# fork opinions???...Manitou SUCKS



## pherret (Feb 18, 2004)

I am trying to purchase a new fork, but need opinions regarding the externally adjustable forks like the psylo. 

I called manitou and asked their tech guy if they made extra firm springs. he said yes but you have to get it from our vendors, so I order the fork. When I tried to order the springs, they aren't being made. Call Manitou back and they say they don't have x-firm spring kits. So now I have to eat the shipping charges to send the fork back and learned never to order manitou because they can't take the time to take their heads out of their a$$e$ to see if they have x-firm spring kits for customers.

I feel much better now, so here are my questions... Should I even try a Rock Shox Psylo? I am 250-60 and am going to put this fork on my Jamis Komodo. Are their any other externally adjustable forks to consider. If I stick with a regular fork I want atleast 100mm travel coil shock with rebound adjustment. Looking at mx comp coil. Any clydes use the air preload? Any problems? Any opinions on which fork to buy?

Thanks

Pherret


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## BiggDaddy (Jul 20, 2004)

Manitou makes the X-Firm spring for their variable travel forks but I think it is listed as Firm not X-Firm. It depends on what fork you have. There is always a delay from release to meeting consumer needs with Manitou. It took me 2 years to get a spring for a Black that I had. I rode a Minute 1 for a while but traded out for a Fox FloatRL 100/80. It took a while to get used to the air fork but I'll never go back. I weigh 270 and have had no problems dialing the fork in. As far as variable travel, the Talas rocks and you can find them at pretty good prices. Go to bestbikebuys.com and punch in fox talas. $409.00 right now at Jensonusa.com for the R model. The Talas is stiff, strong, light, and at $409 pretty cheap unless you want compression and lockout. Stay away from the Psylo. I hated mine. Way to much maintenance and it was a pain getting the right springs. They don't make anything very heavy anyway. I bent the lowers in 3 rides too. Good luck.


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## Brandon (Dec 30, 2003)

I have an MX pro, at 225 I'm running at the upper-end of the air assist (low-pressure air). I have a Manitou Xvert-Air that I like on another bike, I had to get a firmer coil (It's an air/coil hybrid setup) that I like and it has huge tire clearance, unfortunately they're no longer available.


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## grrrah (Mar 26, 2004)

I just put an X-firm spring in my Black Elite on my Komodo yesterday. what kind of fork is it?

edit: they have firm and x-firm available..


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## pherret (Feb 18, 2004)

It is a 2004 manitou black elite 90-120. They have the extra firm kits for the 2003 80-100 or the 100-120. The firm kit supposidly is for 180-210lb riders. The Manitou tech said the firms would be like butter under my weight.


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## pherret (Feb 18, 2004)

How are the air forks working. I have stayed away from the air for fear of blowing a seal. I had a float rear shock and after every ride I had to pump it up 20-40 psi if I took a few big hits. I went to a coil over and never have to wory about a broken seal or checking my air pressure. I liked the feal however of the air. 

Have the air forks gotten better? At 270 what do you have to pump up the air chambers to? Do they maintain the air pressure? I dont care about compression as much as I cre about rebound. The lockout might be nice, but after a few times I would probably never use it


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## BiggDaddy (Jul 20, 2004)

*Air Works for Clydes*

I took a break from serious riding for about 6 years. I went from 205 to 325. At 325, I bought an S Enduro. It had the Fox Float R with Itch Switch. I pumped it up to 300lbs all the time and never had a problem. I did find that I was having to add air every time I checked it but Fox tells me that the more air you put in, the more escapes when you unscrew the pump. I started pumping it up to 315 (15 PSI over its max) and it would read 300 every time I checked it. I've had several fox rear shox and never had a problem. My epic runs smooth as it gets with no worries.

I am totally impressed with Fox Forx. I have yet to have a problem. I run the air at 135-140 and rarely, if ever, bottom the fork. It'll hold 200psi but at that PSI it rides like a rock. As far as loosing air from bottoming, that shouldn't happen. Most Forks and Shocks are made to bottom occasionally. Of course, I like the fox because they are so easily serviced in my home shop, which is my kitchen table. You can seriously rebuild the whole fork in about an hour. Rear shocks are a little different but your end of the maintenance takes about 15 minutes and if you keep it up you'll never have a problem.

I was totally against air until my buddy let me ride his Enduro with a Talas on the front. Bye Bye went the Manitou. I switched to air and will never go back.


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## fredrick flintstone (Jun 1, 2004)

*fox vanilla rl*

I feel much better now, so here are my questions... Should I even try a Rock Shox Psylo? I am 250-60 and am going to put this fork on my Jamis Komodo. Are their any other externally adjustable forks to consider. If I stick with a regular fork I want atleast 100mm travel coil shock with rebound adjustment. Looking at mx comp coil. Any clydes use the air preload? Any problems? Any opinions on which fork to buy?

the popular opinion among clydes seems to be the fox vanilla rl or rlc. they offer six difernt springs. I will be putting one on my next bike. look at some of the older clydes postings on forks.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Fred, what was the final decision on a new frame? 

Bottom Line, skip the Psylo, it has poor dampening compared to its peers. Get a Manitou Black, Zochii or Fox and change the springs to meet your weight. You should really check with Larry @ mtnhighcyclery for great prices on Fox and marzochii forks.


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## BiggDaddy (Jul 20, 2004)

Stay away from Rock Shox. That's just my opinion. I have never had good luck with them. Also, I had a vanilla and still prefer the float. The 80 R or RL is a great fork and you can easily be extended to 100. It takes removing a spacer and about 15 minutes of your time. You can find them for pretty cheap too. Go to bestbikebuys.com and punch in fox float. The vanilla is a great fork too if you want to stick with springs. I just fell in love with air so I am a little biased. Good luck. There are tons of options. Happy hunting.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I weigh 270 and ride a Minute One with the FIRM spring. I think it’s perfect for me. I get full travel on the bigger hits, but have not felt it bottom yet. Fox forks are nice too. Try them all if you can and decide which gizmos you want and which you don’t care for. It came down to that (features) for me, because the ride quality was decent and comparable on both.

The 2004 Black manual lists an X-Firm spring for Black Elite/Comp 120mm forks for 190lbs and above (the same rating they give the spring for my Minute One Firm spring). The part # for the Black X-Firm Spring is: 85-5855

Here is the Ride Kit table for the 2004 Black manual:


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

*need to know where to buy kits at ?*

Now, where can some of those kits can be purchase ? I looked around on the web annd its mostly overseas...its about like 19.90 each ...so I was wondering which good online store that will sell those kits...

Let me know


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## Speedub.Nate (Dec 31, 2003)

ogre said:


> Now, where can some of those kits can be purchase ? I looked around on the web annd its mostly overseas...its about like 19.90 each ...so I was wondering which good online store that will sell those kits...
> 
> Let me know


Look up a Manitou dealer near you on answerproducts.com. They'll order it and have it to you out in DC in probably less than a week.

I'm late to the party, but pherret, what BiggDaddy was telling you is spot on correct. The RTWD (Rapid Travel Wind Down) Manitou forks, which is what your Elite is (was) ship with a "SOFT" spring as stock. Most other Manitou forks ship with a "MEDIUM", including the 100-80 and 120-100 RTA (Rapid Travel Adjust) Blacks.

In any case, Medium RTWD = Firm and Firm RTWD = X-Firm (more or less).

Anyway, bollocks on Manitou for not 'splaining this better, because I fell into a similar trap in ordering a lighter spring for my wife's RTWD Black Platinum. Only after I visited their tech trailer at a race did the guys make it clear that all RTWD forks ship with these lighter springs which, with the help skinnier booster spring (included and already installed in your fork) get the job done.


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## Flyinturbo (Feb 2, 2004)

*Psylo? Run,as fast as you can...*

.. the other direction. I've ridden with a Psylo SL for the past year on my 5.5" travel Titus SB and had many problems with it. The seals failed 3 different occasions and the lockout adjustment knob failed on me 3 times (I never used it, it would fail by popping out of the fork, spilling the contents all over the place). I finally got fed up with the failures and sent it back to Rock Shox, who assured me that the failures were not typical and they would be warranty fixing/replacing my fork within the week. Imagine my suprise when I received my COD package from Rock Shox for $100!!! Not only that, but the fork just wasn't a very good match for my TALAS rear shock. The fork was what I call a 'flexy-flyer' and would move all around while riding. In a nutshell, i hated the fork.

I sold the Psylo SL, purchased a Shermann firefly last week and couldn't be happier. The new fork actually works as advertised!! My SB feels MUCH more stable, stiff and responsive. I've bombed some pretty major hills so far with notsomuch as a whimper from the front end. The bike now tracks thru corners much better, absorbs big hits with great feedback and no ill effects. Jumps can be accomplished with more control on both take off and landing and I feel good.. which is the most important aspect of this adventure! Do yourself a favor, ditch the idea of a Psylo SL, opt for something that's better able to support you as a rider.

Btw, I am 220 lbs and 5'10"


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

240lbs here... had awesome luck w/ my MX Pro. No HD spring needed as you just up the air in one side. Flawless performance, super stiff, etc....
Buy one now.



Brandon said:


> I have an MX pro, at 225 I'm running at the upper-end of the air assist (low-pressure air). I have a Manitou Xvert-Air that I like on another bike, I had to get a firmer coil (It's an air/coil hybrid setup) that I like and it has huge tire clearance, unfortunately they're no longer available.


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## Jlee197853 (Mar 15, 2004)

*I have a Black Comp*

And I ride with the standard medium spring. I am 220#. I ordered the firm spring kit for it, changed it out and hated it. It was o.k. in the 120mm mode, but way too stiff in 100mm. I don't have RTWD though, so my spring rate changes with travel changes. I called Manitou's customer service because I had a question regarding installing the new spring, and I found them very helpful. Don't give up on the black, it's a great fork. I love mine, and have had zero problems with it.


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## DrGlen51 (Mar 4, 2004)

I've had air shocks and forks on various bikes for 14 years and never had an air problem. In fact I don't understand why more air doesn't leak out.

You ever wonder why your buddy who is 30 pounds lighter than you can race down twisty single track and dust you. Because relative to his weight his fork is stiffer. It doesn't work to just put stiffer springs in the fork. All you get is more travel in your suspension on rougher stuff. YOU WILL STILL HAVE FLIMSY STANCHIONS, that twist on the bumps and turns and make you fell like you are going too fast.

One way to improve a flimsy fork is to find a stiffer straight axle to put through it. This will make both stanchions work stiffer by making a more solid connection between them. The best thing is to find a fork that is a mite heavier or built to do heavier stuff. Since your a Clyde you might want to look at things like forks build for jumping or freeride. These forks are stiffer and stronger, usually. The trouble you will have is most FR (freeride) or Dirt Jumping forks will be built taller for different bike frames. 

So that's how I ended up with FR style frame and front end , but for me it's a cross country bike. I have had several cross country bikes in the past and there is no comparison in ride. The FR bike handles the downhills so much better that the first time my riding buddy and I rode together I smoked him bad on the down hills. I thought I was going to suffer on the uphills, but it hasn't been a noticeable problem even though I am now 5 lbs heavier bikewise. So find a heavy stiff fork with a straight axle and start really riding.


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## Weyvoless (Jan 20, 2004)

Quit screwing around, and just call up Marzocchi. They will sell you a Z-1. It is the most bombproof 5 inch fork on the market, and Marzocchi will put in the X-heavy springs for you before they ship it. It has external preload adjustment. ETA which lowers the travel to 50mm so you can handle the long climbs, and also an air preload. I weigh 230, and have not had to add air yet to the air preload, and I do 5 foot drops all day long on that thing.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Which ZI Fork?*

I'm spending time trying to figure out how to replace my Fuel 90 that busted it's frame on me once (I'm 250 lb) in less than a year and likely to do it again from what I read on this forum.  So I'm looking for a replacement ride before I get stranded in the middle of nowhere with frame break and catastrophic results. I bike long distances into remote areas alone with only a GPS - sort of stupid and drives my wife nuts but I can't find anyone that matches my slightly slower rate for many hours of epic rides, and I enjoy being alone to do whatever I want.

Also, the Manitou Black fork is too weak for me even with the extra firm springs and staying way back on downhills. The fork feels very wobbly to me and caused serious handling issue and crashes on me, including a trip to the ER last year from a 30 MPH tumble with a fork twist on a simple little 4" deep but narrow tire-catching ditch hidden in the grass that caught my tire and threw me down before I knew what happened. I could have bought a new bike with my $1700 deductable on the visit with CAT scans. Since there was nothing to hit in the area, I amazingly didn't break anything, just pulled about every major muscle on every limb, shoulders, stomach, and ribs and left most of my skin in the dirt. I want a good new fork as well. I'll pay whatever it takes to get the right one.

I've been getting lots of good suggestions from this forum and looking recently at the Santa Cruz Heckler. You recommend a Z1 fork, but there's about 10 styles of this fork on the Marzocchi web site (which is a miserable site with no product description I can find). According to Santa Cruz's web site with a standard kit I can get either a Z150 or Z1 FR QR20+. I see the 20 mm axle is recommended for stiffness, and I think the also Z150 comes standard with this. The Heckler can also be configured the Fox Talas, Sherman Firefly and others, but I gather the Z1 is recommend for strengh with my size, even though it's more of a downhill fork. I only need about 4" to 5" of fork travel since I mostly do XC and long steep climbs with occasional mild (<2' drop) technical. I gather the ETA can limit bob on the climbs? 
So specifically which of the Z1 forks would you recommend, and what about any of the other fork options for my XC use with my size. What about the other Marzocchi XC forks (the Z1 is listed as DH) - are they not strong or stiff enough?

Thanks for the advice.


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## Weyvoless (Jan 20, 2004)

The Z-1 I was referring to was the Z-1FR with standard quick release. There is no need for the 20mm thur axle if you are only doing drops up to 5 feet. The same fork may also be listed as the Z-1 ETA. I have a 2004, and the thing is stiff, and super tuneable. Check the reviews on this site. Padre also had a good suggestion.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

Padre said:


> 240lbs here... had awesome luck w/ my MX Pro. No HD spring needed as you just up the air in one side. Flawless performance, super stiff, etc....
> Buy one now.


 Thanks for your suggestions on Frames and Forks. I'm spending a lot of time checking them out on the web. Once I get a list narrowed down a little more it'll be a test at the bike shops. Although there's been good suggestions on bikes such as Tanner and other specialty frames, it's hard to find a local bike shop for them and I won't buy without a test ride. So I'm still debating mostly on the Heckler versus Bullit as you'd suggested.

By your recommendations you seem to have lots of experience with three Mazocchi forks I'm checking out. These are the Z1 FR, Z150 FR, and the MX Pro you mention above. Incidentally, there's three Marzocchi MX Pros: MX Pro AIr, MX Pro Coil, and MX Pro+ETA. For air preload and ETA for climbing stiffness, I suspect you're suggesting the MX Pro+ETA? Other than the MX being more XC than DH (or "Freeride" as Mazocchi puts it), I can't figure out the differences from Mazocchi's very terse product descripton on their web site. http://www.marzocchi.com/spa/mtb/products/choosefork.asp?LN=UK&Sito=mtb&p=1&Y=2004 They say in General Info that XC are not meant to be used on drops from ANY height, even fallen trees. So maybe I want the Z1 or Z150 after all since I see occasional drops and logs up to 2' on singletrack. 
Can you give me a brief overview of the differences before I troll the Reviews?

They also seem to offer an fork in-between DH and XC, the Z1 FR SL versus Z1 FR. Do you know anything about this? 
And what's this odd fender-like structure at the top of the 2004 Z1 forks? I like fenders but I want a real one that extends further and can do a proper job of stoping me from eating mud and and horse pucky.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

If your final call is between the Heckler vs Bullit, you can cross the 4" travel Mx series off your list entirely. As Weyvoless mentioned, the 20mm axle is unneccessary for the riding you've described. The Z1 series is PLENTY stiff w/ w/ the standar Q/R.
My dad at 6' 240lbs has a Heckler w/ a z150. It's portly at 36lbs but climbs great w/ the fork in it's locked down 4" position. Weyvoless' Heckler is shod w/ an 04 Z1FR at 5" of travel. It boasts the cool lock down ETA that locks it down at low but still provides 30mm of travel. You CAN'T go wrong w/ that fork. 
The Fox is a great fork but not so great for the big boys and only has a lock down. Go ahead and buy a Talas but you'll have to mortgage the house a 3rd time.
The fender is a fender. It's kinda kooky unless it will be a relief for you where you live/ride. It's completely removable 
Buy a Bullit/Heckler, put a Z1 on it.
The Z150 is more DH as it's almost 7lbs and 6" of travel. It doesn't seem to fit your riding style. Save 2lbs, $150 bucks and get a Z1, you'll thank me when you're older.
BTW, the Z1SL is an air version of the normal coil Z1. It's mostly for weight weinies and people that have the money and time to afford that hassle. The Z1FR is set, forget, ride, and change the oil once a year, seals every two.



BigLarry said:


> By your recommendations you seem to have lots of experience with three Mazocchi forks I'm checking out. These are the Z1 FR, Z150 FR, and the MX Pro you mention above. Incidentally, there's three Marzocchi MX Pros: MX Pro AIr, MX Pro Coil, and MX Pro+ETA. For air preload and ETA for climbing stiffness, I suspect you're suggesting the MX Pro+ETA? Other than the MX being more XC than DH (or "Freeride" as Mazocchi puts it), I can't figure out the differences from Mazocchi's very terse product descripton on their web site. http://www.marzocchi.com/spa/mtb/products/choosefork.asp?LN=UK&Sito=mtb&p=1&Y=2004 They say in General Info that XC are not meant to be used on drops from ANY height, even fallen trees. So maybe I want the Z1 or Z150 after all since I see occasional drops and logs up to 2' on singletrack.
> And what's this odd fender-like structure at the top of the 2004 Z1 forks? I like fenders but I want a real one that extends further and can do a proper job of stoping me from eating mud and and horse pucky.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Narrowing down to Heckler, Z1FR - Which Components?*

Padre, Thanks for all the recommendations from you and a couple others here. I'm replacing my Fuel 90 mostly due to problems related to my size. This includes less-than-annual Fuel frame breakage, a wobbly front Manitou Black suspension that bucks me on a 4" step even if I'm way back and simple ruts can toss me into an ER, and the Hayes 6" disc brakes that fade out completely on continous decents over 1500', which I do every weekend (after the 3000'-5000' net climbs) and the brake fluid turns black in less than 6 months.

I now and zeroing in on the Heckler and agree the Z1FR is probably the right suspension. My height and weight (and maybe age) are very similar to your dad. I really don't need the full strength and 7" suspension of the Bullit Freeride bike. The 5" suspsension of the Heckler is much more my style. I just hope the frame holds up since it only has a 2 year warrantee versus my Trek Fuel 90's lifetime warrantee. But from this forum, it appears the reality is that the Heckler frame seems to hold up for big guys whereas the Fuel does not, and I don't want to wait for my next psudo-annual Fuel 90 frame break surprise.

On the Marzocchi forks, I finally discovered that I had to download the PDF manual from the Marzochii web site to understand what their forks do relative to each other. It seems that no matter what manual you pick, you get the same all-forks-in-one manual that is fortunately very clear and complete. For example, it clearly explains the min--fender is removable as you said, and that the forks over 30 mm diameter such as the Z1FR (at 32 mm) can take an 8" disc brake. The Z1FR at 130 mm travel is a good balance to the 130 mm rear suspension of the Heckler. The ETA lockout for 2" travel in climbs gets great reviews in the product reviews here, that I've also read through now. The standard Z1FR from Santa Cruz comes with the QR20. There are others here who say it definitely helps stiffness, especially since the Z1 doesn't really have a full solid axle and is weaker than others to begin with (I don't understand technically what they mean yet.). I've also had bad problems with fork stiffness before and prefer to overcompensate rather than undercompensate. Is there any down side to the QR20+?

So now I'm trying to figure out the rest of the components and seek your advice consdering how well you helped already. (I also welcome hearing from others on this forum.) I haven't broken any of the power train or other hardware. I just wear out the chain and cassette (with teeth after 18 months that look like crescents instead of sawtooths). I do get bad annoying creaks from the LX cranks (that I swapped out the Botranger on purchase of the Fuel), but others in the product reviews say that it can be fixed with cleaning of the BB and crank along with lock-tight on approprate screws.

In general for components, I'm looking for 8" rotors now, and perhaps a slight strengthing of the power train. I'm debating on the standard Super X disc kit versus one of the Freeride kits for the Heckler. The Freeride kits seem to add 5 lbs (going from 30 to 35 lbs) - I'm not sure where the weight goes, but it's got to be in the wheels since it's hard to get that much extra weight elsewhere in the cranks and derailier. I'm tempted to go a little stronger since the extra cost isn't that bad and I'm not that sensitive to bike weight. (With 5-6 liters of water and lots of survival gear in the pack, I'm perhaps getting closer to 300 lb. anyway) I find the Saint Kit particularly interesting since it's only $200 more than the Super X kit ($3400 versus $3200 total). I'd get the three chain ring crank instead of the rock guard since I sometimes ride on the road to get to the mountains. My current Shimano LX cranks seem to be very strong (haven't broke yet is proof) and stiff, and the Saint cranks and BB are even stronger. With the Saint kit, I also get very strong wheels and hubs and a Shimano Saint 8" disc brake that got perfect 5.0 ratings from the 4 product reviewers here. I'm thinking the added longetivity and reduced maintenance and repair of the stronger components could easily more than compensate for the small $200 extra cost. 
Also, the Fifth Element shock seems to be a good choice, especially for the Heckler that doesn't have a VPP and as such could use a separate stable platform technology of the Fifth Element (from other reviews I've read in bike magazines). I also read the coil is better than air for handling all the routine small bumps that I'd be seeing in the XC riding that's the majority of what I do. I don't get what the Titanium spring does other than add lots of cost and save a couple ounces. 
Let me know what you think of component kits and rear shocks.

So I'll be visting bike shops over the next month to try out some of the theory and make real comparisons. Marzocchi will have their new fork line available in about a month and I'll probably wait about that long to make a deposit (if my Fuel 90 doesn't fail me before then). I've already started clearing it with my wife who's generally OK with the $3K bike if it means I'll get back from my long trips to nowhere in one piece to continue making more money for her and the 3 kids. It helps that I drive an old Taurus Wagon instead of expensive luxury cars and prefer to spend my time having fun biking. It'll probably also cost me a family vacation to Hawaii, which is probably why she's so agreeable - it's leverage in her mind.

I'm afraid I'm already older (approaching 50) and will thank you now.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Keep it real, Larry! My dad is 62 and riding hard!
There is no downside to the QR20, it just takes another 120 seconds to remove the wheel. Uber-stiff.
For brakes, I would never choose hydro's. Don't want the headache.
I use 8" A_vid Mechanicals on all my rides as does Weyvoless.
I had great luck w/ LX cranks. I've had XT cranks on my Bullit for 3 years!
I hear great stuff about the RF Diabolus too.
I think the Saint stuff would be an overkill, and pricey.
FYI, my dad runs a 10degree by 70mm stem and he likes it a bit tight. That should give you some good place to start when looking at stems/set-ups, etc..
Good luck.
Padre


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

Padre said:


> Keep it real, Larry! My dad is 62 and riding hard!
> There is no downside to the QR20, it just takes another 120 seconds to remove the wheel. Uber-stiff.
> For brakes, I would never choose hydro's. Don't want the headache.
> I use 8" A_vid Mechanicals on all my rides as does Weyvoless.
> ...


I'll take your dad as a role model for me in the decade to come. 
I'll have to check out the Q20 at the bike shop, but I don't think a little extra time for a occasional wheel removal is bad since I'm not doing any racing. 
I was thinking hard about getting rid of the unreliable hydro disc brakes, as the hydro fluid just causes severe brake fade and turns black on me with expensive repairs every six to nine months. (At my weight, it's like only using one brake for a normal size rider.) But in my brief scan of the mechanical discs, they appear to take a lot more hand force (important on my long decents) and aren't as nice on modulation. Maybe going from 6" to 8" rotors helps the mechanicals a lot, but maybe it also helps my thermal problem with the hydros. The Saint also has two pistons per pad that I read helps a lot on the thermal. 
The RaceFace Diabolus cranks look interesting with great reviews. I'll check them out more.
As for being pricey, I was surprised myself the Saint kit was only $200 more, and a lot of this cost and weight may be in the beefed up wheels. But it's definitely overkill. My thinking is that I could save the cost back in just replacement costs over the next few years and have added security. But do I really need it or the beefed up wheels at all - especially enough to justify the small cost and extra weight? The Bontrager wheels and Shimano LX/XT drive train are the only things that haven't broke so far in 2 years on my Fuel 90, so maybe standard is fine. I'll have to sort it out in the bike shops over the next month. 
Also, if I get overkill components and nothing breaks then how can a justify my next bike with all the great new technology 5-10 years from now? Maybe I'll just have to be decedant and buy it anyway. 
You didn't mention anything about rear shocks. What do you use?

Thanks for the recommendations. 
-Larry


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

BigLarry said:


> Maybe going from 6" to 8" rotors helps the mechanicals a lot, but maybe it also helps my thermal problem with the hydros. The Saint also has two pistons per pad that I read helps a lot on the thermal.
> The RaceFace Diabolus cranks look interesting with great reviews. I'll check them out more.
> You didn't mention anything about rear shocks. What do you use?
> Thanks for the recommendations.
> -Larry


Going from 6" to 8" rotors is like going from v's to disc. Not quite as large of a jump, but big. The bigger rotors are a dream. Riding the lift all day at the ski resort, my hands never get weary from pulling cable..
The saint brakes are good, but I hate messing w/ fluid. 
My personal Bullit had a Fox RC for a few years, now I have a Romic. The Romic pedals the pants off the Fox but doesn't have quite the reliability as the Fox. The 5th Element usually comes standard on all new Bullits/Hecklers and seems to be a great counterpart to the Romic and needs rebuilding at least once a year if you ride alot. 
Regarding wheels, don't avoid burlier wheels. Perhaps, the saint kit would be a great value. It's can't hurt.


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## skinnyhippy (Jun 29, 2004)

*don't even think about rs...*



pherret said:


> I am trying to purchase a new fork, but need opinions regarding the externally adjustable forks like the psylo.
> 
> I called manitou and asked their tech guy if they made extra firm springs. he said yes but you have to get it from our vendors, so I order the fork. When I tried to order the springs, they aren't being made. Call Manitou back and they say they don't have x-firm spring kits. So now I have to eat the shipping charges to send the fork back and learned never to order manitou because they can't take the time to take their heads out of their a$$e$ to see if they have x-firm spring kits for customers.
> 
> ...


Just find the correct marzocchi for your application, and be happy as a clam at high tide. Clydesdales have issues with some stuff for a reason, most of it's built for skinny lil' cutie pies that have never weighed over 150 in their entire life. Marzocchi builds durable, quality, relatively affordable forks that kick the crap out of all the other stuff.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Hey Larry,
Here is the mothership...aka my dad's Heckler.
Built tough and sturdy at almost 37lbs in size XL.
Pedals great and lacks nothing...


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

Padre said:


> Hey Larry,
> Here is the mothership...aka my dad's Heckler.
> Built tough and sturdy at almost 37lbs in size XL.
> Pedals great and lacks nothing...


 Looks nice. I was always wondering if the rear shock prevented a water bottle - the first time I've seen a water bottle cage on the Heckler. (Need some place for the Gatorade') What component kit does he have on it? Looks like 6" rotors. Is that the Marz Z150 fork?

I've realized the Heckler total weight is not much different than the Fuel at just under 27lbs for a Super X disc setup and light weight shocks. So how much beefier is the frame really? Is it heavier than normal frames? How many miles does this frame have on it without breaking? I read the new 2005 Heckler is coming out with another inch of rear travel (~5.7" if rumors are real). So perhaps the Bullit may be a more solid choice with some beef on the frame, even though the travel is bigger than I need or want. The travel won't be much more than the Heckler after all.

I've been reading the forums and hear some SC frames have problems with the bushings wearing quickly. Is this just the VPP or does this single pivot design also have a problem with bushing wear? Also read the Hecker pivot design has lots of lateral frame flex, especially for large riders. Do or your dad you notice this issue? Final nasty rumor is that the paint falls off easily, but the newer trans-paints (red or blue) do better. Any truth to these allegations?

I was at a bike shop today but they didn't have any Hecklers in stock, just some Blurs. So I'll keep looking until I find one I can test ride. The owner also suggested mechanical discs instead of Hydraulics, especially after hearing how I smoke and burn the Hayes that he thought was indestructible. He thought the Marz Z1FR was indeed a perfect fork choice along with the 5th Element coil on the back. He agreed this bike and setup sounded perfect for the type of riding I was doing with fantastic climb and smooth riding - much better and stronger than the Trek Fuel that he also sells. But he was somehow very surprised I broke the Fuel frame in 9 months. He also thought the Freeride kits were way overkill for me. But then, don't they make money on replacement parts.

I've been reading horrible things about Santa Cruz delivery delays due to popularity, which the bike shop owner also confirmed. Takes months to get bikes and only some of the parts are what's specified in the kit. All come separate in a box that he has to assemble. 
I'm thinking since my Trek frame is still in one piece I can take my time and wait a month or so until the new year models come out before ordering (and then another two to four month wait for delivery from SC).

Anyway, thanks for the nice picture and advice.


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## peachy-B (Aug 10, 2004)

If you are going to be mounting as 8" rotor on that fork you will NEED that 20mm. Get the QR20... that's a no brainer. Shops here don't even install 8" rotors on regular skewers... not stiff enough. 

Z1 FR w/ the 20 mm axle. ETA? don't expect that to last too long. Mine lasted a whopping 3 mons max. the cartridge to fix/replace it is expensive. warranty took care of it once... the next time it happened I didn't bother fixing it... i just shift my weight a little forward if i really need to. 

200+ extra for Saint... I would get it. If you're not a weight-weeny get the piece of mind. you'll still screw the gears but you'll probably not break anything else. the bottom bracket will be UBER-stiff as well. 

I would not touch mechanical brakes. HYDRO! less maintenace for me. Use a good quality brake fluid w/ high tempt capability if u need to. Top of the line hydro? HOPE... pricey but very good.


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## pherret (Feb 18, 2004)

Sweet frame. I am looking at a heckler myself to eventually replace a dakar pro. How tall is your dad and what is his inseam? I am debating between a large or xlarge. I am 6'2" with a 35inseam. Probably going to wait and see if the make any mods in 05. 

I tried the manitou and it sucks. I like the all travel but the rebound has to be turned up all the way. Good thing I changed the oil to 15 weight or I would be complaining about the rebound. If only they had a firmer spring and preload. I will be getting another Marzocchi. Any opinions on 100 or 130 for a jamis komodo? 

At least I have tried the big 3 now and have my own opinion. So far my pick would be Marzocchi first, RS second and manitou 3rd. I eventually want to try a fox but it doesn't sound like a good match for a clydsedale. 

Guess I will see if anyone will buy a black elite on ebay with 10mi on it


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Hi Larry,
I believe only the XL size accomodates the bottle cage.
The component kit is random using an LX crankset, cheap Hayes hydros (hyro's suck, mention that? he's getting Avid mech's soon)
Yes, the fork is the Z150.
The frame is solid and no rear frame flex is noticed. Regarding bushings, the bushings in my 2001 Bullit are stock.
If you are worried about paint, which does not seem to chip or wear more than normal, get an anodized color.
My dad waited 1 month for his frame.



BigLarry said:


> Looks nice. I was always wondering if the rear shock prevented a water bottle - the first time I've seen a water bottle cage on the Heckler. (Need some place for the Gatorade') What component kit does he have on it? Looks like 6" rotors. Is that the Marz Z150 fork?
> 
> I've realized the Heckler total weight is not much different than the Fuel at just under 27lbs for a Super X disc setup and light weight shocks. So how much beefier is the frame really? Is it heavier than normal frames? How many miles does this frame have on it without breaking? I read the new 2005 Heckler is coming out with another inch of rear travel (~5.7" if rumors are real). So perhaps the Bullit may be a more solid choice with some beef on the frame, even though the travel is bigger than I need or want. The travel won't be much more than the Heckler after all.
> 
> I've been reading the forums and hear some SC frames have problems with the bushings wearing quickly. Is this just the VPP or does this single pivot design also have a problem with bushing wear? Also read the Hecker pivot design has lots of lateral frame flex, especially for large riders. Do or your dad you notice this issue? Final nasty rumor is that the paint falls off easily, but the newer trans-paints (red or blue) do better. Any truth to these allegations?


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

peachy-B said:


> If you are going to be mounting as 8" rotor on that fork you will NEED that 20mm. Get the QR20... that's a no brainer. Shops here don't even install 8" rotors on regular skewers... not stiff enough.


Hmmm... that's funny, my little tiny 14mm axle on my Z1QR is just fine w/ an 8" rotor that it's had for a year an 1 1/2. Marz didn't like the original Z1's using it, but it's not an issue anymore w/ the huge 32mm stanchions and big lawyer tabs. My shop sold me the rotor and set it up for me. PLENTY STIFF. 











peachy-B said:


> Z1 FR w/ the 20 mm axle. ETA? don't expect that to last too long. Mine lasted a whopping 3 mons max. the cartridge to fix/replace it is expensive. warranty took care of it once... the next time it happened I didn't bother fixing it... i just shift my weight a little forward if i really need to.


Hmmm... that's funny, my ETA lever on my 2001 Z1 never failed and my current 03 Z1 has been flawless too so far.



peachy-B said:


> I would not touch mechanical brakes. HYDRO! less maintenace for me. Use a good quality brake fluid w/ high tempt capability if u need to. Top of the line hydro? HOPE... pricey but very good.


Alright, now you've gone too far. Just because you spend $250 per wheel on brakes doesn't mean you stop 75% better. Mechs are less headache, less mess, and they don't leak or fade.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

My dad is 6' tall w/ a 32" inseam. Long arms I guess. Had a L superlight and hated it.
Go w/ an xlarge for sure.
For a komodo which is a hardtail I believe, I personally would stick w/ a 100mm fork.
Go ahead and place R_ock Sux at the bottom of the list. Remove M_anitou completely. Leave Marz up front and bring Fox up to second. They do offer good spring kits for big dudes but I've seen better satisfaction w/ the Marz.
Here's some good proof. This is a buddy who definately qualifies as a clyde, and then some. He LOVES his F_ox Vanilla w/ the hd springs and has had good luck w/ it.











pherret said:


> Sweet frame. I am looking at a heckler myself to eventually replace a dakar pro. How tall is your dad and what is his inseam? I am debating between a large or xlarge. I am 6'2" with a 35inseam. Probably going to wait and see if the make any mods in 05. I tried the manitou and it sucks. I like the all travel but the rebound has to be turned up all the way. Good thing I changed the oil to 15 weight or I would be complaining about the rebound. If only they had a firmer spring and preload. I will be getting another Marz_occhi. Any opinions on 100 or 130 for a j_amis komodo?
> At least I have tried the big 3 now and have my own opinion. So far my pick would be Marz_occhi first, RS second and manitou 3rd. I eventually want to try a f_ox but it doesn't sound like a good match for a clydsedale.


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## peachy-B (Aug 10, 2004)

I forgot to mention that my Z1 was the model before they went w/ the larger 32 mm stanchions... even so if if i weight 250+ and will be using a single crown i would be using the 20mm axle. plenty stiff? well myb if u used the 20mm you would be saying INCREDIBLY STIFF. eh? 

And there's no disadvantage. Takes a few more mins to remove the wheel? Who cares. He's buying new wheels anyways... so he doesn't have to spend the extra in buying a new hub. Worth the upgrade.

ETA: That I don't know... lemon? twice? And it's not just me who have had this happen to them.

No, spending $250 will not make u stop 75% better. who said that? I personally use Hayes and have had zero problems w/ them. 8" front and 6" back. No fading (or myb I'm just not sensitive to it?) and no leaking... not in 3-4 yrs I had these. Riding Whistler the whole day w/o any noticeable fading by me... and I brake a lot. 

I have read some people raving about mech disc but i will not use/be buying another. I have one in front of my XC bike. There's no comparison... i will go hydrolic everytime. Many will say less maintenance, no leak...... yeah but you have cable stretching, housing rubbing poorly (dirt inside)... the same maintenance as the V-brakes. Transfer of braking energy isn't as efficient = hands getting tired on long descents. Plus my own personal experience on hydros, no leaking, no mess, no fading. No competition. 

BTW, my hydro definitely and w/o any doubt offers more braking power than my mechanical. 

If you don't know how to change the fluid then yes u will have a mess. I guess the same way if you don't know how to cut the cable properly as well... u'll get fraying at the cut end that will poke your finger.

Recently I had the chance to ride one w/ the Hope mono 6 Ti and the feel on the lever is just noticeably better.... sure made the feel on my Hayes cheap. I didn't say it would stop better... myb it could w/ the larger surface area of the 6 piston pads. But the FEEL (modulation) was definitely superior. It's like driving a BMW and a Chevy.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Finding Heckler at LBS is like Twilight Zone*

Padra and peachy-B. Thanks for the second opinions. I'm going to repost the discussion below on the Santa Cruz vendor message board to see if it does any good.

I've been to a couple Bike Shops now looking for the Heckler. They seem to keep Blurs in stock, but no Hecklers or Bullits, which are special order with a month or two delay. As such, it's impossible to get a test ride. I'm wondering if the Blur rides similar enough to get a feeling of what the Heckler may do.

I'm finding I'm getting no help from the Santa Cruz dealers. At the latest bike shop, the mechanic owns a Heckler and often brings it in, but not today. He might bring it in for a test ride for me if he's in a good mood some day. Nevertheless, here's a near verbatum snippit of my conversation with him that leaves me wondering how bike shops stay in business. I'm protecting their name in case I'm forced to deal with them since there's so few Santa Cruz bike dealers. Believe it or not, the conversation was even more distorted than I can properly do justice in this reconstruction.

Me: I thinking about purchasing a Hecker
LBS: No you're not. 
Me: Huh, I'm saying I think the Heckler may be what I want
LBS: No it's not. But I can get you another bike. 
Me: But will it fit my needs. 
LBS: Sure it can, I can get you a nice really super low weight race bike
Me: Look at my fat ass. Do I look like I race? I'd break a light bike like a pretzel as I did with my Fuel 90. 
LBS: Breaking a frame is nothing to be proud of. tisk, tisk, tisk. Why are you telling me that? 
Me: Because it's why I need a stronger bike. 
LBS: Really? Nobody breaks frames.
Me: I do. Big guys do. Think of it proportional to weight, like with your skinny ass on a 15 lb bike. You'd break it in no time. 
LBS: Hmmm. So I can build up a 50 lb bike you can jump off anything. 
Me: No, I don't do DH either, I do XC. I think I should be able to get a strong enough bike at 35 lbs or so with one of the Heckler Freeride packages.
LBS: Hey, noone uses "Freeride" anymore, it's so lame and you're out of touch.
Me: Well, I'm referring to what Santa Cruz currently labels their beefier packages. What do you call it?
LBS: We call it "trail" bikes these days. 
Me: So can you help me with the Heckler or perhaps a Ventana?
LBS: We don't really sell Ventanas
Me: But your listed as one of the only two dealers in the entire Bay Area on Ventana's web site.
LBS: Yeah right. OK, if you know exactly what you want, I'll order the frame for you but that's it.
Me: So what about the Heckler, how can I find out more about it.
LBS: You know, I'm really suspicious of people who break frames. I think you should go to another bike shop and get another bike. Talk to Lars at the bike shop up the road (and he gives me directions) . He's a big guy racer and can help you better and sell you a Specialized or some other bike.
Me: I thank him and leave shaking my head. I just want to get out of there.

So my hope to find a Santa Cruz Heckler is still on going. There's still one more shop in my area I can try.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

What a bummer. I HATE those experiences.
FYI the Blur is nothing like the Heckler. 1st of all the progressive feel of the air shock is night and day to the linear coil on the Heckler/Bullit.
The Blur is a race/xc bike with steeper geometery and quick handling. The Heckler and Bullit are wide open trail all day bikes, IMHO.
Another FYI, my dad first purchased a Superlight. Had it for 9 months. Hated the too-quick handling, steep geometry....offed it on ebay and got the Heckler. He's in love now.
It's a win win. the Ventana is just more money for the same single pivot design. 
My buddies have had awesome experiences buying via the internet w/ Speedgoat.
www.speedgoat.com
The Bullit is 620 grams heavier than the Heckler. If you aren't going for the checkered flag that might be the ticket. If you are climbing 60% of your ride and want a little steeper of a headangle..Go Heckler. They seem to have plenty in stock..
here's another insight between the two... .
the bullit is plusher and has the more 'quality' travel. 
the bullit has the longer swingarm length with its higher foward pivot, ie more rearward wheelpath which contributes to a plusher feel. the heckler feels "tighter..."



BigLarry said:


> I've been to a couple Bike Shops now looking for the Heckler. They seem to keep Blurs in stock, but no Hecklers or Bullits, which are special order with a month or two delay. As such, it's impossible to get a test ride. I'm wondering if the Blur rides similar enough to get a feeling of what the Heckler may do.
> I'm finding I'm getting no help from the Santa Cruz dealers. At the latest bike shop, the mechanic owns a Heckler and often brings it in, but not today. He might bring it in for a test ride for me if he's in a good mood some day. Nevertheless, here's a near verbatum snippit of my conversation with him that leaves me wondering how bike shops stay in business. I'm protecting their name in case I'm forced to deal with them since there's so few Santa Cruz bike dealers. Believe it or not, the conversation was even more distorted than I can properly do justice in this reconstruction.


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## peachy-B (Aug 10, 2004)

Don't buy anything there man. people like that shouldn't get any of our hard earned dollars. go somewhere else that would appreciate your business. Imagine going back there for some maintenance or warranty work?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Larry,

I know it is a bit of drive, but you might check out Encina Bike in Walnut Creek. They are a Santa Cruz Dealer and really great guys. Also, some of their mechanics are Clyde's so they understand the idea of being more than 150 pound rider.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Finding some leads to Heckler*



peachy-B said:


> Don't buy anything there man. people like that shouldn't get any of our hard earned dollars. go somewhere else that would appreciate your business. Imagine going back there for some maintenance or warranty work?


 From djkellycx on the Santa Cruz Bike forum I was given a lead to a couple of shops in the San Jose area that are actually interested in sales (unlike the Los Gatos shop above) that are likely to have lots bikes.
I also found others that can order if need be. So I'm not likely to ever set foot in Crossroads Cyclery in Los Gatos again.

-Larry


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

Padre said:


> What a bummer. I HATE those experiences.
> FYI the Blur is nothing like the Heckler. 1st of all the progressive feel of the air shock is night and day to the linear coil on the Heckler/Bullit.
> The Blur is a race/xc bike with steeper geometery and quick handling. The Heckler and Bullit are wide open trail all day bikes, IMHO.
> Another FYI, my dad first purchased a Superlight. Had it for 9 months. Hated the too-quick handling, steep geometry....offed it on ebay and got the Heckler. He's in love now.
> ...


 I would go for the extra weight of the Bullit frame but frankly worry about too much travel and soft feel. I climbed up the mountain with someone I met at Soquel Demonstration Forest a few months ago that ended up lettimg me try out his Santa Cruz bike. I don't exactly remember the model but it was about 7" travel and he was gushing about potentially upgrading to the new VP Free, so it must have been the Bullit. He said he was 220 and had stiff springs, but when I got on the bike I felt very odd, like I was sinking way down low into a soft hammack or giant air pillow. In trying to go over an easy 2' ramped log stack that I just did with my Fuel 90, I instead bottomed out with the soft suspension and came to a halt at the top. Maybe it didn't have enough spring for my weight, and maybe I didn't give it enough momentum to make it over the top, or know how to work with the soft suspeension. But it was a very unnerving feeling to not be connected with the trail at all and floating in air. In fact, my biggest worry is that the Heckler may be too soft and drive me nuts. This is perhaps one of the many reasons I think the Heckler is better for me than the Bullit. Your description makes is also confirming my feeling I'd like the Heckler more. 
Incidentally, the Bullit rider was climbing just fine, we climbed together for miles and over 1500'. He was one of the few people that climb as slow as me (at my weight), but I noted his bike was not bobbing at all and seemed pretty efficient. So I was very surprised when I felt how "soft" the bike was when I sat on it.

In California's steep mountains, if you're not going steep down, you're going steep up. (I find my GPS altimeter much more useful than distance to tell how far I've gone and how much effort is left to go.) So 50% of my riding is climbing by distance, almost by definition, but over 75% of my riding is uphill by time.

Your dad worked better with the XL frame at 6' and 32" inseam. I am also a tad over 6' and wear 32" inseam pants. But when I am thinner I wear 35" inseam when my pants came up higher. I indeed have long legs and arms that well beyond the norm. Do you think I should also get an XL? The SC charts show me smack in the middle of the L frame by height alone.

The Ventana is supposed to have more stiffness than the Heckler, which I might like better. But it is very hard to find and I really don't want to plunk down $3K without a test ride first for fit and feel.

-Larry
PS. My wife just walked in just now and said if I wanted the $3K bike, she understood and it was no problem.  She even suggested we plan a family trip this weekend to visit the LBS in Santa Cruz that djkellycx on the Santa Cruz Bike forum said had 100-200 Santa Cruz bikes on the show floor.  Ahhh, the understanding wife I love who knows how to get me excited.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Just rode Demo in April on my Bullit. Did fine and loved it.
You are obviously more XC oriented.
Please go Heckler.
My 2 bikes are a 29er SS and the Bullit.
Coming off the hardtail I've never thought the Bullit or the Heckler sloppy in the rear flex.
Go XL. You'd only regret it if'n you were doing big drops etc.
Ventana to me, spells chi chi, not funtion as much. Just my $.02.



BigLarry said:


> I would go for the extra weight of the Bullit frame but frankly worry about too much travel and soft feel. I climbed up the mountain with someone I met at Soquel Demonstration Forest a few months ago that ended up lettimg me try out his Santa Cruz bike. I don't exactly remember the model but it was about 7" travel and he was gushing about potentially upgrading to the new VP Free, so it must have been the Bullit. He said he was 220 and had stiff springs, but when I got on the bike I felt very odd, like I was sinking way down low into a soft hammack or giant air pillow. In trying to go over an easy 2' ramped log stack that I just did with my Fuel 90, I instead bottomed out with the soft suspension and came to a halt at the top. Maybe it didn't have enough spring for my weight, and maybe I didn't give it enough momentum to make it over the top, or know how to work with the soft suspeension. But it was a very unnerving feeling to not be connected with the trail at all and floating in air. In fact, my biggest worry is that the Heckler may be too soft and drive me nuts. This is perhaps one of the many reasons I think the Heckler is better for me than the Bullit. Your description makes is also confirming my feeling I'd like the Heckler more.
> Incidentally, the Bullit rider was climbing just fine, we climbed together for miles and over 1500'. He was one of the few people that climb as slow as me (at my weight), but I noted his bike was not bobbing at all and seemed pretty efficient. So I was very surprised when I felt how "soft" the bike was when I sat on it.
> 
> In California's steep mountains, if you're not going steep down, you're going steep up. (I find my GPS altimeter much more useful than distance to tell how far I've gone and how much effort is left to go.) So 50% of my riding is climbing by distance, almost by definition, but over 75% of my riding is uphill by time.
> ...


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

Padre said:


> Just rode Demo in April on my Bullit. Did fine and loved it.
> You are obviously more XC oriented.
> Please go Heckler.
> My 2 bikes are a 29er SS and the Bullit.
> ...


 I've only done SDF (or Demo) a few times when I didn't have 5-6 hours for my typical longer (35+ mile, 5000' net climb) trip alone into no-mans-land where I rarely see anyone the entire trip over multiple mountains. It's quite a difference at SDL seeing lots of mountain bikers, but then that's sort of fun - like meeting with the guy who let me try his Bullit and lots of nice interesting bikers. I once filled up water bottles out of my 5 liter CamelBack (overkilll for SDL) for a couple of stupid kids that didn't bring hardly anything and horribly thirsty. I've done all three main loops and find them fun and challenging without being dangerous. I did about 1/3 of the stunts on Braille but took the bail-out on the rest as I didn't trust my bike setup. With a Heckler I might be inclined to do many more stunts or all of them, especially since I never crashed which indicated I was running too safe. (The Bullit rider I met had put on body armor for the way down - hmm.)

Again thanks for the all your advice. I very much appreciate it and it's helping me a lot.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Heckler Found for Demo - Thumbs Up!*



Padre said:


> Just rode Demo in April on my Bullit. Did fine and loved it.
> You are obviously more XC oriented.
> Please go Heckler.
> My 2 bikes are a 29er SS and the Bullit.
> ...


 I found both bike shop recommendations of djkellycx to be superb (Reed Sports in San Jose and Family Cyclery in Santa Cruz). The mechanics at both shops were VERY helpful (they were antonyms to the Los Gatos store) and spent an hour giving detailed expert technical advice. (I'm posting more details at the Santa Cruz Forum in response to djkellycx)

The Family Cyclery in Santa Cruz that I went to this weekend was a Santa Cruz bike mecha. They had lots of Santa Cruz bikes and frames, with about 5-6 Hecklers built up for sale and another dozen or so Heckler frames on the ceiling. Best of all they had another couple demo Hecklers that could even be rented.   One of them was a Large that I checked out in the the surrounding (flat) neighborhood.

I quickly decided the Large Heckler frame was too small for me at just over 6' but with long arms and legs, and the XL was indeed the right size. They put some swept back angle dual crown fork on the front of the Heckler, designed for serious DH. For my weight, they pumped up the air (no coil) Fifth Element but it had a broken seal and could only get 180 before the air would leak out fast with the pump still on the bike whereas he was trying for about 250 lb (not sure if I got it right). The salesman/mechanic said about 20-30% of the Fifth Elements come back in just a few short weeks with busted seals and parts such as I saw. He said at my size I should steer away from Fifth Element reliabilty/strength issues. As such, the rear sag was over 1.5" by my estimate, whereas I was told the recommended sag is only 5/8". So it was still a bit soft for me - which I tried to take into account. Since I was at the flat area near the beach and couldn't find anything to climb, I checked for bobing by holding the brakes lightly as needed to pedal very hard in the lowest speed (1,1) gear. The only small bobbing appeared to come from the front fork, and if I sat off the back of the bike, it was damm near solid as a hard tail, even with he softer rear shock setting.

I found the Heckler was very responsive and could easly turn around at moderate speed in less than the two car open parking space in a lot (without sliding or Trial type stunts). If any lateral play existed in the frame, I wasn't good enough to feel it in sharp turns. I tried going off and up curbs (3-4"?) and over the parking lot tire stops (another inch or so). At first, I was used to my Trek Fuel's Manitou Black shocks, even with extra firm springs, that nose dive and bucking me off on these smaller size obstructions. So to start I was offloading and pre-bouncng up these small obstacles. Then I gradually used less and less front pull-up and finally just rode over them sitting down like they weren't even there! Going for skin rash, I even took them without any front off loading at 45 degree angles and again no effect!

I also found the frame was quite firm. In fact, my butt hurt from the crummy seat on the bike (and I had regular non-padded pants) after just 30 minutes of playing around. I tested for lateral flex by trying to push the frame sideways at the seat post hard with my hand while holding the handlebar stem. But the only lateral flex I saw (1/4" maybe) was from the rubber tires. Trying to understand the lateral flex Ventana bikers condem on the Hecker, I held the bike on it's side at 45 degrees and put most my weight on the XT crank arm. Again, the only flex I saw was about 1/2" of bending of the crank arm relative to the bottom bracket (which I limited because of the nervous look of the sales guy) but nothing observable in lateral flex the frame. I don't think the Ventana were exaggerating, but I could have a newer model with bigger bushing, or not doing the same test they suggest in the same way. But I thought my tight turn riding and sideways crank pressure tests were appropriate tests for real conditions and I couldn't perceive any effect whatsoever of lateral play.

So it was not a perfect test due to imperfect fit of frame and parts, as best to be expected. But from my tests, I'd say the Heckler is definiately a thumbs up for my riding style. I'm going to order an XL Heckler soon.

I still need to check out the components. I worry about the Fifth Element unreliability (also widely reported by the product forums here) and need to decide on other rear shocks. The mechanic suggested the Fox DHX5 or Vanilla RLC. But they seem to be so new I can't find them anywhere on this product site and only snippents on the web, even though he pulled them out and showed them to me in his shop. The DHX5 looks and has specs like a 5th Element clone but done right. 
As for the drive train and other components, I get mixed opinions on going to the Saint Freeride Kit for greater strength with my weight. I figure if I don't break parts over the next several years, it's a bargain. Some say it's overkill (which is true) but the added cost is low ($200) and others say that's a good reason to just go ahead and get it. There's not much downside other than the extra 5 lbs of any freeride system and the added hassle of removing the wheels around the axle mounted rear derailleur and big axles. But then if as usual for me, I put extra thick thornproof tubes in the Kevlar tires, the wheels may never need to come off the bike. [However I did blow out this bullet resistant tire combination a few months ago when going steep long downhill with my large weight and clincher brakes on my commuter bike while my Fuel 90 was having it's broken frame replaced. The rims turned red and then white hot, then the tire rubber tire bubbled up and had what looked like sweat on them. Then finally the inner tube rotated and broke off at the stem. I let the wheels cool down for a while so I could touch them, then put in a spare inner tube. This happened AGAIN a week later on my second trip down the mountain. But then I got my bike back with disc brakes and only had problems with burning out the hydraulic fluid and complete fade out to the point my bike moves freely with both brakes held tight until the brakes cool down over a few minutes! I now stop on downhills periodically for brake cooling.]


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

It sounds like you found a good shop to deal with that is honest. Don't know if you could get better pricing elswhere, but even if it cost 10% more there, the service sounds like it will be worth every penny and more. A couple of thoughts:

1) You may want to go to 180 mm front and rear rotors to help eliminate problems with your brakes. The larger rotors will have a greater cooling area and be less likely to overheat. 

2) I think the saint kit is overkill for your type of riding. You are clyde at 250, not a superclyde.

3) One more thought. You are currrently riding a bike that is designed for a lightweight cross country rider. This is the primary reason you are breaking parts. I would aim more toward the 30-32 pound range than the heavy range on the Heckler. For the riding you are doing, it would be nice to have a bike that is not a complete tank. I think if you build the bike with LX/XT, good wheels, and a good fork, you will stop breaking things. Also, you might consider one of the new fox vanilla 130mm forks, which is lighter than the Marzochii and very stiff and strong.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*New Reliable Components relevant to Clydesdales*



CDMC said:


> It sounds like you found a good shop to deal with that is honest. Don't know if you could get better pricing elswhere, but even if it cost 10% more there, the service sounds like it will be worth every penny and more. A couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) You may want to go to 180 mm front and rear rotors to help eliminate problems with your brakes. The larger rotors will have a greater cooling area and be less likely to overheat.
> 
> ...


 My selection criterial for a bike shop will be similar to other components, with price only one of the smaller factors compared to reliability, strength, and ease of use.

I go out long distances alone and just wish I could find bullet-proof highly reliable versions of frame and all components, which could also ultimately save costs in replacement as well as provide safety. But bikes have become advanced (complicated)and break down easily these days - especially the shocks and especially for Clydesdales.

Saint may be overkill (I haven't broke my LX cranks yet), but having less things to worry about is a blessing. My bike shop mechanic/salesman told me Shimano's coming out with a new "Hone" line. It's between Saint and XT in strength, but priced lower, along the lines of LX.  May be perfect for Clydesdales. Due out for '05 which means real soon. 
http://www.bikemagic.com/news/article.asp?UAN=3722&SP=332735592662344184240&v=1

The new Fox DHX5 may be a good substitute for the Fifth Element Coil that seems to have serious reliability problems. I just saw one in a bike shop and it looks much like a clone of the Fifth Element in all ways. From what I read, Fox has had much better reliabilty in general.

There's no doubt I want 8" rotors - dual pistons per rotor and good heat sinking too. The question for me still is mechanical versus hydraulic. I like hydraulic feel and they may not be that much more maintainance if I get 8" rotors so my fluid doesn't turn black every 6 months.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

BigLarry said:


> The new Fox DHX5 may be a good substitute for the Fifth Element Coil that seems to have serious reliability problems. I just saw one in a bike shop and it looks much like a clone of the Fifth Element in all ways. From what I read, Fox has had much better reliabilty in general.
> There's no doubt I want 8" rotors - dual pistons per rotor and good heat sinking too. The question for me still is mechanical versus hydraulic. I like hydraulic feel and they may not be that much more maintainance if I get 8" rotors so my fluid doesn't turn black every 6 months.


The new Fox DHX5 will be out soon. Get it. That would be a good call.
FYI, I did a 12 hour downhill race on Saturday using an 8" Avid Mech up front and a 6" out back (can't fit an 8"). Never once needed more power or "modulation."
The wife rode the same set up and had the same pleasant experience.
Hydro's are good, but I don't think they are great enough to offset the headache of set up, bleeding, etc. Avid's are a part you set, forget. They are the Thomson of the brake world.


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## Cannon_Fodder (Aug 18, 2004)

lol BIGLARY I am going through the same thing I cracked my frame and am looking for a new bike .I have had the same problem with brakes, first 8 inch rotors took care of my problem with heat (hayes brakes) I also had bad luck at bike shops till I found a perty good one I was also recomened the Heckler but woried I would break it I called Santa Cruz and told them what I was doing and they said the Heckler ,bullit and the vpfree all would hold my weight no problem it all depends what you like to do go up hill or go down hill (I like going down but I live in SO CAL so I have to clime before I go down) so I am looking at the bullit or the vpfree.I am looking at the Z150 FR I live 4 miles from Marzocchi

.


BigLarry said:


> Padra and peachy-B. Thanks for the second opinions. I'm going to repost the discussion below on the Santa Cruz vendor message board to see if it does any good.
> 
> I've been to a couple Bike Shops now looking for the Heckler. They seem to keep Blurs in stock, but no Hecklers or Bullits, which are special order with a month or two delay. As such, it's impossible to get a test ride. I'm wondering if the Blur rides similar enough to get a feeling of what the Heckler may do.
> 
> ...


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Cannon_Fodder said:


> I live 4 miles from Marzocchi.


Which means that you're about four and a half miles from Answer / Manitou...


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## Cannon_Fodder (Aug 18, 2004)

Thats right, I drive by them on the way to work.The shop that I work at use to be a half mile from them untill we moved and now its far about 2 miles away from work.


jeffj said:


> Which means that you're about four and a half miles from Answer / Manitou...


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## Cannon_Fodder (Aug 18, 2004)

*rear spring*

BigLarry just fyi I got my VP FREE to day and the rear spring was not strong enough (I am 6 foot 6 inches and 300 lbs )so you might half to buy a rear spring to get to ride right.Have you got your new bike ?


BigLarry said:


> I found both bike shop recommendations of djkellycx to be superb (Reed Sports in San Jose and Family Cyclery in Santa Cruz). The mechanics at both shops were VERY helpful (they were antonyms to the Los Gatos store) and spent an hour giving detailed expert technical advice. (I'm posting more details at the Santa Cruz Forum in response to djkellycx)
> 
> The Family Cyclery in Santa Cruz that I went to this weekend was a Santa Cruz bike mecha. They had lots of Santa Cruz bikes and frames, with about 5-6 Hecklers built up for sale and another dozen or so Heckler frames on the ceiling. Best of all they had another couple demo Hecklers that could even be rented.   One of them was a Large that I checked out in the the surrounding (flat) neighborhood.
> 
> ...


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

*Still Deciding Heckler Components*



Cannon_Fodder said:


> BigLarry just fyi I got my VP FREE to day and the rear spring was not strong enough (I am 6 foot 6 inches and 300 lbs )so you might half to buy a rear spring to get to ride right.Have you got your new bike ?


 This thread topic was hijacked off by me way before, so I was thinking of letting it die to start a new one thread later. But since you ask, here it goes. 
I'm pretty convinced I want the Heckler, but I'm still trying to figure out components and sizes.
The new Marzocchi forks came out but the Z1 FR seems similar with only a better (888 style) cartridge and 150 vs 130 mm travel. But it got rid of the QR20, which I sort of liked, but isn't critical. The All-mountain line looks interesting but I want a coil that only comes as an option, and the version I'd want with ETA is a yucky cream color. I may get either the new or old Z1 FR depending on what's in stock. 
The new Fox DHX5 rear shock looks better to me the more I look at it. Nice independent adjustability for stable pedal platform and bottom out. (On the force versus displacement, you can adjust the 0 displacement force, or stability, and the slope, or progressive force, independently.) The 5th Element also has serious reliabilty problems compared to Fox. I'll probably get the DHX5 over the 5th element. 
I'm still stuck on the frame size. I thought I wanted an XL since the L seemed just a touch small in my only good test ride, and the XL matches by L Fuel 90 Crossbar distance. But I got on a medium at another store and it didn't seem bad. So now I'm confused and need to go make sure of the sizes I was actually riding and get more time on it. 
Finally, I'm trying to figure out the component group. I'm thinking of just going XT unless I can get the new stronger Shimano Hone, but even it could be a mess with the rear derailure using the hub that's less convenient. I'm completely up in the air on the brakes other than I know I want an 8" disc. 
I found Reeds Cyclery in San Jose is very helpful and probably buy there if I can get a decent price from them. I already told them I wasn't going to take delivery until all springs and fork oils, etc, were installed and adjusted properly for my weight. They understood completely and the sales/mechanic was sharp enough to suggest off the top of my head exactly what I'd need in springs, oil weight, preload presssure, etc. for different components with my 250 lb weight. But I'll once I get the components figured out exactly, I'll verify with others (Santa Cruz, Fox, Marzocchi, this forum) to make sure it get it right. 
Since my Fuel is still operating OK (meaning the frame hasn't yet broke again) I'll take me time to get things right. My nightmare is to spend $3500 on a bike and find I'm worse off because of what I was imaging to be better that really wasn't. So I may not order for another month and expect another month or two for delivery as an early Xmas present.


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## MulletsRuleAndSoDoI (Aug 19, 2004)

Padre said:


> 240lbs here... had awesome luck w/ my MX Pro. No HD spring needed as you just up the air in one side. Flawless performance, super stiff, etc....
> Buy one now.


I just bought a Kona with an MX Comp ETA. What air pressure are you running in your MX?


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