# DIGIT Bikes. Unique, multi-link, made-in-USA, full-suspension, coming very soon.



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Heads up everyone! I'm launching a made-in-USA, multi-link, full-suspension bike which I'm certain will be of interest to many here.

It's embargoed for a few more days, but I can tell you now that it's designed to deliver improved shock performance, improved chassis stiffness, improved reliability over existing suspensions, it's light but sturdy (yes really, I know that sounds like an oxymoron), can accept hilted dropper posts over 210mm (185mm for size S), and can carry two water bottles (three if you mount one under the DT).









I'm crowdfunding the launch, and the pricing will be best for the earliest backers which is why I'm writing to let y'all know in advance. Check it out at DigitBikes.com, (There's a signup there if you want to get notified immediately when it goes live).

Many of you know me as the DirtBaggies guy (I've been in business for about 10 years and I don't think I've had any unhappy customers), alongside that I've been in the bike industry for over 20 years, as an engineer, designer, in customer service, as a shock technician since the beginning, bike mechanic, and more. I was called an "industry veteran" recently, I think it was meant as a complement but it made me feel old.

Anyway, I'm starting this thread because it seems that every time something very new shows up there are competing threads and the forum gets messy (I understand that this might not work).

I've been relatively active here over the years, and will try to continue with that. However, things are going to be *absolutely bananas* for me in the coming weeks. So if I don't answer promptly, please accept my apologies in advance, my focus will have to be on my backers and their Q&A's on the crowdfunding site. I'll check in when I can.

This is quite a moonshot, so please wish me luck, and if you'd like to see a fellow MTBR _veteran _succeed, please tell your friends and ring all the social media bells. Or just pledge for a bike, you know you need a new one anyway ;-)


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

improved shock performance, improved chassis stiffness, improved reliability over existing suspensions

over *which* existing suspensions ? all of them ? some tall tales

need some compelling facts to pledge dough
if you licensed a linkage design from whose I ride now, then yeah I'm on board


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I’m sure there will be metrics by which it will be inferior and disciplines for which the first model will be unsuited. There’s no BEST of anything. But for me this is better enough in so many ways that I’m betting the farm.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

The photo in post #1 appears to be … pink elastomer suspension?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

But yummy pink elastomer suspension. So it's better.


----------



## PhillipJ (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm going to be exceptionally disappointed if you don't include at least two of the following:

New axle diameter, new headset standard (BSA threaded perhaps?), New steerer tube style (double taper maybe? If one is good... ), new rear brake mount standard or new handlebar diameter.

Plus your bike needs to be eBike compatible. If it's not built to eBike standards is it really built?


----------



## SleepeRst (Nov 30, 2011)

Is it better than Tantrum Cycles design?


----------



## MTB Engineer (Feb 15, 2021)

Looks like it could be another “iso strut”. Hope it’s not!


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

The Grim Donut for the masses?!?!


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Nothing that extreme. I was hoping the doughnuts would get PB's attention, it hasn't worked yet though.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

MTB Engineer said:


> Looks like it could be another "iso strut". Hope it's not!


Are they bad at what they do? I've not ridden one, I don't really fit in spandex anymore.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

PhillipJ said:


> I'm going to be exceptionally disappointed if you don't include at least two of the following:
> 
> New axle diameter, new headset standard (BSA threaded perhaps?), New steerer tube style (double taper maybe? If one is good... ), new rear brake mount standard or new handlebar diameter.
> 
> Plus your bike needs to be eBike compatible. If it's not built to eBike standards is it really built?


Be careful what you wish for - I once designed a bike with a weird steerer tube, headset and brake mount. It was actually very popular because it was backward compatible with off-the-shelf parts.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




----------



## odin (Jun 10, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> View attachment 1946119


What's your problem??
Wish the guy good luck and move on.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

odin said:


> What's your problem??
> Wish the guy good luck and move on.


zero details, kickstarter bait, asking for funding....saying it's unique and better with no evidence shown whatsoever.

typically these are one of ten thousand JASK projects

if some legit working prototype, diagrams, or patents appear I'll remove the yawn
until then just vaporware

this is an MTB forum ....gonna get some rips on non-existent claims
he says he's an MTBR veteran, so should know about getting goofed on, and have a tough skin

has designed and engineered world class road bike designs
suspension linkages are a whole world of different

if it is better, I'll buy one. but I own what is, imho, the pinnacle now, so it's gonna be a toughie


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> View attachment 1946119


Do you know who that is?

Edited because of


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

acer66 said:


> Do you who that is?


Rose McGowan


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Locally made is starting off in the right direction. Good for you. Will keep an eye on this.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Looks like the shock is mounted within the top tube.

(Recent example being the Resistance Insolent, I can't remember the name of an earlier example in the '90s that used a Risse shock similarly.)

Edit: Boulder Bikes circa 1993, Boulder Bikes Starship


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

DtEW said:


> Looks like the shock is mounted within the top tube.
> 
> (Recent example being the Resistance Insolent, I can't remember the name of an earlier example in the '90s that used a Risse shock similarly.)
> 
> Edit: Boulder Bikes circa 1993, Boulder Bikes Starship


They are dragging their feet with the release of the Insolent it seems but it looks interesting for sure.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DtEW said:


> Looks like the shock is mounted within the top tube.
> 
> (Recent example being the Resistance Insolent, I can't remember the name of an earlier example in the '90s that used a Risse shock similarly.)
> 
> Edit: Boulder Bikes circa 1993, Boulder Bikes Starship


I can't say I'm a fan if that's true. Why? Proprietary stuff that becomes a challenge to service. Regardless of how well it works WHEN NEW, I want something that I can maintain or replace if it goes belly up several years after the purchase date.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Harold said:


> I can't say I'm a fan if that's true. Why? Proprietary stuff that becomes a challenge to service. Regardless of how well it works WHEN NEW, I want something that I can maintain or replace if it goes belly up several years after the purchase date.


I wouldn't be fan either for the simple fact that using a conventional shock as a structural member has been outmoded for quite awhile, for good reason: shock performance is inconsistent depending on the side load, and shock longevity really suffers. Nothing about modern shocks has changed these characteristics. You might be able to mitigate these effects with a custom shock assembly (eg. a single leg from a 40mm stanchion fork?) but that goes back to your concern with proprietary stuff.

I mean, while it looks like that's the mechanism being obscured (key hints for me were 1) spatial constraints given what we see, and 2) an unnecessarily large and round top tube), we have to see if indeed that's what it is.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I was really looking for some acoustic suspension.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> zero details, kickstarter bait, asking for funding....saying it's unique and better with no evidence shown whatsoever.
> 
> typically these are one of ten thousand JASK projects
> 
> ...


Yeah, such a great idea/product that he can't get a business loan to start it&#8230;


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

DtEW said:


> I wouldn't be fan either for the simple fact that using a conventional shock as a structural member has been outmoded for quite awhile, for good reason: shock performance is inconsistent depending on the side load, and shock longevity really suffers. Nothing about modern shocks has changed these characteristics. You might be able to mitigate these effects with a custom shock assembly (eg. a single leg from a 40mm stanchion fork?) but that goes back to your concern with proprietary stuff.
> 
> I mean, while it looks like that's the mechanism being obscured (key hints for me were 1) spatial constraints given what we see, and 2) an unnecessarily large and round top tube), we have to see if indeed that's what it is.


Had a mac strut bike in the 90's can confirm this is a bad idea.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Harold said:


> I can't say I'm a fan if that's true. Why? Proprietary stuff that becomes a challenge to service. Regardless of how well it works WHEN NEW, I want something that I can maintain or replace if it goes belly up several years after the purchase date.


like the damn trust forks. Shame they went belly up, but sad for all the early adopters that have a fork they can't maintain./


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Mmmmm…donuts.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

noosa2 said:


> Mmmmm&#8230;donuts.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

First Look: The Digit Datum Has Shock Strut Suspension - Pinkbike


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

That design looks familiar somehow&#8230;. anyways. I dig it, especially since it's USA made and aluminum. A 100-120mm version would be nice too. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

that's a no from me dawg...that design has made the rounds several times
in the past 25 years and....*good luck though maybe you will get right what others didn't*

sorry, it is not unique....there have been at least 6 iterations of that

I do imagine if you built 100, you'd sell 100 immediately, easily


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, it makes for a nice, clean frame. Always good for the industry for people to try new designs (or updated variations). I wish him luck.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

chazpat said:


> Well, it makes for a nice, clean frame. Always good for the industry for people to try new designs (or updated variations). I wish him luck.


Thanks chazpat. Here's the first review: betamtb.com/bike-tests/trail/crowdfunding-a-better-moustrap-a-first-ride-on-the-us-built-digit-datum


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I think it's awesome. I'm not afraid of mullets -- they serve a purpose and although I'm a 29er guy, the advantages a mullet setup affords can't be denied (I like short chainstays and long travel). The bike even looks terrific. Of course the biggest thing about the Datum that's off putting is its proprietary shock, but Tim's suspension creation sounds like a high performing, simple, easily serviced unit -- kudos for this. The real test will be if the public embraces it. And this is a toss of the proverbial coin. Good luck, Tim. I think you're moving in the right direction on all fronts. That is, if you can get the bike buying public to embrace mullets & proprietary shocks. Time will tell.
=sParty


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

With the articulated lower link and fixed upper the lateral loads on the shock should be somewhat mitigated and the large shaft should help there too. 

This would be the business for bike packing I would say, I'd be marketing towards that niche with this too. Maybe show it built up with some alt bars or drop bars set up for some gravel grinders or expedition style riding. With all that frame space you could put a lot of bags and gear in that frame.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> I think it's awesome. I'm not afraid of mullets -- they serve a purpose and although I'm a 29er guy, the advantages a mullet setup affords can't be denied (I like short chainstays and long travel). The bike even looks terrific. Of course the biggest thing about the Datum that's off putting is its proprietary shock, but Tim's suspension creation sounds like a high performing, simple, easily serviced unit -- kudos for this. The real test will be if the public embraces it. And this is a toss of the proverbial coin. Good luck, Tim. I think you're moving in the right direction on all fronts. That is, if you can get the bike buying public to embrace mullets & proprietary shocks. Time will tell.
> =sParty


The Beta review discusses the strut. They wrote a separate piece on the strut's prorietaryness too, I have to admit I worried about having proprietary parts, but it the reasons for using it are reliability and serviceability. Hand tools and seals from the hardware store are all that's needed to get all the way to the oil shims, which frankly are more attainable than a spare shock with an appropriate eye-to-eye and tune.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hard no. Too many good bikes these days that don’t have the shock crammed inside something. I switch shocks for trail and racing, some of them have different shaft and body sizes, but the bike doesn’t care. Can’t take a reservoir, can’t take a coil, can’t even take a different air shock it seems. Less lateral rigidity than an actual short-link bike like a pivot/sc, the list goes on and on. If I wanted lighter weight, I’d move to a flex pivot design like the new SC and most all other mfrs are using. At least then you are not locked into one shock usually.


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Main concern is how is the rear suspension serviced, and what parts are needed (will they be available).

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

yeah, hard no. what are we supposed to do when the shock shits the bed? this is inevitable. maybe not for the first user who will sell the bike in 2 yrs. but I tend to buy a bike and keep it for awhile. I kept my first FS going for 11yrs and it was still serviceable when I sold it to a cousin. he could still find replacement parts for any part of that bike if he had to today (even though there are lots of old standards on that bike and selections might be limited), and it would be 18yrs old now.

If you can't replace a rear shock for this thing in 5yrs or whatever because the manufacturer has moved on from the design, it's essentially a fairly short term disposable frame. The Specialized Brain shock comes to mind as a great example of this. I see this happening to the current iteration of the Trek Supercaliber in a few yrs when Trek moves on to a different suspension design. Stop it, manufacturers.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Tim-ti said:


> The Beta review discusses the strut. They wrote a separate piece on the strut's prorietaryness too, I have to admit I worried about having proprietary parts, but it the reasons for using it are reliability and serviceability. Hand tools and seals from the hardware store are all that's needed to get all the way to the oil shims, which frankly are more attainable than a spare shock with an appropriate eye-to-eye and tune.


OP, the breakdown as to how the shock is supposed to be serviceable is hidden behind a paywall. You can help everyone by shedding some light about this here.

The default observation is that the shock body is much longer than the gap between the seat tube and the top tube. The illustration in your video even shows she shock body as being part of the top tube itself, although the photostack shows stand-alone units . Can you clarify if the shock is indeed a separable unit from the top tube? And if so, how does the shock body come out from the frame for servicing?

(Edit for the Nth time: a PB poster noted that the shock goes-in/comes-out through the head tube. There is a small black hatch on this black bike.)

Also, it needs to be noted that not only does your shock have more physical similarity to a fork's internals than that of a conventional shock, but is also subject to a similar duty cycle, specifically one that involves lateral loading. So to compare it to anything of a conventional shock isn't really fair. Your shock needs to be about as serviceable as a fork.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

fwiw I'd be buying Trek Supercaliber if I wanted these kinematics


----------



## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Tim-ti said:


> Thanks chazpat. Here's the first review: betamtb.com/bike-tests/trail/crowdfunding-a-better-moustrap-a-first-ride-on-the-us-built-digit-datum


You should have led with this. I wish you good luck with this project. I think we do need people to challenge the status quo, but I'm not willing to take a risk on it because the proprietary stuff makes me crazy as it's nearly impossible to service.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I bet funding target will be easy peasy









DATUM by DIGIT BIKES, featuring ANALOG suspension


The evolution of suspension bike technology - lighter, stiffer, more reliable.




www.kicktraq.com


----------



## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Clean-looking frame, OP. I hope it’s a success.


----------



## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Tim I really like your design. 
Visually I love it, I thought I liked the Bold/Scott hidden shock bikes but I like yours even more.

Obviously a lot of concern here over the "proprietary" shock. From what I've read its designed to use standard seals you can buy at a hardware store or specialty supplier and the suspension shims are also standard parts that would be available. And that it can be rebuilt with normal tools. I imagine the bushings are also "standard" parts. That leaves one only truly dependent on the small machined parts specific to the install. This is significantly less proprietary in my mind than say the custom Trek ReActiv and Specialized brain shocks that the consumer really can't even open up at all. 

And the improvement in oil volume, Leverage ratio, and air volume are enormous ! Our little consumer market targeted shocks are doing well enough these days but so much to be packed into such a small package that is under so much stress. I admit the modern MTB shock is pretty robust, I haven't blown one up in quite some time but I really like the larger envelope on your design

I'm sure you hate it when everyone says "I'd love to buy in but......." ..... but, I really don't have a need for anything less than a 160mm bike. Do you think at some point you will build something larger like that ? I'm thinking one reason you went with a mullet was a challenge with getting enough room for the suspension/shock to articulate. 

I'll definitely be following your progress, keep us updated. Wish my budget had more room in it to take a chance on this. If you add a 160mm design to the KS I might find a way.!


----------



## hardrockinG20 (Mar 16, 2004)

cdalemaniac said:


> That design looks familiar somehow&#8230;. anyways. I dig it, especially since it's USA made and aluminum. A 100-120mm version would be nice too.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 120mm suspension and 29 compatible would get my attention.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

For that price point with an alloy frame we get a pressfit BB?


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> yeah, hard no. what are we supposed to do when the shock shits the bed? this is inevitable. maybe not for the first user who will sell the bike in 2 yrs. but I tend to buy a bike and keep it for awhile. I kept my first FS going for 11yrs and it was still serviceable when I sold it to a cousin. he could still find replacement parts for any part of that bike if he had to today (even though there are lots of old standards on that bike and selections might be limited), and it would be 18yrs old now.
> 
> If you can't replace a rear shock for this thing in 5yrs or whatever because the manufacturer has moved on from the design, it's essentially a fairly short term disposable frame. The Specialized Brain shock comes to mind as a great example of this. I see this happening to the current iteration of the Trek Supercaliber in a few yrs when Trek moves on to a different suspension design. Stop it, manufacturers.


I fully agree with your assessment of the big companies making disposable frames due to proprietary shocks and stuff. It's BS and most often people don't know what they're buying only to figure it out 5 years later. Stop it!

But, I think this Digit bike design is exactly where it belongs and early adopters will know what they're getting into up front. A small brand (or a new brand in this case) that is experimenting with new technology and thinking outside the box. Why not, go for it. (this is a far better project than a E-DJer (WTF?) or a $14k Harley Davidson E-Schwinn Stingray. )

It's not like one of the big brands forcing new products into the market. (recent examples: Flat mount calipers on MTB's (Barf) and Boost gravel bikes called "road boost" citing "10% stiffer wheels". Barf.)

Anyway, no I'm not going to buy one, but I'd sure like to demo one if it was available at my local trailhead.


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

006_007 said:


> For that price point with an alloy frame we get a pressfit BB?


GF just bought a Litespeed and to "upgrade" to a threaded bb it sets you back around $150.


----------



## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

Looks cool... but I'm a "coil rider".... so, no thanks. GOOD LUCK!


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

hardrockinG20 said:


> 120mm suspension and 29 compatible would get my attention.


^100%

Everything else I want it already got.
-2x bottle mounts,
-Aluminum frame
-USA made
-Easily serviceable,
-not a gazillion freakin' pivots.

Wish him luck with it.
Reminds me a lot of what the "Old" cannondale used to stand for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

stripes said:


> You should have led with this. I wish you good luck with this project. I think we do need people to challenge the status quo, but I'm not willing to take a risk on it because the proprietary stuff makes me crazy as it's nearly impossible to service.


I would have if I'd seen it. I was astounded by how great the review is when I read it yesterday.
Today the bike won the top Eurobike award. There are people who will roll their eyes, but I'm very excited!


----------



## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

OP, I like the design. Nice and clean. Regarding proprietary concerns surrounding the rear shock... Using the top tube as the air can end of things, could the remaining internals from an existing popular shock not be used?. Kind of like a cartridge design. I know this is oversimplified view, but if the top tube is used like a outer air can (like a DebonAir), maybe a design that allows you to unthread the internals as a single unit (AKA cartridge) from the top tube like you would from a DebonAir. Using internals from an existing shock line not only allows easier maintenance and compatibility, but also provides a way to offer the bike with different levels of rear shock.

I know, it's an oversimplified thought and there are several nuances to address. Besides, I'm sure you already went down this path.

Thinking long term... if a cartridge kind of design becomes popular, and you license that patent to others , the folks at RockShox and Fox will begin to make them en masse like they do any other fork and shock design. I mean, after all, there weren't a bunch of bike shocks laying around when the first full suspension bike hit the trails...


----------



## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

Actually like it way more than I thought I would. Knowing which parts can be serviced and replaced when worn and which parts will mean DOA when broken because of their proprietary nature would be the deal breakers for me.


----------



## DeeCount (Oct 3, 2020)

Looks great, especially for an initial design/prototype. I wish you all the success 👍
Hopefully you'll be able to get as much of this done as possible on your own and be able to fully develop this. It's when you get backers and money men involved that your vision and direction can get all shot to [email protected]🤗


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

fredcook said:


> OP, I like the design. Nice and clean. Regarding proprietary concerns surrounding the rear shock... Using the top tube as the air can end of things, could the remaining internals from an existing popular shock not be used?. Kind of like a cartridge design. I know this is oversimplified view, but if the top tube is used like a outer air can (like a DebonAir), maybe a design that allows you to unthread the internals as a single unit (AKA cartridge) from the top tube like you would from a DebonAir. Using internals from an existing shock line not only allows easier maintenance and compatibility, but also provides a way to offer the bike with different levels of rear shock.
> 
> I know, it's an oversimplified thought and there are several nuances to address. Besides, I'm sure you already went down this path.
> 
> Thinking long term... if a cartridge kind of design becomes popular, and you license that patent to others , the folks at RockShox and Fox will begin to make them en masse like they do any other fork and shock design. I mean, after all, there weren't a bunch of bike shocks laying around when the first full suspension bike hit the trails...


Yes!
I'm using mostly the same glide rings, and other other small parts as other established brands, so spare parts shouldn't be a problem. You could even use the damper piston from some other manufacturers shocks (as I did in some prototypes) I'm not going to name names yet because there might be further improvements before the first frames go out the door and I don't want those future owners reading out-of-date information.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's a world with quite a lot of interesting bicycles and this one definitely adds to the list.

Such creative people in the field.

Congrats on the rad reviews, hope you are a success!


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Tim-ti said:


> Yes!
> I'm using mostly the same glide rings, and other other small parts as other established brands, so spare parts shouldn't be a problem. You could even use the damper piston from some other manufacturers shocks (as I did in some prototypes) I'm not going to name names yet because there might be further improvements before the first frames go out the door and I don't want those future owners reading out-of-date information.


The operative question is then if ALL of the parts of the shock can be obtained (or will be obtained) via existing off-the-shelf options?

I don't mind different, so long as those long term maintenance and repair issues are addressed. What happens if one of the major components of the system fails? Such as getting really ugly scratches on the stanchion?


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Add another vote in for the next bike to be more XC oriented - 100-120mm travel, 29" wheels.
I'd be SUPER thrilled if you could squeeze 29x3" tires inside it as well. Really like the concept and the idea of it.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm desperately busy trying to claw together enough support to make this happen. So, my apologies, at this time I'm not going to use my moments begging people to buy into this if they don't already appear interested. I hope to be able to address all concerns in future, and by proving the function under a lot of riders. I am reading the comments though and if I can use the feedback to improve the implementation I will. If you have a bike which you love, and feel is superior, keep riding that. I have plenty of bikes I love which aren't this Digit Datum, a new bike doesn't make an old bike obsolete or unloved. (although when the production bikes are ready I'm absolutely going to stop loving the prototype!).
Thank you to those with the supportive and kind words, life just got quite crazy they're helping to keep me together.

p.s. this thread got moved from "Shocks and Suspension" to "Full Suspension Bikes" wouldn't most of this discussion be better suited to the former?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Tim-ti said:


> Yes!
> I'm using mostly the same glide rings, and other other small parts as other established brands, so spare parts shouldn't be a problem. You could even use the damper piston from some other manufacturers shocks (as I did in some prototypes) I'm not going to name names yet because there might be further improvements before the first frames go out the door and I don't want those future owners reading out-of-date information.


Oh, I missed big one point you made. The top tube itself isn't the air can. The whole shock is removable, cartridge style.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Tim-ti said:


> p.s. this thread got moved from "Shocks and Suspension" to "Full Suspension Bikes" wouldn't most of this discussion be better suited to the former?


thread is really about the bike as a whole. especially since you started off the entire thing with the rear suspension design blanked out with donuts.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

when you first posted it seemed like same as a lot of noise that happens with 'hey lookit my kickstarter' but no in your case this was already far developed and you surprised with the full project well baked. so now it is, whether or not someone wants to ride those kinematics (easy sell, a few big brand bikes have nearly same), and if they want that proprietary system


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> when you first posted it seemed like same as a lot of noise that happens with 'hey lookit my kickstarter' but no in your case this was already far developed and you surprised with the full project well baked. so now it is, whether or not someone wants to ride those kinematics (easy sell, a few big brand bikes have nearly same), and if they want that proprietary system


Kickstarter has had its fair share of half-hearted, money-grabbing, under-delivering, wacka-doodles. I can see how what I'm doing here puts me in some of those boxes, I'm trying my best not to cover the whole Venn diagram!


----------



## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

I like the design. It’s clean looking, aluminum option, and seems simple enough to service. If it had a treaded BB more people would be willing to take a chance IMO. I wish you the best.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I have a fun idea (unless it's not your kind of fun, in which case sorry).

People are asking what's in the BetaMTB paywall article, frankly I don't think there are secrets in there which aren't also here or at DigitBikes.com. But it describes my motives for making the shock, and some of the design decisions. I may rewrite something in future but unfortunately I don't have time right now, it was quite lengthy and I was writing to Ferrentino so I was trying to be competitively erudite.

Anyway, my idea is to invite myself on their podcast, maybe to read the paywall article aloud, or to paraphrase and discuss it.

I've tried inviting myself onto their page here: 
*Pinkbike Podcast #79*
*If you think it sounds enlightening or fun, please click the link and **UP-vote **my comment and **make a comment** that I should be included.*

They're always talking about "novel suspensions", "simple straight metal tubes with black paint", "is innovation over?", "two waterbottles", etc. The Datum has all of those features, and I think this idea is "the right amount of stupid" that it should all be of interest to them.

Also on the next podcast they're talking about ?STANDARDS. I was included in some of the industry conversations for 15mm axles, 100/110, 142/148, tapered headsets, BB's, etc, so I can bring a perspective which they may not have; and my rear shock is of course not-standard (not to be confused with new-standard).

I realize I'm trying hard with this, and some of you don't want this bike for yourselves. Maybe you didn't want an AMP, but they brought us to the FSR, or an Outland VPP, or a Mountain Cycle, or a Bow-Ti either, but aren't you glad they existed? My hope is that this is the ultimate solution to life, the universe and everything, but even if it's not. Let's be able to remember it nostalgically, laugh about that guy (no, I won't be laughing), and have fun on the way.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Harold said:


> The operative question is then if ALL of the parts of the shock can be obtained (or will be obtained) via existing off-the-shelf options?
> 
> I don't mind different, so long as those long term maintenance and repair issues are addressed. What happens if one of the major components of the system fails? Such as getting really ugly scratches on the stanchion?


Exactly. "Mostly" doesn't cut it. Even fox stuff is terrible for internals, because they are all imperial size and not metric. So where do you get small fittings, suspension shims, spacers, etc. in imperial? The thing with a fox shox is fox is they are probably not going away and you can replace the shock with a different one of the same size down the road on the vast majority of bikes, as shocks do go out of production. All it takes is one part to render your bike useless.

Plus, what is the bleed procedure for the shock? Can everyone do it at home withour special tools like a RS or Manitou? It's already limiting enough finding a shop that will work on any suspension (successfully) and something that has to go back to the company to just be bled is not acceptable.

The issue with designs like this is marginal to no benefits over existing stuff and far more issues down the road.

100% I would race a trek isostrut (in my expert division) if someone gave it to me. 100% I would never spend my own money on one.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Tim-ti said:


> I have a fun idea (unless it's not your kind of fun, in which case sorry).
> 
> People are asking what's in the BetaMTB paywall article, frankly I don't think there are secrets in there which aren't also here or at DigitBikes.com. But it describes my motives for making the shock, and some of the design decisions. I may rewrite something in future but unfortunately I don't have time right now, it was quite lengthy and I was writing to Ferrentino so I was trying to be competitively erudite.
> 
> ...


No, I am not glad the Bow-Ti existed. Horrible idea/bike.


----------



## bikechecker.com (Sep 19, 2005)

Digit Datum 140mm trail bike runs Analog Suspension with Integer Strut Shock


The Digit Datum is a 140mm travel full suspension mountain bike, the first to run Analog Suspension’s Integer Strut Shock. Digit Bikes have taken frame and suspension integration further than any manufacturer yet, sliding a 12″ long shock absorber into the top tube of the Datum frame. What’s...




bikerumor.com




OK, so it's almost a macpherson strut.
My evident point of interest is how the strut is lubricated, the crucial point in easy sliding (suspension sensitivity) and durability.
The Marin/Polygon Naild/React suspension is quite similar and I was feeling a bit of lazyness with it, still working quite good though. This bike looks way better anyway! Good luck.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

bikechecker.com said:


> Digit Datum 140mm trail bike runs Analog Suspension with Integer Strut Shock
> 
> 
> The Digit Datum is a 140mm travel full suspension mountain bike, the first to run Analog Suspension’s Integer Strut Shock. Digit Bikes have taken frame and suspension integration further than any manufacturer yet, sliding a 12″ long shock absorber into the top tube of the Datum frame. What’s...
> ...


no, not a MacPherson strut at all. no part of the damper pivots around it's axis or steers anything.

there have been a long line of extremely similar strut types into top tube used in bikes over many years, this is one more iteration of a concept where all others have died in childhood. yeah it might work, but who's buying ?
stated to be unique...yeah, well, no so much really. been done a lot....all have been flash in the pans...

kickstarter funding won't be an issue. but getting more peeps to buy into the proprietary strut has been the death knell for all that came before. Trek has the isostrut built by Fox, so there is a boatload of support for that, but if/when Trek dumps that, it will also become dang hard to support over the years.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

bikechecker.com said:


> Digit Datum 140mm trail bike runs Analog Suspension with Integer Strut Shock
> 
> 
> The Digit Datum is a 140mm travel full suspension mountain bike, the first to run Analog Suspension’s Integer Strut Shock. Digit Bikes have taken frame and suspension integration further than any manufacturer yet, sliding a 12″ long shock absorber into the top tube of the Datum frame. What’s...
> ...


It is indeed almost a MacPherson strut*, and almost a Chapman Strut, and it's also not quite either of them. I'm actually stuggling with quite how to name it so if you have a great idea I'd love to know, there's a little discussion about it over here: PinkBikeFirstLook I ended up calling it a 3-bar link, but strictly speaking that's not accurate either.

*to be honest I think it's a reach that the MTB suspension got named Mac Strut. The operation is so different from the automotive suspension, the wheel is oriented at 90 degrees for a start. Because that's a reach, I think maybe the court of public opinion might decide on the description.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

you called it analog, so that's it's name .....
monotube shock is accurate...rod and piston compresses gas.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> no, not a MacPherson strut at all. no part of the damper pivots around it's axis or steers anything.
> 
> there have been a long line of extremely similar strut types into top tube used in bikes over many years, this is one more iteration of a concept where all others have died in childhood. yeah it might work, but who's buying ?
> stated to be unique...yeah, well, no so much really. been done a lot....all have been flash in the pans...
> ...


For the first year or two Maverick made their own shock (M*Bits), then Fox took over. I was talking with some of the big, established suspension manufacturers and had planned to work with the them, but because of the covid supply chain delays some of them are now facing a 600 day lead time for OEM delivery. This is not a great time for them to focus on my project, and it's not smart for me to rely on that. So, rather than wait for 2 years (to possibly then learn it could be longer), I can start this by making my own shock - the parts are simpler to machine compared with an eyelet shock. I've consulted with the earliest founders of MTB suspension, and the most respected gurus in motorcycle suspension, and since launch I've been approached by industry guys with ideas of suspension OEMs who might have some capacity.

Kickstarter funding is not in the bag, it might still be an issue. The momentum and support I recieve on forums like these has the potential to be a factor in that.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

you just have to get the word out no matter what bike it is. it's only been a few days....

I have seen absolute hogwash on kickstarter get .3 million in pre-funding, yours is no where near hogwash it's a real bike...or seems to be you haven't shown the final version

but ....your kickstarter will have no problem ...75% the people who will want your bike don't even know about it yet....


offering a full build will go a looooooong way. I laid out over 5.5G on a kickstarter project but it was a full build and I got i9 wheels too, at an incredible deal for the components. I would not have paid a cent if it wasn't a full build. i am very technical and used to be a bike mechanic BITD and have tons of tools now, and a wee bit of disposable income....but just do not want to deal with building a new bike, I want components supplied by the frame maker so all the BB spacing, drivetrain.... and headset fit has been done for me and known to generally work well with this new bike, 'cuz the inventor supplied all the compoentry

You also mentioned anodized...you should offer up color schemes...that will also help a ton in selling and pre-sales.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> you just have to get the word out no matter what bike it is. it's only been a few days....
> 
> I have seen absolute hogwash on kickstarter get .3 million in pre-funding, yours is no where near hogwash it's a real bike...or seems to be you haven't shown the final version
> 
> but ....your kickstarter will have no problem ...75% the people who will want your bike don't even know about it yet....


Thank you. I wonder about some of those too. The 3D printed bike which got $7million blew my mind. I think it was a manufacturing technology company using bikes as their (lowish risk) marketing push to fuel a start making aerospace and automotive parts, that's where I become a tinfoil hat wearing conspiricy theorist - what if they just gave their employees their venture funding to all back the project and make a splash. I'm probably just jealous, because I want $7million and a Oompa-Loompa NOW DADDY!

I'd love to offer full builds, but the supply chain is horrible. As an OEM, I need to buy a crate of the same saddles, or chains, or whatever, so the lead time to build completes is well over a year (even if I settle for components I don't really want). On the other hand, customer #1 might like Sram X0 and can find enough parts for their needs, customer #2 might like Shimano 2x and can find theirs, and customer #3 wants to transfer their part but will have to buy new rear wheel. Though that market is tougher, it's not a 2 year wait.

There's an upcharge option for any color which can be anodized. I hope to offer more options in the future, but I already feel I've built a monumental task, so in the same way as I don't want to get distracted by printing t-shirts and bells and socks, I'm trying to focus on the mission critical elements.


----------



## jpre (Jan 15, 2004)

Tim-ti said:


> For the first year or two Maverick made their own shock (M*Bits), then Fox took over.


I for one am happy that all the crazy bikes that have been invented existed. I've occasionally gone out of my way to try some of them.

I don't know if there's much point to my saying this but for those who have a Maverick or the Klein version I haven't heard much over the years about not being able to deal with the shock. What I think I have heard is when that link behind the bb wears out now there is no one to replace it.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Stoked to see the innovation.

I don't ride small wheels, nor skinny tires for that matter.

If you're successful on this go-round and a full 29" with clearance for 2.8's becomes feasible, I'll pay full-bucket for at least one, and probably two.

Good luck.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

jpre said:


> I for one am happy that all the crazy bikes that have been invented existed. I've occasionally gone out of my way to try some of them.
> 
> I don't know if there's much point to my saying this but for those who have a Maverick or the Klein version I haven't heard much over the years about not being able to deal with the shock. What I think I have heard is when that link behind the bb wears out now there is no one to replace it.


I think the main reason Maverick went away was, not that they licensed to Klein, but that Klein was acquired by Trek. I am entirely guessing here, but perhaps GT were OK (enough) with Maverick and Klein infringing on the iDrive patents, maybe it was a good look for them or maybe they were too small and friendly to be worth the attention. But once Trek owned it, they were a threat and worth bringing action against. That's two tin-foil hat posts in an hour. I need to settle down!


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

mikesee said:


> Stoked to see the innovation.
> 
> I don't ride small wheels, nor skinny tires for that matter.
> 
> ...


I second all of this... well, except I can't promise I'll be all in bike purchasewise. Depends on where I am in my bike buying cycle (no pun intended) at the time. But if DIGIT Bikes has achieved traction as a company by that time, I'll absolutely consider buying one. Tim, I hope your execution keeps up with your design, which I feel is innovative even if something very similar has been done before.
=sParty


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> I second all of this... well, except I can't promise I'll be all in bike purchasewise. Depends on where I am in my bike buying cycle (no pun intended) at the time. But if DIGIT Bikes has achieved traction as a company by that time, I'll absolutely consider buying one. Tim, I hope your execution keeps up with your design, which I feel is innovative even if something very similar has been done before.
> =sParty


Thanks sParty. I'm a stickler for execution, sometimes to a fault: in my garage I have rolls of rejected fabric and boxes of DirtBaggies liners with one stitch didn't meet my standards (some day I'll donate it). Here's some other high quality bikes I worked on: timlanedesign.com/aero-bikes (with some of those we had a problem in the first shipments, I had collegues remove bikes from boxes, then fixed the frames myself on a mill before we sent them out).


----------



## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

bikechecker.com said:


> Digit Datum 140mm trail bike runs Analog Suspension with Integer Strut Shock
> 
> 
> The Digit Datum is a 140mm travel full suspension mountain bike, the first to run Analog Suspension’s Integer Strut Shock. Digit Bikes have taken frame and suspension integration further than any manufacturer yet, sliding a 12″ long shock absorber into the top tube of the Datum frame. What’s...
> ...


Not really a MacPherson strut since there's no rotation on the shaft. Maybe you're thinking "almost a strut 'cartridge'". That's at least how I think of it.


----------



## bikechecker.com (Sep 19, 2005)

fredcook said:


> Not really a MacPherson strut since there's no rotation on the shaft. Maybe you're thinking "almost a strut 'cartridge'". That's at least how I think of it.


Yes I wrote "almost" (edited my post quickly). In terms of linkage topology, it's almost the same, yes the difference is that the pivot at the shock is moving, while a macPherson's upper pivot does not move. If it was a macPherson, the strut would go inside the rear triangle (maverick), not the main frame. And similarly, this system also has a side load force on the strut, so it would wear out fast, or have too much friction if not done well. It's an engineering challenge doing it right, but then it may work out. It's something not mainstream, maybe we can agree. I mean same physics apply to all linkage systems, there's never been anything "independent" or "neutral" etc. if it was independent, it would fly away  If it was neutral, then it would not have any effect  Sorry for being a nerd, these are just examples, nothing connected to this design. I think it's quite thoughtful, and well worth a try. It's pretty sleek too, so suits recent trends.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

bikechecker.com said:


> Yes I wrote "almost" (edited my post quickly). In terms of linkage topology, it's almost the same, yes the difference is that the pivot at the shock is moving, while a macPherson's upper pivot does not move. If it was a macPherson, the strut would go inside the rear triangle (maverick), not the main frame. And similarly, this system also has a side load force on the strut, so it would wear out fast, or have too much friction if not done well. It's an engineering challenge doing it right, but then it may work out. It's something not mainstream, maybe we can agree. I mean same physics apply to all linkage systems, there's never been anything "independent" or "neutral" etc. if it was independent, it would fly away  If it was neutral, then it would not have any effect  Sorry for being a nerd, these are just examples, nothing connected to this design. I think it's quite thoughtful, and well worth a try. It's pretty sleek too, so suits recent trends.


Never apologize for being a nerd . I'm embracing it, nothing gets improved without us*!

*yes, I know that's how the A-bomb got built. Don't be that sort of nerd.


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

If this had come out before I put a non-refundable deposit down on another bike a couple months ago I would have had a very hard decision to make. I love uncommon stuff like this, and the frame geo, aesthetics and features are all nearly perfect for my tastes (just needs a fluorescent yellow ridewrap or something to make it pop 😁). So I guess I'm saying thanks for not releasing it until now, saving me many anxious hours and sleepless nights of analysis paralysis. 😄


----------



## 63expert (Jun 4, 2020)

Doddy just featured the bike on GMBN Tech


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

63expert said:


> Doddy just featured the bike on GMBN Tech


Thanks for the heads up 🤟

Here's the link: 



 though there's not much to see.

There's a link to a dropbox at DigiBikes.com with are more images, me riding and some additional video of the bike.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

“3-bar link” is accurate. You have frame (1 bar), moving link (1 bar) and rear triangle (1 bar). That’s three. Dual link bikes, Horst links, most other linkage driven shock bikes are 4-bar. A few bikes that use an extra linkage for some purpose like to get around the seat tube (Knolly) are 6-bar linkages. The only possible technical obfuscation would be the shock shaft kind of constitutes another link, since it changes shape (length).

What are the kinematic goals? Most bikes these days have fairly flat AS plots around 100% throughout 1/2 to 2/3rds of the travel to provide good pedaling characteristics, especially uphill. Even Horst links have been dramatically flattened out one is respect.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

71% funded

edit: it's slipped backward to 66%

still have tons of time...








DATUM by DIGIT BIKES, featuring ANALOG suspension


The evolution of suspension bike technology - lighter, stiffer, more reliable.




www.kicktraq.com


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> 71% funded
> 
> edit: it's slipped backward to 66%
> 
> ...


The first backer pledged in the first minute of the campaign. I was flattered, but I guess it was a bot - the video takes longer to watch than that.

This means there's now a frame available again in the first pricing tier. Tell your friends!


----------



## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I think a Proflex is a lot more like a strut type suspension, but anyway... those weren't very good.

I'd like to see how that short link down at the BB works. Seems like a tricky little detail that's going to be very important for a trouble-free life.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

phantoj said:


> I think a Proflex is a lot more like a strut type suspension, but anyway... those weren't very good.
> 
> I'd like to see how that short link down at the BB works. Seems like a tricky little detail that's going to be very important for a trouble-free life.


Everything down there is stout and simple. I've been riding prototypes for about two years and not given this a second thought. Of course there will be service documentation and a full knowledge base on DigitBikes.com when the first bikes ship.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tellin ya, you're gonna get your loot

Backers: 26
Average Daily Pledges: $5,225
Average Pledge Per Backer: $2010

Funding: $52,254 of $65,000---- 80%


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Looking good Tim, hope it all works out, made in California is nice!


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks @Nurse Ben, @127.0.0.1


----------



## Offthepath (Dec 29, 2020)

Good clean lines. I really like it. Keep up the good work.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> View attachment 1948012


I wonder how reliable that trending estimate is? ?.

Apparently it's normal that 90% of pledges come in the first and last few days of crowdfunding campaigns, and it's also normal that the people running campaigns freak out a little during the "trough of despair". So I guess I'm kinda normal!
Seeing as I only need three more people to pledge support however, I'm already getting a head start on ordering the tubes and aluminum billets. Also ?.

I've been doing show-and-tell at my local trailheads and bike park. I'm not practised at being a salesman so it feels awkward asking if I can take a moment of someones ride time, but once people see the bike it's inevitably a 45 minute Q&A conversation, everyone's been really excited to learn all about the bike, that it's locally made, and to either place an order, help spread the word, or invite me to their group ride.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I found this footage taken a year ago today and thought y'all might like it:


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Is anyone here in the SF Bay Area?
Is the parking lot at Demo still as busy as Burning Man every weekend? I'm thinking of coming up this weekend to do trailhead show-and-tell.

Also, am I correct that it's open now, even though the USFS parks are closed?


----------



## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

Soquel Demonstration Forest is a state forest, so yeah, it's open. Check out the NorCal forum for the latest conditions, there are a lot of Demo riders there.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ok make some bikes


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> ok make some bikes
> 
> View attachment 1949103


I like that plan!


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

How do you set the air pressure, sag, and adjust compression and rebound damping?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

prj71 said:


> How do you set the air pressure, sag, and adjust compression and rebound damping?


The air fill valve, compression knob and rebound dial are at the top of the shock.
More info at DigitBikes.com


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)




----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

^ Nice!


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

Is there an air sleeve cylinder of any sort inside the frame?
If the Air chamber piston seals are riding against the inside if the top tube only, what happens if it gets worn or damaged? On a normal bike you simply swap a shock and call it a day….
On this bike you would have to discard the whole frame since that is essentially the air can?
What happens if you dent the frame?
You can’t pull the internals out if this happes either……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

cdalemaniac said:


> Is there an air sleeve cylinder of any sort inside the frame?


I think he already mentioned the “shock” is a self-contained unit that does not have air seals against the frame tubing.

Your point about denting the TT may be a good one. Kinda argues for carbon fiber honestly.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

I doubt this idea takes off.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

cdalemaniac said:


> Is there an air sleeve cylinder of any sort inside the frame?


Yes, there is an air sleeve cylinder inside the frame, as shown at DigitBikes.com


cdalemaniac said:


> If the Air chamber piston seals are riding against the inside if the top tube only, what happens if it gets worn or damaged?


The air chamber piston rides against the cartridge wall, not against the inside of the top tube. It is designed for improved reliability over conventional shocks, but if it gets worn or damaged, service is easier than on conventinonal shocks, as discussed at DigitBikes.com 


cdalemaniac said:


> On a normal bike you simply swap a shock and call it a day….


On this bike you can also swap out the shock, spares are for sale, or more affordably the strut can be repaired much more easily and quickly than a conventional shock. Further details are here: DigitBikes.com


cdalemaniac said:


> On this bike you would have to discard the whole frame since that is essentially the air can?


You would not have to discard the frame, as menioned above, the frame is not the air can.


cdalemaniac said:


> What happens if you dent the frame?


Pretty much the same as if you dent any other frame.


cdalemaniac said:


> You can’t pull the internals out if this happes either……


See above.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

_"Catastrophizing is *when someone assumes that the worst will happen*. Often, it involves believing that you're in a worse situation than you really are or exaggerating the difficulties you face."_
--HealthLine.com


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

bottom line appears to be this

these bikes WILL EXIST and get ready for the reviews and comparisons and did my bike break yet and why ?

I rolled the 5G+ dice on a KS project that turned out to be more than advertised.
not signing up here, since to me....nothing can eclipse my KS bike. 

But really want to see how this goes long-term.

New bike coming...news and reviews to look forward to...
helps lube the brain box as we try to outthink this thing before it has fully hatched.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm eager to see the production unit. I expect it'll be a winner, although there are a lot of retrogrouches who'll take a hard stance against it. Why? Because there's just something about cyclists... no matter how good an idea may be, we just don't embrace change very well, do we.

I can't believe that 6 or 8 years ago I thought dropper posts were for stupid slackers who pushed their bikes up hills.

What a loser. Dropper posts not only revolutionized the way I personally ride, they've revolutionized our entire sport. They made modern geometry possible and demanded the introduction of the wide range 1x drivetrain.

Speaking of 1x drivetrains, don't get me started on the miserably arcane front defailure. Good riddance!

Tim, your bike won't have a front defailure, will it? 
=sParty


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> _"Catastrophizing is *when someone assumes that the worst will happen*. Often, it involves believing that you're in a worse situation than you really are or exaggerating the difficulties you face."_
> --HealthLine.com


It's OK to determine the worst case but you get bogged down if you don't also realistically evaluate the probability.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> I'm eager to see the production unit. I expect it'll be a winner, although there are a lot of retrogrouches who'll take a hard stance against it. Why? Because there's just something about cyclists... no matter how good an idea may be, we just don't embrace change very well, do we.
> 
> I can't believe that 6 or 8 years ago I thought dropper posts were for stupid slackers who pushed their bikes up hills.
> 
> ...


We’ll, if you WANTED a front derailleur. You could put one on that nice straight seat tube 😉😂.

As to where the shifter would go without disrupting the dropper lever, I have no idea.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> bottom line appears to be this
> 
> these bikes WILL EXIST and get ready for the reviews and comparisons and did my bike break yet and why ?
> 
> ...


I understand the trepidation. Luckily, for anyone who’s turned off by the Kickstarter, there’ll be a normal web store with normal commerce in the not terribly distant future.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim-ti said:


> I understand the trepidation. Luckily, for anyone who’s turned off by the Kickstarter, there’ll be a normal web store with normal commerce in the not terribly distant future.


No trepidation here! I bought 2 bikes this year so no need to buy yet another. That's all.
On the other hand if I was looking for a bike -- and if yours was already available -- I'd be standing in line. That is after early adopters had provided their honest feedback and it was universally positive, of course. 
=sParty


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Sparticus said:


> ... no matter how good an idea may be, we just don't embrace change very well, do we.


This assumes that this design is a good idea. As an engineer myself...unfortunately I don't think it is.



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

prj71 said:


> This assumes that this design is a good idea. As an engineer myself...unfortunately I don't think it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Ok, we get it. Can you stop already? If you don't like it that's fine, but others are willing to give it a chance.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Thank you Shark, sParty, eb1888, steadite and everyone else who's trying to keep MTBR interesting and civil.

The Kickstarter has only 23 hours to go, so I figure I should catch y'all up on the ride test reviews. I focused on the most experienced test editors with reputations to protect, who would take no guff, and I was hoping, would give me constructive feedback on anything that needs to be improved.

When I first started showing it, it was with the question "is this ready for market, what have I missed?" They all basically said that I absolutely needed to hit the go button on making these, that aside from the imperfections in my prototype (which are related to it not being made in production tooling), that it is very, very good, performs competitively among, or better than, its peers while also delivering the bottle/dropper/stiffness/weight/etc. advantages. 

Unpropmted, they also wrote about my integrity/reputation in the industry, but as I mentioned earlier, it's OK not to trust Kickstarter. Digit will operate with a normal business model soon enough. Here are the reviews:

betamtb.com - Mike Ferrentino - crowdfunding a better moustrap


cyclingindependent.com - Patrick Brady - a kickstarter we love


bicycling.com - Matt Phillips - digit datum review


mbaction.com - Ron Koch - first ride impressions


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Shark said:


> Ok, we get it. Can you stop already? If you don't like it that's fine, but others are willing to give it a chance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


It's been done before. You don't think it hasn't been given a chance by consumers already?



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-outlier-the-full-story-of-the-wild-resistance-insolent-dh-bike.html








One bad spill that deforms the top tube or seat tube and that bike is done.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

prj71 said:


> It's been done before. You don't think it hasn't been given a chance by consumers already?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, we all understand. Thank you for making your point then beating us over the head with it again and again. 

You can move on now. Job done.


----------



## Offthepath (Dec 29, 2020)

I like the looks of the bike and if the shock is as simple to maintain and performs like Tim says, there is no reason this won't be successful as a basic idea. But, ultimately like most businesses, the success of digit will be determined by a lot of other factors (mostly marketing, margin and how Tim runs the business). 

Kudos for pushing a cool idea into a crowded and competitive market. That takes some bravado and dedication. Even if you don't like the idea, have a little respect for a guy putting a lot on the line. 

I'm not in a position to buy a bike now and prefer to give things like this a little time to settle in. But in a few years once it's established, I'd have no issue considering this bike when I need a new one. 

Congrats on the kick starter campaign. I think that alone is a big fist step in showing the market is open to the design and idea.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Yes, we all understand. Thank you for making your point then beating us over the head with it again and again.
> 
> You can move on now. Job done.


I have three posts in this thread. Not beating anyone over the head again and again.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Offthepath said:


> But, ultimately like most businesses, the success of digit will be determined by a lot of other factors (mostly marketing, margin and how Tim runs the business).


And if enough consumers actually have an interest in buying a product like this.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

prj71 said:


> I have three posts in this thread. Not beating anyone over the head again and again.


But you're repeatedly being negative without much substance. You say you're an engineer and you don't like it but you don't say why from an engineering viewpoint; you say it's been done before, ok, maybe it was done wrong before or poorly marketed, etc. You say if you damage the top tube it's done; well in over two decades of riding, and crashing, I have never dented a top tube. Sure it could happen but I wouldn't let that possibility stop me from considering the bike.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty sure any bike would be totaled if you smashed in the entire top tube. But what do I know? That never really happens anyways.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> Pretty sure any bike would be totaled if you smashed in the entire top tube. But what do I know? That never really happens anyways.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


agreed 

40 years riding bikes HARD, have dented some, many have been tossed into trees, rocks...etc

never have I done any damage to top tube except sweat eating the paint. it's frickin rare to damage one ime


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I don't know which person I'm applying MTBR's "ignore" feature to so successfully since I can't see his posts (#119, 122, 125, 126), but it sounds like he's not very popular with the rest of the rational & reasonable world, either. 
=sParty


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Local, smaller Youtuber I ride with occasionally took it for a spin. I'm just not in the market for a bike right now, so I hold no position. But I don't see anything inherently bad, nothing that hasn't been answered.


----------



## SleepeRst (Nov 30, 2011)

The bike is cool, the haters are turds


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> agreed
> 
> 40 years riding bikes HARD, have dented some, many have been tossed into trees, rocks...etc
> 
> never have I done any damage to top tube except sweat eating the paint. it's frickin rare to damage one ime


But it could happen at least in theory so this bike and mankind is doomed.


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

Tim-ti said:


> Yes, there is an air sleeve cylinder inside the frame, as shown at DigitBikes.com
> 
> The air chamber piston rides against the cartridge wall, not against the inside of the top tube. It is designed for improved reliability over conventional shocks, but if it gets worn or damaged, service is easier than on conventinonal shocks, as discussed at DigitBikes.com
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification(s). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

acer66 said:


> But it could happen at least in theory so this bike and mankind is doomed.


Well, _mankind_ is doomed, anyway.
=sParty


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

prj71 said:


> It's been done before. You don't think it hasn't been given a chance by consumers already?



Just spreading more of your sunshine around to other forums?


----------



## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

Why not to include integrated dropper?

Other than that I like the concept, however if the goal was to eliminate as much bearings as possible, i would go with hardtail, to me fs bike is about performance not about simplicity 


Cheers


----------



## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick_M said:


> Why not to include integrated dropper?
> 
> Other than that I like the concept, however if the goal was to eliminate as much bearings as possible, i would go with hardtail, to me fs bike is about performance not about simplicity
> 
> ...


As a devoted Heckler pedalrista I would say to me fs bike is about simplicity not about performance.😉


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Nick_M said:


> Why not to include integrated dropper?
> 
> Other than that I like the concept, however if the goal was to eliminate as much bearings as possible, i would go with hardtail, to me fs bike is about performance not about simplicity
> 
> Cheers


Indeed, if the goal were to eliminate all the of pivots a hard-tail or perhaps some sort of soft-tail would be the solution. The goal with Analog was to deliver multi-link performance, in line with the most respected short-link 4-bar systems; but with the reliability, bottle capacity, improved shock performance, stiffness, weight and other advantages mentioned. I tried my best to describe this, in video, pictures and about 1500 words at DigitBikes.com. 

I don’t understand the benefits of the integrated dropper, perhaps because I’ve never actually seen on in the flesh. The biggest advantage I see is the elimination of the seat post collar, which doesn’t seem significant to me. I understand that in theory it could be lighter because there could be one less tube, but IIRC it’s not in the few examples which have been made.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Tim-ti said:


> Indeed, if the goal were to eliminate all the of pivots a hard-tail or perhaps some sort of soft-tail would be the solution. The goal with Analog was to deliver multi-link performance, in line with the most respected short-link 4-bar systems; but with the reliability, bottle capacity, improved shock performance, stiffness, weight and other advantages mentioned. I tried my best to describe this, in video, pictures and about 1500 words at DigitBikes.com.
> 
> I don’t understand the benefits of the integrated dropper, perhaps because I’ve never actually seen on in the flesh. The biggest advantage I see is the elimination of the seat post collar, which doesn’t seem significant to me. I understand that in theory it could be lighter because there could be one less tube, but IIRC it’s not in the few examples which have been made.


Check out Eightpins. 
You set the bike's seat tube length to just enough clearance with the rear suspension bottomed out a slammed seat doesn't touch the tire. Then you end up with 210+mm of drop (infinitely adjustable seat height within a range) in about a 450 gram package. It has about a 33mm diameter, so it's reliable, has a break away function, they are extraordinarily smooth. 
It's the way forward. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I know of Eightpins, and if I ever get a chance I'm interested to sample one. Their website says a 216mm dropper weighs 619g, my One-Up by comparison offers 210mm at 570g (623g with the lever, Eightpins don't seen to specify). I believe there are other benefits, but at this time it would add engineering challenge to an already challenging endeavor, it's a potential for failure which I'm not prepared to risk at this stage.

Frankly, I think an integrated seat post would have scared away more people than it would have attracted, and I'm sure my frame builders would have begged me to use a tried and trusted seat collar.

Did you back the Kickstarter? If so was it reluctantly because of the clamped seat post? Or, if you didn't back the Kickstarter, was the lack of Eightpins the determining factor?


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Your bike is interesting but I'm not in the market with 2 '21 bikes currently (Spur & SJ Evo).
I would prefer a built in dropper on my next purchase however. 
In my younger years I'd often buy something new and unproven, and get burned. Prefer to purchase things that are well proven these days. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Your bike is interesting but I'm not in the market with 2 '21 bikes currently (Spur & SJ Evo).
> I would prefer a built in dropper on my next purchase however.
> In my younger years I'd often buy something new and unproven, and get burned. Prefer to purchase things that are well proven these days.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


Oh yes, I remember now you wrote about this on Vital last week. I’ve only had three people ever mention Eightpins to me, I hear you, I agree it’s interesting, but I don’t feel it’s mission critical for Digit at this time.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

mikesee said:


> Just spreading more of your sunshine around to other forums?


Just being pragmatic. Plenty of sunshine was spread in previous pages of this thread by numerous others before I even posted.

I wish Tim luck.


----------



## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

prj71 said:


> Just being pragmatic. Plenty of sunshine was spread in previous pages of this thread by numerous others before I even posted.
> 
> I wish Tim luck.


Well initially you just posted stating you’re and engineer and then just said you didnt like it. Nothing at all about why. Youre later statement of denting the top tube destroying it was a bit weak. A crash of that magnitude would just as likely dent the shock of other designs. 
i wish Tim success, innovation is good. Innivative designs may not catch on, or even be bad, but it advances knowledge and progress. 
my personal experience with crowdfunded projects have been successful, but require much care and research. I havent funded much, but was satisfied.
Im not currently in the market, but with meeting your funding goal and hopefully getting some product out there and sales, you can progress to more models. Id be awefully tempted if you could get the design into a gravel bike. I almost did the Niner mcr. If you came out with one that undercut the weight with a suspension that performed even better, be really tempting. But its a risky niche market that would be hard for a startup to risk.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Taroroot said:


> Well initially you just posted stating you’re and engineer and then just said you didnt like it. Nothing at all about why. Youre later statement of denting the top tube destroying it was a bit weak. A crash of that magnitude would just as likely dent the shock of other designs.
> i wish Tim success, innovation is good. Innivative designs may not catch on, or even be bad, but it advances knowledge and progress.
> my personal experience with crowdfunded projects have been successful, but require much care and research. I havent funded much, but was satisfied.
> Im not currently in the market, but with meeting your funding goal and hopefully getting some product out there and sales, you can progress to more models. Id be awefully tempted if you could get the design into a gravel bike. I almost did the Niner mcr. If you came out with one that undercut the weight with a suspension that performed even better, be really tempting. But its a risky niche market that would be hard for a startup to risk.


Please don't encourage him, he'll just come back and repeat himself.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

prj71 said:


> This assumes that this design is a good idea. As an engineer myself...unfortunately I don't think it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Being an engineer doesn’t mean much, I know lots of engineers who can’t change the oil in their car.

I believe the innovator for this bike is an engineer, so clearly there’s at least one engineer who believes it’ll work AND backed his words with action.

We don't need to hear from you again until you can do the same.


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

I am definitely interested. Look forward to seeing a production bike(s) and reviews.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Schril said:


> I am definitely interested. Look forward to seeing a production bike(s) and reviews.


I'm happy to hear this Schril. The protoype has been tested by some of the mags already:
betamtb.com
mbaction.com
cyclingindependent.com
bicycling.com, and I expect the production bikes to be significantly improved.

I'll likely be showing the production bikes at Sea Otter, and at other west coast events.


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

Can it be ran with a 29 rear wheel?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Schril said:


> Can it be ran with a 29 rear wheel?


This first model is specifically for 27.5" rear wheels with 29" front. As the buniness grows there will be more models, the next will most likely have 29" wheels front and rear, and a little less suspension travel.


----------



## greyshrike (Mar 8, 2020)

Following the thread. I would be interested in a short travel 29er!


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

What's the latest, got an update ? 
pictures of unassembled frames, 
anything to show current progress of making a production run become reality ?









Digit Datum MTB Frame — Digit Bikes


DATUM is a 140mm rear travel All-Mountain / Trail bike designed and manufactured in California, USA.




www.digitbikes.com


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks for the prompt 127.0.0.1 - things are going well, production is underway, and the improvements over the prototypes are working out as I'd hoped (which surprises me every time).

Recently I've been testing and tuning production shocks, they're so much better than what I had on the prototypes (those contained a hodge-podge damper parts borrowed from old bikes, and less negative spring volume than I'd thought ideal).

I just launched a proper website, with a blog page showing updates to frame parts, shocks, etc...

Here's the link: www.digitbikes.com/blog


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

you sure you aren't really TriFox in disguise ?

from web page
Video of the first production marts being machined


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> from web page
> Video of the first production marts being machined


Thanks for catching my typo. I'll bet there are more.


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

Hi Tim.
You have a redundant tube. The Top Tube.
If you flipped the shock around and rode the air can inside the Top Tube you would essentially isolate the damper piston from the bending loads.
This would make it similar to a WRC triple tube strut design.
It is my opinion this would be beneficial as bending loads on the damper body and piston can cause a significant increase to low speed damping and break away friction.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

KoolGrandWizardLuke said:


> Hi Tim.
> You have a redundant tube. The Top Tube.
> If you flipped the shock around and rode the air can inside the Top Tube you would essentially isolate the damper piston from the bending loads.
> This would make it similar to a WRC triple tube strut design.
> It is my opinion this would be beneficial as bending loads on the damper body and piston can cause a significant increase to low speed damping and break away friction.


Sorry KGWLuke, I don't quite understand, do you have an image or link you can share to explain this further?
As shown here, the air can is inside the top tube, and the damper is isolated from bending by bushings, which all the other parts are co-axial to.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Tim-ti said:


> Sorry KGWLuke, I don't quite understand, do you have an image or link you can share to explain this further?
> As shown here, the air can is inside the top tube, and the damper is isolated from bending by bushings, which all the other parts are co-axial to.


I'm pretty sure he's talking about:

Turning the shock around so the air can is on the unsprung-mass-side...
Upsizing the ID of the top tube so it can encompass the air can's OD, and then putting bushings between the two...
And use the inside of the top tube as a sliding surface for the outside of the air can.
Of course, this assumes that you can actually machine and polish the inside of the top tube, and anodize/coat it so it can work as a low-stiction sliding surface _after_ whatever distortions you introduce to the top tube inside surface in the course of welding-on the seat tube support strut, and heat-treating.


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

Hi Tim. I will try to get back to you on some pictures. However it is quite hard to get pictures of internal WRC parts.

Yes. You have essentially isolated the piston and piston rod from bending forces. However you are using the damper body itself as the strut. This means the damper body will bend.

To understand better we can look at automotive struts.
Standard car McPherson struts are designed cheap and space saving. They use the piston rod itself to take the lateral loads. This puts a load on all 3 elements. The piston rod, the piston itself, and the damper body.

We then look at motorsport struts, primarily rally struts, but also they are used for circuit use. They flip the whole damper unit upside down, and add a strut body which covers the piston rod and attaches to the wheel hub.
This essentially isolated the piston rod and piston from lateral loads. But because the damper body is still a structural piece and riding directly inside the new lower strut casing we still have bending loads on the damper body itself.
This is similar to how many forks will have an entirely separate unit inside the fork legs. To isolate them from the bending of the fork itself.
Back to struts. What was found was that there was significant friction generated by the bending of the damper body. There are several ways to reduce the friction here, and we must look at the unit as a whole and total friction. Because these methods reduce bending, lower friction on different parts.
The first method and probably most effective way to reduce total friction was to have the strut ride on roller bearings. However this adds significant cost, and the bearings also take up a lot more space than a plain bush.
Roller bearings were mostly made illegal in motorsports dampers due to cost.

After the rule changes about roller bearings new ways were looked into.
This is when the triple tube damper came about.
We revert back to having the damper body at the lower end, but we do not attach it to the wheel hub. Instead we add both an additional lower strut casing which attaches to the hub and also a upper strut casing. These two casings take all the bending load. Now we insert the damper body in the lower casing with clearance around it and secure it to the bottom. The upper casing slides over the piston rod and is secured to it.
We have now essentially isolated the damper from lateral forces.

Since your design already has a redundant Top Tube you would only need additional machining to make it fit to use as a sliding strut casing. Your Integer shock would be flipped so the largest diameter half out of and is riding inside the Top Tube.


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

Study this picture. Initial reaction is that it isa standard inverted rally strut.
But it is not actually 'inverted'. You will notice the damper body with oil is still actually on the bottom and there is a separate strut casing with clearance between the two. This allows room for the upper strut casing to slide between them.
The piston rod, piston, and damper body now take no lateral loads.

You have ALL of the parts and tubes already. You just have them configured in an inefficient design.

Here's a link which explains it aswell.


What is a Triple Tube Damper? | TEIN USA Blog


Most people even amateur rallyists and fans don't seem to know that the WRC world has moved from the standard inverted strut to the triple tube strut system. I believe the change happened in 2008 or 2009. You can actually tell visually if you look at the service park videos. Because the reservoir hose goes from coming out the top on normal inverted struts to being piggybacked on the bottom on triple tube struts.

Since we know Extreme Shox. Here you will see they list "Triple Tube Technology".








EXT WRC - Extreme Racing Shox


4 Way Adjustable: 1.REBOUND 2.HIGH SPEED COMPRESSION 3.LOW SPEED COMPRESSION 4.HBS FEATURES Full CNC Machined STRUT in 36NiCrMo16 Outer Chrome Tube 15CDV6 (UTS:1200 MPa): Ø 60 with DIAMOND LIKE CARBON (DLC) coating surface for low friction Inner Piston: Ø50 Chromed SHAFT: Ø16 Reservoir Piston...




www.extremeshox.com


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

KoolGrandWizardLuke said:


> Hi Tim. I will try to get back to you on some pictures. However it is quite hard to get pictures of internal WRC parts.
> 
> Yes. You have essentially isolated the piston and piston rod from bending forces. However you are using the damper body itself as the strut. This means the damper body will bend.
> 
> ...


I like the informed ideas you're presenting! I think this type of integrated platform has a lot of potential.

Though I can't help but wonder _IF_ the current design doesn't have any performance drawbacks, or durability issues, is there a significant benefit to a more complicated and expensive redesign/process?



> You have ALL of the parts and tubes already. You just have them configured in an inefficient design.


Again, can we define "inefficient" as it pertains to MTB suspension? While a lot of things translate from the offroad suspension stuff, not all of it applies directly to bikes in my experience. 

I'm not contesting your opinion, just would like to learn more.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

There are certainly many ways to approach any problem. I started out with many different strut concepts, and brought a few of them to prototype stage. I had a version with needle roller bearings which I really wanted to work because of the number of hours I had invested in it, but the bearings took up space which I found was better occupied by more air and oil, and I didn't want to make the top tube fatter and heavier, or add extra components or redundant layers of tubing.

Now that I think of it, the damper on the needle bearing prototype was inverted from the final design. It worked well, but I needed to run 600psi in the airspring which made it difficult to charge. I could've added another layer to the assembly to fix that, but adding parts and seals seemed to contradict the mission.

After much experimentation and hand wringing, I addressed this by locating/supporting the Integer strut in the top tube close to the bushings, which are shown unsectioned in the tan color in the image below. The damper piston, damper shaft, adjusters, etc..., sit above these and are unsupported, effectively floating in the top tube isolated from bending. Also the stanchion tube is really, really thick, and the bushings and everything in that region has very sturdy construction so that there's very little bending going on anyway.

I've worked in motorsports before, and love to learn of the different solutions to each design challenge. Perhaps I'll keep these concepts in mind when I get to the world cup downhill model where there's less need to be lightweight, servicable, etc...


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

Hi Tim. I see what you are saying.
Also a factor I had not considered which probably lessens the appeal of my idea in this application is that of course on the MTB Air shock the chamber with the piston rod is actually the air chamber. Which means there is a seal/bush riding in there anyway. This means that if you were to flip it as I suggested you would just be changing the bending loads onto this section.
On a 'normal' strut this section has no seals or bushes so putting the load there does not increase friction for them as there is of course no air chamber.
I still believe that technically it would be a better design though. But it also would add another layer of machining / work to be applied.

I'm no engineer myself, but I like to bring these ideas to the table so others can juggle the cost / packaging / maintenance etc.
Iwould highly recommend NOT looking further into a roller or needle bearing setup unless you had a way to make it sealed and in an oil bath.

On that. The problem with the WRC roller bearings was the top roller bearing which was exposed to the elements (although there was wipers).
To combat this issue of maintenance/cost Proflex developed a 'half roller' system. Hereby they used a plain bush on the outer most bush and used a roller bearing on the inside bush where it is protected from contaminants.

I have attached pictures of both the full roller bearing and half roller bearing with bush.


----------



## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

P.s. I presume you have good knowledge of Cannondale Lefty fork and it's progression?
They too followed Proflex and went from a full needle bearing setup with boot and grease, which needed constant maintenance to a much better design with a smaller needle bearing inside and a standard bush and seal head on the outside. This also allowed them to use fork oil for the needle bearing instead of grease.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Yes, I repurposed Headshok components in some of my earlier prototypes.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Tim-ti said:


> Thanks for the prompt 127.0.0.1 - things are going well, production is underway, and the improvements over the prototypes are working out as I'd hoped (which surprises me every time).
> 
> Recently I've been testing and tuning production shocks, they're so much better than what I had on the prototypes (those contained a hodge-podge damper parts borrowed from old bikes, and less negative spring volume than I'd thought ideal).
> 
> ...


You are in Irvine eh? Gonna be doing any demo days in SoCal?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

That’s my hope. Though it’s going to be a while before I have any unaccounted for bikes.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Tim-ti said:


> Sorry KGWLuke, I don't quite understand, do you have an image or link you can share to explain this further?
> As shown here, the air can is inside the top tube, and the damper is isolated from bending by bushings, which all the other parts are co-axial to.


What happens if you crash and put a dent in the top tube where the piston slides?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Oh, hello again. We discussed already starting in post 108, you were there.


----------



## cdalemaniac (Jun 18, 2007)

prj71 said:


> What happens if you crash and put a dent in the top tube where the piston slides?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I asked the same question before, I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking “what if”. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

what do you think will happen if you dent the tube where sliding action occurs ?

*you will damage the system and interfere with the sliding action duh*
just be careful and don't dent the thing

all bikes have a few vulnerabilities somewhere from crash or rock damage. you mitigate that
by avoiding all-out wrecks. pushing the envelope and sliding out and 'normal' diggers won't
do much to that top tube....this isn't 6 inch jump bike I don't think. but if you do bash it up,
that's the cost of doing business on any MTB not just this one

How often have I dented a top tube in >40 years of bike riding, racing, and sometimes wrecking ? -zero-. 
I have dented downtubes a few times though. 

as far as trying to recommend reengineering the piston/shock....note the whole bike
would need to be redesigned for it. don't think that is gonna happen...there needs to
be a starting point and many miles put in the current design anyway. also it comes out
from the headtube, so note whatever you may think would work in this design, also has to
be serviceable from the headtube, 'cuz it ain't coming out the rear unless you make a huge 
design change.

I know Tim has this forum on blast so as soon as I post this he'll see it. [I might be mostly right here...]


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

If you make a regular habit of crashing ONTO your top-tube you might need to re-consider the hobby of riding mountain bikes.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

It's not uncommon for mountain bikers to crash. And when the bike goes down there is a chance that the top tube could hit a rock and get dented and then this shock design no longer works. And depending on the design it could also get dented during a crash if there isn't clearance for the bars/brake levers if the front wheel spins around. If that happens with this bike...there you sit with a $4000 ornament.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Last time I checked, if you crack or dent _ANY_ top tube, you're in trouble... 

So, like any damaged frame, you get in touch with the manufacturer and look into sourcing a new front triangle.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> It's not uncommon for mountain bikers to crash. And when the bike goes down there is a chance that the top tube could hit a rock and get dented and then this shock design no longer works. And depending on the design it could also get dented during a crash if there isn't clearance for the bars/brake levers if the front wheel spins around. If that happens with this bike...there you sit with a $4000 ornament.


Does this happen to you a lot? Sounds like this sort of thing must happen a lot if it is so high on your list.

In 25 years of mountain biking and many OTB crashes I have never dented or even scratched a top tube. All the damage to my top tubes has come from a bike rack that clamped on the top tube. I sold that rack.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I’m not seeing all the posts in this thread and although I’m mildly curious, one of the reasons I don’t want to be a mod on MTBR is I wouldn’t be able to put dumb people or jerks on ignore.

I’ll let the curiosity remain. 
=sParty


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

prj71 said:


> It's not uncommon for mountain bikers to crash. And when the bike goes down there is a chance that the top tube could hit a rock and get dented and then this shock design no longer works. And depending on the design it could also get dented during a crash if there isn't clearance for the bars/brake levers if the front wheel spins around. If that happens with this bike...there you sit with a $4000 ornament.





FrankS29 said:


> Last time I checked, if you crack or dent _ANY_ top tube, you're in trouble...
> 
> So, like any damaged frame, you get in touch with the manufacturer and look into sourcing a new front triangle.





Klurejr said:


> Does this happen to you a lot? Sounds like this sort of thing must happen a lot if it is so high on your list.
> 
> In 25 years of mountain biking and many OTB crashes I have never dented or even scratched a top tube. All the damage to my top tubes has come from a bike rack that clamped on the top tube. I sold that rack.


I don't think it's fair to dismiss this mode of damage out-of-hand.

While this sort of frame damage isn't normal wear-and-tear, it _is_ something that happens occasionally (i.e. not rarely)... and with typical metal bikes it often isn't severe enough to trash the frame. A small, barely-there dent is normally perfectly rideable. But it does need to be considered that with this design, the clearance between the shock body OD and the top tube ID might be so tight that even a small, otherwise structurally-inconsequential deformation in the top tube might prevent the shock from being passed through the front for servicing.

This might simply call for a bit of care (read: eliminations of some bar positions) in bike setup, some adhesive armor plates (can be sexy carbon!) to that part of the top tube, and/or up-sizing the top tube diameter (and of course the ID) so that there's more clearance so that a reasonably minor dent won't affect getting the shock out.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

DtEW said:


> I don't think it's fair to dismiss this mode of damage out-of-hand.
> 
> While this sort of frame damage isn't normal wear-and-tear, it _is_ something that happens occasionally (i.e. not rarely)... and with typical metal bikes it often isn't severe enough to trash the frame. A small, barely-there dent is normally perfectly rideable. But it does need to be considered that with this design, the clearance between the shock body OD and the top tube ID might be so tight that even a small, otherwise structurally-inconsequential deformation in the top tube might prevent the shock from being passed through the front for servicing.
> 
> This might simply call for a bit of care (read: eliminations of some bar positions) in bike setup, some adhesive armor plates (can be sexy carbon!) to that part of the top tube, and/or up-sizing the top tube diameter (and of course the ID) so that there's more clearance so that a reasonably minor dent won't affect getting the shock out.


Of course this type of damage _could _happen, it's simply being pointed out that it's rare and honestly, that type of damage has the ability to render nearly any frame as scrap. 

If I crash and smack my Ripley's top tube on a rock and crack it, I'm also staring down the barrel of an expensive replacement. 

I also have a $750 rear derailleur dangling off the back of my Ripley, and a $1,000 fork that I could easily damage in a crash and need expensive parts to fix it, plenty of people have $2,500 carbon wheels... 

The list goes on and on. 

Mountain bikes are expensive toys that are prone to damage. 

If the cost of replacing something scares you, you have the ability to skip it and choose another product that fits your needs and wants better. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head here, Tim is just giving mountain bikers another _option_, and I think that's awesome.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

FrankS29 said:


> If the cost of replacing something scares you, you have the ability to skip it and choose another product that fits your needs and wants better. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head here, Tim is just giving mountain bikers another _option_, and I think that's awesome.


It's not a take-it-or-leave-it proposition esp. when a product is still in beta and the potential problem is addressable without wholesale changes to the concept and/or incurring unreasonable costs. I mean, addressing it not only opens the audience base to those who are concerned about this, but also eliminates customer service headaches (and probable Internet bad-mouthing) arising out of this in the future.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

DtEW said:


> It's not a take-it-or-leave-it proposition esp. when a product is still in beta and the potential problem is addressable without wholesale changes to the concept and/or incurring unreasonable costs. I mean, addressing it not only opens the audience base to those who are concerned about this, but also eliminates customer service headaches (and probable Internet bad-mouthing) arising out of this in the future.


Do it your way.
Start your own company.
=sParty


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

DtEW said:


> It's not a take-it-or-leave-it proposition esp. when a product is still in beta and the potential problem is addressable without wholesale changes to the concept and/or incurring unreasonable costs. I mean, addressing it not only opens the audience base to those who are concerned about this, but also eliminates customer service headaches (and probable Internet bad-mouthing) arising out of this in the future.


I think the bike is in production stage?

Maybe a V2 could address issues that arise when V1 is in the generally irresponsible and destructive public hands. 

But a lot of solutions tend to add complexity, weight and cost, it's all a balancing act.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

FrankS29 said:


> But a lot of solutions tend to add complexity, weight and cost, it's all a balancing act.


It is this. And this would be a question for Tim's engineer, accountant, and possibly brand manager. Which is why I'm a little confused by the general defensiveness of some of the responses... from _would-be end users_.

I know many of you want Tim's project to succeed... but pretending that it's perfect and dismissing criticism (which is different from addressing/defusing it) is not the way to make that happen.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

based on Tim prior projects, I assume he has hobknobbed with industry pro's who know a lot 
of bike engineering and would have given him tips and skepticism greater than being drummed up here, and
he's considered all of it....just a guess I don't know the guy, but what info I can gather, he's not being foolish
about the bike build and robustness and missing anything obvious


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

DtEW said:


> It is this. And this would be a question for Tim's engineer, accountant, and possibly brand manager. Which is why I'm a little confused by the general defensiveness of some of the responses... from _would-be end users_.
> 
> I know many of you want Tim's project to succeed... but pretending that it's perfect and dismissing criticism (which is different from addressing/defusing it) is not the way to make that happen.


Perhaps you & I look at this from a different perspective.
I admit I haven’t read every post in this thread but in any case I don’t recall Tim asking for our help in designing his bike.
So long as he doesn’t, it’s not my business.

It’s his.

So I’ll stand over here and see what he brings to market, then decide if I want to buy it or not.
Meanwhile I’m not going to tell Tim what he should or shouldn’t do until / unless he asks for some help.
I just consider my perspective to be common courtesy.
=sParty


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Sparticus said:


> Perhaps you & I look at this from a different perspective.
> I admit I haven’t read every post in this thread but in any case I don’t recall Tim asking for our help in designing his bike.
> So long as he doesn’t, it’s not my business.
> 
> ...


Whether Tim has asked for our help or not has no bearing on whether we can/should discuss/praise/trash his product.

A consistent application of your stated approach would mean that we don't talk about any product, but only vote with our dollars. Unless this approach is only about Tim.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

DtEW said:


> It is this. And this would be a question for Tim's engineer, accountant, and possibly brand manager. Which is why I'm a little confused by the general defensiveness of some of the responses... from _would-be end users_.
> 
> I know many of you want Tim's project to succeed... but pretending that it's perfect and dismissing criticism (which is different from addressing/defusing it) is not the way to make that happen.


I might be missing it, but who called the design perfect? 

I accept that nearly every design and product have some give and some take, a lot of it having to do with budgets. 

For me, I find the Pagani Zonda to be basically perfect, but since I don't have the millions of dollars to give someone for my own, I'll have to take settling for looking at pictures of it.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

DtEW said:


> Whether Tim has asked for our help or not has no bearing on whether we can/should discuss/praise/trash his product.
> 
> A consistent application of your stated approach would mean that we don't talk about any product, but only vote with our dollars. Unless this approach is only about Tim.


vote with our dollars ?


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

DtEW said:


> Whether Tim has asked for our help or not has no bearing on whether we can/should discuss/praise/trash his product.
> 
> A consistent application of your stated approach would mean that we don't talk about any product, but only vote with our dollars. Unless this approach is only about Tim.


There’s a line that we each have to decide where to draw. 
I’m just saying it looks like you & I draw that line in different places.
Nobody likes unsolicited advice. While I can’t say I never cross that line, I try to recognize doing so whenever it happens. 
I try to resist the urge in the first place. 
I’ll stay out of Tim’s business and then, once Tim has brought his creation to market, I’ll do as 127.0.0.1 suggests — I’ll vote with my dollars. 
Not before — unless Tim asks for my help. 
=sParty


----------



## flgfish (11 mo ago)

First time I’ve seen this design. It looks elegant and simple, and I quite like it. I think the goal of simplification is a worthy one, and the fact that you can fit lots of stuff in the front triangle is an added bonus.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> Whether Tim has asked for our help or not has no bearing on whether we can/should discuss/praise/trash his product.
> 
> A consistent application of your stated approach would mean that we don't talk about any product, but only vote with our dollars. Unless this approach is only about Tim.


well at this point you have provided your feedback on the product. Let it lie for a few years and lets see what happens. I am genuinely curious now to see just how many buyers on this frame have major issues from crashing in a way where the top tube gets a big enough dent in it to cause a problem.

Just because something is possible - that does not equate to it being Probable or even happening at all.

Is it Possible - Yes.
Is it Probably - No.
Will it happen - we have to wait and see.

Do I think it is going to be a major concern for those buying the bike - No.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> well at this point you have provided your feedback on the product. Let it lie for a few years and lets see what happens. I am genuinely curious now to see just how many buyers on this frame have major issues from crashing in a way where the top tube gets a big enough dent in it to cause a problem.
> 
> Just because something is possible - that does not equate to it being Probable or even happening at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm going to give this dented top tube scenario a 2.4/50 FMECA criticality ranking (though it's been over a decade since I had to do an actual FMECA analysis).









As I mentioned yesterday the strut is located in the top tube close to the bushings, and the air can floats within the top tube to isolate it from bending - there is some clearance between the air can portion of the shock body and the inner wall of the top tube. So, if you were to dent the top tube a little nothing would happen; if you dented it badly you might start to introduce bending to the strut, or the strut might protect the the top tube from the inside, or both - but at that point any frame might be ruined.

Because I wanted to very rigidly locate the strut I've not used very thin wall tubing, this brings with it good resistance to dents; also the top tube is low so stiking it with brake levers is unlikely. I've designed the Datum for sturdiness because I like sturdy bikes more than featherweight bikes; and because I feel that it's better to introduce new concepts in sturdy packages than to risk a new concept failing because the rest of the assembly is inadequate.

Frankly denting the top tube and damaging the shock is not something I feel is worth worrying over - at least no more than you would worry about denting your forks and damaging their guts, or your head tube and damaging the headset. Those things have happened, but I think that it's been of less concern since the featherweight 90's when it was barely of concern. Of course, I can't stop anyone from worrying, I can only offer my counsel as a mountain biker with decades of experience designing, engineering, riding and breaking bikes, and having tested the prototype Digits for years because the burden of proof for me was high on this. The prototypes have not been babied, they have cartwheeled down hills, and been witness to concussions.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

FrankS29 said:


> Last time I checked, if you crack or dent _ANY_ top tube, you're in trouble...


Not true at all. Depends on the severity. A small dent would not make a bike unrideable and the bike could still be ridden for years.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Does this happen to you a lot? Sounds like this sort of thing must happen a lot if it is so high on your list.


Has it happened to me? No. 

Do I know people it has happened to? Yes.

Do I know people riding around bikes with dented top tubes? Yes.

Especially prevalent for those that ride rock gardens and crash.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Has it happened to me? No.
> 
> Do I know people it has happened to? Yes.
> 
> ...


well that is a first. I have been riding since 1999 and have never met another rider, until now, where this has happened to them or someone they knew. Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket?


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> well that is a first. I have been riding since 1999 and have never met another rider, until now, where this has happened to them or someone they knew. Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket?


I'm letting Tim's claims stand, but I really have to respond that this sort of damage isn't that rare. I also know people that this happened to (granted, not on modern bikes, per Tim's stipulation about the delicacy of NORBA-era bikes), and the only reason I don't have this myself is because I took a bruised rib in lieu of it when I got chucked off the side of a ravine still clipped-in and upright, and only arrested (read: smacked) by hitting a tree, which swung the bars around into my still-forward-moving torso instead of my top tube.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> I'm letting Tim's claims stand, but I really have to respond that this sort of damage isn't that rare. I also know people that this happened to (granted, not on modern bikes, per Tim's stipulation about the delicacy of NORBA-era bikes), and the only reason I don't have this myself is because I took a bruised rib in lieu of it when I got chucked off the side of a ravine still clipped-in and upright, and only arrested (read: smacked) by hitting a tree, which swung the bars around into my still-forward-moving torso instead of my top tube.


So define rare then.

This happened to you once. How many years have you been riding? How many miles have you put on bikes in that time? How many crashes have you had total, and of those in how many of them was the top tube damaged?


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> So define rare then.
> 
> This happened to you once. How many years have you been riding? How many miles have you put on bikes in that time? How many crashes have you had total, and of those in how many of them was the top tube damaged?


By that definition TBI is rare too, so why wear a helmet? I have never (knock-on-wood) taken a major hit on my helmet to where it was obvious that it saved me from TBI. Does that mean that the risk of TBI is to be dismissed with "go buy a lottery ticket"?

It's about foreseeability given typical use as related to cost of doing nothing to mitigate the potential harm vs. the cost of that mitigation.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

DtEW said:


> By that definition TBI is rare too, so why wear a helmet? I have never (knock-on-wood) taken a major hit on my helmet to where it was obvious that it saved me from TBI. Does that mean that the risk of TBI is to be dismissed with "go buy a lottery ticket"?
> 
> It's about foreseeability given typical use as related to cost of doing nothing to mitigate the potential harm vs. the cost of that mitigation.


I can only speak from my experience, but I've seen WAY more cracked helmets than top tubes... 

Just a guess, but I'm not sure your helmet argument is going to hold water here.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

FrankS29 said:


> I can only speak from my experience, but I've seen WAY more cracked helmets than top tubes...


Conversely, I have seen about as many cracked helmets as damaged top tubes.

I started my MTB obsession in '95, and tapered off in '12, and picked this up again in '20. Aside from geography and demographics, maybe the difference between your observation and mine is that of the period of observation.



FrankS29 said:


> Just a guess, but I'm not sure your helmet argument is going to hold water here.


To reiterate, with underscored emphasis:

It's about foreseeability given typical use as related to cost of doing nothing to mitigate the potential harm vs. the cost of that mitigation.

If the potential cost of the unmitigated damage would be high while the cost of mitigations are low for the type of incident that while practically doesn't happen too often... but is nevertheless too obvious to be categorized as an unforeseeable freak occurrence... it might be worth mitigating.

To put it one more way: In my circle of observation, direct and vicarious, I have known exactly only one severely bent rear derailleur hanger where you would say, "that replaceable derailleur hanger saved that frame". This just doesn't seem to be as critical of a feature out here. And yet we all accept it as a good idea, because such damage is 1) foreseeable, if not practically common out here; and 2) the cost of its implementation (both money and weight/practicality) is low relative to the potential cost of taking the damage without mitigation. Heck, I bought extra hangers for the eMTBs we bought last year. But you know what? It costs more to implement a replaceable derailleur hanger than to spec a slightly bigger/thicker top tube.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

DtEW said:


> Conversely, I have seen about as many cracked helmets as damaged top tubes.
> 
> I started my MTB obsession in '95, and tapered off in '12, and picked this up again in '20. Aside from geography and demographics, maybe the difference between your observation and mine is that of the period of observation.



Rode from the mid 90's to about 2007, then was off the bike for many years.  Picked back up in 2014 and here we are. 

First "real" mountain bike was an early 90's rigid Specialized Rockhopper, then several Stumpjumper HT's in a row... 

I've been around the block a couple of times and I was certainly involved in the sport during a lot of the questionable weight weenie stuff.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

only top tube dent I've ever seen is when someone forgot the bike was on the roof rack and slammed into garage or drivethru


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

127.0.0.1 said:


> only top tube dent I've ever seen is when someone forgot the bike was on the roof rack and slammed into garage or drivethru


you need to get out and ride more...


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> well that is a first. I have been riding since 1999 and have never met another rider, until now, where this has happened to them or someone they knew. Maybe you should buy a lottery ticket?


I've been riding mountain bikes since 1985. Maybe you need to get out more than once a month. 

Just because YOU haven't seen it happen doesn't mean that it can't/won't or hasn't happened. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> well that is a first. I have been riding since 1999 and have never met another rider, until now,


seriously? top tube dents are as prevalent as chainstay dents. maybe open your eyes once in a while...

sh!t, just on this website alone, there are a few hundred pages worth of threads specifically about dented top tubes...


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> you need to get out and ride more...


average 10,000 miles a year in my 50's today ...down from 20,000 a year in my 20's. 

so sorry I don't ride enough


----------



## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

127.0.0.1 said:


> average 10,000 miles a year in my 50's today ...down from 20,000 a year in my 20's.
> 
> so sorry I don't ride enough


Maybe you should not get out and ride less. That way you have more time to look for top tube dents in other people's bikes.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> By that definition TBI is rare too, so why wear a helmet? I have never (knock-on-wood) taken a major hit on my helmet to where it was obvious that it saved me from TBI. Does that mean that the risk of TBI is to be dismissed with "go buy a lottery ticket"?
> 
> It's about foreseeability given typical use as related to cost of doing nothing to mitigate the potential harm vs. the cost of that mitigation.





FrankS29 said:


> I can only speak from my experience, but I've seen WAY more cracked helmets than top tubes...
> 
> Just a guess, but I'm not sure your helmet argument is going to hold water here.



oh wow... DtEW that is not a good example at all. Since I have started riding Mountain Bikes I have hit my helmet on the ground, rocks, roots or trees multiple times. I have thrown away at least 4 cracked helmets. My son who is 6 Cracked a helmet a few months ago and I bought him a new one. I still have yet to see a dented top tube.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> I've been riding mountain bikes since 1985. Maybe you need to get out more than once a month.
> 
> Just because YOU haven't seen it happen doesn't mean that it can't/won't or hasn't happened.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


What makes you think I only ride once a month? That is a pretty big assumption about a stranger on the internet that you do not actually know.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I been playing the 'bikes are my entire life' game since age 5, serious miles started when I was 14 on a huffy 3-speed, serious bikes came at age 18....and in all that time chasing wheels, eating dirt and mung, living in bike shop basements....only 1 single top tube dent from -riding- I've ever seen. so, that is my experience


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> oh wow... DtEW that is not a good example at all. Since I have started riding Mountain Bikes I have hit my helmet on the ground, rocks, roots or trees multiple times. I have thrown away at least 4 cracked helmets. My son who is 6 Cracked a helmet a few months ago and I bought him a new one. I still have yet to see a dented top tube.


My younger daughter also cracked her first helmet at about 6 years old. 

She wanted it added to my "wall of shame" collection of broken helmets, but her mother had already tossed it. 

She was NOT happy her helmet was going to be left out.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> oh wow... DtEW that is not a good example at all. Since I have started riding Mountain Bikes I have hit my helmet on the ground, rocks, roots or trees multiple times. I have thrown away at least 4 cracked helmets. My son who is 6 Cracked a helmet a few months ago and I bought him a new one. I still have yet to see a dented top tube.


So my knee-jerk reaction to this would have been, “wow, how are you guys riding where making uncontrolled landings with your head is that common?” But it just takes a fractional turn in thought to conclude that I have no idea how you ride, what sort of terrain typifies your ride, what sort of athletic background you have, how you react in instinctive situations, etc. I have no right to dismiss your observed experience with my varying personal observed experience.

So please consider that in return. The pursuit of mountain biking is wide in both the people that are drawn into it, and the approach they take, and so we all have differing experiences and concerns. I tend toward inclusivity. I don’t dismiss other’s experiences with cranial impacts despite my relative lack of experience (knock on wood) with them. I’m even inclined toward a lightweight full-face now that I’m primarily eMTBing in a much cooler climate than the years I cut my teeth in SoCal. I haven’t pretzeled my rear derailleur hanger (also knock on wood), and yet I don’t go dismissing those who would see the absence of a replaceable one as a dealbreaker.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> So my knee-jerk reaction to this would have been, “wow, how are you guys riding where making uncontrolled landings with your head is that common?” But it just takes a fractional turn in thought to conclude that I have no idea how you ride, what sort of terrain typifies your ride, what sort of athletic background you have, how you react in instinctive situations, etc. I have no right to dismiss your observed experience with my varying personal observed experience.
> 
> So please consider that in return. The pursuit of mountain biking is wide in both the people that are drawn into it, and the approach they take, and so we all have differing experiences and concerns.


So we can agree that neither of our words or experiences is Gospel, and really until we get more data points from owners of this particular bike we won't know if it is really the end of the world scenario some are making it out to be.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> So we can agree that neither of our words or experiences is Gospel, and really until we get more data points from owners of this particular bike we won't know if it is really the end of the world scenario some are making it out to be.


As I said, I was going to let Tim’s claims stand. Because they are assuring-enough right now in the absence of empirical data to the contrary. He noted that the shock body needs clearance to float and be isolated from bending loads. And I think it could be assumed that the top tube is at least butted at the rear end so 1) the seat tube strut can be welded without punching through, and 2) there’s enough material to cut threads at the end for the seal/bushing cap, all of which implying more ID mid-tube. Or if straight guage, certainly thick enough overall to accommodate the prior rear end concerns.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I want to add 'cuz I am a tool...


I think sure, people may have seen a lot of top tube dents, but then I haven't and Klurejr hasn't, so maybe it is rare enough and random enough
that no, it is not an epidemic, not very common, but there may be regional flare ups where it may be seen more often than we've seen, but
overall, bike population-wise, pretty damn rare.

don't see a lot of top-tube armor products out there like we see downtube armoring, so there's that as well. if it were an epidemic
someone would profit off it and make a top tube protector, donchathink ? >>knock block aside that is, handlebar whacks are a different story entirely
and I haven't seen any of those either to be frank...


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Suggestion:
Many riders haven't ever dented a top tube.
Some have.
I have.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
If you're someone to worry about denting a top tube, then just don't buy Tim's bike.
OTOH if you're someone to not worry about denting a top tube, then you probably won't rule Tim's bike out of consideration.
Problem solved.
No need to try to convince other people on the internet one way or the other.
Cuz you won't.
Oh by the way, I mentioned I dented a top tube.
It was an anomaly.
I've owned at least 3 dozen mountain bikes throughout the past 37 years of off-road cycling and dented one top tube.
One time.
I don't even know how it got dented. I probably wasn't being careful and dropped it on a rock.
I was always cruel to that bike.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Datum bike out of fear of top tube denting.
Disagree? Feel differently? Then just don't buy one. Simple as that.
But stop implying that this bike or any other is unworthy of consideration because it's top tube damage prone.
Stop trying to convince the rest of the world that they should share your unrealistic fear of denting top tubes.
Again,the solution is just don't buy a Datum. Get a support stuffed animal instead.
=sParty


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> Again,the solution is just don't buy a Datum. Get a support stuffed animal instead.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Why not argue about who's seen a *___* damaged? It's mountain biking, **** happens. Nothing is impervious to random WTF kind of damage. This is no different. Frames break, wheels break, suspension breaks, rear hubs tend to explode when I'm in there general vicinity... This frame design has my full attention and it would NOT stop me from buying one.

You guys are so focused on a ridiculous side topic. It really has nothing to do with the Digit bike. Just start a new thread with a poll and get it over with already.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Done.








How many times have you dented your Top Tube over the years?


There has been some interesting discussion in a thread on this site about Damage to a top tube and how it would impact a frame designed with a shock inside the top tube. Some in the thread have rarely or never had a top tube get dented during their MTB riding History and other say it has...




www.mtbr.com


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

If you were to ask how many people have seen aliens, people who have seen aliens are going to eagerly respond. Those who think it’s a ridiculous question or not applicable to them likely won’t even click on your link to look at the poll.

I’ve worked in customer service at shops and for other bike companies, and had tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of bikes built to my designs. Everything breaks, but having given this consideration and having designed to mitigate any concern, this isn’t something to be worried about for most people. If you are concerned though, just move on.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim-ti said:


> If you were to ask how many people have seen aliens, people who have seen aliens are going to eagerly respond. Those who think it’s a ridiculous question or not applicable to them likely won’t even click on your link to look at the poll.
> 
> I’ve worked in customer service at shops and for other bike companies, and had tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of bikes built to my designs. Everything breaks, but having given this consideration and having designed to mitigate any concern, this isn’t something to be worried about for most people. If you are concerned though, just move on.


Tim,
I'm replying because I received an alert that you'd replied to my post (assuming the one directly prior to this post of yours.)
If you did indeed reply to my post, then you deleted the quoted portion. But the alert that I received compelled me to post this response.

I agree with your summation above about participation in polls.
As for the other thread (poll thread), I did not start the poll or have any input in it, I only inserted the link to that (poll) thread into my prior post within this thread.

I spent 30 years working for a newspaper that conducted polls every year.
Political polls, shopping polls, community project polls -- you name it.
The people who drafted these polls for the newspaper were educated in the ways that polls can be skewed by the questions asked, skewed by the way the questions are asked, skewed by the groups of people solicited to participate in the polls and other factors, all of which affect poll outcomes.
Often the poll results are distorted unless many factors are carefully considered in advance of launching the poll.
Truth: many if not most polls are worthless.

Just want to be clear about my lack of involvement in the linked poll thread.
Not saying the poll thread is or is not well thought out, not saying the results will or will not be biased, not praising or condemnig the poll, just saying I wasn't involved in the drafting of it.
I did, however, cast my vote and explained my situation as instructed.
=sParty


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Meanwhile here’s what I’ve been up to today:








Digit Bikes on Instagram: "How do you add music on IG? Clearly this is 🤘🏼metal🤘🏼"


Digit Bikes shared a post on Instagram: "How do you add music on IG? Clearly this is 🤘🏼metal🤘🏼". Follow their account to see 169 posts.




www.instagram.com


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

That was my mistake, I must’ve hit ‘quote’ not ‘reply’, so I then edited to fix it.
I never read the instructions after the 🌶 🌶 🌶 🌶’s went away, maybe I should. 


Sparticus said:


> Tim,
> I'm replying because I received an alert that you'd replied to my post (assuming the one directly prior to this post of yours.)
> If you did indeed reply to my post, then you deleted the quoted portion. But the alert that I received compelled me to post this response.
> 
> ...


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> Done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Results are interesting so far. I honestly did not know what to expect and I certainly hope for more participation to ensure the numbers are realistic from the community.


----------



## DeoreDX (Jul 28, 2007)

If it's that big of a concerns to you, you can always pad or armor the area to help mitigate the failure mode


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

I have ridden mtb since the mid-80's never once dented a top tube, marred a stanchion or even dented a fork lower. I have taken my share of beaters, maybe I've been lucky. With that said, I am not concerned nor would I be about denting a top tube. I am very interested in the bike and am waiting on its release and the eventual 29er version and support Tim for making this happen, we need more people like you. I for one am over bike company's excuses about needing to manufacture elsewhere and getting a hall pass on either quality and/or design issues.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> What makes you think I only ride once a month? That is a pretty big assumption about a stranger on the internet that you do not actually know.


What makes you think that top tube dents never happen?

That's a pretty bit assumption to think they don't happen often. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

prj71 said:


> What makes you think that top tube dents never happen?
> 
> That's a pretty bit assumption to think they don't happen often.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I didnt say never. I said it was so rare it was not worth making a point of it, and so far the poll I started is reflecting that opinion.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I didnt say never. I said it was so rare it was not worth making a point of it, and so far the poll I started is reflecting that opinion.


Um, a quarter of the respondents so far are attesting experience with it. That's rather substantial.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> Um, a quarter of the respondents so far are attesting experience with it. That's rather substantial.


In reading people's replies I am seeing a number of them who have been riding for over 30 years without ever experiencing it. Some who are reporting it are considering a paint chip or scratch to be a dent.... the poll is not scientific at all, but so far it is showing that dents to top tubes are rare.


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> In reading people's replies I am seeing a number of them who have been riding for over 30 years without ever experiencing it. Some who are reporting it are considering a paint chip or scratch to be a dent.... the poll is not scientific at all, but so far it is showing that dents to top tubes are rare.


If you’re going to construct a poll, ignore the empirical results and the testimonials of real damage, and choose to paint the overall results with the few that sound like superficial damage… then wow.

There’s nothing more to be said.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DtEW said:


> If you’re going to construct a poll, ignore the empirical results and the testimonials of real damage, and choose to paint the overall results with the few that sound like superficial damage… then wow.
> 
> There’s nothing more to be said.


Do you honestly believe the guy who claims to have dented the top tubes on 17 bikes? That seems extremely far fetched.

There are no empirical results with a poll like this. We have to trust that everyone voting is doing so in good faith and I am certain there are some that are not. It is just an interesting data point.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

-


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

If someone has dented 17 top tubes, they suck at mountain biking. 
=sParty


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Sparticus said:


> If someone has dented 17 top tubes, they suck at mountain biking.
> =sParty


Or, they are Sam Pilgrim…


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Do you honestly believe the guy who claims to have dented the top tubes on 17 bikes? That seems extremely far fetched.


He sounds like a troll to me.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> I didnt say never. I said it was so rare it was not worth making a point of it, and so far the poll I started is reflecting that opinion.




If it's not worth making a point of it then why this thread?


----------



## Offthepath (Dec 29, 2020)

Sometimes the BS on this forum amazes me.

It seems like the 2 people who keep going on about top tubes are jealous of Tim's design. 

If it bothers you, don't buy the bike and move on. 

On the other hand, this reminds me of the pages and pages about the Fezzari name by all the self proclaimed internet marketing guru's. Yet in the end it generated tons of publicity for Fezzari. 

Maybe Tim is loving this nonsense and it's great exposure


----------



## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

Months of quietness in this thread. Then tons of posts and a poll, all in a week, about the top tube. Of a bike that has rave reviews and is probably already sold out. Man, I love the internet 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm just glad the Datum doesn't have anything to do with Fezzari.
=sParty


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

socalrider77 said:


> Months of quietness in this thread. Then tons of posts and a poll, all in a week, about the top tube. Of a bike that has rave reviews and is probably already sold out. Man, I love the internet
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its like Yelp, the worst review of my favorite burger.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Offthepath said:


> Maybe Tim is loving this nonsense and it's great exposure


for his sake I certainly hope so! 

🚲🚲🚲🚲🚲🚲🚲🚲🚲


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I said it was so rare it was not worth making a point of it.


I think it's worth making a point. Why not? It's called constructive criticism. But for some reason...some of you go on the defense for Tim as if it's personal. It's not.

If I'm on a FS bike, of the variety that exists today, and I crash and dent the top tube at least my rear shock and the bike will still be usable.

Another thing is service. What about the guy that doesn't want to or like to work on his own bike but prefers to bring it in to the bike shop? I doubt a LBS will want to touch the bike when the shock needs service. As it stands right now, very few shops want to or know how to do shock service...they end up sending shocks and forks out to someone else to work on.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

All this arguing about denting a top tube when the solution is so simple, and potentially profitable. 








What better way to bring your BMX background to the foreground?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

As has been mentioned in almost all of the media coverage and in the web materials - the strut can be serviced by a compenent mechanic, no unusual tools are required, the service procedure is easier than for most shocks. Alternatively folk will be able to mail them in for service.

As for the constructive criticism. Thank you for your concern, you have been heard. As I've mentioned in reply to this concern, this is something which was considered in the design. While denting a frame tube is not an impossible scenario, it is not something which I'm worried about, if you are in the market for a bike and worry about this there are plenty of other bikes out there competing for your purchase. Each will likely bring it's own unique causes for concern, but there might be a better fit for you.

Hearing your concern over and over is not constructive for me. I can't speak for others, but it seems that it has frustrated many here. 



prj71 said:


> I think it's worth making a point. Why not? It's called constructive criticism. But for some reason...some of you go on the defense for Tim as if it's personal. It's not.
> 
> If I'm on a FS bike, of the variety that exists today, and I crash and dent the top tube at least my rear shock and the bike will still be usable.
> 
> Another thing is service. What about the guy that doesn't want to or like to work on his own bike but prefers to bring it in to the bike shop? I doubt a LBS will want to touch the bike when the shock needs service. As it stands right now, very few shops want to or know how to do shock service...they end up sending shocks and forks out to someone else to work on.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

personally, i was never trying to slam DIGIT themselves. i've broken plenty bikes in every way possible and dented every tube in all conceivable manners. if i was to discredit a particular frame because of my past experiences of busted bikes, i'd never ride another bike again. i was just shocked that there so many people who have never really seen frame damage on the toptube...


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Offthepath said:


> If it bothers you, don't buy the bike and move on.


Yeah, I really don't see the problem. I don't like Sram brakes, so I don't buy sram brakes.

If it's not for you, just move along.


----------



## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

Tim-ti said:


> I’m sure there will be metrics by which it will be inferior and disciplines for which the first model will be unsuited. There’s no BEST of anything. But for me this is better enough in so many ways that I’m betting the farm.


There are rear suss designs out there now that turned the lower shock mount 90deg, effectively doing something similar to your design here. They work, so yours ought to.(IIRC, the Unno Burn is one that has what I describe. I SALIVATE over that bike!)

Good luck with it!


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> I didnt say never. I said it was so rare it was not worth making a point of it, and so far the poll I started is reflecting that opinion.


From the Intense forum...



SabbathU71 said:


> Thought I’d share my journey with you all.
> 
> This Primer 29 is my first new bike in 17 years. I worked hard to get to the point where I could finally buy a new modern bike. Damn mortgage and real life bills!
> 
> Anyway, a couple of weeks ago, I crashed my Primer frame down hard in a rock garden and cracked the top tube.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Hey, Tim, just saw Digit featured on GMBN. Congratulations!


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks Chazpat. I’m hoping there’ll be a stream news and reviews coming in the next few months.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Cool! I've been out of the loop. Are Datums now available and shipping? Great news!
=sParty


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I’m building in batches. The first are sold and will go out in a few weeks; orders placed now should ship in about six weeks (they said ten in the GMBN video).


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

They’re better in every way than the prototypes, which was already well received in its reviews.
Here’s how they look:


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

When is the 150mm version coming out?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

The Datum (this model) is 140 rear, 160 fork (150mm average is what you meant, right😉).
Next will be shorter travel trail bike.
After that probably something with more travel, but likely more than a 10mm increment - otherwise I’d have two very similar models.
It’s hard to say how many days/weeks/months/years might come between model launches.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Do you have reasonably accurate kinematic diagrams and ‘descriptions’? 
thanks


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Here’s my website description digitbikes.com/analog and some discussion including a test ride: betamtb.com/bike-tests/trail/a-better-moustrap-first-ride-on-the-us-built-digit-datum/.


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

thanks. How about kinematic diagrams?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

I’m guessing you mean the anti-squat, anti-rise, etc graphs. I published those when the Kickstarter launched, the linkage has evolved slightly since then but they’re relatively representative (my apologies I’ve not gotten around to updating them - I’ve got quite a lot going on). They’re shown (and IIRC also discussed in the comments) here: pinkbike.com/news/first-look-the-digit-datum-has-shock-strut-suspension.html


----------



## coachxtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

hi tim, i may have missed the part in the thread where this was covered but will volume spacing be an option with the strut?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Volume spacers can be installed in the air spring. So far, everybody who’s ridden the bikes has preferred the same volume.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

It's been a year, and now the previously paywalled Beta article is public: : betamtb.com/news-issues/why-its-ok-that-the-digit-datum-has-a-proprietary-rear-shock.

IIRC someone on this thread asked for this. I've shared everything in different words elsewhere, but I was quite pleased with my writing in this piece.


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Review up on Pinkbike as well.
Seems like Alicia could have benefited from a smaller frame, but seemed like a fairly positive review overall.


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-the-digit-datum-delivers-on-most-of-its-promises.html



Of course, always haters in the comments.
I'm still intrigued and would be interested in a 130F/120R 29er version that would take a 2.6" tire.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Redlands R&C said:


> Review up on Pinkbike as well.
> Seems like Alicia could have benefited from a smaller frame, but seemed like a fairly positive review overall.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pleased that the suspension, and other inventive aspects were invisibly capable, that the only real concern was that it didn't fit her body/style very well.

If Alicia's inseam is the same length as mine, her torso must be around 2" shorter, which would seem to indicate that a smaller size would be a better fit - perhaps that's why many companies don't even give size recommendations.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

At 5'8" I would have to size down to a small. I'm fine with the STA being 75. The ETT looks longer than any bike I've ridden. I would need a reverse setback post to reach the handlebar on a medium.


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Tim-ti said:


> I'm pleased that the suspension, and other inventive aspects were invisibly capable, that the only real concern was that it didn't fit her body/style very well.
> 
> If Alicia's inseam is the same length as mine, her torso must be around 2" shorter, which would seem to indicate that a smaller size would be a better fit - perhaps that's why many companies don't even give size recommendations.


Over on the PB comment's I thought I saw mention of stack height or headtube length being on the short side. I'm in the camp of longer headtubes/riser bars. What is your take on that comment?
Just for reference, I'm 6' also, current bike has 5" headtube plus external lower cup, 150mm fork and I'm on a 40mm rise bar.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Redlands R&C said:


> Over on the PB comment's I thought I saw mention of stack height or headtube length being on the short side. I'm in the camp of longer headtubes/riser bars. What is your take on that comment?
> Just for reference, I'm 6' also, current bike has 5" headtube plus external lower cup, 150mm fork and I'm on a 40mm rise bar.


I'm 6'0" and that was my personal bike before it became the review bike. I have a 20mm riser bar on it, and I think 15mm of spacers (the stem is 40mm). Maybe I should try a higher rise.

When designing the frame I referenced lots of other bikes. My goal was to make the geometry completely unremarkable, so that if I hated it it would be because of the new aspects, not something fundamental.


----------



## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

Been seeing this pop up on radar recently and gotta say well done on the design. 

May I ask without reading whole of this thread, who designed and supplies the shocks?

Dunno what price is in £ sterling though seems v f pricey if gauging pricing at around £3500.
I'd like one and like fancy kit though this appears bonkers krazey to obtain.

I do however wish you all the very best mind  👍


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Tinstigator said:


> Been seeing this pop up on radar recently and gotta say well done on the design.
> 
> May I ask without reading whole of this thread, who designed and supplies the shocks?
> 
> ...


I designed and manufacture the shock. The seals, bushings, supplies, etc are all available from industrial hardware suppliers (and I have stock too). There's a this here: betamtb.com/news-issues/why-its-ok-that-the-digit-datum-has-a-proprietary-rear-shock

The GBP exchange rate is pretty shakey recently, unfortunately there's not a lot we can do abou that. Last time I looked a Digit was priced similarly to a Geometron or Reeb.


----------



## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

Hmmm now this is intriguing, hats off to you.

Re: sure no way I'd expect you to have any control of £ - $ etc obvs.

Keep up your talent & skills 👍


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Tinstigator said:


> Hmmm now this is intriguing, hats off to you.
> 
> Re: sure no way I'd expect you to have any control of £ - $ etc obvs.
> 
> Keep up your talent & skills 👍


Honestly, there's a correlation. It was at £2.40/$ when I was born, and £1.70/$ when I emmigrated. I like to feel the world takes notice🤪🤑.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

A CF T800 uber lightweight 125/ 130 travel DC version of this frame would be incredible imo.

Just add a 442mm CS length to the large and if you could just get an extra .5 -1' steeper sta everything else is dialed.

Do the Eightpins dropper while you are at it for the perfect ripping DownCountry bike.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> A CF T800 uber lightweight 125/ 130 travel DC version of this frame would be incredible imo.
> 
> Just add a 442mm CS length to the large and if you could just get an extra .5 -1' steeper sta everything else is dialed.
> 
> Do the Eightpins dropper while you are at it for the perfect ripping DownCountry bike.


I've used some T800 in road bike frames, but it's a bit fragile for MTB frames in my experience. From what I've seen manufacturers blend small amounts in to their frames so they cam claim it in their marketing materials. 
Is the weight is more important to you than the particular ingredients? How much does your current frame weigh? The aluminum Datum is 6.39lbs (large, with shock), lighter than many carbon frames.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

That's a great weight. 

Of course in a DC bike I'd want as light as reasonably possible and to lose another pound or so. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

The black Datum in the most of the photos so far is so stealthy that it's hard to photograph well.
I just got the first bright frames from the anodizer, the colors really pop in the sunlight, you check 'em out in the video here: tinyurl.com/mvtx8c8k


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

Tim-ti said:


> The black Datum in the most of the photos so far is so stealthy that it's hard to photograph well.
> I just got the first bright frames from the anodizer, the colors really pop in the sunlight, you check 'em out in the video here: tinyurl.com/mvtx8c8k


Red looks super good!


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I would eagerly & confidently buy a Digit Datum if I were in the market for a new bike.
Sadly (I guess), as things currently stand I’m hard pressed to justify the number of bikes I already own.
Anyway, well done, Tim.  May much success come your way.
=sParty


----------



## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

HereHere!


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Tim-ti said:


> Is the weight is more important to you than the particular ingredients? How much does your current frame weigh? *The aluminum Datum is 6.39lbs (large, with shock), lighter than many carbon frames.*


Gah I wish you were doing a full 29er because that weight for that travel is really intriguing, especially as I've become less particular about rear suspension action.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Tim, you replied to my comment on Pinkbike, but I'll ask here too:

Do you think you could reduce the weight of the frame further if you did more an XC/TR construction goal? My thinking is probably not, especially if you made the frame a 29er f/r, because the added material for the 29er would probably offset any reduction in material used elsewhere. 

I really do like the idea of this frame adapted in 29er format with 140mm/140mm front/rear travel. If it could retain that same frame weight, you could easily end up with a 28lbs trail bike with two bottles inside the frame (or plenty of space for a frame bag).


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

PHeller said:


> ... especially as I've become less particular about rear suspension action.


PHeller, to me the words above imply that you feel the Datum's suspension action is second class (inasmuch as you feel you need to be less particular about suspension action in order to accept it.)
Curious is this is the case or if the inference I seem to sense in your wording is just my imagination running away with me. 
=sParty


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Yes. I plan on reducing the weight of the frame further with more an XC/TR construction goal.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> PHeller, to me the words above imply that you feel the Datum's suspension action is second class (inasmuch as you feel you need to be less particular about suspension action in order to accept it.)
> Curious is this is the case or if the inference I seem to sense in your wording is just my imagination running away with me.
> =sParty


My goal was to make it perform as well as the short-link-4-bar systems (such as DW, VPP, etc...) which I feel are the most highly regarded. Every review so far, and my experience and testing among locals has indicated that that goal has been achieved.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> PHeller, to me the words above imply that you feel the Datum's suspension action is second class (inasmuch as you feel you need to be less particular about suspension action in order to accept it.)
> Curious is this is the case or if the inference I seem to sense in your wording is just my imagination running away with me.
> =sParty


More that different designs feel different, and some people believe strongly that the suspension designs holds back their skills. Hence the proliferation of high pivot, idler, multi-link, and other complex designs - the marketing of "more pivots are more better."

That doesn't mean the Datum will feel bad, but it likely wouldn't feel like a Forbidden Druid, or an Evil Following, or a Yeti SB140. That's ok - bikes can feel different and that doesn't mean they have to hold you back as an individual rider.

EDIT: one thing I really like is the low leverage rate of the Digit. As a bigger guy, I want more bikes like the Foes stuff, and less like the sky-high leverage ratio bikes with little stroke shocks.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

PHeller said:


> More that different designs feel different, and some people believe strongly that the suspension designs holds back their skills. Hence the proliferation of high pivot, idler, multi-link, and other complex designs - the marketing of "more pivots are more better."
> 
> That doesn't mean the Datum will feel bad, but it likely wouldn't feel like a Forbidden Druid, or an Evil Following, or a Yeti SB140. That's ok - bikes can feel different and that doesn't mean they have to hold you back as an individual rider.
> 
> EDIT: one thing I really like is the low leverage rate of the Digit. As a bigger guy, I want more bikes like the Foes stuff, and less like the sky-high leverage ratio bikes with little stroke shocks.


"A machine is not considered perfect unless it is stripped to the fewest parts " ironically this quote is from King Gillette, famous for making razors with many, many blades. But here's a related editorial, from before Digit existed:
*Bicycling: Suspension Tech: What the Heck is a Bar and How Many Do You Need?*


----------



## Pipeliner (Oct 30, 2018)

This really is an intriguing concept and frankly, the future of full suspension bikes is less bearings and less weight. I would probably be a buyer for a 29/29 frame with 130 travel.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

If anyone here's in or close to Pennsylvania, and interested in checking out the Digits, I'll be at the Philly Bike Expo this weekend.
I hear it's fun, stop by, say 'hi'.


----------



## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Pipeliner said:


> This really is an intriguing concept and frankly, the future of full suspension bikes is less bearings and less weight. I would probably be a buyer for a 29/29 frame with 130 travel.


This is a move toward that concept.









Living Link


Spot Bikes | mountain bikes, gravel bikes, city bikes, belt drive bikes. Located in Golden, Colorado. Demo our flagship models Mayhem 130, Ryve 115, Ryve 110, Rollik 150, Rocker SS, Acme, & more.




spotbikes.com













Living Link


Spot Bikes | mountain bikes, gravel bikes, city bikes, belt drive bikes. Located in Golden, Colorado. Demo our flagship models Mayhem 130, Ryve 115, Ryve 110, Rollik 150, Rocker SS, Acme, & more.




spotbikes.com





I own one and it's the real deal. Not some gimmick.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Tim-ti said:


> If anyone here's in or close to Pennsylvania, and interested in checking out the Digits, I'll be at the Philly Bike Expo this weekend.
> I hear it's fun, stop by, say 'hi'.


I'm going on Sunday, definitely going to say Hi and check out your bike! 🤘


----------



## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

I look forward to hearing real world reviews from customers. Am also trying to be patient and wait for a 29er version.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

Did someone say they’re interested in a 29er?


__
http://instagr.am/p/CkTMH_dO51b/


----------



## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

Daaaaamn Mang! Order me up a purply one & ship it to UK sometime asap to test yh?

;d


----------



## coachxtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

that is a bicycle i would like to purchase.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Tim-ti said:


> Did someone say they’re interested in a 29er?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CkTMH_dO51b/


Oh hell yes!


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Tim-ti said:


> Did someone say they’re interested in a 29er?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CkTMH_dO51b/


Where is the sign up sheet?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

PHeller said:


> EDIT: one thing I really like is the low leverage rate of the Digit. As a bigger guy, I want more bikes like the Foes stuff, and less like the sky-high leverage ratio bikes with little stroke shocks.


In theory it's good...in practice it's way more headache IME. The problem is every aftermarket piece available is not set up for low leverage, so everything aftermarket will be way over-damped and need fixing just to work right. Add to that low leverage increases air stiction and makes getting the right coil more difficult (graduations need to be more like 15lbs instead of 50lbs and coil tolerance simply isn't that good). I wish this was handled better by the industry, as far as tuning options when buying aftermarket shocks...but it's not, the aftermarket gets F-all attention and tuning compared to OEM.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

As a bigger guy - having more damping is great. 

But yea, sucks for normal people.


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

What's the weight on the Ring vs the Datum frames? I know their protos, but did extending the rear triangle add considerable weight?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

PHeller said:


> What's the weight on the Ring vs the Datum frames? I know their protos, but did extending the rear triangle add considerable weight?


Because it’s still in development, weight is TBD. I also didn’t announce the weight of the Datum until everything was fully baked, because I don’t want to set expectations incorrectly. I don’t use weight as a design goals because ride performance, stiffness, robustness, etc are most important to me. 

That said, I anticipate that a Ring frame will weigh less than a Datum. The bigger weight difference between 29er and 27.5er seems to be in the tires and wheels though, it’ll be interesting to see if there’s enough of a weight saving in the frame to offset that.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

delete, double-post


----------



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Tim, 

It looks like the stanchion threads onto the knuckle. I assume you have the stanchions custom made, so years down the road, having a scratched stanchion or worn stanchion would require that stanchion get re-anodized or re-coated in some fashion? 

As far as the internals of the Integer Strut - is it just a normal a shimstack and piston setup? Does it use off-the-shelf shims?


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

PHeller said:


> Tim,
> 
> It looks like the stanchion threads onto the knuckle. I assume you have the stanchions custom made, so years down the road, having a scratched stanchion or worn stanchion would require that stanchion get re-anodized or re-coated in some fashion?
> 
> As far as the internals of the Integer Strut - is it just a normal a shimstack and piston setup? Does it use off-the-shelf shims?


Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.


----------



## TOGALOCK (8 mo ago)

Tim-ti said:


> Did someone say they’re interested in a 29er?
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CkTMH_dO51b/


Is there somewhere to see this that is not on Instagram, or any other social media, for us non conformist? I don’t have an account, so it won’t open.


----------



## Tim-ti (Jul 27, 2005)

TOGALOCK said:


> Is there somewhere to see this that is not on Instagram, or any other social media, for us non conformist? I don’t have an account, so it won’t open.


Sorry, I tried the insert media code expecting that it would show the pictures, but it looks like I failed to read the instructions.
Here's the info and gallery of photos: digitbikes.com/ring
​


----------



## Tinstigator (Jun 28, 2016)

Decent frame designer can't follow instructions shocker ! 😛

These look scrumptiously mmmmmm


----------

