# I got a hybrid!



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

I bought used Honda insight to replace my 20-25 mpg Miata. When I drove the car home I got 63 mpg.:thumbsup: The other good thing is that I can fit my bike in the hatch, where in my Miata I had to install the hitch rack and suffer mpg decreases.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Nice!*

Thinking of one of those myself for commuting. First, I need a family car to replace my GTi.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

*Hybrids suck...*

very little gas  Nice score!


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## rickyaustin (May 19, 2007)

For those looking into used Insights - research the battery replacement. The warranty is only up to 80,000 miles, and many batteries have kicked the bucket right on schedule. 

I was looking into buying one a year ago, and the battery replacement costs (heard anywhere from $3,000 to $6,000) scared me away. 

They look like awesome cars, just know the facts and what to expect. 

Congrats on the purchase!


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I wonder...*



rickyaustin said:


> For those looking into used Insights - research the battery replacement. The warranty is only up to 80,000 miles, and many batteries have kicked the bucket right on schedule.
> 
> I was looking into buying one a year ago, and the battery replacement costs (heard anywhere from $3,000 to $6,000) scared me away.
> 
> ...


... if there is an easy way to tell how good the battery is or isn't. I mean, prolly hit it hard and see how the battery drops, but how about in between good and bad.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

rickyaustin said:


> For those looking into used Insights - research the battery replacement. The warranty is only up to 80,000 miles, and many batteries have kicked the bucket right on schedule.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Dekes (Jan 3, 2007)

I dislike the look of it. I wouldnt get a hybrid myself unless they find a way to replace the battery with a capacitor.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Dekes said:


> I dislike the look of it. I wouldnt get a hybrid myself unless they find a way to replace the battery with a capacitor.


Why a capacitor? I have read about capacitors in hybrids here and there, but I have not seen any built that way.


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## Dekes (Jan 3, 2007)

Killroy said:


> Why a capacitor? I have read about capacitors in hybrids here and there, but I have not seen any built that way.


Well, first of all, hybrids are built as an environment-friendly car, but due to the huge battery, it defeats the purpose quite some. In fact, a hybrid is more harmful than a regular car with a small engine.
This could be solved with capacitors, however, getting a capacitor with the capacity to move a car in that same car is impossible, as those capacitors are too big. A capacitor also never ever wears out, as a battery does quite fast. So sustainable development wise, that would be a pretty good thing. The thing with hybrid cars today is that they polute less to the air while they are driven but they are a horrible nightmare to the environment production and recycling wise.


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## Mr.Bob (Jan 6, 2004)

Dekes said:


> ...This could be solved with capacitors, however, getting a capacitor with the capacity to move a car in that same car is impossible, as those capacitors are too big....


How could it be solved with something that is impossible?

Anyway, you should probably qualify that to say a capacitor that is reasonably sized, stores enough energy to be useful, is made out of environmentally friendly materials and doesn't wear out. Unfortunately such a thing doesn't yet exist. Of course any energy storage technology that meets those requirements would be just as good.


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## Dekes (Jan 3, 2007)

Mr.Bob said:


> How could it be solved with something that is impossible?
> 
> Anyway, you should probably qualify that to say a capacitor that is reasonably sized, stores enough energy to be useful, is made out of environmentally friendly materials and doesn't wear out. Unfortunately such a thing doesn't yet exist. Of course any energy storage technology that meets those requirements would be just as good.


Yes indeed, I just wanted to mention that a hybrid car at this moment harms the environment more than a regular car.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Dekes said:


> Well, first of all, hybrids are built as an environment-friendly car, but due to the huge battery, it defeats the purpose quite some. In fact, a hybrid is more harmful than a regular car with a small engine.


Actually, today's parallel hybrid batteries are quite small. The insight battery is the size and shape of a brief case and the Prius is the long and skinny like a box that would fit 2 baseball bats.

Though a newer technology, the nickel metal hydride (NiMD) battery should last Honda's warranty of 10 years or 150K miles. Your Lead Acid starter motor last around 4-6 years and the heavy metal lead is much more damaging than nickel. But don't worry, because 99% of a lead acid battery is recycled and NiMD batteries are also recycled. Ni is also used in steel alloys.

I would say that SUV hybrids have a sustainability problem, but it is wrong say that the Prius and Insight have a sustainability problem with their fuel economies. Remember were that fuel comes from.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Dekes said:


> Yes indeed, I just wanted to mention that a hybrid car at this moment harms the environment more than a regular car.


There was a article out there that got a lot of media hype about the Hummer being cleaner than the Prius. A lot of laymen bought right into this, but every point was picked apart in review by experts. The article was bogus, but the damage was already done.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Not sure I agree with you*



Dekes said:


> Well, first of all, hybrids are built as an environment-friendly car, but due to the huge battery, it defeats the purpose quite some. In fact, a hybrid is more harmful than a regular car with a small engine.
> This could be solved with capacitors, however, getting a capacitor with the capacity to move a car in that same car is impossible, as those capacitors are too big. A capacitor also never ever wears out, as a battery does quite fast. So sustainable development wise, that would be a pretty good thing. The thing with hybrid cars today is that they polute less to the air while they are driven but they are a horrible nightmare to the environment production and recycling wise.


Enviromental impact of batteries depends on chemistry. Strage as it sounds, the batteries with better chemistry have lower enviro impact. The NiMH batteries used in hybrids are 100% recycleable, and aren't that toxic, at least compared to SLA batteries. As long as they are treated well, they last 10 years or longer, as well. THere are some hypermile folks who run them down too far, and those are the ones that die early. LiIon batteries have the lowest enviro impact, but pack the most energy per pound.

Yeah, that Hummer vs. Prius arguement was laughable in how to cherry pick info. Right on the front page, it said that a Hummer was good for 300k miles but a Prius was good for 100k miles. That right there can account for the difference in thier cooked math. Heck, the battery in a Prius has a warranty for 150k miles. It was almost a test of who would fail critical thinking 101.

What is this about capacitors? I know they store energy in distorted electron orbits instead of a chemical reaction, but only really for short term storage. Yeah, they don't wear like batteries, but they can arc across the plates and fail. The Electrolytic capacitors I have used use as nasty a chemistry as any SLA battery, and they would have to be bigger than the car to store enough energy to be usefu to push that car... and that is an electrolytic! Compared to mylar or poly capacitors, electrolytics leak energy like crazy, so they would not be useful for this application anyway. You seen the electrolytics they sell for car stereo useage? They are the size of two soda cans put end to end, and they only pump out enough energy to run a 500 watt car amp for about 1/50 of a second. How big a capacitor do you think it will need to run a 65 KW electric motor for 1 minute to get a car up an on-ramp?


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## kristian (Jan 20, 2004)

Nice!!! Congrats on your purchase! I assume you know about greenhybrid.com and cleanmpg.com already, but if you don't, those are fantastic resources on how to maximize your FE.


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## big_sur (Apr 3, 2007)

well in terms of carbon footprint a hummer probably is better than a prius when you consider all the outsourcing involved in making it. You have the battery made in Canada then you ship it to japan for assembly, then you ship it back here to be sold. so while you're saving emissions driving it, it's gonna be tough to make up all that heavy bunker fuel you just burned making the car. the hummer on the other hand is at least built on one continent. Then after you're done driving the car you've got to dispose of that toxic battery. this isn't to say i don't like the concept of hybrid cars or helping out the environment but their impact is really not as significant as most owners would like to think.


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## kristian (Jan 20, 2004)

big_sur said:


> well in terms of carbon footprint a hummer probably is better than a prius when you consider all the outsourcing involved in making it. You have the battery made in Canada then you ship it to japan for assembly, then you ship it back here to be sold. so while you're saving emissions driving it, it's gonna be tough to make up all that heavy bunker fuel you just burned making the car. the hummer on the other hand is at least built on one continent. Then after you're done driving the car you've got to dispose of that toxic battery. this isn't to say i don't like the concept of hybrid cars or helping out the environment but their impact is really not as significant as most owners would like to think.


The battery is not made in Canada--it is made in Japan (or at least my Civic battery is Japanese). However, even if it were built in Canada, the shipping to Japan of a 100 pound battery would have a negligable carbon impact. Shipping the car over is a little more of an impact, but when you consider the weight percentage of an Insight relative to a cargo ship's capacity it is a small impact. Also, the batteries are NOT toxic and are fully recyclable. Compared to a Hummer that gets 10mpg in the city, I will take a little bit of shipping carbon and a recyclable battery pack any day to drive a 50mpg car!


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## Rufudufus (Apr 27, 2004)

Let's see a pic of your bike in the trunk! Doesn't look like there'd be that much space.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I remember...*



Rufudufus said:


> Let's see a pic of your bike in the trunk! Doesn't look like there'd be that much space.


... a post on Kerrylitka.com where she put two road bikes with a spare set of wheels in the back. Then again, she's pretty small, and road bikes are generally smaller... but two!


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Thanks for doing the wrong thing so that eventually we can get it right.

Appreciate it.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

29Colossus said:


> Thanks for doing the wrong thing so that eventually we can get it right.
> 
> Appreciate it.


As risk of feeding a troll, 29Colossus, did you post to the wrong thread?


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Rufudufus said:


> Let's see a pic of your bike in the trunk! Doesn't look like there'd be that much space.


Not my pic, but here is an example.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Killroy said:


> As risk of feeding a troll, 29Colossus, did you post to the wrong thread?


No.


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

I have a Honda Civic Hybrid and my CA car comes with the 10 year/150k mile warranty.

I avg about 44.5-46.3 - close to the new revised EPA 2008 ratings. (all cars are down by 10% or so)


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

Sweet rig Killroy. I am a big fan of the Insight. They sold them here in Australia for a while but have since moved on to the Civic Hybrid (which I think I heard they're going to discontinue as well). 

If I can afford it in the future (and if I can find one 2nd hand) I might get one of those for my wife so we can use it as the 'commuter' - provided they come up with a battery replacement for it's later life (maybe a big, honkin' Energizer battery that keeps going, and going, and going, and going ....)

I like the idea of a car that produces it's own electricity, as opposed to something like an electric car which - while great because it doesn't rely on fossil fuels, is also not-great, because the electricity to power it comes from really badly polluting fossil fuels. At least, that's the case in Australia where most of our power comes from some of the worst polluting coal plants in the Sth Hemisphere. If we had more solar, wind, hydroelectric .... even nuclear power, it would be more appealing to me.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

nuclear_powered said:


> I like the idea of a car that produces it's own electricity, as opposed to something like an electric car which - while great because it doesn't rely on fossil fuels, is also not-great, because the electricity to power it comes from really badly polluting fossil fuels. At least, that's the case in Australia where most of our power comes from some of the worst polluting coal plants in the Sth Hemisphere. If we had more solar, wind, hydroelectric .... even nuclear power, it would be more appealing to me.


I have to back-up electric cars here:

"What about pollution from generating the electricity?
An electric car is up to 97% cleaner than a comparable gas car, including the pollution generated by the electric power plant. *They are still cleaner than gasoline powered vehicles even if the electricity comes from "dirty" power, such as coal-fired plants*. The 97% number applies to states like California that use a lot of "clean" power, including hydro, nuclear, wind, and solar. These estimates are also based upon a new, smog-controlled car in perfect condition and state of tune. In real life, most cars on the road are several years old. Their smog control systems become less effective with age. Also, a gas car gets dirtier as it gets old and worn, or if it is out of tune. EVs don't. In fact, as utilities clean up their power plants to meet increasingly strict federal air quality standards, or owners have access to renewable sources of electricity, EVs will actually get cleaner.

These percentages are also skewed because compare all the fuel production pollution for the EV to the tailpipe emissions for the gas car. What about the pollution generated by extracting and refining the oil, and transporting it to the gas stations? "

http://www.eaaev.org/Flyers/index.html#Emissions


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## Carbon Ken (Mar 31, 2005)

Very nice Killroy!

I've always been a fan of the Insight. I'd love to have one as a daily commuter. Someday...


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

Can I ask how much you paid for her?

btw guys, they stopped making Honda Insight in 2006. I seen a version not to long ago with a different set of wheels on it, and it looked like a whole other beast!


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

I paid $7500 on ebay. I bought it sight unseen because there were about 50 glossy pictures on ebay. It looked relly really good and I was impressed. When I got it, I could see all the blemishes that were impossible to see because the resolution of the pictures were not as good as you would get with a modern digital. Lesson learned. You win some you loose some. I'm picky and I would even say that it rates as a poor on the KBB.com. Its worth about $7000. 

I read a lot of reviews and people complained about the radio the most. The cars all come with a tape deck only. So everyone puts in a CD player like the one in mine. Regardless, the speakers suck. I don’t listen to ma CD player loud, so I have always been satisfied with stock systems, but not this one. The speakers are so crappy its sad. In the end I will have about 2k in my pocket from selling my Miata.


I like the car for its utility, but I wish it was a little newer. I just need it until 2010 when all the extended range electric vehicle (EREV or PHEV) go into productions by the big car companies. With a EREV its possible that I would only fill up with gas for 1000 miles or 15% of annual driving. I bike commute 4-5 days/week. The rest of the time I will fill-up with cleaner, domestically produced electricity.


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

Thanks Kilroy.

Intresting note about the stereo - as my 2004 civic hybrid stereo has some grunt, good highs, and basic lows, people often ask me if my car has a sub woofer in the trunk!

My main complaint about my car, is that the seat in the rear doesnt fold down, and also the battery is built into the truck, making any tasks involving anything large a pain. (because of that, I was seriously thinking about getting the insight, but the lack of the rear seat stopped me)

Good luck with her, and you should register for www.greenhybrids.com and www.gassavers.org ! :thumbsup*


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

carbnjunkie said:


> Thanks Kilroy.
> 
> Intresting note about the stereo - as my 2004 civic hybrid stereo has some grunt, good highs, and basic lows, people often ask me if my car has a sub woofer in the trunk!
> 
> ...


Those sites are cool.

My miata (which is on the market if anyone wants to buy one), has a Bose stereo. I think I have been spoiled by that Bose. When real audio junkies review the Bose systems that come in cars a features usually they give them a thumbs down, but mine bumps.

I think Honda ran out of money developing the Insight so they skimped on the radio. Unfortunatly, the average American wants 4 doors even if they drive by themselves most of the time, so the insight was discontinued for the 4 door civic hybrid.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I had one....*



Killroy said:


> Those sites are cool.
> 
> My miata (which is on the market if anyone wants to buy one), has a Bose stereo. I think I have been spoiled by that Bose. When real audio junkies review the Bose systems that come in cars a features usually they give them a thumbs down, but mine bumps.
> 
> I think Honda ran out of money developing the Insight so they skimped on the radio. Unfortunatly, the average American wants 4 doors even if they drive by themselves most of the time, so the insight was discontinued for the 4 door civic hybrid.


... in my Jetta GLX, and it had loads of bottom... really too much. I actually dialed down the bass a few dbs. It had nothing else going for it except sheer volume. No detail, the bass was big, but really sloppy... I actually preferred the stock crappy paper seperate speakers in my GTi with a Pioneer aftermarket head.... like the $160 one that plays MP3 discs. It doesn't have as much bottom or volume, but it has way more clarity.

Good thing you can get a decent head unit for under $200 these days. Pair it up with a good set of coax speakers and you can have a fat grin on your face while you ruin your hearing. You won't impress anybody in the 'hood blasting Too $hort, but it would be decent.

Too bad the discontinued the Insight. It filled a nice niche. Did I hear they were bringing back the CRx in hybrid form? I liked the purpose built hybrid designed from the bottom up to get the most per gallon. The alu frame, the lean-burn 3cyl engine, the aerodynamics and ground effects, lots of shaved weight...


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## DrBlalock (Nov 29, 2007)

Nice ride, 63mpg dang!! My Jetta TDI gets 50mpg but it runs only on diesel with no batteries to replace other than the one that starts the engine


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Here is my Hybrid ...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

DrBlalock said:


> Nice ride, 63mpg dang!! My Jetta TDI gets 50mpg but it runs only on diesel with no batteries to replace other than the one that starts the engine


What year do you have? Are you running Bio Diesel? In 2008 there will be some really clean versions that have urea injection. (Its like peeing on you exhaust to clean out the N0x)

I have a love hate-relationship with diesel. I love it because with diesel you can increase the compression ratio a lot and that improves efficiency. I hate it because it is dirty, smelly and it costs about 9% more. Diesel is more massivly dense and energy dense by volume by about 15%, so it really is a comparing apples to oranges. The way I look at it is 50 mpg of diesel = 39 mpg gas. Plus, if you are concerned about rapid climate change risk mitigation then you should know that a Jeta TDI has two times the carbon footprint per mile.

One more thing. Around 2010 the US will learn that batteries are the best solution.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

Hey Killroy, Did defensive driving classes come with the purchase of your hybrid???

J/K


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

*CR-Z hybrid, hope so!*



pimpbot said:


> ... in my Jetta GLX, and it had loads of bottom... really too much. I actually dialed down the bass a few dbs. It had nothing else going for it except sheer volume. No detail, the bass was big, but really sloppy... I actually preferred the stock crappy paper seperate speakers in my GTi with a Pioneer aftermarket head.... like the $160 one that plays MP3 discs. It doesn't have as much bottom or volume, but it has way more clarity.
> 
> Good thing you can get a decent head unit for under $200 these days. Pair it up with a good set of coax speakers and you can have a fat grin on your face while you ruin your hearing. You won't impress anybody in the 'hood blasting Too $hort, but it would be decent.
> 
> Too bad the discontinued the Insight. It filled a nice niche. Did I hear they were bringing back the CRx in hybrid form? I liked the purpose built hybrid designed from the bottom up to get the most per gallon. The alu frame, the lean-burn 3cyl engine, the aerodynamics and ground effects, lots of shaved weight...


http://blogs.hondatuningmagazine.com/6219931/honda-news/honda-cr-z-concept/index.html

From what I've heard, its a maybe! Most people hope so!


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Dekes said:


> Well, first of all, hybrids are built as an environment-friendly car, but due to the huge battery, it defeats the purpose quite some. In fact, a hybrid is more harmful than a regular car with a small engine.
> This could be solved with capacitors, however, getting a capacitor with the capacity to move a car in that same car is impossible, as those capacitors are too big. A capacitor also never ever wears out, as a battery does quite fast. So sustainable development wise, that would be a pretty good thing. The thing with hybrid cars today is that they polute less to the air while they are driven but they are a horrible nightmare to the environment production and recycling wise.


Hahaha arguably the funniest garbage I've read today.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

Hybrids are a big joke unless you are a tree hugging earth humper that only cares about the short term and your own country. 
Do some research on where the materials for the batteries are mined, how they are built, shipped and then how they are planning on disposing of them after their short lifespan. :nono: 

Buy a diesel car, great city and awesome highway. They last 3X longer than a gas car and 6X longer than hybrid. Oh and they have balls to back up the great MPG's.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

boogenman said:


> Hybrids are a big joke unless you are a tree hugging earth humper that only cares about the short term and your own country.
> Do some research on where the materials for the batteries are mined, how they are built, shipped and then how they are planning on disposing of them after their short lifespan. :nono:
> 
> Buy a diesel car, great city and awesome highway. They last 3X longer than a gas car and 6X longer than hybrid. Oh and they have balls to back up the great MPG's.


Even if you have to replace your NiMH (or Lion pack) every 5 years, I'm sure the "carbon foot print" of mining a kg or so of Nickel is far smaller than driving a 10MPG gas pig for the same amount of time.

Where does your oil come from? How much crap is discarded to produce your gallon of highly refined diesel/gasoline? How many wars does the US have to wage to quench its oil thirst?

Yes diesel is better than gas, but not by much. As mentioned it has a higher volumetric energy content then gasoline and that makes up a large portion of the MPG benefit as well as the marginally more efficient engine due to the high compression ratio.

The best is actually a full electric vehicle, for many many reasons.

The simple fact is, that burning oil in any form is not a good way forward, calling people that actually understand this a "hippy" is pretty typical of ignorant people, you succumb to name calling rather than arguing logically.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*+1*



essenmeinstuff said:


> Even if you have to replace your NiMH (or Lion pack) every 5 years, I'm sure the "carbon foot print" of mining a kg or so of Nickel is far smaller than driving a 10MPG gas pig for the same amount of time.
> 
> Where does your oil come from? How much crap is discarded to produce your gallon of highly refined diesel/gasoline? How many wars does the US have to wage to quench its oil thirst?
> 
> ...


Yeah!

I suggest you read up on NiMH batteries. Way less toxic than SLA, NiCAD or Alkaline, plus they are 100% recycleable, unlike the other batteries. LiIon is even cleaner.

This mistaken info originally came from a marketing group that tried to paint the Prius as using 3 times the resources as a Hummer, and it spread around the internet as fact, when in reality it was put out by a think tank with loads of Oil execs on the board of directors.

You do the math.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Not to mention....*



Killroy said:


> I have to back-up electric cars here:
> 
> "What about pollution from generating the electricity?
> An electric car is up to 97% cleaner than a comparable gas car, including the pollution generated by the electric power plant. *They are still cleaner than gasoline powered vehicles even if the electricity comes from "dirty" power, such as coal-fired plants*. The 97% number applies to states like California that use a lot of "clean" power, including hydro, nuclear, wind, and solar. These estimates are also based upon a new, smog-controlled car in perfect condition and state of tune. In real life, most cars on the road are several years old. Their smog control systems become less effective with age. Also, a gas car gets dirtier as it gets old and worn, or if it is out of tune. EVs don't. In fact, as utilities clean up their power plants to meet increasingly strict federal air quality standards, or owners have access to renewable sources of electricity, EVs will actually get cleaner.
> ...


EVs are rediculously simple. I think part of the reason that car mfgs are reluctant to go to full electrics is that they will be out of the loop on a lot of replacement part sales. I read somewhere that about 30% of a mfg's profits come from part sales. Since there isn't a whole lot that wears out on an EV... pretty much batteries, armatures, and brushes, they can go a very long time without needing any work. Compare that to how complicated a gas engine is. Valves, cams, cranks, rods, pistons...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

boogenman said:


> Hybrids are a big joke unless you are a tree hugging earth humper that only cares about the short term and your own country.
> Do some research on where the materials for the batteries are mined, how they are built, shipped and then how they are planning on disposing of them after their short lifespan. :nono:
> 
> Buy a diesel car, great city and awesome highway. They last 3X longer than a gas car and 6X longer than hybrid. Oh and they have balls to back up the great MPG's.


boogenman, I think you have been deceived about hybrids from the following article. Make sure you read the comments, by Joe Romm (DOE). Joe pics apart the article and disproves every point.

I said it before, but bio-diesel is great, but regular diesel, is typically dirty, expensive and requires more fossil fuel to refine. Not only do you pay more for the fuel, but you pay more for the car.

"Diesel engines, however, emit higher levels of two toxic pollutants than do gasoline engines fitted with catalytic converters. These are particulate matter (PM) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). Both of these pollutants affect human health and also damage the environment." http://www.cdti.com/emissions_environment.html

Diesel cars are getting cleaner with urea (yes, the stuff in your pee) injection though.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

pimpbot said:


> EVs are rediculously simple. I think part of the reason that car mfgs are reluctant to go to full electrics is that they will be out of the loop on a lot of replacement part sales. I read somewhere that about 30% of a mfg's profits come from part sales. Since there isn't a whole lot that wears out on an EV... pretty much batteries, armatures, and brushes, they can go a very long time without needing any work. Compare that to how complicated a gas engine is. Valves, cams, cranks, rods, pistons...


The Insight would make decent electric car convention because its only 1900 lb and it is aerodynamic.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

Killroy said:


> boogenman, I think you have been deceived about hybrids from the following article. Make sure you read the comments, by Joe Romm (DOE). Joe pics apart the article and disproves every point.
> 
> I said it before, but bio-diesel is great, but regular diesel, is typically dirty, expensive and requires more fossil fuel to refine. Not only do you pay more for the fuel, but you pay more for the car.
> 
> ...


From memory typical yeild from a barrel of crude (exact numbers depend on where the crude is from and the refining process) is about 45% gasoline, 20odd percent fuel oil (diesel etc) 6% jet fuel, 3 or 4% LPG plus some other stuff.

So you need to refine roughly twice the crude to get the same amount of diesel as gas from one barrel.

Bio diesel is a waste of time, since you need land to make it, and that land is currently being used to make food, I read a statistic somewhere, that even if all the farmland in the US was converted to rape seed growing it would only supply about 25% of the US diesel consumption, and you guys would all starve...

Fuel cells are a diversion tactic, you need hydrogen, which right now would come from oil. If you used electrolysis thats fine, but why waste perfectly good electricity making hydrogen that goes into a fuel cell that is only 40% or so efficient at converting that potential energy back to electricity??

The only plausible solution to our collective transportation requirements is electric vehicles, that electricity should come from solar/nuclear/wind/tidal/hydro.


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## Cata1yst (Dec 27, 2007)

This is cool....you guys answered a lot of my questions about alternative fuel sources that i have pondered while flying up climbs and stuff

But here is a couple things that I need to add
Oil companies, if you take a look at who is fueling the 2008 campaigns, im sure that Oil companies are up top on the list of "donors" As a result when someone tries to push for cleaner fuel or maybe make alternative fuel a viable option like diesel or w/e all they have to do is call up someone in the government and slow it down...wayy down. Just take a look at Europes fuel evolution compared to the US...we are supposed to have 12% of cars high efficency Diesel while they are in much much higher percentages. And im sure they also have their fingers in automotive manufacturer's top brass.

But its cool to see people doing what they can, and not to mention the weight lifted from our pocket books


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Bio diesel is a waste of time, since you need land to make it, and that land is currently being used to make food, I read a statistic somewhere, that even if all the farmland in the US was converted to rape seed growing it would only supply about 25% of the US diesel consumption, and you guys would all starve...


It seems like any crops used to make fuel is a waste.  I only think waste cooking oil is good for Bio Diesel. Obviously, the amount of oil will only meet the needs of some.



essenmeinstuff said:


> The only plausible solution to our collective transportation requirements is electric vehicles, that electricity should come from solar/nuclear/wind/tidal/hydro.


10-4. Read you loud and clear.


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## Xcelrr8 (Apr 4, 2007)

I've got your alternative fuel source right here. Guess how many miles I get out of this little baby.


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## Cata1yst (Dec 27, 2007)

How far does premium corn meal get you? i bet you can squeeze out a whole horsepower :thumbsup:


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## Xcelrr8 (Apr 4, 2007)

Premium corn gets me 10 miles, premium beans gets me 20 but I end up passing out from the gas. There's just no where to go...


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## BikinAggie (Oct 13, 2006)

The cloud of smug hanging over this thread is getting close to dangerous levels.


*sits back and hopes somebody gets the reference*


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## DrBlalock (Nov 29, 2007)

Killroy said:


> What year do you have? Are you running Bio Diesel? In 2008 there will be some really clean versions that have urea injection. (Its like peeing on you exhaust to clean out the N0x)
> 
> I have a love hate-relationship with diesel. I love it because with diesel you can increase the compression ratio a lot and that improves efficiency. I hate it because it is dirty, smelly and it costs about 9% more. Diesel is more massivly dense and energy dense by volume by about 15%, so it really is a comparing apples to oranges. The way I look at it is 50 mpg of diesel = 39 mpg gas. Plus, if you are concerned about rapid climate change risk mitigation then you should know that a Jeta TDI has two times the carbon footprint per mile.
> 
> One more thing. Around 2010 the US will learn that batteries are the best solution.


First of all, new diesels are no longer dirty, smelly, or hard to start.. at least with the new technology in the cars. I have a friend with a 2006 Jetta TDI and she is from Wisconsin; I asked her if it ever had problems starting up in the extreme cold and she said that it never had a problem starting up in -20 weather there so that she isn't concerned about it. My cousin used to work at Bosch and was the head guy for their diesel development division. He was the one who got CRD (Common Rail Diesel) to the automakers and what do ya know, the 2008 Jetta TDI will have the CRD. How do you get that 50mpg is like 39 in a gasser? How does this even compare? If we go by what you said that diesel has 15% more energy content in the fuel (which it does have more than gas) then 15% off of 50 is 42.5 if i'm not mistaken... Next up, your argument that my 50mpg Jetta TDI puts out "two times" the amount of carbon per mile than a gasser. As one with a degree in chemistry, this is not even possible!! Unless diesel has twice the number of carbon atoms in the same volume as gasoline this isn't even possible. Plus, that doesn't even consider the fact my car will go waaay farther on one gallon than a gasser. Maybe what you mean to say is that diesels have more incomplete combustion leaving more soot (carbon) to come out the tail pipe. Last i checked carbon by itself was not a green house gas, in fact, not a gas at all, goes right to the ground to be with all the other inorganic atoms.

Bottom line, we ARE comparing apples to oranges and in this case one is better and has far more potential. The best the gassers can do to switch to sustainable fuel is alcohol which isn't even close to sustainable by using corn especially with how much energy the US uses.

My solution, start promoting clean diesels like they have been doing in countries such as Germany for years (over 60% of cars on the road there are diesels). In the mean time we should start building the algae farms in our nations desserts as it is our best option for making sustainable biodiesel. I'm not concerned about the environment.. has nothing to do with why I bought my car. Nature has always taken its course and nobody has ever been able to stop that. What I am concerned about is how much money leaves my wallet for fuel and how much we have to import from other countries.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

BikinAggie said:


> The cloud of smug hanging over this thread is getting close to dangerous levels.
> 
> *sits back and hopes somebody gets the reference*


I love that episode.


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## Dubtastic (Dec 4, 2005)

I like the beginning when Kyles dad is driving around putting those fake tickets on everyones suv's and trucks.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

DrBlalock said:


> How do you get that 50mpg is like 39 in a gasser? How does this even compare? If we go by what you said that diesel has 15% more energy content in the fuel (which it does have more than gas) then 15% off of 50 is 42.5 if i'm not mistaken... Next up, your argument that my 50mpg Jetta TDI puts out "two times" the amount of carbon per mile than a gasser. As one with a degree in chemistry, this is not even possible!! Unless diesel has twice the number of carbon atoms in the same volume as gasoline this isn't even possible. Plus, that doesn't even consider the fact my car will go waaay farther on one gallon than a gasser. Maybe what you mean to say is that diesels have more incomplete combustion leaving more soot (carbon) to come out the tail pipe. Last i checked carbon by itself was not a green house gas, in fact, not a gas at all, goes right to the ground to be with all the other inorganic atoms.


The 2006 Jetta TDI puts out 2 times as much Green House Gasses (GHG) as the 2000 Insight. Check it out: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

2006 Jetta TDI @15k miles = 6.4 tons of CO2 equivalent
2000 Insight @ 15k miles = 3.5 tons of CO2 equivalent

"50mpg is like 39 in a gasser" because the Fuel is more volumetrically dense and Diesel cost more per gallon. I think the cost would be more, because as we talked about before, Diesel takes 2 times as much crude oil as gas to refine. and the only reason diesel is not 2X gas prices is because there is a small tax break on it and demand is lower.

Diesel vs. Gas: http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm
Different numbers that presented, but still the same quality as before.

The article also explains why Diesel is so popular across the pond. Its the fuel cost. In Europe diesel is given a huge tax break so it is cheaper than gas. Also, their pollution standards have not been as strict as ours.


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## medieval (Oct 7, 2007)

I know I'm a bit late coming to this discussion, but congrats on the Insight purchase Killroy. :thumbsup: I picked up my silver 2000 back in November, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I average 61 MPG in mixed driving, and get to use the HOV lane during my commute.

I've taken plenty of crap from people about driving such a little "toy" or how hybrids are just a fad. I just laugh as I get 600 mi. per 10 gallon tank, and only fill up once a month, and that's winter mileage. Once the weather warms up it should improve by close to 10%. I've learned to ignore all the naysayers, they just seem to be jealous or ignorant.

Another good site to check out is insightcentral.net. There are a lot of good people over there with loads of knowledge and advice on how to get the most from your car. I just wish one of them had a good way to get a Lefty equipped Prophet in under the back hatch. I don't want to have to remove the wheel each time I go riding.


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## Cata1yst (Dec 27, 2007)

I want an insight, and i want one with a turbo and a performance/high efficency carb and fuel injection system....resealed valves w/ performance pistons and a higher compression...mmm performance and MPG's....sweeeet


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

Just a quick note guys;

My civic hybrid 2004 manual

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0405_hybrid_car_comparison

(like that one) just had its hybrid battery fail @ 89k. The car was working fine, and I was still getting around 46 mpg. Dealership was surprised, and said they had never seen one fail so early.

Anyways, just a fyi.


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## den9 (May 25, 2006)

doesnt making and disposing the battery cause alot of pollution

how much do these batteries cost anyway?

i have a tdi that gets about 38-44 mpg and diesel is 100 year old proven technology, and lasts forever


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## carbnjunkie (Aug 21, 2003)

CA has a warranty required on hybrid related components till 10 years/150k.

However, I asked asked the dealer if I could keep the battery, when they told me 

"sorry, it gets sent to Honda, where they will recycle it."


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## medieval (Oct 7, 2007)

den9 said:


> doesnt making and disposing the battery cause alot of pollution
> 
> how much do these batteries cost anyway?
> 
> i have a tdi that gets about 38-44 mpg and diesel is 100 year old proven technology, and lasts forever


Making the batteries makes pollution, but it's no worse than all the lead acid batteries out there. The NiMh and Li-Ion batteries are 100% recyclable.

Quotes I have seen for the Insight packs run in the $4000-$5000 range. They are warranted for 10 years/150,000 miles though. I have 3 years until I have to start worrying about it.

Electric car technology dates back to the 1830's, predating diesel by about 60 years. The rest of the engine is simple internal combustion. With out the electric motor, the Insight still gets 50+ MPG, it just accelerates slower.


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## Dekes (Jan 3, 2007)

Diesel is 40 times worse than petrol/gasoline when it comes to carcinogenic pollutants. Petrol/hybrid FTW !!


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## DrBlalock (Nov 29, 2007)

Dekes said:


> Diesel is 40 times worse than petrol/gasoline when it comes to carcinogenic pollutants. Petrol/hybrid FTW !!


As previously stated somewhere in this post, the new clean diesels use a urea solution which is sprayed into the exhaust to render the NHx harmless as it bonds to it and chemically changes the molecule. Diesel also has far better potential to someday be the basis for biofuel. Our country simply cannot produce enough ethanol to run our gasoline engines. The same might be said for diesel, however we aren't even utilizing our country's deserts for algae growth as that is top of the list for photosynthesis and biofuel extraction. If we harvested corn on every acre of farm-able land in our country we still wouldnt come close to making enough ethanol... not to mention growing corn is hard on the ground and it requires lots of petro fertilizer...

I predict the price of oil will rise very very rapidly over the next decade and if our race isn't smart enough to see that coming then we will see a depression era that will make the 30s seem like good times...

On a different note, who's psyched about mountain biking?? haha


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

den9 said:


> doesnt making and disposing the battery cause alot of pollution
> 
> how much do these batteries cost anyway?
> 
> i have a tdi that gets about 38-44 mpg and diesel is 100 year old proven technology, and lasts forever


Do you ever have a hard time finding diesel? That stuff ain't cheap.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*No, wait....*



mbyard said:


> Making the batteries makes pollution, but it's no worse than all the lead acid batteries out there.


Manufacturing a NiMH battery pollutes _way _less than Sealed Lead Acid (SLA).


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## DrBlalock (Nov 29, 2007)

Killroy said:


> Do you ever have a hard time finding diesel? That stuff ain't cheap.


Diesel stations are all over here in St. Louis. They current price for diesel here is 3.099/gal which is cheaper than gasoline in most states. Our gas prices for regular unleaded I think are around 2.80-2.899/gal. So it costs a little more per gallon but you pay less per mile with diesel (in my car at least) than the gasoline equivalent. Honestly I dont have the diesel car to save the environment, I have it its cheap as hell to run.

To me, when you think about the long term, diesel vs. hybrid, a comparable size diesel car would be cheaper. Diesel engines alone have less moving parts which is why it is not uncommon to see hundreds of thousands of miles on them and still run like they are new. I only have to change the oil every 10,000 miles. It costs me about 40 bucks in parts to change the oil and its easy so I do it myself, I also have a manual transmission which has few moving parts and I might have to replace the clutch somewhere.. maybe. Hybrids however not only have lots more moving parts in the engine because they run on gasoline, but they have an electric motor (something else that can go bad), a special transmission for running two engines (tons of moving parts which can go bad), and in the long run you will spend thousands of dollars for a new battery.

I like to think of how many gallons of fuel would just say $2000 buy me. A lot. Now is the difference in costs after you do aaalllllllll the math worth it to buy a hybrid? NO.

My hypothesis is that this is easy marketing to our ignorant society. A cllleaan, greeeeen hybrid, vs a diesel?!?!? "Oh my God, chose the hybrid!!" Bottom line, if you actually take a realistic perspective to the dollars and cents of these two options one of them is the clear winner.


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## den9 (May 25, 2006)

diesel is everywhere

and u say electric cars were 60 years ahead of diesels? they sure as hell never put them on the market! no thanks to a 5000 dollar battery either, i thought you were suppose to be saving money with hybrids, plus my car can run off biodiesel, so if oil ever runs out like they say ill still be driving, but biodiesel prices might be 10 bucks a gallon.

how much power does the insight and prius make?


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## mor4wd (Jun 18, 2007)

den9 said:


> diesel is everywhere
> 
> and u say electric cars were 60 years ahead of diesels? they sure as hell never put them on the market! no thanks to a 5000 dollar battery either, i thought you were suppose to be saving money with hybrids, plus my car can run off biodiesel, so if oil ever runs out like they say ill still be driving, but biodiesel prices might be 10 bucks a gallon.
> 
> how much power does the insight and prius make?


Do a little homework before you talk. Check out the movie "Who killed the Electric Car". Just to get you started. 
I drive a Prius, not because I care about pollution but because I love getting 50mpg. Plus, I bought the car with a salvage tile because the fender was smashed, so cheap. 
Cheers.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

den9 said:


> diesel is everywhere
> 
> and u say electric cars were 60 years ahead of diesels? they sure as hell never put them on the market! no thanks to a 5000 dollar battery either, i thought you were suppose to be saving money with hybrids, plus my car can run off biodiesel, so if oil ever runs out like they say ill still be driving, but biodiesel prices might be 10 bucks a gallon.
> 
> how much power does the insight and prius make?


I totally understand all the benefits of the diesel, but I have some major problems with then that we have gone over already:

1. Though brand new diesels are tier II, bin 5, Diesel is a dirty fuel. Anything older than 2009 pollutes like gangbusters. This matters to me because I am a mountain biker and I can see the smog collect in the bay every time I climb up the local hills.

2. Energy Security: Diesel requires 25% more crude oil to produce than gasoline.

3. You may be getting 50 mph, but Green House Gas (GHG) emissions are at least 15% more when burned in your car per volume of gasoline. When diesel is refined from crude 17% GHGs are produced than gasoline.

4. Diesel fuel cost 10% more than gas

5. Diesel cars cost more.

6. Biodiesel is great when recycled from cooking frys, but bio fuels will never be sustainable.

The future will be electric vehicles and buying hybrid supports that future.


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## Dekes (Jan 3, 2007)

Killroy said:


> I totally understand all the benefits of the diesel, but I have some major problems with then that we have gone over already:
> 
> 1. Though brand new diesels are tier II, bin 5, Diesel is a dirty fuel. Anything older than 2009 pollutes like gangbusters. This matters to me because I am a mountain biker and I can see the smog collect in the bay every time I climb up the local hills.
> 
> ...


I must say that diesel in europe is generally 2/3 of the price of petrol/gasoline. Much different than in the US.


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## medieval (Oct 7, 2007)

DrBlalock said:


> On a different note, who's psyched about mountain biking?? haha


Human power, the ultimate renewable resource.


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## medieval (Oct 7, 2007)

DrBlalock said:


> To me, when you think about the long term, diesel vs. hybrid, a comparable size diesel car would be cheaper. Diesel engines alone have less moving parts which is why it is not uncommon to see hundreds of thousands of miles on them and still run like they are new. I only have to change the oil every 10,000 miles. It costs me about 40 bucks in parts to change the oil and its easy so I do it myself, I also have a manual transmission which has few moving parts and I might have to replace the clutch somewhere.. maybe. Hybrids however not only have lots more moving parts in the engine because they run on gasoline, but they have an electric motor (something else that can go bad), a special transmission for running two engines (tons of moving parts which can go bad), and in the long run you will spend thousands of dollars for a new battery.


I've heard that diesels run longer because the fuel helps to lubricate the valves and pistons. There certainly are not fewer moving parts. Some diesels even have more moving parts than gas engines. I also change my own oil, every 6000 mi. Costs the same as any other car.

The Honda hybrid system has the electric motor mounted in place of the flywheel, therefore, no extra parts. Toyota uses a much more complicated setup with 2 electric motors and an extra differential. Hopefully by the time my battery fails, the prices will have come down significantly.

Hybrids aren't for everybody, but I wouldn't trade mine for anything else made today. I'm waiting for a viable full electric to hit the market.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I read...*



den9 said:


> diesel is everywhere
> 
> and u say electric cars were 60 years ahead of diesels? they sure as hell never put them on the market! no thanks to a 5000 dollar battery either, i thought you were suppose to be saving money with hybrids, plus my car can run off biodiesel, so if oil ever runs out like they say ill still be driving, but biodiesel prices might be 10 bucks a gallon.
> 
> how much power does the insight and prius make?


the battery is more like $2000.

As far as power, IIRC the Insight is like 65hp for the gas engine, and the electric makes another 30-40 hp... off the top of my head.

The real benifit is that the electric motor makes a monster amount of torque at 0 rpm, so right off the line, you use the electric and not gas to get the car rolling, which is where most of the gas is wasted. IIRC, the electric motor torque makes like 275 ft/lbs or something off the charts like that.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

mbyard said:


> Human power, the ultimate renewable resource.


I wish more Americans would realize this. A lot of people think bikes for transportation are jokes. They say that they are 19 century solutions to 21 century problems. I say the simplest solutions are usually the best. A lot of cyclists don't have this figured out.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Dekes said:


> I must say that diesel in europe is generally 2/3 of the price of petrol/gasoline. Much different than in the US.


European diesel has a gigantic tax brake. I don't know why. Some people say, "We should go to diesel cars. Europe drives 50% diesel." That is comparing apples to oranges because of diesel cost at the pump and looser emission standards.


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## DrBlalock (Nov 29, 2007)

Killroy said:


> I totally understand all the benefits of the diesel, but I have some major problems with then that we have gone over already:
> 
> 1. Though brand new diesels are tier II, bin 5, Diesel is a dirty fuel. Anything older than 2009 pollutes like gangbusters. This matters to me because I am a mountain biker and I can see the smog collect in the bay every time I climb up the local hills.
> 
> ...


1. Thats the cost of living in a very high density area... And who's to say this is because of diesel? The new diesels cut out the NHx which causes that smog you hate so much... so really your priuses will be contributing more to smog once the newer diesels are more prevalent. Mind you any change is going to take a long time.

2. Back that up. I'm pretty sure diesel fuel is the byproduct of the refining of oil to make gasoline. Which is why diesel is cheaper than gasoline in the summer and a little more expensive in the winter... economics 101.

3. Just my opinion.. but who cares? If we really affect the environment then natural will balance out the problem in the loooooong run. If that means some rich people who have mulitimillion dollar homes on the shores lose their houses then so be it.

4. Every summer diesel is cheaper than gasoline... at least here in the midwest... I don't know why it would be different anywhere else. Plus, unlike gasoline, prices vary a lot from station to station because of a lower demand. So if one is smart then they will know how to find the cheapest station. www.stlouisgasprices.com for me. They have a site for every state and major city.

5. They cost more than the equivalent gas powered car. For my car (Jetta TDI) if you calculate average MPG in both then figure the price of fuel and calculate how long you must drive before you start saving money you might be surprised. And the cost of a diesel vs. hybrid, although not DIRECTLY comparable, the diesel wins.

6. Biofuel for diesels has a much Much MUCH better chance of being sustainable than ethanol for your gasser could ever dream. Research biodiesel from algae. However, any biofuel is going to cost more than gasoline until demand is so high that it becomes cost effective.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that China and other countries are putting a much heavier demand on oil and obviously prices are going to keep rising. I don't care who is in office, politicians can only do so much. Prices WILL continue to rise until it becomes worth it to produce biofuel as a streamlined fuel. Is it so terrible to even think that just MAYBE we've been spoiled by cheap gas prices for as long as we can remember? Look at what Europeans pay for gasoline. The days of cheap energy are coming to an end, people need to stop wining about it because nothing is going to change that. If people are dumb enough to not prepare for it, then just like nature will take care of humans if we crap on this planet, then society will take care of them.


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

mbyard said:


> I've heard that diesels run longer because the fuel helps to lubricate the valves and pistons. There certainly are not fewer moving parts. Some diesels even have more moving parts than gas engines. I also change my own oil, every 6000 mi. Costs the same as any other car.


 Diesels used to have fewer moving parts because ignition systems were mechanical. Even with electronic ignitions anyone who's ever had ignition problems can appreciate the diesel. (And anyone who's ever lived where it gets really cold can appreciate an engine with a spark )

I read somewhere that diesels last longer because they're usually over designed to handle the higher compression. Very few gas powered engines see 200,000 miles, but it's not unusual with a diesel.


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## medieval (Oct 7, 2007)

California L33 said:


> Very few gas powered engines see 200,000 miles, but it's not unusual with a diesel.


My father had a 1984 diesel van that had 350,000 mi. on the original engine when he sold it last year, and it was still running strong. I've yet to own a car long enough to rack up that many miles.

Diesels certainly have their advantages, but with gas here in CA at $3.15 (and diesel at around $3.30), I want to go as far per gallon as I can.

I wish I could ride the bike to work, but it's 30 mi. of freeway, with no safe bike route.

Oh well, I'm home now, and it's time to go for a ride.:rockon:


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*DUnno what cars you are driving...*



California L33 said:


> Diesels used to have fewer moving parts because ignition systems were mechanical. Even with electronic ignitions anyone who's ever had ignition problems can appreciate the diesel. (And anyone who's ever lived where it gets really cold can appreciate an engine with a spark )
> 
> I read somewhere that diesels last longer because they're usually over designed to handle the higher compression. Very few gas powered engines see 200,000 miles, but it's not unusual with a diesel.


but I have never owned a car that got less than 250k miles on the engine. My old Scirocco got 310k miles before I sold it, and it was still running great.

Granted, diesels last longer. Electrics last even longer than that.... or at least when the engines fail, you can swap major parts out of them yourself.


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

pimpbot said:


> but I have never owned a car that got less than 250k miles on the engine. My old Scirocco got 310k miles before I sold it, and it was still running great.
> 
> Granted, diesels last longer. Electrics last even longer than that.... or at least when the engines fail, you can swap major parts out of them yourself.


In the future I'll write- Very few gas powered engines (except pimpbot's) see 200,000 miles, but it's not unusual with a diesel.

Why did you sell the Scirocco?


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## den9 (May 25, 2006)

mor4wd said:


> Do a little homework before you talk. Check out the movie "Who killed the Electric Car". Just to get you started.
> I drive a Prius, not because I care about pollution but because I love getting 50mpg. Plus, I bought the car with a salvage tile because the fender was smashed, so cheap.
> Cheers.


why do you think i bought a tdi?


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

DrBlalock said:


> 1. Thats the cost of living in a very high density area... And who's to say this is because of diesel? The new diesels cut out the NHx which causes that smog you hate so much... so really your priuses will be contributing more to smog once the newer diesels are more prevalent. Mind you any change is going to take a long time.
> 
> 2. Back that up. I'm pretty sure diesel fuel is the byproduct of the refining of oil to make gasoline. Which is why diesel is cheaper than gasoline in the summer and a little more expensive in the winter... economics 101.
> 
> ...


1. The problem with diesels is not really the NOx, but the Particulate Matter. CARB http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/diesel/diesel-health.htm"Diesel engines emit a complex mixture of air pollutants, composed of gaseous and solid material. The visible emissions in diesel exhaust are known as or PM. In 1998, California identified diesel exhaust particulate matter (PM) as a toxic air contaminant based on its potential to cause cancer, premature death, and other health problems. Diesel engines also contribute to California's fine particulate matter (PM2.5) air quality problems. Those most vulnerable are children whose lungs are still developing and the elderly who may have other serious health problems. Based on year 2000 emissions in California, diesel PM contributes each year to 2000 premature deaths and thousands of hospital admissions, asthma attacks and other respiratory symptoms, and lost workdays. Overall, diesel engine emissions are responsible for the majority of California's known cancer risk from outdoor air pollutants. In addition, diesel soot causes visibility reduction and is a potent global warmer. The document describing Diesel Exhaust as a Toxic Air Contaminant is listed on this page."

2. "it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, so we should really look at how a vehicle does on fuel efficiency in terms of "oil equivalents." Thus, we need to adjust the mileage claims for diesel vehicles downward by about 20% when comparing them to gasoline-powered vehicles." http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

3. Who cares? Think of it as risk management. That's a whole other thread.

4. The Prius is cheaper at $21-23k, when the '08 Jetta TDI is $25K

5. Econ 101. In the winter, Diesel is priecy because it competes with heating oil. In the summer to clean up the air, more ethanol is added to gas, witch make it more expensive. As far as I know, diesels is dirty year round.

6. I really hope algae biodiesel is much better than corn ethanol

I agree we are spoiled by cheap fossil fuels. What is the true cost off all that foreign oil?


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Nice ride. not going to get into the argument going on here...but I can appreciate the utility of the 2 seat hatch layout for bikes after having a CRX for 5 years (which was also pretty damn good on gas for its time)


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

Killroy said:


> 1. The problem with diesels is not really the NOx, but the Particulate Matter. CARB http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/diesel/diesel-health.htm"Diesel engines emit a complex mixture of air pollutants, composed of gaseous and solid material. The visible emissions in diesel exhaust are known as or PM. In 1998, California identified diesel exhaust particulate matter (PM) as a toxic air contaminant based on its potential to cause cancer, premature death, and other health problems. Diesel engines also contribute to California's fine particulate matter (PM2.5) air quality problems. Those most vulnerable are children whose lungs are still developing and the elderly who may have other serious health problems. Based on year 2000 emissions in California, diesel PM contributes each year to 2000 premature deaths and thousands of hospital admissions, asthma attacks and other respiratory symptoms, and lost workdays. Overall, diesel engine emissions are responsible for the majority of California's known cancer risk from outdoor air pollutants. In addition, diesel soot causes visibility reduction and is a potent global warmer. The document describing Diesel Exhaust as a Toxic Air Contaminant is listed on this page."
> 
> 2. "it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, so we should really look at how a vehicle does on fuel efficiency in terms of "oil equivalents." Thus, we need to adjust the mileage claims for diesel vehicles downward by about 20% when comparing them to gasoline-powered vehicles." http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm
> 
> ...


I take everything CARB (and the associated smaller regional AQMDs) says with a grain of salt. They keep trying to weasel their way into more and more areas. These are the folks who put small bakeries out of business by requiring the installation of 'scrubbers' on all commercial bakery ovens. Somebody at one of those agencies found out that the great 'bread baking' smell is actually a very, very small amount of VOCs. The percentage of total VOCs bakeries produced was ridiculously low, but that didn't stop them regulating. As the Dead Kennedy's said in California Uber Alles- 'It's the Suede, Denim Secret Police.' It's liberal guilt at its worst. The politicians don't have the guts to create regulations themselves- they'd be out of office in a heartbeat if they did some of the things CARB does, so they create and agency, give it dictatorial powers, then say, "It's not us, it's CARB or BAAQMD."

Last week the BAAQMD (which regulates only in the San Francisco Bay Area) said it wants to begin imposing fines for CO2 production. CO2 isn't a regional problem. If it's a problem at all, it's global, yet BAAQMD wants to begin taxing and fining CO2 producers locally, which means it will drive producers to China, or India, or somewhere else where they'll laugh at us as they take our money.

And getting off my soapbox for a minute, and back to my original thought that CARB might have gotten it wrong about diesel taking more energy to produce than gasoline, I thought diesel (and most other liquid fuels- from kerosene [jet fuel] at the lightest, to bunker crude at the heaviest), was a byproduct of gasoline production. You heat crude, it breaks predictably, but not controllably, into the various liquid fuels, and they tap it off as it settles out. Since there isn't as much demand for the heavier grades, they can then 'crack' it, or re-refine it (again, with heat), and repeat the process, but the goal is always to produce the product they have the greatest demand for- gasoline. As diesel is a heavier product, it doesn't take as much heat to produce, which means you don't need to burn as much oil to produce it. Here's a flow diagram at Wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_refinery#Flow_diagram_of_typical_refinery

As for which fuel is best? I'd guess electricity. Current battery technology allows for 200 mile ranges, and as most families have at least 2 cars, switching 1 to battery power makes sense. The chances of needing 2 cars with greater than 200 mile range on any particular day is awfully low. You still have fixed source pollution to deal with, but that's easier to manage, or even eliminate with alternative generation.


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## den9 (May 25, 2006)

Killroy said:


> 4. The Prius is cheaper at $21-23k, when the '08 Jetta TDI is $25K


the diesel should hold its value longer, and take off another thousand if u want a manual gearbox,

seriously come on, whos really gonna enjoy driving a prius over a tdi?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

den9 said:


> doesnt making and disposing the battery cause alot of pollution
> 
> how much do these batteries cost anyway?
> 
> i have a tdi that gets about 38-44 mpg and diesel is 100 year old proven technology, and lasts forever


what model are you driving that you aren't getting close to 50mpg or better?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Killroy said:


> I totally understand all the benefits of the diesel, but I have some major problems with then that we have gone over already:
> 
> 1. Though brand new diesels are tier II, bin 5, Diesel is a dirty fuel. Anything older than 2009 pollutes like gangbusters. This matters to me because I am a mountain biker and I can see the smog collect in the bay every time I climb up the local hills.
> 
> ...


I think someone has an agenda. I don't care what anyone else buys or drives, I care about what I buy and drive. I have an open mind. For me, my driving and my spending habits, a TDI is the best solution for my transportation needs. I get way over 50mpg in my TDI. What irritates the hell out of me is the smug idiots driving hybrids at 80mph thinking they are doing the environment good. It's a load of crap, they are consuming way more energy driving that fast wasting fuel pushing air out of the way. It's hypocritical to say you want to do something good for the environment as you blast down the HOV lane with your clean air access decal being the only person in the car. All you are doing is making a statement about how dumb treehuggers, harmonic balancers, hippys and green people really are.


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## den9 (May 25, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> what model are you driving that you aren't getting close to 50mpg or better?


im driving a 1.9 litre pump duse version, 2004 jetta, 5 speed

i could get 50 if i drove like an old woman, but i drive hard and fast, the best i done was 42, i usually get 38


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)




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## kcurrin (Feb 25, 2008)

Congratulations on your new car. It looks really sharp, I like the color.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

carbnjunkie said:


> I have a Honda Civic Hybrid and my CA car comes with the 10 year/150k mile warranty.
> 
> I avg about 44.5-46.3 - close to the new revised EPA 2008 ratings. (all cars are down by 10% or so)


I would buy a Civic Hybrid late this afternoon if they just offered it in the 5 door body.


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