# It's time to discuss products



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Bosch or Brose, Levo or Powerfly?

That's what this forum is for and too many are taking the opportunity to post in every thread to proclaim why the ebike is the work of Satan.

Let's clean up this forum and allow folks to discuss products and not turn every thread into a religious war.

We'll appoint a few new mods and get allow folks to have product discussions.

fc


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Best news I've heard in a long time. Finally this forum can be what it should have been from the beginning. The new products that impressed me most at Interbike were Bosch, which reduced the weight of their motor by two pounds, from eight to six, and Surface 604 with a $2,000, 750w, e-fat bike in camo.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Got to try the stealth P7 a few weeks ago. Thing is a beast and has crazy power! Super fun with something like a 50 mph max speed. This is the only ebike I have been on that I actually thought might be worth buying. Everything else seems to be overweight and way beyond underpowered.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

singletrackmack said:


> Got to try the stealth P7 a few weeks ago. Thing is a beast and has crazy power! Super fun with something like a 50 mph max speed. This is the only ebike I have been on that I actually thought might be worth buying. Everything else seems to be overweight and way beyond underpowered.
> 
> View attachment 1159223


Link?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Stealth P-7 E-bike | Stealth Electric Bikes

Like many of it's type, it's not legally considered an ebike anywhere in the world, so I'm not sure if it should be discussed here. There's plenty of chinese clones of it on the market too.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

What the hell are you talking about? It is 100% legally considered an ebike on ORV trails.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> What the hell are you talking about? It is 100% legally considered an ebike on ORV trails.


Sure, it's just not an ebike, the nominal rating on the motor is too high. Read up on the legal definitions of what is an ebike.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Wow, that's one spendy mofo. Interesting that they call it a "commuter" and "stealth".


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

This is why ebike dissent needs to continue to be allowed.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

singletrackmack said:


> Got to try the stealth P7 a few weeks ago. Thing is a beast and has crazy power! Super fun with something like a 50 mph max speed. This is the only ebike I have been on that I actually thought might be worth buying. Everything else seems to be overweight and way beyond underpowered.
> 
> View attachment 1159223


The website says 45km/h max speed.

That's 28mph, which happens to be the exact limit of a "Class 2" ebike.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Class 3 actually. Stealth has been pimping product for over 5 years. 

There are a few companies that are getting it right. I'm most impressed with Focus's offerings. Their drop bar bikes are cool but limited due to EU restrictions. E road bikes need to be Class 3 or why bother and the small motors they have will not cut that mustard. 

But at least there is starting to be some movement towards drop bar e bikes and having ridden them for the last year I feel they are perhaps the best application of the genre if done right.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Those that want to rant, rave, cry and whine should be allowed to initiate their own thread and do so; just don't infest any other threads or maybe fc will give the word to ban them immediately.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Those that want to rant, rave, cry and whine should be allowed to initiate their own thread and do so; just don't infest any other threads or maybe fc will give the word to ban them immediately.


You must see something that I don't.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

fos'l said:


> The new products that impressed me most at Interbike were Bosch, which reduced the weight of their motor by two pounds


For now it's only the "Active" line that benefit of this.

We can hope that the Performance line will follow next year with maybe weight reduction and without the internal 2.5x reduction.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

fos'l said:


> Those that want to rant, rave, cry and whine should be allowed to initiate their own thread and do so; just don't infest any other threads or maybe fc will give the word to ban them immediately.


Whining and crying like you are now? Start by banning yourself.

How about this review-looks like an absolute POS. Way to heavy. Looks like an Old Trek Y frame.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's actually not much like a y-bike (which indeed were terrible). Those were URTs. This *appears* to be using a single pivot at the crank axle (same as a dirtbike, though those have a better axle path because the crankshaft sits quite a bit higher). 

It has the advantage of being *really* simple and relatively stiff/light with (this is key) zero chain growth through the stroke. It will pedal pretty poorly (loads of squat) but that might be a *feature* (easy/fun to get the front end up) if you've got a motor providing most of the power. 

-Walt


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

EricTheDood said:


> The website says 45km/h max speed.
> 
> That's 28mph, which happens to be the exact limit of a "Class 2" ebike.


Looks like Stealth Tahoe has a different set up for the P7 they sell. Here is the link for the stealth bikes set up from stealth tahoe. Just scroll down to the P7. There are a lot of different options for set up though.

https://stealthtahoe.com/stealth-bikes/

Here is a screen shot of a few of the specs:


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Harryman said:


> Stealth P-7 E-bike | Stealth Electric Bikes
> 
> Like many of it's type, it's not legally considered an ebike anywhere in the world, so I'm not sure if it should be discussed here. There's plenty of chinese clones of it on the market too.


How so? It is a bicycle with an electric motor. Where in the world is that considered to not legally be called an ebike?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> How so? It is a bicycle with an electric motor. Where in the world is that considered to not legally be called an ebike?


It's got a 1000w motor, a throttle and a 28mph cut off.

With the demand to use electric bikes on existing bike infrastructure, a subset of lower powered electric motorized bicycles was created in Europe so they could be treated as bicycles and they were reclassified as Pedelecs and then S-pedelecs.

In Europe/UK, Pedelcs are 250w/15.5 mph, no throttle, or S-pedelcs, 250w/28mph no throttle.

In the US, the federal classification is 750w/20mph under motor power alone. Some form of it is still used in some states to define an ebike or electrically assisted bicycle, in other states, they've adapted the CA model, which is sort of a combo of the EU regs and federal.

Class 1 is 750w/20 mph no throttle
Class 2 is 750w/20 mph and throttle
Class 3 is 750w/28 mph no throttle

You can wade through here as well if you're interested, there is some variation from place to place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

Basically, the higher power (1000w) and the fact that is has a throttle combined with a 28mph cut off means that it's still in the motorized bicycle catagory, not an ebike as defined by whatever laws are in place where you live.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Interesting. So is stealth bikes doing something illegal by calling their bikes "ebikes"? Could they be cited, fined or imprisoned for this? If not, then there is nothing illegal about saying they sell "ebikes".


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

No, you would just be doing something illegal by riding it on any kind of trail.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> Interesting. So is stealth bikes doing something illegal by calling their bikes "ebikes"? Could they be cited, fined or imprisoned for this? If not, then there is nothing illegal about saying they sell "ebikes".


They could call them rutabegas and it wouldn't change what they are. 

It all depends on a lot of things, mainly where they are selling them and what they claim they are. They could get fined in the EU for example, where you have to prove what you claim, but no one is going to be arrested. They and other manufacturers get around it by stating something like "for offroad ohv use only" or "for use on private property", but the buyer is the one who is left on the hook.

Posts relating to poaching and illegal trails are squashed on mtbr since they are a threat to mtb access, it would seem logical to me that since emtb access relies on people riding low powered, PAS ebikes, high powered electric bikes would be considered a threat to the emtb community and left to those sites where people don't care.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

^just read this article and I now realize how complicated ebikes are.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/426969/


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

What I see are lbb and others that troll every e-thread and turn them into crap. Mr fc just said, "No more". Hopefully he'll have mod(s) that get rid of your crap and send you back under your rock.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Loser sf fan, how about doing what you do best and sending me another private message just to call me a dirty name, since you don't ever say anything of any substance on the threads? You're just another crybaby that hopefully will be excised for trolling.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Harryman pretty much has it covered; I might add that Class 3 are NOT permitted anywhere regular bikes can go; they are only allowed on bike trails if the controlling agency gives specific permission. However Class 3 are allowed to use roadside parallel bike lanes.

Perhaps these Stealth dudes in Australia can be forgiven for not fully understanding USA laws; I suspect there may be a lot of disappointed USA purchasers though.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Posts relating to poaching and illegal trails are squashed on mtbr since they are a threat to mtb access, it would seem logical to me that since emtb access relies on people riding low powered, PAS ebikes, high powered electric bikes would be considered a threat to the emtb community and left to those sites where people don't care.


I agree with this. Posting about riding ebikes, either on trails where they are not allowed or exceeding allowed wattage, should be squashed.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

fos'l said:


> Loser sf fan, how about doing what you do best and sending me another private message just to call me a dirty name, since you don't ever say anything of any substance on the threads? You're just another crybaby that hopefully will be excised for trolling.


How can you not see that you are the only person on here not following what FC said. They only allow one private messages or else I would send many more. 
Just to keep with the rules. I would rather just have a regular bike than that e-thing anyway, it looks ridiculous.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> Looks like Stealth Tahoe has a different set up for the P7 they sell. Here is the link for the stealth bikes set up from stealth tahoe. Just scroll down to the P7. There are a lot of different options for set up though.
> 
> https://stealthtahoe.com/stealth-bikes/
> 
> ...


If you did that screenshot today they've already changed the P-7 specs to fall within the legal range. But it still appears to have a throttle which negates Class 3.

The way it's spec'd in Aus it's no way Class 3 legal. Probably not even moped legal. To ride them OHV in California they'd need to be registered with a "green sticker".

Stealth and their clones are why e-bikes will be banned in many MTB riding areas. From across a parking lot a ranger can't tell the difference between a P-7 and a F-37. Ban them all!


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

fc said:


> Bosch or Brose, Levo or Powerfly?
> 
> That's what this forum is for and too many are taking the opportunity to post in every thread to proclaim why the ebike is the work of Satan.
> 
> ...


Well I have ridden a Levo with the Brose motor; very nice! A buddy just bought a top o' the line carbon 2018 Levo and it looks to be even nicer.

Googling Levo's in the rest of the world turns up some unhappy campers though; in rainy England they seem to have a high failure rate and the bike shops aren't up to speed on fixing these new technologies.

At the other end of the spectrum the DIY market shouldn't be ignored, if one is "handy" you'll get twice the bike at half the price.

Also these fringe bikes are going to be causing the same kinds of access problems the "Stealth" variety will.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Mookie said:


> This is why ebike dissent needs to continue to be allowed.


Absolutely. Some of these sound like e-motos not mtbs.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> What I see are lbb and others that troll every e-thread and turn them into crap. Mr fc just said, "No more". Hopefully he'll have mod(s) that get rid of your crap and send you back under your rock.


Speaking of trolling


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

singletrackmack said:


> Looks like Stealth Tahoe has a different set up for the P7 they sell. Here is the link for the stealth bikes set up from stealth tahoe. Just scroll down to the P7. There are a lot of different options for set up though.
> 
> https://stealthtahoe.com/stealth-bikes/
> 
> ...


Okay, yea that's completely ridiculous.

I'm in the camp that Class 1 e-bikes should be allowed everywhere an MTB is allowed, and when I see an ebike being advertised as having an 80kph top speed, I shake my head with the rest of the anti-ebikers.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

fc said:


> Let's clean up this forum
> 
> fc


I get your point but this is ironic as long as the Norcal forum exists in its current state.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

silentfoe said:


> i get your point but this is ironic as long as the norcal forum exists in its current state.
> 
> Sent from my sm-g955u using tapatalk


bravo!


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