# Brake upgrade suggestion?



## rwdbkr (Jan 24, 2008)

Been on a new 2018 Levo for a few rides now and am pretty satisfied with the ride and setup so far for general trail riding. I ride UCSC if you're familiar, and while the Guide RE brakes are sufficient for up top on rolling terrain, they seem a little overwhelmed on the steeps (cobb). Wondering if anyone else has similar experience and suggestions for brakes with more stopping power. It has the 200 rotors front and back and would rather not have to replace those if possible. ???


----------



## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

IMO Shimano XT's blow guide's out of the water. Unfortunately you would have to spend money on some additional hardware, mounts and rotors, and possibly lever mounts depending on how your guides are mounted to the bars vs shifters. But seriously XT's are good. Get metallic pads with fins.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

I have a 2018 Levo Carbon Comp with the same brakes, as well as a Trek Remedy running 4 pot XT brakes. The XTs are so much better. Of course, the Butcher tires that come on these bikes suck too, but that's another story. 
Personally, I'm contemplating replacing my REs with Saints, which are supposed to be more powerful than the XT brakes. Just know that if you replace the brakes with something that isn't SRAM you'll need to get the bar mounts for your shifter and dropper.


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

rwdbkr said:


> Guide RE brakes are sufficient for up top on rolling terrain, they seem a little overwhelmed on the steeps (cobb). Wondering if anyone else has similar experience and suggestions for brakes with more stopping power. ???


I also suggest the XT Brakes, they feel more solid than the guides for most riders.


----------



## foresterLV (Dec 25, 2016)

brakes are somewhat personal feel.
personally I was replacing stock brakes with magura mt5 on all my bikes as I am somewhat heavy and like powerful brakes. some folks like XT. aand you can even use shiguras  - 



. 
you need to try different brakes most probably to get a feeling of it.


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Zee


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Get any downhill brake. Codes, zee, hope m4s. Any of those will be fine.


----------



## Zinfan (Jun 6, 2006)

I've just had my LBS order up a set of TRP e-bike specific brakes. https://trpcycling.com/product/g-spec-emtb/ Should be in and mounted up by next week. My Focus has two pot XT brakes so we shall see how the TRP's differ, I have test ridden a bike equipped with TRP Quadrium's before and liked how they felt. BTW the LBS looked the brakes up and it didn't show them in stock (they just came out this year) but they called TRP and they are available.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Shimano XT, 4-piston. These are truly, truly incredible. So strong and so consistent. And easy to maintain.

The other, even more powerful stop-a-train brake is the Magura 4-piston MT7.

Either case, get the 205mm rotors front and rear.


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

rwdbkr said:


> Been on a new 2018 Levo for a few rides now and am pretty satisfied with the ride and setup so far for general trail riding. I ride UCSC if you're familiar, and while the Guide RE brakes are sufficient for up top on rolling terrain, they seem a little overwhelmed on the steeps (cobb). Wondering if anyone else has similar experience and suggestions for brakes with more stopping power. It has the 200 rotors front and back and would rather not have to replace those if possible. ???


What most of the prior responses fail to understand is the Guide RE is just a rebranded older Code caliper with Guide R MC. The older Code caliper has the same piston sizes as the current. The Guide R lever is missing the swinglink which brings with it some added power and modulation.

I know all this because I have the same brakes on my Meta Power and while fine for the stuff most ride, the front is underpowered for the very long and very steep. I tried an older Guide RSC lever I has lying around and also got a 223 rotor but I still have to think about the front on the really long steeps (I know UCSC has some shorter steeps, great trails).

Personally I always found the Shimano brakes to be on/off light switches. I'm considering a Magura MT7 for the front. Amazing how 20lb of weight on the bikes dictates an appreciable difference in brakes.


----------



## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Just thinking out loud... and no offence... but you might have glazed pads or rotors if your Guide RE's lack the power you need. Or maybe you're just heating them up too much, relying on the brakes too much?

I've found my Guide RE's to have really strong stopping power from 30mph-0 in my experience...


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

AC/BC said:


> Just thinking out loud... and no offence... but you might have glazed pads or rotors if your Guide RE's lack the power you need. Or maybe you're just heating them up too much, relying on the brakes too much?
> 
> I've found my Guide RE's to have really strong stopping power from 30mph-0 in my experience...


I can't speak for the OP but not for me. I've tried SRAM organics, metallics. Even tried the Trickstuff power pads. Unless you've ridden mile long -40% gradients in the SoCal antigrip you probably don't get it. The Guide REs are good for 99% of what most folks riding, no question.


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Who even makes 9inch rotors anymore? I can't find anything readily available. I remember I ran some formula 9inch rotors on my DH bike about 7 years ago.

I think if you're under 180 pounds though 203 rotors should be fine on any ebike on steep trails.


----------



## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Gemini2k05 said:


> Who even makes 9inch rotors anymore?


Hope still makes 225mm rotors.

Also - most of the major brake companies are developing thicker rotors and calipers to handle the demands of ebikes so if you can wait, good stuff will be coming down the pipeline. Stuff that is marketed for the eBike market


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

AC/BC said:


> Hope still makes 225mm rotors.
> 
> Also - most of the major brake companies are developing thicker rotors and calipers to handle the demands of ebikes so if you can wait, good stuff will be coming down the pipeline. Stuff that is marketed for the eBike market


Seeing all the "e-bike" specific product coming out now really makes me feel like the bike market has been missing a trick for quite a while here. The weight difference between my e-bike and my regular bike is 20lbs. The weight difference between me and my brother is about 50 lbs. Meanwhile if I ride an e-bike and he rides a regular bike the market is saying I'm the one who needs stronger brakes, beefier wheels, etc, even though the bike/rider combo will weigh30lbs less and motor assist is capped at 20mph anyway. Just think, this whole "e-bike rated" market could have been explored years ago as a "clydesdale rated" market.


----------



## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

scatterbrained said:


> Just think, this whole "e-bike rated" market could have been explored years ago as a "clydesdale rated" market.


That's very true... although i prefer "American-size" rated  lol


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

AC/BC said:


> Just thinking out loud... and no offence... but you might have glazed pads or rotors if your Guide RE's lack the power you need. Or maybe you're just heating them up too much, relying on the brakes too much?
> 
> I've found my Guide RE's to have really strong stopping power from 30mph-0 in my experience...


I don't know about his bike, but riding my two bikes back to back the power difference between M8020s and Guide REs is significant. The Guides are the opposite of confidence inspiring. Sure they work, and after a while of riding my mind adjusts accordingly, but it's not ideal.


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

AC/BC said:


> Hope still makes 225mm rotors.
> 
> Also - most of the major brake companies are developing thicker rotors and calipers to handle the demands of ebikes so if you can wait, good stuff will be coming down the pipeline. Stuff that is marketed for the eBike market


Galfer makes a 223 in 2.0 thick. They just launched it recently...I had to buy it directly from them.


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

scatterbrained said:


> I don't know about his bike, but riding my two bikes back to back the power difference between M8020s and Guide REs is significant. The Guides are the opposite of confidence inspiring. Sure they work, and after a while of riding my mind adjusts accordingly, but it's not ideal.


Good feedback on the Shimanos. I've been super happy with just Guides and 203s on my regular bike for years now. I tried Shimano's years ago and couldn't jive with the lack of modulation. The servo wave is a step function change in leverage rate when the pads make contact. Have they improved modulation/changed the 'servo wave' design?


----------



## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Hayes Dominion A4, best brakes on the market.


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

scatterbrained said:


> , etc, even though the bike/rider combo will weigh30lbs less and motor assist is capped at 20mph anyway. Just think, this whole "e-bike rated" market could have been explored years ago as a "clydesdale rated" market.


Not quite. It's not just weight (although that's a huge factor). Your average speeds are a lot higher. So you have the added issues of consistently braking from a higher speed.


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> Hayes Dominion A4, best brakes on the market.


I was pretty jazzed about that brake too but while I usually place little credence on reviews, MTBR's issues left me less enthused: https://reviews.mtbr.com/hayes-dominion-a4-brakes-review


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> Hayes Dominion A4, best brakes on the market.


I've had old Hayes Stroker Ace 4-piston brakes for years on my DH bike. I honestly didn't know Hayes was still in the bike business.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Gemini2k05 said:


> Not quite. It's not just weight (although that's a huge factor). Your average speeds are a lot higher. So you have the added issues of consistently braking from a higher speed.


Not true at all, at least not for me. The e-bike assist stops at 20mph. Not exactly breakneck speeds, but also not speeds you'll be maintaining on twisty singletrack; even with the motor. The only area where I'm faster on my e-bike is going uphill (much, much faster). Going downhill the motor makes no difference to speed and in XC style singletrack the trail limits your speed, not the bike. The issues I have with the Guide REs relative to the Shimanos comes from descending. My braking points on familiar trails are all further from the corner with the Guides. There are a couple areas where you have very little time to get the bike slowed down and turned, while also heading sharply downhill. I often feel like I'm "tiptoeing" through these areas with the Guides as I try to keep from going over the side of the mountain. With the M8020s I feel much more confidant that I can haul the bike's speed down in time.

As far as the Shimano brakes being more "on/off" with less feel, I'd say that I can see that. Go faster, then it all evens out.  :lol:


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

craigsj said:


> Exactly. The trail limits the speed and the motor doesn't change the trail. The only thing significantly faster is climbing (still slow) where brakes aren't important. It's hard to imagine a situation where an e-bike actually requires significantly more brake than a non-assisted cousin. Racing in smooth, flat courses maybe, but who's doing that?
> 
> The "lot higher average speeds" is just another demonizing message against e-bikes and it's time to reject this kind of propaganda. In choosing brakes, consider the types of riding, not whether there is a motor. An e-bike only changes the requirement to the extent that it changes the kinds of trails a rider can enjoy.


Sorry I was also referring to commuter/road e-bikes, where much higher average speeds is a thing.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Gemini2k05 said:


> Sorry I was also referring to commuter/road e-bikes, where much higher average speeds is a thing.


Aren't they still limited to 20mph? I can spin at that speed just fine on my regular bikes. Until recently pro roadies were running rim brakes, and they tend to go pretty fast. Meanwhile, there are a ton of commuter e-bikes out here (San Diego) and they aren't running big brakes. Many are either running 160/160 or 180/160 rotors with two piston calipers.

I do wonder if there is an issue of overall bike/rider weight in the sense that maybe e-MTB buyers are less fit/heavier in general. I can see that argument making sense. I've not encountered too many e-MTBers so I can't say one way or the other. I can say that the additional weight penalty of heavier brakes simply isn't an issue when you've got an extra 250w you can tap into, which might be the main driver here.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

craigsj said:


> Exactly. ...... Racing in smooth, flat courses maybe, but who's doing that?
> 
> .......


UCI World Cup XC Short Track :lol:


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

scatterbrained said:


> Aren't they still limited to 20mph?


No, many go up to 28mph. But most brake setups on commuter bikes aren't designed to be braking a 50lb bike from 20mph to zero every 2-4 blocks for 30 minutes straight. Or down hills in cities like SF.

And even if they are limited to 20mph, I see almost zero people actually riding non-e-bike commuter bikes at that speed. The casual rider doesn't go above ~13mph usually.



scatterbrained said:


> Until recently pro roadies were running rim brakes, and they tend to go pretty fast.


Yes, but they are much much lighter (total system weight, rider+bike). Plus they aren't braking from 28mph to zero block after block like I do on my turbo vado.



scatterbrained said:


> Meanwhile, there are a ton of commuter e-bikes out here (San Diego) and they aren't running big brakes. Many are either running 160/160 or 180/160 rotors with two piston calipers.


Yes and they are woefully under braked if they are been ridden even moderately aggressively and have a full size man on them IMO. And definitely inadequate for the hills of SF. Especially if you start adding cargo racks/bags, heavy duty locks, etc.



scatterbrained said:


> I do wonder if there is an issue of overall bike/rider weight in the sense that maybe e-MTB buyers are less fit/heavier in general. I can see that argument making sense. I've not encountered too many e-MTBers so I can't say one way or the other.


No, that's not the case. Even the athletic e-bike riders I know have the same complaints.

And yes, the weight penalty of better brakes is trivial, even on a non-e-bike.


----------



## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

dodger said:


> I was pretty jazzed about that brake too but while I usually place little credence on reviews, MTBR's issues left me less enthused: https://reviews.mtbr.com/hayes-dominion-a4-brakes-review


You'll find good and bad reviews on everything, yet still people push garbage like SRAM Guides. I've had them for months now and they're legitimately the greatest brakes I've ever used.


----------



## dodger (Feb 10, 2004)

GRPABT1 said:


> You'll find good and bad reviews on everything, yet still people push garbage like SRAM Guides. I've had them for months now and they're legitimately the greatest brakes I've ever used.


4 years on Guides and many years before that on Elixirs and Juicy's with very few problems. Everybody's experience is unique but I've always loved my SRAM brakes. That said in 4 years of almost daily riding never once did I experience the failure mode they experienced here in a few short months.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Gemini2k05 said:


> No, many go up to 28mph. But most brake setups on commuter bikes aren't designed to be braking a 50lb bike from 20mph to zero every 2-4 blocks for 30 minutes straight. Or down hills in cities like SF.
> 
> And even if they are limited to 20mph, I see almost zero people actually riding non-e-bike commuter bikes at that speed. The casual rider doesn't go above ~13mph usually.
> 
> ...


And yet, we survived years of cantilever brakes, then V brakes, etc. All of which would be seen as woefully inadequate by today's standards and yet were hailed at their release as the greatest brakes ever. The real issue here is our ever evolving standards for what a brake should be. As cycling enthusiasts however I think we can't really speak for the majority of people out there buying commuter e-bikes. I see a ton of e-bike commuters out here, very few of whom are doing more than 10mph or so. They aren't going any faster than I would go on a normal bike, they're just doing it _effortlessly_. I've yet to see someone I would consider an avid cycling enthusiast on an e-commuter bike.

Tangential note here, while sitting outside at a restaurant the other day, we watched as an older woman in a sundress and big floppy hat effortlessly strolled up a hill on her white woman's e-bike with a flowery basket on the front with a poodle sitting inside. Watching her cruise past the two roadies who had clearly bonked and were struggling to get up the hill was delightfully hilarious.

Beyond that, I think we've strayed a fair bit, as the point was whether or not the OP should replace his Guide Re brakes. Which he definitely should. They suck.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I have the new 4 piston XT brakes with 200mm rotors front and back. Great brakes, no issues on super steep stuff. When my pads wear out, I’m going to try out metallic pads. If you want to stay with Sram, I’ve read great reviews on the Codes, that’s SRAM 4 piston brake.


----------



## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

dodger said:


> 4 years on Guides and many years before that on Elixirs and Juicy's with very few problems. Everybody's experience is unique but I've always loved my SRAM brakes. That said in 4 years of almost daily riding never once did I experience the failure mode they experienced here in a few short months.


The guides are fantastic when they work. The problems seem solely heat related and I live where it's hot af. I can totally understand good experiences.


----------



## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I have two Levos with the guide brakes. We went through the lever failures on both bikes after a trip to Moab last year. SRAM sent my LBS new levers. To say that another brand is going give more stopping power is probably an overstatement. In my case, a 52 lbs bike, 200 lbs rider, extra battery and camelback hawg plus spare parts is around 17 lbs. That is around 270 lbs stopping power from a 200mm rotor. I don't think there is much out there that would be better than that and I am very heavy on the brake usage. Especially since the Levo lets you double your average elevation per ride.


Anyway, I've found that the best formula on the Guide brakes are Metal sintered pads on the front and organic on the back. I get twice the miles from the front rotor with metal pads compared to the back with organic. Don't put metal on the back or you get the turkey warble. I do get air bubbles in the system every now and then. My theory is that, correct me if I am wrong, that the brake reservoir is not big enough to accommodate a worn out brake rotor and worn out pads. Since the system is four piston, the volume of oil needed is very high when all the pistons are extended not only from worn pads, but also worn rotors. I recently gave in and bought a bleeder kit so I can test my theory.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Shimano XT 4 pot. Final answer.


----------

