# XC Hardtail wins loop time challenge against Enduro FS bike



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I'm not 100% sure this guy is a bona-fide pro, but he's at least an expert. He rides both bikes on the same loop. As I suspected, the race was won on the climbs. Lighter bike, faster loop time. Both of my hardtails, depending on the wheelset/tires on, range between 24-28 lbs. The new XC build hopefully finished by Thanksgiving will be somewhere between 23-24 lbs with 700-800g tires. Not that I'm the greatest climber, especially with flat pedals, but a relatively light hardtail with the right fork and tires can be the real deal out there, up or down --- in this video's case, up more than down. This video pretty much confirms that a lighter bike will clearly win on loop times...yes it's one rider, one set of data, but I'm sure it will be reproducible. 

One last food for thought: look carefully at how fast he's going downhill on the XC bike, and compare that to whatever you are riding downhill. I'm riding both an XC and AM hardtail about as fast, or maybe one would say, as slow as he did downhill with the XC bike. I speed up on straights, I slow down before it gets steep/chunky, just as he did. As an intermediate rider with no formal training, I was surprised at how similar our speeds and styles were downhill on his XC bike's descent. I think he took a few steeper drops faster than I would have, but other than that it was eerily similar. However, I know for sure there are pros that can shred that downhill portion significantly faster on an XC bike, which does make me wonder if this guy is an expert and not a pro. He also didn't have a dropper post on the XC bike, that's one big disadvantage that levels the playing field a bit for someone at my level. But he crushed the Enduro Bike on the uphills. Which should really beg the question: if Enduro bikes were made to both climb and descend, but they still suck at climbing relative to an XC bike, then maybe some of the bros should think about downgrading to a trail or downcountry bike for a happier medium?


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

IMO there isn’t a right, or wrong answer here. It’s just preference.

Also, enduro bikes are designed not to suck to ride uphill (they don’t bob uncontrollably, and you are in a comfortable body position to grind out a lot of very), but that doesn’t mean they are fast. It’s a product of the enduro race format. Where the riders have to pedal most of the race, but those uphills aren’t timed.

And because of that, they are essentially turning into mini downhill bikes, but with full range cassettes, dropper posts, and other bits to make them more well rounded.

XC races time both the uphill and downhill, and as you said, most races are won on the uphill. so those bikes are also optimized for that with light weight.

So if you care about your overall loop times, then an XC/Trail/Downcountry bike is probably a better choice for you.

But if you care more about having the most fun as possible on the faster downhill bits, or want to set the fastest time downhill, or even want a bike you can ride on your local trails, and at the local lift accessed bike park, then an enduro bike probably makes more sense for you.


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## OldMike (Apr 30, 2020)

Not surprised. IME a FS's main benefit is comfort.......

Also, a "Race" XC FS (Top, Fuel, Epic, Etc) would have bested both IMO.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

If you put an XC bike in a race on a XC course, it will beat other types of bikes. Yup.

If you put that same bike against an Enduro bike on an Enduro course where only the descending segments are timed, the results will be opposite.

This is not new information.

My point is that it would be more interesting if they compared bikes that weren't so far apart on the spectrum.


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## trulede (Sep 12, 2018)

I was surprised by how much faster the XC bike was, but not that it was faster. Especially because it was a hardtail and the downhills were fairly technical. However, the enduro bike looked like more fun on the descents. The idea that Enduro bikes can climb fast is silly.

You don't _need_ a dropper post to ride an XC bike fast.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

trulede said:


> You don't _need_ a dropper post to ride an XC bike fast.


I used to think this way. Depends on the terrain, and really why not have more fun while you're going fast? Safer too.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

As pointed out, be interesting ti see how a FS xc or down country bike does, also how a modern trail bike: compares instead of full on enduro.


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## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

I can confirm these results. XC bikes are faster, but harder to ride rough downhills. Enduro bikes absorb more impact but aren’t as fast as a racing bikes. 

Is there news here?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I think most people underestimate how rough terrain has to be in order for an enduro bike to be faster than an XC bike going down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

People tend to vastly over-estimate how technical a trail is or think they need some kind of DH bike because it's DH. It takes a pretty whacked out DH trail to make an enduro or DH bike faster. Like mandatory drops, mandatory gaps, near vertical rollers, etc. It might be more comfortable to do a lot of DHs on an enduro bike, but it's going to take a pretty hard trail to make the enduro bike faster and it's probably going to be a little more common for regions that don't have these trails available to "use what they have"...


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I routinely do my fastest PR’s locally (on our techies descents) on my shorter travel bikes.
However, when it comes to the fun-factor, it’s not even funny how different the experiences are.
It puts a complete new spin on the phrase “sh¡t-eating grin”
The big bike is a giggle pig all of the way down…the shorter travel bikes (currently 120/140), I am grinning at the end because I didn’t eat any sh¡t!

(I am exaggerating for comedic purposes, but you get the gist)

Each have their place.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

Another test, use two riders, have them race head to head, then swap bikes and do it again.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

ocnLogan said:


> IMO there isn’t a right, or wrong answer here. It’s just preference.
> 
> Also, enduro bikes are designed not to suck to ride uphill (they don’t bob uncontrollably, and you are in a comfortable body position to grind out a lot of very), but that doesn’t mean they are fast. It’s a product of the enduro race format. Where the riders have to pedal most of the race, but those uphills aren’t timed.
> 
> ...


Enduro racing effin sucks. Bring back super d where you have to sprint up the climbs while your heart is exploding and your arms are dead from arm pump from the DH sections. I can't belive part of the enduro build involves planning for soft pedaling. Don't get me started on sidewalk style flow courses.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

Anything marginally faster uphill whether a bike or rider is going to win because uphills last MUCH longer than downhills, like 30min up vs 5min down. If you were to look at percentage differences between up and down then the enduro bike should be much faster.



> Which should really beg the question: if Enduro bikes were made to both climb and descend, but they still suck at climbing relative to an XC bike, then maybe some of the bros should think about downgrading to a trail or downcountry bike for a happier medium?


Nobody with an enduro bike cares about how fast they go up hill, all that matters is that they can get to the top at a comfortable effort. They are trying to find the limit of how heavy a bike can be before they cant pedal it uphill, they arent trying to find the limit of how XC a bike can be before its not good at downhill.

From what I've seen the XC guys use the downhill to cool off and get energy back, the enduro guys use the uphill to cool off and get energy back. Their bikes are a reflection of that.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

milehi said:


> Enduro racing effin sucks. Bring back super d where you have to sprint up the climbs while your heart is exploding and your arms are dead from arm pump from the DH sections. I can't belive part of the enduro build involves planning for soft pedaling. Don't get me started on sidewalk style flow courses.


I don't race, so I don't really care about any particular format. Which means I'm far from an expert on them. But, while the uphills aren't timed in the traditional sense (counted towards your race time), they do have time penalties for being too slow afaik. I know I've seen mention of it a couple times while racers are attempting to fix their bike, and then getting time penalties for not doing the stage within a certain timeframe. So it while its definitely not a type of racing that encourages you to "breathe through your eyeballs" on every climb, I don't actually know most that do it would call it "soft pedaling".

But I can appreciate that enduro racing has helped bring about more capable, yet non-sucky to pedal bikes. And at least from what I can tell, enduro racing shares more similarities with how most average joes ride around me (don't really care how long it takes to go up, but try to go fast on the downhills), so I can see why it appears to have really taken off as a race format.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

idividebyzero said:


> Anything marginally faster uphill whether a bike or rider is going to win because uphills last MUCH longer than downhills, like 30min up vs 5min down. If you were to look at percentage differences between up and down then the enduro bike should be much faster.
> 
> 
> Nobody with an enduro bike cares about how fast they go up hill, all that matters is that they can get to the top at a comfortable effort. They are trying to find the limit of how heavy a bike can be before they cant pedal it uphill, they arent trying to find the limit of how XC a bike can be before its not good at downhill.
> ...


^^This!!

As much as this is an interesting thought experiment the conclusion that an XC bike is faster on an Enduro track is actually *NOT TRUE... *because Enduro tracks/races are not timed on the UP. 

So technically they should only be comparing the down times and the Enduro bike wins that part!!! 

Instead of a "winch and plummet" trail set I think it would be very interesting to try this kind of test with a regular meandering up and down trail and see what kinds of average time they get with different types of bikes.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

duplicate


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> I'm not 100% sure this guy is a bona-fide pro, but he's at least an expert. ...which does make me wonder if this guy is an expert and not a pro.


That's Rich Payne. Check out the EWS or bust series on youtube. He raced world cup four-cross for years as well as downhill and enduro racing more recently. You are correct, he is not one of the top-5 riders, but he is still pretty damn fast, GoPro makes everything look slower.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

richj8990 said:


> I'm riding both an XC and AM hardtail about as fast, or maybe one would say, as slow as he did downhill with the XC bike. I speed up on straights, I slow down before it gets steep/chunky, just as he did. As an intermediate rider with no formal training, I was surprised at how similar our speeds and styles were downhill on his XC bike's descent. I think he took a few steeper drops faster than I would have, but other than that it was eerily similar.


The total course distance was 4.9 miles, with over 1000' of climbing and he did it twice, so nearly 10 miles and 2100' in a total time of 75 minutes. I don't know you or have any idea what level of rider you are, you state "intermediate" in your post, but I'd suggest there's some wishful thinking going on if you think you're anywhere near as fast as this guy, definitely up and especially down.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

idividebyzero said:


> Anything marginally faster uphill whether a bike or rider is going to win because uphills last MUCH longer than downhills, like 30min up vs 5min down. If you were to look at percentage differences between up and down then the enduro bike should be much faster.
> 
> 
> Nobody with an enduro bike cares about how fast they go up hill, all that matters is that they can get to the top at a comfortable effort. They are trying to find the limit of how heavy a bike can be before they cant pedal it uphill, they arent trying to find the limit of how XC a bike can be before its not good at downhill.
> ...


Not only that, but the XC bike retains it's advantage on mild to moderate DHs, it's still faster.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

My racing specialty is XC. I am reasonably fast. I currently race an XC HT (I even removed the dropper it came with) and can out descend MOST people on full suspension bikes on my XC bike. And the looks I get doing the large jumps at the bike park in full XC gear is entertaining.

I don't ride my 170mm coil sprung enduro bike to be fast. I ride it because it is the most fun bike I have ever ridden. If I could only have one bike, that is the bike I would have. I don't care how fast or slow it is, it is the most fun. I also like doing stupid stuff on my bike, and the XC bike has zero tolerance for being stupid.


Me: "I have been meaning to try this 7' huck to flat"
GF: "Why don't you do it now?"
Me: "Good point, here I go..."


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

trulede said:


> I was surprised by how much faster the XC bike was, but not that it was faster.


I wasn't. Take a hypothetical scenario where you can complete an up and down loop on a given bike in 20 minutes with the riding time split 15 minutes up and 5 minutes down. If you then have the option of a bike that will be A. 10% faster up but 10% slower down, B. 10% faster down but 10% slower up then on bike A your time drops to 19 minutes, but on bike B it increases to 21 minutes.

You'd have to find a bike that could get you down the trail 50% quicker in order to claw back the time lost climbing 10% slower.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Jayem said:


> Not only that, but the XC bike retains it's advantage on mild to moderate DHs, it's still faster.


Unless there's a significant amount of pedaling or there's some sort weird scenario like the course being too tight for the enduro, I mostly disagree. The enduro bike will have more traction and allow the rider to focus on the bigger picture. There's a local flow trail that is mellow enough to ride on my DJ but I'm faster on my enduro bike than my 120mm bike. There's just no advantage to using the smaller bike. The lighter weight isn't enough to make up for the better traction. It's not because I suck either, I have the KOM on that trail. I do recognize that weight can start to become a disadvantage downhill but an enduro bike with the appropriate tires for the terrain will beat an XC bike downhill most of the time.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> Unless there's a significant amount of pedaling or there's some sort weird scenario like the course being too tight for the enduro, I mostly disagree. The enduro bike will have more traction and allow the rider to focus on the bigger picture. There's a local flow trail that is mellow enough to ride on my DJ but I'm faster on my enduro bike than my 120mm bike. There's just no advantage to using the smaller bike. The lighter weight isn't enough to make up for the better traction. It's not because I suck either, I have the KOM on that trail. I do recognize that weight can start to become a disadvantage downhill but an enduro bike with the appropriate tires for the terrain will beat an XC bike downhill most of the time.


I've done way too much racing in both formats to know you can pedal an XC bike faster on a slight to moderate downhill. Yeah, there's a few times where you can go faster on an enduro bike over a rock or something, but it doesn't add up to saving enough time to beat-out the short travel faster/lighter bike. And the other idea, since I've been racing both formats competitively for a long time, elite and expert XC racers take their XC bikes down the same downhills faster than intermediate guys on trail/enduro bikes, even when the intermediate guys are flat out. Those same elites will chose some ridiculously short-travel bikes for a lot of enduro races, again because it takes a much nastier course/trail than most people think. Most everyone thinks they are fast. Most everyone thinks they ride tough trails. The reality is different much of the time (it's relative, more than anything else). There's a lot more to it than "an enduro bike is faster DH". In a lot of cases, they are not IME.


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## stiingya (Apr 30, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Not only that, but the XC bike retains it's advantage on mild to moderate DHs, it's still faster.


Out of curiosity, where did it say that in the vid? Thanks!

I thought they just something like the DH bike was faster on the downs, but that was only a 15 second difference. The XC bike was faster on the ups, but that was a ~3min difference. Which is due to the amount of time climbing VS the amount of time descending.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

chiefsilverback said:


> The total course distance was 4.9 miles, with over 1000' of climbing and he did it twice, so nearly 10 miles and 2100' in a total time of 75 minutes. I don't know you or have any idea what level of rider you are, you state "intermediate" in your post, but I'd suggest there's some wishful thinking going on if you think you're anywhere near as fast as this guy, definitely up and especially down.


So at an XC race, the numbers on the xc bike aren't fast.
On the XC bike his avg mph was 7.98
On the Enduro bike his avg mph was 7.42

I'm a mid pack Cat 2 xc racer riding trail bikes, I'm definitely _not fast_. My most recent race was 18mi/2600' with a time of 1:33:44 (11.5mph). The winner in my 40-49 men category did 14.03mph avg. The fastest Cat 2 rider did 15.17mph on this 18mi course.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Overall I agree that faster tires (really it's 80% in the tires) are faster overall, but just often less fun.

But this particular review was heavily skewed towards the XC HT because it was a dirt road climb (as opposed to a chunky single track climb) and a rather mellow descent.

And STILL, after a 40 minute ride the bike that was miserable on the descents was only 2 minutes faster.

Would have liked to have seen the wheels/ tires swapped between the 2 bikes and retimed.

For that particular trail any good DC bike with a shock lockout would hit a great balance between efficiency and confident descending. That said, I'm a proponent of e-bikes on 1 way trails so that would be the ultimate solution.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Jayem said:


> I've done way too much racing in both formats to know you can pedal an XC bike faster on a slight to moderate downhill. Yeah, there's a few times where you can go faster on an enduro bike over a rock or something, but it doesn't add up to saving enough time to beat-out the short travel faster/lighter bike. And the other idea, since I've been racing both formats competitively for a long time, elite and expert XC racers take their XC bikes down the same downhills faster than intermediate guys on trail/enduro bikes, even when the intermediate guys are flat out. Those same elites will chose some ridiculously short-travel bikes for a lot of enduro races, again because it takes a much nastier course/trail than most people think. Most everyone thinks they are fast. Most everyone thinks they ride tough trails. The reality is different much of the time (it's relative, more than anything else). There's a lot more to it than "an enduro bike is faster DH". In a lot of cases, they are not IME.


I addressed the pedaling aspect. I'm not talking about descents with significant pedaling.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

abeckstead said:


> So at an XC race, the numbers on the xc bike aren't fast.
> On the XC bike his avg mph was 7.98
> On the Enduro bike his avg mph was 7.42
> 
> I'm a mid pack Cat 2 xc racer riding trail bikes, I'm definitely _not fast_. My most recent race was 18mi/2600' with a time of 1:33:44 (11.5mph). The winner in my 40-49 men category did 14.03mph avg. The fastest Cat 2 rider did 15.17mph on this 18mi course.


I'm curious now about how grade impacts speed? In this video his average grade over the ride was ~8.3% based on his climbs being ~350' over 0.8 miles. For the race you reference, assuming the distance is split evenly between climbing and descending, the average grade would be 5.5%...

As an additional data point there's another video featuring the same rider where he completes a continuous 0.9 mile, 1000' climb in 16:05, so that's 3.3mph on a 21% grade.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

abeckstead said:


> So at an XC race, the numbers on the xc bike aren't fast.


I have done a 2000', 6 mile climb in 40 minutes. So, yeah, I agree.

On that same ride I met a group after that to do 50 miles and 6000' at an average speed of 9 MPH, and that was a slow group.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

chiefsilverback said:


> I'm curious now about how grade impacts speed? In this video his average grade over the ride was ~8.3% based on his climbs being ~350' over 0.8 miles. For the race you reference, assuming the distance is split evenly between climbing and descending, the average grade would be 5.5%...
> 
> As an additional data point there's another video featuring the same rider where he completes a continuous 0.9 mile, 1000' climb in 16:05, so that's 3.3mph on a 21% grade.


Yeah, course difficulty/grade definitely affects speed. I've done some brutal race courses this year. My race averages are usually 9-11mph, the most recent race was arguably the easiest course this year. All I was getting at is his avg mph isn't exactly hero status or anything. The hardest race I did this year was 24mi, 4820ft in 3:11:45 for an avg of 7.5mph (I wasn't 100% going into it, bonked, cramped and had to back off my pace). Very tough constant up/down course, some of these climbs are barely rideable/hike-a-bike territory with an absolute demoralizing hill climb towards the end. The overall winner did it in 2:05.13 at 11.55mph avg.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Jayem said:


> I've done way too much racing in both formats to know you can pedal an XC bike faster on a slight to moderate downhill. Yeah, there's a few times where you can go faster on an enduro bike over a rock or something, but it doesn't add up to saving enough time to beat-out the short travel faster/lighter bike. And the other idea, since I've been racing both formats competitively for a long time, elite and expert XC racers take their XC bikes down the same downhills faster than intermediate guys on trail/enduro bikes, even when the intermediate guys are flat out. Those same elites will chose some ridiculously short-travel bikes for a lot of enduro races, again because it takes a much nastier course/trail than most people think. Most everyone thinks they are fast. Most everyone thinks they ride tough trails. The reality is different much of the time (it's relative, more than anything else). There's a lot more to it than "an enduro bike is faster DH". In a lot of cases, they are not IME.


This gets brought up from time to time. And I both agree, and disagree.

For the intermediate riders who are riding "flat out" on a trail/enduro bike, and still going slower than the experts on their XC bike, I'd say thats mostly just a sign that the expert is a significantly faster/better rider than the intermediate riders in question.

I've noticed that as I progress in skill (I've only been riding for 3 years, and I'm in the intermediate-ish area in skill), things that I needed more aggressive bikes/tires/gear for initially, have become doable with less travel/traction/etc. Which is another way of saying that its not all that surprising that expert riders could/would be faster on shorter travel bikes on certain trails.

I don't know where the crossover is for "shorter travel bikes are faster", but just saying that the type of trail where that is true, might differ from rider to rider.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

abeckstead said:


> All I was getting at is his avg mph isn't exactly hero status or anything.


You can actually look at his runs on Komoot:









Super Enduro FOD Lap | e-mountain bike ride | Komoot


Richard Payne went on an outdoor adventure with komoot! Distance: 8.30 km | Duration: 00:40 h




www.komoot.com












XC FOD Lap | mountain bike Tour | Komoot


Richard Payne went on an outdoor adventure with komoot! Distance: 8.16 km | Duration: 00:37 h




www.komoot.com





On the XC bike he was averaging 6.5mph up, and 12.5mph down, vs 5.5mph up and 16mph down on the enduro bike. It also looks like he did the enduro run first.

I'm curious because he's a pretty fit athlete and it looks like he completed an XC race earlier in the year, 26.7 miles an 3750' in 2:25, averaging 11mph...









Mendip Murmuration XC Race | mountain bike ride | Komoot


Richard Payne went on an outdoor adventure with komoot! Distance: 42.9 km | Duration: 02:29 h




www.komoot.com


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

That's where power numbers come in handy.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Sidewalk said:


> That's where power numbers come in handy.


There's a video where he trains with a British Olympic XC racer which has some power data, but based on the 16 minute, 1000', 0.9 mile climb challenge he did that works out to be a sustained 295W output I think...


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I mean back to back on the two bikes. If you climb the XC at 300, and the enduro at 330, it isn't a fair comparison.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Sidewalk said:


> I mean back to back on the two bikes. If you climb the XC at 300, and the enduro at 330, it isn't a fair comparison.


I think he's pushing an average 210-220W on the climbs on both bikes.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

chiefsilverback said:


> You can actually look at his runs on Komoot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That sounds better... maybe he took a break? Even a month off and I'd fall so far...


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Anyone else think this thread is fated to go the direction of Bushwhacka’s thread?
We need a DANCE-OFF!


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

abeckstead said:


> That sounds better... maybe he took a break? Even a month off and I'd fall so far...


Maybe he didn't need to destroy himself to prove the differences? If one bike is 5% faster at 200W it'll be 5% faster at 300W and the same at 400W...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chiefsilverback said:


> Maybe he didn't need to destroy himself to prove the differences? If one bike is 5% faster at 200W it'll be 5% faster at 300W and the same at 400W...


No, not really. 

There’s a more or less linear relationship between w/kg and climbing speed, until you hit ~14-15mph.

I.e., double your power/mass and you go twice as fast, given the same system weight (and Crr, etc).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> No, not really.
> 
> There’s a more or less linear relationship between w/kg and climbing speed, until you hit ~14-15mph.
> 
> I.e., double your power and you go twice as fast, given the same system weight (and Crr, etc).


I was referring to the difference between the two bikes. So he rides both bikes at 200w and the XC bike is 5% faster up hill than the enduro bike, if he rides both bikes at 300w, the XC will still be 5% faster than the enduro bike, it’s just that the times to complete the climbed will be faster…


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## underblu (Aug 24, 2021)

It’s an interesting video but I’m not sure why any of this would matter unless you make a living shaving seconds.

It’s common knowledge that an XC or hard tail will pedal uphill faster than an enduro/DH bike. An enduro/dh bike will be more ”fun” and stable going downhill and in all likelihood faster.

There are also very lightweight FS XC+ bikes that might strike the ideal balance for that type of course in the video. I don’t ride anything hugely challenging and I much prefer a FS to a hardtail. I may not go with a full, long travel downhill spec but afaic, having a FS bike makes for a more enjoyable and stable ride over any terrain.

Bottom line, ride what you like.


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## lil byke (Jun 16, 2021)

Who cares how fast you go uphill honestly? As long as you are able to get your bike to the top, I would highly prefer to ride down with speed, not limping along and slowing down for rocks.


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## lil byke (Jun 16, 2021)

Come ride up and down a double black on the front range like white ranch, belcher hill and middle longhorn. I bet I could beat anyone on a hardtail up and down that on my stumpy short travel, that is if they survive at all.


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

lil byke said:


> Come ride up and down a double black on the front range like white ranch, belcher hill and middle longhorn. I bet I could beat anyone on a hardtail up and down that on my stumpy short travel, that is if they survive at all.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

lil byke said:


> Who cares how fast you go uphill honestly? As long as you are able to get your bike to the top, I would highly prefer to ride down with speed, not limping along and slowing down for rocks.


Some people like being fast in all directions. 

Some people have limited time, and want to get a lot of climbing and descending in what time they have.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

This isn’t surprising at all, and it pretty much has been covered by several members here.

People underestimate just how fast an XC bike can be ridden, especially now that they have 29” wheels. IME it takes pretty rowdy terrain to require me to “slow down” on a properly outfitted XC bike. Will it necessarily be an enjoyable descent? Probably not, and if I always pushed XC bikes like that, the odds of crashing or having mechanicals would go way up.

There’s a local loop that’s about 24 miles round trip and ends with a popular “DH” trail that is accessible from a much shorter, albeit steeper climb (that’s the way I normally do it).

Anyhow, I’ve done the larger loop on a very high-end XC hardtail (22 pound bike), and also my Honzo which is setup for much more aggressive DH riding, and weighs 32 pounds. On the entire loop, it was astounding how much faster I could go on the race bike. Probably a half hour off my fastest time on the Honzo. It was actually fun to go so fast uphill and on the flatter sections. On the DH? PR on the Honzo is 4:55, and on the 22 pound XC bike it was around 5:45– but I could shave time off that with better brakes. That bike beat the **** out of me, but I could still ride the descent respectably fast. Coincidentally, I cannot beat my Honzo time on my enduro bike; the trail isn’t steep enough. In fact, I really don’t enjoy my enduro bike on anything less than a 15% grade.

I still have a few Strava KOMs on an XC hardtail— “DH” segments that are lower angle or feature a climb or two. I cannot beat those times on my enduro bike or my Honzo, and apparently nobody else can either (I know the right person on an XC bike could, but that’s kind of the point— most people are on too much bike, a lot of the time).

It really comes down to the question— where/when do you want to have the most fun? Bikes at either end of the spectrum have merit, it just depends what you want out of the experience.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

“I’ll beat all of you up and down on a unicycle without a dropper post!!!”


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Yesterday there was a race in my county called the Sagebrush Safari; one of the local guys who doesn't race much won the 40+ (really nice guy). Official results not in yet but I think everyone was on a full-suspension bike, probably trail, like 140/130mm on average. This is designated as an XC race, but while I have not ridden these trails (yet, they are across the freeway from where I prefer to go at Mt. Laguna CA), I can clearly see on Strava from a few guys I follow that most sections are very technical. A lot of kinks and bends all over the place on the loop. So it's probably technical XC / "trail" and not really just XC. Decide for yourselves below on the description and then we'll ask how a 140mm hardtail would do:










Quick n' Dirty MTB - SAGEBRUSH SAFARI - A classic not to be missed


SAGEBRUSH SAFARI is one of the most iconic races in SoCal MTB history. Join us for two days of racing, camping, and most of all good times. %




quickndirtymtb.com





.The course will start out at the venue, just across the street from the Navy’s Camp Morena at around 3000ft. Once the gun goes off you will be sent on a 6.5 mile climb up Morena Stokes Valley Rd to 4 Corners, then up Los Pinos Rd, just near the top of Los Pinos mountain (4600ft). After you catch your breath and take in the glorious views, get your legs ready for one of the best descents Corral Canyon has to offer, Spur Meadows Trail. After roughly 4 miles of descending you will end up crossing Morena Stokes Valley Rd and on to a fun but challenging single track climb. From here you will jump on Wrangler Trail. This is the trail that makes the Sagebrush Safari as epic as it is. You will experience many types of terrain to include loose dirt, hard pack, massive rock slabs, rock gardens, punchy climbs, and flowy descents. After about 4 miles on Wrangler Trail you will reach Skye Valley Rd. and a few minutes later you will hit a section called Ranger Trail that we have extended to give you a tough yet rideable climb, up to the next section. The next section is one of the most fun fire-roads you’ll experience, Gunslinger Trail. After your done having fun on Gunslinger you’ll reach Morena Stokes Valley Rd and for the final time make your way back up to 4 corners. Once you reach 4 corners you can start thinking about cracking open that tasty beer (or favorite non-alcoholic beverage) and jump right on to Kernan Cycle trail. Kernan is the final descent back down to the paved road. Once on the paved road you’re roughly 2 fast miles to the finish line.

Here's the question: if one of the riders, who of course would need to ride a hardtail regularly before the race, took a 120-140mm HT here, 23 lbs 120mm maybe 24-25 lbs 140mm, had firm lockout for the climbs, could they compete? Could they place or even win? The Strava segments are slightly different than above:

Kernan to the top of Pinos: 4.67 mi, 6.2% 28:13. HT let's say compared to trail FS 3% faster uphill +49 seconds
Spur Meadow Descent: 2.92 mi -4.7% 10:14. For simplicity, every -1% is roughly 1% slower for HT, so -31 seconds
Campground to 4 Corners - part 1: 0.84 mi 4.8% 5:08. HT 3% advantage +9 seconds
Wrangler Her Down 2.21 mi 0% 12:30. Let's call this a tie on time.
Fire road decent 0.61 mi -5.5% 1:45. HT let's say again 6% slower or -6 seconds
Who rides this? 2.41 mi 2.1% 16:24. For that grade HT say only 1% faster or +10 seconds
Forest Route 17 S04 Climb 0.88 mi 6.6% 7:34. HT 3% advantage or +14 seconds
Asphalt climb out to finish 3:02 mi 2.3% 15:02. HT maybe 1% faster or +9 seconds
Morena Stokes Valley Rd Climb 1.22 mi 4.1% 6:51 HT 2% advantage or +7 seconds
Asphalt Climb from Cat 1 Loop 1.17 mi 5.0% 6:27 HT 3% advantage or +10 seconds
Matterhorn Bobsleds 0.94 mi -6.1% 3:39 HT 6% slower -13 seconds
Sagebrush Safari 2003 DH course 2.24 mi -6.2% 8:47 HT 6% slower -31 seconds
Final push home to Sagebrush safari 1.85 mi -0.3% 5:36 Tie, maybe HT 1% slower or - 3 seconds

Total loop distance 26.71 mi. Strava segment distance total 24.98 mi or 93.5% of total loop distance.

HT faster total 108 seconds. HT slower total 84 seconds. *Theoretical hardtail finish time is +24 seconds. *
I gave the FS bike a 1% descent speed advantage for every -1% grade, rounded up or down to whole %.
I gave the HT bike only a 0.5% climbing speed advantage for every +1% grade, rounded to whole %.

If everything were equal out there, with a constant mph throughout the loop, the HT would by definition lose by 0.5% on time, because I'm giving the HT 1/2 the time advantage on climbs and full disadvantage on descents. But everything is not equal out there. Remember climbs take longer than descents so that skews the time advantage...and the win, to the hardtail. 

Realistic or not?


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I wouldn't read too much into the results. Everyone things their XC race is more tech then everyone else's. I haven't done that race yet, I forgot about it until a couple days ago, maybe next year.

The overall winner (national level Pro, though out of shape) raced a Supercal vs his Top Fuel. Another guy I know finished about 20 seconds ahead of your friend and chose his Epic hardtail vs his Norco Revolver. Both people I know that raced it both chose the less suspension option. One has raced it before (not sure about THIS course), the other pre rode the course.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I rode the Austin GB (it's proper chunky much of the time) with 2 quite fast XC racing guys on my Spur this past weekend and I simply would not have been able to keep up on my SJ Evo, such is the difference in rolling resistance/ weight.

That said, much of the time it wasn't as fun and at one moment it definitely wasn't as safe either being on the Spur.


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