull the wheels off and put a flat head screwdriver between the pads and rock them back and forth until the pistons all the way back in their home position. This is something that Avid says to do before changing pads. The calipers, btw, are self adjusting.


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## nick59349 (Jan 3, 2008)

Last year I had a set of Juicy 5's that I had the turkey problem with (earlier in this thread) and upgraded to a det of Oro Bianco's and had no problems until this month. They started doing the same sh*t but worse.

Good news though, thanks to all the ideas now days I pulled them off and saw that the pucks were a little (very little) cruded up from the winter riding up here in WA and were not deploying together. I cleaned them up and lubed the pucks with fresh brake fluid and put them back together.

End result, not a squeek. I was really surprised that it could be that simple. Hell, I wish I had figured it our last year!!!
:madman: 

Nick


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## dhscaresme (Sep 29, 2005)

I put Code's on my Highline about a month ago, and got the turkey gobble. Mine is a super high pitched gobble, it sounds like my pads are completely gone and I'm going metal on metal. The good thing is that hikers on the trail can here me coming up behind them, but it usually scares the sh*t out of em (and horses too, that's a big big problem). Sorry hikers, I'm stopping way way before I get to you!

Anyway, the Code instructions say to tighten the CPS bolts all the way, then back them out 1/4th to 1/8th of a turn. It does not have any info on alignment beyond that point. Kinda sketchy if you ask me, but I tried it the other day on the trail and it quieted the brakes all the way. So some kind of alignment issue for sure. Of course then the bolts loosened the rest of the way so I turkey'd the rest of the way home. Maybe lock tight would do the trick...

My question: Has anyone read those instructions, and do yours say the same thing?

I'd love to keep the Codes, they are super powerful, modulation is awesome but I miss my 2004 saints, they just made this soothing buzz, very calming. I like that Shimano rotor.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

My Avid Juicy Ultimates did the same annoying thing too. I tried everything; new rotors, bleed, counting skewer turns, etc. What was my cure? Magura Marta SL- the quietest, lightest and way more powerful brakeset. Sorry, Avid!!!


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## dana109 (Jul 15, 2008)

add me to the list. I read this whole thread and didn't find an answer. it seems like nothing really works for people. 

I've done about 150 km on my 09 hifi deluxe with Juicy 5's and it has started squeeling without touching the brakes. In fact the only way to get it to stop is the hit the brake and then the sound stops for 30 seconds. but as soon as the wheel starts rotating, it's really loud and as soon as i press the front brake it is perfectly quiet. I'm going to take it to the LBS this week.


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

*Reply to Dana109*

Dana109,
I understand you have a squeal or squeak which is unfortunate and irritating... but from what you describe it is not the horrid noise and vibration that is the turkey worble....

The turkey worble or whatever one calls it is a sensation that usually comes from the rear break when applied with moderate power. It resonates or reverberates throughout the entire bike and even shudders the frame at times with a horrible noise that is almost undescribable- frequency is the best way since it is a noise with "teeth". there is not usually any indication of it's presence when you do not apply the brakes.

The good news is you probably don't have the dreaded turkey warble- the bad news is your caliper is prbably hanging up, your rotor is warped/bent or the caliper needs to be aligned-

You my friend have hope


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

I told you those brakes were trouble…check what knottshore suggested and if that doesn’t work tighten everything(QR, rotor bolts, suspension pivots etcetera), make sure nothing is flexing and bend the pad retaining clip further apart so it holds the pads back with more force.


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## dana109 (Jul 15, 2008)

you were right about the brakes it seems. 

If it gets worse and i can't fix it i might invest in another brand like hayes or magura or even bb7 which seems much more simple. We'll see. I'll try the juicy's.


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## 42dflyer (Oct 31, 2005)

*Similar finding*

I've come to suspect that the leading bolt on the caliper mount loosens over time and allows the brake to toe in. Adding locktight seems to have solved the problem. I tried everything else on this thread prior to that and same problem crops up several rides later.



clearcreek said:


> I'm convinced this is a simple pad toe-in problem. In 20 months and 1.5k miles on a pair of J7s with G2 rotors I've had the warble 4 or 5 times, front or rear seemingly equal. For me the problem has occurred 100% of the time immediately or soon after pulling and re-installing the pads or re-centering to correct for a dragging pad.
> 
> The first time it occurred I tried many of the standard fixes people use; cleaning and sanding pads, shimming the caliper out, sanding rotor, specing the installation. All to no avail, still the warble. Then I happened to do a wheel stand on steep step-up and on the next downhill no more Howl ... permanently. What had happened?
> 
> ...


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

My LBS got Avid to replace the pads and rotors (this happened last October, just before I hung up the bike for the winter). I've now put about 100 dirt miles on the new pads/rotors, and no turkey problems so far. In fact, the brakes have been silent and without vibration.

I'll be sure to report back if anything changes, but so far, so good.

For the record, my 2008 Scalpel 2 came with Juicy Carbons.

-Pete


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

I bought an SX TRail with Juicy 7s that had the "turkey gobble" problem; I didn't really care, but it was interesting because it felt (at the handle) very much like when I put superlight rotors on my Hayes Mag brakes a while back. Anyhow, I left my bike outside for a few days and it rained, the rotors got some surface rust so I decided to wipe it off. Well, wiping one side of the rotor was good, but the OTHER side, I got an awesome laceration due to REALLY sharp edges. So, I took a small knife sharpening stone (basically, a small round file) and smoothed off the sharp side ... just to make sure I didn't destroy my fingers again. Well, turkey gobble gone now ... I changed nothing other than grinding off the burr.

I didn't read the entire post, so if someone else already mentioned doing this, I am sorry. If anything, you will eliminate a sharp edge on your bike.


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## SquirlySteve (May 4, 2009)

Just a Noob, so don't blast me too hard. This last post got me thinking after I was riding around the street last night and heard the front brakes gobbling. I recently purchased a used 05 Enduro with J5s on it and have been paying attention to the alignment and adjusting as needed after every ride to make sure they are contacting evenly upon application. I noticed last night after I heard the noise that the upper part of the pads have an upside down U-shaped retaining clip, I believe. The interior area (toward hub) of this aluminum? piece has a lip that curves inward toward the disk. After spinning the wheel and appying the brake it appears that this retaining clip may be making slight contact with the beveled outer reaches of the caliper. This may explain the solution of washers on the mounting bolts and the fact that once they become hot/glazed the sound becomes worse due to added pressure onlever pull causing torque inward on the outer extent of the pads. Just an observation, but it sounds like there may be multiple variables in play here.

Ettore-Was the burr on the outer surface of the rotor or around the vents where the pads contact?


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## SquirlySteve (May 4, 2009)

Sorry...Couldn't figure out how to edit the post.
The retaining clip curves inward toward the outer reaches of the rotor and makes contact with the beveled outside of the rotor.


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

SquirlySteve said:


> Ettore-Was the burr on the outer surface of the rotor or around the vents where the pads contact?


Basically, a rotor starts it's life as a flat piece of steel. From there, it is cut to make it's shape (I don't know how these specific rotors are made, but there are a lot of options, stamping, water cutting, plasma, etc). Anyhow, this cutting happens from one side of the rotor; that side gets a nice rounded edge while the OTHER side gets a burr. So, basically ALL edges on the inside of my rotor (facing towards the spokes) were very sharp (the holes were less, because of the pads cleaning off the burr) but they were still sharp. It took a while to round off the edges, but my gobbling is gone. To see what I mean, basically, feel the "blades" of the rotor (the part that connects the middle area to the braking surface) and feel them from both sides; one side's edges will be notably "smooth" and the other will be "ragged" or "sharp".


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## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

Taking a Dremel to the rotors with a small sandpaper barrel, and then sanding the surface of the pads always works well for me. Whenever the turkey comes back, just repeat. Doesn't take more than a few minutes.

I am going to try and switch to EBC organic though . . . .


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## statenine (Apr 11, 2009)

same issue for me with my elixir's. Even took it to my LBS and had them adjusted, the turkey warble went away for about 3 rides, then it came back as bad as ever. I am so fed up with this issue I think I am going to try some Hayes Stroker Trail and see if I have better luck.


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## cake1dlx (May 29, 2009)

*Issue with Brand New Codes*

I just got a new set of Codes (NOT the Code 5) and noticed the issue with the rear brake. Real loud turkey warble and lots of vibration coming from the rear (shakes the whole bike). I took off the brake and ran some of the tests that you guys have done. Like one of you above, I noticed that the inside pistons (closest to the spoke) were not moving when I squeezed the lever. Everything else seemed fine though. I need to re-bleed the brake, and test again. Anyone know how to get the pistons moving again? I hope this is all I need to get it taken care of. Luckily I had an old Hayes Nine sittin around that I can use as a replacement until this is done. No Warble from that, but the codes just feel a TON better. It's not even comparable.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Take the pads out, use a screwdriver, etc. to hold back the free piston and squeeze the lever a couple of times to move the sticky piston out. Push the sticky piston back all the way into the caliper and repeat a few times. Use a Q-tip and some brake fluid to clean and lube the side of the piston.

*Be careful not to squeeze the lever too many times or the piston will come out.*


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## cake1dlx (May 29, 2009)

I actually did make that mistake yesterday. Piston came out and I lost some fluid (thus the re-bleed). Going to get it bled and then try to do what you just said. Hopefully it works. I don't want to have waster the money I paid for those things. But they are sick brakes (if they didn't have the gobble effect). Thanks.


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## nm_gunslinger (Jul 28, 2008)

Interesting, I went riding with a big group and heard all kinds of brake noise, including turkey warble. Looking around at the other bikes only one other had juicy's, and it wasn't the one warbling...


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

cake1dlx said:


> I just got a new set of Codes (NOT the Code 5) and noticed the issue with the rear brake. Real loud turkey warble and lots of vibration coming from the rear (shakes the whole bike). I took off the brake and ran some of the tests that you guys have done. Like one of you above, I noticed that the inside pistons (closest to the spoke) were not moving when I squeezed the lever. Everything else seemed fine though. I need to re-bleed the brake, and test again. Anyone know how to get the pistons moving again? I hope this is all I need to get it taken care of. Luckily I had an old Hayes Nine sittin around that I can use as a replacement until this is done. No Warble from that, but the codes just feel a TON better. It's not even comparable.


Your Code 5s are brand new, your Nines are, at least, 4 ... likely with glazed pads or rotors or both. Clean the rotors, pads, and buy a rebuild kit (piston rings are the only part that I find ever needs replacing other than that stupid washer), then bleed them ... you'll be amazed at what $15 can do for your braking system.


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## BaronBigWheels (Jul 23, 2009)

I've been working with my LBS about my moaning brakes as well. They mentioned that the lighter the bike the more vibration the actual brace where the brake is bolted will make. In my case 29'er f3 its a HUGE annoyance. After readin the discussions on this issue i came across somebody who solved it with this rotor -
Galfer wave rotor, 6-bolt - 160mm 
my question is, has anybody had any luck changing rotors before i spend the 50-60 on them?


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

BaronBigWheels said:


> After readin the discussions on this issue i came across somebody who solved it with this rotor -
> Galfer wave rotor, 6-bolt - 160mm
> my question is, has anybody had any luck changing rotors before i spend the 50-60 on them?


I never experienced the warble on Juicys using stock rotors. I have been using Galfer rotors and pads for many years with great success. They are slightly thicker so you may need to do a complete set up on the brakes if you go with them. BTI only has 1 160mm in stock so you better think quick. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

eBay has plenty of Galfer/Magura rotors available...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Magura-Marta-SL-160mm-disc-brake-rotor-New-P-N-0721640_W0QQitemZ250414805408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3a4de2b1a0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A2149|293%3A1|294%3A50


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## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

dduk said:


> Taking a Dremel to the rotors with a small sandpaper barrel, and then sanding the surface of the pads always works well for me. Whenever the turkey comes back, just repeat. Doesn't take more than a few minutes.
> 
> I am going to try and switch to EBC organic though . . . .


Just a quick update on my previous post. Switched to EBC pads (tried both green and red) and not a peep since!


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

BaronBigWheels said:


> After readin the discussions on this issue i came across somebody who solved it with this rotor -
> Galfer wave rotor, 6-bolt - 160mm
> my question is, has anybody had any luck changing rotors before i spend the 50-60 on them?


Changing to a Galfer 160mm rotor and pads has worked for the last 1300 miles to keep my rear brake quite.


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## jbsmith (Aug 3, 2008)

Zachariah said:


> eBay has plenty of Galfer/Magura rotors available...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Magura-Marta-SL-160mm-disc-brake-rotor-New-P-N-0721640_W0QQitemZ250414805408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3a4de2b1a0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A2149|293%3A1|294%3A50


Are you saying that Galfer and Magura rotors are the same? I did an ebay search for 'Galfer Rotor' and only returned motorcycle rotors.


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## Ldrunner (Jul 26, 2009)

Please post the Avid phone number when you have a chance.

Jeff


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## CHSAD (Jan 18, 2004)

Had Juicy 7's about 2 years ago. My fix was to sell them. Certainly a powerful brake but I could not take the warble.


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## Ldrunner (Jul 26, 2009)

No need to post Avid number - found it under SRAM.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

jbsmith said:


> Are you saying that Galfer and Magura rotors are the same? I did an ebay search for 'Galfer Rotor' and only returned motorcycle rotors.


I believe the Maguras are stamped copies, Galfer rotors are laser cut and slightly thicker. Your LBS can order from BTI. :thumbsup:

Try this link to the Maguras.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Magu...avclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS287US287


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## AZ_AlanS (Nov 20, 2006)

*Fixed!*

After attempting every suggested fix and taking by bike to several shops for this issue I have finally fixed the vibration and noise associated with my J7's like several of the other poster's here - REPLACED THEM WITH HOPES, PROBLEM SOLVED. I must be far better at installing, adjusting and properly breaking in Hopes vs. Avids.

Avid should be ashamed for there lack of addressing this issue. I will not buy another Avid brake system or bike with Avid brakes on them.


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

AZ_AlanS said:


> After attempting every suggested fix and taking by bike to several shops for this issue I have finally fixed the vibration and noise associated with my J7's like several of the other poster's here - REPLACED THEM WITH HOPES, PROBLEM SOLVED. I must be far better at installing, adjusting and properly breaking in Hopes vs. Avids.
> 
> Avid should be ashamed for there lack of addressing this issue. I will not buy another Avid brake system or bike with Avid brakes on them.


I'm getting close to the same point. I've been messing with mine for a bout a year now. I actually got rid of the warble/vibration by switching to alligator organic pads and alligator wavy rotors, but wasn't' getting quite enough stopping power out of the front with the organics (the rear worked fine with the organics). I then tried using one organic and one semi-metallic pad on the front (a neat trick I read about on these forums). That did get me better stopping power but the vibration also came back though not as bad as originally. Last week I increased the rotor size up front to 180 (I had to modify the avid 185 adaptor) and put some new organic pads on thinking maybe the bigger rotor may make up for the inadequate stopping power of the organics. I've only had it out for a couple of rides and the warble/vibration is gone but I'm still not satisfied with the stopping power up front with the organics. I already know what happens if I put semi-metallics back on. 
Up until now I've been very happy with other Avid products (BB7s and V brakes) so I wouldn't mind sticking with Avid on a replacement brake, but I'd like to know that they understand what the problem is/was and have fixed it in their current models (or let us know which models work).


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Magura exclusively licenses Galfer International to produce all their rotors...they are still the real deal.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Zachariah said:


> Magura exclusively licenses Galfer International to produce all their rotors...they are still the real deal.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Good to know. :thumbsup:


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

trailville said:


> I already know what happens if I put semi-metallics back on.


Since you changed the rotor size, you may have better luck with the semi-metallics. By all means, give it a shot.


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

gmcttr said:


> Since you changed the rotor size, you may have better luck with the semi-metallics. By all means, give it a shot.


To be honest, I probably will try that (actually I'll probably go with the organic/semi-metallic combo setup) though I think I know what the outcome will be and am likely just prolonging my agony. I do have new pads sitting in a box in my basement so I guess the saga continues.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

*Magic Rotor*

Hi All,

Well I purchased a Stumpy 29er with Avid Juicy Ultimates and I have the dreaded "vibration" from the rear brake. I'm not the only one with this issue on the Stumpy 29ers, so I contacted Specialized. They said they know of the issue and have worked with Avid to provide a solution to eliminate the vibration. Here it is:







</a>

I tried it today just around my house and it seems to have worked. I was braking and pedaling at the same time with no noise or vibration. I will give an update after hitting some trails. Oh yeah, Specialized gave me the magic rotor for free under their warranty. I've had the bike for a little over a month.

And yes, it was called "magic rotor" on the packaging.


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

*Fixed - the expensive way*

I feel like wanting to tell my story. This story started in this very same thread some posts ago. http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=4801102&postcount=132

First of all, I swapped my banged J7's for a pair of brand new Carbon Elixirs (the carbon lever does little to improve the vibration issues afaik). But the vibration and the warble were still there, only muffled, with less intensity. It must be said, the rotors came from the Juicies, since I purchased the Elixirs on the cheap, without any hardware.

I was determined to get rid of it. Forvever. I got a new hose for the rear caliper and discarded the one that came with the brake. Afterwards the brake was filled with Motorex DOT 5.1 (http://www.motorexusa.com/prod_detail.asp?id=80) not Avid's or Hayes' own fluid and bleeded twice, maybe three times.

The following step was replacing Avid forged mounting adaptors with a pair of Hope machined brackets. Maybe these had better tolerances than the formers.

It wasn't enough, so I traded my soul for a set of floating rotors from hope (good God! :thumbsup: ) The only drawback is they are not entirely compatible with elixir calipers. Nothing that a pair of washers/shims/spacers won't solve.

The brakes (both) have been working perfectly to the day. As a backup, i have a set of organic pads just in case. By the looks of it, I'm not going to use them.

Listen, it's easy to fix your brakes if you have a spare kidney to sell... Please don't do this at home.

Fellas, thanks for your patience.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Birdss said:


> And yes, it was called "magic rotor" on the packaging.


An Avid G3 Cleansweep without the cutouts.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

gmcttr said:


> An Avid G3 Cleansweep without the cutouts.


That's exactly what it is. The guys at the shop, and I, got a kick out of the packaging saying "magic rotor" on it. The rotor itself has no markings on it whatsoever. No Avid label and no torque specifications.

It does eliminate the vibration and it's very quiet. I'm happy.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Since the Juicy 3s on the 2010 Giant XTC 29er 1 I am testing began the rear brake gobble before the first ride was over, I spent some time playing around with it last night after sifting through this thread. Amazing reading.

My thoughts after dinkin' around with it: The CPS (?) washer system is suspect. I was able to spin the wheel in the workstand and flex the caliper over into the rotor till pads rubbed by pushing on the caliper with my fingers. Jeeeez. Pretty wobbly. I have to wonder, since all through the years and models of Avid brakes, the constant is the cupped washers and the way it places the calipers on a stack of little plates instead of a solid block of alu.

I am not saying that the washers are the cause, but that any other issue...flex in the frame mounts/stays, rotor issues, pad issues, etc, all get magnified by the mounting allowing enough movement/flex to build a resonance into the caliper body.

I looked at my cheapy Shimano LX brakes and they are solidly spaced on the frame bosses...no stack of washers. I wonder if anyone has tried replacing the washers with a solid spacer, not a stack of flat washers?

If I missed this point in the epic novel of this thread and this has already been discussed to death, sorry. I missed it and I am Captain Obvious for the day.


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## compression (Nov 14, 2006)

I replaced the Juicy 7's that came on my bike with 2008 shimano XT's. I kept the Avid rotors though, and I still have the turkey sound come up occassionally. New rotors next on the list.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

mtroy said:


> My thoughts after dinkin' around with it: The CPS (?) washer system is suspect. QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with this. Why not get rid of those cupped washers??
> 
> ...


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## deepwoods (Dec 18, 2006)

08 Enduro SL Comp. Never had any issues until I had the rear wheel upgraded under warranty, went from a Deore POS to a DT Swiss 240 Hub with G3 rotor. Turkey Gobble from get go. Very, Very frustrating and expensive rebuilt rear caliper. I am done with the headache. Selling Jucy 5's (if that is possible) Going with Formula K24's Front and Rear.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

As a follow up to my post back in May:

Since Avid replaced my pads and rotors, I have had no turkey gobble issues.

The replacement rotors appear to be very similar, if not the same as the originals - they certainly aren't the Magic Rotor.

Avid's instructions upon receiving the new pads and rotors was to bed them in very thoroughly before taking the bike on the trail. I probably did 80-100 hard stops before taking the bike off road.

I can't say whether the rotors were perhaps different than the originals, or if the extended bedding effort made a difference, but my Juicy Carbons are now working the way I expect them to: smooth and quiet.

-Pete


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## pedalwrench (Oct 9, 2005)

I just found the best way to get rid of the noise in my Juicy 7's.

Sell them on craigslist.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

pedalwrench said:


> I just found the best way to get rid of the noise in my Juicy 7's.
> 
> Sell them on craigslist.


Seems like a solution.

The new magic rotor didn't work. Avid sucks!!!!!!


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

This isn't black voodoo magic. This is a physics problem. So far almost all of the things everybody is trying has no basis. It's all been just random experimentation. The most successful random experiment: change your whole brake system and declare that your old brakes suck. High risk if it doesn't work and potentially high price.

For those of you who have the resonance problem while using the rear brake:

1. Cleaning your rotors or calipers, changing the rotor brand or size or type, realigning your calipers probably won't do anything.

2. Your frame is resonating at a specific frequency and your choices are to change the frequency/amplitude of the vibration feeding into the frame or change the resonant frequency of your frame. (e.g. install a different brand of brakes, change your frame, modify your frame to change it's natural frequency)

*Try one simple and free test and let me know what happens: Ziptie and duct tape the largest/heaviest socket or lead sinker to the top of your caliper. Start big and heavy. *

For me, although it's ugly, it was a free solution and it works. Black caliper and black duct tape. Hardly anybody notices.

-Chuck


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## TechniKal (Mar 18, 2004)

The socket trick definitely helped my issue with Elixirs. 

Why are Avid brakes seemingly prone to this issue? Is their caliper weight significantly different than other makers?


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

chuckjoga said:


> This isn't black voodoo magic. This is a physics problem. So far almost all of the things everybody is trying has no basis. It's all been just random experimentation. The most successful random experiment: change your whole brake system and declare that your old brakes suck. High risk if it doesn't work and potentially high price.
> 
> For those of you who have the resonance problem while using the rear brake:
> 
> ...


Interesting. I will try that. Have to shop in the local tire store parking lot for some lead.

However, why Avid? Why has this been a particularly thorny issue with Avid brakes waaaay over any other? I still suspect the mounting system as a tiny amplifier of vibrations, but that is just my gut feeling. It is the common piece in all the models and generations of brakes.


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

TechniKal said:


> The socket trick definitely helped my issue with Elixirs.
> 
> Why are Avid brakes seemingly prone to this issue? Is their caliper weight significantly different than other makers?


Great to hear that you've identified your problem and have a workaround. The problem certainly exists in specific brake/frame combinations.

I don't think that this is specific to Avid brakes. I have this problem with Hayes 9 brakes on a Cannondale F29 singlespeed. The stock Avid mechanical brakes were fine except lacking in power. The newer bike uses Juicy 3 brakes and I assume that this is not a problem.

-Chuck


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## yourideit (Jan 18, 2009)

*you must be kidding. THAT worked?*

i've tried lots of things... this morning i put a thin washer at the bottom of the stack. i rode a ten mile loop today with the normal screaming and vibration that is my rear brake. no luck.

back at the truck i found some 1/2 ounce sinkers and attached with a couple of zip ties. i did thirteen more miles with no screaming and no vibration. it worked! i can't believe someting this half assed worked (hey people at avid, are you seeing this?). i'm thinking about adding a barbless hook so i can troll for chipmunks. :thumbsup:

so, if you have a 09' stumpy marathon 29er with that ultimate/elixer caliper, one ounce of lead poorly, yet snuggly, attatched with zip ties should get rid of your noise.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

yourideit said:


> i'm thinking about adding a barbless hook so i can troll for chipmunks. :thumbsup:
> 
> so, if you have a 09' stumpy marathon 29er with that ultimate/elixer caliper, one ounce of lead poorly, yet snuggly, attatched with zip ties should get rid of your noise.
> 
> View attachment 475349


I've got one, and I'm going fishing for squirrel!!!!

Avid, I don't catch and release either.....listening yet??


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Nope. But I would have taken the extra weight penalty if it would have stopped the vibration. I've tried everything except for adding fishing weights to the caliper like yourideit did. My LBS says it's the frame/brake combination and they're gonna try and get my 09 Stumpy 29er frame replaced with an 2010. The 2010's have done away with the sliding dropouts.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Well, I will be dipped. The lead weight worked like magic. I actually found that I could ride along, apply the rear brake, hear the noise and touch the caliper with the toe of my shoe ever so lightly and the noise would stop.

Then I put on the weight, first with wire, and then with dble stick tape. No warble at all so far. I actually went to a different weight that fit the contour of the caliper nicely. Field testing to come, but wow.

EDIT: There is a surprising amount of flex in the CS/brake mount of the Giant. I can push on the caliper with my fingers and see the frame twist, enough to easily apply the brake if the wheel is turning in the workstand. My Lenzsport is better in this regard and the steel Jabberwocky even better still. Perhaps a price to pay for a <4lb frame?


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## ryebred (Aug 29, 2008)

Adding weights on brake calipers is not a new thing. The new Camaro had it to reduce vibrations. Maybe Avid will wake up and come out with a redesign of the caliper.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

First people's sneakers wearing holes in the sides of shimano xt crank arms and now fishing weights on brake calipers. This place is :crazy:

(I'm going to try the sinkers on my rear caliper tonight)


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## chuckjoga (Mar 3, 2008)

ryebred said:


> Adding weights on brake calipers is not a new thing. The new Camaro had it to reduce vibrations. Maybe Avid will wake up and come out with a redesign of the caliper.


Not much of anything is really "new". It's usually the same old stuff rehashed.

And, it's not a problem with the caliper. It's a problem with the combination of caliper and frame. Everything has a natural resonant frequency. If you apply a frequency close to that natural frequency, it will start resonating out of control. Sort of like an out of balance wheel. Get it up to the right speed and it will shake like hell. A little faster or slower and it will smooth out. Adding to or taking weight away from the frame or caliper is analogous to this.

-Chuck


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

This thread is like a bad dream. I probably should have unsubscribed a long time ago but it is funny in a sick sort of way to hear the fixes and solutions to such a widespread issue. I have run Juicy 7's (the same 1or 2 sets of 08's) on more than 7 or 8 frames- only one ever had an issue... but when it did it was like Oh.... thats what they mean... it made my bike all but un-ridable. Every once in a while you get the poor sap with a bit of water or grinding or squeal thinking it might be the turkey warble....no you would have no question in your mind if you have actually had it.ke

Anyway for all those still dealing with it I feel for you... special potions, spacers, rotors, fishing weights and throwing salt over your shoulder are great fun to hear about but the only true fix is to replace the brakes or the bike-  

By no means let me slow down the never ending "I fixed it!" you'll find out the hard way.Ha


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I have had Avid Ultimates on my Spec'd Enduro SL since I got it a little over a year ago. I never had the turkey gobble on the bike until last week. 

2 or 3 months ago I got in a bind where I had a badly bent rotor and the only open LBS on Saturday night had only 180mm aftermarket rotors. I put one without using different adapters knowing I was introducing a problem in the system. They worked great, I really didn't notice any difference in stopping power and no noises at all. 

Once the pads wore down to the point where the top edges of both pads that weren't touching the disc were hitting each other, I decided to put an Avid 185mm rotor back on. I replaced the pads at the same time. I went out for a ride and after 45 mins or so I started getting the gobble. Horrendous shudder through my whole bike. 

I did the careful realignment last night, no idea if it did anything. 

I suppose the important information here is that I did not move the calipers when swapping the pads, so the misalignment should have been there right along. 

John


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## TupacAmaru (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't like turkeys. And I don't like turkey gobbles comming from my brakes.


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## JG_CAAD (Jul 24, 2009)

Hello,
just bought a Rush 5, with a Lefty, with a set of Avid Juicy 5. 180mm front rotor and 160mm in the back.
The front brake works great but the rear one is like a sinphony of crikets. While i'm coasting the noise is weaker and stronger while pushing the pedals.
When the the brake lever is aplyed the noise stops. After the rotor cooled of the criket comes again.
I've tried CPS alignement. The rotor isn't true, because when i look at the interval between the pads i can see clearly the that.
I'll try some of the recomendations and see if i can work it out.

Thanks


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

The turkey gobble is entirely different than chirping. The gobble is only there when you apply your brakes. If you rotor is not straight, I would fix that and the crickets should go away. That is NOT an Avid specific problem, whereas the gobble appears to be. 

John


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Jisch said:


> That is NOT an Avid specific problem, whereas the gobble appears to be.
> 
> John


Actually the turkey gobble problem is not Avid specific.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Huh, I was not aware that there were other brands with this issue (I've never had the problem before with Hayes or Shimano - my only other hydro experience).


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Jisch said:


> Huh, I was not aware that there were other brands with this issue (I've never had the problem before with Hayes or Shimano - my only other hydro experience).


Well I've had the vibration/resonance turkey gobble problem on brakes as far back as 2001 Magura Louises on a Cannondale Jekyll. Most recently I've had the problem on two sets of Hayes Stroker Trails and a set of 2008 XTs. My set of Juicys made every noise imaginable except turkey gobble but I have ridden other riders bikes with these brakes and turkey gobble.

Over the last couple of years Giant has spec'd the Strokers on many of its FS bikes and that combination has resulted in quite a few threads here and on the Giant forum about turkey gobble.


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## JG_CAAD (Jul 24, 2009)

Today i removed the wheel, sandpapered the disc, a little more CPS aligment and the crikets, apparently, have gone way. 
Thanks


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Just to keep my little experiment documented. I found my old, bent disc in the parts bin and straightened it out. Honestly I'm not sure why I didn't do this before - it wasn't bent that badly - I must have been lazy and feeling rich that day I bought the new disc. I took the brand new disc off and put the old straightened one on. 

Amazing how little braking power I had initially - despite the fact that I had a used rotor and pads that had a ride on them - this proves to me that the "bedding in" process has more to do with matching the micro-grooves in the disc with the same in the pads. That may be something others knew already, but it was news to me.

I rode my bike up and down the driveway for 20 mins doing hard stops over and over again - probably did 80-100 hard stops. I now have good stopping power and no turkey gobble yet. 

If this works, then I would say that it is a bed-in issue. I did nothing special when I changed my disc and pads last week, I put them on and went out for a ride (just like what I've done every time I've put on new discs/pads). 

I'll update after today's ride. 
John


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Three hours of riding today, no gobble, great power. 

John


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## Endurosl (Aug 24, 2009)

my rear brake vibrates as hell it as only 3months do any one have some susgestion to eliminate de vibration . It is a avid juicy 5 . please i am geting :madman: 
Thanks godd ride


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

Endurosl said:


> my rear brake vibrates as hell it as only 3months do any one have some susgestion to eliminate de vibration . It is a avid juicy 5 . please i am geting :madman:
> Thanks godd ride


Well if you read back over all 5 million posts in this thread, you'll see many people with the same problem. Many have found solutions, but there doesn't seem to be one solution that works for everyone. For me, I switched to different rotors, and the problem was solved.

Good luck.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

Yeah, read back or search for the "millions" of posts regarding this. Check alignment of your calipers.


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## Yukon-RSX (Feb 6, 2007)

Am I the lucky one? Since owning a bike with Juicy 4's on I've never had turkey warble or squeaking. I had it once for about 2 minutes at 3 miles, but since then I've done about 240 miles - never had a problem.


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## DM-SC (Jan 12, 2004)

Yukon-RSX said:


> Am I the lucky one? Since owning a bike with Juicy 4's on I've never had turkey warble or squeaking. I had it once for about 2 minutes at 3 miles, but since then I've done about 240 miles - never had a problem.


Careful Yukon! You might jinx yourself!


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## Bruce372 (Jul 3, 2008)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

i would really like to meet the person that allowed these POS brakes to be sold to the public so i can kick him in the nuts.

juicy 7s on my hardtail have the gobble, and the elixers on my FS do it also- ive only ridden it twice!!!! i rode over 3 hours today, and every time i hit the brake i got the noise and these vibrations all the way up the frame and to the pedals.


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## ZipZip (May 21, 2008)

Just to throw my 2 pennies in, I've had this same mysterious (and dreaded) turkey gobble/squeal, frame-shaking, rear hub-loosening howl on the rear of a brand new set of Avid Codes (180 mm rotor) since day one. These are on a Giant Reign X0.

Fixes that failed:
Cleaned/sanded pads
New pads
New rotor (same size)
CPS adjustment (multiple times)

*What worked: * 
Not necessarily needing the power of a 180 mm rotor in the back, I threw on a 165 mm rotor (Avid) and caliper bracket just because I had them laying around - BAM - problem solved. I don't know if it was the change in the weight of the bracket or the resonant frequency of the rotor, but something worked.

Next up was facing caliper mount on the frame (even though it appeared that way already), but I didn't feel like buying the $140 tool. I also was ready to try the glue weights to the caliper trick, but (luckily) didn't get that far.

Your mileage may vary.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

What's weird is that the CPS bolts should make up for any variance on the disc mounting tabs. Just the same, I've always wondered if the drawback to CPS bolts is they have too many degrees of freedom, thereby allowing for calipers aligned at skewed angles.


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Until I "fixed" my J7 howl, those same wheels when on my OTHER bike that has HFX-9 brakes did not howl at all (same frame, oddly). I have a feeling it's the composite brake mounting adapters that my bike has that make it more likely to howl.


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## simon wilkins (Apr 9, 2009)

*avid juicy 5*



rex_quando said:


> I'm having the turkey trouble with my rear avid juicy 5. So far I've tried sanding the pads, cleaning the rotor, and re-calibrating them (loosen mounting bolts, sqeeze the brake lever and re-tighten), to no avail. Sometimes it goes away but always comes back. I've noticed a very slight warp in the rotor which I suspect is the source of the problem. I'm going to call avid as sugested above and see what happens.
> 
> One other thing I notice which may or may not be related--my casette wobbles quite a bit as the whell turns, which I've read is fairly normal, but I wonder if it contributes to the apparent rotor warp. I wonder this because when I remove the rotor and lay it on a flat surface I see no warp, I can only see it when I peer down the rotor as it's spinning on the wheel, in relation to the pads. Just a thought but I wonder if there is a connection here--I also wonder this because it seems to be more common on the rear wheel.


HI THAT IS EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEM I HAVE THAT THE CASETTE SEMS TO WOBBLE AND THE DISC SEEMS WARPED WHEN THE REAR WHEEL IS TURNING AND I GET A HOISE COMING FROM THE BACK NOW AND AGAIN IT IS SO ANOYING WHEN OTHER PEOPLE ARE ON ARGOS BIKES AND MY CANNONDALE IS SINGING AWAY!!! FROM THE REAR BRAKE.HAVE YOU FOUND A SOLUTION TO THIS YET IF SO LET US KNOW MY BIKE IS ONLY 4 MONTHS OLD THANKS


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## GiantMartin (Sep 12, 2007)

The bottome line is shame on Avid. This post alone has some 300-400 replies, and there's forums like this one all over the world with people posting the same stuff, so there is no way Avid would not know about this problem. Crap.


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## GiantMartin (Sep 12, 2007)

Do the new Elixir have the same problem or is it a Juicy problem?


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## norcosam (Sep 27, 2008)

Mine cr's are very noisy when wet.I have only just fitted them so i will have a play with the caliper setup.
At least these still work when they warble unlike my "Ones" which didnt work.


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## AZ_AlanS (Nov 20, 2006)

GuruAtma said:


> Well if you read back over all 5 million posts in this thread, you'll see many people with the same problem. Many have found solutions, but there doesn't seem to be one solution that works for everyone. For me, I switched to different rotors, and the problem was solved.
> 
> Good luck.


Actually, there is one solution that has worked for everyone that has tried it - replace the J7's with brakes that work properly like Hopes. I tried all of the "tricks" including new rotors, reduced rotor sizes etc. with same results. The only fix that I did not try is adding weights to the calipers. With all of the dollars that we spend to make our bike lighter, why would one attach lead weights to the same bike in an attempt to make a crappy brake system tollerable?

I have had Hope M4's on my Enduro for a couple of months now. Much superior modulation/control and no noise or vibration. I now enjoy riding my bike again!


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

AZ_AlanS said:


> Actually, there is one solution that has worked for everyone that has tried it - replace the J7's with brakes that work properly like Hopes. I tried all of the "tricks" including new rotors, reduced rotor sizes etc. with same results. The only fix that I did not try is adding weights to the calipers. With all of the dollars that we spend to make our bike lighter, why would one attach lead weights to the same bike in an attempt to make a crappy brake system tollerable?
> 
> I have had Hope M4's on my Enduro for a couple of months now. Much superior modulation/control and no noise or vibration. I now enjoy riding my bike again!


You are right, but if the cost of quiet brakes vs. replacing brakes is only a few ounces of weight and some small amount of time, then it is a bargain. However, if you want to write the check, then that works too.

It does make one wonder...what do the guys/gals at Avid say about this off the record-around the water cooler-in the board rooms? And they seem to be the OE brake of choice for so many brands. Must be VERY attractive pricing for the bike manufacturers.


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## robe (Oct 31, 2005)

*How bout replacing the bolts?*

I too have the turd-key warble - more like a goose in distress honk - on my rear J7s. For what it's worth, I have a Soul Cycles Dillinger. I've read as much as I can read on this post. At least in what I've read, I didn't come across anyone who changed the bolts that mount the caliper to the bracket or the bolts that mount the bracket to the frame.

While adding anti-seize to all the CPS cups and washers (btw, it did reduce the honk a bit), I noticed the bolts had a really high zinging resonating sound when I placed them on my granite countertop. I was kinda surprised by it - almost like that of a tuning fork. Much more resonation than I hear from most other bolts at least.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has already tried replacing any of these bolts?

I apologize if I missed it if someone already did. There's alot to read here.

Robert


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

robe said:


> At least in what I've read, I didn't come across anyone who changed the bolts that mount the caliper to the bracket or the bolts that mount the bracket to the frame.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has already tried replacing any of these bolts?


While I always believe that experimentation is king - it's how we discover new things - I would be surprised if the bolts were the culprits here. Although they may resonate when loose, intimate contact with the washers and caliper bracket essentially makes them part of one larger piece that will have its own resonant frequency (and this wouldn't be such an ugly problem if the vibration were to occur at the high resonant frequency of the bolts - it's the lower resonant frequency of the caliper assembly that causes a higher magnitude of vibration which we feel through the frame - for those who may be confused, for a given input into a resonating system, the lower the resonant frequency, the larger the magnitude of oscillation).

Mass-loading the calipers is a workaround for some because it changes the resonant frequency of the caliper assembly enough that the stimulus of the vibrating pads/rotor are not at the right frequency to send the caliper assembly into resonance. I call this a work around because it does nothing to address the root cause: the fact that the pads/rotor are vibrating severely enough to send the caliper assembly into resonance. Something is going wrong at the pad/rotor interface.

Disc brakes should stop smoothly, especially on a 26" wheel at mtn bike speeds.

I agree that Avid needs to step up here and offer some proven solutions. While it's clear that this problem has affected other manufacturers, Avid seems to have the largest number of customers with this problem. As a disc brake manufacturer, they should know their stuff and be scolling the market on how to have smooth, quiet brakes.

Regarding my bike, the '08 Scalpel (L) with Avid Juicy Carbons: the front is still smooth and quiet after the new pads/rotors, however, the turkeys have returned to the rear. It took a couple hundren miles for them to return to the rear, but they're back. Of course, I'm wondering what the heck changed since they were smooth and quiet. I haven't had a chance to play around with them since the turkeys returned.

-Pete


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## AZ_AlanS (Nov 20, 2006)

mtroy said:


> You are right, but if the cost of quiet brakes vs. replacing brakes is only a few ounces of weight and some small amount of time, then it is a bargain. However, if you want to write the check, then that works too.
> 
> It does make one wonder...what do the guys/gals at Avid say about this off the record-around the water cooler-in the board rooms? And they seem to be the OE brake of choice for so many brands. Must be VERY attractive pricing for the bike manufacturers.


Not only do I want to write the check, I did and now have a smokin' deal on a slightly used set of J7's for anyone that is interested. They have a brand new set of organic pads on them.

I am certain that the price point is the motive for bike manufacturers choosing Avid products even with all of the complaints. After all, noone that I know of has died (yet) from the noise or vibration that results from the poor design and quality of these brakes.


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

robe said:


> I too have the turd-key warble - more like a goose in distress honk - on my rear J7s. For what it's worth, I have a Soul Cycles Dillinger. I've read as much as I can read on this post. At least in what I've read, I didn't come across anyone who changed the bolts that mount the caliper to the bracket or the bolts that mount the bracket to the frame.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has already tried replacing any of these bolts?
> 
> ...


I did. I changed the bolts that mount the bracket to the frame from the original ones to Hope's and then to titanium. Steel, copper, even bakelite washers (lasted 1 ride by the way) and no washers at all. Also replaced the rotor (to the hub) bolts for titanium "just in case". Neither of them worked.

You don't need to apologise, mate.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Just to update my experiment. I have ridden for a few weeks and no turkeys yet. On today's ride it sounded like they were going to return, I kinds heard a little squeak. I jammed on the brakes a few times and they never really returned. I'm really leaning towards a bed in issue.

John


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Double post.

John


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Mine have become completely "when I apply the brakes" silent ... the cost? My brakes rub ALL the time. I have no idea why this makes them quiet (by the way, my J7s were the quietest ones I had heard yet, when not rubbing ... still not exactly quiet though) but, since I am only using the bike for shuttle service at this time, I don't mind. When I gte off the lifts, I have a set of 6-pot Hopes that a friend gave me because he was going insane trying to get them not to be complete pieces of crap ... I will be switching out my J7s for those once I rebuild them. When those don't work well (which, I am sure, will happen) I will be putting on a set of Saints ... who knows, maybe Shimano can make brakes.

Edit: I just read back a little, the "adding weight" thing is interesting; I was thinking it might be a "light caliper" issue but never thought to just add weight to it. Now, what about gluing a dampening material to the caliper? Something that won't melt, of course.

Edit2: I have a '07SX Trail frame, and 180-ish mm rotors in the back (I tried a 160mm, actually got a lot of brake fade, didn't expect that) and semi-metallic pads


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Jisch said:


> I'm really leaning towards a bed in issue.


That was Avid's story last fall when they sent me new pads and rotors (same ones I already had). It worked for a few months on the rear, but the turkeys eventually came back in force. The front has been good since the replacement.

A set of Juicy Ultimates will be making their way onto my new frame ('08 Scalpel Carbon frame is being replaced by the '09 model). I talked to one LBS owner who had these brakes on his Scalpel Team and he's had no issues whatsoever. I'll be sure to let you guys know how they work out, but as most of us know, it sometimes takes weeks or months before the damn gobblers show up and won't go away.

-Pete


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## ThePhizz (May 25, 2009)

I've heard organic brake pads work well to eliminate the noise. I have no experience with them but my juicy's sing like birds too. Though if the disc is warped you problems may be greater than a simple pad change.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> Actually the turkey gobble problem is not Avid specific.


By and large it is.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

It may be much more common with Avid brakes or be much more well known because Avid sell so many more brakes than other manufacturers but it’s by no means an Avid specific problem.


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## grivooga (Mar 14, 2009)

My Juicy 3s on my GF HiFi Plus start to gobble every couple of weeks and just get worse if they're ignored. Problem usually takes about 4-6 weeks to show up in the rear and 2-3 months in the front. When the problem shows up it seems like one piston has become dominant and is extending faster and further than the opposite piston. Working the pistons in and out until they're extending evenly then recentering the caliper seems to fix it every time. Keeping all the rear linkages torqued to specs every few weekends seems to help. Annoying but overall pretty easy to do.


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

EGF168 said:


> It may be much more common with Avid brakes or be much more well known because Avid sell so many more brakes than other manufacturers but it's by no means an Avid specific problem.


I would say that, of the brake systems I see around and have personally used (XT, XTR, HFX-9, HFX-Mag, countless mechanical discs, J7, J5, Hope 2, 4 and 6 pot, Formula somethingrathers) the Juicy line are the only ones that are annoyingly loud. Many brakes squeak, or rub (knife sharpening sounds, my HFX-Mags were bad for that), but nothing like the howl of the Juicy brakes .. or that annoying gobble. I don't really understand WHY it's so bad on the Juicy brakes, but it is ... consistently.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

*Another account of unequal piston extension*

I just realized the other night that the right piston of my rear ultimate hasn't moved since new (6 months ago). I was told to bleed it so I did. Both pistons are extended equally now and the central slot of the caliper is perfectly centered over the rotor. No warble on a 12 mile ride yesterday with plenty of long decents.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

One more update to my saga: On a ride the other day I felt the vibration starting. I immediately did three hard stops and it went away, its been three rides since with no issues. I suppose it could be a stuck piston or just gunk on the rotor, but a few hard stops seems to fix it. 

I'll report back if something changes. 
John


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## sammysmc (Feb 13, 2007)

I read most of this thread and read some experimenting with different washers for the mounting bolts, but has anyone tried using some rubber washers somewhere in the stack to isolate the caliper from the frame a little?

Similar to the way a harley davidson motor can be "rubber mounted" to keep the vibes down, as opposed to a solid mount.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

sammysmc said:


> I read most of this thread and read some experimenting with different washers for the mounting bolts, but has anyone tried using some rubber washers somewhere in the stack to isolate the caliper from the frame a little?


My concern with this would be durability. You're not likely to be able to insert something between the caliper and its mount that is more than a millimeter or so thick. Given this constraint on thickness and the relatively small surface are of contact, I would expect the compliant material to break down rather quickly.

Keep in mind, also, that compliance in the mounting scheme will put slightly more stress on the mounting hardware.

-Pete


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## ECEGatorTuro (May 26, 2009)

I just tried a fix that someone had mentioned in another thread. The howling has been driving me insane since I bought my bike and I was trying all of the cheaper options. Since it seems to be a resonance problem, some people have tried to put lead weights to the caliper in an effort to dampen the resonance. This definitely does work but sticking some lead weights onto the caliper bothered me a little. Instead, I tried to dampen the frame of the bike with an old tube I had lying around. Check this out... it worked out like a charm and now my brakes are almost perfectly silent!

EDIT: BTW, I have Avid Juicy 3's with 165mm rotors on a Cannondale Caffiene 4 29er


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Isn't this whole warbling thing largely a damping issue?

I noticed on my new Stroker pads that an elastic band has been melted on in strategic places? Unless mine were some weird anomaly..


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Re-cap on my situation:

I had Juicy 5's on a 2005 Fisher HKEK hardtail. I had warbling issues out the yingyang. I bought a Jamis XLT frame and there was no noise at all with the exact same brakes swapped over to the new frame. I sold the XLT frame and moved all of the components over to a 2004 Komodo hardtail frame. (more of a trail bike than the 2005+ freeride hardtail design) My same Juicy 5's were un-bearable on the "rear", but quiet on the front. Avid sent Code 5's. Same dealio. Jamis sent me a 2005 frame (freeride hardtail) and the Code 5's went byebye. I threw on some Elixir R's.

Now: Front is still quiet. Rear has no gobble. Just a tiny "squeak" now and then.



I think it has more to do with the frame design than anything.


I could visibly see the rear caliper on the 2004 Komodo flexing forward and inward during braking. The rear triangle was not gusseted. When I applied the rear brake and it flexed forward and inward, this caused the caliper alignment to be moot. It was forced out of line the harder I applied the brakes. I think another huge dynamic to this is the rider weight. A larger rider (like my 200lb self) will require more braking force to stop them. The increased weight will make more traction with the ground causing more flex and stress on the I.S. mounts. Because of this, I will probably never buy another frame without vertical support struts on the left rear triangle. Look at the Hardrocks / Rockhoppers. There's a little vertical support tube welded from the chainstay to the seat stay by the disc caliper. My HKEK had no support strut, 2004 Komodo had no strut, my 2005 Komodo and XLT had plenty of support in that area.

I'm not gonna say it's all frame...but I think a great deal of the issue has alot more to do with the frame than the brakes.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

I've found that as my Elixir pads have worn down to about 1/3 from new, the brakes are actually working better. Now I have better rotor/pad gap, no rub and any previous noise issues mostly gone. I think as the pads wear & become thinner, the distance from pad to piston is less - which equals more solid compression from the caliper....just a thought.


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

i had this problem with my BB5s, kool stop pads fixed it.


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

chelboed said:


> I think it has more to do with the frame design than anything.
> 
> I'm not gonna say it's all frame...but I think a great deal of the issue has alot more to do with the frame than the brakes.


My friend, you have struck the nail on the head, as several others have. Organic pads will help, but frame design has everything to do with the resonance. I took a set of J7's off of one frame and put the wheels and the brakes onto another and they went from noisy to dead silent.

The more the frame manufacturers try to save weight at the caliper mounting points, the more the frame will howl. The big beefy DH bikes aren't having these problems, just the light frames.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

.40AET said:


> My friend, you have struck the nail on the head, as several others have. Organic pads will help, but frame design has everything to do with the resonance. I took a set of J7's off of one frame and put the wheels and the brakes onto another and they went from noisy to dead silent.
> 
> The more the frame manufacturers try to save weight at the caliper mounting points, the more the frame will howl. The big beefy DH bikes aren't having these problems, just the light frames.


There's a major problem with this theory: most who have this problem did not have the problem right out of the gates. It took my bike more than 150 miles of off road riding (lots of braking) before the problem ever surfaced. I can guarantee you that my frame's characteristics did not change in that time.

While I fully agree that frame weight/strength/design will make some frames much more susceptible to going into resonance than others, and mass-loading either the caliper or frame is indeed a valid workaround. However, I believe the problem is occuring at the pad/rotor interface. Regardless of how feather-light a frame may be, there should not be enough caliper vibration to send the frame into resonance, especially when the brakes are designed for XC use. Manufacturers know darn well that their XC brakes are going to be installed on light frames. Let's also not forget that bikers with full carbon frames, like mine, have had this problem, and carbon is a very non-resonant material - I am certain my frame never went into resonance - it merely transmitted the vibration from the resonating caliper to me. Alloy is a different story.

I believe it is in this thread waaay back a couple pages where one poster speculated that Avid's stamped rotors may play a major role in this problem. If you lightly squeeze the rotor between your fingers and rotate it, you will feel that one side is a bit rougher than the other where the vents are stamped out. This could quite easily cause the forces on one pad to be different from the other, and at the frequency dictated by the vents and wheel speed.

I've only got about 100 miles on my new juicy Ultimates, and while the front has shown some intermittent signs of the turkeys, I haven't experienced any true warbling yet - if I do, I may attempt to file/sand one my spare Avid rotors to see if it makes a difference.

-Pete


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Pedalphile said:


> ...If you lightly squeeze the rotor between your fingers and rotate it, you will feel that one side is a bit rougher than the other where the vents are stamped out. This could quite easily cause the forces on one pad to be different from the other, and at the frequency dictated by the vents and wheel speed.
> 
> I've only got about 100 miles on my new juicy Ultimates...


I would speculate that normal rotor wear would even up any "roughness" from the stamping process in short order.

The first time my brakes had the resonant howl I had 500 miles on the rotors and I guarantee there was no uneven roughness left from the manufacturing process.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

gmcttr said:


> I would speculate that normal rotor wear would even up any "roughness" from the stamping process in short order.
> 
> The first time my brakes had the resonant howl I had 500 miles on the rotors and I guarantee there was no uneven roughness left from the manufacturing process.


My bad - "rougher" was not a very precise description of what I feel with my rotors. The edges of the vents on the outboard side of both my old rotors (350 miles on them) are considerably _sharper_ than the vent edges on the inboard side. This is very easy to feel, and can be tested somewhat objectively by dragging a fingernail over the edges on both sides. I'm assuming this is an effect of the manufacturing process.

If other used Avid rotors do not have this characteristic, then this is likely a red herring. If this is common, however, I do not see how the imperfection could not have a negative effect on the braking system and a likely involvement in the warble conspiracy.

-Pete


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

.40AET said:


> My friend, you have struck the nail on the head, as several others have. Organic pads will help, but frame design has everything to do with the resonance. I took a set of J7's off of one frame and put the wheels and the brakes onto another and they went from noisy to dead silent.
> 
> The more the frame manufacturers try to save weight at the caliper mounting points, the more the frame will howl. The big beefy DH bikes aren't having these problems, just the light frames.


The devil is in the detail. You seem to be then overlooking the role of the pad material in this. That resonating usually occurs here with a sintered hard metallic pad. The organic pad is quieter because it is tougher than sintered, less hard than sintered. The toughness, principally ability to deform, is largely what makes an organic pad quieter I would have thought.

Another part of the chain is the back of the pad, where car drivers and motorcycle users will place copaslip or comma copper ease or some other similar product, on the back of the pad to help dampen the noise of sintered pads. I just fitted Stroker Trails, they are powerful, and so were a tad noisey. I stuck some copper ease on the back of the pad, where the piston comes into contact with the pad, and they quietened down. I recommend this trick.. some of the copper grease will also slip between the caliper piston bore and piston, again, a good thing. Or you could wipe a little around the piston, and wipe off any excess.

I'm not forming any allegiance to any brake manufacturer. I think it's nice to check out as many makes as you like and sell what you dont want on fleabay. I expect ultimately I'll end up on Hopes, which is only right I do cos they are made in my country.


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## Green Giant (Dec 19, 2003)

Solved my Juicy Ultimate rear brake squeek problem.

Step 1 - sell Juicy Ultimates

Step 2 - Buy Shimano XT's.

Seriously, I tried like crazy to get the Ultimates to work, pads, rotors, torque wrench to be precise on the bolts. Facing disc tabs etc. 

I could quiet them down for a while and had the front dead silent with a heavy roundagon rotor, and the rear was only squeeking when dragging the brake to control speed. That said, it just became not worth it.

Bolted up some XT's and silent from the get go, great feel, tons of power, mineral oil.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Green Giant said:


> Solved my Juicy Ultimate rear brake squeek problem.
> 
> Step 1 - sell Juicy Ultimates
> 
> ...


yeah yeah.. blah blah.. but did you try copper grease on the back of the pad like what motorists do...?


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

9speed said:


> yeah yeah.. blah blah.. but did you try copper grease on the back of the pad like what motorists do...?


Anti-squeal and copper grease are OK for automotive brakes because a) the caliper rarely gets enough water on it to cause the grease to migrate onto the disc, and b) even if it does, the brakes reach high enough temperatures to burn any contaminates away.

With bicycle brakes, the risk is in the grease being washed down onto the rotor - especially when cleaners/detergents are used for washing - or gathering enough dust that lumps of grease/dust can migrate onto the pads/rotor. The level of heat in bicycle brakes is only enough to cause oils to soak into the pad compund, effectively ruining them.

I would also expect that, under the right circumstances, grease applied to the back of the pads or directly to the pistons is going to combine with dirt and dust and may start to inhibit the movement of the pistons by clogging the space between the piston, caliper bore and seal.

All in all, greasing the back of the pads has the potential to create more problems than it may cure.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

SteveUK said:


> Anti-squeal and copper grease are OK for automotive brakes because a) the caliper rarely gets enough water on it to cause the grease to migrate onto the disc, and b) even if it does, the brakes reach high enough temperatures to burn any contaminates away.
> 
> With bicycle brakes, the risk is in the grease being washed down onto the rotor - especially when cleaners/detergents are used for washing - or gathering enough dust that lumps of grease/dust can migrate onto the pads/rotor. The level of heat in bicycle brakes is only enough to cause oils to soak into the pad compund, effectively ruining them.
> 
> ...


Well I guess we all pays our money and makes our choices.

A thin smear of copper grease is minimal risk I feel and it did quieten down my brakes. In addition, I don't think copper grease has anywhere near the potential of DOT4 for harming the brake surface. The pads that the Maidenhead bike shop with three letters beginning with D, ending in A and with an N in the middle wrecked with DOT4 could never ne made right. This I acknowledge, and now those new pads are what I use to bleed with along with the travel shim. However, I did get a smidge of copper grease on a pad but it soon was burned away and power returned.. took about 10 lever squeezes...

I've used it sparingly, I'll keep an eye out for issues. I think using a smidge represents minimal risk.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

I tried a very light application of silicone paste on the backside of my pads while I was having the problem to no avail. I had no negative effects, but nothing gained, either.

Silicone paste is also frequently used on automotive brake hardware to keep things quiet and moving freely. 

Has anyone checked out their Avid rotors to see if they have the same asymmetry as mine?

-Pete


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## robertj (Feb 1, 2005)

For those that solved the turkey warble problem by using Galfer pads (with OEM rotors), what pads are you using now?

I’ve been using the Galfer pads on two different sets of Juicy brakes (4 yrs on Carbon and 2 yrs on Seven, on two different bikes), and I'm having trouble acquiring Galfer pads lately.

Prior to my trip to the Alps this summer, I resorted to ordering some Galfer pads from cyclebrakes, where I was sourcing them previously from universalcycles. Cyclebrakes was considerably more expensive, but in the short term for my trip, I was happy to continue to have reliable braking performance (especially for the long DH runs in the Alps), and no turkey warble issues. 

I’d like to hear what comparable pads are out there; ones that are easier to source, have similar performance characteristics to the Galfer pads (I like the Galfer’s stopping power and longevity, but there may be better?), and do not exhibit the turkey warble issues. 

Thanks!


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

ok, does this also happen with the 185mm G2CS rotors? i don't have the time to dig through all these posts, and i was just about to buy some new 185 G2CS's on ebay, if they also do this then i'll not get them


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## Green Giant (Dec 19, 2003)

*Not worth the hassle*



9speed said:


> yeah yeah.. blah blah.. but did you try copper grease on the back of the pad like what motorists do...?


should anyone really have to resort to that? Plenty of good brakes out there. I really wanted the Juicy's to work as they have a nice feel, adjustments, weight, and look.

But at the end of the day, plenty of good brakes out there for similar prices that don't need all the maintenence.

As I've gotten older, and had more kids I'm finding that the less maintenece I have to do, and the less hassles... the better. More time to ride.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

Green Giant said:


> should anyone really have to resort to that? Plenty of good brakes out there. I really wanted the Juicy's to work as they have a nice feel, adjustments, weight, and look.
> 
> But at the end of the day, plenty of good brakes out there for similar prices that don't need all the maintenence.
> 
> As I've gotten older, and had more kids I'm finding that the less maintenece I have to do, and the less hassles... the better. More time to ride.


I don't see it as a question of having to resort to anything. All kinds of products frequently/invariably can do with a little tinkering to make them better/quieter. Lots of products benefit from damping of vibration and sound e.g. fans inside a PC, HDD, case, car panels, CD players. I know of a guy who has an immaculate original VW Beetle from about 1960. His secret? He coated the whole damn thing underneath with grease,

Powerful brakes on lightweight bikes can squeal or judder i think. My Juicies used to make a shimmery cymbal sound. I don't see it as a failing of the product to use a SMALL amount of copper based grease on the back of the pad, Juicy or Stroker. But I guess it depends on how noisy your brakes are!

I have finally become expert at setting up the caliper on the bike.. After pushing pistons all the way back into their bore and re-inserting the pads, I center by eye, little nip to the bolts. I then feather the brake until the pads are nearly at the rotor, all the while checking to see if there is equal piston movement (if not equal, I understand lubricating the slower lazier piston can remedy this situation). I keep feathering gently until both or one pad makes contact. If one pad makes contact, I check that piston movement looks equal, and i make small adjustent of the caliper to make it equal again. Then I feather a bit more, verify equal gap, then clamp the brake lever with rubber band, and gently tighten up the caliper, alternating between the bolts.. perfecto!


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## Yukon-RSX (Feb 6, 2007)

Has anyone ever noticed this on their disc before?










Look at the inside edge. Seems it goes part way round the disc. To me, I blame the warble on that strange damage.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Yukon-RSX said:


> Has anyone ever noticed this on their disc before?
> 
> Look at the inside edge. Seems it goes part way round the disc. To me, I blame the warble on that strange damage.


I'll take a look at mine and let you know.

Can you take a look at my post from 4 Days Ago 10:45 PM (post #484) and let me know if the edges of the vents on your rotors are sharper on one side than the other?

-Pete


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

ya know... i asked my LBS about the problem and he said that it was due to a burr on the inside edge of the rotor that causes the noise... that picture seems to coincide


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

AlexJK said:


> ya know... i asked my LBS about the problem and he said that it was due to a burr on the inside edge of the rotor that causes the noise... that picture seems to coincide


A swing and a miss for your mechanic: my old rotors, which had the turkeys bad, do not show any signs of the burring that yours have:


















I went a step further today and dug up one of my old pads. Upon sliding the pad along each side of the rotor, I can feel the pad pass each vent on the outboard side while the inboard side is smooth. This will easily cause vibration and noise: every time the outboard pad passes over of the vents, it grabs a little more than the inboard pad, and thus tries to twist the caliper at the same frequency the vents are passing the pads. The pads should feel the same sliding on either side of the rotor (and I tested pushing the pads only in their intended direction over the rotor, so this isn't some odd effect that would only occur if you were riding backwards).

-Pete


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Pedalphile said:


> A swing and a miss for your mechanic: my old rotors, which had the turkeys bad, do not show any signs of the burring that yours have:
> ......


From those two images, the upper image definitely shows that it has the 'burr', the lower image does not (edges are "beveled"). I mentioned that making both sides have the 'bevel' basically fixed my problem ... though they were still loud hence why I am using Hopes now (which, in their own right, are garbage as well).


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

ettore said:


> From those two images, the upper image definitely shows that it has the 'burr', the lower image does not (edges are "beveled"). I mentioned that making both sides have the 'bevel' basically fixed my problem ... though they were still loud hence why I am using Hopes now (which, in their own right, are garbage as well).


Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing? I don't see any anomolies on the inside of my rotors, and they feel smooth. I don't have a macro lens, so the pics I took are as close up as I can get. Your rotors look very different on the inside edge than do mine.

Even if there were some type of burr there, the pads should either wear it down in a hurry, or the pads would conform to it.

Is anyone going to bother to check the vent edges of their rotors and report back?

-Pete


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## Yukon-RSX (Feb 6, 2007)

My rotors feel roughly the same on both sides. No random sharp edges.


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

i just took a look at my rotors, some of the vent holes have random burrs on one side and the other side has slightly beveled edges


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## ettore (Nov 13, 2004)

Pedalphile said:


> Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing? I don't see any anomolies on the inside of my rotors, and they feel smooth. I don't have a macro lens, so the pics I took are as close up as I can get. Your rotors look very different on the inside edge than do mine.
> 
> Even if there were some type of burr there, the pads should either wear it down in a hurry, or the pads would conform to it.
> 
> ...


A few pages back (I think my first post in this thread) I mentioned that beveling my vents fixed my problems.

As for your images, looking at them again, it DOES look like both sides of yours are beveled. However, one side like like it has a much less clean bevel. On my rotors, I could REALLY tell the beveled vs non-beveled difference on the blades that go towards the center where they mount. In fact, I was washing my rotors when I figured this out because the rotor cut through a few layers of rag and my finger when I was washing off some surface rust.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

My beveling worked for about 2 miles LOL


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

chelboed said:


> My beveling worked for about 2 miles LOL


What exactly did you bevel, and how? After beveling, did you manually rub a pad around each side of the rotor to compare whether one side produced drag or vibration?

As I stated earlier, when I drag a pad around my old rotors, making sure to rotate int he correct direction, the pad on the outboard side encounters increased friction every time it passes a vent. This will definitely cause the caliper to twist a bit each time the pad passes a vent and cause vibration.

-Pete


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## BLOWNDFIZ (Sep 1, 2009)

You can definitely feel a difference between each side of the rotors. If you run your fingers across the slots of the rotors on the outside of the rotor then run your fingers the same way across the inside you can tell that the outside has a more 90 degree like cut (sharper) whereas the inside on the edges of the slots has a more rounded off feel.

I am going to take some emory cloth and lightly sand the squared edges off of the entire rotor. It will take some time, however I do actually feel this just might eliminate the vibration from coming back.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

BLOWNDFIZ said:


> You can definitely feel a difference between each side of the rotors. If you run your fingers across the slots of the rotors on the outside of the rotor then run your fingers the same way across the inside you can tell that the outside has a more 90 degree like cut (sharper) whereas the inside on the edges of the slots has a more rounded off feel.
> 
> I am going to take some emory cloth and lightly sand the squared edges off of the entire rotor. It will take some time, however I do actually feel this just might eliminate the vibration from coming back.


Cool, please be sure to let us know the results. Do you happpen to have a narrow file? Those rotors are made of some pretty tough stuff, so you are right - emory cloth will take a long time.

I would do the same experiment, but since I was upgraded to Juicy Ultimates, I"ve only had an intermittent hint of the turkeys from just the front. If the turkeys return full force, however, filing the vent edges on the outboard side of my old rotors will be one of the first things I try (actually, I have a Dremel tool and lots of sanding/grinding bits/wheels, so this shouldn't be too much of a chore for me).

-Pete


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## BLOWNDFIZ (Sep 1, 2009)

Pedalphile said:


> Cool, please be sure to let us know the results. Do you happpen to have a narrow file? Those rotors are made of some pretty tough stuff, so you are right - emory cloth will take a long time.
> 
> I would do the same experiment, but since I was upgraded to Juicy Ultimates, I"ve only had an intermittent hint of the turkeys from just the front. If the turkeys return full force, however, filing the vent edges on the outboard side of my old rotors will be one of the first things I try (actually, I have a Dremel tool and lots of sanding/grinding bits/wheels, so this shouldn't be too much of a chore for me).
> 
> -Pete


I will post the results and will also be using the emory wheels on my dremel. By hand would be a killer!


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

so I caught the turkey warble the other day in my rear brakes (Juicy 5's, 160 mm rotors, stock Avid pads, 2 months old). I ignored it hoping it would go away, it didn't. Soon after (coincidence?) I noticed my rear brakes were not stopping me the way I was used to when they were new........like a dumbass, the first thing I did was bleed the brakes, then check for sticky pistons in the caliper, everything looked OK including the bleed.

went for a ride, same thing, I was pressing way too hard on the lever to get the brakes to work. So I checked out the pads (which I should have done to begin with) and they were as shiny as a nickel.....yup, they were glazed.....so I sanded them down, re-inserted and got some improvement but the turkey warble was back.

I just happened to have the KoolStop pads on my front brake instead of the Avid cuz those were the only ones I was able to find at the time, so I switched them around to see what would happen.

Guess what, the KoolStops were perfectly fine in the rear, but now I had the Turkey Warble in the front........and after a short ride the glazing returned....

So I've ordered more KoolStop pads and I can't wait to throw the Avid pads in the trash can....


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## aljodoro (Jul 7, 2004)

*Wow it worked!*

I am so happy. New job and my Avid Juicys no longer vibrate (at least for now). Four years of a lot of time and money spent. Rotors, pads, bleeding, new mounts you name it. If a posting said it was simply not knowing and having the ability to tighten the CPS system properly, I felt like a fool. Then I saw a post here. Why not try it? I have tried everything; it would be a fusion of recreational activities. Maybe it is a new sport. Although I have not salmon fishing in Puget Sound for years I still had the gear. Where are those sinkers? At first all I could find was my fluorescent sinkers, but then I found all my sinkers. Here were my lead gray sinkers - I knew I would need them sometimes. Squirreling away stuff can be so satisfying years later when you need it. It was a blending of proven old technology that uses established protocols-gravity and mass. I would not even have to test or learn force theory to try out the weighting but simply rely on scalability. I had bb shot to 16oz sinkers. Since I have spent a lot of money shoving of ounces of weight, I went light and delicate. To think I spent $90 to save weight by buying a new seat post. (Don't focus on the past I told myself, it is like looking at a rock in the trail - you'll hit it) The more weight I piled on the better the results. Now at 2oz. I think the problem is gone. That is the sweet spot for our two bikes. (Ellsworth Truth - his and hers).

I did a secret trick mounting using hard to find gray zip ties with perfectly positioned holes that I drilled using my drill press - not a hand held drill. My friends have not even noticed the weights. I am like a little person who has gotten away with lifts, something has changed but they can't spot it. Fellow riders no longer can pinpoint me in the forest. It is great. They can no longer pace off of me. We're going riding in an hour. I am so excited; the only downside is maybe I need to wear bear bells as I have lost my noisy friend.

It is interesting as I am now learning a new riding style. Prior to the silent era, I used my FRONT BRAKE A LOT, now I am finesse. Front, blend in the back brake, tap, tap, hold, more pressure, release! I am an Olympic ice figure shaker with clip-ins. Also,no more skid marks on the trail.

My sincere thanks to the person who suggested the weight concept. I mean this. Thank you. It's a brave person to fight the convention of reducing weight; he gambled in speaking out and could have been ridiculed. Add weight-you're crazy!

I wish I still had the 44 pads (yes, it is true) I had tried that I tossed in recycling last June to send to you. Add weight, what an improvement. That's my two ounces.


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## xmangox (Feb 20, 2009)

aljodoro said:


> I am so happy. New job and my Avid Juicys no longer vibrate (at least for now). Four years of a lot of time and money spent. Rotors, pads, bleeding, new mounts you name it. If a posting said it was simply not knowing and having the ability to tighten the CPS system properly, I felt like a fool. Then I saw a post here. Why not try it? I have tried everything; it would be a fusion of recreational activities. Maybe it is a new sport. Although I have not salmon fishing in Puget Sound for years I still had the gear. Where are those sinkers? At first all I could find was my fluorescent sinkers, but then I found all my sinkers. Here were my lead gray sinkers - I knew I would need them sometimes. Squirreling away stuff can be so satisfying years later when you need it. It was a blending of proven old technology that uses established protocols-gravity and mass. I would not even have to test or learn force theory to try out the weighting but simply rely on scalability. I had bb shot to 16oz sinkers. Since I have spent a lot of money shoving of ounces of weight, I went light and delicate. To think I spent $90 to save weight by buying a new seat post. (Don't focus on the past I told myself, it is like looking at a rock in the trail - you'll hit it) The more weight I piled on the better the results. Now at 2oz. I think the problem is gone. That is the sweet spot for our two bikes. (Ellsworth Truth - his and hers).
> 
> I did a secret trick mounting using hard to find gray zip ties with perfectly positioned holes that I drilled using my drill press - not a hand held drill. My friends have not even noticed the weights. I am like a little person who has gotten away with lifts, something has changed but they can't spot it. Fellow riders no longer can pinpoint me in the forest. It is great. They can no longer pace off of me. We're going riding in an hour. I am so excited; the only downside is maybe I need to wear bear bells as I have lost my noisy friend.
> 
> ...


Cliff Notes: 
Tried the "add lead weights" suggestion, and it worked.

See, that wasn't too hard, was it? I mean, really....


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Have not read the thread, but this annoyed me for ages and I found the fix so just incase :-


Grease the Conical Washers, if you look closely you'll see yours are worn smooth, it's vibration in these which causes the noise and do them up real tight to, since then not a issue with them.

Standard Avid pads are also useless.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Turveyd said:


> Have not read the thread, but this annoyed me for ages and I found the fix so just incase :-
> 
> Grease the Conical Washers, if you look closely you'll see yours are worn smooth, it's vibration in these which causes the noise and do them up real tight to, since then not a issue with them.
> 
> Standard Avid pads are also useless.


Been there, done that. It made no difference on my bike. Your cure may have been a simple realignment since you can't access the CPS mounting hardware without realigning the cliper.

The turkeys just started on the front of my bike, so I beveled the edges of the vents on the outboard side of the front rotor, and without making any other changes at all, the turkeys are gone. I know full well not to declare victory yet as sometimes it takes the turkeys awhile to reappear after making a change. This is a good sign however, and I'll repeat the important part: I beveled the edges of the rotor vents and made *no* other changes, and this restored smooth, quiet braking.

I'll keep you folks updated as I put more miles on the now smoother rotors (I did the rear while I was at it since it was giving some hints of pending turkeys).

-Pete


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Worked for me, I do run metal sand paper over the disks from time to time to.

A Mate counter sunk his drilling holes to stop this, using the EBC round hole only rotor though which is easy to do that for in seconds.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Another update to my saga - I guess about a month of riding, no turkeys. I've had them start to come back twice and I did 3 or 4 really hard stops and it went away. I really think its a bedding issue. 

John


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

So, I have the Turkey on my Juicy 7's. I really think it's a pad contamination issue. I have added a washer to the rear mounts and used fine steel wool on the rotor and after 25 miles, I am turkey free. It may show up again, but for now I am happy.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

didn't read this whole thread. But i have the Elixir 4's on my bike and they've howled and the rear has vibrated right out of the box since the first week. Easy braking, hard braking, same thing. 

i have the default elixir 4's (specialized custom) + pads + levers + G3 rotors. 

What are the chances my lbs will know how to fix these? will changing to bb7's be smart or idiotic?


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

louisssss said:


> What are the chances my lbs will know how to fix these?


Probability is approximately 67.443910955%



louisssss said:


> Will changing to bb7's be smart or idiotic?


Why BB7? Is this the only alternative you see to the Elixir? Have you not considered Shimano, Magura or Hope?


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

SteveUK said:


> Probability is approximately 67.443910955%
> 
> Why BB7? Is this the only alternative you see to the Elixir? Have you not considered Shimano, Magura or Hope?


do they have any brake setups that are as good/better than my bike for about $200-250?
i am open to considerations


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## CHSAD (Jan 18, 2004)

For the set? Hmmm...price point xt 760 series for about 180.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

CHSAD said:


> For the set? Hmmm...price point xt 760 series for about 180.


thanks, and do shimano xt brakes have any squealing issues?
i'm lookin at these: http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/18...Shimano-XT-M775-Hydraulic-Disc-Brake-2009.htm , is there anything better for the money? will i need to change my g3 rotor also?


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

CHSAD said:


> For the set? Hmmm...price point xt 760 series for about 180.


Hayes Strokers could be worth a look, as might the Formula K18 or K24, Magura Louise or Shimano SLX.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

louisssss said:


> thanks, and do shimano xt brakes have any squealing issues?
> i'm lookin at these: http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/18...Shimano-XT-M775-Hydraulic-Disc-Brake-2009.htm , is there anything better for the money? will i need to change my g3 rotor also?


Everything has potential for squealing just read this post, allot of squealing going on. :thumbsup:

http://www.spadout.com/c/hydraulic-disc-brake-system/


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

dogonfr said:


> Everything has potential for squealing just read this post, allot of squealing going on. :thumbsup:
> 
> http://www.spadout.com/c/hydraulic-disc-brake-system/


that link is a post? isn't it just a link to some more brakes? lol...

so what do you guys with avid brakes do? just let them squeal while you ride as long as the brakes being you to a stop?


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

louisssss said:


> ...so what do you guys with avid brakes do? just let them squeal while you ride as long as the brakes being you to a stop?


Read this entire thread and you will know what everyone has tried.

For me, a change of pad type (try Jagwire) or a change to a different brand rotor have both worked.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

gmcttr said:


> Read this entire thread and you will know what everyone has tried.
> 
> For me, a change of pad type (try Jagwire) or a change to a different brand rotor have both worked.


can you link me to the pads + rotors you've used?

and has your squealing completely stopped under normal usage?


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

I have Juicy 7's and a centerlock so the exact pads and disk I'm using won't work with your setup (I think).

The pads are "Jagwire Red Zone Disc Brake Pads". My current rotor is a Shimano XT centerlock.

The idea is to change the overall resonant frequency of your bicycle/brake combination. 

Posts 429 and 476 on page 5 of this thread show 2 other (virtually free) methods some have had success with.

Don't give up too fast and spend big $$$'s to replace your whole brake system until you have tried a few of the cheap and easy methods.

That's my $0.02. Do with it what you will.


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## kmorast (Jul 20, 2009)

Hadouken* said:


> I have just installed my new hope floating rotors (203 front, 183 rear), and the demon turkey seems to have gone!!!! I will give them a real ride tonight, but they feel great just riding around my block. I'll post the final verdict later.


I was wondering if these would help. I've always thought a lot of the turkey gobble comes from miss-aligned brakes. Having the rotor float would fix most alignment issues.


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## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

kmorast said:


> I was wondering if these would help. I've always thought a lot of the turkey gobble comes from miss-aligned brakes. Having the rotor float would fix most alignment issues.


They don't float in the way a floating caliper does, or to the extent that floating moto rotors do. The braking surface is separate to the center carrier and the two pieces are held together by rivets. There is zero lateral movement and only the smallest amount of axial movement. They do not allow compensation for misalignment of the caliper.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

at first the mechanic said it was the brakes just breaking in.. and that its fine.

then he did something with a park tool to straighten up the rear rotor and the vibration went away for about 30 stops. but towards the end of my ride home, it kinda came back..

it was a start though and sure felt good for once


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

@louissss - please try this, it worked for me and I had horrible turkeys, I ride about 30 wet muddy miles a week and it has been fine now for over two weeks. It came on sooner when they were new.

I have added a small washer to the rear mounts and used fine steel wool on the rotor and I am turkey free.

I really think there is a pad contamination on the fins of the rotor that cause this.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

SHICKS said:


> @louissss - please try this, it worked for me and I had horrible turkeys, I ride about 30 wet muddy miles a week and it has been fine now for over two weeks. It came on sooner when they were new.
> 
> I have added a small washer to the rear mounts and used fine steel wool on the rotor and I am turkey free.
> 
> I really think there is a pad contamination on the fins of the rotor that cause this.


sorry can you explain what u did to fix this problem?

what size washers? and where did you install them? between the frame and the brakes?

and what did you do with the fine steel wool?


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

I bought 6mm stainless steel washers from Lowes. Installed as seen in the picture. Used steel wool on rotors to clean them. Very fine steel wool.



louisssss said:


> sorry can you explain what u did to fix this problem?
> 
> what size washers? and where did you install them? between the frame and the brakes?
> 
> and what did you do with the fine steel wool?


A picture is worth a thousand words...I'lll get back to you.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

thank you very much, but let me recap before i attempt this,

-install 2 x 6mm washers between the bolt & brake caliper
-Scrub down the rotor with fine steel wool for about 2 minutes
-no more brake squeal & vibration?

ps. by turkey gobble you guys mean the big vibration right?


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

Correct, one washer each side, wipe down with steel wool. Turkey gobble was nails on a chalk board for me, so if that is your big sound, then yes.

YMMV, but this combo worked for me.

Good luck,
Steve



louisssss said:


> thank you very much, but let me recap before i attempt this,
> 
> -install 2 x 6mm washers between the bolt & brake caliper
> -Scrub down the rotor with fine steel wool for about 2 minutes
> ...


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

it looks like my bike already has a washer there, should i add another?


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

Yes, I added another to get the caliper up off the fins.

Edit, I realize this does not raise the caliper, but it worked, sorry for the confusion. Maybe try under.



louisssss said:


> it looks like my bike already has a washer there, should i add another?


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

so where should i place the 2nd washer? just place it on top of the original washer? or right under it?


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

louisssss said:


> so where should i place the 2nd washer? just place it on top of the original washer? or right under it?


Well, I realized I was mis-informing you. I was suggesting you raise you caliper since it looks like it sits so low on the rotor. To do this, I would put the washer under the caliper, not where I suggested, as well as clean the rotors.

The way I did it in the photos worked for me, but I was not riding as low in the rotor as you.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

if only i knew what you were talking about "riding low in the rotor", lol

anyway, it looks like you're saying i SHOULDN'T put those 6mm washers in... right?


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

If you look at your rotor, do you see how it looks worn on the fins and less worn on the very outer part of the rotor? If your rotor was higher it would not be rubbing the fins and be more on the on the thicker part of the rotor. I think this is what causes the noise. You could try the steel wool first, then move to adding a washer under the caliper to move it up a bit on the rotor.



louisssss said:


> if only i knew what you were talking about "riding low in the rotor", lol
> 
> anyway, it looks like you're saying i SHOULDN'T put those 6mm washers in... right?


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

i see, so the "fins" is the middle part of the rotor, where the slots are. i see that they are worn more

so u think moving the caliper upwards toward the outer portion of the rotor will stop the vibration? i will take your suggestions and try this w/ the steel wool rub-down of the rotor, but why do u think this works?


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

the only 100% surefire way to get rid of it that i have found is to call up sram and get them replaced with the G3s

they will let you ride your G2s until you get your G3s... I <3 SRAM!!!


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## SHICKS (Jun 3, 2009)

So, SRAM is offering replacement rotors?



AlexJK said:


> the only 100% surefire way to get rid of it that i have found is to call up sram and get them replaced with the G3s
> 
> they will let you ride your G2s until you get your G3s... I <3 SRAM!!!


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

AlexJK said:


> the only 100% surefire way to get rid of it that i have found is to call up sram and get them replaced with the G3s
> 
> they will let you ride your G2s until you get your G3s... I <3 SRAM!!!


does anyone have the contact email for SRAM?


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## AlexJK (May 2, 2009)

Yes, they will send new rotors and organic pads free of charge.

no e-mail on the SRAM website, but their phone number is: 1-312-664-8800

they will tell you to go through your LBS though


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

louisssss said:


> does anyone have the contact email for SRAM?


It has been posted in this thread. :cornut:


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## Jeepnut22 (Jul 16, 2008)

Dang... Wish I had followed up on this thread. I got rid of my rear brake problems by snagging a Galfer rotor and going with EBC Organic Pads...

Perfect now, but that was $$ maybe I didn't have to spend.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Jeepnut22 said:


> Dang... Wish I had followed up on this thread. I got rid of my rear brake problems by snagging a Galfer rotor and going with EBC Organic Pads...
> 
> Perfect now, but that was $$ maybe I didn't have to spend.


Galfer rotors are awesome!!! you didnt waste money. If you ever sell the bike swap the Galfer for the stocker so you have a good rotor for the next bike. :thumbsup:


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## kmorast (Jul 20, 2009)

I finally solved the Turkey Warble noise my brakes made. I found that if you remove both the rotor and caliper any noise you had is gone. Your bike is also much faster on the down hill sections of the trail. Absolutely love this set-up. It also gets a lot of looks from my friends.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

AlexJK said:


> the only 100% surefire way to get rid of it that i have found is to call up sram and get them replaced with the G3s
> 
> they will let you ride your G2s until you get your G3s... I <3 SRAM!!!


Hehe...I got just as much unwanted noise/vib from g3's as I did g2's and g1's.

I got Hayes rotors and so far, I'm happy. They're a tad thicker and less resonant.


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## BLOWNDFIZ (Sep 1, 2009)

BLOWNDFIZ said:


> You can definitely feel a difference between each side of the rotors. If you run your fingers across the slots of the rotors on the outside of the rotor then run your fingers the same way across the inside you can tell that the outside has a more 90 degree like cut (sharper) whereas the inside on the edges of the slots has a more rounded off feel.
> 
> I am going to take some emory cloth and lightly sand the squared edges off of the entire rotor. It will take some time, however I do actually feel this just might eliminate the vibration from coming back.


Well my results are not exactly what I hoped for, but I can definitely tell a difference. I used my dremel and removed the sharp edge from the trailing edges of the rotor vents and placed another washer under the caliper under all of the factory CPS washers to raise the caliper slightly. I can still get a slight pulsing when using the rear brakes hard. I'm going to attempt to bevel all the edges of the rotor in the near future.

I'm also going to stop by a tire dealer and get a stick on wheel weight to apply to the caliper body and check if that helps.

I'm thinking that swapping out to a thicker rotor might help the problem. If not some XT's are in my future...


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

BLOWNDFIZ said:


> If not some XT's are in my future...


I'm running XTs, and am really pleased with them. They perform great, and setup is a breeze. The stock Shimano rotors appear to have tighter tolerances than the Avid rotors I've used (Roundagon, G3), and bed in pretty quickly with the stock resin pads.


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## neex (Mar 30, 2005)

simon wilkins said:


> HI THAT IS EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEM I HAVE THAT THE CASETTE SEMS TO WOBBLE AND THE DISC SEEMS WARPED WHEN THE REAR WHEEL IS TURNING AND I GET A HOISE COMING FROM THE BACK NOW AND AGAIN IT IS SO ANOYING WHEN OTHER PEOPLE ARE ON ARGOS BIKES AND MY CANNONDALE IS SINGING AWAY!!! FROM THE REAR BRAKE.HAVE YOU FOUND A SOLUTION TO THIS YET IF SO LET US KNOW MY BIKE IS ONLY 4 MONTHS OLD THANKS


Are you getting harmonics due to a loose hub? Does your hub take cones/nuts? I would start by eliminating the hub movement. It shouldn't move much at all. You might also be getting harmonics in your QR? Try another one (even a heavy one from an old junker just to see).

These problems are almost always alignment or harmonics due to something loose or being loaded (i.e. some asymetrical stays tend to load on one side unequally and cause harmonics in certain braking systems if the brakes are too powerful).

Good luck and please let us know. I would try a dab of a high quality anti sqeal on the back of the pad (not the grease anti squeal but the rubber one that hardens). I will try this the next time any of my bikes give me 'gobble grief' and see what happens. Try to think about what might be loose first...

Good luck,
A.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Pedalphile said:


> The turkeys just started on the front of my bike, so I beveled the edges of the vents on the outboard side of the front rotor, and without making any other changes at all, the turkeys are gone. I know full well not to declare victory yet as sometimes it takes the turkeys awhile to reappear after making a change. This is a good sign however, and I'll repeat the important part: I beveled the edges of the rotor vents and made *no* other changes, and this restored smooth, quiet braking.
> 
> -Pete


Guys, I've ridden hundreds of miles in all conditions: hot, cold, wet, muddy, frozen, wet and frozen. The turkeys have not returned.

100s of turkey-free miles after beveling the sharp edges of the rotor vents.

Other remedies may make the noise and nasty vibration go away, but this is how to address the root cause. :thumbsup:

-Pete


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## bryant_andy (Feb 15, 2010)

*My Turkeys have gone*

I have read all of this thread and I came to the conclusion that it seemed to be Avid sintered pads that were causing most of the problems so I bought some Superstar Kevlar pads and tried these.

They were much much better and the turkeys were only present when the disc was cold on the front and the rear was turkey free.

So my mate I was cycling with suggested that I remove the 180 disc and refit the orginal 160 disc. This I did and the turkeys disappeared front & rear :thumbsup: I may get the odd squeak, but only when the going gets very wet, muddy or both.

All the above was on my 2008 Spez Rockhopper disc fitted with Juicy SL 3 brakes.

I also have a 2007 Spez FSR fitted with Juicy 3 brakes. I am going to remove the 180 and fit a 160 disc as that has also been nosiy from day one when used with sintered pads.

Thanks for all the info.

Andy


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

bryant_andy said:


> I have read all of this thread Andy


You read 554 post :eekster: you have wayyyy to much time on your hands. :crazy:


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## bryant_andy (Feb 15, 2010)

dogonfr said:


> You read 554 post :eekster: you have wayyyy to much time on your hands. :crazy:


I did take a while :yawn:

But was worth it to be able to say goodbye to the Turkeys :thumbsup:


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## bryant_andy (Feb 15, 2010)

bryant_andy said:


> I have read all of this thread and I came to the conclusion that it seemed to be Avid sintered pads that were causing most of the problems so I bought some Superstar Kevlar pads and tried these.
> 
> They were much much better and the turkeys were only present when the disc was cold on the front and the rear was turkey free.
> 
> ...


As my Mavic Cross Rides are centre lock with 6 bolt adapters I thought that dedicated centre lock discs would work well so I bought a pair of Shimano 160mm Deore centre locks as these are better and thicker discs than the Avids and do not require the adapters. I took these out on my normal very muddy & wet loop and they were totaly silent 

I have now fitted the Avid 160mm disc to my FSR and as that is my summer bike it uses Resin pads and so that should also be silent.

Will sell the Avid G2 185mm brakes with IS to Post mount adapters on eBay shortly.


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## Jeepnut22 (Jul 16, 2008)

Turkey Warble returned, mushy lever feel, crappy performance... Nothing seems to work for more than 3 or 4 rides. Hell, my Single Digit 7 V-Brakes on my SS work far better at this point...

Going with Saints and the 7s are getting jettisoned. Only bummer is that Straightline doesn't make Shimano levers anymore post '08. 


EDIT: From Straightline - " Nah the XT will come this fall we just did the Elixirs... " The response from Straightline from an email question I sent today.


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## mtn417 (Mar 31, 2009)

So I am confused. Does this boil down to being a brake issue? How come people are getting "Free" new frames if it seems to be an Avid/Sram problem? I recently bought a brand new 2008 stumpy 29er, road fine for first several rights. Now the rear is howling like a wolf on a full moon, I have juicy 5s, I don't here many people having those, is my problem pretty much the same as everyone elses? Shall attempt to solve with steel wool and 6mm washers as suggested.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

mtn417 said:


> So I am confused. Does this boil down to being a brake issue? How come people are getting "Free" new frames if it seems to be an Avid/Sram problem? I recently bought a brand new 2008 stumpy 29er, road fine for first several rights. Now the rear is howling like a wolf on a full moon, I have juicy 5s, I don't here many people having those, is my problem pretty much the same as everyone elses? Shall attempt to solve with steel wool and 6mm washers as suggested.


This is the low/zero-cost solution that addresses the root of the problem.

If the pads don't experience the same amount of force at the same time, you're going to get nasty vibration as the uneven forces attempt to twist the caliper. Holding a pair of spare pads with my fingers against an Avid rotor, it was very clear that one side was experiencing more force on one side of the rotor each time the pad passed over a vent. Once the sharp edges were gone, the forces were equal on each pad, and the turkeys banished to the land of wind and ghosts (Mr. Sparkle reference). I have over 500 dirt miles in all types of conditions on the bike since filing the sharp edges on my rotors, and the turkeys have not returned.

Please note that I was able to file the edges of the rotor vents with the rotors on the bike and calipers/pads installed, so I'm 100% certain no other changes were made to my brake system to make the turkeys head for the table.

I'm running the stock Avid pads that came with my brakes, which are Juicy Ultimates.

-Pete


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## mtn417 (Mar 31, 2009)

Pedalphile said:


> . Holding a pair of spare pads with my fingers against an Avid rotor, it was very clear that one side was experiencing more force on one side of the rotor each time the pad passed over a vent. Once the sharp edges were gone, the forces were equal on each pad,
> 
> -Pete




thanks for the info... 
So let me see if this is correct. Because on the rotor, there are some sharp edges sticking out preventing the pad making complete contact with the rotor on that particular side. Pad not contacting on one side but contacting properly on other causes noise? So I smooth out the rotor and the noise is gone? How do you mean file it.. could you please describe, is that with the steel wool or a file? It seems like plenty of people have replaced their rotors only to still experience the noise, if this was the case early on wouldn't anyone who replaced there rotor been like, yeah, just buy a new one, its quite, assuming the new one does not have these sharp edges...


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

mtn417 said:


> thanks for the info...
> So let me see if this is correct. Because on the rotor, there are some sharp edges sticking out preventing the pad making complete contact with the rotor on that particular side. Pad not contacting on one side but contacting properly on other causes noise? So I smooth out the rotor and the noise is gone? How do you mean file it.. could you please describe, is that with the steel wool or a file? It seems like plenty of people have replaced their rotors only to still experience the noise, if this was the case early on wouldn't anyone who replaced there rotor been like, yeah, just buy a new one, its quite, assuming the new one does not have these sharp edges...


The sharp edges are different than what you're picturing. They don't stick up/out, and both pads make proper contact.

The problem is the forces acting on the pads are different between the two pads and at the frequency of the vents passing the pads. If some of the frequencies within the range the pads see during a ride send a portion of the bike into resonance, the vibration will amplify info shaking. Because there are so many combinations of bike frames/components out there, it's a real crapshoot as to what setup might be prone to experiencing this wonderful resonance we all know as the turkey warble, but this does explain why some are having luck adding mass to their calipers - they're changing the resonant characteristics of a portion of the bike and preventing it from going into resonance.

The vents in the rotors are manufactured by stamping. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be stamped perfectly perpendicular to the rotor, thus one side of the vents has a slightly sharper edge facing the pad than the other side. You can easily feel this using your fingers, your fingernail, or, as I described above, a pair of pads. I haven't inspected any brands other than Avid for this, so I can't comment on people's results with other rotors - I'll have to check out some other rotors on my next group ride.

To file the sharper of the two edges, you need a fairly narrow flat metal file that will fit thru the vents - you can get one relatively cheaply at just about any place that sells hardware/tools. You'll want to take off the minimum amount of material to get the two sides of the rotor feeling equally sharp. Make sure you haven't created any sharp edges in the process. Be sure to give the rotor a cleaning when you're done.

-Pete


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## BLOWNDFIZ (Sep 1, 2009)

Mine are fixed! Finally.

I had Juicy 3's that vibrated the entire bike (all came from the rear). I didn't add weight to the caliper but I did take off the rotors and file down the edges on the bottom side of the Avid rotors. To clarify by bottom side I mean when manufacturing the stamped bottom side which is actually the outside edge when installed on the bike. I hope that makes sense.

In my mind this helped. It seemed that the turkeys were mostly gone except when pushed really hard I could sense them coming back so I think I backed off the rear brake for my own confidence. The vibration really messes with you on sketchy trails. So bottom line the filing helped but didn't fix completely.

Last week I installed a set of SLX brakes and everything has been perfect since. I am going to install the Juicy's on a DB Sortie frame I just picked up just to see if the bike makes any difference. I'll let you all know.


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## dhambrick (Mar 30, 2010)

johnniewalker85 said:


> My Juicy 3s are about as noisy or maybe more noisy than the ones in the video. Still haven't figured out a fix. I might try to ride them and see if the break in.


My Juicy 3s can get a little louder than that with some warble and shudder (feels like the back wheel is momentarily locking). This is usually when I am breaking hard after riding for a little while. The video did give me some confidence. If he can ride that down hill with a little noise then I should be all right for now.


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## chelboed (Jul 29, 2005)

Mine are noisier at moderate to low speeds. When I'm slowing down from "movin-right-along"...they tend to be okay. When I'm just tooling about...dabbing my brakes here and there...they get a tad on the noisy side.


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## sladams1 (Apr 13, 2010)

Called SRAM for my Elixir CR's, they said take to LBS, and they will warranty replace both the pads (with organics/alu backs) and SOLID rotors (???) to replace my G3's. My guess is both the aluminum back and the solid rotors will dramatically change the resonance frequency of my specific combination (Sette Razzo Aluminum Frame). SRAM was very clear that is definitely a resonance problem based on a combination of issues including frame material, geometry, brake mounts, pads, rotors. I went out and walked my bike in a wheelie, applying down pressure and the rear brake and it was VERY CLEAR that the sound was actually coming from the frame, not the brakes itself.

SO, for those not reading this whole thread, if in warranty, take to LBS and have them call SRAM and get replacement parts. If out of warranty, try , CHEAP = 2 6mm washers to raise the brake body, fine steel wool on the rotors, then if no better, FREE (but time consuming) = file the OUTSIDE edges of the vents so they are smooth like the inside,or $$$'s = New Pads and/or Rotors... Read up the thread for more details...


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm woefully late to this thread...but I have Elixirs...and I had severe turkey howling when the bike was new. Here was my solution:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=558164

Basically, I just wrapped a chainstay with an old tube to dampen the vibrations-presto, no more howling!

Cheap and easy.

Scott


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I had judder and squealing problems on two bikes I maintain with Juicy 3's. I sanded the pads, coated the back with disc quite, and still they would squeal. Got tired of opening them up, so one day I just blasted them with Brake Kleen. They don't make any noise anymore. I suspect that if they do start making noise again, I'll just blast them again. Take care not to get fluid on the hubs.


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## dewalttx (Jul 12, 2004)

*Easy fix for the vibration of Avid brakes*




johnniewalker85 said:


> I figured since this problem is so widespread it deserved its own thread. So if anyone has this problem post up here. Hopefully we can find a real cause/solution to this problem.
> 
> So here's the info we have on the problem:
> 
> ...


I found an easy fix for the vibration problem with Avid brakes. I have a 2008 Stumpjumper FSR with Avid Juicy 7 Ultimate. After a few hundred miles, I noticed the vibration/howling when applying the brake hard. I have done many things with no solution to the problem. I understand that Avid will send new rotors and pads if you you bring your bike to your local LBS. Well, that's a hassle.

Someone mentioned that they wrapped an old tube around the chainstay.....I decided to try that, but on the "seatstay" instead. I can see that this flex when I stand in front of the bike, apply the brake and push back hard. Amazing that the metal is so thin on the frame!

I wrapped the "seatstay" with 3/4 length of an old road tube. Tested it and it worked fine. Took the tube off, tested it and it howled! Put the tube back on, tested, and it's fine! You can feel it wanted to vibtate, but it doesn't, thanks to the tube.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Lots of information in this thread and I thought I would add in my .02 regarding the warble on BB7's, because it can and does happen. I ran a set of BB7's on several different frames over the course of 3 years. The first was fitted to a ti monstercross frame with Paragon sliders. Absolutely flawless with no noise. Later I mounted the same brakes and rotors to a Vassago Bandersnatch frame. I got the crazy turkey warble from the rear. I found that the caliper mount alignment was the issue and that when tightening the caliper bolts it was falling into a slightly canted angle. By slowly and carefully re-anglingling and tightening the CPS bolts I was able to resolve the alignment problem and the warble went away. This really had nothing to do with the alignment regarding the distance\centering of the pads, but had everything to do with the angle of the pad against the rotor. I think a similar situation could result from a stuck piston allowing the rotor to be angled under pressure. 

My last frameset was a Fargo using the same brakes. Post mount front and rear. I was cautious on the install to ensure the calipers were aligned perpendicular to the rotor and that the pad surfaces were absolutely parallel to the rotor. No problems and very quiet.

I think that a variety of problems can cause disc brake noise(as you can find in this thread), but I agree with the assessment of some folks that caliper alignment (not just centering) is a big root-cause contributor to many of the problems.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm so glad this thread is here! I've been fighting with this issue with Code 5s on my 7point all summer long. Guess I'll see if Avid will send me organic pads and new rotors.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

ryguy79 said:


> I'm so glad this thread is here! I've been fighting with this issue with Code 5s on my 7point all summer long. Guess I'll see if Avid will send me organic pads and new rotors.


Beware that organic pads are no magic fix. I was turkey-free on Avid's semi-metallic pads for over 1k miles. As soon as I replaced the pads with Avid's organic (w/alloy backplate), the turkeys have returned, although not in full force. I believe it is because the organic compound is softer and therefore is more easily affected by the rotor vents. They are a bit grippier than the sm pads, but not enough to justify the turkeys.

I'll report back when I get around to replacing the organics with more sm pads.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

i really just was referring to trying to get free stuff.


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## christopher032 (Sep 2, 2010)

Here's my dime for anyone who cares: I bought a new Cannondale 29er SS with 185/160 Juicy 3's last weekend and got the gobbles from the rear on my very first ride. I had no success with cleaning, sanding, adjusting, and all the other usual stuff, so I finally replaced my G2CS rotor with one I had laying around from an old set of Hayes mechanical DBs. Instantly fixed the problem. I now have quiet, smooth, and well-modulated braking.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

How long have you been riding with the different rotor? I've put my turkeys into remission numerous times only to have them return a week or two later.


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## christopher032 (Sep 2, 2010)

A little over a week now with 5 rides. Not long, but with the g2 rotor, it never took more than a half a mile or so for the turkeys to return, so I'm happy so far.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

I think I'm going to give this stuff: http://www.swissstop.ch/SwissStopSilencer.aspx a try as I have tried everything and my Juicy 5's still make a din.

Has anyone else used it?


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

yetibetty said:


> I think I'm going to give this stuff: http://www.swissstop.ch/SwissStopSilencer.aspx a try as I have tried everything and my Juicy 5's still make a din.
> 
> Has anyone else used it?


It's called Anti-Squeal in the moto industry, yes it will stop the pad from fluttering but no guarantee on other bits N parts continuing the concert. :thumbsup:


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

yetibetty said:


> I think I'm going to give this stuff: http://www.swissstop.ch/SwissStopSilencer.aspx a try as I have tried everything and my Juicy 5's still make a din.
> 
> Has anyone else used it?


Yes, I have a small can in the closet. It didn't help that much. It's a greyish powder, very sticky, that tends to wear out every time you apply the brakes. However, it's supposed to leave a residue that "heals" any disease your brake had.

The first time I used it, the brakes suddenly had zero stopping power. Nada. Niente. Thanks God I was just riding around the neighbourhood. Now the stuff is gone, my rotors are definitely darker (will post a picture if you ask for) and surprisingly, yes, my brakes are quieter. A little quieter.

But I must say my brakes are very, very quiet. After a swingarm replacement (seems the original one was defective) and a change from Juicy 7's to Elixirs.

This was taken from an automobile forum:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19107


> Not if they're drilled or slatted.
> 
> Drilled or slatted rotor will induce a lot more vibration into the caliper. No amount of anti-squeal will quiet those brakes. Live with the squeals...You should see the looks I get when I pull up to a stop. Brembo drilled rotors coupled with racing pads makes like I'm driving a FedEx delivery truck.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Anti squeal compounds go between the backing plate and caliper piston.


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## IndigoBlue (Mar 26, 2008)

dogonfr said:


> Anti squeal compounds go between the backing plate and caliper piston.


Sure, but if you don't use it properly (as I did not), a certain amount of the product will end up all over the brakes (caliper, pads, rotors), rendering them inoperative for some time.

So, given the negligible results, it's better to stay away from it unless your actual problem calls for it.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

dogonfr said:


> Anti squeal compounds go between the backing plate and caliper piston.


Not the swiss stuff quoted above. The directions say apply it to the friction surface. Weird


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

car_nut said:


> Not the swiss stuff quoted above. The directions say apply it to the friction surface. Weird


If the instructions say to put their magic fairy dust on the friction surface it stays on the shelf for a real sucker to contaminate their brakes. :thumbsup:


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## ultraviolet (Feb 11, 2008)

i don't have juicys on my bikes, but, i did get the turkey warble/vibration on other brakes, i found that the vidration was coursed by flex in the frame/fork. differant rotors will only help if there is less pad contact with the rotor so the power is less grabby


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## HiFiPilot456 (Feb 27, 2010)

I have a HiFi Deluxe 2010. From the start I got a knocking noise from the front brake. Very regular like it was hitting something on the rotor each time it moved around. 

This has gone away during the hot summer but on a cooler morning it came back. I also get the metal squealing or turkey sound from front and back. It is not regular just from time to time. 

Local shop is working sram to change out the rotors. Has anyone else had issues with the 2010 Deluxe?


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

Taking mine in today for the "upgraded pads/rotor replacement" per SRAM. I think the TSB has been shown on one of the forums. Will see what happens. Next step for me will be non-Avid rotors.


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## leggatt (Oct 8, 2005)

I have had Elixer's for almost two years with no noise. But recently switched frames to a Blur LT2 and got a bit of howling from the back 160mm rotor. 

Switched to Alligator Windcutters on the front and rear and no more noise. 

Seems to me it is more of a rotor issue than anything else.


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## ultraviolet (Feb 11, 2008)

leggatt said:


> I have had Elixer's for almost two years with no noise. But recently switched frames to a Blur LT2 and got a bit of howling from the back 160mm rotor.
> 
> Switched to Alligator Windcutters on the front and rear and no more noise.
> 
> Seems to me it is more of a rotor issue than anything else.


the howling you where getting was from the frame flexing forward and back very slittly when the brake was pulled, less braking surface on the alligator rotors mean less frame flex when the brake is pulled = no noise


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## leggatt (Oct 8, 2005)

ultraviolet said:


> the howling you where getting was from the frame flexing forward and back very slittly when the brake was pulled, less braking surface on the alligator rotors mean less frame flex when the brake is pulled = no noise


Uhhh, I can still stop over the same distance. It is probably a different amount of mass in the bike has changed the resonance of the whole combination. Kind of like the guy who wrapped his seat stay with a tube....


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hi I am the owner of Squeal Out Disc Brake Treatment a new product now on the market and in participating bike shops. I'm offering free samples of Squeal Out to anyone in this forum to help with this annoying pesky problem . 

I have a 99% fix rate so far for the last 3 years in my bike shop here in AZ with curing disc brake squeal . I have also had success with chattering and humming brakes too. I have had allot of problems with Hayes Brakes chattering more so than others and Squeal Out Paste has cured it many times with lasting results . 

And no I'm not trying to spam this forum !!!!! I'm offering to help my fellow riders FREE ! to rid your bikes of the Turkeys that are stalking you LOL. Hear is to a peace full quiet ride for all .


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## stefanb (Sep 22, 2007)

Ok Marc, I'm interested.

How do I get to try?


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

The biggest fault of Avid's brake system, is the concave CPS washers. With them - your disc tabs will never be "faced" properly...hence the persistent noise. Once I realized this - I eBayed them off....


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Zachariah said:


> The biggest fault of Avid's brake system, is the concave CPS washers. With them - your disc tabs will never be "faced" properly...hence the persistent noise. Once I realized this - I eBayed them off....


Actually, the CPS system *allows* for correct alignment even if your disc tabs are not faced properly.


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

stefanb just give me your address and I ll send you a sample Free ! also here is a hot link to a video of it being demonstrated .


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## bstyle74 (May 8, 2005)

Serious vibration going on here with rear Elixir/185 G3CS/RFX combo. These Elixirs were originally used on my old Heckler with no problems. As others already said, there is "typical" noise/squeal which is usually alignment problem, and then there is horrid "hrrrrmmm" with vibrations that go through legs and arms. I can replicate it if I am out of saddle, weight slightly forward, and use my rear brake.

With no effect, so far I've replaced with new pads, re-bedded, sanded/cleaned rotor, wrapped chain and seat stay, and made sure caliper is aligned.

Will try to use a spare set of the CPS hardware, but otherwise I'm buying the windcutters.


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## bstyle74 (May 8, 2005)

Put on an old G2CS rotor that I had from Juicy7 and just putting around neighborhood the noise is gone. No other adjustment to the caliper was made, just swapped out G3 with G2.


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## mlepito (May 1, 2007)

I called avid about this and they sent me new pads and new rotors. But after reading all this I just bought XT's and was done with it. rotors and pads are still in the packaging.


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

Picked mine up from LBS after SRAM sent in replacement pads/rotors. The rotors are G2CS and pads appear to be organic. Bedded them in last night (Up and down hill in neighborhood, no full stop as recommended in forum). A little drag on the front. Will have ride this weekend and see what happens. 

On a plus note, my 10 yr old son has gotten into mt biking now and has gone with me on a few rides. He wants to go tomorrow. Kind of cool. . . .


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## ultraviolet (Feb 11, 2008)

bstyle74 said:


> Serious vibration going on here with rear Elixir/185 G3CS/RFX combo. These Elixirs were originally used on my old Heckler with no problems. As others already said, there is "typical" noise/squeal which is usually alignment problem, and then there is horrid "hrrrrmmm" with vibrations that go through legs and arms. I can replicate it if I am out of saddle, weight slightly forward, and use my rear brake.
> 
> With no effect, so far I've replaced with new pads, re-bedded, sanded/cleaned rotor, wrapped chain and seat stay, and made sure caliper is aligned.
> 
> Will try to use a spare set of the CPS hardware, but otherwise I'm buying the windcutters.


i used to get this too, just try a 160 rotor, i bet that will work fine, did for me


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Give me your addresses and I'll send you a sample FREE ! Just want to help rid you all of the Turkeys that stalk you LOL .


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

I had Elixir CRs installed on my bike for a few months and never had any problems with the turkey warble until I rode in rain. Now I cannot get rid of it! I just installed new organic pad, same problem. I think I am going to the LBS to have them fix it.


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

Had my pads/rotors changed per the AVID TSB. They just repace the rotors with G2CS and pads appears to be organic (they are black). Gobble back in rear brake after 2nd ride; front is okay (I had it in both originally). 

Will readjust brakes and see how it goes. I am considering a different rotor, as some have said this makes a difference. A bit frustrating, but a work in progress.


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## ultraviolet (Feb 11, 2008)

Recbike said:


> Had my pads/rotors changed per the AVID TSB. They just repace the rotors with G2CS and pads appears to be organic (they are black). Gobble back in rear brake after 2nd ride; front is okay (I had it in both originally).


what size is your rear rotor?


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

ultraviolet said:


> what size is your rear rotor?


160mm. Front is 185.


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## Borgschulze (Nov 5, 2007)

Filing my pads edges down on a 45 degree angle worked like a charm.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

Borgschulze said:


> Filing my pads edges down on a 45 degree angle worked like a charm.


How did you manage to do that without realigning the caliper?

Obviously a rhetorical question, my point being that caliper alignment can greatly affect this problem. Please do report back after 100 or more miles to let us know if this turns out to be a long-term solution. It's not at all uncommon for people to temporarily get rid of the turkeys and have them return. I hope that's not the case here, but let us know.

-Pete


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree. New pads and rotors "cured" my problem for one ride!


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

My LBS sanded down the rotor using a cross hatch type pattern of that makes sense. It seemed to have gone away for now. I'm not sure how long it will last.I love these brakes minus the noise. 

Is the only way to get rid of the noise to buy new brakes?


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

tracerprix said:


> Is the only way to get rid of the noise to buy new brakes?


No - check for some of my posts earlier in this thread.

Filing down the 'sharper' edges (outboard side) of the stamped rotor vents got rid of the noise and vibration for me, and worked for over 1k miles until I switched to organic pads...I have no noise with the organics, but I have some objectionable vibration. I just today picked up another set of semi-metallic pads and will report back my results after I've bed them in and run them 100 miles or more.

If you look at Universal Cycles' Avid Rotor page, you will see this text:

"G3 SolidSweep rotors are designed to help eliminate resonance/vibration in certain frame/wheel/brake configurations by removing cutouts in the rotor braking surface "

This leaves little doubt that the imperfectly stamped rotor vents are indeed the root cause of this problem. Why Avid keeps sending people organic pads instead of solid sweep rotors is beyond me, though.


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## Borgschulze (Nov 5, 2007)

Pedalphile said:


> How did you manage to do that without realigning the caliper?
> 
> Obviously a rhetorical question, my point being that caliper alignment can greatly affect this problem. Please do report back after 100 or more miles to let us know if this turns out to be a long-term solution. It's not at all uncommon for people to temporarily get rid of the turkeys and have them return. I hope that's not the case here, but let us know.
> 
> -Pete


You're kidding right? I don't get it.

I've done about 60km on it since, including a couple of mud puddles. Turkey gobbles only when wet.. but I've never heard of a disc brake that doesn't gobble in the wet.

Image below... brake pad.. red lines are the "file"

Rest the edge of the file on the backing of the pad, and file back and forth, creating a chamfer on the edge of the pad.


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

Pedalphile said:


> No - check for some of my posts earlier in this thread.
> 
> Filing down the 'sharper' edges (outboard side) of the stamped rotor vents got rid of the noise and vibration for me, and worked for over 1k miles until I switched to organic pads...I have no noise with the organics, but I have some objectionable vibration. I just today picked up another set of semi-metallic pads and will report back my results after I've bed them in and run them 100 miles or more.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response, I did read all th pages, but no solid fix I could find.

Solid sweep rotors, interesting. i wonder how these will do in wet and muddy conditions. The reasoning behind the cut out rotors is for weight savings? I might pick up a set to try. Yes i am too lazy to file the whole rotor.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

tracerprix said:


> Thanks for the response, I did read all th pages, but no solid fix I could find.
> 
> Solid sweep rotors, interesting. i wonder how these will do in wet and muddy conditions. The reasoning behind the cut out rotors is for weight savings? I might pick up a set to try. Yes i am too lazy to file the whole rotor.


I, too, wonder about how the Solid Sweeps perform in wet/mud. Can't be any worse than rim brakes! Worst case is if they don't grip in slick, you could drill them. Most automotive rotors are solid, although it's a bit easier to build up heat with a motor driven vehicle. Still, with the small diameter of bike rotors, I think they will perfrom nearly as well, if not just as well as the vented ones.


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

I went ahead and ordered a pair. There are not too many people selling these.


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Pedalphile said:


> I, too, wonder about how the Solid Sweeps perform in wet/mud. Can't be any worse than rim brakes! Worst case is if they don't grip in slick, you could drill them. Most automotive rotors are solid, although it's a bit easier to build up heat with a motor driven vehicle. Still, with the small diameter of bike rotors, I think they will perfrom nearly as well, if not just as well as the vented ones.


Guys, along with my love of mountain biking I have also been a dirt bike rider for years. Solid rotors "are" for muddy conditions. The help cut down on pad and rotor wear that you get with vented rotors. Check the description of this ad for a solid dirt bike rotor.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...lid-Disc-Rear-Rotor-2009-KTM-65-SX-Parts.aspx

Vented rotors have holes in them for one main reason "venting". This helps make sure the rotors don't overheat under heavy use. With auto and dirtbike applications this is pretty clear-cut, probably a lesser issue with MTB's. Keep in mind that if you do ride in mountainous terrain the solid rotor set-ups do not run as cool.


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I will try them out. I don't do crazy down hill. I commute to work more than anything. But I do run trails with mud. Maybe these will help me?


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## Recbike (Aug 25, 2010)

The TSB on the brakes replaces the metallic pads and G3cs rotor with metal backed organic pads and G2cs rotors. After two rides, and return of gobble in back I am going to try diff brand of rotors.


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## nm_gunslinger (Jul 28, 2008)

This thread is still alive? It seems to me over time I've heard some sort of noise coming from every brand and type of brake there is, even the famous turkey warble. My other favorite is the hound howl, though I've never gotten that one out of the 7's. Some rides my brakes are loud, others they are quite, but someone else's takes over the noisy reign. 

At this point I'm not convinced the 7's are any better or worse than others in terms of how much noise they make.


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

nm_gunslinger said:


> This thread is still alive? It seems to me over time I've heard some sort of noise coming from every brand and type of brake there is, even the famous turkey warble. My other favorite is the hound howl, though I've never gotten that one out of the 7's. Some rides my brakes are loud, others they are quite, but someone else's takes over the noisy reign.
> 
> At this point I'm not convinced the 7's are any better or worse than others in terms of how much noise they make.


It's really the vibration that's the big problem. I think the noise issue just confuses things because you get a lot of noise problems included in this thread, and you're right in that all brakes make noise at some point. If you felt this vibration, you would clearly understand the point of this thread. The vibration has won in my case. The only way i was able to get rid of the vibration was to use pads that had rather low stopping power. I just wasn't happy with that situation, so I'm back to the vibration.


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## seven1seven (Jul 2, 2010)

Pedalphile said:


> How did you manage to do that without realigning the caliper?
> 
> Obviously a rhetorical question, my point being that caliper alignment can greatly affect this problem. Please do report back after 100 or more miles to let us know if this turns out to be a long-term solution. It's not at all uncommon for people to temporarily get rid of the turkeys and have them return. I hope that's not the case here, but let us know.
> 
> -Pete


You don't have to really take much off. Doing this will not mess with the alignment. Just take a file and hit the edges on both sides. You just want the edge so it is not square or "sharp". My brakes started to squeal twice and this fixed it both times.

Oh and that anti-squeal paste in an earlier post seems like a complete waste. If you watch the video it says to apply it (which decreases braking power) so you have to remove it with IPA. What if you don't get it all off and are bombing down a hill and suddenly lose 50-80% of your braking power! No thanks.


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## christopher032 (Sep 2, 2010)

I put a hayes rotor on the rear of my C-dale 29er SS w/ juicy 3s and it fixed it for a while before the vibration returned, so I took it back to my LBS and they gave me a G3 solid sweep, didn't help, so they tried two other kinds of rotors and organic pads and all had gobbles during test rides in the parking lot. They eventually gave up and called cannondale and were authorized to replace the Juicys with a Shimano system. Hopefully the gobbles are now gone for good.

-- Edit: I guess I should remove this from the Avid thread, as my bike shop just called and the shimano brakes had the exact same problem. The Cannondale Rep is coming to inspect in person tomorrow. Hopefully they can figure this all out.


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

christopher032 said:


> I put a hayes rotor on the rear of my C-dale 29er SS w/ juicy 3s and it fixed it for a while before the vibration returned, so I took it back to my LBS and they gave me a G3 solid sweep, didn't help, so they tried two other kinds of rotors and organic pads and all had gobbles during test rides in the parking lot. They eventually gave up and called cannondale and were authorized to replace the Juicys with a Shimano system. Hopefully the gobbles are now gone for good.
> 
> -- Edit: I guess I should remove this from the Avid thread, as my bike shop just called and the shimano brakes had the exact same problem. The Cannondale Rep is coming to inspect in person tomorrow. Hopefully they can figure this all out.


I'm glad to see AVID's aren't the only ones with noise problems!:madman:


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## Yeti_575 (Sep 28, 2010)

*New to the Brake Vibration (Shimano)*

I just bought a 2010 Yeti 575 with the Enduro build a couple of months ago from my lbs. The Enduro build has solid parts all the way around except for the middle of the pack brakes. The brakes it came stock with are the Shimano 575 non-series hydraulic with 160mm rotors and semi-metallic pads.

I rode the bike for about couple of rides and made sure to properly bed in the pads. I then took it to one of the ski resorts with a budy. Thats when the vibration started. The vibration only occured in the rear and would start when I would barely apply the brake, but it would continue even when firm pressure was applied. Its almost like a harmonic vibration that is felt through the whole frame.

I tried recentering the caliper. Cleaned the rotor with alcohol. No improvement.

I decided to change rotors and in the process upgraded to 180mm rotors, front/back through the lbs where they bled the rear an additional time. At the same time, I tried a Shimano Deore resin pad in the rear. The vibration still continued during and after bed-in.

I was at my wits end :madman:

I then took it to the lbs where I got the bike where they dissasembled the whole rear triangle. Rotated the bearings and ensrued proper torques. They faced the brake tab on the frame, bled the brake one more time and sanded the pads and rotors for another bed-in. The vibration was better, but its still there!! I tensioned my spokes to see if that was the cause, but no improvement.

I am now taking the bike back for a 3rd time where they say they want to try a new product called SwissStop Brake Silencer. Anyone tried this?

Do you guys think that this problem in inherant in the rear triangle of the 575?

I think I may try chamfering the leading edge of the pads as some of you have posted if the spray(sceptical) does not work. I have even thought about asking for my money back all together. Yeti basically blew me off when I caled their customer service.

Thanks for any advice!


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## N10S (Sep 27, 2004)

Maybe a poll with a cross section of popular rigid, hardtail, and FS bikes by different manufacturers would help determine if this noise issue is\was more prevalent with certain frames and less with others? I am not saying its not a brake issue, but maybe something thats just more noticeable given certain frames. After reading through all of the posts in this lengthy thread I still went out and bought a set of Avid Ultimate Juicy brakes for my Air9 anyway. I have been happy with the performance so far, and after numerous rides mine is still quiet. I was pretty careful to make sure the calipers were well-centered and not angled but thats the extent of my prep when installing. When I bind down on the rear brake hard I can feel the pad lightly pulsing against the rotor cut-outs on the rear brake but no noise to speak of. Perhaps that same pulsing feeling would create a resonating noise in another frame though?


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

N10S said:


> Maybe a poll with a cross section of popular rigid, hardtail, and FS bikes by different manufacturers would help determine if this noise issue is\was more prevalent with certain frames and less with others? I am not saying its not a brake issue, but maybe something thats just more noticeable given certain frames. After reading through all of the posts in this lengthy thread I still went out and bought a set of Avid Ultimate Juicy brakes for my Air9 anyway. I have been happy with the performance so far, and after numerous rides mine is still quiet. I was pretty careful to make sure the calipers were well-centered and not angled but thats the extent of my prep when installing. When I bind down on the rear brake hard I can feel the pad lightly pulsing against the rotor cut-outs on the rear brake but no noise to speak of. Perhaps that same pulsing feeling would create a resonating noise in another frame though?


Yes, it is without doubt a resonance issue, and thus why it's very difficult to predict whether a particular setup will exhibit it or not. That is also why some have had luck fastening weights to their calipers or wrapping their seatstays with non-resonant materials; they're changing the resonsant frequency of the system.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Well I've been on several rides, and the noise has been fixed. BikesDirect sent me replacement Avid G2 cleansweep rotors and organic pads. After the initial installation and a couple rides, the noise came back. I noticed the rear disc (where the noise was coming from) had wear marks up the support arms of the disc. It wasn't much, but enough to cause a vibration and feeling of "crunchiness" that I encountered. So, I removed the washers/spacers and rearranged them so that the pads were centered on the discs and no longer hit the arms. I also sanded down the pads and chamfered the edges, front and rear, and reinstalled on the bike. 

So far, 6 rides and +/- 70 miles of riding and the noise has not come back. So be sure to check the arms of the rotor and make sure they are not being grabbed by the pads. I guess either the frame, disc, or brake mount was not manufactured correctly.


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## Tjay (Oct 17, 2006)

Borgschulze said:


> Image below... brake pad.. red lines are the "file"
> 
> Rest the edge of the file on the backing of the pad, and file back and forth, creating a chamfer on the edge of the pad.


Thank you for sharing this. After reading all the post here and other forums/reviews, this was the only one that caught my attention...

I did this mod on Thursday. Rode the bike on Friday about 20 miles on paved road and 18 miles offroad this morning with steep downhills and so far I'm happy to say that, I haven't heard the warble after doing this fix.

Thanks again!!


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## CarlS (Feb 25, 2008)

well I guess I will add myself to the list. just picked up a slightly used 2010 StumpJumper FSR Comp and it has squeel / squeek both with or without brakes applied. (intermittant) 

brakes: (copied and paste from specialized site) 
FRONT: Avid Elixir R SL, alloy backed semi-met pads, 200mm rotor
REAR: Avid Elixir R SL, alloy backed semi-met pads, 185mm rotor

I have only just been riding it a little over a week and it seems to be getting worse each time I'm on it. Hmmm.... I wonder if this is why he wanted to sell it :skep: 

The rear is the worst and seems to be the one that gets somekind of harmonic squeel going at times when the brakes are not applied at all. Tap the brakes and it stops. 

any helpful ideas are appreciated! I'm going to go after it this week and see what I can do.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

CarlS said:


> ...any helpful ideas are appreciated! ...


See the preceding 627 posts.


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## CarlS (Feb 25, 2008)

gmcttr said:


> See the preceding 627 posts.


I did! seems there are 627 different ideas. most of them are people just complaining (like me)


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hi I am the owner of Squeal Out Disc Brake Treatment a new product now on the market and in participating bike shops. I'm offering free samples of Squeal Out to anyone in this forum to help with this annoying pesky problem . 

I have a 99% fix rate so far for the last 3 years in my bike shop here in AZ with curing disc brake squeal . I have also had success with chattering and humming brakes too. I have had allot of problems with Hayes Brakes chattering more so than others and Squeal Out Paste has cured it many times with lasting results . 

And no I'm not trying to spam this forum !!! I'm offering to help my fellow riders FREE ! to rid your bikes of the Turkeys that are stalking you LOL. Hear is to a peace full quiet ride for all .


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## CarlS (Feb 25, 2008)

CarlS said:


> I did! seems there are 627 different ideas. most of them are people just complaining (like me)


Here is what I did today and has worked for 2 rides so far: I don't know if it is a long term fix or not.

1.removed rotor and used scotch brite disc in air powered die grinder to put very fine cross hatch pattern evenly around the rotor. removed any polished finish.

2. used a file to put a 45 degree cut on the leading and trailing edge of the pad (as recommended by borgschulze in this thread) also used fine grit sand paper and lightly sanded surface of pad.

3. used anti squeek spray (sticky stuff) applied to the back of the pads. This is an automotive application that helps eliminate high frequency vibrations in the pad.

4. cleaned and tightend everything.


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## dpk785 (Sep 18, 2010)

I just got a new bike with Juicy 3's on it and I'm having the same problem. Tried sanding the pads, chamfering the edges, scuffing/cleaning the rotors...nothing helped at all. I called Avid tech support and they weren't really helpful at all. They tried to tell me I didn't bed them in correctly, which I did. Then they told me to take it to a shop that's an avid dealer so they can check it out. All of the local shops around me suck, which is why I didn't buy the bike there in the first place. Why can't I just submit a damn warranty claim directly? It's clear that the brakes have issues. They also suggested trying the organic pads, which they didn't offer to provide. I'm about to just take these pieces of crap off and buy hayes or hope.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

Avid can't deal directly with the customer, only through a bike shop. It doesn't matter if you bought the bike there or not, just have them call Avid. They can even just hand over the new parts (if they send out new rotors/pads), and you can put them on.


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## IFrider1 (Jan 22, 2004)

I have a brand new set of X0's that had bad turkey wobble right out of the box. I put on a set of Avid 'metallic sintered' pads I had as replacements for theGF's XX and the noise is gone. Are the stock pads organic? The metallics seem like they'll squeall like crazy if wet so, maybe I'll put the originals back on for rainy races........


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## IFrider1 (Jan 22, 2004)

IFrider1 said:


> I have a brand new set of X0's that had bad turkey wobble right out of the box. I put on a set of Avid 'metallic sintered' pads I had as replacements for theGF's XX and the noise is gone. Are the stock pads organic? The metallics seem like they'll squeall like crazy if wet so, maybe I'll put the originals back on for rainy races........


Strike that. Noise is back and worse with the new pads. No wonder this thread is so long.........


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## dpk785 (Sep 18, 2010)

I tried putting some loctite disc brake quiet on the pad backing plates and it helped a lot. I still get the occasional squeal but for the most part it got rid of the crazy vibration. I still think there's an inherent problem with the system, but I haven't figured out yet exactly where the problem is. For now though this solution makes it a lot easier to live with.


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## Ulairi (Jan 13, 2010)

*Hope this helps*

I've recently bought a 2007 Trance 2 with Juicy 3s. No turkey warble, but I was getting a slow speed shudder on my front brake (160mm Clean Sweep G2 with the 'later' model of the G2 with the cutouts angled to the front at the inner edge - _the one on the right in the first photo in this thread_: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=627270&highlight=rotors).

The shudder was occuring just before complete stop. That made traversing technical stuff harder than it needed to be. Ironically, the Promax discs on my previous Walgoose gave better low speed modulation... I was also concerned that this shudder would deteriorate into a full-blown warble.

I've read this entire thread and many other pages elsewhere on the web. I'm posting what I found in the hope it helps others.

First, I temporarily improved my slow speed shudder using the advice in this mega-thread to file the slots in the rotor. After two short bed-in runs, the brake worked great with no shudder. However, it is gradually returning and I am now about to upgrade the front rotor to a 180 mm Clean Sweep G3 with organic pads.

In the interests of helping others here's what I found while researching this:

1. Avid/SRAM acknowledge the problem. These pages, from late 2009 /early 2010 offer some insight:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/02/15/sram-issues-technical-bulletin-regarding-elixir-disc-brake-issues/

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=6603129

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7175168

http://www.locomtb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2625​The Tech Bulletin cannot be easily found on-line, anywhere. That second link and third link above (via MTBR), are the only places that I could find the bulletin.

2. The info in the bulletin (and supported by what I've seen on the web) seems to suggest that the problem may be unique to a particular bike/brake combination. The problem can be occuring differently, or not at all, in seemingly identical bikes. The theory is that the vibration is a function of the mount alignment (_which vary, bike to bike, due to manufacturing tolerances_) and the resonance of the frame (_once again a function of manufacturing - e.g. different welds and subtley different lengths will produce a different resonant response in apparently identical structural members_).

The resonance theory is supported by fixes mentioned in this thread that changed the mass of the components (weights on the caliper) or the resonant response of structure (see, especially, post #475 on page 10 of this mega-thread).

The bulletin gives advice to:

a. check for smooth operation of the pistons,

b. Check (retorque) the torques of brakes mounts & frame pivots, and

c. Conduct a defined bed-in procedure (you would need to re-work/scuff the surfaces prior to bed-in).​This thread gives some good advice on bed-in (see posts #2 and #30):

http://www.dirtragmag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22443

Note that the bulletin does not go so far as to suggest switching to the Solid Sweep rotor and the organic pads (per the first link above), but this may be a last resort option.

I apologize if I am covering old ground for some and if I'm linking to threads/info that people have already seen. However, the info on this tech bulletin did not pop out at me as I searched this thread so I'm re-posting it in the spirit of helping out.


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## BLOWNDFIZ (Sep 1, 2009)

I've said it before in this thread if you want your avids fixed, replace them with Shimano's. Seriously, it ended up being a far better option for me to spend some money and replace my Juicy 3's with SLX's. I have not had a single noise, shudder, or vibration ever since.

J3's were stock on my Superlight, I spent hours aligning, sanding, taking the bike to the LBS, you name it and I tried it. I replaced the J3's and problems solved.

Now here it where things get funny. I bought a DB Sortie and put the J3's on it. They worked fine, so my thought was that it was the frame design of the Superlight that made the rear shutter so freaking bad. That very well could have been part of the problem. Pretty soon though the J3's began to leak for no apparent reason. I tried having the LBS work with Avid to fix my J3's and they were no help at all. I bought a set of Shimano (M486's I think from memory) and am using the J3's rotors and they are working flawlessly.

I also run a set of SLX's on my SC Bullit for Freeride/DH and love them. Not a peep, vibration, etc.


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## Tjay (Oct 17, 2006)

If you already have this avid brakes and want to save money by spending extra cash on a new kit/ upgrade parts/ etc... Shave off the sharp edge on that pad and also needle file the rotors. Make sure when the pad contacts with the rotor, they wont grab or catch from the sharp edge that is on the pad/rotor. This is what I found out (from this thread) and was able to get rid of my turkey noise, squeal and shuddering front brakes. I didn't spend a penny on this and took about 30 mins-45 mins to do front and rear.

Good luck folks!


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## drewp29 (Aug 20, 2010)

This post is purely a response to all the people that say, "in order to fix the problem, switch to BRAND XXXX (Shimano, etc.)". I have ridden with a variety of people with different brands of disc brakes and EVERY brand has squeal problems! Just because that particular brake set does not have the problem on your bike does not mean that it is the end all cure all problem fixer. That being said, there are quite a few good ideas for fixing the problem in this thread, but not everyone will be able to fix the issue with one or even all of these. My thoughts on fixing it are to try one idea at a time so you don't end up with the problem solved but no idea what exactly fixed it. I do agree that it may be a resonance issue inherent with the particular brand and the particular bike, in which case switching brands or rotors or etc. etc. might be the cure.

Currently I have Avid Elixir CRs on my bike and have not heard a peep out of them, but I only have about 30 miles on them too. If they start to howl I will take the different ideas and try to sort it out. Noise I can deal with, shuddering, depending on how bad, I cannot.

Alright, enough b*tching out of me, hopefully I won't have these issues. If it happens I will deal with it one step at a time.

Thanks for all the advice for my knowledge banks - I will file these away for when the need arises.


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## Mike Gager (Jul 30, 2010)

i have BB5 brakes and im experiencing what i would consider to be a turkey warble/vibration coming from the front. if i loosen the caliper and realign the brakes it goes away for a day or two then comes back, i guess im glad to see its not just my bike having this problem lol


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Tjay said:


> If you already have this avid brakes and want to save money by spending extra cash on a new kit/ upgrade parts/ etc... Shave off the sharp edge on that pad and also needle file the rotors.* Make sure when the pad contacts with the rotor, they wont grab or catch from the sharp edge that is on the pad/rotor.* This is what I found out (from this thread) and was able to get rid of my turkey noise, squeal and shuddering front brakes. I didn't spend a penny on this and took about 30 mins-45 mins to do front and rear.
> 
> Good luck folks!


I went through the same thing a couple weeks ago after buying a second set of wheels with (naturally...) a new pair of rotors. Very noisy right from the start. I beveled the edges on all the holes on the 'sharp' side of the rotors, and the noise is almost gone.

Almost gone. I guess I missed a spot somewhere. It's good enough, though.


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## Yeti_575 (Sep 28, 2010)

*Rear End Vibration Finally Eliminated!!*

My LBS set me up with a Magura solid rotor on my next visit after some testing around the shop with my bike and the current brake setup that consisted of the Shimano BR-575 Non-Series. I took the bike home and bedded in the resin pads to the rotor. So far, so good&#8230;. I then took over to a local trail and road to the top of the peak. On the downhill section of the trail the rear was perfectly quiet. I thought that was the trick. A slightly wider rotor without the cross-drilled surface was the key for my setup.

As I was pedaling along one of the flats and approached a sharp bend I ever so slightly feathered my rear break and I was startled by the vibration! It had returned after some heat and further bed in&#8230;.

I was super upset&#8230; I wrote a detailed letter to Yeti customer service. I included every set of variables that the LBS tried and it was lengthier than this post&#8230;. I received a call from Nate from yeti the very next morning. He was very understanding of my frustration and acknowledged that everything the LBS shop did was what he would have done at the shop he worked at prior to coming to Yeti. He mentioned that if the LBS had exhausted all of their ideas that they would replace the rear triangle at no cost, even know it was not likely to be the cause. I was very pleased with the quick response I received from yeti.
I went to my LBS that same morning and told them that the vibration was still present.

They said they would visit the Yeti factory since it was just down the street. They would request a new triangle and if that wasn't the problem they would put on a new brake caliper.

They replaced the rear triangle and the vibration was still there mid-way through the week. Later in the week they put on an XTR Caliper and said that that seemed to have been the culprit.

I have been on two very long rides in varying conditions, temps, and slopes and the vibration has disappeared with the XTR caliper!!


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## trailville (Jul 24, 2006)

*Here's why everything seems to work temporarily.*

Here's why everything seems to work temporarily.

After messing with my J5s on and off for the past 2 years I've had a lot of experience with the problem going away temporarily and then coming back. I'm speaking to the pronounced vibration problem (I think this thread is a mix of different problems). In my case, the worst of the problem is on the front and over the past 2 years I've had 4 different rotors of 2 different sizes, 4 different types of brake pads, 2 wheel sets, and 2 forks on that bike. I've also cleaned, sanded, and chamfered pads, and cleaned, filed, and sanded rotors.

The only thing that eliminated the vibration for more than a ride or two was using some alligator organic pads. That's because the alligator organic pads kind of suck. They have very little stopping power, and with less grab to the brake pads the vibration goes away. That is also why it also goes away temporarily with all these other experiments, because every time you change something you need to ride a while until the pads thoroughly bed in again. Until they bed in, they lack full stopping power, and without full stopping power, no vibration. Unfortunately, the alligator organics were just not good enough for me to run on the front (they're working fine on the rear though). So I'm convinced at this point the only solution for me will be to buy something else for the front at least.


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## stefanb (Sep 22, 2007)

Filing the edges and sanding them worked for me.

Stock Elixir pads too.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

New G2 Cleansweeps and Avid organic pads worked for me. I posted earlier after a couple rides and all seemed good at that point. Now, after another 8-10 rides it's still all good. Some people have said organic pads have less stopping power, but either I don't need all that power or those claims are just BS. Maybe I just don't use as much brake as some people, but it seems there is still plenty of power. Enough to send me over the bars anyway .


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## phred (Aug 25, 2007)

I have three hard tails with Avid brakes (Juicy 7's, BB7's and Elixer CR's). All had some kind of noise/vibration. The Hydros were the worst by far. I was able to quelch the vibration with the inner tube/seat stay wrap. I did not like that it seems to be a band-aid approach. I ended up going with 140mm rotors. I feel no more vibration and the noise is gone. While 140mm may seem like a small rotor, I am 200lbs and have no problem locking up the rear brake. So this work well for me.


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## bstyle74 (May 8, 2005)

ultraviolet said:


> i used to get this too, just try a 160 rotor, i bet that will work fine, did for me


I like having the larger 180 enough that I don't want to use 160 even if it is the only way to eliminate the vibrations. I did get the 180 windcutter, and this has reduced the vibrations. Not completely gone, but tolerable now.


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hi I am the owner of Squeal Out Disc Brake Treatment a new product now on the market and in participating bike shops. I'm offering free samples of Squeal Out to anyone in this forum to help with this annoying pesky problem .

I have a 99% fix rate so far for the last 3 years in my bike shop here in AZ with curing disc brake squeal . I have also had success with chattering and humming brakes too. I have had allot of problems with Hayes Brakes chattering more so than others and Squeal Out Paste has cured it many times with lasting results .

And no I'm not trying to spam this forum !!! I'm offering to help my fellow riders FREE ! to rid your bikes of the Turkeys that are stalking you LOL. Hear is to a peace full quiet ride for all .
__________________
Got disc brake squeal !
http://www.squealout.com


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## mefistofeles (Jun 1, 2009)

I have Code 5s' on my Giant XTC 29er and had some truly appaulling rotor squeal/vibration,especially the rear rotor. If I applied an significant input to brakes during high speed descents I would experience severe vibration,especially from the rear rotor.

In my opinion this vibration was a result of having a light and stiff frame in conjunction with a one piece rotor. I replaced the stock Avid rotors with Shimano's RT 76 floating/two piece rotors. I still have a some squeal in the back but the vibration issue has gone away completely even on high speed runs. 

Personally I think Avid's vibration issue is a result of cutting costs by using a one piece rotor design. But can you really blame Avid Shimano makes you buy your rotors separately and their brakes are still more expensive!


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## ultraviolet (Feb 11, 2008)

mefistofeles said:


> I have Code 5s' on my Giant XTC 29er and had some truly appaulling rotor squeal/vibration,especially the rear rotor. If I applied an significant input to brakes during high speed descents I would experience severe vibration,especially from the rear rotor.
> 
> In my opinion this vibration was a result of having a light and stiff frame in conjunction with a one piece rotor. I replaced the stock Avid rotors with Shimano's RT 76 floating/two piece rotors. I still have a some squeal in the back but the vibration issue has gone away completely even on high speed runs.
> 
> Personally I think Avid's vibration issue is a result of cutting costs by using a one piece rotor design. But can you really blame Avid Shimano makes you buy your rotors separately and their brakes are still more expensive!


your main problem is that you've got downhill brakes on a cross-country frame = flex = noise


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## mefistofeles (Jun 1, 2009)

_your main problem is that you've got downhill brakes on a cross-country frame = flew = noise_

The 29er was actually louder with the Juicy 3's that come stock with the bike. You could actually hear the brakes howling quite some distance away.

Although in retrospect I wonder if the vibration issues may have been more severe with the Code 5's,they have more power than the Juicy 3's.


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## kimi rossi (Jun 29, 2009)

hi! i posted this on the other thread. My 2008 juicys with original pads i was able to roast the turkey. I simply put washers underneath the calipers to lift it up a little. i found out that the turkey sound may be caused by the pads hitting the spokes of the rotors. the wear marks on the rotors goes past the disc contact area and a few millimeters into the spokes of the rotors. my turkey is completely gone now. all i get is a nice quiet brake when i'm descending.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Code 5's are supposed to have more power, but they really really really don't.

Dunno if I posted it in this thread already but...

SuperStar Kevlar Pads stopped the squeeling so far on my bike and a mates, work pretty well to but the initial bite is less than plain sintereds but less heat issues on long drags so it's all good.


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hi I am the owner of Squeal Out Disc Brake Treatment a new product now on the market and in participating bike shops. I'm offering free samples of Squeal Out to anyone in this forum to help with this annoying pesky problem . 

I have a 99% fix rate so far for the last 3 years in my bike shop here in AZ with curing disc brake squeal . I have also had success with chattering and humming brakes too. I have had allot of problems with Hayes Brakes chattering more so than others and Squeal Out Paste has cured it many times with lasting results . 

And no I'm not trying to spam this forum !!! I'm offering to help my fellow riders FREE ! to rid your bikes of the Turkeys that are stalking you LOL. Hear is to a peace full quiet ride for all .


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

i am skeptical, but heck, if its free, i'll give it a shot
do i just pm you my info?
i tried everything, filing the rotor, cleaning the rotor, beveling the pads, bedding the pads
squeal always comes back


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

I do understand Dan , believe me LOL. This problem has made me crazy many times in my bike shop to the point of obsession for a cure. Many people don't believe me when I tell them Squeal Out really works and I don't blame them . However if it didn't work then the largest wholesaler in the industry Quality Bicycle that tested it would not carry it. Let alone endorse it. The purchasing manager Tyler Dennison tested it him self on his own bike and other riders employed by the same Company, that's what made them buy from me. 

I have many testimonials on my website for all to see that it is no joke. I really feel for everyone in this giant thread and hope all of you give me the benefit of a doubt. Yes send me a PM and I will ship a sample for you tomorrow. Your open mind will treat you well . Have a great evening .


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

kimi rossi said:


> hi! i posted this on the other thread. My 2008 juicys with original pads i was able to roast the turkey. I simply put washers underneath the calipers to lift it up a little. i found out that the turkey sound may be caused by the pads hitting the spokes of the rotors. the wear marks on the rotors goes past the disc contact area and a few millimeters into the spokes of the rotors. my turkey is completely gone now. all i get is a nice quiet brake when i'm descending.


Exactly what i did. Never cured the problem 100% but almost there and a lot better.

David


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Just a heads up , Squeal Out no longer giving free samples . Our promotion is up. Happy Holiday's to all of you from all of us here at S/O


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## wolfet6000 (Jun 19, 2010)

Marc thanks for the sample. Applied it to my Elixer 5's and the squeal is gone.


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hey Wolfe , great to here and thanks so much for the reply . All I ask is to help me spread the word to everyone else you know that has Brake Squeal. Have a great merry x-mass


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Luke thank you for the comment you left for Squeal Out on You tube , so glad to here your brake squeal is gone Cheers and happy New Year to you !


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

wolfet6000 said:


> Marc thanks for the sample. Applied it to my Elixer 5's and the squeal is gone.


I've just finished my second ride after applying squealout on my SRAM/Avid XX's. Turkey gobbel is gone!

Thanks Marc.


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Hey that's great D Jack. Thanks so much for taking the time to write back in the forum I can't begin to tell you how much that means to me. I am so happy to here that your Squeal is gone ,,,,,, it's cool isnt it lol. Hey if you have a minute MTBR has a page for it now where you can give it a pepper rating I sure would appreciate one thanks again ! Marc

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/extras/pv-bikeworks/squeal-out/PRD_452924_117crx.aspx


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

I took Marc up on the offer back when he was giving out free samples of Squealout. It took me awhile to use the sample, and then I wanted to put a fair amount of miles on the bike before reporting back. 

I can say that I have had zero noise problems since applying the Squealout. If adjustments won't get your brakes quiet, this product may help.


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## voodoo5 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey - I read this thread a while ago and now i see that it's still active... so i thought i could share my solution to my juicy5 vibration problems. Note that i only had trouble with the rear wheel.

I used to roll on shimano hubs + mavic rims and had no brake problems apart from normal squealing. Then i switched to a complete mavic wheelset and the problems started. I guess the mavic hubs aren't dissipating the vibration as well the shimano and/or the wheel has a natural resonance with harmonic relation to that of the avid rotor.

Cleaning the rotor with isopropyl acohol would only resolve the issue temporarily. Threadlock didn't do anything. Adding washers to the mounting bolts partially solved the problem, but all it really did was change when the vibration would occur.

What did it for me: swapping the stock avid brake pads to jagwire redzone comp (low noise). Since the issue was only with the rear wheel, it didn't bother me one second to give up a little power over some low noise vibration-free braking.

HTH.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Switched out all my pads to SuperStar Kevlars, you lose a bit of bite, gain a bit of momentum and heat wise there better off, Life is down on SS Sintered to likely 1/2 but there cheap £6 a pop so not a real issue, not heard a peep out of them since.


That Redzone is most likely the same kinda stuff, softer pad basically.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Missed that Squealout stuff, I guess it's a cutting paste, you can get glass cutting paste fairly cheap which would likely do the same thing.


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## Jeepnut22 (Jul 16, 2008)

Best cure...

Ditch the Avids. Bumped to Saints and all problems are gone, for 12+ months. Next bike gets XTRs. Avoids are never going on my bikes again (except my V-Brakes).


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## Clunt (Oct 5, 2010)

*Disk brake hoobajoob.*

There are many reasons that any disk brake might squeal. The biggest culprit is the frame or fork mounting tabs. Post mount or I.S. tabs may not be machined to proper tolerances at the factory. This is the first interface to look at.

You may want to face the mounting surface. Just like with a head tube or bottom bracket, facing ensures that the mounting surfaces are parallel, allowing proper caliper alignment. This would explain why one set of brakes works quietly on one bike, but not on the other. Unless you have the money and know how to invest in a facing tool, let the pros take care of this. They'll replace a frame or fork they ******, but if you ****** it yourself, you gots ta pay for the replacement.

Pad contamination is the next thing to take a look at. If you have ever touched the rotor, your finger oils are now on the rotor. This can also happen when some jerky friend goes," Wow-wee! What's this?!" and palms the rotor. Clean the rotor with isopropyl alcohol before the pads contact the rotor again.

Pad contamination can also be caused by any aerosol lubricants and degreasers. Avoid getting these fluids on a disk brake rotor or pad. Once a set of pads is contaminated, they're toast. No amount of sanding on the pad surface will alleviate the problem. If it does, it's only temporary and will usually come back in full force.

If you don't bleed your hydraulic brake systems often, you're making a big mistake. No matter what fluid your brake uses, every one of them has a boiling point. Heating the fluid beyond this boiling point causes the fluid to deteriorate, introducing contaminates. Pushing the old fluid out and replacing it with fresh fluid as a regular maintenance program is essential. Every 3 months of riding is a good starting point. More frequent or less frequent riding will dictate a different schedule.

Sticky pistons will cause the caliper to not align properly or the pads to deflect the rotor, causing noise. Overhaul the caliper per the manufacturer's instructions or lubricate the piston with whatever fluid your brake system uses.

Sintered pads offer the most braking power and have a propensity for squealing. Organic pads offer the least amount of noise and power. If you've changed from a metallic compound to an organic one and the squealing goes away, kick ass. If the problem still exists, check out some of the other solutions listed above.

Almost all disk brake manufactures make a great product. The choice of which brand to use is up to personal preference. If one guy's Shimano's squealed when the Avid's didn't, well there's probably a rational explanation for this. Not just a manufacturer that makes the "perfect" brake. Let's use some science!

"Back off man, I'm a scientist" - Bill Murray "Ghostbusters"


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

*squeal out*

Hey Ped , glad to hear Squeal Out got rid of your squeaky brakes . Thanks so much for writing back in the forum to tell us about your results . Marc:thumbsup:


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## Marc Hanses (Jul 29, 2009)

Not sure what cutting paste is ? However there is a list of bike shops on our website that carry Squeal Out . Hope there is a bike shop near you that has it in stock . Sorry our free sample pro mo is over. I really works Turverd so far it has a 100% fix rate. Hope you try it and get to say goodbye to the Turkey  Take care Marc


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry to say that after my first long ride in dry conditions (no snow or ice), my front brake is starting to gobble again. I have treated them twice with Squealout, and had high hopes that it would be a permanent cure, but it doesn't seem to be the case.


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## lew242 (Aug 7, 2008)

I have Elixir 5's and I set them up 4 times and also visually checked pad alignment. Every time maybe not warbles, but vibration sometimes squeals other times like there was sand, grit stuck in there or pads were worn down to metal even though they were new.

A few ideas...

- Noticed that calipers were a little low and were contacting the arms, raised the calipers using washers, slight improvement (as previously mentioned).

- Many people suggest that poor frame tabs cause the vibrations/warbles and they need facing. But I thought about it. Is not that exactly the point of all those Avid (Tri-Align™ Caliper Positioning System™) washers? Why would this _still_ not help? Why do other manufacturer's systems without these still not suffer from these vibrations?

- Tried the rear brake on a different frame. A frame which has a much more vertical rear bolt pattern, lets say, on the first frame the caliper was about 30 degrees from horizontal, and the second frame the caliper is 50 degrees from horizontal. Vibrations and warbles completely gone. *Caliper is lower on rotor than before!* and rubs on arms by 2mm or so, yet still no vibration! To me this suggests *caliper angle* is a seriously important factor. Poor R&D not taking into account bike variations AVID?


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

lew242 said:


> To me this suggests *caliper angle* is a seriously important factor. Poor R&D not taking into account bike variations AVID?


Sorry, but that is not a valid conclusion based on your testing.

Different frames have different resonant characteristics. Many people have taken a warbling brakeset off one frame and had no issues on a different frame.

Caliper angle has nothing to do with this problem.

The problem is at the pad/rotor interface.


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## lew242 (Aug 7, 2008)

Pedalphile said:


> Caliper angle has nothing to do with this problem.
> 
> The problem is at the pad/rotor interface.


My theory is as good if not better than all the other amateur theories suggested here. How do you know that there wasn't a different steeper caliper angle on other frames that didn't cause vibrations when brakes were moved across onto new frames? How do you know this is absolutely not a reason why it has not been mentioned before so therefore not eliminated? Why are these vibrations so rare on the front brake where the angle is steeper?

- My rotors are clean and uncontaminated
- My brake pads are clean and uncontaminated
- My rotors are true
- The frame brake tabs are not an issue and do not need to be 'faced' because the Avid tri-align washers provably put the calipers in the correct position
- When pads rub on the rotor arms this doesn't cause vibrations on many bikes

These have been eliminated, leaves a few things, the resonant properties of the bike frame and caliper angle are one of the few potential causes left.


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## dzoo (Nov 11, 2010)

Can u believe that this is still a concern. After all this time they still have not fixed this. My Stumpy 29er HT Comp is a 2010 and only 2months old and I hate to ride it.


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## mefistofeles (Jun 1, 2009)

I would recommend going to a floating rotor. I changed out the rotors on my bike to Shimano RT-76, there's still some noise but the vibration issue is gone.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I've had zero problems with Juicy 7's and Elixir CR's. One of my riding buddies' XTR brakes squawk all the time now and I've been giving him a hard time about it 8)


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## mefistofeles (Jun 1, 2009)

It's not so much Avid's brakes per se but how they interact with any given frame. I use Avid Code 5s' on my XTC Advanced and haven't had ANY PROBLEMS NO VIBRATION NO NOISE. However the XTC 29er1 is a very different story and I think frame material and construction is why. The XTC 29er1 uses a hydroformed aluminum frame in contrast to the XTC Advanced which is made of carbon fiber.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

lew242 said:


> My theory is as good if not better than all the other amateur theories suggested here.


You either haven't read mine, or simply chose not to debate any of the points in it. I used science (physics and mechanics) to draw a conclusion based on my controlled experimentation and results. If you feel any of it is invalid, I'd love to debate the merits of my arguments; you might teach me something.



lew242 said:


> How do you know that there wasn't a different steeper caliper angle on other frames that didn't cause vibrations when brakes were moved across onto new frames? How do you know this is absolutely not a reason why it has not been mentioned before so therefore not eliminated? Why are these vibrations so rare on the front brake where the angle is steeper?


Pretty simple, actually. I had turkeys front and rear on my Scalpel. The front caliper was nearly vertical, as you can imagine, and the rear about 30 deg. from horizontal. Both had the same problem, and both were permanently fixed without altering the angle of the caliper. No other changes were made to my brake systems.



lew242 said:


> - The frame brake tabs are not an issue and do not need to be 'faced' because the Avid tri-align washers provably put the calipers in the correct position


There's a little more to the facing issue. While I don't think people need to find a machine shop and truly face the metal, many of the caliper mounting faces are painted. After some caliper adjustments, the paint can start to detach from the face and bunch up. Bunched up paint is neither very stiff nor flat compared to milled AL, and therefore the caliper may not be mounted as rigidly as possible, opening the door for more noise and vibration problems than a proper mounting surface. I wouldn't expect this to be a root cause ot the turkeys, though, but would likely exacerbate any existing noise/vibration condition. A simple filing or sanding does the trick here.

I can thoroughly explain why my solution worked using solid science. If you can do the same with your caliper angle theory, I'm all ears. I'll give you a hint to save you some time, though: the forces in play at the pad/rotor interface are significantly stronger (several orders of magnitude) than those of gravity acting on the caliper assembly.

Something else for you to chew on (taken from Universal Cycles' website):

*"G3 SolidSweep rotors are designed to help eliminate resonance/vibration in certain frame/wheel/brake configurations by removing cutouts in the rotor braking surface"*


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## lew242 (Aug 7, 2008)

Your theory is that you have to change or file the rotors? 
Changed the brakes on to a different frame. Same wheels. Rotors, calipers everything else is the same. But vibrations have all gone. So my amateur science would suggest that is a frame issue.

This could be for a combination of reasons, of which pad type, rotor machining and cheapness, lack of damping in caliper and angle of the caliper could be the whole or part of the problem.

Guess what? There are loads of people who have stopped their warbles by doing different things, including changing pads, adding washers, changing rotors and changing frames. Imagine how this thread would be if they spent their time shooting down everyone else' theories as plain wrong and unscientific because they are different from theirs? God that would be irritating.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Many theories, i have a solution that worked on two different bikes i own, fs and ht. I can take calipers off (for fork maintenace) and put them back on with no problem. 

Coat the back of the pads with disc quiet. Blast the calipers and wipe the rotors with brake cleaner spray. Find a nice hill and burn them in well. If the pads are possibly contaminated, sand them a bit and soak in brake cleaner to dissolve the contaminants.

Pad break in takes a while. If its a new bike, the best break in procedure is to ride it hard.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

dzoo said:


> Can u believe that this is still a concern. After all this time they still have not fixed this. My Stumpy 29er HT Comp is a 2010 and only 2months old and I hate to ride it.


I was shocked to see this thread still going. Avid seems to have tried with their solid sweep g3 rotor. That is really just a bandaid.

The best solution is:
1) Take the brakes off the bike.

2) Put them in a box in and store them in the garage in the hottest possible place. Make them suffer for your headaches RE this issue.

3) Look for some Formula K18 or K24 closeouts or some used RX. Magura Julie or Marta's are a good choice too.

4) Mount the Formulas or Magura on your bike

5) Ride hard..................

6) Repeat step 5 as time and conditions allow.

Problem solved.


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## AK47 (Mar 22, 2004)

With my Avid Juicy 3's, the front brake works fine with no grinding, turkey warbling, etc. The rear brake, however, exhibits ALL of these frustrating traits even after having the LBS look at it. 

I tried the washers under the caliper suggestion to no avail. Then just to experiment, tonight I pulled off a Alligator Serration rotor from another bike and tried that. VOILA! Problem completely solved. I am going to call Avid tomorrow to see what they say about this...


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## og1 (Mar 3, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> I was shocked to see this thread still going. Avid seems to have tried with their solid sweep g3 rotor. That is really just a bandaid.
> 
> The best solution is:
> 1) Take the brakes off the bike.
> ...


this worked for me. i tried everything and couldnt silence my sevens. i stepped up to saint 4 pistons and couldnt be happier. yes they are heavier but they are silent and modulation is amazing.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

AK47 said:


> With my Avid Juicy 3's, the front brake works fine with no grinding, turkey warbling, etc. The rear brake, however, exhibits ALL of these frustrating traits even after having the LBS look at it.
> 
> I tried the washers under the caliper suggestion to no avail. Then just to experiment, tonight I pulled off a Alligator Serration rotor from another bike and tried that. VOILA! Problem completely solved. I am going to call Avid tomorrow to see what they say about this...


They'll give you a pat on the head and say good boy


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe the Elixir 7/9 rotors will silence the gobble?

http://www.sram.com/avid/products/elixir-9-hydraulic-disc-brake


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## yabodie (Nov 4, 2010)

I had this problem on my Stumpjumper EVO to the point my daughter told me the noise hurt her ears. I swapped out the stock pads for organic pads and G3 cleansweep rotor for the G3 solidsweep rotor. 

No more noise! 

I still have the clean sweep on the front, but that one never made a noise. 

I wish I had done this earlier...


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## charborne (Feb 22, 2011)

*Squeeling and frame vibration - rear hydraul brakes - Harmonic dampening*

Scoured the internet, spent money on various techniques, professional help and different parts. I spent 2 months, looking for an answer, in vain...

After, I like to think, a revelation I can now turn on and turn off, the squealing and chronic frame vibration, like a tap.

The trick? Cable tied, tightly, a weight (my 110gm multi tool wrapped in a piece of innertube) to the outside, bottom end of the caliper-side seat stay. (you may need to try a different part of your frame)

The resonance created by the brake seemed to flex the seat stay like a guitar string. I could dampen the vibration with my fingers clamped on the seat stay. I guess the weight unbalanced the stay's vibrating properties. I think it's called harmonic dampening.

It's amazing! I'm still buzzing but no longer vibrating. I'd be keen to know if this solves your issue. Please post results.
Good luck.


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

My Elixirs CRs on my Rockhopper were very loud. I traded in the Rockhopper for a Camber and swapped over my components and they are silent!


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## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

Add me to the ginormous list of people angry at their Avids. Just bought a 3 year old bike that is still practically brand new, previous owner was scared to ride it because of the noise, going to try some Squeal Out and see how it goes.


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

*Thank U for that*



nubcake said:


> if your getting this problem, call avid. We have had a couple customers come through our shop with this problem and everytime avid has made it right by either replacing the rotor or in some cases the entire brake system


Taking your advice I called SRAM at 312-664-8800, explained the Juicy 3's that came on my bike are squealing/howling/vibrating, etc. The rep, I think name was Jeff immediately told me they have a warranty fix with a special rotor/pad combo, and to call my dealer to order it.

Spoke with my helpful dealer and apparently there was a manufacturing defect in some rotors, or at least that was part of the problem, and looks like Avid is correcting the issue.

The sound is absolutely obnoxious!

thanks


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## mtbtacolover (Dec 29, 2010)

i dont have juicy brakes, but i do have this problem, im subbing for later when so i can read all this


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## estabro (Oct 9, 2009)

_Anyone have luck trying a different Juicy caliper on the rear?_ This could isolate the problem to the caliper itself.

I'd rather not sell my brakes and buy a different brand because I have a lot of extra pads and the bleed kit, but seems like I might not have a choice...


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

estabro said:


> _Anyone have luck trying a different Juicy caliper on the rear?_ This could isolate the problem to the caliper itself.
> 
> I'd rather not sell my brakes and buy a different brand because I have a lot of extra pads and the bleed kit, but seems like I might not have a choice...


Focus on the rotor. The root cause is excessive vibration at the rotor/pad interface. Whether or not the vibration is objectionable is affected by many, many things, and thus why some have had luck with various band-aids such as damping the caliper with weight or wrapping a seat stay to change it's resonant properties. These remedies do not stop the root cause vibration - they only change the resonant frequency of the system so that the still-present vibration can no longer excite the system into resonance.

Look up Avid's description of their solid sweep rotor - it was created to address this problem (although not a great solution since the vents are needed to properly deal with water and heat).


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## estabro (Oct 9, 2009)

Pedalphile said:


> Focus on the rotor. The root cause is excessive vibration at the rotor/pad interface. Whether or not the vibration is objectionable is affected by many, many things, and thus why some have had luck with various band-aids such as damping the caliper with weight or wrapping a seat stay to change it's resonant properties. These remedies do not stop the root cause vibration - they only change the resonant frequency of the system so that the still-present vibration can no longer excite the system into resonance.
> 
> Look up Avid's description of their solid sweep rotor - it was created to address this problem (although not a great solution since the vents are needed to properly deal with water and heat).


Thus far I have tried different rotors (clean sweep and old style roundagon), different pads (metallic and organic). Also a variety of cleaning, sanding, and witchcraft.

The solid sweep rotors look promising, but they are expensive and I hate to throw any more money after already dropping for the other new rotors and pads.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

This be the fix, but so far my LBS says he's hearing they're still not available yet.


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

mtnbkrdr98 said:


> Taking your advice I called SRAM at 312-664-8800, explained the Juicy 3's that came on my bike are squealing/howling/vibrating, etc. The rep, I think name was Jeff immediately told me they have a warranty fix with a special rotor/pad combo, and to call my dealer to order it.
> 
> Spoke with my helpful dealer and apparently there was a manufacturing defect in some rotors, or at least that was part of the problem, and looks like Avid is correcting the issue.
> 
> ...


I hope it works for you but see my journey down that path here
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719435


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

I saw these XO brakes that seem to be available and show the HS1's. Hopefully the rotors will ship soon.


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## estabro (Oct 9, 2009)

pamt said:


> I hope it works for you but see my journey down that path here
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719435


I hope that Shimano is not the solution to my avid problem, but it might be...


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## RocktonRider (Nov 30, 2010)

estabro said:


> Thus far I have tried different rotors (clean sweep and old style roundagon), different pads (metallic and organic). Also a variety of cleaning, sanding, and witchcraft.
> 
> The solid sweep rotors look promising, but they are expensive and I hate to throw any more money after already dropping for the other new rotors and pads.


I had a similar problem and bought one of the SolidSweeps hoping that it would cure the problem. It made it *slightly* better, but it was far from being the solution to the problem. I'd suggest saving your money and trying something else. Perhaps voodoo instead of witchcraft?


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## parkp81 (Oct 29, 2005)

I got rid of mine and gave up, bought a set of 2012 shimano xt for $50 after selling my elixir cr. Problem solved.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Windcutters.....still working for me a year later.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

mtbtacolover said:


> i dont have juicy brakes, but i do have this problem, im subbing for later when so i can read all this


What brakes do you have


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

pamt said:


> I hope it works for you but see my journey down that path here
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719435


Geez, a complication. Glad your LBS made it right 4u. I've been waiting almost 2 weeks for the warranty parts. If it works, awesome. If it doesn't, I likely won't have Avid brakes again.


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## 66hardtop (Dec 23, 2009)

*Avid Elixir R*

I posted a question some time ago before reading this thread. Read the thread and tried a few of the remedies. Unfortunately none solved the issue. Eventually put on my old Shimano LX brakes - no more issues. Rode with them for a while and decided to try the Elixirs agian. Used the Elixirs with a Shimano LX disk rim set up from my old bike and no turkey wobles. Took the bike to my LBS and showed them my fix. They took off my LX rim and put the rim with Elixir disk back on with Organic pads. Still had same issue but slightely better. I have only one ride in the wet to test so far. It was a wet ride so hoping the wet weather had something to do with the slight turkey squeal. Will try agian this weekend, hopefully with dry weather to test the organic pads.
Heres hoping all is well. Will post result soon

66hardtop


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

I see that the HS1's are available at AEBike and Universal Cycles, and the HSX's are available on Amazon. Time to take another run at my LBS.


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## 9speed (Aug 12, 2009)

I've only just started riding with Juicies. I put a new but unused set on a recent hardtail build.

The brakes do have their foibles.

The rotors are a little flimsy and easy to bend causing scuffing and rubbing.. so they scuff and shimmer often on a ride, the scuffs and shimmers appearing and reappearing.. so rotor robustness is surely an issue here? I don't believe I am having any pad retraction issues.. 

I also think the howling or honking at higher speeds is the product of the conical washer system.. I think funny little resonances are building up in that system.. I wonder whether 10 N/m is adequate for the installation and what might be a safer higher torque.. I shall experiment with some loctite and a slightly higher torque..

As with any disc brake I find that lever and brake can be hardened up between bleeds by regular lever squeezing during rides and elastic band straping when not in use...


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## onlyontwo (Nov 21, 2006)

I just thought I would offer up some tricks I have found over the years with Avid brakes. We currently own four sets of Avid brakes in our household (three sets of Elixers including XO and one set of juicy carbon/ultimate combo). All of these brakes are almost silent. My only "trick" that has ever solved the noise issue is organic pads. 

When I was running the standard sintered pads I could never get them to be quiet. With the organics they are noise free. 

Cheers,
Andy


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

onlyontwo said:


> I just thought I would offer up some tricks I have found over the years with Avid brakes. We currently own four sets of Avid brakes in our household (three sets of Elixers including XO and one set of juicy carbon/ultimate combo). All of these brakes are almost silent. My only "trick" that has ever solved the noise issue is organic pads.
> 
> When I was running the standard sintered pads I could never get them to be quiet. With the organics they are noise free.
> 
> ...


 I wish it were that simple, but XX's ship with organic pads, and everyone I know with them has the turkey gobble, both on the SC Tallboy and the Pivot Mach 429


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## 66hardtop (Dec 23, 2009)

*Avid Elixir R and Yeti 575*

I have tried the Organic pads and they have solved my problem.Two rides so far, one in the wet the other dry. Don't understand why it is sloved now, as i trued this fix previousely and it didn't work. My LBS fitted the pads this time? Maybe i did't fit them correctely?
Hopefully this is the last of my issues.
All the best and thanks for the comments
66hardtop


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Windcutters people. Best thing I ever did. Brakes work like they should. Gonnna throw a set on my FS Stumpy 29er this week.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

xpost from beg forum:

i brought my and my wife's bikes to the lbs for a couple free tune-ups and now both of our brakes are squealing. i have elixir 5s on my el mar and my wife j3s on her xcal.

there was no squeal before this. could it be the lbs cleaning the rotors and now the brakes need to bed in again, or is the squeal there forever now? i'm just trying to think what could have changed from my pre-lbs visit to bringing them home last night. or i guess it could be just one of those issues where now our brakes squeal.

i know organic pads may fix the issue and possibly sanding but wonder why the braking power is so little and the squeal is deafening

thanks!
ez


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## Daemon[CRO] (Jul 14, 2010)

Avid discs, Cleansweeps, are so bad in geometry and design that Avid/SRAM change them to new, changed, version for free under warranty. 

Most of the problems in this thread can be reduced to rotors causing issues. They either horribly contact with pads, or get glazed (rear ones) with fine dust which turns to fine layer of glass, etc. 

Change rotors not to new G3 Cleansweeps or something in that design, but to something radically different. Sawtooth design works best. With that, change pads to any new pads. Old ones got trashed by Cleansweep.

Edit: LBS where I hang out is SRAM official dealership. Guys that work there have couple of bikes each. XO, XX, X9 parts, meaning Avid. All of them DO NOT have Avid rotors. They have Hope Saw.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

i got back from the bike shop and they called avid to hear what they had to say about the brakes squealing like crazy. the rep said organic pads and then they have to bed in with about 15 minutes of braking. so they installed organic pads on both bikes and told us to let them know in a couple weeks if it doesn't get better. we'll see.

thanks!
ez


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## Climber Rob (Jul 14, 2011)

Eric Z said:


> xpost from beg forum:
> 
> i brought my and my wife's bikes to the lbs for a couple free tune-ups and now both of our brakes are squealing. i have elixir 5s on my el mar and my wife j3s on her xcal.
> 
> ...


Sounds like they contaminated the rotors while working on the bike. I would take them back and ask them, politely, to fix the problem.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

Climber Rob said:


> Sounds like they contaminated the rotors while working on the bike. I would take them back and ask them, politely, to fix the problem.


that's what i think too. thanks! i brought the bike back and they thoroughly cleaned the rotors and pads- the squealing was still bad but may need to have been re-bed. they went ahead and cleaned the rotors again and threw organic pads on both bikes. i'm hoping the squealing now is just them being re-bed.


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## pcire (Oct 27, 2006)

*Elixer CR*

My brakes were noisy and as well. After reading the thread, I checked how my pads contacted the disc. They appeared to be somewhat low, creating a rub mark on the ribs that support the brake surface. As one poster indicated, I shimmed the caliper up to align the pad contact with the disc contact surface.

Rode last night and the brakes felt much better (after break in) and were much quieter.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

just thought i'd follow up with an update. organic pads did the trick- no more squealing on my bike or my wife's!

thanks for your help, guys!

that's all.
ez


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## yabodie (Nov 4, 2010)

A follow up for my bike... 

I swapped out for solid sweeps, organic pads and still had noise. So I went back to the LBS and asked if they could investigate. Turns out the non drive side caliper was stuck so only one side was working. He swapped out for metallic pads, and fixed the caliper and bled the system. A quick ride around the parking lot and the neighborhood, no noise.

6ish mile ride on single track through mud, dust, etc... not a peep.

So I *hope* that is the end of the noise, but for now I'm pleased.


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## NoviceMTB (Sep 29, 2010)

2011 stumpy fsr comp, horrible squeal and vibration from the rear. Horrible. Ordered an HS1 from the above mentioned source, left the stock pads in place. So far, quiet and vibration free. I'll try a real ride tomorrow.


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## 66hardtop (Dec 23, 2009)

Gents, I have had enough of Avids! Put the organic pads on and no issue. Now after 60km of riding I am back to the same place. Will different disks solve the issue? When I put my back wheel of my Avanti Hammer on the Yeti no problems. The Avanti is using Shimano LX set up. The Avids work better with a different disk/wheel. I also tried a chunkier disk which slightly solved the issue, but not totally. I will read some of the older posts to see if anything else I am missing. 
Cheers.


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## Eckstream1 (Jul 27, 2011)

Mine only start making noise once they heat up... Like able to smell the pads kinda heat!

I don't really mind it though...


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

66hardtop said:


> Gents, I have had enough of Avids! Put the organic pads on and no issue. Now after 60km of riding I am back to the same place.* Will different disks solve the issue?* When I put my back wheel of my Avanti Hammer on the Yeti no problems. The Avanti is using *Shimano LX* set up. The Avids work better with a different disk/wheel. I also tried a chunkier disk which slightly solved the issue, but not totally. I will read some of the older posts to see if anything else I am missing.
> Cheers.


Several years ago, I switched to Shimano disks and Jagwire pads for my Juicy 7's and have had zero problems with noise and vibration since. This was after I had tried many other things that either did not help or only lasted a short time.


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## NoviceMTB (Sep 29, 2010)

NoviceMTB said:


> 2011 stumpy fsr comp, horrible squeal and vibration from the rear. Horrible. Ordered an HS1 from the above mentioned source, left the stock pads in place. So far, quiet and vibration free. I'll try a real ride tomorrow.


Post ride: slight metal-on-metal noise still, but the warble/vibration is gone for now.


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## NoviceMTB (Sep 29, 2010)

NoviceMTB said:


> Post ride: slight metal-on-metal noise still, but the warble/vibration is gone for now.


Second ride, the noise/vibration is back. Rear 180mm HS1 (shimano 180 brake adapter), stock semi-metallic pads. Will try organic pads next, I guess.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

I finally got SRAM to replace my XX rotors with the HSX's and a new set of organic pads. I've got 4 or 5 rides on them now, a couple of wet rides, one 25 mile XC race, and yesterday had some long screaming downhills. I have heard a little gobble from the rear brake here and there, mainly while braking hard at somewhat low speed on steep terrain. Yesterday was 18 miles, 3000 feet of climbing and descents, and not a single gobble. I'm optimistic that this might be the cure for mine.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I did my annual bike maintenance. To save a few bucks, I rotated my brake pads from back to front, and visa versa after my brake bleed. Gobble, grind and squeal came back. Blasted the calipers with brake cleaner, wiped down the rotors and broke them in again. Silent as a baby. 

Per my past experience, break-in takes time. I expect the vibrations to come back, then completely stop after 2 to 4 rides with brake cleaner blasts in between.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Another few rides, including a very muddy VT50, and no gobble. I believe I'm cured.


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## mgsuarez (Dec 8, 2004)

2012 Epic 29er, Elixer 7 SLs front is warbling/gobbaling. Rotor is a bit off. I've been trying to true it. Not really easy to get perfect at least for me. HS1 rotor by the way. Semi metallic stock pad. Might be going back to some XT's. The bike is two weeks old. You suck AVID!!!!


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## Kring (Aug 29, 2011)

SOLVED!!!!!! Read on folks - I fixed mine this way

I have a 2012 Epic 29er Comp with Avid Elixir 7's. Just like @mgsuarez and most of you, I had horrible turkey gobble/warble, squeal, and serious shudder when trying to stop.. I took back to LBS they couldn't figure out right away and said it's bad, shouldn't do it, and they would order organic pads. I'm riding too much to leave for a few days so I set about trying to do my own fixing and I resolve it! Here's how.

Cleaning rotors, sanding & baking pads did nothing at all. Sanding & re-bedding did nothing. I was leaning toward bad system but I wanted to check the lines. and that fixed it! What it came down to was a SERIOUS amount of air in the system that was not visible. proper brake bleeding using vacuum pressure produces massive amounts of air! I have never done brake bleeding or used DOT 5.1 fluid but it was a chemistry miracle what was occurring. When I used vacuum pressure I could watch the fluid turn into boiling seltzer... It's clear now that the shop just filled the brake system without using the proper bleeding proceedure. 

I got home from my ride, sanded pads and cleaned rotors, then tested with still noise, I then realigned the calipers and tested but still having noise. I lastly did the brake bleed and it was instantly gone, much better stopping performance, no more shudder and not a peep, silent as could be. All this in the course of 60 minutes.

So the fix for this is to do a proper & professional bleed following Avid's instructions and you MUST MUST MUST use the vacuum method by pulling the syringes which causes the air to expand and bubble to the top... you will be amazed at how much air comes out of the brake fluid!!

Also, Another thing I noticed that helps. The caliper alignment is important and I identified that it's not easy to do perfectly.. the auto-align feature doesn't work unless you do two key things. First, thoroughly lube all the mounting points, the screw, the fork, all the washers and spacers. The reason for this is that I found that while tightening one piece tends to grab and then slide out of alignment... it doesn't matter how hard you squeeze the brakes it will pull slightly if it's not lubricated and you end up having one pad grab the rotor first rather then at the same time, you can see that it's open enough to spin free, but as soon as you apply the brakes one pad touches and it warps the rotor to the other pad. The second part is to very very very slowly tighten the bolts. here's the steps:
1.) loose both bolts completely, lube everything, careful not to get on rotors and pads
2.) Squeeze the brakes firmly and hold throughout the process
3.) Tighten both bolts just until they touch but where you can still move the caliper on the mount even though it's tightly grabbing the rotor
4.) Begin tightening each bolt by by only 5 or 10 degrees at most and alternate bolts back and forth. this is key because it prevents the grab and slide knocking it out of alignment. think that you will need to make 40 ever-so-slight turns until it reaches the proper tightness.
5.) Release the brake lever
6.) Give one more tightening to ensure that you are at the correct torque setting for the bolts
7.) Now visually look down the caliper and rotor to see the gap between the pads and rotor, slowly apply the brakes and they should now both grab without any flex in the rotor.
8.) Thoroughly clean up any mounting point lube
9.) use rubbing alcohol to clean rotors, caliper, mounting point etc...
10.) Go enjoy properly aligned brakes with no more turkey warble, squeal, shudder and fantastic brake feedback and stopping power.

It's clear to me now that there is a skill in proper brake setup, and these are great brakes that do not perform properly unless all the above is done with precision. I picked up the Avid professional bleed kit from Amazon to do this.


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## mkk (Jan 7, 2011)

^^^^ I hope you're right. I have serious doubts. Let us know how it works out long-term.


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

Kring said:


> SOLVED!!!!!! Read on folks - I fixed mine this way
> 
> I have a 2012 Epic 29er Comp with Avid Elixir 7's. Just like @mgsuarez and most of you, I had horrible turkey gobble/warble, squeal, and serious shudder when trying to stop.. I took back to LBS they couldn't figure out right away and said it's bad, shouldn't do it, and they would order organic pads. I'm riding too much to leave for a few days so I set about trying to do my own fixing and I resolve it! Here's how.
> 
> ...


Well done and a great job on the detail but I to will be curious if it works in the long term. But you even if does you should not have to go through all this BS just to get brakes to work properly. I loved my CR's and the were hands down the best brakes I have ever used *when they **worked* but the amount of effort to make them do so just wasn't worth it.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Kring said:


> SOLVED!!!!!! Read on folks - I fixed mine this way
> 
> I have a 2012 Epic 29er Comp with Avid Elixir 7's. Just like @mgsuarez and most of you, I had horrible turkey gobble/warble, squeal, and serious shudder when trying to stop.. I took back to LBS they couldn't figure out right away and said it's bad, shouldn't do it, and they would order organic pads. I'm riding too much to leave for a few days so I set about trying to do my own fixing and I resolve it! Here's how.
> 
> ...


Been there, done that. It won't last long.

I've spoken with many people about this, the easiest fix is a new rotor. Something other than avid.

I know some guys at a shop, they ride avid brake, but they have all changed their rotors to a different, more radical design.

I've been using the Alligator Serrated, windcutters on my Stumpy 29er SS for over a year know. I've never sanded the rotors or pads since I installed them, and have not had any issues.


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## mayberry32 (Sep 17, 2011)

I've read through this thread, and a few others, and I have a completely different sound. I get the turkey warble, but not in the rear brake. It's in the front brake, while going downhill, under pressure. The sound is horrible. The brake works fine...it's just loud as hell. Any ideas what I can do to fix the front brake, and correct the sound?


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## shaggybiker (Oct 6, 2011)

I just got a motobecane with elixir 9s and hs1 rotors a week a ago...pretty much immediate turkey warble...have tried many remedies that failed until i took a washer from the top of the caliper and mover it underneath the caliper changing the angle slightly and the warble is gone for now...3 rides no warble


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## mgsuarez (Dec 8, 2004)

Both my HS1s were warped out of the box. I rotated my quiet rear to the front and added a 140 XX in the rear. Noise is lessened, not quite what I would expect from a new bike and new rotor design. Gona try some Magura Storm SLs next.


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## mgsuarez (Dec 8, 2004)

shaggybiker said:


> I just got a motobecane with elixir 9s and hs1 rotors a week a ago...pretty much immediate turkey warble...have tried many remedies that failed until i took a washer from the top of the caliper and mover it underneath the caliper changing the angle slightly and the warble is gone for now...3 rides no warble


Alright I am giving this a try. I made the adjustment. I will try it tomm. I hope it works.


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## shaggybiker (Oct 6, 2011)

mgsuarez said:


> Alright I am giving this a try. I made the adjustment. I will try it tomm. I hope it works.


It seems silly such a small adjustment would make a difference...but after another couple rides still no warble...hope it works for ya


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## mgsuarez (Dec 8, 2004)

Well moving that spacer helped for about 5 min. then back to the Warble. It only happens on slow steep stuff. I have some Alligator rotors that I am going to try next. Have I said Avid sucks yet? I miss my Shimanos or Maguras or my old Hopes. Anything but Avid. Specialized needs to go back to Magura or something.

Its too bad those HS1s are only 88 grams. in a 160.


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## lwpautz (Sep 12, 2011)

My bikes gone back to Specialized for them to sort out now. My LBS have tried everything. I dont get any noise, just massive vibration from the front. I can actually see the forks vibrating, and it feels like I have ABS on my bike! Looks like I'll be without my 4 week old Camber for about 2 weeks though.


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## shaggybiker (Oct 6, 2011)

My squeek is back...though not nearly as bad as before...bah figures...gonna try organics...called my lbs about fixing the problem...though the pads and any other problems will be covered...labor is not.


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## Philsilva (Oct 19, 2011)

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Pro SL with Avid juicy 3 hydraulic disc brakes and organic compound brake pads,and G2 Clean Sweep rotors which is only 2 months old.

I had the crazy loud rear brake squeal from day 1 and as soon as I would slightly touch the brake lever! so I took it back to the store for a fix which they did by replacing the pads.

On a recent first XC trip out after the fix when we did 24 miles I didn't have noise until I hit a fast section when it squealed so loudly that it would have woken the dead!! Now it has this problem when pushing it fast or downhill and on a recent trip home through a small village downhill It screamed like hell all the way down! I was not popular! 

I'm taking it back again on the 31st and having read the thread I may ask for a change of rotor as a fix - what do people think?


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## CNC Scott (Apr 18, 2011)

I finally gave up on trying to quiet down my jucy 3 brakes. Although Sram tried to be helpful and had two different bike shops to try various things including different pads and rotors. The noise was still there. I could not waste any more time dealing with the noise that would always come back. I switched to Shimano SLX brakes about 3 months ago and they work great with only an occasional chirp when i am creeping along at maybe 1 mph doing track stands.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

i just purchased a jamis dakota d29 team less than a month ago n it has the infamous turkey warble on rear brake n front brakes shakes the fork uncontrolably when stoping under load at a decent speed. i have taken my bike to the shop were it was purchased 2 times for this n all they do is try n reallign my xo brakeset. i jus called avid yesterday n i was told that they have had this problem but it wasnt common, by the looks of this thread it seems a bit more than uncommon. avid is supposed to send out new rotors n pads once the sop calls them. has anyone who got the replacement pads n rotors from avid had there problem cured or was more steps taken.


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## exmonk (Sep 27, 2011)

chrisscrubz said:


> i just purchased a jamis dakota d29 team less than a month ago n it has the infamous turkey warble on rear brake n front brakes shakes the fork uncontrolably when stoping under load at a decent speed. i have taken my bike to the shop were it was purchased 2 times for this n all they do is try n reallign my xo brakeset. i jus called avid yesterday n i was told that they have had this problem but it wasnt common, by the looks of this thread it seems a bit more than uncommon. avid is supposed to send out new rotors n pads once the sop calls them. has anyone who got the replacement pads n rotors from avid had there problem cured or was more steps taken.


I've been waiting to post my Juicy 3 saga until I was sure it's been resolved (haven't tested out the latest fix yet which was replacement with Elixir 3 brake sets), but my LBS tried the replace rotor/pad fix with the Avid-dictated bedding procedure. I tested the bike before I left the shop and had horrid squalling/screeching from the front brake and also a vibration on the front under hard braking.

Strangely, when the LBS did the replacement and bedding procedure, they had different mechanics ride the bike with no problem. When I picked it up the next day it started making a little noise almost immediately, and got worse the longer I tested it. I trust the guys at the bike shop and I don't think for a minute they were lying to me about it giving them no trouble the day before.

I left the bike with them and that was followed with the full brake system replacement, still to be trail-tested. I'm riding a 2011 Trek X-Caliber with a 17.5" frame.

It seems different fixes work for different people. Hopefully the rotor/pad replacement will take care of you. Hopefully also Avid gives them the "proper" bedding-in procedure (even though it doesn't seem to make any difference) so that your bike shop can go back to Avid with "we did what you said, now what" if that doesn't work.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

thanx exmonk. hopefully it will work. stoping by the shop today to see what avid told my lbs. really frustrating i explain to them the bike is 4900$ msrp i should not be having this kind of problem after spending this amount on a bike nor do i have extra $to replace the system myself i also emailed jamis but of course no response as of yet from them. i hate to be negative but i told my lbs i will not stand for this kind of quality on a bike i paid this much for, my 900$ bike didnt do this. someone will remedy this problem either avid, jamis or my lbs


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Take the pads out, sand the surface a little, then heat them over a gas stove until they’re smoking and the pliers you’re holding them with are starting to turn red. Would be a good idea to wear a mask and not breath in the fumes. I found this idea somewhere on here, maybe even this thread. So far it has cured my Elixir CR SL brakes of turkey warble and contaminated pads, and my Elixir CR brakes of the worst turkey warble I’ve heard. All sintered pads. Both sets of brakes have run smoothly/silently since being bedded in again, with no noticeable loss in power. Could be worth trying if you haven’t already…or not.


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## Loz2e (Sep 16, 2011)

*Avid brakes ELIXIR*

My ELIXIR 3's have the same problem.........it's very anoying, have e-mailed Chain Reaction Cycles with problem (Vitus Zircon 1 still under warranty) will let you know.
:rant:


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## scottie mac (Nov 3, 2011)

Sorry if this has been asked already, I don't want to read thru 750 responses........

I have a new Specialized Camber Comp 29er with Avid Elixir 7 SLs. They are turkey gobling like crazy!! I tried cleaning and sanding the pads, the rotors, everything. I am about ready to hammer them into oblivion. 

Is there anyone on here with these particular brakes who has come up with some sort of solution? I have only had the bike for 2 months and the problem started at about the 3rd ride. Is there someone or a contact for me to go to at Avid? 

Thanks in advance,
Scottie


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## mgsuarez (Dec 8, 2004)

I have the same brakes on a Epic Comp. My front was the worse on slow, steep descents, Rear wasnt bad at all. Both my rotors were warped, although never damaged from crashes etc... I ended up swapping out both rotors and the noise was essentially gone. Everything else was a waste of time.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Try the HS1 or HSX rotors with new organic pads. It silenced the gobble on my XX's. It's been over 2 months, riding 3-4 times a week.


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## scottie mac (Nov 3, 2011)

Anyone have contact info for Avid?

SM


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## doug4sail (Jan 2, 2006)

I Have Avid Brakes on all my bikes but I dont run Avid pads. I Use EBC pads. They never make any noise and have great modulation currently running Juicy 7s, Elixers and BB7s. They Make BB 7s feel as good as some Hydraulics I have used.

Mountain Bike Brakes Index


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## exmonk (Sep 27, 2011)

*Brake Noise Video*

Here's what's going on with my Avid Elixir 3 brakes that were provided by Avid as replacements to my very noisy Juicy 3 set. This started after 9 miles of riding on not terribly aggressive singletrack. The noisy brake is the front.

Once we get this completely hammered out I'll put up a detailed post with all that was attempted and what worked (nothing yet) and what didn't (everything so far).

My LBS is doing everything they can to work with me on this. The service manager is taking my bike out to ride it this week on the trail to see if he can replicate it and try to understand what's going on.


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

doug4sail said:


> I Have Avid Brakes on all my bikes but I dont run Avid pads. I Use EBC pads. They never make any noise and have great modulation currently running Juicy 7s, Elixers and BB7s. They Make BB 7s feel as good as some Hydraulics I have used.
> 
> Mountain Bike Brakes Index


Do you use gold or green?


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## mayberry32 (Sep 17, 2011)

exmonk said:


> Here's what's going on with my Avid Elixir 3 brakes that were provided by Avid as replacements to my very noisy Juicy 3 set. This started after 9 miles of riding on not terribly aggressive singletrack. The noisy brake is the front.
> 
> Once we get this completely hammered out I'll put up a detailed post with all that was attempted and what worked (nothing yet) and what didn't (everything so far).
> 
> My LBS is doing everything they can to work with me on this. The service manager is taking my bike out to ride it this week on the trail to see if he can replicate it and try to understand what's going on.


I have the exact same sound from my front brake. It seems that most here have a different sound in the rear brake. But, mine has always been the front. I've tried new pads, and those work a little better. The brakes still scream downhill, under pressure, though. If you find a fix, please let me know. Thanks, and good luck!


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

mayberry32 said:


> I have the exact same sound from my front brake. It seems that most here have a different sound in the rear brake. But, mine has always been the front. I've tried new pads, and those work a little better. The brakes still scream downhill, under pressure, though. If you find a fix, please let me know. Thanks, and good luck!


The fix is a different rotor. Funny how you guys are gonna go through everything I went through just to find the same solution.

Have you even read this thread?

Solution=different rotor, not the Avid kind, They will send you the Clean Sweep rotor with no vents, but it's not gonna work.

Solution=adding weight to the caliper or rear triangle.

Solution=buying a new brake system that is not Avid

That's it. Try different pads, clean em, scrub em, bleed em, why not try one organic and one metallic pad??? All of this isn't gonna work.

Believe!!!


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Seems like the only real cure is a new rotor. Any concensus on the best replacement rotor. I have turkeys front and rear.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

sbd said:


> Seems like the only real cure is a new rotor. Any concensus on the best replacement rotor. I have turkeys front and rear.


If this is such a known problem why are manufacturers specing them on their bikes? Don't say cost. Any businessman knows that in the long run that will hurt them.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

got a question? can i put organic brake pads on my bike after my rotors have already been bed in with metalic pads?


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## gym7jim (Nov 14, 2011)

i have a set of juicy ultimates on my bike. the front brake has air in the line, does anyone know of a quick way to bleed the lines without using a bleed kit?


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

with the bleed kit follow the instructions that come with the kit or look avid bleed kit under videos on google and theres step by step videos


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

sory just seen that you dont have a bleed kit. i have no idea!


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

chrisscrubz said:


> got a question? can i put organic brake pads on my bike after my rotors have already been bed in with metalic pads?


Yes.

As bedding is just mating the pads to the rotor, it does make sense to give the rotors a light sanding with medium to fine grain followed by a cleaning with alcohol or brake parts cleaner. This will give the new pads some nice clean metal to bed with.

-Pete


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

gym7jim said:


> i have a set of juicy ultimates on my bike. the front brake has air in the line, does anyone know of a quick way to bleed the lines without using a bleed kit?


Not going to happen. Get a bleed kit or take it to your LBS.


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## hartwerks (Oct 2, 2011)

scottie mac said:


> Anyone have contact info for Avid?
> 
> SM


You will need to go through your LBS to contact Avid. They are very good at taking care of their customers, but they do want you to go through a dealer.

Also, the new HS1 rotors are very quiet, and seem to have gone a long way towards taking care of the noise and vibration issues that some Avids have had with the clean sweep rotors. I run them with the organic pads on a set of '10 Elixir CR's and was surprised at how quiet they are. They are even much quieter than the Shimano rotors I was using on them before I put the new HS1 rotors on.


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## shaggybiker (Oct 6, 2011)

hartwerks said:


> You will need to go through your LBS to contact Avid. They are very good at taking care of their customers, but they do want you to go through a dealer.
> 
> Also, the new HS1 rotors are very quiet, and seem to have gone a long way towards taking care of the noise and vibration issues that some Avids have had with the clean sweep rotors. I run them with the organic pads on a set of '10 Elixir CR's and was surprised at how quiet they are. They are even much quieter than the Shimano rotors I was using on them before I put the new HS1 rotors on.


right ...so i gotta pay my lbs labor to diagnose a problem avid alrdy knows about...called my lbs and was told it is normally around $100 labor to figure out the the problem and get it right...yes avid replaces whats needed for free but why should we have to pay a lbs labor costs for what is avids fault? Why cant we deal with them directly?


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## hartwerks (Oct 2, 2011)

You should not have to pay your LBS to "diagnose" a well-known issue. Sounds like you need to find a new LBS. A minimal fee for installing new rotors and pads and maybe a small premium for time spent talking to Avid sounds like it should be plenty (it's what I'd charge). $100 seems like a rip-off. Avid does not sell direct-to-customer, so they expect you to take it back to the place you bought it from and let them take care of you. I can understand that you want to call Avid yourself, but they just don't have the capacity to talk to every customer over the phone. Sort of like if I have issues with my truck, it's not like I can just call Chevy and ask them to take care of it...


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## doug4sail (Jan 2, 2006)

Pedalphile said:


> Do you use gold or green?


Currently running Green pads.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

still waiting for avids replacement rotors and pads to be delivered to the lbs couldnt wait so i purchased and installedsome alligator rotors with kool stop metalic pads and beded them in and as of right now no noise except for poor caliper alignment and a little rubbing but have not fully tore down some trails yet although the turkey warble is not back yet there is still some VIBRATING inthe front fork under load when hard stopping and thats what concerned me most. i also noticed during slow braking while bed in process i noticed when i brake with the front it pulsates. the STOPING POWER SEEMS TO PULSATE is this evidence that the brakes need to be REBLED or that something is wrong with the caliper?


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## shaggybiker (Oct 6, 2011)

hartwerks said:


> You should not have to pay your LBS to "diagnose" a well-known issue. Sounds like you need to find a new LBS. A minimal fee for installing new rotors and pads and maybe a small premium for time spent talking to Avid sounds like it should be plenty (it's what I'd charge). $100 seems like a rip-off. Avid does not sell direct-to-customer, so they expect you to take it back to the place you bought it from and let them take care of you. I can understand that you want to call Avid yourself, but they just don't have the capacity to talk to every customer over the phone. Sort of like if I have issues with my truck, it's not like I can just call Chevy and ask them to take care of it...


why should i have to pay an lbs anything at all for something that is avids problem? If your new chevy truck has a problem chevy covers the parts and labor...my brakes started the warble the second ride...it was professionally tuned (not by an lbs) cause it was purchased on the internet...and i trust my buddy (who is a bike technician) more then a lbs...i should have the option of correcting the problem myself at least...ive alrdy spent more the enough for the brakes in the bike purchase.


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## hartwerks (Oct 2, 2011)

shaggybiker;8630344 If your new chevy truck has a problem chevy covers the parts and labor...[/QUOTE said:


> Which any decent LBS would do if you bought the parts (or bike) there. Shops do warranty repairs at a loss since they do not get reimbursed for labor. If your buddy is a bike tech and works at a shop, he should be able to get those parts for you. You could also try contacting the shop you bought them from on the internet, and see if they can get the parts for you.
> 
> I do hate the way that many LBS's seem to feel that they are entitled to some sort of protection from internet retailers, since they "can't compete." I do think that being able to provide better services to the customer is the way that brick and mortar institutions can create an experience that the internet can't provide. However, if everyone thinks that their LBS is the place to go for free service after they buy stuff on the internet, then people are going to be disappointed...


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

hartwerks said:


> You will need to go through your LBS to contact Avid. They are very good at taking care of their customers, but they do want you to go through a dealer.
> 
> Also, the new HS1 rotors are very quiet, and seem to have gone a long way towards taking care of the noise and vibration issues that some Avids have had with the clean sweep rotors. I run them with the organic pads on a set of '10 Elixir CR's and was surprised at how quiet they are. They are even much quieter than the Shimano rotors I was using on them before I put the new HS1 rotors on.


Nice to know the HS1 rotors might be a solution as well.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

update to my xo turkey warble dilemma:

sram sent new rotors and organic pads to lbs 2 days ago n the shop bedded them in after speaking to lbs rear brake "as of now" is not displaying any problems or noises. 
front brakes after bed in still has turkey warble and violent vibration. lbs called sram and they said it might be TOO MUCH braking power so they are gonna send a smaller rotor for front this week. the brakes apparently work TOO GOOD lol


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## xmangox (Feb 20, 2009)

Easy fix for this, buy Formula R1's! Avid = garbage.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

My bike came specd out like this ( 2012 Spec Enduro Comp ) . Brakes dont feel to modulate so good, they get extremely loud when they start to gobble . Maybe its the metallic pad? As you can see i have the newer rotors but i still have the same issues as you guys.

FRONT BRAKE	Custom Avid Elixir 7 SL, hydraulic disc, alloy backed semi-metallic pad, HS-1 rotor, 200mm rotor

REAR BRAKE	Custom Avid Elixir 7 SL, hydraulic disc, alloy backed semi-metallic pad, HS-1 rotor, 180mm rotor


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## eboothjr (Oct 14, 2011)

After trying everything under the sun to silence the dreaded turkeys I contacted avid and after a short 10 minute phone call with one of there techs who said they would replace the whole brake system (Currently I have a 2011 Pitch Comp with Elixir 3r sl, Organic pads and G3 Clean sweep 203mm Front and G3 Clean Sweep 185mm rear) They sent Elixir 7, alloy backed Organic pads HS-1 rotor 200mm rotor front and HS-1 180mm rear. I average over 100 miles a week on this bike so I’m sure I will know if the problem is gone or not soon enough since the turkeys showed up at the 300 mile mark on my previous set up. Overall very happy with avid customer service and there quick and friendly service.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Maybe i need some organic pads?


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## bardynt (Oct 11, 2011)

so reading all this seems to be the fact if get new bike avoid avid breaks like the plague


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

bardynt said:


> so reading all this seems to be the fact if get new bike avoid avid breaks like the plague


It seems like just about every mfg spec's Avid. So, I go out and buy a new bike and have to replace the brakes. If the Avid's are so bad who am I going to sell the old ones to?


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

Interesting, my BB7s are so reliable with no excessive noise, a couple of guys I know switched over to Shimano after problems with current year Avid hydro brakes, as that was the recommended fix.I have stayed away from SRAM hydros and recently bought some vintage 2005 shimano XT and LX hydros both with organic pads, no problems at all.I am concentrating on buying all Shimano from now on to avoid a pain in the ass due to poor SRAM R+D.Is it just that the noise is a problem or that and poor performance?


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## wannabeswifter (Sep 13, 2009)

*ELIXIR CRs*

The Elixir CR rear brake on my 2011 Trek EX9 developed the dreaded turkey howl a few days ago after about 300 miles on the bike. Applying the brake for a few seconds would cause the entire frame to vibrate. I quickly found this thread and learned a lot. I did 2 things. I noticed that one pad engaged the rotor before the other and deflected the rotor, so I 
realigned the calipers.Secondly, I rolled the bike backwards and applied the rear brake several times in case there was any toe-in going on. Went out on a ride today and all quiet. I hope it lasts.


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## Loz2e (Sep 16, 2011)

Loz2e said:


> My ELIXIR 3's have the same problem.........it's very anoying, have e-mailed Chain Reaction Cycles with problem (Vitus Zircon 1 still under warranty) will let you know.
> :rant:


This is the reply....
Hi Laurence,

Thanks for the email.

Brake squeal is not covered under warranty as it is a characteristic of the brake and not a sign that there is a manufacturing defect. Avid brakes are often reported to be loud under braking especially when they get wet and dirty. Under normal, dry and clean conditions my experience is that Avid brakes can still be noisy!

I have two different sets of Avid brakes (one*budget and one high end)*and have had brake squeal problems with both. I have had little success in stopping this noise but the following has helped in the short term:

Remove wheel from bike and clean braking surface using brake parts cleaner (available from 'auto' shops and used on motor vehicle brakes)
Ensure the rotor is true
Ensure the caliper is aligned properly and that the rotor does not rub on the pads when the wheel rotates
Ensure pad surface is*clean
Brake hard and deliberately, try not to drag the brake which can cause the pad surface to glaze.
I have tried all of the above and it seems to help in the short term but unfortunately*brake squeal just seems to part of some Avid brakes it seems.

*

Thanks,


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## PimpinD (May 29, 2008)

I got a set of 2012 X0 brakes on my 2011 Yeti Asr5c build... with the new HS1 rotors... and well guess what... 

They screatch and gobble like mad... 

Has anyone dealt with this on the 2012 model line yet?


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## Dantley (Feb 6, 2004)

After I couldn't take the screeching and vibration on my Juicy 7's( rear ) I read many of these posts. I took the rotor off the bike and sanded it down on my stationary 7 x 21 belt sander. I took quite a bit of material off of both sides and was surprised to see a groove worn in the rotor by the pads. Must have been when I wore down the pads out at Henry Coe one day. For those of you that never had the pleasure of riding Coe, the best way to describe it is like this. There are uphills even on the down hills. Lots of climbing and descending at Coe. Anyhow, the brakes stopped screeching and the vibration stopped after sanding. I've been out twice and plan on going out again today. As a back up I sent away for an alligator rotor, just in case the vibration starts again.


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## Hardtail 355 (Oct 19, 2011)

PimpinD said:


> I got a set of 2012 X0 brakes on my 2011 Yeti Asr5c build... with the new HS1 rotors... and well guess what...
> 
> They screatch and gobble like mad...
> 
> Has anyone dealt with this on the 2012 model line yet?


I installed some '12 Code Rs with the HS1 rotors front and rear and not one peep out of them.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Sadly, after a few months on the HSX's, the rear brake is back to gobbling like crazy.
My LBS just ordered me a set of Magura MT8's (he even beat the best price I could find on the web).
I won't miss the noise, the fickleness of the setup, or the constant need to bleed.


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

update: after about 40 miles on the 12" xo brakeset that have the dreaded turkeys they have not returned yet. sram replaced the front brakes from the lever down to the calper and changed to organic brakepads on both brakes i am also using alligator rotors as recommended. hopefully it does not return.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Good to hear. My buddies at the bike shop said alot of Spesh bike are being sold, where the buyer is changing the brakes from Avid to another brand, before the bike even leaves the shop.

The alligators are really nice rotors. I've raced them for 2 years now, original pair, without any issues.

I'm using Juicy ultimates with elixer calipers, serrated rotors, organic pads, no issues.


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## Dirtscience (Sep 23, 2006)

mtnbkrdr98 said:


> Taking your advice I called SRAM at 312-664-8800, explained the Juicy 3's that came on my bike are squealing/howling/vibrating, etc. The rep, I think name was Jeff immediately told me they have a warranty fix with a special rotor/pad combo, and to call my dealer to order it.
> 
> Spoke with my helpful dealer and apparently there was a manufacturing defect in some rotors, or at least that was part of the problem, and looks like Avid is correcting the issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. My juicy 3's have been driving me crazy for 4 months


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## eboothjr (Oct 14, 2011)

eboothjr said:


> After trying everything under the sun to silence the dreaded turkeys I contacted avid and after a short 10 minute phone call with one of there techs who said they would replace the whole brake system (Currently I have a 2011 Pitch Comp with Elixir 3r sl, Organic pads and G3 Clean sweep 203mm Front and G3 Clean Sweep 185mm rear) They sent Elixir 7, alloy backed Organic pads HS-1 rotor 200mm rotor front and HS-1 180mm rear. I average over 100 miles a week on this bike so I'm sure I will know if the problem is gone or not soon enough since the turkeys showed up at the 300 mile mark on my previous set up. Overall very happy with avid customer service and there quick and friendly service.


So here's my update on my turkey problem . After receiving my replacements from sram I only got about 2 weeks with good results before my rear shock some how just stopped holding pressure and sounded like grit or sand during the stroke so back to my LBS where they were not helpful at all as they seem to be more about selling then fixing bikes (this bike was purchased from them new in sept. of this year) so after dealing with another shop i got it replaced (and believe it or not i think this shock has a problem as well) and I was able to get back on the bike and still no turkeys but  a new problem i now have is the same sound as exmonk in his video (post #758) well that's all it took for me to be done with avid and i went out and bought a new set of Shimano XT's so hopefully that's the end of the turkeys and howling when it comes to brakes in my life!


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Going to give the organic pads a try...The alligator rotors look like they'd reduce braking surface area to me and I'm already on 160mm rotors...

Edit: First ride with the organic pads has been quiet after they set in. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## mattnoel (Dec 17, 2011)

*Thanks!*



Dirtscience said:


> Thanks for posting this. My juicy 3's have been driving me crazy for 4 months


My wife and I both have Juicy 7s, and they both make a lot of noise. Even more annoying, my wife's rear brakes rub on one side of the rotor, and I've adjusted them out as much as I can. Do I need to shim out the rotor or what?


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

mattnoel said:


> ...Even more annoying, my wife's rear brakes rub on one side of the rotor, and I've adjusted them out as much as I can. Do I need to shim out the rotor or what?


You probably need to free up a sticky piston so the caliper will work when centered. Moving it farther out is just a short term bandaid that does not correct the underlying problem.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

*Hi, my name is Adam, and I have Turkey Gobble.*

Haahaha..like an AA meeting here! Just picked up a new Specy SJ EVO 29 HT w/Avid Elixir 7 SLs....second ride they started howling and gobbling/vibrating and haven't quit. I have re-aligned the calipers a few times and cleaned the rotors. Will take it back to the shop this week, but I have a set of Clark Organic BB7 pads that only have a few rides on them; thinking of tossing them in to see. This seems to be a fix according to some of the posts. I guess my big question is the obvious...what exactly causes this? I see lots of fixes, but what is the root cause? Obviously Avid knows as they seem to be fixing it, but how do they fix it exactly? Tying fishing weights to your bike....really?

Thanks,


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## chrisscrubz (Oct 13, 2011)

its been bout a month n a half n riding approx 5-10 miles 4x a week n lil to no problem. still a very slight vibration in front fork when brakeing under load but not a serious problem n no noise what so ever. my so far fix: front caliper replacement from sram. alligator rotors n organic pads. love theese alligator rotors they will b my product of choice from now on


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Haahaha..like an AA meeting here! I guess my big question is the obvious...what exactly causes this? I see lots of fixes, but what is the root cause? Obviously Avid knows as they seem to be fixing it, but how do they fix it exactly? Tying fishing weights to your bike....really?
> 
> Thanks,


Read the entire post it in the beginning :cornut:


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## Philsilva (Oct 19, 2011)

Are we really saying that Avid are a system which is an immediate 'swap out' to a decent braking system??? My new Specialized has Avids and I would be very surprised to find that a decent bike make like S have a braking system which they expect me to change immediately!

My bike shop is constantly telling me its down to my bad cleaning practice and contaminating the brakes with oil. Well I guess I have to take their word for that (I'm a casual X trail rider) but do I just take it on the chin now?

Many have mentioned Avids great customer service but I'm in the UK and a phone call to the US may cost more than a new system lol


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## bwalton (May 9, 2006)

The root cause is a sticky piston. Apply a thin coat of silicone brake prep. grease to the piston seal before you press the piston back into its cylinder. The silicone grease will keep the piston seal(s) well lubricated and act as a temporary dust shield, which will prevent brake dust and grime from working its way back under the seal for a few years. Of course you will need to rebuild the caliper in order to accomplish this. Before you rebuild the caliper, get the brake warrantee at your LBS or remove the wheel and the brake pads, vacuum the dust off the inside of the caliper and wipe the excess off with a rag dampened with isopropyl alcohol. While looking in-between the caliper squeeze the brake lever one time and observe which piston moves out and which one is siege and or retracts back after you release the lever. Push both pistons back into their bore with a tire lever and repeat the process one more time. If both pistons move out when you squeeze the lever than you lucked out and fixed the sticky piston. If not than some people have luck with spraying a little bit of silicone oil into the pistons bore to lubricate and dislodge the obstruction. More than likely the silicone spray will not work and the caliper will need to be rebuilt in which case I would strongly recommend having you LBS swap out the entire brake if your bike is still under warrantee.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

What is silicone prep grease?


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

I'll expose my case here...

The bike: Cannondale rush 6, original setup with Avid BB5 brakes. 
Nice performance, annoying adjustability, inner pad rubbing really often. Vibration in rear brake under bigger than normal stress... Upgraded to Avid Juicy 3.5's. It all was sweet while i made light XC. Discovered an awesome circuit near home, and started doing a bit heavier XC. Faster singletracking, a lot of switchbacks, u-turns, ups and downs.... great place. So, rear brake started vibrating awfully when going fast, and needing to give a hard touch to the rear in switch backs, or adjusting speed before a drop.... MAde homework and had some investigation.... callipers centered. Clean pads. Clean discs. No warping. No toed-in pads. Brake system with only a couple months on it.So took my dremel tool, and beveled all sharp edges in the discs outer and inned diameter. Made everything really smooth.... Thing improved for 30 minutes. Next ride in my recently discovered biking paradise. Even started tinkering with setup and alignement and any possible variable while doing laps in the circuit. No healing. 

So went with Alligator discs. and same exact symptom. 

Today i noticed a tiny little scratch along the whole disc, and seems like the calliper needs a bit of shimming, given the disc arms are rubbing too much against the pads, and the arms originally didn't have the same finish as the braking surface. It might be a bit of resonace due to vibration originated by the "rough" finish the discs arms have?

I'll shim it tomorrow and give it a try. Next step will be trying organic pads. 

Front brake also vibrates but only under really hard stuff. Same disc, same calliper, on Fox F100 RL/OB.

Will write back in a couple of days with more news.

By the way... how am i supposed to upload images?


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

Got it guys...

These are my original Before/after original G2CS discs, and my actual Alligators...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Shop will take care of it - they called Avid and they will send out pads/rotors. Need to bed-in properly this time. I picked the bike up and rode it - I probably hosed the rotors/pads on the first downhill section. Gotta love a good LBS!


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

Well.... shimmed the thing with two thin washers... don't know wexactly the thickness i used. The symtoms are the same, though the discs arms are no longer rubbed out by the pads. 

I'm trying out the LBS deal, but here in argentina is quite hard to have warranty working in 2012 with 2010 brakes bought in 2011...

So, next and last step, is going organic. Hopefully will work. If not, i'll have to deal with it since my mtb budget is quite reduced this year...

good luck everyone!


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

I finally had a chance to take my pugsley out in the snow today. When I swapped out my Xx's for MT8's, I had put the HSX rotors onto the pug. The Elixir 5 brakes had been gobbling like crazy, but now with the HSX there's no more gobble.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, I have sweet silence now! I replaced my rotors with Alligator Serrations front and rear from Pricepoint, followed the procedure that MotorJeff recommended (using some sort of brake glue to adhere the pads to the spring), and then bedded the pads in. BAM! They are silent. Before, during the bed-in, they would start to vibrate and get noisy..now silence. YES!!!!!! I am excited to ride Thursday and put them to true test. This is with Avid Elixir 7 SLs on a '12 Stumpy EVO 29 HT.


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## kapton (Apr 15, 2012)

My new Superfly has the dreaded rear vibration / gobble. It seems scrapping the Avids are the only surefire way to ensure I get rid of the problem. I'm leaning towards picking up some XTRs tomorrow.


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

*Turkeys got me too.*

I've got a 2012 Camber 29 with Elixir 3s, and I got a the turkey in the rear and more of a whine in the front. Neither would be so bad if it wasn't for the vibration. I told the LBS about it when I took it in for the 30 day tuneup, and they didn't do a thing. In fact, it got worse after that. The bike is almost 2 months old, and after waiting a decade plus to get a quality bike, this is pretty frustrating. I cleaned, sanded, and rebedded the rears, but it didn't do a thing.

What would you do next? Go back to the LBS? Call Avid or Specialized?

I can't afford a new brake system. I could barely afford the bike. I'm leaning towards just buying some of those Alligator rotors and hoping for the best.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Mr. Quint, just do what I said I did in my post above, its worth $45 and an hour of your time, I promise.


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## monochrome (Nov 26, 2004)

Well, after testing by tapping the rotor with my fingernail and listening carefully for vibration, I've found the source.

On my Elixir CR's anyway, the source is the pad return spring vibrating on the spindle bolt.
I can verify by pressing my finger against the pad tops/spring and tapping the rotor.
With my finger pressed hard against the pad tops - no buzz.
Take my finger off and it buzzes like crazy.

A little tricky to test but I'm thinking of wrapping the spindle bolt in PTFE tape so it's still relatively slippery but kills the metal on metal contact.

Funnily enough, the front is fine.
Go figure.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Mono - try the brake quiet goop on the pads where the spring contacts it. Also, put some on the area of the pads where the bolt passes through, it will shut it right up!


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

Mr.Quint said:


> I've got a 2012 Camber 29 with Elixir 3s, and I got a the turkey in the rear and more of a whine in the front. Neither would be so bad if it wasn't for the vibration. I told the LBS about it when I took it in for the 30 day tuneup, and they didn't do a thing. In fact, it got worse after that. The bike is almost 2 months old, and after waiting a decade plus to get a quality bike, this is pretty frustrating. I cleaned, sanded, and rebedded the rears, but it didn't do a thing.
> 
> What would you do next? Go back to the LBS? Call Avid or Specialized?
> 
> I can't afford a new brake system. I could barely afford the bike. I'm leaning towards just buying some of those Alligator rotors and hoping for the best.


You need to take the bike back to your LBS and have them order parts from Sram under warranty. Sram is aware of this issue and they will supply your LBS with organic pads and different rotors and they will also absorb the labor charges. Sometimes this works and sometimes it does not but it's worth a try before you spend any addtional money. See my journey down this path here

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/finally-solved-my-elixir-cr-problem-719435.html


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## digthemlows (Feb 5, 2012)

Question for you all.........I bought a brand new 2009 Spesh StumpJumper elite 3 weeks ago and I'm having this problem...........since it's brand new will a warranty cover?? I've tried adjusting/cleaning multiple times and am not getting rid of the turkey


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## Pedalphile (Aug 6, 2008)

digthemlows said:


> Question for you all.........I bought a brand new 2009 Spesh StumpJumper elite 3 weeks ago and I'm having this problem...........since it's brand new will a warranty cover?? I've tried adjusting/cleaning multiple times and am not getting rid of the turkey


It really depends on your LBS. Assuming you take it back to where you bought it, they should take care of you - brakes are not supposed to work this way. At a minimum, your LBS should contact Avid about the problem and see what they'll do As you may have read, a rotor and/or pad change can sometimes resolve the problem, even if the replacements are the same as orginal.

Good luck,
Pete


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## VentEnterSearch87 (Apr 3, 2012)

Juicy 3's are giving me a headache! I've had my bike about 3 weeks and about 60 miles on it and the pistons in the front and back were both sticking. I took the pads out and oiled the pistons and now they are working properly and not rubbing. But now, when I have some decent speed and lean/turn the front brake makes a tingy shimming sound. Like the rotor is contacting the pad very lightly. Is this normal? I just noticed it today when I took it for a ride on pavement. It's only been ridden on trails so I don't know if this sound has been there or is new. I have taken the front wheel off and back on to see if maybe it wasn't mounted correctly but still no luck. Suggestions?


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

Update. I brought my bike to the LBS. Luckily the surly mechanic who I don't like wasn't in tonight, and the guy who was there listened, tested the brakes, and worked on it, and now the noise is gone. The best I can say is that he futzed with it, and I didn't think to ask him what he did. First he got the rear quiet, and then the front. They told me that if it comes back, they'll start replacing parts. So I guess we'll see what happens.

The good news is, I'll be able to ride this weekend, and I thought I'd be without bike.

I'll let you know if it comes back. (I secretly suspect it will.)


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

Mr.Quint said:


> Update. I brought my bike to the LBS. Luckily the surly mechanic who I don't like wasn't in tonight, and the guy who was there listened, tested the brakes, and worked on it, and now the noise is gone. The best I can say is that he futzed with it, and I didn't think to ask him what he did. First he got the rear quiet, and then the front. They told me that if it comes back, they'll start replacing parts. So I guess we'll see what happens.
> 
> The good news is, I'll be able to ride this weekend, and I thought I'd be without bike.
> 
> I'll let you know if it comes back. (I secretly suspect it will.)


I don't want to come off as being pessimistic but what the mech most likely did was re-align the calipers. This will quiet them but only temporarily and the noise/vibration will eventually come back. Keep us posted after your ride this weekend


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh yeah, I fully expect that too.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

A re-align and some rubbing alcohol will work for about 10 minutes...as soon as they get some dust on them and heat up...GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!


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## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

I have Juicy 7's on my light trail bike. I had no problems whatsoever with them (apart from crunching the piston when pushing them in, my bad) but when I changed the front rotor (180mm) I got the wobble. I thought I had done something wrong, either damaged the piston og discpads. Changed discpads and removed the rotor, cleaned it and have run my fingers gjently over every part of it. Nothing....it appears to be in perfect condicion and is actuall brand new.

My guess is that it's a manufacturing issue with later rotors. I hope I won't eat up pads faster...


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

What sucks the most is the CR's that I had all the issue's with were hands down the best damn brakes I have ever owned (when they were working) :madman:


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

i can't remember if i posted in this long azz thread, but organic pads fixed both my elixir 5s and my wife's juicy 3s.


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## tyler71385 (Jun 8, 2011)

*Juicy 3's*



johnniewalker85 said:


> My Juicy 3s are about as noisy or maybe more noisy than the ones in the video. Still haven't figured out a fix. I might try to ride them and see if the break in.


Mine are worse on my 2011 GF x-Cal at much slower speed. I'm not sure what to do. Cleaned and sanded pads, rotors, re-centered. No complaints with the performance. G2 rotors. The only time it stops is right after they've been wet. Like soaking from washing the bike. I just got a card in the mail for a 90 day tune up. Guess I'll let LBS try their hand.


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## Wmapes (Apr 29, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> Mono - try the brake quiet goop on the pads where the spring contacts it. Also, put some on the area of the pads where the bolt passes through, it will shut it right up!


What "brake quiet goop" did you use?


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## rodrigocatelli (Apr 30, 2012)

*Brake lining*

I did all sort of things:
Changed rotors - fail
Changed Pads - fail
Cleaned everything - fail
All sort of steel\plastic washers\spacing - fail
full bleeding - fail

and - believe it or not - the problem was on the brake hose........it was affixed loosely on the frame, via aluminum clips, and vibrated alot on braking, creating pulsing on the pistons and insane vibration and squealing.
I just Cut down some rubber "pads" from a old tube, tossed the aluminum clips, and affixed the hose firmely with zip-ties over the cut-down rubber pieces.....no more squealing.

Sorry for the poor english!.....I'm from Brazil


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## scottie mac (Nov 3, 2011)

I finally got my Aligator rotors on yesterday, recleaned everything with alcohol, lightly sanded the pads, reapplied the CRM brake goop and bedded in again. 

SILENCE. Went for a two hour ride after allowing ample time for the brake system to cool down and not a peep. I feel like I have a new bike now. Here is the rundown:

1 - Aligator Rotors from Pricepoint.com
2 - CRM Brake Quiet from Advanced 
3 - remove pads and backing plate from calipers
4 - clean calipers with rubbing alcohol
5 - lightly sand pads
5 - clean pads and backing plate with rubbing alcohol
6 - use CRM on the backing plate to glue pads
7 - remount pads and plate into caliper
8 - remove calipers from frame, add small rubber O ring under mounting spacers (between spacers and frame itself)
9 - remount calipers and align with rotors
10 - bed in new rotors/pads

Works like a charm.

Scottie


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

I did what i thought was the sensible option and sell my Elixir 5's for some XT M785's.


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## badabing (Sep 22, 2011)

After much cleaning, adjusting, aligning (repeat), and finally a bunch of reading online, my last ditch effort was to try the Alligator Rotors with new organic pads for my Elixir 9's. I cleaned everything again and did the bed in process. Two rides in, no noise and better brake feel. So far, so good - hopefully it stays that way or the elixir's are gone!


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## badabing (Sep 22, 2011)

Update - the warble is back in the rear brake after about 60 miles. Avid is garbage. I think its time to replace withe some XTR's.


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## natzx7 (May 30, 2007)

I gave up. I bought the bike with brand new elixir 3s, but it had Shimano rotors. Bled, put on organic pads, and sprung for the HSX1 rotors, cleaned, aligned, noise came back. I can live with it right now, but I'm in the market for something else. The noise comes after about 20-30 minutes of riding with moderate to heavy braking.


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

natzx7 said:


> I gave up. I bought the bike with brand new elixir 3s, but it had Shimano rotors. Bled, put on organic pads, and sprung for the HSX1 rotors, cleaned, aligned, noise came back. I can live with it right now, but I'm in the market for something else. The noise comes after about 20-30 minutes of riding with moderate to heavy braking.


Yep in most case's this is the only option. Between my LBS, Sram, and my own attempts we tried everything but nothing would resolve the issue. My LBS was really cool and swapped out the CR's for a set of XT's and I have never looked back.

I'm a Sram fan boy as I run full groups on my 29er (less the brakes) and on my road bike as well but they need to put some serious R&D into there brakes

Oh well if nothing else your now a disk brake expert just like me and now know more about them than you ever wanted to


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

*the turkeys return*



Mr.Quint said:


> Update. I brought my bike to the LBS. Luckily the surly mechanic who I don't like wasn't in tonight, and the guy who was there listened, tested the brakes, and worked on it, and now the noise is gone. The best I can say is that he futzed with it, and I didn't think to ask him what he did. First he got the rear quiet, and then the front. They told me that if it comes back, they'll start replacing parts. So I guess we'll see what happens.
> 
> The good news is, I'll be able to ride this weekend, and I thought I'd be without bike.
> 
> I'll let you know if it comes back. (I secretly suspect it will.)


The wobble came back, as we knew it would. My bike is a 2012, but I think it's really mostly a 2011. I brought it in, and they're going to replace the rotors and pads, etc. etc., but they're on back order for a couple weeks. (probably because everyone else is having the same damn problem.) So they adjusted it in the meantime, and got rid of it for the moment, and I'll have my bike for a bit until it comes back.

It's not the sound that bothers me nearly as much as the shaking on the front end at times when I really need the brakes. That's a confidence buster.

I asked if they, as a Specialized dealer, have seen this a lot, since it's clearly an issue, and the one guy didn't think so, but another mech looked at my brakes, and said "Yup, these are the old ones with the problem." Oh well. Sucks for me.


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## beerguitar69 (Nov 5, 2011)

I have about 70 miles on my elixir cr. Gobble, gobble, gobble all the time. After reading all the complaints about them, I ordered some hayes stroker aces. I bed them in and i still have the gobble. My next step is to re-tension the spokes and see if that helps.


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## irv_usc (Mar 16, 2011)

I wanted to update and confirm that the alligator rotors fixed my gobble issue.

My bike had the avid 185mm rotor up front so I had to buy a 180mm adapter with the rotors.


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

I read over the weekend that Sram is going to a new system of mounting and will eliminate the CPS bolt/washer setup. Although there are many theories on why the brakes make noise in my opinion I feel this is the main culprit.


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## irv_usc (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm pretty sure it's the rotor design having a resonance with the bike.

My friend switched to XTR calipers with old avid rotors and still has the gobble.


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## nov0798 (Nov 27, 2005)

pamt said:


> I read over the weekend that Sram is going to a new system of mounting and will eliminate the CPS bolt/washer setup. Although there are many theories on why the brakes make noise in my opinion I feel this is the main culprit.


You can do this yourself!


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## turquoise (Jul 25, 2011)

My brakes were fine until I shortened the cable which introduced air into the line. The front is still relatively quiet (185) but the rear (160) started to shriek immediately after I shortened the hose. I didn't have a bleed kit so hopefully it will go away when the shop does the bleed. It makes sense that air in the line would allow the pads to vibrate. I'll report back after the bleed. BTW, these are elixir cr.


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## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2011)

I support PAMT's opinion that it's the CPS bolts/washers. I've got Elixir 3's on my 2011 Giant Trance. Within 10 miles of new it was howling. I adjusted the calipers a dozen times, cleaned and sanded everything with no improvement. I installed the Avid solid rotor. It helped for 15 minutes and then the noise came back.
Meanwhile, the Hayes brakes on my wife's bike haven't made a sound. They just use solid spacers at the calipers. 
I replaced my CPS spherical washers with stacked flat washers. The caliper alignment worked out fine. Noise is all gone. I haven't had a peep in 30 miles. I suspect the spherical washers allow more caliper deflection when the brakes are applied.


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## natzx7 (May 30, 2007)

Bought the bike with brand new Elixir 3s with shimano rotors. Gobbled like crazy. Didnt like the harsh feedback through the lever. Although they worked well, Had no confidence in the brakes and hated the racket.
Aligned.
Bled.
Sprung for HSX-1 rotors (not cheap)
bought avid organic pads ( $60 at LBS)
still gobbled after they warmed up.
Found the fix, should have just done this from the beginning.:madman:


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## KGAmoto (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm on my second bike that came OEM with Avid Juicy 3s. 

Hated them immediately on my previous bike and put some old XT Deore BRM525s on it (which are great actually, but heavy). 

With my current Reign; same thing. The brakes make a sound and more than that, there is a choppy feeling at the lever. And they fade, ... terrible brakes. 

So it sounds like the Avids in general just aren't up to par? I had the thought to buy some Elixir 5s or CRs (good deals around), but is that a bad idea?


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## EMrider (Sep 9, 2007)

I've got avid juicy 5s on one bike and elixr 5s on another. Both are so noisy that any sense of relaxation and solitude I'd otherwise enjoy while riding is replaced with irritation. 

I was just about to go for the XTs, when a friend suggested trying the avid bb7s. After much reading, the simplicity and favorable reviews tipped me in favor of the bb7s. 

Great move. The design and adjustability of the bb7s are excellent and I've enjoyed silence on my rides since installing them. The braking power is surprisingly good too.

Lesson of the day, not all avid products are garbage.

R


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## mazspeed (Oct 17, 2004)

I also have the dreaded vibration problem in the rear of my HD. I am running 203 discs on hope brakes. The disc is a shamino xt brake, not ice tech. Would a Ti alligator disc fix this issue? I have the older mono 4 with ebc red pads. When I ride the trails over 14mph they hum and make noise, but if I keep just a touch of finger pressure on the brake lever putting very light pressure on the disc, it goes away, but I obviously don't want to ride this way. What's the best fix? Are my discs too big at 203 in the rear? Thanks in advance.


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## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I THINK I know what's happened. Won't fix anything, but at least I gave it some thinking 

1. First rotors that came with the bike did NOT wobble, only squeal like "normal" Juicy's

2. These were either made at a) different plant/facility or different manufacturing process than the others who wobble.

3. Made manufacturers save money (and time or both) by advancing manufacturing process, sometimes they find smarter ways to make things and sometimes they just cut corners. When phasing out a product, this doesn't matter that much.

4. Removing the G2 rotor and running my nimble fingers across it, I can feel a raised area around the holes for cooling the rotor down. This was NOT that noticeable on my other rotors. This SHOULD be sorted out when you wear the rotor down, but they are still there. It's like the walls of the holes have been hardened. They are still there after quite a bit of use. The main rotor area is starting to wear down, but this edge is not.

5. My guess, sticking a finger in my mouth and putting it up in the air, is that the extruding of these wholes has gone wrong. Perhaps too much force and/or heat has tempered the area? Or something related to this process has done something.

6. My guess is that this annoying wobble, will also wear down pads faster, eating away at them rather then grinding them down.


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## Big_Games (Mar 28, 2012)

2 weeks into ridding my new bike I started to get that annoying squealing sound from my Juicy 3's... Only in the front break. I also hear a metal pinging sound sometimes. Plan on taking it in to the LBS later this week to see if they can come up with a solution to getting rid of the squealing sound. Other than the noise the brakes seem to work fine... The noise is just starting to really annoy me.


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## AlienRFX (Sep 27, 2006)

I replaced the stock pads on my Juicy Sevens with some ceramic pads from DiscoBrakes.com. Here in Ga with rollercoaster like trails with plenty of dust and the occasional stream crossing they have been silent for the past 100 miles. I dig em and the price is right. Though the probably will wear faster than the factory metalic pads.

With the factory pads the brakes just squealed occasionally untill you got plenty of heat in em, no turkey gobble though.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

I have two bikes (FS 29er & HT 29er) with Elixer 3 brakes and have quieted or silenced both by:
1) Replacing CPS washers with stacks of flat washers
2) Replacing Avid rotors with Alligator Serration rotors
3) Replacing Avid pads with Disco semi-metallic pads.

I still have a little squealing and some noticeable shuddering with the front brake of the HT 29er, but I suspect that has more to do with the Recon Silver fork.


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## Sebastian78 (Aug 25, 2010)

Big_Games said:


> 2 weeks into ridding my new bike I started to get that annoying squealing sound from my Juicy 3's... Only in the front break. I also hear a metal pinging sound sometimes. Plan on taking it in to the LBS later this week to see if they can come up with a solution to getting rid of the squealing sound. Other than the noise the brakes seem to work fine... The noise is just starting to really annoy me.


Important to properly identify the correct "noise" on your Jucy'sand put it in the right box :

1) Squeel : This is "normal" noise. Get's worse when brakes are wet
a) Re-align the caliper
b) Check for pad-wear
c) This is normal....but it sux

2) Wobble : This should not be normal (but perhaps is starting to become?)
a) Check for damage to the rotor
b) Check for damage to pads
c) Re-align the caliper
d) Are you running original parts in the above? Contact Avid
e) Run very fine grain sandpaper over the cooling vents/holes in the rotor (PS: you are wearing them down)
f) Clean the rotor with isopropanol (alcohol)
g) Replace pads
h) Bleed the brakes

Check after each step. My guess is the wobble is from manufacturing defaults to rotors and squeal takes perfection to minimize....

PS: Perhaps testing another brand of rotors might solve the problem?


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Sebastian78 said:


> Important to properly identify the correct "noise" on your Jucy'sand put it in the right box :
> 
> 1) Squeel : This is "normal" noise. Get's worse when brakes are wet
> a) Re-align the caliper
> ...


I did all the above with some success. Then I used the Swiss Stop Brake Silencer with 100% success for 6 rides. Now the wobble is back slightly. Anyone have success with this stuff? SwissStop Disc Brake Silencer - YouTube


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I have two bikes with Juicy 3s and one with an Elixer 5. 

Blasting the calipers and wiping down the rotors with brake cleaner during the break in phase has kept them quiet for the last 3-4 years.

Occasionally blasting them the same during the season keeps sticky pistonitis away.


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## uh yeah (Jun 14, 2012)

^^this


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

Got my Alligators installed. The wobble is gone, but I've got a hell of a rub in the front. One thing after another.

I'm taking donations for XT brakes if anyone's feeling charitable.


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## pamt (May 28, 2009)

Mr.Quint said:


> Got my Alligators installed. The wobble is gone, but I've got a hell of a rub in the front. One thing after another.
> 
> I'm taking donations for XT brakes if anyone's feeling charitable.


The Alligators will somewhat mask the Avid problem but when I tried this solution I was running organic pads and due to the not very refined finish on Alligators I completely destroyed the pads within a month.

It's unfortunate but ultimately you will end up with XT's and then you will not have to lay awake at night wondering what the next day will bring with the Avids.


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## pcxmbfj (Apr 7, 2006)

*Avid Juicy 7 issue*

I have an problem that goes beyond the noise because a pad eventually drops out of the caliper. 
I've lost three pads that seem to start noisy, lose braking power, then fall out before I realized what the problem was.
Can't verify but they appear to drop from the same piston each time.
Anyone else experience this?


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## chad68 (Sep 14, 2011)

Interesting thread. Will take me a couple weeks to finish reading it LOL.

I have Juicy three's on my GT Force, that have never made a peep. I just picked up a Cannondale hardtail 29er (brand new) with the cheapest Shimano hydro brakes they make and the rear makes the horrid turkey noise and the fronts are not anywhere as bad but make it as well.


In all fairness I haven't even ridden the 29er to break the pads in yet, so time will tell. Even though the Avids on my Force do a decent job at slowing me down, I would like some stronger brakes for that bike, so I may try swapping my Avid rear over to the 29er and see if that alone makes it go away.

If that works, then I will swap the fronts over to that bike too and if that works too, then I'm getting Hope M4's all the way around on my Force! If the Hopes make noise who cares, they look bad ass.

Somehwere in the 700+ threads it was mentioned about resonant frequencies and harmonics and I feel that has something to do with it. I also think it's the type of pads. The Cannondale calls for resin pads only and I'm assuming that;s what they used. I think metalics or semi metalics would turkey warble less but could have higher pitched noises, maybe. I would rather have that then this turkey noise. I swear it feels like it would ratlle the welds apart on the frame.

I see coasster brakes making a comeback LOL.

PS

As also mentioned I would love to see what a solid, no holes, no cutout slats, other than the mounting bolt holes in the rotor would do. I think due to the natural thinness of bike rotors, that the thinness and all of the cutouts in the rotors, add to the harmonic BS problem.


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## Jeepnut22 (Jul 16, 2008)

Best solution:

Step 1: Craigslist your Avid brakes
Step 2: Buy XTs or XTRs
Step 3: Never worry about your brakes again (aside from normal maintenance)


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

I now agree, though SLX brakes are a good choice too. I just replaced the Elixir 3 set that was giving me the most trouble with an SLX set and it's a night and day difference. Easy installation, great braking and modulation and virtually silent, even under reasonably hard braking.


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## turquoise (Jul 25, 2011)

I got a bleed done (needed it anyway). As expected it didn't fix the squeal, but I just put on a new wheelset and the awful screeching is gone! The freehub was loose and that's most likely what was causing the honking. Anyway, I take back all those awful things I said about Avid. I still have a intermittent stuck piston on the front that I'm not happy about. BTW, these are '10 Elixir CR.

*Update - Sadly, it's still screeching. The first ride with the new wheels was with a Burley trailer which must be changing the dynamics of the frame such that is doesn't permit the screech. Back to hating Avid*

I talked to the mechanic who did the bleed and he said a few interesting things: 1. Avids are more prone to squeal due to design than other brands, but his has seen all brands squeal. 2. The same brake that squeals can be put on another bike and be quiet. 3. Sometimes a new brake will fix the squeal. 4. Avid/SRAM customer support is excellent (I guess for bike shops not consumers). 5. XTs are the best (obviously an opinion but I hear this from every mech. I talk to).


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Jeepnut22 said:


> Best solution:
> 
> Step 1: Craigslist your Avid brakes
> Step 2: Buy XTs or XTRs
> Step 3: Never worry about your brakes again (aside from normal maintenance)


This was the only procedure that cured me of Avid noise, uneven pistons, pad drag, excessive bleeding and mudderf'ing cps washers.


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## Mr. Lynch (Jun 11, 2010)

On my two bikes I had Elixir Rs and Juicy 3s. I swapped to 2012 XT and Deore brakes and all the noises and issues disappeared, even though I still have the G3 rotors on both bikes. The Avid issues are definitely with the pistons. They seem to be prone to sticking on one side which causes all sorts of issues.


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## chad68 (Sep 14, 2011)

Finally got to take the new Cannondale 29er out today. Even though the turkeys sounded loud and vibrated horrible pushing the bike around by hand, when riding the bike, the only time the noise or vibes appear, is when I am 99.9% stopped, like pushing it around by hand at a snails pace, almost literly a snails pace.

The rear already sounds better and vibrates waaaay less. Maybe they will get even quieter, with more miles and bedding in, as I only did 10 miles on flat ground. The rears locked the 1.90 slick on dry flat pavement, which was impressive since I'm like 270. Locking the rear kinda goes against beddding in rules but I had to try anyway. 

I'm probablly going to get hopes on my FS GT anyway and use the others as spares or use them on the Cannondale.


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## arigo (Sep 26, 2008)

*Can this problem have a solution ?*

I have Juicy 5 on my stumpjumper 08, and the rear brakes makes the horrid turkey noise and a terrible vib to all the bike and my body.
Just changed the rotor and Pads to AVID G2 and its as bad it was (and much hotter to the pads) 
:madman: Except sale the bike /or the brakes is there anything else to do ?


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

I just got a new bike with 2012 Elixir 7's and HS1 discs. Guess what noise they make?

Not even 1 proper ride on them and they are already off the bike and up for sale with some pretty XT's sitting in their place looking and stopping absolutely awesome.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm starting to think that Shimano should give Avid a big thank you for boosting the sales of Shimano brakes.


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## arigo (Sep 26, 2008)

I think you are right ! i tried everything except exchange to shimano SLX or XT


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

*2012 XX w/ HSX rotors*

Mine gobbled badly. But I found a fix, at least for my setup.

Took a Dremel tool and put a very small chamfer on all leading edges of the rotor that contact the brake pad. Basically just broke the edges, not even visible to the naked eye. Gobble gone.


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## arigo (Sep 26, 2008)

Can you show a picture of that ? was diff to understand


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

pamt said:


> The Alligators will somewhat mask the Avid problem but when I tried this solution I was running organic pads and due to the not very refined finish on Alligators I completely destroyed the pads within a month.
> 
> It's unfortunate but ultimately you will end up with XT's and then you will not have to lay awake at night wondering what the next day will bring with the Avids.


My Alligators completely solved the problem but like you, I ate through my pads in a few months. At some point, I may have to consider just going to XTs.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

arigo said:


> I think you are right ! i tried everything except exchange to shimano SLX or XT


Switching to SLX with IceTech rotors did the trick for me recently. Can't say enough good things about them. Easy install. No gobble. Fantastically simple reach-adjustment.

The pad gap must be wider too. I had much less trouble getting the rotor to spin freely between the SLX pads than with my Avids. In fact, I had no trouble at all. Everything worked on the first go.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Electric tape works too. Unbelievable, but true Story - Avid Brake Turkey Warble


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## Gridlocked (Apr 6, 2011)

bing! said:


> Electric tape works too. Unbelievable, but true Story - Avid Brake Turkey Warble


Puh, was just about to order a new disc for my Avid front brake.
I'll give this a go first, cheap fix if it works :thumbsup:


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## arigo (Sep 26, 2008)

Is it about the cable curves or what ?
need someone from hidraulic sys to explain how it can happen ?


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## jyeager (Nov 30, 2006)

It's so sad to hear about everyone leaving Avids and going to Shimano or another manufacturer.
You see, the turkey gobble is designed in to the system to be an attention grabbing feedback mechanism. It reminds you that braking makes you a slower rider and that staying off your brakes more is the key to being a faster rider.

Hate the turkey gobble? That was the point. If you hear it, you shouldn't be braking! Of course, now I will have to put up with more of you getting fast and beating me at the races....


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## spistols (Dec 28, 2008)

Had I read this thread 2 weeks ago, I certainly would not have ordered and installed my Elixir 5s'. I have to carry my rifle now, as my turkey call attracts too many birds! I like one of the posts above, goodbye Avids through CL and hello Shimano!!!


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## Mr. Lynch (Jun 11, 2010)

It seems like eveyone i know has switched from Elixir to Shimano or Magura.


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## arigo (Sep 26, 2008)

1. AVID response was - "_It happen on stiff frames (specialized and trek)"_ does it happen on others too ?
2. I blame specialized too cause they combine the product all together - so it's like a recall in a car manufactor
Frankly i dont care about the noise only the Vibration that change the buke control during braking !


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

SRAM/Avid saying that it only happens on stiff frames is a poor excuse. All frames are stiff no? Every year manufacturers drop weight and increase stifness so that's not going to change. 

Plus, that's like saying that new car of yours should make a grinding noise when you have more than one person in it. Bull crap. The product should be built and tested for all users and their situations. 

No idea who at SRAM went, "yeah brakes work but make an awful noise in some conditions". Tick box approved!


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## Mr. Lynch (Jun 11, 2010)

Im 90% certain the noise is due to sticky pistons that dont put the pads out equally. The Elixirs on my buddies bike was making the noise and we found only 1 side was pushing out. We cleaned and "unstuck" the piston and all the vibration went away. The same thing happened on my wife's FSRxc with Juicy 3s.


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## amor587 (Dec 9, 2004)

If you have the goble/garble it may be worth reading this thread, may work or may not but simple enough to give it a go.....

Unbelievable, but true Story - Avid Brake Turkey Warble


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## Sickmak90 (May 27, 2012)

I started getting the turkey gobble on my juicy 3s recently. The bike is three years old, and as far as I know everything is original. The original owner barely rode the bike because it was to large for him. I've put a bunch of miles on it since I got it. 

Maybe it's time to bleed the brakes and do some other maintenance.


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

Sickmak90 said:


> I started getting the turkey gobble on my juicy 3s recently. The bike is three years old, and as far as I know everything is original. The original owner barely rode the bike because it was to large for him. I've put a bunch of miles on it since I got it.
> 
> Maybe it's time to bleed the brakes and do some other maintenance.


Or take the brakes off the bike and hit them with a big stick.


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## robin640 (Feb 26, 2012)

The first attempt by the Specialize Tech included adjusting / torqueing the calipers to specs, sanding the rotors / pads (w/bed-in), hitting the pads with brake clean, isopropyl alcohol on the rotors. The second attempt to repair the Juicy 7's on my 2011 FSR StumpJumper included replacement rotors (larger diameter) / pads from Avid. The third attempt by the Specialize Tech included replacing the pads again. Seem like each fix last about 80 - 100 miles and noise comes back.

Due to the fact of a similar vibration / howling noise while cleaning the rotor with isopropyl alcohol and a rag with the wheel on the bike, the dealer / Avid is now going to replace the rear brake hose under warranty to see if this stops the noise. In the meantime, I have taped all brake and shifter cables to each contact point of the frame to see if this helps.

Note, I talked to Avid tech support and they Do Not Recommend gluing the contact spring to the pads or tightening the spokes 1/4 turn each unless they are loose.
.


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## BigKahuna (Jan 19, 2004)

My Juicy 3s made the awful noise right before the bike would stop rolling. I swapped out to some Juicy 7s and the noise is gone. The rear was the worst offender, and I even have the same rear rotor on, just a different lever/caliper...and no noise.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

robin640 said:


> The first attempt by the Specialize Tech included adjusting / torqueing the calipers to specs, sanding the rotors / pads (w/bed-in), hitting the pads with brake clean, isopropyl alcohol on the rotors. The second attempt to repair the Juicy 7's on my 2011 FSR StumpJumper included replacement rotors (larger diameter) / pads from Avid. The third attempt by the Specialize Tech included replacing the pads again. Seem like each fix last about 80 - 100 miles and noise comes back.
> 
> Due to the fact of a similar vibration / howling noise while cleaning the rotor with isopropyl alcohol and a rag with the wheel on the bike, the dealer / Avid is now going to replace the rear brake hose under warranty to see if this stops the noise. In the meantime, I have taped all brake and shifter cables to each contact point of the frame to see if this helps.
> 
> ...


The CRC Brake Quiet adhesive works regardless of what Avid says. You can keep dicking around, or just replaced your rotors with ~$20 Alligator Serration rotors, spend 10 minutes gluing your pads, and ride quiet. Your time is money; just do this fix, its worth $40 to at least try.


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## cycljunkie (Feb 6, 2004)

*My Noise/Problem...*

Brand new bike with Elixir 5 brakes (160/180). Caliper aligned, rotors sanded, properly bedded in, etc. Also tried taping the brake hose to the frame. I can reproduce the noise just riding in front of the house. Much worse on the trail. Only way to avoid the noise/vibration is to ONLY brake hard. Not really a proper solution IMHO. Thoughts, suggestions?


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

I've had good results with Squeal Out paste. I posted a brief write-up here.


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## Mr.Quint (Mar 22, 2012)

MileHighMark said:


> I've had good results with Squeal Out paste. I posted a brief write-up here.


I've applied the paste to the front brake, and it seems to be working, but I take it out on the trail tonight. If all goes well, I'll do the rear after.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

My solution for elixir 9's has been a set of new semi metalic pads as others have found from DiscoBrakes.Com :: Shop :: Disc Pads I applied copper grease to the backs of the pads, scuffed up the rotors and gave everything a good clean with muck off brake cleaner.

Bedded in the new pads with 20 high speed stops one after the other for each brake individually.

So far so good total, cost less than £20!!!! :thumbsup:

If they do squeeling again they will get thrown in the bin as it really annoys me on my new flash 29er


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

cycljunkie said:


> Brand new bike with Elixir 5 brakes (160/180). Caliper aligned, rotors sanded, properly bedded in, etc. Also tried taping the brake hose to the frame. I can reproduce the noise just riding in front of the house. Much worse on the trail. Only way to avoid the noise/vibration is to ONLY brake hard. Not really a proper solution IMHO. Thoughts, suggestions?


Cycljunkie, have you tried covering the rear of the pad with copper grease like they do with cars? I went down the new pad route for the sake of $20 worth a try?


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## cycljunkie (Feb 6, 2004)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> Cycljunkie, have you tried covering the rear of the pad with copper grease like they do with cars? I went down the new pad route for the sake of $20 worth a try?


The LBS hooked me up with a set of organic pads with aluminum backing and right away they were quiet. Haven't done an actual ride yet but my guess is that my problem should be fixed. Will post up next week after I've had a chance to ride my bike.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The solution is to get some Alligator Serration rotors from Pricepoint, organic pads, and use CRC brake Quiet to glue the pads to the retainer spring.


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## cycljunkie (Feb 6, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> The solution is to get some Alligator Serration rotors from Pricepoint, organic pads, and use CRC brake Quiet to glue the pads to the retainer spring.


Definitely my plan "B" but initially wanted to get the LBS to handle it since I just bought the bike last week. Thanks for your input!


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## breckenridge (Jul 14, 2012)

My 2012 Avid Elixir 1's with HS1 rotors have started behaving a bit oddly, but only on the front brake. When riding around more slowly and using the brakes minimally when cold, they have started making a medium-volume 'woop woop woop' squeaking sound and jiggle the front end around when coming to a stop from 15mph or so. The feeling is similar to if part of the rotor had syrup on it or something. One hard brake from speed and it goes away for the rest of the ride, but comes back the next ride each time. I followed break in procedure and the rotors are true, and dont cook the brakes down to a hard stop without releasing them. No issues from the rear brake at all. Maybe about 150 miles on the bike/brakes.


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## ArtV86 (May 5, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> The solution is to get some Alligator Serration rotors from Pricepoint, organic pads, and use CRC brake Quiet to glue the pads to the retainer spring.


Well so far the Alligator Serration rotors + organic pads did not work.

ArtV86


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## jyeager (Nov 30, 2006)

ArtV86 said:


> Well so far the Alligator Serration rotors + organic pads did not work.
> 
> ArtV86


At least with automobile disc brakes, squealing is caused by the back of the brake pads rubbing against the caliper while vibration is ocurring.

If that's the case here, then you skipped the 1 step that was really going to solve the problem. Get the brake anti-squeal compound and apply it.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

breckenridge said:


> My 2012 Avid Elixir 1's with HS1 rotors have started behaving a bit oddly, but only on the front brake. When riding around more slowly and using the brakes minimally when cold, they have started making a medium-volume 'woop woop woop' squeaking sound and jiggle the front end around when coming to a stop from 15mph or so. The feeling is similar to if part of the rotor had syrup on it or something. One hard brake from speed and it goes away for the rest of the ride, but comes back the next ride each time. I followed break in procedure and the rotors are true, and dont cook the brakes down to a hard stop without releasing them. No issues from the rear brake at all. Maybe about 150 miles on the bike/brakes.


blast the calipers and rotors with brake cleaner and wipe them down. you either have contamination somewhere in the system.


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## ArtV86 (May 5, 2009)

I haven't given up yet (though I did price some Shimano brakes).

Glue the pad to that little spring? Is that right? I don't see how that would change anything.....

Was thinking of rubber washers somewhere between the brake and the frame to try and change the frequency and separate the brake vibration from the frame.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

ArtV86 said:


> Well so far the Alligator Serration rotors + organic pads did not work.
> 
> ArtV86


Try the CRC brake adhesive, its cheap. If gluing the pads to the spring doesn't work, pass go, collect $200, and take it the shop and gets some Shimano brakes


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## ArtV86 (May 5, 2009)

I put the CRC on the brakes springs/pads today. Too early to tell if that will work because I cleaned the pads. This never was an issue with clean pads and rotors. Problem is they get dirt/dusty in about 1 minute on the trails then here come the turkey calls.

Hope to get out on the trails tomorrow. Will post the results.

ArtV


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## BigKahuna (Jan 19, 2004)

On my 2nd ride with the Juicy 7s, I got the gobble. The front end of the bike is vibrating and making the "garble, garble, garble" noise, especially under harder braking. New pads were installed at the same time as the 7's.


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## ArtV86 (May 5, 2009)

Well, I have had one ride since I completed the 'semi official fix' - alligators rotors, organic pads and CRC. On the ride I only had the noise happen two or three times which is a definitely an improvement. The verdict is still out however because recent rains have kept the trail from drying out and I think the brakes simply didn't collect any dust/dirt and I thoroughly cleaned the pads before applying the CRC.

Will give an update when I get out on the trails again.

ArtV86


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Well, if the CRC doesn't work, you are only out a few bucks. At that point, if it doesn't fix it, you need to go ahead and think about changing over to another brake system. It shut mine up 100% regardless of trail condition.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

After months, I am still enjoying vibration and noise-free braking after the CRC glue, organic pads, and Alligator rotors. Did an 18 hour race last weekend and had not a peep.


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## ArtV86 (May 5, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> After months, I am still enjoying vibration and noise-free braking after the CRC glue, organic pads, and Alligator rotors. Did an 18 hour race last weekend and had not a peep.


Sorry I am a bit late in my reply but that seems to have solved my problem as well.

ArtV


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## jyeager (Nov 30, 2006)

PimpinD said:


> I got a set of 2012 X0 brakes on my 2011 Yeti Asr5c build... with the new HS1 rotors... and well guess what...
> 
> They screatch and gobble like mad...
> 
> Has anyone dealt with this on the 2012 model line yet?


Yes. On the assumption that bikes and cars squeal for the same reason, I removed my pads and sprayed the backs with spray glue. 
Works pretty well so far.

Over time it will dry out and be rinsed out by water and will start again. I'm sure that I will be able to fins something longer lasting.


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## yourideit (Jan 18, 2009)

When I get home I'm gonna put mine in the toilet where they belong. New hopes going on!


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## likeaboss (Jan 1, 2012)

Dumped the Elixir 5s in favor of some Shimano XTR. Happy braking now in wet and dry with hardly a peep.

The wife's Eleixir 5s have now started the turkey gobble after about 50mi. She demoed a bike with SLX M666 and she loved them. Now I just have to find some.


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## Christouf (Nov 5, 2012)

I got the famous turkey warble on my Formula RX 180mm 2011 and:
- realized that my noise is called "turkey warble" ( these keywords are quite tricky to find in Google !)
- got sintered metallic pads to replace the organic ones : NOK
- sanded the pads, cleaned the rotors with alcohol : NOK
- added some shims between the caliper and the frame : NOK
- replaced the Formula rotors by Unex on front and Shimano on rear ("Resin pads only") : NOK
- and finally put a (extremely) thin film of lithium grease on the back of the pads : OK !!!

No more squealing or warbling or anything. Nothing.


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## jyeager (Nov 30, 2006)

Christouf said:


> I got the famous turkey warble on my Formula RX 180mm 2011 and:
> - realized that my noise is called "turkey warble" ( these keywords are quite tricky to find in Google !)
> - got sintered metallic pads to replace the organic ones : NOK
> - sanded the pads, cleaned the rotors with alcohol : NOK
> ...


Report back on how long that lasts. I'm not sure whether grease or the adhesive is a longer lasting solution.


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## Huskywolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Have had nothing but problems with the Avid Elixir 7's on my Stumpjumper. They howl like a banshee on the rear and have also had to warranty the rear brake system out* 3* separate times for bleeding/fading issues in a period of a month. Guys at LBS pulled Avid 7's off there demos bikes to put on mine while faulty "ones" were being sent to Avid.

LBS suggested getting some Hayes Stroker Rydes for durability.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

Huskywolf said:


> Have had nothing but problems with the Avid Elixir 7's on my Stumpjumper. They howl like a banshee on the rear and have also had to warranty the rear brake system out* 3* separate times for bleeding/fading issues in a period of a month. Guys at LBS pulled Avid 7's off there demos bikes to put on mine while faulty "ones" were being sent to Avid.
> 
> LBS suggested getting some Hayes Stroker Rydes for durability.


Dont really like my elixer 5's but have tried the following which worked. My fronts are quiet so I only did this for the rear.

1) adjusted calipers by loosening mounting bolts, squeezing brake levers, tightening bolts
This didnt do anything
2) clean pads/rotors with brake cleaner
3) sand the rotor and pads (you can find web articles on how to do this)
4) clean with brake cleaner
5) bedded them in. ~15 stops from 10mph to walking and 15 from 20mph to walking. This was hard work.

They were quiet for about 5 rides then started getting noisy again

6) put CRC disc quiet (red adhesive) on the spring and on the back of the brake pads

They have been quiet for 5 rides so far

Not sure exactly which of the things are required so I put them all in. Total cost was about $8 for brake cleaner and CRC disk quiet

If they get noisy again I might try the alligator rotors.


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## [email protected] (Sep 19, 2011)

I've always run my XX brakes with alligator rotors with no issue, but I bent my rear rotor the other day and needing a quick fix I popped the XX rotor on. Now I have this terrible turkey warble on the backend so I'm hoping when my new alligator rotor comes in it will go away. Strange that an inexpensive rotor performs much better than the pricey XX rotor.


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## Christouf (Nov 5, 2012)

> - replaced the Formula rotors by Unex on front and Shimano on rear ("Resin pads only") : NOK


In fact it was not completely NOK, the warble was much less present and happens at much slower speed, but it was still here.

I was almost satisfied with these 2 rotors from Shimano and Unex, but it was not perfect.
Now with the grease it is perfect.

Here on the french riviera we have almost never mud, then it is not necessary for me to flush my bike with pressurized water. 
That is why the grease between the pistons and the pads is not washed out and stays here.


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## randyg (Oct 13, 2004)

Christouf said:


> I got the famous turkey warble on my Formula RX 180mm 2011 and:
> - realized that my noise is called "turkey warble" ( these keywords are quite tricky to find in Google !)
> - got sintered metallic pads to replace the organic ones : NOK
> - sanded the pads, cleaned the rotors with alcohol : NOK
> ...


Mind sharing what "NOK" stands for? Assuming "Not OK"?


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## Christouf (Nov 5, 2012)

Yes "NOK" means "Not OK", or "not effective" or "did not solve the issue" in this case


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## stunt (Jan 4, 2010)

FIXED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After trying everything over the past few months, changed wheel, calliper, rotor, pads etc, etc, I was riding down a forest track yesterday evening and was able to hold a constant warble on the rear brake and started checking everything on the fly to see what was vibrating, I touched the brake hose by the seat stay with my foot and hey presto IT STOPPED!!!!!

The fix is to make sure the brake hose that leaves the rear calliper does not touch the seat stay at all, it is fine for it to be touching the chain stay. Simple as that.

As it happens it was a good job I pulled the cable away from the stays as it was making a nasty groove in them (six month old Stumpy Evo 2013)!

Hope this helps someone to get rid of their annoying buzz like it has mine.

Cheers.


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## stunt (Jan 4, 2010)

Update!!!

Not fixed :-(

Just changed the frequency and speed that vibration occurred. It is still very much there. XTs for me then!


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2013)

stunt said:


> Update!!!
> 
> Not fixed :-(
> 
> Just changed the frequency and speed that vibration occurred. It is still very much there. XTs for me then!


i was waiting for this. larger diameter rotors will also change the harmonics/frequency.


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## Levelheadsteve (Mar 2, 2010)

My Juicy 5's didn't do it for the first two years, but the warble started after that. Since then, the seals have gone bad causing the levers to return very slowly. The pads rub until the levers fully return. I tried bleeding them, but it seems I need a full rebuild.

I have XT's on the way.


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## zackando (Aug 5, 2013)

i have avid juicy 3s 2 months old the rear brake when braking hard has grinding sound and vibrations had them checked at lbs they cant see any problems any suggestions?


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## jyeager (Nov 30, 2006)

Yep, pull the pads and clean the BACK sides of the pads. Then apply a dab of grease or spray glue (both work) and reinstall.
Stops the vibration between the pads and calipers that are the source of the turkey gobble sound.
Not sure the grinding sound is an issue. Just the pad material grinding on the rotor which is why the brakes work! But you can try lightly sanding the braking surface to smooth it out and remove any contamination while they are out.


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## expat_brit (Jul 18, 2013)

SO..

2012 Trek X-Cal, bought in 2013.

Avid Elixir 1 brakes.

Front is fine; rear is LOUD and shakes the bike unpleasantly. I could live with loud, but the vibration is a bit much.

Dropped off to LBS to see what they and Avid can do, since I don't hugely like the 'go buy a set of Shimano SLX/Hope/Formula/whatever' solution unless all else fails.


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## Bruce372 (Jul 3, 2008)

just save your time and energy and buy the shimano XT...i got the 2013 on offer and never looked back!



zackando said:


> i have avid juicy 3s 2 months old the rear brake when braking hard has grinding sound and vibrations had them checked at lbs they cant see any problems any suggestions?


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## inter (Nov 27, 2010)

Mine was the front avid 1 that was noisy, no problem with vibration tho. Swapped to slx brake and rotor, silent and powerful.


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## expat_brit (Jul 18, 2013)

Avid is sending new rotor and organic pads. Gonna try that and if it fails, SLX here I come. M675 is the most recent, yes? Should be possible to flip the levers -- my motorbike riding background and being from the UK leaves me wanting right brake/front brake.


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## craigstr (Sep 19, 2003)

I rode 4 bikes today at Interbike with Avid brakes, everyone of them squealed horribly. I'm convinced Avid shouldnt be allowed to make brakes anymore.


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## expat_brit (Jul 18, 2013)

Bruce372 said:


> just save your time and energy and buy the shimano XT...i got the 2013 on offer and never looked back!


Yeah. Here I go down that road. Shimano's on order on sale from Bluesky. Not going t mess around with trying to fix the Avids, though I guess I could whine and ***** and get Elixir 3s eventually, maybe.


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## BodySnatcher (Aug 19, 2012)

Reading through the last couple of pages on this thread it appears the grease or glue on the back of the pads has worked for all who have tried it.
Has anyone been unsuccessful with this method?


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## T Byrd (May 8, 2012)

Stuck piston is my issue. Lbs is sending my elixir 1s off next week. We have tried everything and the piston appears to be the culprit.


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## expat_brit (Jul 18, 2013)

Solved my issue, the easy way. Shimano XT M785s. Not sure if I have 2013s or 2012s though.


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## Vader1 (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm new here and have not looked into any of this post. All I know it's about the Turkey Warble problem and I just want to add my 2 cents. Remove the brake pads, clean the backing plate with alcohol, apply blue painters tape, trim it about a millimeter off the edge with a razor blade, reinstall in original positions, go test it. I'm not sure if anyone has tried that but that shuts my Turkey up instantly.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

Just started running the Kool-Stop D270 pads on my commuter's rear BB7, and they're a noticeable improvement over the stock Avid pads. I get a _hint _of squeal when I first apply the brake, but power and modulation are very good (and no vibration, either).

Also, if you have bent or warped rotors, the MorningStar Drumstix tuning forks work really well.


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## turquoise (Jul 25, 2011)

I was about to give up but I tried brake quiet and it 100% fixed the problem!! Not a peep out of the brakes since. The only problem was the rotor rubbed with added thickness of the brake quiet with new pads so I really needed a bleed, but I just did a few downhills and that wore the pads enough they didn't rub anymore. Thanks!!

Oops was supposed to be reply to TiGeo suggestion of brake quiet http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/j...ration-mega-thread-425196-37.html#post9603127


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2013)

craigstr said:


> I rode 4 bikes today at Interbike with Avid brakes, everyone of them squealed horribly. I'm convinced Avid shouldnt be allowed to make brakes anymore.


were any of them burnished in properly?? my guess is not.


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## craigstr (Sep 19, 2003)

Probably not but I have owned several pairs of various avid brakes and all squealed even when burned in per avids instructions. I stand by my previous comment.


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## frank daleview (Jan 23, 2004)

Has anyone tried replacing the CPS spacers with regular spacers? I wonder if this is a source of unwanted flexing...


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

Been demo'ing a Volagi Viaje that's equipped with Hayes CX-5 mechanical discs. Front rotor is a 160mm Avid, and guess what sound it makes? Yup, gobble gobble!


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

iceaxe said:


> Has anyone tried replacing the CPS spacers with regular spacers? I wonder if this is a source of unwanted flexing...


It could be. I find those spacers unnecessary when the fork has been faced properly, so I'm planning to get rid of mine. Will report back if squealing is reduced.


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## Tweakophyte (Sep 3, 2013)

iceaxe said:


> Has anyone tried replacing the CPS spacers with regular spacers? I wonder if this is a source of unwanted flexing...


Maybe put some duct tape to increase the dampening?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

craigstr said:


> Probably not but I have owned several pairs of various avid brakes and all squealed even when burned in per avids instructions. I stand by my previous comment.


tough to stand by it when 'probably not' and most likely not was the scenerio.


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## turquoise (Jul 25, 2011)

It's been mentioned before on this thread but I wanted to just reaffirm that brake quiet solved the warble on my Avid CRs. I was very close to tossing them in the parts bin. It's a pretty easy process and I detailed it here (btw, this was not my idea and I'm in no way taking credit for it) Ride Up Mountains: Avid Elixir CR Warble Fixed with Brake Quiet

I still have a problem the the pistons sticking but at least now they are silent


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## Tiller15 (Jan 8, 2014)

Well my brand new 2013 Trek X-caliber is suffering from ths usual Avid brake garble and vibration... I only have about 15 miles on the bike as of now and it started from the first descent on my first ride....

I may try the brake quiet at some point, but a brand new bike with brand new brakes should never perform like that, so I will exhaust all options through my LBS before screwing with anything.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Tiller15 said:


> Well my brand new 2013 Trek X-caliber is suffering from ths usual Avid brake garble and vibration... I only have about 15 miles on the bike as of now and it started from the first descent on my first ride....
> 
> I may try the brake quiet at some point, but a brand new bike with brand new brakes should never perform like that, so I will exhaust all options through my LBS before screwing with anything.


The only solution that worked for me is the thin aluminum tape. discussed here


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## Tiller15 (Jan 8, 2014)

dirtyjack said:


> The only solution that worked for me is the thin aluminum tape. discussed here


I will try these things at some point if Avid and my LBS won't do anything for me. But my bike is less than 2 weeks old so I will only have my LBS deal with it right now.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Tiller15 said:


> I will try these things at some point if Avid and my LBS won't do anything for me. But my bike is less than 2 weeks old so I will only have my LBS deal with it right now.


I understand your desire to let SRAM and your LBS deal with it, but they've been dealing with it for over 3 years and not much has changed - some Avid brakes gobble like crazy and others don't.

I gave up on my old XX brakes, sold them and now run Magura MT8's on my Tallboyc. I recently won a SC Solo that came with XO trail's. On the first ride after bedding them in, the front was silent, the rear gobbled. It's been 5 months now, and the tape has silenced the rear gobbling.

Good luck, and report back on what they do for you and how it works out.


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## Tiller15 (Jan 8, 2014)

dirtyjack said:


> I understand your desire to let SRAM and your LBS deal with it, but they've been dealing with it for over 3 years and not much has changed - some Avid brakes gobble like crazy and others don't. Good luck, and report back on what they do for you and how it works out.


How have they been dealing with it? Have the just said "tough" or are they trying to make it right? Are you saying they have been dealing with it so long they just stopped??

I mean if they continue to produce crummy brakes then they should continue to be prepared to do what is right to make them right. Heck i'd even settle for functional!!


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Figured I'd add my .01

I put aluminum tape on the back of pads (Avid Elixir R SL) and the vibrations both front and rear are pretty much gone. Light chatter on front was cured and annoying to occasionally outright scary vibe on rear is cured. Felt like braking predictability and modulation improved immeasurably. Carving fast fireroad corners while feathering the lever went from squirrely to the perfect drift. 

I also wrapped a piece of tube then gorilla tape under/over rear brake line at both upper/lower stays for good measure although I'm sceptical that had much play in the deal.

:cornut:


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Tiller15 said:


> How have they been dealing with it? Have the just said "tough" or are they trying to make it right? Are you saying they have been dealing with it so long they just stopped??
> 
> I mean if they continue to produce crummy brakes then they should continue to be prepared to do what is right to make them right. Heck i'd even settle for functional!!


In my experience, SRAM is happy to send you new pads and rotors. They'll discuss properly bedding the brakes in, (kind of implying that maybe you didn't do it right). Just don't expect anything to be different.

What pissed me off the most though is when you call them and mention the words turkey gobble, they act like they've never heard it before...


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Tiller15 said:


> How have they been dealing with it? Have the just said "tough" or are they trying to make it right? Are you saying they have been dealing with it so long they just stopped??
> 
> I mean if they continue to produce crummy brakes then they should continue to be prepared to do what is right to make them right. Heck i'd even settle for functional!!


In my experience, they've been happy to ship another set of rotors and pads, or maybe even a whole 'nother brakeset, but don't get your hopes too high that it will change the brakes' behaviour on that particular frame.

I had high hopes that the new dual-piston calipers might change their behavior, but my XO Trail's gobbled just like the old XX's until I tried the aluminum tape.

IMHO, it's a design issue. They need to go back to the drawing board with a fresh sheet of paper and some fresh grey matter.


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## cardnation (Jul 2, 2014)

After a 6 month hiatus, its time to bring this bad boy back to the top. 

Anyone have any new techniques? I've tried the Aluminum tape, the CRC Brake Quiet. No dice.

I'm beginning to think my only option is to just swap the rotors and see what happens. 

I do have a theory that the gobble harmonics could be a product of the 6 connection point rotors. The Alligators have 8 connection points along with the new SRAM rotors in the Trail series. Both of which people report having great success with.


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## T Byrd (May 8, 2012)

I was sick of trying to figure it out as well. I just ordered shimano deore brakes from Merlin cycles. I tried everything and I believe it has something to do witht the Pistons vibrating on the rotor once pressure is applied. I'm leaving the sram rotors on and trying the shimano calipers. I'll let you know if it changes.


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm still having great results with the Windcutter rotors. I've paired them with Jagwire brake pads and they've been silent and consistent. I'm using Avid Juicy Ultimates with Elixer style calipers.

I have purchased a new bike since my 2010 Stumpy and it has XT brakes. 

So either....Change the rotors, or go with with XT's.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Over 2 years of using the Alligator Serration rotors with organic pads (like Kool Stop) and CRC Brake Quiet to glue the pads to the spring on my Elixir 7s and not a peep/vibe to speak of since then.


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## cardnation (Jul 2, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> Over 2 years of using the Alligator Serration rotors with organic pads (like Kool Stop) and CRC Brake Quiet to glue the pads to the spring on my Elixir 7s and not a peep/vibe to speak of since then.


The organic pads must be the ticket. I installed the Alligator rotors last night and the turkey is unchanged if not actually a little worse.

This is so annoying. :madman:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It's the CRC brake quiet with rotors with pads....you need all 3.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

Update: I had pretty much given up on my XO Trail gobbling with HS1 rotors. Called SRAM, they sent me the old style Cleansweep rotors that actually made the noise worse. Funny, the rep said they were sending the combination of rotor/pad that had the most success in silencing the noise. (Really, then how come you're not shipping those rotors with all your new bikes???).

Another round on the phone with SRAM, I had to push them to send a set of centerline rotors. Then a month-long radio silence from "the guy who won't return calls from shop owners", then I placed a call to the President of SRAM, who finally got someone to actually give a sh!t.

As usual, you need to call SRAM and complain (again and again), then they tell you to have your LBS call them. But the brakes are silent and powerful with the centerline rotor, which is the rotor that's now shipped with all the new Guide brakes.

Give it a try.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

If using a pad that has no soft paint-like coating, but is just bare metal with a lacquer coating, use automotive brake grease on the caliper piston heads to dampen audible vibrations that will occur between the rotor, pad and caliper piston. A little goes a long way, though, ensure entire piston head is coated so there is no metal-to-metal contact surface once the pads are installed.

Vibration will also travel through the rotor into the hub, so I also apply a little bit of brake grease to the tip of my gloved finger and apply the brake grease around the screw ports on the hub before mounting the rotor.

Then install caliper as described by manufacture.


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## dirtyjack (Jan 22, 2010)

pdxmark said:


> If using a pad that has no soft paint-like coating, but is just bare metal with a lacquer coating, use automotive brake grease on the caliper piston heads to dampen audible vibrations that will occur between the rotor, pad and caliper piston. A little goes a long way, though, ensure entire piston head is coated so there is no metal-to-metal contact surface once the pads are installed.
> 
> Vibration will also travel through the rotor into the hub, so I also apply a little bit of brake grease to the tip of my gloved finger and apply the brake grease around the screw ports on the hub before mounting the rotor.
> 
> Then install caliper as described by manufacture.


Been there, tried that...

It's all there in the history of this thread.


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## Hulka (Dec 30, 2013)

*BB7 doing the same thing.*

I just installed a BB7 on my Gary Fisher hard tail and I have that noise every time I apply the brakes. I took it all apart and cleaned everything, sanded the rotors down along with the pads ans still makes the noise. I followed the break-in procedure that I found on-line for them hoping to not get this noise.

My dad has a bike with the same size rotor on it and it does not make the noise. I am thinking of putting one of his rotors on mine to see if it goes away or still there. (same size rotors as mine) I was hoping for better breaking with the disc brakes but not at this point in time.


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## cardnation (Jul 2, 2014)

Hulka said:


> I just installed a BB7 on my Gary Fisher hard tail and I have that noise every time I apply the brakes. I took it all apart and cleaned everything, sanded the rotors down along with the pads ans still makes the noise. I followed the break-in procedure that I found on-line for them hoping to not get this noise.
> 
> My dad has a bike with the same size rotor on it and it does not make the noise. I am thinking of putting one of his rotors on mine to see if it goes away or still there. (same size rotors as mine) I was hoping for better breaking with the disc brakes but not at this point in time.


Swap a rotor and see what happens.

For me the only solution was to swap on a set of Alligator Serration rotors and some organic pads. After 200+ miles, still going strong.


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## Chris Putnam (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi,

Bringing this one up again im afraid. Can anyone suggest a replacement rotor for me to try and get rid of the vibration/turkey warble issue. I have a Jamis Supernova Elite with SRAM Apex brakes. Vibration thru crabon frame is terrible on both brakes. One brake is normally ok for a little while before it gets bad. Shop I bought from isnt really interested in dealing with it as they dont do Jamis anymore. Annoying



cardnation said:


> Swap a rotor and see what happens.
> 
> For me the only solution was to swap on a set of Alligator Serration rotors and some organic pads. After 200+ miles, still going strong.


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## TheGweed (Jan 30, 2010)

Chris Putnam said:


> Hi,
> 
> Bringing this one up again im afraid. Can anyone suggest a replacement rotor for me to try and get rid of the vibration/turkey warble issue. I have a Jamis Supernova Elite with SRAM Apex brakes. Vibration thru crabon frame is terrible on both brakes. One brake is normally ok for a little while before it gets bad. Shop I bought from isnt really interested in dealing with it as they dont do Jamis anymore. Annoying


I was sent a set of Centerline rotors for my Elixir 5's...they seem to be working well.


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## Chris Putnam (Aug 4, 2014)

Thank. Is this the one?

SRAM Centerline 1-Piece Rotor | Chain Reaction Cycles


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

Yep. I run juicy's on alligator rotors, organic rear pads and metal front ones. No strange noises at all!

Enviado desde mi GT-I9500 mediante Tapatalk


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## lovemachine (Jun 9, 2015)

I just found this thread. I have a 2015 Trek Farley 6, and it has the Avid DB 1 Hydraulic Disc brakes.

It has started making a weird "garble" sound, I guess you COULD call it a turkey warble. I haven't been able to figure out the cause of it.

I'll admit I haven't had a chance to read this thread yet. Is this just a matter of spraying something on the brakes? Or am I going to have to replace something? 

My local bike shop hasn't been able to figure it out either.
Thanks for your help!


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

My experience is that for a permanent fix, cleaning/heating/sanding will not do the job. A change is needed. Try pad types/brands first and if that doesn't work, change rotors to a different brand. The idea is to make a change that will change the harmonics of the frame and brake system package.

Others will tell you to get a different brand brake, but they all can and have exhibited the same problem.


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

lovemachine said:


> I just found this thread. I have a 2015 Trek Farley 6, and it has the Avid DB 1 Hydraulic Disc brakes.
> 
> It has started making a weird "garble" sound, I guess you COULD call it a turkey warble. I haven't been able to figure out the cause of it.
> 
> ...


Hi there!

Here's what I've done...

My bike is a '06 cannondale rush. I changed the old bb5 for juicy's. At first i filed the square ends of the discs that came with the juicy set... and nothing happened. I even tryied with the bb5 discs. Still nothing.

My final solution was to use alligator discs with original Avid organic pads. No turkeys, no wobble, a bit of high pitch noise if a lot of water is suddenly sprayed onto the discs during a ride.

I periodically clean both discs with isopropyl alcohol or nail polish solvent (acetone), specially after every wash.

The touch is nice, the response is great, and this makes me like even more my old C'dale girl...

Happy rides!

Enviado desde mi GT-I9500 mediante Tapatalk


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

gmcttr said:


> My experience is that for a permanent fix, cleaning/heating/sanding will not do the job. A change is needed. Try pad types/brands first and if that doesn't work, change rotors to a different brand. The idea is to make a change that will change the harmonics of the frame and brake system package.
> 
> Others will tell you to get a different brand brake, but they all can and have exhibited the same problem.


Alligator Serrated Rotors.

I'm on my second pair of rotors on a 2010 bike with Avid Juicy Ultimates. No issues since, and I've tried everything.

Change the rotors, or pick up some XTs for cheap. Cleaning/heating/sanding are only temp fixes.


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

Agree on that! Mods on discs are useless. 
Go for Alligator discs, it will improve a lot. Go for organic pads, and your cake will have the best frosting...

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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

lovemachine said:


> I just found this thread. I have a 2015 Trek Farley 6, and it has the Avid DB 1 Hydraulic Disc brakes.
> 
> It has started making a weird "garble" sound, I guess you COULD call it a turkey warble. I haven't been able to figure out the cause of it.
> 
> ...


OK,
well don't read any of this thread

Tell your shop to put on some Shim SLX or XT brakes with Icetech rotors. You will save my ears on the trail and many hours of headache and head scratching trying to solve this issue.

Oh and if you are spraying anything on or near your brakes, you are doing it wrong. 
There are some brake cleaner sprays out there. However, if you need those, you have already done something wrong.


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

lovemachine said:


> I just found this thread. I have a 2015 Trek Farley 6, and it has the Avid DB 1 Hydraulic Disc brakes.
> 
> It has started making a weird "garble" sound, I guess you COULD call it a turkey warble. I haven't been able to figure out the cause of it.
> 
> ...


its the g2 clean sweep rotors. I have the same bike, same issue. they offer a centerline disk that is suppose to eliminate noise..... Im debating going this route or going to shimano m455 brakes....


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

My advice, go with the cheapest first....

Alligator discs aren't expensive, and as I read and experienced, are most of the solution...

Enviado desde mi GT-I9500 mediante Tapatalk


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## Birdss (Apr 13, 2009)

Just an FYI.

I've notice that the name for the Alligator serrated rotor is the Wind Cutter. You can pick em up for around 15-20 bucks a piece on the Bay. I've got the 160mm with the white coloring. I've not tried the Ti coated ones, since I don't like the color.

Don't be worried that they will eat up your brake pads cause they don't. I use the Jagwire pads with my Juicy Ultimates. I like the red on the pads too!


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## leowagen (Sep 29, 2011)

This is my setup 

Enviado desde mi GT-I9500 mediante Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Alligator Serrations rotors, organic pads (I was using Kool Stops), and CRC Brake Quiet to glue the pads to the retainer spring. Never mad a peep after. I dumped the Elixirs for XTs earlier this year but not for noise issues...for "sick of constant fussing with" issues.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

I pulled the trigger on deores. Was $120. Going to try them with my avid rotors, if they squeel putting deore or slx rotors on. Wouldnt mind bumping the front to a 180. The 160 looks weird on the fatbike.

I didnt care for the levers at all on the avids. Also dont want to buy another bleed kit. Shimano on both bikes now.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

:eekster:
:eekster:
:eekster:


How is this thread still alive? I thought everyone sold their Avids and replaced them with Shimanos?????

Oh wait, these are the unlucky souls that bought the aforementioned brakes. I'm sorry you got suckered.


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## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

Lol, I contributed my wisdom back in 2008 on this thread...at the time with Avid Juicy's was quite familiar with the constant tweaking to get them to run smooth ;-) Well fast forward 7 years later and I'm eyeing a new machine with Shimano's. Amazing how the likes of Shimano and Rock Shox have come back with really good brake and shock components respectively. My current bike has Maguras, very good brakes imo.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Has anyone tried switching to Formula's rotors?

Formula 1 Piece SL 6-Bolt Disc Brake Rotor | Formula

I had a bit of warble with my Hope brakes, but I switched to a set of wheels that have Formula rotors and the noise changed completely - now it's mostly just a faint buzz, and occasionaly a continuous squeal from the back brake with moderate pressure (not more, not less).

The bike came with Codes, and my old wheels still had SRAM rotors, so I think this might be helpful to people living with turkey gobble syndrome.


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

Here was my fix for my avids.


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## FireCop (Aug 3, 2012)

Had Avid Elixir 1's on my Specialized Rockhopper Pro 29. Tried everything I could find on the internet. Yanked 'em and replaced w/ Shimano SLX's and Shimano IceTech rotors. Should have done this a long time ago. The new Shimanos are awesome and the SLX line is a good value. Probably could have run the Avid rotors, but wanted to remove all doubt as to where the problem was.


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