# eMTB's make you stronger/faster on analog bikes?



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I have no articles to share for you to discount, and won't bother with Strava data for you to question, yes it's anecdotal, but after a month of riding my class 1 eMTB exclusively, mostly in eco mode (which is new to me), I went for a ride on my analog bike and set a bunch of PR's, beating segment times from 6 years ago (when I was under 50) without paying attention to HR, or pace, or anything - just out riding....in freaking March, when my fitness should be at it's lowest.

The only explanation I can come up with is that riding a 55 pound ebike in eco mode is harder than riding a 28 pound analog bike, or maybe there's a sensation of speed that one becomes accustomed to on the ebike, so you end up riding harder/faster on the analog bike?

In the time since I noticed this, I've also heard reports of younger pro level racers in my area to the same effect. They're training full time on their ebikes, and believe themselves to be stronger than ever as a result.


.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've busted out a lot of pr's since I stopped eating meat. 

Conclusion; meat makes you slow.


----------



## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Can't say for certain if that theory is sound. However if you rode a 50 pound ebike with zero assist, that would be great exercise and you would most likely see improvement on regular bikes.


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Riding my much lighter Rise in eco feels like riding a regular bike so I say your theory is sound, btw where ya riding? MH was a disaster this past week with 3-6" coming


----------



## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

For me, just seeing the word _analog_ used when describing a bicycle without a motor causes so much long lasting rage that PRs happen without me even trying.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I own and enjoy 2 e-bikes but threads like these leave me shaking my head, regardless of the veracity of the premise. They just come across as trying way too hard.

That said, pretty sure I get significantly more conditioning and benefit zwifting, road biking or riding my non-motorized mountain bikes. I don’t ride my e-bike for conditioning. I ride it for fun. Pretty sure I am slowly deconditioning over the winter, given that all I have been doing is e-fat biking. Despite being on my e-bike for almost 35 days in a row riding blue and black trails in BC and Alberta, I have some serious work to do prior to spring riding.


----------



## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Have a riding aquantance who switched to ebike. Hes gained weight, and were not talking muscle mass, lol. His confidence on the descents has gone up tho.


----------



## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

There could be something to this. For best cardiovascular fitness, you want your long duration training to be low intensity. Some people train too hard on their long duration days, and if the heart rate is too high, your heart doesn't have a chance to fill completely and it does not stimulate increased heart volume. A common saying is that people do their easy days too hard, and their hard days too easy. You could also be training more frequently or longer on the ebike since you working less.
Saying that it is harder to ride a 50 lb ebike than a normal bike is nonsensical, the whole point of the motor is to make it easier, if it was harder no one would ride it.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

_CJ said:


> I have no articles to share for you to discount, and won't bother with Strava data for you to question, yes it's anecdotal, but after a month of riding my class 1 eMTB exclusively, mostly in eco mode (which is new to me), I went for a ride on my analog bike and set a bunch of PR's, beating segment times from 6 years ago (when I was under 50) without paying attention to HR, or pace, or anything - just out riding....in freaking March, when my fitness should be at it's lowest.
> 
> The only explanation I can come up with is that riding a 55 pound ebike in eco mode is harder than riding a 28 pound analog bike, or maybe there's a sensation of speed that one becomes accustomed to on the ebike, so you end up riding harder/faster on the analog bike?
> 
> ...


LOL

Hey CJ, you should go into politics.
Tell the lie often enough and eventually the public will believe it.
=sParty


----------



## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

i have gotten better descending, maybe because the levo and sl are pretty good at that or maybe because of the sheer extra mileage in the last few years
sadly i thing my aerobic capacity and strength may have suffered


----------



## LowLow (Sep 18, 2007)

Taroroot said:


> Have a riding aquantance who switched to ebike. Hes gained weight, and were not talking muscle mass, lol. His confidence on the descents has gone up tho.


Sadly that's my own personal experience. I've become significantly better at hitting jumps and drops because I get to do two to three times the amounts of runs on my ebike, but I've definitely lost fitness. I rode my regular 33lbs mountain bike for the first time in a few weeks and climbing with it was so much harder than it used to be. Descending was great though, once I got the hang of it.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

AEyogi said:


> There could be something to this. For best cardiovascular fitness, you want your long duration training to be low intensity. Some people train too hard on their long duration days, and if the heart rate is too high, your heart doesn't have a chance to fill completely and it does not stimulate increased heart volume. A common saying is that people do their easy days too hard, and their hard days too easy. You could also be training more frequently or longer on the ebike since you working less.
> Saying that it is harder to ride a 50 lb ebike than a normal bike is nonsensical, the whole point of the motor is to make it easier, if it was harder no one would ride it.


This was my first thought actually. If I had to guess, I'd say the ebike has let the OP ride more duration of time in the endurance building zones, and that is what he is feeling.

This is the principal of polarized training, which is currently one of the leading theories in gaining fitness for endurance athletes (cycling, running, etc). Which is basically what is stated above. Another way to look at it is to do 80% of your training time at the low cardio effort zones (zones 1-2 on a 5 zone model), and to do 20% of your training at the high intensity zones (zones 4 and 5 in the 5 zone model). There is a bunch of good information about this online if you look around.

I'd think mathematically you could figure out if a heavier bike in eco mode would take more effort to pedal than a lighter bike without assist. As long as the wattage that the ebike provides in eco mode is more than the ~27lb weight deficit would require to move it uphill, then it would be a net positive.

So, I searched around and found a calculator. It looks like the crossover point would be around *28w*. Meaning, the ebike in eco mode would need to be providing at least that much power to be easier than the lighter weight bike.

At 5mph, and 10% grade, a 150lb rider on a 28lb bike would take *193w*.










And the same 5mph, 10% grade, 150lb rider, with a 55lb bike would take *221w*.









I've got no idea how much power an ebike puts out in eco mode. But I'm betting its more than 30w? Also, the math above would change depending on the speed, grade, and bike/rider weight. But that should be a half decent guess.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

I’ve only got more fit since I started riding my ebike. I hammer down pretty hard in basic mode when I’m riding it though, with my HR staying zones 4 and 5 throughout the ride. There’s no pacing, and the only time I stop for a break is when the battery needs to be switched. 

When I’m out of battery power on my ebike rides, my legs have pretty much had all they want for the day.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> This was my first thought actually. If I had to guess, I'd say the ebike has let the OP ride more duration of time in the endurance building zones, and that is what he is feeling.
> 
> This is the principal of polarized training, which is currently one of the leading theories in gaining fitness for endurance athletes (cycling, running, etc). Which is basically what is stated above. Another way to look at it is to do 80% of your training time at the low cardio effort zones (zones 1-2 on a 5 zone model), and to do 20% of your training at the high intensity zones (zones 4 and 5 in the 5 zone model). There is a bunch of good information about this online if you look around.
> 
> ...


I would say mine put out significantly more than 30 watts in Eco mode. The assist in the lowest setting is ridiculous.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I would say mine put out significantly more than 30 watts in Eco mode. The assist in the lowest setting is ridiculous.


I was curious, and did some digging. Its... surprisingly opaque. Its not actually very easy to find that for some reason.

I found an article about the Specialized Levo, and it looks like for that specific bike, it limits the assist to 35% of peak power in eco mode. Which for that bike, they say its max power is 565w. So it seems like the max assist for that bike could be 565w x .35 = 197w. I believe that would be torque sensing though, so it would only do that if you were putting the hammer down. So not sure how much that would put out at more moderate effort levels.

But either way, it looks like it would be well above 30w, if I had to guess based on just the levo.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

ocnLogan said:


> I was curious, and did some digging. Its... surprisingly opaque. Its not actually very easy to find that for some reason.
> 
> I found an article about the Specialized Levo, and it looks like for that specific bike, it limits the assist to 35% of peak power in eco mode. Which for that bike, they say its max power is 565w. So it seems like the max assist for that bike could be 565w x .35 = 197w. I believe that would be torque sensing though, so it would only do that if you were putting the hammer down. So not sure how much that would put out at more moderate effort levels.
> 
> But either way, it looks like it would be well above 30w, if I had to guess based on just the levo.


All I know is that riding my e-fattie in Eco mode is significantly easier than riding my buddy’s top of the line, uber light Rocky Blizzard. And I mean shockingly easier. I feel sorry for him when we ride together.

Then again, he is a full time triathlete so maybe it’s a blessing in disguise for him, training wise.


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

A couple of weeks ago I rode my wife's (road/gravel) e-bike home from work. I was in a hurry and there is about 2000 ft of climbing to get home, including some sections with 18% to 22% grades. I put the thing in turbo and flew up the hills with minimal effort, and I got home almost twice as quickly. I felt like I didn't even really work up a sweat, but I noticed later that night my legs were really exhausted, I had muscle spasms/cramps, and other distinct and objective differences. The only thing I can think of is that the e-bike essentially forced me to pedal, continuously, at a high cadence, something I don't do on a normal bike. If I coasted at all, I immediately lost power (class 1), and so I kept pedaling. The feeling was not unlike the kind of workout I get on a trainer using Zwift, where it makes your life miserable if you stop pedaling even for a few seconds to grab a water bottle.

I don't usually ride an e-bike, and I don't like to ride a trainer, so I haven't done the experiment myself, but it makes me think that if I did either of these for a month, my experience on the "analogue" or normal bike would be very different (and possibly improved).


----------



## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

It depends on how much effort you put in right? Not that complicated of a topic.


----------



## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Monty219 said:


> It depends on how much effort you put in right? Not that complicated of a topic.


It is complicated if you have 'confirmation bias' against Ebikes.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

_CJ said:


> I have no articles to share for you to discount, and won't bother with Strava data for you to question, yes it's anecdotal, but after a month of riding my class 1 eMTB exclusively, mostly in eco mode (which is new to me), I went for a ride on my analog bike and set a bunch of PR's, beating segment times from 6 years ago (when I was under 50) without paying attention to HR, or pace, or anything - just out riding....in freaking March, when my fitness should be at it's lowest.
> 
> The only explanation I can come up with is that riding a 55 pound ebike in eco mode is harder than riding a 28 pound analog bike, or maybe there's a sensation of speed that one becomes accustomed to on the ebike, so you end up riding harder/faster on the analog bike?
> 
> ...


I think the reason is that you're riding the e bike at a lower heart rate, which is good for building a great aerobic base.

When Herman maier was hurt a few years ago, all his training was really low intensity high volume aerobic work. And skiing is primarily anaerobic at his level.

Many studies show that low intensity builds vo2 max better than intervals 

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> I feel like someone is trying to sell me a ShamWow or the convenience of scrambling an egg while its still inside its shell


Me too except I'm getting that Slap Chop vibe









I consider myself a relatively strong rider. I believe it's because I ride both. I do hard efforts on both bikes and also zone 2 efforts on both bikes. With lots of climbing.

I wouldn't be as strong a rider if I were only riding my E-MTB.

I'm faster on the E-MTB because I ride a MTB as well.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Jack7782 said:


> It is complicated if you have 'confirmation bias' against Ebikes.


…or for them.
=sParty


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

There is an element of truth to what the OP is saying although he wrong about the why.

The biggest determinent of "fitness" is how much you ride, not how hard you ride. There is a solid inverse relationship between intensity and volume. For people who are really out of shape all their riding is at high intensity, they spend a lot of time stopped trying to recover. An e-bike allows them to ride longer and at a low intensity.

But if you have a reasonable fitness level it doesn't give anything you can't do on your regular bike. And if you are really fit you run into that e-bike batteries just don't last long enough for you to be able to actually train your endurance.


----------



## XterraMike (Jul 12, 2012)

Sidewalk said:


> What is the psychological term where you find the results you are looking for?



Confirmation bias...


----------



## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

AEyogi said:


> Some people train too hard on their long duration days, and if the heart rate is too high, your heart doesn't have a chance to fill completely and it does not stimulate increased heart volume.


Not entirely 100% completely, for certain, positive.

But this is nonsense


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

I am the opposite of the OP. In notice that when I am riding a boomer scooter more often than my mountain bike for a period of time, I then feel sluggish, weak and slow when I go ride my mtb. However, there are some boomer scooters I ride with throttles sometimes and I noticed that I don’t get that sluggish, weak feeling as much when switching from the boomer scooter back to the mtb.


----------



## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

singletrackmack said:


> I notice that when I am riding a boomer scooter more often than my mountain bike for a period of time, I then feel sluggish, weak and slow when I go ride my mtb.











Are you riding it in throttle-only mode?


----------



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

_CJ said:


> ...but after a month of riding my class 1 eMTB...





_CJ said:


> ... beating segment times from 6 years ago ...





_CJ said:


> The only explanation I can come up with is ...


Of FFS. You've been riding e-bikes for a month, and you beat some segment times from *6 freaking years ago*, and you can't possibly imagine any reason why that would be other than the 1 month of e-bike made you faster? No other possible reason in the intervening 6 years? Gotta be that 1 month of riding e-bikes that has just had such a massive impact on your fitness?

Just stop with these absurd threads. You're approaching troll status.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

D. Inoobinati said:


> View attachment 1973250
> 
> Are you riding it in throttle-only mode?


Ha! More like this. Boomer scooters are so fun!


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

D Bone said:


> For me, just seeing the word _analog_ used when describing a bicycle without a motor causes so much long lasting rage that PRs happen without me even trying.


Same, its a mountain bike or an e-bike not a watch........




Sidewalk said:


> What is the psychological term where you find the results you are looking for?


Confirmation bias.


The mates in my group who have ebiked up are faster on the down with their ebikes and slower on the up without there ebikes.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Ratt said:


> Its like the Single speed thing. Remember 10 years ago when people were told if they want to get faster ride a single speed. Most those fast single speeders were fast_* before *_they got a single speed. I think its the same here, the fast ebikers were fast analog riders first.


^Basically this. How to get fast/be a good racer is *simple *to understand but *difficult *in practice. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio of people pushing buying some new gimmick vs. putting in the work is like 1000:1. Even well intentioned and mostly true things like 'cyclocross will build up your intensity threshold and...[some ancillary benefit]'. That's great and a nice option to have but... it's not a replacement. How are your fundamentals? Have you put in the work?


----------



## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

nilswalk said:


> Of FFS. You've been riding e-bikes for a month, and you beat some segment times from *6 freaking years ago*, and you can't possibly imagine any reason why that would be other than the 1 month of e-bike made you faster? No other possible reason in the intervening 6 years? Gotta be that 1 month of riding e-bikes that has just had such a massive impact on your fitness?
> 
> Just stop with these absurd threads. You're approaching troll status.


Approaching? This guys the biggest troll on mtbr


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Just thought I’d drop a link to a good video discussing polarized vs “sweet spot” training methods. 

It’s actually really well done. He cites multiple scientific studies and points out their various weaknesses and strengths. The more interesting talking points in the middle include a study where the polarized training group of cyclists had greater improvement in their race times vs those in the study that did more traditional training. And another study of people that completed an Ironman triathalon, and they found the same thing, and also found that some people who trained heavily in the middle zones actually got slower/did worse.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Wow, 45 posts in 24 hours. Impressive!

To answer a few questions:

-Nobody cares how you feel about the term "_analog_". Maybe you should find a different thread to read.

-Not confirmation bias, I don't much care about how fast I ride these days, just noticed the PR's when my activity uploaded. These are segments I've been riding frequently since I started using Strava, and I've been riding 30+ years (more like 45 if you include childhood), not just the 6 years I've been on Strava.

-This is a new phenomenon that seems to be a result of riding in eco. Most of my prior E riding has been in tour and sport modes (for about 50% of my total riding), and I didn't notice any significant changes in fitness, didn't suddenly set a bunch of PR's out of nowhere without trying.

-Not sure about what level of assist my eco mode provides, but I have been passed by _analog_ riders on gravel bikes while climbing in eco on my ebike. The shop where I bought the bike said 15%, but I have no idea. It's a Brose motor/battery, same as Specialized, but no idea if the software is set up the same.

-The frequency and duration of riding hasn't changed much, if at all.

-Intensity? Hard to say, but my perceived level of exertion in eco is about on par with how I ride my _analog_ bike. I just ride over the assist level to the point where it feels like I'm getting the workout I want.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

_CJ said:


> -Not confirmation bias, I don't much care about how fast I ride these days, just noticed the PR's when my activity uploaded. These are segments I've been riding frequently since I started using Strava, and I've been riding 30+ years (more like 45 if you include childhood), not just the 6 years I've been on Strava.


I thought eBike was a separate category in Strava. Does uploading an eBike ride to Strava compare your segment times to your regular mountain bike segment times on the same segments?


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

sgltrak said:


> I thought eBike was a separate category in Strava. Does uploading an eBike ride to Strava compare your segment times to your regular mountain bike segment times on the same segments?


It keeps them separate. I tried to setup a segment to compare a hill climb on my bike vs an ebike so I could download to Garmin and keep pace. But Strava keeps them separate. So the ebike time doesn't show on my normal bike segment and vice versa. But when I view my activities, as they were consecutive I could see the summaries.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

One more step backwards today conditioning wise, but man was it a blast. 5+ hours of this stuff…








…okay, maybe a lateral step. But I wouldn’t say it was a step forward. And yes. I ripped it reasonably decently today.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Carl Mega said:


> ^Basically this. How to get fast/be a good racer is *simple *to understand but *difficult *in practice. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio of people pushing buying some new gimmick vs. putting in the work is like 1000:1. Even well intentioned and mostly true things like 'cyclocross will build up your intensity threshold and...[some ancillary benefit]'. That's great and a nice option to have but... it's not a replacement. How are your fundamentals? Have you put in the work?


This.

You can ride a heavy bike all day. You can ride every day. You can ride 30 miles every day. None of those things necessarily makes you fast, because your body is extremely adept at maximum efficiency and it's trying to minimize it's load. You have to go out of your way to increase that load and increase it in a way that will actually make you faster. I know people that ride bikes pretty much all the time, all day, but they are not fast. I can ride my fat-bike, make it weigh 60lbs, but it doesn't make me fast. Doing interval sprints uphill on that bike makes me fast though, if I can make sure the interval is long enough and the load is high enough. It's uncomfortable and some people might mistake it for pain, in fact, as you get older the threshold between uncomfortable and pain seems to get ever thinner, but getting stronger is extremely uncomfortable and it is rare to push yourself to this level alone or when training. If you can do this, then yes, you can get faster...on any bike.

If someone thinks they are getting fitter on an E-bike, call me back when you are top 5 in Cat 1 XC.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

wgscott said:


> The problem with calling a normal bike "analog(ue)" is that it implies, wrongly, that a battery-powered motor somehow makes the contraption digital. It does not. So the term is completely without meaning.
> 
> Digital music implies Nyquist sampling. Digital displays imply direct numerical readouts. Digital computation implies binary logic.
> 
> ...


Ebike and MeBike.

Ebike powered by E. MeBike powered by Me.


----------



## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

wgscott said:


> The problem with calling a normal bike "analog(ue)" is that it implies, wrongly, that a battery-powered motor somehow makes the contraption digital. It does not. So the term is completely without meaning.
> 
> Digital music implies Nyquist sampling. Digital displays imply direct numerical readouts. Digital computation implies binary logic.
> 
> ...


The motor controllers use pulse width modulation to adjust the output. PWM is digital because at any given instant the DC current is either fully on or fully off. Same as how the brightness in an LED is controlled. Whereas analog implies a continuously varying signal.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Why is it so hard for some people to keep it simple?
Bike
E-Bike


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

sgltrak said:


> I thought eBike was a separate category in Strava. Does uploading an eBike ride to Strava compare your segment times to your regular mountain bike segment times on the same segments?


Yes Strava keeps them separate.

I'm not comparing ebike to analog, the analog PR's that were set were compared to previous analog rides....after riding the ebike exclusively for a month.

.


----------



## john_bikeguy (Nov 23, 2017)

Dogbrain said:


> The motor controllers use pulse width modulation to adjust the output. PWM is digital because at any given instant the DC current is either fully on or fully off. Same as how the brightness in an LED is controlled. Whereas analog implies a continuously varying signal.


Why would we focus on the controller to name a bike and ignore the big difference like the motor? What do you do with sram axs or fox live valve on a regular bike. Geez, wgscott is spot on.


----------



## john_bikeguy (Nov 23, 2017)

john_bikeguy said:


> Why would we focus on the controller to name a bike and ignore the big difference like the motor? What do you do with sram axs or fox live valve on a regular bike. Geez, wgscott is spot on.


* sorry, response was to dogbrain


----------



## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

john_bikeguy said:


> Why would we focus on the controller to name a bike and ignore the big difference like the motor? What do you do with sram axs or fox live valve on a regular bike. Geez, wgscott is spot on.


Just for clarity I think it's dumb to call a human powered bike analog but not for the reason wgscott claims. He was trying to make a point about precise technical language while actually using that precise technical language incorrectly. Even the term analog implies an electical signal that's continuously varying.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> Since labeling by age, race, etc. is a dick move, then your own definition makes whatever you, singletrackmack happen to be riding a dick scooter.
> =sParty


wow, someone’s touchy this morning. Is it maybe because what I pointed out has quite a bit of truth? Why is pointing out the truth being a dick? Some people like to call others names when they are told what they don’t want to hear.

Also, what is the point of having different terms to define different generations then? That is exactly what it is for, to differentiate between the generations which is what I pointed out. Too bad for you it bothers you so much


----------



## Clyde Ride (Jun 7, 2019)

^


singletrackmack said:


> wow, someone’s touchy this morning. Is it maybe because what I pointed out has quite a bit of truth? Why is pointing out the truth being a dick? Some people like to call others names when they are told what they don’t want to hear.
> 
> Also, what is the point of having different terms to define different generations then? That is exactly what it is for, to differentiate between the generations which is what I pointed out. Too bad for you it bothers you so much


I see lots of young people on e-bikes. And use of the “boomer” term has become completely dumb.


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dogbrain said:


> Just for clarity I think it's dumb to call a human powered bike analog but not for the reason wgscott claims. He was trying to make a point about precise technical language while actually using that precise technical language incorrectly. Even the term analog implies an electical signal that's continuously varying.


Is a wind-up watch analogue?

Also, I have a Class-D amplifier. They use a pulse-width modulator and a switching power supply, but they are not digital amplifiers. They are analogue.

One of my bikes has indexed electronic shifting (Di2). Is it a digital bike?

Just for clarity, I agree that the use of digital and analogue in the context of e-bike vs. human-only-powered bike is idiocy.


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Why not simply use:

(1) E-bike

(2) Conventional bike, (when there is a need to emphasize the non-E-bike identity).


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

wgscott said:


> Why not simply use:
> 
> (1) E-bike
> 
> (2) Conventional bike, (when there is a need to emphasize the non-E-bike identity).


I occasionally use the descriptors “actual” or “normal” to describe non-ebikes if the need arises. 

Like so:

Me: “so I was riding my bike up this hill…”
Someone who is not me: “an e bike?”
Me: “No, I mean an actual, normal bike”


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Pedal and muscle bikes are the worst terms, like you don't pedal or use your muscles while riding an ebike?? Analog and acoustic is pretty lame too tho I agree, just call em regular MB's

Regardless riding a 55lb ebike in eco mode would definitely provide a workout and improve fitness so I don't see why all the hate but personally would prefer to just ride a regular lighter MB


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I believe were talking non motorized bike, ebikes are ebikes , or eMTB's I prefer. An eMTB IS NOT a Moped Mr Smarty Pants


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dogbrain said:


> But at least we agree the distinction is dumb.


Good!

Because that was my main point.

(The only thing I feed into my class D amp is the output of my digital to analogue converter, fwiw. There is an ongoing argument amongst audiophools about whether a class D amp is digital or not (because they like trashing all things digital, and Class D amps by extension). NAD and a few other manufacturers make something they call a "direct digital amp" that uses a specific type of class D amp that does take the digital signal and only does a single digital to analogue conversion at the output stage. That always stuck me as a really good idea, but the one time I actually got to listen to one of these in my own home, I was underwhelmed.)


----------



## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dogbrain said:


> To be honest last night I thought you were just dropping Nyquist to sound smart


If only it were that easy. Where I come from, they say Shannon sampling (which I think is the same thing).


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I am shocked this thread has stayed so civil. Props everyone.


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Mr Empty Pants said:


> It's a lot more apt than acoustic or analog. Class 2 ebikes are electrified mopeds in all but name. Hell, I'm half tempted to go find an old 50cc Puch and start calling it my G-bike.


I don't think your getting it, the acoustic/analog discussion is referring to regular ol mountain bikes, not motorized ebikes or mopeds or whatever your calling them. Also class 1 ebikes are a diff animal than class 2 ebikes which have a throttle, class 1 ebikes are pedal assist only


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Tickle said:


> I don't think your getting it, the acoustic/analog discussion is referring to regular ol mountain bikes, not motorized ebikes or mopeds or whatever your calling them. Also class 1 ebikes are a diff animal than class 2 ebikes which have a throttle, class 1 ebikes are pedal assist only


Oh, they're getting it. Problem is you're trying to have rational discourse with a troll. Empty pants is clearly not interested in making useful contributions to this admittedly stupid thread.


----------



## attaboy (Apr 4, 2008)

_CJ said:


> Yes Strava keeps them separate.
> 
> I'm not comparing ebike to analog, the analog PR's that were set were compared to previous analog rides....after riding the ebike exclusively for a month.
> 
> .


Strava doesn’t. Anyone can classify an eBike as a regular bike. And, I’m positive some do.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

attaboy said:


> Strava doesn’t. Anyone can classify an eBike as a regular bike. And, I’m positive some do.


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Mr Empty Pants said:


> No, I'm getting it. You're just being willfully ignorant. I mean you refer to an ebike as non-motorized while it clearly has an electric motor on it providing somewhere from part to a majority of the power propelling the bike forward. It's equipped with a motor used for propulsion it's motorized.


Huh? maybe mix john was right your just straight up trolling cause I'm not sure it's possible someone can be this thick headed. When I said "I believe were talking about non-motorized bikes" I meant REGULAR MB's, as in NOT an ebike, and the analog/acoustic terminology being used to describe them. Got it?


----------



## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Mr Empty Pants said:


> As to my original contribution it was meant to point out that calling a normal bike acoustic or analog to make them appear dated is simply an attempt to distract from what ebikes actually are, modernized mopeds.


Weird you would think that, no one is calling normal bikes by those names for that reason, it's just terms being used to describe them to differentiate them from ebike's, altho poorly I agree


----------



## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

attaboy said:


> Strava doesn’t. Anyone can classify an eBike as a regular bike. And, I’m positive some do.


Actually it does. If I get up a hill too fast, Strava prompts me that "this ride looks like an e-bike ride" and I have to change it. I started using Activity Fix to auto set some things such as which bike I used IE DJ bike at the local dirt jump as I still like to know my exercise/heart rate.

I just wish bikes and e-bikes used the same segments, actually used everything the same, but one would just specify which bike used with the same sanity check as above.

Another note, Strava really would never know which bike you used, analog or not. Oddly when I pair Specialized Mission control to my bike and connect to strava via the app, Strava still doesn't know which bike I used. Odd but as both are living apps (constantly changing) I would not except such.


----------



## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

Sidewalk said:


> What is the psychological term where you find the results you are looking for?


Confirmation Bias? That's the one.


----------



## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Don't know if my ebike is getting me fitter,but it is keeping me riding more often. My downhill skills have definitely improved because of the ebike! Getting more laps!


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

attaboy said:


> Strava doesn’t. Anyone can classify an eBike as a regular bike. And, I’m positive some do.


When I ride my e-bike (not that often), I'll sometimes upload it as a mountain ride so as to compare times to my regular bike (which aren't THAT much faster, maybe 10-20%). The segments are different on the two types of bikes so it's hard to compare otherwise. Then I change the ride to an e-bike ride. Some folks either don't know about this, forget to change the type of ride, or just don't care and want to brag about how fast they are. I just laugh and shake my head when someone purposely keeps their e-bike ride as regular. Maybe some people care more than I do.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

To go back to the OP; it's make sense that he/she would possibly experience improvement since they use their e-bike almost exclusively. Would it be different if it were 505/50, for example.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

If you are not into to Ebikes, just ignore the thread. It really is that simply. 

I personally like: 
EMTB or Ebike
And for non-ebike: MTB or bike

Ebikes & bikes are different, but close. When it comes to fitness, if you’re a rider that just doesn’t have time or motivation. A ebike will get you in good shape, as Ebikes are fun as hell to ride! 

But if an ebiker gets on a bike, the leg power will be down. Cardio will probably still be there, but leg power definitely goes down some. 

Most ebikers are fine with that! I’m personally not looking to be in mtb shape. My goal in riding has always been to get up the hill, because I dislike climbs so that I can enjoy the downhills. 

Calling us lazy and cheaters, is just ignorant. All the guys I ride with are far from those descriptions! I’m not racing anyone, so cheater doesn’t apply here. 

I workout Mon thru Fri in the home gym about an 1hr. I can easily bench, squat and dead lift over 300lbs. I ride my ebike at least 4 times a week. I’m far from being lazy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I only ride my EMTB because I'm being paid to do so. It totally sucks to be honest.

Not fun at all


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

mlx john said:


> I only ride my EMTB because I'm being paid to do so. It totally sucks to be honest.
> 
> Not fun at all


MX9799 needed to edit your entire post, we got to be respectful on both sides👍🏼 
thanks, mtbbiker


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Jack7782 said:


> Don’t forget that PED’s and mechanical doping are one in the same so riding E will always be embarrassing


Cry harder.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Well i agree that an ebike can make you faster on the down. If you can maintain fitness. In thoery you could end up a faster rider overall as your up speed is the same and down is faster.

However if all you do is E i would expect aerobic fitness to drop off over time.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> I only ride embt because it's so fun blowing by all the super-fit people on the trails riding a regular bike...
> 
> It gets even more fun when they yell "cheater!!!" as I blow by them, and I get to yell "slow-poke" back at them.


so roughly twice as fast on an eBike than on a regular bike? ;-)


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mlx john said:


> …On the other hand, when passed by someone on an EMTB, while riding my MTB, I just keep on truckin' enjoying the hell out of my day.


It pi$$es me off when I am on a technical climb and an e-bike comes up behind me and stays right on my a$$ as I am trying to muster every ounce of energy, and every last strand of skill, to try to make it to the top.

I try to remember that feeling when I am on my e-bike, so I don’t inadvertently do it to others. 

I own and enjoy my e-bike. But that’s not to say they don’t pi$$ me off on the trail from time to time.

To be honest, part of me harbours some degree of disdain for them, even though I am one of them…sometimes.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

plummet said:


> Well i agree that an ebike can make you faster on the down. If you can maintain fitness. In thoery you could end up a faster rider overall as your up speed is the same and down is faster.
> 
> However if all you do is E i would expect aerobic fitness to drop off over time.


You’ve got it backwards.
Regular mountain bike is far faster on the descents. 
That 20 lb difference makes the mountain bike higher performance by far.
Climbing is where ebikes are faster.
But you know this, right?
Did I misread your post?
=sParty


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> You’ve got it backwards.
> Regular mountain bike is far faster on the descents.
> That 20 lb difference makes the mountain bike higher performance by far.
> Climbing is where ebikes are faster.
> ...


I interpreted it as getting more laps, means doing the downhills more amd improving skills to get better at the downhills.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

I was riding at a small self-shuttle bike park on my emtb yesterday. I passed a group of 4 heavier-set, out-of-shape folks pushing their bikes up the return trail. Went down again, and passed them again on the way up still pushing. Did five DH runs while they were pushing bikes up. When I caught them resting at the top, one asked me how many runs I had in so far on the day. When I told him about 25, and that I still had half a battery charge on the bike, and another fully charged battery in the truck, the look on all of their faces was truly something to behold. 🤣 🤣🤣


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Klurejr said:


> I interpreted it as getting more laps, means doing the downhills more amd improving skills to get better at the downhills.


Yep. Without exception all the dudes in my riding crew that have bought e bikes have increased their dh speed because of ebiking. 

They have not increased their aerobic fitness. It is also true that the ebike guys in my crew have less aerobic fitness and are slower than previous when they revert back to an mtb.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> You’ve got it backwards.
> Regular mountain bike is far faster on the descents.
> That 20 lb difference makes the mountain bike higher performance by far.
> Climbing is where ebikes are faster.
> ...


That would mean regular bike’s are far more dangerous and destructive than emtbs. Climbing speeds on emtbs aren’t all that fast or dangerous. Twice as fast as 5mph is still a fairly safe speed.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

MX9799 said:


> That would mean regular bike’s are far more dangerous and destructive than emtbs.


No it doesn’t. Here, read this truth:


Mr Empty Pants said:


> If you go faster because you have more control it doesn't necessarily make it more dangerous.


MX9799, then you said,


MX9799 said:


> Climbing speeds on emtbs aren’t all that fast or dangerous. Twice as fast as 5mph is still a fairly safe speed.


I know. I own an ebike.

I’m faster uphill on my ebike because it has a motor.
I’m faster downhill on my mountain bike because it has less mass which makes it far more maneuverable, quicker to slow or stop, easier to pop off trail features or change directions, simply far more responsive in general. It’s not more dangerous than my ebike, it’s less dangerous. I am at one with my mountain bike, in large part because it is comparatively light and nimble. More so than my ebike.

This doesn’t mean I don’t like my ebike. It just means I wish my ebike weighed 20 lbs less.

But then I’d be tempted to ride my ebike all the time and that’s not something I want to do. I like earning my turns.
=sParty


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Gents, bummer I need to go through and edit a bunch of post on both sides. Please let’s be respectful!


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Sparticus said:


> No it doesn’t. Here, read this truth:
> 
> MX9799, then you said,
> 
> ...


I totally get what you're saying, and don't disagree at all. I was simply pointing out the argument from anti-ebikers is that ebikes are way faster, making them more dangerous to other trail users and more destructive to the trails. It doesn't hold much water when you look at fact that ebikes are only really faster on the climbs and flats, where the increased speeds aren't really that fast anyways. 

I personally don't have any trouble maneuvering my heavy ebike in a safe manner on the descents, and I've witnessed plenty of folks having plenty of trouble maneuvering a regular bike down the hills as well.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> I totally get what you're saying, and don't disagree at all. I was simply pointing out the argument from anti-ebikers is that ebikes are way faster, making them more dangerous to other trail users and more destructive to the trails. It doesn't hold much water when you look at fact that ebikes are only really faster on the climbs and flats, where the increased speeds aren't really that fast anyways.


Agreed. In my limited experiance I was able to clock my times on a climb of about 1 mile as 3 times as fast on the eBike over my mtb. But just being faster does not automatically equate to being more dangerous. In my testing I was at 3-4 mph average on the climb on my mtb, I was at 13-14mph on the eBike. The posted speed limit in the preserve is 15mph amd the trail had good sightlines.


----------



## Mr Empty Pants (Aug 26, 2021)

mtbbiker said:


> Gents, bummer I need to go through and edit a bunch of post on both sides. Please let’s be respectful!


It's good to know that all of my post were deleted by accident.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> Agreed. In my limited experiance I was able to clock my times on a climb of about 1 mile as 3 times as fast on the eBike over my mtb. But just being faster does not automatically equate to being more dangerous. In my testing I was at 3-4 mph average on the climb on my mtb, I was at 13-14mph on the eBike. The posted speed limit in the preserve is 15mph amd the trail had good sightlines.


And if one can't stop their ebike quickly and safely going uphill at 14mph, well, that person should probably get off bikes all together, and turn in their driver's license.....


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MX9799 said:


> And if one can't stop their ebike quickly and safely going uphill at 14mph, well, that person should probably get off bikes all together, and turn in their driver's license.....


And not all uphill trails will allow for those speeds due to tight switchbacks or other trail features. It really is a case by case basis for each trail and trail system.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Mr Empty Pants said:


> It's good to know that all of my post were deleted by accident.


Let me quote one line from you “chubby little legs”. Maybe that’s why your posts got deleted? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## QuickSilverZ (Oct 23, 2011)

The moderators on this particular forum are probably some of the worst... 

But, just for the record, I don't think I've ever seen someone who only rides e-bikes and think "Wow, they are in really good shape......"


----------



## Joshhuber2 (May 2, 2021)

They are usually quite rotund. Not all, but most. I was behind a group this morning that were dragging their back brakes and tearing up big rocks on downhills. There are very fit riders who like the longer rides ebikes offer, but the majority crowd they appeal to would not be out on the hard trails without assist. It gets beginners further than their talents should allow. That being said, most of us will be on ebikes eventually if we are truly passionate.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Joshhuber2 said:


> They are usually quite rotund. Not all, but most. I was behind a group this morning that were dragging their back brakes and tearing up big rocks on steep dpwnhills. There are very fit riders who like the longer rides ebikes offer, but the majority crowd they appeal to would not be out on the hard trails without assist. It gets beginners further than their talents should allow. That being said, most of us will be on ebikes eventually if we are truly passionate.


I agree with your last sentence.
=sParty


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> I agree with your last sentence.
> =sParty


And I absolutely disagree. 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between user trail density and peoples general feeling about ebikes.

On my local trail networks the only ones where ebike are an issue, and they are an issue, are ones that are also used by hikers, dog walkers, families and runners. The big main mountain bike networks with a 100km of trails only used by bikes have zero issue with ebikes.

I can see how someone who only has these multi-user areas would be concerned about ebike s impacting their future ability to use the trails.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Silentfoe said:


> And I absolutely disagree.


And I hope you’re right.  
=sParty


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

If someone doesn't ride much but then starts riding a lot with an E-bike it wouldn't surprise me if they got faster on their bike once they started riding that again. Maybe that's what's going on with the OP.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Joshhuber2 said:


> That being said, most of us will be on ebikes eventually if we are truly passionate.


Disagree. Aside from aforementioned reasons having the lungs and power are only part of the equation. Balance and quick reaction time is equally, if not more important and usually degrades as one gets older.

I know some might view this as horrifying but if I'm fortunate and live long enough to age out of technical trails I'll happily pedal away on smooth, flat trails or bike paths. If I can't do that I'll walk.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

QuickSilverZ said:


> The moderators on this particular forum are probably some of the worst...
> 
> But, just for the record, I don't think I've ever seen someone who only rides e-bikes and think "Wow, they are in really good shape......"


It’s not easy keeping condescending post like yours out! If you don’t like ebikes, it’s pretty easy to stay out of this ebike forum and I’m sure the guys that enjoy ebikes would like that as well👍🏼


----------



## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Disagree. Aside from aforementioned reasons having the lungs and power are only part of the equation. Balance and quick reaction time is equally, if not more important and usually degrades as one gets older.
> 
> I know some might view this as horrifying but if I'm fortunate and live long enough to age out of technical trails I'll happily pedal away on smooth, flat trails or bike paths. If I can't do that I'll walk.


ebike will likely give you that security in older age that if your hip, knee, or COPD acts up on your ride, you can get back home. That you can ride out and make it back. Versus your hip, knee, or COPD locking you down to the couch or lazy boy because you are afraid you will be disabled on the trail.

Just wait until a few years from now your ebike has auto drive/auto pilot, and a few bikes arrive back at the trail head with someone who passed away on the ride.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Autonomous ebikes... they're coming.
Soon we won't even have to ride.
=sParty


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ZX11 said:


> ebike will likely give you that security in older age that if your hip, knee, or COPD acts up on your ride, you can get back home. That you can ride out and make it back. Versus your hip, knee, or COPD locking you down to the couch or lazy boy because you are afraid you will be disabled on the trail.
> 
> Just wait until a few years from now your ebike has auto drive/auto pilot, and a few bikes arrive back at the trail head with someone who passed away on the ride.




As I said, not for me. I'll age out of mountain biking in a different way.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> As I said, not for me. I'll age out of mountain biking in a different way.


And I'm sure you'll post about it in the E-bike forum when it happens.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Disagree. Aside from aforementioned reasons having the lungs and power are only part of the equation. Balance and quick reaction time is equally, if not more important and usually degrades as one gets older.
> 
> I know some might view this as horrifying but if I'm fortunate and live long enough to age out of technical trails I'll happily pedal away on smooth, flat trails or bike paths. If I can't do that I'll walk.


Balance and reaction time only degrade of you don't train them. Of course I'm only 73 so eventually you might be right

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> Balance and reaction time only degrade of you don't train them. Of course I'm only 73 so eventually you might be right



Eventually they will. Studies have found that peak reaction time happens at age 24 for most people. It's all downhill from there.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mlx john said:


> And I'm sure you'll post about it in the E-bike forum when it happens.



For sure! Especially on trolly treads like this one


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

I own both a Santa Cruz Bullit and a Santa Cruz Hightower and ride 3-4 times a week. I can say with 100% confidence that eBikes will not make you fitter compared to riding a non eBike, even when riding in eco mode. Average Heart rate is higher, amount of hydration consumed is higher, anaerobic score is higher (Garmin Fenix 6) - these are all quantitative measurements. Even when you can go "more distance" it still does not improve anaerobic fitness as heart rate still stays lower during that time. Riding the eBike, I barely break a sweat vs. normal bike, no matter the distance I ride. This even goes for when you pedal aggressively on an ebike as you are just "assisting the motor" at the top end of the power assist as it cuts in and out (18.5 mph on a Shimano ep8) vs. having to deal with the terrain purely on your own. For those that disagree, post your average HR and calorie stats for the same ride, one with eBike and one with non eBike.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

SDMTB'er said:


> I own both a Santa Cruz Bullit and a Santa Cruz Hightower and ride 3-4 times a week. I can say with 100% confidence that eBikes will not make you fitter compared to riding a non eBike, even when riding in eco mode. Average Heart rate is higher, amount of hydration consumed is higher, anaerobic score is higher (Garmin Fenix 6) - these are all quantitative measurements. Even when you can go "more distance" it still does not improve anaerobic fitness as heart rate still stays lower during that time. Riding the eBike, I barely break a sweat vs. normal bike, no matter the distance I ride. This even goes for when you pedal aggressively on an ebike as you are just "assisting the motor" at the top end of the power assist as it cuts in and out (18.5 mph on a Shimano ep8) vs. having to deal with the terrain purely on your own. For those that disagree, *post your average HR and calorie stats for the same ride, one with eBike and one with non eBike.*


Wish I still had some on my phone from last year. Haven't had the chance to go on a good, long emtb or non-emtb ride this year.

I'll tell you how it works out for me...

On a non-emtb ride, it's generally a slower, shorter mileage ride with my HR mostly in zones 4 and 5. +/- 20 miles in +/- 3 hours, depending on how much time I have to ride and how many times we stop for water (it's pretty flat and HOT AF here in central NC in the summer, which is when I do most of my riding).

On an emtb ride, the average speed is up by about 4-5 mph, and roughly 1.75X more mileage with my HR mostly in zones 4 and 5. +/-35 miles in +/- 3 hours. I ride solo on my emtb since no one else I know has one, so there's less stopping for water and/or resting. About the only stopping I do an on an emtb ride is a quick 5-10 minute break to change my battery and take a drink. If it's really hot and humid I might take another quick stop or two throughout the ride to get water some water in me, but that's about it.

Calorie stats are usually about the same, rarely differing more than 200 calories or so. I usually burn +/- 2,500 calories in a 3 hour ride, whether on my emtb or regular mtb. 

For me, in terms of HR and calories burned, there's not much difference between an emtb ride and a non-emtb ride. Those two fitness stats are all I keep up with though. I don't get into power stats like some do. 

I'm not sure why you "barely break a sweat" on an emtb ride. I sweat plenty on an emtb ride, and feel like I've done a good bit of work at the end of an emtb ride.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

MX9799 said:


> I'm not sure why you "barely break a sweat" on an emtb ride. I sweat plenty on an emtb ride, and feel like I've done a good bit of work at the end of an emtb ride.


It sounds like that guy is sand bagging it when he rides his ebike. I ride with the same power and intensity on both my emtb and my mtb. Just because some people use an emtb for an easy ride doesn't mean all emtb riders do the same.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> It sounds like that guy is sand bagging it when he rides his ebike.


No such thing as sand bagging unless you signed up for a race.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

SDMTB'er said:


> For those that disagree, post your average HR and calorie stats for the same ride, one with eBike and one with non eBike.


Ok
both rides, roughly the same loop. 16.6 miles on the E-MTB and 15.7 on the MTB. 1800 ft of climbing. 823 calories on the E-bike (loop took 1 hour 24 minutes) 1096 calories on the bike (loop took 1 hour 38 minutes).

Heart rate data

E-bike








Bike








Not as big a difference as one might assume


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> No such thing as sand bagging unless you signed up for a race.


If you aren't getting paid to race, it's just YOU vs. YOU.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> If you aren't getting paid to race, it's just YOU vs. YOU.


I'm not sure you know what sand bagging means. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

bryanc said:


> If you aren't getting paid to race, it's just YOU vs. YOU.


?

So all the races I entered back in the day, the other athletes were a figment of my imagination??

Because I wasn't "getting paid". 

Got it.







I need help.


----------



## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

bryanc said:


> It sounds like that guy is sand bagging it when he rides his ebike. I ride with the same power and intensity on both my emtb and my mtb. Just because some people use an emtb for an easy ride doesn't mean all emtb riders do the same.


I actually think I ride harder with more intensity on my emtb. At least maybe it feels a bit like it because I'm going faster. I feel like I ride my emtb all out, while I generally try to pace myself on my non-emtb to avoid just straight up spiking my HR and having to stop for a long rest.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm not sure you know what sand bagging means. 🤷‍♂️


Maybe? But also maybe there are more definitions than you realize?

Seems like he is putting forth less effort on his emtb vs his mtb. He is then using this flawed and anecdotal information to discredit others' opinions. 

Aka, sandbagging. "When you use sandbag as a verb, it either means *to protect with sandbags or to deceive or coerce someone to get something you want*."


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

ZX11 said:


> ebike will likely give you that security in older age that if your hip, knee, or COPD acts up on your ride, you can get back home. That you can ride out and make it back. Versus your hip, knee, or COPD locking you down to the couch or lazy boy because you are afraid you will be disabled on the trail.
> 
> Just wait until a few years from now your ebike has auto drive/auto pilot, and a few bikes arrive back at the trail head with someone who passed away on the ride.


so e-trike then? solves the loss of balance problem, but why stop there, just get an e-texas-wheelchair


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Maybe? But also maybe there are more definitions than you realize?
> 
> Seems like he is putting forth less effort on his emtb vs his mtb. He is then using this flawed and anecdotal information to discredit others' opinions.
> 
> Aka, sandbagging. "When you use sandbag as a verb, it either means *to protect with sandbags or to deceive or coerce someone to get something you want*."


LOL.
Yeah, I was really confused; I thought we had a flood going on. 🤪

Sandbagging wrt to racing is when you sign up for a lower class than you actually should have in order to screw honest riders out of winning.
As in, an expert level racer signing up for beginner class.
Now you know.

If there's no race, there's no sandbagging. The dude is simply riding the way he wants to and relating his experience, and you're flat out calling him a liar. Meh.
For me, the entire purpose of getting an e-bike would be so I can put out less effort. That's why you stick on motor on something in the first place isn't it?
Now you're telling me I'm required to work just as hard all the time as I do on a regular bike?
Now I'm going to flat out call you a liar.


----------



## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

SDMTB'er said:


> I own both a Santa Cruz Bullit and a Santa Cruz Hightower and ride 3-4 times a week. I can say with 100% confidence that eBikes will not make you fitter compared to riding a non eBike, even when riding in eco mode. Average Heart rate is higher, amount of hydration consumed is higher, anaerobic score is higher (Garmin Fenix 6) - these are all quantitative measurements. Even when you can go "more distance" it still does not improve anaerobic fitness as heart rate still stays lower during that time. Riding the eBike, I barely break a sweat vs. normal bike, no matter the distance I ride. This even goes for when you pedal aggressively on an ebike as you are just "assisting the motor" at the top end of the power assist as it cuts in and out (18.5 mph on a Shimano ep8) vs. having to deal with the terrain purely on your own. For those that disagree, post your average HR and calorie stats for the same ride, one with eBike and one with non eBike.


You are assuming that more effort and higher heart rate cause a greater adaptation in aerobic fitness; essentially that more is better. This is not necessarily the case, and some very smart and educated people argue that there is an ideal heart rate zone (which is far less than maximal exertion) for long duration aerobic training.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sandbagging wrt to racing is when you sign up for a lower class than you actually should have in order to screw honest riders out of winning.
> As in, an expert level racer signing up for beginner class.
> Now you know.


You are both correct.

Sandbagging could also be defined throwing down slower lap times when riding a bike then the person is actually capable of. This would present false baseline data for whatever study someone is doing.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> You are both correct.
> 
> Sandbagging could also be defined throwing down slower lap times when riding a bike then the person is actually capable of. This would present false baseline data for whatever study someone is doing.


Only if he was doing it to be purposefully deceiving. 
If that's just he rides on his e-bike, then that's how he rides his e-bike. 
It sounds good to me personally. If they're not faster and just as hard to ride, then what's the purpose?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Only if he was doing it to be purposefully deceiving.
> If that's just he rides on his e-bike, then that's how he rides his e-bike.
> It sounds good to me personally. If they're not faster and just as hard to ride, then what's the purpose?


I will give you an example.

I recently had the opportunity to ride a Turbo Levo and I was specifically curious just how much faster I could go on the eBike than I could on my Intense spider. I did one lap of a loop I have done dozens of times on the spider first. I actually pushed myself harder than I normally might, but if I was sand bagging it, I could have rode it slower on the spider.

Then I got on the Levo and did the same lap and tried to put in the same level of effort. The results met my expectations, the Levo was 3 times faster in some spots and overall was twice as fast.

I was accused of bias and sand bagging to make the results what they were.


I "Think" the sand bagging comment in this thread was related to a similar idea.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

mlx john said:


> Ok
> both rides, roughly the same loop. 16.6 miles on the E-MTB and 15.7 on the MTB. 1800 ft of climbing. 823 calories on the E-bike (loop took 1 hour 24 minutes) 1096 calories on the bike (loop took 1 hour 38 minutes).
> 
> Heart rate data
> ...


Do you know how it’s calculating calories for ebikes?

I’d assume that for normal “naturally aspirated” bikes they just use formulas for the elevation gain,l, rider + estimated bike weight, etc, and then spit out a number for calories burned. 

Unless these apps are using power meters (on the cranks) I’m not sure how they can accurately (or even ballpark) determine calories burned while on an ebike. Since heart rate data isn’t really tied to a specific power output. 

For ebikes it seems more complicated, since effort is directly related to watts produced/calories burned. How does it attempt to guess how much e-assist each rider is using? Since you could be blasting along in turbo mode, or using a specifically de-tuned eco mode. Strata has no idea… does it? Or how integrated is it?

I see things like calories, and average wattage in some posts about ebikes, but I’m always curious if the numbers are “average watts/total calories” of the ebike+rider system, or if it’s just the rider.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> Do you know how it’s calculating calories for ebikes?
> 
> I’d assume that for normal “naturally aspirated” bikes they just use formulas for the elevation gain,l, rider + estimated bike weight, etc, and then spit out a number for calories burned.
> 
> ...


The best test is to put on a heart rate monitor and do both runs, and then compare the results, Take speed out of it and just stick to what the body is doing.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> The best test is to put on a heart rate monitor and do both runs, and then compare the results, Take speed out of it and just stick to what the body is doing.




A power meter would provide much more meaningful results.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> The best test is to put on a heart rate monitor and do both runs, and then compare the results, Take speed out of it and just stick to what the body is doing.


I agree that the calorie data is not reliable when it comes to E-bikes. I don't really care about that data, E-bike or otherwise. A power meter would be just as useless. There is the Blevo app, which I've used in the past which actually differentiates between rider power and motor power, but I could not care less about that data either. My Garmin does not do that.

I do use a HR monitor and my point is that an avg of 140 vs 147 is not really significant in my world. Maybe it is in yours, I don't really care. I was responding to the assertion that E-bike rides are not useful when it comes to fitness from the guy that "doesn't break a sweat" when he's riding his E-bike. Good for him. Blanket generalizations are tiresome.

He is incorrect in my case.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

All I know is that today, I pumped my rear tire of my e-fattie from 2.2 psi to 5.8. It was total mixed condition riding today. I didn’t want to dent a rim. And Boom - in ECO mode, with higher psi, it felt like I was on a 58 pound crotch rocket. Effortless for 4.5 hours. Granted, I didn’t ramp things up to 11 because I don’t like losing studs. Nonetheless…

I said it before and I will say it again. After spending the winter on my e-fattie in ECO mode only, including for 35 days in a row, I have a LOT of Zwift work coming up if I don’t want to be sucking big time come spring trail riding on my non e-fatties.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mlx john said:


> A power meter would be just as useless.




A power meter would show exactly how much power the rider was contributing. Not sure how that's useless info.


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> A power meter would show exactly how much power the rider was contributing. Not sure how that's useless info.


Useless info for me in that I don't care about my power output. I ride because I love it, the fitness aspect is a great bonus. The data points that I'm interested in are HR, distance, avg speed, top speed and elevation gain.

Not saying that power is useless info for anybody else.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Agreed.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

The point of the thread is whether you gain fitness as much on an eBike as a non eBike, not whether you enjoy it. I LOVE to ride my ebike, but I know it is doing very little to improve my fitness. My HR on the eBike rarely rises above what I would get on a very light jog.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

mlx john said:


> I agree that the calorie data is not reliable when it comes to E-bikes. I don't really care about that data, E-bike or otherwise. A power meter would be just as useless. There is the Blevo app, which I've used in the past which actually differentiates between rider power and motor power, but I could not care less about that data either. My Garmin does not do that.
> 
> I do use a HR monitor and my point is that an avg of 140 vs 147 is not really significant in my world. Maybe it is in yours, I don't really care. I was responding to the assertion that E-bike rides are not useful when it comes to fitness from the guy that "doesn't break a sweat" when he's riding his E-bike. Good for him. Blanket generalizations are tiresome.
> 
> He is incorrect in my case.


My point is that an eBike will not offer what a non eBike will in terms of fitness, NOT that eBikes are not useful. As I said, I own one. If you prefer eBikes or can't (or won't for whatever reason) ride a non eBike, certainly an eBike will be more useful in terms of exercise than doing nothing. There is no debate there.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

mlx john said:


> Ok
> both rides, roughly the same loop. 16.6 miles on the E-MTB and 15.7 on the MTB. 1800 ft of climbing. 823 calories on the E-bike (loop took 1 hour 24 minutes) 1096 calories on the bike (loop took 1 hour 38 minutes).
> 
> Heart rate data
> ...


Can you kindly post the altitude charts as well? What was your elevation gain? The differences in fitness between the two types of bikes will be larger if you have more elevation in a given distance. For example if you are just climbing 500 feet in 16 miles, vs. 2000 feet and above - same idea if you are. going 40 miles and climbing 4-5000 feet. You will see significant differences between the two types of bikes in those settings.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

AEyogi said:


> You are assuming that more effort and higher heart rate cause a greater adaptation in aerobic fitness; essentially that more is better. This is not necessarily the case, and some very smart and educated people argue that there is an ideal heart rate zone (which is far less than maximal exertion) for long duration aerobic training.


I clearly said anaerobic in my post, but for some reason you only mention aerobic.

If you want to get fit on a bike, it requires a mix of both anaerobic and aerobic fitness. The only way to achieve anaerobic fitness is at higher threshold levels / intensity. It is old, "80-90% of max HR and not able to speak in complete sentences" rule. See: Anaerobic Training – Sprint to Success | Garmin - Garmin and Suunto both offer the ability to quantify both aerobic and anaerobic fitness after each exercise. Anyone with the ability to monitor this on e.g., a Fenix 6 will see that on an eBike their scores will not be as high as on a non eBike.


----------



## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

mlx john said:


> Ok
> both rides, roughly the same loop. 16.6 miles on the E-MTB and 15.7 on the MTB. 1800 ft of climbing. 823 calories on the E-bike (loop took 1 hour 24 minutes) 1096 calories on the bike (loop took 1 hour 38 minutes).


Same experiment, however, the eBike ride was longer as I added another segment and did some jumpline laps at the end of the ride. Even with a longer ride on the eBike, 1,000 more feet of climbing, the fitness stats don't lie. Not even close. Used a Garmin Fenix 6X (not Strava) to measure.

eBike:

Distance: 19.18 miles
Elevation: 2,801 feet
Avg speed: 8.5 mph
Avg HR: 108
Max HR: 135
Strava relative effort: 31
Aerobic score (Garmin): 2.6
Anaerobic score (Garmin): 0.1
Exercise load (Garmin): 49

non eBike:

Distance: 11.68 miles
Elevation: 1,860 feet
Avg speed: 6.4 mph
Avg HR: 124
Max HR: 156
Strava relative effort: 67
Aerobic score (Garmin): 3.5
Anaerobic score (Garmin):2.2
Exercise load (Garmin): 128




























non eBike:


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

After reading all the back and forth, I think I can summarize what is being said. 
Everyone rides at different intensities whether on an ebike or regular bike. 

The two are different workout. The biggest issue I noticed is leg power does go down, if compared to a reg bike. But at the same time, if you ride hard on your ebike, you can get the HR up and get an actual sweat. I’m saying this from experience. It’s obvious some ride in boost mode and probably don’t pedal hard, thus HR low and not much sweating. 

And the people that says motors make things easier, so some of my most physical draining activities was off-roading on my 450cc dirt bike putting out almost 40 time more power. Please, people, you can get a good workout, even with a motor. I’d come home about 10lbs lighter often


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

REZEN said:


> I started using Activity Fix to auto set some things such as which bike I used IE DJ bike at the local dirt jump as I still like to know my exercise/heart rate.


I never expected to find any useful information in this thread, but you sir have pointed me to something super useful that I didn't know about. I've wanted Strava to allow me to select gear based on recorded sensors for years.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> LOL.
> Yeah, I was really confused; I thought we had a flood going on. 🤪
> 
> Sandbagging wrt to racing is when you sign up for a lower class than you actually should have in order to screw honest riders out of winning.
> ...


I was tactfully calling into question HIS line of thinking and reasoning. I disagreed, and felt like he was stretching (aka deception) the truth to get his point across.

Sandbagging is a term used in many settings with similar but slightly different meanings than the one you seem to be fixated on. Sandbagging, as I meant it, was giving a half assed effort while out riding the ebike and assuming that is how everyone else does it too. Then scoffing at the idea that others can benefit from their own genuine hard efforts.

The best part of riding my ebike is how fast this thing is. It can turn a boring section of singletrack into something fun just by adding 5 to 10 mph. I push as hard as I can when out riding. Climbs, descents, singletrack are all done at my fastest possible speed. So not everyone on an emtb is just out to make their ride easy, some of us actually do ride hard.

If you aren't getting paid to race, meaning a sponsored professional rider, then you are merely racing for bragging rights or simply to fluff your ego. I respect that some people need competition to help gauge your current level of fitness or to see how they match up to other riders. That's a natural evolution of competitive riders, but don't take yourself too seriously because nobody else is either.

At least we all now know the real reason why you don't want an ebike. Lack of personal discipline. Until you own an emtb and ride it for a few hundred miles maybe then you can bring more to this discussion. Until then....as you say...meh....


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mtbbiker said:


> After reading all the back and forth, I think I can summarize what is being said.
> Everyone rides at different intensities whether on an ebike or regular bike.
> 
> The two are different workout. The biggest issue I noticed is leg power does go down, if compared to a reg bike. But at the same time, if you ride hard on your ebike, you can get the HR up and get an actual sweat. I’m saying this from experience. It’s obvious some ride in boost mode and probably don’t pedal hard, thus HR low and not much sweating.
> ...


I agree with the part about leg power going down. WAY down.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> I was tactfully calling into question HIS line of thinking and reasoning. I disagreed, and felt like he was stretching (aka deception) the truth to get his point across.
> 
> Sandbagging is a term used in many settings with similar but slightly different meanings than the one you seem to be fixated on. Sandbagging, as I meant it, was giving a half assed effort while out riding the ebike and assuming that is how everyone else does it too. Then scoffing at the idea that others can benefit from their own genuine hard efforts.
> 
> ...


So, when I go for a ride at whatever pace I personally like to ride, unless I'm trying to kill myself, it means I'm somehow trying to 'deceive' some random strangers?
Like, I'm supposed to be out there thinking about YOU? Are you serious? 🤪

No one has to be worried about being taken seriously as an e-bike racer, amateur or 'professional' (if there even is such a thing).

Please tell me more about how I don't want an e-bike, as long as you're just making **** up off the top of your head anyway. I want one, will likely get one in the not too distant future, and I'm going to use it however I want. One thing you can be sure of is that I'm not going to be out there thinking about whether or not you approve..

Maybe you can also explain how someone using the toy they spent a bunch of money on in whatever way they decide they want to is doing things wrong and that they 'lack personal discipline'. What place is it of yours to judge someone based on how hard they feel like pedaling their e-bike?
Who exactly do you think you are? King of all e-bikers? 
Please.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> All I know is that today, I pumped my rear tire of my e-fattie from 2.2 psi to 5.8. It was total mixed condition riding today. I didn’t want to dent a rim. And Boom - in ECO mode, with higher psi, it felt like I was on a 58 pound crotch rocket. Effortless for 4.5 hours.


Sandbagger with no personal discipline.
How dare you come here to deceive people.

You probably don't even actually like your e-bike.

🤪


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm about to turn 70. I'm going to get an E-bike eventually, but only if it makes it easier!


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MSU Alum said:


> I'm about to turn 70. I'm going to get an E-bike eventually, but only if it makes it easier!


Only if you're doing it wrong.
Apparently there are guys with motors on their bikes who will judge you for using a motor on your bike.
Strange but true.
🤷‍♂️


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> A power meter would show exactly how much power the rider was contributing. Not sure how that's useless info.


Alongside speed/time data between the 2 bikes on the same course, etc.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sandbagger with no personal discipline.
> How dare you come here to deceive people.
> 
> You probably don't even actually like your e-bike.
> ...


Hahahaha. I know you are joking but for the sake of certainty, my daughter and I love our e-fatties. But you won’t see us on them from June to October…except possibly for trail maintenance this year. Super stoked about that. I was just about to start a thread on that and ask for input from @Sparticus.

Today we begin a painful descent into hell on a different electrified bike…to recover lost leg strength and cardio…


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

You get out what you put in.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Maybe you can also explain how someone using the toy they spent a bunch of money on in whatever way they decide they want to is doing things wrong and that they 'lack personal discipline'. What place is it of yours to judge someone based on how hard they feel like pedaling their e-bike?
> Who exactly do you think you are? King of all e-bikers?
> Please.


You seem very intent on judging others and their actions. Apparently you can't take it when the same standards are placed on you.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> You seem very intent on judging others and their actions. Apparently you can't take it when the same standards are placed on you.


What 'standards' are those? 
You see me telling anyone how hard they're supposed to pedal?


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> What 'standards' are those?
> You see me telling anyone how hard they're supposed to pedal?


I didn't write anything like that. You seem to lack the ability to read and understand what I have posted.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> I didn't write anything like that. You seem to lack the ability to read and understand what I have posted.





bryanc said:


> Seems like he is putting forth less effort
> 
> flawed and anecdotal information





bryanc said:


> felt like he was stretching (aka deception) the truth
> 
> a half assed effort
> 
> Lack of personal discipline.


So his information is flawed, anecdotal and deceptive, but yours isn't.
Cuz you ride more righter. 

You know, you could be an even better exerciser if you take the next logical step and turn the motor off completely.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you say so.


You still missed the point. My comments were related to his attempts to prove a point using flawed information. Similar to what you have done here.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> You still missed the point. My comments were related to his attempts to prove a point using flawed information. Similar to what you have done here.


I think I got it now:

His anecdotal information is flawed.
Yours isn't.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think I got it now:
> 
> His anecdotal information is flawed.
> Yours isn't.


Yikes.....let me spell it out for you. This thread is about if riding an emtb will improve your fitness on an mtb. One particular guy says no because he rides both emtb and mtb bikes but yet his heart rate is much lower while riding an emtb while referring to riding both on similar rides. I didn't feel that was a fair comparison since he didn't do the same ride at the same intensity or heart rate. You seemed to get all heated up about what term I used and and missed the whole point of my first post.

Now you are nit picking me over some obscure point that I never actually made. I don't care how people ride their bikes. I don't care if they love or hate emtbs. My own riding style is to push hard when appropriate, regardless of which type bike I am riding. I have the heart rate data too, but in the end nobody really cares. We all have days where we push hard, and other days where we are merely trying to relax a bit and enjoy the ride. But be honest with yourself, and compare apples to apples when looking at the data.

For what it's worth I agree that there is a definite loss of fitness if riding only emtbs. You can limit some of that loss by riding hard.


----------



## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

SDMTB'er said:


> I clearly said anaerobic in my post, but for some reason you only mention aerobic.
> 
> If you want to get fit on a bike, it requires a mix of both anaerobic and aerobic fitness. The only way to achieve anaerobic fitness is at higher threshold levels / intensity. It is old, "80-90% of max HR and not able to speak in complete sentences" rule. See: Anaerobic Training – Sprint to Success | Garmin - Garmin and Suunto both offer the ability to quantify both aerobic and anaerobic fitness after each exercise. Anyone with the ability to monitor this on e.g., a Fenix 6 will see that on an eBike their scores will not be as high as on a non eBike.


Professional athletes train mostly in the aerobic zone, and do limited work, often periodized, for anaerobic training. You do too many sprints, you will overreach and need more recovery. There is a fad for doing primarily or only HIIT or other interval training, but this is among CrossFit types, and not serious endurance athletes. I agree fully that we need to balance long duration low intensity cardio along with threshold, or high intensity training; but my point is that most of our training should be in the low intensity zone for maximizing aerobic fitness, compared to the idea that higher heart rate results in more fitness. This could also explain why someone who is sucking gas all the time on a MTB will find their fitness improving by switching to an EMTB.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bryanc said:


> One particular guy says no because he rides both emtb and mtb bikes but yet his heart rate is much lower while riding an emtb
> 
> I didn't feel that was a fair comparison since he didn't do the same ride at the same intensity or heart rate.


He said he found that his heart rate was lower on the e-bike, and you're saying because of that it's not a fair comparison?
Makes no sense.

My dad got his first e-bike recently.
His favorite thing about it is he can now go out and do much longer rides with less effort, and his heart rate doesn't get jacked up anywhere near as high as on his mountain bike. 
That's exactly how I would take advantage of having a motor on my bike as well. That's the entire purpose as far as I (and a whole lot of others) are concerned.

There is no correct 'yes' or 'no' answer. The way you as an individual choose to operate your e-bike has zero bearing on how anyone else chooses to operate theirs. You don't get to set the parameters for anyone but yourself. If someone chooses to ride in turbo/boost/etc mode 100% of the time, that is just as valid a way to operate as any other.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> He said he found that his heart rate was lower on the e-bike, and you're saying because of that it's not a fair comparison?
> Makes no sense.


My first thought when I read that post was, "No ****, you got a f**king motor on your bike."

Bring the same intensity and heart rate to the emtb and maybe then you can make a fair comparison about what sort of fitness level you can maintain.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

You can ride an ebike with lower hr or higher hr. Picking an example that highlights your point does nothing to answer the question of ebike adding fitness. 

Fitness is simple. You can get it for almost any exercise. Or alternatively you can suck at it and not gain fitness. 

Ebikes allow you to get whatever fitness goals you want and they translate directly to MTB. Or if that's not your goal great.

The question of is it harder or easier is up to the individual and their overall mindset. 

If you want the best bike fitness then get a road bike. It's by far the most structured training.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> You can ride an ebike with lower hr or higher hr. Picking an example that highlights your point does nothing to answer the question of ebike adding fitness.


Exactly.

Nor does it mean that someone who finds differently is somehow deceiving anyone, or doing anything 'wrong'.


----------



## bryanc (Aug 7, 2017)

alexbn921 said:


> You can ride an ebike with lower hr or higher hr. Picking an example that highlights your point does nothing to answer the question of ebike adding fitness.
> 
> Fitness is simple. You can get it for almost any exercise. Or alternatively you can suck at it and not gain fitness.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your point of view. It is too easy to hide behind cherry picked facts.

My own interpretation of mtb vs emtb is similar to strength training vs aerobic exercises. Both can and will make you sweat your ass of if done correctly. However one will build muscles more effectively than the other.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> I will give you an example.
> 
> I recently had the opportunity to ride a Turbo Levo and I was specifically curious just how much faster I could go on the eBike than I could on my Intense spider. I did one lap of a loop I have done dozens of times on the spider first. I actually pushed myself harder than I normally might, but if I was sand bagging it, I could have rode it slower on the spider.
> 
> ...


I did the same thing. 

I rode the Same 18 minute loop I have ridden at all out race Pace many times on my Race bike. 

I was 2 minutes faster overall than my all time PR. I gained nothing on the downhill half and gained 2 minutes on the up hill half. 

I’m a Cat 1 old guy. 

I do want to test this on the Back 40, which is much longer. I’ve done a 1h43m. I am curious if I can go sub 1h30min pinned, and if so by how much.

As it pertains to this threads original topic. No am ebike is not making you faster. The extra riding you are able to do because of having a motor may be making you faster. Unless I was riding flat out as fast as I can manage to handle the turbo lev, it’s hard to do much over a Z2 ride on the Turbo lev (for me). There is something to be said for that though. A 4 hour Z2 MTB ride can do a lot for fitness when paired with a regular training program. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

bryanc said:


> I appreciate your point of view. It is too easy to hide behind cherry picked facts.
> 
> My own interpretation of mtb vs emtb is similar to strength training vs aerobic exercises. Both can and will make you sweat your ass of if done correctly. However one will build muscles more effectively than the other.


Biomechanically they are the same thing and can be used at identical output levels. If you chose to, you can get an identical workout.

I chose to use any bike I ride to maximize my fitness.
Of course that is not always the goal, but when it is, the bike doesn't matter.

If you are following a effort/time based training program, it simple WRONG that this can't be completed on any bike.


----------



## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

alexbn921 said:


> If you are following a effort/time based training program, it simple WRONG that this can't be completed on any bike.


Ultimately, this is the right framing. Just like motor pacing can help refine your speed efforts, it alone is not a substitute or foundational training. It may be a useful tool, but most of the effect being discussed here is simply encouragement and motivation.


----------



## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Cardio workout effectiveness is measured by heart rate and time, not elevation or miles.

You get more efficient at what you repeat. If you repeat junk miles, you get efficient at junk miles. If you repeat mountain rides, you get efficient at mountain rides. This is the essence of fitness.

An error that people have is believing that one kind of training fitness carries over to another. How much does cycling help with running? Not much, in my experience. With modern MTB geo radically distancing itself from road/XC geo, even pavement rides on a road bike won't transfer much to help an enduro racer's fitness. Heck, even top road bike racers feel that to do well in time trials, they needed to spend more time on their time trial bikes. They admitted that they'd be trading off their road bike training/performance, due to the differences in fit between the bikes. The concept of training specificity backs this topic, also explaining why there seems like there's a trend of MTB specific workouts.

An ebike would help transfer riding strength and fitness if it is very similar to the normal bike, like an enduro emtb with modern geo to an enduro mtb with similar geo. A big problem is that a lot of ebikes have long chainstays, that throws off the balance of the bike (front-heavy, makes the front wheel hard to loft). The different balance is going to require different technique to corner and handle technical sections.

When doing a group ride with others on normal bikes, an ebiker has the potential to have the hardest ride by riding with the assist off, but also the potential to have the easiest ride. They have the potential to hang with the slower people who are in the back, yet also the potential to hang with the faster people in front. You can choose whatever intensity level you desire yet maintain a similar pace.

You also have the ability to hang with road bikers and XC racers on an enduro emtb, as long as they don't average a pace faster than the emtb's cut-off speed. This versatility reduces the need for a quiver. There's less urge to pick a bike to cripple/handicap you when riding with people of varying experience levels.

Lots of opportunity and versatility from an ebike. It makes me reconsider all the sleazy habits of the bike community. While an ebike is like a huge step up in terms of performance upgrades, it actually has mostly cured upgrade-itis for me (the burning urge to consider performance upgrades). I even use it to commute, since the motor helps me carry the 10+ lbs of locks that I feel it needs to be secure, sitting outside of a commercial building.

I personally try to manage my battery to go as many miles as possible, and end up going on accidental epics, following my desire to explore. I seemingly just pass by new interesting routes and decide to try 'em, because I have a battery to help curb my anxiety (conservative risk management). I'm not held back by whatever food/drink I brought, since the battery counts as a fuel source. Those locks I carry make it so I'm more likely to stop to supply while out and about. This battery management habit of mine also has me always using the lowest power setting whenever possible, including pedaling with no assist.

My non-ebike riding buddies seem to be continuing with small tweaks to the usual routes they always ride, while I mostly was out trying to discover new stuff, exploring everything within battery range of my home.











Here's what has gotten added to my heat map.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I just burnt 5 calories pouring a shot of whiskey! Or did I gain from drinking it? I don’t know and don’t care. An Ebike is better than not riding, fair enough?


----------



## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> I did the same thing.
> 
> I rode the Same 18 minute loop I have ridden at all out race Pace many times on my Race bike.
> 
> I was 2 minutes faster overall than my all time PR. I gained nothing on the downhill half and gained 2 minutes on the up hill half.


I did a test the other way around. Rode up a hill on my normal bike. Then repeated the hill climb on the e-bike _at the same_ speed as my first ride. My heart rate was 20% lower. 161bpm average vs 127bpm


----------



## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Sooooooooo after 9 pages, we seem to have settled at:


If you add 250ish extra watts to your total power output you will go faster
If you keep your total power output the same but off-load 250ish watts of it to an electric motor instead of your heart and lungs you won't be as tired

Remarkable!


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Mudguard said:


> I did a test the other way around. Rode up a hill on my normal bike. Then repeated the hill climb on the e-bike _at the same_ speed as my first ride. My heart rate was 20% lower. 161bpm average vs 127bpm


I’ve done that too. My average HR was Z2 for a comparable z4 ride pace, and that was in eco. 

For one of my family members, the ebike is amazing. 170 watts is race pace for him. At his weight 260lbs, he needs to run the bike in medium just to keep up with my wife and I on analog/acoustic bikes because he needs about 490 total watts to move him up a climb as fast as my wife can go. For him, an ebike is twice as fast, but it uses a lot of the battery because of how much he relies on it. It’s great, because we can do long fast rides with him. 

For me 170 watts is a warmup spin pace, and my HR would be 120 like you said. 

But for a fast rider, once you add enough power to the equation, it’s just too much for the trail. So you can’t double your speed, because you can stay on the throttle the whole time on a legit trail loop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

