# Why so much jumping?



## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps. 

XC doesn't involve jumping off artificial ramps nor do they separate the wheels from the ground much if at all. Am I right here?

Does the discipline that requires trail bikes involve jumping off ramps or is that enduro/all mountain. In other words, are trail bikes built to withstand jumps?

Although I clearly understand that trails, just as ramps, are human made, I don't like jumping on my bike. Well, I have a family that depends on me and can't afford the risk, especially when over 90% of the crash videos involve riders jumping off artificial ramps.

This is my first post so I hope I'm posting in the right place. And thank you in advance for your insight.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jumping is fun to do and fun to watch. You do not have to jump though. Most xc trails that are green or blue rated don’t include mandatory air. You don’t see as many videos of people tooling around on green and blue trails because frankly, it’s boring to watch.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-full-lap-of-the-2020-tokyo-olympic-xc-course.html

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm not a big jumper. There are some newer jump lines that have been built around me. I ride and enjoy them but I ride more bmx style, just letting the bike follow the terrain while I float over it. You can ride at surprising speeds while doing this, without leaving the ground. Of course, this doesn't work for gap jumps or drops. I will ride smaller drops and I do jump a little, but I can't afford a big crash, either. Plus that would hurt!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

So.... what's the question?


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Then don't hit jumps. I mean there are many ways to enjoy mountain biking from racing (Xc, enduro, downhill, 4x, etc) to freeriding to bikepacking to just riding along and being out in nature. Just find what you enjoy and enjoy it. If you come to jumps or drops and you don't want to hit them, take the b-line or walk them.

Lots of people enjoy them. That is why they exist.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I think you're getting a skewed idea of what mountain biking is based on internet videos. Most media features representations of activities that are far outside what is typical and MTB videos are no different. XC videos are relatively boring, only riders appreciate them at all. Everyone loves watching "EXTREME BIKING" so online videos with lots of that are popular. I doubt that more than 15% of mountain bikers can jump much of anything, but I'll bet that most of the audience watching Rampage even own a mountain bike.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-full-lap-of-the-2020-tokyo-olympic-xc-course.html


That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.


Those would be normal trails in several of the systems I live in, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person here would ride.

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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

AlbertHenry said:


> I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.


I think others have already touched on this, but yeah, it seems like there's so much jumping because that's what people video record. No scientific facts here, but I'd venture to guess for every one rider you see in a video jumping big gaps, there are a few thousand other riders whose tires never leave the ground.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Those would be normal trails in several of the systems I live in, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person here would ride.


Yeah, but how many of those people are riding a short travel XC bike? Probably on Trail bikes if I had to guess.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Yeah, but how many of those people are riding a short travel XC bike? Probably on Trail bikes if I had to guess.


The OP asked about "trail bikes"... For at least three brands I'm aware of, Orbea, Intense, Santa Cruz, their XC bike frame is the same as their trail version. I'd happily take my Oiz TR off of most stuff that isn't a drop to relatively flat or one of the 10'+ high road gap stepdowns. Is it going to be as fast through some of it as my Rallon, absolutely not. However it does jump better off of certain types of jumps than the Rallon.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-full-lap-of-the-2020-tokyo-olympic-xc-course.html


Okay you're right, "XC" is a designation of a race format. However, for decades people have also used the term "cross country" interchangeably with "mountain biking," i.e., heading out to your local after work loop without any organized competition taking place.

In the video you linked was there any mandatory air? I skimmed through it and didn't see any (it did appear challenging enough, like a blue trail). I didn't watch the whole thing at real-time speed though because it was frankly, a little boring to watch like most trail riding.



mack_turtle said:


> Most media features representations of activities that are far outside what is typical


Except for porn. Porn is TOTALLY real.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

93EXCivic said:


> Then don't hit jumps. I mean there are many ways to enjoy mountain biking from racing (Xc, enduro, downhill, 4x, etc) to freeriding to bikepacking to just riding along and being out in nature. Just find what you enjoy and enjoy it. If you come to jumps or drops and you don't want to hit them, take the b-line or walk them.
> 
> Lots of people enjoy them. That is why they exist.


Precisely. :thumbsup:


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Nat said:


> Okay you're right, "XC" is a designation of a race format. However, for decades people have also used the term "cross country" interchangeably with "mountain biking," i.e., heading out to your local after work loop without any organized competition taking place.
> 
> In the video you linked was there any mandatory air? I skimmed through it and didn't see any (it did appear challenging enough, like a blue trail). I didn't watch the whole thing at real-time speed though because it was frankly, a little boring to watch like most trail riding.


Yes, there is mandatory air on that course. Where I'm at almost all of the trails, even greens, have optional kickers and rock rolls. Having it be available in so many places, and in the fast line for quite a few, it leads to a lot of people jumping.

I ride with quite a few people, shop rides, friends, club rides, NICA, and almost everyone I ride with gets their wheels off the ground at least once a ride. Sure there are a few who don't but they are far in the minority.

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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Those would be normal trails in several of the systems* I live in*, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person *here* would ride.


You're not wrong there, but my emphasis is relevant. You can't apply your specific, regional experience to everyone, everywhere.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> You're not wrong there, but my emphasis is relevant.


Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US. The point being your 100x more and 99.9% comments are just a tad hyperbolic.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Yes, there is mandatory air on that course. Where I'm at almost all of the trails, even greens, have optional kickers and rock rolls. Having it be available in so many places, and in the fast line for quite a few, it leads to a lot of people jumping.
> 
> I ride with quite a few people, shop rides, friends, club rides, NICA, and almost everyone I ride with gets their wheels off the ground at least once a ride. Sure there are a few who don't but they are far in the minority.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Okay, I must've fast-forwarded over the mandatory air part. Our greens and blues have optional challenge lines but the key word is "optional." Anyone who doesn't want to jump can take the ride-around. I seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.

"Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US." Where is that?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US.


Cool.

A tad hyperbolic, sure. I don't have actual statics, I was making a generalization to make a reasonable point.

it's still true that your specific, regional experience is not representative of everyone else's. Very few people travel to ride when you consider the huge number of people who ride and the broad level of dedication they have for the activity. Most people, myself included, rarely leave their own county to ride. I believe that a vaguely defined "majority" ride trails that are "less challenging" than the course in that video. Leave room for that and don't turn it into a pissing contest.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Nat said:


> Okay, I must've fast-forwarded over the mandatory air part. Our greens and blues have optional challenge lines but the key word is "optional." Anyone who doesn't want to jump can take the ride-around. I seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.


Under certain organizations' rating guidelines that is true.



Nat said:


> "Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US." Where is that?


Bentonville

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> A tad hyperbolic, sure. But it's still true that your specific, regional experience is not representative of everyone else's. Very few people travel to ride when you consider the huge number of people who ride and the broad level of dedication they have for the activity. Most people, myself included, rarely leave their own county to ride. I believe that a vaguely "define majority" ride trails that are "less challenging" than the course in that video. Leave room for that and don't turn it into a pissing contest.


I never said it was a complete representation. It did help to highlight the hyperbole which was the only reason it was brought up.

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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

AlbertHenry said:


> I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.
> 
> XC doesn't involve jumping off artificial ramps nor do they separate the wheels from the ground much if at all. Am I right here?
> 
> ...


I don't understand your question/comment.

I also don't understand why you quoted 'artificial' jump. What is your understanding of artificial jump?

I'd consider a natural jump to be a bump in the trail, not created with intent.
I'd consider a man-made jump to be machine made or hand cut and shaped.
I'd consider an artificial jump a metal ramp like is seen in X-Games.

Are you simply trying to understand why we all have a death wish and 'jump' our bikes?
Do you believe that once one gets on a bike they must ride jump trails with no way to avoid these trails?
Are you trying to figure out why you got into riding since the conditions aren't what you expected of them?

Just trying to understand the context of your thread. It means something to you because you registered a few months ago and this is the first thing you ask about in 4 months.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.

There are so many jumps because people like jumps. Some people will look to jump off of anything they find. This can be detrimental to the trail if it's not designed into it, because you'll get people creating a bunch of new lines. Maybe not a big deal if it's just to the side of the existing line, but a bunch of spiderwebbing from people riding in totally new side trails to access jumps is a problem.

The trails themselves are manmade, so by extension, so are jumps. Even if it's a line off of a rock or a bump in the ground. It wasn't a jump until someone started riding it. But yeah, sometimes jumps are built with more work and intent. Big dirt jumps or even wooden features. Where I live, some jumps are made from big rocks intentionally placed.

I'm almost 40 with a health history, terrible insurance, and I'm not comfortable with big air, but even I find a little bit of air to be lots of fun. I tend to prefer drops, but I also like rollers and tabletops. I draw the line at gap jumps, though.

Mountain biking period means that there's going to be opportunity for your wheels to leave the ground. Even in xc riding. You don't have to take that opportunity if you don't want to. Sure, xc bikes aren't meant to really excel on jump lines or do big hucks, but they can handle some of that, especially under a skilled rider who can ride with finesse and isn't hulk smashing everything. Mountain biking has always been about riding the terrain you find on the trail. Early mtbs were really limited in what they could actually ride, but over the years, bike manufacturers have figured out how to make bikes more versatile and that has really opened up the kinds of terrain that bikes can handle. And that has opened up mountain biking to a wide variety of "styles" of riding depending on what you like and what you have available.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Harold said:


> I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.


The "jump over Mount Fiji" feature is a step down but the other big air is a drop. The rock garden will be interesting because there were multiple spectacular crashes hucking and rolling both.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Jumping is fun. I don't think many people will argue that. Once you get to a certain level, and you're familiar enough with a trail, you can take just about any bike to the local jump line and let it rip. Although things started getting a little dicey a couple weeks back when I took the gravel bike out there and almost completely cleared the backside of a table. Super low rolling resistance tires, aero + tailwind = massive speed.

That said, there's a thread on here right now where someone is asking about how reach will impact the ability to throw the bike around on jumps, and it's readily apparent the guy doesn't actually own a bike at all right now. Just my opinion, but perhaps getting some basic skills such as "turning left", or "navigate a technical section" might be worth pursuing first, unless one only desires to ride the jump lines.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

My riding (and life in general) is not GoPro worthy...except perhaps for a few of the crashes.


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

Skate boarding: 
Q: why so many tricks?

A: 'caus nobody wants to watch boring videos.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

AlbertHenry said:


> I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.


In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing **IS** intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".

However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.

So, until then, relax and ride around it. If you never develop the taste for it, great, avoid them / ride around. Easy enough!


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Mountain biking involves any sort of riding you want it to be.


I like to jump a lot. Some people don't.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

AlbertHenry said:


> I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps. ...


I have biked thousands of miles over the past 7 years and have never jumped off of an artificial ramp. I have jumped a few things where the trail surface allowed for it, but never very high. I don't jump or even try to. I ride XC HT, XC FS and now a 160/145 trail bike. The long travel bike is most capable for landings, but I don't want to risk the crashes that come from big jumps. 6-24" is plenty of height. That said there are jumps on the XC World Cup coruses. Some quite large and man made drops to flat where air is seen. If I raced those kind of courses I would have to learn to get comfortable with them. But I don't so I am not going to worry much.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

What goes up, must come down.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

You see a lot of pictures of people jumping because people jumping makes for a good picture.

Also, jumping is fun. At least it looks fun.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

a ramp is simply a ramp. what the hell is an 'artificial' ramp?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I grew up in BMX, so jumping was one of the reasons I even got on a bike

but now that I am older, I consider it more of a trail skill...like manuals or bunny hops...and use it that way. I wish I had the guts to do what I used to do, but recovery time and life sensibilities temper that now.

I find I am more aggressive with jumps at the skatepark than in the woods for whatever reason...I think in the woods there are so many other things I feel like I am trying to master and control, that jumping is not as important. I also don't live in an area where we have tons of "sending it" type jumps...we have more flow, tech, and small jumps/embankments etc.

I ride a Surly Krampus rigid, and never really worry about breaking it...weigh between 195-215 depending on the proximity to Christmas time food. 

I never broke frames when riding BMX...popped tires and messed up pedals/cranks/stems/handlebars, but friends told me I had a "pretty soft landing style" back in the day.

MTB becomes whatever you want it to be. I honestly could not tell you whether I ride all mountain; XC...whatever. I DO know that I don't ride down hill and enduro, and am definitely getting into bike packing.


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## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

I think I've had more scary experiences and close calls on natures strategically placed wet roots and rocks than I have had jumping. At least with jumping I am prepared to possibly bail. Being scared to do it can make jumping more dangerous if you don't commit, so don't make yourself jump off something if you are uncomfortable. Sometimes it helps to follow someone you trust over a jump if you decide to give it a try.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
At least to me.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

mack_turtle said:


> That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.


If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike. 90% of what I saw in that video, I'd ride on a drop bar bike. That looks like a gravel road compared to any trail I'd go out of my way to want to ride.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I finally watched that whole video. It looked challenging but not brutal. I would ride it but the average rider would have a pretty hard time with it. Then again, maybe I have low expectations for AVERAGE riders. That's a hard thing to define objectively, but I lead group rides full of people who can barely bunnyhop a curb, so that's my understanding of the weekend warrior type that makes up the bulk of the skills bell curve. 

The riders in the video had to dismount and walk at least once. It's hard to tell with all the distortion from a POV video viewed on a 5" wide screen, but I still this that's a bit harder than what most average mountain bikers are used to.

Please don't turn this into a pissing contest.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
> At least to me.


That's your opinion, man. I'd revel in the joy of climb a hill just to get to another hill. But that's me. "So much jumping" is strange to some people for this reason.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> I finally watched that whole video. It looked challenging but not brutal. I would ride it but the average rider would have a pretty hard time with it. Then again, maybe I have low expectations for AVERAGE riders. That's a hard thing to define objectively, but I lead group rides full of people who can barely bunnyhop a curb, so that's my understanding of the weekend warrior type that makes up the bulk of the skills bell curve.
> 
> The riders in the video had to dismount and walk at least once. It's hard to tell with all the distortion from a POV video viewed on a 5" wide screen, but I still this that's a bit harder than what most average mountain bikers are used to.
> 
> Please don't turn this into a pissing contest.


It's not a contest. It's just that skills progress differently where there is a prevalence of certain things. It's not an abnormal trail for around here (much tamer than a lot of stuff on the NorthShore for example) so I didn't agree with the hyperbole. The curb jumping thing is interesting because I ride with quite a few people who can't bunny hop at all but go full send with skill and confidence off of large tables and 6' step downs/drops.

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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Again, regional differences. Where I live, OI can ride out my driveway and have access to hundreds of miles of rocky singletrack, but there are very few opportunities to "send" anything or huck much more than a 12' drop. I could make a day trip to Spider Mountain and pedal my bike to the famous 9th Street Trails, or one of a few other places that I know better than to mention in public, but many people like myself have no interest in doing so.

Very few places have terrain like that and places that do encourage that kind of riding. If you could somehow poll a sample of riders that represents the breadth of experiences we enjoy, I think you'd find that most people feel that way too. It's not better or right, just a preference. That's the heart of the question here- why does the media focus on the extreme ends of the sport? The answer is still- because that the part that's most interesting to watch for most people.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> because that the part that's most interesting to watch for most people.


Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.

OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

There are helpful skills that involve taking your wheels off the ground. That's why you always see posts here about how to bunny hop and manual.

Some trails are for jumping. Shared-use trails are not very jumpy. Lift served MTB parks at ski resorts are very very jumpy.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

twodownzero said:


> If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike.


The ultimate MTBro retort: "Dood, do you even?" 
Just because a person disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't ride, they just ride different.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike. 90% of what I saw in that video, I'd ride on a drop bar bike. That looks like a gravel road compared to any trail I'd go out of my way to want to ride.


Sounds pretty gnarly, where ya at?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.
> 
> OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?


^ this guy should post more.

(Some rep for you sir.)


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

*OneSpeed* said:


> So.... what's the question?


Why all the circus tricks on bikes?


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

I'd say jumping makes for great video. I do like to catch some air, but nothing big. But most (99.9%) of my riding is just trail riding. I love rocky singletrack, flowing singletrack, any singletrack. I like the occasional jump and drop, but it's not I go out of the way to just do jumps (anymore). But if I take a video, it's almost always of a jump or drop because it's more fun to show off doing that one cool feature rather than the 20 miles of trail I rode that day.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

tom tom said:


> Why all the circus tricks on bikes?


Fun?

I'm pretty sure it's not because it's unpleasant?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I bet you there's a YouTube community that enjoys watching gravel grinding. Could you imagine? Grind grind grind. Grind grind grind. Grind some more.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Nat said:


> I bet you there's a YouTube community that enjoys watching gravel grinding. Could you imagine? Grind grind grind. Grind grind grind. Grind some more.


I recently learned that there's a TV channel (streaming) that is just the front view of a train on train tracks. Granted a lot of the footage is of scenic locations, but common, it's just grinding gravel (guided by rails).

(truthfully I'll ride a bike all day with a smile on my face, even under "boring" conditions. I love, and prefer to spend all of my time on singletrack, but I'd happily grind gravel as an alternative to riding the road when the trails are too wet to ride responsibly.)


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I recently learned that there's a TV channel (streaming) that is just the front view of a train on train tracks. Granted a lot of the footage is of scenic locations, but common, it's just grinding gravel (guided by rails).
> 
> (truthfully I'll ride a bike all day with a smile on my face, even under "boring" conditions. I love, and prefer to spend all of my time on singletrack, but I'd happily grind gravel as an alternative to riding the road when the trails are too wet to ride responsibly.)


Yeah, doing said activity and watching said activity on your laptop are very different.

A long time ago my roommate and I sat down to watch jet boat racing. We thought, "This should be exciting. You know, boats powered by jets, fast as hell." Well, on screen you'd see a jet boat kind of bobbing up and down in the middle of the tv, water a blur behind it. After a few minutes we realized that we were basically looking at a boat sitting in the middle of the screen. The excitement that the pilot must've felt did not translate to the tv at all.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I think jumping is a fundamental skill. There are a few natural 'jumps' on my local trails that if you can't jump you will be slower in that section. One is a g-out through a gully that will launch you into the air coming out of it if you ride it even moderately fast. Another is a dip that leads to a slight uphill then another dip to flat (natural tabletop). Another popular scenario is gapping over roots or using a root to gap over something else. Someone good at jumping/hopping can hit a root or other small bump to fly multiple bike lengths.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Just because a person disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't ride, they just ride different.


I imagine the issue he has is the same that I have. Saying that the Olympics course is something that 99.9% of riders couldn't ride and that it's a 100 times harder isn't really a disagreement. It's misguided hyperbole at best and speaking for someone else at worst.

I have 200ish miles within a 30 minute pedal, single-track 70' out the door and some greenway to other systems, that have trails that are comparable to flat out more difficult than the Olympics course shown. Quite a few of those trails see thousands of distinct riders a year so the numbers don't add up.

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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Nat said:


> Most xc trails that are green or blue rated don't include mandatory air.


I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

AlbertHenry said:


> I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?


The only thing I've seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-full-lap-of-the-2020-tokyo-olympic-xc-course.html
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Great video. I understand from other comments that this is an above average XC course so they must be pushing their XC bikes to their limit. Is it rated as blue? I did find it amazing how they had traction on those smooth rocks. I hope it's not raining during the actual race!



chazpat said:


> I'm not a big jumper. There are some newer jump lines that have been built around me. I ride and enjoy them but I ride more bmx style, just letting the bike follow the terrain while I float over it. You can ride at surprising speeds while doing this, without leaving the ground. Of course, this doesn't work for gap jumps or drops. I will ride smaller drops and I do jump a little, but I can't afford a big crash, either. Plus that would hurt!


Got it! Will be careful with those gap jumps if I'm going fast. I do remember a two feet drop. My bike could do it without the chain-ring hitting so I did it at walking speed. I guess it's the wrong way to do it but there was another drop a bike and a half-length away (!)



*OneSpeed* said:


> So.... what's the question?


Can XC bikes handle man-made/artificial jumps? Can trail bikes handle man-made/artificial jumps?

To 93EXCivic I really do enjoy mountain biking!

To mack_turtle and fredcook: I'm starting to get the picture...



tuckerjt07 said:


> The OP asked about "trail bikes"... For at least three brands I'm aware of, Orbea, Intense, Santa Cruz, their XC bike frame is the same as their trail version. I'd happily take my Oiz TR off of most stuff that isn't a drop to relatively flat or one of the 10'+ high road gap stepdowns. Is it going to be as fast through some of it as my Rallon, absolutely not. However it does jump better off of certain types of jumps than the Rallon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Wow, really? Same frame? What about head tube angle?



Nat said:


> seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.


There's a trail I once took that was absolutely easy except for a two feet drop followed by two smaller drops. Maybe that's the whole reason why it was blue instead of green...


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

AlbertHenry said:


> Wow, really? Same frame? What about head tube angle?


Exact same frame, head angles are a tad slacker due to a 120mm travel fork vs 100mm. To be fair those, even though the have TR or trail in the name, are more marathon XC bikes. They're not going to hold up like an Evil Following, Norco Optic or other short travel brawler but as long as you aren't casing or landing to flat they are durable bikes. Same with rock gardens, they're not a speed smash and pray type bike but are still capable if the rider can ride smooth and light.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

roughster said:


> In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing **IS** intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".
> 
> However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.


After I had been riding six months, I learned to take all estimates of rate of progression with a grain of salt.








Your mileage may vary.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Forest Rider said:


> I don't understand your question/comment.
> 
> I also don't understand why you quoted 'artificial' jump. What is your understanding of artificial jump?
> 
> ...


I wanted to know if XC bikes can withstand jumps. I mentioned "artificial" ramps for lack of a better term. Now I understand the difference between natural, man-made, and artificial. I suppose that XC bikes can handle natural jumps, but big and nasty man-made and artificial ones? No way, right?

Trail bikes are obviously for tougher terrain but are they designed for the intent of jumping about from man-made or artificial ramps/jumps? Or would you need an enduro/all mountain if you want to take on the big jumps safely?

I never thought of people having a death wish, and I don't believe that one must ride jump trails with no way to avoid them, nor am I trying to figure out why I got into this sport.

One of the main reasons that I ask is because there is some equipment (putting geometry, travel, and tires aside) meant for XC and others for trail use. If trail use is defined by jumping I'll keep my XC duty equipment for my green and blue trails.

My original question was vague because I'm only starting to understand this sport better. Especially after the shock horror realization that mountain bikers seem to welcome absolutely artificial or man-made features into a sport with the word "mountain" in it. That's what I'm still trying to wrap my head around! But it's just a matter of nomenclature. Like clipping into clip-less pedals or needing an all-mountain mtb for doing tabletops safely. Whaaat?!?!?!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?


Green, blue, black trails can all be done safely with an xc bike if the rider has the skills. They can all be extremely hazardous too for someone who doesn't have the skills. There's a video of a pro mountain bike racer taking a cross bike down one of Whistler's black flow trails, so it can be done if you're good enough.

I would not say there's a direct correlation between trail rating and bike type, because really, people can ride what they want. An exception might be red (or pro) lines on which you'll probably only see big DH bikes.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Or would you need an enduro/all mountain if you want to take on the big jumps safely?


Mostly you need skill but bigger bikes are generally more forgiving if you get sloppy. At the same time, bigger bikes tend to encourage more aggressive riding at higher speeds so maybe any increase in safety gets lost because when you crash it will be more spectacular?


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Harold said:


> I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.
> 
> There are so many jumps because people like jumps. Some people will look to jump off of anything they find. This can be detrimental to the trail if it's not designed into it, because you'll get people creating a bunch of new lines. Maybe not a big deal if it's just to the side of the existing line, but a bunch of spiderwebbing from people riding in totally new side trails to access jumps is a problem.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply. It's true, all trails are man made but some seem more "made" than others. Where I live mountainbiking is a against the law so we don't have many features nor riders.



roughster said:


> In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing **IS** intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".
> 
> However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.
> 
> So, until then, relax and ride around it. If you never develop the taste for it, great, avoid them / ride around. Easy enough!


It sure is intimidating and scary at first but I'm getting a hang of it.



.WestCoastHucker. said:


> a ramp is simply a ramp. what the hell is an 'artificial' ramp?


Hahahaha



Kolchak said:


> I think I've had more scary experiences and close calls on natures strategically placed wet roots and rocks than I have had jumping. At least with jumping I am prepared to possibly bail. Being scared to do it can make jumping more dangerous if you don't commit, so don't make yourself jump off something if you are uncomfortable. Sometimes it helps to follow someone you trust over a jump if you decide to give it a try.


Ok, Can I ask if you were on clipless or on flats?



TwoTone said:


> Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
> At least to me.


Maybe because I ride a 26" with max pressure in tires it's more difficult and exciting. I once saw a guy speeding by in a 27 or 29r with low pressure on what sounded like tubeless and it seemed so easy that I guess he'd have to jump to get a thrill out of it.



slapheadmofo said:


> Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.
> 
> OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?


NONE. There's only one pump track where I live and it opens only once a month if at all. I just ride on hiking trails. It's against the law and it being that way the trails or not designed for bikers nor do they have any man-made mtb features. But even if I did find a place where I could jump I wouldn't do it. My main reason for asking was to know if the so called trail bikes (aside from geometry) are designed with jumping in mind, because if that's the case, I'll keep my current bike. I could have made the question that simply but wasn't sure how to ask...



Nat said:


> Green, blue, black trails can all be done safely with an xc bike if the rider has the skills. They can all be extremely hazardous too for someone who doesn't have the skills. There's a video of a pro mountain bike racer taking a cross bike down one of Whistler's black flow trails, so it can be done if you're good enough.
> 
> I would not say there's a direct correlation between trail rating and bike type, because really, people can ride what they want. An exception might be red (or pro) lines on which you'll probably only see big DH bikes.


Great this is a great reply. Thank you very much to you and all of you who contributed your thoughts into this topic. I'm starting to understand that indeed it's up to the rider to ride safely and that the duty of the mountain bike is just an added measure of safety. As long as we're not talking about extremely harsh trails or extreme jumps with flat landings, a "light" rider can do them safely even in an XC-duty bike.

In fact, I do remember when practicing going down the stairs that if I'm all stiff, my fork will bottom out loudly whereas if I'm light, it won't. I've tried to take that being light practice to the mountain but I'm scared of loosening the grip from the handlebars too much. I gotta refine that.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

I'm personally not a jumper. I prefer rocky, rooty knarly tech as opposed to jumping.

Coming from 15 years of expert class MX, you'd think I'd want to jump, but that's not the case!


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Where do you live that mountain biking is illegal?


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Nat said:


> Where do you live that mountain biking is illegal?


Japan. You can't ride bicycles on mountain trails. Obviously there are some places (private property) where it can be done but they are very rare. I personally ride in weekdays or at night. Then again I don't think you'll get into lots of trouble unless you crash into someone. All this means is that the trails are either very simple or unsuitable for mountain bikes.

Also, there is virtually no mountain biking culture. Most mtb bikes and components sold are XC and there's a notorious lack of safety equipment in shop displays and catalogs.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Yeah, Japan is KING of the custom commuter bike. MTB is only for pros, there...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> I'm starting to understand that indeed it's up to the rider to ride safely and that the duty of the mountain bike is just an added measure of safety. As long as we're not talking about extremely harsh trails or extreme jumps with flat landings, a "light" rider can do them safely even in an XC-duty bike.


Well put; you've got it now.

You can pretty much extrapolate that to every bit of gear that anyone tells you that 'you have to buy X to do Y'. It's basic BS for the most part.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

The capability of newer bikes can make traditional trails boring, so riders with newer and more capable bikes may be seeking jumps and obstacles just to make the ride more interesting.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?


The color coding thing is kinda new to MTB and wildy disparate depending on location.
Where I live, only a very small percentage of public trails have had people try to attach ratings to them and from what I've seen, pretty much nobody really pays attention to them except novices.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

AlbertHenry said:


> Japan.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> The only thing I've seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.


People on DJ/slopestyle bikes hit many of the big lines around here, and most other places I'd assume. If there weren't restrictions on equipment, I'll bet that most of them would've been popped at some point on BMX bikes too. (Was just reading along to that conversation regarding the new pro line that was built down the road from me.)

Of course, that applies to the newer-school trails, not the good 'ol chunky stuff. But yeah, watch any slopestyle competition and you'll see guys going huge on minimal equipment.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> The color coding thing is kinda new to MTB and wildy disparate depending on location.
> Where I live, only a very small percentage of public trails have had people try to attach ratings to them and from what I've seen, pretty much nobody really pays attention to them except novices.


Where I live, the vast majority of the trails are older than I am and are shoehorned onto old logging road corridors. The USFS assigned difficulty ratings decades ago based on how difficult they are to hike uphill (because mtb wasn't even a thing at the time), which mostly only took into account length and grade. It's only really luck that those ratings seem to correlate to some degree with how difficult they are to ride. Plus, with the heavy rain we get here in addition to the traffic levels, the trails have changed massively. The first time I rode here was almost 20yrs ago, and the trails I rode then don't look anything like what they do now. Yet the difficulty rating is the same.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> People on DJ/slopestyle bikes hit many of the big lines around here, and most other places I'd assume. If there weren't restrictions on equipment, I'll bet that most of them would've been popped at some point on BMX bikes too. (Was just reading along to that conversation regarding the new pro line that was built down the road from me.)
> 
> Of course, that applies to the newer-school trails, not the good 'ol chunky stuff. But yeah, watch any slopestyle competition and you'll see guys going huge on minimal equipment.


Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.
> 
> Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


Yup, the old-school natural stuff is a whole different story.
Personally, I prefer it, but that's probably because I can't jump. 

New school jump style trails are super popular at lift served venues, little harder to find 'in the wild', but they are out there. Many are kept off the radar by the builders though, similar to DJ spots. Don't need a bunch of unqualified riders killing themselves, or more importantly, the trashing the trails.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Harold said:


> Where I live, the vast majority of the trails are older than I am and are shoehorned onto old logging road corridors. The USFS assigned difficulty ratings decades ago based on how difficult they are to hike uphill (because mtb wasn't even a thing at the time), which mostly only took into account length and grade. It's only really luck that those ratings seem to correlate to some degree with how difficult they are to ride. Plus, with the heavy rain we get here in addition to the traffic levels, the trails have changed massively. The first time I rode here was almost 20yrs ago, and the trails I rode then don't look anything like what they do now. Yet the difficulty rating is the same.


"Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing

One set of trails here - boring as all get out. Its all single track, and smooth. There is next to zero technical items. All smooth dirt. 
I frequent the place only because it is 8 minutes from my house, and it's a great place to get a workout, since it is so smooth. 
The PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (garbage bureaucracy as far as I am concerned!) rates this trail system as "difficult". IMBA ratings have it as "Easiest".

I agree with IMBA!

Another trail here, it is locally rated as Double Black. But, it is a slow, technical trail. I think the fastest guy has done it in about 13 minutes. Its just over 1.2 miles long. Its simply a double black because if you can clean this trail, you are doing extremely well. I've only ever cleaned about 95%. One section I just cannot clean. The rocks are so large, while heading uphill and in corners, I haven't been able to do it all yet.
I've cleaned every section independently, but never all together in one run. 
That to me is the fun and challenge!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.
> 
> Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


Yep, I agree, well built jump lines, even huge ones, are relatively smooth if ridden as intended. They're usually rated high due to the consequences if something goes wrong. That's why you see guys going full send on them on road bikes. Natural pro lines are a completely different animal.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.
> 
> Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


That spine starting at around 1:30 is sick! Yikes! Up until then I was thinking to myself, "I bet I could ride that." Then NOPE! Haha!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DethWshBkr said:


> "Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing
> 
> One set of trails here - boring as all get out. Its all single track, and smooth. There is next to zero technical items. All smooth dirt.
> I frequent the place only because it is 8 minutes from my house, and it's a great place to get a workout, since it is so smooth.
> ...


It sorta is arbitrary, but if whoever assigns the ratings actually does so based on some kind of clear criteria, then they can at least be informative.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Harold said:


> It sorta is arbitrary, but if whoever assigns the ratings actually does so based on some kind of clear criteria, then they can at least be informative.


I've understood it is sort of like ski resorts. The ratings are only relative to the other slopes on that mountain.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> That spine starting at around 1:30 is sick! Yikes! Up until then I was thinking to myself, "I bet I could ride that." Then NOPE! Haha!


I was thinking the same thing. Then I noticed that I was hearing very little "impact" sound in the video from all the chunk and it occurred to me that the rider was probably on a really big bike, possibly a downhill bike, and that the rider was probably spending a lot of time in the air.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DethWshBkr said:


> I've understood it is sort of like ski resorts. The ratings are only relative to the other slopes on that mountain.


even moreso, I'd wager. I've ridden in a lot of places and have sampled some really technically difficult trails in many of them. They're all difficult in very different ways. Some have high consequences for failure. Others don't, but they're still really hard. Some have high speeds and big drops, and some are very slow and rely heavily on trials type skills. You just can't use the same criteria.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Harold said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Then I noticed that I was hearing very little "impact" sound in the video from all the chunk and it occurred to me that the rider was probably on a really big bike, possibly a downhill bike, and that the rider was probably spending a lot of time in the air.


On most of the trail _if_ I were able to block out the exposure on either side of me I could _probably_ roll it but the mandatory gap at 1:42 with cliff on either side is where I'd be summoning a Lyft out of there.

Not to mention that everything looks way harder in real life than on YouTube...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DethWshBkr said:


> "Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing


I was going to say that too. We have one trail here, from the old school days, that dips into a small gully and rolls back and forth down the length. There's minimal technical challenge within it but somehow the old timers rated it a black. In British Columbia it'd be a kids' trail.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Everywhere I have ridden so far, the trail ratings were relative to the area. Frustrating because the one bike park has "Double Black Diamond" on some trails that are half as bad as the DB at the other bike park. And I end up nearly running people over on those double blacks at the bigger park when people drop down a trail they shouldn't be on.

At least so far , the trails I have ridden listed as "Pro Line", they were all pretty sketchy. Still people who don't belong, but far fewer.



Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.
> 
> Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


Making my first trip out there in a couple of weeks...I think I just added this to my list of trails to ride!


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.
> 
> Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.
> 
> https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7003638/flying-monkey-trail


this is just the noob in me I guess, but how do enough people ride something like that for it to become an official trail? There can only really be a small percentage of people who can ride that...

man, I wish I could be remotely close to that level some day...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> this is just the noob in me I guess, but how do enough people ride something like that for it to become an official trail? There can only really be a small percentage of people who can ride that...
> 
> man, I wish I could be remotely close to that level some day...


The more I travel around and see what people are riding the more I appreciate that there are a lot of really talented riders out there.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> ..Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up..


love that trail. lost my bike over the side once. took me almost an hour to get it and bring it back up...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> love that trail. lost my bike over the side once. took me almost an hour to get it and bring it back up...


That's awesome.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

XCer learning jumps (not on an XC bike)


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

tweeder82o said:


> XCer learning jumps (not on an XC bike)


I should learn how to do that...

Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

AlbertHenry said:


> I should learn how to do that...
> 
> Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???


The heavy bike will have plusses and minuses. Namely it will need more energy to be input for the same result. That can lead to it being more stable but also more difficult to move around when airborne. Flat pedals will actually force you to learn with the correct technique.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The heavy bike will have plusses and minuses. Namely it will need more energy to be input for the same result. That can lead to it being more stable but also more difficult to move around when airborne. Flat pedals will actually force you to learn with the correct technique.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


So I have to go faster and/or lift the front wheel harder? 
And while in the air, to sort of maintain the trajectory of the bike, is it necessary to grip hard and lock one's wrists?
And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.

Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

AlbertHenry said:


> So I have to go faster and/or lift the front wheel harder?
> And while in the air, to sort of maintain the trajectory of the bike, is it necessary to grip hard and lock one's wrists?
> And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.
> 
> Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.


Maybe a little faster, maybe. No, don't yank on the front wheel per se. It's more to do with the stomp that is one fluid motion of loading front then rear as you approach the lip and unloading on the lip.

You should never be stiff or "locked" in the air that leads to bad things. You weigh more than the bike it's not going to fall away from you unless you do something horribly wrong.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> I should learn how to do that...
> 
> Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???


You do have to have developed some sort of comfort level riding flat pedals.

Bike weight has very little to do with jumping.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

AlbertHenry said:


> Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.


definitely good to think about it, even if you don't think you're at the point where you'd want to try it out on the trail.

but all theory and no hands-on can only get you so far. you'd learn quicker and get comfortable quicker if you mix in hands-on with online learning. because the information that you've gathered thus far (from youtube, books, articles, forums..etc) will register in a different way once you've had some hands-on time

start with a curb, keep riding off of it and just spend 15 mins trying different things (that wrist thing you were talking about, how speed affects the bike, or just to see how the pedals react). that's all it takes to get you started. get fully padded up if it helps.

and once you've done that, you'll likely come up with a second round of questions to research. that's when you come back online and either ask new questions and re-read the stuff you've already read to see if anything new jumps out at you.

rinse and repeat


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.


There are ways to keep your feet connected to the pedals in the air when you want. It's just a technique thing. But note that with more advanced jumping, that the riders oftentimes purposely remove their feet from the pedals. So it's not that big of a deal.

And like slapheadmofo says, you need to work on the skills necessary to ride with platform pedals and be fairly comfortable with that, anyway, before you go jumping with them.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.


I recommend some legit skills instruction. At your level, jumping won't be part of it, in all honesty, but the skills you'll be working on will be the same ones you'd eventually need to use for jumping.

You can take classes in person, but there are also some online options.

ryanleechconnection.com is a good one that breaks down larger skills into smaller, more attainable things for you to work on. Watch the video(s), then go outside and practice. Record yourself, ask questions, get feedback from other coaches. There's a 30 day flat pedal challenge lesson that would be really good to give you the foundation to get comfortable on your pedals. And yeah, he has one on jumping, too, for when you're ready.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Harold said:


> But note that with more advanced jumping, that the riders oftentimes purposely remove their feet from the pedals. So it's not that big of a deal.


Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.

I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.
> 
> I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.


I'm not sure if they do or not. Would make sense if there was some sort of gadget that did that.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Nat said:


> Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.
> 
> I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.


They over tighten them. It was either Cam or T Mac that forgot to do that once so used a diaper to get through the segment he was shooting.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

AlbertHenry said:


> I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?





Le Duke said:


> The only thing I've seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep in mind the rating is compared to other trails in the area and not consistent from one location to another.

We have a bike park here in VA, love the place but it could be ridden on a hardtail and it has black diamond trails. Transplant these out west and they might make blue.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> They over tighten them. It was either Cam or T Mac that forgot to do that once so used a diaper to get through the segment he was shooting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Yeah, that's where I heard of it! It was one of Cam Mac's videos where they were racing around the neighborhood.

Here's the Crank Stopper product:
https://revolutionproducts.co.nz/products/transition-crank-stopper

Speaking of whom, a couple of months ago I was getting ready to send it down one of our local jump trails. I got my full face on, pads, Strava, totally gnar core...

As I'm just about to go Cam and his friends rolled up (this was the week of the Black Sage and Marzocchi Proving Grounds Red Bull Rampage qualifier events here in Central Oregon). I slinked my elderly ass out of there, tail between my legs and hid in the bushes.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Another funny story, this spring I went to another riding area nearby known for its serious technical jump line. When I got there Carson Storch was just finishing up riding and filming. There was a big film crew there with professional looking camera equipment doing their thing. 

I’m farting around on the trail warming up to some doubles and noticed a couple of the crew looking over. I pretty much just froze up and waited for them to leave, lol. Didn’t want them to witness my weekend warrior mad skillz!


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Maybe a little faster, maybe. No, don't yank on the front wheel per se. It's more to do with the stomp that is one fluid motion of loading front then rear as you approach the lip and unloading on the lip.
> 
> You should never be stiff or "locked" in the air that leads to bad things. You weigh more than the bike it's not going to fall away from you unless you do something horribly wrong.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style? Maybe one style suits a certain type of jump better than another?



tweeder82o said:


> definitely good to think about it, even if you don't think you're at the point where you'd want to try it out on the trail.
> 
> but all theory and no hands-on can only get you so far. you'd learn quicker and get comfortable quicker if you mix in hands-on with online learning. because the information that you've gathered thus far (from youtube, books, articles, forums..etc) will register in a different way once you've had some hands-on time
> 
> ...


 Will do. In fact, I can lift the wheel onto the curb now quite nicely.



Harold said:


> I recommend some legit skills instruction. At your level, jumping won't be part of it, in all honesty, but the skills you'll be working on will be the same ones you'd eventually need to use for jumping.
> 
> You can take classes in person, but there are also some online options.
> 
> ryanleechconnection.com is a good one that breaks down larger skills into smaller, more attainable things for you to work on. Watch the video(s), then go outside and practice. Record yourself, ask questions, get feedback from other coaches. There's a 30 day flat pedal challenge lesson that would be really good to give you the foundation to get comfortable on your pedals. And yeah, he has one on jumping, too, for when you're ready.


Yes, I will start working on my skill! I'm feeling much more motivated after sharing with you guys on this forum. I'm looking at some bike radar vids on youtube now. It's just that there so many that you can get over saturated at first but I think these guys are ok.

You know what would be really useful? An exam where I can make sure I know the meaning of all the feature types, skills and techniques, and all the vocab/lingo I need to know related with mtb. I say because it all seems to be coming to me in bits and pieces and while I can read some material, an online evaluation will be so useful...


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

AlbertHenry said:


> Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style? Maybe one style suits a certain type of jump better than another?


I have seen the American bunny hop used to help get the point across in a skills class. However, over the Internet I'll say no. Some of the motions are the same but the weight shift is markedly different. And yes, the shape of the jump effects what and how technique is applied.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style?


Probably best to avoid that language. Trained, professional coaches aren't using it anymore, so the places you find that language used are mostly going to be folks who may or may not know what they're talking about.

Use the terms "level lift" or just "hop" instead of "English bunny hop" and "bunny hop" instead of "American bunny hop" for the different types. It makes sense for the terminology to be more different because the motions are also vastly different. A level lift is a pretty beginner skill that you can learn right after getting front wheel lifts and rear wheel lifts. It's entirely possible to get all three figured out in less than an hour, especially with a coach's direction.

But a bunny hop is a combination of movements that have to be timed just so in order to execute a proper bunny hop. This one will take some time to figure out the basics and quite awhile to actually get an effective one. After 20+yrs of riding, I've figured out the "bunny flop" pretty well. Still working to turn it into an actual hop.

Some people are going to disagree with me on the language part of this. But what I'm saying is based on mtb skills coach cert training and the language that they're using and standardizing.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> You know what would be really useful? An exam where I can make sure I know the meaning of all the feature types, skills and techniques, and all the vocab/lingo I need to know related with mtb. I say because it all seems to be coming to me in bits and pieces and while I can read some material, an online evaluation will be so useful...


That all comes in time if you read and think about biking enough. The lingo is ever-changing too.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nat said:


> That all comes in time if you read and think about biking enough. The lingo is ever-changing too.


Make sure you have your flat brim translator hat on, just in case!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tristan Wolf (Oct 21, 2019)

I ride XC with HT. All my jumps are clearly less than 1m (3 feet).


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Harold said:


> Probably best to avoid that language. Trained, professional coaches aren't using it anymore, so the places you find that language used are mostly going to be folks who may or may not know what they're talking about.
> 
> Use the terms "level lift" or just "hop" instead of "English bunny hop" and "bunny hop" instead of "American bunny hop" for the different types. It makes sense for the terminology to be more different because the motions are also vastly different. A level lift is a pretty beginner skill that you can learn right after getting front wheel lifts and rear wheel lifts. It's entirely possible to get all three figured out in less than an hour, especially with a coach's direction.
> 
> ...


Got it. Speaking of language/terminology, I'd think the sport would be more accurately called off-road biking since there is so much you can do without the need of a mountain.

To get these figured within an hour? All I've figured in months is that the only way I can lift the front wheel relevantly is by pulling with my arms and jumping off the pedals, running the risk of hitting my chest or face with the steering tube or missing the pedals on the way down (!) That won't lead me anywhere I guess. When getting on a curb, however, it's not like that, I step hard onto the left pedal while pushing? pulling? my left arm simultaneously.

Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare so I have to figure this out on my own with the help of course of the forum members and videos...

Anyway, maybe my bike isn't suitable for hops or wheelies in the first place. It's a 26", weighs 18kg and different from the one in the picture, mine has a 32mm stem. But seeing the distance between the BB and the rear wheel axle, I guess it falls into the "hard to do tricks with" category...

I know I know I know, you'll say it's not a real mtb and you'll encourage me to change my bike as soon as you see it but that's not an option here at the moment. I only have space for one bike and more than 90% of its use will be commuting. So far I've done the few trails I've access to nicely with it. And it's more exciting with a 26" with max tire pressure, kept that way because of the many steps on the mountain and bcz I want to avoid flat tires at all costs (hate mosquitoes).










No sag and negligible travel.

If it doesn't work for hopping, etc, it's ok. It works for the trails I ride.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> To get these figured within an hour?


Yes, within an hour, and not how you described. With some direction, you'll definitely have an "aha!" moment or two or more in the process.

Yeah, your bike will make things harder in some respects. But in others, it won't matter. It's still a bike with two wheels.

If you're motivated, you can fit two bikes into the space you have. There are lots of ways to pull it off and I've either done some of them, or seen them done, especially during my college years when people mostly lived in tiny dorm rooms.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Make sure you have your flat brim translator hat on, just in case!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I sleep with mine on. Don't you?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare


You keep saying that, but a quick Google search tells a much different story.

I'm confused...


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

AlbertHenry said:


> Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare so I have to figure this out on my own with the help of course of the forum members and videos...
> 
> Anyway, maybe my bike isn't suitable for hops or wheelies in the first place. It's a 26", weighs 18kg and different from the one in the picture, mine has a 32mm stem. But seeing the distance between the BB and the rear wheel axle, I guess it falls into the "hard to do tricks with" category...
> 
> I know I know I know, you'll say it's not a real mtb and you'll encourage me to change my bike as soon as you see it but that's not an option here at the moment. I only have space for one bike and more than 90% of its use will be commuting. So far I've done the few trails I've access to nicely with it. And it's more exciting with a 26" with max tire pressure, kept that way because of the many steps on the mountain and bcz I want to avoid flat tires at all costs (hate mosquitoes).


you're bike shouldn't matter, the things you are hoping to learn (lift wheel, tiny jumps, curbs.. etc) is do-able on any bike.

just go out and play around. empty streets, parks, parking lots... etc

I don't know how old you are, but as someone who rode bikes a lot from 5-16 years old, and just starting to ride again now in my 30s; I noticed that as a kid I tend to try and do all sorts of "stunts", I sucked but I tried, without knowing any proper technique (no internet).

But as an adult, I noticed that once I'm on the bike I tend to be more focused on getting to the destination.... no playing! no fooling around!

It's hard to say with the Japan thing, as I've found evidence of this sport in Japan. But then there are many islands in that country. So many where you are, it's hard to find fellow riders.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

tweeder82o said:


> you're bike shouldn't matter, the things you are hoping to learn (lift wheel, tiny jumps, curbs.. etc) is do-able on any bike.
> 
> just go out and play around. empty streets, parks, parking lots... etc
> 
> ...


you mentioned the whole "ignorance of youth" thing, and tryign to figure out tricks. I grew up the same way on BMX...never thought about how to something...you just did it. You knew if you failed b/c you wiped out. Then the next time, you remember wht made you lose control, There was no real analyzation.

In many ways, I try to do the same thing now at 50. I have watched videos etc, and definitely take things into consideration, but when I go to jump something, I mostly just gauge speed, pull up timing, and landing spot. And I am not doing X Games stuff, just 1 footers, or pipes at the skatepark, or jumping over root cluisters on the trail etc.

I think there is something to be said about the right combo of technique, and just doing it


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Nat said:


> Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.


A lot of guys use a bit of inner tube to keep the cranks from spinning.


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## root (Jan 24, 2006)

tweeder82o said:


> It's hard to say with the Japan thing, as I've found evidence of this sport in Japan. But then there are many islands in that country. So many where you are, it's hard to find fellow riders.


Something that would help op is to find some like minded people to ride with. That stokes progression and just plain playing around. Yes, sometimes messing around by self is good to because when riding in a group others tend to get bored and move on if youre sessioning the same move over and over and over and over and over!
Dont lose hope, theyre out there, i know there are some pretty core trials guys in Japan.
And the two best trials guys here when i was doing that started on some pretty crappy bikes. 
Seat time is important in building skills, there is no substitute. Ride lots. Videos and lessons do help better utilize the time, but you can sit around, watch a million videos, read, visualize all you want, you wont learn it for real until you ride.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Well, let's just say that this sport isn't as popular or developed here as it is in the US, Canada, or the UK... I've been scanning my memory for drops and jumps but can only find drops. Two near home and a few more at the trail. Will just have to stick with practicing drops, then. I live nearest to Minoh, which is referred to as "the mecca of mountain biking in the Kansai region" on one website and this is pretty much all the trails they have to offer according to a nearby shop. There are other trails on the mountain which one can ride but the ones highlighted here in purple are the ones you shouldn't get into trouble with the authorities by using.









There is an mtb park with a pump track west from there but it requires a membership and it opens just once a month so that kind of tells you how popular the sport is...

Then there's Kobe. The trails I take there require more skill with descending stairs but there are many trails in that area reachable by cable-car that I don't know. I just expect them to be a bit steep for my skill level.

Other miscellaneous trails I've found require (by comparison) an inordinate amount of pedaling before going off road.

But in conclusion, I'm starting to realize that there are pretty much no jumps around here. Maybe that's why the shops don't bother having real full suspension mountain bikes in stock (unlike my FS mtb which is top class department store grade).

As for finding others to ride with, I do know someone thanks to his youtube channel but haven't met yet. You see, just recently I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids at Minoh but quickly retracted by saying that I just do that on *my* bike. LOL. Riding solo, and with a "crappy" bike, one is more careful and aware of one's limitations. Or at least I am, unlike my co-worker who just wanted to impress me despite his limitations. Those were some nasty stairs for him!


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

OP is a non-Japanese (judging by his handle) living in Japan, where mountain biking would have to be a rather "underground" activity if it is illegal on all public lands. It is no wonder he has a hard time finding people to ride with.


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## kameramandan (Aug 5, 2019)

My retirement plan (2 years away) is to cash my business out, buy a house next to a ski resort in Japan, and con the resort into letting me cut trails in for summer  

Talk to you in a couple of years @AlbertHenry

EDIT: Oh, and to answer the OP question...... BECAUSE IT'S FUN


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids !


I would probably stop giving advice until you know a lot more.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> But in conclusion, I'm starting to realize that there are pretty much no jumps around here.


Well, I guess you've gone ahead and solved your original issues.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> As for finding others to ride with, I do know someone thanks to his youtube channel but haven't met yet. You see, just recently I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids at Minoh but quickly retracted by saying that I just do that on *my* bike. LOL. Riding solo, and with a "crappy" bike, one is more careful and aware of one's limitations. Or at least I am, unlike my co-worker who just wanted to impress me despite his limitations. Those were some nasty stairs for him!


I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.


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## tweeder82o (Oct 1, 2018)

have considered travelling to get your mtb fix?

check out this series, if you haven't already. i don't know, maybe some places even rent bikes?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLja0SavkyLhNtjmtWcgHqtgAYN6O6BR0L

i live in a fairly flat regioin of the US, and most mountain biking trails are tame trails. with the exception of one newly built system of flow trails with lots of bigger features and jumps. it's about a 50 minutes drive away, I often encounter other riders who've driven over 2 hours just to ride those trails.


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## root (Jan 24, 2006)

Harold said:


> I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.


But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home. 
Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

root said:


> But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home.
> Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.


That kind of rider doesn't fit the japanese stereotype at all.



Harold said:


> I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.


Accident No. 1: I was standing on the outer side of a wide staircased switchback encouraging my coworker to clear it but taking up space in the process. He had to dismount and hop on one leg but didn't fall.
Accident No. 2: Was raining hard and I stopped in the way of a commuter who was crossing some train lines that were slightly diagonal and his forward wheel slipped into one of them as he tried to go around me. 
Accident No. 3: Was taking turns with my co-worker going down some steep stairs when I suggested he use the front brakes just a little. I emphasized that each time I use the front brake in descents in the mountain I get into trouble. Problem was that I also told him that my front breaks were weak and I think he squeezed them to hard because of that...

All I know is that if that's your kind of personality, you are more likely to take unmeasured risks if accompanied.



tweeder82o said:


> have considered travelling to get your mtb fix?
> 
> check out this series, if you haven't already. i don't know, maybe some places even rent bikes?
> 
> ...


Wow, will watch. I will consider travelling once I get a-lot better because it's not worth it at my current skill level. And hey, I wouldn't mind if it's a flat region. The mere fact of going out and being surrounded by nature is enough for me. And the closer to home the better.

A little poem I came up with...

While westerners speed and jump in joy,
The asian islanders their bikes and bones don't want to destroy.
But if you decide to visit knowing that hopping you won't enjoy,
Don't be surprised if the locals are still coy,
And if you happen to have the best in airs shocks or coil,
Don't bother bringing them 'cause here it's just plain ancient soil.

And finally, because of the language and cultural barrier in this peculiar country, it's not easy to casually make the acquaintance of people in an impromptu setting even if you share the same sport, so I don't bother anymore. My co-worker, BTW, isn't local. And speaking of whom, I asked him if he can wheelie and he said yes, but not all bikes are good for that. He told me that my bike's handlebars are too low. I asked him if he could try doing it and he said yes but I later told him not to mind, you know, because of his broken ribs...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

That video series posted earlier kind of tells a different story I think.

I'd say you should get out and do some more in-depth exploring.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

root said:


> But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home.
> Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.


Sure, it happens, and I've met a few people whose first exposure to mtb involved some kind of harrowing story. I can't say that I've met anyone whose first encounter with mtb involved a broken bone or other sort of hospitalization and stuck with it, but I won't say it'll never happen. Just that it's HIGHLY unlikely. Beyond the new rider/first experience scenario, there's simply the matter of the kind of environment you foster when riding. If you're the sort of person who pressures others into doing things they might not otherwise do, you're going to end up ONLY riding with people willing to take stupid risks. If that's your thing, then so be it. But given OP's comments about how rare it is to find locals interested in mtb of any sort, I can only imagine that fostering such an atmosphere on your rides won't be doing you any favors.



AlbertHenry said:


> Accident No. 1: I was standing on the outer side of a wide staircased switchback encouraging my coworker to clear it but taking up space in the process. He had to dismount and hop on one leg but didn't fall.
> Accident No. 2: Was raining hard and I stopped in the way of a commuter who was crossing some train lines that were slightly diagonal and his forward wheel slipped into one of them as he tried to go around me.
> Accident No. 3: Was taking turns with my co-worker going down some steep stairs when I suggested he use the front brakes just a little. I emphasized that each time I use the front brake in descents in the mountain I get into trouble. Problem was that I also told him that my front breaks were weak and I think he squeezed them to hard because of that...
> 
> All I know is that if that's your kind of personality, you are more likely to take unmeasured risks if accompanied.


Fact of the matter is, you were a factor in ALL of those incidents. The last one resulted in broken ribs. The second one was a very dangerous situation that could have been much worse. Crossing railroad tracks on the diagonal is sketch AF when dry. When wet? Fugeddaboutit. Stopping such that you force others around you in the middle of that scenario? Dangerous. The first was pretty much just annoying, I'm sure, but little else.

As for the last comment, I disagree. I am VERY aware of risk when I'm riding, so I'm always measuring risk. I'm willing to take a LOT less risk when I'm riding solo. I'm also willing to take more risk when I'm riding with specific people than others. Peer pressure has never been something that affects my behavior strongly. I have a tendency to dig in when peer pressure escalates. But I know that not everyone is like that. SOME people might take more unmeasured risks simply by being accompanied (peer pressure or not), but others might be completely reasonable until peer pressure is applied.

I have been in scenarios where I was present in an area ripe for these kinds of problems. One in particular comes to mind. I was riding with a friend. I was taking risks I was comfortable with, and he was taking risks he was comfortable with (beyond my comfort level, but his skill allowed him to be just fine). We were not pressuring each other at all. We had a video camera and I was recording him hitting a smallish road gap. Some younger riders on cheap bikes who looked like they were fairly low-skilled showed up on this trail and I hid the video camera. I didn't want it to be a factor in peer pressure. I also verbally pointed out that this was a spot that required lots of skill and that if they had any doubts whatsoever, they should skip the drop/gap. One guy did exactly that, and I gave him props for his decision, hopefully fostering an environment where it was okay to make that decision. Another guy apparently had lots more skill than I thought and he hit the gap really well. The third guy, despite my efforts (possibly because his buddy just hit it and made it look easy), tried to ride it and shouldn't have been anywhere near it. He smashed his face in the dirt road, I had to administer some first aid, and we had to take him to the hospital because it looked like a broken nose and a probable concussion.

I have more specific training in group management and evaluating other riders now than I did then (almost a decade ago), and given that, I'd probably more actively discourage that rider from attempting the gap. I've also spent lots of time riding with beginners and kids since then. When I see that someone is a lower skilled rider, and especially when they're impressionable (like kids), I don't even attempt little jumps or techy stuff that'd risk getting them over their heads and injured, because if they see me try it, they're more likely to try it (it's subtle peer pressure, but it's still pressure). So when I'm taking someone out that I want to ride with me in the future, my eye is always on having a fun ride that's not going to destroy their desire to ride with me again. If it's someone I know otherwise (and have a feeling for their personality), I might be willing to push their fitness and create memories of an epic slog, but I'm not going to push their skill beyond what they can handle into something that increases their chances of significant injury. Sure, I'll probably push them a little bit so they learn something, but that's different.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

this thread needs more jumpz!!!!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> this thread needs more jumpz!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1292607


that looks more like a huck


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

nope, just some jumpz


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> this thread needs more jumpz!!!!


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## bank5 (May 7, 2008)

Because it's fun. End of thread?

I always sucked at jumps and never did them until a skills area was put in by my house. Now I'm I'm hooked and hitting stuff I would have never thought was possible for myself. I like it way more than XC riding which I now find boring.

Getting comfortable with the bike leaving the ground is also a good skill to know as you ride more technical trails.


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## kameramandan (Aug 5, 2019)

AlbertHenry said:


> That kind of rider doesn't fit the japanese stereotype at all.


You've clearly never been snowboarding with a 20-odd year old Japanese, those kids are bloody indestructible.


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

I grew up riding bmx... building all sorts of jumps from dirt to wood, quarterpipes, pallet ramps, you name it, with my brothers in the back yard. I haven't been on a bmx bike in 10+ years but now that I've gotten into mtb I actually don't have much of a desire to 'jump' things anymore. Anyone else feel this way? Like been there, done that as a teenager, and mtn biking, in my opinion, no matter how gnar will never be as cool as an FBM video. These days, I like the variety of terrain, enjoying the landscape, and would rather channel 'jumping' into working on endurance for longer distance. I think a lot of the 'skills' people always talk about working on pertain to people with deep wallets who get into biking later on. If you haven't jumped a sketchy pallet ramp on a cobbled together bmx bike as a teenager, I feel like it's way harder to work on later on but still have to prove yourself amongst peers (and the learning curve is steeper) - but if you developed this earlier those 'skills' are somewhat innate at this point.

What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping, even myself, as I'm comfortable knowing I probably could have gone bigger years ago!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

loren90 said:


> ...What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping...


too bad you're all caught up in it everywhere else...


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I'm in my early-mid 30's, and have been "into" mountain biking for about a year now.

I have a background in "trail riding" dirt bikes (no motocross), and rode bikes a lot as a kid, like many here. I'm pretty comfortable in most fairly rough terrain, but I'm garbage in the air, as I had no practice with that in my past), enough so that I feel it is my "clear weak point" at the moment.

I'm currently trying to work on my ability/comfort level in the air. Part of it is that it *is *enjoyable to do it correctly, and I like learning how to do new things. So I see why many trails feature jumps, or at least have optional ones.

But at least half of the reason I am interested in learning to do them better, is I feel like my inability to do much other than dead-sailor off a jump, is holding back both my enjoyment of trails I currently ride, but also that many of the trails that look fun to me otherwise (mostly black trails, but some blues as well) have mandatory jumps/drops.

I'd like to skill up enough in the jump/drop area, to be able to comfortably ride most "normal" back trails. I have no desire to ride Rampage, or anything else crazy. But I'd like to be able to ride the widest array of trails in my area, without feeling like my life is on the line.

So while I'm not made of magic and rubber anymore like I was when I was 17, I'm also not into the "ceramic bone" structure timeframe of my life either though, so I'm trying to skill up while I can, so I can comfortably ride my way into retirement, without feeling confined to only green/blue trails.

And, as for why trails have jumps? I mean, I'd wager its mostly the fun/achivement feeling you have when you do them correctly. I think some of why it exists though, is simply that it can, and is feasible.

Compared to trail dirt biking, which covers huge distances, and the weight/power of the bikes is relatively destructive to a built dirt jump, mountain bikes can actually pretty easily sustain manmade features like jumps. IMO, this is because you really only see features like jumps/drops built into descending trails (less mileage covered/to improve/build features on), and also because once built, it will last a long time with very low maintenance.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> too bad you're all caught up in it everywhere else...


Was thinking the same.

I don't know anyone that goes out and jumps their bike because they're trying to out-cool sponsored pros in a BMX video. People jump their bikes cuz it's fun. I feel bad for those who've lost touch with that already.


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## bank5 (May 7, 2008)

ocnLogan said:


> I'm currently trying to work on my ability/comfort level in the air. Part of it is that it *is *enjoyable to do it correctly, and I like learning how to do new things. So I see why many trails feature jumps, or at least have optional ones.


I'm similar, almost 40 and never really jumped after riding my bike for about 12 years. Now I can ride some advanced jumps lines with some pretty good drops and doubles. What helped me a lot was switching to flat pedals. And starting small, I mean real small where you barely catch air. But keep sessioning until you are super comfortable with the jump. Then work your way to a slightly bigger jump and do the same. Practice enough and you'll get pretty comfortable catching air.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> cuz it's fun


exactly. it's why anybody does anything...


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Was thinking the same.
> 
> I don't know anyone that goes out and jumps their bike because they're trying to out-cool sponsored pros in a BMX video. People jump their bikes cuz it's fun. I feel bad for those who've lost touch with that already.


Eh, more of the vibe I guess? - like only riding certain trails, as fast as possible, jumping as much as possible, mashing the brakes for dirt spraying, etc. Strava, go pro, capturing airs for instagram type crowd. Then they are the first ones to act weirdly judgmental for those of us who enjoy all types of riding, not just the Whistler-esque enduro stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love 'jumps' but the bro-ification, high five, yelling, cheering people on and hyping people up to 'send it' drive me nuts.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

how does you professing only the opposite make you any different?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

loren90 said:


> What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping, even myself, as I'm comfortable knowing I probably could have gone bigger years ago!





loren90 said:


> Eh, more of the vibe I guess? - like only riding certain trails, as fast as possible, jumping as much as possible, mashing the brakes for dirt spraying, etc. Strava, go pro, capturing airs for instagram type crowd. Then they are the first ones to act weirdly judgmental for those of us who enjoy all types of riding, not just the Whistler-esque enduro stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love 'jumps' but the bro-ification, high five, yelling, cheering people on and hyping people up to 'send it' drive me nuts.


Hey man, you're being pretty judgmental there.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.

All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!

Does anyone else feel this way or consider this when deciding where to go mountain-biking? Maybe there's a name for it like "organic mountain biking" or something...

And second question: Do you know of any trailforks equivalent or online directory for skill parks? Whether global or local, mtb exclusive or not, it doesn't matter.

Hey, Sam Pilgrim was in Tokyo recently and this video is just crazy!


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> how does you professing only the opposite make you any different?


Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:

1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).

2) It creates people taking unnecessary risk and injury. It's cool to eat **** when you're a teen, not so much as an adult - and I'm not sure why people need to push other adults (especially if they lack the basic skillset developed over time) to hit large obstacles leading to unnecessary injury. I've witnessed this happen, and I'm sure others on here have too.

and 3) I think it also creates a slight barrier to new people wanting to get into mtn biking, but have the idea that all mtn bikers are like said Red bull-esque people I describe. I've talked to many people like this. A lot of the fun is just getting outside on a bike, and if you're new, the fact that you can peddle yourself up a small hill, and go down a trail even if it's easy. Not conquering all these steep jumps and features, and I think some new people feel a barrier to this when trying to go with friends/bike group who are at a higher level and don't care to go down 'easier' trails that lack all of their aerial maneuvering features.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.
> 
> All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!
> 
> ...


AlbertHenry, you were earlier saying how where you live there aren't any legal mountain bike trails. How in the heck are you complaining about there being too many man-made features on mountain bike trails??? Why do you feel you get to rant about it? You haven't been mountain biking enough yet to be complaining.



loren90 said:


> Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:
> 
> 1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).
> 
> ...


WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

the only thing I consider when biking is if the trail is too wet to ride on and will get damaged. I then decide whether the content of the trail is at my level

if I get on a trail, and find out parts are above my level, I will either walk/go around them, or, will try to hit them if they are within my developing skill set.

to me, jumps, obstacles etc are just part of it. Doesn't matter if they are man-made or not, since really, anytime you ride a bike through the woods, it is a man made trail.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.
> 
> All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!


Different strokes, man. I like lots of types of trails and certain kinds don't fit well in some areas. I live in a place with tons of public land and hundreds of miles of mtb trails accessible nearby. We have TONS of backcountry trails available with very little "built" features in the trails. The vast, vast majority of all trails (even the hiking trails) are on old logging roads, though. They HAVE to be maintained or they become a right mess, which we see now. This area is a legit temperate rain forest with occasional tropical storm impacts. The occasionally massive amounts of rain will annihilate a trail in short order. It doesn't matter if the trail is a narrow ribbon of backcountry singletrack or if it's a newer-gen trail with jumps built into it. They'll both get destroyed without maintenance.

As for your "escape civilization" rant, it just depends. If you are in an urban environment with LOTS of people, land managers will sometimes want to give recreation experiences as a priority, and sometimes land managers will want to target solitude and escape experiences. True backcountry environments where you get away from civilization often require lots of cultivation, especially if the land in question is near places where people live. The places where I ride, sure, offer some backcountry experiences, but you're usually not as far away from civilization as you think you are. So we see a bit of a mix of riding options. There are certain areas closest to built environments that get massive visitation. On those trails, you're more likely to see built jumps and such. If you want a backcountry experience, you've gotta work for it. Oftentimes pretty hard.



Nat said:


> WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.


I dunno, I'd rather ride with people who are happy and encouraging of each other than with some curmudgeons who are standoffish and grumpy all the time. I've gone on rides where 50+yr old beginner rider women are high-fiving each other because they pedALed up a small hill or rode over a root for the first time. That's rad and I am stoked to do rides like that because I like seeing people have fun and feel like kids again.

I'm very measured about the risks I'm willing to take. That's great for me, and if other riders want to take bigger risks by doing bigger jumps and going faster, that's great for them. I might ride with them (and I have) if they're a fun and welcoming group. I might not ride with them (and I've done this, too) if they don't accommodate other types of riders in their group well. By that, I'm mostly referring to how they accommodate slower riders, or those with less skill. There's room for all of us on the trail, and all I really care about is whether they're friendly, follow good trail etiquette, and treat the trails (and the people who maintain them) with respect.

I REALLY don't care if riders like to jump more or less than I do (ride how you like), or if they like to high-five each other at the trailhead, or after sessioning something, or whatever. That's all pretty innocuous behavior, and I'm not going to piss on their parade if they're happy or excited about something.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

loren90 said:


> Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:
> 
> 1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).
> 
> 2) It creates people taking unnecessary risk and injury. It's cool to eat **** when you're a teen, not so much as an adult - and I'm not sure why people need to push other adults (especially if they lack the basic skillset developed over time) to hit large obstacles leading to unnecessary injury. I've witnessed this happen, and I'm sure others on here have too.


LOL! Most of the guys I ride with are in their 40-50-60s and do all the same ****. And the guys that do the most 'regular' XC style riding are also the same guys that hit the biggest jumps, including guys well into their 50's that send it big on pro lines and regularly podium at regional DH and Enduro events.

Maybe you just aged out early? Have you discovered the joys of long solo gravel-grinds or bikepack missions yet? Sounds like that might be more to your taste.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> Doesn't matter if they are man-made or not, since really, anytime you ride a bike through the woods, it is a man made trail.


all you naysayers, think about that one for a minute...

(insert mind blown gif here)


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Could be a deer path.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

but it isn't..


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

On closing day, I was hucking and jumping every "Pro Line" at Mammoth. Earlier this week, I was riding my gravel bike on smooth XC trails in the mountains. 

There isn't a wrong way to ride your bike. Just STFU and ride YOUR bike.

If you don't want to jump, don't follow me. If you don't want to suffer on climbs, don't follow me. Actually, just don't follow me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sidewalk said:


> There isn't a wrong way to ride your bike. Just STFU and ride YOUR bike.


Yup, that.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

It's unfortunate that people having fun would really bother someone that much. Definitely going to want to steer clear of my riding crew as high fives and stoke is pretty much guaranteed.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

My riding buddies and I are usually quite chill.

That said, if someone has progressed to a feature they've not ridden before, we'll get a bit of "stoke on", up to, and sometimes including high fives, or saying things like "nice work, you did it man".

I can _kind _of understand how someone could be annoyed at frequent/over the top stuff like that, _especially _if other actions are damaging the trail system, or they're otherwise being rude/discourteous. But, personally, assuming "they" are being otherwise good humans, I'm not bugged at all by people being excited about doing something well.

The first time I cleared a true gap jump, I actually let out a yell ("WOOO!") of excitement/relief, that I honestly don't know if I could have contained. So I try to be understanding of similar "outbursts" from others as well. And actually, if someone does something like that near me, I'll often tell the "Congratulations" or "well done!" as well.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> The first time I cleared a true gap jump, I actually let out a yell ("WOOO!") of excitement/relief, that I honestly don't know if I could have contained. So I try to be understanding of similar "outbursts" from others as well. And actually, if someone does something like that near me, I'll often tell the "Congratulations" or "well done!" as well.


Dammit, man, didn't you know you're supposed to be completely straightlaced when you're riding bikes? I mean, come on, there's no way at all you can have fun or achieve a sense of accomplishment after working hard at something.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Harold said:


> Dammit, man, didn't you know you're supposed to be completely straightlaced when you're riding bikes? I mean, come on, there's no way at all you can have fun or achieve a sense of accomplishment after working hard at something.


Crap.

It wasn't on the signs at the trailhead, how could I have known!

If I promise to work on that in the future, can I keep riding? If not, I'll show myself out...


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

ocnLogan said:


> Crap.
> 
> It wasn't on the signs at the trailhead, how could I have known!
> 
> If I promise to work on that in the future, can I keep riding? If not, I'll show myself out...


Next time when your buddy does something that makes you feel excited or happy, there's no need to raise your voice. Why not send a nice card instead?


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

karthur said:


> When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!


Yeah, that's the spirit! Errr, I mean, no. Nevermind. Forget I said that or even acknowledged your presence. I'll just go meditate for a while. Alone, in silence.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

GeePhroh said:


> Next time when your buddy does something that makes you feel excited or happy, there's no need to raise your voice. Why not send a nice card instead?


In all seriousness though, this comment cracked me up, nice work!

The thought of carrying around a candle, some parchment, and a crest/mark to make a proper "seal" of melted wax, to write a proper thank you note mid ride, gave me a good chuckle.

Maybe I'll do that sometime if my buddies and I ride on April 1st, or Halloween, or something like that. Hauling the supplies along would be worth the laughs.

Something like this...



> "Dear RaginTxn <one of my riding buddies paid to have this engraved on his grips, so its his preferred handle>
> 
> It has come to my attention that you have increased your skill level, and overmatched a trail feature that you had hitherto failed to conquer.
> 
> ...


And, I do agree that "general loudness" isn't always appreciated (at least personally) when out in the woods. But I feel that most of the time I have observed it around here, its just good natured excitement for doing something they (or I) haven't done before. So when its that kind of noise, it doesn't bother me (at least when biking... if its after dark and I'm camping/backpacking... you bet it would bother me).


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

karthur said:


> When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!


Now that would be great, especially no high-fives!


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## kameramandan (Aug 5, 2019)

karthur said:


> when mtbing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!


*No soup for you!!*


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> if its after dark and I'm camping/backpacking... you bet it would bother me).


Mental note: don't go hit jump lines after dark where people have set up their tents. I don't think that'll be a problem.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I don’t mind the odd exclamation of pleasure, or two. Whatever. 

But, I was riding recently and due to some weird acoustics (valley), I could hear some dude (turned out to be a group of three) hooting and hollering every 15-20 seconds. It got to be a bit much. I couldn’t decide if I wanted to press a bit harder and get by them sooner, or just stop and let them get far enough in front to not hear them anymore. I opted on the former and ended up scaring the **** out of them when I rang my bell to pass. Oddly enough, they stopped after I said hello and bid them good day. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Nat said:


> AlbertHenry, you were earlier saying how where you live there aren't any legal mountain bike trails. How in the heck are you complaining about there being too many man-made features on mountain bike trails??? Why do you feel you get to rant about it? You haven't been mountain biking enough yet to be complaining.
> 
> WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.


Yeah, it doesn't make sense. You see, I was absolutely comfortable with knowing that I was not going to be intentionally lifting any wheels from the ground. Then, I started watching videos and participating in this forum and got encouraged to at least try a little. Then, I realized that I don't have the trails, skill parks, equipment, peers, coach and fearlessness that it takes. So I am kind of upset now, you see.

The man-made trails versus natural trails is another topic. I understand now thanks to @harold that all trails have to be maintained so OK. That's all right. I just personally prefer that the trail were as natural as possible. And I shouldn't have edited out the word rant when I shortened the post. It was a bit longer and had some dark humor.

I do want to clarify that I while I' not the most affable person alive, unless I'm with ppl of my nationality, I do not discourage others to have fun. I am, however, feeling down and yes, envious bcz others live so much nearer to so much more nature and trails. And tragically I can't just move.

And finally, my forks are too damaged to take to the mountain and I've been waiting a month and a half for the new forks to arrive so that's adding to the frustration. Once I get those forks you probably won't be hearing much from me on this forum anymore...

Another thought I had was that if it's true that there's QUOTE: [a] slight barrier to new people wanting to get into mtn biking, but have the idea that all mtn bikers are like said Red bull-esque people I describe. I've talked to many people like this. A lot of the fun is just getting outside on a bike, and if you're new, the fact that you can peddle yourself up a small hill, and go down a trail even if it's easy. Not conquering all these steep jumps and features, and I think some new people feel a barrier to this when trying to go with friends/bike group who are at a higher level and don't care to go down 'easier' trails that lack all of their aerial maneuvering features.

...then there's an easy fix for that inspired from those stickers newly licensed drivers have to use. I Japan they look like this:








As wikipedia puts it:
[It] is a green and yellow V-shaped symbol that new drivers in Japan must display on their cars for one year after they obtain a standard driver's license. Drivers who consider themselves beginners may continue to display the sign, even after the period of a year.[1] Like the orange and yellow "fukushi mark" or "koreisha mark" that denotes elderly drivers, the shoshinsha mark is designed to warn other drivers that the marked driver is not very skilled, either due to inexperience or old age.[2]

Trail parks, bike manufactures, bicycle shops, etc can agree to encourage the use of this "kind of" symbol (purely voluntarily) for new mountain-bikers. In this case not only to warn others, but for others not to put pressure on them and to coach them if they see fit. They can bee small stickers to put on your helmet, handlebars (to remind yourself that you're a beginner), on the headtube, etc. Bike parks can offer them for free while they promote it and then perhaps sell it. Bike manufactures can include it with the new bikes and if the bike is not intended to a newbie, it would be easier for the costumer to persuade someone else to join the sport by showing them this concept exists in the sport. Even the LBS can include them for free with the purchase of a new bike or otherwise sell them. It's a win-win for everyone.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

We can tell when someone is a beginner. No sticker needed.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> ...but for others not to put pressure on them and to coach them if they see fit.


Not only does it become pretty clear pretty quickly who the beginners are, it's just bad form to put pressure on ANYONE you don't know. It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.

So, if you encounter riders you don't know, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you strike up a mutually enjoyable conversation and decide you're at least sorta okay with each other, then maybe you can move on to other things. Me, I think putting actual labels on people is bad precedent to follow.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Harold said:


> Not only does it become pretty clear pretty quickly who the beginners are, it's just bad form to put pressure on ANYONE you don't know. It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.
> 
> So, if you encounter riders you don't know, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you strike up a mutually enjoyable conversation and decide you're at least sorta okay with each other, then maybe you can move on to other things. Me, I think putting actual labels on people is bad precedent to follow.


Look, I don't want to start a debate but just a few remarks:
1) When does encouragement become pressure? And not everyone is sensible enough to realize that just holding a camera is a form of pressure. If we used these stickers the most mature guy in the group can keep things good or the beginner remind himself of his limitations.

2) And this one is important: What if you encounter three kids sessioning two consecutive 1 to 2 foot drops with their weight on the saddle? We know that's dangerous. Do you smile, wave and go your merry own way? Or you see a dude with his saddle pointing downwards ready to hit a downhill slope? In your defense I noted you used the word "generally".

3) And I totally thought of that labeling part. But the law requires these labels for new drivers, the military uses them, and in the sport called karate, participants are "labelled" with different colored belts. I know this isn't an such an institutionalized sport but mountain-bikers can adopt the logo of the trail difficulty they can clean instead for all I care. But I'm not advocating for these stickers especially since I've never been among mountain-bikers to begin with. I'm just sharing this idea.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Lol...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harold said:


> It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.


I dunno, I tend to give obviously novice riders a few pointers at our pumptrack pretty regularly. Not something that seems to happen on the trails though.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

i give people advice all the time, it's upon them to listen to it or not. i'm not offended if they don't. i also encourage others to try to do something i know they can do that they think they can't. be it a jump, drop, steep tech chute or anything else that unnecessarily intimidates them. they can also listen or not. sure there have been some crashes, but mostly it's all smiles. nobody wants anyone to get hurt, i'm out there to have fun and want everyone else to have fun too...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Imma slap noob stickers on everyone who needs it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Look, I don't want to start a debate but just a few remarks:
> 1) When does encouragement become pressure? And not everyone is sensible enough to realize that just holding a camera is a form of pressure. If we used these stickers the most mature guy in the group can keep things good or the beginner remind himself of his limitations.
> 
> 2) And this one is important: What if you encounter three kids sessioning two consecutive 1 to 2 foot drops with their weight on the saddle? We know that's dangerous. Do you smile, wave and go your merry own way? Or you see a dude with his saddle pointing downwards ready to hit a downhill slope? In your defense I noted you used the word "generally".
> ...


Let's just call it Interacting With Others 101. I'm not even being mountain bike specific at this point.

In case 1, if you don't know the other rider, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you begin to have additional conversations about other things, then the scope of the conversations and the comments you make to each other can change. It's very creeper to interject encouragement to people out of the blue. I see people do this, and it's very weird.

In case 2, you STFU unless there's a clear and present serious safety problem. People are allowed to make their own mistakes. The stuff you mention ranks to me as minor mistakes people are allowed to make for themselves, and not clear and present safety problems.

For the last one, just no.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Have you seen guys at the gym giving unsolicited advice to others? It's kind of intrusive. I guess with biking at depends on the scenario, context, and delivery but in general I only give advice if someone seems to be asking me.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> I dunno, I tend to give obviously novice riders a few pointers at our pumptrack pretty regularly. Not something that seems to happen on the trails though.





.WestCoastHucker. said:


> i give people advice all the time, it's upon them to listen to it or not. i'm not offended if they don't. i also encourage others to try to do something i know they can do that they think they can't. be it a jump, drop, steep tech chute or anything else that unnecessarily intimidates them. they can also listen or not. sure there have been some crashes, but mostly it's all smiles. nobody wants anyone to get hurt, i'm out there to have fun and want everyone else to have fun too...


I've lost count of the times I've seen people give horrible advice unsolicited. Sometimes it's been given to me. The absolute worst I've seen was one day when I was out doing a long ride with my wife. She was pretty beat and working hard to make the last push to the end of the ride. Any experienced rider knows how sloppy we can all be with our most basic skills when we get tired. Some guy rode up and thought he was being helpful by giving my wife some advice on her riding. There was no conversation prior to it. Just some random guy on the trail who saw my wife riding for maybe 30sec before he opened his mouth. Totally uncalled for, though. She did not need a reminder that she was exhausted and riding sloppy. She wasn't crashing or hurting herself.

Talking to others when you're at the pumptrack or when you're stopped on the trail sessioning something together is a very different scenario than the one where some random dude observed 30sec of someone else's multi-hour ride and thought that saying anything more than "hello" or "mind if I pass?" was a good idea. it's also VERY different if you're giving advice to people you know.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to this than others because I've been called out for doing it in the past. But it's not just me, either, and it's not just with bikes. I'm not saying "don't ever" do these things. I'm saying to be sensitive to situations where saying something is very much unwelcome.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> Have you seen guys at the gym giving unsolicited advice to others? It's kind of intrusive. I guess with biking at depends on the scenario, context, and delivery but in general I only give advice if someone seems to be asking me.


Exactly this.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harold said:


> Talking to others when you're at the pumptrack or when you're stopped on the trail sessioning something together is a very different scenario than the one where some random dude observed 30sec of someone else's multi-hour ride and thought that saying anything more than "hello" or "mind if I pass?" was a good idea. it's also VERY different if you're giving advice to people you know.
> 
> Maybe I'm more sensitive to this than others because I've been called out for doing it in the past. But it's not just me, either, and it's not just with bikes. I'm not saying "don't ever" do these things. I'm saying to be sensitive to situations where saying something is very much unwelcome.


Yup, agreed.

I've gotten lots of great unsolicited advice from strangers in DJ/PT/park situations, mainly from kids that notice me flailing at attempting something over and over. They'll come over and give a general sort of 'hey, try it this way' and many times it's paid off for me. Of course, it pays off to be sure it's something they can actually do themselves first.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Didn't the OP say they were pretty new at riding mountain bikes. I am not sure if you are newer you should be giving random strangers advice. Also for someone who lives where there is no mountain biking, there sure seem to be a lot of mountain bikers around...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...


Let's test it: You should shut your mouth. Nobody cares for your opinion.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

93EXCivic said:


> Didn't the OP say they were pretty new at riding mountain bikes. I am not sure if you are newer you should be giving random strangers advice. Also for someone who lives where there is no mountain biking, there sure seem to be a lot of mountain bikers around...


Yep on both counts.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> In all seriousness though, this comment cracked me up, nice work!
> 
> The thought of carrying around a candle, some parchment, and a crest/mark to make a proper "seal" of melted wax, to write a proper thank you note mid ride, gave me a good chuckle.
> 
> ...


oooh...that would all fit nicely in a Relevate gas tank bag....


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...


was sort of thinking this as well...

and I don't mind unsolicited advice either...being a golfer, that happens A LOT on the course - probably more than any other place I can think of. You get used to just smiling and nodding.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> Let's test it: You should shut your mouth. Nobody cares for your opinion.


solid advice. let's high five bro...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> solid advice. let's high five bro...


Okay good job. Up high.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

So, I was thinking about this a bit more.

Labeling riders is an interesting idea... but I think its one that would be incredibly hard to pull off (enforcement/etc). As basically you're talking about a biking license test, and/or different skill level licenses.

Instead, mountain biking has done the reverse. We label the trails by difficulty/description. So people have to "police" themselves, and choose trails that are appropriate to their skill level. 

If they decide to go down a freeride/jump trail that is way above their skill level, they may crash and get hurt (which is unfortunate/sad), but there really isn't much you can do about it, imo, without investing considerably more resources into enforcing stuff.

Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.


That's the idea behind the "squirrel catcher" at the entrance to very hard trails. If you can't ride the opening feature then you should turn around right then and there.


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

Nat said:


> Okay good job. Up high.


Hey -- pipe the f'k down, you two! I'm trying to enjoy the quiet serenity of this thread. Serious business happening here.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

GeePhroh said:


> Hey -- pipe the f'k down, you two! I'm trying to enjoy the quiet serenity of this thread. Serious business happening here.


Yewwwwwww!!!


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Nat said:


> That's the idea behind the "squirrel catcher" at the entrance to very hard trails. If you can't ride the opening feature then you should turn around right then and there.


Oh, good point. I hadn't even thought about/remembered that. Must be because I am still very much an intermediate rider, and don't inspect the entrances to most black/double black trails yet.

Also, didn't know they were called that in mountain biking. In offroading (jeeps/4x4's/etc) we called them "gatekeepers", but they served the same exact purpose.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> So, I was thinking about this a bit more.
> 
> Labeling riders is an interesting idea... but I think its one that would be incredibly hard to pull off (enforcement/etc). As basically you're talking about a biking license test, and/or different skill level licenses.
> 
> ...


good points...the trails/activity will force people to live within their own reality in a way. I.E. : I would like to THINK that I can ride a trail with moderate jumps and features, but when it comes down to doing it, reality and common sense reminds me that I am just an old guy falling off of the bike in the woods, and I then learn to live in that world.

The other thing I think it does is it forces those who want to got to the next level to develop the skills to do it. To become honest.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.


I know a couple spots where they do something like this (Slopestyle course at Highland and the 'pro' jump trail at Thunder).


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> I know a couple spots where they do something like this (Slopestyle course at Highland and the 'pro' jump trail at Thunder).


Do they have an exam where they watch you before you get a license or something?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> Oh, good point. I hadn't even thought about/remembered that. Must be because I am still very much an intermediate rider, and don't inspect the entrances to most black/double black trails yet.
> 
> Also, didn't know they were called that in mountain biking. In offroading (jeeps/4x4's/etc) we called them "gatekeepers", but they served the same exact purpose.


The folks I know usually call them "Qualifiers" or "Filters" but the thing is that they often only exist on fairly recently built trails where mtb riding is at least part of the intent of the trail, if not the major intent. I've been on quite a few trails where the entrance looks pretty innocuous but the "oh ****" mandatory insanity spot occurs halfway through or maybe not until you're even deeper into the trail.

I ended up on one double black trail that I didn't know was double black because of crappy maps and zero signage on the ground even for the easier stuff, and the entrance didn't look like anything special. It wasn't until I was halfway down it and committed to the route that I found the stuff that was over my head and forced me to walk. Ride enough places and it'll happen eventually, and that's why filters/qualifiers/squirrel catchers/gatekeepers exist.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.


A number of bike parks are going all-in on hiring teams of coaches so they can work on skills with riders. Makes sense that for certain stuff they'd make a training requirement or skills test required in order to ride the hardest of the hard stuff. But bike parks are a very different environment than public trails at your local parks. Most days I go out riding and I don't see a single employee of the land management agency. In all honesty, I rode all season and I saw ONE employee out in the woods, a law enforcement ranger that was checking out to see if motos had been poaching gated roads and trails.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Harold said:


> The folks I know usually call them "Qualifiers" or "Filters" but the thing is that they often only exist on fairly recently built trails where mtb riding is at least part of the intent of the trail, if not the major intent.


I believe we were talking specifically about bike parks, so it would be a trail dedicated to bikes. I can't recall seeing a squirrel catcher on a public trail out west. Are they common out in your neck of the woods?

Edit: I just thought of one. Unemployment Line at Galbraith outside of Bellingham, WA has a wood bridge drop-in to start things off. I think I recall seeing a ride-around though.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Now that I think about it, the only place I've seen that has "gatekeeper" obstacles near me is Duthie hill. HLC line in particular has a clearly marked entry drop (that is pretty large... I think its one of the largest drops in the park), and a big sign saying not to go around it.

A while back there was a ride-around in place, but they recently closed it off, likely to keep people from getting in trouble further down the trail.

And its interesting to see that some of the bike parks/lift access areas are investing more in skill coaches. I've only been to Stevens Pass once, and don't recall seeing any coaches, but perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough. A skills pass/license could be useful for some of the truly dangerous thing.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> I believe we were talking specifically about bike parks, so it would be a trail dedicated to bikes. I can't recall seeing a squirrel catcher on a public trail out west. Do they have them out in your neck of the woods?


Sometimes. One is a compact city park that's sortof bike-parky (Tannery Knob in Johnson City, TN). Another is Schooner Trace in Brown County State Park in Indiana. Another is the short downhill line at Southwestway Park in Indianapolis, IN. All three use fairly gnarly rock waterfall features at the start of the trails because of either additional mandatory gnar later on down the trail, or because of big jumps (Southwestway Park).

Pisgah and Dupont don't really have them. Almost all the trails in Pisgah are old (sometimes VERY old) logging roads and footpaths, so nothing of the sort is intentional there. DuPont's trails are rarely harder than intermediate level, and when they are, people who are caught there and shouldn't be either turn around, walk the hard stuff, or attempt it anyway (and probably crash). There are enough spots here that are pretty much mandatory hike-a-bike for anyone that most folks almost expect it at some point on a ride.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

we don't build squirrel catchers per se on the trails, but we do build several hits in succession with no space in between where you're either all in or you're all out. all of our jump spots have squirrel catchers though...


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Batchelor Street Trails in SW MA has (had?) a trail named "Entrance Exam" near the beginning of the trail network. It had several features near the beginning of the trail that required solid Intermediate+ skills to clean. There was a sign clearly stating that if you had trouble with those features you should turn around because it was only going to get harder from that point forward. 

This was back in the days when trail builders had few concerns regarding liability, and "go arounds" were universally derided as "p**** paths." Not the most politically era of mountain biking, but it kept most riders from getting in too far over their heads. For me, it taught me not to on sight unfamiliar features, always evaluate risk versus my skill, and ultimately not hesitate once I'd committed to a line.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> we do build several hits in succession with no space in between where you're either all in or you're all out.


I like trails like that. They can be scary but if you do it right it's really rewarding. We have a new trail like that on which you have to nail the first double jump cleanly in order to have the right momentum for the next several. If you case the first one you'll case the rest. We call it, "lawyered" or "lawyering" as in case after case after case.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Mountain biking is an interesting sport regarding risk. In many instances jumping and going faster is less risky with less chance of crashing. Most trails have a flow speed that they were designed to be ridden at. Ride them slower than that and you may actually be putting yourself at greater risk. I have injured myself more on easy flow trails not jumping than I have doing crazy ass gaps.

Your presumption that keeping the wheels on the ground is safer is not neccesarily correct.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Nat said:


> Imma slap noob stickers on everyone who needs it.


LOL Liked that one!

...

And interesting thing that about "filters/qualifiers/squirrel catchers/gatekeepers" because I don't live in an area where this sport is as developed and otherwise, wouldn't know about it.



ocnLogan said:


> So, I was thinking about this a bit more.
> 
> Labeling riders is an interesting idea... but I think its one that would be incredibly hard to pull off (enforcement/etc). As basically you're talking about a biking license test, and/or different skill level licenses.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. Wouldn't hear this on a youtube video.

...

And yes, I'm new at mountain biking and now I'm actually reluctant to give any encouragement to strangers or unsolicited advice!

As a thought, and mind you, I have never been to a bike park public or private or anything like that, but could the purely voluntary use of noob stickers at the very least help people find others like them?

Edit: Added:


plummet said:


> Mountain biking is an interesting sport regarding risk. In many instances jumping and going faster is less risky with less chance of crashing. Most trails have a flow speed that they were designed to be ridden at. Ride them slower than that and you may actually be putting yourself at greater risk. I have injured myself more on easy flow trails not jumping than I have doing crazy ass gaps.
> 
> Your presumption that keeping the wheels on the ground is safer is not neccesarily correct.


I did fall last time I rode, and one of them cases was bcz I was going a tad faster than usual. But that's probably more bcz my brain is not used to the speed yet. I fell on a 90ish degrees turn with maybe five half-foot steps on it. I had to tuck my chin down to hit the ground with my helmet (!) But that was not a case of jumping vs. no jumping... So, now I'm into going slow again. But when you say that going faster is sometimes safer, can you expand a little more on that?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

AlbertHenry said:


> But when you say that going faster is sometimes safer, can you expand a little more on that?


Forward momentum often helps you clear over obstacles whereas if you are going too slow, you will stall out and fall/stop. This is easy to see if you ride over log stacks, if you don't have the speed to take you up and over, you will stop before you reach the top and fall over. Going too slow, you'll often just bounce more upwards without moving forward enough to clear the obstacles. Also, if there is a drop, if you go too slow your front end will just drop steeply, pitching you forward rather than your bike smoothly leaving the ground and staying more parallel to the landing surface and in control.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> could the purely voluntary use of noob stickers at the very least help people find others like them?


No. In all honesty, some people would take it as sarcasm, and some advanced riders would use them out of sarcasm. It really isn't a problem. There are beginner levels rides where beginners can meet each other. There are skills clinics where you are sorted based on skill (in part based on questions you answer, and in part based on how coaches at the clinic assess your skills). If you show up to an "all levels" ride, it simply becomes obvious to everyone else (based on their own observations and assessments) where your skills fall in compared to everyone else.



AlbertHenry said:


> I did fall last time I rode, and one of them cases was bcz I was going a tad faster than usual. But that's probably more bcz my brain is not used to the speed yet. I fell on a 90ish degrees turn with maybe five half-foot steps on it. I had to tuck my chin down to hit the ground with my helmet (!) But that was not a case of jumping vs. no jumping... So, now I'm into going slow again. But when you say that going faster is sometimes safer, can you expand a little more on that?
> 
> I had this happen on my last ride. A number of spots had plenty of rocks and roots. At one particular location, the descent was fairly fast, but there were waterbars/steps, it was somewhat eroded, and there were plenty of rocks poking up out of the trail. If you chose a good line, you could pick up some good speed. If you didn't, you'd need to creep down it. At one point, I took a little jump off one of the waterbars, and my line was not good. I hit the ONLY cluster of rocks in the trail downhill of the waterbar. One of my riding buddies did the same. But because we had some speed, our bikes had enough momentum to ride over the rocks. If either of us had been going slower, the rocks would have stopped our front wheel dead and we would have probably crashed unless we had low speed trials skills to hop over the rocks, which we do not.
> 
> ...


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> we don't build squirrel catchers per se on the trails, but we do build several hits in succession with no space in between where you're either all in or you're all out. all of our jump spots have squirrel catchers though...


Are these "secret" trails, or can you tell us where they are, so duffers like me don't end up on one by mistake? What sort of rating do you give them, if any?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> could the purely voluntary use of noob stickers at the very least help people find others like them?


Feel free to make one for yourself. I doubt too many people (other than yourself) would bother.

Believe me, to those of us who've been at this a long time, we can tell within an instant if a rider up ahead is a beginner. No sticker or warning label needed.

Even when a really good rider is pretending to be a rookie you can tell by their movements that they're not.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

andytiedye said:


> ..don't end up on one by mistake? What sort of rating do you give them, if any?


oh, you won't end up on any of them by mistake, but everything obviously has go around routes as not all of our friends can hit everything and we still want them to ride with us too. rating of them? everything is rampage inspired. it's a very very rare day that someone comes out and is able to do everything cleanly on the first day of sessions, and those few were legitimate name pros..


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> Feel free to make one for yourself. I doubt too many people (other than yourself) would bother.
> 
> Believe me, to those of us who've been at this a long time, we can tell within an instant if a rider up ahead is a beginner. No sticker or warning label needed.
> 
> Even when a really good rider is pretending to be a rookie you can tell by their movements that they're not.


similarly, assuming clothed identically, we can also quickly tell if it's a male or female from body positioning way off in the distance as well...


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Cool I've never been to a bike park or skills park before. So you can see if someone is a rookie, huh?

Carrying momentum, looking ahead, staying separated low and loose. I'll be practicing these more. I do remember looking ahead while going down here but you have to have A LOT of trust in your bike.
















Are you supposed to somehow memorize where it was you wanted to go?

Also, how hard should I grip my bike if I want to stay loose?

PS> That's not where I fell, and I hit my head lamp which is very loosely attached to the helmet. I wasn't going that fast. Just not used to it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Cool I've never been to a bike park or skills park before. So you can see if someone is a rookie, huh?
> 
> Carrying momentum, looking ahead, staying separated low and loose. I'll be practicing these more. I do remember looking ahead while going down here but you have to have A LOT of trust in your bike.
> 
> ...


Anyone who's been around for awhile can tell on any trail whether a rider is beginner or advanced. There's a very obvious comfort level with how people handle their bike. Those steps aren't that big of a deal. Sure, it's not what I'd expect beginners to ride or even attempt, but a solid intermediate rider should be able to negotiate that. Yes, you have to trust your bike, but it's not really an inordinate thing.

If you ride a trail REALLY REALLY often, then yeah, you might start to memorize things. But you don't want to rely on that too much because trail conditions change. No, the primary thing you need to rely on is your ability to read the trail and assess conditions on the fly. How does traction feel right now? What adjustments can you make right now to improve it? Is traction really good, and allowing you to push yourself harder? Or is it really bad, forcing you to ride even more conservatively? Is there new erosion, have the rocks moved, or are there new trees down? All these things can change in short amounts of time. The rider ahead of you can knock a rock loose, so it can be a timeframe of seconds!

Staying loose is not a question of how strong to grip the bike. I mean, sure, you need to be able to hold the bars and access your controls (brakes and shifters and anything else you've got). You can either grip too firmly or too loosely. Doing either will result in problems.

But you also need to avoid tensing up the rest of the muscles in your body. You NEED to be able to move your arms, your legs, your hips, your shoulders, and your core. But you also need to have firm control over that movement. If you don't, you'll collapse and flop around on the bike and that causes problems, too. It requires strength and stamina. That's why I (and the guys in the last video I posted) get so exhausted on that really fast and rough descent. It takes a lot of effort to CONTROL your body in situations like that.

This is why, as a beginner, you need to control your progression on the trails. It takes time to learn how to read the trail and assess conditions quickly at riding speed. It takes time to learn body positioning on the bike. It takes time to learn to smoothly control your body movements. And it takes time to learn to use all of these things at riding pace on trails that change. You've gotta keep riding, keep practicing, and take efforts that you don't get in over your head. Walking something that's a bit much for you so you can ride again tomorrow is better than crashing, injuring yourself, and having to take time off the bike.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Albert.

From the photos, its a bit hard to tell exactly how difficult those stairs are. But like Harold mentions, that to me is beyond what I'd expect any true beginner to ride. And, also, looking at it, and Harolds comment... I think I'm solidly in the intermediate category (progress?), as I think I could handle it, but it doesn't look like a total walk in the park. It really comes down to the turn radius/spacing/steepness/slickness of those stairs when turning.

As far as gripping the bike and staying loose?

Gripping the bike hard with your hands is super tiring (will cause "arm pump", where your fingers struggle to hold on, and when you let go of the bars, your fingers stay curled like they were still on the handlebar for a while, and is moderately painful). Additionally, the tight grip keeps your upper body tense, and that doesn't let the bike "dance" around under you.

I'm trying to think of how to describe the actual grip strength/force. Its definitely firm-ish, as there is no chance that your hands will slip off the bars, even when you take a decent impact/jolt. I guess its similar to how I hold a hammer, or machete when I'm using it? Too tight and my hands will hurt from the repetitive impact vibrations, too loose and it will fly out of my hands when using it.

In my experience, this "looseness" mostly comes with time on the bike, and the associated confidence that comes with it. I think I'd mostly describe it as being comfortable on the bike in the type of surrounding/situation you find yourself. If you're not comfortable on the bike, you tend to tense up, and ride more defensively (usually more weight back, and less mobile/fluid on the bike from what I can tell). And in my experience, it is just plain more difficult to ride well when you ride defensively.

And memorizing? I have ridden a number of trails quite frequently. I don't think I have them "memorized" in the traditional sense. But, I *do *have a good idea where most of the places I find more difficult are, and I'm constantly trying to find different ways to approach those areas (which, is what I'm practicing each time I'm riding down it, trying to get better).


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

It comes so naturally to both of you that I think you misunderstood the OP's comment.

I am fairly sure what the OP means about "memorizing" is that since we are supposed to be looking far ahead on the trail to "read" it, and NOT look at the front wheel, we have to not only read, but instantaneously and perfectly memorize the trail (at least short-term) so we can navigate it by dead reckoning. I can't do that either.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> So you can see if someone is a rookie, huh?


 Yes. We can "thin-slice" a person by their body language, attire, equipment, etc. and get an idea of what we might expect to encounter.



AlbertHenry said:


> you have to have A LOT of trust in your bike.


That's why one should buy good quality equipment and take care of it.



AlbertHenry said:


> Are you supposed to somehow memorize where it was you wanted to go?


Memorizing a trail does help improve one's performance but having good bike skills will let you read a trail as it comes.



AlbertHenry said:


> Also, how hard should I grip my bike if I want to stay loose?


Squeeze the grips firmly but loosen the arms. If you're losing your grip then squeeze more tightly. If you're death-gripping the bars then you'll get fatigued and stiffen up prematurely. Somewhere in the middle.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

andytiedye said:


> It comes so naturally to both of you that I think you misunderstood the OP's comment.
> 
> I am fairly sure what the OP means about "memorizing" is that since we are supposed to be looking far ahead on the trail to "read" it, and NOT look at the front wheel, we have to not only read, but instantaneously and perfectly memorize the trail (at least short-term) so we can navigate it by dead reckoning. I can't do that either.


I took the comment at exactly face value, of what the words written actually mean. I didn't try reading into it as you have.

That's not how you scan the trail, though. You don't focus so far ahead and then ignore what's going on right in front of you, relying on your short-term memory of what you saw a few seconds ago.

No, no. Reading the trail involves actively keeping your view dynamic. Yes, you want to scan far ahead to see what's coming up and start planning for it, but when there's something you need to address right away, you don't want to ignore it. You don't want to focus ON that thing so much that you run into it and crash (or ride off your line and crash), but you want to focus on how you're going to get through it and where you're going to wind up after it. Sometimes, the way you ride through something will be determined by what comes AFTER it. Maybe there's something even more challenging next that requires you to plan your line multiple moves ahead. Reading the trail and scanning it are never static things.

Think of it as "now" and "next" and that you actively need to look up and down the trail between those two points.

Very often, even, the angle at which you view something will change your assessment of how to deal with it. So sure, you note that it exists far ahead of time, but you need to be prepared to change your strategy as you get closer. That requires you to look at it again when it's closer to your front wheel. And that's why for particularly vexing spots, you might also want to get off the bike and look at it from multiple angles. Why you might make multiple dummy approaches. Why you might want to watch other riders do it first. Why you might visualize everything in your head for days, weeks, or longer before you can clean it or even work up the nerve to try it.

Sometimes, the thing you need to change in order to ride a tough spot might seem counterintuitive. Having other skilled riders watch you try might help figure out what it is that you need to do. Some of the coolest rides I've done have been with other professional mtb skills coaches. Stopping to session something tough and getting high quality advice from other skilled riders is pretty sweet. Shifting up or down just one gear. Adjusting your line by ever-so-subtle amounts. Tiny shifts of your body. And then voila, you clean it like it was no problem.

Your ability to read a technical trail is going to make a big difference in how fast you can ride it. If you can't process it as fast as your legs can pedal through it, you're probably going to crash. If you can't process the trail fast enough in your mind, you either need to slow down to a speed that DOES allow you to process it or you need to stop, take the time to walk through it, assess what's going on, and plan your line, so that you have time to process it mentally. It's a skill that gets better with practice. Which means lots of riding, and it means challenging yourself by trying to ride difficult things, and it requires riding trails new to you (or at least things that are not frequently in your rotation) so you _cannot_ rely on memorizing the trail.

As much as I dislike it when people give the advice to "ride with faster riders" to get better (there's WAY more to it than that), this is one skill where riding with people _better_ than you are can help you. So long as you're riding as a group, together, you can watch them ride stuff, and they can watch you ride stuff, and you can ask questions and receive advice. Observing other riders' line choices can help you learn to make better line choices. When I do it, I almost always learn of a new way to ride something. Some line I didn't see before. And once I see it, I can't un-see it.


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

Harold said:


> I had this happen on my last ride. A number of spots had plenty of rocks and roots. At one particular location, the descent was fairly fast, but there were waterbars/steps, it was somewhat eroded, and there were plenty of rocks poking up out of the trail. If you chose a good line, you could pick up some good speed. If you didn't, you'd need to creep down it. At one point, I took a little jump off one of the waterbars, and my line was not good. I hit the ONLY cluster of rocks in the trail downhill of the waterbar. One of my riding buddies did the same. But because we had some speed, our bikes had enough momentum to ride over the rocks. If either of us had been going slower, the rocks would have stopped our front wheel dead and we would have probably crashed unless we had low speed trials skills to hop over the rocks, which we do not.


Interesting anecdote. I have one of my own that I'm applying consciously or unconsciously in this sport. I was around ten years old with my dad driving down a road and there was a Jeep in front of our 92 Corolla. Well, the exhaust pipe and/or muffler of the Jeep comes off and my dad doesn't move an inch. If anything he gripped the wheel harder since it was clear that we were going to go over the car part. Boom boom. I asked my dad why he didn't swerve around it and he told me that he could've lost control of the car. I'm applying that in this sport. If I see a better or smoother line but I have to turn to get to it I ignore it and brace for whatever terrain I have in front. I don't want to get washed out and my mind isn't as fast and I have fallen bcz it just gets overloaded. Besides, I don't mind if I loose some of what is for me excess speed though I do keep that momentum. Another funny thing that I've noticed is that I take the highest point of a drop. Maybe I'd rather go down a large step rather than a short but steep and often sideways and maybe slippery incline.



ocnLogan said:


> I'm trying to think of how to describe the actual grip strength/force. Its definitely firm-ish, as there is no chance that your hands will slip off the bars, even when you take a decent impact/jolt. I guess its similar to how I hold a hammer, or machete when I'm using it? Too tight and my hands will hurt from the repetitive impact vibrations, too loose and it will fly out of my hands when using it.
> 
> In my experience, this "looseness" mostly comes with time on the bike, and the associated confidence that comes with it. I think I'd mostly describe it as being comfortable on the bike in the type of surrounding/situation you find yourself. If you're not comfortable on the bike, you tend to tense up, and ride more defensively (usually more weight back, and less mobile/fluid on the bike from what I can tell). And in my experience, it is just plain more difficult to ride well when you ride defensively.


Perfect. So far I believe I have the grip right but I think I'm in that defensive position too much because I put so much weight back that I know I'm doing OK when I hit the rear wheel (on my 26er mind you) on those tricky descents. Or so I think. I've actually wondered, what could possibly go wrong if I'm in this position going fairly straight? I can even bail out more easily.



andytiedye said:


> It comes so naturally to both of you that I think you misunderstood the OP's comment.
> 
> I am fairly sure what the OP means about "memorizing" is that since we are supposed to be looking far ahead on the trail to "read" it, and NOT look at the front wheel, we have to not only read, but instantaneously and perfectly memorize the trail (at least short-term) so we can navigate it by dead reckoning. I can't do that either.


Yes! That's my issue. And I read Harold's reply and I think I'm doing all right except with the now and next when I'm faced with very technical descents like the one of the photo which after some sessioning, I did magically clear by looking 2-3 meters ahead but ignoring what was immediately in front. It was damn scary but I think I'll "cheat" by also looking closer to the bike next time.

I think that the looking ahead and picking a good smooth line is mostly important or vital if you want to pick up speed and I'm not at that level yet.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Harold said:


> I took the comment at exactly face value, of what the words written actually mean. I didn't try reading into it as you have.
> 
> That's not how you scan the trail, though. You don't focus so far ahead and then ignore what's going on right in front of you, relying on your short-term memory of what you saw a few seconds ago.
> 
> No, no. Reading the trail involves actively keeping your view dynamic. Yes, you want to scan far ahead to see what's coming up and start planning for it, but when there's something you need to address right away, you don't want to ignore it. You don't want to focus ON that thing so much that you run into it and crash (or ride off your line and crash), but you want to focus on how you're going to get through it and where you're going to wind up after it. Sometimes, the way you ride through something will be determined by what comes AFTER it. Maybe there's something even more challenging next that requires you to plan your line multiple moves ahead. Reading the trail and scanning it are never static things.


That makes a lot more sense, and is what I do as much as possible. I think OP and I may have misinterpreted your earlier description of "reading the trail" in the same way.



Harold said:


> Your ability to read a technical trail is going to make a big difference in how fast you can ride it. If you can't process it as fast as your legs can pedal through it, you're probably going to crash. If you can't process the trail fast enough in your mind, you either need to slow down to a speed that DOES allow you to process it or you need to stop, take the time to walk through it, assess what's going on, and plan your line, so that you have time to process it mentally. It's a skill that gets better with practice. Which means lots of riding, and it means challenging yourself by trying to ride difficult things, and it requires riding trails new to you (or at least things that are not frequently in your rotation) so you _cannot_ rely on memorizing the trail.


I will admit to having gotten into quite a rut lately trailwise, but even when I was going a bit further afield I never saw any sign of this improving with practice. Of course if it's more than just a tiny bit technical I won't be able to ride it anyway.



Harold said:


> As much as I dislike it when people give the advice to "ride with faster riders" to get better (there's WAY more to it than that), this is one skill where riding with people _better_ than you are can help you. So long as you're riding as a group, together, you can watch them ride stuff, and they can watch you ride stuff, and you can ask questions and receive advice. Observing other riders' line choices can help you learn to make better line choices. When I do it, I almost always learn of a new way to ride something. Some line I didn't see before. And once I see it, I can't un-see it.


I'm too slow. Can't learn anything if I can't keep up with them. I would have to be on an ebike.
I realize that some of this "ride with faster people" thing is to turn every ride into a hammerfest in hopes that you will eventually get faster, but the difference is too great.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

AlbertHenry said:


> Interesting anecdote. I have one of my own that I'm applying consciously or unconsciously in this sport. I was around ten years old with my dad driving down a road and there was a Jeep in front of our 92 Corolla. Well, the exhaust pipe and/or muffler of the Jeep comes off and my dad doesn't move an inch. If anything he gripped the wheel harder since it was clear that we were going to go over the car part. Boom boom. I asked my dad why he didn't swerve around it and he told me that he could've lost control of the car. I'm applying that in this sport. If I see a better or smoother line but I have to turn to get to it I ignore it and brace for whatever terrain I have in front.


I don't know if that's a good plan in the long run. Sometimes that alternate line is there to go around a very technical feature, like a gap or a drop.



AlbertHenry said:


> So far I believe I have the grip right but I think I'm in that defensive position too much because I put so much weight back that I know I'm doing OK when I hit the rear wheel (on my 26er mind you) on those tricky descents. Or so I think. I've actually wondered, what could possibly go wrong if I'm in this position going fairly straight? I can even bail out more easily.


Your balance will be off if you get _way_ off the back of the bike. Generally it's preferable to get your weight low but centered.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

andytiedye said:


> I will admit to having gotten into quite a rut lately trailwise, but even when I was going a bit further afield I never saw any sign of this improving with practice. Of course if it's more than just a tiny bit technical I won't be able to ride it anyway.


This is where it becomes important to set up a good progression for the things you want/need to learn. Where focused practice is important. Where being actually coached can be very useful. But it's also important to note that once you get to a certain point in your riding, improvements are small and they take a long time to accumulate because the practice and repetition is the most important part. You can attend a weekend skills clinic and be taught lots of little things you didn't know, and get a little bit of practice/repetition of those things. But if you don't continue to practice those things in the weeks and months after the clinic, they won't stick. The same goes for self teaching on the trail. If it's not something you work on with some regularity, you won't commit it to long-term muscle memory. This is why it's so important to ride different places and not rely on your memory of the same trail all the time.



andytiedye said:


> I'm too slow. Can't learn anything if I can't keep up with them. I would have to be on an ebike.
> I realize that some of this "ride with faster people" thing is to turn every ride into a hammerfest in hopes that you will eventually get faster, but the difference is too great.


That hammerfest scenario is the exact scenario you want to avoid. Even working on fitness, if the faster rider is just gone and out of sight, that does nothing to help you. What's helpful is having a "rabbit" who's just a little bit faster than you and gets you to push yourself a little bit harder than you might otherwise. Unless, of course, you're someone like me who tends to ride harder when solo. So if I try too hard to keep up with someone who's a little bit faster than me, I end up blowing myself up. Hammerfests are purely about fitness, though. They're not the kind of scenario where you work on your handling skills. Even for advanced riders.

No, what I'm talking about is a fun, social pace sort of ride, a "party pace" if you want to call it that, where the whole point is staying together. Especially if you've got an atmosphere of learning, and learning from each other, where you're going to stop occasionally along the ride and session things. Maybe goofing off is a big part of it, or maybe it's about more serious learning. Either situation works. It'll probably take some effort to find people interested in that sort of thing. This is one place where bike parks and pump tracks have value. They foster that kind of attitude/atmosphere as soon as you walk through the entrance. It's easy to watch other riders while you wait for your turn. Runs tend to be shorter, so you can repeat things easier.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> I don't know if that's a good plan in the long run. Sometimes that alternate line is there to go around a very technical feature, like a gap or a drop.


Yup. The better plan is if you get lots of line choices that you can't analyze quickly to stop, check them all out and decide which one is better for you, back up to give yourself enough time to approach it, and try again now that you have more information. If you can't stop safely to do this, you're going too fast. Every rider needs to be able to inspect a feature they are thinking about riding. You need to look at the exit/landing zone, and that may not be visible from the entrance. You need to look at the feature itself to determine if it's safe (is any wood loose/rotten? Are there any loose rocks?) and to identify the line you're going to take.

I've encountered this situation plenty of times where there's a feature that's too big for me to be willing to ride. Or some rotten wood that makes things sketchy and unsafe. If I can't read everything at riding pace, I'll stop and check it out. In that sort of scenario, I'm taking the alt line, or I'm walking the feature (if no alt line, which also happens).



Nat said:


> Your balance will be off if you get _way_ off the back of the bike. Generally it's preferable to get your weight low but centered.


Agreed again. Getting your weight way back is a great way to get your front wheel in the air, as in a manual (among other things). And in scenarios where you need traction on the front wheel, it's a great way to crash.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DethWshBkr said:


> I've understood it is sort of like ski resorts. The ratings are only relative to the other slopes on that mountain.


That seems about right. A couple of years ago, we rode a system that had a "black diamond" trail that most of us would consider a green circle.

The black diamonds that I rode in Whistler were pretty legit though.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nat said:


> Your balance will be off if you get _way_ off the back of the bike. Generally it's preferable to get your weight low but centered.


While I generally agree with this as it applies to modern bikes, it sounds like the OP rides 26" and might have some pretty dated geometry in which case moving back might be the only option.

The way that I ride my current bike is much different than I did way back in the old days.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

AlbertHenry said:


> Japan. You can't ride bicycles on mountain trails.


I rode at the Hakuba Iwatake bike park last summer. That was a real hoot except for the crappy rental bike.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nat said:


> If you case the first one you'll case the rest. We call it, "lawyered" or "lawyering" as in case after case after case.


Have you been watching me ride, Nat?


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## 856141 (Jul 31, 2019)

So in summary, modern mountain bikes make the trail easier, safer and more comfortable so drops and jumps were added for the thrill. To be able to do them properly you need to gain speed and to keep up the speed, berms were added. Then-again, it's up to the rider to look for the "path of least resistance" to keep that speed. Moreover, going through rock gardens at some speed is actually safer and more comfortable.

I for one will probably keep taking harder lines on the same trail and ride them not trial but macho style... if you will. Remember that I only have access to a handful of non-mtb specific trails of my level and I can't handle the speed yet.

As for the progression, that will be difficult. I'll just comfort myself with being a recreational mountain biker.

And about my bike's geo. I had an extremely low handlebar which is why I had to shift my weight way back. Now, I've just installed a proper entry level fork with the handlebar at the height it should be. Head angle went from 73 to 70 degrees and it is a noticeable difference. I haven't tried it off road yet but definitely will once winter is over.

:thumbsup:


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Sigh...


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> Sigh...


no doubt


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## UltraMTB1 (Nov 23, 2019)

Modern mountain biking has much more in common with motocross, dirt bikes and and on road motorcycles than with classical mountain biking (sans suspension) as it was intended in the 1980's.

And we are seeing the results:

-no one takes you seriously unless you have a $6,500 bike (minimum) from one of a handful of brands

-an endless list of cripples and dead riders from "bicycling" accidents

-a never ending parade of tech that lifts the bar of what's considered to be minimally necessary to ride a trail at 4 mph. A trail that probably shouldn't be ridden over with a bicycle in the first place.

-crash protection galore for the inevitable, well, crashes

But, let's just ignore the fatalities and debilitating injuries. Stoke!


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

AlbertHenry said:


> So in summary, modern mountain bikes make the trail easier, safer and more comfortable so drops and jumps were added for the thrill.


No the trails were already easy. I used to ride XC trails on my BMX bike with no issue. Jumps and drops were added once mountain bikers started learning how to ride.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> No the trails were already easy. I used to ride XC trails on my BMX bike with no issue. Jumps and drops were added once mountain bikers started learning how to ride.


Oh, there are plenty of people spending time at the local jump line that can't really do much more than that. Assuming that they have mastered or even gained basic competency of standard riding skills is a bold move.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Oh, there are plenty of people spending time at the local jump line that can't really do much more than that. Assuming that they have mastered or even gained basic competency of standard riding skills is a bold move.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Conversely, there are plenty of people who can ride super fast but nearly panic at technical sections and jumps. I'd say we all have our strengths and weaknesses, areas where one could improve. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nat said:


> Conversely, there are plenty of people who can ride super fast but nearly panic at technical sections and jumps. I'd say we all have our strengths and weaknesses, areas where one could improve. Wouldn't you agree?


Of course.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

UltraMTB1 said:


> Modern mountain biking has much more in common with motocross, dirt bikes and and on road motorcycles than with classical mountain biking (sans suspension) as it was intended in the 1980's.
> 
> And we are seeing the results:
> 
> ...


That's a hell of a rant.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

UltraMTB1 said:


> as it was intended in the 1980's.


As it was intended by whom? Who was it that gets to decide exactly how everyone else on the planet should enjoy their bikes? You? 
:skep:

Now all you have to do is rewrite history and get everyone to go along with your pretense that a bunch of dirt roadies in day-glo spandex trying to out-exercise each other were the real forefathers of the sport...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> As it was intended by whom? Who was it that gets to decide exactly how everyone else on the planet should enjoy their bikes? You?
> :skep:
> 
> Now all you have to do is rewrite history and get everyone to go along with your pretense that a bunch of dirt roadies in day-glo spandex trying to out-exercise each other were the real forefathers of the sport...
> ...


You DO understand that many of those gentlemen were, in fact, "roadies" who wore day-glo apparel, right?

Just so we get our history right.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> Oh, there are plenty of people spending time at the local jump line that can't really do much more than that.


I don't believe that because the fundamentals of bike handling carry over to every terrain. Pumping jumps, rollers, and rock gardens are mostly the same skill set. The differences are line choice and mental attitude. Bump jumping a curb is no different than popping off a root to gap over a root bed. Pumping a roller is no different than pumping a boulder. If you can't jump or hit drops you do not have good bike handling skills. Jumping and hitting drops are basic skills.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jeremy3220 said:


> I don't believe that because the fundamentals of bike handling carry over to every terrain. Pumping jumps, rollers, and rock gardens are mostly the same skill set. The differences are line choice and mental attitude. Bump jumping a curb is no different than popping off a root to gap over a root bed. Pumping a roller is no different than pumping a boulder. If you can't jump or hit drops you do not have good bike handling skills. Jumping and hitting drops are basic skills.


I pretty rarely jump on any of the trails where I live now, and pretty much never did for when I lived in western VA. Use a rock or root to pop over several others to maintain momentum/speed? Regularly. Hit natural 2-3' drops? Yes. But a built jump wasn't really a thing on the trails where I lived in VA, short of actual jump lines with a jump every 20-30 yards, which, again, were rare in themselves.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> You DO understand that many of those gentlemen were, in fact, "roadies" who wore day-glo apparel, right?
> 
> Just so we get our history right.


Chicken or the egg? 
I definitely get that, and having gotten into the sport around 1990, also resemble that remark (to a point). 

But I'm sure we can agree that it's ridiculous to pretend that the gravity/moto/shuttle party/upgrade your bike atmosphere hasn't been part of the sport since the very beginning. And that escaping from 'roadie' bike culture and just having fun on bikes in the dirt was also a big part of what set things off. You hear some people talk, you'd think nobody ever hit a jump or drop, drifted a corner o raced DH until 2004 or something.

And 'as it was intended'? WTF does that even mean?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> Jumping and hitting drops are basic skills for a well rounded rider.


fify

:thumbsup:

(this from a guy who rarely if ever gets his wheels off the ground and is wildly jealous of all my buddies who are frequent flyers)


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> And 'as it was intended'? WTF does that even mean?


Yeah, that part was revealing. Somehow I doubt he'll be adding clarification. Angry new guy with fewer than 50 posts and already a negative rep red box, I predict he'll be gone from MTBR in under 200 posts.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nat said:


> Yeah, that part was revealing. Somehow I doubt he'll be adding clarification. Angry new guy with fewer than 50 posts and already a negative rep red box, I predict he'll be gone from MTBR in under 200 posts.


Obviously here to tell everyone how it's supposed to be done.

Maybe he can find his forever home down in the VRC, ranting about how swapping cantis out for V's 'goes against the design' or putting a stem shorter than 150mm on an older bike 'ruins the geometry'.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

jeremy3220 said:


> I don't believe that because the fundamentals of bike handling carry over to every terrain. Pumping jumps, rollers, and rock gardens are mostly the same skill set. The differences are line choice and mental attitude. Bump jumping a curb is no different than popping off a root to gap over a root bed. Pumping a roller is no different than pumping a boulder. *If you can't jump or hit drops you do not have good bike handling skills. Jumping and hitting drops are basic skills*.


I'd personally not call jumping/dropping "basic" or "beginner" skills. As in, not ones I expect everyone to have, and not one that I'd expect to need on a "basic" (green?) trail.

That said, I would say that they should be considered basic skill for any rider intending to ride black trails. Which I guess I consider to be "normal" skill level (ie, green/blue trails are missing features, or have smaller features, to purposely help people skill up to what is common on the black trails). Double black and pro trails are definitely "beyond normal" skill level IMO.

Full disclosure here though. I suck at jumping. I've been riding for just over a year now, and I'm starting to feel much more comfortable on drops. Jumps... not quite there yet. I'll get there though .


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

ocnLogan said:


> I'd personally not call jumping/dropping "basic" or "beginner" skills. As in, not ones I expect everyone to have, and not one that I'd expect to need on a "basic" (green?) trail.
> 
> That said, I would say that they should be considered basic skill for any rider intending to ride black trails. Which I guess I consider to be "normal" skill level (ie, green/blue trails are missing features, or have smaller features, to purposely help people skill up to what is common on the black trails). Double black and pro trails are definitely "beyond normal" skill level IMO.
> 
> Full disclosure here though. I suck at jumping. I've been riding for just over a year now, and I'm starting to feel much more comfortable on drops. Jumps... not quite there yet. I'll get there though .


You're thinking about this in terms of mountain bike trails and what it takes to traverse them...which is kind of my point. Mountain bikers have been slow to catch up to other off-road two wheel sports (MX and BMX) where jumping is taken for granted.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> You're thinking about this in terms of mountain bike trails and what it takes to traverse them...which is kind of my point. Mountain bikers have been slow to catch up to other off-road two wheel sports (MX and BMX) where jumping is taken for granted.


Not sure I'm buying this. You're saying that mountain biking in general should be moving to more MX territory, and if it doesn't, it is deemed "slow to catch up"?

Certainly MTB can differ, right?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

phlegm said:


> Not sure I'm buying this. You're saying that mountain biking in general should be moving to more MX territory, and if it doesn't, it is deemed "slow to catch up"?
> 
> Certainly MTB can differ, right?


I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying in every other two wheel off-road sport jumping is a basic skill.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying in every other two wheel off-road sport jumping is a basic skill.


Ah, misinterpreted that, but I still think you're making an unfair comparison. For example, I would expect very little jumping on an XC course, but there could be a ton of jumps on a DH course. Jumping would just be a lesser part of some riding types. The concept of "catching up" needn't apply - it's just different.

You could take the opposite approach, and say BMX doesn't typically deal with roots and rocks, where navigating them is a basic skill in MTB.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

phlegm said:


> Ah, misinterpreted that, but I still think you're making an unfair comparison. For example, I would expect very little jumping on an XC course, but there could be a ton of jumps on a DH course. Jumping would just be a lesser part of some riding types. The concept of "catching up" needn't apply - it's just different.
> 
> You could take the opposite approach, and say BMX doesn't typically deal with roots and rocks, where navigating them is a basic skill in MTB.


I'm not talking about race courses but even the evolution of XC and DH courses (which now have more jumps than the early days) are evidence of mountain biking slow to pick up the skill. However every trail near me has jumps of some sort. I'd also like to point out that people who can jump find more opportunities to jump off of natural features. I rode a trail today that has a natural step-up right on the main trail about 10ft long coming out of a gully. I've pointed it out to a few people who didn't realize it was there. Most people just roll it it unaware of the potential.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm not talking about race courses but even the evolution of XC and DH courses (which now have more jumps than the early days) are evidence of mountain biking slow to pick up the skill. However every trail near me has jumps of some sort. I'd also like to point out that people who can jump find more opportunities to jump off of natural features. I rode a trail today that has a natural step-up right on the main trail about 10ft long coming out of a gully. I've pointed it out to a few people who didn't realize it was there. Most people just roll it it unaware of the potential.


I agree with you there - you can hunt for jump opportunities anywhere, and XC race courses have become decidedly gnarlier in the past several years.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

jeremy3220 said:


> You're thinking about this in terms of mountain bike trails and what it takes to traverse them...which is kind of my point. Mountain bikers have been slow to catch up to other off-road two wheel sports (MX and BMX) where jumping is taken for granted.


I think that is true for MX/SX/AX. For more typical trail riding, I'm not sure if I'd say the same thing.

I grew up dirt biking... but on normal single/doubletrack trails in the mountains/desert. For normal trail riding like that (at least in the desert southwest USA), jumps were quite uncommon. So, the natural/techy style of mtb trails I'm more comfortable with, but the bigger jump type features still scare me a bit, just because I have nearly no experience with them.

Whoops *were *common in some of the sand washy areas, but I was either too unskilled to ride them as a rhythm section, or they weren't really ride-able as a series of doubles/triples(I couldn't tell you which at this point).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm not talking about race courses but even the evolution of XC and DH courses (which now have more jumps than the early days) are evidence of mountain biking slow to pick up the skill. However every trail near me has jumps of some sort. I'd also like to point out that people who can jump find more opportunities to jump off of natural features. I rode a trail today that has a natural step-up right on the main trail about 10ft long coming out of a gully. I've pointed it out to a few people who didn't realize it was there. Most people just roll it it unaware of the potential.


I love following 'poppy' riders that really know how to take advantage of air opportunities. Always an eye opener, even on trails I've ridden lots of times; it's interesting what options a different skill set will open up.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

UltraMTB1 said:


> Modern mountain biking has much more in common with motocross, dirt bikes and and on road motorcycles than with classical mountain biking (sans suspension) as it was intended in the 1980's.
> 
> And we are seeing the results:
> 
> ...


I can't imagine why your reputation is so poor.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

rynomx785 said:


> I can't imagine why your reputation is so poor.


Haha, is that guy banned yet? He's been here less than two weeks and has two neg. reps already.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Nat said:


> Haha, is that guy banned yet? He's been here less than two weeks and has two neg. reps already.


yep, he's on a weeklong va-ca.

I don't think he even owns a bike yet. His profile says:
Bike Setup: new to sport


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## gravityryder26 (Feb 11, 2013)

This is a post from the "Trails" section of MTBR that I thought was hilarious and fitting for this thread


"I heard that this trail is supposed to be one of the best so I decided I had to try it. First I went to my local Target and bought their top of the line Jeep brand Full Suspension bike. This thing set me back over $200 so I knew I would have one of the best bikes on the mountain. I arrived on a hot, sunny afternoon and about 100 meters into the ride, I discovered that this trail should not be open to the public. It is literally impossible to ascend this trail, even on one of the best bikes available. I walked my bike almost 2 miles and endured ridicule as people descending the mountain laughed at my bike. I can only assume they were jealous. On the descent, I flipped the bike at least 5 times and broke several parts off of my brand new bike. How is this trail considered rideable? I can only imagine the fate of some lesser bike. I don't think I'll ever return to this trail."


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

gravityryder26 said:


> This is a post from the "Trails" section of MTBR that I thought was hilarious and fitting for this thread
> 
> "I heard that this trail is supposed to be one of the best so I decided I had to try it. First I went to my local Target and bought their top of the line Jeep brand Full Suspension bike. This thing set me back over $200 so I knew I would have one of the best bikes on the mountain. I arrived on a hot, sunny afternoon and about 100 meters into the ride, I discovered that this trail should not be open to the public. It is literally impossible to ascend this trail, even on one of the best bikes available. I walked my bike almost 2 miles and endured ridicule as people descending the mountain laughed at my bike. I can only assume they were jealous. On the descent, I flipped the bike at least 5 times and broke several parts off of my brand new bike. How is this trail considered rideable? I can only imagine the fate of some lesser bike. I don't think I'll ever return to this trail."


Please tell me this was satire?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

of course it's satire. not even chuck norris would ridicule a jeep bike...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Quick, someone post a link to the legendary Jeep Bike thread. And the Whole Map of the Forest thread while you're at it.

Here's the Jeep one:

https://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/jeep-bike-build-776332.html


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## gravityryder26 (Feb 11, 2013)

Good Lord. What a complete waste of time.


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## Nel79 (Dec 1, 2019)

Fun fun fun, 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G975F mit Tapatalk


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