# Tips for helping with weight? - A problem for the slim riders amongst us



## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

I have read a couple of ‘tips for weight loss for riding’ threads, and has been interested to read what people have suggested to do.

I have a similar problem, but on the other end of the scale.

I am after some ‘tips for keeping the weight whilst riding’.

As a bit of a background on myself, I have always been on the ‘slim’ side, and have a very fast metabolism. I also have a fairly crazy work environment where I am struggling to find the time to get a decent lunch in (work in design and marketing). To help overcome this, I have been constantly snacking at my desk (nuts/bread/potatoes/fruits/etc). I also don’t really like processed sweet/sugary foods (processed sugar gives me headaches) and eat junk food/take away maybe once every 6 months.

What I have found over the last 12 months is that due to the steep increase in my riding/training to help improve my overall fitness for XC events, the snacking at the desk doesn’t really work anymore and I have lost a fair chunk of weight. At first I was great because I was loosing my beer belly podge, however it’s not cool that I am starting to loose some of my upper body mass as well. I understand that being on the slim side for riding is ‘acceptable’, however I would prefer to not loose any more weight or even put on a bit more mass if I can.

When I started competing I weighed 86kg (190 pounds). As of last week, I weight 78kg (171 pounds). My height is 186cm (6.1 feet).

Given my current work/life balance, I would really like to find a way to increase intake outside of work hours.

My current Mon-Fri schedule is roughly as follows:

4:50am – Wake up.
5am – Coffee.
6am – Ride to work.
7am – Coffee and toast.
7am to 12noon – 1 or 2 bits of fruit, couple of handfuls of nuts.
12 noon to 5pm – Same again, but maybe more toast/microwaves potatoes with cheese/toasted sammiges.
5pm to 6:30pm – ride home/training (more snacks whilst riding).
7pm – Large meal for dinner including bulk carbs and desert.
9pm - Bed

Looking at it written down, I can see that it is pretty ****. I am thinking that I should start consuming a protein shake in the afternoon and then again before bed. Do you think this would be suffice?

My weekends are fine, and I usually eat A LOT. I love my steaks/salads/veggies. I actually like to cook, and do most of the cooking at home. As a result it should be easier to introduce anything new into the meal routines.

I am not too sure what superfoods/supps I should indulge in that will help with bulk but not turn me ‘skinny fat’ either. I also have a sensitive stomach which sucks (probably stress related, but not much I can do about that).

Given the number of members on this forum, I am pretty sure that I am not the only one in this boat, so would be great if others could share their tips and secrets in how to maintain their weight. 

Cheers


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## axisofoil (Aug 21, 2012)

So you're trying to maintain lean mass? Have to work the muscles you want to keep. Use it or lose it. 

For me, biking doesn't work my upper body too much. Especially not on the road. So, maybe a gym membership?

Extra protein should help slow the muscle leeching, but exercising those muscles is a sure fire way to make sure you're body prioritizes the protein from the shake instead of the ones from your chest. 

________________ 
Sent while "Flying, without style" Via tapatalk.


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## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

Ideally I would like to get back up to the 80-82kg (180 pound) mark.

A gym membership sounds like it might be worth looking into, especially now that the competing season is done and dusted until 2013.

The only issue I can see with this is that wouldnt I loose more weight from working the gym given my current active lifestyle?

I suspect that I am currently burning more than I am putting in, and given that I cant sit down and have a big lunch at work, pumping in as much in the afternoons/evenings seems to be my only option. 

I am just not too sure what I should be consuming to put some of this weight back on and then keep it on, and still remaining 'healthy'.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

I would say something to eat with your 5am coffee would be the first thing to add in. 
Since you are obviously on a time constraint, a ready to drink shake or protein bar would be fine. 

Also, yes, I would probably add something to eat before bed. 
Possibly another shake. Using casein protein at night is preferred but if you follow a vegan diet it won't fit.

Also I would alternate weight training in 2 or 3 days a week.
Many different types of weight routines depending on what you want to achieve. 
Personally I just do full body weight training twice a week but my goals are to just stay healthier and not get too skinny. Also don't skip legs just because you cycle. 
Your cycling will benefit from additional weigh training. I just don't hit them as hard. 

My sample week lately has been 
Mon - full body weight training
Tues - off
Wed - Cycle 
Thurs - Off
Fri - full body weight training
Sat - Cycle 
Sun - Cycle 

My Saturday ride I usually try and push and see exactly how much I can do. 
Also, I stay pretty active with my job.

Don't worry about weight training making you skinnier. as you will be removing some of your cardio. Also, you will be adding additional calories in if you eat more. 

My sample meal is 

Breakfast - Egg White Omelette with cheese and turkey sausage or ham. Toast w, fruit spread
2nd meal - Bar or Protein shake
Lunch - Turkey sand with fruit
4th meal - bar or protein shake
Dinner - Lean meat (Fish, bison, chicken, turkey) and healthy carb choices
6th meal - Shake with Casein Protein powder 

Again, many diet and exercise routines, this is just works for me.

BTW, I work out at the house, 
I have pull up tower/dip station, a bench, and a set of bowflex 552 dumbbells. 
I can pretty much hit every muscle with this simple set up.


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## axisofoil (Aug 21, 2012)

Grinderz said:


> The only issue I can see with this is that wouldnt I loose more weight from working the gym given my current active lifestyle?
> 
> I suspect that I am currently burning more than I am putting in, and given that I cant sit down and have a big lunch at work, pumping in as much in the afternoons/evenings seems to be my only option.


Funny thing about the human body... it can adjust its efficiency levels to use more/less calories for a given activity level. But it also adjusts your muscle mass and types to compensate for the activities you do.

So weight training at the gym to bulk up your upper body may cause you to use more energy, but your body will likely do it more efficiently and eventually burn less calories (Hence why going to the gym alone will not solve most people's struggles with too much weight). For you, this would likely mean additional muscle mass where you want it (whatever parts you work out regularly) with less force-feeding yourself.

My 'basal metabolic rate' is something in the range of 3000-3500 calories per day... which is to say, I'm a 20-something male with an athletic build in the "football player" shape (Notice that lifestyle doesn't come into this, so activity SHOULD increase that number). BUT, I consume roughly 2200 calories on the average day and still have trouble losing weight. Long story short, food calories consumed and calories burnt in order to put out a certain amount of work (also measurable in calories) aren't all equivalent measures.


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## MX283 (Apr 15, 2010)

In my opinion you are eating too often and eating too many carbs. It's not simply about calories in and calories out. The type of food you eat (fat, protein, carb) and when you eat triggers different hormonal responses in your body. Try eating carbs only later in the day and stick with protein, fat, and veggies earlier in the day. Look into the renegade diet, warrior diet, and paleo diet. It will sound very strange at first but give it a try.

In addition you should add in some weight training (2-3x a week will do) as it's difficult to retain muscle and reach your optimum body composition through cycling alone. Keep it simple with exercises such as deadlift, squat, overhead press, pull up/chin up, rows, bench press, dips, and run some sprints (with your feet not on your bike)!!!


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

IMO you're not getting enough protein in your diet to recover. You need to get more lean, high protein in your diet like turkey, tuna, chicken. Its no wonder why you're losing muscle mass. Protein repairs and builds new muscle.

Also, by not eating first thing in the moring, your just destroying your muscle. You need to fuel your muscle right away since you've been absent without food for over 8 hours (typically)


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## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

Cheers for the info.

For dinner I do usually eat a steak/chicken/some of the kind of protein, along with a large salad and some kind of carbs. 

Carbs can be anything from a veggie rice mix, spuds, fresh bread.

If its not meat and salad, it is a curry or asian orientated dish.

Eating before stepping into the office really isnt an option for me, mainly because all of my time before this is spent getting ready for work (not that long) and then helping the wife out with the girls (we have twin girls).

I did pick up a tub of protein powder on the way home from work last night. Had a shake as soon as I got in through the door, and then another before bed.

Mixed it with water and then forced it down. Not the nicest tasting stuff, but no different than the stuff I force feed myself on the bike during a ride/training session.

I am not too sure if its just a mental thing or if its related to the protein at all, but I did wake feeling 'content', however I also seem to have pretty bad gas.
- Hopefully the latter will sort itself out before too many people come into the office today.


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## durianrider (Mar 16, 2009)

Protein builds muscle? lol!

So eating 400g of protein a day = 400g of muscle growth a day?

interesting theory.

To the OP, you are same height as Andy Schleck approx. He is about 63kg. Im 183cm and 65kg.

If you want to perform better on the bike you could still drop 10kg remember.

If you want to perform like a cyclist then you got to eat and train like one. High carb, low fat low protein consistent easy mileage with a 1hr hit out on the weekends.

If you want to look like a body builder then ditch the bike and load up the salt, creatine, fat, animal protein etc to give you that fake muscle puffy look that you see in most of the gyms today. You could easily put on 15kg by the end of the year.


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## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks for the contribution durianrider.
I am not looking at building bulk muscle, but I do want to have a body shape that looks proportional.

At my current weight I already have lean muscle mass/very little body fat. If I get sick, I drop even more weight and it takes me a while to put it back on again.

65kg with my frame would make me look really really sick. I think even if I dropped maybe 4-5kg would be worrisome to be honest - hence the reason for this thread.

I suppose different frame types can get away with being different weights and still look fine


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Grinderz said:


> Eating before stepping into the office really isnt an option for me, mainly because all of my time before this is spent getting ready for work (not that long) and then helping the wife out with the girls (we have twin girls).


Have some ready to drink shakes in the fridge. 
It only takes a minute to drink one.

If that doesn't suffice, you only need to wake a few minutes earlier. 
It takes me maybe 15 minutes to make an egg white omelette and toast a whole wheat bagel and consume it.



Grinderz said:


> I am not too sure if its just a mental thing or if its related to the protein at all, but I did wake feeling 'content', however I also seem to have pretty bad gas.
> - Hopefully the latter will sort itself out before too many people come into the office today.


Doesn't matter if you feel content or not. 
After that long stretch without eating you need to get something in you.



durianrider said:


> Protein builds muscle? lol!
> 
> So eating 400g of protein a day = 400g of muscle growth a day?
> 
> interesting theory.


I don't think anyone is trying to say that, but yes you need protein to build muscle mass. I think as a trainer though, you know that.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Grinderz said:


> My current Mon-Fri schedule is roughly as follows:
> 
> 4:50am - Wake up.
> 5am - Coffee.
> ...


Well, I didn't read throu all the post so I'm sorry if I repeat stuff, and the simple basic gist of it is you have to eat more. The timing of food is just as important as amount in terms of whether it gets stored or used for muscles.

When you wake you're in fasting mode from not eating all night so eat asap and definitely before you ride to work to avoid cutting into stores and consuming muscle as energy.
Always eat some protein at around a 4:1 carb/protein ratio within an hour after exercise.
It's best to get calories from real food but in this case protein powder can help big time. I wouldn't have more than 2 a day and the best time for whey is when you wake, or after exercise, and the best time for casein is before bed or if your not going to eat for more than 3 hours.
Eat more carbs and protein. The more complex the carb, the longer and more steady it's delivery.
When you have time like on the weekends or at night prepare your food for the coming days. Don't just make 1 meal, make more so you can take some with you. 
Get yourself a lunch box with ice packs to travel with. 
Drink more milk during the day and with meals, and cottage cheese is a great before bed snack.

Oh, and mix your powder with milk for more calories, maybe blend in a banana and/or some berries too, and also for most the gas problems go away after a few weeks.


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## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

Cheers for the post. Unfortunately milk doesn't really agree with me, but will see how we go with eating before heading into work.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm doing pretty much the same: I'm 189 cm tall and weigh 72 kg. I feel great and I'm a relentless rider, but I'd like to get more strength to push the pedals harder in case I'm about to stall on the trail. Also I feel that I'm generally too weak to properly control the bike - with my height the bikes are larger and have longer wheelbases, which makes the situation worse. Improving technique has helped, but I'm sure some strength and weight will also help to show the bike who's boss.

My plan at the moment is gym four times a week (one day for the legs), cottage cheese, tuna and all that jazz. The HR manager at my work is also a qualified gym instructor and he's helping me out with a personalized training program and diet.

Despite all the tips in this thread I think you'd benefit greatly from discussing your situation and goals with a professional. The biggest question mark I'd put on the fact that you can't manage to eat a decent lunch. Being as you are committing to hard work and lots of effort to shape your body, is that really an obstacle you are unable to handle? I'd give a second thought to the idea of eating a good lunch, even if it's hard to arrange.


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## Lance Armstrong (Nov 17, 2012)

I race XC in the highest level for Juniour category. I never work out my upperbody, yet have incredibly defined good size arms, and a six pack. Trust me the bike will do its work and you'll end up looking fine. I suggest downloading an app like calorie counter for your phone and you can keep track of how much you've eaten and used up. I'm 5,8 and only 130 lbs. by the way. However eating lots of carbs will help you meet energy requirements and keep you bulked up.


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## XCProphet (Aug 23, 2005)

I totally understand your weight and time issue

Some breafast tips:
1) Get a 2 cup glass microwavable dish with lid, and pop eggs in with or without yolks, stir crazy for one minute and microwave 1minute with a loose lid.

2) Mix up your cereal...50/50 TOTAL & Multi-Grain Cheerios

3) Avocado & tuna, with light shredded cheese on a toasted muffin

4) Greek yogurt

5) Check the powerbar recipes! Best Homemade Powerbar Recipes - Mtbr Forums


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Grinderz said:


> When I started competing I weighed 86kg (190 pounds). As of last week, I weight 78kg (171 pounds). My height is 186cm (6.1 feet).
> 
> Given my current work/life balance, I would really like to find a way to increase intake outside of work hours.
> 
> ...


without a more complete H&P and labs it's a little difficult to give more specific recommendations, but you've provided enough to cover the generalities.

to begin with keep in mind that not all body types and metabolisms are the same. some are simply genetically lean, which it sounds like you may lean toward. (no pun intended) if that's the case and you're not seeing an increase in upper body mass despite working out you may be what is known in body building as a "hard gainer". google that and adopt some of the upper body exercises for increasing mass.

next, your intake schedule is upside down. the bulk of your food intake should be in the morning, preferably about 20 minutes after 16oz of water (stimulates digestive juices and promotes digestion) so move your 7pm up to your 5am. you are causing a lot of your weight loss by not fueling up in the morning. it doesn't count if you "make up for it" on the weekends, as that's now how the body works -- especially if you're genetically lean.

also, increase your food intake during the day as well. for example either more fruit/veggies at lunch or an avocado sammitch on whole wheat bread. another good thing to make in bulk is beans/rice, which provide a complete protein (rice has 17 amino acids, beans 5) and provides complex carbs as well. make this in bulk on the weekend and keep it in the fridge then take a cup in a container with you to work for lunch. also think about making this part of your breakfast routine as well.

some other things you could cook in bulk on the weekend to eat during the week are quinoa, lentles, barley, and tabbouleh. perhaps get a dehydrator and dry your own fruits and veggies. be sure not to dry them over 115 degrees. anything above that begins to destroy the nutrient content. i generally do mine at 110 just to be safe. if you do this DO NOT get the round tray stackable type but rather get a 9 tray excaliber with a timer. dried fruits are super high in nutrition, are easily portable without getting smooshed, and have an insanely long shelf life. i had a 4runner that was just sitting around for a few years and when i sold it last year was cleaning it out. found a ziplock of dried strawberries under the seat from a biking road trip in 2006 (5 years old) and they were just as tasty as the day i made them.

the other benefit of drying your own fruits/veggies is you don't get the sulpher dioxide and other additives like sugar and colors.

if you do protein shakes i'd recommend avoid whey protein and stick to plant based proteins like rice or soy. don't let anyone tell you that you can't meet your protein needs without animal products as that's simply not the case at all. it is comically easy to meet all your protein/carb needs through a plant based diet.

i know you like your steaks and so forth, so i'm not necessarily trying to dissuade you from that to a vegan diet, just saying that the bulk of your diet already seems to be plant based so you don't need to ADD animal sources simply to "make up" something. in other words, you're not failing to gain because you're deficient in animal protein. also, with a sensitive stomach fruits and veggies will be much less likely to exacerbate irritation and you'll avoid the other pitfalls of consuming animal flesh/protein..

ideally it's best not to eat after 5-6 pm, and it sounds like you're pretty much close to that. the GI system, just like the rest of the body, needs to rest and recuperate too. this is also part of the reason your eating schedule is upside down as you're eating a huge meal at night. it's best to eat a large meal of fruits at night because they digest the easiest and fasted.

also, eating too close to bedtime inhibits the reconstructive work of the body rather than helping it. provided adequate nutrition is consumed during the day the body has plenty of stores to rebuild, repair, rejuvenate during sleep. loading up with protein or anything heavy just prior to bedtime is a recipe for heart burn, insufficient sleep, and a host of other problems.

lastly, and you may not like this one, is coffee. caffeine is a vasoconstrictor, does not offer any nutritional value, and has detrimental effects on the cardiovascular and other bodily systems. epidemiological, clinical, and lab studies have linked caffeine to heart disease, pancreatic cancer, bladder cancer, hypoglycemia, and central nervous system disorders. it would be ideal for a hard gainer to exclude coffee from their diet for this and because it's a stimulant that increases the resting metabolic rate. caffeine if also an irritant to the stomach as well, which may further be exacerbating your stomach issues.

if you're drinking it just for the taste there are beverages like roma which taste like coffee but have no caffeine or other irritants/detriments and come along with coffee.

a really great book on caffeine is the truth about caffeine by marina kushner. isbn 978-0-9747582-4-4

to summarize:

1. eat biggest meal in the morning
2. make foods in bulk to eat throughout the week
3. don't eat late in the evening
4. investigate some "hard gainer" mass building techniques
5. add dehydrated fruits/veggies to your diet for ease of portability
6. reduce or cut out caffeine
7. avoid or greatly limit animal based sources of protein 
8. don't try to "make up" nutrition by gorging on the weekends

hope that'll help with your goals.


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## argibson (Jul 30, 2010)

Agreed, 171 isn't too light for 6'1". I too am this height and am competitive in cat 1....around 170 at peak, and often think losing 5 would increase performance. 

Your body will tell you when you need to eat by triggering hunger and feelings of fatigue. If you are tired and not recovering well, then eat more

I generally stay away from lots of carbs, and focus on healthy proteins. Sweet potatoes for carbs. A protein shake right after workouts is a good idea.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Monogod, you say it's hard to give recommendations and then go on? While I agree with most or some of your advice, don't eat big meals late in the day?, don't gorge on the weekends? For someone looking to gain weight why not? That's just silly talk. Won't even get into why you think he should avoid animal nutrition, but more fruit? His diet is clearly lacking, especially protein, except for his only "big" meal of the day, and since proteins get used up within a few hours more fruit isn't doing much for his active lifestyle. But yeah, it's a good idea to talk to hard gainers that have had success.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Monogod, you say it's hard to give recommendations and then go on?


no... what i said is "_without a more complete H&P and labs it's a little difficult to give *more specific* recommendations, *but you've provided enough to cover the generalities*._".



theMeat said:


> While I agree with most or some of your advice, don't eat big meals late in the day?, don't gorge on the weekends? For someone looking to gain weight why not? That's just silly talk.


why not? well, big meals late in the day interrupts sleep and body repair, unnecessarily burdens the GI system, and leads to putting on useless fat. this is a well known, proven, and accepted basic axiom in nutrition.

rule #1 in assessment is LISTEN TO THE PATIENT.

he stated he has a sensitive stomach. eating late in the evening and gorging can exacerbate stomach upset and irritation and promote GERD. so i'd counter that telling someone who's reported having a sensitive stomach to each really late at night or to gorge at any time is just silly talk.

eating a big meal late in the day will do nothing to help him gain mass. there is a difference from gaining weight due to fat increase (which eating late at night and gorging on weekends will do) and increasing lean mass (which is the result or increased muscle).

from what i read he wasn't asking merely how to increase numbers on a scale but rather how to increase his lean muscle mass to become more proportionate. (when all else fails, listen to the patient)

if one just wants to increase the number on the scale then down a pint of haagen-dazs 4 times a day and load up on all the processed foods and cheeses possible. however, if one wants to put on lean mass, particularly if they are a hard gainer, then proper nutrition intake (including meal times) is vital.



theMeat said:


> Won't even get into why you think he should avoid animal nutrition,


since you brought it up we can touch on it briefly...

animal sources of protein are inferior to plant sources, cause the body to become more acidic (diseases like cancer thrive in an acidic environment), are accompanied by saturated fats and animal cholesterol (detrimental to the body - CV disease), and are harder to digest than plant based proteins. again, he stated he has a sensitive stomach, and animal based proteins will often exacerbate stomach and GI irritation whereas plant based proteins will not.

add to that the fact that "lean" sources of animal flesh are only slightly (rather than substantially) lower in fats and cholesterol than the "regular" sources.

and i could go into a great deal more detail, but i think that will suffice for now unless you'd like to discuss further.



theMeat said:


> but more fruit? His diet is clearly lacking, especially protein, except for his only "big" meal of the day, and since proteins get used up within a few hours more fruit isn't doing much for his active lifestyle.


how did you ascertain his diet is "clearly lacking especially in protein"? H&P? labs? CMP? or merely by one post on an interweb forum? did he complain of weakness, general malaise, or chronic exhaustion? (all are S/S of inadequate diet) did anything he related suggest anemia? (no)

rule #1.

perhaps he's simply genetically lean and is just losing extraneous body fat due to exercise. judging from the info he's given this is the most likely scenario.

regarding protein perhaps you missed my suggestion to make beans/rice in bulk on the weekend to eat during the week? and to consider adding things to his diet like quinoa, lentles, barley, and tabbouleh which also are protein sources?

why more fruit? simple. your body runs on carbs, not protein. so given his active lifestyle increasing fruit intake is a rock solid recommendation. fruits are super high in carbs to provide energy for the human machine. so even if your NANDA of "inadequate nutrition, less than body requirements" were correct more fruit would be one of the first interventions, not more protein.

however, without assuming your NANDA, in general fruit is the best way to boost energy throughout the day due to the natural sugar and healthy carb content, not to mention the host of other nutrients that fuel the body.

fruit is loaded with vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and fiber. apricots have iron, 55g carbs (per cup, dried), and are loaded with fiber. prunes and dried pears also high in iron, carbs, and fiber. bananas have 27g carbs and 450mg of potassium (med. size). mango has 25g/cup carbs while the average orange about 18g carbs.

addtionally, per rule #1 he reported a sensitive stomach and fruits are very easy on the stomach because they digest easily and rapidly.

considering the physiology of the body and nutritional makeup of fruit i'd suggest the answer to "why more fruit" is crystal clear.

he stated he has a hard time finding time for a real lunch (rule #1) hence my suggestion to look into a dehydrator to make taking fruit along for a quick snack more viable. dried fruit is way easier to transport and store than fresh while maintaining all its qualities if properly dried.

so given the information at hand i'd say putting his main meal at the beginning of the day (basic axiom of nutrition) including complete protein/carb sources (i.e. beans/rice) while increasing fruit consumption throughout the day (to provide adequate energy and prevent ketosis) then avoid late eating and gorging while limiting animal-based protein sources (reduce stomach irritation) is very, very sound and solid advice.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Monogod, that's why I said I agree with most or some of your post. Guessing what makes his stomach react is just that. I'd guess it has more to do with going long stretches without food. Eating before bed, as long as you're not having Thanksgiving sized meals shouldn't be a problem either. As well as gaining some storage to be burned, which he certainly is, is a good idea too. 

Comes down to simple math. You mention apricots. Ok, without googling it I'd say it's safe to say that they are amount the fruits with the highest fat and protein content. Yet how many apricots would he have to eat to equal 1 chicken breast? 30? 50? How bout 1 peanutbutter n jelly on whole wheat?, prolly around the same right. Which would you say would be a better choice given his time restraints, or better for his stomach?

His stomach issues may be something simple like he's drinking too much water with meals and diluting his enzymes too much when they're needed for digestion. Maybe he should just drink less with meals and more in between but again, that's just a guess.

I ascertained his diet from him laying it out in black and white, as well as his goals and exercise routine.
I could go on with some scientific mumbo jumbo about how and what carbs and protein do, but don't think that'll help anyone, and my ego doesn't need any help either so I'll pass, but as a former hard gainer myself, i'm just throwing out some maybe helpful to him info, and I'm ok if we don't agree on all of it.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Monogod, that's why I said I agree with most or some of your post. Guessing what makes his stomach react is just that. I'd guess it has more to do with going long stretches without food.


except that he doesn't. he stated he snacks frequently throughout the day, though he does start off a little light. rule #1.

rule #2 in making an assessment is never assume (guess) anything.

also, i noticed previously you stated "_Well, I didn't read throu all the post_" yet you proceeded to diagnose and make suggestions. again, rules #1&2.

further more, you seem to condemn guessing so why engage in it? 

i'm not trying to engage you in a flame/snark war (nor do i see your response as such) so please don't perceive this as such either. that kind of romper room stuff stays in the OC. this is a legitimate discussion about legitimate questions and information provided and i believe it's appropriate to voice concern that you've not even bothered to read someone's post yet made numerous guesses and assumptions to arrive at the advice you're giving. imho that's careless and reckless. again, rules #1&2.



theMeat said:


> Eating before bed, as long as you're not having Thanksgiving sized meals shouldn't be a problem either. As well as gaining some storage to be burned, which he certainly is, is a good idea too.


eating before going to bed is not a good idea period. as the numerous reasons have already been covered and as it's a basic axiom of nutrition and physiology i'll not waste time and space repeating them.



theMeat said:


> Comes down to simple math. You mention apricots. Ok, without googling it I'd say it's safe to say that they are amount the fruits with the highest fat and protein content. Yet how many apricots would he have to eat to equal 1 chicken breast? 30? 50? How bout 1 peanutbutter n jelly on whole wheat?, prolly around the same right. Which would you say would be a better choice given his time restraints, or better for his stomach?


sounds like you didn't bother to read my whole post either, yet are attempting to respond to it and counter the information you think it provided.

the reason i say this is because had you actually read the post you'd see that apricots were NEVER suggested as a source of fat or protein. not reading the post is the only viable explanation as to why you're attempting to compare apricots with chicken. 

further, it is more important to eat CARBS than protein during the day for energy because carbs are the body's main source of energy. period. there's really no arguing that one, is there? that's physiology 101.

so which is better to eat during the day for energy? apricots.

one of the protein sources i mentioned was beans and rice. which is better to eat to satisfy protein requirements between beans and rice and chicken? beans and rice.

since "why" was covered previously i'll simply refer to you the previous post rather than elucidate yet again.



theMeat said:


> His stomach issues may be something simple like he's drinking too much water with meals and diluting his enzymes too much when they're needed for digestion. Maybe he should just drink less with meals and more in between but again, that's just a guess.


more guessing. he stated he has a sensitive stomach. you're adding in everything else. rules #1&2.

irrespective of that, however, such a scenario would be highly unlikely. rather than guess lets take a look at the "scientific mumbo jumbo".

according to gastroenterologist micheal f. picco, md, from the mayo clinic:

_There's no concern that water will dilute the digestive juices or interfere with digestion. In fact, *drinking water during or after a meal can actually improve digestion*. Water and other liquids help break down the food in your stomach and keep your digestive system on track.​_source

even drinking a couple of glasses of water one would only slightly dilute stomach acid and enzymes but will not interfere with digestion. in fact, water will only dilute the stomach acids and enzymes, not neutralize them. it would take a base to do that. so the reality is that one would have to drink obscenely copious amounts of water with meals before any ill-effect on digestion would be noted.

since i don't have the time or inclination to log into pubmed right now and post a ton of "scientific mumbo jumbo" to back this up hopefully hearing from a gastroenterologist will suffice.



theMeat said:


> I could go on with some scientific mumbo jumbo about how and what carbs and protein do, but don't think that'll help anyone, and my ego doesn't need any help either so I'll pass, but as a former hard gainer myself, i'm just throwing out some maybe helpful to him info, and I'm ok if we don't agree on all of it.


for one thing this isn't about ego. it's about giving accurate and helpful advice.

for another, the "scientific mumbo jumbo" about carbs/protein will absolutely help. cliff notes version: carbs for energy. protein for cell repair/production.

this scientific mumbo jumbo will help those who are reading eroneous advice to up their protein intake for increased energy. knowing the "scientific mumbo jumbo" behind carbs/protein helps to delineate good advice from bad. it helps to give good advice not bad. and i'm ok with not agreeing on things, but if we don't agree on some really foundational stuff like carb/protein, eating times, and other physiology 101 stuff i'm going to gently and politely (as i think i've done here) provide proper and accurate advice.

if you're a hard gainer too then perhaps share some mass building techniques with him. i'm not an expert on body building per se but i do know generalities that hard gainer routines are significantly different from regular gainer and easy gainer routines. good chance you're more of an authority there than i.

but with all due respect, and for reasons clearly stated, the nutritional advice you've shared simply isn't on par with known and accepted axioms of diet, nutrition, and physiology. opinions are one thing, facts are another. again take nothing personal, as it's said with all due respect and with no personal slant, affront, attack, flame, or snark.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow, first, for someone who says I'm assuming things, you're assuming alot about my opinion, posts and otherwise. As an example I said I didn't read all the posts but did read all of op's. If I may make another example, using that example, because you think or want to be right, and can point to some facts that make it seem that way, that doesn't always make it right. Clever sure, but not always right. Read on, you'll see my point.

Next, I'll apologize now for not responding to your post in the order you wrote it, but all the topics I feel are worthwhile will be covered.

I never said carbs don't provide energy ever, nope, not once. As a matter of fact I suggested he eat more carbs and protein. I will say ingested protein only lasts a few hours no matter what, where unlike protein, carbs, especially more complex carbs, can possibly last all day, or at least until they're all used up . Yeah that's 101

Just about every hard gainer I know or have known eats before bed to gain period. 

Because you can site a MD that says water doesn't dilute digestive enzymes means squat, you don't have to believe me just google it. Althou I don't see any sense in debating a "guess", maybe you'll learn something that seems like common sense, pretty basic, and understandable.

Apricots where brought up by you. Now in hindsight I'm guessing probably because you know they have more protein than most, if not all fruit, which isn't saying much. Regardless, I said fat and protein because althou you're right about op lacking am nutrition, it's more than just a "little light", it's more like non existent, except for some carbs. As a hard gainer fat, I'm guessing that because I don't know what type of nuts, and protein definitely, is what his diet, as outlined by him, is seriously lacking. You read his diet and activities, do you think he's eating even 50% of the protein he needs to gain or even sustain? I think we both agree that his timing is off, and I say, and it's true, that it's especially true for his protein. He should be shooting for at least 1, probably better to do 1 1/2 grams if he's a real hard gainer of protein per pound of body weight per day. I know alot of people would disagree with that, but talk to a hardgainer who's added lean muscle and you'll understand that it's the way to go and what works. IDK call me funny that way, I tend to listen to people that've had success to find what works, and guess what, I found it works for me too.
Any theory, idea or method can be picked apart with scientific "mumbo jumbo", and then there's what's been proven to work. 

Snacking on some nuts and fruit is hardly eating, and again I'd say that if he's drinking lotsa water with meals, and going all day without a proper meal, that could be all or most of the problem. He should also have some tests done to see what food allergies he might have. Some people also have more problems digesting many different foods at once.

So what have I learned? You are a man (oops I'm guessing again) of many rules? Rule #1, rule #2, heck, your sig is even a rule. I don't like rules and think they are made to be broken, and proven wrong or stupid over time, but if I did, I'd have to make this one rule #1, don't disagree with Monogod, LOL, because man, he can type a response that'll either dazzle you with brilliance, or baffle you with bullsh!t or a bit of both i'm not sure. So again, I was just putting out some info that is pretty tried and true for a hard gainer, whether or not you agree, and I gotta give you this..... You can really make yourself sound smart and make some well thought out methodical posts, and I enjoy and am honered that you care to debate with me, but arguing about rice and beans or apricots I just don't see as worth the bandwidth. And since it's just you and I who seems to care at this point I'll just say peace my brother, and let's see where this thread goes.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

monogod said:


> animal sources of protein are inferior to plant sources, cause the body to become more acidic (diseases like cancer thrive in an acidic environment), are accompanied by saturated fats and animal cholesterol (detrimental to the body - CV disease), and are harder to digest than plant based proteins. again, he stated he has a sensitive stomach, and animal based proteins will often exacerbate stomach and GI irritation whereas plant based proteins will not.


I take exception to this. Saturated fats and animal cholesterol's link to cardiovascular disease has been broken for a while now.

You also forgot to mention that rice and beans also raise the blood acidity level. How dare protein sources contain amino acids!

I would agree with Meat that if you want to build some more muscle, see what the bodybuilders are doing.

A few comments for the OP:
You might want to do some reading on Intermittent fasting, catabolism, and human growth hormone. One such site is leangains. I'm not telling you to do intermittent fasting, but in the reading, you will see a lot of myths get dispelled regarding muscle deterioration, etc.

That protein shake probably gave you problems because it had whey protein concentrate, which includes fat and lactose, as opposed to whey protein isolate, which has those components removed. If you don't buy into the intermittent fasting stuff (and it seems like you don't need to anyway), then a whey protein shake in the morning and casein shake in the evening is a pretty common thing bodybuilders do.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Wow, first, for someone who says I'm assuming things, you're assuming alot about my opinion, posts and otherwise. As an example I said I didn't read all the posts but did read all of op's. If I may make another example, using that example, because you think or want to be right, and can point to some facts that make it seem that way, that doesn't always make it right. Clever sure, but not always right. Read on, you'll see my point.


no, you did not say you hadn't read through all the posts but did read the OP's. i cut and pasted what you wrote, which was, "Well, I didn't read throu all the post".

so you see i didn't assume anything. i quoted you.

for some reason your m.o. is to argue against things i never said, and i've demonstrated that numerous times. in my assumption that you didn't read my posts in their entirety i was giving you the benefit of the doubt since the only other options are 1.) you lack the comprehension skills to understand what you're reading; or 2.) you're just being a richard and arguing for the sake of being argumentative.

further, it's not about me or you being right, it's about solid advice. you're not giving it and you keep demonstrating that you don't even understand what i'm saying either -- to the extent that much of what you're arguing against are basic axioms and well established facts rather than simply my opinions and/or theories.



theMeat said:


> Just about every hard gainer I know or have known eats before bed to gain period.


logical fallacy -- appeal to popularity.

if eating a couple of hours before bed this practice is ok if it's not carbs/sugars, but eating just prior to bed hinders sleep and has other detrimental effects on the body. period. already gone through them so i won't waste the time or space to again.



theMeat said:


> Because you can site a MD that says water doesn't dilute digestive enzymes means squat, you don't have to believe me just google it. Althou I don't see any sense in debating a "guess", maybe you'll learn something that seems like common sense, pretty basic, and understandable.


logical fallacy -- strawman. you seem to like to argue lots of things i don't say and counter facts not presented in evidence.

strawman #1: "MD that says water doesn't dilute digestive enzymes".

FACT: no where did either i or the quote i provided say that. he said, "_There's no concern that water will dilute the digestive juices or interfere with digestion._"

in other words, it's an invalid concern. he did not say it would not dilute it, but rather being concerned about diluting it to the point were digestion is hampered is not a valid concern.

strawman #2: it is my position that water will not dilute stomach acids/enzymes.

FACT: i never said, nor implied, nor could any reasonable sane person infer that water doesn't dilute digestive juices. in fact, i stated that it WOULD dilute them when i said this, "_even drinking a couple of glasses of water one *would only slightly dilute stomach acid* and enzymes but will not interfere with digestion. in fact, *water will only dilute the stomach acids* and enzymes, not neutralize them. it would take a base to do that. so the reality is that one would have to drink obscenely copious amounts of water with meals before any ill-effect on digestion would be noted._"

so yet again you're arguing against a point i never made. there are lots of good snarky comments i could sling here in response to yours about "maybe i'll learn something common sense" but i'll refrain for now. but keep poking the bee hive and some bees just might come out... 



theMeat said:


> Apricots where brought up by you.


yes. but not in the context you quoted me or continually try to force it into. again, go back and read the posts. i'll not waste the time or space to clarify YET AGAIN the context of mentioning apricots. (hint: had nothing to do with protein as you keep insisting)



theMeat said:


> Now in hindsight I'm guessing probably because you know they have more protein than most, if not all fruit, which isn't saying much.


instead of guessing go back and read the post. i said nothing of the sort and their protein content was not mentioned, implied, or even hinted at. in fact, apricots were brought up for an ENTIRELY different context. why you continually try to bash a square peg into a round hole is beyond me.



theMeat said:


> Regardless, I said fat and protein because althou you're right about op lacking am nutrition, it's more than just a "little light", it's more like non existent, except for some carbs. As a hard gainer fat, I'm guessing that because I don't know what type of nuts, and protein definitely, is what his diet, as outlined by him, is seriously lacking. You read his diet and activities, do you think he's eating even 50% of the protein he needs to gain or even sustain?


protein will not sustain if he is eating too few energy carbs. more 101. the body does not run on protein no matter how much you want it to or insist either overtly or covertly that it does.



theMeat said:


> Any theory, idea or method can be picked apart with scientific "mumbo jumbo", and then there's what's been proven to work.


the simple fact that you refer to repetitively proven and basic axioms of physiology and nutrition as "scientific mumbo jumbo" is both disturbing and very revealing.



theMeat said:


> So what have I learned? You are a man (oops I'm guessing again) of many rules? Rule #1, rule #2, heck, your sig is even a rule. I don't like rules and think they are made to be broken, and proven wrong or stupid over time


when it comes to providing patient care and performing assessments then yeah, i'm somewhat a man of rules because they're there for a reason. do you seriously think "listen to the patient" and "don't assume anything" while doing an assessment are stupid rules to be broken and proven wrong???? :skep: seriously???? so when you go to the dr. you want them to ignore you and just make assumptions??? i think not.

any doctor, nurse, dietician, PT, OT, SP, SK, LPC, etc. that ignores these basic rules and believes they should be bent and broken provides substandard care, is a serious risk (potentially lethal) to patients, and is a walking malpractice lawsuit waiting to be filed.

and although you seem clueless per the etiology of my sig, i'd suggest that's not a rule to be broken or bent either. :thumbsup:



theMeat said:


> but if I did, I'd have to make this one rule #1, don't disagree with Monogod, LOL, because man, he can type a response that'll either dazzle you with brilliance, or baffle you with bullsh!t or a bit of both i'm not sure.


perhaps you're not sure because you either don't read the posts or can't understand what you're reading? those are really the only two options for why you continually demonstrate little to no comprehension of what they say by wildly and randomly misquoting them.

i'm totally ok if you disagree with the information i've provided cuz i didn't make it up, come up with it, or claim it as wholly mine. so in the grand scheme of things you're not disagreeing with me at all.

ever heard of don quixote?



theMeat said:


> I gotta give you this..... You can really make yourself sound smart and make some well thought out methodical posts,


well, one does pick up a thing or two after studying, practicing, and giving classes/seminars on something for over 20 years. 



theMeat said:


> I enjoy and am honered that you care to debate with me, but arguing about rice and beans or apricots I just don't see as worth the bandwidth. And since it's just you and I who seems to care at this point I'll just say peace my brother, and let's see where this thread goes.


the biggest topic of our debate thus far is your constant misquoting and wildly incoherent comprehension of the information that's being provided. the vast majority of time i've spent responding to you has been correcting your erroneous assumptions, wildly errant miscomprehension, and wispy strawmen you keep setting up. it's like trying to herd cats.

this post is a perfect example. a bunch of wasted time pointing out the plethora of ways you've misquoted, made baseless errant assumptions, and argued points i never raised. if i didn't think fast and type fast i'd not even bother.

for that matter if it continues in this manner i'll not even bother responding further. when you don't respond to points made, make up strawmen, misquote, and just make up stuff it's merely gibberish rather than a reasoned coherent response. i'll take the time this time, but not again.

for example, the only reason we're still discussing apricots is because you seem to have no clue regarding the context in which i mentioned them despite it being very plain in the first post and then painfully clarified in the second. you compared them to chicken because you seem to think i mentioned them in the context of protein, and repeated it yet again in your last post then again in this post!  i haven't the slightest clue why you're so doggedly insistent to do this because absolutely nothing i've said even remotely suggests that i've connected apricots to protein or fat. 

we may be the only ones posting at this point, but there are many, many others reading it. for those following it i am providing foundational and supplemental information and facts so they can look at the information we've both provided and make an informed decision on the veracity of each.

perhaps i'm incorrect but it's beginning to seem like you're trying to make this personal rather than about valid vs. invalid information -- so how about taking nothing personal and keeping it information based rather than personality/ego based?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

beanbag said:


> I take exception to this. Saturated fats and animal cholesterol's link to cardiovascular disease has been broken for a while now.


i'd take exception to this. studies have routinely demonstrated the link between saturated fats (SF) from meat sources with increased risk of coronary vascular disease (CVD).

*Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2012 Oct 4. Diverse physiological effects of long-chain saturated fatty acids: implications for cardiovascular disease. Flock MR, Kris-Etherton PM.*

_Replacing saturated fatty acids with unsaturated fatty acids improves the blood lipid profile and *reduces cardiovascular disease risk*, although the benefits depend on the specific saturated fatty acid(s) being replaced._

----------------------------------------------------------

*Animal. 2011 Nov 11:1-9. Dietary fatty acids and cardiovascular disease. Salter AM.*

These recommendations were made largely on the basis of specific effects of these fatty acids on the risk of developing atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (CVD). The intervening years have seen a plethora of human epidemiological and intervention trials to further elucidate the specific relationship between dietary fatty acid intake, plasma lipids and lipoproteins and cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. A number of recent meta-analyses and systematic reviews have revisited the role of specific dietary fatty acid classes and CVD risk. In general, *these continue to support a link between saturated fatty acids (SFA) and CVD morbidity/mortality*.​
and...


"The most recent data suggest that replacing SFA with cis-PUFA (primarily linoleic acid) has the greatest impact on reducing CVD risk."​
more studies that have demonstrated a positive SFA to CVD relation:

Hu et al. (1999) Nurses' Health Study 
Hu et al. (1999) Nurses' Health Study 
Hu et al. (1997) Nurses' Health Study
Goldbourt et al. (1993) Israeli Ischemic Heart Disease Study
McGee et al. (1984) Honolulu Heart Program 
Keys et al. (1980) Seven Countries Study

i worked for 2 years on a post CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) stepdown unit where we got the folks that just got their chests cracked or had stints put in. care to hazard a guess as to what percentage of patients that came through had diets high in saturated fats and animal cholesterols? how about the percentage of vegetarians? percentage of vegans?

i'm not saying that no vegan or vegetarian has ever developed CVD but in the 2 years i worked that unit not a single vegetarian or vegan came through with a x1-x4 CABG or even a stint. not one. conversely 100% of the CABG and stint recipients had diets high in saturated fats and animal cholesterol.

their H&P's and labs indicated the number of grafts (1 to 4) generally seemed proportional to diet, with the higher ratios of animal based saturated fats to plant based sources receiving a higher number of grafts.

granted it's not a "controlled scientifical research project" but i'd suggest it still demonstrates strong empirical corollary evidence.



beanbag said:


> You also forgot to mention that rice and beans also raise the blood acidity level.


simply because it's not germane. although it does raise it somewhat there is no accompanyment of fats, cholesterol, etc. as with meat sources. and although it does raise it i've seen no evidence that demonstrates this increase is corollary to the increase caused by animal sources nor corollary to the resulting health issues. just the opposite, in fact.

similarly, animal cholesterols are not good for the body yet the cholesterol that our bodies produces does not effect the body in the same way.

populations whose staple diet is beans and rice with little meat/dairy intake do not show the same disease profiles (CVD, MI, TIA, cancers, etc.) as do populations with diets high in meat/dairy. in fact, the increase in occurrence of these diseases along with osteoporosis in populations is corollary to their consumption of meat/dairy.



beanbag said:


> How dare protein sources contain amino acids!


mentioned that in post #17



beanbag said:


> I would agree with Meat that if you want to build some more muscle, see what the bodybuilders are doing.


see #4 in the summary at the bottom of post 17.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Your posts are getting longer and longer, and much more defensive and personal. It makes you seem less right and more desperate to win, win what I'm not sure.. Reminds me of when Mike Tyson bit off Evander Holyfield's ear, just sayin. I mean if we're going to get personal than here's my take.....
Are you a 2 dollar defense lawyer or ambulance chaser? I ask because you seem to be a natural for taking some of the evidence to paint the whole picture. 
It's not about ego, I make it personal and am wildly incoherent? Really? Was Don Quixote a hard gainer too? Pot calling kettle black? I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I read your last post entirely. It reads like a resume that's filled with egotism and defensiveness, and since it has NO helpful info for anyone including op, it's like you just wanted to verbally masturbate all over this thread and are going to bring up anything and everything, or parts of it to be right. Don't listen to someone who's researched what most hard gainers do for success and used it with success, that would be silly. Just keep bringing up things that no one asked about, like cancer. Or tell op not to eat before bed because it disturbs his sleep, even thou he didn't once say he's having that problem. I know, rule # whateva, listen to the patient lol. Rule #2, do as I say not as i do, lol
So rather than pick throu your post and multi quote all the misleading statements you've made, in an attempt to seem righteous, I'll just take your very first statement which pretty much sums up the problem with your entire post.


monogod said:


> no, you did not say you hadn't read through all the posts but did read the OP's. i cut and pasted what you wrote, which was, "Well, I didn't read throu all the post".
> 
> so you see i didn't assume anything. i quoted you.


I said I didn't read all the previous posts, but I did read all of op's. You seem like at least a fairly smart guy so I'm sure you can grasp this one, ready? I read all of op's posts, but didn't read everyone else's. Do you get it now? Ok, one more time, I said I didn't read all the posts, I didn't say, because i actually did, read all of op's. Getting clearer now? They say the third time's a charm, I did read all of op's posts to try and get as much info as possible, but apologized for maybe repeating info that other members could have said. Especially since most, if not all of that info is what mostly everyone, except you, considers the way to go.

In closing of this dialogue I'll say that I've tried to get you to chime in on other posts because i was led to believe that you where an interesting guy with an open mind, but you always seemed too aloof, and wise to engage, which honestly just intrigued me more, now I've learned otherwise, and the later version of you is much less appealing.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Your posts are getting longer and longer, and much more defensive and personal.... ~irrelevant content snipped~


nope. just responding to THE ERRANT CONTENT of what you wrote and correcting things you wrongly attributed me saying and then argued against. the reason they're getting longer and longer is you're misquoting and misattributing more and more with each post. it's like you're on a crusade to knock down strawmen and joust windmills rather than have a coherent discussion relevant to statements and points actually being raised.

interesting you should begin a post that basically was directed at me personally rather than anything even remotely related to the thread with the first sentence quoted above....

i'll concede you made a typo by saying "post" instead of "posts". thanks for clarifying that. but i'll not bother responding to any of the rest of that post as it's clear you'd rather make this personal than pertain to the subject matter we were discussing.

cheers!


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

monogod said:


> i'd take exception to this. studies have routinely demonstrated the link between saturated fats (SF) from meat sources with increased risk of coronary vascular disease (CVD).


Studies also routinely show the other way, such as this meta-study here:

Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease

Background: A reduction in dietary saturated fat has generally been *thought* to improve cardiovascular health.

Objective: The objective of this meta-analysis was to summarize the evidence related to the association of dietary saturated fat with risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD; CHD inclusive of stroke) in prospective epidemiologic studies.

Design: Twenty-one studies identified by searching MEDLINE and EMBASE databases and secondary referencing qualified for inclusion in this study. A random-effects model was used to derive composite relative risk estimates for CHD, stroke, and CVD.

Results: During 5-23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke.* Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. *

*Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat. *

The studies you quoted from Hu, Goldbourt, McGee, and Keys all fall under this meta-study. The first two are newer than this.



> *Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2012 Oct 4. Diverse physiological effects of long-chain saturated fatty acids: implications for cardiovascular disease. Flock MR, Kris-Etherton PM.*
> 
> _Replacing saturated fatty acids with unsaturated fatty acids improves the blood lipid profile and *reduces cardiovascular disease risk*, although the benefits depend on the specific saturated fatty acid(s) being replaced._ ​




-Cannot read actual paper. The individual saturated fatty acids affect cholesterol levels. Some lower HDL, some raise HDL. If replacing SF with, for example O3 PUFA, showed positive results, that does not prove SF is bad, but rather salmon is good. Everybody already knows that. Also, the author assumes that cholesterol causes CVD, (hence use of the term "risk") which I don't agree with either. If that were true, then we should all take one-a-day statins to lower cholesterol and thus prevent CVD, right?

The other studies you mentiaon also show that there is a correlation btw cvd and cholesterol, or btw cvd and sf, but as well all know from rule #563, *correlation does not imply causation*.



> i worked for 2 years on a post CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) stepdown unit where we got the folks that just got their chests cracked or had stints put in. care to hazard a guess as to what percentage of patients that came through had diets high in saturated fats and animal cholesterols? how about the percentage of vegetarians? percentage of vegans?
> 
> i'm not saying that no vegan or vegetarian has ever developed CVD but in the 2 years i worked that unit not a single vegetarian or vegan came through with a x1-x4 CABG or even a stint. not one. conversely 100% of the CABG and stint recipients had diets high in saturated fats and animal cholesterol.


I bring up rule #563 again. I don't have a problem with your observations, but I can equally claim that "vegetarians eat more fruits and vegetables, which are rich in anti-oxidants that reduce inflammation and plaque build up. Meat eaters lead hedonistic lives which also includes smoking and drinking."



> granted it's not a "controlled scientifical research project" but i'd suggest it still demonstrates strong empirical corollary evidence.
> 
> populations whose staple diet is beans and rice with little meat/dairy intake do not show the same disease profiles (CVD, MI, TIA, cancers, etc.) as do populations with diets high in meat/dairy. in fact, the increase in occurrence of these diseases along with osteoporosis in populations is corollary to their consumption of meat/dairy.


Maybe the rice eaters were skinny asians toiling all day in the paddies, and the meat eaters were living hedonistic sedentary lifestyles.

Also, hot days cause drowning, and playing basketball makes you tall.

The fact is that humans have been eating SFs like animal and coconut for millions of years and so we are able to metabolize these without keeling over.​


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

beanbag, i'll certainly concede there are studies that show evidence for both sides of the argument and was certainly not arguing otherwise.

however, my point was not to prove absolute causation but rather to point out that the correlation between SF and CVD had not been irrefutably broken as you suggested it had been.

not entirely sure i agree with the broad generalization that "meat eaters are hedonistic smokers and drinkers", but i will certainly concede that exercise combined with an increased intake of fruits and veggies will certainly help to minimize and/or even counteract the damage correlary to meat intake. but isn't that just tacitly agreeing with my basic point? more veggies and less meat equals less CVD? hmmmmm.... for a second there it almost sounded like you were suggesting correlation implies causation.

additionally, those who take better care of themselves tend to eat less meat and ingest less animal based saturated fats period. again suggesting causation -- for both the detriments of meat and the benefits of high plant based intake. so in the grand scheme of things i'm not simply demonizing SF as the ONLY cause because there are clearly other coexisting causalities and co-morbidities.

however, if something is detremental it seems to me to be more prudent to excise it from the diet completely rather than take measures to reduce or counteract the detrimental effects -- especially when meat offers absolutely nothing beneficial or necessary to the human body that cannot be found in a wholly plant based diet.

regarding rule #563, i was not making a *** hoc ergo propter hoc or post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. i stated pointedly that it was not a scientifical study. while correlation does not _necessarily_ imply causation it does not mean that it never can.

corollary evidence such as in two years of working a post CABG unit without seeing a single vegetarian or vegan and the false cause fallacies you mentioned are not even remotely similar and comparison of the two would perhaps be a logical fallacy itself.

why? if i want to be tall will paying basketball do it? no. would it assist in any way, shape, or form to help me reach that goal? no.

conversely, if i want to stay out of a post CABG unit due to having a stint or x1-x4 graft would being a vegan do it? very likely. and though not wholly responsible would have a huge impact in helping me to attain that goal. in fact, if one was in a high risk category for ending up in a CABG unit and show pre-markers and preliminary occlusion going vegan could REVERSE this progression and alter the path leading to a CABG. this has been positively demonstrated and observed.

similarly, as i recall the SF in coconut is a medium chain fatty acid while the SF in meat is a long chain fatty acid. so i'd suggest the comparison of the two to be somewhat moot.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

OK, I see where you are coming from. You think that meat -> saturated fats and cholesterol -> increased blood cholesterol -> CVD, and certainly there are a lot of epidemiological (sp) studies that point this correlation out. However, I don't think anybody has found a direct metabolic pathway as to how the SF you eat ends up as arterial plaque. That's why it's only correlative and not causative.

Vegetarian and vegan diet can be healthy, but I don't think it is necessary (for the OP) to purposely restrict meat intake.

I come from a different camp (vaguely paleo-centric) that says cvd is due to inflammation and oxidized fats that are hanging off of your LDL's. (excuse me if I get some details wrong) In this case, SF's are good because they are very resistant to oxidative damage, and poly-unsaturated fats are bad because they oxidize easily. (i.e. people are dying off because of all the foods soaked in modern corn and soybean oils) Vegetables and fruit are protective partly because they have anti-oxidants, plus other nutrients that do this and that. But steak is not bad either. It is a highly nutritionally dense food with lots of protein and other nutrients that do this and that.

At least in this case, my views are backed up by various metabolic mechanisms as to how things work. People who are interested in finding out the non-botched version of what I wrote above can read the writing of Chris Masterjohn (daily lipid), Mark Sisson (Mark's daily apple), and Chris Kresser (Healthy Skeptic). 

Oh, also paleo diet is against rice and beans and grains. Just sayin'.

My only advice to the OP at this point is to not fear the meat and maybe try to fit in some more sources of omega 3's like salmon or pastured meat products. Watch out for the O6's in nuts. The veggies are there to protect you from the potato chips, and whatever you stir-fried up in "healthy" vegetable oil, not that delicious steak with a pat of grass-fed butter on top. (Slightly hyperbolically speaking)


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Good stuff Beanbag. Why avoid o6's of some nuts?


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## Grinderz (Aug 31, 2012)

When I started this thread I was looking for tips for helping with weight. I was not expecting a debate on which food types are better than others for things like heart disease, nor am I interested in any of this to be honest.

I am going to keep eating fruit/veg/salads/meat/fish/nuts/etc because I am a firm believer that you should enjoy what you eat. For the record, I eat meat approx 3 - 4 times per week. I also have a very active lifestyle, and I figured that I am already better off than those who sit in front of the TV eating McDonalds all day.

Reading through all of this, about 90% of the information within this thread is not going to help me put on a bit of weight/lean muscle. I am also aware that 'technically' I could drop even more weight and still ride fine, but this is not what I am looking for.

Can we please keep the responses relevant to the topic as this is a genuine question and concern.

Thanks,
Grinderz


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Agreed.
There's no escaping the fact that you need to eat at least breakfast lunch and dinner to expect gains. When I was gaining the most muscle, while still trimming fat I'd eat 5-6 meals a day. 
Some other members brought up some good points. Think Beanbag said isolates for less lactose. I'm not sure if they're all lactose free but that's easy to find out. 
Someone else said you just have to make the time and the commitment like you do for other aspects of your goals. Pack some food and eat it. I mean you could eat a banana and pbj while walking to your car or whatever if you really had to. Ask anyone who's had to work for an obviously excellent physic and they'll tell you again and again that diet is at least 60% of that equation. Get yourself two lunch boxes/bags. They even have some cool Skooby Doo ones if that's a good motivator for ya, lol


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Good stuff Beanbag. Why avoid o6's of some nuts?


It's debatable, but in general you want the ratio of O6 to O3 not to be too high.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Grinderz said:


> I am going to keep eating fruit/veg/salads/meat/fish/nuts/etc because I am a firm believer that you should enjoy what you eat.
> 
> Can we please keep the responses relevant to the topic as this is a genuine question and concern.


lift heavy things
boost your hgh levels


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