# Wheelset upgrade



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

So on a ride tonight I bent both wheels and I am starting to worry they aren't up for the task. I am about 6'3" and currently around 235lbs. I ride with gear and camelback and I am currently riding a 2012 Trek 4900. Wheelset is Shimano RM66 center lock alloy hubs; Bontrager AT-850 disc 32-hole rims, and it seems they aren't up to the task.

Now performance wise up til now I haven't had a problem with them...but this is my first mountain bike so I guess I just don't know better and don't know where those fall on the list of quality. I am riding single track, some hard pack some loose pack, some mud, technical, roots rocks, large logs, some small drops, etc, etc. I am trying to ride more aggressive each time but being a noob and still learning I am ramping up.

So I started reading this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-tall-riders/hub-big-guy-786162.html , and my head started to explode. I am too new to understand 90% of that. Does one of those wheelsets like the hopes + stans flows end up being like a $400 wheelset or like an $800 wheelset?

Should I buy a pre-built set or make my own custom combo? I think I should go 36 spoke right? Is a wheelset for $300-400 reasonable? Do I have no chance at that price and need to spend a lot more?

Thanks for the patience with the noob questions, I appreciate any explanations, suggestions and general schooling you can give me.


----------



## psunuc (Mar 15, 2005)

Its so cliche to say, but just search this topic. You are on a site with a plethora of info on this topic. Wheels are a common component on a mountain bike and I think just about anyone with 100+ posts has weighed in on this.

Take your time, look through all info (sometimes google is better than the search function) and make a decision based on how you are going to use the wheels vs. what your budget is. You will be shredding the trails on a solid wheelset in no time. :thumbsup:


----------



## Endothermic Cavewalker (Sep 6, 2010)

There is no need to go out and buy an expensive wheel set for your bike. Since you already have center lock hubs on your current set of wheels, chances are you also have center lock rotors too. You can either go with Shimano XT hubs laced to Mavic XM719 (32 spoke is fine) or look on eBay for a set of the Shimano XT wheel sets. Don't be fooled by the 24 spokes, they are a strong and tough wheel and they are also UST so you can run tubeless. Both of these options have center lock hubs. This way you can keep the rotors you have and won't have to buy new ones.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

Well the idea in the back of my head....which may be a poor choice so it's just an idea now...is to have this wheelset as a light duty set cause I already have spare tires that would be more bike path, pavement ride type ready and then keep my trail tires on the beefier set of wheels. Not sure though, for now it's just an idea.

A buddy of mine suggested mavic cross trails, but those are 24 spoke. And I see you said above don't worry about the XT 24 spoke either....but then I read in other threads if you are a clyde you need to look for 36 spoke wheels. So I am a little confused. I don't care too aweful much about weight or tubeless but I suppose I should keep that in mind, but I guess I want something I am confident will hold up.

I will look into these suggestions also though, thanks.


----------



## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

First off...your not a super clyde at 235# so keep that in mind. Also as mentioned in your other thread some riders destroy stuff while others do not, weight is not always the primary factor.

Hub wise I would look at the SLX hubs over the XT because they actually have a stronger freehub body and use stronger cro-mo steel axles. They are also centerlock. Rim wise I would look at a wider, stronger model but 32 spokes will be fine for you if built properly. Spokes look at double butted DT Comps or Wheelsmith DB14 with brass nipples. Butted spokes make a more durable wheel than strait gage spokes.

Hand built wheels have the advantage of using standardized parts, so getting a replacement spoke if one breaks is easy. Bicycle Wheel Warehouse can build you up a nice wheelset with the SLX hubs for well within your budget.
Mountain - Trail & All Mtn - Trail & All Mtn Full Custom - Bicycle Wheel Warehouse


----------



## Hangtime (Jan 25, 2006)

I'm 235lbs and have several wheel sets built up by Universal Cycle. They have a wheel builder tool on their site that lets you pick any part you want. They have built up both XC and DH wheels for me with butted spokes and their 32 spoke wheels are super strong. All three sets have seen days in Whistler so I'd steer you away from 36 spoke unless you are really beating the heck out of them. You can also send in your current hubs. I'd go with butted spokes and brass nipples with a solid Mavic rim (my own preference)


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

OK, trying to read through and understand. I am going to go look at what I got and back at both these configuration pages. There is a whole lot of choices there, trying to digest it all.

So far it seems butted spokes with brass nipples are important. Couple people have mentioned Mavic rims so maybe that's what to use, and Shimano either SLX or XT hubs. On the mavic wheels on one of the builders it shows XM719 and then XM819 for $5 more, not sure if that's a good upgrade or not?

I am going to keep reading maybe look at the mavic specs and shimano website but any additional feedback or suggestions still would be appreciated.

Also I think for the sake of the cost of discs it makes sense to get a spare set, any comments on discs or just get whatever shimano has to match the hubs?


----------



## Hangtime (Jan 25, 2006)

One thing to keep in mind is you that a new set of hand built wheels may move with you to your next bike if you do a frame up build. Not to confuse the issue but hub sizes are changing so you may want to get a hub that can convert between 135 to 142 in the back and 9/15/20mm up front. Hope makes good quality hubs that convert. Just something to think about. However if you don't care about this I'd spend as much as you can on the rear hub and less on the front to save on $$$. The Mavic 321 rims were excellent for my first build. The 819 has been rolling since 2007 for me with no issues and it gives me the option of tubes or tubeless. On the extra rotors, I'd put that money into the wheel build, I've never broken one on the trail, only replaced as needed.


----------



## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

Get 819's if you have tubeless tire aspirations, it is a true UST rim so using UST or Tubeless Ready tires on it is a cinch. However, the 719 is a lighter rim (the 819 is over 500g a rim when you include the required nipple inserts) so if you plan to stick with tubes then go that route.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

So I did some reading and got a few questions...
Mavic - I guess this is the top brand?
So suggestions I see are the XM 719 and 819 rims, it says the 819 are UST, but I can still use the tires with tubes I have now and just consider tubeless down the road? Is there anything you are giving up by going to 819s? If it's all plus with no drawback then why would anyone not get the 819?

I have a 10 speed drivetrain, not sure if that matters for hubs or not, pretty sure it doesn't but wanted to double check.

Having some trouble finding details on the shimano hubs, their website only seems to give info on the assembled wheels. Are they better than others? Just as good, best bang for the buck? If mavic rims are where it's at, would the assembled wheels be good, or are their hubs not as great?

Thanks for the help guys, definitely it's giving me good ideas on where to look and research.

Yeah the whole different axle sizes is throwing me as well, and widths, not much of a clue on any of that. I wasn't sure if I could use different stuff with what I got, I guess if you got the larger convertible ones they would just have like...shims or spacers?
The reason I was considering 2nd set of discs was so I could keep the light duty wheelset as a spare, with tires mounted for other uses without having to pull off and remount brakes. Basically a quick swap if I wanted to run on pavement or something, not wear out the good tires. I might take the discs off of the set I have now and put them on the new set and get cheapo discs for the spare set, not deadset on either.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

mtnbiker72 said:


> Get 819's if you have tubeless tire aspirations, it is a true UST rim so using UST or Tubeless Ready tires on it is a cinch. However, the 719 is a lighter rim (the 819 is over 500g a rim when you include the required nipple inserts) so if you plan to stick with tubes then go that route.


OK, I guess that might be part of what threw me, cause on mavics website it lists the 819 as lighter, but I guess with the different nipples it would make the difference.


----------



## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

If the 819's are only $5, I would go for it. Being able to run tubeless and not even needing to tape the spoke bed is worth it. A little extra weight one way or another is not something for a 235lb rider to worry about unless you're XC racing.

As for Mavic rims being head and shoulders above the rest, I wouldn't say that, but they are my preference if I am building them myself because thay have generally been among the easiest to build when doing it myself and they are of very good to excellent quality. As for their wheelsets, I would not recommend them for riders that are well into clyde status (yes, 235lbs quailifies for that) due to the freehubs not being as durable for strong, heavy riders.

36 spokes for 235lb riders? Not close to that being a slam dunk statement. A mediocre build with 36 spokes will fold up just the same as a 32 hole build. 32 spokes with a quality build should be fine for all but the biggest animals out there.

If your budget is strict and you have to stick to less than $400, you may as well go with something like mentioned above like the SLX hubs with a 719 or 819 with butted spokes and brass nipples. That's a damn nice wheelset for a Trek 4900, and it could move on to a newer bike if all the axle specs are the same.

Someone above mentioned the Hope hube being convertible to a wide range of axle configurations and this is true, but at this point, I don't know if I could recommend going that route for a rider that isn't even sure of what kind of riding they will be doing in two years. Spend modestly, but wisely now and you'll have a fine wheelset that will serve you well for quite a long time, and if you end up upgrading your bike in a couple years, you can worry about that then. A Hope Pro II wheelset build will cost over $500. If you spend $300+/- on a good wheelset now, that will be $200 saved that you can put toward a future bike and worry about what wheels will go on it when that time comes.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

Jeffj - I think I agree with you, I honestly don't know what I am looking at and had I not done in the other wheels I wouldn't be shopping for wheels now, so I think really good is plenty good enough for my purposes.

I beat the rear wheel back to sorta straight and attempted to true from the frame, front didn't need bashing just attempted to true. They aren't dead straight, but they are ridable I think now....but I don't trust them. 

Either way....I am leaning towards the SLX-819 build, I would be up for XT because the price is very similar, but if the SLX is actually stronger...then rock on. Can anyone ease my mind and confirm that the 10 speed dyna-sys will mount up on that hub? It looks like that build should come it right about at $300 delivered...I think that's a doable price for a wheel upgrade I wasn't planning on doing.


----------



## Maximilious (May 29, 2012)

I'm 6'4" 210lbs and have had no probs with Stans' arch / chris king wheels, and they are light


----------



## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

kwikshift said:


> Jeffj - I think I agree with you, I honestly don't know what I am looking at and had I not done in the other wheels I wouldn't be shopping for wheels now, so I think really good is plenty good enough for my purposes.
> 
> I beat the rear wheel back to sorta straight and attempted to true from the frame, front didn't need bashing just attempted to true. They aren't dead straight, but they are ridable I think now....but I don't trust them.
> 
> Either way....I am leaning towards the SLX-819 build, I would be up for XT because the price is very similar, but if the SLX is actually stronger...then rock on. Can anyone ease my mind and confirm that the 10 speed dyna-sys will mount up on that hub? It looks like that build should come it right about at $300 delivered...I think that's a doable price for a wheel upgrade I wasn't planning on doing.


Yes the SLX is stronger than XT, is easier to get spare parts (cones, axles, bearings), and will work with 10 speed cassettes.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

mtnbiker72 said:


> Yes the SLX is stronger than XT, is easier to get spare parts (cones, axles, bearings), and will work with 10 speed cassettes.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Not to add more confusion, all will work with 10 spd...but there are three XT models 775/785's and 756's, and they are worlds apart.

756 = 6-bolt, 16 poe (clicks) and heavy.
775/785 = c/l, 36 poe and 330g.

The 775's had some issues, and this I believe is why mtbbiker recommended the SLX's (629's w/ 32 poe). The new 785's Shimano added a seal to the non drive side and supposedly (mine are too new to say) fixed the issues. All are well under $100, so unless you drop coin for a set of convertible hubs (Hope, Hadley, King, DT) the 785's may also be a good choice.
IMO @ 210# I'd stick with 32 holes, as they provide many more options. Fewer and you'll feel wheel flex. 36 and rim choices are very limited. Having gone tubeless & trouble free for more than a year, it's worth considering Flow's and P35's too - especially if you like 'em fat.


----------



## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

Flyin_W said:


> Not to add more confusion, all will work with 10 spd...but there are three XT models 775/785's and 756's, and they are worlds apart.
> 
> 756 = 6-bolt, 16 poe (clicks) and heavy.
> 775/785 = c/l, 36 poe and 330g.
> ...


We're talking centerlock hubs as mentioned in the previous posts, and even though the M785's have a new seal you still can't purchase an individual axle and cones for it. Only a complete axle with cones which costs almost as much as the complete hub. The SLX (M629 or M665, both use the same freehub body and internals) use the old style cro-mo axles and loose ball bearings just like the M756. This makes the parts available at nearly every LBS on the planet and can be purchased individually for much less. That is the main reason I recommend the SLX hubs over the new centerlock XT hubs.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

good info ^^^ thanks.


----------



## ncruz408 (Apr 25, 2011)

kwikshift said:


> Jeffj - I think I agree with you, I honestly don't know what I am looking at and had I not done in the other wheels I wouldn't be shopping for wheels now, so I think really good is plenty good enough for my purposes.
> 
> I beat the rear wheel back to sorta straight and attempted to true from the frame, front didn't need bashing just attempted to true. They aren't dead straight, but they are ridable I think now....but I don't trust them.
> 
> Either way....I am leaning towards the SLX-819 build, I would be up for XT because the price is very similar, but if the SLX is actually stronger...then rock on. Can anyone ease my mind and confirm that the 10 speed dyna-sys will mount up on that hub? It looks like that build should come it right about at $300 delivered...I think that's a doable price for a wheel upgrade I wasn't planning on doing.


Very curious on what you will pick up. Subscribing to the thread. I am a clydesdale as well and looking to upgrade my wheel set. Great reading so far.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

Right now I am trying to figure out the whole 15mm thru-axle and 135/142 and all the rest of that other stuff. If that's really the way things are going it might be in my best interest to consider that as hangtime suggested. Honestly really hadn't gotten into that or considered it so I am doing some investigating into that now to try and educate myself.

If I were to go that route what would be a suggestion for hubs?

Also is there any real performance difference between centerlock and 6 bolt? Which is really the industry standard or anticipated to be the standard? If I am dropping some good cash on this and it doesn't make sense to stay centerlock then I don't have to. Is it that shimano is centerlock and everything else is 6 bolt?


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

kwikshift said:


> ....
> 1) If I were to go (convertible) what would be a suggestion for hubs?
> 2) Also is there any real performance difference between centerlock and 6 bolt?
> 3) Which is really the industry standard or anticipated to be the standard?
> 4) Is it that shimano is centerlock and everything else is 6 bolt?


1) Hope, Hadley, DT, King ($$--> $$$$)
2) No, other than ease to change a c/l rotor. 
3) The standard Q/R 135/10mm rear + 100/9mm front is changing, and to ?
4) Yes.
By Mavic seeking sole control of UST certification, they clustered 29er rim/tire progress, so I'm not a fan.


----------



## happyriding (May 9, 2008)

> Right now I am trying to figure out the whole 15mm thru-axle and 135/142 and all the rest of that other stuff.


Here is what I think I know:

The thicker the axle running through your hub, the stiffer the wheel will feel. Stiffer is considered better. Besides the original skinny skewer option, now forks have 15mm and 20mm through axle options. Being your size and wanting a burly setup, I bought a fork that uses a 20mm through axle system. The axle is very wide in diameter--but hollow and very light--and the through axle system makes it extremely easy to slide the wheel back into place. The fork has wide groves cut into it, and the ends of the hub slide into the groves. Then you insert the through axle through the fork and hub and clamp everything down. Here is a picture:

36 160 TALAS FIT RLC Bike Fork | FOX

Fox couldn't leave well enough alone, though, so they introduced a new through axle system that employed a skinnier 15mm through axle, which they claimed was lighter and just as strong. No one believes them: the weight savings are minimal but you end up with a skinnier axle.

Meanwhile, bike designers were trying to improve the rear end as well. So they came out with thicker axles that were 135x10mm and 135x12mm (with the second number being the diameter), and which were solid, heavy axles that went through the hub. Also, getting a rear wheel back into the dropouts is much tougher than with the front wheel, so the next improvement was to employ the hollow through axle system in the rear. That is known as the 142/12mm system, and all the hot, new bike frames are machined for that system.

Now what about hub manufacturers and consumers? There are so many different systems and sizes for the axles that run through the middle of your hubs that if you buy a set of wheels/hubs for one system and then later on get a new fork or a new bike, your wheels may not fit. So hub manufacturers started making hubs that have adapters to fit all the different systems, and consumers liked that idea, so they bought the hubs because with the purchase of a $40 adapter for their hubs, their wheels would work with a different axle system. Hope, Hadley, etc. make hubs where you can buy adapters to fit any sized axle system.

If I were you, I would get 36 hole hubs. There are enough 36 hole rims available that you can find something suitable. Here's one:

Universal Cycles -- Mavic EN 521 Disc Rim 2012

Now, if you are going to change wheelsets like shoes, and want to try a different rim every year, then stick to 32 hole hubs. I am your size, and I intended to get 36 hole hubs, but due to time constraints I couldn't source the one's I wanted, so with some trepidation I went with 32 hole hubs, and my wheels(Hadley Hubs with Stan's Flow rims) have stayed true for the last 7 months. My builder chose straight gauge spokes to build a stiffer wheel, and another tech in a shop that I went into said he would have used straight gauge spokes too. So there is some more food for thought.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

OK guys, I have been really appreciating the input. Just a couple more questions. I am thinking I will order through BWW so my questions are based on their options.

I am leaning towards the SLX hubs with just the standard QR. I am thinking this because this is my first real mountain bike and I don't know what I am going to ride going forward...26, 29er...or who knows if I will be one of those guys that likes a 650b. I don't know what forks or frames I will get...but intuatively I am thinking that if I keep a 26er it will be this bike, then I might augment the team with a 29er or 650 or who knows. But I found myself going down a rabbit hole and looking at a huge investment and trying to guess what axles I might have in the future and stuff like that...it just got to be too much, and even at the SLX level they will be the most high end parts on the bike.

I am thinking of using the DT Comp spokes just cause that was what was suggested. There are 2 DT Champ options and 2 DT Comp options before a big price jump, then 2 more DT Comps that notably more expensive. I ran through the spec sheets on DTs website and I can see now how the diameters work, so I guess more a question for curiosity as I don't think I will pay the $70 premium to get the narrow DT Comps...but I assume that big jump in price is just for the weight savings and may actually make a slightly less robust spoke? Also between the champs and the comps....would having the 2.0 the whole length make the spoke stronger? Or in the center where it necks down to 1.8 I assume it doesn't need the strength as there is different loads there and it's worth the weight savings?

Brass nipples....guess they are just a little stronger? Either way, no bigs there..brass is cool.

Rims....this is the last big question in my head. I am thinking the more all mountain types like the Mavic XM line will be best suited for me, I am not a super clyde but I am thinking I ride pretty hard for cross country, and I have done a couple small drops and there are some sizable logs and roots and rocks where I ride and I want to feel confident in the rims. 

That said they are using the Sun Rhyno Lite as their baseline kit cost, and there are several upgrades all in the $10-35 range.

Pure rims, don't know any of these worth considering?
Mavic, thinking between the XM 719 and XM 819.
DT Swiss 5.1 - how's this compare to the Mavics?



TL;DR - Ordering from BWW and getting SLX Hubs, DT Comp Spokes. Need help chosing between Mavic, DT and Pure rims.


----------



## Endothermic Cavewalker (Sep 6, 2010)

Before you place an order, you should take a look through pinkbike's buy and sell listings. I bought a set of barely used wheels with a Hope front hub, a Chris King rear hub laced to Stan's Flow rims for $500. There are a lot of used wheels on there with Mavic rims, Hope hubs, Chris Kings...etc...You never know, someone in your area could have a decent wheel set for sale for the cost of what you might buy new.

Mountain bike news, photos, videos and events - Pinkbike


----------



## happyriding (May 9, 2008)

> Mavic, thinking between the XM 719 and XM 819.


Have you seen this:



> Recommended tyre widths: 1.50 to 2.30


The rims might be too narrow. Do people run wider tires on those rims? I do't run anything smaller than 2.35 and prefer 2.5.



> who knows if I will be one of those guys that likes a 650b


The mtb rags have been hyping 650B so much, I think that size will be the new it thing next year. MBA just ranked the 29er last in their shoot out. The 26 inch phoenix rises out of the ashes.


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

happyriding said:


> The rims might be too narrow. Do people run wider tires on those rims? I do't run anything smaller than 2.35 and prefer 2.5.


Yeah, I did see that, and although it gave me pause for like a half a second I run 2.35 and I figured 2.3 or 2.35 would be negligible, but it is in the back of my head.

That's a good question though that I hadn't considered, what should I look at for width?


----------



## Hangtime (Jan 25, 2006)

I run 819 rims and currently run Conti Trail King in both 2.2 and 2.4. They are big tires and the rim holds them well. I have only had one issue that was my fault. Running tubeless with a Rubber Queen 2.4 I failed to air it up enough and the bead came off in a corner. 

If you want wider there is the 823 but they cost more and are heavier. Stan's and WTB also make a Tubeless ready rim that are wider, same price range. Both good quality.


----------



## ncruz408 (Apr 25, 2011)

Any status? I am curious on what you got...


----------



## kwikshift (Apr 4, 2012)

No status really. New job, no time. Sudden change in house purchasing plans so....no money. Got the originals trued and have ridden them, but the upgrade is on the to do list. Bent the rails on my saddle....so that has been moved up the list as well.


----------



## 4nbstd (Apr 12, 2012)

kwikshift said:


> No status really. New job, no time. Sudden change in house purchasing plans so....no money. Got the originals trued and have ridden them, but the upgrade is on the to do list. Bent the rails on my saddle....so that has been moved up the list as well.


Bummer. I had to get a new water heater and my toy fund took the most damage:cryin:


----------



## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

kwikshift,
I'm similar size, and found a set of Shimano XT/Mavic 823 rims on eBay a few years ago for less than $200. I've pretty much tried to kill them and have not succeeded (they seem indestructible). That said, they're HEAVY! Unless you see yourself putting on weight, you don't need to go crazy with your wheels. Look around for decent deals on used wheelsets, check craigslist, pinkbike, eBay for deals. The SLX hub is a good deal since you wouldn't have to get different brake rotors (think $20-30 per wheel if you switched to 6 bolt). I like the Mavic UST setup, but am in the process of replacing my wheels with a Stan's Flow/Hope Pro II wheelset.

Good luck, and remember that riding what you have is better than sitting around dreaming of better components.


----------



## rtbs (Mar 31, 2009)

If you're looking for strong wheels with hubs that are adaptable to almost anything AND are sort of inexpensive, check out Azonic Outlaws. They are heavy wheels but I have had a pair for just over two years with my 6'2" 300+ carcass busting through rocks and caliche with almost zero issue. Being a big rider, I try to keep grounded but it's rocky here in our area and I have gone through a few other wheels on other bikes in the quiver. 

On another note the new Frequency rims from WTB build up a real nice wheel. The design should hold up well as they have features that favor a large and/or aggressive rider. Everyone has made great suggestions and I just thought these were worth a look too.


----------

