# Stem geometry for tall guys



## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

Hi all. I hope this image comes out right... 







As a tall rider I have been experimenting with riser bars, angled stems, and forks and realizing I have been riding with to little stack height for years. I have found some Origin 8 stems with 25 and 40 degree angles to get the bars up where I can reach them. It was difficult to judge what the actual reach and stack effect would be with an angled stem, so I made this diagram as a reference that should be close.

The 17 degree was the first Ritchie brand stem I had on my XXL Rocky Mtn Element. I had to use a bunch of spacers under it and also a 2" riser bar. I included it here just to show that at 17 degrees, the reach is hardly shortened by the angle.

Just thought I would share. Take it or leave it.

Edit: To clarify, the R90, R100, etc. is the length of the stem.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

You can also use this calculator to compare stem reach and rise based on stem angle, length, height, and HTA. Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

jeremy3220 said:


> You can also use this calculator to compare stem reach and rise based on stem angle, length, height, and HTA. Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net


Cool! That one includes the head angle, so it's much better! Thanks


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

I should have included the head angle originally. Makes it look much different with 67 degree. Also I found they offer a 130mm stem.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

What is the length of the first stem, the 17 degree one? 

Salsa also makes a good quality and affordable stem in a variety of lengths and rises.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

When i got my xxl fuse i started with as high of a stem riser as i could buy. Then later when the fork was replaced went to an uncut steerer and then eventually switched out the stem for the original 70mm one. This diagram is helpful as it proves what i felt. More reach available but a lower bar height that may most likely be the same height as that before the angled stem and short steerer. If it makes sense. The uncut steerer was a big positive change that allowed reach to be preseved while providing the stack improvement


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

Fuse6F said:


> When i got my xxl fuse i started with as high of a stem riser as i could buy. Then later when the fork was replaced went to an uncut steerer and then eventually switched out the stem for the original 70mm one. This diagram is helpful as it proves what i felt. More reach available but a lower bar height that may most likely be the same height as that before the angled stem and short steerer. If it makes sense. The uncut steerer was a big positive change that allowed reach to be preseved while providing the stack improvement


A lot of what I say won't completely apply to most people because I'm 6'9", and even most XXL bikes are still one or two sizes too small. But anyway it seems most of the average sized riders I know like their grips about the same height as their saddle when it's extended. On my Rocky Element I finally achieved that with a 120mm x 40 degree stem + a 2" riser bar. What you said about the uncut steerer is true, but even that is not enough for me, and the tall stem actually is more effective because it reaches straight toward where the bars need to go.

Again this won't be helpful for most, but I wanted to share because it has been such a game changer for me. My riding is so much more enjoyable and confident.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Chart really shows that a 120mm riser isnt long on a steep stem!

So your running the riser stem and the uncut steerer and a 50mm riser. Wow. Thats alot of stack.


Do you have a total measurement?

Note steep seat tube bikes like the gg raise your cg alot and put more emphasis on stack height. Their bikes have alot more stack height across the size range for this reason.


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## forealz (Dec 12, 2016)

Would love to see photos and how did you know your stack was too low? / when did you know?


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

I'm still experimenting, but I didn't know my bars were too low until they weren't. I knew I had major handling and confidence problems but didn't know why. For years I have been taking incremental steps like adding an inch of rise to the bars here and there, but what I needed was several inches.

You wouldn't love seeing photos of my bikes because they look silly with the tall stems. Looking silly is just an adverse effect choosing the wrong sport for a tall guy haha. I don't care though cause I love riding.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Fuse6F said:


> Chart really shows that a 120mm riser isnt long on a steep stem!


True. I have a 120x40 on my gravel bike. It's about the same as a 90x0 stem mounted 3" higher on the steering tube. My single speed has a 80x30 which is like a 70x6 but with a couple inches added. Bars are still even or lower than my saddle on both bikes.


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## RSparkVB4 (Sep 26, 2018)

I'm confused by all of this. Currently I have tons of spacers on my uncut steerer tube, i am running a 50mm stem with a slight rise and a flat bar to give me more room while seated and riding. With higer riser bars I felt like I always angled them back which ltook away my reach... What should I be doing differently? slamming the bars the bottom with no spacers, instal a high riser bar, and a super long stem with a angle? 

I'm 6' 6" with long arms and am currently on a Jet 9rdo XL which is way too small for me. I always feel like I am on top of this bike and not in it and that I am always falling over forward on it...Currently i am building up a new 19 XL Mondraker Foxy (510mm reach, 42 offset fork. and reccomends a 30mm stem).... How would changing the stem longer effect the way the bikes handles with the 42 offset fork?


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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

RSparkVB4 said:


> I'm confused by all of this. Currently I have tons of spacers on my uncut steerer tube, i am running a 50mm stem with a slight rise and a flat bar to give me more room while seated and riding. With higer riser bars I felt like I always angled them back which ltook away my reach... What should I be doing differently? slamming the bars the bottom with no spacers, instal a high riser bar, and a super long stem with a angle?
> 
> I'm 6' 6" with long arms and am currently on a Jet 9rdo XL which is way too small for me. I always feel like I am on top of this bike and not in it and that I am always falling over forward on it...Currently i am building up a new 19 XL Mondraker Foxy (510mm reach, 42 offset fork. and reccomends a 30mm stem).... How would changing the stem longer effect the way the bikes handles with the 42 offset fork?


I can't tell you what you'll have to do to feel right on the bike. I can tell you that putting a bunch of spacers on an uncut steerer moves the stem rearward. If you got a very tall angled stem, you could try different positions up and down the steerer tube til you find a spot you like. I had a reach I was happy with, so then it was just a matter of using the chart I made to increase the stack while maintaining the reach. The stems I'm buying are only about $30 each, so I have bought several different ones, and I also have several different bars.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

RSparkVB4 said:


> I'm confused by all of this. Currently I have tons of spacers on my uncut steerer tube, i am running a 50mm stem with a slight rise and a flat bar to give me more room while seated and riding. With higer riser bars I felt like I always angled them back which ltook away my reach... What should I be doing differently? slamming the bars the bottom with no spacers, instal a high riser bar, and a super long stem with a angle?
> 
> I'm 6' 6" with long arms and am currently on a Jet 9rdo XL which is way too small for me. I always feel like I am on top of this bike and not in it and that I am always falling over forward on it...Currently i am building up a new 19 XL Mondraker Foxy (510mm reach, 42 offset fork. and reccomends a 30mm stem).... How would changing the stem longer effect the way the bikes handles with the 42 offset fork?


Could you post a link to the bike's geometry chart?

I found this, but I don't know if it's the exact bike. It's not a cross country bike, so the reach will be shorter, and the stack higher. Look at the comment blog below, it appears people around 6'1" ride the XL.

https://nsmb.com/articles/2018-mondraker-foxy-xr/


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I'm currently playing with geometry changes on my XL Ripmo to reduce hand and wrist pressure. I'm 6'4" and 205# - so maybe low on the Clyde scale.

I'm coming off a Jet 9 (XL) which had a 110mm stem and 25mm riser bar, and I never experienced the wrist/ hand pressure I do on this bike. I transferred my Ergon grips over to the Ripmo, and I've already ditched the very low rise bar that came on the bike for this 50mm rise bar:

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/spank-spike-800-race-riser-bar/rp-prod115996?utm_source=CRM&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=OrderDispatch&utm_content=US&mx=a

I have moved all of my steerer tube spacers (5) under the above bar. I've noticed an improvement, so I think I'm on the right track, but it still feels like there's more to go.

I used a long level from my saddle to my hand grips, and with the bubble inbetween the lines, there was 1.25" space under the level to my grips (grips are 1.25" lower than saddle).

I am guessing here that continuing to raise the bars to close to saddle height will improve the situation/ reduce hand and wrist pressure.
Using the stem comparison calculator, I came up with an 80mm stem with a 20 degree rise and 40mm stack height to raise the bars an additional 1.25".

I'm concerned about messing up the intended geometry of the bike, which came with a 50mm stem (0 degree) with such a long stem. The only short stem I've been able to find with a decent rise is this one:








- and the above stem only gives me 13mm rise (0.51") over what I have currently.

Does anyone know of any other short, high rise stem options?

I've already had a fitting done at my LBS, and they said I already had it as they would have recommended for me, and this was before the riser bar. Not very helpful. I don't know what else to do aside from throwing money at it in a trial and error situation, and selling the barely used parts that don't work for me.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

isleblue65 said:


> I'm currently playing with geometry changes on my XL Ripmo to reduce hand and wrist pressure. I'm 6'4" and 205# - so maybe low on the Clyde scale.
> 
> I'm coming off a Jet 9 (XL) which had a 110mm stem and 25mm riser bar, and I never experienced the wrist/ hand pressure I do on this bike. I transferred my Ergon grips over to the Ripmo, and I've already ditched the very low rise bar that came on the bike for this 50mm rise bar:
> 
> ...


I had a Ritchey Logic 30 degree, 80 mm stem on a bike that was too small (I've since gone to a larger frameset). It's available in 80, 100, and 120 mm, but the effective distance is much shorter due to the angle. The longer length increased effective stack and allowed me to sit up more.

https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/comp-4-axis-30d-stem


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Muirenn said:


> I had a Ritchey Logic 30 degree, 80 mm stem on a bike that was too small (I've since gone to a larger frameset). It's available in 80, 100, and 120 mm, but the effective distance is much shorter due to the angle. The longer length increased effective stack and allowed me to sit up more.
> 
> https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/comp-4-axis-30d-stem


Thanks, they also let you select 60mm, but the spec list says 80, 100 and 120.

That looks like a good option with steeper angle.

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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

isleblue65 said:


> Thanks, they also let you select 60mm, but the spec list says 80, 100 and 120.
> 
> That looks like a good option with steeper angle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't sure about all the lengths. The computer I was on earlier didn't let me see that.

I'd consider also trying one of the longer ones, because in this case, the length translates into taller.

What handlebars do you use?


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Muirenn said:


> I wasn't sure about all the lengths. The computer I was on earlier didn't let me see that.
> 
> I'd consider also trying one of the longer ones, because in this case, the length translates into taller.
> 
> What handlebars do you use?


The handlebar link is above (chain reaction cycles)

I'm going to calculate the rise with 30 degrees and different lengths compared to the zero degree 50mm Ibis stem to see what gets me 1.25" to 1.5" more rise. That would bring the handlebars even with the top of the saddle.

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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I ordered a few different stem options that I can try and return easily, to figure out if the change works for me. If so, I'll either buy the Ritchey stem, or eliminate bar position as a factor.

The first one is 90mm at 35 degrees, which, assuming I keep all of my spacers under the stem keeps my current reach exactly the same, but raises the height over 2" from where it currently is. I now have 25mm of spacers under my stem and my Ibis low rise bar to play with which will give me plenty of adjustment.










The next one is 70mm at 35 degrees. This moves my reach back toward me, but reach increases by removing spacers.










I also ordered Ergon GE1 grips to see if my old Ergon GX1 grips could be a factor. Some of my hand pain is on my outer palms where the wings of the GX1 are. I've played with positioning of the GX1 with the wings further down and up, and there seems to be little difference or improvement. The pressure just transfers from my outer palm to my inner hand and wrist. The GX1 grips helped me a lot with mild hand and wrist pressure on my Jet 9 and I used them for years, but I'm not seeing the benefits on the Ripmo.

GE1









GX1









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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

One thing, your bars only have 8 degrees of offset. Is that enough? I tried some that were similar offset and rise, and my wrists hurt for days afterwards. Currently using Salsa 710 mm 23 degree bend. They also have 735 mm and 17 degree options. The bend in the Salsa bars does not decrease reach, just slackens hand position. 

I had bars with a 45 degree offset before, but they impacted bike handling. I might still try the Surly Moloko bars, 34 degree offset and many hand positions, but I think the Salsas may work.

I would just keep all those stems. They come in handy when trying different bars, even future bikes. Though they do have a high rise, so perhaps you don't think you'll need that again.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Muirenn said:


> One thing, your bars only have 8 degrees of offset. Is that enough? I tried some that were similar offset and rise, and my wrists hurt for days afterwards. Currently using Salsa 710 mm 23 degree bend. They also have 735 mm and 17 degree options. The bend in the Salsa bars does not decrease reach, just slackens hand position.
> 
> I had bars with a 45 degree offset before, but they impacted bike handling. I might still try the Surly Moloko bars, 34 degree offset and many hand positions, but I think the Salsas may work.
> 
> I would just keep all those stems. They come in handy when trying different bars, even future bikes. Though they do have a high rise, so perhaps you don't think you'll need that again.


My Spank risers have 4 degrees upsweep and 8 degrees backsweep. Is that what you mean by "offset"?

Most of the discomfort is in my hands, not wrists- but when I ride several days in a row, or long rides, my wrists and arms hurt. I'll look at some of those bars you mention and pay more attention to the angle of my wrists on my bars and the Ibis bars.

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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Yes, that is what I meant by bar offset. 

It’s possible more than one piece of equipment is contributing to the issues.

Check out this blog with a list of unusual bars. Some can be custom ordered to your specs. I looked up your bike, and unless there are much cheaper versions available, i’d Say it’s worthwhile to go carbon or titanium. I woildn’t Bother with my Surly, but that bike isn’t really supposed to be high end. 

http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/list-of-comfort-mtb-handlebars/


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Muirenn said:


> Yes, that is what I meant by bar offset.
> 
> It's possible more than one piece of equipment is contributing to the issues.
> 
> ...


Interesting. My Ibis bars are 4 x 9 degrees sweep, so a degree more backsweep than the Spank risers. That article says minimum of 15 degrees to notice a difference and take pressure off of the Ulnar nerve.

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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

isleblue65 said:


> I ordered a few different stem options that I can try and return easily, to figure out if the change works for me. If so, I'll either buy the Ritchey stem, or eliminate bar position as a factor.
> 
> The first one is 90mm at 35 degrees, which, assuming I keep all of my spacers under the stem keeps my current reach exactly the same, but raises the height over 2" from where it currently is. I now have 25mm of spacers under my stem and my Ibis low rise bar to play with which will give me plenty of adjustment.
> 
> ...


Regarding pain on the outer palms, I got rid of all my grips that had a lock ring on the outside because I tend to hold my hands as wide as possible, and bearing on the outer lock rings was hurting them. I changed to Ergon grips like you got with the ring only on the inside.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I like the GE1 Evo grips. There the same/similar shape to the GE1 but a softer rubber.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

TNTall said:


> Regarding pain on the outer palms, I got rid of all my grips that had a lock ring on the outside because I tend to hold my hands as wide as possible, and bearing on the outer lock rings was hurting them. I changed to Ergon grips like you got with the ring only on the inside.


Good to hear. I think I generally keep my hands toward the outsides of the grips too, but haven't specifically identified the locking rings as being a pain point. I'm looking forward to trying out the GE1.

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Im no expert but i found i really like 9 degree bars. I also found that if i grab a set of bars in the store and hold them at arms reach, i definitely notice the bends i like and dont like. Try this at a decent lbs and see for yourself. 

Forget about width and just hold them to see what works for you. Cut them down if necessary. Its easy to do. Mark w painters tape and cut off excess w hacksaw. 

This will impact your comfort greatly. 

As far as reaches go and altering frame geometry. We clydes will never fit in the pocket of a bike as we are outside the design of the frame. Compromised! So just alter the bike to fit. 

I have been riding a hardtail so i also focus on standing position being my key riding position. So far i have been able to modify my fuse to obtain a very comfortable position. But it required an uncut steerer and 38mm riser bars with stock 70mm stem. Which after accounting for the slight additional M m of setback from angle of the stem will be slightly less than 70. If your tall you may easily need to extend the stem from stock. 

This post basically was to show that a 100mm riser stem isnt that long if its a 40degree rise. So dont be shy that way. 

Personally i preferred the uncut steerer feel w straight stem.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I took one ride with the 70mm riser stem, and was surprised that there didn’t seem to be a noticeable difference. I sat more upright, but in doing so, my weight felt like it transferred forward, as if the saddle was tilted forward. 

I felt the same or similar hand and wrist pressure. 

The Ergon grips have not arrived yet, so I am going to wait for those before doing anything else. In fact, I’m going to put the previous zero degree Ibis stem back on with the new grips and start there. If they feel better, I may go back to the Ibis low rise bars and start from that baseline. 


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## forealz (Dec 12, 2016)

TNTall said:


> I'm still experimenting, but I didn't know my bars were too low until they weren't. I knew I had major handling and confidence problems but didn't know why. For years I have been taking incremental steps like adding an inch of rise to the bars here and there, but what I needed was several inches.
> 
> You wouldn't love seeing photos of my bikes because they look silly with the tall stems. Looking silly is just an adverse effect choosing the wrong sport for a tall guy haha. I don't care though cause I love riding.


Well please post photos when you can. I'm curious what it looks like and it would be very helpful to see a guy like you standing on your pedals and what kind of difference it makes.

When I stand on my pedals on my XXL Hightower LT I still feel like I'm straining my back leaning foward. That's at 6'5" with a 40mm stem 35mm riser bars and stem at the top of my spacers (30mm)

Similar to https://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-tall-riders/pole-taival-i-found-my-new-hardtail-1078839.html


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

isleblue65 said:


> I'm coming off a Jet 9 (XL) which had a 110mm stem and 25mm riser bar, and I never experienced the wrist/ hand pressure I do on this bike.


Part of it may be the reality of going from a smaller frame with a long stem, in which you're riding somewhat defensively behind the bars (to avoid endoing), to a long-reach frame that requires a more aggressive, rider-forward position. Hopefully your grip will relax as you become more comfortable with how the bike handles.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Ryder1 said:


> Part of it may be the reality of going from a smaller frame with a long stem, in which you're riding somewhat defensively behind the bars (to avoid endoing), to a long-reach frame that requires a more aggressive, rider-forward position. Hopefully your grip will relax as you become more comfortable with how the bike handles.


I watched that video, and paid attention to my riding this morning. Also, before the ride I re-installed the Ibis short zero degree rise stem and used the same riser bars. I did roll the bars forward and the saddle back on the rails to see what a more stretched out position would feel like.

There was no difference in comfort level, and maybe it was a little better. I think I was more stretched out on the Niner with the (it was actually 130mm) stem.

I moved my saddle back because one thing I noticed coming from the Niner is that the Ibis puts my feet more under me instead of out front due to steep seat tube angle. I was using different muscles on the Ibis because of pushing down more than forward, and it took getting used to. It also felt like the geo rolled my pelvis forward more, which weighted my hands.

I don't think I'm unrelaxed on the Ibis. If anything, I'm more relaxed because I don't feel the front tire lifting in climbs or the endo feeling on descents.

I just need to get these grips here and installed so I can rule that in or out.

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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

isleblue65 said:


> I watched that video, and paid attention to my riding this morning. Also, before the ride I re-installed the Ibis short zero degree rise stem and used the same riser bars. I did roll the bars forward and the saddle back on the rails to see what a more stretched out position would feel like.
> 
> There was no difference in comfort level, and maybe it was a little better. I think I was more stretched out on the Niner with the (it was actually 130mm) stem.
> 
> ...


I would seriously consider finding a good fitter if the grips don't solve the issue 100%.


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## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

isleblue65 said:


> I just need to get these grips here and installed so I can rule that in or out.


Your hands are probably bigger than mine, but I love those GE1s. Been using them for 2 years. Good luck.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

Took my first ride with the GE1 grips, and my wrists felt better - especially my palms because there isn't the flat platform of the GX1. I adjusted them a few times on the trail so the ridge on the front of the grips aligned with my index finger with my natural wrist angle.

These grips really make me want to align my wrist angle more straight. I could feel my wrists turned in from my forearms - which something like a Stooge Moto Bar May help with at 17 degree sweep. Even the Ibis bar is 9 degree sweep compared to 8 degrees for the Spank Risers on the bike now.

I feel like I'm getting closer!










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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The key to tall guys' bikes isn't stem or bar height, or even wheel size, it's long-enough top tube length. This is doubly important on the trail than the road, where you can feel confident not only descending, but cornering without understeer.

I highly recommend custom frames for guys 6'6" or better, especially Dirty Sixer.


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