# Bike fit for long legs



## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Hi All,

Before I pay for a professional bike fitting, I'd like some feedback.

Recently I upgraded my dropper post to a oneup v2 210mm so that I could pull some more post out without hitting the minimum insertion point that I did on my old 170mm dropper.

Since then, rides over an hour really start to hurt my back and neck from craning.

Frame is an xxl Capra 29. 5mm headset spacer under the bars, a 50mm 5° rise stem, and 30mm rise bars.

I'm 6'7", 37" inseam by the book measurement, ~80" wingspan

As you can see, my seat sits way above where my bars are at, and I think that's where the pain is coming from, but I'd like other opinions as well.

My thoughts to fix the problem are:
- 40mm rise bars (stem is a 35 clamp, no options for 50mm)
- DMR defy 50mm stem (stack height is lower on this and it would make the bars sit ~10mm higher)

But I don't know if raising the bars up without getting a longer stem will cause more issues with it making the cockpit more cramped. Based on my seated position below, do I need a longer stem if I raise the bars more?



















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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

After messing with the seat height etc, have you confirmed the for/aft seat position is correct? (When the cranks are horizontal, your front knee should be plumb with the center of the pedal).

It does look like you are a bit cramped up front, maybe need some rise?

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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

The bike is too small IMO. I'm 6'5" (36" inseam) and it would be a bit too small for me. The reach on my bike is 20mm longer and the stack is 30mm higher. Raising the bars should help some. Adding riser bars will won't hurt your reach unless they have extra backsweep or you roll them back more.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Shark said:


> After messing with the seat height etc, have you confirmed the for/aft seat position is correct? (When the cranks are horizontal, your front knee should be plumb with the center of the pedal).
> 
> It does look like you are a bit cramped up front, maybe need some rise?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I haven't done this, will do tonight. As far as rise, yes that's what I was thinking, just wasn't sure if I needed more stem as well

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

jeremy3220 said:


> The bike is too small IMO. I'm 6'5" (36" inseam) and it would be a bit too small for me. The reach on my bike is 20mm longer and the stack is 30mm higher. Raising the bars should help some. Adding riser bars will won't hurt your reach unless they have extra backsweep or you roll them back more.


What bike do you ride? I didn't pay attention as much to geo when i bought this bike as I should have, it was my first bike purchase in about 5 years and the "XXL" just made my brain think it was for me. Now realize that a stack >550mm would be better, I think this bike is 642.

I think it is a bit too small as well, but a new bike probably isn't in the cards unless I could sell this one, but it being XXL doesn't help. That's why I'm thinking that the riser handlebars and possibly the smaller stack stem will help out with adding some stack height

In your opinion, would a longer stem to add some reach hunch me over even more and create more issues for my back/neck?

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Another option I’ve been throwing around is switching to a 31.8 clamp stem with a 10° rise, so I can get a pair of 50mm riser bars. 

Just not sure which direction to go, and I don’t have the cash to go all of the directions to see which one works best, so figured I would ask for some suggestions from others


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

This should help (second half is what I was referring to)





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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> What bike do you ride? I didn't pay attention as much to geo when i bought this bike as I should have, it was my first bike purchase in about 5 years and the "XXL" just made my brain think it was for me. Now realize that a stack >550mm would be better, I think this bike is 642.
> 
> I think it is a bit too small as well, but a new bike probably isn't in the cards unless I could sell this one, but it being XXL doesn't help. That's why I'm thinking that the riser handlebars and possibly the smaller stack stem will help out with adding some stack height
> 
> ...


I'm on a Megatower. I'd just swap to a higher rise bar first. I doubt a longer stem would hurt but you may not need it with the riser bar.


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm 6'4 / 36" inseam...had similar issue with Kona I ride now. This was early 2018 and when I looked for risers there are very few 40mm+ rise options in the larger bar diameter. I ended up with Renthal Fatbar with 40mm rise which helped a lot. I also looked into stems but the newer bikes come with super short stems and large diameter bars which results in minimal additional rise options.

One thing that sux for us is when they ship these XL or XXL bikes the forks come 'pre-cut' so you lose the option of a longer steerer tube so you can install spacers to bring bars up to accommodate for our long legs and higher seat height.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Shark said:


> This should help (second half is what I was referring to)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great thanks! I'll check this out

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

jeremy3220 said:


> I'm on a Megatower. I'd just swap to a higher rise bar first. I doubt a longer stem would hurt but you may not need it with the riser bar.


The mega tower was on my short list but ultimately ended up being too expensive. Would have had to go with the R carbon build and the Capra just had way better components. Definitely going to keep this experience in mind for next bike purchase though.

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

sturge said:


> I'm 6'4 / 36" inseam...had similar issue with Kona I ride now. This was early 2018 and when I looked for risers there are very few 40mm+ rise options in the larger bar diameter. I ended up with Renthal Fatbar with 40mm rise which helped a lot. I also looked into stems but the newer bikes come with super short stems and large diameter bars which results in minimal additional rise options.
> 
> One thing that sux for us is when they ship these XL or XXL bikes the forks come 'pre-cut' so you lose the option of a longer steerer tube so you can install spacers to bring bars up to accommodate for our long legs and higher seat height.


Yup, if I could run 10-15mm more of spacers I likely wouldn't have a problem, but they only gave me one to work with. 40mm bars are probably going to be my first step and adjust slowly from there

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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

Sell the YT and get the Santa Cruz. No way around it, SC is way bigger and designed to fit a guy as tall as you are. Tough to say, but spending more money on the YT will not correct the basic problem. Better to just move on.
I’M 6’6” with 38” inseam and 200# ready to ride and I have a 2020 TB4 CC in an XXL. Get the Hightower if you really need the longer suspension travel. Most people don’t. I am continually surprised at how capable the TB4 is is really technical terrain. Unless you are an ‘anchors away’ sort of big mountain enduro rider getting the Megatower would be silly.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

The steer tube is cut too short on that fork. 1 5mm spacer is just ridiculous on a XXL. You can buy new uppers for your fork and have the parts swapped over. Leave a good 30mm of steer tube under the stem, and maybe a little more above to play with different setups. (did this on a new trail bike recently)

Switching to a 31.8 will open up some options. A longer 60-80mm 35 degree riser stem would be one option. Also a 50mm riser bar. I use a Spank 50mm riser on my dirt jumper for example, in combination with a riser stem.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Sell the YT and get the Santa Cruz. No way around it, SC is way bigger and designed to fit a guy as tall as you are. Tough to say, but spending more money on the YT will not correct the basic problem. Better to just move on.
> I'M 6'6" with 38" inseam and 200# ready to ride and I have a 2020 TB4 CC in an XXL. Get the Hightower if you really need the longer suspension travel. Most people don't. I am continually surprised at how capable the TB4 is is really technical terrain. Unless you are an 'anchors away' sort of big mountain enduro rider getting the Megatower would be silly.


Yea Hightower is probably what I'd get and run a 160 up front. Starting to price out either a Hightower CR, or just a frame only and swap the parts from the Capra. Would probably be cheaper to do the whole bike. I use the full 160 at the trails I ride, and ride park occasionally.

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> The steer tube is cut too short on that fork. 1 5mm spacer is just ridiculous on a XXL. You can buy new uppers for your fork and have the parts swapped over. Leave a good 30mm of steer tube under the stem, and maybe a little more above to play with different setups. (did this on a new trail bike recently)
> 
> Switching to a 31.8 will open up some options. A longer 60-80mm 35 degree riser stem would be one option. Also a 50mm riser bar. I use a Spank 50mm riser on my dirt jumper for example, in combination with a riser stem.
> 
> ...


The new uppers idea is a good one, I didn't think about that. I'll look into that, thanks

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## October26 (Jul 24, 2008)

Check out the Nicolai G1. Someone your height may find the SC too small. I'm 6'5" and the XXL Nicolai is a great size for me.


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## car_nut15 (Apr 18, 2018)

We are very similar in size. I'm 6'6 with a 37" inseam and just picked up a Tallboy in XXL. It's the best fitting bike i've owned to date. My last bike was a Trek Fuel in XXL Which fit me pretty well, but the seat tube was not steep enough and my back would hurt on longer rides

I just picked the bike up and haven't made any adjustments.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

It's not the cheapest solution, but a lot better than needing to switch frames. Which brings me to my next question. Do you love the bike otherwise? Is it worth spending $200-600 to fix?


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> It's not the cheapest solution, but a lot better than needing to switch frames. Which brings me to my next question. Do you love the bike otherwise? Is it worth spending $200-600 to fix?


I would give it a 7/10. It's a blast on the downs, and climbs reasonably well. Only issues with it are the bar height issue, and the rear shock having to run too much sag (I'm at max pressure and ~33-35% sag, would like around 25-27%). At the sag I'm at now, I blow through the travel too easily. I'm not the lightest rider at 255lbs ready to ride, but the high volume of the x2 and low 300psi max doesn't help

New bike probably wouldn't happen for a year or two since this one is still pretty new, so that's why I was leaning towards making it more comfortable while I have it.

Just placed an order for 40mm bars so we'll see how much that helps

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

see if there's a Manitou McLeod that fits your frame. Bigger guys rave about it.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

One thing I should have noted too, I didn’t have the neck and back issues with the old seatpost, but my legs didn’t get full extension. So maybe if I go up as much on the front as I did on the seat, it’ll be back to normal until I can jump into a bigger bike 


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Also have a look at Surly Sunrise Bars. Lotsa rise.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

NYrr496 said:


> Also have a look at Surly Sunrise Bars. Lotsa rise.


Will check those out as well, thanks!

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## manpurse (Feb 6, 2011)

socalrider77 said:


> One thing I should have noted too, I didn't have the neck and back issues with the old seatpost, but my legs didn't get full extension. So maybe if I go up as much on the front as I did on the seat, it'll be back to normal until I can jump into a bigger bike
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They can be hard to source but longer cranks can help with bike fit too.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

manpurse said:


> They can be hard to source but longer cranks can help with bike fit too.


Do longer cranks put more stress on your knees on the upstroke with the extra length?

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> Do longer cranks put more stress on your knees on the upstroke with the extra length?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes.

This bike is too small. You may do well to sell it on. Before you herniate a disc in your back or something like that.

The best bike for us both is a canyon strive XxL. 695 top tube and 500 reach. 654 stack. This puts plenty of space for the spider legs. The 60mm shock by 150mm travel results in descent leverage ratio. It's also a great price.

When you order ask the company to leave the steerer tube uncut and add spacers for you. Or at worst, sell the fork and install a new one as I did on my stumpy. I also put a cz38 riser bar on. 70mm zero degree stem. Swapped in 175mm cranks (which love to pound the ground).

Here is my bike with the seat tube slammed. Stumpy is 684 stack. I'm also 6'6" my wife is on the right 5'4" 15.5" remedy


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> Yes.
> 
> This bike is too small. You may do well to sell it on. Before you herniate a disc in your back or something like that.
> 
> ...


Where do you see a strive in XXL? I only see an XL on the website.

Looks like the biggest bikes in the US are the banshee titan, guerilla gravity gnarvana, and the Santa Cruz hightower/megatower.

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

I’m wondering if the new uppers with an uncut steerer wouldn’t be the way to go to increase the stack height. Could probably find a similar fork with the steerer uncut and then sell the current one? 


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> I'm wondering if the new uppers with an uncut steerer wouldn't be the way to go to increase the stack height. Could probably find a similar fork with the steerer uncut and then sell the current one?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'd really just be sliding the stem up the steering axis, gaining height and losing reach. The actual size of the bike is fixed. All you can do at this point is move your bars around (aka make compromises). Raising the stem can help but only if you're not short on reach, which it kinda looks like you are in that pic.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

just get a slightly longer stem to offset the slightly shorter Reach, it's not that big a deal.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> Where do you see a strive in XXL? I only see an XL on the website.
> 
> Looks like the biggest bikes in the US are the banshee titan, guerilla gravity gnarvana, and the Santa Cruz hightower/megatower.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right. Says xl. But check the dimensions.

More important the sta give us big leg guys more room. You can always click it to make it steeper too

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mounta...var_2241_pv_rahmenfarbe=GY/RD#!accordions=0_1

The gnarvanna isnt a big cockpit bike. Its just long in the front and rear.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

jeremy3220 said:


> You'd really just be sliding the stem up the steering axis, gaining height and losing reach. The actual size of the bike is fixed. All you can do at this point is move your bars around (aka make compromises). Raising the stem can help but only if you're not short on reach, which it kinda looks like you are in that pic.


True. Like below, a longer stem could help offset that, but it's definitely not ideal.

Either way, posted the bike just to see if I could get any bites. If not, I'll look into trying to fix it to a point that's workable until I can afford a new one

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> Right. Says xl. But check the dimensions.
> 
> More important the sta give us big leg guys more room. You can always click it to make it steeper too
> 
> ...


I see, makes sense. Seems like the best options are the strive in XL or Hightower in XXL. If only they made the Hightower in an aluminum XXL, I'd grab one of those in a heart beat!

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/review-transitions-new-sentinel-v2-2020.html

This is also a new option, potentially if run with an uncut fork in XXL. Stack is about 10mm higher than the Capra I'm on now, and reach is way higher

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/review-transitions-new-sentinel-v2-2020.html
> 
> This is also a new option, potentially if run with an uncut fork in XXL. Stack is about 10mm higher than the Capra I'm on now, and reach is way higher
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IMO This is a small bike wrt seated position. But definitely will feel better standing.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Nice balance pictures sitting on the bikes!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> IMO This is a small bike wrt seated position. But definitely will feel better standing.


Yea more research and I came to the same conclusion. I'm trying one little thing at a time to see how it affects me, and then if nothing works I'll look into getting a new bike

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Nice balance pictures sitting on the bikes!


My original is definitely not just leaned up against the garage wall!

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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Too small - and I'm 6'7" with a similar inseam.
My current bike is an aluminium Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol in their largest size. Great fit. My last FS was a Turner Sultan in XXL but they aren't made any more. You can't fix that bike with bars, stem or anything else. It's just all too small for you. Get on 99 spokes and do some research, have a look on here for the stack and reach post with the fantastic comparison visuals, so you can see what's out there and big. You need more frame, more stack, more reach.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

TooTallUK said:


> Too small - and I'm 6'7" with a similar inseam.
> My current bike is an aluminium Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol in their largest size. Great fit. My last FS was a Turner Sultan in XXL but they aren't made any more. You can't fix that bike with bars, stem or anything else. It's just all too small for you. Get on 99 spokes and do some research, have a look on here for the stack and reach post with the fantastic comparison visuals, so you can see what's out there and big. You need more frame, more stack, more reach.


Have they changed the trail pistol since you got yours? Looks like the up to date in the largest size has only 638 stack which is on the smaller side

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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Hi - only just saw this.
Yeah - it looks like they really reduced the stack for the current Trail Pistol. Mine came in at 673mm or something like that, which was not quite as high as the Specialized Camber Comp XXL at the time, (5mm lower) but the GG has more reach.
You could have a word with GG - one of the staff is 6'9" and you'll get some honest feedback from him. Given the models of forks out there, you might look at some with a bit more travel and different rake to get the front end up, as well as riser bars. If there's the clearance, 180mm cranks will give you another 5 - 10mm extra. 
Failing that, look at Canyon. I've got a Grail AL gravel bike from them and it's the biggest stock bike on the market. It's huge - loads of room. Since they make for Germans and you can get them in the US, worth a look.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

TooTallUK said:


> Hi - only just saw this.
> Yeah - it looks like they really reduced the stack for the current Trail Pistol. Mine came in at 673mm or something like that, which was not quite as high as the Specialized Camber Comp XXL at the time, (5mm lower) but the GG has more reach.
> You could have a word with GG - one of the staff is 6'9" and you'll get some honest feedback from him. Given the models of forks out there, you might look at some with a bit more travel and different rake to get the front end up, as well as riser bars. If there's the clearance, 180mm cranks will give you another 5 - 10mm extra.
> Failing that, look at Canyon. I've got a Grail AL gravel bike from them and it's the biggest stock bike on the market. It's huge - loads of room. Since they make for Germans and you can get them in the US, worth a look.


That's good to know, I'll shoot GG an email to see what they recommend.

And yea, canyon strive was mentioned farther up in this thread, taking a look there too! Thanks for the help

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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

These might help in your research:

https://geometrygeeks.bike/ (worth a month of subscription to get the data you need)
https://99spokes.com/

https://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales...-charts-pretty-much-all-xl-bikes-1043334.html


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

TooTallUK said:


> These might help in your research:
> 
> https://geometrygeeks.bike/ (worth a month of subscription to get the data you need)
> https://99spokes.com/
> ...


Just started using 99 spokes, thanks!

And thanks for the link to those charts, definitely helpful

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Bit of an update in case anyone is following, and in case anyone has this problem in the future:

I dropped the seat a little, and added the 40mm bars. Combined, that helped a lot, but still not 100% ideal.

So I found a fox 36 on Pinkbike with brand new, uncut steerer for a great price. It’s a performance model takeoff with the grip damper, so I’m going to swap in my grip2 damper and put that on so I can get another 20-30mm of stack height. Then I’ll just sell my current fork with the grip damper in it for (hopefully) what I bought it for. From there I’ll see if I need a longer stem or not. 

So far doing all of this has been a great learning experience, and still way cheaper than selling and buying a new bike. Will report back once the new fork is installed and tested! 


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

let us know and post before and after.
drop a slight riser stem on upside down as well. you may like the steering feel better that way.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> let us know and post before and after.
> drop a slight riser stem on upside down as well. you may like the steering feel better that way.


Will do! Once I get the new fork on, I'm going to see how I like the stem and adjust from there

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## TMS99 (Jun 30, 2018)

Hi mate, I feel your pain. I am 6'7" with a 38" inseam and about 210lbs. Bikes are not made for us, but that doesn't mean we cannot shred and have fun. I think you're on the right track with what you are doing. 

As you raise the stem with a longer steer tube, the reach will get shorter. So I would suggest a 60mm stem as you go up the steer tube a bit. The 40mm riser bars will help immensely and you can angle them to your liking (forward or back). 

The advice to just sell your bike and get an SC is stupid. The SC will give you 15mm more reach and 10mm more stack which is nice, but if budget is an issue, I think you can work around it with the path you are on. Not to mention that SC bikes a massively overpriced or what they are.

I currently ride a GG Smash (older alloy version) and a GG Pedalhead. Both fit well, but GG bikes are now smaller in stack and reach in their carbon models and I am looking elsewhere for my next trail bike as my Pedalhead hurts my back on longer rides (not geo, lack of suspension). I am looking at the new YT Izzo. Same stack as your Capra, but 513mm reach and I'll be doing exactly what you're doing.

Also remember, the most important measurement is pedals to bars. The more downhill oriented the bike is, the more higher the bars and the more XC oriented, the lower. But the measurement between your bars and pedals should be the similar once you nail it. 

Also, for bike fit, forget any fitter that works with roadies. They are junk. Road bike rules do not translate to MTB in any way. Things like your knee being above the pedal spindle is doesn't translate as MTB now have very steep seat tube angles. Try and find a fitter that is a physiotherapist (can look at your personal physique and muscles...etc) and has experience with MTB. You primarily want to be setup for shredding (you have a CAPRA!) and then you dial in the seated position second. The seated position does not dictate your cockpit on a MTB. So you may find you might move the saddle back, up down, forward or change the angle to just make you more comfy. Minor changes may alleviate the pain you are getting. Just because your seat is way above your bars might just mean you're not flexible enough to hold that position. Doesn't mean it's wrong. 

Anyway, let us know how you get on once you get a longer steerer tube to raise the stem. Hope this info help and hope you get back to pain free riding!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

TMS99 said:


> Hi mate, I feel your pain. I am 6'7" with a 38" inseam and about 210lbs. Bikes are not made for us, but that doesn't mean we cannot shred and have fun. I think you're on the right track with what you are doing.
> 
> As you raise the stem with a longer steer tube, the reach will get shorter. So I would suggest a 60mm stem as you go up the steer tube a bit. The 40mm riser bars will help immensely and you can angle them to your liking (forward or back).
> 
> ...


Agreed to all of it! I was planning on a 60mm stem after trying out the longer steerer for a couple rides to put me back where I'm at now.

Will report back, the fork should be here sometime this coming week!

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

At least we got some peeps in the 6'6"+ club! Its hard to find the right bicycle for us tall tall peaple. The stores dont stock XL bicycles, but at least you got the frame geometry specs online.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

matt4x4 said:


> At least we got some peeps in the 6'6"+ club! Its hard to find the right bicycle for us tall tall peaple. The stores dont stock XL bicycles, but at least you got the frame geometry specs online.


Sc bikes are way overpriced.

Not sure why people keep overlooking the canyon strive. It has the top tube measurements needed to fit a big rider and decent reach. If you slacken the seat tube you move the rider further back as you move the seat up. So this puts pedalling forces into the glutes and hams. But it also means you ride seated lower. A net positive for long inseam riders. Since the bike also has a steeper geometry mode with a push button seems like it should be the best of both worlds. I would like to try one.

Please try a 60 or even 70mm 5 degree stem flipped upside down as it will give back alot of reach. Also makes the steering swing feel more natural. Imo


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## mtnbiker1220 (Jan 30, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> At least we got some peeps in the 6'6"+ club! Its hard to find the right bicycle for us tall tall peaple. The stores dont stock XL bicycles, but at least you got the frame geometry specs online.


A lot of the shops around here do thankfully. I was able to demo plenty of XL and XXL options before I bought my bike. I was quite surprised.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> Sc bikes are way overpriced.
> 
> Not sure why people keep overlooking the canyon strive. It has the top tube measurements needed to fit a big rider and decent reach. If you slacken the seat tube you move the rider further back as you move the seat up. So this puts pedalling forces into the glutes and hams. But it also means you ride seated lower. A net positive for long inseam riders. Since the bike also has a steeper geometry mode with a push button seems like it should be the best of both worlds. I would like to try one.
> 
> Please try a 60 or even 70mm 5 degree stem flipped upside down as it will give back alot of reach. Also makes the steering swing feel more natural. Imo


Cause you can just slide the saddle back or get an offset dropper. You can't change how far the steering axis is from the BB though. That's why reach and stack are critical and too tube length is secondary. On my Megatower I have the saddle slid fairly far forward even with a 40mm stem. A slack seat tube, longer top tube, and a 70mm stem sounds terrible.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> Cause you can just slide the saddle back or get an offset dropper. You can't change how far the steering axis is from the BB though. That's why reach and stack are critical and too tube length is secondary. On my Megatower I have the saddle slid fairly far forward even with a 40mm stem. A slack seat tube, longer top tube, and a 70mm stem sounds terrible.


i think i should clarify. you are right. a slack seat tube, a long top tube and 70mm stem sounds terrible. but thats not what i was saying.

when the op mounts his new fork and leaves the steerer uncut, there will be a large loss of reach that is part of the higher stack than normal, the best way to correct this is to run a slightly longer stem than normal and in fact flip it over as this increases the reach dramatically and makes the steering feel more natural. eg. 70mm upside down feels better than a riser 60 and adds more reach

as far as top tube.... there are longer and longer reach bikes out there. but the top tube lengths stay the same for the sizes. this happens as the sta gets steeper. eg. medium bikes with 600 ttl can have 420 reach and also 450 reach. just diff sta. the longer reach bike in this case will mean the steeper sta and a long legged rider must raise the seat to fit.

since the rider is trying to get his seat more level with the bars, he should be encouraged to try a longer top tube bike. even if it has the same reach. reason being, it will slacken the sta and result in a lower seated position, lessening the low back pain.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> since the rider is trying to get his seat more level with the bars, he should be encouraged to try a longer top tube bike. even if it has the same reach. reason being, it will slacken the sta and result in a lower seated position, lessening the low back pain.


You're in the minority on this and that's why people aren't that interested in a bike with a 73° STA. Most tall riders will take a bike with a steep STA if possible.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> At least we got some peeps in the 6'6"+ club! Its hard to find the right bicycle for us tall tall peaple. The stores dont stock XL bicycles, but at least you got the frame geometry specs online.


Represent! Being tall definitely complicates things, but good other times. Win some, lose some.



mtnbiker1220 said:


> A lot of the shops around here do thankfully. I was able to demo plenty of XL and XXL options before I bought my bike. I was quite surprised.


Yea pretty all the shops in SoCal have either an XL or XXL for testing. I was able to ride an XXL megatower and XXL capra before i purchased. And there are a couple shops that have demos of XL ripmos, XXL hightowers, etc.



Fuse6F said:


> when the op mounts his new fork and leaves the steerer uncut, there will be a large loss of reach that is part of the higher stack than normal, the best way to correct this is to run a slightly longer stem than normal and in fact flip it over as this increases the reach dramatically and makes the steering feel more natural. eg. 70mm upside down feels better than a riser 60 and adds more reach


I did a calculator with my headtube angle and the added 25-30mm of stack height, and i will have 10mm less reach. So if necessary, i will be trying a 60mm stem with a +5degree rise. But who knows, maybe I'll be okay with my current 50mm +5degree stem.



jeremy3220 said:


> You're in the minority on this and that's why people aren't that interested in a bike with a 73° STA. Most tall riders will take a bike with a steep STA if possible.


Agreed. My last bike was a 2014 trance 27.5 with a pretty slack STA, i like the steeper angle of the capra a whole lot better. Come to think of it, I don't think there's anything that I don't like better on my capra.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

why do you like the steeper sta. what has been the benefit?

im going somewhere with this. i just wanted some feedback from the op first.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Fuse6F said:


> i think i should clarify. you are right. a slack seat tube, a long top tube and 70mm stem sounds terrible. but thats not what i was saying.
> 
> when the op mounts his new fork and leaves the steerer uncut, there will be a large loss of reach that is part of the higher stack than normal, the best way to correct this is to run a slightly longer stem than normal and in fact flip it over as this increases the reach dramatically and makes the steering feel more natural. eg. 70mm upside down feels better than a riser 60 and adds more reach


This is nonsensical. He wants to raise the position of his hands. He does this by raising the stem. This reduces the bikes reach and increases the stack. Fipping the stem upside down negates what he's just done, reducing stack and increasing reach. A completely pointless exercise and exactly the reverse of what he wants to do.

Raising the stem up with spacers with his new fork and making the stem longer, so the bar effectively rises vertically will get him in a more upright position, and not alter his weight distribution on the bike significantly. That's going to be his best choice for keeping his current frame.

Seat tube angle is a mostly pointless value although depends how extreme it is of course. You can effectively change the seat tube angle several degrees by moving the seat back and forth and with a set back seat post even more. For someone so tall, generally you want an effectively steeper seat tube for a forward seat position, to keep your weight toward the middle of the bike.

I've got a 34 inseam, but I'm only 6' tall, so I wind up with medium or even small frames, with long seat posts. Luckily small bikes often have far too much stack due to long travel forks, so I don't run into the issue the OP has.

You can make almost any bike "fit" you biomechanically. That's about the relation between your seat the pedals and the bars, but you want the bike to handle like it was intended to, so there's only so far you can go before it yields a poor result.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

smashysmashy said:


> This is nonsensical. He wants to raise the position of his hands. He does this by raising the stem. This reduces the bikes reach and increases the stack. Fipping the stem upside down negates what he's just done, reducing stack and increasing reach. A completely pointless exercise and exactly the reverse of what he wants to do.
> 
> Raising the stem up with spacers with his new fork and making the stem longer, so the bar effectively rises vertically will get him in a more upright position, and not alter his weight distribution on the bike significantly.


its okay. the op can and will do as he wants. he already scored a great fork and has made his ride much better. he is going to be all right.

i take it you havent run an uncut steerer on your bike before....

with a slack head angle and all that tube sticking out you loose a lot of reach. when you add in a long riser stem and you swing the bars left to right, the bars rise and fall in your hands. why, because you have moved the axis of rotation towards the vertical plane.

its annoying on a tight trail, switchback etc. it feels like you have to lift the bars up to steer. this effect is less noticeable running the stem upside down as the axis of rotation moves closer to a horizontal plane. it also has the second positive effect of gaining more reach.

assuming the bars are high enough. which they should be with 50mm riser bars. the op can use a flipped riser stem that is slightly shorter.

even if the op wants the bars higher still, he may still prefer the better feeling steering over the slight gain in height.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> why do you like the steeper sta. what has been the benefit?
> 
> im going somewhere with this. i just wanted some feedback from the op first.


It's much easier to climb when you don't feel like you're falling off the back of the bike. That's half the reason I sold my Hightower LT.

And no, longer chainstays are not a realistic solution.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Fuse6F said:


> its okay. the op can and will do as he wants. he already scored a great fork and has made his ride much better. he is going to be all right.
> 
> i take it you havent run an uncut steerer on your bike before....
> 
> ...


Just... No. None of that makes any sense whatsoever. My brain hurts now.

Raising the stem does not make any changes to the axis of rotation, it cant. The axis of rotation is the headset. That doesn't move no matter what you try to do (unless you change the fork axle to crown length). the bar will go "up and down" due to the slack angle, regardless of anything above the headset - short of having a 500mm bar and a stem that's 200mm long where you'd begin to get a tiller effect. Remember, his hands will wind up in the exact same spot relative to the headset, regardless of how we get there. This is why reach and stack numbers are the most important ones for base line frame sizing.

From the point of the headset cap, you can place the bars wherever you want with any combination of spacers, stem dimensions, and bar dimensions. Raising the stem 40mm and increasing its length by a few mms is the same as adding a 40mm riser bar. It's also the same as a stem with a x degree rise and length (do your own math). Flipping that stem is the same as removing spacers. The only thing you want to be aware of is how changing the Bar (hand) position repositions your centre of mass between the wheels. Too long a stem, and you are too far over the wheels. Push the seat too far back and you are too far over the rear wheel. (ideas on geometry change through the years, that's basically a 90's bike being too far over both ends). When you get to a point where you can't sit ergonomically between both wheels the way the bike has been designed, you need a larger frame (or in this guys case, custom cause there isn't a larger one). In his case, because he said he was comfortable with just a slightly lower seat, I think he doesn't need a larger frame, just the higher and slightly longer stem.

Please stop making my brain hurt though, I need those brain cells.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

jeremy3220 said:


> And no, longer chainstays are not a realistic solution.


Realistically you get what, 10-15mm before you begin to compromise other handling traits. much easier to move the rider forward, then move the head tube forward, then pull the bard back and move the head tube forward even more... this is basically the premise of current geometry. In the 90's we did it more or less the opposite. wind in the stays, put the seat over them, wind in the front and put a long stem on to keep weight over the front. It's kinda finny because basically what We've ended up with is a 1995 size XXL is now a 2021 size medium. In hindsight, I don't know what the hell people were thinking in the 90's - maybe something to do with the first Olympic xc race basically being done on a paved path.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Right, the steering axis is fixed. All you're doing with spacers, stems and bars is just moving your grips around relative to the steering axis. It doesn't matter how you get there.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

smashysmashy said:


> Realistically you get what, 10-15mm before you begin to compromise other handling traits.


Which isn't always a bad thing but it's going take a lot more than 15mm extra in chainstay length to equal something like a 3 degree seat tube angle change as far as correcting weight distribution. It depends on your inseam of course but a 3 degree STA is equal to moving your saddle about 30mm (probably more for riders our height) forward on the rails. So you'd need at least 60mm longer chainstays to equal the weight distribution shift of a 3° steeper STA. Obviously, 500mm chainstays would be ridiculous and that's why we have steeper seat tubes instead.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah that's what I meant.

You do eventually get to a point where you are too far forward for good riding ergonomics as well. A lot of compromises and they get much worse with a tall person.

This is why I wish people will treat wheel sizes as "fit". 26 for XS, 27.5 for small and medium, 29 for large, and maybe a 30" or 31" for XXL. Scale the bike up proportionally with the rider. Wishful thinking I guess


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

why are longer cs ridiculous?

a 5’5” rider rides the same length cs as a 6’7” rider. the shorter rider doesnt flip over backward on a climb. so why cant a tall rider have the same cs length as a shorter rider relative to their height.

what does pole run for cs or the gnarvana from gg.

i will run a hair more riser bar and a flipped stem than a hair shorter riser bar and a positive riser stem that is longer to gain back reach.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> why are longer cs ridiculous?


They're not. Longer chainstays are awesome. Chainstays long enough to compensate for for a 3° STA change are ridiculous.


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Fuse6F said:


> i will run a hair more riser bar and a flipped stem than a hair shorter riser bar and a positive riser stem that is longer to gain back reach.


or a flat bar with more stem spacers... to get the exact same end result.

please stop. 

For chainstays, if you scaled a bike proportionately, you'd scale wheels and chainstays with them, but the same rules of bike handling geometry apply, and all the lessons learned from 100 years of bike design apply. You will still have a 450-475mm chainstay on the largest size, and you'll still want to push the riders seating position forward, because this is what we know to perform the best right now. In another 40 years, we might have totally different ideas I suppose, but for now, this guy owns a bike with a designed in set of handling traits.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> They're not. Longer chainstays are awesome. Chainstays long enough to compensate for for a 3° STA change are ridiculous.


no problem. opinion heard. but why would that be bad? expand please


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

If the stays are too long, the wheelbase becomes very long, handling becomes very slow. It also be comes harder to pull the front of the bike up because your weight while standing on the pedals it too far ahead of the axle. So, you have to offset those bad things with the good things like more stability climbing. What designers have come up with is a range of 430-450mm lately, for trail type mountain bikes. What hes saying it to do MORE for seated riding balance than just moving the seat around, youd need 500mm + stays.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> no problem. opinion heard. but why would that be bad? expand please


500mm chainstays would make the bike cumbersome, hard to lift the front, probably poorly balanced, etc. No one would buy that bike. It's nice to talk about using longer chainstays in place of steeper STA's as some vague theory, but when you start figuring out what those dimensions would actually be it's a different story.

We've already talked about this in the other thread(s). Even racers like Minnaar on XL 29er downhill bikes have found their limit to chainstay length before the numbers you'd need to make up for the difference between 76° and 73° STA's.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree that longer (500mm) chainstays would be way too long. 430-450mm seems to be the sweet spot. Enough for support on steep uphills, but short enough to not completely ruin maneuverability 


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Not so fun update: new fork came in, but my chainstays are cracking so won’t be testing it out. 

Might use this time to sell the bike once it is fixed, so I’m going to the drawing board on what bikes fit the bill. So far - 

SC Hightower XXL
Giant Reign 29 XL (almost identical to the Capra XXL geo, so theoretically would be fine with the longer fork and stem spacers)
Marin Alpine Trail 8 XL
Ibis Ripmo AF XL
Sentinel XXL

I need to try to set up demos for the Marin and Ripmo to see if they are too cramped.

Thoughts? 


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## smashysmashy (Oct 18, 2013)

Did it crack cause you ride hard, or cause it cant hold your weight?

I don't have any frame suggestions, ill leave that to the tall people.


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## PNW MTB (Apr 17, 2020)

socalrider77 said:


> Not so fun update: new fork came in, but my chainstays are cracking so won't be testing it out.
> 
> Might use this time to sell the bike once it is fixed, so I'm going to the drawing board on what bikes fit the bill. So far -
> 
> ...


I'm 6' 6", 220# and I have a 2020 Jeffsy XXL on order, so I haven't ridden it yet, but have you considered the Jeffsy, or is it too "trail" for your liking? The Jeffsy geo. sure fits in with your other considerations.

Maybe you are not impressed with YT if you had BB issues.....I hope that is not a common YT problem!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

smashysmashy said:


> Did it crack cause you ride hard, or cause it cant hold your weight?
> 
> I don't have any frame suggestions, ill leave that to the tall people.


Neither I think. Apparently there's a common problem with Capra AL frames cracking. There are 2 drain holes on the back cross braces that like to crack. The YT Facebook page has about 15-20 posts about it, all cracks in the same spot. Some people are on their 2nd or 3rd warranty replacement chainstay and it keeps happening. Lead time is 4-8 weeks for warranty part, and I don't want to deal with it every time it cracks

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

PNW MTB said:


> I'm 6' 6", 220# and I have a 2020 Jeffsy XXL on order, so I haven't ridden it yet, but have you considered the Jeffsy, or is it too "trail" for your liking? The Jeffsy geo. sure fits in with your other considerations.
> 
> Maybe you are not impressed with YT if you had BB issues.....I hope that is not a common YT problem!


I don't have anything against YT, but with a common problem of the chainstays cracking, and a 4-8 week lead time, I'm starting to see the value in having LBS support behind your warranty claims, and a brand that is able to stock parts for bikes that aren't even a year old yet.

Pic of said cracks, each drain hole has them spidering out.










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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

So you never even mounted the fork to check out the fit?


Probably for the best.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> So you never even mounted the fork to check out the fit?
> 
> Probably for the best.


Nope, it came on Monday morning, found the cracks on Monday night. No point in paying someone to put it on and swap the dampers if I'm going to sell the bike anyways.

Now I just need to decide if I want to drop the coin on a Hightower, or get the giant reign 29 with the same geo that my bike has now, and put the longer fork on there.

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> Not so fun update: new fork came in, but my chainstays are cracking so won't be testing it out.
> 
> Might use this time to sell the bike once it is fixed, so I'm going to the drawing board on what bikes fit the bill. So far -
> 
> ...


Hightower for sure. Note that its a 2.66 ratio shock leverage in case your super heavy.

Anyone would love the sc ht. But i think its only xxl in carbon

And the strive, not that you are considering it, has 30 day test ride and comes w better specs as carbon wheels, carbon cranks, x01, ultimate fork, etc for that same price.

note i also have aeffect cranks on one of my bikeS and they are more flexy than my Gx eagle Dub cranks.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> Hightower for sure. Note that its a 2.66 ratio shock leverage in case your super heavy.
> 
> Anyone would love the sc ht. But i think its only xxl in carbon
> 
> ...


If I can find a good deal on the Hightower that's the route I'm leaning towards, since that's what I should have done in the first place. I'd like to get a test ride in on an XXL so I can make sure it will fix my back/neck issues before I spend all that money, because if it doesn't, then the reign 29 would fit the bill.

I'm trying to avoid DTC this time around, otherwise canyon would be in the mix

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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

YT screwed you with that lame head tube length, 120mm.

Santa Cruz XXLs have a head tube a full inch longer, 155mm.



socalrider77 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Before I pay for a professional bike fitting, I'd like some feedback.
> 
> ...


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Padre said:


> YT screwed you with that lame head tube length, 120mm.
> 
> Santa Cruz XXLs have a head tube a full inch longer, 155mm.


Yea agreed. I've narrowed it down to 2 choices -

Sentinel XXL 
649 stack
521 reach
140 head tube

Hightower XXL
660 stack
618 reach
155 head tube

The problem with the Hightower is all the shops I've called say Santa Cruz is a mess right now and they don't know when they'll get a Hightower XXL ready to go. Could be a month, could be 3.

So now I'm leaning towards the sentinel

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Called around, the Hightower C S may no longer be in stock for 2020. All the bike shops near me have said Santa Cruz is a mess right now because of COVID. Could be a month, could be 6. Might just have to ride mine out until the end of the year, or go with the sentinel 


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Update for everyone, ordered an XXL sentinel after a lot of calls to varying bike shops and manufacturers verifying fit and availability. I talked to the techs at transition and they said they have a couple local 6’7 and 6’8 riders that love the way the XXL fits, so I’m hoping it will be the same for me! 


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

This is a good thread, I went through the similar stuff when I purchased my bike....the LBS didn't bother helping me other than eagerly order it and hand it off without helping dial it in at all.

I worked with Lee Likes Bikes on my fit, I still couldn't get it high enough (I'm 6'7") but I got an angled stem, and 40mm bars and got as far as I could without replacing the fork etc.

I'm riding a 2019 Trance 29er, but I'm thinking about selling it for a XXL and I keep seeing the hightower as the one to get but I'd prefer the AL version over carbon because I'm around 280LBS w/o gear and well the price is a bit out of my range. I prefer LBS over DTC because I like to support local.

Should a XXL Tallboy be in consideration as well?


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

staggs said:


> This is a good thread, I went through the similar stuff when I purchased my bike....the LBS didn't bother helping me other than eagerly order it and hand it off without helping dial it in at all.
> 
> I worked with Lee Likes Bikes on my fit, I still couldn't get it high enough (I'm 6'7") but I got an angled stem, and 40mm bars and got as far as I could without replacing the fork etc.
> 
> ...


Really your only options are something from Santa Cruz in XXL, but as far as I know they only make XXL in the carbon. That, or something like the transition sentinel, GG gnarvana, or a Pole evolink 158 are the biggest options for us tall guys

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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

staggs said:


> This is a good thread, I went through the similar stuff when I purchased my bike....the LBS didn't bother helping me other than eagerly order it and hand it off without helping dial it in at all.
> 
> I worked with Lee Likes Bikes on my fit, I still couldn't get it high enough (I'm 6'7") but I got an angled stem, and 40mm bars and got as far as I could without replacing the fork etc.
> 
> ...


Yeah, definitely look at the Tallboy. Santa Cruz probably won't have anymore available until this fall though. I'm 6'5" and ride a Megatower and recently decided to pickup something with less travel. I considered the Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol but those 426mm chainstays are for sure too short for what I want. That basically left the Tallboy as my only other option which isn't a bad thing because my Megatower has been great. Not that it helps your wallet but I'd take carbon over aluminum for the strength and stiffness.


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> Yeah, definitely look at the Tallboy. Santa Cruz probably won't have anymore available until this fall though. I'm 6'5" and ride a Megatower and recently decided to pickup something with less travel. I considered the Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol but those 426mm chainstays are for sure too short for what I want. That basically left the Tallboy as my only other option which isn't a bad thing because my Megatower has been great. Not that it helps your wallet but I'd take carbon over aluminum for the strength and stiffness.


Yah, that's kinda the other issue is current stocking issues. May just make sense to ride most of the summer as is then post the bike up for sale and get one on order then. The travel is simular on the tallboy as the trance 29er, but I hadn't ran the go on the tallboy yet.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

The op took the sentinel xxl. Its a fine bike. 

If bikes werent so damn expensive id be fine with lbs. but have you ever ordered from jensen or cc. They sell santa cruz? i guess you can walk into a dealer for warranty, but buying online didnt help the lbs. 

i will chase the best price. Have to. 

Full disclosure: i havent ordered a bike online yet. Just parts.


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

6'9 with 42'' inseam here.

Currently on a Pole Evolink XL, which is the first bike that has truly fit me. 
Success criteria:
-Steep STA
-Long(ish) CS
-Long(ish) ST

With a super long seatpost and a steep STA, you don't get all your weight too far back during steep climbs.

https://polebicycles.com/polestore/product/evolink-140-29-v1-3/#geometry


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> Really your only options are something from Santa Cruz in XXL, but as far as I know they only make XXL in the carbon. That, or something like the transition sentinel, GG gnarvana, or a Pole evolink 158 are the biggest options for us tall guys
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


@socalrider77 Do you know when you'll get your Sentinel in? I'm close to pulling the trigger...I've found a couple XXL Hightower's in stock online that will ship...but I'm also considering the Sentinel as well.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

staggs said:


> @socalrider77 Do you know when you'll get your Sentinel in? I'm close to pulling the trigger...I've found a couple XXL Hightower's in stock online that will ship...but I'm also considering the Sentinel as well.


I ordered it may 26th and it said the ship date was between June 12-18, so hopefully by the end of June. Who has the hightowers in stock?

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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

I bet you beat the rush. Transition just quoted me August arrival.


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

yep...I ran into that issue today. I'm curious on the YT Izzo, or if I'd run into the same issue as the OP. I'm a inch shorter and don't quite have his wingspan.

513 Reach
644 Stack


Finding a XXL Santa Cruz is near impossible right now as well. Reach is only 5mm away from the XXL HighTower and the Stack is 16mm. Can make the stack up with a 35mm riser bar easily. I may be missing something else though that I'm not seeing.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

staggs said:


> yep...I ran into that issue today. I'm curious on the YT Izzo, or if I'd run into the same issue as the OP. I'm a inch shorter and don't quite have his wingspan.
> 
> 513 Reach
> 644 Stack
> ...


Reach is measured at stack height. A bike with the same listed reach but a higher stack height has the steering axis further away... meaning the bike is longer. So putting riser bars doesn't negate a difference in stack height. Increasing grip height (riser bars) puts your hands further in front of the steering axis similar to a longer stem.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> Reach is measured at stack height. A bike with the same listed reach but a higher stack height has the steering axis further away... meaning the bike is longer. So putting riser bars doesn't negate a difference in stack height. Increasing grip height (riser bars) puts your hands further in front of the steering axis similar to a longer stem.


Maybe thats why my bike doesnt feel as short as it should really be. 686 stack 67 hta.

i still run an uncut steerer and flat 70mm stem to get more reach.

45" from top of grip to floor on 27.5 x 3.0" tires.

what is the bar height on your bikes?


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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

socalrider77 said:


> Yea agreed. I've narrowed it down to 2 choices -
> 
> Sentinel XXL
> 649 stack
> ...


Not trying to rob the thread here socalrider77, but is Transition and Santa Cruz of the same quality? My local shop wasn't familiar with Transition. Which has better customer service and honoring of warranty? Which will have more longevity?


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

I don't think you can go wrong with either SC or Transition, both have good customer support etc. That being said SC has been around for a long time which would mean more customers/dealers.

@socalrider77 I realized I missed one of your questions the other day. Backcountry/competitivecyclist still have a single XXL Carbon S model Hightower in stock (desert color)


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

staggs said:


> I don't think you can go wrong with either SC or Transition, both have good customer support etc. That being said SC has been around for a long time which would mean more customers/dealers.
> 
> @socalrider77 I realized I missed one of your questions the other day. Backcountry/competitivecyclist still have a single XXL Carbon S model Hightower in stock (desert color)


Agreed. Both SC and Transition have lifetime warranties. The shops I talked to about transition (I called 3 of them) said they have never had a warranty problem with Transition. They are still a pretty small company compared to SC. And everyone knows Santa Cruz has one of the best warranties in the business, so I don't think you can go wrong with either.

At the end of the day it came down to price and geo for me. I liked that the transition was a little bit longer and slacker, and I was able to get a better deal on the transition. I'm sure both bikes will perform similarly though.

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## lakermagic (Mar 21, 2011)

I read through most of this thread, maybe I missed it though. No mention of Ventana in here. I’m 6’9” and went through this exercise a while back. I’m on my second bike from Ventana My bike is comically huge!


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## staggs (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm not quite as tall as a few folks here (only 6'6"). I was going to go with the transition but they told me an august wait (missed the ones earlier) so I actually went with a Jeffsy XXL, looking at the numbers it should fit it comes with a 35mm rise bar already so we will see. I'll toss a 50mm on there if i need to but I think it'll fit much better than my XL Trance.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Forgot to update this thread. The sentinel came in and I've had a chance to get a few rides on it. So far it's great, neck and back pain are pretty much non existent, I'm able to sit up much better with the added stack height of the frame and the spacers under the stem on the fork. Currently running 20mm of spacers underneath with a 40mm riser bar, but I might move to a DMR defy stem so that I can get about 10-15mm more rise.

All in all, much better than the capra, and the length of the bike just feels right. Going for a grey/teal theme










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## Biohazard74 (Jul 16, 2009)




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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm 6'8" and on an xxL fuel ex 8 and never have any back or neck issues with my bike. In fact I've always thought it funny that if I hurt my back doing something else, I could always ride without any pain. I don't think my legs are quite as long as yours. I kinda wear 34-36ish inseam clothes and most of my length is in my torso. I would be interested in people's opinion of my size to bike ratio though, as I've always wondered this.

Just measured my inseam at 37.5"


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> I'm 6'8" and on an xxL fuel ex 8 and never have any back or neck issues with my bike. In fact I've always thought it funny that if I hurt my back doing something else, I could always ride without any pain. I don't think my legs are quite as long as yours. I kinda wear 34-36ish inseam clothes and most of my length is in my torso. I would be interested in people's opinion of my size to bike ratio though, as I've always wondered this.
> 
> Just measured my inseam at 37.5"
> 
> ...


Doesn't look too bad, your seat post looks super high like mine does!

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## TNTall (Nov 7, 2016)

I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread, but take my advice and get a tall stem. The origin8 40 degree stems on ebay can change your life. They are cheap enough to experiment with a few different ones. A 70mm or 90mm by 40 degree stem will raise your bars way up.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Origin8-ST...980875&hash=item48e7ea848d:g:CGwAAOSwgYde9xXs

Protaper used to make the 810 bars in 3" rise, but they are discontinued. They are great, and I have three of them. If you can't find them, a 2" rise is fine when added to a long 40 degree stem.

I am 6'9" and messed around with small increments for years before finally realizing I had several inches I needed to go up - not just one or two inches like most parts that are made for normal people. I never could ride my bike right until I got my grips about the same height as my saddle at fully up. I ride a lot of blue and black diamond trails. If you like XC style riding, the lower bars are fine.

About the reach and bike size - you can do fine with a bike with 490mm to 500mm reach. I was lucky enough to snag a XXL Trail Pistol before GG quit making them, but I will say I don't actually ride that bike as much because it is so big it will not maneuver through many twisty trails I ride. Most trails where I live are made for normal size bikes with shorter wheelbases, so I ride my Element most often. It is definitely less confident than the Pistola on technical and downhill, but the nimble handling makes it much easier to keep up with my little riding buddies most often.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

^I bet you're right. I just got a 13* 50mm stem to replace my 0* 60mm, and the slight raise up made a huge difference in cockpit comfort. I run the knock block stuff on Trek, so unless I do some machine shop work, I'm limited in what I can run.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> ^I bet you're right. I just got a 13* 50mm stem to replace my 0* 60mm, and the slight raise up made a huge difference in cockpit comfort. I run the knock block stuff on Trek, so unless I do some machine shop work, I'm limited in what I can run.


What stem did you go with? 70mm is a bit too long but 13* 50mm sounds good

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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> What stem did you go with? 70mm is a bit too long but 13* 50mm sounds good
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The kovee pro 35 $115. Yeah it's a ripoff, but I didn't feel like machining a cheaper stem and i didn't see a cheaper knock block compatible product.

I wouldn't worry so much about the longer lengths that he listed, that length will mostly go up and not out, given that steep angle, so it wouldn't be as bad as you might think.

Of all the things that I've bought to mitigate fit factors, the stem made a very noticeable difference...surprisingly so. It did not make me feel cramped at all, it made me feel more comfortable, and I never thought that I was uncomfortable in the first place, so a riser stem was the last thing on my list.

Your listed body dimensions are nearly identical to mine.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> The kovee pro 35 $115. Yeah it's a ripoff, but I didn't feel like machining a cheaper stem and i didn't see a cheaper knock block compatible product.
> 
> I wouldn't worry so much about the longer lengths that he listed, that length will mostly go up and not out, given that steep angle, so it wouldn't be as bad as you might think.
> 
> ...


Good to know! Thanks for the info. I was looking at the dmr defy stem as well. 50mm, 5* rise, and can add 8mm more of spacers underneath. Should make it almost identical (2mm higher) to the kovee you mentioned at a slightly cheaper price!

What's the stack and reach on your bike currently? How many spacers under the stem?

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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> Good to know! Thanks for the info. I was looking at the dmr defy stem as well. 50mm, 5* rise, and can add 8mm more of spacers underneath. Should make it almost identical (2mm higher) to the kovee you mentioned at a slightly cheaper price!
> 
> What's the stack and reach on your bike currently? How many spacers under the stem?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


64.5 50.5cm stack and reach.

There is a big difference between 5* and 13* rise though. It's almost 3x. Now that I know how this feels, i would jump at the chance to do a 40* stem if I could. I have three spacers under my stem, and I would've added more if the knock block spacers had readily been available when I put my fox 36 fork on.

I still haven't rode enough to tell if it's going to help my hands and wrists, but damn it feels more comfortable riding.


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## codahale (Oct 6, 2018)

TNTall said:


> I never could ride my bike right until I got my grips about the same height as my saddle at fully up. I ride a lot of blue and black diamond trails. If you like XC style riding, the lower bars are fine.


I wish this was more commonly talked about with taller riders. Getting a bike with a tall stack and setting it up so my bars are about the same height as my saddle has made a massive difference in my ability to comfortably ride technical terrain.

It's wild how many bikes are out there these days with 500mm+ reaches and 630mm stacks.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> 64.5 50.5cm stack and reach.
> 
> There is a big difference between 5* and 13* rise though. It's almost 3x. Now that I know how this feels, i would jump at the chance to do a 40* stem if I could. I have three spacers under my stem, and I would've added more if the knock block spacers had readily been available when I put my fox 36 fork on.
> 
> I still haven't rode enough to tell if it's going to help my hands and wrists, but damn it feels more comfortable riding.


You're correct there is a big difference between 5* and 13*. The difference comes from the dmr stem having a much lower stack height, so you can stick it up higher on the steerer tube than the kovee stem, thus raising where the bars sit on the steerer tube. Here's my logic:

Kovee stem: 20mm spacers, 13* rise, 50mm
Dmr stem - 28/29mm spacers, 5* rise, 50mm

I plugged these numbers into a stem height calculator and the dmr stem comes out at the same reach with 2mm more height than the kovee

Here's a video that explains the dmr stem - 





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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

codahale said:


> I wish this was more commonly talked about with taller riders. Getting a bike with a tall stack and setting it up so my bars are about the same height as my saddle has made a massive difference in my ability to comfortably ride technical terrain.
> 
> It's wild how many bikes are out there these days with 500mm+ reaches and 630mm stacks.


I think every rider over 6'4 needs to pay a lot of attention to what the stack height is when purchasing a bike. Anything 650mm+ should be what us tall guys aim for. It's easier to get more reach than it is to get stack height imo

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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> You're correct there is a big difference between 5* and 13*. The difference comes from the dmr stem having a much lower stack height, so you can stick it up higher on the steerer tube than the kovee stem, thus raising where the bars sit on the steerer tube. Here's my logic:
> 
> Kovee stem: 20mm spacers, 13* rise, 50mm
> Dmr stem - 28/29mm spacers, 5* rise, 50mm
> ...


I assumed that your fork is cut and you are limited in how many spacers you can fit. Is that not the case?

...oh I see.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> I assumed that your fork is cut and you are limited in how many spacers you can fit. Is that not the case?
> 
> ...oh I see.


Yep fork is topped out with 20mm worth of spacers right now, so with the dmr stem should be able to fit 30mm in there and get 5* ride out of it

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

My bike is 686 stack, uncut stem, full stack of spacers, 38mm riser bars. Seat just about parallel with bars. 27.5” x 3.0” tires. Top of bars are just over 45” to the floor. 

Curious what you guys have for this measurement?

flat 70mm stem.

its a lot of fun to ride.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Duplicate


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> My bike is 686 stack, uncut stem, full stack of spacers, 38mm riser bars. Seat just about parallel with bars. 27.5" x 3.0" tires. Top of bars are just over 45" to the floor.
> 
> Curious what you guys have for this measurement?
> 
> ...


Are you measuring at the top of the grip?

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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Got the DMR stem put on, was able to fit a 10mm spacer extra from the old stem. Here are some measurements:

30mm spacers
Renthal fatbar 40mm rise bars
DMR Defy 50mm stem, 5* rise

Floor to top of grip - 44"
Floor to top of saddle where my butt sits - 46.5"

Still not completely level, but as close as I'm going to get and I feel much more upright riding around the neighborhood, and the extra reach is welcome



















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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

This is what I was able to achieve with my 13 degree rise stem I love it I can't believe I didn't try to do this earlier


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> View attachment 1349159
> 
> This is what I was able to achieve with my 13 degree rise stem I love it I can't believe I didn't try to do this earlier


Looks like we're about in the same spot with the bar:saddle height ratio.

Went for a local ride with the new stem yesterday, it was much better

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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Yes top of grip. 45 1/4". My tires are about 7mm smaller diameter than most 29ers. So really 45 1/2 if your comparing to a 29er

nice setup with the dmr stem


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> Yes top of grip. 45 1/4". My tires are about 7mm smaller diameter than most 29ers. So really 45 1/2 if your comparing to a 29er
> 
> nice setup with the dmr stem


Mine is right at 45.5" too.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

@[email protected] said:


> Mine is right at 45.5" too.


its nice to be able to attack a down section and have the bike up in your hands. You have to brace into the bars during hard braking or when hitting various obstacles. Now i can get the arms i to an angle thats straight in line with the hill. Or so i think. This really simplifies the balance of the body.

if the bars are down by your knees its hard to get locked in.


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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

*Stems*

I need this! I'm 6'7" and this is my first full suspension. I have numb hand after 2 hrs.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

wesleytide77 said:


> I need this! I'm 6'7" and this is my first full suspension. I have numb hand after 2 hrs.


Looks like you could benefit from a higher rise handlebar/stem! Is that an XXL megatower?

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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

Yes. I don't know why SC puts a standard rise on a xxl. Suggestions? Was thinking your stem and 40mm riser bar. Maybe Renthal? I like the idea of a stem that goes up and not out. Reach is good just need wider hip angle. I have a very stiff thoracic spine, which does not help.

Also 170mm crank is the equivalent of running with a belt around my knees.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

wesleytide77 said:


> I need this! I'm 6'7" and this is my first full suspension. I have numb hand after 2 hrs.


If that were my bike, those bars would be rolled forward a good bit. I can't stand them like you have them mounted.

You tried that yet? It will open up the cockpit a little, and put more weight over the front, and it may feel more natural on your wrists.


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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

Won't hurt. I'll give it a shot. Can't make my hands more numb or wrists more sore. Thought I was shooting for max elevation.


@[email protected] said:


> If that were my bike, those bars would be rolled forward a good bit. I can't stand them like you have them mounted.
> 
> You tried that yet? It will open up the cockpit a little, and put more weight over the front, and it may feel more natural on your wrists.


 Sent from my SM-N975U1 using tiny.cc/Mtbr_android_app


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

wesleytide77 said:


> Won't hurt. I'll give it a shot. Can't make my hands more numb or wrists more sore. Thought I was shooting for max elevation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using tiny.cc/Mtbr_android_app


Maybe it's an illusion, but it looks like you'd have better elevation rolled forward too.

It could just be optical illusion though.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

wesleytide77 said:


> Yes. I don't know why SC puts a standard rise on a xxl. Suggestions? Was thinking your stem and 40mm riser bar. Maybe Renthal? I like the idea of a stem that goes up and not out. Reach is good just need wider hip angle. I have a very stiff thoracic spine, which does not help.
> 
> Also 170mm crank is the equivalent of running with a belt around my knees.


My stem might not be necessary if you already have 30mm of spacers under your stem. 30mm is the max you should have under the stem. If you already have 30mm, get a stem with a high degree rise, and high rise handlebar. 31.8 bars have a lot of 50mm options, 35 bars only have 40mm rise as max

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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

*that 40mm renthal bar*

BTW, you can't find that renthal bar anywhere right now in a 35mm clamp.



@[email protected] said:


> Mine is right at 45.5" too.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

wesleytide77 said:


> BTW, you can't find that renthal bar anywhere right now in a 35mm clamp.


I have the 35mm rise renthal bar, and I love it. I actually bought a 35mm rise One up bar because they posted this graph of how much vibration damping it had in comparison to all other bars because of it's oval cross section. When I was torquing the ends of my grips, I didn't get past 2-3nm before the end cracked. My ergon grips show 5nm as the torque. I'd done it so many times on my renthal that I didn't think anything of doing it on my oneup bar. I told them and they sent me a new bar, but it's just sitting there in a package, I'm afraid to use it with the ergon grip clamps.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> My stem might not be necessary if you already have 30mm of spacers under your stem. 30mm is the max you should have under the stem. If you already have 30mm, get a stem with a high degree rise, and high rise handlebar. 31.8 bars have a lot of 50mm options, 35 bars only have 40mm rise as max
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What dictates that as the max?


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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

I'd buy it from you, but I just ordered a 35mm riser today.* 40mm in a 35 clamp with a 800mm and all black doesn't exist during the covid low stock summer. An all black bikes need black bars IMO. Got a cheaper ethirteen 35mm riser. Gonna run it for the summer and maybe the defy2 50mm.

When winter hits I'll circle back to a 40mm riser renthal. Or a 31.5 with even higher riser.

Also double check that rotation on Friday and maybe drop controls a little further. While I'm a newbee, I appreciate that you guys have been really helpful! My background in fiddling with off-road truck and outboard repairs has helped with these bikes. Legos compared to truck lifts and engines. I will say, I will do my own frame up build next time. I suggest that for every tall guy who knows how to use torque wrenches and can research user manuals. Very happy with the SC, Just component issues with "R" build. Bent the WTB wheel first ride out. Looking to go with DT 511 wheel as carbon is too rich for my blood.



@[email protected] said:


> I have the 35mm rise renthal bar, and I love it. I actually bought a 35mm rise One up bar because they posted this graph of how much vibration damping it had in comparison to all other bars because of it's oval cross section. When I was torquing the ends of my grips, I didn't get past 2-3nm before the end cracked. My ergon grips show 5nm as the torque. I'd done it so many times on my renthal that I didn't think anything of doing it on my oneup bar. I told them and they sent me a new bar, but it's just sitting there in a package, I'm afraid to use it with the ergon grip clamps.


 -Romans 1:20


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

@[email protected] said:


> What dictates that as the max?


If you look at fox and RS they say that's the max they recommend otherwise it puts too much force on the steerer tube. Also had a couple bike shops tell me the same thing

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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

socalrider77 said:


> If you look at fox and RS they say that's the max they recommend otherwise it puts too much force on the steerer tube. Also had a couple bike shops tell me the same thing
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow. Never even thought about that.


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## wesleytide77 (May 29, 2020)

socalrider77 said:


> My stem might not be necessary if you already have 30mm of spacers under your stem. 30mm is the max you should have under the stem. If you already have 30mm, get a stem with a high degree rise, and high rise handlebar. 31.8 bars have a lot of 50mm options, 35 bars only have 40mm rise as max
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How do you measure that?

-Romans 1:20


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## @[email protected] (Aug 25, 2017)

wesleytide77 said:


> How do you measure that?
> 
> -Romans 1:20


My spacers are 10mm each. I have three.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

wesleytide77 said:


> How do you measure that?
> 
> -Romans 1:20


Take a ruler and measure the spacers between the headset cup and the bottom of the stem to get the spacer height.

If you were asking about bar rise, it's likely inscribed somewhere on your bars.

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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

socalrider77 said:


> Got the DMR stem put on, was able to fit a 10mm spacer extra from the old stem. Here are some measurements:
> 
> 30mm spacers
> Renthal fatbar 40mm rise bars
> ...


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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

Hay social ride 77
I like the your set up!!
Did you have any trouble with the fitment of the bars to the stem?
I went to fit the same setup today,40mm rise fatbar with the 50mm defy stem,I could not get the two clamps close enough on the bar to mate it to the stem.
Any tips??
did you have to force them together??
Cheers
Clay!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Claymtb said:


> Hay social ride 77
> I like the your set up!!
> Did you have any trouble with the fitment of the bars to the stem?
> I went to fit the same setup today,40mm rise fatbar with the 50mm defy stem,I could not get the two clamps close enough on the bar to mate it to the stem.
> ...


Nope no issues. Make sure you got the right stem. They make 2 versions, one for a 35mm bar and one for a 31.8mm bar. If you got the 31.8 stem version and have a 35 bar it won't work

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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

Cheers for the reply ride77!!
Have had another shot of fitting after seeing your set up.
Yeah all the parts are compatible,but the two clap bits will just not slide down further enough.
By any chance are your bars carbon??if so is the finish smooth to the touch??
I have the alloy ones seem to have a some kind of grit finish on them,the two clamps seen to just bind up and wont move the last 10mm or so. Bugger!!
Thanks for the reply!
Cheers
Clay!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Claymtb said:


> Cheers for the reply ride77!!
> Have had another shot of fitting after seeing your set up.
> Yeah all the parts are compatible,but the two clap bits will just not slide down further enough.
> By any chance are your bars carbon??if so is the finish smooth to the touch??
> ...


Nope mine are renthal fatbar alloy. Now that I think about it, I think I started the stem clamp closer to the grips where the bar diameter is smaller and then wiggled it over, not sure if that is helpful or not

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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

Thanks so much for the replys ride77
Think I will have another shot at fitting
Cheers
Clay!!


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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

n


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## Claymtb (May 30, 2021)

Got em!!


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