# Flat Pedals.... Any old guys riding them?



## mike.miller151 (Jun 27, 2018)

After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a commitment to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


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## Dr. Dolittle (Feb 1, 2013)

I've got Straightline pedals on my Ibis Ripley and I wear 5-10 Freeriders. Couldn't be happier!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Hard to beat 5.10 Freerider shoes with almost any thin flat pedal. I use Wellgo MG2 pedals, super light, less aggressive pins, not as thin as many.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

510s and RaceFace Chesters, best combo for this old dude

Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

I made the switch about 3 years ago. I've run Nukeproof Electron Evos and now Crank Bros Stamp (large) as I have size 13 feet. I found the Chesters were too small for me. As for shoes I've used cheap Wal-Mart specials to now Bontrager Flatlines. Both my brother and my daughter have had 5-10 Contacts that the sole has de-laminated so I went with the Flatlines instead. I will not be going back to SPD's.


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## leaguerider (Sep 6, 2010)

Yep switched to flats about two years ago. When my wife and I started riding DEMO hard we found it useful to be able to get away from the bike.

Now that we are riding the Jackson State forest more we are thinking about going back to clipless pedels due to the mellower trails.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Old gal here. I switched about 10 years ago at the suggestion/insistence of one of my coaches. Never looked back.

Tips etc you ask for:
-Foot position is different. You ride with the pedal axle more mid foot. You use pressure to keep your feet on the pedals, and "heels down" for additional pressure in tech or dh.
-Pedal choice. I wore out two sets of catalyst and then went back to a smaller pedal, so I feel pretty secure in commenting on them. The larger platform is really nice to prevent foot fatigue, but imnsho I think it's harder to pressure the pedal. I really noticed this once I got coaching certified and saw that folks on the catalysts had a much more difficult time using foot pressure. If you have big feet, I don't think this is as much as an issue as someone who has small feet like I do. The foot pressure was just too spread out over the surface of the pedal. I've been working on drops, lifts and jumps and you really need to use pressure. I've been working on drops, lifts and jumps and you really need to use pressure. I am currently running Raceface Attack but I've also used Diety.

Don't let the haters get you down. I've seen that with the new geometry (one old far to another that has seen a lot of bike changes over the last **cough** years) you can really maximize bike performance and how you use your body with flats to become a more dynamic rider.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I use 5.10s and OneUp pedals. Had some Straightline Amps before. Works great for me.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I've been clipless on my road bikes for 25 years, recently switched to Shimano XT PD-T8000, which are SPD on one side, pins on the other - now I have a choice, clipless vs flats. On my mountain bikes, I have no desire to clip in and use RaceFace Chesters with a pair of 5.10s.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Also on Chesters and 5-10s as of about 2 years ago.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Crank Bros Stamp (large) with 5.10 shoes. I wear a size 10.5 shoe.


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## ScaldedDogCO (Sep 22, 2016)

Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?

Have Chester's, but haven't put them on yet.

Mark

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Old guy here, 61. Switched to flats, Wellgo MG-1, nine years ago when I started riding fat bikes in Alaska. So much easier in soft snow with warm winter boots. It was an easy transition, felt I gained more than I lost. Now in AZ and use flats on both my rigid commuter/fire road and FS trail bikes. Chesters with 5-10s now. No shin guards, unless you count scar tissue. Just kidding. I get raked once in a while from pedal kick back, but it's not a serious problem.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

I rode with clipless pedals on my roadbike but switched to flats when I first took up mountain biking (trail and dh)

My combo is Canfield Crampons pedals and Five Ten Freerider Pro shoes. Grippy and light. I ride year round


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Nope. A couple times I've had small scrapes from the pedals, but never anything significant. And I've been riding flats for 6 years.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

My pedals beat me up more HAB than actually riding.

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## toomanyhobbies (Jul 25, 2014)

5-10 impacts with Spank Spikes. Switched from clips in the early 2000s and went right to flats. As much as I crash, I never really considered clipless


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## mike.miller151 (Jun 27, 2018)

*Thank you all for the great input and group wisdom*

WOW! thanks all for the outstanding input.
This 50+ thread is great...

Seems Freeride is the shoe: my son wears these and I tried his on I'm 5'6", 165 lbs with an 8.5 to 9 shoe size... so


> formica
> Old gal here. I switched about 10 years ago at the suggestion/insistence of one of my coaches. Never looked back.
> 
> Tips etc you ask for:
> ...


 the input on Catalyst was very informative. thank you.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?
> 
> Have Chester's, but haven't put them on yet.
> 
> ...


If I'm going to be riding a flow trail or other all-mountain style trail and will be hitting jumps, drops, etc. then I almost always wear knee guards (whether I'm on my flats or clipless). Mine do extend down the shin a little bit.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

5.10's and Chesters for park days (I turn 66 in August). Clipless on techy days, but only because I lack the skills to use flats under those circumstances. My wife is on Chesters as well. She used to wear shin guards, but no longer does.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

mike.miller151 said:


> After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a commitment to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


I tried the Shimano 747's back in the day for a very short time. The problem, balance checks were nerfed into the ground! Deal breaker...
55 and returned to flats after giving SPD's a go for a couple months.
Reasons I didn't enjoy clipless are the lack of balance check capability, shoes that are like strapping micro lam to my feet and are grossly overpriced.

Somehow,the carryover from the road world to the off road world just didn't pan out. Frankly, I can do very well in bike handling without being clamped to my pedals and having no way to step off the back in a derped wheelie or manual. While clipless can be great on a roadie, they are inhibitive for off road applications.


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## jp61 (Jan 17, 2014)

56 here, and rode clipless for over 20 years. Got into the flats about 4 years ago with a winter fatbike, and have been using flats ever since. I use Specialized Bennies and Raceface Atlas. I have found that in any ways the clipless were easier, and I clipped in and out in my sleep. When you first get on flats you realize how often you tend to lighten up on your pedals in technical situations. To the point that at first you may find that your feet tend to come off of the pedals frequently. There is definitely a different technique required with flats, which I don't necessarily proclaim to be the greatest with. I think clipless covers up a lot of sins. I am still not all that comfortable leaving the ground with the flats. But I still prefer them at this point. The best thing I miss from the clipless is that when you get back on the pedals, your feet are always in the same location. Not always the case with the flats, and your feet don't move around once your weigth is on the pins.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm still deciding right now (just put the xpedo spry's from my fatbike on my summer rig, and picked up some Freerider Pro's). Both work well so far.

As with most things, it seems like a trade off at this point. The efficiency, ability to spin up really steep technical climbs, consistent position, and not having my feet come off the pedals, are all great features of clipless for me.

Overall weight, learning to do things "the right way" (e.g. bunnyhopping), walkability, bail-ability, lack of compatibility issues, are so far pluses for flats.

There are a number of little things that I take to just be a matter of time...like backpedaling with 1 foot to get a good starting position...much easier when your 1 foot is clipped in...I imagine I'll develop an alternative strategy soon enough


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## rvbiker (May 28, 2017)

Switched to flats most of the time after jacking my knee learning manuals. I bought Xpedo flats and used a Dremel to sharpen the pins so they were stickier. I went through two sets of 510’s and ended up with the free rides. Awesome shoes and the Xpedo’s are super light and thin.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

5 10's with DMR Vaults for park riding and clipless everywhere else.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I switch back and forth, mostly flats in the winter and clipless in the summer. I need a pair of 5:10s with good ventilation for summer because my Freerider elements are too warm when it's hot.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> As with most things, it seems like a trade off at this point. The efficiency, ability to spin up really steep technical climbs, consistent position, and not having my feet come off the pedals, are all great features of clipless for me.


Spoken like a true old guy. Consistent position? Maybe you mean static. What I LOVE about my flats is that is really frees me up to move up, down, forward, back, side to side, easier to point my knee, turn my hips, stay balanced on my full foot without the constraint of being clipped in. Please no lateral float adjustment comments, it's peanuts compared to what you can do when wearing flats.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

IPA Rider said:


> like backpedaling with 1 foot to get a good starting position...much easier when your 1 foot is clipped in...I imagine I'll develop an alternative strategy soon enough


Yeah, that took me a bit to get used to. I also learned that I would position my bike by pushing my leg against a pedal to shove the bike around to get it facing the direction I wanted to head out in. Quickly learned that is not a good technique with spikey flats.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

IPA Rider said:


> I'm still deciding right now (just put the xpedo spry's from my fatbike on my summer rig, and picked up some Freerider Pro's). Both work well so far.
> 
> As with most things, it seems like a trade off at this point. The efficiency, ability to spin up really steep technical climbs, consistent position, and not having my feet come off the pedals, are all great features of clipless for me.
> 
> ...


Running platforms does take technique that takes time to become automatic. Being able to balance check is imperative and is easily learned. Foot placement also becomes automatic once the bike's PCM is programed!

Carrying the rear of the bike with you when you launch is easily done by toe down position on the pedals. You will stay planted on em as you become familiar with the positioning.

Getting trialsy with SPD or clipless is a hospital bill being manufactured intentionally for a dope like me!

Spinning and climbing, I do just dandy at it. Sarge is a dauntless climbing machine that levels the inclines. My cadence is 125-175 all day long without drama. That is just my comfort zone, oddly enough.

Give it time and experiment with the platforms. It does help to have a good approach shoe or the venerable Vans, Chucks etc. Beats the hell outta those damn wing tips peeps call clipless shoes!



chazpat said:


> Yeah, that took me a bit to get used to. I also learned that I would position my bike by pushing my leg against a pedal to shove the bike around to get it facing the direction I wanted to head out in. Quickly learned that is not a good technique with spikey flats.


Um, that's not how you donate blood!

I have more scars than I know what to do with!


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

I go back and forth depending on the terrain I'm riding. Point One (now Gamut) Podium pedals and 5.10's for rowdier stuff, Alpine Stars hard plastic knee/shin guards if I'm going to be on elevated skinnies or airborne. I have an ancient pair of Time ATAC pedals that go on for more XC type rides. I just replace the cleats every year or so and they're still going strong after about 10 years.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

rvbiker said:


> Switched to flats most of the time after jacking my knee learning manuals. I bought Xpedo flats and used a Dremel to sharpen the pins so they were stickier. I went through two sets of 510's and ended up with the free rides. Awesome shoes and the Xpedo's are super light and thin.


I replaced the not-so-grippy stock pins on the spry's with set screws...much better


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## Dr Evil (Sep 20, 2015)

Tried clipless briefly and it wasn't for me. 55, 5.10 Freeriders and VP Harriers.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

I have Raceface Chesters on one bike and Shimano Saints on the other, I wear Sketchers Vigor 2.0 shoes. They work great on the bike, a little better on the Saints than the Chesters, and are great for walking, hiking and everything else.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I rode exclusively clipless for nearly 20 years but switched to flats on the mtb two years ago. The learning curve going to flats was much steeper than it was going to clipless. A large fraction of riders around here are on flats.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Mostly flats, and with time more of those moderately priced Chester pedals on our bikes.

The big wake ups or eye openers have been.

1. Far less getting hurt.
2. Happier knees.
3. Much better at skills, features, skinnies, pumps and jumps.
4. Truly knowing how to launch your bike or get light vs just pick the bike up via feet clipped to pedals.
5. Has really helped with age or ear related loss of balance.
6. Makes trail riding more fun.

On occasion there are spots when I know cleated or clipped in could make a difference but I feel mostly so what about it because of the rest of the time.

With Five Tens I have developed enough pull up power that I recently realized I've gone from the past winter to end of July and the Fargo (most cleat friendly off road riding) still has flats in the cranks. It looks like this will be another year where clip/cleat is only a road bike thing.


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## Wcslv (Jul 1, 2014)

Flats since new bike three years ago. Raceface Atlas with Salomon Speedcross shoes. Flats allow me to disembark much quicker again. No more slow speed crashes and high speed crashes I can usually getaway from the bike which means less damage to me and the bike.


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## Squeeze (Apr 14, 2015)

I have MKS Sylvan touring pedals on my MTB and on my road bike. I've never tried clipless pedals and shoes. I did try toe clips back in the late '80s (with fluorescent green straps :eekster: that were popular at the time) and didn't care for them.

Random photo from the internet (not mine):


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

i ride with platforms - many different kinds. not too picky about pedals.

just switched from nashbar bike sandals to shimano sandals - love the difference.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I just copied from up there
Also on Chesters and 5-10s as of about 2 years ago.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

When I rode on the road, I used actual toeclips. Never was serious enough to buy actual shoes or cleats.

When I moved over to MTB, I thus could not conceive of being clipped in, even knowing, intellectually, that modern "clipless" pedals and shoes were just a "heel click" away from detaching. Plus, spending a couple hundred bucks or more on shoes and pedals with no use off the bike just irked me like spending a bunch of money on bike racks irks me.

Modern flat pedals and shoes like Five Tens have changed the game even more. But you can ride a decent set of modern flat pedals without Five Tens and still have a pretty good experience.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Frankly, the option to wear a comfy pair of shoes vs. strapping micro lam to my feet leads to an easy answer!

I was looking at some very inexpensive climbing shoes on Amazon and thinking how they might just be very nice on platforms.


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## windsurfdog (Apr 5, 2018)

Bontrager Flatline shoes with Chester peds...great combo.
And the Bontragers were spot on sizing wise...Men US 9.5 fit my 9.5 foot perfectly. 2 sets of laces (red/black) included with my red shoes.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Squeeze said:


> I have MKS Sylvan touring pedals on my MTB and on my road bike...


That's my set up too. I wear walking shoes/boots with them and with suitable lugs on the shoes you can get as good a connection as if you had spikes on the pedals.

The big advantages:
Light but robust
Inexpensive
Low mass so they don't suck the heat out of your feet in winter
Quickly clear away any ice or mud.
I don't have to pay the clipless shoe tax.

Disadvantages;
Can't do the clacky shoe dance.
Don't have heroically scarred and bleeding shins.
Unable to do the comedy sideways fall or OTB with attached bike.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

jcd46 said:


> My pedals beat me up more HAB than actually riding.


This is my experience too. I've had more pedal scrapes from pushing up steep slippery hillsides than any other cause.


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## Len Baird (Aug 1, 2017)

If you have big and/or wide feet something like the Crank brothers large sized stamp will be more comfortable.
I tried them for the first time last fall, and like them for certain things like easy bailing and comfortable shoes on or off the bike. For pedaling a lot I don't like them but I know for some people they climb fine.
I tend to scrape the crap out of my lower legs with them too


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## ntha (Jan 17, 2006)

Just remember that if you're used to ride clipless, there's a short period of adjusting your skills to ride flats so your feet don't come off the pedals. Nothing to worry about too much though. 
I use 5-10 freeriders with Nukeproof Electron Evo's for over 3 years. I suggest you try any of the plastic flat pedals versions that share the same design with the quality models from any of the brands. They're light and cheap and will do the job just fine.
Enjoy


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## Yalerider (Feb 14, 2017)

5 10s with Race Face Chesters, love em


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

> After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a *commitment* to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


It's all about commitment ... and at our age an ability to change and get new muscle memory etc. a little

Like you I started with REAL clips... then clipless and my best advice and wisdom is COMMIT.
Don't under any circumstances go half way... it's way better to over commit (shoes and very aggressive pedals) than under because you just end up hurting yourself. 
(I speak from experience so do as I say not as I did)

A good pair of 5 tens... an aggressive pedal you can dial back... (use shorter pins).
You will initially be wary because you can't move your feet... nothing like as much as clips and its weird.. you also need to get used to your feet not always being in exactly the same place... and for me accepting it was hard... I'd feel I had to get my feet in the exact place before a technical feature ... you don't... but it really takes some getting used to.

Shinguards are a bit defeatist IMHO because if you commit in shoes and pedals then your feet won't slip any more than clips being knocked ... though as others have mentioned you will mostly catch your shins if you push the bike. However if they are what is mentally needed to jump in with both feet then ....???

Once you do adjust and presuming you get some really aggressive pedals you then find you can dial back the pins to give you an ability to move your foot a little without fully lifting off the pedal...

I started with half hearted shoes and Shimano Saint pedals... the Saint pedals are useless for anyone that isn't confident and doesn't have super grippy shoes...even with the pins at maximum length .. A year later and I could use them.... don't really like them but they were terrible to start with and before I got really good shoes and I was forever scratching my shins. More importantly though was the near accidents I had when my feet did slip!

When I got my aggressive pedals (a copy of DMR Vault more or less) they looked terrifying... but about 2 minutes into riding I suddenly realised what people meant about grip... I can't remember slipping once in a couple of years now...


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## dingo369 (Feb 14, 2017)

Never rode clipless. Platforms for life.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I've been riding clipless pedals since Look road pedals came out in the 80s, and actually before that I used Cinelli pedals on the track for awhile. Look those up, they were interesting. 

I still do a ton of road riding and just can't get used to riding flats. If I don't pedal with the balls of my feet over the pedal spindle it just feels wrong, and my knees hurt. I have those Shimano PD-8000 pedals linked above on one of my bikes, and they are great except for the size. They are thicker than a standard flat pedal and way more bulky than the SPD trail pedals so I get more pedal strikes, but I can unclip and ride on the flat side if I want. I almost never do though, I am just 100% comfortable being clipped in. I use 5-10 Hellcats with cleats. My biggest issue with flats is having my foot blown off by a pedal strike or worse, a BB strike. That sucks. Never happens when clipped in. 

It is interesting, if you watch Pro DH races, almost all of the riders are clipped in. Only a few ride flats.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> I've been riding clipless pedals since Look road pedals came out in the 80s, and actually before that I used Cinelli pedals on the track for awhile. Look those up, they were interesting.
> 
> I still do a ton of road riding and just can't get used to riding flats. If I don't pedal with the balls of my feet over the pedal spindle it just feels wrong, and my knees hurt. I have those Shimano PD-8000 pedals linked above on one of my bikes, and they are great except for the size. They are thicker than a standard flat pedal and way more bulky than the SPD trail pedals so I get more pedal strikes, but I can unclip and ride on the flat side if I want. I almost never do though, I am just 100% comfortable being clipped in. I use 5-10 Hellcats with cleats. My biggest issue with flats is having my foot blown off by a pedal strike or worse, a BB strike. That sucks. Never happens when clipped in.
> 
> It is interesting, if you watch Pro DH races, almost all of the riders are clipped in. Only a few ride flats.


Pro racers have their medical bills paid and are rewarded by 1/100th of a second gains... it's still marginal anyway or Sam Hill would be miles behind not winning EWS but I'm presuming that the OP isn't racing DH professionally

Then it's split as to what they ride when not racing ... Brendon Fairclough rides flats mostly ... he lives round the corner almost and I've never seen him ride any thing but flats even though I know he race a them..

There is nothing wrong with clips ... and nothing wrong with proper flats and the right shoes but anything between is just useless for riding and likely to cause injury.

What non of them do is ride any half and half clip because they simply don't work as flats..that includes the Shimano ones above... are not shaped correctly or have the right pins .. your feet come off and you hurt yourself ..

If you have proper flats your feet don't come off ... once you are used to them you can almost destroy the pedal or cranks first ...

As Yoda said ... do or do not, there is no try half clipped pedals ...
I did actually use some half clip for a while when my son was learning to ride... I was just on and off the bike so often but I also had my saddle half way down for the same reason...

But honestly ... for safety's sake either do clipless or real flat and shoes.. bear claws like above or half and half are just going to get you hurt...

The scary pedals look scary.... they look like you will hurt yourself but it's completely counter intuitive... you only get hurt because of pedals if your foot slips... (or when pushing... ) so start off with the most agressive pedals in the most aggressive pin setup... then dial back once your comfortable

99% of people who don't like flats have never tried real flats and real shoes... what they tried was some half and half... of course not everyone then uses flats for the rest of their life but what they don't then do is suggest flats are rubbish or your feet slip etc.

You tube is full of "I tried flats ... " by people who didn't actually try... it's like saying I tried a Trek (insert here) they are rubbish when you took a hybrid on a DH or XC race ... 
Check out Clint Gibbs as someone who did then listened to his subscribers and then did it properly! One of his subscribers even sent him some pedals to borrow ...

If the pedals are not like this they are not real flats..


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No good reason for clipleds unless you’re racing and need every advantage possible AND you’re willing to accept the consequences of increased body damage from falls.

I rode clips in my teens and was an early adopter for clipless as a roadie and on mtb.

I switched to flats when I ride muni as clipless and unicycling is really dangerous. So when I switched back to MTB, a flat pedal was my go to.

A good flat pedal and quality bike specific flat pedal shoe is golden, but for those used to clipless there will be a learning curve.

I ride big, long, and aggressive, my experience on muni, tandem, road, and mtb, there’s no need for clipless in 99% of the riding we do. 

Note that trials, most DH riders, motocross riders, do not ride clipless.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Steve-XtC said:


> Pro racers have their medical bills paid and are rewarded by 1/100th of a second gains... it's still marginal anyway or Sam Hill would be miles behind not winning EWS but I'm presuming that the OP isn't racing DH professionally
> 
> Then it's split as to what they ride when not racing ... Brendon Fairclough rides flats mostly ... he lives round the corner almost and I've never seen him ride any thing but flats even though I know he race a them..
> 
> ...


The photo of the PD-T8000 pedals linked above were the earlier versions. The newer ones added pins on the outside and they give you a set of extra long pins to replace the factory installed short ones. The DMR ones you show have seven pins exposed, the new T8000s have eight, and if you install the long pins, they are about as long as those shown.

I've tried "real" flats and "real" shoes if Hellcats are real. My thirty years of riding MTBs with either toe clips or clipless, plus my continued clipless cyclocross/road riding just make it natural.

I have never figured out what the concern is about hurting yourself while clipped in. I've gone over the bars dozens and dozens of times, including high speed enduro/DH crashes. I've never had an injury that could be attributed to being clipped in. What exactly do people think the risk is? I don't get it.


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## pie4breakfast (May 12, 2016)

Dr Evil said:


> Tried clipless briefly and it wasn't for me. 55, 5.10 Freeriders and VP Harriers.


+1 on the Harriers. I also have a hardtail with RaceFace Chesters (Chesters are a good bang for the buck!). Both pedals are good, but I prefer the Harriers.

Current footwear is DC skate shoes.

I've been looking into purchasing Five Tens (expensive and wide in the forefoot) and Giro Jackets (better fit in the forefoot but still ~$90). I'm a cheap bastid and the skate shoes work fine for me with the large Harrier platform. Plenty grippy.


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## xbmxpro (Dec 1, 2012)

The
Catalyst by Pedaling Innovations with a pair of 5-10's or Vans. Best pedals ever!


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## ethierjung (May 30, 2017)

I moved to flat pedals two years ago and never looked back. Got a few good whacks on the shins so I picked up some shin guards. after a week or two I no longer needed them. I run the 5.10 Free Riders and Free Rider Pros with both Race Face Chesters ($50) and the Crank Brother's Stamp 7 Large. ($119) Stamps are better for me but the Chesters are best bang for $.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

I was on VP Vice, great pedals but on the heavy side, and brutal on your legs. Moved to Chesters on all my bikes, hard to beat.

Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> The photo of the PD-T8000 pedals linked above were the earlier versions. The newer ones added pins on the outside and they give you a set of extra long pins to replace the factory installed short ones. The DMR ones you show have seven pins exposed, the new T8000s have eight, and if you install the long pins, they are about as long as those shown.


Its not about the length of pins its the shape of the pedal overall...



> I've tried "real" flats and "real" shoes if Hellcats are real.


Unless you missed the point, it was to wear real flat shoes with real flat pedals.. as in together...



> I have never figured out what the concern is about hurting yourself while clipped in. I've gone over the bars dozens and dozens of times, including high speed enduro/DH crashes. I've never had an injury that could be attributed to being clipped in. What exactly do people think the risk is? I don't get it.


I just prefer my feet going OTB before my head...
In a more general sense it's more about at what point I unclip...

With flat's it's a case of pushing the bike away (something I found quite difficult in itself after decades clipped in) and trying to make sure you land feet first. With clips you have the initial unclip before you can push the bike away. Unclipping itself isn't the problem it's the pause between them and them being in different directions.. 
I only started riding DJ a year ago and it's made a huge difference to my bailing strategy... if you are simply not going to clear a double .. you aren't clearing it... if you overshot the landing you overshot.. get the bike out of the way and concentrate on landing on your feet.. I've landed on my feet (if not stayed on them) on things I'd never do clipped in.

When I only rode clips I was more often like the captain of sinking ship... trying to ride something out and leaving it much later before planning the crash.

With flat's I tend to bail earlier and if I go OTB it's usually feet first.. not waiting until it's inevitable but pushing the bike away earlier .. and often avoiding the OTB anyway because I'm pushing the bike away in front.

A couple of weeks ago I chose the wrong line on a not quite finished new run and the corner just didn't look like it was happening... and more importantly if it didn't happen I was hitting trees ... If I'd been riding clipped in I almost certainly wouldn't have taken the bail I did... I can be pretty certain of that because I remember the decision to bail and the first thing I thought through was if I was wearing clips or not...

Would I have made the corner ?? Hard to say but hitting the trees was going to hurt..in a race situation that's different you either do it or don't. On a fun day out at the bike park or local trails... I'm happier walking away


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I would regularly hurt a knee, hip or elbow on a rock clipped in. Since switching to flats, it's a rarity. I still fall, but rather than slamming down on my side I can put a foot out quickly enough to roll or otherwise soften the fall if not totally prevent it. That's me and my riding. YMMV


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## Rngspnr (Feb 15, 2016)

DMR Vaults with 5-10 freeriders.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> I would regularly hurt a knee, hip or elbow on a rock clipped in. Since switching to flats, it's a rarity. I still fall, but rather than slamming down on my side I can put a foot out quickly enough to roll or otherwise soften the fall if not totally prevent it. That's me and my riding. YMMV


I guess I still don't get it. If I need to unclip, I twist my foot 30 degrees. I guess since I've been riding clipless for so long, both on road and MTB, it isn't an issue. I bought the very first set of Look road pedals I could get my hands on in 1984 and the first Shimano SPD pedals I could get my hands on in 1990, and I still have the SPDs on an old bike, they still use the same exact cleats as a brand new SPD pedal, which is amazing. I tried a few other brands along the way, but always came back to SPD for MTB.

I *know* that most people keep the retention too tight. I run mine just two clicks from full loose, and I weigh 190lb. People just run them too tight. That is the great thing about SPD, the retention to the front is completely unrelated to how tight you set retention. Time and Crank Bros. allow the front cage to open under light retention settings, which means if you hit a rock you can come out, just like you come off a flat when you take a solid hit. I do 99% of my riding in Colorado and Utah, and bashing rocks is just going to happen. My crankarms tell the story. The other problem is that a lot of MTB shoes are not stiff enough in the sole. When you twist, if the sole is too floppy or you run your shoes really loose, you have to use an exaggerated twist motion. I used Sidis for decades and still do when I race. I have started using 5-10 Hellcats because they are the only shoe I have found that is stiff enough to release predictably while still being hike-a-bike friendly.

There is no wrong answer. I'll continue with cleats you guys and ride flats, and its all good.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

The reasons why I ditched clipless:
- Cleat too far forward. Too much emphasis on the calf muscle for pedaling, especially noticeable out-of-the-saddle.
- Axle too short. Limited the amount I could angle my foot, forcing it too straight forward and back, when I'd like to be more toes-out. Narrow foot stance not ideal for stability (DH, or thru rough).
- Inconsistent release force. Especially noticiable if it gets wet, the shoe can be more pliable and twist more before any force transfers to the cleat
- Wasted time if I had to put a foot down, to get clipped back in the pedals before putting down real power
- Hard to restart on hill climbs (and scary/risky to start on any drop-in/descent), due to the reason above
- Scary to ride up extreme steeps, like rollable boulders, due to the fear of looping out and being unable to eject and get feet down behind me
- Shoes make hike-a-biking challenging, and timing consuming to swap out to spare shoes for doing anything before/after ride.
- Lame falls due to being unable to unclip fast enough and receiving impacts to body similar to if I had "tripped"

Downsides from switching to flats:
- Less ability to brute force with max power through sections that can stall me. There are some times I know if I committed to pedaling, or used a harder yet smoother pedal stroke to control torque, I could've made it through, such as climbing a chunky steep and having the front wheel raise and throw me off the ideal line
- Lots of lower quality units to avoid/beware of. No awesome budget option like there was with Shimano SPD. Flats like the RF Chesters leave me wanting. The Horizon, Vault, and TMac are rated well for a reason.
- Need to relearn some skills. Some skills that required just a foot flick, such as mid-air rear wheel control (e.g. from the rear wheel bouncing off of an obstacle), now demand more core-centric body movement
- Challenging to do some pedaling drills, like 1-foot pedaling
- Pins liable to tear through perforated neoprene knee pad material.

Pluses from flats:
- More ergonomic for me. If I try to point my feet forward, I pedal knock-kneed (knees bending inwards, liable to contact top tube). Much prefer huge platform pedals to be able to ride toes-out and get a stable wide-stance
- Mid-foot over pedal axle feels better. Pedaling becomes more of a glutes, hams, and quads workout, less of a calf workout. I can sustain a pace better now over longer distances.
- The big one: can be used like a normal shoe off the bike. Nice to be able to ride to a shop and walk in without click-clacking with "glass slippers". No need to have a separate bike with flats for such, nor a separate motor vehicle to carry the clipless pedal bike and your casual clothes.

I adapted to a different riding style, that's more planted and stable, from a much more nimble one with clipless. I had shin strikes with pedals with both, with the same cause (rushed/unexpected dismounting), but with bloody claw marks rather than mostly blunt damage. Feels like cheating to be able to kick off and dab so frequently, to get past tight spots and maintain balance, with such smooth transitions that it looks like an legit skill. I find that I force myself to go faster everywhere, especially on climbs, since if I go too slow (~4 mph), it's hard to control the wander/flop of modern slack HA bikes with flat pedals and the bike seems reluctant to feel playful if it's too slow on the gravity-assisted sections. There's a myth that just any shoe works, but I find that I still need a good shoe specific to the pedals for riding as hard as I did with a legit clipless combo. Can't go cheap. $100 on proper 5.10s make so much of a difference that it's probably a must-have.


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

ninjichor said:


> The reasons why I ditched clipless:
> - Cleat too far forward. Too much emphasis on the calf muscle for pedaling, especially noticeable out-of-the-saddle.
> - Axle too short. Limited the amount I could angle my foot, forcing it too straight forward and back, when I'd like to be more toes-out. Narrow foot stance not ideal for stability (DH, or thru rough).
> - Inconsistent release force. Especially noticiable if it gets wet, the shoe can be more pliable and twist more before any force transfers to the cleat
> ...


I ride clipless on my road bike but went to a Shimano PD-M324 flat on 1 side/clipless pedal on my mountain bike after a few too many lame wipeouts from not being able to unclip fast enough. And yeah, the older I get, the longer the pain lingers. I can ride a sketchy section using the flat side knowing I can get a foot down yet I can also clip in if I feel comfortable with the terrain I'm riding.

The whole flat/clipless pedal argument is really a matter of preference and what one feels comfortable riding with. Get out and ride with whatever makes you feel comfortable and keeps you safe.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> The reasons why I ditched clipless:
> - Cleat too far forward. Too much emphasis on the calf muscle for pedaling, especially noticeable out-of-the-saddle.
> - Axle too short. Limited the amount I could angle my foot, forcing it too straight forward and back, when I'd like to be more toes-out. Narrow foot stance not ideal for stability (DH, or thru rough).
> - Inconsistent release force. Especially noticiable if it gets wet, the shoe can be more pliable and twist more before any force transfers to the cleat
> ...


The most expensive bullet omitted from the list: Fewer hospital bills...


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Lots of flat riding mtbrs around here of all ages, not just geezers. It seems like in just the last 4 or 5 years they've gotten a lot more popular. There are certainly a heck of a lot of flat pedals on the market now as well as flat pedal shoes, and the LBSs are stocking them.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Does anyone "successfully" race XC using flats? I still consider myself a racer and so really want to know as the older I get the more I wonder if I shouldn't race in flats for safety reasons. But I don't want to give up any speed with that switch. I've remain hesitant at even trying it in a race as I honestly don't remember the last time I was beaten by someone who I knew was on flats -- doesn't mean it hasn't happened, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who could, just saying that I don't see anyone doing that. I've raced the local "open/pro" class in the past (no one there even toeing the line in flats) and have demoted myself over the past few years into slower "advanced" and "intermediate" fields and while plenty are sporting flat pedals, they're not finishing in the top half. I have flats on my snow bike -- no reason to use cleats there based on how, where, and why I ride. But I haven't been willing to do the racing experiment -- moving flats on to the race bike to see if they are faster/slower/no difference. Anyone have data/personal experience on flats versus clipless in a XC or marathon race?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Ptor said:


> Does anyone "successfully" race XC using flats? I still consider myself a racer and so really want to know as the older I get the more I wonder if I shouldn't race in flats for safety reasons. But I don't want to give up any speed with that switch. I've remain hesitant at even trying it in a race as I honestly don't remember the last time I was beaten by someone who I knew was on flats -- doesn't mean it hasn't happened, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who could, just saying that I don't see anyone doing that. I've raced the local "open/pro" class in the past (no one there even toeing the line in flats) and have demoted myself over the past few years into slower "advanced" and "intermediate" fields and while plenty are sporting flat pedals, they're not finishing in the top half. I have flats on my snow bike -- no reason to use cleats there based on how, where, and why I ride. But I haven't been willing to do the racing experiment -- moving flats on to the race bike to see if they are faster/slower/no difference. Anyone have data/personal experience on flats versus clipless in a XC or marathon race?


Clipless is by far the vast majority preference at all races I've checked out, beginner to pro, local to international. They have clear advantages that force an all-or-nothing committed effort out of you. I even double checked races like BC Bike Race and the MEGAVALANCHE.

Honestly, I rarely pay attention to this, thinking it's more rider than gear. The fact that singlespeeders can outperform a lot of people, no matter what they're running (flats and casual clothes or goofy costumes), speaks volumes, when the majority has been switching to 29er FS with more and more travel and perceived capability.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

Ptor said:


> Does anyone "successfully" race XC using flats? I still consider myself a racer and so really want to know as the older I get the more I wonder if I shouldn't race in flats for safety reasons.


I wouldn't think so... though obviously everyone has different definitions of success.
The testing all seems to show the gains in clipped in are fairly marginal but marginal is what wins..

Either way when racing it's different... (regardless of XC, Enduro or DH) ... I think most competitive people will try and stay on the bike to the point a stack is inevitable. What I personally find different is when not racing and how that changes by bailing earlier.

I also don't get into the same situations on the XC bike... and I wouldn't want to be throwing the bike away in mid-air... to be honest I worry more about the XC bike than me...

for me the main difference is when just out riding... and it's changed how I think in terms of I'll try something and have an idea when I bail before I actually do it.. even if its coming across an unexpected gap I'm already committed to I've got a lot better at thinking sod it... 
I guess that has a knock on effect... in that previously I might tootle up to a feature and then be in the "can I brake or not" ... whereas now I'll put the effort into the pump and by that time it's usually more obvious if I'm landing safely... and the last part of the pump is either throwing the bike or getting extra height if needed.

You don't usually find those features on a real race XC course... but I find plenty out in the woods when I'm riding.


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

I switched from SPDs to flats for about a year starting when I was going to Pisgah to ride some very techy trails. I switched back to SPDs because they skip over stuff better when I get pedal strikes. I got launched this spring when my pins grabbed the ground after a little dip going about 15mph. Maybe my new Trail Pistol will have more BB clearance to switch back to flats, but I'm liking the SPDs fine really. 

My first flat pedals were xpedo Zeds, and they didn't have pins in the middle to keep the ball of my foot from squirming while climbing. The DMR vaults are better for grip, but they have a little less ground clearance.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

My relatively small racing world limits my data, so I wanted others to note how well flats perform relative to being clipped in for a XC race. I think I will treat it like I did with suspension forks and full suspension frames. I've been racing long enough that I was rarely beaten on my rigid bike by those equipped with ineffective early suspension forks (rockshox and manitou). When that no longer was the fact -- I was getting trounced by those with front suspenion forks - I started using one and found it of value. Similarly, only a few years ago did full suspension bikes start finishing in front of me on my hardtail. Now I've got a full suspension xc racer and I no longer have an excuse for getting trounced. Once my peers start passing me using flats, I'll give it a go.



ninjichor said:


> Honestly, I rarely pay attention to this, thinking it's more rider than gear. The fact that singlespeeders can outperform a lot of people, no matter what they're running (flats and casual clothes or goofy costumes), speaks volumes, ...


Strangely, the only races I've ever won (albeit Cat 2 with about a 30 person field at best) were on a single speed (not a single speed specific category -- our local race series notes "Single speed is an equipment choice, not a category"). I was in to that for a few years and if there was ever a bike that needs to be raced (or even ridden) clipped in, it's a single speed. If you can't pull on the upstroke with power, you're massively limiting yourself on steep climbs. If you can't spin the pedals comfortably in excess of 110 rpm, you are limiting your speed on fast sections. I can't see either of those happening with flats, no matter your shoe or the length of the pins.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't race, and I don't ride to go fast - I ride to have fun.

I know for a lot of riders, fast = fun, but it isn't like that for me. At all. 

Flats are more fun for me. That's the reason I ride them.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Ptor said:


> If you can't spin the pedals comfortably in excess of 110 rpm, you are limiting your speed on fast sections. I can't see either of those happening with flats, no matter your shoe or the length of the pins.


Peculiar...
I run 125-175 all day long on flat pedals. It's all about timing and works wonders.


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## windsurfdog (Apr 5, 2018)

xbmxpro said:


> The
> Catalyst by Pedaling Innovations with a pair of 5-10's or Vans. Best pedals ever!


xbmxpro, thank you for mentioning these pedals here. The info at James' site is quite compelling...enough to entice an order from me (which I should receive by next week...can't wait).

Having never ridden clipless, I'm not about to get into the clipless vs. flats debate that James has researched but I do expect a significant improvement in climbing power over my current flats (RF Chester which, to this point, I have been well pleased)...we'll see.

If you have any other comments about your experiences with these peds, please don't hesitate to share.


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

I've never used anything else other than platforms. 

Until about a week ago, I was running magnesium Crampons and Chucks (for years), but decided to change things up.

I'm now running OneUp and Giro Riddance (mids). I'm still breaking in the shoes, but everything is good so far.

Riding style is aggressive, and I've never had any grip issues.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> Peculiar...
> I run 125-175 all day long on flat pedals. It's all about timing and works wonders.


When I say "rpm" for candence, that's counting the revolutions of one leg (the standard in the cycling literature and on cyclocomputers) -- it would be twice the rpm's counting both legs. Hitting ~125 to 175 rpm on one leg "all day" is insane with clips, let alone without clips. But you could be an animal different than the rest of us...


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I can prob do 150+ rpm on flat pedals, but not all day. That's where the red line starts on my internal tachometer. I like to stay efficiently pedaling at 85 rpm, as that seems to be a sweet spot for torque, power, and energy consumption. I increase that if I'm accelerating, but my shift point is anything over 120 rpm.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

xbmxpro said:


> The
> Catalyst by Pedaling Innovations with a pair of 5-10's or Vans. Best pedals ever!


Man, I love my Catalysts. Size 13/14 (Specialized 2FO) shoe and the Catalysts and I'm ready to rock. I rode clipless when it first came out (Onzas!) and only switched to flats a couple years ago. One happy camper- the huge platform works well with my monkey feet. :thumbsup:


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

DMR vaults with freeriders, best combo for me. 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Yep, Chester knock-off's from Amazon, about $26, light and I love them.
Was clipless for many years and last ones were 'convertible' so others could ride the bike with regular shoes. 
Pretty soon I found myself doing the same. 

I usually wear a hiking shoe but not really expensive ones.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?
> 
> Have Chester's, but haven't put them on yet.
> 
> ...


5-10's and Raceface Chester's for me, have 700 trail miles in this year. This combo completely eliminated slippage and pedal strikes for me...except once, and it left a nasty mark. But no would not wear protection and I don't worry about it.


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## Jollyrogers (Jul 18, 2018)

So I rode SPDs for over 10 years, mostly just a trail rider and some XC. Stopped riding @40. Now 50 and got a new HT, put my SPDs on it initially and then started wondering about flats, thanks to this thread. 

So I picked up some chester’s and freeriders saturday @REI and rode some rail trails sunday with the wife. When do I get used to these? It’s like learning to ride all over again. I can’t bunny hop (cause I suck), my cadence is real bouncy now also, and to be honest, I could move my foot around a little more while staying attached with SPDs than I can with this flat setup. Now I have to lift a foot to adjust, and I find myself trying to figure out foot placement a lot. Glad I was on flat terrain for this first outing, SPDs would have been more appropriate for the terrain perhaps? I get the advantages of one pair of shoes, and mounts/dismounts, just seems like I am so stuck to the pedals unless I take a foot off, and then I have to find the pedal again, and end up having to look at my foot versus the trail.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jollyrogers said:


> So I rode SPDs for over 10 years, mostly just a trail rider and some XC. Stopped riding @40. Now 50 and got a new HT, put my SPDs on it initially and then started wondering about flats, thanks to this thread.
> 
> So I picked up some chester's and freeriders saturday @REI and rode some rail trails sunday with the wife. When do I get used to these? It's like learning to ride all over again. I can't bunny hop (cause I suck), my cadence is real bouncy now also, and to be honest, I could move my foot around a little more while staying attached with SPDs than I can with this flat setup. Now I have to lift a foot to adjust, and I find myself trying to figure out foot placement a lot. Glad I was on flat terrain for this first outing, SPDs would have been more appropriate for the terrain perhaps? I get the advantages of one pair of shoes, and mounts/dismounts, just seems like I am so stuck to the pedals unless I take a foot off, and then I have to find the pedal again, and end up having to look at my foot versus the trail.


Takes a while for your feet to learn new moves. Same with clipless at first.


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## Rngspnr (Feb 15, 2016)

Jollyrogers said:


> So I rode SPDs for over 10 years, mostly just a trail rider and some XC. Stopped riding @40. Now 50 and got a new HT, put my SPDs on it initially and then started wondering about flats, thanks to this thread.
> 
> So I picked up some chester's and freeriders saturday @REI and rode some rail trails sunday with the wife. When do I get used to these? It's like learning to ride all over again. I can't bunny hop (cause I suck), my cadence is real bouncy now also, and to be honest, I could move my foot around a little more while staying attached with SPDs than I can with this flat setup. Now I have to lift a foot to adjust, and I find myself trying to figure out foot placement a lot. Glad I was on flat terrain for this first outing, SPDs would have been more appropriate for the terrain perhaps? I get the advantages of one pair of shoes, and mounts/dismounts, just seems like I am so stuck to the pedals unless I take a foot off, and then I have to find the pedal again, and end up having to look at my foot versus the trail.


Try thinking about how you pedal while on the road. Pull through the bottom of your pedal stroke like scraping mud off your shoes. I rode clipless on my road bike for years and thought the transition to clipless on a mountain bike would be seamless, not so my bike tried to kill me with clipless. I went to flats and realized you don't lose much power through the stroke with flats. The only thing you can't do is pull up on the pedal, but the only time that pulling up is effective is when standing. As far as bunny hopping you need to think about the motion a little more with flats when I bunny hop I point my toes down push back and pull up with my feet all at the same time. On a hardtail your feet will bounce a little more than on a FS. When rolling through rough sections of trail point your heels down and weight the pedals to keep your feet planted. If you learn the skills of bunnyhopping and jumping with flats you'll become a better rider. I know a lot of riders like the Chesters but you may want to try an all aluminum pedal, I personally would think that the nylon pedal would be slippery in some cases.


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## windsurfdog (Apr 5, 2018)

windsurfdog said:


> xbmxpro, thank you for mentioning these pedals here. The info at James' site is quite compelling...enough to entice an order from me (which I should receive by next week...can't wait).
> 
> Having never ridden clipless, I'm not about to get into the clipless vs. flats debate that James has researched but I do expect a significant improvement in climbing power over my current flats (RF Chester which, to this point, I have been well pleased)...we'll see.
> 
> If you have any other comments about your experiences with these peds, please don't hesitate to share.


Following up on the above quote:
Been riding the Catalysts for about 6 weeks now and I'm totally sold. Getting the heel area more involved has also gotten more of the buttocks and ham muscles involved. I really feel like my climbing has improved with these peds. Taking them to Chicopee in Gainesville, GA in a couple of weeks for a little more climbing than we experience locally here in N. FL...looking forward to the challenge.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Rngspnr said:


> Try thinking about how you pedal while on the road. Pull through the bottom of your pedal stroke like scraping mud off your shoes. I rode clipless on my road bike for years and thought the transition to clipless on a mountain bike would be seamless, not so my bike tried to kill me with clipless. I went to flats and realized you don't lose much power through the stroke with flats. The only thing you can't do is pull up on the pedal, but the only time that pulling up is effective is when standing. As far as bunny hopping you need to think about the motion a little more with flats when I bunny hop I point my toes down push back and pull up with my feet all at the same time. On a hardtail your feet will bounce a little more than on a FS. When rolling through rough sections of trail point your heels down and weight the pedals to keep your feet planted. If you learn the skills of bunnyhopping and jumping with flats you'll become a better rider. I know a lot of riders like the Chesters but you may want to try an all aluminum pedal, I personally would think that the nylon pedal would be slippery in some cases.


Looking at what is done in observed trials, using platforms is a lifesaver...


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?
> 
> Have Chester's, but haven't put them on yet.


Once I upgraded to Chester's I've only had one shin strike in over 1000 single track miles. So my answer is "not necessary", although that one strike left a pretty good mark!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Couple of comments. 
1. Has anyone talked to you about foot position? If you come from a SPD background, chances are you are not using the correct foot placement. A clipless pedal has you more on the ball of your foot. For flats, the pedal spindle should be somewhere behind the ball of the foot, into the arch. This gives you a better opportunity to balance through your feet and to use the "heels down" movement to secure your feet to the pedals. How to test: have a friend hold the bike upright. Get into ready position. If your feet are properly placed you will be able to balance on the pedals while taking your hands off the bars. If your feet are too far forward, this is going to feel really awkward and like you might tip forward.

2. Catalyst pedals. I've been through two sets. I think they are great if you have a lot of pedaling to do (logging road climb) but if you want to do technical riding, drops, jumps, the foot pressure is too far spread out to use your feet effectively. I think he needs to make a smaller size for people like me (ladies 7) If you wear a mens 10 or bigger, not so much an issue.


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## xbmxpro (Dec 1, 2012)

Awesome! I've turned a few of my riding buddies onto these pedals and they all love them. #pedalinginnovations


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## robc in wi (Sep 6, 2008)

I'm primarily a road rider (40 years), MTB for about 19. Clipless (cleats and straps before that) At 60 years old , knee health is a priority and I found with flats (Chesters) on my fat bike that my foot placement is all over the place. I ride mostly fast, flowing single track with lots of climbing. No jumps, crazy drops etc.. I still work multiple jobs and have bills to pay etc and ride within my limits. Clipping out of my Crankbrothers and SPD SLs is second nature, and I pedal at a high cadence so clipped in makes sense for me. Different strokes....


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## DavidR8 (Aug 15, 2018)

I ride on Chesters and like them. I find the pins aggressive enough to simulate being clipped in on my SPDs as there is no way you can slide your foot fore and aft.


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## robc in wi (Sep 6, 2008)

But that's kind of the point, there's no float with the flats/good shoes. There's a reason road/mtb clipless have float, most people's knees don't take kindly to being stuck in one position during the pedal cycle especially with higher cadence times thousands of miles each season.


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## DavidR8 (Aug 15, 2018)

robc in wi said:


> But that's kind of the point, there's no float with the flats/good shoes. There's a reason road/mtb clipless have float, most people's knees don't take kindly to being stuck in one position during the pedal cycle especially with higher cadence times thousands of miles each season.


Agreed, I adjusted my SPDs to allow a fair degree of float. I'm having trouble adjusting to being 'locked' in place by the pins.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sometimes when I'm using my flats I set my foot down in a position that's just a little off, then I waste time and energy dinking around trying to lift my shoe and reset it where it feels right. I find that annoying. 

I'll admit there have been times when I was able to eject off my bike with flats where afterwards I've thought, "I would have hit the ground if I were using my clipless." I've used clipless since the first generation Shimano SPD so I'm totally comfortable on them but I have crashed a few times during which I couldn't get my foot off fast enough, for example on a sweeping turn where I stay clipped in and a tire washes out suddenly. If I can at least get my inside foot down on the ground then I can judo roll out of it but if both feet stay clipped in then I slide on the dirt and get scraped up.

What I'd like is to be clipless most of the time but have flats on some descents.


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## DavidR8 (Aug 15, 2018)

Yup, exactly what Nat said. It's the misplacement that messes me up. I wonder if it's a side effect of years of clipless pedals taking away the need to think about foot/pedal orientation. 
or maybe I'm just overthinking this


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Adjusting my feet hasn’t wrecked or stopped things or killed energy to where I cannot ride with others who are using feetbelts. Any penalty there can’t compare to a crash.

Then comes riding and bike skills. It was well worth learning how to jump, pump and get light weight (fight gravity) with flats vs just pick up your bike with your feet and think you’re jumping. It makes riding more fun.

I’m even riding flats with gravel and all road biking. Better response to problems in urban riding. Recently I got less wet than someone else and didn’t take a bath when we learned a crossing was bottom bracket deep and not so easy.

If this is about being old, I have to say I don’t have much room for feetbelts anymore. Heck, the race I do most often is to the toilet. I get there faster and I’m sure my Five Tens won’t slip in the men’s room as I witnessed happen to a MAMIL at the neighborhood of biergarten. If you think a fat old guy playing Lance-A-Like looks bad to start, imagine seeing the dude on his back next to the urinal. Seeing that was another argument for sticky shoes and pedals.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Ptor said:


> Does anyone "successfully" race XC using flats? I still consider myself a racer and so really want to know as the older I get the more I wonder if I shouldn't race in flats for safety reasons. But I don't want to give up any speed with that switch.


So...I went riding with my son when I visited him last week in Bozeman, MT. We went to Copper City, him on his Tallboy (fittingly) and me on a rental, a nicely setup Salsa Hardtail. As a first approximation, the Salsa rode much like my hardtail, but what makes this story relevant is that it had flats with pins. The only place the flats were "OK" over the 15 mile ride was in the parking lot. The rest of the time they sucked -- up, down, standing, trying to negotiate the minimal technical features -- the experience was far less than if I had been clipped in. I still had fun -- I was with my son and the trails were a kick. I came home and went out on the trails over the past few days and the free float and ability to lay down the power uphills and through rough terrain was so much more rewarding than my experience on the bike with the flat pedals. I commute daily on flats, I ride my snow bike with flats -- they have their place. But the bikes I use to try to go fast and long will be sporting clipless pedals for the foreseeable future.


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## JKDjEdi (Nov 22, 2015)

Yup and not even thinking about going clipless... love the FREEDOM of the flats and you look like a diehard on them.. if you need training wheels to help you climb then use clipless


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

DavidR8 said:


> Yup, exactly what Nat said. It's the misplacement that messes me up. I wonder if it's a side effect of years of clipless pedals taking away the need to think about foot/pedal orientation.
> or maybe I'm just overthinking this


I think you're overthinking it. I rode in SPD cleats for 29 years before switching to flats last year. Once you COMMIT to flats, all that stuff you're complaining about goes away. It becomes second nature to adjust your foot position on the fly and flats have plenty of "float" as you adjust; I dare say more than on clipless. You would be able to tell by looking at all the heel rub marks on my rear stays. I never had that issue with clipless but with flats, I'm able to move all around and I love it!!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

DavidR8 said:


> Yup, exactly what Nat said. It's the misplacement that messes me up. I wonder if it's a side effect of years of clipless pedals taking away the need to think about foot/pedal orientation.
> or maybe I'm just overthinking this


Foot placement is automated along with many aspects of riding. I doesn't take long to reprogram the PCM to support this feature.



JKDjEdi said:


> Yup and not even thinking about going clipless... love the FREEDOM of the flats and you look like a diehard on them.. if you need training wheels to help you climb then use clipless


The main reason I don't ride a unicycle is I need the training wheel in front of me! :cornut:


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## tomboyjr (Jul 16, 2009)

Here is why I always wear pads now with flats-lol


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

I just did my first paractice and race on flats in 40 years









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## cwoj (Oct 2, 2018)

Ouch! But... scars make for some good stories. You can tell one about a wolverine gnawing in you.

My 2 cents worth...
I’ve been on flats for a couple years now, due to a knee injury. I enjoyed them for 3 reasons: 1. I am avoiding more face plants, then leg punctures that I’ve gained- so I’ll try moves I wouldn’t have on spud’s. 2. I find a variety of basketball shoes (pretty cheap) work pretty well on aggressive pins ( I like OneUps composite pedal at $50), which also makes for an easy hike out vs my Ultra stiff Sidis if something goes really bad with my bike. 3. My feet are wayyyyyy warmer when riding this time of year- right at the cleat is where my feet would get cold,


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## Signman62 (Apr 29, 2018)

56 yrs old.. Raced bike's from age 13
Toe clips and strap's back in the day.. remember them !

Remember around 1988 damaging my knee on a training camp.
Just fitted LOOK pedal's..zero float !!! Nasty thing's.

That knee has never been right since despite injection's etc.

These day's I'm using flat's on my road and MTB bike.

5/10s and Diety Bladerunner on my Evil.
As the above poster I also find I moving my foot forward on flat's, can only help the aging knee's too.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Flats for me.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

I use some DMR vaults, as well as deity and one up components flats on my bikes and have been happy with the so far. 

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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

Forgot to add that the DMR vaults can be a bit unforgiving at times.









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## Signman62 (Apr 29, 2018)

Some nasty scrapes on those leg's !

Anyone else using Deity Bladerunner ?
I love the pedal apart from the fact I can feel the barrel is too high.


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## mtbcat47 (Jan 2, 2019)

I only ride flats. Used clipless on street, but only for a few tries on the trail. I have Chesters on one bike and Giant flats on another that I really like. The Giant pedals remind me a little of the Redline pedals from back in the BMX day. Also, I'm not a real fan of the new shoes offered for flats, sure they stick, but I think they're too firm to feel exactly where feet are and such. What I really like is indoor soccer shoes. Adidas Sambas and Nike Tiempo have very flat grippy soles but a little more flexibility in the sole...


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

mtbcat47 said:


> I only ride flats. Used clipless on street, but only for a few tries on the trail. I have Chesters on one bike and Giant flats on another that I really like. The Giant pedals remind me a little of the Redline pedals from back in the BMX day. Also, I'm not a real fan of the new shoes offered for flats, sure they stick, but I think they're too firm to feel exactly where feet are and such. What I really like is indoor soccer shoes. Adidas Sambas and Nike Tiempo have very flat grippy soles but a little more flexibility in the sole...


I like a pair of 5-10 shoes when not too cold but also a pair of tennis shoes.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm actually going back to clipless because of pain in my knee- Time pedals have some float which I find more forgiving.

My Canfield crampons with 5-10s were so sticky I had to lift my foot to change the placement.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Flat pedal pins can be shortened, shoe soles vary from soft to hard, so it’s fairly easy to find a good combo depending on your needs.

Long pins and soft soles shoes are not necessary if you learn how to ride flats, developing a good spin, avoiding the bad habit of pulling up/back/forward on your feet.

I’ve been on flats for a long time now, both muni and mtb, I haven’t had a pedal related injury in years.

I ride Chester’s on all my bikes, current shoes are Shimano AM7, nice firm Michelin rubber.


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## malucky (Mar 7, 2015)

It's flats for me (53 years old). Ben riding since the early 80s. I wear VERY thin approach (minimalist hiking) shoes with over the calf hiking socks. I get maybe 1 minor scrape per year when hike-a-biking over impassable obstacles like downed trees and suck. 

None of my buddies clip in, but I see a few guys at the trails that do, and that's their thing.... On trails around here... flats are used by the majority of AM riders though.

Most all of the clipped in guys that I see are XC. 

I ride pretty hard, take 3-4 foot drops to flat if available, bob through rock gardens and manual across icy creeks for fun. The one thing that I don't do is slip off the pedals.....ever

Mark


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## JT1 (Feb 10, 2017)

63 years old. I've been riding clipless on my road bike since Shimano began manufacturing them in the early 1990s. I still ride them on my road bike and my commuter bike. But, on my MTB, I'm a flat pedal devotee. I love the ability to put a foot down whenever i need to do so. I use OneUp composite pedals and love them.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

There is absolutely no down-side to riding flat pedals. For me they are way more fun, and that is really all that matters.


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## Kootbiker (Feb 2, 2016)

64 and ride with five/10’s and various brands of flats. Have clipless for many years but they sit collecting dust.


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## bikeCOLORADO (Sep 4, 2003)

I rode clipless for 20 years, MTB, Road, Gravel, Commute.

Then I wanted to up my skills so I registered for a BICP (Bicycle Instructor Certification Program) Level 1 Class. I get this email..."You can not take the class with clipless pedals, all students must be riding FLAT pedals."

I was like..."Oh. OK." so I did, and then 6 months later took the Level 2 course again in flat pedals. I doubt I'll ever switch back to clipless on the Mountain Bike. I'll be assisting and teaching with Ninja Mountain Bike Performance this year...on flats!


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Skooks said:


> There is absolutely no down-side to riding flat pedals. For me they are way more fun, and that is really all that matters.


One downside for me is that I do lose some climbing power with flats. Overall I like them better, though, and I've been riding almost exclusively on flats for the last 2 years.

The other downside is the shredded legs like you see in the photos above. My worst was when I first started riding flats and tried to do some bunny hops on the street.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Skooks said:


> There is absolutely no down-side to riding flat pedals. For me they are way more fun, and that is really all that matters.


As mentioned there is- no float if you have knee issues.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

I think the power/efficiency gains that are claimed for clipless are over-rated, at least for technical mountain biking. I have ridden both types of pedals extensively, and I don't notice much of a difference on my mountain bike. I am actually faster up and down on flats, and I have way more fun. The 'pedal bites' from flats are mostly something that happens when you are first riding them, and don't happen so often as you get used to them. I where heavy wool socks, which help too. Having said all this, I still ride clipless on my road bike.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Skooks said:


> I think the power/efficiency gains that are claimed for clipless are over-rated, at least for technical mountain biking. I have ridden both types of pedals extensively, and I don't notice much of a difference on my mountain bike. I am actually faster up and down on flats, and I have way more fun. The 'pedal bites' from flats are mostly something that happens when you are first riding them, and don't happen so often as you get used to them. I where heavy wool socks, which help too. Having said all this, I still ride clipless on my road bike.


I love flats and i am very flexible.
Maybe people with less flexibility are a good match without flats?
A guy in a bike shop ounce told me to only use my upper legs because
the muscles are more powerfull.
In 55 years i never did that and never will.
When i fallow riders i noticed different ways people rotate.


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

I have just got back into mountain biking, just got a new bike, came with flats instead of clipless which I have been using when I rode heavy (1993-2003), I prefer them so far to clipless. I thought that there would be more of a difference but It's just a better ride...I plan on staying this way as long as it works and is fun, So far so good!


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

No. I've tried flats twice in the last few years and it just doesn't work for me. I have a peripheral neuropathy and cannot feel where my feet are on the pedal. So, I have to look down every time I put feet back on the pedals. That is a non-starter for me on a mountain bike where looking down a lot can put me down on the ground. I also cannot use the rudder on my Folbot Cooper (folding sea kayak) because I can't find the rudder pedals inside the boat with my feet. Getting old sucks but not getting old sucks more!


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## bjeast (Oct 29, 2017)

At 57 with really, really bad knees, it's flats only for me. But it was even before my riding hiatus. Oh, and for my money, if you're going to ride flats, having great shoes is a must!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

bjeast said:


> At 57 with really, really bad knees, it's flats only for me. But it was even before my riding hiatus. Oh, and for my money, if you're going to ride flats, having great shoes is a must!
> 
> View attachment 1238340


Try a pair of trials shoes... Like flypaper!


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

Use flats in the IL Winter. 

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Rode clipless from the first SPD’s in the early eighties, toe clips before that, this was pre-mtb; rode BMX in flats of course. Stayed with clipless on mtb and road through through the eighties into the early 2000’s, then started riding muni and mountain tandem with flats.

Never even considered clipless when I went back to mtb; I’d learned how to pedal smoothly on a muni so I no longer needed my pedal clipped to my shoe to be efficient. 

Having had lots and lots of crashes on muni, I’d never consider clipless these days. For the non muni (mountain unicycle) riders in the crowd, crashes on a muni are called UPD’s or unplanned dismounts. On a typical day riding muni, terrain dependent, I could have anywhere from ten to a hundred UPD’s. Yes, one hundred UPD’s in a day of riding.

Let’s just say I know how to crash, it’s my special skill 

I’ll be taking up endurance racing this year, riding flats, and I’ll be fine.

I tend to ride a firmer rubber with medium pins, current shoes are Shimano, fav pedals are Chesters. I prefer nylon pedals because they manage rock strikes better and the pins last longer without being torn out.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

With flats I have a terrible time getting my feet in the proper position. I have Freerider shoes and Kona and OneUp flat pedals. I could try shorter pins and harder shoes, but I'm not sure I want to give up the grip. With clipless my feet are always in the proper place and have float. Zero float on flats. For me lipless are much more knee friendly.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Since my balance started to deteriorate, (chronic vestibular inflammation, I've found the new style flat pedals to be just the ticket.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

I don't ride dh speeds and terrain or big jumps/flips so I use Adidas Supernova Boost running shoes with my flats. They have an open tread pattern. Common. I need the Boost BASF midsole to dampen vibrations from lots of rocks and roots. Otherwise the bottoms of my feet get numb after an hour. The flats I use have stubby pins that are short compared to the long sharp pins for dh and 5.10 Impacts or Freeriders. My pair of Freeriders don't do anything for the numbness so they're new on a shelf. I never come off any flats because I drop my heals when ever I go over rocks and I'm on a hardtail so my weight is on the pedals. The angle makes it impossible to get my feet off the pedals. It would be more of a challenge without body weight if I was sitting on a fs.


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## ISP5353 (Feb 4, 2019)

I ride both, but in the winter I usually put on some Crankbrothers Spank 7s.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

My opinion may be invalid since I'm just under the wire at 48 yrs. old. 

I've been on clipless since my first pair of Onzas in 1994 (I've also used SPDs, and eventually settled on Speedplay Frogs). I still prefer clipless for feeling the most "assured" & efficient when riding, but do run RaceFace Chesters on my Surly BFD cargo bike, which is nice for around town. I like the Chesters, but as others have shown, watch those shins/legs!


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Really, a decision to ride flats has to be based on your type of riding and your goals. If you are just a cruising the neighborhood or riding bike paths with 4 year olds and grandpa and grandma, flat pedals are perfect. If you are riding trials competition or crazy skills parks with skinnies that are 20 feet off the ground, flats are essential. If you are doing tricks in the jump park with bike whips and so forth, you need flats.

But why spend thousands on an efficient and high tech modern bike and limit your experience with flat pedals? Buy yourself a quality pedal with proper float for your riding and a good pair of clipless shoes and learn to ride with them. If you are a serious cyclist, that is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual bike rider. It depends on your type 
of riding and your goals.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Lopaka said:


> Really, a decision to ride flats has to be based on your type of riding and your goals. If you are just a cruising the neighborhood or riding bike paths with 4 year olds and grandpa and grandma, flat pedals are perfect. If you are riding trials competition or crazy skills parks with skinnies that are 20 feet off the ground, flats are essential. If you are doing tricks in the jump park with bike whips and so forth, you need flats.
> 
> But why spend thousands on an efficient and high tech modern bike and limit your experience with flat pedals? Buy yourself a quality pedal with proper float for your riding and a good pair of clipless shoes and learn to ride with them. If you are a serious cyclist, that is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual bike rider. It depends on your type
> of riding and your goals.


Pfft!


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## mtbcat47 (Jan 2, 2019)

Lopaka said:


> Really, a decision to ride flats has to be based on your type of riding and your goals. If you are just a cruising the neighborhood or riding bike paths with 4 year olds and grandpa and grandma, flat pedals are perfect. If you are riding trials competition or crazy skills parks with skinnies that are 20 feet off the ground, flats are essential. If you are doing tricks in the jump park with bike whips and so forth, you need flats.
> 
> But why spend thousands on an efficient and high tech modern bike and limit your experience with flat pedals? Buy yourself a quality pedal with proper float for your riding and a good pair of clipless shoes and learn to ride with them. If you are a serious cyclist, that is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual bike rider. It depends on your type
> of riding and your goals.


I like this. But I disagree. Why? Because they make flat pedals for the serious rider. They make flat shoes for the serious rider. The data is not overwhelming that being clipped in is better for the mid range peddling that most serious and not serious riders do for the bulk of their riding. Are you sprinting full out where seconds truly count? If not, being clipped in is simply not necessary, no matter how serious you are...

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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I have 2 questions, the chesters have characteristics that i am looking for, i would use them 4 months on my fat in snow, do they have the reputation of allways packing snow(i hate that).
The other 8 months i am into XC, no race, focussed more on climbing than speed. If i find them too agressive may i retract the pins partly? May i replace them for shorter ones? I use 5-10 for 8 months than snowmobile boots.
If not any suggestion of flat pedals that are not to expensive, not too heavy and kind of thin, metal is a nono for me.
Thanks.
I am kind of happy with the pedals that came on my fatboy but with 3 bikes i will be buying a pair soon.
Here they cost 65$ canadian(about 50$US)
https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5053-051/Chester-Pedals?org_text=flat pedals


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

33red said:


> I have 2 questions, the chesters have characteristics that i am looking for, i would use them 4 months on my fat in snow, do they have the reputation of allways packing snow(i hate that).
> The other 8 months i am into XC, no race, focussed more on climbing than speed. If i find them too agressive may i retract the pins partly? May i replace them for shorter ones? I use 5-10 for 8 months than snowmobile boots.
> If not any suggestion of flat pedals that are not to expensive, not too heavy and kind if thin, metal is a nono for me.
> Thanks.
> ...


The option for changing pins with longer/shorter is the fine tuning aspect that makes em even more relevant. Strategic pin placement based on length and location can take that even further.

On another note, mtbcat47, I have to agree with ya. There is a methodology to the use of platform pedals that needs to be learned by the user. 
For genuine offroad riding, partly done with the use of trials skills, a clipless is a hospitalization and helicopter ride attempting to happen, simple as that. 
Honestly, I can spin just dandy on my 17 pair of platforms that are in service. My bike collection spans many decades and all are in service and get out for a ride.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Are you sprinting full out where seconds truly count? If not, being clipped in is simply not necessary, no matter how serious you are... 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I ride both but there are important benefits of clipless. During long steep grades, clipless allows you to put more power into the driveline and equals out the torque being applied to the frame and bottom bracket. Ride a bike with a good power meter and see your effort on both spindles. It can be very enlightening. Looking at the display you can see the individual output of each leg. Fairly large difference in power output when fully clipless vs flat. Just exactly like you would expect. I need all the power I can muster up 11% grades.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lopaka said:


> Really, a decision to ride flats has to be based on your type of riding and your goals. If you are just a cruising the neighborhood or riding bike paths with 4 year olds and grandpa and grandma, flat pedals are perfect. If you are riding trials competition or crazy skills parks with skinnies that are 20 feet off the ground, flats are essential. If you are doing tricks in the jump park with bike whips and so forth, you need flats.
> 
> But why spend thousands on an efficient and high tech modern bike and limit your experience with flat pedals? Buy yourself a quality pedal with proper float for your riding and a good pair of clipless shoes and learn to ride with them. If you are a serious cyclist, that is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual bike rider. It depends on your type of riding and goals.


I know some guys that are excellent riders and are seriously fast on flat pedals, they race with them and are very competitive. Not what most would consider a casual bike rider.

I agree that at the upper end (pro's) they are essential but there are lots of "serious" riders that aren't pro.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Any moron can ride clipless. I did it exclusively for ~18 years, and still do at times.

It takes a special kind of moron to ride flats, which I switched to 2.5 years ago or so.

For me, the choice came down to what did I want to do, bash my hips and elbows, or destroy my shins. I went with destroying my shins.


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## krankie (Feb 22, 2019)

One ups are great!


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> I know some guys that are excellent riders and are seriously fast on flat pedals, they race with them and are very competitive. Not what most would consider a casual bike rider.


I know none of these guys, at least when it comes to the races. I'm 58, almost 59, middle of the pack sport rider and none of the guys finishing in front of me OF ANY AGE ride flats in races. Do I know highly skilled riders who can go long on difficult terrain who use flats -- yeah. But they're not fast in races. YMMV


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ptor said:


> I know none of these guys, at least when it comes to the races. I'm 58, almost 59, middle of the pack sport rider and none of the guys finishing in front of me OF ANY AGE ride flats in races. Do I know highly skilled riders who can go long on difficult terrain who use flats -- yeah. But they're not fast in races. YMMV


Well we can't all know everyone. One friend who uses flat pedals is probably standing on a podium right about now. Another holds his own in pro ss races. These guys are not casual cruisers. YMMV.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

Skooks said:


> I think the power/efficiency gains that are claimed for clipless are over-rated, at least for technical mountain biking. I have ridden both types of pedals extensively, and I don't notice much of a difference on my mountain bike. I am actually faster up and down on flats, and I have way more fun. The 'pedal bites' from flats are mostly something that happens when you are first riding them, and don't happen so often as you get used to them. I where heavy wool socks, which help too. Having said all this, I still ride clipless on my road bike.


This was an eye opener


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Catmandoo said:


> This was an eye opener


They said it was inclusive and that a much more comprehensive test was necessary for any meaningful results.

GCN did a similar test and their conclusion was that they both were really close (efficiency wise) except for sprints where clips showed a significant advantage.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I understand power meters are more of a road thing. But if you get a chance to ride in various conditions with a power meter that shows both sides, you will plainly see the extra power and balance available when you push pull. Ever since toe clips, I always push pull except if I am nursing an injury or riding flats. It is just more efficient. One bike has Doubleshot 3 so when I get in areas I may need my feet on the ground quickly, I unclip and flip to the flat side. There really is no argument for flats as being as efficient but there is a lot of places for flats.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Any person can use numbers to prove what they want, wip-di-do!
The person/drogged entity has a limited amount of energy so that greatest pedal will kill it/that real soon. 
I might be wrong but i see some person like me have better than average endurance and others are more gifted on the power side. 
On my fatbike my tiny gear is so easy to pedal i can climb anywhere and i am no athlete. Put a power rider on it it will just spin like crazy, fail to climb and i have no problem delivering just the minimum amount of pressure to crawl up. I have tons of records for the slowest time to reach the top. Today restarting on an uphill my fatbike went a bit backward than i climbed that hill. No power rider can touch my fatboy push on the pedal on the tiny gear and it flips over, i need to gently apply pressure to keep my front tire down.
Also there is the flexibility issue. Some people are kind of stiff at the ankles and others really use that articulation.
Not to mention the ((look like a pro factor)) i dress like a pro i am close to being a pro.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Pedalon2018 said:


> There really is no argument for flats as being as efficient but there is a lot of places for flats.


Maybe not quite as efficient but do you disregard scientific experiments that show they're surprisingly close? They do use power meters for those tests.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Not at all but I use both. Ride different pedals on the same trail so I have my own reference. As the guys said, short test, only ten minutes and the difference in sprints was significant. The down hills I do require very little input so hell yes I am on flats or I am on the brakes. We just ride what we like but I much rather be on clipless when speed or climbing is on the menu. At 65, I need all the efficiency I can find.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Well we can't all know everyone. One friend who uses flat pedals is probably standing on a podium right about now. Another holds his own in pro ss races. These guys are not casual cruisers. YMMV.


There is no doubt that there are some guys, somewhere, that are fast on flats. They are, certainly, the exception. I contend that 99% of riders on flats will be not only faster clipped in, but will be better riders overall. Sorry, it's science.

It cracks me up when someone has gone from clipped in to flats describe how they constantly lift their foot off the pedal when they are riding, like it is some kind of defect or disease they have contracted. It's something they think they need to be "cured" of. The very fact that they do this is proof of the advantage of being clipped in. Mashing pedals is no virtue and generating power on the backside of the pedal stroke is no vice.

There are going to be guys who want to ride flats, Fine, enjoy. But accept the fact that flats are, in no way, a superior pedal for most riding whether it be road, trail, and even DH.

I'm not a hater and we can be friends no matter what pedal you use.


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## ToYZiLLa (Feb 4, 2019)

Pedalon2018 said:


> I understand power meters are more of a road thing. But if you get a chance to ride in various conditions with a power meter that shows both sides, you will plainly see the extra power and balance available when you push pull. Ever since toe clips, I always push pull except if I am nursing an injury or riding flats. It is just more efficient. One bike has Doubleshot 3 so when I get in areas I may need my feet on the ground quickly, I unclip and flip to the flat side. There really is no argument for flats as being as efficient but there is a lot of places for flats.


What shoes are you using with the Double Shots?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lopaka said:


> There is no doubt that there are some guys, somewhere, that are fast on flats. They are, certainly, the exception. I contend that 99% of riders on flats will be not only faster clipped in, but will be better riders overall. Sorry, it's science.


I agree that the same person would be slightly faster clipped in but a better rider? Speed is not the only measure of riding skills.

It's funny how people keep quoting science as evidence that clipless pedals are more efficient while at the same time ignoring scientific experiments that suggest otherwise.

I'm not arguing for or against either one, just saying that unless you're a pro (and sometimes even then) you can be competitive in xc races while using flat pedals. This is a fact. Two of my friends on flat pedals stood on the podium last night, over 100 people there using clipless didn't.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I use both, no big deal either way... unless it's muddy, or snowy, or real cold, or a dozen other factors that make clipless awkward, useless, or deadly.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Ptor said:


> I know none of these guys, at least when it comes to the races. I'm 58, almost 59, middle of the pack sport rider and none of the guys finishing in front of me OF ANY AGE ride flats in races. Do I know highly skilled riders who can go long on difficult terrain who use flats -- yeah. But they're not fast in races. YMMV


You've probably heard the expression that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ask your son to pay attention in Montana. I've spent my last 5 summers at a lot of enduro races, and have seen plenty of riders with flats on podiums. In all categories, including pros.

The majority of serious racers tend to be clipped in, but saying that people who choose flats don't finish better than mid-pack in sport is going to fall apart with a larger sample.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

evasive said:


> You've probably heard the expression that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ask your son to pay attention in Montana. I've spent my last 5 summers at a lot of enduro races, and have seen plenty of riders with flats on podiums. In all categories, including pros.
> 
> The majority of serious racers tend to be clipped in, but saying that people who choose flats don't finish better than mid-pack in sport is going to fall apart with a larger sample.


All of what you say is true, and I know nothing of enduro racers preferences as all I race are XC or Marathons -- I should have qualified my earlier statement. But taking my data set -- reasonable size, somewhere in the several hundreds of individual XC/marathon racers over the past couple of years -- and it can't be more than a percent or two of racers who are beating a mid-pack sport racer using clipless pedals. I see plenty of mtbers on the trail on flats and a number line up at the races I do, so it's not as if no one is riding flats in the region I live and race XC and marathon -- they're just not placing in the top half of XC/marathon races. People on bikes that cost 1/10th of mine beat me, single speeders beat me, people on ancient 26" bikes beat me. I'm just noting that people racing flats in XC/marathon races don't do so at anywhere near the frequency that the use numbers would indicate if they were just as good or better as the flat-pedal zealots maintain for the XC/marathon race situation.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Good find and well worth watching.

So the flat pedals and clipless pedals were close, slight advantages either way depending on scenario, BUT this rider is accustomed to racing/training on clipless. Imagine if the tester rode flats for a season then did the same test ?

So then there's the differences that they didn't speak of:

Increased crash safety
Improved knee/ankle/hip health
Broader terrain adaptability

So perhaps for road riding and XC racing there is s very slim margin of improved efficiency, but the overall benefits of flats for non XC racers is pretty clear.

Of course most people choose with their gut .... but considering this is the old farts forum, comprised of riders who tends to have more joint injury history, place higher value on safety, and are less likely to be competing in a real world setting, flats make a lot of sense.



Catmandoo said:


> This was an eye opener


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Improved knee/ankle/hip health
> Broader terrain adaptability


I don't know about those two, particularly the first one. Is there evidence supporting that?

Also I think the tester said he had something like 14 years experience riding flats.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> Good find and well worth watching.
> 
> So the flat pedals and clipless pedals were close, slight advantages either way depending on scenario, BUT this rider is accustomed to racing/training on clipless. Imagine if the tester rode flats for a season then did the same test 
> 
> ...


This getting to be a rediculess thread. Who cares what anyone uses?Some folks ask for advise and get it. So my last comments are just observed truths and common sense. You have two legs and flats let you use one at a time. Clipless permits you to use one or both legs to power the bike as you choose. So there can be no pretending flats are more efficient. The vid clearly stated the difference was not minor on sprints plus the test only lasted ten minutes. Flats have their place and are faster on downhills under some circumstances where pedaling is not the primary skill to get you down the hill. Lastly, head outside and pull the spark plug wire on your garden tractor/motorcycle and see how efficient it runs with only one cylinder providing power. Travel Safe All.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

@pedalon2018 You make the thread more ridiculous with your logical fallacy and your "truth" and "common sense".

The gist is that you get more potential power, not more efficiency, from clipless. 

I will admit that efficiency on climbs is different. If you are going slow, a larger % of your power is going into combating rolling resistance and drag/friction from moving parts rubbing against each other, which is less efficient than if you were going faster. That GCN video was done on a treadmill, which takes that speed variable out of the picture, keeping it constant. If you were to let a rider go at their own pace, the clipless rider can argue that they were more efficient, going up the hill faster, as they can more readily lay down higher power than they could with flats.

I'll argue that a rider on flat pedals, who is only using their downstroke to match the pace of a clipless rider up the same climb, will be no less efficient. The flat pedal riders may even be more efficient, if the clipless rider is pulling up, based on the "truth" and "common sense" that larger, more regularly used muscles are more efficient at doing work.

The ability to put more power down in the same amount of time is useful for racing, especially considering you have limited opportunity to pedal between obstacles (inc. corners), and they train to recover faster from bursts of power through interval training. 

A casual rider who merely is riding to take in nature and spend time building camaraderie, pacing off of a group of riding buddies, has demands that could be better met by a set of quality flat pedals, and flat pedal specific shoes (and knee/shin pads). Us old guys don't heal fast, and I could use more reason to run pads more regularly. The conveniences afforded by flats are a bonus. Retiring from the rigid structure of race-inspired riding style could have come much sooner in my life.


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> Any moron can ride clipless. I did it exclusively for ~18 years, and still do at times.
> 
> It takes a special kind of moron to ride flats, which I switched to 2.5 years ago or so.


LMAO! At the urging of several friends, I went with flats on the Canfield Nimble 9 I built up a couple months ago. I definitely feel special sometimes. The first couple rides, interesting how often I would just lift my foot off a pedal for seemingly no reason.

I am enjoying the challenge of learning something new.


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## abrooks (Feb 1, 2015)

In my 50s and only ride flats these day. 
Around 4 years ago I had an off riding clipped in and twitsed my knee. I switch back to flats, finding my old V8's I had lying around. I switched because I was fed up sitting out while my knee got better. As soon as I got back on my bike I knew it was the right thing to do, no pain whatsoever. It does take a while to find the optimum foot position, I found between the arch and ball of my feet to be the best, for me. 
I do now feel more stable on the bike, I can push into the pedals when pumping and I'm smother when it comes to bunny hops and jumps. Stick it out, it'll be worth it.

Oh yeah, I have scars on my legs from 30 years ago from riding flats, added a few more over the last couple of years


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

BrianU said:


> LMAO! At the urging of several friends, I went with flats on the Canfield Nimble 9 I built up a couple months ago. I definitely feel special sometimes. The first couple rides, interesting how often I would just lift my foot off a pedal for seemingly no reason.
> 
> I am enjoying the challenge of learning something new.


I'm the other side of the coin. 30 years mt. biking, 27 ? On SPD. I have zero interest in learning new skills like flats, though am facinated that so many made the switch in a positive way.

I think the whole idea of knee/hip injury from clipless is overblown and only in severe cases would see moving to flats as an option. I'm also facinated that so many think of clipless as somehow dangerous, as I haven't fallen beceause I couldn't release since, oh right after I went SPD. I am however, not in danger of falling into something that could cause serious injury, such as falls downhill or major rock piles. I'm not interested in riding terrain that I might get get hurt in a major way, so the flat/clipless debate and why one over the other doesn't really affect me.

But as stated, flats are a fascinating idea, that I might try out, but first I need go get good at riding a new 29'er that is so vastly different than anything I've ridden before. Baby steps for an old fart basically.


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## mtbcat47 (Jan 2, 2019)

Catmandoo said:


> I'm the other side of the coin. 30 years mt. biking, 27 ? On SPD. I have zero interest in learning new skills like flats, though am facinated that so many made the switch in a positive way.
> 
> I think the whole idea of knee/hip injury from clipless is overblown and only in severe cases would see moving to flats as an option. I'm also facinated that so many think of clipless as somehow dangerous, as I haven't fallen beceause I couldn't release since, oh right after I went SPD. I am however, not in danger of falling into something that could cause serious injury, such as falls downhill or major rock piles. I'm not interested in riding terrain that I might get get hurt in a major way, so the flat/clipless debate and why one over the other doesn't really affect me.
> 
> But as stated, flats are a fascinating idea, that I might try out, but first I need go get good at riding a new 29'er that is so vastly different than anything I've ridden before. Baby steps for an old fart basically.


Switching bikes is the perfect time to switch pedal systems. The folks I know who tried flats but didn't like them made the mistake of riding their bike set up for clipless. Things I change are max seat height is considerably lower with flats. Front to back the seat usually needs to be moved forward with flats. And all these changes can even lead to changes to suspension settings...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

mtbcat47 said:


> Switching bikes is the perfect time to switch pedal systems. The folks I know who tried flats but didn't like them made the mistake of riding their bike set up for clipless. Things I change are max seat height is considerably lower with flats. Front to back the seat usually needs to be moved forward with flats. And all these changes can even lead to changes to suspension settings...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't change a thing, well except the pedals when switching between the two. That being said when I'm running flats I'm usually not seated very often but when I am it's just fine.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

mtbcat47 said:


> Switching bikes is the perfect time to switch pedal systems. The folks I know who tried flats but didn't like them made the mistake of riding their bike set up for clipless. Things I change are max seat height is considerably lower with flats. Front to back the seat usually needs to be moved forward with flats. And all these changes can even lead to changes to suspension settings...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have always used a 25mm backset post and slammed my seat back with my platform pedals. That is where I need to be for my comfort and performance.
Seat height was not relevant for my foray into SPD nor was it for the SPD vs. platform experiments.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I will be 50 this year....

I grew up on BMX....you had shoes on, you got on the bike, you rode

pretty much do the same thing on MTB. Warmer shoes in the winter is the only change

granted, I was/am not into racing, or timing my rides...I WAS/AM into trying out stupid stuff and falling. Don't like to be hooked to the bike because of this...


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## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

Catmandoo said:


> I'm the other side of the coin. 30 years mt. biking, 27 ? On SPD. I have zero interest in learning new skills like flats, though am facinated that so many made the switch in a positive way.


My intro to clipless was a set of 737s I bought around 1994. Amazing anyone wanted anything to do with clipless after using those things. Any dirt what so ever stuck in your cleat or the pedal and you had better make sure you had something to lean on while trying to unclip. Those were the reason I starting using Speedplay Frogs, which I used up until about 3 years ago. Only real complaint I ever had with them was the price of a set of cleats. Got a good deal on a set of M8000 XT SPDs and have been real happy with them.

I have been spending lots of Sunday mornings riding a very technical and rocky trail this past year or so. While I had been riding there on my rigid SS with SPDs and have seen a noticeable improvement in my skills, I will say that being able to dab a foot has given me greater confidence in tackling certain sections on my Canfield with flats. If it was not for this one trail that I frequently ride, I probably would have just bought another set of SPDs.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Did you take the time to watch the video? It was actually quite well done.

So you're new to the forum, you don't know that discussions regarding pedals, wheel sizes, suspension, etc... have been a regular facet of MTBR for years.

It's not about you; honestly none of us care about you or what you ride, it's all about the discussion.

So sit back, get comfortable, learn something, and try not to get butt hurt in the process 



Pedalon2018 said:


> This getting to be a rediculess thread. Who cares what anyone uses?Some folks ask for advise and get it. So my last comments are just observed truths and common sense. You have two legs and flats let you use one at a time. Clipless permits you to use one or both legs to power the bike as you choose. So there can be no pretending flats are more efficient. The vid clearly stated the difference was not minor on sprints plus the test only lasted ten minutes. Flats have their place and are faster on downhills under some circumstances where pedaling is not the primary skill to get you down the hill. Lastly, head outside and pull the spark plug wire on your garden tractor/motorcycle and see how efficient it runs with only one cylinder providing power. Travel Safe All.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In years past, but he'd riding clipless exclusively for a while, so not in practice .... and riding flats, like anything, takes practice.

As to evidence that it's better for your feet, knees, legs, and hips to have full floating foot position to minimize repetitive use injuries? You really need evidence?

Ever wonder why the clipless pedal mfgs advertise degrees of float?

Cuz not enough float is bad for your joints.



J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know about those two, particularly the first one. Is there evidence supporting that?
> 
> Also I think the tester said he had something like 14 years experience riding flats.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> As to evidence that it's better for your feet, knees, legs, and hips to have full floating foot position to minimize repetitive use injuries? You really need evidence?


Actually yes, without some sort of evidence I'm not really sure about that. I don't usually ride with flat pedals but I have heard that sticky pedals and shoes offer essentially zero float and that it's necessary to lift a foot off a pedal to reposition it. Spd's feel like they have a ton of float to me, and some people going from flats to clips find that disconcerting.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually yes, without some sort of evidence I'm not really sure about that. I don't usually ride with flat pedals but I have heard that sticky pedals and shoes offer essentially zero float and that it's necessary to lift a foot off a pedal to reposition it. Spd's feel like they have a ton of float to me, and some people going from flats to clips find that disconcerting.


True, but shoes for flat pedals usually have a fair amount of wiggle in them, unlike the super tight magic slippers that are most clipless shoes.


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## trysixty (Jun 21, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> I have never figured out what the concern is about hurting yourself while clipped in. I've gone over the bars dozens and dozens of times, including high speed enduro/DH crashes. I've never had an injury that could be attributed to being clipped in. What exactly do people think the risk is? I don't get it.


Consider yourself very lucky, for when you do finally "get it" we will all feel sorry for you. On a lighter but still serious note, PB covered a story about a 75 year old man using clipless pedals climbing up a hill in AZ and stalled ....falling off the trail sideways into a bunch of rattle snakes ? .


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

I use both. But did many years of xc and spd's before switching to dh with flats and then a mixture of both, now i'm heavy enduro leaning to dh. I'll spd up for lots of pedalling and flat up for lots of tech. 


I'm using a standard pair of skate shoes and $15 ebay pedals. They work fine. 


Now the most important thing you need to learn is the flat pedal bunny hop. That teaches you to how to lock your feet onto the pedals. Then once mastered use that technique even when you are using spds.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> I've tried "real" flats and "real" shoes if Hellcats are real. My thirty years of riding MTBs with either toe clips or clipless, plus my continued clipless cyclocross/road riding just make it natural.
> 
> I have never figured out what the concern is about hurting yourself while clipped in. I've gone over the bars dozens and dozens of times, including high speed enduro/DH crashes. I've never had an injury that could be attributed to being clipped in. What exactly do people think the risk is? I don't get it.


Let's just say, I hope you never do have a catastrophic event in SPD's. Are platforms for everyone? NO! Can you balance check in SPD's reliably? I sincerely doubt it. Can I stick with my bike with platforms? I do each and every ride. 
If I were riding either road or CX, I'd prolly go SPD however I do neither. I do demand a trialsy undertone to every ride and SPD just makes that straight up dangerous. 
SPD specific shoes are akin to gettin me to wear wingtips, just fvcking no although, these days there are a limited few options that are not so uncomfortable as traditional.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

plummet said:


> I use both. But did many years of xc and spd's before switching to dh with flats and then a mixture of both, now i'm heavy enduro leaning to dh. I'll spd up for lots of pedalling and flat up for lots of tech.
> 
> I'm using a standard pair of skate shoes and $15 ebay pedals. They work fine.
> 
> Now the most important thing you need to learn is the flat pedal bunny hop. That teaches you to how to lock your feet onto the pedals. Then once mastered use that technique even when you are using spds.


TGS on platforms and you're on your game!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BansheeRune said:


> Let's just say, I hope you never do have a catastrophic event in SPD's.


I've had bunches of catastrophic events on mountain bikes and the fact that I was using spd's was the least of my worries, never had a problem separating from the bike.

As far as comfort goes a good pair of spd shoes is as good as it gets for me. To each his own.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Lopaka said:


> There is no doubt that there are some guys, somewhere, that are fast on flats. They are, certainly, the exception. I contend that 99% of riders on flats will be not only faster clipped in, but will be better riders overall. Sorry, it's science.
> 
> It cracks me up when someone has gone from clipped in to flats describe how they constantly lift their foot off the pedal when they are riding, like it is some kind of defect or disease they have contracted. It's something they think they need to be "cured" of. The very fact that they do this is proof of the advantage of being clipped in. Mashing pedals is no virtue and generating power on the backside of the pedal stroke is no vice.
> 
> ...


Science and ultimate speed are not part of the pedal decision for me. It's about personal preference and what works best for you. For me that is most definitely flats for off road riding. I have way more fun, and I am a better rider on challenging trails.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Hey now, don't be calling someone's overvaluing of one fact, and disregard for other facts, as science. I believe that there's a better word for that.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> Hey now, don't be calling someone's overvaluing of one fact, and disregard for other facts, as science. I believe that there's a better word for that.


2 words...

I can't stand flats.
{science warning}When I pull up, the gravitational bond between the pedal and the shoe is broken and my foot comes off.{/science warning}
Doesn't happen with clips.


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## Alex (May 1, 2004)

I've just recently joined the 50+ club and have always used flat pedals.

I made the mistake a few years ago of thinking that longer pins = better grip. I got similar (but lesser) injuries as those shown above when I slipped off the pedals twice, and quickly went back to standard-length pins and haven't slipped since.

I use DMR V8's, now on my second set.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> 2 words...
> 
> I can't stand flats.
> {science warning}When I pull up, the gravitational bond between the pedal and the shoe is broken and my foot comes off.{/science warning}
> Doesn't happen with clips.


Which two words were we supposed to look at?


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> 2 words...
> 
> I can't stand flats.
> {science warning}When I pull up, the gravitational bond between the pedal and the shoe is broken and my foot comes off.{/science warning}
> Doesn't happen with clips.


Interesting. I am able to bunny hop and keep my feet on the pedals just fine with flats. If you can't then sounds like clips are a better choice for you.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> Hey now, don't be calling someone's overvaluing of one fact, and disregard for other facts, as science. I believe that there's a better word for that.





evasive said:


> Which two words were we supposed to look at?


That...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Skooks said:


> Interesting. I am able to bunny hop and keep my feet on the pedals just fine with flats. If you can't then sounds like clips are a better choice for you.


So can I.
But I can't pull up on flats up a steep climb.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

plummet said:


> Now the most important thing you need to learn is the flat pedal bunny hop. That teaches you to how to lock your feet onto the pedals. Then once mastered use that technique even when you are using spds.


this for sure!!!

rode flats...as I always do...last night and this morning!!!


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I am as fast, or faster, up a hill using a modern day full suspension bike with flat pedals vs. strong riders with hard tails and clips with XC insipired geometry bikes.

Pedals have nothing to do with how fast a person can get up a hill.

I know those that use them feel like they are faster, and perhaps there really is a _marginal _gain. Flats aren't for all, clipless aren't for all.

On my road bike when I try to _pull _(which isn't even correct per science), my pulling leg gets tired so fast that I start to slow down from fatigue. 
I can stand and mash (push/pull) up a hill on the road bike, but I also have traction to put down that kind of power. It's not a calculated power delivery like is required on a slippery dirt/rocky climb.

For several years it's baffled me how such serious arguments ensue from a choice of pedal. A lot of it, among friends, is friendly banter but none of my friends have flat out told me how stupid I am for not converting to clipless.

I feel like I am too goofy on a bike to want clipless. A riding friend is really good with clipless and he wheelies for days and does a lot of goofing off, however he's been doin this for a long long time, and races. His confidence is far superior to mine. I can unclip no problem on a road bike, but I don't know how, when I'm doing wheeling practice in the street at home, how I won't end up lying in the street bleeding out because my balance was off. 
When I switch between bikes it takes a few attempts to get the balance point sorted out, and dealing with the big differences in tire width.

Anyway, each of us has reasons why we prefer one or another. I'm not afraid to try both. I have clipless on a road bike and is enjoyable, but only because they came with the bike. I'd be happy on flats. I don't feel a need to switch to clipless on MTB. I may swap pedals from road bike to MTB once day when I decide to ride a flat trail and keep the ride boring with both wheels on the ground, just to see how much _faster _I am.

Hopefully we can all get along one of these days.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> Pedals have nothing to do with how fast a person can get up a hill.


Of course they do. How much? Not enough for most people to worry about but if you're racing it definitely matters for riders at the pointy end. Like you said, marginal gains.

The fact that you can beat riders up a hill only means that your stronger. And of course we can all get along, I could personally care less what kind of pedal (or any other bike part) anyone else uses.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

As many of you have said, ride whatever floats your boat -- unless you're racing XC in southern Wyoming/northern Colorado -- then you definitely should use flats...


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## Nonk (Oct 8, 2015)

I ride both several times a week. I use clips on my cc bike. I switch from flats to clipless often on my enduro bike depending on the terrain I'm riding. I found recently that the shoes I'm on really makes a difference on the clipless pedals, I don't like using my lighter shoes on the enduro bike, a burlier shoe gives me better contact and is more forgiving if I miss a clip in. Flats help me focus on keeping my heels down in the chunder and cornering and just help me ride smoothly.

I find that switching helps keep me fresher at everything. As an old roadie, I like to keep my pedal stroke nice and round - it's not push/pull
As an old BMX racer, flats help me keep my weight balanced on my feet and manipulate the bike in the air with my handlebars instead of cheating with my feet.

On flats, definitely use a good flat shoe, it really helps. You'll also find that pulling is somewhat possible on flats. Its a motion like scraping dogpoo off of your shoe, you kind of scrape your foot back and as your heel comes up you keep the ball of your foot engaged in the pins. You won't get 360 degrees of power, but you'll pedal smoother.

I really don't have a preference, they both let me have fun.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Ptor said:


> As many of you have said, ride whatever floats your boat -- unless you're racing XC in southern Wyoming/northern Colorado -- then you definitely should use flats...


I enjoy my pedals flat, not my tires.


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## JimmyAsheville (Oct 21, 2018)

He be like the running son on The Incredibles


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

I rode flats from kindergarten to 4th grade. Are you still riding kids pedals? I sometimes do, but not often.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> I rode flats from kindergarten to 4th grade. Are you still riding kids pedals? I sometimes do, but not often.


Are you asking everybody in this thread that hasn't answered "clipless" that question?


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Forest Rider said:


> Are you asking everybody in this thread that hasn't answered "clipless" that question?


no, just making a obscure point. I started on a one speed steel with flats and carried 110 papers seven days a week. Moved on to a five speed with toe clips. Then the double came out and I was on a ten speed, fourteen speed, then came the triples with nine out back, then 11, then 12 and now 12 with electrics. But somehow single chain rings are all the rage and even single speeds are becoming a bit more popular. And the flats.......so as almost everyone here says ride what you like but keep in perspective the history of our equipment and why the changes in equipment evolved. There was a perceived need and stuff was built. So when old heads talk about using some of the best technology available and affordable, it is because we grew up on flats, single speeds and single chainrings. We clearly understand the benefits of these wonderful improvements over the years. Ride on.


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## mtbcat47 (Jan 2, 2019)

Pedalon2018 said:


> no, just making a obscure point. I started on a one speed steel with flats and carried 110 papers seven days a week. Moved on to a five speed with toe clips. Then the double came out and I was on a ten speed, fourteen speed, then came the triples with nine out back, then 11, then 12 and now 12 with electrics. But somehow single chain rings are all the rage and even single speeds are becoming a bit more popular. And the flats.......so as almost everyone here says ride what you like but keep in perspective the history of our equipment and why the changes in equipment evolved. There was a perceived need and stuff was built. So when old heads talk about using some of the best technology available and affordable, it is because we grew up on flats, single speeds and single chainrings. We clearly understand the benefits of these wonderful improvements over the years. Ride on.


Or maybe us old heads going back to flats have tried all the things and realize that there was nothing ever better than the flat pedals and single chainrings for the pure joy of bike riding...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Pedalon2018 said:


> no, just making a obscure point. I started on a one speed steel with flats and carried 110 papers seven days a week. Moved on to a five speed with toe clips. Then the double came out and I was on a ten speed, fourteen speed, then came the triples with nine out back, then 11, then 12 and now 12 with electrics. But somehow single chain rings are all the rage and even single speeds are becoming a bit more popular. And the flats.......so as almost everyone here says ride what you like but keep in perspective the history of our equipment and why the changes in equipment evolved. There was a perceived need and stuff was built. So when old heads talk about using some of the best technology available and affordable, it is because we grew up on flats, single speeds and single chainrings. We clearly understand the benefits of these wonderful improvements over the years. Ride on.


Since this is the 50+ forum, I don't think your experience is unusual. There are plenty of riders here who have experienced all the major developments that post-date balloon tires.

I'm in my mid-40s but when I got my first mountain bike, indexed shifting was the hot new thing. That was after BMX bikes and my dad's 3-speed Schwinn cruiser. My current trail bike is a 160/140 29er with a 1x11 drivetrain and flat pedals. And that's how I want it.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Well yes there is that but.....I enjoy the heck out of cycling no matter how many speeds, chainrings, frame material and even pedal. It is just some of the changes make me faster, more comfortable, able to climb steeper longer grades and the extra fun factor in almost never having to adjust my derailure.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

evasive said:


> Since this is the 50+ forum, I don't think your experience is unusual. There are plenty of riders here who have experienced all the major developments that post-date balloon tires.
> 
> I'm in my mid-40s but when I got my first mountain bike, indexed shifting was the hot new thing. That was after BMX bikes and my dad's 3-speed Schwinn cruiser. My current trail bike is a 160/140 29er with a 1x11 drivetrain and flat pedals. And that's how I want it.


Assuming your bike is used the way it was designed, I would be on flats too.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mtbcat47 said:


> Or maybe us old heads going back to flats have tried all the things and realize that there was nothing ever better than the flat pedals and single chainrings for the pure joy of bike riding...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


BAM!!!

I was never into overcomplicating things, and that is why I never gravitated to all of the tech. Also, I never got into racing. I always needed my bikes to be sturdy, easy to maintain, and to last a long time. I always felt that being attached to the bike was counter-intuitive to the way I rode. Not "wrong", but just not for me
I was definitely in the minority of all of my friends in that I did not care about speed, or racing. I was/am more into tech riding, tricks (in the past, not as much now since healing is more costly now) and getting out into the woods.


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

I have mountain bikes with flat pedals. One of the bikes has dropbars. Both are 29ers. I like rocky and rooty tech (up/down), drops, jumps, berms, gravel and road.

Regardless of either bike I ride, and whether it's Whistler, Fromme, Pisgah or my local trail or road, I wear the same flats.

Btw, I have worn flats since my bmx days in the late 70's.


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## mtbcat47 (Jan 2, 2019)

woodchips said:


> I have mountain bikes with flat pedals. One of the bikes has dropbars. Both are 29ers. I like rocky and rooty tech (up/down), drops, jumps, berms, gravel and road.
> 
> Regardless of either bike I ride, and whether it's Whistler, Fromme, Pisgah or my local trail or road, I wear the same flats.
> 
> Btw, I have worn flats since my bmx days in the late 70's.


Yup, what I've seen I'm my biking friends is this: If you grew up BMX racing and riding motocross, you tend to gravitate towards flats. If you never were a BMXer, never rode motocross, and your entry into the sport was road riding, you gravitate towards clips. There is no changing this in many people, which is fine. But as we get older our reflexes start to slow and our balance is not what it once was. I'm happy to be in the BMX/motocross prefer flats category as a dab can save one from a silly crash. My main riding partner prefers clipless and while he can climb extremely well (road biking background) the clipless leads him to silly crashes when for example the front wheel washes out in a corner, or he lands a small jump off balance.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Here is another reason clipless rock. I crashed yesterday five miles into my ride. Injured my knee to the point I could not bend it to pedal back to the truck but.....with my left foot firmly attached to the pedal, I was able to push pull back to the truck. Saved my day, even with the crash. Now home nursing my knee. No ride today.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know about those two, particularly the first one. Is there evidence supporting that?
> 
> Also I think the tester said he had something like 14 years experience riding flats.


Yea I don't agree with the first. Rode clipless for over 10 years, went back to flats a few years ago. Now as my knee is starting to bother me I went back to clipless for the float. Good shoe and good flats = no float.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

While I ride flats, I don't understand not being able to get out of clipless pedals, other than the initial learning curve. You just lift your foot off the pedal, I think pins & 5.10's* are harder to get out of. I used time atacs for ~20 years, started with the original shimano m737's, then various elastomer pedals...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

bsieb said:


> While I ride flats, I don't understand not being able to get out of clipless pedals, other than the initial learning curve. You just lift your foot off the pedal, I think pins & 5.10's* are harder to get out of. I used time atacs for ~20 years, started with the original shimano m737's, then various elastomer pedals...


So I'm riding in a endurance race, me on a muni; all others on a variety of mountain bikes because muni id stoopid, then along comes a local shop guy who is a fine XC racer, he buzzes by securely clipped into his pedals ... I find him ten minutes later hanging upside down from the edge of a drop off, hung up in the bushes, struggling to get his feet unclipped.

So yeah, no one ever has problems getting unclipped 

I use Race Face Chesters, nylon platforms with medium length pins, have used a variety of shoes over the years from converting clipless to soled, production shoes including FiveTen, Teva, Specialized, Shimano, etc... currently riding Shimano GR9.

I tend to choose shoes and pedals that provide a reasonable amount of grip and contact without excessive stickiness because there are times when I want to remove my foot in a hurry and I don't want to get stuck.

Just like clipless pedals, riding flat pedals takes practice to perfect, also finding the right combination to avoid being too loose or too stuck on a clipless is not unlike the process a rider goes through in finding the right flat pedal and shoe combo.

Too much of a good thing is too much, whether riding clipless or riding flats.

The big takeaway here is not that one set up is better than the other, but that neither choice is a bad choice, and more importantly, someone riding flat pedals can be just as successful racing or riding recreationally.

I do find it kinda funny how defensive folks get, as if their choice is somehow personal and any critique otherwise is an affront on them personally ... therapy maybe


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I DIdn't say no one ever has problems with clipless, I SAid I don't understand it. Your response did not change that. I currently ride flats, have for years, have no illusions about either, neither is perfect for all things.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Here is another reason clipless rock. I crashed yesterday five miles into my ride. Injured my knee to the point I could not bend it to pedal back to the truck but.....with my left foot firmly attached to the pedal, I was able to push pull back to the truck. Saved my day, even with the crash. Now home nursing my knee. No ride today.


yikes man....and that is nuts that you could do that with one leg...I hope my legs get even half-way to that point in the end


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Here is another reason clipless rock. I crashed yesterday five miles into my ride. Injured my knee to the point I could not bend it to pedal back to the truck but.....with my left foot firmly attached to the pedal, I was able to push pull back to the truck. Saved my day, even with the crash. Now home nursing my knee. No ride today.


I don't think it's the pedals that saved you. I think the fact that you have a tree trunk for a leg is what allowed you to ride back.

My whimpy legs would never allow me to be a one-legged mountain bike rider.

You rock. Took a few pages to understand why you think flat pedals should be discontinued, but it's finally understood how much of a beast you are.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Forest Rider said:


> I don't think it's the pedals that saved you. I think the fact that you have a tree trunk for a leg is what allowed you to ride back.
> 
> My whimpy legs would never allow me to be a one-legged mountain bike rider.
> 
> You rock. Took a few pages to understand why you think flat pedals should be discontinued, but it's finally understood how much of a beast you are.


Oh, yea. Some of you must have never ridden clipless. It was not hard to do. It was only 5 miles. I mostly push pull when I have two good legs. So I went slower today f course. About 8 mph.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I'd never ride with you as you put down 4x the power of me.

Sigh.....


P.S. Stop assuming people haven't tried the other side of the fence.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Oh, yea. Some of you must have never ridden clipless. It was not hard to do. It was only 5 miles. I mostly push pull when I have two good legs. So I went slower today f course. About 8 mph.


With both feet clipped in, I'm lucky to average 10 mph!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> I do find it kinda funny how defensive folks get, as if their choice is somehow personal and any critique otherwise is an affront on them personally ... therapy maybe


That's nothin' compared to the norm for roadies; one piece of apparel doesn't match everything else, and nobody will talk to you!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Radium said:


> That's nothin' compared to the norm for roadies; one piece of apparel doesn't match everything else, and nobody will talk to you!


Mostly just on the internet. I've been going on group road rides for over 30 years (off and on) and I've found roadies to be every bit as welcoming and friendly as mountain bikers.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

woodchips said:


> I have mountain bikes with flat pedals. One of the bikes has dropbars. Both are 29ers. I like rocky and rooty tech (up/down), drops, jumps, berms, gravel and road.
> 
> Regardless of either bike I ride, and whether it's Whistler, Fromme, Pisgah or my local trail or road, I wear the same flats.
> 
> Btw, I have worn flats since my bmx days in the late 70's.


What's the point of this post. I have 6 bikes, a carbon road, a steel road, a steel tourer/commuter, a steel HT, an aluminum HT and an aluminum FS. All have SPD. I use one pair of SPD shoes for warmer weather and a pair of Lake winter SPD shoes for winter. I have worn SPD for 29 years.

My experience adds nothing to the discussion of what works for others. Is works for me, that's all.


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## funkle (Sep 11, 2006)

I started with cleats & straps, and went clipless and have been my whole life. The few times I tried flats, it felt very awkward, like I was less one with the bike. Then when I did a set-up/lesson with Ian Massey last summer, the first thing he did was put flats on my bike, and explained that this is crucial to the whole approach he is teaching (which involves strategically rotating your body mass backwards to float your front wheel over obstacles). I diligently bought a pair of flat pedals (OneUp) and immersed myself i the method. It felt super awkward for several months, but now I wouldn't go back. It is just so much better in so many ways once you get used to it. Even the loss of efficiency is a fallacy if you're not racing. It's crucial to employ a good technique though. In Ian's words, "heels down" is a symptom of proper technique, not the technique in itself. When you drop your butt back and go for a feeling of downward tension down the backs of your legs, your heels will drop as a result.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Catmandoo said:


> *What's the point of this post*. I have 6 bikes, a carbon road, a steel road, a steel tourer/commuter, a steel HT, an aluminum HT and an aluminum FS. All have SPD. I use one pair of SPD shoes for warmer weather and a pair of Lake winter SPD shoes for winter. I have worn SPD for 29 years.
> 
> My experience adds nothing to the discussion of what works for others. Is works for me, that's all.


The day the thread was posted, OP realized there hadn't been an argument on MTBR that day.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Radium said:


> That's nothin' compared to the norm for roadies; one piece of apparel doesn't match everything else, and nobody will talk to you!


Oh yeah, I know there are other sports fans who are even more crazed and butt hurt that mountain bikers, but I still find it funny to see it on this forum cuz we're all a bunch of old codgers


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## funkle (Sep 11, 2006)

Radium said:


> That's nothin' compared to the norm for roadies; one piece of apparel doesn't match everything else, and nobody will talk to you!


I used to be one of those guys. Now I ride my road bike wearing my MTB gear. And it has platform pedals & a flat bar


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

funkle said:


> I used to be one of those guys. Now I ride my road bike wearing my MTB gear. And it has platform pedals & a flat bar


My MTB has drop bars, clipless and I wear lycra...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

funkle said:


> I used to be one of those guys. Now I ride my road bike wearing my MTB gear. And it has platform pedals & a flat bar


I was on a road ride a few days ago with some pretty serious riders, but there was also someone there with flat pedals, another with a grungy CamelBak, several people with unmatched kits. Guess what? Everyone talked to them and we all had a great time.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I ride my roadie in Hybrid shorts (more or less board shorts). A proper cycle jersey (I don't like the material flapping, and they have the back pockets) and clipless SPD MTB shoes/pedals.

I remember the first time I met the friend of my girl friend -he was on a ride same day as us. I remember he said "are you just getting into cycling". haha

Wearing the same clothing scenario, I was the leader of a train one day and the same person was happy with our speed (he was on recovery from race training for the first half of his ride before joining us). I'm not fast, but we were holding an average between 17&18 mph. 

I have bike friends despite my oddball gear choice.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

62 and first time on flats the other day. With only skater type shoes....and egads, on an ebike! Felt good I'm sure the ebike helped with part of the test ride on them and I'm sure they helped to abort a major injury during a mishap. Cant see using them on my XC bikes but do see an advantage using them with a play bike and the appropriate sticky sole shoe! 😎👍


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## Pipeliner (Oct 30, 2018)

I ride clipless on my road and hardtail bikes but went to flats on my FS MTB. Had to get some 510 free rider pro shoes because of cramping and foot re-positioning problems while riding. Those new shoes and my metal spike flats are great. I feel much safer in really tough and rocky terrain yet can spin hard on climbs without losing my foot position (which was a problem with regular shoes). They haven’t eliminated foot cramps entirely but they made such an improvement that I’m sure I couldn’t ride with regular shoes again.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Pipeliner said:


> I ride clipless on my road and hardtail bikes but went to flats on my FS MTB. Had to get some 510 free rider pro shoes because of cramping and foot re-positioning problems while riding. Those new shoes and my metal spike flats are great. I feel much safer in really tough and rocky terrain yet can spin hard on climbs without losing my foot position (which was a problem with regular shoes). They haven't eliminated foot cramps entirely but they made such an improvement that I'm sure I couldn't ride with regular shoes again.


That would be preaching to the choir here. There are more shoes with that sort of style on the market now so fit options should be improved.

FWIW, I've got some OneUp pedals in addition to 3 sets of Chester, Welgo and Crank Bros flats. The OneUp are worth considering as much as we love the Chesters. That opposite curve really works because of how often your ball of foot is ahead of the spindle. Other pedals have same shape. The other thing that stood out is seeing the OneUp have rebuild kits I didn't see for Chesters.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

I got mentally programmed in the 80's to ride with clips and straps. In the 90's I tried repeatedly to retrain my brain to twist instead of pulling backwards to no avail. By the 2000's I switched to flat pedals which there were very few of. Today there are a plethora to choose from and I ride on RaceFace Chesters & love them.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Just got a new pair of 5-10's . They are great.


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## HawkGX (May 24, 2012)

51 now and have ridden flats exclusively since I started MTBing 7 years ago... until last week at least. Finally put clipless in my hardtail (after my son-in-law kept reminding me that I’d been talking about trying it for some time).

Only 2 rides in on clipless, on very tame buff trails so far. Very different feeling vs. flats for sure. 

First impression is that the clipless makes me have a more “all business” mindset while flats feel like I’m just out having fun. Definitely a more relaxed frame of mind with the flats. Could be the newness of the clips so we’ll see how it goes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Radium said:


> Just got a new pair of 5-10's . They are great.


We all know that.
Maybe you meant they still smell great


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

33red said:


> We all know that.
> Maybe you meant they still smell great


Yeah, but the NPR series on sex and marriage made me realize some discover that stuff really late too.

I've been through the original type, variations of the Freerider model, and what I think are pros. Most of my excitement is when the new ones don't stink, and now I think I have to decide between street wear and pure biking versions. The cloth versions get wet with some riding. The all vinyl versions are a late fall through early spring or trail work version.

How did I make it through the 1960s and much of the 70s with 2-3 types of shoes?


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## cowdog (Apr 14, 2004)

Fun thread. I really like clipless for most rides but have used platforms on and off for shorter rides for years. I finally picked up a pair of 5.10 shoes, and the difference in grip is night and day. I place my feet on the pedals and there is no unwanted movement or rotation. This is the first time I could see wearing flats on longer rides. I am putting more emphasis on mtbing after years of modest riding and one of my goals is to work on my skills. I see benefits to riding flats.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

I used to switch back & forth depending on where I was riding but Ive been riding just with flats this year.

Spank Spikes with 510 Freeriders.

One benefit I've noticed from using a thin pedal with flat shoes is I've had to lower my saddle a bit for proper leg extension. I'm a long legged guy so anything I can do to get lower on the bike is a huge deal for me.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

jeffw-13 said:


> One benefit I've noticed from using a thin pedal with flat shoes is I've had to lower my saddle a bit for proper leg extension. I'm a long legged guy so anything I can do to get lower on the bike is a huge deal for me.


Getting lower and more forward was my ONLY motivation in buying the oversized flat pedals (Catalyst) mentioned by the OP. They put your arch over the pedal spindle - a big change from SPD. I'm all legs plus my knees insist on a slack seat tube angle, so with SPDs I end up with an annoying rearward bias. I figured the Catalyst pedals might fix that - and they did, so much so that I now need a longer frame. But that's OK because I was about to give up on geared riding altogether.


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## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm 53 and have been riding MTB for about 6(ish) years. Because I had some background and experience road biking I started MTB riding clipped in. I never really developed as much confidence as I would have liked riding technical terrain, and finally decided a year and a half ago that I'd try flat pedals. Confidence instantly went up, and I decided right away I would not ever go back to clips. Now, after riding flats for the past year and a half, I've been thinking I want to buy some more clipless pedals and just choose what to ride / wear based on the type of ride and terrain I'm on. I think both offer different benefits.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Ryder1 said:


> Getting lower and more forward was my ONLY motivation in buying the oversized flat pedals (Catalyst) mentioned by the OP. They put your arch over the pedal spindle - a big change from SPD. I'm all legs plus my knees insist on a slack seat tube angle, so with SPDs I end up with an annoying rearward bias. I figured the Catalyst pedals might fix that - and they did, so much so that I now need a longer frame. But that's OK because I was about to give up on geared riding altogether.


Single speed is another story entirely for me. As hilly as it is around here I wouldn't ride SS without clipless pedals.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

jeffw-13 said:


> Single speed is another story entirely for me. As hilly as it is around here I wouldn't ride SS without clipless pedals.


Being in the heart of a mountain range, I ride my SS daily with a pair of 5-10 Guide Tennies and a pair of VP 001's with no issue. I can get trialsy and have one hell of a good time without a massive hospital bill. I can position at will where I expect to rather than where a clipless dictates. The other issue is the damn clipless compatible shoes are absurdly priced.

Again, pedal choice is as subjective as tire pressure...

Ride, have good times and a Cheshire Cat grin the whole time, doesn't get better than that! 
If a setup works for ya, use it in good health.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

I like being able to move my feet around on flats, it seems to protect my knees. I also like the fast escape abilities. Im not quite 50 just yet, but will be riding when I turn.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

jeffw-13 said:


> Single speed is another story entirely for me. As hilly as it is around here I wouldn't ride SS without clipless pedals.


I'm wrestling with that dilemma right now since using Catalyst pedals on a SS means I'd need a longer frame. I do find clipless better for instant acceleration, which no doubt is critical when climbing on a SS. Fortunately SS frames can be had cheap.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

BansheeRune said:


> Being in the heart of a mountain range, I ride my SS daily with a pair of 5-10 Guide Tennies and a pair of VP 001's with no issue. I can get trialsy and have one hell of a good time without a massive hospital bill. I can position at will where I expect to rather than where a clipless dictates. The other issue is the damn clipless compatible shoes are absurdly priced.
> 
> Again, pedal choice is as subjective as tire pressure...
> 
> ...


It's a conditioning issue for me. I need every watt I can get on the SS 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Slowdownhill (Oct 20, 2015)

Ridden clipless for years. Pedals and shoes fell apart at the same time so I moved to flats. Still coming off of the pedals occasionally, but as rides move on I am able to concentrate more on picking the line and cleaning the obstacles as opposed to riding with one eye on the trail and the other on the bail. I am the sorriest mountain biker in 3 counties, but am having a killer good time on flats.


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## Delaware Guy (Jun 12, 2019)

I rode with clipless for 30 years but just got an ebike and put flats on it. I'm sixty years old so I'm still not sure it is right for me. It is nice to just take my foot off, but I'm still falling over on occasion, typically as a result of low speed combined with indecision... just like with clipless!


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## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

Decades of clipless here, too. Finally replaced my ancient Santa Cruz Superlight with a new-fangled Salsa Horsethief. Put on some Chesters with 5 10s. I have persevered for a month now, and I still hate the flats. I feel like I’m sitting on the bike, rather than part of it. My feet are all over the place. As there are a few advantages to flats, it makes me wonder about the hybrid clipless/flats like the XT PD-T8000 SPD. Anyone going hybrid?


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Hambone70 said:


> Decades of clipless here, too. Finally replaced my ancient Santa Cruz Superlight with a new-fangled Salsa Horsethief. Put on some Chesters with 5 10s. I have persevered for a month now, and I still hate the flats. I feel like I'm sitting on the bike, rather than part of it. My feet are all over the place. As there are a few advantages to flats, it makes me wonder about the hybrid clipless/flats like the XT PD-T8000 SPD. Anyone going hybrid?


I ride both types. I hated the one side clip types. They were not great as flat pedals and took too much time and concentration in a lot of riding circumstances. They were best for me in a commuting scenario.

My suggestion is some skills building. Can you get that suspension (or any) bike around a pump track without pedaling? Can you do some jumping - doesn't have to be high - with flats? Even after decades of riding and always taking advanced trails I confess that skills building made a difference with flat pedals. Learning how to do that stuff then taught me how to ride better with the feet belt pedals.

My usage is clip//cleat for fast and easy just riding along stuff and flats to maximize fun and safety.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Hambone70 said:


> Decades of clipless here, too. Finally replaced my ancient Santa Cruz Superlight with a new-fangled Salsa Horsethief. Put on some Chesters with 5 10s. I have persevered for a month now, and I still hate the flats. I feel like I'm sitting on the bike, rather than part of it. My feet are all over the place. As there are a few advantages to flats, it makes me wonder about the hybrid clipless/flats like the XT PD-T8000 SPD. Anyone going hybrid?


You changed all the variables at once. Just going to flats requires a few weeks of adjustment without any other changes. If you're more comfortable clipped in, my advice would be to space out the learning curves and hold off on flats until you're feeling more comfortable on the new bike.

Hybrid pedals are the worst of both worlds.


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

Hambone70 said:


> Decades of clipless here, too. Finally replaced my ancient Santa Cruz Superlight with a new-fangled Salsa Horsethief. Put on some Chesters with 5 10s. I have persevered for a month now, and I still hate the flats. I feel like I'm sitting on the bike, rather than part of it. My feet are all over the place. As there are a few advantages to flats, it makes me wonder about the hybrid clipless/flats like the XT PD-T8000 SPD. Anyone going hybrid?


I don't know what size of foot you have but when I tried out the Chesters I hated them. They were too small for my size 13 feet. I am much happier with my Stamp 3 Larges. I won't ever be switching back to SPD.


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## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

evasive said:


> You changed all the variables at once. Just going to flats requires a few weeks of adjustment without any other changes. If you're more comfortable clipped in, my advice would be to space out the learning curves and hold off on flats until you're feeling more comfortable on the new bike.
> 
> Hybrid pedals are the worst of both worlds.


It's all good. I had to use the Superlight today as the Horsethief had a flat tire. It felt like a cramped toy! I'm getting used to the flats, too. They really help to alleviate knee pain I as having with clipless.


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## Dave in Sharpsburg (Dec 21, 2003)

Been running iron cross flats for years now

https://images.app.goo.gl/sV6BHFvZ5Lson6JU9

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Delaware Guy (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm 60 and ride flats (Chesters) on my ebike and my Stumpjumper.... I do occasionally run time clipless but I find the flats are just more user friendly.... I rode clipless for decades.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Tried flats on the full suspension bike a couple of weeks ago.
It really bought home to me how much I pull up when riding.

Back to clips.


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## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Flats only here... do have the old toe huggers on the Trek 830. But the my Full Squish has Chester’s and my HT has cheapo nylon flats with molded studs. No desire for clips.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> Tried flats on the full suspension bike a couple of weeks ago.
> It really bought home to me how much I pull up when riding.
> 
> Back to clips.


You can pull up on flats once you learn good technique. You can actually pedal with only one foot, but it's not easy. If cleats work better for you that's great though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Skooks said:


> You can pull up on flats once you learn good technique. You can actually pedal with only one foot, but it's not easy. If cleats work better for you that's great though.


That gets brought up now and then but I don't think you can compare the two as far as the ability to pull up is concerned. I can put down pretty decent power with only one leg using clipless and have held ~20mph uphill for a considerable time doing so, not sure something like that would be possible with flats.

Not saying that's necessarily a good thing, or that clipless is better, just that they're different in that respect.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

I just turned 50 I have ridden flats since forever.. I briefly 6~mos tried clips when I first started riding in the 90s and HAAATED it.. put a pair of wellgo bmx pedals on my old stumpjumper and never looked back.. 

I can't see a scenario where I would consider clipless pedals again.


510 Freeriders and Giant Pinner DH pedals here.. the Giant pedals appear to be rebranded VP Harriers from the looks of it.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Skooks said:


> You can pull up on flats once you learn good technique. You can actually pedal with only one foot, but it's not easy. If cleats work better for you that's great though.


I even splashed out on some $30 pedals and $15 flat soled MTB shoes.

I'll try them some more, maybe they'll suit me better on the rigid SS.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Heist30 said:


> Flats only here... do have the old toe huggers on the Trek 830. But the my Full Squish has Chester's and my HT has cheapo nylon flats with molded studs. No desire for clips.


I agree- no desire for cleats. I tried them for a summer years ago and kept crashing and falling over. I simply could not retrain my brain to twist instead of pulling back. Years ago I road clips in the 80's and that became ingrained. I have Chester's on my 2 bikes but am looking for something wider for my 12ee feet.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

I borrowed my son's Heckler with Raceface Chesters and think its time I switched to flats.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've been riding on flats for a few years now. I still crash, but never due to a pedal issue.
I'm 65.


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## Mycopath (Sep 2, 2019)

I'm 80 using flats on both my fat ebike (Radrover) and on my new Trek Roscoe 8. I usually wear MTB shoes which help me stick to the pedals.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Hmmm Road and xc hardtail = clips. All mtn FS and fatty = flats. Just got to remember to grab the right shoes.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Mycopath said:


> I'm 80 using flats on both my fat ebike (Radrover) and on my new Trek Roscoe 8. I usually wear MTB shoes which help me stick to the pedals.


wow- you must be the only 80 year old MTBer I've ever heard of! Or this is a joke...?

"Mycopath
mtbr member
Reputation:
Join Date
Sep 2019
Posts
1"


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## quite.right (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm in my mid fiftys, a fart but not old 
Interesting thread here...

I grinded a lot of miles in the past clipless and changed to more techy, trailsy trails in the mountains. Riding clipless is not a bad thing but the disadvantages for me are i.e. I have difficulties to get back on the second clip after stopping in techy sections.
Another thing is the limited numbers of good shoe models for hike-a-bike and clipless.
So I would like to try platform pedals now and use my approach shoes.
What I understand is that on platform pedals the position of the feet is changed to more center. This will be a challenge because I'm a mountain trailrunner also used to have pressure on my toes and foot balls.
And the way the bike is handled by feet is changed. I will try trackstands and bunny hops.
What else can I do?

I'm afraid of the injuries from the sharp pins and would like to get some recommendations for light and soft shin guards. Unfortunately my calfs measure 16,14 inches / 41cm. So I need size XL or XXL but have short legs for this size 

Thanx for any recommendations,
quite.right


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

quite.right said:


> I'm in my mid fiftys, a fart but not old
> Interesting thread here...
> 
> I grinded a lot of miles in the past clipless and changed to more techy, trailsy trails in the mountains. Riding clipless is not a bad thing but the disadvantages for me are i.e. I have difficulties to get back on the second clip after stopping in techy sections.
> ...


I'd start off with the fear of pins ... from experience I'd say commit rather than half measures. Unless your foot slips then it's academic and far worse things happen than ripped up shins (and the bone itself is strong)... don't get me wrong it can hurt like heck but the length of pins OR material isn't REALLY a factor. Plastic will rip the skin as well as steel...

I've got a few scratches but only ever had one HUGE one and that was my own stupidity ... I had a 1/2 inch of super-sticky mud on my shoes, wheels etc. and then rode through some stone chips. Stupidly decided sending a big drop would shake the ones off the wheels and frames free ... stupidly not realising my feet were covered in stone chips...

Anyway... only reason to mention that (unless you are as stupid I as I was) is I got some seperate shin pads whilst stuff healed (everything takes longer now)... and these were only about $20 on discount.. but they were just thick enough to stop a pin .. I didn't really think it through at the time they were just on discount but retrospectively they only need to be that thick. Unlike my kneepads where I go in full whimp and use the full hard + soft combo I think just thick enough to stop a pin is thick enough.

I no longer really bother with them... though conceivably they'd be good for briars as well. I just don't really slip on the pedals

The main reason I don't bother is I no longer really land anywhere near the hard bike and pins... going to flats has also gone alongside with bailing a lot earlier and the difference between unclip and bail and just bail is huge (less about the unclipping itself and more because the action of unclipping and pushing the bike away are different actions)

So foot position ... assuming you commit on shoes and pedals (rather than dip your toe in) .. takes some getting used to but what I found more was being unable to move your feet at all... there is no wiggle like clipped in unless you lift

This took me ages to get used to after being clipped in... firstly your feet are not in exactly the same position EVERY time... and I used to let this bother me. Second ... you can't just move them.

I'd say the BIGGEST tip .. you need to convince yourself a tiny bit of difference doesn't actually matter. I found that the hardest bit. Even 1/8" felt WRONG and after a lifetime of my feet being in exactly the same place it felt like an inch... and like the bike was going to do something all by itself if I did whatever technical feature... so I'd end up obsessing about getting my feet right.. instead of thinking about whatever technical feature.

As I remember I basically had to force myself and just do some easy stuff first and deliberately not get my feet right but just live with it. Easier said than done when you reach stubborn older age.


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## rmac (Oct 26, 2004)

Steve-XtC said:


> I'd start off with the fear of pins ... from experience I'd say commit rather than half measures. Unless your foot slips then it's academic and far worse things happen than ripped up shins (and the bone itself is strong)... don't get me wrong it can hurt like heck but the length of pins OR material isn't REALLY a factor. Plastic will rip the skin as well as steel...
> 
> I've got a few scratches but only ever had one HUGE one and that was my own stupidity ... I had a 1/2 inch of super-sticky mud on my shoes, wheels etc. and then rode through some stone chips. Stupidly decided sending a big drop would shake the ones off the wheels and frames free ... stupidly not realising my feet were covered in stone chips...
> 
> ...


Adding a few thoughts:
Protection: I don't have much trouble with the pedals hitting my shins but I do have a problem with them digging holes in my calves. It doesn't come from slipping off the pedals but from failing on steep technical climbs - get to point where I have to bail, lock brakes, put foot down and angle of ground means calf slides back into pedal pins. Probably better ways to bail but challenging in steep technical climbing. I recycled some old volley ball forearm guards https://www.amazon.com/McDavid-Hexp...=gateway&sprefix=volley+ball+e,aps,172&sr=8-5 which are light and just enough protection and they are staying up just fine.

For foot position on the pedal, I do ride mid-foot over the pedal but also ball of foot over the pedal - this is where I want my foot in technical situations because I don't want too much toe over the front of the pedal and it allows me to pull back better than when mid-foot over the pedal which also helps when I am trying to finesse (ha!) technical climbing sections.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

I love pins = no fears. Race Face Chesters as I previously posted are my choice. I only wish they were wider. I've tried other metal cage pedals and don't like the feel. But it bears mentioning that once I switched to flat shoes (5.10 Freeriders) from low top hikers 
my pedals felt even better.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

quite.right said:


> I'm in my mid fiftys, a fart but not old
> Interesting thread here...
> 
> I grinded a lot of miles in the past clipless and changed to more techy, trailsy trails in the mountains. Riding clipless is not a bad thing but the disadvantages for me are i.e. I have difficulties to get back on the second clip after stopping in techy sections.
> ...


"Heels down" is a good mantra to learn the correct flat pedal foot position. 1. You can't do it if you are on the balls of your feet. 2. It forces you to apply pressure which will keep your feet on the pedals. 3. It forces you into a better body position that is more well balanced when descending.

I teach beginners and one of the biggest "AHA" (light bulb) moments is when I get students off the front of their feet and more centered on the pedal. Instantly they feel more stable and well balanced. Their weight become more centered. They put less weight on the bars and have less death grip. Most importantly they don't feel like they are going to go over the front of the bike.

One drill we use is to have a helper hold the front of the bike upright. Have student in a off-saddle balanced stance. Have them put feet in clip/toe position and try to balance on pedals while taking hands off the bars. Now have them move feet into a flat pedal position and do the same. Basically, they can't do it (take hands off bars and balance) when feet are in the clip/toe position, bu they can when feet are better positioned in the flat position.


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## Delaware Guy (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm 60 and switched from Shimano to Time clipless but then went downhilling with my son in VT and realized I needed flats.... bought a set and put them on, took them off after the Vermont trip, then put them back on a week later, they haven't been off since. I'm running Chesters on my 2020 Levo Comp emtb and on my 19 Stumpjumper. I'm also wearing 510's (not sure which model, they are dark blue) and I have found it is absolutely the best possible combination... I nail my shins and calves now and then but in 30+ years of mountain biking blood has been a constant, regardless of pedals....


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

quite.right said:


> I'm in my mid fiftys, a fart but not old
> Interesting thread here...
> 
> I grinded a lot of miles in the past clipless and changed to more techy, trailsy trails in the mountains. Riding clipless is not a bad thing but the disadvantages for me are i.e. I have difficulties to get back on the second clip after stopping in techy sections.
> ...


I am upnorth so i have a Specialized Fatbike. It came with plastic pedals(with plastic pins). These are great in winter to avoid cold transfer. If you do not ride agressively they do the job all year. Probably cheap if you want to give them a shot. With any flat pedal a proper pair of shoes is a good idea. I like many love my 5-10. I only wear my helmet and a pair of volleyball kneepads. That is plenty for a non agressive rider.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

There is a recent video from Chain Reaction Cycles about new 5.10 shoes:


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## quite.right (Sep 29, 2016)

Thanx guys for your replies. I will definitely try the platforms.
Any suggestions for soft shin guards (prefered closed on the back side, with velcros)?


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

quite.right said:


> Thanx guys for your replies. I will definitely try the platforms.
> Any suggestions for soft shin guards (prefered closed on the back side, with velcros)?


I use G form pads= very pedal friendly & more of an all day all around pad vs a downhill type. They just sent me an email saying free shipping sitewide.


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## menzfirm (Sep 5, 2019)

510 Access Knit and Raceface Chesters. Really like the 510 Access as they appear more like a conventional shoe while still having Stealth sole. Very grippy combination.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I think people become dependent on clipless, then rationalize their value ... of course once your dependent it's hard to relearn flatbpedal skills, which can be used as a rationale for clipless beingbsuperior to flats.

I rode flats before there were clipless, I rode clips before there were clipless, I rode clipless for decades, and now I ride flats.

I don't ride clipless because I found no advantage to them and I am concerned about leg injury (acute and chronic).

About half my riding partners are on clipless. I have no issues riding with them, though I do find it's frustrating when they crash because they couldn't get out of their pedal fast enough ?



mtbcat47 said:


> Yup, what I've seen I'm my biking friends is this: If you grew up BMX racing and riding motocross, you tend to gravitate towards flats. If you never were a BMXer, never rode motocross, and your entry into the sport was road riding, you gravitate towards clips. There is no changing this in many people, which is fine. But as we get older our reflexes start to slow and our balance is not what it once was. I'm happy to be in the BMX/motocross prefer flats category as a dab can save one from a silly crash. My main riding partner prefers clipless and while he can climb extremely well (road biking background) the clipless leads him to silly crashes when for example the front wheel washes out in a corner, or he lands a small jump off balance.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

If you watch Friday Fails on Pink Bike, you will notice that every one that crashes is using flats!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

tom tom said:


> If you watch Friday Fails on Pink Bike, you will notice that every one that crashes is using flats!


We can look at things from different angles.
I am 61 so i have over 55 years pedaling. Last 3.5 fat/mountain bike.
5-10 on flats. I probably went OTB 10 times with nothing or 1-3 weeks till full recovery, no clinic visit. I read a guy did a scorpion. I am not sure but my guess is he went OTB but with his clipless setup there was no separation the bike was kind of over him and he broke his colar bone. I know a 2 miles per hour fall can cause a broken bone so this 1 case proves nothing but many consider themselves athletes copy what the real athletes do on TV and need that top performance tool in their mind.
My brother and his wife got serious injuries road riding in club, the peloton just create friends injuring friends. Not my style.
Do as you please, just do not fallow me closely when i fall it is my fault.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

33red said:


> We can look at things from different angles.
> I am 61 so i have over 55 years pedaling. Last 3.5 fat/mountain bike.
> 5-10 on flats. I probably went OTB 10 times with nothing or 1-3 weeks till full recovery, no clinic visit. I read a guy did a scorpion. I am not sure but my guess is he went OTB but with his clipless setup there was no separation the bike was kind of over him and he broke his colar bone. I know a 2 miles per hour fall can cause a broken bone so this 1 case proves nothing but many consider themselves athletes copy what the real athletes do on TV and need that top performance tool in their mind.
> My brother and his wife got serious injuries road riding in club, the peloton just create friends injuring friends. Not my style.
> Do as you please, just do not fallow me closely when i fall it is my fault.


Wow! Lot's of questions. First, What's a scorpion?


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

I had the Deity Compounds on my Transition Scout and liked em a lot - very light, pretty low profile, good grip. This was in 2017, and I used some very old 5-10's I had and some shoe glue to fix the soles. I'm currently running SPD's again, on my trail bike, but thinking about going back to flats, and will have to get some shoes of course.
We have a lot of climbing here in Boise, Idaho, but we also have a bike park and a new one being built, so I like having flats (and pads) for the park and enjoying riding (practicing/sessioning?) features we don't have on the foothills trails like berms, jumps, drops, skinnies, etc. Nice to not be clipped in sometimes and be able to move in different ways.

I don't remember feeling like I was losing any efficiency with the flats, and I learned a good pedal stroke years ago, and correct bunnyhop movement, and kind of like how flats make me maybe be a little more conscientious about the pedal stroke.

I definitely would try them during racing offseason (and Kudos to you for racing, or continuing to do so). I do think if I race XC again - if I can get back to that kind of shape! I will run clipless. Clipless on xc and xc racing bike, and flats on trail bike, or enduro bike.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wow! Lot's of questions. First, What's a scorpion?


He wrote that he was clipped. After a short test i decided to use flats so i am not sure. I guess he landed more or less flat on his chess and his legs were in the air like the animal scorpio tail in the air. His weight and the added weight of the bike made the impact enough to brake his colar bone. Decades ago on a motorcycle i knew separation from the bike is less risky when a crash happens.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

tom tom said:


> If you watch Friday Fails on Pink Bike, you will notice that every one that crashes is using flats!


Not true. I watch it every Friday and there are plenty of fails where people go over the bars and the bike rotates over with them and their feet are still on the clipless pedals.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

33red said:


> He wrote that he was clipped. After a short test i decided to use flats so i am not sure. I guess he landed more or less flat on his chess and his legs were in the air like the animal scorpio tail in the air. His weight and the added weight of the bike made the impact enough to brake his colar bone. Decades ago on a motorcycle i knew separation from the bike is less risky when a crash happens.


Got it, someone once fell while riding clipless. So what about these "friends injuring friends" in the peloton? What's that all about.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Got it, someone once fell while riding clipless. So what about these "friends injuring friends" in the peloton? What's that all about.


My brother seriously injured a shoulder when a guy infront of him put on the brakes instead of simply slowing down. They ride close to benefit from 1 in front cutting the wind and 4-9 behind. 2 years later my sister in law seriously injured an ankle. I am talking at 12 months to get pain free. And they just pile on. 1 to 10 might go down.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Clip-less pedals in most situations are more efficient and help torque management through the pedal stroke. Your inability to get out of them in an emergency takes training. It some crashes, it can happen so fast you cannot get out. A true downside. It you think these pedals are not more efficient, you are probably doing it incorrectly. Ride what you like but putting in energy in one side at a time is not the best technique if efficiency is your goal. One of my bikes has pedals that are flat on one side and clip-less on the other side for the rough stuff. Fair compromise. If you own or have used a power meter, it will display your effectiveness of clip-less vs flat in a very short time period. Not really in dispute.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Ride what you like but putting in energy in one side at a time is not the best technique if efficiency is your goal.


Tests have shown that clipless are faster in certain situations (e.g. sprinting) but for the most part pros just mash one pedal at a time. Power meters show that the smooth, even pedal stroke is mostly a myth.

There have been some slow speed mishaps where I remained clipped but I've never stayed attached during a high speed fall. No thinking required.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

33red said:


> My brother seriously injured a shoulder when a guy infront of him put on the brakes instead of simply slowing down. They ride close to benefit from 1 in front cutting the wind and 4-9 behind. 2 years later my sister in law seriously injured an ankle. I am talking at 12 months to get pain free. And they just pile on. 1 to 10 might go down.


Yep, riding bikes can be dangerous. I've had bad falls on the road and the trail.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I've never found a power benefit from clipless.

I eventually try drawing 'that circle' -it works. I go faster. For about a minute then I'm too tired because the upstroke muscles are too small and weak to sustain any effort.

I am a one-leg-at-a-time rider. Never used it on MTB and can think of zero benefit. I felt confident on the road bike down a hill with clipless but brain has that block to allowing comfort on MTB.

I'm the only one in our group that rides flats and it's not like I'm being left behind on chunk or speed.
It's all about what one is comfortable riding with.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Many can and do ride flat or clipless without really thinking about it. Which then makes it more of a discretionary thing. I don't enjoy high cadence riding on flats, but prefer them for other reasons much of the time. Pedals for courses... get comfortable with both.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

After riding only clipped in for decades I started riding flats a couple of years ago just to help improve skills and get rid of some bad habits. Since then, I've been almost exclusively riding on flat pedals. I do feel like I lose a little bit of climbing power on flats, but for everything else I much prefer flats now.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Tests have shown that clipless are faster in certain situations (e.g. sprinting) but for the most part pros just mash one pedal at a time. Power meters show that the smooth, even pedal stroke is mostly a myth.
> 
> There have been some slow speed mishaps where I remained clipped but I've never stayed attached during a high speed fall. No thinking required.


tests show even pedal strokes is mostly a myth??? My direct experience showed horrible even pedaling when I first hooked up a power meter. Now, after training with one, over time my stroke is so much more even after just three months. Your experience that some have with week muscles for the upstroke is an indicator you need some feedback to train better and get fitter. Pull a spark plug wire on a two cyclinder engine and see how well it performs. Even common sense tells one push pulling is the better way to ride, especially when heavy torque is applied to our bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Pedalon2018 said:


> tests show even pedal strokes is mostly a myth??? My direct experience showed horrible even pedaling when I first hooked up a power meter. Now, after training with one, over time my stroke is so much more even after just three months. Your experience that some have with week muscles for the upstroke is an indicator you need some feedback to train better and get fitter. Pull a spark plug wire on a two cyclinder engine and see how well it performs. Even common sense tells one push pulling is the better way to ride, especially when heavy torque is applied to our bike.


Sounds logical but things aren't always what they seem, in this test the pros had the most uneven pedal stroke. The jury's still out.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sounds logical but things aren't always what they seem, in this test the pros had the most uneven pedal stroke. The jury's still out.


Very true observation that things are not always as they seem. However, usually what you see is what you get. Geologists assume the processes we observe now occur at about the same rate 4 billions years ago. Last week researchers concluded that cats actually bond with their caretakers. Three years of research to conclude what every cat owner already knows.

So in this case, I can see on a display that is am applying more equal inputs to each pedal. When torque loads are high, the bike stays balanced and it seems to help me get up the grade. So am I now faster? Too hard to tell due to aging, injury and lack of analysis but it seems so. The bike with the power meter also has Crank Brother's Double Shot 3 that has a nice flat surface on the flip side. I mostly use the flat side when I jump on the bike with with street shoes. Everything is a compromise.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Pedalon2018 said:


> My direct experience showed horrible even pedaling when I first hooked up a power meter. Now, after training with one, over time my stroke is so much more even after just three months.


How can a power meter show horrible pedaling? Do you mean low power? And how can a regular power meter determine whether or not your pedal stroke is smooth? It can show if you're applying equal power to each crankarm but it can't determine how evenly you're applying the power through the pedal stroke.



Pedalon2018 said:


> Very true observation that things are not always as they seem. However, usually what you see is what you get. Geologists assume the processes we observe now occur at about the same rate 4 billions years ago. Last week researchers concluded that cats actually bond with their caretakers. Three years of research to conclude what every cat owner already knows.
> 
> So in this case, I can see on a display that is am applying more equal inputs to each pedal. When torque loads are high, the bike stays balanced and it seems to help me get up the grade. So am I now faster? Too hard to tell due to aging, injury and lack of analysis but it seems so. The bike with the power meter also has Crank Brother's Double Shot 3 that has a nice flat surface on the flip side. I mostly use the flat side when I jump on the bike with with street shoes. Everything is a compromise.


Here's another test, it's been awhile since I watched it but from what I remember the only real gains from being clipped in (as far as power) were during sprints and for everything else the differences were very marginal to none. 




For what it's worth I do think clipless has a few advantages and I prefer using them.


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## Josh_W (Aug 30, 2010)

As I get older and my balance gets sketchier, I put Crank Brothers Mallets on my full suspension bike so I can un-clip as I approach anything I'm not confident of. I put them on my hardtail too, so I can wear street shoes when commuting. But the one time I wore street shoes to tow my kid in the Wike trailer, I immediately felt the loss of power and speed - it was like letting 15 psi out of the tires.


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## camp10 (Mar 2, 2015)

I've been riding for 4 years. I haven't gone OTB this year, so I thought I'd try clipless. I bought the combo pedals. Some don't like them, but I'm a fan. I ride 90% clipped in, but when I'm talking that unfamiliar steep downhill switchback terrain, I can flip them over.

I definitely notice a difference when climbing.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

> As I get older and my balance gets sketchier, I put Crank Brothers Mallets on my full suspension bike so I can un-clip as I approach anything I'm not confident of. I put them on my hardtail too, so I can wear street shoes when commuting. But the one time I wore street shoes to tow my kid in the Wike trailer, I immediately felt the loss of power and speed - it was like letting 15 psi out of the tires.


How do you explain that controlled scientific tests show almost no power loss? Btw controlled scientific tests have also shown that in many cases dropping 15psi won't slow you down a bit, and in fact may be faster


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> How do you explain that controlled scientific tests show almost no power loss?


Because they're crappy tests? Here's the thing, in science we might compare two or more things in controlled tests that are only informative within the confines of the test. This certainly happens all the time in biology -- test tube based experiments may not accurately reflect life in the "wild". That doesn't mean those studies aren't informative in some way, we just have to be sure not to "over-interpret" our results. So, what's the wild when it comes to comparing flats to clipless with respect to power loss? I submit it's the XC race course where less than 1% of folks at the pointy end of the cat1 or cat2 field are using flats. JRA with your buds you may not notice a difference, but when the "wild" is a race...you notice.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

camp10 said:


> I haven't gone OTB this year, so I thought I'd try clipless.


That reads kinda humorously!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Pedalon2018 said:


> tests show even pedal strokes is mostly a myth??? My direct experience showed horrible even pedaling when I first hooked up a power meter. Now, after training with one, over time my stroke is so much more even after just three months. Your experience that some have with week muscles for the upstroke is an indicator you need some feedback to train better and get fitter. Pull a spark plug wire on a two cyclinder engine and see how well it performs. Even common sense tells one push pulling is the better way to ride, especially when heavy torque is applied to our bike.


What?

The only real input that the vast majority of people will have on the upstroke is getting their leg out of the way. You really shouldn't be trying to actively produce power, at least for any real length of time, on the upstroke. Can you do it to generate power going up a short, steep climb? Sure. But the best riders in the world, who certainly aren't "week" [sic], don't produce power on the upstroke.

Click right to third picture. Account belogs to former US road race and crit national champion Eric Marcotte.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B3VjYxEF1fG/


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

After a short fling with my clipless Mallets, I'm back on the flats again. Even after riding clipless for the last 20 years, my balance has deteriorated to the degree that I lose confidence on what used to seem like fairly trivial tech sections, and off the bike I go.


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## Pipeliner (Oct 30, 2018)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Clip-less pedals in most situations are more efficient and help torque management through the pedal stroke. Your inability to get out of them in an emergency takes training. It some crashes, it can happen so fast you cannot get out. A true downside. It you think these pedals are not more efficient, you are probably doing it incorrectly. Ride what you like but putting in energy in one side at a time is not the best technique if efficiency is your goal. One of my bikes has pedals that are flat on one side and clip-less on the other side for the rough stuff. Fair compromise. If you own or have used a power meter, it will display your effectiveness of clip-less vs flat in a very short time period. Not really in dispute.


Worst crash I've had was with my SPD-SLs on my road bike. Not going fast but bike went out from under me on a fresh oil slick. Serious road rash...

I'll always ride flats on my mtb because I feel safer, but when it comes to cranking it out on a climb or prolonged sprint, you can't beat being clipped in. I don't pull up so much as I like to pull my feet backward on the bottom of the stroke (think walking). It helps with the burn in your quads when you are grinding out a tough stretch. Can't do that with flats.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ptor said:


> Because they're crappy tests? Here's the thing, in science we might compare two or more things in controlled tests that are only informative within the confines of the test. This certainly happens all the time in biology -- test tube based experiments may not accurately reflect life in the "wild". That doesn't mean those studies aren't informative in some way, we just have to be sure not to "over-interpret" our results. So, what's the wild when it comes to comparing flats to clipless with respect to power loss? I submit it's the XC race course where less than 1% of folks at the pointy end of the cat1 or cat2 field are using flats. JRA with your buds you may not notice a difference, but when the "wild" is a race...you notice.


Have you ever raced "out in the wild" with flats? I'm guessing 9/10 xc racers have never attempted racing with anything other than clipless so the 1% at the pointy end thing is mostly incidental. Anyway, a friend of mine who doesn't know any better has podiumed several times on flats. He also rides clips but seems to be just as fast either way on high intensity xc sufferfests.

I agree that clipless offers marginal gains (as did the tests I linked) and at some point marginal gains do make a difference for racing. That said I think pedal choice is usually of little consequence, most people I see at mtb races aren't super serious and whether or not they're on clipless or flats isn't going to affect the outcome.

There are a bunch of other tests besides the ones I linked that conclude that the difference in power production is much less than most people ( me included) had presumed.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm guessing 9/10 xc racers have never attempted racing with anything other than clipless so the 1% at the pointy end thing is mostly incidental.


I disagree with the "9/10 xc racers have never attempted" racing with flats -- that's not been my observation ever. A good one third of the sport class (cat 2) at the local series lines up on flats and just don't end up contending for the front 30% after the 1 to 1.5 hours of racing. So if flats were as good as clipless in the wild of these XC races, you'd see 1/3 of the front 1/3 on flats -- it's just not happening.

I raced in 6 events this past summer, 5 XC events and 1 marathon. I witnessed only two accidents in those races, both for what I perceive to be the same reason -- guy hits a rock garden faster than he thought, got bucked off the flat pedals, got tangled up in his cranks with feet dragging on the ground, dust cloud ensues. Both guys were OK, not withstanding the bloody shins. I never saw anyone fall over because they couldn't unclip in time, but my sample size is pretty small and I don't doubt it happened at some point in those races.

My personal experience and observation of others at XC races indicate that "in the wild of XC racing" flats are more dangerous and less likely to allow one's best performance. By all means, if you're XC racing in the Rocky Mountains you should use flat pedals as it would be in my best interest. I'm only continuing to contest the point that flats are as good as clipless for XC racing as a matter of principal -- it's just not true by any measure and ignoring the facts will not allow you to have your best day at the races. As I've said before in this thread -- I get beat by people on rigid bikes, singlespeeds, enduro bikes, even riders on 20 year-old 26ers -- but they're all riding clipless. It's like health and smoking -- nothing else you can do matters until you quit smoking. And in XC racing, nothing else matters much when it comes to equipment if you aren't using clipless. It's the largest of the marginal gains!

And yes, Ned Overend or J.B.Weld's friend or any number of mtbers could dust me in any race using flat pedals -- no marginal gain is big enough to make up for my lack of talent.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Our local XC races, 3-4 people will be on flats out of 30-40 racers.

Usually, finishing in the back 3rd except for the last race where one didn't get that memo and got 2nd.


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## quite.right (Sep 29, 2016)

Can you do a trackstand with clipless pedals?


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## bikemoto885 (Jul 11, 2016)

quite.right said:


> Can you do a trackstand with clipless pedals?


Dumb question! Of course you can, most trackies ride clipless (originally clipped) hence having to track stand. I was better at it on my first attempt today on my new enduro with flats, than I am on my road bike with SPD-SLs.

The more important question is: can you wheelie?

:-D


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## Northshore04 (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm using Raceface Aeffect's with 5 10 Freerides. I used clipless on my road bike so the adjustment to flats on the mtb took a little bit.


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## Earthpig (Jan 23, 2004)

Old guy here (just found this forum) and only switched to flats a couple of weeks ago after 23 years on clipless (mostly Time ATACs.) The guys at my regular LBS told me that these days, about 4 out of 5 new bikes and sets of mountain bike pedals/shoes they sell are flats/flat shoes. My wife (who rarely rides) switched to flats last year and has been raving about how much better she likes them than clipless. So, I had to give it a try. Here are my very first impressions after about 5 or 6 rides:

Jumping: In clipless, it's ridiculously easy to launch and jump. Pull up on bars, pull up on feet. That's it. I'm having to totally re-learn this skill. Pulling more back than up on the bars, pointing my heels down, and trying to learn how to manual/bunny hop seems to be what I need to learn to do. Not there yet. I can roll bumps and water bars - maybe even faster than I could in clipless - but I'm not anywhere near confident enough to try to get more than a few inches of air.

Climbing: I'm actually finding that most climbing is easier rather than harder. I have long(ish) legs and bigger feet and with the newer frames with steeper seat tube angles, I never felt like I could get my saddle far enough back to pedal comfortably. With flats, I find in pedaling more on the arch of my foot than the ball of my foot. I also have two different leg lengths and I'm woefully pigeon-toed, so the ability to move my foot around to different spots when climbing almost makes it easier to climb. Now, that said, in more technical spots where I would pull up on my feet to clear an obstacle? Not happening. Definitely having to re-learn that. Not even close on that one yet, so I'm walking some sections that I've been easily climbing in clipless pedals for years (decades.) 

Descending: See above about jumping. Our trails have a lot of rollers and water bars that encourage "air-getting." Not quite comfortable on flats yet to do that. Otherwise, "riding heavy" on the pedals was the best advice I've received. I try to really put weight on my feet when descending and angle my heels down, while also getting my center of gravity lower. Interestingly enough, on a trail I've descended 123 times since August 2010 (according to Garmin/Strava), I posted my third fastest time the first time I rode it on flats (which was my third time riding flats ever.) My biggest problem with the downhill is that it feels like I can't quite get my foot in the right spot and I'm having to move them around to feel balanced. 

Bike choice: The flats seem to work best when you can get your weight down and back. I tried flats on my XC bike that does not have a dropper post. With longer legs, I ride my saddle very high (usually 800mm or more from the center of the BB to the top of the middle of the saddle.) I could not get my weight far enough back or down when I was descending in flats on that bike and my feet felt like they wanted to fly off the pedals. So, that bike will remain with clipless pedals. 

Rough/technical terrain: Many of our local trails are steep, but sidewalk smooth. I've been practicing riding flats on those trails before venturing out on the rougher, rockier, more technical terrain. I did try a rockier trail this past weekend and it was, well, not fun on flats. I'm so used to clipless pedals keeping my feet planted and attached to the rest of the bike on rough stuff when the bike is bouncing around. No such luck on flats, at least on my first try. It was a humbling experience to be poking along like a newbie on a trail I've ridden hundreds of time because my feet refused to stay on the pedals. Some of my worst crashes have occurred due to the unexpected release of a pedal on a rough downhill. 

Gear: I tried my first flats ride on a borrowed set of Race Face Chester pedals and an older pair of Vans. I was advised by the LBS to try the 5-10 Freerider shoe. It's OK, but I can't seem to find the right size. The 10.5 is too small and the 11 feels like it fits when I'm walking, but too big when I'm riding. I settled on the latter and added a thin insole under the forefoot to take up some of the extra volume. I'm so used to riding in a tight fitting clipless shoe with ratchet straps and Velcro straps that a big, bulky shoe with more room in the toebox and laces just feels...wrong. My forefoot keeps going to sleep. I'm wondering if they just need to break in. I now have one set of Chesters and one set of Deity pedals. The much cheaper Chesters seem to work better.

Overall, I'm going to commit to keeping the flats on my two bikes with dropper posts. I'll keep the ATACs on my gravel bike and XC bike. I think more time and experience on the flats will make them easier to ride. Old dogs can learn new tricks - but it takes more time.


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## quite.right (Sep 29, 2016)

After years with clipless i can report after my five rides with flats that riding on flats is MUCH better _for me_. I have still to learn a lot of skill new but it is so easy to get back from and on the bike in steep, rocky, rooty and technical terrain. And also to launch the rear wheel  I would better start it some years ago.


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## Delaware Guy (Jun 12, 2019)

I've been using these for a couple weeks and really like them. Prior to that was riding Raceface Chesters, which I also liked. Rode clipless for thirty years before... not going back to clipless!


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## krink (Apr 5, 2019)

I just turned 50. Last year I got a Yeti SB5+ and had 27.5+ and 29 wheels made for it. When riding the 27.5+ i use Kona wah wah pedals and 5.10s, when using the 29s I use SPDs. My hill-climbing is essentially the same with both. I descend faster with the + wheels and can do small jump lines, I am overall faster and dont jump using the 29s.


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## Mikhs (May 18, 2006)

I didn't get into the mountain biking scene until my early to mid 40's. One ride in the forest on my old heavy as hell, fully rigid "mountain" bike was all it took to get me hooked. When I bought my first real mountain bike I was told that I needed to have clipless pedals and shoes so that is what I bought. 

I was quite happy using them for the next ten years or so. My skills on the bike were so so but they were improving as was my cardio which led to longer and longer rides. At some point I started to have right foot issues that caused severe discomfort and pain when I rode over about 25 km. This led to spending lots of money on different clipless pedals and many pairs of shoes to try to alleviate the problem. Nothing worked.

One day after cutting a ride short due to the pain and discomfort, a thought popped in my head, flats. I had tried a bunch of different clipless systems to no avail so why not give flats a try. I heard all the negatives about flats, lack of being able to spin in circles, feet always coming off the pedals, you can't climb worth a crap etc..

I figured that if I was going to give them a fair shake I needed half decent pedals and shoes. Spank Spike pedals and a pair of 5.10's. Doing my research on the net also led me to bikejames and his Flat Pedal Revolution Manifesto. It is an interesting read and made a lot of sense. My number one take away was to give them at least a 12 ride test before deciding if they were for me.

Well that was probably about 6 or so years ago now and I am still on flats. No more foot pain even on rides of 100 km so I am a happy camper. My riding skills have improved tremendously since moving to flats although to be fair that also has to do with being more committed to learning new skills. Some skills are best learned on flats though. 

When James Wilson came out with the Catalyst pedal I though what the heck, my Spank Spikes needed yet another rebuild so why not give the Catalysts a try. I have been on them for the last 3 years and I like them a lot.

I still get riders that don't know me telling me how much better I would be able to ride on clipless but it is like water off a ducks back. I do see more flats in the forest now than in years past but most riders still drink the clipless coolaid without exploring the pros and cons of both systems. But whatever, as long as they are out enjoying riding their bikes it is all cool.


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## metalskool (Feb 6, 2019)

Mikhs said:


> I still get riders that don't know me telling me how much better I would be able to ride on clipless but it is like water off a ducks back. I do see more flats in the forest now than in years past but most riders still drink the clipless coolaid without exploring the pros and cons of both systems. But whatever, as long as they are out enjoying riding their bikes it is all cool.


I totally agree!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

metalskool said:


> I totally agree!


Well I don't. There is no Cool Aid to drink. Most here have tried both with almost everybody that has ridden flats in some form. So we base our opinion based on our experience which for many is extensive. And there are different styles of MB so there is no system that fits everybody's need. One of mine has Crank Brother' Double Shot 3, one has Eggbeater 3 and another is a dedicated flat pedal on the Fat. So I am outa here to ride the snow, on flats.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Having been out of the mountain bike thing for awhile I was amazed at how grippy the studded flats are on a pair of 5-10s. I still go back and forth between the two now and then but I don’t do any real mountain biking stuff. Mostly field trails and through the SE hardwoods.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

I stopped clipping in around 1997 when a BMXer taught me to bunnyhop without clipping in. I have a mix of Xpedo, Race Face, and Wellgo on my bikes. I wear a shin guard on my right leg because I have to push uphill sometimes at my age and got tired of my pedals taking bites out of my shin.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Xylx said:


> I stopped clipping in around 1997 when a BMXer taught me to bunnyhop without clipping in. I have a mix of Xpedo, Race Face, and Wellgo on my bikes. I wear a shin guard on my right leg because I have to push uphill sometimes at my age and got tired of my pedals taking bites out of my shin.


At 62 i just go up slow when needed with tiny gears on each of my bikes. The standard transmissions are not for me.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Rode clipless for a couple of decades, switched to flats about a year ago for yet another (failed) attempt to learn to pop wheelies. Back to clipless because I need all the help I can get on the climbs and pulling up may not be much but it beats walking, which I have been doing a lot more lately with the flats.



NordieBoy said:


> Tried flats on the full suspension bike a couple of weeks ago.
> It really bought home to me how much I pull up when riding.
> 
> Back to clips.


This.



TwoTone said:


> Yea I don't agree with the first. Rode clipless for over 10 years, went back to flats a few years ago. Now as my knee is starting to bother me I went back to clipless for the float. Good shoe and good flats = no float.


and this.



ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?


Gonna get some before I put the spikey pedals back on (if I ever do). Those pedals are HUNGRY.



rmac said:


> Adding a few thoughts:
> Protection: I don't have much trouble with the pedals hitting my shins but I do have a problem with them digging holes in my calves. It doesn't come from slipping off the pedals but from failing on steep technical climbs - get to point where I have to bail, lock brakes, put foot down and angle of ground means calf slides back into pedal pins.


That too, but it doesn't have to be technical, really steep is enough.


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## Xgecko (Oct 12, 2019)

I started MTB riding before suspension. Gravitated to BMX and Dirt Jumping on Big wheels when suspension priced a new bike out of what the wife would approve of....eventually ending up on a fixed gear. Segway to post divorce and my first bike was a gravel bike for commuting. So clips were a requirement but my second bike was an MTB I tried clipless but a few months in I missed he freedom of flats and hated the bad habits I immediately developed, plus I fell on a switchback going uphill and felt foolish. I honestly don’t feel a difference climbing except that I can take a foot off when I need to and jumping feels more stable landing jumps.


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## Tim_Ky (Jun 16, 2014)

I've always rode flats and often ride sandals during the summer. Odyssey Twisted Pro bmx pedals and no metal pins to make my shins bleed. I'm slow on my fat bike but I've seen others have to get off and walk when I'm still pedaling.


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## Mikhs (May 18, 2006)

Xgecko said:


> Segway to post divorce and my first bike was a gravel bike for commuting. So clips were a requirement but my second bike was an MTB I tried clipless but a few months in I missed he freedom of flats and hated the bad habits I immediately developed, plus I fell on a switchback going uphill and felt foolish. I honestly don't feel a difference climbing except that I can take a foot off when I need to and jumping feels more stable landing jumps.


Just wondering why clips were a requirement on the gravel bike?


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## Mikhs (May 18, 2006)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Well I don't. There is no Cool Aid to drink. Most here have tried both with almost everybody that has ridden flats in some form. So we base our opinion based on our experience which for many is extensive. And there are different styles of MB so there is no system that fits everybody's need. One of mine has Crank Brother' Double Shot 3, one has Eggbeater 3 and another is a dedicated flat pedal on the Fat. So I am outa here to ride the snow, on flats.


I am glad that in your area no cool aid has been drunk.

In my experience in my area sadly that is not the case. When I started mountain biking everyone used clipless and all advice to new riders was to get on clipless asap.
The advice was from riders and shops.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Mikhs said:


> I am glad that in your area no cool aid has been drunk.
> 
> In my experience in my area sadly that is not the case. When I started mountain biking everyone used clipless and all advice to new riders was to get on clipless asap.
> The advice was from riders and shops.


In my area the new flavor is dropper.
Maybe you read/heard of single ring?


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## Mikhs (May 18, 2006)

33red said:


> In my area the new flavor is dropper.
> Maybe you read/heard of single ring?


Not exactly sure what you are getting at.

I do have both a dropper and a 1X drivetrain so ya I have heard of them. Personally my riding has never been better since I put a dropper and flats on about five years ago and I wouldn't get another bike without one.

As far as the 1X, I like it and it allows me to put the dropper lever under the bars but if I could only pick one it would be the dropper.


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## Xgecko (Oct 12, 2019)

Mikhs said:


> Just wondering why clips were a requirement on the gravel bike?


I was riding 30 miles a day 5-6 days a week, commuting to and from work. I find it easier to spin miles away with clips


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## Mikhs (May 18, 2006)

Xgecko said:


> I was riding 30 miles a day 5-6 days a week, commuting to and from work. I find it easier to spin miles away with clips
> 
> View attachment 1294923


Fair enough. Personally I could never get the spin thing down. I would have to consciously think about doing it and that would last oh about one minute and then back to my normal pedaling.

The bike pic is the type of gravel bike I would be interested in if I was to get a gravel bike.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

I switched to today's 3 years ago.
It took a couple of months before i get really planted in Rock gardens.
Now I'm one with the bike.

It improved my downhill because i have to absorb more with my legs rather than relying on the suspension.

Also, i clean more on the uphill because I'm not afraid to balance when i stall instead of unclipping.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

And no difference in myl uphill times.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Switched to flats about a year and a half ago. Chesters, originally, but after going through two pair in about 18 months (I'm not the most graceful jumper - wore out the bearings, not the pedals), I bought a pair of Anvil pedals. Only a couple of rides so far, but they feel really good underfoot!

Last May, I rode a 3 day, 140 mile trip on the Kokopelli Trail with flats. Lots of pedally sections and climbing but I really felt no loss from previous trips on clips. And I was able to (i.e. brave enough, knowing I could get a foot down) ride more of the difficult things than I had previously.


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## rmac (Oct 26, 2004)

Earthpig said:


> Descending: See above about jumping. Our trails have a lot of rollers and water bars that encourage "air-getting." Not quite comfortable on flats yet to do that. Otherwise, "riding heavy" on the pedals was the best advice I've received. I try to really put weight on my feet when descending and angle my heels down, while also getting my center of gravity lower. Interestingly enough, on a trail I've descended 123 times since August 2010 (according to Garmin/Strava), I posted my third fastest time the first time I rode it on flats (which was my third time riding flats ever.) My biggest problem with the downhill is that it feels like I can't quite get my foot in the right spot and I'm having to move them around to feel balanced.


Best advice on jumps I have read (in this thread maybe) was to lift up with my hips instead of my knees. Clipped in it didn't matter how I lifted up, the bike stayed with me and I developed the habit of lifting with my knees. Switching to flats, lifting with the knees immediately removes the foot from the pedal. It has taken me quite a while to develop the technique of lifting with hips (old dog, new tricks). Like you mention practicing on small stuff until you have it down will prevent catastrophe. Something that is helping with keeping the feet on the pedals for jumps has been working on hopping the bike (come to a stop, drop weight down to compress the suspension, spring up and twist in either direction to re-position the bike - lots of other types of hops I haven't worked on yet). This is a fairly low risk practice for using the hips and keeping the feet on the pedals.

Also on drops, when clipped in I would lift the bike to keep the front wheel up particularly when it was a slower speed drop. On flats, it has forced me to learn the 'correct' method of getting my weight back going off the drop to keep the nose up. Gratuitous picture of me on a drop:







I am currently working on very low speed drops which require more 'manual' technique than I have.


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## willworkforbeer (Jan 14, 2007)

yes, 54, and nothing but flats. Wellgo.


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## upclever (Sep 17, 2019)

Flat pedals have steel set screws that can rip open skin, so screw them.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

upclever said:


> Flat pedals have steel set screws that can rip open skin, so screw them.


There is a moderate learning curve involved. Try some Wellgo MG-1's, much smaller pins, and fewer. The height of the pins can be adjusted.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

bsieb said:


> There is a moderate learning curve involved. Try some Wellgo MG-1's, much smaller pins, and fewer. The height of the pins can be adjusted.


Ok, but flat pedals equals wear shin guards

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've been riding flats for near 5 years now, and I still can't jump or even comfortably get any kind of air.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

upclever said:


> Flat pedals have steel set screws that can rip open skin, so screw them.


The variety with the bumps cast into the pedal platform are less prone to laser surgery. Frankly, I have plenty of scars from my bike collection and their pedals. I ride trialsy every ride and cannot afford the ER bills that clipless are designed to cause due to trials.

On a serious response tho', here it is... Shorter pins might help the learning curve of platform pedals. It takes time just the same as going clipless for the first time does.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I got a pair of trick CB Mallets on sale, so I will probably try to re-aclimate myself to lipless again. I could bunny hop like a real mofo with lipless pedals man moons ago.


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## indianhillsted (Mar 8, 2007)

Flat pedal rider here. Switched after 30+ yrs riding clipless.

Now on my 5th season on flats on my full squish. Last year put them on my singlespeed.

More comfort, no more knee or ankle pain, more confidence, more traction/control, more skill up and down, jumping better, wheelies and bunny hops used to elude me. No downside whatsoever. 

But I'm only 49 so what do I know?


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

5 10 guide tennies worked. Sooner or later I will get another pair.
Anything out there similar to the guide tennies with ankle protection?

I got some Saint pedals recently. Good choice. I noticed the xt come in 2 sizes.

Saint pedals come with 2 sets of pins. I use the smaller pins.

When looking for flats, I find pedals that are not too concave. Some pedals are sunk in at the spindle, and higher at both sides. For all day comfort a flat flat pedal is better. 

A more substancial platform is better. The more area to support your foot the better.
Lets face it. You will ride your bike further if you are comfortable. Don't try to save 67 grams and end up with a small platform.

Why are flats better?

Safety
comfort


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Radium said:


> I got a pair of trick CB Mallets on sale, so I will probably try to re-aclimate myself to lipless again. I could bunny hop like a real mofo with lipless pedals man moons ago.


I wouldn't even think of doing a sidehop to a ledge in clipless since my last 48 hour hospitalization set me back 150k.



indianhillsted said:


> Flat pedal rider here. Switched after 30+ yrs riding clipless.
> 
> Now on my 5th season on flats on my full squish. Last year put them on my singlespeed.
> 
> ...


You're ahead of the curve!

I tried clipless when they came out with the Shimano 747's. I gave it a year and broke out my trusty platforms and Van's, off to the trails in comfort without being stuck to pedals with Vice Grips. The 747's are equipped with the aftermarket Ti assholes, uh, axles and have lived in the bin for 20 years or so.



chrisx said:


> 5 10 guide tennies worked. Sooner or later I will get another pair.
> Anything out there similar to the guide tennies with ankle protection?
> 
> I got some Saint pedals recently. Good choice. I noticed the xt come in 2 sizes.
> ...


Flats are better cause of your first sentence! I cannot fathom riding with microlam strapped to my feet and lag bolted to my pedals.
I did buy a pair of Guide mids and am now kickin myself in the arse for not having become addicted to em when they first hit the market.

I do keep an eye on the mountaineering company lineups since they are purveyors of great approach shoes.

Weight... Pfft! I have three plussers that are not enrolled in Jenny Craig, Nutri-System or any other weight loss program! Weight saving should be only done with a primarily utilitarian component that does a bang up job and has a side benefit of being lighter than other similar components. Performance and durability are first and foremost, followed by weight as a secondary consideration.


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## Dave in Sharpsburg (Dec 21, 2003)

Love my dk iron crosses only pedal I've used!










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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Dave in Sharpsburg said:


> Love my dk iron crosses only pedal I've used!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sweet!!!!


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Clipless may get you more connected to the bike but flats get you more connected to the trail.


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I started on SPD when they came out in 1991 but haven't ridden at all in several years. I just got a new bike with flats and was going to put on the SPDs but I decided to give the flats a try first.

It turns out I really like the flats.










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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Ryder1 said:


> Flats are more organic, direct.
> 
> Clipping in may get you more connected to the bike, but flats get you more connected to the trail.


Oooh, Oooh! Let me play!

Flats may be organic, but super-organic would be flats and NO suspension, then you really have to be one with the trail.

Oh, no - better yet, barefoot trail running - intimately connected with every bump, every pebble, every thorn - that would be Uber-Organic!

-- --

That being said, I'm headed to Moab next week and I'll be trail running in shoes and trail riding on a full suspension bike equipped with XTR-SPDs&#8230;


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Ryder1 said:


> Clipping in may get you more connected to the bike, but flats get you more connected to the trail.


This has to be the cliché of the day. I love it.
I guess I'm really old fashioned as I still clip in every ride on my mountain bike. For me it is a definitive advantage - I like being connected to my bike.
I've been connected to the trail before and it hurts every time.
My fat bike has flat pedals, however, so maybe I will eventually convert my mountain bike to flat, but I doubt it.


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## CaptainA (Jan 2, 2020)

I run pedaling innovations flats and love them. been very good to me.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mudflap said:


> This has to be the cliché of the day. I love it.
> I guess I'm really old fashioned as I still clip in every ride on my mountain bike. For me it is a definitive advantage - I like being connected to my bike.
> I've been connected to the trail before and it hurts every time.
> My fat bike has flat pedals, however, so maybe I will eventually convert my mountain bike to flat, but I doubt it.


Clipping in, you're more connected to the bike. Flats are more connected to your shins.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> Clipping in, you're more connected to the bike. Flats are more connected to your shins.


Lol yep some days!
I accidentally rolled a mandatory drop last week.
Somehow I didn't end up OTB but I did take 2 pedals to the shins and a seat to the belly... Ouch.
Not sure what would have happened if I was on clipless pedals though.

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## pitbullandmtb (Jul 31, 2011)

I’m using Chesters on my squishy and XTR on my SS Gravel. 


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I started using flats a couple of weeks ago after going SPD in 1991. 

The flats have been fine until today, when I finally went over some technical sections and a couple of jumps. Feet flying everywhere but maintained control. 

I’m going to go dial in my SPD’s and start going clipless again. 


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

celswick said:


> I started using flats a couple of weeks ago after going SPD in 1991.
> 
> The flats have been fine until today, when I finally went over some technical sections and a couple of jumps. Feet flying everywhere but maintained control.
> 
> ...


Good shoes+proper technique and you should stick to pedals no matter

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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

Shark said:


> Good shoes+proper technique and you should stick to pedals no matter
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I currently have neither.

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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

celswick said:


> I started using flats a couple of weeks ago after going SPD in 1991.
> 
> The flats have been fine until today, when I finally went over some technical sections and a couple of jumps. Feet flying everywhere but maintained control.
> 
> ...


Translation: I give up! Not willing to put the effort forth to learn the fine art of platform pedaling.

Platforms do have a learning curve when you come from clipless. You become accustomed to being locked into a pedal which is understandable.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

BansheeRune said:


> Translation: I give up! Not willing to put the effort forth to learn the fine art of platform pedaling.
> 
> Platforms do have a learning curve when you come from clipless. You become accustomed to being locked into a pedal which is understandable.


my friend, who started as a roadie clipped in, tried flats for the first time this past week on my older 26er (he wants to start MTBing, so we have been learning)...he said pretty much the same thing...but I told him it will take a while. And, that it is perfectly fine to ride clipped on MTB...

I started on BMX, so I have never ridden clipped in for the same reason...don't want to, or feel that I need to, learn to ride clipped to the bike. It is terrifying to me actually.


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I swear I finished my single track loop yesterday 5 minutes faster with my clipless pedals than I did the day before with flats and sneakers. I made it up every climb and never had to stop once. Total night and day difference for me. And I was able to be aggressive through the rough spots and hit some drops pretty fast since I was so connected. I'm stoked. 


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

celswick said:


> I swear I finished my single track loop yesterday 5 minutes faster with my clipless pedals than I did the day before with flats and sneakers. I made it up every climb and never had to stop once. Total night and day difference for me. And I was able to be aggressive through the rough spots and hit some drops pretty fast since I was so connected. I'm stoked.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just need to give flats some more time.
After a couple of months, you'll be almost as fast and will look cooler.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

NordieBoy said:


> You just need to give flats some more time.
> After a couple of months, you'll be almost as fast and will look cooler.


And just think, one can leave the freakin' wing tips in the closet and wear some damn comfy shoes!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> And just think, one can leave the freakin' wing tips in the closet and wear some damn comfy shoes!


Why do they have to model the shoes after the ones on Bill n Ted's Excellent Adventure?


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Cause they just cannot make em look good or feel good!


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## Dave in Sharpsburg (Dec 21, 2003)

NordieBoy said:


> Clipping in, you're more connected to the bike. Flats are more connected to your shins.


Seems someone needs to work on technique. A quick way to do this is to take a nice hit ONCE. And you'll therefore get the inevitable out of the way and then can learn from the mistake and not repeat it.

True story. Happened to me!

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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm going to go against the grain here and say it certain circumstances I feel more connected to the bike using flats and other times clipless. Just depends on what and how I am riding.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Dave in Sharpsburg said:


> Seems someone needs to work on technique. A quick way to do this is to take a nice hit ONCE. And you'll therefore get the inevitable out of the way and then can learn from the mistake and not repeat it.
> 
> True story. Happened to me!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


this is what happened to me back in the 70's on BMX...those big "bear trap" pedals. We called it Hamburger Shins, and it was sort of a "hero" thing to have...

you do get used to manipulating flats, and it just takes time. I tried clipless back in the late 90's, but just couldn't, and didn't want to get used to it

neither way is defined as "the best", so it is whatever works for you.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

NordieBoy said:


> Clipping in, you're more connected to the bike. Flats are more connected to your shins.


The only time my shins have met pedals has been while standing over my bike and the bike rolled back and a pedal got me. Ya just don't know when a bike will get territorial and leave pedal pin marks. At least they rarely spray! 'Ceptin when a slice in a tire lets the Stan's out! Either it works or one doesn't get the platform right or the clipless right. I have never seen anyone use clipless at a trials competition since it is a death wish likely to be granted.



str8edgMTBMXer said:


> my friend, who started as a roadie clipped in, tried flats for the first time this past week on my older 26er (he wants to start MTBing, so we have been learning)...he said pretty much the same thing...but I told him it will take a while. And, that it is perfectly fine to ride clipped on MTB...
> 
> I started on BMX, so I have never ridden clipped in for the same reason...don't want to, or feel that I need to, learn to ride clipped to the bike. It is terrifying to me actually.


Werd!

When I tried the clipless thing for shits n grins there was a loss of epidermis never experienced while using bear traps, platforms or a vice clampng my feet needlessly to a freakin bike used for trials or any other form of off road activity.



str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this is what happened to me back in the 70's on BMX...those big "bear trap" pedals. We called it Hamburger Shins, and it was sort of a "hero" thing to have...
> 
> you do get used to manipulating flats, and it just takes time. I tried clipless back in the late 90's, but just couldn't, and didn't want to get used to it
> 
> neither way is defined as "the best", so it is whatever works for you.


Must agree with the last sentence... And yus, I have 50 years of scars that each have a story to be told. Most are not from pedals but other obstacles or whilst standing with my bike.

Now, I want to see a demonstration of a genuine balance check with those silly wingtips and clipless on an elevated skinny. Skinny shall be a minimum of 12' above grade. Trials bike preferred but not required.

*Breaks out the Red Sky*


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've switched back to clipless for a few weeks now, just on one bike, my "gravel"/town bike. I don't notice any real increase in avg. speed over courses I know my avg. speeds on. I haven't fallen over at a red light yet, either. 
I may put the flats back on that bike anyways here in a few days....


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

After doing the Great Allegheny Passage/C&O Canal on flats with Keens sandals, I gradually changed all of my bikes over to flats (mountain, road, commuter). 

The first day of the tour, pedaling with pressure on my forefoot (the clipless position) was painful. Changed to my foot further forward on the flat pedal, all was well. 

So much simpler. Sandals for commuting and road, and Five Tens for the mountain bike. It's all good!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

June Bug said:


> After doing the Great Allegheny Passage/C&O Canal on flats with Keens sandals, I gradually changed all of my bikes over to flats (mountain, road, commuter).
> 
> The first day of the tour, pedaling with pressure on my forefoot (the clipless position) was painful. Changed to my foot further forward on the flat pedal, all was well.
> 
> So much simpler. Sandals for commuting and road, and Five Tens for the mountain bike. It's all good!


Yep, simple is good. I ride in my work clothes and crocs sometimes, no energy for changing into cycling gear. To be honest I don't even notice most of the time. I have more energy when I return.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

I continue to have zero desire to run clips... I hated them in the 90s and I hate them now.

I just got a pair of Deity TMAC flats for my Trance.. great pedals .. along with my 510 freeriders very good stuff.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

June Bug said:


> Changed to my foot further forward on the flat pedal, all was well.


This is why I can't imagine going back to SPDs, I can't get my foot far enough forward in relation to the pedal axle. I rode for years with cleats max rearward, kept trying to find shoes that allowed a further rearward cleat position, wanted to try making my own custom center-foot cleat position (not easy), then saw the long Catalyst flat pedals (mentioned in OP) that basically require an arch-over-axle position. Bought them, liked them, but were too severe, I felt flat-footed out of the saddle, I kept moving my feet back for more calf engagement/control. Then tried a less long flat pedal (Crank Bros. Stamp) which was the perfect middle ground, allowed me to get axle behind the ball of my foot but in front of my arch. Bingo. Mated to Five Ten Freerider Pros.

If anybody with SPDs is struggling with the steep STAs on modern geo bikes, flats may be worth a try. My saddle is now ~40mm more forward than previously, zero knee pain, I'm not sitting over the rear hub, and a longer reach feels normal.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

June Bug said:


> After doing the Great Allegheny Passage/C&O Canal on flats with Keens sandals, I gradually changed all of my bikes over to flats (mountain, road, commuter).
> 
> The first day of the tour, pedaling with pressure on my forefoot (the clipless position) was painful. Changed to my foot further forward on the flat pedal, all was well.
> 
> So much simpler. Sandals for commuting and road, and Five Tens for the mountain bike. It's all good!


I used to have a pair of Lake SPD sandals. Loved them. Nice stiff Shimano sole...


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

When I was a kid the pedals on our rides were made in Japan and would begin to self destruct after a few good whacks and crashes (like watching your bike go down a hill with no one on it to see who's would go farthest.)
After a while, all that was left was the spindle. I remember riding barefoot on just my bikes spindle.
I guess kids were just tougher back then. :madman:


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

mudflap said:


> When I was a kid the pedals on our rides were made in Japan and would begin to self destruct after a few good whacks and crashes (like watching your bike go down a hill with no one on it to see who's would go farthest.)
> After a while, all that was left was the spindle. I remember riding barefoot on just my bikes spindle.
> I guess kids were just tougher back then. :madman:


Agreed, stop being sissies. Set up a ramp in your driveway, lay your friends in a line and start jumping over them. Tie a tow rope to your buddy's go cart and see how fast you can go. Send it off the shed roof into the swimming pool...

Of course, things hurt for a lot longer these days. I keep seeing some old guy in the mirror. Not sure when that happened.


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## OTH Hoosier (Jun 13, 2019)

I mostly run flats after my clipless shoes were destroyed in about a month due to rock strikes and whatever else broke the boa system. I've been running $20 Rock Brothers pedals on some old (actual) tennis court shoes with a rubberized toe and slightly stiffer sole. Couldn't get good grip so I bought some longer pins and that made a big difference. But pedal was just too small for my 10 1/2 foot. So...been thinking and researching for a month or two and almost went with several bigger/wider pedals but just couldn't pull the trigger. I started using a pair of 5/10's and WOW what a difference they made in sticking to those pedals, and also in comfort and efficiency/power. Maybe I should have just stayed with that b/c today I actually found myself unable to reposition my foot on the pedal on those shoes while riding unless I completely stopped pedaling to do it.

Nonetheless, I decided to take the plunge and ordered a set of Chromag Daggas. If you haven't seen them....https://chromagbikes.com/products/pedals-dagga I'm a little uncertain if I made the right call. I think the wide platform is going to feel freaking awesome, and the longer platform will likewise feel great. My concern is whether with those pins I will be so stuck to the pedal with the 5/10's I might not be able to reposition. I may have to use the washers and stay at 6mm not 8mm. Maybe it will be a non issue if I'm just careful to position the shoes right the first time, b/c honestly I believe once they hookup with those daggas they are going to be rock solid stable and not slide around at all. I can't wait to try it out. And yeah, my shins look like crap and worse yet those dagga pins are freaking intimidating. So, now considering the shin guard route. I wear about every other piece of gear, so why not I guess. Love to not need them though. I'll try to post an update after I run them a bit.


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

64 yo here, my second post lol. So I've returned after at least 8 years off and returned with flats. I had a very brief fling with clipless in the late 90s or so, but at the time they were small platforms and I was into DH and Freeriding. I know they make clipless that are good for that now but to me you should ride what you feel confident on. I went over to Switzerland to ride with some guys, in my bag was a pedal wrench and some BMW Shinburgers I think they were called and the Roach pads you needed for those. Met up and they were all in tights and xc gear and looked at me like I was insane. Then they killed me with 13 miles of climbing, it was awful. Except at the top they were all complaining how now they had to go back on a terrible 11 mile downhill in unrideable condition (to them). Revenge was sweet. I ride best when I feel like I can get off the dang bike "right now!" if I need to, and I never felt that way with clipless. I'm slower now but still like the confidence my flats and 5.10s give me...


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Gravel grinder = clipless
Hardtail = clipless
All-mtn FS = flats
Fat bike = flats

Learn/use both. "Specialization is for insects" (anyone know the quote?)


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I just had my first clipless “incident” in probably 25 years yesterday. I was climbing a small switchback that I’ve climbed dozens of times before when I somehow took a wrong line and was stopped dead in my tracks by a root. 

I went to unclip and my foot pulled out of my shoe. I lost my balance and fell right over on a nice soft bed of poison ivy.

I tightened my shoes up after that. 


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

I switched from SPD pedals to flats about 1.5 years ago. Rolling on One-Up alloys and 510 Freeriders. Those shoes fit my feet very well.


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## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

The new Deity Deftraps look worthy of a try!!


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I put deity comp v2’s on my new bike. I might put some longer screws(pins) in though. Rode spd’s for 20 years. I need the ability to get off the pedals. Even with multi angle release cleats I would fall over in low speed "crashes" and couldn’t get unclipped. Never had a high speed crash in them though. 

I miss clipless for climbs.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

Undescended said:


> The new Deity Deftraps look worthy of a try!!


Mine are due to arrive tomorrow. Will be interesting to see how they stack up against the iSSi Thump RPs that I'm currently running.


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## OTH Hoosier (Jun 13, 2019)

*Chromag Daggas hit the mark*

So they came and put them on. Great finish and pins grippy even with the washers on limiting them to 6 mm instead of the full 8mm. Nice and wide but part of the width is about 10mm of extra q factor away from the cranks, but without the giant bearing plaguing some other pedals that you can land on preventing a full pedal hookup with your shoe. My feet instantly appreciated the extra width as they fit my size 10.5 Five Tens perfectly. Very grippy but also able to reposition if needed. I'll upload pics when I can reduce them to allowable resolution.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Ha ha ha. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I've been scolded by the Lycra warriors for going out mountain bike riding dressed like this. Steel pinned nylon cheapo Chinese flats.
Oh yeah, mid 50's (calendar age)


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

speedygz said:


> Ha ha ha. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I've been scolded by the Lycra warriors for going out mountain bike riding dressed like this. Steel pinned nylon cheapo Chinese flats.
> Oh yeah, mid 50's (calendar age)


You obviously can't be a "proper" mountain biker.

I mean, Crossmarks? Really?


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

NordieBoy said:


> You obviously can't be a "proper" mountain biker.
> 
> I mean, Crossmarks? Really?


Ha ha ha. Definitely not a purist. I was actually looking for Kenda smallblock 8's, & couldn't find any. At short notice. I actually really like the Crossmark II's. Not too heavy, they roll along pretty well, not too noisy, there's not a great deal of mud around here, all in all, I think they do a great job of keeping the rims off the ground.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

What the hell, those are 5-10 issue flops!!


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## OTH Hoosier (Jun 13, 2019)

*Chromag Daggas on Size 10.5 Five Ten FreeRider Pros*

They felt great riding. A couple pedal strikes for sure, but part of that is my BB is too low...need to adjust travel in my fork now that I dropped down to 27.5 wheels from 29. I don't think I'll have more pedal strikes with these for the most part, though I could see it when cornering if I don't keep my inside pedal up due to the wider width. The finish, pins/grip, and size are reasons I think this pedal stands apart. It not super lightweight or thin but not overly heavy/thick either. Good solid contaminant protection with double seals. Quality pedal. Should be for their $180+ price tag, though I found them for less.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

I tore my ACL and had to have reconstructive surgery in February of 2019. When I got the go-ahead to begin outdoor riding I was told not to use my clipless pedals as pulling up or twisting could damage the doctor's work. So I rode with flats for about 6 weeks.

I hated flat pedals. The loss of power was huge. The lack of foot control over the pedal drove me nuts. I rode on flats long enough that I was riding moderately technical terrain and managing foot control on them was not fun. I had good pedals and good shoes too. Nothing is as good as clipless. As far as I can tell, the only benefit to flats is putting your foot down quickly. I don't put my foot down so it isn't a benefit for me.

Ride flats? No way!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I hated flat pedals. The loss of power was huge.


Curious if you use a power meter and if so how much power did you lose? Tests I've seen comparing clipless vs. flats have shown a lot less difference between them than I would have expected.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I tore my ACL and had to have reconstructive surgery in February of 2019. When I got the go-ahead to begin outdoor riding I was told not to use my clipless pedals as pulling up or twisting could damage the doctor's work. So I rode with flats for about 6 weeks.
> 
> I hated flat pedals. The loss of power was huge. The lack of foot control over the pedal drove me nuts. I rode on flats long enough that I was riding moderately technical terrain and managing foot control on them was not fun. I had good pedals and good shoes too. Nothing is as good as clipless. As far as I can tell, the only benefit to flats is putting your foot down quickly. I don't put my foot down so it isn't a benefit for me.
> 
> Ride flats? No way!


Obviously, there is technique that is in no way intuitive with platforms. I'd love to see you ride a trials comp and subsequent hospital bill. Foot down/dabs are counted against the rider so no, you may not do it! Also, as J.B. said... With proper technique, a platform does not loose power by more than a marginal amount. Being able to perform a balance check is a requirement, not optional, so, those with clipless usually become irrecoverable if not always.

What foot control? Again, technique is developed, not gifted.

I gave a couple pair of Ti clipless pedals away because of the lack of release at a time when a balance check was required.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

beastmaster said:


> I hated flat pedals. The loss of power was huge. The lack of foot control over the pedal drove me nuts. I rode on flats long enough that I was riding moderately technical terrain and managing foot control on them was not fun. I had good pedals and good shoes too. Nothing is as good as clipless. As far as I can tell, the only benefit to flats is putting your foot down quickly. I don't put my foot down so it isn't a benefit for me.
> 
> Ride flats? No way!


Hmmmm. Yet I can manage bunny hops, jumps, motor through rock gardens, do wheelies etc all while wearing flip flops/thongs, on flat pedals. I don't think the pedal style is the issue here.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

What is good is just getting out and riding no matter what the style of pedal you have. You want to push/pull on the 4x power then clipless is good and might as well buy some Lycra to get some good air flow, more streamlined for that extra bit smooth sailing.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> Hmmmm. Yet I can manage bunny hops, jumps, motor through rock gardens, do wheelies etc all while wearing flip flops/thongs, on flat pedals. I don't think the pedal style is the issue here.


Wut? You ride in a thong with flip flops?? :eekster:


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

BansheeRune said:


> Wut? You ride in a thong with flip flops?? :eekster:


Education. It's underrated  https://www.kaplaninternational.com/blog/9-australian-slang-words-you-should-know


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

In my earlier post I should have acknowledged the importance of platform pedals for developing proper bike handling techniques. My bad.

It is true that to become a technically proficient rider platform pedals will help you develop the control and various moves required to be that better, smoother rider. Once these skill sets are developed, clipless offers unparalleled, quick response times in many situations that are more challenging on flat pedals while maintaining more efficient pedal stroke in many demanding moments. I can make all the required moves while clipped in but on flat pedals those same moves happen just a little more slowly as I have to concentrate on keeping my foot engaged with the pedal. It would be almost imperceptible to someone watching, but I feel it.

I have ridden mountain bikes for decades using both types of pedals (and even the dreaded toe clip rat traps). Clipless pedals work significantly better for me. Do what works best for you.

By the way, I don't telemark anymore either.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> Education. It's underrated  https://www.kaplaninternational.com/blog/9-australian-slang-words-you-should-know


But sarcasm is NEVER underrated, ever...


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

So THATS what they are called. Back in the day, they just called them "pedals". I've been confused ever since, what with the then-newer clip on pedals being called clipless and other abuses of the English language. 

I tried clipless on my road bike in the early oughts, and that's when I first experienced the metatarsal pain that plagues me to this day. It wasn't the clipless pedals fault, it would have developed anyway because of my mom. The pedals just brought it out for the first time.

So yeah, flats all around for me. The last thing my decaying knee needs is to have to twist just to get off my damn bike. I don't care how efficient they supposedly are, I think they are dumb.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Whatever happened to those "Power Grip" pedals? They attempted., with some success, IMO, to bridge the gap. 

In order to use flats intuitively a rider has to have been riding them on a BMX since childhood. I was born in the pre BMX era, so everything requires a degree of concentration for me on flats.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

You can still buy them, lots on fleabay aka ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...2&_nkw=Power+Grip+Performance+Pedals&_sacat=0



Radium said:


> Whatever happened to those "Power Grip" pedals? They attempted., with some success, IMO, to bridge the gap.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Radium said:


> Whatever happened to those "Power Grip" pedals? They attempted., with some success, IMO, to bridge the gap.
> 
> In order to use flats intuitively a rider has to have been riding them on a BMX since childhood. I was born in the pre BMX era, so everything requires a degree of concentration for me on flats.


If that were only true... I know some folks that began trials after, yse, after riding exclusively wingtips and vicegrip pedals that do just fine. It takes more riding and less looking down at the pedals than folks realize. It does become automatic over time.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Powergrips were a bad idea, IMO. They only release when your heel moves outward, but in a crash or fall it’s not unlikely to have one heel twist inward and tighten the strap. The few people I knew who tried them didn’t keep them long. 

I don’t think the learning curve on flats is that bad. There is one, but it’s a matter of a few weeks.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

PowerSnags! When not in them you've got a nice loop of fat webbing hanging down.
I'm 52 with a couple months to go to 53. Ride both. For my mountain rigs its flats for a while now, Hope pedals with 5.10 Freerider Pros. Hope pins are rounded so a little less damage when you shin yourself, I've had no problem with grip.
My commuter/CX is clipless XT's. My feet have honestly flown off those more often than the platforms, but that may be because I'm trying to do the same trail and jumps on a cyclocross bike. 
I feel no difference in power. The last year we did grinding climb in Whistler, the climb up to Lord of the Squirrels, I did it no prob. A couple years ago I did it with the XT clipless and was suffering on the climb. It had more to do with how much in shape I was.
I did trials for a number of years, that will learn you flat pedal techniques. And shinguards use.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Taroroot said:


> PowerSnags! When not in them you've got a nice loop of fat webbing hanging down.
> I'm 52 with a couple months to go to 53. Ride both. For my mountain rigs its flats for a while now, Hope pedals with 5.10 Freerider Pros. Hope pins are rounded so a little less damage when you shin yourself, I've had no problem with grip.
> My commuter/CX is clipless XT's. My feet have honestly flown off those more often than the platforms, but that may be because I'm trying to do the same trail and jumps on a cyclocross bike.
> I feel no difference in power. The last year we did grinding climb in Whistler, the climb up to Lord of the Squirrels, I did it no prob. A couple years ago I did it with the XT clipless and was suffering on the climb. It had more to do with how much in shape I was.
> I did trials for a number of years, that will learn you flat pedal techniques. And shinguards use.


They saved my bacon with that release a few times. I'm still not ready to go back to them tho.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Taroroot said:


> My commuter/CX is clipless XT's. My feet have honestly flown off those more often than the platforms, but that may be because I'm trying to do the same trail and jumps on a cyclocross bike.


Blew out twice unintentionally on my ride this past Sunday even though I turned up the tension, figured what was happening. On the technical climb what I think is going on is using lots of body English, my foot released sideways, as SPD is designed to. With platforms I can torque foot, and shift around and still retain grip on pedal. Maybe I'll get some inexpensive composites and try out platforms on the cross bike too, heh. Prob should if I ever get around to making curly wurly adventures videos I was thinking of.


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## atarione (Aug 24, 2018)

New Flat Pedals on my trance (as the old Giant Pinner DH pedals are recalled.. happily mine didn't fail but / If you have VP Harrier / Giant Pinner DH pedals be aware there is a recall).

blah blah.. new pedals.. Deity TMAC platform pedals.. loving them.


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## OTH Hoosier (Jun 13, 2019)

atarione said:


> New Flat Pedals on my trance. Deity TMAC platform pedals. loving them.


Nice choice. I almost went with those before I saw the Chromag Daggas.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

I hadn’t ridden a MTB with flat pedals till recently. 
After tearing one hamstring tendon off, requiring surgical repair, my surgeon banned me from clip ins for 3 months. (Since expired)
Sick of stupid crashes, I paid for a coach. (Turned out to be an unbelievably good coach. Literally- I can’t believe how good he is!)
The coach recommended I continue on the flats (DMR V10s/5ten freerider pros)to learn the correct technique. 
So far, so good, but at this stage I’ll be going back to my favorite Crank Bros ”Eggbeaters” (I know not many people like them. I love them. Never release unexpectedly. Always release when required. But not automatically when going over the bars - ask me how I know.....)

I’m actually enjoying many things about the flats. But, I don’t like it when my feet aren’t in the “perfect” position. Quite distracting with my OCD. 

I put my carbon soled Sidi shoes on to ride a hard tail around the cycle way recently. 
(The flats are on my “Enduro” bike.)
Horrible, hard things after getting used to the 5ten “slippers”


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## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

I hit the 50-mark this past April. I guess I can officially check out this section. lol

I've forever been on flats since my BMX days some 35+yrs ago. I see too many videos of guys going OTB or crashing with their bikes attached to them and that scares me. I do see the benefit of being attached to your bike but I like the option of being able to ditch the bike if heading into a crash.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Trinimon said:


> I hit the 50-mark this past April. I guess I can officially check out this section. lol
> 
> I've forever been on flats since my BMX days some 35+yrs ago. I see too many videos of guys going OTB or crashing with their bikes attached to them and that scares me. I do see the benefit of being attached to your bike but I like the option of being able to ditch the bike if heading into a crash.


I jumped off my motorcyle years ago.
Bike totalled.
Me a few scratches. 
Ya i use flats with 5,10


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

33red said:


> I jumped off my motorcyle years ago.
> Bike totalled.
> Me a few scratches.
> Ya i use flats with 5,10


Yeah. I got hit last year by a lady driving a 4wd ute/pickup down the wrong side of the road (corner cutting to the extreme) I ended up flying up in the air, over the bonnet, and landing in an untidy heap on the road. Broken hip and wrecked knee. The bike ended up wedged under the ute/pickup further down the road. If I was still attached to the bike, who knows if I'd be typing this now? That's only one instance of many various ones, where being able to bail has saved more serious injury. 
I'm not against clipless, at all. They have their place for sure. Road bikes, groomed trails etc.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

Flat V Clips - “Safety”

I had the front wheel slide unexpectedly. My foot was unclipped and onto the ground before I knew it. I was slightly amazed how “automatic” and fast it happened.
Conversely.
My surgeon assures me, that one foot still being clipped in while cartwheeling was the reason for surgery being required.

It’s entirely possible that a foot slipping off could cause a crash. (More “floating” off - not much “slippage” on good flats!)

Most of us have lost at least a little blood from our legs from the studs on flats.

It is very much a personal preference rather than one being “better”.

I’m enjoying riding the flats, but at this stage intend returning to the clip ins, eventually.

“All Mountain” riding, currently on a new Giant Reign.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

speedygz said:


> Yeah. I got hit last year by a lady driving a 4wd ute/pickup down the wrong side of the road (corner cutting to the extreme) I ended up flying up in the air, over the bonnet, and landing in an untidy heap on the road. Broken hip and wrecked knee. The bike ended up wedged under the ute/pickup further down the road. If I was still attached to the bike, who knows if I'd be typing this now? That's only one instance of many various ones, where being able to bail has saved more serious injury.
> I'm not against clipless, at all. They have their place for sure. Road bikes, groomed trails etc.


I've been involved in more wrecks than I care to remember while clipped in and have never once found myself still attached to the bike after I came to my senses. You do somehow become unclipped.

Flats are great btw, lot's of advantages.


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

Well, this thread has reached a conclusion:







everyone has their own

I'm digging my Catalyst pedals. I may buy a set for my son's bike too. Pricey but I really like them.


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## RhB HJ (May 20, 2020)

25 years ago for my 50th I got a hand me down Bianchi from my son, he's one of those hardcore guys. Anyway it came with half toe clips, very handy stuff with flat pedals. 
20 years ago, after moving to the Okanagan, one of the neighbours saw me riding the MTB and invited me along for a ride to get the lay of the land in our Park.
The one track we took is called "Cow Plunge"; he was ahead, I followed . He stopped and commented that I was doing OK. Which was when I hit something and ended up talking out of the shrubs. No problem, the bike went the other way.
But I had the last laugh, getting down to the pasture he was in a big hurry to get across the fence. Turns out he's really afraid of cattle. 

After that we had to sing while riding through "Bear Valley". 

PS new half toe clips arriving tomorrow, I sure missed them on the new MTB.


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

I’m not sure if I answered yet, but I’ll give my opinion again just in case, because—well, it’s the internet and everyone wants to know what I think. 

I’m more afraid of my feet slipping off the pedals than I am of my feet being stuck to the pedals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bikemoto885 (Jul 11, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've been involved in more wrecks than I care to remember while clipped in and have never once found myself still attached to the bike after I came to my senses. You do somehow become unclipped.


 That's not been my experience.

I'll take shin strikes all day everyday over munted shoulders, bruised thighs, broken glasses, tweaked wrists, you name it, all from the bike taking me down with it. Often from a standstill after an unexpected stall in steep terrain.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

celswick said:


> I'm not sure if I answered yet, but I'll give my opinion again just in case, because-well, it's the internet and everyone wants to know what I think.
> 
> I'm more afraid of my feet slipping off the pedals than I am of my feet being stuck to the pedals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And I'm the exact opposite. To me, clipless on MTB's makes as much sense as seatbelts on motorcycles


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

speedygz said:


> And I'm the exact opposite. To me, clipless on MTB's makes as much sense as seatbelts on motorcycles


never thought of it that way....


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## Harvo (Dec 30, 2003)

Just put flats on my new bike after riding clipless since I was in my 20s. 
Rock gardens and jumps are going to take some serious practice. My first jump on flats looked like some kind of slope style trick gone wrong.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> And I'm the exact opposite. To me, clipless on MTB's makes as much sense as seatbelts on motorcycles


What about the bench seat??



Harvo said:


> Just put flats on my new bike after riding clipless since I was in my 20s.
> Rock gardens and jumps are going to take some serious practice. My first jump on flats looked like some kind of slope style trick gone wrong.


Gotta get the hang of em. It takes a little time to get it right but totally worth the effort.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> What about the bench seat??


Yep, flats on an MTB are like a bench seat in a gymkhana car.

A bench seat with spikes to hold you in place 

Trying flats again on my single speed, they're not going anywhere near the Anthem.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I’m 55 (stb 56), and have been clipless on my bikes, including a majority of SS miles, for the past 18 years. Tried flats (actually, one side flat; other side SPD) for the first time a couple weeks ago, on my Ripmo. Hated them.

Yes, I understand that you “need to ride them for a couple weeks to get used to them”, but F that. I sort of figured out how to keep my feet on the pedals on some downs, but the moment I went to hammer up a climb, it was an utter fail, as my feet came off and went every which way.

I greatly prefer being clipped in for pedaling efficiency and being able to move and position the bike underneath me (love the analogy of bench seats in a sports car...perfect!). I can unclip quickly without a thought, so that’s not an issue.

YMMV...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

My only problem so far with flats is keeping my left foot on the pedal. That’s my (super) weak leg. It randomly comes off the pedal. Climbing, descending, straight and level. I constantly focus on heavy feet. Just don’t have the strength/coordination to keep my foot planted yet.


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## bikemoto885 (Jul 11, 2016)

NordieBoy said:


> Trying flats again on my single speed, they're not going anywhere near the Anthem.


I would have thought it was the other way around.

On the SS the very nature of both the high-cadence top end, and the low cadence high-torque demands where you could pull on the up-stroke would be very beneficial. Pulling up on the up-stroke is not normally any advantage, except during short-duration extreme efforts such as launching your finish line sprint.

The Anthem has gears so your cadence should be less extreme. And bouncy bits, both ends, so less chance of feet being dislodged. But more chance of you being dislodged, if you take it more technical places than the SS.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

bikemoto885 said:


> I would have thought it was the other way around.
> 
> On the SS the very nature of both the high-cadence top end, and the low cadence high-torque demands where you could pull on the up-stroke would be very beneficial. Pulling up on the up-stroke is not normally any advantage, except during short-duration extreme efforts such as launching your finish line sprint.
> 
> The Anthem has gears so your cadence should be less extreme. And bouncy bits, both ends, so less chance of feet being dislodged. But more chance of you being dislodged, if you take it more technical places than the SS.


The rigid single speed is the fun bike and the Anthem is the XC race bike.
I'll try flats, but my XT Trail clipless pedals will be going back on no matter what happens


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

NordieBoy said:


> The rigid single speed is the fun bike and the Anthem is the XC race bike.
> I'll try flats, but my XT Trail clipless pedals will be going back on no matter what happens


Why bother? You've already made up your mind, so what's the point?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

speedygz said:


> Why bother? You've already made up your mind, so what's the point?


I don't know anyone who races with flats.
But for a cruise in the hills on a sunny day, or a technique session, flats may have an advantage.

Only one way to find out.

There's a difference between a made up, and a closed mind.


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

celswick said:


> I'm not sure if I answered yet, but I'll give my opinion again just in case, because-well, it's the internet and everyone wants to know what I think.


 LOL 
I may use this statement for every post entry from now on. It is the internet and everyone wants to know what I think, in fact they can't wait. 
They are scrolling around right now just to find my latest opinion.:thumbsup:


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

A bit late to the show but I'm going to ask for a pair of Raceface Chester flats for my 71st birthday coming up in a few weeks. My son has them on is SC Heckler (not the electric version) and I like riding them. 

My shoes, for the moment, will be a pair of Converse All Stars I have in the closet. They seem to work quite well and its hard to beat the "cool" factor of the All Stars.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

Rev Bubba said:


> A bit late to the show but I'm going to ask for a pair of Raceface Chester flats for my 71st birthday coming up in a few weeks. My son has them on is SC Heckler (not the electric version) and I like riding them.
> 
> My shoes, for the moment, will be a pair of Converse All Stars I have in the closet. They seem to work quite well and its hard to beat the "cool" factor of the All Stars.


:thumbsup: Post of the thread!


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## jkb818 (May 24, 2020)

Since half the time i'm on my bike i'm cruising around with my 3 and 5 year olds i put flats on my Switchblade. At first it felt very strange especially going off jumps and charging down rock gardens. I pushed through those feelings though and that has forced me to improve my technical skills. Now i am super comfortable on flats. By no means have i given up on clipless though. I can see myself going back one day.


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## bikemoto885 (Jul 11, 2016)

Interesting review of the science of efficiency gains from clips. In a nutshell, there is none! Except they didn't study full-on sprints which they expect is likely to be beneficial.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)




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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*510's & Raceface Chesters*

I switched from Time ATAC to flats 11 days ago. No issues. It took about an hour, maybe less, to learn to keep my foot planted on the pedal but that is no longer an issue.

My riding involves a lot of rock gardens and rougher trails that might cause me to bounce of the pedals but it doesn't.

I continue to ride with Look Keo clipless on my road bike. That's a different animal completely.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

tom tom said:


> View attachment 1346533


That's why you should never ride without shin knee guards

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Rev Bubba said:


> A bit late to the show but I'm going to ask for a pair of Raceface Chester flats for my 71st birthday coming up in a few weeks. My son has them on is SC Heckler (not the electric version) and I like riding them.
> 
> My shoes, for the moment, will be a pair of Converse All Stars I have in the closet. They seem to work quite well and its hard to beat the "cool" factor of the All Stars.


So, the All Stars don't get more chewed up by those sharp little pins than 5.10's, for example?

I like the Chesters, too. You might be starting another fashion trend here, Bubba :thumbsup: !


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

When my wife offered to buy me the Five Tens for my birthday, who was I to say no? My LBS had one pair in stock in my size and lucky me, they were the grey and orange ones and go perfectly with my orange Chesters and Orange Santa Cruz 5010.

Just cause I'm old, I don't have to dress like I'm going to my own funeral. Color is good!

The blue All Stars can join the grey and red ones for daily wear.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Rev Bubba said:


> When my wife offered to buy me the Five Tens for my birthday, who was I to say no? My LBS had one pair in stock in my size and lucky me, they were the grey and orange ones and go perfectly with my orange Chesters and Orange Santa Cruz 5010.
> 
> Just cause I'm old, I don't have to dress like I'm going to my own funeral. Color is good!
> 
> The blue All Stars can join the grey and red ones for daily wear.


I never thought of it like that. I suppose those other pairs could be pressed into pedaling service as well. 
Winner winner chicken dinner!


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## bikemoto885 (Jul 11, 2016)

tom tom said:


> View attachment 1346533


Doesn't matter whether you get smacked in the shins by a flat or clipless pedal, it still bloody hurts. So that's a moot point.

The problem with clipless is that it exposes almost the entire rest of your body to injuries when you can't unclip. Shoulders, elbows, hips and thighs particularly.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

The "unclipping" twist is also not great for aging, cartilage poor knees.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

OldBlue950 said:


> The "unclipping" twist is also not great for aging, cartilage poor knees.


Actually, it is just another nuisance item for the lazy! *raises hand*
And my favorite shoes aren't clipless ready. Shoes that feel like gluelam are out too.

tom tom, you might look at a pair of Defacto pedals! That is the upgrade for laser shin removal with the high number of pins just laying in wait for an unsuspecting shin to be in range!


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## bongo_x (Aug 20, 2006)

I started riding again after moving to Tucson and a few years off. I was surprised at how different it was here and I've rethought several things, like knee pads, and clipless pedals.

I rode Time Atacs for the last 10-15 years or so, Shimano before that, and Power Grips for many years until I was convinced about clipless. The only time I rode flat pedals was when I was a kid.

It's only been a half dozen rides, but no clear winner so far. Definitely a trade off, but I'm probably going to stick with the flats for a while. I like riding in clipless a lot more, but I also like coming home with less blood on the outside of me.

The biggest surprise so far is realizing how much I ratchet my feet back and forth to get around obstacles and maneuver technical sections. It's kind of automatic and I never thought about it, but it works totally different on the flats and I still haven't adjusted.
I always see people mention striking pedals on rocks, etc. I don't think I've done that a handful of times in 30 years. The first ride on flats I did it 3 times in 2 miles, but calmed down on later rides.

On average technical rides I don't notice as much difference pedaling, but I have come off the pedals a few times, mostly on tricky climbs. But those were the same situations where I got stuck in the clipless, so it was hard to say if I would have made it or crashed with the clipless.

On wide open dirt and on the streets it feels pretty weird, like something isn't working right. And more tiring.

The pins have ripped holes in my socks, pants, car seats, already.


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## OTH Hoosier (Jun 13, 2019)

Stick with the flats they will soon feel much more natural and you'll be better balanced and in control and able to manipulate your bike and dare I say a better rider as a result. Dropping your heels a bit as you come across the top of your pedal stroke will let you push them without slipping and conversely pulling them across the bottom with your toes down will be probably the last part of the pedal stroke to master. Even though clipless advocates complain you can't "pull up" with your hammies on the upstroke, you actually can still unweight your legs via trying to lift the pedals just like you would with clipless with pretty dramatic effect when climbing and trying to get some power down and increase your cadence. I finally bought some shin guards to compliment my knee pads and can't figure out why it took me so long to do it. Enjoy mastering your flats!


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

I’ve been on flats for about 9 months now. After a lifetime on clips. (And always a fan)
Initially my surgeon insisted. And my coach recommended. 
I was about 99% sure I would return to my beloved Egg Beaters (even have a Ti set)
I’m now about 50/50 if I’ll ever go back.

Even though I’m “old” and pretty useless. My favorite riding is Enduro (style, not racing). Jumps/Berms. Also ride single track, especially with wooden “features”.

Biggest single “issue” is feet feeling imperfectly placed.
Second is feet moving a bit sometimes when airbourne. 
I try and lift both heels to pull the bike up on the launch, and drop the front heal for flight/landing.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

skypig said:


> I've been on flats for about 9 months now. After a lifetime on clips. (And always a fan)
> Initially my surgeon insisted. And my coach recommended.
> I was about 99% sure I would return to my beloved Egg Beaters (even have a Ti set)
> I'm now about 50/50 if I'll ever go back.
> ...


What needs to happen is for platform pedal usage to become automatic and subconscious as opposed to something actively thought about. It does take time to burn that into operating mechanics.

Imperfectly placed feet can be shifted accordingly during the ride on an as needed basis. Don't do it when it can adversely effect your groove but at a convenient opportunity.

Feet moving in flight is caused by incorrect pedal/foot angle. Toes slightly down usually takes care of it. If you have smooth finished chrome traction pins, ditch em for grub screws or similar that will maintain traction between shoe and pedal.

Pedal/foot angle is a personal preference item that many do as it suits them. Practice of positioning and attack angle will bring you to the point that platforms will do everything a spud can do with the shoes that you want to wear as opposed to the SPD specific shoes that send me directly to the chiropractor's office for repair.

Sounds like you are getting used to the platforms and need to work on subtle nuances to get feeling more confident. Keep at it...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rod9301 said:


> That's why you should never ride without shin knee guards
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


True story.

I have rash guards made from soccer shin guard "sleeves" to protect against pedal strikes and sagebrush, then for big rides where it's rocky I'll wear knee/shin combo pads.

My shins have never looked better


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

*Back to the future*

My experiment continues.
recap:
Toe clips/ straps/cleats on road bikes "back in the day".
Clipless pedals since MTB began for me.
Hamstring surgery required "no clip ins" for a while.
Also my new coach (trying to avoid further surgery) wanted me to "learn the techniques" on flats.

Got the 5tens and Vaults.
Gradually adapted. 
The longer I rode flats, the less I thought I would eventually return to the "egg beaters" (I like them, I know many don't).

After a year, of riding most days, I bolted the egg beaters back on.

Biggest things I noticed (I was surprised.)

Five 10s are comfy like sneakers. Sidi carbon soled shoes, with "Specialized" inserts are not.

Sidi carbon soled shoes do not "squish" on every pedal stroke. Wasting energy. I think this difference is greater than the extra "pull" etc associated with being clipped in. The flats grip so good that only "pulling straight up" is lost, the other 3/4 stroke is there.

The easy "float" on the Crank Bros" feels less secure than the planted feel of the pins into the sole. Counter intuitively, it might take a while to feel as secure "clipped in".

I think I'm back to clip ins.
For the "efficiency" and "perfect foot position" (every time.)

All this based on 22 rides in technical terrain while at "work".
I'm on the plane home, where the trails are more "sendy" and the jumps are bigger, so we will see.....


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Never in a million years did I think I'd be a platform convert, but since wiping out and messing myself up pretty good a while back, I've put them on my 5010c and am forging ahead with the trial runs as fast as the days are smoke free around here.
Today I had a foot come off when I started to crank, and was just lucky that the pedal didn't come around and get me in the shin. I think maybe my heel was too low, but I'll be paying more attention to that happening again.
I can see there's going to be quite the learning curve, but I plan to stick it out until I'm comfortable with them.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Anyone perusing this thread should get it by now.


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## bongo_x (Aug 20, 2006)

Been riding flats over a couple of months now, still sort of eh.
The only real advantage is getting off the pedals quicker, the disadvantage is I'm out of the pedals all the time. Lots of technical stuff I'm pretty sure I could make with clipless, I don't. I'm riding like a caveman. I had no idea how much finesse I was using with my feet clipped in. I've had 10x more pedal strikes in the last few weeks than the last couple of decades. Still freaks me out when it happens.

After it being out of service for most of this time I finally got my street (not road) bike going again and as soon as I clipped in it felt good. I also figured out that my cleats are crap and that's why I kept falling and getting stuck in the pedals. I couldn't tell as much on the rocks.

I'm going to stick with it a while, I've got the pedals and shoes already, and it's not that much worse. And I can't afford injuries, so maybe it will get better.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

The only time I'd consider bolting myself to my bike is when I'm riding fixed wheel and I have steep downhills. 

It's the sort of thing to do when you're capable of maintaining a high (well into 3 figure) cadence. Very few people are.

As for getting any benefit of the upstroke, I'll believe that when I see an ordinary cyclist do 100 inverted pullup reps on an inversion machine.

There's no need to be sucked into the special ballet slippers and technical pedals unless you're a high level athlete, the money would be better spent on upgrading the wheels on your bike.

I use old fashioned track pedals and ordinary shoes. They are light and cheap and capable of taking a bashing on rocks.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

My shins and ankles are covered with bloody scrapes and scars. As far as I can tell it only improves my appearance. Unless you're a bleeder, who cares?


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

Flats for life









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I gotta say...after ~4 years on mtb flats, I'm getting the hang of it. I did gouge my knee a little the other day (blood dripped on my shoe), but bloodying myself has gotten to be rare.


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

I clip in on the road, ride flats on the trails. Currently on Chesters, but my big feet are demanding something with a bigger platform, so I'll likely go with the DMR Vaults


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

I think riding with flats=needing shin guards

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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Velobike said:


> The only time I'd consider bolting myself to my bike is when I'm riding fixed wheel and I have steep downhills.
> 
> It's the sort of thing to do when you're capable of maintaining a high (well into 3 figure) cadence. Very few people are.
> 
> ...


3 figure cadence is each time my bike has this rider in motion... I ride trials on platforms without drama mentioned throughout the thread since it keeps Nurse Ben from seeing my happy ass in the ER!

Frankly, I treat all of my bikes as though they are equipped with an LS V8!

Upstroke is not different than keeping a gator's jaws closed.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Pretty much, also works great for rocks and various other impacts, combine them with knee pads and you're set up for success.



rod9301 said:


> I think riding with flats=needing shin guards
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*It's been almost 4 months*

Four months since I switched back to flats on my 71st birthday. No issues at all and little need to relearn anything. My son got me Raceface Chesters and my wife, Five-Ten shoes, for the BD.

Today will be my 97 day riding this year. Taking out spring when I was still using my Times, and days on my road bike where I remain happily clipped in, I now have about 50 days on flats. No new scars, cuts or any other injuries from them.

I love to climb and flats have not presented any issues their either. I'm climbing faster now, if anything.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

let me fix that math for you.

Riding flats + poor techniques = needing shin guards



rod9301 said:


> I think riding with flats=needing shin guards
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

I began MTB on Flats 4 years ago. Love them and never had any issues other than the usual tore up shins or calves. Goes with MTB. I switched over to clipless almost 2 years ago and it really improved my climbing (I'm 57) and needed the extra power to get up the rooty, rocky tech areas. Last fall I visited my son in Huntsville and rode over to Monte Sano (absolutely the ROCKIEST trails Ive ever seen!) and took my bike with flats. I felt like I was a beginner all over again as the Flats made me feel on unfamiliar with what I was doing. Ended up crashing several times and those rocks don't give much like dirt. LOL


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

Radium said:


> Anyone perusing this thread should get it by now.


I don't quite get it...is the consensus of the thread that flats are better than clipping in ?

I'll echo similar sentiments of those who wear clips, I seem to have more confidence when things get rocky or I pick the wrong line going uphill. When things are flat I spend less time thinking about foot position and more time putting the power down and picking a good line. And I never have an issue getting out of my pedals, I have SPDs with loose tension..haven't fallen down yet.

I'm a new rider and I DO want to start doing features, small jumps and drops. I need to practice bike skills, bunny hops and such. With clipped in pedals hold me back with this stuff?


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

PTCbiker said:


> I don't quite get it...is the consensus of the thread that flats are better than clipping in ?
> 
> I'll echo similar sentiments of those who wear clips, I seem to have more confidence when things get rocky or I pick the wrong line going uphill. When things are flat I spend less time thinking about foot position and more time putting the power down and picking a good line. And I never have an issue getting out of my pedals, I have SPDs with loose tension..haven't fallen down yet.
> 
> I'm a new rider and I DO want to start doing features, small jumps and drops. I need to practice bike skills, bunny hops and such. With clipped in pedals hold me back with this stuff?


I think the only consensus is that: Personal preference varies.
I've enjoyed my foray onto flats. Now returning to clip ins.
Certainly there have been advantages in learning some "technique" which is a requirement for using flats effectively. I feel these techniques may help a little, even when clipped in.

"Will clip in pedals hold you back"? Not in my experience, if you are comfortable riding in them, and confident releasing when required.

Except for balance wheelies, and unicycling I prefer clip ins.
(Have even considered bolting the eggbeaters on a Unicycle. Considered..)


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm 56, have had 3 knee surgeries over the years from playing sports past college. Left has had major acl reconstructive surgery and has 3 screws inside. I ride One Up flats and 5 tens so I very rarely come off the pedals. I use to ride clipless but not no more. I'd rather get cut on my shins then not be able to unclip and do some serious injury to me.


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## JCKID58 (Nov 20, 2017)

Turned 61 this year, been riding clipped in since the mid-90's. Moved to Tennessee from Ohio 10 years ago. The trails here are rocky and rough. Some are the kind of trails if you don't make the climb you can go off a steep edge and roll for a long way. I noticed my balance isn't what it used to be and the thought of not un-clipping in time made me very tentative on sketchy climbs. So I went to flats this year, still trying to adjust. On top of that my feet started going numb, then it moved into my ankles after some hard rides on the flats. Using HT pedals and 5-10s. Switched back to my Shimano clipless the last few rides and didn't get any numbness or tingling. My son and I took off in a state park for a couple hours just wandering around on some paved trails last Sunday on my flats and my right foot is still tingling and numb feeling. Anyone else experiencing this?


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

JCKID58 said:


> Turned 61 this year, been riding clipped in since the mid-90's. Moved to Tennessee from Ohio 10 years ago. The trails here are rocky and rough. Some are the kind of trails if you don't make the climb you can go off a steep edge and roll for a long way. I noticed my balance isn't what it used to be and the thought of not un-clipping in time made me very tentative on sketchy climbs. So I went to flats this year, still trying to adjust. On top of that my feet started going numb, then it moved into my ankles after some hard rides on the flats. Using HT pedals and 5-10s. Switched back to my Shimano clipless the last few rides and didn't get any numbness or tingling. My son and I took off in a state park for a couple hours just wandering around on some paved trails last Sunday on my flats and my right foot is still tingling and numb feeling. Anyone else experiencing this?


I had that issue using some shoes from 661 back in the early 2Ks, but the switch to 5/10s took care of it for me. There was a stiffness to the 661s that seemed to cause me problems that the new ones don't have.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

JCKID58 said:


> Turned 61 this year, been riding clipped in since the mid-90's. Moved to Tennessee from Ohio 10 years ago. The trails here are rocky and rough. Some are the kind of trails if you don't make the climb you can go off a steep edge and roll for a long way. I noticed my balance isn't what it used to be and the thought of not un-clipping in time made me very tentative on sketchy climbs. So I went to flats this year, still trying to adjust. On top of that my feet started going numb, then it moved into my ankles after some hard rides on the flats. Using HT pedals and 5-10s. Switched back to my Shimano clipless the last few rides and didn't get any numbness or tingling. My son and I took off in a state park for a couple hours just wandering around on some paved trails last Sunday on my flats and my right foot is still tingling and numb feeling. Anyone else experiencing this?


Morton's Neuroma creeping up on you?

See a podiatrist.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

JCKID58 said:


> Turned 61 this year, been riding clipped in since the mid-90's. Moved to Tennessee from Ohio 10 years ago. The trails here are rocky and rough. Some are the kind of trails if you don't make the climb you can go off a steep edge and roll for a long way. I noticed my balance isn't what it used to be and the thought of not un-clipping in time made me very tentative on sketchy climbs. So I went to flats this year, still trying to adjust. On top of that my feet started going numb, then it moved into my ankles after some hard rides on the flats. Using HT pedals and 5-10s. Switched back to my Shimano clipless the last few rides and didn't get any numbness or tingling. My son and I took off in a state park for a couple hours just wandering around on some paved trails last Sunday on my flats and my right foot is still tingling and numb feeling. Anyone else experiencing this?


First, change to another pair of shoes and test ride... May have to do this a couple times to get it sorted. 
In more than 50 years of riding bikes, I have yet to have trouble other than when I experimented with SPD and those nasty plywood soled shoes designed for them. No tingling or other signs of irritated nerves, just aches and pain that required prescriptions to deal with.

Lacing too tightly can cause this issue, as can a shoe that doesn't quite work for you.
After some experimenting, podiatrist is an option or perhaps a chiropractor.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I rode sod’s for 18 years. I always had numb toes/feet. Since switching to flats/5-10’s I haven’t had that problem.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I rode spd’s for 18 years. I always had numb toes/feet. Since switching to flats/5-10’s I haven’t had that problem.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

BujiBiker said:


> I rode spd's for 18 years. I always had numb toes/feet. Since switching to flats/5-10's I haven't had that problem.


Can't blame anyone for making their choice based upon what works for em. 
I require a shoe that allows me to feel the bike and what it is telling me... Shoes with a tungsten sole prevent that communication and are therefore inherently dangerous.


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## JCKID58 (Nov 20, 2017)

BansheeRune said:


> First, change to another pair of shoes and test ride... May have to do this a couple times to get it sorted.
> In more than 50 years of riding bikes, I have yet to have trouble other than when I experimented with SPD and those nasty plywood soled shoes designed for them. No tingling or other signs of irritated nerves, just aches and pain that required prescriptions to deal with.
> 
> Lacing too tightly can cause this issue, as can a shoe that doesn't quite work for you.
> After some experimenting, podiatrist is an option or perhaps a chiropractor.


Apparently I'm the outlier! I'm having the opposite problem of those who have replied. I bought one pair of high end SPD shoes years ago and did not like the super stiff platform, since I have actually bought lower end shoes because they are more flexible. Up until I went to the flats, which for the most part I like, I have never had issues with numbness or nerve irritation. I need to figure it out, I already have 5-10 free riders, supposedly one of the better pair of shoes for flats. Buying multiple pairs of expensive shoes is probably not an option. I swiped my sons Chesters off his bike, they have a smaller platform than the HT pedals. I have yet to try them on an actual ride though. My wife has suggested seeing her chiropractor, never been to one before.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

JCKID58 said:


> Apparently I'm the outlier! I'm having the opposite problem of those who have replied. I bought one pair of high end SPD shoes years ago and did not like the super stiff platform, since I have actually bought lower end shoes because they are more flexible. Up until I went to the flats, which for the most part I like, I have never had issues with numbness or nerve irritation. I need to figure it out, I already have 5-10 free riders, supposedly one of the better pair of shoes for flats. Buying multiple pairs of expensive shoes is probably not an option. I swiped my sons Chesters off his bike, they have a smaller platform than the HT pedals. I have yet to try them on an actual ride though. My wife has suggested seeing her chiropractor, never been to one before.


Flats require the use of more lateral leg and foot input, maybe you just need to get used to it? Just a thought...


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

JCKID58 said:


> Apparently I'm the outlier! I'm having the opposite problem of those who have replied. I bought one pair of high end SPD shoes years ago and did not like the super stiff platform, since I have actually bought lower end shoes because they are more flexible. Up until I went to the flats, which for the most part I like, I have never had issues with numbness or nerve irritation. I need to figure it out, I already have 5-10 free riders, supposedly one of the better pair of shoes for flats. Buying multiple pairs of expensive shoes is probably not an option. I swiped my sons Chesters off his bike, they have a smaller platform than the HT pedals. I have yet to try them on an actual ride though. My wife has suggested seeing her chiropractor, never been to one before.


Frankly, I had better form and function from a pair of Ribo trials shoes over anything else. 5-10 Guide Tennies have been good but are a little heavy and stiffer than I would prefer. Closest thing to Ribo is an older pair of running shoes that allow for pedal feel and more natural foot function.

Look in your closet, just beyond those Floorsheims, grab those and try em out... No need to buy, try something that you already own. Bike police might issue a citation for riding with non-bike shoes, pay the fine and ride your bike!


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## JCKID58 (Nov 20, 2017)

BansheeRune said:


> Frankly, I had better form and function from a pair of Ribo trials shoes over anything else. 5-10 Guide Tennies have been good but are a little heavy and stiffer than I would prefer. Closest thing to Ribo is an older pair of running shoes that allow for pedal feel and more natural foot function.
> 
> Look in your closet, just beyond those Floorsheims, grab those and try em out... No need to buy, try something that you already own. Bike police might issue a citation for riding with non-bike shoes, pay the fine and ride your bike!


Floorsheims !!!??? OK Dad  All I have are flip flops and trail running shoes in my closet. I was using an old pair Asics trail running shoes initially and then some Salomons. They had too many ridges and cleats to get a good grip. The trial shoes look interesting though, never knew they existed. I'm thinking my problem is pushing down so hard on the flats it creates a lot of pressure on the bottom of my feet, maybe? I probably need to learn how to "spin" better with the flats. Out for a ride after work today, put the flats back on. I am going to work on my pedaling technique tonight.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I do have problems with my left foot staying on the pedal. I have about 1/4 of the strength in that leg. It will constantly pop off the pedal if I hit bumps, drops etc. I just have to build the muscle, and memory. On the rare occasion it’s locked in, it’s perfect.


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

Just got the *DMR Vault Lacon* pedals ('cause I'm fancy) and so far I like them a lot better than the RF Chesters I had. The Chesters are solid, but I have a big foot and the little extra real estate of the Vaults is noticeable and appreciated. Just have to pair them with a better pair of shoes to get a real sense of how good they are.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

JCKID58 said:


> Floorsheims !!!??? OK Dad  All I have are flip flops and trail running shoes in my closet. I was using an old pair Asics trail running shoes initially and then some Salomons. They had too many ridges and cleats to get a good grip. The trial shoes look interesting though, never knew they existed. I'm thinking my problem is pushing down so hard on the flats it creates a lot of pressure on the bottom of my feet, maybe? I probably need to learn how to "spin" better with the flats. Out for a ride after work today, put the flats back on. I am going to work on my pedaling technique tonight.


One thing to look at is when the power is applied... Doing it too late is a loss of power and efficiency. Doesn't matter if I use PL400 and glue your feet to the pedals or you run platforms. Most like a stiff soled shoe, where I cannot get the feedback I look for without a natural attachment. When you develop a good pedal stroke and timing, you really have no need to mash silly hard on the pedals since it wastes fuel. Work on the pedal form and when you get it right, pain and discomfort are no longer an issue. 
Proper form and I can spin stupid high cadences and leave roadies like a dirty shirt!

A good place to look at the trials shoes is https://www.tartybikes.co.uk/shoes/c125.html

Basically, look for similar midsole/outsole design and good to go.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

I put flat pedals on my old bike and went riding with a buddy and think I'm going to give flat a try on all my bikes. This is strange but I felt my control and feel and more confidence on the sketchy stuff because I knew I wouldn't fall against a tree if I lost it. Only downside I felt was in the fast sections a foot would come off a pedal but it was no big deal to get pedaling again.


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## Trail Weapon (Oct 23, 2020)

Old guy here (53)
I’m running RF Chesters on my Specialized Chisel.
I really like them except for the one time that I botched a jump, my foot came off the pedal and the pins raked my shin.
Took weeks to heal completely and it looked like I was mauled by some rabid wildcat.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Trail Weapon said:


> Old guy here (53)
> I'm running RF Chesters on my Specialized Chisel.
> I really like them except for the one time that I botched a jump, my foot came off the pedal and the pins raked my shin.
> Took weeks to heal completely and it looked like I was mauled by some rabid wildcat.


Have you tried other flat pedals? I tried Chesters and was shocked at how much they sucked.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

celswick said:


> I'm not sure if I answered yet, but I'll give my opinion again just in case, because-well, it's the internet and everyone wants to know what I think.
> 
> I'm more afraid of my feet slipping off the pedals than I am of my feet being stuck to the pedals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Exactly! trying to sum up why I do not like flat pedals, you nailed it. I been using clipless for 20 years, at 62 years old I feel safer with clipless.


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## bongo_x (Aug 20, 2006)

JCKID58 said:


> Turned 61 this year, been riding clipped in since the mid-90's. Moved to Tennessee from Ohio 10 years ago. The trails here are rocky and rough. Some are the kind of trails if you don't make the climb you can go off a steep edge and roll for a long way. I noticed my balance isn't what it used to be and the thought of not un-clipping in time made me very tentative on sketchy climbs. So I went to flats this year, still trying to adjust. On top of that my feet started going numb, then it moved into my ankles after some hard rides on the flats. Using HT pedals and 5-10s. Switched back to my Shimano clipless the last few rides and didn't get any numbness or tingling. My son and I took off in a state park for a couple hours just wandering around on some paved trails last Sunday on my flats and my right foot is still tingling and numb feeling. Anyone else experiencing this?


I had that a lot but it got better. My feet were going totally numb after a 2 mile ride!
I'm wear Ion Raid II shoes and they're just really stiff all around. Clipless shoes I've worn are stiffer on the bottom, but more flexible everywhere else. Now that they're finally breaking in it's better. It took quite a while.

Another part of the problem that took a while to figure out is that for some reason I need my seat lower when riding flats. Not just a tiny bit from the difference in the height of the shoes and pedals, but lower than I've ever been used to. It's taken some getting used to.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Ryder1 said:


> Have you tried other flat pedals? I tried Chesters and was shocked at how much they sucked.


I never used them but i read a ton of praises for chesters.
Maybe they were a bad combo with your shoes?
Last 3 years i use five10 and any pedal works well.


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## thegoop (Oct 5, 2020)

PTCbiker said:


> I put flat pedals on my old bike and went riding with a buddy and think I'm going to give flat a try on all my bikes. This is strange but I felt my control and feel and more confidence on the sketchy stuff because I knew I wouldn't fall against a tree if I lost it. Only downside I felt was in the fast sections a foot would come off a pedal but it was no big deal to get pedaling again.


I put flats on my bike (52 years old) and couldn't be happier. Not the least of which after a trail ride ending up at a watering hole, and being in comfortable shoes to kick back and have a beer.

I found some lightly used HT ME-03 for a reasonable price (shocked how light they are), and don't think I will ever go clipless again. With that said, I also don't ride nearly as hard as I used to.


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## JCKID58 (Nov 20, 2017)

bongo_x said:


> I had that a lot but it got better. My feet were going totally numb after a 2 mile ride!
> I'm wear Ion Raid II shoes and they're just really stiff all around. Clipless shoes I've worn are stiffer on the bottom, but more flexible everywhere else. Now that they're finally breaking in it's better. It took quite a while.
> 
> Another part of the problem that took a while to figure out is that for some reason I need my seat lower when riding flats. Not just a tiny bit from the difference in the height of the shoes and pedals, but lower than I've ever been used to. It's taken some getting used to.


I've tried to make some adjustments in my foot placement and even how tight I am tying my shoes! I have always set up my clipless shoes with the pedal spindle right under the balls of my feet. My shoes were always pretty snug also. My last few rides I have been intentionally moving my foot forward on the pedals. Really felt weird for a while, but with my foot forward I feel like I can grip the front of the pedal better on the up-stroke and "almost" spin like I am clipped in. That seemed to eliminate most of the hard pushing I was doing. Loosening up the laces at the bottom of the 5/10's has also helped, again it felt odd at first but these 2 things have pretty much eliminated the numbness and tingling. I get bounced off them occasionally, which still scares the crap out of me though. After 25 years of being clipped in this has been a long learning curve for me. Except for road rides I can't see me going back to clipless at this point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bongo_x said:


> Another part of the problem that took a while to figure out is that for some reason I need my seat lower when riding flats. Not just a tiny bit from the difference in the height of the shoes and pedals, but lower than I've ever been used to. It's taken some getting used to.


Most people place their foot closer to the middle of their foot on flats as opposed to more under the ball of the foot with clipless. That can make a big difference for seat height.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Trail Weapon said:


> Old guy here (53)
> I'm running RF Chesters on my Specialized Chisel.
> I really like them except for the one time that I botched a jump, my foot came off the pedal and the pins raked my shin.
> Took weeks to heal completely and it looked like I was mauled by some rabid wildcat.


Hmmm, 







Wildcat in the wild.

Never piss off my bike... Wildcats just use the shins for scratching posts!


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## Trail Weapon (Oct 23, 2020)

That’s a nice lookin ride right there!


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

anything that keeps us riding is acceptable.


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

mike.miller151 said:


> After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a commitment to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


 so... replying the the OP, I use clipless because that is what cross country pros use, and i can see why. So unless I can not physically tolerate clipless pedals I shall use them. Can anyone prove to me that clipless pedals are not used by UCI pro cross county mtb racers? personally I only use clipless pedal,s but opinions are like assholes, so i am just another asshole.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I use clip'd-in pedals...

Us ole farts need all the help we can get!!

PS - don't make out like your a pro... it's a crutch & I'll take two thanks 

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk


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## jupiter58 (Jan 13, 2016)

never said i was a pro. My mistake, please forgive me. I really need to respect seasoned riders like you more.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

33red said:


> I never used them but i read a ton of praises for chesters.
> Maybe they were a bad combo with your shoes?
> Last 3 years i use five10 and any pedal works well.


Using two different pairs of 5-10s, I found Chesters small and lacking grip. Worst pedal I've tried. Give them a try and report back. Might work well if you have small feet.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Trail Weapon said:


> That's a nice lookin ride right there!


Thankya.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

This weekend I finally got my first serious pedal bite. That's a price I am willing to pay after happily running flats for 15+ years and I will definitely keep using them. This is on the back of my calf, so the knee pads didn't help.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Ouch! I hope it heals soon. What happened? Crash??


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Skooks said:


> This weekend I finally got my first serious pedal bite. That's a price I am willing to pay after happily running flats for 15+ years and I will definitely keep using them. This is on the back of my calf, so the knee pads didn't help.


Nooooice!!!! :thumbsup:


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Gumby_rider said:


> Ouch! I hope it heals soon. What happened? Crash??


Naw, just managed to slip a pedal on a particularly rough section. That doesn't happen to me very often and this time I just got unlucky.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Skooks said:


> This weekend I finally got my first serious pedal bite. That's a price I am willing to pay after happily running flats for 15+ years and I will definitely keep using them. This is on the back of my calf, so the knee pads didn't help.


noooowwwww your'e doing it right!!!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Skooks said:


> View attachment 1373367
> 
> 
> This weekend I finally got my first serious pedal bite. That's a price I am willing to pay after happily running flats for 15+ years and I will definitely keep using them. This is on the back of my calf, so the knee pads didn't help.


*Proper!​*


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## milogearloose (Jul 6, 2013)

Finally made my way through this whole damn thread. Lots of good stuff in here. Thanks, all. 

But one thing I’ve not seen mention of - SPD multi-angle release cleats (Shimano SH-56). 
I switched to those two years ago from regular SPD cleats. Great easy fast release. I ride SS 95% of the time. 69 and loving SS here in Utah. (The PGG helps a lot -- pre-geezer gearing.) 

My skill set pales in comparison to any of you all but I feel like a kid out there. Still have a FS for the big climbs/descents. 

Back to the cleats - love them compared to the standard SPDs. Don’t need to twist, can roll out. Have them set very low and they release FAR more easily and intuitively than regular SPDs. They click a little when pulling up, being so loose, but don’t let go until I want them to, then they're quick. Near-instant dabs, for example. 

However, due to a recent Achilles strain from trail running have been on flats the last six weeks (Crank Bros. Stamp/5.10 Freeriders). Quite the adjustment. Kept flying off the pedals at first. They’re OK now, and I can carefully move my feet and even do my lame-bunny hops up to about 8-10”, but I’m looking forward to being able to get back on the cleats for all the usual SS reasons. 


BTW, help me out, please, what is a "balance check"? (Quick Google didn't turn it up.)


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## ojito (Jun 20, 2010)

About to turn 48, but honestly I feel like I relate more to the 'old' riders now than the whippersnappers. 

I've read much of but not this entire thread, and confirmed my suspicion that I am one of the few (if not only) still using toe clips, haha. During my formative mountain biking years, like for most of us, the choice was either clips or clipless. I loved the idea of clipless, but didn't want to be forced to wear riding shoes if I wanted to bike to the store or just cruise around town, so never went for it. Now, since I have always kept the straps really loose, for me clips offer the best of both worlds... never a problem getting out in a bail, pedals are not so grippy that my foot can't float around a bit, and I don't have much possibility of feet coming off. I don't know, I might try flats just for fun, since you never know, but just haven't felt super compelled when this still works great for me. Although, it is getting a lot harder to find clip-compatible pedals, which is a problem since mine do get pretty smashed up eventually.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I use Crank Bros flats. Had my worst wrecks and leg problems clipped in (ahem, clipless)

Have used toe clips, loose with great success. Pedal change to use them if needed. Stlll have a clipless set up somewhere.

I may be sacrificing a bit on flats, but not concerned. I do notwant to go that debate.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

EKram said:


> I use Crank Bros flats. Had my worst wrecks and leg problems clipped in (ahem, clipless)
> 
> Have used toe clips, loose with great success. Pedal change to use them if needed. Stlll have a clipless set up somewhere.
> 
> I may be sacrificing a bit on flats, but not concerned. I do notwant to go that debate.


Your bike is gonna soap your mouth! My bikes hate that term...

If there is sacrifice using platforms, there is user error present.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I recently went back to flats after years of spd's. I'm still finding that I cheated being clipped in, and need to remember to load the pedals at times where I didn't have to, but it's been fun, and in many ways I prefer being back on flats..


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> If there is sacrifice using platforms, there is user error present.


Well, I guess I'm that user. Or maybe I've just got a different skillset or different goals? I've noted before in this thread that my observations indicate flats aren't appropriate if you're trying to maximize your XC or endurance race results (remember, a good result is relative). That's important to me and using flats would prevent the personal best finish. Even when I'm not racing, I spend at least some portion of a ride (sometimes all of it) putting the hammer down. It's way more fun for me to put the hammer down when I'm clipped in.

I just spent the money to make my snow bike clipless (new pedals and winter riding boots). I spent the last two winter seasons on it using flats, but over the past couple of weeks I've alternated rides between flats and clipless (switched over my summer setup). No question - I have way more fun when clipped in, even getting the thing in the air on occasion and it feels like a performance bike rather than a barge. Apparently the one skill I do have is unclipping more-or-less instantly when I need to, so the whole "get your foot down faster with flats" doesn't resonate with me.


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## ColinD (Aug 11, 2015)

Can I ask?... I have EEE wide feet and have a hard time finding MTB specific shoes wide enough. None of them seem to offer "WIDE" This blows me away! There must be more neanderthal-fred flintstone types (like me) out there. Hopefully some are reading this thread. Any brand/style recommendations?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ScaldedDogCO said:


> Do any of you... mature folks... use shin protection with your flats, or is it not necessary?
> 
> Have Chester's, but haven't put them on yet.
> 
> ...


I always wear shin or shin/knee protection when I ride. Between sagebrush, rock, pedals and just all around clumsiness, it bears having trashed legs.

I also just upgraded to a full face helmet which I wear most of the time. It pays to apply wisdom earned through living.


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## Fun on Wheels (Nov 27, 2013)

ColinD said:


> Can I ask?... I have EEE wide feet and have a hard time finding MTB specific shoes wide enough. None of them seem to offer "WIDE" This blows me away! There must be more neanderthal-fred flintstone types (like me) out there. Hopefully some are reading this thread. Any brand/style recommendations?


I use walking shoes. Waterressist warm and grippy. The 5-10 soles were niet solid enough for my weight.....


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

I've been rockin' flats for 15 years or so. I don't like any other kind of pedal. I do need to get a new pair of shoes. I'll probably go with 5 10s again.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

After many years running clipless on all my bikes, I started switching over the flats a few years ago, but did so first on my road/gravel bike. Then on my rigid fat bike - first due to clipless being a hassle in the snow, but then also in drier weather as well. I run flats for the same reason I run rigid in the summer on that bike: extra challenge and to develop and keep up skills.

This past year i started going with quality flats on my FS bike as well. It has been very useful learning tool, and on less rough terrain I actually find it more fun. What really surprised me on this bike was how much more connected to the trail I felt. Cornering on big pedals with good shoes was a real eye opener.

That said, when things get hairy, and I want to charge as hard as I can through rough stuff, I still prefer clipless.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Capusta, when I get into the tech and obstacle fields, platforms (Cause my bikes hate the term flat) are keeping the hospital at bay! Getting trialsy requires being able to move without disturbing the balance and bike which is not an option with clipless. Trials is my basis with dirtin'. Mellow XC style trails, clipless can be awesome but not for trialsin.

With my trials bike, clipless is a hospital trip in progress! The seatless bike can be a blast but also get a bloke broken up in a serious way.









Pure trials.









Pithy trail trials.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> Capusta, when I get into the tech and obstacle fields, platforms (Cause my bikes hate the term flat) are keeping the hospital at bay! Getting trialsy requires being able to move without disturbing the balance and bike which is not an option with clipless. Trials is my basis with dirtin'. Mellow XC style trails, clipless can be awesome but not for trialsin.
> 
> With my trials bike, clipless is a hospital trip in progress! The seatless bike can be a blast but also get a bloke broken up in a serious way.
> 
> ...


Well, you do you. I'll do me.

I'm not talking about trials stuff.

Though I have thought about getting a trials bike.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

kapusta said:


> Well, you do you. I'll do me.
> 
> I'm not talking about trials stuff.
> 
> Though I have thought about getting a trials bike.


I just made comment as to why I use platform vs clipless. I do what I do regardless!!! Trialsy is my personal requirement since it solves the obstacle handily.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Ryder1 said:


> Clipless may get you more connected to the bike but flats get you more connected to the trail.


There is a lot of truth to that.

For me, there are times I am more concerned with the former, other times the latter.


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

Colo Springs E said:


> I've been rockin' flats for 15 years or so. I don't like any other kind of pedal. I do need to get a new pair of shoes. I'll probably go with 5 10s again.


I've got a pair of Afton Keegans that have been a pleasant surprise on and off the bike. Plenty of grip and comfortable enough when off the bike. There are plenty of other shoes out there beside 5 10's.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

mtnbiker64 said:


> I've got a pair of Afton Keegans that have been a pleasant surprise on and off the bike. Plenty of grip and comfortable enough when off the bike. There are plenty of other shoes out there beside 5 10's.


I tried on a pair of Pearl Izumi X-Alp Flows this past weekend and they were really comfortable. I've read that the grip is rated as just average, but I may end up getting these.


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

Rode flats this weekend on the trails for the first time in about 20 years. My primary bike is down for wheel issues so rode the old bike. I had flats on just for dinking around. It was definitely different. I was getting a better feel for it by the end of the weekend but sure miss being connected to the bike. My riding buddy has been alternating back and forth for the last year or so and has adapted ok. I still prefer clipless... at least for now.


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## tomboyjr (Jul 16, 2009)

20 years ago I would use flats only in the winter so I could wear warm hiking boots. Always hated them-lol.
Then about 10 years ago my buds and I got into riding skinnies a lot. So I went to flats again, though this time I bought good flat pedals, and really good shoes. That made all the difference for me. 
Now I'm not living in the northeast anymore, but I'm still riding flats all the time, I've come to like it better .


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## CHROMAG19 (Mar 12, 2014)

Flats for life! No reason to change.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mtnbiker64 said:


> I've got a pair of Afton Keegans that have been a pleasant surprise on and off the bike. Plenty of grip and comfortable enough when off the bike. There are plenty of other shoes out there beside 5 10's.


i got my Keegans 2 years ago, and they have been the best riding shoe I have ever owned. I use them for BMX too!!


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Flats during my bmx/freestyle days in the 80's and 90's and tried it again when I first started mt biking in '02 but too many shin slaps had me switching to clipless and staying that way since. 
Granted, 20 years ago flats and shoes weren't as good as I'm sure they are now but as long as I can still do a small whip or clip-out and do a one-footer over a small jump I'm happy.


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## straw (Nov 9, 2004)

I’m 62 and switched to flats 15+ years ago and am having way more fun. I can climb any hill the other clipless guys in our group are climbing. I’ve tried all kinds but now I’m sold on James Wilson’s large platform pedals from Peddling Innovations. So much more control and stability plus they engage your hips more=more power. I run James flats on my fat bike, singlespeed and full suspension. I use a shorter flat on my road bike. 
Cheers 
Dan


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## NeoYeti Clyde (Dec 17, 2020)

Grew up riding BMX in the 70's/80's and of course road flats. I bought a new 29er HT 10 years ago and came with the clipless pedals. I gave it a shot but I actually took some pretty bad falls - switched to flats and am loving it and way less falls! I tried to do it - I really did - but I just love putting on my Vans (for me even better than 5 10s) and going for a ride -- just like I did was I was 14 yrs old (rocking my Cycle Pro with Tuff Wheels no less -- always been a Clydesdale). For me the biggest challenge was getting clipped in after stopping on a gnarly trail or uphill and getting going again. Funny thing is my shins look better now than when I rode clipless and I don't even wear pads!


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

Deity TMACs on all of my bikes. I even put a spare set on my wife's NordicTrak s22i Peloton clone.

I rode clipless for about 15 years, starting with the Onza HO deathtraps from the mid-90's (team sponsor), then moving to Shimano. I first got interested in trying flats around 2007, swapping back and forth between flats and clipless for a long time. It look a couple of years of riding flats exclusively to get to the point that my technical skill with them surpassed what I previously felt comfortable riding with clipless. I gave the Pedaling Innovations Catalyst pedals a try for a year before trying a friend's bike with TMACs about 4 years ago. I ordered my first pair as soon as I got home and haven't had any interest in another pedal since.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

andy f said:


> Deity TMACs on all of my bikes. I even put a spare set on my wife's NordicTrak s22i Peloton clone.
> 
> I rode clipless for about 15 years, starting with the Onza HO deathtraps from the mid-90's (team sponsor), then moving to Shimano. I first got interested in trying flats around 2007, swapping back and forth between flats and clipless for a long time. It look a couple of years of riding flats exclusively to get to the point that my technical skill with them surpassed what I previously felt comfortable riding with clipless. I gave the Pedaling Innovations Catalyst pedals a try for a year before trying a friend's bike with TMACs about 4 years ago. I ordered my first pair as soon as I got home and haven't had any interest in another pedal since.


TMACs are AMAZING. I don't get why more pedals are not shaped like them. I think in the battle for thin, the importance of the shape got lost.

Next time you need pedals take a look at the new Diety Deftraps. They are good for the same reasons as the TMAC. Not as concave as the TMACs, but still barely concave with none of the thick-axle-in-the-middle nonsense, and non-beveled front/back..... and the platform is just as large..... and 1/3 the price.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Clipless on my Singespeed because I need every last erg of power. My other "race/ long XC" bike I also have clipless, but my Honzo gets flats because it's just for funning around. Also flats on the commuter bike so I don't have to futz with a bunch of shoes at work.


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## Alex (May 1, 2004)

I've always used flat pedals (apart from a short time in my teens when I had a 10-speed Racer with cages, which were soon removed). Currently using Nukeproof Horizons, and I haven't slipped off them yet. Unless you're entering competitive races/downhill I don't see the point. The one thing I would say is don't go for long pins: longer pins = less grip.


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

mike.miller151 said:


> After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a commitment to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


This is an older thread, so not sure will be seen, and there was plenty of good input! I'll add my own, I started wearing flats back in 2017. Then I was using a very old pair of 5-10 shoes. I upgraded in 2019 or so to the new 5-10 shoes, and have a set of Deity Compound pedals. I'll probably switch back and forth between flats and clipless. I only have one mountain bike but if I get a second, xc oriented bike, I'll probably use only clipless. Of course I only have clipless on my road bike.
The thing I notice about flats is that it is a more than a little bit harder to ride up technical sections. Their not quite as efficient as clipless and harder to clear tight spots. I feel like I need more momentum and rely on momentum more to clear climbing uphill over rocks, then I did with clipless. Still, worth it all around!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I was getting swollen knees after long XC / Trail rides on my old mtb. We went on vacation to the mountains and brought our bikes. I discovered I had not packed my clipless shoes. There happened to be a bike rental shop near by who sold me some cheap flat pedals to get me by. What a pressure relief on my knees. Did three or four long rides and no knee problems what so ever. Plus it really brought me back to my BMX and motocross roots. Hitting jumps with more confidence then ever since. I just have less power on the climbs. Little extra hike-a-bike time. All good.


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## old shredder (Mar 15, 2021)

I have been a flat pedal user for a long time. I have a nice pair of Relic Keel that are still going strong, sadly no longer in production. I have spare bearings and spindles for these so as long as i renew the pins when my feet start to loose grip , they should outlast me.


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

old shredder said:


> I have been a flat pedal user for a long time. I have a nice pair of Relic Keel that are still going strong, sadly no longer in production. I have spare bearings and spindles for these so as long as i renew the pins when my feet start to loose grip , they should outlast me.


I hope they don't outlast you, my friend! Reminds me of an old story about Tinker Juarez in his heyday of racing. He told the interviewers there was a set of Time ATAC pedals he liked and stocked up on them, like 25 sets of the things or what have you! Then they stopped making that model.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

What shoes are you guys using? I picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi X-Alp Launch (previous model on closeout). I like them okay, but they are most definitely not as grippy as the old 5 10s I had for years. It kind of doesn't matter too much, given the type of riding I do nowadays (mostly trails, not as much technical stuff as I used to). Still, it's a little disappointing that a pair Nike running shoes I have are actually grippier. These soles don't stick where you have to kind of pull up on them to release them from the pedal's screws. But they also definitely don't slip off the pedal either. They are nice and stiff, if that matters to you. I give them 3 out of 5 stars, there are most definitely better out there I'm sure.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Colo Springs E said:


> What shoes are you guys using? I picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi X-Alp Launch (previous model on closeout). I like them okay, but they are most definitely not as grippy as the old 5 10s I had for years. It kind of doesn't matter too much, given the type of riding I do nowadays (mostly trails, not as much technical stuff as I used to). Still, it's a little disappointing that a pair Nike running shoes I have are actually grippier. These soles don't stick where you have to kind of pull up on them to release them from the pedal's screws. But they also definitely don't slip off the pedal either. They are nice and stiff, if that matters to you. I give them 3 out of 5 stars, there are most definitely better out there I'm sure.


5/10


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Colo Springs E said:


> What shoes are you guys using? I picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi X-Alp Launch (previous model on closeout). I like them okay, but they are most definitely not as grippy as the old 5 10s I had for years. It kind of doesn't matter too much, given the type of riding I do nowadays (mostly trails, not as much technical stuff as I used to). Still, it's a little disappointing that a pair Nike running shoes I have are actually grippier. These soles don't stick where you have to kind of pull up on them to release them from the pedal's screws. But they also definitely don't slip off the pedal either. They are nice and stiff, if that matters to you. I give them 3 out of 5 stars, there are most definitely better out there I'm sure.


Ha! I ride in a pair of vintage Waffle Racers and feel at one with my bike. Frankly, I prefer a natural feel as opposed to strapping 1" plywood to my feet. That is where trials shoes have been typically the choice. Always enjoyed the venerable grey suede Ribo shoes that were offered by Tarty Bikes of the UK. As for SPD, those are fine for road and that would be my limit. Five Ten has not been the same in years and it looks as though they have abandoned the Guide Tennies these days.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Now that I'm pushing the big 70, I've decided that I'm not gonna ride clipped in no 'mo. g
Going on 3 weeks ago, I had switched my 29er back to clips, which I rode for close to 20 years. I rode around town for a few weeks with them and I felt like it was becoming natural again. Then, riding up the hill from my driveway, I started in too high a gear, slowed down, and couldn't un-clip from the R. pedal, so I fell to the right, caught my neighbor's truck bumper on my right shoulder, and ripped the RC right out. I'm slowly building something back at PT, but I definitely am not riding clips again. I've been happily riding flats, ever since the "newer" style of flats came out in the last decade. 

At my age, with my recent medical issues, I just can't afford to injure myself like I used to.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

Radium said:


> Now that I'm pushing the big 70, I've decided that I'm not gonna ride clipped in no 'mo. g
> Going on 3 weeks ago, I had switched my 29er back to clips, which I rode for close to 20 years. I rode around town for a few weeks with them and I felt like it was becoming natural again. Then, riding up the hill from my driveway, I started in too high a gear, slowed down, and couldn't un-clip from the R. pedal, so I fell to the right, caught my neighbor's truck bumper on my right shoulder, and ripped the RC right out. I'm slowly building something back at PT, but I definitely am not riding clips again. I've been happily riding flats, ever since the "newer" style of flats came out in the last decade.
> 
> At my age, with my recent medical issues, I just can't afford to injure myself like I used to.


Damn sorry man. One of the reasons Ive never clipped in-- just dont trust myself haha


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Colo Springs E said:


> What shoes are you guys using? I picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi X-Alp Launch (previous model on closeout). I like them okay, but they are most definitely not as grippy as the old 5 10s I had for years. It kind of doesn't matter too much, given the type of riding I do nowadays (mostly trails, not as much technical stuff as I used to). Still, it's a little disappointing that a pair Nike running shoes I have are actually grippier. These soles don't stick where you have to kind of pull up on them to release them from the pedal's screws. But they also definitely don't slip off the pedal either. They are nice and stiff, if that matters to you. I give them 3 out of 5 stars, there are most definitely better out there I'm sure.


I still use my Afton Keegans, and absolutely love them. Use them for BMX as well...I need to get a second pair actually...


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

As for flat pedal shoes, I've tried three or four different shoes but settled on 5-10s. They work just fine.


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## jfwebber (Jun 4, 2008)

55 here and just started riding flat pedal last year after years of riding clipless. Riding TMACs which are fantastic. For shoes I switch between 5-10s and Ride Concepts but I prefer the 5-10s.


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## DeeCount (Oct 3, 2020)

Flat pedals since birth 😀
I did use clipless pedals for a month or so in 1999, just never got along with the feeling of being clipped in. I suppose I could have adapted if I gave it more time, but don't feel the need, I'm not racing or competing in anything (just the daily battle against father time). I need to move around, adjust position, and bail immediately if necessary 👍
Currently riding Shimano PD-M8140 and love them.


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## iliketexmex (Oct 29, 2016)

Just the daily battle against Father Time... I think I need reinforcements because I don’t think I’m winning


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## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Flats "All push no pull"


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Ah Ha. We are on page 27 of the debate. All I have to say is; if I start pedal mashing, I have quad/knee issues no matter what the pedals are.

Going to the schraeder vs. presta valve debate now.🐰


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Juansan said:


> Flats "All push no pull"


Clipless: "99% push, 1% pull."


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

I have been working hard to change my style from mashing to spinning, and flats just don't seem to work as well for me.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

kapusta said:


> Clipless: "99% push, 1% pull."


Basically. There's plenty of "pull" with flats, it's just not pulling up.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

deuxdiesel said:


> I have been working hard to change my style from mashing to spinning, and flats just don't seem to work as well for me.


You are learning, I suppose. I can get plenty of spin going on platform pedals that have proper traction pins along with super sticky shoes.
My typical cadence is 125-175 with sprints that hit 200. Those sprints are rare since they consume so much fuel at an alarming rate.

I actually had an idiot try to explain how cadence is measured, which was preaching to the choir at best and actually, highly insulting. But, fvck that person... I did offer a live demo for shits n grins.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

After a lifetime of clipping in, I’ve been riding flats for over a year. 5.10s/DMR Vaults.
It’s been an interesting and useful experience. (Stemmed from Surgeons orders and coaches recommendation)

I’m now comfortable on the flats, but am going back to clipping in.

I’ve fitted my “Eggbeaters” back on one of my bikes.

The things I’ve missed turned out to be a little surprising:
1. Efficiency. NOT the fabled “pull up”, but the lack of squish on every peddle stroke. Compared to the carbon soles - the 5.10s feel like you might as well use rubber cranks.
2. Feet always in the same (good) position. On flats, I still spend a little time thinking “Foots in the wrong position, but I can’t change it before this obstacle/feature/jump”. They grip so well, I need to lift my foot clear and try again - can take a few goes.
3. Even though the the grip is great, it’s not as good as clipped in for security (feet not moving or coming off), and even though I’m now much better (technique) with the flats, “cheating” and lifting the rear is more effective/reliable for me while attached.


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## Juansan (Dec 30, 2020)

Let Doddy explain it to you. GMBN


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

skypig said:


> After a lifetime of clipping in, I've been riding flats for over a year. 5.10s/DMR Vaults.
> It's been an interesting and useful experience. (Stemmed from Surgeons orders and coaches recommendation)
> 
> I'm now comfortable on the flats, but am going back to clipping in.
> ...


It's this type of post that discourages me from trying "Flats". Pretty sure I already arrived at the same conclusion without having to even try them.
I am entrigued however by the magnetic pedals.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

The issue I am running into with flats is that I have not found a pair or dedicated flat pedal shoes with wide, grippy soles that are as stiff under the middle of my foot as I want for longer rides that involve hard pedaling/mashing. Tried on a few different models of 5-10s and Ride Concepts and the Hellions I got were among the stiffest under the arch of my foot, but I am finding they are still too soft. My hiking shoes give much better support (I believe there is a rigid shank in the middle and rear of the sole), but the sole design is just not as good as flat pedal shoes.

I had read that the RC Livewire was stiffer than the Hellion, and considered trying that, but when I talked to a guy from RC, he was adamant that the construction or the lowers on the two was identical and there would be no difference in the support I was looking for.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Put a carbon insole that will stiffen the shoe. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Who's bounced out of their flats when hauling ass down washboard or cobble filled downhills? Might that be more of an issue when riding a hardtail?


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## Oey12 (Aug 15, 2020)

I clipped in for over ten years and have been using flats for the last two. I will never go back to clipped because I love the freedom. A high quality flat is paramount. In rough terrain on a hardtail, you will definitely bounce around. My OneUp aluminum flats are amazing on my Trance 3 in the rough stuff...set it and forgot it. The RaceFace Chesters are good but it simply doesn’t compare to my OneUps.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> Put a carbon insole that will stiffen the shoe.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Do you have experience with a model to recommend?

I tried a pair years ago. Don't remember what they were, they were someone else's that I tried out. Not the same thing as a stiff sole itself. It seemed more aimed at supporting my arch and stabilizing my foot, which is not something I need. And this is how I see most of the CF insoles marketed. I think if it fit just right it could help, but this one just felt uncomfortable to me. Granted I was trying them with sneakers, but I assume the result would be the same with my Hellions.

If I knew what specifically to look for in a carbon fiber insole, I would try it. But most seem to be marketed towards solving problems I don't have.


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

I have to wonder what type of riding people are doing and to what extent that influences our preferences. I have used flats almost exclusively for over 20 years. I'm not a heart rate monitor kinda guy, I like old school very rocky and rooty technical riding where speeds are pretty slow and you would not be able to establish any sort of consistent cadence for very long at all. Most trails are littered with drops and skinnies and if you go down you'd better get off the bike fast. I tried clipless when they first came out and they seemed a)suicidal and b) more suited to xc or road riding. I don't really noticed not being clipped when I'm in the air, hasn't been an issue for me. I do see where bunny hopping may be easier, but have not noticed it in actual riding. Maybe we just like what we're used to?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I have ridden both clipless and flats on the same chunky/techy southern AZ trails. They're just different. I went back to riding mostly flats last year (and mostly on a hardtail), and I'm enjoying them well enough.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Do you have experience with a model to recommend?
> 
> I tried a pair years ago. Don't remember what they were, they were someone else's that I tried out. Not the same thing as a stiff sole itself. It seemed more aimed at supporting my arch and stabilizing my foot, which is not something I need. And this is how I see most of the CF insoles marketed. I think if it fit just right it could help, but this one just felt uncomfortable to me. Granted I was trying them with sneakers, but I assume the result would be the same with my Hellions.
> 
> If I knew what specifically to look for in a carbon fiber insole, I would try it. But most seem to be marketed towards solving problems I don't have.


I don't remember, but Google it, they are flat and very stiff, and thin.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

Ft.Rock said:


> I have to wonder what type of riding people are doing and to what extent that influences our preferences. I have used flats almost exclusively for over 20 years. I'm not a heart rate monitor kinda guy, I like old school very rocky and rooty technical riding where speeds are pretty slow and you would not be able to establish any sort of consistent cadence for very long at all. Most trails are littered with drops and skinnies and if you go down you'd better get off the bike fast. I tried clipless when they first came out and they seemed a)suicidal and b) more suited to xc or road riding. I don't really noticed not being clipped when I'm in the air, hasn't been an issue for me. I do see where bunny hopping may be easier, but have not noticed it in actual riding. Maybe we just like what we're used to?


I live/ride in Phoenix so I ride a lot of rocky chucky trails (no skinnies for me though) and plenty of just desert 'trail riding' so to speak. Rode clipless in this terrain since ~2003 when I started mtb'ing. Had no problems on very technical trials with clipless...bombed all over Porcupine Rim in Utah, Portal etc etc and always felt very comfortable clipped in. Flash forward to about 1.5 years ago and I decided to try flats for the first time since I was a noob. Expected a LONG learning curve and to hate them climbing and in the chunk. I was dead wrong. Within a few rides (and practicing wheelies, manuals and basic trials moves...very basic) I was hooked and have no plans to ever go back. The freedom and comfort in different situations with minor foot placement changes is awesome and I can't believe it took me so long to give it a try. I'll likely put clipless on my gravel bike when/if I ever get one but for the MTB I'm good on flats at this point. Everyone has different experiences though and if I was a Strava heart rate racey guy on putting in miles and miles then I'd still go with clipless for the mechanical advantages alone.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

Ok, ya'll got me curious now. Someone link a pair decent but reasonable flat pedal and compatible shoe to go with it. Might give it a try after all.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

OneUp composites are about $40, are better than the Chesters, and have easily replaceable pins.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> I don't remember, but Google it, they are flat and very stiff, and thin.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I have Googled it, which is why I know that these things are generally marketed for foot stability, arch support, and knee issues, which are not concerns of mine.

I assumed if you were recommending these, that you had experience with them.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

OldMike said:


> Ok, ya'll got me curious now. Someone link a pair decent but reasonable flat pedal and compatible shoe to go with it. Might give it a try after all.


Diety Deftrap are very large and flat, and are my favorite pedal so far. I like better than the $150 TMACs, the Kona Wha Wha 2s, and the Chromag Synths I've got.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

More worried about appropriate shoes?


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## dman_mb1 (Jan 19, 2007)

I haven’t read all 28 pages, but I’ll chip in with a few comments. Started riding mountain bikes with toe clips, switched to SPD in 1995 or so and used them on trail and road till about 5 years ago. I started getting lots of forefoot pain, especially on longer road rides but also after about 15-20 miles of dirt, with the pain often kicking in on downhills, not just climbing. Tried different pedals and even carbon shoes, no improvement. Switched to 5.10’s and cheapish flats, felt much better and even put flats on my road bike and did a century in my 5.10’s. Have now gone through a few pairs of Freeriders, tried the Pro but less comfortable for me.

Fast forward a few years and the foot pain got worse, tried various sole wedges and metatarsal inserts ... ibuprofen helps too, and just learned to deal with it. But from a control and overall confidence perspective I would never go back. Recently I installed a set of Pedalling Innovations “long” (5” platform length, about 4” wide) pedals. Needed to adjust saddle position and riding style, with my arch centered over the pedal axle and more of a mashing technique. Foot comfort is definitely better, and I also feel like I can put down more power to make it those final few feet of a steep bump, with better traction than just leaning forward and hammering. The width is no greater than the Deity’s I was running but I do feel a few more pedal strikes, but nothing terrible.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> OneUp composites are about $40, are better than the Chesters, and have easily replaceable pins.


To emphasize this: skip the Chesters. There are much better nylon pedal options for about the same money. OneUp are good; I like the Deity Deftraps.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

...and what do your shins and calves look like? A friend rides flats. His shins look like they'd been raked with a


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

My shins/calves? no new scars.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> ...and what do your shins and calves look like? A friend rides flats. His shins look like they'd been raked with a
> 
> View attachment 1927994


My calf has a number of what are likely permanent scars from one particular incident. I can almost map the pins on my TMACs to them. A few minor mishaps as well. Always on my calves never my shins.


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## Srderb (Apr 21, 2021)

I’ve used clipless for years on both mtb and road. Recently trying flats on mtb again and like it. We’ll see...


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I've used flats in the past for lift served, but clipless everywhere else. I have a hand injury right now that makes me want to avoid crashes. I'm heading to Moab Wednesday for 3 days of riding, on flats.....this should be good!


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> OneUp composites are about $40, are better than the Chesters, and have easily replaceable pins.


Better is subjective.

I have both but only ride the Chesters. Thought I'd like the One-Ups better b/c they are larger but I find them lacking grip compared to my Chesters. YMMV. Shoe size/type probably plays a large role in which pedals work best for people. I did buy longer pins for the One-ups but since going back I see no reason to fuss with them at this time.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Of course better is subjective. If I have to point that out.... 

I don't think we need to put disclaimers that posts on a bulletin board are subjective opinions.

I have much better grip on the OneUps, on my tiny size 44 feet.. and 5.10 free riders than I did the Chesters, by a lot.


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> Of course better is subjective. If I have to point that out....
> 
> I don't think we need to put disclaimers that posts on a bulletin board are subjective opinions.


so they are better or not?


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

OldMike said:


> Ok, ya'll got me curious now. Someone link a pair decent but reasonable flat pedal and compatible shoe to go with it. Might give it a try after all.


So I have some old (2009) Kona Jackshit pedals with even older (like 15 years old) 5.10s that are on their third tube of ShoeGoo. I've used these shoes with everything from the Konas to Shinburgers and for me I can't imagine I'd want a better connection. I had a short flirt with Time ATACs I think they were long ago, they were fun whe we were practicing J hops over a dead pigeon in a parking lot but this was early 2Ks and getting in and out of them was not a great experience. Went back to flats and won't go back, but I'm probably not a typical rider - I ride an hour every day, don't care how far I go or how fast. I just go out and ride. And on weekends when I can I'll go to a bike park, but stay more on the tech stuff than flow trails.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

OldMike said:


> It's this type of post that discourages me from trying "Flats". Pretty sure I already arrived at the same conclusion without having to even try them.
> I am entrigued however by the magnetic pedals.


I'm really glad I tried them. (Flats)
Just, for me, clip ins are my preference


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

flats is a great tool for skills development, if that is your things. Once you have the techniques/skills down, what you ride doesn’t matter that much.


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## skypig (May 19, 2020)

Gumby_rider said:


> flats is a great tool for skills development, if that is your things. Once you have the techniques/skills down, what you ride doesn't matter that much.


This ^^
Perfectly sums up 29 pages of experience and opinions.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm convinced the shift to flat pedals was thought up by someone with stock in bandaids. I'm 20 years removed from flats and my shins still have the leftover marks.


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## marathon marke (Sep 26, 2012)

Gumby_rider said:


> flats is a great tool for skills development, if that is your things. Once you have the techniques/skills down, what you ride doesn't matter that much.


Totally agree. After nearly 30 years off the mountain bike (I'm a ultramarathon road cyclist), I returned to the trails last year. I used to ride with toe clips back in the day, and even though all my road riding is with clipless, I had a difficult time getting comfortable with my new mountain clipless when I started back up again last year. So I picked up a pair of good flats and some Shimano flat shoes. Rode them all last fall and got really comfortable with the set up. But I knew I wanted to get into clipless again. So I started this spring with my Shimano XTR pedals and Shimano XC 501 shoes, and haven't gone back to flats since. I love the added connection to the bike, that extra control and maneuverability that clipless allows. Now I'm wondering if I'll ever use my flats again. But I agree that it was that initial time in with them, that allowed me to learn good technique AND improve my confidence, so that I could move back into to clipless again.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

kapusta said:


> I have Googled it, which is why I know that these things are generally marketed for foot stability, arch support, and knee issues, which are not concerns of mine.
> 
> I assumed if you were recommending these, that you had experience with them.


This is what i bought, but i don't remember the model, email them to ask for the stiffest one.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> This is what i bought, but i don't remember the model, email them to ask for the stiffest one.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


You have not said what you bought or the company you bought them from. Who am I supposed to be emailing? Did you mean to include a link?


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## Lou_D (Feb 25, 2013)

Sixty-seven years young and run flats. Have the shin and calf scars to prove it. Main reason I run flats is that I have feet as wide as 2x6!


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## goofyarcher (Jul 12, 2020)

spd all the way , and i like the tight


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Gumby_rider said:


> flats is a great tool for skills development, if that is your things. Once you have the techniques/skills down, what you ride doesn't matter that much.


Ceptin when you ride in a trials comp and really want to stay outta the hospital or morgue.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

kapusta said:


> You have not said what you bought or the company you bought them from. Who am I supposed to be emailing? Did you mean to include a link?


No man you're supposed to read my mind.








XTC Carbon Fiber Graphite Turf Toe Relief Insole


XTC Carbon Fiber Graphite Turf Toe Relief Insole (formerly named The Turf Toe Plate - Carbon Graphite - Flat) is thin enough to fit into most shoes and stiff enough to limit the range of motion of the great toe joint. Two sizes, sold singly. Universal right or left. By Myfootshop.com. 1/pkg.



www.myfootshop.com





Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Both? I just got in a weekend's worth of rides in Moab and Phil's world on a new set of Funn Mamba S pedals. Flats with spikes on one side, clip in on the other. Works seamlessly regardless of the side you pick. Excellent support in either mode, and great ground clearance when clipped in (as the other side of the clipless setup isn't there). The pinless middle of the flats side let spd shoes work just like my flats shoes without cleat interference. I like riding flats. I like riding clips. Getting a little old to bounce due to clips in sketchy sections, now I get to keep riding the sketchy stuff with an easier bail out option. It definitely came into play this last weekend - cleaned sections with confidence that I would have been hesitant to ride aggressively if I weren't on flats.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> No man you're supposed to read my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thanks. I'll drop them a line.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> Ceptin when you ride in a trials comp and really want to stay outta the hospital or morgue.


 I'll sure everyone will keep that in mind next time they are in a trials competition.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

kapusta said:


> I'll sure everyone will keep that in mind next time they are in a trials competition.


Leaving trials basics out of mountain biking is not recommended. Meanwhile, glad you approve!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> Leaving trials basics out of mountain biking is not recommended. Meanwhile, glad you approve!


Sure, and XC racing and road training are also useful.... so should I start blathering on about how important clipless is to XC and Road racing every time someone says they like flats better?
And if you are going to talk competition (since you are the one that brought it up), what % of top DH, XC and Enduro racers are running flats these days in competition?


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## ImaginaryFriend (Mar 24, 2009)

kapusta said:


> Diety Deftrap are very large and flat, and are my favorite pedal so far. I like better than the $150 TMACs, the Kona Wha Wha 2s, and the Chromag Synths I've got.


I love the Deftraps and definitely consider them better than the usual composite recommendation of Chesters. But why do you like them better than the TMACs? Anything other than price?


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

kapusta said:


> Sure, and XC racing and road training are also useful.... so should I start blathering on about how important clipless is to XC and Road racing every time someone says they like flats better?
> And if you are going to talk competition (since you are the one that brought it up), what % of top DH, XC and Enduro racers are running flats these days in competition?


Upset or sompin? Valium is likely recommended for that...


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ImaginaryFriend said:


> I love the Deftraps and definitely consider them better than the usual composite recommendation of Chesters. But why do you like them better than the TMACs? Anything other than price?


First, I should say I like the TMACs a lot. In fact, I got the Deftraps when they came out thinking they would be a composite version of the TMAC.

But they are different in two ways. First, the pins are fewer and less aggressive. Second, while the TMACs are very much concave, the deftraps are nearly perfectly flat.

So, the TMACs keep my foot better planted in the rough stuff.

However, they can be hard to move my foot around on. The Deftraps seem (to me) to be a slightly better tradeoff in those terms. But that is really subjective. There are some rides where I'd rather have the grip of the TMACs.

The main reason I have been preferring the Deftraps lately is that due to how concave the TMACs are. The back edge is a sharper angle and it digs into the middle of my foot more on really hard mashing. The Deftrap does that less, and I have appreciated that on longer rides with hard pedaling.

If I could find stiffer shoes, I might like the TMACs better for long rides. I have been pretty disappointed that I have not found stiffer soled flat-specific shoes out there. I'd give up some trail feel to have better support under the mid foot.


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## RETROROCKS (Sep 25, 2004)

Had to reply to this thread interesting name!! (Same as mine)...lol
Ive always run flats any good flat will work!
Ive also just worn my hiking shoes or even my sneakers and NEVER had a problem!!
So dont worry about investing in a $200 pair of 510's until you feel the need.. they are not really a necessity!


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

I'm 7 months on my DMR Vaults, have them paired with PI's new X-Alp Launch shoe and couldn't be happier. I clip in on the road and gravel, but so far I am more comfortable as a new MTB to be on flats.


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## tjkm (Jun 9, 2007)

watermonkey said:


> Both? I just got in a weekend's worth of rides in Moab and Phil's world on a new set of Funn Mamba S pedals. Flats with spikes on one side, clip in on the other. Works seamlessly regardless of the side you pick. Excellent support in either mode, and great ground clearance when clipped in (as the other side of the clipless setup isn't there). The pinless middle of the flats side let spd shoes work just like my flats shoes without cleat interference. I like riding flats. I like riding clips. Getting a little old to bounce due to clips in sketchy sections, now I get to keep riding the sketchy stuff with an easier bail out option. It definitely came into play this last weekend - cleaned sections with confidence that I would have been hesitant to ride aggressively if I weren't on flats.


Ahhhh. I think you just helped my find my next pedals. I have been riding Shimano 540 SPD pedals for a really long time, and have had those occasions were I just can't clip out fast enough and end up on the ground mangled among my bike, rocks and cactus. I picked up a pair of Race Face Chester flat pedals about a month ago and while the pedals are fine for stepping off when I need to get a foot down, I just am not sold on them. I find my foot slipping a bit and wondered if there was one pedal that offered both. I did a quick glance at the Funn Mamba S and think this is the way to go.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Running both large Crank Brothers Stamp 3s and Crank Brothers Stamp 7s. Best flat pedals I have owned, nice large platform grippy but not overly grippy and cannot go wrong with either one.


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## tomboyjr (Jul 16, 2009)

RETROROCKS said:


> Had to reply to this thread interesting name!! (Same as mine)...lol
> Ive always run flats any good flat will work!
> Ive also just worn my hiking shoes or even my sneakers and NEVER had a problem!!
> So dont worry about investing in a $200 pair of 510's until you feel the need.. they are not really a necessity!


Years ago in CT I would wear warm hiking boots with cheap flats for riding in winter. Warmer weather was always clipless. I never got the feeling for flats though. Yea it was nice to be able to get off the pedals fast on ice or snow, but I struggled on technical stuff, especially climbs. That all changed when I bought some decent pedals, but the big change was using 5-10's. To me, that made all the difference in the world. Now I feel like I'm glued to the pedals.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm 53 and have flats on my eBike.


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## Crankyone (Dec 8, 2014)

Okay, I ride flats! Yep 510’s (although they are beat to shat). If I can’t find them I ride in whatever. It’s mostly about getting out the door and my ass on the bike!


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

RETROROCKS said:


> Had to reply to this thread interesting name!! (Same as mine)...lol
> Ive always run flats any good flat will work!
> Ive also just worn my hiking shoes or even my sneakers and NEVER had a problem!!
> So dont worry about investing in a $200 pair of 510's until you feel the need.. they are not really a necessity!


Mostly very true says the guy who rides all sorts of bikes in all sorts of places but......

In being the starter of a bike park and just retired as a ski area director it's been hundreds of new and returning riders I've spent time with. Teaching how much stick there is with a little twist is a game changer when people remember it.

A new twist in the twist is I chose my flats and Five Tens for just doing a 142 mi off road and short gravel segments tour and when the A group was climbing hills with freak strong wind gusts same twist kept me with pedal power and I didn't get knocked over as a few did.

For some rides I still wear my feet belts (Eggbeater w/Bontrager shoes) but in this over 50 context it's cutting pain, injuries, and often benefits beyond that. In the context of helping so many learn or return to biking that type of shoe has been really good.

Still, I'm with you on not needed to be so specialized. My wife ditched her Five Tens for her Hoka running shoes. Except for liner shorts I probably ride 900 - 1400 mi a year in what people would call street clothes. That spirited sort of crazy 142 mi ride I just did proved how much your bike engine vs gear count.

The right way to settle the pedals and shoes debates? Try it all.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

Didn't want to swap out the SPD's for Flats just yet, but wanted to try Flats

Solution was $22 USD, but will allow the use of Flats on various Bikes and allow switching between them when I wish.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

OldMike said:


> Didn't want to swap out the SPD's for Flats just yet, but wanted to try Flats
> 
> Solution was $22 USD, but will allow the use of Flats on various Bikes and allow switching between them when I wish.
> 
> View attachment 1929524


Danger zone. That would scare me big time unless you just putt putt around. First, SPDs and Eggbeaters move around so they'd be freaky to use for that alone. Next is they release. Then I think of added height.

There's just no way to really try flats if you can't pump, rail or power with confidence.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I think that's pretty cool actually but totally agree on the added height. You wouldn't get a flat pedal feel out of those things. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

OldMike said:


> Didn't want to swap out the SPD's for Flats just yet, but wanted to try Flats
> 
> Solution was $22 USD, but will allow the use of Flats on various Bikes and allow switching between them when I wish.
> 
> View attachment 1929524


I'll just add my voice to the chorus that while these are fine to use to tool around on, you are really not going to get much of an idea of what flats really have to offer.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

bitflogger said:


> Danger zone. That would scare me big time unless you just putt putt around. First, SPDs and Eggbeaters move around so they'd be freaky to use for that alone. Next is they release. Then I think of added height.
> 
> There's just no way to really try flats if you can't pump, rail or power with confidence.


You male some good points however I plan on tightening the cleat as tight as It will go. Also, these will only be for sketchy downhill sections where I want to be unclipped.
I'll report back when I try them (might be awhile ~ Amazon).


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

tjkm said:


> Ahhhh. I think you just helped my find my next pedals. I have been riding Shimano 540 SPD pedals for a really long time, and have had those occasions were I just can't clip out fast enough and end up on the ground mangled among my bike, rocks and cactus. I picked up a pair of Race Face Chester flat pedals about a month ago and while the pedals are fine for stepping off when I need to get a foot down, I just am not sold on them. I find my foot slipping a bit and wondered if there was one pedal that offered both. I did a quick glance at the Funn Mamba S and think this is the way to go.


I'd be interested to know what shoes you're using for the Chesters. I usually ride SPD's except on the few days I ride lift served. I'm 68 and recently dislocated a finger. Figured I'd go back to flats and have decided I'm going to stick with them, as I'm getting to like using them. I'm on Chesters with Five Tens and the connection seems really solid. Any shoe you could use for the SPD side of a "bi" pedal would be close to useless for the flat side (yeah, I'm sure there are exceptions). For one thing, the saddle height just wouldn't be optimum on one side or the other or the shoe wouldn't have the grip needed for the flat. Just commit! Ride one, or the other, or both, but I'd pass on the two sided pedal option for serious riding.

I've got 2 Moab trips now on the flats since my injury. A couple of times on Hymasa/Ahab, Rodeo, Navajo, Bull Run/Arth's/Great Escape and the seat height and fore/aft position I've used is different than on my clipless. Once that was dialed in, I'm not coming off the pedals, though I've started dropping the post an inch or so on super choppy tech climbs to stay connected.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

All these attempts to dip a toe in the water are akin to installing a Flexstem and Thudbuster to see if suspension is really worth it. If you half-ass it with crappy equipment, of course you’re not going to have good results. You need a decent pedal and a decent shoe to truly get the full benefit of using flats.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I was just watching "The Quiet Man " with Wayne and O'Hara. Someone asked, "would you like some water in your whiskey? No. When I drink whiskey, I drink whiskey. When I drink water, I drink water"! These words have thunder. Ride flats....or ride clipless.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

MSU Alum said:


> I was just watching "The Quiet Man " with Wayne and O'Hara. Someone asked, "would you like some water in your whiskey? No. When I drink whiskey, I drink whiskey. When I drink water, I drink water"! These words have thunder. Ride flats....or ride clipless.


Agreed, but one had to know whether they like the whiskey as much as the water. This should give me an idea.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

OldMike said:


> Agreed, but one had to know whether they like the whiskey as much as the water. This should give me an idea.


Hah...I need water, but I NEED whiskey!
I like the trajectory of this discussion.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

MSU Alum said:


> Hah...I need water, but I NEED whiskey!
> I like the trajectory of this discussion.


I have a fat pour of this next to me at the moment :









Teeling Brabazon 02 Review


Teeling Brabazon 02 Review: So why am I starting with the Teeling Brabazon 02 instead of the 01? Easy, I didin’t have access to an 01 when I was writing these up, but don’t worry, I have a review of the 01 coming soon as I was able to secure a bottle from Ireland. Ah the joys of being in love...




thewhiskeyjug.com


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

OldMike said:


> You male some good points however I plan on tightening the cleat as tight as It will go. Also, these will only be for sketchy downhill sections where I want to be unclipped.
> I'll report back when I try them (might be awhile ~ Amazon).


That's (sketchy downhill) exactly where you have a recipe for disaster. No way I'd risk injury for some part or all f*ckery cheapskate cobbled up recipe to NOT be what $50 on OneUp or Chester pedals get you.

Heels down, butt back, and you're counting on a cheap hack that can't work as well as great pedals. Chester knock offs probably cost same as your hack/mess solution.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

OldMike said:


> You male some good points however I plan on tightening the cleat as tight as It will go. Also, these will only be for sketchy downhill sections where I want to be unclipped.
> I'll report back when I try them (might be awhile ~ Amazon).


No bueno, OM. Just get yourself some good flat pedal shoes and a cheapish pair of Amazon plastic flats ( 20 bucks) .
You'll see what these guys are talking about right away.


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## MrIcky (Oct 2, 2007)

I'll pitch in my pedal reviews: I own Chesters, 1ups (both composite and aluminum) and Deity Deftraps (composite), I use 5.10 shoes. The amount of difference in the pedals is surprising. 
*The Deftraps do a significantly better job of holding the foot and you can 'scoop' your pedals for climbing and such. They have just a little concave with no axle swell. The foot is very well supported and falls into the sweet spot naturally so there's little hunting. They're comfortable on longer rides because of the foot support. It is my favorite overall of the pedals I listed. The downside is it's a relatively large blocky pedal so pedal strikes do happen more. 
*The oneups are nice and thin and for very techy trails, they are great. Your foot does not readily fall to the same position every time so theres a lot more adjusting. It grips well because the rise of the pedal falls in the arch of the foot, but that can cause hot spots. 
*Chesters they are ok. They don't grip as well as either Deftraps or Oneups but they don't do a bad job. The slightly raised axle can cause some hot spots and you will do some foot hunting to get the right spot.

I also rode clipless for many years. I switched due to knee issues 3 or 4 years ago. Composite pedals are pretty cheap so I don't mind trying some combos. Using real flat pedal shoes does make a difference.


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## tjkm (Jun 9, 2007)

MSU Alum said:


> I'd be interested to know what shoes you're using for the Chesters. I usually ride SPD's except on the few days I ride lift served. I'm 68 and recently dislocated a finger. Figured I'd go back to flats and have decided I'm going to stick with them, as I'm getting to like using them. I'm on Chesters with Five Tens and the connection seems really solid. Any shoe you could use for the SPD side of a "bi" pedal would be close to useless for the flat side (yeah, I'm sure there are exceptions). For one thing, the saddle height just wouldn't be optimum on one side or the other or the shoe wouldn't have the grip needed for the flat. Just commit! Ride one, or the other, or both, but I'd pass on the two sided pedal option for serious riding.
> 
> I've got 2 Moab trips now on the flats since my injury. A couple of times on Hymasa/Ahab, Rodeo, Navajo, Bull Run/Arth's/Great Escape and the seat height and fore/aft position I've used is different than on my clipless. Once that was dialed in, I'm not coming off the pedals, though I've started dropping the post an inch or so on super choppy tech climbs to stay connected.


MSU Alum - I have a pretty old, but hardly used pair of Specialized Tahoe shoes. My brother in law gave them to me years ago after he stopped riding. He got hit by a car on his bar bike and decided to not ride again. With that, he gave me the shoes which have sat in my garage for a few years. From what I read on the Tahoe shoes, they are MTB shoes for flat pedals and they are pretty heavy but somewhat comfortable.

I did return the Chesters and have not purchased the Funn's, so still on the fence on what my next move is. I will likely keep with my xc style shoe and Spd set up. I am sure the Chesters are just fine, I suspect my shoes are likely the problem. I can always start this experiment again.

I have ridden Navjo Rocks in Moab on my xc set up with no issues but think that is easier compared to what I have seen on videos for Ahab, etc. Thanks for your feedback.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

There seems to be some overthinking and boat missing going on here.

With a family fleet, I cycled through 5 brands of pedals that included plastic cheapies. With sticky shoes they all prove the concept. There are not THAT many differences but the thicker at spindle like OneUp are more comfy when you are more foot over pedal.

Nothing sticks like my FiveTen shoes but Vans and New Balance 1540s and 990s work too.

For general riding same home trails and loops my measurement app doesn't show a difference with shoe and pedal type. If I've had any recent eye openers it was choosing flats and FiveTens for a 142 mile off road tour over my EggBeaters and Bontrager shoes. The only thing missing was discomfort.

At this point I'm only using feet belts on my road bike for spirited rides or an occasional drop bar bike off road venture for some climbing aid. Rolling a pedal on a climb or in a rock garden is something I'll take for all the positive this old guy has found with flats and FiveTens. The link below hits things I've noticed. For some shoes I use SuperFeet.









The Best Flat Pedal Mountain Bike Shoes of 2021? 7 Tested


Looking for the best flat pedal mountain bike shoes for trail riding and bikepacking? Logan rounded up seven pairs for this year-long test...




bikepacking.com


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

tjkm said:


> MSU Alum - I have a pretty old, but hardly used pair of Specialized Tahoe shoes. My brother in law gave them to me years ago after he stopped riding. He got hit by a car on his bar bike and decided to not ride again. With that, he gave me the shoes which have sat in my garage for a few years. From what I read on the Tahoe shoes, they are MTB shoes for flat pedals and they are pretty heavy but somewhat comfortable.


My Tahoe's are a bit heavy and clipless, not flats. But you cut the cleat part out of the sole.
I found them comfortable, but got severe hot spots on both feet in rides over 2 hrs.


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## tjkm (Jun 9, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> My Tahoe's are a bit heavy and clipless, not flats. But you cut the cleat part out of the sole.
> I found them comfortable, but got severe hot spots on both feet in rides over 2 hrs.


I thought that cleat spot look like it would be removable. Good to know. Thx


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## Dung Hopper (Jun 24, 2013)

I ride Crank Bros. I switched about a year ago. I like the feeling of being clipped in but I am getting used to these.


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## yfdcap (Apr 25, 2007)

I have been clipless for close to twenty years. Just now trying to get back into flats Due to a bad knee. Crank Bros and Deity tmacs so far. Size 12 foot. Never thought it would be this much getting used to them again.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

My clipless shoes are Shimano ME7s which have a neoprene "collar" that prevents sand and dirt from getting into the shoe. I have noticed that my Five Tens aren't as good in that regard. 
I'm considering the Shimano GR7 as a replacement for the Five Tens because they have that collar. But, the great thing about the Five Tens is that if you put your foot down on a slab, climbing in Moab for example, you're not going for a ride as they have a rubber compound that grips like mad!


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

*Member has removed content due to fundamental disagreement with this site owner's views favoring expanded access for electric mountain bikes (eMtb) on multiuse singletrack in public lands.*


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Trail running gaiters work well for keeping that stuff out. It's generally not much of an issue for me on riding shoes, but for running/hiking/backpacking I use them constantly.


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## Hollis (Dec 19, 2003)

old MTBr guy checkin in ? I've been on flats since 1998. I've tried all sorts of pedals, LeggBeaters, SPD, & Wellgo MG2 pedals. I've always gone back to flats.
My current setup pedal/shoe combo:
Catalyst pedals (don't believe the Hype)
Altra Peak 4.5 shoes (yes trailrunners). 
Five/Ten shoes arent what they used to be. The Altra shoe has a "RockGuard" within the sole, so it seems to be firm enought for now. The most recent pair of Five/Ten's are complete garbage, the sole is hard/stiff & nothing like the pair I've had for over 10 years.










My advice: buy a thin CNC'd flat pedal with good bearings & a cheap pair of skateboard shoes. If you like the set up, upgrade as time & money permit.

The one below are so old I can't even see the brand name. I just know I spent $45.00. Better control than the Catalyst (I keep telling the Ladies, bigger isn't always better).
Catalyst pedals have made my knee hurt more, not less as advertised. I'm still futzing with the saddle to see if I can get more comfortable with the Catalyst, but I'm ready to move on.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

My new GIRO 'Riddance MID' MTB shoe. The grip is maximum. I have to re adjust my foot position a lot because the soft Vibram soles. It does have a stiff sole which I like for more power and support on landings. Plus kicking my feet through rock gardens is no problem. Kind of like a boot, but pedals great and stays cool.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

I went into a berm a week ago pretty hot, back wheel locked up and I slid out. I was about to dab but my shoes stuck to the pins and I crashed. I slid out mostly/washed out.
I was pretty leaned over I'm sure after the rear end went slip sliding away and may have been a bit tough to get the foot off the pedal or something. My shoes are farily worn, perhaps the pins were hooked on a gouged out part of sole.

anything can happen on any given day. We can blame what we want but most of the time we will never know the true reason.
I'm blaming dry conditions for the crash.
We can blame a rock, or pedals, or shoes....regardless of what -a crash happened. With that said, I've been riding on dry conditions on this same spot with the same shoes and pedals for a long time and never crashed/slid out. So what is to blame this time? Maybe my reaction was bleh.
Oh, and I was on the same bike too.

I've been testing out different POV cameras and have hit the loop of this trail 3 times in a ride on various occasions for the past few weeks, on 2 different bikes (same pedal brand if it matters) and never had an issue in this corner, and ended up sliding every time (dry conditions). I keep my front up and didn't break the borrowed camera. 

Because of that, I'm not planning to get a different pedal though.


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## leejohnh22 (Mar 23, 2020)

kapusta said:


> Diety Deftrap are very large and flat, and are my favorite pedal so far. I like better than the $150 TMACs, the Kona Wha Wha 2s, and the Chromag Synths I've got.


Can you expand on why you prefer the Deftraps to the TMACs? Is it just a matter of preferring composites over metal or something else?

EDIT: saw your response


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

I’m switching to flats after 20 years of SPD then Crank B. pedals. I just bought a set of Stamp 1 “summer edition” pedals because they were available, I trust CB, they are light and they were cheap for an intro flat pedal and the white color offsets too much black on my bike. My reason for the flat switch was a wreck 2.5 weeks ago that left me with a broken hip. It will be 3 months before I’m on the trails again but my experience getting my foot out of the pedal after the wreck changed my appetite for clipless. I was able to twist my right leg out but with the top of my femur separated from the ball so the left leg wouldn’t twist. I had to hold the bike up with my hands and take my right foot and push my heel around to release it from the pedal. The pain was horrific. The clipless didn’t cause the crash, that was me going too fast into a corner with bad vision from dust and at the last second seeing my normal line blocked by rocks, hit the brakes and washed out the front and landed on the rocks with my hip. So anyway I’m going to flats. When it is time to get into some trails I’ll probably get a pair of 5 10 shoes too.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

ALL of my bad crashes have been less than 4 mph, in SPD’s where I couldn’t get out. Using multi release cleats at that. Higher speeds were no problem getting out. Just the low speed. After knee surgery I’m not using clipless again.

The only thing i have against flats is the floating foot position. I’m constantly adjusting where my feet are. I do miss the precise, locked in positioning of clipless, but that’s about it.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

I have two problems I’m trying to figure out.

i have a problem with my right foot creeping out to the edge of the pedal. The right leg is the strong leg, so it should be easier to keep it planted. It just slides out board as I ride.

Second issue is keeping the left foot planted, period. It’s the weak leg from knee surgery. It just randomly flies off. Smooth terrain, rough terrain doesn’t matter. I also peddle squares but that’s my (super)weak leg muscles. Ideas?


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## MrIcky (Oct 2, 2007)

BujiBiker said:


> I have two problems I'm trying to figure out.
> 
> i have a problem with my right foot creeping out to the edge of the pedal. The right leg is the strong leg, so it should be easier to keep it planted. It just slides out board as I ride.
> 
> Second issue is keeping the left foot planted, period. It's the weak leg from knee surgery. It just randomly flies off. Smooth terrain, rough terrain doesn't matter. I also peddle squares but that's my (super)weak leg muscles. Ideas?


Do these things happen when you're sitting or standing or both? Leg strength shouldn't have too much to do with feet bouncing off. What kind of shoes are you wearing (flat pedal specific biking shoes or 'other'). If you're feet are bouncing off when you're standing up going over things, then drop your heels a little and push your weight through the balls of your feet forward. If your feet are bouncing off while you're sitting going over trail features, try standing or at least dropping your seat. If your feet are coming off when pedaling, try: better shoes, dipping your toes and pushing back on the upstroke then slightly rotating to heels down on the down stroke. It should kind of feel like you're trying to scrape poop off your shoes.

That's all I got, good luck.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

5.10 TrailCross shoes with Deity Composite V2 pedals. Seated or standing. I cannot as of yet pedal standing up. I notice it starting as I’m pedaling seated. When I stand up the right foot is like 1/2” over the outside edge of the pedal. I’m only a 7.5 shoe size, so not even an average shoe size, let alone big. It throws off my balance when I stand up to absorb bumps etc.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I have them on my ht now, one up I think, and trying to get used to them.
Had a few close slipping off calls but I also just wear tennis shoes and the sole is pretty hard.
One thing is for sure clip less was aiding my riding style.
The first time I tried a little jump I almost neutered myself.
Lot to learn.🍻


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

acer66 said:


> I have them on my ht now, one up I think, and trying to get used to them.
> Had a few close slipping off calls but I also just wear tennis shoes and the sole is pretty hard.
> One thing is for sure clip less was aiding my riding style.
> The first time I tried a little jump I almost neutered myself.
> Lot to learn.🍻


I have the same 'one up' pedals on my HT and they grip really solid with a real flat pedal mtb shoe. I was slipping around wearing indoor basketball shoes. The dedicated mtb shoes are night and day grippy.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

BTW, Attention big footed riders!
I'm looking to give away my size 14.5 US 'Bontrager' Flatline mtb shoes. They are more like a size 12.5 -13 US. I wore these twice and got blisters because they too small. The second time I wore them it was muddy after a rain, that's why there is some dirt residue left on them. I cleaned them pretty good. You pay the shipping.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

How wide are they?
I sometimes wear a 13 even with very wide shoes I go down to 10.5.

Thankyou.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I would say narrow or standard width. Not wide. I wear a 14 regular. My new GIRO 'Riddance MID' size 14.5 US are a true 14.5. 
Here is my new Giro's next to the Bontrager. They are both supposedly 14.5 US.....


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I would say narrow or standard width. Not wide. I wear a 14 regular. My new GIRO 'Riddance MID' size 14.5 US are a true 14.5.
> Here is my new Giro's next to the Bontrager. They are both supposedly 14.5 US.....


Looks like too big for me but thank you for doing this.👍


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## byknphil (Oct 10, 2009)

Started with flats back in the 70s and have never clipped in. Five Tens and a good set of flats always. Like polymer pedals just for the fact the slide off rocks more when a pedal strike occur. The group of roughly 10 guys I ride with were all clipped up until a couple years ago and now they all run flats.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I got some close out shimano shoes locally and boy do they grip better.
I mean I knew they would but I was surprised by how much, very confided inspiring.


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## Pest (Nov 19, 2020)

byknphil said:


> Started with flats back in the 70s and have never clipped in. Five Tens and a good set of flats always. Like polymer pedals just for the fact the slide off rocks more when a pedal strike occur. The group of roughly 10 guys I ride with were all clipped up until a couple years ago and now they all run flats.


Same. Never used clipped pedals in my life. Flats always&#8230; 45+ years of riding, I don't feel like I missed anything.


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## MdJumpnkc (Apr 2, 2021)

58 young, started with flats in my twenty to thirty’s then to clipless in my 40’s, then again to Chesters (Raceface) comfy with Ride Concepts shoes (small order 2 sizes up), then to 5 10 easy riders( one size & a 1/2 up) great, but did not “feel” right. Kept on getting pain in my ankles.. couldn’t walk without pain for about 3hours after riding. Not doing jumps, all on trails with a full suspension bike , hard tail, and a gravel bike. I switched back to clipless to lessen the pain. Great now and not going back.


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## bigjp (Nov 7, 2008)

I go back and forth between clips and flats. I actually prefer flats but can climb a little better with clipless. I feel like my fundamentals deteriorate over time when using clipless so I will typically switch over for a ride where I need to keep up with a younger rider, and then ride them for a month or so and switch back. Flats are Gamut Podium with 5-10 shoes clips are xtr trails, on my road bike I ride 100% clipless on dura ace pedals.


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## bigdamo (Jun 11, 2004)

kapusta said:


> First, I should say I like the TMACs a lot. In fact, I got the Deftraps when they came out thinking they would be a composite version of the TMAC.
> 
> But they are different in two ways. First, the pins are fewer and less aggressive. Second, while the TMACs are very much concave, the deftraps are nearly perfectly flat.
> 
> ...


Might want to check out Giant line MTB shoes. I just got some and stiff enough but still comfortable to walk in.


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## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

For the trails I ride when I'm not working, I prefer flats after riding clips for a decade. With good shoes with a softer and tacky rubber compound and good pedals, I never find a need to go back to clips. This goes for both my trail and DH bikes.


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## bigdamo (Jun 11, 2004)

I use both flat and clips. I prefer clips I'll use flats if I'm shuttling and the descent is technical. If I have climbing involved clips easily wins. On the flow trail with jumps clips I like how with clips I can get a little bit more pop off the jumps being attached to the bike with clips. I rode MX and cross country/enduro for many years on a moto so i thought I would of liked the flats on a MTB but hey not that much. I do have multi release clips and I have never had a problem on the many times I've bailed using clips.

I don't like the flexy soft very little grip on the hike a bike sections/walk and scope out a line times on flat soles. Don't like the lace system much prefer velcro ratchet closure system they don't come loose or worse undone while riding plus I can get a better fitting with velcro ratchet closure . 

Plus not overly impressed chewing out soles on the tacky expensive flat soles within a year. 

I sure don't like the shin mash you can get with flats.

But hey each to there own.


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## RhB HJ (May 20, 2020)

Get a new bike, add half toe clips. For me they're that happy compromise.


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## navymtbr (Feb 2, 2004)

jcd46 said:


> 510s and RaceFace Chesters, best combo for this old dude
> 
> Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


I 59yo went from clipless to the 510s and Chesters a couple of years ago. Really glad I did, great traction and easier for me to bail out if needed. As others alluded to, try some shin guards during the process until you get use to them. Any cheap soccer shin guard will do and save you from pedal rash.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

navymtbr said:


> I 59yo went from clipless to the 510s and Chesters a couple of years ago. Really glad I did, great traction and easier for me to bail out if needed. As others alluded to, try some shin guards during the process until you get use to them. Any cheap soccer shin guard will do and save you from pedal rash.


My bike says you have shins for me to sharpen my pedal pins on!😁


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I wear my socks high and my knee pads low...


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## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

I was clipped in for over twenty years. I decided to commit to flats about four years ago; just because. Actually, I did it so I would be forced to use proper body, feet and hands to move the bike around in the air. It was a learning curve for sure. I had some bad habits that were the result of being clipped in. I promised myself I would not swap back for an entire season. It was not fun at first but then I fell in love with my new found foot freedom. I absolutely love them. I am never wanting to be clipped in. Good pedals paired with 5.10s is akin to being clipped but with the freedom to move the foot at your will. I would always unclip in a crash, but on tough rock gardens it was always a delicate balancing act between pulling the foot or sacrificing bones and skin to push through an area that was super sketchy where you just were not going to have the time to pull out. Flats, never in issue.


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## DeeCount (Oct 3, 2020)

Yes, the downside to a good set of flats 😜








This was just after installing a new pair of Race Face Atlas pedals. Not a crash, just the pedal barely grazing my 50yo shin taking the bike out of the stand.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I wear longer socks now, and wear my knee pads low just to avoid that.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

kapusta said:


> The issue I am running into with flats is that I have not found a pair or dedicated flat pedal shoes with wide, grippy soles that are as stiff under the middle of my foot as I want for longer rides that involve hard pedaling/mashing. Tried on a few different models of 5-10s and Ride Concepts and the Hellions I got were among the stiffest under the arch of my foot, but I am finding they are still too soft. My hiking shoes give much better support (I believe there is a rigid shank in the middle and rear of the sole), but the sole design is just not as good as flat pedal shoes.
> 
> I had read that the RC Livewire was stiffer than the Hellion, and considered trying that, but when I talked to a guy from RC, he was adamant that the construction or the lowers on the two was identical and there would be no difference in the support I was looking for.


You probably have the pedal axle under the ball of your foot.

Try it under the arch.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

DeeCount said:


> Yes, the downside to a good set of flats 😜
> View attachment 1949743
> 
> This was just after installing a new pair of Race Face Atlas pedals. Not a crash, just the pedal barely grazing my 50yo shin taking the bike out of the stand.


Straitline Defacto will one up that game! 😁


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> You probably have the pedal axle under the ball of your foot.
> 
> Try it under the arch.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


You've made a bad assumption.


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

Nothing but. Cheap ones too, composites. No complaints. 5.10 Freeriders are money. I've found that having the pedal axle under mid foot to be a game changer when it comes to dropping heels which is another game changer IMO.

Foot out flat out. Feels good man.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

rod9301 said:


> You probably have the pedal axle under the ball of your foot. _Which is where it belongs_
> 
> Try it under the arch _and you will see why it belongs under the ball of your foot._
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Actually, under the arch the foot is s lot more stable.
Even you do squats you're not on the back of the foot.

There's s fair amount of research for pedal placement in downhill that support this.

It's like in skiing, the weight should be under the arch, more precisely under the tibia. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> Actually, under the arch the foot is s lot more stable.
> Even you do squats you're not on the back of the foot.
> 
> There's s fair amount of research for pedal placement in downhill that support this.
> ...


If that was in response to me.... that's not the assumption I was talking about.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

rod9301 said:


> Actually, under the arch the foot is s lot more stable.
> Even you do squats you're not on the back of the foot.
> 
> There's s fair amount of research for pedal placement in downhill that support this.
> ...


There's a reason that roadie pedals are mounted under the ball of the foot and not under the arch.

Maybe if you are making a pure gravity run with zero pedaling you might put the axle a bit more rearward, but if you are pedaling, efficiency is maxed with the pedal under the arch.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Why is that? 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

rod9301 said:


> Why is that?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Why is WHAT?

You need to quote who you are responding to.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Positioning your feet to the spot that feels right isn't as easy as you'd expect when first going to flats. My first shoes going from clipless to flats where my Keen hiking shoes. They actually worked fine for a couple of years. Then I noticed a couple of guys with actual riding shoes and asked about them. I bought some Bontragger flats and they were stiffer and grippy but my feet were going numb and they were too tight. I bought some basketball shoes that had stiffer than usual soles and fit way better. They worked for a while but my feet would slip off a lot and I get the shin whack from my pedals. I found a pair of Giro Riddance in a size 14 US that fit perfect. The Vibram soles are super grippy and the shoe feels a little more like a protective boot. I can kick rocks and not feel it but still light and pedal great.
The thing I liked about the basketball shoes was, it was easier to shift my feet into the right spot on the pedals. With my current Giro's, I have to constantly lift and reposition my feet until they are really close to where I want them 🙃. After 5 or 6 months of wearing them, I think less about the repositioning than I did when I first got them. They do stick great while climbing and never slip...


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

rod9301 said:


> Why is that?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


ankle movement is maximized.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

spaightlabs said:


> ankle movement is maximized.


And why do you need ankle movement?
And snuggly
Actually you have ankle movement even if you're placed above the pedal shaft

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

rod9301 said:


> And why do you need ankle movement?
> And snuggly
> Actually you have ankle movement even if you're placed above the pedal shaft
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I decided to consult the Oracle/see what the man had to say. Dropping science as usual.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I just finished a ride and on a max steep climb my right foot shifted forward on the pedal so I was pushing with my heel. I couldn't disengage my foot because I couldn't afford to miss any part of my power-stroke. Just kept pushing with my heel to the top. You have to make adjustments sometimes....


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## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

rod9301 said:


> And why do you need ankle movement?
> And snuggly
> Actually you have ankle movement even if you're placed above the pedal shaft
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I think the comment about ankle movement has validity. When going downhill through rooty or very rocky trails, I drop my heels (flex my ankles) so I cannot pop off my pedals. Having the the axle of the pedal forward of center of foot I believe helps with that. I never really thought about it, but now I will have to try moving the foot around to see if it makes a difference.

I will also drop my heel on long climbs because it engages a slightly different part of my quads, effectively lengthening my leg on the bottom of the pedal stroke.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

peterk123 said:


> I think the comment about ankle movement has validity. When going downhill through rooty or very rocky trails, I drop my heels (flex my ankles) so I cannot pop off my pedals. Having the the axle of the pedal forward of center of foot I believe helps with that. I never really thought about it, but now I will have to try moving the foot around to see if it makes a difference.
> 
> I will also drop my heel on long climbs because it engages a slightly different part of my quads, effectively lengthening my leg on the bottom of the pedal stroke.


The ankle flexion it's governed by the amount of dorsiflexion you have. It's the same whether you are on the balls of your feet it over the arch

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Between the likes of Sam Hill having to walk his flat-pedal-equipped-bike up an easy grade (video in #656), worries about gouging shins, worrying about foot position and ankle flex on challenging terrain so you can stay on the pedal, and having to frequently readjust the foot on the pedal to get it in the right place … it’s a wonder anyone rides anywhere other than to the liquor store using flats. I’d crash once or twice a year when using Bebop clipless because I’d get stuck in them, but since moving to XTR Spd’s 3 years ago I haven’t had one crash I can attribute to getting stuck in the pedals when I wanted out, nor a single crash by coming out of them when I didn’t want to. Despite the testimonials in this thread, I haven’t heard one persuasive argument in favor of flats that sings to me. I’m expect some style of riding (other than beer runs) might make flats the right pedal choice, but it’s not one I’m doing now or thinking of doing anytime soon.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ptor said:


> Between the likes of Sam Hill having to walk his flat-pedal-equipped-bike up an easy grade (video in #656), worries about gouging shins, worrying about foot position and ankle flex on challenging terrain so you can stay on the pedal, and having to frequently readjust the foot on the pedal to get it in the right place &#8230; it's a wonder anyone rides anywhere other than to the liquor store using flats. I'd crash once or twice a year when using Bebop clipless because I'd get stuck in them, but since moving to XTR Spd's 3 years ago I haven't had one crash I can attribute to getting stuck in the pedals when I wanted out, nor a single crash by coming out of them when I didn't want to. Despite the testimonials in this thread, I haven't heard one persuasive argument in favor of flats that sings to me. I'm expect some style of riding (other than beer runs) might make flats the right pedal choice, but it's not one I'm doing now or thinking of doing anytime soon.


You can be the first guy to dismount and push your bike up the hill, causing everyone else behind you to have to do the same.

That's a good thing, right? Right???

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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Ptor said:


> Between the likes of Sam Hill having to walk his flat-pedal-equipped-bike up an easy grade (video in #656), worries about gouging shins, worrying about foot position and ankle flex on challenging terrain so you can stay on the pedal, and having to frequently readjust the foot on the pedal to get it in the right place &#8230; it's a wonder anyone rides anywhere other than to the liquor store using flats...


Quite a diatribe, makes you wonder how downhill riders manage to stay attached to their bikes, or all those kids riding BMX and trials.

There's a thing called competence...


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

A guy I know and I had been talking about riding together for a while. The first time we rode together, he rode clipless and rode fast. All blue trails, and he kicked my butt on some of the hills. The next time we rode together, I took the lead and we rode some of the black trails I usually ride. I waited for him on all the steep downhills and tight switchbacks. He said he's not used to riding those trails and some of the loose rocky stuff was pretty scary clipped in. I said I can imagine, because I used to ride clipless pedals and never felt confident on the loose steeps either. He just switched to flats and is riding the steeps now. I'll trade efficient climbs for fun drops any day....and I'll never do a little rear wheel clipped-in hop on a break over. ever. Wait...is that cool?


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## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

rod9301 said:


> The ankle flexion it's governed by the amount of dorsiflexion you have. It's the same whether you are on the balls of your feet it over the arch
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Well if that is the case then why not ride with your heels on the axle of the pedal?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Ptor said:


> Between the likes of Sam Hill having to walk his flat-pedal-equipped-bike up an easy grade (video in #656),


You're saying he could pedal a DH bike uphill if he were clipped in?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

34 pages on flat pedals, wow!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> 34 pages on flat pedals, wow!


They're just getting going!


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

Define old guy


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jay_paradox said:


> Define old guy


Over 40.


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Over 40.


I'm 42 and apparently old 










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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I actually started with the real flats and Vans.


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## Buster Bluth (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm 97% flat pedals and 3% clipless. In general I prefer flat pedals for almost all forms of riding I do. There was a couple years I preferred clipless but some bizarre crashes and close calls made me decide that for anything remotely technical (or high consequence) I much prefer a pair of five tens and some chromag scarab pedals.


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## Buster Bluth (Sep 11, 2008)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I actually started with the real flats and Vans.
> View attachment 1950193


Nothing to scowl about, young man!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Buster Bluth said:


> Nothing to scowl about, young man!


I think I was finished with all my races, and it was hot out there.. The year was 1974. The location Robinson Ranch (Escape Country Motorcycle Park / BMX racing) aka Rancho Santa Margarita, Ca, USA.


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

Buster Bluth said:


> I'm 97% flat pedals and 3% clipless. In general I prefer flat pedals for almost all forms of riding I do. There was a couple years I preferred clipless but some bizarre crashes and close calls made me decide that for anything remotely technical (or high consequence) I much prefer a pair of five tens and some chromag scarab pedals.


Yeah I’ve definitely had a few falls where I can’t imagine how bad it would’ve been if I was clipped in. But then I also ask myself is there a possibility I wouldn’t of fallen at all if I was clipped in. We’ll never know! All I know is that I want to go for a bike ride with my kids I’d rather just throw on my sneakers so that’s why I went back to flats.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

jay_paradox said:


> Yeah I’ve definitely had a few falls where I can’t imagine how bad it would’ve been if I was clipped in. But then I also ask myself is there a possibility I wouldn’t of fallen at all if I was clipped in. We’ll never know! All I know is that I want to go for a bike ride with my kids I’d rather just throw on my sneakers so that’s why I went back to flats.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did a 'intermediate/advanced' skills camp this weekend and a few people that were clipped in had either 1mph crashes or full on wipeouts. The slow speed crashes were obviously because they were clipped in, they couldn't put their foot down. That might not be to blame for the wipeouts but nobody on flats hit the dirt.


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

PTCbiker said:


> I did a 'intermediate/advanced' skills camp this weekend and a few people that were clipped in had either 1mph crashes or full on wipeouts. The slow speed crashes were obviously because they were clipped in, they couldn't put their foot down. That might not be to blame for the wipeouts but nobody on flats hit the dirt.


I’m very comfortable clipped in...rode that way most of my life. I actually had to relearn riding with flats. Especially with getting air because you have to be smoother. Otherwise your feet can float off the pedals. What I don’t like the idea of is going over the handlebars clipped in. At least with flats there’s a chance I can pull off a less painful crash.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> 34 pages on flat pedals, wow!


If you can get 2 pages on the rip row, the flat pedal thread should be 200’pages. 🤣


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

jay_paradox said:


> I’m 42 and apparently old
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the 50 plus forum.
Get. Out.


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## peterk123 (Oct 10, 2005)

spaightlabs said:


> This is the 50 plus forum.
> Get. Out.


 Okay, that right there is pretty funny!


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

I like how with flats and the dropper down it’s real easy to ditch the bike/hop off the back while still holding on to the grips. I learned trying to learn how to wheelie


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

spaightlabs said:


> This is the 50 plus forum.
> Get. Out.













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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

spaightlabs said:


> This is the 50 plus forum.
> Get. Out.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

Don’t give me any of that ‘I identify as 50 plus’ crap. Damn kids.


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## Desert Ryder (Aug 27, 2021)

I've ridden pedals with MTB Specialized clips for years. Getting back into riding and I just swapped the SPD pedals to flats.

Of course, today I found a nearly new set of Giro Chamber II's with SPD clips.

I may try the clip ins when the trail/road is flat.


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## Desert Ryder (Aug 27, 2021)

And now I've found a pair of Specialized 2FO Flats 2.0 shoes for the flat pedals.


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

I’m just getting back on track now after breaking my hip on May 13th. I was on clipless at the time I crashed and burned. That prompted the switch to flats. Going up hill isn’t bad but going down can feel a little too free but I think I’ll adjust to it. I love the ability to put a foot down on tight corners or abandon the bike if I need too. I’m using 5 10 Freerider Pro shoes on Raceface Atlas pedals. They almost stick like clipless at times. If I point my toe I can get a little pull up on the cranks but I have also rolled a pedal under my foot doing that too. Dropping my heels when pointed down is newer to me and I feel like I have better control of the bike that way over obstacles. I’m not back to the place I was before wrecking with obstacles and jumps and might not ever be, it’s a mental block, but flats do help with overcoming my fears.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

just put some 12mm (10mm is stock) set screw on my stamps 11 made a huge difference in grip, especially noticed going through root gardens


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Zguitar71 said:


> I’m just getting back on track now after breaking my hip on May 13th. I was on clipless at the time I crashed and burned. That prompted the switch to flats. Going up hill isn’t bad but going down can feel a little too free but I think I’ll adjust to it. I love the ability to put a foot down on tight corners or abandon the bike if I need too. I’m using 5 10 Freerider Pro shoes on Raceface Atlas pedals. They almost stick like clipless at times. If I point my toe I can get a little pull up on the cranks but I have also rolled a pedal under my foot doing that too. Dropping my heels when pointed down is newer to me and I feel like I have better control of the bike that way over obstacles. I’m not back to the place I was before wrecking with obstacles and jumps and might not ever be, it’s a mental block, but flats do help with overcoming my fears.


Learning the usage of platforms will come with time and experience. There are too many ways to do it to say this is how do do x. You need to learn the pedals and what works for you since that will almost assuredly differ from what works for the next rider. Keep at it and practice! You can do everything on a platform pedal that can be done by lag bolting your foot to an SPD and balance check and bail if it goes to hell in a handbag, unlike an SPD.


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## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

I missed this thread. I just posted a new one (i think in "components") about anyone switching back to clipless from flats.


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## Skispiggy (12 mo ago)

I started with cages, and soon went to flats. I saw a guy doing jumps with flats and thought, "how the hell do you stay connected to the pedals?" Obviously, you just get used to it.
Most of my mates are on flats now as well. They all started with clip less. 
I'm a pretty full on rider. My riding style is the same as when i started out at 32 years of age. So when things go wrong, I do not want to be attached to the bike. I want to be clear of it.

Efficiency going up the hill has never bothered me. When people have said," you need clip less. So much more power going up the hills.." I've never cared. MTB for me is for the fun. And fun for me is challenging riding. Things will go wrong. And when they do, my safety is by far the most important thing.


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## Dan Zulu (Jul 5, 2008)

I use them in the snow on my fat bike. I am happy to switch back to clipless every spring.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Skispiggy said:


> I started with cages, and soon went to flats. I saw a guy doing jumps with flats and thought, "how the hell do you stay connected to the pedals?" Obviously, you just get used to it.
> Most of my mates are on flats now as well. They all started with clip less.
> I'm a pretty full on rider. My riding style is the same as when i started out at 32 years of age. So when things go wrong, I do not want to be attached to the bike. I want to be clear of it.
> 
> Efficiency going up the hill has never bothered me. When people have said," you need clip less. So much more power going up the hills.." I've never cared. MTB for me is for the fun. And fun for me is challenging riding. Things will go wrong. And when they do, my safety is by far the most important thing.


I find it laughable when people try to tell such tales. It does require learning the fine art of platform use. I can make power just fine without SPD.
Second paragraph is also applicable! Couldn't care less about Strava and KOM's. 

Have a look Trashzen for some information that may lend to many aspects of the ride.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Skispiggy said:


> ....Efficiency going up the hill has never bothered me. When people have said," you need clip less. So much more power going up the hills.." ...


My opinion is that there are very few people capable of exerting a significant output on the upstroke for more than a few seconds. If you watch their leg muscles as they go uphill most are just letting the pedal lift their foot.

It's something you have to train hard to do,e.g. professional or high ranking amateur rider, and it's definitely worth it for the small % advantage in that case.
However there's a reason BMX and Downhill riders don't bolt themselves to their bikes...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Velobike said:


> However there's a reason BMX and Downhill riders don't bolt themselves to their bikes...


Most high level DH racers use clipless. The one notable exception is Sam Hill, whose name always comes up in pedal conversations because he’s the _only_ guy who’s made it to the top using flats.

There’s apparently some controversy in bmx because their governing body made a rule about racers under a certain age being forbidden from using clipless. I don’t recall the details. Paging @slapheadmofo for the specifics.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Nat said:


> Most high level DH racers use clipless. The one notable exception is Sam Hill, whose name always comes up in pedal conversations because he’s the _only_ guy who’s made it to the top using flats.
> 
> There’s apparently some controversy in bmx because their governing body made a rule about racers under a certain age being forbidden from using clipless. I don’t recall the details. Paging @slapheadmofo for the specifics.


Oh Gawd! I remember the thread, bitching about the SPD use in BMX.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

BansheeRune said:


> Oh Gawd! I remember the thread, bitching about the SPD use in BMX.


I don’t remember the details.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Velobike said:


> My opinion is that there are very few people capable of exerting a significant output on the upstroke for more than a few seconds. If you watch their leg muscles as they go uphill* most are just letting the pedal lift their foot*.
> 
> It's something you have to train hard to do,e.g. professional or high ranking amateur rider, and it's definitely worth it for the small % advantage in that case.
> However there's a reason BMX and Downhill riders don't bolt themselves to their bikes...


I have to disagree with the bold emphasis above. 
For one, if you are letting the pedal lift your foot, you are losing some of the energy the other foot is exerting on the downstroke. 
Like it or not, clipless pedals are a distinct advantage when jamming. 
Toe clips and "clipless" both engage the foot's inertia on the upstroke, and even though most of your effort is in jamming down with the drive foot, that wee bit of effort to bring the foot back up on the back stroke imparts energy to the pedal and crank arm.
Not the advantage of 500 watts, but not insignificant either.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Nat said:


> I don’t remember the details.


It was centered around young riders and SPD. There were too many maladjusted setups leaving them stuck to their bike after eating track. UCI made the choice of ban for certain ranks and ages in BMX.

Bicycle Retailer


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

BansheeRune said:


> It was centered around young riders and SPD. There were too many maladjusted setups leaving them stuck to their bike after eating track. UCI made the choice of ban for certain ranks and ages in BMX.
> 
> Bicycle Retailer


A ha!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

mudflap said:


> I have to disagree with the bold emphasis above.
> For one, if you are letting the pedal lift your foot, you are losing some of the energy the other foot is exerting on the downstroke.
> Like it or not, clipless pedals are a distinct advantage when jamming.
> Toe clips and "clipless" both engage the foot's inertia on the upstroke, and even though most of your effort is in jamming down with the drive foot, that wee bit of effort to bring the foot back up on the back stroke imparts energy to the pedal and crank arm.
> Not the advantage of 500 watts, but not insignificant either.


I know the theory, but I also watch what muscles people are using in races. Very few other than the small top percentile are engaging those muscles.

What works for the superfit athletes who train very specifically, does not necessarily work for the rest of us.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

mudflap said:


> I have to disagree with the bold emphasis above.
> For one, if you are letting the pedal lift your foot, you are losing some of the energy the other foot is exerting on the downstroke.
> Like it or not, clipless pedals are a distinct advantage when jamming.
> Toe clips and "clipless" both engage the foot's inertia on the upstroke, and even though most of your effort is in jamming down with the drive foot,* that wee bit of effort to bring the foot back up on the back stroke imparts energy to the pedal and crank arm.*
> Not the advantage of 500 watts, but not insignificant either.


Yes, but you don't need to be clipped in to make use up that leg lifting energy unless you are lifting your leg enough to actually pull on the pedal. Just unweighting the pedal (with your foot still on it) increased the power net being delivered. If you are pulling hard enough that you would actually lift your foot off the pedal... then yes, clipless can make use of that power. But in reality, we do this a lot less than most people think. It is really only during brief high energy bursts that most people actually pull up on the pedal.

If you are racing or just want to squeeze out every last second, then the extra power delivery during these brief bursts makes a difference. Otherwise, not so much.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

Heres a fun story, against clips I guess. We brought a new rider into the circle, a roadie who uses clips and does so on mtb. He’s very good on climbs but that’s because of the motor and not the clips. Two buddies swapped over to clips after he convinced them, my argument against was the 1mph falls I used to have. Which is why I’m sticking with flats.

Sure enough my buddy couldn’t unclip after a strenuous climb, fell over once stopped and deeply scratched the stancions on his fork. He needs to send the fork back to Fox and his bike is down in the meantime.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

You guys may be surprised by the results in this video,


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Velobike said:


> I know the theory, but I also watch what muscles people are using in races. Very few other than the small top percentile are engaging those muscles.
> 
> What works for the superfit athletes who train very specifically, does not necessarily work for the rest of us.


I’m dubious that you can discern specific muscle contractions in a passing racers with your naked eye.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

One huge problem in the discussion of clipless vs flats is that people confuse power output with efficiency.

Clearly, clipless CAN allow more power to be delivered due to the ability to pull up on the pedal (how much this actually happens is debatable... I would argue it is far less often than most people think).

But efficiency is a different measure. Efficiency is a measure of how much of the energy you are exerting goes where you want it to go (into the drivetrain). Just becuase you can deliver more maximum power to the drivetrain dues not mean it is more efficient. And AFAIK, nobody has shown that clipless is any more or less efficient than flats.


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

I switched to flats about 6 months ago. My experience with climbing between the two took some time to work out. In the beginning I was better on the clipless mainly because I could keep my feet on the pedals without trying. On occasion I would pull up in the pedals but usually if I pull up and pedal down I would expend my energy way too soon and on long climbs would have to stop and recuperate. When I started on flats I found I would get worn out much like when I pulled up on the clipless but this time it was extended effort used to keep my feet on the pedals when on very technical terrain. In the beginning I was on cheaper flats that were slightly convex. I now have a pair of RF Atlas pedals that are concave and very grippy. Those pedals in combo with adjusting my approach to riding flats vs clipless I have found that my ability to climb is equal to the clipless. In some situations I am better on the flats because I have more confidence not being attached to the bike. Previously there were things I just would not do clipped in that now I feel comfortable with. I had the classic stall and flop problem with the clipless. Now I can put a foot down. In the end I find riding more fun because I can relax my brain and not worry about falling over.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Nat said:


> I’m dubious that you can discern specific muscle contractions in a passing racers with your naked eye.


I'm on my bike right behind them. The really fast guys' legs look different when they're working hard to us also rans. I've assumed that's because they are pulling up consistently (could be wrong).
There's been several studies over the years that back up what I've said, i.e. that very few ordinary riders are able to produce significant power for any length of time on the upstroke.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Velobike said:


> I'm on my bike right behind them.


LOL


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Nat said:


> LOL


I thought everyone checked out how the opposition was working in a race.
For your further amusement, I also check out things like how straight their derailleur is hanging, what ratio they're in, how much their bike's rear end flexes (if at all) when they put down power, their suspension reaction, and if they're out of the saddle.

But back to the point, the ability to exert further power during a race.
There was a simple test to see how strong a person's legs were in the pull up stroke. Strap on a set of gravity boots and do some continuous reverse squats. It's not an exact comparison, but I've seen very few people who can do a continuous set for very long.

These days a better test would be with a power meter. I'm not familiar with them, but is there any way of measuring the pull up force on the pedal?


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

Has this debate been settled yet? In my opinion these are clearly the best.











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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Velobike said:


> I thought everyone checked out how the opposition was working in a race.
> For your further amusement, I also check out things like how straight their derailleur is hanging, what ratio they're in, how much their bike's rear end flexes (if at all) when they put down power, their suspension reaction, and if they're out of the saddle.


Hell, most riders don't even realize I'm on a single speed.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

If I rode an XC bike and wanted to race and climb... I would switch back. But I downhill mostly and climb fine with flats. I had to bail off my bike today on a steep rocky loose downhill single track. Boulders and drops. I like to have the bail option.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Tall BMX'r said:


> If I rode an XC bike and wanted to race and climb... I would switch back. But I downhill mostly and climb fine with flats. I had to bail off my bike today on a steep rocky loose downhill single track. Boulders and drops. I like to have the bail option.


And your bike called you names and stuff!


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

mike.miller151 said:


> After many years of clipless (and even true clips from 1984) anyone riding flats? What do you run? I am going to try converting during the racing off season... My 16 yo son rides flats and can do everything I can (and better). I have read enough to see benefits, so I'm considering the Catalyst or ONe up... I know it's a commitment to shoes too? Suggestions, experiences or wisdom?


flats are ok and cheap shoes is more.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

BansheeRune said:


> And your bike called you names and stuff!


I don't mind paint chips on my bike. Bikes in perfect condition have no stories..


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I don't mind paint chips on my bike. Bikes in perfect condition have no stories..


Pretty bad when your bike calls ya Grace!


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Velobike said:


> I thought everyone checked out how the opposition was working in a race.
> For your further amusement, I also check out things like how straight their derailleur is hanging, what ratio they're in, how much their bike's rear end flexes (if at all) when they put down power, their suspension reaction, and if they're out of the saddle.
> 
> But back to the point, the ability to exert further power during a race.
> ...


There are power meters that display your power thru 360 degrees of travel. When you can see your output in real time, you come to understand the need to use clipless for maximum power to the wheel. I often use both legs at high torque to balance out the bike’s stresses. Lastly, several years ago I crashed 5 miles from my truck. Knee injured but was able to pedal back to the staging area only using one leg. Slower but I got home.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Pedalon2018 said:


> There are power meters that display your power thru 360 degrees of travel. When you can see your output in real time, you come to understand the need to use clipless for maximum power to the wheel. I often use both legs at high torque to balance out the bike’s stresses. Lastly, several years ago I crashed 5 miles from my truck. Knee injured but was able to pedal back to the staging area only using one leg. Slower but I got home.


I've done that when my knees (That need total joint replacement) blow up, numerous times... with platform pedals. A peg-leg mountain bike ride out, slow going and back to the vehicamobile...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Pedalon2018 said:


> There are power meters that display your power thru 360 degrees of travel. When you can see your output in real time, you come to understand the need to use clipless for maximum power to the wheel....


Thanks, handy to know that. `
It would be interesting to put people who think they pull up on one of those and see how many actually can maintain pull up power for any length of time.
It would probably come down to just the racers and dedicated trainers, not most ordinary riders.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Velobike said:


> Thanks, handy to know that. `
> It would be interesting to put people who think they pull up on one of those and see how many actually can maintain pull up power for any length of time.
> It would probably come down to just the racers and dedicated trainers, not most ordinary riders.


Or the dreamers...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BansheeRune said:


> Or the dreamers...



Or people who just prefer them. Even if it's only a placebo that's plenty good reason.

Tests have shown that there is only a very slight difference in power transfer between the two but again for some even a slight difference is a valid reason to choose clipless..


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Or people who just prefer them. Even if it's only a placebo that's plenty good reason.
> 
> Tests have shown that there is only a very slight difference in power transfer between the two but again for some even a slight difference is a valid reason to choose clipless..


Choose your weapon, I suppose. More has to do with method of use that one is better than the other. 
Similar to sugar pill, but different!


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Clipless pedals are a great way to learn how to fall in slow motion.


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## EdWiser (Feb 3, 2021)

Having been riding clipless since 1985. It help with keeping a high cadence and a smoother bike riding. Not all the rocking you see. I ride rollers for years helps one learn how to get the power to your petals.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

stripes said:


> Clipless pedals are a great way to learn how to fall in slow motion.


Or learn how to unclip.


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## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

I just added a post on anyone going BACK to clipless after trying the flats. I am still on the fence, but leaning towards going back to clipless. Still need to put some more miles on flats to be sure though. But I need to try a quality pedal with a nice mtb sneaker. I ain't gonna switch back and fourth like some, will be one or the other. Both have ups and downs...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Or learn how to unclip.


The trouble is most people first have to have the realisation they are falling, and then transmit that to their legs, in the microsecond before they hit the ground. 

It's definitely something that should be practised. (The unclipping, not the hitting the ground bit.)


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Velobike said:


> The trouble is most people first have to have the realisation they are falling, and then transmit that to their legs, in the microsecond before they hit the ground.
> 
> It's definitely something that should be practised. (The unclipping, not the hitting the ground bit.)


Velo, you hafta be a bicycle God and able to unclip, use an impact wrench or whatevah in less than a millisecond. 😉


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

jay_paradox said:


> Has this debate been settled yet? In my opinion these are clearly the best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No………I rode them for years. NFG


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## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

Pedalon2018 said:


> No………I rode them for years. NFG


Agree, those are the dumbest pedal invention ever, i can't believe i used them for years, but we didn't know back then. And they look goofy too, and accomplish nothing except make your toes cold and numb. (of course, no offense too anyone still using them)


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

I was being sarcastic...I can’t believe I used them back in the day either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

Tall BMX'r said:


> I don't mind paint chips on my bike. Bikes in perfect condition have no stories..


Unless you ride Ti. Paint? We don’t need any paint where I am going.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

Having recently returned to the dirt after a long break, I am definitely a flat pedal guy. I remember those plastic toe traps posted above... never crashed more than using those torture devices! Can't believe we bought into that crap...

These days, I ride platforms, usually composites because I'm cheap. I really like being able to take my inside foot off during a high speed washout..... Plus I didn't need to buy special shoes - see prior cheap comment. I wear old Vans that don't pass dress muster anymore, and I'm good. Especially as I'm prone to doing dumb stuff.

I tried the clipless type, and riding connected was fun. Until I wanted to kick the bike into the trees before breaking my ankles. Just not for me. And that's what is great about a free market - there's something for everyone.


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## Fltrail (Jan 5, 2007)

I’ve been riding clipless for 30 years, but originally started on flats in my teens racing BMX.
I’ve been wanting to try flats for the ability to take my foot off the pedals easily. Drifting and sliding in corners.
I have a pair of flats I can try, but don’t have any riding shoes.
Do you think I could get by trying the flats with some normal sneakers to see if an old dog and learn new tricks?


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

You can try, but mtb flat shoes are grippier and stiffer, so you aren't going to get the full benefit of riding flats. 
Online stores like Jenson Usa have ride concept mtb shoes on sale. Would be a inexpensive way to try out good flat shoes


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

I rode clipped in for decades, but I've been almost exclusively on flats for the last few years. I tried them out mainly for skills development and found that I just preferred them overall. However, I put my SPD pedals back on this winter so I could use my Shimano winter boots, and I do notice more climbing power clipped in. Overall I prefer the flat pedal riding experience, but for most races I would probably choose to be clipped in. I just did a 40k race with 2800 ft of climbing, and used my SPDs for that.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Fltrail said:


> I’ve been riding clipless for 30 years, but originally started on flats in my teens racing BMX.
> I’ve been wanting to try flats for the ability to take my foot off the pedals easily. Drifting and sliding in corners.
> I have a pair of flats I can try, but don’t have any riding shoes.
> Do you think I could get by trying the flats with some normal sneakers to see if an old dog and learn new tricks?


Frankly, you can use any shoes you like. Many times, shoes labeled as "bike" translates to more expensive and not terribly different from other choices. 
Personally, I use a pair of Keen Jasper or 5-10 Guide Tennies. I cannot stand shoes with plywood midsoles, too isolating and also limits traction immensely.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

I’m trying to learn flats, putting them on my fatty, where they’re needed in the snow (clogs cleats). I saw very good reviews for the Bontrager line elite plastic version, so they’re a cheap experiment. I’ve been wearing my Oboz low cut hikers when it’s warm and dry but of course taller boots in snow.

So far it’s feeling better than previous attempts. The loss of climbing power is noticeable, but I can live with it. What remains troubling is the loss of security when things get really bumpy. Eventually I’ll need to find better shoes if I decide to try flats on my new Top Fuel (not due until June). Until then I’ll be honing flat skills on the Farley, my only MTB for now.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

I totally understand that there are specific shoes for biking with flats, and that’s awesome.

But, I just wear my older Vans or similar that are not quite new enough to pass as dress shoes…..

My riding friends wear everything from mtb specific shoes, skate shoes, suede pumas, to running shoes. No one seems to be any slower than the others.

Wear whatever you are most comfortable with. The pegs on a good pair of pedals seem to grip into most anything.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Dkayak said:


> I’m trying to learn flats, putting them on my fatty, where they’re needed in the snow (clogs cleats). I saw very good reviews for the Bontrager line elite plastic version, so they’re a cheap experiment. I’ve been wearing my Oboz low cut hikers when it’s warm and dry but of course taller boots in snow.
> 
> So far it’s feeling better than previous attempts. The loss of climbing power is noticeable, but I can live with it. What remains troubling is the loss of security when things get really bumpy. Eventually I’ll need to find better shoes if I decide to try flats on my new Top Fuel (not due until June). Until then I’ll be honing flat skills on the Farley, my only MTB for now.


As with any format, it takes time and practice to get feeling confident and lay down some power.
My pedaling method does just fine with platforms. SPD's are fine when I am not doing anything like trialsy horseplay. In the power department, platforms do me right.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

So people routinely use both clips and flats? I've got friends who do that, for XC trails they know well they clip in and rowdy stuff they use flats. I never could do that, I don't really vary my riding style.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

PTCbiker said:


> So people routinely use both clips and flats? I've got friends who do that, for XC trails they know well they clip in and rowdy stuff they use flats. I never could do that, I don't really vary my riding style.


All of my road and gravel riding is clipped in, so my pedaling style and instincts to clip out and back in are deeply ingrained. No thought required after over 20,000 miles. I now run Shimano XT M8100 pedals on all bikes, so there’s no thinking about how to clip into slightly different models. By setting the spring tension so loose they only hold with a purely vertical pull, even the slightest rotation releases the (multi-release) cleats. As a result I can easily dab a foot and never need to think about unclipping in a get-off. 

So from that setup, it’s the flats that pose the learning issue. Even if/when I adapt to flats, clipped in will still be easy. It’s always going to be instinctive, like “learning to ride a bike”.


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## Koban (Aug 8, 2021)

I used SPD over 20 years on my XC hardtails. I used flats for working on my technique in the past. (bunny hop, clearing drops)

Since a few years I also ride a trail fully with flats. 90% of mine time I ride my fully. I also see that my interested is less XC. I started two years ago to experiment with jumps and drops. still learning and using flat pedals for that.


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## spaeth (May 24, 2004)

After 30 years of riding I switched to flats last year and I love it. It takes many months to get comfortable in all situations but I now feel great about being cleat free. I have tried quite a few pairs of shoes and Vans are my favorite. They grip the pedal quite well and are stiff enough while still allowing some flex. I am talking about suede lace up low top Vans and not the slip on ones.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

spaeth said:


> After 30 years of riding I switched to flats last year and I love it. It takes many months to get comfortable in all situations but I now feel great about being cleat free. I have tried quite a few pairs of shoes and Vans are my favorite. They grip the pedal quite well and are stiff enough while still allowing some flex. I am talking about suede lace up low top Vans and not the slip on ones.


Coulda swore there were a couple lost slip ons along the trail, thought they mighta been yours! 😉 
Vans, Chucks, they all work...


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Flat pedals are the best!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

jabrabu said:


> View attachment 1974249
> 
> 
> Flat pedals are the best!


And that wasn’t a moving violation….


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## Fltrail (Jan 5, 2007)

That’s one big reason I’m reluctant to go to flats! I have scars from when I was 13 racing BMX with flats that are still visible.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

PTCbiker said:


> So people routinely use both clips and flats? I've got friends who do that, for XC trails they know well they clip in and rowdy stuff they use flats. I never could do that, I don't really vary my riding style.


I tried that a couple of seasons then got really frustrated every time I switched back because I’d have to readjust my bike fit every time. My foot was in a different position and height from clipless to flats as the cleat puts you a bit higher up and your foot is in a static position as opposed to flats. 

Made me crazy. Ended up abandoning clipless for flats for MTB about 10 years ago.


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## jay_paradox (Oct 21, 2020)

I’m too lazy to be switching pedals...so for now I’m just sticking with flats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

stripes said:


> I tried that a couple of seasons then got really frustrated every time I switched back because I’d have to readjust my bike fit every time. My foot was in a different position and height from clipless to flats as the cleat puts you a bit higher up and your foot is in a static position as opposed to flats.
> 
> Made me crazy. Ended up abandoning clipless for flats for MTB about 10 years ago.


Nothing is more annoying than having to change the way something is done in "flight". Swapping pedals will do that every time! 
Straitline Defacto is laser shin removal in action but I haven't found another pedal that does the job like it.

And, your bike hates it when you use 4 letter words, like "flat"... Mind your tongue!!


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## sae (Jan 14, 2019)

Syntace Number Nine flat pedals , as they say too expensive but worth every euro/dollar , with 5-10 Freerider it's the perfect combo


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Tenet makes a nice pedal. 

DMR Vaults have monster grip but terrible seals and you need special tools. Crankbrothers Stamp 7 grip well but don’t spin well enough for trail riding. Deity Deftrap feel good but died in under a year, same as the much less grippy Raceface Chester.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Might have to bust out the Kona Wah Wah 2's and Shimano AM7's again sometime.
AFTER Thursday's race though...


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## weeksy950 (Jan 11, 2012)

Always flats here.... DH, Enduro, trails, XC and also even road  

My lad is trying out SPDs for racing DH, but i'm yet to be convinced.


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## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

I have been riding a lot the past couple weeks after trying flats, I have decided to go clipless full time. I am just so used to them, i keep the tension light so popping in and out is quick and easy. I don't do any "bike tricks", i love the attached feeling, so much more fluid and they are much better for climbing!! Guess i'm jus set in my ways, like a lot of folks here. Some may feel the same way for flat pedals, and that's fine, nothig wrong with flats.


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## R3aPerCr3W (11 mo ago)

PTCbiker said:


> So people routinely use both clips and flats? I've got friends who do that, for XC trails they know well they clip in and rowdy stuff they use flats. I never could do that, I don't really vary my riding style.


Varying your riding style its a good. New skills and adapt to what ever pedal that you are using curently. 

Its just like having a new ride every time all the time.


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## R3aPerCr3W (11 mo ago)

93M500 said:


> I have been riding a lot the past couple weeks after trying flats, I have decided to go clipless full time. I am just so used to them, i keep the tension light so popping in and out is quick and easy. I don't do any "bike tricks", i love the attached feeling, so much more fluid and they are much better for climbing!! Guess i'm jus set in my ways, like a lot of folks here. Some may feel the same way for flat pedals, and that's fine, nothig wrong with flats.


Flats or clips it goes down to same debate as single chain ring or double ? 
Hoe bout tripple chain rings for kicks ....


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

93M500 said:


> I have been riding a lot the past couple weeks after trying flats, I have decided to go clipless full time. I am just so used to them, i keep the tension light so popping in and out is quick and easy. I don't do any "bike tricks", i love the attached feeling, so much more fluid and they are much better for climbing!! Guess i'm jus set in my ways, like a lot of folks here. Some may feel the same way for flat pedals, and that's fine, nothig wrong with flats.


Do it your way. How better is that?


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

Never anything but flats, only way to go for me.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Velobike said:


> Thanks, handy to know that. `
> It would be interesting to put people who think they pull up on one of those and see how many actually can *maintain pull up power for any length of time*.
> It would probably come down to just the racers and dedicated trainers, not most ordinary riders.


Who says maintaining pull up for "any length of time" is important?
All that's important is that I can do it whenever I need to.
I'm not entering races on my singlespeed anymore, I'm bustin' moves up extreme terrain.
Sometimes -- often -- the benefit of pulling up exists for only a few turns of the crank.
But I want that huge benefit just the same. Right then. Not necessarily long term.
Try pulling the crank up with your back foot without clips -- doesn't work. Provides 0% of an ability I want 100% of in that moment.

I use aggressive platform pedals and comfy 5.10 shoes on my geared bikes. They're good there.
Meanwhile you'll have a hard time convincing me to give up my clippy pedals for off road singlespeeding.
I've tried both types of pedals and honestly cannot understand how anyone could come to the conclusion that platform pedals measure up for riding singlespeed in steep terrain that includes testy features.
Assuming you want to get up the hill before dark.
=sParty


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> ...I've tried both types of pedals and honestly cannot understand how anyone could come to the conclusion that platform pedals measure up for riding singlespeed in steep terrain that includes testy features.
> Assuming you want to get up the hill before dark.
> =sParty


I don't actually use platform pedals, I use track pedals. Lighter and cause less butchery.

But nonetheless I get up those hills.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Velobike said:


> I don't actually use platform pedals, I use track pedals. Lighter and cause less butchery.
> 
> But nonetheless I get up those hills.


I'm actually not here to change anybody's mind.
Rather, I'm growing tired of hearing from those who're trying to change mine.
Well, I guess a little of the former, too.  Okay, I'll back off now. 
=sParty


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## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

I love my new deore xt clipless. I do admit, now and then I have some close calls where I wish i had flats, goes both ways i guess. I've come to realize personal preference is huge in this arena.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Me matter what, we can all just blame sParty’s fault that we are old kids on bikes!


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

BansheeRune said:


> Me matter what, we can all just blame sParty’s fault that we are old kids on bikes!


Covid boredom is making me crazy.

Er... crazier.
=sParty


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

It is wimpy disease by comparison to blood cancer.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

BansheeRune said:


> It is wimpy disease by comparison to blood cancer.


I sooo get that, my friend. I'll just sit over here facing the corner. 
🤦‍♂️
=sParty


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not a racer, not concerned with PRs, none of that BS. I ride because I enjoy riding. And I like riding platform pedals. Eff that locking in BS. I don't need it, not for me.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Colo Springs E said:


> I'm not a racer, not concerned with PRs, none of that BS. I ride because I enjoy riding. And I like riding platform pedals. Eff that locking in BS. I don't need it. Works for you? Good. Doesn't work for me.


I don't like donating to the emergency rooms...


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## Offspring (Jan 29, 2006)

I just wish crankbrothers would get some more L black 7's in....


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## R3aPerCr3W (11 mo ago)

Flat pedal all the way .. "its The Way"


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## Santoman (9 mo ago)

It is Staitline Defactos with 5.10 Free riders (preferred over the FR pros) on my FS. I prefer click-ins on my HT.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

As my riding improves, I’m jumping more, which I suppose is normal. However, instead of looking for FS bikes, I am gravitating to dirt jump style bikes. So, it’s flats and vans for my foreseeable future….


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## Hrodulf (12 mo ago)

SPD's only baby...


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

I have been riding SPD'S for 30 + years, and bought a pair of Chester's but have yet to switch. They are on my xc bike for cruising around with my dog, SPD on my Orbea Rise. Guess I should give them a shot.


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## kevjob (Jan 25, 2021)

I rode cilps for 12 years, stopped riding about 20 years ago then started back up last year. Flats all the way for me, once I learned how to use them plus I love the ability to bail a foot in a nanosecond.


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## BobFro (11 mo ago)

Flats on my MTB for the last couple years. Riding mid foot and stomping corners is more fun than pulling for climbing for me.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

BobFro said:


> Flats on my MTB for the last couple years. Riding mid foot and stomping corners is more fun than pulling for climbing for me.


Sounds strikingly familiar! 
With my knee and spine issues, I require changing foot position as needed. Not too much mid foot however, I do it from time to time.


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## Frankie2blue (8 mo ago)

Yes I also switched to flats a while back. Good with me.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

The obvious answer is of course people ride flats. People ride clipless too. One isn't better than another, it's just personal preference. 
And to answer your question, it's flats only for MTB, cleats for road riding for me.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Skooks said:


> The obvious answer is of course people ride flats. People ride clipless too. One isn't better than another, it's just personal preference.
> And to answer your question, it's flats only for MTB, cleats for road riding for me.


My bike is gonna soap your mouth for talking "flats"!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm just about 60 and now days some of the long steep ups I'll just hike. My flats work well on hike-a-bikes. Easy.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

PS mtb said:


> I have been riding SPD'S for 30 + years, and bought a pair of Chester's but have yet to switch. They are on my xc bike for cruising around with my dog, SPD on my Orbea Rise. Guess I should give them a shot.


I rode SPDs for 15 years. I learned to ride on them. Then about 2 years ago I put flats on my hard tail. I thought I'd just use them to improve bunny hopping technique. It was definitely awkward, but somewhat enjoyable, too.

Last season I decided to commit to flats for a full season on the main bike and see how it went. I now love them and will never go back. I love how they feel when pressing into a turn, my bunny hops are better than ever, and I have no issues with feet coming off the pedals.


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