# How can my wife build some confidence?



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Hi guys. My wife is getting back into riding again, but she seems to have less confidence than she did on her first day mtb-ing when we used to ride years ago. She has platform pedals, so she can jump off whenever she wants, but she won't even try things the least bit technical or steep. I'm talking about pretty minor technical obstacles here too...like a rock drop shorter than a curb on a 2% downgrade, or loose terrein on any downhill steep enough to require brakes to keep your speed under 8 mph. Same goes for sandpits (there is a LOT of sand around here), and even on buff singletrack I know she is only putting out about 1/3 of the effort she could. I know this because she can grind up some pretty damn steep, long hills. In fact, on some hills, she'll ride straight up them, but get off and walk the same hill going back down! She even says "I have a lot more strength than confidence". She totally psyches herself out, and whenever she falls she is pretty much finished for AT LEAST the rest of the day (same goes for when we ski) if not for several rides, even if it is a pretty minor fall. She is afraid of clipless pedals too, although her first ride on those she was kicking ass until she fell. After that I found she wouldn't even clip in, and was pedaling on her arch and heels to avoid the cleat, so I just put platforms back on. Since she usually wouldn't clip in, on the occasion she did she would forget and then tip over when she needed to get out, psyching herself out again. 

She has the strength & balance (from yoga), and the bike can just about handle these obstacles on its own, but she'll never know without trying them out. How do I get her to loosen up, try these things out, and build some confidence without being pushy? 

Oh yeah- I know that part of the problem is she keeps staring at her front wheel, so obstacles sneak up on her. She keeps getting mad if I suggest she look further down the trail though.

PLEASE HELP!! I want her to enjoy riding as much as I do, and I want us to enjoy it together.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

does she WANT to do these things, or is she just going along with you because you want her to do it... that can hugely affect attitude.

Find her a group of women to ride with, or send her to a women's camp.... she' ll learn some good skills without all the emotional baggage that comes from trying to learn from or hang with your partner who is better than you.

women's bike camps

After my hubby bought me my first mountain bike, I did a real number on myself because he was so much better than me. I found that by finding others to ride with that I knew didn't mind a beginner, and having a lot of fun without the relationship stufff getting in the way, I was really able to key into having a good time and wanting to get better FOR ME, not becuase he wanted me to... same goes for skiing. Then having found my way to skill and fun without him, I've been able to join him on equal terms ( or better, heh heh) and really have a good time.

One way to build confindence is to take it slow, let her set the pace, let pick the trail and so on. Pushing won't work, and neither will "Why did you walk that, it's easy" kind of talk. And really, so what if she wants to walk something. If it doesn't bother her why let it bother you? When she's ready to ride it, she will attempt it and not before. If you want to ride harder stuff than she does, go blow out the pipes with some buddies, and then take a mellow ride with her. Lots of mileage on easy stuff isanother way to build confidence.

There are have been tons of good threads here in the WL on variations of this theme, how do I get my GF into riding etc, I suggest you look 'em up for more ideas.

Formica


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

Find her a women's group to ride with, or just other riders, WITHOUT YOU PRESENT! When I first got into mtn biking, my b/f couldn't understand why I would try obstacles, etc. and kept trying to push me. Ended up in a lot of fights! I found some guys to ride with online, who didn't mind a beginner, and that totally built up my confidence! For some reason the dynamics are different when someone other than your S/O are telling you how to go about trying a new thing.

PS-Now we ride together and it's fun, for both of us!!



formica said:


> does she WANT to do these things, or is she just going along with you because you want her to do it... that can hugely affect attitude.
> 
> Find her a group of women to ride with, or send her to a women's camp.... she' ll learn some good skills without all the emotional baggage that comes from trying to learn from or hang with your partner who is better than you.
> 
> ...


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Yeah...but today was a really easy ride. One in our group was a 12 year old girl on a bike that was far too big for her (she'd try, and usually clean, most technical sections though). I was REALLY trying to be consious about not being pushy today though. I didn't bug her about walking technical setions, although I did suggest she at least try the sand pits until she sinks rather than just stopping before them though (sort of difficult to get hurt in a 2 mph crash on sand) 

She does want to ride though (which is why this thread is different than the typical one), and even wants a better bike, which we're about to get. Her bike isn't the limiting factor though- a full rigid would've been fine today since she'd get off and walk anytime suspension would really be needed. She's never seemed interested going to ride with others without me though. I'm not sure how to get her to do that, or how to find people. The only women rider I know is a 24 hour soloist, so my wife is a bit intimindated about riding with her, and she doesn't really know her.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I helped myself when I wanted to get better, I didn't expect my hubby to do it for me.

I bought Ned Overend's book. *I* found others to ride with. It's amazing how many people you can meet when you just starting talking to them and bringing up biking. *I* went to camp... I guess what I'm trying to say is that she needs to figure it out for herself. If none of this appeals to you... to wait it out, all I can suggest is wait it out. Wait until she asks for tips on going through the sand pit. 

I can only speak from my own experience. Nothing would piss me off more than being offered unsolicited tips, suggestions and advice that were well meaning but extremely annoying. Skiing, biking, same thing. If I want advice I'll ask for it, so what it I'm struggling. Last thing a stuggling frustrated female ( in most cases) wants to hear is..." if you'd just.(fill in the blank) you wouldn't have such a hard time...." or "honey you really should do xxxx, it would make it a lot easier". Or, "I don't know why you don't blah blah blah, I know you can do it....". 

I hear that you are coming from a loving place but sometimes you just have to let it go and let her find her own way. 
my more than 2¢...

formica


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

surely you have a bike club or shop that does beginner's rides? That is a great way to meet people....

formica


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*This is her ride, not yours.*

You keep seeing this through your eyes, not hers. You keep seeing goals for her and that she is nowhere near them. Your comparison with the 12 year old and the huge bike is just like saying," geez, even this little girl can do this section," is appalling.

What is THAT about?

"If only she could (fill in the balnk here) she could really ride." You keep seeing her limitations as capricious.

What is THAT about?

I just hope to god you aren't verbalizing any of this to her. I would just tell you to go take a flying leap, or piss off, which I have done on more than one occasion. Even if you aren't saying this stuff out loud the fact that your thoughts have this shape isloates the problem. It is between your ears, not hers.

This woman WANTS to ride. Do you have any idea how uncommon that is? This is a precious thing and if you handle it wrong you will screw it up. If you really want to help then you need to rework how you conceptualize this opportunity.

Have I got your attention yet?

If she wants to ride with you and walk half the time then count your blessings. If she wants a new bike and it is Barbie Pink with streamers then, by golly, ask her if she wants a bell. If you really want to help then ride with her and give of yourself by finding out how to appreciate the riding she is doing because that is the point from which she will develop.

What's the problem? Are you bored? I am pretty sure that you have more than your fair share of riding ability. As such, you probably also underestimate the difficulty of what we all do. Clearly your wife hasn't. And this is precisely why you hear, over and over and over and over on this Board, that you need women to teach women to ride; because men don't understand. I don't buy it for a minute; men just need to look at it differently and give in a new way.

I wish you the best of luck. Really.

P.S. Sorry for the 2x4 but I wanted to get your attention.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm not the one underestimating her riding ability- she is! The first time I EVER took her riding, like 8 years ago when we were dating, she was tackling trails three times as hard as she is now, and she is in better shape now than she was then. It was sort of all downhill after clipless pedals, and neither of us has ridden much in the past 3 or 4 years (lived somewhere without much mtbing for awhile). Something has happened to her confidence in her riding ability, she is becoming increasingly, and unreasonably, fearful of hurting herself and doubtful of her own ability- ability I've ALREADY SEEN she has, and I was merely looking for suggestions on how to help her rebuild her confidence. It isn't a question of her riding ability- I'VE SEEN IT- it is there, waiting for the trigger to reawaken, and I'M confident in her abilities. I just need to find a way to help her want to challenge herself so she can remember "hey- I can do that!!" I'm sure that realization will never happen if she never tries anything.


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## trailwoman (Nov 15, 2004)

It is obvious that you love her and want to help her -- but the problem is that you probably can't -- she has to find that confidence herself -- and she may if you give her time and space. (BTW, I found learning to road bike flipped that "trigger" in me and I was no longer afraid of speed on the trail either. Don't know if it ever worked for anybody else though.)

Many women get more fearful as they age -- very natural -- but then some of us get reckless again too  

Good luck.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Ahh...she is only 29...not quite over the hill yet  Maybe I'll try some more road riding. Good idea- thanks. Those are the kind of suggestions I'm looking for.


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## RedRider (May 11, 2004)

*Be Patient*

For me, confidence came when I got a bike that fit me correctly. That's not to say that at times I don't underestimate my ability and get off and walk. Make sure her bike fits correctly and is running smoothly.

Be positive, but not too loud about it. There are times when by bf is at the bottom of a hill yelling "you got it", but is all that does is warn me that there is a nasty section there - at which point a usually slow way down and any momentum I had to clear it is now gone.

Also, since getting a "real job" I realize that an injury has a much bigger impact on my ability to work. The consequences of getting hurt are much greater now, so the benefit of clearing a nasty section is sometimes not worth the risk of taking a hit.

Just a few thoughts...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

B-Mike... I'm always amazed at your insight as to what may or may not be going on in SOME women's heads. I don't know how you got a clue, but you did.

As for @dam---


> Something has happened to her confidence in her riding ability, she is becoming increasingly, and unreasonably, fearful of hurting herself and doubtful of her own ability


Have you asked her what has changed?

~formica


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I think asking that would really piss her off, especially based on many of the "mind your own business" comments that have been thrown my way in the past day.

I'm thinking trying clipless might have been part of the root cause. She didn't tend to fall all that often until we got her a bike with clipless pedals. Clipless tipovers are no big deal- everybody does it while learning to use them. However, any sort of falling just tends to freak her out in a way that is totally not proportional with the severity of the fall, and then she rides VERY conservatively afterwords. I really was amazed how long it was taking her to get the hang of clipless, until I started looking at her feet and noticing she usually was avoiding clipping in. If you don't clip in, tiny & smooth clipless pedals against a hard cycling shoe totally suck...especially when it forces you to pedal with the wrong part of your foot. Since she would never click in, she'd suprise herself on the occasion she'd work up the courage to try it again and thus never develop the reflex to get out. It is the same situation as now- she'd never try things on the edge of her comfort zone enough to learn them. So, she is always afraid of accidently tipping over, and has become accustomed to pedaling on a tiny, slippery pedal, which leads to very conservative riding. Now, she is on these HUGE, grippy Performance "Stomp" platform pedals, but I think she is still riding like she is always going to either slide off the pedals or NOT be able to get off when she needs to.

I gotta tell you though- that first day on clipless pedals she was tearing it up for a while- bunny hopping, taking the bumps, everything.

She is really holding herself back though. For example, we went on a ride last summer on a beautiful old-growth forest path. It was about 8 miles out-and-back. The path is windy, but it is not all that technical, and there are no long descents or climbs. Traction is great, and the trail has a real roller-coaster feel. Her father came along, and he *jogged* the path with us, and he still beat her back to the car by quite some time. I did the trail one and a half times (forgot something back at the car) and still waited around quite a bit. Faster hikers were constantly catching up with and passing us on our stops.

Somebody above asked if I was bored. Well, yes, I am a bit bored. I think the point of the bicycle is that you can go faster than you could on foot. And, besides going faster than walking, one of the great thing about mountain biking is challenging yourself to see what you are able to negotiate on your bike (not getting off and walking is one of the things you need to do to go faster than walking speed). It is not so you can go foot-speed while carrying an extra 30 pounds of equipment! Going foot-speed is boring. On the trails we are on it is not even necssary. If you go the same speed as fast hiking, and don't challenge yourself on the terrein, why not just hike? If she were challenging herself and progressing, even if we were still going pretty slow, I'd be satisfied.

[With skiing, she is quite a bit faster. She skied a bit as a kid, so I think she got comfortable with the speed before she conditioned herself to be afraid of it. Still, if she takes a spill we aren't going to go fast again for quite a while]

Oh yeah- one of the main reasons we are shopping for a new bike is for a better fit. Based on her height, her current bike fits, but she prefers a shorter, more compact frame. This will probably be more confidence inspiring on the technical sections so hopefully this'll be a big help. We'll probably get a women's medium Specialized FSR. She tried it and liked the fit, even though I think it is a bit small for her at 5' 7".


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

@dam said:


> Somebody above asked if I was bored. Well, yes, I am a bit bored. I think the point of the bicycle is that you can go faster than you could on foot. And, besides going faster than walking, one of the great thing about mountain biking is challenging yourself to see what you are able to negotiate on your bike (not getting off and walking is one of the things you need to do to go faster than walking speed). It is not so you can go foot-speed while carrying an extra 30 pounds of equipment! Going foot-speed is boring. On the trails we are on it is not even necssary. If you go the same speed as fast hiking, and don't challenge yourself on the terrein, why not just hike? If she were challenging herself and progressing, even if we were still going pretty slow, I'd be satisfied.


I don't think that's necessarily true... I enjoy riding for the sake of riding, whether I'm crawling along at sub-walking pace in granny gear or zooming along at 20mph. Fear of hurting yourself is a natural thing, and each person has to do their own thing to cope with it. For some, it's confronting those fears head on (or head on trail as happened with my hubby yesterday  ), for others it's taking it slowly, and for others, it's using equipment to help you overcome the fear. Maybe you should ask her (in as non-condescending a way as possible) whether she'd like some knee and elbow pads to go with that new bike. If it's 8 years since she was used to really going for it, and you two have had 3-4 years off the bikes, that'll put a dent in her confidence too. I was sans bike for less than 3 years and I've had to relearn everything except the bit about staying upright and pushing the pedals round.

From a personal point of view, I have felt demoralised in the past when I've hurt myself doing something. I used to rollerblade quite a bit, but in the same week I managed to fall on my butt and bruise my tail bone (ouch!) and almost get run down by a car driving where it shouldn't. Since then I've really been loathe to strap those things to my feet


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

> I used to rollerblade quite a bit, but in the same week I managed to fall on my butt and bruise my tail bone (ouch!)


The EXACT same thing happened to my wife. She went with a friend when she hurt herself though- not me. I used to skate a lot when I was younger, and one day we found a good deal on some skates and she said she wanted them. We got a pair for each of us. I got her knee, elbow, and wrist protection too. She complained the pads were uncomfortable. She has probably used the skates for about 25 minutes in the 7 or 8 years since we bought them, and it has probably been 9 or 10 years since her fall- it is just another example of her totally psyching herself out. Every muscle in her body gets tense when she puts those things on (which is a good way to guarantee you'll fall when you're on skates.) She has all the right moves to be good on them from her skiing experience though.

She's really only ever had one serious fall while riding. It required a few stitches in her knee, but she falls on her knees (and has need stitches on them) all the time...hiking...running...etc. and she still does all of those things.


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## MidAtlanticXCer (May 21, 2004)

*7 step recipe for overcoming fear of clipping in*

step 1: get shin/knee guards and elbow pads
step 2: get the spd's with the big platform and put them on, setting the tension as low as possible (so low, you'll clip out accidentally a lot at first).
step 3: go someplace with semi-soft ground and pretty much nothing technical.
step 4: do clip-out drills over and over again until it is automatic. Reminder: the weight must be in the saddle, or on the opposite foot, in order to clip out. Practicing clipping out on both sides, one at a time and then try a few times to get them both out at once. Falling over is fine as it makes the point that with armor on, it doesn't hurt. 
step 5: take it someplace a bit more technical, remember that you can clip out before you get to anything hard, no point in waiting until the last second to panic. Be happy when you makes a section without unclipping. No big deal if you don't.
step 6: bunny hop madly about the parking lot upon completion of ride. This is fun, da** it!!!
step 7: repeat steps 5&6. Go back to step 4 if / when necessary.

I just wish I'd known about armor when I went thru this 11 years ago!


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Good idea. Does anybody use the shorts with the padded hips? Those seem like they'd be helpful when tipping over.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> Good idea. Does anybody use the shorts with the padded hips? Those seem like they'd be helpful when tipping over.


Most women have enough natural padding there. 

There have been some good threads on what are good pads, here not too long ago. (not the tampax thread)

~formica


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

Purely psychological aspects aside, since I gather you're looking for a new ride for her anyhow, I might suggest something somewhat slacker and more "all mountain" than the XC-leaning FSR. Take a couple of degrees off the head angle (look for something in the 69deg range), put some nice meaty tires on (2.4-ish; there's plenty around that aren't DH-heavy), and you might very well notice a huge difference in your SO's downhill prowess.

Granted, there's a bit of a mental shift before your mind figures out that a slacker HT (etc) increases confidence on the steeps, but once a couple brain cells get a grip, the whole lot follows suit rather quickly.

Also, maybe suggest some arm and knee/shin pads (shins *especially*, if she's riding flats). Armor's not just for DH! It really can increase confidence in general riding. Core Rat arm pads are the best XC-oriented I've found. They offer excellent protection (I wear them for everything except DH racing), and are almost invisible in terms of comfort and ventilation. Knees/shins are a bit stickier problem, as anything that offers good protection tends to be a toasty. There are a host of solutionsout there - with and without armor plates - that might fit the bill. Roach FR legs are great, as are the Troy Lee Designs Combat Guards. There are a number of 3x- to 5x thick neoprene guards sans plates you can find on BMX sites, such as Dan's Comp, as well.

Even switching from lycra to baggies can have a positive mental impact. Knowing there's a little cordura or some other more robust material between your legs and ground is a big boost.

Padded shorts are the bomb for tailbone landings, and (sometimes) preventing getting speared in the quad with a handlebar, brake lever, top-tube, or stem. I wear 'em when I DH; they tend to be a bit too bulky for general trail riding, though, IMHO.

Good luck to you and your wife...and have fun!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I still see you driving her with your motivations.*

The major energy in your disposition is your own frustration. It doesn't matter if you see her potential or if she has ridden to a higher level in the past. You see her feet higher on some imaginary ladder and she experiences her feet much lower, thank you very much. What are you going to do, talk her out of it? Stop trying to use reason to deal with this fear of hers; you use it as a rationale to dismiss something that is very powerful. If you don't you will become permanently irrelevant. 
What does your assumption that biking needs to be faster than walking reveal. It says that you have assumed absolute truths about riding a bike. What if this doesn't happen to match up with the real experience of your wife? You cease to have meaning for her concerning biking.
All this need to challenge oneself and finding a trigger to clear the hurdle are all in you own mind. They all have to do with the way YOU think. It is you wife who is riding her bike in her body, not you. That is why you hear "mind your own business." It doesn't matter how right you THINK you are. All that is irrelevant to what your wife is experiencing.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

This reminds me of when my hubby tried to get me to be a whitewater boater... g-d knows I tried it all sorts of different way, we even bought a boat that was better for someone my size, I used to just about puke before every class 4 rapid, but I was going to learn how to do it, he wanted me to learn how to do it. I woke up one day and asked myself why I was putting myself through this.... I said, no more. I will occasioanlly run class 3 on easy rivers, but only if it's hot and sunny out and there's no real potential for flipping. He was really sad that I wouldn't do the kind of white water he'd like me to do; he had dreams of us boating together all the time I am much happier being a fairweather boater, or better still, a passenger or a shuttle bunny than I am running the oars.

It's not what he wants for me, but it's what* I *want for me.

Now we bike together all the time, but I wont repeat myself about how I dealt with that situation.

formica


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

@dam, you sound like a good guy, but you really need to keep in mind how your attitude is affecting her. The single best thing you can do for her - both with riding and with anything else - is to cut out the nit-picking and suggestions. I'm a nit-picker survivor... all it did was build up a WHOLE lot of resentment and made me want to do anything other than what he was trying to get me to do. Those who suggest/nitpick obviously mean well - that's why we put up with it, for a while anyway - but it is the opposite of helpful.

Give her space. She'll figure it out if she wants to. She has all of the tools. Mtb is a joy, and as long as she can keep the joy in the riding she'll keep it up.

Good luck!


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Stop trying to use reason to deal with this fear of hers


So it is better to let your loved ones wallow and stagnate in their fears, not experiencing the good things in life to the fullest?

Carpe' Diem



> What does your assumption that biking needs to be faster than walking reveal.


That isn't an assumption. It is the reason the bicycle was invented. The bicycle was a way to make a device known as a "Swift walker" (a bike without pedals designed to allow people to walk or jog very quickly) even swifter. It was never intended as merely a heavier, more expensive way to walk.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

@dam said:


> So it is better to let your loved ones wallow and stagnate in their fears, not experiencing the good things in life to the fullest?
> 
> Carpe' Diem
> 
> That isn't an assumption. It is the reason the bicycle was invented. The bicycle was a way to make a device known as a "Swift walker" (a bike without pedals designed to allow people to walk or jog very quickly) even swifter. It was never intended as merely a heavier, more expensive way to walk.


Is wallow and stagnate what YOU say, or is what she says? Oh, wait, you won't ask her because



> I think asking that would really piss her off, especially based on many of the "mind your own business" comments that have been thrown my way in the past day.


sounds to me like there may be bigger issues than just riding here....

~formica


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Hmmm...perhaps I should encourage her to take up knitting, or more reading or TV watching instead. Those are safe, low-fear activities. That isn't really LIVING though, and that is what I was getting at in that comment.

I'm sorry for being frustrated, but I'm getting some mixed messages here. Ask her this, leave her alone, how does she feel about that, let her figure it out on her own, etc.

I'll I want to know is how different people, intermediate women in particular, got themselves to try new things and push their limits and build confidence in their abilities and their equipment. I didn't mean for this to be a battle of wills...a battle of the sexes here.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*You just aren't getting this are you.*

Okay, I'll put it really simple so you can understand it. You ride your way and she can ride hers.
Haven't you ever seen over controlling parents force their kids to do thing they weren't ready to do? Hello? Is anyone there. Hello? Hello?
You are so convinced that your way of approaching this sport is right that it has to be right for her. That is just righteous. And add to that you are going to be a big hero and rescue her from her fears, show her the error of her ways and reveal her true cycling self to her self. Take some of that heroic energy and use it on yourself because the way you are going you may as well ride the bike for her. 
And yes, it IS and assumption, of an assumption no less, which limits its purpose to simply being FASTER and allows that there is only one way to ride a bike. I imagine that there are about 5000 people on this site that would argue that with you.

I will quote the godess formica from the Book for Morons:
"It's not what he wants for me, but it's what I want for me."


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## jewels (Mar 17, 2004)

*her way...*

jeez, just let her go about it at her pace. I'm sure she's interpretting your encouragement as belittlement (not that it's your intention). Don't you think she's already bummed out with herself she isn't making the section? Just like the rafting example, I can relate with surfing. Me and my bf love surfing, but I will NEVER be able to surf the size waves that he does. I have progressed at my pace and still continue to learn and improve every winter. But when the surf is really big, we go to separate spots in separate cars. I know that I don't want to ruin his session and he knows that he'll ruin mine. We go out together in conditions challenging to me and he is very encouraging, but it took a very long time to gain the skill and confidence to do this. (i.e. Trail difficulty level) Anyhow, this is looking alot like the clipless pedal thread. Just be there to enjoy her company while riding and her enthusiam will continue to grow as will her desire to improve. Good luck, hope you see where we are coming from.

>I'll I want to know is how different people, intermediate women in particular, got themselves to try new things and push their limits and build confidence in their abilities and their equipment

Oh, new bike parts help too. How about some chi chi parts that'll help like a new fork, bigger tires or disc brakes? I balked at most of the bike technology the S.O. put on, but am totally in love with them now. btw, the new women's FSR sounds GREAT. Do it! What'll it hurt?


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## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

*Argh*

I tried to stay out, but I just couldn't......

@dam - have you really considered that what you are accomplishing is p*ssing your SO off? I got into riding because by BF (now hubby) did it. The good news was that I enjoyed it. Hubby, however was and will always be at a MUCH higher skill level than I am, for many reasons.

For me, it took riding with SIMILAR ABILITY riders to really build my confidence. As stated previously, riding with WOMEN has also been a HUGE boost. Several years later, I now lead a weekly ride with a large group of intermediate/advanced women. We ride a lot of technical trails, and we have a great time. In fact, some of us even ride better with this group than with our SOs!

I will still ride with my hubby as well, and even to this day, his expectations are much higher than my confidence level - I accept that. for instance, we have this one rock drop that I have ridden many times in the past, but don't ride anymore (sound familiar???). I know that I CAN do it, I just don't WANT to do it. Frankly, even though I have ridden it, it still scares me. HUbby will often comment about my not riding this obstacle - "You've ridden it before", "Your friend xxx rides it...." - all these comments do is p*ss me off, and put me in a foul mood.

Be patient. Let her do her own thing. You are the one who is frustrated, but if you keep making the comments and pushing, you'll push her right out of biking all together.....


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

See what I mean- Formica critisizes me for not talking to her about riding, and you guys get on me FOR talking to her.

I think you guys are making a lot of assumptions about me, especially you Mike (I know how you feel about assumptions, Mike). Just because I'm bringing all these points up with you guys doesn't mean I bring them up with her.

FYI, the only suggestions I've given her in recent times are...
1) look further down the trail so obstacles are less suprising
2) give the sand pits a try, and some tips on how to handle them (since sand pits are just a PIA and not scarry or dangerous)


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

OK, @dam, here it is from the horse's mouth... an intermediate woman rider who had to overcome a huge portion of fear after going over the bars and breaking a collarbone...

I knew (and know) that I can ride better than I do right now - faster, more technical, etc. However, for whatever reason my mind is still in my way and I get extremely frustrated walking obstacles that I had no problem riding before my crash. I'm slowly progressing on the technical stuff and am riding more challenging terrain, but this ONLY after I stopped letting everybody else (read my X) beat me up about it. I generated plenty of frustration on my own, thank you.

I'm focusing on other things right now - fitness, stamina, the scenery, whatever. When I can get my mind around that stuff, the lifts and ledges and creek crossings aren't foremost in my mind. The less I think about those things and the more I think about my aerobic performance, the easier the technical stuff is getting. 

I usually ride by myself, but when I ride with other folks I either ride with other intermediates, or with an extremely advanced woman rider who's confident enough in herself to not feel the need to harass me. When she chooses to ride with me she knows she's out for a toodle (at least as far as her skill level goes). She's there for the company and she lets me know it. I learn from her when we ride, but it's a really passive thing. She drops me like a hot potato on things I don't even consider an obstacle. Just watching her, and soaking in her attitude, are the best things my riding could ever get.

So, again, I go back to my previous point. I'm not trying to beat you up - but you really, really need to back off or you're going to poison her mountain biking experience. 

A suggestion - get together with a group of riders of mixed skill levels. You ride with the advanced riders, she can ride with the slower group. Ride the same terrain or different terrain - doesn't matter. Meet at the end of the day for beer. Enjoy. That way everybody gets their ya-yas and nobody gets frustrated, and you still get to hang with your lady.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'll answer that*



@dam said:


> I'll I want to know is how different people, intermediate women in particular, got themselves to try new things and push their limits and build confidence in their abilities and their equipment. I didn't mean for this to be a battle of wills...a battle of the sexes here.


Time and practice. Time and practice. Time and practice. Time and practice.

Small victories, crash, regression, another small victory. Better bike. Armour. More small victories, crash, regression. Repeat.

It's not a linear process for me, and I suspect it's the same for your wife. The only thing I can suggest is just more saddle time, since my confidence soars when I can ride a few days in a row. Once a week doesn't really help me push my boundaries.

And as much as you don't want to make this about the differences in the sexes, it really just is that. A difference. My observation of men is they try things whether they have the the skill or not. Women on the other hand will often hold back even when they have the skill. If I could figure out why, I'd be a much better rider and have a happier spouse, who I'm sure shares the same frustrations about me that you have with your wife.

My last recommendation: try to accept that she's different than you and that there's really nothing you can do to change it.

Good luck!
Mary Ann


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*There is nothing wrong with assumptions.*

The problem occurs when you deny them, take them up unilaterally, but deny that you apply them bilaterally. It leaves two parties on different pages.

Different note:

Have you ever listened to your SO cavetch about a problem and when you offer solutions she just gets mad and says you don't understand? Anybody out there ever have this happen?
What is happening here is this behavior is a way of experiencing the problem by way of validation and review. It has nothing to do with resolution in any immediate sense but contiributes to resolution way down the road. It is a way of sharing and touching base with people, re-experiencing the event, and building a foundation for understanding.It doesn't matter that this problem is soluble from your perspective, that your SO has the life skills to solve this problem, or that your SO has solved this problem before. Your SO isn't stupid and you aren't smart.This stage of the experience is not about that; it is about rehersal, refinement, and understanding within limits that you do not understand but only seem to be able to manage in your own way. It is a neccessary stage for solid growth in your SO.

Now apply this to the riding scenario and go bike shopping. Color is everything.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

@dam said:


> See what I mean- Formica critisizes me for not talking to her about riding, and you guys get on me FOR talking to her.
> 
> I think you guys are making a lot of assumptions about me, especially you Mike (I know how you feel about assumptions, Mike). Just because I'm bringing all these points up with you guys doesn't mean I bring them up with her.
> 
> ...


Correction: I critiicize you for not communicating about the emotions, fears, concerns etc; communicating being talking and listening. yes the impression you are giving is that you are talking TO her ( not WITH her) and not listening . You give the impression that you are not listening and accepting about what she has to say. Your comments up to now give the impression that you have talked to her about sandpits, looking down the trail, clipless, going too slow, your frustration with her not wanting to do it your way.

Who knows what you are really saying, one can only go off the information you give here. Based on my experience only, a good relationship is based on the ablity to have two way communication about any and everything, not avoiding topics because they might piss someone off. And listening and respecting someone else's point of view and /or experience whether you agree with it or not. Finding solutions that work for both, even if they are compromises, and not one partner trying to fix what they percieve as being wrong with the other.Jewel's surfing analogy is perfect. But what do I know, I've been married for 24 years and involved in all sorts of active sports for that time with my hubby who introduced me to the world of outdoor fun. (biking, skiing, whitewater, backpacking to name a few)

idea...why not have HER post about her riding needs and issues, if she so chooses. Then she could find her own solutions.

formica


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

*What the women have to say*

pay careful attention to what the WOMEN here have to say. You did ask for our help, remember? Print this out and tape it on wall above your toilet.



> does she WANT to do these things, or is she just going along with you because you want her to do it... that can hugely affect attitude.





> Find her a women's group to ride with, or just other riders, WITHOUT YOU PRESENT! When I first got into mtn biking, my b/f couldn't understand why I would try obstacles, etc. and kept trying to push me. Ended up in a lot of fights! I found some guys to ride with online, who didn't mind a beginner, and that totally built up my confidence! For some reason the dynamics are different when someone other than your S/O are telling you how to go about trying a new thing.





> It is obvious that you love her and want to help her -- but the problem is that you probably can't -- she has to find that confidence herself -- and she may if you give her time and space.





> For me, confidence came when I got a bike that fit me correctly. That's not to say that at times I don't underestimate my ability and get off and walk. Make sure her bike fits correctly and is running smoothly.





> you really need to keep in mind how your attitude is affecting her. The single best thing you can do for her - both with riding and with anything else - is to cut out the nit-picking and suggestions. I'm a nit-picker survivor... all it did was build up a WHOLE lot of resentment and made me want to do anything other than what he was trying to get me to do. Those who suggest/nitpick obviously mean well - that's why we put up with it, for a while anyway - but it is the opposite of helpful.





> Maybe you should ask her (in as non-condescending a way as possible) whether she'd like some knee and elbow pads to go with that new bike.





> , just let her go about it at her pace. I'm sure she's interpretting your encouragement as belittlement (not that it's your intention). Don't you think she's already bummed out with herself she isn't making the section?





> you really, really need to back off or you're going to poison her mountain biking experience.





> Time and practice. Time and practice. Time and practice. Time and practice.





> try to accept that she's different than you and that there's really nothing you can do to change it.





> Be patient. Let her do her own thing. You are the one who is frustrated, but if you keep making the comments and pushing, you'll push her right out of biking all together.....





> have you really considered that what you are accomplishing is p*ssing your SO off? I got into riding because by BF (now hubby) did it. The good news was that I enjoyed it. Hubby, however was and will always be at a MUCH higher skill level than I am, for many reasons.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

she doesn't like bulletin boards- never posted to one before.


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

hey @dam,
from my personal experience, I think time and space is the way to go here. When I first got into mtn biking, my b/f thought he was being the bestest, most patience teacher on the planet and he just wasn't. I still remember (this was about 8 years ago) him saying to me "But you're not even TRYING!". I think that was when I burst into tears. Needless to say, we stopped riding together because he took all the fun out of it for me. Although he still doesn't think so. After watching my new bike collect dust, I decided to go online and find some OTHER people to ride with. Without him. Mostly guys since there aren't many women mtn bikers, at least not where I am. I was very upfront about being a beginner. Found a bunch of great people to ride with and mostly went on rides with just 1 other person at a time (as opposed to group rides, which totally unnerved me!). Took me a while (a long while), but I built up my skills and my confidence to the point where I do some racing, and can go on group rides with 15 guys, as the lone female, and hold my own. Time and space!
If you guys do go riding together, my best suggestion is to keep your mouth shut -you know how women are, we twist everything around and ALWAYS feel like you're criticizing or picking on us  - let her figure things out on her own. If she wants your help, she will ask for it!


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## RedRider (May 11, 2004)

*Mike said it best...*

You go your pace and let her go hers. If you know she's a slower rider than you, just accept that when you ride together you will wait for her at the end of the trail or at a fork. Just relax, have a snack, enjoy the outdoors, be happy that you have her around.

When my bf and I ride, he knows that he'll have to wait for me - I'll never ride as fast as him. He knows this before we even leave the parking lot. We ride together because we enjoy the company, and it's how we spend time together. It's also cool with me when he rides with other people (usually faster, better riders than I). If you want to ride fast and technical, maybe she isn't your best partner. Even riding alone occasionaly might be a good chance for you to go your own pace. Most SO are cool with the other partner doing their own thing.

Good luck.


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

Neen said:


> ...my best suggestion is to keep your mouth shut -you know how women are, we twist everything around and ALWAYS feel like you're criticizing or picking on us


Truer words were never spoken.  

OK, since the equipment aspects of this thread seem to be taking a back seat...

From someone who is a gravity junky and rides often with a GF that isn't, do your best to hold your tongue with unsolicited advice. Offer up a healthy dose - in a positive way - when asked, but otherwise patiently wait at the bottom of the hill. It sometimes helps to advise in a non-personal way, e.g., explaining that carrying speed and laying off the brakes over a rough downhill section preserves momentum, increases stability, and reduces the risk of a fall. Stay away from insinuating any type of fault or lack of skill/courage. If you stick with non-personal facts oftentimes advice is easier to accept, as it's not seen as a personal attack.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to encourage someone you care for, especially if that person has a desire to improve. Just mind the Mars/Venus thing, don't be an asshat, and remember that when the ride is over and done, sleeping on the couch with the dog sucks. 

Cheers.


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## litespeedchick (Jan 13, 2004)

Dear @adam - 

After reading all the posts, especially BMike's, I figure you need a pep talk worse than your wife does!

I for one think it's great that you are still hanging in there and trying to be helpful. I'm pretty sure my husband would have quit riding w/ me a long time ago if I was regressing instead of progressing, refusing to pedal normally, freaking out after a nothing crash, etc. I share your frustration.

The only advice is can give is what you have gotten already. Just leave her alone, wait at the trail intersections, and see if she works through it herself. I've been riding so long it's hard to remember what helped me learn to do technical sections, but I'm pretty sure it was time and practice (mostly time) as another poster sagely pointed out. What about the stuff I refuse to try today? Upon reflection, it's very possible that I will refuse those sections forever and ever amen. Having acquired a couple of scars on my face and broken a leg, I've settled on approximately how hurt I'm willing to get. It may be that your wife has set her own injury-tolerance as well, and that it's very, very low. You may have to live w/ this. On the other hand, maybe one day it will just come. After I broke my leg I was extremely timid on the downhills for 5-6 months after I got back on the bike. Then one gorgeous early spring day, suddenly everything just clicked...and I became my regular only-mildly-timid self on the downhill 

Good luck...and remember, she's (probably) only annoyed w/ you and frustrated w/ herself...not really mad at you. If you ditch her at home w/ nothing fun to do while you go ride...then you will know what mad at you is!


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## divs (Jun 4, 2004)

*fear*



@dam said:


> I'll I want to know is how different people, intermediate women in particular, got themselves to try new things and push their limits and build confidence in their abilities and their equipment. I didn't mean for this to be a battle of wills...a battle of the sexes here.


All the other advice is really good, but I'm tossing in my 2 cents on one angle I haven't seen addressed so far. Fear is powerful and paralyzing - I know 'cuz I still have plenty of it.

Don't bother telling her that she shouldn't be afraid of slow falls. Falling is scary and jarring no matter what, and it *will* ruin a ride for someone like me. It causes a huge adrenaline surge, a skyrocketing heart rate, and pain for the rest of the ride. Even those "oh sh*t, I almost crashed" dismounts can cause the same effect. If she's too shaken up to finish a ride, don't push her. Just head back to the car, and let her walk the whole way out if she wants to. Some falls are scarier than others, but only experience ever convinced me of that. Pads help to prevent injury, but the fear/adrenaline factor can still be there to end that ride! Some people can break a bone and keep riding; some of us can't even think about breaking a bone.

I'm only just progressing from a beginner to intermediate trails, and I first started riding a mountain bike in 1999 (!) For a couple years, I built up my skills, then I tried going clipless. Just like your SO, I had a few rough falls, and I regressed. A lot. How did I build my confidence back up? With some time off the bike followed by baby steps. So if she really wants your help getting over her fear, here are some things that I haven't seen suggested so far:

- practice going off curbs - start ridiculously small (2-3 inches) and work up to standard curb size
- practic riding in tight circles, or standing up, or with only one foot on the pedal, etc., on an empty street
- practice dismounts with quick stops, on downslopes & upslopes (driveways with shallow inclines are good for this)
- find some paved downhills to ride on, and gradually work up to riding them without brakes, with butt off the seat
- practice riding over *small* obstacles on level fire roads, rather than avoiding them
- stop as often as she wants to on any ride (I would stop after every obstacle that I *cleared* on my first technical singletrack 'cuz my heart would be hammering, which drove my hubby nuts as he was riding behind me, clipped in  )

Yeah, all of this is really "basic & easy", but it helps build confidence and stamina. Oh yeah, and avoid trails when they are full of hikers, joggers, horseback riders, etc.. Personally, I will swallow my ego and walk rather than risk a fall in front of an audience.

And finally, after she gets her dual suspension bike, set the shocks nice and soft for dirt, and make sure she has disc brakes even if she's a lightweight. When I first tried my disc brakes on a downhill that I knew well, I was amazed at how much more control I had over my speed! They've really helped my confidence over the last few months.

-D.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

*another intermediate rider who's still working on building confidence*

Things that have helped me build confidence as an intermediate female rider (in order of how important I think they have been to my skill development):

1. time and mileage (~4 years from beginner to intermediate)

2. doing the occasional ride with women closer to my ability

3. finally coming to believe my bf when he tells me that he loves riding with me, even though it means he has some extra time to practice his own skills while he waits for me, and that he will love me and love riding with me regardless of how advanced I become on a bike (I put quite enough pressure on myself, and having his calming influence on me made a big difference once I got it through my head that he wasn't just telling me what he thought I wanted to hear)

Good luck to you and your wife.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*If you want something*

from your wife you have to give her what she wants, not what you think she wants or what you think she should want.
I sincerely doubt that you have said most of these things you have shared in this thread to your wife but you have clearly described how you think about this problem. I think you are thickheaded and just won't give up the self righteous position. Don't mistake riding skills for teaching skills.
The girls on this site are a lot nicer to you about this than I am.


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## bikerx40 (Jan 9, 2004)

My wife has only been riding for a couple of years now, and at first she was pretty timid on technical sections. I can tell you right now, LISTEN TO WHAT THE WOMEN HERE ARE SAYING!!!! Go back and re-read this entire post! 

Now that you're back...
The best thing that you can do is shut your trap, bite your tongue, etc. When the two of you ride together, don't offer any suggestions, tips, or anything. If she fails to master something, then she'll ask for help (from you or, more likely, her peers). 

This year, my wife made some of the biggest technical gains yet. The difference from previous years? We rode with another couple who is very evenly matched. This was great because I could ride with the other guy and 'get our testosterone going', while my wife and her friend could challenge each other at their own pace. We would all meet up every 10 minutes or so and regroup. It turns out that my wife would see the other gal ride over a log and my wife would attempt it too. If either of them didn't 'clean' a section, then they would sometimes turn around and re-attempt the section. 

This past season, I also encouraged my wife and friend to enter a two day Dirt Camp in Sun Valley, ID. The camp environment was great for them. The girls in their skills group would learn wheelies, bunny-hops, manuals, and even teeter-totters and drop-offs ramps. Of course, if one girl cleaned an obstacle, then the others would 'have to' clean is too due to the competitive drive that we all have within ourselves. The key here is that my wife was seeing her peers cleaning the obstacles, not just me cleaning something. 
Amazing yourself by cleaning obstacles/sections that you never thought possible is the best way to gain confidence. It must come from within her. 

At the end of this season, my wife is more excited about riding than ever (dare I say, almost more than me?). She has things like carbon bars, lightweight wheels, etc. on her Christmas list! 

*Bottom line:* 
Listen to what others have already stated. Be quietly encouraging, find a riding couple that is closely matched, show her the dirt camp web sites and let her take a 'girls weekend' paid in full. 

Above all, be very patient. Today, you may be riding at a pace that's slower than walking, but keep in mind that if you are patient it will pay off and she will be the one scheduling the trip to Moab

Edit: P.S.- My wife just added that it was helpful that I ride a little ways behind her. Before the descent, let her go first, then wait a couple of minutes. This way, you can ride full speed on the 'fun part' until you catch her again. Also, don't start a conversation with her while climbing because it will just make her feel worse.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

bikerx40 said:


> This past season, I also encouraged my wife and friend to enter a two day Dirt Camp in Sun Valley, ID. The camp environment was great for them. The girls in their skills group would learn wheelies, bunny-hops, manuals, and even teeter-totters and drop-offs ramps. Of course, if one girl cleaned an obstacle, then the others would 'have to' clean is too due to the competitive drive that we all have within ourselves. The key here is that my wife was seeing her peers cleaning the obstacles, not just me cleaning something.


that is one of the sugoi series camps, I know some gals from Boise who gave it a real thumbs up. They do them all over the western half of the US and Canada

http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/penny/biking/camplist.asp


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Neen said:


> I still remember (this was about 8 years ago) him saying to me "But you're not even TRYING!". I think that was when I burst into tears. Needless to say, we stopped riding together because he took all the *fun* out of it for me.


Biking should be fun One's version of fun can definitely be riding but pushing the bike at technical sections.

(Tables turned here)
My brother loves to ride. Heck, we went to Maui and he rode up Haleakala (10,000 feet) just for kicks. Has no interest in downhill and technical stuff at all. It's not the way I ride, but I respect it. That's his version of fun.

Listen to the ladies here, some good advice being given.


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## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

it sounds like fear may be your wifes problem. overcoming fear is an internal thing. my husband is so afraid of falling that he will not ride trails anymore at all. he has a hardtail and we ride the dirt roads or pavement only. i accept that. no criticism from me. so we do a road ride once or twice a week and that is great. i ride trails a couple times a week on my own or with friends, and my husband is ok with that.

my suggestion to you @dam is to simply accept the situation. enjoy your time with the wife. if you need to ride fast technical stuff do it on your own or with a buddy. simply accept the situation, placing no expectations. expectations breed disappointment.

be happy.

a womens only camp could be good if she wants to do that, but it has to be her choice.

Rita

p.s. berkley mike, lighten up. he asked for the womens opinions.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*What an odd thing to say, Rita.*

p.s. berkley mike, lighten up. he asked for the womens opinions.[/QUOTE]

If you read the original post has not asked for response from a specific gender but posted on a forum where issues concerning mtb and women are shared.
I would also remind you that while my tone has been hard hitting it has considerably supported his wife's needs, and especially, his need to seperate his needs from what he believes hers are.
It is a curiousity, however, that several posts have suggested that Adam listen to what the women say. I say it is a curiousity because the basic principle of their messages have not been all that different from mine.
Curious.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

> while my tone has been hard hitting it has considerably supported his wife's needs, and especially, his need to seperate his needs from what he believes hers are


And I am forever greatful, Mike. You understand my wife's needs so much better than I do. I hope to know her as well myself one day.

Moving on, I'd like to thank pretty much everybody else. I greatly appreciate the constructive input and advice.


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## Mtnbikenmama (Apr 1, 2004)

*What helps me...*

AZ's advice is very sound. My husband has always been very patient with my fears and frustrations on the trails. He gives advice when I ask for it ( I know it must be hard for him to hold his tongue because he loves to teach) , he has upgraded my bike twice now. When we ride together, I choose the trail, unless I insist that he chooses. That is his desire not mine, I'm not a pushy kind of girl. His words of encouragement are kind, and I sence no underlying frustration or irritation in him if I walk a tricky section etc. I have had set backs in my confidence several times in the past 2 1/2 years of riding. Fear is a powerful demon to fight, but the others are right, it is a private fight, I just had to decide to swollow my fear get on the bike and ride. But I gave myself grace too. I used to be really good at beating myself up. But now if I need a month of easy rides after a fall, that's what I do. It has also helped me in teaching my kids how to mtb, I am very patient (not natural for me;-) and let nature take it's course, instead of trying to force something in them that is not ready to manifest itself in their skill level yet.

Practical tips- my skills jumped a level when i went from a xc stumpjumper to an all mtn bike. The front end isn't twitchy, and my confidence on the downhill has increased. I like 2.3's front and rear (Nokian), I use elbow and knee pads when I feel the need. Keep the front tire pressure lower- women have less upper body mass, the tire will grip the turns better. Doing the Womens Only Weekend in Big Bear helped, it was fun and confidence building. My husband does what we call doggy laps. He rides on ahead for awhile, and then comes back and greet's me and goes on again, or he rides in the really rough, rocky stuff on the side of the fire road etc- that's fun to watch! And it slows him down to almost my speed. I had to swallow my pride at first with him having to do this to ride with me, but I realized he just loved being out there with me and it was no sacrifice for him. Believe in your wife , but don't let it become a frustration. LIke you said Carpe diem- seize the day- the fact that you are alive, together and in love. The riding skills are secondary. In that kind of atmosphere she will inevidebly be strengthed and conquer those fear demons. 
God Bless & Take Care
Donna


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## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> p.s. berkley mike, lighten up. he asked for the womens opinions.


If you read the original post has not asked for response from a specific gender but posted on a forum where issues concerning mtb and women are shared.
I would also remind you that while my tone has been hard hitting it has considerably supported his wife's needs, and especially, his need to seperate his needs from what he believes hers are.
It is a curiousity, however, that several posts have suggested that Adam listen to what the women say. I say it is a curiousity because the basic principle of their messages have not been all that different from mine.
Curious.[/QUOTE]

@dam asked on a womens forum. i perhaps mistakenly believed he was asking for womens opinions. my bad?

lighten up: @dam does not/did not come to this forum to be berated. i felt you were being insulting and that is not right. you have valuable experience with girls/women and had some good ideas, presentation could have been better, imo, thus the 'lighten up.'

Rita


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I never said that*



@dam said:


> And I am forever greatful, Mike. You understand my wife's needs so much better than I do. I hope to know her as well myself one day.
> 
> Moving on, I'd like to thank pretty much everybody else. I greatly appreciate the constructive input and advice.


I knew you wife better than you. I just pointed out that she wasn't you, a difference you continued to ignore and refused to consider as the thread continued. Such a movement in understanding is more of a leap for some than others, just as some cycling behaviors are a bit of a leap for others which you might do as a matter of course. Once one "gets it" they shake their head and wonder how they missed it. Perfectly intelligent and thoughtful people are not exempt. It is a human foible.

As I look at the thread I realized that I was reacting to your flat refusal in your first response to seperate your vision of what you wife ought to be from what she was in fact. This is the very thing which seperates all of the motivations and abilities of the two of you (and any other rider for that matter.) And this is something which most of the posts following suggested. I wonder if this was the type of answer you wer looking for or expected. I doubt you will forget it.
My apologies for my lack of grace.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

My wife and I had a few glasses of wine with dinner tonight. We're so laid back with a bit of wine it is a good time to ask questions without reading anything into them.

I asked her something to the effect of 'what does she want out of mtbing' or what are her goals, or something like that.

The FIRST, and immediate, response was "I'd like to be more confident on the downhills and the hard parts".

I guess I know my wife OK after all, Mike. I take back my last post.


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## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

@dam said:


> My wife and I had a few glasses of wine with dinner tonight. We're so laid back with a bit of wine it is a good time to ask questions without reading anything into them.
> 
> I asked her something to the effect of 'what does she want out of mtbing' or what are her goals, or something like that.
> 
> ...


So did you follow that up with "And what do you think is the best way to accomplish those goals?"???? Sounds to me like you had the PERFECT opportunity to offer her some of the suggestions provided here.....


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

*Men are from Mars...*



SheFly said:


> So did you follow that up with "And what do you think is the best way to accomplish those goals?"???? Sounds to me like you had the PERFECT opportunity to offer her some of the suggestions provided here.....


@dam... why don't you have her read this thread? Better - why don't you read it together? Out loud? There's been a lot of discussion here, and in the vein of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" I bet it would generate a lot of clear talk between the two of you. People have been pretty open here - including you. It would probably be very helpful for her, in a non-threatening way, to find out what you really think, and about what the rest of us gals think about what you had to say. There's nothing really incriminating here for you, and I think reading this together and the ensuing discussion would be really helpful for both of you.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Why!? Because I've said things in here that I wouldn't say to straight to her, because they'd be taken to critically.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

@dam said:


> Why!? Because I've said things in here that I wouldn't say to straight to her, because they'd be taken to critically.


I think mountaingirl1961's suggestion is excellent. 
You could cut and paste the suggestions, say something like " hey honey, I found all these ideas from other women about building confidence, what do you think?" What is she going to say, "gee you are an a******e for thinking of me?"
If you aren't willing to have a 100% open conversation about this, I'll say it again: I will put my money on you guys having bigger communication issues than just mountain biking.....

And a helpful tip: never ever say things about your SO on the internet that you wouldn't say to their face.

formica


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

@dam said:


> Why!? Because I've said things in here that I wouldn't say to straight to her, because they'd be taken to critically.


@dam, your first post was pretty straightforward. You had a couple of subsequent ones where your frustration with the situation (and with the feedback) was showing. You can't think she doesn't already know you're frustrated? I don't know your wife, but as a rule guys don't give us gals enough credit for understanding what's happening between your ears.

Use Formica's method and do some cutting and pasting... but the ONLY thing I'd cut would be your more frustrated comments. Leave all of the rest, because every thing that's been said will lead to conversational points that would give insights on both your parts.

You would be amazed how valuable a "he says/she says" kind of conversation like this can be, as long as you both maintain open hearts and minds.

Seriously - good luck. And find some more riding partners of varying skill levels.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

> If you aren't willing to have a 100% open conversation about this, I'll say it again: I will put my money on you guys having bigger communication issues than just mountain biking.....


So, Formica, you didn't mean it when you said...



> "Nothing would piss me off more than being offered unsolicited tips, suggestions and advice that were well meaning but extremely annoying"


Are you just messing with me now, or what?

Or how about tips like...



> my b/f couldn't understand why I would try obstacles, etc. and kept trying to push me. Ended up in a lot of fights...
> 
> ...I just hope to god you aren't verbalizing any of this to her...
> 
> ...


So by taking all that advice, suddenly we have a communication problem? Thank you, Dr. Phil.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> So, Formica, you didn't mean it when you said...
> Quote:
> "Nothing would piss me off more than being offered unsolicited tips,
> suggestions and advice that were well meaning but extremely annoying"


Of course I mean it.

It saddens me that you would consider the above ( unsolicited tips advice etc)
"communication". It's not, it's one sided and it's what I said it is:annoying to say the least.
When women talk like that to men, they typically call it "nagging". And that is not a conversation.
formica

edit: I know I sound harsh, it's just how I am. I don't know how to be "fluffy" about stuff, and women riding bikes is important stuff to me. I'm beginning to wonder what you are trying to get out of this. You've been given a ton of great advice, much of it along a similar vein, which it appears you don't want to take, or to use constructively ( i.e., share with her). So what's the point then? To use your Dr Phil terminology, if what you are doing is "working for you" you woudn't be here asking for advice, would you? And then you paste a list of advice that's been given, things that must work for the women here, or they wouldnt' have posted it, and call it a communication problem? It IS a communication problem if you don't listen and try to learn.

good luck.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

formica said:


> good luck.


Werd.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

And sitting her down and having her read this thread is something besides unsolicited advice, and is somehow a form of two-sided communication?

All I wanted with this thread were functional tips and stories on how women gained confidence, since I realized this is what my wife wanted and needed (which I've now confirmed since some seem to think I don't understand her). Once I have the ideas in mind, I'll work them in as appropriate. Communication is not the part I needed help with, and not what I asked for advice on- it was the content. Many here have realized this, and I appreciate their help. I posted this exact same question on another board and everybody seemed to understand this, and they all gave me very useful advice. If I were inclined to have her read this thread, it would be that version so she could get something useful out of it without having to weed through all of the mild flaming posted here.

I phrased things about what my wife's situation in riding is differently than I'd phrase them if I were talking to her. I did this because a) I wanted to convey the situation as plainly and concisely as possible & b) I don't have to worry about hurting her feelings here or having her take critisism to personaly here. Just because I wrote a certain way about her abilities on this board does not mean I speak that way to her when we're riding, so enough with the bashing. If you have something useful to contribute, I'd appreciate it. If you want to play arm-chair marriage counselor with a couple you've never met, it really isn't necessary- we're fine, thanks.


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

@dam, @dam, @dam... we're not trying to flame you here (well, at least most of us aren't). Really we're not. And we are trying to be constructive.

Many of us women have been in similar situations. Our SO is better at biking/skiing/whatever than we are, and it can create a high frustration level for both parties. If you think you don't like waiting for someone, you should try being the person who is always, every single time, bringing up the rear. It is a drag. That's why so many of us have chimed in on this thread.

All we're saying is that there are better ways to approach the challenge than by offering loving, well-meant suggestions. While you may mean them one way, they're heard another and just add more fuel to the frustration she's generating on her own.

The reason I suggested sharing this thread (or an edited version of it) is that there are a lot of suggestions here for working through the problem, ranging from very specific technique things to more generalized solutions like finding new/different people to ride with. In addition, allowing her to share OUR experiences with similar situations (including the part of the situation that includes our SO's suggestions and frustrations) might help her understand that she's not the only woman in the world going through something like this with their SO. It's a whole lot more common than she probably knows. The first step she's going to need to take to improve is to stop beating herself up for "failing". All women do that to some degree, we're just wired that way. Realizing that almost every woman who rides with an SO has gone through the same thing might just give her an important tool to reach that goal.

OK? We're not trying to be Dr. Phil (can't stand that know-it-all anyway). Think Oprah. We're sharing here.

edit

A comment on Formica's point... again, just handing her the thread and walking away isn't communication, any more than is offering one-sided suggestions. That's why I thought you might want to try reading it together, even out loud. The idea is that it could serve as the basis for discussion, and not sound like an extension of the suggesting that's already going on. In this way, you'd help defuse some of the frustration she's feeling, as well as some of your own. It would help put you both in a more constructive mindset than the negative mindset you're currently experiencing when you ride.


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

BTW, there's a book that was published 20+ years ago called "The Inner Game of Tennis" that she might find helpful in this situation. The idea is that you use specific techniques to get your mind out of the way so that your body can do what it already knows how to do. I used the book's techniques when I was learning to play an instrument as a music major, and I know from experience that the precepts translate into disciplines other than tennis. She might want to have a look at it (in fact, it would probably do ME some good to read it again...)


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I somewhat disagree with your suggestion, mountaingirl (cutting and pasting the best ideas might be an acceptable approach), but you weren't the one saying we have communication issues if I choose not to follow that advice, and you weren't the one giving me contradictory advice, so my comments were primarily intended for Formica and not you.


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## Mountaingirl1961 (Nov 16, 2004)

I understand that, @dam. And, I understand that you've gotten a little frustrated with this thread. I just didn't want you to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There's been a lot of useful stuff shared here. Use it or toss it - that's up to you. But hopefully you (and the other gazillion people who've visited this conversation) can find something here that makes your situation easier.

Anyway, 'nuff said. From me, anyway.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Revealing this is a mistake.*

The kind of information you share on the internet anonymously is very different from what you might share in person. 
Everyone has to take in information as they can and process it within the abilities of their personality. Further processing of this information must be managed within the pardigms of the relationship which are really only appreciated by the people involved. As such, the information is mitigated and made more palatable in subtle ways which facilitates integration and maintains the relationship.
To reveal this infromation in this raw form would be assaultive. (Sorry this is not fluffy.)
You could, as suggested above, do a cut and paste of this thread but in the end you would appear to have made a study of you SO's circumstance and it would still be understood through your own personal filter. Even if you said, "but honey I did it for you," it would be an insult.
Stop and take a look at the information you have been offered. Avoid anything clever or any trick. Avoid the Rock Hudson/Doris Day tricks of love. Stay with hard work, patience, and care, and continue to look for the kinds of opportunities for your SO to share her love of this sport you and with other people.
Just because she said she wished she were stronger in some areas don't take that to mean you can now instruct her carte blanche. it will probably backfire and you will get nowhere by saying "well you said you wanted to learn."
Abide her learning. Abide yours. You are really th first issue here.


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## Team Pro Laps (Jul 1, 2004)

*Blair Lombardi Techniques*

A lot has been posted on this thread, but thought I would go ahead and post these tips from Blair Lombardi via an article posted on the Internet by Brian O'Connor. These points have been incredibly useful in developing my biking skills. I want to try to keep these in mind each time I ride. They are so simple and make such a difference.

Keep Fear in Balance

Sothere you are, strong, gung ho, properly outfitted and astride a bike that fits. You're ready to start acquiring specific skills-bunny hopping, trackstands, weight shifts, a smooth pedal stroke and a trained eye for the trail. Balance, or lack of it, can rob beginning cyclists of confidence and energy when they overreact and fight the bike or, worse, crash. As her chosen moniker- the Goddess of Balance-indicates, Blair Lombardi preaches the bible of equilibrium. A 43-year-old California-based elite cycling coach, Lombardi says that improving your balance is the fastest way to improve your riding. Three principles basic to her biking faith are:

• Keep your head upright and your chin pointed in the direction you want to go.

• Focus your attention on a reference point at least five feet above the ground.

• Look and think about where you're going, but ride by feel.

One of Lombardi's pet tactics is to have her students whistle or hum a tune as they ride. The idea, she says, is to "distract your mind so it leaves the body alone and lets it do its job. That unleashes your innate ability to balance. It unleashes the athlete in you." If you think this sounds very Zen, join the club. Still, it's tough to argue with success; Lombardi's legion of fans includes NVorld Cup racers and one of mountain biking's forefathers, bike designer Gary Fisher.

According to the book of Lombardi, the biggest obstacles facing mountain bikers are fear and the survival instincts that kick in when we get scared. That explains "panic braking." Fear forces us to look down at the very rock we want to avoid, to tense up when we need to stay relaxed. By honing our innate balance skills, Lombardi says, we can retrain those survival instincts. "Errors are body language for lack of confidence," she explains. "Exceptional athletes learn to deal with fear, not deny it. Even if you're not completely confident, act like you are, and you will be. It's a positive self-fulfilling prophesy."

What Lombardi wants cyclists to do is trust the big picture. Central to her methodology are your basic sensory organs-eyes, inner ears and proprioceptors-and your ability to tap those resources. Avoid taking a mental inventory of everything on the trail that might trip you up. Instead, pick your line and trust your central nervous system to do the work for you. "If you use ,vour peripheral vision, you will time your jumps perfectly," Lombardi says. "You'll lift your wheel just a hair before the obstacle."

Leading with your chin is a sin in boxing, but it's gospel in cycling. Keeping your chin up allows the inner ear to do its work. It also naturally helps you shift your weight back, lightening the load on the front wheel. Lombardi suggests that you imagine a line strung from your chin to the top of your front wheel. As you pull up, the front wheel follows, which allows it to roll over obstacles more easily. As the coach says, "Mountain biking is all about weight shift, balance and finesse."

Climbing, on the other hand, is still grunt work. Lombardi teaches classic climbing techniques, including putting your butt on the nose of the saddle, lowering your chest to the stem and pushing down and back on the handlebars to increase traction. If you can also keep your focus on the best line rather than on obstacles, you'll have more energy to put to the pedals.


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## Downhill Dawg (Nov 22, 2004)

*Progressive Encouragement*

You gotta understand your trail betty is probably like almost all the others. I think it's the rotational motion of the hips. It's a sweet deal to be able to just huck whenever the opportunity presents itself, which is pretty often in my neck of the 'hood. But when the betty tries a curb jump, she's can't rotate those hips back fast enough to finish off the wheelie. So either I ease up on her or I try a little psychology, like promising her a 40 oz MGD if she can clear a gutter from a curb jump. Just depends if I have the Benjamins for a couple 40s. Another thought is the bike setup. Maybe she needs to switch out her handlebars for something like butterfly handlebars, motocross style. They're sick.


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## Yetifan (Mar 24, 2004)

WOW, thanks @dam for starting this thread, when I started to read the first few posts, i thought you'd been riding with my and my GF, your 'scenario' is similar to mine.

My GF started to ride about 6 years ago, local rides, she would try to ride stuff, usually suprise herself and do it, a few tumbles, worst injury was a scratch on the shin so far, you'd think she'd broken every bone in her body the way she recalled the crash,and a recent one! I think the problem was she rememberd the crash far far worse than it ever was. So that put her off.

I tried the new bike thing, and now she has Tara Llanes old Yeti, an awesome bike better than mine I'd be proud of.

Having ridden in some amazing places, Beginner rides in France, Intermediate to tough in Wales(UK) and even a tiny bit on holiday in Colorado, and a recent return to France where she rode (very slowly- like 4-5mph) some of the DH track's I'd consider a challenge.

Now, where are we at? just about manage 20miles on the road, no confidence off road, can't ride up a curb, can't ride down more than 2 steps, constantly in the wrong gear, and riding with bent wrists, which I read in an article by Juli Furtado is mega bad, she tells me its how women ride though!

I tried all sorts, riding in front, behind, next to, all were wrong, no advice, some advice, and its just not happening! If she returned to how she was, riding at the back of a group, that would be no problem, she could tackle things in her own time. But, now we are miles behind, covering ground at 1/2 the speed we once could.

I don't know what to do, thank goodness I found this thread, I can show it to her.

I'm a great believer, that if you want to do something, then it will come, maybe it will take time, but it WILL come.

here she is on one of the good days!









Thanks.
Andrew!


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## Hello Kitty (Sep 3, 2004)

*Some real advice.*

All of the advice contained in this thread is great. To a point. The fact of the matter is when you tell anyone, regardless of age or gender, _too long _ that they're great and working hard enough in the face of no or declining progress -- you are not helping them, and they will not improve.

When the lack of progress has become unbearable for you (and her), I recommend telling her so in no uncertain terms during in the ride: "You're not even trying." Then ride off and let her catch up. _Don't _ be too nice. _Stop _ coddling her. Sure, she'll be mad as hell for a day or two, but this kind of kick in the pants might get her to realistically look at her effort, see that she has much more ability and "try" in her than she realizes, and finally get her out of her rut! And _if _ she gets out of her rut, she might just find out why you love mountain biking so much. And _if _ that happens, you'll both be too happy to spit.

Or she'll just stay mad for a week, stop biking altogether, and instead choose to spend her free time in a mall. Which would be fine too; you'll be able to ride with people who love the sport and your mojo won't be killed having to stop every ten minutes and act like you care when she whines. It's a win win.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Thanks Kitty.

Well, step one is finished. We picked up a new medium Juliana SL on the way home tonight.

Also attached is a picture of the famous curb-sized drop I mentioned in my first post. Hopefully she'll ride it now!


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## jewels (Mar 17, 2004)

*congrats*



@dam said:


> Thanks Kitty.
> 
> Well, step one is finished. We picked up a new medium Juliana SL on the way home tonight.
> 
> Also attached is a picture of the famous curb-sized drop I mentioned in my first post. Hopefully she'll ride it now!


We didn't scare you away huh?  New ride looks super, that alone will stoke her to ride more and improve. Give us a positive update in a few weeks, let us know how she likes it.

btw- I love the kenda nevegals, got the 2.1 and 2.3. Is that what she has?


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Nah...they're kenda Karma Pro's. Awesome, light, fast tire for hardpack, but they're pretty sketchy in the sand- very shallow tread. There is a LOT of sand around here, so I also picked us both up a WTB Mutano Raptor 2.4 for the front and she can have my front Continental Vertical Pro-Tection 2.3 for the rear, so we'll run the same tire combo.

Hey...are there any women, or a couple, in the Santa Barbara/San Luis Obispo area out there looking to go for a ride?


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

*Some other ideas.....*

can you do some urban and/or hike-n-bike trail riding?

is there some place nice or special and easy to get to you can ride to together?

pre-plan and leave a picnic or maybe just some wine at the top of a hill and share a nice sunset.

ride around the neighborhood checking out all the holiday lights.

make it NOT about riding but about a destination or ....


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

Hey Jewels, you said you love the Kenda Nevagals. They looked incredible to me (mine are on backorder!!). Just wondering what kind of terrain you use them on. I live in the northeast where the terrain is very rocky and hardpacked.



jewels said:


> We didn't scare you away huh?  New ride looks super, that alone will stoke her to ride more and improve. Give us a positive update in a few weeks, let us know how she likes it.
> 
> btw- I love the kenda nevegals, got the 2.1 and 2.3. Is that what she has?


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## jewels (Mar 17, 2004)

*nevs*



Neen said:


> Hey Jewels, you said you love the Kenda Nevagals. They looked incredible to me (mine are on backorder!!). Just wondering what kind of terrain you use them on. I live in the northeast where the terrain is very rocky and hardpacked.


I'm on Maui, so our terrain is so varied. I like them best when the terrain is slickish roots and rocky. Basically, when I'm not confident, the tires are. I do run my tires soft. 2.1's are wider than the typical 2.1's, weight is fair about 650gm each I think. The 2.3 are really nice if you don't mind the extra weight ~800. My bf runs the 2.5s, he's the one that turned me away from wtbs. When it's really wet, muddy and sticky, I might go Conti survival pros. Only one caveat, they stick-e compound really wears down faster, but worth it I think.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Zowie!*

Ther ain't nothin' like a new bike.


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