# Shimano XTR 2007 Pics



## blatido (Sep 14, 2005)

Go to http://www.light-bikes.de

129 grams for the rear derailleur... amazing!


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

Thats a typo. It weighs 199g. Don't ask me how I know.


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## blatido (Sep 14, 2005)

*How do you know?*

Anyway, 129g seemed too good to be true...


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, the pedals look exactly like old 959, still suck and are still heavy, the wheels look more 'normal' and are light, we'll see once they hit production...


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

A little birdie told me.

Its kinda disapointing. My old XTR derailleur is 195g, and will be even lighter soon...


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## FrankBooth (Aug 19, 2005)

more info

http://www.geocities.com/comamitc/IBD_2006_7_new_product_release.pdf


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## forceyoda (Nov 12, 2005)

I hope these pics are not ligit. That stuff is ugly.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

forceyoda said:


> I hope these pics are not ligit. That stuff is ugly.


in terms of design, yes shimano has regressed...it's fugly. is it still rapid rise?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

misctwo said:


> in terms of design, yes shimano has regressed


Please tell me how you know the FEA of the products already, where the stress occurs, where they were beefed up, where they were improved, what things were changed, why they were changed, etc...


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## - Jeremy - (Jan 13, 2004)

He meant they've regressed in aesthetic design... Not structural design.

- Jeremy -


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## Endomaniac (Jan 6, 2004)

forceyoda said:


> I hope these pics are not ligit. That stuff is ugly.


To each his own, IMHO that hydo dual control lever is just about the sweetest looking piece of handlebar art I have ever seen (Paul love levers excluded).


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

What's with the X-Men design theme. Possible use of Adamantium?


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

Endomaniac said:


> To each his own, IMHO that hydo dual control lever is just about the sweetest looking piece of handlebar art I have ever seen (Paul love levers excluded).


i guess i'd fall in love with the looks if i actually paid the $350 or so it'll probably sell for  but i prob still would hate dual control


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## What&son (Jan 13, 2004)

blatido said:


> Anyway, 129g seemed too good to be true...


In spanish "desviador" means front derailleur and "cambio" rear derailleur.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I think it's Stunning.
Industrial in it's simplicity none of this fancy pants soft girlie lines and all.

My rush is going tohave the whole kit ASAP. I just hope they have that Lefty compatible front hub by then. LOve Shimano XTR disc hubs.

After a recent 3 day stage race, which was actually a mud test facility, My Xtr's came out shining.
After three days I still had brake pads since the Shimano Metal pads are brilliant,

My gears coudl shift even in mud sine I was running SP41 continuous housing while the SRAM-o-philes suffered slipping gears worn chains and cassettes and no brakes...

Bring it on Mr Shimano!


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

misctwo said:


> in terms of design, yes shimano has regressed...it's fugly. is it still rapid rise?


You missed some important information: it will be available in Rapid Rise or Normal, as will the LX and XT.


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## What&son (Jan 13, 2004)

*for the dremel fanatics I know frequent this forum....*

.....the rapid rise version of the rear derailleur already asks for some dremel at the the logo lid. On the regular version is holding the clamp for the cable but at the R rise is only holding the logo! what you say?


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## bdaghisallo (Jan 10, 2006)

I don't ride a mountain bike, but I love bicycle technology, and that new XTR has me wishing I did. That stuff is sweet!! There is something incredibly attractive about things that are boiled down to pure function, with appearances given second thought. This new kit fits the bill!


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

Appears to be a nice setup! I'm still running the 952, and never liked the flippy levers. 

Am happy that they took their heads out of their asses and are offering a normal-rise with rapidfires again.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

wow, I'm actually Impressed with this stuff. I'm holding out final judgement when we see how it works and the actual weight


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## FastMovingTarget (Mar 30, 2005)

bhsavery said:


> wow, I'm actually Impressed with this stuff. I'm holding out final judgement when we see how it works and the actual weight


Mee too. I've seen claims that a pound is dropped from the entire group. That is very significant.

Amazing we have not seen the crankset. The most obvious piece of any bicycle component group and it remains a mystery. What's the deal with that

Oh, BTW, 25g for both pedals is a little disappointing. It's better than nothing but from 350g to 325g is not exactly earth shattering. Much lighter solutions from other manufacturers exist. I guess it's the large bearings that prevent greater weight savings.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> You missed some important information: it will be available in Rapid Rise or Normal, as will the LX and XT.


got it...thanks man..


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## dhpimp (Jan 4, 2006)

How can anyone NOT like this group! It's freakin' beautiful !!

I will definately be getting that group! The Carbon/Ti chainring sounds cool. Looks like the engineers finally said to themselves "okay, the aluminum is wearing out to fast, let's try something new."

PS: I think the 1 pound loss in weight is for the WHOLE group - including wheels (which lost a significant amount of weight).


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

*?????*

Where are the pics of the : Cranks, Disc Calipers, Front Der., and Separate Hydro Levers???

Thanks for any tips!


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

There's a phased release of info, and this first lot is supposed to be out on the 1st April (hs leaked a few days early). The rest is to be released in May and June, so no more info on cranks, brake calipers etc. till then. http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=6544


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

*Bummer....*

....Guess I'll just have to wait until Sea Otter next week to take a peek at the rest (I hope).


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## blatido (Sep 14, 2005)

What&son said:


> In spanish "desviador" means front derailleur and "cambio" rear derailleur.


Thanks but confusion is because in Mexico you refer to both derailleurs as "desviadores". Also, they refer to the "desviador" in the picture of the rear derailleur... wouldn't you think they're talking about the rear one?

Anyway, just a confusion...


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

dhpimp said:


> How can anyone NOT like this group! It's freakin' beautiful !!
> 
> I will definately be getting that group! The Carbon/Ti chainring sounds cool. Looks like the engineers finally said to themselves "okay, the aluminum is wearing out to fast, let's try something new."
> 
> PS: I think the 1 pound loss in weight is for the WHOLE group - including wheels (which lost a significant amount of weight).


I don't. It's awful and nearly the most ugly offering of parts I've seen (possibly next to some brake systems out there).

I've had enough bad experiences with Shimano to know that I will NEVER go with them again for anything except cranks (and possibly V-brakes).

There's no smoothness to this, no flowyness, nothing aesthetically pleasing whatsoever. I'll stick with my X.0 and be happy.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Are you crazy? Ever hear of fit and finish? Casting, bead blasting and anodizing is the cheapest low buck crap way to finish anything. If I want to spend $$$ on something, it better look like $$$. Would you spend $40,000 on a really awesome car that worked better than any other car on the road in that price range, but looked worse than a Yugo? At least X.O triggers look like it cost some money to produce, being CNC'd from billet and carbon, to justify the high price. Even the X.9 and X.7 triggers looke better constructed. I better buy my M960 front dreaileur before they are all out of stock....those componenets were beautiful.

BM


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## What&son (Jan 13, 2004)

blatido said:


> Thanks but confusion is because in Mexico you refer to both derailleurs as "desviadores". Also, they refer to the "desviador" in the picture of the rear derailleur... wouldn't you think they're talking about the rear one?
> 
> Anyway, just a confusion...


yes, spanish magazines frequently show missmatching pictures with descriptions, wrong spelling and all kind of mistakes...Now I see the article and they call it indeed "desviador trasero" instead of "cambio"....
But at the other magazine I have they call it "cambio". You see? It´s allways like this.
whatever...we will see

saludos


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## dhpimp (Jan 4, 2006)

bmadau said:


> Are you crazy? Ever hear of fit and finish? Casting, bead blasting and anodizing is the cheapest low buck crap way to finish anything. If I want to spend $$$ on something, it better look like $$$. Would you spend $40,000 on a really awesome car that worked better than any other car on the road in that price range, but looked worse than a Yugo? At least X.O triggers look like it cost some money to produce, being CNC'd from billet and carbon, to justify the high price. Even the X.9 and X.7 triggers looke better constructed. I better buy my M960 front dreaileur before they are all out of stock....those componenets were beautiful.
> 
> BM


That is a completely uneducated answer. First, XTR is all COLD FORGED - the most expensive and DURABLE way to forge aluminum. CNC is a cheap process that cuts the strongest part of a chunk of metal away to form something. The strongest part of a piece of metal is the outside. Why would you cut it away?

Second, Anodizing is a lot more expensive way to color materials versus the painted crap that is all over SRAM's highest end parts. At least you only get Paint on Shimano's lowest end stuff.

Who cares if your derailleur is carbon like the XO. What is the advantage? Not a thing. Give me metal over carbon on my rear derailleur any day!


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Do you work in a manufacturing industry? The expensive part of forging or casting is in the tooling. Once you have a tool, complex geometries on parts can be slammed out very quickly, reducing part cost. CNC takes a lot of time for complex parts, and is very expensive. Also, for a given alloy, cold forgin is a bit stronger, but a lot of times the alloy used in forging is a weaker alloy to forge easier, and increase tool life. CNC'd parts made from 7075 can be much stronger than a forged weaker alloy. Also, when forging the surface finish is very inconsistent and something needs to be done to make it look nice. Bead blasting is the cheapest way to accomplish this. Look at all ano bike frames? How many are bead blasted first before anodizing? why do you think that is? I have forged parts here at work that are bead blasted for that very reason. How much stress is carried through the surface of a part depends greatly on its design and how it's loaded. The inner part of the material carries a lot of load too. For small qty runs CNC is cheaper, when qty's get high enough you offset the cost of the tooling by attaining a closer to net shape with forging or casting reducing overall part price. 

FWIW, I'd be very surprised if all the parts are cold forged. The duald controld abomination doesn't look like it's a forgable shape. It looks very die cast, imo.

BM


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)




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## dhpimp (Jan 4, 2006)

bmadau said:


> Do you work in a manufacturing industry? The expensive part of forging or casting is in the tooling. Once you have a tool, complex geometries on parts can be slammed out very quickly, reducing part cost. CNC takes a lot of time for complex parts, and is very expensive. Also, for a given alloy, cold forgin is a bit stronger, but a lot of times the alloy used in forging is a weaker alloy to forge easier, and increase tool life. CNC'd parts made from 7075 can be much stronger than a forged weaker alloy.


Hence why XTR is cold forged with a material called Duralumin. Not a crappy alloy or 6000 series aluminium.Parts are expensive for a reason. Whether it is XTR or XO, they use high grade materials and the highest manufacturing procedures.

Cold Forging VS CNC with the same material: Cold Forging WAY WAY stronger!



bmadau said:


> Also, when forging the surface finish is very inconsistent and something needs to be done to make it look nice. Bead blasting is the cheapest way to accomplish this. Look at all ano bike frames?


Hence why all XTR parts are hand polished and not bead blasted.

The reason I am sticking up for XTR isn't because I love it, it is because it's really when people write stuff about a product that they really know nothing about. So many people end up spouting off things about parts when really they know nothing about it and got their opinion from reading some other uneducated persons opinion on a chat forum.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

dhpimp said:


> Hence why XTR is cold forged with a material called Duralumin. Not a crappy alloy or 6000 series aluminium.Parts are expensive for a reason. Whether it is XTR or XO, they use high grade materials and the highest manufacturing procedures.
> 
> Cold Forging VS CNC with the same material: Cold Forging WAY WAY stronger!
> 
> ...


yep good points...looks very cottage industry, a big departure from the 04-05-06 stuff....


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bmadau said:


> At least X.O triggers look like it cost some money to produce, being CNC'd from billet and carbon, to justify the high price.


Yes, I'd say they did an amazing job of making $250 rapid fire shifters that weigh the same as my 5 year old $40 shimano LX rapid fire shifters.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bmadau said:


> Do you work in a manufacturing industry? The expensive part of forging or casting is in the tooling. Once you have a tool, complex geometries on parts can be slammed out very quickly, reducing part cost. CNC takes a lot of time for complex parts, and is very expensive. Also, for a given alloy, cold forgin is a bit stronger, but a lot of times the alloy used in forging is a weaker alloy to forge easier, and increase tool life. CNC'd parts made from 7075 can be much stronger than a forged weaker alloy. Also, when forging the surface finish is very inconsistent and something needs to be done to make it look nice. Bead blasting is the cheapest way to accomplish this. Look at all ano bike frames? How many are bead blasted first before anodizing? why do you think that is? I have forged parts here at work that are bead blasted for that very reason. How much stress is carried through the surface of a part depends greatly on its design and how it's loaded. The inner part of the material carries a lot of load too. For small qty runs CNC is cheaper, when qty's get high enough you offset the cost of the tooling by attaining a closer to net shape with forging or casting reducing overall part price.
> 
> FWIW, I'd be very surprised if all the parts are cold forged. The duald controld abomination doesn't look like it's a forgable shape. It looks very die cast, imo.
> 
> BM


Well, shimano has claimed they are cold forged for some time, and a lot of forged products can be finished, so that you really can't tell just by looking at them.

You really seem to be grasping at straws here, you don't know shimano's processes, so why are you making things up about what they do, you really don't know do you?


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Yes, I'd say they did an amazing job of making $250 rapid fire shifters that weigh the same as my 5 year old $40 shimano LX rapid fire shifters.


And are a hell of a lot more durable than cheap plastic crap that shimano puts out.  Strong, light, cheap. Pick two. Shimano LX - XT = light and cheap

I really have no love for Shimano, but I am glad they're actually going back to independent pieces. Dual control is an awful idea.

Can't say I like the new parts....at all....but they're out there, and competition breeds innovation.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2006)

Has anyone checked out the shimano website?

http://newxtr.shimano.com/publish/c...essionid=c0858470-f2a3-8d48-88f9-484e25a8db62


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

FastMovingTarget said:


> Amazing we have not seen the crankset. The most obvious piece of any bicycle component group and it remains a mystery. What's the deal with that


50grams lighter than its predecesor... middle ring is carbonfiber with titanium teeth and an aluminium outer ring with a nickel plated finish.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> And are a hell of a lot more durable than cheap plastic crap that shimano puts out.  Strong, light, cheap. Pick two. Shimano LX - XT = light and cheap


Hmm, they've lasted 5 years, I think they're adaquately strong, in fact the internals are made of metal of course. I don't know how many people break rapid fire shifters, but I haven't ever heard of many, if any.


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Hmm, they've lasted 5 years, I think they're adaquately strong, in fact the internals are made of metal of course. I don't know how many people break rapid fire shifters, but I haven't ever heard of many, if any.


I've seen at least 3 busted pods myself. Doesn't speak for Shimano's quality at least in my eyes.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Yes you can.

http://www.engineersedge.com/forgings.htm
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1719696#poststop

Look at the tight radius geometries on the dual control units and the triggers. Maybe there are some cold forged parts here and there, but those main body componens do not look forged. Every forging design guide I've read and every forgin house I've spoken to, and not cold forging, hot forging which is easier to make the metal "flow" into tighter radii, have all said you need way more drafts and way larger radiuses than those parts have.

Duralumin- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duralumin
close equivalent to 2024 (good forging alloy)
2024-t6 material properties: http://matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA2024T6
7075-t6 material properties: http://matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA7075T6

How much stronger is a forging over a billet part anyway? I've never fround any definitive information other than the vague (it'stronger!) comment. I've heard it all my life, and I don't doubt it, but never found a number anywhere. Over a casting, yeah, it's wicked stronger because castings tend to be a bit brittle and pourous.

BM


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## Ernest Lam (Apr 11, 2004)

mateo said:


> Has anyone checked out the shimano website?
> 
> http://newxtr.shimano.com/publish/c...essionid=c0858470-f2a3-8d48-88f9-484e25a8db62


Haha! Stupid idea to "blacken" away those "not-yet" designed parts like cranks and brake levers.

Even more stupid. You can actually see the new hydro lever when you go into the page of SL-M970 RAPIDFIRE Plus Shift Lever, they want you to know how to shift and how you can place your shifter, so they showed you the hydro lever!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bmadau said:


> How much stronger is a forging over a billet part anyway? I've never fround any definitive information other than the vague (it'stronger!) comment.


Well, then why are you running your mouth about it?

And you don't seem to have an appreciation for some of the difference processes, such as casting. Single crystal alloy casts can be incredibly strong (in a certain direction). The only point that I'm making with this comment is that you don't really know what's going on with these products, and you're making assumptions and guesses, and then when called on it, you're just trying to back out of it with the above kinds of comments.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

As someone who's been to the Shimano factory in Japan, can I just say that Shimano is first and foremost a forging company, and the vast majority of their parts are forged where they can be, then post-machined in some way for their final shape and finish.

Why? Because they're a forging company!

Why the lack of carbon in the XTR and Dura Ace groupsets? Because they're a forging company!

Geez. Amazingly purile little squabble you guys are having. Leave it at the office.


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## wrinklefree (Jun 17, 2005)

*Here's some non-studio pics for ya from Bikemagic*


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> As someone who's been to the Shimano factory in Japan, can I just say that Shimano is first and foremost a forging company, and the vast majority of their parts are forged where they can be, then post-machined in some way for their final shape and finish.
> 
> Why? Because they're a forging company!
> 
> ...


Yes indeed - that should have been obvious. Don't know why I was so taken in with all the talk of carbon really. Definitely some scope for aftermarket carbon / tuning though, with that separate clamp on the triggers being one obvious candidate.


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Seems they still haven't gotten rid of that damned loop of housing behind the RD.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

You're missing my whole point. The look cheap. I don't care how well they are made, how strong they really are, which no matter what anyone says, isn't significantly stronger than any other high end component in the same class. Whether or not they are cold forged from unobtanium they look as if they were cast from some cheap alloy. XTR quality has always been top notch, and I'm sure the new groupset will perform, but it looks far worse than last years deore components.

Evolution?


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> I've seen at least 3 busted pods myself. Doesn't speak for Shimano's quality at least in my eyes.


And how many broken SRAM rear derailleurs? A lot!


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

bmadau said:


> You're missing my whole point. The look cheap. I don't care how well they are made, how strong they really are, which no matter what anyone says, isn't significantly stronger than any other high end component in the same class. Whether or not they are cold forged from unobtanium they look as if they were cast from some cheap alloy. XTR quality has always been top notch, and I'm sure the new groupset will perform, but it looks far worse than last years deore components.
> 
> Evolution?


Correct.


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> And how many broken SRAM rear derailleurs? A lot!


Funny, I've broken exactly ZERO SRAM derailleurs or shifters, and I've had absolutely zero problems keeping everything nicely tuned up. Quite a difference in comparison to shimano which needs to be retuned every other ride, doesn't work well in mud, and is slow and clunky in the feel.

Then again, you may have the exact opposite experience.

Honestly, it's too little too late for Shimano. They drove a lot of their consumer base away with the forced dual control. People don't generally shift brands unless they have a good reason to. It'll be tough to win back the people that went to SRAM due to the DC mess.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

bmadau said:


> You're missing my whole point. The look cheap. I don't care how well they are made, how strong they really are, which no matter what anyone says, isn't significantly stronger than any other high end component in the same class. Whether or not they are cold forged from unobtanium they look as if they were cast from some cheap alloy. XTR quality has always been top notch, and I'm sure the new groupset will perform, but it looks far worse than last years deore components.
> 
> Evolution?


I think SRAM stuff looks much cheaper but that's just me... not a fan of plastic.

And why should we care? If the performance is there, the look is not that important. XTR has always worked flawlessly for me, has always been very durable and looks just fine. I had the last 2 generation XTR derailleurs and I'm sure, when it hits production, the new one will work and look just fine.


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> And why should we care? If the performance is there, the look is not that important.


That's ridiculous. Do you care that your bike is painted? Do you have yellow, green, pink, orange, purple, red and blue parts all on the same bike? If you do and it doesn't bother you, that's fine.

However, aesthetics are indeed important to a lot of people. Hell, aesthetics are often a selling point that brings people to initially look at a product and are a very good way to sell people on something.

It basically boils down to the same thing it does in every industry: if it doesn't look good and perform well all at the same time, it's doomed to be overshadowed by something that performs "ok" and looks the part.

Again, I'm not meaning to be combative, but just dismissing anyone who actually cares about the aesthetics of the parts just because "they work well" is ridiculous.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Funny, I've broken exactly ZERO SRAM derailleurs or shifters, and I've had absolutely zero problems keeping everything nicely tuned up. Quite a difference in comparison to shimano which needs to be retuned every other ride, doesn't work well in mud, and is slow and clunky in the feel.
> 
> Then again, you may have the exact opposite experience.


Exactly. I had better experience with Shimano in the long run. If someone else prefers SRAM, it's just fine. Think about it, at least now we have a choice, before there was nothing else comparable to Shimano so everybody wins now.



robdamanii said:


> Honestly, it's too little too late for Shimano. They drove a lot of their consumer base away with the forced dual control. People don't generally shift brands unless they have a good reason to. It'll be tough to win back the people that went to SRAM due to the DC mess.


I agree. While I am one of the few who actually likes Dual Controls, having both DC and up to date triggers is wise and they will probably suffer the fact that they didn't offer both for a while.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> People don't generally shift brands unless they have a good reason to.


Are you kidding?

Work in a bike shop for a few months.

People switch brands because they messed up the installation, or because the cables just need to be replaced, or for a myriad of other stupid reasons.

Then, when the new stuff is installed correctly, it "magically" works better.


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Are you kidding?
> 
> Work in a bike shop for a few months.
> 
> ...


Generally, a botched install would mean "broken product" which would mean they have a reason to switch. If they need cables replaced and switch shifter/derailleur brands just because of cables, then they have some other reason to switch besides that, otherwise they'd go with new cables.

It's in human nature to be resistant to change once you find something that works well for you. I don't see people who ran from DC levers ditching their $200 (minimum) SRAM setups and dropping 350 or $400 on an XTR setup. Unless they have a HUGE excess of money.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> That's ridiculous. Do you care that your bike is painted? Do you have yellow, green, pink, orange, purple, red and blue parts all on the same bike? If you do and it doesn't bother you, that's fine.
> 
> However, aesthetics are indeed important to a lot of people. Hell, aesthetics are often a selling point that brings people to initially look at a product and are a very good way to sell people on something.
> 
> ...


Everybody has it's own opinion, many don't care for looks and will buy XTR because it's the top of the line Shimano group. I do care for aesthetics but not at the point where I wouldn't consider a better part because the one that doesn't work as good looks better. I agree that if Shimano didn't care about the look of their products, it would be disastrous as many consider the superficiality of the look an important criteria but to me and many others, most of this new XTR looks great, better than SRAM products. Yes I prefer better looking parts but my point is that Shimano didn't 'butched' the design, they did a great job.

And just as a side note, my bike is not even painted, it's a silver and black piece of art (to me, which is all I care about). That new XTR rear derailleur would look nice on it.


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## Hosehead (May 4, 2005)

bmadau said:


> How much stronger is a forging over a billet part anyway? I've never fround any definitive information other than the vague (it'stronger!) comment. I've heard it all my life, and I don't doubt it, but never found a number anywhere. Over a casting, yeah, it's wicked stronger because castings tend to be a bit brittle and pourous.
> 
> BM


The strength difference between forging and a billet hog out depends on on so many factors that it is individual to each part. Raw strength isn't the only property that is affected either.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

It's pretty clear who the Sram Employess are on this forum.

*Cable Loop:*

Why the fixation on the cable loop. Th SRAM cable routing is jsut different and actually no better. In fact it introduces more friction into the system. And anyone who has actually used SRAM for more than a few months will realise that you go through cables faster and your shifting needs more adjustment in the first few weeks than the equivalent Shimano system.
The mud performance of SRAM in my experience has been shocking! The cassette clogs up faster cos it has less area to allow mud to move around, and the derailleur becomes hard to actuate

*Manufacturing*

Cold forging, CNC, both viable manufacturing processes. However COld forging, Hot forging, HERF and casting are all superior to CNC maching processes for large production runs.

Desepite the fact that SRAM looks CNC machined it is in Fact investment cast. Break a derailleur and you'll see the structure of the metal is sort like lots of tiny bubbles. In fact it's not cast very well either..

If you break a Shimano derialleur you will find a much much finer grain structure, indicating more attention to detail in the forging process.

Shimano Cold Forges because they are actually a Foundry with forging and casting capability. They make components for Honda, Toyota, Fuji (Subaru) and other. All superior brands to US made vehicles. SOunds to me like Shimano are a company that knows their stuff while SRAM is a great marketing company.

*Dual Control Levers*

These are built up from parts that Pressed, Forged, cast and moulded. CNC is not a good fininshing process here except for prototypes where quality control is over a much smaller batch. also as has already been stated, CNC machining removes the good material and leaves the grain aligbned but softer material below for machining. Typically CNC'd parts have to have post treatments like heat treatment for strength recovery. IF you need a part to have a bit of give then CNC is good.
If you need to post machine a component because it was not possibel to cast in the feature or forge it in place then CNC is good.

Now I just wish the people who have no engineering knowledge would quit raping the engineering industry and shut up and talk only about the things they know.

Generally forging yields a much stronger product due to the fact you can align the grain of the material in the direction it is needed for maximum strength, often multiple directions within one component. This is NOT Possible with CNC.

Hence Prototypes that have been CNC'd do not necessarily resemble the finished forged component because often they are geometric models designed to test the strength and therefore are not dimentionally similar except for general layout and shape


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## robdamanii (Sep 27, 2005)

Brad said:


> It's pretty clear who the Sram Employess are on this forum.
> 
> *Cable Loop:*
> 
> ...


And it's pretty clear that you are a shimano fanboy who despises people who use SRAM.

1) I hate the damned cable loop getting caught in trailside debris and dragging it along. Contrary to your "i'm and engineer and know all" opinion, I've had infinately less trouble with my SRAM setup than my shimano. I've replaced the cables more, true, but it shifts more positively and requires LESS tinkering to work properly. Additionally, your mud comment is the EXACT opposite of my experience. I have zero problems in heavy mud with the SRAM setup, while shimano cries when it runs through mud.

2) and 3): I really don't give a damned if they're made of butter or not. I've broken neither kind of RD, so build process is relatively moot to me.

And for the record, I have absolutely no professional connection with the bike industry whatsoever. Good call on guessing everyone who likes SRAM over shimano is a SRAM employee.



> SOunds to me like Shimano are a company that knows their stuff while SRAM is a great marketing company.


And shimano is a sh!tty marketing company that tries to force consumers into adapting to THEIR standards, as opposed to adapting to what the consumers want. It's perfectly clear that you believe shimano can do no wrong and is the end all of drivetrain. Good for you. I'll stick with the competition, which I have had utterly phenominal success with.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

Brad said:


> It's pretty clear who the Sram Employess are on this forum.
> 
> *Cable Loop:*
> 
> ...


It's also clear you don't know how the SRAM dreaileur works. The cable never slides through the loop, just rolls around it. The shimano loop stands to have more friction by making the cable slide through that tight radius. FWIW, I've never had serious problems with either deraieur. The SRAM setup is easier to keep in tune and skips less, but still skips sometimes, and I've never broken a deraileur. I ride sram because a buddy of mine gave me an X.0 rear mech and X.9 triggers for free. The one thing I noticed right away is chain slap was a bit quieter wiht the SRAM, and I like shifting with my thumbs and leaving my finger on the brake lever. That can be done wiht shimano, just easier with sram triggers.

As far as manufacturing goes, they are all top notch, and I'm not going to break deraileurs to compare grain structures. I've never doubted that forgins are stronger than CNC in the same alloys. It is just that usually forgins are made from weaker, easier to forge alloys and no one, not even yourself with as many words you used has said whether or not the "forging yields a much stronger product" makes up that diferance in strength. Often, in my experience, if a part's geometry warrants some sort of tool being made anyway, the CNC was already out of the question, so then the choice is between casting and forging anyway, and forging is WAY stronger than a casting. Look at crankshafts in cars for example, no one in mass production makes a billet crank. Low performace cars often hve cast cranks, high performance cars have forged cranks. Even further, high end race cars ofthen have billet cranks. Why?? http://www.flatlanderracing.com/scat-cblight.html They are wicked expensive and by common knowlege weaker? If you want to talk about aluminum, why do aerospace companies machine huge structures out of billet when they could be forged to a near net shape first? A close friend of mine is a manufacturing engieer at Lockheed in Texas and programs large parts that have over 90% of the material cut away to make a part that more closely resembles a sheet metal part than a machined part. Maybe the reason is the alloy? CNC out of one alloy just might be stronger than forgign from another alloy.

I am not a SRAM employee either. I have components from both mfgs. The XTR M960 is to lust after, and I will be buying up a few more of them before they are gone. I am in the engieering feild, and I've been around metal working my whole life. I started out in manufacturing, and moved into mechanical design a few years back. I've desinged machined part, cast and forged parts. I've designed plastic parts and rubber parts. I don't know it all, but I have a gerneral knowlege of how things are made, and when one mfg process outwieghts another.

The first picture is of my deraileur to illustrate how the cable doesn't slide around that loop.

The second picture is of a part I designed that we had prototypes CNC'd in house (that I also programmed) which is forged in productin. CNC takes hours, forging takes minutes, casting would be too weak. This part in CNC form is plenty strong enough, the choice for which MFG method to use was between forging and casting, and in between the two, forging is a lot stronger, between forging and CNC, it doesn't matter, either part is plenty strong enough.


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## timkstl (Mar 8, 2005)

IMO, the pedals may be heavy, but anything made by wellgo can be made light because they have no durability. being a buyer for a bicycle store for 10+ years, our customers figure out pretty quick why a crank bros pedal is 100gm less.

i'll stick to real, honest to goodness SPD's. even the cheap 520's last longer than all of the wellgo variations...or anyone elses for that matter.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

timkstl said:


> IMO, the pedals may be heavy, but anything made by wellgo can be made light because they have no durability. being a buyer for a bicycle store for 10+ years, our customers figure out pretty quick why a crank bros pedal is 100gm less.
> 
> i'll stick to real, honest to goodness SPD's. even the cheap 520's last longer than all of the wellgo variations...or anyone elses for that matter.


Shimano would have to be quite revolutionnary for me to ditch the Eggbeaters. Yes the Crank Bros. are not as durable but so much lighter and what does it for me is the consistant entry and release in real mountain biking conditions (mud, dirt, water, snow...). SPDs really suck in those conditions. Rebuilding them is super easy too so these new XTR pedals could last 700 years, I'm sticking with the eggs...


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

*Phew . . . its just a thread*



Brad said:


> It's pretty clear who the Sram Employess are on this forum.
> 
> *Cable Loop:*
> 
> ...


ROLFOMA  

About all I can say is the rapid fire shifters look interesting. How lite are they? BTW I run shimano but this XTR seems to be correcting old mistakes and doesn't present anything that interests me in terms of WW's/SSW threads. I don't doubt it may interest others and have had a lot of thought put into it. Well done Shimano. I propose a new "clear" version the next time around.


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

I'd have to agree on the SPD Vs Eggbeater issue - SPD's are fine if you have no dirt present but in real world conditions Eggbeaters have them beat hands down. Plus they are easy to rebuild, easier to get in and out of and weigh alot less. Oh and they look cool too!


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## dennis rides Scott (Mar 3, 2005)

Thomas Anderson said:


> I'd have to agree on the SPD Vs Eggbeater issue - SPD's are fine if you have no dirt present but in real world conditions Eggbeaters have them beat hands down. Plus they are easy to rebuild, easier to get in and out of and weigh alot less. Oh and they look cool too!


Hello, I live in Belgium. At the moment this is the land of the mud. I never had a single problem with the SPD's in the mud. They worked perfect. Now I use Eggbeaters, only for weight. They work also good in mud, only different. I have to getting used to the loose feeling with the Eggbeaters.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I'm not Shimano fan, justnot a SRAM Man, although I was for many years.

Being from the aerospace industry I understand exactly why some parts are machined from billet and others not.
COST!!

If you're making only production run of 5 it's far cheaper to CNC the material away than to incur the cost of tooling and moulds for HERF or other forming techniques.

DO you think Shaped charged liners are CNC'd are or Forged?........................
Forged, wonder why..?
Maybe greater accuracy and repeatability of dimensions is the reason..

Of COurse i have an engineers better than you approach because I 've seen people fit components badly blame the components then run out and buy some thing more expensive and have it professionally fitted and suddenly it's a better product.

AS for the silly comment that the cable on the SRAM derailleur does not slide, I suggest you take a closer look. It has to slide since the elbow on the deraileur is merely therefore to create the tension and leverage. Theres still sliding motion.
If the elbox rotated as the cable is actuated I would agree that theres no sliding motion, but It's rigidly fixed so there has to be sliding motion.

Now I;m off to go ride my bike with it's 2003 vitage XTR thats done over 12000km off road and still working while I try to sell my hardtail with 2 yrs old SRAM thats fallen apart..


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

*v. nice*



Brad said:


> I'm not Shimano fan, justnot a SRAM Man, although I was for many years.
> 
> Being from the aerospace industry I understand exactly why some parts are machined from billet and others not.
> COST!!
> ...


that was awesome. stick around, we need you to lay down the law earlier in these type posts


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

It does rotate with the cage. It is rigidly mounted to the cage. In fact when I take my wheel off I hold on to that to lever the deraileur out of the way of my cassette. If I rode in today I would take pics of it in both positions to illustrate (it's pouring rain)....

And in your earlier post you make a comment about SRAM's stuff investment cast, but I just checked their X.0 deraileur on their website it states that the links a b-knuckle are forged:
"Material:: Forged alloy links and B-knuckle, High Strength Grilon® P-knuckle, Machined and heat treated oversized pivot pins, sealed cartridge bearing pulleys, CNC long-cage / Carbon Fiber on med. and short"

In the attacehd photo the whole area outlined in red is fastened together rigidly as one piece and it all pivots on the green pin. In the second photo, off of the SRAM website, you can see one of the rivets holding it to the lower linkage.


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## timkstl (Mar 8, 2005)

i realize that the egg beater may be the latest flash in the pan, like time atacs before them, and the wellgo invasion before them. let's not talk about the onza's.

i got my first pair of shimano 737's in 1991. i tried various pedals over the years, and even though the latest shimano pedals haven't always been the best in mud, they are so far superior in durability that i can save 100 grams somewhere else. i can certainly do without regular rebuilds, as it's hard enough to find time to clean the bike, much less rebuild a small piece of it. another poster did hit it on the head when mentioning the high milage xtr group vs. sram's stuff. i love the sram stuff, but am a bit put off by it's longevity.

i really don't like to hang on shimano's nuts. i think the dual control garbage is as bad as biopace or u-brakes on mtn bikes. but, you have to give credit where credit is due.


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## loosch (Feb 16, 2005)

High stress aluminium parts for aircraft are cold forged then machined, then usually shot peened, anodized and then painted. Composite materials are often used because for the same performance they are cheaper, or offer better performance per $$$. Composite parts are always painted for aircraft use. Performance is key not fashion.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

bmadau, I've checked my broken x.9 and yes i agree the elbow is attached to the lower cage plate. However upon examining the action there is still a bit of sliding motion. It is in effect a lever arm anchored at the retaining bolt.
Even in his application the cable still experiences friction, due to the higher tension and the sliding action.
This is why Mining cables are lubed extensively even though they run over rolling pulleys.

A shimano derailleur uses the loop in the cable housing to provide the leverage, hence the loop is a lubricated housing. No lube, the shifting goes south.

with a sram rear mech, no lube the shifting goes south.

If the SRAM components are indeed forges as they claim i'd like to know why their grain structure is so much bigger than the bits from the other S..

Grilon is a Brand name for polyamide 6, polyamide 66 and co-polyamide......basically *NYLON!!!* I know this because i designed many components for low wear, lowish friction high impact strength applications using this material available from EMS Grivory called Grilon TSC-30/4 LF 15, the smae stuff used for teh SRAM deraileurs elbow. You can google it if you like.
The Grilon product is Nylon 66 (Nylon with carbon black and Molybdenum disulphide also known as Vesconite) impreganted with PTFE and Silicon Oil. That lube does eventually break down increasing the friction on the elbow, leading to faster cable wear and shifting issues.

With Shimano mechs, if you run a continuous outer it will last for years and the shifting will remain excellent. Hence I have not replaced my XTR Outers since I fitted the groupset.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Agreed here. I think the whole SRAM vs. Shimano debate is pretty pointless. You simply get what you pay for. If you want carbon (nylon) and polished-to-a-mirror bling, go ahead and spend $250 on shifters and $180 on a deraileur that snaps off if you bang it on a rock. Shimano, on the other hand, is slightly bland with its forged and coated parts, but also a tad more durable.

As to function I think the only significant difference is ergonomics. SRAM's different actuation ratio makes setup and mis-shifting less of a problem, but not by leaps and bounds. The only place one company has an edge over the other is how things fit in your hands. Some people absolutely hate twisting their wrist to shift. I simply disliked RapidFire, making the choice easy. Similarly, DualControl works fine for some, and is an abomination to others.

People really need to just ride whatever suits them. SRAM nor Shimano is really better.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Agreed Eric,

The whole debate is actually quite ridiculous. Post a Shimano thread and the SRAM'o philes, who must be very insecure people, start turning what is essentially an information thread into a Shimano bashing and "My stuff is better than yours whea whea wheawhe".

Ergonomics is the biggest differentiator. But guaranteed someone will now claim the SRAM ergonomics to be superior.....


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

If the SRAM no loop design is so much better, why then is SRAM using a conventional loop on their new top end road group?


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## Rutnick (Nov 24, 2005)

Is it me or does the new XTR rapidfires look amazingly like the Sram X.0? Are the XTR thumb thumbs?

*shrugs*

I honestly don't care what anyone runs. Personally, I'm not going to be buying these. I have a chance to buy a HT with X.0 but that doesn't mean I would buy the group.

For those people that talk about durability of shimano, I find the durability of the current crop to be less than the past. I have broken 2 XT rear derailers this year on my FS bike. They both broke in the same place.

My 2000 XT rear derailer on my HT is still running strong.

I guess my post is moot. I won't be getting the new XTR stuff anytime soon. I have a XTR front derailer and it works great.



blatido said:


> Go to http://www.light-bikes.de
> 
> 129 grams for the rear derailleur... amazing!


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## dennis rides Scott (Mar 3, 2005)

Rutnick said:


> Is it me or does the new XTR rapidfires look amazingly like the Sram X.0? Are the XTR thumb thumbs?


Is it just me or does the Sram X.0 looks amazingly like the Shimano rapidfire, wich is released in 1990?

Weren't the first rapidfire's thumb thumbs?

I use XTR on one bike and Sram on a other, just because I didn't want to use Shimano's Dual control. Also was thinking that Rapidfire would dissapear. I love them both.


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## misctwo (Oct 24, 2004)

dennis rides Scott said:


> Is it just me or does the Sram X.0 looks amazingly like the Shimano rapidfire, wich is released in 1990?
> 
> Weren't the first rapidfire's thumb thumbs?
> 
> I use XTR on one bike and Sram on a other, just because I didn't want to use Shimano's Dual control. Also was thinking that Rapidfire would dissapear. I love them both.


yes you're right, those rapidfire's were originally thumb-thumb, and i remember those shifters were derided as the joke of the shifting world once rapidfire plus came out.

then sram comes along and breathes new life into the concept and people rejoice at the prospect of an alternative system to RP+ and gripshit.

i wouldn't say the resemblance is amazing, very similar though in concept...i think sram has done it better.


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## weather (Jan 12, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> If the SRAM no loop design is so much better, why then is SRAM using a conventional loop on their new top end road group?


because a road bike doesn't dive into the bushes and have RD loop caught on a branch? because roadie RD doesn't bounce around like mtbs do? because road bikes don't see nearly as much dirt/grime/stuff to mess up the cable housing? because roadie racers need to swap wheels when they flat and conventional setup makes this faster?

milliions of possible explanations because road and mtb derailleurs work in different environments. how do you know SRAM didn't use the no-loop design because it creates problems?


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## Rutnick (Nov 24, 2005)

this response is for you and Dennis. People keep talking about shimano or sram and then remember that shimano did things a certain way in the past.

Come on...shimano is like the microsoft of cycling. I seem to remember some ratcheting thumbshifters made by a company called suntour. Why do I remember them? Well, because I rode a rigid MTB tonight that has them. We did a night ride tonight and I finally took a close look at a friend's "beater bike". That thing was high end when it came out. It still rides smooth and the shifting is still crisp. Actually, three guys in my club have suntour ratcheting shifters. I also have a set in the toolbox.

I was talking specifically about the specific look of the XTR shifters. They look very close to the X.0 to me.



misctwo said:


> yes you're right, those rapidfire's were originally thumb-thumb, and i remember those shifters were derided as the joke of the shifting world once rapidfire plus came out.
> 
> then sram comes along and breathes new life into the concept and people rejoice at the prospect of an alternative system to RP+ and gripshit.
> 
> i wouldn't say the resemblance is amazing, very similar though in concept...i think sram has done it better.


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## Rutnick (Nov 24, 2005)

and another friend has the shimano shifters you are talking about....compared to the suntour shifters those shimano shifters were crap. You are talking about the 1st generation rapidfires aren't you?



misctwo said:


> yes you're right, those rapidfire's were originally thumb-thumb, and i remember those shifters were derided as the joke of the shifting world once rapidfire plus came out.
> 
> then sram comes along and breathes new life into the concept and people rejoice at the prospect of an alternative system to RP+ and gripshit.
> 
> i wouldn't say the resemblance is amazing, very similar though in concept...i think sram has done it better.


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## cy6ex (Jun 6, 2004)

*Disappointing news*

 I totally agree with you. I mean, what is up with the 'X' theme design?!?!


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

cy6ex said:


> I mean, what is up with the 'X' theme design?!?!


It's because Shimano wants us all to talk about it....which we're doing....damn!


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Why the lack of carbon in the XTR and Dura Ace groupsets? Because they're a forging company!
> .


Sorry to resurrect this, but just had a thought: Surely Campag are a forging company too, so how come they manage to have carbon on their top-end stuff but Shimano don't?


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

chris m said:


> Sorry to resurrect this, but just had a thought: Surely Campag are a forging company too, so how come they manage to have carbon on their top-end stuff but Shimano don't?


Italians are more into trends and fashions.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LOL,

partly true.
Campagnolo actually started out making casting, investment and die casting automotive components. They moved into forging for aluminium road car wheels and coupled this to their casing history.
Their automotive side is pretty big and they also make moulds for composite body kits. To showcase their expertise they started using carbon fibre in intricate bicycle parts. 
A lot of the parts in carbon on Campagnol groupsets are very cosmetic and typically aluminium can do a better and cheaper job


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