# Bike hijackers on trails



## EthanKasier (Apr 9, 2018)

I have never experienced this once after a couple dozen times out on the trail. It seems that it's picking up more traffic as the year goes by. Majority of the time its just hikers enjoying their walk in the forest or other fellow mountain bikers.

But this time there were 3 people hiding out on the trail trying to hijack a bike. I was able to see them and it was really suspicious. Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry. 

I contacted the police about this occurrence. This wasn't the first time I've seen suspicious things on the trail. There were cases of sabotage and logs being hidden and put on the trail around February. I remember having a talk with another mountain biker about a man dug pothole in the middle of a descent. It was pretty obvious someone was messing around with the trails instead of nature taking its course.

I would also like to note this isn't the best place to live. So I don't know about you guys. But so far this last experience really turned me off.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Walkers?


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

EthanKasier said:


> I have never experienced this once after a couple dozen times out on the trail. It seems that it's picking up more traffic as the year goes by. Majority of the time its just hikers enjoying their walk in the forest or other fellow mountain bikers.
> 
> But this time there were 3 people hiding out on the trail trying to hijack a bike. I was able to see them and it was really suspicious. Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry.
> 
> ...


Depending where I ride, I often carry a Kimber CDP II Ultra 45, sometimes a spare magazine. On some rides, there is over 50,000 USD over 8 bikes on display. A young girl was murdred on one of my favorite trail that was in a very nice area. That scum is rotting in jail till death. I am ready to protect my party and anyone I encounter in distress. I am not paranoid, just prepared.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Well. That's completely useless information.


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## Pedalon2018 (Apr 24, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Well. That's completely useless information.


Useless information like in MSU report on the scum bag doctor that exonerates MSU?


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## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

dont ride alone and carry protection. one of my dads friends was fishing with his wife, and 3 guys came at them real quick. he lifted his shirt up just enough to reveal his gun, they turned and ran

assholes are everywhere


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## cameden (Aug 28, 2013)

y'all mountain biking in detroit?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I've never heard of it happening in the UK but it has occurred to me that it would be an easy way to steal bikes. Thieves are getting more brazen and bikes more valuable so I think it's inevitable that things like this will happen.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

cameden said:


> y'all mountain biking in detroit?


I live near Detroit. It would not happen here. It is way to much effort and too risky to try and take things for free in the woods. No need for me to say more. I'm sure someone can spell it all out if it is needed.


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## UtahJohn (Feb 6, 2014)

Getting shot is an occupational hazard of being a thief.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Can't shoot a thief, but if they know that you're armed it does tend to discourage the theft process.


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## Angelcaro (Jul 17, 2016)

No one has to know if you did...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

You did the right thing, even if you are armed, it's not a reason to have a stand off when you can get away and no one gets hurt (what they teach in CCW classes). 

They make bear-spray mounting options for us up here in Alaska that would work excellent for those types of situation, so that something is readily accessible rather than in a pocket or worse, in a pack (excluding wearing something like a chest-holster). The cheap way to do it is cut the top off a water bottle and stick whatever you want in there as insulation and stick the bear-spray canister inside all of that.


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## 71 10-7 (Nov 8, 2004)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Depending where I ride, I often carry a Kimber CDP II Ultra 45, sometimes a spare magazine. On some rides, there is over 50,000 USD over 8 bikes on display. A young girl was murdred on one of my favorite trail that was in a very nice area. That scum is rotting in jail till death. I am ready to protect my party and anyone I encounter in distress. I am not paranoid, just prepared.


^^^Bingo.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

It's a shame this happens anywhere but knowing about it and being heads-up can sure help. Retreat from a threat or encounter is indeed a smart plan if an option and some states make that a legal requirement versus the armed home or property owner pursing/advancing or even a stand-off. Reality is we know many civilians do have firearms and may or may not be 'trained' in that legal sense or act accordingly under duress / heat of the moment.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Not to try and sound like a tough guy but my son trains in BJJ and the same instructor teaches me other things. Unless someone has a gun, chances are they aren't getting a bike from us. 
Another one of my friends, who is very unassuming appearing trains in MMA and is very good at fighting multiple attackers. I could only imagine what he's capable of.


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## GoingNowhere (Oct 15, 2014)

Honestly, I usually see more interesting / weird / creepy people riding on rail trails than I do mountain biking in the woods. I suppose I also see a ton more people on rail trails in general.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

NYrr496 said:


> Not to try and sound like a tough guy but my son trains in BJJ and the same instructor teaches me other things.


Overconfidence can be dangerous as you do not know what you are up against. I knew a karate black belt, who was also a good street fighter, who was stabbed and killed is a fight with some bikers. Multiple attackers, especially if they are armed is a risk for anyone.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> Overconfidence can be dangerous as you do not know what you are up against. I knew a karate black belt, who was also a good street fighter, who was stabbed and killed is a fight with some bikers. Multiple attackers, especially if they are armed is a risk for anyone.


Absolutely true.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

Meh, if they want the bike they can have it. No bike is worth my life. Having said that, I don't make my self an easy target. I'm still aware of my surroundings, and if a situation doesn't feel right I will turn around and return to where I came from.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

askibum02 said:


> Meh, if they want the bike they can have it. No bike is worth my life.


I like my bikes. I would fight for them.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I often ride alone in Oakland, but I'm a total badass and ride unarmed.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Our woods are filled with dangerous squirrels, which I find very distracting.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

askibum02 said:


> Meh, if they want the bike they can have it. No bike is worth my life. Having said that, I don't make my self an easy target. I'm still aware of my surroundings, and if a situation doesn't feel right I will turn around and return to where I came from.


+ 10


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

askibum02 said:


> Meh, if they want the bike they can have it. No bike is worth my life. Having said that, I don't make my self an easy target. I'm still aware of my surroundings, and if a situation doesn't feel right I will turn around and return to where I came from.


I absolutely agree. In fact, no bike worth having to even consider taking the _thief's_ life. My bikes are insured.

Where I live, the concept of ever having to defend my life, or my bike, on our local mountain bike trails is almost inconceivable. I have a handgun permit and a lot of training but carrying a gun on the local trails here is just not something that I've considered very often.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

One Pivot said:


> I often ride alone in Oakland, but I'm a total badass and ride unarmed.


Wow. I'm nervous just replying to this post.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Useless information like in MSU report on the scum bag doctor that exonerates MSU?


Um....yeah....sure?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Our woods are filled with dangerous squirrels, which I find very distracting.


For real though, I ran over one of the little buggers tails, couldnt avoid it. He was very irate.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I can’t even stand carrying the extra bulk of my wallet or camelbak on me. I can’t picture hitting a drop or throwing a whip on a double jump with a pistol on my hip. 

Anyway, my bikes are covered by homeowner’s insurance so it would be less hassle to file a claim and go buy a new bike than to fight to the death.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

One Pivot said:


> I often ride alone in Oakland, but I'm a total badass and ride unarmed.


How do you steer?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm a pretty fast runner and our trails are twisty. I'd be real tempted to take a short cut, hide and then ambush them with a big shove off the trail into a tree when they come by. Hope my bike is ok.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> I'm a pretty fast runner and our trails are twisty. I'd be real tempted to take a short cut, hide and then ambush them with a big shove off the trail into a tree when they come by. Hope my bike is ok.


Make sure to get it on GoPro and you'd be a YouTube superstar.

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## broncbuster (Jun 11, 2006)

chazpat said:


> How do you steer?


Maybe a foot unless he's defeated??!!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I generally find that a 0.50 cal. BMG mounted on the handlebars discourages would-be thieves.


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

adaycj said:


> I live near Detroit. It would not happen here. It is way to much effort and too risky to try and take things for free in the woods. No need for me to say more. I'm sure someone can spell it all out if it is needed.


Exactly.

J-


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

chazpat said:


> How do you steer?


I did not anticipate this response. :lol:


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> Overconfidence can be dangerous as you do not know what you are up against. I knew a karate black belt, who was also a good street fighter, who was stabbed and killed is a fight with some bikers. Multiple attackers, especially if they are armed is a risk for anyone.


This. Eddie Bravo himself isn't going to win again against three people who want to hurt him. He'll F-up the first guy he gets ahold of and then his buddies will tap dance on his head while he is tied up on the ground with the first guy.

Now if you told me you train in Krav Maga or Muay Thai then you would have a fighting chance against more than one person.

Having been a cop for 2.5 decades and having to had to fight multiple people at a time in real life (more than once, I'm a poop magnet lol) who wanted nothing more than to kill me I can tell you that BJJ etc would not have helped one bit (and I trained BJJ before BJJ was cool).

J-


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Funny there were three of them. I'd like to see them ride away with their prize.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Wear camo. They'll never see you.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm going to develop a helmet mounted pepper sprayer. It'll have a built in face shield that drops down instantly when you activate the sprayer.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> I'm going to develop a helmet mounted pepper sprayer. It'll have a built in face shield that drops down instantly when you activate the sprayer.


What's your timeline goal to make it to market?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> What's your timeline goal to make it to market?


Before I run into hijackers on the trails.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

i had some unsavory types make a rush at me in marin county while i was riding the bike path between sausalito and mill valley on the way to mt tam. 

marin county is pretty swanky but there are sketchy places.

the fool told me "good move" when i rode straight over a curb to avoid him.

i told him to go f*ck himself.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

shekky said:


> i had some unsavory types make a rush at me in marin county while i was riding the bike path between sausalito and mill valley on the way to mt tam.
> 
> marin county is pretty swanky but there are sketchy places.
> 
> ...


Scary ****, good job on ditching and telling him where he needs to place his junk.:thumbsup:


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Pedalon2018 said:


> Depending where I ride, I often carry a Kimber CDP II Ultra 45, sometimes a spare magazine. On some rides, there is over 50,000 USD over 8 bikes on display. A young girl was murdred on one of my favorite trail that was in a very nice area. That scum is rotting in jail till death. I am ready to protect my party and anyone I encounter in distress. I am not paranoid, just prepared.


If you are seriously carrying a 1911 on the trial, I just hope you are using a holster.



Cuyuna said:


> I absolutely agree. In fact, no bike worth having to even consider taking the _thief's_ life. My bikes are insured.


A person who is trying to take your bike from your immediate control is not just a thief, he is a ROBBER. A robbery is not just a property crime; it is a crime against the victim.

Those of you who think that just giving the robber the property will always keep you from getting harmed or killed are kidding yourselves. For all you know, the robber just did something really terrible and needs your bike to successfully flee. I'm not saying that resisting with force is the only option or even the best option, that depends very much on circumstances. But you should all seriously consider that a robber might have more of a reason to harm you than an opportunistic thief who is just trying to sell your expensive property for cash.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

What’s it like to ride bikes with a sidearm and extra clips on your belt? How do you actually throw the bikes around in the air with all that weight bouncing around? It seems like it would be awkward.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

Cornfield said:


> Before I run into hijackers on the trails.


That's made my day :lol::lol::lol:


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Wait, you guys actually go out on trails and sh1t? I thought this was just a social media "virtual mountain biking" site. Damn!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> If you are seriously carrying a 1911 on the trial, I just hope you are using a holster.
> 
> A person who is trying to take your bike from your immediate control is not just a thief, he is a ROBBER. A robbery is not just a property crime; it is a crime against the victim.
> 
> Those of you who think that just giving the robber the property will always keep you from getting harmed or killed are kidding yourselves. For all you know, the robber just did something really terrible and needs your bike to successfully flee. I'm not saying that resisting with force is the only option or even the best option, that depends very much on circumstances. But you should all seriously consider that a robber might have more of a reason to harm you than an opportunistic thief who is just trying to sell your expensive property for cash.


If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Nat said:


> What's it like to ride bikes with a sidearm and extra clips on your belt? How do you actually throw the bikes around in the air with all that weight bouncing around? It seems like it would be awkward.


Who carries extra magazines? In the overwhelming majority of armed self-defense encounters, no more than two shots are fired. The fantasy of protracted gunfights out on the trail (or anywhere) is just that...a fantasy.


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> I'm going to develop a helmet mounted pepper sprayer. It'll have a built in face shield that drops down instantly when you activate the sprayer.


Dropper face shield!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


That would depend upon which state it occurs in.

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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Cornfield said:


> I'm going to develop a helmet mounted pepper sprayer. It'll have a built in face shield that drops down instantly when you activate the sprayer.


I'm in on the kickstart for this. Will you have an option for a remote on the bars? Maybe you could integrate with a dropper post lever. Push lever part way to drop post, push all the way to drop face shield and activate sprayer.


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cuyuna said:


> If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


Depends where u are at. Middle of nowhere and three people threating you with physical harm unless you given them your property. You very well may be good.

One of them have their hand in their pocket portraying that they have a weapon? you're good at that point.

When it comes to justifiability the actions of the suspect(s) and the perception of those actions by the shooter are what matters.

Obviously the last thing that anyone wants is to shoot and kill someone but just because someone is "unarmed" doesn't mean they are not easily a threat to your life.

Plus most people will turn and run when faced with a "victim" with a gun, especially if that is provided as an option.

J-


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

slowpoker said:


> Dropper face shield!


You can be director of marketing!



JACKL said:


> I'm in on the kickstart for this. Will you have an option for a remote on the bars? Maybe you could integrate with a dropper post lever. Push lever part way to drop post, push all the way to drop face shield and activate sprayer.


And now we have a design engineer! We'd have to use Di2 technology to achieve that, which I think is doable.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> You can be director of marketing!
> 
> And now we have a design engineer! We'd have to use Di2 technology to achieve that, which I think is doable.


At first I was onboard as being just a consumer, but if you're offering positions can I get in for an interview? I'm booked through the week but have a short window between 2 and 4pm on Friday. Otherwise next week I can open up something early so I don't miss out on the opportunity. My qualifications and position pending what you need of course. I can tweak my qualifications on my resume to fit what you need, call me.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> You can be director of marketing!
> 
> And now we have a design engineer! We'd have to use Di2 technology to achieve that, which I think is doable.


No go on the Di2 tech, according to a certain someone on this site, that would mean using it would make your bike into an ebike. Gonna need a cable. Or maybe hydraulic line.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Cuyuna said:


> Who carries extra magazines?


At least one person:



Pedalon2018 said:


> Depending where I ride, I often carry a Kimber CDP II Ultra 45, sometimes a spare magazine.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cuyuna said:


> If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


The safe thing to do would be drag the dead perp down the trail, strap them to your vehicle, drive home, drag them into your house and claim the shooting happened there.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Like Hustler? 
That's probably what they were after. Very compelling articles.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

jjc155 said:


> Depends where u are at. Middle of nowhere and three people threating you with physical harm unless you given them your property. You very well may be good.
> 
> One of them have their hand in their pocket portraying that they have a weapon? you're good at that point.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. All you have to do is sell it to the DA, or maybe a jury. I wonder whether or not (in some areas) defense would be justified under carjacking statutes. In many places, armed self-defense in that circumstance is statutorily stipulated.



jjc155 said:


> Plus most people will turn and run when faced with a "victim" with a gun, especially if that is provided as an option.


Absolutely. The need to actually fire the thing would generally require a very committed robber. Casual thefts...typically less so.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Nat said:


> At least one person:


Yes. The protracted gunfight fantasy is fairly common.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> Yes. The protracted gunfight fantasy is fairly common.


Not that it's pertinent to the thread but needing more ammo is only one, and in my opinion a low priority reason, for carrying a spare mag.

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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chazpat again.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Not that it's pertinent to the thread but needing more ammo is only one, and in my opinion a low priority reason, for carrying a spare mag.


That's kind of cryptic. What's it mean?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Nat said:


> That's kind of cryptic. What's it mean?


A multitude of things. A bad box of ammo, assuming you load different mags from different boxes, or a magazine induced feed error would be two pressing reasons.

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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

JACKL said:


> I'm in on the kickstart for this. Will you have an option for a remote on the bars? Maybe you could integrate with a dropper post lever. Push lever part way to drop post, push all the way to drop face shield and activate sprayer.


the only way this could happen is via bluetooth...:eekster:


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Not that it's pertinent to the thread but needing more ammo is only one, and in my opinion a low priority reason, for carrying a spare mag.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Rather than carry a spare magazine in relatively low-risk scenarios, I'd be inclined to counsel people to purchase a high-quality firearm, quality magazines, and quality ammunition. The incidence of failure in that regard would be extraordinarily low.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> Rather than carry a spare magazine, I'd be inclined to counsel people to purchase a high-quality firearm, quality magazines, and quality ammunition.


I don't disagree but even with that I don't think my view changes.

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't disagree but even with that I don't think my view changes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Self defense and the means of accomplishing it is a personal decision. So many variables and experiences...likely no right or wrong answer. The need to carry spare magazines is an ongoing discussion on gun forums and in self-defense courses with good opinions on both sides of the issue.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> Self defense and the means of accomplishing it is a personal decision. So many variables and experiences...likely no right or wrong answer.


I agree wholeheartedly.

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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> Yes. The protracted gunfight fantasy is fairly common.


This is precisely why I am a former sidearm carrier turned anti-CC laws. I was in the first group of people to get their concealed carry license in my state when it was legalized, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable the amount of people I know with their CC license who don't take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously. I can't count how many times I have heard people make offhand comments about just shooting someone for any discomfort they may feel, or being completely unrealistic about how a situation may go down if they actually had to pull their gun.

Honestly, I would have been better off NOT going through the class and finding out from experience the mental weight of carrying a firearm. It terrifies me that just about anyone with no serious criminal record could potentially carry a gun into the woods and start ripping off wild shots at someone who they think is a bike thief. Same for anywhere else; restaurants, Target, etc. I have been to the shooting range enough times to know that if a criminal starts mowing people down in public, 99.9% of the population (even if they have a CC permit) have no business trying to equalize the situation.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Maybe I should have left the rapid rise rear derailleur on my hardtail; thief takes it and as he is pedaling away with me chasing after him (to shove him into a tree), he's shifting wrong and spinning madly as he is slowing down or hits a climb and clicks it into a higher and higher gear. 

Kind of like when someone steals a car with no experience driving a stick.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This is precisely why I am a former sidearm carrier turned anti-CC laws. I was in the first group of people to get their concealed carry license in my state when it was legalized, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable the amount of people I know with their CC license who don't take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously. I can't count how many times I have heard people make offhand comments about just shooting someone for any discomfort they may feel, or being completely unrealistic about how a situation may go down if they actually had to pull their gun.
> 
> Honestly, I would have been better off NOT going through the class and finding out from experience the mental weight of carrying a firearm. It terrifies me that just about anyone with no serious criminal record could potentially carry a gun into the woods and start ripping off wild shots at someone who they think is a bike thief. Same for anywhere else; restaurants, Target, etc. I have been to the shooting range enough times to know that if a criminal starts mowing people down in public, 99.9% of the population (even if they have a CC permit) have no business trying to equalize the situation.


The number of people that go out and buy a gun and then believe that they are now safe from all manner of threats without _any _self-defense training is indeed distressing and dangerous. On the other side of that coin are those CCW carriers that, with or without training, view themselves as some kind of auxiliary policeman. However, I don't view the unfortunate attitudes of those folks as having anything to do with my decision to have a handgun permit. But yes...carrying a gun is an enormous responsibility. People should take it seriously.

However, it's also true that actual adverse firearms incidents among those folk are rare, and that as the number of CCWs increases in a given area, crime tends to decrease.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> At first I was onboard as being just a consumer, but if you're offering positions can I get in for an interview?


Nope, you don't have the qualifications for fantasy work.



chazpat said:


> No go on the Di2 tech, according to a certain someone on this site, that would mean using it would make your bike into an ebike. Gonna need a cable. Or maybe hydraulic line.


Screw that someone, it's a servo! Wait, I think we can actually use that someone for testing purposes, to see what kind of range we can get out of the pepper spray cannon.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> However, it's also true that actual adverse firearms incidents among those folk are rare


Incidents with CC permit holders on both sides of the argument is rare. In the true spirit of strapping a gun to yourself for the sake of protection though, I say "anything can happen at any time"... including Jethro who took the 4 hour CCW class, barely qualified during the shooting portion and now has a .45 tucked in his waistband shooting at something that he PERCEIVES is a threat.

Also, I am going to challenge you on the whole "more CCW = less crime" thing. I would have to see some hard data on that. People are going to act like idiots no matter what, and I am pretty sure the majority of idiots don't stop to consider that maybe a random guy in the booth across from him at Pizza Hut has a sidearm.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> Nope, you don't have the qualifications for fantasy work.


But, but. . . . you must have missed this part of my post.



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> My qualifications and position pending what you need of course. I can tweak my qualifications on my resume to fit what you need, call me.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)




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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

EthanKasier said:


> I have never experienced this once after a couple dozen times out on the trail. It seems that it's picking up more traffic as the year goes by. Majority of the time its just hikers enjoying their walk in the forest or other fellow mountain bikers.
> 
> But this time there were 3 people hiding out on the trail trying to hijack a bike. I was able to see them and it was really suspicious. Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry.
> 
> ...





MSU Alum said:


> Well. That's completely useless information.


Without explaining where this took place, yes the story is useless.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


Somehow I don't think you know who you're talking to about this. The law of self defense in my State doesn't require me to articulate anything. It requires the State to disprove my claim of self defense. I'm not going to stand around and wait for someone who is in the active commission of a felony against my person to determine whether they are "the threat to [my] life." I am going to apply deadly force immediately, because I immediately fear death or serious bodily injury any time a violent felony is in progress and I am the victim. A robbery is not a petty property crime and the statistics regarding the willingness of robbers to kill their victims are sufficiently overwhelming to me that I'm not taking that chance. I have one life.

Unlike the police, there are no constitutional constraints on my use of deadly force. I'm not going to sit around and try to decide how immediate the threat is. The law of self defense requires no such assessment under these circumstances.

A person who is trying to steal my bike from my person is committing a crime against my person, not just my bike. I have insurance for the bike and I don't give a rat's ass about the bike. But I'm not going to give someone an opportunity to use violence against me for a piece of property, either. That absolutely is not happening while I have the means to resist.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm thinking a small potato gun that can fire dog poo baggies. Kill two birds with turds as the saying goes. Free ammo everywhere.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Are all of you guys pedaling around with a gun on your hip (or chest or wherever)? I ask because in 30 years of riding I can’t recall actually seeing a single person out mountain biking with a sidearm. I’ve seen bike police officers armed while at work of course but never anyone sport riding out on the trails. If you said yes, where do you live?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Nat said:


> Are all of you guys pedaling around with a gun on your hip (or chest or wherever)? I ask because in 30 years of riding I can't recall actually seeing a single person out mountain biking with a sidearm. I've seen bike police officers armed while at work of course but never anyone sport riding out on the trails. If you said yes, where do you live?


x 2.

where?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

twodownzero said:


> Somehow I don't think you know who you're talking to about this. The law of self defense in my State doesn't require me to articulate anything. It requires the State to disprove my claim of self defense. I'm not going to stand around and wait for someone who is in the active commission of a felony against my person to determine whether they are "the threat to [my] life." I am going to apply deadly force immediately, because I immediately fear death or serious bodily injury any time a violent felony is in progress and I am the victim. A robbery is not a petty property crime and the statistics regarding the willingness of robbers to kill their victims are sufficiently overwhelming to me that I'm not taking that chance. I have one life.
> 
> Unlike the police, there are no constitutional constraints on my use of deadly force. I'm not going to sit around and try to decide how immediate the threat is. The law of self defense requires no such assessment under these circumstances.
> 
> A person who is trying to steal my bike from my person is committing a crime against my person, not just my bike. I have insurance for the bike and I don't give a rat's ass about the bike. But I'm not going to give someone an opportunity to use violence against me for a piece of property, either. That absolutely is not happening while I have the means to resist.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Great, another gun thread.

https://goo.gl/images/mcmwLq


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

This thread is a good reminder to pack my light Kershaw and pepper spray when I ride alone. As far as you guys wanting to shoot and kill someone for trying to steal your bike, I'm all for it. Just one less criminal in the world to harm your wife, mother or daughter, because that's what criminals do.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> Somehow I don't think you know who you're talking to about this. The law of self defense in my State doesn't require me to articulate anything. It requires the State to disprove my claim of self defense. I'm not going to stand around and wait for someone who is in the active commission of a felony against my person to determine whether they are "the threat to [my] life." I am going to apply deadly force immediately, because I immediately fear death or serious bodily injury any time a violent felony is in progress and I am the victim. A robbery is not a petty property crime and the statistics regarding the willingness of robbers to kill their victims are sufficiently overwhelming to me that I'm not taking that chance. I have one life.
> 
> Unlike the police, there are no constitutional constraints on my use of deadly force. I'm not going to sit around and try to decide how immediate the threat is. The law of self defense requires no such assessment under these circumstances.
> 
> A person who is trying to steal my bike from my person is committing a crime against my person, not just my bike. I have insurance for the bike and I don't give a rat's ass about the bike. But I'm not going to give someone an opportunity to use violence against me for a piece of property, either. That absolutely is not happening while I have the means to resist.


An illuminating screed. _Now_ I know who I'm talking to about this  ........'MURICA!!!!! F*** YEAH!!!!! Right?

Good luck with that, Cowboy.


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Cuyuna said:


> An illuminating screed. _Now_ I know who I'm talking to about this
> 
> Good luck with that, Cowboy.
> 
> ........'MURICA!!!!! F*** YEAH!!!!!


He clearly just pointing out reality and the truth when it comes to criminals in today's society. Scum bags in groups beat people up for a lot less than a 7K bike and it happens quite often. One punch deaths happen a lot more than you think and yes, they are unarmed and should have been shot in every scenario prior to killing the person without a weapon.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I feel obligated to post this video again of some real life trail highjackers in order to get this thread back on track. Be safe!






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Chicane32 said:


> He clearly just pointing out reality and the truth when it comes to criminals in today's society. Scum bags in groups beat people up for a lot less than a 7K bike and it happens quite often. One punch deaths happen a lot more than you think and yes, they are unarmed and should have been shot in every scenario prior to killing the person without a weapon.


I have no problem with the concept of using lethal force to protect my life or the life of another. I even train for it regularly. Absent the threat of death however...they can have my bike. Setting aside the morality of killing someone, the inconvenience of the legal fallout is potentially monumental....(some states more than others). I'd take the inconvenience of replacing my insured bike over the inconvenience of the criminal or civil (or both) legal process any day.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

cjsb said:


> I feel obligated to post this video again of some real life trail highjackers in order to get this thread back on track. Be safe!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh damn. They can hijack my trail any day!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Now where did I put my rollerskates.
Cool video.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

shekky said:


> x 2.
> 
> where?


On my rides I typically see a bunch of other people having a good time riding bikes, trail running, hiking, walking dogs, and occasionally riding horses.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Nat said:


> On my rides I typically see a bunch of other people having a good time riding bikes, trail running, hiking, walking dogs, and occasionally riding horses.


Exactly. I even ride at night by myself sometimes.


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Nat said:


> On my rides I typically see a bunch of other people having a good time riding bikes, trail running, hiking, walking dogs, and occasionally riding horses.


That's what we all see 100% of the time. Same goes for walking to our car, getting in and driving away. It doesn't mean that people aren't car jacked or killed getting into their car, either. Most of us don't have a Mountain Lion chase us, but it happened last month in Wa, so no matter how rediculous you think this thread is, it does and will happen.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Great, another gun thread.
> 
> https://goo.gl/images/mcmwLq


I was also disappointed that the kickstarter didn't gain more traction. If they developed a whole line of products, I'd go in and casually test their products James Bond style. Should make for a pretty good viral video, no?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Chicane32 said:


> That's what we all see 100% of the time. Same goes for walking to our car, getting in and driving away. It doesn't mean that people aren't car jacked or killed getting into their car, either. Most of us don't have a Mountain Lion chase us, but it happened last month in Wa, so no matter how rediculous you think this thread is, it does and will happen.


First of all, I never said this thread was ridiculous; That's your own interpretation. If I thought this thread were ridiculous I wouldn't keep posting.

Second, I want to know where everyone's riding that they feel their life is threatened because in all of the many places I've ridden in the past 30 years I've never felt like I wanted my gun on me (yes I'm a gun owner). Have YOU ever gotten jacked or near-jacked while out biking?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> At first I was onboard as being just a consumer, but if you're offering positions can I get in for an interview? I'm booked through the week but have a short window between 2 and 4pm on Friday. Otherwise next week I can open up something early so I don't miss out on the opportunity. My qualifications and position pending what you need of course. I can tweak my qualifications on my resume to fit what you need, call me.


I think we just found our product tester. We need someone to jump out of the bushes and perform mock attacks so we can fine tune the volume, accuracy, and effectiveness of the sprayer. You also will get to appear in our promotional videos. Welcome aboard!


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> An illuminating screed. _Now_ I know who I'm talking to about this  ........'MURICA!!!!! F*** YEAH!!!!! Right?
> 
> Good luck with that, Cowboy.


Obviously not, since your retort has nothing to do with the merits and simply resorted to insults.

I might also add to my previous comments that in my State, the State must disprove a claim of self defense _beyond a reasonable doubt_. In other words, the law requires them to prove a negative to the highest standard known to the law.

If you want to be the victim of a violent felony and do nothing about it because the violent felony also involves a taking of property, be my guest.

Fortunately I'm quite confident that my community would never charge a person under those circumstances.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Is it legal in US to shoot these hijackers? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

JACKL said:


> I think we just found our product tester. We need someone to jump out of the bushes and perform mock attacks so we can fine tune the volume, accuracy, and effectiveness of the sprayer. You also will get to appear in our promotional videos. Welcome aboard!


Great, I'm hired without even tweaking my resume to fit the job requirements. Before I sign and commit I have a few questions of my own.

1] Does this job include an allowance for jumping shoes?

2] Will I be supplied a mini tool kit with an Awesome Strap for the fine tuning of the sprayer?

3] Does the job include a high end mountain bike painted up in camo. to conceal my presence in the bushes?

4] Will I be supplied with the best mtb kit available for a professional look in the promotional videos?

If these demand's are met to the fullest I'd be happy to join the team, given the salary meets my skillset.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Great, I'm hired without even tweaking my resume to fit the job requirements. Before I sign and commit I have s few questions of my own.
> 
> 1] Does this job include an allowance for jumping shoes?
> 
> ...


My thinking is that they need someone that resembles a mugger or hobo. Take it as you will.


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## Wheels327 (Apr 11, 2018)

EthanKasier said:


> I have never experienced this once after a couple dozen times out on the trail. It seems that it's picking up more traffic as the year goes by. Majority of the time its just hikers enjoying their walk in the forest or other fellow mountain bikers.
> 
> But this time there were 3 people hiding out on the trail trying to hijack a bike. I was able to see them and it was really suspicious. Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry.
> 
> ...


Can you please tell us where this was?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

life behind bars said:


> My thinking is that they need someone that resembles a mugger or hobo. Take it as you will.


So the high end "kit" for the promotional videos was a bit much to ask?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So the high end "kit" for the promotional videos was a bit much to ask?


Not if it's kit from the Salvation Army so I'd hold out for it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

life behind bars said:


> Not if it's kit from the Salvation Army so I'd hold out for it.


It's probably best I trim that demand off my list. I don't want to overpush my boundaries and miss the chance at being chosen for the position.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

sito40 said:


> Is it legal in US to shoot these hijackers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


 It varies quite a bit from state to state. Generally speaking, it's legal to use lethal force to save your life or the life of another in almost all places. If a reasonable person believes that during such a hijacking his life is in danger then it would probably be legal to shoot the perpetrator. Regardless of whether you're actually charged with a crime or not, you Will be spending some time in conversations with the local District attorney, and again depending on the state, will also be having conversations with your own attorney regarding the inevitable wrongful death suit that will be filed against you by the perpetrators family. In some states, if the shooting is determined to be justified, civil lawsuits can't be filed.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Great, I'm hired without even tweaking my resume to fit the job requirements. Before I sign and commit I have a few questions of my own.
> 
> 1] Does this job include an allowance for jumping shoes?
> 
> ...


this is more likely what you test

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/boer-war/1899-military-tandem-tricycle-with-maxim/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's probably best I trim that demand off my list. I don't want to overpush my boundaries and miss the chance at being chosen for the position.


Nor do you want to wear a kit someone donated to the Salvation Army. :arf:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

cjsb said:


> this is more likely what you test
> 
> 1901 Vickers Machine Gun Tandem Tricycle | The Online Bicycle Museum
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The first drive by's?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> It varies quite a bit from state to state. Generally speaking, it's legal to use lethal force to save your life or the life of another in almost all places. If a reasonable person believes that during such a hijacking his life is in danger then it would probably be legal to shoot the perpetrator. Regardless of whether you're actually charged with a crime or not, you Will be spending some time in conversations with the local District attorney, and again depending on the state, will also be having conversations with your own attorney regarding the inevitable wrongful death suit that will be filed against you by the perpetrators family. In some states, if the shooting is determined to be justified, civil lawsuits can't be filed.


In Texas and Washington state life or personal harm do not even have to come into the equation. There is so much complexity to these laws it's almost irresponsible to discuss them in depth here.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't disagree but even with that I don't think my view changes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Honestly I would rather a person spend more money on training and becoming proficient with their firearm. There are a **** ton of people out there with quality everything that when faced with needing to act and make it count, can't.

When I mean trained I am not talking about standing at a range and punching paper all day either but neither am I taking about Navy SEAL or SWAT type training ether.

Id take a well trained person with a $199 Highpoint pistol and full metal jacket range reloads vs a person with 2000dollar 1911, three mags and factory SD ammo every day and twice on sunday.

J-


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

jjc155 said:


> Honestly I would rather a person spend more money on training and becoming proficient with their firearm. There are a **** ton of people out there with quality everything that when faced with needing to act and make it count, can't.
> 
> When I mean trained I am not talking about standing at a range and punching paper all day either but neither am I taking about Navy SEAL or SWAT type training ether.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree but even with that I don't think my view changes.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cjsb said:


> this is more likely what you test
> 
> 1901 Vickers Machine Gun Tandem Tricycle | The Online Bicycle Museum
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Great, I'm hired without even tweaking my resume to fit the job requirements. Before I sign and commit I have a few questions of my own.
> 
> 1] Does this job include an allowance for jumping shoes?
> 
> ...


You'll get minimum wage, an awesome strap, a size small spandex kit, and you'll be thankful. Also, this is not a union job, and we don't allow employees to organize in any way.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

It's sad so many people are so scared they think they need to carry a firearm on the trail. Are you gonna really shoot some pathetic drug addict or whoever because they're gonna steal the $7000 dollar bill you're riding through the woods? Why not just mace them? Ride away (you're so fast right?)? Or, best of all, fight them off like a real man. 

****, if I can't race them or mace them, then, dude, have my bike. It's just a bike. 

The brake levers on it are **** anyway.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tealy said:


> Or, best of all, fight them off like a real man.


That's a suckers bet.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

ahhh....never mind


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I ride a 26er. Nobody's gonna steal that.

We don't get that sort of problem on the trails near me, perhaps because everything is so steep way too much effort to get up here.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Cuyuna said:


> The number of people that go out and buy a gun and then believe that they are now safe from all manner of threats without _any _self-defense training is indeed distressing and dangerous. On the other side of that coin are those CCW carriers that, with or without training, view themselves as some kind of auxiliary policeman. However, I don't view the unfortunate attitudes of those folks as having anything to do with my decision to have a handgun permit. But yes...carrying a gun is an enormous responsibility. People should take it seriously.
> 
> However, it's also true that actual adverse firearms incidents among those folk are rare, and that as the number of CCWs increases in a given area, crime tends to decrease.


I get genuinely spooked seeing the open carry at times. Many look like their goal is to attain respect or celebrity notice by getting this attention. 
I have to say, the stealth version of carry as CCW far outweighs odds IMO.

I often see these tall, old cowboy-looking guys with a holster hanging so loose and far off their waist the gun appears hanging lateral as if it may fall at any time. 
Nevermind the fact that it draws further attention and any wiseguy, meth-head or wanna-be criminal standing in line behind them could take a grab at that thing and really start a fiasco.

All because of open carry.


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## tealy (Mar 7, 2013)

Back when I was young and stupid, I carried. Because that's what you did where I'm from in backwards-ass U.S.A. But right away I noticed carrying made me scared and paranoid and sick with worry. With a gun, you're always monitoring "the situation" which otherwise would be "picking up some Pert Plus from Wal-Mart". And you're always having to **** with your holster and pull your shirt down and keep track of your gun and all that. So after a while, I left the gun at home and I was instantly, totally relieved. And yeah since then I have regularly gone into sketchy neighborhoods and situations but I exercise common sense: treat people like they're human beings, avoid escalating confrontations, avoid being in a situation where you're likely to be victimized, etc ... and that's been pretty effective. If I'm going someplace ultra-sketchy, maybe I'll bring mace. But even that's rare for me. I don't know, I'd rather go out running like a ***** or fighting like a man than having accidentally shot some poor bastard who didn't deserve to die because things got out of hand. I don't want that on my conscience forever.

Now don't doubt for a second I'm making all this up from some liberal no-real-world-experience utopia. In fact, I doubt many users of this forum grew up more immersed in gun culture than me. I spent my entire childhood at gun shows, gun clubs, gun stores, and pumping out more reloaded ammo before my 12th birthday than you've shot in your whole life. I shot plates, long range rifle (even 50 BMG *****), skeet, trap, assault weapons for fun, hunted this and that, etc, etc. 

But my life in gun culture only showed me how dangerous guns are and just how batshit crazy most gun enthusiasts are. Examples: My neighbor accidentally shot himself on his front porch. I've had a semi shotgun just go off in my hands when I didn't pull the trigger (yeah that can happen). I've had bullets ping off trees around me because some stupid ******* didn't use a proper backstop. I've seen morons with guns threaten people without guns over small beef. I've found a loaded handgun left in a public restroom by someone who must of been a total moron. The gist of this is ... I've been in way, way more situations where I was almost killed by a gun than where my life would have been saved by a gun.

Plus, I have yet to meet any real gun enthusiasts who isn't A) almost schizophrenically paranoid about self-defense or B) scared of going into the real world or C) wants to feel more powerful than other people ... or any combination thereof. All this nonsense about rights and the constitution is just a justification, an excuse for wanting to carry a gun for the previously mentioned bullshit reasons. I know because I've done that.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

bachman1961 said:


> I get genuinely spooked seeing the open carry at times. Many look like their goal is to attain respect or celebrity notice by getting this attention.
> I have to say, the stealth version of carry as CCW far outweighs odds IMO.
> 
> I often see these tall, old cowboy-looking guys with a holster hanging so loose and far off their waist the gun appears hanging lateral as if it may fall at any time.
> ...


A few years ago I took a part time airport shuttle job. I used to get up into Wyoming and transport them to the Denver Airport. There were many down time hours spent waiting for the next passenger pickup. So many of those hours were spent in coffee shops passing the time. One coffee shop I used to hit regulary I often saw an old cowboy all dressed up his his cowboy attire. Strapped across his back was an AR-15 and holstered was a semi auto sidearm. The first couple of times I saw him I wasn't sure what to think. One of the last times I saw him he was sitting and shooting the bull with a couple of other locals. I overheard him saying that when the drug smugglers run across his land they end up 6' under. Not exactly the most relaxing visit to a coffee shop.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

bachman1961 said:


> I get genuinely spooked seeing the open carry at times. Many look like their goal is to attain respect or celebrity notice by getting this attention.
> I have to say, the stealth version of carry as CCW far outweighs odds IMO.


Personally, I am opposed to open carry. It spooks people and creates too much potential backlash.



tealy said:


> Back when I was young and stupid, I carried. Because that's what you did where I'm from in backwards-ass U.S.A. But right away I noticed carrying made me scared and paranoid and sick with worry. With a gun, you're always monitoring "the situation" which otherwise would be "picking up some Pert Plus from Wal-Mart". And you're always having to **** with your holster and pull your shirt down and keep track of your gun and all that. So after a while, I left the gun at home and I was instantly, totally relieved.


Sounds like a good choice for you. It's apparent that armed self-defense isn't for you if carrying a gun causes more anxiety than the risks you face.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Is it possible the drug cartel infiltrate your area? They already entered border states 

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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

We actually have a huge MS13 problem on Long Island. I haven't yet seen them in the woods but one of the trails I frequent is in one of their areas. They keep dumping bodies of kids they've killed in the woods. 
Hope I never see them.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Life is dangerous in US. I would carry guns too if I live in the US 

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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

tealy said:


> Back when I was young and stupid, I carried. Because that's what you did where I'm from in backwards-ass U.S.A. But right away I noticed carrying made me scared and paranoid and sick with worry. With a gun, you're always monitoring "the situation" which otherwise would be "picking up some Pert Plus from Wal-Mart". And you're always having to **** with your holster and pull your shirt down and keep track of your gun and all that. So after a while, I left the gun at home and I was instantly, totally relieved. And yeah since then I have regularly gone into sketchy neighborhoods and situations but I exercise common sense: treat people like they're human beings, avoid escalating confrontations, avoid being in a situation where you're likely to be victimized, etc ... and that's been pretty effective. If I'm going someplace ultra-sketchy, maybe I'll bring mace. But even that's rare for me. I don't know, I'd rather go out running like a ***** or fighting like a man than having accidentally shot some poor bastard who didn't deserve to die because things got out of hand. I don't want that on my conscience forever.
> 
> Now don't doubt for a second I'm making all this up from some liberal no-real-world-experience utopia. In fact, I doubt many users of this forum grew up more immersed in gun culture than me. I spent my entire childhood at gun shows, gun clubs, gun stores, and pumping out more reloaded ammo before my 12th birthday than you've shot in your whole life. I shot plates, long range rifle (even 50 BMG *****), skeet, trap, assault weapons for fun, hunted this and that, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Spot on.

People who want to carry, provided they are legal, can carry. Let's stop trying to justify it for any other reason.

On many trails, firearms are prohibited. On many trails, open carry is prohibited.

An honest question for those in the know: A shoulder or hip holster, under regular clothing, would be considered concelead. Is it considered concealed under a bike jersey if everyone can see it's silhouette? 
Truly concealing a weapon while on a bike might make getting to the weapon impractical.

As said multiple times in all of these threads, if you are truly worried about your safety while riding, bear spray is a great solution!


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> Sounds like a good choice for you. It's apparent that armed self-defense isn't for you if carrying a gun causes more anxiety than the risks you face.


Statistics show that his viewpoint is the most realistic one.

I'm pretty pro gun - I hunt, own somewhere between 5-15 guns at any point in time, and have a number of CCW carriers in my family... but I also understand the statistics and the fact that owning guns INCREASES my (and my families) risk, and that higher numbers of concealed carry folks increases overall societal risk.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Not exactly hijacking, but there had been a problem at a popular spot in Vermont. There's a popular spot to cool off where the trail passes near the river. Someone had figured out that by riding crap beater bikes into the system and waiting for a group to stop and walk down to the water, they could just pick up a high end bike and ride off with it. I don't know how many times it happened or if they caught the thief. I'm sure it was never publicized.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

MOJO K said:


> Not exactly hijacking, but there had been a problem at a popular spot in Vermont. There's a popular spot to cool off where the trail passes near the river. Someone had figured out that by riding crap beater bikes into the system and waiting for a group to stop and walk down to the water, they could just pick up a high end bike and ride off with it. I don't know how many times it happened or if they caught the thief. I'm sure it was never publicized.


Well. It is time to carry a gun. I won't any gangster to rob me

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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

sito40 said:


> Well. It is time to carry a gun. I won't any gangster to rob me


Not really any gangsters in northern Vermont. I think the best defense is to carry a bottle of Oxycodone in the pack and bribe that pathetic addict to just leave you alone.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

MOJO K said:


> Not really any gangsters in northern Vermont. I think the best defense is to carry a bottle of Oxycodone in the pack and bribe that pathetic addict to just leave you alone.


Isn't Vermont full of rich people?

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

aborgman said:


> Statistics show that his viewpoint is the most realistic one.
> 
> I'm pretty pro gun - I hunt, own somewhere between 5-15 guns at any point in time, and have a number of CCW carriers in my family... but I also understand the statistics and the fact that owning guns INCREASES my (and my families) risk, and that higher numbers of concealed carry folks increases overall societal risk.


For people who believe those statistics, carrying a gun would likely be counterproductive and unnecessarily stressful.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> For people who believe those statistics, carrying a gun would likely be counterproductive and unnecessarily stressful.


The statistics don't require "belief" - they are objective data.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> For people who believe those statistics, carrying a gun would likely be counterproductive and unnecessarily stressful.


I believe them.

And I'm guessing I'm a bit more comfortable with using a gun than you are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I believe them.
> 
> And I'm guessing I'm a bit more comfortable with using a gun than you are.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't and I'm guessing I'm MUCH more comfortable using a gun than you are.

Honestly those "statistics" make zero sense.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Honestly those "statistics" make zero sense.


Sure they do.

1) Lots of gun owners/users aren't responsible.
2) Humans make mistakes - even responsible well trained ones.
3) Accidents happen.


----------



## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

aborgman said:


> Sure they do.
> 
> 1) Lots of gun owners/users aren't responsible.
> 2) Humans make mistakes - even responsible well trained ones.
> 3) Accidents happen.


That still doesn't put you more at risk simply because you have a gun. Only one of those is causal and I'm not even sure that it's significant enough to worry about when compared to other accidents.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That still doesn't put you more at risk simply because you have a gun. Only one of those is causal and I'm not even sure that it's significant enough to worry about when compared to other accidents.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I got shot in the chest by a man hunting next to my house.

If he wasn't there, with a gun, that incident doesn't occur. The average American, with or without a gun, isn't particularly, um, inspiring.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't and I'm guessing I'm MUCH more comfortable using a gun than you are.
> 
> Honestly those "statistics" make zero sense.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


How many times have you been engaged by, returned fire and destroyed a human target?

How many kilometers have you walked in country?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

aborgman said:


> The statistics don't require "belief" - they are objective data.


And of course, statistical presentations are always absolutely accurate, never spun by whatever group happens to be gathering the statistics.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I believe them.
> 
> And I'm guessing I'm a bit more comfortable with using a gun than you are.


I'm pretty confident that you're wrong on both counts.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I got shot in the chest by a man hunting next to my house.
> 
> If he wasn't there, with a gun, that incident doesn't occur. The average American, with or without a gun, isn't particularly, um, inspiring.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's you being at risk, not him. And him having the gun was not the ultimate causal factor. His irresponsibility was. Other's unrelated, independent actions have zero bearing on the risk one assumes despite the potential loose correlation.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> How many times have you been engaged by, returned fire and destroyed a human target?
> 
> How many kilometers have you walked in country?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


None of those are pertinent to my competence and comfort handling a firearm.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> I'm pretty confident that you're wrong on both counts.


What was the range of your last TIC?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

aborgman said:


> The statistics don't require "belief" - they are subjective data.


Fify

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)




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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That still doesn't put you more at risk simply because you have a gun.


The risk of a gun accident (of many sorts) is certainly higher if you have a gun.

...just like the risk of a drowning accident is higher if you have a pool.

One can argue about whether the cost outweighs the benefit, but it's pretty much impossible to argue the cost is zero.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> What was the range of your last TIC?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Again a red herring, not pertinent to his comfort or capability.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

aborgman said:


> The risk of a gun accident (of many sorts) is certainly higher if you have a gun.
> 
> ...just like the risk of a drowning accident is higher if you have a pool.
> 
> One can argue about whether the cost outweighs the benefit, but it's pretty much impossible to argue the cost is zero.


It is higher, undoubtedly, however how much higher is it than say a cop doing a backflip and shooting you when he picks up his gun, just an example.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

These threads always bring out the people who feel it's there duty to tell everyone how dangerous guns are.... go away. If you don't like what someone else does within their legal right just scroll along. Post your solution to ward off potential bike jackers and move on... no one wants to hear you rant.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

tuckerjt07 said:


> None of those are pertinent to my competence and comfort handling a firearm.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


hah! that's pretty funny.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> What was the range of your last TIC?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Irrelevant. Are you trying to equate military service with firearms experience and using it to prove your expertise in the civilian firearms world?

Generally speaking, the only group of individuals that might be more firearms-inept than your average cop would be your average soldier.


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Streetdoctor said:


> These threads always bring out the people who feel it's there duty to tell everyone how dangerous guns are.... go away. If you don't like what someone else does within their legal right just scroll along. Post your solution to ward off potential bike jackers and move on... no one wants to hear you rant.


I agree with you, but at the same time, these threads also bring out the gun yahoos.

Isn't the first rule of CCW the same as the first rule for Fight Club?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1208751


Is that the prototype or the final product?


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## CUP-TON (Dec 7, 2016)




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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

sito40 said:


> Isn't Vermont full of rich people?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Only on the weekends.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

cornfield said:


> pic with no cable/hydro line











fify


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

NYrr496 said:


> We actually have a huge MS13 problem on Long Island. I haven't yet seen them in the woods but one of the trails I frequent is in one of their areas. They keep dumping bodies of kids they've killed in the woods.
> Hope I never see them.


Like you really need another reason to avoid Edgewood?!

I haven't had nor heard of anyone running into anything even close to that. I think they know better than to use populated bike trails. All we have to worry about are the homeless, the certifiably insane, the furries, the vapid mindless hikers and dogwalkers, the guidos, and ticks that give you that incurable meat allergy for life.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Irrelevant. Are you trying to equate military service with firearms experience and using it to prove your expertise in the civilian firearms world?
> 
> Generally speaking, the only group of individuals that might be more firearms-inept than your average cop would be your average soldier.


I'm just wondering how you'll know how you'll react when things pop off.

But, apparently me knowing how I'll react, having done it in real life is irrelevant. And yet you have total confidence in yourself despite having no real world experience.

Makes perfect sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Around early 1992, Police across the country were so failing in accurate shooting that it was mandated they have more training. The root cause for many was their infatuation with quality or custom guns as they acquired higher end weapons. They all but stopped training and shooting with their duty weapon.

As for this;



Streetdoctor said:


> These threads always bring out the people who feel it's there duty to tell everyone how dangerous guns are.... go away. *If you don't like what someone else does within their legal right* just scroll along. Post your solution to ward off potential bike jackers and move on... no one wants to hear you rant.


I know what you are saying but I do admit, I see and read of many gun enthusiasts, experts and supporters calling out the fact that CCW training, good handling, control and storage of firearms or anybody with the 'right' to have or carry isn't necessarily at or above a bar of standards that should be required and met. 
Too many stories and news about those that are sloppy, didn't store it safely or other things gone wrong. THAT's what the opposition party can thrown in the face, even if the numbers or stats are low.

_* Legal right in bold because I think it's just that blanket statement that pre-supposes everyone with a gun by means of legal requirements or the least of basic competency standards is 'sufficient'._



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> A few years ago I took a part time airport shuttle job. I used to get up into Wyoming and transport them to the Denver Airport. There were many down time hours spent waiting for the next passenger pickup. So many of those hours were spent in coffee shops passing the time. One coffee shop I used to hit regulary I often saw an old cowboy all dressed up his his cowboy attire. Strapped across his back was an AR-15 and holstered was a semi auto sidearm. The first couple of times I saw him I wasn't sure what to think. One of the last times I saw him he was sitting and shooting the bull with a couple of other locals. I overheard him saying that when the drug smugglers run across his land they end up 6' under. Not exactly the most relaxing visit to a coffee shop.


And to think what a bold cup of java with a shot of expresso would do for his Trigger-finger ! :eekster:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Again a red herring, not pertinent to his comfort or capability.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Oh.

So, he has no real world experience actually DOING it.

"I can totally ride every pro line at Whistler".

Sorry, that's bullshit until you actually do it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Oh.
> 
> So, he has no real world experience actually DOING it.
> 
> ...


Again, you are stuck on a red herring. What you are talking about has zero, no, none, zilch, insert your favorite negative case adjective here, bearing on his comfort handling a firearm.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Again, you are stuck on a red herring. What you are talking about has zero, no, none, zilch, insert your favorite negative case adjective here, bearing on his comfort handling a firearm.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


So, you believe that everyone reacts the same way under stress?

Every single person?

When I say "comfort", I mean are they physically, mentally and emotionally capable of bringing a weapon to bear on a living human target and destroying it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

aborgman said:


> The risk of a gun accident (of many sorts) is certainly higher if you have a gun.
> 
> ...just like the risk of a drowning accident is higher if you have a pool.
> 
> One can argue about whether the cost outweighs the benefit, but it's pretty much impossible to argue the cost is zero.


This is why these threads are the proverbial head scratchers for me. Promoting and romantisizing carrying a gun on one of the biggest user base MTB forums in the USA seems incredibly shortsighted. More people in the woods with guns statistically increases the potential for someone to get shot. It really is that simple.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

I’m not worried about bikejackers on the trails, but rather the women dog walkers. Recently, there have been attacks on women, although not in the woods. 

I know that some of these women must carry concealed, and I don’t feel like getting shot when a lady dog walker freaks out as I pass by. 

I have a ltc, but frankly, riding with a loaded gun seems quite dangerous. Not going to do it and am not going to escalate any situation with a dog walker. 

I just hope I don’t get blown away by gun toting Susie while she’s walking Fido. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> So, you believe that everyone reacts the same way under stress?
> 
> Every single person?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, but that's not what you said. However, I do know how I would react when being shot at. I've been unfortunate to have had that experience and not just getting peppered by harmless birdshot. I also know I am an above average instinctive and reactionary shooter. Although, neither of those have any bearing on my comfort level handling a firearm.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> I'm just wondering how you'll know how you'll react when things pop off.
> 
> But, apparently me knowing how I'll react, having done it in real life is irrelevant. And yet you have total confidence in yourself despite having no real world experience.
> 
> ...


16 years on the county Sheriff TAC Team. Also 8 years as Assistant County Coroner, although I rarely got shot at in that role, and a decade on the Bomb Squad which was also rather sedate by comparison.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chazpat said:


> fify


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

GuitsBoy said:


> Like you really need another reason to avoid Edgewood?!
> 
> I haven't had nor heard of anyone running into anything even close to that. I think they know better than to use populated bike trails. All we have to worry about are the homeless, the certifiably insane, the furries, the vapid mindless hikers and dogwalkers, the guidos, and ticks that give you that incurable meat allergy for life.


I HATE Edgewood. Whenever my friends post that they'll be riding there, I decline and go to Glacier.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

Cuyuna said:


> .... and a decade on the Bomb Squad which was also rather sedate by comparison.


So how did you feel when people used to say "That's da bomb!"? Like it, hate it, indifferent?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Brodino said:


> So how did you feel when people used to say "That's da bomb!"? Like it, hate it, indifferent?


I wasn't a tech or EOD, my job was sitting around waiting for something exciting to happen - _that's_ when I went into action. If the EOD's did their job correctly, I had nothing to do. Which was fine with me. Excitement on the Bomb Squad is like excitement in the operating room....almost never good.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cuyuna, A question for you... How does LE feel in general about concealed (or open) carry for the general population, these days?

When I went through the Academy in the early 90's we had numerous conversations about it and the near universal feeling was that cops wanted fewer guns on the street, not more. Has that changed?

Full disclosure: When I graduated in May of '92, the economy took a HUGE dip and the agency I was in the hiring process with cut all hiring. So did every agency in my area for the following two years and I was not willing to go to LA. For the record, I'm glad I changed directions.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Cuyuna said:


> I wasn't a tech or EOD, my job was sitting around waiting for something exciting to happen - _that's_ when I went into action. If the EOD's did their job correctly, I had nothing to do. Which was fine with me. Excitement on the Bomb Squad is like excitement in the operating room....almost never good.


You have an exciting job. I have a crappy job

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

chuckha62 said:


> Cuyuna, A question for you... How does LE feel in general about concealed (or open) carry for the general population, these days?
> 
> When I went through the Academy in the early 90's we had numerous conversations about it and the near universal feeling was that cops wanted fewer guns on the street, not more. Has that changed?
> 
> Full disclosure: When I graduated in May of '92, the economy took a HUGE dip and the agency I was in the hiring process with cut all hiring. So did every agency in my area for the following two years and I was not willing to go to LA. For the record, I'm glad I changed directions.


I took a class called,"The Art of Concealed Carry." At least in MA, concealed means undetectable by the police while in public.

If the police see a part of the gun, imprint on clothes, etc. it's not concealed and you're off to a very bad day with the popo.

In fact, after taking the class, learning about MA law and liabilities if you shoot someone, I decided NOT to carry.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chuckha62 said:


> Cuyuna, A question for you... How does LE feel in general about concealed (or open) carry for the general population, these days?
> 
> When I went through the Academy in the early 90's we had numerous conversations about it and the near universal feeling was that cops wanted fewer guns on the street, not more. Has that changed?
> 
> Full disclosure: When I graduated in May of '92, the economy took a HUGE dip and the agency I was in the hiring process with cut all hiring. So did every agency in my area for the following two years and I was not willing to go to LA. For the record, I'm glad I changed directions.


The general run of LEO's that I know are fine with concealed carry. Not all, but I would say most.There tends to be less enthusiasm among Sheriffs and Chiefs of Police. Those are generally political offices and their opinions tend to be more shaped by local politics. Around here, all the Chiefs of Police and the Sheriff are fine with CCW.

Back in the old days, on the threshold of more wide spread carry laws ("Shall Issue" rather than "May Issue"), a lot of cops thought that more guns would mean blood in the streets. Over decades of finding out that permit holders were generally not a problem, attitudes have shifted signficantly. The place where CCW becomes an issue for cops tends to be traffic stops and folks who choose to open carry. Most cops are uncomfortable when they spot a firearm during a traffic stop (certainly can't blame 'em) and different cops have different methods of dealing with it. As to open carry, in this state the law doesn't distinguish between open carry vs concealed. Permit holders can do either, but inevitably someone open carrying at, say, Starbucks will generate a 911 call (predictably). That's annoying for most cops.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

ravewoofer said:


> I took a class called,"The Art of Concealed Carry." At least in MA, concealed means undetectable by the police while in public.
> 
> If the police see a part of the gun, imprint on clothes, etc. it's not concealed and you're off to a very bad day with the popo.
> 
> ...


Around here a handgun permit means you can carry either open or concealed. Printing isn't a problem.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

jjc155 said:


> This. Eddie Bravo himself isn't going to win again against three people who want to hurt him. He'll F-up the first guy he gets ahold of and then his buddies will tap dance on his head while he is tied up on the ground with the first guy.
> 
> Now if you told me you train in Krav Maga or Muay Thai then you would have a fighting chance against more than one person.
> 
> ...


15+ years of Krav Maga training, CCW, and many hand-to-combat training sessions with SWAT, special forces, etc. The best defense is the 'Nike" defense (run) or in this case, RIDE! I don't carry a gun when I ride, but I do carry a taser C2 (projectile) which should work equally well on human and animal predators and I carry a knife. In general, when a red light is focused on your chest and someone is holding a taser, the threatening individual tends to have second thoughts. Multiple attackers is obviously a bad position to be in, but at least a taser will take out one person and that will buy some time to get away or have to deal with one less bad guy. As others have mentioned, using a gun--even if you are confident it is in self-defense--will likely result in time in court and $$. I love my bike and feel confident I could protect myself, but it is not worth my life to find out.


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

drich said:


> 15+ years of Krav Maga training, CCW, and many hand-to-combat training sessions with SWAT, special forces, etc. The best defense is the 'Nike" defense (run) or in this case, RIDE! I don't carry a gun when I ride, but I do carry a taser C2 (projectile) which should work equally well on human and animal predators and I carry a knife. In general, when a red light is focused on your chest and someone is holding a taser, the threatening individual tends to have second thoughts. Multiple attackers is obviously a bad position to be in, but at least a taser will take out one person and that will buy some time to get away or have to deal with one less bad guy. As others have mentioned, using a gun--even if you are confident it is in self-defense--will likely result in time in court and $$. I love my bike and feel confident I could protect myself, but it is not worth my life to find out.


Yep Tasers are great, been a Certified Taser Instructor for going on a decade.

J-


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1208751


This model seemed a little unrealistic given the gravity of the situation, so I've made a slight modification.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Yes!  :lol:


HK just needs a face shield to protect him from teh pepper sprayz.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

noapathy said:


> This model seemed a little unrealistic given the gravity of the situation, so I've made a slight modification.
> 
> View attachment 1208829


Hahhh!!! Hucking Kitty!


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Huckin' Kittehs with pepper sprays > Sharks with frickin' laser beams


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

the one ring said:


> Huckin' Kittehs with pepper sprays > Sharks with frickin' laser beams


We've been having shark attacks on Long Island. MS13 in the woods, sharks in the water...
What next?


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

NYrr496 said:


> We've been having shark attacks on Long Island. MS13 in the woods, sharks in the water...
> What next?


Sharks on the trails. We will need shark terminators

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

NYrr496 said:


> We've been having shark attacks on Long Island. MS13 in the woods, sharks in the water...
> What next?


Human sacrifices, dogs and cats living together-mass hysteria!!!!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

NYrr496 said:


> We've been having shark attacks on Long Island. MS13 in the woods, sharks in the water...
> What next?


It's not kosher without saying it like this, Lonnnnn ga Island.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

ravewoofer said:


> I'm not worried about bikejackers on the trails, but rather the women dog walkers. Recently, there have been attacks on women, although not in the woods.
> 
> I know that some of these women must carry concealed, and I don't feel like getting shot when a lady dog walker freaks out as I pass by.
> 
> ...


If you pee on her leg, expect negative results.

How negative, I'm not sure but getting shot seems like way way down to the far side of the negative scale.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

NYrr496 said:


> We've been having shark attacks on Long Island. MS13 in the woods, sharks in the water...
> What next?


MS13 reminds me of a slogan (various memes) spotted on fb. 
It was posted that the AR15 ought to be renamed MS13 since it would then be protected. 
Kind of a clever funny.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

bachman1961 said:


> MS13 reminds me of a slogan (various memes) spotted on fb.
> It was posted that the AR15 ought to be renamed MS13 since it would then be protected.
> Kind of a clever funny.


Truly.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This is precisely why I am a former sidearm carrier turned anti-CC laws. I was in the first group of people to get their concealed carry license in my state when it was legalized, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable the amount of people I know with their CC license who don't take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously. *I can't count how many times I have heard people make offhand comments about just shooting someone for any discomfort they may feel, or being completely unrealistic about how a situation may go down if they actually had to pull their gun. *
> 
> Honestly, I would have been better off NOT going through the class and finding out from experience the mental weight of carrying a firearm.* It terrifies me that just about anyone with no serious criminal record could potentially carry a gun into the woods and start ripping off wild shots at someone who they think is a bike thief. Same for anywhere else; restaurants, Target, etc. I have been to the shooting range enough times to know that if a criminal starts mowing people down in public, 99.9% of the population (even if they have a CC permit) have no business trying to equalize the situation.*


Yet you have your wild and unrealistic ideas of what could go wrong, but hasn't happened either. You are the same lunatic..just on the opposite side of the coin


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Ducman said:


> Yet you have your wild and unrealistic ideas of what could go wrong, but hasn't happened either. You are the same lunatic..just on the opposite side of the coin


A person arguing in favor of responsible gun ownership and responsible CCW is not a lunatic. 
People on both sides of the gun control issue can talk about responsible CCW, particularly in situations where CCW is more difficult, or even prohibited.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

djlee said:


> A person arguing in favor of responsible gun ownership and responsible CCW is not a lunatic.
> People on both sides of the gun control issue can talk about responsible CCW, particularly in situations where CCW is more difficult, or even prohibited.


He not arguing for responsible CCW. He said he is anti CCW, because he is terrified of situations that have never happened.


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Ducman said:


> He not arguing for responsible CCW. He said he is anti CCW, because he is terrified of situations that have never happened.


You're right. He is not arguing in favor of responsible CCW.
He is arguing against irresponsible CCW.

Being "terrified" of that doesn't make someone a lunatic.


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## miamic70 (Feb 26, 2008)

I am positive that not only will I dispatch the perpetrator trying to do me harm but I’ll get a pat on the back from the cops. Not sure what nanny state or country you live in but I assure you as a citizen of a stand your ground state cowering to criminals in not necessary and the criminals know it.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

djlee said:


> You're right. He is not arguing in favor of responsible CCW.
> He is arguing against irresponsible CCW.
> 
> Being "terrified" of that doesn't make someone a lunatic.


He justification for being anti CCW is based on fantasy, just like the CCW holders that he overheard and said are "unrealistic." Both sides justifying their position on something that does not happen. Both sides are extreme and both sides are lunatics.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Picard said:


> the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?


I've been in exactly that position. Long time ago, I had to repo a rental diesel generator. It was within NYC limits and my dad said we were not breaking the law and bringing guns. Of course, the guy came out with a pump shotgun and emptied it at us. Thankfully, he couldn't shoot and when he ran out of shells, we charged back at him. 
Not a fun feeling.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

If all I knew about the US was what I read, I'd think it's like Afghanistan. 

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Travis Bickle said:


> If all I knew about the US was what I read, I'd think it's like Afghanistan.


Based on what I read, I should probably start locking my doors at night.


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

It's the same as it ever was. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. The sheep like to pretend that there are no wolves, and they resent the sheepdogs. Many of the sheep don't even want the sheepdog to fight the wolves. Their only strategy is to hope that the wolves attack someone else, and they refuse to believe that the only effective solution is to kill the wolves.


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## Red_Label (Sep 2, 2008)

DeadGrandpa said:


> It's the same as it ever was. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. The sheep like to pretend that there are no wolves, and they resent the sheepdogs. Many of the sheep don't even want the sheepdog to fight the wolves. Their only strategy is to hope that the wolves attack someone else, and they refuse to believe that the only effective solution is to kill the wolves.


Yup. Our society is being overrun by wolves because inexplicably, the trembling sheep are more afraid of the sheepdogs than they are the wolves. Things will continue to deteriorate until people get tired of being victims and stand up to crime.

Regardless... I've been packing for decades. Have never even pulled my CCW (other than a pair of rottweilers running wild... but didn't shoot them). I live and recreate in griz, mountain lion, and grey wolf country. But two legged predators concern me far more. When hiking I carry my S&W 329PD .44 mag. But when mountain biking it's almost always just my cheap, light Kahr CW380 and a couple of spare mags (and bear spray when riding in griz territory). I leave my heavy pig Sig Sauer and Kimber 1911s home. I bought my Sig Tac Ops 10mm for possible bear duty, but it's too heavy and my two .44mags loaded with 305 grain hardcast are far more potent bear medicine anyways. As far as human threats go, my 380s give me plenty of peace of mind.

I wish sheeple would stop being more scared of regular people who choose not to be victims than they are of humans with actual evil intentions. It's bizarre and frankly, it's a sign of the times we live in that millions of years of survival/preservation instinct seem to have been completely erased within a generation. The world is not a safe space. If you don't take responsibility for protecting yourself and your loved ones, who will??? The police? The courts established long ago that law enforcement bears no responsibility for actually protecting your life. Ask the victims of domestic violence how much protection the printed restraining order gave them. I don't pack a weapon to protect my bike. I pack because I can't read the mind and heart of someone who makes threats to me. My family can't afford for me to miscalculate on the intentions of wolves. And since I ride alone in remote areas, it's my responsibility to be able to protect myself there. But I'm always armed, so urban wolves will fair no better than country wolves.


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## Red_Label (Sep 2, 2008)

P.S. As I type this from the comfort of my recliner on a Saturday night, my Kahr 380 sits next to me. That used to make my wife uncomfortable. She didn't understand why i always had a firearm within reach. And then a pair of 80 year old nuns in our city had their door kicked in by a couple of meth heads, who proceeded to hold them hostage and beat them for a few days. My wife is Catholic and has a soft spot for little, old ladies. That was the end of her innocence and she changed her POV. Wolves exist. Pulling the blanket over one's head won't make them go away.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

wolves are another reason I have bear spray.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Picard said:


> the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?


How about you let me bear-spray you in the face first? That would be the most accurate way for you to determine this.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Picard said:


> the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico.


Not sure how you are measuring that. 
It can be tough to find credible information as lots of things are so politicized for agenda purposes - framed narratives, cherry picking stats etc... 
I've reviewed per captia stats for crime over the years just to see what gives for where I am versus where I grew up. That information is readily available by area, state, region or whatever scale you want to review but taken at face value in the general sense, there is probably a lot to be learned or interpreted by details not given. My residence is now among a growing population approaching 600,000 maybe close to 7 x greater than my home town in the upper Midwest. Looking at it when I moved here would be comparing stats in 1993. Since that time, how have trends here or there changed? 
Population growth or changes factored in? 
Jobs market / unemployed?



Picard said:


> you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?


Some part of that may be underestimating but obviously, most people decide how comfortable they are owning or having weapons versus not and how safe they feel in their living area and traveling range. For some, the perceived threat level doesn't rise to their justification of owning or carrying firearms, others just don't believe in having them or feel up to the training and responsibility of owning and storing them.

Bear spray isn't a bad example (other than bringing it to gun battle). Some cyclists carry it, some just have a noisy bell, other's carry or pack a gun and some do none of the above. Even if all ride the same area, their own risk level, comfort or convenience of having 'extras' or some other things factor into it.

I like the fresh night air and sleeping with windows open even a crack can be a very risky situation on the ground floor or basement levels should an intruder be prowling to gain access to a home. The options for me in a two story home are lock up everything tight on the ground and basement levels and open up the windows on the 2nd story or go get them big prison bars for all my windows and leave the entire house open with less worry. We all mitigate risk with some reasoning, perception or threshold of comfort but it can be very personal, based on past experiences or the latest bear attacks in a given area.
I chose to skip two ride areas most of this summer based on rattle snake bite victim news. More rides in other areas could have been greater exposure to bear threats for all I know though.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ducman said:


> He not arguing for responsible CCW. He said he is anti CCW, because he is terrified of situations that have never happened.


I get your point although I read between the lines at times and see the spirit of what is stated rather than the 'letter of the law'. Not speaking for SSSteven, yet in this case I think of many firearms enthusiast's who speak calm and sensible or offer good advice and other's who sound rattled, phobic or hoping for WWIII to start so they can Rambo Up.

Certainly, there is lot of d-swinging talk and Big ego yapping going on that is probably just 'the guys' talking about how tough they are and taking out bad guys at 600 yards. Yet that distinction of mindset and attitude for grand-dad advice versus Quick-Trigger Tarantino can easily infer who is more responsible and level-headed on any given day not considering the tensity of a real threat in a public area with many bystanders clustered where one might become or try to be a CCW hero.

I don't research things much anymore so I'll just go from my recollection and (Please) if anyone has others, more numerous or more recent examples, update that here with ref link or citation if possible;

- I remember an armed citizen in a battle where his shooting caught an innocent by error quite a few years back.
- Another when a 'good guy' shot at a truck or shot out the tire when a vehicle tried to get away. Maybe theft involved. 
- Another one similar that happened at a Home Depot.

We don't need a lot of _good guy with gun messes up_ stories to hit what is called "media" or "news" these days but so far, it seems the isolated whack-a-do's with CCW stories have yet to get a recent headline. 
When they do, it'll be NEWS ALERT for seven weeks.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Picard said:


> the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?


The USA where the murder and violent crime rates are the lowest they have been since the 1960s?

The USA where the number of cops killed by firearms in 2014 was the lowest number since the 1880s, with 5x the population?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Back to the original topic, has any of this armed robbery/rape/murder type stuff happened to mountain bikers out riding trails? When and where?

The OP hasn't replied where his or her incident happened. I'd still like to know.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

The key here for all if us as mountain bikers is to be vigilant and proactive in our safety. The other day I came across a hiking couple and i gave them a friendly 'hello'. While they appeared to be passive bird watchers you never can tell. So I clocked them both with a cast iron frying pan that I keep at the ready in my camelbak. And guess what? They didn't steal my bike.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Scott O said:


> The key here for all if us as mountain bikers is to be vigilant and proactive in our safety. The other day I came across a hiking couple and i gave them a friendly 'hello'. While they appeared to be passive bird watchers you never can tell. So I clocked them both with a cast iron frying pan that I keep at the ready in my camelbak. And guess what? They didn't steal my bike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I think the laugh is on you. Those kind of folks are hoping to get a good head bashing. I have little doubt they laughed all the way to neurosurgery that day !


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Rather than shoot would be robbers, wouldn't it be better to disarm them?

A machete would do the job...


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Velobike said:


> Rather than shoot would be robbers, wouldn't it be better to disarm them?
> 
> A machete would do the job...


Going out on a limb there.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

the one ring said:


> Going out on a limb there.




Maybe this chap has the right idea.

I wooden try to steal a bike from him...


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

It's all pun and games until these last couple posts....


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Maybe this chap has the right idea.
> 
> I wooden try to steal a bike from him...
> 
> View attachment 1209206


I'm kinda split on the placement of that axe.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

"sleeps all night and he works all day"


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## Red_Label (Sep 2, 2008)

aborgman said:


> The USA where the murder and violent crime rates are the lowest they have been since the 1960s?
> 
> The USA where the number of cops killed by firearms in 2014 was the lowest number since the 1880s, with 5x the population?


Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

I just spent a week in DC, and it made me realize what a sheltered life I live in central North Carolina, even when I visit the biggest cities of Charlotte and Raleigh. We stayed in NE DC in a not so carefully chosen Airbnb, which during the day wasn't so bad, but at night walking back from the Metro we were greeted by several groups of individuals hanging out on the sidewalk smoking marijuana and who knows what else. We saw no less than 5 over doses with police and or fire involvement with three of them being in broad daylight. We actually called 911 on one of them while we were at the National Law Enforcement Memorial because the guy didn't move for about 20 minutes. The fire department was very professional in dealing with them, but the police were indifferent and didn't even walk over to where they were. According to the fire captain, they transported 185 patients over two days that had OD'd on a combo of K2, ketamine, and fentanyl among other things. I lost count of how many stripped bikes I saw poorly locked up, and I saw one lady walking her bike home with the front wheel missing and the most pissed off look I've ever seen on someone. For every affluent area of DC there is just as many or more depressed areas. It makes me feel sad and blessed at the same time.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Jayem said:


> wolves are another reason I have bear spray.


Has any wolves chase after bikers?


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Jayem said:


> wolves are another reason I have bear spray.





Picard said:


> Has any wolves chase after bikers?


He means protecting wolves from bear &#8230;.. DUH ?

:lol:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Picard said:


> Has any wolves chase after bikers?


I've met a wolf on the trail. Was about 50' away before I realized it wasn't just a large wolf-looking dog.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Red_Label said:


> Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.


Meaningless with out context and numbers. How many more people live there compared to before, how rates of violent crime, etc.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Red_Label said:


> Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.


Violent crimes are up on your mountain bike trails? Where do you live?


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jayem said:


> I've met a wolf on the trail. Was about 50' away before I realized it wasn't just a large wolf-looking dog.


I met a woman walking a wolf-hybrid on a local trail. Got to about 50' away before I realized it wasn't a small horse -- that thing was MASSIVE.

Impressive fuel economy, though.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Meaningless with out context and numbers. How many more people live there compared to before, how rates of violent crime, etc.


I trust that the message is things are getting worse in that area without calling out for stats or elaborate details BUT, context and specifics can be very enlightening. It's easy to challenge or look up if you know the area. I understand it may not be a trend nationally and other areas may be a safer trend or violent crime is down just as I understand the point or experience shared by askibum02 at #219.

Since not many things go unchallenged these days and subject matter gets overly swamped with emotion, opinion, or sourced from 'media talking points', how about some of 'us' replacing general terms or statements with citations or links that show where we get these ideas or info? 
Factual numbers with some context or comparisons can go a long ways to drive down the declarative statements that are not backed up, yet called into question. We might have a more meaningful or friendly exchange with less 'slop' on some of this just as many forums I've seen or participated on have certain standards about these things for reasons of safety and derailing mis-information.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Red_Label said:


> Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.


Up significantly over the last couple years, but still significantly lower than the 70s/80s/90s? With a significantly increased population?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

As soon as someone says the words “sheep”, “sheepdog”, “wolves” or the king of them all, “sheeple”, I just can’t take them seriously anymore. 

Come on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I was viciously attacked on my ride today. I tried minimum force at first but in the end had to resort to deadly force. At least that horsefly will never bother anyone again.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> As soon as someone says the words "sheep", "sheepdog", "wolves" or the king of them all, "sheeple", I just can't take them seriously anymore.
> 
> Come on.


Sheep are the hidden threat.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> As soon as someone says the words "sheep", "sheepdog", "wolves" or the king of them all, "sheeple", I just can't take them seriously anymore.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "


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## BlueDog03 (Jun 2, 2008)

https://www.ocweekly.com/santa-ana-river-trail-safer-for-cyclists-with-bike-robbery-busts-6438978/

Not a mountain bike trail but still a well used bike trail.

And

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/...bikes-found-at-fountain-valley-homeless-camp/


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

The only times I've felt threatened on the trails is from aggressive dogs, never people. I'd actually rather face a person trying to rob me than an angry pitbull with no owner in sight. This has happened twice recently to me, just last weekend I was riding in the high country in the trees and a huge dog comes running at me, I had to use my bike for protection for a good 2 minutes until the dumb owner showed up. I don't think I'll ever bring any firearms with me but will look into a small pepper spray, should do the job for a dog or a dumb tweeker lol.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

*He's lumberjack...*



MOJO K said:


> "sleeps all night and he works all day"


and he's okay!

Just wanted you to know someone remembers MP.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ducman said:


> Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "


Here's the difference.

I was sent there by the United States government, after the Senate voted to approve a request sending us there. People who were elected by the voters of their respective states. I don't claim what I did there was right, wrong, good or bad. People are entitled to think and say what they want about it.

The "sheepdogs" are self-appointed would-be purveyors of "justice". They think they are automatically doing something to be applauded, when the truth is a bit murkier than that.

Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> As soon as someone says the words "sheep", "sheepdog", "wolves" or the king of them all, "sheeple", I just can't take them seriously anymore.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Must agree....


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Ducman said:


> Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "


Must agree...


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> Who carries extra magazines?


 The Dentist Office.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Forster said:


> The Dentist Office.


Old expired "extra magazines".


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2018)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> View attachment 1209259
> 
> 
> Old expired "extra magazines".


 Well, you gotta know your audience.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Forster said:


> Well, you gotta know your audience.


It brought to mind something recently. My elderly dad is on driving restriction so I've been running him to different appointments. One of his humorous routines is when we enter a doctor, dentist or haircut appointment his first comment after checking in is, "alright let's sit down and read some expired old magazines". LOL He makes sure to say it loud enough that the receptionist and others close by hear it. Some get a good laugh but at one appointment last week I caught the receptionist giving a disgusted look. LOL


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

noapathy said:


> Sheep are the hidden threat.


Yup, they are without mercy:


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> The "sheepdogs" are self-appointed would-be purveyors of "justice". They think they are automatically doing something to be applauded, when the truth is a bit murkier than that.
> 
> Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist? FYI, there are people in my area who complied 100 percent with an armed person demanding money, etc, and they were still shot. One was running away after giving up wallet and phone. The other was standing behind the convenience store counter, murdered after handing over all the money. And yet, some people who live in the area advocate for the dissolution of the police department.

If a person expresses to me a desire to own a bike, and the genuineness of his appeal to me seems true, I will give him a bike. In fact, I did exactly that some months ago for a guy I'd just met while on my ride one day. It wasn't a beat up hand me down. It was a NOS entry level Trek hybrid.

OTOH, if a person demands my bike 
and threatens my life with a weapon, I'm disinclined to cooperate and will resist in whatever manner seems appropriate, because acquiescence does not guarantee my safety. I'm not a self appointed purveyor of anything. I'm simply taking responsibility for my own safety. The sheep, sheepdog and wolves allegory simply defines three different types of personalities. The official sheepdogs in our society are the police and the military. Unfortunately, the police can't be everywhere and prevent all crime. Individuals may choose to defend themselves, or not.

You can think what you like. I have a philosophy that allows me to coexist with others that believe differently. I wish others would adopt this philosophy. It's called "Who Cares What You Think?" These days, if someone doesn't like what someone else thinks, then name calling ensues. I get indirectly called "no better than a terrorist" because I advocate standing up to criminals.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I understand defending yourself. 

I don’t understand shooting someone over a possession. 

Yes, I realize the two are interrelated. If someone draws down on you and you’re armed, you are entitled (obligated) to defend yourself. I’d do the same thing. 

But, if some asshole knocks me off my bike riding down the street, gets on it and pedals away, no, I’m not going to put two in his back. I’d hope most people would understand that, in that scenario, they are not judge, jury and executioner. 

I realize the law is different across the states as it pertains to defense of property. But, if people believe in the rule of law, taking it into their own hands is more than a bit hypocritical. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DeadGrandpa said:


> So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist? FYI, there are people in my area who complied 100 percent with an armed person demanding money, etc, and they were still shot. One was running away after giving up wallet and phone. The other was standing behind the convenience store counter, murdered after handing over all the money. And yet, some people who live in the area advocate for the dissolution of the police department.
> 
> If a person expresses to me a desire to own a bike, and the genuineness of his appeal to me seems true, I will give him a bike. In fact, I did exactly that some months ago for a guy I'd just met while on my ride one day. It wasn't a beat up hand me down. It was a NOS entry level Trek hybrid.
> 
> ...


The "Die Hard" complex.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> I understand defending yourself.
> 
> I don't understand shooting someone over a possession.
> 
> ...


 At least in most midwest states the law is pretty specific. You can use lethal force (which includes the act of pointing a knife or firearm) to defend against murder, serious bodily harm (broken bone), kidnapping or rape of yourself or another. I've watched some seemingly cut and dry cases go to trial and run up $20-$40K attorney bills. Even the guy who shot an armed man at Walgreens (decedent was robbing the place with a pump shotgun) who didn't get charged ended up with a couple thousand dollar bill. I'm not saying you can't find justification, I'm just saying that you want to think really hard before you commit to that action.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

DeadGrandpa said:


> So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist?


I don't recall anyone anywhere in this thread proposing that you don't have the right to defend yourself with whatever means happen to be at your disposal, including lethal force, if you reasonably perceive that your life is in danger. Certainly that would be true if the proposed miscreant was armed, but might also include the situation where he/she was larger than you or if there was more than one of them. In that circumstance...fire away. I would. On the other hand, a guy grabs your bike while you're taking a leak, or knocks you off it, hops on and scoots away while you're trying to get your gun out of your camelback...you're not in danger anymore as he's pedaling down the trail on his new bike. You can't shoot him.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> I don't recall anyone anywhere in this thread proposing that you don't have the right to defend yourself with whatever means happen to be at your disposal, including lethal force, if you reasonably perceive that your life is in danger. Certainly that would be true if the proposed miscreant was armed, but might also include the situation where he/she was larger than you or if there was more than one of them. In that circumstance...fire away. I would. On the other hand, a guy grabs your bike while you're taking a leak, or knocks you off it, hops on and scoots away while you're trying to get your gun out of your camelback...*you're not in danger anymore as he's pedaling down the trail on his new bike. You can't shoot him.*


Nobody is saying that they would do this either. 
The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
_Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist._" Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ducman said:


> Nobody is saying that they would do this either.
> The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
> _Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist._" Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts


I'm not walking that statement back. Clarifying my opinion is not taking something back.

If you murder* someone over a BICYCLE, you are a pretty shitty human being.

*Yes, you could be tried and convicted for murder in most states for using lethal force to defend a possession when not in any mortal danger yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not walking that statement back. Clarifying my opinion is not taking something back.
> 
> If you murder someone over a BICYCLE, you are a pretty shitty human being.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Ducman said:


> Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.


A murderer and a murderer. Regardless of their motivation, they are still the same thing.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> A murderer and a murderer. Regardless of their motivation, they are still the same thing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tuckerjt07 said:


> No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Since when has our legal system made any sense?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Since when has our legal system made any sense?


In this it does.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tuckerjt07 said:


> In this it does.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Not necessarily, but that's a whole other can of worms.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I get that.

But at the end of the day, when the jury went through the charges, they'd list a charge with murder at the end of it, and you'd be guilty. And your rap sheet would still have the word "murder" on it.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I get that.
> 
> But at the end of the day, when the jury went through the charges, they'd list a charge with murder at the end of it, and you'd be guilty. And your rap sheet would still have the word "murder" on it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but what degree it is listed as significantly impacts how the rest of one's life post incarceration, if there is a post, is lived. The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Not necessarily, but that's a whole other can of worms.


It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.

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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Ducman said:


> *Nobody is saying that they would do this either.
> *The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
> _Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist._" Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts


 Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...



> Unlike the police, there are no constitutional constraints on my use of deadly force. I'm not going to sit around and try to decide how immediate the threat is. The law of self defense requires no such assessment under these circumstances.
> 
> A person who is trying to steal my bike from my person is committing a crime against my person, not just my bike. I have insurance for the bike and I don't give a rat's ass about the bike. But I'm not going to give someone an opportunity to use violence against me for a piece of property, either. That absolutely is not happening while I have the means to resist.


I'm assuming that LeDuke is making a distinction between defending his life and defending his bicycle.

I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cuyuna said:


> Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...
> 
> I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.


I agree with what you're saying. If the guy says give me that bike, knocks you down, hops on the bike and pedals like mad to get away there is no need. The laws that have property protection as an immunity clause are double edged swords. They open up the possibility of a vigilante much more but they also offer great protection. If the guy above knocks you down and menaces over you you have a right to be fearful. In that instance property protection laws protect you from the thousands of dollars you'd spend justifying that fear.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Ducman said:


> Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.


Yeah.. it really is:

"You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren't much better than a terrorist."

If you're defending yourself - you're putting someone down over your life.

If you put someone down over a bike - you aren't defending yourself, you're defending your bike.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...
> 
> I'm assuming that LeDuke is making a distinction between defending his life and defending his bicycle.
> 
> I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.


You are correct.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife


2nd degree murder.



tuckerjt07 said:


> will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck


Not murder. Negligent homicide or manslaughter.



tuckerjt07 said:


> than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.


1st degree murder.

Murder requires malice aforethought - whether that premeditated (1st degree) or intentional murder without premeditation, but with malice aforethought (2nd degree).

It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Yes, but what degree it is listed as significantly impacts how the rest of one's life post incarceration, if there is a post, is lived. The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.
> 
> It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I get that there are differences in the stages and because of that there are differences in the penalty. But who's to say the penalties are written fairly from one scenario to the other. I agree that the scenarios should be viewed differently and the penalties should be different. It's the penalty phase I have an issue with. Some get a slap on the wrist and sent home, others get life depending on the scenario.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I get that there are differences in the stages and because of that there are differences in the penalty. But who's to say the penalties are written fairly from one scenario to the other. I agree that the scenarios should be viewed differently and the penalties should be different. It's the penalty phase I have an issue with. Some get a slap on the wrist and sent home, others get life depending on the scenario.


A lot of that has to do with recidivism. Are some people unfairly caught up in it for any number of reasons, absolutely.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

tuckerjt07 said:


> A lot of that has to do with recidivism. Are some people unfairly caught up in it for any number of reasons, absolutely.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


True


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## Soysauce (Jul 23, 2018)

One time on my sretch if traips there was a spree of people putting barb wire in the trails. I font know why but it got me and others very angry.


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This is precisely why I am a former sidearm carrier turned anti-CC laws. I was in the first group of people to get their concealed carry license in my state when it was legalized, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable the amount of people I know with their CC license who don't take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously. I can't count how many times I have heard people make offhand comments about just shooting someone for any discomfort they may feel, or being completely unrealistic about how a situation may go down if they actually had to pull their gun.
> 
> Honestly, I would have been better off NOT going through the class and finding out from experience the mental weight of carrying a firearm. It terrifies me that just about anyone with no serious criminal record could potentially carry a gun into the woods and start ripping off wild shots at someone who they think is a bike thief. Same for anywhere else; restaurants, Target, etc. I have been to the shooting range enough times to know that if a criminal starts mowing people down in public, 99.9% of the population (even if they have a CC permit) have no business trying to equalize the situation.


Amen brother - couldn't have said it better. I grew up around guns my entire life, family and family friends. None of which carry regularly outside of remote camping/hiking due to animal threats. None of which would ever engage over property. None of which brandish to intimidate.

All of which think the gun 'culture' that is promoted now is nothing short of a massive danger to society.

I had (2) close relatives in the same situation as you, took the CCW class and decided NOT to carry because of it.....too much liability, too much risk.

Of the few folks I know now that carry and have assault weapons, none of them grew up around guns and frankly don't know &$*% about them - the last people we need 'shooting' criminals.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> One of his humorous routines is when we enter a doctor, dentist or haircut appointment his first comment after checking in is, "alright let's sit down and read some expired old magazines".


I'm wondering if he secretly enjoys this finding some so old they pre-date Fake News !!
Not a bad byproduct of old days journalism.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> I understand defending yourself.
> 
> I don't understand shooting someone over a possession.
> 
> ...


I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what it comes down to.

Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bachman1961 said:


> I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what is comes down to.
> 
> Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
> I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.


The thing that gets me is this:

Once that example is set, how much time can elapse before you aren't legally allowed to shoot someone?

Can someone gun down a person that threatened them the previous day? Last week? Their high school bully, 20 years later?

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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> The thing that gets me is this:
> 
> Once that example is set, how much time can elapse before you aren't legally allowed to shoot someone?
> 
> ...


Exactly. It sets a precedence there is no line in the sand.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's not kosher without saying it like this, Lonnnnn ga Island.


Lawng eyelind da


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Picard said:


> well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.


Machine guns! Tommy guns too, I've read.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

bachman1961 said:


> I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what is comes down to.
> 
> Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
> I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.


Interesting case.... here is a little more detail
https://www.denverpost.com/2005/12/15/man-found-not-guilty-in-slaying/


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Picard said:


> well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.


The decision on when and how to use it is what really counts.

Knowing the law and the local temperament helps too but if you hang your hat on recent crime sprees locally and thinking local jurists will be extra tolerant in the case of lethal force, it may very well fall to the letter of the law and you'd be wise to act accordingly.

When that house tenant beat-down occurred, we'd been through a few year cycle of some " justified shootin' " in the headlines frequently. Deadly road rage dual along side the highway, two trucks pull off to the side, one guy shoots first the other takes cover behind the door and fires the lethal shot. 
80-some year old lady gets her door kicked in, shoots and kills the intruder. Hits him 5 times. He'd been randomly breaking into homes assaulting women and robbing the property.

In those days, I'll admit I was loving the reputation this area was getting. I can't speak to crime rate, it may have not been remarkable for the population here but I sure liked the idea that the shooting wasn't sloppy or ill advised. 
Maybe it isn't necessarily a big deterrent but anything justified is Shoot To Stop and it was happening for the betterment of our town.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Bacon Fat said:


> Interesting case.... here is a little more detail
> https://www.denverpost.com/2005/12/15/man-found-not-guilty-in-slaying/


Thank you for the search. 
I hope my purposeful vague summary was the general gist of it.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

So wait, was the defendant (shooter) actually beaten or not? The article says the prosecution said he wasn't.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Picard said:


> well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.


Yep, pack an UZI on my road bike.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

the one ring said:


> So wait, was the defendant (shooter) actually beaten or not? The article says the prosecution said he wasn't.


The "facts" change depending on what article you read about the case. But this was the only one that quoted the prosecutor stating that.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> Back to the original topic, has any of this armed robbery/rape/murder type stuff happened to mountain bikers out riding trails? When and where?
> 
> The OP hasn't replied where his or her incident happened. I'd still like to know.


I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.

Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.

Two guys showed up. They both had shaved heads and large swastikas on the stomachs. They started breaking Budweiser bottles on rocks above the main swim area. One of the old hippies that frequents the spot questioned them. They told him they were going to kill him. While he was talking to them, he was sitting Indian style. Behind him was one of the guys with a raised bowling ball sized rock ready to bludgeon the hippy.

I already had my hand in my pack. Once the guy got into a stance to crush the hippies head , I stood up ad and aimed at the guy's head and told him if he dropped the rock on the hippies head, I was dropping him. I was committed to killing both of them based on their behavior. They came to their senses when I reminded them they were miles from phone service.

They left within ten minutes to hike out before dark.. My friend was also carrying and did nothing. I learned right there he wasn't a sheep dog.

This was around 15 years ago.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I've started carrying bear spray. Yes, there are bears on my trails, but also homeless whacks living along bike paths and in the National Forest. I figure it might give me 30 seconds to get out of there. 

There was a mountain biker murdered SW of Denver/NW of Colorado Springs last year. No suspects, but the area is plagued with homeless camps. These aren't warm fuzzy drunks, they are hardcore transients taking advantage of society in every way they can.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

No bears in my trails (mountain lions, though), and not too many trails venture through areas of sketchy human activity.

That said, several trail networks skirt rural areas where dogs run free, including "pit bull" breeds. Fortunately, in my only 2 encounters with such dogs, they were sweethearts. I rescued one of them that was clearly abandoned in a fairly remote location; she wouldn't leave my side as I was loading up the car and kept forcing her way into the car whenever I opened a door. I have yet to run into a pack of dogs (any breed) but I think that would be my primary motivation for carrying pepper / bear spray in my area.

Then there's this: Rescuers get robbed at gunpoint trying to help dehydrated PCT hiker. Middle of the freaking Mojave desert and 110F. I just hiked that section this year and thought about this story quite a bit when preparing, but ultimately didn't carry any pepper spray because we "hiked with the herd" (dozens of through-hikers) and figured the risk of such an encounter was pretty low.


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

the one ring said:


> No bears in my trails (mountain lions, though), and not too many trails venture through areas of sketchy human activity.
> 
> That said, several trail networks skirt rural areas where dogs run free, including "pit bull" breeds. Fortunately, in my only 2 encounters with such dogs, they were sweethearts. I rescued one of them that was clearly abandoned in a fairly remote location; she wouldn't leave my side as I was loading up the car and kept forcing her way into the car whenever I opened a door. I have yet to run into a pack of dogs (any breed) but I think that would be my primary motivation for carrying pepper / bear spray in my area.
> 
> Then there's this: Rescuers get robbed at gunpoint trying to help dehydrated PCT hiker. Middle of the freaking Mojave desert and 110F. I just hiked that section this year and thought about this story quite a bit when preparing, but ultimately didn't carry any pepper spray because we "hiked with the herd" (dozens of through-hikers) and figured the risk of such an encounter was pretty low.


The title of that article is a bit misleading. (2) of the rescuers got lost, went down the wrong trail into a remote area came up on some dudes (likely) doing some unsavory stuff in an area nobody was expected to be. I know drugs are a bit problem there. They were passively 'robbed' so the bad dudes had time to gather their stuff and get the hell out, rather than being robbed of their wallets and valuables.

Hiking on the actual PCT itself, with the expected traffic, I'd have 0 worries.

I thought for sure the guy that called in the rescue was the one that robbed them and/or it was a set up.

Hope those guys got caught.

*Edit - not to mention, a weapon and/or pepper spray would have likely made the situation MUCH worse. If those guys saw a handgun or were threatened, who knows how it would have ended up. They likely have much less to lose than most of us.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

ArizRider said:


> The title of that article is a bit misleading. (2) of the rescuers got lost, went down the wrong trail into a remote area came up on some dudes (likely) doing some unsavory stuff in an area nobody was expected to be. I know drugs are a bit problem there. They were passively 'robbed' so the bad dudes had time to gather their stuff and get the hell out, rather than being robbed of their wallets and valuables.
> 
> Hiking on the actual PCT itself, with the expected traffic, I'd have 0 worries.
> 
> ...


If I were a volunteer rescuer I'd probably just stay home rather than go out to that area again.

On another unpredictable note, I saw a news story of a man from this area, DC, who was killed during an armed robbery in Atlanta. The victim was with his wife and friends or other family and leaving either a club or restaurant. They called Uber and instead another car pulled up and they were all robbed at gunpoint. It is reported that the victim approached the killer and asked him if he was sure if he wanted to do this, and the killer then asked him if he wanted to die over this--andthen killed him.

Not sure how the 17 year old killer managed to do that?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Vader said:


> I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.
> 
> Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the reason you guys should carry a gun. The US is full of crazy people.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Picard said:


> The US is full of crazy people.


Nah, the U.S. ranks behind Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Bahrain in time lost for being batshit crazy.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

life behind bars said:


> Nah, the U.S. ranks behind Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Bahrain in time lost for being batshit crazy.


Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Picard said:


> Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Bullshit, you better start checking your "facts".


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Picard said:


> America is unique in the world as having crazy people.


Have you never been exposed to anything outside of your basement other than this website over the entire course of your life?

You might try paying better attention.

Or any attention for that matter.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I was living in Asia as a kid. There was no shooting of school kids at schools. My uncles serve in military during the Vietnam War and they certainly did not hear about kids or seen shooting at schools. My uncles served marines and special forces. 

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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Picard said:


> Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Switzerland has a lot of guns and low crime because of mandatory conscription. Those who have a gun have served in the military and are extensively trained. There's also only 8.5 million people there.

The US has regular shootings because we have 300,000,000 guns floating around. No other country has a presence of guns like that. There are far fewer school shooting in most other countries because gun ownership is rare elsewhere. Gun culture is uniquely American; its deep in our history and way of life, like it or not.

As they say, Lincoln made all men free, but Samuel Colt made all men equal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

edit


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

In timely news we have a "sheepdog" defending our handicapped parking spaces:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...provoked-fatal-stand-ground/story?id=56751894


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

The Swiss get to keep their military weapons at home, but not ammunition for them. Ammunition may be purchased at a shooting range but must be used there (and is actually subsidized by the government).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland?wprov=sfla1

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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Is anyone familiar with drop safety tests that are performed on modern firearms?
Do they really approximate the conditions that could occur in a mtb crash?
Landing on your gun is gonna hurt, but having it go "bang" ...


Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nat said:


> In timely news we have a "sheepdog" defending our handicapped parking spaces:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...provoked-fatal-stand-ground/story?id=56751894


Ahhh, the Steve Martin approach to solving crime. Death penalty for parking violations.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Doing the laundry is scary enough. I don't know how you guys go outside on a regular basis.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

chuckha62 said:


> Ahhh, the Steve Martin approach to solving crime. Death penalty for parking violations.


not really what happened here. He didn't shoot anyone in the car nor the person he was arguing with. The victim turned a verbal confrontation into a physical one, then the shooter turned it into a deadly one. Morally, it I think it was a bad shoot, but turns out a legal one in FL. A situation where asshole collide. Many opportunities to deescalate on both side.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Picard said:


> Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


There was zero research preformed for this post.

You get zero response.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Bacon Fat said:


> Many opportunities to deescalate on both side.


Many opportunities to avoid a situation altogether. A life lost over a parking space...


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

VTSession said:


> Switzerland has a lot of guns and low crime because of mandatory conscription. Those who have a gun have served in the military and are extensively trained. There's also only 8.5 million people there.
> 
> The US has regular shootings because we have 300,000,000 guns floating around. No other country has a presence of guns like that. There are far fewer school shooting in most other countries because gun ownership is rare elsewhere. Gun culture is uniquely American; its deep in our history and way of life, like it or not.
> 
> As they say, Lincoln made all men free, but Samuel Colt made all men equal.


Seen that number before, probably just a bit back when the US population was 300 mil and it made it easier to remember since that's a gun for every man, woman or child.

This link below is something I bumped into the other day doing some reading.... must be the average gun owner has
 *

Americans vastly overestimate the number of gun owners*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...problem/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5c0143965035


*Three percent of the population own half of the civilian guns in the US*​The Big Three - 
Another survey (OCT 2017) breaks down some numbers estimating 3% of Americans own 50% of the guns here.
Half of the gun owners have one or two.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

Picard said:


> Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


 Whaaat? You seem to forget the 1940s and even the 1910s. America has a combination of lack of mental healthcare, rights that are totally freedom biased and a culture that doesn't value protecting the innocent more than the criminal. The Swiss have the most liberal gun laws in Europe, good mental health care, manditory service in the National Guard and they don't hero worship the Timothy McVeighs of the world. Very few privately held firearms in Asia and every country you listed has way fewer laws that protect the innocent until proven guilty. You can be caned in Singapore for vandalism and put in a Japanese prison for bike theft. Not exactly an apples to pears comparison.


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Picard said:


> This is exactly the reason you guys should carry a gun. The US is full of crazy people.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Didn't something awful happen in Toronto the other day? A man named Hussain with mental health problems? How did that happen in Canada is there no laws against shooting people? Look at my avatar, I'm not crazy!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Picard said:


> Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.


Yeah...the French have always been even-tempered. "Here...take my country. Please." The Italians were even tempered "Please...can't someone make the trains run on time?". The Scaninavians were/are even tempered "Please. Don't bother us".


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Forster said:


> Whaaat? You seem to forget the 1940s and even the 1910s. America has a combination of lack of mental healthcare, rights that are totally freedom biased and a culture that doesn't value protecting the innocent more than the criminal. The Swiss have the most liberal gun laws in Europe, good mental health care, manditory service in the National Guard and they don't hero worship the Timothy McVeighs of the world. Very few privately held firearms in Asia and every country you listed has way fewer laws that protect the innocent until proven guilty. You can be caned in Singapore for vandalism and put in a Japanese prison for bike theft. Not exactly an apples to pears comparison.


When I lived in Japan, a couple of guys attempted to steal my bike. I had a chain through the wheel but it wasn't locked to anything. They were loading it onto a little dolly. I didn't know a lot of Japanese but I knew how to say "Hey! That's my bike!" They were two older guys and I'm not a big guy and I recall none of us being intimidated by the other, though often Japanese would be intimidated by a foreigner. I'm sure the fact that we didn't really have to worry about the other party having a gun helped in that regard.

That was about 20 years ago and I don't 100% remember what happened other than us all walking down toward the police station. I think they just cut out before we got there. The police were often pretty indifferent and would usually prefer to avoid any type of confrontation if they possibly could. I had a coworker who got stopped for dui and the cop let him drive home.

It took me a long time to be able to relax in the crowds I encountered in Japan. For such a packed in population, they really do have an amazingly harmonious society. There were incidents, seems I recall someone going on a stabbing spree and some poisonings, but nothing like the US.


----------



## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

EthanKasier said:


> Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry.


Very little pisses me off more than when I'm grinding up a 15% grade with my lungs burning and my heart ready to explode, than when some skinny runner comes thump, thump, thumping past me. Hopefully the police will apprehend these jokers before they bruise more egos.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Vader said:


> I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.
> 
> Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.
> 
> ...


I found this story very compelling until you mentioned a sheepdog and now I just can't take you seriously anymore.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

kpdemello said:


> I found this story very compelling until you mentioned a sheepdog and now I just can't take you seriously anymore.


Well I know which one of you I'd rather have next to me in a fight.


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## btrigo (Jul 25, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.


Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."

I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal. By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.

I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

btrigo said:


> I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions.* I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.*


I always find this rationalization amusing. So, do you take a bunch of other stuff on rides that you are *far more likely * to use than a handgun? A personal locator beacon? Bearspray? Extra food? Two extra tubes? Water filter/pump? Light jacket? Firestarter? Small stove? etc...


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Jayem said:


> I always find this rationalization amusing. So, do you take a bunch of other stuff on rides that you are *far more likely * to use than a handgun? A personal locator beacon? Bearspray? Extra food? Two extra tubes? Water filter/pump? Light jacket? Firestarter? Small stove? etc...


It really depends on your ride. If you are riding on trails in an suburban/urban area. The likelihood of needing a fire starter or small stove is going to be zero. Not everyone is doing back country rides. 
Its far more amusing that you think everyone's needs are the same as yours


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bacon Fat said:


> If you are riding on trails in an suburban/urban area. The likelihood of needing a fire starter or small stove is going to be zero.


Maybe, but still probably higher than the likelihood of needing a firearm 

Don't forget your lightening rod!


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> Didn't something awful happen in Toronto the other day? A man named Hussain with mental health problems? How did that happen in Canada is there no laws against shooting people? Look at my avatar, I'm not crazy!


Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Picard said:


> Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Not really.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Picard said:


> Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Do you think they'll let me in?


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## Coal-Cracker (May 4, 2010)

Picard said:


> Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


I was under the impression that Canada was VERY selective as to who they allowed into their country? 
Has this changed recently?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Coal-Cracker said:


> I was under the impression that Canada was VERY selective as to who they allowed into their country?
> Has this changed recently?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Well trudope is letting the same immigrants that cause havoc in Europe. Canada will let in 100 isis fighters soon.

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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Curveball said:


> Do you think they'll let me in?


Where are you located? The captain can vouch for you 

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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

btrigo said:


> Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."
> 
> I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal. By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.
> 
> I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.


Breaking into a home is very different than aggravated assault, the law says so too. I know it can vary by state, stand your ground, etc., but shooting an intruder that is trying to steal is very different than them assaulting you.

The fact that you put those two in the same sentence is scary. All the 'responsible' gun owners I know, which are unfortunately thrown into the same, conservative, pro-trump, republican pool, would agree with me. All of which understand the responsibility of owning a gun and all of which wouldn't resort to using a gun short of being personally assaulted in bed at night or by way of protecting a loved one from imminent death....last resort.

None of which would brandish a weapon to intimidate and give up their 'cards' unless they had intent to draw and fire.


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

Nat said:


> In timely news we have a "sheepdog" defending our handicapped parking spaces:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...provoked-fatal-stand-ground/story?id=56751894


That guy deserves some prison time.....pathetic. Not saying getting shoved was ok, but I don't see how they let him off that easy.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

The test has always been "Imminent threat" once the threat to your (or your family's) life has passed, you are no longer able to claim self defense. You can't chase them down and shoot them and expect to not be prosecuted.

For cops, the test is a little different, as they have to assess the continued threat going forward, i.e. if an armed person escapes, what threat do they pose to others?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

btrigo said:


> Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."
> 
> *I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal.* By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.
> 
> I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.


I agree completely. Even states without stand-your-ground laws, even states that incorporate "duty-to-retreat" don't include your home. My friend Massad Ayoob has preached for decades that use of lethal force is advisable in the case of a home break-in. Many states also include your automobile in the "home as castle" doctrine...i.e carjacking is automatically a lethal force scenario. I'm not aware, however, that the "home-as-castle" nor the "carjacking" concept applies to bicycles.

On the other hand, I have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who go out and buy a gun, stick it in their bedside drawer and now believe that they are safe, sadly thinking that they are capable of effective and appropriate use of deadly force without any additional self-defense training whatsoever (I do not include the generally laughable "training" that goes with most state-required CCW courses). _Those_ people are indeed more dangerous to themselves and their family members than they are to any potential home-invasion malefactor. I agree that they have a _right_ to own that firearm, but they're stupid and dangerous.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

ArizRider said:


> That guy deserves some prison time.....pathetic. Not saying getting shoved was ok, but I don't see how they let him off that easy.


That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.


I have a feeling this isn't over yet. Luckily, Florida still has a court system.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Bacon Fat said:


> That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.


Yes, they are.
SYG = Open season on minorities.

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## Coal-Cracker (May 4, 2010)

andytiedye said:


> Yes, they are.
> SYG = Open season on minorities.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


Could you elaborate?

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cuyuna said:


> My friend Massad Ayoob has preached for decades


He wouldn't happen to be a former Colonel in the Mossad would he?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Jayem said:


> He wouldn't happen to be a former Colonel in the Mossad would he?


Kinderguardian?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> In timely news we have a "sheepdog" defending our handicapped parking spaces:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...provoked-fatal-stand-ground/story?id=56751894


http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/make-my-day-law-1042003.html


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## RadBartTaylor (Dec 1, 2004)

Bacon Fat said:


> That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.


Thats the law?....still being debated...


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

ArizRider said:


> Thats the law?....still being debated...


 Law in Florida since 2005. Many states without stand your ground laws still leave that option upto a jury or judge do to other caveats in their use of force law. Nebraska has both duty to retreat and lesser of evils type leglislation, but if you can't reasonably retreat without risking the type of harm that would justify using lethal force the option remains legally open (if not terribly practicle in all cases). For example, you can't flee the building your in (home and primary workplace have different rules) due to safety concerns (exposure to a more dangerous situation, you can't out run the bad guys, you're concerned about more bad guys). In those situations you can argue (probably in court) that you had no choice. Some guy flips you off in traffic and you get out and start blasting, it's going to be pretty hard to suggest you couldn't have driven away. My thought has always been "Is someone's life in danger?" If the answer is no, it's probably not worth getting into a gunfight. Either on the street or the courtroom.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/make-my-day-law-1042003.html


That was Oklahoma, not Florida, and it's not a Stand Your Ground law, it's a home-as-castle law basically an affirmation that when confronted by an intruder, you don't have a duty to retreat in your home, your car, or your business and that lethal force is permitted. The kid in this scenario was judged as justifiable self defense and he is therefore immune from both criminal and civil prosectution.


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## djlee (Feb 5, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> That was Oklahoma, not Florida, and it's not a Stand Your Ground law, it's a home-as-castle law basically an affirmation that when confronted by an intruder, you don't have a duty to retreat in your home, your car, or your business and that lethal force is permitted. The kid in this scenario was judged as justifiable self defense and he is therefore immune from both criminal and civil prosectution.


1. Much respect for LEOs.

2. An honest question - If the woman in the Florida shooting (referenced above) had felt threatened, as she was in her car and the man walked across the parking lot to start the confrontation with her, would she have been justified if she shot him? Assuming she was a legal CCW, of course.

BTW, I am not saying I agree with anything at all about the Florida shooting. Very bad behavior on all sides.


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Reading this thread made me think if a news recent news story that made me think a bit.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/video/3718135-firefighter-fatally-shoots-carjacking-teen/

Off duty fire fighter leaves his Jeep running, some kid jumps in and steals it, same off duty fire fighter is carrying, unloads on the kid and kills him.

He basically killed him because he stole his Jeep. Was it justified? Tough call. Firefighter claimed he feared getting run over. In reality, it was probably a quick decision he made because he had a gun on his hip.

I can understand killing a home intruder because that can be seen as an obvious deadly threat but a car thief? Sounds like the same territory as a mountain bike thief.

If the fire fighter decides not to pull his gun, he calls the cops, they do their job and insurance takes care of his Jeep. But then again who knows how you'll react in the heat of the moment? It's obvious that the fact he was carrying made it more likely for him to settle the situation himself by shooting the kid. I'm not defending the car thief or the shooter but its a divisive conundrum for sure.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Guys stealing your jeep and driving away are not a threat to your life. If your kid is in back it's different. If you're in the car and they're pointing a gun at you it's different. But they're driving away in your car and you kill them, well that's just murder. You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Forster said:


> You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.


That's what caused Florida to jump the shark with having to prove SYG doesn't apply before the case can be brought to trial. It's a tricky one for me as I hold to the same line of thinking as Sir William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".

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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Forster said:


> *Guys stealing your jeep and driving away are not a threat to your life.* If your kid is in back it's different. If you're in the car and they're pointing a gun at you it's different. But they're driving away in your car and you kill them, well that's just murder. You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.


He was driving at the shooter. And that is why the shooter wasn't charged.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2018)

Bacon Fat said:


> He was driving at the shooter. And that is why the shooter wasn't charged.


 I wasn't quoting the article, just making a rethorical argument. If a car if driving toward you with the intent of running you over that represents a life-threatening event.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

djlee said:


> 1. Much respect for LEOs.
> 
> 2. An honest question - If the woman in the Florida shooting (referenced above) had felt threatened, as she was in her car and *the man walked across the parking lot to start the confrontation with her, would she have been justified if she shot him*? Assuming she was a legal CCW, of course.


After he had just killed her boyfriend...? As I read Florida's SYG law...absolutely.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

chuckha62 said:


> The test has always been "Imminent threat" once the threat to your (or your family's) life has passed, you are no longer able to claim self defense. You can't chase them down and shoot them and expect to not be prosecuted.
> 
> For cops, the test is a little different, as they have to assess the continued threat going forward, i.e. if an armed person escapes, what threat do they pose to others?


The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person _reasonably feared _an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks. The problem with a lot of these situations isn't that the person had a fear, the problem is that juries have been unwilling, on the available evidence, to tell these people that their fear was not reasonable.

While the law can differ a lot between states, I'm not aware of one that would remove the right to self defense from a person who reasonably feared some sort of immediate/imminent threat to life or serious injury just because that fear was _reasonable, _but mistaken.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Well I know which one of you I'd rather have next to me in a fight.


I assume you mean me, because I would brandish insults that would cause the opponents deep psychological pain that could last a lifetime.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person _reasonably feared _an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks. The problem with a lot of these situations isn't that the person had a fear, the problem is that juries have been unwilling, on the available evidence, to tell these people that their fear was not reasonable.
> 
> While the law can differ a lot between states, I'm not aware of one that would remove the right to self defense from a person who reasonably feared some sort of immediate/imminent threat to life or serious injury just because that fear was _reasonable, _but mistaken.


Makes me afraid to move to Florida. Which I guess means that if I did, I can just go ahead and start mowing everyone down.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person _reasonably feared _an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks.


This is correct...not imminent threat but fear that a "reasonable person" might have that their life was in danger. In the vast majority of states, an intruder in one's home is considered to automatically represent a cause for "reasonable fear" justifying lethal force and absolves one of the "duty to retreat" from such an event. Most states extend that to your car or place of business, and some states, the so-called "stand your ground" or"castle doctrine" states, extend that to pretty much anywhere.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Makes me afraid to move to Florida. Which I guess means that if I did, I can just go ahead and start mowing everyone down.


Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be _much_ safer.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Cuyuna said:


> Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be _much_ safer.


And Indiana, which is about 35 minutes from the south side, does not.

The vast majority of Chicago is safe from those who take advantage of Indiana's laws.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Cuyuna said:


> Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be _much_ safer.


Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be _much_ safer.


My point was that from what has been posted about Florida's laws, it is "shoot first, ask questions later". Of course if you just killed the person, they're not around to ask. I understand someone's right to defend themselves but this just pushes it into have your gun ready and shoot and then decide if it was a real threat. Like when a guy pushes you down because you are harassing his girlfriend and is then backing away. What someone asked you earlier was not if the woman could shoot the guy after he shot her boyfriend; it was could she have shot the guy when he approached her to tell her she shouldn't park there, assuming she legally carried. And that is one of the issues with carrying a gun, making a split second decision that someone's life is dependent on. Great if you save your life, sucks if you kill an innocent person. I think this happens a lot with the police, they panic and kill someone because they did not have the time to make a rational decision.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.


no its not


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.


:lol:


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Picard said:


> Where are you located? The captain can vouch for you
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Just south of Vancouver. I've had it with this country. Too many guns.

Plus I have a craving for Canadian maple syrup and Tim Horton's doughnuts.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> My point was that from what has been posted about Florida's laws, it is "shoot first, ask questions later". Of course if you just killed the person, they're not around to ask. I understand someone's right to defend themselves but this just pushes it into have your gun ready and shoot and then decide if it was a real threat. Like when a guy pushes you down because you are harassing his girlfriend and is then backing away. What someone asked you earlier was not if the woman could shoot the guy after he shot her boyfriend; it was could she have shot the guy when he approached her to tell her she shouldn't park there, assuming she legally carried. And that is one of the issues with carrying a gun, making a split second decision that someone's life is dependent on. Great if you save your life, sucks if you kill an innocent person. I think this happens a lot with the police, they panic and kill someone because they did not have the time to make a rational decision.


Did you use anything other than that anecdote to form your opinion? Like...data?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Makes me afraid to move to Florida.


Me too. Because snakes and old drivers.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

life behind bars said:


> Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.


I'd feel safer in Baghdad.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Curveball said:


> I'd feel safer in Baghdad.


Explain.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Explain.


I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.

All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Curveball said:


> I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.
> 
> All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.


Neither place has any mountains, probably not much in the way of mountain biking trails either.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Did you use anything other than that anecdote to form your opinion? Like...data?


What, that cops sometimes panic and kill someone they shouldn't have?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Bacon Fat said:


> no its not
> 
> View attachment 1209867


i grew up in west humboldt park and K town. Yikes! We moved when I was 12, after my best friend saw 4 guys smoked in front of the building they lived in, and the play ground by our school became a gang banger paradise-with same friend when a car pulls up at that play ground and shotguns a guy to death.

I was in Texas for the summer and when I returned home my mom had moved us.

but nowadays you have the aclu consent decree to make the streets safe for murderers.

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Curveball said:


> I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.
> 
> All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.


You are right, ISIS loves Americans.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Jayem said:


> You are right, ISIS loves Americans.


If only they'd stuck to Square Taper...


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Jayem said:


> You are right, ISIS loves Americans.


As Le Duke could probably tell you, ISIS isn't present in Baghdad. FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Curveball said:


> As Le Duke could probably tell you, ISIS isn't present in Baghdad. FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.


Ain't never been to Baghdad. Heard it was nice until the invasion, though. OLD city. Lots of history there. I would've loved to have visited before the Iran-Iraq war. Same with Iran, actually.

Most terrorist organizations are gang-like in nature. Think of a Chicago or NY street gang in the 1920s and you have a good picture. They do the same things. Extortion and protection, drug production and running, local government and police corruption, etc.

In AFG, we feared the local police as much as the "Taliban" (there are dozens of orgs that are just as likely to shoot each other as Americans there). You never knew if one or the entire organization was corrupt. Right after I left, one policeman supposedly helped with a failed attempt to kill the provincial governor. Another police station we visited stopped selling weed to the "Taliban" and got whacked, to a man.

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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Curveball said:


> FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.


ISIS would just make it more "interesting."


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.


_At least 72 shot, 13 killed in Chicago over violent summer weekend, police department says
_

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-leaves-71-shot-11-dead-weekend/914141002/


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2018)

Cuyuna said:


> _At least 72 shot, 13 killed in Chicago over violent summer weekend, police department says
> _
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nce-leaves-71-shot-11-dead-weekend/914141002/


 Sure, but none of those were mountain bikers on trails so we'd be safe. Right?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Forster said:


> Sure, but none of those were mountain bikers on trails so we'd be safe. Right?


I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers _on trails_ somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2018)

Nat said:


> I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers _on trails_ somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.


 Sure, but it never hurts to try and stay on topic. Just my rebellious nature perhaps. If only there were a website where people could talk about guns without the pesky mountain biking getting in the way.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Trying to hijack my trail machine would end very, very poorly for the hijackers. Don't start no ****, won't be no ****.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

And now we seem to have come full circle. It's akin to finding the end of the internet.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers _on trails_ somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.


Huh? We're still on page 4 Pilgrim.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Huh? We're still on page 4 Pilgrim.


They might have the default page view still set on their control panel and thus may not have as many posts per page, so they could be on page 10 or more.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

This one has a lot of legs left no one has mentioned explosive anti theft devices or impulse lasers yet.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

This is one of the reasons none of my bike have quick release seat post clamps. If you don't have a 35" inseam, you aren't riding my bike.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Huh? We're still on page 4 Pilgrim.


I'm on page 8. Catch up, DJ!

I case you want a synopsis: "I would kill until dead anyone who messes with me or my family!" Repeat.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

NYrr496 said:


> This is one of the reasons none of my bike have quick release seat post clamps. If you don't have a 35" inseam, you aren't riding my bike.


Not unless I (or a thief) steal someone's dropper post and replace it with your post.

The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Scott O said:


> Not unless I (or a thief) steal someone's dropper post and replace it with your post.
> 
> The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?


It's never happened around here and I can't imagine that it would, but I have no clue as to what's going on in the OP's little corner of the mountain biking world. There are literally hundreds of mountain biking posts on this site from various parts of this country and others that describe situations that I simply can't relate to.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Scott O said:


> The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?


I asked but he or she never answered where the incident happened. A couple of people said they carry a pistol sometimes with extra magazines in case **** goes down but they never said where they live either. I think it's safe to say that the chances of needing to blast my way out of trouble in Bend, OR is so low that it's not worth carrying the extra weight of a gun.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WHALENARD said:


> I'm thinking a small potato gun that can fire dog poo baggies. Kill two birds with turds as the saying goes. Free ammo everywhere.


 Police have those bean bag stun guns. Just use those poop bags in the right size. Might want to check bag strength though, unless your looking for that sawed off shotgun effect.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions. I had a dog bark at me a few times, but the owner quickly called it close to him. I get maybe the jump from the bushed ambush thing, but even a short distance away, 99% could just pedal away from the perps? Oh wait, I had a bird watcher shuss me once. I got off the bike and she let me see baby owls through her spotting scope.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

leeboh said:


> Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions. I had a dog bark at me a few times, but the owner quickly called it close to him. I get maybe the jump from the bushed ambush thing, but even a short distance away, 99% could just pedal away form the perps? Oh wait, I had a bird watcher shuss me once. I got off the bike and she let me see baby owls through her spotting scope.


The truth is that almost all trails are like this. A lot of my local trails are in urban areas, most of them in the hood. Hood rats don't generally go exploring through the forest for someone to rob or kill. Gun fanatics just like to pretend that every situation has the potential to become the wild west. I know this because I have a lot of friends who got the concealed carry license and all of the sudden their world went from mundane and generally safe to "things could pop off at any moment". Guys I grew up with who never thought twice about anything ever happening now all of the sudden have to be seated in a restaurant where they can see the exits and plan escape routes.

It's a sickness. I used to consider myself a gun enthusiast, but after the 2008 Obama scare the gun community lost their collective minds. I can't even stand to be around these people anymore, everything is politicized and they think the world is coming for them. It's really weird.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> I'm on page 8. Catch up, DJ!
> 
> I case you want a synopsis: "I would kill until dead anyone who messes with me or my family!" Repeat.


Nope, still on page 4 on my end. Even after the 10 posts since our original apposing views.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

If someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so I'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

the one ring said:


> if someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so i'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.


hahahahahahaha


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions.


Funny thing is, probably the sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was in your 'hood (Harold Parker forest). This after many years of riding in and through a mid-sized city at all hours of the day and night and not doing much to avoid 'bad' areas or out of the way places where I got so see all sorts of denizens doing shady things. A couple of guys had set up for a day of drinking at a bridge with a few boxes of cheap beer and an aggressive dog. They physically blocked me from crossing the bridge and started what I took as a verbal 'feeling out' process to see how far they were going to push things with me. Both had a very distinctive ex-con/homeless flavor to them; I assume that they were probably living at the campground not too far away. After a few minutes of grilling, I ended being 'allowed' to pass. Probably the single time I really wished I was armed while riding. To this day, I'm sure if I was a female (or male who came across as an easy target), bad things would have happened. That's not a feeling I get a whole lot; I'm not exactly a shrinking violet or anything.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

the one ring said:


> If someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so I'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.


NICE. 

This is good reason to ride the un-tuned POS that barely shifts, has screechy brakes and 7 psi divided by two tires. (Just a few of my bikes).


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Scott O said:


> The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?


I dunno- It's a big world out there all the sudden. 
Just got back from a mini vacation and I witnessed a person helping a motorist change a tire and another person helping an elder cross a busy road.

Never been so dang happy to get back home in my LIFE .


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

What I got from this so far is the only spot reported semi dangerous (where this **** might happen) is some where in N. E. parts, near a city. having come from Reno NV riding /hiking and camping on USFS land was norm. Lots of interesting folks but no trouble. Now 25 years in this metropolis referred to as South Florida, most of the great riding is in-the-middle of town. Never saw bike thieves on the trails, but this thread has popped into mind a couple of times while trying to make flow during last light in MarkhamPark. Lets all hope it stays simply a topic of conversation, with no real impact on our trail time.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> The truth is that almost all trails are like this. A lot of my local trails are in urban areas, most of them in the hood. Hood rats don't generally go exploring through the forest for someone to rob or kill. Gun fanatics just like to pretend that every situation has the potential to become the wild west. I know this because I have a lot of friends who got the concealed carry license and all of the sudden their world went from mundane and generally safe to "things could pop off at any moment". Guys I grew up with who never thought twice about anything ever happening now all of the sudden have to be seated in a restaurant where they can see the exits and plan escape routes.
> 
> It's a sickness. I used to consider myself a gun enthusiast, but after the 2008 Obama scare the gun community lost their collective minds. I can't even stand to be around these people anymore, everything is politicized and they think the world is coming for them. It's really weird.


The truth is that a defensive encounter is a low probability, high impact event. It's in the same class as a high speed car wreck, catastrophic home damage, or cancer diagnosis. For those we have seatbelts and airbags, homeowners insurance, and health insurance. I agree it's not good to be obsessed with self defense but carrying a pistol is not out of line with any of the other risk management strategies.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

The sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was when I met a paranoid 2nd Amendment type who had his gun out at the trailhead waving it around. This was in Northern Idaho near Hayden Lake back when the Aryan Nations compound was still there.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Nat said:


> The sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was when I met a paranoid 2nd Amendment type who had his gun out at the trailhead waving it around. This was in Northern Idaho near Hayden Lake back when the Aryan Nations compound was still there.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

^^^ So you're in a position to know what he experienced? Really?


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

That's pretty crazy.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

This is exactly why I carry a shark that shoot lasers out of its eyes in my hydration pack.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Curveball said:


> This is exactly why I carry a shark that shoot lasers out of its eyes in my hydration pack.


Damn, you must have the last of the production run. I had to settle for ill-tempered sea bass.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

chuckha62 said:


> ^^^ So you're in a position to know what he experienced? Really?


Yeah! What does he know?

I even wrote about it twelve years ago so I don't think I'll ever forget about it: http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/most-afraid-riding-alone-167839.html#post1607856


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

I find it amusing how the story morphed from a crazy guy with a pistol to a general smear with the "2nd amendment type" comment.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

But Hillary’s emails!


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Schulze said:


> I find it amusing how the story morphed from a crazy guy with a pistol to a general smear with the "2nd amendment type" comment.


I mean sketchy people with guns would be scary but we all know it ain't the gun. 

Over in CO and C Springs (quite representative of gun numbers) I've not had any such sketchy gun related encounter, yet I put gun numbers here beyond country per capita average and the sketchy population within some 'norm' or higher with our 600,000 citizens. :thumbsup:

Until quite recently, the available shooting areas in the 'woods' were numerous and mostly curtailed due to trashy leftovers and lack of responsible care and clean-up.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

bachman1961 said:


> I mean sketchy people with guns would be scary but we all know it ain't the gun.
> 
> Over in CO and C Springs (quite representative of gun numbers) I've not had any such sketchy gun related encounter, yet I put gun numbers here beyond country per capita average and the sketchy population within some 'norm' or higher with our 600,000 citizens. :thumbsup:
> 
> Until quite recently, the available shooting areas in the 'woods' were numerous and mostly curtailed due to trashy leftovers and lack of responsible care and clean-up.


Well, our NF does have almost twice as many firearm related incidents as the next closest NF.

I'm really surprised there aren't more people killed here each year. PFC Snuffy and his friends drive their 21.9% APR F250 up Gold Camp or Rampart Range or Mount Herman and start popping off with their Glock. And ignore what their platoon sergeant and first sergeant were trying to explain before their last day at the range.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Schulze said:


> The truth is that a defensive encounter is a low probability, high impact event. It's in the same class as a high speed car wreck, catastrophic home damage, or cancer diagnosis. For those we have seatbelts and airbags, homeowners insurance, and health insurance. I agree it's not good to be obsessed with self defense but carrying a pistol is not out of line with any of the other risk management strategies.


Like fire extinguishers in your frame-bag.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Jayem said:


> Like fire extinguishers in your frame-bag.


I vote for the fire extinguisher.
We're much more likely to encounter a fire than a bike jacker on the trail.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Schulze said:


> I find it amusing how the story morphed from a crazy guy with a pistol to a general smear with the "2nd amendment type" comment.


It's becoming the norm.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Back a few posts, the phrase sketchy people with a gun rang a bell in my head. 
Years ago, I was at this crappy hospital in Brooklyn, NY doing preventive maintenance on the emergency generators. One of the guys who worked there, I think he was a painter, walked to a nearby park during his lunch break. He encountered a group of kids that I think were around thirteen or fourteen. They had a gun and kept daring one of the kids to shoot him in the ass. The kid did it. 
I remember thinking man, there is nothing scarier than someone with a gun who doesn't have the mindset to handle it responsibly.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

NYrr496 said:


> there is nothing scarier than someone with a gun who doesn't have the mindset to handle it responsibly.


I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Nat said:


> I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


That's an excellent point. I can't imagine anyone saying that. I can say this, however...
I know/knew a whole bunch of people who were business owners who all carried guns and you would have never known. No one ever pulled theirs out and waved it around. The few of us that were close would show each other a new gun or holster that made a better or safer carry. I even had a range in my shop. To this day I'm not sure if it was legal to do that or not but it was only for us inside a locked building on private property. No one ever knew it was there.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Jayem said:


> Like fire extinguishers in your frame-bag.


Better throw a welder in there too. Never know when your frame is going to break... You may run into a situation where your frame breaks right as some guy is trying to steal your bike. You'd have to shoot him, then weld your frame up real quick and get out of the woods. IT COULD HAPPEN.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Nat said:


> I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


Freedom is scary.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


Everyone thinks they are an excellent driver too.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2018)

Nat said:


> I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


 I'll tack this on to Le Duke's comments. The most difficult students in CCW classes (back when I taught) were 1. Former or current military who weren't firearms instructors and 2. Old good-ole boys. The first because they "already know" what you're trying to teach them and the second because they're planning on pointing a gun at anything threatening. My rules were pretty simple and specific but at least once a class I'd have someone explain "the law" to me and about once every three classes I'd pull someone off the range for a safety violation. I did have several students complete the class but indicate they didn't feel they could carry and meet all the letter of the law requirements so they weren't getting their permit. I'd also usually have someone who I "disqualified from class" for some reason prior to the class who threatened to sue me. (i.e. you can't bring two .45s strapped to your ankles, you can't shoot a 10" barreled magnum from concealment, you can't openly state you won't follow the law once you have your permit...) The latter is really why I quit teaching the course, but if I could teach firearms safety from "never held a pistol" to "CCW" I'd probably go back and try again. It's too unpredictable to start every class with 10 strangers and hope they don't shoot you in the back by accident.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

NYrr496 said:


> That's an excellent point. I can't imagine anyone saying that. I can say this, however...
> I know/knew a whole bunch of people who were business owners who all carried guns and you would have never known. No one ever pulled theirs out and waved it around. The few of us that were close would show each other a new gun or holster that made a better or safer carry. I even had a range in my shop. To this day I'm not sure if it was legal to do that or not but it was only for us inside a locked building on private property. No one ever knew it was there.


If you think about it, our biggest problem is our total saturation with guns, if it was like regulating something where you had to prove your mental capacity to do it, we might have much less in circulation, but all of these guns used to do bad things are generally bought legally and either used illegally, stolen, given away, sold, etc. It's the legal "law abiding gun owners" who have introduced them into the system.

That said, I have no problems with responsible people owning/carrying, I just think the requirements should be much higher. I can't go and rent an airplane and go kill a bunch of passengers with no certificates, I have to prove that I can fly to both the FAA and the rental place, pass checkrides, etc. When I have met the requirements, I can go fly a plane. This doesn't completely stop people from being killed, but it puts barriers in place that make it much harder to do so.

The idea that "I need to carry a gun when I ride because I'd much rather have one..blah blah" is just ridiculous rationalization for your Diehard complex. There are so many more likely scenarios you would encounter that I'd expect you to be towing a Bob trailer full of "stuff" before a gun. I do recognize there are some sketchy places to ride where IF you ride, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be or have a responsible gun owner with you. That gets into the whole risk vs. reward thing though. At some point the "I'm not going to be scared of riding here" gives way to the "It's just not a good idea to push my luck" mindset.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

The bad guys aren't going to follow any restrictions, so why are you trying to make it hard on the good guys? Education would be a better strategy.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Because all first world problems get solved and fixed on mtbr.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Jayem said:


> That said, I have no problems with responsible people owning/carrying, I just think the requirements should be much higher. I can't go and rent an airplane and go kill a bunch of passengers with no certificates, I have to prove that I can fly to both the FAA and the rental place, pass checkrides, etc.


Actually anyone can buy a plane, rent a spot at a small airfield, and fly it away. You seem to think that papers and documents are some sort of deterrent to someone intent on murder. Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel didn't need a driver's license to kill or injure 300 people with a truck, either.

Here are some facts:

Everyone who is not in prison can buy or create technology that can kill others.

Yes, even felons. I know you know this.

There is nothing you, any government, or any org can do about it except in very small, specific areas such as a courthouse.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Jayem said:


> That said, I have no problems with responsible people owning/carrying, I just think the requirements should be much higher. I can't go and rent an airplane and go kill a bunch of passengers with no certificates, I have to prove that I can fly to both the FAA and the rental place, pass checkrides, etc. When I have met the requirements, I can go fly a plane. This doesn't completely stop people from being killed, but it puts barriers in place that make it much harder to do so.


The difference is, you don't have a constitutional right to fly an airplane.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Everyone thinks they are an excellent driver too.


Yeah, totally. I had actually typed out something about how all car guys think they're incredible drivers but then deleted it from my post.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Everyone thinks they are an excellent driver too.


I actually think I'm a pretty mediocre driver. Although my record indicates that I'm excellent.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Nat said:


> I wonder if it's possible to find any gun owner who doesn't believe he has the mindset to handle his firearms? Can you imagine some guy saying, "I'm really not responsible enough to carry my gun?"


I'm really not motivated enough to carry the extra weight of my gun.

My guns are fairly useless because I often forget that I even have them since I don't have the time to hunt birds anymore.

And yes, they are locked away.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Curveball said:


> I'm really not motivated enough to carry the extra weight of my gun.
> 
> My guns are fairly useless because I often forget that I even have them since I don't have the time to hunt birds anymore.
> 
> And yes, they are locked away.


Same here (except for the hunting part -- I've only gone hunting once. Didn't care for it). I haven't even felt like shooting in years.

Schulze, I'm wondering where you ride that you feel the need to wear your sidearm? Do you carry on every ride?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cuyuna said:


> The difference is, you don't have a constitutional right to fly an airplane.


Well regulated, I seem to remember that's in the constitution too...


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Well regulated, I seem to remember that's in the constitution too...


The operative phrase is "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". The intent of the amendment as it was written by Madison is described by him in the Federalist Papers. The Supreme Court appears to be generally inclined to respect Madison's intent.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Forster said:


> I'll tack this on to Le Duke's comments. The most difficult students in CCW classes (back when I taught) were 1. Former or current military who weren't firearms instructors and 2. Old good-ole boys. The first because they "already know" what you're trying to teach them and the second because they're planning on pointing a gun at anything threatening. My rules were pretty simple and specific but at least once a class I'd have someone explain "the law" to me and about once every three classes I'd pull someone off the range for a safety violation. I did have several students complete the class but indicate they didn't feel they could carry and meet all the letter of the law requirements so they weren't getting their permit. I'd also usually have someone who I "disqualified from class" for some reason prior to the class who threatened to sue me. (i.e. you can't bring two .45s strapped to your ankles, you can't shoot a 10" barreled magnum from concealment, you can't openly state you won't follow the law once you have your permit...) The latter is really why I quit teaching the course, but if I could teach firearms safety from "never held a pistol" to "CCW" I'd probably go back and try again. It's too unpredictable to start every class with 10 strangers and hope they don't shoot you in the back by accident.


One of my former NCOs, before he became a platoon sergeant in a line company, was the lead sniper for our battalion. We had another SFC who was President's 100, Army Marksmanship Unit instructor, etc. He's a 1SG somewhere else now.

Both preferred to work with people who had no real experience with firearms prior to entering the military. People who were "fresh" and had no bad habits or preconceived notions about shooting. And smart people. It's a lot easier to teach a smart kid ballistics than a dumb one.

I think I fired less than 1000rds, total, during my time in the military. Of course, my job was to design, resource and facilitate training, not necessarily to do it. I'd zero my weapon, qual, and then I'd be done for the year. Maybe a stress shoot range, and I always test fired 249s and 240s with my SLs and PSG before letting soldiers on the range. I may be an "Expert" shooter, but I am hardly an expert, and have a healthy respect for firearms.

I've seen some wild **** during and after ranges. Saw a kid shooting a good 30 degrees off target during a live fire. Luckily it was 30 degrees off target in the direction away from the maneuvering element. Multiple negligent discharges inside buildings in sister companies.Machine gun fire (7.62 and .50) from another range flying directly over me and 100+ other people in our adjacent range. Range control made everyone (dozens of ranges) go black, but they kept firing until we got someone over there; a battalion was shooting with no one minding the range tower radio. Nuts. I always had at least three other people with me up there. Many officers and NCOs relieved.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, even with (ostensibly) well trained people, I plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Schulze said:


> There is nothing you, any government, or any org can do about it except in very small, specific areas such as a courthouse.


well, Australia did something about it, and it seems to be working:
https://nbcnews.com/health/health-n...-mass-shootings-new-calculations-show-n855946

However that would never happen in the US.

Anyway, this thread has gone off-topic now and will probably end up like the other gun threads, so lets just close it here. The OP never came back and I am beginning to think they were trolling everyone.


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