# Super slack HTs... Real world feedback?



## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm currently on a 120mm HT, and am possibly in the market for a second bike that can handle steeper, chunkier stuff. Being a HT kinda guy, I'm drawn to these new 63* bikes that are hitting the market. The RSD RS-291 is very intriguing, given how much I enjoyed my Middlechild in the past.

I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).

This would be a 2nd bike, my 120mm bike would still be my main. This bike would likely only be used for long fire road climbs up to bomb back down. A small percentage of my riding honestly, but much more fun on a bigger bike.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

IME they’re fun as hell but aren’t awesomely maneuverable. It sounds like your expectations are reasonable – go for it. A pal is smitten with his Moxie after several other HTs and FS, kills the San Gabes on it. Kingdom Vendetta Custom works for me. Sliders for SS of course.


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## fmendes (Jun 25, 2016)

I have one and absolutely love it. Even having a good FS, the slack HT is my go-to bike these days. More predictable and very fun. I usually do stuff with it that I bail with the FS. No large jumps, as I'm very heavy and afraid of breaking the frame.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Having experienced the downhill performance improvements pushing my 120mm ht from 68° to 65.5° I can imagine what stupid fun something like 63°/160mm must be.


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## OneTrustMan (Nov 11, 2017)

I ride a Sonder Transmitter and went from a 150mm fork to a Lyrik 180mm.

At first I wanted to buy a new air shaft, but after a couple of rides I changed my mind.

I don't feel a difference when climbing, but I do when riding down. The head tube angle is probably below 64 now.


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

HA is probably 63.5-64° with a 160mm yari, I ride it on everything from black diamonds to XC routes. It's a blast everywhere and a great complement to my enduro rig










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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm currently on a 120mm HT, and am possibly in the market for a second bike that can handle steeper, chunkier stuff. Being a HT kinda guy, I'm drawn to these new 63* bikes that are hitting the market. The RSD RS-291 is very intriguing, given how much I enjoyed my Middlechild in the past.
> 
> I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).
> 
> This would be a 2nd bike, my 120mm bike would still be my main. This bike would likely only be used for long fire road climbs up to bomb back down. A small percentage of my riding honestly, but much more fun on a bigger bike.


Favorite topic these days. Absolutely love my Chromag Rootdown (64/160). The pure feeling of appropriate frame flex on appropriate wheels when cornering/pumping is very satisfying. So much so that I bought a Honzo ESD frame (63/150), supposed to be even more compliant than the beefy Chromag, and started playing with wheel sizes, crank lengths, tire combos, etc.- so much fun.

Currently Rootdown (415 stays) runs mullet with 2.6 Dissectors while the ESD, which has adjustable chain stay lengths either gets super grippy tires in long/Enduro mode (435mm stays) or gets really fast rolling tires with shorter stays (417-420) for XC mode. What's better than ripping passed the dentist on the Epic Evo on your 63 degree steel bruiser and then hucking the 6ft drop just for good measure.

They are "heavy" HTs (31-33 lbs depending on wheel and tires) but unless you're on an Epic or Spur, that doesn't seem heavy these days, and I honestly never feel sluggish (granted, not doing 3+ hr rides on these grip and rip bikes).

Any maneuverability issues seem mostly related to the chain stay length more so than slack HTAs, though I do like the smaller offset forks with these slack angles. Super steeps STAs make climbing way easier than expected. Won't track like an XC bike but it's not hard at all to get used to leaning rather than turning even on the slow speed stuff.

The Sentinel is collecting dust these days as I honestly find it hard to find trails here in VA/MD/DC these HTs can't do well and with more smiles per mile.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

I also like my pole taival, hardtail. One complaint seems to be rear clearance maxes around 29x2.5, maybe 2.6 tires. But I run 2.3's so doesn't matter to me.


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## Crankyone (Dec 8, 2014)

I split my rides between a 2008 Trek 69er SS and a 2019 Kona Big Honzo. They are like night and day! That is why you need a quiver of bikes.
As John Denver said, A Man Who Loves Only One Kind of Mountain Bike, Drinks only one kind of Wine!


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

Have a 2021 Ragley Big Wig Race 160mm Lyric came stock on it. Love the bike, no issues climbing and just missed a STRAVA DH yesterday by 11 seconds and I wasn't even pushing it. Need to go back and get the KOM on it. Do not miss my FS. Has a 64 degree head angle.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm currently on a 120mm HT, and am possibly in the market for a second bike that can handle steeper, chunkier stuff. Being a HT kinda guy, I'm drawn to these new 63* bikes that are hitting the market. The RSD RS-291 is very intriguing, given how much I enjoyed my Middlechild in the past.
> 
> I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).
> 
> This would be a 2nd bike, my 120mm bike would still be my main. This bike would likely only be used for long fire road climbs up to bomb back down. A small percentage of my riding honestly, but much more fun on a bigger bike.


Hi there!
I'm 179cm on a large Chromag Doctahawk with a 180mm Yari on 27+ Minions since last fall. I progressed over the years, starting with a 2013 Honzo ST (medium) with the stock 120mm RS Revelation, then added a 2016 Honzo TI in large with a 150mm Fox 36 and a 2° angleset and 29x2.6" Minions. The Hawk is a surprisingly good climber, the additional weight compared to the Honzo Ti is barely noticable. I attribute this to the more efficient seat tube angle. So much so that I recently dropped the fork travel on the Honzo Ti to 130mm, which should bring the STA back to the stock figure. but that is still "old school" by now, compared to the Hawk.
I was initially concerned about the longer chainstays on the Hawk (435 static vs. the sliders on the Honzo which I always run at 415), but in combination with the slack head angle and the longer reach (about 500) this has been a non issue so far. Whether high speed or low speed (technical) down hill sections, switchbacks, jumps or drops, everything feels great on the Hawk. I have yet to try 29er wheels, they are already built up but I haven't had the itch to mount them as yet.
One strong recommendation is to use an oval front ring (and flat pedals), which I find really provide for less fatigue over the course of long days in the saddle.
And a second one, which is more obvious: proper rear tires (3C EXO+ for me) and/or inserts are a must.
So if you can get your hands on one of those new school hard tails (ESD, Hawk, Cotic BFEMax) I'd say go for it. The difference to your current rig is significant, so there probably won't be too much overlap (that was the second motivation for my dropping the travel on the Honzo TI).
Hope this helps


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## Thorjensen (Jun 4, 2013)

My do-it-all bike is a 29er HT with 140mm travel and a HA of 63.9. I use it for round the city/forrest tours with my 3 year old on a Feva seat to fast flow and techy ups and downs. I just love that bike on every surface and type of trail. 
Yes you have to compensate a bit for that long WB on super tight switch backs but then again I would also need to compensate for fast gnarly descents on a XC bike. Whatever rocks your boat and then go with the matching bike.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

Slack HT Feedback: Yes.

My Chromag is similar in HTA to your Middlechild, but I wouldn't hesitate to run it with an angleset to a degree slacker at 63.5 or 64. Hasn't held me back on the climbs and it's an absolute riot the rest of the time. The only problem I've found is that it's made me want a new FS bike with similar geometry, so my "buy this bike and be good for a while" turned into me saving up for another bike.

-DS


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

dsciulli19 said:


> Slack HT Feedback: Yes.
> 
> My Chromag is similar in HTA to your Middlechild, but I wouldn't hesitate to run it with an angleset to a degree slacker at 63.5 or 64. Hasn't held me back on the climbs and it's an absolute riot the rest of the time. The only problem I've found is that it's made me want a new FS bike with similar geometry, so my "buy this bike and be good for a while" turned into me saving up for another bike.
> 
> -DS


Same for me. I got the Rootdown in part because I hated feeling so sketchy getting back on a steep HTA hardtail when coming off my 66.5 degree FS. My confidence on the Chromag with a Fox 36 (now a Mezzer) changed my riding so much I switched to a 64 degree FS. Never going back.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Wow! Some sweet rigs here!

I ride a Nimble 9 with a 140 Pike. It's not so slack as most of these, but the HA (along with a dropper) makes even really steep stuff almost comfortable, esp compared to the bikes I used to ride on the same really steep stuff. Cornering is fantastic. There are only a few spots I can think of where I actually get out of control - diagonal root cluster things where I might skip the front tire off something and end up at the edge/off of the trail. It would probably not do that if i didn't run it so stiff, but that's how I like it.
Anything less than 140, IMO, would not be enough (regardless of what frame you have). At that point, I'd probably just go back to rigid. But the N9 will take a 150 at least.
BB height is really good for my riding.
The WB is fine, even on our narrow, twisty trails.
Climbs very well!
And I like short chainstays.
It comes in around 28#(?)

And like someone else said, it's different enough that it will pick up where your other bike leaves off. The thing is, you might start heading for specific trails just to prove to yourself that it was worth it, and you'll forget all about your other bike. 😁

-F


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## gerryl (Aug 10, 2014)

I have a Norco Torrent A2 on order. So, no ride review here but I can't wait to get it. It will supplement my alloy GG Smash. Hope to put a leg over it sometime this fall/winter (?). But given how most anything related to bikes is delayed, it will probably be arrive next calendar year.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I've had my Honzo ESD since March. It replaced my Honzo AL which had the same 140mm Z2 w/ 44mm offset. Also, I had a -2 Works angled headset so that bike was around a 65 degree HA. Really fun bike after those upgrades&#8230;

&#8230;But, the ESD is in a whole different class. The 63 degree HA is definitely noticeable on the steeps; hell, it just rails better on everything. I used to think that a bike that slack couldn't climb, but no, the steep seat tube angle sees to that. I can climb everything that I've ever been able to climb on an XC bike. At this point, it has become my main bike, and I only take my enduro bike on the _batshit crazy_ trails.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Maybe I'm a corner case, but I'm not a huge fan of the slack HTA thing. The slackest I have is my Esker Japhy (about 65 degrees unsagged). Granted, I'm running it rigid singlespeed. The fork is 495 A:C and 49mm offset (bike is designed for 51mm), and weighs in at less than 24 lbs with a 2.6 out back and a 3.25 up front.

The downhill stability on the big chunky/ledgy downhills is great, but I don't think it makes up for the front wheel floppy vagueness when climbing and riding low speed chunk and tech. Also makes it hard to ride skinnies with tight turns 










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## amc_ (Jun 26, 2020)

The slack HTA is definitely not going to be everyone's cup o' tea. However I personally won't go back to a more traditional/steeper bike. After riding my GG Smash I just couldn't get along as well with my old steep DJ hardtail. Built up a 2020 Rootdown last year and absolutely love it. Super fun on gravel trails or rides with my kids, and excels at descending fast gnarly singletrack. Climbs great too. I'd have a hard time picking a favorite between the two bikes at this point, but the Rootdown seems to get at least an equal share of the ride time. It just does everything well.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

Fleas said:


> Wow! Some sweet rigs here!
> 
> I ride a Nimble 9 with a 140 Pike. It's not so slack as most of these, but the HA (along with a dropper) makes even really steep stuff almost comfortable, esp compared to the bikes I used to ride on the same really steep stuff. Cornering is fantastic. There are only a few spots I can think of where I actually get out of control - diagonal root cluster things where I might skip the front tire off something and end up at the edge/off of the trail. It would probably not do that if i didn't run it so stiff, but that's how I like it.
> Anything less than 140, IMO, would not be enough (regardless of what frame you have). At that point, I'd probably just go back to rigid. But the N9 will take a 150 at least.
> ...


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

CCSS said:


> Maybe I'm a corner case, but I'm not a huge fan of the slack HTA thing. The slackest I have is my Esker Japhy (about 65 degrees unsagged). Granted, I'm running it rigid singlespeed. The fork is 495 A:C and 49mm offset (bike is designed for 51mm), and weighs in at less than 24 lbs with a 2.6 out back and a 3.25 up front.
> 
> The downhill stability on the big chunky/ledgy downhills is great, but I don't think it makes up for the front wheel floppy vagueness when climbing and riding low speed chunk and tech. Also makes it hard to ride skinnies with tight turns
> 
> ...


 RNC CRANKS!?!?!? do they work fine with boost spacing? These are the two piece model right? Also what is the fork on this bad boy? This is very similar to what I want to do with my Nimble 9 for exploring the desert, for days I do not need a big travel fork.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Oogie said:


> RNC CRANKS!?!?!? do they work fine with boost spacing? These are the two piece model right? Also what is the fork on this bad boy? This is very similar to what I want to do with my Nimble 9 for exploring the desert, for days I do not need a big travel fork.


Yep - RNC is working on what might be the best MTB cranks ever. These are prototype #2. Stay tuned - proto #3 is landing soon.

The fork is pretty awesome, too. Tandell boost carbon 29er. 169 bucks and only great feedback from everywhere I've ever seen. In fact I just speared into the oddly raised back side of a giant tabletop in Bentonville at 25+ mph. Grade three separation of my right shoulder. Loosened the headset. Fork is fine.

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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

CCSS said:


> Yep - RNC is working on what might be the best MTB cranks ever. These are prototype #2. Stay tuned - proto #3 is landing soon.
> 
> The fork is pretty awesome, too. Tandell boost carbon 29er. 169 bucks and only great feedback from everywhere I've ever seen. In fact I just speared into the oddly raised back side of a giant tabletop in Bentonville at 25+ mph. Grade three separation of my right shoulder. Loosened the headset. Fork is fine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be awesome if RNC can get some mtb cranks made for the cost of their BMX cranks. I'd be on board for a set of 165mm. I need to follow RNC's social media a bit closer. Maybe they put some teasers up there. I wish there were more options for a narrow wide spline drive sprocket in 28,30,32 teeth. If there were more options I'd probably have profile cranks on my trail bike now.

The tandell fork was on my list, but I wanted a bit for axle to crown height so I just ordered a trek 1120 fork. I am liking that it has all the mounts because the nimlbe9 will likely end up having an offroad touring mode for when the terrain will be a bit to much for the gravel bike.

Heal up. Thanks for the info.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

I hate this thread. It makes me realize I might need one of these.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

They're really fun. You totally do need one.

At only a 65° hta, my paradox isn't even all that slack anymore either


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> They're really fun. You totally do need one.
> 
> At only a 65° hta, my paradox isn't even all that slack anymore either


I started the year looking at the On-One Hello Dave but was turned off by the rear clearance and the limited rear disc size. At 62° HT it was slacker than I could imagine but not it seems that a lot of manufacturer's have followed suit to similar slackness. The ESD looks like an amazing bike. My only misgiving is I have no idea how to size myself on one as my current bike for the last many years have been a Jones and it just is a hard translation across to something else and find one to try at a store is next to impossible.

Ultimately i will have to pull the trigger and hope the reach numbers work for me I guess.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I've ridden a few and don't have a desire to acquire lol

None of my 5 bikes (including two SS MTB's) are newer than 2016 or slacked out to any great extent which is fine by me. I'm in my mid-50's and enjoy error free rides on any surface up to and including rocks, roots, dirt of moderate difficulty.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> I started the year looking at the On-One Hello Dave but was turned off by the rear clearance and the limited rear disc size. At 62° HT it was slacker than I could imagine but not it seems that a lot of manufacturer's have followed suit to similar slackness. The ESD looks like an amazing bike. My only misgiving is I have no idea how to size myself on one as my current bike for the last many years have been a Jones and it just is a hard translation across to something else and find one to try at a store is next to impossible.
> 
> Ultimately i will have to pull the trigger and hope the reach numbers work for me I guess.


I go for a shorter reach on a hardtail generally. They only get steeper, so it ends up being more comfortable for me. Yea, I know.. that doesn't help


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

CCSS said:


> Maybe I'm a corner case, but I'm not a huge fan of the slack HTA thing. The slackest I have is my Esker Japhy (about 65 degrees unsagged). Granted, I'm running it rigid singlespeed. The fork is 495 A:C and 49mm offset (bike is designed for 51mm), and weighs in at less than 24 lbs with a 2.6 out back and a 3.25 up front.
> 
> The downhill stability on the big chunky/ledgy downhills is great, but I don't think it makes up for the front wheel floppy vagueness when climbing and riding low speed chunk and tech. Also makes it hard to ride skinnies with tight turns
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How is clearance out back with 2.6? Could 2.8 fit? This looks like how I'd setup a japhy.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

DGUSMC said:


> Favorite topic these days. Absolutely love my Chromag Rootdown (64/160). The pure feeling of appropriate frame flex on appropriate wheels when cornering/pumping is very satisfying. So much so that I bought a Honzo ESD frame (63/150), supposed to be even more compliant than the beefy Chromag, and started playing with wheel sizes, crank lengths, tire combos, etc.- so much fun.
> 
> Currently Rootdown (415 stays) runs mullet with 2.6 Dissectors while the ESD, which has adjustable chain stay lengths either gets super grippy tires in long/Enduro mode (435mm stays) or gets really fast rolling tires with shorter stays (417-420) for XC mode. What's better than ripping passed the dentist on the Epic Evo on your 63 degree steel bruiser and then hucking the 6ft drop just for good measure.
> 
> ...


These things really can do anything...









...on anything...









And they look sweet too...


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> I started the year looking at the On-One Hello Dave but was turned off by the rear clearance and the limited rear disc size. At 62° HT it was slacker than I could imagine but not it seems that a lot of manufacturer's have followed suit to similar slackness. The ESD looks like an amazing bike. My only misgiving is I have no idea how to size myself on one as my current bike for the last many years have been a Jones and it just is a hard translation across to something else and find one to try at a store is next to impossible.
> 
> Ultimately i will have to pull the trigger and hope the reach numbers work for me I guess.


How tall are you?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> How tall are you?


5'10"


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> 5'10"


 I am 5'10" as well, and ride a large ESD. I might have enjoyed a medium better, but I'm used to the large and can ride pretty much anything on it. If your 5'10" is more legs and less torso, I'd definitely go medium. I'm about 50/50 leg/torso.

Biggest thing I notice is that with the long 490mm reach I have to put a lot of English into pulling it into a manual, which I do a lot on trails. When I go back to my enduro bike I end up almost pulling it over backwards until I get used to it again.?


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

I’m 6-1 with longer than average arms. My large ESD seems spot on for me.


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## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

My first ride on the new Knolly Tyaughton out on the trail last night. She's slack but no so sure she qualifies as "super slack". Also here's a link to my bike check:








Jeff Sharp on Instagram: "Just got my Knolly hardtail after nearly a year wait, and here’s my bike check! #knollytyaughton #knollyknation @knollybikes #knollybikes #hardtailmtb #steelisreal #newbikeday @knollybikes @mrpbike @bikesmithcycleryaz"


Jeff Sharp shared a post on Instagram: "Just got my Knolly hardtail after nearly a year wait, and here’s my bike check! #knollytyaughton #knollyknation @knollybikes #knollybikes #hardtailmtb #steelisreal #newbikeday @knollybikes @mrpbike @bikesmithcycleryaz". Follow their account to see 792 posts.




www.instagram.com


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Funoutside said:


> How is clearance out back with 2.6? Could 2.8 fit? This looks like how I'd setup a japhy.


Rear clearance is one of my disappointments with the Japhy. I asked before I pulled the trigger and they said it would "fit a 2.8 slammed." Not even close. The 2.8 Rekon I bought for the build is hanging on the wall, and the 2.6 Rekon that's on there now is about halfway back in the dropouts and only has a few mm clearance in the chainstays. It can't be slammed either.

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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

CCSS said:


> Rear clearance is one of my disappointments with the Japhy. I asked before I pulled the trigger and they said it would "fit a 2.8 slammed." Not even close. The 2.8 Rekon I bought for the build is hanging on the wall, and the 2.6 Rekon that's on there now is about halfway back in the dropouts and only has a few mm clearance in the chainstays. It can't be slammed either.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would have taken that to mean slammed all the way back. A 2.8 with clearance all the way forward would be a plus bike. Edit: I see they do tout "up to" 2.8 clearance. I can't imagine they're talking about the shortest dropout setting.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

She&I said:


> I would have taken that to mean slammed all the way back. A 2.8 with clearance all the way forward would be a plus bike. Edit: I see they do tout "up to" 2.8 clearance. I can't imagine they're talking about the shortest dropout setting.


I hear you, but I just went back and looked at the email I sent them and my exact question was: "will it run 2.8 with the wheel slammed forward?"
Their answer was: "Yes, it fits a 2.8" tire in the rear with the sliding dropouts all the way forward."

Hence my disappointment.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm currently on a Japhy running an Agarro 2.6 in the rear, and there's no way I'm slamming the rear even with that.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Just to be clear with it all the way back it can fit 2.8 no issues or is it just certain 2.8s?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Funoutside said:


> Just to be clear with it all the way back it can fit 2.8 no issues or is it just certain 2.8s?


There's quite a bit of clearance with the dropouts all of the way back. The 2.8 McFly the completes are specced with are pretty chunky, I imagine most if not all 2.8s will fit.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> They're really fun. You totally do need one.
> 
> At only a 65° hta, my paradox isn't even all that slack anymore either


My Marley has a 65 degree HTA which isn't all that slack by today's standards, but it sure is a heap of fun for what I use it for. It sees more general trail use while the Megatrail gets out for the really rowdy terrain.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

You guys definitely sold me. I'm not sure where I go from here though. I was going to pre-order an RSD RS-291, but I just can't get over the junk wheelset it comes with. I thought about ordering a frame, but building a wheelset looks to be impossible with the availability of hubs. 

I think I'll just hold out until this winter and see what becomes available.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've built two wheel sets this year. Hubs are available, sometimes you have to wait a bit. I had to change my spoke plans on the second set.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> You guys definitely sold me. I'm not sure where I go from here though. I was going to pre-order an RSD RS-291, but I just can't get over the junk wheelset it comes with. I thought about ordering a frame, but building a wheel set looks to be impossible with the availability of hubs.
> 
> I think I'll just hold out until this winter and see what becomes available.


Was in the same boat. Wanted another set of i9 305s for the ESD but good luck with those. Found a bunch of Trail 270s with 1-1 hubs from online retailers and decided on the skinnier rims on the cheaper hubs as the lighter day/faster rolling wheelset and I'd just swap them back and forth. Love the different character of the bikes with the very different wheel and tire sets.

As it turns out, the 270s work great with 2.4s (My guess is 2.5s would too) and I think what it tells me is that most of my riding doesn't need the bigger "enduro" set up or plus tires.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> You guys definitely sold me. I'm not sure where I go from here though. I was going to pre-order an RSD RS-291, but I just can't get over the junk wheelset it comes with. I thought about ordering a frame, but building a wheelset looks to be impossible with the availability of hubs.
> 
> I think I'll just hold out until this winter and see what becomes available.


I have a set of sun ringle Duroc 35s laced to BST super 6 hubs on my Chromag from the previous owner and I have been pleasantly surprised.

The hoops are a bit soft but any time I've had to straighten the beads it's been my fault for trying to get away with too low a pressure. And I don't have a single gripe about the hubs. 10 degree engagement and they are smooth rolling.

Wouldn't be my choice of wheelset but if the set that comes on the 291 is the same you could run them until you get set up with a proper pair of wheels.

-DS


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## Matt93eg (Jul 22, 2021)

I have fallen in love with my Marin San Quentin 3. 65 degree HTA and 75 degree STA so it still climbs really well. I mainly use it for XC riding and one of the main trails I ride has alot of steep climbs and she does fine. Before this bike I had only ridden bikes with 70degree HTA, I won't be going back.


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## offrhodes42 (May 1, 2009)

For those on here with Honzo ESD or similar bikes what are your thoughts on a fork with 51 offset? I know the bike is designed around shorter offset forks, but would a 51 offset be a bad choice?


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

offrhodes42 said:


> For those on here with Honzo ESD or similar bikes what are your thoughts on a fork with 51 offset? I know the bike is designed around shorter offset forks, but would a 51 offset be a bad choice?


I have a Fox 36 51 on the ESD and it's perfectly fine. Fun bike. That said, I do prefer the shorter offset on the Mezzer that's on my Rootdown - feels slightly more precise.


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## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

offrhodes42 said:


> For those on here with Honzo ESD or similar bikes what are your thoughts on a fork with 51 offset? I know the bike is designed around shorter offset forks, but would a 51 offset be a bad choice?


Hey, I have a Doctahawk with a 180mm Yari which has 51mm offset. Before buying the fork, I got in touch with the good folks at Chromag for advice regarding the offset, and they told me that the 51mm would be actually beneficial, given the very slack head angle (62.5). So that's what I did. I'm very happy with the bike, it's great up and down, fast and slow (also for switchbacks where you need to lift the rear wheel and slam it around the turn). I do not have a comparison with a shorter offset fork though.


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

offrhodes42 said:


> For those on here with Honzo ESD or similar bikes what are your thoughts on a fork with 51 offset? I know the bike is designed around shorter offset forks, but would a 51 offset be a bad choice?


FWIW my first ride on a slack bike was like what I imagine a crackhead's first time hitting the rock was like. I had found god.

As far as offset goes. I deferred to an expert and went with 41mm


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

My whole thing is this: I started riding actual trails here in NWA a little over a year ago. At the time I had a Trek 4300 26er with V-Brakes and I rode the Back 40 nevertheless. That lasted about 6 months and I had to get a 29er. Of course, money was tight, bikes were short, nothing on the used market, so I ended up with Fuji Nevada in XL. 69* HTA, 73* STA, 459 reach, 450mm chainstays, dreaded 520mm seat tube (had to cut a cm off to fit a 150 dropper slammed)...The bike is probably 35lbs with pedals, tubeless. I'm 6'0" with 32" inseam, longer torso/arms than legs...I think.

I'm super intrigued by the slack bikes, but I wonder if it's mostly in theory? Am I going to hate a 64* HTA and 480 reach? I'm sure will "hate" it at first, maybe...? I think I've identified that I'm currently riding further back on the bike in descents, so I'll need to adopt a new riding style.

But how far should I go? I don't want to feel like I have to buy another bike in a year. My wife says 2 years 😆 66*? or go all the way to 63-64? I've considered something like the Japhy and potentially overforking it 10mm later...granted I'll lose 5-6mm of reach.

I don't ride true "DH" around here. It's technically XC but most of it is handcut, rocky, rooty, loose, super technical. Anyone who's been to Bella Vista (and Bentonville) knows. Haven't really learned to jump yet, so I'm not at the bike park every week. I also don't race. Not that I'm against competition, I think it can be fun, but I have no podium aspirations. Really I want to have as much fun as I can on the trails near me, with occasional trips to bike parks and other areas of the country possible, but not something I've done yet...so probably not many of those happening in the next 2 years.

What say ye?!?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

NWA_Tre said:


> My whole thing is this: I started riding actual trails here in NWA a little over a year ago. At the time I had a Trek 4300 26er with V-Brakes and I rode the Back 40 nevertheless. That lasted about 6 months and I had to get a 29er. Of course, money was tight, bikes were short, nothing on the used market, so I ended up with Fuji Nevada in XL. 69* HTA, 73* STA, 459 reach, 450mm chainstays, dreaded 520mm seat tube (had to cut a cm off to fit a 150 dropper slammed)...The bike is probably 35lbs with pedals, tubeless. I'm 6'0" with 32" inseam, longer torso/arms than legs...I think.
> 
> I'm super intrigued by the slack bikes, but I wonder if it's mostly in theory? Am I going to hate a 64* HTA and 480 reach? I'm sure will "hate" it at first, maybe...? I think I've identified that I'm currently riding further back on the bike in descents, so I'll need to adopt a new riding style.
> 
> ...


If I didn’t ride extremely steep DH, I maybe wouldn’t prefer my head angle quite as slack, but honestly there are no downsides to it when I do ride XC on my Honzo ESD. My regular Honzo had a 67 degree HA before I put a -2* angled headset on it and it absolutely did not climb any better than my ESD with a 63*HA. One thing I can say for certain though, is that I vastly prefer the Honzo ESD on any sort of descent, and the steeper it is, the more noticeable the difference. There just aren’t any downsides to a slack head angle these days, because the seattube angles and extra reach account for it and provide a nice, upright pedaling platform.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

cookieMonster said:


> If I didn’t ride extremely steep DH, I maybe wouldn’t prefer my head angle quite as slack, but honestly there are no downsides to it when I do ride XC on my Honzo ESD. My regular Honzo had a 67 degree HA before I put a -2* angled headset on it and it absolutely did not climb any better than my ESD with a 63*HA. One thing I can say for certain though, is that I vastly prefer the Honzo ESD on any sort of descent, and the steeper it is, the more noticeable the difference. There just aren’t any downsides to a slack head angle these days, because the seattube angles and extra reach account for it and provide a nice, upright pedaling platform.


Unless you’re riding it rigid SS - then there are downsides.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

CCSS said:


> Unless you’re riding it rigid SS - then there are downsides.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you know that rigid singlespeeders and vegans have a lot in common?

For example, you never have to wonder which people in a given room are rigid singlespeeders or vegans — they’ll be sure to tell you.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I'm an outlier here but I can't stand chopper bikes and long wheelbases. They just don't work for the trails I ride (not flow or jump lines). 15+ years ago I was having custom frames built for super d and enduro racing because there was no long low and slack frames at the time. I may have to go back to doing that because not even an Angleset can bandaid fix today's HTAs. 66.5 is my magic # BTW.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

cookieMonster said:


> Did you know that rigid singlespeeders and vegans have a lot in common?
> 
> For example, you never have to wonder which people in a given room are rigid singlespeeders or vegans — they’ll be sure to tell you.


Hmmm, seems like you made made sure to tell everyone that there aren't any downsides to slack head angels these days because you can sit and spin w/ a long reach and a steep STA. 



cookieMonster said:


> There just aren’t any downsides to a slack head angle these days, because the seattube angles and extra reach account for it and provide a nice, upright pedaling platform.


Doesn't work w/ SS. And if you'd made the blanket statement that there just aren't any downsides to eating meat because blah blah blah, and I was a vegan, I guess I'd have mentioned it, too.

But, for the record, I don't do crossfit


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

CCSS said:


> Hmmm, seems like you made made sure to tell everyone that there aren't any downsides to slack head angels these days because you can sit and spin w/ a long reach and a steep STA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why doesn’t it work with a SS? I don’t ride a SS, nor do I have any interest in riding one, but I stand and climb in one gear quite often (2-3 gears higher than I would pedal the same section seated). My slack hardtail handles it just fine. 🤔


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

My 160mm forked NukeProof Scout has performed flawlessly in the varied rocky terrain of Penitente Canyon CO (tech and not so tech descents AND climbs) and the local not that buffed out in places Blue/Intermediate flow trails.

You couldn’t make me ride any mtb on any terrain that didn’t have a HTA of <= 64.5 deg

I’ve found NukeProof’s size charts to be dead on if you have any confusion as to sizing a progressive HT but don’t want to go full Taival



https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-h4smy34w/product_images/uploaded_images/nukeproof-size-chart-complete-10.jpg



And fwiw I got the feeling that MTB was doing what snowboarding had done and realized that the got it right the first time (K2 Cool Bean etc are copies of the first resort boards) based off of how much riding my slack HT on flat ground reminded me of my beach cruiser aka the OG mtb. So I did some research and the geometry is the same.

Slack is crack.

Time is a flat circle


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks to the goddamned internet my bike doesn't work now. 😁


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Another outlier here.

I posted this elsewhere:

A guy I know at my LBS, who is a relatively hard charging, very seasoned rider, was building a brand new Honzo ST the other day when I was by. I asked him whose bike it was and he said his. I asked him about his ESD and he said he had stripped it and put the frame up for sale.

According to him, the ESD is a decent climber, and (not unexpectedly) great on the downs. But on the flats it was a handful.

My Honzo ST is awesome except when I hit the super gnar with it. I find the seat tube too high. Even with my dropper buried, I feel like I am towering above it. I do love it though.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Another outlier here.
> 
> I posted this elsewhere:
> 
> ...


My seat tube is also massive. 520!


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

NWA_Tre said:


> My whole thing is this: I started riding actual trails here in NWA a little over a year ago. At the time I had a Trek 4300 26er with V-Brakes and I rode the Back 40 nevertheless. That lasted about 6 months and I had to get a 29er. Of course, money was tight, bikes were short, nothing on the used market, so I ended up with Fuji Nevada in XL. 69* HTA, 73* STA, 459 reach, 450mm chainstays, dreaded 520mm seat tube (had to cut a cm off to fit a 150 dropper slammed)...The bike is probably 35lbs with pedals, tubeless. I'm 6'0" with 32" inseam, longer torso/arms than legs...I think.
> 
> I'm super intrigued by the slack bikes, but I wonder if it's mostly in theory? Am I going to hate a 64* HTA and 480 reach? I'm sure will "hate" it at first, maybe...? I think I've identified that I'm currently riding further back on the bike in descents, so I'll need to adopt a new riding style.
> 
> ...


I took my Pedalhead (65° HTA) to Bentonville before I sold it and it did really well. I don't really see an advantage of going slacker than 65ish if you're not riding anything much steeper than what's at Coler or SP. The disadvantage is a longer wheelbase and more wheel flop. The longer wheelbase simply turns less quickly and is less playful. Last time I went to Bentonville I took my Tallboy and Megatower. I preferred the Tallboy and Pedalhead at Slaughter Pen because they're just more lively than the longer enduro bike. Honestly some of the stuff on SP would be even more fun on a dirt jumper. Obviously some of the NWA trails are rowdier than SP which is why I think 65-66° is a good do everything HTA around NWA.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> I took my Pedalhead (65° HTA) to Bentonville before I sold it and it did really well. I don't really see an advantage of going slacker than 65ish if you're not riding anything much steeper than what's at Coler or SP. The disadvantage is a longer wheelbase and more wheel flop. The longer wheelbase simply turns less quickly and is less playful. Last time I went to Bentonville I took my Tallboy and Megatower. I preferred the Tallboy and Pedalhead at Slaughter Pen because they're just more lively than the longer enduro bike. Honestly some of the stuff on SP would be even more fun on a dirt jumper. Obviously some of the NWA trails are rowdier than SP which is why I think 65-66° is a good do everything HTA around NWA.


Phase 2 and most of "upper" Slaughter Pen is similar to Bella Vista in that it's got some elevation gain, is rocky, technical, loose, etc. Tatamagouche, Medusa, Ozone, Razorback, etc. I'm thinking the 64-66 range is best, but I still think I'll be adjusting to the new geo for a while based on what I'm coming from.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

NWA_Tre said:


> Phase 2 and most of "upper" Slaughter Pen is similar to Bella Vista in that it's got some elevation gain, is rocky, technical, loose, etc. Tatamagouche, Medusa, Ozone, Razorback, etc.


Yeah but those are still pretty mellow trails that aren't very high speed. Personally I think a 63-64° HTA would be a detriment at Slaughter Pen.


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## offrhodes42 (May 1, 2009)

I am lucky I guess, as I do not need to settle on one bike. I have a 2011SIR 9 Single speed, a Timberjack 27.5+ geared, and now am building a Honzo ESD. Horses for courses, the ESD will be for Highland, and other lift assisted places, and places like Green Woodlands where there is climbing to steep descending. I see the Timberjack remaining the main ride for XC and trail riding throughout New England. Though the ESD may take trips to Stowe, VT for some comparison with the Timberjack.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> Yeah but those are still pretty mellow trails that aren't very high speed. Personally I think a 63-64° HTA would be a detriment at Slaughter Pen.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We don't really have any DH parks around here, a few jump lines and stuff, but nothing extended fast down. Realistically local trails is what I'll ride 99% of the time, maybe 90% of the time if I do start traveling a tiny bit. I'm trying to be rational about what I need


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

NWA_Tre said:


> Phase 2 and most of "upper" Slaughter Pen is similar to Bella Vista in that it's got some elevation gain, is rocky, technical, loose, etc. Tatamagouche, Medusa, Ozone, Razorback, etc. I'm thinking the 64-66 range is best, but I still think I'll be adjusting to the new geo for a while based on what I'm coming from.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

Pepe Sylvia said:


>


definitely have watched that. I've been telling myself I'll likely hate my next bike at first, lol, until I learn how to ride it properly.


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## Pepe Sylvia (Sep 17, 2021)

NWA_Tre said:


> definitely have watched that. I've been telling myself I'll likely hate my next bike at first, lol, until I learn how to ride it properly.


It convinced me that I was in fact missing out on what I was looking for and was the final push I needed to go to the dark side. 

The fact that you’ve already watched the video and are planning on getting one soon makes me think you’re goin to get hooked fast.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ OK, that's pretty good.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

Pepe Sylvia said:


> It convinced me that I was in fact missing out on what I was looking for and was the final push I needed to go to the dark side.
> 
> The fact that you’ve already watched the video and are planning on getting one soon makes me think you’re goin to get hooked fast.
> View attachment 1950749


Actually watched that video again today from your link lol. And I’ve seen HTP’s videos on each Honzo, the Japhy, etc about three times each.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).












I've had 2 slack HTs recently [Cotic BFeMAX and an over-forked Pipedream Sirius] they both rode really well even in less extreme terrain. I assumed I'd be driving the Cotic to the trails, but I just hopped on and it was no big deal to grind out 20-40kms of pavement/gravel to get to/from singletrack. So I wouldn't let the slack HTA put you off or make you think these bikes have to be a one trick pony. That said there is a lot more to the equation than HTA so pay attention to the rest of the design and how that effects the full picture of how the bike rides.

My current bike is the Pipedream below and while it rides great over-forked I wouldn't hesitate to run it as designed with a shorter fork. I'm sure it would continue to be super fun. The Cotic was a longer bike in front and behind the BB. Although it was on paper the more aggressive design/build in reality I can push the Pipedream as hard and probably harder despite it being a smaller less aggressive bike. This all comes down to feeling more in control of the smaller bike hence being comfortable riding it at its limit. A different rider could well go the other way and prefer the longer bike and love the Cotic more.

Obviously that's a tough nut to crack sitting in front of a computer when there is zero chance of demoing any/most of these rare hardtails. All you can do is use the info you have based on current/past bikes you've ridden and decide what is likely to make you happy. By intentionally pushing my limits in terms of geo and trying the Cotic I have come to appreciate there is a point where a more aggressive bike doesn't result in a more capable bike...for me.

I knew I'd be able to move the parts to a new frame so worst case I was out a few $$ reselling the old frame. That seemed reasonable as a long-term demo cost.










Yup I like fenders, frame bags and high bars! 🤘


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

vikb said:


> The Cotic was a longer bike in front and behind the BB. Although it was on paper the more aggressive design/build in reality I can push the Pipedream as hard and probably harder despite it being a smaller less aggressive bike. This all comes down to feeling more in control of the smaller bike hence being comfortable riding it at its limit. A different rider could well go the other way and prefer the longer bike and love the Cotic more.


How much longer was the Cotic? Care to differentiate them geo-wise?


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

mtnbkrmike said:


> According to him, the ESD is a decent climber, and (not unexpectedly) great on the downs. But on the flats it was a handful.


I wonder in what way? I'm trying to figure out how a bike is a handful on the flats but climbs well and descends great...


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

My guess is that the comment was at least partly to do with the seat post/position and super slack HTA. Sitting and pedaling on flat ground is absolutely not what the ESD was designed to do, and at i think 78degrees, you do feel a little like they are trying to put your nuts on the stem. You get used to it, sort of, but if you’re pedaling for days without seeing an up or down, you’re at least on the wrong trail if not the wrong bike. 

As for steering flop - I don’t experience it on the ESD. You do need to learn to push/counter steer more even at slow speeds vs simply turning the bar but this is normal cornering techniques just at slower speeds. The bike is long so super tight radius turns are a challenge as they would be with any long bike.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

DGUSMC said:


> My guess is that the comment was at least partly to do with the seat post/position and super slack HTA. Sitting and pedaling on flat ground is absolutely not what the ESD was designed to do, and at i think 78degrees, you do feel a little like they are trying to put your nuts on the stem. You get used to it, sort of, but if you’re pedaling for days without seeing an up or down, you’re at least on the wrong trail if not the wrong bike.
> 
> As for steering flop - I don’t experience it on the ESD. You do need to learn to push/counter steer more even at slow speeds vs simply turning the bar but this is normal cornering techniques just at slower speeds. The bike is long so super tight radius turns are a challenge as they would be with any long bike.


I just care about getting to/from the trail. Greenway/road riding is unavoidable in some cases. I'm not going to bike pack an ESD, though.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

NWA_Tre said:


> How much longer was the Cotic? Care to differentiate them geo-wise?












I don't have firm numbers, but the WB on the Cotic was at least 50mm longer with that coming from both a longer rear centre and a longer front centre. They are both very slack bikes in the 62-63 deg HTA range unsagged. Note Pipedream are a little vague on their geo chart specs, but I assume it's a 120mm fork at 25% sag. I had a Large BFeMAX with a 160mm fork and now have a Long Sirius with a 140mm fork.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I have done 30 mile rides on my ESD. Some of it was flattish; flatter than I normally ride anyway. No issues with the steep STA. I should think it wouldn’t be an issue at all for anyone who rides 2-8 miles to their trailheads (I do that as well — all the time).


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

NWA_Tre said:


> I wonder in what way? I'm trying to figure out how a bike is a handful on the flats but climbs well and descends great...


My "guess" would be that the geometry lends itself to really aggressive riding styles, where you might have to put more effort into the bike to get more out of it, similar to what is explained in the HTP vid regarding cornering. The slacker the HTA, the more likely the wheel is to flop side to side, it's just physics. 

I think that most agree a super slack hta is ideal for "some" descending, and a steeper sta is ideal for "some" climbing. But not all descending is the same, just like how not all climbing is the same. Locally we do have some climbing and descending, but very little tech. Lots of time spent in the saddle spinning circles. Personally I would love a steeper sta for seated climbing, as I am OTR (on the rivet, aka nose of the saddle) for short punchy climbs most of the time, if I am not out of the saddle.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

I could see a forward seat position getting annoying on flat roads after several miles, just because you’re knee may be pushed a little far forward than is ideal biochemically, but it’s something you probably only notice if you’re riding quite a ways. To which I’d just slide back a little and sit more in the back of the saddle.

Then when you start climbing that same forward position keeps the front wheel planted, and you end up shifting around a lot in the saddle as you climb with the terrain changing up, flat, down, so you don’t really notice the forward seat position being an issue. And the benefits for climbing far outweigh the negatives IMHO.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

I just swapped parts from my Pole Taival over to Kona Honzo ESD. One feature with the long and low Kona is you need a long seatpost with this bike (at least I do, XL frame 6'4" person). Not that anyone is planning to use a rigid post, but I have a 410 mm long Thomson and it is actually just slightly too short, so waiting on the 200 mm dropper to arrive. The rear tire clearance on the Kona also looks slightly bigger, and they have adjustable dropouts to increase chainstay length that I haven't played with, but you can slide the rear axle back and get a little more clearance. The Taival looks very comfortable with a 2.3 or 2.4 rear tire, but the Kona looks like you could get a 2.5 or 2.6 back there if you wanted to (but not officially tested by me).


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

justin70 said:


> I just swapped parts from my Pole Taival over to Kona Honzo ESD. One feature with the long and low Kona is you need a long seatpost with this bike (at least I do, XL frame 6'4" person). Not that anyone is planning to use a rigid post, but I have a 410 mm long Thomson and it is actually just slightly too short, so waiting on the 200 mm dropper to arrive. The rear tire clearance on the Kona also looks slightly bigger, and they have adjustable dropouts to increase chainstay length that I haven't played with, but you can slide the rear axle back and get a little more clearance. The Taival looks very comfortable with a 2.3 or 2.4 rear tire, but the Kona looks like you could get a 2.5 or 2.6 back there if you wanted to (but not officially tested by me).


What made you want to go from the taival to the ESD? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

justin70 said:


> I just swapped parts from my Pole Taival over to Kona Honzo ESD. One feature with the long and low Kona is you need a long seatpost with this bike (at least I do, XL frame 6'4" person). Not that anyone is planning to use a rigid post, but I have a 410 mm long Thomson and it is actually just slightly too short, so waiting on the 200 mm dropper to arrive. The rear tire clearance on the Kona also looks slightly bigger, and they have adjustable dropouts to increase chainstay length that I haven't played with, but you can slide the rear axle back and get a little more clearance. The Taival looks very comfortable with a 2.3 or 2.4 rear tire, but the Kona looks like you could get a 2.5 or 2.6 back there if you wanted to (but not officially tested by me).


Running 2.6 Dissector on my ESD with the drop outs almost all the way fwd - no clearance problems.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

justin70 said:


> I just swapped parts from my Pole Taival over to Kona Honzo ESD. One feature with the long and low Kona is you need a long seatpost with this bike (at least I do, XL frame 6'4" person). Not that anyone is planning to use a rigid post, but I have a 410 mm long Thomson and it is actually just slightly too short, so waiting on the 200 mm dropper to arrive. The rear tire clearance on the Kona also looks slightly bigger, and they have adjustable dropouts to increase chainstay length that I haven't played with, but you can slide the rear axle back and get a little more clearance. The Taival looks very comfortable with a 2.3 or 2.4 rear tire, but the Kona looks like you could get a 2.5 or 2.6 back there if you wanted to (but not officially tested by me).


I’m currently running a 2.6 Rekon on the back of my ESD and it had room to spare with the dropouts all the way forward. I backed them out slightly because it’s mud season now — but wouldn’t have had to. I suspect you could run a 2.8 with the dropouts back a ways but 2.6 is all I need.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

socalrider77 said:


> What made you want to go from the taival to the ESD?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My kid knocked it over it hit a sharp edge putting a decent dent into the top tube, just enough I didn’t feel comfortable riding it aggressively anymore. And aggressive riding is kind of the point of these bikes. And the ESD frame was about the same price as replacement Taival.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

justin70 said:


> My kid knocked it over it hit a sharp edge putting a decent dent into the top tube, just enough I didn’t feel comfortable riding it aggressively anymore. And aggressive riding is kind of the point of these bikes. And the ESD frame was about the same price as replacement Taival.


I have said a prayer for your kid.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I have said a prayer for your kid.


But if there's any jockeys or other lightweight individuals who want a well loved and only gently dented Taival XL frame hit me up!


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## socalrider77 (Sep 1, 2012)

justin70 said:


> But if there's any jockeys or other lightweight individuals who want a well loved and only gently dented Taival XL frame hit me up!


Curious to see how you like the esd compared to the taival. Looks like the chainstays are much shorter and a lower stack height. Keep us updated! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> I’m currently running a 2.6 Rekon on the back of my ESD and it had room to spare with the dropouts all the way forward. I backed them out slightly because it’s mud season now — but wouldn’t have had to. I suspect you could run a 2.8 with the dropouts back a ways but 2.6 is all I need.


Do you like the Recon on the Honzo? I have a 2.3 Minion SS on the skinnier/lighter wheelset and the Dissector on the 30.5 IW. I love the Dissector but wanted something even lighter/faster that corners well.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

DGUSMC said:


> Do you like the Recon on the Honzo? I have a 2.3 Minion SS on the skinnier/lighter wheelset and the Dissector on the 30.5 IW. I love the Dissector but wanted something even lighter/faster that corners well.


The Rekon works fine on the back as a fast rolling tire with reasonable traction. I haven’t had it on there for more than a few rides. I had it on the front for a while and I will never run it there again — not aggressive enough.

I did a DH trail last weekend and sort of liked how the Rekon would break loose a little on the rear and help square up corners without needing to break it loose with the rear brake.

To be honest, I don’t fuss much over rear tires. I don’t feel like I need all that much traction back there. I tend to use either Maxxgrip DHR IIs, Shortys, or Soft Magic Marys up front and typically go through 2-3 front tires before replacing a rear. I think I must have a different riding style compared to a lot of folks.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

cookieMonster said:


> The Rekon works fine on the back as a fast rolling tire with reasonable traction. I haven’t had it on there for more than a few rides. I had it on the front for a while and I will never run it there again — not aggressive enough.
> 
> I did a DH trail last weekend and sort of liked how the Rekon would break loose a little on the rear and help square up corners without needing to break it loose with the rear brake.
> 
> To be honest, I don’t fuss much over rear tires. I don’t feel like I need all that much traction back there. I tend to use either Maxxgrip DHR IIs, Shortys, or Soft Magic Marys up front and typically go through 2-3 front tires before replacing a rear. I think I must have a different riding style compared to a lot of folks.



Cookie you were the one that the bike shop recommended a DHRII 2.4 on the front, right? How did that go? Any crashes? I'm going to switch that from back to front sometime next year.

You wear out front faster than back? Are you doing 13% downhill grades? I mean...you use your rear brake downhill, right? It doesn't ever skid / lock up the tire?

For the Rekon, the 2.4 is great on more gentle trails but it gets really beat up on chunkier ones that have a lot of embedded rocks. I've burped it 2-3 times and wore out the first one in back after about 1000 miles. Not completely, but to the point the sealant was leaking at about 30 different places. So while I like it, something like a 2.4 Dissector or Nevegal II seems like a better long-term trail choice for a hardtail that's doing mixed terrain trails that have some flat pedaling and some chunky sections. However, I'm also going to switch a 2nd Rekon which is a 2.6 to the back later as well (I have three 27.5 wheelsets because I'm completely manic about tire experimentation). I think...well I hope that the 2.6 will provide just enough volume and cushion to make it through the chunk OK, unlike the 2.4.

Maybe it's just Southern California, but the more I ride, the more I care about the rear tire and not the front. Someone on another site mentioned that full-suspension is the most popular in this area of the USA, not sure how true that is, but I've had group rides of 30 people where I'm the only one with a hardtail. Have to ride tires here that can handle a lot of different terrain. Not that the Rekon is a true XC tire, but no more 2.4 or less XC tires for me, they can't handle it here.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> Cookie you were the one that the bike shop recommended a DHRII 2.4 on the front, right? How did that go? Any crashes? I'm going to switch that from back to front sometime next year.
> 
> You wear out front faster than back? Are you doing 13% downhill grades? I mean...you use your rear brake downhill, right? It doesn't ever skid / lock up the tire?


Yep, I ride a lot of 13% grade descents. But usually considerably steeper than that…🤘😉

I really weight the front end when descending, and use a lot of front brake to control speed. I must put plenty of weight on the back too though because I rarely lock the back up. I feel like I use the same pressure on the rear brake too — I’m not consciously going light on that lever. Zees with 203mm rotors front and back on my hardtail, Saints on the full suspension bike, also 203s front and rear. We have really amazing traction though, when it’s moist.

I’m running a 2.6 DHR II on the front of my ESD, and a 2.6 Rekon on the back. Our rowdiest trails are snowed-in now, so I can get away with the Rekon in the back. I ran a 2.5 DHF in the back all summer, which offered better braking grip and obviously a tougher casing as well.

I’ve run DHFs up front since they’ve been made, but now that I’ve tried a DHR II up front I prefer it. It has better braking grip and corners the same. I feel like it clears mud a little better than the DHF too— though neither of them really excell at that.

The thing to watch out for though is that the 2.6 versions of the Minions, at the MaxTerra compound seem to be a little harder rubber than a MaxTerra in the 2.5 or smaller variants. I’ve no real reason to run 2.6s, so my next tires will be 2.5s.


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## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

justin70 said:


> But if there's any jockeys or other lightweight individuals who want a well loved and only gently dented Taival XL frame hit me up!


I am interested in pictures and a price.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm currently on a 120mm HT, and am possibly in the market for a second bike that can handle steeper, chunkier stuff. Being a HT kinda guy, I'm drawn to these new 63* bikes that are hitting the market. The RSD RS-291 is very intriguing, given how much I enjoyed my Middlechild in the past.
> 
> I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).
> 
> This would be a 2nd bike, my 120mm bike would still be my main. This bike would likely only be used for long fire road climbs up to bomb back down. A small percentage of my riding honestly, but much more fun on a bigger bike.












You mean like this? ;-P. stupid fun, climbs well for 27 pounds in SS form. Goes down like a dream.


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## offrhodes42 (May 1, 2009)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I'm currently on a 120mm HT, and am possibly in the market for a second bike that can handle steeper, chunkier stuff. Being a HT kinda guy, I'm drawn to these new 63* bikes that are hitting the market. The RSD RS-291 is very intriguing, given how much I enjoyed my Middlechild in the past.
> 
> I don't trust online reviews anymore, and was hoping to get some real world feedback from you peoples on here that are currently on bikes along this same vein (the Honzo ESD and such).
> 
> This would be a 2nd bike, my 120mm bike would still be my main. This bike would likely only be used for long fire road climbs up to bomb back down. A small percentage of my riding honestly, but much more fun on a bigger bike.


My main ride is similar to yours, a Timberjack with 27.5+ tires. I finished building up a Honzo ESD and have two ride on it so far. I too thought the ESD would be a special occasion bike and the Timberjack would be my main XC/trail companion. While I only have 2 rides on the ESD so far, I may be changing that thought process. I am in NH and the 2 rides have been on relatively flat rides, on packed snow singletrack and snowmobile trails. The trails are slow, twisty, and no highspeed steeps, but holy poop this ESD is fun. Yes, it is heavy. Yes, it is a long bike compared to my Timberjack and SIR 9 (singlespeed). I am excited to get the ESD on terrain it is intended for, we have a trip to Spider Mountain over school vacation, and get more intimate with the capabilities of the bike. I may find that I ride this bike a lot more than originally intended. It was going to be for lift access riding and enduro fun at Highlands with my son, but who knows maybe 3 hardtails could be whittled down to 2...Who am I kidding, N+1.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

offrhodes42 said:


> My main ride is similar to yours, a Timberjack with 27.5+ tires. I finished building up a Honzo ESD and have two ride on it so far. I too thought the ESD would be a special occasion bike and the Timberjack would be my main XC/trail companion. While I only have 2 rides on the ESD so far, I may be changing that thought process. I am in NH and the 2 rides have been on relatively flat rides on packed snow singletrack and snowmobile trails. The trails are slow, twisty, and no highspeed steeps, but hold poop this ESD is fun. Yes, it is heavy. Yes, it is a long bike compared to my Timberjack and SIR 9 (singlespeed). I am excited to get the ESD on terrain it is intended for, we have a trip to Spider Mountain over school vacation, and get more intimate with the capabilities of the bike. I may find that I ride this bike a lot more than original intended. It was going to be for lift access riding and enduro fun at Highlands with my son, but who knows maybe 3 hardtails could be whittled down to 2...Who am I kidding, N+1.


N+1 for sure. Also, I live on the side of a mountain, and can tell you that you'll be tickled when you get to point it down hill.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

dammit. watching that HTP experimental fork offset video ruined me. I have been thinking about getting a new frame and hanging my current parts on it, but now I'm paranoid about missing the mark with my Fox 34 120mm fork, which has a 51mm offset. the bike will explode!


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> dammit. watching that HTP experimental fork offset video ruined me. I have been thinking about getting a new frame and hanging my current parts on it, but now I'm paranoid about missing the mark with my Fox 34 120mm fork, which has a 51mm offset. the bike will explode!


Meh, I prefer the 51mm offset on my ARC!


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

numbnuts said:


> Meh, I prefer the 51mm offset on my ARC!
> View attachment 1967055


 genuinely curious: what's the travel on that fork, and did you try it with the same fork with a different offset?


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> genuinely curious: what's the travel on that fork, and did you try it with the same fork with a different offset?


That's a 130mm Pike Ultimate. Had a 130mm Fox 34 44mm offset originally, much prefer the Pike at 51mm, its 35mm width and its damper over the fox. That's not to say I don't love fox forks, but everything is better with this Pike on this this bike (and it looks better too lol)


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

@numbnuts : suspension performance aside, what was the different in handling between the offsets of the forks? do you think you can make a direct comparison?


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> @numbnuts : suspension performance aside, what was the different in handling between the offsets of the forks? do you think you can make a direct comparison?


I think telling he difference between 44 and 51 is difficult, even with back to back, which I did. The bike felt a little quicker in the flowy, fast switch backs, but arguably not noticeable on climbs. I wouldn't hesitate with going with your 51mm.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Interesting. I would have thought 44mm would be slightly floppier on steep climbs than 51mm fork.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Funoutside said:


> Interesting. I would have thought 44mm would be slightly floppier on steep climbs than 51mm fork.



perhaps, but not to a level that is measurable or observable to me.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Warning: your head might explode if you think about this too hard.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Funoutside said:


> Interesting. I would have thought 44mm would be slightly floppier on steep climbs than 51mm fork.


I've ridden a lot of slow speed tech and the short offset forks handle great at those walking speeds. No issues at all.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

62hta with a 180mm Zeb. Love my Doctahawk!


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

I've done the deep dive on fork offset. IMO it's not a super big deal for most. Some equate the difference in steering/feel to roughly .5 degrees of change in HTA. IIRC a written article with math involved said (depending) it's roughly a 9% difference in steering feel. It's noticeable for some in specific scenarios, others not so much.

As Vikb points out, the bikes geometry determines how a bike rides not the fork offset. Fork offset is more of a way to "tune" the steering feel.

I have forks with various offsets. To me it's subtle but noticeable. Nothing that you couldn't correct for or adapt to though.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

it's a relief to realize that it's not that big a deal and riders are adaptable. on the other hand, if I was about to buy a new bike, frame, or fork, I'd like to know that the hundreds or thousands of dollars I am about to spend are going to give me the most bang for my buck. buyers remorse, FOMO, etc comes into play if you pull the trigger on such-and-such frame and buy a fork with ___ offset and then start wondering if you had gone with something else. I would not be surprised if we see suspension forks on the higher end with adjustable offset using a flip chip at the axle, similar to that Enve fork that HTP Steve tested in a video posted earlier in this thread. swapping the CSU of the fork is also an option, but it's expensive and labor-intensive. a nice 120mm fork that would allow me to push the axle forward or back with a few quick steps would be really cool.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ the Enve fatbike fork has inserts that you can flip between different offsets with no tools. I feel like I've seen other carbon gravel forks that do the same but don't remember. 

It would definitely be more complicated to do on a suspension fork. Maybe we'll get there at some point but there's also 50 other ways to adjust steering feel. Wheelbase, HTA, etc. I'm not sure it's necessary frankly, at least not important enough that it needs to be included on every fork for every bike.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

by the time someone engineers a suspension fork with adjustable offset, I hope we have something close to a consensus on how to pick the most suitable offset for the rider/bike/terrain. right now, all I read is conflicting accounts of what measurement does what. every few years, bicycle designers "discover" that something they stopped doing a few years ago is suddenly a good idea again. It's not difficult to calculate, but I have not frame of reference for that that number means. maybe it's a red herring, but I like putting a number on something that sounds theoretically right. people who build custom frames and know their craft well seem to be able to do this, so I wonder what kind of Dark Art they have mastered to come to their conclusions.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

The offset difference shouldn't be enough to play the what if game. If it is, you're well into analysis paralysis anyway.


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

My bike has about a 67.5ish head angle (Chumba Sendero) and I've run it with both a 120mm fork at 51mm offset and 44mm offset, as well as 130mm at 44mm offset.

Definitely prefer the 44mm and I did notice a pretty significant difference. With the 51mm there was more of a tendency to oversteer through corners. The 44mm turns in better and the bike responds to leaning more and low speed tech is great.

I've even run a 49mm carbon rigid fork and noticed the increased oversteer, but YMMV.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

dysfunction said:


> The offset difference shouldn't be enough to play the what if game. If it is, you're well into analysis paralysis anyway.


+1 - If you can't remain satisfied with a new bike that rides well due to FOMO that's not a bike problem. Personally once I get a bike that rides well setup/dialed for me the last thing I want to do is get a new bike and start that process all over again. There is every chance the new bike will ride worse than the old one and even if it was as good I would have to start the setup process all over again.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

gsteitz said:


> My bike has about a 67.5ish head angle (Chumba Sendero) and I've run it with both a 120mm fork at 51mm offset and 44mm offset, as well as 130mm at 44mm offset.
> 
> Definitely prefer the 44mm and I did notice a pretty significant difference. With the 51mm there was more of a tendency to oversteer through corners. The 44mm turns in better and the bike responds to leaning more and low speed tech is great.
> 
> I've even run a 49mm carbon rigid fork and noticed the increased oversteer, but YMMV.


I've been very cognizant of this lately. my bike is far from LLS, but I feel comfortable climbing chunky tech, descending, and taking small drops, up-ledges, bunnyhopping, etc. I can almost ride it like a trials bike because the wheelbase is so short. [medium Karate Monkey, 120mm fork, 29" tires, 70mm stem, 67.5° hta? 5'9" rider.] the thing that gives me trouble is flat corners. I'm sure 99% of that is technique and the rider is to blame if I come up short, but the bike always feels like it's fighting me on flat corners.

I rode a route with lots of twisty, flat turns on a narrow singletrack last night to see how my flat corner game is doing. I angled my visor up to remind me to look at the exit and do that whole "steer with my navel" thing I've heard. it helped a lot, as my [email protected] records showed. i was also just pedalling really hard, the temperature was perfect, and the trail didn't have its common coating of moon dust. once in a while I can make a smooth, carved turn, and it's incredibly satisfying. I want more of my riding experience to feel like that. contrary to the advice I keep reading to "put weight on the front wheel" by centering myself on the bike, I find that I am more likely to make the turn smoothly if I basically hang my butt waaay off the back of the bike, putting all my weight on the rear. this happens seated or standing, with the seatpost up or dropped.

however, on most corners, I would lean the bike with my weight centered and it would start to carve well, but then something would go wrong and I'd find myself drifting to the outside of the corner. sometimes i have to brake to avoid skittering into a tree. when I lean the bike, it can only lean so far before it wants to jackknife on the front, or the front wants to wash out. I feel like the margin for error is so slim that I end up straightening out before completing the turn. the front tire wants to plow sideways into the dirt rather than roll. so I carve the turn at first, then have to steer the opposite direction to wright the bike and to keep from losing traction. my corners don't follow a smooth arc, but rather a series of wiggly mini-turns. that's very frustrating. I'm still not sure if that can be described as under- or over-steering, or if that paradigm is even useful useful.

I've tried this on _tarmac_ and with a bunch of different tires and pressures with similar results, so it's not a tire thing. I could adjust fork settings (120mm boost Fox 34). mostly, I need to adapt. but something about it feels like the bike is fighting me. I'm in the market for a new frame anyways, but I don't know what aspect of a new setup might mitigate this affect.

I'm not sure that internet advice is going to help me, but it helps to type this out. it forces me to really think about it so I can put it into words. so thanks for reading.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am in the I prefer 44mm also camp. It's less floppy. But, this is on mostly modern bikes. The steepest bike I own has a 67 degree HA. Once pointed down it's not as big of a deal. 

On your cornering - I am also 99% sure it's technique. But, you are riding an "old school" geometry bike at this point. However, as well as a new bike - in person coaching would help a ton.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

cassieno said:


> On your cornering - I am also 99% sure it's technique. But, you are riding an "old school" geometry bike at this point. However, as well as a new bike - in person coaching would help a ton.


fo sure. the KM is a weird chimera of old and new style bike. I'm going for something more modern eventually. in the meantime, I'm going to get some field cones and force myself to learn some good cornering technique. it's likely that a properly set-up and more modern bike could help in some respects, but in the end it's mostly technique. if riding was 100% the rider, we'd all be riding 1988 Trek Antelopes and no one would have any reason to complain.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

My first ride on a super modern HT on flat corners felt all sorts of wrong. I had to be coached to be able to turn it.


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## Leveq (12 mo ago)

cassieno said:


> My first ride on a super modern HT on flat corners felt all sorts of wrong. I had to be coached to be able to turn it.


It's kind of a similar thing with track driving in different cars, and its the difference between "knowing how to drive/ride" (which allows you to adapt to what you currently have, regardless of how it feels and needs), and driving/riding by "muscle memory". Basically a big part of what separates the greats from the good/average. I'm more comfortable with the driving bit of the comparison, but even tho I'm a noob on a bike I'm pretty certain it applies all the same.

A pretty obvious sign is watching pro riders and guys like Sam Pilgrim who can just hop on anything and shred like maniacs, regardless of what it is.


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