# How long do you wait after rain?



## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

Probably been asked many times before but I'm just curious....Is there a rule of thumb? How long do you usually wait to ride? I'm talking about a fairly good soaking. We just had one on Sunday in my area and I'm jonzn already.....


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

It really depends on the general soil type of your region or riding area. Best to check in with your local IMBA club or trail organization for guidelines for your particular location.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Ditto. Local conditions vary widely. We have some trails that are better ridden during the rain storm.

It can also depend on how long it has been raining and the weather after it stops.

No hard and fast rules.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Around here its just a matter of trail selection and go ride. Sorry about the doubles??


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## Biggie (Dec 11, 2004)

*Hey Jeff*

Is your "Enter" key working?


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

I pretty much realize it's all about using good judgment.... I was just a little irritated the other day when I saw these 2guys unloading their gear and bikes not even 12 Hrs after a heavy rain. Was wondering if they planned on stickin to the parking lot but I doubt it.. 
I shoulda asked them I guess...


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## FlatFender (Aug 28, 2006)

I dont know if this is bad etiqite (sp?) or not, but I like to ride in the mud. I think its fun.


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## bigbadwimp (Sep 21, 2005)

Nucmedjim, where do you live? In my neck of the woods our soil is good and muddy and it seems to take a day or two to dry it up sufficiently. If it's nice and hot you might be good 24 hours later. If it's getting into fall and winter then you're waiting... When we visit my in-laws in North Carolina and I head to Pisgah or Dupont, it could've rained two hours ago and you'd be good to go because the sandy soil and well maintained trails shed water so well (I realize I'm exagerating a bit with two hours, but it's quick).

So how hot is it there? How much sun? What's your soil like? These are the kind of things you should be thinking about. My friends don't mind getting muddy but I cringe thinking about the possible damage we're doing. It's good to hear you have the same concerns.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

No waiting up here. Ride before the rain, during it, and after it.

But I love the fact that most people wait... for something... for some reason. They heard someone say one time that it is not a good idea to ride after the rain, so they all stay off the trails. I get them to myself.

I love the masses being supplied gross generalization. They just suck it up and obey.


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

FlatFender said:


> I dont know if this is bad etiqite (sp?) or not, but I like to ride in the mud. I think its fun.


I don't know if you're trolling or not, but you should check out IMBA's "rules of the trail."

Riding in mud may be fun, but it does a lot of damage.


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## Ricko (Jan 14, 2004)

A pretty general rule of thumb is to wait 24 hrs for every inch of rainfall although a few other factors come into play....soil composition and weather there's been much rainfall in the last week or two are a couple of things that come to mind. If you've had a lot of rain lately, 1" of rain is going to take longer to soak in then if it's been bone dry for the last few weeks.


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

bigbadwimp said:


> Nucmedjim, where do you live? In my neck of the woods our soil is good and muddy and it seems to take a day or two to dry it up sufficiently. If it's nice and hot you might be good 24 hours later. If it's getting into fall and winter then you're waiting... When we visit my in-laws in North Carolina and I head to Pisgah or Dupont, it could've rained two hours ago and you'd be good to go because the sandy soil and well maintained trails shed water so well (I realize I'm exagerating a bit with two hours, but it's quick).
> 
> So how hot is it there? How much sun? What's your soil like? These are the kind of things you should be thinking about. My friends don't mind getting muddy but I cringe thinking about the possible damage we're doing. It's good to hear you have the same concerns.


I'm in Newark, DE. We ride all over DE, PA, and MD... The DelawareTrail Spinners suggest 24 hrs after significant rain... But like I said I was just more irritated at seeing these dudes gettin ready to ride literally right after a big storm... It may be fun for some but it does screw up the trails that are so well kept otherwise. You've gotta use your nuggit.


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## FlyingMonkeySith (Aug 10, 2006)

On my ride yesterday, I started out with it raining, and then it stopped half way through my ride. By the time I got back to the parking lot my bike was covered in mud, as was I. isn’t that half the fun of mountain biking? You can’t experience things like that when you stick to the road.


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## lebikerboy (Jan 19, 2005)

Here in the North Vancouver evergreen rainforest, we ride no matter what the weather. Our organic soil doesn't seem to mind.


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## RomSpaceKnight (Aug 16, 2006)

Depends on local soil conditions. What season is it. Can trail stand up to use when wet. If it is a pay for use groomed trail use immediately.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Bad advice.....*



Ricko said:


> A pretty general rule of thumb is to wait 24 hrs for every inch of rainfall although a few other factors come into play....soil composition and weather there's been much rainfall in the last week or two are a couple of things that come to mind. If you've had a lot of rain lately, 1" of rain is going to take longer to soak in then if it's been bone dry for the last few weeks.


The length of time you wait depends entirely on where you're located and the specific soil of the region.

For example, riding in the Pacific NW would never happen based on your timeline.

Riding in Moab on Slickrock could happen during a 10" rainstorm without affecting the trail.


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

if you can ride on your lawn without damaging it then the trails should be ok


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## Brown_Teeth (Jan 15, 2004)

I can't wait for some rain, its a Cali thing if you live in sandy/shaleville


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## wickerman1 (Dec 24, 2003)

nucmedjim said:


> PHow long do you usually wait to ride? I'm talking about a fairly good soaking. We just had one on Sunday in my area and I'm jonzn already.....


Who said anything about waiting? I ride when it rains, after whenever. I love riding in the rain... tons of fun, and makes things interesting... but wear your armour because you will fall


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## dumpy (Apr 17, 2005)

*use your head*

if its been dry for 2 weeks you might still hit a patch where riding will cause too much erosion and walking will be a good idea (happens to me all the time), yet it might be raining and you can ride without tearing up the trails... soil composition, current weather, past weather, trail drainage, ect. all come into play, just use your head... if you causing excess erosion STOP!... don't cause unneeded damage to trails and the respectability of our sport.
yet it might seem like a bad time to ride and actually be ok.... just use good judgement and keep an eye on the trail and your effect on it... if you do this you should be ok


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

It depends on the local conditions and the types of trails. We've had a good deluge here in the last while. The lower elevation (down in the bottom of a river valley) trails can be muddy for days while the upper ones are ready to go the next.

I agree fully, though....use common sense to decide when to ride so that your trails will last.


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## SS-Rider (Feb 27, 2006)

About 3 days I've seen hikers start to complain about MTBers tearing the trails up so I try not to give them a excuse.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

if hard and just slick due to rain I will ride during the rain.

If its soft and squishy and I am rutting I will stop(i have done this twice).

Pine forest help out a good bit.


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## hanshananigan (May 15, 2006)

Hoo boy am I torn on this issue... 

Personally, I would like to see people exercise restraint when it comes to riding on soggy multi-use trails. On bike-only trails, I say ride in all conditions!

PROs of riding in rain:
First, I think about how fun it is to ride when wet and muddy.
Second, I think that riding when wet build up skills that can be used during races or when I get stuck in a shower - do they ever cancel races due to a light/moderate rain within the past 24hrs?

CONs of riding in rain (besides the obvious increased risk of crashing and getting mud in your car):
"Rip up the trail" - true, I guess. I suppose it has a lot to do with the local soil, as other have stated. But what's more of an eyesore and pain for hikers - a 3'x5' area of mud with tracks OR log piles, drainage ditches, support walls, jumps, see-saws, etc? Also, if a spot is prone to pooling water, perhaps a local bike club could build a small bridge, or route around the low spot? Hikers would probably appreciate that.


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## bigbore (May 11, 2006)

depends on saturation.

Mid summer when it was hot out, and it hadnt rained in a few weeks, if we got a day or two of rain, i found that i could go out the same night or the very next day even in the morning and everything would be perfect, not bone dry but just wet enough to give you grip.

Now, fall is settling in, rain is more abundant and if it rains half a day i cant go out and ride until the day after, and theres still puddles in sections of trail.

Its all about ground saturation.


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

I think another reason I try to avoid the local trails when muddy is the fact that we have really slick snot pretending to be mud here....just not worth it unless you like paddling along a trail.


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## lexusandbimmerz (Nov 9, 2005)

Personally i like riding in the mud, my friend and i go "muddin" very often. I bought a pair of maxxis swampthings cuz i place i ride is sooo hard to bike on. ITs a very narrow trail and the mud starts out about 3-5 inches deep its really sloshy but it moves onto clay like thick gooey stuff.


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

It's a little alarming how many people are posting up about how they like to ride in the mud. Yeah, it can add some challenge, and maybe it takes you back to being a kid and all, but really...don't do it. 

For starters, riding in mud creates ruts, holes and bogs. Ever notice how low spots on the trail take longer to dry out? It is because they don't drain well. Riding through those spots makes it worse. Once the "bog" has been created, people start riding around it. That leads to trail widening. Pretty soon, you have a big mud hole in the trail that takes two weeks longer to dry out than it should. This is exactly the thing that people point to when they want to get bikes banned from the trails. 

My "home" trail is a stream valley. It's a pretty sensitive trail system. People routinely ride it when it's too soft and the damage is immediate and obvious. As a result, there are sections of the trail that are basically an impassible swamp for a better part of the year. 

Do some reading on trail access issues to get a sense of what is at stake here. Ride the roads or a rail/trail if its too wet to ride, or go somewhere rocky and ride there. But please, stay out of the mud.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

notrelatedtoted said:


> It's a little alarming how many people are posting up about how they like to ride in the mud. Yeah, it can add some challenge, and maybe it takes you back to being a kid and all, but really...don't do it.
> 
> For starters, riding in mud creates ruts, holes and bogs. Ever notice how low spots on the trail take longer to dry out? It is because they don't drain well. Riding through those spots makes it worse. Once the "bog" has been created, people start riding around it. That leads to trail widening. Pretty soon, you have a big mud hole in the trail that takes two weeks longer to dry out than it should. This is exactly the thing that people point to when they want to get bikes banned from the trails.
> 
> ...


Yes please. Stay out of the mud. Don't ride after rain. I will tell you when it is OK to ride because I will be out riding in it while you are at home wondering about it! I love the new "don't ride in the mud" policy. It keeps people off the trails up here all the time and I have it all to myself.

:thumbsup:

DISCLAIMER: That is just for me and my location!


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## Sprocketeer (Feb 22, 2004)

2 days unless the surface has a lot of sand, gravel, or limestone in it.


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## titleist990dci (Jun 16, 2006)

I try and let the trails dry out some before I ride. Due to my schedule I have to ride when I can, so sometimes I might go a little sooner than normal after it rains. My local trails aren't a lot of fun to ride when they get wet..a lot of roots and rocks so I really don't like it when it's wet. Also, there are several mud holes that have gotten worse, I believe because people ride too often when it's wet. I walk through those sections when it's wet because it's true that the more people ride around the mud holes, the wider those sections seem to get.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

I wait about five to ten minutes. Then I can't control myself and RIDE!


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## olsons5 (Nov 3, 2005)

I like to ride during and immediately following a rain storm on a paticular local trail. I think it helps smooth out the giant divets the horses leave on the trail.


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> Yes please. Stay out of the mud. Don't ride after rain. I will tell you when it is OK to ride because I will be out riding in it while you are at home wondering about it! I love the new "don't ride in the mud" policy. It keeps people off the trails up here all the time and I have it all to myself.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> DISCLAIMER: That is just for me and my location!


I'm not necessarily saying "don't ride after rain." I'm saying don't ride in the mud. We have trails in my area that are 90% rocks and roots that you could ride in the middle of a monsoon.

If you're out riding in the mud - I think you need to educate yourself, and more importantly, think beyond yourself and what YOU want to do. From your responses, it sounds like you think this all just mindless herd mentality. Ask the people who are fighting the access battles, maintaining the trails and keeping them open for YOU to ride on. Ask them how much of a herd there is...and they'll tell you there are far less people than there should be.


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## RobW (Jan 18, 2004)

There are two trails within 15 miles of my location, and I would ride one of them 6 hours after a heavy rain, while I'd give the other one three or four days...


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

notrelatedtoted said:


> I'm not necessarily saying "don't ride after rain." I'm saying don't ride in the mud. We have trails in my area that are 90% rocks and roots that you could ride in the middle of a monsoon.
> 
> If you're out riding in the mud - I think you need to educate yourself, and more importantly, think beyond yourself and what YOU want to do. From your responses, it sounds like you think this all just mindless herd mentality. Ask the people who are fighting the access battles, maintaining the trails and keeping them open for YOU to ride on. Ask them how much of a herd there is...and they'll tell you there are far less people than there should be.


Boy... you aren't going to like me much. My philosophies toward riding and trails and access are a lot different than yours are.

The only trail that I am not riding in the rain or after a rain, is the one that is so muddy that my wheels won't turn anymore after 10 feet on the trail. Other than that, mud is fun.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

Things are different in different places. I love riding in the mud. We have an abundance of mud here in Oregon. I don't ride trails that are closed. There are plenty of places here that you can ride in the mud for days and not see another person.


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*Self-centeredness*



29Colossus said:


> Boy... you aren't going to like me much. My philosophies toward riding and trails and access are a lot different than yours are.
> 
> The only trail that I am not riding in the rain or after a rain, is the one that is so muddy that my wheels won't turn anymore after 10 feet on the trail. Other than that, mud is fun.


Well, you're certainly entitled to ride whenever you please, but the self-centeredness of your position on this is the very thing that makes people biatch about how MTBers ruin the trails. Mud is certainly fun. Even better is having to navigate the ruts that either freeze over or harden up after people ride through the mud. 

It's not always about you.

Bob


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> Well, you're certainly entitled to ride whenever you please, but the self-centeredness of your position on this is the very thing that makes people biatch about how MTBers ruin the trails. Mud is certainly fun. Even better is having to navigate the ruts that either freeze over or harden up after people ride through the mud.
> 
> It's not always about you.
> 
> Bob


I know... it's just horrible isn't it? I am so evil.

The system is a joke, and it doesn't work. It is based on false assumptions and false science. It is not saving trails or opening trails because ALL trails are open, and none need to be saved.

I don't care about trail "maintenance", and I don't care about the organizations that fight for trails or access or whatever it is they feel they have to fight for. I don't buy into idea of "trail damage". I don't buy into the idea of "trail access". I don't buy into the herd mentality of the mountain biker. I don't buy into the herd mentality that is the mountain biking activist, or the anti-mountain biking activist. I believe it to all be one big sad joke from a bunch of losers with too much time and money on their hands.

Self-centered? You bet. In the face of absolute madness for decades, there is no better place to be but centered in one's self. So in the end, concerning mountainbiking, it IS always about me.

That's rough, isn't it?


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## mattbikeboy (Jun 8, 2004)

Around Las Vegas (Cottonwood in particular) you can ride most trails before, during and after rain. Bootleg is probably better and has less clay than Cottonwood. We also get so little rain around here that a decent storm will soak everything and get absorbed very quickly, even in the heavier clay areas -- unless we have storms like in the winter of '05 when we had the once in a lifetime amount of rain. Our trails in Mud Springs and Red Valley were muddy for weeks.

In normal years there are only a couple of places with lots of clay that get real slimey and will rut very quickly when ridden in the wet - mainly flat trail so the riders increasing the rate of erosion is minimal. The cool thing is its only a couple of hundred feet in the Mud Springs area and a hundred feet or so in Red Valley (more of threat of erosion than Mud Springs). Mostly the sandy soil drains very quickly and the main thing riders have to watch out for is lightning and flash floods.

The main rule is to know what your riding on and ride appropriately. It is pretty easy to tell if you're sinking in and damaging to the trail. :nono: 

mbb


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

Wow, it seems I've opened a can of worms. Like I said earlier; common sense is best way to go. But Riding muddy trails in my area can reek havoc on them and I was pissed to see these guys goin at it after a monsoon like rain. THe last thing I need is for them to start making our trails: NO BIKE TRAILS. So you've gotta use some judgement.


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

shiggy said:


> Ditto. Local conditions vary widely. We have some trails that are better ridden during the rain storm.
> 
> It can also depend on how long it has been raining and the weather after it stops.
> 
> No hard and fast rules.


+1...My home trails are sandy, hardpacked forest...the rain just filters through...even after 2 days of rain, they're perfect for riding, no problem with causing erosion, tires grip as good as dry, and they're actually firmer and faster when wet

Different story on the other side of the bay...mud, slimy roots and rocks, bridges covered with slime...probably the most dangerous trails in our area when wet and bike tires cause erosion in the clay, especially on the climbs


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## mzungo (Sep 14, 2004)

*What*

Hell this is England we dont get after the rain...just rain.


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

This guy is a TROLL. Don't bother with him. 

(Your idiocy knows no bounds colossus.)


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

That SUX


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

mzungo said:


> Hell this is England we dont get after the rain...just rain.


Did my commute in a thunderstorm this morning in Toronto...heck, it's only water


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> Boy... you aren't going to like me much. My philosophies toward riding and trails and access are a lot different than yours are.
> 
> The only trail that I am not riding in the rain or after a rain, is the one that is so muddy that my wheels won't turn anymore after 10 feet on the trail. Other than that, mud is fun.


Who knows? I might like you just fine. But what are your philosophies? Is it that, as a taxpayer, it's your god-given right to do whatever you want on public lands and however you want to do it? Do those same philosophies apply to four-wheelers and dirtbikes?

And philosophies aside, what happens when everyone starts riding your trails in the mud? Would you rather ride in an eroded, muddy ditch or some bufff singletrack? You fail to see that some of this "herd mentality" is designed to protect what you enjoy doing, and that what you're advocating is contrary to your own enjoyment.



29Colossus said:


> I don't care about trail "maintenance", and I don't care about the organizations that fight for trails or access or whatever it is they feel they have to fight for. I don't buy into idea of "trail damage". I don't buy into the idea of "trail access". I don't buy into the herd mentality of the mountain biker. I don't buy into the herd mentality that is the mountain biking activist, or the anti-mountain biking activist. I believe it to all be one big sad joke from a bunch of losers with too much time and money on their hands.


Pretending that the rest of the world isn't there won't make it go away. But if you do whatever you want regardless of what a sign or a law says, then I guess it doesn't really matter, does it? Well, except for the rest of us get left with the mess you made.


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

The state or whoever has the authority will just end up closing your trails to bikers
and eventually you'll get your bike taken or ticketed. Then you'll be buying into getting it back.


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## muddydc (Feb 26, 2004)

During the summer months I like to wait a couple days but during the winter and fall I ride in the rain and slap the fenders on. I live in Washington.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Locoman said:


> This guy is a TROLL. Don't bother with him.
> 
> (Your idiocy knows no bounds colossus.)


Did you just come here to cry and point fingers, or do you have something to offer to the topic?


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

You are the man! (or woman!?).



29Colossus said:


> I know... it's just horrible isn't it? I am so evil.
> 
> The system is a joke, and it doesn't work. It is based on false assumptions and false science. It is not saving trails or opening trails because ALL trails are open, and none need to be saved.
> 
> ...


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## 24601 (Aug 25, 2004)

Here in North Texas we have super hard black dirt. If you ride when it is muddy, it ruts, and when it dries the ruts are still there but hard as concrete (no exxageration). It can litterally make a trail unrideable. Trail stewards often go out and try to break down the tips before it dries. 

Of course, some people are so dense they will actually tear down caution tape blocking a muddy trail, or even a trail under construction. I guess idiocy knows no bounds.

I realize in some areas a muddy or wet trail is fine, but here you ruin it for everybody.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

notrelatedtoted said:


> Who knows? I might like you just fine. But what are your philosophies? Is it that, as a taxpayer, it's your god-given right to do whatever you want on public lands and however you want to do it? Do those same philosophies apply to four-wheelers and dirtbikes?


Bicycles don't harm trails, they make trails. Some trails go through more transition than others. Some are not sustainable from the beginning, and some are. Some people like them to be one way, and some like them another way.



> And philosophies aside, what happens when everyone starts riding your trails in the mud?


What do you think people did for years until the PC bike brigade came to term in the mid-90s? People got muddy, and trails got ridden in the mud. Those trails are still in my backyard and yours. They are still great trails that don't need anyone walking up and down them with a shovel to make them something they resist being. Some diminish, and some burgeon. It is the way it is supposed to be.



> Would you rather ride in an eroded, muddy ditch or some bufff singletrack?


I like both please. Give it all to me. I can make the transition that the trail makes in it's own definition and life. I don't need it a certain way... without this lump or that rut... I like it all.



> You fail to see that some of this "herd mentality" is designed to protect what you enjoy doing, and that what you're advocating is contrary to your own enjoyment.


No it isn't. Close ALL trails right now. That would be fine with me. I would just ride all of them without the worry of what was open or what wasn't. Bikes don't hurt trails. They just help make them what they are in all their great forms.



> Pretending that the rest of the world isn't there won't make it go away. But if you do whatever you want regardless of what a sign or a law says, then I guess it doesn't really matter, does it? Well, except for the rest of us get left with the mess you made.


Yeah... right. What a joke. The only thing that ruins the trails I ride are bulldozers and golf courses and 10,000 square foot homes. Ride a trail for 20 years without skidding, or pulling off-trail homer moves, or cutting drops into unsustainable areas, or, PC-bike-thug forbid, ride in the freaking mud.... and watch it get plowed over for the next new road or water line or electrical line or house. Spread your blood on the hills of hidden valleys building the most perfect trails man has made for bikers to ride, only to have their eventual popularity regulated by hikers and tourism... and greed. Mess? Yeah.. big mess.

Pretend the rest of the world ISN'T there? Pffft... All I see while riding trails is the rest of the world. They don't care about skidding and mud and trails and ruts. All they care about is themselves and the mighty machine. It doesn't have to go away, but I don't have to play it's screwed up little game either. I don't have to abide by it's law, and it correctness. I don't have to believe in it. I can be willing to accept the ramifications for my actions be there any. There rarely is in my experience.

There is no "mess" that anyone is left. That is the great PC scam in the history of mountainbiking. Riders have fallen into the dark land of appeasment through their own decision to be unequal to other trail users... to fight for something they don't have to fight for... to agree with people that have no basis for the points they make... no reasoning but to control others.

When the police stop showing up at your door 5 minutes after you dial 911, ALL trails will once agian be free for everyone to ride. Until then, I will enjoy riding from the perspective of what I have learned from it instead of micro-managing my experience into the feelings of everyone else.

Selfish? Sure. But I am having so much fun riding now that I just can't care at this point about the ignorance of others and how my biking makes them feel. And in the end, the trails are still there. Some have changed, and some haven't. Nothing I have ever done, or anyone has ever done riding, has made a difference in that.


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

my daughter is a Park Superintendant and Warden with The Ontario Ministry of Nartural Resouces, Parks Ontario, and tells me that erosion is her major concern...so much that she's thinking of banning bikes and hikers from her conservation areas.

The problem is mostly on the hills...Bikes cause major erosion on the climbs, hikers on the descents. Wheels loosen the dirt going up, boots going down...the rain does the rest


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

JM01 said:


> my daughter is a Park Superintendant and Warden with The Ontario Ministry of Nartural Resouces, Parks Ontario, and tells me that erosion is her major concern...so much that she's thinking of banning bikes and hikers from her conservation areas.
> 
> The problem is mostly on the hills...Bikes cause major erosion on the climbs, hikers on the descents. Wheels loosen the dirt going up, boots going down...the rain does the rest


OMG the travesty! You mean to tell me that there is some loose dirt on the trail? I think she should close that trail immediately to all human use of any kind. I mean... the "erosion"!



This type of stuff is so futile it is beyond reason. Damn the rivers now! Just look at the erosion!


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

This guy is a TROLL. Don't bother with him.

(Your idiocy knows no bounds colossus.)


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

*I found a pic*



29Colossus said:


> OMG the travesty! You mean to tell me that there is some loose dirt on the trail? I think she should close that trail immediately to all human use of any kind. I mean... the "erosion"!
> 
> 
> 
> This type of stuff is so futile it is beyond reason. Damn the rivers now! Just look at the erosion!


I found a pic of Colossus showing off his mad mud riding skills to his family.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Locoman said:


> I found a pic of Colossus showing off his mad mud riding skills to his family.


And I am a troll? :skep:


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> Bicycles don't harm trails, they make trails. Some trails go through more transition than others. Some are not sustainable from the beginning, and some are. Some people like them to be one way, and some like them another way.
> 
> What do you think people did for years until the PC bike brigade came to term in the mid-90s? People got muddy, and trails got ridden in the mud. Those trails are still in my backyard and yours. They are still great trails that don't need anyone walking up and down them with a shovel to make them something they resist being. Some diminish, and some burgeon. It is the way it is supposed to be.
> 
> ...


Turning this into a tirade about "them" and their "mighty machine" just smacks of someone who doesn't want to step up and take on any social or civil responsibility. You've admitted that since there are no immediate, tangible consequences for you, you'll continue to do what you want. Ultimately, I think that's what this boils down to: doing what you want to do and coming up with arguments to justify yourself later on. Not exactly a principled position.

Regarding trails "transitioning," "transition" just means change. Change, contrary to the popular cliche, is not always good. And when it's bad, people look to fix it. Sometimes this involves closing trails to bikes. But I guess that doesn't matter to you, because you ride them anyways. It's a win-win situation for you.

I'll stop there - I'd go on about getting access or whatever throught the proper channels, but that involves "them" and their "mighty machine" and how we shouldn't be slaves to society or something.



I'm gonna go listen to some Linkin Park.


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## Bawitdaba (Sep 9, 2005)

I must not have gotten the memo...we were supposed to wait???


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

I ride muddy, dry, frozen, showy, mt st helens ashy, rocky, rutted trails and roads. None of the trails in my area are ever closed. They are all on private property with permission to ride. The land owners (myself included) love that my friends and I carve their Elk trails into usable trails for their use.

To generalize that ALL muddy trails are damaged by bikes is ignorant and lacks credibility.
<o> </o>
Some, not all, some trails should be preserved for everyone to use, but not many.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

notrelatedtoted said:


> Turning this into a tirade about "them" and their "mighty machine" just smacks of someone who doesn't want to step up and take on any social or civil responsibility. You've admitted that since there are no immediate, tangible consequences for you, you'll continue to do what you want. Ultimately, I think that's what this boils down to: doing what you want to do and coming up with arguments to justify yourself later on. Not exactly a principled position.


If you say so.



> Regarding trails "transitioning," "transition" just means change. Change, contrary to the popular cliche, is not always good. And when it's bad, people look to fix it. Sometimes this involves closing trails to bikes. But I guess that doesn't matter to you, because you ride them anyways. It's a win-win situation for you.


That is your opinion, not mine. I don't believe that trail transition is bad.



> I'll stop there - I'd go on about getting access or whatever throught the proper channels, but that involves "them" and their "mighty machine" and how we shouldn't be slaves to society or something.


Good plan to stop there because anymore would be wasted on me. I don't recognize your "proper channels". I don't play that game.



> I'm gonna go listen to some Linkin Park.


Not me. I'm going to go ride in the mud. It has been raining all day.

:thumbsup:


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## notrelatedtoted (Mar 3, 2005)

OregonXC said:


> I ride muddy, dry, frozen, showy, mt st helens ashy, rocky, rutted trails and roads. None of the trails in my area are ever closed. They are all on private property with permission to ride. The land owners (myself included) love that my friends and I carve their Elk trails into usable trails for their use.
> 
> To generalize that ALL muddy trails are damaged by bikes is ignorant and lacks credibility.
> <o> </o>
> Some, not all, some trails should be preserved for everyone to use, but not many.


I thought it was pretty clear that we were talking about public lands, not private lands. If the land owner has no problem with you riding in the mud, then go ahead.

I'm not speaking in absolutes here. The OP asked for a rule of thumb. My rule of thumb, and probably most mtbers, is don't ride on muddy trails. How muddy? That's a judgment call. Are there trails that can be ridden muddy with no damage? Again, that's a judgment call. although I've never seen such a trail, but whatever.

What I'm taking issue with is the lackadasical attitude that has popped up in this thread regarding trail issues.


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## nucmedjim (Sep 11, 2006)

Agreed Notrelatedtoed. I just don't want trails I love so much to ride and have such easy access to to become Illegal to mtb'ing. I guess some people are above or don't have to consider any penalties for their ignorant action. Must be nice. But around here a little RESPECT goes a ways. I've got no problem with that.


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> OMG the travesty! You mean to tell me that there is some loose dirt on the trail? I think she should close that trail immediately to all human use of any kind. I mean... the "erosion"!
> 
> 
> 
> This type of stuff is so futile it is beyond reason. Damn the rivers now! Just look at the erosion!


You one those jerks that abuse the trails and give MTB'ers a bad rep?...or is it because your head is zippered up the back?

Her area of concern are the eliptical sand dune formations, a protected micro bioshere, one of only 2 such formations in Canada. It's home to a herd of 500 deer and 20 unique species of plants that can only be found here.

Its still open to biking and hiking, but because it's a sand formation which has become a packed forest floor, it's easily damaged, and when exposed, the rain erosion is devastating.

We had a couple of locals go through these trails on an ATV a couple of years ago and it took her 2 years to restore the resulting damage.

It's +100km of singletrack, 5 minutes from my front door, but we're on notice that our days may be numbered if extensive use causes increased erosion.

Glad you don't bike around here.:madmax:


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

JM01 said:


> You one those jerks that abuse the trails and give MTB'ers a bad rep?...or is it because your head is zippered up the back?


I very well might be. I don't really know. Not all that interested either way.



> Her area of concern are the eliptical sand dune formations, a protected micro bioshere, one of only 2 such formations in Canada. It's home to a herd of 500 deer and 20 unique species of plants that can only be found here.


HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! The sand formations! The deer! The unique species of plants! Mountainbikers will certainly kill all the deer and plants... and the sand... OMG the SAND!



Do you drive a car? Yeah... I thought so.



> Its still open to biking and hiking, but because it's a sand formation which has become a packed forest floor, it's easily damaged, and when exposed, the rain erosion is devastating.


I am not sure what I would do if the sand was messed up. That would sure be "devastating"....



> We had a couple of locals go through these trails on an ATV a couple of years ago and it took her 2 years to restore the resulting damage.


What damage? The damage to the sand? The formation? Does the formation look like a big toilet or what?



> It's +100km of singletrack, 5 minutes from my front door, but we're on notice that our days may be numbered if extensive use causes increased erosion.


Best just shut it down. 100km of singletrack that will most certainly kill 500 deer and 20 unique plant species... not to mention the sand formation! Wind blew that sand for years! To mess that up would surely cause the planet's gravity to change polls.



> Glad you don't bike around here.:madmax:


You don't know where I bike, but if I biked there, you wouldn't have a freakin' clue I was there. If you were there, I would kick sand into your eyes from your precious toilet sand formation. 

RUN! THE CRYPTOBIOTIC CRUST IS ATTACKING!

_We should have never let it take over! Now it wants us too!!!!_

I think you should sell your bike. The damage that you cause is just over the top. Close it down... close it all down now.


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## normZurawski (Mar 30, 2006)

JM01 said:


> Her area of concern are the eliptical sand dune formations, a protected micro bioshere, one of only 2 such formations in Canada. It's home to a herd of 500 deer and 20 unique species of plants that can only be found here.


If this place is such a sanctuary, why is open to bikers and hikers?

29Colossus does make some valid points. You get 1 nasty hurricane in a 10 year span and it will do more damage than all the bikers in a 50 year stretch.You have entire sides of hills wiped after 12 hours of torrential rain.


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*Twisted logic*



normZurawski said:


> 29Colossus does make some valid points. You get 1 nasty hurricane in a 10 year span and it will do more damage than all the bikers in a 50 year stretch.


So if I follow your logic, the trails will be damaged by the hurricane, so the issue of preservation goes out the window. I guess that if a hurricaine and it's imminent destruction are inevitable facts, then I should be able to go to NO or any other hurricaine prone area and destroy houses. I mean, heck, if a hurricaine is going to destry them any way, why not just have some fun destroying them myself. After all, it's all about *ME*....right?

Glad we got this one settled. :thumbsup:


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

normZurawski said:


> If this place is such a sanctuary, why is open to bikers and hikers?
> 
> 29Colossus does make some valid points. You get 1 nasty hurricane in a 10 year span and it will do more damage than all the bikers in a 50 year stretch.You have entire sides of hills wiped after 12 hours of torrential rain.


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=226957

Its part of the Ontario Parks system and is considered a conservation area...no camping, camp fires, motorized vehicles...but is OK for Biking and Hiking, with part of it being used for XC skiing when the ground freezes....the only rules are that we have to stay on the trails and not bug the deer

I don't understand the thing about hurricanes...you think that it's OK to abuse the trails because weather can do more damage?...we had a tornado come through the trails a couple on months ago, knocked down a lot of trees...so its OK for me to rip through now and destroy them some more?

I don't get it...but at least the kid keeps them safe and hopefully they'll last for another 100,000 years


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## normZurawski (Mar 30, 2006)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> So if I follow your logic, the trails will be damaged by the hurricane, so the issue of preservation goes out the window. I guess that if a hurricaine and it's imminent destruction are inevitable facts, then I should be able to go to NO or any other hurricaine prone area and destroy houses. I mean, heck, if a hurricaine is going to destry them any way, why not just have some fun destroying them myself. After all, it's all about *ME*....right?
> 
> Glad we got this one settled. :thumbsup:


I'm not implying that we should ignore all community rules because we're all going to die anyway. I still shower every day even though I know I'll stink soon enough. My point is that he does make *some* good points. I think some get overly concerned about a little loose gravel when natural causes change the landscape regardless. No matter what we do, things change. It's the nature of...well, nature. I'm not advocating it's ok to bring a rototiller biking with you.


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## normZurawski (Mar 30, 2006)

JM01 said:


> Its part of the Ontario Parks system and is considered a conservation area...no camping, camp fires, motorized vehicles...but is OK for Biking and Hiking, with part of it being used for XC skiing when the ground freezes....the only rules are that we have to stay on the trails and not bug the deer
> 
> I don't understand the thing about hurricanes...you think that it's OK to abuse the trails because weather can do more damage?...we had a tornado come through the trails a couple on months ago, knocked down a lot of trees...so its OK for me to rip through now and destroy them some more?
> 
> I don't get it...but at least the kid keeps them safe and hopefully they'll last for another 100,000 years


I still don't understand why it's even open to hikers and bikers, other than the access-helps-prevent-sprawl idea.

I tried to explain the point about hurricanes to Clyde. Again, not advocating mass damage is ok. But most of what we do bike bike/foot gets wiped out by nature. There are exceptions. But I feel a lot of these quibbles are not worth the time spent quibbling.


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

normZurawski said:


> I still don't understand why it's even open to hikers and bikers, other than the access-helps-prevent-sprawl idea.


Huh?

Its open to bikers and hikers because MNR know that we *respect* the trails...as soon as we get people who abuse these trails, they will be closed.

they're part of a larger trail sytem that we bike up here...I'm on sections 20-23 of this system, but can bike the whole thing in a week or so...

http://www.ganaraska-hiking-trail.ca/Ganaraska trail map new 12.04.bmp

we can also bike here:

http://www.brucetrail.org/explorethetrail.asp?id={459E67E1-7954-433E-B457-71C6BBDD2A5D}

and here:

http://www.waterfronttrail.org/trail.html

as long as we do not destroy the trails and show courtesy to the other users

Jeez


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## [CrazyRick_11] (May 14, 2006)

i usually dont wait very long, the trails i normally ride are also used by ATV's and dirtbikes fo the wreking of the trail usually come from them.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

You make the false assumption that bikers will destroy trails. Simply not the case. If I am wrong, present evidence. Most of the MTBrs I've met in the last 20 years have been the most respectful people when it comes to nature and others right to enjoy.

To close trails because a few go off and do stupid things is crazy. I can take you on at least three hiking-only trails here and I will show you where people have hiked off the trail to take a dump and left TP along with it. These same trails have signs completely destroyed by guns. Maybe we should close all trails to humans because in every group there are idiots. In fact there are a lot of people not respecting the rules of the road. Maybe we should close them down too.



JM01 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Its open to bikers and hikers because MNR know that we *respect* the trails...as soon as we get people who abuse these trails, they will be closed.
> 
> ...


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> So if I follow your logic, the trails will be damaged by the hurricane, so the issue of preservation goes out the window.


That is the problem right there. Kicking bikers off of trails is NOT preservation. Preservation is NOT being practiced. If it was, mountainbikers and sand formations would not be the focus. Deer of all things would not be the focus.  DEER!? Ridiculous. Mountain bikes don't hurt deer! Deer don't break their legs running away from bikes in the woods... most deer just stand there chewing. Plants?? Are these plants in the middle of the trail or something? Are mountain bikes killing the plants 10 feet off the trail? It is so ridiculous that it smacks of American PC brainwashing. _...News at 11:00, mountain bikes kill 20 species of unique plants... _



> I guess that if a hurricaine and it's imminent destruction are inevitable facts, then I should be able to go to NO or any other hurricaine prone area and destroy houses. I mean, heck, if a hurricaine is going to destry them any way, why not just have some fun destroying them myself. After all, it's all about *ME*....right?


No, because mountain bikes don't cause damage. Mountain bikes don't destroy anything.... unless turning an irrelevant portion of sand into dust qualifies as destruction to you. It doesn't to me.

It is all one big joke.


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

OregonXC said:


> You make the false assumption that bikers will destroy trails. Simply not the case. If I am wrong, present evidence. Most of the MTBrs I've met in the last 20 years have been the most respectful people when it comes to nature and others right to enjoy.
> 
> To close trails because a few go off and do stupid things is crazy. I can take you on at least three hiking-only trails here and I will show you where people have hiked off the trail to take a dump and left TP along with it. These same trails have signs completely destroyed by guns. Maybe we should close all trails to humans because in every group there are idiots. In fact there are a lot of people not respecting the rules of the road. Maybe we should close them down too.


no...if I thought that, I wouldn't be on them...

...I'm refering to a specific trail here, the one my kid manages. Her position is that it's OK for biking until the bikers begin to cause damage that results in erosion, then they will have to curtail access, first in the most fragile areas, then all of them if necessary.

She works for the Ministry of Natural Resouces and her first responsibility is to preserve these conservation areas for future generations...we're not talking about rules or stupid people, just trying to preserve a rare and unique environment for the future in the name of Ontario taxpayers.

So, we can use it until it can no longer sustain us...a more accurate comparison would be the cod fishery of Newfoundland, or the whaling industry ...when was the last time you cooked up a dodo or passenger pigeon for dinner?


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> Deer of all things would not be the focus.  DEER!? Ridiculous. Mountain bikes don't hurt deer! No, because mountain bikes don't cause damage. Mountain bikes don't destroy anything.... unless turning an irrelevant portion of sand into dust qualifies as destruction to you. It doesn't to me.
> 
> It is all one big joke.


you a city boy?

we have a problem this time of year and in the spring...its deer mating season and bikes and hikers spook them and distrupt their activities, and when they have their fawns in the spring, scaring them causes even more problems...hence the MNR rules..."don't bug the deer"...we're guests in their home here

and, next time you're out on the trails...its not hard not to spot the damage caused by bikes, especially if you're riding clay or sandy conditions...turning an irrelevant portion of sand into dust qualifies as destruction as the rain and run-off amplifies the damage that you cause

we ask people with attitudes like yours to use the for-profit bike centres up here...you litter your streets and break wind in crowded elevators too?


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

We have problem around here with the deer, as well. The hunters from the city try to kill them and eat them. Most of the time they trespass on private property and leave a disgusting mess.

Oh but it is their RIGHT to hunt isn't it? I can give many more examples of groups of people who damage the trails and nature without accountability. You should see the size of the clear-cut I am looking at right at this moment.



JM01 said:


> you a city boy?
> 
> we have a problem this time of year and in the spring...its deer mating season and bikes and hikers spook them and distrupt their activities, and when they have their fawns in the spring, scaring them causes even more problems...hence the MNR rules..."don't bug the deer"...we're guests in their home here
> 
> ...


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

OregonXC said:


> We have problem around here with the deer, as well. The hunters from the city try to kill them and eat them. Most of the time they trespass on private property and leave a disgusting mess.
> 
> Oh but it is their RIGHT to hunt isn't it? I can give many more examples of groups of people who damage the trails and nature without accountability. You should see the size of the clear-cut I am looking at right at this moment.


We're typing bikes and trails here...leave messy hunters, loggers, damaged nature, etc. to another thread...these groups have no business here

Point is that bikes do cause erosion, no way of getting around it...if you don't care, that's another matter


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

JM01 said:


> you a city boy?


:skep:



> we have a problem this time of year and in the spring...its deer mating season and bikes and hikers spook them and distrupt their activities, and when they have their fawns in the spring, scaring them causes even more problems...hence the MNR rules..."don't bug the deer"...we're guests in their home here


:lol:

HILARIOUS!

Deer mating season? What a joke. Do you have any idea how many deer there are? We have to hand out special permits to allow hunters to thin herds all the time. Do you drive a car? Have you ever seen dead deer on the side of the road? Deer are "disrupted"? That is a knee-slapper. And OMG! The fawns. They just go crazy in fear... :skep: They get so frightened that they kill themselves trying to get away??? I see deer on almost all of my rides. They are about as concerned with me as I am with them... not at all.

Where do you people come up with this crap?? "Don't bug the deer".... ? :lol: Deer going into shock from fear, and not eating and becoming weak... Frightened deer running in the woods and becoming disoriented and falling off of cliffs... Fawns stumbling over their own legs and killing themselves on fences in desperate attempts to quell their fear??? Are we talking about the same animals here? These are deer right? The same animal we smash by the thousands in cars every year? The same animal that mates and has offspring virtually next to nailguns and chopsaws and jack-hammers not to mention Fords and Chevrolets.... 



> and, next time you're out on the trails...its not hard not to spot the damage caused by bikes, especially if you're riding clay or sandy conditions...turning an irrelevant portion of sand into dust qualifies as destruction as the rain and run-off amplifies the damage that you cause


More ample serving of BS. What IS a trail but damage? Next time I am out on the trails? That is everyday. I have been riding some trails for decades. Just because I can see a tire track doesn't mean that the trail is being "destroyed". Water runs down winter trails all mud season long around here... right down the middle most of the time. It takes about a week of bikes riding on it to buff it up... what isn't buff, gets handled with a simple water bar diversion if someone desires. If the trail can't be sustained that way, it changes. I have no problem with that.

I am pleased that you feel the way you do. Maybe more will follow your lead and judge every ride based on your perceptions of preservation and conservation. It just means the trails have less users while I am out there turning sand to dust with my 2" tires.... Ohhh the travesty!!!



> we ask people with attitudes like yours to use the for-profit bike centres up here...you litter your streets and break wind in crowded elevators too?


Hmmmm.... yeah... Okay....

I would simply tell you, "Thanks, but no thanks."


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## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> blah
> 
> blah
> 
> blah


that's funny


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

JM01 said:


> that's funny


Nice retort.


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

Just ride in the rain.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

my rule of thumb..........don't ride if you are sinking in the trail and leaving ruts.....tacky conditions are the best


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## pedaling pyrate (Nov 30, 2004)

*Follow rules of not riding in mud unless it is a competition?*



notrelatedtoted said:


> I don't know if you're trolling or not, but you should check out *IMBA's "rules of the trail." *
> 
> Riding in mud may be fun, but it does a lot of damage.


It hardly ever rains in San Diego so this isn't a big issue for us but here is my question. If there are rules of the trail and riding in mud is damaging which is a no-no -:nono: then why aren't competitions canceled when it rains. I always see race reports on these forums where everyone is riding in the rain, pics of bikes completely clogged with mud :skep: and comments about how the trails are rutted etc.

So I am curious. Is riding in mud (or conditions that cause damage) permitted only if you pay a fee? Not trying to get anyone upset but it seems a little contradictory/hypocrital?:???:


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*Plausible reasons*



pedaling pyrate said:


> It hardly ever rains in San Diego so this isn't a big issue for us but here is my question. If there are rules of the trail and riding in mud is damaging which is a no-no -:nono: then why aren't competitions canceled when it rains. I always see race reports on these forums where everyone is riding in the rain, pics of bikes completely clogged with mud :skep: and comments about how the trails are rutted etc.
> 
> So I am curious. Is riding in mud (or conditions that cause damage) permitted only if you pay a fee? Not trying to get anyone upset but it seems a little contradictory/hypocrital?:???:


My guess is that it's probably too difficult and costly to reschedule a whole race becuase of conditions. Perhaps I'm a bit naive on the subject, but I would hope that when races are run in such conditions that resources are called upon to to trail maintenance to clean up the mess left behind. Hopefully some folks on the race circuit can speak up on this subject. In any event, if the trails aren't cleaned up after a muddy race, it's definitely hypocritical.

Bob


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## pedaling pyrate (Nov 30, 2004)

*Makes sense...*

...that the organizers take care of things afterwards. Like I said, I really don't have any exposure to it - the rain really and events. I just was wondering.


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