# 29plus wheelset: 197mm + 36 hole + double wall + hopefully tubeless



## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

I'm trying to build a 29plus rear wheel that can take a nearly 400lb loaded (210 me, 60lb bike, trail-building gear, normal camping kit) bike down singletrack, slightly rough terrain (loaded surly big fat dummy).

My first criteria is absolutely bomber.
Second criteria is not insanely expensive (more than average is fine)

My hopes are:
- works great with tubeless, hopefully with just rim strip
- double wall
- 36 spokes

The SunRingle duroc looks great, and comes in 36hole, but it has no ridge at the bead seat and thus isn't as easy or reliable with tubeless. The origin8 / Weinmann rims, i think, come in 50mm width, but i their website wont load, and their rims seem targeted simply at 'budget' (and 50% heavier doesn't necessarily mean bombproof)

Any recommendations?

(edit: Duroc's do have the bead seat. I got mixed up with Velocity Dually's)


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

I edited the title to include my dropout spacing ... 197 ... are there really no 36 hole options for current fatbikes?

I've been looking for bomber wheelsets, thought i was on to something after seeing the duroc did come in 36hole. 

Looks like not, but worth asking the geniuses on mtbr


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## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

high_desert_mud said:


> nearly 400lb loaded
> 
> Any recommendations?


they make 48 spoke rims


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

I'd do it  are there any 197mm hubs, or ~50mm rims, for 48 hole?


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## christian69 (Mar 8, 2014)

Perhaps this:
Rims | Kris Holm Unicycles

Set it up ghetto tubeless. Never tried it, but looks bomber. Some folks are using them for off-road touring bikes.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Thought about 27.5 ? Most everything in fat hubs and rims are 32?


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

I can't really answer your question, but will comment that the Duroc rims do indeed have a bump to lock the bead and work great tubeless. This is the best picture I could find, I know it shows the narrower rims, but the bead lock is the same on the Duroc 50:








Whether that rim is strong enough, I have no idea. Maybe consider the Rabbit Hole, or as somebody else mentioned, a Kris Holm rim?


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

What about hubs for 197 dropouts in anything above 32 hole?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I think everything is 32 hole. 29er plus a must? 32 hole could work. Beefy spokes plus a beefy rim. Check out lacemine29.com. Not an Ad. He posts here a lot, and builds wheels for a living. He could certainly give you some good direction.


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

leeboh said:


> 29er plus a must?


I think so. The insanely heavy load is not typical (but obviously the wheelset must support the worst case load). Typically it'll be ~300lb loaded (210 me, 60lb bike, 30ish pounds of kid OR gear)



leeboh said:


> Check out lacemine29.com.


emailed him, thanks!


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

bikeny said:


> Duroc rims do indeed have a bump to lock the bead and work great tubeless


Thanks for the note. I had emailed SunRingle last week for more details on the Duroc, they just got back to me:

- eyelets: duroc's have been sold with and without eyelets
- profile: here's the full pic sunringle sent


http://imgur.com/5udHR


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

These are only 32h but Jeff Jones posted a cool video of him trying to flex it.

Jones C-Rim - Jones Bikes

EDIT-

Just saw it was for a BFD. Keep in mind, the lower the center of gravity the better. This is why Xtracycle is moving to smaller rear wheels. Don't forget 27.5 or even just plain ol 26. They'll be stronger anyway. I have 26" trials rims on my regular dummy.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Just read something that SunRingle is releasing beefed up SD versions of the Duroc rims. Thicker material throughout and about 50g heavier per rim compared to the original.


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

bikeny said:


> Just read something that SunRingle is releasing beefed up SD versions of the Duroc rims. Thicker material throughout and about 50g heavier per rim compared to the original.


that would be awesome. The duroc's already are about the best i've found; this would probably be enough to make a decision 

Right now, the best I can find for my wheelset is:
hope pro 4 fatsno, dt 350's, etc
duroc 50mm's or scraper i45's

and am still concerned about strength and long-term durability.


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## alias (May 9, 2005)

Not sure if you have considered that rims also have max. recomended weights and that the new DT Swiss Hybrid rims are specifically designed for high weight loads, and are advertised as rated for 150kg. on an all mountian bike / tough terrain / jumping.
The Duroc rims, while wide have been designed as a standard but wide rim, and NOT for high loads / high system weights.

You seem like the ideal candidate for the Hybrid rims, Check 'em out...


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

alias said:


> DT Swiss Hybrid rims are specifically designed for high weight loads


These looks great, thanks, except they are only in standard widths. The website shows 30mm available, with 25 and 35 coming in the future?

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/rims/hybrid-e-bike/


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Ruled out say 27.5 x 80 mm rims and 4" tires? just a thought. I run 29x3 tires on my karate monkey, lots of options in the say 35/40/45 mm width. Just some thoughts.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Curious OP, what bike are these to go on and what width rims/tyres do you currently run? I might tend to agree with the above poster that maybe take a look at some 650B offerings, might help build you an overall stronger wheel with the smaller diameter and if you're not running anything over 4" wide tyres on your current Fatbike, then some 3" B+ tyres should come back up to roughly the same OD - avg B+ tyre is about 28.25-28.5" for 2.8-3".


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Ruled out say 27.5 x 80 mm rims and 4" tires?


I run 26x5" on 80mm rim when needed  Or when i'm just riding for fun with the kid on back. The conditions that benefit from the big tires aren't compatible with having a really heavy load, so the strength need for that wheelset isn't quite as unique.



leeboh said:


> I run 29x3 tires on my karate monkey, lots of options in the say 35/40/45 mm width


From the research i've done, 35 _can_ certainly run 3" tires, but it seems better with something internal width around 40-ish. I'm shooting for ~50mm outside diam tires; but would be totally happy with 45mm outside. I'm sure I could do with 40mm fine, as well - and will do so if that's the right strong rim and it only comes in 40mm outside 

Maybe i didn't understand your post though; is there something implied between the 27.5/80mm and 29x3?


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

LyNx said:


> Curious OP, what bike are these to go on


surly big fat dummy: longtail / cargo bike designed for large tires. Got it expand what i can carry. It's been awesome; other than slow, sharp corners like switchbacks (longer tuning radius) it really handles well, and doesn't feel flexy with ~300lbs system weight.



LyNx said:


> width rims/tyres do you currently run?


currenty running 26x80mm with 4.8"s. Running Mulefut rims. They are 'semi-double-wall' and a little heavier than the other seemingly strongest options, MOBD. Separately i am researching (and, waiting hopefully for new rims to be released...) what i can do to increase my safety margin there. But, the really unusual loads (mainly trailbuilding where we can't use motors and an atv wouldn't fit anyway) can be limited to using the 29x3 wheelset.



LyNx said:


> take a look at some 650B offerings, might help build you an overall stronger wheel with the smaller diameter and if you're not running anything over 4" wide


I guess I'm not entirely opposed to 27.5x3 *IF* there happens to be a crazy-strong setup available. I'd prefer the 29x3 to 

keep my drive ratio/leverage the same (I'm geared really low; going smaller tire would take more from my top-end)
and extra rollover (I won't be doing much 'finessing' of the bike fully loaded. at all.  ) but it's only a 5% difference ...









so extra strength would trump that if it exists. (obviously the wheels are slightly stronger, all things equal due to spoke dish angles) ... I'm hoping that you mean there are stronger rims available. Maybe in 36 or 48 spoke? ... of course I'd need that mythical 36 spoke 197x12mm rear hub!

Do you have something specific in mind?


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## BrianCBRXX (Dec 21, 2016)

I just picked up a set of Duroc 50's to convert my RSD Mayor to a 29+, and I've been regretting it. I'm looking at switching the rim to something smaller ... maybe 35? Not sure yet. The problem? Rubber availability. There are just so few options for 29+ tires out there right now. The bike is a bit faster with the Nobby Nic's over the Jumbo Jim's (4.0) that I run on the Mulefut 80's, but I'd love to have a better selection of rubber, and as far as I can tell, the industry is abandoning 29+. Consider carefully before pulling the trigger on a 29+ wheelset.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

BrianCBRXX said:


> I just picked up a set of Duroc 50's to convert my RSD Mayor to a 29+, and I've been regretting it. I'm looking at switching the rim to something smaller ... maybe 35? Not sure yet. The problem? Rubber availability. There are just so few options for 29+ tires out there right now. The bike is a bit faster with the Nobby Nic's over the Jumbo Jim's (4.0) that I run on the Mulefut 80's, but I'd love to have a better selection of rubber, and as far as I can tell, the industry is abandoning 29+. Consider carefully before pulling the trigger on a 29+ wheelset.


 What? You mean at least like 10 or so that I can think of? Surly, Vittoria, Maxxis, Vee rubber etc. Add in some 2.8's as well. Add in Bontreager, Duro, CST, Innova and WTB. Ever hear of goggle? Couple of 3.25's too. Dude.


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

BrianCBRXX said:


> I'm looking at switching the rim to something smaller ... maybe 35? Not sure yet. The problem? Rubber availability


I assume you are staying 29er, but going slightly narrower? I sort of agree, for mainstream bikes, having spent some time on a beargrease 29x3. To me it didn't feel like a great compromise: has most the downsides (inertia) of a 26x5, without being as plush or insanely grippy. And I've noticed it doesn't seem to be catching on. But that's on a bike that is intended to be ultra nimble. For my application i DO want the qualities of 29x3; high-40's-inner-width is presumably too big for 2.5" tires; what is the largest width I can go while getting good sidewall support on 29x3 but also future proofing a bit for 2.5/2.6" ?

it DOES seem to me that 27.5plus/650bPlus and slightly-larger-than-normal 29er (true 2.5, 2.6" tires) are hear to stay. Do you agree?

Thanks for the note - I don't want to derail the main topic, but maybe there are more options for me in the 40mm range? I'm hoping not to go down to 3x inner width - but perhaps you guys will correct me that this is still OK for 3" tires?


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Little bit more of a chime in from my perspective on 29+....

An i40 rim will more than do for most 29x3.0" tyres out there, love how my i39 Dually45 works with my 3.0" DHF, pair that up with 2.8"xB+ Rekon on i35 outback and I have a fantastic setup that does really well on the most technical of stuff. As to 29+ going away? Highly, highly doubt that. Right now there is a very decent, if smaller selection of 29+ tyres and rims. Maybe consider going to 29x2.5" with a burlier casing to help with the load, something like the Double Down casing from Maxxis.

OP, just an FYI, to help my Dually45 rims be "better" with tubeless and give them a bead shelf to speak, I just taped first with a narrower tape that came up out of the channel, did 2 wraps, then wrapped with the widest tape and it did help create a bead shelf that works and helps.

On using B+ over 29+, was just thinking for the fact that no matter how you slice it, shorter spokes, less diameter and greater bracing angle will build a stronger wheel and if your BB isn't to low to do it, lots more selection of tyres available from 2.6-3.25".


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I did EXACTLY what Lynx did with a pair of Velocity Duallys. They worked fine with narrow tape over the spoke holes with Chupacabras and WTB Rangers. I wanted to try a Vittoria Bomboloni and it wouldn't stay seated without a ton of pressure. I taped them all the way across with one wrap of Gorilla tape and one wrap of 3M tape (exactly like Stan's but blue)
and while I gave up on the Bomboloni, the Vee Bulldozer I have on the front wheel and the Chupacabra on the rear can run single digit pressures and never burp or slip. 
I like these rims a lot. 
I have them laced to 197mm Hopes with 32 holes with DT Swiss Comps. 
I weigh 240 or so and I hammer the bike pretty good. I wouldn't hesitate to use Duallys with 32 spokes on a Big Fat Dummy. In fact, I probably will. It's the next bike on my list.


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## alias (May 9, 2005)

if 27.5 x 3 is also an option for you the DT Hybrid rims are available in 35mm internal in 27.5....as I said, crazy strong, seems right for your application.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

NYrr496 said:


> I did EXACTLY what Lynx did with a pair of Velocity Duallys. They worked fine with narrow tape over the spoke holes with Chupacabras and WTB Rangers. I wanted to try a Vittoria Bomboloni and it wouldn't stay seated without a ton of pressure. I taped them all the way across with one wrap of Gorilla tape and one wrap of 3M tape (exactly like Stan's but blue)
> and while I gave up on the Bomboloni, the Vee Bulldozer I have on the front wheel and the Chupacabra on the rear can run single digit pressures and never burp or slip.
> I like these rims a lot.
> I have them laced to 197mm Hopes with 32 holes with DT Swiss Comps.
> I weigh 240 or so and I hammer the bike pretty good. I wouldn't hesitate to use Duallys with 32 spokes on a Big Fat Dummy. In fact, I probably will. It's the next bike on my list.


Why go through all that trouble with the Velocity rims? There are so many newer tubeless ready Plus rims that are super easy to set up tubeless and have bead lock bumps to hold your tires at nice low pressures. Easton/Raceface Arc Plus, SunRingle Duroc, Halo Vapor 50, Kore Realm, Spank Oozy, WTB Scraper, etc...

Sorry, I just don't see the appeal of the Dually. They're not even cheap, or light...


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Back on topic. It seems like finding 36h hubs is going to be the biggest issue. Sounds like a couple of manufacturers can do it, but it won't be cheap. So you have to decide if it's worth it to spend big bucks for 36h hubs and then choose from the very limited number of 36h rims, or just go with the stoutest rims and hubs you can find in 32h and hope it's enough.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

If the wheel is built nice 32 will be enough.


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

bikeny said:


> Back on topic. It seems like finding 36h hubs is going to be the biggest issue.


Finally found a source (thanks above for the suggestion) - Onyx will sell me one. It's over $600, though.

SO. Some options are:

duroc rims, 36h, with Onyx 36h hubs (over $800/each built)
duroc or scraper rims, 32h, with hope pro 4 fatsno 32h hubs ($400/each built)
durocs are welded; new scrapers are not. Durocs apparently can also be found with eyelets; so i'm leaning durocs​
something else

is 36 hole adding that much more strength? If I were to spend 800/wheel (No tire), does that open up other options that would be better suited?

After reading more here and elsewhere, i do think I'm leaning towards 40mm rims (duroc or scrapers, so far). I care about safety, longevity, functionality, then cost (although cost is certainly _not_ an afterthought); does using 35mm internal width cause me any problems with 3" tires?


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## high_desert_mud (Jul 22, 2017)

bikeny said:


> Why go through all that trouble with the Velocity rims? There are so many newer tubeless ready Plus rims that are super easy to set up tubeless and have bead lock


I agree; thanks NYrr496 and Lynx; I think for my application the Dually's are out - the reason is without the bead lock the seat just isn't as secure as one with a locking ridge, and given the need for extra safety factor I'll take the lock. Not to say Duallys can't be made to work well, it just seems out of line with where I'm trying to go. Otherwise, they look like great rims, and Velocity certainly has a great touring/bikepacking reputation.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

You need to think a bit about hub strength as well. There have a number of reports of fat bike hub failures like axles breaking. Obviously, the cheap off brand hubs have issues, but some pricier name brand hubs have issues as well. Do your own research, but I think Hope and Industry 9 have been problematic. If it were my money, I'd go with DT Swiss Big Ride hubs. The Onyx hubs should be bombproof, but as you know, you pay for it.

And yeah, I think eyelets would be a good idea if you can find an appropriate rim that has them.

As for rim width, if you only plan to run big 2.8 and 3.0 tires, I think it makes sense to go with the widest rims, around 50mm outside & 45mm inside width. When the rim gets narrower you need to rim higher pressure. If you plan to try out narrower 2.5 or 2.6 tires, then a narrower rim might be better. I think the ideal inner width is 40mm.

Did you contact Lacemine29? Interested what he would recommend.

Edit: Forgot to add, Alex makes some plus rims as well, MD50 and MD40. They look pretty beefy and are not light, but are pinned, not welded.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

For me, definitely i40 for true 3.0" tyres, especially with a heavier load as the wider rim will give lots more sidewall support and help keep the tyre from rolling as easily.

As to the Dually45, "was just sayin" is all, that just because of the lack of the bead seat it isn't a horrible rim and before I did the taped seat, I never had any trouble with burping, so if someone had one or it was an only option as you were looking for 36 hole rims, then don't rule it out. Agree there are better rims out with beadlock and I myself now choose WTB Asyms for most any rim I need for the great tubeless system and offset drilling to build almost dishless wheels.



high_desert_mud said:


> .......After reading more here and elsewhere, i do think I'm leaning towards 40mm rims (duroc or scrapers, so far). I care about safety, longevity, functionality, then cost (although cost is certainly _not_ an afterthought); does using 35mm internal width cause me any problems with 3" tires?


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