# When to size lightweight rider up from 16" to 20"?



## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

My son was on a Giant Pre from 18 months to 3 years when he switched to a Spawn Yoji 16". I should have started with a 14" as he regressed quite a bit. The last year (4.5-5.5) he has looked really confident on the Yoji, but I finally took him for some real MTB and the 16" wheels don't have enough roll over (or suspension...). He mostly rides the Yoji like a DJ at skateparks, but I imagine that will change in the next few years.

He's about 50-60th percentile for height, but consistently 10th for weight.

At 44" tall with a 19" inseam he meets the Spawn 20" minimum size chart. But the Yoji is 13 lbs, so about a third of his 37 lbs body weight. The 20" hard tail Spawn is 22lbs IIRC, which is like 60% of his body weight. He won't reach a 1:3 bike:body weight ratio for that bike, based on the CDC growth chart, until he is 11, by which he'll be way too tall obviously.

Only time I've ever ridden something that heavy in comparison to me, it was rolling dirt bikes down hills where the engine wouldn't restart, and it sucks.

EDIT:
Here's a price chart and other info

Hard tails:
Spawn Yama Jama 20" - $1050 22lbs - 68 HTA, 10 spd GX, 80mm, 19 inch standover, 130mm cranks, 30t x 11-36 gearing
Spawn Kotori - DJ - $1050 21lbs? - 68 HTA, SS, 80mm
Trail Craft Blue Sky 20 - $1700 - 19lbs - 68.5 HTA, 10spd Zee, 80mm, 127mm cranks, 20 inch stand over, 26-32t x 11-36
Lil Shredder Icon 20" - $2250 - ? lbs - 80mm, 16"/18" frame 
Flow 20 - $1100 - 21 lbs - 67-68 HTA, 10spd GX, 80mm, 135mm cranks, 30t x 11-36
Flow 20 Carbon - $1600 - 20lbs - 67-68 HTA, 10spd GX, 80mm
Prevelo Zulu 3 - $900-$1200 - 22.2lbs - 67 deg HTA - 10spd Zee, 80mm, 120mm cranks, 30-32t x 11-36
Commencal Meta HT 20+ - $899, 67.5hta 19 inch stand over

Full Suspension
Spawn Rokkusuta 20 - $1950 - 25-26 lbs? - 66 deg HTA, 100mm travel, 10 spd 
Lil Shredder Prodigy - $2950 - didn't find specs


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

He'll be fine on the Spawn 20" if he is a decent rider. You are right on the weight but their isn't much you can do unless you go rigid with carbon forks or drop a TON of cash on something super light.

Rollover does suck on 16" wheels but whatever, he'll gain great skills by going a bit slower and learning to deal with it instead of just rolling over it.

Regardless, you are going to have to get a 20" at some point. Fwiw Prevelo makes a new hard tail now. I'm not a fan of the looks but I do like 67d HTA instead of Spawns 68. Its important to have a slacker HTA on a Hardtail as under sag it gets steeper quick unlike a FS bike. Not sure about their spec and other stuff but its a nice bike too.

Those frames are great starting places. You can buy it and then start to upgrade if needed to drop weight.

NOW, that being said, you could just get the Trail Craft 20" too...its lighter but more money. Probably exactly what you are looking for. 19lbs with everything on it. The suspension is pretty sick (same as Spawn, Lil Shredder). I bet Brian at Lil Shredder could also dial you into something ultra light too.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

We'll stick with the 16" for now, but I figure by next summer he'll be on something else, at least for trails. We've run into a couple really good riders at skateparks who are the same height, and they are on 12" and 14". 

I have to start to prepare the wife for the price tag; I'm not scared because I know how much my own bike cost  She was a bit miffed at $400 for the Yoji, but given the number of hours he has spent on the bike, it's cheap as entertainment goes.

The Trail Craft looks good, hadn't seen that before. $600 to shave 3 pounds though, heh... The Lil Shredder is $2250, and I don't see a weight listed. We'll be driving through Troutdale in February tho, so maybe I'll see if I can drop by.

I thought the Spawn HT was 66 degree? I just emailed them to ask...


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

We were in a similar boat here, with a tall 3.5yo trying to decide the next step up from a 14" Yoji. His seat is at 18" right now with feet able to touch the ground somewhat easily.

I ordered a 16" Yoji, but am adding a 20" Suntour air fork with a new 16" front wheel built up for front disc brakes to make it easier to ride over things on the local trails.

Having measured, the A2C measurement with no sag on the Suntour is about 100mm longer than stock fork, but the stock bars are about 100mm higher than a flat bar, so it should wind up with similar reach, but slacker HA.

In theory you could do something similar with an 18" or 20" wheel up front as well (20" might be make it easier to find disc wheels. but would have a much bigger effect on the geometry).

Rim came in today & hub came in yesterday, so I'll be heading over to the local BMX shop soon to see about having them build up the wheel.

Here's what I've ordered so far -- once everything is together I'll post a thread with photos and more details:

Fork - Suntour XCM HLO AIR SL 20 (1780g uncut):
https://www.srsuntour.us/products/xcm-air-sl-20?variant=5280456572959

Brake - TRP Spyke Mechanical Disc (169g):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRP-SPYKE-...-W-160mm-Rotor-Front-Rear-or-F-R/202475414458

Rotor - Lightweight (68g):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/68g...-Road-Racing-Bike-Brake-Disc/32887975517.html

Rim - Kinlin 305 double wall (180g):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fre...20-24-28hole-black-silver-red/2051321134.html

Hub - Circus Monkey HDW2 (119g):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253961531886

QR Skewer - Titanium hex bolt (??g for just the front, 35g for pair):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-P...-MTB-Wheels-Locking-Security/32851247608.html

Bars - ControlTech SUP 28A (155g uncut):
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Tech-SUP-Flat-Handlebar/dp/B00BV3YL32

Stem - Wren 50mm (74g):
https://wrensports.com/product/crazy-lightweight-aluminum-stem/


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## BikePilot1 (May 15, 2006)

My son is about the same height and a little heavier (about 43" and 40lbs). He was on a modded 14" commencal ramones and I just put him on a 24/20" mixer I built. We live on the side of a mountain and our local trails are steep and involve about 2' climb top to bottom, so weight was super critical. I got his bike down to 16lbs. I think the ideal is to go with the biggest wheels he can physically fit, but keep the weight down. Kids bikes aren't any cheaper to build light than adult bikes for the most part (rims and frames are cheaper, the rest is all basically the same).


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Hey BikePilot1, what parts did you use? What was the frame?


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Here's the Prevelo Zulu 3
https://prevelobikes.com/products/zulu-three

22.2 lbs

Hmm all the Alexrims which I have encountered have been c#[email protected]


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## BikePilot1 (May 15, 2006)

fitek said:


> Hey BikePilot1, what parts did you use? What was the frame?


I've got full thread on it with all the details. I'll bump it up.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

URL is https://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/ultimate-20-bike-build-1092907.html
For the record.

Will have to digest this over the weekend


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Here's a summary:
Spawn Jama 20" - $1050 22lbs - 68 deg HTA 
Spawn Kotori - DJ - $1050 21lbs? - ditto
Trail Craft Blue Sky 20 - $1700 - 68.5 HTA
Lil Shredder 16" frame or 18" frame 20" - $2250
Flow 20 - $1100 - 21 lbs - 67-68 HTA
Flow 20 Carbon - $1600 - 20lbs - 
Prevelo Zulu 3 - $900-$1200 - 67 deg HTA - no weight listed

This was Spawn's reply:
"Thanks for the message! Setting it up tubeless will shave off about 1/3 lb and if you went with some carbon components it'll help get the weight down a bit too. We usually recommend a 1psi per rider weight for the fork pressure setting and given that your kiddo is so light, you won't be able to get the full 80mm of travel out of it. Hope this helps and please let me know if you have any other questions,"


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Commencals Meta+ is the best frame and Fork setup imo, but the thing needs new cranks, wider cassette (11-36 9sp) and new tires (those big plus tires are crappy heavy and you don't need them on the bike). 

The frame geo is really nice, tho a slacker hta would be nice. Killer feature is the 100mm of travel instead of just 80...not to mention to get all 80 out of that fork you need to shave down the bumper inside of it. (same issue with Commencal fork too as they are same design).

So:
Cassette: 40$
127mm direct mount Cranks and BB and 28t chainring: 160$
Maxtion tires (best) 90$ or Vee Crown Gem (good) 50$:

So a little extra work to get that bike up to par but maybe a sweet 100mm option for same price.

A 1d offset headset would bring the front end down a bit and slacken the HTA a degree obviously. If that could be done cheap that'd be sweet.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Maybe if I'm screwed on weight, just go full suspension? Heh. The Commencal looks good. I think my son wanted green though 

I think we're going to continue riding concrete parks on the 16" bike, so the full suspension would be quiet different. Would be able to ride the same stuff I am riding. If it works out for him.

This poster says the Spawn fork is better than the Flow's...
https://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/used-shredder-prodigy-vs-rokkusuta-20-a-1051723.html


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

By the way, I checked. My son is 44.5" tall (3 ft 8.5 in). He grew 3 inches over the last year.

The Rokkusuta min height is 46, so we might get there this summer. 
Commencal is about the same. Listed weight looks slightly less than the Spawn for the Supreme.
https://www.commencalusa.com/supreme-20-shiny-red-2018-c2x26311550


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Spawns, Trailcraft, prevelo (Heir), Lil shredder, Commencal new stuff... They all use the same fork design. It's amazing and a big upgrade imo. It really works for kids. 

He'll be fine on a 21lb bike eventually. That's light enough. The Yoji DJ bike is money too... Hang on to that and throw riser bars on it as he grows. That BMX freestyle stuff is great for variety and skill development. Spawn Green is a beautiful bike. We love ours. FS is cool, tho my kid rides everything I do (even some DH race) on his green Yama Jama 20". They learn to ride that chunder properly. Our 24" will be a FS.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

fitek said:


> By the way, I checked. My son is 44.5" tall (3 ft 8.5 in). He grew 3 inches over the last year.
> 
> The Rokkusuta min height is 46, so we might get there this summer.
> Commencal is about the same. Listed weight looks slightly less than the Spawn for the Supreme.
> https://www.commencalusa.com/supreme-20-shiny-red-2018-c2x26311550


That supreme is an odd bike. Only a single speed instead of Spawn 10sp. Cranks are WAY to long too and would def need to be swapped. It's not as bad as the 24" (which is awful geometry) but it's a little different. I wouldn't buy it over spawn as I'd want 10sp for sure.


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## eyeballs (Sep 16, 2016)

I just upgraded my 7yr old (she's tiny) from a spawn 16" to 20". I thought the weight thing was going to be a major issue as well, but she has not complained once about the weight (she's still under 40lbs) even pushing the bike up stuff she can't pedal. And we've also just started doing longer rides now as well. The only issue is the 130mm cranks are too long for her, and the fact that she still likes to always have the seat down isn't helping. I put on the 28t ring for her thinking it would help, but she refuses to sit and spin on the climbs and would probably be fine with a 32t chainring.

Now I have about 6 mos to decide whether to put her big sis on a 24" or wait until she can fit on a 26" bike.


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## BikePilot1 (May 15, 2006)

FWIW I don't think I've ever heard a kid complain about weight, but I've seen plenty putter out on hills when on heavy bikes. The difference in climbing ability for a 40lbs kid when going from a mid-20lbs bike to a mid-teens bike is huge. The more climbing y'all do, the more I'd focus on weight.


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## eyeballs (Sep 16, 2016)

I'm not saying weight isn't a huge factor....that's why I spent so much on a nice spawn yj for her. In the case of a single speed 16" vs a 10spd 20", the 10spd has a tremendous gearing advantage. When she figures out the right gear (and is in the right mood), my daughter is climbing WAY better than before....longer distance and steeper stuff, compared to the 10lb lighter banshee. But apples to apples, less weight will always make everything easier.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

So then it's between the Flow and the Kotori. Given I assume it will be easier to get the Spawn (shipping to Portland OR), I'm inclined to go that way. If he has any problems, I can start putting lighter parts on it. I don't know how much difference that one degree of HA makes between the Spawn and the Flow, especially since he is used to 70 degrees on the Yoji and concrete park riding.

EDIT: I asked again, and now he wants a red bike. Only the Trailcraft comes in red. Course I could get it powder coated for less than $100.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Ah you are in PDX, the Lumberyard is the ticket! Perfect sport to ride a Kotori DJ. We ride there a lot. That DJ park in Tualatin looks decent. Obviously the Greenway is great too. Our Yama Jama shipped from Los Angeles warehouse to Oregon iirc. Flow prob ships from their place in Colorado.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Actually, I'm not in PDX  But should be there or Seattle by summer. I don't want to have yet more stuff to jam in the car when we move, so I'm just mailing it there-- We got a place to stash it. 

Love the lumberyard. Planning to be there next Friday when the new pizza place opens.

I actually meant to say Yama Jama. I started taking my son trail riding this month. He looks good on the Yoji, but, besides the wheels being a bit small to handle the roots, the rim brakes don't really work so well when it's wet. And single speed. Not an issue at a park (I ride brakeless BMX) but not ideal for the sort of trails he is capable of riding...


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Svinyard, I looked at some of the other threads you have commented on, so maybe this is helpful: We're probably going to end up either in Hood River area or Bellingham. Post Canyon in HR is pretty smooth, I'm sure a hard tail is sufficient. Galbraith, not so sure. 

Then there's the concrete parks in both locations (HR and Bingen are both great, the one in B'Ham not so much, but there's pump tracks and dirt jumps to make up for it).


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Link to the Commencal Meta HT 20+ - $899
67.5hta 19 inch stand over (seems pretty standard)


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

fitek said:


> Svinyard, I looked at some of the other threads you have commented on, so maybe this is helpful: We're probably going to end up either in Hood River area or Bellingham. Post Canyon in HR is pretty smooth, I'm sure a hard tail is sufficient. Galbraith, not so sure.
> 
> Then there's the concrete parks in both locations (HR and Bingen are both great, the one in B'Ham not so much, but there's pump tracks and dirt jumps to make up for it).


Pizza joint is open at the Yard and a bit of a downgrade lol. New arcade is nice in there tho. Pho joint next door is the jam.

Hood is good these days man and only like 8k people! (I don't know Bellingham that well but riding is super buff I hear). We raised 150k$ in a summer for the new Velosolution pumptrack and its awesome. Lower post is smoother but upper enduro trails have some terrain as well as some uber freeride stuff that I'll never ride but guessing my kid will (his coach does). Also putting in some new intermediate freeride lines that are more kid friendly. New jump lines for kids are going in to support the two teams we have and younger riders. We ride post but everyone migrates around to the other systems within 20min to find that hero dirt (wet is east, dry is up or west). Right now its Syncline on east side which is all rocky stuff. Upper Mt. Hood is super rad off hwy 44 stuff. Timberline's Bike park was running for early release this late summer and we'll be all over that this summer, looks legit and way nicer than SkiBowl's!! In town tho we just pedal 1 mile (or less) in any direction and hit skate park or velo track or post (we live on Post Canyon drive). Its hard to beat and your kid can jump in with either team this spring, summer, fall. Mom can shuttle you up to the top of Post and your little guy can ride 10 miles downhill (on 5 degree grade green trails) all the way home. Pretty sweet, the new green climbing trail to upper really makes for a nice DH run for new riders. Boring for the 6-7yro but great for my 4yro. Of course you can hit the fun stuff, skip those green lines once the kid shreds and ride out to the bike bar for pFriem beers for Dad and Italian sodas for the kid. Pretty rad and the smores at the firepit are free in the evenings!

I've liked the 20" hardtail and am happy he's ridden it from 5 to 7. There have been days he could have used a FS but we've ridden everything including some NW Cup races at Stevens Pass and the Hardtail has cut it. Its freaky watching your 6yr skip across the tops of rocks on a race run tho...if you plan on racing that stuff a lot, you for sure want a nice FS like Lil Shredder or Spawn or Commencal Clash. Good luck!


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I think the big thing about Seattle and Bellingham is that the dirt doesn't turn to peanut butter in winter, doesn't freeze as much either, but it's still plenty wet and lots of roots and rocks. I rode Galbraith last Friday while it was pouring. Got totally soaked and flow trails were a bit slippery but the chunky trails were plenty of fun. 

(My wife might have to go into Seattle for a couple days every week, which would be a lot easier from B'ham than HR. Dunno, we'll see)

I remeasured my son and he grew 0.5" over the last month, so we're closer to the minimums for the FS bikes  At $1700, the Trailcraft is almost as much $$$ as the Spawn FS, but 25% lighter. I'll try and see what bikes are sitting around at the Lumberyard next weekend and see if my son can throw a leg over. 

What bike did your kid have?

@503bmx at Lumberyard does powder coating.


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## WTomlin76 (Jun 13, 2018)

First off, I'm WAY jealous of the riding you guys have out in WA, especially considering the relatively warm and muddy weather we've been having in the Mid-Atlantic.

Anyway, I wanted to add the Norco Charger 2.1 to your list for a few reasons. Out the door of your LBS for under $700 you get a bike that is ready to be modded to fit your kiddo. With a square taper BB you're open to the world of ultra-small BMX cranks, perfect for smaller kids.

Here's a link to the thread describing the one I built for my daughter. We're looking forward to really putting that bike through the paces this spring but I'm confident that it will ride as well or better than my son's >$1100 boutique bike.

https://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/plug-norco-charger-2-1-a-1093449.html


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

fitek said:


> He's about 50-60th percentile for height, but consistently 10th for weight. 37 lbs body weight.
> 
> Only time I've ever ridden something that heavy in comparison to me, it was rolling dirt bikes down hills where the engine wouldn't restart, and it sucks.


Yeah, riding heavy bikes sucks. I built a 31.5 pound carbon Sentinel in the fall and good lord pulling the extra 3 pounds uphill isn't as fun as some of my old bikes on longer rides with good amounts of climbing. It's almost like we've moved forward with the new geo but backwards in terms of bike weight.

Squabbling over 1 degree of headtube angle and 10mm of chainstay/wheelbase is moot. Just 2 pound lighter bike for a 37 pound kid is the biggest performance upgrade you can make. I joked in another thread (20" plus bike thread) than nothing says I love you more than 700 gram 20x2.8" tires, and it's the truth.

Some advise a good friend (with older kids than mine) told me when my kids were your kids age/weight was to buy the lightest bike I could afford. Things like headtube angle, chainstay length, wheelbase are less important (to a point) but 3-4 pounds bike weight difference when you are a 37-40 pound kid is pretty darn huge.


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## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

Bellingham has an awesome kids scene! My kid would love to have that scene and Whistler next door but we have warm water surf and direct 5 hour flight to the PNW.

We went through the 12, 14, 16, 20 HT and 20 FS and moving to him up to 24 FS now even though he is still only 48" tall, small for his age. We've introduced him to larger wheel sizes before he's reached the recommended height and once he's felt the better roll there's no going back. However the plan is to keep the 20 HT for skatepark, pumptrack, dj, type riding. He wants to start doing more tricks. We've had him on the Commencals because they are smaller and a good value. Never been too hung up on weight, more into fit and value. Pretty casual riding where we live, no xc racing scene, no hurry to get up the hill, if we are, I tow him.

We do a couple weeks at Whistler and after his first time down easy does it on the 20 HT we knew an FS would be added to the quiver. Common theme when the parents are bike geeks and want the kids to have max fun. He likes to ride the gnar, jumps and drops here at home too. 

Good deals to be had right now on the Spawns.


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## foxpuppet (Jan 2, 2011)

Commencal has a new bike dropping in June. Not sure on pricing or full spec, but I saw somewhere 20" is 9spd, 130mm travel and most of the Same spec of the outgoing supreme model.









Clash

VS









Supreme

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

FYI I had my son ride a 14" Cult Juvenile BMX. Instantly he looked better than the Yoji (at least, at the Lumberyard indoor bike park), though it is heavier than the Yoji.

Juvenile 14: 
17lbs as measured by the owner-- Cult provides no weight spec
14.5" TT
112mm cranks
no published HA, looks steeper than 71 deg

Yoji 16
13ish lbs
14.96" TT
103mm cranks
71 deg HA

I'm not sure what to think since he seemed better off on the heavier bike on small table tops. At the very least, the extra 4 lbs wasn't a hindrance.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Commencal Clash
https://www.commencalusa.com/clash-20-c2x26684108

No weight listed. I think this bike would be too burly for my kid.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Spawn bikes are out of stock.

I spoke w Brett @ TrailCraft... he talked about how they focus on keeping the weight low, whereas Spawn makes burlier bikes that also lets them hit lower price points. This is also in line with riding styles say BC vs Colorado. E.g. thru axle vs QR on the front wheel; the QR is lighter but just fine for the riding in CO and midwest which is more XC oriented. He also noted that kids can spend quite a few years on a 24", so focus on that bike rather than 20", which will probably get 2 seasons of use.

I'm gonna guess stuff like QR vs a 15mm thru axle doesn't matter much on a 20" wheel with a 38 pound rider...


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I checked on the Transition Ripcord (24"), and they state "Ideal height range starts at 3'8" and goes up to 5' with the ideal height being right in the middle around 4'4"-4'6"."

3'8" is 44 inches. But, uh, I have a hard time imagining my kid on a 24" bike. 4'4" is 8 inches in the future, which I imagine is a few years. NM, it's almost 29 lbs  The Spawn is lighter (28 lbs) but a few hundred more expensive. Again, the Trailcraft Maxwell 24" is even lighter (24-26 lbs) you pay $1000 over the Spawn to save those 4 lbs.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

On the FS route, Rossignol's All Track Trail 20 is 24lbs and ~$1200:
https://www.rossignol.com/us/rossignol-all-track-trail-20-bikes-bike-rmh0017-0000tu-2018-2019.html

Published specs are sketchy, but there seem to be quite a few resorts stocking them as rental bikes, so I have to imagine that they're pretty decently built.

Using an online protractor to measure based on the stock photos, it looks like the HTA angle is 67 degrees:
https://www.ginifab.com/feeds/angle_measurement/

Q&A from the shop I'd asked that measured one built up at 24lbs:
https://www.levelninesports.com/rossignol-all-track-trail-20-1

Lowest price I see currently ($1100 + $75 shipping):
https://suburbanskiandbike.com/Rossignol-All-Track-Trail-20-RMH0017/

For a cheaper HT option:

Vitus 20Plus plus a Suntour 20" air fork would run ~$450:
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/vitus-20plus-kids-bike/rp-prod168789
https://www.srsuntour.us/products/xcm-air-sl-20?variant=5280456572959

From the more recent reviews on the Vitus, it sounds like the seatpost, handlebars, & stem are all pretty heavy, so there's likely to be plenty of opportunities to offset the weight of adding the suspension fork.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

fitek said:


> 3'8" is 44 inches. But, uh, I have a hard time imagining my kid on a 24" bike.


It's amazing what they imagine themselves riding, through -- my almost 4-year-old son was tagging along at the Performance Bike closing sales and got excited by some of the bikes -- pulling on me a little, he tells me "Look, there's a BMX bike my size!" I turn around to look and he runs over to a 24" kids road bike and starts trying to climb on...


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Full specs list for Rossignal 20" FS in the link below. 66d Headtube Angle. 24lbs seems pretty light for the price, thats a good number. Wish I could see the geometry, tho backend doesn't look too long and 324mm of reach isn't bad. 1100$ is a nice price! If you are a ski instructor or part of that group, you can get the PAII or whatever its called, discount. Cranks in the pic don't look horrible actually. (NX Cranks were photoshopped)

https://www.levelninesports.com/rossignol-all-track-trail-20-1


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

How is the Rossignol 24 lbs? it looks like lower end parts than the others, and it's lighter...

Also note the single pivot rear suspension.

EDIT: despite my griping, it's looks like a good choice for park riding.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I ordered the Trailcraft Blue Sky 20. We're spending Spring Break in Bellingham and there is zero chance I'd be able to get something together on my own in the next 4 weeks with my schedule. I'll let ya folks know how it goes. I was leaning towards the Spawn, but when it went out of stock, the decision was made 

I also signed up my son for a week of camp at Lumberyard (his spring break is two weeks this year! I can't take off that much time). Will use the Yoji for that.

Fun chatting with Brett too.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Spawn has 20" Yama Jamas in stock today. Every color.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Our Blue Sky 20 shipped today. Quick turn around.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

We've gotten some time in on the Blue Sky 20 and a friend's kid got the Yama Jama 20. The Yama Jama is definitely burlier and has a lower stand over height. However it came with a wonky thru axle and a bent derailleur hanger. Or maybe the latter happened during assembly, dunno. Either way had to get it fixed at a shop and then adjust the derailleur. The Blue Sky 20 is noticeably lighter and worked straight out of the box.

The seat and the pedals on the Blue Sky 20 are definitely gonna get swapped out. The Yama Jama has legit MTB pedals, but the Blue Sky 20's, while light weight, are absolutely cheesy. The left hand one doesn't even spin on ours and the grip is meh in the rainy and muddy conditions we've been riding in. The seat is, uh, firm, and kind of flat.

If I had a bigger kid, I'd recommend the Yama Jama for the PNW riding we do. But I don't, and the Blue Sky 20 is working really well.

It took about 2 hours of riding for my kid to sort out the gears.

Here's a video of both bikes at Gateway Green in Portland Oregon.

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bv_4fFbhwZU/

Have some video from Galbraith (U-line and Atomic Dog) also.

I took some comparison video but have to copy it off my DSLR still...


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## eyeballs (Sep 16, 2016)

So far all 3 spawn bikes I've received made the cross country trip (CA to GA) with no issues. I did have to true a wheel on the 16" bike but that was it. That being said, I have a feeling the next bike will be a 24" trailcraft.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

eyeballs said:


> So far all 3 spawn bikes I've received made the cross country trip (CA to GA) with no issues. I did have to true a wheel on the 16" bike but that was it. That being said, I have a feeling the next bike will be a 24" trailcraft.


TC are super expensive which is appropriate but the travel is low for kids that ride. Of course kids can still ride the terrain, my kid raced DH on a hardtail. But there are advantages to more travel/confidence/safety. You are going to see longer travel trail bikes just like the adult bikes have. With kids low weights and limited bob, there isn't a pedal penalty for a bit more travel than 100mm. Often a 120 or 140mm suspension is the same weight as well unless you are talking about 1,000$ Fox Step Cast stuff.

Keep an eye out this month and particularly this week. You'll see some new stuff that will change the game a bit I'm guessing.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

So did anything happen? 

I am riding shorter travel bikes myself, I'm on my 3rd Transition Scout and also demoed the Evil Calling and quite liked that too. We both prefer smooth flowey jump lines, which you could ride on a DJ probably, except that climbing the mountain on a DJ sucks. So I don't know that more travel would help.


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## foxpuppet (Jan 2, 2011)

svinyard said:


> TC are super expensive which is appropriate but the travel is low for kids that ride. Of course kids can still ride the terrain, my kid raced DH on a hardtail. But there are advantages to more travel/confidence/safety. You are going to see longer travel trail bikes just like the adult bikes have. With kids low weights and limited bob, there isn't a pedal penalty for a bit more travel than 100mm. Often a 120 or 140mm suspension is the same weight as well unless you are talking about 1,000$ Fox Step Cast stuff.
> 
> Keep an eye out this month and particularly this week. You'll see some new stuff that will change the game a bit I'm guessing.


Did we miss it?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I was hoping to see a few more things to drop at SeaOtter but they aren't out yet.

-Spawn is dropping a new bike but not there yet.
-Lil Shredder is doing an updated bike (I think) that is now around 2300$-2500$

The big drop (in my opinion) was the Manitou/Hayes/Protaper kids line. Gamechanger there for sure.


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## WTomlin76 (Jun 13, 2018)

I agree on the Hayes stuff. Their Junit line looks awesome; those bars will definitely be a game changer. As soon as they’re back in stock I’ll have some on my 4 yo daughter’s Norco.

UPDATE: They’re back in stock. Bought some!


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

svinyard said:


> I was hoping to see a few more things to drop at SeaOtter but they aren't out yet.
> 
> -Spawn is dropping a new bike but not there yet.
> -Lil Shredder is doing an updated bike (I think) that is now around 2300$-2500$
> ...


Spawn Rokk 24/26. 64 deg HA, 140mm travel. $2500.
https://spawncycles.com/rokk-26?mc_cid=394781f154&mc_eid=448edc0388


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

From Spawn: The Rokk 24" approximately weighs 27.5lbs and 26" approximately 28lbs. Let us know if any more questions!


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

fitek said:


> From Spawn: The Rokk 24" approximately weighs 27.5lbs and 26" approximately 28lbs. Let us know if any more questions!


64 degree head angle, 27.5" fork, and 438mm chainstays on the 24". Big/long/slack DH crusher!


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## foxpuppet (Jan 2, 2011)

*When to size lightweight rider up from 16" to 20"?*










Have been creeping my daughter's saddle up every 3 or 4 weeks to get her legs to be better positioned (knees were very cramped at top of pedal stroke)

She has the older Spawn banshee 16" from a few years ago.

As a result she had been getting longer and longer rides in with me around the streets. However off-road she gets bounced around a lot and the bike is very short wheelbase with steep HA making her feel very nervous on little downhills.

Luckily the Australian Distributor of Commencal moved from one company in another state to 30min drive from my house run by a couple with kids the same age. I got to see the 2019 Meta HT 20" yesterday in the flesh instead of just the online drool pics.

Dropped the cash on the spot and they had it built up today for me.



































spawn weight








Commencal Meta

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks for posting the photos and bike weight.

Get your daughter standing on the pedals 

My son broke his Bell Super 3r this past weekend OTB. Switching to a DH helmet (7idp m1). Looking forward to MTBing the week of the 4th.

Here's the Spawn 20"

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http://instagr.am/p/BytcztTFxkB/


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http://instagr.am/p/Byyz293FjiJ/

I still have to edit the side by side video w/ the TrailCraft Blue Sky 20.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

fitek said:


> Thanks for posting the photos and bike weight.
> 
> Get your daughter standing on the pedals
> 
> ...


Ha, Float On there on Post. Such a fun run. There's a couple of senders on there too! Hit me up again when you are in town and we'll shuttle up Binns and ride back to our house with the kids and drinks some beers.

Did you make that wooden jump or buy it? (he's flying there!!) I like how the legs seem to expand out making it portable.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

svinyard said:


> Ha, Float On there on Post. Such a fun run. There's a couple of senders on there too! Hit me up again when you are in town and we'll shuttle up Binns and ride back to our house with the kids and drinks some beers.
> 
> Did you make that wooden jump or buy it? (he's flying there!!) I like how the legs seem to expand out making it portable.


That's actually a friend of ours in Portland. I was wondering about the ramp too.
Our wooden jump is here:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Btuv8OVBa6-/

They did the spring break camp at lumberyard on the Yoji and a 14" Fit BMX. 

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bv_6LG1hdIJ/

Afterwards we tried out the Spawn 20" hard tail and Trail Craft at Gateway Green:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bv_4fFbhwZU/

We'll be in White Salmon on the Sunday and Monday before July 4. Rest of the week is kinda up in the air at the moment as we're trying to find a place to live in Bellingham.

EDIT: I changed our flights to be from PDX on Friday. We're going to hit Post Canyon Fri AM and let the kids try the Yama Jama vs Blue Sky. Should be fun!


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Pichoors of the Yama Jama vs the Trail Craft. Finally stared editing the video. Hopefully get that done next week.


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## eyeballs (Sep 16, 2016)

Slightly OT but...Just looked up the lumberyard. Legit after-school bike instruction!? And I thought getting my girls into after-school karate was handy. That's awesome!


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

eyeballs said:


> Slightly OT but...Just looked up the lumberyard. Legit after-school bike instruction!? And I thought getting my girls into after-school karate was handy. That's awesome!


It's pretty awesome there. Some kids riding there are world class. Nice when they open up the outside and the big airbag looks cool too.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

We sessioned stuff at Family Man for a while, then climbed up the fire road and rode down upper grand prix. My kid climbs better (he doesn't mind it) but his friend descends almost as well as I do (and he's not even six yet). Didn't end up swapping bikes, but I think it wouldn't have mattered. They took off, we descended down Float On to Seven Streams. My son didn't have enough gas in the tank for Kleeway.

We did upgrade my son's shoes to Vans. Now if only he'd keep his feet on the pedals when he panics.

I signed him up for Lumberyard summer camp Aug 5-9.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

TimTucker said:


> It's amazing what they imagine themselves riding, through -- my almost 4-year-old son was tagging along at the Performance Bike closing sales and got excited by some of the bikes -- pulling on me a little, he tells me "Look, there's a BMX bike my size!" I turn around to look and he runs over to a 24" kids road bike and starts trying to climb on...


This made me laugh-- my son got on one of those and started riding it around the store, waving at me as he's passing by! He was begging for so long to get one-- by then they were maybe a hundred bucks as it was closing days--so it was hard to say no, haha. But I know it would be super fun for a few weeks and then just sit there!


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