# IMBA will not publish "Impacts of eMTB Use on Trails" study



## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

According to an article, published on imba.com:
The results of the land manager survey and social impacts analysis are still being compiled; full study results will be released in early 2016.
https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results

Now IMBA got a new Communications Director who says they don't intend to release the report, allthough they are aware it was mentioned they would publish it. Mentioned? I'd say they announced it.

Something happened it seems. Anyone got any knowledge about the report?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

There's been some turnover at IMBA. Please present factual info that "they don't intend to release the report".


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

Makes me wonder, sorry, can't help it. If the study had shown that the impact from class1 ebikes is significantly worse than a regular bike, there would have been no turnover at IMBA and the report would have been published!?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Makes me wonder if the impact is significantly worse, and pressure from bike companies and industry politics is preventing the release.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Interesting!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

f4k3;12694165Now IMBA got a new Communications Director who says they don't intend to release the report said:


> Source?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

IMBA? That organization lost any credibility it had and is fighting to keep its head above water. Not releasing info that might negatively affect a new revenue stream that they desperately need reeks of desperation.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

They lost Subaru and were under budget pressure to begin with. Major problems at IMBA. I hope they do release the e-bike info, and I've heard nothing to indicate otherwise. Do you have any links?

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Golly imagine a group of people responsible for administering a public resource guidelines being unable to properly manage corporate expectations vs. public expectations...


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

They are probably too busy volunteering to trail build.........isn't that what every pMTBer does when not working or riding? You have to earn access to the trails somehow, as I've been repeatedly told here, so they probably have a full schedule outside with a shovel. Right?


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

Harryman & Walt:

The statement comes from personal email correspondence with an IMBA representative. I'm not sure it's fair of me to give up the name since I haven't asked the person if it's okay. I guess you will figure it out anyway...

But here's the exact words, copied from my email:
"I know there was mention regarding our investigation on ebikes being released to the public. At this point we are not planning to release or leak any of the findings. 

We are going to continue our focus on working tirelessly on access, trail building and community for self propelled, traditional mountain biking, as this is our area of expertise."

I hope the report will eventually be published. The sudden decision to hold it back makes me wanna read it even more


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> They are probably too busy volunteering to trail build.........isn't that what every pMTBer does when not working or riding? You have to earn access to the trails somehow, as I've been repeatedly told here, so they probably have a full schedule outside with a shovel. Right?


What a pitiful, small man you must be.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Well I think that pretty much proves the e bike point , you guys wont like what it says .


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> What a pitiful, small man you must be.


Well, at least he does not single out individual forum members for a personal insult. 

Have you read the forum guidelines?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

f4k3 said:


> Harryman & Walt:
> 
> The statement comes from personal email correspondence with an IMBA representative. I'm not sure it's fair of me to give up the name since I haven't asked the person if it's okay. I guess you will figure it out anyway...
> 
> ...


Thanks, I guess we'll wait and seem they'll have to announce something officially at some point. Without knowing the scope of the "study", it's hard to say how much weight to put behind it anyway. The only thing I saw regarding it was pics of a bunch of people standing around with clipboards looking at the dirt at the seaotter emtb race. I'd actually be surprised if the findings were that ebikes did more damage than traditional mtbs since I can't imagine their study group was anything but 250-350W bikes.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Well, at least he does not single out individual forum members for a personal insult.
> 
> Have you read the forum guidelines?


Funny coming from a guy that believes the guidelines for the prohibition of motorized vehicles shouldn't apply to him.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Put "IMBA report on emtb" into your browser and you'll be able to read that the initial results suggested that low power PAS ebikes were comparable to MTB's in trail erosion and that they don't plan on reporting further.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

fos'l said:


> Put "IMBA report on emtb" into your browser and you'll be able to read that the initial results suggested that low power PAS ebikes were comparable to MTB's in trail erosion and that they don't plan on reporting further.


There is not a person that cares about the "impact" of e-bikes. We all know that horses, poor cornering technique, weather and poor trail construction are much more caustic to trail conditions than tires or e-assist. The report, if it is just about trail impact is worth nothing because no one cares if e-bikes erode more. The concern is the impact to advocacy. That is all anyone who is anti-electric bikes cares about. They care about the increased impact of adding faster bikes to trails where the current users are content with the status quo and don't feel that the industries push to add one more thing to add sales to bikes is worth the risk to trail advocacy. However perhaps IMBA is afraid to lose support from companies if they come out and say E-bikes are a larger threat to the overall advocacy efforts of IMBA and its subchapters. So perhaps they are weighing their response.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Wow! I thought this thread was about the IMBA report; wouldn't have posted a "link" if "nobody" cared about it. Just keep spreading your bile wherever you can RC.


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Wow! I thought this thread was about the IMBA report; wouldn't have posted a "link" if "nobody" cared about it. Just keep spreading your bile wherever you can RC.


In the opening post I have linked to the imba.com article that presents early findings, the same article says the results will be published early 2016. Could you post the link to the page where it's said no report will be published? I can't find it when googling "imba report on emtb"


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

rockcrusher said:


> There is not a person that cares about the "impact" of e-bikes. We all know that horses, poor cornering technique, weather and poor trail construction are much more caustic to trail conditions than tires or e-assist.


1. Can we quote you in our responses to this common attack?

2. Since you are an Administrator here, is this now official mtbr.com policy?

3. Thanks for hammering another nail in THAT coffin, that's one more objection defeated by actual facts.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

f4k3 said:


> In the opening post I have linked to the imba.com article that presents early findings, the same article says the results will be published early 2016. Could you post the link to the page where it's said no report will be published? I can't find it when googling "imba report on emtb"


Sorry, I misspoke; agree, the only thing was the old data about initial results of the study.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> They are probably too busy volunteering to trail build.........isn't that what every pMTBer does when not working or riding? You have to earn access to the trails somehow, as I've been repeatedly told here, so they probably have a full schedule outside with a shovel. Right?


Who says IMBA consists of mountain bikers? Sarcasm won't earn get you trail acces, by the way.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Well, at least he does not single out individual forum members for a personal insult.
> 
> Have you read the forum guidelines?


Have you?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

WoodlandHills said:


> 1. Can we quote you in our responses to this common attack?
> 
> 2. Since you are an Administrator here, is this now official mtbr.com policy?
> 
> 3. Thanks for hammering another nail in THAT coffin, that's one more objection defeated by actual facts.


Sure you can always point out that there is no trail erosion difference between mountain bikes and ebikes and that the real problem is trail access and user conflict.

If you read MTBR's front page you will see their official policy. I am only an administrator to stop spam on the site and I'd stop doing that if it meant that I had to stand to MTBR's official policy on e-bikes. I honestly believe that e-bikes will present all kinds of problems on the trails. I saw a similar thing happen when those 2 stroke motor bicycles and scooters became trendy 10 years ago and at first everyone embraced them as efficient means of travel and gas saving and all that, and then the accidents started as more and more came on to the streets and cities began banning them outright. The city I lived in did so. I'm sure the initial adopters lauded how little impact they would create and how they would fit in with the current infrastructure until more and more people jumped on board and low and behold they didn't fit into the infrastructure because it wasn't designed around those vehicles. I feel the same thing about e-bikes. You early adopters laud the low impact and the speed limits and the similarity to bikes and how more users helps the cause but you are just the beginning. In 2 years when these have trickled down to walmart and people are riding trails all over it will be a different situation and conflicts will arise. Conflicts that may be between mountain bikers and e-bikers not even other trail users.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't think erosion/soil impacts are a big thing. It's closing speeds and user conflict.

Those are kinda big things, though.

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Walt said:


> I don't think erosion/soil impacts are a big thing. It's closing speeds and user conflict.


and trail density

Yes its an unknown but the hard work involved in pedaling uphill naturally excludes 8 (probably 9) out of 10 people from even attempting it, which is one reason why mountain biking has managed to work well alongside hikers and equestrians in many areas. Elitism? I suppose it could be considered that but it's also a reality.

I agree that erosion is basically a non-issue, unless electric bikes dramatically increase trail density. I doubt that's in the report.


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## Surly29 (Jun 8, 2009)

Walt said:


> I don't think erosion/soil impacts are a big thing. It's closing speeds and user conflict.
> 
> Those are kinda big things, though.


While I agree with this, it happens to be the same argument hikers made against mtn bikes in the 80's.

Should all eBikes never be considered for any multi-use trails because they are different? Would you allow a courteous eBike rider over a reckless mtn bike rider on multi-use trails?

I happened to get buzzed the other day by a downhill rider who figured if he rang his stupid little bell he didn't need to slow down or move out of my way. That guy had a problem with closing speed and he almost got into a user conflict right there (Boy, I would have given him such a dirty look if I had the opportunity).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, and the hikers were at least partially right. If mountain bikes were, say, 50% faster than they are, they'd be *completely* right - you can't drive your scooter on the freeway for the same reason - closing speeds become too high and everyone is in danger. 

I keep saying this: climbing is slow and painful on a mountain bike. That's the only reason we still have access to trails. Make the climb fast and shreddy (word?) and fun, braking into every corner... and we're screwed. Making the flat sections faster isn't helpful either.

It really is just basically speed. Nobody bats an eye at a MUNI, because they're slow. If mountain bikes were 50% slower, we'd have basically no conflicts at all. Adding speed is bad in almost all contexts. Unfortunately part of the joy of mountain biking (and the aim of a lot of the technology we all use) is going faster. But almost all of that tech helps on the downhill only, really - even a 20# carbon wonderbike isn't significantly faster uphill than a 30# 1985 bridgestone - because the power of the rider is very limited.

So of all the tech we could add, increasing rider power is probably the most likely to cause us problems. Instead of spending 75-90% of your ride time going uphill and relatively slowly, you'll be able to go fast *all the time*. That will mean you ride further in the same time, too - meaning more opportunity for conflict. 

Faster, farther, less effort... sounds awesome! And it would be, if it were only bikes on the trails (and we had trails designed to handle the speeds). The reality is different.

I'd also note - we can't control the courteousness, or lack thereof, of the riders. I think that's a given. So while I'd take a courteous moto rider over a jerky mountain biker any day - what we'll end up with is jerky e-bike riders. There's not a karma check to buy a bike.

-Walt


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## Surly29 (Jun 8, 2009)

So true. I read your other post where you said "they" may have been able to limit eBikes to 250w and 10MPH, but now they are too fast and too powerful.

My arguments are pretty weak, but still I think there could be a middle ground where eBikes could be used on certain existing multi-use trails even if they are non-motorized. I'd hate to blanket ban eBikes without giving them the chance to show they are responsible riders. I really felt like I was a half-step away from being banned on my mtb during the 90's, and now as the sport becomes even more popular we are hearing complaints again.


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

Walt said:


> Yeah, and the hikers were at least partially right. If mountain bikes were, say, 50% faster than they are, they'd be *completely* right


But how much faster is a Class1 bike? Here's my experience. It's not like it's gonna hit top speed much on the flats or uphill when you're on a narrow technical single track. If an ebike averages 6mph on a climb while a regular bike averages 3-4mph, will that cause problems? Isn't it the high speed sections that are causing problems? I'd say the ebike is a disadvantage at speeds above the speed limit.

The european equivalent to the Class1 is a Pedelec (15mph/250w). I find that to be sensible limits. I can see how the difference between 15mph and 20mph is enough to cause more conflict in areas with some traffic where the ebikes are able to maintain top speed.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure, but in the US, we're talking about 750W and 20mph. And that assumes nobody modifies one.

-Walt


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

The difference in power between Class1 and Pedelec is not as big as one might think. US: max 750w peak - EU max 250w continous. If we look at Bosch then the EU model is rated 250w continous while the US model is 350w continous.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

f4k3 said:


> The difference in power between Class1 and Pedelec is not as big as one might think. US: max 750w peak - EU max 250w continous. If we look at Bosch then the EU model is rated 250w continous while the US model is 350w continous.


A bit tone deaf aren't you? No one believes for a moment that these wont be hacked to provide multiple amounts of the mandated power levels.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

f4k3 said:


> The difference in power between Class1 and Pedelec is not as big as one might think. US: max 750w peak - EU max 250w continous. If we look at Bosch then the EU model is rated 250w continous while the US model is 350w continous.


Do you have any links to that? I've yet to see any regulations anywhere that specify nominal, peak or continuous wattage and theres been plenty of discussion on other ebike forums regarding the same.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walts point is really what its about the speed dif not 250w 350w that's all smoke n mirror's, its the speed my top speed on my e bike is at its strongest battery is 27.6 mph with me peddling . I ride all the time with hikers never had a problem same for other mtb s .


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

My top speed is determined by my gearing: 20mph on the flat, no pedaling, WOT/full PAS makes me Class 1 legal. Given that my top speed is 20 on the flat, uphill it's a lot slower......


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## f4k3 (Mar 8, 2012)

Class1 cannot exceed 750w therefore peaks above 750w are not accepted, agree?

Here's the EU definition of Pedelec:
European Union directive 2002/24/EC exempts vehicles with the following definition from type approval: "Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h (16 mph) or if the cyclist stops pedaling."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

I see that nothing has changed in this dump. The e-holes still try to turn a blind eye on every thread - to the fact that 3000w e-mtbs already exists, and that they can go 40mph with a push of a button. Just strap one to your Santa Cruz V10, put the battery in your pack... you can still pedal if it makes you feel better, but you don't have to... wink/wink/nod/nod. "But my bike should be allowed, because it only has 750w" Same old, same old.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

f4k3 said:


> Class1 cannot exceed 750w therefore peaks above 750w are not accepted, agree?
> 
> Here's the EU definition of Pedelec:
> European Union directive 2002/24/EC exempts vehicles with the following definition from type approval: "Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h (16 mph) or if the cyclist stops pedaling."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws


"An "electric bicycle" is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts."

Bill Text - AB-1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

The 749W limit is open to interpretation since it is not specified.

I don't trust Wikipedia as their regs are often not up to date if you check, although the EU one still is, that part of it anyway. It did update in January to create a new class for S-pedelcs, I've yet to get my virtual eyes on the actual document though.

New Type-Approval for Speed E-Bikes Now Effective - Bike Europe

I had forgotten that they do refer to max continous power, my bad.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

WE ARE NOT E HOLES and if this forum is a dumb why would you want to be here .


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

d365 said:


> I see that nothing has changed in this dump. The e-holes still try to turn a blind eye on every thread - to the fact that 3000w e-mtbs already exists, and that they can go 40mph with a push of a button. Just strap one to your Santa Cruz V10, put the battery in your pack... you can still pedal if it makes you feel better, but you don't have to... wink/wink/nod/nod. "But my bike should be allowed, because it only has 750w" Same old, same old.


 Wow! Nobody ever mentioned that. Now that you brought it to our attention that changes everything. Maybe we can close this forum and go home: all our problems are solved. Thanks, your unique insight has been a real help.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Not at all, this forum is already serving a valuable purpose in preventing motorized bikes from being allowed on no-motor trails. I can't imagine worse PR for the e-bike industry than some of these threads. In fact, I wonder if that was deliberate on the part of the MTBR higher-ups.

-Walt


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Walt said:


> ...this forum is already serving a valuable purpose in preventing motorized bikes from being allowed on no-motor trails.


I'm pretty sure this forum has zero impact on preventing people from riding ebikes on non-motorized trails. Like this guy poaching the non-motorized Tahoe Rim Trail and posting it on the Internet:






I really want to be offended by it, but from a speed or social/physical impact standpoint, its just another boring helmet cam video.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Oh, poaching will happen for a while. Then the bans will get enforced with some teeth (probably bike confiscation, that's the usual method). Done.

-Walt


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Confiscated by who and where? On trail patrols? Are the patrollers on motos? Who's paying for this vigilance? Will the patrollers hide in the bushes with radar guns to catch speeding ebikes... like they do in Marin County, CA for mountain bikes? Will the patrollers discover that lots of mountain bikers poach some trails too? Will that lead to greater restrictions on mountain biking as a whole? How will the guy using an ebike as a mobility device get back to the trailhead if the patrollers confiscate his ebike? He says he can't walk very well.

Unintended consequences abound...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Around 40 bikes got confiscated in San Diego recently in the Sycamore canyon area because the military folks got tired of poaching: More Than 45 Bikes Confiscated for Riding on Military Land | NBC 7 San Diego.

I remember bikes being confiscated by Vail in 2000, too, after the pirate trails started getting popular after worlds.

Happens all the time. All it takes is a couple of rangers sitting at the trailhead for a few hours. Catch 30 or 40 people and take the bikes, and it has a HUGE deterrent effect.

I bet it *will* cause harm to mountain bike access as a whole, you're totally right on that.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mike V. probably wants to stab a kitten after seeing that video.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Looks like a normal ride neat trail clearly not doing any harm just another rider .


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Looks like a normal ride neat trail clearly not doing any harm just another poacher .


Got that for ya.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Walt said:


> Around 40 bikes got confiscated in San Diego recently in the Sycamore canyon area because the military folks got tired of poaching: More Than 45 Bikes Confiscated for Riding on Military Land | NBC 7 San Diego.
> 
> I remember bikes being confiscated by Vail in 2000, too, after the pirate trails started getting popular after worlds.
> 
> ...


Ah! So the military will patrol trails off their military base? Got it :thumbsup: What military base is in Park City? Has Vail increased their trail ranger program significantly in the past 16 years?

C'mon... be realistic, Walt. I think you'll be hard pressed to find any ranger or land manager that will do anything more than post a regulation that says electric bicycles are prohibited on non-motorized trails.... as they look the other way on this mostly non-issue. If there is a newsworthy and unfortunate accident involving an ebike and someone else somewhere, then I can see a little more "response"... to make the trails "safer".... but that's about it. If mountain bikers demand that law enforcement take care of the ebike problem, the Sierra Club should be writing IMBA fat checks.

*Flucod *- your critique of Mr. Rocks Avoider-Guy-on-an-eMTB accurately describes a huge percentage of mountain bikers, "proving that mountain biking should not be allowed on singletrack ever." Congrats. The Sierra Club will likely comp you a membership if you share that analysis with them.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

WoodlandHills said:


> They are probably too busy volunteering to trail build.........isn't that what every pMTBer does when not working or riding? You have to earn access to the trails somehow, as I've been repeatedly told here, so they probably have a full schedule outside with a shovel. Right?


do you have any friends?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

rider95 said:


> WE ARE NOT E HOLES and if this forum is a dumb why would you want to be here .


You are a huge e-hole


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## Ghost_HTX (Sep 19, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Looks like a normal ride neat trail clearly not doing any harm just another rider .


With the glaring exception that he is;

1. An e-bike rider and legally not supposed to be there.
2. Riding really poorly and inconsiderately (MTBers do this too, I know) - riding around rocks and so on and widening the trail.

So no - not neat at all and a perfect example of the sort of thing that will get MTBs kicked out.

I feel really sorry for MTBers in the USA right now.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I feel really sorry for you west coast riders over were I ride we don't have the problems you guys do , but we don't have the BLM to deal with having ridden out west and seeing all the land you guys have, but you all have so much trail access problems between the different user groups. That your afraid with the added new low power e bikes that will be the straw that broke the camels back and get all mt bikes kicked off the trail .


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Flucod said:


> Ebikes weigh 40-50lbs,* with the lazy people that ride them*, there is no way they could carry that thing over obstacles.


You really think childish insults help make your case?

Should I start characterizing all mtb riders as reckless fools risking their own and others lives to be like their youtube heroes?


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## Ghost_HTX (Sep 19, 2014)

rider95 said:


> I feel really sorry for you west coast riders over were I ride we don't have the problems you guys do , but we don't have the BLM to deal with having ridden out west and seeing all the land you guys have, but you all have so much trail access problems between the different user groups. That your afraid with the added new low power e bikes that will be the straw that broke the camels back and get all mt bikes kicked off the trail .


Oh, Im from back east. Way east. Or really, really far west, depending on which way round you go... I seriously have zero stake here and nothing to lose. Doesn't mean I cant feel bad for the folks who do, though.

Plus I have a knee jerk dislike for the whole "ebikes are just mtbs but better" brigade.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> You really think childish insults help make your case?
> 
> Should I start characterizing all mtb riders as reckless fools risking their own and others lives to be like their youtube heroes?


You've already been doing precisely that for the last few days.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You've already been doing precisely that for the last few days.


Where do I say they are all like that? What I said is some are, and that's the problem for MTB access, not e-bikes


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Empty_Beer said:


> Confiscated by who and where? On trail patrols? Are the patrollers on motos? Who's paying for this vigilance? Will the patrollers hide in the bushes with radar guns to catch speeding ebikes... like they do in Marin County, CA for mountain bikes? Will the patrollers discover that lots of mountain bikers poach some trails too? Will that lead to greater restrictions on mountain biking as a whole? How will the guy using an ebike as a mobility device get back to the trailhead if the patrollers confiscate his ebike? He says he can't walk very well.
> 
> Unintended consequences abound...


So, if they broke something on their bike, they'd magically get back without problems, but now you suddenly worry about them getting their e-"bike" confiscated and the mobility problems that presents?

Seriously?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> So, if they broke something on their bike, they'd magically get back without problems, but now you suddenly worry about them getting their e-"bike" confiscated and the mobility problems that presents?
> 
> Seriously?


I'm just calling BS on confiscation.

PS - there are lots of people riding mountain bikes because their knees or whatnot prohibit(?) them from hiking. They take the risk of a major mechanical every time they ride. Those that ride ebikes take the same risk. Healthy people do too... they could break a leg or something!

*Flucod* - your "LAZY!" ranting is humorous. I'm a hiker and runner. You _lazy_ mountain bikers effortlessly coast downhill while we hikers and runners work hard going up and down!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Here's the Land Manager Survey:

http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/8834549e2b0ec018d0_qum6b48z6.pdf

Interesting read, it jibes with my experience with local land managers.

Impact survey:

http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf


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## roaringfork (Oct 23, 2014)

In my area they are considered motorized and not allowed on mechanized/foot/horse trails. Is that universal?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

roaringfork said:


> In my area they are considered motorized and not allowed on mechanized/foot/horse trails. Is that universal?


 Where? For most of MA it is true.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

roaringfork said:


> In my area they are considered motorized and not allowed on mechanized/foot/horse trails. Is that universal?


It's only universal on USFS and BLM, otherwise, it depends on where you live.


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## roaringfork (Oct 23, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Where? For most of MA it is true.





Harryman said:


> It's only universal on USFS and BLM, otherwise, it depends on where you live.


I'm on the Western Slope of CO. A lot of the riding I do is on BLM and USFS land, so that makes sense.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

roaringfork said:


> I'm on the Western Slope of CO. A lot of the riding I do is on BLM and USFS land, so that makes sense.


AFAIK, there's no legal non motorized singletrack open to ebikes in Colorado.

They are even struggling to get bike path access.

E-bike trend hits roadblock on local trails | GJSentinel.com


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Harryman said:


> AFAIK, there's no legal non motorized singletrack open to ebikes in Colorado.
> 
> They are even struggling to get bike path access.
> 
> E-bike trend hits roadblock on local trails | GJSentinel.com


Just got back from CO rode Cheyenne MT ,capth jacks bunch of others even ran across another e biker out on the trail


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Right, and all those are closed to motor vehicles, which is how Colorado Springs defines ebikes. So, just because you rode them on an ebike doesn't mean it is legal to do so.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

IMO there are three ways that eMTB's threaten all MTB & eMTB access by providing ammunition to opponents:
1) Manufacture an eMTB that is indistinguishable from an MTB.
2) eMTB riders reporting on poaching they have done.
3) Reporting on how they modified production bikes for more speed.
We can't do much about #1 even though we know it's on the way, but can curtail #2 and #3.
PLEASE NOTE (for the geniuses that misconstrue my statements): I'm not advocating poaching and never have (AFAICR); just saying if you do it, keep it to yourself.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I also rode on the sidewalk in old Colorado springs and the bike path to get my weed , dam I am a outlaw .


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Just got back from CO rode Cheyenne MT ,capth jacks bunch of others even ran across another e biker out on the trail


:bluefrown: But then I shouldn't be surprised coming from you.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I enjoyed riding my Levo, but sold it. Too much heat with the ebike scene at the moment. If you ride your ebike illegally, not cool. If you are legal, have at it. I personally hammered on my Levo and the more trail damage is mute. There is very little traction lost breaking and accelerating.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I enjoyed riding my Levo, but sold it. Too much heat with the ebike scene at the moment. If you ride your ebike illegally, not cool. If you are legal, have at it. I personally hammered on my Levo and the more trail damage is mute. There is very little traction lost breaking and accelerating.


Is trail damage still being discussed? It seems that yes, riding further and longer will create more damage over time, but I don't think that will cause problems.

The issue will always be trail speed. eBike or Pedal Bike.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, we've knocked down the trail-damage strawman lots of times. More mileage will have more impact but nobody is really worried about roosting e-bikes. 

It's the extra speed that is concerning.

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walt have you ever rode a trail that had a big wooden built banked turn? forcing you to ride fast? How fast do you think a e bike goes?? .


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sorry, I don't understand your question. I ride lots of trails with wooden features, which are universally directional DH trails. I have no problem with anyone riding basically anything they want on a trail like that.

-Walt


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I have seen a total of (4) e-bikes on dirt trails so far. All of them at the same riding area, the San Juan Trail, which is USFS land and therefore illegal to ride e-bikes there. I have seen 100+ other e-bikes being ridden on the streets locally here along the coast in SoCal. Most that I have seen actually appear to be commuting to work based on the way they are dressed. The others, maybe 10% of tech e-biek riders I've seen on the street, are older folks who have no clue what they are doing and will probably end up hurting themselves or others. E-bikes have enabled them to get outside and ride which would be a good thing for sure...if they weren't all over the place, making u-turns on the trail in front of oncoming traffic and frequently stopping where they shouldn't. Kind of like knuckle dragger snowboarders of which I am one but learned to ski first so I'm smart enough to know where to stop on a trail.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Here's the Land Manager Survey:
> 
> http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/8834549e2b0ec018d0_qum6b48z6.pdf
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff.

And thanks for not misusing 'jive' in place of 'jibe'. 
I had almost much given up hope of seeing anyone get that right again in my lifetime.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

SHM, good to see you "jive" talking again even if our opinions don't always "jibe".


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## michaeldorian (Nov 17, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I enjoyed riding my Levo, but sold it. Too much heat with the ebike scene at the moment. If you ride your ebike illegally, not cool. If you are legal, have at it. I personally hammered on my Levo and the more trail damage is mute. There is very little traction lost breaking and accelerating.


So much heat! Sucks that it pushed you to sell it. Us humans sure love to hate on things thats new and different. I love my LEVO, but seriously feel the heat you mentioned just standing next to it but bringing it into a bike shop.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

michaeldorian said:


> So much heat! Sucks that it pushed you to sell it. Us humans sure love to hate on things thats new and different. I love my LEVO, but seriously feel the heat you mentioned just standing next to it but bringing it into a bike shop.


Yeah, it's not a biggie. I bought another new mtb so alls good. When things get definitive, I'll definitely purchase another. I see both sides of the argument and am being "neutral" for a while. I would never want to piss off fellow mtbrs.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I find it amusing that a impact study is done on how e banks could effect trails I would like to see a study , on how a 7ft wooden jump or a 10ft tall 100ft long high banked wooden turn effects our trail . Since speed is often used angst e bikes but reg mt bikers go blasting by off the 7 ft, jump caring enough speed to ride the high bank wooden turn built in a public park . What do you think the hiker walking his dog thinks ? and you think a 60y old dude riding a 750w e bike is some how going to more damage ??


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> I find it amusing that a impact study is done on how e banks could effect trails I would like to see a study , on how a 7ft wooden jump or a 10ft tall 100ft long high banked wooden turn effects our trail . Since speed is often used angst e bikes but reg mt bikers go blasting by off the 7 ft, jump caring enough speed to ride the high bank wooden turn built in a public park . What do you think the hiker walking his dog thinks ? and you think a 60y old dude riding a 750w e bike is some how going to more damage ??


Check Walt's post (#77)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> SHM, good to see you "jive" talking again even if our opinions don't always "jibe".


 Right back at ya!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Hikers are not allowed on trails with 7' jumps and giant wooden bermed turns, as far as I've ever seen. Our DH/FR trails here have big skull and crossbone signs on them at the bottom saying "no uphill traffic" and also signs at the top indicating no hiking.

What on earth are you talking about?

-Walt


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Walt said:


> which are universally directional DH trails. I have no problem with anyone riding basically anything they want on a trail like that.
> 
> -Walt


IMO, this is the way forward. Assessing trails to determine whether or not they are conducive to safe and responsible eMTB use, and then properly designating "eMTB-friendly" or "not-eMTB-friendly." I do also think that the onus is on those wishing to sell or ride eMTBs to initiate this process with local land managers. It won't be an easy or quick process, but neither has gaining trail access for mountain bikes in general.

I don't think we can realistically "stop" eMTBs from propagating here, but I think we can move past that idea and work on mitigating their high potential for causing user conflict. We do this through education and honest discussion. We absolutely should not allow eMTBs to be treated as regular mountain bikes, nor should we treat them like dirt bikes. They are somewhere in between. But if we, as mountain bikers, continue to dismiss them as motorcycles and pretend they will go away if we just boycott companies or bicycle retailers that sell them, then this reasonable approach will be hindered. Instead of consumers and retailers getting educated on responsible eMTB use, there will only be uneducated eMTB riders wreaking havoc due to the inevitable proliferation of these e-bike-specific shops who don't have a stake in trail access and won't care enough to educate the people they are selling these machines to.

As Walt said, I don't see any issue in allowing eMTBs on unidirectional trails that are not shared with hikers or equestrians. But if we allow them on trails that don't meet at least those criteria, user conflict and injury potential will escalate.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

So, regarding the speed, are we talking about the speed of e-bikes climbing up hill that causes conflict? I'm honestly trying to understand. Having ridden an e-bike just last weekend, I'm having a hard time understanding how my uphill speed could have been a problem, particularly as skinny guys on non-e-bikes were passing me up hill. 

Maybe I was riding too slow? Maybe it's the nature of a lot of the mountain biking here in SoCal (long climbing straight up, followed by generally uninterrupted downhill runs)? I've ridden in Georgia and North Carolina, and the trails are definitely different there. Is that the reason?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The problem, as we've said many times, is not slow people who want to work less hard. The problem is fast people who want more power to go faster. Right now there are not many of them riding (or modifying/riding) e-bikes but it's on the way. I can hit the 18mph limiter going uphill on the LEVO without even going to turbo mode, and if it was delimited I could probably sustain 20mph or higher *up* many singletrack trails. 

The old/slow folks who want to get out and enjoy nature are never going to be a problem. 

-Walt


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I wish we could have an ebike thread that didn't disolve into an argument. It's really sad that people care so much about what ifs, when what ares cause more problems. Our trails are trashed by motos and horses... ain't seen an e-bike other than my wife's anywhere I ride (WA, OR, UT, ID, MT).

My wife's new FSR Comp is beautiful, we're going riding in the morning, she's so excited. She's never been excited about riding until she got an ebike. This ebike is worth it's weight in gold to me.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

NB, on the other hand there are only a handful of opponents here. Some like SHM, are extremely reasonable and only request that we admit e-bikes are different than MTB's and that e-MTB's be accepted on their own merits. Who could argue with those concepts? The great thing is that, for the most part, the opponents that you "meet" here aren't what you'll encounter on the trail. The sad thing is the opponents poison almost every thread.


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

I understand what you are saying Nurse Ben. I'm in my late 30's now and when I was a kid we worked with USFS, BLM, and state of Montana to create trails for motorcycles in the mountains. We paid dues to the club, purchased materials to assemble water bars for water runoff and we put in many hard days with chainsaws, shovels, and rakes. We had several good years of trail riding that will be forever cherished. We thought we were being good neighbors by allowing horses and hikers even though they put zero dollars or effort into the construction of these trails. Horses can be the most devastating thing I've ever seen to trails. The USFS also leased many of these areas to cattle owners allowing thousands of cows to stampede down trails when they were wet and destroy weeks of hard work in minutes. After a couple years the hikers complained enough about motorcycles that we would ultimately be kicked off the trail system we created. 

I want everybody to pay attention to this next statement and understand it clearly. Ebikes and even motos do not cause that many problems for trails. As someone who spent years of my life planning, building, and maintaining trails I can tell you the single worst thing for a trail by far is anyone or anything traveling on it in wet conditions. That simple. People who say ebikes ruin trails aren't even worth arguing with because they clearly have no logic in them.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Agreed, trail damage is a non-issue. Can we stop talking about that? Nobody thinks it's a problem, regardless of your stance on e-bikes in general.

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Cody01 said:


> After a couple years the hikers complained enough about motorcycles that we would ultimately be kicked off the trail system we created.


This is the exact concern (and why I no longer own any motos - nowhere to ride). Speed differential kills access.

-Walt


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

I see a huge problem currently in my area with SXS UTVs. Guys are running down old logging roads at mind boggling speeds with turbocharged machines that have 24" of suspension. A something called blind corners is going to start getting people killed. Two of them coming at each other around a corner will result in a head on or one turning off the cliff.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The side by sides are death traps, of course. But ******** have been killing themselves with various ATV type vehicles for the last 40 years, so it's not a new situation. Most moto areas you know what you're getting into and can take appropriate precautions. 

There's are good reasons people (both hikers and mountain bikers) hate motors on trails.

-Walt


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Walt, why add to the negative discourse, it's clearly not doing anything to bring us together. 

If every person reading this thread were to post something positive in this thread or not post if they can't be positive, this thread could have added something to the discourse.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I said several positive things earlier, actually. I can envision a future where e-bikes are basically just used by disabled/less fit folks to enjoy the outdoors and that's it. They would fit in anywhere a mountain bike would. Win/win. 

Of course, when we start seeing the 750W/20mph (or delimited) bikes in greater numbers, that might just kill it. Which is why I've kept asking why on earth the industry didn't adopt the EU 15/250 limits. 

-Walt


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Nurse Ben said:


> Walt, why add to the negative discourse, it's clearly not doing anything to bring us together.


Why would the majority of mountain bikers want to be associated and "together" with e-bikes?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why would the majority of mountain bikers want to be associated and "together" with e-bikes?


Mountain bikers and ebike riders are the same people. Do you think joe blow just gets into the sport because he has an ebike and shreds Singletrack with no prior bike history / skills?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Walt said:


> I said several positive things earlier, actually. I can envision a future where e-bikes are basically just used by disabled/less fit folks to enjoy the outdoors and that's it. They would fit in anywhere a mountain bike would. Win/win.
> 
> Of course, when we start seeing the 750W/20mph (or delimited) bikes in greater numbers, that might just kill it. Which is why I've kept asking why on earth the industry didn't adopt the EU 15/250 limits.
> 
> -Walt


Positive vibes.

Repeat after me: "It will be okay", then we take a collective deep breath and begin singing... kumbayah


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why would the majority of mountain bikers want to be associated and "together" with e-bikes?


Because we all share a love riding trails and there are are more opportunitues created out of happiness than out of anger.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Mountain bikers and ebike riders are the same people. Do you think joe blow just gets into the sport because he has an ebike and shreds Singletrack with no prior bike history / skills?


Yes, that is what I think. I have seen it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Walt, why add to the negative discourse, it's clearly not doing anything to bring us together.
> 
> If every person reading this thread were to post something positive in this thread or not post if they can't be positive, this thread could have added something to the discourse.


Just because you do not agree with his stance does not make his comments negative.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> NB, on the other hand there are only a handful of opponents here. *Some* like SHM, are extremely reasonable and only request that we admit e-bikes are different than MTB's and that e-MTB's be accepted on their own merits.


I think you could replace "some" with "most".


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Yes, that is what I think. I have seen it.


Of course you have, but it won't be the majority of buyers. Not even close. Just my opinion.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Mountain bikers and ebike riders are the same people. Do you think joe blow just gets into the sport because he has an ebike and shreds Singletrack with no prior bike history / skills?


I said the majority of mountain bikers, meaning those that don't ride e-bikes and want to maintain trail access. I think many e-bikers are ex-mountain bikers that have difficulty riding without assist for a variety of reasons, and I respect and support that. However, that doesn't change the negative impact an increased in the popularity of e-bikes will have on other mountain bikers. I did not intend to start another argument, but saying all mountain bikers and e-bikers should just get along is naive and dangerous for mountain bikers.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Of course you have, but it won't be the majority of buyers. Not even close. Just my opinion.


The future will be the judge of that, you and I can only guess. My guess is that 5-10 years from now the majority of electric bike purchasers will be mountain bike virgins.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I said the majority of mountain bikers, meaning those that don't ride e-bikes and want to maintain trail access. I think many e-bikers are ex-mountain bikers that have difficulty riding without assist for a variety of reasons, and I respect and support that. However, that doesn't change the negative impact an increased in the popularity of e-bikes will have on other mountain bikers. I did not intend to start another argument, but saying all mountain bikers and e-bikers should just get along is naive and dangerous for mountain bikers.


Trail access and respect for someone on 2 wheels can be different. I'm not a snob and will waive to anyone on two wheels. The reality is that we all share a form of the same thrill. I am a mtbr and have been for a long time. Heck, just bought a new Niner. I'm not trying to argue either. If a ebike rider is riding legally than fantastic, I'll ride with them.

1st. my suggestion would be to enforce and post speed limits in areas of congested Singletrack. This would be good for ALL riders. Trail damage is not an issue.

2nd. Every mtb or ebike purchased, a portion goes to your local chapter.

Remember, you can only ride one bike at a time, therefore will there really be more riders on trails?
Also, manufactures should stamp 250w on the frame and that should be Trail max.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> The future will be the judge of that, you and I can only guess. My guess is that 5-10 years from now the majority of electric bike purchasers will be mountain bike virgins.


True that. We share opposite opinions, but I still have respect for you as a cyclist.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Remember, you can only ride one bike at a time, therefore will there really be more riders on trails?


I think you should at least entertain the idea that many future e-bike purchasers might never even consider buying a mountain bike. It doesn't seem far fetched at all to me because the suffering aspect of the sport is in large part responsible for keeping mountain biking somewhat off the beaten track (literally) thus far.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think you should at least entertain the idea that many future e-bike purchasers might never even consider buying a mountain bike. It doesn't seem far fetched at all to me because the suffering aspect of the sport is in large part responsible for keeping mountain biking somewhat off the beaten track (literally) thus far.


Ah yes the pain cave.. no doubt there will be many that go straight to the ebike. Why not? Being outdoors, getting exercise etc. Maybe it will help with our obese society? Who knows. I for one am an advocate of both, ridden legally and respectfully.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> Just because you do not agree with his stance does not make his comments negative.


I never said what I believe or whether I agree with Walt. In fact, I agree with every comment made in this thread; except for the personal attacks.

I'm of the mind that by getting too far ahead of reality, we are creating a divide that is not necessary.

There is more to be gained by working together than by alienating each other.

Walt is a moderator, his bar is higher, which is why I suggested he lead the change.

If every thread becomes a battle, how does the forum create positive change? At this point the ebike forum is worsening divisions and creating an environment of hate.

Each member has a responsibility to exhibit self control.

Only you can prevent forest fires.


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## apuking (Mar 3, 2015)

Im from Germany and we have had E-MTB´s for a few years here riding on our trails.
2.5% of all bikes sold in Germany are now E-MTB´s compared to 10% being MTB´s (Info from ZIV Market report).
From own observation more than half of the E-MTB´s are just used for commuting and leisure riding. The small amount of riders who actually use E-MTB´s are experienced Mountainbikers who just want to ride more trails and more distance. These riders follow trail etiquette and do not damage the trails any more than a regular MTB.
E-MTB´s are faster on the uphill but for downhill I would say a normal MTB is a tiny bit faster. I have ridden E-MTB´s with weights of less than 15kg so high-end models are not heavier than the regular Aluminum MTB we see on trails.
In Germany throttles are only allowed for S-Pedelecs, these have a license plate and are not allowed on trails. A normal E-MTB is pedal assist only with max 250W and 25 KPH


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

It is funny. I just recently had my hairdresser ask me, why I had an eBike. When given my reasons for it, she'd stay adamant on how all eBiking is the devil and so on ... without any tolerable reason for it.

Many like her are just haters. They can't deal with the fact that someone might have had it easier than them uphill and especially not have an additional amount of people on "their" trail. They'll happily call any hiker, who's hating MTBs in general on "his" trail an "intolerant arse", but have no issues behaving the same towards eBikers.

In reality on my trails, I have little issues. If you're a generally friendly biker, not rushing past hikers or horses etc, but politely braking to walk speeds etc, I might get a few odd looks and the occasional dumb comment from a biobiker/jogger, but otherwise, things are fairly smooth. So far.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

apuking said:


> Im from Germany and we have had E-MTB´s for a few years here riding on our trails.
> 2.5% of all bikes sold in Germany are now E-MTB´s compared to 10% being MTB´s (Info from ZIV Market report).
> From own observation more than half of the E-MTB´s are just used for commuting and leisure riding. The small amount of riders who actually use E-MTB´s are experienced Mountainbikers who just want to ride more trails and more distance. These riders follow trail etiquette and do not damage the trails any more than a regular MTB.
> E-MTB´s are faster on the uphill but for downhill I would say a normal MTB is a tiny bit faster. I have ridden E-MTB´s with weights of less than 15kg so high-end models are not heavier than the regular Aluminum MTB we see on trails.
> In Germany throttles are only allowed for S-Pedelecs, these have a license plate and are not allowed on trails. A normal E-MTB is pedal assist only with max 250W and 25 KPH


Amen brother. If I lived in Germany, I'd still have my Levo. When adaptation happens here, I'll buy another. I wish we had your identical laws in place for all ebikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

voon said:


> It is funny. I just recently had my hairdresser ask me, why I had an eBike. When given my reasons for it, she'd stay adamant on how all eBiking is the devil and so on ... without any tolerable reason for it.
> 
> Many like her are just haters. They can't deal with the fact that someone might have had it easier than them uphill and especially not have an additional amount of people on "their" trail. They'll happily call any hiker, who's hating MTBs in general on "his" trail an "intolerant arse", but have no issues behaving the same towards eBikers.
> 
> In reality on my trails, I have little issues. If you're a generally friendly biker, not rushing past hikers or horses etc, but politely braking to walk speeds etc, I might get a few odd looks and the occasional dumb comment from a biobiker/jogger, but otherwise, things are fairly smooth. So far.


Hey, I'm assuming you've been a mtbr for a while correct? I'm glad your enjoying the outdoors.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Trail access and respect for someone on 2 wheels can be different. I'm not a snob and will waive to anyone on two wheels. The reality is that we all share a form of the same thrill. I am a mtbr and have been for a long time. Heck, just bought a new Niner. I'm not trying to argue either. If a ebike rider is riding legally than fantastic, I'll ride with them.
> 
> 1st. my suggestion would be to enforce and post speed limits in areas of congested Singletrack. This would be good for ALL riders. Trail damage is not an issue.
> 
> ...


None of what you said applies to my post. I'm not going to get into the same arguments that have been posted numerous times, even though they are clearly being ignored by the pro e-bike crowd. I'm saying grouping e-bikes and mountain bikes together in any capacity is bad news for mountain bike trail access. If you really can't or won't understand the reasons for that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

That said, I will continue to fight against calling e-bikes "mountain bikes" in every thread I take the time to read. Also, call it snobbery, entitlement, or whatever else you want, but why slow mountain bikers down on the downhills just so other people can go faster on the uphills? Why would the vast majority of mountain bikers accept that? If you're disabled and just can't find a different activity to do, then I'm sure there are ways to go about riding on trails through the woods. E-bikers are facing an uphill battle in trail access in the United States, and don't expect mountain bikers to readily give up their hard-earned access.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm done answering or even trying to respond to your posts, as you should be done posting here.

Please tell me your trail solutions or your riding experience on an ebike, wait.. don't have any? Hmmm


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm of the mind that by getting too far ahead of reality, we are creating a divide that is not necessary.


I think it's the opposite, the divide exists only because of the apparent attempt to homogenize bicycles with e-bikes in legal terms. Personally I would be much more open to allowing them trail access if there were a clear legal divide between the two so if any problems did happen to arise in the future one user group could be removed without affecting the other. Also trails could be evaluated on an individual basis. If that were the case I (and probably several others) would not be involved in these threads.



voon said:


> It is funny...........


Your hairdresser? Really?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think it's the opposite, the divide exists only because of the apparent attempt to homogenize bicycles with e-bikes in legal terms. Personally I would be much more open to allowing them trail access if there were a clear legal divide between the two so if any problems did happen to arise in the future one user group could be removed without affecting the other. Also trails could be evaluated on an individual basis. If that were the case I (and probably several others) would not be involved in these threads.


That simple paragraph sums it up pretty well IMO.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> I'm done answering or even trying to respond to your posts, as you should be done posting here.
> 
> Please tell me your trail solutions or your riding experience on an ebike, wait.. don't have any? Hmmm


I don't think you've actually replied to any words I've posted, but thank you for skirting the real issues once again. This is a mountain bike website, and I will continue to provide my opinion just like you provide yours.

My trail solution is to define e-bikes on their own merit rather than classify them as mointain bikes. I have ridden an e-bike, and it was more like a moped than a bicycle. Granted, it did have a throttle, but where is the distiction between electric and electric-assist? Oh wait... You thought I didn't have any experience.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

JACKL said:


> That simple paragraph sums it up pretty well IMO.


Agreed.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I don't think you've actually replied to any words I've posted, but thank you for skirting the real issues once again. This is a mountain bike website, and I will continue to provide my opinion just like you provide yours.
> 
> My trail solution is to define e-bikes on their own merit rather than classify them as mointain bikes. I have ridden an e-bike, and it was more like a moped than a bicycle. Granted, it did have a throttle, but where is the distiction between electric and electric-assist? Oh wait... You thought I didn't have any experience.


And you don't have any experience. Your clueless arguments without facts only upset, wait for it... fellow MTBR's. Yes it's true, can you comprehend that some mtbrs also ride ebikes?
Anyrate, I've claimed they are a different discipline. Your going to have a mental breakdown when they are EVERYWHERE!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Agreed.


Hey, I also agree - Holy----!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think it's the opposite, the divide exists only because of the apparent attempt to homogenize bicycles with e-bikes in legal terms. Personally I would be much more open to allowing them trail access if there were a clear legal divide between the two so if any problems did happen to arise in the future one user group could be removed without affecting the other. Also trails could be evaluated on an individual basis. If that were the case I (and probably several others) would not be involved in these threads.


100% with this.

Try to force e-bikes down everyone's throats as mountain bikes, and I don't want to see them anywhere. Accept that they are a new and separate user group and go from there, I have no problem with them at all. Pretty simple really.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Well said


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Gutch said:


> Hey, I'm assuming you've been a mtbr for a while correct? I'm glad your enjoying the outdoors.


Mostly, yes ... used to be a Biobiker (btw, this is NOT a term meant to be derogative .. it's merely used to make a distinction between those riding with battery or without, sorry if this has been seen as soemthing negative ... I biobike myself occasionally). Nowadays an eBiker. Not sure why this was worth a negative reputation attack, tho.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your hairdresser? Really?


Well not everyone speaks native english ... haircutter? Whoever cuts my hair.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Walt is a moderator, his bar is higher, which is why I suggested he lead the change.


Walt has no moderating privileges in the eBike forum. He is a member of this site who also volunteers to moderate some forums. There is absolutely no reason why he should not be allowed to participate in the discussions about eBikes. As for personal attacks, please report them using the report button on a specific post so the Moderator who does volunteer his time to moderate this forum can address them.

As most of you know, trail access has been a MAJOR issue for Mountain Bikes since their inception, People who have been part of those uphill battles are quick to point out to others when they are doing something that has the potential to push access backwards in a major way. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

voon said:


> Mostly, yes ... used to be a Biobiker (btw, this is NOT a term meant to be derogative .. it's merely used to make a distinction between those riding with battery or without, sorry if this has been seen as soemthing negative ... I biobike myself occasionally). Nowadays an eBiker. Not sure why this was worth a negative reputation attack, tho.


I wouldn't give you negative rep. I don't care what you ride, as long as you have "biker" after! I'm glad you're enjoying yourself


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

voon said:


> Well not everyone speaks native english ... haircutter? Whoever cuts my hair.


 You can check your rep, and who gave you what in your profile page.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

voon said:


> Biobiker


As an aside, there's no need for anyone anywhere to ever add any sort of goofy prefixes when referring to actual mountain bikes, or bicycles in general. Everyone knows what a bicycle is; no need to come up with a bunch of silly new names for something that's already a given. Just call your e-bike what it is: an e-bike. No one will be confused. "P-bike'....'Biobike'...it all sounds ridiculous and is totally unnecessary.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Mountain bikers and ebike riders are the same people. Do you think joe blow just gets into the sport because he has an ebike and shreds Singletrack with no prior bike history / skills?


 Yup.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I never said what I believe or whether I agree with Walt. In fact, I agree with every comment made in this thread; except for the personal attacks.
> 
> I'm of the mind that by getting too far ahead of reality, we are creating a divide that is not necessary.
> 
> ...


 I don't see any positives from e bikes. At least off road. I don't hate e bikes, they are just not allowed for the most part in MA. And folks thinking they are a bike is not a positive either for me. Working together? Do you work with motorcycle or ORV groups? Maybe you do, not my experience though. Positive change? Like what? Motorized vehicles on a human powered trail? The divide is already there. Pretending it doesn't exist is the issue. My get some better reception on a e bikes site not on a mountain biking site. Just a thought.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

How's an eMTbike not a bike?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Yup.


Cool, another person off the couch!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

voon said:


> How's an eMTbike not a bike?


 Bikes don't have motors. It is something else.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Hmmm .. let me see ...









Diamondframe .. check
Knobbly wheels .. check
Suspension fork .. check
Rear damper .. check
Pedals .. check
Disc brakes .. check
Saddle .. check
Chain & gears .. check
Handlebar .. check

Some extra shape from battery & motor

Hmm.

You're right. I didn't see it before, but this is definitly a microwave, not a bike.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

voon said:


> Hmmm .. let me see ...
> 
> View attachment 1106567
> 
> ...


MOTOR .. check

All of the attributes of a motorcycle.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Yeah. That's why I see all the Kawasaki owners pedal madly on the motorways. Definitly a motorcycle... I'm too scared to visit the woods and trails nowadays, with all those eBikers going at 100 mph uphill.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

voon said:


> Yeah. That's why I see all the Kawasaki owners pedal madly on the motorways. Definitly a motorcycle... I'm too scared to visit the woods and trails nowadays, with all those eBikers going at 100 mph uphill.


Yawn....


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It's not a real motorcycle, but it's also by no means a real bicycle.

It's amazing to me that anyone would have a problem seeing the distinctions.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

We are in the "E-bike forum" Let's leave it at that and move on. I wonder if the skateboarders get bent over assisted skateboards?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think it's the opposite, the divide exists only because of the apparent attempt to homogenize bicycles with e-bikes in legal terms. Personally I would be much more open to allowing them trail access if there were a clear legal divide between the two so if any problems did happen to arise in the future one user group could be removed without affecting the other. Also trails could be evaluated on an individual basis. If that were the case I (and probably several others) would not be involved in these threads.


Well put.

If ebikes were judged on their merits, and not lumped in with mtbs, I'd happily welcome them where land managers have decided they belong. I've got no personal bias against them. It would also be better for both the industry and the ebike community in the long term. While ebikes currently share many similarities with bikes, they will continue to diverge as technology advances and the legislation becomes more uniform. To have honest discussions evealuating the impacts as they are felt as the market matures is the best way forward.

Interestingly, Peopleforbikes, an industry lobbying group who is pushing their model legislation forward, state it intends to include text to specifically omit mtb trails, yet hasn't in CA, UT and TN where it has managed to get it passed. Leaving it vague has allowed the the law to be interpreted as ebikes anywhere bikes can go instead of it only being relevant to bike paths and lanes.



> Section 207 - path use by class 1 and 2 electric bicycles:
> A class 1 electric bicycle or a class 2 electric bicycle may be used in all places where bicycles are permitted to travel, including, but not limited to bicycle and multi-use paths and trails [use appropriate state specific language to describe paved bike infrastructure; omit trails where they can be interpreted as trails open to mountain bikers]. However, the municipality, local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a path or trail may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 electric bicycle or class 2 electric bicycle on that bicycle path or trail.


http://www.peopleforbikes.org/page/-/Model eBike Legislation.pdf

Maybe the industry intended for emtb access to be left up to local land managers in the first place?


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## Jefflinde (Mar 26, 2015)

voon said:


> Yeah. That's why I see all the Kawasaki owners pedal madly on the motorways. Definitly a motorcycle... I'm too scared to visit the woods and trails nowadays, with all those eBikers going at 100 mph uphill.


So i can put some pedals on this guy and your cool with me at your local trail? cause this is what the e-bike industry will become in 5 years. everything is a race to be the biggest, fastest most powerful on the block. To put it another way. how much faster was the model T than a horse drawn carriage? how long before there was a race to see who could go the fastest and who had the most HP?


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

The only difference between a PA bike is that the force to the chain is not a 100% coming from thigh muscle. It doesn't drive on its own and doesn't have a throttle. It is no motorcycle. The force is substantial, but not even remotly in the range of motorcycles. And if you want to do a longer tour, you'll have to manage assist or your battery will be drained pretty fast. eMTBers I know rarely carry an extra battery. But I live in Switzerland with tight regulation on 25kmh assist bikes. No idea what crazy machines some people in Trumpistan whip across trails. 

Oh and if you want, the weight of a DH bike. 

But creating drawers, elitism, separation is nothing new. Present in so many car fora, where people think their heap of metal and plastics is making them important, cause someone glued BMW on it.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Jefflinde said:


> So i can put some pedals on this guy and your cool with me at your local trail? cause this is what the e-bike industry will become in 5 years. everything is a race to be the biggest, fastest most powerful on the block. To put it another way. how much faster was the model T than a horse drawn carriage? how long before there was a race to see who could go the fastest and who had the most HP?


Uh, first this thing makes noise, a lot... Your forest rangers wont like that around here. Second it drives on its own and is not pedal assisted. Third it has WAY, WAY more power than a regulated 25kmh pedelec. Four, it's gasoline tank will las way, way further at that power. Five, it is way bigger than a bike.

This is not even remotly going to be allowed on a swiss trail. Not sure where you live, but the comparison is ridiculous. Please stop.


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## Jefflinde (Mar 26, 2015)

voon said:


> Uh, first this thing makes noise, a lot... Your forest rangers wont like that around here. Second it drives on its own and is not pedal assisted. Third it has WAY, WAY more power than a regulated 25kmh pedelec. Four, it's gasoline tank will las way, way further at that power. Five, it is way bigger than a bike.
> 
> This is not even remotly going to be allowed on a swiss trail. Not sure where you live, but the comparison is ridiculous. Please stop.


So i live in the US and most of the issues people have is that in the US there are no restrictions pretty sure that has been covered a bunch in this thread. you also point that you live in Switzerland "with heavy restriction" that again, the US does not have. Also the pic i posted is of a Zero FX. 100% electric and by the standards of the pro e-bike crowd on this forum, all it would need is some pedals and then it is a bicycle with an electric motor. so it would be legal in the US since we "have no restrictions"!


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Well I can agree with you that I would not want to see bikes exceeding the fairly docile pedal assist 25kmh ebikes on trails. The 25s are still the "normal" bike experience around here for most people, including hikers etc. They're not confronted with more noise or more bulk etc, only more people on bikes. We have, as in Germany, a second class of 45kmh bikes, which still look like normal bikes, which are not allowed on trails and require both a license plate and a mirror plus insurance. They are thus treated as small motorcycles despite the pedal assist. They're not allowed to run by throttle. 

The situation you have is indeed different if real motorcycles with just a swapped engine power source can fly across trail. That's just electrical motocross then, which doesn't even have a remote chance here. Swiss laws are strict and breaking it will hurt a lot. Also, hikers opposition is very strong. Waterfalls will flow upwards here before such a strong real motorbike is allowed on a trail.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Really bud? C'mon.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Switzerland is tiny. We have to watch each others toes. The US is full of vast wilderness... Should be possible to get along? I can understand and accept the people, that seek silence and nature on trails. People are stressed often. However, the biker and 25kmh ebiker will present exactly the same disturbance to them. A large motorbike is not, besides the power being a real danger to say a tourist hiker in the alps. I get that. But haters, that just hate me on my fairly ordinary 25er ebike? That makes me sad... We're the same crowd with the same clothes and components (small assistmotor excepted),jist having it a bit easier.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

voon said:


> Mostly, yes ... used to be a Biobiker (btw, this is NOT a term meant to be derogative .. it's merely used to make a distinction between those riding with battery or without, sorry if this has been seen as soemthing negative ... I biobike myself occasionally). Nowadays an eBiker. Not sure why this was worth a negative reputation attack, tho.


Sorry, not interested in adopting this term. Don't want to see the nifty MTBR logo changed. Also, it sounds like someone who takes a dump on the trail halfway through their ride.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

voon said:


> The only difference between a PA bike is that the force to the chain is not a 100% coming from thigh muscle. It doesn't drive on its own and doesn't have a throttle. It is no motorcycle. The force is substantial, but not even remotly in the range of motorcycles. And if you want to do a longer tour, you'll have to manage assist or your battery will be drained pretty fast. eMTBers I know rarely carry an extra battery. But I live in Switzerland with tight regulation on 25kmh assist bikes. No idea what crazy machines some people in Trumpistan whip across trails.
> 
> Oh and if you want, the weight of a DH bike.
> 
> But creating drawers, elitism, separation is nothing new. Present in so many car fora, where people think their heap of metal and plastics is making them important, cause someone glued BMW on it.


The regulations here are quite different with Pedelecs allowed to have 750w/32kph and throttles. There is another class which is 750w/45kph but only for the road and bike lanes. Kit bikes are unregulated and there is no enforcement or penalties for any of it at this point.

Different political climate as well. No one will really care in places where there aren't a lot of users, but in more crowed areas, there are concerns.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

voon,

You need to visit New Jersey


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> voon,
> 
> You need to visit New Jersey


 Or most of the East coast. And west coast.


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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

Got a question for you Voon, since your country has @ a2yr jump on the U.S. in the introduction of ebikes maybe you are aware of some insight to the question of people modifying or hacking their bike to make it faster than it's supposed to be. I've seen this argument used here but have a hard time imagining that it will be a real problem. Any thoughts from Switzerland? If it was going to happen you would think your lower power regs would be a more likely candidate. Than again we would be talking about the U.S. vs Swiss likelihood of a person who would want to modify their Bike in this way. Starting to get over my head.......


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

modifying ebikes over the power threshold falls under the incidence of driving a motor vehicle without locence/registration, which is usually a pretty serious offence in most european jurisdictions, and i would imagine in the US as well. if you see them report them. pretty easy to spot, homebrewed controllers and batteries are poorly integrated into the design of the bike and look pretty much slapped on.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I haven't heard of anyone modifying an off the shelf pedelec for more power, but people do derestrict them to raise the speed limit where the motor kicks out, typically doubling it. I've got no clue how common it is and obviously, you could never tell by looking at the bike, sometimes it's a dongle added internally, sometimes just a software change.

This is a UK forum where you can see the topic comes up fairly regularly. 
Speed Pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs & overseas | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

The wattage limits are higher in Switzerland at 500w for pedelcs and 1000w for S pedelecs, although there are few emtbs for sale with greater than 250-350w to take advantage of it. The higher wattage bikes are commuters.

As Syl3 said, there's more regulation and penalties in the EU for out of compliance ebikes than there are here.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I DON"T MODIFY AND DON"T ADVOCATE MODIFYING (for the two geniuses who misconstrue my posts and send me hate mail), but the US is much more than two years behind the EU in regulation AFAICT. One would need to be traveling along at 35+ mph to be noticed IMO. The high power guys probably have DIY kits although I'm not positive about that since I've never seen one.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Dude this is the USA we "mod" everything...
...we have no limits!


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hate mail? Lol. Scream hate at everything that disagrees with you.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Yes, that is what I think. I have seen it.


 most of us have years of two wheel off rd experience just read the post , and none of us would want to damage or harm our trails . And the e bikes are not doing any more harm then a peddle bike , the e bikers who buys one of the new Levos or other hi end e biker are a mature veteran rider often with decades of riding behind them . Not the hooligan hill shooting get out of my way sitting fast time I am a MT bike god get off MY trail riders .


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^true that!


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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

rider95 said:


> most of us have years of two wheel off rd experience just read the post , and none of us would want to damage or harm our trails . And the e bikes are not doing any more harm then a peddle bike , the e bikers who buys one of the new Levos or other hi end e biker are a mature veteran rider often with decades of riding behind them . Not the hooligan hill shooting get out of my way sitting fast time I am a MT bike god get off MY trail riders .


I'm just trying to understand the argument against ebikes on the same trails as regular mtb bikes. I think it is generally accepted that they don't really degrade a trail any more than a pedal bike but that the easier speed that more people will be able to ride at will be the undoing of mountain bikes on shared use trails. Speed that can be attained on a pedal mtb seems to be viewed differently than speed on an ebike. Ebike riders are perceived to be less experienced? thus flooding the trails with out of control newbs endangering everyone. Or Hooligan hill shooters on modded bikes uncaring but for themselves? I guess the fear of losing trail access can create all kinds of scenarios in peoples minds. It's looking like they won't be accepted on regular trails together with pedal mtbs'. Maybe like snowboarding they will be eventually be brought into the mix.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Hey, if they're legal, they're legal. Meaning riding on approved trails.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TuTone T said:


> I'm just trying to understand the argument against ebikes on the same trails as regular mtb bikes. I think it is generally accepted that they don't really degrade a trail any more than a pedal bike but that the easier speed that more people will be able to ride at will be the undoing of mountain bikes on shared use trails. Speed that can be attained on a pedal mtb seems to be viewed differently than speed on an ebike. Ebike riders are perceived to be less experienced? thus flooding the trails with out of control newbs endangering everyone. Or Hooligan hill shooters on modded bikes uncaring but for themselves? I guess the fear of losing trail access can create all kinds of scenarios in peoples minds. It's looking like they won't be accepted on regular trails together with pedal mtbs'. Maybe like snowboarding they will be eventually be brought into the mix.


The arguments as I have seen here is that eBikes have the ability to travel faster on uphills and flats than a pedal bike. Yes there are a few individuals out there that physically are fit enough to outpace a eBike on a flat or a hill, but that is the exception.

So, with the ability to easily travel at 20mph+ on a flat or uphill, the dynamics of Multi-use sharing change, now hikers and horse back riders need to be aware that bikes could be coming uphill behind them with much faster closing speed. This also means the closing speed with other bikes on the trail will increase. All these things CAN, but not necessarily WILL happen.

What scares most MTB trail users is the other user groups, Hikers and Horseback riders. If those groups perceive eBikes to be a threat, they will show up in droves at Land Management meetings and push back against motorized vehicles being on the same trails with them. Because bikes like the Levo are so hard to tell apart from a regular pedal bike, the second fear is that Lazy Land Managers might be temped to ban all 2 wheeled travel in some parks.

Speed of bikes has already closed some parks to 2 wheeled use, so this is not some far-fetched fantasy idea, this is reality:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/news/i...data-used-ban-cyclists-california-trails.html


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TuTone T said:


> I'm just trying to understand the argument against ebikes on the same trails as regular mtb bikes.


People here commonly report covering twice the distance they normally do in half the time, so for many riders they're 2x faster than bicycles.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

if SPEED is what you perceive as a iuess on mutiuse trail then why do we have wooden high bank turns on st park lands ???


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

We don't have any trails like that around here. Are those tracks frequented by hikers and horsey riders? High banked wooden turns sounds a little dicey for them to me.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes its in a mutl use trail no horse's but hikers


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'd probably hike elsewhere.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

rider95 said:


> Yes its in a mutl use trail no horse's but hikers


Wooden berm/features on a MUT? Please show me where this is... I've *never* heard of any land manager approving that type of construction on anything but one-way bike only trail - for obvious safety reasons.

Our local feature/flow trails have _skull and crossbones_ signs at the top and bottom to keep hikers and uphill traffic off (which doesn't stop some folks, but still).

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AshevilleMTB said:


> Hate mail? Lol. Scream hate at everything that disagrees with you.


I said that ebikers shouldn't poach and the two "gentlemen" said that I was advocating poaching; really intuitive, intelligent first post to the forum.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> The arguments as I have seen here is that eBikes have the ability to travel faster on uphills and flats than a pedal bike. Yes there are a few individuals out there that physically are fit enough to outpace a eBike on a flat or a hill, but that is the exception.
> 
> So, with the ability to easily travel at 20mph+ on a flat or uphill, the dynamics of Multi-use sharing change, now hikers and horse back riders need to be aware that bikes could be coming uphill behind them with much faster closing speed. This also means the closing speed with other bikes on the trail will increase. All these things CAN, but not necessarily WILL happen.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. That is the deal here.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> I said that ebikers shouldn't poach and the two "gentlemen" said that I was advocating poaching; really intuitive, intelligent first post to the forum.


I had a guy once neg rep me and then angrily proceed to tell me how wrong I was while essentially restating my position in agreement. Reading comprehension is questionable on this forum sometimes, try not to take it personally.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

D1o2u3g said:


> Sure, but in the US, we're talking about 750W and 20mph. And that assumes nobody modifies one. mailmarke.com - Email marketing


Which is my concern, basing future access on the impact from a handful of old guys riding Levos is presumptive. I'd rather wait until CA is full of 750w bikes and then decide where they are best ridden.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harryman said:


> I had a guy once neg rep me and then angrily proceed to tell me how wrong I was while essentially restating my position in agreement. Reading comprehension is questionable on this forum sometimes, try not to take it personally.


Thanks for pointing that out Harry; I need to be reminded from time to time. On another note, a friend and I rode our eMTB's on a six mile ascent today that requored 50 or so minutes; few months ago we rode the same trail on MTB's and took 45 minutes. Guess we better turn the power up a little.


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## Cavermatthew (Apr 9, 2015)

Sorry If this has already been said. The study is coming, don't worry. At the IMBA World Summit in November there was a lot of discussion regarding it, and it was said that it was very close to being released.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Just got home and set down after being hit by a car I bonced across the hood of the black mersades as I crossed in the cross walk with my head light on , fck well the guy was at least nice about it not at all like the black lady that hit me two yrs ago . So is the life of a e biker sorry off subj just a little pissed


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> Just got home and set down after being hit by a car I bonced across the hood of the black mersades as I crossed in the cross walk with my head light on , fck well the guy was at least nice about it not at all like the black lady that hit me two yrs ago . So is the life of a e biker sorry off subj just a little pissed


Was it an electric car? How ironic would that be? Are you injured or just pissed?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Lol you just not asked me if I got hit by a elec car ?? my elbow is a little sore The dude was cool aboot it yea I am a littie pissed broke my phone I have a very good lawyer


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Just got home and set down after being hit by a car I bonced across the hood of the black mersades as I crossed in the cross walk with my head light on , fck well the guy was at least nice about it not at all like the black lady that hit me two yrs ago . So is the life of a e biker sorry off subj just a little pissed


What color was the clumsy but friendly Mercedes driver?


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> People here commonly report covering twice the distance they normally do in half the time, so for many riders they're 2x faster than bicycles.


LOL! I am one of the "people" you are talking about. Yes we are doubling our speed and distance. In other words, we are now able to get a ride in that that mirrors the typical LLDR. (lycra lovin dirt roadie) Instead of averaging 4 mph for 10 miles we can average 8 mph for 20 miles. Not exactly smoking them tires.

My Levo tops out at 17 mph on a flat road. I can easily beat that with a non-ebike. When riding on a steep downhill the speed is just like a non-ebike. However, if the downhill is not very steep, the motor stays engaged and acts like an engine brake keeping the bike at the 17 mph limit. That really sucks because I am sure I could pedal and go faster but the braking action prevents it.

I don't know how much it would help to hack the Levo's speed because it is almost gear bound as it is and you have to pedal to make the motor work. Sure you could change the gearing for more speed but then you would lose some of low speed climbing torque. Also, we have mountains here in Utah. If you are going to try to climb under full power up some steep trail you better plan on a short ride with a dead battery. The beauty of the Levo is how a low power assist provides massive mileage and hours of enjoyment on one charge.

I have a theory of why the ebike is not really a threat to the local yocal trails. This requires an analogy to motos. Think of riding around on some dirt trails and jumps on a 125 cc moto. Then think of swapping that for 500 cc moto. It really is no fun to ride your 500 cc bike in the same riding area that you used for the 125 cc bike. The ebike is no different. You start looking for steeper trails. My Levo is like a foot longer than my regular bike. It has big tires. A regulary mtn bkr is not going to really enjoy climbing some steep hill with loose gravel. The Levo just motors right up without skipping a beat.

There is one trail I ride up with a regular mtn bk that is very loose and the sun beats down on you. I usually walk my bike up that section 90% of the time. I rented a Levo for my wife who is a non-mtn bkr. She motored up that section on the Levo and didn't even know it was a difficult section.

So in summary, except for the very old ebike rider, the increased capability will drive the more fit ebikers to harder trails. The harder trails tend to be less populated so there is less chance for user conflict. The increased capability also makes a churned up moto trail more appealing. There are trails that I ride moto on that never see any mtn bkr usage. I can't wait to get the Levo out there to ride!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> LOL!


Glad you get a kick out of it, I admit I don't get the joke though. I stated an apparent fact and you agreed, an e-bike can allow the average rider to travel twice as fast as they could on a bicycle.

I also don't get the logic that you could easily beat your Levo on a bicycle when the Levo allows you to cover twice the distance at double the speed.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Glad you get a kick out of it, I admit I don't get the joke though. I stated an apparent fact and you agreed, an e-bike can allow the average rider to travel twice as fast as they could on a bicycle.
> 
> I also don't get the logic that you could easily beat your Levo on a bicycle when the Levo allows you to cover twice the distance at double the speed.


The reason it is so funny is that the people buying these ebikes normally ride a regular mtn bike at half the speed and half the distance of a rider that is in shape. The ebike allows them to attain the same speed and distance that all the lycra wearing carbon fiber dudes get on a daily basis. Your local KOM or Strava rider wouldn't be caught dead on one of these bikes on a local trail. Sure, the ebike will out power them, but that is not going to be the normal modus operandi. People buying these things also want a workout. Of course there are always exceptions but they will be few.

When I said I could beat the Levo I was of course talking about flat ground riding or slight down hill riding.

Side story: One time I was way way up in the mountains on a steep trail riding a Levo. All of a sudden I got passed by a mtn bk. At first I couldn't believe it because I was riding at a good pace and there wasn't anyone near the trail when we started. I later caught the guy when he was stopped. He bought some whiz bang kit for like $900 and put it on his old mountain bike. Although these kits will install on some old junk bike I don't see them as a threat. We are talking 2.1 tires, very little suspension, wheels not designed for that kind of torque. Who wants to ride at moto speeds on a bike like that. I see those as more of a gimmick and dangerous for the rider. Those bikes will not hold up to that kind of power and I can't imagine the brakes being anywhere near adequate. This guy had his tires aired up to the maximum because he was scared to death of getting a pinch flat. That means no traction. Also, peeling out with those tires and they will be bald pronto.

So having said all that do I believe they should be banned from the trails? No. I see them more as a fad and I don't believe those guys will put any real time and miles on them. Plus, the added speed will drive them to ride in a place where they can open them up. That place will not typically be a multiuse trail. Do you really think they will want to wait on dogs and hikers every couple of minutes? They won't be any kind of a real threat to the trails for reasons stated here and from my previous post. Ie: 125cc comparison to 500cc.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Um, the bike (the Levo, as well as basically all other mid-drive e-bikes I'm familiar with) has a freewheel. There is no "engine braking" - you can go 40mph down a steep paved hill just like on any other bike.

Was that statement some kind of joke?

-W


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I probably am not using the correct term but let me explain. Say you rolled the bike out of your house and tried to pedal the bike (with the battery turned off) up the street. Not only do you have to pedal the 51 lb bike, you also have the high rolling resistance of a 3.0 tubeless tire at low pressure, AND the motor itself adds resistance when pedaling. Transfer that to when you are riding at governed speed with the battery on. When you try to pedal above the 17 mph you have to pedal the 51 lb bike plus the resistance of the motor. It is like you are stuck in a gravity well and there is no way above 17 mph until the grade of the road changes enough to overcome that additional weight and resistance.. Anyway, maybe it is just my bike. Sorry for the confusion. All you can think about when in that mode is that I really wish I was on a regular bike so I could ride faster. Cheers


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> The reason it is so funny is that the people buying these ebikes normally ride a regular mtn bike at half the speed and half the distance of a rider that is in shape. The ebike allows them to attain the same speed and distance that all the lycra wearing carbon fiber dudes get on a daily basis.


Thank you. That is a key reason why e-bikes and bicycles should each have their own trailhead markers, which would often coincide but sometimes not. I've been saying it from the start but you articulated it better.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I ride now and then with no power, in fact I turn off the power on long downhills to conserve the battery on really long rides! 

Is it heavy? Yes! I came from way back when regular mt bikes weighed 35 pounds all steel, had no suspension, really crappy brakes, narrow worthless hard rubber tires, and 18 speeds of which only 6 were good for anything! The Levo has all the modern features great sus, brakes and gears. It doesn't bother me a bit when I have run it down to nothing and had to ride out powerless, but I'm not racing, so it doesn't matter.

Downhill, the Levo is just as fast as any other ride. Nimble? No! You have to work it to get it to go fast, but the added weight is a real plus on carrying momentum until you hit a hill.

Hitting the rev limiter is like racing a modern 4 stroke moto you have to stay within the limiter, and you will be rewarded. Don't forget to shift and stay within the proper cadence. Tell me what "regular mt bike" doesn't slow down on hills? It's not the bike, it's the terrain! Uphills drain any power source.

Basically ride the bike as it was designed, and if your going long distances prepare to recharge, or do like I did, buy a spare battery. 6.4 pounds of bacon grease in my pack is great! 

Ride on!


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB & GW; really good point; out here in socal there are trails that are open to hikers, but closed to MTB's; good idea to designate them according to usage and other factors. Almost all of the trails that I ride (MTB or eMTB) are pretty desolate so can be used safely by all major groups.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> My Levo tops out at 17 mph on a flat road. I can easily beat that with a non-ebike. When riding on a steep downhill the speed is just like a non-ebike. However, if the downhill is not very steep, the motor stays engaged and acts like an engine brake keeping the bike at the 17 mph limit. That really sucks because I am sure I could pedal and go faster but the braking action prevents it.
> 
> I don't know how much it would help to hack the Levo's speed because it is almost gear bound as it is and you have to pedal to make the motor work.


Just to clarify, AFAIK, no one is hacking their Levos or other OEM emtbs for more power, it's just not practical. They are instead doubling their speed cut offs, so those that dislike having it turn into a 51lb bike at 17 mph are either buying dongles or in the case of the Levo, just using a free app on their phone.

For people who just want an assist, or don't care about riding fast, it's not a problem, but for anyone who does, it's really easy to bypass it. Next to impossible to get caught too.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't believe you can alter the speed on the Levo or there Turbo road bikes thru the Mission Control app. At least I'm not aware of it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/turbo-levo-tuning.9995/


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> The reason it is so funny is that the people buying these ebikes normally ride a regular mtn bike at half the speed and half the distance of a rider that is in shape. The ebike allows them to attain the same speed and distance that all the lycra wearing carbon fiber dudes get on a daily basis. Your local KOM or Strava rider wouldn't be caught dead on one of these bikes on a local trail. Sure, the ebike will out power them, but that is not going to be the normal modus operandi. People buying these things also want a workout. Of course there are always exceptions but they will be few..


So ebikes are only for out of shape riders? I that whay you are saying? Seems to me that even if I can climb well already I should get a Levo and ride twice as far and twice as fast as you on you Levo. Why should I get stuck behind some out of shape dude on an e-bike! I will just get my own smoke you. ...

Then you go out and the Levo II with twice the power and 50% less weight and catch up again. Hmm then I will get a Levo II and drop you again. All the while e-bike power arms race is going up and up and up.

Makes no sense at all. What keeps us mtn bikers on most trails is that we ARE non motorized. What this means is there is practical cap on power output which limits speeds on flat terrain and climbs. As Walt has stated is this limitation closing speed that allows bikers to co-exist with hikers and trail runners. Remember a trail runner can move at steady 8mph just a like mtn biker Sure a mtn biker can hit 15-20 mph in places, but generally speaking the average speed is closer to 6 to 14 mph for an entire loop. 99% of the places I ride are mixed use. There are hikers, trail runners and occasionally horses. Rarely are their any issues on climbs because we are going rather slow. Flats and descents can be an issue due to closing speeds that already exist. Once you start doubling climbing speed things change. What was 5 mph becomes 10. Considering the arms race that will occur conflicts will just get worse.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/turbo-levo-tuning.9995/


Wow, gonna try this on my Turbo S roadbike. Thx


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

JoePAz said:


> Makes no sense at all. What keeps us mtn bikers on most trails is that we ARE non motorized. What this means is there is practical cap on power output which limits speeds on flat terrain and climbs. As Walt has stated is this limitation closing speed that allows bikers to co-exist with hikers and trail runners. Remember a trail runner can move at steady 8mph just a like mtn biker Sure a mtn biker can hit 15-20 mph in places, but generally speaking the average speed is closer to 6 to 14 mph for an entire loop. 99% of the places I ride are mixed use. There are hikers, trail runners and occasionally horses. Rarely are their any issues on climbs because we are going rather slow. Flats and descents can be an issue due to closing speeds that already exist. Once you start doubling climbing speed things change. What was 5 mph becomes 10. Considering the arms race that will occur conflicts will just get worse.


Exactly, well said!

I saw a video of a 50-some y/o guy demoing a Levo the other day and he was passing riders left and right on a long climb. It was on a narrow singletrack so they all had to stop and pull over.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They should have all been on Levo's!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> They should have all been on Levo's!


Why do they have to be required to submit to the lowest common denominator? Levo riders should probably just ride elsewhere.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If you go down that logical path, we're right back at ICE motos...

-W


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Relax, just kidding!


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## Jefflinde (Mar 26, 2015)

saw this ad on the local Craigslist. i find it funny when pro electric motor bicycle people think that the current state of what an e-bike is will stay that way. this add proves otherwise. the poster is at least nice about not ****ing up trails and all but there is no way to keep people from doing it. this is the future of what will be available and it will be a watts race from here. 
4800 watt custom Electronic Bike


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I called first! It's mine.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's an ebike, it's 100% legal everywhere, right?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

A piss poor Motorcycle not gonna be allowed on any MT bike trail .


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Exactly, well said!
> 
> I saw a video of a 50-some y/o guy demoing a Levo the other day and he was passing riders left and right on a long climb. It was on a narrow singletrack so they all had to stop and pull over.


I had a guy weighing a buck fifty on a single speed yell trail at me and pass me like I wasn't moving.

I had a guy on a CX bike totally trash me on the trail.

One time I almost got into a head on with a stravahole while riding my old mtn bike.

I had to pull over and let all of them pass.

<see what I did there>


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> <see what I did there>


Missed the point?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> A piss poor Motorcycle not gonna be allowed on any MT bike trail .


So your electric bike not gonna be allowed on any MT bike trail? 
Also you didn't answer the question asked earlier. What color was the second driver that hit you?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

JACKL said:


> So your electric bike not gonna be allowed on any MT bike trail?
> Also you didn't answer the question asked earlier. What color was the second driver that hit you?


 You wouldn't ask that question unless you was one of the dangerously dumb who cant tell nor care that we are talking about the new middrives, and not the DD hub with 5000w . The car that hit me was a black Mercedes as I said, I see no relevance as to what color skin the driver had . My E bike is allowed any were I need or want to go and I ride it responsibly at all times even when I ride MT bike trails which I do often .


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Jefflinde said:


> saw this ad on the local Craigslist. i find it funny when pro electric motor bicycle people think that the current state of what an e-bike is will stay that way. this add proves otherwise. the poster is at least nice about not ****ing up trails and all but there is no way to keep people from doing it. this is the future of what will be available and it will be a watts race from here.
> 4800 watt custom Electronic Bike





> _And its 100% legal on sidewalks roads and bike trails and stuff long as you dont get caught going over 20mph an the bike paths. And stay off the single tracks we gota be responsible and respect the single track. I got single track ebikes if thats what ya want._


As if this disclaimer makes it okay..... /facepalm


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Crushing Mt Bikers with Motos should be a sport!

Oh crap...
...wait!!!!! How am I gonna run over myself. I have run over myself with my Moto, but I wasn't riding a Mt Bike at the same time!


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

That ad was awesome and very funny. It was also a fake. I see stuff like that all the time. Even if it wasn't fake that is not a bicycle. LOL


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