# GPS and SPOT



## tahoescott3 (Sep 17, 2012)

Hello all. I need some help from all you tech junkies out there. I've always been a bit of a luddite when it comes to navigation. Pretty good with maps, compasses and orienteering without GPS. I do have Ride with GPS on my phone, but I'm not interested in using my phone as my source for navigation. I've decided that with a big adventure this summer (CT) that I should step into the 2000's and get a GPS. There are so many options that I'm getting a little overwhelmed. I've been looking at Garmin products, specifically the Edge line. I'm really mainly looking for a GPS with good navigation as opposed to all the training features. I want this thing to tell me where to go and what the trail looks like ahead of me. i.e. elevation profiles and mileage. What is the minimalist option where I can get those features? I also need to get a tracking device (SPOT, etc...) so my wife and mom don't lose their minds worrying. I see some of the upper end Garmins have "live tracking". Would I be better off getting a separate SPOT device or try to find a GPS that tracks as well? I've seen some pretty inexpensive SPOT's on ebay, but they are older generations (Gen 2). Am I asking for trouble getting one that old? I know this is a lot of questions, but I need to cut down some of the options to really dig in. As always, any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Will you always have cell service?


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## trulede (Sep 12, 2018)

Just take whatever Garmin fits your budget.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

The SPOT or Garmin Inreach units will track you anywhere via satellite and that info will be available on the web. Conventional GPS units paired with a cell phone can also transmit tracking info but are limited by cell coverage. If you are traveling through remote areas the sat devices are much more effective. They do, however, require a paying a periodic fee for service.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

tahoescott3 said:


> I'm really mainly looking for a GPS with good navigation as opposed to all the training features. I want this thing to tell me where to go and what the trail looks like ahead of me. i.e. elevation profiles and mileage.





wayold said:


> The SPOT or Garmin Inreach units will track you anywhere via satellite and that info will be available on the web.


I think the OP is looking for more navigation than a communication device. Maybe some confusion on exactly what he wants? Both?


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

I use a garmin 520 and garmin inreach mini for communication. The 520 doesn't do a great job with navigation but the newer ones are suppose to be better. Garmin live track only works thru your cell phone when you have service.

The inreach works on satellites, but it doesn't work well under tree cover while moving. I have had it try to send my location for up to an hour while riding. If I stop for while under tree covers, it will final get a signal out but it can take several minutes. If you are riding in more open areas, then its not a problem.

You can follow routes using the garmin earthmate app and the inreach.


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## tahoescott3 (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks everybody. I tend to confuse when trying to clarify sometimes. I mainly am looking for a good GPS to help with navigation. Was always thinking that a stand alone SPOT would handle tracking, but was unsure if a gen 2 SPOT would be too antiquated.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

The Gen 2 Spot should be fine if you just want people to be able to track you and you only need to send a couple preset messages. But you can't receive messages or send custom message or messages to anyone other than preset recipients. What I preferred about the garmin mini was that I would could receive messages, send custom messages and send to messages to people not loaded into the garmin (but only if I have my phone connected to the inreach, but cell service not needed)


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

tahoescott3 said:


> Thanks everybody. I tend to confuse when trying to clarify sometimes. I mainly am looking for a good GPS to help with navigation. Was always thinking that a stand alone SPOT would handle tracking, but was unsure if a gen 2 SPOT would be too antiquated.


A SPOT can track, but there are some major caveats.

It will only do so if you pay for the correct subscription service. The tracks are displayed online, not saved onto the device. They're also very low frequency compared to handhelds and fitness devices, so the tracks aren't really all that interesting except at really big scales for big trips. The SPOT (and InReach) are communication devices. So unless you buy a handheld that just happens to have the communication functions built into it, don't expect anything out of the device other than the communication functions.

For navigation, it's important to appropriately set your expectations, also.



tahoescott3 said:


> I've been looking at Garmin products, specifically the Edge line. I'm really mainly looking for a GPS with good navigation as opposed to all the training features. *I want this thing to tell me where to go and what the trail looks like ahead of me. i.e. elevation profiles and mileage.* What is the *minimalist option* where I can get those features?


The way standalone GPS devices work, the information you're seeking may not look exactly like you want it to. Especially on the device. You're ONLY going to be able to get this information if you load a preprogrammed route onto it, so it knows where you actually want to go. Also, with the amount of processing required to build an elevation profile, you're not going to get a profile of what you have not yet ridden on the device itself. The profile you're going to see will be what you have already ridden. You'll be able to obtain this information using this planned route on your computer, however. Most route-building software these days will give you a profile when you build the route.

Also, turn notifications are a sticky issue. You aren't going to just get them. You're going to need to make sure they get built into your planned route file. There is software that does this (I use the RideWithGPS route builder website that does this), but not all software does this. Also, it's possible to build the route even with their software such that you miss turn notifications, or they get placed in places that are confusing when you're on the trail. So you need to practice with it to figure out how to get it all placed so you get the notifications when you want.

What do you mean when you say minimalist? When it comes to navigation, the word minimalist suggests cross-purposes, tbh. Good navigation functions usually come on larger models. The ability to load maps that inform your navigation decisions. Bigger screens so you can see more area around your current position at a map scale that shows you some details. etrex models are generally the preferred choice for bikepacking for a few reason. One being robust navigation functions at a lower price than most Edge models. Another being user-replaceable batteries are a bit easier to manage for longer trips than rechargeables.

It's important to note that the core functionality of etrex models differs from the Edges. With an Edge or other fitness model, you turn it on, then press "start" to begin recording. Handhelds don't work that way. Once you turn it on, it's running. There's a setting to enable track recording, and if that's selected, a handheld will record a track as long as it's on. I have an Oregon 450 which has a "stopwatch" screen which sortof replicates some of that Edge device start/stop functionality by software. I'm not sure which or how many of the etrex models offer something similar. Maybe some of the touchscreens, but being a different series of devices, I'm not entirely certain as they likely have different operating systems.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

I've used two generations of SPOT's and am now on an Inreach mini. I motor dirt ride in the western U.S. alone and go to places where no help will happen by for who knows how long...and usually without cell service. Here's the problem I had with SPOT, even the last one. They apparently try to bounce between cell and satellite connection which isn't a problem if it works perfectly. Often if I'd camp or travel in an area where spotty cell service existed, the SPOT would try cell communication first but would often not make the transition to sat when the cell was weak. The SPOT would show the connection to have been completed when it wasn't. I wouldn't know that until I was back in cell service and see a lack of hits from SPOT and messages from a worried and angry wife.

That has never happened with my Inreach. In fact I don't think they even rely on any cell connection, but if they do they apparently figured out how not to drop the message. For navigation AND non-cell communication and safety, I'd get one of the two Inreach models that have full function GPS and sat communication...and never look back. I like maps and my old trusty, battery operated, Oregon 450T to do all I need for navigation. The Inreach mini takes care of everything else and links with my cell phone for expanded operation.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Iditarod racer here.
Spot works most of the time, but it’s only half a watt for transmission. In- reach is 1.4 watts. That is more better. In reach mini relies on a phone for most of the texting function. You can preprogram a few msgs, but it’s incredibly frustrating difficult to text outside of that without a phone. The mini really relies on phone pairing and it’s not great at nav either. Better as a nav backup. I would not recommend the mini unless you don’t need it for nav and are ok with the phone pairing part.

Depending on where I am, I carry a mini or my 406mhz plb. 406mhz plbs have a full 5 watts, communicate directly to the noaa sarsat, rather than 3rd party providers, and include a terminal homing beacon. No paid subscription. No text function though.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Depending on where I am, I carry a mini or my 406mhz plb. 406mhz plbs have a full 5 watts, communicate directly to the noaa sarsat, rather than 3rd party providers, and include a terminal homing beacon. No paid subscription. No text function though.


Does the PLB do the periodic pinging and tracking of the Inreach or just provide the emergency SOS function?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

wayold said:


> Does the PLB do the periodic pinging and tracking of the Inreach or just provide the emergency SOS function?


Nope, it's rescue only. It's a beacon, not a tracker. But if I really need to get found (or run across someone that does), it's the best chance of that happening.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

And for nav, we, and I mean like 85% of the racers and endurance people in the winter, like the eTrex. It’s a painfully slow processor and poor interface, but it makes up for that with crazy long battery life and the ability to drop any gpx file in there for navigation with base maps. No asinine touch screen. Then you follow the purple line.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Jayem said:


> Depending on where I am, I carry a mini or my 406mhz plb.


Personal Locator Beacon? My assumption that this is the equivalency to an ELT operating on the same frequency?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cleared2land said:


> Personal Locator Beacon? My assumption that this is the equivalency to an ELT operating on the same frequency?


It's exactly the same as a 406ELT.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Harold said:


> What do you mean when you say minimalist? When it comes to navigation, the word minimalist suggests cross-purposes, tbh. Good navigation functions usually come on larger models. The ability to load maps that inform your navigation decisions. Bigger screens so you can see more area around your current position at a map scale that shows you some details. etrex models are generally the preferred choice for bikepacking for a few reason. One being robust navigation functions at a lower price than most Edge models. Another being user-replaceable batteries are a bit easier to manage for longer trips than rechargeables.


I took minimalist to mean having features for navigation, but not needing features for fitness like heart rate monitor and all that. I recall seeing ads for a GPS that will show you elevation profile coming up on your loaded route, can't recall if that was an Edge or something else like Wahoo. I use my Garmin Oregon 600 for navigation, but it's basically just a topo base map with whatever tracks I've loaded into it overlaid on that base map. I like it because I can zoom in and scroll around to see detailed topo info. It has a really nice touchscreen. I do a lot of exploring where I don't have a track pre-loaded and it's great for that. If you just want to follow a line there are plenty of models that do that well. The Oregon doesn't really "follow" a track, some other units do and will beep or warn you when you're off track. With the Oregon its up to you to follow the line visually. I don't mind it, but at times you miss a turn and go off course without realizing it. One other thing I like is the Oregon runs off AA's. I use rechargeables mostly, and for longer backpacking trips I use Energizer lithiums. One less thing to worry about keeping charged.

I have an Inreach as well which pre-dates garmin's acquisition of DeLorme. It lives in my pack for emergency use but I usually don't have it turned on for tracking. I only use that for bikepacking races where you sign up for tracking on Trackleaders.com. Haven't really bothered with cell phone linking much for sending messages, but I have friends who use that often to communicate with home. It can be much more useful than the few pre-programmed messages you otherwise get. The Inreach has been very reliable for tracking. I hear of lots of issues with Spot devices, particularly the older ones. The battery life on the Inreach has been impressive and it charges quickly. I think I charged it twice on the Arizona 750.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

My buddy that did the Iditarod via snow-machine heavily recommended the Garmin Montana, said it was excellent for nav and of course it is also an in-reach with tracking.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

I've been hoping Garmin would incorporate InReach satellite technology into its GPS units. If they've done that with the Montana that may be my next unit once current one stops working. Then all they need to do is team up with Apple or Android to incorporate into cell phones, and I'd be down to one device.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

I'm going to go a bit against the grain here and suggest you use your mobile phone with Avenza and purchase the appropriate topo maps.

It's been a few years since I've used Garmins so maybe they have gotten tremendously better. But for me, quite often just having a good professionally done topo with the an indication of where I am is what I find most useful for on trail navigation.

If the Garmin topos have gotten a _lot_ better in the past 5 years or so, they will probably be the better bet since they likely have better battery life.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

evdog said:


> I've been hoping Garmin would incorporate InReach satellite technology into its GPS units. If they've done that with the Montana that may be my next unit once current one stops working. Then all they need to do is team up with Apple or Android to incorporate into cell phones, and I'd be down to one device.


I think/thought this had been available for awhile in at least two of their other units besides the mini. When the Montana came out with all the features packed in, it is probably the ultimate, but it also has an ultimate price. It is impressive.

Jayem is right on the interface link of the mini and your cell phone being more fiddly than an all-in-one unit, but it is still an impressive unit for such a tiny size...and it appears bomb proof. I also like my GPS to be separate with map reading being primary and the GPS just being a confirmation backup. I also want that GPS to be battery operated because you can always install some fresh batteries even out in the hinterlands. Frankly I wish the Inreach used field replaceable batteries, but they don't...but that's just me. Being a dirt motor guy, one can get in trouble due to the extreme distances one can cover in short order. The peace of mind of an Inreach helps tremendously...as long as you don't get stupid and think it's a shield against danger.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

evdog said:


> I've been hoping Garmin would incorporate InReach satellite technology into its GPS units. If they've done that with the Montana that may be my next unit once current one stops working. Then all they need to do is team up with Apple or Android to incorporate into cell phones, and I'd be down to one device.


Every In-reach unit has GPS nav capability. On the mini it kind of sucks, but all the other ones are much better for that purpose. Pretty sure most of them also interface with the garmin app on the phone.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TNC said:


> I think/thought this had been available for awhile in at least two of their other units besides the mini. When the Montana came out with all the features packed in, it is probably the ultimate, but it also has an ultimate price. It is impressive.
> 
> Jayem is right on the interface link of the mini and your cell phone being more fiddly than an all-in-one unit, but it is still an impressive unit for such a tiny size...and it appears bomb proof. I also like my GPS to be separate with map reading being primary and the GPS just being a confirmation backup. I also want that GPS to be battery operated because you can always install some fresh batteries even out in the hinterlands. Frankly I wish the Inreach used field replaceable batteries, but they don't...but that's just me. Being a dirt motor guy, one can get in trouble due to the extreme distances one can cover in short order. The peace of mind of an Inreach helps tremendously...as long as you don't get stupid and think it's a shield against danger.


When I set the mini to extended tracking, it will literally work for days without a recharge. That's important. Running a GPS in nav mode or on all the time drains a ton of power. That's why we go to the Etrex units for nav, because they also last for days on batteries. But for tracking, the extended function with the mini will last a long time. It'll "wake up" ever so often to upload and then go back to sleep. It can't communicate with the phone in that mode, but it lasts a long time.

The mini is small enough that I can keep it on my body for heat so it'll be in it's operating range.

Touch screens and Li Ion batteries on outdoor stuff like GPSs is absolutely asinine and the person that promoted that should be punched in the face. Multiple times. I can't stress this enough. In cold conditions, like below freezing, the Li Ion battery life is measured in minutes. If I'm buying something like this, I'm buying it for a wide range of conditions, in terms of heat and cold. Lithium (not lithium ion) batteries last a long time in the cold with no degradation until -20F, and even then they are darn near just as good in the -20 to -40 range.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I have an inReach mini. It's only purpose is tracking for emergency purposes. If I was going WAY out I would get a PLB IN ADDITION TO the inReach. There is only one thing the PLB does better, in my opinion, which is scream really loud for help. Otherwise the inReach does everything else better (and will still scream for help). I pay for the tracking service so even if something does happen to me, my GF and mom have a link to my last known location, likely within 10 minutes (time between pings), so the search range should be pretty damn narrow, especially compared to filing a "flight plan" which my intended route and estimated ETA. The inReach also lets me text in case it isn't a life and death emergency, but still an emergency. I can get a rescue from say a broken bike and need a pick up somewhere not on my planned route without calling for an emergency. And I can also communicate with emergency services to explain the situation. If I don't have my phone or I break it, I can still text, even if cumbersome (I do leave my phone behind a lot). And I can also send for help right from my watch or head unit, I don't even have to pull the unit out of my pack.

What I do NOT rely on the inReach for:
Anything

It is strictly a back-up. I will use it, almost every time I run or ride out of a cell network, but I never rely on it for anything. I just hope it is my saving grace is something bad did happen. It does pair with my phone and the app does have maps, but I don't use it.

I do find that the Fenix 6 Pro is super handy for everything. Built in topo maps, tons of trails, historical data from all other Garmin users (so you can see if people are using that trail), good battery life especially if you use the right settings, and pairs to all my devices (not needed for others, but a strong desire for me). I don't think that is what the OP wants, but it is great.

I think the hiking/outdoors style Garmin units (I still have my eTrex from 20 years ago) is probably what the OP wants.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Ogre said:


> If the Garmin topos have gotten a _lot_ better in the past 5 years or so, they will probably be the better bet since they likely have better battery life.


I'm gonna say they have gotten better. But I've been using a base map downloaded from GPS file depot, not a garmin product. It's basically a USGS topo map that I can zoom into at a very detailed level. It shows a lot of historic trails, but isn't a current map so it doesn't show new residential development, trails or road construction where that has occurred. It's awesome for backcountry though which is mainly what I use it for. At the time I bought my Oregons the only other option was to buy topo maps from Garmin for $100 or so, and I didn't get the impression they were great maps. Fortunately with the Oregon you can import a wide variety of map types.



Jayem said:


> Every In-reach unit has GPS nav capability. On the mini it kind of sucks, but all the other ones are much better for that purpose. Pretty sure most of them also interface with the garmin app on the phone.


Mine is an older model, and the map/navigation is pretty much useless on it. I figured if I needed it I could connect via the app. But my Garmin has always taken care of that functionality for me. Sounds like when I upgrade to a new model I'll have some good choices available.



Jayem said:


> Touch screens and Li Ion batteries on outdoor stuff like GPSs is absolutely asinine and the person that promoted that should be punched in the face. Multiple times. I can't stress this enough. In cold conditions, like below freezing, the Li Ion battery life is measured in minutes. If I'm buying something like this, I'm buying it for a wide range of conditions, in terms of heat and cold. Lithium (not lithium ion) batteries last a long time in the cold with no degradation until -20F, and even then they are darn near just as good in the -20 to -40 range.


I don't deal with cold temps often, but I will say the touch screen on both cell phone and Garmin are totally useless in rain. Each rain drop is sensed and acts like a random unintended finger touch on the screen, yet touching it with your finger won't register because of water on the screen. Fortunately I seldom deal with rain in the southwest, but I'd look at something push button only if I lived where there is frequent rain. I do like the touch screen on the Oregon 600. The one on the 400 sucked.

For OP, the Edge 530 or higher are the only units I see that show elevation and distance coming up on a track you're following. If that's a must have then this may be your unit. If you want satellite tracking and messaging the Inreach mini would do the job. If you have family members who worry about everything some thing you can easily send custom messages with would be very worthwhile. The combo GPS/satellite units they have don't seem to have the elevation/distance display you want. But its pretty easy to figure that would by studying your route in advance and looking at the topo map display.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

evdog said:


> I'm gonna say they have gotten better. But I've been using a base map downloaded from GPS file depot, not a garmin product. It's basically a USGS topo map that I can zoom into at a very detailed level. It shows a lot of historic trails, but isn't a current map so it doesn't show new residential development, trails or road construction where that has occurred. It's awesome for backcountry though which is mainly what I use it for. At the time I bought my Oregons the only other option was to buy topo maps from Garmin for $100 or so, and I didn't get the impression they were great maps. Fortunately with the Oregon you can import a wide variety of map types.


The USGS maps are good for some exploration, but they tend to be fairly dated and lack a lot of trail data.

I took a quick look at the GPS screenshots on Garmin's page and it doesn't look like they've gotten much better.

If they sold an Adventure Maps bundle for Garmin, I'd be a lot more interested.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

If you need up to date maps for trails, Trailforks is the way to go. Nothing else will be as current. I'd use Trailforks a lot more if you could download a base map. It's pretty disappointing they don't have that yet, and caching maps while you have cell access doesn't work very well. 

I have a lot of the paper Adventure maps. Only problem with those is they're only for specific areas and I spend plenty of time outside those areas. I don't expect the USGS base maps to be perfect. For me, they're the best source I can access while out of cell signal. I don't really care that they're dated.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

evdog said:


> If you need up to date maps for trails, Trailforks is the way to go. Nothing else will be as current. I'd use Trailforks a lot more if you could download a base map. It's pretty disappointing they don't have that yet, and caching maps while you have cell access doesn't work very well.
> 
> I have a lot of the paper Adventure maps. Only problem with those is they're only for specific areas and I spend plenty of time outside those areas. I don't expect the USGS base maps to be perfect. For me, they're the best source I can access while out of cell signal. I don't really care that they're dated.


Agree about Adventure Maps being limited in map locations.

Not as comfortable as you are about Trailforks. Definitely not happy with the bait-and-switch business model they built up around their app. Crowd source data by offering a free database then turn around and charge people for it meh.

I've also found a lot of the data around TF unreliable. I suspect its going to get worse with their fee based model now.


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## tahoescott3 (Sep 17, 2012)

evdog said:


> I took minimalist to mean having features for navigation, but not needing features for fitness like heart rate monitor and all that. I recall seeing ads for a GPS that will show you elevation profile coming up on your loaded route, can't recall if that was an Edge or something else like Wahoo. I use my Garmin Oregon 600 for navigation, but it's basically just a topo base map with whatever tracks I've loaded into it overlaid on that base map. I like it because I can zoom in and scroll around to see detailed topo info. It has a really nice touchscreen. I do a lot of exploring where I don't have a track pre-loaded and it's great for that. If you just want to follow a line there are plenty of models that do that well. The Oregon doesn't really "follow" a track, some other units do and will beep or warn you when you're off track. With the Oregon its up to you to follow the line visually. I don't mind it, but at times you miss a turn and go off course without realizing it. One other thing I like is the Oregon runs off AA's. I use rechargeables mostly, and for longer backpacking trips I use Energizer lithiums. One less thing to worry about keeping charged.
> 
> I have an Inreach as well which pre-dates garmin's acquisition of DeLorme. It lives in my pack for emergency use but I usually don't have it turned on for tracking. I only use that for bikepacking races where you sign up for tracking on Trackleaders.com. Haven't really bothered with cell phone linking much for sending messages, but I have friends who use that often to communicate with home. It can be much more useful than the few pre-programmed messages you otherwise get. The Inreach has been very reliable for tracking. I hear of lots of issues with Spot devices, particularly the older ones. The battery life on the Inreach has been impressive and it charges quickly. I think I charged it twice on the Arizona 750.


That is what I meant by minimalist. I don't need a bunch of extra features like heart rate and such. I really like the features on Ride with GPS through my phone, but don't want my phone out on the bike while riding. On the Colorado Trail this summer I don't expect too many unsigned turns, but I would like to know how many miles to the top of the climb or how far to the next town, or how many more feet of climbing to the top of the peak. Maybe I'm looking for something that doesn't exist. I do appreciate all the feedback, and I definitely have more to go off of now.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

FWIW, on longer bikepack routes I like to make cue sheets that I carry on my handlebar with elevation profile and a table showing total gain/loss and mileage between key spots. I am mostly interested in climbing as well, so I write in elevations for high/low points, water sources and resupply locations, and any other points of interest. Can add any other details as well like open hours for resupply stops. This gives me a lot of info faster than having a cue sheet in the form of notes or having to scan around a GPS map.

I'm not sure how the elevation/mileage functionality you're interested in would work on a big route like the CTR or AZTR. I know some units can give you mileage and gain on an upcoming climb, but what if that climb has a few false summits, or you want the gain to some other point like a town beyond it? I'm not sure if you can pick specific points from the track and get stats to that point. Maybe someone who has an Edge can comment.

I'm planning to ride the CTR next month and will be making these cue sheets again. Just downloaded the CTR track in fact. For navigation I'll continue to use the track loaded into my Garmin. You could probably get away without that as the CT is well signed, but there are some wilderness detours that include some turns, where I'd want to have a track to follow.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

evdog said:


> FWIW, on longer bikepack routes I like to make cue sheets that I carry on my handlebar with elevation profile and a table showing total gain/loss and mileage between key spots. I am mostly interested in climbing as well, so I write in elevations for high/low points, water sources and resupply locations, and any other points of interest. Can add any other details as well like open hours for resupply stops. This gives me a lot of info faster than having a cue sheet in the form of notes or having to scan around a GPS map.


I like this idea a lot. The elevation profile gives you a fantastic way of confirming you are going the right way without much thought. If the profile says you are at the bottom of a big climb and you are descending, it's a big red flag which you might easily miss on a map. Clouds or fog can confuse your sense of direction, but not up and down.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

im a former spot and Oregon user. InReach is superior in every way.

Garmin 530 with bar remote control AND Garmin InReach Mini will do all you seek.
Battery life is excellent and charging is quick. If you use a heart rate monitor or cadence Or power meters, the 530 takes all that data and stores it in the fit file of Your trip if that is of interest. I’m not a huge fan of garmin’s human interface design, but I got used to it after using for about a month. The capabilities outweigh the design issues I have with their stuff.

Having a smart phone will give you additional capability such as composing outgoing messages easily via satellite and uploading routes to the 530. Additionally, with an iPhone, you can read garmin’s vector based topos or other map products and compose routes to send to your 530 easily during breaks. You could even use an old iPod or iPad mini without a gps chip and use the InReach for location services se devices.

Harold is incorrect about the information on elevation profiles. The garmin 530 has climb pro, which will display the upcoming climb in an elevation view and show your progress on the climb. It is an incredibly useful feature, especially when you are feeling the pain and need a little motivation to push past the 3rd false summit on your route . The one caveat, you must be following a track that you uploaded to the device for it to work. This is typical when racing or following a route. Best part, the Climb screen come on automatically when you approach the climb. You can disable this or switch to a different screen if you don’t want to see it, which is a great reason to have the bar mounted remote so you don’t have to fiddle with buttons on the unit (or touch screen if so equipped).

I do not miss my Oregon or Spot after making the switch. I like having my emergency com separate from my gps in case of accident. You can buy a garmin with InReach built in these days, but if you crash and crunch the unit…


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, I don't think you're gonna get anything that's going to give you a "xx mi to the top of y climb" sort of thing. That sort of functionality is going to require a lot more back end with the data that isn't typically included in route data. What you're likely to get is a distance to your next turn. But like I mentioned above, this heavily comes down to how you plan/plot the route you intend to follow. If your turns aren't marked as actual turns in the route, then they won't show up as intermediates. I suppose in your planning, you could set intermediate points at major summits so they'd show up in your "distance to next" field. not sure about a "climbing to next" field, as I don't recall seeing that one as an option.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

For the segments of the Iditarod, such as checkpoint-to-checkpoint or lodge-to-lodge, I simply made a bunch of individual GPX files for each leg, checked and double checked them. In their file name, I included the mileage. Then I loaded each leg depending on where I was. I also started my garmin instinct watch, so I could look at how far I was in relation to the leg length/objective. I find this super helpful. Although the GPS could display a map or a more data-style display, I found the combination of the map and purple line plus my watch was a winning combo for navigation. There were plenty of people trying to "wing it" on their phone that later had significant navigation troubles. It's great to always know exactly where you are and how far you have to go.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Jayem said:


> For the segments of the Iditarod, such as checkpoint-to-checkpoint or lodge-to-lodge, I simply made a bunch of individual GPX files for each leg, checked and double checked them. In their file name, I included the mileage. Then I loaded each leg depending on where I was. I also started my garmin instinct watch, so I could look at how far I was in relation to the leg length/objective. I find this super helpful. Although the GPS could display a map or a more data-style display, I found the combination of the map and purple line plus my watch was a winning combo for navigation. There were plenty of people trying to "wing it" on their phone that later had significant navigation troubles. It's great to always know exactly where you are and how far you have to go.


I think the lesson is to do all of this work in the planning stages before you get out there. There are several different ways to put it all together, GPS receiver or not.

These days, I lean towards the simple side of things with my GPS, in that I just want that device to record and display data. I might program a route into it, but I'm going to do most of my work at home and make sure that I get the route correct and that I have turn notifications programmed into it. Then the bulk of my navigation in the field is going to occur on a paper map or some sort of cue sheets. If the elevation profiles are important, then I'll have profiles printed on my cue sheets as shown above. I'll annotate them as necessary depending on my route and what might be important to help me wayfind (elevations of major intersections, stream crossings, other notable features). The notifications on the GPS are going to be like a redundancy. If my map/cue sheets and the GPS disagree on something, then I know I'll need to take care to resolve that disagreement before continuing.

Garmin has some full handhelds with InReach functionality built in. But also separate InReach devices. Just depends what you want. I'd probably lean towards a separate device. There are also other competitors on the market. ACR Bivy, SPOT of course, etc. All of them are a little different. I have spot devices for work. But have only been assigned one for a single trip. So all I did with it was turn it on, check messages, and then turn it off at the end of the day. Not enough to get much of a feel for it, but it was a model with a built-in qwerty keyboard.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Harold said:


> Yeah, I don't think you're gonna get anything that's going to give you a "xx mi to the top of y climb" sort of thing. That sort of functionality is going to require a lot more back end with the data that isn't typically included in route data. What you're likely to get is a distance to your next turn. But like I mentioned above, this heavily comes down to how you plan/plot the route you intend to follow. If your turns aren't marked as actual turns in the route, then they won't show up as intermediates. I suppose in your planning, you could set intermediate points at major summits so they'd show up in your "distance to next" field. not sure about a "climbing to next" field, as I don't recall seeing that one as an option.


You're wrong again. This is becoming a repeating pattern man 
Try out a modern Edge cycling gps and have your misconceptions challenged.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

LOL.

My question for edge owners is can you pick a location ahead of you such as a town or a high point that comes after a number of false summits and have the unit tell you how far and how much gain to get there? Or does it just give you that info for the next climb? I ask because a big climb will often have numerous pitches, but I'd be more interested in how much to get to the very top. Or the town beyond it.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

evdog said:


> LOL.
> 
> My question for edge owners is can you pick a location ahead of you such as a town or a high point that comes after a number of false summits and have the unit tell you how far and how much gain to get there? Or does it just give you that info for the next climb? I ask because a big climb will often have numerous pitches, but I'd be more interested in how much to get to the very top. Or the town beyond it.


My 830 will, also using built in topo maps with historical user data. I don't think it is wholly accurate, if it says I am climbing 800' in the next mile it might be .8 or 1.2 miles or 600-1000', but I call all those numbers close enough. But it will show distance, pitches, how many climbs you have left, color coded to how difficult they are (a formula of distance and angle), all displayed with a graph. I personally never use it, but I can see how it could be useful for some people out there and I could imagine myself using it for certain situations.

Nothing can replace paper and practice, but the modern 30 series Garmin's are, in my opinion, good. I think it is an example of the market forcing innovation, the newcombers forced Garmin to actually improve their models instead of just adding a buggy feature.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

evdog said:


> LOL.
> 
> My question for edge owners is can you pick a location ahead of you such as a town or a high point that comes after a number of false summits and have the unit tell you how far and how much gain to get there? Or does it just give you that info for the next climb? I ask because a big climb will often have numerous pitches, but I'd be more interested in how much to get to the very top. Or the town beyond it.


check out the unit's instructions. False summits are typically accounted for in the overall climb stats. I like the way it work, seems to do a good job of defining the climb, even when there are significant falses. if you jump off your course and take a detour, you either load a gpx for the detour or plan the new course on your phone and send it to the unit. I think you would really have to want that data to plan a route, mid ride though. Really not too different than making a course on a Oregon, Montana, or MotionX GPS on the phone.


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## 3blackbikes (May 4, 2011)

Since you mentioned that you are riding the CT, you can also purchase the guidebook as a paper guide. It covers each segment in detail (only Denver--Durango direction, unfortunately), with elevation profiles, water sources, camp spots, and lists all the bike wilderness detours as well. Pocket sized and waterproof. I'll be carrying it as a quick reference backup to my GPS navigation unit (Garmin Edge 530), mostly to plan for water stops and to know how bad the climbs are up ahead. 









Colorado Trail Guidebook, 9th Edition - Colorado Trail Foundation


The most up-to-date, official CT Guidebook, it will remain so for the entire 2021 Colorado Trail season. This book covers the entire Colorado Trail, all 567 miles between Denver and Durango, including Segments 1-28 plus CW01-CW05. This is the first edition Guidebook that covers the 80-mile CT...




coloradotrail.org


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

evdog said:


> LOL.
> 
> My question for edge owners is can you pick a location ahead of you such as a town or a high point that comes after a number of false summits and have the unit tell you how far and how much gain to get there? Or does it just give you that info for the next climb? I ask because a big climb will often have numerous pitches, but I'd be more interested in how much to get to the very top. Or the town beyond it.


So @Verboten likes harping on me being wrong about the climbing. I get it. I own a 520, not a 530, and there are some small things that mine won't do at all.

An intermediate point like a town (or anything else, honestly) is tougher if it isn't exactly at the summit, if the climbing tool on the newest Edges works the way it sounds. You have to use the method I described earlier, and put a marker there in the route you plan and load prior to beginning your ride. I know RWGPS will allow you to put said marker in the route (that will then show up as an intermediate point that will come up under the "distance to next" field). I don't know if other route planning options will let you do it the same way, or close enough to work the same. But you have to do the work beforehand.

I don't think I'd want to try plotting a whole new route (or alternate) on my phone and sending it to my GPS unless I absolutely had to. When I do it on my PC, I'm certainly appreciating the extra precision available to me to define when notifications pop up. Trying to set an intermediate point like that mid ride will be iffy, at best, I think. And probably won't be possible at all on the device unless you have a touchscreen model.

This is where a topo map is so useful, though. The contour lines are going to give you the info you're asking for. And for you folks complaining about how old usgs topo maps are, do y'all realize that they've been updated pretty recently? And those updated maps have MUCH better trail coverage? You can get 'em for free at nationalmap.gov and they even have satellite imagery layered into the file. You'll have to install a geopdf extension to mess with the layers in the file, but that's all free, too.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

@Harold So calling you out for writing dissertations on incorrect information is harping?
I imagine the OP is looking for accurate advice, not a pissing match.
You win the internet today.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I like to just wing it.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

Really when you get down to it, these days we have a ton of awesome options for both navigation and safety in small, handheld, reliable products. You almost have to work to screw that up. And often, as evidenced here, those choices and discussions are like motor oil debates. I think as long as you have one device that calls the cavalry for help via satellite when true emergency strikes...and...an actual paper map...and...one device that has a reliable GPS with loaded maps...the rest is just fluff...nice fluff perhaps...but fluff. If one can't properly determine their course properly with a folded paper map of the area in question, a decent GPS with loaded maps, and a safety warning device via satellite, then maybe that person shouldn't venture out alone. We have it good. And now with some devices having the sat safety communication and GPS all in one unit, it's even easier. My "paper map" isn't a suggestion...it's insurance. And of course I'm not talking about devices to measure workout data and such. I'm talking heading into the hinterlands.


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## ransom208 (Mar 31, 2021)

I have a garmin montana that i use on remote river trips. Doing one this august out of lake clark national park. I also have a spot. 2 different animals. i did trade the spot in for an inreach. Still going to have the garmin along with the inreach and paper maps. The paper maps let you see the big picture.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Lots of Garmin talk here, I use a Wahoo Elemnt Bolt and with a planned route I have an elevation display that will show me the upcoming climbs. It's not quite as fancy as the latest Garmin units popping up the climb as you approach, but the info is there.

Here's a shot of the phone companion app that shows the whole route with elevation profile:


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