# Magicshine Light Argument Thread



## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

lamb said:


> I got my light set in November due to all the praise on here, then not even a week later after receiving the light, the lights were recalled. It makes me pretty mad when I think about it, I for one will not be spending one more cent with this company. It is now July and I have not received a new battery. I just do not understand how people can sit here and praise how this is going down. I was sold a defective battery pack, then a week later told to quit using it-- for what turns out to be 8 months. Wow, great service! I understand that geoman has went out of his way to make people happy in the PAST, but unfortunately for me, this is about some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced. I would have just wanted my money back in the first place, but it is my understanding that the unit be unused. During that whole big week between getting the unit and finding out about the notice, I used the light. I feel as if they had to know the lights were going to be recalled, so why did they keep selling them up to the very last moment? This is complete BS in my book.


You should have just returned it, several others did, even though they were used once or twice in the 30 day grace period after purchase. Live and learn I guess.

Everyone is full of praise for Geoman because he's standing behind a cheap and underspecced light when no one else, _especially_ the manufacturer, would. This is a light that costs $70 or so direct from Deal Extreme in China - if you bought it from them you wouldn't even have the option of a new battery. It's a cheap light, essentially a disposable item at that price point. Complaining about a company that is standing behind it's customers after they cheaped out and bought a low rent light just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry that your experience sucked and I hope you have better luck in the future. I would suggest though, that if you want to avoid a repeat of the same, that you spend $200 extra and get a Baja Stryker or Lupine Piko.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> You should have just returned it, several others did, even though they were used once or twice in the 30 day grace period after purchase. Live and learn I guess.
> 
> Everyone is full of praise for Geoman because he's standing behind a cheap and underspecced light when no one else, _especially_ the manufacturer, would. This is a light that costs $70 or so direct from Deal Extreme in China - if you bought it from them you wouldn't even have the option of a new battery. It's a cheap light, essentially a disposable item at that price point. Complaining about a company that is standing behind it's customers after they cheaped out and bought a low rent light just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry that your experience sucked and I hope you have better luck in the future. I would suggest though, that if you want to avoid a repeat of the same, that you spend $200 extra and get a Baja Stryker or Lupine Piko.


Sorry, but people don't deserve the danger because they bought the cheaper light. It was the manufacturer's responsibility to provide a reasonably safe product or no product.

You may have an argument, say caveat emptor, that they purchased a poorly performing light and shouldn't complain, but when a product poses a risk to burn your garage or light up your airplanes cargo hold then the company must take action!

I do agree that Geomangear does deserve respect for getting on the problem quickly and responsibly, but to praise them beyond that is to forget the corporation has or would of had an obligation under our laws.

A x B x C = X


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

electrik said:


> but when a product poses a risk to burn your garage or light up your airplanes cargo hold then the company must take action!


 Hell, I've had NightRiders that would burn down my garage or the back of a VW bus not properly supervised.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> Sorry, but people don't deserve the danger because they bought the cheaper light. It was the manufacturer's responsibility to provide a reasonably safe product or no product.


Lupine Stella $450
MagicShine copy $70

Does anyone _seriously_ expect the same level of quality and reliability from $70 light as a $450 light? Let alone one from China, not exactly a country renowned for its engineering excellence?


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> Sorry, but people don't deserve the danger because they bought the cheaper light. It was the manufacturer's responsibility to provide a reasonably safe product or no product.


Lupine Tesla $450
MagicShine copy $70

Does anyone _seriously_ expect the same level of quality and reliability from $70 light as a $450 light? Let alone one from China, not exactly a country renowned for its engineering excellence?


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> Lupine Tesla $450
> MagicShine copy $70
> 
> Does anyone _seriously_ expect the same level of quality and reliability from $70 light as a $450 light? Let alone one from China, not exactly a country renowned for its engineering excellence?


Hi Matt,

These batteries are being recalled due to a fire hazard, not inconsistent running times. Those are two different legal matters. The law and most people(you apparently excluded) distinguish between a product potentially injuring people or if it simply doesn't live up to the hype.

Anyways, i'm looking forward to my replacement battery.. hopefully this product will be as good as the original could have been with a little more care given on the manufacturers side.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

lamb said:


> ..... I just do not understand how people can sit here and praise how this is going down.* I was sold a defective battery pack, then a week later told to quit using it-*- for what turns out to be 8 months. Wow, great service! I understand that geoman has went out of his way to make people happy in the PAST, but unfortunately for me, this is about some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced.* I would have just wanted my money back in the first place,* but it is my understanding that the unit be unused. During that whole big week between getting the unit and finding out about the notice, I used the light. I feel as if they had to know the lights were going to be recalled, so why did they keep selling them up to the very last moment? This is complete BS in my book.


Yeah right, you were told you had a defective battery. The truth is you were told there was the possibility that the battery that came with your light was defective and so a voluntary recall was done by the vendor ( not MagicShine ). If you had kept the battery there was likely a greater than 99% chance that you had actually received a normal battery and would have got at least a couple years of use out of it.

Now if you bought something and wanted your money back, you should have returned the whole light. Since you only owned it a week that shouldn't have been a problem whither you used it or not.

It's sad to hear that people had such a long wait and that others are still waiting. Nobody knew how it was going to go down. In retrospect, I think most people would have been better just keeping the battery and being careful when they charged it but that's just my opinion ( and yes in retrospect ) so it's not a put-down. If I had been one who chose to send the battery back I likely would of just bought another battery to use while I was waiting but that's just me. Still, if mine was working I would of probably just kept it and charged it in a non-flammable container just to be on the safe side.

Now to those people who sent in their batteries and then pis*ed and moaned and said, "Now I can't ride at Night"!...to those people I have no sympathy. In comparison suppose you bought a new handlebar for your bike....A week later you get a recall and are told a replacement will be forthcoming in 6 weeks but you must send the old one back now. Now you can return the defective one and just sit on your hands till the new one comes or use the same options I mentioned before. Personally, nothing worth $45 is going to keep me from riding, even though that means I have to spend more money.

In complete retrospect, this is what people should have done....clipped the connector off the supposed defective battery and sent in as required....next, buy a new battery and wire in the old connector....Then, when the new battery FINALLY does arrive you either keep and use the other as back-up it or sell it to recoup your losses. Since this does require an effort on the part of buyer most people would of been fine if they just kept the original battery ( unless they absolutely knew theirs was defective or had very low run times ) I guess the lesson here is that getting a free replacement is not always going to be a hassle-free experience. I don't think the Geoman vendor should be blamed for bad customer service on this issue because even Geoman couldn't have predicted how all of this was going to go down once the outside people got involved.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> These batteries are being recalled due to a fire hazard, not inconsistent running times. Those are two different legal matters. The law and most people(you apparently excluded) distinguish between a product potentially injuring people or if it simply doesn't live up to the hype.
> 
> Anyways, i'm looking forward to my replacement battery.. hopefully this product will be as good as the original could have been with a little more care given on the manufacturers side.


The potential (note, potential) fire-hazard was a result of the Chinese manufacturer using cheap poor quality cells that had soft shorts and so went out of balance. This could lead to one pair of cells being overcharged (as the charger only sees total pack voltage, not individual banks) which could in turn lead to the cells venting and causing a fire. Although short runtimes and dud packs (of which there are plenty of people complaining) are related to that, they are, as you stated, not the cause of the recall. As soon as Geoman became aware of the issue, they started the recall process.

I'll also be very clear here - MagicShine or any of the other Chinese manufacturers do not give a rats behind. They will still sell these lights, their cheap ass components and flaky batteries, in their thousands simply because people want ever cheaper goods. The fact that the MagicShine is so popular and people are lining up to buy their new models, even though they still use the same failure prone components, even though one of their distributors has issued a massive battery recall, simply because they're cheap, tells me that nothing much will change, either with the manufacturer or their customers.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> The potential (note, potential) fire-hazard was a result of the Chinese manufacturer using cheap poor quality cells that had soft shorts and so went out of balance. This could lead to one pair of cells being overcharged (as the charger only sees total pack voltage, not individual banks) which could in turn lead to the cells venting and causing a fire. Although short runtimes and dud packs (of which there are plenty of people complaining) are related to that, they are, as you stated, not the cause of the recall. As soon as Geoman became aware of the issue, they started the recall process.
> 
> I'll also be very clear here - MagicShine or any of the other Chinese manufacturers do not give a rats behind. They will still sell these lights, their cheap ass components and flaky batteries, in their thousands simply because people want ever cheaper goods. The fact that the MagicShine is so popular and people are lining up to buy their new models, even though they still use the same failure prone components, even though one of their distributors has issued a massive battery recall, simply because they're cheap, tells me that nothing much will change, either with the manufacturer or their customers.


Sorry, but the fault is still geomangear's for selling the dangerous product. The battery is a dangerous product, otherwise no recall would take place. You don't slag geomangear as part of the "cheap ass flaky" problem, but lets face it... they're the dealer here and they're trying to make good because they realize they're complicit in failing to protect customers.

Also - those fancy product from caring american company - i've owned a few and been shown the door when the light failed. So, ironically this is the best service i've gotten.


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## POG (May 20, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah right, you were told you had a defective battery. The truth is you were told there was the possibility that the battery that came with your light was defective and so a voluntary recall was done by the vendor ( not MagicShine ). If you had kept the battery there was likely a greater than 99% chance that you had actually received a normal battery and would have got at least a couple years of use out of it.
> 
> Now if you bought something and wanted your money back, you should have returned the whole light. Since you only owned it a week that shouldn't have been a problem whither you used it or not.
> 
> ...


You mean I need to send them my handlebars now? This is getting ridiculous.


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

electrik said:


> Sorry, but the fault is still geomangear's for selling the dangerous product. The battery is a dangerous product, otherwise no recall would take place. You don't slag geomangear as part of the "cheap ass flaky" problem, but lets face it... they're the dealer here and they're trying to make good because they realize they're complicit in failing to protect customers.
> 
> Also - those fancy product from caring american company - i've owned a few and been shown the door when the light failed. So, ironically this is the best service i've gotten.


You think it's geo's fault for selling these packs? How could they have known they were dangerous? They discontinued sales of them as soon as they found out and initiated a recall, what more do you want from them? 
As much as you seem appreciative of what Geo is doing, it sounds like you think they were obligated to do this...which they were not.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

GTR2ebike said:


> You think it's geo's fault for selling these packs? How could they have known they were dangerous? They discontinued sales of them as soon as they found out and initiated a recall, what more do you want from them?
> As much as you seem appreciative of what Geo is doing, it sounds like you think they were obligated to do this...which they were not.


I'm not stating they _knew_ they were dangerous, that is what matt is implying.

Obviously they had an obligation to recall those battery once the problems started appearing. Please stop going on about how great they are for doing something like this. Failure to recall those faulty battery is probably the same as declaring bankruptcy(civil suits) and rolling the dice on criminal(depending on circumstance) charges for those people calling the shots.

I don't want anything from them except a replacement battery. If they're still working on the recall then I'll just wait patiently as I know it's a smaller company without bags of capital.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> I'm not stating they _knew_ they were dangerous, that is what matt is implying.


I'm implying nothing of the sort. You bought a cheap light with multiple known quality issues (aside from the now obvious dodgy battery). You appear surprised that said cheap light with quality issues now has another quality issue. I'm confused as to how you are still unable to square those two statements and instead insist on somehow laying the blame on Geoman, the distributor.

Next time, buy your cheap low quality goods direct from China and try complaining to them. See how far you get.


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

I could be wrong, but aren't recalls usually done by the manufacturer, not the retailers? in other words, if a certain brand of bike manufacturer makes frames that snap like twigs on just about everyone who owns them  wouldnt it be the manufacturer who initiates the recall, not the bike shop who sold them, online or not?

Of course its annoying to have to wait for anything(which is why i opted for the $25 upgrade), but i dont think geomangear _had_ to do anything other than stop selling magicshines once they found out they were defective, and for that matter they could have just liquidated their inventory on ebay or under a different name.

The recall in my opinion goes way above and beyond what geomangear as a retailer had to do. :thumbsup:


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

nick d said:


> *I could be wrong, but aren't recalls usually done by the manufacturer, not the retailers?* in other words, if a certain brand of bike manufacturer makes frames that snap like twigs on just about everyone who owns them  wouldnt it be the manufacturer who initiates the recall, not the bike shop who sold them, online or not?
> 
> Of course its annoying to have to wait for anything(which is why i opted for the $25 upgrade), but i dont think geomangear _had_ to do anything other than stop selling magicshines once they found out they were defective, and for that matter they could have just liquidated their inventory on ebay or under a different name.
> 
> The recall in my opinion goes way above and beyond what geomangear as a retailer had to do. :thumbsup:


Exactly:thumbsup:

All Geomangear was obligated to do was to quit selling the defective product, unlike all of the other sellers and manufacturer that continued sales.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> I'm implying nothing of the sort. You bought a cheap light with multiple known quality issues (aside from the now obvious dodgy battery). You appear surprised that said cheap light with quality issues now has another quality issue. I'm confused as to how you are still unable to square those two statements and instead insist on somehow laying the blame on Geoman, the distributor.
> 
> Next time, buy your cheap low quality goods direct from China and try complaining to them. See how far you get.


Yes, you did... don't be shy matt.

In fact you implied it again by saying people bought these battery somehow knowing they'd actually burn up endangering property and lives. I believe your euphemism was that products catching on fire is a simply a quality issue, something on the order of a burnt out bulb, right? Haha.

Geoman *absolutely*_ does_ deserve blame as the distributor of a product that is dangerous. People trying to exonerate the geoman entity as such are just blinded by "900" lumens of PR! Now, maybe if geoman slapped a sticker on, stating 1 in 500 will catch fire and burn your home down they might have a defense, but instead they stuck "QA" stickers on! Even if you slap a sticker on stating the product will kill you, they'd still be on the line since most reasonable people(the jury) don't expect flashlights to catch fire!

Further, geomangear as the entity selling these lights _on american soil_ also has specific legal and civil obligations. So, you see, the situation is quite different for them when compared to a certain hong-kong based business. Which is not to say one couldn't proceed with legal action against them either.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> Geoman *absolutely*_ does_ deserve blame as the distributor of a product that is dangerous. People trying to exonerate the geoman entity as such are just blinded by "900" lumens of PR! Now, maybe if geoman slapped a sticker on, stating 1 in 500 will catch fire and burn your home down they might have a defense, but instead they stuck "QA" stickers on! Even if you slap a sticker on stating the product will kill you, they'd still be on the line since most reasonable people(the jury) don't expect flashlights to catch fire!
> 
> Further, geomangear as the entity selling these lights _on american soil_ also has specific legal and civil obligations. So, you see, the situation is quite different for them when compared to a certain hong-kong based business. Which is not to say one couldn't proceed with legal action against them either.


When you use the word "blame", you imply pretense of malice. Since there was no known way Geoman could have known the product sold to the his buyer was defective when he sold it ( unless he could dismantle every unit sold, which would be unrealistic...) he cannot be put to blame or said to be at fault. This type of reasoning does not follow logically thought. If Geoman is at fault, then because YOU bought from him "YOU" would be equally at fault. I call this , " Good for the goose, good for the gander". If he's at fault for unknowingly buying something bad from someone else,than with all things being equal, the "Domino effect" of blame would continue to the next buyer....Now does that sound right to you? I sure hope not.

Put another way ( an analogy)...If you buy a car from someone and five years later sell it to someone else and they die in an accident because a front wheel fell off the car....Is this the fault of the seller?...Hell No! Now if it can be proved he KNEW something was wrong with the front end or that he deliberately performed work on the car that was in some way "faulty", then just maybe you have cause for blame. However malice still has to be proved.

All things electrical in nature are dangerous, although in most cases the chances of one of them causing a fire are very, very, very, very.....( I think you catch my drift ).....remote.
Just remember, it's legal to sell matches....but put in the hands of a five year old and they can burn your house down.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out something that makes no sense.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> When you use the word "blame", you imply pretense of malice. Since there was no known way Geoman could have known the product sold to the his buyer was defective when he sold it ( unless he could dismantle every unit sold, which would be unrealistic...) he cannot be put to blame or said to be at fault. This type of reasoning does not follow logically thought. If Geoman is at fault, then because YOU bought from him "YOU" would be equally at fault. I call this , " Good for the goose, good for the gander". If he's at fault for unknowingly buying something bad from someone else,than with all things being equal, the "Domino effect" of blame would continue to the next buyer....Now does that sound right to you? I sure hope not.


Proving deliberate malice is not required to blame somebody for an event. That would be the worst case - if this was premeditated by geoman that the catastrophic failure rate would be quite so high but they didn't care and sold anyways. I doubt that is the case.

However, things don't end there.

Blame is assigned everyday in cases where there is no deliberate malice. For instance, there is also sheer incompetence. So does somebody selling a product that unexpectedly injures people deserve blame? Yes. Do the manufacturers also deserve blame? I'm going to say yes, but to a lesser degree. If you've been in the industry of sub/manufacturing anything you'd know that suppliers like this chinese company aren't the ones calling the shots - they are at the very bottom of the pyramid. If the geoman says battery ok - battery ok. Shirking the buck off on the peons at a factory is not responsible management since their choices are very narrow with regards to quality! Lastly blaming the customer does not make sense, the person buying the product has almost NO insight into it's manufacture. So we are left with the middle-man of which geoman was/is one.

Personally, I still fault geoman for selling something that was unexpectedly dangerous, if simply because diligence was not undertaken on their part in understanding the battery. Maybe you think that is unfair or that i'm an irresponsible customer(a hypocritical stance at best), but that is life - Lesson learned, now geoman is on to products which are strictly manufactured and in a way the situation has corrected itself with minimal damages - except to some pocket books.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> Proving deliberate malice is not required to blame somebody for an event. That would be the worst case ... .Blame is assigned everyday in cases where there is no deliberate malice..


True, but even in cases where there is no proof of malice there must be proper evidence to support a claim of fault or final responsibility. In the case of Geoman that criteria has not been met as I see it. I see no evidence leading me to believe he should be made the scapegoat for a manufacturing flaw in a limited number of products of which had already been sold in the thousands to the general public and that without overwhelming evidence of a high catastrophic failure rate. ( Not to mention other vendors who also sold the same products without too many problems ) Since the company that sells the Li-ion cells also sells to other manufacturers who make other electronic/electrical products, the same batteries are ( or were ) likely sold and used with many other products as well. Because of that and because there are few reported incidences of Li-ion failures I would not be so bold as to assign fault to a middle-man vendor just selling his wares....but that is my take on it.



electrik said:


> .... For instance, there is also sheer incompetence. So does somebody selling a product that unexpectedly injures people deserve blame? Yes. .


I beg to differ. In my book that would depend on the circumstances and need I even say, circumstances can vary a lot. This is where we differ. The assigning of incompetence ( or blame ) is not something I deem to be taken so frivolously. Since the government has not appeared to have intervened in the issue ( and yes I did check some time ago ) and the product(s) continue to be sold ( by very many ) I cannot condone putting blame or or tag of incompetence on the Geoman vendor. I guess that makes my ruler for judging blame/incompetence a little larger than yours. To each their own. In the mean time I will continue to buy from him until I see good reason to do otherwise.


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## FatNoob (Aug 3, 2010)

electrik said:


> So does somebody selling a product that unexpectedly injures people deserve blame? Yes. Do the manufacturers also deserve blame? I'm going to say yes, but to a lesser degree.


Forget about the "Court of Law" for a few minutes, because that is a place where over priced lawyers use words to take advantage of the rest of us:

So lets put this into terms we can all understand... if you buy a bicycle and go out and get hurt on that bike because say a bearing failed/a pedal broke/ a spoke broke/ a seat rail bent/ or any number of other items...

You are saying that it is fault of the Bike Shop that you got hurt?... It is not the manufacturer of the bike or the manufacturer of the bearings/or other parts? and most importantly it is NOT YOUR FAULT that you chose to do something that had risk (as all of life's activities do)?... Really?

Please don't buy anything from any place I shop!

One big problem in our society is that we blame our un-happiness on someone else... And we feel they need to pay for it.

Most of our un-happiness is our own fault... Learn to be happy with what you have and who you are... Or learn to be happy with the pursuit of getting what you (think) you want and making yourself a better person.

Things and other people will never truly make you happy (only you can make yourself happy).

And btw I will take sides... The small business is getting a bad wrap for doing the right thing, because we want to blame someone else...

Who is the one that searched out a CHEAP light to buy to begin with? You must know that everything has a "cost" you buy a light that is that cheap and you need to expect something is not up to par... In this case the battery cells were mis-matched... This is a minor detail, order a few cells and make your own pack or be patient and wait for your replacement battery.

If you order hot coffee then, spill that hot coffee on yourself, in your own car. It is your own fault you got burned, not the person/company that made the coffee.

Are there times when it is someone else's fault? Yes, but way less than we like to believe. Are there companies that ignore problems? Yes. Are there companies that cover up problems? Yes. Are there companies that need to blamed/sued? Yes.

But GeoManGear did NOT ignore the problem, in fact they are fixing someone else's (the manufacturer's) problem as if it is their own. Do they deserve to be blamed? I don't think so. Are things moving slower than we all would like? Yes, much slower but that should be blamed on the bureaucracy that our society has created. I believe if we read the documentation that about the recall, it explains the process, most of which GeoManGear has very little control over. And I would be willing to bet that no one wants this finished faster than folks at GeoManGear.

GeoManGear is doing a "retailer" issued recall at great cost to the bottom line because it is the right thing to do&#8230; I have never seen a retailer do their own recall which is actually the responsibility of the manufacturer, but you want to blame the retailer?


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

A big +1!!!!!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> True, but even in cases where there is no proof of malice there must be proper evidence to support a claim of fault or final responsibility. In the case of Geoman that criteria has not been met as I see it. I see no evidence leading me to believe he should be made the scapegoat for a manufacturing flaw in a limited number of products of which had already been sold in the thousands to the general public and that without overwhelming evidence of a high catastrophic failure rate. ( Not to mention other vendors who also sold the same products without too many problems ) Since the company that sells the Li-ion cells also sells to other manufacturers who make other electronic/electrical products, the same batteries are ( or were ) likely sold and used with many other products as well. Because of that and because there are few reported incidences of Li-ion failures I would not be so bold as to assign fault to a middle-man vendor just selling his wares....but that is my take on it.
> 
> I beg to differ. In my book that would depend on the circumstances and need I even say, circumstances can vary a lot. This is where we differ. The assigning of incompetence ( or blame ) is not something I deem to be taken so frivolously. Since the government has not appeared to have intervened in the issue ( and yes I did check some time ago ) and the product(s) continue to be sold ( by very many ) I cannot condone putting blame or or tag of incompetence on the Geoman vendor. I guess that makes my ruler for judging blame/incompetence a little larger than yours. To each their own. In the mean time I will continue to buy from him until I see good reason to do otherwise.


I _blame_ geoman, and stop trying to shove malice in my sentences. You're the guy who thinks blame requires malice. Don't forget that.

You don't have any more evidence than us. What was the catastrophic failure rate? How much property damage? How many visit to magicshine factory to inspect production? What was involved in doing this "geoman" QC inspection? Would the government have intervened if geoman didn't volunteer to recall? Is geoman under litigation from a customer?

*Geoman was incomptent in assessing his product. I blame them.*

To state otherwise is hogwash.

The Buck stops on Geoman's door.

If you don't think the company turning a profit on exploding batteries they never looked at doesn't deserve blame you're messed!

Turning a blind eye on their part to the battery source is not an excuse from blame! Keep trying to push plausible deniability on behalf of geoman - i bet your battery didn't fail!


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

FatNoob said:


> Forget about the "Court of Law" for a few minutes, because that is a place where over priced lawyers use words to take advantage of the rest of us:
> 
> So lets put this into terms we can all understand... if you buy a bicycle and go out and get hurt on that bike because say a bearing failed/a pedal broke/ a spoke broke/ a seat rail bent/ or any number of other items...
> 
> ...


Even xmart recalls bicycles that fail and hurt people, even though they're from cheap source!! Do you know why? Because if they didn't recall the bicycle they'd be in a sling!



FatNoob said:


> One big problem in our society is that we blame our un-happiness on someone else... And we feel they need to pay for it.
> 
> Most of our un-happiness is our own fault... Learn to be happy with what you have and who you are... Or learn to be happy with the pursuit of getting what you (think) you want and making yourself a better person.
> 
> ...


This just boggles my mind. Small business is the same cut-throat industry as big business. Frig.

Learn to be happy when your battery catches fire? Sounds idiotic to me.



FatNoob said:


> Who is the one that searched out a CHEAP light to buy to begin with? You must know that everything has a "cost" you buy a light that is that cheap and you need to expect something is not up to par... In this case the battery cells were mis-matched... This is a minor detail, order a few cells and make your own pack or be patient and wait for your replacement battery.
> 
> If you order hot coffee then, spill that hot coffee on yourself, in your own car. It is your own fault you got burned, not the person/company that made the coffee.


So it's your fault when the lady at mcdonalds hands you coffee that is 200 degrees F at the drive-through window and you instantly drop it scalding your gentials? That is the case you're referring to.

It's her fault for seeking out cheap mcdonalds coffee at the spot? This is the type of thing you're saying.

Mcdonalds LOST that case, btw.



> Are there times when it is someone else's fault? Yes, but way less than we like to believe. Are there companies that ignore problems? Yes. Are there companies that cover up problems? Yes. Are there companies that need to blamed/sued? Yes.
> 
> But GeoManGear did NOT ignore the problem, in fact they are fixing someone else's (the manufacturer's) problem as if it is their own. Do they deserve to be blamed? I don't think so. Are things moving slower than we all would like? Yes, much slower but that should be blamed on the bureaucracy that our society has created. I believe if we read the documentation that about the recall, it explains the process, most of which GeoManGear has very little control over. And I would be willing to bet that no one wants this finished faster than folks at GeoManGear.
> 
> GeoManGear is doing a "retailer" issued recall at great cost to the bottom line because it is the right thing to do&#8230; I have never seen a retailer do their own recall which is actually the responsibility of the manufacturer, but you want to blame the retailer?


Geoman did not ignore the problem once it was happening for x months, but they sure didn't do anything to prevent the problem from occurring! Sometimes you gamble on the bottom-line, act undiligently and you get people, like your customers, hurt! It's your fault when you do that and owning up and fixing the problem is the only way out. If geoman want's to sue his supplier that is his issue and if you want to sue geoman that is yours. This is how the chain of responsibility works.


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

electrik said:


> *Geoman was incomptent in assessing his product. I blame them.*
> 
> To state otherwise is hogwash.
> 
> The Buck stops on Geoman's door.


Toyota Motor Company, bad brakes, floormats whatever -who issued the recall? The individual dealers? Was it the dealers responsibility to dissect the vehicles and double-check the work done by Toyotas engineers?

Do the big online MTB retailers or local bike shops all dissect the batteries from big name lights? -Some well known brands (wont name names or ill get banned LOL) have had battery recalls as well. Is it the responsibility of those online retailers to issue recalls as well? What about the bike shops that sold them? Or was it the manufacturer?



electrik said:


> If you don't think the company turning a profit on exploding batteries they never looked at doesn't deserve blame you're messed!


I seriously doubt they will be making a profit for some time giving away free batteries to almost everyone they sold a light to...



electrik said:


> - i bet your battery didn't fail!


For the record I have purchased 2 magicshine lights from Geomangear, one battery failed prior to the recall and it was replaced within 3 days. Now both lights batteries are covered under the recall and i have opted to go with the upgrade.

In noot trying to pick a fight, but I suspect rather than trying to force a company in China to do something they would never do -issue the recall themselves- Geomangear did the right thing by its customers and took matters into their own hands.

And should we really let our legal systems overly litigious track record become our barometer for right and wrong, because lets face it, some of the lawsuits people win are just ridiculous...


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

electrik said:


> Even xmart recalls bicycles that fail and hurt people, even though they're from cheap source!! Do you know why? Because if they didn't recall the bicycle they'd be in a sling!
> 
> This just boggles my mind. Small business is the same cut-throat industry as big business. Frig.
> 
> ...


*So when did this thread go from Has anyone received their GeoMan recall replacement batteries yet! :thumbsup: To the Peoples frikin court.
Give it a rest you are starting to embarrass yourself stay on topic or go to "I want to be a internet lawyer website":ciappa:.

Who gives a crap what Geomans liability's were he has resolved this issue and is making all his customers whole, If it was not for an act of nature this recall business would be over by now. to the tune of over $750.000+ dollars they should have filed bankruptcy and washed their hands of this issue, 
But instead they decided to take it in the shorts for I what have to assume its going to take more than a few years to come out of this and be profitable again..
I myself will support a company that stands behind the product they sell.
Major Props Geoman:thumbsup::thumbsup:*


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Rakuman said:


> *So when did this thread go from Has anyone received their GeoMan recall replacement batteries yet! :thumbsup: To the Peoples frikin court.
> Give it a rest you are starting to embarrass yourself stay on topic or go to "I want to be a internet lawyer website":ciappa:.
> 
> *


*

It's people's frigging court because some people(consumers) seem to think geoman isn't to blame for selling shitty batteries.

I don't want to be an internet lawyer, thanks, but i know what i see and that is geoman recalling the battery and it sure as **** isn't because he's your benevolent saint.*


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

nick d said:


> In noot trying to pick a fight, but I suspect rather than trying to force a company in China to do something they would never do -issue the recall themselves- Geomangear did the right thing by its customers and took matters into their own hands.
> 
> And should we really let our legal systems overly litigious track record become our barometer for right and wrong, because lets face it, some of the lawsuits people win are just ridiculous...


If the Chinese company wasn't going to bail out the product, then geoman must bail himself out, declare bankruptcy or fight in court against customers. I'm sure somebody at geoman knew the likelihood of getting a foreign company with no direct legal impetus to remunerate them in case of product failure.

However all those facts really don't resolve the issue of blame for being a middle-man selling incendiary bombs in the first place! That is the blame and geoman has already accepted responsibility for, by doing the recall, so it's not like we're even debating an ongoing issue.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

electrik said:


> If the Chinese company wasn't going to bail out the product, then geoman must bail himself out, declare bankruptcy or fight in court against customers. I'm sure somebody at geoman knew the likelihood of getting a foreign company with no direct legal impetus to remunerate them in case of product failure.
> 
> However all those facts really don't resolve the issue of blame for being a middle-man selling incendiary bombs in the first place! That is the blame and geoman has already accepted responsibility for, by doing the recall, so it's not like we're even debating an ongoing issue.


Wow you finally get it:thumbsup:
You are beating a very dead horse


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

electrik-
Dude, do you have a working light right now?


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## sammer (Jun 10, 2006)

electrik said:


> they're the dealer here and they're trying to make good because they realize they're complicit in failing to protect customers
> 
> However all those facts really don't resolve the issue of blame for being a middle-man selling incendiary bombs in the first place!
> 
> ...


huh?

You talk in circles, you should be an internet lawyer.

Geoman is not to blame for selling a product he thought was safe.(reasonably safe)
He's the only distributor that has undertaken any kind of action to protect his customers (and himself of course).
And has done so in a timely manner.

If you have such a problem with geomangear don't buy from them.
Or perhaps your just bitter because you did buy from them and are still waiting for your replacement battery to arrive.
Either way STFU.

Thanks,

sam

And yes, I'm still *patiently* waiting for my $25 upgrade if anyone cares! :thumbsup:


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

You know, I don't mind a good lively discussion every now and then as long as it's brief. However this "Good GM vs.Bad GM " debate has gone as far as it can under the circumstance.. Once I detect circular reasoning, non sequitur logic coupled with a whiff of obsessive-compulsiveness, I can pretty much read the writing on the wall. Sorry for stirring up this witches brew folks. Me's-a is a back-stroking out of this mess.... ....And now back to your regularly scheduled "Who got their battery yet", thread...:thumbsup:


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## FatNoob (Aug 3, 2010)

electrik said:


> Mcdonalds LOST that case, btw.


This is why I said forget about court of law... If that is where you get your judgment of what is right and wrong or good and bad then you need to find a new yard stick. Some over priced lawyers 'selected' a group of 12 people that they thought would be open at pointing blame at someone else.

The lady ordered HOT coffee that was NOT too hot for the person who made the coffee to hold. She got the coffee in her car, and then put that coffee between her legs, of-course it spilled. Maybe it was the car manufacturers fault for making a car with too few cup holders? Maybe it was the fault of person who made her pants not 'water proof'? Maybe it was the fault of the company that made the cup that was not SPILL PROOF? But it is NOT the fault of the person who spilled the coffee on theirself... It is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE's fault.

McD's had been selling coffee for decades to millions before this problem. I blame McD's lawyers for believing in modern society's court system and the pool of peer's (of which you are a part of). See so many of that group that have enough common sense to see personal responsibility end up getting out of jury duty in order to take care of their responsibilities, so that leaves the pool loaded with under educated, lazy, out of work people on jury duty.

And finally... How many light sets have been sold? and how many have actually had this problem? I do not know the numbers but know that is a very, very small percentage that have caused a fire so lets just say it is 0.1% (Guessing even less than that but lets use it for a starting point). So to get 1 fire he would have to buy and TEST (Lots of man hours), 1000 lights. Now he able to find 1 fire in their test... So now they must do the test again and again to make sure it was the battery that caused the fire. So now you are looking at 2k or 3k lights tested to cause 2 to 3 fires if you are lucky enough to get a truly random sampling... So if this is what you are saying a retailer must do... Then I hope you like shoping at Walmart because they are the only ones with enough money to do that... BUT I know they do not do that, they just know they have enough money to make the problem go away once it appears.

How many Irons/Toasters/curling irons/coffee makers have caused fires? You can blame someone else all you want for those fires, but when those items where purchased the person should have known that they could cause a fire and if they did not it is their own fault (legally or not).


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

note how none of electrik's inane vitriol is pointed at the company that actually manufactured the product?

sounds like a case of "I made a mistake, then I made another mistake, now I'm going to blame anybody but myself so I never have to take responsibility for my actions". Time to grow up and grow a pair.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

jugdish said:


> electrik-
> Dude, do you have a working light right now?


No. Hanging here till I get my battery back.



Cat-man-do said:


> You know, I don't mind a good lively discussion every now and then as long as it's brief. However this "Good GM vs.Bad GM " debate has gone as far as it can under the circumstance.. Once I detect circular reasoning, non sequitur logic coupled with a whiff of obsessive-compulsiveness, I can pretty much read the writing on the wall. Sorry for stirring up this witches brew folks. Me's-a is a back-stroking out of this mess.... ....And now back to your regularly scheduled "Who got their battery yet", thread...:thumbsup:


It's just weak name calling if one's big words like non sequitur aren't supported by an example. If you can point out any circular reasoning on my behalf i would honestly like to see it. The only think i suspect I may be guilt of is not stated all my premises, some of them rely on people accepting social norms.



FatNoob said:


> This is why I said forget about court of law... If that is where you get your judgment of what is right and wrong or good and bad then you need to find a new yard stick. Some over priced lawyers 'selected' a group of 12 people that they thought would be open at pointing blame at someone else.
> 
> The lady ordered HOT coffee that was NOT too hot for the person who made the coffee to hold. She got the coffee in her car, and then put that coffee between her legs, of-course it spilled. Maybe it was the car manufacturers fault for making a car with too few cup holders? Maybe it was the fault of person who made her pants not 'water proof'? Maybe it was the fault of the company that made the cup that was not SPILL PROOF? But it is NOT the fault of the person who spilled the coffee on theirself... It is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE's fault.
> 
> ...


The problem wasn't that the coffee was simply hot, it was that it was REALLY FRIGGIN HOT and the employee failed to protect the customer! They lost. The battery's faults weren't the caused by something these customers did to the battery, they came defective from geoman and magicshine. Lastly the risk is defined not only by the rate of failure but also by the consequences of failure. So you see the risk for being burned by coffee or being burned alive in your sleep are very different so that has to be taken into account when evaluating the actual odds of the event happening.



mattthemuppet said:


> note how none of electrik's inane vitriol is pointed at the company that actually manufactured the product?
> 
> sounds like a case of "I made a mistake, then I made another mistake, now I'm going to blame anybody but myself so I never have to take responsibility for my actions". Time to grow up and grow a pair.


I have a pair, thanks. That is why i'm going to stick to the fact geoman deserves blame for selling the light. Why, matt, did they stick their own QC sticker on there and claim their light was better than a certain hong kong company's if geoman made no claims about the light?

So, please, point out my original mistake.

If you want to start a thread that isn't about geoman's recall go ahead... what i'm writing certainly isn't inane vitriol. If people or society didn't stand up and create the expectation that geoman should do the recall then people like you who slander our demands for accountability as unfair "inane vitriol" would get nothing but even more irresponsibility. You'd have to "learn to be happy" with flaming batteries as another poster was so readily willing to be.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

OK. Stop with the negative rep flaming. I've gotten some anonymous rep(snake) comments for pretty _politely_ speaking my mind, it is too bad that some special people here think geoman deserves no blame. That honestly boggles my mind.

You negative rep zealots can feel free to seemingly grovel at geoman's feet for a battery and defend your abuser - I'll sit by quietly bemused and leave you to it - I wouldn't want to endanger your chances by angering the Gods.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> I have a pair, thanks. That is why i'm going to stick to the fact geoman deserves blame for selling the light. Why, matt, did they stick their own QC sticker on there and claim their light was better than a certain hong kong company's if geoman made no claims about the light?


QC for a distributor = checking each light to make sure it works before making it available for sale. You're somehow suggesting that Geoman should have done a multi-thousand hour run test on several hundred batteries to make sure that the batteries they are distributing meet a certain quality standard? A) that is what the manufacturer should do (ie. not Geoman, in case you missed that point), B) if they did do that, you can be certain that your $90 light would no longer cost $90 and C) even if they did spend all that time and money on testing the batteries before selling them AND didn't add that cost onto the light, there is still *NO GUARANTEE* that the *MANUFACTURER* (ie. not Geoman, in case you missed that point) would not change the battery spec after that fact, resulting in exactly the same problem that all of this "QC" that you imply should have been done would have addressed.

Can that get any clearer? Any points I'm missing there?



electrik said:


> So, please, point out my original mistake.


Original mistake - mistakenly believing that a light that cost ~25% of an equivalent name brand light would be of the same quality as that name brand light

2nd mistake - cheaping out and buying a cheap light, which, by the time you bought it, had several known issues (and, given that I'm 100% sure you're going to object to this, they are: weak connectors, that are prone to having internal connection breaks, underspecced current sense resistors that are unable to adequately dissipate the heat they generate, battery packs with short life spans, burnt out LED dies (1-3)).

3rd mistake - not returning your lightly used light for a full refund as soon as the recall was issued

Most people would now would now say "well that sucks, I should have returned it when I could, but at least I'm getting a better battery out of it". A few people would blame the manufacturer for making a shoddy product, in spite of the low price. You seem bent on apportioning blame to a distributor that's taking an enormous financial hit in order to set straight a problem caused by the manufacturer.



electrik said:


> what i'm writing certainly isn't inane vitriol.


well, I'm not alone here, I don't see anyone else backing you up



electrik said:


> If people or society didn't stand up and create the expectation that geoman should do the recall then people like you who slander our demands for accountability as unfair "inane vitriol" would get nothing but even more irresponsibility. You'd have to "learn to be happy" with flaming batteries as another poster was so readily willing to be.


technically it's libel, as it's written. Slander is for oral insults. And you can't insult a demand, only a person. I think inane is about right for what you've written.

Now, what I think you should do is stand up to Geoman's perfidy and, in true American spirit, stand up for your rights by engaging a class action lawyer. Then, you can get your $90 back, teach society a lesson in standing up against these willfully fly-by-night operators and shut down Geoman for good. That'll really teach those Chinese manufacturers to make better lights!

(oh ^ was sarcasm, in case you hadn't figured it out for yourself)


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## FatNoob (Aug 3, 2010)

electrik said:


> I have a pair, thanks. That is why i'm going to stick to the fact geoman deserves blame for selling the light.


But you deserve NO BLAME WHAT SO EVER for buying that light and ingoring the commonly known problems with batteries?

High performance batteries have had issues like this for years (from cell phone batteries, laptop batteries, to LIPO batteries for RC cars and Airsoft). So the risk is a commonly known issue and you should protect yourself by charging only when you are awake, present and in a safe place. If you just Google "battery catches fire" you will find this has been an issue for many products and many companies... Even names such as Apple and Dell have had this issue&#8230; And I am sure they TESTED their products before releasing them&#8230; The real world will always out "torture test" a product compared to a lab.

So if a fire was caused by a battery that you own then I would say you are more to blame than the retailer who sold it to you. You looked for and purchased a cheap product that is commonly known to start fires then used that product without the proper precautions... So really whose fault is it?

Just as if I purchase Round-Up then leave it out where a child can get a hold of it... Is it Round-Up's fault that a child got sick or is it Wal-World's fault for selling it to me? or is My Fault for not respecting the possible and commonly known problems... It is surely NOT MY FAULT because I AM PERFECT just CALL ME JESUS!

Remember if you had purchased this light from any number of other vendors then you still would not yet be notified of even a possible problem... But GeoManGear is the bad company because they notified you and offered to replace your battery free of charge?

Again... GeoMan sold you a BRIGHT light for CHEAP... Which is exactly what you asked for and purchased but it is NOT YOUR FAULT... It is GEOMAN's fault for giving you what you asked for!

Next time you order something you better send it back if it is what you ordered!


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

electrik said:


> I've gotten some anonymous rep(snake) comments for pretty _politely_ speaking my mind


thats too funny, how do you find these comments? id love to read them, could be the best thing to come out of this thread in the past 2 days


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

nick d said:


> thats too funny, how do you find these comments? id love to read them, could be the best thing to come out of this thread in the past 2 days


You can only read those left for you. Look around for a couple minutes in your account and you'll find them. It'd be great if you could read other's reps though.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

FatNoob said:


> This is why I said forget about court of law... If that is where you get your judgment of what is right and wrong or good and bad then you need to find a new yard stick. Some over priced lawyers 'selected' a group of 12 people that they thought would be open at pointing blame at someone else.
> 
> The lady ordered HOT coffee that was NOT too hot for the person who made the coffee to hold. She got the coffee in her car, and then put that coffee between her legs, of-course it spilled. Maybe it was the car manufacturers fault for making a car with too few cup holders? Maybe it was the fault of person who made her pants not 'water proof'? Maybe it was the fault of the company that made the cup that was not SPILL PROOF? But it is NOT the fault of the person who spilled the coffee on theirself... It is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE's fault.
> ..


Sorry..have to call you out on this. The lady in question received 3rd degree burns and had to have her labia cosmetically repaired. The coffee was served near boiling point 180-190 far. She did not walk into the store. She was a passenger in the car. She asked for her medical expenses only, which McD refused to pay. McDonald's representatives lied to the court and jury about the existence of other claims, but documents showing that they knew of more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992 were admitted in to evidence. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to the plaintiff. McDonald's ignored a request from the Shriner's Burn Institute in Cincinnati to turn down the temperature of its coffee. The punitive damage award was equal to ONE DAY of McD's profits from selling coffee.

Stop believing all the political hype about lawsuits and actually go read what happened yourself.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> Now, what I think you should do is stand up to Geoman's perfidy and, in true American spirit, stand up for your rights by engaging a class action lawyer. Then, you can get your $90 back, teach society a lesson in standing up against these willfully fly-by-night operators and shut down Geoman for good. That'll really teach those Chinese manufacturers to make better lights!
> 
> (oh ^ was sarcasm, in case you hadn't figured it out for yourself)


I dunno who is STILL leaving bad rep messages for me(as if this argument was a ****ing election) me, if it is still you, matt, go away! If it's random geoman zealots go AWAY.

Re your comments in the neg :

I'm not saying it's poor geoman's* total *fault after all he was_ just_ a chinese company's ass puppet and got totally unsuspectingly played hard.  Really, it is a wonder i feel like blaming him after sleeping with that damn incendiary bomb in my room. :madmax:

To the other poster comparing my battery to a can of raid. I at least know what RAID does thanks and the battery was not supposed to pose that type of danger! At least i'd hope not. DO you know how many battery i've owned and how many are recalled for it's proclivity for catching fire? This magicshine battery is the only one!

Yes, if my property was damaged or I was injured i would definitively be taking geomangear to court. What is so strange about that? Why that is worthy of mockery gives me a clue to why matt is here - trolling perhaps?

I'm also laughing at you matt, for stating geoman's QC testing had nothing todo with safety. The statement, now gone, was that geoman was going above and beyond a simple testing. Of course, unless you work at geoman you wouldn't know what was actually done there. You didn't work there... did you?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> ....I'm not saying it's poor Geoman's* total *fault after all he was_ just_ a* Chinese company's ass puppet*....


:nono:...Shame, shame....me detects name calling...:ihih:...Just to let you know, that is against the Forum rules but...please continue your ranting at will. I'm sure no one will mind. :smilewinkgrin:


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## w01fy (May 14, 2010)

interesting thread, its this sort of thing that made me buy a lumicycle double head unit at about 8 times the cost of the deal extreme, its only about 4 times as bright, but the customer service was great!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> See this thread if you want to discuss the relative merits or processes or civilly legal obligations of a recall ( this actual thread )...(which will be heavily moderated: no name calling, profanity or trolling per the MTBR guidelines)


*Electri*k, lucky you. It seems the moderators have decided to give you your own thread to rant on. Comment as you see fit ( FWIW ). If you didn't already know, *rockcrusher* is one of the moderators. If you wish you may thank him personally.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> :nono:...Shame, shame....me detects name calling...:ihih:...Just to let you know, that is against the Forum rules but...please continue your ranting at will. I'm sure no one will mind. :smilewinkgrin:


We are not exactly talking about a forum member are we? Unless we're going to count corporate shill accounts which are blatantly astroturfing this board in front of the moderator's eyes.

note: It's also hilarious that i didn't notice the moderator politely moved this to another thread!!! :lol::lol: O lordie AND resubscribed me to the damn thing.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> *Electri*k, lucky you. It seems the moderators have decided to give you your own thread to rant on. Comment as you see fit ( FWIW ). If you didn't already know, *rockcrusher* is one of the moderators. If you wish you may thank him personally.


It is all a day late and a dollar short as i've already said most of what upset me about geoman and the sycophantic reactions that went on afterwards.

I'm sure the real thoughtful guys will continue to neg me, i've done my best to explain it all as I see it, but some people absolutely refuse to look their false gift horse right in the mouth.


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## givemefive (May 26, 2007)

Just buy another freaking battery and get on with it. When the replacement comes in you'll have a great new one... 

And harping on about dangerous batteries? Jesus have you not followed the news at all the past 15 years? li-on batteries sometimes blowup...

We're talking about 3 in 22,000 incidents... no 'testing' is going to find that, sorry.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

*SHHHHHH! maybe if we don't egg him :ihih: on.. he will take his ball and go home:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:*


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

mattthemuppet said:


> I'm implying nothing of the sort. You bought a cheap light with multiple known quality issues (aside from the now obvious dodgy battery). You appear surprised that said cheap light with quality issues now has another quality issue. I'm confused as to how you are still unable to square those two statements and instead insist on somehow laying the blame on Geoman, the distributor.
> 
> Next time, buy your cheap low quality goods direct from China and try complaining to them. See how far you get.


+1 people do not want to take responsibility for their dumbness; YOU are the responsible not Geoman; YOU are the one that wanted the cheapest crap no matter what; anything but lumens.YOU Didn't do his homework before buying (like all of us: how's its reputation, customer service, reliability, components, heat transference, quality and price) YOU didn't care; also you didn't care that they were stealing a design but you want YOUR light so it doesn't matter.
What makes you think that they will allow a company to clearly steal a design and also care about YOU
You only have the [email protected] to feel entitled to ANYTHING....go buy yourself a battery and stop crying like you spent on something with support like many brands around here and actually service, and don't have a bad price either!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

givemefive said:


> ....And harping on about dangerous batteries? Jesus have you not followed the news at all the past 15 years? li-on batteries sometimes blowup...
> 
> We're talking about 3 in 22,000 incidents... no 'testing' is going to find that, sorry.


Yes, I agree but to be more accurate you left out some important facts...When you said, "Li-ion batteries sometimes blow-up...", it would of been more accurate to say, " Under certain circumstances, Li-ion batteries can vent or flame out". Or to put another way, " Li-ion batteries can vent or flame-out if mishandled. Since the cells have safety measures built in designed to prevent explosion, saying that they can sometimes blow-up is equating them to explosives which is not as accurate.

Now about the "3 in 22,000". I'm assuming you are referring to the Geoman reported incidents vs. his personal sales(?) Not to mention, although there are no reports or figures to support it, I would think the World-wide sales figure vs. catastrophic failure ( flame-out ) would likely be much higher. For the time being though let's go with the "3 in 22,000".

What do we actually know about the 3 incidents in question? If you think about it, we really only know what Geoman has told us and that is not much. I'm not faulting Geoman here because he has to protect his interest and I'm sure he is not allowed to disclose the particulars. Regardless, how do we know whither or not these three people knew how to handle their batteries? How do we know that their own carelessness ( or lack of knowledge ) didn't cause the reported fires?? Have any of us seen actual reports from the investigating Fire Marshal's that specifically put blame on a MS battery flame-out?? What if one ( or some ) of the people who reported fires are lying and are just trying to bilk money from their insurance company?? *The fact of the matter is, " We really don't know". There are too many unanswerable questions here.* I figure Geoman did the recall just to cover his own butt. Whither the threat was legitimate or imminent, it was likely something he couldn't afford to take a chance on. He knows ( as well as we do ) that there are certain Jerk-wads out there that LIVE to litigate stuff like this. That's the problem with being successful in the USA. As soon as people see you making honest money, there are jerk-wads waiting in the wings trying to figure a way to take it from you. Need I say, nothing more dangerous than a jerk-wad with a gun or with a lawyer.

With all this in perspective, if Geoman put a link on his web site asking for donations to a "legal defense fund", I would have no problem throwing some bucks his way. *Electrik*, this is not about being _"sycophantic"_ to use your words. It is about believing in the *American way of life and that means supporting the small business man ( who has to fight everyday against the big boy companies to make a living ). Even more so when that small business man is well liked and has a good track record.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

electrik said:


> So it's your fault when the lady at mcdonalds hands you coffee that is 200 degrees F at the drive-through window and you instantly drop it scalding your gentials? That is the case you're referring to.
> .


nope, to the person who got the coffea that the lady gave him was hot and even when she told him; since he is not responsible anymore, just instead of dropping it on the street, he managed to keep holding it while burning himself just to try to burn his genital so he can sue them


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

electrik said:


> I dunno who is STILL leaving bad rep messages for me(as if this argument was a ****ing election) me, if it is still you, matt, go away! If it's random geoman zealots go AWAY.
> 
> Re your comments in the neg :
> 
> ...


I haven't left you bad rep. Can't be bothered, life's too short. Someone did neg rep me though, which was pretty funny. Besides, I judge people by their actions, not some little coloured square next to their name 

I just think we have a bad case of internet rage here. If there was a definition, it'd go something like:

- random person has a problem with something
- problem gets posted on an internet forum, with lots of CAPS and a hefty dose of whining
- random person either a) gets support of forum, leading to a virtuous circle of CAPS and whining or b) finds that no-one agrees with him, leading to a destructive circle of CAPS, whining and accusations of being a corporate shill directed as those disagreeing
- In case of b), random person will never admit any responsibility or change his/ her opinion. Instead, he/ she will simply shout louder and make ever more irrational accusations against those that disagree with him/ her


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## Baja Designs (Aug 3, 2010)

It is about believing in the *American way of life and that means supporting the small business man ( who has to fight everyday against the big boy companies to make a living ). Even more so when that small business man is well liked and has a good track record.[/QUOTE]

Good stuff Mr. Man-Do!

I am bummed that Electrik hasn't gone night riding in nine months for lack of a battery, that's a lot of lost time. Ouch!

Electrik, email me and I'll loan you a Strykr until your new battery arrives - if you'd like.

Shannon Scott
Baja Designs Inc.
([email protected])


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## find_bruce (May 8, 2011)

BajaDesignsShannon said:


> Electrik, email me and I'll loan you a Strykr until your new battery arrives - if you'd like.


Now that is just mean Shannon - giving the guy a taste of your lights and then making him go back to an MS. 

Don't mind me, I am just dirty that you are offering free beer at places that are waaaaay to far for me to travel to.

If it's not too much trouble could you set up a free beer & light stand on my commute route?  I mean you have always wanted to come to Australia haven't you. Don't worry your bright lights will protect you from the drop bears


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

first of kudos to Magicshine, to get some decent lights going on the trial.
second, you get what you pay for 
for me, since batteries do crap out, I'd like to use my own charger,
and like to be able to run to home-depot, and have a backup up and running if needed.
As such a MS, Niterider, etc, with proprietary batteries , voltage, circuit don't count.....
for consumers, ehm, yeah, like to get some AA, leave them in the chargers for days and weeks at the time, not to mention the butter fingers, dropping those AA batteries, multiple time on the hardwood floor, occasionally on the carpet, and then scream bloody murder, when that Batterie finally turns into a crispy critter, to scream warranty.
granted, the charger was a dud, the cells, not top notch, and the conditions where it where used, 
harsh to put it mildly . per statistics, not out of the ordinary.
Nicad's where hazardous, Nimh even got hot during regular charging, Li-ion got more powerfull, 
Lithium Polymer, you'd better not screw-up, or have a mild amnesia about that little butter-finger incident, before you put it the charger.
Batteries are power devices, treat it like a gun, know what you doing, and never leave it unattended,
especially when charging, And never use it , if there is a doubt, that it might be damaged. 
every seen a NimH cell turn into Shrapnel ? good, since usually not all the pieces of Shrapnel be removed from the body.
just my 2mah, and I'd like to charge mine at 2C Rob


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

rschultz101 said:


> and never leave it unattended,
> especially when charging, And never use it , if there is a doubt, that it might be damaged.


 ^This.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

After months of use I figured there was a pretty slim chance my pack would burst into flames so I just kept using it, recall be damned. You could even have purchased a fireproof bag to put your cells in while charging if you were concerned. People are making a way bigger deal out of this than it really is. It wasn't even a manufacturer recall and there are doubtless thousands of packs still in use that weren't purchased from Geoman or Singletrack Store and you don't hear about them going up in flames. People are acting like it's a live hand grenade or something.q


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Jim311 said:


> People are acting like it's a live hand grenade or something.q


+1 on this. The main reason I posted this a while back!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=691248


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Possible Electrical Shorting with Charger*



Vancbiker said:


> +1 on this. The main reason I posted this a while back!
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=691248


Your picture gave me quite a smile. However, on a more serious note, I noticed that you are using the Ultra-fire chargers. I have one of the same chargers. The other day I needed to charge one of my cells and when I plugged the charger in I noticed a strange buzzing/crackling noise coming from inside the charger. To me it sounded like electrical shorting of some sort so I decided not to use that charger. Anyway, just a word of warning. Wouldn't it be strange if the cheap chargers turned out to be more a fire hazard than the batteries.


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## FatNoob (Aug 3, 2010)

skankingbiker said:


> The punitive damage award was equal to ONE DAY of McD's profits from selling coffee.
> 
> Stop believing all the political hype about lawsuits and actually go read what happened yourself.


The facts actually make my point even more:

#1. So this person burned herself when she placed a hot cup off coffee between her legs, took off the lid and then tried to add cream and sugar to it&#8230;

#2. Coffee needs to be brewed at around 200 degs then stored and served at around 180 degs so that then by the time you have poured it into your cup and added cream and sugar it is around 140-150 degs which is proper temp for "Hot" Coffee. Many other similar lawsuits (with various restaurants) have been thrown out or lost by the plaintiffs due to those facts.

#3. If $2.4 million is only 1 day of the profits made from a $0.47 cup of coffee (at the time) then saying half the cost of the coffee is profit would only be 23.5 cents per cup of profit... That means that 9.6 million cups of coffee where sold daily (2.4 million * 4 cups per dollar of profit) with only 700 problems in 10 years... Lets look at the numbers here:

700 injuries divided by the number of cups of coffee sold (9.6 million cups per day, 365 days a year for 10 years)?

10years * 365days a year * 9,600,000million cups per day = 35,040,000,000 cups in 10 years

So that is 700 injuries compared to 35 billion cups of coffee served... You have better chances of winning the lottery and getting struck by lighting on the same day... it is a percentage so small you would use something like the following to describe it: 1.99771689 × 10^-8

It is not her fault for placing a Hot Coffee between her legs then TAKING THE LID OFF the hot coffee and attempting to add cream and sugar to the HOT coffee while sitting a car and then spilling the hot coffee on herself...

It can not be her fault! But it is all McDonalds fault for serving HOT coffee at 180 degs&#8230; But Wait that is the right temp for "Hot" coffee?

So it is McDonalds fault for supplying the hot coffee at the correct temp for hot coffee?

I guess it is Ford's fault for someone crashing a Ford Mustang into another car?

HOT coffee should be HOT and it should be respected as such... But now our coffee is served luck warm... I can no longer get a hot cup of coffee. :-(

I guess I should sue over that too!


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Cat-man-do said:


> Your picture gave me quite a smile. However, on a more serious note, I noticed that you are using the Ultra-fire chargers. I have one of the same chargers. The other day I needed to charge one of my cells and when I plugged the charger in I noticed a strange buzzing/crackling noise coming from inside the charger. To me it sounded like electrical shorting of some sort so I decided not to use that charger. Anyway, just a word of warning. Wouldn't it be strange if the cheap chargers turned out to be more a fire hazard than the batteries.


You have to use good judgement and diligence regardless of whether you're using a high end set up or a low end on. Even the most expensive batteries and chargers do not recommend charging them unattended. Besides, how hard is it to plug in your charger when you're around, and unplug it when it's finished? Inspect your batteries and your chargers regularly. Store any lithium setup in a fireproof bag (even Lupines or high end batteries can fail catastrophically) and you should be fine. Just be careful. Some people apparently have a hard time with this and think that spending more money means they feel a little more comfortable about the safety of their setups but I'm not sure that's really the case. It's more of a matter of the chemistry of this type of battery. All batteries can explode if treated wrong.


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## MtbMacgyver (Jan 23, 2007)

Jim311 said:


> Even the most expensive batteries and chargers do not recommend charging them unattended.





Jim311 said:


> Some people apparently have a hard time with this and think that spending more money means they feel a little more comfortable about the safety of their setups but I'm not sure that's really the case. It's more of a matter of the chemistry of this type of battery. All batteries can explode if treated wrong.


I do not agree that higher quality products have the same safety characteristics as lower quality products. I intentionally didn't say price, because price and quality are not always directly related.

High quality products diligently implement the full set of recommended safety guidelines and protections recommended in the application guide for the li-ion batteries. A key part of the full set of guidelines is to protect against single points of failure, because electronics do fail occasionally in the real world. High quality products do not recommend that you only charge the battery while attended or in a fire proof location. Actually, a product that states that in their manual is a good tip that they knowingly skipped some of the safety precautions and are worried about things like single point electronic failures.

Low cost digital cameras are a good example of a product that's good at implementing the recommended safety procedures without a really high price tag. Li-ion batteries have an extremely good safety record when all the guidelines are followed.

Here's a very incomplete list of some of the recommended safety precautions that low quality products often skip. The guidelines are actually fairly extensive, but not necessarily expensive to implement if you care enough to worry about it. Unfortunately, most cell manufactures consider the full application guidelines proprietary information. You get access to the full set of data once you establish a business relationship with an authorized battery distributor. As a result, you generally can't find the full set of info on the internet. But, anyone building any significant quantity of a product with li-ion cells will have access to the full safety info.

- When the battery voltage is below 2.5v per cell, charge at 1/10 C until the voltage is 3v per cell. Then the charger can switch to a normal charge rate.

- Do not charge the battery when the temperature is below 0 degrees C or above some upper temperature limit. The charger should wait until the pack temperature is in a normal range.

- The charger should completely terminate the charge current with the charge current drops to 1/10 C.

- The device should have a cutoff voltage for the battery pack as a whole instead of relying on the protection cutoff in the pack.

- Packs should always be made from cells out of the same manufacturing lot.

- There should be a total time limit on the charge cycle.

I really can't tell you which bike light makers diligently follow all the safety guidelines because I haven't tested enough different brands. But, I've had enough exposure to a couple of brands to know that some do a fairly good job and others do a fairly poor job.


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## coachl22 (Jun 28, 2011)

I have been waiting exactly 90 friggin days. BAD BUSINESS. I don't care what you defenders say. Ah cheap light just replace it defense ( I did with a 1200 dinotte) If you compete with the big boys then you need to act like the big boys. If one of them had a problem it would be resolved by now. 

i posted this in the RECALL thread and the thread police (slocaus) raked me over the coals. Seems there was a post not to do that on that thread. Must be sponsorship involved. Anyways like I said , if you goin to compete with the big boys then act like the big boys!!!!!!!!!


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## slabcracker (Oct 27, 2008)

mattthemuppet said:


> note how none of electrik's inane vitriol is pointed at the company that actually manufactured the product?
> 
> sounds like a case of "I made a mistake, then I made another mistake, now I'm going to blame anybody but myself so I never have to take responsibility for my actions". Time to grow up and grow a pair.


That there is funny. I just bought the MJ808. If it doesn't work I'm blaming O'bama.


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

No one wants to be sold a defective product, no matter what the price is. I think it's reasonable to expect that a product shouldn't put your life at risk, even if it's less expensive than other comparable products.

My Dad told me "always buy the best quality that you can afford". While I've always kept that advice in mind when making a purchase, what happens when the best quality I can afford is one of the less expensive (magic shine) light sets?

As much as I disagree with the tone of Electrik's posts, he is partially correct. A distributor *MAY *be liable for a product he sold, even though he wasn't the manufacturer. Electrik's responses however indicate that he feels a distributor is ALWAYS liable, which is not the case.

Even so, Electrik might be right if his assertion that a QC sticker was placed on the box by Geoman is true. A distributor might be deemed more liable for a product failure if said distributor tries to assure the customer that that quality of the product being sold is something that can be relied upon because of their (distributor's) own testing.

Take a look at the following information from a large insurer:

_
Wholesaler-distributors, as well as manufacturers, can be subject to a wide variety of laws and regulations governing product liability. Bodily injury and property damage losses may arise from the product itself, the product packaging, instructions for use, labels, warnings and other "on product" messages.

The manufacturer, not the wholesaler-distributor is usually held responsible for injury arising from a defective product, because the wholesaler-distributor generally has no control over the design, assembly or quality of the item. However, wholesaler-distributors may be held liable for product defects under certain circumstances, including:

Some wholesaler-distributors provide installation, service or repair work as a "value-added" for their customers, which may increase their product liability exposure in the process.
Wholesaler-distributors that modify, repackage or re-label products may assume a greater liability than those who don't. Modification of the product can include any modification of instructions or warranties.
Repackaging under the wholesaler-distributor's name may increase the exposure substantially.
The United States has some of the most stringent product safety standards in the world. When goods are produced overseas, they do not necessarily comply with these standards. When a wholesaler-distributor imports products from a foreign manufacturer who does not carry U.S. product liability coverage, they can assume the product liability exposure.
If the manufacturer is insolvent or otherwise unavailable (foreign manufacturers with no coverage inside the U.S. for example) the wholesaler-distributor can be held liable for any defect in the product.
When the wholesaler-distributor is directly responsible for the defective condition, i.e. if they have damaged the product while repackaging, or by making product modifications, they may be held liable for product liability.
If a wholesaler-distributor had knowledge of the defective condition prior to the sale and did nothing, they can be held accountable.
If a wholesaler-distributor recommended an unsuitable product for the job they may be liable_

One thing that bothers me greatly (and that Baja Designs Shannon alluded to in her response to Electrik), is the attitude that no matter who you are (manufacturer, distributor, dealer) you are directly liable for every product you sell.

What seems to be embodied in Electrik's responses is an unwavering dislike of business in general. Even when mentioning a small business, Electrik's responses were less than generous as the little guy never gets a break in Electrik's mind.

"This just boggles my mind. Small business is the same cut-throat industry as big business. Frig." Electrik

In other words Electrik can't tell the difference between a little guy with 3 employees and a multi-national with 30,000 employees. The little guy never gets any slack or consideration even though his or her resources may be a small fraction of what a larger competitor has.

Electrik, small business is the economic engine of my country. Here in the U.S., our economy like many other economies around the globe have suffered and continue to suffer. The largest companies here in the U.S. have contributed zero net jobs over the last 10 years. Most new jobs here were produced by companies less than 5 years old.

Electrik, if you burden a small business with the exact same obligations and expectations as a large business, you'll soon find yourself in an economic hole that's impossible to get out of. But what really bothers me more than anything is the anti-business tone that underlies your responses. I've never purchased anything from Geomangear, but from lurking on this site for the last year I can tell you that he seems like he's doing the best he can under the circumstances. This doesn't mean I think it's right that you received a defective product. I feel your frustration as I'm sure most people reading this would as well. The problem is that while we have some sort of understanding of what you are going through, you have no consideration for what a small businessman is going through to attempt to make things right.

You are wrong by the way to use the word *absolutely * when describing the liability of Geomangear. You may be correct in your assertion, but it's not guaranteed.

Please PM me who you are Electrik so that when I start a new business I can make sure I don't sell you to. It wouldn't be worth it.


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## Waltah (Aug 5, 2011)

all the local riders here have magicshines and let me borrow one. ill be buying my own before long. they all had nothing but praise for the lights. some of these folks are on $4k+ bikes mind you. 2 of them had recalled batteries that they had no issue getting exchanged. 

sounds like a couple people in here didnt want to take the time to exchange the battery and just accepted using the defunct one or felt the need to complain as if no other items on the face of the planet have issues of their own.

as for the light being something you "rely your life" on. lol seriously? i can't wait for the uber sick nasty scenario's you come up with for this one....


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

Waltah said:


> all the local riders here have magicshines and let me borrow one. ill be buying my own before long. they all had nothing but praise for the lights. some of these folks are on $4k+ bikes mind you. 2 of them had recalled batteries that they had no issue getting exchanged.
> 
> sounds like a couple people in here didnt want to take the time to exchange the battery and just accepted using the defunct one or felt the need to complain as if no other items on the face of the planet have issues of their own.
> 
> as for the light being something you "rely your life" on. lol seriously? i can't wait for the uber sick nasty scenario's you come up with for this one....


I ride a lot in the dark, and while I certainly wouldn't say that "all the local riders here have magicshines" there are certainly a lot of them around. But there are also a lot of Light & Motion, Cygolight, NiteRider, and many others.

Like anything in life, we put values on things. If a low priced light suits your needs and budget then no worries, get an inexpensive light and it will likely serve you well. If you value what more expensive lights have to offer - whatever that may be to you, customer service, design, build quality, batteries, lumens, beam pattern, etc... and you can afford to buy them not rack up debt, then by all means go for it. If the pricier lights are something you value and can afford, go for it.

People bantering back and forth about the merits and drawbacks of various lights is a never-ending, never resolved task because we all come at the issue from a different perspective. There is no one answer, and hence there are a myriad of lights available for people to consider.

The group I ride in has many Magicshines and a few Niteriders, and a few old Vista Lights. I have been riding Light & Motion for quite a while. Given my experience in seeing the group with all the different lights, I was completely and totally happy with my choice of lights. The magicshine guys also seemed quite happy - but from a value perspective, they were worth the money, not their dream light in absolute terms.


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## circusubet (Aug 5, 2006)

*Money On The Cat!*



electrik said:


> We are not exactly talking about a forum member are we? Unless we're going to count corporate shill accounts which are blatantly astroturfing this board in front of the moderator's eyes.
> 
> note: It's also hilarious that i didn't notice the moderator politely moved this to another thread!!! :lol::lol: O lordie AND resubscribed me to the damn thing.


This is getting better and better! I have $20 on Cat.

Thx
John


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

ThinkBike said:


> No one wants to be sold a defective product, no matter what the price is.* I think it's reasonable to expect that a product shouldn't put your life at risk, even if it's less expensive than other comparable products.*....
> 
> ....Even so, Electrik might be right if his assertion that a QC sticker was placed on the box by Geoman is true. A distributor might be deemed more liable for a product failure if said distributor tries to assure the customer that that quality of the product being sold is something that can be relied upon because of their (distributor's) own testing.


Not to bust your chops as you seem to have come to the right conclusion but I have to comment on the statements I quoted above.

*As to products that threaten your life:* There are many products that can put your life at risk. Do you drive a car?... pilot an airplane?... own a gas heater?...a gun?..., electric heater??...etc, etc. Do you ride a bike?  ...a motor cycle, do you ski...the list is endless. We put our lives at risk everyday in the world we live in using the products WE KNOW can be dangerous, even life threatening. In comparison, a Li-ion battery barely scratches the surface of what most people would consider, "Life threatening". Like I said before, the chance of a Li-ion battery killing you would require an almost perfect set of unfavorable circumstances, ( or to put another way, "The perfect storm" ) with the most important factor being a totally incompetent user.

*Now about the QC sticker thing:* As far as I know most serious QC has to be done at the factories ( before the units are sealed ). For a product like a Li-ion powered bike light the most you could hope for by the vendor is that "Maybe" they turned the light on/off and checked the modes before they sent it out ( as some vendors will do that ). The batteries themselves are sealed units. They cannot be extensively tested per cell by the vendor. The most the vendor can do is plug the stuff in and see if it operates the light head. So far very few people ( if any ) have complained that the light they received didn't work or blew up when they first plugged it in.

Anyway, the rest of what you said seems solid. Oh and *circusubet*, I hope I made your day.


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## lamb (Sep 18, 2008)

Waltah said:


> all the local riders here have magicshines and let me borrow one. ill be buying my own before long. they all had nothing but praise for the lights. some of these folks are on $4k+ bikes mind you. 2 of them had recalled batteries that they had no issue getting exchanged.
> 
> sounds like a couple people in here didnt want to take the time to exchange the battery and just accepted using the defunct one or felt the need to complain as if no other items on the face of the planet have issues of their own.
> 
> as for the light being something you "rely your life" on. lol seriously? i can't wait for the uber sick nasty scenario's you come up with for this one....


Very insightful, thanks for sharing your non-experience with MS products.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

lamb said:


> Very insightful, thanks for sharing your non-experience with MS products.


Sorry but I can't be silent on this for too much longer....

Need it be said: "You don't have to own the cow to know what milk tastes like" ...So...what else do they fail to teach in WV ?


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## lamb (Sep 18, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> Sorry but I can't be silent on this for too much longer....
> 
> Need it be said: "You don't have to own the cow to know what milk tastes like" ...So...what else do they fail to teach in WV ?


No by all means please share your wisdom, you really seem like the type that holds back!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Waltah said:


> all the local riders here have magicshines and let me borrow one. ill be buying my own before long. they all had nothing but praise for the lights. some of these folks are on $4k+ bikes mind you. 2 of them had recalled batteries that they had no issue getting exchanged.
> 
> sounds like a couple people in here didnt want to take the time to exchange the battery and just accepted using the defunct one or felt the need to complain as if no other items on the face of the planet have issues of their own.
> 
> as for the light being something you "rely your life" on. lol seriously? i can't wait for the uber sick nasty scenario's you come up with for this one....


*Mr. Waltah*, Unlike "other" posters, I appreciate hearing your opinion. Just so you know, I'm not going to question your expertise or experience using the MS as someone else has done. If I did that not only would it be rude but it would be presuming much on the little I know about you. Anyway, I think you'll find most people will agree with what you have said on the subject.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> Lupine Tesla $450
> MagicShine copy $70
> 
> Does anyone _seriously_ expect the same level of quality and reliability from $70 light as a $450 light? Let alone one from China, not exactly a country renowned for its engineering excellence?


The vast majority of western companies simply stamp their name on a Chinese product, or use parts from china and other sources.

Two, geoman has not held up his end at all, there are stacks of people who have not recieved their replacement batteries for months, it is not their fault for the price, but rather that of the distributor who apparently is unable to back up the recall.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

For those people really screwed with the night riding season here and still waiting for a battery, I have a solution. You know that old saying about being part of the solution? If you don't DIY, tell your handy friend or dad and have them do the soldering part for you. But it's a pretty simple soldering job.

1. Buy a 7.4v Lithium Polymer battery between 3000-5000mah (must be 7.4v!) - 4000mah for $15
2. Buy a charger - AC Balance Charger for $12
3. Solder up a connection using the red and black leads from the battery and an extension from your Magicshine kit. Just remember red to red, black to black.

SAFETY NOTICE: There is no undervoltage chip in this battery. When it turns red, STOP using it. It won't blow up, but it can make the battery unusable if it's discharged too low. Best bet is to buy two batteries just in case you ride longer than expected.

I'm in the same boat as many people; waiting on Geoman for my two replacement batteries. They likely will not get here before the end of the year. But I've build two battery packs that actually run LONGER than the stock ones and it cost me less than $50. So instead of being pissed, build your own battery pack and go riding instead. When the replacements come, you can have double the run time or sell them to your local RC club.


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

*You will most likely get your battery soon I copied this from another thread

The Geomangear 6.0Ah Battery Upgrade Program is not currently available because we will be shipping thousands of recall replacement batteries in the upcoming weeks and we expect that most customers claims will be fulfilled.*


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## circusubet (Aug 5, 2006)

*Easy $20*

Cat, that was almost tooo easy...You and several others on here ( Mac, Muppet, TwoHeads ect) ALWAYS make my day. You guys are always willing to share your knowledge but what I enjoy you suffer contentious people badly.:thumbsup:

I still have a half bag of 'corn left, keep 'em coming.

Thx
John


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

circusubet said:


> Cat, that was almost tooo easy...You and several others on here ( Mac, Muppet, TwoHeads ect) ALWAYS make my day. You guys are always willing to share your knowledge but what I enjoy you suffer contentious people badly.:thumbsup:
> 
> I still have a half bag of 'corn left, keep 'em coming.
> 
> ...


too true  Arguing with people on the internet is like trying to hold back the tide.

No doubt someone will now argue that King Canute wasn't actually trying to hold the tide back or that he failed to do so because his sandals were Made in China or because he was waiting too long for his Made in China sandals to get replaced under warranty. That is, if he could read well enough to understand the labels, an ailment I clearly share with him


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

circusubet said:


> Cat, that was almost tooo easy...You and several others on here ( Mac, Muppet, TwoHeads ect) ALWAYS make my day. You guys are always willing to share your knowledge* but what I enjoy you suffer contentious people badly.*:thumbsup:
> 
> I still have a half bag of 'corn left, keep 'em coming.
> 
> ...


That made me laugh... 
True, but usually all I try to do is to put things in their proper perspective. Show people a bigger picture and sometimes they will come around. I try not to insult people but sometimes there are times ( when the **** gets deep ) when I can't help myself. 

Yes, it is entertaining. It certainly beats the "Reality shows" you see on T.V.


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## atlashomeric (Oct 12, 2011)

This might not be totally relevant, but I noticed that magicshine has been pushing their products hard on this site via banners... everywhere! I'm new to posting, but been browsing this site for a couple years. I noticed a Lupine banner, a Jetlites banner, and three Magic Shine related banners (one being Geoman). I feel like the Chinese based companies are just throwing crazy monkey wrenches in this mix. Not just for bike lights, but for a lot of products. It's like where the innovation these days?


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