# DU needle bearing shock bushings! Really good find.



## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Didnt realize there was that much drag on the stock DU bushing till i swapped them out today. I remember another manufacturer was doing this at one point and if I remember it was Avalanche.
I figured for $19.99 installed it was worth it to see, if it didnt work then ehhh it still holds the shock in.

Anyhow a buddy told me of a shop thats near his place of work and it turned out pretty good. Small with lots of stuff, Alan (owner) ordered a XL jedi so we started BSn and then he popped in back and came out with this. He installed one on his shock.

Well it works really well, I thought Alan turned my comp down a couple of clicks open. I know he didint I was standing right there and obviousley took pics but it went down alot easier. I wanted to do both ends and he said just the end with the most significant movement, the other end barely moves but a couple of degrees and would wear a flat spot eventually.

Anyhow I just figured it was a good find, it definently made a difference right off the bat as far as feel and ease of shock pivot.

Just a cool find and figured Id throw it out there!
Alan, www.velomech.net not much of a site but he has a nice high end shop as well as trinkets, schwalbes (good price call only), King etc... Cool guy hell of a rider.


















Old DU bushing









New DU bushing with needle bearings









Special press tools are needed to press it in, not to say others dont have the DU one but the one for the bearings is different then the DU one.

















Alan charges $19.95 as well but if you send your shock in he'll install for free.

Yes I paid retail I just thought it was pretty damn slick so Id share it.:thumb:

I did get free install though!


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

pretty
cool....


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> pretty
> cool....


Hey BI found them in Boise so either I got all giddy to find anything cool or its pretty neat LOL.
No it actually smoothed out the back end alot, it takes alot less to get it to push down over all. I upped the comp at the bike park today, had too. it felt too quick.

Nice M6 BTW! :thumbsup:


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## 92SE-R (Sep 23, 2005)

Awesome find Trav.


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

92SE-R said:


> Awesome find Trav.


Thanks man!


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Actually, it's been out for a while. Only available for now in 22mm spacing, which includes Turner and Jedi, among others. Bunch of good reviews in the Turner forum.

I asked Chris @ Enduro as to when the other sizes will be available, and he never got back to me.

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id275.html


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## kenbentit (Jan 2, 2003)

Yep, we just got those in last week and I couldn't believe what a difference it made. Rear wheel tracks noticeably better thru chop, cornering is unreal. Most economical upgrade I can think of.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Ahhhhhh It's going to take soooo much work to make mine fit in my CCDB eyelets....

I think imma have to sand down my DU bushings so that I can press the needle bearing into that. Better be worth it hahahah


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Am I the only one that thinks that needle bearings may not be ideal in this application?


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Jim311 said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that needle bearings may not be ideal in this application?


Boss does it, theres another high end shock company doing it as well as avalanche did.
We are shuttling today and I was beating it at the bike park yesterday Ill post up thoughts and time review as well. If its eeehhhh than it was $20 if its worth it then right on!

I will say it was alot more supple on the chatter yesterday as well as smoother. The back end felt more alive, I did have to add a little comp as it was too quick after install.

Bos stoy shock


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Jim311 said:


> Am I the only one that thinks that needle bearings may not be ideal in this application?


No, you're not.

Bearings are made to rotate, not for static loading. A great concept and I'm interested to find out how well they hold up.


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## 1soulrider (Jan 21, 2004)

zebrahum said:


> No, you're not.
> 
> Bearings are made to rotate, not for static loading. A great concept and I'm interested to find out how well they hold up.


Needle bearings are made for low rotation high force loads, so they are the best bearing choice for this application.
I installed one of these kits on my trailbike a few weeks back, and no question it improved the sensitivity of the suspension. It makes an air shock feel more like a coil off the top of the stroke, very buttery.
I am interested to see how the longevity is as well, this is my only concern with the kit. If the bearings can last as long as DU bushings, then this is a winner in my book.
Time will tell.


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## iridemtb (Mar 25, 2008)

Don't moto bikes use needle bearings? Not that is exactly relevant to downhill, but motocross bikes do have relevant suspension movement to mountain bikes, and they take muchhh bigger loads of force.


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

Been a thread here on Enduro's needle bearings for a while now with all positive results, plan to mount some up on the DHR :thumbsup:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=581373


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

It's a dead horse that has been beaten many times before, but ball, needle, and roller bearings are made for rotation. Needles are clearly better suited to this application than balls, but I still see a possibility for the needles to deform under repeat loading since the force doesn't get much of a chance to be spread between several needles around the race. Anyway, I didn't mean to stir up some pissing match, I was just stating that I don't have full confidence in the system until I see it proven. I'm reading through the other thread now, and am very interested in spending the $20 to give it a shot. Worst case, having to buy another $3 bushing.


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## [email protected] (Oct 1, 2005)

Iggz said:


> Ahhhhhh It's going to take soooo much work to make mine fit in my CCDB eyelets....
> 
> I think imma have to sand down my DU bushings so that I can press the needle bearing into that. Better be worth it hahahah


I'm guessing you have a wide shock mount bolt so you don't have the spherical eyelet bearing thet cane Creek uses?

The spherical eyelet bearings last a really ling time, but they're too big to fit in other shocks. Curnutt had had em for over 10 years.

Krispy


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> It's a dead horse that has been beaten many times before, but ball, needle, and roller bearings are made for rotation. Needles are clearly better suited to this application than balls, but I still see a possibility for the needles to deform under repeat loading since the force doesn't get much of a chance to be spread between several needles around the race. Anyway, I didn't mean to stir up some pissing match, I was just stating that I don't have full confidence in the system until I see it proven. I'm reading through the other thread now, and am very interested in spending the $20 to give it a shot. Worst case, having to buy another $3 bushing.


I also have my doubts about it's ability to remain sealed and greased. But who knows, it might turn out to be a great idea, it's just unconventional.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I'm guessing you have a wide shock mount bolt so you don't have the spherical eyelet bearing thet cane Creek uses?
> 
> The spherical eyelet bearings last a really ling time, but they're too big to fit in other shocks. Curnutt had had em for over 10 years.
> 
> Krispy


Yah man
My M6 has something like 37mm top width and 40mm on the bottom so no spherical eyelets for me. Another problem is the stock bushings are REALLY loose both with the pin in the eylet and the bolt in the pin, always have been that way. Kinda been pissing me off.... when I pick up the bike there's noticeable play in the shock eyelets. I was hoping the kit would help take some friction out from the bottom bushing since it has to rotate so much with the vpp link and take out the ridiculous amounts of play but now I can't do much hahah

Any tips? Should I just try to dremel out the bushing in the eyelet so it can fit the needle bearing? And how would you recommend to shim the needle bearing pin on the 8mm shock bolt, it has some play in it as well.

Cheers


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## Secace (Sep 8, 2004)

How ironic...I was just thinking about heading down to Akron bearing tomorrow to see what I could find after playing around with the Formula One last night thinking about how much drag there is at the shock mounting points. Very cool piece.


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## Secace (Sep 8, 2004)

Does this bearing kit use a standard diameter pin that would normally fit through a shock's stock bushing? If so, I'm failing to see what the issue is with width to fit an application other than 22mm. Just use the pin that came off your shock and space accordingly on either side of the eyelets over the pin to keep the shock centered with whatever you can find...stainless/aluminum sleeves cut to fit....likely the same sleeves you're probably using now on your stock setup. Correct me if I'm wrong....the needle bearing rotates around the pin. The pin is fixed stationary in place between the frame mounts once torqued to spec. The darker anodized pieces look to be nothing but spacers to keep things centered. If they are bearings critical to smooth operation, they could still be used with some creative shimming. Can anyone confirm the kit's pin diameter?


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Cut bushings to size, space between pin, done.


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

Iggz said:


> Cut bushings to size, space between pin, done.


Wouldn't that be to flexible? Shouldn't you have to replace the axle with the length equal to "A" like how Fox does it?


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## Andrewpalooza (Dec 7, 2004)

The new 2010 Specialized Enduro and Stumpjumper effectively replace a DU bushing with a bearing at the activated end of the shock. Instead of an eyelet, they have a yoke that interfaces with the horst link with a bearing. So similar concept really. Seems like a good idea.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Cable0guy said:


> Wouldn't that be to flexible? Shouldn't you have to replace the axle with the length equal to "A" like how Fox does it?


Nah


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Iggz said:


> Nah


Yes you have to if A becomes bigger than, lets say, 35 mm. A friend has a Banshee Rune and the shock mount ID at the + rotation point is like 40mm and Chris from Enduro told him not to machine some spacers because the whole setup would flex. I have a frame mount ID of 25.12 mm so I just need a couple of washers instead of spacers.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

It would flex, but would it flex less than alu split-alu reducers in the same situation?

My Quasi-Moto has, IIRC, about a 44mm width between the link plates that the bolt passes thru for the rear shock eyelet. When I first got the bike I went through reducer hat pairs fairly regularly and DU bushings very quickly.

I soon found the 3-piece setup which uses the steel sleeve all the way across with alu centering spacers, and that was MUCH better - however the steel sleeve had a tendency to wear into the aluminum of the rocker plates.

Last year I moved to the BETD two-piece, which IMO is even better yet, because the outers of the sleeve are larger where the link plate hits the sleeve (on one side at least), and the spacer on the other side was camfered so that it hit better against the DU, allowing it to move more vs the DU, preventing wear on the link plate.

I'd be super willing to try the spacer approach with the Enduro kit, but would need to confirm that the outer sides of the Enduro kit are meant to rotate (I *think* they are) vs the bearing because that would end up giving me an assembled but relatively immobile structure all the way across and cease all wear on my link plates. :^)


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

I never understood why the mfg's continue to use bushings, cheap I guess. I'm doing this mod to my Session 88DH now that I know of a supplier, thanks for the headsup!:thumbsup:


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

I just noticed that Enduro is getting a 40mm wide kit ready, i'm SOOO going to get one as soon as I can. I wonder if they'd do a pre-order list?


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Seems like it would work quite well. Don't see many side loads going threw that point and no thrust washers. 

Thrust washers & side load = Fail


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

bear said:


> I just noticed that Enduro is getting a 40mm wide kit ready, i'm SOOO going to get one as soon as I can. I wonder if they'd do a pre-order list?


I wonder if one could grind that down to work on other frames as well....


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> Bearings are made to rotate, not for static loading. A great concept and I'm interested to find out how well they hold up.


U-joints in the drive train of vehicles use needle bearings between the cap and body. In that application, there is little to sometimes no rotation between the cap and body, they experience very high loads, and they still last for years. As long as Enduro is using the correct materials at the correct tolerances and hardnesses and everything is lubed properly, these puppies should last a pretty long time.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm curious how much these could actually improve things compared to standard bushings. Did those of you who noticed an improvement, check to see how much stiction you had with your bushings before you made the switch? If I disconnect one end of my shock, the other end rotates freely around the pivot bolt. If yours does not, it can probably be fixed with a little grease. So, I'm wondering if those people who noticed a difference maybe just had dirty bushings when they switched. 

One other note: I would expect needle bearings to be more sensitive to dirt and contamination than a bushing.


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

Nickle said:


> U-joints in the drive train of vehicles use needle bearings between the cap and body. In that application, there is little to sometimes no rotation between the cap and body, they experience very high loads, and they still last for years. As long as Enduro is using the correct materials at the correct tolerances and hardnesses and everything is lubed properly, these puppies should last a pretty long time.


Combine that with the fact that the part that actually wears out only costs $5 to replace. Exactly the same as a DU. The reducer/race for the needle bearings should last a very long time.

People could also try rotating the needle bearing 180 degrees every few months to change the rollers being hammered the most.


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

even if a bushing rotates smooth its going to multiply any stiction with the load added when riding so its still going to have a reasonable amount of drag.
Bearings will roll smooth even under load so as it increases it wont effect the movement much.

As far as did I notice a difference YES no questions asked it was as if he opend my comp up.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

bear said:


> I just noticed that Enduro is getting a 40mm wide kit ready, i'm SOOO going to get one as soon as I can. I wonder if they'd do a pre-order list?


Are you serious? God damnit I wasted $40 on this ****ing **** and now I need to waste 40 more


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## YoPawn (Mar 26, 2008)

bullcrew said:


> even if a bushing rotates smooth its going to multiply any stiction with the load added when riding so its still going to have a reasonable amount of drag.
> Bearings will roll smooth even under load so as it increases it wont effect the movement much.
> 
> As far as did I notice a difference YES no wuestions asked it was as if he opend my comp up.


Exactly, putting pressure on the DU increases friction many fold. I found that the needle bearing kit improves plushness throughout the entire stoke of the shock. Not just the top.


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## unclekittykiller (Mar 1, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> I also have my doubts about it's ability to remain sealed and greased. But who knows, it might turn out to be a great idea, it's just unconventional.


I cam't really understand why so many people are expressing doubt about the durability of this system. the shock eyelets are just another 2 pivots on the suspension system, of which most bike manufacturers already use bearings that don't make a full rotation. bearings that are designed for this use are called "full complement" and don't use a retainer cage between the balls or needles. this way more balls or needles are able to be packed between the races and are able to sustain considerable more loads. most suspension pivots use ball bearings and hold up to the intended use well enough that they continue to be used. the shock eyelet kit is a full complement needle bearing design which should, on paper, hold up better than the rest of the suspension pivot bearings already do. I wouldn't call it unconventional.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

4JawChuck said:


> I never understood why the mfg's continue to use bushings, cheap I guess. I'm doing this mod to my Session 88DH now that I know of a supplier, thanks for the headsup!:thumbsup:


Lighter, higher static load capacity, cheaper, no need to grease, contaminant and chemical resistant etc etc


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Can someone measure for me the external diameter of the steel axle? Or the diameter of the shaft that goes through the needle bearing in the installation tool?


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

tacubaya said:


> Can someone measure for me the external diameter of the steel axle? Or the diameter of the shaft that goes through the needle bearing in the installation tool?


Ill be by his shop tomorrow Ill get you a measurement! (if it doesnt pop up first.)


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

If anyone wants the kit I'll sell mine


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Can someone measure for me the external diameter of the steel axle? Or the diameter of the shaft that goes through the needle bearing in the installation tool?


11mm


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## Secace (Sep 8, 2004)

Without ripping my shock off to measure....what is the diameter of the pin/axle on a standard bushing setup? Hopefully it's the same that way you could just use the axle off your stock shock and not have to worry about width fitment as much


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## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

Secace said:


> Without ripping my shock off to measure....what is the diameter of the pin/axle on a standard bushing setup? Hopefully it's the same that way you could just use the axle off your stock shock and not have to worry about width fitment as much


12.7mm (0.5 in) for Fox, zochhi, Elka and some RS; and 12mm for Manitou, some RS and others. I really doubt you can use your stock axle since the needle bearing should be thicker than a DU bushing, hence you´ll need a slighly thiner axle.

The tool meassures 11mm, as a previous poster said, so I think the axle should be around 11.5mm

Additional to this, Enduro axle is supposed to be made from a differente hardness for durability purposses; a hardness similar to that used on tools (rockwell hardness) and above stainless steel which is the material used on traditional axles.

EDIT: may the axle itself is what meassured 11mm, not the tool.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Acadian said:


> 11mm


Thanks!


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I just came back from testing my bike with the needle bearing installed and performance gained was significant. The needle bearing made my shock feel twice as smooth, took the edge off from most of the bumps that were more noticable without it and overall made me end my ride with a big grin on my face. They are totally worth it, especially if your suspension link that actuates the shock rotates considerably.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

tacubaya said:


> I just came back from testing my bike with the needle bearing installed and performance gained was significant. The needle bearing made my shock feel twice as smooth, took the edge off from most of the bumps that were more noticable without it and overall made me end my ride with a big grin on my face. They are totally worth it, especially if your suspension link that actuates the shock rotates considerably.


Did you just do one or both?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Only one, the front will be replaced with a polymer bushing.


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## juan pablo (Jan 17, 2007)

The bushing on my DHX is done and the Fox agent in Korea wants to rip me off completely. They wont supply me with a bushing and want to charge a fortune in labour. This sounds like and eggcelent option. Now to get it all shipped internationaly.
I take it the kit is complete with bearing, tool for fitting and the axle. So its pretty much ready to go? My bolt will stay the same?


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## Cable0guy (Jun 19, 2007)

juan pablo said:


> The bushing on my DHX is done and the Fox agent in Korea wants to rip me off completely. They wont supply me with a bushing and want to charge a fortune in labour. This sounds like and eggcelent option. Now to get it all shipped internationaly.
> I take it the kit is complete with bearing, tool for fitting and the axle. So its pretty much ready to go? My bolt will stay the same?


You use the same bolt. Assuming that the 22mm kit will fit your bike, you need to order 1 or 2 (depending on how many bushings you will be replacing). Tool kit is extra (something like $50), or you can use sockets, etc. with a vice or c-clamp to do it yourself.


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## silverlion (Jan 17, 2010)

Just my 2 pennies worth on if they'll hold up. I work at a prototype machine shop and we build our own bearings to use in various applications. You will never put enough strain on a needle bearing, when on a MTB, to make it fail. The bike will fail around the bearing. The aluminum body of the shock will deform before that bearing dies. Keep it sealed and lubed and it is bulletproof. A hint on the seals: no need for some fancy one way seals. An O-ring pressed(tightly) between the bearing and the flange is all you need. When you inspect your bike for wear, you will be able to see if the o-rings are cracking. They will last a long time and are a few cents to replace. As far as buying a kit, look online at places like McMaster- Carr for the bearings. If they don't have the size you need, they don't make it. Most needle bearings that size are around $8.00. You can either buy the o-rings from them or hit an auto parts store. They also sell sleeves and bushings so you can set it up for your application. $20.00 for the kit is fair, but you can do better by spending time on Carr's site and looking up everything yourself. Great place for many other things you thought you could never get. I'm not a pro rider but I am an engineer and machinist. Always remember: if it has been built, it can always be built better! 


OK, so it was more than 2 cents....


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## silverlion (Jan 17, 2010)

One more thing on the above supplier. They have springs galore, along with cable, seals abd bushings. You'll be surprized what you can find there.OK, I'm done now...


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

tacubaya said:


> I just came back from testing my bike with the needle bearing installed and performance gained was significant. The needle bearing made my shock feel twice as smooth, took the edge off from most of the bumps that were more noticable without it and overall made me end my ride with a big grin on my face. They are totally worth it, especially if your suspension link that actuates the shock rotates considerably.


Yep just got done with riding in the mtns (fricking ground was frozen 22 degrees so was the freeride line) and then in the valley. Amazing at how smooth it makes it as well as quick moving...

I rode locally but this weekend we headed up North for shuttling and some freeride and no issues at all. Super happy!!!!
:thumbsup:


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