# Vuelta Magnesium available again...



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Vuelta Magnesium V's available again...*

i finally managed to get my hands on some more of those Vuelta Magnesium V-Brakes.
i have also a classified ad which i will further modify later with some pictures:
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/cgi-bin...sults_format=long&db_id=79555&query=retrieval

regular weightweenies know this brake already but i will post some more detailed info once again:
the brakes come in a set for front and rear, including brakelevers and all mounting hardware as seen in the picture below.

weight for a set of brakes with standard steel bolts: 270g
just for comparison:
XTR 395g
Avid Ultimate 368g
Avid Titan 322g
Tektro Magnesium 320g
Avid Magnesium 318g
FRM DP-4 292g

i also offer a Tuningkit which brings the weight down to just 230g for the set!
the Tuningkit includes:
4 Al-Cantibolts M6x15
2 Al-Cable fixing bolts M6x10
4 Al-Pad fixing nuts M6
4 Al-Padcarrier bolts
2 Al-Cantilever studs for Rock-Shox/Manitou etc. forks

the standard steel bolts of the Vueltas and standard Rock-Shox Cantistuds weigh 83g. as you can see the Tuningkit with all these parts weighs just 28g. by the way: these same bolts from Shimano or AVID weigh 93g!!!

my own Vueltas weigh 214g. they have modified padcarriers. by using roadpads you can get them as low as 190g the set!


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## NRSJC (Oct 4, 2004)

*Vuelta.*

Very good job Nino ! Congratulations !


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

Are you only selling them with the levers or are sets of just the brakes available?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

TheRedMantra said:


> Are you only selling them with the levers or are sets of just the brakes available?


yes - they come as a set with levers. you could sell those if you don't need them...


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## atbcrash (Jan 23, 2004)

*Brakes*



nino said:


> yes - they come as a set with levers. you could sell those if you don't need them...


Will you also be selling just the brakes?


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## MuppetLegs (Jan 24, 2004)

*Top job Nino!*

What's the euro price for the tuning kit bought alone, so I can upgrade my stock vueltas?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*tuningkit*



MuppetLegs said:


> What's the euro price for the tuning kit bought alone, so I can upgrade my stock vueltas?


40 euro + shipping

by the way - on Shimano and AVID brakes this kit saves 10g more ( 65g savings!!) as the nuts and padcarriers weigh more than those of the Vueltas.see below:


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Hmm... I think I will wait for the new Extralite UltraBrakes..

pricelist

"Hyper accurate 3D cnc construction, responsive Ergal V-Brake, micro adjustable, black / bronze hard anodized, sealed bearings, laser etched graphics, 99gr. (pair)"


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

Jan said:


> Hmm... I think I will wait for the new Extralite UltraBrakes..
> 
> pricelist
> 
> "Hyper accurate 3D cnc construction, responsive Ergal V-Brake, micro adjustable, black / bronze hard anodized, sealed bearings, laser etched graphics, 99gr. (pair)"


They are roughly the same price, but the vueltas come with levers so they are cheaper overall. But then again, after tuning...


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*BIG doubts...*



Jan said:


> "Hyper accurate 3D cnc construction, responsive Ergal V-Brake, micro adjustable, black / bronze hard anodized, sealed bearings, laser etched graphics, 99gr. (pair)"


first of all it says: available february 05. from past experience with Extralite you can almost be sure it's at least 1/2 a year later.

i can't see how Extralite is going to make a brake with sealed bearing at 99g...
maybe that's without pads, or without mounting hardware...who knows?

anyway - i have the Steinbach brake here which comes with roadpads and is just a piece of "nothing". instead of a returnspring it has a tiny elastomer...it weighs 106g per side and that makes me really doubt the Extralite can be that much lighter.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

A pair of Extralite UltraLevers would make these Vuelta's another 100g lighter. At 64g/pair they are amazingly light.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*i use them too...*

i use them with my Vueltas. they perform great with the Vueltas. now you need some of my Tune Plastic housing (18g/m) and the lightest brake gets even better

stopping power of the Vueltas is better due to longer brakearms (109mm) compared to Shimano or Avid (102mm). 
as i said several times already powerwise these brakes outperform any disc when fitted with ceramicpads on ceramic rims and with the Tune housings...


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## Archangel (Jan 15, 2004)

*Nino - check your mail*

An order is waiting...


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

whats your total bike weight these days Nino?

I follow your threads with much interest 

ta

scant


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*7370g...*



scant said:


> whats your total bike weight these days Nino?
> 
> I follow your threads with much interest
> 
> ...


i just updated my bike last week:
http://light-bikes.com/bikegallery/BikeListing.asp?id=125

i don't use the listed aluminium cassette in the rainy weather we have right now so instead of the 114g cassette i use the 12-27 Dura ace which weighs 180g. all the rest are actual weights.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*correct e-mail?*



Archangel said:


> An order is waiting...


did you use the correct e-mail address? i didn't get anything...
it's
[email protected]


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## Archangel (Jan 15, 2004)

*Yeah, I used that one...*



nino said:


> did you use the correct e-mail address? i didn't get anything...
> it's
> [email protected]


...but since you didn't receive it, I sent an another one...


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## DaFireMedic (Jan 13, 2004)

TheRedMantra said:


> Are you only selling them with the levers or are sets of just the brakes available?


I'd suggest getting the levers, even if you don't use them right now. They are tuneable down to 155 g's, (maybe lower, thats what mine are at) and are very firm. Good for a budgetlight bike, that is unless you get a big price break without the levers.


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## DrJ (Nov 4, 2004)

Has anyone ever tried Vuelta Mags with Kooka Racha V-levers?

BecauseI have a set of Kooka's of 92gr here.. And I'm thinking of getting Vuelta Mags


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## DaFireMedic (Jan 13, 2004)

DrJ said:


> Has anyone ever tried Vuelta Mags with Kooka Racha V-levers?
> 
> BecauseI have a set of Kooka's of 92gr here.. And I'm thinking of getting Vuelta Mags


Yup, for about 6 months. The Kookas worked stopped the bike well and worked just fine, but they are a bit spongy. I ended up replacing them for Pauls Love Levers at 40 gram penalty, but the Paul's are rock solid. My Kookas were tuned down to 86 grams.

While I liked the Kookas to a degree, they definitely were the weak link in the brakes, not at all like they would break, just more flex than other levers. The Vueltas are as stiff as my Avids, and with solid levers they feel rock solid.


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## jakeplazma (Oct 15, 2004)

*Nino - check your mail again!*

Another order is waiting...


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2004)

*ummm yeah......*



nino said:


> i use them with my Vueltas. they perform great with the Vueltas. now you need some of my Tune Plastic housing (18g/m) and the lightest brake gets even better
> 
> stopping power of the Vueltas is better due to longer brakearms (109mm) compared to Shimano or Avid (102mm).
> as i said several times already powerwise these brakes outperform any disc when fitted with ceramicpads on ceramic rims and with the Tune housings...


a v-brake as strong as a disc! have you ever even ridden a disc? actually i heard
that next year hondas moto gp bike is going to switch from dual front discs to dual
front v-brakes with ceramic rims because they have more power, but the engineers
stated that they would only do it if they can use tune housing, because that
makes ALL the difference. oh yeah and ceramic brake pads.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> This begs one question... Are you a retailer of sort? Is that why you have such brand loyalty (Scott, Eclipse, Vuelta mags, etc)?? Looks suspicious to me...
> BTW, everyone head over to <www.velonews.com> under Tech, they discuss the Scott vs. Specialized situation. If there is one thing US courts are good for, it is protecting intellectual property, and the Scott has infringed upon it. Without full suspension, don't expect to see to many Scotts (or retailers willing to carry them) here...


no, i have no shop nor do i earn my living with bike parts. if you want to call me a "retailer" is up to you. i'm the only one who has some Vueltas and Tune housings because i did my homework and used all my connections to get them.
if Scott is sold in the US is of no interest for me. i don't care about all the FS-craze anyway.

if you want a light bike that works you have to take a closer look at Scott. otherwise this is the wrong forum for you. as a weightweenie i did my homework years ago and Scott frames are by far the lightest to be had (HT).

have a nice weekend


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

jonny_mac said:


> a v-brake as strong as a disc! have you ever even ridden a disc? actually i heard
> that next year hondas moto gp bike is going to switch from dual front discs to dual
> front v-brakes with ceramic rims because they have more power, but the engineers
> stated that they would only do it if they can use tune housing, because that
> makes ALL the difference. oh yeah and ceramic brake pads.


even if i kjnow you don't care what german magazine test show i will once again show what interesting results some testing of different discbrakes and v-brakes brought:

as you can see they tested several discs wet and dry (red =dry power , blue= wet power)

just to have a comparison they also tested a standard set of Avid SD brakes. they used the standard pads, regular aluminium rims and regular shimano housing. isn't it interesting to see the Avids power numbers? at 341 Newton it's more powerful than all tested XC-discs. hmm. wet power for sure suffers but to get an idea on what ceramic rims and pads do to a V-brake i also have another test where they show the different frictions of different pads on different rims.
on the left you have the combination: rim/pad...next is the friction number of that combination.

as you can see ceramic rims with Kool-Stop ceramic pads get 0.64 reading.
farther down you have "unbehandelt"/Kool Stop at 0.47. that's the combo the tested Avids above had (Avids come with Koolstop pads on regular rims).
so you have an improvement of 36% in dry power when going from regular rims to ceramic rims and pads. now it's too bad i don't have the test where they show that ceramic rims have double the power in the wet compared to dry.
also note the rather low reading for the shimano pads: 0.41. so coming from such a brake the ceramic setup improves the power by 56%...

if you still can follow that means:
by running ceramic rims and ceramic pads you get WAY more power than the already powerful Avid brake that got tested above. wet power for sure isn't better than most discs but with ceramic it's not too bad either.

cables are also important in getting the best out of any cable actuated brake. another german magazine test did a comparison test on many different cables and the results are pretty interesting too:
by running either Dura-ace or Jagwire "universal" cables you get 100% better brakepower!
correct - that's twice the power than with regular shimano cables. the results after the simulated usage made that clear. see the yellow graph on the shimano cables on the bottom right? it goes up at the end of the test and shows the wasted handforce. the Dura ace always remains the same thus resulting in much better power. they didn't test the Tune housing but believe me, you won't- i know- but anyway , the Tune housing is slicker and better performing than the Dura-ace and Jagwire. so having these cables , ceramic rims and ceramic pads and brakes with longer leverage (Vuelta) you get stoppingpower that xc-discs can only dream about.

no, Honda isn't going back to V's but Tazio Nuvolaris 6-cylinder 125cc GP-bike from ca. 1960 also had V's...

oh - yes i tried several discs and not too many impressed me. best so far was a Formula with oversize 200mm rotor. of all XC-discs not a single one had the stoppingpower my v-brakes have.


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

*Where can I find ceramic rims?*

They don't seem to be very common.

Edited: OK, I found Bontrager Mustang & Valiant, and Mavic 517 & 717 are available with ceramic coatings. Some are very expensive though. Quite a bit heavier than Stan's Olympic Disc rims though. Each wheel works out to be ~+82 grams minimum per wheel since a rimstrip is required and having the extra weight at the outside of the wheel is almost the worst place it could be.

Anyway, are there any other ceramic rims? How do Stan's coated rims compare?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> BTW, everyone head over to <www.velonews.com> under Tech, they discuss the Scott vs. Specialized situation. If there is one thing US courts are good for, it is protecting intellectual property, and the Scott has infringed upon it. Without full suspension, don't expect to see to many Scotts (or retailers willing to carry them) here...


Can you post a direct link to the discussion?? I cannot find it..and I'm in desperate need of a bit of a laugh.


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

YES!!!

Need a link please..........


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

B R H said:


> They don't seem to be very common.
> 
> Edited: OK, I found Bontrager Mustang & Valiant, and Mavic 517 & 717 are available with ceramic coatings. Some are very expensive though. Quite a bit heavier than Stan's Olympic Disc rims though. Each wheel works out to be ~+82 grams minimum per wheel since a rimstrip is required and having the extra weight at the outside of the wheel is almost the worst place it could be.
> 
> Anyway, are there any other ceramic rims? How do Stan's coated rims compare?


DT also offers their rims in a ceramic version. i use some Matrix Swami ceramic rims (425g).
weights are for sure more when compared with Stans rims. Almost any rim is heavier than Stans.

coated rims have usually weaker breakpower. you can see the friction numbers for a coated rim in my post above. it's the lowest of the readings: 0.32


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

So ceramic rims are not coated? I've never used any but always thought it was just a coating.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*coating..*



B R H said:


> So ceramic rims are not coated? I've never used any but always thought it was just a coating.


sure , ceramic is a kind of coating.
i thought you refer to hard anodized coating like Stans rims.


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## jakeplazma (Oct 15, 2004)

*Calling Nino... Come in Nino!*



jakeplazma said:


> Another order is waiting...


Did you receive my email?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> They don't need to have the "power" that a v-brake exhibits in that test (although I would like to see a simulation of their test), since the piston is being hydraulically compressed, and it has but a short distance to go to reach the braking track (rotor on a disc). A v-brake uses leveraged arms to produce its' power, so which would you expect to exhibit more newtons of force on a stationary object? There are many other factors that come into play in this equation (excluding inclement conditions, where nobody is arguing that the disc is not superior). I wish I could fly to Switzerland and ride your v-brake setup, so I could laugh. If it has more power than my Magura Martas, I'd switch to Scott bikes on the spot (and everybody knows how I loathe those).


don't shout that out too loud or you'll find yourself riding with the light "S" and V's 

force was measured on the wheels, not at the pads.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> A disc brake does not apply force to the wheel, it applies force to the rotor. A disc brake pad also has more surface contact than a v-pad. You can argue all day that your v-brakes are strong, but they are not stronger than a disc brake (6" rotors included).
> I would ride a Scott if they gave me the frame at Pro Deal (I am not a big fan of Race Face and some of the other parts spec on that bike), and since I don't know of a dealer in Michigan carrying the bikes, I doubt that will happen.


sorry guy, but the test clearly shows you are wrong. none of the 6" rotor brakes had the power of the REGULAR Avid setup.

you say all discs have more power then just because they are discs and because they have more surface contact? ....hey man, you live on the moon.

and Race-Face?? i see no race face on either top bike:

Genius Limited
http://scottusa.com/product.php?UID=5881

Scale Limited (20 lbs out of the crate)
http://scottusa.com/product.php?UID=5891


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

nino said:


> sorry guy, but the test clearly shows you are wrong. none of the 6" rotor brakes had the power of the REGULAR Avid setup.
> 
> you say all discs have more power then just because they are discs and because they have more surface contact? ....hey man, you live on the moon.
> 
> ...


Um, on many of the prototype and race bike pics they had raceface parts. Maybe not on the production bikes, but its understandable to make that mistake.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

TheRedMantra said:


> Um, on many of the prototype and race bike pics they had raceface parts. Maybe not on the production bikes, but its understandable to make that mistake.


correct - but it just shows how little he knows about Scotts actual products.
you'll have a hard time in finding a similar off-the shelf bike that is ready to race right out of the crate.
the HT weighs 20 lbs, the FS 23 lbs with discs. no cheating with 300g tires either. just pure race machines.


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

nino said:


> sorry guy, but the test clearly shows you are wrong. none of the 6" rotor brakes had the power of the REGULAR Avid setup.
> 
> you say all discs have more power then just because they are discs and because they have more surface contact? ....hey man, you live on the moon.
> 
> ...


I doubt many production bikes besides a scott comes with 3x eggs out of the box. I doubt many cost as much either.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Scott has managed to find a spendy following especially in German speaking countries, which allowes them to make ultra-light stock bikes, that are actually being sold. I could offer even lighter stock bikes with my personal Cloxxki Made In Space brand, but no-one would want them, even if they were better. That part is marketing, and they're masters at it. They don't offer a lighter bike for the buck, but convince you to pay more for a 12kg, 11kg or even 9kg bike.

Where did this thread go from Spanish V-brakes to not-so-USA-at-all Scott USA bikes?


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> go to www.velonews.com, it was posted yesterday under tech right at the top.


Tech Report: New technology, cops and courts
*By Andrew Juskaitis

VeloNews technical editor*
This report filed November 4, 2004
While a record number of you turned out to vote on Tuesday, it's only the VeloNews editorial staff that for better or for worse has a say in our upcoming 2004 Awards issue. While the crew is hard at work arguing over who might be named the Masters Road Racer of the Year, I've been giving a lot of thought to the award that matters most to me: the Technical Development of the Year.

A number of candidates have crossed my mind, but unfortunately the one idea that sticks out most prominently is not a component, frame or wheelset. Instead, the most notable impact has been made by a technology developed to help shed new light on those that use performance-enhancing methods and phramaceuticals. We'll see how the voting goes with the rest of the staff, but personally I find it difficult to come up with a single technology that has had a more significant impact on international racing than the latest developments in drug testing.

It's an unfortunate sign of the times that testing for fraud surpasses an engineering triumph in our sport. Sadly, that's the way it is these days. Sure, plenty of cool equipment has been introduced this year - road tubeless, hyper-light carbon parts and frames to name but a few - but I find it hard to vote for any of them in favor of the science that has been introduced to weed out the cheaters in the peloton.

If you can't join ˜em, beat ˜em....
One of the most significant developments in mountain biking has been the behind-the-scenes legal wranglings between Specialized and back-to-the-U.S. Scott USA.










The Genius may need a genius lawyer to ride on U.S. trails

When invited to the Scott global press launch held earlier this summer in Switzerland, the press was able to ride Scott's Genius suspension line. It was only the final day of the launch that the Americans in our group were pulled aside and informed that we could write about the Genius bikes, but would have to inform our readers that the bikes would not be available for purchase in the U.S.-at least in the near future.

At the October Interbike expo, we showed up hoping to see some resolution between Specialized, which holds U.S. patents to Four-Bar linkage suspension, and Scott, who's Genius line apparently infringes on Four-Bar patents. No such luck. There was only one Genius bike at the show, and it was not available for the American public to see.

For the European market, Scott has had great success with its Genius line. That's because Specialized's rights to Four-Bar apply only to the U.S. market.

At Interbike, director of Scott USA, Scott Montgomery explained to VeloNews that Scott was "working toward some type of resolution on the Specialized patents." More recently, Scott USA's Marketing Director Adrian Montgomery revealed that the case is still a long way off from being settled.

"We're not going to offer Genius suspension in the U.S. market for 2005, but 2006 might be another matter," Adrian Montgomery noted.

So why should you even begin to care? Because if Scott USA is able to circumvent the U.S. patent on Four-Bar linkage suspension, every bicycle manufacturer that sells in the U.S. will be able to utilize the same outstanding suspension design. Smaller companies would be able to produce suspension with performance advantages right on-par with the major manufacturers.

Yes, Specialized would suffer a serious loss of a valuable patent, a point confirmed by Specialized founder and president Mike Sinyard.

"It's frustrating that we find ourselves protecting intellectual property that was well-established nearly fifteen years ago," he said. "It's also silly when a company claims that a design both is and is not a particular family of technology based on geography. This kind of petty squabbling only hurts the industry, hurts our retailers, and ultimately degrades the entire bicycle industry in the eyes of the consumer. We would all be much better served if companies put their energies into developing unique and differentiated products that compete on their relative merits, instead of trying to reduce everything we make to a commodity."

What Sinyard is referring to is that fact that when Scott first showed its complete line of mountain and road bikes at the April 2004 Sea Otter Classic, Scott Montgomery claimed that the Genius line utilized a "Virtual Pivot Point" design.

He corrected himself days later and conceded that the Genius relied on the Four-Bar type suspension (a point its European literature clearly indicates), but, in the eyes of Specialized, the damage was done. Specialized concluded that Scott USA was simply using doublespeak to get around U.S. patents.

Time will tell if Scott USA is able to beat Specialized's U.S. patents, but you can be assured Sinyard and his legal team will fight to the end to prevent this from happening. In the meantime, Scott USA will import its line of non Four-Bar bikes and Specialized will continue to license its Four-Bar design to only a select number of U.S. manufacturers who it feels compliment the design, and don't seriously infringes on Specialized's sales number here in the U.S.

The rest is up to the courts.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

Cloxxki said:


> Scott has managed to find a spendy following especially in German speaking countries, which allowes them to make ultra-light stock bikes, that are actually being sold. I could offer even lighter stock bikes with my personal Cloxxki Made In Space brand, but no-one would want them, even if they were better. That part is marketing, and they're masters at it. They don't offer a lighter bike for the buck, but convince you to pay more for a 12kg, 11kg or even 9kg bike.
> 
> Where did this thread go from Spanish V-brakes to not-so-USA-at-all Scott USA bikes?


vuelta brakes are not spanish. the brand name is called vuelta usa. but i think it´s not from usa either.

bye!!


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## Adrian (Oct 7, 2004)

nino said:


> no, Honda isn't going back to V's but Tazio Nuvolaris 6-cylinder 125cc GP-bike from ca. 1960 also had V's...
> QUOTE]
> 
> I know this is well out of the scope of this discussion, so please reply with a PM if you like, but Nuvolari died in 1953, and yes there was a Honda 6 cylinder GP bike in 1964, but it had drum brakes as far as I can tell.
> ...


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

B R H said:


> They don't seem to be very common.
> 
> Edited: OK, I found Bontrager Mustang & Valiant, and Mavic 517 & 717 are available with ceramic coatings. Some are very expensive though. Quite a bit heavier than Stan's Olympic Disc rims though. Each wheel works out to be ~+82 grams minimum per wheel since a rimstrip is required and having the extra weight at the outside of the wheel is almost the worst place it could be.
> 
> Anyway, are there any other ceramic rims? How do Stan's coated rims compare?


Rigida also makes coated rims.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*correct...*



Adrian said:


> nino said:
> 
> 
> > no, Honda isn't going back to V's but Tazio Nuvolaris 6-cylinder 125cc GP-bike from ca. 1960 also had V's...
> ...


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

*Have you tried these shops in MI?*


Dexter Bike & SportLLC 3173 Baker Rd
Dexter, MI 48130
Get MapT: 734-426-5900
Email
Bikes
Sunrise Sports3206 Silverlake Rd
Fenton, MI 48430
Get MapT: 810-629-3760
Bikes

Scott USA is supposed to be available thru US dealers 12-01-2004. I've only ridden the road frame and it is AWESOME!

By the way, your arguments against v-brakes are pretty ridiculous. Nino offered reasonable proof that v-brakes can be more powerful than disc. I have no problem at all believing this. A rim acts just like a 24" rotor! What proof have you offered that your disc brakes using puny 200 mm or less rotors are more powerful?

I prefer disc brakes and use Formula B4 with 160 mm and 140 mm. These are pretty weak disc brakes yet I've always had more than enough braking power for any situation I've been in. Neither brake system is perfect and V's can definitely be as powerful and lighter. I choose discs since I ride in very mixed conditions and only have 1 bike which I must ride and race. I am considering light V's for my race-mostly bike. For most of my riding discs just give me more piece of mind. To say V's can't be as powerful as discs is just plain idiotic.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> Since a Scott production bike is not availalble in the States, who knows what it will have (no borchures, no retailers, hell they can't even sell their full suspension bike here). The pre-pro picture I saw had Race Face. FSA (the picture you posted) is not much better. ISIS has some serious design flaws, have not seen (in person) their new outboard setups yet.
> I could care less about Scott's actual products, made in Tawain is not at the top of my list of must have products. Scott=marketing, hence the hiring of a former Cannondale Marketing guy to attempt to get going in the US.
> Just because I don't close the bathroom door with a Scott catalog in my back pocket (like you), proves absolutely nothing. When the bike hits US soil, then we can talk. Until then, it is a never ran!


well - you just disqualified yourself


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

No drum brakes I've ever seen use a cam... just a simple hydraulic piston pushing directly on the brake shoes. Both disc and drum brakes adequately stopped a car so I really don't know which is more powerful. My guess is that they were both designed to provide similar (adequate) braking power for the least overall cost. Mere pennies matter more than you may imagine in the automotive world - trust me, I've worked as an engineer in that environment! Anyway, this doesn't have much to do with a bicycle.

Tighter tolerances have nothing to do with braking power. The clearance between a brake pad and a rim or rotor has nothing to do with the stopping power it can generate. It's all about clamping force, surface area, and leverage. Hydraulic disc brakes could be built to provide far greater clamping force than any rim brake but probably not in a way that would be useful. Such really strong brakes would probably lack useful control (modulation). The pad contact area is not much different between the two. The leverage placed on the wheel is MUCH different. Give your wheel a spin and then try to stop it by grabbing the tire and then the hub. This leverage is what makes up for the weaker clamping force generated by a V-brake. Actually I don't know for certain that the clamping force is really that much weaker, but I suspect it is.

It doesn't take an engineering degree to have great intuitive feel for these matters - it just takes experience. Experience is also what separates exceptional engineers from average ones.

There are many reasons to like disc brakes. I've already said that so far I prefer them. However, my preference is not based on power alone. Both types of brakes are currently capable of generating more stopping power than I need. I am more interested in lighter weight and lower maintenance brakes.

PS. A shop near me has had Scott road bikes on their showroom floor for at least 6 months and another local dealer will have them as soon as they are available. I am only interested in their non-suspension frames.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Mr. Scary said:


> No, I haven't tried those. I live in Rochester, the shops listed are over an hours drive away. Are you claiming that they will have a Scale on the floor?
> What convincing argument, one test in a German mag? I'm sure I could get automobile drum brakes (used very little now, prominent in the 50's through the 70's) to exhibit greater newtons of force over an automobile disc brake since they use a cammed arm to slam into the drum surface. Big deal, there is a reason most vehicles use discs, motorcycles use discs, etc. By Nino's logic a cable actuated disc brake should offer more power than a hydraulically actuated one, since he feels the Tune housing makes all of the difference.
> A rotor is machined to tighter tolreances than a rim. A disc brake has more surface contact (pad to rotor) than a v-brake. Nino proved his own argument. When he put that XT crank on his winter ride and was amazed by the difference in stiffness to his own lightweight, noodle setup-that proved it. The XT was stiffer because of greater surface contact (Octalink bb mated to the cranks). Nino is not an engineer. He isknowledgeable about lightweight parts. he often makes claims that he cannot back up, and when pressed for technical data-he resorts to a German bike test which I cannot read. I have seen Jonny Mac tear him up on numerous technical arguments. I suspect Jonny Mac is an engineer, we know Nino is not.
> BTW, Dave Turner tore Nino, Boj, and David E a new one on the Turner post that generated so much feedback. And he builds bikes for a living, does Nino?


you disqualify yourself more and more - big laugh


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

on cars, drum brakes overheat when you're driving hard ...obviously this becomes more prevalent as the weight of the vehicle increases ..and seeing as almost all our new vehicles today are becoming tubs of lard it pretty much necessitates discs


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

I never had a problem with stopping power of my old cars with drum brakes. It was pretty flat and the roads were all straight where I grew up. The biggest problem was RUST! They salted the roads heavily in the winter. Drum brakes quickly became a rusted mess to work on. Discs were a huge improvement in that respect (easier maintenance).

I agree totally on the giant cars these days. It's just ridiculous here in the US. Giant SUVs and huge trucks all over the place. It's funny how a Jeep Grand Cherokee looks average size these days and I used to think they looked huge! In a few years these things will all be piled up in salvage yards and won't be worth a dime. It's always worth a laugh to watch people try to park those silly things. Especially the little tiny people that can hardly see over the steering wheel!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ahem...*



eurorider said:


> on cars, drum brakes overheat when you're driving hard ...obviously this becomes more prevalent as the weight of the vehicle increases ..and seeing as almost all our new vehicles today are becoming tubs of lard it pretty much necessitates discs


there's many cars over here using drum brakes, especially on the rear.
even formula one cars used drums decades ago...

my '85 Suzuki RM 250 motocrosser used drum brakes front and rear.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2004)

*......*

the arm on the drum brake someone was referring to is the arm
on the drum of a motorcycle brake, and it is there to provide the leverage to operate
the drum brake. what is the point of stating f1 cars used drums and an
85 rm used them too? the point is neither use them anymore because they
are not as stong among other problems with them. a good disc brake can provide
more raw power than a v, not that all discs are good. this is as stupid as the turner
fs bike arguement, because from what i have seen, if nino doesn't think so then
it is no good, but if he likes it then it is the best bar none!


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

*I know..*



nino said:


> there's many cars over here using drum brakes, especially on the rear.
> even formula one cars used drums decades ago...
> 
> my '85 Suzuki RM 250 motocrosser used drum brakes front and rear.


we have lower end cars here too that still have drum on the rear ...drum can work fine under normal driving conditions especially on the rear which has less responsibilty than the front..

but even with full vented discs that come on your typical passenger car today ...give me a few subsequent corners requiring hard braking and I will have the brakes go "mushy" no problem (or brake fade if you like) ...that's not very confidence inspiring is it?

drums are even worse!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> we have lower end cars here too that still have drum on the rear ...drum can work fine under normal driving conditions especially on the rear which has less responsibilty than the front..
> 
> but even with full vented discs that come on your typical passenger car today ...give me a few subsequent corners requiring hard braking and I will have the brakes go "mushy" no problem (or brake fade if you like) ...that's not very confidence inspiring is it?
> 
> drums are even worse!


correct.
but we still have more problems with discs overheating and loosing power than we have with overheated rimbrakes on bikes.
the german magazines are full with test on discbrakes and almost all discs overheat or leak or get bent rotors when stressed...with rimbrakes you get exploded inner tubes because rims heat up but the brakes are always working unlike discs.

discs are definitely capable of having more power ( for sure!!) but they need bigger rotors and better heat dissipation than what we get on our typical, tiny CX-discs. make them bigger and they rock...but that's adding weight which we don't want on our xc-bikes.

after all- we are talking about 16-25 lbs bikes here, not 200 lbs motorcycles or 4500 lbs cars that reach 200 miles an hour.


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

v-brakes are definitely the #1 choice for xc bikes ...i wasn't disputing that


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

The pad is in constant contact with the rim when pressure is applied, so minor deviations really don't matter. A really warped rim will make it more difficult to apply braking force evenly, but it won't change the absolute braking power. That is determined by the other factors I already mentioned.

I didn't say the surface area was equal, just that it wasn't that different. The difference (maybe 2:1 in favor of discs) is not enough to make up for the difference in leverage (probably closer to 10:1). Factor in the pressure (i.e., friction) difference and they are probably very close to even in most cases. I'm not counting giant rotors and dual piston calipers used for downhill rigs. Again, I'm not saying that some discs aren't more powerful or that they couldn't be made more powerful. I'm arguing that I have seen no evidence to disprove the testing results Nino posted. My experience with rim brakes is limited (never tried ceramic rims or even good V's, just crappy old cantilevers!), but it was rare they didn't have enough power. I have no trouble believing that the right combination of friction materials can make a huge difference and put V's on par with even the best discs!

I good friend has a Six13 and is happy with it. I haven't spent any real time on one but I have ridden the Scott CR1 enough (3 long demo rides) to know I prefer it over anything else I tried. It is so quick to accelerate. Nothing else I tried (quite a few bikes) even compared. It is also stiff but still comfortable where it counts. The only carbon bike I rode that had less lateral BB flex was a Storck, but it was too stiff otherwise and lacked the instant acceleration the Scott had. One bike that really surprised me was the new Specialized Roubaix. I thought it would ride like a tank, but it was pretty nice actually -- just awful looking though! After each full day of riding demos, I would go back and ride the Scott and it always left a big grin on my face.

I agree that all carbon stuff is way overpriced, but so are most better quality bike items these days.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

I ordered a pair of Magnesium Vuelta's chez Nino yesterday evening. My oldest XTR's (1999) are packing in (lots of play in the hinges , so lots of noise ) so I figured, lets kill 2 birds with one stone.
I also ordered Nino's tuning kit.


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