# XC World Cup Equipment 2021



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

So as not to annoy the barefoot runners  I've created the 2021 version of this thread.

First topic of discussion would be Jordan Sarrou's bike. Like fellow winning Specialized Epic rider Haley Batten, Frenchman Jordan Sarrou rides a bike with a sane sizing and stem length, not even a negative rise. He finished in good placing on the short track with it in preparation for tomorrow's XCO race in Leogang.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-jordan-sarrous-world-championships-custom-specialized-epic.html?trk=rss



Last year he rode a pretty normal looking BMC Fourstroke to victory at the World Championships as well. For larger, more powerful riders a pound isn't a big deal, as it weighed in at 23.6 pounds.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-jordan-sarrous-world-champs-winning-bmc-fourstroke.html


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Isn't the stem 70mm?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Some people want things to stay the same and try their hardest to speak that as the truth, but things change. Perhaps cyclocross would be a better sport for those people, since the rules prohibit much innovation.
> 
> I'm correct or I wouldn't speak it, but more importantly, the industry has gotten a lot better. There's some great bikes being raced these days.


Well he runs negative rise stems so you are not correct. I suggest you go on his IG account and look at his bike. His bike looks nothing like your setup by the way, so not sure what you think you're right about.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The stock stem size for a size L Epic is 70mm, yes. 

For that muddy World Championship he went with 2.1" Barzo's "custom cut." It's impossible to tell from the muddy photos if that means the knobs were lopped to open up more mud clearing space, but that's a good tire for experimenting with, definitely a winner for muddy races.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Ho hum.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Looks negative rise to me. Not extreme but that is negative. Probably a -6.

The head tube on the epics is so low that you don’t really need that negative of a stem to get your bars low. Tall riders like yourself who don’t want a World Cup fit might find it too low.

All are actually running quite low stack height now. On a small bike that is great, not sure about tall bikes though. I think they are giving up some front end stiffness that large riders would like.

Interestingly if you compare it the Bmc the only real difference in geometry is 5mm of reach.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

It would be really easy for this thread to continue as an argument about geometry. Which is just old.

I am way more interested in why do WC racers make the bike choices they do. I know from my rather extensive experience that most of them are constantly testing and riding different bikes with different set-up. But some still default to pretty traditional set-ups.

Take a look at Carter Woods Norco Revolver.

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/20652998/

I have known Carter for a while. He first appeared in BC at Enduro races, but switched to XC bike around 15. And although his home town of 10,000 has a huge XC tradition (more world cup podium riders than the state of Texas), stems longer than 50mm have been dead there for about 20 years. He wasn't pushed to this set-up by anybody, actually quite the opposite. Yet he still went this way. Just as a note, Norco designed this bike around a 50mm stem.

Carter descends crazy fast on this set-up. He is part of the wicked training group on Vancouver Island and spends significant time following Finn Iles and Mark Wallace around.

So for me the interesting questions are
1. What is he doing that allows him to ride so fast on this traditional set-up.
2. Why does he find a bit longer stem to be faster.


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## Exmuhle (Nov 7, 2019)

chomxxo said:


> Some people want things to stay the same and try their hardest to speak that as the truth, but things change. Perhaps cyclocross would be a better sport for those people, since the rules prohibit much innovation.


I'm a Cyclocross fan, but I have to say, I find it as bad as road for embracing tech innovation; maybe it's because of it's road roots, and it's classed as a road sub category. I never understood the rule limiting tyre width to 33mm. 
I'd say XC is still far more innovative, even if you think it's still conservative, especially compared to the gravity disciplines.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Exmuhle said:


> I'm a Cyclocross fan, but I have to say, I find it as bad as road for embracing tech innovation; maybe it's because of it's road roots, and it's classed as a road sub category. I never understood the rule limiting tyre width to 33mm.
> I'd say XC is still far more innovative, even if you think it's still conservative, especially compared to the gravity disciplines.


Cyclocross to me is proto-mountain bike racing. MTB was invented in California in the 1970s, we all know the story, but 70 years before that, road racers were doing a steeplechase through muddy fields for some winter cross training. I personally believe that if the UCI opened up the rules, cross bikes would evolve into mountain bikes. You see with gravel racing that the tires are getting wider, and there are even full-suspension bikes.



LMN said:


> So for me the interesting questions are
> 1. What is he doing that allows him to ride so fast on this traditional set-up.
> 2. Why does he find a bit longer stem to be faster.


Well, why, then? I was hoping for the reason in all that. Neither Sarrou nor Woods' setups look unfamiliar to me, 4-5" of saddle drop was what I rode for many years.

One of the top posts in Sarrou's Instagram account is him having a massive endo in the rocks--it happens. More interesting than all that is that NBA Hall of Famer and avid mountain biker Reggie Miller (6'7") asking Jordan for tips. 

__
http://instagr.am/p/CP00gjcIJMd/

We've also just seen two pro bikes in the 23 pound range, which is a healthy development I think. But it's interesting that most have settled in around 22 pounds, as it used to be that one goes for as light as possible.

Here's a page with more details. With a 67.5* head angle of both bikes, a -5 stem is still going to point up a bit.


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-carter-woods-race-winning-norco-revolver-fs.html



I like the rubber added to the Crank Brothers pedals


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## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Can anyone confirm that the Scott Sram riders all stepped up to 180mm front rotors on the new bikes? Hard to tell from the pics I’ve seen but eyeballing it kinda looks the case. 

I only looked/noticed because coincidentally I just put a 180 on the front of my Spark for a race last weekend because I have been having trouble keeping the 160 quiet.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

TwincamRob said:


> Can anyone confirm that the Scott Sram riders all stepped up to 180mm front rotors on the new bikes? Hard to tell from the pics I've seen but eyeballing it kinda looks the case.
> 
> I only looked/noticed because coincidentally I just put a 180 on the front of my Spark for a race last weekend because I have been having trouble keeping the 160 quiet.


if they are running the SID ultimate race day, then by default they are running a 180 rotor. I have two of those forks and they are native 180 mm with no adapter.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

On a completely different note, got my hands on a Fox Transfer SL this weekend. Huge weight saving from the old Transfer. Post is limited to a 100mm and it only has two discrete positions. The force required to lower is super low, resting my hand on it is enough over come the spring, but the return speed is nice and quick.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I've been seeing that trend, got some opinions on that. The Formula R1s are by far the oldest parts on my bike, they're still light and powerful with 160s and I'm not a light rider. According to Formula, the move to mineral oil from DOT fluid decreased the power of lightweight brakes.



TwincamRob said:


> Can anyone confirm that the Scott Sram riders all stepped up to 180mm front rotors on the new bikes? Hard to tell from the pics I've seen but eyeballing it kinda looks the case.
> 
> I only looked/noticed because coincidentally I just put a 180 on the front of my Spark for a race last weekend because I have been having trouble keeping the 160 quiet.


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## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

tommyrod74 said:


> if they are running the SID ultimate race day, then by default they are running a 180 rotor. I have two of those forks and they are native 180 mm with no adapter.


Ah ok, thanks!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Loana Lecomte and Thomas Griot's winning bike, the Massi Aire SL. Note the tied spokes.


















Bicis de los pro: Massi Aire SL de Loana Lecomte


La Massi Aire SL de Loana Lecomte es la más espectacular del equipo gracias a una decoración cuidada y llamativa. La joven francesa afronta el reto de medirse con las élite en la Copa del Mundo aún siendo sub-23




esmtb.com


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

How about Flukiger’s Thomus? Us U.S. folks don’t see those at all. Anyone in Euroland check them out?


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Can somebody please identify Mat Fluck's tires? The look like Thunder Burt's...



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-runaway-train-leogang-xc-world-cup-2021.html


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> I like the rubber added to the Crank Brothers pedals
> View attachment 1934706


I use that exact same set up. I've using CB pedals since forever and the contact sleeves help a lot with pedal and shoe interface.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Flueckiger was testing the new Thunder Burt 2.35s last year


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-mathias-flueckigers-thomus-lightrider-wc-nove-mesto-world-cup-xc-2020.html



...But this looks like a new-pattern Racing Ralph (rear specific) on the front. I don't blame him because I didn't find the Racing Ray very good.










The Thomus looks very clean out there, nice bike. Like the new Scott it can be mistaken for a hardtail at a distance. I love the straight line through the top tube to the seatstays.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Victor Koretzky raced the XCC on road shoes and pedals...









Koretzky compitió el Short Track de Leogang con zapatillas de carretera


El francés Victor Koretzky se decantó por correr el Short Track con zapatillas y pedales de carretera.




www.brujulabike.com





Quite a few years ago, Christoph Sauser did the same for the Leadville 100


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## Chiselized (Jan 17, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Loana Lecomte and Thomas Griot's winning bike, the Massi Aire SL. Note the tied spokes.
> 
> View attachment 1934852
> 
> ...


That's a Kalloy Uno stem!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Definitely a risky proposition, I've considered doing that. Road shoes are lighter and stiffer generally, but I wonder how he got clipped in quickly at the start? Dylan Johnson uses road shoes and MTB cleat adapters.



carlostruco said:


> Victor Koretzky raced the XCC on road shoes and pedals...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> Can somebody please identify Mat Fluck's tires? The look like Thunder Burt's...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-runaway-train-leogang-xc-world-cup-2021.html


He and avancini have been running the Racing Ralph F and R a good bit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The WC race bike I would really like to spend time on in SuperCaliber. Trek some serious risks with this bike and went outside of the box for it.

My understanding is the goal of the Super Caliber is to have an FS that has the pedalling stiffness and responsiveness of a HT. I have an Oiz and an Epic, they do not have this. Doesn't matter if I crank the pressure and lockout the shocks when you stand up you know you are on an FS.

I think a lot of the hesitation about the SuperCaliber is the short travel combined with a pretty average frame weight. Sort of begs the question is 60mm of travel worth the extra kilogram of frame weight. I would really like to ride the bike and find out myself.

Result wise it was a good weekend for the SC, it took wins in both the men's and women's U23 category and a podium in the elite mens. 

I was sort of surprised that Trek Factory riders went with their HT. As HT go that bike is absolute tank, I would have thought with their FS so close in weight they would have gone that way.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Looking at the race analysis it looks like Nino raced tire. He was off the pace until late in the race. Usually when someone races like that it means there is some solid fatigue in their legs. Now is he tired because he is training hard, or is he tired because he is a bit older and just doesn't recover like he did.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

LMN said:


> The WC race bike I would really like to spend time on in SuperCaliber. Trek some serious risks with this bike and went outside of the box for it.
> 
> My understanding is the goal of the Super Caliber is to have an FS that has the pedalling stiffness and responsiveness of a HT. I have an Oiz and an Epic, they do not have this. Doesn't matter if I crank the pressure and lockout the shocks when you stand up you know you are on an FS.
> 
> ...


I think this is a fair assessment. I have not ridden it so my assessment is mostly theoretical.

It does seem strange for Trek to build a heavy hardtail that is a bit of a soft tail via the Iso speed and then build a second softer soft tail based on the Iso strut. There doesn't seem to be a lot of separation between their race bikes. For me, the beauty of a hardtail is the weight and simplicity and the Procaliber compromises on both.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I actually like softtails, I spent a lot of time on them early on, the first-gen Scalpel (65mm with flexing chanstays), and the Salsa Dos Niner (25mm). I've had a friend with a Moots YBB. I also have a friend with a Supercaliber that I've checked out quite closely. For one thing I like how solid it is--a lot of soft tails aren't durable and they develop flex pretty easily. Trek clearly invested in making the bike stiff. The weight is neglible but it's a sub-5 pound frame so neither is it as heavy as some of the FS bikes.

In retrospect I'd say they're better than hardtails, but they don't ride the same as a full suspension. You see the riders rising above the saddle like a hardtail more often. So the Supercaliber will buck you more often than not. Suspension works because although your legs and arms are great suspension, your body can't react as fast as suspension can to all of the terrain. It also takes some energy to suspend yourself above a bucking bike.

We can definitely debate the time penalty, but I'm willing to bet a case of Molsten or Shiner Bock that a Top Fuel under any of Trek's World Cup riders would win a timed lap vs. a Supercaliber.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> We can definitely debate the time penalty, but I'm willing to bet a case of Molsten or Shiner Bock that a Top Fuel under any of Trek's World Cup riders would win a timed lap vs. a Supercaliber.


I'm not confident enough to say with certainty and across all courses. I suspect a lot of it will be terrain dependent. I've also been surprised enough by actual results versus theoretical predictions that I'll withhold conclusions unless somebody actually conducts the test.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Fair enough. But I think we have enough results by now to say the Superclaiber is a concept that didn't prove itself. A bike like this would've been fantastic in the early 29er days, when suspension design wasn't worked out and most were too heavy.

We don't have nearly enough results to start bagging on the Spark 120mm. The Top Fuel 120/115 is a bike that's flown under the radar for a few years, but whose time has come. It's endurance racer Payson McElveen's ride of choice.

In watching Leogang and the other courses on the circuit, I'd say that most of the tracks are way more wide open and smooth than any of the races I race. They have selective sections that are more technical however.

Anton Cooper did well, but could he have done better on a FS? That 1kg of weight advantage I'd say penalized him on the technical descents. Also, all the minute deflections during the course of the race that you absorb in your spine add up--why didn't he close the six-second gap when he had many chances?

I can say that Dascalu lost one place and may have finished out of top-5 contention should have Litscher not slipped a gear. They were both breathing down his neck as he brake-checked and white-knuckled all of the downhill corners.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

TwincamRob said:


> Ah ok, thanks!


Sid ultimate with charger race day damper can take 160 to 200 mm rotors.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> Fair enough. But I think we have enough results by now to say the Superclaiber is a concept that didn't prove itself. A bike like this would've been fantastic in the early 29er days, when suspension design wasn't worked out and most were too heavy.
> 
> We don't have nearly enough results to start bagging on the Spark 120mm. The Top Fuel 120/115 is a bike that's flown under the radar for a few years, but whose time has come. It's endurance racer Payson McElveen's ride of choice.
> 
> ...


Well, you won't catch me defending the Supercaliber. Whether it is better suited than the Top Fuel for world cup courses....I just don't know. Each bike gives up something and gains something on the other, at least on paper.

As for Anton, I guess we can criticize him for not being able to close a 6 second gap. But we also don't know how much time he would have lost on the long climbs if he wasn't on a hardtail. He did finish 3rd out 58 of a very competitive field so I wouldn't really call it a terrible choice to race the HT. I bet if you told him before the race that he would podium on that HT, he would be pretty happy. Also, in the women's field, a hardtail also landed on the podium. In fact, Laura Stigger looked like she was one of the fastest descenders and she wasn't even riding a particularly slack hardtail. I would say the overall evidence is still pretty inconclusive and probably will continue to be unless we get access to proprietary data from the teams, or a third party organization decides to do a randomized control trial.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Brad said:


> Sid ultimate with charger race day damper can take 160 to 200 mm rotors.


SID Ultimate cannot take a 160, the Ultimate SL can, which is the 32mm fork.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

LMN said:


> Looking at the race analysis it looks like Nino raced tire. He was off the pace until late in the race. Usually when someone races like that it means there is some solid fatigue in their legs. Now is he tired because he is training hard, or is he tired because he is a bit older and just doesn't recover like he did.


Nino also negative splitted the race with fairly consistent gains.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> But I think we have enough results by now to say the Supercaliber is a concept that didn't prove itself


Do we? The bike was on podiums quite often with Jolanda in 2019, she just didn't pull of wins. By that logic we can say most bikes never proved themselves.


chomxxo said:


> The Top Fuel 120/115 is a bike that's flown under the radar for a few years, but whose time has come. It's endurance racer Payson McElveen's ride of choice.


If you follow Payson on socials, he also rides the SuperCaliber a bunch, just depends on what he's doing. The TF pedals fine, but you would never confuse it with a hardcore XCO bike.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It's a question that deserves answering with results. There are Supercaliber vs Top Fuel comparos out there, but I haven't found anything yet that doesn't rely heavily upon subjective feel and just re-stating the intentions of the bike company.

Maxime Marotte moved up the standings and quietly had a good Leogang race on the new Santa Cruz Blur with another sane-looking setup, finishing 7th. Allez Maxime!
























Maxime Marotte (@maxime_marotte) • Instagram photos and videos







www.instagram.com


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> SID Ultimate cannot take a 160, the Ultimate SL can, which is the 32mm fork.


Ooooops yes 100%correct.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> It's a question that deserves answering with results. There are Supercaliber vs Top Fuel comparos out there, but I haven't found anything yet that doesn't rely heavily upon subjective feel and just re-stating the intentions of the bike company.
> 
> Maxime Marotte moved up the standings and quietly had a good Leogang race on the new Santa Cruz Blur with another sane-looking setup, finishing 7th.
> 
> ...


I'll note, since we're (the collective...no chom and me personally) "arguing" about it; it looks like the Blur is the same weight as the SC...but you get a little extra travel. Is that important? I don't know. But "more is better"...amirite???


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I never argue, I just state the facts and then patiently listen to the replies  

More than the travel is holding the Supercaliber back, it still has an old-school steep HTA and slack STA. The reach is decent, but not great.

The new Blur is a really solid entry. It's not spectacular like the new Epic or Spark, but pretty darn good.

Scott has pushed everyone to start considering their "downcountry" bikes for racing--it will be interesting to see how that works out. My local dealer said the new Spark's release date is August--Scott wanted to put it out there as early as possible.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Even world cup racers get caught with what I call the "shiny object trap". The "technical features" on WC courses actually make up a very small percentage of the race time. 

Take Leogang, the descents had sections were legit, it was steep rough and intimidating. But those sections were only 10 seconds in length. On that course if you added up the total time spent racing on section where a more capable bike makes a difference you get maybe 3 minutes throughout the race. And if the more bikes is 10% quicker (that is about the gap between my HT with a high post and my enduro bike) we are only talking about 18s. Which is significant, but also well within the theoretical gains of losing a 1lb of weight.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> I never argue, I just state the facts and then patiently listen to the replies
> 
> More than the travel is holding the Supercaliber back, it still has an old-school steep HTA and slack STA. The reach is decent, but not great.
> 
> ...


Rotflmao 
Amusing how you continuously position geometry changes (facts) as performance gains (subjective) as race results (facts) don't support your rhetoric (noise)


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Even world cup racers get caught with what I call the "shiny object trap". The "technical features" on WC courses actually make up a very small percentage of the race time.
> 
> Take Leogang, the descents had sections were legit, it was steep rough and intimidating. But those sections were only 10 seconds in length. On that course if you added up the total time spent racing on section where a more capable bike makes a difference you get maybe 3 minutes throughout the race. And if the more bikes is 10% quicker (that is about the gap between my HT with a high post and my enduro bike) we are only talking about 18s. Which is significant, but also well within the theoretical gains of losing a 1lb of weight.


By far a bigger portion of the race result is the ability to climb fast therefore W/kg. 
The next performance differentiator is descending skills and temperament.
But before we even get to the start line having a good week leading up to the race is absolutely key


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## john_bikeguy (Nov 23, 2017)

Brad said:


> Rotflmao
> Amusing how you continuously position geometry changes (facts) as performance gains (subjective) as race results (facts) don't support your rhetoric (noise)


The Supercaliber design is only 2 years old. I don't think XC racing has changed that much since or that TREK doesn't know what they are doing. Is there any science to say what the ideal HTA and STA range is for WC XC racing? For a second generation Supercaliber, I think TREK could improve the design with 60-80mm travel and dropping 200 grams with a little less emphasis on the frame being ultra-stiff and tanky.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

john_bikeguy said:


> The Supercaliber design is only 2 years old. I don't think XC racing has changed that much since or that TREK doesn't know what they are doing. Is there any science to say what the ideal HTA and STA range is for WC XC racing? For a second generation Supercaliber, I think TREK could improve the design with 60-80mm travel and dropping 200 grams with a little less emphasis on the frame being ultra-stiff and tanky.


Well I don't think its a terrible design at all. With the current XCO format of selecting the bike for the weekend before the XCC, its sort of makes sense to have a tweener bike. Its not the type of bike I'd select though since it misses a few tricks but I can see why it will appeal to a higher W'/kg rider.

There's no science that proves any geometry works better than another unless you believe PinkBike does science ( no I didn't think so ). We can go beack 30 years and find bikes that had longer reach, shorter chain stays etc etc and not one has given its rider a significant advantage.The biggest gains came from sports science relating to human performance, suspension and reliable gearing, and clipless pedals.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

No World Cup equipment thread is complete without Pauline Ferrand Prevot's custom painted BMC Fourstroke FS01.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-pauline-ferrand-prevots-bmc-was-decorated-with-tape-by-an-anonymous-artist.html












The bike was created by the artist No Curves who describes himself as a geometric tape artist and is known only by his pseudonym. 

The video is 100% serious!


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

WR304 said:


> No World Cup equipment thread is complete without Pauline Ferrand Prevot's custom painted BMC Fourstroke FS01.


I know art is subjective, so I certainly won't argue with anyone about their preference. But personally, I liked the paint job on her previous Canyon better.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Loana's bike up close.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-loana-lecomtes-winning-massi-aire-sl.html


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## meschenbruch (Jan 15, 2017)

What are peoples thoughts on the tied spokes and occasionally seeing the 'vibration damping stickers', just placebo enhancements??? Seeing Loana's tied spokes reminded me.

There were a couple of comments from Kate's mechanic on this bike check which are... curious...



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-kate-courtneys-scott-scale-albstadt-xc-world-cup-2021.html


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

meschenbruch said:


> What are peoples thoughts on the tied spokes and occasionally seeing the 'vibration damping stickers', just placebo enhancements??? Seeing Loana's tied spokes reminded me.
> 
> There were a couple of comments from Kate's mechanic on this bike check which are... curious...
> 
> ...


Some of the stuff just has to do with an extra level of care in bike preparation.

Tied spokes are sort of like making sure the tire label is centred at the valve stem. Just shows a level of professionalism.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> No World Cup equipment thread is complete without Pauline Ferrand Prevot's custom painted BMC Fourstroke FS01.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


very cool video. I would definitley describe her as a Panther


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

LMN said:


> Some of the stuff just has to do with an extra level of care in bike preparation.
> 
> Tied spokes are sort of like making sure the tire label is centred at the valve stem. Just shows a level of professionalism.


I almost posted the link...just to get La Duke's take on tied spokes. 😁


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Mathias Flueckiger and his race-winning bike.

We can see from his bike check back last year that there's been a positive change in his cockpit setup since then. A lot of riders are favoring backsweep which shortens the effective stem length even further.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-mathias-flueckigers-thomus-lightrider-wc-nove-mesto-world-cup-xc-2020.html?trk=rss


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

But you make it sound like Trek doesn't know what they're doing, lol. The Supercaliber is the bike that the traditionalists wanted and it hasn't proven itself.

It's unfortunate that analytics is pretty unfounded in World Cup racing, thus some (especially older racers) clinging to deflection-heavy setups that leave no room for error, even when athletes are giving it full gas.



john_bikeguy said:


> The Supercaliber design is only 2 years old. I don't think XC racing has changed that much since or that TREK doesn't know what they are doing. Is there any science to say what the ideal HTA and STA range is for WC XC racing? For a second generation Supercaliber, I think TREK could improve the design with 60-80mm travel and dropping 200 grams with a little less emphasis on the frame being ultra-stiff and tanky.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MattMay said:


> Loana's bike up close.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-loana-lecomtes-winning-massi-aire-sl.html


Did anybody else notice how stiff she runs her front suspension? I was watching the replay today and noted that well into the race she had only used half of her front wheel travel. I took a look at the travel marker at the end and more had been used. But she was no where near full travel.

Girls put so much less force through their forks, even ones who descend really fast. It seems they use their legs a lot more than guys to generate force when descending.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> But you make it sound like Trek doesn't know what they're doing, lol. The Supercaliber is the bike that the traditionalists wanted and it hasn't proven itself.
> 
> It's unfortunate that analytics is pretty unfounded in World Cup racing, thus some (especially older racers) clinging to deflection-heavy setups that leave no room for error, even when athletes are giving it full gas.


What are you basing your assessment of the super caliber in World Cup competition on?

Is it Neff? Did you know that in 2019 she had the second highest number of podiums at UCI a races in her career. Only 2014, when she was racing on 27.5 wheels was better.

mtbdata is an awesome sit for race stats btw


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

It's funny how the past couple of seasons, World Cup Men's racing was a bit boring at times having a two horse race compared to the Women's fiel being on the edge of your seat the whole race. 2021 seems like a reversal of fortunes...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

meschenbruch said:


> What are peoples thoughts on the tied spokes and occasionally seeing the 'vibration damping stickers', just placebo enhancements??? Seeing Loana's tied spokes reminded me.
> 
> There were a couple of comments from Kate's mechanic on this bike check which are... curious...
> 
> ...


Tied and soldered spokes are quite an old school thing. When you see tied and soldered spokes on a modern MTB wheel the main reason is that if a spoke were to break mid race by being fastened to the adjacent spoke the broken spoke parts will stay in place without flapping around or jamming in the frame so the rider is able to continue.

There are arguments about stiffness as well but added reliability is a benefit for tied and soldered spokes. It's one less thing to go wrong.

A good example of this is Mathieu Van Der Poel's Canyon Lux CF.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-...-canyon-lux-nove-mesto-xc-world-cup-2021.html

If you look at the wheels on his bike the focus is more on reliability than lightness. They're handbuilt wheels with Shimano XTR hubs, unbranded Duke Lucky Jack rims, 32 spokes front and rear that are tied and soldered so they're not going to be particularly light but should be very solid.

Something else to note for pro equipment is that Mathieu Van Der Poel's incredibly long socks aren't that long just as a fashion statement. They're part of his aero gear along with the Kalas skinsuit and Abus Airbreaker helmet. Aero socks are actually really worth having as they can add a small but worthwhile aero benefit without any downsides apart from terrible tan lines. ?

Kalas aero Z1 socks (as worn by Mathieu Van Der Poel)





__





Kalas | AERO Z1 | Socks | white






www.kalas.cc





Castelli fast feet aero socks (as worn by Tom Pidcock)





__





Shoe Covers Cycling Men FAST FEET SOCK - Castelli Cycling


For road racing or when you can't wear a Fast Feet TT Shoecover, this sock saves watts.




www.castelli-cycling.com


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

chomxxo said:


> But you make it sound like Trek doesn't know what they're doing, lol. The Supercaliber is the bike that the traditionalists wanted and it hasn't proven itself.
> 
> It's unfortunate that analytics is pretty unfounded in World Cup racing, thus some (especially older racers) clinging to deflection-heavy setups that leave no room for error, even when athletes are giving it full gas.


Please explain exactly how a bike proves itself. Can't wait to hear this.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> What are you basing your assessment of the super caliber in World Cup competition on?
> 
> Is it Neff? Did you know that in 2019 she had the second highest number of podiums at UCI a races in her career. Only 2014, when she was racing on 27.5 wheels was better.
> 
> mtbdata is an awesome sit for race stats btw


Bikes just 5-6 years ago were different, as we've covered more times than I can count. I'm sure she walked all over the U23 competition.

Jolanda Neff is a great example, yes. We all know the Swiss can really ride--they even have their own skills training center. Counting her offseason injury at Pisgah stateside, I'd blame the Supercaliber for at least two critical injuries to my gal Jolanda, and that's not cool.









Nerd Alert Podcast: Preventing mechanicals with pro wrench Brad Copeland - CyclingTips


A deep dive into preventing ride or race-ending mechanicals and how to deal with them when things do go wrong.




cyclingtips.com





Here's a great recent podcast with Brad Copeland, mechanic for the Scott team and formerly Specialized. I always thought of him as a hipster but he really knows his work and I like his attention to detail. Among many interesting details, he mentions the conversations that the team has about equipment choice: the "theoretical" advantage a lighter hardtail might have over one lap vs how well you'll be riding after six laps. Beyond all that I'd also like to point out that this decision is still made based upon the team's mutual, professional opinions.

While that debate rages on among some smaller teams and online forums, I'd like to point out that the Swiss and French are using modern-geometry full suspension bikes the most (see Flueckiger's insightful cockpit change I noted above on the same model, small market bike, even).

Copeland also mentions that tenny little Kate Courtney is full-time on 2.4 EXO tires (albeit 170tpi), wide rims, and dropper post. He mentions that this was a Scott team strategy to go with durability and stability over weight weenieism--he directly mentions that they never use the lightest version of Maxxis tires anymore.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Chommox how can you call her "your gal" when you don't even give her credit for winning an Elite World Cup title. In 2014 Jolanda was at her absolute peak, the only girls to beat her and not very regularly were Pauline and Catharine. BTW those three were the only ones racing 27.5 wheels. Jolanda switched to 29er the next season and has never had same hit rate since. 

Sort like Nino's substantial drop in win rate since he made the switch.
Just to back up that last statement with some facts: 
-2012-2015: 27.5 win rate 74% 
-2016-Present: 29er win rate 45%

If we are going to base things off one rider looks to me like when it comes to race performance light weight beats durability and stability.

The Scotts teams struggles this year has teams questioning the trend to heavy, reliable bikes, that are easy and fun to ride. Maybe "Fun is Fast" should actually read "Fast is as scary as F#$K"


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Counting her offseason injury at Pisgah stateside, I'd blame the Supercaliber for at least two critical injuries to my gal Jolanda, and that's not cool.


She completely misjudged the corner at high speed. Wouldn't have mattered what the bike was.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

LMN said:


> Did anybody else notice how stiff she runs her front suspension? I was watching the replay today and noted that well into the race she had only used half of her front wheel travel. I took a look at the travel marker at the end and more had been used. But she was no where near full travel.
> 
> Girls put so much less force through their forks, even ones who descend really fast. It seems they use their legs a lot more than guys to generate force when descending.


Is it not at least partially that women have a different weight distribution with less weight in the upper body?

For someone as light as Leona (45-48kg?) I think it can be difficult to set up the fork properly, the air spring is not really optimized for that weight range for many brands.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Skier78 said:


> Is it not at least partially that women have a different weight distribution with less weight in the upper body?
> 
> For someone as light as Leona (45-48kg?) I think it can be difficult to set up the fork properly, the air spring is not really optimized for that weight range for many brands.


I think that is part of it. I coach ALN (Andréane Lanthier Nadeau), we are just about the same size and weight and she is quicker than me downhill but her fork set-up is too soft for me.

Leona should have the light weight rider tune in that fork. Catharine's forks are all tuned for her weight.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

As WR said, spoke soldering is there to prevent broken or torn out of hub/rim spokes creating a mess (rider distraction at least) and possibly damaging the fork, other spokes or tearing the tubeless rim tape. I've completed a few races with a broken spoke, had to stop to tie the broken one around healthy ones while wheel was ok to ride.

Very much like the thread so far.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Goran_injo said:


> As WR said, spoke soldering is there to prevent broken or torn out of hub/rim spokes creating a mess (rider distraction at least) and possibly damaging the fork, other spokes or tearing the tubeless rim tape. I've completed a few races with a broken spoke, had to stop to tie the broken one around healthy ones while wheel was ok to ride.
> 
> Very much like the thread so far.


Not arguing, but asking: is this a real problem for someone like Leona? I get it being a concern for someone like MvDP, but she's tiny. Even a MAX power, she can't be putting down that many watts.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

smartyiak said:


> Not arguing, but asking: is this a real problem for someone like Leona? I get it being a concern for someone like MvDP, but she's tiny. Even a MAX power, she can't be putting down that many watts.


I am not sure it is about broken spokes. Broken spokes are pretty darn rare nowadays. I have a set of 4 year old high milage wheels that are just starting to have the aluminum nipples fail. But wheels as old and well used as these would never see the start line of a world cup.

Might be about noise. Maybe they run pretty low spoke tension and spokes make noise when they move against each other.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

broken spokes happen to anyone. I'll bet her wheels are built with light gauge spokes as well, something like the DT Revolution to keep the weight as low as possible. Soldering the spokes probaby helps to stiffen the wheel (maybe a placibo) but it will stop a broken spoke ruining a race


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

My spoke broke on a 2nd lap of an xco race - a 28h DT Swiss carbon wheel, less than 6mths old. I was 67kg on 187cm at the time. Straight pull revo spokes, on a rocky descent. Front wheel, but stiff as hell, I managed to finish the race with no issues and a bit of an untrue wheel. I had to stop to tie the spoke to other ones as it was really distracting me.

Another on a xcm, but that doesn't count as those trails aren't race groomed so it could have been a branch. Tied it again though.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> She completely misjudged the corner at high speed. Wouldn't have mattered what the bike was.


My point exactly, the first part at least. Best lady in the world at XC bike handling misses a corner and gets hurt.

It is not a good idea to race bikes that require you to be on top of your skills at all times. No argument that these folks are the best, but if they're giving their best, just like you or me, they're going to be at their physical limit and need a bike they can step off from in a crash. This is much more likely if you're not liable to be pitched over the bars.



LMN said:


> Chomxxo how can you call her "your gal" when you don't even give her credit for winning an Elite World Cup title. In 2014 Jolanda was at her absolute peak, the only girls to beat her and not very regularly were Pauline and Catharine. BTW those three were the only ones racing 27.5 wheels. Jolanda switched to 29er the next season and has never had same hit rate since.
> 
> Sort like Nino's substantial drop in win rate since he made the switch.
> Just to back up that last statement with some facts:
> ...


What am I gonna do with you, Mr. LMN?

Jolanda won the world cup in 2016 and 2018.

2017 was a "Perfect Season" for Nino. He won every single race of the World Cup, plus the World Championship race. It was also the first season that Nino won the Cape Epic.

There is no denying that a lighter bike goes faster uphill, that is indisputable. It's also a fact that a heavier bike goes faster downhill, something we rarely talk about. However it is a unhealthy superstition that terrible-handling bikes have to be heavier, or that a safer bike is slower. A modern geometry 27.5 hardtail could be built just as light as your golden era bikes and it would blow right past a twitchy old bike that had to pick its way through a rock garden, with zero penalty uphill (other than the slower wheels). I'll double down on the reminder that both crashing and flatting are quite slow.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Why would a heavier bike, by design, go faster on a downhill? 

That is nonsense. This isn't straight line 9.81. You have to both handle the bike, accelerate it out of corners and brake it.

If this was true, DH bikes would be 100kg and winning it, and they are made to be lightest possible setups to both function and endure.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> My point exactly, the first part at least. Best lady in the world at XC bike handling misses a corner and gets hurt.
> 
> It is not a good idea to race bikes that require you to be on top of your skills at all times. No argument that these folks are the best, but if they're giving their best, just like you or me, they're going to be at their physical limit and need a bike they can step off from in a crash. This is much more likely if you're not liable to be pitched over the bars.
> 
> ...


Serious question here. Do you actually ride bikes?

Everybody who rides fast crashes. Every single rider, regardless of their bike. I can't believe I am actually having to state this. Seriously wake up man and you use your brain. You should be able to see gaping whole in that logic.

Jolanda won in 2014, 2015, and 2018, BTW. Again, if you going to call someone "your gal" you better get your facts straight.

You seem to think that I am against modern geometry. I am not at all, quite the opposite. Actually, I have way more experience with it than you do, but I think most people have more experience than you. But because I actually have experience I know that in fact the gains from it are marginal at best. I also know that there is such a thing as too long and too slack when it comes to XC.

Here is the thing, I get where you are coming from. When I see a picture of you on your bike, I think "that bike is too small for him, particularly if he is going to run a stem that short". But that isn't a function of geometry, that is a function of the bikes for big riders are just too small. But just because a bike is too small for you, it doesn't mean that they are too small for an average rider.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Do you think we can all use her actual name *Loana* instead of repeatedly referring to her by the made-up name "Leona"? lol. I mean she is currently the best female practitioner of this sport we all love and follow, and by far the most dominant rider of either gender. I think that earns her the respect of getting her name right.

Let's all do this together. Low-Ah-Nah

Just sayin' 



Skier78 said:


> For someone as light as Leona





LMN said:


> Leona should have the light weight rider tune in that fork.





smartyiak said:


> is this a real problem for someone like Leona?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Circlip said:


> Do you think we can all use her actual name *Loana* instead of repeatedly referring to her by the made-up name "Leona"? lol. I mean she is currently the best female practitioner of this sport we all love and follow, and by far the most dominant rider of either gender. I think that earns her the respect of getting her name right.
> 
> Let's all do this together. Low-Ah-Nah
> 
> Just sayin'


*Touché!*


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

LMN said:


> *Touché!*


Thank you. For an encore, I recommend everyone should also set aside a spare minute to say "Maja Włoszczowska" 10 times as quickly as possible with a mouth full of food.

Skillz people, skillz...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Circlip said:


> Thank you. For an encore, I recommend everyone should also set aside a spare minute to say "Maja Włoszczowska" 10 times as quickly as possible with a mouth full of food.
> 
> Skillz people, skillz...


My mother in law can do that, with a mouth full of uszka and beet soup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Circlip said:


> Thank you. For an encore, I recommend everyone should also set aside a spare minute to say "Maja Włoszczowska" 10 times as quickly as possible with a mouth full of food.
> 
> Skillz people, skillz...


The only I do better than misspelling words is mangling peoples names.

Maja's mom make the best little outfit for my daughter. Really want to post a picture of that it but can't steal my wife's thunder on that one.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Back to bikes.

Wide rims. What is everybody's thoughts on them nowadays. I have a set of RaceFace Next SL in 26mm and DT Swiss 1200s in 30mm. Weight is similar but honestly, I am liking the RaceFace wheels a bit more. Not sure if it is stiffness or the width, or the width makes them stiff but I find the 1200s harsh.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Circlip said:


> Thank you. For an encore, I recommend everyone should also set aside a spare minute to say "Maja Włoszczowska" 10 times as quickly as possible with a mouth full of food.
> 
> Skillz people, skillz...


I've given up trying to spell her family name. At one point I referred to her as Maya Consonants (Włoszczowska) or Maya yumyum
Then I figured out a way to remember how to spell her last name

W-los-zcz-owska. 
Much easier now.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Back to bikes.
> 
> Wide rims. What is everybody's thoughts on them nowadays. I have a set of RaceFace Next SL in 26mm and DT Swiss 1200s in 30mm. Weight is similar but honestly, I am liking the RaceFace wheels a bit more. Not sure if it is stiffness or the width, or the width makes them stiff but I find the 1200s harsh.


I've gone back to the Hollowgram 23mm internal width wheels that came with my bike. The 29mm IW wheels I have don't seem to play nicely with 2.35 with tyres like Pirelli scorpion R in 2.4 or Vittoria mezcal 2.35. The tyres just seem more edgey. Even on the Hollowgram wheels the 2.4 feels better so I've sold the wheels (light bicycle rims with DT 240 s rear hub). I tried a set of zero2 wheels from my local cannondale distributor and these felt great. They're 26mm IW and seem to work well with my preferred tyres. The build is also decently stiff using Sapim CX Ray spokes so I'll go for those.

I tried wider rims about 5 years back with American Classic wide lightning wheels. Same issue. I needed at least a 2.4 for the wheels to feel like I wanted. Running much lower pressures helped but then rim strikes became the problem. The trails around here are very rocky laced with big stones and lose gravel. Predictable grip is a must for me


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Weird about the Race Face vs DT Swiss 1200s and harshness. Back in the before times when people used aluminum/aluminium rims, while keeping the weight the same, to make a rim wider you have to reduce the profile or make the walls thinner, which you would think would make them more flexible. But with carbon, I guess you can go wider and keep the weight the same by being more brittle (which probably would also feel harsher).
I actually got a good deal on some narrower Stans Valor rims and saved enough weight over my wider aluminum rims to install Pepis Rokline noodles (~100 gm with valve) and still be lighter than before. But with the noodle filling up most of the lateral space in the tire and locking the beads to the rim, I find there is lots of lateral support even at low pressures, so best of both worlds (at least for me).


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I gave up on carbon rims, at least on as a front wheel. Wheel is too stiff, tire deflects, I just could not adapt to the feeling. It may be due to early versions of carbon rims that were narrower and stiffer, or my weight, but still. 

After years of back and forth, for xc settled in for 24mm rims with inserts, they support 2.4 tires just fine.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> I gave up on carbon rims, at least on as a front wheel. Wheel is too stiff, tire deflects, I just could not adapt to the feeling. It may be due to early versions of carbon rims that were narrower and stiffer, or my weight, but still.
> 
> After years of back and forth, for xc settled in for 24mm rims with inserts, they support 2.4 tires just fine.


try a lighter gauge of spoke on the front wheel this will help with compliance


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Back to bikes.
> 
> Wide rims. What is everybody's thoughts on them nowadays. I have a set of RaceFace Next SL in 26mm and DT Swiss 1200s in 30mm. Weight is similar but honestly, I am liking the RaceFace wheels a bit more. Not sure if it is stiffness or the width, or the width makes them stiff but I find the 1200s harsh.


What's the rim depth? Not sure why but mtb wheels jumped on the 30mm rim depth in carbon. They are slowly coming down tho now and need to get to a more box section.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> Not arguing, but asking: is this a real problem for someone like Leona? I get it being a concern for someone like MvDP, but she's tiny. Even a MAX power, she can't be putting down that many watts.





LMN said:


> I am not sure it is about broken spokes. Broken spokes are pretty darn rare nowadays. I have a set of 4 year old high milage wheels that are just starting to have the aluminum nipples fail. But wheels as old and well used as these would never see the start line of a world cup.
> 
> Might be about noise. Maybe they run pretty low spoke tension and spokes make noise when they move against each other.


Tied and soldered spokes is a properly old school wheel building technique. It was first introduced when wheel rims were made of wood and the spokes were very long and fragile. The reasons were originally for increased wheel stiffness and also to stop flapping spokes when they frequently broke which was a lot more often than nowadays.

This picture is of a 1889 track racing Penny Farthing with a 58" size front wheel. The spokes on this bike are tied and soldered. It still looks fast!









racing penny farthing – Vintage Bicycle Blog


Posts about racing penny farthing written by oldbicycle




vintagebicycle.wordpress.com























The practice was kept going ever since then, being popular on track racing bikes and for sprinters on the road. This 1955 Omelenchuk track bike being a good vintage example as it shows the tied and soldered spokes on the rear wheel.





__





bikecult.com > bikeworks nyc > archive bicycles > omelenchuk track






www.bikecult.com





Even back in the 1980s I can remember that there were increasing comments that it wasn't really required anymore as the rims and spokes at that time were durable enough. That's even more true now in 2021 with super stiff carbon fibre rims and improved spokes that don't break often.

When it comes to modern XC race bikes the aim for the mechanic is to ensure that the bike is as reliable as possible. If the bike breaks and the athlete loses out as a result it's on them. It's unlikely that a spoke is going to break in a modern wheel but it certainly isn't impossible. Although a tied and soldered wheel adds a bit of weight it could also potentially keep the rider in the race which is why it hasn't gone away despite being such an old method.

There are some other examples like this Jolanda Neff bike from 2015 with carbon ties for the spokes (lighter than tie and solder but achieving the same thing) and also Julien Absalon's bikes. 









Nove Mesto World Cup XC, Pro Bike Check: Neff Wins on new Stöckli Beryll RSC


At just 22 years old Jolanda Neff, the current U23 cross country women’s world champ, took on the elite women in the first round of the World Cup. Within the first lap aboard the Beryll RSC hardtail from her new Swiss bike sponsor Stöckli, she began setting a pace that ultimately only 42 year...




bikerumor.com


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## TwincamRob (Sep 20, 2014)

Makes me want to bring back twist lacing from my bmx days. Could be a goldmine in the industry with the right marketing 🤣


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

WR304 said:


> Tied and soldered spokes is a properly old school wheel building technique. It was first introduced when wheel rims were made of wood and the spokes were very long and fragile. The reasons were originally for increased wheel stiffness and also to stop flapping spokes when they frequently broke which was a lot more often than nowadays.
> 
> This picture is of a 1889 track racing Penny Farthing with a 58" size front wheel. The spokes on this bike are tied and soldered.


Never mind the wc racers...look at thru axle on that 130y old wheel!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> Serious question here. Do you actually ride bikes?
> 
> Everybody who rides fast crashes. Every single rider, regardless of their bike. I can't believe I am actually having to state this. Seriously wake up man and you use your brain. You should be able to see gaping whole in that logic.
> 
> ...


We need to quash this, I just don't have the time for it. You're way off base, but I need to apologize to you for calling you a fraud a couple of years ago. That was way off base for me.

Just finished a dual heat short track race mid-pack in the second round. And it was indeed hot today 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> I gave up on carbon rims, at least on as a front wheel. Wheel is too stiff, tire deflects, I just could not adapt to the feeling. It may be due to early versions of carbon rims that were narrower and stiffer, or my weight, but still.
> 
> After years of back and forth, for xc settled in for 24mm rims with inserts, they support 2.4 tires just fine.


Try Berd spokes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> Why would a heavier bike, by design, go faster on a downhill?
> 
> That is nonsense. This isn't straight line 9.81. You have to both handle the bike, accelerate it out of corners and brake it.
> 
> If this was true, DH bikes would be 100kg and winning it, and they are made to be lightest possible setups to both function and endure.


Actually it is true.





__





Does a heavier person go downhill on a bicycle faster than a lighter person? | Socratic


In the absence of Aerodynamic Drag, the answer would be no, they will accelerate at the same rate down the incline. However, considering we do have this air stuff all around us that we require to breathe, the heavier person will accelerate faster down the hill and therefore end up taking less...




socratic.org





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> We need to quash this, I just don't have the time for it. You're way off base, but I need to apologize to you for calling you a fraud a couple of years ago. That was way off base for me.
> 
> Just finished a dual heat short track race mid-pack in the second round. And it was indeed hot today
> 
> ...





chomxxo said:


> We need to quash this, I just don't have the time for it. You're way off base, but I need to apologize to you for calling you a fraud a couple of years ago. That was way off base for me.
> 
> Just finished a dual heat short track race mid-pack in the second round. And it was indeed hot today
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Done.

Can't believe you are racing in the heat you guys are having. I would be a solid "I will set this one out". Know what I said about it doesn't get hot in Europe to prep for the Toyko? I was wrong, finished a ride yesterday some where around Tom Pidcock weight.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

And after I stated mountain bike dh isn't a straight line 9.81, you are linking to a straight line 9.81 lecture. 

Did you incorporate uneven surface, turns, obstacles, non perfect surfaces and non perfect surface tires in, as well as xx amount of other off road course racing factors in your (link to) equation? And this is a real equation, one you can work with.

Of course not. In an ideal setting (physics definition of ideal, perfect surface "road" bike with ideal straight line no turns and no braking/acceleration the equation is correct, otherwise, it is not applicable). 

If your statement was true for off road dh racing, we would see it on races, dh bikes would be 50 or 100 kilos as they are lifted up. 
And they are not. They are as light as possible.

We don't even have to go to xc bikes.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> They are as light as possible.


They are as light as possible for meeting the requirements of function and durability relative to the event type. This more complete statement allows it to be applied universally to all disciplines of cycling regardless of whether it's DH, XC or anything between. I know this is what you meant, and this is generally understood by almost any competitor or enthusiast.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> Done.
> 
> Can't believe you are racing in the heat you guys are having. I would be a solid "I will set this one out". Know what I said about it doesn't get hot in Europe to prep for the Toyko? I was wrong, finished a ride yesterday some where around Tom Pidcock weight.


Now all you have to do is figure out how to finish with his ftp 😉


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Moment of inertia.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Circlip said:


> They are as light as possible for meeting the requirements of function and durability relative to the event type. This more complete statement allows it to be applied universally to all disciplines of cycling regardless of whether it's DH, XC or anything between. I know this is what you meant, and this is generally understood by almost any competitor or enthusiast.


Yep, I entered it with this disclaimer few posts above. Can't comprehend why we're even discussing this, probably because if there is no reaction to wrong statements/posts, they become facts.

Just finished of an xco race a 35 celsious, 12h start. Managed to get a new max and avg HR record, at 41y old. There is no equipment to help here.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> Yep, I entered it with this disclaimer few posts above. Can't comprehend why we're even discussing this, probably because if there is no reaction to wrong statements/posts, they become facts.
> 
> Just finished of an xco race a 35 celsious, 12h start. Managed to get a new max and avg HR record, at 41y old. There is no equipment to help here.


I've been accurate in everything I've said, and I'm sorry but you're incorrect again.

This is nothing personal. It's good to be competitive but I believe a lot of you guys would be better off expending those watts outside. Let's try harder to exchange information positively.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Actually it is true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





chomxxo said:


> I've been accurate in everything I've said, and I'm sorry but you're incorrect again.
> 
> This is nothing personal. It's good to be competitive but I believe a lot of you guys would be better off expending those watts outside. Let's try harder to exchange information positively.
> 
> ...


Counter point.

I have a 27lb 140 trail bike and it is consistencely faster downhill than my 38lb Levo SL. That is even with a more capable fork and gripper tires on Levo. The difference is small but the extra weight of the Levo is really felt stopping and turning.

I also believe that E EWS speeds are always significantly off pedal power EWS. I would have to verify that though.

But this should be easy to test. Do a descent with two full bottles. Repeat the descent without them on your bike. Which is faster?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Guys the test was run with the eBike battery turned off.

I think there’s also a general correlation in DH/XC to big/small riders. There are exceptions, Danny Hart/Jaroslav Kulhavy, but in addition to all his skills, a guy like Greg Minaar brings an ability to wrangle a bigger, heavier bike, and his heavier self downhill, so he’s carrying that advantage with him.

Marginal gains yes, but in XCO a dominating win is only 1 minutes, or 2 seconds in DH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

you guys realise he's just trolling right?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I didn't realize the "test" was done with the motor off. 

I trust world class athletes choices, that are searching for any marginal gain to get a win or an advantage more than a GCN "test". 

I have yet to see a DH bike impregnated with a 20 kilo lead or concrete tube for an advantage. 

And it is very, very easy to get that advantage. No engineering, just add weight.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

its very obvious why DH bikes don't have weight bolted to them, because the chop is wrong and doesn't have a grasp of physics.
Take a hollow cylinder and a solid cyclinder and allow them to roll down a smooth surface and see which one wins.
Those who understand Engineering physics will know the answer. The clue is in a previous post.

the e-bike won because it was pedalled harder. motor on or off it doesn't matter. It had more work put into it. Its as simple as that


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> Jolanda Neff is a great example, yes. We all know the Swiss can really ride--they even have their own skills training center. Counting her offseason injury at Pisgah stateside, I'd blame the Supercaliber for at least two critical injuries to my gal Jolanda, and that's not cool.


Actually, if you look at the video of Jolanda wiping out in Pisgah, she was running really skinny tires. Pretty clearly an XC bike with skinny tires is not the right bike for that trail, but I assume she rides that combo to train herself for XC race conditions. ANY XC bike with skinny tires is dangerous on that trail, at that speed.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Brad said:


> Well I don't think its a terrible design at all. With the current XCO format of selecting the bike for the weekend before the XCC, its sort of makes sense to have a tweener bike. Its not the type of bike I'd select though since it misses a few tricks but I can see why it will appeal to a higher W'/kg rider.
> 
> There's no science that proves any geometry works better than another unless you believe PinkBike does science ( no I didn't think so ). We can go beack 30 years and find bikes that had longer reach, shorter chain stays etc etc and not one has given its rider a significant advantage.The biggest gains came from sports science relating to human performance, suspension and reliable gearing, and clipless pedals.


Science is a method. Anybody can do science. The problem here is not that PinkBike (or anybody else in the bike industry) is unqualified to do science, it is that it is very hard to run good experiments to test geometry in the real world. But I will say that PinkBike is good at doing something that I don't see often in the bike world, which is to set your variables at the extreme ends of the range to see what the effects are. Ideally you would change one parameter at a time while holding others constant (where possible), but sometimes it is worth pushing everything to the extreme at once, just to see what will happen.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-grim-donut-part-2-the-right-amount-of-stupid.html


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Niko mulally did a test on his Intense with moving weight around to see what would happen.






Evolution Training Cycles


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

paramount3 said:


> ANY XC bike with skinny tires is dangerous on that trail, at that speed.


She misjudged a blind feature of a turn and jumped towards where she thought the trail was going (left), didn't realize the trail hooked right after the jump before it turned left. It was rider error on one of Pisgah's least-technical XC trails. No amount of tire is going to give you traction in air...if you leave the trail in Pisgah and come back down where there is no trail, the terrain is going to punish you.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

What trail in pisgah did she crash on?

Evolution Training Cycles


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Sycamore.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Back to equipment...

Last week I broke my two wheelsets on straight days!!! Well, king of...

First ride after a suspension overhaul was an easy one, but something got between my rear wheel and broke a spoke at the J-Bend (stock No Tubes Crest CB7). Rode back home 20min with just a bit out of true. Next day, testing the legs up and down on a steep rocky climb, hit rock bombing the descent and craked the rear rim of the second wheelset (Crest CB7 rims with DT 240's and Sapim Laser spokes). This is the first tie ever I've broken a rim, and it was a careless mistake on my part as I should have chosen a cleaner line. 

Now, do I need wider rims? Stiffer wheels? Better spokes? I honestly don't know. I have never tested a wider rim than 23mm IW, and to be honest, I don't feel the need to spend the extra $$$ it would cost to replace what I have.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

rupps5 said:


> Niko mulally did a test on his Intense with moving weight around to see what would happen.


Momentum is king.
Inertia however, is a bastard.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Agreed, the Grim Donut is some prime-grade mad science that produced some startling Frankenstein results.

Here's another interesting test, Maxxis Ikon 2.0 vs 2.35s uphill -- which is faster? Little guy testing them too, and the wider tire wins.





It's the advent of Sports analytics in XCO racing.

I'd say DH is much-matured in this, 10-20 years ahead, but we're getting there fast now 

I'm a fan of basketball too--guys that dwarf me with feet like a ballerina. Since the very beginning of the NBA, it was all about the biggest man pounding it into the basket, until analytics got involved, just as it had decades prior in baseball. The 3-point shot is worth 50% more so the game has been re-invented around it.

See the Brad Pitt movie: "Moneyball" about analytics showing that just getting on base wins major-league baseball games.

Sometimes we can feel outraged at conventional wisdom being challenged in MTB racing, but, humbly speaking, that's just part of how you try to get a little better than the previous generation.



paramount3 said:


> Science is a method. Anybody can do science. The problem here is not that PinkBike (or anybody else in the bike industry) is unqualified to do science, it is that it is very hard to run good experiments to test geometry in the real world. But I will say that PinkBike is good at doing something that I don't see often in the bike world, which is to set your variables at the extreme ends of the range to see what the effects are. Ideally you would change one parameter at a time while holding others constant (where possible), but sometimes it is worth pushing everything to the extreme at once, just to see what will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-grim-donut-part-2-the-right-amount-of-stupid.html


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Agreed, the Grim Donut is some prime-grade mad science that produced some startling Frankenstein results.
> 
> Here's another interesting test, Maxxis Ikon 2.0 vs 2.35s uphill -- which is faster? Little guy testing them too, and the wider tire wins.
> 
> ...


Respectively, but I think you are reaching to say these are conclusive results. I think you are reading these test with a horse in the game so to speak. And let us be honest here, 2.0 tires suck, nobody wants them to be the fastest around an XC course.

When I look at the three test he did I only see one in which indicates that 2.35 is faster, the roll down test.
In the climbing tests the time difference is too tight, to say with any confidence one is faster or slower. For the overall lap time you can't really tell, and to be honest as someone who has spend the last 15 years analyzing power files, I would expect an extra 10 watts to produce a bigger time difference.

But even if his results were solid, all it shows is show results on that day in those testing conditions.

Good MTB testing is super hard to do. Let us consider the roll down test he did. His timing method has a source of error but I think his results are outside that source. What are his other possible sources of error then.
1. Environmental. Maybe the wind changed a bit between test sessions. Not a lot, not even really noticeable but a 1.0m/s headwind or tail wind will have a significant impact on rolling speed.
2. Did he control for sweat loss. If you are out riding it is pretty normal to sweat around a 1L per hour, that is 1kg of water loss. As you stated earlier a lighter bike-rider combo cost slower.

Not to toot my own horn but honestly there are probably less than half dozen people in North America who have spent as much time doing controlled bike testing as myself. It is an extremely difficult and frustrating experience. You spend a day doing a test session and think that you are seeing something. The next day you go out and replicated it and you see the opposite.

This where I struggle with absolute statements about bike performance. When someone says wheel size A is faster than wheel size B, I struggle with that statement. I actually tested it a lot and didn't get any consistent results. Same is true with geometry, when a test a modern XC bike and compare it to an older one (last 5 years) I am not getting a speed difference or at least a consistent speed difference.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Respectively, but I think you are reaching to say these are conclusive results. I think you are reading these test with a horse in the game so to speak. And let us be honest here, 2.0 tires suck, nobody wants them to be the fastest around an XC course.
> 
> When I look at the three test he did I only see one in which indicates that 2.35 is faster, the roll down test.
> In the climbing tests the time difference is too tight, to say with any confidence one is faster or slower. For the overall lap time you can't really tell, and to be honest as someone who has spend the last 15 years analyzing power files, I would expect an extra 10 watts to produce a bigger time difference.
> ...


I spent a few yrs testing 26 vs 29 when 29 was first becoming popular. I was riding loops that I had ridden for yrs, knew what my times were and had yrs of data. 29 was no faster than 26, anybody saying bike A is faster than bike B is crazy.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> It is an extremely difficult and frustrating experience. You spend a day doing a test session and think that you are seeing something. The next day you go out and replicated it and you see the opposite.


Doing good science is a huge pain in the arse. I've yet to see a GMBN or Pinkbike "study" that even comes close to a controlled study that tells us anything.

I don't know how many times I've thought I was seeing an effect just to see it reverse the next day. And my field is way easier to control for than asking whether a small geo tweak is better/worse in real conditions.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Data analytics is interesting. It's not science in the classical sense because you are not controlling for anything. You are just looking for useful correlations and predictors. It's basically taking a ton of data and throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm sure a lot of these predictors find their way to the trash bin because they end up not being successful. But we only hear about the successes. 

And people who use data analytics are not immune to group think. Last year, the Lakers won with a team that went against the mantra that you have to build a team around the 3 pointer. They basically pounded opponents to death because the other teams no longer had an answer for all their big men. 

I'm not saying data analytics is not useful but it has to be used carefully and combined with experience, judgment, and constant innovation. Late adopters will always be exploited by first adopters no matter what tools they are using.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> I spent a few yrs testing 26 vs 29 when 29 was first becoming popular. I was riding loops that I had ridden for yrs, knew what my times were and had yrs of data. 29 was no faster than 26, anybody saying bike A is faster than bike B is crazy.


I think it was winter 2013 that I had three identical Alma's, one 26, one 27.5, one 29er. We did a lot of testing and were never really able to get any results that indicated which was faster. There was always variation in speed and watts but there was no consistency to it. And that testing was over multiple days with multiple riders.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

LMN said:


> And let us be honest here, 2.0 tires suck,* nobody wants them to be the fastest* around an XC course.


Based on this how people in cycling industry (and media) are testing things, I guess that's exactly the point and also whole issue with "best things". With today's technology it would be at least somehow easy to do at least somehow scientific and repeatable test, but pretty much everything I see is in range "let's make test so that results will show what I want them to show". And this "nobody wants them to be fastest" describes that perfectly


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Respectively, but I think you are reaching to say these are conclusive results. I think you are reading these test with a horse in the game so to speak. And let us be honest here, 2.0 tires suck, nobody wants them to be the fastest around an XC course.
> 
> When I look at the three test he did I only see one in which indicates that 2.35 is faster, the roll down test.
> In the climbing tests the time difference is too tight, to say with any confidence one is faster or slower. For the overall lap time you can't really tell, and to be honest as someone who has spend the last 15 years analyzing power files, I would expect an extra 10 watts to produce a bigger time difference.
> ...


Ditto, it is incredibly hard to quantify differences in equipment performance, well except for SRAM XX1 Eagle that stuff just outlasts everything else by a factor of 3.
I could not find a significant speed difference between 29, 27.5 and 26er wheels. On some courses my old 2008 Scalpel was quicker than my 2018 Scalpel, on others my 2015 Giant Anthem was faster. In none of the cases was the slowest significantly slower and its lac of pace had more to do with time of day of the run and where in the sequence the run featured. How the bike fits makes a bigger difference to performance. That I have solved conclusively



peabody said:


> I spent a few yrs testing 26 vs 29 when 29 was first becoming popular. I was riding loops that I had ridden for yrs, knew what my times were and had yrs of data. 29 was no faster than 26, anybody saying bike A is faster than bike B is crazy.


Amen


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

meschenbruch said:


> 'vibration damping stickers', just placebo enhancements???
> 
> There were a couple of comments from Kate's mechanic on this bike check which are... curious...
> 
> ...


Those Axxios magical damping stickers have been around for a while now. Oddly enough they don't seem to have caught on outside of on sponsored riders bikes.

They sponsor the Scott Sram team, Absolut Absalon team, Commencal team etc









Bike | Axxios Technology


Axxios a pour vocation d’apporter une solution innovante face à la problématique des champs vibratoires nuisibles. Le but est d’améliorer la compétitivité, soit-elle dans les domaines industriels, de production, dans le monde automobile ou sportif.




axxios-tech.com





This article from 2016 has some closeup pictures:









original_TR_2163.jpg


Thibaut Ruffin asked us to come check out some new tech on the Commencal DH bikes. We're not entirely clear on how it's supposed to work, but it's a circuit of some kind (not a counterweight) that takes information from the surface it's mounted to and reduces vibrations. Commencal is running...




www.vitalmtb.com





The paid testimonials promise outstanding performance no matter where you stick them on the bike. 

_" This is how it feels:_

_Converters on the handlebars: less stress on the hands and ankles_
_Converters on the frame: the bike is more stable and stiffer in some places, which makes it more efficient_
_Converters on the wheels and tyres: the lines are better held, the bike is smoother and more stable_
_Converters on the Suspension: the suspension now has a little more support with a combination of stiffness and smoothness."_
Nino Schurter - Mountain Bike Racing - SCOTT-SRAM MTB Racing Team - Switzerland

From the Kate Courtney Scott Scale pictures on that Pinkbike bike check I've highlighted where some of the stickers are applied on the bike that I could spot. There are more elsewhere too. 










I've never seen an actual review of them anywhere. Do they actually work as claimed? Very very doubtful.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

WR304 said:


> Those Axxios magical damping stickers have been around for a while now. Oddly enough they don't seem to have caught on outside of on sponsored riders bikes.
> 
> They sponsor the Scott Sram team, Absolut Absalon team, Commencal team etc
> 
> ...


You are so respectful toward this product, everyone with half a brain know its bullshit.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Agreed, the Grim Donut is some prime-grade mad science that produced some startling Frankenstein results.
> 
> Here's another interesting test, Maxxis Ikon 2.0 vs 2.35s uphill -- which is faster? Little guy testing them too, and the wider tire wins.
> 
> ...


Chomxxo, at what point does the fat tire become a negative for xc? You blanket state that fatter is better, as is usual with you. I ride 30IW rims and tried the same tires in a measured 56mm and 60mm, I felt the 60mm started too feel almost plus bike like.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> Those Axxios magical damping stickers have been around for a while now. Oddly enough they don't seem to have caught on outside of on sponsored riders bikes.
> 
> I've never seen an actual review of them anywhere. Do they actually work as claimed? Very very doubtful.


Unless they have some alien technology (I guess things from Men in black movie are really true afterall, and movie was in fact documentary), or fairy tale wizards really exists in real life to have some magical dust spilled onto these stickers, there's simply no way this can work. But I guess if you stick them to enough pro bikes, people will buy them regardless what common sense (or physics) says about such placebos.

PS: I just saw comment from Copeland under that bike review on Pinkbike, which tells enough about how much these things "work", and why they are there:
"If someone pays us a lot of money to put stickers on the bike we have no problem doing so."


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Good article on Axxios:








Mysterious Axxios Stickers Allegedly Reduce Vibrations On Bikes


We investigate some extravagant claims by Swiss company Axxios Technology, about their so-called "sensor system"




singletrackworld.com




Bottom line, in case you hadn't already made up your mind: Axxios = Total Bullshit.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

paramount3 said:


> Good article on Axxios:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was there ever any doubt? Sort of like those power bands people wore on their wrists to realign their aura.... <straight away you realise its BS >


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

TDLover said:


> You are so respectful toward this product, everyone with half a brain know its bullshit.


"Magic trick: to make people disappear ask them to fulfill their promises" Mason Cooley

(yes, I did spend ages trying to find an appropriate magic quote.? )

The real mystery is if the stickers stay on for the actual races too.

What's quite interesting is that Axxios changed their stickers from the small silver ones to those larger thick black ones that are clearly visible in photos. Those larger black stickers are going to be easily more than 1g per sticker so covering a bike in many of them will add a non trivial amount of weight. A full set of stickers could add 20g plus to the bike's overall weight.

The new style stickers stand out once it's clear what to look for. Nino Schurter has some visible on the wheels in this picture of his 2022 Scott Spark from the Leogang World Cup.

This is his main bike (shown by the silver SRAM blackbox powermeter crankset) and although they're on that particular set of wheels I couldn't see any on the frame. Using a different set of wheels raceday (or taking the stickers off beforehand) would be easy to do.





__





New Bike Day for Nino Schurter | SCOTT-SRAM MTB Racing Team







scott-sram.com














Edit: Nino Schurter Albstadt 2021 in race picture. No sign of any stickers on his Syncros Silverton SL wheels here.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Back to equipment...
> 
> Last week I broke my two wheelsets on straight days!!! Well, king of...
> 
> ...


I hate it when gear breaks. And they always seem to break in clusters.

Rims have gotten better over the past couple of years. I am seeing a lot fewer cracked carbon rims than I did 3 or 4 years ago.

Obviously you are going to need replace the cracked rim. And sorry to say this, but if one spoke has broken another will follow, and another after that..... Probably worth it to get the other wheel laced with new spokes, or just risk it.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

A little bit more about Axxios stickers, because there's a fine line between science and magic.









What Lars Forster had stuck on the frame of his Scott Spark


Some kind of stickers have been seen on certain parts of Lars Forster's Scott Spark. What are these stickers?




www.brujulabike.com





_"In fact, they also include a tiny chip with its own programming for each position in which it is placed."_ Brujulabike

It's a shame the full sticker didn't fit so it had to be cut down to size. Hopefully there was enough left of the tiny chip inside that sticker after it was cut apart that the chips programming for extra tyre grip wasn't affected too badly&#8230;


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

There are rumors that if you stick it to your arm, you are also covid-19 protected.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Possible thread derail, but although they weren't the tops in the league, the Lakers still attempted double the number of 3 pointers per game last season than they did ten years ago. They would not have been able to win without making those extra points.

"It's basically taking a ton of data and throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks"

Well that's a perfectly rude way of describing science, yes.

2.0 tires suck and yet, merely 5 years ago, they were a tire of choice for many of the older World Cup XCO racers, and 10-15 years ago, the majority of them were racing them...

"Late adopters will always be exploited by first adopters no matter what tools they are using."

And that's a rude way of describing good competition 

The kind of vitriolic responses we've been seeing in response to MTB analytics sound like they're straight out of the Oakland A's 2002 season.








tick_magnet said:


> Data analytics is interesting. It's not science in the classical sense because you are not controlling for anything. You are just looking for useful correlations and predictors. It's basically taking a ton of data and throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm sure a lot of these predictors find their way to the trash bin because they end up not being successful. But we only hear about the successes.
> 
> And people who use data analytics are not immune to group think. Last year, the Lakers won with a team that went against the mantra that you have to build a team around the 3 pointer. They basically pounded opponents to death because the other teams no longer had an answer for all their big men.
> 
> I'm not saying data analytics is not useful but it has to be used carefully and combined with experience, judgment, and constant innovation. Late adopters will always be exploited by first adopters no matter what tools they are using.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> I hate it when gear breaks. And they always seem to break in clusters.
> 
> Rims have gotten better over the past couple of years. I am seeing a lot fewer cracked carbon rims than I did 3 or 4 years ago.
> 
> Obviously you are going to need replace the cracked rim. And sorry to say this, but if one spoke has broken another will follow, and another after that..... Probably worth it to get the other wheel laced with new spokes, or just risk it.


Funny, I have the spokes and hubs to replace the current ones on that wheelset, but given the situation of the broken rim on the other wheelset, I might have to risk it. No warranty answer yet...faaakkk!!!


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I'm curious, with all the bike parts shortage around the world, how come pro teams don't seem affected? I can't get a rim replaced nor road tires on 28mm tubeless flavor, but manufacturers keep throwing equipment at sponsored teams. My guess is they have a ''Team Inventory/Stock''or whatever. It bothers me a lot to scramble around the entire planet to find something I might need...my back up bin is almost empty!!!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> I'm curious, with all the bike parts shortage around the world, how come pro teams don't seem affected? I can't get a rim replaced nor road tires on 28mm tubeless flavor, but manufacturers keep throwing equipment at sponsored teams. My guess is they have a ''Team Inventory/Stock''or whatever. It bothers me a lot to scramble around the entire planet to find something I might need...my back up bin is almost empty!!!





carlostruco said:


> I'm curious, with all the bike parts shortage around the world, how come pro teams don't seem affected? I can't get a rim replaced nor road tires on 28mm tubeless flavor, but manufacturers keep throwing equipment at sponsored teams. My guess is they have a ''Team Inventory/Stock''or whatever. It bothers me a lot to scramble around the entire planet to find something I might need...my back up bin is almost empty!!!


They are affected!!!

Parts shortages have been a huge issue this year. Most teams have enough spares around to make things work but races bikes have been pieces together with spares.

I work really hard to conserve parts and always have spares are around. It has really paid off with the significant delays in equipment.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

WR304 said:


> What's quite interesting is that Axxios changed their stickers from the small silver ones to those larger thick black ones that are clearly visible in photos. Those larger black stickers are going to be easily more than 1g per sticker so covering a bike in many of them will add a non trivial amount of weight. A full set of stickers could add 20g plus to the bike's overall weight.


I'm pretty sure weight is not an issue here. If they manage to influence physics so much with these stickers and chips, I'm pretty sure those stickers have also negative weight, so whole set of stickers probably makes bike half kilo lighter... at least half kilo if not more.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

carlostruco said:


> I'm curious, with all the bike parts shortage around the world, how come pro teams don't seem affected? I can't get a rim replaced nor road tires on 28mm tubeless flavor, but manufacturers keep throwing equipment at sponsored teams. My guess is they have a ''Team Inventory/Stock''or whatever. It bothers me a lot to scramble around the entire planet to find something I might need...my back up bin is almost empty!!!


Josh Poertner discussed this on his most recent podcast, and the road teams are definitely affected, so the offroad teams likely are affected too. I had a lol moment, when Josh said that he had to teach the mechanics how to wax a chain, instead of just sending Silca 100+ chains to prep and wax.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cal_len1 said:


> Josh Poertner discussed this on his most recent podcast, and the road teams are definitely affected, so the offroad teams likely are affected too. I had a lol moment, when Josh said that he had to teach the mechanics how to wax a chain, instead of just sending Silca 100+ chains to prep and wax.


How the teams have been affected is interesting.

Right now SRAM BBs are at a premium. The standard practice of removing seals for every race has stopped. I am sure everyone will for the olympics, but at WC everybody has the standard high friction BBs right now.

The the other one is the spring that sits between brake pads. Bulk pads come without the springs and you can't get those springs. Athletes raided their parts drawer to bring spare brake springs.

The best one I heard is one team couldn't get seat clamps. It was two weeks of panic trying to find a single but key part.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

There was a photo on PB (no...I’m not searching for it) of one bike using an XT (I think) chainring bc their usual “race ring” was unavailable. It was an XCO rider.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> How the teams have been affected is interesting.
> 
> Right now SRAM BBs are at a premium. The standard practice of removing seals for every race has stopped. I am sure everyone will for the olympics, but at WC everybody has the standard high friction BBs right now.
> 
> ...


That's why I always keep the springs and buy OEM pads. Fortunately Formula don't have this problem yet but their rotors are rare as hens teeth. I'm waiting 4monthsaalready . Using a set of SRAM rotors a pal ground flattish in his engineering workshop. Everything is on life extension


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> Possible thread derail, but although they weren't the tops in the league, the Lakers still attempted double the number of 3 pointers per game last season than they did ten years ago. They would not have been able to win without making those extra points.
> 
> "It's basically taking a ton of data and throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks"
> 
> ...


Yes, it's true that the Lakers took more 3 pointers than 10 years ago. I didn't mean to imply the game hasn't changed at all or analytics hasn't influenced the game. I was only making the point that the group think about the 3 pointers got carried away so far that a forward looking team like the lakers were able to exploit it just by reversing the trend a little bit.

And analytics takes the throwing stuff at the wall a lot further than traditional science. 
Classical science - Hypothesis->Experiment->Data-> Hypothesis test.

Analytics- No hypothesis ->just take tons of data generated not from experiments but from wherever you can get it -> use machine learning algorithm of some type to see if you can use the data to predict your outcome. Come up with hypothesis/explanations after you find your correlations and predictors.

Tony LaRussa actually commented about that time with the Oakland A's during the Money Ball era. LaRussa was not hostile to analytics because he did a lot of it with the Cardinals who led the way with innovative analytics early in the 2000s. LaRussa said there was a lot of hype in that movie and that the A's used a combination of information including analytics and scout's opinions.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

LMN said:


> How the teams have been affected is interesting.
> 
> Right now SRAM BBs are at a premium. The standard practice of removing seals for every race has stopped. I am sure everyone will for the olympics, but at WC everybody has the standard high friction BBs right now.


Didn't know about the seal mod...any Shimano mods done?

Haven't used SRAM BBs since GxP, whatever crank I use I always return to Shimano as they just work.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Removing seals = facepalm.

One puddle or dusty stretch and any “gains” achieved by removing seals are negated. And then you’re riding a bike that has a contaminated BB the rest of the race. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Removing seals = facepalm.
> 
> One puddle or dusty stretch and any "gains" achieved by removing seals are negated. And then you're riding a bike that has a contaminated BB the rest of the race.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually it is way better than what you think. I have done it many times and never really had an issue with the bearings after the race. For short term it is fine.

I know one rider who does it year around. Once a month they pull everything apart clean and re-lube. No problems. And that is on a super high mileage bike.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Brad Copeland mentions replacing grease with lightweight oil in the bottom bracket and elsewhere. It’s a short term solution for race day only to save a few watts. 

He also seems to carry more chains than Run DMC—definitely a high-wear item. 

Analytics vs pure science would be that the end result is not peer review or irrefutable fact, but winning games/races, or in the business world, making money. 

It’s startling to find out that a heavier, wider tire is faster or just as fast as a much lighter tire uphill. We know that it’s much more confidence-inspiring and faster downhill. The latest MTB analytics for XCO is starting to question those areas of the race that were ignored for the sake of weight savings.

After all, in a race with small hills or rollers, making up even a half-second gap a few times to the faster downhill rider starts to add up in the legs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo, I recall you did some tests on narrow verus wider tires, correct? And if my memory is correct, you found that the narrow tires were faster?


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Way back before the turn of the century at the BC Summer Games when there were Road Stage Races for all age categories, there was a cocky and mouthy junior that was leading GC before the final time trial the next day. The wily veterans had enough of the kid and were telling him that if he wanted to win to Time Trial, he should do what the Euro Pros did, that is to replace the grease in the bottom bracket with peanut butter. The kid didn't know if his leg was being pulled, so when the BC Coach walked into the room, the kid asked him about the peanut butter, and the coach said "yes, and if you use crunchy you can throw out the bearings".
Anyway, the kid went half way and used peanut butter with the original steel bearings, and went out next day and had the fastest time overall in the time trial.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Bikes are getting light!

Just finished prepping Catharine’s epic for a race this weekend. Put it on the scale. 21.5lb with Ikons and a dropper.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> Yes, it's true that the Lakers took more 3 pointers than 10 years ago. I didn't mean to imply the game hasn't changed at all or analytics hasn't influenced the game. I was only making the point that the group think about the 3 pointers got carried away so far that a forward looking team like the lakers were able to exploit it just by reversing the trend a little bit.
> 
> And analytics takes the throwing stuff at the wall a lot further than traditional science.
> Classical science - Hypothesis->Experiment->Data-> Hypothesis test.
> ...


sounds like science and not anecdotal serendipity


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Removing seals = facepalm.
> 
> One puddle or dusty stretch and any "gains" achieved by removing seals are negated. And then you're riding a bike that has a contaminated BB the rest of the race.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually this is not true. Through enough grease in there and you're fine for a 90min race. It won't last 100hrs for sure but that's not the point as its going to get serviced at 91min.
Bearing seals , especially the RS type found on the bearings used in our bikes are designed to keep the grease inside, not to keep the dirt out. Its the grease that's keeping the dirt out till its all squeezed out.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Brad said:


> Actually this is not true. Through enough grease in there and you're fine for a 90min race. It won't last 100hrs for sure but that's not the point as its going to get serviced at 91min.
> Bearing seals , especially the RS type found on the bearings used in our bikes are designed to keep the grease inside, not to keep the dirt out. Its the grease that's keeping the dirt out till its all squeezed out.


I certainly have no experience in BB bearings and pulling seals off, but I have more then just a bit of very similar thing with roller skis. And whole point is to remove seals AND grease. Grease is thing that makes bearings "slower". Seals don't add all that much. They add little bit, but majority of "problem" is grease. With rollers skis we did that for races only, as on the end of race, bearings that were only soaked in very thin oil with absolutely no grease, were more or less gone. And roller ski racers are done on asphalth with no mud, very little dust, and most of time no water (rain) in play. Sure bearings for roller skis are smaller and more precise then BB bearings, but considering mtb conditions (dust, mud...) I would agree with @Le Duke about this.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

primoz said:


> I certainly have no experience in BB bearings and pulling seals off, but I have more then just a bit of very similar thing with roller skis. And whole point is to remove seals AND grease. Grease is thing that makes bearings "slower". Seals don't add all that much. They add little bit, but majority of "problem" is grease. With rollers skis we did that for races only, as on the end of race, bearings that were only soaked in very thin oil with absolutely no grease, were more or less gone. And roller ski racers are done on asphalth with no mud, very little dust, and most of time no water (rain) in play. Sure bearings for roller skis are smaller and more precise then BB bearings, but considering mtb conditions (dust, mud...) I would agree with @Le Duke about this.


Yes grease does have more viscous drag than oil but only at the point where the bearing starts to move. Once the bearing is rolling this drag drops off as the grease thins out and releases oil. An oil will always have less drag but won't stay in situ. If using an oil that's high in EP additive then it should last for a 90min race.A low consistency grease will always have the lubricating edge though


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> Yes grease does have more viscous drag than oil but only at the point where the bearing starts to move. Once the bearing is rolling this drag drops off astthe grease thins out and releases oil. An oilwill always have less drag but won't stay in situ. If using an oil that's high in Ep additive thenit shouldllast ffor a 90min race.AA llow cconsistency ggrease wwill aalways hhave the lubricatingeedge though


Your keyboard has been drinking again...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

And this is why seals or removed. Or in this case very carefully trimmed.

Watch this story by j e n n j a c k s o n on Instagram before it disappears.

Jen BTW is probably the only full time bike mechanic racing world cups.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Your keyboard has been drinking again...


I don't know why my phone does that. It's highly irritating as it shows the words correctly till the post appears on the site


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> And this is why seals or removed. Or in this case very carefully trimmed.
> 
> Watch this story by j e n n j a c k s o n on Instagram before it disappears.
> 
> Jen BTW is probably the only full time bike mechanic racing world cups.


Back in the day when a BB was a set of lose balls running on precision ground axle and cup races we could achieve pretty much the same while still having the BB well sealed. Then along came the idea that maybe the bike industry must make it easier for the factories to assemble the bikes and here we are n 2021 with no real engineering standards for any part on a bicyle


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

smartyiak said:


> There was a photo on PB (no...I'm not searching for it) of one bike using an XT (I think) chainring bc their usual "race ring" was unavailable. It was an XCO rider.


There were some photos of Loana Lecomte's bike where it said she was using the XTR chainring instead of her normal Massi branded chainring due to shortages of parts:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-loana-lecomtes-winning-massi-aire-sl.html


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Kate wins first time out on the new Spark.

__
http://instagr.am/p/CQosYFgBaqF/


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

You guys never give up trying to catch me--catch me if you can 

That was Rock Razor 2.35s in the days before proper wide XC racing tires. It turned out they were indeed slower, but also weigh about 830g each, heavier than spec. They're fast for an enduro racing rear tire, but not for an XC race tire.

Most recently I've also proved that knob trimming makes tires roll faster (a trick I learned from Word Cup mechanics)



tick_magnet said:


> chomxxo, I recall you did some tests on narrow verus wider tires, correct? And if my memory is correct, you found that the narrow tires were faster?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nice setup with some positive handlebar rise. It's not too big of a bike for the Sparkle Shark!












NordieBoy said:


> Kate wins first time out on the new Spark.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CQosYFgBaqF/


We've seen it before but I think this photo points out that Nino's stem length mostly serves to compensate for his backsweep to keep from having a negative reach (which does sometimes happen in DH bikes). Looks proportionally a lot like my setup, FWIW.

Also it should be known that Nino has been riding 5" of travel for quite a while now, before the new Spark RC. It's mentioned in this article and he also says so in a Q&A video last year.








See Nino Schurter's customised 2019 Scott Spark


Nino Schurter’s personal mechanic, Yanick Gyger, talks us through Schurter’s bike, a customised Scott Spark RC 900 Carbon HMX SL.




www.redbull.com


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Nice setup with some positive handlebar rise. It's not too big of a bike for the Sparkle Shark!
> 
> View attachment 1936875
> 
> ...


actually his previous spark was 4.3" and 4.7" of travel. I haven't seen on the new 1 if they cut the fork to 4.3".

I'd also like to know how often he actually runs full open on the 3 position lockout, my guess is he's middle position the majority of the time which cuts travel.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I am not sure if it is bike set-up or Kate just being a bit out of practice after coming back from injury, but at the Swiss Cup she was really fighting her bike when ever the climbs got steep/technical. She looked like someone trying to muscle a trail bike up a steep climb. Keller, at least early in the race was really closing gaps on Kate on those sections.

If I was doing her bike fits I would certainly want test a longer and lower stem on that bike. Although I wouldn't be surprised if right now the front end is a bit higher to compensate for some strength loss from her broken arm. When Catharine broke her arm a couple of years ago that is what we did.


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## Purulento (Aug 27, 2009)

Kate's tires looked massive compared to the other bikes


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> I am not sure if it is bike set-up or Kate just being a bit out of practice after coming back from injury, but at the Swiss Cup she was really fighting her bike when ever the climbs got steep/technical. She looked like someone trying to muscle a trail bike up a steep climb. Keller, at least early in the race was really closing gaps on Kate on those sections.
> 
> If I was doing her bike fits I would certainly want test a longer and lower stem on that bike. Although I wouldn't be surprised if right now the front end is a bit higher to compensate for some strength loss from her broken arm. When Catharine broke her arm a couple of years ago that is what we did.


She's always had a high front end relative to others. She's the only person on Scott-SRAM who runs the -8 degree Fraser bar. Everyone else is -17 or -25.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Brad Copeland mentions that the Aspen 2.4s partially compensate for the super-stiff Silverton carbon-bladed rims. I'll give them this, never having to worry about truing must be nice, of course if you break one of those spokes it's a sad day.

Seems to be that a lot of racers, male or female below 5'6" (168cm) in stature tend to have the bars and saddle at level. Longer arms for taller people means you can have the same relative torso angle as those shorter racers (although the endo factor still increases) with a saddle a few inches above the bars. I've observed that a steeper seat angle on new bikes doesn't necessitate a slammed front end like it used to (there's less leverage encouraging a wheelie on steep ups).


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I am not sure if it is bike set-up or Kate just being a bit out of practice after coming back from injury, but at the Swiss Cup she was really fighting her bike when ever the climbs got steep/technical. She looked like someone trying to muscle a trail bike up a steep climb. Keller, at least early in the race was really closing gaps on Kate on those sections.
> 
> If I was doing her bike fits I would certainly want test a longer and lower stem on that bike. Although I wouldn't be surprised if right now the front end is a bit higher to compensate for some strength loss from her broken arm. When Catharine broke her arm a couple of years ago that is what we did.


When I broke my collar bone last year I did the same, shortened the stem and increased the stack by 15mm.(simply flipped the stem from its negative rise to positive + a 5mm spacer)
Went back to my regular set up a month back and m decent times tumbled again.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> She's always had a high front end relative to others. She's the only person on Scott-SRAM who runs the -8 degree Fraser bar. Everyone else is -17 or -25.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shes also the shortest rider on the team. Would be interesting to compare her set up to Erin Huck or another Scott feale rider of similar build and weight


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Brad said:


> Shes also the shortest rider on the team. Would be interesting to compare her set up to Erin Huck or another Scott feale rider of similar build and weight


The other problem is that if you want/need a shorter stem length, you HAVE to go with a -8 as opposed to a -17 or -25, which only came in 100mm and 90mm, respectively.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> The other problem is that if you want/need a shorter stem length, you HAVE to go with a -8 as opposed to a -17 or -25, which only came in 100mm and 90mm, respectively.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes very true. Limited options


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Inconvenient truth, but I don't know of a single world cup downhiller or enduro racer with their bars below the saddle. In fact Greg Minaar is known for having an unusually high stack height.

To paraphrase Ayn Rand, "you can believe in bro science, but you can't ignore the consequences of believing in bro science." 

It would make sense that a short-stem Sycros bar limits the backsweep, because otherwise you'd have a negative reach which would handle funny.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

That's why I consider total integration a big PITA. Bar/Stem combos are stiffer and lighter, but can leave you stranded in more ways than one should something happen. Same as those spokes...this is mountain biking, right? Something eventually will find its way between the spokes...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> actually his previous spark was 4.3" and 4.7" of travel. I haven't seen on the new 1 if they cut the fork to 4.3".
> 
> I'd also like to know how often he actually runs full open on the 3 position lockout, my guess is he's middle position the majority of the time which cuts travel.


He was using this set up at the 2018 Cape Epic already


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Inconvenient truth, but I don't know of a single world cup downhiller or enduro racer with their bars below the saddle. In fact Greg Minaar is known for having an unusually high stack height.
> 
> To paraphrase Ayn Rand, "you can believe in bro science, but you can't ignore the consequences of believing in bro science."
> 
> It would make sense that a short-stem Sycros bar limits the backsweep, because otherwise you'd have a negative reach which would handle funny.


 I don't know why i bother but here goes.
.

Downhiller and enduro racer race downhill. A higher bar is appropriate in keeping your head up so you see further ahead

Greg Minaar is also one of the tallest DH riders on the circuit. Amaury Pieron also runs a higher stack...funny that


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Inconvenient truth, but I don't know of a single world cup downhiller or enduro racer with their bars below the saddle. In fact Greg Minaar is known for having an unusually high stack height.


Put the bike in it's natural position and the bars are below the saddle.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Inconvenient truth, but I don't know of a single world cup downhiller or enduro racer with their bars below the saddle. In fact Greg Minaar is known for having an unusually high stack height.
> 
> To paraphrase Ayn Rand, "you can believe in bro science, but you can't ignore the consequences of believing in bro science."
> 
> It would make sense that a short-stem Sycros bar limits the backsweep, because otherwise you'd have a negative reach which would handle funny.


They also don't have to worry about pedaling vigorously uphill very much, if at all.

I regularly pass people on 160mm+ bikes on steep (20%+) sections who can't pedal them. Like, the bars are so high that the rider would be better off putting their hands on the fork crown.

So, instead of riding the most efficient machine ever created by human beings, they get off and walk them up the hill.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Brad said:


> He was using this set up at the 2018 Cape Epic already


Yeah no kidding that's why I said it.
I questioned if his fork on the new 1 is cut to 110mm&#8230;.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> They also don't have to worry about pedaling vigorously uphill very much, if at all.
> 
> I regularly pass people on 160mm+ bikes on steep (20%+) sections who can't pedal them. Like, the bars are so high that the rider would be better off putting their hands on the fork crown.
> 
> ...


The efficiency of bikes actually decreases as grade increases though. Gravity wants to pull your bike down the hill. On foot, friction at least cancels out the backward force.

Aside from that, I agree with you. In fact, I regularly pass people on 160mm+ bikes, mostly because it's a very wrong bike for what the majority of people ride, up or down.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Two other attributes of DH and Enduro bikes is the longer forks and low bb still create a higher stack but on the DH bike pedaling isn't an issue so the saddle is never in a position that is efficient for pedaling. Transfer the relative positions of the saddle and bars on a DH bike to an XC bike and you will have trouble keeping the front wheel going straight on a gradient greater than 10%


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

LMN said:


> I am not sure if it is bike set-up or Kate just being a bit out of practice after coming back from injury, but at the Swiss Cup she was really fighting her bike when ever the climbs got steep/technical. She looked like someone trying to muscle a trail bike up a steep climb. Keller, at least early in the race was really closing gaps on Kate on those sections.
> 
> If I was doing her bike fits I would certainly want test a longer and lower stem on that bike. Although I wouldn't be surprised if right now the front end is a bit higher to compensate for some strength loss from her broken arm. When Catharine broke her arm a couple of years ago that is what we did.


I saw this picture on Lars Forsters instagram, the front end looks quite high on his bike as well (or it is just a really steep uphill). In general I think the new Scott spark looks quite big in most pictures, I guess it is the combination of 120mm travel and 2.4 tires and the very wide down tube that makes it look big. The geometry does not seem so extreme, but of course the longer front ends means shorter stems that they cannot have a very negative angle on, unless they have one specially made for them, Nino Schurter is on a 90mm -40 degree stem on the new bike, not sure what Lars is running here.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> Yeah no kidding that's why I said it.
> I questioned if his fork on the new 1 is cut to 110mm&#8230;.


No they haven't stepped the fork down to 110mm yet. I doubt they will since he mostly uses the bike in its mid setting anyway. He switched to the SiD Ultimate chassis in 2018 because he preferred the consistency and small bump sensitivity over the SiD SL fork he used prior. Also RS asked him to ..
A 110mm air spring is the shortest travel that the fork allows. The longer travel at the back raised the bb more effectively. The outgoing Spark has among the lowest bbs when the bike is sagged and pedal strikes were a real problem.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> I saw this picture on Lars Forsters instagram, the front end looks quite high on his bike as well (or it is just a really steep uphill). In general I think the new Scott spark looks quite big in most pictures, I guess it is the combination of 120mm travel and 2.4 tires and the very wide down tube that makes it look big. The geometry does not seem so extreme, but of course the longer front ends means shorter stems that they cannot have a very negative angle on, unless they have one specially made for them, Nino Schurter is on a 90mm -40 degree stem on the new bike, not sure what Lars is running here.
> 
> View attachment 1937049


He uses the - 17 degree version I believe


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> He uses the - 17 degree version I believe


Also looks to be 5-10cm below seat level?


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Inconvenient truth, but I don't know of a single world cup downhiller or enduro racer with their bars below the saddle. In fact Greg Minaar is known for having an unusually high stack height.
> 
> To paraphrase Ayn Rand, "you can believe in bro science, but you can't ignore the consequences of believing in bro science."
> 
> It would make sense that a short-stem Sycros bar limits the backsweep, because otherwise you'd have a negative reach which would handle funny.


Inconvenient truth, not a single World Tour road rider has a bar height level with the saddle. They all feature prominent drop in their setups.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

And Ibis have just launched Exie with a size specific seat tube angle that really bucks the trend and grounded in logical thinking...





Exie - Ibis Cycles Inc.







www.ibiscycles.com




absolutely love this bike.
New Pyga Mobu is thought out in a similar vein


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

That's the go-to counter-argument and beside the point. Don't lump weight or suspension into the equation. Not since the days of Overend vs. Tomac has this been considered a good idea downhill, although I admit, Tomac made it look cool.

I personally don't believe that lower bars in XC are offer an aero advantage at <15mph, but perhaps Specialized will do a "Win Tunnel" test of this. I think the limit to how high you goes depends a lot more on control over the front end in tight corners.

The climbing advantage of slammed front ends in XCO was due to poorly-designed bikes. As I stated above, steeper seat tube angles corrected the counter-correcting in bar drop and stem length. As we can see from the backsweeped bars on the Scott team, true stem length has dropped significantly in the past few years.

There is no proof that, aside from weighting forward enough to prevent a wheelie, that lower bars offer a climbing advantage. They are a significant disadvantage downhill.












Le Duke said:


> They also don't have to worry about pedaling vigorously uphill very much, if at all.
> 
> I regularly pass people on 160mm+ bikes on steep (20%+) sections who can't pedal them. Like, the bars are so high that the rider would be better off putting their hands on the fork crown.
> 
> ...


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> And Ibis have just launched Exie with a size specific seat tube angle that really bucks the trend and grounded in logical thinking...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was excited&#8230; until I saw a price of $4500 for frame and shock. I just can't justify that even if I can afford it. So many other great options.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tommyrod74 said:


> I was excited&#8230; until I saw a price of $4500 for frame and shock. I just can't justify that even if I can afford it. So many other great options.


I thought the US$4500 was with a build kit and alloy wheels?


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Brad said:


> I thought the US$4500 was with a build kit and alloy wheels?


Sadly, complete builds start (!) at $7999.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tommyrod74 said:


> Sadly, complete builds start (!) at $7999.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> That's the go-to counter-argument and beside the point. Don't lump weight or suspension into the equation. Not since the days of Overend vs. Tomac has this been considered a good idea downhill, although I admit, Tomac made it look cool.
> 
> I personally don't believe that lower bars in XC are offer an aero advantage at <15mph, but perhaps Specialized will do a "Win Tunnel" test of this. I think the limit to how high you goes depends a lot more on control over the front end in tight corners.
> 
> ...


I think the ol trail bike nino is riding isn't doing him any favors as he ages. Oh well the Absalon win record is looking safer and safer.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> I think the ol trail bike nino is riding isn't doing him any favors as he ages. Oh well the Absalon win record is looking safer and safer.


I have never been one to think that a bike really makes a difference but the Scott riders do not look good on their new bikes. Which is interesting because they looked so good on their old bikes. They always had, IMHO, the best sorted bike in the field.

Standing out on course yesterday they just looked off compared to everyone else. That being said their new bike certainly is handling the big drop on the XC course really well. It is interesting watching them compared to Cooper on his Trek. Speed is exactly same, but the Scott is quieter and more composed.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I have never been one to think that a bike really makes a difference but the Scott riders do not look good on their new bikes. Which is interesting because they looked so good on their old bikes. They always had, IMHO, the best sorted bike in the field.
> 
> Standing out on course yesterday they just looked off compared to everyone else. That being said their new bike certainly is handling the big drop on the XC course really well. It is interesting watching them compared to Cooper on his Trek. Speed is exactly same, but the Scott is quieter and more composed.


Trail bikes usually are


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

LMN said:


> I have never been one to think that a bike really makes a difference but the Scott riders do not look good on their new bikes. Which is interesting because they looked so good on their old bikes.


I'm not so sure. They were dominant in 2018-2019, but even towards the end of 2019 they were losing their dominance. Then 2020 both were "off" as well as the beginning of 2021. This was all on the same old "dominate bike" they had been running and winning on. It's easy to point to the bike but it's just looks like there are hungrier and upcoming competitors. I haven't noticed any drop off of performance from from either of them and it just looks like more of the same, Nino is past his prime and KC had just one dominant year. Nino had so many opportunities to take Absalons record in 2019 but just couldn't close the deal.

It's odd because we're remembering their previous success and we're looking for answers, but that's just racing year over year. Do we blame the bike for Batty or Neff, what happened to them as they were knocking on the door in 2018-2019? Are people running out to buy the non-mainstream bikes of LL or TF because they look so good this year&#8230;. It's gotta be the bike right?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

MI-XC said:


> I'm not so sure. They were dominant in 2018-2019, but even towards the end of 2019 they were losing their dominance. Then 2020 both were "off" as well as the beginning of 2021. This was all on the same old "dominate bike" they had been running and winning on. It's easy to point to the bike but it's just looks like there are hungrier and upcoming competitors. I haven't noticed any drop off of performance from from either of them and it just looks like more of the same, Nino is past his prime and KC had just one dominant year. Nino had so many opportunities to take Absalons record in 2019 but just couldn't close the deal.
> 
> It's odd because we're remembering their previous success and we're looking for answers, but that's just racing year over year. Do we blame the bike for Batty or Neff, what happened to them as they were knocking on the door in 2018-2019? Are people running out to buy the non-mainstream bikes of LL or TF because they look so good this year&#8230;. It's gotta be the bike right?


At some point you can. I think we can all agree that a 160 travel bike with 2.8 knobby tires would be slower for any xc guy. The question is at what point does the bike become a negative factor. Could Pidcock win a WC XC race on a downhill bike since you think a bike means nothing?


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I think for us amateurs, the bike matters a lot less but for these world cup people, we are talking about 14 seconds between first and tenth in the short track. I can easily see how the new Scotts with the big rims, extra travel, and trail geometry can cost you a few seconds. Both Kate and Nino moved backwards and by moving backwards, we are talking maybe 5 or 6 seconds slower than their old bikes.

Will they be able to make up for it with their trail bikes in the XCO? We'll see Sunday. But considering both Kate and Nino's performances started to dip when they started incorporating big rims and tires, more travel etc, you at least have to pose the question whether the bike has something to do with it. It could just be shear coincidence, but it could also be that they are losing a few seconds per lap and that's enough to make a world cup rider look ordinary rather than extraordinary.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I should get us back to fact-based analysis.


None of those useless hardtails making a showing at Les Gets.

The new Scott Spark is not heavier than the old one.

The progressive design Specialized Epic continues to collect podium wins and top finishes all over the place.

I mention again Nino had been racing 120mm on the old Spark for up to a year prior to the new model.

There's plenty of evidence that Schurter is past his prime. I believe I brought that up after the first race of the season.

Kate Courtney is doing very well enough considering a broken wrist and some other setbacks.

The new IBIS has very progressive reach numbers and a head angle of 67* across the board.

Steep STA is a design that reduces pedal bob and front wheel lift, especially as rider height increases, so it's good that Ibis is making this proportionate. On the other hand wheelbase length isn't really a problem for shorter riders so this isn't really doing better for anyone on the short side either.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

I know…instead of picking racers for the podium let’s just pick bikes from now on. World Cup, Olympics. This could be fun.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> I should get us back to fact-based analysis.
> 
> 
> None of those useless hardtails making a showing at Les Gets.
> ...


So much for talking "facts" and you can't even get them right.

Kate didn't break her wrist, but her arm. I didn't check your other facts, but I would double check them just in case.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MI-XC said:


> I'm not so sure. They were dominant in 2018-2019, but even towards the end of 2019 they were losing their dominance. Then 2020 both were "off" as well as the beginning of 2021. This was all on the same old "dominate bike" they had been running and winning on. It's easy to point to the bike but it's just looks like there are hungrier and upcoming competitors. I haven't noticed any drop off of performance from from either of them and it just looks like more of the same, Nino is past his prime and KC had just one dominant year. Nino had so many opportunities to take Absalons record in 2019 but just couldn't close the deal.
> 
> It's odd because we're remembering their previous success and we're looking for answers, but that's just racing year over year. Do we blame the bike for Batty or Neff, what happened to them as they were knocking on the door in 2018-2019? Are people running out to buy the non-mainstream bikes of LL or TF because they look so good this year&#8230;. It's gotta be the bike right?


I don't think the bike is why they are not winning. But there is a correlation between the Scott team going away from a traditional XC set-up and their drop in performance. Now I am first to say correlation isn't causation. But it is worth paying attention to.

As someone who is watching them race in person they just don't look as good as those around them. Their bike just looks like more of a handful.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't know about Scott bike, but making conclusions it's bike's fault that Schurter is not winning is in my mind slightly (better to say totally) off. Bike might suck, I don't say that, but reality is, Schurter is old and not on top of field anymore. He hasn't been for year or two already. Also competition got stronger, so his dominance from few years ago is gone. I don't think it has anything to do with bike, but with normal human thing called aging. Schurter was perfectly fine on old bike, winning every single race of season, but last few years, even on old bike, he was nowhere near that dominance anymore. Sure last year's season was weird, but it was weird for everyone and Schurter was no so dominant anymore... on same bike he won everything and some more. 
So taking Schurter and saying it's bike thing, or taking Schurter as proof that bike is bad is far from any realistic thing. Taking other Scott team members might be different, but reality is, except for single season when Forster was surprisingly good, and basically one season when Courtney was beating everyone, they are today where they normally are. Fact is, Scott Sram team is basically one men band... Schurter only. Everyone else are there just to have team of more then one. Sure Courtney is factor in racing, but she's not that dominant (never was except for one season), and Forster of Frischknecht are where they normally are, so it's even hard to say bike made difference (might be place or two up or down, but for places around 20 or 30 it's hard to say it makes difference). 
And as I wrote before, making conclusions bike sucks because Schurter is not winning every single race (or any race), is not realistic. Only bike that would make him win every single race currently is ebike, but hopefully that won't be allowed in races for long time


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Why do you assume it has to be one or the other? It’s entirely possible that 1) Schurter is being eclipsed by others due to age, new talent coming in, etc. and also that 2) the new bike is, at best, a lateral move from the 100mm Spark and is maybe a step back for pure XCO racing.

It could also be that 3) The new bike is a huge adjustment and the team members, including Nino, just aren’t there yet.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I can tell you one thing though. Sam Gaze needs a bigger bike! He seriously looks like he is riding a little kids bike.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

what I found quite obvious today with all the mud is that these slack HA bikes don't like going around flat corners with little grip. That desire to push the front wheel on needed to be worked hard by the rider


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Spark RC did well today in terrible conditions, Schurter 5th, Braidot 8th.

Pidcock was riding some type of prototype electronic lockout.

The Swiss mud fender is interesting, both Schurter and Fluekiger were using it, as well as Dutchman Andreassen.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Spark RC did well today in terrible conditions, Schurter 5th, Braidot 8th.
> 
> Pidcock was riding some type of prototype electronic lockout.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm sure Nino would agree.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It takes a lot of screaming and yelling but you eventually come around to my point of view 

New bikes are just better, that's all there is to it. Nobody would do better on even a 5 year old bike at the World Cups this year. Today's conditions really exaggerate the differences.



LMN said:


> I can tell you one thing though. Sam Gaze needs a bigger bike! He seriously looks like he is riding a little kids bike.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> It takes a lot of screaming and yelling but you eventually come around to my point of view
> 
> New bikes are just better, that's all there is to it. Nobody would do better on even a 5 year old bike at the World Cups this year. Today's conditions really exaggerate the differences.


Old school bikes won both races, or did you gloss right over that? In fact the men's race was won with a 51mm offset fork.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> It takes a lot of screaming and yelling but you eventually come around to my point of view
> 
> New bikes are just better, that's all there is to it. Nobody would do better on even a 5 year old bike at the World Cups this year. Today's conditions really exaggerate the differences.


Yeah sure, PFP ran a decidely old school geometry Canyon in 2019 and 2020. For 2021 she switches to BMC (new school) and has gone backwards in performances. She's in her late 20s so not a symptom of age.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

MessagefromTate said:


> Yeah sure, PFP ran a decidely old school geometry Canyon in 2019 and 2020. For 2021 she switches to BMC (new school) and has gone backwards in performances. She's in her late 20s so not a symptom of age.


I heard PFP is going to goto 130 travel and 2.6 tires to complete the package.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

With a coil shock.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MattMay said:


> With a coil shock.


DH casing tires a Cush core DH. Running flats in wet races.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Is it me, or is Nino positioning himself more rearwards on descends than before? He seemed very stretched out, end of the rope like.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Is it me, or is Nino positioning himself more rearwards on descends than before? He seemed very stretched out, end of the rope like.


He doesn't look like he's comfortable on that bike. Almost like the stack is too high and even while pedaling he's more rear biased rather than between the wheels. Something just looks off. 
Once he got going he held the gap to MF at around 90sec but he never really brought that back and he was running a strong 4th at one point. Clearly he's gone backwards since the start of 2020 season. I'll be interested to see how his position on the bike evolves by the time Cape epic starts in October


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## Exmuhle (Nov 7, 2019)

What bike will Scott-Sram ride if it's a Hardtail track?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Scale, Kate used it in Albstadt


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## Exmuhle (Nov 7, 2019)

Brad said:


> Scale, Kate used it in Albstadt


Well yes, that's the obvious answer......will be interesting to see if they do use it.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Exmuhle said:


> Well yes, that's the obvious answer......will be interesting to see if they do use it.


by "they" I assume you are referring to the men? The Scale is still a popular choice with the women. In fact it was probably the better bike for the conditions they raced in yesterday but since they have to make their choice of steed on Friday before the XCC they're locked into that choice till Sunday


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Did Nino's dominance stop once his bike's started to get heavier and heavier? When he had his perfect season, wasn't he running 25mm internal rims with 2.25 tires and 100mm of travel? Then his dominance started to fade as he upped his travel to 110mm with 30mm rims and 2.4 tires with inserts. As he started adding weight to his bikes his dominance has eroded. Now you add in an even heavier bike frame and a 5th place is like a win for him.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Stonerider said:


> Did Nino's dominance stop once his bike's started to get heavier and heavier? When he had his perfect season, wasn't he running 25mm internal rims with 2.25 tires and 100mm of travel? Then his dominance started to fade as he upped his travel to 110mm with 30mm rims and 2.4 tires with inserts. As he started adding weight to his bikes his dominance has eroded. Now you add in an even heavier bike frame and a 5th place is like a win for him.


My 29IW wheels are lighter then my 25IW wheels&#8230;Roval control sl. I'd never go back, but I run 2.1 tires which now measure 2.2 on these wheels, great setup.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

The bikes weight is a very small factor here. They're all on light enough bikes as there isn't a kilo difference across the entire elite field I reckon. The fade started coming into the 2020 season where I guess his preparation wasn't as good as it needed to be. The younger riders have taken a massive step forward too, likely due to embracing more aggressive training programmes.
What I do note is the slacker bikes all showed their tendency to push the front wheel yesterday. That not so obvious in the dry but in the mud it becomes more apparent.
Personally i think Nino is just off his peak. Testosterone production starts to slow around 35years so recovery takes longer. He is likely putting in high TSS training weeks and planning to peak in 3 weeks. In short he's racing fatigued. he should get his taper right and be a factor in Tokyo but I don't think it will be enough


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I would not write him off yet. On olymics perhaps but not in general.

When I start doubting myself, cycling wise, and in general, I always remember Valverde.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

The Les Gets World Cup was all about tires. Those who ran proper mud spikes had good days. By spike I mean old school tall knobs on 2.0s.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I noticed that Jenny ran Fast Traks even in the front and was descending pretty fast. She did have a few exciting moments though. Other Specialized riders like Sarrou and Frei looked like they were on proper mud tires.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> I would not write him off yet. On olymics perhaps but not in general.
> 
> When I start doubting myself, cycling wise, and in general, I always remember Valverde.


He will have good races but he's phenomenal year of winning everything was the peak. Everything after that looks lacklustre....which is the problem with being as dominant as he was from 2016 into 2017. If we look at his career you will see that that brief period was the peak of the bell curve of his career. His current lack of form isn't all that surprising to my as its a phenomenon seen in many dominant athletes in many sports. So many factors play a role. Loss of motivation is a biggy. Yes they talk up a good game but are they executing their work outs to the same level of intensity? Are they allowing more leisure time into their life etc etc etc etc


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## edu2 (Jan 14, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> Did Nino's dominance stop once his bike's started to get heavier and heavier? When he had his perfect season, wasn't he running 25mm internal rims with 2.25 tires and 100mm of travel? Then his dominance started to fade as he upped his travel to 110mm with 30mm rims and 2.4 tires with inserts. As he started adding weight to his bikes his dominance has eroded. Now you add in an even heavier bike frame and a 5th place is like a win for him.


Maybe Nino felt he was slowing down and needed to add capability to bike. He couldn't take the same lines anymore as he did on his prime.

Who knows


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Spark RC did well today in terrible conditions, Schurter 5th, Braidot 8th.
> 
> Pidcock was riding some type of prototype electronic lockout.
> 
> ...


Here...









Pidcock volvió a competir con su misterioso prototipo de suspensión ¿inteligente?


Pidcock no terminó la carrera de Les Gets pero nos dio tiempo a ver de nuevo el sistema de suspensión que está probando desde hace meses en su BMC




www.brujulabike.com


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

tick_magnet said:


> I noticed that Jenny ran Fast Traks even in the front and was descending pretty fast. She did have a few exciting moments though. Other Specialized riders like Sarrou and Frei looked like they were on proper mud tires.


Sarrou appeared to have a Ground Control front and Renegade rear. I guess Jenny was running the "new" Fast Tracks?


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

edu2 said:


> Maybe Nino felt he was slowing down and needed to add capability to bike. He couldn't take the same lines anymore as he did on his prime.
> 
> Who knows


Maybe he needs a little more cushioning in his "old" age, hence the 120mm travel front and rear. I'm sure his views were taken into consideration when they started designing the new bike 3+ years ago. Kate, Lars, and Junior just have to learn to deal with whatever Nino wants in a bike frame.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> New bikes are just better, that's all there is to it. Nobody would do better on even a 5 year old bike at the World Cups this year. Today's conditions really exaggerate the differences.


Actually those conditions is where an older geometry really shines. The new long, low, and slack bikes are really good at going fast, when it gets slow they are a handful.

The best bike for sundays race was probably a nicely balanced hardtail with narrow tires and rims. And I hate to say it, but small wheels would be a huge advantage too. Small wheels means better penetration of the mud which means more grip, plus there is less tire to pack with mud.

As it was, in the dry the course was border line hardtail. Most people tested their hardtails but decided that the FS was probably the way to go. But if they could have switched bikes sunday morning many would have.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> *Actually those conditions is where an older geometry really shines. The new long, low, and slack bikes are really good at going fast, when it gets slow they are a handful.*
> 
> The best bike for sundays race was probably a nicely balanced hardtail with narrow tires and rims. And I hate to say it, but small wheels would be a huge advantage too. Small wheels means better penetration of the mud which means more grip, plus there is less tire to pack with mud.
> 
> As it was, in the dry the course was border line hardtail. Most people tested their hardtails but decided that the FS was probably the way to go. But if they could have switched bikes sunday morning many would have.


Bang on the money. New slacker geometry also only feels faster because its more stable at that speed. If you can handle the ore nervous steeper bikes then you're not disadavantaged.

My choice would have been my old CAAD 5 F3000SL with Headshok fatty. and panaracer dart 1.95 tyres That bike was superb on wet courses


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> My choice would have been my old CAAD 5 F3000SL with Headshok fatty. and panaracer dart 1.95 tyres That bike was superb on wet courses


Mud-tires are always tricky. If you go really old school, like a Maxxis Medusa you get amazing grip in mud, but they are terrifying on any kind of hard surface and offer no grip on wet rocks or roots. The best tire I have used in true mud is a Maxxis beaver. They do a good job of walking that balance between mud performance and mud performance.

Honestly, I thought Forecasters would be enough for those conditions but I was wrong. I had pulled Beavers out of the tire kits, time to put them back in.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I still keep a pair of narrow beavers in my basement, but the true wet race didn't come yet.

I also have a 2.25 beaver, a bit on the larger size....what a great autumn/winter front tire.


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## Exmuhle (Nov 7, 2019)

People better informed than me will know; but I get the feeling that in XC, despite the conditions, tyre choices can be conservative. Having seen photos on the Pinkbike website of tyres used, some really surprise me. 
I'd have thought either a mix of tyres, or mud would be the way to go - however some of then looked almost dry weather tyres. Really??


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Just now from Pink Bike


https://www.pinkbike.com/news/8-things-that-didnt-happen-in-the-bike-industry-last-month-round-up.html


]








*Mountain Biking Fans Form Union to Insist Frames Don't Decide Results, Unless It Reinforces Their Own Opinion*
Despite half the podium riding frames on one single manufacturer at the recent world cup in Leogang, as well as and incredible slew of results over the last few years, downhill racing fans insist it's not all about the bike, at least when it matters to them. We caught up with their chairman Drew Mitchelson, who many of you may know better as the method actor who has played the pantomime villain and bonafide arsehole "Lance Armstrong" since 1992.

"Well," Drew explains, "I've always had this great schtick when playing Armstrong saying "It's not about the bike" right? I mean, it wasn't the bike at all in my character arc and that's the beautiful irony. Anyway, with that tagline the guys from the Parts are Equal Not Inherently Superior For Almost All Race Eventualities group approached me and wanted to see if I would use my bullish charm to try and convince Team Commencal Muc-Off to ride Kenda Honeybadgers front and back for the next World Cup, Zoom suspension and a frame from Muddy Fox just to prove that they would still podium. What's best is that we want them to run it in a mullet set up. If they win, then parts make no difference. If they lose it's because of the mixed wheels."

"I was skeptical, but if the pros bikes make a difference to results then maybe that would undermine my stance as I troll reviews in YouTube comments out a weird sense of loyalty to my chosen brand, or when denounce every new standard and complain about things I only partially understand on articles that I didn't read fully."
"However in the case of Nino and that new Scott, we've decided we don't like it so it is about the bike for him. He'd be winning everything if it wasn't for that silly internal shock design. It costs him at least a minute a lap."

"We're also hoping to make some t-shirts saying "Frames don't win races, French People Do".


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

LMN said:


> Actually those conditions is where an older geometry really shines. The new long, low, and slack bikes are really good at going fast, when it gets slow they are a handful.


I binned my -1.5 degree angle adjust headset after uncalled for crashes from the front wheel washing out, and went back to the original 69 degree head angle
(over an 8 month time period too, so I had adapted as much as I was able to, 
plus didn't feel anymore confident going down steeps into flat transitions 
unlike going from 26" to 29")


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Exmuhle said:


> People better informed than me will know; but I get the feeling that in XC, despite the conditions, tyre choices can be conservative. Having seen photos on the Pinkbike website of tyres used, some really surprise me.
> I'd have thought either a mix of tyres, or mud would be the way to go - however some of then looked almost dry weather tyres. Really??


At least for the women's race nobody expected it to be that bad. A lot of people got caught out.

But some riders really don't like mud tires. They just look wrong and if use them when you shouldn't they are slow.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Stonerider said:


> Did Nino's dominance stop once his bike's started to get heavier and heavier? When he had his perfect season, wasn't he running 25mm internal rims with 2.25 tires and 100mm of travel? Then his dominance started to fade as he upped his travel to 110mm with 30mm rims and 2.4 tires with inserts. As he started adding weight to his bikes his dominance has eroded. Now you add in an even heavier bike frame and a 5th place is like a win for him.


This is wishful thinking that keeps popping up. One more time, the facts: his new bike isn't any heavier. It's still about 22 pounds. If perhaps you believe that his 18-pound 27.5 hardtail would be better, well... I'm just not gonna revisit that. I've got better debates against QAnon and Flat Earthers, lol.

I have no doubt that Nino's super-skills contributed to him being on the tail end of the podium last weekend.

The only downside to a FS bike in mud is that there's a lot more crevices to collect mud and really weigh the bike down. In that sense I agree a hardtail is good for a non-technical wet race. However, with very little grip to come by, the extra suspension also keeps the rear as planted as possible on wet roots and rocks better. For this, the new Spark RC was the best design--it also clears up to 2.6" tires so there was plenty of space to release the mud.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Or did Nino's dominance stop as he posted up his training vids and others realised how much harder they had to train?


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> This is wishful thinking that keeps popping up. One more time, the facts: his new bike isn't any heavier. It's still about 22 pounds. If perhaps you believe that his 18-pound 27.5 hardtail would be better, well... I'm just not gonna revisit that. I've got better debates against QAnon and Flat Earthers, lol.
> 
> I have no doubt that Nino's super-skills contributed to him being on the tail end of the podium last weekend.
> 
> The only downside to a FS bike in mud is that there's a lot more crevices to collect mud and really weigh the bike down. In that sense I agree a hardtail is good for a non-technical wet race. However, with very little grip to come by, the extra suspension also keeps the rear as planted as possible on wet roots and rocks better. For this, the new Spark RC was the best design--it also clears up to 2.6" tires so there was plenty of space to release the mud.


I agree with this. Plus, Nino's bike handling have won him quite a few races when people were knocking on his door (Fumic, Absalon, Cooper, Tempier, Kerschbaumer, etc.), heavy bike or not. Plus, wasn't his father a National DH coach for the Swiss Team? 2019 was a very good year for Scott-SRAM and they were already using 110mm, 30mm rims and tire inserts.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Spark RC did well today in terrible conditions, Schurter 5th, Braidot 8th.
> 
> Pidcock was riding some type of prototype electronic lockout.
> 
> ...


With the duct tape on the down tube it looks like it was there as a tear off. By being only lightly taped on the rider can decide if there is too much mud on the bike to reach down and pull the tape off the frame in one go, taking all the accumulated mud with it. Like a tear off for goggles but on the frame.

There's a picture of Mathias Fluckiger where the top of the tape on his bike is off to the side so easily reachable:


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There's a look at Loana Lecomte's Massi full suspension bike from Les Gets 2021 here. The bike looks to be the same type as she was riding before but with a custom paint job









Loana Lecomte debuts new Massi Aire SL in Les Gets


For such a special occasion Loana Lecomte has just premiered a new Massi Aire SL full of details.




www.brujulabike.com





She has a custom frame message written on the inside of the rear chainstay: "tout donner pour ne rien regretter" (Give everything so that you don't have to regret anything).










This got me thinking. Mathieu Van Der Poel's Canyon Lux CF has a custom frame message on the underside of the top tube: "let the legs do the talking"









Limited edition Canyon Lux CF SLX MvdP builds up World Cup winning XC frameset


Canyon's XC race-winning Lux CF SLX mountain bike gets new limited MvdP, Mathieu van der Poel signature edition frameset!




bikerumor.com














Just how much extra performance is a custom motivational message on a frame worth if you can't see it whilst riding? Is it going to be more or less than a full set of magic stickers?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> This is wishful thinking that keeps popping up. One more time, the facts: his new bike isn't any heavier. It's still about 22 pounds. If perhaps you believe that his 18-pound 27.5 hardtail would be better, well... I'm just not gonna revisit that. I've got better debates against QAnon and Flat Earthers, lol.
> 
> I have no doubt that Nino's super-skills contributed to him being on the tail end of the podium last weekend.
> 
> The only downside to a FS bike in mud is that there's a lot more crevices to collect mud and really weigh the bike down. In that sense I agree a hardtail is good for a non-technical wet race. However, with very little grip to come by, the extra suspension also keeps the rear as planted as possible on wet roots and rocks better. For this, the new Spark RC was the best design--it also clears up to 2.6" tires so there was plenty of space to release the mud.


You've never responded at what point does the bike become a negative for racing? You think 2.4 750g tires are better, so is 2.8 900g better yet? How about travel, 120mm is better than 100mm, so is 140mm even better? Is 67 the optimal head angle, or should we head towards 64? Seat angle is meaningless, I know you think it's important but it's not. 2 identical bikes one with a 76 and one with a 74 can be set up in exactly the same position with a seat post swap. The fact you can't comprehend that the reach measurement is what's really important says a lot.


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## cbenj42 (Jul 16, 2012)

LMN said:


> It would be really easy for this thread to continue as an argument about geometry. Which is just old.
> 
> I am way more interested in why do WC racers make the bike choices they do. I know from my rather extensive experience that most of them are constantly testing and riding different bikes with different set-up. But some still default to pretty traditional set-ups.
> 
> ...


I'm late to this discussion, but have spent quite a bit of time thinking about the rationale of race bike set up over the past months. My n=1/personal anecdote is that my size XL Ibis DV9 frame broke in late March, and the only frame Ibis had on hand to replace it was a size Large. I stand 1.83m tall, so I am between the two sizes, but chose the larger size when I purchased my original frame because I was interested in trying an XC bike with a longer Front Center.

While I could ride steep, fall line trails more safely than before on the XL, I was nowhere near the descending times I set on more traditional XC race bikes I have owned in the past. (Trek Superfly FS and V1 SC Highball C) The XL felt awkward on tight trail, and not responsive to acceleration. When I transfered my parts to the size Large frame, I expected it to feel unstable, but instead I was descending faster than the size XL, and as fast or faster than my older bikes. My handlebar drop and "true reach" of tip of saddle to center of handlebars remained the same between the two bikes. I have always been fit to my bikes by professional fitters as long as I've raced, and my cockpit setup has changed little in the past 6 years, except for handlebars growing from 690mm to 740mm

In general, I felt like I could push the size Large frame around corners faster than the XL, and that it would ride out of steep, rough sections of trail without being hung up and losing momentum. While the Front Center measurement was shorter, my hands moved closer to the front hub, like I was pushing it forwards more. As we saw on Sunday, being able to keep weight on the front wheel is crucial for cornering traction. I'm interested in hearing what other contributors to this thread think.


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## ManxShred (Jun 18, 2008)

My thoughts are that the newer geo bikes need a more forward descending position, putting you low and central over the bike compared to older geo being more low and back.
Both basically put you in a similar position in relation to the front wheel as older steeper geo has the front wheel closer.

In muddy situations, trust in the front wheel gripping can be lacking, especially in the conditions in the race, so resulting in people not committing fully forward for fear of not being able to control the front in a slip. Being on an older geo bike can actually benefit in that case, but my feeling would be that you should be running an appropriate front tyre for the conditions.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

At your height of 1.83m, a size XL (very generally) is on the high side, but not a bad choice, specifically since the reach of the DV9 is very short compared to new bikes. A reach of 439mm in size L is pretty short. There are pro downhillers an inch shorter than you that opt for a size XL.

With all due respect to their abilities, if you scroll through this thread I think you'll see that pro XC racers and teams have had no idea how to set up a bike for good handling until recently (especially taller racers). There are some terrible, terrible XCO bike setups that you'll see in recent years, but this herd is thinning out. This was mostly due to peer pressure overruling good sense.

There's a recent article on this site that's fantastic knowledge transfer on technique. According to one of the best that's ever done it, Greg Minaar, "slower is faster." He brakes early into corners. I wouldn't believe that just because your smaller bike is instantly more responsive (i.e. twitchy) that it'll be faster, or that overloading the front end is what you need. I'd test that assumption with the clock.









BetterRide: Greg Minnaar Says: Brake Early, Not Late


Brake Early to be Faster and More Efficient! Says 3 Time World Champ Minnaar I recently saw an article where the writer said that dragging your brakes and braking early for corners was slowing you down and making you less efficient. Let's examine that and then I will tell you what Greg Minnaar...




www.mtbr.com





"True Reach" that you mentioned is important. This magic measurement doesn't change. Regardless of the bike you ride, your distance to the handlebars, and your handlebar width is going to have an optimum distance that's unique to your measurements.

The newest XC bikes follow a model of as long a top tube as possible with as short a stem as possible. To find out your true "true reach," I highly recommend the RAD method.









Dialing in your bike setup step 1: Make it RAD - Lee Likes Bikes


This article is adapted from the book Dialed and ran on Pinkbike. It lays out the most important aspect of mountain bike fit and setup. I hope you find it helpful! When it comes to mountain bike setup, the most important measurement is the distance between your bottom bracket and your grips. I...




www.leelikesbikes.com





I think what you'll find is that your stem length will need to shorten and your bars will need to get wider, regardless of what frame you choose. You need a little more breathing room to lift and handle the bike than what most XC racers choose by default.



cbenj42 said:


> I'm late to this discussion, but have spent quite a bit of time thinking about the rationale of race bike set up over the past months. My n=1/personal anecdote is that my size XL Ibis DV9 frame broke in late March, and the only frame Ibis had on hand to replace it was a size Large. I stand 1.83m tall, so I am between the two sizes, but chose the larger size when I purchased my original frame because I was interested in trying an XC bike with a longer Front Center.
> 
> While I could ride steep, fall line trails more safely than before on the XL, I was nowhere near the descending times I set on more traditional XC race bikes I have owned in the past. (Trek Superfly FS and V1 SC Highball C) The XL felt awkward on tight trail, and not responsive to acceleration. When I transfered my parts to the size Large frame, I expected it to feel unstable, but instead I was descending faster than the size XL, and as fast or faster than my older bikes. My handlebar drop and "true reach" of tip of saddle to center of handlebars remained the same between the two bikes. I have always been fit to my bikes by professional fitters as long as I've raced, and my cockpit setup has changed little in the past 6 years, except for handlebars growing from 690mm to 740mm
> 
> In general, I felt like I could push the size Large frame around corners faster than the XL, and that it would ride out of steep, rough sections of trail without being hung up and losing momentum. While the Front Center measurement was shorter, my hands moved closer to the front hub, like I was pushing it forwards more. As we saw on Sunday, being able to keep weight on the front wheel is crucial for cornering traction. I'm interested in hearing what other contributors to this thread think.


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## cbenj42 (Jul 16, 2012)

Let's get some things straight, here:



chomxxo said:


> With all due respect to their abilities, if you scroll through this thread I think you'll see that pro XC racers and teams have had no idea how to set up a bike for good handling until recently (especially taller racers). There are some terrible, terrible XCO bike setups that you'll see in recent years, but this herd is thinning out. This was mostly due to peer pressure overruling good sense.


I know, have ridden with, and am friends with several different individuals who have raced World Cup XC at the Under-23 and Elite level. They put much more thought and testing into their bikes' setup than you give them credit for, because they do not conform to the marketing department copy you have internalized. I can only assume the "terrible" bike fit that you keep referring to is Jaroslav Kulhavy. I've seen him race in-person, and can tell you that he descended faster than nearly every other rider. This isn't surprising, because he was the best racer in the world at the time. His 130mm stem certainly wasn't holding him back that day.



chomxxo said:


> I wouldn't believe that just because your smaller bike is instantly more responsive (i.e. twitchy) that it'll be faster, or that overloading the front end is what you need. I'd test that assumption with the clock.


My smaller frame is quantitatively faster than my larger frame. Full stop. Same wheels, tires, pressure, suspension settings. In fact, I began to set new descending PRs after about two weeks riding it. If anything, the smaller frame feels less twitchy. Longer stems slow down steering.



chomxxo said:


> The newest XC bikes follow a model of as long a top tube as possible with as short a stem as possible. To find out your true "true reach," I highly recommend the RAD method.


If you ask me, this is to sell more bikes to riders who may not have the necessary fitness or skills to ride a bike downhill well. The bikes are forgiving and don't bite back when mistakes are made. What is sacrificed is weight on the front wheel, which is one of the most important factors in how a bicycle frame handles because it creates traction. All mountain bikes need it, and since XC race bikes are generally ridden on flatter trails instead of fall line skidders or WC DH courses, a (relatively) longer stem will give the front wheel traction. The stronger a rider is, the lower or longer the handlebars can be positioned, which means that he or she can put more weight on the front wheel and still be able to safely handle a bike. I believe that's why we're seeing riders like Carter Woods put 100mm stems on bikes designed around 50mm.



chomxxo said:


> I think what you'll find is that your stem length will need to shorten and your bars will need to get wider, regardless of what frame you choose. You need a little more breathing room to lift and handle the bike than what most XC racers choose by default.


The RAD formula spat out a number that indeed indicated I needed a shorter stem and wider bar. It made me remember that I tried two different shorter stems when I first assembled my smaller frame. Both made the bike feel cramped while descending and put me too far over the rear axle. Saying that someone will "choose by default" also implies that they don't know their own abilities or bodies. It's idiotic to assume that the best racers in the world are clueless sheep.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cbenj42 said:


> Let's get some things straight, here:
> 
> I know, have ridden with, and am friends with several different individuals who have raced World Cup XC at the Under-23 and Elite level. They put much more thought and testing into their bikes' setup than you give them credit for, because they do not conform to the marketing department copy you have internalized. I can only assume the "terrible" bike fit that you keep referring to is Jaroslav Kulhavy. I've seen him race in-person, and can tell you that he descended faster than nearly every other rider. This isn't surprising, because he was the best racer in the world at the time. His 130mm stem certainly wasn't holding him back that day.
> 
> ...


Amen!! 
Like wise the pool of riders I mix with, and my fellow coaches all spend a lot of time with their more accomplished riders dialling in set up. All use a longer stem for front wheel traction. The muddy conditions at Les Gets showed this as the bikes pushing the front wheel in the corner all had similar set ups. People who spend 25hrs per week on their bikes tend to flush out what works and what doesn't. 
So I simply ignore the troll and let him evangelise to himself


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Anybody got a shot of the Maxxis Severe 2.25 tire?

The Barzo seems well-proven in mud at the World Cup level too.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

cbenj42 said:


> Let's get some things straight, here:
> 
> I know, have ridden with, and am friends with several different individuals who have raced World Cup XC at the Under-23 and Elite level. They put much more thought and testing into their bikes' setup than you give them credit for, because they do not conform to the marketing department copy you have internalized. I can only assume the "terrible" bike fit that you keep referring to is Jaroslav Kulhavy. I've seen him race in-person, and can tell you that he descended faster than nearly every other rider. This isn't surprising, because he was the best racer in the world at the time. His 130mm stem certainly wasn't holding him back that day.
> 
> ...


This is the classic appeal to expert argument that sidesteps the facts. You just proved my point on peer pressure: it remains thick.

I like to bring up World Cup downhill which started out with the John Tomac drop bar bike and took it from there, embracing whatever new advances they could make rapidly.

XCO has and will probably continue to have an uneasy relationship with new bike tech. It's like you've got to prove it has nothing to do with the bike.

Thankfully now, if it did just 5-10 short years ago, what you're asserting has no relationship with what top World Cup racers themselves are choosing or new bikes, thankfully. I was a fan of Kulhavy and Gaze but they did it to themselves, and that's unfortunate.

I should'nt have to spell it out but safer=faster. One of the greatest and fastest of all time, Greg Minaar, is my kind of guy: thoughtful, detail oriented, and humble.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

“expert argument” is you, right? 

The mother of all biases is subject matter expertise.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

MattMay said:


> "expert argument" is you, right?
> 
> The mother of all biases is subject matter expertise.


And the best way to admit defeat is to revert to personal attacks. Peer pressure is getting thick as pea soup, lol.

We'll I do find it interesting to mention that one of my favorite bikes was a parts bin bike, fully rigid, with that's right, a 120mm stem, 4" saddle drop as usual. I took it out on the most technical trail I could find (called The Beast), put on flats and a gravity dropper, and flailed it till I broke the top tube. Then I got it TIG welded, went out and broke it again.

Several years ago I recall LMN telling the story of a great descender who started riding rigid, but it altered his ability-instead of blasting through stuff he started more carefully picking lines and he never was the same.

Back to the pros. The announcers at Les Gets mentioned that despite the terrible conditions, not a single mechanical to speak of. Credit better bikes for that, for sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> And the best way to admit defeat is to revert to personal attacks. Peer pressure is getting thick as pea soup, lol.
> 
> We'll I do find it interesting to mention that one of my favorite bikes was a parts bin bike, fully rigid, with that's right, a 120mm stem, 4" saddle drop as usual. I took it out on the most technical trail I could find (called The Beast), put on flats and a gravity dropper, and flailed it till I broke the top tube. Then I got it TIG welded, went out and broke it again.
> 
> ...


So what's the future in your eyes, you keep sidestepping. 140 travel, 2.8 tires, 64 head angle? Maybe a downhill bike is the future of xc? You won't answer because you have no clue.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

No attack from me…if you claim to be an expert, then you filter everything through that lens. That’s not an attack. That’s a fact. Psychology 101, mental bias…we defend our bias, close off objective arguments or alternative options that might be equally as valid. And claimed subject matter expertise is well documented to be among the biggest biases. (If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.)


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> This is the classic appeal to expert argument that sidesteps the facts. You just proved my point on peer pressure: it remains thick.


To be fair, he was not appealing to authority because he never made a comment along the lines of - this is correct because the pros do it. He was countering your claim that the pros setup up their bikes due to peer pressure. He said he personally knows pros and they spend lots of time testing rather than simply conforming. This may or may not be true and you guys can argue about it, but there is nothing here about appeal to authority.

Even his comment about Kulhavy was more about Kulhavy's descending speed rather than whether that is the bike setup everyone should adopt because it's Kulhavy.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> To be fair, he was not appealing to authority because he never made a comment along the lines of - this is correct because the pros do it. He was countering your claim that the pros setup up their bikes due to peer pressure. He said he personally knows pros and they spend lots of time testing rather than simply conforming. This may or may not be true and you guys can argue about it, but there is nothing here about appeal to authority.
> 
> Even his comment about Kulhavy was more about Kulhavy's descending speed rather than whether that is the bike setup everyone should adopt because it's Kulhavy.


I wonder at what point chom starts to realise he is the real bully in this discussion?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It’s ironic but very gratifying that Specialized, which sponsored two admittedly great racers with two of the most jacked-up bike fits of all time, would in subsequent years adopt the progressive XC geometry pioneered by the Intense Sniper.

My coach is friendly with one of the Specialized lead engineers responsible for the 2020 Epic. This guy also happens to be a national champion and regularly tests new products out in the trails in CO. He is very pleased to have built a bike that climbs and descends equally well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> It's ironic but very gratifying that Specialized, which sponsored two admittedly great racers with two of the most jacked-up bike fits of all time, would in subsequent years adopt the progressive XC geometry pioneered by the Intense Sniper.
> 
> My coach is friendly with one of the Specialized lead engineers responsible for the 2020 Epic. This guy also happens to be a national champion and regularly tests new products out in the trails in CO. He is very pleased to have built a bike that climbs and descends equally well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a medium epic, 100 -6 stem, the previous version I used a 110 -12. The bike is 100 travel, with 2.1 tires. That is far different than what Scott is using. Honestly the new bike isn't much different feeling than the previous version, the head angle is a little slacker is the most note able but not a game changer.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> I have a medium epic, 100 -6 stem, the previous version I used a 110 -12. The bike is 100 travel, with 2.1 tires. That is far different than what Scott is using. Honestly the new bike isn't much different feeling than the previous version, the head angle is a little slacker is the most note able but not a game changer.


once set up to have the rider weight distributed similarly across the current bike and the previous versoin they feel the same and the slacker bike ends up with a loner stem. go figure


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Brad said:


> once set up to have the rider weight distributed similarly across the current bike and the previous versoin they feel the same and the slacker bike ends up with a loner stem. go figure


The new slacker bike has a shorter stem with more rise. The reach was increased and stack dropped on the new frame. My fit is identical on both bikes. Specialized would have more to gain by getting rid of the brain nonsense and save 1/2lb and rid themselves of all the warranty issues. Suspension is not designed to be locked out, regardless of any blow offs it stresses the system more.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> I have a medium epic, 100 -6 stem, the previous version I used a 110 -12. The bike is 100 travel, with 2.1 tires. That is far different than what Scott is using. Honestly the new bike isn't much different feeling than the previous version, the head angle is a little slacker is the most note able but not a game changer.


Catharine too dropped 10mm from her stem length when she got the new bike. 70mm to 60mm on a medium.

Interestingly, riders with long legs are actually going to longer stems on these new steep seat angle bikes. The 10-15mm longer top tube doesn't make up for the 30mm further forward the seat sits.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I think we started this thread with Jordan Sarou and Haley Batten’s normal-looking, winning bikes, no need to repeat the facts. Any stem length 70mm or less is quite normal, otherwise you’re riding the wrong sized bike.


Even the XL Epic with a 70mm stem that it’s stocked with (495 mm reach) would be just fine for the tallest WC racers out there.

MTBR is full of anecdotes about what interesting setups locals come up with, but they’re off-topic here.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Catharine too dropped 10mm from her stem length when she got the new bike. 70mm to 60mm on a medium.
> 
> Interestingly, riders with long legs are actually going to longer stems on these new steep seat angle bikes. The 10-15mm longer top tube doesn't make up for the 30mm further forward the seat sits.


That's my point. I had a bike to use for an event (due to my team mate being affiliated to the local branch of Spec)
I ended up with a longer stem than they supplied with the bike to get the same amount of weight on the front wheel. 
Moving the saddle back ward on these short chainstay steep seat tube bikes doesn't work so well. When I compared it to the previous model the stem was longer by 1 cm.

A few months ago I had the 2021 Scalpel for a week to review. They only had a small for me. Consuting the geo charts I should have been ok with a 80mm stem since the reach difference between my 2018/19 Medium is only 11mm.
I had to fit a 90mm stem and it still felt too short and this was with the lay back post. Saddle to bar measurement was still shorter by 11mm so I threw a 100mm on the small and it felt better. At speed it felt stable and the steering weight was perfect. So now I fit riders according to weight distribution between the wheels and the stem is just an outcome of the reach needed


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> I think we started this thread with Jordan Sarou and Haley Batten's normal-looking, winning bikes, no need to repeat the facts. Any stem length 70mm or less is quite normal, otherwise you're riding the wrong sized bike.
> 
> Even the XL Epic with a 70mm stem that it's stocked with (495 mm reach) would be just fine for the tallest WC racers out there.


Batten runs an 80 stem
Kerschbaumer runs a 90
Blevins runs a 100


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Even the XL Epic with a 70mm stem that it's stocked with (495 mm reach) would be just fine for the tallest WC racers out there.


That might be your opinion, and let us get things straight here, you are stating opinion not fact. As are all of us.

I am 165cm and use a 70mm stem on a 450mm reach bike. In my opinion there is no way a rider who is going 25cm taller than me is going to fit on a bike that is only 4.5cm longer.

I have seen pictures of you on your bike and you look like you are riding a bike that is way too short for you. It looks like you are trying to race XC on a trail set-up. My experience is that going that short on bikes is just slower, and there is a lot of other people who are a lot better at riding bikes then you or myself who have had the same experience.

I posted a picture of Jared Graves XC bike, someone who is way better at riding bikes then just about anybody else. And he rides a 90mm stem, why because he finds it faster for XC racing.

The reality is that people who are good at XC racing pick the stem length that gives them the best fit. They don't get hung up in numbers. If you are riding correctly you just aren't that sensitive a shorter or longer stem.

I suspect from some of comments that you have made about descending technique that you have a couple issues with your riding that make long stems difficult for you. A good rule of thumb is if long stems are causing significant issues then you are probably putting way too much weight on your hands when descending.

I know you are going to reject that hypothesis out of hand but you should ask why world class riders as a group seem to run stems longer than 70mm and still descend unbelievably fast.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Batten runs an 80 stem
> Kerschbaumer runs a 90
> Blevins runs a 100


I want to report a murder


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> I want to report a murder


Well we know they won't have any good results with those stem lengths!!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Well we know they won't have any good results with those stem lengths!!


To be fair Kerschbaumer is struggling a bit right now.

But I don't think a pinky finger width of stem length has anything to do with that.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Yeah he is struggling. Is it diet training methodology? He's gone completely off the boil. As has Emily


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> To be fair Kerschbaumer is struggling a bit right now.
> 
> But I don't think a pinky finger width of stem length has anything to do with that.


I bet he'd win gold in Tokyo if he sized up a frame and ran a 60mm stem ?


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Brad said:


> Yeah he is struggling. Is it diet training methodology? He's gone completely off the boil. As has Emily


A couple of years ago Kerschbaumer was exactly where Cink is right now. Giving up just a little to the more competent descenders when the course points down, but more than making up for it by being arguably the strongest rider on longer climbs and especially at higher elevations when applicable. Is that sustainable? Has any rider managed a lengthy period at or near the top with that specific competency as their defining attribute?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Circlip said:


> A couple of years ago Kerschbaumer was exactly where Cink is right now. Giving up just a little to the more competent descenders when the course points down, but more than making up for it by being arguably the strongest rider on longer climbs and especially at higher elevations when applicable. Is that sustainable? Has any rider managed a lengthy period at or near the top with that specific competency as their defining attribute?


good question! I don't know the answer off hand


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> That might be your opinion, and let us get things straight here, you are stating opinion not fact. As are all of us.
> 
> I am 165cm and use a 70mm stem on a 450mm reach bike. In my opinion there is no way a rider who is going 25cm taller than me is going to fit on a bike that is only 4.5cm longer.
> 
> ...


Once again getting personal which is off topic. And I don't think you actually know how to speak about bikes without an appeal to expert fallacy so I'll overlook it, lol.

Greg Minaar is 6'3". For years he went to the extra trouble of custom-extending the reach of his V10 8mm from its stock 490mm. He custom extended the chain stays by 5mm so that was important to him too. Of course he pairs that with a 35mm stem.

My opinion on sizing doesn't cause manufacturers to redesign their bikes but some sound concepts have. My measurements on my bike are a tad longer than Minaar's, trust me an XXL Tallboy 3 is a very big bike 

One thing I think less-experienced people do is confuse true reach or RAD with actual stem length. This is because for XC racers it looks pro, while for downhillers the opposite is quite true as well.

I think RAD is a pretty sound concept. For what it's worth, Lee McCormack thinks some new bikes are too long. I disagree with that as long as your bike can fit a short enough stem for your ideal RAD.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Once again getting personal which is off topic. And I don't think you actually know how to speak about bikes without an appeal to expert fallacy so I'll overlook it, lol.
> 
> Greg Minaar is 6'3". For years he went to the extra trouble of custom-extending the reach of his V10 8mm from its stock 490mm. He custom extended the chain stays by 5mm so that was important to him too. Of course he pairs that with a 35mm stem.
> 
> ...


Who cares what dh guys are doing, do you base your xc bike on dh? I think everyone here agrees dh requires a different setup.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Once again getting personal which is off topic. And I don't think you actually know how to speak about bikes without an appeal to expert fallacy so I'll overlook it, lol.
> 
> Greg Minaar is 6'3". For years he went to the extra trouble of custom-extending the reach of his V10 8mm from its stock 490mm. He custom extended the chain stays by 5mm so that was important to him too. Of course he pairs that with a 35mm stem.
> 
> ...


@chomxxo .....so basically you position yourself as the one true expert and other experts and coaches views are flawed and not deserving of consideration..?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Once again getting personal which is off topic. And I don't think you actually know how to speak about bikes without an appeal to expert fallacy so I'll overlook it, lol.
> 
> Greg Minaar is 6'3". For years he went to the extra trouble of custom-extending the reach of his V10 8mm from its stock 490mm. He custom extended the chain stays by 5mm so that was important to him too. Of course he pairs that with a 35mm stem.
> 
> ...


Somebody disagreeing with you isn't attacking you. Or making the suggestion that since you seem to have much more difficulty with longer stems than other riders it might be because a technique, isn't personally attacking you. But claiming you are being personally attacked is a way of deflecting.

Isn't it sort of hypocritical to say I am using an expert fallacy and then in the next paragraph talk about the GOAT in a discipline that has zero relation to XC racing? BTW have you ever raced DH? How about ridden a DH? If that answer to either of those is no, then perhaps you should admit you do not have a clue about DH bikes and drop that line of discussion.

Isn't this thread titled "World Cup Equipment", not "mediocre master rider equipment". Riders like myself and yourself who have massive flaws in our riding shouldn't really be telling world cup riders they are doing it wrong. For either of us to consider telling a rider like Chris Blevins that he would be faster if he ran a shorter stem is pretty rich. Particularly when he literally does stuff on a bike that I dream of being able to do.

As a "mediocre master rider" I can say with a high degree of confidence that a world cup set-up does not work for me. I would never attempt to set my bike up like Anton Cooper. I have done a lot of bike fits for the world cup riders and the guys at least all seem to like longer and lower stems than what I would use. Even those on bikes with a really long reach (Norco, Specialized, Mondraker) use long stems.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Circlip said:


> A couple of years ago Kerschbaumer was exactly where Cink is right now. Giving up just a little to the more competent descenders when the course points down, but more than making up for it by being arguably the strongest rider on longer climbs and especially at higher elevations when applicable. Is that sustainable? Has any rider managed a lengthy period at or near the top with that specific competency as their defining attribute?


I remember watching him in La Bresse ride MVDP off his wheel on a 2% fire road climb. In 2018 he had a period where he was just at another level.

It is pretty common for riders to have a period where they are unbeatable. For some it is a short period of time others it is longer. Why for a lot this only happens once is one of those mysteries of sport.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

LMN said:


> I want to report a murder


I don't get it


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Catharine too dropped 10mm from her stem length when she got the new bike. 70mm to 60mm on a medium.
> 
> Interestingly, riders with long legs are actually going to longer stems on these new steep seat angle bikes. The 10-15mm longer top tube doesn't make up for the 30mm further forward the seat sits.


Has your wife tried a small with around a 90 stem? Not sure the reach diff from medium to small.


----------



## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

tick_magnet said:


> I noticed that Jenny ran Fast Traks even in the front and was descending pretty fast. She did have a few exciting moments though. Other Specialized riders like Sarrou and Frei looked like they were on proper mud tires.


Did we watch the same race? Jenny was a complete **** show on the descents all due to the fast tracks. She would loose 5 seconds per lap in that one grass/mud switchback vs lecomte. Not to mention the Many wrecks she had. Also Likely due to those tires.

She would have been on top of lecompte otherwise. That's not to say loana didn't have another minute to give.

Most of the folks on Ralph and Ray were a hot mess as well.

Flukinger claimed to be on a "dirty Dan" and he was ripping peoples legs off on the descents having a field day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

LMN said:


> Mud-tires are always tricky. If you go really old school, like a Maxxis Medusa you get amazing grip in mud, but they are terrifying on any kind of hard surface and offer no grip on wet rocks or roots. The best tire I have used in true mud is a Maxxis beaver. They do a good job of walking that balance between mud performance and mud performance.
> 
> Honestly, I thought Forecasters would be enough for those conditions but I was wrong. I had pulled Beavers out of the tire kits, time to put them back in.


Forekasters do not shed mud (as much as I love them. They are a wet tire, not a mud tire. Magical if conditions are greasy roots and rocks and active rain/flooding. On a clay mud course, they just fill past the knob and become 6 pound boat anchors.

You should have seen my bike at marathon nationals!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Facts:
The new spark is far heavier than previous years race sparks. By around 1.5 kg ( I have verified weights. )


There is a reason the AXS dropper boat anchor is suddenly replaced by a WW short dropper post. Otherwise it would be a 23.0 lbs specd bike. You would be out there trying to race women at a 3 pound disadvantage in some instances! No way are you overcoming a 3 pound penalty against a field this strong. And that’s a lot of weight on a 150 pound man. It’s enormous on someone the size of lecomte. 


The spark RC was at its lightest when the tires were 2.25, travel was 100, and shifters didn’t go BEEP BOOP. 




Opinion. It’s the better bike to own and ride and most beginner-expert class riders would be faster on it. Most of them can’t descend for Chit. Mostly due to over braking, which is reduced greatly by a confidence inspiring bike. 

Opinion: Trek was the worst thing to happen to Neff other than her injury. She had the skills to dominate on her old KROSS HARDTAIL. Then she is forced on a heavy softail (poorly executed) and has no access to a real hardtail for races she needs it. 


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

LMN said:


> I want to report a murder


Lame.

Sarou runs a 60-70.
Batten runs a 60.
Schurter runs strong backsweep which is virtually <60

Since I asked a couple times and you still clearly don't know how to not make this personal and insulting, ignore list for you.

The industry has passed a vocal minority by and there no point in arguing it anymore.

How about those mud tires?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J21 (Dec 11, 2020)

FJSnoozer said:


> Did we watch the same race? Jenny was a complete **** show on the descents all due to the fast tracks. She would loose 5 seconds per lap in that one grass/mud switchback vs lecomte. Not to mention the Many wrecks she had. Also Likely due to those tires.
> 
> She would have been on top of lecompte otherwise. That's not to say loana didn't have another minute to give.
> 
> ...


Lecomte didn't seem on tip-top form this in Les Gets, but maybe adding to her not seeming as strong on the climbs and pedalling bits was that she was the only woman at the front of the race on FULL muds. More rolling resistance with a true mud tire going up those hard packed gravel climbs than a FastTrak or other pseudo XC mud tire. Trade off for real muds seemed to definitely be worth it though in both races, especially given how bad the grass got though!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

FJSnoozer said:


> Facts:
> The new spark is far heavier than previous years race sparks. By around 1.5 kg ( I have verified weights. )
> 
> There is a reason the AXS dropper boat anchor is suddenly replaced by a WW short dropper post. Otherwise it would be a 23.0 lbs specd bike. You would be out there trying to race women at a 3 pound disadvantage in some instances! No way are you overcoming a 3 pound penalty against a field this strong. And that's a lot of weight on a 150 pound man. It's enormous on someone the size of lecomte.
> ...


I'd have to see a bike on a scale to believe that.

Given that the fork is 100-150g heavier, the new bar is slightly lighter and everything else is the same, the frame would have to be 2.5lbs+ heavier than the old one. Sorry, that isn't the case. No way Scott's WC XCO frame gained 2.5lbs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'd have to see a bike on a scale to believe that.
> 
> Given that the fork is 100-150g heavier, the new bar is slightly lighter and everything else is the same, the frame would have to be 2.5lbs+ heavier than the old one. Sorry, that isn't the case. No way Scott's WC XCO frame gained 2.5lbs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Might be that much heavier than the 2016 race bike.

I recall Nino's Olympic bike in 2016 being claimed around 20.7lbs. (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nino-...00-bike-check-vallnord-xc-world-cup-2016.html ) When you look at the current bike there has been a lot of areas of weight gain (frame, fork, wheels, tire, drivetrain, seatpost, power meter) all of those things add up. Claimed weight on the new bike is 23.3lbs (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-nino-schurters-new-scott-spark-rc-2022.html ) That is 2.5lbs which is 1.15kg.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Lame.
> 
> Sarou runs a 60-70.
> Batten runs a 60.
> ...


Batten runs an 80, plus I expect women to run shorter as they have shorter torsos than men. I know you like to ignore facts to spread your ignorant fit ideologies.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Batten runs an 80, plus I expect women to run shorter as they have shorter torsos than men.


I am surprised she uses that long of a stem. I did a bike fit for Haley a couple of years back, she has long legs and a short torso. I would think she would be running a pretty short stem. Do you know if she is on a small or medium?

To answer your earlier question if Catharine tried a small. The quick answer is no. Last year when the new frame there was real limit availability, you couldn't get two to try. And this year she really only had four weeks to remember how to mountain bike again before the first world cup. Not the time to be experimenting.

But over the years she has switched between small and mediums. When the new Oiz came out she had both a small and medium frame to test. Obviously she ran appropriate stem length for each size. Both bikes worked well for her, and had subtle but different handling characteristics. Ultimately she went with medium, but the deciding factor was the medium could fit two bottles where as the small only had one.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> Lame.
> 
> Sarou runs a 60-70.
> Batten runs a 60.
> ...


Serious question. Why is there so much emotional investment in this for you? Unless this is your full time job, this is a hobby and if you are not having fun and getting angry, then maybe it's time to do some soul searching.

I remember you had said in the past that the pros with their "ridiculous" setups might influence the rest of us to do crazy things. So maybe you see yourself as a crusader for the rest of us. I can respect that. But since you made that comment, I have been paying attention to bike setups on my local trails, among my friends, and among people who race XC in my area, and apart for one or two pro elites, I have not seen anyone else run a world cup setup. In fact, I've been criticized several times for running a -17 stem. I am wondering if this is a non-existent crises?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Lame.
> 
> Sarou runs a 60-70.
> Batten runs a 60.
> ...


Nino runs a virtual 90, again you must not understand what virtual means. The shape of the cockpit looks odd but it's still a virtual 90 because there is really no stem length. It's not virtual <60 because you say it is, the backsweep is what makes it a virtual 90.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

tick_magnet said:


> Serious question. Why is there so much emotional investment in this for you? Unless this is your full time job, this is a hobby and if you are not having fun and getting angry, then maybe it's time to do some soul searching.
> 
> I remember you had said in the past that the pros with their "ridiculous" setups might influence the rest of us to do crazy things. So maybe you see yourself as a crusader for the rest of us. I can respect that. But since you made that comment, I have been paying attention to bike setups on my local trails, among my friends, and among people who race XC in my area, and apart for one or two pro elites, I have not seen anyone else run a world cup setup. In fact, I've been criticized several times for running a -17 stem. I am wondering if this is a non-existent crises?


He puts anybody that points out the flaws in his thinking on his "ignore" list-he's the poster boy for cognitive bias. It's amusing with the flawed logic arriving at details that aren't the reality of most of the World Cup pro setups but it makes for comical reading. He's in a XC forum constantly talking about DH setups, right there tells us all we need to know about him.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

MessagefromTate said:


> He puts anybody that points out the flaws in his thinking on his "ignore" list-he's the poster boy for cognitive bias. It's amusing with the flawed logic arriving at details that aren't the reality of most of the World Cup pro setups but it makes for comical reading. He's in a XC forum constantly talking about DH setups, right there tells us all we need to know about him.


Look at his bike, tells you all you need to know.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

chomxxo said:


> Lame.
> 
> Sarou runs a 60-70.
> Batten runs a 60.
> ...


Dude, time for a bit of self-reflection. Nobody is getting very personal with you; but other participants are being quite patient and respectful--especially compared to typical internet discourse. Hope you get a good ride in today.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Back to equipment talk, will trail bikes win gold, will hard tails be used?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Back to equipment talk, will trail bikes win gold, will hard tails be used?


I don't think hardtails will be used. I also don't think the winning bike is going to be approaching 24lbs.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Not a lot of saddle to bar drop on Nino's bike.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

LMN said:


> Might be that much heavier than the 2016 race bike.
> 
> I recall Nino's Olympic bike in 2016 being claimed around 20.7lbs. (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nino-...00-bike-check-vallnord-xc-world-cup-2016.html ) When you look at the current bike there has been a lot of areas of weight gain (frame, fork, wheels, tire, drivetrain, seatpost, power meter) all of those things add up. Claimed weight on the new bike is 23.3lbs (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-nino-schurters-new-scott-spark-rc-2022.html ) That is 2.5lbs which is 1.15kg.


He also won the WC overall and Worlds on a bike siginificantly heavier than that in 2019; the wheels he was running are over 1500g.

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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Not a lot of saddle to bar drop on Nino's bike.
> View attachment 1938535


I'm guessing that's more an optical


NordieBoy said:


> Not a lot of saddle to bar drop on Nino's bike.
> View attachment 1938535


I'm guessing because of the camera angle it appears that way, I mean the camera is not a true side view but instead coming up from the ground.









Gallery: Nino Schurter's 2022 Scott Spark RC World Cup


UCI Mountain Bike World Cup, Nino Schurter was delivered a new Scott Spark RC World Cup just ahead of this past weekend’s World Cup race in Leogang, Austria. The eight-time world champion’s new 2022 bike features 120mm of suspension with updated features including an integrated shock and...




www.velonews.com


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nino is quite an interesting character to have followed over the past decade. He's certainly had more say in what his bike setup was than any other racer I can recall, and practically influenced the 27.5 trend by himself, for better or worse.

To be honest I'm not sure if that photo well-represents his saddle-bar drop, but I doubt it's more than a couple of inches.

I don't know that the new Spark RC is actually heavier than the old one. If we compare these two articles of old/new, the first one quoted by Yanick his mechanic himself, both Sparks are in the low 22-lb range (and his past model clearly had 120mm travel already). If we look closely we see that the past model was set up sans-dropper, where the new one is set up full-time with a dropper post. Could this mean that the new Spark is actually lighter rather than the continuing rumors that it's heavier? The top-end frame is advertised as being 1870g, so again, I think this weight rumor is probably bias against the new product and not fact.

Bike check - Nino Schurter's SCOTT Spark RC 900 World Cup | ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine

Pro bike: Nino Schurter's all-new Scott Spark



NordieBoy said:


> Not a lot of saddle to bar drop on Nino's bike.
> View attachment 1938535


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

OK here is the best shot I've found of the new "Maxxis Severe" 2.25 tire, here on Kate's bike.

Pretty interesting tread concept for a mud tire if you zoom in: a unified center line for fast rolling (and possibly good steering in the mud), but wide-spaced side knobs.


















Les Gets World Cup: One to Remember


Unforgettable. That’s the one-word description for last weekend’s Les Gets World Cup round.



www.maxxis.com


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

FJSnoozer said:


> Did we watch the same race? Jenny was a complete **** show on the descents all due to the fast tracks. She would loose 5 seconds per lap in that one grass/mud switchback vs lecomte. Not to mention the Many wrecks she had. Also Likely due to those tires.
> 
> She would have been on top of lecompte otherwise. That's not to say loana didn't have another minute to give.
> 
> ...


This picture shows the sidewall markings on Mathias Fluckiger's front tyre. It's labelled as Schwalbe "First Ride" (blue lettering) which apparently signifies that it is a prototype development tyre and has a tanwall side wall.










It definitely isn't the 29 x 2.35" retail Schwalbe Dirty Dan downhill mud tyre. The most noticeable difference is that both tyres have offset tread blocks on the side. The tyres that Mathias Fluckiger were riding have an offset tread block every other block on the outside whilst this picture of a retail Schwalbe Dirty Dan 29x2.35" tyre has an offset tread block with two blocks in between each offset tread block.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Could it be a prototype Rocket Ron 29x2.35?












WR304 said:


> This picture shows the sidewall markings on Mathias Fluckiger's front tyre. It's labelled as Schwalbe "First Ride" (blue lettering) which apparently signifies that it is a prototype development tyre and has a tanwall side wall.
> 
> View attachment 1938552
> 
> ...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Could it be a prototype Rocket Ron 29x2.35?


There was a short pre race interview on Red Bull TV where Mathias Fluckiger said to the interviewer that it was a "Dirty Dan" tyre he would be using. There are some clear similarities between the two tyres so it could be an as yet unreleased lighter XC version of the Dirty Dan


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> He also won the WC overall and Worlds on a bike siginificantly heavier than that in 2019; the wheels he was running are over 1500g.


Not arguing that. But it should be noted that the dominant rider in 2019 (MVPD) used a set-up very similar to Nino's 2016 bike.

But when you compare the 2016 bike and 2021 bike the increase in weight is not insignificant. 2lbs is typically the difference between a hardtail and a FS.

I just question if for a rider of Nino's skill level if the extra descending capabilities of bike can make up for the time loss due to weight on the climbs. That 2lbs is probably costing him 30s on the climbs over the course of the race. So he needs to make that up and then some on the descents.

I did an analysis of the Tokyo test event and the racers are looking at about 15 minutes of total descending for their race. Nino descended pretty damm fast on his old bike, for him to put 30s into himself is a big ask.

Just as a personal example the last two days I did a 7 minute descent on two completely different bikes. One was on my 140mm trail bike with 2.4 Rekons on it, the other was on the my Alma with a highpost and 2.25 Aspens. Time difference, 20 seconds. I would say for a rider of my limited ability that more bike/more tire is going to make a bigger difference than it would to a world class XC racer.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Courses from 2016 haven't change much, have they? Back then he was riding his 9.4kg bike and nowadays he is riding a 10.58kg bike, as quoted on several sites. 

Those 1.18kgs are huge, I can't see how the new bike is faster, specially as courses remain fairly equal and back then his bike was not a limiter. What are we missing with the huge increase in weight.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

peabody said:


> I'm guessing that's more an optical
> 
> I'm guessing because of the camera angle it appears that way, I mean the camera is not a true side view but instead coming up from the ground.


Yep, was allowing for that and it's still not much bar drop.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Yep, was allowing for that and it's still not much bar drop.


Then apparently you didn't look at the link I posted of a true side photo and it's quite aggressive, as it's always been. You think he's going to change his position a month before olympics ?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

TDLover said:


> Courses from 2016 haven't change much, have they? Back then he was riding his 9.4kg bike and nowadays he is riding a 10.58kg bike, as quoted on several sites.
> 
> Those 1.18kgs are huge, I can't see how the new bike is faster, specially as courses remain fairly equal and back then his bike was not a limiter. What are we missing with the huge increase in weight.


I think a lot of bike development is actually focused on two courses, Nova Mesto and MSA. Both courses are extremely rough and challenging, courses that a more capable bike is an advantage. Those are the two courses that people want to win on.

Nobody is developing a bike to win at Albstadt.


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## arca_tern (Apr 6, 2004)

LMN said:


> I think a lot of bike development is actually focused on two courses, Nova Mesto and MSA. Both courses are extremely rough and challenging, courses that a more capable bike is an advantage. Those are the two courses that people want to win on.
> 
> Nobody is developing a bike to win at Albstadt.


I haven't looked at the Tokyo course yet (shame on me!) but where does it sit in terms of technical difficulty on a scale of "Albstadt to MSA" ? Assuming it's dry, what kind of tyre choices are fair to assume people will make?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

peabody said:


> Then apparently you didn't look at the link I posted of a true side photo and it's quite aggressive, as it's always been. You think he's going to change his position a month before olympics ?


I run a 76mm drop and Nino's looks "normal" to me.


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## ManxShred (Jun 18, 2008)

Tokyo looks hard, very technical.








Tokyo Olympic XCO course looks really, really hard - Canadian Cycling Magazine


First look: 2020 Olympic XCO course. Japan goes all out with steep climbs, big drops and what can only be described as boulder gardens.




cyclingmagazine.ca







https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-full-lap-of-the-2020-tokyo-olympic-xc-course.html


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

In a word: deflection. It's the consequence of ignoring reality and focusing on weight only.



TDLover said:


> Courses from 2016 haven't change much, have they? Back then he was riding his 9.4kg bike and nowadays he is riding a 10.58kg bike, as quoted on several sites.
> 
> Those 1.18kgs are huge, I can't see how the new bike is faster, specially as courses remain fairly equal and back then his bike was not a limiter. What are we missing with the huge increase in weight.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ManxShred said:


> Tokyo looks hard, very technical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Technical but not crazy rough. It doesn't have the bike swallowing bomb holes that develop from years of racing that MSA or Nova Mesto have. The first couple of years Nova Mesto was actually quite a smooth course, but thousands and thousands of laps have turned it into a brutally rough course.

The Olympic course is smooth enough that riders entertained the idea of racing a hardtail, a few even are racing hardtails.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> Technical but not crazy rough. It doesn't have the bike swallowing bomb holes that develop from years of racing that MSA or Nova Mesto have. The first couple of years Nova Mesto was actually quite a smooth course, but thousands and thousands of laps have turned it into a brutally rough course.
> 
> The Olympic course is smooth enough that riders entertained the idea of racing a hardtail, a few even are racing hardtails.


Well a few of them did in Rio and I tough the rock gardens on that coursed justified a FS. But, also the long smooth sections also made a strong point for HT bikes. But who won the race was the better riders, not the bikes...both of them brand new BTW...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Well a few of them did in Rio and I tough the rock gardens on that coursed justified a FS. But, also the long smooth sections also made a strong point for HT bikes. But who won the race was the better riders, not the bikes...both of them brand new BTW...


Brand new bike is the norm for the Olympics. Catharine races Rio on a brand new hardtail.

Was Jenny's bike brand new? She raced a 27.5 Spark, I don't believe they made those for 2016 model line.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

I could be mistaken by a bit, but the past generation Spark was launched near the La Bresse World Cup and it was a slippery race. Nino lost to Julien. 2017 was the Model Year even if it was launched on 2016. IDK if it was 27.5, Jenny did won Rio on that Spark.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

carlostruco said:


> I could be mistaken by a bit, but the past generation Spark was launched near the La Bresse World Cup and it was a slippery race. Nino lost to Julien. 2017 was the Model Year even if it was launched on 2016. IDK if it was 27.5, Jenny did won Rio on that Spark.


The 2017 model Spark RC came in the 900 (29) and 700 (27.5) variants. Jenny won on the 27.5. I think it was discontinued in 2018, likely due to lack of market interest. And yes, Nino had a relative dumpster fire of a race at La Bresse for the debut of the 29 version after winning the first two rounds on the old 27.5 with tubulars.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

...and, as I find myself repeating again, 2017 was Schurter's "Perfect Season" on his 29er. Some folks are really reaching now, but talk yourself out, by all means...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Guys, I'm drooling over that color scheme (orange)









Bicis de los pro: las Ghost Lector FS olímpicas de Terpstra y Bohé


Las espectaculares Ghost Lector FS de las dos corredoras del equipo oficial que estarán en la línea de salida de los Juegos Olímpicos de Tokio




esmtb.com


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

carlostruco said:


> Guys, I'm drooling over that color scheme (orange)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love the bikes, but do not like the wheels. I'm sure they're not awful like the Spinergys I had back in the day, but tensioned spokes are so much more elegant in my opinion. These and the Syncros wheels that Scott is using are also very expensive for something that has to just be binned if something goes wrong with it. They really are a race only type of product. I wonder if there's going to be a trend toward more stuff like this, given just how specialized XCO really is compared with everyday mountain biking.


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## Renzo7 (Mar 25, 2015)

carlostruco said:


> Guys, I'm drooling over that color scheme (orange)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! That color combination looks awesome  

Sent from my LM-X525 using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> The 2017 model Spark RC came in the 900 (29) and 700 (27.5) variants. Jenny won on the 27.5. I think it was discontinued in 2018, likely due to lack of market interest. And yes, Nino had a relative dumpster fire of a race at La Bresse for the debut of the 29 version after winning the first two rounds on the old 27.5 with tubulars.


I remember that race now. I seem to recall he flatted and then his spare wheels had the wrong tire for the day on. I think they were probably racing the new bike before their full shipment of tires had arrived.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> Love the bikes, but do not like the wheels. I'm sure they're not awful like the Spinergys I had back in the day, but tensioned spokes are so much more elegant in my opinion. These and the Syncros wheels that Scott is using are also very expensive for something that has to just be binned if something goes wrong with it. They really are a race only type of product. I wonder if there's going to be a trend toward more stuff like this, given just how specialized XCO really is compared with everyday mountain biking.


The bike definitely pops!! I don't know if those wheels are any good but they certainly are eye catching.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

LMN said:


> Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


Yeah I noticed that the Epic Evo frame is lighter than the standard Epic. And a bonus for regular consumers like me is that there is no Brain shock so no associated service headaches.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

peabody said:


> Every time I come in this thread it's you patting yourself on the back based on your warped sense of reality. You must be a joy to be around, in fact I know the exact personality you are.


It's time to stop feeding the troll.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

cal_len1 said:


> It's time to stop feeding the troll.


I agree. Peabody should've been banned long ago and I continue to report his posts.

There are some that are so vehemently against facts that they'll continue to interrupt this thread with personal attacks. I'm quite happy with what's being produced for racers today, admittedly I had nothing to do with it, but I am quite pleased, yep.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> I agree. Peabody should've been banned long ago and I continue to report his posts.
> 
> There are some that are so vehemently against facts that they'll continue to interrupt this thread with personal attacks. I'm quite happy with what's being produced for racers today, admittedly I had nothing to do with it, but I am quite pleased, yep.


Lol I should be banned because I don't agree with you&#8230;.

the problem is you think your opinion is fact.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


I haven't seen one of these in person. How easily do you think a cable could be routed for a remote? It's a bike that is already on my short list for the future; a remote would probably push it to the top.

Back the the world cup thread though... My understanding is that Specialized takes racer sponsorship as marketing very seriously. They wouldn't want someone like Rissveds to win without a Brain after like 18 years of saying the Brain is the best. My (evidence free) conjecture is that the current mechanical Brain will be replaced in the near future with some kind of AXS integrated Brain. Maybe it will be something you could configure to be controllable from the handlebar, but they can market it as "rider head mounted" and call it the Brain RHM.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

RiKMc said:


> I haven't seen one of these in person. How easily do you think a cable could be routed for a remote? It's a bike that is already on my short list for the future; a remote would probably push it to the top.
> 
> Back the the world cup thread though... My understanding is that Specialized takes racer sponsorship as marketing very seriously. They wouldn't want someone like Rissveds to win without a Brain after like 18 years of saying the Brain is the best. My (evidence free) conjecture is that the current mechanical Brain will be replaced in the near future with some kind of AXS integrated Brain. Maybe it will be something you could configure to be controllable from the handlebar, but they can market it as "rider head mounted" and call it the Brain RHM.


There is an Epic Evo thread in the Specialized forum where people have discussed a remote lockout. I haven't followed that discussion for a while, but I recall it seemed like kind of a pain.

Yeah, the Brain is interesting. I like the concept but it has such a notorious history of failure on the consumer bikes that at this point, the burden of proof is on Specialized to show that it's reliable. At this point, I think it may cost them as many sales as it gains them.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

peabody said:


> Lol I should be banned because I don't agree with you&#8230;.


Try to find a way to disagree with facts without making personal attacks.


----------



## arca_tern (Apr 6, 2004)

LMN said:


> Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


Epic evo, new blur tr are top of my list as new new whip. Wanting to get back into racing (bc bike race, silver star 24hr, couple bc cups xco) after years of sitting at a desk but also want to have fun on the trails too. Not to derail, but will follow your findings with interest.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

cal_len1 said:


> It's time to stop feeding the troll.


Agreed. The ignore function on this forum works really well. It is too bad, he actually use to add quite a bit of thoughtful discussion. I wonder what happened.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> I haven't seen one of these in person. How easily do you think a cable could be routed for a remote? It's a bike that is already on my short list for the future; a remote would probably push it to the top.
> 
> Back the the world cup thread though... My understanding is that Specialized takes racer sponsorship as marketing very seriously. They wouldn't want someone like Rissveds to win without a Brain after like 18 years of saying the Brain is the best. My (evidence free) conjecture is that the current mechanical Brain will be replaced in the near future with some kind of AXS integrated Brain. Maybe it will be something you could configure to be controllable from the handlebar, but they can market it as "rider head mounted" and call it the Brain RHM.


Specialized Factory versus teams whose bikes sponsor is Specialized are two different things, with different obligations.
That being said, I am sure Specialized would be absolutely tickled if someone won a WC on their EVO.

Taking a look at the bike it looks like there is a port near the rear shock for a cable to come out. But there isn't anything up front. If you like living dangerously drills are wonderful at making holes.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> Specialized Factory versus teams whose bikes sponsor is Specialized are two different things, with different obligations.
> That being said, I am sure Specialized would be absolutely tickled if someone won a WC on their EVO.
> 
> Taking a look at the bike it looks like there is a port near the rear shock for a cable to come out. But there isn't anything up front. If you like living dangerously drills are wonderful at making holes.


Thanks. That port might be what makes me get that bike. Going down the rabbit hole I found this in the Epic Evo manual. So there we go, reading the manual FTW!








I'm sure you're right about Specialized being thrilled if the Evo won, in the sense they would run with it. I just don't think they're encouraging it. If you go to non-factory teams (not just Specialized), you see more off label use of bikes, and sometimes it's not that well-publicized. Simone Avondetto winning the U23 race in Les Gets on a Top Fuel didn't get much coverage that I saw.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> Thanks. That port might be what makes me get that bike. Going down the rabbit hole I found this in the Epic Evo manual. So there we go, reading the manual FTW!
> View attachment 1938834
> 
> I'm sure you're right about Specialized being thrilled if the Evo won, in the sense they would run with it. I just don't think they're encouraging it. If you go to non-factory teams (not just Specialized), you see more off label use of bikes, and sometimes it's not that well-publicized. Simone Avondetto winning the U23 race in Les Gets on a Top Fuel didn't get much coverage that I saw.


If you are going to go that way, get the Squid lock from Orbea. Their lockout leaver creates a middle setting in the rear shock. You should be able to buy the leaver and install it on any bike.

Here is a review: Orbea Oiz 2021 Review | A race bike with an ace up its sleeve


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


The 2021 Specialized Epic Evo uses a 190x40mm rear shock. That's exactly the size that is used on a 100mm travel Orbea Oiz so you've probably got a shed full of the lockout rear shocks that will bolt straight on!

All you need to do is run the lockout cable through that hole under the top tube and then open up the head tube rubber grommet so that there is space for four cables (cable for XTR rear derailleur, cable dropper post, rear brake hose and the remote lockout cable). For a lockout lever an Orbea Squidlock off an Orbea Oiz should do the job.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> The 2021 Specialized Epic Evo uses a 190x40mm rear shock. That's exactly the size that is used on a 100mm travel Orbea Oiz so you've probably got a shed full of the lockout rear shocks that will bolt straight on!
> 
> All you need to do is run the lockout cable through that hole under the top tube and then open up the head tube rubber grommet so that there is space for four cables (cable for XTR rear derailleur, cable dropper post, rear brake hose and the remote lockout cable). For a lockout lever an Orbea Squidlock off an Orbea Oiz should do the job.


Well isn't that convenient!

Throw on one of the new 34SC with a 110mm travel and I think it would be a nicely balanced bike.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

WR304 said:


> The 2021 Specialized Epic Evo uses a 190x40mm rear shock. That's exactly the size that is used on a 100mm travel Orbea Oiz so you've probably got a shed full of the lockout rear shocks that will bolt straight on!
> 
> All you need to do is run the lockout cable through that hole under the top tube and then open up the head tube rubber grommet so that there is space for four cables (cable for XTR rear derailleur, cable dropper post, rear brake hose and the remote lockout cable). For a lockout lever an Orbea Squidlock off an Orbea Oiz should do the job.


It may bolt on, but ride like garbage. The leverage ratio curve on those two bikes are about as different as they can be. The Epic would probably blow through the first half of the travel really easily. However, a trip to the friendly neighborhood suspension shop (everyone should have one) should fix that right up.

I think three position remotes like the Squidlock or Scott's system are just what we need to make 120 (or more) travel bikes work well in XC. In the past I've found that if you set up a bike with more than 100mm of travel to pedal well, you end up only using 100mm. A good three position lockout could theoretically help with that. I'd like to see a system that changes spring rate in addition to damping. Maybe the remote could reduce negative air volume in the mid position (in addition to firming up the damping). That would be sweet.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

RiKMc said:


> It may bolt on, but ride like garbage. The leverage ratio curve on those two bikes are about as different as they can be. The Epic would probably blow through the first half of the travel really easily. However, a trip to the friendly neighborhood suspension shop (everyone should have one) should fix that right up.
> 
> I think three position remotes like the Squidlock or Scott's system are just what we need to make 120 (or more) travel bikes work well in XC. In the past I've found that if you set up a bike with more than 100mm of travel to pedal well, you end up only using 100mm. A good three position lockout could theoretically help with that. I'd like to see a system that changes spring rate in addition to damping. Maybe the remote could reduce negative air volume in the mid position (in addition to firming up the damping). That would be sweet.


For a 2021 Specialized Epic Evo sourcing a remote lockout shock in the correct dimensions isn't easy. I had a look into this a bit ago and the OEM Fox EVOL shock off an Orbea Oiz or the OEM shock off an older Mondraker F Podium in the correct dimensions is about all I could find. There are plenty of shocks without remote lockout that fit, but hardly anything with a remote lockout.

Some of the shocks without remote lockout can be converted to a remote lockout though so that would be another option.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> It may bolt on, but ride like garbage. The leverage ratio curve on those two bikes are about as different as they can be. The Epic would probably blow through the first half of the travel really easily. However, a trip to the friendly neighborhood suspension shop (everyone should have one) should fix that right up.
> 
> I think three position remotes like the Squidlock or Scott's system are just what we need to make 120 (or more) travel bikes work well in XC. In the past I've found that if you set up a bike with more than 100mm of travel to pedal well, you end up only using 100mm. A good three position lockout could theoretically help with that. I'd like to see a system that changes spring rate in addition to damping. Maybe the remote could reduce negative air volume in the mid position (in addition to firming up the damping). That would be sweet.


At one the WC I prepped a Giant with Fox Live on it. Pretty cool, technology. The rider is a good 12kg lighter than me, yet I could sprint around on her bike with zero suspension movement.

I have heard that the generation-2 of live valve is going to be lighter and fit on any bike. A pretty clean way to make a 120 or more XC bike work.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> At one the WC I prepped a Giant with Fox Live on it. Pretty cool, technology. The rider is a good 12kg lighter than me, yet I could sprint around on her bike with zero suspension movement.
> 
> I have heard that the generation-2 of live valve is going to be lighter and fit on any bike. A pretty clean way to make a 120 or more XC bike work.


So when I'm working on my wife to buy a new bike, I'll start with proposing a $4000 Specialized frame that I need to immediately change the shock out on. Then I'll move to live valve. After that I'll come down to a new Blur and it'll seem like a steal.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

TDLover said:


> Courses from 2016 haven't change much, have they? Back then he was riding his 9.4kg bike and nowadays he is riding a 10.58kg bike, as quoted on several sites.
> 
> Those 1.18kgs are huge, I can't see how the new bike is faster, specially as courses remain fairly equal and back then his bike was not a limiter. What are we missing with the huge increase in weight.


Glad to see someone gets it. Also, there are bike checks where his lightest previous model 29 was even lighter. The spread is closer to what I stated. "Almost 1.5kg"

That much weight on a female World Cup racer is devastating on these climber's courses. Let's just keep adding to the denominator and pretending that it can be made up on the downhill. Until you have more dual slalom, and wider lines for downhill passing, this will rarely be advantageous. I feel for Kate Courtney.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

RiKMc said:


> So when I'm working on my wife to buy a new bike, I'll start with proposing a $4000 Specialized frame that I need to immediately change the shock out on. Then I'll move to live valve. After that I'll come down to a new Blur and it'll seem like a steal.


All you do is send the shock to fox and they swap the cap. It's not very expensive.

I also have like 5 brand new fox dual remotes if anyone needs one for free!

There is also a new blur on the showroom floor here in Austin. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

FJSnoozer said:


> Glad to see someone gets it. Also, there are bike checks where his lightest previous model 29 was even lighter. The spread is closer to what I stated. "Almost 1.5kg"
> 
> That much weight on a female World Cup racer is devastating on these climber's courses. Let's just keep adding to the denominator and pretending that it can be made up on the downhill. Until you have more dual slalom, and wider lines for downhill passing, this will rarely be advantageous. I feel for Kate Courtney.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And it is not like the second the trail tips downhill these big travel bikes are faster. It takes a fairly significant level of gnar for them to really have an advantage. When you start adding up how much those sections up you are getting maybe 30 to 60s on a 15 minute lap where the more capable bike is faster. And honestly I think that is a stretch.

But you cannot underestimate confidence. If a section is at the edge of your ability level, nerves will impact how you ride the rest of the lap.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

LMN said:


> Just finished a couple of days of bike building (2021 bikes showed up while I was away) and one of the bikes I built was Catharine's Epic Evo. I am surprised that nobody is trying one of these at the world cup level. They are light, pedal well, and have that bit more travel that people are testing nowadays. The only thing missing is a remote lockout system but I think that could be easily configured.


I'm thinking about that for next season to get something a bit lighter than my current bike, the frame weight on the Evo is really impressive.
I would run it with a 110 mm fork and the flip chip in the high position, should give a 67.5 head angle and 75.5 seat angle and a bit more reach than the regular Evo.

The only thing I am hesitant about is the rear lockout, I don't really like a full lockout on the rear, think it takes away too much of the traction. Most likely I would just have a remote for the fork and leave the rear shock open, or adjust the wire tension so it is only a half lock in the rear when the front is fully locked out. Otherwise for middle setting there is also the dt swiss lockout lever that works with Fox, I used that for my Orbea (back in 2017).


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Gallery: Erin Huck’s Scott Spark 900 RC World Cup


Erin Huck stunned crowds at the 2021 mountain bike national championships in Winter Park when she crossed the finish line more than two minutes clear of runner-up Alexis Skarda. Huck, a Scott-Shimano-Stans rider, is riding a 2021 Scott Spark 900 RC World Cup Contessa Signature equipped with...




www.velonews.com





Has this been covered?

So...why the "old bike" if you are Scott sposored?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Goran_injo said:


> Gallery: Erin Huck’s Scott Spark 900 RC World Cup
> 
> 
> Erin Huck stunned crowds at the 2021 mountain bike national championships in Winter Park when she crossed the finish line more than two minutes clear of runner-up Alexis Skarda. Huck, a Scott-Shimano-Stans rider, is riding a 2021 Scott Spark 900 RC World Cup Contessa Signature equipped with...
> ...


Not on the Factory team and very limited availability of the new bike. As far as I can tell, only Frishie's riders are on the new bike.

That bike is probably 22.5lbs as it sits. The difference in weight between it and the Scott-Sram bike is primarily due to component selection.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

Goran_injo said:


> Has this been covered?
> 
> So...why the "old bike" if you are Scott sposored?


She probably also hasn't ridden one, so sticking to the bike she has several years on is probably a better call anyway. It's not like the old one is slow.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

RiKMc said:


> She probably also hasn't ridden one, so sticking to the bike she has several years on is probably a better call anyway. It's not like the old one is slow.


Yep, that was my point. Since not factory pressed, she might have an option not to use the new one and force adapt.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> I remember that race now. I seem to recall he flatted and then his spare wheels had the wrong tire for the day on. I think they were probably racing the new bike before their full shipment of tires had arrived.


Yeah...Nino was still racing tubulars and the spare wheel had a clincher...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy...









Bicis de los pro: las American Eagle Atlanta y Flow de Fini, Belomoina y Tauber


Habrá 3 bicicletas American Eagle en los Juegos Olímpicos de Tokio. Una doble y dos rígidas. Así son.




esmtb.com


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> Guys, I'm drooling over that color scheme (orange)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ghosts have had their share of fubar looking/designed bikes, but this one is as nice as they get.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Goran_injo said:


> Ghosts have had their share of fubar looking/designed bikes, but this one is as nice as they get.


What a bike!
Looks completely different than anything else out there.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Not a World Cup racer, but more eye candy...









Bicis de los pro: Wilier Urta SLR de Johnny Cattaneo


La Wilier Urta acaba de llegar al mercado. La marca italiana tiene un potente equipo de bike-maraton que ya la está usando en competición. Hemos tenido su bicicleta oficial en nuestras manos.




esmtb.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

La Thomus Lightrider olímpica de Mathias Flueckiger


Cambio de color y dibujos con mucho significado para la Thomus Lightrider de Flueckiger. Shimano y DT Swiss dominan esta Thomus




www.brujulabike.com


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Fluckiger tokyo bike is looking awesome!

25mm IW wheels, 2.25 thunder burts, 100mm suspension and i could bet he's not gonna lose a second to Nino on his trail bike.....


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

peabody said:


> Lol I should be banned because I don't agree with you&#8230;.
> 
> the problem is you think your opinion is fact.


I must be missing out on some really spicey exchanges here because I've blocked the troll.

Anyway The Epic Evo is listed as a lighter frameset because the Bain hardware is missing. None of the hosing and brass weight etc to add unnecessary weight. Personally I think they should offer a Bainless Epic in 100mm travel with the SidLuxe and SID Ultimate SL. I don't think the XC race bike needs bain hardware at all.

LMN is Catherine riding Specialized now? I thought she was still on the Oiz


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> At one the WC I prepped a Giant with Fox Live on it. Pretty cool, technology. The rider is a good 12kg lighter than me, yet I could sprint around on her bike with zero suspension movement.
> 
> I have heard that the generation-2 of live valve is going to be lighter and fit on any bike. A pretty clean way to make a 120 or more XC bike work.


The only problem with this is that a 130mm to 140mm trailish bike is a lot heavier than a 100mm travel XC bike to the tune of aroun 1.5kg I thought about this with a FuelEX in 2019 and the numbers just didn't add up.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

RiKMc said:


> It may bolt on, but ride like garbage. The leverage ratio curve on those two bikes are about as different as they can be. The Epic would probably blow through the first half of the travel really easily. However, a trip to the friendly neighborhood suspension shop (everyone should have one) should fix that right up.
> 
> I think three position remotes like the Squidlock or Scott's system are just what we need to make 120 (or more) travel bikes work well in XC. In the past I've found that if you set up a bike with more than 100mm of travel to pedal well, you end up only using 100mm. A good three position lockout could theoretically help with that. I'd like to see a system that changes spring rate in addition to damping. Maybe the remote could reduce negative air volume in the mid position (in addition to firming up the damping). That would be sweet.


Something like the Cannondale/FOX DYAD but in a fork as well? DYAD is thing of beauty in use and probably not as heavy as a complete LiveValve system


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> I must be missing out on some really spicey exchanges here because I've blocked the troll.
> 
> Anyway The Epic Evo is listed as a lighter frameset because the Bain hardware is missing. None of the hosing and brass weight etc to add unnecessary weight. Personally I think they should offer a Bainless Epic in 100mm travel with the SidLuxe and SID Ultimate SL. I don't think the XC race bike needs bain hardware at all.
> 
> LMN is Catherine riding Specialized now? I thought she was still on the Oiz


Cliff switched to Specialized last year.

My house is sort of over flowing with Epics right now. Since I have sold by Oiz and am wait for my new Oiz to arrive I was able to set-up one of the Epics for myself. A really interesting bike to ride.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

WR304 said:


> The 2021 Specialized Epic Evo uses a 190x40mm rear shock. That's exactly the size that is used on a 100mm travel Orbea Oiz so you've probably got a shed full of the lockout rear shocks that will bolt straight on!
> 
> All you need to do is run the lockout cable through that hole under the top tube and then open up the head tube rubber grommet so that there is space for four cables (cable for XTR rear derailleur, cable dropper post, rear brake hose and the remote lockout cable). For a lockout lever an Orbea Squidlock off an Orbea Oiz should do the job.


Fox also have a three position lever available ad the Scott system also works. RS would require some cable pinch bolt MacGyvering as the amount of cable pulled isn't quite the same btween RS and FOX. The Orbea lever will work too. Lots of possibilities


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

Brad said:


> Something like the Cannondale/FOX DYAD but in a fork as well? DYAD is thing of beauty in use and probably not as heavy as a complete LiveValve system


Yes. Somehow the existence of that system escaped me. Probably because weird proprietary Cannondale stuff gets written off. Get it into a more normal form factor and that's basically it. For the fork, I think it could be like a DSD Runt, but with just an open and closed version. In closed, it would be a big volume spacer. In open it would just be a bigger positive air chamber at the same pressure.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Goran_injo said:


> Yep, that was my point. Since not factory pressed, she might have an option not to use the new one and force adapt.


I believe that she now has one of the new ones. Andy shared a story about burning midnight oil to set it up for her. We'll see if she toes the line on it though&#8230;


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

RiKMc said:


> ....
> 
> I think three position remotes like the Squidlock or Scott's system are just what we need to make 120 (or more) travel bikes work well in XC. In the past I've found that if you set up a bike with more than 100mm of travel to pedal well, you end up only using 100mm. A good three position lockout could theoretically help with that. *I'd like to see a system that changes spring rate in addition to damping.* Maybe the remote could reduce negative air volume in the mid position (in addition to firming up the damping). That would be sweet.


The Twinloc does just that for the rear shock, by reducing the positive air chamber volume. Although it only changes damping, not spring rate, on all compatible forks. I used to race a Genius 130mm travel bike. I think it would remain competitive in XC to this day...it just could have used a touch more anti-squat and a slight boost in rear-end stiffness. 130mm/90mm/Locked.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

brentos said:


> The Twinloc does just that for the rear shock, by reducing the positive air chamber volume. Although it only changes damping, not spring rate, on all compatible forks. I used to race a Genius 130mm travel bike. I think it would remain competitive in XC to this day...it just could have used a touch more anti-squat and a slight boost in rear-end stiffness. 130mm/90mm/Locked.


Well, I learned something today. Thanks. While it'd be cool on forks too, the rear is where changing sag/ride height can affect pedaling and descending geometry most effectively. I can't tell if the new SRAM shocks operate the same way. If they do, the new Spark got a lot more compelling to me. I raced a 140 travel bike a few years ago at the pack fill pro level. The only big problem was wanting a firmer rear at critical moments.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

brentos said:


> The Twinloc does just that for the rear shock, by reducing the positive air chamber volume. Although it only changes damping, not spring rate, on all compatible forks. I used to race a Genius 130mm travel bike. I think it would remain competitive in XC to this day...it just could have used a touch more anti-squat and a slight boost in rear-end stiffness. 130mm/90mm/Locked.


Impossible to change air chamber volume and not spring rate&#8230;P=F/A
can't change basic scientific principles even tho some here would like too.


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## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Impossible to change air chamber volume and not spring rate&#8230;P=F/A
> can't change basic scientific principles even tho some here would like too.


I think he was just saying it does not change air chamber volume on forks. That's only a rear shock feature. For forks (and I think the Rockshox rears) Twinloc is a three position damper remote.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Personally I think they should offer a Bainless Epic in 100mm travel with the SidLuxe and SID Ultimate SL. I don't think the XC race bike needs bain hardware at all.


The brain is actually pretty cool. I did a race sim and was very impressed. It just worked, the bike was stiff when I wanted it to be and rear wheel tracked when like a stupid bike across the rough.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> The brain is actually pretty cool. I did a race sim and was very impressed. It just worked, the bike was stiff when I wanted it to be and rear wheel tracked when like a stupid bike across the rough.


Yeah that's how it feels for the first 20 hrs. After that it just feels harsh once the shock is past that fresh service feeling. For people who have their bikes serviced regularly (way before 50hrs) Its going to feel great. Hence I'd prefer a brainless version. I do like the stiffness in the new frame. This helps the bike track quite well


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Every time I've demoed a Brain bike, it felt harsh. They probably don't service those demo bikes very often. And everyone I know who owns a Brain bike just seem to experience one problem after another. 

But then I'm a regular guy with a job and doing suspension service every 20 hours to save 10 seconds on a 1 hour ride isn't at the top of my priority list. For Jordan Sarrou, I'm sure it's well worth it.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> Every time I've demoed a Brain bike, it felt harsh. They probably don't service those demo bikes very often. And everyone I know who owns a Brain bike just seem to experience one problem after another.
> 
> But then I'm a regular guy with a job and doing suspension service every 20 hours to save 10 seconds on a 1 hour ride isn't at the top of my priority list. For Jordan Sarrou, I'm sure it's well worth it.


When when it gets harsh I mean that its much more harsh than new. The new feeling I can live with but yes often demo bikes come in and go out with little consideration for servicing after every test ride. Most of the tme it has to go to a Specialized Service centre where they will just swap out the suspension units. I cant see demo bikes gettting sent in every week for shock turn around.
hen there's that clunk clunk clunk at the back that drives me nuts...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Yeah that's how it feels for the first 20 hrs. After that it just feels harsh once the shock is past that fresh service feeling. For people who have their bikes serviced regularly (way before 50hrs) Its going to feel great. Hence I'd prefer a brainless version. I do like the stiffness in the new frame. This helps the bike track quite well


The one I am riding has 400hrs on it. I have only done the basic air can service in it.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> When when it gets harsh I mean that its much more harsh than new. The new feeling I can live with but yes often demo bikes come in and go out with little consideration for servicing after every test ride. Most of the tme it has to go to a Specialized Service centre where they will just swap out the suspension units. I cant see demo bikes gettting sent in every week for shock turn around.
> hen there's that clunk clunk clunk at the back that drives me nuts...


My quick take the Brain and Suspension as a whole.

When you are going full gas the brain works really well. The bike just works the way I want it to, without me having to make changes. Where I find the brain less than desirable is at more pedestrian speeds. That sharpness and stiff ride that is awesome when I giving it, is less than desirable when I am cruising.

My biggest complaint though is not with the brain, it is with the shock. Every in-line shock I have ridden has always suffered from heat build up on long descents but one on Epic gets far hotter than any shock I have used. Hot enough that it significantly impacts the bike on a long descent. I suspect the small air volume and shock body is the issue here.

Today I did a quick comparison on a descent that is about 10 minutes length. At the top of the descent the bike was working well, as the descent progressed I was having to push harder and harder with my feet to get the rear wheel to bite. About 3/4 of the way down I did a quick stop and reset the travel marker. During the top of the trail I was using all the rear wheel travel, on the bottom of the trail I was using about 70% of travel. The shock was hot enough that it was now far too stiff for me.

Now for XCO racing this isn't an issue, 10 minute descents pretty well don't exist, but for marathon racing on the other hand this might matter. Fortunately the brain does allow me to adjust for this. All need to do is set my base pressure a bit lower. Without the brain this would compromise the pedalling characteristics of the bike.


----------



## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

LMN said:


> Now for XCO racing this isn't an issue, 10 minute descents pretty well don't exist, but for marathon racing on the other hand this might matter.


I think this is an important point. I came to a similar realization about brakes a few years ago. Some brakes (e.g. XTR Race and SRAM Level) are really meant for XCO, not the riding I do everyday or the racing that exists for me regionally. They heat up and get overwhelmed by sustained steep descents beyond about three minutes. With as capable as modern bikes are (geometrically etc.), it's easy to forget that some products are really meant for a sub 15 minute lap with tech/feed zones.


----------



## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Impossible to change air chamber volume and not spring rate&#8230;P=F/A
> can't change basic scientific principles even tho some here would like too.


Sorry, what I was trying to say. That the shock reduces volume and therefore spring rate, while the fork does not adjust spring rate.

Adjusted with twin lock between "Descend" and "Traction" 
Air Volume/Spring Rate: Shock Only 
Damping: Shock & Fork


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

LMN said:


> My quick take the Brain and Suspension as a whole.
> 
> When you are going full gas the brain works really well. The bike just works the way I want it to, without me having to make changes. Where I find the brain less than desirable is at more pedestrian speeds. That sharpness and stiff ride that is awesome when I giving it, is less than desirable when I am cruising.
> 
> ...


Are you running the brain fork too? I like the brain on the rear, but use the light setting, on the fork I couldn't come to terms with feel.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Are you running the brain fork too? I like the brain on the rear, but use the light setting, on the fork I couldn't come to terms with feel.


No, I have step cast 32.

I used a Fox Terralogic about 10 years ago, really liked it for racing. Not so much for riding.


----------



## Mamil1 (May 20, 2019)

I had the 2004 epic with a terralogic fork. It was a bit clunky when trundling around but it felt great for racing and both fork and shock where faultless for 6 years with just annual servicing.

I'm amazed how unreliable the current brain shocks are.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> My quick take the Brain and Suspension as a whole.
> 
> When you are going full gas the brain works really well. The bike just works the way I want it to, without me having to make changes. Where I find the brain less than desirable is at more pedestrian speeds. That sharpness and stiff ride that is awesome when I giving it, is less than desirable when I am cruising.
> 
> ...


well for XCO racer their bikes get serviced pretty much after every run. They're typically switching between their two available bikes all the time. I don't have that luxury. Also the Brain rear shock and fork seems to be more affected by oil heat build up and I suspect this has to do with more cavitation taking place with the inertia valve circuit switching on an off. It might not be severe enough to pit the components but its enough to cause stiction in the system ans slow the actuation of the valve



RiKMc said:


> I think this is an important point. I came to a similar realization about brakes a few years ago. Some brakes (e.g. XTR Race and SRAM Level) are really meant for XCO, not the riding I do everyday or the racing that exists for me regionally. They heat up and get overwhelmed by sustained steep descents beyond about three minutes. With as capable as modern bikes are (geometrically etc.), it's easy to forget that some products are really meant for a sub 15 minute lap with tech/feed zones.


Fully agree, race day XCO components don't work well in Stage races or marathon events. I've seen how challenged mineral oil systems are after one stage of the Cape Epic. Brake bleeds are just too common at those types of events.



LMN said:


> No, I have step cast 32.
> 
> I used a Fox Terralogic about 10 years ago, really liked it for racing. Not so much for riding.


I had the Lefty FOx Terrible Logic from 2006 through to 2010. That system I enjoyed for racing but it was maintenance intensive. I prefered the Speed DLR 110 for day to day use.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> well for XCO racer their bikes get serviced pretty much after every run. They're typically switching between their two available bikes all the time.


Is this opinion or fact? Because if it is fact you have information that contrary to mine.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

To be fair, when I demoed the Epic, it was the 2018-2020 generation and not the current generation. What was interesting is that I also demoed a Pivot Mach 4 with live valve on the same day. That live valve felt 100% more plush than the Epic - it was like riding on air. But when I bombed rock gardens and root gardens at high speed, that Epic held its line while the Pivot deflected and I almost crashed several times. It was interesting that the more comfortable bike was less confidence inspiring at speed.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tick_magnet said:


> To be fair, when I demoed the Epic, it was the 2018-2020 generation and not the current generation. What was interesting is that I also demoed a Pivot Mach 4 with live valve on the same day. That live valve felt 100% more plush than the Epic - it was like riding on air. But when I bombed rock gardens and root gardens at high speed, that Epic held its line while the Pivot deflected and I almost crashed several times. It was interesting that the more comfortable bike was less confidence inspiring at speed.


I really like the Live Valve. I hope the 2nd generation is what Fox hopes it is.

Frame flex is a weird thing, it isn't a problem at all, until it suddenly is a major problem. Sort how I feel about the SC32. That fork is great until you reach a critical load and then you aren't exactly sure where the front wheel is.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

LMN said:


> I really like the Live Valve. I hope the 2nd generation is what Fox hopes it is.
> 
> Frame flex is a weird thing, it isn't a problem at all, until it suddenly is a major problem. Sort how I feel about the SC32. That fork is great until you reach a critical load and then you aren't exactly sure where the front wheel is.


LMN, how do you tell when it's frame flex versus suspension that is setup too soft?


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Is this opinion or fact? Because if it is fact you have information that contrary to mine.


Fact for some teams apparently. That's how the CFR guys operate. Race bike +training bike. Guys will the course on training bike to scout the course. Then ride it on their race bikes and get the suspension dialled while the training bikes are serviced. Once
race bike is dialled its serviced and the riders are back on their training bikes. Simon mentioned in an interview the Specialized guys did the same and this was confirmed by JP. I don't know about Scott and the smaller teams.


----------



## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

I have experience with previous gen Brain and totally agree with LMN, in training or just fooling around in forest the Brain felt too stiff and clunky and didn't liked it it all, but for full gas racing it came into it's own and i truly liked it.

I have a feeling the new Spark is opposite to that, all that geo and travel probably feels awesome riding around your home trails etc


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

carlostruco said:


> La Thomus Lightrider olímpica de Mathias Flueckiger
> 
> 
> Cambio de color y dibujos con mucho significado para la Thomus Lightrider de Flueckiger. Shimano y DT Swiss dominan esta Thomus
> ...


Found the English version, thanks, great looking bike.









Mathias Flueckiger's Thomus Lightrider Olympic edition


A change of colour and meaningful patterns for the Flueckiger's Thomus Lightrider. Shimano and DT Swiss dominate this Thomus




www.brujulabike.com





Not that different significantly, geometry-wise, from the ignominious Spark RC, besides the travel and tire width.

Well, would you look at that stem and backsweep...and saddle level with bars.

I'd like to know the HTA of the Thomas Lightrider but it looks like the reach is modern-long. Looks a little more elongated through the top tube from the 2020 edition.








Mathias Flückiger's Thömus Lightrider WC 2020 in detail


The Thömus Lightrider WC 2020 is a purely Swiss mountain bike that has been completely redesigned for the upcoming Olympic Games




www.brujulabike.com


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Found the English version, thanks, great looking bike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are the frames any different, aside from the color difference? The red one was a brand new frame. Head angle is 69.1.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

That's an optical illusion. I'm guessing it's 3"+ saddle to bar drop on that Thomus that Fluckiger will be riding.

Here's my bike:










Saddle and bars look level there. In reality, the end of the bar is 38" above the ground and the saddle is 40.5".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Are the frames any different, aside from the color difference? The red one was a brand new frame. Head angle is 69.1.


I'm seeing a slightly longer stem on his 2020. His 2021 is quoted as having a 66mm stem, so either way, nice modern setup.

I'm seeing multiple camera angles from both model years, and his saddle is level with the bars. Different strokes... both him and Nino are about 5'8", slightly below average height.


----------



## RiKMc (Aug 9, 2011)

chomxxo said:


> I'm seeing a slightly longer stem on his 2020. His 2021 is quoted as having a 66mm stem, so either way, nice modern setup.
> 
> I'm seeing multiple camera angles from both model years, and his saddle is level with the bars. Different strokes... both him and Nino are about 5'8", slightly below average height.


Looking at the seat tube/top tube junction, I think he's sized up to a medium this year too.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There's a bike check for Isla Short's 2021 Orbea Oiz here:









Pro Bike Check: Isla Short's Orbea Oiz World Cup XC Race Bike w/ prototype Hunt wheels


We catch up with Orbea Factory Racing's Isla Short; here's exactly how she sets up her Orbea Oiz World Cup XCO Race Bike, home and away




bikerumor.com














Isla Short was on my list of picks for a medal at the Tokyo Olympics but wasn't picked for the GB team.

She's 153cm tall and weighs 48kg. This is a Size small frame and unlike a lot of the other bikes featured above the issue here is getting the bars low enough! Along with being a small frame it has the 120mm rear suspension travel option, only with a 100mm travel fork to lower the front end and the bars are also flipped, so that instead of the bar having upsweep it is downsweep to drop the bar height. Even so the bars are still higher than the saddle.

Some other things are the 165mm length Shimano Deore XT crankset, instead of Shimano XTR, apparently due to component shortages and the Hunt wheels use carbon fibre spokes.

In the Bikerumor article there's a little more about the Schwalbe Dirty Dan tyres that were seen at the Les Gets World Cup. It says they are a 29x2.0" size, use the Addix Speed Grip compound and are a new tyre that Schwalbe is going to be releasing.

She has the Orbea squidlock remote lockout lever flipped upside down on the right hand side of the bar, and then the dropper post lever is on the left hand side of the bar.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Following on from the Axxios magic stickers on the Scott SRAM bikes (and also Mathias Fluckiger) this bike check on Stefan Kung's Tour de France Lapierre Aerostorm time trial bike made me laugh. Stefan Kung is Swiss Time Trial Champion (the link being the Swiss nationality as Axxios is a Swiss company that seems to sponsor Swiss riders) and he was running magic stickers on his bike, only covered with electrical tape. 

The electrical tape is either to make them more aero or easier to remove if they're not stuck to the frame with adhesive. I'm not sure which.



https://cyclingtips.com/2021/07/exclusive-stefan-kungs-lapierre-aerostorm-drs-tt-bike/


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More Tokyo bikes...









Bicis de los pro: las Mondraker Podium y F-Podium olímpicas


Las Mondraker Podium y Mondraker F-Podium se visten de gala para los Juegos Olímpicos de Tokio. Lo hacen con los colores de los países de sus respectivos dueños




esmtb.com





Interestingly, Crank Brothers Eggbeaters 3 are the only not top level component...


----------



## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

WR304 said:


> Following on from the Axxios magic stickers on the Scott SRAM bikes (and also Mathias Fluckiger) this bike check on Stefan Kung's Tour de France Lapierre Aerostorm time trial bike made me laugh. Stefan Kung is Swiss Time Trial Champion (the link being the Swiss nationality as Axxios is a Swiss company that seems to sponsor Swiss riders) and he was running magic stickers on his bike, only covered with electrical tape.
> 
> The electrical tape is either to make them more aero or easier to remove if they're not stuck to the frame with adhesive. I'm not sure which.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize that TT needed magic stickers, but Wout do I know?


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

WR304 said:


> Isla Short was on my list of picks for a medal at the Tokyo Olympics but wasn't picked for the GB team.
> 
> She's 153cm tall and weighs 48kg. This is a Size small frame and unlike a lot of the other bikes featured above the issue here is getting the bars low enough! Along with being a small frame it has the 120mm rear suspension travel option, only with a 100mm travel fork to lower the front end and the bars are also flipped, so that instead of the bar having upsweep it is downsweep to drop the bar height. Even so the bars are still higher than the saddle.
> 
> Some other things are the 165mm length Shimano Deore XT crankset, instead of Shimano XTR, apparently due to component shortages and the Hunt wheels use carbon fibre spokes.


It would be very convenient if she was riding on Isla bikes as her sponsor ride


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

New Anthem 2022 also spotted at Les Gets;


----------



## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Kate's Tokyo bike. Of particular note is that stem. Kinda just slumps down.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

bikeranzin said:


> View attachment 1939827
> 
> 
> Kate's Tokyo bike. Of particular note is that stem. Kinda just slumps down.


on a flat bar from riser too get the front end down with the 120 fork.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

She used a riser bar???


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

This looks horrendous. I wish she was kept on the previous machine, it didn't do her no harm performance wise.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Brad said:


> She used a riser bar???


On the previous frame she did


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Are yp


Salbutamol bass said:


> On the previous frame she did


Are you it's a riser? The Syncros Frasier one piece bar and stem combo in - 6 degree does give that optical illusion from certain camera angles


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Brad said:


> Are yp
> 
> Are you it's a riser? The Syncros Frasier one piece bar and stem combo in - 6 degree does give that optical illusion from certain camera angles


no optical illusion from head on. Many pics on her Instagram and it's clearly a riser bar.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Any -6 degree bar-stem will be a riser bar on a bike with a HTA less than 84 degrees...


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

bikeranzin said:


> View attachment 1939827
> 
> 
> Kate's Tokyo bike. Of particular note is that stem. Kinda just slumps down.


Woah, this looks like an absolute tank. Looks more like an enduro bike than a xc one, but if it works it works ?‍♂.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Le Duke said:


> Any -6 degree bar-stem will be a riser bar on a bike with a HTA less than 84 degrees...


No, the stem will rise from horizontal but a bar can still be a flat bar or a riser bar.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Specialized have released a new "speed of light" collection of bikes. This includes a Specialized S-Works Epic for the bargain price of $15,000 USD. ?









Speed of Light Collection | Specialized.com







www.specialized.com














The reason for mentioning that here is the framesets are labelled "Specialized", rather than "S-Works" so this appears to be the colour scheme Specialized sponsored riders will be using for their Olympic bikes. At past years Olympics they've had "Specialized" on the bikes, presumably for more brand recognition around the world.

I liked the Specialized Rio 2016 orange thermal colour changing paint more than this one (the paint changed between orange and yellow colours when exposed to heat in direct sunlight).


----------



## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

WR304 said:


> Specialized have released a new "speed of light" collection of bikes. This includes a Specialized S-Works Epic for the bargain price of $15,000 USD. 😂
> 
> The reason for mentioning that here is the framesets are labelled "Specialized", rather than "S-Works" so this appears to be the colour scheme Specialized sponsored riders will be using for their Olympic bikes. At past years Olympics they've had "Specialized" on the bikes, presumably for more brand recognition around the world.
> 
> I liked the Specialized Rio 2016 orange thermal colour changing paint more than this one (the paint changed between orange and yellow colours when exposed to heat in direct sunlight).


Interesting that the frameset is $7k, so somehow yet another $2k is sneaking in for I assume partially painted wheels and seatpost? Deal of the century.

Regardless, sold out of size large. So I suppose I'll have to continue clunking around on whatever fraction of the speed of light an Oiz can attain.

The S-works recons are the same price though.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

I understand there's big demand for bikes at the moment, but seriously.... $15k for bike? It's still just a bike without any space technology or anything similar. Sorry but carbon was hype 20 years ago, today, it's as common as plastic for yogurt cups. For $15k you can get car with technology bikes will never see, and with about million way more complicated parts more. 
But then again, if you can sell little bit of carbon and two wheels for that much, why not to put price as they did.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

well the Fraser she had on her bike for Cape Epic 2020 was a flat bar. From some angles it looks like a riser due to the upsweep where the bar transitions to the controls and grips mounting area. Maybe she did use a riser version of it but it's not listed on the Syncros site. 

$15k for a bicycle.. The sort of p#ss only Dpaz can take.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Do they look the same?


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More bikes...









Bicis de los pro: BH Lynx Race EVO y BH Ultimate EVO olímpicas de David Valero y Rocío del Alba García


Las dos bicicletas BH que veremos en los Juegos Olímpicos de Tokio. La BH Lynx Race EVO de David Valero y la BH Ultimate EVO de Rocío del Alba García




esmtb.com


----------



## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

Have I been living under a rock to have never heard of Chaoyang tires? I would assume they are a Chinese brand of some sort.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

cal_len1 said:


> Have I been living under a rock to have never heard of Chaoyang tires? I would assume they are a Chinese brand of some sort.


Yes they are and they make tyres for basically every brand except the French and Italian brands. Their tyres are quite decent and good value


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Brad said:


> Yes they are and they make tyres for basically every brand except the French and Italian brands. Their tyres are quite decent and good value


CST = Chaoyang.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> CST = Chaoyang.


Really?
So Maxxis = CST = Chaoyang?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

NordieBoy said:


> Really?
> So Maxxis = CST = Chaoyang?


Maxxis = Chengshin.









Maxxis - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Maxxis = Chengshin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep.
CST is Cheng Shin Tire.






About CST


CST brand tires are offered by Cheng Shin Rubber Ind. Co. Ltd. (Cheng Shin Tire). Employing more than 20,000 people, Cheng Shin Tire is the largest




www.csttires.com


----------



## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

TIL


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

WR304 said:


> Specialized have released a new "speed of light" collection of bikes. This includes a Specialized S-Works Epic for the bargain price of $15,000 USD. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like their actual Olympic bikes will say specialized and not sworks from pics that are showing.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Don't want no short short stem...









Bicis de los pro: BMC Fourstoke de Pauline Ferrand Prevot para los Juegos Olímpicos


La BMC Fourstroke de Pauline Ferrand-Prevot es una de las bicis que todo el mundo sitúa en las medallas. ¿Logrará el oro? Estos son los detalles de la bicicleta personalizada que conducirá.




esmtb.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More here...



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-bmc-unveils-pauline-ferrand-prvot-filippo-colombo-and-elisabeth-brandaus-olympic-edition-bmc-fourtstrokes.html


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Wow!!!









La obra de arte de Norco para los JJ.OO


Norco ha cogido dos de sus mountain bike, algunas hojas de arce, y ha personalizado las bicis del equipo canadiense en tonos dorados




www.brujulabike.com


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It's all about the RAD measurement, the BMC Fourstroke joined the parade of normal-looking bikes to the podium. I like the Time ATAC Absalon pedals--long time fan of ATACs, waiting to see what SRAM does with them; I'm thinking AXS power pedals.

That Norco hand-paint job is beautiful, will there be Canadians riding it in the Olympics?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> Specialized have released a new "speed of light" collection of bikes. This includes a Specialized S-Works Epic for the bargain price of $15,000 USD. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Specialized look pretty cool in person. Catharine was 1/2 tempted to switch back to a straight post just because it looks so cool.

The Norco's are also super nice up close. I don't if they did both FS and HT with that paint job, at least one of the Norco riders is probably racing a hardtail.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

carlostruco said:


> Don't want no short short stem...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes pretty stubby, but expected on women's bikes. They generally have longer legs and shorter torsos.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Yes pretty stubby, but expected on women's bikes. They generally have longer legs and shorter torsos.


Short stems are pretty common for short riders, this shouldn't be surprising.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> It's all about the RAD measurement, the BMC Fourstroke joined the parade of normal-looking bikes to the podium. I like the Time ATAC Absalon pedals--long time fan of ATACs, waiting to see what SRAM does with them; I'm thinking AXS power pedals.
> 
> That Norco hand-paint job is beautiful, will there be Canadians riding it in the Olympics?


I own a BMC Fourstroke. Bike is one of the best handling bikes I've ever ridden. I tested Scott, Trek, Spesh and Canyon. Didn't liken any of them. The only one I didn't get to test was the Pivot Mach 4. Norco is very rare in my are, but there are a few. Oh, also, I liked the Santa Cruz Blur CC. That's a fine handling bike.

Yes, there will be 3 Canadians racing.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

carlostruco said:


> I own a BMC Fourstroke. Bike is one of the best handling bikes I've ever ridden. I tested Scott, Trek, Spesh and Canyon. Didn't liken any of them. The only one I didn't get to test was the Pivot Mach 4. Norco is very rare in my are, but there are a few. Oh, also, I liked the Santa Cruz Blur CC. That's a fine handling bike.
> 
> Yes, there will be 3 Canadians racing.


The built in dropper is one of the most innovative things in mountain biking. I would not be surprised to see BMC claim both golds this time around.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

LMN said:


> Short stems are pretty common for short riders, this shouldn't be surprising.


lol well yeah that too


----------



## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

LMN said:


> at least one of the Norco riders is probably racing a hardtail.


Haley Smith has been showing a hardtail in Instagram, I would assume she is going to race it.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> The built in dropper is one of the most innovative things in mountain biking. I would not be surprised to see BMC claim both golds this time around.


Actually its pretty nice and works just fine. I just serviced it and no debris found inside whatsoever. I never felt the need for a dropper but is nice to have it. The only downside of it is if I go on very long rides, and strap a bottle cage around the post, I have to remember not to drop the post. And no, I'm not riding with a hydration pack!!!


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Looks like nino is off the silverton wheels at Tokyo.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> The Specialized look pretty cool in person. Catharine was 1/2 tempted to switch back to a straight post just because it looks so cool.
> 
> The Norco's are also super nice up close. I don't if they did both FS and HT with that paint job, at least one of the Norco riders is probably racing a hardtail.


You can always put the colour matched post back on after the race! 










There's a bit more red in the actual bike than it appears in the product pictures. It's a colour shift paint so changes appearance depending on the light it is in.

I was trying to watch the men's Olympic road race today (the BBC iplayer streaming of the race was split over lots of programmes mixed with different sports so difficult to sort through) The Specialized sponsored riders were on the Specialized Tarmac SL7 version of that frame in the same colour scheme, along with wearing the matching Specialized Evade 2 helmet, but weren't wearing the matched colour S-Works 7 shoes that I could spot, going for their usual shoes instead it seemed.

This is the Specialized "Torch" paint that they had for the 2016 Rio Olympics. The 2016 heat sensitive paint changed from a deep red to bright yellow as the temperature rose above 71ºF (22ºC).









Specialized fires up color-changing, heat-sensitive paint for Olympians (and you)


Specialized sponsored athletes heading to Rio will be carrying a different type of torch with specially painted Tarmac, Amira and Epic FSR bikes that change color in the heat. While they may stay full yellow down in Rio, the effect is quite spectacular, and it’s found on the Evade helmet, too...




bikerumor.com


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Pinkbike has a round up of some other Olympic paint scheme bikes here:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/round-up-15-olympic-edition-bikes.html



The Trek Supercaliber colour scheme is called "First Light" and is available as a Project One option.

Like the Specialized "Speed of Light" this seems to be the colour scheme that all the Trek sponsored riders across the different disciplines (MTB, road, time trial) are using.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

bikeranzin said:


> Interesting that the frameset is $7k, so somehow yet another $2k is sneaking in for I assume partially painted wheels and seatpost? Deal of the century.
> 
> Regardless, sold out of size large. So I suppose I'll have to continue clunking around on whatever fraction of the speed of light an Oiz can attain.
> 
> The S-works recons are the same price though.


The Specialized "Speed of Light" complete bike comes with a Ceramic speed bottom bracket, silver seat collar and aftermarket jockey wheels in the SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur.

Although it doesn't specifically say so I think the jockey wheels are probably the Ceramic Speed 3d printed titanium narrow wide jockey wheels for SRAM AXS 12 speed, which have a retail list price of 519 euro.









Titanium Pulley Wheels for SRAM AXS, 12s NW, Pulley Wheels


Titanium Pulley Wheels for SRAM AXS, 12s NW




www.ceramicspeed.com














There might be the Ceramic Speed ceramic head set bearings fitted too (355 euro list price), although they aren't mentioned in the product page either.

Headsets


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

So basically lots of snake oil smigginal gains parts.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> So basically lots of snake oil smigginal gains parts.


Marginal gains are still gains.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Mondraker breaking out their Olympic colored F-Podiums as well under Daniel McConnell (Australia) and Jofre Cullell (Spain); the new bikes are taking advantage of the SIDLux/SID combo and rims called "Progress."

Here's the writeup for them and others mentioned in this thread:








The Mountain Bikes Heading to the Tokyo Olympics


Here are a few of the mountain bikes we can expect to see at the Olympic starting line on July 26.




www.singletracks.com


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> The built in dropper is one of the most innovative things in mountain biking. I would not be surprised to see BMC claim both golds this time around.


You got your first BMC Fourstroke right...now lets see about the other one!!!


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> So basically lots of snake oil smigginal gains parts.


The original SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur jockey wheels have ceramic bearings to start with (X01 AXS and GX AXS rear derailleurs have steel bearings) and the original plastic jockey wheels are likely to be quieter whilst weighing the same so it's a lot of money for something that's not even a marginal gain really. It's something like a 10% weight saving over the original jockey wheels.

If they were going for actual "marginal gains" including a few of the Ceramic Speed UFO wax coated chains with the bike would probably make more of a meaningful difference to its performance when ridden.


----------



## J21 (Dec 11, 2020)

Arguable whether ceramic bearings are actually better at all... depending what type of grease and seals they run, even from the get-go aren't necessarily better than high quality steel bearings. Good article here: Ceramic Bearings vs Steel Bearings: An Engineering Analysis - Hambini Engineering


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## J21 (Dec 11, 2020)

WR304 said:


> The original SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur jockey wheels have ceramic bearings to start with (X01 AXS and GX AXS rear derailleurs have steel bearings)


The SRAM website spec listing would disagree? Says the Pulley Bearing Material is steel.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

J21 said:


> The SRAM website spec listing would disagree? Says the Pulley Bearing Material is steel.
> 
> View attachment 1940493


It looks like I was wrong on that. 

There was an online article I read a while ago that stated ceramic for the XX1 AXS jockey wheels. Along with the roughly £200 GBP price difference between XX1 AXS and X01 AXS that price difference would make sense if there were different jockey wheels, along with the titanium bolts and carbon cage.

From the SRAM website the top SRAM Red AXS road rear derailleur has a carbon cage and ceramic jockey wheel bearings but the equivalent top level SRAM XX1 AXS MTB rear derailleur has a carbon cage and steel jockey wheels.









RED eTap AXS Rear Derailleur - RD-RED-E-D1 - SRAM


RED eTap AXS Rear Derailleur, RD-RED-E-D1, SRAM. The heart of the connected cadre. The SRAM RED eTap AXS™ rear derailleur is AXS enabled for easy personalization and designed for both 1x and 2x syste...




www.sram.com





The jockey wheels on the "speed of light" Specialized Epic are definitely the Ceramic Speed ones. Zoom in the complete bike pictures on the Specialized website and the Ceramic Speed logo and lettering is visible on the jockey wheels.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Well even better then. Speed of light is in honour of how fast $16000 will leave your bank account because ceramic bearings will not last long in an mtb unless you service them after every ride


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

J21 said:


> Arguable whether ceramic bearings are actually better at all... depending what type of grease and seals they run, even from the get-go aren't necessarily better than high quality steel bearings. Good article here: Ceramic Bearings vs Steel Bearings: An Engineering Analysis - Hambini Engineering


Hambini is great and really points out just how poorly the bike industry is at engineering. Most of what is produced would not cut it in other industries.

1 other note of ceramic bearings is they are really made for high rpm low load applications, of which nothing like that exists on a bicycle.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Transmission efficiency always perplexes me when people start talking about crazy expensive bearings and what not. I mean you get such a big improvement just switching from 1x to 2x, yet some people still entertain the idea of these "upgrades". 

Shimano really dropped the ball with their 2x electronic system, that thing is the future.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

TDLover said:


> Transmission efficiency always perplexes me when people start talking about crazy expensive bearings and what not. I mean you get such a big improvement just switching from 1x to 2x, yet some people still entertain the idea of these "upgrades".
> 
> Shimano really dropped the ball with their 2x electronic system, that thing is the future.


Wasn't their fault. Bike manufactures wanted more tyre clearance and the front derailleur was getting in the way. It had to go. The alternative was a revised and lighter Hammerschmidt. The 1x solution was already gaining traction. Shimano gambled and lost. 
We worry to much about drivetrain efficiency. Our Watts are to small to be a problem where 1%improvememt is a game changer.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Interesting observation.

The tall riders used straight posts. David Valero Serrano, Victor Koretzky, Ondrej Cink, and MVPD all were on straight posts.

Speculation as to why?


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

when you stand up, you are x% further above the saddle, no matter if you are tall or short (with the exception of people with weird proportions), but since it is a percent difference the actual distance would be greater for taller riders
even back in the pre dropper days, it looked to me that there was way more air between the saddle and rider for the taller riders


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

ccm said:


> when you stand up, you are x% further above the saddle, no matter if you are tall or short (with the exception of people with weird proportions), but since it is a percent difference the actual distance would be greater for taller riders
> even back in the pre dropper days, it looked to me that there was way more air between the saddle and rider for the taller riders


I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at but I think you're on to something. What we see very generally is that tall riders have an advantage in watts but a disadvantage in bike handling.

For the purpose of this thread I think we should imagine a line from the top of the rider's head to the front axle. That angle is almost always steeper for a tall rider. Decrease it by slamming the front end and you get more control over the front in flat corners, but the center of gravity is still way up at the saddle, ready to encourage an endo at worst and unbalanced steering at worst.

A dropper post cures a lot of ills for sure. A longer top tube and shorter stem (with the same total reach) only makes sense by fitting the same, but decreasing that imaginary angle, even with the same HTA. And this is exactly what's happened in the past few years to World Cup bikes, large and small.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ccm said:


> when you stand up, you are x% further above the saddle, no matter if you are tall or short (with the exception of people with weird proportions), but since it is a percent difference the actual distance would be greater for taller riders
> even back in the pre dropper days, it looked to me that there was way more air between the saddle and rider for the taller riders


I suspect you are right on that. I make a real effort to limit my dropper use to where it makes a difference. For myself, as a shorter rider, the high post makes it hard to pump the bike. But I don't really get a lot of extra stability from the dropping the post.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> Interesting observation.
> 
> The tall riders used straight posts. David Valero Serrano, Victor Koretzky, Ondrej Cink, and MVPD all were on straight posts.
> 
> Speculation as to why?


Long limbs especially arms allow them to get behind the saddle more comfortably


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Anton Cooper could never be accused of having "long limbs"


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Wow, look at the Pidcock's tires flattening - is he running inserts? He must be, this looks flat to insert.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Interestingly, Pidcock looks to be using ''regular'' Conti RaceKing, but the wording on the sidewall says something weird that IDK what it is. Anybody here knows a bit more?

And as equal to his counterparts from GBR road racing, they switched from Kask helmets to Lazer. He also uses Specialized shoes and gloves.


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

Yes


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Well it's way better than a hardtail 



smartyiak said:


> Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

smartyiak said:


> Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


No, it is still a shitty bike .

Just goes to show bikes don't win races, racers do.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

smartyiak said:


> Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


No. It's still for me a fugly bike...


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## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

smartyiak said:


> Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


I literally came to this thread to make this comment.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

carlostruco said:


> No. It's still for me a fugly bike...


Really. Goes to show: different strokes. I think the Supercal is an exceptionally cool looking bike. I'm just one of those people that thinks it either 1) needs to gain some travel, 2) lose some weight, or 3) preferably: both.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Not needed. See Olympic women’s gold medalist. And she had a 2 pound dropper on to boot.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

smartyiak said:


> Really. Goes to show: different strokes. I think the Supercal is an exceptionally cool looking bike. I'm just one of those people that thinks it either 1) needs to gain some travel, 2) lose some weight, or 3) preferably: both.


I agree with you on weight and travel, but that is a weird looking shock...


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More eye candy...and some interesting nuggets. Bikes of the Men's complete field.









Las 38 bicicletas de la prueba masculina de MTB en los Juegos Olímpicos


Todas las bicis (salvo 2) que tomarán parte en la prueba masculina de los JJOO de Tokio




esmtb.com


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Wow, look at the Pidcock's tires flattening - is he running inserts? He must be, this looks flat to insert.


Look how compressed the fork is. That's just the weight transfer which isn't a quick compression of the tyre so less likely to pinch flat


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

With a 1st, 6th, 6th, and a 7th was the Supercaliber the most successful bike at the Olympics?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

LMN said:


> With a 1st, 6th, 6th, and a 7th was the Supercaliber the most successful bike at the Olympics?


Well definitely the best looking with that paint job trek came up with. It's a great bike, not sure why it takes some heat in this forum.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Brad said:


> Look how compressed the fork is. That's just the weight transfer which isn't a quick compression of the tyre so less likely to pinch flat


Watching video of the drop, I concluded he was running inserts. The tires looked pretty soft, but didn't get anywhere near bottoming out.


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## john_bikeguy (Nov 23, 2017)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Well definitely the best looking with that paint job trek came up with. It's a great bike, not sure why it takes some heat in this forum.


 It's 95% the rider, but still looks like 60mm rear travel held its own against 100/120mm bikes especially on such a technical coarse.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

5% to the bike is almost 5 minutes in a 90 minute race, just saying...

The field has got some really well-balanced bikes these days, refreshing to see. There's some oddballs in there as there always will be (my eyes... those 1990s teal/skinwall Michelins on Koretsky's bike), but overall the quality is quite high.

Mathias Fluckiger's bike is perfect for this day and age, what I'd expect from one of the best bike handlers in the world.

Interesting to see so many men with negative rise stems just to get their bars level with the saddle, but that shows they're properly sizing their bikes now.



carlostruco said:


> More eye candy...and some interesting nuggets. Bikes of the Men's complete field.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Interesting to see so many men with negative rise stems just to get their bars level with the saddle, but that shows they're properly sizing their bikes now.


Im confused on what you're saying. I see ZERO bikes with bars level to saddle. They all have drop from saddle to bars. What am I misunderstanding?

aside: having never seen it before, I'm digging that Suntour fork on the Scott. Sure, it's pure vanity&#8230;.but I still like it.


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## borisb (Nov 15, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> 5% to the bike is almost 5 minutes in a 90 minute race, just saying...


Where does this come from? 5% is about 500g


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

smartyiak said:


> Im confused on what you're saying. I see ZERO bikes with bars level to saddle. They all have drop from saddle to bars. What am I misunderstanding?
> 
> aside: having never seen it before, I'm digging that Suntour fork on the Scott. Sure, it's pure vanity&#8230;.but I still like it.


agreed there is nobody running their bars level with the saddle, I'm really confused if he's seeing the same bikes everyone else is or if he just sees what he's convinced himself to see.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

More detailed shots of Pidcock's bike. Syncros bar, ''intelligent'' fork and shock plus new prototype RaceKing (same thread but wider tire).









5 puntos destacados de la BMC Fourstroke de Tom Pidcock


La BMC Fourstroke de Tom Pidcock y 5 de sus detalles más destacados




esmtb.com


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tom-pidcock-won-olympics-on-what-looks-like-electronic-prototype-suspension-from-sr-suntour.html


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Salbutamol bass said:


> agreed there is nobody running their bars level with the saddle, I'm really confused if he's seeing the same bikes everyone else is or if he just sees what he's convinced himself to see.


Sure there are. Not that this is always best, but for average to short riders it ends up being so.

I guess you just have to look back at how much better things are than 5-10 years ago. These are some great bikes they've got out there..

And I meant that, if it's 95% about the rider, what was quoted previously, then 5% to the bike means 5 minutes in a 90 minute race, in which 1 minute is a dominating win. 

I'm not saying that's the case. Crediting 1 minute to the bike would be 1%, and even I wouldn't give that much disadvantage to the Kulhavy/Gaze/MVDP fit.

Let's say 30 seconds--OR blowing the entire race, as in MVDP's case... reviewing those photos, I stand by my previous comment that he had the worst bike setup, but in the entire race, not just the top 10.

Interestingly enough if you look closely at the link below, his bike is posed for photos with a Fox 32, but in the endo shot he's clearly on a 34. Beautiful paint job though.









Tokyo Olympics: Mathieu van der Poel's Manga-inspired Canyon Lux


He might have crashed out, but MVDP had one of the best-looking bikes at the Tokyo Olympic XCO mountain bike race




www.bikeperfect.com


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

If we are going to start blaming the bike for crashes, then what was jens schuermans excuse on his new Scott? Either sample all the crashes and look at bike geometry or stop doing that. Cherry picking specific instances is an exercise in dishonesty.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

We have literally looked at every bike that's available to photograph. You're taking it a little too far suggesting dishonesty, but I have understood very well the strong feelings some attach to the "pro look," weathered many personal attacks, and been proven correct again and again. I'd suggest a pack fill guy crashing has nothing to do with anything and is muddying the water, seen a lot of that.

As I've told you personally, it's important that this change happen, not me being right, and thankfully it has. MVDP will change or he won't and continue MTB racing, blame somebody else for his not paying attention, and focus on more lucrative events that he's successful with.



tick_magnet said:


> If we are going to start blaming the bike for crashes, then what was jens schuermans excuse on his new Scott? Either sample all the crashes and look at bike geometry or stop doing that. Cherry picking specific instances is an exercise in dishonesty.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Let's say 30 seconds--OR blowing the entire race, as in MVDP's case... reviewing those photos, I stand by my previous comment that he had the worst bike setup, but in the entire race, not just the top 10.
> 
> Interestingly enough if you look closely at the link below, his bike is posed for photos with a Fox 32, but in the endo shot he's clearly on a 34. Beautiful paint job though.


30 seconds between different bikes? Yeah, I think that a reasonable estimate. Which is in fact 30s quicker, not sure anyone knows that.

As for MVDPs crash, he would gone OTB on a DH bike. He was past the point of any save on any bike, or any rider. When you push the front wheel down to get it the ramp quickly and the ramp ins't there it is game over.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

@chomxxo That wasn't an attack on you. That is an attack on the practice of specifically looking for information to support a narrative. Give us the data on _all_ crashes that occurred and correlate it with bike geometry and setup and then we can look at the evidence. Otherwise, you are just hurting your own credibility when you continue down the path you are taking. But you do you. It doesn't affect me one way or another.

If you don't have the data, then don't state things so strongly like you have the truth.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Have you seen any of the WC races he raced, and some of them, won (let me repeat, won) on his geo misfit, poorly set up Lux?

His fall was clear and utter operator error. 
He was completely unprepared for the scenario, he actually placed and pushed the bike in the opposite direction of the desired, unlike Neff who know (milisec but knew) she would be in trouble and had enough to react.


----------



## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Sure there are. Not that this is always best, but for average to short riders it ends up being so.
> 
> I guess you just have to look back at how much better things are than 5-10 years ago. These are some great bikes they've got out there..
> 
> ...


They aren't level, higher than some but for sure not level with the saddle.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

smartyiak said:


> Do all of us naysayers have to take back everything we said about the Supercal?


I was one of those naysayers but the overall performance of the bike certainly warrants reconsideration. I'm not ready to say that it's the best bike yet or on par with the best bikes. Compared to competitors, the frame still offers less suspension at a slightly heavier weight, but I am willing to consider that perhaps the bike has other strengths that are not obvious to someone who hasn't raced one.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tick_magnet said:


> I was one of those naysayers but the overall performance of the bike certainly warrants reconsideration. I'm not ready to say that it's the best bike yet or on par with the best bikes. Compared to competitors, the frame still offers less suspension at a slightly heavier weight, but I am willing to consider that perhaps the bike has other strengths that are not obvious to someone who hasn't raced one.


I haven't ridden a Supercaliber myself. And to be honest it is not what I am looking for in an XC bike. I want something like the new Scott. But, I don't race world cups. My races have really long descents (15 minutes in some races) the kind of the descents where you want a bike that is very comfortable and allows you to get aways with bit less precision.

The short descents, short lap, and ultra-high skill level found at world cups makes bikes that require precision a very valid option. And the type of descents on WC courses aren't the ones that you need a lot of suspension travel for. Typically they are slow speed tech, and more travel doesn't make slow speed tech easier. Cooper wasn't really giving up anything to Nino on the DH, despite Nino being on a bike that is on paper a quicker descending bike. The only real difference between them is Nino went way bigger of the drop, but that was like a 1/10th of a second.


----------



## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

LMN said:


> I haven't ridden a Supercaliber myself. And to be honest it is not what I am looking for in an XC bike. I want something like the new Scott. But, I don't race world cups. My races have really long descents (15 minutes in some races) the kind of the descents where you want a bike that is very comfortable and allows you to get aways with bit less precision.
> 
> The short descents, short lap, and ultra-high skill level found at world cups makes bikes that require precision a very valid option. And the type of descents on WC courses aren't the ones that you need a lot of suspension travel for. Typically they are slow speed tech, and more travel doesn't make slow speed tech easier. Cooper wasn't really giving up anything to Nino on the DH, despite Nino being on a bike that is on paper a quicker descending bike. The only real difference between them is Nino went way bigger of the drop, but that was like a 1/10th of a second.


My local courses tend to be punchy and root infested. There is a mixture of old school tight and twisty and new school trails that are more groomed with fast flowy sections. Certainly no 15 minute descends. So the Supercal is probably a better suited bike for me personally.

But the x-factor is that we have terrible mechanics in the area lol. So I have to rely on myself for everything including suspension service so I also want simplicity in my bikes. I have owned both full suspension and hardtails and all my PRs were set on hardtails. That isostrut just looks like extra time devoted to service for nearly zero speed gains for me personally on my trails.


----------



## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

This link details a bike not used by MvDP...









Tokyo Olympics: Mathieu van der Poel's Manga-inspired Canyon Lux


He might have crashed out, but MVDP had one of the best-looking bikes at the Tokyo Olympic XCO mountain bike race




www.bikeperfect.com





He raced with Maxxis Aspen, not Ikon. Shimano 1x11? Really?


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

There are some good race pictures showing the bikes in use here:









5 tech talking points from the Olympic cross-country races


A closer look at the XC tech from Tokyo 2020




www.bikeradar.com














This picture of Jolanda Neff's Trek Supercaliber is a good one for seeing the details.

She has Bontrager XR2 team issue tyres, a duct tape mud guard on the downtube, a SRAM AXS dropper seatpost with the stock SRAM remote on the left hand bar (not a blip like Scott SRAM bikes), no power meter and what looks like a SRAM 10-52 wide range cassette on the rear for spinning up the hills at a higher cadence.

With the close up pictures the o ring travel indicator on the forks is clearly visible for the different riders as well.

She's wearing the Swiss national team kit that is made by Assos. The jersey isn't listed on the Assos website but is something special. It's a separate jersey and bib short combination, not a skinsuit, that doesn't have any zips in. It seems to be like a tight t-shirt in that you pull it on over your head. I couldn't find anything about it but it appears to be a very thin breathable fabric so considering it will have been designed specifically for hot weather it likely does something such as be extremely breathable or maybe it holds moisture next to the skin for extra cooling.

There's definitely a reason why there's no zip and also why they've chosen this over a skinsuit! Without a zip it will also be very lightweight. Jolanda Neff had cut open the neck of her Assos jersey for a bit of extra cooling but the original design (as seen in the Nino Schurter picture below) is a tight fit up to the neck.










This picture shows Nino Schurter's 2022 Scott Spark. This was his actual race bike setup, not what is seen in the press photos.

The most notable thing is that he isn't using the Syncros Silverton SL full carbon wheels. The wheels in this picture are using standard metal spokes and are 28 spoke front and rear so are probably Syncros Silverton SL 1.0 instead. He's got a dropper post but it isn't the heavy SRAM AXS electronic version. It seems to be a cable operated dropper post. The pod visible behind the saddle is a transponder from the race organisers that all the riders had to carry, rather a battery for the dropper post.

He's got polished silver finish SRAM brakes, a bike computer on the bars but no power meter and the race number on his bars is folded to try and make it blend in with the shape of the Syncros Fraser IC integrated one piece bars.

He's wearing the same Swiss National team kit as Jolanda Neff but his jersey isn't cut open at the neck. He's only actually wearing an Assos Swiss National team jersey and shorts. The gloves, socks, helmet and shoes are his Scott team equipment. That contrasts with some other countries like Great Britain where Tom Pidcock was made to wear a Lazer helmet with his national team kit, despite Kask being his Ineos Grenadiers team helmet sponsor.

He also has a full complement of magic stickers on the bike. There's one opposite the valve on the front wheel, either one or two on the rear wheel, two on the bottom of the fork legs at the front and one on the back of the seat tube at the top visible. Those are the ones I could see from that photo but there will likely be more too.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> This link details a bike not used by MvDP...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was that article translated into English from another language?

That bit about choosing Shimano XTR over SRAM didn't make much sense as he's sponsored by Shimano so wouldn't be ride anything else.

That manga colour scheme looked to be the Canyon default for their athletes (like the Trek and Specialized colour schemes) rather than a Mathieu Van Der Poel special.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Salbutamol bass said:


> They aren't level, higher than some but for sure not level with the saddle.


I see the top of the grips level with the saddle on all 3.


----------



## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

This picture of Jolanda Neff shows the rear cassette better. It's definitely a SRAM 10-52 wide range cassette, rather than a 10-50 cassette, as shown by the big holes in the largest rear sprocket and distance from the next sprocket down. Whenever anyone says it's unnecessary to have the 52 tooth sprocket ever just show them this picture. heh 

This picture also clearly shows that it is a separate jersey she is wearing, rather than a skinsuit. The bib shorts are Assos X-frame bibs of some sort with straps that extend all the way down the back of the short.

This Cyclingtips article is about the men's version of the Assos shorts but gives an idea of their construction:

Reviewed: Assos Mille GTO C2 Bibs, "destroying conventional short construction" - CyclingTips


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Thanks for the technical overview of the kit. 
Nino is using the std Reverb C1 hydraulic dropper but with cable actuator 
It continues to amuse me how shocked mountain bikers are to see a talented rider not using a dropper. He's tall and rides a smaller frame that's already easier to move about underneath him. He's not riding a bus like trail bike.


----------



## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> I see the top of the grips level with the saddle on all 3.


I don't so who is right?


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MessagefromTate said:


> I don't so who is right?


WR303 will measure and get back to us.


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Nice to see Jolanda gripping with XR2 tires. That is my favorite XC tire for 6-7 years now, despite much of the hate it gets on forums.
I've also seen XR2 blamed for her poor performance before. 

Would be interested to hear why Nino opted for non carbon spoke setup. Perhaps too stiff on the rocky course, where it could bounce & deflect too much (for his weight)?.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Nice to see Jolanda gripping with XR2 tires. That is my favorite XC tire for 6-7 years now, despite much of the hate it gets on forums.
> I've also seen XR2 blamed for her poor performance before.
> 
> Would be interested to hear why Nino opted for non carbon spoke setup. Perhaps too stiff on the rocky course, where it could bounce & deflect too much (for his weight)?.


That's what suspension is for. It's likely more a case of the blades spokes being very tricky and unpredictable in cross winds


----------



## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Suspension for leveraging a overly-stiff wheel for the application? I am not talking about longitudinal but lateral compliance.
I've ridden carbon wheels that are just too stiff for my weight, there is no lateral compliance at all - I don't see any correlation how suspension can compensate lateral one - my testing was all with the same fork.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

MessagefromTate said:


> I don't so who is right?





LMN said:


> WR30*4* will measure and get back to us.


With a side on picture you can get a rough idea of the saddle to handlebar drop by drawing a straight line on the picture across from the top of the grips. 

It really depends on that picture being fully side on though, a lot of bike pictures aren't.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> With a side on picture you can get a rough idea of the saddle to handlebar drop by drawing a straight line on the picture across from the top of the grips.
> 
> It really depends on that picture being fully side on though, a lot of bike pictures aren't.
> 
> ...


I would say those line are slightly downward sloping but personally I would describe the seat and bar height as being essentially level.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

That pic of Cooper is wonky. Looks to have oval wheels... The whole image has a trapezoidal effect to it.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Cooper's bike is leaning toward him. So draw the red line to the top of the stem, since it will on the same plane as the saddle


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

LMN said:


> I would say those line are slightly downward sloping but personally I would describe the seat and bar height as being essentially level.


When the lines are drawn on using your favourite choice of paint program the lines will be exactly level. Bike pictures are nearly always slightly skewed a bit though so the bike in a picture is likely to be sloping or twisted a little bit, rather than the lines!

What I do on photos usually is to draw a line across the base of the wheels, a line across the base the wheel axles, a line across the bars and then a vertical line up from the bottom bracket to get an idea of how off it is.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Sad that it's gotten to this point but, uh, there you go, thanks for the illustration 



WR304 said:


> When the lines are drawn on using your favourite choice of paint program the lines will be exactly level. Bike pictures are nearly always slightly skewed a bit though so the bike in a picture is likely to be sloping or twisted a little bit, rather than the lines!
> 
> What I do on photos usually is to draw a line across the base of the wheels, a line across the base the wheel axles, a line across the bars and then a vertical line up from the bottom bracket to get an idea of how off it is.
> 
> View attachment 1940956


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Sad that it's gotten to this point but, uh, there you go, thanks for the illustration


That's about the limit of my photo editing skills.

Anything more challenging than that and things start going very wrong very fast.?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

WR304 said:


> That's about the limit of my photo editing skills.
> 
> Anything more challenging than that and things start going very wrong very fast.?


I was holding my finger up horizontally to the top of the tyres and moving it up


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Goran_injo said:


> Suspension for leveraging a overly-stiff wheel for the application? I am not talking about longitudinal but lateral compliance.
> I've ridden carbon wheels that are just too stiff for my weight, there is no lateral compliance at all - I don't see any correlation how suspension can compensate lateral one - my testing was all with the same fork.


On lateral compliance I will agree.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Sad that it's gotten to this point but, uh, there you go, thanks for the illustration


You pick the shortest riders in the pro ranks to support your agenda, Pidcock's BMC is featured in the attached. He isn't a tall guy yet rides with drop (third pic down in the article with a mechanic walking the bike illustrates saddle is clearly higher than the bar position). Furthermore, all anybody has to do is look at the performance of Scott/SRAM since changing to the new bike to see where the tipping point is for XC vs "too much". Tom Pidcock's BMC Fourstroke at the Nove Mesto World Cup


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

MessagefromTate said:


> Furthermore, all anybody has to do is look at the performance of Scott/SRAM since changing to the new bike to see where the tipping point is for XC vs "too much".


I agree. I certainly believe Kate for sure would have better results on her old Scott Spark. An extra pound of bike weight is going to hurt a women with a 250 watt threshold much worse than a man with a 400 watt threshold.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Not sure how many times that particular misnomer has been corrected in this thread, at least three times. The new Spark is not significantly heavier than the old one.









On Test | The 2022 Scott Spark adds integration, travel, and weight


The 4th generation Scott Spark has been unveiled, and with its hidden rear shock design and integrated cockpit, we reckon this has to be the cleanest full suspension XC bike on the market right now. Read on for everything you need to know about the new 2022 Scott Spark RC and Spark 900.




flowmountainbike.com







Stonerider said:


> I agree. I certainly believe Kate for sure would have better results on her old Scott Spark. An extra pound of bike weight is going to hurt a women with a 250 watt threshold much worse than a man with a 400 watt threshold.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Her 2019 bike weighed 21.8lbs, 2021 bike is 23.0 , so that's a 1.2 pound of difference. 

Nobody has said the difference all came with the frame, it's heavier tyres, heavier suspension etc


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

MessagefromTate said:


> You pick the shortest riders in the pro ranks to support your agenda, Pidcock's BMC is featured in the attached. He isn't a tall guy yet rides with drop (third pic down in the article with a mechanic walking the bike illustrates saddle is clearly higher than the bar position). Furthermore, all anybody has to do is look at the performance of Scott/SRAM since changing to the new bike to see where the tipping point is for XC vs "too much". Tom Pidcock's BMC Fourstroke at the Nove Mesto World Cup


Not to mention:

Koretzky's OIZ - drop
Shurter's Spark - drop
Valero's Link - drop
LeComte's Massi - drop
All of the Mondrakers - drop
Marotte's Blur - drop
Avancini's Scalpel - drop

and a host of others, but I'm tired of trying to find images.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

smartyiak said:


> Not to mention:
> 
> Koretzky's OIZ - drop
> Shurter's Spark - drop
> ...


It wouldn't matter if you did, a certain individual will post pics of Pro downhill bikes and tell us he's right about bike setup for XC. Any objective observer can look at Scott/SRAM and the decreased performance of the entire team correlates with the bike change. They are barely fighting for Top 10 positions now. Barely...


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

MessagefromTate said:


> It wouldn't matter if you did, a certain individual will post pics of Pro downhill bikes and tell us he's right about bike setup for XC. Any objective observer can look at Scott/SRAM and the decreased performance of the entire team correlates with the bike change. They are barely fighting for Top 10 positions now. Barely...


Are you speaking directly to the stack heigh of the new Spark, or some other factor? There's no way a direct correlation can be made to the performance of the team members. There are other bike factors (reach, weight, wheelbase, aero, travel, stiffness) and even still, the greater contributors would be individual fitness, travel arrangements, mindset, and even team management/decisions. Also, the stack height appears to have been largely addressed on both Nino's & Kate's bikes with greater drop stems. I don't believe Kate even ran the -17 deg stem on the past bike, so it's not like she was struggling to get low enough.

The whole discussion here regarding saddle-bar drop is silly, it's individual to the rider and a tall stack might work for one rider while another needs a lot of drop. Over time, I'd even wager that the body would adapt equally to just about any saddle-bar drop.

I'm not saying there aren't factors in the bikes design that are slowing team members down on XC courses, but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that it is...and even then, it would be impossible to pin it down on one factor of the design.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

brentos said:


> The whole discussion here regarding saddle-bar drop is silly, it's individual to the rider and a tall stack might work for one rider while another needs a lot of drop. Over time, I'd even wager that the body would adapt equally to just about any saddle-bar drop.


Agreed. Saddle-bar drop is one of the most useless metrics out there.

If you look at XC bikes there is actually minimal variation in bar height. A short rider (like myself) and a tall rider usually have bars that only have a difference in height of a couple of cms. Where as their seat height may by 10-20cm. Looking at saddle-bar drop we are really just observing that people run different seat heights.

An interesting by product of modern-geometry is there is even less variation in bar height. Small head-tubes across all sizes and short stems have really limited the amount of variability in bar height.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

so maybe certain tall riders may feel safer with 32" 26" mullets


but the penny farthing was replaced with the safety bicycle over 100 years ago


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)




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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

brentos said:


> Are you speaking directly to the stack heigh of the new Spark, or some other factor? There's no way a direct correlation can be made to the performance of the team members. There are other bike factors (reach, weight, wheelbase, aero, travel, stiffness) and even still, the greater contributors would be individual fitness, travel arrangements, mindset, and even team management/decisions. Also, the stack height appears to have been largely addressed on both Nino's & Kate's bikes with greater drop stems. I don't believe Kate even ran the -17 deg stem on the past bike, so it's not like she was struggling to get low enough.
> 
> The whole discussion here regarding saddle-bar drop is silly, it's individual to the rider and a tall stack might work for one rider while another needs a lot of drop. Over time, I'd even wager that the body would adapt equally to just about any saddle-bar drop.
> 
> I'm not saying there aren't factors in the bikes design that are slowing team members down on XC courses, but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that it is...and even then, it would be impossible to pin it down on one factor of the design.


If you have been following the thread there is some argument that 120mm bikes, zero drop from saddle to bar and 30mm stems are the way forward. It's also been stated that new Scott is everything a XC racer could want. Taking all of this information I have merely shown that very few XCO pros run their bar height level with the saddle and that since Scott SRAM has adopted the new design nobody on the team has performed very well. I am suggesting not one person on that team viewed the Olympics as a "B" race. The goal had to have been medals. Did they get any?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

LMN said:


> Agreed. Saddle-bar drop is one of the most useless metrics out there.


Any bike fit metric is useless. Positions are all over the map, and there isn't any of them that you can say leads to better performance (If there were everyone would have the same fit). The body can adapt to a huge range in terms of fit, you'd really have to be way off for performance to be affected.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

MessagefromTate said:


> Any objective observer can look at Scott/SRAM and the decreased performance of the entire team correlates with the bike change. They are barely fighting for Top 10 positions now. Barely...


Exactly Scott/Sram team is something that you can't really take as something to make conclusions out of it. Let's be honest, there's no Scott/Sram team, it's Nino Schurter and that's it. Everyone else in Scott/Sram team were never really a factor. Courtney pretty much had one good season, and that's it. I believe many might think of her as huge super star, but contrary to Gunn-Rita, Maja and even Jolanda, Kate was never dominant more then few races and then it went down. Except for very few in women competition, this is more or less standard. One good/great season, and then more or less average results, so I don't think it has anything to do with bike, as also with old bike, she was anything but super dominant. Forster had one single good season like 5 or so years ago. Frischknecht never had any result yet. And Schurter... maybe it really is bike, or maybe, he's just getting old and is not competitive because of that. I'm not saying it's not bike, but it can easily be his age. 
That's why I think this team is really not something you can make conclusions about bike out of it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Forster won a World Cup in 2019. That’s a far better result than most teams have had. 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Forster won a World Cup in 2019. That's a far better result than most teams have had.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How many other teams have three senior World Cup winners on them?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Specialised.... .
Also not exactly setting the courses alight but Sarrou is knocking on the door


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Specialised.... .
> Also not exactly setting the courses alight but Sarrou is knocking on the door


Other than Gerhard Kerschbaumer, none of them has won a World Cup. Sarrou has a world championship, those are a national team event, similar but different.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> How many other teams have three senior World Cup winners on them?


Thomus, Ghost and Kross have 2, don't they? Kross was damned close to that 3 if not for Cink having that Afib episode in Andorra.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Overview of a lot of what's been discussed here.






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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> Her 2019 bike weighed 21.8lbs, 2021 bike is 23.0 , so that's a 1.2 pound of difference.
> 
> Nobody has said the difference all came with the frame, it's heavier tyres, heavier suspension etc


That bike weight difference wouldn't have had a significant effect on Kate's result at the Olympics, she was/is off form a bit. But Nino on the other hand...maybe

The difference between 1st and 4th at the Olympics this year was 42 seconds. That is pretty close to the theoretical difference a useless pound makes. The big question is, is that extra pound of bike a useless one, or does it pay its own way.

It is actually pretty cool that two bikes that are outside of excepted norm for XC bike (the SuperCaliper and Spark) were within seconds of each other at the finish. The fact Cooper on his short travel, high post bike could follow Nino down the descents makes me question if extra descending capabilities of the Spark could be utilized to an advantage on that course.


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

LMN said:


> The big question is, is that extra pound of bike a useless one, or does it pay its own way.


For pros that is certainly a question that only the upcoming years will sus out. I think the value in "down country" bikes are amongst us mortals. What full suspension and now longer travel (110, 120mm) gives us is more room for error as crashing is always slower. I'm likely faster on a hardtail for my local races, but I have less room for error when I'm on my edge. A hardtail is great until it's not. Where are the boundaries, there probably isn't any specific line as it's more of a sliding scale.

As a 40+ amateur racer I'm not willing to walk the line of ultimate efficiency and light weight over the forgiveness of full suspension and longer travel. Not to mention I need 1 bike to race XCO, XCM and MTB ?. I currently race the 2018 Spark RC 900 WC and am buying the 2022 Spark RC. I'll be curious how I fair next year compared to 2021.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm just going to leave this here:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clark (Mar 26, 2006)

MI-XC said:


> For pros that is certainly a question that only the upcoming years will sus out. I think the value in "down country" bikes are amongst us mortals. What full suspension and now longer travel (110, 120mm) gives us is more room for error as crashing is always slower. I'm likely faster on a hardtail for my local races, but I have less room for error when I'm on my edge. A hardtail is great until it's not. Where are the boundaries, there probably isn't any specific line as it's more of a sliding scale.
> 
> As a 40+ amateur racer I'm not willing to walk the line of ultimate efficiency and light weight over the forgiveness of full suspension and longer travel. Not to mention I need 1 bike to race XCO, XCM and MTB ?. I currently race the 2018 Spark RC 900 WC and am buying the 2022 Spark RC. I'll be curious how I fair next year compared to 2021.


Please consider test riding the new bike on your favorite loops. Here are a bunch of observations:

1) Jolanda does not know how to successfully ride an uphill switchback when she is in first place (see video Neff leads Olympic-first Swiss sweep of mountain bike podium 
2) Pauline knows it is better to just push the bike and moves into first by doing so. See video.
3) Shimano owns the podium in Men's XC 



4) The entire men's podium used forks with 51mm offset (SR and DT make no other offset in that size, the 3rd place bike was a fox with 51mm as you can look at the stanchion to steerer offset)
5) The entire women's field, most on 44mm offset SIDs can't get the fork to flop and run into the side of the hill and dismount (see video)

Conclusion (based on personal experience of changing to a SID 35 on my 2018 Spark RC WC and discovering that the bike does not listen to to me anymore and routine switchbacks are suddenly impossible):

The 44mm offset only offered by SRAM abandons shorter legged riders, as getting enough lean to steer the bike naturally move the CG from above the contact patches and you have to step off, or fall down. I don't know that this is a trick to motivate dropper post sales, but with a 69 HTA and a 51mm offset the fork flops with no seat contact or dropper post needed. See LL.

Most of the mountain biking public coasts down volcanoes and avoids climbing switchbacks altogether. They buy comfort bikes. Which is what the big brands sell.
Trek and Specialized and SRAM did not make the Men's podium.

I think it is from the 44mm offset decision. BTW I have a 110 mm SID 35 with 3 position damper and 44mm offset for sale. I decided to go with a DT Swiss F232 - they only make XC forks with 51mm offset. It is like their management team has actually ridden a bike before (not down a volcano, but up a switchback with a sharp turn at the top).

That is an on topic observational, vote with your wallet, rant.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I'll take it this is a rant and meant as somewhat tongue in cheek, but holding onto longer offset forks for dear life is just one evidence of the weird artifacts that XC bikes were created with in the post-1990s Klein Mantra era.

Gary Fisher's G2 Geometry tried to correct the short TT, long stem problem with longer offset. At least it acknowledged a problem.

What we are seeing now is decreased fork offset, increasing TT, decreasing stem, increasing reach, widening bars. What you get after a clearing house of all that dreck is that a turn of the bars has a more direct, less vague action on the front wheel. Fork offset and stem length shouldn't have anything to do with rider height whatsoever. If you want more offset, what you need is a slacker head angle (but as an XC guy I know this is tough to admit  ).



clark said:


> Please consider test riding the new bike on your favorite loops. Here are a bunch of observations:
> 
> 1) Jolanda does not know how to successfully ride an uphill switchback when she is in first place (see video Neff leads Olympic-first Swiss sweep of mountain bike podium
> 2) Pauline knows it is better to just push the bike and moves into first by doing so. See video.
> ...


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## clark (Mar 26, 2006)

chomxxo said:


> I'll take it this is a rant and meant as somewhat tongue in cheek, but holding onto longer offset forks for dear life is just one evidence of the weird artifacts that XC bikes were created with in the post-1990s Klein Mantra era.
> 
> Gary Fisher's G2 Geometry tried to correct the short TT, long stem problem with longer offset. At least it acknowledged a problem.
> 
> What we are seeing now is decreased fork offset, increasing TT, decreasing stem, increasing reach, widening bars. What you get after a clearing house of all that dreck is that a turn of the bars has a more direct, less vague action on the front wheel. Fork offset and stem length shouldn't have anything to do with rider height whatsoever. If you want more offset, what you need is a slacker head angle (but as an XC guy I know this is tough to admit  ).


I want the bike to turn with less required lean of the bike frame. This lets me put power down while near the natural seated position while cornering. Not a theoretical discussion.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MI-XC said:


> For pros that is certainly a question that only the upcoming years will sus out. I think the value in "down country" bikes are amongst us mortals. What full suspension and now longer travel (110, 120mm) gives us is more room for error as crashing is always slower. I'm likely faster on a hardtail for my local races, but I have less room for error when I'm on my edge. A hardtail is great until it's not. Where are the boundaries, there probably isn't any specific line as it's more of a sliding scale.
> 
> As a 40+ amateur racer I'm not willing to walk the line of ultimate efficiency and light weight over the forgiveness of full suspension and longer travel. Not to mention I need 1 bike to race XCO, XCM and MTB ?. I currently race the 2018 Spark RC 900 WC and am buying the 2022 Spark RC. I'll be curious how I fair next year compared to 2021.


I agree.

If I am buying a new XC bike the Spark is near the top of my list. But if I am trying to win world cups, not as confident that it is the best choice out there.


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## clark (Mar 26, 2006)

LMN said:


> I agree.
> 
> If I am buying a new XC bike the Spark is near the top of my list. But if I am trying to win world cups, not as confident that it is the best choice out there.


If you put a 51mm offset 100mm travel fork on a 2022 Spark you end up with the 2018 geometry, low bottom bracket and all. Should be a better bike than stock. Put lots of tokens in the rear shock?

It is really a question of how deaf you want the bike to be to subtle weight shifts. A 2013 Scale set up as single speed is a wonderful, communicative experience. The 2018 Spark was as well, until I "improved" it.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

LMN said:


> I agree.
> 
> If I am buying a new XC bike the Spark is near the top of my list. But if I am trying to win world cups, not as confident that it is the best choice out there.


For a one bike to ride trails and do local xc races it seems like a perfect tool, i agree

I'm so torn between buying old spark 900sl with 20.5lbs weight or new 900rc with about ~23lbs, both are going to end up with about same price for me, main thing that steers me to new model is resale value , which is going to favor new model of course


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> I'll take it this is a rant and meant as somewhat tongue in cheek, but holding onto longer offset forks for dear life is just one evidence of the weird artifacts that XC bikes were created with in the post-1990s Klein Mantra era.
> 
> Gary Fisher's G2 Geometry tried to correct the short TT, long stem problem with longer offset. At least it acknowledged a problem.
> 
> What we are seeing now is decreased fork offset, increasing TT, decreasing stem, increasing reach, widening bars. What you get after a clearing house of all that dreck is that a turn of the bars has a more direct, less vague action on the front wheel. Fork offset and stem length shouldn't have anything to do with rider height whatsoever. If you want more offset, what you need is a slacker head angle (but as an XC guy I know this is tough to admit  ).


Pls post more I love the comedy. If you can't adjust stem length, then how do you set up a bike of the same size for riders of different heights and different proportions?


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## AnthemRider (Feb 7, 2007)

LMN said:


> I agree.
> 
> If I am buying a new XC bike the Spark is near the top of my list. But if I am trying to win world cups, not as confident that it is the best choice out there.


I can quite confidently state that riding a Spark will not hurt my placing in a World Cup race _at all._


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## clark (Mar 26, 2006)

I have not plowed through all the discussion, but is this wheel summary correct?:
1) Vanderpoel used flanged hubs with bladed spokes tied and soldered at the cross
2) Nino uses bladed spokes (straight pull laced with a hard cross)
3) Loana uses straight pull hubs with a hard cross tied an soldered
4) Pidcock uses Syncros molded carbon wheels with a race king variant tire
5) Mathias uses straight pull hubs with a hard cross (like Loana but not ties and soldered) https://cdn.brujulabike.com/media/24357/conversions/dsc04881-dsc04881-1000.jpg

My conclusions are that Syncros molded carbon can work if you have an elastic tire that acts as the spring system such as a RaceKing. 
Nino did not choose those and saw his best results this year on bladed spokes with a hard cross that takes the spoke out of column turning the wheel into a suspension element with moving parts (not just spoke and rim elastic deflection, but actual sideways motion at the cross as spokes relax and tension.
MVDP and Loana do not want to start any fires by rubbing two sticks together, so they tie and solder at the cross where the spokes bend whilst passing).

RaceKings were always fast but disconcertingly underdamped. I don't know how much work Continential did tuning the natural frequency of the wheel tire system. It is probably easier for them to do the math if the wheel is super stiff and not a part of the calculations.

I still think Loana has the fastest setup when she runs the Rader tires with flat widely spaced knobs on the long chainstay bike. Super forgiving two wheel drift feel gives you a fine tuning knob on line choice. Front to back weight shifts cause nice smooth under or over steer as you are in a pocket. She ran the wrong tires at the Olympics as she ran full mudders vs the XR2 that Neff rode.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Pls post more I love the comedy. If you can't adjust stem length, then how do you set up a bike of the same size for riders of different heights and different proportions?


Just slack it out, bro.

We can sit here and pretend that this is an engineering marvel and improvement in the bike industry, but it's just a Trend driven by design innovations and experimentation in "Trail", but just as much so, a business decision by manufacturers to stop having two versions of every CSU and a discounted fork inventory that has to be clearanced when new models come out. If bike companies are told by fox and Sram "hey just to let you know, we are going to phase out 51 offset" on a zoom conference call, then all of the bikes are going to start having a 5-7 mm longer reach and longer Top tubes in their design updates.

All that being said, I'm going to go out and shred on my 71 degree HA '13 hardtail and beat Chomoxxo down every hill.

Ive run a 51 offset and a 44 offset 120 fork on the same Downcountry bike for long periods of time. The only noticeable difference and adjustment to make in riding is the extreme weight difference of 300 grams coming off the front.

OH AND&#8230;On extreme angles going up 45 degree step ups, I have hit my quads on the crown. Twice in the last few weeks. I'll either make slight adjustments over time with body position or keep getting occasional bruises. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

Brad said:


> Sid ultimate with charger race day damper can take 160 to 200 mm rotors.


 No, 180mm only


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Rock Shox have released a new Rock Shox Reverb AXS XPLR dropper seatpost. It's 27.2mm diameter and comes in either a 50mm or 75mm drop. This new version has a claimed weight of 560g, which is about 100g less than the Reverb AXS dropper seatpost.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rockshoxs-reverb-axs-xplr-dropper-is-for-more-than-just-gravel.html



The way to identify this Reverb AXS XPLR post in photos is that it has a black collar whilst the Reverb AXS post has a silver collar. There are likely going to be at least a few of these lighter weight Reverb AXS XPLR posts in use at the remaining World Cups later this year.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^still 100 to 200 gm heavier than 9Point8, Fox, DT etc.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ccm said:


> ^still 100 to 200 gm heavier than 9Point8, Fox, DT etc.


And 100g lighter than the post they were using before.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^ and the weight of the original reverb was 520 grams (including remote, hose and hardware)


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Torn, personally, but I believe that these sub-100mm droppers are a little silly. I think the first model to chop the travel down for the sake of weight was the KS Lev Carbon. Here's David Salero Valano's bronze-medal bike:










Definitely better than not having one on that gnarly Tokyo course, but he's 6'2"...

The Fox Transfer SL goes to 100mm and is still about 161-200g lighter than the AXS. A standard AXS post (100-170mm) will literally add a full pound to a bike vs rigid carbon.









Explore Transfer SL Seatposts | FOX


FOX redefines ride dynamics for ATVs, mountain bikes, motocross, off-road vehicles, snowmobiles, trucks, and UTVs.




www.ridefox.com







WR304 said:


> Rock Shox have released a new Rock Shox Reverb AXS XPLR dropper seatpost. It's 27.2mm diameter and comes in either a 50mm or 75mm drop. This new version has a claimed weight of 560g, which is about 100g less than the Reverb AXS dropper seatpost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

chomxxo said:


> The Fox Transfer SL goes to 100mm and is still about 161-200g lighter than the AXS. A standard AXS post (100-170mm) will literally add a full pound to a bike vs rigid carbon.


I just got the Transfer SL for my wife. It's definitely lighter than the AXS. That said, it's pretty finicky. If anything impedes it on the way up, it kinda just jams where it is, and then you have to bounce it down first before trying to raise it again. I don't think it's massively lighter than the KS Lev CI 125mm, something like 30-50g? I'll probably end up swapping her out for a lev, and then use the transfer for myself, for happy-wife-happy-life reasons.


----------



## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

9Point8 R Line is 384gm (75 mm stroke) to 438gm (125 mm stroke) in 30.9 dia
Installed Weight includes: Inline Head, ThumB Remote, and 1200mm of Cable








9point8 | Dropper Seatposts, Clamps, Remotes, and More Bike Components


9point8 provides world-class dropper seatposts, built for users searching for performance and reliability in their bike components.




www.9point8.ca


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

bikeranzin said:


> I just got the Transfer SL for my wife. It's definitely lighter than the AXS. That said, it's pretty finicky. If anything impedes it on the way up, it kinda just jams where it is, and then you have to bounce it down first before trying to raise it again. I don't think it's massively lighter than the KS Lev CI 125mm, something like 30-50g? I'll probably end up swapping her out for a lev, and then use the transfer for myself, for happy-wife-happy-life reasons.


Should be able to up the pressure in the post to have a quicker and more forceful return. This is the case for my 9point8 dropper where I have the max air pressure in the post and its a very aggressive return.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

MI-XC said:


> Should be able to up the pressure in the post to have a quicker and more forceful return. This is the case for my 9point8 dropper where I have the max air pressure in the post and its a very aggressive return.


I don't think that's how the transfer sl works. It's fully mechanical. It also has a good return speed, but it's weak and/or jams easily.

I'm pretty sure this was the post that the world cuppers we're having issues with early in the season. I'm thinking Linda Indergand at the NMNM short track?


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Out of curiosity, which version do you have, performance or Kashima? I was looking at the 31.6/100 Kashima but they aren’t available until November in the US, according to Fox and few online retailers I’ve contacted.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

bikeranzin said:


> I just got the Transfer SL for my wife. It's definitely lighter than the AXS. That said, it's pretty finicky. If anything impedes it on the way up, it kinda just jams where it is, and then you have to bounce it down first before trying to raise it again. I don't think it's massively lighter than the KS Lev CI 125mm, something like 30-50g? I'll probably end up swapping her out for a lev, and then use the transfer for myself, for happy-wife-happy-life reasons.


I have only had two of them, so not really a lot of experience yet. But here are a couple of notes I have with the SL

1. Watch the torque on your seat collar. Put friction past and torque to 4-5nm, too tight and they stick. That is what happened to Linda at Albstadt (she was also on a protype).
2. They work best with a longer through dropper leaver. The older short throw Fox leavers do not have enough torque and will stick if you are sitting on the saddle.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> I have only had two of them, so not really a lot of experience yet. But here are a couple of notes I have with the SL
> 
> 1. Watch the torque on your seat collar. Put friction past and torque to 4-5nm, too tight and they stick. That is what happened to Linda at Albstadt (she was also on a protype).
> 2. They work best with a longer through dropper leaver. The older short throw Fox leavers do not have enough torque and will stick if you are sitting on the saddle.


Yeah, I was careful about the torque. Fox says something like 5.8 Nm, which is the same as the collar spec for the Epic. But I had to drop it down to something like 3 or 4 to get smooth action.

I'm using the WolfTooth light action lever. Presumably that's okay?

The problem truly is that if something obstructs it, even slightly, going up, it'll stick.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

J21 said:


> The SRAM website spec listing would disagree? Says the Pulley Bearing Material is steel.
> 
> View attachment 1940493


As I had one on hand I took the seals off the SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur's jockey wheels to see what the bearings inside actually are. 

The upper jockey wheel (black bearing shield) has 7 x steel ball bearings (silver, magnetic). The bearing races are steel and the bearing cage separating the bearings looks like plastic.

The lower jockey wheel (blue bearing shield) has 6 x steel ball bearings (silver, magnetic) but then there is also a single ceramic ball bearing (black, non-magnetic). The bearing races are steel and the bearing cage separating the bearings looks like plastic.

I guess that one ceramic ball bearing is the absolute minimum required to be able to claim that the bearings are "ceramic" bearings...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

ccm said:


> ^still 100 to 200 gm heavier than 9Point8, Fox, DT etc.


None of those include the lever and cable whereas the XPLR Reverb AXS weight does include the remote..



MI-XC said:


> Should be able to up the pressure in the post to have a quicker and more forceful return. This is the case for my 9point8 dropper where I have the max air pressure in the post and its a very aggressive return.


Transffer SL uses a mechanical coil spring as the return mechanism so the only way to get it moving faster is to fit a stronger spring that isn't available from Fox yet.



WR304 said:


> As I had one on hand I took the seals off the SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur's jockey wheels to see what the bearings inside actually are.
> 
> The upper jockey wheel (black bearing shield) has 7 x steel ball bearings (silver, magnetic). The bearing races are steel and the bearing cage separating the bearings looks like plastic.
> 
> ...


One ceramic ball does not a ceramic bearing make but it will create all the drawbacks.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Brad said:


> None of those include the lever and cable whereas the XPLR Reverb AXS weight does include the remote..
> 
> Transffer SL uses a mechanical coil spring as the return mechanism so the only way to get it moving faster is to fit a stronger spring that isn't available from Fox yet.
> 
> One ceramic ball does not a ceramic bearing make but it will create all the drawbacks.





ccm said:


> 9Point8 R Line is 384gm (75 mm stroke) to 438gm (125 mm stroke) in 30.9 dia
> Installed Weight includes: Inline Head, ThumB Remote, and 1200mm of Cable


Fox Transfer SL
27.2 x 50mm, 350mm extended length, Starting Weight: 327g (+68 g for 1X lever and 1200mm of cable = 395g)
27.2 x 70mm, 370mm extended length, Starting Weight: 338g (+68 g for 1X lever and 1200mm of cable = 406g)


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

I don't see any positives with an AXS seatpost.
For me to put up with the negatives (weight, cost, complexity...), I would expect it to have a motor to self lower, and be tied into a GPS (along the suspension lock-outs) and automatically lower and rise according to the course/trail loaded into the GPS .


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

GPS dropper sounds awful. Up or down within 10 feet of where you need it. Also, not every negative slope needs it down.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

by the time SRAM builds a motor into a 560 gm seatpost, I expect 7G internet GPS (accurate to the mm) will be available on the WC circuit and your tech crew would program it based on your training laps
but really I won't be a WC racer when it happens, and I would hate it, like I hate my Fox fork with the Terralogic Brain


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

WR304 said:


> As I had one on hand I took the seals off the SRAM XX1 AXS rear derailleur's jockey wheels to see what the bearings inside actually are.
> 
> The upper jockey wheel (black bearing shield) has 7 x steel ball bearings (silver, magnetic). The bearing races are steel and the bearing cage separating the bearings looks like plastic.
> 
> ...


In a normal hybrid bearing the ceramic balls push the dirt into the softer steel races to keep the races smooth and running longer. Perhaps they can get some of that "cleaning" effect even with just one ceramic ball.


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Brad said:


> One ceramic ball does not a ceramic bearing make but it will create all the drawbacks.


Those exact jockey wheels when sold aftermarket are listed as having ceramic bearings. I think they're far more steel than ceramic. This is just one example but the product description is the same as used elsewhere too:






SRAM Eagle XX1/X012SP Ceramic Pulleys | Jenson USA







www.jensonusa.com





_"Genuine SRAM replacement pulleys for XX1/XO1 Eagle 12-speed rear derailleurs. Each pulley features ceramic bearings to ensure that they continue to spin fast and smooth for many miles." _*Jenson USA product page*

That one bearing in there might be enough to make it technically count as a ceramic bearing though?


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Skier78 said:


> In a normal hybrid bearing the ceramic balls push the dirt into the softer steel races to keep the races smooth and running longer. Perhaps they can get some of that "cleaning" effect even with just one ceramic ball.


I'm pretty sure that's complete BS. Once you get dirt inside of your bearings you are f***, regardless of "ceramic balls pushing the dirt"  Bearings are sealed with exactly that reason to prevent dirt entering bearing. So I would agree with @WR304 that single ceramic ball is there so they can be able to claim pulley has ceramic bearings, even though it's as @Brad wrote, that it creates all the drawbacks of ceramic bearings without bringing any benefit.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The past 15 or so posts have nothing to do with World Cup bikes...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

primoz said:


> I'm pretty sure that's complete BS. Once you get dirt inside of your bearings you are f***, regardless of "ceramic balls pushing the dirt"  Bearings are sealed with exactly that reason to prevent dirt entering bearing. So I would agree with @WR304 that single ceramic ball is there so they can be able to claim pulley has ceramic bearings, even though it's as @Brad wrote, that it creates all the drawbacks of ceramic bearings without bringing any benefit.


Depending on the seal. Most seals are designed to keep oil in the bearing but not keep dirt out. Dirt does get pushed aside by the Rollers but this only occurs when the dirt ingress is minimal. Dirt in a ceramic bearing is a killer because that roller is so hard it just slides when it encounters dirt. That sliding kills the race. Ceramic bearings were designed to run in a pass through lubrication system where it sees a continuous flow of oil. For bicycles they're just a marketing gimmick and it's pretty cynical of sram to use a single ceramic roller in a steel bearing while charging for a ceramic bearing....


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

New Canyon bike. They are selling it as a long travel XC bike, but it could be a WC race bike.

Super long reach on each size. At 440mm of reach the small has just about the same reach as a medium Epic.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-the-new-lux-trail-downcountry-for-the-backcountry.html


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

We will see if MvdP uses it or not soon enough...

Like it though. If it doesn't break, on paper it looks like a very light and capable option.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Pretty sure he's ben using this season already despite only being launched now.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

LMN said:


> New Canyon bike. They are selling it as a long travel XC bike, but it could be a WC race bike.
> 
> Super long reach on each size. At 440mm of reach the small has just about the same reach as a medium Epic.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-the-new-lux-trail-downcountry-for-the-backcountry.html


I saw that measurement. This might be the first bike in a long time that I'd prefer a medium to a large. 460mm reach is plenty for an XC bike at 5'9.5".


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> The past 15 or so posts have nothing to do with World Cup bikes...


Did you report it to the mods? (rolling eyes)


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> The past 15 or so posts have nothing to do with World Cup bikes...


WC is an abbrev. for World Cup


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Right, are you a WC racer? GPS seatpost, I assume you're lampooning there. I think an terrain-sensitive seatpost would be a cool idea. It would definitely take some refinement, and the AXS is already too heavy for most XC racers.



ccm said:


> WC is an abbrev. for World Cup


Here's another link to the Lux Trail, great news.





Canyon debuts Lux Trail "Downcountry" bike


The Lux Trail not only gets you to the top of the climb first, it also gets you to the bottom of the mountain before everybody else.




www.canyon.com





I find it puzzling that it's 120/110-specific, with no 100mm version. However the new long reach means that Canyon finally acknowledges this as a plus. The fairly new standard of 67.5* HTA is good as well. I predict that the prior XCO Lux geometry will be obsoleted soon as well. Thank goodness.

This would be a huge upgrade for MVDP. However even a dropper post would cure a lot of ills in his bike setup--look at Neff.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> I saw that measurement. This might be the first bike in a long time that I'd prefer a medium to a large. 460mm reach is plenty for an XC bike at 5'9.5".


Lots of conversations about downsizing as these bikes keep getting longer and longer. I have been riding a medium Epic the past couple of weeks, I definitely would like to try a small.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

tommyrod74 said:


> I saw that measurement. This might be the first bike in a long time that I'd prefer a medium to a large. 460mm reach is plenty for an XC bike at 5'9.5".


You're 5'9.5" and riding a large? That last .5" probably depends how your hair is done too lol.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

Salbutamol bass said:


> You're 5'9.5" and riding a large? That last .5" probably depends how your hair is done too lol.


I've only ridden larges since, gosh, 29ers became a mainstream thing. Around 2011 or so. I've always liked a longer reach and at my height, it's never been an issue at all. On a medium the front wheel always seemed too much tucked under me if that makes sense.

With these recent bikes, it would be possible to ride a medium again, with the associated lower stack height.

I always ride a size 54 road bike. 56 is just too big in almost every brand.

5 feet 9.5 inches with shaved head, from the doctors office measurement. I've been saying 5 feet 10 for years but finally realized that's not quite accurate. Oh well.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Crazy idea but bear with me: shorten your stem length. Some folks will never, ever get it, it seems. Call me when you get to 35mm, then we can talk about bikes being too big.

Back on topic (or just scroll up), 60 is the new 100mm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

LMN said:


> Lots of conversations about downsizing as these bikes keep getting longer and longer. I have been riding a medium Epic the past couple of weeks, I definitely would like to try a small.


This... I used to ride Medium frames, now I size down to Small with a 400mm seat post.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

MessagefromTate said:


> This... I used to ride Medium frames, now I size down to Small with a 400mm seat post.


It interesting riding a bike that has too long of a top tube. I find I am struggling with a wandering front end. When climbing at pace I really have to focus to keep that front wheel where I want it. A longer stem fixes this a small amount but when the problem is the front wheel is too far in front of me changing the stem isn't really the issue.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

LMN said:


> New Canyon bike. They are selling it as a long travel XC bike, but it could be a WC race bike.
> 
> Super long reach on each size. At 440mm of reach the small has just about the same reach as a medium Epic.
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-the-new-lux-trail-downcountry-for-the-backcountry.html


I certainly hope it's made better then current Lux is. My half year old Lux has cracked seatstay and Canyon signs me off with "it's no material fault, you can buy new frame under crash replacement". With no crashes (rear triangle is without a single scratch or impact sign), they said reason for this is "overload". Officially bike is suppose to handle 120kg rider and jumps up to 60cm. I'm 75kg and I never jump and I ride way more mellow trails then normal XCO races are held on, so overload sounds pretty much impossible.
So with such quality and especially with such customer service and with having warranty just on paper, but in reality there's no warranty as Canyon simply signs you off with some ridiculous claim, I certainly hope this Lux Trail will be build way way better then current Lux is. Otherwise get used to shell out 1500eur every month or two.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Brad said:


> Depending on the seal. Most seals are designed to keep oil in the bearing but not keep dirt out. Dirt does get pushed aside by the Rollers but this only occurs when the dirt ingress is minimal. Dirt in a ceramic bearing is a killer because that roller is so hard it just slides when it encounters dirt. That sliding kills the race. Ceramic bearings were designed to run in a pass through lubrication system where it sees a continuous flow of oil. For bicycles they're just a marketing gimmick and it's pretty cynical of sram to use a single ceramic roller in a steel bearing while charging for a ceramic bearing....


I'm not sure I agree with you, the xtr bsa bottom brackets were the best on the market, all things considered.

Not only were they top performers, they would outlast pretty much any other brand, the seals were also exceptional.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

primoz said:


> I certainly hope it's made better then current Lux is. My half year old Lux has cracked seatstay and Canyon signs me off with "it's no material fault, you can buy new frame under crash replacement". With no crashes (rear triangle is without a single scratch or impact sign), they said reason for this is "overload". Officially bike is suppose to handle 120kg rider and jumps up to 60cm. I'm 75kg and I never jump and I ride way more mellow trails then normal XCO races are held on, so overload sounds pretty much impossible.
> So with such quality and especially with such customer service and with having warranty just on paper, but in reality there's no warranty as Canyon simply signs you off with some ridiculous claim, I certainly hope this Lux Trail will be build way way better then current Lux is. Otherwise get used to shell out 1500eur every month or two.


You should buy a LOOK. Brilliant frames, very well made, painted with something resembling paint that cant handle sweat, or energy drinks. So basically the moment you sling a leg over a new bicycle and pedal it the paint and material warranties are void.



TDLover said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you, the xtr bsa bottom brackets were the best on the market, all things considered.
> 
> Not only were they top performers, they would outlast pretty much any other brand, the seals were also exceptional.


Yes those were top performers but they also used bearings that had a proper contact seal and they had a dust cover that created a semi labyrinth seal. The rubber contact seal worked ok in a BB because you didn't feel the seal drag at 100rpm. Those BB's were amongst the most durable made since true cup and cone with labyrinth seals. All modern BB's use low drag non contact rubber seals with no dust cover. The LS seal really just keeps the grease inside the bearing and nothing more than that


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Brad said:


> You should buy a LOOK. Brilliant frames, very well made, painted with something resembling paint that cant handle sweat, or energy drinks. So basically the moment you sling a leg over a new bicycle and pedal it the paint and material warranties are void.


I dunno, my Look 675 has been sweated all over with my corrosive sweat and it it has had no issues at all...unlike my Cannondale Synapse which cracked the seat tube after 700km of gentle riding.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

primoz said:


> I certainly hope it's made better then current Lux is. My half year old Lux has cracked seatstay and Canyon signs me off with "it's no material fault, you can buy new frame under crash replacement". With no crashes (rear triangle is without a single scratch or impact sign), they said reason for this is "overload". Officially bike is suppose to handle 120kg rider and jumps up to 60cm. I'm 75kg and I never jump and I ride way more mellow trails then normal XCO races are held on, so overload sounds pretty much impossible.
> So with such quality and especially with such customer service and with having warranty just on paper, but in reality there's no warranty as Canyon simply signs you off with some ridiculous claim, I certainly hope this Lux Trail will be build way way better then current Lux is. Otherwise get used to shell out 1500eur every month or two.


I guess we know why they are cheap!


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## borisb (Nov 15, 2017)

LMN said:


> I guess we know why they are cheap!


My friend waited 7 months for warranty frame replacement from Canyon.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

borisb said:


> My friend waited 7 months for warranty frame replacement from Canyon.


That explains why MvdP had such a lenghty break from XCO racing...probably waited for his warranty replacement.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

chomxxo said:


> Crazy idea but bear with me: shorten your stem length. Some folks will never, ever get it, it seems. Call me when you get to 35mm, then we can talk about bikes being too big.
> 
> Back on topic (or just scroll up), 60 is the new 100mm.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Currently on a 50mm stem, 475 reach bike. Don't want to go any shorter for XC racing, so I figure a 460 reach with 60-65mm stem would be great on the next bike.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

primoz said:


> I certainly hope it's made better then current Lux is. My half year old Lux has cracked seatstay and Canyon signs me off with "it's no material fault, you can buy new frame under crash replacement". With no crashes (rear triangle is without a single scratch or impact sign), they said reason for this is "overload". Officially bike is suppose to handle 120kg rider and jumps up to 60cm. I'm 75kg and I never jump and I ride way more mellow trails then normal XCO races are held on, so overload sounds pretty much impossible.
> So with such quality and especially with such customer service and with having warranty just on paper, but in reality there's no warranty as Canyon simply signs you off with some ridiculous claim, I certainly hope this Lux Trail will be build way way better then current Lux is. Otherwise get used to shell out 1500eur every month or two.


Well, now we know why MVDP was looking for the ramp, as the drop was greater than 60cm.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

Brad said:


> Pretty sure he's ben using this season already despite only being launched now.


Canyon should have launched the BIKE at the Olympics&#8230;


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Crazy idea but bear with me: shorten your stem length. Some folks will never, ever get it, it seems. Call me when you get to 35mm, then we can talk about bikes being too big.
> 
> Back on topic (or just scroll up), 60 is the new 100mm.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What about a type of direct mount stem? Stretch the reach more so your bars are actually inline with the steerer tube not out in front of it.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

GSPChilliwack said:


> Canyon should have launched the BIKE at the Olympics&#8230;


Maybe that was the plan. After MvDP stood on the high step of the podium, BOOM: a new Canyon! But, as things went, they waited a few weeks for everyone to "forget" the Olympics.


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## drag_slick (Sep 24, 2004)

GSPChilliwack said:


> Canyon should have launched the BIKE at the Olympics&#8230;


Well... MvDP did launch a bike for them.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

LMN said:


> I guess we know why they are cheap!


TBH I don't find them that cheap anymore. Mid range Specialized have better components and higher grade frame at similar price range.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

GSPChilliwack said:


> Well, now we know why MVDP was looking for the ramp, as the drop was greater than 60cm.


 even so the warranty was definitely void after the landing


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Pretty sure he's ben using this season already despite only being launched now.


I don't think he has been

These bikes are *long* and have quite a slack seat angle in terms of modern bikes. Anybody riding one of these is going to be on a short stem, particularly if they are tall. MVPD is still running a pretty conventional stem.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

drag_slick said:


> Well... MvDP did launch a bike for them.


LOL, best post of the thread. MVDP is the man, don't get me wrong, but that was hilarious.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I don't think he has been
> 
> These bikes are *long* and have quite a slack seat angle in terms of modern bikes. Anybody riding one of these is going to be on a short stem, particularly if they are tall. MVPD is still running a pretty conventional stem.


Their geo isn't too diffferent except that they seem to start with a medium that they can small. Its like they just acrapped a proper small and moved the next up down the size chart.So if he rode an XL in the past he can size down to a large or medium and still be on a similar sized frame


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Is there any way to visually identify a Canyon Lux CF 100mm vs a Canyon Lux Trail CF 110mm?

From photos it's really hard to tell which is which as they look so similar. The top picture is a Mathieu Van Der Poel Canyon Lux from May 2021 whilst the lower picture is a new Canyon Lux Trail CF.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

Only diff I can see the the longer travel Stanchions on the Trail


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Mvdp steps his fox 34 sc down to 100mm


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> We've seen it before but I think this photo points out that Nino's stem length mostly serves to compensate for his backsweep to keep from having a negative reach (which does sometimes happen in DH bikes). Looks proportionally a lot like my setup, FWIW.


What the hell is negative reach?


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

[Double post]


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> Mvdp steps his fox 34 sc down to 100mm


The new 34SC has 100mm as a factory option. Catharine used one on her Olympic bike.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> The new 34SC has 100mm as a factory option. Catharine used one on her Olympic bike.


I see that the 100mm is now a factory option as well. It wasn't last year.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> I see that the 100mm is now a factory option as well. It wasn't last year.


I think within a year or two you will not be able to buy the SC 32, the new SC 34 is so close in weight that it really doesn't make sense to continue making and evolving the SC 32.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I think within a year or two you will not be able to buy the SC 34 is so close in weight that it really doesn't make sense to continue making and evolving the 32.


You mean the SC32?

TBH, 100mm travel XC bikes days are numbered. BB's are just too low and the weight difference between the 100mm travel and 120mm travel FS XCO bikes is so close that tyre choice and dropper post options more than make up the difference. I certainly wont buy another 100mm travel FS XCO bike. I tried a Scalpel SE with Lefty 120, its really good even without the Hi-Mod frame. The extra weight is noticeable but the spec isn't compiled for weight savings but the form and open compression settings works really well. Specialized Epic Evo also just feels right


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> You mean the SC32?


Fixed my comment


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> You mean the SC32?
> 
> TBH, 100mm travel XC bikes days are numbered. BB's are just too low and the weight difference between the 100mm travel and 120mm travel FS XCO bikes is so close that tyre choice and dropper post options more than make up the difference. I certainly wont buy another 100mm travel FS XCO bike. I tried a Scalpel SE with Lefty 120, its really good even without the Hi-Mod frame. The extra weight is noticeable but the spec isn't compiled for weight savings but the form and open compression settings works really well. Specialized Epic Evo also just feels right


That Evo is a pretty sweet bike.

Honestly for the racing that I do a 120mm bike is definitely the way to go. Our descents are so long that something that allows me to maintain my pace is important. I need to a lot more pushups to be able hold my descending pace on a 100mm bike.

My struggle is find the 120mm fork puts me pretty upright. I had one on my bike last year and although I loved the way it descended I wasn't happy with the pedalling position. I could have probably fixed it with a different stem, but I had 35mm Next SL bar on at the time and -20degree stems are hard to find in 35mm.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> That Evo is a pretty sweet bike.
> 
> Honestly for the racing that I do a 120mm bike is definitely the way to go. Our descents are so long that something that allows me to maintain my pace is important. I need to a lot more pushups to be able hold my descending pace on a 100mm bike.
> 
> My struggle is find the 120mm fork puts me pretty upright. I had one on my bike last year and although I loved the way it descended I wasn't happy with the pedalling position. I could have probably fixed it with a different stem, but I had 35mm Next SL bar on at the time and -20degree stems are hard to find in 35mm.


I'd size down and fit a longer-17 degree stem. The stack of 120mm travel bikes is a problem. Stack on a 100mm travel 29er is already an issue for me so its just 20mm worse. Bit he shorter reach means I fit a longer stem and then use a -17 or -20 and we're back in reasonable territory


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> I'd size down and fit a longer-17 degree stem. The stack of 120mm travel bikes is a problem. Stack on a 100mm travel 29er is already an issue for me so its just 20mm worse. Bit he shorter reach means I fit a longer stem and then use a -17 or -20 and we're back in reasonable territory


Except, if you crunch the numbers even with a -20 stem your bars are higher with a longer stem.

With a 67 HA you stem needs to be at -23 to have no rise. Anything greater than that your bars get higher as the stem gets longer. Take a look at an Epic Evo, if you are on a large with a -17 50mm stem and switch to a medium with a -17 80mm stem your bars will only be 1.5mm lower.

A better strategy would be to run shorter cranks. Switch from 175mm to 165mm would lift your seat 10mm putting you pretty close to your original position but when descending you would still have the benefits of a slightly higher front end. At least that is the the theory.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

LMN said:


> That Evo is a pretty sweet bike.
> 
> Honestly for the racing that I do a 120mm bike is definitely the way to go. Our descents are so long that something that allows me to maintain my pace is important. I need to a lot more pushups to be able hold my descending pace on a 100mm bike.
> 
> My struggle is find the 120mm fork puts me pretty upright. I had one on my bike last year and although I loved the way it descended I wasn't happy with the pedalling position. I could have probably fixed it with a different stem, but I had 35mm Next SL bar on at the time and -20degree stems are hard to find in 35mm.


With my new bike I had a hard time getting the front tire to bite with the stock 120mm fork as well as not feeling as sharp handling as my old bike despite similar HTA 68.7 vs 68.2, stack 605mm vs 610mm & STA of 74 vs 74.8. 
The reach is 432mm vs 445mm on the new bike so went from a 75mm stem to 60mm. I ended up dropping the fork to 110mm and though it increased the reach by a few mm it felt like a positive change in pedaling and handling.


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

@LMN @Brad how tall are both of you?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Udyr said:


> @LMN @Brad how tall are both of you?


172cm


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Udyr said:


> @LMN @Brad how tall are both of you?


I am 165cm


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## Udyr (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you both for sharing. It's interesting to see the differences in fit between proportions.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Brad said:


> The stack of 120mm travel bikes is a problem. Stack on a 100mm travel 29er is already an issue for me so its just 20mm worse.


actually the 120 forks cut down too 100 are a bit taller than 100 travel specific forks. In reality it's going to be 25mm difference in stack at 120 travel.


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## Lahrs (Jun 7, 2008)

... now adjust stack height, allowing for sag. And head tube angle for that matter.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

response3 said:


> What the hell is negative reach?


Meaning that the backsweep and the short stem length reduce the reach of the bike, rather than add to it. It's not necessarily a bad effect to the handling, but probably not something you want on an XC bike. As we were saying, that's why longer stem/bar combos of Syncros have greater backsweep, and the shorter virtual stemmed versions don't--good news is that the hands end up in around the same place.



WR304 said:


> Is there any way to visually identify a Canyon Lux CF 100mm vs a Canyon Lux Trail CF 110mm?
> 
> From photos it's really hard to tell which is which as they look so similar. The top picture is a Mathieu Van Der Poel Canyon Lux from May 2021 whilst the lower picture is a new Canyon Lux Trail CF.
> 
> ...


We should also talk about "true head tube angle," because if there is only one way to visually identify them at a distance, it's that terribly long stem on MVDP's bike. Wherever the bars are placed forward towards the axle is the true head angle.

Looking down from the hoods of my road bike, for instance, it's further forward than the wheel axle--negative HTA  Not good.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

While the tire bite issue is something that others might take the other directon, you did the right thing, kudos. It's not so bad to steer from the rear of the bike, something old XC bikes physically can't do, but with a dropper post, you can.

Despite outcries to the contrary, many World Cup XC pros already have shown their ability to accept the new bikes as better, ride like this and succeed, Flueckiger for instance.



joecx said:


> With my new bike I had a hard time getting the front tire to bite with the stock 120mm fork as well as not feeling as sharp handling as my old bike despite similar HTA 68.7 vs 68.2, stack 605mm vs 610mm & STA of 74 vs 74.8.
> The reach is 432mm vs 445mm on the new bike so went from a 75mm stem to 60mm. I ended up dropping the fork to 110mm and though it increased the reach by a few mm it felt like a positive change in pedaling and handling.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Meaning that the backsweep and the short stem length reduce the reach of the bike, rather than add to it. It's not necessarily a bad effect to the handling, but probably not something you want on an XC bike. As we were saying, that's why longer stem/bar combos of Syncros have greater backsweep, and the shorter virtual stemmed versions don't--good news is that the hands end up in around the same place.
> 
> We should also talk about "true head tube angle," because if there is only one way to visually identify them at a distance, it's that terribly long stem on MVDP's bike. Wherever the bars are placed forward towards the axle is the true head angle.
> 
> Looking down from the hoods of my road bike, for instance, it's further forward than the wheel axle--negative HTA  Not good.


Ahh, so you're just making terms up. ?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> We should also talk about "true head tube angle," because if there is only one way to visually identify them at a distance, it's that terribly long stem on MVDP's bike. Wherever the bars are placed forward towards the axle is the true head angle.
> 
> Looking down from the hoods of my road bike, for instance, it's further forward than the wheel axle--negative HTA  Not good.


looks like 2 made up "theories" in 1 post.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

joecx said:


> With my new bike I had a hard time getting the front tire to bite with the stock 120mm fork as well as not feeling as sharp handling as my old bike despite similar HTA 68.7 vs 68.2, stack 605mm vs 610mm & STA of 74 vs 74.8.
> The reach is 432mm vs 445mm on the new bike so went from a 75mm stem to 60mm. I ended up dropping the fork to 110mm and though it increased the reach by a few mm it felt like a positive change in pedaling and handling.


It is amazing how those 13mm of reach change the feel.

I am really struggling with these longer reach bikes with what I describe as plow. I have to push really hard with my feet to get that front end up, it is actually pretty scary on steep rock faces. I have two bikes with 445 reach and 450 reach and both of them have that same characteristic. I have played with a really short stem on them (35mm) and it didn't really fix things. I went out today on an old hardtail that has a reach 395!! and just about flipped over backwards when I went to manual through a set bumps. I am really feeling at my height that sweet-spot for reach is 420-440, for me at least bikes in that range have that nice mix of maneuverability and stability.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

A measurement is not a theory. There are plenty of downhill and cruiser bikes with negative reach. What would you call it?

There are plenty of road bikes with negative head angle.

Just because guys like you haven't thought about it, well that's why bikes had been jacked up for so long.



response3 said:


> Ahh, so you're just making terms up. ?





Salbutamol bass said:


> looks like 2 made up "theories" in 1 post.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> A measurement is not a theory. There are plenty of downhill and cruiser bikes with negative reach. What would you call it?
> 
> There are plenty of road bikes with negative head angle.
> 
> Just because guys like you haven't thought about it, well that's why bikes had been jacked up for so long.


I would call it negative stem length, the reach cannot be negative unless the bars are behind the bottom bracket.

Talking about world cup tech, it was interesting to see in the swiss cup that Sam Gaze won with a superlong stem (120mm?) so not on any new canyon model yet, and that Kate Courtney seemed to have a good day (4th despite a puncture) on her "old" hardtail. Course looked really fast though, so that probably had an impact on bike choice as well. She does seem to get punctures quite often, are the newest maxxis tires thinner than they used to be or is it the 170tpi model that is more fragile?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

There's always gonna be outliers and we've covered Mr. Gaze already quite thoroughly. I wish the best for him and MVDP as well but cringe when I watch them. I mean, now MVDP reports having back problems--my prediction about his serious injury came true...it came from watching Gaze and Kulhavy. They could do better on better Canyon bikes--hope that's coming soon and they won't try to fit it like it's a road or cross bike.

I have a set of Aspen WT 2.4s and was considering racing them this season on a new bike that fits them better. They seem pretty durable. I'd imagine the 170tpi pro compound must be the source of the puncture problems.



Skier78 said:


> I would call it negative stem length, the reach cannot be negative unless the bars are behind the bottom bracket.
> 
> Talking about world cup tech, it was interesting to see in the swiss cup that Sam Gaze won with a superlong stem (120mm?) so not on any new canyon model yet, and that Kate Courtney seemed to have a good day (4th despite a puncture) on her "old" hardtail. Course looked really fast though, so that probably had an impact on bike choice as well. She does seem to get punctures quite often, are the newest maxxis tires thinner than they used to be or is it the 170tpi model that is more fragile?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> A measurement is not a theory. There are plenty of downhill and cruiser bikes with negative reach. What would you call it?
> 
> There are plenty of road bikes with negative head angle.
> 
> Just because guys like you haven't thought about it, well that's why bikes had been jacked up for so long.


there's no negative head angle, you obviously don't understand basic geometry. Even following your flawed logic the supposed angle would just be greater than 90deg.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I am clearly missing out after activating the ignore function. Seems like I’ve missed some royal pearlers


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> A measurement is not a theory. There are plenty of downhill and cruiser bikes with negative reach. What would you call it?
> 
> There are plenty of road bikes with negative head angle.
> 
> Just because guys like you haven't thought about it, well that's why bikes had been jacked up for so long.


It's still called positive reach, albeit less than with a longer stem. But that's obvious, so I don't need to spend time thinking about it.

You clearly like posturing as some cycling intellectual and while many of your statements are factually correct, your condescending tone is pretty tiresome.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> there's no negative head angle, you obviously don't understand basic geometry. Even following your flawed logic the supposed angle would just be greater than 90deg.


Give it up.

You are playing chess with a pigeon.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Negative reach? Doesn’t exist unless you sitting back to front on a tandem. Bar sweep has nothing to do with reach per definition. It does affect the saddle to bar distance, but then so does bar width, sweep, bar roll (when the end is either rolled forward to raise the grip area or rolled back to drop the end of the bar. These are minor fit tweaks and don’t impact on your centre of gravity much. More to do with how the steering feels if you’re sensitive to that.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I don't get into personal spats, whatever tone you might be reading in is just an invitation to get into more of that. I'd suggest that you should take what I'm saying seriously and debate it if you disagree, instead of dismissing it.

Thanks for confirming the facts. That's all that really matters to me. But I'd like a term to define that handlebars behind the stem shortens the "true reach," or whatever we call it. I'm out of ideas on a Monday morning.



response3 said:


> It's still called positive reach, albeit less than with a longer stem. But that's obvious, so I don't need to spend time thinking about it.
> 
> You clearly like posturing as some cycling intellectual and while many of your statements are factually correct, your condescending tone is pretty tiresome.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

chomxxo said:


> I don't get into personal spats, whatever tone you might be reading in is just an invitation to get into more of that. I'd suggest that you should take what I'm saying seriously and debate it if you disagree, instead of dismissing it.
> 
> Thanks for confirming the facts. That's all that really matters to me. But I'd like a term to define that handlebars behind the stem shortens the "true reach," or whatever we call it. I'm out of ideas on a Monday morning.


 I think effective reach would be the term.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I honestly don't understand the argument that you will not get injured if you just ride a modern slack bike. If I am racing, I am pushing the limit. That limit is obviously lower on the old school bike but it's not like I'm not riding on the edge on a new school bike. I'm just going faster. It seems to me, the crashes will likely be even more spectacular, like in my MX days when I would be lying on the ground for minutes despite having 63 degree head angles and 300mm of travel front and rear.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> There's always gonna be outliers and we've covered Mr. Gaze already quite thoroughly. I wish the best for him and MVDP as well but cringe when I watch them. I mean, now MVDP reports having back problems--my prediction about his serious injury came true...it came from watching Gaze and Kulhavy. They could do better on better Canyon bikes--hope that's coming soon and they won't try to fit it like it's a road or cross bike.
> 
> I have a set of Aspen WT 2.4s and was considering racing them this season on a new bike that fits them better. They seem pretty durable. I'd imagine the 170tpi pro compound must be the source of the puncture problems.


He completely misrode a trail feature, having "negative reach", a 35mm stem with longer front to center or whatever other theory you are selling today would not have saved him.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

MessagefromTate said:


> He completely misrode a trail feature, having "negative reach", a 35mm stem with longer front to center or whatever other theory you are selling today would not have saved him.


Back to hot WC equipment. Gaze is back on old equipment with a roadie fit and giving it to the Scott boys on modern trail bikes&#8230;how can that be?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Back to hot WC equipment. Gaze is back on old equipment with a roadie fit and giving it to the Scott boys on modern trail bikes&#8230;how can that be?


The only reason he hasn't been dominant for the past 3 years is because he crashed on his old equipment. It has been clearly shown that it is impossible to get hurt on modern equipment. Just look at DH racing nobody is ever injured.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Exactly. If you are "safer" on the new equipment, then you are leaving something on the table. That extra margin of safety should be quickly absorbed by an increase in speed or why race?

I think where modern geometry does create more safety is in recreational riders who aren't pushing limits and haven't learned proper technique yet.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I recently got a shoulder injury on my NS bikes eccentric 65 HTA. Fell and hit my chin, shoulder and hip riding appx 10km/h, on a flat alphalt section. Freak accident, completely misjudged a sip of a drink and a 20cm pothole. 

Never had that in more than 2 decades on any of my old 73 HTA bikes.

So since root cause for my fall is that progressive bikes suck when you don't pay attention, I am invalidating them for everybody. By decree you are all ordered to return to >73° bikes.


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## Stewieftw (Jul 29, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> So as not to annoy the barefoot runners  I've created the 2021 version of this thread.
> 
> First topic of discussion would be Jordan Sarrou's bike. Like fellow winning Specialized Epic rider Haley Batten, Frenchman Jordan Sarrou rides a bike with a sane sizing and stem length, not even a negative rise. He finished in good placing on the short track with it in preparation for tomorrow's XCO race in Leogang.
> 
> ...


Think the Merida mtbs are in 10kg just off the factory floor.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> There are plenty of road bikes with negative head angle.


What in the world is a "negative head angle"? I've been around bikes for a lot of years. I haven't heard this one before.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Eric F said:


> What in the world is a "negative head angle"? I've been around bikes for a lot of years. I haven't heard this one before.


22nd century geometry


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Eric F said:


> What in the world is a "negative head angle"? I've been around bikes for a lot of years. I haven't heard this one before.


Just make sure you don't put him on your ignore list. I come here for the comedy of his posts.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

LMN said:


> The only reason he hasn't been dominant for the past 3 years is because he crashed on his old equipment. It has been clearly shown that it is impossible to get hurt on modern equipment. Just look at DH racing nobody is ever injured.


I heard the UCI will no longer be requiring helmets for DH if the geo numbers are "full slack"


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Just make sure you don't put him on your ignore list. I come here for the comedy of his posts.


yes i realise that I was shooting myself in the foot.Negative reach and negative head angles.
Seems like head angle is now measured from the hands through the axle. What happens when i learn to steer with my ....eer hips


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

joecx said:


> I think effective reach would be the term.


Works for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thinking back on this, Jordan Sarrou's Epic (2nd place yesterday) is on the heavy side at well over 23 pounds. It's probably the full AXS post which he still uses. It's a great post, but it's very heavy. It's definitely a 10kg bike as well with rigid post, or lighter.












Stewieftw said:


> Think the Merida mtbs are in 10kg just off the factory floor.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Eric F said:


> What in the world is a "negative head angle"? I've been around bikes for a lot of years. I haven't heard this one before.


It exists but you have to be in the Matrix.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

Eric F said:


> What in the world is a "negative head angle"? I've been around bikes for a lot of years. I haven't heard this one before.


Don't ask&#8230;


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> I don't get into personal spats, whatever tone you might be reading in is just an invitation to get into more of that. I'd suggest that you should take what I'm saying seriously and debate it if you disagree, instead of dismissing it.
> 
> Thanks for confirming the facts. That's all that really matters to me. But I'd like a term to define that handlebars behind the stem shortens the "true reach," or whatever we call it. I'm out of ideas on a Monday morning.


Seems like self awareness isn't his thing.

Moving on&#8230;if I lift my tire into the air before it hits a rock, does that increase my effective tire size or suspension travel? Discuss.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Ignore list definitely grew today, what a waste of time.

So yes, I agree with you. Except I don't agree with the first statement. If you compete with an old-school bike at the same speeds as the rest of the race field which is on modern bikes, you are either going to go slower or be more likely to crash. Which is what I think you're suggesting.



tick_magnet said:


> I honestly don't understand the argument that you will not get injured if you just ride a modern slack bike. If I am racing, I am pushing the limit. That limit is obviously lower on the old school bike but it's not like I'm not riding on the edge on a new school bike. I'm just going faster. It seems to me, the crashes will likely be even more spectacular, like in my MX days when I would be lying on the ground for minutes despite having 63 degree head angles and 300mm of travel front and rear.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> Ignore list definitely grew today, what a waste of time.
> 
> So yes, I agree with you. Except I don't agree with the first statement. If you compete with an old-school bike at the same speeds as the rest of the race field which is on modern bikes, you are either going to go slower or be more likely to crash. Which is what I think you're suggesting.


That is what I am saying. But most people, especially at the higher levels, race to compete not to play it safe. Racing is dangerous even if you are on the best bike because you will not be using that extra margin to be safe but to go fast. As someone pointed it out already, injuries and crashes are among the most spectacular in DH. Yet one can argue they are riding the "safest" bikes for DH. The bottomline is trying to use injury history as a predictor of whether a bike setup is good is a bad metric.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Yes, DH crashes are definitely the most spectacular. But I can't think of any race where I'd want to choose the slowest bike, or the one that tempted me to crash the most.

Anybody who knows a little about racing (but not too much  ), and can put their personal stakes aside, can see that MVDP, Gaze, and Kulhavy all have bikes that leave less margin for error than Nino, Flueckiger, and Sarrou race with.

See, the myth about old-school bikes was that they had some kind of advantage. But every old-school component has been disproven as being disadvantageous. Small wheels, hardtails, long stems, super weight-weenie setups don't win.

Deflection has been highly underrated as a drawback at the World Cup XCO level. It's been recently respected, thus the changes. I'll admit that longer bikes are more difficult on tight switchbacks, so there's your tradeoff. I don't detect any others; they're pretty light too.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Nobody is saying anything about choosing slower bikes. This is about whether injury history tells us much about equipment.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Yes, DH crashes are definitely the most spectacular. But I can't think of any race where I'd want to choose the slowest bike, or the one that tempted me to crash the most.
> 
> Anybody who knows a little about racing (but not too much  ), and can put their personal stakes aside, can see that MVDP, Gaze, and Kulhavy all have bikes that leave less margin for error than Nino, Flueckiger, and Sarrou race with.
> 
> ...


This is Sarrou in Japan.

Deflected allright.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Ignore list definitely grew today, what a waste of time.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Jolanda went otb today too


__
http://instagr.am/p/CS9s5Lpj_XG/


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Yes, DH crashes are definitely the most spectacular. But I can't think of any race where I'd want to choose the slowest bike, or the one that tempted me to crash the most.
> 
> Anybody who knows a little about racing (but not too much  ), and can put their personal stakes aside, can see that MVDP, Gaze, and Kulhavy all have bikes that leave less margin for error than Nino, Flueckiger, and Sarrou race with.
> 
> ...


What utter nonsense.
Margin for error is very specific to the situation. It is not a hard and fast rule or built in characteristic of any modern MTB built in the last few years. A MTB with your geometry is at risk of pedal strikes that out the bike off line while traversing rock gardens. A bike with a higher bb has more margin in that circumstance.any bicycle is at risk of sending the rider over the bar if the front wheel stops suddenly. This is a function of rider inertia rather than bicycle geometry.


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Brad said:


> any bicycle is at risk of sending the rider over the bar if the front wheel stops suddenly. This is a function of rider inertia rather than bicycle geometry.


The longer top tube, shorter stem, and slacker angles on current bikes put the center of gravity further behind the axle of the front wheel, which means it takes a more extreme circumstance to pitch the rider over the bars. Larger wheels not only roll over bigger obstacles better, but also put the COG lower in comparison to the front axle, again requiring a more extreme circumstance to disrupt things.

Misuse of the front brake, however, changes everything.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

And then there's this comment: "Small wheels, hardtails, long stems, super weight-weenie setups don't win."

Considering that Koretzky won on a hardtail with a 90mm stem in 2021, this statement is just factually wrong.

Honestly, chomxxo, I simply don't understand. Are you just sloppy, or do you deliberately believe in a post fact world? If it's the latter, you need to be more clever because some of the facts you lie about are easy to check and verify.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Sure 29er vs 26er was a substantial change.dropping the bb an extra 5mm has no effect or at most a very very small effect. A dropper post contributes more to lowering the riders CoG. A slightly longer front centre doesn’t change the riders CoG . Where the rider positions themself over the bike has a far bigger impact on the margin of error


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

Brad said:


> Sure 29er vs 26er was a substantial change.dropping the bb an extra 5mm has no effect or at most a very very small effect. A dropper post contributes more to lowering the riders CoG. A slightly longer front centre doesn't change the riders CoG . Where the rider positions themself over the bike has a far bigger impact on the margin of error


A longer top tube, shorter stem, and slacker head angle allows the rider to move their COG further behind the front axle, which changes where the tip-over point is. I'm sure you've experienced those moments where you're pushing right up against that edge of tip-over on a steep drop off. I know I have. Every little bit of extra margin for error becomes real important in those moments. I agree 100% that a dropper post is a big difference-maker.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Brad said:


> Sure 29er vs 26er was a substantial change.dropping the bb an extra 5mm has no effect or at most a very very small effect. A dropper post contributes more to lowering the riders CoG. A slightly longer front centre doesn't change the riders CoG . Where the rider positions themself over the bike has a far bigger impact on the margin of error


A dropper only changes COG if you move your COG.

Three true major benefits:
Landing- having room to compress your knees and absorb without being bucked. 
Not getting bucked forward by saddle of a lip while taking flight or hitting a large drop. 
Not hitting the back of the saddle while already riding out something that can be hit hi posted by someone who can rider proper.

The turning thing is complete bullshit in fact for someone my height, a slammed saddles wings hits my thighs and impedes movement more than while high posted. But shitty bike handlers can protest so much and gMBN can make a bunch of videos with a stop watch and sell the masses on bro science. Meanwhile I'll shred their face off high posted. And I'm just some mediocre middle aged man&#8230;

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

I’m confused, so only bikes with 35mm length stems can win races and are competitive and safe?


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

FJSnoozer said:


> The turning thing is complete bullshit in fact for someone my height, a slammed saddles wings hits my thighs and impedes movement more than while high posted. But shitty bike handlers can protest so much and gMBN can make a bunch of videos with a stop watch and sell the masses on bro science. Meanwhile I'll shred their face off high posted. And I'm just some mediocre middle aged man&#8230;


As another mediocre middle aged man, I have found that fitness and skills make more of a difference than the bike. Riding with my buddies (similar fitness levels) on full-squish dropper-post big-wheel modern bikes, the advantage of their bikes only comes into play when things get really steep or really rough. Generally speaking, I'm slower than my friends who are simply better bike handlers than me, and I'm faster than my friends who are not...and I'm on a hardtail 26er singlespeed, without a dropper post. I have found that an 80mm stem and riser bar is a better choice than the long, low, and narrow setup I used to race with, however. Would I be faster on a modern bike? Probably. Faster also means more damage when I make a mistake. I'm okay being a little slower.

That said, if I was still racing, I'm picking the bike with all of the advantages I can afford.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

Is this the world cup equipment thread?


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

joecx said:


> Is this the world cup equipment thread?


No, it's a dumpster fire fueled by the OP.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Can we back this up a bit? It's possible the different opinions here are driven off our local terrain. I really do think that the current bikes being raced are at a reasonable crossover point between trail and traditional XC.

As we talk about progression of bikes, what feature would really drive a new design to be slower, what are opinions on critical factors, and what is the crossover point?

I've intentionally moved back to racing XC from the trail bikes I raced in the Mountain West, so terrain matters (to LMNs point earlier, with I agree with 100%). I used to race 130/140mm trail bikes built light. I did really well on them and they were superb for long rough descents and long technical climbs. The Scott Genius 29 & last generation Horsethief were my favorites, but were very XC in geometry when compared to today's trail bikes. I say this to illustrate that I'm not just stuck in my ways against change and being dogmatic.

I now live in the upper midwest, and my local trails are equally (actually more) technical as those I rode out west, but they lack the long climbs and descents. Even on these technical trails, which happen to mandate fairly low speeds, I've found I can better manage and ride more on a 100/120mm XC bike, even with a 75mm stem. (Spark RC, vs Norco Sight before it)

So as I look to my next XC bike to replace my Spark I'm left wondering...what is the factor that hurts overall efficiency, where would I land if I could wish for the perfect bike? And how big a factor is terrain in that equation?


Travel?
I find that travel really doesn't seem to impact efficiency, as long as a lockout or travel reducing mode it available for sprints and climbing smooth terrain. On rough terrain, I've found lightly damped travel 120mm+ to be more efficient. 140mm + forks really suck the life out of a sprint for me if not locked but don't impact efficiency noticeably otherwise.

Weight distribution front to rear?
This I think is a factor, if not the most significant factor for two reasons. 1. On a more rear-biased bike, I find that I have to change body position to drive weight on the front tire for cornering...this takes energy. I also find that I am really committed to the front tire and when it goes, it's harder to recover. When weight is more naturally balanced, I find smaller body movements are needed, saving energy and making recovery from a slide quicker/easier. 2. I believe that tires rolling resistance goes up exponentially with load, and if you can more equally distribute weight the bike will roll faster and not require as high of tire pressure.
I preferred a more rear bias out west, but my tighter, yet very technical trails here, I prefer a bit less rear bias.

Overall weight?
Yep, it matters. It's noticeable, and I have never been able to post fast times on a bike that is over 26 lbs.

Head tube angle?
I think this matters, but only slightly. I've observed that I have to apply more leverage to the bar for standing climbs with a more slack HT angle. It has to take more energy, not sure how much. This really only seems to be noticeable below 67.5 deg to me. Nino actually looks uncomfortable on his new bike to me...to the effect I'm describing (and weight bias impact on cornering).

Fork Offset
I've found the reduced offset forks are less likely to hang up and tuck under the bike on rough tight corners. Less offset seems faster for me, but only in specific scenarios.

Seat tube angle
I've always preferred a forward position, so 75 degrees would probably be the sweet spot for me. It doesn't matter what the seat tube angle is, as long as I can get my setback where it always is...I am less efficient forward or backward from that. My CG always has to be about 20mm in front of the BB (one of the most important metrics for my bike fits, and yes, I get out the scales)

Reach
I don't think it matters to speed as long as I get my reach to the bar appropriate with stem length, it's resultant impact on weight bias, however, does matter.

Long story short, I never would have argued for XC like geometry numbers out west, but now that I'm riding tighter, technical trails. I see the value in them...but not back to the days of 430mm reach, 71 deg head tube angles, and 100 mm front travel though.

My dream speed machine here would look a lot like my current Spark RC, but with 110/130mm travel, 67.5 deg head tube angle, 450mm reach (large), 70mm stem, & 74.5 deg seat tube angles. I'd probably go with chain stays in the neighborhood of 440mm.

Out west, where the ability to plow through terrain at speed is beneficial, I'd go 120/140mm travel, while adding 20mm to the reach, pulling 20mm from the stem.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

Hypothetically would PFP have won gold if she was on a frame designed for a women? Not forced to use a 50mm stem, maybe around a 75mm stem on a frame with shorter reach. It was quite obvious that her front end was not weighted enough and the bike understeered. Maybe even a degree steeper head angle to help things out too.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

tick_magnet said:


> And then there's this comment: "Small wheels, hardtails, long stems, super weight-weenie setups don't win."
> 
> Considering that Koretzky won on a hardtail with a 90mm stem in 2021, this statement is just factually wrong.
> 
> Honestly, chomxxo, I simply don't understand. Are you just sloppy, or do you deliberately believe in a post fact world? If it's the latter, you need to be more clever because some of the facts you lie about are easy to check and verify.


OK that's the second time you called me a liar, Ignore list for you. Meanwhile, nothing from Koretsky since when he succeeded on a hardtail-friendly course. Sam Gaze also recently winning on a hardtail-friendly course. Let's check his previous results this year... 25th?

I think that anyone reasonable is going to see a trend here, and understands there will be outliers. As I've said many times before, I have no control over what racers race or what manufacturers produce. I can only block haters so quickly. The only thing I've got going for me, besides being tall, handsome, and fast, is that I humbly accept the facts


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Eric F said:


> A longer top tube, shorter stem, and slacker head angle allows the rider to move their COG further behind the front axle, which changes where the tip-over point is. I'm sure you've experienced those moments where you're pushing right up against that edge of tip-over on a steep drop off. I know I have. Every little bit of extra margin for error becomes real important in those moments. I agree 100% that a dropper post is a big difference-maker.


I've only encountered that tippy feeling when going into a feature too slowly. Anything that's going to stop my front wheel while the bike is pointed down is going to be a problem. Speed is my friend. The faster I can approach and execute the feature the safer I feel , to a point, the bike does nothing for me of set up the way I like it


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Back to world cup tech!
Laura Stigger on a hardtail in the world championship rock garden, love the look on the faces of the other riders 

__
http://instagr.am/p/CS_HAuvB-Qj/

New bike day for Jolanda Neff:

__
http://instagr.am/p/CS-F8VvL6lB/

I am usually not a fan of gold on bikes, but this one I think turned out quite good.

And a last one:
German Elisabeth Brandau (privateer racer) seems to have changed from Radon bikes to a BMC.
Both BMC fourstroke and the Duke rims seems to be very popular among the racers that are not connected to a special brand.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

course looks immaculate. It’s going to be good racing , treacherous if it rains


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chomxxo said:


> OK that's the second time you called me a liar, Ignore list for you. Meanwhile, nothing from Koretsky since when he succeeded on a hardtail-friendly course. Sam Gaze also recently winning on a hardtail-friendly course. Let's check his previous results this year... 25th?
> 
> I think that anyone reasonable is going to see a trend here, and understands there will be outliers. As I've said many times before, I have no control over what racers race or what manufacturers produce. I can only block haters so quickly. The only thing I've got going for me, besides being tall, handsome, and fast, is that I humbly accept the facts


Ignore me. Makes no difference to me. 
I didn't call you a liar. I posted a question. I asked are you being sloppy or being deliberate about making false statements. And btw, you making false statements is a fact, not my opinion. Check what you said against what happened. Shouldn't require an explanation.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

tick_magnet said:


> Ignore me. Makes no difference to me.
> I didn't call you a liar. I posted a question. I asked are you being sloppy or being deliberate about making false statements. And btw, you making false statements is a fact, not my opinion. Check what you said against what happened. Shouldn't require an explanation.


He ignores anyone that challenges his "ideas" with real facts.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

The sad thing is he probably has some valuable things to contribute if he didn't disregard basic facts so casually and with such ease. And then he creates alternative realities. If he can't get the simple stuff right (basic facts), it makes it hard for people to trust that he's capable of getting the more complex stuff right.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I think people might have it backwards as to how stem length and reach interact. To make a bike with a long reach fit we might choose to run a shorter stem, but we don't choose a bike with a long reach to run a shorter stem. It is a subtle but important difference.

Let us chat OTB, this is a topic that come up a lot. We go over the bars when we put out front wheel in a hole, (the videos of Sarrou, and Neff show this). So we need to not put our front wheel in holes. Generally the shorter a bike is the easier it is to loft that front wheel and keep it out of holes. This is why people love short stems, it makes the bike shorter and easier to loft that front end. If you make the reach longer and the stem short you are in the exact same place as a short bike with a long stem. I hate the term but the RAD measurement (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/lee-mccormacks-guide-to-perfect-bike-set-up.html) is the same.

Increasing reach and slackening head angle is about making a bike more stable at speed and particularly under braking. This stability comes at a cost of a bit of agility.

My experience is these new bikes are easier to ride but they are harder to ride well. By the difference is really small


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

LMN said:


> I think people might have it backwards as to how stem length and reach interact. To make a bike with a long reach fit we might choose to run a shorter stem, but we don't choose a bike with a long reach to run a shorter stem. It is a subtle but important difference.
> 
> Let us chat OTB, this is a topic that come up a lot. We go over the bars when we put out front wheel in a hole, (the videos of Sarrou, and Neff show this). So we need to not put our front wheel in holes. Generally the shorter a bike is the easier it is to loft that front wheel and keep it out of holes. This is why people love short stems, it makes the bike shorter and easier to loft that front end. If you make the reach longer and the stem short you are in the exact same place as a short bike with a long stem. I hate the term but the RAD measurement (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/lee-mccormacks-guide-to-perfect-bike-set-up.html) is the same.
> 
> ...


I think your second-to-last sentence says it all. The new bikes are more forgiving at speed, allow for easier recovery from certain types of mistakes, and are less likely to put you on the floor when your brain is turned off with 1/2 laps left to go and a ton of supra-threshold efforts behind you.

Conversely, they are less maneuverable at slow speeds, harder to lift the front end, a little more difficult to manual, depending on the chain stay at length, bottom bracket height and other factors, and they are more of a handful with tight successive turns.

As I've said before, I feel like the new bikes were built for terrain like you see in the western US, while old-school bikes or more at home in the north east or Midwest. Somewhere in between these two approaches is what I'm riding right now, and it works very well for the Southeast. I imagine it would work very well anywhere with very few adjustments needed.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tommyrod74 said:


> As I've said before, I feel like the new bikes were built for terrain like you see in the western US, while old-school bikes or more at home in the north east or Midwest. Somewhere in between these two approaches is what I'm riding right now, and it works very well for the Southeast. I imagine it would work very well anywhere with very few adjustments needed.


I agree. I'm in the Midwest and for races in IL, In, Oh, and Mi, niners and treks with their steep angles are really popular. I even had friends buy slacker bikes like the Sniper and then promptly trade out for more traditional geometry bikes a couple months later. Horses for the courses.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

LMN said:


> Let us chat OTB, this is a topic that come up a lot. We go over the bars when we put out front wheel in a hole, (the videos of Sarrou, and Neff show this). So we need to not put our front wheel in holes. Generally the shorter a bike is the easier it is to loft that front wheel and keep it out of holes. This is why people love short stems, it makes the bike shorter and easier to loft that front end. If you make the reach longer and the stem short you are in the exact same place as a short bike with a long stem. I hate the term but the RAD measurement (https://www.pinkbike.com/news/lee-mccormacks-guide-to-perfect-bike-set-up.html) is the same.
> 
> Increasing reach and slackening head angle is about making a bike more stable at speed and particularly under braking. This stability comes at a cost of a bit of agility.
> 
> My experience is these new bikes are easier to ride but they are harder to ride well. By the difference is really small


I disagree on this one. My experience has been that a longer reach puts the rider COG more in the middle of the bike and in between a longer wheelbase as opposed to on top of the bike where you're more likely to go OTB. Then I use a shorter stem to retain the proper reach and a reduced offset fork to speed up the steering.

It takes a bit more body movement to turn a modern geometry bike and the design can lead to a wandering front end on climbs, however. I think that is one reason some riders want negative rise stems, to help keep the front end down when climbing.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> I think your second-to-last sentence says it all. The new bikes are more forgiving at speed, allow for easier recovery from certain types of mistakes, and are less likely to put you on the floor when your brain is turned off with 1/2 laps left to go and a ton of supra-threshold efforts behind you.
> 
> Conversely, they are less maneuverable at slow speeds, harder to lift the front end, a little more difficult to manual, depending on the chain stay at length, bottom bracket height and other factors, and they are more of a handful with tight successive turns.
> 
> As I've said before, I feel like the new bikes were built for terrain like you see in the western US, while old-school bikes or more at home in the north east or Midwest. Somewhere in between these two approaches is what I'm riding right now, and it works very well for the Southeast. I imagine it would work very well anywhere with very few adjustments needed.


For more rolling or flat areas I still don't think I'd give up the longer reach and shorter stem of a modern bike. I find it gives me much more control at speed or when it does get steep. That said, I would look for something with a steeper HA and would probably end up with a 50-60mm stem.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

What about Nino -40 stem? That must show that something in the frame geometry isn't exactly right


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Raikzz said:


> What about Nino -40 stem? That must show that something in the frame geometry isn't exactly right


I would have opted for the small instead of the medium and we're the same height Nino and I. It's also a function of the high stack and low bb. That bike isn't growing on me so officially I consider it ugly


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

response3 said:


> I disagree on this one. My experience has been that a longer reach puts the rider COG more in the middle of the bike and in between a longer wheelbase as opposed to on top of the bike where you're more likely to go OTB. Then I use a shorter stem to retain the proper reach and a reduced offset fork to speed up the steering.
> 
> It takes a bit more body movement to turn a modern geometry bike and the design can lead to a wandering front end on climbs, however. I think that is one reason some riders want negative rise stems, to help keep the front end down when climbing.


Reduced fork offset does not speed up steering, just the opposit.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Reduced fork offset does not speed up steering, just the opposit.


Good point, and that's correct. But by bringing the wheel back towards you, it's easier to weight and control. I guess it's more about control than faster steering.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

reducing the offset increases the trail which adds weight to the steering.It increases feel at speed, that's about it.
Some say it adds stability but this is a fallacy as making the steering feel heavier means you have to apply more force to steer. when the wheel breaks lose the more force is still there and you're going to crash.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Brad said:


> I would have opted for the small instead of the medium and we're the same height Nino and I. It's also a function of the high stack and low bb. That bike isn't growing on me so officially I consider it ugly


Isn't the only difference is that the reach is 30mm longer on the medium?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Into


NordieBoy said:


> Isn't the only difference is that the reach is 30mm longer on the medium?


yes it is but that still allows for a less radical bend in the stem to get the bars lowered. The wheelbase is also shorter


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Raikzz said:


> What about Nino -40 stem? That must show that something in the frame geometry isn't exactly right


I don't care what the fit is, I would never ride a bike with a flaccid penis for a stem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I don’t know if it reflects a “problem”. 

More like, the bike is designed to be sold to the masses, and has HT/stack measurements to suit them. 

As such, Nino has to take relatively extreme measures to get the bike to fit and feel the way he wants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> I don't know if it reflects a "problem".
> 
> More like, the bike is designed to be sold to the masses, and has HT/stack measurements to suit them.
> 
> ...


Bummer!, so stems are actually a way to fit various riders and fits, who would have thought.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

TDLover said:


> Bummer!, so stems are actually a way to fit various riders and fits, who would have thought.


Yeah. And with a limited number of sizes (because molds cost money, or something), turns out that a 35mm stem won't work for everyone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I don't know if it reflects a "problem".
> 
> More like, the bike is designed to be sold to the masses, and has HT/stack measurements to suit them.
> 
> ...


I wonder if he's trying to reproduce his road bike position.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

FJSnoozer said:


> I don't care what the fit is, I would never ride a bike with a flaccid penis for a stem.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't want to go there lol


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

response3 said:


> I wonder if he's trying to reproduce his road bike position.


He's trying to keep the front wheel down when he's putting 600w through the pedals for 3min&#8230;.


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## response3 (Mar 4, 2007)

Brad said:


> He's trying to keep the front wheel down when he's putting 600w through the pedals for 3min&#8230;.


Maybe Scott should develop a wheelie bar system like drag racing cars have. What's one more thumb lever??


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

It is an aesthetics problem. 

I am sure they tried really hard to convince pro riders that they don't need that stem in...and still it is here. 

It is also probaby priced as a deore level hardtail .


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Raikzz said:


> What about Nino -40 stem? That must show that something in the frame geometry isn't exactly right


According to the Scott Website the Syncros Fraser IC SL WC bar for the new Scott Spark is available as a separate accessory. The text for it says Nino Schurter and Lars Forster use the -40 degree angle version, Andri Frischnecht uses the -30 degree angle version and Kate Courtney uses the -20 degree angle version. There are a variety of stem lengths but the bar width is set at 740mm with a 6 degree upsweep and 8 degree backsweep for all models.









SYNCROS_COMPONENTS_BARS_2022 | Syncros


Syncros is a high end components brand with a unique product range that reflects the company’s high standards for technology, while keeping top-to-bottom integration in mind.




www.syncros.com





It doesn't say how much it costs to have a bad case of Nino's droop on your own bike but based on the pricing of the previous version it's probably between £300 and £400 GBP for the integrated bar and stem.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

WR304 said:


> According to the Scott Website the Syncros Fraser IC SL WC bar for the new Scott Spark is available as a separate accessory. The text for it says Nino Schurter and Lars Forster use the -40 degree angle version, Andri Frischnecht uses the -30 degree angle version and Kate Courtney uses the -20 degree angle version. There are a variety of stem lengths but the bar width is set at 740mm with a 6 degree upsweep and 8 degree backsweep for all models.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know Syncros was originally a BC company but they aren't now. So it irritates me that the parts are named after BC towns.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> I know Syncros was originally a BC company but they aren't now. So it irritates me that the parts are named after BC towns.


With their new design aesthetic, they have a wealth of new names they could choose from.

For example, any of these:


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

MI-XC said:


> So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


You should post this in a few more threads&#8230;.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

MI-XC said:


> So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


Nino might have won by a larger margin on something else......maybe not. 
The bike doesn't make the rider, the rider makes the bike.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

MI-XC said:


> So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


Umm, the SuperCaliber won too...


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nino's slammed stem is an artifact of his old-school bike days, back to his 26" bike. It was the reason he originally gave for going with 27.5 wheels for a few years instead of 29, he felt he couldn't get the stack height low enough. His countryman Flueckiger (2nd place again) is the same size, just a few years younger, no negative stem.

Pretty cool that he won today. Doesn't look like the strongest possible field but.... I say artifact, because at some point Nino's bike went from retro-grouch to a platform for innovation. In a few years we won't see these crazy slammed stems any more.

Koretsky returning to relevance... on a full-suspension  The truth bombs keep dropping.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

MI-XC said:


> So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


Or maybe the bike really isn't that big of a factor, as long as the rider has adapted to riding it. Weird, who'd of thought?


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Nino's slammed stem is an artifact of his old-school bike days, back to his 26" bike. It was the reason he originally gave for going with 27.5 wheels for a few years instead of 29, he felt he couldn't get the stack height low enough. His countryman Flueckiger (2nd place again) is the same size, just a few years younger, no negative stem.
> 
> Pretty cool that he won today. Doesn't look like the strongest possible field but.... I say artifact, because at some point Nino's bike went from retro-grouch to a platform for innovation. In a few years we won't see these crazy slammed stems any more.
> 
> ...


Fluckiger has no negative stem?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

These guys are the pedaling equivalent of MotoGP racers and that seriously slammed stem position apparently is fastest. 
Doesn't apply to me. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Nino rode a good tactical race yesterday. He stayed behind Matthias all the time, psychologically pushing him. Also Nino has always gone well at Val di Sole, not sure when he got the new bar or if it was first a -20 before this new one but he looked more comfortable on the bike despite the ugly high stack height


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

It really looked like Nino had to really wrangle that bike down. Especially visible on the last lap.

My guess is that it’s less of a disadvantage for the men to have a bike like that, just given the difference in upper body strength. It has a Euro and World title now on the men’s side, but not much on the women’s side (correct me if I’m wrong).

The trek women now have an olympic and world title on the supercaliber.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

MI-XC said:


> So I guess the Scott Spark 2022 is awesome now because Nino won Worlds (eliminating all the doubters) and the Supercaliber is back to being junk taking 4th. All is right in the world now.


What race were you watching?


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## edu2 (Jan 14, 2007)

Probably best equipment choise for making it at big races is a red and white shirt.

Bikes seem irrelevant.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Nino's slammed stem is an artifact of his old-school bike days, back to his 26" bike. It was the reason he originally gave for going with 27.5 wheels for a few years instead of 29, he felt he couldn't get the stack height low enough. His countryman Flueckiger (2nd place again) is the same size, just a few years younger, no negative stem.
> 
> Pretty cool that he won today. Doesn't look like the strongest possible field but.... I say artifact, because at some point Nino's bike went from retro-grouch to a platform for innovation. In a few years we won't see these crazy slammed stems any more.
> 
> ...


Koretsky's been on FS for pretty much every race this yr.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Flueckiger (2nd place again) is the same size, just a few years younger, no negative stem.
> 
> Koretsky returning to relevance... on a full-suspension  The truth bombs keep dropping.
> View attachment 1945771


Fleukinger uses -22 degree stem and Koretsky only ran a HT at Albstadt this year, I'm curious do you fact check anything you post?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

response3 said:


> I wonder if he's trying to reproduce his road bike position.


These super low stems are all about climbing out of the saddle. To be able to access the power in your upperbody on a steep climb you need some distance between shoulders and bars.

Most of us don't really climb out of the saddle that much, a low stem really isn't needed.

What is not talked about at all in this thread is how suspension is being set. Suspension settings make a way bigger difference that the thumb widths of reach.

My observations are the more aggressive a set up is the stiffer and faster the fork is set.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Meanwhile the DH GOAT  wins again at Val De Sole, prior discussions with his mechanic about a 2mm drop in front end and one click higher of compression. Sure, just ride&#8230;


Drop the forks 2mm through the clamps = 2mm higher front end.
Jordy from Fox, not his mech


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

A few links for closer pictures of the winning bikes:









Las 6 bicis campeonas del Mundo de XCO 2021: 3 Scott, 2 Trek y 1 Lapierre


Las 6 bicis campeonas del mundo de XCO 2021 y sus detalles más destacados. Scott Spark RC, Trek Supercaliber y Lapierre XR




esmtb.com













Estas fueron las 5 MTB más rápidas del Campeonato del Mundo XCO 2021


El circuito de Val di Sole está tomando el relevo a Nove Mesto, o al menos comparten título, como el trazado favorito de gran parte de la parrilla de...




www.brujulabike.com


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## MI-XC (Mar 14, 2018)

carlostruco said:


> A few links for closer pictures of the winning bikes:


Thanks for posting that, I hadn't heard of the Joystick. Really interested in that Joystick Dropper Remote as a solution to having a dropper with the Twinloc. If I'm able to get my hands on a 2022 Spark RC I just may go with the Joystick.


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## GSPChilliwack (Jul 30, 2013)

LMN said:


> I know Syncros was originally a BC company but they aren't now. So it irritates me that the parts are named after BC towns.


I had no idea that it was the same company. I just thought the BC version had faded away during my 20+ years of not riding.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Here is the Yep components Uptimizer seatpost. I like that their minimum length is 125mm, 480/503g.


https://yepcomponents.com/uptimizer-3-0-seatpost/?v=7516fd43adaa



and the joystick remote.


https://yepcomponents.com/joystick-dropper-remote/?v=7516fd43adaa



I noticed that Nino is stated to prefer traditional spokes and is using the Silverton 1.0 30mm wheels instead of the SL 30s with carbon spokes. Brad Copeland mentioned that the SLs are pretty stiff, not sure if that's the reason.

Finally rid of that ugly silver chainring, wonder what the Black Box power meter is like, and what SRAM plan to do with the Quarq brand?








Prototype Blackbox SRAM XX1 AXS direct mount power meter chainring coming soon?


SRAM's Blackbox prototype XX1 AXS power meter chainrings are popping up on more & more XC race bikes. Will we be able to buy them in 2021?




bikerumor.com
















carlostruco said:


> A few links for closer pictures of the winning bikes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Raikzz said:


> What about Nino -40 stem? That must show that something in the frame geometry isn't exactly right


At the 2021 Val di Sole World Championships Nino Schurter looks to have ditched the -40 degree stem and gone back to a higher handlebar position again:



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-val-di-sole-xc-world-championships-2021.html



His -40 degree stem, as used earlier in the year, lines the bars up with the middle of the Scott logo on the head tube whilst his bars are well above that in this finish line picture from last Saturday.

He had a power meter fitted for the actual race too. At some races he doesn't use a power meter in the race but for this race he did. Bike check pictures vs actual race pictures for Nino Schurter can vary the bike spec quite a bit. It's a black anodised version of the new Quarq with integrated chainring (shown better in chomxxo's picture in the post just before this one) so it's likely almost ready to be released now.


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)

Any idea what kind of dropper nino was riding at worlds?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

cycloholic said:


> Any idea what kind of dropper nino was riding at worlds?


Yep components Uptimizer seatpost.

https://yepcomponents.com/uptimizer-3-0-seatpost/?v=7516fd43adaa

and the joystick remote.

https://yepcomponents.com/joystick-dropper-remote/?v=7516fd43adaa


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> These super low stems are all about climbing out of the saddle. To be able to access the power in your upperbody on a steep climb you need some distance between shoulders and bars.
> 
> Most of us don't really climb out of the saddle that much, a low stem really isn't needed.
> 
> ...


Bingo!!


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

WR304 said:


> At the 2021 Val di Sole World Championships Nino Schurter looks to have ditched the -40 degree stem and gone back to a higher handlebar position again:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It depends which angle you look from, but i'm pretty sure he ran -40

from this angle it doesn't line up to the middle of scott logo


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Fluckiger has no negative stem?
> View attachment 1945788


We've been through this many times. His stem is level with the bars and has a dropper that puts him well below it, too. In addition his effective reach is close to the steerer tube, as is Nino's, if lower, both with significant backsweep.

Fluekiger rode his Olympic bike at Val di Sole.









[Bike Check] Mathias Fluckiger's Olympics Race Bike


On Tuesday Mathias Fluckiger left for Tokyo for the Olympic Games. The no. 1 XC racer in the UCI ranking brought with him a special edition of his Thömus, dubbed Ganbaru, which in Japanese means “give your best”. A tribute to the nation that organizes the Olympics this year, with dedicated...




www.mtb-mag.com





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

WR304 said:


> At the 2021 Val di Sole World Championships Nino Schurter looks to have ditched the -40 degree stem and gone back to a higher handlebar position again:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is getting a little extra drop from his handlebar, too, which may actually have his hands about the same spot as they were with the -40 stem.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> We've been through this many times. His stem is level with the bars and has a dropper that puts him well below it, too. In addition his effective reach is close to the steerer tube, as is Nino's, if lower, both with significant backsweep.
> 
> Fluekiger rode his Olympic bike at Val di Sole.
> 
> ...


This says otherwise&#8230;


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## WR304 (Jul 9, 2004)

Raikzz said:


> It depends which angle you look from, but i'm pretty sure he ran -40
> 
> from this angle it doesn't line up to the middle of scott logo


The bottom of the brake levers is very low and near the fork crown so it's very likely you're right and it is the -40 degree stem still behind the race number plate.

It does raise a good point - what initially looked completely outlandish and different a few months ago (new Scott Spark RC frame with hidden rear shock and that -40 degree stem) is already looking familiar enough that it's not even standing out to the same extent to me anymore.


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## drjos (Jan 25, 2004)

carlostruco said:


> Can somebody please identify Mat Fluck's tires? The look like Thunder Burt's...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.pinkbike.com/news/photo-epic-runaway-train-leogang-xc-world-cup-2021.html


That appears to be a racing Ralph. Interesting to see the rear specific Ralph on the front.





Racing Ralph HS 490 Legendary XC MTB Tire | Schwalbe Tires NA


The Racing Ralph XC race tire completely redesigned. Very fast and versatile XC racing MTB tire.




www.schwalbetires.com


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Schurter on Schwalbe now?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The thing I find interesting about Nino's setup is not his slammed stem. That is an artifact of him being near to retirement. Few others now have the same setup. What's interesting is that as his frame reach has increased, his stem length hasn't decreased, but his backsweep has compensated to make for the same effective reach. Yes he's still riding a medium. Here's shots of his Rio bike vs his current setup. Clearly the bars are closer to the steerer tube now which is all that matters.

He also recently switched to 700mm wide bars, (which is still rather narrow but not retro-grouch extreme) after holding out for many years. This is a healthier way of lowering the front end position, while increasing control, rather than wacky stems.

What this means is that he's still taking advantage of the new bike's geometry. A couple years back, he finally relented to use a dropper post also. Even for the most old-school World Cup racers now, long reach, low descending position, and short effective stem length is where it's at.


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

MattMay said:


> Schurter on Schwalbe now?


No, they run Maxxis Aspen 2.4" almost exclusively now.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> The thing I find interesting about Nino's setup is not his slammed stem. That is an artifact of him being near to retirement.


Heh, what a way to compliment a world champion.

He just became a world champion at age of retirement. Whatever he rode, works for him, not against him.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Goran_injo said:


> Heh, what a way to compliment a world champion.
> 
> He just became a world champion at age of retirement. Whatever he rode, works for him, not against him.


You have to remember Chomxxo has his own parallel universe oblivious to facts&#8230;


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Goran_injo said:


> Heh, what a way to compliment a world champion.
> 
> He just became a world champion at age of retirement. Whatever he rode, works for him, not against him.


I don't think that's as obviously true as it might seem at first blush. An extreme example: Nino would kick my ass around the course on almost any bike. It doesn't mean the bike he rode was working well for him. This can be true, to a lesser extent, among his peers on a given race. Watching him and Matthias, Nino clearly had to spend more energy muscling his bike around the climbs. He also just happened to be on a good enough day that perhaps he could afford the -0.1% (made up hypothetical number) penalty and still be fast enough for the win.

The XC bikes of the day have dual pressures of being "fast enough" to win races while being "fun enough" to be scooped up by the masses. Striking that equilibrium means there are sacrifices on both ends. I'm certain Scott could make a faster bike for KC specifically, but it might only work for her, and it might not be economical to market.


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## edu2 (Jan 14, 2007)

Nice to notice that with age Nino learned to put the rear wheel/tire in correct position.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

Bottom line, his old artifact just helped him become a world champion and most of his peers are younger. 

So I would not call his stem an artifact. It is his tool of choice to get him the win.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Goran_injo said:


> Bottom line, his old artifact just helped him become a world champion and most of his peers are younger.
> 
> So I would not call his stem an artifact. It is his tool of choice to get him the win.


How are you so sure he wasn't just making the best of a sub-optimal setup? If I was forced to race an enduro bike, I'd probably swap the tires for Aspens. It doesn't mean that I was keen on the bike I rode.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

bikeranzin said:


> How are you so sure he wasn't just making the best of a sub-optimal setup? If I was forced to race an enduro bike, I'd probably swap the tires for Aspens. It doesn't mean that I was keen on the bike I rode.


I suspect he was indirectly responding to a certain individual who claims that pros always get it wrong. But I agree with you. It's possible he is making the best out of a situation where the bike was designed partly for the masses and partly to race, like you pointed out. Good insight.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

I am not saying he is keen on the bike. Probably the opposite. He probably wouldn't be having a minus infinte, Nino custom molded stem if he was keen on it.

I am saying his artifact modifications got him the win. So whatever relicts of the past, dinosaur bike setups he is using, seem to be working just fine. Not just fine, but winning in career autumn fine.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

If Nino isn't endoing on every rock garden and is still among the fastest descenders without crashing, I don't see the downside to him running a negative slammed stem. He gains speed back on flat corners and higher speed sections of the trail. An idiot XC setup would be a riser stem, riser bars, and a bunch of spacers under the stem because you are worried about going over the bars attacking gnarly downhill features like an amateur who watches too many gnar bro YouTube clips.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Goran_injo said:


> I am not saying he is keen on the bike. Probably the opposite. He probably wouldn't be having a minus infinte, Nino custom molded stem if he was keen on it.
> 
> I am saying his artifact modifications got him the win. So whatever relicts of the past, dinosaur bike setups he is using, seem to be working just fine. Not just fine, but winning in career autumn fine.


I can't argue with results. But when you look at past and present setups, clearly there's some things he's consented to change (that he refused before) and some things that are exactly the same, to a degree (literally), just like Greg Minaar who's notorious as a Mister Millimeter.

I'd expect that kind of precision in bike setup actually. I don't follow the "just ride" camp, that's a cop out for anyone who holds themselves to high standards as a professional.

However looking at the last 2 years, either Nino is too old or his new bike is slower, there are two camps arguing those sides. I'd just like to point out that the "trail bike" setup seems to be an advantage rather than a disadvantage to younger World Cup racers.

Maybe people don't realize how deep-seated some of these retro-grouch practices are. The visceral reactions in spite of the facts still amaze me. Here's a history lesson in old school bikes from the man himself, the first XC World Cup winner, Ned Overend. You won't find him holding on to any of it.






This one with downhill pioneer Greg Herbold, the first DH World Cup winner is also worth watching. I didn't expect him to say "aero is everything."






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Don't worry be happy. Most amateurs run positive rise stems, spacers under their stem and riser bars in many cases. And it becomes even more pronounced as you go from Cat 1 to Cat 3. Those Cat 3 guys are really onto something. Nino's retro grouchness is not an epidemic.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Being very realistic, you can switch bikes between most WC racers and most probably results would be the same. People who do this for a living work hard to find whats best for them. Take Tom Pidcock for example. Given that his road trade team bike supplier doesn't have a WC level MTB, they set out to find what works the best for him (albeit some caveats). He still uses the same shoes but not the same bike as last year when he raced for another team who saw him won quite a few races. Most of the time, at this level, bikes don't win races. Equipment choices don't win races. Riders who have the talent and bust their asses to be better will win races.


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

bikeranzin said:


> Watching him and Matthias, Nino clearly had to spend more energy muscling his bike around the climbs.


Considering no one bobs around and looks he's putting out for effort that MattyF... You sure you can tell them apart?


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

kevbikemad said:


> Considering no one bobs around and looks he's putting out for effort that MattyF... You sure you can tell them apart?


Yes. Watch that wheel on the tight climbing corners. The damn wheel doesn't want to stay down, and he's having to use a lot of english to fix the wide radius turn. The upper body differences on pedal strokes between the two is irrelevant for this.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> Don't worry be happy. Most amateurs run positive rise stems, spacers under their stem and riser bars in many cases. And it becomes even more pronounced as you go from Cat 1 to Cat 3. Those Cat 3 guys are really onto something. Nino's retro grouchness is not an epidemic.


Lack of flexibility is also more pronounced as you go from Cat 1 to Cat 3.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Lack of flexibility is also more pronounced as you go from Cat 1 to Cat 3.


I think he was being facetious.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> I can't argue with results. But when you look at past and present setups, clearly there's some things he's consented to change (that he refused before) and some things that are exactly the same, to a degree (literally), just like Greg Minaar who's notorious as a Mister Millimeter.
> 
> I'd expect that kind of precision in bike setup actually. I don't follow the "just ride" camp, that's a cop out for anyone who holds themselves to high standards as a professional.
> 
> ...


Ned comparing an alloy 26" hardtail to a modern FS 29er is the same as the previous gen Spark to the current one? I like your adding the Herbold video, nice touch. He raced DH with bar ends, I'm sure you can relate.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Pidcock bike with Suntour - SR Suntour shows prototype electronic suspension on Tom Pidcock's Gold Medal MTB


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> Pidcock bike with Suntour - SR Suntour shows prototype electronic suspension on Tom Pidcock's Gold Medal MTB


Here's a closer look:


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

xcandrew said:


> Here's a closer look:


That BMC is a nice looking bike. I really like the way the dropper functions.

And look at the length of that stem! Is 100 the new 50? Joking aside that is a really long stem for that bike.


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

LMN said:


> That BMC is a nice looking bike. I really like the way the dropper functions.
> 
> And look at the length of that stem! Is 100 the new 50? Joking aside that is a really long stem for that bike.


Yes it is. I'm 6'1 with long arms and legs but a short torso and run a 80mm -17 stem. Sometimes I think I should go shorter. The Fourstroke, even with that super short rear end, has a long reach and wheelbase.


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## madfella (May 23, 2016)

The frame has a pretty slack 67.5 HTA. I winner if that's got anything to do with the longish stem.

Incidentally, the dominant XC geometry this year in the world cups has been bikes with steep head angles - 69 degrees plus... Canyon Lux, Supercalibre, Thomus Literider and the Massi


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> However looking at the last 2 years, either Nino is too old or his new bike is slower, there are two camps arguing those sides. I'd just like to point out that the "trail bike" setup seems to be an advantage rather than a disadvantage to younger World Cup racers.
> 
> Maybe people don't realize how deep-seated some of these retro-grouch practices are. The visceral reactions in spite of the facts still amaze me. Here's a history lesson in old school bikes from the man himself, the first XC World Cup winner, Ned Overend. You won't find him holding on to any of it.


What's it like being smartest person in this thread?

It's plausible that Nino is a little older (wait, that's actually a fact) and the bike is a little slower (physics).

Also, Ned used to put Coca Cola in his hydration pack. Needless to say he has come a long way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carlostruco (May 22, 2009)

Sina Frei new whip...









Bicis de los pro: la brutal S-Works Epic personalizada "campeona del mundo" de Sina Frei


Los campeones del mundo de Short Track, ambos bikers de Specialized, tienen una nueva S-Works Epic para lucir. Una de las más espectaculares que hemos visto.




esmtb.com


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

madfella said:


> The frame has a pretty slack 67.5 HTA. I winner if that's got anything to do with the longish stem.


It seems those who are road and mtb racing like a bit longer stem. I suspect it just comes down to trying to make the two bikes have a similar pedalling position. This has been my experience doing bike fits. Those who have raced high level road seem to like longer stems.

I know personally if I have been spending a lot of time on my road bike I want to throw a longer stem on a mtb when I ride it. Where as if I have been spending a lot of time on my gravel bike the stem on the mtb feels right.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> It seems those who are road and mtb racing like a bit longer stem. I suspect it just comes down to trying to make the two bikes have a similar pedalling position. This has been my experience doing bike fits. Those who have raced high level road seem to like longer stems.
> 
> I know personally if I have been spending a lot of time on my road bike I want to throw a longer stem on a mtb when I ride it. Where as if I have been spending a lot of time on my gravel bike the stem on the mtb feels right.


It is all about pedalling efficiency for me. I try to get my body into similar geometry on the road and Mtb bikes. At the end of the day your muscles are trained to produce power within a certain geometry on the bike. I find it hard to produce power while sitting upright on the MTB, I have to be bent over the stem.
My saddle to bar drop is also similar or my shoulders hurt on longer rides because my back is used to a more tucked and bent position. I much prefer to be stretched on the bike rather than bunched up like I would be on my old Enduro bike (that one was great for descending though)


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

Brad said:


> It is all about pedalling efficiency for me. I try to get my body into similar geometry on the road and Mtb bikes. At the end of the day your muscles are trained to produce power within a certain geometry on the bike. I find it hard to produce power while sitting upright on the MTB, I have to be bent over the stem.
> My saddle to bar drop is also similar or my shoulders hurt on longer rides because my back is used to a more tucked and bent position. I much prefer to be stretched on the bike rather than bunched up like I would be on my old Enduro bike (that one was great for descending though)


How much of the torso angle is due to bending the elbows though? When many of the pros sit up with straight arms, they are actually pretty upright. If you look at screen shots of races, many look upright enough that they are could be riding a city bike or beach cruiser.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

sort of like when sitting up and cruisin around on the tops of a road bikes drop bar when recovering in Zone 2?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

xcandrew said:


> How much of the torso angle is due to bending the elbows though? When many of the pros sit up with straight arms, they are actually pretty upright. If you look at screen shots of races, many look upright enough that they are could be riding a city bike or beach cruiser.
> 
> View attachment 1946764
> 
> ...


The riders you're showing in particular are short. You'll see WC racers of average height or shorter usually have their bars level with the saddle. It's a total fabrication that most pros use a slammed setup, most don't these days. Ironically I'm going back to a 4" drop this year but that's proportionate.

What's also more interesting is to see that the bar ends are closer to the head tube than ever before, reagardless of stem length. As if a little rowing on a switchback invalidates a properly-fitted bike that you can ride fast.

I also challenge the notion that a long reach bike lifts the wheel on steep climbs-not one with a steeper STA. It's bikes with slack seat tube angles and too-short reach that needed long stems to keep their bikes from manualing.

I'd also challenge that 69* head angles dominate. The Specialized Epic and BMC Fourstroke are all over the podium. For every bike with an older HTA you'll see dropper posts or you'll see crashes.

Most posters on this thread don't jive with reality, and just post something that makes them feel "pro"

Keep pointing out the facts, well done.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Please stop saying that. It’s easily disproved with photo evidence.

The only people who gave their bars level with or above the saddle are people like Sina Frei, who is 4’11”. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> The riders you're showing in particular are short. You'll see WC racers of average height or shorter usually have their bars level with the saddle. It's a total fabrication that most pros use a slammed setup, most don't these days. Ironically I'm going back to a 4" drop this year but that's proportionate.
> 
> What's also more interesting is to see that the bar ends are closer to the head tube than ever before, reagardless of stem length. As if a little rowing on a switchback invalidates a properly-fitted bike that you can ride fast.
> 
> ...


I recently bought a bike with a 75 degree seat angle and a zero degree setback seatpost. I had to buy a 25mm offset seatpost to get my position back to where it's preferred for me. A steep seat angle doesn't automatically make someone sit further forward on a bike. Your "bar ends closer to head tube" observation-bars have gotten alot wider and consequently more sweep has been added for comfort. A wider bar also increases reach. Most of everything you post is flawed logic or a gross misinterpretation of what is actually happening on a bike.


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

Brad said:


> At the end of the day your muscles are trained to produce power within a certain geometry on the bike. I find it hard to produce power while sitting upright on the MTB, I have to be bent over the stem.


I'm sure it's different for different people, but I've always found that when I'm riding no handed, torso straight up, I have more leg strength. That's obviously a bad position to race in (except for the finish line salute while crossing the line first), but having a more open angle between torso and legs seems good for power. Doing a search just now to see what people say about it, it seems like triathletes call it it "hip angle". More open is generally better for power (maybe), more closed obviously better for aero.



Brad said:


> My saddle to bar drop is also similar or my shoulders hurt on longer rides because my back is used to a more tucked and bent position. I much prefer to be stretched on the bike rather than bunched up


That's probably backwards from the average cyclist, who find low, long to be back breaking. But I'm sure it makes sense for you. I was too low/long on my road bike because I fit according to the trends (then... late '80s, '90s) rather than my body (not the longest arms), and should have sat up more. My mountain bike (still riding it, different fit) in the '90s was too low by default. Couldn't raise the quill stem to more than 8cm drop before reaching the max line.



chomxxo said:


> The riders you're showing in particular are short. You'll see WC racers of average height or shorter usually have their bars level with the saddle. It's a total fabrication that most pros use a slammed setup, most don't these days. Ironically I'm going back to a 4" drop this year but that's proportionate.


Didn't mean to wade into the on-going debate here. Or, at last I'm not taking sides, just thinking about the topic. I think people are perfectly capable of finding what's comfortable and works for themselves if they have tried out a variety of positions, and, watching race videos, those positions definitely end up varying.

Torso angle when seated with the arms straight seems like a more relevant measure than saddle to bar drop for comparing fit preferences. Just grab a side-on screen shot from a video (still photos are rarely side-on shots) and compare. Women seem to like a more upright position. Stem length (outside the ridiculous 13cm+ in the '90s), frame reach, bar drop are just means to get the individual's preferred position. I'm 178cm and have an ape index of about -1 cm, and like the bars about level with the saddle, maybe a tiny bit lower with sag (hardtail). Someone the same height with an ape index of +10cm, not that unusual, might have the bars 5-6cm lower and have the same body position.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Please stop saying that. It's easily disproved with photo evidence.
> 
> The only people who gave their bars level with or above the saddle are people like Sina Frei, who is 4'11".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're a good guy but the exact opposite was proven with photo evidence of every bike at the Olympics. Both the gold medalist and the silver medalist of the men's race. I don't know what to tell you. Again this comes from a guy who'll never have his bars level unless we start racing 36ers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> You're a good guy but the exact opposite was proven with photo evidence of every bike at the Olympics. Both the gold medalist and the silver medalist of the men's race. I don't know what to tell you. Again this comes from a guy who'll never have his bars level unless we start racing 36ers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are you even talking about? Didn't I post about 5 photos demonstratively proving that your wrong? Just on this page, you can see that you're wrong. But let me help you&#8230;AGAIN:









The saddle is CLEARLY above the bars.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

xcandrew said:


> I'm sure it's different for different people, but I've always found that when I'm riding no handed, torso straight up, I have more leg strength. That's obviously a bad position to race in (except for the finish line salute while crossing the line first), but having a more open angle between torso and legs seems good for power. Doing a search just now to see what people say about it, it seems like triathletes call it it "hip angle". More open is generally better for power (maybe), more closed obviously better for aero.
> 
> That's probably backwards from the average cyclist, who find low, long to be back breaking. But I'm sure it makes sense for you. I was too low/long on my road bike because I fit according to the trends (then... late '80s, '90s) rather than my body (not the longest arms), and should have sat up more. My mountain bike (still riding it, different fit) in the '90s was too low by default. Couldn't raise the quill stem to more than 8cm drop before reaching the max line.
> 
> ...


Taking sides would indicate that this is a matter of opinion, and it takes two to make an argument. I only persist because new examples of truth in motion keep popping up 

Other than what's comfortable to your arms and back, there's no truth to front end position having anything to do with pedaling efficiency, other than aero.

If you want to say that a Nino-style bike is set up for aerodynamics, or climbing, I doubt it. Control over the front wheel is probably why some choose it. Larger wheels and wider bars allow you to raise the bar height higher with the same level of control, and more safety (safe means going faster). Some WC racers have noted this and adjusted, which gives them a more stable stance, some haven't.

It's good that you noted that women have a more upright stance due to less upper body strength. Here's where Lee McCormack's RAD measurement really shines.



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/lee-mccormacks-guide-to-perfect-bike-set-up.html



When you have limited strength, you have to optimize your RAD measurement. Men will often go RAD+ and feel more aggressive, but they lose the ability to control the bike in tough situations. RAD0 or even RAD- gives the racer a little slack to move around the bike and pull it up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

smartyiak said:


> What are you even talking about? Didn't I post about 5 photos demonstratively proving that your wrong? Just on this page, you can see that you're wrong. But let me help you&#8230;AGAIN:
> View attachment 1946838
> 
> 
> The saddle is CLEARLY above the bars.


Lol what's wrong with your eyes? Pidcock is level with the bars.

Here let me show you what saddle to bars drop looks like.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Please stop saying that. It's easily disproved with photo evidence.
> 
> The only people who gave their bars level with or above the saddle are people like Sina Frei, who is 4'11".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not even her&#8230;


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

chomxxo said:


> Lol what's wrong with your eyes? Pidcock is level with the bars.
> 
> Here let me show you what saddle to bars drop looks like.
> 
> ...


This right here shows why you post all the dumb stuff you.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

xcandrew said:


> I'm sure it's different for different people, but I've always found that when I'm riding no handed, torso straight up, I have more leg strength. That's obviously a bad position to race in (except for the finish line salute while crossing the line first), but having a more open angle between torso and legs seems good for power. Doing a search just now to see what people say about it, it seems like triathletes call it it "hip angle". More open is generally better for power (maybe), more closed obviously better for aero.


when I sit upright and pedal hands off the bars I lose about 20W. Arms tucked onto a set off TT bars and i'll gain around 10W, hence I enjoy TT's  On the MTB the bar height is a bit of a compromise. I need to have control of the bike but also be able to pull on the bar effectively on steep gradients. I ended up with a position of the bar about 1cm higher than on my road bike. If I go lower then the steering becomes to sensitive. I use about 90mm drop of a 125mm travel dropper. 
With the bar higher it makes out of the saddle climbing harder and works my lower back and glutes harder.



> That's probably backwards from the average cyclist, who find low, long to be back breaking. But I'm sure it makes sense for you. I was too low/long on my road bike because I fit according to the trends (then... late '80s, '90s) rather than my body (not the longest arms), and should have sat up more. My mountain bike (still riding it, different fit) in the '90s was too low by default. Couldn't raise the quill stem to more than 8cm drop before reaching the max line.


my flexibility is quite high. I easily put my knuckles on the ground went bent forward at the hips and legs straight commonly know as touch your toes. I don't have abnormally long arms either at 60cm for my 172cm height. Its just about flexibility, how the muscles are trained to produce power and the geometry in which this occurs. Someone who exclusively mountain bikes and rides a trail bike my not be able to produce power in a more aero position. Different strokes for different folks as you correctly and respectfully point out.



> Didn't mean to wade into the on-going debate here. Or, at last I'm not taking sides, just thinking about the topic. I think people are perfectly capable of finding what's comfortable and works for themselves if they have tried out a variety of positions, and, watching race videos, those positions definitely end up varying.
> 
> *Torso angle when seated with the arms straight seems like a more relevant measure than saddle to bar drop for comparing fit preferences.* Just grab a side-on screen shot from a video (still photos are rarely side-on shots) and compare. Women seem to like a more upright position. Stem length (outside the ridiculous 13cm+ in the '90s), frame reach, bar drop are just means to get the individual's preferred position. I'm 178cm and have an ape index of about -1 cm, and like the bars about level with the saddle, maybe a tiny bit lower with sag (hardtail). Someone the same height with an ape index of +10cm, not that unusual, might have the bars 5-6cm lower and have the same body position.


 nailed it. Also hipflexor angles should be considered since some people have longer legs than torso or longer torso than leg


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

xcandrew said:


> I'm sure it's different for different people, but I've always found that when I'm riding no handed, torso straight up, I have more leg strength. That's obviously a bad position to race in (except for the finish line salute while crossing the line first), but having a more open angle between torso and legs seems good for power. Doing a search just now to see what people say about it, it seems like triathletes call it it "hip angle". More open is generally better for power (maybe), more closed obviously better for aero.
> 
> That's probably backwards from the average cyclist, who find low, long to be back breaking. But I'm sure it makes sense for you. I was too low/long on my road bike because I fit according to the trends (then... late '80s, '90s) rather than my body (not the longest arms), and should have sat up more. My mountain bike (still riding it, different fit) in the '90s was too low by default. Couldn't raise the quill stem to more than 8cm drop before reaching the max line.


Obviously the right position is different for everyone. This is something we see in the Pro-ranks, some like a really low position others sit quite up-right.

When I do fits the starting position is to get to rider as close to point where their hands start to bear significant weight. I find this allows them to climb in a relaxed position at high watts. From there adjustments are made to rider preference.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Having > in one doesn’t = non-existent in another. Bot: ok.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Very, very close...









smartyiak said:


> The saddle is CLEARLY above the bars.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Very, very close...
> View attachment 1946875


Is that a true side profile? No. The camera man taking the pic is clearly kneeling down and looking up.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

peabody said:


> Is that a true side profile? No. The camera man taking the pic is clearly kneeling down and looking up.
> View attachment 1946877


And you could say with that pic that the front might have more sag...
Still very, very close.

My bikes are at 40, 45 and 80mm drop.
I optimise for the climb as I can gain more on the climb than I lose on the descent.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> You're a good guy but the exact opposite was proven with photo evidence of every bike at the Olympics. Both the gold medalist and the silver medalist of the men's race. I don't know what to tell you. Again this comes from a guy who'll never have his bars level unless we start racing 36ers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For the second time in this thread, I'll post a picture of my own bike to demonstrate the optical effect that seems to be confusing you. This bike has a 50mm+/2"+ drop. Note the difference from the first to the last picture, and I'm not referring to the fork swap. It's the angle that the image was taken at.



























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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Duke is spot on. You absolutely cannot judge drop from a picture. ANY picture. Measurement only if you want to argue fact. Actual fact, not what people claim as fact.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> For the second time in this thread, I'll post a picture of my own bike to demonstrate the optical effect that seems to be confusing you. This bike has a 50mm+/2"+ drop. Note the difference from the first to the last picture, and I'm not referring to the fork swap. It's the angle that the image was taken at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon clearly you are changing the stack picture to picture, CHOM sees thru the BS.


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## joecx (Aug 17, 2013)

NordieBoy said:


> Very, very close...
> View attachment 1946875


Look at the relative height of the tires, the picture isn't level


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

joecx said:


> Look at the relative height of the tires, the picture isn't level


I know


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I think it is pretty cool the variety of bikes that are winning.

Take a look at the Supercaliber and Spark. Both bikes won world championships and both are completely different takes on what a world cup XC bike is. Or an Oiz versus an Epic, polar opposite suspension characteristics, yet both are world cup winning bikes.

It shouldn't be surprising. A MTB course has a huge variety of terrain bikes are going excel somewhere and struggle someplace else.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

LMN said:


> I think it is pretty cool the variety of bikes that are winning.
> 
> Take a look at the Supercaliber and Spark. Both bikes won world championships and both are completely different takes on what a world cup XC bike is. Or an Oiz versus an Epic, polar opposite suspension characteristics, yet both are world cup winning bikes.
> 
> It shouldn't be surprising. A MTB course has a huge variety of terrain bikes are going excel somewhere and struggle someplace else.


Further, certain bikes will flatter the strengths of certain riders and/or help equalize weaknesses. Of course at that level these are all relative and all the riders are highly competent in all areas, but I could see an amazing technical rider choosing a shorter-travel bike to save weight and gain efficiency on the climbs, for example.

I just realized that I am assuming the riders have a choice&#8230; maybe on a team like Trek where the Supercaliber or the Top Fuel could be picked, depending on preference.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

No way Trek allows rider to ride Top Fuel, how that would make their "XCO" weapon look ?

Same with Specialized not allowing Epic EVO


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> No way Trek allows rider to ride Top Fuel, how that would make their "XCO" weapon look ?
> 
> Same with Specialized not allowing Epic EVO


There are zero restrictions about racing and EVO


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

LMN said:


> There are zero restrictions about racing and EVO


Well, that's interesting, is somebody outside of factory team riding it?


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## borisb (Nov 15, 2017)

LMN said:


> I think it is pretty cool the variety of bikes that are winning.
> 
> Or an Oiz versus an Epic, polar opposite suspension characteristics, yet both are world cup winning bikes.


Would you care to explain how Oiz and Epic suspensions are different? Because Epic has Brain? Or something else?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Some people look at the horizon and see that the Earth is flat. Here, I rotated the image in Photoshop so that it's level. Guess what? Picock's bars may be slightly above the saddle! Silliness abounds.

Even if Tom's bars are 1cm below the saddle, which they clearly aren't, should we trouble with this? What are you trying so hard to prove? There are plenty of WC racers with a bigger ape index than him, but as a rule World Cup racers 5'8" and smaller now go level, Nino being the exception due to his longer career.

What I'm hearing is that this *really* bothers the long-stem, slammed crew. As a matter of fact, for average or shorter riders, the best in the world no longer do that (Again, Nino the lone exception).










Here's an example of a taller rider with a big saddle to bar drop, a guy with a setup not much different than mine currently. Factory-standard 760mm bars and 70mm stem, 2.35" tires. Although he takes photos without it, Sarrou rides a standard (heavy) AXS post full-time. This is fine.











__
http://instagr.am/p/CRqeqT0hkZz/


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

tommyrod74 said:


> Further, certain bikes will flatter the strengths of certain riders and/or help equalize weaknesses. Of course at that level these are all relative and all the riders are highly competent in all areas, but I could see an amazing technical rider choosing a shorter-travel bike to save weight and gain efficiency on the climbs, for example.
> 
> I just realized that I am assuming the riders have a choice&#8230; maybe on a team like Trek where the Supercaliber or the Top Fuel could be picked, depending on preference.


You mean like Nino choosing a 27.5 hardtail with his superior skills instead of a big, slow 29er full-suspension? Oh wait...



Raikzz said:


> No way Trek allows rider to ride Top Fuel, how that would make their "XCO" weapon look ?
> 
> Same with Specialized not allowing Epic EVO


I'm all ears... The Top Fuel is a much better bike. Without the Brain or a lockout, the Epic EVO would be at a disadvantage, but give it a lockout and it's got a chance. I wouldn't bet against Specialized making a race version of the EVO, or adopting 120mm for its race bike. They're clearly getting it and paying attention now.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> Well, that's interesting, is somebody outside of factory team riding it?


Lots of people of them have them as a training bike and some use them for marathon racing but so far nobody is choosing them for WC XC racing.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

borisb said:


> Would you care to explain how Oiz and Epic suspensions are different? Because Epic has Brain? Or something else?


The Brain is a big factor. Changes the feel of the bikes completely. I would say that the strength of each bike is the other weakness. An Oiz has amazing grip (for an XC race bike) but does not offer a super firm pedalling platfrom, where as an Epic suffers a bit from lack of grip but has a nice firm pedalling platform. Both bikes work great but they ride differently.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> Further, certain bikes will flatter the strengths of certain riders and/or help equalize weaknesses. Of course at that level these are all relative and all the riders are highly competent in all areas, but I could see an amazing technical rider choosing a shorter-travel bike to save weight and gain efficiency on the climbs, for example.
> 
> I just realized that I am assuming the riders have a choice&#8230; maybe on a team like Trek where the Supercaliber or the Top Fuel could be picked, depending on preference.


I would say that use to be true, but the current generation of riders is so much more skilled than the previous generation that there is less of that.

I think more than what is ridden, it is how it is set-up that matters. Getting that suspension right is tricky on a short travel bike. Finding that balance of support and grip is difficult to do. Particularly when you are trying to make a bike climb and descend well.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

chomxxo said:


> You mean like Nino choosing a 27.5 hardtail with his superior skills instead of a big, slow 29er full-suspension? Oh wait...
> 
> I'm all ears... The Top Fuel is a much better bike. Without the Brain or a lockout, the Epic EVO would be at a disadvantage, but give it a lockout and it's got a chance. I wouldn't bet against Specialized making a race version of the EVO, or adopting 120mm for its race bike. They're clearly getting it and paying attention now.


No, I meant like Nino choosing a FS XC 29er instead of a hardtail XC 29er. It was just an example of what I said could be done, not of anything I know of being done. Simply that different riders might choose bikes based on relative strengths or weaknesses (or, simply, preferences). It had literally zero to do with your ongoing holy war.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

None of y’all’s bike pictures matter one bit until the rider is in the bike. 

Bar position is Sag dependent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

So, I never thought I'd bring this up on a mountain bike forum, but the basic problem we are dealing with when attempting to understand the position of the handlebar relative to the seat is caused by what we'd call terrain based optical distortion, and fixed by a process called orthorectification. The normal application of this is "fixing" the effects of terrain and altitude on satellite and aerial optical sensors; the relative closeness of some parts of an object or a scene distort them relative to other portions of the object or scene.

Basically, because they are not in same plane (X,Y; imagine the wheels, frame and seat are all that same surface, but the handlebar is NOT, because the end is ~14" closer to the sensor) and the sensor is at sufficient "altitude", this results on the handlebar appearing to be in a different location than it is.

Relevance? I did this for a living. Without orthorectification of images using terrain to account for altitude, the DOD would not be able to effectively do, um, things, in foreign lands.

Here's a .gif showing how things move before and after orthorectification.



https://legacy.satimagingcorp.com/media/images/Ikonos_Distortion.gif



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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> So, I never thought I'd bring this up on a mountain bike forum, but the basic problem we are dealing with when attempting to understand the position of the handlebar relative to the seat is caused by what we'd call altitude based distortion, and fixed by a process called orthorectification.
> 
> Basically, because they are not in same plane (X,Y; imagine the wheels, frame and seat are all that same surface, but the handlebar is NOT, because the end is ~14" closer to the sensor) and the sensor is at sufficient "altitude", this results on the handlebar appearing to be in a different location than it is.
> 
> ...


You will never get anything thru his thick skull&#8230;obviously


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

FJSnoozer said:


> None of y'all's bike pictures matter one bit until the rider is in the bike.
> 
> Bar position is Sag dependent.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This discussion sport of feels like people arguing about what is the correct saddle height. Which is a stupid topic. Everyone knows 670mm is ideal.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

LMN said:


> This discussion sport of feels like people arguing about what is the correct saddle height. Which is a stupid topic. Everyone knows 670mm is ideal.


I would agree but when you have one know it all antagonist trying to argue about what he believes (which is not derived from reality) works best for every other rider it gets old...


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Which end of the handle bar are you people measuring your drop to?
You need to pick a point in the same plane as the saddle and bike frame
I think this handle bar has 0 rise or maybe even negative rise (but not as much as Nino's) so a good approximation would be to measure to the top of the stem
and even then there is the distortion from the camera being centered on the middle of the bike frame so that in this view we are looking up to the saddle and bars.
You really need to measure in real life with a tape measure from a level floor to each point of interest (or go really really far back and take a picture of your bike with a big telephoto lens)


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Thank you LeDuke for https://legacy.satimagingcorp.com/media/images/Ikonos_Distortion.gif 
I have been having an endless problem with the CADD crew at work
Your .gif will help illustrate the problem


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

ccm said:


> Thank you LeDuke for https://legacy.satimagingcorp.com/media/images/Ikonos_Distortion.gif
> I have been having an endless problem with the CADD crew at work
> Your .gif will help illustrate the problem


Welcome.

What problems are they having, exactly?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

LMN said:


> I think it is pretty cool the variety of bikes that are winning.
> 
> Take a look at the Supercaliber and Spark. Both bikes won world championships and both are completely different takes on what a world cup XC bike is. Or an Oiz versus an Epic, polar opposite suspension characteristics, yet both are world cup winning bikes.
> 
> It shouldn't be surprising. A MTB course has a huge variety of terrain bikes are going excel somewhere and struggle someplace else.


Here's a crazy idea...It's almost as if the rider has more to do with winning than the bike.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Careful, a certain poster’s head might explode.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Welcome.
> 
> What problems are they having, exactly?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The problem is trying to show where former structures of potential environmental concern were located relative to property boundaries, using historical air photos.
The CADD crew have more of a structural engineering technology background and don't have the software to make the artsy adjustments requested by a geographer.
Funnily enough, in the past hour, I had a meeting with a client to discuss where a woodwaste stockpile was located back in the 1970s.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

ccm said:


> The problem is trying to show where former structures of potential environmental concern were located relative to property boundaries, using historical air photos.
> The CADD crew have more of a structural engineering technology background and don't have the software to make the artsy adjustments requested by a geographer.
> Funnily enough, in the past hour, I had a meeting with a client to discuss where a woodwaste stockpile was located back in the 1970s.


So, the two basic things you'll need to do are called orthorectification and georeferencing.

Georeferencing is basically the process of bending, twisting, stretching and moving one image so that it more or less acquires the same coordinate system, location, scale and orientation as another image.

It's mostly done, as you'd suspect, in geography/cartography centric programs like ArcGIS, but you can also do it in AutoCAD. Google "georeference AutoCAD". You'd have to know the coordinate system of the reference (main) image, but I think I think everything else should be relatively easy.

Send me a PM. I might be able to help you out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

After so many pages, georeferencing sounds so much interesting than handlebar drop. And I am not being sarcastic here.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Eric F said:


> Here's a crazy idea...It's almost as if the rider has more to do with winning than the bike.


naaahhhh this idea will never catch on



Goran_injo said:


> After so many pages, georeferencing sounds so much interesting than handlebar drop. And I am not being sarcastic here.


wait till we get intothe realm of negative georeferenderingimebob


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

Tried 2 different bikes back to back today, my M size spark rc900 and friend size S cube AMS.

Cube has 1.5c steeper HA, 8mm longer seatstay, 25mm shorter reach and 29mm shorter wheelbase.

At first it felt so wrong and unnatural but after 15 minutes of riding it felt okay, switching back after 40minutes riding, my own Spark felt so wrong  

That test confirmed the fact that it doesn't matter so much which bike you ride, as long it has decent components and is set up for you.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Raikzz said:


> Tried 2 different bikes back to back today, my M size spark rc900 and friend size S cube AMS.
> 
> Cube has 1.5c steeper HA, 8mm longer seatstay, 25mm shorter reach and 29mm shorter wheelbase.
> 
> ...


I have an Epic right now that is just set-up wrong for me. Long story short but it ended up with a stem that is way too long and way too much riser for me. Currently being 6000km from home swapping stem isn't really feasible. First ride I was like, "this sucks", but after 10hrs or so totally at home on the bike.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

LMN said:


> Long story short but it ended up with a stem that is





LMN said:


> way too long


Careful! You're gonna hurt yourself.



LMN said:


> way too much riser


But you'll be really fast until said crash.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

bikeranzin said:


> Careful! You're gonna hurt yourself.
> 
> But you'll be really fast until said crash.


 I have been doing my best to have that crash. Not sure how the stem effects my new found ability to clip every low level object with my pedals but I am sure it is related!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

which also support my view that we place way too much credit in uber expensive bike fits. To me a comfortable bike is a cosistently fast bike.
Interesting fact, I fitted a shorter stem on my bike to experiment with the shorter effective reach.for more technical terrain crash avoidance. I have knots in my shoulder and neck muscles that needs physio. This has been for the last 8 weeks. Tonight I fitted the 80mm back on the bike and no more sore neck and shoulders.
XC bike fit is a compromise of many requirements


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> which also support my view that we place way too much credit in uber expensive bike fits. To me a comfortable bike is a cosistently fast bike.


Uber exensive bike fits are usually too rigid. Someone has a very precise idea of how bikes should fit and they don't adapt it to rider preference.

But fit and set-up does matter. For example to make my current ride work I had to add some air pressure and increase the compression dampening on the fork. It gives the necessary support to ride the bike aggressively but the bike is a bit more tiring to ride. The difference is small but it would impact my race performance.


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## tommyrod74 (Jul 3, 2002)

LMN said:


> Uber exensive bike fits are usually too rigid. Someone has a very precise idea of how bikes should fit and they don't adapt it to rider preference.
> 
> But fit and set-up does matter. For example to make my current ride work I had to add some air pressure and increase the compression dampening on the fork. It gives the necessary support to ride the bike aggressively but the bike is a bit more tiring to ride. The difference is small but it would impact my race performance.


I ran into this issue several times when riding slightly longer travel bikes as race bikes. Difficult to find that balance with the suspension that kept it firm enough for aggressive riding without beating me up on rougher sections of trail. A 100 mm bike seems like it's much easier to set up for that set of compromises.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

tommyrod74 said:


> I ran into this issue several times when riding slightly longer travel bikes as race bikes. Difficult to find that balance with the suspension that kept it firm enough for aggressive riding without beating me up on rougher sections of trail. A 100 mm bike seems like it's much easier to set up for that set of compromises.


very true. For a 120mm travel bike to feel supportive i need to dial up the low speed compression which makes it harsh over the smaller bumps.So three compression are necessary whereas a 100mm travel bike only needs 2


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

tommyrod74 said:


> I ran into this issue several times when riding slightly longer travel bikes as race bikes. Difficult to find that balance with the suspension that kept it firm enough for aggressive riding without beating me up on rougher sections of trail. A 100 mm bike seems like it's much easier to set up for that set of compromises.


I find this to be true with most of the modern geometry bikes. But I would describe it more as they need to be ridden aggressively to make the suspension work. If you are just cruising along an easy trail the fork feel like crap. This is more a comfort versus performance issue.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Wondering if this statement is still true?


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

To be still true would have to mean it once was true. Which it wasn’t.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

I was a bit bored at work today so I made some statistics over the top 5 finishers in world cups, olympics and world championship for XCC and XCO during 2021.
So for womens XCC Specialized bikes (regardless of team) were in the top 5 a total of 8 times and so on.

So if you are a woman and want to be top 5 you should be on a Specialized, and if you are a man you should be on a Cannondale or Thömus, because we all know it is all about the bike, not the rider or the team 

For the Trek riders I think they were all on the Supercaliber, so pretty good despite the apparently bad geometry.
I am a man and race on a Specialized, at least now I know why I never win...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> I am a man and race on a Specialized, at least now I know why I never win...


Take up short track racing...


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

NordieBoy said:


> Take up short track racing...


That would be even worse I think, I have zero explosiveness... I went the other way and am focusing on stage races and marathons instead


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Skier78 said:


> That would be even worse I think, I have zero explosiveness... I went the other way and am focusing on stage races and marathons instead


Just keep making excuses. LOOK AT THE CHART...the bike alone puts you in the top 3!


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

shouldn't BMC be in there for men (Pidcock)?


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

ccm said:


> shouldn't BMC be in there for men (Pidcock)?


He had 3 top 5 in xco, so just outside the list, but with Carouds 5th place in the last world cup that actually makes it 4 BMC, so tied with Orbea, Kross and Trek, but I only had five places in my list.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Skier78 said:


> So if you are a woman and want to be top 5 you should be on a Specialized, and if you are a man you should be on a Cannondale or Thömus, because we all know it is all about the bike, not the rider or the team


Legit science, rep +++!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> He had 3 top 5 in xco, so just outside the list, but with Carouds 5th place in the last world cup that actually makes it 4 BMC, so tied with Orbea, Kross and Trek, but I only had five places in my list.


Was your tie breaker the amount of negative reach?

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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

FJSnoozer said:


> Was your tie breaker the amount of negative reach?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, actually it was the tires. Continental tires is automatically -1 point in my statistics...


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Skier78 said:


> I am a man and race on a Specialized, at least now I know why I never win...


This captures the true essence of this thread.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Not a single mention of Canyon...well isn't that interesting. Flueckiger is still doing his best for Thomus to get some name recognition, but I'm staying with my prediction of him getting a bigger deal after the season.

Joking aside, your stats say that the total podium count of 21 for the Specialized Epic make it the most successful bike in the field this year by a significant margin.

Sometimes it's not what you've got, it's how you set it up. Say what you will about HTA and stem, Mathias has set up his Lightrider beautifully. You can see the changes with backsweep from last year to making his rig totally dialed in--bars only slightly in front of the stem is where it's at for XCO now, dropper post putting him well below the bars for that huge air out over the rocks in Japan.

2021









2020











Skier78 said:


> View attachment 1947496
> 
> 
> I was a bit bored at work today so I made some statistics over the top 5 finishers in world cups, olympics and world championship for XCC and XCO during 2021.
> ...


----------



## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

I think Specialized are doing a good job at sponsoring several different teams, that is why they have so many top 5. Specialized factory, Trinity and team31 all have riders that can be top 5. 

Canyon only have mvdp, if he would have been healthy the whole season I'm pretty sure there would be a Canyon in the top 5.


----------



## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> I think Specialized are doing a good job at sponsoring several different teams, that is why they have so many top 5. Specialized factory, Trinity and team31 all have riders that can be top 5.
> 
> Canyon only have mvdp, if he would have been healthy the whole season I'm pretty sure there would be a Canyon in the top 5.


If he would have raced the whole season they'd be top 5&#8230;..


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## cycloholic (Dec 27, 2015)




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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

new SRAM Level Brakes


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Brad said:


> new SRAM Level Brakes


Look heavy as ever. But that master cylinder looks like it may actually stop an 80kg rider

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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Did Kate’s bike being too long and slack cause her to crash? 🤔


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

LOL! Now THAT’s funny!


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

How does Anton Cooper see his Garmin?










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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

bikeranzin said:


> Did Kate's bike being too long and slack cause her to crash? ?


No, but a mental lapse of overlapping wheels with the racer in front of her did. Short track racing in a group with those wide handlebars has to be tough.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

FJSnoozer said:


> How does Anton Cooper see his Garmin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting with what looks like an aluminium stem from the all carbon company Darimo.

I doubt that they look at the garmin at all during a race, just there for data collection.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> Interesting with what looks like an aluminium stem from the all carbon company Darimo.
> 
> I doubt that they look at the garmin at all during a race, just there for data collection.


Yup, looked like a one off CNC job they did for him that has knock block groove machined in for him. Knock block stem and lighter 31.6 bar.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Skier78 said:


> Interesting with what looks like an aluminium stem from the all carbon company Darimo.
> 
> I doubt that they look at the garmin at all during a race, just there for data collection.


It is interesting that him and Sam G. both run very aggressive set-ups. Bike fit philosophy always seems to a regional emphasis.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> It is interesting that him and Sam G. both run very aggressive set-ups. Bike fit philosophy always seems to a regional emphasis.


I thought Cooper ran his bars higher than his saddle lol


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Stonerider said:


> No, but a mental lapse of overlapping wheels with the racer in front of her did. Short track racing in a group with those wide handlebars has to be tough.


Wider bars should have given her more leverage to keep the bike upright.

I've clipped wheels in XC/short track a couple times and if I had been on my road bike or gravel bike I would have gone down.

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Wider bars also essentially give you "elbows out" stance without getting nasty like PFP  

They space you out from the field a little better at the start line. In the case of a collision, the closer the hit to the bike, the more likely you are to go down.


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## Danimal (Nov 18, 2004)

Though it increases your chances of pulling a Laurie Arsenault and clipping the barrier fencing and going down HARD. Was so sorry to see that happen today…

Dan


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

^wonder if the crowd pushed the barriers in a bit?


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

Stonerider said:


> No, but a mental lapse of overlapping wheels with the racer in front of her did. Short track racing in a group with those wide handlebars has to be tough.


This is far more serious of an answer than I was looking for. Do you know what thread you're in sir?


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

I had to update my very important statistics after the final races, no big differences but Scott is now tied with Thömus for mens XCO and Orbea dropped back one place due to Koretzkys puncture. Specialized and Trek are really dominating the womens racing this year.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

bikeranzin said:


> This is far more serious of an answer than I was looking for. Do you know what thread you're in sir?


Yeah the "equipment" thread, right? Wide handlebars are part of the equipment on a MTB if I'm not correct. Kate was coming up against the barriers on the left and she wanted to avoid a crash like Laura Stigger had Sunday in the XCO start but instead she clipped the rear wheel of Rebecca Mcconnell and went down anyway.


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## borisb (Nov 15, 2017)

Skier78 said:


> View attachment 1948948
> 
> 
> I had to update my very important statistics after the final races, no big differences but Scott is now tied with Thömus for mens XCO and Orbea dropped back one place due to Koretzkys puncture. Specialized and Trek are really dominating the womens racing this year.


You could maybe use another slow day at work to do stats for flats at last XCO race. Would be interesting to see if there is a brand/model that stands out.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

borisb said:


> You could maybe use another slow day at work to do stats for flats at last XCO race. Would be interesting to see if there is a brand/model that stands out.


Would need a really slow day for that, would need to watch the replays of all the races, and it is difficult with tires since a lot of the time the riders are on models that are not available to the public.

An educated guess on the tires that punctures most in world cups:
Maxxis Aspen 2.4"
Specialized S-works tires
Schwalbe liteskin tires

Not sure if the Specialized tires are better this year, but previously they have had a really bad track record with the s-works casings. A bit disappointing that Maxxis are having so many punctures, they have been my goto brand for years for tires that are robust.


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## edu2 (Jan 14, 2007)

Final race, GC positions on play. Some tires just can't handle the pressure.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Skier78 said:


> Would need a really slow day for that, would need to watch the replays of all the races, and it is difficult with tires since a lot of the time the riders are on models that are not available to the public.
> 
> An educated guess on the tires that punctures most in world cups:
> Maxxis Aspen 2.4"
> ...


Pros aren't racing on the maxxis we can buy, so it's irrelevant. 170 tpi tires that are basically bed sheets coated in rubber.

Also, lite skin is gone, and who knows what the pros are really racing on for schwalbe. Current super race are 67tpi and 650-750g.

Every time I've tried to do a local analysis of flats I quickly realize the rider (or their tire pressure?) is the causation and the tire brand is just correlation. Or I could tell you that I would never run vittorias or specialized 

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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Skier78 said:


> Would need a really slow day for that, would need to watch the replays of all the races, and it is difficult with tires since a lot of the time the riders are on models that are not available to the public.
> 
> An educated guess on the tires that punctures most in world cups:
> Maxxis Aspen 2.4"
> ...


Looks like Christopher Blevins was using the Specialized Renegade Control version instead of the S-Works version in the XCO race at Snowshoe.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

I think the tyres were more tired than the tired riders trying to select the right tyres for their tired tyred machines....


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Skier78 said:


> View attachment 1948948
> 
> 
> I had to update my very important statistics after the final races, no big differences but Scott is now tied with Thömus for mens XCO and Orbea dropped back one place due to Koretzkys puncture. Specialized and Trek are really dominating the womens racing this year.


odd because Ghost factory Racing won the Ladies Team title which means those long ass bikes are better suited to the ladies yet they're not even in your top 5. Ghost is followed by Trek, Specialized, American Eagle then Massi so a mix of steeper and slacker bikes. Maybe for the ladies it maketh not a dfference...

On the Men's side its Cannondale leading the overall with KMC Orbea ahead of Scott then Kross.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Brad said:


> odd because Ghost factory Racing won the Ladies Team title which means those long ass bikes are better suited to the ladies yet they're not even in your top 5. Ghost is followed by Trek, Specialized, American Eagle then Massi so a mix of steeper and slacker bikes. Maybe for the ladies it maketh not a dfference...
> 
> On the Men's side its Cannondale leading the overall with KMC Orbea ahead of Scott then Kross.


Is Scott technically the worst finishing women's bike?

Statistically?

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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Four out of the group of eight leaders were knocked out due to punctures, correct? Something like that. These guys need to pick better tires.

It also seems that if they were more skilled with CO2 and a dynoplug or stans dart then they could stop, fix it, and be back on the trail in under 60 seconds instead of riding to the pit and giving up 3 minutes.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Brad said:


> odd because Ghost factory Racing won the Ladies Team title which means those long ass bikes are better suited to the ladies yet they're not even in your top 5. Ghost is followed by Trek, Specialized, American Eagle then Massi so a mix of steeper and slacker bikes. Maybe for the ladies it maketh not a dfference...
> 
> On the Men's side its Cannondale leading the overall with KMC Orbea ahead of Scott then Kross.


Not sure how the team ranking works (I actually cannot find the ranking at all online?) but I would guess that they count all the points, not just the top 5 like I did, and I also made it easy for myself by giving 1 point for every position 1-5 with no difference. For specialized they get points combined from three different teams in my ranking, so the bike manufacturer get more exposure than Ghost that only have one team sponsored (as far as I know at least)


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## borisb (Nov 15, 2017)

TylerVernon said:


> Four out of the group of eight leaders were knocked out due to punctures, correct? Something like that. These guys need to pick better tires.
> 
> It also seems that if they were more skilled with CO2 and a dynoplug or stans dart then they could stop, fix it, and be back on the trail in under 60 seconds instead of riding to the pit and giving up 3 minutes.


On screen Nino's front tire didn't look completely flat. Was he riding with insert?


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## cal_len1 (Nov 18, 2017)

Brad Copeland has said that Kate has not ran inserts since switching to the 2.4s, but I don't know whether this applies to Nino.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Phone responded to old post.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

borisb said:


> On screen Nino's front tire didn't look completely flat. Was he riding with insert?


I'm not sure but it certainly looked like it.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Straight out of the horses mouth as I know someone believes all the pros are running bars level.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Can almost hear heads exploding.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

peabody said:


> Straight out of the horses mouth as I know someone believes all the pros are running bars level.
> 
> View attachment 1949644


Welp&#8230;I guess that explains her regression. Once that bike set up is fixed, the world is hers!


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

5 cm is 1.96", I wouldn't classify that as "level".


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## Danimal (Nov 18, 2004)

I would, for a pro’s bike


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Was waiting for someone to comment on this but it's a good illustration at an angle we don't normally see. The Scott/Syncros team is definitely leading the way on big backsweep, but you see this on other pro bikes too like Flueckiger's Thomus. It's another thing that WC pro teams have an appreciation for that hasn't made its way onto most riders' bikes yet, at least nobody that I know.



cycloholic said:


>


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> Was waiting for someone to comment on this but it's a good illustration at an angle we don't normally see. The Scott/Syncros team is definitely leading the way on big backsweep, but you see this on other pro bikes too like Flueckiger's Thomus. It's another thing that WC pro teams have an appreciation for that hasn't made its way onto most riders' bikes yet, at least nobody that I know.


Don't the Syncros Fraser bars have an fairly standard 6° upsweep and 8-9° backsweep?








SYNCROS Fraser iC SL WC, 740mm, -40°


The bar of choice of Nino Schurter and Lars Forster of the SCOTT-SRAM team, the Fraser features our integrated bar and stem concept, now also...




www.syncros.com


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> Was waiting for someone to comment on this but it's a good illustration at an angle we don't normally see. The Scott/Syncros team is definitely leading the way on big backsweep, but you see this on other pro bikes too like Flueckiger's Thomus. It's another thing that WC pro teams have an appreciation for that hasn't made its way onto most riders' bikes yet, at least nobody that I know.


I actually see it all of the time.










The back sweep you are recognizing is an optical illusion. This is due to the virtual stem length which is manufactured by the forward angle of the bars protruding from the integrated stem. The longer the virtual stem length you order, the more dramatic the angle at the bend will appear. (Actually the complete opposite of what you think is going on with your short stem worship.)

Her bar is 9 degree back sweep, the same that came on my 2013 hardtail, my 2016 FS, what I put on my current bike, (my wife's factory Sworks bar is 8, I don't even know how she rides that thing. )

Back sweep has nothing to do with progressive geometry, it has everything to do with fit, and dealing with wrist pain and Neuromuscular issues. That's why I didn't buy a Fraser bar because I didn't want to be forced into a locked in angle. A 2 degree HT difference requires a different rotation of the bars to maintain the same fit and possible avoid numb hands while racing or pain in the palms.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Pretty sure 8 or 9 has been the industry standard for a long time.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Pretty sure 8 or 9 has been the industry standard for a long time.


Looooooooong time


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

peabody said:


> Looooooooong time


Since the 90s? I was running riser bars in the 90s, maybe flat bars were straight?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

LMN said:


> Since the 90s? I was running riser bars in the 90s, maybe flat bars were straight?


Flat bars in the 90's were around 5deg avg. I've been on 8ish for probably 15yrs. it's not a new phenomenon.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I mean, it's right there in the photo and yet here we are denying photographic proof again.

Yes, specs say most handlebars have 9* of "sweep." How the rider sets up the bars determines the real amount of upsweep or backsweep, in other words that's generally a split figure. 

The big difference is that Syncros bar/stem combos have 9* of locked-in backsweep, upsweep being an addition, not a subtraction. Most riders would not set up their bars this way. Flueckiger has chosen to do so with a separate bar and stem. I'd say the Swiss have researched this as useful; I have my opinons about why, but that doesn't change those pesky facts...


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> I mean, it's right there in the photo and yet here we are denying photographic proof again.
> 
> Yes, specs say most handlebars have 9* of "sweep." How the rider sets up the bars determines the real amount of upsweep or backsweep, in other words that's generally a split figure.
> 
> The big difference is that Syncros bar/stem combos have 9* of locked-in backsweep, upsweep being an addition, not a subtraction. Most riders would not set up their bars this way. Flueckiger has chosen to do so with a separate bar and stem. I'd say the Swiss have researched this as useful; I have my opinons about why, but that doesn't change those pesky facts...


Did you not read my response or do have you blocked me? The Scott bar is 9 degrees, identical to what every XC bike I have purchased had stock.

You are presenting no facts. The only facts here are
The Fraser bar is confirmed as having 9 degrees of backsweep by the Scott website and the Scott mechanics.

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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

peabody said:


> apparently now upsweep creates added backsweep, this must factor into his negative reach lol. I love reading the insights into an imbecile.


I believe what he is trying to say is if you rotate the bar enough. The back sweep is reduced. However it is minuscule.

But this has nothing to do with the original post claiming Scott is doing something new and progressive with backsweep. He was called out, so now the argument will go in a circle.

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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

I used to have upsweep until I got ulnar tunnel syndrome
now I have downsweep to reduce the pressure on the outsides of my palms


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Are there any new info about the prototype mud tyres that were used in Les Gets? Found nothing on Maxxis and Schwalbe sites.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

arnea said:


> Are there any new info about the prototype mud tyres that were used in Les Gets? Found nothing on Maxxis and Schwalbe sites.


Here you go: Spotted: Prototype, next gen XC MTB tires from Maxxis, Michelin & Schwalbe Spotted: New XC tires from Maxxis, Michelin and Schwalbe


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

More facts on WC cockpits, the good, bad, and ugly. A lot of variation out there these days.

For the record Flueckiger runs an 11-degree backsweep on 710mm bars.

PFP is running a 50-70mm stem.



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/round-up-14-xc-world-cup-cockpit-setups-past-and-present.html



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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> More facts on WC cockpits, the good, bad, and ugly. A lot of variation out there these days.
> 
> For the record Flueckiger runs an 11-degree backsweep on 710mm bars.
> 
> ...


Your opinions are not facts, been proven wrong many times but you just don't listen.
Kate Courtney's own mechanic said her drop is 2" yet you still say it's level....which is fact?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nope never said a thing about Kate Courtney’s saddle-bar drop. Everything I’ve said in this thread is backed up by citations. A consensus amongst trolls does not overrule facts. Trolls get reported and ignored.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Nope never said a thing about Kate Courtney's saddle-bar drop. Everything I've said in this thread is backed up by citations. A consensus amongst trolls does not overrule facts. Trolls get reported and ignored.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh boy...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

My truvativ noir t30 SL carbon is 700mm wide with 10degree backsweep.
The Cannondale bar on my scalpel is 9degree backsweep with 740mm width.
I had a CSixx bar that was 720mm with 6 degree backsweep.
After adjusting stem length to keep the saddle to grip reach the saw the bike felt exactly the same. No miracle improvements in anything


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> For the record Flueckiger runs an 11-degree backsweep on 710mm bars.


Do you think this is significant?

My experience has been that backsweep solely depends on who your bar sponsor is. Does his sponsor have other options?

Edit: Yes his sponsor does have different option for sweep.

Bars come in 8.5, 10, 13. And you can get that in regular and E-version.








THE flatbar - bike ahead composites


Our THE FLATBAR is a super light allrounder. It is light, very stable and available in 3 different backsweeps, of course NSA included!




bike-ahead-composites.de


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> More facts on WC cockpits, the good, bad, and ugly. A lot of variation out there these days.
> 
> For the record Flueckiger runs an 11-degree backsweep on 710mm bars.
> 
> ...


Do you realise your facts are more fluid than the Nile?
All those riders change bar positions depending on course and their own physiology at the time of the event or where they are in the season


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> All those riders change bar positions depending on course and their own physiology at the time of the event or where they are in the season


I am super sensitive to bike set-up. But there seems to be zero correlation to rider pace and set-up sensitivity.

I saw it this weekend. I did two bike fits for riders who were racing nationals on borrowed bikes. Both bikes were way different than what they had been riding. Both riders won their categories (U17, U23) with lap times that would have had them battling for the elite podium.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Nope never said a thing about Kate Courtney's saddle-bar drop. Everything I've said in this thread is backed up by citations. A consensus amongst trolls does not overrule facts. Trolls get reported and ignored.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh really, do tell....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Quoted for emphasis.



Salbutamol bass said:


> Oh really, do tell....
> 
> View attachment 1950080


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

LMN said:


> I am super sensitive to bike set-up. But there seems to be zero correlation to rider pace and set-up sensitivity.
> 
> I saw it this weekend. I did two bike fits for riders who were racing nationals on borrowed bikes. Both bikes were way different than what they had been riding. Both riders won their categories (U17, U23) with lap times that would have had them battling for the elite podium.


I change my saddle height all the time (no not just with a dropper) depending on flexibility, hydration fatigue etc. My range is 72.5cm to 74cm centre of bb to top of saddle. The height also changes with different shoes having different stack height. I don't bother changing between them all the time either.
If the course is super technical and I need to look further ahead I might lift the bar 10mm. For a marathon Its slammed to the lowest level because aero. Bars are never higher than the saddle at pedalling height. lowest bar position for marathon is as low as my road bikes handlebar tops. I


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Salbutamol bass said:


> Oh really, do tell....
> 
> View attachment 1950080


dropper dropped a few cm, photograph angle is below the centre line of the subjects knees, and slightly from th front and his "facts" support his argument....

please 2021 don't end.there's too many pearls in this thread


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

lots of pissing in the wind in here... tone it down guys.


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## Skier78 (Jun 10, 2016)

Brad said:


> I change my saddle height all the time (no not just with a dropper) depending on flexibility, hydration fatigue etc. My range is 72.5cm to 74cm centre of bb to top of saddle. The height also changes with different shoes having different stack height. I don't bother changing between them all the time either.
> If the course is super technical and I need to look further ahead I might lift the bar 10mm. For a marathon Its slammed to the lowest level because aero. Bars are never higher than the saddle at pedalling height. lowest bar position for marathon is as low as my road bikes handlebar tops. I


I think that varies a lot from person to person. I am super sensitive to changing saddle height/saddle for/aft and have the same position and the same pedals on all my bikes (2 xc bikes, a cyclocross and an enduro bike), even 5mm off in height feels really weird (for example if the seat post slips). The two xc bikes have exactly the same drop (and bars), the enduro has about 15mm less drop and the cyclocross about 15mm more drop. For me keeping the settings similar also makes it easier to jump between bikes during the week.

For the professionals I still think that the (sometimes extreme) bar/stem combinations are just about getting their hands into a position that they are used to on a frame size that is available from their sponsor, and focusing on the climbing. Back when the bars were less than 700mm I would say the normal backsweep was 6* for a straight bar and 9* for a riser bar, but with the wider straight bars 9* seems to have become standard. Judging stem length and back sweep from a picture is not possible regardless of what angle the picture is taken from, a good example is the Baslerstab bar/stem, it doesn't even have a stem and it is still offered in a 35 and 50 mm stem length (and 9* backsweep).


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Brad said:


> I change my saddle height all the time (no not just with a dropper) depending on flexibility, hydration fatigue etc. My range is 72.5cm to 74cm centre of bb to top of saddle.


Really? I was never racing in mtb, so for me mtb is just fun, but I really can't even think on this. For me, 2 or 3mm difference (when putting bike in car for travel and then not setting seat to exactly same height) means whole bunch of issues. From weird feeling on bike, to back and legs issues on slightly longer ride. So I can't imagine doing this myself, especially not in 1.5cm range. But I believe people are different and I'm sure some of you guys have way more experience in racing needs in mtb then I do (my pro sport experience is in sport done in different time of a year, and there things for me were also set inside of millimeters without changes  ).


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Ho hum...









Watch: How Kate Courtney sets up her Scott mountain bikes for race day


In Episode 3 of Rising, Kate Courtney shows how she and her mechanic, Brad Copeland, set her bike up for race day. Every course is different, so every course requires subtle tweaks to things like tire pressure, suspension setup, and even whether or not she’s running a water bottle cage. But...




bikerumor.com


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

We test and compare three MTB top bikes: Specialized Epic vs Scott Spark vs Cannondale Scalpel


These are three genuine top bikes that are currently leading the way in competitive XCO mountain biking and we were lucky enough to test and compare them.




www.brujulabike.com





Interesting comparison on three of the top World Cup bikes set up with their defaults. My money was put down on the Epic, but one day, perhaps normal people will be able to buy the new Spark. Cannondale finally came out with a 120mm Ocho, but it takes a magic spell to actually get service on their forks. I kept a Lefty Max 1.0 in service for about ten years, too bad.


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Ho hum...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So basically you're saying by posting all these pics that you don't believe her drop is 2" even tho 
her mechanic said it was. Those pesky facts just get in the way of your opinion don't they. The person 
setting the bike up tells you the number, but you think you're right and he's lying.

Biggest troll on here, admins should give you a time out since you report everyone else.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

This is how photography works with perspective. 10 Tips to Use Perspective in Photography

Please stop taking measurements with you eyeballs using photographs. You are posting pictures of bikes taken from ground or knee height. This style will make the grip which is closer than the saddle to the lense appear at a different height. It's also a better perspective for shooting a person as it will make them appear less short and squatty.

Here, let your eyes take some more measurements:
Same bike, different camera angles.

Low crank height/ front:










Above head / center:










Chest height/center:










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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Official answer:


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Official answer:
> 
> View attachment 1950245


If you unblocked people you would see someone had already asked and the "official" answer was 5cm.
I know it's hard for you to accept facts, and you want to spin it in every direction, but the fact is it's not level or above.

I know it's painful for you to be called out, now it's desperate acts to save face. It's not the 1st time you've been caught and it won't be the last.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

"I was incorrect...it appears that most XCO WC racers have a drop from saddle to bars."

Can someone explain why the above statement is soooo hard to type? I'm wrong all the time. I frequently say: Sorry about that...I was wrong. Or, sometimes I mix it up and say: I was wrong...sorry about that.

BUT, I try to never double-down on dumb. I just don't get it.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

I think he thinks Brad's answer was that the _seat_ was a couple of cm lower than the bars...


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

All I have to add is there seems to be an unhealthy number of KC pics on here..... Like...creeper level.


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

MessagefromTate said:


> He's from Texas, take that into account regarding an inability to admit when you are incorrect.


I know plenty of those in California too! It’s not state selective.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

mik_git said:


> I think he thinks Brad's answer was that the _seat_ was a couple of cm lower than the bars...


Nah I’m on his ignore list for calling him out continuously so he wouldn’t read my replies


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

na i mean brad as in bbcopeland brad


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

This seems to have been removed but was easy to find....


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

MessagefromTate said:


> He's from Texas, take that into account regarding an inability to admit when you are incorrect.


I'm from TX. 
The state has it's issues for certain (like anywhere) but stereotyping 30 million people as all behaving the same is closed minded, offensive & irrational. 
Pretty sure you wouldn't do the same based on skin color/ religion/ sexualality/ etc.
Why your thinking about that I'm going to get back to rigging up this AK47 mount on my emissions deleted e-bike. 

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I think, no matter how many times and posts are made in response, this thread isn't about me or my opinions. The whole pissing in the wind interchange you may find amusing as a hangout here--I just don't have the time for it. I might talk a little smack you in person over a beer, but it's just a waste of time for me to "hang out" on MTBR. I come here to learn new things and post up info on bikes. Whether I'm wrong or right is irrelevant, think I've said that three times. So for those of you keeping score on what I posted 3 months ago, maybe go out and ride your bike more? I got a race this weekend, see you out there...


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## Salbutamol bass (Jul 16, 2021)

chomxxo said:


> Whether I'm wrong or right is irrelevant.


Except you keep saying you’re right, and everyone else is wrong.
No one would bother with you if you didn’t come in here stating your opinions as fact.


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## TDLover (Sep 14, 2014)

Do you all remember that troll "lanedetroitcity" who used to lurk around here? I swear this chromox dude behaves the same way, I wonder if he is the same person, after all he was banned for some time. 

Everyone who post around here get things wrong from time to time and when proven wrong, there is no big drama, they just admit it or move on, but this guy takes everything personal. If some dares challenge his view he makes sure no one can debate their views peacefully, he has got to control the rhetoric, even if its the wrong one.


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

TDLover said:


> Do you all remember that troll "lanedetroitcity" who used to lurk around here? I swear this chromox dude behaves the same way, I wonder if he is the same person, after all he was banned for some time.
> 
> Everyone who post around here get things wrong from time to time and when proven wrong, there is no big drama, they just admit it or move on, but this guy takes everything personal. If some dares challenge his view he makes sure no one can debate their views peacefully, he has got to control the rhetoric, even if its the wrong one.


Similar, but different. Lane had a beef with KC, but Chom is a fan of her. Personally, I think Chom is much more earnest of a forum contributor, particularly outside the WC threads. LDC was…


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Oh Lane is still around. He’s been posting in the 2021 Epic EVO thread.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Good video summarizing changes to XC bikes over the past decade.







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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

My 2008 scalpel carbon 1 had a 74degree seat tube, 69 degree head tube, longer wheelbase and 26x2.2 tyres with answer taper wall carbon bars iif 660mm
What’s the point of the above video other than increased post count?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Well, something that is on-topic is, just because world cup racers set up their bike a certain way, is it the right way?

My conversation with Brad Copeland continued on besides what I posted. He had some interesting insights into Kulhavy's and Gaze's bikes, which he's ridden before, having worked on the Specialized team prior to Scott. Some of the tidbits I'll save for myself as I always banged my head wondering about those guys.

One thing he confirmed is that Gaze's bike is set up to mimic his road bike.

Do you think that's a good idea? Discuss...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

chomxxo said:


> Well, something that is on-topic is, just because world cup racers set up their bike a certain way, is it the right way?


If a mediocre master sets up his bike one way is that the right way? 

There are no certainty about bike set-ups. I look at Sam Gaze and Kulhavy's bikes and think that only a complete and total idiot would ever think to set their bike up like that. But both of them have been really fast, and at this particular moment of time Sam Gaze might actually be the fastest XC racer in the world. Maybe they are on to something and I am the idiot.

Your musing about racers and bike set-up are completely off base. The vast majority of them are experimenting all the time trying to find what works for them. I think one of the things you fail to recognize is that bike set-up is very rider specific. Riding styles, skill level, size, body proportions are all going to lead to different set-ups.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

What I want to know is who the Discuss is directed at since most of us are on ignore.....


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