# Any Onyx Vesper users yet? Reviews?



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Like the title says -- has anyone received and ridden the new Onyx Vesper rear hub? any reviews anywhere?

Onyx is being really quiet and the only info is from NOBL.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

From my email: "orders will start shipping to us the first week of June. We have them set to ship out express in order to get them as soon as we can."

It should be any day now. I'm _all _excited.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Waiting...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

I have them on order with my LBS and Derby rims, can't wait! I was told they might arrive this week but that didn't happen.


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

I called them last week. Long story short, the hubs aren't out yet. They ran into manufacturing delays. Shooting for end of June now I believe. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm over it. 
Going with 321s again. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm over it.
> Going with 321s again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


The new I9's with a tiny bit of Dumonde Tech Pro X grease are nearly dead quiet (Cannot hear them on the trail at all), and the engagement feels instant. Identical to Onyx. Big difference from Torch's IMO.


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

Streetdoctor said:


> The new I9's with a tiny bit of Dumonde Tech Pro X grease are nearly dead quiet (Cannot hear them on the trail at all), and the engagement feels instant. Identical to Onyx. Big difference from Torch's IMO.


Whoa, really? I'd like to hear more. Is that something that requires maintenance to keep quiet?


----------



## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

ahkim said:


> Whoa, really? I'd like to hear more. Is that something that requires maintenance to keep quiet?


I just put them on my DH bike (after running multiple sets of torch's over the years). So far I only have one super dusty park day on it and it's still dead quiet. I literally used a tiny dab of grease. I'm headed to Whistler next week where I'll get a better idea of how long it lasts. I'm going to add some to the Torch's on my trail bike to see the difference as well. So far I'm super impressed. The Hydras without the grease are definitely more quiet than Torch's even and the engagement difference is very noticeable.


----------



## Glenngineer (Mar 4, 2014)

Really glad I went Hydras vs. waiting - I've been riding them for a month, they're lighter, and the sound level and engagement are great. I haven't taken the step to grease them yet - I don't like the angry bee thing and found Torches pretty obnoxious, the Hydras are much less intrusive.


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

Glenngineer said:


> Really glad I went Hydras vs. waiting - I've been riding them for a month, they're lighter, and the sound level and engagement are great. I haven't taken the step to grease them yet - I don't like the angry bee thing and found Torches pretty obnoxious, the Hydras are much less intrusive.


I just saw this and it's pretty incredible what a bit of grease does to quiet it down. Watch at 1:58.

I'm going to talk with my shop to see how long Onyx is delayed. I like that I don't have to do anything with grease to get them to be quiet.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Anything yet? End of June has come and gone!

Onyx Racing -- take my money!!


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I got a ups tracking number today. Should arrive tomorrow!


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

My LBS just told me that it'll ship next week, looking forward to some silent hubs with some wide Derby rims.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

My three favorite words: "Out for delivery."


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Nat said:


> My three favorite words: "Out for delivery."


Post pics for the rest of us to drool over...............


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

It came in a nice box:









With some nice packaging:









There were some spare spokes, several stickers, and a T-shirt (the shirt went into the washing machine before I took a picture):









I ordered black chrome powdercoat finish. This looks like matte black to me but it looks sweet anyway.

















They came with valves installed. I like the little NOBL crown:

















I'm waiting on some new Vittoria tires to arrive at before I mount everything up. I was originally planning to run a set of slightly-worn Maxxis tread that I already have but then I decided I just can't install old, dirty rubber on clean, new wheels.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Streetdoctor said:


> The new I9's with a tiny bit of Dumonde Tech Pro X grease are nearly dead quiet (Cannot hear them on the trail at all), and the engagement feels instant. Identical to Onyx. Big difference from Torch's IMO.


Calling bullshit on this. I've got i9 Hydras and while greasing the pawls silences them for a short period of time, they're loud AF again within a few miles. They do engage super nicely, I'll give them that.


----------



## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

MegaStoke said:


> Calling bullshit on this. I've got i9 Hydras and while greasing the pawls silences them for a short period of time, they're loud AF again within a few miles. They do engage super nicely, I'll give them that.


Serious question out of my own ignorance, but aren't they pretty specific about which grease you should use for quieting them and still getting some longevity?


----------



## manteufel (Oct 27, 2017)

Did you use the same grease...curious about this because I am debating between the Onyx and Hydras, but I do not want a Hub that is too loud. 

Would you say the I9 are louder than dt350(36t)?

Looking forward for a review of the new Onyx.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

manteufel said:


> Did you use the same grease...curious about this because I am debating between the Onyx and Hydras, but I do not want a Hub that is too loud.
> 
> Would you say the I9 are louder than dt350(36t)?
> 
> Looking forward for a review of the new Onyx.


I use the recommended Dumonde Tech free hub grease. I've also tried other greases with similar, if not worse results. Grease certainly quiets it down for a while, but it gets back to annoying levels in short order. Like under 100 miles and it's fully back to full volume. And It's not just the volume, which isn't really that loud per se, but the character of the sound that gets to me. It's a high pitched whine that my riding buddies have likened to an air raid siren.

I bought into the "grease quiets the Hydras down to almost silent" BS, and now I'm looking to sell them because the sound drives me nuts.

Anyone want to buy a set of Derby 35i 29" carbon hoops laced to boost centerlock xd hydras? They're in good shape, the sound just pisses me off now that I'm addicted to silent hubs.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

TheBaldBlur said:


> Serious question out of my own ignorance, but aren't they pretty specific about which grease you should use for quieting them and still getting some longevity?


Yep and I'm using the recommended grease, the dumonde tech stuff. The pawls displace it and no longer run quietly in short order.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

MegaStoke said:


> Yep and I'm using the recommended grease, the dumonde tech stuff. The pawls displace it and no longer run quietly in short order.


I've had similar experiences with my DT-Swss 350's. Clean them up, lube them up with the recommended lube in the recommended quantity and they are nice and quiet -- for 2 rides then they get noisy again.


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

Thanks to all for sharing that the grease seems to be a temp fix. I'm glad I waited for the Onyx hubs.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Test how they roll for us on the stand? Just a back spin test. They need to be broken in a bit first however. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

MegaStoke said:


> And It's not just the volume, which isn't really that loud per se, but the character of the sound that gets to me. It's a high pitched whine that my riding buddies have likened to an air raid siren.
> .


Your comment made me go look for videos. Holy crap, you're right. You could also say it sounds like a screaming baby. The torch has a high pitch too but it's muted by the buzz.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

*Let's keep this thread on track and focused on Onyx....lot's of other threads out there on other hubs.*

Nat -- any first ride impressions?

ahkim -- did you get yours yet?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

spec306 said:


> *Let's keep this thread on track and focused on Onyx....lot's of other threads out there on other hubs.*
> 
> Nat -- any first ride impressions?
> 
> ahkim -- did you get yours yet?


I'm waiting on some new tires to arrive tomorrow then I'll mount up the wheels. I already have a set of wheels with the previous generation of Onyx hubs though, and I wasn't expecting to feel any difference in motion with the new wheels, just lighter weight in-hand. I do LOVE the previous Onyx hubs, hence the second wheelset. Rolling through the woods totally silent is sublime. I would have a hard time going back to the loud RIIIIriiiiiRIIIIriiiii of other freewheels.


----------



## jlewand3 (Dec 19, 2016)

Mine arrived yesterday and had a quick question while setting everything up. After installing my GX cassette, I flipped over the wheel and the cassette and XD driver slid off the hub. Are their hubs non-locking? Just want to triple check that I didn't forget a step! 
Thanks!


----------



## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

MegaStoke said:


> Calling bullshit on this. I've got i9 Hydras and while greasing the pawls silences them for a short period of time, they're loud AF again within a few miles. They do engage super nicely, I'll give them that.


Call bullshit if you like. I greased these before leaving for whistler. I rode about 300 miles in the park (with a couple rain days) on this bike and this is currently what they sound like compared to a Torch hub. Maybe you ride within rivers? Or don't know what you're doing? On the trail, you can not hear them freewheel.






I'm not interested in the Derbys but I'll take those hubs off your hands if you break them down.


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

These Vesper hubs look really nice. I'm going to be on the prowl for a deal, hopefully build up a set in the next 18 months. My DT hubs are reliable but loud!

I'm thinking, Vesper rear, DT 350 front with Onyx stickers. There's nothing a $200 front hub can do that a $60 one can't, shrug.


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Schulze said:


> These Vesper hubs look really nice. I'm going to be on the prowl for a deal, hopefully build up a set in the next 18 months. My DT hubs are reliable but loud!
> 
> I'm thinking, Vesper rear, DT 350 front with Onyx stickers. There's nothing a $200 front hub can do that a $60 one can't, shrug.


I'm in a similar situation. I've been using DT 350s on my bikes for some time. Love the low cost, reliability, and ease of maintenance; hate the noise.

I've been watching (and waiting) since Onyx first leaked the development of these in September 2017. At one point these were slated to be a less expensive variant of their regular hub, but it looks like that didn't pan out. It looks like they are actually more expensive when the extra cost of ceramic bearings is taken into account (not that I would get them). So I'll be on the lookout for deals as well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Two rides so far. I love the wheels but these Martello tires blow. So slippery. They’re coming off immediately.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

jlewand3 said:


> Mine arrived yesterday and had a quick question while setting everything up. After installing my GX cassette, I flipped over the wheel and the cassette and XD driver slid off the hub. Are their hubs non-locking? Just want to triple check that I didn't forget a step!
> Thanks!


Do you mean like this? Mine fell apart too.


----------



## jlewand3 (Dec 19, 2016)

Nat said:


> Do you mean like this? Mine fell apart too.
> 
> View attachment 1263059


Yuuuup!! Exactly like that!
I triple checked to make sure everything is seated correctly.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

It caught me by surprise when the cassette and everything else fell onto the floor.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Nat said:


> It caught me by surprise when the cassette and everything else fell onto the floor.


Just curious if anyone has talked with Onyx about this yet. Doesn't seem quite right, but I guess with the axle in place and everything clamped in the frame, it might not make a difference. Just curious...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Just curious if anyone has talked with Onyx about this yet. Doesn't seem quite right, but I guess with the axle in place and everything clamped in the frame, it might not make a difference. Just curious...


I suppose I should contact them about it.


----------



## newboy04 (Aug 6, 2005)

I just got my Onyx/Vesper wheels with TR33 rims today and set them up tubeless with new Maxxis DHF/Aggressor rubber.

Took a spin around the block and these wheels rock! Smooooth action and a truly joyful riding experience with the low drag, quiet operation, and instant engagement. Can't wait to take them out on the trails. On a side note, really digging the new Maxxis rubber as well. I can feel the extra traction/confidence even on pavement vs. my Ardents and the rolling resistance really didn't feel that much draggier.

Addressing the concerns above, I think these hubs have pressfit end caps which allows the takedown of the axle and freehub simply by removing the caps. Once mounted in the fork and bike they are rock solid and roll true.

Been waiting for these since the prototype was shown years ago and so far it has been everything I had hoped for! Will try to follow up with a trail report.


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

newboy04 said:


> Addressing the concerns above, I think these hubs have pressfit end caps which allows the takedown of the axle and freehub simply by removing the caps.


Obviously. But they shouldn't just fall apart. Maybe there are O rings missing and it's a very simple fix. If not, that's garbage. You're supposed to worry about your hub internals falling into the dirt if you have to remove your wheel on the trail to insert a tube?


----------



## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

Nat said:


> Do you mean like this? Mine fell apart too.
> 
> View attachment 1263059


Dude, between this and your posted inability to remove your tire from the rim, I'd say you majorly pissed off some wheel-deity.

Consider making a sacrifice to the wheel-deity in hopes of making things right. I'd start by burning a picture of FoShizzle

And to further get off topic, I have Hydras and Torch. The Hydras are a lot quieter than Torch and the pitch is also less irritating, but I wouldn't call Hydra silent.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

92gli said:


> Obviously. But they shouldn't just fall apart. Maybe there are O rings missing and it's a very simple fix. If not, that's garbage. You're supposed to worry about your hub internals falling into the dirt if you have to remove your wheel on the trail to insert a tube?


Having owned 5 sets of the legacy onyx hubs, there are no internals that are just going to "fall into the dirt" when driver is removed...the sprags are not just rattling around loosely in the hub shell. That said, my concern would be that the O-rings are not providing adequate seal to keep the bad out....


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

The Squeaky Wheel said:


> Dude, between this and your posted inability to remove your tire from the rim, I'd say you majorly pissed off some wheel-deity.
> 
> Consider making a sacrifice to the wheel-deity in hopes of making things right. I'd start by burning a picture of FoShizzle
> 
> And to further get off topic, I have Hydras and Torch. The Hydras are a lot quieter than Torch and the pitch is also less irritating, but I wouldn't call Hydra silent.


Ha, yeah really!


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

tdc_worm said:


> Having owned 5 sets of the legacy onyx hubs, there are no internals that are just going to "fall into the dirt" when driver is removed...the sprags are not just rattling around loosely in the hub shell. That said, my concern would be that the O-rings are not providing adequate seal to keep the bad out....


That is my concern as well. My DT-350s provide a really tight seal and holds the driver side in there tight. I have to give it a good yank with both hands to pop it off. There is no way the driver side would just fall out like that.

Nat -- let us know what Onyx has to say.


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

spec306 said:


> That is my concern as well. My DT-350s provide a really tight seal and holds the driver side in there tight. I have to give it a good yank with both hands to pop it off. There is no way the driver side would just fall out like that.
> 
> Nat -- let us know what Onyx has to say.


That's not quite how it works. On DT hubs the drive side end cap has an o-ring (or something that acts like a detent) that keeps it from falling off. I'm sure the ratchet seal adds some resistance, but it doesn't hold the driveshell in place.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

This is what I've heard from NOBL so far: "The new Vesper hubs have a press fit driver and end caps similar to DT-Swiss system. This new system doesn't feature a lock ring on the end caps like the previous version does, you're not missing any parts. The end caps and driver are deigned to come out easily, but not that easily. We've reached out to Onyx regrading the issue and we're working out a solution for you."

I'll keep you guys updated.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

compengr said:


> That's not quite how it works. On DT hubs the drive side end cap has an o-ring (or something that acts like a detent) that keeps it from falling off. I'm sure the ratchet seal adds some resistance, but it doesn't hold the driveshell in place.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Ah -- you're right. I thought the driver snapped in but it is the end cap that snaps in and holds it all together. Guess its been too long since I serviced my hubs


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

From NOBL: "Regarding the endcap, Onyx official word is that sometimes the O-ring doesn't seat itself properly on the axle, and therefore it doesn't bind and hold everything together. The solution is to make sure that O-ring is seated. Simply rotating and jiggling this endcap should allow it to seat correctly and then it should all hold together."


----------



## newboy04 (Aug 6, 2005)

Just finished a 10 mile sesh here in uber flat rooty terrain country where its also 91F but feels like 100F thanks to face-melting humidity.

This will be more a first impressions on my overall setup since quite a bit has changed from my previous setup so changes can't be attributed solely to the hubs since quite a bit of rotational weight came off as well. This is on a SB4.5 rig.

Old: DT Swiss M1900 with I think a 3-pawl hub and alu rims. Maxxis Ardent front and rear.
New: Nobl TR33 with Onyx Vesper. DHF 2.3 front and Aggressor 2.3 rear.
Overall weight change ~0 lbs

Ladies and gentlemen, the hype is real. To me, these wheels are a transformative setup. It is my first time on a sprag-based system but everything I have read about it are true. I had a lot of thoughts on the trail so I'll try to hit on some of my key findings.

1. Feel: The best way to describe the feel of this new setup is that my feet had a direct connection to the ground and the bike felt like it was on rails (better tires contribute to this as well). Almost like the ground was an extension of the gearing of the bike itself and every pedal stroke translated into direct movement. There is not much elevation change to speak of where I rode, but on the few steep ups and downs littered with roots I was able to clear these with ease whereas a combination of the lower POE/higher rotational weight of the old wheels had me struggling at times. Magic carpet ride isn't too much hyperbole is it?

2. Shifting: I feel like one of effects of sprags that I haven't seen touched on much is how it transforms the feel of the shifting and suspension. Due to the infinite POE and 'softer' engagement, my perception of the shifting operation was much smoother and less herky-jerky in relation to my pedal strokes. With the old hubs sometimes you get the harsh 'ping' when you ratchet pedals or change gears and the cadence doesn't quite match your pedal stroke and you suddenly hit the engagement points. With the Vesper the whole system feels silky smooth with enhanced shift feel.

3. Vibration: This includes frequencies in the audible spectrum and physical vibrations transmitted through the frame as well. The quietness of hub was really highlighted when I noticed rear suspension sounds and cable rattling that I had not really noticed before. Pounding through root gardens is a much different experience now that the residual noises of the hub is eliminated and all you hear is the dirt, tires, and suspension. Another effect is the lack of vibration felt through your touch points on the bike as well, which like the lack of noise you don't really notice until its not there.

4. Speed: So the net overall change of the weight of my bike was basically zero, since lighter rims were offset by heavier hubs and tires. However, the bike gathered speed much faster and cranked up steeps with much less inertia. Hauling ass on these wheels were a pleasure with the infinite POE and coasting at speed a really cool experience with silence and low drag. You can smash on the pedals at any speed and the engagement is virtually instant despite whatever perceived or actual wind-up effect that people have been writing about.

So those are most my first impressions. Durability/longevity and reliability will be revealed/proven over time so I can't comment on those now so you probably just have to extrapolate from Onyx's track record, which is as good as anyone else as far as I can tell.

I love these wheels. They are a step change over anything else I've tried and I'm glad the wait since the prototype was revealed is over and I can count myself among the Onyx/Sprag riders!


----------



## boylagz (Sep 28, 2008)

Had the orig. Onyx hubs on my Warden few years back with Nox rims, best setup Ive had. Im glad the new ones are lighter, makes me wanna get a set for my Patrol. Sick sick sick.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Nat said:


> From NOBL: "Regarding the endcap, Onyx official word is that sometimes the O-ring doesn't seat itself properly on the axle, and therefore it doesn't bind and hold everything together. The solution is to make sure that O-ring is seated. Simply rotating and jiggling this endcap should allow it to seat correctly and then it should all hold together."


Did you get a chance to fiddle around with the end cap? Is it fixed?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

spec306 said:


> Did you get a chance to fiddle around with the end cap? Is it fixed?


I popped off the endcap, noted the presence of the O-ring, popped the cap back on, and nothing has fallen apart after that. I guess it's fixed?


----------



## rushman3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Newboy4

Thanks for the detailed review. These hubs and carbon wheels will be the next upgrade on my Stache.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

spec306 said:


> Did you get a chance to fiddle around with the end cap? Is it fixed?





Nat said:


> I popped off the endcap, noted the presence of the O-ring, popped the cap back on, and nothing has fallen apart after that. I guess it's fixed?


Nope. It still comes apart easily. I was doing a tire change and when I was flipping the wheel around in my hands to distribute the sealant around the hub fell apart in a few pieces. One endcap went bouncing across the garage under the car so I'm glad I had eyes on it the whole time. I got an early release model so maybe they'll change something in the design to keep things tighter? Take precautions when you guys play with yours!


----------



## laserjockrock (Jun 22, 2015)

newboy04 said:


> Just finished a 10 mile sesh here in uber flat rooty terrain country where its also 91F but feels like 100F thanks to face-melting humidity.
> 
> Old: DT Swiss M1900 with I think a 3-pawl hub and alu rims. Maxxis Ardent front and rear.
> New: Nobl TR33 with Onyx Vesper. DHF 2.3 front and Aggressor 2.3 rear.
> ...


Thanks for this!!
I think the most interesting part of your post is the fact that you noticed improved speed and rolling resistance - but that your new tires (DHF) have considerably more drag than the previous (Ardent). That says quite a thing about the performance (lack-of-friction) of the new Onyx hubs...
Please keep posting any new insights. This has me very interested as a potential upgrade!


----------



## benja55 (Aug 10, 2005)

newboy04 said:


> I love these wheels. They are a step change over anything else I've tried and I'm glad the wait since the prototype was revealed is over and I can count myself among the Onyx/Sprag riders!


This is a great write-up, and matches my experience on 3 sets of pre-Vesper Onyx hubs. Once you get used to the Onyx feel and engagement, everything else feels a bit "off", though I do actually really like the I9 Hydras too.

I'm not currently in the market for new wheels, but when the time comes I'll likely go with the Vespers, assuming the QC is solid. I don't like seeing pictures of hubs falling apart. :eekster:


----------



## ahkim (May 13, 2019)

So I got my new wheels today! Keep in mind that I had the Ibis carbon wheelset and hubs so I wasn't expecting a big difference but I really wanted the Onyx hubs. Went on a ride and the silence is nice. I was riding behind someone for a couple mins and they had no idea I was behind them. The engagement is excellent but I didn't think it was a drastic difference. The bike felt noticeably heavier just lifting it but I also felt like it wasn't as snappy in terms of acceleration, not for sure though. I'll post updates again later.

























I shot a video just to show the silence of the hub. You'll hear another rider at the beginning for comparison.


----------



## bonzoo (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks for your update  Can you check if your hub is coming apart (too) easily? 

Thanks


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

I have benefited from the info on MTBR for a long time but have posted maybe once. This is the only place on the web I could find substantive info about the new Vesper hubs. Thanks for that!

I just received a wheel set direct from Onyx. 100x15 and 142x12 with Arch rims. I emailed and eventually called to complete the order. Great service and I was happy to work with fellow Minnesotans. They answered all of my questions. It really seems like a great company.

I am looking forward to getting the rims taped and shod with new rubber. Not sure when that will happen but hopefully soon! I will post back with reports. Really looking forward to a silent ride in the woods.















PS: the drive body does seem to be "captured" by the seals and indents on the axle for the endcap. It does come off with a bit of effort and no tools. Personally, I like that feature.
I will post more when I get a cassette on it. FWIW, the SRAM Roam 40 rear hub currently on my bike drops the cassette easily too. I just try to be careful when removing the wheel.


----------



## newboy04 (Aug 6, 2005)

Yo that color is fire, powdercoat orange?


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

newboy04 said:


> Yo that color is fire, powdercoat orange?


No, the color on the picture is a bit off. They are the standard Orange Fluorescent powdercoat. The color is slightly lighter and slightly less red in reality.


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

Such a bummer, having trouble getting my XD cassette off of my old wheels. I was hoping to be able to reuse the cassette and chain because I don't think they are quite beat yet. Alas the curse of the XD driver has me sitting with the wheels with new tires and rotors mounted but no drivetrain. Drag.

Does anyone have words of wisdom for removing stubborn XD cassettes? I have tried lost of muscle and body weight, penetrating oil. The bike shop tried a long breaker bar right before close last night. It have been sitting over night with WD-40 and whatever magic penetrating oil stuff the bike shop had (they said they had some stuff you can only get if you're a bike shop). I might try cooling it down in the freezer to see it that might help it. I'm all out of ideas.

I did weigh the wheels using my daughter's baking scale. The front (100x15 32 hole, Stan's Arch Mk3, Sapim alum nipples and Sapim Race spokes, no tape) is 834g. The rear (same specs) is 1064g. Seems reasonable to me but I don't really pay much attention to weight.

If I have to buy a new cassette, I am thinking I might switch to a HG freehub body just for ease of use. I'll cross my fingers that Onyx might let me trade an unused XD driver for and HG. I am going to search the forums for how a Shimano or Sunrace HG 11 speed hub will work with a SRAM X0 derailleur. Hate to buy another XD after this experience and all of the tales of woe I have read today.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

I am placing my order for just a rear Vesper and will have my LBS re-lace my current ENVE XC rims. I am replacing the DT-350 I started with.

My question for the new Vesper owners, particularly those coming from Gen 1 Onyx, do you recommend the ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade? From what I can tell the Gen 1s came with the hybrid ceramic as standard where it is now an upgrade option for the Vesper. For the Gen1 crowd, were they durable? Did they last? Did they require more maintenance than steel?

I ride just all XC these days on dry fireroads in the Santa Cruz mtns and tend to be a fair weather rider so I don't expect these to see mud or water crossings. Maybe the once in a while water crossing at Downieville.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

The ceramic bearings that came in my original Onyx hubs are still rolling fast and smooth after about 4000 miles of abusive riding. Lots of fully loaded bikepacking on a hardtail, rain or shine, with dozens of river fords and more hard hits than I can count. I’m not sure if I can attribute the durability of the bearings to their being ceramic, but I can attest to them holding up well for me.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I did need to replace the original bearings in my gen. 1 rear hub. The mechanic at the LBS explained to me that they were a hybrid rather than a full ceramic? I never bothered to read up on different bearing types but they replaced the originals with the stainless steel bearings they had in stock since I didn't want to order ceramics and wait. Honestly I couldn't tell any difference in rolling resistance after I switched.

My Vespers have the basic s/s bearings and they feel pretty darned good. Since I couldn't tell a difference with the gen.1 hubs I decided not to upgrade to ceramic bearings in the Vespers.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Generally, it seems that a "full ceramic" bearing is a bad choice for mountain biking. The issue is if the race is ceramic, rather than hardened steel, it is more brittle and a hard hit such as a big drop or a hard curb/rock hit can cause the race to crack.

A "ceramic hybrid" uses the same ceramic balls as a full ceramic but uses a hardened steel race which is still softer than the ceramic balls. While it is not subject to cracking like the full ceramic may be it is subject to more wear from the harder ceramic balls digging in and creating a deeper groove and side play over time.

Overall, however, it sounds like a hybrid ceramic can last longer and spin more freely than a steel bearing. Is it worth the $100 upgrade? Eh....maybe, maybe not. More of a personal choice as it seems as the gain from going hybrid ceramic might be minuscule.

I am no expert -- this is just from some casual internet searching but it seems legit.


----------



## fmendes (Jun 25, 2016)

tomtoday said:


> Does anyone have words of wisdom for removing stubborn XD cassettes?


Maybe. I had problems once with a cassette that was installed with torque too low, that marred and gauged the spline of the XD drive. Then the cassette enters that gauging, and won't come off by breaking the torque. You may have to remove the freehub with the cassette (ok if you have the axle too), then grab the freehub with a pipe wrench and rotate in the opposite direction of the engagement. When it gets back in place, you'll be able to separate the cassette from the freehub.

For everyone else, sorry for the offtopic.


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

I finally got in a ride this evening. I ultimately decided to go with a new XD cassette and chain. Removal of the cassette from my original wheels will be a story for another day.

My original wheels were SRAM Roam 40s (24 spoke) that came with the bike. I had Nobby Nics on them, tubeless. The tires were not new but still worked well, I thought. The new wheels are Onyx Vesper Hubs (32 spoke) laced to Arch Mk3 with Sapim Race spokes. They are 100x15 and 142x12 front and back. I added new tires - 2.4 Ardent in the front and a 2.35 Ikon in the back, tubeless. The weight difference was maybe 20 grams for both wheels. Remarkably close considering the old wheelset is 24 spokes. Not noticeable. The bike feels like new but that might be largely due to new rubber and cassette/chain. I love this bike (a 2015 Horsethief Carbon 1) and now I know I will keep it for several more years. 

I purchased these direct from Onyx. The wheels are machine built but the are straight and true and properly tensioned. I ordered extra spokes and nipples. Onyx was great to work with. I initiated the order via email and paid over the phone. Super easy. They also answered many of my questions over the phone. I was a little skiddish about the hubs after dealing with the seized cassette on my old wheelset. I wanted to be sure I didn't damage this beautiful hardware. They were super helpful and understanding with my many questions. I can't say enough about how great they were.

When I finally got everything sorted, it was worth it. The local trails are great but not particularly challenging WRT terrain. That said, the ride on the new Vesper wheels was striking. The silence really made me ride a little bit differently. I was not as aware of the bike or drivetrain. I just rode. The immediate engagement was interesting for quick steep uphills and switchbacks. I think the bike climbs noticeably better. Really quite a different experience. I loved it.

There's more but I'm out. Let me know if you have any other specific questions.


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

Hello,
can't find informations on the final colors.
Nobl announcement said that there will be more than 5colors after release but i cannot find them anywhere 
Looking for orange (like the one used by hope).
Halp !


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

You will need to contact Nobl directly for their status. If you order from Onyx directly or via your LBS you can get colors show here https://onyxrp.com/wp-content/uploads/Onyx-Hub-Shell-Colors-Reference-rev-2017-0303.jpg


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

I finally got my new Vesper! Unfortunately, my LBS goofed on the order and forgot to tell Onyx that I wanted the upgraded Ceramic Hybrid bearings! Not happy but the LBS is making it right and I am just going to stay with the steel bearings. They are Enduro ABEC 5 steel bearings so they should be fine. 

My first, and only, ride so far was just a quick 2 mi ride around the neighbood with a few hills so I could try out the instant engagement. I can say, it is real. There is no lag and the engagement is nice and smooth. The hub is SILENT. The annoying thing is that I now hear a slight tick-tick-tick of my brake pads just barely grazing the rear rotor.

Oh, and my drive side comes off pretty easy like other posters here have said; however, once the wheel is on the bike that makes no difference.


----------



## Blackies Pasture (Mar 3, 2015)

tomtoday said:


> No, the color on the picture is a bit off. They are the standard Orange Fluorescent powdercoat. The color is slightly lighter and slightly less red in reality.


Is that so you don't get shot during deer season?


----------



## jbowles (Mar 31, 2006)

Is the soft engagement bothersome to anyone else? I don't mind it too much on the initial stroke of the pedal but I can feel it when I'm climbing and hammering hard.


----------



## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Not seeing the new hubs on Onyx web store. Are these hubs available in CenterLock? 
Also going to likely need a BOOST 20 CL front hub.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

jbowles said:


> Is the soft engagement bothersome to anyone else? I don't mind it too much on the initial stroke of the pedal but I can feel it when I'm climbing and hammering hard.


It's keeping you from spinning out when traction is thin. That's about the only difference it makes.


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

jbowles said:


> Is the soft engagement bothersome to anyone else? I don't mind it too much on the initial stroke of the pedal but I can feel it when I'm climbing and hammering hard.


What is this soft engagement you speak of? I have a hub on order so I'd like to know!


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

Schulze said:


> What is this soft engagement you speak of? I have a hub on order so I'd like to know!


Unlike the traditional ratchets or pawls which have positive and abrupt engagement, the sprag clutch engages by slight rotation of the sprags, which distributes the impulse over a longer period of time, resulting in the "softer" engagement. In theory anyway.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Onyx feels slightly squishy when applying power. I love it even though I've never owned a set. 
I skipped on Vesper cause I'm a weight weenie and have good relations with my previous hub provider. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

compengr said:


> Unlike the traditional ratchets or pawls which have positive and abrupt engagement, the sprag clutch engages by slight rotation of the sprags, which distributes the impulse over a longer period of time, resulting in the "softer" engagement. In theory anyway.


With the Onyx sprag clutch the engagement feels instant and there is no perceptible lag. This is clear when playing with a bare hub by hand. However, in actual use the sprags stand up a bit under increasing torque load after engagement. Basically in normal riding the effect is like slightly pressing into a big spring. The energy is returned upon the passing of torque peaks. The effect on feel is that the edge is taken off of hard engagements and sharp torque impulses.

A few riders seem to find it offputting, or take some time getting used to it. Most seem to like it. I think this may be related to riding style, or some people are way more sensitive to this stuff than I am. For me, I didn't really notice it until it was pointed out. I just think the hubs feel very smooth and I suppose this may be a big part of why. But it is definitely there, and it is obvious when looking for it, especially if you press the cranks hard against locked brakes.

I do wonder if the smaller sprag package on the Vespers makes the effect more apparent, I have yet to hear anyone confirm this. It is my understanding that the sprag sizing on the original hubs was significantly more than adequate, thus allowing for some of the weight savings on the Vespers. The reactions I have heard to the Vespers match the generally strongly positive reactions from the originals. I have two sets of originals and they are far and away my favorite hubs.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

PUNKY said:


> Not seeing the new hubs on Onyx web store. Are these hubs available in CenterLock?
> Also going to likely need a BOOST 20 CL front hub.


Their web site stinks. There is a lot more information at the NOBL wheels website. You can also call them -- their number is buried in their web page but they do answer the phone and are available to chat.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Schulze said:


> What is this soft engagement you speak of? I have a hub on order so I'd like to know!


I have the Vesper and come from DT-350, Chris King, old Hope Pro. I currently weight around 200lb with a pack and would not call the engagement "soft" but would call it "smooth". Where hard shifting on my other hubs would be abrupt and with a sharp "clang" the Onyx seems to "smooth out" the shift -- but the engagement is INSTANT!

The people that have mentioned (not necc. complain) are the real heavy weight riders or those on heavy cargo bikes or fat bikes.

I am only 3 weeks and 100mi in on XC riding and I can say these are the best hubs I have been on!!!


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

So, I just discovered something odd with the new hub. I'm not sure,yet, if this is something out of spec with the hub, cassette, or an installation issue of the e13 cassette -- going back to the LBS that built the wheel to have them diagnose.

When I got the wheel back and mounted it up I immediately had new shifting issues. Indexing was slightly off and I got chain-suck into the spokes twice. So, I went about adjusting the derailleur in the stand and that is when I noticed this new issue -- there is not enough space between the smallest cog and the derailleur hanger so the chain is just barely rubbing. It is as if the entire cassette on the new hub is shifted just slightly outward compared to when it was on my DT-350. I did not notice this when pedaling -- it was more noisy than normal and I just figured it was the derailleur needing adjustment but once I got it up on the stand it was immediately apparent.

Fortunately, I am in crappy shape and barely use the small cog right now  

Anyone else seen this?

** Update -- I just noticed a gap between the 1.8mm spacer and the driver which is not supposed to be there (0.625mm with a feeler gauge) so this looks like an installation issue. That spacer should sit flush against the driver. Still gonna take it to the LBS but it does not look like an issue with the hub itself.


----------



## tomtoday (Oct 27, 2005)

spec306 said:


> ** Update -- I just noticed a gap between the 1.8mm spacer and the driver which is not supposed to be there (0.625mm with a feeler gauge) so this looks like an installation issue. That spacer should sit flush against the driver. Still gonna take it to the LBS but it does not look like an issue with the hub itself.


My rear wheel shipped from Onyx with a rubber o-ring on the driver to hold the spacer in place. That needs to be removed before putting on the cassette. Maybe your LBS didn't remove that o-ring?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tomtoday said:


> My rear wheel shipped from Onyx with a rubber o-ring on the driver to hold the spacer in place. That needs to be removed before putting on the cassette. Maybe your LBS didn't remove that o-ring?


Dude... I think you just fixed my shifting! Mine was just a hair off and when I'd swap with my other wheelset I'd have to tweak the derailleur every time. After reading your post I went to the garage and removed my cassette. Sure enough there was a rubber O-ring there. I didn't even notice it before! No one told me I'd have to remove an O-ring before installing the cassette. Bam!


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Nat said:


> Dude... I think you just fixed my shifting! Mine was just a hair off and when I'd swap with my other wheelset I'd have to tweak the derailleur every time. After reading your post I went to the garage and removed my cassette. Sure enough there was a rubber O-ring there. I didn't even notice it before! No one told me I'd have to remove an O-ring before installing the cassette. Bam!


I called Onyx to get their help in diagnosing this problem and O-ring was one of the first thing they pointed out to me. Apologies.....I should have updated the thread with this info. My LBS has the bike and will be looking for this today. I'll update the thread once I get their analysis.

NAT--did you receive any documentation with your hub that explained this? I didn't as my LBS threw out the box.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

spec306 said:


> I called Onyx to get their help in diagnosing this problem and O-ring was one of the first thing they pointed out to me. Apologies.....I should have updated the thread with this info. My LBS has the bike and will be looking for this today. I'll update the thread once I get their analysis.
> 
> NAT--did you receive any documentation with your hub that explained this? I didn't as my LBS threw out the box.


I got my wheels shipped directly to me from NOBL Wheels and I don't recall any literature within the box. Maybe there was but not that I recall.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Had a few rides out on mine now and I'm loving them. The silence is a wonderful change from my previous hubs - never thought about the difference it would make to the experience until I was out there. Instant engagement and low drag are also well worth the cost and weight penalty. The "soft start" is really welcome. The only time it feels a bit odd is bail out gear on a steep climb and a low cadence. Perhaps it's just the zero lag connection letting me feel the oval chain ring. Also, once riding gets to that gear/cadence, everything feels pretty horrible anyway!

I have the xD driver. Like others, it came with the o-ring to hold the spacer on and there were no instructions in the box. I did have time to play with the hubs before building my wheels so noticed it before it became an issue.

I've just been quoted £140 for a micro spline freehub body. I thought these were supposed to work with the DT version which only costs £65. Anyone know the difference?


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

onzadog said:


> I've just been quoted £140 for a micro spline freehub body. I thought these were supposed to work with the DT version which only costs £65. Anyone know the difference?


I had the same question. The micro spline kit from Onyx includes a different end cap, and an additional seal that they press on to the DT freehub body.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

The DT comes with an end cap as well. That makes it a bloody expensive seal!


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

onzadog said:


> The DT comes with an end cap as well. That makes it a bloody expensive seal!


I was told the end cap from Onyx is different. I'm assuming it's unique to them. Yeah, expensive. I couldn't justify going that route.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

I have two built up sets. they behave just like legacy onyx. if their is concern over "softer" engagement secondary to reduced sprag area, i haven't felt it [at 215lbs and having destroyed I9s and P321s]

they will, however, eject the driver and hub axle IF a cassette is mounted to the driver. only time it becomes an issue is if you are doing a trail side repair. if the hub axle lands in dirt, you get the pleasure of trying to decontaminate it trail side, or risk getting sand in the sprags.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> only time it becomes an issue is if you are doing a trail side repair. if the hub axle lands in dirt, you get the pleasure of trying to decontaminate it trail side, or risk getting sand in the sprags.


Or if the cap on the other end of the assembly bounces across the garage, under a car, then comes to rest beneath a shelf loaded with stuff. Not sure how I know about that...


----------



## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I don't have one of these hubs but I had to pitch in to the durability of the Onyx hubs.
We have Onxy 36h hubs on our mountain tandem. Fully loaded for bikepacking (food, water, everything else) our tandem comes in a bit over 90#. Our team weight is 340, so we have about 430# when we are moving.

Our rear Onxy hub has been one of the most rock solid components that we have with our build. The sprag clutch has never slipped and the hubs in general have proven themselves to be bulletproof.


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

Hello,
there is some delay on delivery and onyx is offering the old design with the upgraded alloy freehub if i don't want to wait.
Thoughts on this?
It is for my enduro bike in 27.5, main usage will be bikepark 
Cheers


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tirrorex said:


> Hello,
> there is some delay on delivery and onyx is offering the old design with the upgraded alloy freehub if i don't want to wait.
> Thoughts on this?
> It is for my enduro bike in 27.5, main usage will be bikepark
> Cheers


Take the deal. For a park bike you won't notice the weight difference and the old design is stronger. NOBL even states that the older design is more suitable for DH. Scroll down to the paragraph titled "Instant Engagement."

https://noblwheels.com/the-all-new-onyx-vesper/


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

Nat said:


> Take the deal. For a park bike you won't notice the weight difference and the old design is stronger. NOBL even states that the older design is more suitable for DH. Scroll down to the paragraph titled "Instant Engagement."
> 
> https://noblwheels.com/the-all-new-onyx-vesper/


Well i will also use it a lot to ride a round with lots of pedaling but i won't go easy on my bike in the bikeparks 

Yeah i read that too, but i think that the upgraded freehub changes things?

I have no clue what they mean by "upgraded alloy freehub" though :/
Do i save weight?
Does it have the same durability?
I have no clue :/


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I have an older wheelset set up for park with the original hub design (alloy freehub), DH casing tires, and a tire insert. I recently went on a bike trip during which I rode park but also some steep, extended climbing. I thought I’d hate pedaling up with those heavy wheels but I got used to them and wasn’t missing the lighter wheels with the Vespers that I left at home. I was glad to have the extra durability and dependability of my DH wheels when blasting down hill. 

Alloy freehub is a bit lighter than the steel. Durability might be less but mine is still good even after a couple of years of hard DH and enduro style riding.


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

Nat said:


> I have an older wheelset set up for park with the original hub design (alloy freehub), DH casing tires, and a tire insert. I recently went on a bike trip during which I rode park but also some steep, extended climbing. I thought I'd hate pedaling up with those heavy wheels but I got used to them and wasn't missing the lighter wheels with the Vespers that I left at home. I was glad to have the extra durability and dependability of my DH wheels when blasting down hill.
> 
> Alloy freehub is a bit lighter than the steel. Durability might be less but mine is still good even after a couple of years of hard DH and enduro style riding.


I see, thanks for the clarification mate, appreciate it


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

tirrorex said:


> Hello,
> there is some delay on delivery and onyx is offering the old design with the upgraded alloy freehub if i don't want to wait.
> Thoughts on this?
> It is for my enduro bike in 27.5, main usage will be bikepark
> Cheers


My LBS received my Vesper in 1 week from the time they ordered it. Not bad since I am in NorCal and Onyx is in Minnesota.


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

spec306 said:


> My LBS received my Vesper in 1 week from the time they ordered it. Not bad since I am in NorCal and Onyx is in Minnesota.


The delay is related to one of the manufacturers, nothing they can do about it unfortunatly...
It's not a shipping delay per say

And by delay i mean 2 to 3 weeks


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind is the original hubs aren't compatible with Shimano micro spline, so if one had plans to use the Shimano 12 speed stuff this may not be a good option. This is due to limited Shimano licensing, which is likely, and hopefully, a temporary issue.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

tirrorex said:


> The delay is related to one of the manufacturers, nothing they can do about it unfortunatly...
> It's not a shipping delay per say
> 
> And by delay i mean 2 to 3 weeks


Delay? Is that something new? Like I stated, I got mine within one week. Keeping in mind the order processing time, then ground shipping, I would say that 1 week is pretty good!


----------



## adurant (May 31, 2019)

Yea Onyx sent out an email last week saying any vesper hubs that didn't already ship will have 2-3 week delay, they offered the classic hub with alloy driver for no upcharge to the vesper customers who can't wait.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

compengr said:


> One thing to keep in mind is the original hubs aren't compatible with Shimano micro spline, so if one had plans to use the Shimano 12 speed stuff this may not be a good option. This is due to limited Shimano licensing, which is likely, and hopefully, a temporary issue.


They have Microspline conversion kits in production for the classic hubs, to be available very soon. These will use DT Swiss freehubs. Next year they may make their own version with the new Shimano license policy.


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 4, 2018)

adurant said:


> Yea Onyx sent out an email last week saying any vesper hubs that didn't already ship will have 2-3 week delay, they offered the classic hub with alloy driver for no upcharge to the vesper customers who can't wait.


I have to say i feel like they ripped me off.
Had some vesper ordered with ceramic bearing (160$ extra for both hubs) but i accepted their switch offer since i needed those asap to go on vacations.
One would assume 160$ should be given back as the offer was for hubs with classing bearings...
They refunded only 80pounds...
I can promise you guys they will never see my money again.

Money is no issue here, i couldn't care less about the difference and i would've gladly paid it.
I just have principles and when you say something, you stick to it, otherwise better not run your mouth in the first place


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

Anybody knows where can I buy a 12/142 Vesper hub? 
Can't find it anywhere..


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

You special order it through your LBS, and then maybe Onyx will take time off from making tractor parts or selling goat feed to machine you one, in a few weeks or months.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

Seriously. There's no way I can purchase one online?


----------



## compengr (Dec 11, 2008)

You can purchase one online. The process is going to be the same as going through your LBS.


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Maybe call Nobl? 

I have my Vesper laced up, just need to put a tire on it and go for a ride. With the superlight 30mm carbon rim, it came in at 882g for the rear. Not great, not terrible.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

I live in Tel Aviv. My LBS don't know who or what Onyx is. Ordering online is my only option. Anybody got a link? Can you please elaborate on "the process" of ordering?


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Got my Vesper built up, went on a few rides. Simply magical. My bike disappeared, in the sense of no noise and no throttle lag. Now other things are starting to annoy me. I have a saddle creak I didn't notice before. That's going to have to get fixed. But, magical. I'll be buying more for sure.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Schulze said:


> Got my Vesper built up, went on a few rides. Simply magical. My bike disappeared, in the sense of no noise and no throttle lag. Now other things are starting to annoy me. I have a saddle creak I didn't notice before. That's going to have to get fixed. But, magical. I'll be buying more for sure.


LOL.....I have the same problem. My left shoe squeaks on my TIME pedal. Never noticed that one before. Squeak squeak squeak.........every pedal stroke


----------



## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

spec306 said:


> LOL.....I have the same problem. My left shoe squeaks on my TIME pedal. Never noticed that one before. Squeak squeak squeak.........every pedal stroke


Your old hubs made noise while pedalling?


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Ole said:


> Your old hubs made noise while pedalling?


I came from a noisy DT-350 with the 36T star ratchet which made so much noise, in general, that it masked all the other little noises my bike makes like my shoe squeaking on my pedal.

Now that I have a dead silent Onyx hub I can hear all the other little noises.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

spec306 said:


> I came from a noisy DT-350 with the 36T star ratchet which made so much noise, in general, that it masked all the other little noises my bike makes like my shoe squeaking on my pedal.
> 
> Now that I have a dead silent Onyx hub I can hear all the other little noises.


I think Ole was emphasizing the _while pedaling_ part, as in when you're engaging the hub and not freewheeling. No hubs should be noisy then.

Yeah, every little creak, pop, and click becomes more evident when you don't have a loud ratchet to fill the air with sound. The other day I was even noticing the sound of the fabric on my pants, lol.


----------



## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

I ride with a friend who is hyper aware (and hyper irritated by) bike noise, to the point of obsession.

he recently bought Onyx wheels and loves them. However, now I have to hear his constant complaining about his brake pads rattling and fork creaking. Therefore, his wheel upgrade has detracted from my ride experience


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

The Squeaky Wheel said:


> I ride with a friend who is hyper aware (and hyper irritated by) bike noise, to the point of obsession.
> 
> he recently bought Onyx wheels and loves them. However, now I have to hear his constant complaining about his brake pads rattling and fork creaking. Therefore, his wheel upgrade has detracted from my ride experience


Haha! You should get him some noise cancelling earbuds for a gift. Or buy them for yourself, whichever works, lol.

I'll admit that I can't stand extraneous noises from my bike either. The little shing-shing-shing as my slightly warped rotor touches my brake pads is my current nemesis.


----------



## spec306 (Sep 30, 2007)

Nat said:


> I think Ole was emphasizing the _while pedaling_ part, as in when you're engaging the hub and not freewheeling. No hubs should be noisy then.
> 
> Yeah, every little creak, pop, and click becomes more evident when you don't have a loud ratchet to fill the air with sound. The other day I was even noticing the sound of the fabric on my pants, lol.


Well.....truth be told, My DT-350 was LONG overdue for bearing replacement and they were noisy all the time -- even after lubing the star ratchet. The bearings felt like there were rocks in them 

LOL about the slightly warped brake rotor.......I just replaced my rear as the noise was bugging me. My front is just slightly warped but not bad enough to bug me -- yet.


----------



## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

Nat said:


> Haha! You should get him some noise cancelling earbuds for a gift. Or buy them for yourself, whichever works, lol.
> 
> I'll admit that I can't stand extraneous noises from my bike either. The little shing-shing-shing as my slightly warped rotor touches my brake pads is my current nemesis.


you need floating rotors


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

the squeaky wheel said:


> you need floating rotors


lol


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Ole said:


> Your old hubs made noise while pedalling?


I'm in the same boat, and it doesn't make any sense. I hate the sound of my chain scraping on the adjacent cog when I pedal and my creaky seat. These things didn't bother me before sweet coasting silence, but now they do.


----------



## kopavi (Jan 11, 2013)

I found Cycle Wheel USA is offering an attractive price on an Onyx Vesper Stans MK3 build starting at $822. Cycle Wheel also tapes the rim, provides valves and free shipping. I ordered the Crest MK3 Wheel with Sapin Race double-butted spokes and brass nipples for $822. They also can build a CWUSA carbon wheel version from $985.

Here is the link:

https://cyclewheelsusa.com/product/onyx-vesper-with-stans-mk3-rims/


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

kopavi said:


> ... I ordered the Crest MK3 Wheel with Sapin Race double-butted spokes and brass nipples ...


My choice of rim also. Can you say what's the weight with these spokes and nipples?


----------



## kopavi (Jan 11, 2013)

DogThree said:


> My choice of rim also. Can you say what's the weight with these spokes and nipples?


I just ordered and can provide the weight to you when I receive the wheels. I like the Stans Crest and have had a good experience with them for many miles. I believe they are one of the lighter wheels you can purchase. Dave at CWUSA can also build an Onyx Vesper hub on other wheels, his website just shows the Stans.

When I built the same wheelset on Pro Wheel Builder the weight came in at 909.76g Rear and 677.76g for the front. Slightly different spokes were used Sapin CX Sprint on PWB and Sapin Race on CWUSA. The PWB price was 35% higher at $1,113.


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

Got my Vespers built up in a TR33 wheelset by NOBL. The anodized blue is a great color, btw.

I've been riding Chris King for the past 10+ years and didn't realize I was missing engagement until I rode the Vespers. Having that extra engagement is great on techy climbs (in addition to the oval chainring that I installed at the same time). The wheels spin like the Chris Kings never did and without lateral play.

But yeah, now you hear everything else going on with your bike. Instead of the hub now I hear the suspension doing its thing.

I truly believe this is where hub tech will end up going. Engagement, simplicity, perfect.


----------



## ctw55 (Apr 19, 2013)

Does anyone know if the new Vesper Hubs are available in centerlock? Information seems to be a little sparce...


----------



## adurant (May 31, 2019)

Yes they are, they weren't available until about a month ago. I got mine built with berd spokes on chinese carbon rims and absolutely love them.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

Has anyone caused theirs to slip yet? I had some high-torque situations at Gooseberry Mesa a couple weeks back, and I'm pretty sure they slipped on me 3 times. Not completely, but a few degrees.

I've never had that with my old original onyx hubs.

I'm wondering what else it might be.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> Has anyone caused theirs to slip yet? I had some high-torque situations at Gooseberry Mesa a couple weeks back, and I'm pretty sure they slipped on me 3 times. Not completely, but a few degrees.
> 
> I've never had that with my old original onyx hubs.
> 
> I'm wondering what else it might be.


It will continue to get worse.

I am working through the issue with two sets right now.

For fun, drop the saddle, sit on the seat, put the rear der in the 50t (or highest tooth count), place a crank arm parallel to the ground, grab the rear brake, and observe how far you can depress the pedal without spinning the tire....if a 50t is a tooth every 7.2*, and you can get the cassette to spin one tooth when depressing the pedal, that would make around 7.2* before power transmission under load. i eyeballed about 1.5 teeth of movement, so close 10*. instant engagement, in this scenario, does not equate to instant torque transmission.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

Darn, not what I wanted to hear. I've run the original onyx hubs on my bikes for 3 years with zero slips.

I'll keep an eye on it and see if I can make it slip. I was in my 36t when it happened. It almost felt like the cassette tightening on the hub a few degrees, but I'm scared it was the sprag clutch slipping. My wheelset build was not cheap and I'm not looking forward to paying to have it swapped out if I have to warranty it.

I LOVE onyx hubs, and I like the new weight of the vesper, but I may stick with my originals if this one slips more.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> Darn, not what I wanted to hear. I've run the original onyx hubs on my bikes for 3 years with zero slips.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on it and see if I can make it slip. I was in my 36t when it happened. It almost felt like the cassette tightening on the hub a few degrees, but I'm scared it was the sprag clutch slipping. My wheelset build was not cheap and I'm not looking forward to paying to have it swapped out if I have to warranty it.
> 
> I LOVE onyx hubs, and I like the new weight of the vesper, but I may stick with my originals if this one slips more.


I love them, also. This is set 5 and 6 for me. Lets hope that its a driver tolerance/wear issue. If its a hubshell tolerance/wear issue, things start to get expensive, quick.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

Are your issues just with Vesper models, or the original as well? How many of your sets have slipped?

This is my 3rd set of onyx, but my first vespers. The shop I bought them from (Fanataik bike co) is fantastic and they're reaching out to Onyx for me. I'll let everyone know what I find.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> Are your issues just with Vesper models, or the original as well? How many of your sets have slipped?
> 
> This is my 3rd set of onyx, but my first vespers. The shop I bought them from (Fanataik bike co) is fantastic and they're reaching out to Onyx for me. I'll let everyone know what I find.


4 sets are legacy. 3 of 4 have been bullet proof. 1 set had the sprag retainer cage fail (i am sure they call it something different), which prevented the sprags from engaging. quick, easy sprag change and i was back on the trail.

these 2 sets are vesper. both were great for a month. then both started with an increasing, springy engagement, behaving like a lower engagement (with a recoil). then both started to slip under high torque, only in the 50t on Eagle. now i can slip both in 42t pretty easy as well. it feels like loss of traction at the cranks, but rear doesn't spin. i've video'd it in a stand and exchanged it directly with Onyx. waiting on next steps.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

I got some info. I don't want to copy and past email transcripts, so here's an overview:

It sounds like a compression issue on the Driver itself. The fix is a replacement driver (easy plug and play swap with no tools).

I'll post up once I get the new driver and keep this thread updated. Thanks for the info.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> I got some info. I don't want to copy and past email transcripts, so here's an overview:
> 
> It sounds like a compression issue on the Driver itself. The fix is a replacement driver (easy plug and play swap with no tools).
> 
> I'll post up once I get the new driver and keep this thread updated. Thanks for the info.


That's good to hear. Replacing the sprags would require popping out and repressing the bearings on this model.


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

hardtail party said:


> Are your issues just with Vesper models, or the original as well? How many of your sets have slipped?
> 
> This is my 3rd set of onyx, but my first vespers. The shop I bought them from (Fanataik bike co) is fantastic and they're reaching out to Onyx for me. I'll let everyone know what I find.


Interested to see how this works out. I have a Vesper wheelset on order with Fanatik now, waiting for the hubs to complete the build.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

tdc_worm said:


> It will continue to get worse.
> 
> I am working through the issue with two sets right now.
> 
> For fun, drop the saddle, sit on the seat, put the rear der in the 50t (or highest tooth count), place a crank arm parallel to the ground, grab the rear brake, and observe how far you can depress the pedal without spinning the tire....if a 50t is a tooth every 7.2*, and you can get the cassette to spin one tooth when depressing the pedal, that would make around 7.2* before power transmission under load. i eyeballed about 1.5 teeth of movement, so close 10*. instant engagement, in this scenario, does not equate to instant torque transmission.


This sucks. 
Sorry to hear it.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> It will continue to get worse.
> 
> I am working through the issue with two sets right now.
> 
> For fun, drop the saddle, sit on the seat, put the rear der in the 50t (or highest tooth count), place a crank arm parallel to the ground, grab the rear brake, and observe how far you can depress the pedal without spinning the tire....if a 50t is a tooth every 7.2*, and you can get the cassette to spin one tooth when depressing the pedal, that would make around 7.2* before power transmission under load. i eyeballed about 1.5 teeth of movement, so close 10*. instant engagement, in this scenario, does not equate to instant torque transmission.


I get that you don't like the way it feels when this happens, but it's not slipping, and the "test" you've described isn't indicative of, well, anything other than pushing on the pedals with the rear brake locked when in the easiest gear.

What you're feeling is the sprags standing up more and more as they bite. What you aren't feeling is slippage.

Like I said -- I get that you don't like the feeling. Not everyone does. I found it disconcerting at first (years ago, with a preproduction hub), and Onyx responded by replacing my driver, which improved it.

These days I *like* the feeling, because it means less tire slippage on steep, scrabbly climbs, as well as on snow or ice.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Thanks for pointing out the problem is me. I will learn to like it (or not), as you advised, even though, as aforementioned, my two sets of Vesper behave entirely different than my four legacy sets. Its the new performance upgrade of instant engagement, where the same size sprags take at least 90* to stand up. The test is, surely, not indicative of anything.








mikesee said:


> I get that you don't like the way it feels when this happens, but it's not slipping, and the "test" you've described isn't indicative of, well, anything other than pushing on the pedals with the rear brake locked when in the easiest gear.
> 
> What you're feeling is the sprags standing up more and more as they bite. What you aren't feeling is slippage.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Yeah that doesn’t look right.


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

Oh wow. And I just got two wheelsets built up. Yikes!


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> Thanks for pointing out the problem is me. I will learn to like it (or not), as you advised, even though, as aforementioned, my two sets of Vesper behave entirely different than my four legacy sets. Its the new performance upgrade of instant engagement, where the same size sprags take at least 90* to stand up. The test is, surely, not indicative of anything.


The vid paints a very different picture from what I took away from your verbal description.

What you have going on in this vid is very different from what I had, and clearly not right.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Please share how Onyx solves this for you.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

mikesee said:


> The vid paints a very different picture from what I took away from your verbal description.
> 
> What you have going on in this vid is very different from what I had, and clearly not right.
> 
> Sorry for my misunderstanding. Please share how Onyx solves this for you.


Gotcha. The soft/spongy engagement and springy disengagement that is felt at the end of the crank arm is a result of the sprawls standing up into their locking position. If there is a tolerance issue on the freehub body (or comprehensibility as HT Party mentioned above), the sprawls theoretically, could take longer to stand up, resulting in increased slop at the end of the crank arm. That slop feels like delayed transmission. This also brings up an interesting debate regarding POE: does infinite POE = instant transmission?

Interestingly, I just found an Onyx service video, that states "Kluber ISOFLEX LDS 18 SPECIAL A is the only approved lubrication" and "will keep the clutch from slipping during high load." Add that to the variables that could be contributing to the slip.

I wasn't going to share the video...I have zero interest in going consumer terrorist...stuff breaks. I've spun/stripped the threads on the drive ring of more than one high engagement pawl driven hub. As long as customer service is there to get you going again, I am a happy camper. To that end, I have have had first class customer service with Jim at Onyx in the past to solve problems.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mikesee said:


> I get that you don't like the way it feels when this happens, but it's not slipping, and the "test" you've described isn't indicative of, well, anything other than pushing on the pedals with the rear brake locked when in the easiest gear.
> 
> What you're feeling is the sprags standing up more and more as they bite. What you aren't feeling is slippage.
> 
> ...


As you saw, tdc_worm's problem is different. 
However I have to say that the Berd spokes that you and I both run also exhibit that same brief moment of wind up that normally operating Onyx hubs also exhibit. 
I personally would not want that feeling x2 so would not recommend stacking Onyx hubs with Berds.
Ps. So glad I skipped on Vesper's as I was very close to choosing that route on my last wheel build.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

I really hope this is a driver issue rather than the sprags. I recall reading or watching something from Onyx that stated the sprags would slip under high torque (more than could be generated by a normal rider), but then would return to normal operation after the torque was removed. More importantly, the sprags or hub wouldn't be damaged. Let's hope this is the case.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> I personally would not want that feeling x2 so would not recommend stacking Onyx hubs with Berds.


I wouldnt throw the baby out with the bath water here. What I think Mike is talking about is the "clunk" as you catch up to the engagement in a pawl driven system....it interrupts your cadence as the engagement is abrupt and you have a sudden deceleration at the cranks.

In a normally operating sprag system, there is a fraction of the degree play during engagement that allows for a less harsh feeling at the pedals. I never felt any wind up issues on my other 4 sets.


----------



## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> However I have to say that the Berd spokes that you and I both run also exhibit that same brief moment of wind up
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Thanks for posting this. I asked if this was a possibility in the other thread. I'm definitely in the camp of not liking the feel of how sprags engage and am strongly considering Berd's based on all the positive feedback. I'll need to start my own thread on this regarding Berd's though.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Mine also "flex" about 7 degrees under the highest torque, but it's a springy action that gives back the energy. I see it as a smoothing of the torque curve and I've had no problems riding hard on technical terrain including some big ledge ups.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

tdc_worm said:


> I wouldnt throw the baby out with the bath water here. What I think Mike is talking about is the "clunk" as you catch up to the engagement in a pawl driven system....it interrupts your cadence as the engagement is abrupt and you have a sudden deceleration at the cranks.
> 
> In a normally operating sprag system, there is a fraction of the degree play during engagement that allows for a less harsh feeling at the pedals. I never felt any wind up issues on my other 4 sets.


To clarify, I've ridden legacy Onyx hubs (and really liked them). Berd spokes (on hubs besides Onyx) have a similar soft engagement point. 
I'd say Onyx feels a bit springy/ wound up like it gives it right back whereas Berd spokes (on non Onyx hubs) have a much more damped soft engagement feel but you don't get that 'gives it right back' sensation with the Berds. 
Just pointing out that I wouldn't want to combine those 2 attributes of the Onyx & Berds. Ultimately both are a product of flex/ give and I don't want any additional in my drivetrain as the effect of either 1 of those 2 products is enough for me, personally. 
Berds feel slow because of this sensation, but the stop watch says otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> To clarify, I've ridden legacy Onyx hubs (and really liked them). Berd spokes (on hubs besides Onyx) have a similar soft engagement point.
> I'd say Onyx feels a bit springy/ wound up like it gives it right back whereas Berd spokes (on non Onyx hubs) have a much more damped soft engagement feel but you don't get that 'gives it back' sensation with the Berds.
> Just pointing out that I wouldn't want to combine those 2 attributes of the Onyx & Berds. Ultimately both are a product of flex/ give and I don't want any additional in my drivetrain, personally.
> Berds feel slow because of this sensation, but the stop watch says otherwise.


Can't say that I notice Berd's changing engagement feel in any way, regardless of hub.

Possibly because I'm riding them with 3" tires at ~mid-teen pressures full time.

I have a Vesper/Berd/Kappius wheelset on the docket this month, for myself.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Shocked that you would say that, it's significant from my perspective. 
I'm not the only one that notices it either, when I called Berd and brought it up they told me that it's a common comment. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Shocked that you would say that, it's significant from my perspective.


My experience doesn't invalidate yours. And vice versa.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

:eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster:



tdc_worm said:


>


This is VERY disturbing! My Versper is on it's way and I really hope this wont happen on my wheel. Two things were the idea of using this hub, the silence and more important was the instant kick you can put on the wheel.

Did this develop over time or was it like this straight from day one?


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

DogThree said:


> :eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster:
> 
> This is VERY disturbing! My Versper is on it's way and I really hope this wont happen on my wheel. Two things were the idea of using this hub, the silence and more important was the instant kick you can put on the wheel.
> 
> Did this develop over time or was it like this straight from day one?


It progressed over time. Both hubs are still rideable. If its just a sit and spin scenario while climbing, I get 1:1 transmission in the 50t cog. As it gets more techy and requires more ratcheting or sudden bursts of power, I'll spin the 42t or 36t cog to prevent slippage. It's not a catastrophic failure in the sense that I have to push the bike out (I've had several catastrophic failures of other hubs before)....I actually count that as a major plus having pushed several bikes out before [I am looking at you, pawl driven designs]. The phenomena is only observed in climbing. Trail riding or DH where you are in the middle of the cassette or higher, everything behaves as advertised.

To be clear, I am 100% confident that Onyx will get it sorted quickly...they are fantastic to work with. I think its just one of three things: Hub shell tolerance, Freehub tolerance, or potentially a lube issue.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DogThree said:


> This is VERY disturbing! My Versper is on it's way and I really hope this wont happen on my wheel. Two things were the idea of using this hub, the silence and more important was the instant kick you can put on the wheel.
> 
> Did this develop over time or was it like this straight from day one?


I wouldn't be disturbed unless it becomes an actual problem on one's own wheel. Stressing and hand-wringing isn't going to achieve anything other than causing anxiety.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

I'm stressed about being in a situation where I'm trying to clear a rock two or three feet high, or more, and the burst of spin I try to put on the wheel will feel like a 25 buck freewheel screwing itself deeper into the hub instead of moving me forward.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DogThree said:


> I'm stressed about being in a situation where I'm trying to clear a rock two or three feet high, or more, and the burst of spin I try to put on the wheel will feel like a 25 buck freewheel screwing itself deeper into the hub instead of moving me forward.


If it makes you feel any better I've done that all season on the Vesper and it hasn't slipped once.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

DogThree said:


> I'm stressed about being in a situation where I'm trying to clear a rock two or three feet high, or more, and the burst of spin I try to put on the wheel will feel like a 25 buck freewheel screwing itself deeper into the hub instead of moving me forward.


i don't have issues with anything like that.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

DogThree said:


> I'm stressed about being in a situation where I'm trying to clear a rock two or three feet high, or more, and the burst of spin I try to put on the wheel will feel like a 25 buck freewheel screwing itself deeper into the hub instead of moving me forward.


That's exactly what mine feels like, but hopefully that will be resolved with my new driver.

I feel like most vespers are fine.


----------



## kopavi (Jan 11, 2013)

DogThree said:


> My choice of rim also. Can you say what's the weight with these spokes and nipples?


The weight for the Stans Crest 32 spoke setup was 776g front and 1012g rear.

Haven't ridden the wheels yet to see if the problems folks are reporting impact the wheels I purchased. I'll update after riding.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

I just received my warranty replacement part. excited to pop it in tomorrow. Excellent CS from onyx.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> I just received my warranty replacement part. excited to pop it in tomorrow. Excellent CS from onyx.


Same here. 2 x large Sprag clutch assemblies and 2 x freehub body.
I need to purchase a bearing puller and press, but that is way easier than shipping two rear wheels to Onyx.
Unlikely that I will get a ride report before the turn of the year with winter travel taking priority.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> I need to purchase a bearing puller and press, but that is way easier than shipping two rear wheels to Onyx.


You could also have your LBS change the bearings since they probably already have the tools. Mine charged me only a very small amount for the work.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Nat said:


> You could also have your LBS change the bearings since they probably already have the tools. Mine charged me only a very small amount for the work.


6805 bearing extractor and press can be had for about $30. that more than accounts for the fuel and time to make two trips to and fro the LBS. plus i will have them for a liftetime. additionally, Onyx wants the hubshell hit with 800 grit.

if you want something done right, do it yourself....


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

tdc_worm said:


> 6805 bearing extractor and press can be had for about $30. that more than accounts for the fuel and time to make to trips to and fro the LBS. plus i will have them for a liftetime. additionally, Onyx wants the hubshell hit with 800 grit.
> =======================================
> 
> _"""_ if you want something done right, do it yourself...._"""_
> ...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> 6805 bearing extractor and press can be had for about $30. that more than accounts for the fuel and time to make to trips to and fro the LBS. plus i will have them for a liftetime. additionally, Onyx wants the hubshell hit with 800 grit.
> 
> if you want something done right, do it yourself....


My LBS did it right. Anyway, I was just offering up another option instead of buying tools that you'll only use once in awhile. Happy wrenching.



tdc_worm said:


> _"""_ if you want something done right, do it yourself...._"""_
> 
> *HALELULEYA*


Does that include spelling?

Calm down, I'm just teasing you.


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Nat said:


> My LBS did it right. Anyway, I was just offering up another option instead of buying tools that you'll only use once in awhile. Happy wrenching.
> 
> Does that include spelling?
> 
> Calm down, I'm just teasing you.


i looked it up, & there were so many different ways, i thought i'd go w/ my first lame attempt. but i do thinck my renchin is a step uhbuve my spelln, fershurr


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

I was able to swap out my new driver in 2 min. Super easy to do with no tools required. Even easier than a dt350. Thank you onyx. I'll report back after I put some miles on this thing in high torque situations.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Nat said:


> My LBS did it right.


did they resurface the inner hubshell with 800 grit?

the LBS is an option, for sure....just like have a mechanic change a bad starter on your car is an option rather than buying a set of hand tools. i tend to think of it more in terms of value than cost. the tools have a resale and a reuse value....my time, fuel, miles, etc twice to the bike shop, do not have a resale or resuse value.



hardtail party said:


> I was able to swap out my new driver in 2 min. Super easy to do with no tools required. Even easier than a dt350. Thank you onyx. I'll report back after I put some miles on this thing in high torque situations.


i take it you didnt replace the large sprag clutch assembly and pull/press the drive side bearing?


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

Nope, I only swapped the driver. Mine was nowhere near as bad as yours.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hardtail party said:


> Nope, I only swapped the driver. Mine was nowhere near as bad as yours.


That's interesting. My understanding is that there are two possible mechanisms of slip:

#1 - the driver slipping in the sprag assembly
#2 - the sprag assembly slipping in the hubshell


----------



## SAIG (May 30, 2004)

I have had 10 rides on my BTLOS built with 32H and 30i. I can't put enough torque on them to make them slip, so I think the Vespers are the best thing available. I have 3 sets of CK's on my road and 26er for the last 25 years and now I won't purchase anything but Onyx. All of sudden I think the angry bees annoy me when I used to like it. The Onyx instant engagement just feels good and the long coasting due to no drag is very noticable.


----------



## Hbnel5on (Dec 13, 2016)

I had the slippage issue. warranty didnt fix it so I sent it back to onyx for a full hub replacement. we'll see later this week


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Hbnel5on said:


> I had the slippage issue. warranty didnt fix it so I sent it back to onyx for a full hub replacement. we'll see later this week


what warranty service was completed? What parts were replaced?


----------



## Hbnel5on (Dec 13, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> what warranty service was completed? What parts were replaced?


the two drive rings


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Hbnel5on said:


> the two drive rings


the two sprag clutch assemblies? what about the freehub driver?


----------



## Hbnel5on (Dec 13, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> the two sprag clutch assemblies? what about the freehub driver?


correct. no driver replacement. they just said use some very fine grit sand paper and scuff it


----------



## mattnz (Jun 4, 2014)

Try Project 321 hubs with the silent magnetic paws. Very quiet, but not quite silent. Very well engineered.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mattnz said:


> Try Project 321 hubs with the silent magnetic paws. Very quiet, but not quite silent. Very well engineered.


Yep, I'm a fan of P321. 
I bought one of the first sets and several months back bought my second set. They were good initially but back to back the second set was notably better. 
They roll fantastic, nearly instant engagement, lightweight, reliable (they had a few issues in the beginning but are dialed now), and nearly silent. 
I had narrowed it down to Vesper's or the P321s, and I'm glad I choose P321.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

my onyx with the new driver shaft is flawless. I've put it thorough some high torque climbs with zero slippage.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

My wife has p321s and I'm not a fan. Weird tools required to work on them. We had to swap out the drive ring already, and she weighs 105 lbs. And they're definitely not silent. They're louder than Chris kings now.

The guys at p321 are really nice but I can't recommend their hubs. Their customer service has been great though.


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

I'm running the classic Onyx on my ebike and the Vespers on my Hightower, both are sensational and get on with their job silently and efficiently. Money well spent.


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

I had two 321 wheelsets recently and twice had a magnet detach from the pawl which trashed the drive ring and other pawls. The guys at 321 were great but I ended up selling both wheelsets. I liked the low noise and quick engagement but ended up not trusting the hubs. Just got a wheelset with Vespers.


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

*New S35/Vesper wheelset*

Got my S35/Vesper wheelset from Fanatik yesterday and the wheels are gorgeous. 1780 grams with tape and valves (29er). Had the first ride on them today and what's immediately noticeable is a smooth, damp, quiet ride compared to the DT Swiss M1700 wheels I previously had on the bike. The smooth/damp part I'm sure is from the S35 rims (which actually measure 34.6mm internal). The quiet part is from the Vespers which are dead silent, so the only noise you hear is the tire on the trail, and the experience is really enjoyable. It sounds like a riding video where the audio is enhanced. The engagement is interesting. Engagement is instantaneous, however, there is a zone of "squish" or "give" for about 1-2 degrees before the engagement locks in and full torque is applied to the wheel. It feels very smooth compared to a metal pawl engaging a tooth on metal drive ring- the best analog I can think of is an automatic transmission compared to a manual transmission. Overall very happy with how the Vespers feel/ride.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

*Missing HG clips*

Hi fellas, 
Hope you are all well and having a happy Christmas.
I finally received the hub and it looks and feels great. 
Only one thing though, I think I'm missing a couple of the stainless clips that are to hold against the cassette:



















On the two different ones. I tried putting on a part of the cassette and its no where near as tight as a regular freehub.
Looking at the photos on the website it clearly show these two also have the clips in them.
Couldn't find the clips for order as spare parts. 
Any ideas? 
Is it possible to use like that? 
Can I fabricate something myself? 
Please help. I really want to ride this hub!


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

How about you call Onyx? They're very accessible and super friendly.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DogThree said:


> Hi fellas,
> Hope you are all well and having a happy Christmas.
> I finally received the hub and it looks and feels great.
> Only one thing though, I think I'm missing a couple of the stainless clips that are to hold against the cassette:
> ...


What clips are you talking about?

Regardless, if you're missing a part from a new hub then call Onyx and they'll send you whatever it is. You shouldn't have to fabricate a part.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

These clips:









In blue -the stainless steel clips that prevent the cassette from digging into the alloy freehub.
In red -is where they are missing.
Anyone here has this 11s configuration and can send a photo of his rig?
I have sent them a message. Only problem is I am not on the same continent as you guys


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

Just an update,
Received an email from Onyx. They say this is the way it was designed.
I still wonder why the photos on the website has all the slots protected by clips if the design leaves two without them.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

If there's only two without, they could very well be around the rear of the freehub in the photo you've seen.

From an engineering point if view, you don't need them all protected to avoid cutting into the Ali.


----------



## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

I just ordered a rear Vesper for Dave Thomas of Dave's Speed Dream to lace into my Roval Carbon Fattie SL rim, super stoked for the silence. I've tried the DT grease in my 54t ratchet, and while it quiets it down for a bit, within an hour or so it's right back to "pretty loud" again. 

Can't wait to start tracing down little noises now...haha


----------



## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

blaklabl said:


> I just ordered a rear Vesper for Dave Thomas of Dave's Speed Dream to lace into my Roval Carbon Fattie SL rim, super stoked for the silence. I've tried the DT grease in my 54t ratchet, and while it quiets it down for a bit, within an hour or so it's right back to "pretty loud" again.
> 
> Can't wait to start tracing down little noises now...haha


Got my wheel back last night, it's so silent and smooth! Can't wait to get out on the trails this weekend.

Unfortunately, I had the same "cassette and driver" falling off issue. I mounted my eagle cassette, flipped the wheel over to put the disc rotor back on, and the cassette and driver (and end cap) hit the floor. The only difference is that mine didn't bring the whole axle with it, just the cassette and driver. I sent ONYX an email to see what they say, the o-ring is in there and appears to be seated fine, I don't know. But when mounted up its awesome - just don't want to get on the trailside and have to make a repair, and have it hit the dirt and get all kinds of stuff inside.

I'll post up when I get a response.


----------



## blaklabl (Mar 14, 2011)

blaklabl said:


> Got my wheel back last night, it's so silent and smooth! Can't wait to get out on the trails this weekend.
> 
> Unfortunately, I had the same "cassette and driver" falling off issue. I mounted my eagle cassette, flipped the wheel over to put the disc rotor back on, and the cassette and driver (and end cap) hit the floor. The only difference is that mine didn't bring the whole axle with it, just the cassette and driver. I sent ONYX an email to see what they say, the o-ring is in there and appears to be seated fine, I don't know. But when mounted up its awesome - just don't want to get on the trailside and have to make a repair, and have it hit the dirt and get all kinds of stuff inside.
> 
> I'll post up when I get a response.


Response from Onyx:

_Hi Eric,

Apologies for the trouble there.
If the o-ring is not seating in the groove on the axle, you may need to twist the end cap to get it to seat in the groove.
If you would like to purchase new end caps the price is $20 per end cap, plus shipping. We did make the groove in the end cap a bit shallower to help the o-ring protrude and get a bit more traction on the axle.
Thank you,

Dan Peterson_

I'm going to try "twisting" the endcaps per the suggestion, but am a little disappointed that I would need to fork out $40 for new endcaps on a hub I just got a week ago. Seems like if there was an issue (obviously they knew about it, hence the change to the design), they would send the revised parts no charge.

No doubt the hub rips, holy crap it rolls so fast, but $460 and then to have a known issue still happening requiring a fix, not really cool in my opinion.


----------



## Hbnel5on (Dec 13, 2016)

blaklabl said:


> Response from Onyx:
> 
> _Hi Eric,
> 
> ...


They replaced my whole hub when it was causing me issues.. all $460 of it. Even had them change the color of it to be sure.


----------



## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

We've had a bunch of them come through the shop and customers seem to be super stoked on them. I am still a fan of the "classic" design from a looks perspective,, but that's the old school in me coming out


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Really dumb question but it's relevant to my purchase of an onyx hub so here goes - Is a shimano HG freehub the same for road and mtb 11 speed cassettes? Figured dusty can confirm for me :thumbsup:

I want to get a rear hub for my disc road bike and I'd rather get the centerlock vesper vs the cyclocross hub which appears to be the old version. I'm not into these hubs for trail riding but silent gliding on my road bike would be awesome.


----------



## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

92gli said:


> Really dumb question but it's relevant to my purchase of an onyx hub so here goes - Is a shimano HG freehub the same for road and mtb 11 speed cassettes? Figured dusty can confirm for me :thumbsup:
> 
> I want to get a rear hub for my disc road bike and I'd rather get the centerlock vesper vs the cyclocross hub which appears to be the old version. I'm not into these hubs for trail riding but silent gliding on my road bike would be awesome.


Yessir, they are the same. If you are running the hub with an 11 speed mtn. cassette, keep the included cassette spacer in place. If you are running 11 speed road cassette, remove the cassette spacer.

Thanks it


----------



## Inquisitor (May 2, 2010)

dustyduke22 said:


> Yessir, they are the same. If you are running the hub with an 11 speed mtn. cassette, keep the included cassette spacer in place. If you are running 11 speed road cassette, remove the cassette spacer.
> 
> Thanks it


Is this also true for the original Onyx MTB hubs? The website says they have 11-speed freehub bodies, but somebody told me they only take 10-speed road cassettes.

I'm currently trying to decide between the original and the Vesper for my gravel/endurance bike, which has an 11-speed Shimano road groupset (with a 11-34T HG700 cassette).

For me, reliability is absolutely the most important thing, so I quite like the idea of a hub that's a bit over-built. I want it to be bomb-proof. Weight doesn't bother me that much because my bike is usually laden with loads of extra crap anyway. I also prefer the classic looks of the original


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Inquisitor said:


> Is this also true for the original Onyx MTB hubs? The website says they have 11-speed freehub bodies, but somebody told me they only take 10-speed road cassettes.
> 
> I'm currently trying to decide between the original and the Vesper for my gravel/endurance bike, which has an 11-speed Shimano road groupset (with a 11-34T HG700 cassette).
> 
> For me, reliability is absolutely the most important thing, so I quite like the idea of a hub that's a bit over-built. I want it to be bomb-proof. Weight doesn't bother me that much because my bike is usually laden with loads of extra crap anyway. I also prefer the classic looks of the original


The freehub body should be the same and fit either 11spd mountain or road. The difference is the width of the cassettes. MTB 11spd is not as wide and will require a small spacer (1.8mm I think) behind the cassette. Should be supplied by the hub manufacturer.

Road 11spd cassettes require no spacer as they are slightly wider. For reference: 10 Spd road is the same width as 11spd mtn.


----------



## Inquisitor (May 2, 2010)

*OneSpeed* said:


> The freehub body should be the same and fit either 11spd mountain or road. The difference is the width of the cassettes. MTB 11spd is not as wide and will require a small spacer (1.8mm I think) behind the cassette. Should be supplied by the hub manufacturer.
> 
> Road 11spd cassettes require no spacer as they are slightly wider. For reference: 10 Spd road is the same width as 11spd mtn.


That's interesting - this contradicts what my LBS says :???: I'll double check with Onyx before ordering - better safe than sorry!

I remember having the same problem with my Hope Pro 2 Evo a few years ago - I had to make sure that I specifically ordered the wider freehub body that is 11sp-road-compatible. I think the standard one was designed only for MTB cassettes (and didn't have a removable spacer).

Thanks!


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Inquisitor said:


> That's interesting - this contradicts what my LBS says :???: I'll double check with Onyx before ordering - better safe than sorry!
> 
> I remember having the same problem with my Hope Pro 2 Evo a few years ago - I had to make sure that I specifically ordered the wider freehub body that is 11sp-road-compatible. I think the standard one was designed only for MTB cassettes (and didn't have a removable spacer).
> 
> Thanks!


Weird. I don't know of any US manufacturers that are spec'ing MTB only freehub bodies. The last 3-4 Hope hubs I've seen came with the spacer. All were Pro4 variants though.

Probably best to check with Onyx.


----------



## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Inquisitor said:


> Is this also true for the original Onyx MTB hubs? The website says they have 11-speed freehub bodies, but somebody told me they only take 10-speed road cassettes.
> 
> I'm currently trying to decide between the original and the Vesper for my gravel/endurance bike, which has an 11-speed Shimano road groupset (with a 11-34T HG700 cassette).
> 
> For me, reliability is absolutely the most important thing, so I quite like the idea of a hub that's a bit over-built. I want it to be bomb-proof. Weight doesn't bother me that much because my bike is usually laden with loads of extra crap anyway. I also prefer the classic looks of the original


Yessir, same with the old hub, unless you have a specific 10 speed hub. Then it wont work with an 11 speed road.

Both with give you a bomber setup. Vesper will just save the weight


----------



## BillT (Dec 24, 2003)

Just got a microspline vesper and wanted to post the weight in case anyone is interested


----------



## drtipes (Sep 27, 2018)

Who stocks them in EU, other than Evolutioncycles?


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm happy to report no slipping after the warranty fix from Onyx. These ride just like my old original onyx hubs, though they're 1/4 lb lighter.


----------



## Inquisitor (May 2, 2010)

drtipes said:


> Who stocks them in EU, other than Evolutioncycles?


I'm looking at getting mine from these guys: https://www.light-wolf.de/ But it works out just as expensive as ordering them yourself and paying all the associated import duties (but at least you don't have to deal with it yourself).

I asked my LBS in Germany about Onyx hubs and this shop was all they could find (no actual supplier).


----------



## Inquisitor (May 2, 2010)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Weird. I don't know of any US manufacturers that are spec'ing MTB only freehub bodies. The last 3-4 Hope hubs I've seen came with the spacer. All were Pro4 variants though.
> 
> Probably best to check with Onyx.


So according to Onyx, all of hubs currently shipping will be compatible with 11-speed road. The classic hub will also get an adapter for the "Moduler Freehub Unit" (so it can be used with Micro Spline), but it's not ready yet. They didn't give me an ETA.


----------



## bassamp (Jan 25, 2012)

Anyone done a side-by-side test, Vesper vs a hub with pawls, on a ledgy climb to see which was faster? I'm curious to know if the "soft engagement" has any effect on overall performance on technical climbs with lots of high-torque situations.


----------



## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Its a subtle thing that you may or may not be able to feel, but its not going to change your ability to make a climb


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

I agree. I have vespers, original onyx, and i9 Hydra on my bikes. All of them are great and can all get you up a ledgy climb. I like the vespers the best.

Once engwgee, they all feel the same. The soft engagement doesn't really take up any rotation. It's practically instant.


----------



## hrdude (Feb 17, 2006)

I find it interesting that people talk about a "soft" feel with Onyx hubs. I have the Vespers laced to carbon wheels and have found them to be the best hubs I have ever used. I never realized what I was missing until I started riding the Vespers. The engagement is instantaneous and allows me to get through technical sections and up the other side of dips that I could never clean before. At 205lbs, I have not found the engagement to be soft or mushy but just very smooth and direct. As an additional benefit, this smoothness also seems to have improved the shifting on my SRAM 12 speed drivetrain. Very stoked so far with these hubs and hope they last a long time.


----------



## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

Sit on your bike with the chain on one of the larger cogs. Lock the rear wheel in place with the rear brake and push on a pedal. You’ll clearly see the crank arm rotate while the hub is locked in place. There’s your soft engagement or squish zone in high torque situations.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

hrdude said:


> I find it interesting that people talk about a "soft" feel with Onyx hubs. I have the Vespers laced to carbon wheels and have found them to be the best hubs I have ever used. I never realized what I was missing until I started riding the Vespers. The engagement is instantaneous and allows me to get through technical sections and up the other side of dips that I could never clean before. At 205lbs, I have not found the engagement to be soft or mushy but just very smooth and direct. As an additional benefit, this smoothness also seems to have improved the shifting on my SRAM 12 speed drivetrain. Very stoked so far with these hubs and hope they last a long time.





mlloyd007 said:


> Sit on your bike with the chain on one of the larger cogs. Lock the rear wheel in place with the rear brake and push on a pedal. You'll clearly see the crank arm rotate while the hub is locked in place. There's your soft engagement or squish zone in high torque situations.


and just for fun, infinite/instant engagement DOES NOT equal instant transmission. The sprawls have to stand up to bind the free hub driver to the hub shell. There is a time delay and a distance associated with the physics of the sprawls standing up...hence the slop at the end of the crank arm.


----------



## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm curious what the recommended maintenance for the Vesper hubs is. I've been using DT Swiss 240s hubs for years now, mostly because they are so simple to take care of. I love the idea of nearly silent hubs, and I don't have any issue with the soft engagement that I've read about with these, but I haven't seen much discussion of how easy the hubs are to service and maintain.


----------



## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

zero maintenance required for my onyx hubs in over 5,000 miles.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> and just for fun, infinite/instant engagement DOES NOT equal instant transmission. The sprawls have to stand up to bind the free hub driver to the hub shell. There is a time delay and a distance associated with the physics of the sprawls standing up...hence the slop at the end of the crank arm.


Sprawls?

I'll grant you the fact that it's not instant transmission. In a lab setting.

But it's fast enough for 99.99999% of humans, out in the world.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Sprawls?
> 
> I'll grant you the fact that it's not instant transmission. In a lab setting.
> 
> But it's fast enough for 99.99999% of humans, out in the world.


sprawls? yeah. sprawls. those things that stand up and bind the freehub body to the hubshell. dont shoot the messenger, see 1:30, 1:57 and 2:05 in Onyx's own video:






will you grant me the fact that it is also not instant transmission in real life? if you will recall, post #140 of this topic is the video where i show the cranks spinning with no power transmission in the hub. i remember you calling me out that in post #139 saying that I will get used to it, and its not slipping.

the point of the point is that instant engagement does not equal instant transmission, especially if there is any slip, which several of us have experienced. i don't care about instant anything. that's not why i ride these hubs. i just like the silence...it lets me know how poor the maintenance is on the rest of my bike. although, my bike has never been quieter now that i cannot ride it as the hubs are off for a second diagnosis/fix. maybe i'll use the downtime to supplement the hub's silence by knocking out that maintenance, haha.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> sprawls? yeah. sprawls. those things that stand up and bind the freehub body to the hubshell. dont shoot the messenger, see 1:30, 1:57 and 2:05 in Onyx's own video:


easy chief -- i wasn't shooting anybody, i'd just never heard that term before. now i know.



tdc_worm said:


> will you grant me the fact that it is also not instant transmission in real life? if you will recall, post #140 of this topic is the video where i show the cranks spinning with no power transmission in the hub. i remember you calling me out that in post #139 saying that I will get used to it, and its not slipping.
> 
> the point of the point is that instant engagement does not equal instant transmission, especially if there is any slip


iirc your hub was broken. which is a bummer.

but i don't think, generally speaking, that people are speaking in terms of malfunctioning hubs when they talk about engagement.

maybe i'm misinformed on that...


----------



## mrob (Apr 8, 2015)

tdc_worm said:


> sprawls? yeah. sprawls. those things that stand up and bind the freehub body to the hubshell. dont shoot the messenger, see 1:30, 1:57 and 2:05 in Onyx's own video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sprag - engagement system used by Onyx 
Pawls - common engagement system used by many hub companies
Sprawl - dunno

I saw post 140, and it seems most people agree there is a defect. I also saw post 143 where @mikesee owned the misunderstanding. I also read post 144 where things seemed to be "all good"

Onyx hubs, when working right, are as close to instant as you'll get (1-2 degrees of engagement). That's not what you experienced in your video, but I think we all can agree that is a malfunction (the slipping). That slip doesn't exist in standard production hubs. The amount of torque applied to a wheel that is almost immobilized in a stand (to create that slip) is not typical of general use. Could you over-torque a sprag clutch hub to create slipping - I'm sure it's possible.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

mrob said:


> Onyx hubs, when working right, are as close to instant as you'll get (1-2 degrees of engagement). That's not what you experienced in your video, but I think we all can agree that is a malfunction (the slipping). That slip doesn't exist in standard production hubs.


Both are standard production hubs. Unless you are suggesting that Onyx shipped pre production hubs to We Are One and ProBikeSupply?



mrob said:


> The amount of torque applied to a wheel that is almost immobilized in a stand (to create that slip) is not typical of general use. Could you over-torque a sprag clutch hub to create slipping - I'm sure it's possible.


nah. the stand has no impact on the power produced by my legs, which the drivetrain then converts to torque. all bike riding starts from zero mph, which is the speed of the bike in the stand. all the stand is doing is providing a square edge, and allowing me to balance to demonstrate the slipping on video. i can do it with one foot on the ground and rear brake squeezed, out of the stand, just as easy. a track stand, slow square edge step ups, and accelerating up steep techy climbs all comes to mind as real world scenarios, all of which i have felt slip.

but lets assume your premise may be true. if it is true, then it is more damming to the reliability of the hub. so with less torque, i can make them slip in both 50 and 42t on the trail.

you don't have to believe my 2 (now 4) vesper failures or the others that have experienced the same issue...but we are providing real world data points. i am not emotionally attached to these hubs, to the legacy Onyx hub I broke, or to the I9 or P321 hubs that I have stripped the drive rings out of. Its an early adopters tax which I am comfortable with. I am confident Onyx will get it fixed.


----------



## bassamp (Jan 25, 2012)

I decided to pull the trigger on an Onyx Vesper for my new wheelset. I think something's wrong with mine. I expected it to have less hub drag than my White Industries hub because the Onyx has no pawls, but the White will consistently spin for 8-10 seconds, while the Vesper is a consistent 4-5 seconds (as counted in my head). It's also not exactly silent either. Does this look (and sound) right to you guys?


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Sound on the Onyx is about right. Have you had them long enough to bed them in yet?


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Yeah, they just need to get some miles on them. My very first set was super smooth and free feeling from day one, but newer sets have been noticeably tighter at first. Someone at Onyx told me they tightened up their specs a touch and it makes for more of a distinct break in period. And with the smaller sprag assembly in the Vespers and the slipping problems some people reported, they may have even tightened them up a bit more. The sprags require a very precise fit to work correctly.


----------



## bassamp (Jan 25, 2012)

onzadog said:


> Sound on the Onyx is about right. Have you had them long enough to bed them in yet?


I took that video before riding them, but I put 20+ miles of trail on them yesterday, then removed the wheel afterward to check it. The drag is still exactly the same (cassette spins about 4 seconds when I turn it hard by hand), but the noise has gone away and it's now silent.

The bigger issue is the slippage I encountered on my ride. It was significant while riding a sustained, steep climb in my 50t (Toys R Us road climb next to BCGB 360 access for anyone who knows it). I got dropped big time (and it wasn't because of the rider that day). I could feel the cranks losing resistance with each big push through the steepest part. At the top I did some track stands while holding my brakes and was able to demonstrate the slippage to my riding bud, though it was way more apparent during the climb. What's interesting is that I did not notice any slippage on short punchy single track climbs, with lots of technical ledges and I probably cleaned more than average this day.

Gonna work with my LBS and Onyx to see if anything needs repair, but I'm concerned this may be a design defect, not a manufacturing defect, based on other comments here. In which case I'll switch to a different hub, rather than wait for Onyx to work it out, because the slippage was significant enough I'm not willing to put up with it.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I hate that climb!

Anyways, if you want to pedal a P321 in S. Austin you'r welcome to PM me for a quick pedal around. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

tdc_worm said:


> Its an early adopters tax which I am comfortable with. I am confident Onyx will get it fixed.


Have they solved this for you yet? Curious what steps they've taken, and what difference each step has made.


----------



## ViperDom (Sep 28, 2016)

bassamp said:


> The bigger issue is the slippage I encountered on my ride.


Two questions for you:
- How much do you weigh?
- On the climb was it slipping during seated efforts, standing efforts, or both?

I'm curious if the slipping occurs at a certain torque threshold. If so then a lighter rider with a 36 or 42 big gear might not have nearly as much to worry about as a heavy rider pushing a 50t.

Thoughts?


----------



## bassamp (Jan 25, 2012)

ViperDom said:


> Two questions for you:
> - How much do you weigh?
> - On the climb was it slipping during seated efforts, standing efforts, or both?
> 
> ...


Maybe. I'm 195lbs, 14bfp, 6'2" and race SS (and geared sometimes). I was seated. I think it's interesting that this occurred during a sustained climb, while the rest of my ride that day was short punchy stuff. I'm gonna ride this wheel again on Friday and target similar climbs, so I'll report back on results. Talking with Onyx as well.


----------



## FarmerTed. (Feb 20, 2020)

*Vesper Slippage*

Here is my experience with the Vesper and the slippage issue:

I have had a a set of wheels with Onyx Classic hubs with several years and thousands of trouble free miles on them.

In September I ordered a set of wheels from Light Bicycle with the Vesper hubs. I noticed them slipping on the first ride on steep climbs where I had to put the power down to get myself over a rock or root. It only slipped in the 30/50 gear but I could reproduce it consistently. For the record I'm and expert level rider with 30+ years of experience, weigh 195lbs suited up, and ride in the steep and technical terrain of Northern Colorado.

I contacted Onyx and they sent out a new set of sprag clutches and said they had some that were made to the incorrect tolerance so there was a chance they could slip. Installed those and it still slipped.

Next, I sent my wheel back to them and they rebuilt the hub for me with all new internals and upgraded me to ceramic bearings for free. I got it back and it slipped on the first ride.

After contacting them again, they had Light Bicycle build me a new wheel with a new Vesper hub and, guess what? It slipped on the first ride.

After contacting them again, they said they were having problems with the cylinder that the sprags contact to transmit torque deforming under load and that was causing the slippage. They offered to send out the parts and guaranteed that it would fix the problem but I requested for them to swap me over to a classic hub, which they did after I sent my wheel in to them. they rebuilt my wheel with the classic hub and also gave me a great deal on a front wheel so I had a matching front classic hub. Since I've gotten the classic wheelset back, I haven't had any issues.

I think there's a definite issue with the design of the Vesper hub for heavy/ strong riders who ride steep technical terrain with low gearing. Smaller riders who don't put as much torque through the hub would probably never have the issue. Perhaps Onyx has fixed the issue by now.

I will say that Onyx was 100% awesome through all of this and were always ready to answer my questions and resolve the issue. when I said I was done with the Vesper and wanted a classic, they didn't hesitate at all and they paid all the shipping back and forth.

I was a little frustrated at times because It basically took 2 months to get this all resolved but I have other wheels and other bikes so I was still able to ride through it all. It wasn't worth getting upset about and Onyx' customer service was always great. I absolutely love the classic hubs and wouldn't hesitate to buy them again. Hopefully they get the issues with the Vesper figured out and it doesn't tarnish their reputation too much.

I think one of the issues with the vesper is that it's using a smaller sprag setup than the classic to save weight. It's effectively "1.5" clutches instead of the 2 in the classic (one of the ones in the vesper is narrower). That means it can't transfer as much torque as the classic without slipping. FWIW, they are recommending the classic hub for DH and E-Bikes because it's stronger. I think the vesper may just not have enough torque transfer capability for strong/ heavy riders + low gearing + steep climbs.


----------



## jdkobe (Apr 24, 2006)

Any more rider updates on Vespers ?


----------



## johnzm (Feb 10, 2020)

i am also watching this thread and interested. it seems as if the people that are really having issues have destroyed other hubs in the past.


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I haven't had an issue on my Vesper.


----------



## Incogneato (Mar 10, 2020)

jdkobe said:


> Any more rider updates on Vespers ?


I recently had a wheel set built by Fanatik with the vespers. They just came a couple of weeks ago and I've had zero issues with them so far, but I've only ridden on them for 4 hours (2 rides). I've not had any slippage, but I'm a pretty light guy: 5'9", 140 pounds. I have gained 7 pounds over the off season so I'm at my heaviest right now. The Vesper's do have instant engagement, as advertised, although I was already running Bontrager 54T Rapid Drive with the 108T upgrade which I believe was 3.5 degrees of engagement so there wasn't a huge difference for me. Even with the 108T upgrade on the Bontrager hub I would still occasionally hear the pawls engaging, most likely because they would happen to be at their peak distance from engagement when I began pedaling. Obviously, you don't get that at all with the Vesper's.

I'm fortunate that I have not encountered the slippage the a couple of others have. Hopefully it stays that way. It could be that I'm not heavy enough? I have not tried putting all my weight and pushing down with force on one pedal while holding the front brake and I don't think I'm going to. But I have done that without holding the front brake while on pavement and there was zero slippage.

I wish I could give an A/B comparison between the Bontrager 108T Rapid Drive hubs and the Vesper's but I last rode my old hubs in November 2019 and took the Vesper's out for the first time last week (March 2020). I am way out of shape after having not ridden for the past 4 months so I couldn't climb as hard as I used to be able to, nor ride as long. With that said, I have a lot of miles on my old hubs so I know what they feel like and the Vesper's performed great. I'll be honest - I really didn't notice a difference on the climbs, nor did I expect to. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. What I did notice was the peace and quiet of not hearing the pawls. It's so nice just hearing the tires on the trail. You start to notice other things, like cables rubbing together or a leaf getting stuck between your tire and fork haha. For me, the Vesper's were worth every penny.

I just remembered that someone had posted a video not too long ago about how their Vesper hub didn't free spin as freely as their old hub. Mine didn't either, but it's not a drastic difference. Maybe they need to break in?

I'll definitely post again once I have put a couple of months on them to give an update. If something bad goes down I'll post earlier than that.

Here's a quick video if anyone cares. That slight noise you hear is the rotor rubbing against the pad - I need to adjust the caliper a touch.


----------



## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

Hope they get the reported issues settled. 

As a weight weenie, I totally dismissed the onyx hubs...but with the new vespers dropping some weight, I think the one use I MIGHT be able to justify them is for a new SS build - simple, silent (er...light?) - esp. paired with some Berd spokes. 

At 140lbs and 53yrs I don't generate a lot of torque, and as a finesse rider of long experience, I rarely break parts or encounter issues that riders pushing the limits do, so I imagine I'd be safe with the new vespers...but this thread certainly makes me wonder.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

jdkobe said:


> Any more rider updates on Vespers ?


Mine are holding strong after one (or has it been two already) seasons. I haven't ridden gingerly either.


----------



## KellyE (Apr 20, 2010)

Dusty at Hubsessed recently built me up a Vesper wheelset. I have about 100 miles on the hubs with no problems. They have performed great with better freespin and (obviously) quicker engagement than my Hadley hubs.

I am about 180 lbs and love climbing. The bike is a Knolly Fugitive LT which is a climbing beast.


----------



## hartmtb (Sep 14, 2019)

This doesn’t look good! I am battling between a vesper or hydra build on Nobl tr37’s and really love the idea of low drag and silence. Seems like they are having real issues with high torque situations. At 190lbs and all my riding being high torque big up moves. I think I need to go with the hydra. I’m bummed about the issues. Seemed like a dream hub. I will say I have pedaled the hydra and it has a soft feel too but I believe it because I have low engagement hubs and with the hydras there is no clunk.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

I've got 20 lbs on you buck naked with a 50 tooth cassette and like rocky techy climbs and I've had no issues.


----------



## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

hartmtb said:


> This doesn't look good! I am battling between a vesper or hydra build on Nobl tr37's and really love the idea of low drag and silence. Seems like they are having real issues with high torque situations. At 190lbs and all my riding being high torque big up moves. I think I need to go with the hydra. I'm bummed about the issues. Seemed like a dream hub. I will say I have pedaled the hydra and it has a soft feel too but I believe it because I have low engagement hubs and with the hydras there is no clunk.


FWIW, I ride with a strong experienced rider who has been riding Vespers for a few months. He loves them. BUT, he's commented repeatedly that he's felt slippage under max torque situations in gear 50 (Eagle). He weighs 165 lbs

I have Hydras and really dig them. Coming from years on I-9 Torch and King hubs, they sound very quiet to me and the engagement is quick enough to be, practically, instantaneous. But, no, they are not Onyx quiet or quick.


----------



## Ineedmorecowbell (Jun 16, 2010)

hartmtb said:


> This doesn't look good! I am battling between a vesper or hydra build on Nobl tr37's and really love the idea of low drag and silence. Seems like they are having real issues with high torque situations. At 190lbs and all my riding being high torque big up moves. I think I need to go with the hydra. I'm bummed about the issues. Seemed like a dream hub. I will say I have pedaled the hydra and it has a soft feel too but I believe it because I have low engagement hubs and with the hydras there is no clunk.


Interested in the tr37's as well but, I can't seem to find any reviews.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Ineedmorecowbell said:


> Interested in the tr37's as well but, I can't seem to find any reviews.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I got TR37 rims from Nobl, currently building them up on Hydras as a lockdown project. No rides yet but they appear beautifully made, look cool with the slight ripple to the surface, are advertised weights, have a nice offset and alternating spoke hole directional drilling. Will report once I've ridden them but I expect that to be pretty boring (they go round and round.) Definitely no regrets on the purchase.


----------



## Ineedmorecowbell (Jun 16, 2010)

DrewBird said:


> I got TR37 rims from Nobl, currently building them up on Hydras as a lockdown project. No rides yet but they appear beautifully made, look cool with the slight ripple to the surface, are advertised weights, have a nice offset and alternating spoke hole directional drilling. Will report once I've ridden them but I expect that to be pretty boring (they go round and round.) Definitely no regrets on the purchase.


Do these have a different build spec? Are these the rims built to mimic the cb synthesis?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hartmtb (Sep 14, 2019)

They are front and rear specific rims. The rear has an extra layup for stiffness and durability. The front is made to be more compliant. The front is also wider to accommodate a wider front tire.


----------



## Ineedmorecowbell (Jun 16, 2010)

hartmtb said:


> They are front and rear specific rims. The rear has an extra layup for stiffness and durability. The front is made to be more compliant. The front is also wider to accommodate a wider front tire.


Do you have any time on these?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hartmtb (Sep 14, 2019)

No I’m still in the hub choice game. Can’t decide between onyx, i9, or dt240’s. Leaning towards i9 because of all the trouble people having with the vesper.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

There's a new 240 EXP just been released if you want to confuse things further.


----------



## hartmtb (Sep 14, 2019)

Thats what has me considering 240. But Not sure how much I believe that you get excessive pedal kickback from hubs with high engagement. I have 10 degree hubs right now and they are slow to engagement and can be clunky. Anyone ever feel this on onyx or hydra’s?


----------



## dulken (Nov 26, 2019)

hartmtb said:


> Thats what has me considering 240. But Not sure how much I believe that you get excessive pedal kickback from hubs with high engagement. I have 10 degree hubs right now and they are slow to engagement and can be clunky. Anyone ever feel this on onyx or hydra's?


This video does a great job of explaining scenarios of when you might feel pedal kickback. Worth the watch.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-does-your-suspension-really-work-better-without-a-chain.html


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I feel kickback during slow tech climbing but I kinda like it. Instead of the suspension compressing freely, it pushes against my feet and facilitates forward motion. Did I just post the first pro-kickback post in history?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

hartmtb said:


> Thats what has me considering 240. But Not sure how much I believe that you get excessive pedal kickback from hubs with high engagement. I have 10 degree hubs right now and they are slow to engagement and can be clunky. Anyone ever feel this on onyx or hydra's?


Wouldn't that have more to do with your suspension design rather than the hubs?

When I get on my older bike without Onyx hubs the free play in the ratchet now is super noticeable and annoying.


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Nat said:


> Do you mean like this? Mine fell apart too.
> 
> View attachment 1263059


Like several others my vesper driver just falls off with the smallest amount of pressure. When the cassette is mounted it basically falls off if you lean the wheel over a little. Anyway, Onyx was nice enough to send me a new axle and end caps. The non drive side end cap now has a tiny axle bolt that you can use to tighten up the end cap against the axle. I've got to lean the wheel over further now to get the driver/cassette to fall off but it still falls off.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

noosa2 said:


> Like several others my vesper driver just falls off with the smallest amount of pressure. When the cassette is mounted it basically falls off if you lean the wheel over a little. Anyway, Onyx was nice enough to send me a new axle and end caps. The non drive side end cap now has a tiny axle bolt that you can use to tighten up the end cap against the axle. I've got to lean the wheel over further now to get the driver/cassette to fall off but it still falls off.


Interesting. Perhaps they'll send me one too.


----------



## Mark K (Jul 4, 2018)

What is the spacer for?

Just received my wheels with Vesper hubs and in the box was a spacer and a small black plastic piece. No instructions were included so I’m not sure if the washer/spacer is needed. My cassette is a SRAM 1x12 Eagle. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mark K said:


> What is the spacer for?
> 
> Just received my wheels with Vesper hubs and in the box was a spacer and a small black plastic piece. No instructions were included so I'm not sure if the washer/spacer is needed. My cassette is a SRAM 1x12 Eagle.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Was it an O-ring on the cassette driver? If so, remove it. It was just for shipping or something like that. See post #83 in this thread. Does it sound like the same thing you have?

If that's not it then post a pic.


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

Spacer is for all MTB cassettes. You remove it if you're running a road cassette. That's at least how my XD driver is done. They only made an XD-R driver and you need to space out MTB cassettes.


----------



## Mark K (Jul 4, 2018)

Nat said:


> Was it an O-ring on the cassette driver? If so, remove it. It was just for shipping or something like that. See post #83 in this thread. Does it sound like the same thing you have?
> 
> If that's not it then post a pic.


No O-ring on the driver. Just an envelope containing the spacer.

I found post #83 but did not notice an o-ring on the driver.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

The washer is for 10 speed casettes.


----------



## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

Any more slippage reports on the vesper? I am building a set of wheels and want to go onyx. I am on 12sp shimano so I need microspline and as far as I know the classics do not offer that option.


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I'm 160lbs and sprinted out of the saddle up some pretty steep grades yesterday. No slippage. In fact I ordered another set of hubs.


----------



## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

I should have put I am always between 220 and 230 lbs (or more depending on what I am carrying). I seem to be pretty easy on wheels, been riding the same dt240's for past 10 years. However slippage would suck, especially when laying out good money.

Thanks for your comments


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm 200 lbs and I've tried to get mine to slip, but couldn't. You can always get the classic Onyx hubs with larger Sprags.


----------



## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

dduk said:


> I'm 200 lbs and I've tried to get mine to slip, but couldn't. You can always get the classic Onyx hubs with larger Sprags.


I considered that but I don't think they have microspline yet. I guess I need to call them Monday to see ETA, if they will give it.


----------



## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

I heard only the first batch of the Vesper's slipped and the problem has been fixed.


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

Now that I have installed the new axle and end caps on my vesper it has side to side play. My classic onyx hub has a cinch collar that you can use to adjust the preload and remove the play but the vesper does it have the same collar. How do I remove the side to side play on the vesper?


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Have you got the end cap fully located? There shouldn't be any play unless the bearings are warn. Is this with the wheel in, or out of the frame?


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

onzadog said:


> Have you got the end cap fully located? There shouldn't be any play unless the bearings are warn. Is this with the wheel in, or out of the frame?


Wheel in the frame. I'm not sure about getting the end caps fully located...I've messed around with trying to get them to seat (like a nice solid click or something) but neither the original ones or these replacement ones that Onyx sent seem to really snap in or fully seat anywhere.


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

onzadog said:


> Have you got the end cap fully located? There shouldn't be any play unless the bearings are warn. Is this with the wheel in, or out of the frame?


I pulled the new axle and end caps and compared them to the old ones. The new non drive side end cap that came with a grub screw (which I thought was a great idea) is several mm shorter than the old one (and a totally different shape). Anyway,I put the old non drive side end cap back on and while the cassette/driver assembly now easily falls off again I have no side to side play.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

BeerCan said:


> I considered that but I don't think they have microspline yet. I guess I need to call them Monday to see ETA, if they will give it.


They finally got their MicroSpline license from Shimano, Classic hub conversion kits are in production and will be shipping very soon. There should be an option to order them that way as soon as they get all the people waiting for kits taken care of.


----------



## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

Velodonata said:


> They finally got their MicroSpline license from Shimano, Classic hub conversion kits are in production and will be shipping very soon. There should be an option to order them that way as soon as they get all the people waiting for kits taken care of.


yeah I think my wheelbuilder was able to order the classics with microspline. At least they have not contacted me with any issues related to the order.


----------



## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Need to get some wheels built and was torn between the Vespers and the Chris Kings. I'll keep an eye on this thread. With a new baby and precious time to ride, I can't be futzing around with hub warranty issues. The only thing I like about the Onyx hubs is the lack of sound. That is appealing, though I find CK pleasing enough. Still, I would like to try some seriously quiet hubs.


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

Flyer said:


> Need to get some wheels built and was torn between the Vespers and the Chris Kings. I'll keep an eye on this thread. With a new baby and precious time to ride, I can't be futzing around with hub warranty issues. The only thing I like about the Onyx hubs is the lack of sound. That is appealing, though I find CK pleasing enough. Still, I would like to try some seriously quiet hubs.


I switched from riding Kings for over 15 years to now riding the Vesper. Absolutely love them. Silent hubs are awesome. If I didn't go Vesper then I would probably go P321.


----------



## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Yeah, I get it. That is the only reason I started looking at them...the lack of noise. With these new Vespers, I think I will wait bit to have a wheelset built up. Like I said, I have no time to mess around with unlacing hubs or finding a box and shipping wheels back to Onyx. The originals are a bit too heavy or I'd get those.


----------



## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Anyone had any trouble mounting on the xd driver? I have a TRS+ cassette and I cannot get it to go on the vesper I just laced. After futzing about for a bit I verified the cassette fits on a race face hub and hope driver. It is driving me a bit bonkers after it took so long to get all the pieces and build the wheels. I emailed Dan, but it is Saturday and I don't expect anything from him for a while so I thought I would ask here.


----------



## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

Flyer said:


> Yeah, I get it. That is the only reason I started looking at them...the lack of noise. With these new Vespers, I think I will wait bit to have a wheelset built up. Like I said, I have no time to mess around with unlacing hubs or finding a box and shipping wheels back to Onyx. The originals are a bit too heavy or I'd get those.


You can opt for the aluminum freehub body. The stainless steel one is what makes it heavy.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


----------



## Lou Sashole (Jun 28, 2020)

It's disconcerting to read about some of the QC/slippage issues on some of the Vespers. I've called into Onyx a few times to ask some questions about a potential wheel set utilizing their hubs, and the guys on the phone are very patient and informative. But every time I discuss their hubs I feel like I'm being steered by them towards the classic hubs instead of Vesper. Maybe they really are having issues with the new design in the Vesper?


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Lou Sashole said:


> ...I feel like I'm being steered by them towards the classic hubs instead of Vesper. Maybe they really are having issues with the new design in the Vesper?


How are you describing your riding style to them? Are you a heavy and/or powerful rider? My impression is that there have definitely been some issues, and that there is a ceiling with the Vespers to what they can handle without the potential for some slipping compared to the classic hubs, which seem to be adequate for just about anything. 1.5 sprag clutches versus 2 seems to give up all the extra torque handling ability that makes the classics seem bulletproof.

I would assume they are limited by what is manufactured since they probably don't buy enough to request custom sizing from the Sprag manufacturer, but there is probably a sweet spot in there where a wider single clutch could fall safely in between the capacity of the Vesper and Classic and maybe still be weight competitive with the Vesper.

I'm a big guy and sticking with the Classics, but if I were building a set for a lighter rider I wouldn't have a problem going with the Vespers.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Lou Sashole said:


> It's disconcerting to read about some of the QC/slippage issues on some of the Vespers. I've called into Onyx a few times to ask some questions about a potential wheel set utilizing their hubs, and the guys on the phone are very patient and informative. But every time I discuss their hubs I feel like I'm being steered by them towards the classic hubs instead of Vesper. Maybe they really are having issues with the new design in the Vesper?


I built up a set for a 220lb dude who has a tendency to mash vs spin his way up climbs. Also, I've done my share of trials moves including pedal kicks on that bike, with no issues. No slippage on that set at least.


----------



## n1cholasj (Nov 23, 2017)

Does the vesper use DT swiss free hub body for microspline compatibility?


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

n1cholasj said:


> Does the vesper use DT swiss free hub body for microspline compatibility?


They used to, but they now have a Shimano MicroSpline license and have started producing their own.


----------



## BigHerm (May 21, 2018)

sxotty said:


> Anyone had any trouble mounting on the xd driver? I have a TRS+ cassette and I cannot get it to go on the vesper I just laced. After futzing about for a bit I verified the cassette fits on a race face hub and hope driver. It is driving me a bit bonkers after it took so long to get all the pieces and build the wheels. I emailed Dan, but it is Saturday and I don't expect anything from him for a while so I thought I would ask here.


I had a hard time mounting an X01 Eagle cassette until I realized the inner spinny part (science) was stuck. Got that unstuck and everything lined up and installed easily.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Questions were made previously about the availability of Onyx hubs inside EU. This is one option

4130.fi: Onyx Racing Products - EU Sales


----------



## Incogneato (Mar 10, 2020)

Incogneato said:


> I recently had a wheel set built by Fanatik with the vespers. They just came a couple of weeks ago and I've had zero issues with them so far, but I've only ridden on them for 4 hours (2 rides).
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> I'll definitely post again once I have put a couple of months on them to give an update. If something bad goes down I'll post earlier than that.


I figured I would give an update as I've got hundreds of miles on these now. I've been fortunate that I have had zero issues with my Vespers. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm a pretty light guy so that may have something to do with it. I do a lot of climbing and haven't had any slippage or any other issues. Other than the lack of sound they feel exactly like my old hubs. I have to say that I don't know if I could ever go back to noisy hubs 

Of course, should I have any issues I'll definitely report back in.


----------



## CorBillionaire (Jul 20, 2020)

I just received my new set of NOBL TR37s with vesper hubs and I really wish I had read this thread before I placed the order.

If I knew the vespers came apart so easily and had slipping issues I probably would have gone with the I9 hydras. 

Unfortunately I discovered the lock ring issue when I was carrying my wheels to the car and I watched in horror as my brand new cassette fell from waist height onto the pavement. I thought my hubs were broken but I guess that's just how they are designed. They really should come with a warning about how easily they come apart so customers aren't left dumbfounded when it happens. An even better idea would have been to use a light press fit or another form of retention so this doesn't happen to begin with.


----------



## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

My cassette doesn't fall off no matter how hard I pull it. Maybe they updated it on the newer hubs?


----------



## Lou Sashole (Jun 28, 2020)

CorBillionaire said:


> I just received my new set of NOBL TR37s with vesper hubs and I really wish I had read this thread before I placed the order.
> 
> If I knew the vespers came apart so easily and had slipping issues I probably would have gone with the I9 hydras.
> 
> Unfortunately I discovered the lock ring issue when I was carrying my wheels to the car and I watched in horror as my brand new cassette fell from waist height onto the pavement. I thought my hubs were broken but I guess that's just how they are designed. They really should come with a warning about how easily they come apart so customers aren't left dumbfounded when it happens. An even better idea would have been to use a light press fit or another form of retention so this doesn't happen to begin with.


Well you're a billionaire, so buy another one you rich mother****er.

I ended up ordering i9 system build with Hydra hubs instead of vesper after reading about some of the issues on this site.


----------



## Alboogie (Jun 25, 2020)

*I weigh over 260 w/ new Shimano 12spd*

I have frequently ridden with the 51T/30T on my Shimano 12sp on steep techy stuff and have never ever slipped.

As a matter of fact, I've been riding pretty brutally for the past month and I have yet to experience any problems with the Vespers. My driver has never fallen out either. I'm a strong guy and I takes a pretty strong tug to get the driver to pull through at all.

BTW I have RaceFace AR 35 rims if that matters and plenty of miles on these.

P.S. I have a wheel being laced as we speak with a red anondized Onyx Vesper cuz i love them that much, I can't go back to buzzing hubs


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Crooked Cop said:


> My cassette doesn't fall off no matter how hard I pull it. Maybe they updated it on the newer hubs?


Mine doesn't have that lockring thing.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Considering an onyx rear hub for a new rear wheel. Trying to decide between the classic and the vesper (and a hydra technically). 

I’ve been speaking with my builder about some of the issues I’ve heard about here with the vesper. He said that people have had issues with vespers, but that he thought that was more of an “initial production run” issue, and that they’ve been improved since then. But still did recommend the classic as a likely more reliable choice. 

Does anyone know if the newer vespers are having issues too?

I’m 6’1” ~185-190lbs without gear, and was a competitive soccer player for a long time in my past (so maybe stronger than average legs) but am otherwise your average weekend warrior these days, if that matters at all. 

Also, how is durability/bearing life on these things?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> 185-190lbs without gear/was a competitive soccer player/stronger than average legs.


Get the Classic hub instead of the Vesper. You won't notice the weight difference while riding but it'll be more reliable.


----------



## joby (Jul 19, 2006)

ocnLogan said:


> I'm 6'1" ~185-190lbs without gear, and was a competitive soccer player for a long time in my past (so maybe stronger than average legs) but am otherwise your average weekend warrior these days, if that matters at all.
> 
> Also, how is durability/bearing life on these things?


I run about 210 fully geared up and built this up a few weeks ago. So far, no issues like the reports about the initial production run. DT AeroComp spokes and XM481 rim. Spoke tension was surprisingly good on the non-drive side (close to 70% of the drive side).


----------



## PUNKY (Apr 26, 2010)

Really weird about the Vesper issues. Since it sounded like the Vesper was created to get around the MS driver. 
Happy to hear the Classic is getting a MS driver option. Will likely stay Classic CLs from here on out.


----------



## gregson10 (Aug 30, 2020)

I'm right at 1120 miles with an Onyx Vesper custom built in early March 2020 into a Bontrager Aeolus Pro 3V wheel on my 1X gravel bike, 40t front, 10-50t rear. I ride with a power meter and pay attention to when weird equipment stuff happens. I the study the charts and graphs I get from Garmin Connect after every ride. I have only had one issue with the Vesper at ~62 miles (mid-March) where it slipped maybe half a rotation, while I was standing and delivering a very, very brief burst of about 580 Watts to get some speed over a little rise that's only about a 3% grade, and my power chart logged that sudden momentary dip in power when I reviewed it later on. I weigh 165lbs and don't consider myself a strong rider in any sense. But that slippage really got my attention when it happened. I have tried many times since to repeat this failure, to no avail. The Vesper has worked flawlessly ever since in both very cold and very hot weather. I guess it needed to break in a little?

To address the other issues some folks are having, I've never had the cassette and drive or end caps simply fall off when leaning the tire no more than--30 degrees?--to maintain something about the rear wheel. I have to pull them off and the end caps have a little O-ring inside that seems to keep things together in most situations. I imagine that it's possible they can slip off if the wheel is oriented parallel to the ground because that Eagle cassette is no light weight component. That said, I would agree that Onyx could at least WARN US that such a thing can happen!


----------



## bayposter (Aug 19, 2020)

I like the idea of a quiet rear hub but was disappointed to read about the issues with the first release of the Vesper, namely, the sprag clutch slipping (however infrequently) and the weak end caps that can let the axel and cassette slide off. Anyone know if Onyx has resolved these issues in more recent releases?

Hub issues are a big headache because replacing a hub (even one under warranty) requires a wheel rebuild. A hub as expensive as the Vesper should perform flawlessly.


----------



## vclimber (Jun 21, 2018)

I just received mounted my Vespers. Absolutely no issues with the rear hub coming apart, installing the cassette was easy. Went for a quick 4mi moderate climb this morning before work and no slippage but the climb was moderate. Impressed with the engagement and the silence. I do get what posters are saying about the soft engagement feeling. I like it. 

I’ll report back after I put some mileage on the hub. I’m 220 and ride up at Tahoe. If it’s going to slip... I will probably be that guy. :lol:


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

vclimber said:


> I just received mounted my Vespers. Absolutely no issues with the rear hub coming apart, installing the cassette was easy. Went for a quick 4mi moderate climb this morning before work and no slippage but the climb was moderate. Impressed with the engagement and the silence. I do get what posters are saying about the soft engagement feeling. I like it.
> 
> I'll report back after I put some mileage on the hub. I'm 220 and ride up at Tahoe. If it's going to slip... I will probably be that guy. :lol:


I'll definitely be waiting for you to report back! I'm only 155 but I don't want any chance of slipping issues when I eventually buy one of the Onyx hubs.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

bayposter said:


> Hub issues are a big headache because replacing a hub (even one under warranty) requires a wheel rebuild. A hub as expensive as the Vesper should perform flawlessly.


It would not _necessarily_ require a full wheel rebuild. You might be able to replace the internals, like with mine when the sprags fell out. Any mechanical device can fail, regardless of price, but I'll admit it was a bit disheartening to have this happen to me. NOBL/Onyx did cover this problem under their five year warranty so in the end I'm pleased. They sent replacement internals and I was able to keep the hub/spokes/rim intact. I would have no qualms about buying another Onyx hub although I think I would go for the more stout original version instead of the Vesper next time.


----------



## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

I just had a Hydra hub seize at 1.25 years of riding, and it was serviced within the last 200mi. Looking at the Vespers but I'm 230 and torquey...going to have to keep an eye on this.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

At 230# and torquey I’d recommend going with the original Onyx hub.


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Been riding a new wheel build on my road bike with Vespers. Wow my tires are loud! Great hubs.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

A batch of Vesper hubs just landed.  If you're interested in getting some in the EU area, shoot me a message at [email protected]


----------



## shaquille_o'wheel (Sep 27, 2015)

CharacterZero said:


> I just had a Hydra hub seize at 1.25 years of riding, and it was serviced within the last 200mi. Looking at the Vespers but I'm 230 and torquey...going to have to keep an eye on this.


Shoot me an email at [email protected]

I'll get you fixed up. Was it serviced by us or a shop? Have you inspected it since it locked up?


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Nat said:


> It would not _necessarily_ require a full wheel rebuild. You might be able to replace the internals, like with mine when the sprags fell out. Any mechanical device can fail, regardless of price, but I'll admit it was a bit disheartening to have this happen to me. NOBL/Onyx did cover this problem under their five year warranty so in the end I'm pleased. They sent replacement internals and I was able to keep the hub/spokes/rim intact. I would have no qualms about buying another Onyx hub although I think I would go for the more stout original version instead of the Vesper next time.
> 
> View attachment 1361565
> 
> ...


Did the retainer for the sprags fail? I pulled the sprag bearings out of my classic and they were both fully contained. There was no way for the sprags to come out like that. I'm assuming onyx sources sprag bearings? They don't make them right?

Another thing the classic has going for it over the vesper is you dont' have to remove the bearing you see to replace the sprag bearings. On the classic it's as simple as removing a retaining clip, and sliding each self contained sprag bearing out. Very easy job someone that's never removed bearings before could do.


----------



## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Just built up a set of wheels with White ind boost hubs. 

My Onyx Vesper hubs are well broken in. Spinning the freehubs, it appears that the White have half the freehub drag.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Have they solved this for you yet? Curious what steps they've taken, and what difference each step has made.


Yessir, they did. Onyx has fantastic customer service and will get you sorted one way or another! The resolution was neither a fix nor a modification to the Vesper variants, but rather a replacement with the Classic version.

Whilst waiting for resolution, I moved on to a different brand of hub, and made somebody else the proud owner of two new sets of Onyx Classic hubs....the new hubs i opted for aren't silent on the stand, but are almost indistinguishable from tire noise on the trail, and should have less probability of a drive mechanism failure.


----------



## bayposter (Aug 19, 2020)

tdc_worm said:


> Yessir, they did. Onyx has fantastic customer service and will get you sorted one way or another! The resolution was neither a fix nor a modification to the Vesper variants, but rather a replacement with the Classic version.


I'm glad to hear Onyx customer service helped you out. On the other hand, it's disappointing to hear that Onyx never got the Vesper hub to work properly for you. I was considering the Vespers for a new set of wheels, but because of the issues reported here, I've decided on I9 Hydras instead.


----------



## kestrel242 (Jul 11, 2008)

I went from SRAM X0 hubs to P321 quiet pawls this summer because I absolutely had it with the ridiculous noise levels. The P321 was great for a couple of rides but it didn't take long for the noise level to build up. 

I just finished rebuilding the wheel with a Vesper and Shimano HG+. The silence is perfect. Just what I was looking for. The worst downside is that the scraping sound of disc brakes dragging on 4-piston calipers is much more noticeable when I'm coasting.

The soft engagement is no big deal. From hearing people talk about it I was expecting some kind of elastic sensation. It simply doesn't "whack" into engagement abruptly the way mechanical pawls can, that's all.

Full disclosure: I am getting some kind of weird "clunk" from the drivetrain when I backpedal. My instinct is saying it feels like freewheel drag, but it could be a chainline issue or perhaps I just don't have the RD quite dialed in yet. Too early to say if the hub has anything to do with it.

Overall, I could easily imagine this spoiling me completely for other hubs.


----------



## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

shaquille_o'wheel said:


> Shoot me an email at [email protected]
> 
> I'll get you fixed up. Was it serviced by us or a shop? Have you inspected it since it locked up?


Guys, I wanted to take a minute and update this thread. 
Ricky reached out to me directly here after reading my post - he got me all straightened out lickity split. 3 week turn around and a BNIB wheel showed up at my doorstep. 
IME, nothing is bombproof and it is all in how it is handled, and Industry Nine did right by me - they even swapped to a Microspline at my request as GX cassettes are really hard to come by right now.

Now, I'll report I did grab an ONYX Classic laced to a Flow to run in the meantime b/c dat weather doooohhh...Nice hub, very interesting riding with almost ZERO hub noise. Love that aspect of it.

I have had several instances climbing ledgey features and felt it effectively slip...not enough to cost me wellbeing and a few of the features I still made...but this is not desirable. It might be acceptable but I do have an email in to Onyx about it. I'll update later.


----------



## EricTV (Jun 11, 2020)

*Onyx Vesper not spinning freely*

Just bought a new set of wheels with Vespers. I have only ridden them for about 30 minutes around the neighborhood but I'm having 2 issues. When I pedal hard to wheelie or to bunny hop I hear and feel a click/pop and when I have it on the bike stand trying to figure out the issue I thought I noticed that with the crank in certain position the brake was rubbing but I was wrong. It sounded like the brake was rubbing but it was not the brake. I even took the whole caliper off to test it and it is not the brake rubbing. The hub in certain position (like 3 oclock and 9 oclock) the hub does not spin freely. It sounds like something is dragging inside the hub. It is bad enough that it will cause the pedal to kick back. The weird thing is that in other positions the hub spins perfectly and silent. Could the bearings not be installed properly? Anyone had this issue or know how to adjust this?

Thanks in advance.

EV


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

EDIT: For anyone finding this thread, the bearing issue I raise below has been resolved.

This thread is the first hit when you search to find info about the Vespers, so I figured it's a good place to contribute. My story concerns a 2019 Turbo Levo. I am definitely having buyer's remorse with my Onyx Vespers.

I ordered wheels from Light Bicycle. Very happy with the wheelset and customer service, but not so happy with the hubs. I have the Vespers with Boost spacing and Centerlock rotors.

The first problem was caused by the updated non-drive side endcap on the rear (you can see it post 285). I was expecting a standard 19mm endcap, which I need. This new cap is a running change, but it's not mentioned on Onyx's website, nor LB's. LB was kind enough to send me the "old" standard endcaps. Not the right color, but better than nothing.

According to Onyx this new endcap is threaded so that you can remove "play" as things "wear in". If the hub is properly designed there should be no play and there is nothing to wear in. This does not inspire confidence in the design...

Furthermore the new endcap doesn't cover the bearing. Onyx says this doesn't matter because the lockring covers it anyway. This of course assumes you are using Centerlock rotors in the first place, and that you are using the lockring with the teeth on the inside and not the external one...

After 100-200 miles of riding I would not say the rear wheel spins especially freely. There is noticeable drag. I also noticed the cassette was spinning very poorly. Checking the hub, the freehub bearings were quite rough, but the worst of them was the bearing inside the part you can see in this photo (sorry I don't know the name of the part):










This one was so notchy it wouldn't spin by hand without a good amount of force.

I reported this to LB who said maybe the bearings got contaminated. Upon further inspection this would not surprise me at all as the Vesper has no seal whatsoever between the freehub and hub body. There is some mechanical interference by way of a machined lip, but there's nothing at all to keep liquid out.

LB was able to get Onyx to send 3 new the bearings, which is good, but they're the exact same bearings (Enduro ABEC-5) so I'm not confident the won't fail in the same way.

I have also noticed that my rear brake rotor rubs when cornering, more so than previous wheels. I'm not sure the Vesper axle design is up to the task 

Interestingly I've never had any problems with slipping. And keep in mind this is an ebike. I'm about 185lbs but I wouldn't say I'm super strong so it's mainly ebike power 

I still like the Vesper for its silence. And given that I'm on an ebike, I'm not super worried about the extra drag. But bearings failing in ~150 miles is definitely not acceptable. Time will tell if the new ones are better.

The front hub has been flawless at least! One thing to note about the front hub: LB doesn't list boost + centerlock + torque cap as an option. However Onyx *does *offer this combo, you just need to ask LB to order it.


----------



## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

I was decided on a Vesper, but this thread causes constant indecision. Given the thread understandably comprises a relatively small sample size of individual experiences both good and bad, the through line on the Vesper is a little hard to figure out.

I guess as a sub-180 pound weekend warrior of moderate power/torque, I'm landing on these conclusions:

It isn't entirely clear to me whether Onyx made some adjustments to the Vesper in response to slippage issues in the first production runs. But even if they have not made adjustments, I'm unlikely to have a problem. As long as I recognize that there is a chance of the slippage issue, requiring reliance on Onyx's seemingly well-regarded customer service, the slippage issue isn't a reason not to buy the hub if I otherwise want to give it a go.

[I have the same uncertainty as to any contamination problems that may result from the sealing issues identified most recently by Bigtuna above.]

Any thoughts? Any wheel-builders or shop-hands here who have sent out or seen enough wheelsets with the Vespers to say whether slippage/contamination/dissatisfaction rates are of particular concern?

This probably comes down to one's risk tolerance. Totally get someone saying, why would you spend $460 on a rear hub with these sorts of potential issues. Maybe that's where I land, but I'm thinking (hoping?) even with some heightened risk, the issue isn't prevalent enough especially for riders of my weight to be disqualifying.

Thanks


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

As I get older, I'm less tolerant of being an unintentional beta tester for products. I do appreciate good customer service. But I like it even better when I don't need it it all. In retrospect I probably should have just played it safe and bought DT Swiss hubs. I'm too old for this crap


----------



## EricTV (Jun 11, 2020)

EricTV said:


> Just bought a new set of wheels with Vespers. I have only ridden them for about 30 minutes around the neighborhood but I'm having 2 issues. When I pedal hard to wheelie or to bunny hop I hear and feel a click/pop and when I have it on the bike stand trying to figure out the issue I thought I noticed that with the crank in certain position the brake was rubbing but I was wrong. It sounded like the brake was rubbing but it was not the brake. I even took the whole caliper off to test it and it is not the brake rubbing. The hub in certain position (like 3 oclock and 9 oclock) the hub does not spin freely. It sounds like something is dragging inside the hub. It is bad enough that it will cause the pedal to kick back. The weird thing is that in other positions the hub spins perfectly and silent. Could the bearings not be installed properly? Anyone had this issue or know how to adjust this?
> 
> Update: the issue was that the drive side end cap was not installed completely flush. Once I figured that out the wheel works perfect. I had to be extra careful when installing rear wheel to not hit the endcap against the frame or it would move the endcap and would give me the same trouble again. A bit of a pain to have to remember but now I'm used to it.


----------



## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

genny1 said:


> I was decided on a Vesper, but this thread causes constant indecision. Given the thread understandably comprises a relatively small sample size of individual experiences both good and bad, the through line on the Vesper is a little hard to figure out.
> 
> I guess as a sub-180 pound weekend warrior of moderate power/torque, I'm landing on these conclusions:
> 
> ...


My inner circle of riding buddies and I have a total of 5 Vesper wheelsets, most of which I built, with absolutely zero issues whatsoever. One set has at least 5000 miles on it and is still rolling smoothly, and engaging as it should. I in particular have stress tested mine heavily, doing high torque trials moves like pedal kicks, and have never felt any slippage at all. There is a slight elastic wind-up feel to the engagement, but to be honest I think that's a feature rather than a bug for general use.

My single complaint is the ease with which the freehub falls off with a big ass cassette mounted to it, but the same complaint holds true for many other models of hub. Just be aware of that pitfall, and you should be golden.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I've built dozens and dozens of both Classic and Vesper.

I just typed that ^, and then sat here for ~2 minutes trying to think of problems I've seen with each.

Couldn't think of any.

My memory isn't awesome -- it's possible that I'm forgetting some instance or occurrence.

But nothing is coming to mind.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Bigtuna00 said:


> As I get older, I'm less tolerant of being an unintentional beta tester for products. I do appreciate good customer service. But I like it even better when I don't need it it all. In retrospect I probably should have just played it safe and bought DT Swiss hubs. I'm too old for this crap


At 185# and an ebike I would've thought the Classic Onyx would have been a better choice than the Vesper. Was that model on your list?


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

EDIT: removing accidental double-post.


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

Bigtuna00 said:


> This thread is the first hit when you search to find info about the Vespers, so I figured it's a good place to contribute. My story concerns a 2019 Turbo Levo. I am definitely having buyer's remorse with my Onyx Vespers.
> 
> I ordered wheels from Light Bicycle. Very happy with the wheelset and customer service, but not so happy with the hubs. I have the Vespers with Boost spacing and Centerlock rotors.
> 
> ...


Onyx specifically told me not to use the Vesper hubs on my Levo, to use the classic hubs with the stainless driver. Did you specify to Light Bicycle they were going onto an ebike?


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

springs said:


> Onyx specifically told me not to use the Vesper hubs on my Levo, to use the classic hubs with the stainless driver. Did you specify to Light Bicycle they were going onto an ebike?


Thanks for the info. Yes I did.

Given my experience running the Roval Control SL's (EDIT: I sent a reply earlier explaining this but it's not showing up, sorry for the confusion; I suspect as a new user some of my posts are being held for moderation?), as well as the other issue raised in this thread for non-ebike users, it's pretty clear Onyx just has a bad product. Bummer.


----------



## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Thanks so much for the replies. Mega and Mike, that is really reassuring and helpful about the Vespers, and helps a lot in getting me get back to feeling positive about buying one. Bigtuna, I understand the frustration, makes sense. Reading about yours and others less positive experiences have caused me to dig into it and understand the pros and cons, and that is really helpful too.

Thanks!


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

Nat said:


> At 185# and an ebike I would've thought the Classic Onyx would have been a better choice than the Vesper. Was that model on your list?


I eliminated the Onyx Classic because I didn't really want to add a pound to my bike. To put this in perspective, I ran a set of non-Boost Roval Control SL wheels on this bike for a year with zero issues. That's a 1500g wheelset with narrower spacing. I don't need "heavy duty" wheels.

I also dislike the implication that parts need to be ebike-specific. A strong fit rider can put down the same power as my Levo. At 185 lbs I'm no where near the high end for rider weight. My 2016 Stumpjumper was 30 lbs. My Levo is 48 lbs. Parts should not be failing because the bike is 18lbs heavier.

Ebikes don't come with ebike-specific parts. My 2019 Turbo Levo Expert came with the same parts as any other comparably spec'd trail non-ebike with the exception of the frame, BB, and cranks (which are of course part of the motor assembly).

I don't mean to rant, it's just a frustrating situation...


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

genny1 said:


> Thanks so much for the replies. Mega and Mike, that is really reassuring and helpful about the Vespers, and helps a lot in getting me get back to feeling positive about buying one. Bigtuna, I understand the frustration, makes sense. Reading about yours and others less positive experiences have caused me to dig into it and understand the pros and cons, and that is really helpful too.
> 
> Thanks!


It seems like there was zero talk of issues until the vesper came out. Some are having issues, others aren't. It's about as clear as mud from my vantage. If I were you I would go with the classic because you get a simpler design with a double row clutch that has few to no reported issues. Onyx is playing the gram game because the MTB market is dominated by weight weenies. Sprag clutch hubs are going to be heavy by design. I would rather accept the weight penalty than make compromises in the form of potential slipping, and other reported issues. There really isn't a big difference between the vesper and classic. The vesper just looks more palatable compared to lighter hubs. Anyone that's willing to accept the penalty of the vesper over a light hub, can come to terms with the extra 100g of the classic. After all, the classic is their intended design for a sprag bearing hub. The vesper is their attempt to appease the weight weenie market that's scared away by numbers on paper. I have to admit I was one of them. So glad I got over that. We are way too fussy over grams.


----------



## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

Bigtuna00 said:


> I also dislike the implication that parts need to be ebike-specific. A strong fit rider can put down the same power as my Levo. At 185 lbs I'm no where near the high end for rider weight. My 2016 Stumpjumper was 30 lbs. My Levo is 48 lbs. Parts should not be failing because the bike is 18lbs heavier.
> 
> Ebikes don't come with ebike-specific parts. My 2019 Turbo Levo Expert came with the same parts as any other comparably spec'd trail non-ebike with the exception of the frame, BB, and cranks (which are of course part of the motor assembly).


The bike industry does not necessarily share your point of view. 
Most e-bikes are being spec'd with heavier duty parts, mostly rear axles and cassette carriers.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

There are now parts that were designed specifically with e-bikes in mind, like the RS Zeb fork, the TRP E-mtb brake, and Schwalbe Eddy Current tires. I'd say that's a good thing.


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

The Squeaky Wheel said:


> The bike industry does not necessarily share your point of view.
> Most e-bikes are being spec'd with heavier duty parts, mostly rear axles and cassette carriers.


Trail bikes come with heavier duty parts than cross-country bikes. Enduro bikes come with heavier duty parts than trail bikes. The Levo is a trail bike, and comes with trail bike parts. The point I'm trying to make it it's not some magical new category of parts. The normal parts that work on a normal bike also work on an ebike.

On my Levo the axle is not different. I can't speak for the wheels because I never had the stock ones, as I said I rode a Control SL wheelset (with no issues).

As a counterpoint to this ebike-specific idea, my stock 2019 Levo came with a KMC chain that is supposed to be ebike "ready", but wears out faster than a SRAM chain. Nowadays Specialized doesn't bother, they just spec normal SRAM chains and normal Eagle parts on the Levos.

EDIT: I don't want to derail the thread, sorry for the tangent. I'll try to stick to just reviewing the hubs :thumbsup:


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

Quick update: did 3 rides on replacement bearings and they are already getting notchy. Light Bicycle asked me to contact Onyx directly, which I did a week ago. Have heard nothing back.

Given that they don't "recommend" the Vesper for ebikes, I've decided to move on. Will replace the rear wheel with something reliable. Hopefully if Onyx resolves the Vesper issues I can at least sell the hub...


----------



## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Bigtuna00 said:


> Quick update: did 3 rides on replacement bearings and they are already getting notchy. Light Bicycle asked me to contact Onyx directly, which I did a week ago. Have heard nothing back.
> 
> Given that they don't "recommend" the Vesper for ebikes, I've decided to move on. Will replace the rear wheel with something reliable. Hopefully if Onyx resolves the Vesper issues I can at least sell the hub...


Thanks much for taking the time to provide an update. That is a really frustrating experience. Hope you quickly find a reliable replacement and are able to resell the Vesper. It stinks to have to switch out the hub.

Thanks again for sharing the helpful info, much appreciated.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bigtuna00 said:


> Trail bikes come with heavier duty parts than cross-country bikes. Enduro bikes come with heavier duty parts than trail bikes. The Levo is a trail bike, and comes with trail bike parts. The point I'm trying to make it it's not some magical new category of parts. The normal parts that work on a normal bike also work on an ebike.
> 
> On my Levo the axle is not different. I can't speak for the wheels because I never had the stock ones, as I said I rode a Control SL wheelset (with no issues).
> 
> ...


E- bikes put out much higher average power than the average well ridden trail bike, all transferred through the drivetrain. 
This is going to necessitate sturdier components as generally bike components are optimized for weight vs strength vs cost for their intended application. 
A bicycle chain isn't like say a motorcycle chain where the same unit is utilized on 20 hp kid's bikes, all of the way to 200 hp sportbike.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> E- bikes put out much higher average power than the average well ridden trail bike, all transferred through the drivetrain.
> This is going to necessitate sturdier components as generally bike components are optimized for weight vs strength vs cost for their intended application.
> A bicycle chain isn't like say a motorcycle chain where the same unit is utilized on 20 hp kid's bikes, all of the way to 200 hp sportbike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Yep, ebikes are not mountain bikes. They put more torque into the drive train than lance Armstrong on peds could dream of. Even my anemic chicken legs have snapped chains. Why any ebike is coming with a vesper and mountain bike chain is beyond me.


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

slimat99 said:


> Yep, ebikes are not mountain bikes. They put more torque into the drive train than lance Armstrong on peds could dream of. Even my anemic chicken legs have snapped chains. Why any ebike is coming with a vesper and mountain bike chain is beyond me.


From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17562069/



> maximum torque (266 +/- 20; 266 +/- 13 Nm; P = 0.840)


(for comparison, the Brose 2.1 motor in the Levo has a maximum torque of 70 Nm)


----------



## Simpancz (Dec 14, 2020)

Hey guys, I recently laced up my rear wheel with the onyx vesper and I am not too happy with the flex when I am climbing. It is like pedalling into some kind of spring. Could any of the vesper owners confirm, that this is a regular amount of flex, please?


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Simpancz said:


> Hey guys, I recently laced up my rear wheel with the onyx vesper and I am not too happy with the flex when I am climbing. It is like pedalling into some kind of spring. Could any of the vesper owners confirm, that this is a regular amount of flex, please?


That's a crazy amount of play in what appears to be the sprags struggling to lock into place. I have a classic but there's no way that's normal for the vesper. Around .5 degrees for the sprags to lock into place would be normal. It looks like 7 degrees in your vid. Contact onyx.


----------



## dduk (Jun 4, 2007)

That's about the same account of flex I experienced in my Vespers, although I was only able to achieve that in the larger cogs. Is it even worse for you in your largest cog?


----------



## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Simpancz said:


> Hey guys, I recently laced up my rear wheel with the onyx vesper and I am not too happy with the flex when I am climbing. It is like pedalling into some kind of spring. Could any of the vesper owners confirm, that this is a regular amount of flex, please?


Box components has a video comparing their hub to the Onyx. 3:28 shows the difference : 



. I have the predecessor made by Stealth and there is ZERO wind up. Based on the video the Onyx appears to have quite a bit of rotation before the drivetrain moves. Oynx might have instant engagement but not have full power transfer.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

slimat99 said:


> That's a crazy amount of play in what appears to be the sprags struggling to lock into place. I have a classic but there's no way that's normal for the vesper. Around .5 degrees for the sprags to lock into place would be normal. It looks like 7 degrees in your vid. Contact onyx.


There is no struggle for the sprags to lock in. They lock in with zero perceptible motion. What you are seeing is essentially what was described, "like pedalling into some kind of spring." The sprags are little cam levers, and the more torque they are under, the further they stand up against the load. There is some flex in the system, and this is what accounts for their unique soft feel and the spring effect. A video doesn't tell you enough, because you can't tell how much load is being put into them against the brakes. They will all move like that, Vesper or Classic. How much depends on how hard you stomp it. And the force is returned as soon as the peak torque subsides a bit with no perceptible loss, like a spring.

It gets to be a problem if it is excessive, or if the rider simply prefers the instant grab engagement style of most other hubs. I prefer the feel of Onyx engagement, but I have never found it to be excessive, and I only have Classic hubs which have a wider sprag clutch. The Vespers will have more of this flex, and for a heavier rider, or one sensitive to the effect, they may be the wrong hub. It's also possible if the tolerances were off it could make it more of an issue. Onyx hubs and sprag clutches rely on particularly tight tolerances to function.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

keen said:


> I have the predecessor made by Stealth and there is ZERO wind up. Based on the video the Onyx appears to have quite a bit of rotation before the drivetrain moves. Oynx might have instant engagement but not have full power transfer.


There is no problem with power transfer, if anything it smooths it out. There is a reason Onyx is so successful in BMX racing.


----------



## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Velodonata said:


> There is no problem with power transfer, if anything it smooths it out. There is a reason Onyx is so successful in BMX racing.


Sure it transfers 100% power after X amount of rotation as the sprags fully engage. Some riders may welcome the smoothening effect while some find it annoying. I have ridden a lot of hub designs and I currently am all in w/ the roller bearing drive - instant power transfer but doesn't have that pawl style clunk.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

dduk said:


> That's about the same account of flex I experienced in my Vespers, although I was only able to achieve that in the larger cogs. Is it even worse for you in your largest cog?





Velodonata said:


> There is no struggle for the sprags to lock in. They lock in with zero perceptible motion. What you are seeing is essentially what was described, "like pedalling into some kind of spring." The sprags are little cam levers, and the more torque they are under, the further they stand up against the load. There is some flex in the system, and this is what accounts for their unique soft feel and the spring effect. A video doesn't tell you enough, because you can't tell how much load is being put into them against the brakes. They will all move like that, Vesper or Classic. How much depends on how hard you stomp it. And the force is returned as soon as the peak torque subsides a bit with no perceptible loss, like a spring.
> 
> It gets to be a problem if it is excessive, or if the rider simply prefers the instant grab engagement style of most other hubs. I prefer the feel of Onyx engagement, but I have never found it to be excessive, and I only have Classic hubs which have a wider sprag clutch. The Vespers will have more of this flex, and for a heavier rider, or one sensitive to the effect, they may be the wrong hub. It's also possible if the tolerances were off it could make it more of an issue. Onyx hubs and sprag clutches rely on particularly tight tolerances to function.


Sprags do not lock in with zero perceptible motion. You can feel with light pressure how the sprags stand up and tock into place. It takes roughly .5 degrees for the sprags to do this. The sprags are always in contact with the freehub body, but they have to pinch into place by standing up and wedging themselves between the freehub and hub sheel which creats the unique soft engagement onyx is known for. This action is the only amount of "play" you shoudl feel regardless of how hard you pedal. There can't be play once the sprags stand up and lock into place just like there can't be play once pawls are engaged. They only way to get play once sprags are locked in is slipping. This is why I said it looks like the sprags are struggling to lock in place. You would not be able to replicate what you see in this video with my classic.


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

A little background to catch up:

I ordered a set of LB wheels with Onyx Vesper hubs. The bearings failed within 100 miles. Onyx sent new bearings, and those were getting bad after a few rides as well. When I ordered the wheels I asked for a straight 19mm end cap for use with my ebike setup, which LB were kind enough to send. Onyx has subsequently confirmed that this older end cap is not compatible with the current Vesper. Onyx introduced a new adjustable end cap on the Vesper that looks like this:










Apparently they have also changed the axle design, which makes the hub incompatible with the old end cap. With the old endcap too much pressure is placed on the bearings as you cinch down the axle. You _must_ use the new end cap in the Vesper. Here's a demo of each cap on my wheel:






On a related note, the new end cap made contact with my frame, so I couldn't really use it anyway. Onyx has redesigned it again (new-new-end-cap?  ) to alleviate this issue. They have offered to send me another set of bearings and the new-new-end-cap.

I'm no longer using the Vesper, because Onyx doesn't recommend it for ebikes and I don't want to deal with any further headaches. But for now at least my original issue is understood and resolved.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

slimat99 said:


> Sprags do not lock in with zero perceptible motion. You can feel with light pressure how the sprags stand up and tock into place. It takes roughly .5 degrees for the sprags to do this. The sprags are always in contact with the freehub body, but they have to pinch into place by standing up and wedging themselves between the freehub and hub sheel which creats the unique soft engagement onyx is known for. This action is the only amount of "play" you shoudl feel regardless of how hard you pedal. There can't be play once the sprags stand up and lock into place just like there can't be play once pawls are engaged. They only way to get play once sprags are locked in is slipping. This is why I said it looks like the sprags are struggling to lock in place. You would not be able to replicate what you see in this video with my classic.


When you are holding a bare hub in your hand, the engagement feels instant. To me, it is virtually imperceptible. We are splitting hairs here but I would even say well less than .5 degree. Not enough to be worth trying to measure. On the bike it is especially meaningless, there is more slop in the rest of the drivetrain.

I own two sets of Classics, one of which has been reshelled and I have friends that are also riding Onyx Classics. All of them can replicate the effect seen in that video, and it is not play and not slipping. It just takes a lot of torque against locked brakes. The first time I heard about this, a few years ago and shortly after I had started riding my first set of Classics, I didn't believe it. I walked over to my bike, grabbed a fistfull of brake and stomped on the pedal and there it was. It seemed crazy because all I felt when riding was how smooth and quiet they were and how nice the engagement was. But after thinking about it, it made sense, it only moves that much under a huge torque load and proportionally less in other riding. I don't find it noticeable in any negative way, it just makes other hubs feel harsh and shitty to me.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

keen said:


> Sure it transfers 100% power after X amount of rotation as the sprags fully engage. Some riders may welcome the smoothening effect while some find it annoying. I have ridden a lot of hub designs and I currently am all in w/ the roller bearing drive - instant power transfer but doesn't have that pawl style clunk.


That's the thing, it's a tiny X, the rotation comes after full engagement, and there is no power lost. But yeah, if you find it annoying they are not the hubs for you. Every other hub out there has that instant hard grab. I can see the roller hubs like Stealth/Box reducing the pawl clunk effect with their rapid engagement.

I feel that if sprags had come first and everybody was used to their smooth engagement from the start, the harsh grab of the typical hub would be a damn tough sell, although the significant weight advantage would still be there.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

[/QUOTE]


Velodonata said:


> When you are holding a bare hub in your hand, the engagement feels instant. To me, it is virtually imperceptible. We are splitting hairs here but I would even say well less than .5 degree. Not enough to be worth trying to measure. On the bike it is especially meaningless, there is more slop in the rest of the drivetrain.
> 
> I own two sets of Classics, one of which has been reshelled and I have friends that are also riding Onyx Classics. All of them can replicate the effect seen in that video, and it is not play and not slipping. It just takes a lot of torque against locked brakes. The first time I heard about this, a few years ago and shortly after I had started riding my first set of Classics, I didn't believe it. I walked over to my bike, grabbed a fistfull of brake and stomped on the pedal and there it was. It seemed crazy because all I felt when riding was how smooth and quiet they were and how nice the engagement was. But after thinking about it, it made sense, it only moves that much under a huge torque load and proportionally less in other riding. I don't find it noticeable in any negative way, it just makes other hubs feel harsh and shitty to me.


That just surprises me because I thought once sprags lock in place they can't move unless they slip. That's been my experience with a classic. You're saying the sprags lock in place then bend more when lots of torque is applied. All I've ever heard is sprags can slip when torque exceeds what they can handle like all one way bearings including what's used in the stealth hubs. I've never felt anything other than roughly .5 lag which you're probably right in that .5 is likely more lag than sprags take to wedge themselves tight. You're right in that there's as much or more lag in the drivetrain anyway. It feels like the chain going from slack to tight has roughly the same amount of lag.


----------



## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

slimat99 said:


> That just surprises me because I thought once sprags lock in place they can't move unless they slip. That's been my experience with a classic. You're saying the sprags lock in place then bend more when lots of torque is applied. All I've ever heard is sprags can slip when torque exceeds what they can handle like all one way bearings including what's used in the stealth hubs. I've never felt anything other than roughly .5 lag which you're probably right in that .5 is likely more lag than sprags take to wedge themselves tight. You're right in that there's as much or more lag in the drivetrain anyway. It feels like the chain going from slack to tight has roughly the same amount of lag.


Have you tried it? Put the chain on a big cog, hold the rear brakes locked, and stomp on a pedal. The whole bike will load up tight and there may be a little creak or two but the cassette moving should be obvious.

Once the sprags engage, under increased torque, they don't exactly move, and they don't bend, it's more of a slight rotation in place. There are multiple things going on, the outer ring expands, the inner ring gets shrinks and the sprags themselves get squeezed. But all to a very tiny degree. The cam geometry of the sprags is designed for them to rotate slightly and tighten their grip as this happens in response to heavy loads. If they ever slip it is a non-destructive failure mode, and it should never happen in use due to the very high loads the sprags can handle. If it does, something is wrong, either tolerances are off, something is broken or there is a lubrication issue. I have never experienced it, nor have any of the Onyx Classic riders I know. However it clearly has happened to some Vesper owners, apparently for various reasons of production problems with the new hub design and maybe the smaller sprag assembly not having as much torque handling capacity as the Classics. Some people have had significant problems with it, but then others will report zero issues under a heavy rider and hard use. Hopefully Onyx has the bugs worked out by now and these issues become very rare.

Roller clutch hubs have a different feel because the rollers are thick and round and each has a short steep ramp for engagement that they are spring loaded towards to engage rapidly and solidly. So it is firmer engagement but spread over less surface area than with sprags. It is generally considered an inferior design in the automotive and industrial worlds, but they are similar enough for bicycle hub purposes that it probably doesn't matter and riders should choose based on the feel they prefer. For me, the silence is most important and the engagement feel is a nice bonus, so I would always prefer a sprag clutch but I wouldn't rule out a roller clutch hub if there was some other reason to tip the scales. Currently there isn't.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> Have you tried it? Put the chain on a big cog, hold the rear brakes locked, and stomp on a pedal. The whole bike will load up tight and there may be a little creak or two but the cassette moving should be obvious.
> 
> Once the sprags engage, under increased torque, they don't exactly move, and they don't bend, it's more of a slight rotation in place. There are multiple things going on, the outer ring expands, the inner ring gets shrinks and the sprags themselves get squeezed. But all to a very tiny degree. The cam geometry of the sprags is designed for them to rotate slightly and tighten their grip as this happens in response to heavy loads. If they ever slip it is a non-destructive failure mode, and it should never happen in use due to the very high loads the sprags can handle. If it does, something is wrong, either tolerances are off, something is broken or there is a lubrication issue. I have never experienced it, nor have any of the Onyx Classic riders I know. However it clearly has happened to some Vesper owners, apparently for various reasons of production problems with the new hub design and maybe the smaller sprag assembly not having as much torque handling capacity as the Classics. Some people have had significant problems with it, but then others will report zero issues under a heavy rider and hard use. Hopefully Onyx has the bugs worked out by now and these issues become very rare.
> 
> Roller clutch hubs have a different feel because the rollers are thick and round and each has a short steep ramp for engagement that they are spring loaded towards to engage rapidly and solidly. So it is firmer engagement but spread over less surface area than with sprags. It is generally considered an inferior design in the automotive and industrial worlds, but they are similar enough for bicycle hub purposes that it probably doesn't matter and riders should choose based on the feel they prefer. For me, the silence is most important and the engagement feel is a nice bonus, so I would always prefer a sprag clutch but I wouldn't rule out a roller clutch hub if there was some other reason to tip the scales. Currently there isn't.


No I haven't tried it in a low gear, only tall. I can't get any movement in a tall gear but I'll believe you that it's something that happens in the right gear and the right amount of torque. Sounds like none of this is applicable to riding. If the only way you can get sprag bearings to do what's seen in the vid is to stand on the pedals with locked brakes in a low gear it's not relevant to riding. This is why I was shocked by the video. I've always felt my classic being as locked in place as any pawl hub once the sprags bite down. For all practical purposes they are, with the vesper's smaller clutch being the exception because of slipping. What's odd to me is people are getting vespers to slip when I would assume they would just load up like in the vid. It's interesting that they don't slip when loaded like in the vid, but slip under normal riding situations.


----------



## GrantR (Apr 16, 2008)

I have a set of vespers on TR37 wheels. I came from DT350's I upgraded to the 54 tooth ratchet. I find the engagement a little faster but generally just more intuitive and smoother. I was slightly concerned with pedal kickback from faster engagement but I haven't experienced it. I notice the improved engagement when having to ratchet the cranks multiple times to clear rocky sections, and pedaling out of corners. In the rare occasions I ride somewhere I don't need a bell I do appreciate the silence of the hub.


----------



## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Bigtuna00 said:


> A little background to catch up:
> 
> I ordered a set of LB wheels with Onyx Vesper hubs. The bearings failed within 100 miles. Onyx sent new bearings, and those were getting bad after a few rides as well. When I ordered the wheels I asked for a straight 19mm end cap for use with my ebike setup, which LB were kind enough to send. Onyx has subsequently confirmed that this older end cap is not compatible with the current Vesper. Onyx introduced a new adjustable end cap on the Vesper that looks like this:
> 
> ...


Are there any details anywhere for the updated axle designs?


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

twodogsfighting said:


> Are there any details anywhere for the updated axle designs?


Not that I've been able to find.

EDIT: via email Onyx said:



> Circling back to the issues you are having here, looking at the endcaps and such that you have, the old (non adjustable) endcap would not work on the hub as it would not load the bearing correctly. (axle has no shoulder for endcap to push bearing against). The adjustment endcap, bottoms out on the axle end and adjusts to contact the bearing face and remove side to side play, where as the old style pressed the bearing onto a secondary shoulder on the old axle.


----------



## gregson10 (Aug 30, 2020)

Here's my rear wheel with Onyx Vesper and the very latest side play adjuster. The non-drive side end-cap was $20 and the required new style axle was another $20. I also had to replace the left outer bearing due to excessive compression and bearing contamination. I also had to convert from the internally toothed style rotor lock ring to the externally toothed style rotor lock ring because it interferes with the stainless jam nut that is part of the side play adjuster end cap. There's no frame interference on my Trek Checkpoint with Stranglehold rear axle adjusters.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> Have you tried it? Put the chain on a big cog, hold the rear brakes locked, and stomp on a pedal. The whole bike will load up tight and there may be a little creak or two but the cassette moving should be obvious.
> 
> Once the sprags engage, under increased torque, they don't exactly move, and they don't bend, it's more of a slight rotation in place. There are multiple things going on, the outer ring expands, the inner ring gets shrinks and the sprags themselves get squeezed. But all to a very tiny degree. The cam geometry of the sprags is designed for them to rotate slightly and tighten their grip as this happens in response to heavy loads. If they ever slip it is a non-destructive failure mode, and it should never happen in use due to the very high loads the sprags can handle. If it does, something is wrong, either tolerances are off, something is broken or there is a lubrication issue. I have never experienced it, nor have any of the Onyx Classic riders I know. However it clearly has happened to some Vesper owners, apparently for various reasons of production problems with the new hub design and maybe the smaller sprag assembly not having as much torque handling capacity as the Classics. Some people have had significant problems with it, but then others will report zero issues under a heavy rider and hard use. Hopefully Onyx has the bugs worked out by now and these issues become very rare.
> 
> Roller clutch hubs have a different feel because the rollers are thick and round and each has a short steep ramp for engagement that they are spring loaded towards to engage rapidly and solidly. So it is firmer engagement but spread over less surface area than with sprags. It is generally considered an inferior design in the automotive and industrial worlds, but they are similar enough for bicycle hub purposes that it probably doesn't matter and riders should choose based on the feel they prefer. For me, the silence is most important and the engagement feel is a nice bonus, so I would always prefer a sprag clutch but I wouldn't rule out a roller clutch hub if there was some other reason to tip the scales. Currently there isn't.


So I tired it in a low gear and you're right. I can't believe how much movement you can produce with brakes locked and a low gear. I shouldn't have commented without having tried this. It just looked so crazy in the vid I assumed something was off. Funny that I've been on a classic since 2016 and never noticed how you can load it up like that. Clearly it's not something that is relevant to how I ride, or just real world riding period. As hard as I can mash a low gear out of the saddle on steep gradients, I can't get it to load anymore than the normal soft engagement with the slight spring you forward feel. With brakes locked in 42t I can load the sprags a surprising amount. I can only imagine doing this with a dinner plate 12 speed cassette.


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

Looking at purchasing these hubs. Concerned about the "slippage" under high torque though. Can anyone shed light on whether this has been resolved on the current products?


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

mike0012 said:


> Looking at purchasing these hubs. Concerned about the "slippage" under high torque though. Can anyone shed light on whether this has been resolved on the current products?


No idea.

I just purchased an onyx classic rear for the same reason (troubling reports of the vesper). In the end, the classic isn't "that" much heavier, if you go with one of the alloy driver options.

And you can match it with a vesper front hub for additional weight savings.


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

Just spoke with onyx and they attributed the slipage to an early contaminated batch of sprags. They are confident that this has been resolved at this point. Also noted that they can be fixed with a light sanding to fix the surface.


----------



## Simpancz (Dec 14, 2020)

slimat99 said:


> That's a crazy amount of play in what appears to be the sprags struggling to lock into place. I have a classic but there's no way that's normal for the vesper. Around .5 degrees for the sprags to lock into place would be normal. It looks like 7 degrees in your vid. Contact onyx.


Sorry for the late reply. I did contact onyx. I Sent them the same video and they answered there is no slippage and this amount of flex is okay.. I can feel the flex on the two lowest gears (50t biggest cog). I guess I am the one who is more sensitive for this + we got pretty steep uphill trails here in BC, North Vancouver. I wish onyx had some note about this feature in their listings, but it is not good for marketing I guess. However, love the silence, but I will not buy it again.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Simpancz said:


> Sorry for the late reply. I did contact onyx. I Sent them the same video and they answered there is no slippage and this amount of flex is okay.. I can feel the flex on the two lowest gears (50t biggest cog). I guess I am the one who is more sensitive for this + we got pretty steep uphill trails here in BC, North Vancouver. I wish onyx had some note about this feature in their listings, but it is not good for marketing I guess. However, love the silence, but I will not buy it again.


If I felt that much loading of the sprags when riding, not just with brakes locked, I wouldn't like it either. With 42t and double row clutch it doesn't' matter the gear or the gradient, I do not get more loading of the sprags than the soft engagement feel which I like. The used market is hot these days. You could sell it for a good price pretty easily I would think.


----------



## Bermbanger3 (Jan 24, 2021)

gregson10 said:


> Here's my rear wheel with Onyx Vesper and the very latest side play adjuster. The non-drive side end-cap was $20 and the required new style axle was another $20. I also had to replace the left outer bearing due to excessive compression and bearing contamination. I also had to convert from the internally toothed style rotor lock ring to the externally toothed style rotor lock ring because it interferes with the stainless jam nut that is part of the side play adjuster end cap. There's no frame interference on my Trek Checkpoint with Stranglehold rear axle adjusters.
> 
> View attachment 1908812


Just got my new vesper and it came with this end cap rather than the collar/pre load adjust on my older Vesper. Just can't figure out how to adjust this or remove the end caps and there's nothing online. Tried calling onyx today and no one ever picked up. You have any idea?

new vesper









old


----------



## Bigtuna00 (Nov 9, 2020)

Bermbanger3 said:


> Just got my new vesper and it came with this end cap rather than the collar/pre load adjust on my older Vesper. Just can't figure out how to adjust this or remove the end caps and there's nothing online. Tried calling onyx today and no one ever picked up. You have any idea?


Hoping you already spoke to Onyx but just in case: You back off the silver lockring, adjust the width using the two black pieces, then tighten the silver part back down.


----------



## Bermbanger3 (Jan 24, 2021)

Bigtuna00 said:


> Hoping you already spoke to Onyx but just in case: You back off the silver lockring, adjust the width using the two black pieces, then tighten the silver part back down.


Thank you! They did actually call me back about a week later and right after had issues with it.

Was experiencing a really harsh recoil type feel in the pedals over anything rough or after a big hit. Turns out where the free hub body connects was slipping before catching. Called onyx and they picked up immediately today and hopefully will be sending me a new freehub as I just sent pictures in of everything tonight. It's an XD driver..hopefully not a common theme.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

While I don't have the vesper, I do have the classic. The concern over the movement of the cassette in low gears has been a "thing" since they came out. But I have been riding them for a while and really cannot notice a difference. Honestly, I would consider it a type of drivetrain saving traction device.


----------



## Bermbanger3 (Jan 24, 2021)

jonshonda said:


> While I don't have the vesper, I do have the classic. The concern over the movement of the cassette in low gears has been a "thing" since they came out. But I have been riding them for a while and really cannot notice a difference. Honestly, I would consider it a type of drivetrain saving traction device.


Not sure if you're replying to me but the feeling I'm experiencing is not something you wouldn't notice, trust me. I have another Vesper and it has performed flawlessly. Even after swapping out the driver and freehub with the new parts Onyx sent, it's still happening. Sending the whole hub back to Onyx.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

^I maybe misunderstood the movement you were referring too. I was referring to the rotation in the cassette that can be seen when you hold the front brake and mash on the pedal.


----------



## SAIG (May 30, 2004)

Out of curiosity, can the Vesper be converted from Boost (148) to Super Boost (157)?


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Velodonata said:


> Hopefully Onyx has the bugs worked out by now and these issues become very rare.


I have mine on order and can tell if that's the case in a couple of weeks. I'm a heavy ride with some power in my legs. I'll see what I can do. ?


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Bigtuna00 said:


> Hoping you already spoke to Onyx but just in case: You back off the silver lockring, adjust the width using the two black pieces, then tighten the silver part back down.


I'm really confused now. I have, what I believe is, one of the early Vesper hubs. My non drive side spacer has no adjustment on it, it's just your typical "push on" spacer. I've just had the axle out to check and my axle has a shoulder for that non drive side bearing.

Does anyone know just how many versions there are of axle arrangements and what changed when?


----------



## Yonad (Oct 17, 2012)

Bermbanger3 said:


> Thank you! They did actually call me back about a week later and right after had issues with it.
> 
> Was experiencing a really harsh recoil type feel in the pedals over anything rough or after a big hit. Turns out where the free hub body connects was slipping before catching. Called onyx and they picked up immediately today and hopefully will be sending me a new freehub as I just sent pictures in of everything tonight. It's an XD driver..hopefully not a common theme.


Did the new freehub resolve your issue? I'm having the same harsh recoil you've described.


----------



## ifly3Dallday (Jan 15, 2016)

SAIG said:


> Out of curiosity, can the Vesper be converted from Boost (148) to Super Boost (157)?


I emailed Onyx about this and they said that they would have to swap your hub internals into the super boost shell. Qouted $130 + shipping fees.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

I think I may am experiencing the same. Whenever I land a big hit oder in a big compression, it feels as if the chain is pulling too much. Sort of a pedal kickback. Is this what you meant by "recoil". The hub is a couple of weeks old so I'm not willing to pay anything if it turns out to be faulty.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

What you guys are likely experiencing is the very real negative effect of instant engagement, pedal kickback.
These new full suspension bikes have lots of anti-squat, many of them deep into their travel. That AS, where when you pedal the chain force extends the rear suspension, works in reverse as well. When the suspension is compressed it yanks on the chain and therefore the pedals. 
I have a hub being replaced under warranty and I requested the lower engagement model as a replacement for exactly this reason. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

There is a lower engagement one?


----------



## Yonad (Oct 17, 2012)

niconj said:


> I think I may am experiencing the same. Whenever I land a big hit oder in a big compression, it feels as if the chain is pulling too much. Sort of a pedal kickback. Is this what you meant by "recoil". The hub is a couple of weeks old so I'm not willing to pay anything if it turns out to be faulty.


I fixed my issue by adjusting the preload on the hub. I had too much preload on my hub. Hope it helps!


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Yonad said:


> I fixed my issue by adjusting the preload on the hub.


Less or more preload?


----------



## Yonad (Oct 17, 2012)

niconj said:


> Less or more preload?


I had too much preload on my hub.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> What you guys are likely experiencing is the very real negative effect of instant engagement, *pedal kickback.*


From what I know about my Deviate Highlander this seems to be unlikely.


Yonad said:


> I had too much preload on my hub.


I'll try that out. It spins freely though.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

niconj said:


> There is a lower engagement one?


I didn't say the hub was an Onyx.

Also HP bikes should be immune to this effect as they shouldn't have pedal kick back at all since they don't get chain growth due to the idler.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I’m “on the fence“ about purchasing a SS Specific 142x12 Vesper with SSHG free hub. I heard no issues with the Classic hubs but do like the look and the weight savings of the Vespers. I completely understand that the preload has to be set right to remove play but not to compress the bearing, that’s nothing new and the same with any hub. My concern is the seals and precision of the interface and assembly. 
What do you guys think, just get the Classic hubs or take a chance on the Vesper?


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I'm "on the fence" about purchasing a SS Specific 142x12 Vesper with SSHG free hub. I heard no issues with the Classic hubs but do like the look and the weight savings of the Vespers. I completely understand that the preload has to be set right to remove play but not to compress the bearing, that's nothing new and the same with any hub. My concern is the seals and precision of the interface and assembly.
> What do you guys think, just get the Classic hubs or take a chance on the Vesper?


FYI, I'm 160# with gear. I ride 4-6x per week up 2-3k elevation in 2-6 miles of a stand up and climb trail. My SS bikes get worked and worked.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Onyx does not recommend Vesper to be used with SS setup. The reason being that only aluminum freewheel drivers are available which are subjected to serious cog bit. Therefore, the Classic version with its stainless steel driver is a safe bet.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jukka4130 said:


> Onyx does not recommend Vesper to be used with SS setup. The reason being that only aluminum freewheel drivers are available which are subjected to serious cog bit. Therefore, the Classic version with its stainless steel driver is a safe bet.


This is silly. It completely ignores the existence of wide-based cogs, which are everywhere -- and have been for a decade+.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

One can always try their luck. The worst thing that can happen is that freehub bodies become a consumable part. One thing to consider is that if one wants to build the strongest wheel possible, then the dedicated SS hubs are the way to go because of the wider flange distance.


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Jukka4130 said:


> One can always try their luck. The worst thing that can happen is that freehub bodies become a consumable part. One thing to consider is that if one wants to build the strongest wheel possible, then the dedicated SS hubs are the way to go because of the wider flange distance.


Totally agree about SS hubs and have heard the Classic model is probably better I have 3 SS MTN bikes and both Hadley and Hope SS/T brand of dedicated SS hubs. One thing I've noticed is that hub flange width differ by maker. The weight of the Classic brings reservations, so now I'm looking at Profile Racing, P321, and I9. The goal is not only higher engagement but also wider flanges. FYI the Hope SS/T is not near as wide as Hadley's.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Onyx Classic is up there when it comes to flange dimensions and general robustness. 

Hope is almost notorious for placing their flanges more narrow than the space constraints would allow.


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Jukka4130 said:


> Onyx Classic is up there when it comes to flange dimensions and general robustness.
> 
> Hope is almost notorious for placing their flanges more narrow than the space constraints would allow.


What about I9, they seem to be more narrow on their Classic Hydra SS hub? I'm asking them for the dimensions to compare


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mikesee said:


> This is silly. It completely ignores the existence of wide-based cogs, which are everywhere -- and have been for a decade+.


My SS Hadley's and geared White Industry hubs have Ti free hubs. I think the Hope SS/T is steel


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

hardmtnbiker said:


> What about I9, they seem to be more narrow on their Classic Hydra SS hub? I'm asking them for the dimensions to compare


FWIW I think ONYX Classic and Hadley's have the widest flange spacing.


----------



## DogThree (Sep 19, 2019)

Took off the cassette for cleaning after about 500 km of XC riding and saw the outer end of the alloy free hub body chipped. Only where there are the patent clips which are supposed to prevent exactly that. Anyone else?
Any idea why this happened?
Warranty?
Thanks















Other than that the hub is amazing.


----------



## twodogsfighting (May 10, 2015)

Ah damn it. Bought a dt micro spline hub for mine, but it looks like I need a labyrinth seal for it


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

DogThree said:


> Took off the cassette for cleaning after about 500 km of XC riding and saw the outer end of the alloy free hub body chipped. Only where there are the patent clips which are supposed to prevent exactly that. Anyone else?
> Any idea why this happened?
> Warranty?
> Thanks
> ...


Only have 230 miles on my classic but I have the same freehub body. I'll be taking the cassette off later today so I'll report back what it looks like.


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

DogThree said:


> Took off the cassette for cleaning after about 500 km of XC riding and saw the outer end of the alloy free hub body chipped. Only where there are the patent clips which are supposed to prevent exactly that. Anyone else?
> Any idea why this happened?
> Warranty?
> Thanks
> ...


So getting the stainless steel free hub seems to be a better option for SS mountain biking for sure.


----------



## Killacam614 (Jun 19, 2021)

I recently laced up some onyx vespers and have been having this issue where on hard compressions it feels like my deraileur is getting pulled and causing it to ghost shift. I checked the chain length and it’s good. Weird thing is that is shifts almost perfect on normal trials and rising but on hard compressions or big jumps it feels like it’s making my deraileur move. I put on another set of wheels to check if the issue still happened and it does not. So it’s definitely the hubs. Anyone experience this?


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Killacam614 said:


> I recently laced up some onyx vespers and have been having this issue where on hard compressions it feels like my deraileur is getting pulled and causing it to ghost shift. I checked the chain length and it's good. Weird thing is that is shifts almost perfect on normal trials and rising but on hard compressions or big jumps it feels like it's making my deraileur move. I put on another set of wheels to check if the issue still happened and it does not. So it's definitely the hubs. Anyone experience this?


Is your bearing preload loose allowing the hub to move a little left and right?


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

My freehub body looks good. There is a small amount of wear just before the narrow alignment spline. It's at the very end as well.


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Killacam614 said:


> I recently laced up some onyx vespers and have been having this issue where on hard compressions it feels like my deraileur is getting pulled and causing it to ghost shift. I checked the chain length and it's good. Weird thing is that is shifts almost perfect on normal trials and rising but on hard compressions or big jumps it feels like it's making my deraileur move. I put on another set of wheels to check if the issue still happened and it does not. So it's definitely the hubs. Anyone experience this?


I cracked the alloy free hub body causing an issue like you're describing. if you have the alloy free hub body I would check it. The steel version isn't likely to ever fail because it's one piece unlike the alloy. I would also check your axle. I've cracked one of those too. In onyx's defense, I've cracked a few axles over the years and one other free hub body. Rear hubs take a beating. I have the classic and weigh 150. While these hubs are heavy, they aren't heavy because they are reenforced in areas that make them more durable for hard riding. The axle in my classic is of similar wall thickness to lighter hubs I've owned.


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

Yonad said:


> I had too much preload on my hub.


How sensitive was the adjustment? I am also having this issue on a new bike. I loosened the preload as far as I thought possible (last few threads), but haven't been able to find the middle ground between a loose hub and eliminating the derailleur getting whipped forward. I even get this on high speed turns. Almost wrecked trying to pedal out of one with so much slack in the chain.


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

mike0012 said:


> How sensitive was the adjustment? I am also having this issue on a new bike. I loosened the preload as far as I thought possible (last few threads), but haven't been able to find the middle ground between a loose hub and eliminating the derailleur getting whipped forward. I even get this on high speed turns. Almost wrecked trying to pedal out of one with so much slack in the chain.


I'm not sure if preload will effect the freehub bearing. Could be wrong as I haven't taken the hub apart yet.

It is a very sensitive adjustment and it's prone to change depending on how tight your axle is. Having a tiny bit of play is far better than it being tight.


----------



## racefit (Aug 26, 2010)

Fajita Dave said:


> I'm not sure if preload will effect the freehub bearing. Could be wrong as I haven't taken the hub apart yet.
> 
> It is a very sensitive adjustment and it's prone to change depending on how tight your axle is. Having a tiny bit of play is far better than it being tight.


Been planning my first Onyx hub purchase for a while. I'm not interested in finicky adjustments. These comments are making me second guess.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

racefit said:


> Been planning my first Onyx hub purchase for a while. I'm not interested in finicky adjustments. These comments are making me second guess.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only time I've touched the pre loader was when I replaced an axle. Mine was set just right from the factory. When i did adjust the pre loader I found it easy to remove all play without adding any drag. It's a pretty robust part that removes play as soon as it's snugged up. I also have an OEM specialized hub with a pre loader that either has play, or drag. Pick one. Onyx is doing pre loaders right. I personally don't like them. It seems like parts can be machined to fit just right without them but in this case the pre loader does its job with no fuss. Now my race face cranks that's a different matter. They took a step backwards when they changed their design to the current pre loader. I have the OG six and new six. Why companies change things up for the worse I'll never understand.


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

My Vesper doesn't have a preload adjuster but I've not noticed any issue. What am I missing?


----------



## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

racefit said:


> Been planning my first Onyx hub purchase for a while. I'm not interested in finicky adjustments. These comments are making me second guess.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I probably made it sound a little worse than it is. If it's not set perfect from the factory just set it to their instruction video. You wont need to mess with it again unless you take the axle out. As others pointed out it's not the only hub where you need to set preload.


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

I guess the difficulty is user error on my part. I have been taking the wheel out and making micro adjustments to the hub so I have room to work. It's difficult to get in there while on the bike. I now see that it's impossible to set it without consistent axle compression.


----------



## racefit (Aug 26, 2010)

Fajita Dave said:


> I probably made it sound a little worse than it is. If it's not set perfect from the factory just set it to their instruction video. You wont need to mess with it again unless you take the axle out. As others pointed out it's not the only hub where you need to set preload.


Appreciate the clarification.

Onyx still at the top of my list as I'm not one to focus on 1 or 2 bad comments on the inter webs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

racefit said:


> Appreciate the clarification.
> 
> Onyx still at the top of my list as I'm not one to focus on 1 or 2 bad comments on the inter webs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a half dozen rides on my vespers now. The initial bearing preload setting gave me some issues, but it was just part of the learning curve. Everything else has so far been flawless and I would highly recommend them.


----------



## Travis1911 (Jan 30, 2021)

I recently got some wheels from Jenson. Onyx Vesper with Spank 350 rims. They did seem to need a break-in period. The cassette didn't seem to spin very freely on installation. After about 20 or 30 miles it loosened up and flows freely. I'm probably 200lbs with gear. I have some thick strong legs. Haven't noticed any slippage or issues other than break-in stickiness. I've maybe gone about 200 miles on them thus far. Seems like the newer models have gotten the kinks worked out of them?


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

mike0012 said:


> I have a half dozen rides on my vespers now. The initial bearing preload setting gave me some issues, but it was just part of the learning curve. Everything else has so far been flawless and I would highly recommend them.


What issues have you run into? I've got a Deviate Highlander I rode these hubs in and got a weird chain slap issue or some feeling of tension issues in the chain that have not been there with another hub. I've read somewhere that this is due to the preload being too much but haven't tried to losen it yet as it spins very freely.

Some have said that this could be an issue of pedal kickback but my bike is supposed to have none due to the idler.


----------



## n1cholasj (Nov 23, 2017)

I had this issue on a warranty hub, ended up being a mis-machined freehub


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

n1cholasj said:


> I had this issue on a warranty hub, ended up being a mis-machined freehub


Which was replaced then? How did this go?

My freehub spins freely.


----------



## n1cholasj (Nov 23, 2017)

Yup! If preload was properly adjusted, my hub would spin freely in the stand, but would engage when I would weight the bike. When riding, there would be a lot of pedal kickback/tension/loss of tension. Talked with onyx and they got me squared away.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

n1cholasj said:


> Yup! If preload was properly adjusted, my hub would spin freely in the stand, but would engage when I would weight the bike. When riding, there would be a lot of pedal kickback/tension/loss of tension. Talked with onyx and they got me squared away.


I'll have to talk to them then. I ordered it through a dealer though.


----------



## Bermbanger3 (Jan 24, 2021)

niconj said:


> What issues have you run into? I've got a Deviate Highlander I rode these hubs in and got a weird chain slap issue or some feeling of tension issues in the chain that have not been there with another hub. I've read somewhere that this is due to the preload being too much but haven't tried to losen it yet as it spins very freely.
> 
> Some have said that this could be an issue of pedal kickback but my bike is supposed to have none due to the idler.


It's not pedal kickback or the bike, it's the hub. I had this same issue when I first got my new hub and had to send it back to Onyx. They said it was due to a faulty labyrinth seal, you can see my original post a few months back. Been riding 3-4 days a week since with absolutely no issues. Pedal kickback, chain slap, derailleur issues &#8230;all these make me think it's probably the same issue mine was having


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Bermbanger3 said:


> It's not pedal kickback or the bike, it's the hub. I had this same issue when I first got my new hub and had to send it back to Onyx. They said it was due to a faulty labyrinth seal, you can see my original post a few months back. Been riding 3-4 days a week since with absolutely no issues. Pedal kickback, chain slap, derailleur issues &#8230;all these make me think it's probably the same issue mine was having


Thanks. I have contacted them directly with all the information required. The problem is that I have laced it up myself and only ordered the hub through my dealer. If I have to send it in, someone (me?) would have to lace it up again.


----------



## Bermbanger3 (Jan 24, 2021)

niconj said:


> Thanks. I have contacted them directly with all the information required. The problem is that I have laced it up myself and only ordered the hub through my dealer. If I have to send it in, someone (me?) would have to lace it up again.


I had the same issue and they paid for shipping for the whole wheel. Just took off the cassette, rotor and tire and sent it like that.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Bermbanger3 said:


> I had the same issue and they paid for shipping for the whole wheel. Just took off the cassette, rotor and tire and sent it like that.


I'll have to see. Since I bought them off a dealer in Germany, they might contact him to do this. Shipping a wheel to the US will be kinda difficult.


----------



## Antimatter (Jan 3, 2018)

I've been using the non-Vesper Onyx for a few years, really like them. Just had a buddy build a wheelset with the Vesper and really like them too. Haven't had any issues, maintenance is easy, and carries incredible speed in the flows and smooth sections. In the areas where there's a bit of uphill (on an otherwise mostly DH trail), almost every rider has to put in a few pedal cycles to clear it before the DH section starts up again. With either Onyx, I don't need to pedal at all, the speed going into that uphill is enough to get my heavy arse up.

In the really high speed sections (where you cannot pedal any more even in the highest gear), I either gain on the rider in front or I pull away from the rider following. The speed it carries tends to make me overshoot a few jumps sometimes until I learned that I have use the brakes a little differently to time the landing to transition.

The only negative I'll say is having a quiet hub bike makes me looking to hunt down any kind of noise from my bike.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

They have replied.


sorry for the troubles! 

Could you please help us find the issue by removing the freehub and inspecting the interface between freehub/hub shell. There is a series of ridges there that act as the sealing system, we believe these could be contacting causing this problem.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Update. As I didn't get any instructions on how to remove the free hub, I tried it myself watching the service video on YT.

It was very hard to even get the drive side end cap off (had to use the Newmen tool) and even harder to get the free hub off or actually the whole assembly. As shown in the Video, it was not possible to just pull off the free hub itself.



















I don't know whether I was supposed to pull off the free hub only but that wasn't possible. I sent these pictures to Onyx patiently awaiting their response.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

Eagle eyes on the side of Onyx. The Hub shell has some wear, showing that the driver contacted it there. This would probably explain the chain tug issue I've had in hard turns. The friction had the freewheel spinning slower or tugging at it, so that the chain got slack. 

I will get a new driver to counteract this issue.


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

After almost one month of waiting (thanks USPS) I got the spare parts.










As you can see, the new free hub engagement part is a bit higher:










What I don't get is how this end cap that was included is supposed to work. There's no thread.

*Edit: Never mind about that end cap. It was just screwed all the way in. *


----------



## mike0012 (Apr 27, 2006)

Rode this hub all summer laced to wa1 unions on a stumpy Evo in Colorado with big rock moves/accelerations and super steep climbs in granny. Tricky adjustment to get the preload adjusted just right so the derailleur didn't whip forward on high speed compressions. I like to think I'm a fairly powerful rider and didn't encounter any slippage. I would say that these issues have been resolved. The windup is noticeable when loading the pedals completely stopped with the brakes locked, but not something I thought once about while actually pedaling. Overall I am very happy with them.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

The windup is almost entirely dependent on the gear used. On a lighter gear, when the chain is on the big 'ol dinner plate in the back, or close to it, the windup can be noticed clearly. When the chain is closer to the middle of the cassette, it's not even noticeable in my opinion other than the soft, but instant engagement instead of binary "clank" which some pawl and spring systems tend to produce. 

Those residing in the EU have a better access to the Onyx hubs nowadays as well. https://onyxhubseurope.com


----------



## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Antimatter said:


> I've been using the non-Vesper Onyx for a few years, really like them. Just had a buddy build a wheelset with the Vesper and really like them too. Haven't had any issues, maintenance is easy, and carries incredible speed in the flows and smooth sections. In the areas where there's a bit of uphill (on an otherwise mostly DH trail), almost every rider has to put in a few pedal cycles to clear it before the DH section starts up again. With either Onyx, I don't need to pedal at all, the speed going into that uphill is enough to get my heavy arse up.
> 
> In the really high speed sections (where you cannot pedal any more even in the highest gear), I either gain on the rider in front or I pull away from the rider following. The speed it carries tends to make me overshoot a few jumps sometimes until I learned that I have use the brakes a little differently to time the landing to transition.
> 
> The only negative I'll say is having a quiet hub bike makes me looking to hunt down any kind of noise from my bike.


after reading all the issues with ONYX, honestly I would still absolutely buy them. I believe that the benefits outweigh the random chance of having a bad hub.


----------



## codytaylor (Sep 3, 2010)

niconj said:


> Eagle eyes on the side of Onyx. The Hub shell has some wear, showing that the driver contacted it there. This would probably explain the chain tug issue I've had in hard turns. The friction had the freewheel spinning slower or tugging at it, so that the chain got slack.
> 
> I will get a new driver to counteract this issue.


Niconj, how has the updated hub been working for you? Any issues now?


----------



## niconj (Mar 17, 2019)

codytaylor said:


> Niconj, how has the updated hub been working for you? Any issues now?


No issues whatsoever after the rebuild with the new parts.


----------



## SAIG (May 30, 2004)

I have the first generation Vespers with the push in end caps. Will the new end caps help with lateral movement?


----------



## onzadog (Jan 6, 2008)

Are you having issues with lateral movement? I also have an early Vesper with push on caps. It's on my hard tail which doesn't get ridden anywhere near as often as my full suspension.

I'd be really interested in any extra detail about this issue. Does it affect all the push on Vespers, or only some? Is it a design flaw for all of them or a tolerance stack up only on some of them?

Should I be looking to "upgrade" before it becomes a problem?


----------



## SAIG (May 30, 2004)

onzadog said:


> Are you having issues with lateral movement? I also have an early Vesper with push on caps. It's on my hard tail which doesn't get ridden anywhere near as often as my full suspension.
> 
> I'd be really interested in any extra detail about this issue. Does it affect all the push on Vespers, or only some? Is it a design flaw for all of them or a tolerance stack up only on some of them?
> 
> Should I be looking to "upgrade" before it becomes a problem?



I have the same questions as you. I don't know if the lateral movement I see and feel can be helped with the upgrade. I'm willing to pay for the upgrade if it helps. I have tried tightening the skewers and it did not improve.


----------



## jpjp18 (Nov 2, 2018)

SAIG said:


> I have the same questions as you. I don't know if the lateral movement I see and feel can be helped with the upgrade. I'm willing to pay for the upgrade if it helps. I have tried tightening the skewers and it did not improve.


I have the early version vesper with the push on cap too, sometimes doing corner I noticed a rotor rub on the rear. 
Not sure is it the lateral movement you spoke of.


----------



## bayposter (Aug 19, 2020)

> Like the title says -- has anyone received and ridden the new Onyx Vesper rear hub? any reviews anywhere?


It's been awhile since there was any activity on this thread. There were several problems reported with the Onyx Vespers when they came out (sprag clutch slippage, sprag clutch failures, loose end caps causing cassettes to slide off unexpected when the rear wheel was dismounted, insufficient bearing preload requiring a new preload adjuster, etc).

I like the idea of a light-weight, quiet hub, but these problems scared me away from the Vespers. I ended up getting Hydras, which I periodically grease to keep them reasonably quiet. 

But I still have an interest in the Vespers -- maybe for future builds. Have all the problems with the Vespers finally been sorted out? Or do most people still recommend the heavier Classics?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I haven't heard anything about the current run of Vespers but FWIW I was one of the early adopters and my Vesper is still going strong, smooth, and quiet. I just have to remember to not let the cassette and axle fall off onto the ground if I remove the rear wheel.


----------



## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

I just received mine two weeks ago. Even if I pull on the cassette, nothing comes off. I have no issues when riding.









Sent from my brain using my hand.


----------



## EricTV (Jun 11, 2020)

Have had mine about 19 months. Love them. The end caps can be a little finicky but once you figure that out(took me about hour). I love these hubs. Will build another wheel set soon and will be using these hubs again.


----------



## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

bayposter said:


> It's been awhile since there was any activity on this thread. There were several problems reported with the Onyx Vespers when they came out (sprag clutch slippage, sprag clutch failures, loose end caps causing cassettes to slide off unexpected when the rear wheel was dismounted, insufficient bearing preload requiring a new preload adjuster, etc).
> 
> I like the idea of a light-weight, quiet hub, but these problems scared me away from the Vespers. I ended up getting Hydras, which I periodically grease to keep them reasonably quiet.
> 
> But I still have an interest in the Vespers -- maybe for future builds. Have all the problems with the Vespers finally been sorted out? Or do most people still recommend the heavier Classics?



I have a sets of each...Hydras are good and so are both the Onyx Vespers and the Classics. From what I've read they've addressed the issues with the vespers and I rolled the dice buying a set about two months ago for my Knolly Chilcotin laced up to Derbys...I'm a heavy guy #220 and ride a lot of tech and all my style riding. I've felt no slippage on the vespers, they've been performing as expected. I have over a year on my classics... occasional softness in a high torque situation but I haven't gotten them serviced to check it out. Ive recommended them to friends...nothing is bombproof and it is all in the support. Industry Nine has taken care of any issues I've had and I'd think Onyx would do the same.


----------



## awantura (Nov 19, 2020)

had my vespers for 2 months (new preload adjuster design)...no issues so far love the hubs


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

CharacterZero said:


> I'm a heavy guy #220



I just want to start tipping the balance on this statement. In 'merika, in 2022, you're an average guy.

The 375-450# guys I regularly build wheels for are the heavy guys. 

And they love their Onyx Classics.


----------



## 325racer (Oct 31, 2011)

Sitting here debating Vespers or Kings?

On one hand like the idea of quiet and instant engagement. On the other, King is Bling, quality is unsurpassed. Noisy hub does work as pre warning system for other trail traffic and wildlife.


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Both are excellent options, but you won't be disappointed with Vespers.


----------



## jpjp18 (Nov 2, 2018)

325racer said:


> Sitting here debating Vespers or Kings?
> 
> On one hand like the idea of quiet and instant engagement. On the other, King is Bling, quality is unsurpassed. Noisy hub does work as pre warning system for other trail traffic and wildlife.


I have no problem with my vesper but if I were to choose again I might go with Chris King, mainly it's more serviceable and bearing warranty. Vesper need this kind of special grease for the clutch which as least for me is quite expensive to ship in. 

However, if purely for performance comparison I like Vesper, able to hear your tire and what you hit on trail is a big plus for me. thou Vesper have this springy feel when torquing the crank, nothing wrong with it but some might dislike it.


----------



## SAIG (May 30, 2004)

jpjp18 said:


> I have no problem with my vesper but if I were to choose again I might go with Chris King, mainly it's more serviceable and bearing warranty. Vesper need this kind of special grease for the clutch which as least for me is quite expensive to ship in.
> 
> However, if purely for performance comparison I like Vesper, able to hear your tire and what you hit on trail is a big plus for me. thou Vesper have this springy feel when torquing the crank, nothing wrong with it but some might dislike it.


I'm the same, I have had 3 CK on road bikes and mtb bikes. I can't tell the instantaneousness of either but I do like the Onyx "spongynous" which is better for old ankles. Both are super fast. I thought CK are bullet proof but every 3-4 years I take it to the shop for tunning and they always say that there is a part to replace. To be fair, I haven't taken in the Onyx for service. The silence is incredible, I usually don't need the buzzing to warn people because my wheezing will do that.

Unless my Vespers die tomorrow, I won't go back to CK. The only other hubs I would consider is if I want to do a cheap build then I'll look at Bitex or Novatec.


----------



## blz2dwl (Oct 3, 2017)

220# rider close to buying hubs for a build. Trail rider, weekend warrior. A little spooked by the early Vesper issues. Thoughts on Vesper vs. classic?


----------



## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

blz2dwl said:


> 220# rider close to buying hubs for a build. Trail rider, weekend warrior. A little spooked by the early Vesper issues. Thoughts on Vesper vs. classic?


If you're not aiming for a super lightweight wheel or a bike, why not just choose the Classic model? Most likely the Vesper will do just fine, but having some reserve rarely hurts.


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

blz2dwl said:


> 220# rider close to buying hubs for a build. Trail rider, weekend warrior. A little spooked by the early Vesper issues. Thoughts on Vesper vs. classic?


Classic every time. Bulletproof.

My Vespers were troublesome. The rear kept losing drive...they replaced the driver under warranty. It failed again, this time taking out the sprags...Onyx did warranty everything to be fair. A few weeks later my front failed. At first I thought I just broke a spoke but soon noticed the flange had actually snapped off. On closer inspection three from six rotor bolt mounts were also cracked (and a few other suspected cracks on the flange around the spokes). Again Onyx were cool with warranty. They did say this wasn't the first time this had occurred with heavier/harder riders.


----------



## TheOtherOne (Jul 27, 2020)

I've had 2 wheelsets built in the last 6 months and went with the Classics on both just because I felt more comfortable with that decision. The Vespars are probably fine but I'm a Clyde too so I figured a few extra ounces of weight at the center of the rotating mass would be negligible in my case.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

FWIW---Onyx specifically states on their website that the classic should be selected for high torque ebike, tandem, and clyde type riders. i [barely] classify as the latter [at 210lbs], and easily overpowered both of my Vesper hubs to the point that they were eventually warrantied out for classics.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

tdc_worm said:


> FWIW---Onyx specifically states on their website that the classic should be selected for high torque ebike, tandem, and clyde type riders. i [barely] classify as the latter [at 210lbs], and easily overpowered both of my Vesper hubs to the point that they were eventually warrantied out for classics.


I made this decision about 2 years ago now. Went with the classics instead of the Vespers. Honestly, when you have the alloy drivers on the Classic, its not "all that much" heavier than the Vesper. And, I'm somewhat clyde adjacent as well (~185-190lbs, close to 200 with gear at times). I also played competitive soccer all growing up, and still have remnants of "pretty strong" legs (could leg press 750lbs in high school). So I went with the classic, just in case.

And no regrets so far. No problems at all to report. Thats not to say that the Vespers would have (no idea, I haven't tried them), but thats why I went classic.


----------

