# Garmin Edge Vs Cell phone for Trailforks.



## Bassmantweed (Nov 10, 2019)

Anyone using a garmin edge unit with Trailforks? Looks interesting if you can download a map of a park and have it on your handle bars. 

All the information I have seen says you can download routes. Which is somewhat worthless as I don't know what route I want to ride until I see it. 

Would be great if the Garmin's function like Trailforks on a cell phone. A digital map that I can decide where to go on the fly.


I have seen a few of these threads that go way off course, so hoping this one stays on point - and thanks for letting me join!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

There are different ways you can use Trailforks with a Garmin Edge. At least 3 that I know of.

Oldest - Download maps from Trailforks website to put on any Garmin with mapping capability (useful for the most devices). Requires a donation to trail group. I use maps from gpsfiledepot.com for this instead.

ConnectIQ app - works on fewer Garmins. They must be able to take ConnectIQ apps and have enough memory for the app to work with. This one is specific to downloading routes and following them. It's not a basemap that you can free navigate on.

Integrated Trailforks data - This comes on the newest Edges like the 530/830/1030+ only. Based on what I can tell, it's basically the first option, but prepackaged on the device.

I'm getting a bit frustrated with Trailforks. There's been an explosion in my area lately of TF allowing people to post illegal trails. TF has not been good about removing these trails from their database, but it appears that maybe there has been some cleaning up recently. There are still some notable ones on there, but maybe they haven't been removed quite yet. I know our local trail crew has been talking about how to approach TF and the local TF moderator/approver. I also know that the USFS knows they are a problem and is working to track and address them. With all that, I don't know about updating the baked-in TF maps that come on the newer Edges. Seems to be a critical thing, if the maps Garmin put on the device have a bunch of illegal trails on them that could technically get you in trouble for riding.

All that said, I don't feel like any of these resources are necessarily very good for planning a ride before you go. I don't even like using my phone for the purpose, even though sometimes it's the best resource I've got. When I'm trying to plan a ride, I want either a bigger screen (at least tablet-sized) or a nice, big paper map. Once I get a big view and decide what I want to do, THEN I can dig into other resources. The map view on my Garmin is really only useful for quick spot checks while on the trail to get a reference for how far I might be from whatever thing I'm interested in. The summit, next intersection, stream crossing, end of the ride, whatever. If I'm navigating a route/course on the device, that's very clear because my route will be shown on the map. But if I'm just doing a ride that's in my head, then I might need to do a little more map reading to get that info.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Current OSM based Garmin maps shows most all trails. I use multiple resources on the web (including Trailforks, MTBproject, Strava heat map, controlling agency's website) to decide on a ride, layout it out on RWGPS, download it to the Garmin, and ride it, either just displaying it on the Garmin or having Garmin provide TBT instructions depending on the situation, accuracy of the map data, etc...


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## CanuckMountainMan (Oct 29, 2018)

I've been using Trailforks to plan/save my own rides on my PC,
then I can load up to 10 of them into my Garmin Edge 530.

Huge difference between running a GPS vs smartphone is battery life.
I can run my Garmin all weekend long on a single charge (30+ hours)

It was confusing finding the 530's built-in Trailforks app at first,
...then I found this Youtube that really helped.









I got my Edge 530 with MTB Bundle that came with bar mount, silicone case, wheel speed sensor and wireless remote.
The remote mounts close to your thumb so you can start/stop, lap reset, and best of all you can scroll up to 4 different screens without taking your hands off the bars. Try that with a smartphone.










After I'm done I often save my ride and upload the GPX file to the Relive app,
Uses your GPS data to create a 3D map/video and even inserts photos taken during your ride.
(Gamin Connect/Relive app on smartphone sync's with time/location of your photos/vid's taken during ride)


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Bassmantweed said:


> Anyone using a garmin edge unit with Trailforks? Looks interesting if you can download a map of a park and have it on your handle bars.
> 
> All the information I have seen says you can download routes. Which is somewhat worthless as I don't know what route I want to ride until I see it.
> 
> ...


If you get the new Garmin's they come with Trailforks pre-loaded in memory. You should be able to see where you, what trails are around you and where they go. It sounds like this would suit your purposes just fine.

That said, where I ride, a lot of trails are not on Trailforks yet. So for me, the real value of Trailforks (either on a phone or on an Edge) is being able to plan out a route ahead of time that I can then use use a phone or an Edge to navigate on the trail. It's particularly beneficial when I am riding with a group that wants the ride to be no longer than x miles or have no more than y feet of climbing.

I am planning to get an Edge at some point so that I can mount it on my handlebars. I am afraid to mount my phone on the handlebars, and it is a pain having to stop and pull a phone out of my pack every time I need to check where I am on a ride...


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## kamaaina1 (Dec 16, 2012)

Fairly new to Trailforks use, and I'm not very good at trail navigation, so we're constantly pulling out the phone to get us back on the right trail, or find our way back to our starting point is a bit challenging. Would these GPS's like the Garmin 530 be a great tool for that use?
Thank you!


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

kamaaina1 said:


> Fairly new to Trailforks use, and I'm not very good at trail navigation, so we're constantly pulling out the phone to get us back on the right trail, or find our way back to our starting point is a bit challenging. Would these GPS's like the Garmin 530 be a great tool for that use?
> Thank you!


Yes, but the screen may be too small to show much detail. The 830 or 1030, being larger, are easier to read. Another option is a cheap cell phone without a data plan. Download TrailForks and the maps to the phone, then get a handlebar mount. Issues with cell phones are screens can be hard to read and battery life can suck if you keep the screen on all the time, is why dedicated GPS units are popular.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I find even most cell phones to be too small (even the big ones) when I want to look at a map.

I carry a real paper map when I can get one. And yeah, no screen visibility problems with one of those, either (there are still screen visibility issues with Garmins, albeit different ones than with cell phones, as the screens are different).

I use my Garmin for recording, first and foremost. It does a good job of that, and I like having physical buttons for that (Edge 520). Its second real function is data display, where I'm not relying on screen colors (which are more susceptible to being washed out in glare). Things like time, distance, time of day, temp, etc. I run a wheel sensor with mine to keep the distance measurements as accurate as I can get them.

I use it for other things occasionally, but they're extremely minimal compared to the uses I stated above.

I'd say if you're "not very good at navigation" then you need to up your navigation skills regardless of what device you use. Map reading skills. Land navigation skills. As part of that, the ability to match the map with the terrain, and even to visualize the terrain when you look at a contour map (or to visualize the roads when you look at a street map, or visualize the trails when you look at a trail map, etc). All that takes practice.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> That said, where I ride, a lot of trails are not on Trailforks yet. So for me, the real value of Trailforks (either on a phone or on an Edge) is being able to plan out a route ahead of time that I can then use use a phone or an Edge to navigate on the trail. It's particularly beneficial when I am riding with a group that wants the ride to be no longer than x miles or have no more than y feet of climbing.
> 
> .


Harold and I have collectively written a book here on the forum on the issues related to navigating off road on trail systems, using a GPS. Pre-planned navigation works great on roads, as all the roads are in the map data base, so the device knows where you are and will give correct (usually) turn-by-turn directions.

Off road is more problematic for at least 2 reasons. 1) With TrailForks, the trails in the database are trails that others have ridden and uploaded as a route to TF. It's not a database created by the trail system managers that has been extensively field checked (though some clubs, like my local mt. bike club, does pay attention and fixes stuff). 2) There may well be additional trails, official or not, that are not in the database, that can make TBT directions hit and miss.

Thus and dependent on how convoluted a trail system can be, or how far from civilization you are, carrying a paper map is a good idea, then use the GPS to tell you where on the paper map you might happen to be. I have had success on some of my local trails that are complicated, in using a pre-planned route, and had my Edge 1030 make correct calls for TBT directions.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I'd say that the primary reason navigation on trails with a GPS device is problematic is a more core problem.

Start using roads as an example. Those are recorded at a pretty high precision. Public data is simplified, of course, and the data our sat nav maps are based on is simplified for database purposes. But because roads are generally pretty straight, that's not a big deal and the accuracy remains high. They're also huge, relatively speaking, so there's a big "buffer" as to what constitutes "on road" vs "off the road". you can see that effect based on the lag that it takes your phone or car nav to notice that you're on an off-ramp for the highway.

Trails in the woods, on the other hand, have a VERY small footprint. The threshold for what constitutes "on trail" vs "off trail" is actually lower than the accuracy of anybody's GPS devices to begin with. Compound that with the fact that we're all using consumer grade hardware that costs at most a few hundred $$$, and not the professional grade gear used to record the positions of our roads (which costs on the order of tens of thousands of dollars). This means that the recorded accuracy of the trails in our various databases is low. AND the mapping services (like TF and MTBProject) are ALSO simplifying the data for database efficiency, and the accuracy in the maps is pretty low. Coupled with the relatively lower accuracy of our consumer grade gear, you're going to get "off trail" warnings a TON.

Which means that with a Garmin, we have to dial back our expectations of what we're going to get. The common method is to load the desired route, and to only follow it visually on the map screen. That means no turn notifications, no "off route" notifications, nada.

There are good reasons why an outdoor GPS device doesn't work like a car GPS device, though lots of phone apps lose the utility of the outdoor GPS functions in favor of the simplicity and familiarity of car GPS functionality.


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## render ranger (Aug 22, 2019)

Harold said:


> Coupled with the relatively lower accuracy of our consumer grade gear, you're going to get "off trail" warnings a TON.
> 
> Which means that with a Garmin, we have to dial back our expectations of what we're going to get. The common method is to load the desired route, and to only follow it visually on the map screen. That means no turn notifications, no "off route" notifications, nada.


Forksense on my 830 has exceeded my expectations and does just what I want it to do. When riding a new area I don't need to pull my phone out to confirm that I'm heading the right way.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

render ranger said:


> Forksense on my 830 has exceeded my expectations and does just what I want it to do. When riding a new area I don't need to pull my phone out to confirm that I'm heading the right way.


I have to ask. What is Forkesense ?.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Catmandoo said:


> I have to ask. What is Forkesense ?.


it's part of TF's baked-in functionality with the newest Garmins.

1. TF rolled out the whole subscription service thing VERY poorly. They're not getting any more traffic from me.
2. I'm not relying on anything digital to make my backcountry navigation decisions for me, anyway. I've personally experienced a number of shortcomings of GPS navigation. While knowing my position is useful, it's one of the functions less prone to problems on these devices. Things can go to hell when routing comes into play, because routing is computationally hard.
3. Part of the enjoyment I get out of going into the woods is figuring my own navigation. Making changes on the fly to go see something interesting. I simply can't fathom why people would even want to outsource that job.


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## render ranger (Aug 22, 2019)

Harold said:


> Part of the enjoyment I get out of going into the woods is figuring my own navigation. Making changes on the fly to go see something interesting. I simply can't fathom why people would even want to outsource that job.


Hilarious.

Just because folks use Forksense doesn't mean that they have to stay on a particular trail, route, etc. or that they are stuck relying on "the digital" to make backcountry navigation decisions.

p.s. complaining about TF's $1.50/month subscription is funny too.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I still have no idea what Forkesense is or does. The search function on the TF site is useless, no surprise,

The $1.50 issue has been beaten to death here https://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bik...pro-new-app-subscription-service-1150421.html


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

render ranger said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> Just because folks use Forksense doesn't mean that they have to stay on a particular trail, route, etc. or that they are stuck relying on "the digital" to make backcountry navigation decisions.
> 
> p.s. complaining about TF's $1.50/month subscription is funny too.


I'm not the only one who thinks the rollout was poorly done. If you think it's "just" about $1.50/mo, then you're a fool.

I know digital navigation well enough to know that it doesn't like it when you deviate from the pre-set route. It means more messing with the device during the course of the ride. Any devices I use should effectively disappear over the course of the ride.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

Harold said:


> I know digital navigation well enough to know that it doesn't like it when you deviate from the pre-set route. It means more messing with the device during the course of the ride. Any devices I use should effectively disappear over the course of the ride.


Agree with Harold on this. Garmins have only recently (1030 Plus, 130 Plus) revised the navigation software to allow better options for how the device deals with a deviation from a planned course. Prior to this, they really only knew how that you were not on a planned route with few good options to deviate. Doesn't mean the new options works on single track.

I've actually had some luck with a TrailForks planned route on local trail system, where it correctly figured out where I was and showed me correct TBT instructions. I was actually surprised that it worked. It can only get better, but when my life counts on it, I bring a paper map as well.


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## render ranger (Aug 22, 2019)

Harold said:


> I'm not the only one who thinks the rollout was poorly done. If you think it's "just" about $1.50/mo, then you're a fool.


Hey sweetheart, I get it. You're super upset about "the rollout" of TF Pro. A cheap product that you claim you're not interested in.

Your response is laughable, but that doesn't make me a fool.


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## render ranger (Aug 22, 2019)

Catmandoo said:


> I still have no idea what Forkesense is or does. The search function on the TF site is useless, no surprise,
> 
> The $1.50 issue has been beaten to death here https://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bik...pro-new-app-subscription-service-1150421.html


My mistake. Forksight vs. Forksense.

Forks in the trail pop up on the Garmin so you don't have to dig your phone out.


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