# Revisiting the rack



## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

AKA "Racking my brain"

Let's face it, while a revolutionary idea, the huge seat bag has some disadvantages. They tend to swing (or as I like to say "wag"), they don't offer a ton of capacity, they can be tough to pack, they don't play well with dropper posts, they make it hard to get behind the saddle in tough terrain, they raise the bike's center of gravity, ETC.

There have obviously been multiple solutions attempted with varied success, but it seems to me that there is one obvious solution that no one seem to be giving much thought, the ol' rack and panniers.

Now I'm not saying we all go slap on that old Blackburn MTB rack and some Jandds, but with some thought I don't see why this can't be a viable option.

I've done some searching and my ideal setup doesn't seems to exist but I'm gonna lay out some ideas to get this conversation rolling. Feel free to add your thoughts too.

For me there are two principals that are key; Simplicity, as you don't want more stuff on your bike to go wrong, and form, one of the traditional R&P setup's biggest hurdles.

IMO the ideal rack would be a combination of three existing ideas. First being the Axiom Streamliner series (Streamliner - Racks - Products - Axiom Cycling Gear), obviously to get the bags as narrow as possible to be able to fit through single track. Second being the Tubus Vega. I love the simple construction and that it's made outta steel. And third being the Velo-Orange bikepacking rack prototype (The Velo ORANGE Blog: Bike Packing Rack, Blems, and Bells), or even the Salsa Minimalist, mostly for the fact that the deck is one piece. Obviously this hurts in the adjustability department but k.i.s.s.

I envision the rack being made of three main pieces of steel tubing, one forming the deck (like the VO) and two arches for supports (like the forward one of the Vega).

The second main component being bags, or as I see it bag. The main inspiration being a motorcycle product called the Giant Loop Coyote (https://giantloopmoto.com/product/coyote-saddlebag/). Obviously the shape would have to be changed but, IMO, the idea of one U-shaped bag that matches the shape of the rack and is mainly supported by simply laying on the rack seems to be perfect.

Personally I don't think it even needs to be very voluminous, but it seems like 20L is a realistic goal. It'd be slightly larger then a seat bag but would be exponentially more stable, would keep the load lower, and should have a higher weight capacity (depending on the rack).

I haven't gone as far as starting a design but it seems like there are enough rack and bag makers out there that could whip something up. I'm curious to hear other people's ideas, thoughts, ETC.


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## kiwimtbr (Mar 1, 2004)

Yes I totally agree. I recently returned from a bikepacking trip and used my panniers which are 15L capacity each side. They did not stick out any further than the bottle cages on the front forks and I did do some singletrack and did not have any problems. Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

I have and use a seatbag, but I generally agree with your points about their advantages/disadv. versus racks and panniers. A few very competitive ITI riders are successfully using lightweight racks with small pannier setups and a drybag/stuffsack on the top platform. Some of the panniers in use were designed for canine backpackers, as bike specific designs were deemed to bulky. Large sidebags encourage too large loads and get in the way in HAB situations. Racks also are versatile when carrying unplanned for, short term loads like gathering firewood enroute to your campsite.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Agreed, at least for some trips it would be great to have a little more capacity (and easy packing) than a large seat bag, but still minimal and trim enough to not make riding rougher terrain a buzzkill. I would love to figure out a lightweight, stout and easy to install/remove rack that could support something along the lines of the Porcelain Rocket "Micro Panniers" and a small dry bag on top for my Fargo.

Curious to see what folks may be using along these lines. And to add to the list, Rogue Panda now offers a small, lightweight pannier set:

Kaibab Panniers - Rogue Panda Designs

And so is Revelate:

https://www.revelatedesigns.com/index.cfm/store.catalog/rack/NanoPanniers


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I use a cheap quick release seatpost clamp on rack and strap my dry bag on the top of it. The dry bag carries my sleep kit, which is a sleeping bag, bivy, neolite full length pad, blow up pillow, ground cloth and if weather dictates my tarp and poles.
Since I ride a small frame I am constantly battling with a seatbag to keep the bag from hitting my tire.
This setup although heavier allows me to carry more and has built in anti sway and anti sag compared to a traditional seat bag.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't have a seatbag. I plan on breaking my World Troller down for a plane trip and then reassemble it to, among other things, ride the GAP/C&O trails. The main thing I'm worried about is whether or not my rack will fit in the case with my bike. To me, that is a major plus of bikepacking gear: it's easier to pack in my luggage. If my rack won't fit, then I'll have to make some adjustments and either get a seat bag, get a post-clamp rack, or wear a backpack.

I like the rack because it can carry more than I need, so I can generally keep lots of space open to carry random items that aren't part of my standard gear, like the occasional, over-sized food haul, firewood, or raingear that you don't need right now, but you might not want to pack it up.

I still like the idea of a bikepacking set up for weight, efficient use of space, and ease of packing during the non-biking portions of the trip, but otherwise I find racks to be far more versatile. I definitely wouldn't want to be without one when I'm riding around town.

I feel like a small enough pannier set should have a narrow enough profile not to be an issue. For anything I've got planned for the immediate future, I width won't be an issue, but I'm hopeful that down the road, or off the road, a small, front pannier set on the rear will be sufficient and unobtrusive.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

This is a lot like the whole external frame/internal frame/frameless pack discussion backpackers have. Different strokes, right? I think a lot of it depends on your bike, the route, length of time, and the gear you intend to carry.

My Vaya has a light(er) rack for panniers. That bike is for less rugged terrain than my Bucksaw, where I go rackless. I can absolutely haul more with my Vaya, for longer distances. But I can't take the Vaya on really chunky singletrack so easily, and it's a heavier bike and not as easy to HAB with.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I've got a prototype UL rear rack coming in the mail that looks promising. I'll use it on my Krampus with a dropper for techy singletrack riding missions. It also would be good for shorter folks that can't fit a decent sized seat bag above a taller 29er/29+ wheel. I'll post something once I get some test rides in.










For rides without a dropper I don't fill my PR seatbag more than 50%-60% capacity and it's all light bulky stuff so I don't have any issues riding without a rear rack.

Ultimately racks work. If you need one use one.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I plan to use a rear rack on my Karate Monkey this summer. Paired with a 1/2 frame bag and a handlebar bag, should work fine. Not planning on doing much single track, some paved and dirt roads.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I'll be curious to hear and see more after you've used it for a bit, Vik. 

There's no single solution for every type of touring, but for longer trips that are largely on FS roads and mild/moderate trails, I can see this type of setup working well. It would be great to see a lighter rack specifically designed just for this sort of min-pannier and lighter loads, and that isn't overbuilt and heavier than it needs to be. My other stipulation is that I don't want a rack on my bike all the time, or even most of the time - so it needs to be something that mounts/unmounts easily. 

@richwolf - what seat-clamp rack is that? How much weight have you been able to carry with it, and does it bounce around at all?


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## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

big_papa_nuts said:


> AKA "Racking my brain"
> 
> Let's face it, while a revolutionary idea, the huge seat bag has some disadvantages. They tend to swing (or as I like to say "wag"), they don't offer a ton of capacity, they can be tough to pack, they don't play well with dropper posts, they make it hard to get behind the saddle in tough terrain, they raise the bike's center of gravity, ETC.
> 
> There have obviously been multiple solutions attempted with varied success, but it seems to me that there is one obvious solution that no one seem to be giving much thought, the ol' rack and panniers.


I might be an exception but I don't find the above to be true. My Revelate Viscacha doesn't wag, seems easy enough to load, etc... I don't use a dropper post.

I do tend to keep my load as light and small as possible but always feel perfectly comfy at camp. If I went to pannier/rack I'd have to start drinking a lot of trail beers or have empty panniers.

My buddy uses a rack that mounts to the seatpost. He carries a heavier load it seems to work great.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

The folks at Ride Studio Cafe are fans of the drybag-strapped-to-rack approach. They also use a seat bag, despite having a rack, which is a trend I can't quite figure out. If I have a rack, I'm just going to strap the dry bag to it, not to my seat.









These folks mostly ride cross style bikes on mixed terrain that varies between rocky single track, dirt roads, and beautiful tarmac.

Note: the rack is a custom TI number that completely disassembles flat for shipping.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Matterhorn said:


> I might be an exception but I don't find the above to be true. My Revelate Viscacha doesn't wag, seems easy enough to load, etc... I don't use a dropper post.
> 
> I do tend to keep my load as light and small as possible but always feel perfectly comfy at camp. If I went to pannier/rack I'd have to start drinking a lot of trail beers or have empty panniers.
> 
> My buddy uses a rack that mounts to the seatpost. He carries a heavier load it seems to work great.


I actually didn't notice my Viscacha wagging, or at least wasn't bothered by it, until I did a 300 pavement trip. By the end I never wanted that thing on my bike again.

I have used it since, on and off road, and while I think it's ok while riding trails I still can't help but thinking about it, and thus noticing and being bothered by it.

I have made the switch to a Rogue Panda Picketpost, which is much better, but still think there is room for improvement.


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## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

Is is possible it was overloaded? I keep mine under 5 lbs. and it works perfectly. No movement at all. Your point though might be you want more capacity without the wagging. Right? I get that. 

Bikepacking is a lot like ultralight backpacking. Can't really get a super light pack and stuff it with heavy gear. Won't be comfortable. Same pack with lighter gear will be great. 

Is it possible to lighten your load? Seatpost mounted rack works great for a buddy who carries a slightly heavier ( mainly whisky) load. 

To be fair I've got an XXL ECR with a ginormous frame bag so that helps a lot.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

I like this setup from Bedrock bags. The panniers are a one-off he said but I'm sure he would make to order.

__
http://instagr.am/p/BDd92RIsuD2/
Living in the Southwest, I'm always thinking strategies to carry enough water along with my gear. A set of small panniers help with water storage.

mike


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have been thinking of a water rack too, up to two extra days worth would make some interesting trips possible.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Matterhorn said:


> Is is possible it was overloaded? I keep mine under 5 lbs. and it works perfectly. No movement at all. Your point though might be you want more capacity without the wagging. Right? I get that.
> 
> Bikepacking is a lot like ultralight backpacking. Can't really get a super light pack and stuff it with heavy gear. Won't be comfortable. Same pack with lighter gear will be great.
> 
> ...


The problem with these discussions is that they are totally subjective. While I'm not someone who is cutting the handle off their toothbrush I wouldn't say I'm overloading anything.

The most I tend to carry in my seatbag is the body and rain fly of my tent (REI dash 2), a puffy jacket, a small first aid kit, and possibly a rain jacket. I tend not to weigh things of this nature but that can't be more then 7 or 8 lbs.

But as I mentioned the RP Picketpost has helped the wag issue noticeably. The Viscacha has be relegated to use on the bouncy bike where I tend to use a backpack to help with the shredability so it's load is minimal.

To clarify, I'm not trying to dog on the seatbag. They were, and still are, a brilliant way to carry stuff on a MTB. But if I can have greater stability, versatility, and capacity it seems like a no brainer.


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

Drybag strapped to rack works in theory. In practice, the constant careful loading of a drybag for roundness, followed by careful cinching of said drybag to the rack for stability, takes like ten minutes on its own sometimes. It's a real hassle. 

I "upgraded" from a Viscacha to a Pika. I have plenty of room for a Viscacha, but the Pika sways less because it's smaller. Good compromise.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

Porcelain Rocket seems to have you covered, although I can't say I've used either of these options but they look like they fit the bill

Mr. Fusion V2 | Custom Bicycle Bags - The Porcelain Rocket

Micro Panniers | Custom Bicycle Bags - The Porcelain Rocket


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Panniers and typical MTB bikepacking set ups have their respective pros/cons. I use one or the other, and sometimes a mix of both. The ride, bike, and the style of riding dictate the best setup for me.

I enjoy not having anything except a map case on my bars. And I enjoy not having anything on my bars and fork to slow down steering and view. Not wearing a pack is a plus for obvious reasons.

I'm looking at a long ride this year and working out my system. I think a "front" rack and panniers on the rear will be in the mix (will require minor fabrication). I'm pondering the feasibility of one pannier, on the opposite side I usually dismount and walk on.

Lashing items atop a rack is a great feature that I miss with frame-type bags. Top-loading panniers are a joy to load and access. I've retrofitted my panniers with hrz compression straps which do a great job of keeping them from feeling like panniers, and also to ease the strain on the attachments. The compression straps connect to the rack, not just around the bag, resulting in not only compression, but pulling the load closer to center.

I'm glad to see pannier options on the rise. They don't fill the bill for every outing, but for the right ones they add convenience and expandable cargo capacity.

Thanks for posting up the thoughts and products.


PS:

"In practice, the constant careful loading of a drybag for roundness, followed by careful cinching of said drybag to the rack for stability, takes like ten minutes on its own sometimes."

I haven't found this to be true. But sure, drybags used this way are subject to substantial wear. I've patched many holes in my current fave drybag, and I generally pack dry-critical contents in their own sub-bags.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Smithhammer said:


> I'll be curious to hear and see more after you've used it for a bit, Vik.
> 
> There's no single solution for every type of touring, but for longer trips that are largely on FS roads and mild/moderate trails, I can see this type of setup working well. It would be great to see a lighter rack specifically designed just for this sort of min-pannier and lighter loads, and that isn't overbuilt and heavier than it needs to be. My other stipulation is that I don't want a rack on my bike all the time, or even most of the time - so it needs to be something that mounts/unmounts easily.
> 
> @richwolf - what seat-clamp rack is that? How much weight have you been able to carry with it, and does it bounce around at all?


Ahhhhh bikepacking where you spend a small fortune to live like a homeless person!

I forget the name of the rack but I think I got it on amazon. Hacked off front part of rack and part of reflector mount. Still can mount a rear flasher which puts it in the perfect place. I tied on two straps to hold dry bag on.
Rack weighs one pound 7 ounces and full sleep kit and dry bag is 5 pounds 14 ounces (bivy, ground cloth, full length air pad, 30 degree down bag and pillow). My tarp with poles and stakes probably runs another 1 pound 4 ounces but I will only take this if I anticipate rain. While this may seem heavy for the rack the small seatbag I had weighs 14 ounces! Dry bags are lighter and much cheaper to replace and keep things drier than most seatbags plus you can buy the exact capacity you need.

I was skeptical of the quick release mount but it has held up and clamps on tight and is super convenient to get on and off. Rack is very solid for the load I am carrying and I think if you stay under 10 pounds total for load and rack you should be good. No more sag of seat bag, sway of seat bag and the freekin PITA loading and unloading of a seat bag and with the small I need to get not nearly enough capacity. I just stuff my dry bag, seal it up and lash it on. So much faster and way less frustrating than cramming your stuff in a weird shaped seat bag and trying to compress it and roll it up and strap it in the perfect position. If I get my seat bag stuffed and compressed and set where it doesn't hit the tire it is way up in the air making mounts and dismounts another PITA.

I use two bedrock tapeat bags on the bars (which are awesome) and a bag in the front to hold a windbreaker and or food. I hate sweet roll and harness setups. There are even worse than seatbags in my opinion. Hard to load, interfere with cables and controls, sometimes come too close to tire etc.
My small bikes have too small of main triangle to hardly bother putting in a frame bag but one can hold a bladder, tube, pump and repair kit. The one from my Ti bike doesn't fit well on my Griffin plus bike so more money down the drain!
I am stuck with having to wear a pack but they give me the extra storage capacity and much easier organization of stuff you need to get to, I often run bottle cages on the fork and that works very well.
I do think a front rack that would hold a small drybag would be nice too, something that you could easily clamp and unclamp but that would be a tough one to figure out.


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## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

A couple of extra cinch straps that tighten the Vischata into the saddle rails really help stop it moving about I have found, when it is packed fully. Along with packing anything slightly denser at the bottom.
Works great with packets of rice but not so good with dried noodles


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## dovebiker (Jul 22, 2013)

Short person here finding out that a seat pack can slip-down on a descent and potentially jam the back wheel. Had a custom titanium rack made for my fatbike and use a Delta Cargo Net to hold a 20L dry bag:

https://deltacycle.com/image/cache/data/MR130B/20140731_DeltaCycle-Outdoor_2013-600x600.JPG

I can also stash spare jackets, layers under the mesh for easy access. Also looking at some Revelate Nano panniers for extended capacity.


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## trailnimal (Mar 1, 2004)

Same here...short...and small frame FAT bike (2014 Farley). 
I could not use my suspension seat post with the seat pack as it would hit the tire. 
So installed a rack on the back with micro panniers and use my existing seat pack but now with the thudbuster. With the extra capacity of the panniers, I can reduce weight and bulk on my back. The front rack will help keep the roll away from the controls and rubbing the headtube. This does however add weight, and I don't like the added complexity of the front rack with my QR.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

Interestingly it seems like racks have a particularly high market share on fat bikes. Seems like fat bikers ride slightly less aggressively and travel into more remote/extreme areas requiring more clothing, food, water, tools, and spares.


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## trailnimal (Mar 1, 2004)

I'm in north NJ, and don't have the wide open expansive areas with gravel Forest Fire roads. There may be a few sections of old railroad grade, but the rest is woods roads and technical single track. Not much in the way of flow, low average speed. I'm not racing, it is not the TD, and to bring more participants into the fold, there needs to be more comforts and gear. The distribution of said gear is not always equitable either. So yes, the FAT bike lends itself well to slow rock crawling and too much gear.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I've been fighting this quandary myself. I just purchased a Thule rack and am working on installing it.

I am not going with their platform though. A few years ago, I completely rebuilt a fiberglass boat. By rebuilt, I mean built a cradle for it, cut out all of the old stringers and bulkheads, ground it down to the hull and built it back with fiberglass and epoxy. I am very familiar with fiberglass and epoxy. My plan is to build a longer and narrower platform with a custom dry bag for it that slides over the new fiberglass platform. The dry bag will connect to the seat post and be streamlined. It will be a one off deal to be sure.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

bakerjw said:


> I've been fighting this quandary myself. I just purchased a Thule rack and am working on installing it.
> 
> I am not going with their platform though. A few years ago, I completely rebuilt a fiberglass boat. By rebuilt, I mean built a cradle for it, cut out all of the old stringers and bulkheads, ground it down to the hull and built it back with fiberglass and epoxy. I am very familiar with fiberglass and epoxy. My plan is to build a longer and narrower platform with a custom dry bag for it that slides over the new fiberglass platform. The dry bag will connect to the seat post and be streamlined. It will be a one off deal to be sure.


I am very interested in this! Combo low rack, fender that allows for use on small frames and use of dropper posts or thudbuster


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

richwolf said:


> View attachment 1060104
> 
> 
> I use a cheap quick release seatpost clamp on rack and strap my dry bag on the top of it. The dry bag carries my sleep kit, which is a sleeping bag, bivy, neolite full length pad, blow up pillow, ground cloth and if weather dictates my tarp and poles.
> ...


I don't remember the brand -- maybe topeak? -- but I had one of these racks fail catastrophically on me, ~halfway through the divide in '03.

Not saying they aren't a viable option, because they are. More saying that you should carry as much bulk and as little weight as possible on it. And check for cracks at the end of every ride and before the start of the next.

I like seatbags in summer, because we carry so much less. I like a rack with a single rack top bag in winter -- because of all the bulk of winter insulation, as well as the quickness/ease of restuffing it every AM with frozen fingers.


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

mikesee said:


> I don't remember the brand -- maybe topeak? -- but I had one of these racks fail catastrophically on me, ~halfway through the divide in '03.
> 
> Not saying they aren't a viable option, because they are. More saying that you should carry as much bulk and as little weight as possible on it. And check for cracks at the end of every ride and before the start of the next.
> 
> I like seatbags in summer, because we carry so much less. I like a rack with a single rack top bag in winter -- because of all the bulk of winter insulation, as well as the quickness/ease of restuffing it every AM with frozen fingers.


I agree with your setup for winter riding, but I add a single lightweight pannier to make it easier to access and repack my parka.


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## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

richwolf said:


> I am very interested in this! Combo low rack, fender that allows for use on small frames and use of dropper posts or thudbuster


Can we please change thudbuster to butthruster? Please.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Matterhorn said:


> Can we please change thudbuster to butthruster? Please.


Sure if you want, but I have many thousands of miles on them. I know they don't work for everyone but I have been very happy with mine. My plus hardtail just got the butt thrusting treatment!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Prototype OMM bikepacking rack showed up. Sorry not mounted yet. That's my project this weekend between riding and work.

Looks well made like all OMM products. Made in the USA as well if you care about that. I have some of OMM's standard touring racks and a couple different Porcelain Rocket seatbags. So I'll compare weight and functionality across the options I have.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm glad it's not mounted. You can see how easy it would be to disassemble and pack flat, unlike my current rack. I look forward to seeing your report. I have an OMM rack that lived on the front of my trucker for quite a while. When I thought about switching it out for something else, I could not find anything to rival it. So I have high hopes for this thing.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Rob_E said:


> I'm glad it's not mounted. You can see how easy it would be to disassemble and pack flat, unlike my current rack. I look forward to seeing your report. I have an OMM rack that lived on the front of my trucker for quite a while. When I thought about switching it out for something else, I could not find anything to rival it. So I have high hopes for this thing.


Yes it will pack flat and should adapt to most bikes. They sent me extra hardware to try out so all the stuff shown isn't going to be needed.

My oldest OMM racks are 15yrs old and going strong. I've tried a variety of other racks including Tubus and Surly, but they are either on my GF's bikes or in the parts bin and the OMM racks are what gets used.

I really like the fact I can call up the folks that made my racks and get a spare part for a new bike application.

Talking to them they want feedback on how it works and they are willing to make any needed changes if the rack isn't great.


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## willzager (Oct 20, 2011)

That rack looks awesome. Looking forward to seeing it mounted!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I took a few minutes away from work to mount the rack.

I'm going to post the majority of my thoughts in my Krampus bikepacking thread because that's the bike this rack will end up on if all goes well and it makes my life easier to consolidate info into a few threads.










Feel free to ask questions here or over there.


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## willzager (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm guessing not...but would this work for a front fork rack?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

willzager said:


> I'm guessing not...but would this work for a front fork rack?


With some different struts = yes. So you could use the same platform a few different ways. Channing had this style of rack mounted to both ends of his personal MTB.


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## willzager (Oct 20, 2011)

Awesome, Thanks! And now we wait for the release.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

If you really want one now I'd bet OMM would sell you one. All they do is racks so despite being a "prototype" it's not like this is their very first rack and they are learning all their lessons from scratch.

That's just my opinion/thoughts I don't know what OMM's position would be.

It can't hurt to ask.

Old Man Mountain Products: Contact Us


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

That's a pretty sweet-looking minimalist rack. I'll be curious to hear your thoughts after some usage, Vik.

The one thing I question, just based on the pics obviously, is the size of the platform. Seems like it could be a bit on the small side for my tastes.


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## tex22 (Dec 15, 2012)

I put a rear rack on my Jones and strap a dry bag to it. Mainly for two reasons, can be a pain unloading/loading a seat pack and I can use my dropper post. 
I went with a Tubus Logo Titan, helped up with no issues on the GDMBR.


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## 12:00 RIDER (Apr 2, 2016)

trailnimal said:


> Same here...short...and small frame FAT bike (2014 Farley).
> I could not use my suspension seat post with the seat pack as it would hit the tire.
> So installed a rack on the back with micro panniers and use my existing seat pack but now with the thudbuster. With the extra capacity of the panniers, I can reduce weight and bulk on my back. The front rack will help keep the roll away from the controls and rubbing the headtube. This does however add weight, and I don't like the added complexity of the front rack with my QR.


Can you post a pic of your set up? I'm short too and also use a thudbuster, a pic is worth a thousand words to my damaged brain. Thanks!


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## trailnimal (Mar 1, 2004)

12:00 RIDER said:


> Can you post a pic of your set up? I'm short too and also use a thudbuster, a pic is worth a thousand words to my damaged brain. Thanks!


because I have the seat low to begin with, and then the Thudbuster, I had to make sure the rear rack would end up no higher than necessary to clear the tire. I measured and selected a kit that was a departure from what was suggested in the catalog. For the rear I used a FK-2X, which is the lowest bracket set. For the front, I used a FK-5R. Because the original Farley has a front hub spacing of 135mm, I ordered the QR-Rear quick release.


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## 12:00 RIDER (Apr 2, 2016)

That was fast and appreciated! I think that's where I'm headed with things. 
Just put the Thudbuster on this afternoon. Wish I could get it to drop down just a bit more... feels like I'm about a half inch higher than I want/use to be...


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## bugshield (Jun 22, 2012)

I have similar thoughts.

My ECR does double duty as a commuter and usually wears a Tubus Logo or Vega in the back with Ortlieb Front Roller Plus paniers during warmer months and sometimes with Arkel GT45s or Ortlieb Back Packer Classics when it's colder. 

My wife has a Pika that I have borrowed a couple times for bikepacking trips but I'm not entirely sold on it.

My complaint about the seat bag is not wagging which I have seen but not experienced having only a sleeping bag loaded in mine. What I primarily dislike is the extra effort required to swing a leg over it to mount/dismount the bike (SS, I do that a bit). Clearly I am spoiled by Ortlieb Panniers but I also dislike that it's a comparative pain to remove/pack/install.

The main down-side of rack/panniers seems to me to be mostly the panniers. They rattle, get in the way for HAB, weigh a ton, etc. 

I have several times looked at mounting a trunk of some sort atop my Tubus racks but they are both narrow on top and not well suited to top loading. I think I need some sort of platform attachment with a v-shape, preferably using tent stakes for double duty, in order to hold a round bag securely and easily. Some of the OMM racks definitely seem to have a better platform for top-loading but I still think the ideal setup might be a rack (or rack attachment) with a v or u-shaped platform.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

29 plus hardtail with short rider and thudbuster. Seat was too high to clear tire. Neighbor cut and pasted. We had a good laugh over his Picasso. We joked like it was as ugly as when he cut off his ear!
Bottom line it is super sturdy and clears the tire easily now. Will paint.
Before modification I have over 600 miles of use.


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## rusheleven (Jan 19, 2012)

^That seems like it would negatively impact the usage of the thudbuster? Either that or you have something super soft and squishy in the bag that is continuously being compressed and released? How long before it wears a hole in the dry bag?


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## RobertAxle142 (Mar 19, 2013)

For Sea Otter, Old Man Mountain sent us one of his "Little Mules" to show. We had it mounted on a Bluto fork that was on a Fatback Skookum. These would be a great choice on the rear as well for those that are looking to lower their center of gravity and better secure their loads vs a seat bag. Also maintains the viability of a dropper seatpost.









We also had my original OMM Sherpa from our 2003 GDMR trip on display. It is under those yellow Ortlieb panniers mounted to Rock Shox Pike with our 15mm thru-axle.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

rusheleven said:


> ^That seems like it would negatively impact the usage of the thudbuster? Either that or you have something super soft and squishy in the bag that is continuously being compressed and released? How long before it wears a hole in the dry bag?


I wondered when someone would mention that. Not a problem. Sleep kit gives enough where movement of the suspension seatpost is not affected. I have hundreds of miles on the setup with no holes in the drybag. This dry bag went with me lashed to the front of my bike on the whole Tour Divide in 2012.
I have destroyed my seatbag in short order by it hitting it on my tire. Dry bags are cheap.
A 15 liter dry bag is around $16 and a large seatbag of comparable capacity is well over $100


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry, pic heavy...

I know that seat bags are light and usually don't wobble too much when properly secured but I was looking for something more stable. I came across the Thule pack and pedal and like the stability that it offered. The one thing that I didn't like was the top part seemed small and I'd heard complaints of dry bags shifting around and hitting the back of your legs and such. So as described in an earlier post, I made the following.

The materials are a heavy waterproof ballistic nylon and some 9 ounce waterproof ripstop fabric.

In order to get the Thule rack to stay put, I glued some EPDM aroun the seat stays. and then attached the Thule rack. It mounted easily and sucked down nice and tight. It is not going anywhere.









Using my experience using epoxy and leftover materials from my boat, I laid out 2 layers of cross weave fiberglass. IT is very flexible and durable.









although the fiberglass sheet that I made is durable and flexible, I needed a bit more rigidity. Rather than buying fiberglass rope, I used some 5/8" polyester rope. I made a form with vinyl and laid the rope inside on top of the sheet. The rope really wicked up the epoxy.









Here it is after cutting it out and sanding down the edges. I also wrapped it in 8oz fiberglass cloth to soften all of the edges.









A test fit on the bike.









Firmly attached to the bike now.









I used a strip of foam between the aluminum frame and the epoxy sheet as a buffer.









So at this point, I had a light platform on the Thule rack. All that was left was to make the bag. It took 2 tries but I had plenty of material laying around so it went well. What I learned in the first run really helped out.

I didn't tale pictures of each step. It would have slowed me down. Here it is mounted on the platform and on the bike. One thing to note. The yellow tabs that hold the laced paracord on the top are triple sewed to the black balistic nylon. They are also 3 layers thick so they'll last for a long time.









The bag actually wraps under the platform using a lace pattern. The paracord is then tied around the seat post up front. This pulls the platform and bag forward and should help keep the rack from slipping down.









I used 3 strips of velcro to attach the front of the bag to the seat post. This should offload some of the forces of bounces on the trail to the seat post and stop torquing of the rack. I got one piece of velcro backward! ARGH... I'll split the thread and resew it properly.









I still have to work on securing the back of the bag. It is a simple tube. I have some 1/2" nylon straps and non adjustable clips that I might use. I also don't like the bulge right near the seat. I'll likely take it is lightly to give it a more rounded look.

This thing is solid and has a lot of capacity to it. If I don't fill it all the way, I can still put a tent, or one of the long narrow dry sacks that I have made between it and the upper lacing. I am PLEASED.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

While not my usual set up, I must say, I'm pretty happy with the Tubus Ti Carry and Revelate Micro Panniers. The paint was still curing when I had to ride, so they said no bags touching the frame. The panniers did a good job of expanding my capacity and never got in the way or felt insecure. This was 100% stable bombing down New England rocky single track and hitting potholes at 30+mph. I'd still go for a frame bag, seat bag, and bar bag before adding a rack, but if need be, the micro panniers are a pretty great solution.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Decided that for some trips, esp. where I'm just riding dirt roads, I'd like to have a good rear rack and some mini-panniers to expand my capacity. However, the rack needed to be solid enough for abuse on washboards, and I wanted to keep the panniers trim and small, with rock-solid attachment. Ended up going with a Blackburn 'Central' rack (which installed very easily on the Fargo using the upper rack mounts and clamps on the seatstays) and the Rogue Panda "Kaibab" mini-panniers.

The rack is rock solid, of course you never really know until you've put a thousand miles on one. But it sure seems like it's built for the long haul. The panniers are awesome - at 10L each, they are just the size and simplicity I was looking for, with the excellent quality I've come to expect from Rogue Panda.

I'll be putting this combo to use soon. :thumbsup:


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## kiwimtbr (Mar 1, 2004)

This is my setup which I am quite happy with

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Central Scrutinizer (Aug 30, 2005)

How do you get those two water bottles mounted side by side?


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## kiwimtbr (Mar 1, 2004)

Central Scrutinizer said:


> How do you get those two water bottles mounted side by side?


I made up a double mount for them. I'll post a pic when I get home

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## kiwimtbr (Mar 1, 2004)

Central Scrutinizer said:


> How do you get those two water bottles mounted side by side?











Here is the mount I made up out of alloy to mount two bottles side by side

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Central Scrutinizer (Aug 30, 2005)

kiwimtbr said:


> Here is the mount I made up out of alloy to mount two bottles side by side


Brilliant! Thanks!


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## Obinjatoo (Mar 7, 2016)

Their designs are great but near impossible to actually acquire.


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## Obinjatoo (Mar 7, 2016)

I lookedmat these too. If those bags camemoff the bike, they'd have me hooked.


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## Obinjatoo (Mar 7, 2016)

I've used a rear rack for years. I'm trying to set my bike up for long expeditionary touring sans rack. I go back and forth about finally ditching my rear rack. The front rack went ages ago. The problem with the rack is it's heavy. 
Has anyone tried mounting Salsa Anything cages to the rear fork? Any thoughts on this or is this just a dumb idea?


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## tdurack (Dec 31, 2012)

Smithhammer said:


> Decided that for some trips, esp. where I'm just riding dirt roads, I'd like to have a good rear rack and some mini-panniers to expand my capacity. However, the rack needed to be solid enough for abuse on washboards, and I wanted to keep the panniers trim and small, with rock-solid attachment. Ended up going with a Blackburn 'Central' rack (which installed very easily on the Fargo using the upper rack mounts and clamps on the seatstays) and the Rogue Panda "Kaibab" mini-panniers.
> 
> The rack is rock solid, of course you never really know until you've put a thousand miles on one. But it sure seems like it's built for the long haul. The panniers are awesome - at 10L each, they are just the size and simplicity I was looking for, with the excellent quality I've come to expect from Rogue Panda.
> 
> I'll be putting this combo to use soon. :thumbsup:


These look great. I am interested in getting a pair for a Tubus Duo front lowrider. Do you have pictures of both sides of the Rogue Panda Kaibab?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

tdurack said:


> Do you have pictures of both sides of the Rogue Panda Kaibab?


Here's a pic of the backside of the Kaibab, showing the velcro straps:










The compression straps simply loop around the verticals of the rack with slider buckles. Very simple but effective setup.

Another pic in use:


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