# Session 9.9 Carbon & NomadC = Same Weight



## nolson450 (Mar 6, 2007)

It sounds like the new Session Carbon 9.9 frame is about 5lbs, same as a NomadC. Pretty amazing that Trek was able to deliver a legit DH frame at a close weight to a very light 160mm frame.

You've also got to think Santa Cruz and Intense are working on 5-6.6 (sans shock) weight Carbon 180mm travel frames.

Getting closer and closer to people trail riding DH bikes, 29-33lb DH bikes.

Hard to believe that this is lighter than most peoples trail bikes....


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## rowdstar (Jun 7, 2009)

lust.....


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

If I get a LG to test I will weigh and see. Tires and wheels +3 LBS for sure. Boxxer eh add another 1 LB the rest of the kit could get by. I would say add a solid 4 pounds for real DH parts and long term durability.


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## Maverick05 (Jan 24, 2011)

******** - its not 5lbs is this Pinkbike :thumbsup:


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I bet that frame in large without shock weighs a tick over 6lb.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

doesn't vital have scale shots? I haven't known vital to be totally full of crap, and trek has been known to go for/accomplish the "ridiculously light DH frame" thing before.


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## The Beater (Aug 17, 2008)

If it is 5 lbs it is lighter then a nomad frame by 1.25 unless you are counting just the frame on the nomad and no shock


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

the frame is 5lbs sans shock. Not really fair to compare it to another frame that has a shock.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

GERMANS!!

http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/28lb-dh-bike-vital-mtb-737238.html


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

when will this end....disposalable bikes for one season and a season being for most a summer....I don't see a bike that light lasting two seasons....great for the poor,rich and people who want the greatest, but for everyday people who want their investment to last this is not the bike.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> when will this end....disposalable bikes for one season and a season being for most a summer....I don't see a bike that light lasting two seasons....great for the poor,rich and people who want the greatest, but for everyday people who want their investment to last this is not the bike.


I'm curious as well. I'm keeping an open mind on it, because carbon is way the fyck stronger then alu, and my alu first gen session 88 has held up pretty well - slightly notchy bearings and worn DU/Reducer bushings after 2.5 years of riding it is the worst I can say about it. No dents, a few scratches here and there, but overall the frame is going pretty fuggin strong. Initial reports on the v10 carbon seem pretty solid (7lb), and thats just glued together carbon tubing, thats not using anywhere near the tech that trek has to throw at carbon.

But also, in fairness, I don't think the bike is being marketed as anything else. They made an alu counterpart with the exact same geometry, and adjustments, that is more traditional and heavier frame if you're nervous about new tech.

But I suspect, in 5 years, trek, giant, specialized, and santa cruz will all have 5-6lb carbon DH frames, and they'll be doing just fine.


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## killjoyken (Jun 12, 2009)

William42 said:


> Initial reports on the v10 carbon seem pretty solid (7lb), and thats just glued together carbon tubing, thats not using anywhere near the tech that trek has to throw at carbon.


The only "tech" that I can find on the 9.9 over the V10c is the use of bladders for the internal shaping of the carbon tubes. Every carbon frame is basically glued together carbon tubing.

IIRC, the V10c was the first carbon DH frame on the market a year ago and I know they wanted to make a stronger frame, not just a lighter one. They posted videos and info on their JRA impact tests. I'd love to see a 9.9 undergo the same tests, which are more than the industry standards.

I'm not saying the 9.9 would fail, but when you have 2lbs less than the V10c, you've got to wonder if it's as strong. When the V10c came out, SC had to prove to everyone that a carbon DH frame was durable enough. They did that by showing it passing impact tests and racing it all season under some massive riders. Have you met Peaty in person? I met him at Sea Otter last year and he's huge!

Gwin is tiny compared to the Syndicate.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

killjoyken said:


> The only "tech" that I can find on the 9.9 over the V10c is the use of bladders for the internal shaping of the carbon tubes. Every carbon frame is basically glued together carbon tubing.
> 
> IIRC, the V10c was the first carbon DH frame on the market a year ago and I know they wanted to make a stronger frame, not just a lighter one. They posted videos and info on their JRA impact tests. I'd love to see a 9.9 undergo the same tests, which are more than the industry standards.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that the v10 is super light, and very strong. Its a pretty rad bike. The GT fury came before it (as the first *Modern* DH bike, although there have been many in the past). I have indeed met peaty and minnaar in person, and they're big dudes. But its also pretty well known that they're on lighter frames that what is available to the public, (and those seem to be holding up pretty well, and I think minnaars was right around 6 lbs, maybe 5 and change). If we're going by the imperical data, lightweight carbon frames seem to be holding up just fine under professional riders.

Gwin may be smaller, but he's a ridiculously strong dude and, and he's going alot faster then anybody....else, really. I think Gwin, leov, mosley and shandro are pretty capable of putting some stress on a bicycle. The 9.9 is holding up just fine so far.

But as far as the way they're building it, I'm sure somebody can correct me if I'm making any mistakes here, but from what I understand, santa cruz is making individual tube layups, overlapping them, and then gluing it all together. Trek is using bladders to make joint layup all one part, rather then overlapping sections and making it (their claim) stiffer and lighter. Nobody has any doubt that trek knows their sh1t when it comes to carbon layup. Their mountain frames are fuggin legit, and including armor in easily damaged places is a great idea.

I'd say that santa cruz knows it can put out a 6lb frame, and potentially a 5 and change frame with a full carbon (including the rear triangle) setup, and the things holding them back are that they are worried that it will be such a full on race frame that it wont stand up to long term abuse. Trek obviously thinks either they can make that 5lb setup, and have it stand up as a race frame certainly, and probably long term abuse, OR that there is a market for a super light stiff race frame that wont be the most long term durable product on the market, and thats why they're offering in two high end options, one aluminum.

I agree, I'm curious to see how they hold up for the avg punter, but I suspect that 5-6lbs is going to be the new "light weight carbon" where 8-9 was for aluminum.


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## killjoyken (Jun 12, 2009)

William42 said:


> But as far as the way they're building it, I'm sure somebody can correct me if I'm making any mistakes here, but from what I understand, santa cruz is making individual tube layups, overlapping them, and then gluing it all together. Trek is using bladders to make joint layup all one part, rather then overlapping sections and making it (their claim) stiffer and lighter. Nobody has any doubt that trek knows their sh1t when it comes to carbon layup. Their mountain frames are fuggin legit, and including armor in easily damaged places is a great idea.


I thought they were both using a one piece layup, but I may be wrong. There have been so many carbon frames out this year that it's getting hard to remember who does what. Maybe I'm thinking of the NomadC?



William42 said:


> I'd say that santa cruz knows it can put out a 6lb frame, and potentially a 5 and change frame with a full carbon (including the rear triangle) setup, and the things holding them back are that they are worried that it will be such a full on race frame that it wont stand up to long term abuse. Trek obviously thinks either they can make that 5lb setup, and have it stand up as a race frame certainly, and probably long term abuse, OR that there is a market for a super light stiff race frame that wont be the most long term durable product on the market, and thats why they're offering in two high end options, one aluminum.
> 
> I agree, I'm curious to see how they hold up for the avg punter, but I suspect that 5-6lbs is going to be the new "light weight carbon" where 8-9 was for aluminum.


Exactly. Not to mention that at the price Trek is selling the 9.9 for, not a lot of people will be able to afford to test out the durability. Only time will tell.


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

Trek has been doing bladder molding for a long time. Heck, when I was a wee little one still at University, one of my senior projects was working with an ex-Trek (and ex Boeing...) composites professor setting up the layup around a custom bladder and mold for what was Pro-Flex soon to be K2 rear chainstay. Nothing new here, but I'd guess better materials are available now for a much better price.


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## nolson450 (Mar 6, 2007)

> the frame is 5lbs sans shock. Not really fair to compare it to another frame that has a shock.


I am comparing to a frame without a shock. My NomadC is 6.2 with an RP23. According to Sicklines, a Large Nomad C is 2412.2g or 5.13 lbs sans shock.



> when will this end....disposable bikes for one season and a season being for most a summer....I don't see a bike that light lasting two seasons....great for the poor,rich and people who want the greatest, but for everyday people who want their investment to last this is not the bike.


SMT, that isn't what this thread is about. We get that you're a "hardcore DHer who needs a working man's DH sled", but the point is that we will eventually ALL benefit once 5-6 brands are producing reliable 5-6lb Carbon DH frames, which would result in 30-32lb DH bikes for the majority, and priced similar to the bike you ride now.

Hundreds of threads are the " DH bike I can still pedal..." We all want the same thing, to be able to ride our DH/ FR bikes as much as possible, can't go to Whistler/ Mammoth/ Northstar/ etc every weekend.



> Gwin is tiny compared to the Syndicate.


But Gwin's medals from this season alone are almost as heavy as the entire history of the Syndicate. Just sayin'.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

nolson450 said:


> But Gwin's medals from this season alone are almost as heavy as the entire history of the Syndicate. Just sayin'.


Actually, I think the syndicate is the first or second most winning team in the history of DH. I think the old Sunn or something got more with nico, and acc, but yah, Minnaar and peat and rennie have definitely earned the syndicate some golds. Give gwin 10 years of a season like this, and he'll start approaching the number the syndicate have.


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

I wish people would give as much effort to innovate towards other parts of the bike...

Surely fork chassis could use some innovation, someone could actually make realistically priced carbon rims and most of all the drivetrain!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^Carbon fork lowers and one piece carbon lower crowns and steerers would be great on DH bikes!

I know, you clods will bash up your carbon lowers but some of us don't drag our bikes across the ground


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

There was that upside down Fox 40 a little while back... that would be new/fun.
Fox Prototype Inverted DH fork - World Exclusive - Pinkbike.com


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

*8lbs. 12oz. as it hangs.....*

Here is my new build and as of today it hangs at 8lbs. 12 oz. with the following:
Medium 9.9 Frame
Fox DHX RC4 with Steel 450 X2.75" Spring
SDG Carbon I-Beam Seatpost
SDG I-Fly Seat with knobbies
Headset upper and lower cups

A few things, after building a NERD sheet with all build parts and such listed out with Sicklines photographed weights for 85% of the items, it should come out to 30.66 lbs. or so with DH Wheels and on and on....but as it hangs right now in the scale it should weigh 7.18lbs, not 8 and 3/4 lbs......Good Problems to have I guess 

I will create a thread once its built for anyone's perusal!

Cheers 1IH


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## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

Trek's OCLV process has some advantages over the traditional carbon frame in the weight vs strength department.


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## danglingmanhood (Sep 16, 2005)

Get that sucker built! It's going to be sick and feathery!


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

OneEyedHito said:


> Here is my new build and as of today it hangs at 8lbs. 12 oz. with the following:
> Medium 9.9 Frame
> Fox DHX RC4 with Steel 450 X2.75" Spring
> SDG Carbon I-Beam Seatpost
> ...


Isn't that build worthy of a Vivid Air, or a Ti-spring at the very least?

Congrats on what is sure to be a sick build!


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

Iceman2058 said:


> Isn't that build worthy of a Vivid Air, or a Ti-spring at the very least?
> 
> Congrats on what is sure to be a sick build!


Here is parts list:
as a side note: I ran Muddy Mary UST version last season along with Wicked Wills DH Tires a few times, so these Hans Dampfs 2.35 are going to be my early season Mud TIre, then I will go back to the DH Wicked Will's when it dries out. I run tubeless always.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

looks bamf, 740mm bars are a trifle narrow for my taste, but still pretty damn manageable. Its gonna be rad. You could probably manage to hit about 1800-1900g on the wheelset with something else. and still have something that wont explode, as it doesn't appear budget is an issue.


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

William42 said:


> looks bamf, 740mm bars are a trifle narrow for my taste, but still pretty damn manageable. Its gonna be rad. You could probably manage to hit about 1800-1900g on the wheelset with something else. and still have something that wont explode, as it doesn't appear budget is an issue.


Gonna rock the Deity Blacklabels instead, 787 wide, and I thought about finding a lighter wheelset, but for a UST set really with the width of these Red Fires, I can't find a set that match them and are UST, the Opiums are 2mm narrower......I love FATASS Schwalbes.


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## nolson450 (Mar 6, 2007)

looking forward to seeing that build! Once I put my coil shock on the NomadC, it will be in the same weight range! And I have carbon wheels!


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

nolson450 said:


> looking forward to seeing that build! Once I put my coil shock on the NomadC, it will be in the same weight range! And I have carbon wheels!


Here it sits a few hours ago, it now has the chain on it and it is weighing 32lbs., 10oz., The Deity bars are too high, I am a lil' tike, so I am gonna put a set of the Bontrager Flat DH 820's on it to get me a little lower in front, but for the most part this is my race bike for 2012. I gave it the requisite bunny hop through the show room tour and it is so stiff it was WEIRD......in a good way, kinda like when your babysitter, oh never mind....


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## primefocus (Feb 11, 2007)

Clean!


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

I wonder what the bar width was when I raced a Proflex BEAST in eastern WA? 

Maybe 26"? Dunno. proflex-beast Photo Album - Page 1 - Pinkbike.com


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

it doesn't look very fast there, I'm of the opinion that its hard to go fast in a flat room with no chain.


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## nolson450 (Mar 6, 2007)

Awesome build. Surprised you didn't go with lighter wheels (1800g ish)/ more legit DH tires. I


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

nolson450 said:


> Awesome build. Surprised you didn't go with lighter wheels (1800g ish)/ more legit DH tires. I


Here is the build thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/trek/new-addition-trek-session-9-9-complete-766027-post8964372.html#post8964372

As for the wheels and tires, I am kinda torn, these tires packed up bad yesterday so ordered a set of G4 Muds that I will cut for training, but I love the wheels, strong like bull and quiet like Ninja.......so **** I don't know. Got a good suggestion for a tried and true set of wheels, I am a banger btw.....I even ride my 6" bike like a DH now, I love just slamming it into corners and such. :madman:


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## genemk (Sep 15, 2009)

Sick looking setup! Not sure if these fit your needs, but I'm loving my Hope hub/Mavic EX 823 wheelset. Haven't touched it since I got it and still running true about 6 months later and I destroyed 2 rear wheels and did a bit of damage to a 3rd over the past 1.5 years. If you want a quiet wheel don't get the Hope hubs though. They're pretty loud.


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## OneEyedHito (Jun 20, 2009)

genemk said:


> Sick looking setup! Not sure if these fit your needs, but I'm loving my Hope hub/Mavic EX 823 wheelset. Haven't touched it since I got it and still running true about 6 months later and I destroyed 2 rear wheels and did a bit of damage to a 3rd over the past 1.5 years. If you want a quiet wheel don't get the Hope hubs though. They're pretty loud.


Good looking out, thanks for the compliment and suggestion. I love Hope anything so I might be able to live with the noise....some would say if I hear my hubs then I am not going fast enough


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## genemk (Sep 15, 2009)

Haha, I like that. It does work well for letting people know you're coming up on them. And at least it's a nice crisp sound so it's not annoying unless you mind the noise in general.


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