# Please advise; I am ready to buy another full suspension e-mtb, whats up for 2018?



## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I currently ride a 2017 Haibike Xduro Almtn 7.0 which is Bosch CX assisted. Suspension and assist levels are great, range with 500 battery is poor and i feel it could climb steep technical climbs better.
I thought I wanted another Bosch assisted bike so I could have a spare battery for longer rides.
Who wants to carry a spare battery?!
I do not care for the limited granny gear options for the Bosch CX small front chain ring design and apparently Bosch is only going back to normal sized chain rings on their non mtb motors.
So for now, Bosch is out for me.
Should it be?

Bulls has the Brose motor with a 650 battery and apparently for 2018 Bulls now has a 750 dual battery set up with the Shimano motor.
I must not be the only one concerned with battery range with Bulls offering more battery.


Levos are getting more suspension travel on the higher end models.
The ability to set the assist level where you want it (say between Eco and Tour modes) may be a feature that is more valuable than I envisioned before owning an e-mtb.

Where do Yamaha motors fit in.

Some company in Canada is making their own motor that has idler sprockets everywhere.
i am not an engineer but that looks like a maintenance and extra drag issue.

Unfortunately it is difficult to find out how a bike performs until you own it and compare it on the trails you normally ride.

i wish when they do the comparisons they would include the mileage at similar performance levels and riding conditions.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

First, you should wait for the end of the announcements of the new models, at least until Eurobike (August 30).

I think the efficiency of the motors is similar from one brand to another. So, roughly, if you want to go further or be more assisted you need a larger battery.

That said, the way the power is delivered certainly impacts the consumption. And, for you, I'm pretty sure that the new eMTB mode for the CX motor would be beneficial.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

highroad 2 said:


> i wish when they do the comparisons they would include the mileage at similar performance levels and riding conditions.


www.emtb-news.de includes in their reviews a test route. They ride it with the assistance at the maximum until the battery is empty.

But they started this recently so there is only a few bikes tested in the same conditions.

To give an idea:

Cannondale Moterra LT1, Bosch 500 Wh, 32.2 km, 1h28
Lapierre Overvolt AM 900+ Carbon, Bosch 500Wh, 38 km, 1h36
Ghost Kato FS 8 custom, Shimano 500Wh, 35.6 km, 1h23
Haibike Sduro Nduro 8.0, Yamaha 500 Wh, 36 km, 1h32
The results are really similar.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

efat
I agree it is too early too make a decision on the 2018 models.
I find the results of the the 4 bikes you listed interesting.

In turbo mode they all toasted the batteries in about 90 minutes with a range of 32-38 kilometers.
When you are shopping for these bikes the dealers would have you believe the batteries will last all day and 90k.
I am sure they would if you toggle between off and Eco.

I get 25k in 80 minutes.
I wish I knew why I seem to get 30 % less distance .
Do those reviews come in English?


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## Bizman (Oct 11, 2010)

highroad 2 said:


> I get 25k in 80 minutes.
> I wish I knew why I seem to get 30 % less distance .


highroad 2, what kind of terrain to you ride, is it allot of hills? Do you use a throttle of is it all pedal assisted (both)? Do you always use the motor on your rides or do you pedal "some" with the motor off? These will all have some effect on how your mileage may vary. I am the believer that for range you need to have a BIG Ah battery, the bigger the more range but then it will be more weight. You may want to consider building your own ebike then you would be able to have more control over the size of battery you would install rather than have what a said manufacture provides.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

highroad 2 said:


> I get 25k in 80 minutes.
> I wish I knew why I seem to get 30 % less distance .
> Do those reviews come in English?


These are only in german...

The elevation gain here is about 800 meters, maybe you are doing more?

Be it in Eco or Turbo mode the only way to go further without changing other things is to go slower (that's not the case in these tests, they ride as fast as possible).


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Bizman
My Haibike bike is Bosch assisted only and I do not want a throttle.
I would considered building a bike if I can noticeably improve what I have in range vs Ah vs weight.
Carrying an extra battery is the simplest solution for now since the bike has been very reliable and I enjoy riding it.
I prefer the challenge of riding technical hilly terrain. 

Does the Bosch CX motor care what battery is powering it?
I would consider using an after market battery with more Ma but it would have to be carried in a backpack which has its issues

efat
Going slower is not an option for me.
I try to get as many miles in as fast as I can.
My typical ride only has 400 meters elevation to get 25 k over 80 minutes before depleting the battery.
It appears my system is not very efficient when it gets half the elevation gain, 30% less mileage in about the same time.
It has been 48 years since a took German in high school and I hate to admit that both my parents immigrated from Germany.
I should have better skills in reading German

Thanks for the replies.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Bosch uses CAN bus so I'm almost certain that there is some kind of dialog with the battery.

You have this solution but not sure if you need more than the Y cable to upgrade:



> DualBattery is the perfect solution for tour riders, long distance commuters and cabby bikers: two PowerPacks connected to one another - in a combination of either two frame batteries or one frame and one rack battery. Bosch DualBattery support up to a range of 180 km under favorable conditions.
> 
> Available for the Performance Line CX, Performance Line and Active Line - either in a combination of two frame batteries or of frame and rack batteries.


https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/Bosch-eBike-Dual-Battery-Cable-Kit


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I figured the battery and motor are married.
I am shopping for another Bosch 500Wh battery.


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## A.P. (Jan 12, 2004)

Disclaimer: I am not an eBike expert by any means. I only tried a single eBike in my life, so please take the following for what it's worth. 

I tried a Giant Full-E (rental eBike) with a Yamaha motor and I'd advise forgetting about it if you are a high cadence-type rider. I typically pedal in 90 rpm range and that is too fast for the Yamaha motor. It seems it only performs well below 75 rpm. That was a big turnoff for me. It may have been better with an 11 speed drivetrain, but the bike was fitted with the 7 (or 8?) speed EX-1 and the large gear spread meant that I was often in between gears: either it was difficult for me to pedal at a low cadence in a particular gear, or the motor couldn't follow-up if I downshifted 1 gear.

Based on this experience, there is no way I would cough 8000$ or so on an eBike with this electric system. I guess I could adapt to it if it was mine, but it certainly didn't feel natural for me.

That being said, I should add that my friend, who apparently can pedal at a lower cadence than me, enjoyed the bike a lot...so I guess YMMV.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

A.P. said:


> I tried a Giant Full-E (rental eBike) with a Yamaha motor and I'd advise forgetting about it if you are a high cadence-type rider. I typically pedal in 90 rpm range and that is too fast for the Yamaha motor.


That's something they have corrected with the new PW-X motor.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

highroad 2 said:


> I currently ride a 2017 Haibike Xduro Almtn 7.0 which is Bosch CX assisted. Suspension and assist levels are great, range with 500 battery is poor and i feel it could climb steep technical climbs better.
> ...
> I do not care for the limited granny gear options for the Bosch CX small front chain ring design and apparently Bosch is only going back to normal sized chain rings on their non mtb motors.
> So for now, Bosch is out for me.
> Should it be?


I'm afraid you are blaming Bosch CX for Haibikes' poor eMTB design. My buddy is dealing with the same problems with a 2016 Bulls (Brose) & a 2017 Haibike (Bosch CX).

Bulls & Haibike appear to have taken higher-speed (road) PAS and stuffed 'em in Mtbs without gearing 'em down.

For Example:

Trek Powerfly (bosch cx) 15t chain ring (cr). (x 2.5 Bosch gearing) = 37.5t cr equivalent, 11-42t cassette, 
Real gearing is 37.5/11-42.

Haibike (bosch cx) 18t cr x 2.5 Bosch = 45t cr equivalent, 11-46t cassette
Real gearing is 45/11-46.

Dealer told friend a 16t cr is available from Haibike, but would void warranty if installed. Requires special cr with huge offset to clear frame, & not made by Bosch.

Powerfly can use 14-18t Bosch cr directly. I have installed 11-46t Sunring on mine to get the granny gear I want to climb with. (37.5/11-46) My buddy can't get anywhere near that gearing with Haibike version of Bosch CX.

Here is my take on the Brose vs Bosch CX PAS;

If you prefer low-cadence climbing, go Brose. Minimal effort above torque-sense threshold gets max torque of selected setting at low cadence. Easiest low-cadence climber.

If you prefer high-cadence climbing, the Bosch. The Bosch starts with less assist at minimal cadence & torque, but as you pedal faster and/or harder, you are rewarded with MORE assist. I bought the Powerfly because it feels like its got a personal trainer in there trying to get me to to work harder. Exactly what I was looking for.

Not demoed a Shimano PAS yet, so I can't comment.

Most emtb reviews I've seen do not talk about these differences. You must demo them to experience the real differences that matter to you.

Here is the best test I've seen about the difference of climbing abilities of the tested ebikes & vs mtb. Look at those numbers very closely.

Good luck,

Catfish ...


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Hi Moto
The American way is to blame somebody besides yourself.
You understand gearing as most seem to be clueless about it.
I just wish the engineers that designed the Bosch CX would have put less internal gear reduction like 2 to 1 versus the current 2.5 to 1.
As you pointed out the 18t front chainring (CR) times 2.5 = 45.
Most decent climbing mountain bikes with 1 X drives have between 28 and 36t on the front CR.
What was the Bosch engineering team thinking?
I converted to the Sram EX 1 drive with 14t front and 11/48 cluster and I often wished it was lower geared.
The 14t is the equivalent of a 35t CR and I am sure a 14t would work on your Powerfly if you want a little more lower gearing.

It was interesting to read in the link that you posted that a properly low geared bike will climb faster and probably be more efficient with low enough gearing.
I complained to Bosch and Haibike about the gearing and was told no one else has complained and was told to put it in Turbo mode and it should climb trees.
As if Turbo mode will solve gearing issues.
One guy posted that I should spend more time in the gym which is very possible.
What happens when you take a 800 HP super-car and and start out in 4th gear?
Blame the poor performance to not enough time in the gym.

I wish Bosch would man up to the issue and provide 2 to 1 internal gearing for us current users that want it.
I rode a $4500 Turbo levo and the stock gearing with a 32t CR and a 10/42 cluster has decent climbing ratios out of the box.
My Haibike came with 45t CR equivalent and 11/46 which was not even close to being geared low enough.
$650 later for the EX 1, my Haibike is on the verge of being a good bike.
Thanks
Highroad


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

If you want to get into the nuts and bolts of electric motors and how it applies to ebikes, this is interesting reading. The condensed version is that motors perform best within a narrow window, and the designers try to tailor it to the appropriate riding style with voltage, software, electronics and mechanical gearing.

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/motor-torque-specs-minefield.3353/

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/torque-rating-on-e-bikes-marketing-gimmick.2467/

This review of the available motors sort of gets into it as well.

What's the best E-MTB motor? Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose, Panasonic | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


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## Phil413 (Aug 9, 2016)

Owner of 2016 Bulls ebike. Brose motor is a gem. No range anxiety with the big battery of the 650 wh. Ive climbed a lengthy severe pitched track and the motor carried me like a sure footed burro. I typically ride between lvl 2-3 and when the track goes steep, punch to lvl 4. 30 mile rides are no problemo. When you're tired and pooped out with the blazing sun still scorching you, its refreshing to cruise back to your car on lvl 4 and still have 2 bars left.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Harryman said:


> ...
> This review of the available motors sort of gets into it as well.
> 
> What's the best E-MTB motor? Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose, Panasonic | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


Very-good review! Thanks for sharing.

Catfish ...


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

More great 2018 eMTB reviews ...






Catfish ...


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Moto
Thanks for posting the review.
It appears that all 5 of the bikes reviewed were assisted with Shimano Steps, no small Bosch front chain rings in sight, Brose or Yamaha.
And that the Scotts switched from the Bosch to the Steps.
Maybe everyone is enamored with the electric shift that Shimano offers or Shimano has risen to the current top.
I have not ridden electric shift but it would be appealing.
Now the question is if the newer motors can get more miles per pound of battery?
One of the bikes had 160 mm suspension travel which appeals to me.
Are any of these bikes readily available in the states?

Highroad 2


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I think you're really only going to see options for more batteries, range gains via motors is going to be minimal.

First Look: Haibike E-MTB lineup for 2018 | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

All the new cool e bikes coming out my bike is a 5 yr old converted Intense tracer it rocks with fox 36s BUT the new e bikes are so cool . I have started saving for a new bike for my return trip to Moab and back to CO springs next year, I have plenty of time to decide and so many cool bikes ! these are exciting times to be a e biker!.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

highroad 2 said:


> Now the question is if the newer motors can get more miles per pound of battery?


No.

The Bosch tends to deliver its power more abruptly compared, for example, to a Brose which is more "softer". This difference certainly leads to difference in consumption.

For you that don't use the Eco mode, I'm almost sure that the new Emtb mode would be beneficial.


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## apuking (Mar 3, 2015)

Shimano STEPS had the E-MTB mode a long time before Bosch, with Shimano it is simply called Trail Mode.

The bikes with E-8000 motor should be considered, they seem to win every magazine review recently.

One big advantage I see with Brose, Shimano and Yamaha over Bosch is that with the motor switched off the Brose/Shimano/Yamaha bikes pedal completely effortless, basically just like a regular bike. With Bosch however that is not the case.

Reliability-wise I think all the 4 big-brands mentioned above should be top-notch.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

It appears that Haibike is still married to Bosch and I am sure as big as they seem to be, they have good reasons.
As I have stated before, I do not care for the bosch CX internal gearing that requires such a small chain ring.
The bikes sure look better with the battery tube and make my 2017 haibike look antiquated.

I was intrigued by apuking's statement that except for Bosch the other motors pedal effortlessly when turned off.
I own the Bosch and the Brose is the only other motor I have limited time on and it felt very similar to my Bosch when switched off.
Which surprised me since I expected the Brose to be significantly less effort due to the internal gearing differences.
When off, they both seem to pedal fine on the level or downhill.
Come to a mild climb, and I wished for a non assisted bike.
Come to a moderate climb and its easier to walk than ride either one was my experience.

Keep posting any new information to help inform potential buyers.

In the 6 mouths since I started riding my first mountain bike, the Haibike, I have found that I am able to turn down the assist more and more to keep up with the non assisted riders including using Eco at times.
So I just ordered a Santa Cruise Hightower long travel and will give non assisted riding a try.
I will confess that when riding alone I enjoy turning up the assist, climbing faster and getting more miles in.
Its addicting

Highroad


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## Dontom (Jul 4, 2004)

@eFat @highroad


> Do those reviews come in English?


The latest ones have been translated to english, upcoming will be in english, too:
https://www.emtb-news.de/news/en/


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

highroad 2 said:


> ...
> Keep posting any new information to help inform potential buyers.
> ...
> So I just ordered a Santa Cruise Hightower long travel and will give non assisted riding a try.
> ...


Best eMTB News & reviews out there (E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine - The leading E-Mountainbike Magazine)
& 2018 article (The most important E-MTB innovations for 2018 | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine)

You should love that SC HT LT! 

I got the 2016 HT first to help rehab a knee after 'scope.

View attachment 1154998


Could NOT climb more than 400-500 ft before knee ached & swelled for the rest of day. But it is absolutely incredible when I'm not climbing.

Friends had Sondors, Bulls, & La Pierre ebikes. I really liked the eMTBs and started demoing everything available. Liked the Powerfly best & bought it.

View attachment 1154993


If my @#$%&! broken arm will ever heal, I'll get back to riding again to get the knee better. Then I can start riding my Beta again too! 

View attachment 1155003


Good luck with your HT & eMTB adventures,

Catfish ...


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Moto
I hope you heal soon and can get back in the saddle.
I also ride a Beta trials bike and Ktm for trail.
Due to fire danger the woods have been closed to motos for 6 weeks, so the mountain bike is getting more use.
I am looking forward to the SC HT LT when they became available due to popular demand.

I started this thread due to my dislike of small front chain rings that the Bosch motor requires.
Otherwise the Haibike is serving me well once I got it geared low enough.
The new ebike from Pivot makes my 6 month old Haibike look antiquated.
I am looking forward to seeing the advances in E-Mtb technology.
I should probably wait and see what 2019 brings 
High road


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