# Another clips vrs Flats question



## Racnad (Jun 24, 2013)

We had this discussion again after a ride this week. As usual, it came down to one group is afraid of falling off, while the other is afraid of being trapped in. 

Has anyone reading this been accustomed to riding with clipless pedals, and then made a serious attempt to switch to flats? How did that go for you?


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## desertred (Jun 9, 2010)

I switched to flats after riding clipless when I moved to Colorado, due to much more technical terrain that would lead me to endo when I misjudged my line (or just flat out missed it). A lot of times, I didn't get any warning before playing Superman. Flats gave me the confidence that I could bail without being "stuck" to my pedals. The bottom line is that you can ride with either as long as you have the confidence to get out of a jam when need be. I have not had an issue with falling off of platforms. A good set of shoes with the proper height of pins on your pedals should hold your feet in place. Even with my heels pointed down, my feet stay on the pedals. I use a (fairly) budget combo of Teva Pinners shoes and Wellgo MG-1 pedals. As my abilities and confidence to handle technical terrain have increased, I'm leaning towards moving back to clipless.


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## idoc (Mar 27, 2014)

I started out with flats and moved to spd's within the first month. After the past year in clips I tried flats again and hated it. I ride all mountain, lots of single track with small jumps. The only problem I have had with clips over the past year is when I come unclipped when I was not meaning to. Just last month I unclipped in mid air while trying to pull my bike up towards me. It threw me off balance and caused me to crash onto the same side. I tightened my clips up and have not had a problem. I think you have to find a happy medium with the tension in your clips. They need to be easy enough to get out of in a jam but tight enough to keep the feet glued to the pedal.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> Has anyone reading this been accustomed to riding with clipless pedals, and then made a serious attempt to switch to flats? How did that go for you?


I rode with clips for 10+ years and switched to flats two years ago. From my very first big climb to my first technical descent, I loved them and I have never looked back.

I suspect this is one of those hot topics like ski vs snowboard. Everyone has an opinion. I don't think one way is better than the other so it's good to try them both.

For me, I had no loss of pedaling efficiency. My cornering instantly improved as I can put my foot and therefor my knee anyway I want it. I had a nagging hip pain for years, GONE when I quit riding clipless. Personally I feel more secure about bailing, putting a foot down, or restarting without that extra split second of dealing with a clip.

I coach skills, and I am insistent that people wear flat shoes and no clipless pedals to class. I suggest to beginners to start with flats, and to try clips only when they are feeling well balanced and confident.

My demographic is "old school XC rider" lol but I've tried to be open minded over years. That's why I ride flats and have a short stem and wider bars these days. I sure wish I had a buck for everyone one of my peers tells me how much pedaling efficiency I'm losing. Then I could have a buck also for every clipped in tip over fall I've witnessed.

This article here explores a lot of the pros and cons and myths and science about pedaling. It is an interesting read, and doesn't necessarily promote one over the other.
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/...-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


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## zyzbot (Dec 19, 2003)

Racnad said:


> We had this discussion again after a ride this week. As usual, it came down to one group is afraid of falling off, while the other is afraid of being trapped in.
> 
> Has anyone reading this been accustomed to riding with clipless pedals, and then made a serious attempt to switch to flats? How did that go for you?


I tried it last year. It went poorly. Back to clipless for me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

formica said:


> This article here explores a lot of the pros and cons and myths and science about pedaling. It is an interesting read, *and doesn't necessarily promote one over the other.*
> https://www.bikejames.com/strength/...-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


_"The Flat Pedal Revolution Manifesto"_ ??? I'm not sure how one could better clarify their intent of promoting one over the other. Bjames got beat up by a pair of clipless pedals while trying to learn to use them and never quite recovered from that traumatic experience.


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## kojarena (Oct 4, 2009)

I've moved from clipless (SPD single release, then multi-release, then back to single release due to knee pain) to Saint MX80 pedals and 5/10 shoes. I should have done it sooner. The nervousness of not wanting to go over in clipless was ruining my rides. I still come off but less often, feel more in control of the ride and more keen to get out more often. My style of riding has changed - whereas I would assess a climb and bail early I am now able to stay on the saddle longer knowing if I need to stop I can. I am off the seat more, climbing faster and more relaxed at the end of a ride.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Once you know the 'low heels' technique for riding flats the primary motivation for clips is gone. You stick like glue.


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## DesertGiant (Feb 20, 2013)

I started with flats and recently made the switch to clipless. I have to say that my confidence level is a lot lower being clipped in and it really affects my riding. I tend to crash on sections that I used to easily clear on flats.

I'm hoping that with time I'll get more comfortable riding clipless. Every now and then I'll switch back to the flats (VP Vice Pedals w/ 510 Freeriders) if I'm riding more technical trails. 

I do feel more "in-tune" with my bike when I'm clipped in.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

If you ride "Tech", clipped in isn't a good idea. If you just ride XC trails by all means clip in. I used Time pedals for 15 years before gradually switching over to flats. I ride with friends who clip in all the time. Flat pedals are much better in a wreck. One of my clipped in friends is waiting for surgery on his collar bone which was caused by a jump gone wrong. The pedals didn't make him fall but I fell in the same place and just stepped away from the bike. 5 10 shoes and a good set of flat pedals is what you want if you're going to push the envelope. He's 60 and I'm 58. It was a double black diamond trail.
My wife and I saw a family riding at Gooseberry Mesa earlier this year. Mom and Dad were pushing their bikes as they couldn't get their feet organized with their clip in pedals. They were accustomed to being clipped in on the smooth XC trails where they live.


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## sandyeggo (Mar 6, 2011)

I used clipless for 10 years. My feet were always hurting during the ride and then my knees developed pain. I tried all kinds of different pedals, shoes, adjusting the cleats, etc. but found nothing comfy. I even gave up mountain biking for a year. I missed it, started again with clipless and the pain came right back. Saw a post on here about flats and thought what the heck, might as well try it even thought flats are for newbs. 

After my first ride in comfy shoes, I found what I'd been missing - no foot pain. No knee pain. Freedom when riding - just like riding the BMX bike when I was a kid. And even though I was experienced getting in and out of clipless and hadn't fallen due to being clipped in for years, it was refreshing to not think about it and just ride. 

I will say that for the first few months I carved up my shins a few times but after I got the technique down and got some 5.10's, I haven't had any issues with slipping off. 

All that said, I think it is a very individual thing. For me, flats are better. For you, clipless may be all that. I say try both and pick the one that yields the most smiles per mile. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## noonievut (Feb 17, 2004)

Years ago I ssed clipless when I mountain biked, fell a few times (usually, uphill and I got stuck at a rock or root and couldn't unclip in time), but never thought of using flats. I have been riding road/cross for a long time and always used clipless. Took up mountain biking again recently and wanted to try platforms so that I wouldn't lack confidence on technical sections. I can now clear sections of a trail that are for me quite technical...and I owe it to the confidence inspired by knowing I don't have to unclip if I can't clear a tough section. Had a few slipped pedal strokes and got some shin scrapes, but that hasn't happened for a while no. Do what makes you happy!


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Flat pedal design has improved tremendously in the past decade or so.

I still don't use them. I still don't care what anyone else uses.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'd ridden clipless for over 20 years when last year (at the age of 61) I decided to give flats a try. On my first 11 INCH(!) jump, the bike and I went in different directions. I love a challenge, so stuck with it. I'm now much more comfortable with them and when I go to do lift serviced riding on demanding downhills, I run flats. They are a huge advantage in that environment. Still, when I need to hammer UP something really hard, I'll use clipless. The right tool for the job, so to speak, has the advantage of requiring more gear. I love more gear!


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## someoldfart (Mar 14, 2013)

I tried flats and still have them for snowy times when cleats ice up. I much prefer clipped in. And I ride in Whistler and North Vancouver which is as technical as it gets although I am more XC than DH. My personal testing showed that my pulse was higher using flats on the same trails by about ten bpm. And I found technical climbs more challenging. Having used toe clips and straps or clip less for thirty years of mountain biking I am very comfortable being clipped in. I get in and out very fast. 

James Wilson is expressing opinion only. He's wrong as far as I am concerned but his opinion seems more for gravity oriented riding. I've read lots of articles over the years about pedalling efficiency. One article summarized studies where the researchers found that mountain bikers had the most efficient pedalling style in terms of applying power throughout the stroke probably because off road there are many instances where a rider must pull up on the stroke to keep going.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Racnad said:


> Has anyone reading this been accustomed to riding with clipless pedals, and then made a serious attempt to switch to flats? How did that go for you?


There was a learning curve. I dabbed on my first climbing switchback, which wasn't a hard one by any means. I realized I'd gotten really used to working the bike around with my feet. I also came off both pedals on a small jump on that ride (landing with my butt on the saddle, and both legs way out...). It took me a couple weeks to really get comfortable with flats, but I haven't gone back. I kept clipless pedals on my hardtail for a while, but eventually I realized that my knees are far more sensitive to saddle height when I'm clipped in than when I'm on flats, so I moved over completely. If I ever get another pure XC rig, I'll probably start out with clipless pedals on it, though.

I think you summarized some of the polarization nicely. In my experience, I have never crashed or fallen without unclipping. It just happens. And provided you have halfway decent pedals, shoes, and technique, your feet stay put on flats. And I will say that learning that technique DID make me a better rider.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

I got up a hill spinning my next taller gear on my first clipped ride....

Untill then I had never made that hill even in my lowest gear without walking the last part...

pushing down and pulling up at the same time makes me smoother also.

Got on my recumbent with platforms,,, hated it, will get me some spd's for that
bike real soon...


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## benja55 (Aug 10, 2005)

I go back and forth constantly. I like both and it helps keep things fresh. Learning to pump, hop and control the bike with flats definitely makes your handling skills sharper, which in turn carries over to riding with clips.


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## Racnad (Jun 24, 2013)

I can unclip pretty quickly for a dab is I need to, but it can take a few pedal strokes to clip back in if it's technical. It feels a little like cheating to take a foot out of the clip to help around the corner, but hey, fun rides are for fun. Their not trials competitions.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

eb1888 said:


> Once you know the 'low heels' technique for riding flats the primary motivation for clips is gone. You stick like glue.


+1 Yup, you realy feel it 360deg..the sole of my 5.10 and my pinned flats are as one. It's a mind thing..you think about droppin yer heal feel the bottom of your shoe..it's crank time. This I use for thoes 35min 3-4mph climbs.
I will admit I have never wore bolling shoes on my bike, never will try cliped in. I enjoy the freedom of any shoe any time..flip=flops to the local market for a beeer, clipless pedals have their place, just not for mwe is all. In my 20s I rode with clips on beartrap pedals..but I kept the straps loose..


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

I use both.

Ultimately use what you like but take the time to know going a little airborne with flats and knowing how to pump vs just lift the bike with your feetbelts. You really want to know that flight feeling from launching, pumping or a drop vs just lifting your bike because it's attached to your feet. That made me a better rider no matter what pedals I'm using.

This might be an issue of age, but I've also hurt myself less after the move to flats more often.

Enjoy the learning!


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## MarkMac (Nov 28, 2012)

I like being clipped in. I'm not so afraid of a 30lb mtn bike hurting me. Would I clip into my YZ450? No. I need to use a lot more body english to rein her in. The mtn bike seems to respond well when I'm clipped. I also feel more efficient. I do have to unclip a tad sooner then I'd like when things get sketchy, but it's a minor nuisance for the gain.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Its a personal thing over all but benefits of clipless for a rider (being better climber etc) is because poor technique on flats. The whole leg pulling up thing is bogus for the avg rider. With flats u make a sub conscious effort to always have force on the pedals so your feet dont slip off. Where as clipless u can lift as ur leg comes up. U produce almost no power with the leg lifting, but u remove the resistance/weight of that leg when the other is pushing down. Thus ur down force is more efficient. Clipless makes this east, platforms takes learning and practice.

U can accomplish this with practice on flats. I'm practicing it alot now and my climbing is improving leaps and bounds in a very short time. I rude 1x10 now, lost my low range mostly from granny ring yet first time out on a trail that is half the loop one long ass climb, I made that climb easier and faster than I did when I had my granny ring. All due to technique, and only time foot has come off my flats is bad pedal strike that almost puts me in the dirt.

But that's my experience and mentality. I won't go clipless as dont want to risk damage to knees or ankles from a crash with bike attached.

Do what u like, try both for a bit. But learn proper technique so its an apples to apples comparison. Then ride what you like for the long haul.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

the climbing argument in tech for clipless is funny. see trials. gee atherton won the last round of wc dh in australia on borrowed five tens from a spectator after switching to flats due to course conditions. technique is everything and the best technique is acquired thru flat flat pedal use. me thinks.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

*Απ: Another clips vrs Flats question*

Both are good to learn. Each gives you important skills that help when you cross over to the other. 
Right now I love clipless, but I switch back to flats occasionally.
Riding a hardtail I find clipless gives me more confidence on descends as the bike gets knocked about under me. I like the connected to the bike feel as well. The small area of the shimano m520 I have also reduces pedal strikes compared to flats. Another advantage to being clipped in is that you have to commit, as dabbing a foot is not as easy. This pays huge dividents in tech situations.

So personally, I prefer clipless but appreciate flats for teaching me the technique.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm an idiot. This is apparent because I'm jumping into this ridiculous thread for the second time.

But, for all the posters claiming how using clipless is somehow cheating, makes riding dangerous, will destroy your knees, your technique, and basically have no advantages over flats in any way, shape or form I have to wonder, how many of them have actually spent any time at all on clipless? 

I was dropping my heels during the era of helmetless heads and Alfreda Binda toe straps, and though I probably learned the technique on flats (Schwinn Sting Ray) I continued doing so on the mtb because it's the only way you can keep from getting bucked when the going gets rough, and by golly I still do it even though I'm hamstringed with those darned clipless pedals. As for pulling up it's certainly not the main benefit of clipless, barely a minor one, but once when I damn near broke my hip on a mtb ride I was able to ride out 1/4 mile or so to the trailhead with one leg, try that with yer flats!

I ride clipless because it's more fun and my feet hurt less, if flats were more fun then I'd ride those.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

It seems like people who ride clipless wreck a whole lot, even on simple stuff. I think clipless are a terrible carry over from road biking, but I am glad more people are becoming aware that flats are not that bad after all.


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## MarkMac (Nov 28, 2012)

I rode using Coda clipless pedals back when Clinton was president. From 2001+ I rode only motorized bikes. I bought my first new MTB in 15 years last week, and only rode it 6 miles quick down the road before putting on Shimano clipless pedals. Right now, my bike is dusty, my gear is smelly, and I still haven't had a crash. I didn't have any problem relearning clipless pedals.

Plus being a guy, I don't have any vagina muscles to help grip the bike. Once my legs do the splits, there is no coming back. The clipless pedals are invaluable.


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## coot271 (Sep 15, 2010)

I have been riding clipless now for about a year. I like the feeling of being clipped in and my crashes are getting a little better. LOL I guess I finally have some muscle memory! Hopefully, within the next year I'll be upgrading to a FS trailbike of the 27.5 ilk........For some reason, the clipless pedals seem to belong on my hardtail 29er and flats seem to be more appropriate for a dually. Just my feeling....I may put the flats on the dually...who knows. While my feet did stay planted on my flats, I still feel a little better knowing that if I was to be separating myself from my bike for some reason, I'd be able to control my direction. Anyway, that's my ramble.


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## crewjones (Aug 24, 2007)

I prefer flats on my mountain bike. Clipless on my road bike and toe clips with out straps for my round town vintage roadie. that is what i prefer, not a suggestion


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

MarkMac said:


> Plus being a guy, I don't have any vagina muscles to help grip the bike. Once my legs do the splits, there is no coming back. The clipless pedals are invaluable.


Wut? You need a refresher course on a woman's anatomy.


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## MarkMac (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm in the camp that believes in general, women have stronger adductors (AKA mommy muscles) than men. It may be a camp of one. 

I don't fear a pulled groin as much with my clipless. Range of motion is limited to my stronger muscle groups.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

girlonbike said:


> Wut? You need a refresher course on a woman's anatomy.


enlighten us... :ihih:


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

kojarena said:


> I've moved from clipless (SPD single release, then multi-release, then back to single release due to knee pain) to Saint MX80 pedals and 5/10 shoes. I should have done it sooner. The nervousness of not wanting to go over in clipless was ruining my rides. I still come off but less often, feel more in control of the ride and more keen to get out more often. My style of riding has changed - whereas I would assess a climb and bail early I am now able to stay on the saddle longer knowing if I need to stop I can. I am off the seat more, climbing faster and more relaxed at the end of a ride.


True and also just a quick dab or even foot plant, up and over and keep going all in one motion.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

MarkMac said:


> I'm in the camp that believes in general, women have stronger adductors (AKA mommy muscles) than men. It may be a camp of one.
> 
> I don't fear a pulled groin as much with my clipless. Range of motion is limited to my stronger muscle groups.


Ahhhh. Okay. Perhaps try using your anus muscles to help you grip your saddle.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

formica said:


> This article here explores a lot of the pros and cons and myths and science about pedaling. It is an interesting read, and doesn't necessarily promote one over the other.
> https://www.bikejames.com/strength/...-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


mentioning that vacuous, steaming pile of equine residue in a flats vs. clipless thread is akin to godwin's law.

it is neither interesting, unbiased, nor scientific. it's the vociferous ballyhooing (and boo-hooing) of someone who tried clipless ON THE ROAD once, fell over, and has been sniveling and crying about it ever since.

that's the short version. here's a more in-depth review/assessment of that specious pseudo-scientific pontification of putridness.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

The only negatives to flats that I have found are the initial shin smashes and the shoes wear out faster. I switched to to flats after riding clip less since they went mainstream ...1992-3? I have become so much better on the technical stuff it's insane ...especially those two wheel powerslides on loose over hard pack. Thrilling! On the climbs, I'm stand a lot more and climbing in bigger gears ...and just taking a lot more chance --and having more success --up and down the rocky stuff.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

monogod said:


> mentioning that vacuous, steaming pile of equine residue in a flats vs. clipless thread is akin to godwin's law.
> 
> it is neither interesting, unbiased, or scientific. it's the vociferous ballyhooing (and boo-hooing) of someone who tried clipless ON THE ROAD once, fell over, and has been sniveling and crying about it ever since.
> 
> that's the short version. here's a more in-depth review/assessment of that specious pseudo-scientific pontification of putridness.


 Ok, I'll buy _some_ of the back story there. I certainly didn't go any further than that. Points can be taken by all sides I think.


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## FireinMTB (Apr 23, 2012)

I rode flats for the first 2 years i was seriously mountain biking. Having come from BMX, it just made sense and I picked it up very quckly and I love my platforms.

That said, i just made the switch to clipless this year and I don't see switching back anytime soon. Theres some good bike control that was gained, i'm never bucked around or have to "find my footing" on the downhills, and I'm climbing stuff with more efficiency than I have before.

The difference was clear and quite big in my case, but i'd never hate on flats. Get me on some lift access terrain and I'd absolutely be on the plats again. For my XC/trail/AM riding i really do prefer clipless so far.. then again I have not had a good crash since switching to them so my opinion could very well change.


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## MarkMac (Nov 28, 2012)

girlonbike said:


> Ahhhh. Okay. Perhaps try using your anus muscles to help you grip your saddle.


Touche'. *tips hat*

Stand by for piccys!


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

girlonbike said:


> Ahhhh. Okay. Perhaps try using your anus muscles to help you grip your saddle.


With this you can......


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

wellgo wam d 10. nuff said.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Every rider has their own preferences, but I tried flats again recently after nearly 23 years on my clipless pedals and felt pretty disconnected on the flats. Guess my clipless pedals have made me lazy. I am not afraid to ride anything on them and cleaned 99% of UPS/LPS/Porcupine Rim and 99% of Slickrock on them last weekend. Clicking out is second nature, so I haven't had a clipped-in fall in years, despite my love for riding pretty technical terrain.


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

My shins will not allow me to go back to flats.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

MarkMac said:


> Touche'. *tips hat*
> 
> Stand by for piccys!





bamwa said:


> With this you can......


ha!


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Lenny7 said:


> My shins will not allow me to go back to flats.


I've have something of an opposite experience. I rode clips for years (even rode with Look road pedals before the first Shimano spuds came out) and was a "clips till death" rider until I got more into the fr/dh end and upped my air time. Landing clipped in began to work my feet and I developed plantar fasciitis. Switched to flats and the problem went away. Now, if they had a system where you could clip in at the ball of the foot for climbing and at the arch for descending I'd be first in line to try it out.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Lenny7 said:


> My shins will not allow me to go back to flats.


Never heard of shin guards or pads?


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

i went clats to clips back to flats and now i ride with flats on my trail setup and clips on my carbon hardtail where the wheels stay on the ground most of the time.


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## supersedona (Dec 17, 2012)

whodaphuck said:


> I've have something of an opposite experience. I rode clips for years (even rode with Look road pedals before the first Shimano spuds came out) and was a "clips till death" rider until I got more into the fr/dh end and upped my air time. Landing clipped in began to work my feet and I developed plantar fasciitis. Switched to flats and the problem went away. Now, if they had a system where you could clip in at the ball of the foot for climbing and at the arch for descending I'd be first in line to try it out.


Thats why I like my SPD 545s and 454s. They have a metal cage platform around for standard grip and the SPD mech for snapping in. Given the choice I will not go full platform on mtb since I got a 4 inch cage scar on my shin from slipping off one on a small landing. Other than getting a pedal to the back of my knee walking it down a trail in a race(OUCH) I've never had an SPD related injury even in 2 ft jumps.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

supersedona said:


> Thats why I like my SPD 545s and 454s. They have a metal cage platform around for standard grip and the SPD mech for snapping in. Given the choice I will not go full platform on mtb since I got a 4 inch cage scar on my shin from slipping off one on a small landing. Other than getting a pedal to the back of my knee walking it down a trail in a race(OUCH) I've never had an SPD related injury even in 2 ft jumps.


I used 545's, but there isn't sufficient grip when not clipped in, no matter what the shoe is. Switching to 5.10s and a good grippy pedal (Canfield Crampon Ultimates are da bomb) was worlds better (for me) and I've never slipped off even on the big landings.


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

Thustlewhumber said:


> It seems like people who ride clipless wreck a whole lot, even on simple stuff.


Care to elaborate on this?? I rarely wreck, and I can guarantee you even then it is rarely, if ever, due to me being unable to unclip.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

girlonbike said:


> Ahhhh. Okay. Perhaps try using your anus muscles to help you grip your saddle.


OMG, where's the rep button...


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

dirt farmer said:


> Care to elaborate on this?? I rarely wreck, and I can guarantee you even then it is rarely, if ever, due to me being unable to unclip.


Agreed. Also, people fall a lot on climbs. Think of how many spills are avoided by having the extra pull power to make that last ditch effort up a steep climb in clips where on flats you're going down. Plus I've rediscovered my love for mtb by now learning how to bunny hop and wheelie the right way on flats. I'm not saying, like many people do, that clips cause bad habits always, but they did for me, and now I'm becoming much more in tune with the bike learning how to do all this stuff the right way.

Posted via mobile


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## peteer01 (Apr 26, 2005)

dirt farmer said:


> Care to elaborate on this?? I rarely wreck, and I can guarantee you even then it is rarely, if ever, due to me being unable to unclip.


I'd be someone who would wreck a lot on clips. I have a friend who also rides very tentatively clipped in...but he's been riding for over a decade with clips.



TwoNin9r said:


> Agreed. Also, people fall a lot on climbs. Think of how many spills are avoided by having the extra pull power to make that last ditch effort up a steep climb in clips where on flats you're going down.


No doubt. I fully believe they give you more power. To paraphrase J.B. Weld (page 2), I don't think they're somehow cheating, making riding dangerous (for others), will destroy knees, technique, nor do I think they have no advantages over flats.

That said, I like flats and don't like the idea of being clipped in, even if it would make me faster or give me more power. More power to anyone who's riding with clips and likes them, and the same for anyone who decides they prefer flats and goes back to flats.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I ride flats on the road and on the mt bike in the winter, clipless the rest of the time. I find clipless an advantage trying to get up a really steep grade, going over logs and on a rocky, rooty downhill. never have not come uncliped when needed. YRMV


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## Racnad (Jun 24, 2013)

MarkMac said:


> I bought my first new MTB in 15 years last week, and only rode it 6 miles quick down the road before putting on Shimano clipless pedals. Right now, my bike is dusty, my gear is smelly, and I still haven't had a crash. I didn't have any problem relearning clipless pedals.
> 
> Plus being a guy, I don't have any vagina muscles to help grip the bike.


Best answer I've ever read on mtbr


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## Racnad (Jun 24, 2013)

justwan naride said:


> BoRiding a hardtail I find clipless gives me more confidence on descends as the bike gets knocked about under me. I like the connected to the bike feel as well.


I've noticed that flats are more common on DH style long travel bikes. Maybe be clipped in is more important on hard tails and FS with stiffer suspensions because more motion from bumps travel through the cranks?


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## BigRed390 (May 31, 2012)

Racnad said:


> I've noticed that flats are more common on DH style long travel bikes. Maybe be clipped in is more important on hard tails and FS with stiffer suspensions because more motion from bumps travel through the cranks?


I ride a rigid SS and race a hardtail on flat pedals, and I have minimal issues with losing a foot off the pedal even in the rocks. I don't win at the racing thing and I don't care. I just like to ride my bike! Basic science and World Cup-level athletes obviously substantiate the benefits clipless pedals can offer, but I have more fun on flats.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

dirt farmer said:


> Care to elaborate on this?? I rarely wreck, and I can guarantee you even then it is rarely, if ever, due to me being unable to unclip.


Absolutely! (although its going to open a whole can of worms/neg reps)

Clipless users tend to have very high seat posts and very low handlebar height, and even inverted stems for "maximum efficiency". Which means that their toes tend to be pointed down. Which means they have most of their weight on their handlebars and not on their feet. Which means they are riding a completely unstable platform. As soon as they deviate from anything other than a smooth line, this unstable platform usually goes where it wants taking them with it. It usually results in the front tire all of a sudden taking a wrong turn (youtube is full of videos of this) and/or the rider going OTB. Due to the amount of weight on the front, the shift in the center of gravity to the front, and the inability to react in time for your feet to release - all this results in a wreck. I have seen this from people not making it up a hill. I have seen this from people washing out in a corner. I have seen this from people attempting to go down a hill. I have seen this from people trying to get over a small object. The most embarrassing is the people who fall in a parking lot or at slow speeds. The worst part is that this is acceptable to the point where new clipless users are told "You will wreck over and over and over... but its not the pedals, its because you haven't practiced in the pedals." You barely wreck now, but how many wrecks did it take for you to get to this point?

Flats force you to put weight on your feet to keep you planted. It forces your center of gravity to be closer to your bottom bracket. It forces you to learn how your bike reacts and how to react with it. My riding style is "maximum momentum", and learning how to keep planted while my bike is reacting is key to that. If I go up a hill and I cant make it, I simply put a foot down. If I wash out in a corner, I simply put a foot down. If I can't make a downhill, my bike goes down as I jump off the back. Parking lot? You guessed it.... I put a foot down. I have had exactly 2 wrecks in 4 years: One was a carbon riser handlebar that slipped in the stem coming off a jump (no, you cant stop when the brakes are pointed straight up). The other was a pedal strike while trying to pedal leaning around a corner (flipped me OTB). However, I can count hundreds of times over that same time period where I put my foot down to keep from wrecking.

I have watched (and will continue to watch) clipless users have all sorts of wrecks on simple stuff when they could have just put a foot down. This is the price they want to pay so that they can get "maximum efficiency" in a sport that doesn't require efficiency; it requires momentum. Clipless cheats people out of learning how to keep momentum and how to handle their bike properly (Honestly, how many of you could stay on your pedals if you weren't clipped into them?)

Super long answer that I am sure to get neg-repped to death because I dared to question clipless theory, but there is your answer based on my observations. I will continue to live with my flat pedal shame and low hospital bills.


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

Generalizations are fun and all but are you saying every pro racer, not downhill obviously, is cheating themselves? 
Oh, I'm clipped in, my bars are slightly higher than my seat and I rarely crash... Knock on wood.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Flats force you to put weight on your feet to keep you planted. It forces your center of gravity to be closer to your bottom bracket. It forces you to learn how your bike reacts and how to react with it. My riding style is "maximum momentum", and learning how to keep planted while my bike is reacting is key to that.


wow............ just like a Jedi fighter eh?

If you do get neg repped I suspect it will be due to your zealousness, not because you're seriously trying to question the "clipless theory" (whatever that might be). Why is it that the clipless crowd never attempt to spread their religion and convert all of the flat pedal heathens? >Because they don't care what anyone else uses.


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## waffleBeast (Jul 5, 2010)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Absolutely! (although its going to open a whole can of worms/neg reps)
> 
> Clipless users tend to have very high seat posts and very low handlebar height, and even inverted stems for "maximum efficiency". Which means that their toes tend to be pointed down. Which means they have most of their weight on their handlebars and not on their feet....


This post is filled with dumb.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

waffleBeast said:


> This post is filled with dumb.


that, my friend, is an understatement.


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## Racnad (Jun 24, 2013)

Great discussion folks, although I suspect the crashes are caused by bad technique regardless of the pedals used.

I'm considering trying out flats on my current bike just to switch it up. Should I stick to the intermediate trails until I'm comfortably "on" or should I go straight for the fun flowy trails where I currently unclip occasionally on steep sharp corners?


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I alternate between flats and clips and enjoy both for different reasons. That said, thustlewumber's post has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this site. And that's saying something.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Thustlewhumber said:


> I have watched (and will continue to watch) clipless users have all sorts of wrecks on simple stuff when they could have just put a foot down.


Who are your riding with? I've never seen any of this. It takes me about a quarter of a second to unclip on my EBs as it does to come off my flats. I'm by no means a pro rider but I've never taken a spill that could have been avoided by being on flats. Mind you I ride both regularly on my 2 bikes. Your generalization of people in clips "tending" to do stuff with their handlebars and seat post is way off. My trail bike sometimes has clip ins and it's got a 1.5 inch riser bar, 140mm fork, and a dropper post.

None of your post is accurate or helpful. And I'm really not trying to be mean it just seems like a very skewed viewpoint based on imaginary scenarios

Posted via mobile


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

TwoNin9r said:


> Who are your riding with? I've never seen any of this. It takes me about a quarter of a second to unclip on my EBs as it does to come off my flats. I'm by no means a pro rider but I've never taken a spill that could have been avoided by being on flats. Mind you I ride both regularly on my 2 bikes. Your generalization of people in clips "tending" to do stuff with their handlebars and seat post is way off. My trail bike sometimes has clip ins and it's got a 1.5 inch riser bar, 140mm fork, and a dropper post.
> 
> None of your post is accurate or helpful. And I'm really not trying to be mean it just seems like a very skewed viewpoint based on imaginary scenarios
> 
> Posted via mobile


I thought the same thing. I'm wondering where this guys rides, who he rides with, and if hes ever been to a race.

There's a very noticeable pattern here in flat users claiming flats are better because they observe bad technique on clipless. Then they go on to admit they are afraid of crashing on clipless.

I ride both but 99% of the time its clipless. I use flats for snow and lift assisted riding for the most part.


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## digitalsoul (Feb 17, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> wow............ just like a Jedi fighter eh?
> 
> If you do get neg repped I suspect it will be due to your zealousness, not because you're seriously trying to question the "clipless theory" (whatever that might be). Why is it that the clipless crowd never attempt to spread their religion and convert all of the flat pedal heathens? >Because they don't care what anyone else uses.


From the posts I have read it seems that both sides are trying to "spread their religion", and neither is innocent. I just use whatever helps me enduro the best.


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

digitalsoul said:


> From the posts I have read it seems that both sides are trying to "spread their religion", and neither is innocent. I just use whatever helps me enduro the best.


There aren't too many posts stating everyone should ride clipless. I think everyone should learn on flats because it's one less complication to worry about, and if you don't feel comfortable on clipless you should stick with flats. I think the flat pedal crowd is a little more into arguing how flats are superior, based on internet forums anyway. This is an argument I've only seen online.

I agree that flats help develop better technique. You could also present the same argument about suspension, disc brakes, quality tubeless tires, etc... So if you never draw a line the best way to develop technique is a BMX, which is pretty much true.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

digitalsoul said:


> From the posts I have read it seems that both sides are trying to "spread their religion", and neither is innocent. I just use whatever helps me enduro the best.


Maybe you could show me an example because I haven't seen that, at least not in this thread. The bjames flatboyz are the only ones who seem hellbent on making sure the other side is aware that their choice of pedals is cheating, ruining their technique, hampering their development, and generally making them worthless and weak.

Enduro on brother!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Absolutely! (although its going to open a whole can of worms/neg reps)
> 
> Clipless users tend to have very high seat posts and very low handlebar height, and even inverted stems for "maximum efficiency". Which means that their toes tend to be pointed down. Which means they have most of their weight on their handlebars and not on their feet. Which means they are riding a completely unstable platform. As soon as they deviate from anything other than a smooth line, this unstable platform usually goes where it wants taking them with it. It usually results in the front tire all of a sudden taking a wrong turn (youtube is full of videos of this) and/or the rider going OTB. Due to the amount of weight on the front, the shift in the center of gravity to the front, and the inability to react in time for your feet to release - all this results in a wreck. I have seen this from people not making it up a hill. I have seen this from people washing out in a corner. I have seen this from people attempting to go down a hill. I have seen this from people trying to get over a small object. The most embarrassing is the people who fall in a parking lot or at slow speeds. The worst part is that this is acceptable to the point where new clipless users are told "You will wreck over and over and over... but its not the pedals, its because you haven't practiced in the pedals." You barely wreck now, but how many wrecks did it take for you to get to this point?
> 
> ...


Lolz.

Clipless theory.

Maximum efficiency.

Carbon bars slipping in the stem causes you to crash and you blame not installation error but pedal choice.

I love that!

Real men use clips. That's right. Toeclips.


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## Mr. 68 Hundred (Feb 6, 2011)

Flats x 2 months.
Toe clips x 3 years.
Clipless x 18 years.
Back to flats x 2 years.
Now I have, and ride both. Flats for trials bike, DX SPD's for SS'ing trail, though I unclip for log rides. Flats on geared 6" bike.


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## noonievut (Feb 17, 2004)

I tried a new trail I had never been to. I heard it was rocky (more than what I'm used to). My mountain bike has flats so I thought I would have no fear. I shocked myself that I was able to clear very technical (for me) sections 9/10 times. The times I couldn't, I got stopped and had to put my foot down (split second). I know based on my intermediate unclipping experience that I would have fallen, but with the flats I didn't. I then went through this section and with high confidence cleared it. I know, FOR ME, I could not have done this with clipless because I would have been nervous and therefore less relaxed, and less confident.

Do what you need to do to enjoy cycling...


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm going to put my two cents in here for reasons I still haven't sorted out completely yet. 

I started mountain biking before clipless pedals were invented. So, perhaps obviously, toe clips were the thing. Which was new, because my BMX bikes never had those. But no biggie. To be honest though, I was never sure what benefit, if any, there was to toe clips. About 15 years ago, I was gifted my first set of clipless pedals and shoes by my brother, who insisted they would "change my life" or some such hyperbole. 

In a way, they did. Being attached to the bike, which it seems many people are afraid of, forced me to work on some very basic skills. Before you ask - no, I really don't consider myself THAT good a mountain biker, I'm just a guy who has been doing it for a long time, and you do something like mountain biking for a long time, you either become a passable rider, or kill yourself. The people I ride with now have actually been heard to comment to other people "that guy never wrecks" when referring to me. That's not entirely true either, but when I DO wreck, it's nothing to do with clipless pedals. My level of comfort on them could be described as "I don't even care." I couldn't begin to tell you how many miles I have on SPD pedals on mountain bikes, but I have over 5K on them on road bikes. Yes, mountain style SPD's on my road bikes. It makes all the hard core roadies think I'm an easy mark, but that's another story.

Fast forward to last month. The backs of my legs start hurting around my knees. It's a muscle thing, so other than being uncomfortable, I'm not real worried about it, I figure it's just a long ride I did or something. Except it keeps happening. I asked a friend of mine who's a college cycling coach about it, and he starts in on this thing about how long have I been riding clipped in, and after I tell him, he asks me if I've considered riding flats. Just 10 or 15 rides - just to retrain my legs the right way to pedal. What? Yep. I figure what the heck, I'll try it.

I picked up a set of 5.10 spitfires on sale for $50, and threw on a cheap set of wellgo flats - I have some nicer ones on the way. Tossed the (rigid) SS in the back of the truck, and off to the saturday social ride I go. I figure if I'm going to make a clown of myself, I'd just as well entertain. Almost immediately someone noticed I wasn't clipped in, and had flats on, and different shoes. Betting ensued with regards to how long it would be before both shins were bleeding, I couldn't climb a hill, or I came completely off the bike on one of the jumps. Everyone lost the bet, because I never lost a pedal, hit two jumps and stayed planted, rode through the most technical part of the park, and didn't impale my taint on the top tube...none of these horrors came to pass.

Apparently, once you've learned to ride a bike on flats, you never forget. It's like...riding a bike. But my legs didn't hurt after the ride, nor either of the other rides I've done on flats. My coach friend said once I felt like I was "pedaling differently" there was no reason I couldn't go back to clipless whenever I wanted. But he warned me I might like flats enough that I willingly switch back and forth. I suspect he's right.

Well then, who said you can't find a bargain anywhere anymore? Look at all that y'all just got for two cents....


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Haha. Amazing post. Check out the vp vice pedals. love mine and they're like $60 on amazon. Rep for you 

Posted via mobile


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Nothin but love for you guys. I'm glad you are riding, no matter how you do it. 

Funny story: I took a MTB clinic and the only wreck of the weekend was from the instructor... who fell trying to turn around because he couldn't get unclipped in time; and he had unbelievably fantastic technique. Happens to the best of them


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

I rode SPDs for 6 years and just switched to flats last Fall. I'll never go back. I didn't notice any loss of efficiency on the climbs, and I immediately started having much more fun on technical stuff and jumps. It did take me about 2 months to unlearn all the bad habits that SPDs teach you, and to learn how to keep my feet planted (heals down) in the fast chattery sections, but now that I have I am loving them. 

But that's just me. I don't care what anyone else runs...


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## KiwiJohn (Feb 6, 2007)

They're not bad habits, they're just different habits.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Well they're less desirable. It's better to know how to bunny hop, for instance, without using your pedals to lift the bike, and better to know how to clean the toughest climb without having to rely on lifting up with your back pedal. 

Posted via mobile


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## mtnbiker64 (Nov 17, 2004)

PD2, I just got my Deity decoys and put them on my Rocky. Deb and I did a ride at the Moon last night and with the 5 10's I stuck. Did notice it is a bit hard at times trying to reposition your feet while riding. Probably hitting the Moon again tonight. Weekends coming up. Time to ride.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

If set up properly, and your not into superman grabs, clipless have the advantage in the chunk. But only if they are setup properly. Too tight and you fall over, too loose and they slip out. Proper setup of equipment goes a long way. With flats I get bounced off the pedals regularly, especially if it is wet, this wont happen with clipless.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

If you are getting bounced off your pedals wearing flats, one of three things is going on. 1. wrong shoes 2. wrong pedals 3. not pressure pedal


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

formica said:


> If you are getting bounced off your pedals wearing flats, one of three things is going on. 1. wrong shoes 2. wrong pedals 3. not pressure pedal


Agreed, if by 3. you meant "improper technique". I ride flats on a hardtail, and with proper technique I don't get bounced off. And it is very frequently wet where I ride, and there are ALWAYS tons of rocks. lol

Mike- Nice man! Yeah 5.10s and Deitys are like super glue. You'll get used to it, but that's part of why I prefer the Canfields on my Yelli to the Decoys on the Nimble 9. but then I could have two sets of Decoys for what I paid for my Canfields... lol

As far as "bad habits" or not, I stand by it when I think they are bad habits. I rode flatland a lot as a kid so I learned flats then. It only took me a month or so to unlearn the SPD habits and get used to the flats. My wife, who never rode flats, took 4-5 months to learn to do a proper bunny hop or log over on the flats. Now that she has, her riding have improved tremendously over when she was riding SPDs.

My rule of thumb:

Flats = Funner (that is a word today)
Clipless = Faster (but only a little)

I ride to have fun, so it's a no brainer.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

pointerDixie214 said:


> Agreed, if by 3. you meant "improper technique". I ride flats on a hardtail, and with proper technique I don't get bounced off. And it is very frequently wet where I ride, and there are ALWAYS tons of rocks. lol





formica said:


> If you are getting bounced off your pedals wearing flats, one of three things is going on. 1. wrong shoes 2. wrong pedals 3. not pressure pedal


You misunderstand. I am not talking rocks. I am talking chunk. Flats don't work here. Period. In my area 150mm is considered an xc bike.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I'm happy to differ with you on this one. The more chunky it is, the more glad I am that I am not clipped in.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

formica said:


> I'm happy to differ with you on this one. The more chunky it is, the more glad I am that I am not clipped in.


I'm smiling for three reasons.

1. I've enjoyed many of your posts over the years. At some points they read like some of the same efforts in my area, and that you were part of one of those small posses trying to be good stewards for the sport.

2. Flats really helped me with a save this past weekend but I still landed in so much big and sharp rock that I got pretty bruised up in a few spots. I won't buy someone saying I should have had my clipped rig there because it was exactly one of the riding spots where getting hurt worse started more riding without my clip/cleat type pedals.

3. Like wheel size, the pedals are not like religion or tribal. Over time and with experience I've experienced the pros and cons for product choices and go with what works best for my situation.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> U produce almost no power with the leg lifting, .


Please explain this to me. I pull up ALL THE TIME when climbing in clips. I have tried the dropped heel method on flats and cannot duplicate the power of a hamstring pull up in clips when climbing. Particularly on my single speed, I probably generate MORE POWER pulling up when climbing than I do mashing.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

TwoNin9r said:


> Well they're less desirable. It's better to know how to bunny hop, for instance, without using your pedals to lift the bike, and better to know how to clean the toughest climb without having to rely on lifting up with your back pedal.
> 
> Posted via mobile


Why is it "better" to be able to climb without pulling up? For those of us with bad knees, pulling up is essential when doing long steep climbs. Same for bunny hops. Why is it "better" to be able to do them without clips? I really don't get this. Either you clear an obstacle, make a climb, or you don't.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

skankingbiker said:


> Why is it "better" to be able to climb without pulling up? For those of us with bad knees, pulling up is essential when doing long steep climbs. Same for bunny hops. Why is it "better" to be able to do them without clips? I really don't get this. Either you clear an obstacle, make a climb, or you don't.


Ok... What happens if you come unclipped on a climb and can't get back in, there's one.) it's really just about having more skill. If you can bunny hop and climb on flats, you're only faster and better with clips. The inverse, however, is not true

Posted via mobile


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not knocking clip ins. I ride clipped in on my xc bike but I noticed much more even on that when I went back to flats on my other bike 

Posted via mobile


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

skankingbiker said:


> Why is it "better" to be able to climb without pulling up? For those of us with bad knees, pulling up is essential when doing long steep climbs. Same for bunny hops. Why is it "better" to be able to do them without clips? I really don't get this. Either you clear an obstacle, make a climb, or you don't.


I ride "both ways" so I'll use sex in the description or analogy. The real thing is better.

I find a difference between just lifting up my bike with feet clipped to it and real pump or pop to get it up or fly without my clip type pedals. I can't call what I used to do a jump, double (rollers) or bunny hop after my getting better with flats a few years ago.

Finally, it really helped develop a fun skill I use clipped or not clipped - that's pump the bike. I didn't realize it until I was riding with others and realized I was on their back wheel after a turn or roller.

My learning both was really getting a skill that makes it more fun, and sometimes more safe (at least for me). Like wheel size or suspension vs non, the pedals are not a tribal thing for me but just more added to the sport.

I used to ask why it was better like you did. No need to ask now that I can do some low level flight without just lifting up the bike with feet.

This fun aspect is so great, and same for the personal safety gained that I use the cleats when their performance will help.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

A mtbiker suffered a horrendous death last month when he fell clipped in negotiating some roots in a central american tropical jungle trail. He couldnt unclip and fell to his side and landed on a hive of army ants that were nesting on a tree by the side of the trail. His torso and face were submerged in a mound composed of millions upon milions of stinging ants interweaved together. He suffered thousands of external and internal stings throught his respiratory system. His riding buddies heard his screams but when they came to his aid less than a minute later, it was too late. 


I personally alternate between flats and spds. The only time when I really feel an advantage to being clipped in is when negotiating technical climbs. The above story is false by the way, I just want it to make it in the 1000 ways to die tv series.

Cheers


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

abelfonseca said:


> A mtbiker suffered a horrendous death last month when he fell clipped in negotiating some roots in a central american tropical jungle trail. He couldnt unclip and fell to his side and landed on a hive of army ants that were nesting on a tree by the side of the trail. His torso and face were submerged in a mound composed of millions upon milions of stinging ants interweaved together. He suffered thousands of external and internal stings throught his respiratory system. His riding buddies heard his screams but when they came to his aid less than a minute later, it was too late.
> 
> I personally alternate between flats and spds. The only time when I really feel an advantage to being clipped in is when negotiating technical climbs. The above story is false by the way, I just want it to make it in the 1000 ways to die tv series.
> 
> Cheers


I didn't think about what happens when our wives find this public confession that we go both ways?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

TwoNin9r said:


> Ok... What happens if you come unclipped on a climb and can't get back in, there's one.) it's really just about having more skill.


you answered your own question.

to restart on a tricky climb simply clip in on one side and start with that pedal high, then clip in on the other side as it come around. it's really just about having the skill to do it.

in a lurch you can always climb clipped in on one side and unclipped on the other with the center of your shoe on the pedal. then once you're rotating clip in. i've come unclipped on tricky climbs and completed them with one foot unclipped and on the pedal in this manner.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

TwoNin9r said:


> Well they're less desirable. It's better to know how to bunny hop, for instance, without using your pedals to lift the bike, and better to know how to clean the toughest climb without having to rely on lifting up with your back pedal.


"less desirable" is completely subjective. the same with "better".


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

KiwiJohn said:


> They're not bad habits, they're just different habits.


indeed.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

monogod said:


> "less desirable" is completely subjective. the same with "better".


Generally, yes, but if you're talking about a discipline where certain standards are measurable, then no. Having more leg strength is desirable in mountain biking, period. While that sounds subjective, it's really not. Having additional knowledge and skill (like how to have proper technique without being attached to your bike) sounds subjective, but it's still more desirable. I'm not saying it's imperative, just more desirable, or... "better"

Posted via mobile


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TwoNin9r said:


> Having more leg strength is desirable in mountain biking, period.


Flat pedals give you more leg strength? I'm learning a lot here!

Pushing down on the pedals is cheating btw, totally. Use the force or go home.


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

HAHA I love these threads. To each there own, but de la pena I would rock that trail on my flats, and I would piss myself before I would ever try it in flats. lol

FWIW we have a couple rocks here ("chunk") in PA too. And I prefer my flats for it. But different strokes. Long as you're on a bike and having fun IDGAF.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Flat pedals give you more leg strength? I'm learning a lot here!
> 
> Pushing down on the pedals is cheating btw, totally. Use the force or go home.


Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if you can do it on flats, you can do it in clips, but not vice versa, and if course not in all cases, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Posted via mobile


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TwoNin9r said:


> Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if you can do it on flats, you can do it in clips, but not vice versa, and if course not in all cases, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
> 
> Posted via mobile


Ha, I do now! I pretty much agree with that statement, sorry I misunderstood you.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

TwoNin9r said:


> Generally, yes, but if you're talking about a discipline where certain standards are measurable, then no. Having more leg strength is desirable in mountain biking, period. While that sounds subjective, it's really not. Having additional knowledge and skill (like how to have proper technique without being attached to your bike) sounds subjective, but it's still more desirable. I'm not saying it's imperative, just more desirable, or... "better"
> 
> Posted via mobile


See, this is the problem, your argument is circular. You assume that being able to ride in flats is "better"...therefore, riding in flats is better. You assume that you can only learn "proper technique" in flats. (Again "proper" is a subjective, value-laden term)

I could make the same "argument" about single speeding. "Well, gears are all fine and dandy, but unless you can clean that climb in one gear, you are not a _real_ rider and don't have any skills. You can only learn the proper technique for maintaining momentum if you are riding single speed. Being able to do everything in one gear is better and therefore single speeding is better than riding with gears"


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

the answer is sam hill, danny macAskill & chris akrigg. done. next?


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

skankingbiker said:


> See, this is the problem, your argument is circular. You assume that being able to ride in flats is "better"...therefore, riding in flats is better. You assume that you can only learn "proper technique" in flats. (Again "proper" is a subjective, value-laden term)
> 
> I could make the same "argument" about single speeding. "Well, gears are all fine and dandy, but unless you can clean that climb in one gear, you are not a _real_ rider and don't have any skills. You can only learn the proper technique for maintaining momentum if you are riding single speed. Being able to do everything in one gear is better and therefore single speeding is better than riding with gears"


I don't necessarily disagree with the above but I never meant it to come across as "it is better" I'm more trying to convey that the rider is more skilled who can... So applying that logic what you said above is true. If you can do a certain trail /park /climb on a ss, you can do it on the same bike with gears, but just because you can do it with gears, does not mean you can do it on a ss. Therefore it makes you a better rider if you can do the same ride on a ss

Posted via mobile


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

skankingbiker said:


> See, this is the problem, your argument is circular. You assume that being able to ride in flats is "better"...therefore, riding in flats is better. You assume that you can only learn "proper technique" in flats. (Again "proper" is a subjective, value-laden term)
> 
> I could make the same "argument" about single speeding. "Well, gears are all fine and dandy, but unless you can clean that climb in one gear, you are not a _real_ rider and don't have any skills. You can only learn the proper technique for maintaining momentum if you are riding single speed. Being able to do everything in one gear is better and therefore single speeding is better than riding with gears"


Doesn't work for those of us who ride single speed, many gears, small wheels, big wheels, and both types of pedals. We have a list of pros and cons for all of it. My reading and discussions support that I'm not alone.

One distinct advantage flats gave me might not apply to all but may also save doing the sport for some. Much balance was lost in 5th decade of life, and bifocals don't help. Flats and good shoes cut down getting hurt. Maybe younger riders could use that same help with balance and getting hurt less???

Neither pedal type was something I liked or would take a job selling prior to having the right pedals and shoes for both types.

My riding got better learning and using both types, and the sport became even more enjoyable. On a group ride I'll see some pumping or popping a feature for some air and some lifting their bikes because with feet that are attached. Flats are what teach many the former. That feeling is a most fun part of riding. On a group rides with same acquaintances it's very often when I see those who did or do time learning a set of skills with flats gain with pumping corners and features.

I rest my case saying being tribal on this topic is as silly as being that way on single speed, wheel size, and probably more. Passion here thinking trying different stuff and different ways might might expand the joy or capabilities one has with the sport.

Judging from some I know, going both ways is easier with pedal types and wheel size than it is with sex, and we all seem to have a lot of fun.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

TwoNin9r said:


> I never meant it to come across as "it is better"


it definitely came across that way when you said point blank more than once, _"I'm not saying it's imperative, *just more desirable, or... "better**"*"_ and _"*It's better* to know how to bunny hop, for instance, without using your pedals to lift the bike..."_

the only reason we think that's what you're saying is because that's exactly what you're saying.



TwoNin9r said:


> I'm more trying to convey that the rider is more skilled who can...


again regarding comparing these skills i'd suggest it isn't "more" skilled but rather "different" skills - again because "more skilled" is subjective.

"more" skilled would be bunny hopping on flats HIGHER than someone else on flats can. that's called an "equal comparison".

someone who can bunny hop equally well on flats as well as clips has "more" skills numerically speaking, specifically the skill of bunny hopping on flats and the skill of bunny hopping on clipless (i.e. TWO skills). but being able to do both does not inherently equate to making them a better rider than someone who can only bunny hop on clipless, unless by "better" you simply mean the rider that has a higher numerical value of quantifiable skills specifically related to bunny hopping.

query: a rider can bunny hop over a 2 foot obstacle on both flats and clips. on the trail, he is consistently dropped by a rider on clipless who can't bunny hop on flats to save his life. who is the more skilled or "better" rider?

using your judgement criteria the guy who can bunny hop higher in the parking lot on flats. by mine, the guy who is faster on the trails.

therefore, "better" is absolutely subjective.



TwoNin9r said:


> So applying that logic what you said above is true. If you can do a certain trail /park /climb on a ss, you can do it on the same bike with gears, but just because you can do it with gears, does not mean you can do it on a ss. Therefore it makes you a better rider if you can do the same ride on a ss


that's yet another unequal comparison because you don't seem to be taking the variables into consideration, of which there are many but let's narrow it to one. simply gear the ss down until the trail/park/climb can be made. then you are doing the certain trail/park/climb on BOTH the ss and geared bike.

so "better" in this case comes into play when one person on an ss can consistently make a climb that someone else on a singlespeed that is geared THE SAME cannot. likewise, "better" comes into play of ss vs. geared when comparing lap times.

flats and clips require different equipment/techniques/skills just as riding ss and geared do.

therefore, your logic is invalid.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Your interrupting what I said in a way that makes my logic sound invalid. That doesn't mean it actually is lol. There's really no logic in "better" anyway. That and I don't have the energy to reply to the novel above, so, you know what, you're right. Flats are worse. 

Posted via mobile


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

@monogod, I'm realizing you do this a lot. I don't mean to start a beef but you really have an issue with people's opinions differing from yours, huh? Like you really take the time to write huge responses to posts that don't even really have a right or wrong answer. 

Posted via mobile


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

Damn I never realized people would get butt hurt during a debate about flat vs. clipless. It's not like we're debating wheel size or something! lol


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Clearly the answer to that is 28.25. 

Posted via mobile


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

TwoNin9r said:


> @monogod, I'm realizing you do this a lot. I don't mean to start a beef but you really have an issue with people's opinions differing from yours, huh? Like you really take the time to write huge responses to posts that don't even really have a right or wrong answer.


since i'm not the only one that has disagreed with your position/opinion it's interesting you'd make it personal with me. fwiw, you're the one making the statements, we're simply replying to them. myself and others have simply rebutted the facts of your position and logic, whereas you've now made it personal. see the difference?

query: if there is no right or wrong answer then why do you keep insisting one is "better" and "more desirable"?

query: why is it ok for you to express a differing opinion from others but condemn others for doing the same?

query: why do you castigate others for "huge responses" to argue/support their position when you do the same?



TwoNin9er said:


> you know what, you're right. Flats are worse.


that's not my position. you're the one trying to prove one is "better" than the other.

my position is that "better/worse" is subjective and depends on each person. specifically, and as previously and clearly stated, my position is that each have their own unique benefits but in the end the pedal platform that is "better" is the one that gets one on their bike the most and results in the most enjoyment.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Man these debates are becoming comical, simply because each person is only correct when it comes to their own bike, no one elses. Skills can be learned to master any variant and keep up with those using a different variant.

All boils down to STFU and ride what u like, give ur opinion stop trying to make it fact cause it isn't.

I ride my bike and love it the way it is, I have my opinions based on what works for me. Now go ride and have fun!!!!


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

Ok...lets say I wanted to give flats a try. Which would I be better off getting...Welgo Mg-1 or Crank Bros 5050 2s?


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## idoc (Mar 27, 2014)

skankingbiker said:


> Ok...lets say I wanted to give flats a try. Which would I be better off getting...Welgo Mg-1 or Crank Bros 5050 2s?


Diety Compounds = low price, light, interchangeable parts, take rock strikes well, very good traction, and low profile


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

skankingbiker said:


> Ok...lets say I wanted to give flats a try. Which would I be better off getting...Welgo Mg-1 or Crank Bros 5050 2s?


I would suggest ones with sticky rubber shoes on them.

I just realized we might be board members of the same IMBA chapter so you could try mine or spares too.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

Going to throw a set of flats on my single speed rigid 69er to see what all the fuss is about.


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## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

pointerDixie214 said:


> Damn I never realized people would get butt hurt during a debate about flat vs. clipless. It's not like we're debating wheel size or something! lol


I think Matt Dennison's rule on wheel size can be applied here: Pick one and be a dick about it.


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## joel63 (May 13, 2012)

idoc said:


> Diety Compounds = low price, light, interchangeable parts, take rock strikes well, very good traction, and low profile


+1, I love them ! Took a couple rides to get used to them as they are flat, not concave. Stiff sole shoes such as 510's help with that.


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## chugachjed (May 20, 2010)

I switched to clips after several bad wrecks on flats when tired and pushing hard. Losing a foot at speed can, and will, leave you with a bad concussion. 

It took all of about 3 rides to get comfortable on clips (times) I can get my foot out of my clips as fast as I can put a foot down from flats (which I still ride). I've had some pretty bad endo's and other wrecks since switching but was never caught in my pedals I can kick the bike away faster than I can think about kicking the bike away.

In summary, ride what you like and don't be a dick.


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## RRRoubaix (Jan 30, 2011)

Huh. Interesting thread.
I'm a ex-roadie, now XC racer (well, more like a avg rider who happens to ride the XC course while a race is going on, lol). I'm EXTREMELY comfortable on clipless and can't think of an accident on MTB due to my pedals.
I don't do any big jumps or big travel stuff- really just XC and trail riding.
That said, my friends who have been teaching me better MTB skills, have been suggesting using flats for a year now.
So I have bought a pair of 5-10 Freeriders and some VP-69 pedals. We'll see how this goes.
I have a lot of misgivings/nervousness about switching- and I'm totally not convinced by some of the arguments, although I do agree that you'll learn better skills. (Before you clipless zealots pile on- if you can bunny hop on flats, you can bunny hop on clipless. The reverse is not a given).
I will definitely be out of my comfort zone.
Regardless whether or not this experiment works out, it will be interesting.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

L. Ron Hoover said:


> I think Matt Dennison's rule on wheel size can be applied here: Pick one and be a dick about it.


What I discovered:

-My 29r wheels are 3 in more than my 26r, and the 650B bike I want is in between.
-My feet are in some circumstances stuck to the bike that has cleats, not so on others unless Five Ten rubber counts.
-I'd be really bad at starting a religion or leading a tribe except for Hedonism because I've only been able to dislike wheel, bike and pedal combos that don't work well for my riding and style.

Should we move on to debating spandex? I won't deny some functional benefits but stand pretty firm that it's better on my daughter (teen gymnast) than me (middle aged dude).


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

skankingbiker said:


> Ok...lets say I wanted to give flats a try. Which would I be better off getting...Welgo Mg-1 or Crank Bros 5050 2s?


imo mg-1. 50/50 is the only cb product i've bought that i was disappointed with
Check out http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/platform-pedal-shootout-best-flat-607155.html


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

TwoNin9r said:


> @monogod, I'm realizing you do this a lot. I don't mean to start a beef but you really have an issue with people's opinions differing from yours, huh? Like you really take the time to write huge responses to posts that don't even really have a right or wrong answer.
> 
> Posted via mobile


spot on


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

RRRoubaix said:


> So I have bought a pair of 5-10 Freeriders and some VP-69 pedals.
> I will definitely be out of my comfort zone.
> Regardless whether or not this experiment works out, it will be interesting.


the 5.10 freeriders are great shoes, and shoes can make/break riding with flats. same with pins.

out of comfort zone = exciting, interesting, & learning.

and that's why we ride bikes in the first place! :thumbsup:


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## MarkMac (Nov 28, 2012)

For about $200 anyone can decide for themself which they like better, flats or clipless.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

I was out of control yesterday going down a steep, slippery clay, slightly off-camber downhill section. I thought I was toast, but I put my inside foot out to help regain control, then put it back on the pedal and kept going sweet.

Do I ride flats or clips?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

David R said:


> I was out of control yesterday going down a steep, slippery clay, slightly off-camber downhill section. I thought I was toast, but I put my inside foot out to help regain control, then put it back on the pedal and kept going sweet.
> 
> Do I ride flats or clips?


42.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

bitflogger said:


> Should we move on to debating spandex? I won't deny some functional benefits but stand pretty firm that it's better on my daughter (teen gymnast) than me (middle aged dude).


Pics or it didnt happen.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

abelfonseca said:


> Pics or it didnt happen.


I get the importance of photographic evidence, but think sparing the public photos of middle aged men is decency for the general public just like sparing the 13 y.o. is decency for her.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

How can I possibly ride my bike until this question is settled?


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## peteer01 (Apr 26, 2005)

Repack Rider said:


> How can I possibly ride my bike until this question is settled?


toe clips


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Repack Rider said:


> How can I possibly ride my bike until this question is settled?


simple. remove your cranks and ride it like a strider.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

monogod said:


> 42.


Bazinga!


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

formica said:


> This article here explores a lot of the pros and cons and myths and science about pedaling. It is an interesting read, and doesn't necessarily promote one over the other.
> https://www.bikejames.com/strength/...-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


That article clearly promotes flat pedals over clipless and the author clearly doesnt understand biomechanics.

There are dozens and dozens of peer reviewed scientific studies showing how using the ilial psoas muscle can increase power output significantly. You simply can't do this with flat pedals. PowerCranks and scientific studies


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> Flat pedal design has improved tremendously in the past decade or so.
> 
> I still don't use them. I still don't care what anyone else uses.


 I ride both. Horses for courses. Ride what ya like.


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## cassiopia (Nov 29, 2009)

Flats, allows me an easy pedal contact after a dab, more adjustability for my leg position, I can use any part of my foot to pedal with or stand. Less strain when I ride down hill and more control


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## jhtopilko (Oct 20, 2012)

desertred said:


> Flats gave me the confidence that I could bail without being "stuck" to my pedals. The bottom line is that you can ride with either as long as you have the confidence to get out of a jam when need be. I have not had an issue with falling off of platforms. A good set of shoes with the proper height of pins on your pedals should hold your feet in place. Even with my heels pointed down, my feet stay on the pedals. I use a (fairly) budget combo of Teva Pinners shoes and Wellgo MG-1 pedals. As my abilities and confidence to handle technical terrain have increased, I'm leaning towards moving back to clipless.


I feel the same way. I keep my shoes handy, but haven't used them in over a year.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

I ride both fairly seamlessly. Trail riding I am always clipped in, and I prefer it. No matter what anyone says, or studies they cite, blagh blagh, I know that I climb way the hell better clipped in. Period. Its also very useful to be attached to pedals through rough stuff, and I rarely ever don't come unclipped when I want to. I ride flats for DJ, DH and park riding, just because being in the air (significant air) clipped in still freaks me out, but I'm getting to the point where I think I might look into clipless platforms and try them out for downhill stuff.


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## rachmak (Jul 1, 2013)

i pretty much have a pedal wrench in my trunk at all times


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## rizalred (Nov 6, 2009)

flat for life


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## j4m3z (Aug 17, 2007)

I love you.


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## Dirt Gnome (Apr 28, 2014)

I started on flats when I was a kid on a BMX bike. 

When I got into mountain biking my hard tail had toe clips. I still love that old bike and those pedals. It's really nice not having to own a bike specific shoe when you're just cruising in town and not neccessarily going up the mountain.

I switched over to SPDs about 6 months ago. My first few rides I fell all over the place... mostly at a complete stand still lol. A little embarassing, but once I got the hang of it I felt like I could finally understand the appeal of clipless.

Today, I put some Chromag Contact flat pedals on my new rig and I'm gonna give them a whirl. I'll probably swoop some 5.10s tomorrow and see how it goes. 

Variety is the spice of life!


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## Hughesmonster (Apr 15, 2014)

I think the truly skilled riders are proficient on both and can adapt to whatever they have. Why limit yourself to one skill set?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Zac808 (Apr 1, 2010)

Ive been clipped in for the past 10 years. If and when I do fall its always on the left side. Im gonna give flats a try tomorrow at Gooseberry Mesa.

cent frum my fone so don't cumplane about spelling or grammer


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## SDMTB'er (Feb 11, 2014)

Zac808 said:


> Ive been clipped in for the past 10 years. If and when I do fall its always on the left side. Im gonna give flats a try tomorrow at Gooseberry Mesa.
> 
> cent frum my fone so don't cumplane about spelling or grammer


Have you tried the silver mufti release SPD cleats? MUCH easier to unclip.


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## Zac808 (Apr 1, 2010)

SDMTB'er said:


> Have you tried the silver mufti release SPD cleats? MUCH easier to unclip.


Ive got some old Richey spd's. They were my first clipless pedals and still rocking them. I did pick up some eggbeaters. I havent tried them on the account that my LBS said they may break on me because I weigh 204lbs dry. I will look into the multi's though. Thanks.

cent frum my fone so don't cumplane about spelling or grammer


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## slide mon (Jul 18, 2005)

I switched to flats on my full suspension a year and a half ago (after 9 years on clipless.) 

I almost immediately felt better on downhills, catching air on parts of trails that I had been riding for years but had never gotten air on. I also felt better cornering, possibly due to slightly lower center of gravity and ability to drop my heals more on rubber soled shoes. I got a lot better drifting through loose stuff.

On technical ups though, the kind you can't get through with momentum, I had a serious setback. it took my 6 months to get decent at it and I still struggle on some sections that I had cleared for years with clipless.

My shins and calves took a beating in the first 6 months or so on flats. I started wearing my knee pads down around my shins because I was picking up way too many scars. 

Now I'm riding a combination of both. I pulled out an old hardtail and have been riding that with clipless (even though it was the ultimate wheelie bike with flats), and my roadbikes are clipless, but I'm sticking with flats on my full suspension, although if I wasn't lazy there are a lot of rides where full suspension with clipless would be perfect.

-slide


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## Gallain (Sep 26, 2005)

Clipless on the downhill bike, flats for my mountain bikes. Steel clips on my pub bike. 
Used to ride with spd on my xc and flats on my DH but switched 2 years ago. Love being clipped in on the big bike. 

Skickat från min Nexus 5 via Tapatalk


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## Bturner906 (May 31, 2014)

I haven't used clip less yet as I just got back into mountain biking. I did buy some platform pedals though from Welgo. They are wide & have spikes on them. I bought a pair of mountain biking shoes as well & with this setup I feel very planted. I don't loose a footing to often. The trails are real technical here in north Ga, so for now I'm comfortable on platforms. I don't want to try clueless though & I will at some point.


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## hankscorpio (Jun 20, 2012)

I just want to chime in and say that every single opinion stated so far is wrong.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I usually use clipless, except when it's really cold on my fatbike. I used flats and 5.10s this week at Trestle in Colorado and I noticed some issues. One was that occasionally your foot gets a little out of place and it throws you off a lot on the jumps, it's not easy to get it back into position, although it did stay in position admirably (for flats) in rough terrain. Another was that occasionally somehow the pedal would occasionally "flip", as my foot pressure somehow varied with a jump and possibly a slightly misplaced foot (described above). This, while a little rarer, was a bigger problem. The biggest issue though was how you have to pedal much harder to get the same speed for the jumps. It's more work, and in the early part of the day it's not as noticeable, but with clips you can put in a few more solid pedal strokes and recover speed when something goes wrong (come across a slow rider and have to wait and start out again from a stop). At the end of the day, this was really starting get me, as I got too tired to put in the pedal strokes to keep making the doubles, which is never a problem for me on clipless. If anything, it's easier for me to overshoot with clipless. I'm comfortable on the gnarliest terrain in clipless, south mountain az, goat camp az, north star double blacks, etc...


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## TAOS1 (Feb 5, 2013)

SPD's since 1996 and for life


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Using platform pedals can lead to bad habits, I once knew a guy who switched to flats and then started biting his nails and leaving the water running while brushing his teeth.


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## peteer01 (Apr 26, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> leaving the water running while brushing his teeth.


That's just bad technique. :nono:


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## WalterN (Sep 9, 2004)

How did I get sucked into this thread? I just just hit the end...now I have to post something!

I'm a self-hating clip-less rider. Ex-BMX-er turned MTB-er in the early 90's. Toe-clips, then SPD's when they got big. Been riding on clipless ever since. 20 years later, I'm kinda wishing I never switched. I ride flats on my DJ bike and love it. I've tried switching back on trail, but have WAY too many old habits based on years of being clipped in.

THE PROBLEM WITH CLIPLESS: I can get my foot out of the pedal about 99% of the time without even thinking about it, but it's that 1% that's terrifying. I fell in the parking lot last night while wheelie-ing at low speed and couldn't get out fast enough. I don't care how good you are or how long you have been riding - if you are clipped in, you are always going to have the occasional (however rare) low-speed flop crash. 

THE QUESTION: Does this really matter? Depends on when and where it happens. Met a rider recently who was off bike for 12 months after flopping over on a log ride and smashed his knee cap. That's the scary part for me. I ride pretty much everything the trail has to offer, so that 1% could get me killed.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

This is personal question but I will answer anyways. I ride clipless SPDs and have no desire to change. My feet come out exactly when I need them to without thinking about it, and cannot remember having issues with this since the "break in" period.

The break in period was a different story. I fell over trying to get off my bike, on my bike, slow fall overs, fast fall overs, uncliping on the ground, in the air, and eventually on the bike. My wife and kids would laugh at me practicing on the grass. But, now it is second nature and I really like clipless.


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## peteer01 (Apr 26, 2005)

OLx6 said:


> The break in period was a different story.


With my balance and natural ability, I would probably die of old age before I left the break in period you describe. When I fall off the bike on flats, I know it's because of a lack of natural talent, coordination and ability.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

peteer01 said:


> With my balance and natural ability, I would probably die of old age before I left the break in period you describe. When I fall off the bike on flats, I know it's because of a lack of natural talent, coordination and ability.


I don't know you but would be confident if you have enough coordination to mountain bike you could learn clipless. The real question would be if you want to.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

Clipless? Flats? I guarantee I can do anything on my mountain bike with SPD's that guys on flats can. I know there are guys who ride flats that can do anything on their bikes that I can with my SPD's.

Personal preference is what it comes down to. I'm just glad the SPD or flat's guy is riding his mountain bike.


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## velo99 (Apr 18, 2014)

Hey Goat... Can you do a Superman with SPD`s ? 
I am just yanking your chain man. 
I couldn't do a Superman even with Superman flying alongside me lending a hand. 
Heads up wheels down bro.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

velo99 said:


> Hey Goat... Can you do a Superman with SPD`s ?
> I am just yanking your chain man.
> I couldn't do a Superman even with Superman flying alongside me lending a hand.
> Heads up wheels down bro.


:lol:


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

velo99 said:


> Hey Goat... Can you do a Superman with SPD`s ?


Back in the day I would bust out no-footers with my SPDs while riding my MTB at the BMX track.

Now a days I surprise myself if both wheels come off the ground at the same time...


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## ortep66 (Aug 21, 2011)

SPD/Time pedals for 13 years and finally tried flats but failed. Like WalterN I could get out pretty much at will but that 1% was always there. I felt being clipped in was stopping me from getting to the next level of technical riding. I only ride for fun- no racing- so I'm not concerned with XC aspect of riding - I love rocks, stunts, air, etc. Finally three years ago committed to flats. Bought some Strailine pedals and five tens and been on flats for past three years. Keep planning to try my Time pedals again, but riding flats is so much more enjoyable to Me, I feel free and relaxed. There is a learning curve but was well worth the wait.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

velo99 said:


> Hey Goat... Can you do a Superman with SPD`s ?
> I am just yanking your chain man.
> I couldn't do a Superman even with Superman flying alongside me lending a hand.
> Heads up wheels down bro.


After riding SPD pedals for 22+ years, getting out and back into my pedals is the least of my concerns if I were to try a Superman....!!! 

This past spring in Moab, I got lazy and stuck my front wheel in a crack that I knew I should have popped over. It stuck and I went over face first. Managed to clip out of both pedals and vault over my handle bars, landing on my feet. I have so much muscle memory getting into and out of these pedals its just as easy for me to clip out as it is for folks to take their foot off the pedal.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Absolutely! (although its going to open a whole can of worms/neg reps)
> 
> Clipless users tend to have very high seat posts and very low handlebar height, and even inverted stems for "maximum efficiency". Which means that their toes tend to be pointed down. Which means they have most of their weight on their handlebars and not on their feet. Which means they are riding a completely unstable platform. As soon as they deviate from anything other than a smooth line, this unstable platform usually goes where it wants taking them with it. It usually results in the front tire all of a sudden taking a wrong turn (youtube is full of videos of this) and/or the rider going OTB. Due to the amount of weight on the front, the shift in the center of gravity to the front, and the inability to react in time for your feet to release - all this results in a wreck. I have seen this from people not making it up a hill. I have seen this from people washing out in a corner. I have seen this from people attempting to go down a hill. I have seen this from people trying to get over a small object. The most embarrassing is the people who fall in a parking lot or at slow speeds. The worst part is that this is acceptable to the point where new clipless users are told "You will wreck over and over and over... but its not the pedals, its because you haven't practiced in the pedals." You barely wreck now, but how many wrecks did it take for you to get to this point?
> 
> ...


Where I ride, nearly everybody is on clipless & nobody has high seat posts, low handlebars, or inverted stems. One guy rides with flat bars, but he's also one of the best technical riders I've seen. The only ones riding flats are noobs. My observation is pretty much the opposite of yours.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

First ride on my flats = total disaster. I picked up a set of Welgo MG-1s and some Teva mtb shoes. Despite trying to ride "heels down", the back end kept bucking me around like a bronco. I am not talking about "slipping" off the pedals, rather, the back end bouncing everywhere and being launched forward by my saddle smacking my a$$. Many instances of balls making love to my stem, and frequent pedal whip-arounds that made mincemeat out of my calves. 

As to the whole pedaling efficiency/power, I didn't notice anything significantly different on the flats, as I was still able to generate an upstroke by scooping my pedals back. However, climbing was a whole different story. I do not understand how one is supposed to climb a single speed up a steep technical climb without being able to generate power on the upstroke and lift the rear end over roots, rocks, and other trail obstacles. Many stall outs and lots of calve/shin contact with the pedals.

My legs felt like "dead weight", as all they could do was push down. I am not even talking about bunny hoping, but I sorely missed being able to pull the back end "up and over" rocks and other trail obstacles.

Where, pray tell, does one go to learn the elusive "proper technique" for flats that I keep reading about? I intend to give this some more time, but I am really at a loss re: controlling the rear end.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

I've ridden SPDs forever, but just did 355 miles on the Great Allegheny Passage/C&0 Canal Towpath. I set up my hardtail mtn bike with cyclocross tires and flat pedals. Because we were carrying personal gear for 10 days (we stayed at B&Bs but had no sag wagon or outside support), I wanted to have my regular Keens do double duty as bike shoes and after-bike shoes. We did some riding around in Pittsburgh on the bike paths before the trip began and I really started to worry about sore feet and hot spots under the ball of my foot. Once we began the ride, we rode between 30 and 60 miles a day, just cranking along on essentially flat paths with many hours in the saddle. However, as the first day went along, my foot position on the pedals relaxed to a more natural position, settling a little further back on the foot, centered between the ball of the foot and the arch, rather than more on the ball of the foot with SPDs. No hot spots, no sore feet, and most importantly my lower back did not hurt AT ALL, even with long hours in the saddle every day. 
This has really made me want to re-think SPDs and trying flats for my regular mtn bike riding.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

skankingbiker said:


> First ride on my flats = total disaster. I picked up a set of Welgo MG-1s and some Teva mtb shoes. Despite trying to ride "heels down", the back end kept bucking me around like a bronco. I am not talking about "slipping" off the pedals, rather, the back end bouncing everywhere and being launched forward by my saddle smacking my a$$. Many instances of balls making love to my stem, and frequent pedal whip-arounds that made mincemeat out of my calves.
> 
> As to the whole pedaling efficiency/power, I didn't notice anything significantly different on the flats, as I was still able to generate an upstroke by scooping my pedals back. However, climbing was a whole different story. I do not understand how one is supposed to climb a single speed up a steep technical climb without being able to generate power on the upstroke and lift the rear end over roots, rocks, and other trail obstacles. Many stall outs and lots of calve/shin contact with the pedals.
> 
> ...


Maybe you need to take a skills clinic. Getting smacked and bucked probably has more to do with body position and where your weight is than what you have on your feet.

Sent from my iPad - Stupid autocorrect!


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

formica said:


> Maybe you need to take a skills clinic. Getting smacked and bucked probably has more to do with body position and where your weight is than what you have on your feet.


Weight is between wheels, I ride in attack position. Shoes are fine.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

try a bmx bike, skankingbkr. formica is right. it's about weight transfer and cog. don't give up! you can rock flats and you'll notice the ladies will dig you more as well..


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## MrMentallo (Apr 10, 2013)

June Bug said:


> I've ridden SPDs forever, but just did 355 miles on the Great Allegheny Passage/C&0 Canal Towpath. I set up my hardtail mtn bike with cyclocross tires and flat pedals. Because we were carrying personal gear for 10 days (we stayed at B&Bs but had no sag wagon or outside support), I wanted to have my regular Keens do double duty as bike shoes and after-bike shoes. We did some riding around in Pittsburgh on the bike paths before the trip began and I really started to worry about sore feet and hot spots under the ball of my foot. Once we began the ride, we riding between 30 and 60 miles a day, just cranking along on essentially flat paths with many hours in the saddle. However, as the first day went along, my foot position on the pedals relaxed to a more natural position, settling a little further back on the foot, centered between the ball of the foot and the arch, rather than more on the ball of the foot with SPDs. No hot spots, no sore feet, and most importantly my lower back did not hurt AT ALL, even with long hours in the saddle every day.
> This has really made me want to re-think SPDs and trying flats for my regular mtn bike riding.


I've been riding flats here in Austin for a few years now as I feel more comfortable in them due to a youth spent on bmx bikes. I recently was passed down a pair of candy clips and got a pair of shoes for them for a good deal. I've been through the introductory fall on your ass every ride a few times period that new clipless riders get and am finally starting to get muscle memory down. I've ended up figuring out that the whole clipless vs flats argument is highly situational depending on what kind of riding you will be doing. Hitting up City Park, rough parts of the Greenbelt or any other unmentionable techy trails that require moving your feet around on the pedal or dabbing? Flats it is. Walnut Creek, main trail of the Greenbelt, or any place that is more flow than rock shelves and babyheads? Clips it is.

I've found that pedaling efficiency is a tradeoff that I can do without if I am relying of pure technique to get through a course like RGOG at Pace Bend or City Park. I'd rather have the ability to quickly unclip and either put a foot down or throw the bike away from me if I bail hard or endo. If I'm doing Walnut or Reimers without the black loop, clips it is. I advocate both to keep the skill set built up due to cheating with clips. It's doing a proper bunny hop vs just lifting with your clips issue for me.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

skankingbiker said:


> Weight is between wheels, I ride in attack position. Shoes are fine.


Well, first lesson from flats; apparently my body position is all wrong and my weight is too far forward/upward.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

MrMentallo said:


> I've been riding flats here in Austin for a few years now as I feel more comfortable in them due to a youth spent on bmx bikes. I recently was passed down a pair of candy clips and got a pair of shoes for them for a good deal. I've been through the introductory fall on your ass every ride a few times period that new clipless riders get and am finally starting to get muscle memory down. I've ended up figuring out that the whole clipless vs flats argument is highly situational depending on what kind of riding you will be doing. Hitting up City Park, rough parts of the Greenbelt or any other unmentionable techy trails that require moving your feet around on the pedal or dabbing? Flats it is. Walnut Creek, main trail of the Greenbelt, or any place that is more flow than rock shelves and babyheads? Clips it is.
> 
> I've found that pedaling efficiency is a tradeoff that I can do without if I am relying of pure technique to get through a course like RGOG at Pace Bend or City Park. I'd rather have the ability to quickly unclip and either put a foot down or throw the bike away from me if I bail hard or endo. If I'm doing Walnut or Reimers without the black loop, clips it is. I advocate both to keep the skill set built up due to cheating with clips. It's doing a proper bunny hop vs just lifting with your clips issue for me.


Maybe I'll keep the flats on the hardtail, and the spds on the full suspension. I'm retired now and want to do some long in-town rides using the hard tail --Shoal Creek, Lady Bird Lake, Southern Walnut Creek, back around to home in north Austin.

I did try flats one time on the mtn bike, but had to work hard to get past the habit of lifting to bring the pedal around. Maybe I'll practice some more at Walnut to get the hang of it. jake and jenny (Dirt Dojo) make it look so easy.

I think you are right to cultivate skills and comfort with both, and then use whichever platform is the right tool for the job.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

June Bug said:


> However, as the first day went along, my foot position on the pedals relaxed to a more natural position, settling a little further back on the foot, centered between the ball of the foot and the arch, rather than more on the ball of the foot with SPDs. No hot spots, no sore feet, and most importantly my lower back did not hurt AT ALL, even with long hours in the saddle every day.
> This has really made me want to re-think SPDs and trying flats for my regular mtn bike riding.


perhaps your cleats aren't properly positioned.


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## MrMentallo (Apr 10, 2013)

June Bug said:


> I did try flats one time on the mtn bike, but had to work hard to get past the habit of lifting to bring the pedal around. Maybe I'll practice some more at Walnut to get the hang of it. jake and jenny (Dirt Dojo) make it look so easy.


One good area to work out some skills on flats at Walnut Creek is the BMX loop. Taking those whoops all in a row and not losing speed is a good way to build your skill set. You don't have to take the actual pump track, there are a few whoops that you can session to get a feel for the difference between pedal types and riding style. Try dropping your heels a little more than you are used to. This makes you carry more of your weight in your feet versus your hands and lowers your center of gravity. This enables you to pump the hills building momentum. It's almost like pushing your weight into the incline of the hill with your heels and unweighting at the crest. Skaters use this same technique to ride half pipes.


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## Inamik75 (Oct 21, 2013)

Like the idea of clipless but like one of the posters said that 1% of the time that you would need to release quick puts me off. So for me it's flats with strapless toe clips which get me a bit close to the clipless benefits. The difference with the strapless toe clips and without is quite noticeable for me especially on the climbs.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Inamik75 said:


> Like the idea of clipless but like one of the posters said that 1% of the time that you would need to release quick puts me off. So for me it's flats with strapless toe clips which get me a bit close to the clipless benefits. The difference with the strapless toe clips and without is quite noticeable for me especially on the climbs.


Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I laughed my ass off reading this so maybe your joking.


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## Inamik75 (Oct 21, 2013)

used to being poked fun at with my strapless toe clips, but it works for me, done same hills on flats alone and slower, so i pass my pals with their clipless on the hills which puts a big fat smile on my face and that's all that matters!



GlazedHam said:


> Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I laughed my ass off reading this so maybe your joking.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Inamik75 said:


> i pass my pals with their clipless on the hills


you'd probably pass them with flats or clipless as well.

ride with some cat1 guys and report back.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

My initial impressions after a weekend riding with flats:

1. Its like re-learning how to mtb from scratch. I quickly discovered that I needed to take my speed waaaay down and concentrate on every pedal stroke and focus on keeping correct body position, instead of blasting down the trail as fast as my legs can carry me.
2. Flats immediately made me realize my weight was too far forward, and that my riding position was all off. 
3. Positioning my feet with the pedal axle in the middle, combined with a more rearward riding position completely changed my pedaling technique. I am truly amazed at how much power I can generate "pushing through" my glutes and hips. The knee pain I usually get from mashing was nonexistent.
4. Keeping in the rearward "attack" position is tiring, and made me realize how poor core strength I have. 
5. I don't miss "pulling up" on the flats, as I can "scoop" back.
6. Climbing moderate hills is no problem with the increase power output from the new pedaling position.
7. Long technical climbs seem impossible. I really do miss the ability to "pull up" here and often stalled out. 
8. The bigger problem on climbs is when the rear gets hung up on a root or rock. Where I would usually just lift the rear up with my leg, as I moved forward, now, I am stalling out, as I cant get the back to do anything, or, when I try and scoop the back up, I lose momentum and stop. Interested in hearing how flat riders deal with this situation.
9. My feet stuck to the pedals *most* of the time. However, even with the heels down technique, I came off on some downhills...very disconcerting experience. I am sure this will get better with time. BUT, my bigger problem was foot ejection when pedaling after hitting something in the trail...my rearward foot kept coming off....not sure how to prevent this.
10. I have no confidence doing anything that involves the rear of my bike leaving the ground, as my feet simply do not stay plated.
11. The riding experience is completely different, in some ways good, in others not so much. Riding in a rear-weighted attack position is a whole different feeling/experience. Really enjoyed carving burms and turns without feeling like my wheels would wash. If nothing else, this was a good experiment, as I already uncovered poor body positioning. But, I plan to stick with this for a while.

Any tips/suggestions on 1) how to lift the rear on a technical climb and 2) how to avoid having feet ejected when *pedaling* (not coasting) over bumpy terrain would be most appreciated.


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## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

monogod said:


> perhaps your cleats aren't properly positioned.


I don't know of any clipless shoe that will allow you to put the cleat far enough back that the pedal axle is right under your instep like it would be on flats, so I think that's going to be an inherent difference between them. The best I've found are the 5-10 Maltese Falcons and at its furthest back the cleat is more at the rear of the ball of my foot than under the instep. That bit further back you can put your foot on a flat pedal can make a big difference depending on one's body mechanics. I flip back and forth between clipless and flats relatively often and I definitely prefer the foot position on flats.


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## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

skankingbiker said:


> My initial impressions after a weekend riding with flats:
> 
> 1. Its like re-learning how to mtb from scratch. I quickly discovered that I needed to take my speed waaaay down and concentrate on every pedal stroke and focus on keeping correct body position, instead of blasting down the trail as fast as my legs can carry me.
> 2. Flats immediately made me realize my weight was too far forward, and that my riding position was all off.
> ...


I flip back and forth between clips and flats and there are definitely technique differences to get the best of of each type. I ride pretty technical trails (everyone says that, I know, hahaha!) and haven't experienced these issues. Getting the back end up over stuff on climbs is just a matter of practice in unweighting the rear end without actually pulling up. I know how to _do_ it but explaining is a bit harder. I think I kind of push the front end forward while letting my legs bend at the knee so that most of the weight is off the pedals. I gotta go try and analyze how I do it next ride. The technique is essentially the same as with clipless but clipless allows one to "cheat" a little bit by actually pulling up. Note, i don't consider that cheating or poor technique, it's just different. Lee McCormack does a pretty good job of explaining it in his book, I think.

I don't have an issue with my feet slipping off while pedaling on bumpy terrain. I mean, it happens occasionally but it's not a regular thing. Gotta try to sort out why. I do have a pretty grippy shoe-pedal combo so may that helps.


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## Ramborage (May 7, 2013)

I've been riding M540's for over a year now. I made some changes to my bike and realized that I'm no longer pulling up while climbing most hills and would be nice to have my feet free to do some obsticals. I bought a pair of 510's and cranfield brothers crampon magnesium pedals. So far all I did was ride the street and can tell I'm going to like them. They're so thin that my downward stroke I was reaching to far now so had to lower the seat which is even a bigger bonus for me. My handlebars were slightly lower before and I felt like I was too high on the bike. No I feel like I'm seated just right in the cockpit. Also these pedals are so sticky that even my tennis shoes I was wearing weren't leaving the pedals. I can't wait to try these out on the trails this weekend!!!


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## ortep66 (Aug 21, 2011)

skankingbiker said:


> My initial impressions after a weekend riding with flats:
> 
> 1. Its like re-learning how to mtb from scratch. I quickly discovered that I needed to take my speed waaaay down and concentrate on every pedal stroke and focus on keeping correct body position, instead of blasting down the trail as fast as my legs can carry me.
> 2. Flats immediately made me realize my weight was too far forward, and that my riding position was all off.
> ...


The above description accurately describes my experience when I made the switch. All I can say is that it gets better with each ride. I really loved the feeling of freedom with flats and that is why I continued and still continue to stay with them. I have been riding flats now for 3 years after 13 years of being clipped in. When making the switch I immediately missed the control I had with the bike, but have since closed the gap considerably. The only thing I'm not as good with still is climbing the long steep technical rocky stuff, which I only encounter once in a while.

Stick with it. I read a bunch of articles in reference to tips and one of my favorites is ride with heavy feet and light hands. I had fun relearning how to ride my bike again and enjoy it even more now. I keep thinking about trying clipless again just to see how much better I could be, but really don't want to.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

check out lee mccormack's site, leelikesbikes and betteride


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