# XTR shadow RD



## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

hurray XTR shadow rear derailleur SUCKS! :madmax: 

I got one thinking it would have the same quality as the previous XTR rear derailleur’s and it is a bit lighter BUT the xtr shadow is a real crap! 

It has play out of the box! It doesn’t shift well despite all the efforts to adjust the gears, swapping chains, I even sanded down the stopping tab that makes the RD have a BIG angle and make the top pulley closer to the cassette but the problem continues! wtf is this? My previous XTR (970) that I had on the bike was shifting perfectly even after I crashed, landed on it and bent the RD hanger, it does not have any play and it's not bent!

This doesn’t seem like a top of the line shimano creation!

I will check the cable outers tomorrow but if it doesn’t get better the XTR shadow is out to the trash!

Anyone using the xtr shadow?


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

when u say doesnt shift well, is it not going up, down, ghost shifting ? this might be a start to solving the issue.... from my exp., shimano stuff just works :-( the only difference between xt/xtr is a bit of wt loss often at expense of durability, cost of course.

if its ghost shifting, its likely the cable that just need replacing to start with...and also check the hanger to ensure its spot on.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

it has bad shifting performance. the shifting is slow going up or going down. when shifting up to lighter gears the chain starts on a grinding till it goes to place, the same thing happens when going down to heavier gears. If I adjust the cable to make the high gears enter more easily then it’s harder to shift to low gears and vice-versa.
I know my bikes and gears and this is not normal. something is not right and by now the only think not right is the derailleur.
tomorrow its the last chance for it.


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## Sonny (Feb 25, 2004)

sergio_pt said:


> I even sanded down the stopping tab that makes the RD have a BIG angle and make the top pulley closer to the cassette


I did the same things on my shadow too, half of the stopping tad was cut off....
It shift little bit better than before but the top pulley still too far from cassette.


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## Margaritaman (Aug 25, 2008)

Both my rides have XTR Shadow medium cages and they work flawlessly right out of the box. Heck, the one on my AM bike worked great even when the hanger was bent. Both have XTR cassettes. AM has a SRAM 991 and the WW has an X10sl.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Mine has no play and works perfectly but I did have to remove some material to get the upper pully closer to the cassette. I use an 11-28T.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*same here...*

Me too i swapped derailleurs on my winterbike coming from a really old XTR RD-M950 and didn't like the performance of the shadow out of the box. It worked but not as slick as the really old part before.

So after just about 2 months of use it got replaced by a tuned Dura Ace which does a better job at 40g less

What i really disliked is that you always have to grip the chain when taking off the wheels or when trying to put the wheel back in where on older XTRs you didn't get dirty hands. But with shadow you need to touch the dirty chain just like on SRAM derailleurs...not what i like-really:nono:

By the way: XTR 950 was 207g - shadow is 181g....that's only 26g lighter in 10 years - wow.

Needless to say my XTR shadow is for sale


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Regular Shimano derailleurs swing forward and bounce against the chainstay on a lot of frames. I can't stand that so I use Sram on all my 9 speed bikes (there's no ESP 8 speed shifter). I was stoked when Shimano basically copied Sram and made the Shadow cuz now my 8 speed bike doesn't have a clattering derailleur. The low profile is nice too when slipping between rocks.
The biggest thing I noticed when switching from an older XTR to the Shadow is that they used to make short, med, and long cages. Now they only make med and long. I had to add a link to my chain.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> Regular Shimano derailleurs swing forward and bounce against the chainstay on a lot of frames. I can't stand that so I use Sram on all my 9 speed bikes (there's no ESP 8 speed shifter). I was stoked when Shimano basically copied Sram and made the Shadow cuz now my 8 speed bike doesn't have a clattering derailleur. The low profile is nice too when slipping between rocks.
> The biggest thing I noticed when switching from an older XTR to the Shadow is that they used to make short, med, and long cages. Now they only make med and long. I had to add a link to my chain.


sounds like you had a too long chain!?

if rocks etc are a problem short caged DA is the problem saver anyway!!


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

whats the max toothcount on shortcage DA ?


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Weird... Had the previously xtr, and now the shadow... No problems at al.


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## gmats (Apr 15, 2005)

If you throw it out, can you throw it in my direction? PM me..........I'll take it off your hands.


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

One thing I have noticed on the Shadow series is that the chain is wraped less on the cassette due to the shadow design. This could lead to bad shifting or jumping gears under power if you adjustment is not spot on or you have modifications or out of stock to your drivetrain.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Sonny said:


> I did the same things on my shadow too, half of the stopping tad was cut off....
> It shift little bit better than before but the top pulley still too far from cassette.


I shaved the tab completely; the stopping is done now on the b-screw.

I've checked the cables and cable outers the shifting is a little bit better but I'm still skeptical! :skep: On the lighter gear the der. is too much on the inside...

Tomorrow I'll swap to the previous XTR to do the final comparison, and probably wont take it off for anything else.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

mine works perfectly


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

jmartpr said:


> One thing I have noticed on the Shadow series is that the chain is wraped less on the cassette due to the shadow design. This could lead to bad shifting or jumping gears under power if you adjustment is not spot on or you have modifications or out of stock to your drivetrain.


thats why I shaved the stopping tab near on the der. hanger has Sonny did too. The top pulley is closer to the cassete and the shifting gets a litle better, but its not 100%.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Instead of shaving material from the tab on the hanger that the B screw hits try removing the big torx bolt and taking the pivot above the cable housing stop apart. Remove material from the stop here.

Nino, I don't get what you're saying. The derailleur hitting the chainstays isn't caused by a long chain and isn't solved by a short one. It's because the standard Shimano deailleurs can pivot forward at the B pivot allowing the c knuckle to hit the chainstays on some frames. Also, the increased clearence of the Shadow over the standard derailleurs is created by the different B knuckle and parallelogram. They stick out to the side less.
Again, my only quibble is that they don't come in a truely short cage.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

I do run a regular XTR, but the "shadow" XT, and both give me zero troubles. I wonder if Shadow XTR is less stiff.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Curmy said:


> I do run a regular XTR,the "shadow" XT, and both give me zero troubles. I wonder if Shadow XTR is less stiff.


Don't get me wrong-i didn't have any problems but i think the old XTR worked slicker. But i really don't like the wheel-removal/installation with the shadow. On top of that XTR just get uglier and uglier. I really think those japanese designers should spend some time in italy to learn what good design is.


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## furball (Jan 19, 2004)

I went from couple year old 952 shifters & derailleur to 970 equiv's (triggers w/ shadow rear) & think the older was crisper & took less effort. Never noticed the bouncing around thing. New stuff works fine but older was a milestone.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The Shadows definitely take more shifter effort than standard XTR, but they actually say that somewhere in the literature, the spring is higher in tension to reduce ghost shifting from derailleur bounce in FS use. I tried the Shadow on my ETSX and found I didn't like the feel at the shift lever so I switched back to the standard XTR RD.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

the xtr 972 is way better than the 971.

The 971 bounces around too much (seem like weak spring) and doesn't shift crisp. But the 972 one is perfect I find.


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## kcreager (Nov 13, 2007)

That is kind of awkward that you have had such issues, I threw my shadow on and the next day was riding South mountains National trail on 4 in travel bike. It shifted flawless from the start. As for the play mine had the same as my normal 970 XTR. Maybe you got a pretend XTR rear derailler . Who knows, I think they are pretty sweet.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

rockyuphill said:


> The Shadows definitely take more shifter effort than standard XTR, but they actually say that somewhere in the literature, the spring is higher in tension to reduce ghost shifting from derailleur bounce in FS use. I tried the Shadow on my ETSX and found I didn't like the feel at the shift lever so I switched back to the standard XTR RD.


my words-thanks


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## IAmtnbikr (May 17, 2008)

After removing and grinding off the stop area of the derailleur hanger and properly adjusting things my Shadow works perfectly. If you don't deal with the upper wheel sitting so far from the cassette it will shift like crap.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The derailleur hanger position was an issue on several brands of bikes as there is quite a variation in where manufacturers place it. It was either Ellsworth or Turner bikes that had the B screw stop in a position that wouldn't allow the derailleur's top pulley get closer than about 3/4" from the big cog. When the derailleur first came out there were quite a few posts in the Shimano and Drivetrain threads about these issues.

There were also quite a few problems with the cage tension spring popping out of the hole on the carbon cage on the XTR that didn't happen on the XT.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Its an unacceptable thing from shimano this component having so many issues. 

Done some more testing today and it can probably be the return spring being to strong that makes the shifting harder when shifting up and me not being used to it.. BUT still on the first gear - the lightest- the derailleur is too much placed to the inside so I had to adjust the limiting screw a bit. all the gears are almost ok but when shifting from 2nd to 1st gear it just takes a small effort on the trigger for the 1st gear to enter, if I press the trigger fully till I hear the click the RD is about 2-3 mm misaligned with the first cog, and the cable is noticeable in much more tension. I can adjust the limiting screw a little more but that will put even more stress in the cable. 

ok who wants to buy this der?


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Double check that the cable is sitting in the right spot on the clamp


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

I jsut put an M972 on my '08 Epic so we'll see how it performs............(I kept my M971 just in case its no good).......


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

The cable was in the right spot and the old XTR is back in its place which has a much smooter and precise action  

No more shimano shadows for me thanks. :nono: 


here is a picture from top of the der. showing the shaved stopper tab.


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## Frank_Zuccarini (Feb 29, 2008)

My shadow also shifted like crap, but following suggestions I found here, I removed material from two different areas on the Shadow so that the upper pulley sits about 10mm from the smallest cog (not the recommended 5-6mm, I really couldn't get it that close), and it shifts great now. Just like the year 2000 XTR derailleur that I removed.

Now that it works properly, I really like the Shadow. It's lighter, it really does tuck in tightly under the cassette, and I think that it looks great.

Thanks for all the help guys....................Frank



IAmtnbikr said:


> After removing and grinding off the stop area of the derailleur hanger and properly adjusting things my Shadow works perfectly. If you don't deal with the upper wheel sitting so far from the cassette it will shift like crap.


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## 743power (Sep 25, 2007)

I have set up a lot of bikes with the xtr and xt shadow and I do agree they can be finicky. I never had a problem with the pulley being too far from the cogs or poor shifting. Once they are setup, they work great and paired with the newer 770 or 970 shifters, they have a feel not far from sram x9/x0, which may be what is making you shimano loyalists turned off from the new stuff. For me, it's a big improvement, but i will keep my sram stuff.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

i have no issuses , sergio .... on my RD 972


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

alright diferent opinions. I didnt like the harder feel to shift gears. 
Probably the spring could be changed? Anyone know is there is a softer custom titanium spring or something?

What I know is the shadow is less stable than previous XTR due to the narrow links and weak "double dropout" thats where the play comes from.


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

sergio_pt said:


> alright diferent opinions. I didnt like the harder feel to shift gears.
> Probably the spring could be changed? Anyone know is there is a softer custom titanium spring or something?


Do Shadows not offer two different spring positions within the main spring barrel (two places to insert one end of the spring) to change spring tension? Older xtr derailleurs came from the factory with the spring set in the "looser"/"softer" position, I think.

Edit: I see no mention of this with the Shadow and its single spring.


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## GiantMartin (Sep 12, 2007)

I've had mine for almost a year now with no problems, shifts are instant and crisp. I upgraded from a an XT RD and am impressed.


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## Feideaux (Jan 14, 2004)

*I like my XT shadow...*

Have had it just over a year - no problems after a lot of abuse.

I did notice the cage is off centre a little bit - probably the rd hanger


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## Frank_Zuccarini (Feb 29, 2008)

*Photos of Modification*

Okay, in an effort to pay back a small part of the help I've gotten from this forum, I'm attaching three photos to show what I did to get my XTR Shadow medium cage to work well. Please excuse my poor camera and photoshoping skills.

The first photo shows where on the hanger I removed material. The removal of this hanger requires a No. 40 Torex wrench, and a bunch of torque, as it is loctited in place.










The next photo shows the hanger, off the derailleur, after I've filed and ground away the aluminum in the appropriate places.

https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n281/Frank_Zuccarini/IMG_0589.jpg

And the final photo shows how tightly the derailleur now tucks up toward the cassette after reassembly. I was able to get the upper pulley within about 10-12mm of the cogs, even though the instructions say that it should be within 5-6mm. Still, much better than the original 25mm distance.

https://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n281/Frank_Zuccarini/IMG_0590.jpg

I was able to remove the 'B Adjustment' screw, since any use of it only moves the upper pulley further from the cogs, and I am not even now really as close as it should be. But the derailleur works very well now.

Frank


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## onespeedfreak (Sep 30, 2006)

those are good tips. i did notice in your pics that you are using a road cassette... Shadow RD's are designed for use with mtb cassettes. this could be why you were having a problem getting the top pulley close enough to the cogs.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah, I bet it would be okay with a 34 tooth cassette or maybe even a 32T but on my 28 tooth XT cassette this mod had to be done. It is now as close as it should be.


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## Frank_Zuccarini (Feb 29, 2008)

Good point about the road cassette, but I also run an XT 12x32t on another wheel (same bike and derailleur), and the top pulley was still too far away. And, with either road or mtb cassette, the 12t, 14t, etc. cogs are the same, and the top pulley never got any closer to this smaller cogs.

Thanks.............Frank

ps. Any idea why my first photo is embedded in the posting, but the other two are only links? I inserted them all the same way (with the photo icon in Mtbr.com forums) from Photobucket.com.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

thers your photos.

You (we) all that have done this tab shaving, probably could do it on the dropout instead of 'damaging' the derailleur... just a second thought. oh well next time..


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## Megaclocker (Sep 28, 2005)

Great idea ! That's the reason my Shadow never worked right with anything smaller then a 11-32.


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## Frank_Zuccarini (Feb 29, 2008)

I considered shaving the dropout instead, but:

- The frame is worth more than the derailleur

- Every other derailleur in the universe works just fine with my frame dropout as it is


Thanks for getting the photos to show. May be useful for anyone who hasn't done this mod yet....................Frank


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

Did a shake down ride of my Epic thats jsut been upgraded with XTR shadow and a Pro-lite alloy cassette. Shifts are perfect every time, feels a little notchier then with my M971 (I kind of liked the reverse acting!) but its fast and precise. 
My other 'upgrade' was to switch to a 140mm rear disc - hmmm, not so impressed with that!!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah, I ran a 140mm on the rear for a while and it just felt too weak. I was having to brake harder with the front to compensate. It also didn't handle heat well and just got weaker if you trail braked into a couple turns in a row. Smaller rotors in the rear are just for motos and cars (more weight transfer to the front under braking).


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

I'll give it some time to see if it grows on me....but back to the shadow.
Sounds like the people who have had issues have some ghetto gypsy frame design or something - cant account for how it'd work flawlessly on some bikes and not on others otherwise


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## 743power (Sep 25, 2007)

There is really no standard amongst frame makers when it comes to derailleur mounting. There is a dimension not many people know about called the "D" size, which is the length from the derailleur side of the hanger, to the face of the small cog. If this length doesn't fall within the derailleur manufacturer's specs, than shifting might not be so perfect. There is also the distance from the center of the axle, to center of derailleur mount, distance from b-limit screw stop - to center of derailleur hanger mount. If any of these are out of spec, than things might not work right.

With that said, I have setup the xt and xtr shadows on various different brand bikes and they all end up working well. The only one I couldn't get perfect was a newer specialized.


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## racerick (Mar 15, 2009)

I had a problem. The return spring tang popped out leading to a dnf on a ride. I investigated and it seemed that the mounting tang on the spring was too short. Shimano replaced it no problem. I was advised that after the first couple of production runs, a couple of things were changed. Besides that one problem, my shifts flawlessly. As for tire removal, I found that having the front deraileur in the middle ring position, makes r&r of the tire, simple as it used to be with older model deraileurs.


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## sundowner (Mar 13, 2007)

I have mine for over a year and it still working flawless.


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## cjeckert (Apr 18, 2008)

I've noticed from setting up several shadows that they are very sensitive to having a really aligned drop out.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

I've had my XTR shadow for months and it works perfectly

BUT it has a BIG BIG weak point, the first top link, where the bolt to the frame is (the one some shaved)
any crash against the derailleur or any stone or stick into that zone, and that part will break
even the carbon plates will stay alive, but not that part

I have my own experience with that, and I know more people that broke that part

The worst thing is Shimano don't sell spares links

so I suggest not to buy shadow derrailleurs until shimano solves that design error


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## onespeedfreak (Sep 30, 2006)

actually, Shimano does sell replacement 'hangers' for the shadow rd, your LBS might just be to lazy to call Shimano and order it direct.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Not here in Spain
The Shimano dealer does not provide spares for RD
(they think is much busines to sell a new RD...)

do you know any international web shop that can provide that link?

thanks


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

After a few weeks use I occasionally get a sliht chain slip when i suddenly stomp on the cranks - investigating as to whether this is down to the alloy cassette I'm using or whether its the shadow.........


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

confirmed, there are not replacement parts for the most fragile top link
only for the carbon plates and pulleys

and Shimano dealer has confirmed they have lot of these RD broken in that top link...


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I've broken that same link on my XTR shadow as well, I have a friend who has done this also. We have gone thru two LBS who claim to have contacted Shimano USA and been told it is not available separately. I hope they do make this available, having a $140 derailleur break after a couple of weeks is terrible.

Does anyone know if that same part can be taken off the SLX or XT Shadow derailleur and used on the XTR, I'm thinking of buying a used one just for that purpose, I've seen the SLX sell for less than $30 on Ebay, probably cheaper than the replacement part would be from Shimano anyway.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

here you can see the spare parts of the XTR-M972 shadow RD:
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...RD/EV-RD-M972-2758A_v1_m56577569830640334.pdf

as you can see, there is no spare uper link

I hope Shimano rectificate that
otherway lot of people (including me) will go to sram


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## Robin v Berkel (Aug 19, 2008)

i us XTR to and tune it so weight 166gr and work super with 12-27 and this is my sec time i us XTR shadow


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

I found this discussion whilst searching for XTR 972 problems and confirms my fears ; 

the B tension is way out.

I have wound the screw right out, and cannot get the pulleys to approach the cassette any more than 25mm (needs to be 5mm). 

I see others have had this problem too, and have machined some alloy off the derailleur, but I am reluctant to do this.

I have a Scott Spark LTD.

Is there any other way around this problem? Why is it OK on some bikes? Why is Shimano still selling this stuff if it doesn't work?!!


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I've had one medium and one long cage XTR shadow, the little arm that holds the derailleur hanger bolt bent and cracked right away on one of them for no apparent reason, at least I didn't remember hitting anything or wrecking. Another rider in my area had the same issue. I also use an XT long cage shadow and all three shift just fine, I agree with the earlier poster that they can be "finicky". 

As far as the distance from the cassette, I'm sure different manufacturers hangers vary a bit, some are likely fine to begin with, others may been grinding down.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Interesting that now, about 2 years later people , start complaining...Back then i got one for my winterbike as well, installed it and didn't find any improvement in shifting performance over an old RD-M950. I also reported back then and people would say i'm crazy when i replaced it right away with the older XTR i still had around....i just sold the shadow the other week.It spent 2 years in a box collecting dust.

Anyway - my Dura Ace shifts not only better but is lighter too (front and rear!). I personally think the latest XTR is not worth the investement. Front derailleurs are MUCH too heavy, rear derailleurs bulky and not as precise as they used to be and the shifters are still too heavy as well. It's time for a major XTR re-design !!


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

Agree with Nino. I use XTR M952 front derailleurs, they weigh 111-113 grams and cost less, and I've always been able to find new old stock somewhere for cheap.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

So what would be a good replacement for the XTR Shadow?

Dura Ace medium cage?

XT (a bit heavier?)

SRAM is out right? (I'm using XTR thumb pod shifters)

Thanks for any help!

P.S. How do Shimao get away with selling Shadow mechs that cannot be asdjusted properly?!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

bernithebiker said:


> I see others have had this problem too, and have machined some alloy off the derailleur, but I am reluctant to do this.


Why? It makes your derailleur work better. All the arguements for other derailleurs ignore the low profile aspect of the shadow. I love mine and use it with an 11-28 8spd cassette.


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## xc2006 (Sep 30, 2008)

Does anyone know if the carbon cage on the shadow deraileurs contributes to the problem of poor shifting ?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Pretty sure it has no effect.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

hey, it's no good having a 'low profile' derailleur if it doesn't shift properly!!

I've tried everything and the thing will not move up to the cassette...!!!

Can I use a DA 10 speed 7900 derailleur? I guess it has to be medium cage, not short. 

Have a 12-27 DA cassette and normal 22-34-44 up front.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> hey, it's no good having a 'low profile' derailleur if it doesn't shift properly!!
> 
> I've tried everything and the thing will not move up to the cassette...!!!
> 
> ...


I use the short-caged DA 7900 on my bikes with 27/40 up front and 11-32 in the back! All you need to do to be able to use a DA on a 32 cassette is to replace the top 11t pulley wheel with a 10t.That gives just enough room to allow the derailleur to take the 32 cog. Shifts great, durability is great, weighs 165g in stock trim and with just some pulley wheels and aluminium bolts you can get it to 143g. No issues ever. I use short caged DAs for about 10 years already.

Shown below my DA7900 also paired to my 10s 11-32 cassette. Works great.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

bernithebiker said:


> 've tried everything and the thing will not move up to the cassette...!!!


No you haven't. The only thing you need to "try" is the mod posted above. The one you are "reluctant" to do.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Lelandjt said:


> No you haven't. The only thing you need to "try" is the mod posted above. The one you are "reluctant" to do.


Tried everything 'normal'. If I machine the mech, I can't sell it on, or send it back.

Also, I shouldn't have to do that, having paid top dollar for XTR. It sucks.

So, I will go the Dura Ace route. I'm thinking that with the DA medium cage, I should be fine with a 12-27, just is there enough spring to take up the slack on a 22 chainring up front?

Nino? Do I have to go double chainring up front?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> Tried everything 'normal'. If I machine the mech, I can't sell it on, or send it back.
> 
> Also, I shouldn't have to do that, having paid top dollar for XTR. It sucks.
> 
> ...


Me too i used to run 12-27 with 20/32/42 for many years with DA derailleurs.

What you need to do is to run the chain the shortest possible. Have it shortened so that you just can run 44-12 with the derailleur all streched out but it should be doable just in case. 
Done this you will have a slightly loose chain when running 22/12 but that's a gear you usually don't run anyway and as soon as you have the slightest push on the pedals that slack is gone. It never caused any problem for me in many years.

If you don't want to spend the big dollars on the 7900 you could also get the 7800 which is just slightly heavier at around 180g.This one weighs 165g with light pulleys and some aluminium bolts (shown below). By the way- i have a 7800 for sale if you would be interested.
I think the 7900 has slightly longer cage though .I will have to check that again back home but i think i remember the cages were longer on the new DA which would help take more slack out. I'll check that.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

good news, thanks to Mattias, the upper link that shimano don't sell as spare, and that breaks so easy is finally done.

soon I will try if it works correctly


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

STS said:


> and that breaks so easy is finally done.


HAHA-and i thought the whole idea behind the shadow was to keep it out of the way for less damage....as we can see it went the other way round!

Not only can it cause sifting problems but it also breaks. Nice!! I have yet to see a broken XTR of the previous versions....My uber-old RD-M950s from around 1997 are still working smooth and without any problems.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> *HAHA-and i thought the whole idea behind the shadow was to keep it out of the way for less damage....as we can see it went the other way round!*
> 
> Not only can it cause sifting problems but it also breaks. Nice!! I have yet to see a broken XTR of the previous versions....My uber-old RD-M950s from around 1997 are still working smooth and without any problems.


Your post makes no sense. Shadow design DOES keep it out of the way. It just happens to break easier the few times it does hit something. You are trying hard as always to bash products you don't use.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> Your post makes no sense. Shadow design DOES keep it out of the way. It just happens to break easier the few times it does hit something. You are trying hard as always to bash products you don't use.


wrong- i used it myself but wasn't happy and as it seems i'm not the only one.

They changed the design to keep it out of harm yet now they break??? Well done....:madman:


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## Scalpel15 (Nov 15, 2006)

Mine broke that same way, sent it back and got hooked up with a new one, but in the mean time I had put a normal one back on and it will stay for a while.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> wrong- i used it myself but wasn't happy and as it seems i'm not the only one.
> 
> They changed the design to keep it out of harm yet now they break??? Well done....:madman:


You were the one making an incorrect statement, don't tell me I'm wrong. 

At least your post makes more sense than the previous one. And for the record, I have never had a problem with a shadow derailleur, nor any of the people I ride with. How many have really broken? Yours did not, right?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> You were the one making an incorrect statement, don't tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> At least your post makes more sense than the previous one. And for the record, I have never had a problem with a shadow derailleur, nor any of the people I ride with. How many have really broken? Yours did not, right?


Incorrect statement? which one?

Just show me ONE thread about XTR derailleur problems from the past...

They tried to correct a problem that was non-existened and the result went in the opposite direction: shifting problems and breakage.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

nino said:


> Me too i used to run 12-27 with 20/32/42 for many years with DA derailleurs.
> 
> What you need to do is to run the chain the shortest possible. Have it shortened so that you just can run 44-12 with the derailleur all streched out but it should be doable just in case.
> Done this you will have a slightly loose chain when running 22/12 but that's a gear you usually don't run anyway and as soon as you have the slightest push on the pedals that slack is gone. It never caused any problem for me in many years.
> ...


You mean 'so you can just run 44-27', right?


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> Incorrect statement? which one?
> 
> Just show me ONE thread about XTR derailleur problems from the past...
> 
> They tried to correct a problem that was non-existened and the result went in the opposite direction: shifting problems and breakage.


Just because you can't setup your derailleur does not mean it has design problems. 

My XTR shadow works better than any of my 952 or 950 derailleurs, and I have never had any XTR derailleur break. You talk as if many of them are breaking, yet I have yet to see one and I ride with lots of people that have them.

The only issue I have ever seen with a shadow derailleur was a Saint that had developped a bit of play, but it still worked fine.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> You mean 'so you can just run 44-27', right?


ups-correct!


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> Incorrect statement? which one?





nino said:


> HAHA-and i thought *the whole idea behind the shadow was to keep it out of the way for less damage*....as we can see it went the other way round!


Is Shadow more in the way, thus prone to more damage?


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

I'll try my new Shadow 972, but if it needs a "mod", i'll just sell it and buy a 970. If I "mod" it, it will only fetch about $50 on ebay. Then Ebay takes their 11%.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> Is Shadow more in the way, thus prone to more damage?


They tried to make it less prone to get caught by bushes etc....less likely to get torn or bent.But it seems its design is weaker than before with parts breaking...yes-more prone to breaking. Is now clear what i wrote above?


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

nino said:


> HAHA-and i thought the whole idea behind the shadow was to keep it out of the way for less damage....as we can see it went the other way round!
> 
> Not only can it cause sifting problems but it also breaks. Nice!! I have yet to see a broken XTR of the previous versions....My uber-old RD-M950s from around 1997 are still working smooth and without any problems.


as a user of xtr RD since 1998, I can explain you:
old ones hit more against rocks,...and resulted damaged like any other RD
the 972 has never hit any rock in the 18 months I used it (the low profile works), BUT when a bruch jumped between chain and RD, it suffered more than the old one would do

for me the shadow changes gears better, weight less and cable is guided more direct
the bad side is it's more fragile against hangs, and that shimano do not have spare of that weak link


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

egebhardt said:


> I'll try my new Shadow 972, but if it needs a "mod", i'll just sell it and buy a 970. If I "mod" it, it will only fetch about $50 on ebay. Then Ebay takes their 11%.


You only have to "mod" it if you run a cassette smaller than 32T. I see this not as a design flaw of the derailleur but a result of huge 9 & 10 spd cassettes being shoved down our throats.


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## cale399 (Oct 18, 2008)

nino said:


> I use the short-caged DA 7900 on my bikes with 27/40 up front and 11-32 in the back! All you need to do to be able to use a DA on a 32 cassette is to replace the top 11t pulley wheel with a 10t.That gives just enough room to allow the derailleur to take the 32 cog. Shifts great, durability is great, weighs 165g in stock trim and with just some pulley wheels and aluminium bolts you can get it to 143g. No issues ever. I use short caged DAs for about 10 years already.
> 
> Shown below my DA7900 also paired to my 10s 11-32 cassette. Works great.


what shifter are yuo using in this set-up? can you use the regular XTR? that looks cool....


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

Is there anyway I can make a dura ace work with a 11-34? I want to pair it with nobu shifters.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

cale399 said:


> what shifter are yuo using in this set-up? can you use the regular XTR? that looks cool....


You can run whatever shimano-compatible shifter you like. I personally use 153g Plasma grip-shifters. But every 9s Shimano shifter will work as well.

SRAM has a different ratio for SRAM derailleurs so those won't work with a Shimano derailleur.But they also offer Grip-Shifters for Shimano like the current Attack (or my older Plasma)


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## GiantMartin (Sep 12, 2007)

Mine is perfect. When I first got it I was running RaceFace Evolve XC, with an HG53 chain, and a PG970 cassette, LX Front Der. Never a problem aside from the odd tune-up. I now run it with a full XTR drivetrain with zero problems. Performance is top shelf.


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## dhpete93 (May 22, 2008)

So a customer replaced his rear mech today as he'd broken the lower cage, in which case it turned out cheaper for him to have an old XTR rear mech at old price than to buy the plates.

So anyway, he sent it to the bin and I intercepted this in hopes of a little project. I plan on pulling it apart and replacing the rivets with bolts, which will be threaded at each end and loctited in, I mostly just plan on this being a means of removing play and having a little 'tuning' project. If I kill it there's no pain in it, as it was free and I already have another. If it works great then that's a huge plus, which will hopefully leave me with a lighter and better quality derailleur.

Has anyone pulled one of these apart before? It seems that so long as the spring is removed first there should be no tension making this too hard a job. The only problem I see is all the time I'll need to spend thinking out/modifying it so that I can preload the system without locking it together or having un-necessary play left in the system. May have to find a stiffer spring and add some self lubricating washers, however I hope not have to, in order to keep Shimano's smooth feeling.

http://www.forum.light-bikes.de/showpost.php?p=136237&postcount=1

If only...


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

*carbonschmiede.de XTR Shadow carbon derailleur hanger*

have this carbon hanger to upgrade my Shadow RD, had no problems with the Shadow RD - so far...

...except perhaps i might have been happier with the GS (medium cage) rather than the SGS (long cage) reccomended by Shimano for 44/32/22 ...the SGS looms very close to the ground.

hanger: http://www.carbonschmiede.de/Shadow.htm

bolt: http://www.carbonschmiede.de/Shadowschrauben.htm


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

wow! the same piece Mattias did for me but in carbon, great!


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## Gromit_dog (Dec 2, 2008)

What is the torque on the torx bolt supposed to be?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

culturesponge said:


>


What's the original weigh?


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

Lelandjt said:


> What's the original weigh?


supposedly around 10g (for the hanger only not the alloy bolt)

not had a chance to install it yet so can only go on manufacturers info

"It weighs only 4,2g which 5,4g to the original saves"

http://www.carbonschmiede.de/


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

*tuned XTR M972 Shadow RD + carbon hanger ect*

finally got around to installing the carbon pivot + alloy bolt - not sure if shifting performance is going to improve (probably not) but my Shadow RD is now a svelte 158g

it was pretty easy to swap out, i used 7nm on the alloy bolt plus a small amount of blue locite on re-install

argh! now its too nice to use on my high milage training bike

best


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## Thomas Anderson (Mar 10, 2006)

Damn thats sweet !!!


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## bikemaniack (Feb 6, 2010)

You can put this one bolt made of titanium, weight:3,85g,Price:19Euro. I don't know how much weight the standard bolt,but probably it's "much" heavier.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

For all you "Shadow-junkies" here's a nice one from Germany:
http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showpost.php?p=7052509&postcount=35

all detailed weights here:
http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showpost.php?p=7053405&postcount=39

Although i still can't see why people would invest so much into this derailleur. Only if you run 34 or bigger cassettes you need a long cage.With 32 cassettes you can use a short cage derailleur like the DA 7900 which can easily be tuned to 143g not using too exotic and expensive parts...


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## nikoli8 (Mar 23, 2008)

Is that top part a derailler hanger attachment


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

I forgot to post it here,
As I now use XX cassette and hammerschmidt on front, I Transformed my broken XTR shadow into a semi-short cage. Reinforced it with alu inner plate (from an old GS xtr). Changed the upper link with the reinforced extruded alu one (the OEM is forged, weak )
and changed bolts and pulleys (still waiting for one for the lower)

My idea was to recicle it to a reinforced and short cage one
but I was surprise it weights now 168.5g

I edit the post because some changes in the RD, soon new picture


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

nino said:


> For all you "Shadow-junkies" here's a nice one from Germany:
> http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showpost.php?p=7052509&postcount=35
> 
> all detailed weights here:
> ...


thanks for posting the links, so much more interesting on the European sites compared to mtbr

if you like using XTR M970 rapidfire triggers (which i don't anymore) XTR Shadow RD is a great option. not sure i could trust DA 7900 road rear derailleur to last very long riding in inclement conditions on a weekender in the mountains, but everything breaks eventually though

gave that tuned Shadow to the wife for her RM Vertex rigid SL that has tuned XTR rapidfire - i'm shopping for a used medium XO rd + used left hand XO gripshifter as i'm totally fed up with bazillions of half shifts with SRAM Attack on every training ride mucking up my mojo

..............................

bikemaniack - thanks for posting the bolt, where is it available? ....do you have a link?

...........edit..........

its okay i see them here: http://www.carbonschmiede.de/Shadowschrauben.htm

its 2.6g in natural or gold Ti - carbonschmiede now do both bolts


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## Dover (Jan 4, 2006)

*Housing??*



sergio_pt said:


> The cable was in the right spot and the old XTR is back in its place which has a much smooter and precise action
> 
> No more shimano shadows for me thanks. :nono:
> 
> here is a picture from top of the der. showing the shaved stopper tab.


How can you complain about the shifting with that crappy housing on your bike.
thats probably the problem not the RD


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

nino said:


> Although i still can't see why people would invest so much into this derailleur.


Dura-Ace - for glorified road bikes. XTR Shadow - well protected, well performing derailler for mountain bikes, ridden in the mountains.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Curmy said:


> Dura-Ace - for glorified road bikes. XTR Shadow - well protected, well performing derailler for mountain bikes, ridden in the mountains.


You obviously have never used one. Downhillers seem to be more open minded...

The DA is narrower and shorter so less chances to get caught by bushes etc..
With "old" -design XTR you never see any ripped off derailleurs unlike with Shadow where i have seen more than one with problems.

Anyway - DA is the exact same quality as is XTR, the exact same performance...just lighter. The only downside is that you can't use it with cassettes bigger than 32t and that its short cage has less capacity to keep the chain tensioned. So it isn't ideal if you have a triple crankset where in a crossed gear like 22-11 the chain is still loose as long as you don't have an pressure on the pedal. But in real world biking this isn't a gear you use anyway.

However for 2x9 / 2x10 and guys using cassettes up to 32t DA is a perfect match.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

nino said:


> With 32 cassettes you can use a short cage derailleur like the DA 7900 which can easily be tuned to 143g not using too exotic and expensive parts...


Uh, the dura-ace derailleur is frigging expensive! Are you serious?


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## Scalpel15 (Nov 15, 2006)

nino said:


> The only downside is that you can't use it with cassettes bigger than 32t and that its short cage has less capacity to keep the chain tensioned. \.


The guys at Cannondale seemed to solve this somehow and ran a 7900 di2 on a 36 tooth xx cassette. http://singletrack.competitor.com/2...cannondale_7320?album=20&gallery=121&pid=1539


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

Scalpel15 said:


> The guys at Cannondale seemed to solve this somehow and ran a 7900 di2 on a 36 tooth xx cassette. http://singletrack.competitor.com/2...cannondale_7320?album=20&gallery=121&pid=1539


Sorry to be OT. But is there really no way for a road rd to handle a 34T cog. My dream set up would be a light sram red to go with my grip shifts. I run 1x9 and my legs aren't that good so I need my 34T cog.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Scalpel15 said:


> The guys at Cannondale seemed to solve this somehow and ran a 7900 di2 on a 36 tooth xx cassette. http://singletrack.competitor.com/2...cannondale_7320?album=20&gallery=121&pid=1539


Don't forget that also DAs come in a short caged version and a long cage version (for triple rings). So they must have used the long cage version to fit on a 36t cassette or some other modification. But a regular short caged derailleur definitely won't fit under a 34t or 36t cassette.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> Uh, the dura-ace derailleur is frigging expensive! Are you serious?


Sure it costs but doing the match for all the bits needed in tuning the XTR i don't think it's any more expensive yet it is still lighter:

brandnew - 210$:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Shimano-Dura-Ace...ort_Radsport_Fahrradteile?hash=item562f97e074


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

Does that mean a long cage DA would work on a 34


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

Does that mean that a long cage DA would work with a 34T cog? What's the weight of a long cage DA?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

morrisgarages said:


> Does that mean that a long cage DA would work with a 34T cog? What's the weight of a long cage DA?


I am wrong-there is no long cage derailleur! They do just different front derailleurs but there is just ONE short caged rear deraileur. So it means that by simply installing the B-tension screw-thing the wrong side around they were able to fit it under a 36t cassette....hmm.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

nino said:


> You obviously have never used one. Downhillers seem to be more open minded...


You obviously have absolutely no clue what I have used and what I did not.

Unlike you I was able to properly setup both of them though.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Curmy said:


> You obviously have absolutely no clue what I have used and what I did not.
> 
> Unlike you I was able to properly setup both of them though.


I never said i wasn't able to set up the Shadow, but i didn't like its performance , i didn't like it when i changed wheels that i had to grip the chain...no other benefit and ugly as well...so i changed back to "old" XTR and just last week again back to DA 7800 which i still had laying around.


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

nino said:


> I am wrong-there is no long cage derailleur! They do just different front derailleurs but there is just ONE short caged rear deraileur. So it means that by simply installing the B-tension screw-thing the wrong side around they were able to fit it under a 36t cassette....hmm.


Ok.I hope someone tries to experiment with the b-tension-screw-thing-the-wrong-side-around with a 34T cog and lets us know how it works.:thumbsup:


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

*Ti parts upgrade*

I'm looking to lighten my Shadow derailleur with some ti parts. Mainly, I wonder if anyone knows if there is an after market P-axle bolt (the one I've marked in red). I believe the standard bolt is steel, although I've heard some people say it's aluminum. Does anyone know what material is actually used in the standard bolt?

Also, the cage spring and main spring, can they be changed to ti? Has anyone done it?


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

sergio_pt said:


> hurray XTR shadow rear derailleur SUCKS! :madmax:
> 
> I got one thinking it would have the same quality as the previous XTR rear derailleur's and it is a bit lighter BUT the xtr shadow is a real crap!
> 
> ...


Mine works perfectly... No play. Anyway I never used the 970, I had the 960 with reverse spring and I like this shadow so much more. I can not compare it with the 970 though...


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## 1415chris (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry for hijacking the threat, but still xtr....
An interesting project from polish light-bike, the weight result, well judge yourself.


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## morrisgarages (Jan 25, 2009)

Nice! Any other details on that rd? Or links?


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## facelessfools (Aug 30, 2008)

is that outer linkage plate carbon???


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## 1415chris (Mar 21, 2009)

More pics and details
http://light-bike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17685

Ti spring, the element shown under the spring taken from 950 - aluminium with nylon bolt, adjusting nylon bolts, jopckey wheel nylon bolts, drilled cable alu bolt, carbon outer linkage, replaced steel pins for aluminium ones, the rest alu part slightly grinded and polished.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Crossmaxx said:


> I'm looking to lighten my Shadow derailleur with some ti parts. Mainly, I wonder if anyone knows if there is an after market P-axle bolt (the one I've marked in red). I believe the standard bolt is steel, although I've heard some people say it's aluminum. Does anyone know what material is actually used in the standard bolt?
> 
> Also, the cage spring and main spring, can they be changed to ti? Has anyone done it?


that bolt is not steel, I don't remember if alu or ti when I disasembled it, but I only changed the other two uper bolts


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## Mobu (Oct 11, 2010)

im thinking about 7900 to use with cs7700 on flat races. It's compatible with 9sp chain (is cage wide enough)?


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## ridgeeriksenrider (Oct 9, 2010)

*xtr*

very sloppy compared to the xo in the shifting going through the fields


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## p_shep (Jan 12, 2005)

What other options are out there for Shimano trigger shifter users, with 34-11 cassettes?

Just put another mech through my spokes, so looking for a replacement.


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