# Doing things on ebikes that you cant do on a mtb



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Ok, lets explore what riding you can do on an ebike that you cant do on a standard mtb.

I rode up a stony river bed yesterday that I would have had no hope of riding up without the engine. 

Ok I could have ridden up the river bed on my mtb but it would have not been enjoyable and i








would have had push at least 50%. 

So... what new terrain has opened up to you because of the engine?


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Honestly, nothing new for me just yet. I've been using my ebike for recovery rides. 

I did start riding harder trails because my ebike helps me climb. However not all trails are ebike legal in my area so I tend to use mine for recovery rides. I only put 100 miles on my ebike for 2022


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## LVLBTY (Jul 15, 2020)

plummet said:


> Ok, lets explore what riding you can do on an ebike that you cant do on a standard mtb.


Plug it in.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Ive had my ebike for about a month now and the biggest thing for me is just riding longer and having much more fun sessioning trails. My progression has exponentially increased in a very short time. Steep climbs that I previously walked are now handled easily as well. Still pedal my other bikes quite a bit though.


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

I was using my ebike for long rides or recovery rides, and my regular bike for everything else; however, a few months ago, I hurt my back, and as I am recovering I can only ride my ebike as the torque required for the regular bike is too much and causes problems. I would have been months without mountain biking without the ebike. I am so grateful to have it.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Sorry but semantics are important. Couldn’t help myself. Carry on.
=sParty


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

There's less planning with rides. Let's go here, let's go there. With regular bike, I have to contemplate is that trail worth it? Is that section worth the climb today?

Also who I ride with is different. Before if someone asks me to ride, I would check with who, where, whats the plan? Some groups are too pedally for my taste, or this group loves the steeps, but all the climbs will kill me. Now I'm game with anyone and anywhere.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Bikeventures said:


> There's less planning with rides. Let's go here, let's go there. With regular bike, I have to contemplate is that trail worth it? Is that section worth the climb today?
> 
> Also who I ride with is different. Before if someone asks me to ride, I would check with who, where, whats the plan? Some groups are too pedally for my taste, or this group loves the steeps, but all the climbs will kill me. Now I'm game with anyone and anywhere.


This 100% nailed it for me as well. 

Even when I was much more fit than I am now, I would be bummed if I “wasted” a long climb on a boring descent on my normal mtb. Now who cares, just turn up the power and go hit a different trail. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tomfitz (Apr 23, 2012)

I just got one and got maybe 5 rides. 40 years ago I rode anywhere but within the last 5 years I have had to check elevation change so there wasn’t too much hab. Now l’m planning on riding everything it goes straight up just pick a good line. I still will ride my other bikes.


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## tomfitz (Apr 23, 2012)

I just started loading up for a trip bringing pads I have not been using for some time. I am wearing a backpack I haven’t been wearing for awhile and will fill it up for long rides I haven’t been able to do.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

Bikeventures said:


> There's less planning with rides. . . Now I'm game with anyone and anywhere.





RBoardman said:


> . . .who cares, just turn up the power and go hit a different trail.


us wandering in the desert -
me: wanna see where that takes us?
her: try to catch me!


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## NeedleBanger (8 mo ago)

😲 You're riding terrain like that in January?!!

I'm just going to forget I ever saw that...


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

NeedleBanger said:


> 😲 You're riding terrain like that in January?!!
> 
> I'm just going to forget I ever saw that...


Its summer here in NZ..... maybe you need to plan a winter holiday in the sun!

Ps I've still ridden every day this year so far.


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## weeksy950 (Jan 11, 2012)

Towing my lad on his DH bike to the top of DH runs to session more practice... Instead of 3 runs, he got 7 practice runs on a course he'd never seen... 

2nd place finish.. 

Ebike, bargain. 

I even got to ride it down as there's a selection of trails down it... 

I didn't like it.... it rides, well, meh... lol. Happily, it's the wifes bike, not mine  

But it was great at uplift.


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## one piece crank (Sep 29, 2008)

Run out of battery.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Just got new Hecklers for myself & my wife. One rental at Wilder Ranch did it. I used to drive 2 hours, take 1 lap, then I'd be knackered & would head home. With the rentals, we stayed out over 4 hours, still pedaling, still working hard, but having more fun, and wanting more. We returned the rentals to Santa Cruz about half an hour late, as we had gotten lost, and didn't care. 2 months later, with the 25% off sale... we got new bikes. Now, it has been raining solid.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

levity said:


> us wandering in the desert -
> me: wanna see where that takes us?
> her: try to catch me!
> View attachment 2016488


Any overheating issues for the motor/battery in the desert


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sparticus said:


> Sorry but semantics are important. Couldn’t help myself. Carry on.
> =sParty


You are wrong. 
Fight me!

😜


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Sparticus said:


> View attachment 2016449
> 
> Sorry but semantics are important. Couldn’t help myself. Carry on.
> =sParty


This Semantic is obviously not entirely correct. But carry on.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slapheadmofo said:


> You are wrong.
> Fight me!
> 
> 😜


There are folks here on MTBR that I’m willing to take on, Slappy.
It’s a big club — you ain’t in it. 
=sParty


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

There's one trail system about 30mins from my house. When I use to ride a mountain bike there, the climbs were so steep and brutal, but the downhills amazing! It would take me about a month to forget how brutal the climbs are there. 2hrs there on mountain bike = about 12miles. I believe this is why not many mountain bikers ride there. On my ebike, 2hrs = 21 miles or so and I can easily ride there every weekend and have a blast! 

Another big bonus is when riding in groups, fitness is not a huge issue. Ride the mode that keeps you close to the leaders and everyone gets to the top close to the same time smiling. Chat a few seconds and enjoy the downhill! Repeat as many times as possible and the entire group usually will have amazing time. Not many have an off day on an ebike, just go up a mode in power.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I think this question can be realtive to each rider. If it extends what you can do it does not matter if it is a 10 mile bike trail or Danny McKaskill's epic one year rides, three days a week,


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

one piece crank said:


> Run out of battery.


Haven't come close on any of my rides. But I'm not into 50 mile marathons either. I'm using 25-33% on average ride with a lot of max power too. It's more likely to happen if I go on multiple rides and forget to charge. Right now I'm charging once a week after a couple of rides. 700w battery though.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Bikeventures said:


> Haven't come close on any of my rides. But I'm not into 50 mile marathons either. I'm using 25-33% on average ride with a lot of max power too. It's more likely to happen if I go on multiple rides and forget to charge. Right now I'm charging once a week after a couple of rides. 700w battery though.


I think my thought experiment is to explore what trails of riding can be opened up to me that otherwise wouldn't be.

Decent enduro bikes did a similar thing. Enable me to ride track I otherwise thought not ridable, not enjoyable.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Man I just bought a 29r to get back into MTB after 10+ years and all this ebike talk has me thinking I should have gotten one because I’m not a fan of climbing. Eventually I may have to get one just to enjoy the ride that much more without killing myself. But I’m looking fwd to the new bike and getting back into shape.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

My ebike has enabled me to keep up with our fast group for more than two climbs and still breathe. This has also allowed me to be fresher on the downs and keep sight of the quick guys for two to four corners. This two to four corner window may not sound like much but from this I have learnt so much so very quickly. I've become quite a bit quicker on entry, mid and exit speed and overall more confident with my line choice and how hard I bury the bike into corners. When I ride my acoustic bike I am noticeably quicker on the downs (and still hurting just as much as ever going up).


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## BEE_MTB_PNW (Dec 12, 2019)

I've been contemplating ebike for a while but the weight aspect has concerned me. Adding 15 lbs.... 50% heavier is substantial. How does the extra weight affect HOW you ride going down? How does it affect lines you take? How does it affect handling, taking corners and whatnot? Obv it's going to be super planted, so I'm sure that inspires a lot of confidence and maybe you even attack more confidently, if not even aggressively...? Obv it's awesome going up and that's the reason to make the switch - but how do you compare the handling, lines, etc with Amish bike when you don't have to pedal?


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

BEE_MTB_PNW said:


> I've been contemplating ebike for a while but the weight aspect has concerned me. Adding 15 lbs.... 50% heavier is substantial. How does the extra weight affect HOW you ride going down? How does it affect lines you take? How does it affect handling, taking corners and whatnot? Obv it's going to be super planted, so I'm sure that inspires a lot of confidence and maybe you even attack more confidently, if not even aggressively...? Obv it's awesome going up and that's the reason to make the switch - but how do you compare the handling, lines, etc with Amish bike when you don't have to pedal?


I have a Kenevo SL, at 42lbs not much difference in weight. It is a lot slacker, longer and has more travel than my normal bike, so I can't compare apples to apples. I really like having the option of a poppy playful normal bike, and a big beast of an ebike. SL's are not for everyone, but perhaps you can demo one.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

springs said:


> My ebike has enabled me to keep up with our fast group for more than two climbs and still breathe. This has also allowed me to be fresher on the downs and keep sight of the quick guys for two to four corners. This two to four corner window may not sound like much but from this I have learnt so much so very quickly. I've become quite a bit quicker on entry, mid and exit speed and overall more confident with my line choice and how hard I bury the bike into corners. When I ride my acoustic bike I am noticeably quicker on the downs (and still hurting just as much as ever going up).


Yeah that has certainly occured in my group rides. This slower guys are slowly ebiking up and can keep up with the fast guys on mtbs and also blow us away on the ups if they want. The problem i have is that im one of the faster guys in our group. So if i ebike up for the group ride im waiting, waiting, waiting for the slow non E guys. Its the opposite to your experience. I get almost no workout at all.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

plummet said:


> Yeah that has certainly occured in my group rides. This slower guys are slowly ebiking up and can keep up with the fast guys on mtbs and also blow us away on the ups if they want. The problem i have is that im one of the faster guys in our group. So if i ebike up for the group ride im waiting, waiting, waiting for the slow non E guys. Its the opposite to your experience. I get almost no workout at all.


That ultimately split one of my groups up. Slow riders got e-bikes, became quicker, could do more, so no point doing the group ride of 15-20km when they could do double.

I guess where it ends is interesting, if the fast riders get e-bikes too is the group back to square one?


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

BEE_MTB_PNW said:


> I've been contemplating ebike for a while but the weight aspect has concerned me. Adding 15 lbs.... 50% heavier is substantial. How does the extra weight affect HOW you ride going down? How does it affect lines you take? How does it affect handling, taking corners and whatnot? Obv it's going to be super planted, so I'm sure that inspires a lot of confidence and maybe you even attack more confidently, if not even aggressively...? Obv it's awesome going up and that's the reason to make the switch - but how do you compare the handling, lines, etc with Amish bike when you don't have to pedal?


In my case, I have the Spesh Turbo Levo Comp alloy, I don't notice the weight on the downhill at all. It feels very natural to me. In fact, I like how it handles downhills more than my Ripmo. Where my confidence has gone up is jumping. I'm still strictly baby jumps, but something about the extra weight makes going off a jump much more confidence inspiring. That said, two of buddies demoed YT Decoys. They enjoyed it, but did comment they felt the weight when leaning the bike over on a turn. Nothing major as they are still getting Decoys.

Where you will feel the weight, besides your wallet, is lifting the bike onto the car rack! It's no longer a mindless endeavor. Use your legs. Also if I suddenly stop on a steep section of climb, despite all the power, I have to readjust to get going again. Usually due to being in wrong gear. Being in wrong gear happens more now too, but im getting better at this.

If you want an ebike that feels closer to a regular bike, check out the lighter ebikes, Orbea Rise, Pivot Shuttle SL, Spesh Levo SL, etc. Less power, but less weight.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Not even one 'powered my blender and made trailside margaritas'? These answers suck.

I can ride everything locally and do climb quite well (not mountains, just lots of rolling chunk) and just want to wrap up the longer climbs, majority of which are rough and technical, in like half the time for the sole reason to enjoy more technical gnar and descents.

The social aspect is a concern as e-bikes are not really a thing here, but since I ride by myself 80% of the time and on those rides aim for the most technical and abandoned trails, it doesn't seem to matter. The other 20% are family rides or group trail rides and I'll just take the pedal bike to keep those interesting.

Most likely picking up the Transition Relay mid-power bike in the Spring.

I will tell you that I joined the local e-bike FB group and some guy arranged a group e-bike ride, on literally the flattest easiest trails for 50 miles but these trails have very limited site distance (like 10' in many many places, SATN for those that know it), that are covered in children on striders, hikers and dog walkers, for last Saturday which was a beautiful Holiday weekend. He also stated the ride would be very fast.

^^^^ THIS is the problem with e-bikes. They allow idiots to do stupid things easier.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Mudguard said:


> I guess where it ends is interesting, if the fast riders get e-bikes too is the group back to square one?


This is interesting. So far on group ebike rides I've gone on, the division wasn't really between skills/fitness, but between the bikes themselves. The full power bikes were consistently ahead of the light ebikes. But they was a mix of beginners and intermediates. With motor speed limits though, everyone on max power and hammering, will a group still get split up? For the downs, we know ebikes dont make a difference. It's all skills for downhill speed. I'm joining a shop ebike ride later in the month. Will be interesting to see the dynamics for different skills and fitness.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

plummet said:


> Yeah that has certainly occured in my group rides. This slower guys are slowly ebiking up and can keep up with the fast guys on mtbs and also blow us away on the ups if they want. The problem i have is that im one of the faster guys in our group. So if i ebike up for the group ride im waiting, waiting, waiting for the slow non E guys. Its the opposite to your experience. I get almost no workout at all.


I didn't buy an ebike for fitness lol. Workouts and fitness come from everything else I do (which the ebike has also enabled as I'm not flogged from riding).

My rides with the real fast guys with me on the ebike are just fun and focus on the descents and having a laugh. My turbo everywhere rides are either alone or with other ebikers so whatever group I'm in we stick together.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

BEE_MTB_PNW said:


> I've been contemplating ebike for a while but the weight aspect has concerned me. Adding 15 lbs.... 50% heavier is substantial. How does the extra weight affect HOW you ride going down? How does it affect lines you take? How does it affect handling, taking corners and whatnot? Obv it's going to be super planted, so I'm sure that inspires a lot of confidence and maybe you even attack more confidently, if not even aggressively...? Obv it's awesome going up and that's the reason to make the switch - but how do you compare the handling, lines, etc with Amish bike when you don't have to pedal?


Weight is no issue for me. Though it did take me 3 months to get used to and enjoy descending my e-bikes. I ride it exactly the same as my normal bikes, just takes a bit more effort to hop and be playful on the trails. 

And I would say going up is the only reason to make the switch. My previous ebike was a KSL and I believe it descended better than my enduro, which I also think is still one of the best long travel bikes available.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

I’m gonna have to start a thread on what ebikes to buy. There’s been mention of bigger heavier more powerful ebikes. Then there are lighter less powered ebikes. I’ve only briefly started looking at what brands make ebikes but have yet to really dig into the power for them.


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## BEE_MTB_PNW (Dec 12, 2019)

All valuable input. Thanks guys


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Tallboy723 said:


> I’ve only briefly started looking at what brands make ebikes but have yet to really dig into the power for them.


All of them. 
The mountain bike brands that do not make an ebike is getting smaller and smaller every year. Only a few reputable mtb brands I can think of. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## scottie mac (Nov 3, 2011)

Emtbs have open up a new world for my group. 15 years ago when I was in my mid 30s, I was one of the faster riders in my group and could easily bang out 30 milers and still smile. Problem was, my group has a couple of guys in my demographic and a coupe of guys who only biked once in a while and weren't at the same fitness level. We are all buds and we leave no rider behind, but it does kind of suck, not just for the faster guys, but also for the slower guys because no one wants to hold up the group. My little riding circle consists of ages ranging from really early 30s to 60 plus. What eMTBs have done is nearly equal the fitness aspect. Yes, my one buddy who is in his early 30s who is fast as ^%&$# still rocks, but with our trail systems in my area, we don't turbo around, the trails are just too tight for the most part. Having eMTBs allow us to set up the assist in a way that we are all fairly even in terms of 'speed' and ability. Another interesting fact about our group is how we have evolved over the years. When the older buddy got the first Levo in 2016, a couple of us just didn't understand the need or want. But after a couple of group rides where he was now pushing us to go farther with a huge smile on his face, we quickly realized eMTBs had their place. Fast forward 7 years and we all are riding eMTBs and as mentioned before, it's no longer planning to see where we were going to ride and taking into account if rider A or rider B was going to be able to finish the ride. It's, what time are we meeting and what time do we need to be back to keep the better halves happy. 

SM


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## 2wls4ever (May 11, 2006)

Technical climbs and exploring for sure. I never use to go downhill to explore a new trail or a historical sight. Now I wander and explore way more.


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## letusride (Mar 25, 2007)

Started MTB in '92 and racing in '95. For the past 22 years a lot of my racing has been on a singlespeed. I got my first ebike in 2006, it was a mongoose kids bike (converted to a 26"/20" mullet). Fun but still a kid's bike with max speed of 12mph and 6 mile range.

Bought a modern ebike in 2019. In 2021 I logged over 3k miles and had a full time job.

Modern ebikes are like finding a new religion. I can bang out a couple hours on the road bike and then hit the trail for an hour to recover. Finish a race on the SS and then a recovery lap on the ebike. Moto trails, snowmobile trails, any trail is fun to ride. Steep technical trail climbs that were once hike-a-bike are now a blast. Every little trail feature is a jump, even going uphill. My wife can ride the ebike and I ride bio and we stay together, or she can drop me on a climb. My handling skills have improved, and I already had more than I needed.

Edit: I can carry a 30lb backpack with a chainsaw and cover a lot of trail after a windstorm removing downed trees. I would say it triples my productivity compared to carrying a chainsaw on a bio bike.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

There isn't anything the motor on my ebike allows me to do that I couldn't do on an analog, it's just more fun. It does have it's downsides with increased complexity and maintenance, and limited range, so I still spend the majority of my time on an analog bike.

.


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## Flat Pedals (Apr 22, 2011)

I have a 160/140mm travel EMTB that uses a 85nm motor and a 720wh battery. It weighs a little bit less than 50lbs. I use it to ride up hike a bike tech that I couldn't ride on the pedal bike. Definitely some jeep/moto like moments crawling up certain chunk and or steep pitches. Though, it's not as capable as you might think and if you get yourself too high/steep and can't stick it then you might be worried about dismounting and getting away from the bike. Also, where are your feet gonna land? Is there a place to put a foot down? Will it roll your ankle?

EMTB is great for doing post trail work rides, after tired from hours of digging and trimming or hauling in tools for trail work. For sure find myself lapping some stuff that I normally wouldn't get more than one circuit on. It's fun to blast flat and uphill sections too. For the most part though I ride it on more remote or lesser used trails. Use it as a self shuttle which could be with road up/trail down and for out and back on trails that are point to point shuttles but frankly not that fun. E bike makes it fun pedaling out and back.

I look forward to when the bikes that are now 50lbs with 38 forks and longer travel are in the lower 40 lb range. It will make descending more fun and pushing/portaging the bike far easier. I ride EMTB 25% and pedal bike 75%. I find more than that ratio impacts my ability to climb and put explosive power into the pedal bike. I lose the muscle memory. I'm mid 40s and a fairly fit/avid biker. Always been a strong climber.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Very good info. Many that have an ebike still seem to pedal more on the analog. I see the benefits to the ebike for the uphill stuff. But still see so many like the real thing of the analog. I’m just happy to be back in the game but still thinking of the longevity of biking and what it could lead to for me. Part of me is mad I took such a long break from it. But happy to get back into it where the geo of the 29 is on par and enjoyable to ride. I moved into other hobbies that kept my attention, when I wasn’t riding. Plus, I didn’t really want to ride my 26r anymore, but kept hold of it. I knew I wanted something new. Finally did it.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

I can ride OK is 90 and higher temps. Got overheated on my Trek Fuel EX pedal bike. Too old, 77.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Been doing a LOT of trail building lately. It's so much easier to lug the chainsaw and tools in on the ebike. Piles and piles easier. We were carving a big tree out at the top of a big route and we managed to get the tree extracted, but it was a lot more work than we planned but were still able to drop the saw at the truck and get 20 miles of riding in.

Technical climbing is just so much more fun. I love technical climbing anyhow, but on the ebike it's just a blast. There is a chunky section of 4" minus which I never bother with on my push bike but I'll hit it 2-3 times on the ebike just for giggles.

As many mentioned, exploring is super easy and fun. Exploring is in my nature anyhow so anything that makes it easier is a win in my book.

Riding with my wife. It's just easier when we are both on ebikes. If we're both on push bikes she gets frustrated and slows me down. If she's on the ebike and I'm pedaling, it's the reverse. If we're both on the ebike, I can just put my bike in eco and she puts hers in trail and we keep up with each other.

Hit downhill speeds on flat-ish sections or gradual climbs. Very much like adding extra miles of downhill to the trail. I know that's not really something I "Can't do" on my regular bike, but damn it turns some sections of trail which are a slog into a bucket of fun.

There are also some big climbs my buddies and I usually shuttle which I'm jonsing to pedal instead.

Pedal to the trailhead. It's about 4 miles away and you have to go along a 2 lane highway to get there. On the ebike I pop up onto the adjacent RR track and just pedal the ties and the gravel adjacent to it. Because I hate that road.


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## AZarmyguy (May 31, 2013)

my friends with e-bikes find trailheads more peaceful because no girls talk to them.


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## Al Fong (Oct 20, 2021)

plummet said:


> Yeah that has certainly occured in my group rides. This slower guys are slowly ebiking up and can keep up with the fast guys on mtbs and also blow us away on the ups if they want. The problem i have is that im one of the faster guys in our group. So if i ebike up for the group ride im waiting, waiting, waiting for the slow non E guys. Its the opposite to your experience. I get almost no workout at all.


Nothing you can do about the slow non E riders but on your ebike you can still get a workout and slow yourself down in ECO mode or lower the power a bit of your Trail mode?


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## BEE_MTB_PNW (Dec 12, 2019)

Prob need a thread about which eBikes everyone is riding. What are the real-life experiences on the diff configs.... Brand, model, year, battery size, range/hours.... Comparative detail would be valuable. How long have you had yours? Any battery degredation or issues? Seems there are a lot of Levos and Kenevos on trail - but what about others?


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Al Fong said:


> Nothing you can do about the slow non E riders but on your ebike you can still get a workout and slow yourself down in ECO mode or lower the power a bit of your Trail mode?


My conclusion was that there would be little point taking an ebike on a ride with guys on mtb"s that would be slower than me when I'm on my mtb. I might as well use the mtb and get the workout.

For the record I dont yet have my own e bike. 
My daughter has a orbea rise which I steal from time to time. It's too small and not enough travel to really use in anger. But I can see the new trail possibilities with it.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

One thing I hadn't considered is that an ebike is opening back up easy boring af tracks to me. Tracks I cannot be farked riding on a standard bike because they bore me to tears. Hit that same track at ebike speed and suddenly there's some entertainment again.


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## Flat Pedals (Apr 22, 2011)

plummet said:


> One thing I hadn't considered is that an ebike is opening back up easy boring af tracks to me. Tracks I cannot be farked riding on a standard bike because they bore me to tears. Hit that same track at ebike speed and suddenly there's some entertainment again.


Completely agree. That was one of my main drivers in buying an EMTB was to extract more value from my regional riding opportunities. There's a lot of stuff I don't ride because it's not that interesting on a pedal bike or the logistics suck. Now I'm riding some huge out and backs with sections that used to be hike a bike and pedaling through it all and roosting the mellower sections. That said there's very little traffic on these trails and by roosting i mean like 10-14mph.


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