# I'm getting sick of dealing with tubeless



## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

I'm starting to think tubeless is more trouble than it's worth, I keep losing air and it's becoming a pain. I dunked the tire in a tank to find the leaks and the sidewalls are loaded with tiny pin holes around the tire. The bike store said this is normal and more sealant was needed...added more sealant. I'm not confident.

The guy at the bike store said, yeah it's a pain. Pretty soon I'll have so much sealant in there that my wheels will weigh ten pounds. 

I'm thinking of going back to tubes, I've only had one pinch flat in my life and I run the pressures low enough. I actually think the tubes protect the rims a little bit...gives it one more layer of something to ease the impacts down a bit.


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## zyzbot (Dec 19, 2003)

Yup.


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## root (Jan 24, 2006)

Some tires are better than others. While I like the traction performance of my Schwalbe Hans Dampfs, they have thin sidewalls that wear out pretty fast. This time around I got the cheap non tubeless ready and they pinhole leak sealant pretty much out of the box. The tubeless ready Conti I'm running on front is rock solid.


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## rth009 (May 20, 2010)

after you added the sealant, did you rest the tire on each side for a good long while so that the sealant could fill in those tiny holes? Stans recommends to set them on each side on a bucket so that its flat to give the sidewalls time to seal. You may just have the wrong tires to do this, but I wouldn't give up on tubeless. Many have been using sealant for years on all kinds of tires with no issues. good luck


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

You're doing something wrong. Tubeless has proven to be a lot less trouble for lotsa folks.

4-5 ozs per tire in the right kind of tire (29"), air up, spin sealant around a few minutes and I go ride. Never pinch flat again.

Even tires with tubes lose air.


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## Redeyes (Dec 24, 2012)

I modified my older bike using Stan's system and it is a little bit of a pain. My new bike has tubeless ready rims and tires and it is pretty slick. No problems at all. My advise, don't modify older non-tubeless setups. When it is time to upgrade or replace, go tubeless. 


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Come back to the dark side. Tubes, run em until the cows come home. That's what I've been doing all these years. The cows still haven't made their way home yet.

I have a feeling they're just hanging out talking smack about me behind my back.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Glide the Clyde said:


> You're doing something wrong. Tubeless has proven to be a lot less trouble for lotsa folks.
> 
> 4-5 ozs per tire in the right kind of tire (29"), air up, spin sealant around a few minutes and I go ride. Never pinch flat again.
> 
> Even tires with tubes lose air.


This, OP if you have not already watch the videos on stan's etc websites and follow every step, especially when dealing with new tires.

I had good experience with the type of Hans Dampf I am using,
Michelin Wild Grip had pin holes all over the sidewalls.
But all good after following the steps, there is defiantly a learning curve but I do not see myself going back to tubes again.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Maxxis tires. That's your answer. Never had a problem in years. 


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## hey_poolboy (Jul 16, 2012)

Been running maxxis for a while. TR EXO (because I'm not a weight weenie) only time I've ever had a problem is in the nasty razor rocks @ BT Epic.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Yup....gonna go with user error on this. Done right it is not a problem. Done incorrectly....it is a problem.


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## pcmark (Jul 10, 2010)

I too find tubeless less maintenance free than I'd like. The only tires that have been trouble free for me were true UST tires, which are much heavier than 'tubeless ready' tires. I'm constantly having to add more sealant to my tires. I changed to Orange Seal per the lbs recommendation, but it's no better than Stans in my experience.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I am no expert but this is what I have found can promote long lasting tubless seal, worry free.

use a new tires, and ones where sidewallas can withstand stans sealant
Use a TLR rim that gets good reviews
Use stan's, it is horrific messy but it works
Use an air compressor
Patience and beer during setup

Ongoing use, get the Stan's refill kit with the gigantic syringe to make life easy, also get the valve core remover it just makes everythign so easy
Frequently add Stan's, i get away with once evry 6 months
Don't change the tire until the tire is worn out

Don't over inflate, you don't want a Stan's explosion near you, even if outside riding when it happens, it is amazing how that stuff gets everywhere and won't come off.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Oh yeah, my High Roller 2 tires have been flawless. Just over a year, added stan's twice with the mega-syringe, takes 10 minutes, and tires have never come loose. Maxxis has come up with a great fitting tire and one that holds up to Stan's


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

The bike was bought new, came tubeless. The tires are Maxxis and the rims support tubeless. It was fine for about 10 rides, then it was completely flat one day. Refilled it with air, lose a little air each ride and refill every other ride or so as necessary. Dunked it in a tank...tiny air holes on the sidewalls all over the place. Friend's bike did the exact same thing - he bought his from a different shop - and today I added four more ounces of stan's sealant. The guy at the bike store (the owner of the shop), said they're a bit of a pain in the ass.
Sounds like many have had excellent success with them so I'll give it some more time before going back to tubes, but I'm very skeptical at this point hat he sealant is going to do the trick.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Are the Maxxis tires the EXO version?


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Tubes :FTW:

-----------------------------------------------------------
'Yes! I'm an opinionated Mofo... Next question'.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Doublebase said:


> The bike was bought new, came tubeless. The tires are Maxxis and the rims support tubeless. It was fine for about 10 rides, then it was completely flat one day. Refilled it with air, lose a little air each ride and refill every other ride or so as necessary. Dunked it in a tank...tiny air holes on the sidewalls all over the place. Friend's bike did the exact same thing - he bought his from a different shop - and today I added four more ounces of stan's sealant. The guy at the bike store (the owner of the shop), said they're a bit of a pain in the ass.
> Sounds like many have had excellent success with them so I'll give it some more time before going back to tubes, but I'm very skeptical at this point hat he sealant is going to do the trick.


Are your tires TLR's? I haven't had any issues with TLR type tires sealing until the sealant dries up.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

net wurker said:


> Are the Maxxis tires the EXO version?


Yes they come stock on the Santa Cruz 5010, with the wtb rims.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Bummer, Inhave the the Wtb, i think i23, and it has been flawless. You shouldn't be experiencing those kinds of issues


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

Tubeless definitely has pros and cons. 
Here in the Mojave tubeless and something like Stans can be a miracle against small punctures like Cholla Thorns laying around. 
I ride in an area with almost no cacti but lots of rock tears happen, so I prefer to not mess with Stans and be able to do a boot on the tires and use tubes. 

One of the myths is using lower pressures. I've noticed that Tubeless users frequently "burp" the bead and lose air anyways, especially on off camber rocky terrain and or flat spot their rims. 
Tubeless may make you immune to pinch flats at low pressures, but the tire will still bottom harshly on the rim and probably make a small dent. 

It's times like this, I wish Sheldon Brown was still around to counter the ad hype and myths.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Doublebase said:


> I've only had one pinch flat in my life and I run the pressures low enough.


I think that's what it really comes down to.

I get maybe one flat per year running 20ish psi.

I ran tubeless for a year and a half across three bikes, and had to spend a bunch of time keeping them going. (That included a bunch of studded/summer tireswaps, which took like 10x longer)

Switched back to tubes a few years ago, and have never regretted it. If there were goatheads around here I'd bother with it, but as it is, meh.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I have been running Stans rims with various tires for a fears woth almost no problems. I have always been able to fill my tires with a floor pump. If yours are giving your trouble, you are doing something wrong.
A Thorn in your Sidewall: Avoid tubeless disasters


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Ericmopar said:


> One of the myths is using lower pressures. I've noticed that Tubeless users frequently "burp" the bead and lose air anyways, especially on off camber rocky terrain and or flat spot their rims.
> Tubeless may make you immune to pinch flats at low pressures, but the tire will still bottom harshly on the rim and probably make a small dent.
> 
> It's times like this, I wish Sheldon Brown was still around to counter the ad hype and myths.


I think it depends on riding style & terrain, there are applications where it's possible & beneficial to go with lower pressure in tubeless setups. For instance, low speed rock gardens in wet conditions, you get better traction and impacts which may pinch flat a tube generally won't kill a tubeless tire, plus the side loads usually aren't high enough to burp a tire or yank it off the rim. On the other hand, riders who slide sideways into ruts while cornering at ludicrous speed will often need to run more pressure in their tubeless tires compared to using tubes. Sliding into ruts at high speed puts a massive side load on the tires and rips them off the rim if there's not enough air in them. With tubes, the tire will reseat itself if it isn't yanked off completely, with tubeless you'll probably lose enough air that it either doesn't seat back or gets all squirmy further down the trail.

Couple more things. Tubeless will not make you immune to pinch flats, you can still get the tubeless pinch flat where the rim punches a hole right through the sidewall & tread of a tire. And you can still explode a tire off the rim if you hit something hard enough in the wrong way, been there, done that, not fun.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I always have and always will run tubes. A riding friend of mine has always given me a hard
time for not going tubeless. Well the other day he burped a tubeless on a downhill and ate 
sh*t. Now he is having second thoughts.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

thecanoe said:


> Maxxis tires. That's your answer. Never had a problem in years.


Tragically this. Even my silly Maxxis Aspen's have held air better than most reported experiences with even the Snakeskin/Supergravity casings from a different manufacturer. That's not to say the don't require some air occasionally, but I never lose more than a couple psi per week.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

I'll never use tubes again. Running tubeless can be a learning process. Different tires and different wheels may yield different results. 

Correct air pressure is important - more with some tires than others, though. Running air pressure too low can cause burps around the bead, breaking the seal. Checking tire pressure before each ride is a good habit. With thin walled tires (usually lighter weight; may be labeled as "race" tires) it is very important not to run pressure too low. The side wall is more likely to "fold" or "roll" laterally, resulting in burping. The burp may not be enough for you to hear or feel it, but the seal has broken just the same, allowing more air to escape, and intensifying the problem (lower pressure, more likely to have more and bigger burps). 

Use UST or "tubeless ready" tires when possible. Different manufacturers have their own proprietary version of "tubeless ready" tires. For instance Maxxis designates some tires as TR (tubeless ready), Specialized calls their tubeless ready tires "2 Bliss". UST and all "tubeless ready" tires have a higher thread count and or use a different compound than non tubeless/non UST tires that prevent air from escaping. 

Having the rim bed taped well is important. I use gorilla tape on wheels I have to tape. Some tubeless ready wheels will come taped well enough so that you don't need to tape it.

Often problems with tubeless systems are the result of low pressure. Things that can cause low pressure:
Not checking pressure regularly(Running too low pressure to start with)
Non UST/Tubeless Ready tires
insufficient rim taping
Valve stem not secured correctly (tape over valve hole, cut two 1/4 slits in tape over valve hole to make a cross, stick valve stem in). Tighten round nut securely.
Soapy water in a spray bottle works well for identifying leak areas - don't forget to check nipples also.

Every time there is a air leak in the tire/wheel your sealant will need to address it. If you are finding you are having to replace sealant very frequently because it all dries up, then there are leaks. If there are no leaks and you are using UST/Tubeless Ready tires, then maybe low pressure is causing the bead seal to constantly break and become resealed - which has the same effect as a leak (air hits sealant, sealant dries to seal leak, more sealant was used).

I'm currently running a Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO TR in front and a Specialized Butcher SX (not control version which has thinner side wall) 2.3 in back. Both of these have thick side walls. I run 21 psi. in front and 22 psi. in back. I can run this low pressure with these thick side wall tires. I have run thinner side wall tires such as a Spec. Control in Front and Spec. Captain Control in rear and had to run 24-26 in front and around 28 in rear to prevent burps. Just to stress again, it's very important not to run pressure too low.

Mounting your tires yourself helps to understand the process and how the whole thing works, making it much easier to trouble shoot problems. If you don't have one, get a decent, basic air compressor. It will pay for itself eventually in more ways than one. Follow instructions on Stans website. I had issues when I first started with tubeless. Learn to do it yourself, at some point everything will click and problems will be gone. Now I can go for months without checking sealant, and there is usually still a lot of liquid left. Again, make sure no leaks, tubeless tires helps, no too low pressure.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

For me I prefer tubes. Not saying tubeless is bad and I can see the point, but all the hassle of setting up and maintaining tubeless - which I know isn't a hassle to people that like running them - but for me, the goop, the soapy water the this and the that and apparently not doing it right if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you... well I'm perfectly happy with tubes, and for me its less hassle if i had to change 10 tubes than doing the tubeless set up just once.
Now that just me, i prefer tubes. Have had 2 sets tubeless, first set i gave up on and went back to tubes, and my current set (came on new bike) as soon as the goop dries out or the current tyres wear out a bit, will be changing to a tyre I prefer, tubes included.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Tubeless is not new technology as some seem to think. It's been around for at least 15 years and tubes since the beginning of bicycles. Both do the job and do it well. In my opinion it's a matter of choice or preference. I have ran tubes since day one. Have I thought about switching to tubeless? Yes on occasion for a split second but it's never really been high on my list of upgrades. After watching riders around me dealing with the goopy mess over the years it's become less and less of an upgrade desire. The beauty of this sport is with each passing year we are given more and more options in frames,components,wheel size frame material geometry etc etc etc...The freedom of choice and nobody can say or tell you what's the best choice for you.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

First, nothing wrong with tubes. Worked for me for a long time. Flats are easy to fix. Typically the folks having issues with tubeless are not running optimal tire and rim combos, are having tape issues, just plane aren't into tinkering with their bikes, or are running too low of pressures. Tubeless has been set and forget for me. I refresh sealant every few months and don't ride crazy low pressures. I use TLR rims and tires. I inflate my tires each ride...I did this with tubes as well. No flats. Love tubeless and can't imagine going back on my mtb. Road..happy to run tubes. CX..just converted using a more ghetto setup. An air compressor makes tubeless care so much easier. Never really had a "goopy mess".

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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Don't have problems with tubeless. Only thing I do is add some Stan's every few months.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Lots of great responses on here, learned a lot. Obviously a lot of experience on the thread and a few bike mechanics. 

Just by reading about tubeless setups I think it's fair to say...it has its benefits and it has its drawbacks. Also for all the posts that said "you did something wrong during the setup", I think I covered that portion of it - the bike came tubeless...you can't buy this bike with tubes, the shop owner himself built the bike and did the tubeless setup. I then two months later (after dealing with small leaks and pressure loss), went back to the shop where I was told...it's normal, they are a bit of a pain in the ass, you'll have to add 4 ounces of stand tire sealant. Which I did yesterday, so I'll see how that goes. Again, I'm not real confident.

So I do understand the benefits...lower pressures, better traction in wet conditions. I'm also seeing the disadvantages...sidewall leaks that will have to be sealed with more sealant, burps which will release air occasionally and hopefully not enough where I'll be walking the bike out of the trail, the tires can rollover on the bead during sliding over roots/obstacles (I've felt that before).

Right now I'm going to stick with the tubeless for a couple reasons...one, I just added more sealant, two, the season is almost over for me, three, I can only imagine how much junk is smeared all over the inside of my tire and rim at this point, and four, hey everyone is doing it.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

nothing against your lbs and I obviously do not know them but just because it has been done in a shop does not mean it has been done right.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> ...sidewall leaks that will have to be sealed with more sealant, burps which will release air occasionally...


Few are the tubeless setups which will hold air infinitely. Many are the setups which will run all day long. Too low of air pressure will ruin any wheel and tire - tubeless or not. Just be realistic in regards to your tire pressure.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Pgreat information and experience shared in this thread. One of my bikes is tubeless and it has been flawless. I do not run reLly low pressures, concerned about front tire coming off in cornering. So i run 23-24 in front and 25 in back, for tires rated at 30 psi. It has been a real treat no longer dealing with thorn or pinch flats, which were common for me.

My other bike is still on tubes, despite tubeless ready wheels. The wheels came from an even older bike that was tubeless and that became a problem due to neglect. Having a burp once on the trail for me was enough to never wan to mess with tubeless again. It was an hour to change and the mess was insane. I still get flats onthat bike but the flats are much easier to deal with that astan's setup that burps on the trail, which is a nightmare.

I also had a stan's setup blow off the tire, explosion, while ridng, luckily in front of house and not on trail. If on trail, probably a trip to the hospital if at the wrng place. I had that setup art 33psi to help with making the seal, quite a risk.

True UST with some salant for insurance migt be th best approach. I have never tried it and the stan's appoa h, due to low cost, seems to have won the market. If you are really pushing he limits of your tires, which I do not, probably better off using tubes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I should have read the OP more cloesly. You have no idea what was done during the initial setup. Time to start over. Remove the tires. Look at the tape..may have shifted or just not been put on well. Stan's yellow tape is $14 for a roll..redo it..its cheap. Make sure the valve stems are seated well. Both of these are prime contributers to leaks. Remove as much of the old sealant as possible. Use 1.5 to 2 scoops of fresh sealant following the videos on the Stan's site.

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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> he bike came tubeless...you can't buy this bike with tubes, the shop owner himself built the bike and did the tubeless setup.


to the best of my knowledge, NO bike comes out of the box without tubes in the tires. I could be wrong, or the shop guy is full of it, or you misunderstood them. I would like to see the specific bike that comes set up tubeless out of the box. many bikes come with tubeless ready tires and rims these days, but a lot of "professional" bike shop mechanics do no know how to set up a tubeless tire effectively. they many think they know what they are doing, but because bicycle mechanics have very few professional organizations giving them training and certification, you never know the difference between a good mechanic and a hack who is confident in his skills.

example: a guy once brought in his bike after traveling from another city where a bike shop's mechanic has just done a "tubeless conversion." it had gone completely flat in an hour or two. upon inspection, I found that the "mechanic" had taped the rim with Velox cloth tape and shot some Stan's sealant in the tire. cloth tape!

what SPECIFIC rims and tires do you have? some rims require a special strip (Bontrager, DT Swiss) to make them truly tubeless. have you inspected the tape job yourself? sometimes a good tape job goes bad when the tape shifts on the rim. sometimes the tape does not stay down, which is why I usually install a tire and tube on the time and let it sit there with constant pressure on the tape.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> So I do understand the benefits...lower pressures, better traction in wet conditions.


You forgot the #1 advantage, less flat tires. If flat tires were never a problem for you before I'd just stick with tubes and call it done. I didn't flat much when I ran tubes but it's nice getting even less now.

It seems to me that if you got some decent TR tires you would have no problems though.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> You forgot the #1 advantage, less flat tires. If flat tires were never a problem for you before I'd just stick with tubes and call it done. I didn't flat much when I ran tubes but it's nice getting even less now.
> 
> It seems to me that if you got some decent TR tires you would have no problems though.


Yep...everyone gets a stiffy for lower pressures, but you can run lower pressures with tubes too (although I understand pinch flatting may be more common). Flats...its all about NO flats. And don't forget lighter weight (yes...it is lighter with a true TLR setup vs. tubes).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

After running tubeless for awhile and learning that the fix for any issues I had on the trail was to put a tube in so I could ride out rather than walk, I figured I'd cut out the (more expensive and higher maintenance) middleman. Sometimes simpler is better.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Doublebase said:


> The bike was bought new, came tubeless. The tires are Maxxis and the rims support tubeless. It was fine for about 10 rides, then it was completely flat one day. Refilled it with air, lose a little air each ride and refill every other ride or so as necessary. Dunked it in a tank...tiny air holes on the sidewalls all over the place. Friend's bike did the exact same thing - he bought his from a different shop - and today I added four more ounces of stan's sealant. The guy at the bike store (the owner of the shop), said they're a bit of a pain in the ass.
> Sounds like many have had excellent success with them so I'll give it some more time before going back to tubes, but I'm very skeptical at this point hat he sealant is going to do the trick.


The tiny air holes in the sidewalls thing... those Maxxis tires you have most likely are not TR (tubeless ready). Otherwise they have become worn by brushing against roots and rocks or something. But most bikes will come with lighter weight, thinner sidewall tires too. Running pressure too low will also put stress on sidewalls as they can fold and roll during riding. But I would bet they are not tubeless ready - Maxxis tires should have a TR designation on the sidewall somewhere. Most of Maxxis's tires are not TR. Within each model of their tires there is usually a TR option, but most versions of each model will not be TR, or UST. Check the Maxxis website to see which tires are TR, and just buy those from now on, or other manufacturer's tires that are tubeless ready. TR or UST tires will prevent the air leaking from the sidewalls, unless there is an abrasion or wear bad enough to cause a hole(s).

But if you do your own tubeless setup, you will learn how to identify problems and correct them - it's really hard to do that if someone else is setting them up for you. I had some burping and other issues when I first started using tubeless, but I saw the benefit and stuck with it. Now I never have any problems with it.

Checking and adjusting tire pressure (if necessary) before every ride will prevent a lot of issues. Slow leaks in a tubeless system aren't really a problem, especially if you don't let the sealant completely dry up. Faster leaks can definitely be a problem because with lower pressures burps become more likely, resulting in lower pressure, resulting in bigger and likelier burps, etc... If you check your pressure and it's fine and then go out and ride and lose 4 lbs. or more or so, then you may be at risk of having a burp. Consider buying tires that have thicker sidewalls like Maxxis tires that have EXO protection and other sidewall puncture protection technology even though they will be a little heavier than thin sidewall tires. They will be much less likely to roll, fold, and burp, and get abrasions that can lead to leaks. Although thinner sidewalls tubeless ready tires are fine, you will just not be able to get away with small leaks and lower pressures as much as with thicker sidewall tires.

I was at a downhill park one day and could feel that my pressure had become too low in the rear but apparently I was too lazy to stop and check it. After a few runs I finally took a break and checked it. It was at 12 psi. and I was riding pretty fast and aggressive. I never could have gotten away with that on a thinner sidewall tire. Downhill tires naturally have much thicker sidewalls - not that you need to run downhill tires, but just saying this to show how much more you can get away with running a tire that has a thicker sidewall. There are many tires that have thicker than normal sidewalls that are designated for XC, AM, and everything in between. Tubeless ready and a thicker puncture proof sidewall should definitely eliminate your problem of tiny leaking holes in the sidewalls.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> You forgot the #1 advantage, less flat tires. If flat tires were never a problem for you before I'd just stick with tubes and call it done. I didn't flat much when I ran tubes but it's nice getting even less now.
> 
> It seems to me that if you got some decent TR tires you would have no problems though.


I agree. Too many goat head thorns around here to make running tubes practical. I tried Slime tubes. Too heavy. Huge weight difference that I could feel while riding when I switched to tubeless.

I went with Shimano tubeless UST style wheels and TLR tires. No rimstrips needed and a UST bead to keep the tire from burping air.


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## Priit (Oct 22, 2013)

For racing instead of tubeless I've went with latex tubes. The rolling resistance is basically the same. Unfortunately I don't have 3 sets of high end wheels with different tyres on, all set up tubeless. Instead I've just one carbon wheelset with latex tubes and swapping tyres for different courses or weather is 5 minute job. Latex tubes are also more puncture resistant than butyl ones. Only small downside is that you must inflate them prior to every ride but before the race one must check air pressure anyways.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

pb123hou said:


> The tiny air holes in the sidewalls thing... those Maxxis tires you have most likely are not TR (tubeless ready). Otherwise they have become worn by brushing against roots and rocks or something. But most bikes will come with lighter weight, thinner sidewall tires too. Running pressure too low will also put stress on sidewalls as they can fold and roll during riding. But I would bet they are not tubeless ready - Maxxis tires should have a TR designation on the sidewall somewhere. Most of Maxxis's tires are not TR. Within each model of their tires there is usually a TR option, but most versions of each model will not be TR, or UST. Check the Maxxis website to see which tires are TR, and just buy those from now on, or other manufacturer's tires that are tubeless ready. TR or UST tires will prevent the air leaking from the sidewalls, unless there is an abrasion or wear bad enough to cause a hole(s).
> 
> But if you do your own tubeless setup, you will learn how to identify problems and correct them - it's really hard to do that if someone else is setting them up for you. I had some burping and other issues when I first started using tubeless, but I saw the benefit and stuck with it. Now I never have any problems with it.
> 
> ...


They are without question tubeless ready (tr) EXO Maxxis tires.

The leak is coming from th sidewall only, not around the rim, spokes, valve stem, nipple, cap...just th sidewalls. Happened to a friend of mine as well - same tires, same bike - purchased it from a different shop.

My pressure is in the 26-28 pound range. The leaks are slow.

And the Santa Cruz 5010 only comes tubeless, I imagine the Bronson and Nomad come the same way now.

So I would say...yeah the owner of the shop didn't know how to set it up, but it's not leak inform the spots where it would be a setup issue. And it also happened to my friends bike. The terrain we ride on is technical New England single track. Ran into a guy yesterday that said it's totally normal and just keep dumping the Stans in, so that's where I'm at right now...just dumping more in.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I have tubeless ready Maxxis 3C DHR 2s tubeless ready and have had no problems at all. I haven't used tubes for years, and aside from easier initial setup tubes have no advantages over none. 1.5-2 scoops of Stan's should be more than enough to seal the sidewalls. Maybe the sealant wasn't shaken (not stirred) enough?

I've been riding with my current crew for over 2 years and I have lost track of how many flats we've had. Very few of them are tubeless and they pinch plat frequently. I've burped air once, and just pumped it back up. Seriously considering throwing a tubeless party so we don't have to stop and fix flats so often.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Doublebase said:


> They are without question tubeless ready (tr) EXO Maxxis tires.
> 
> The leak is coming from th sidewall only, not around the rim, spokes, valve stem, nipple, cap...just th sidewalls. Happened to a friend of mine as well - same tires, same bike - purchased it from a different shop.
> 
> ...


Then I would say there is some kind of defect or problem with those tires... If you are sure there isn't any spots with excessive wear/abrasion on the sidewall. If the tread is still good I think it should be a warranty issue. You might call Maxxis and ask. I called before and had to leave a message but they called me back and were very helpful with questions I had.

Maybe not the fault of the guy at the shop that did the set up, but still I don't think I would have confidence in his knowledge/experience at this point. Learn to do It yourself and you will learn how to avoid, troubleshoot, and fix problems in the process. I did have with tubeless issues initially, but haven't had any problem in several years now and the last time I had a flat was over a year ago when I ripped a hole in the sidewall on a sharp rock.

To put more Stans in, Stans has an "injector" that allows you to put sealant in without removing the tire, through the valve stem. Another benefit is you don't have to break the bead seal. You just need a valve core removal tool they also sell, and stems with removeable cores (most are).

Here is some sealant that works real well and cheaper than Stans. Some reviews say it's better because it has larger particles in it. I'm almost finished with one bottle and I'm about to buy another one. It works great.
TruckerCo High Performance Cream Tubeless Tire Sealant 1 liter
http://www.amazon.com/TruckerCo-Per...6402947&sr=8-43&keywords=bicycle+tire+sealant


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## Dirk Ross (Jun 13, 2014)

rth009 said:


> *after you added the sealant, did you rest the tire on each side for a good long while so that the sealant could fill in those tiny holes? * Stans recommends to set them on each side on a bucket so that its flat to give the sidewalls time to seal. You may just have the wrong tires to do this, but I wouldn't give up on tubeless. Many have been using sealant for years on all kinds of tires with no issues. good luck


I have a Conti Trail King tire that wasn't holding air. I did this for several days and it stopped leaking. I've mounted a few of these tires on my bikes with Stan's and only had leak problems with this one tire.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Just FYI.....TR is not the same as UST. UST has the special bead AND sidewalls that are made for sealing air without the need to run sealant.

TR just means it has the special bead. The sidewall doesn't have the extra layer that makes them where you can run without sealant. If you are experiencing leaky sidewalls, you may want to try a UST tire. However, if you run tubes and rarely get flats, I see no benefit of trying to go tubeless.

I have been running Maxxis with the EXO sidewalls (EXO has nothing to do about being tubeless, BTW). Honestly, I think I could run these things without sealant, though, they just flat out don't seep air. But we have thorns almost year round, so I need the sealant.

I gave up having flats once I finally went tubeless. I have no desire to go back to having flats all the time.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> They are without question tubeless ready (tr) EXO Maxxis tires.
> 
> The leak is coming from th sidewall only, not around the rim, spokes, valve stem, nipple, cap...just th sidewalls. Happened to a friend of mine as well - same tires, same bike - purchased it from a different shop.
> 
> ...


What rate to your tires leak down? Mine loose ~5-8psi over a week. Totally normal. Your sealant may simply be dried up and a fresh scoop will help seal off the inside of the tires to slow the leaking. Remember, tubeless-ready tires ARE NOT AIRTIGHT like UST (same as a car-tire). TLR is just getting a bead rated to re run without a tube...that's it.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

net wurker said:


> Just FYI.....TR is not the same as UST. UST has the special bead AND sidewalls that are made for sealing air without the need to run sealant.
> 
> TR just means it has the special bead. The sidewall doesn't have the extra layer that makes them where you can run without sealant. If you are experiencing leaky sidewalls, you may want to try a UST tire. However, if you run tubes and rarely get flats, I see no benefit of trying to go tubeless.
> 
> ...


I asked Maxxis about that and they say their TR tires are also a different compound and more threads per inch so air won't leak out. Of course this is separate from EXO, which is thicker to prevent punctures from what I recall.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Yeah, EXO is just about being a tougher overall casing.

But they gave you some bad info about what TR means. Look it up yourself. 

You need UST designation for the sidewall to be certified "air-tight".


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

net wurker said:


> Yeah, EXO is just about being a tougher overall casing.
> 
> But they gave you some bad info about what TR means. Look it up yourself.
> 
> You need UST designation for the sidewall to be certified "air-tight".


They didn't use the phrase air-tight. They did say it has a different compound to prevent air from leaking compared to their non TR tires. Maxxis' TR is their proprietary designation for their tubeless ready tires. Like Specializeds' proprietary version are called 2Bliss. But they are both "tubeless ready" tires. I actually thought the bead was the only difference too but the Maxxis rep corrected me on that.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Specy's 2Bliss tires come in two different casings..the lighter one (S-Works) has 120 tpi..yes..tighter but still not air tight.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

if your Maxxis tires are leaking from the sidewall, they are defective. I have seen a lot of Schwalbe tires do that, but EXO sidewalls are tough and so incredibly thick that they should not leak like that. I have had a few EXO tires and they are 99% air tight without sealant from the moment i put them on my Stan's rims. I only use sealant to get that extra seal at the bead and for punctures, but I could ride them from day one without sealant if I wanted. you need to return the tires for ones that work.

so the bike shop owner set up your tires tubeless, but the tires came tubeless already? so what did he do? I see on Santa Cruz' website that all the 5010 bikes come set up tubeless, that's a new one to me. under all the build specs, it lists "tubes" as "Stan's Sealant." shipping a bike with Stan's in the tires sounds like a PITA. I wonder if they ship the bike with a bottle of sealant for the initial install.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

There is a short, but definite, learning curve to learning how to run tubless. Helps to have a knack for mechanics.

I've not run a tube for well over 10 years and would not even consider going back.

For rims, Stan's have been rock solid for years. Derbys are great for carbon.

Specialized tires are great, especially the Grid versions. Maxxis EXOs are also flawless. Schwalbe Snakeskins were a bit finicky at first, but once set, are good too.

Gorilla tape for the rims.

I make my own dirt cheap sealant.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Miker J said:


> There is a short, but definite, learning curve to learning how to run tubless. Helps to have a knack for mechanics.
> 
> I've not run a tube for well over 10 years and would not even consider going back.
> 
> ...


Non-welded rims have a pinned sleeve. It is directly across from the valve, and not always peened smooth. Sometimes QC slips and this can be a source for accelerated-leaking.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> if your Maxxis tires are leaking from the sidewall, they are defective. I have seen a lot of Schwalbe tires do that, but EXO sidewalls are tough and so incredibly thick that they should not leak like that. I have had a few EXO tires and they are 99% air tight without sealant from the moment i put them on my Stan's rims. I only use sealant to get that extra seal at the bead and for punctures, but I could ride them from day one without sealant if I wanted. you need to return the tires for ones that work.
> 
> so the bike shop owner set up your tires tubeless, but the tires came tubeless already? so what did he do? I see on Santa Cruz' website that all the 5010 bikes come set up tubeless, that's a new one to me. under all the build specs, it lists "tubes" as "Stan's Sealant." shipping a bike with Stan's in the tires sounds like a PITA. I wonder if they ship the bike with a bottle of sealant for the initial install.


I bought my Heckler in September 2014 from Competitive Cyclist and it arrived in the box already set up tubeless. I don't recall 100% if Santa Cruz listed it that way, but I think it was.

I don't know whether CC set it up or Santa Cruz, but it had about 12 psi in the tires. I think the check list included in the build was from CC and they set it up. In any event, it arrived that way. No issues for over a year.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

cjsb said:


> I bought my Heckler in September 2014 from Competitive Cyclist and it arrived in the box already set up tubeless. I don't recall 100% if Santa Cruz listed it that way, but I think it was.
> 
> I don't know whether CC set it up or Santa Cruz, but it had about 12 psi in the tires. I think the check list included in the build was from CC and they set it up. In any event, it arrived that way. No issues for over a year.


My understanding is that distributors/bike shops receive bikes in parts and they have to build them up. Not sure if all manufacturers do that, but I believe it's pretty common and I know for sure Specialized does. Motorcycles are the same way, at least with Honda's.


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## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

i use Slime tubes and liners. works great. i dont care if its a hair heavier. high maintenance stuff is such a pain


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I used some slime tubes on one trip to the desert. Yea they plugged thorn punctures but do nothing to prevent pinch flats. And they were heavy, noticeably heavy. Okay if you never hit anything hard.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, the bike comes packed and pre-assembled, but typically requires ~1 hour of time to get everything put together and working correctly. What we are saying is that I can't imagine a bike shipping from Asia with tires set-up tubeless. I would suspect the rims come taped, valve stems installed, and the sealant in a bottle..not sure on this though.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I did run ghetto tubeless on stock rims for a time, and it was a pain. I experienced burps and eventually blew the front tire off the rim on a hard landing. No injury but scared the crap out of me. Went back to tubes on those rims. Frankly I think if you are getting even an occasional burp, you don't have a trustworthy setup and you may be subject to the tire blowing off the rim.

I've had zero issues running various Schwalbe and Panaracer tires on Stan's Flow Ex rims. I live in Texas and would never go back to tubes because flats during a ride are a hassle. Plus the more riders in a group, the more chances of getting a flat. I have 2 riding buddies, and when we all ran tubes it was rare for us to do a long ride without at least one person getting one flat. We are all running tubeless now, and don't get flats. One less thing to worry about.

But if flats are not an issue, I see nothing wrong with running tubes.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

> Been running maxxis for a while. TR EXO


Yup, never a problem.

It's not maintenance free and setting up some tire rim combos can be an extreme pita. You have to be aware and add sealant every 3-4 months, depending the climate you live in I suppose. I keep a few bikes running tubless and would never go back to tubes on a MTB.

Besides snake bites, the cactus here will happily mess up your ride, I guess it depends where and how you ride as well. I can run lower pressures and blast through rock gardens with impunity, it's way worth the aggraavation to me.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

I've been debating tubeless. Punctures aren't a problem here, though, while impacts that could burp a tubeless tire are. I had wheels built with Arch EX rims, but due to the increased width I'm now running pressures lower than what I was pinch flatting with on the stock rims with no problems, and it's kind of killing my motivation.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Agree with someone above...if you are burping something is wrong or you are running too low of pressure. If you want a reliable tubeless setup, you need to run the right rims (TLR) and tires (TLR).


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

pb123hou said:


> Then I would say there is some kind of defect or problem with those tires... If you are sure there isn't any spots with excessive wear/abrasion on the sidewall. If the tread is still good I think it should be a warranty issue. You might call Maxxis and ask. I called before and had to leave a message but they called me back and were very helpful with questions I had.
> 
> Maybe not the fault of the guy at the shop that did the set up, but still I don't think I would have confidence in his knowledge/experience at this point. Learn to do It yourself and you will learn how to avoid, troubleshoot, and fix problems in the process. I did have with tubeless issues initially, but haven't had any problem in several years now and the last time I had a flat was over a year ago when I ripped a hole in the sidewall on a sharp rock.
> 
> ...


Maybe I will give Maxxis a call. I do have some scrapes on the sidewalls (isn't that normal for mountain biking?), but it's not like the tires are old...they are only two months old. Where I ride, you are going to scrape sidewalls on rocks, it's unavoidable, the alternative is to drive over everything,which is next to impossible. Maybe Maxxis will ship me new ones?

Thanks for the link on the sealant, looks like a good deal.


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## Reallytho (Jul 30, 2015)

I haven't had a flat tire the entire season. Quite surprising considering I ride over sharp edges all the time. I'm pretty light at 63kg and I have no problem running sub 30 psi.

Tubeless is a waste of time. More hassle than it's worth for me at least.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You still haven't answered the question....how many psi are you losing over what timeframe?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Reallytho said:


> Tubeless is a waste of time. More hassle than it's worth for me at least.


It's not a hassle at all when it's set up right. I never have to worry about flats or anything. I never do anything with my tires but check the pressure before I ride - but I also used to always check pressure pre-ride when I used tubes too.


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## Awshucks (Apr 14, 2013)

I was always indifferent to the whole tubes vs. tubeless debate until I tried high volume Maxxis Ardents with actual Stan's rims. Tires sealed easily and I haven't had an issue all season. Same with my wifes Maxxis Ikons on Stan's rims. I can run them at a low PSI and haven't worried about flats. I nearly tore a knob off the tire on a ride and I just added some C02, let the sealant do its thing, and my ride was spared! That being said my first few experiences with tubeless wre failures and very frustrating. Which caused me to go back to tubes, which was OK. Then after awhile I had a successful bout with tubeless, and then I got a new bike and did tubes for awhile. So while both certainly work, once you get a good tubeless set up going I think it definitely makes a difference. Hopefully you'll get it, good luck.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> You still haven't answered the question....how many psi are you losing over what timeframe?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


It's a slow leak, and it's different depending on the riding I do, I guess. But I might lose 3-5 pounds a ride depending on how long I go or how hard (how much my ass is in the seat). Or it also matters how many days in between rides - the tire went completely flat after the first two weeks I owned it (rear tire), the front tire loses air too, but it has an easier life, it doesn't have to deal with the weight of me as much.

I now add 3-4 pounds every time I ride, which is 4 times a week. Typically with tubes I might have to adjust my air pressure once every two weeks and it's only off a couple pounds in that time.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I live in Phoenix and have been running tubeless as long as I can remember. I don't know a single person who runs tubes in tires. That said, if you feel you don't need tubeless in your area, then put tubes in and carry on.

All in all, doesn't sound like you have an actual problem. Pretty normal to lose a few psi a day.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Reallytho said:


> I haven't had a flat tire the entire season. Quite surprising considering I ride over sharp edges all the time. I'm pretty light at 63kg and I have no problem running sub 30 psi.
> 
> Tubeless is a waste of time. More hassle than it's worth for me at least.


Tubes, for others, are more hassle than they are worth.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Miker J said:


> Tubes, for others, are more hassle than they are worth.


There's hassle with tubes and tubeless, the only difference is where the hassle occurs. Tubeless has never been, and will probably never be, as set-it-and-forget-it as tubes, what it's supposed to do is lessen pinch flats, allow lower pressures, and virtually eliminate punctures from thorns.

I'll happily check my pressure every couple days in order to not be out changing a tube on the trail.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

I run tubes and I'm happy. Get a flat? Patch it an ride on.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

With tube tyres, i haven't had a puncture in a few years (probably will tomorrow having said that though) and I check my pressures maybe once a month if I can be bothered as I'd be surprised if I loose a pound or 2 over that time, been that way for 20 odd years of mtbing.

Tubeless, yeah had a heap of issues with my first set, but i figure that was due to the goop drying out, but still have to pump up tyres every week when things are working, probably lose 1-2psi overnight. Now pumping up once or twice a week isn't really a hassle, but compared to my tube tyres...it's crap.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> It's a slow leak, and it's different depending on the riding I do, I guess. But I might lose 3-5 pounds a ride depending on how long I go or how hard (how much my ass is in the seat). Or it also matters how many days in between rides - the tire went completely flat after the first two weeks I owned it (rear tire), the front tire loses air too, but it has an easier life, it doesn't have to deal with the weight of me as much.
> 
> I now add 3-4 pounds every time I ride, which is 4 times a week. Typically with tubes I might have to adjust my air pressure once every two weeks and it's only off a couple pounds in that time.


Seems pretty normal to me to loose 5 psi between rides. Loosing air over a ride is not normal and as I said earlier, likely a tape issue.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Funny..I check my air pressure with tubes on my road bike each ride..you always loose a few. Can't imagine hoping on any of my bikes without doing that...not really a hassle.

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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Yeah I loose 10+psi overnight on my road bike, but my mtb no.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Priit said:


> Instead I've just one carbon wheelset


Really, just one set?


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

If tubeless setups are too much trouble, you can use tubes with some sealand in them. There is a small weight penalty and you will still suffer snakebites with very low pressures, but you will have decent protection against flats and the ability to change tyres depending on conditions etc.

I used this setup for years with great results, and only recently converted tubeless via the 20" sliced tube ghetto method. 

So far so good, I've only had one burp while experimenting with low psi. Landed a small jump sideways and the seal broke spreading sealant everywhere. Lost all air immediately, but there was plenty of sealant left to seal again inflating with my minipump and ride on. The tyre was a normal xc one (so I put extra sealant on installation) with thin sidewall and air pressure was very low. 

If the bike stays unridden for a few days there may be a small loss of pressure, barely noticable.


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## TAOS1 (Feb 5, 2013)

I use Maxxis 2.20 Icon EXO and had nothing but problems in my rear. Might be because I'm 'heavier' at 210lbs, but I even 'stretched' the tire on a step down drop. Maxxis warrantied the tire, but I went back to tubes in the rear and have not an issue. Front is holding good.

I even run 33-40 psi, still burpage. 

I have a slightly wider rim on the way, may give it another try, but it's a bummer to not ride like you want to in fear of burping.


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## krelldog (Feb 17, 2015)

Doublebase said:


> I'm starting to think tubeless is more trouble than it's worth, I keep losing air and it's becoming a pain. I dunked the tire in a tank to find the leaks and the sidewalls are loaded with tiny pin holes around the tire. The bike store said this is normal and more sealant was needed...added more sealant. I'm not confident.
> 
> The guy at the bike store said, yeah it's a pain. Pretty soon I'll have so much sealant in there that my wheels will weigh ten pounds.
> 
> I'm thinking of going back to tubes, I've only had one pinch flat in my life and I run the pressures low enough. I actually think the tubes protect the rims a little bit...gives it one more layer of something to ease the impacts down a bit.


I've running tubeless tires for over 5 years and never had any leaks.


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## fvaldivia (Jan 8, 2009)

stans ztr flow ex with onza tires, never had a problem over here, 3 years and counting


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## Daniel de la Garza (Sep 5, 2015)

You can try another bike store? Sometimes wheelsets and tyres dont get along. I mean if you're using a ust ready wheelset it's not the same as a tubeless wheelset, and also the tyres could be having an issue with your current wheelset. People think tubeless is just apples and oranges but we need to read or investigate a little bit about our gear before we change or do something. 

Trying different set ups and sticking with what people say it works well it usually works. I'm far away from being a pro but information is key to your gear. I have Maxxis Ikon with a Mavic crossone and haven't have any issue so far, but I've only used then for about a month so it's not too much to believe in but I've tested them in hard terrain and small jumps and haven't had an issue in my hardtail. 

Anyway if you do have a tubeless wheelset and good tyres then all I can say is that you may have a lemon.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

net wurker said:


> Just FYI.....TR is not the same as UST. UST has the special bead AND sidewalls that are made for sealing air without the need to run sealant.
> 
> TR just means it has the special bead. The sidewall doesn't have the extra layer that makes them where you can run without sealant. If you are experiencing leaky sidewalls, you may want to try a UST tire. However, if you run tubes and rarely get flats, I see no benefit of trying to go tubeless.
> 
> ...


Actually, that is not quite right. Compared to a standard tire, TLR sidewalls seal much better, but still require sealant as compared to a true UST tire, which doesn't require sealant.


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## jonz50 (Jun 10, 2011)

While I don't know this happened, I suspect the LBS who set up your tire didn't spend as much time as necessary to get the sidewalls properly sealed. I haven't watched the Stan's setup video in awhile but from what I remember and based on my experience, the most time consuming part is holding and shaking the tire horizontally, and them checking for sidewall leaks with soapy water. Then repeating the process until the leaks stop. Since time is money for a shop, I suspect this step gets skipped on occasion. I've had tires that sealed the first time, others that took several repetitions of the horizontal shake, and some that didn't seal completely until ridden. 

I ride half the year in the desert. After riding the Palm Canyon Epic and getting 4 flats even when starting with Slime tubes, I switched to tubeless several years ago and have only had a single flat (a sidewall slash). I won't go back to tubes ever.


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## MattyJay88 (Feb 26, 2007)

I run Conti X-King Tubeless tires and in my experience that tend be a little more porous then some other brands out there. To save me some headache I spray the inside of new tires with spray-tack and let that dry before adding sealant. Works like a charm.


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## fontarin (May 11, 2011)

No issues running tubeless here. Maintenance generally involves taking 5 minutes to add sealant once every 3 months (I keep a calendar reminder to make it easy). Most tires take about 5-10 minutes to set up initially, with the occasional tire taking a bit longer.

I couldn't imagine running tubes around here. Way too much cactus on the main trail I ride - I'd need to run slime tubes (heavy) or tubes with sealant (dries out just like tubeless). Also tons of sharp rocks and ledge descents. No pinch flats either, and (knock on wood) I think I've burped one tire in about 2 years. I tend to run 23-25 PSI at 170lbs w/ gear. I generally check air pressure before rides, but most of the time it's not necessary unless I haven't ridden in a week. I'd do the same with tubes.


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## stonyspider (Nov 2, 2015)

I beleive I have some points that can help, as I have a lot of experience.

First off, the amount of sealant does not need to be continually added to. If you can hear/feel sealant shaking around in the tire when you shake it, that means there is enough sealant to do what it needs to. Generally the recommendations for sealant are a bit more than adequate.

As some have mentioned, some tires are better than others, and more importantly, some rims are better than others. I have found Maxxis TLR tires to work very reliably, and the best rims are the newer hookless style bead seat. 

Taping setup may make a big difference for you. I have found that running two strips of tape works best. It is important to run each strip of tape right up to the edge of the rim sidewall. Your tape pieces will overlap in the center. It is also optimal that the tape is wide enough to cover the spoke holes with the first peice. Punching a hole into the tape can also create a problem. Do not use a blade to put the hole in, as a split can be made and that split can run out past the seal of the valve stem. I use a drill bit and hand twist a small hole in and then press the valve stem through that small hole.

After the tire is mounted and air put in, I have found that particularly in the case of lesser quality bead seats, start by putting in significantly more pressure that what you will ride with, helping to make sure the bead is set properly, and helping the sealant do its job. At this point rotate and shake the tire by hand, letting sealant get into the bead seat all the way around the wheel. You may be able to hear small leaks in the bead seat with the extra psi in the tire. You need to shake the sealant into the bead seat at these points.

I know this may seem a bit extensive, but if it is all setup properly, the tubeless setup will by far outperform and be less of a hassle over all of your riding experience.

Tony


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## Johan B (Nov 2, 2015)

*Preferred tubeless setup*

I use Maxxis LUST tyres and UST rims. That is mostly trouble-free. Every time that I try something else I do get problems.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I ran tubeless for one season many a year back, and reverted to my tubes. I did not like the mess and the aggravation of seating the tires on the rims, etc. I do realize I am in the minority amongst the racing set.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Something that may be helpful to those having problems with or those planning to go tubeless is to post your setup and results:
I'll start and just put up 3 different setups I've used.

Rim: Frnt - SunRingle Equalizer 21
Clincher?: Yes
Rim Tubeless Compatible: NO
Rim Strip?: Using rim strip from Stans tubeless setup kit
Rim tape (factory taped or self taped and what kind): Self/Stans
Tire: Specialized Captain Control 2.0
Tire Tubeless Compatible: Yes
PSI: 28
Length of time used: Going on 3 years
Problems if any: N/A
Comments: Works good but have to run higher pressure than I would like I think because of the relatively thin walls of tires - I don't go lower than 27 psi.
-----------
Rim: Rear - DT Swiss XR400
Clincher?: Yes
Rim Tubeless Compatible: NO
Rim Strip?: Using rim strip from Stans tubeless setup kit
Rim tape (factory taped or self taped and what kind): Self/Stans
tire: Specialized Captain Control 2.0
Tire Tubeless Compatible: Yes
PSI: 29
Length of time used: Going on 3 years
Problems if any: N/A
Comments: Works good but have to run higher pressure than I would like I think because of the relatively thin walls of tires - I don't go lower than 29-30 psi.
-----------
Rim: Frnt - Specialized Roval Traverse
Clincher?: Yes
Rim Tubeless Compatible: Yes
Rim Strip?: No
Rim tape (factory taped or self taped and what kind): Factory taped
tire: Specialized Purgatory Armadillo Elite
Tire Tubeless Compatible: Yes
PSI: 24
Length of time used: 2
Problems if any: N/A
Comments: 
-------------
Rim: Rear - Light Bicycle Carbon
Clincher?: No
Rim Tubeless Compatible: Yes
Rim Strip?: No
Rim tape (factory taped or self taped and what kind): Self/Gorilla Tape
tire: Specialized Butcher SX
Tire Tubeless Compatible: Yes
PSI: 22
Length of time used: 1 yr
Problems if any: N/A
Comments: I have run other tires such as Specialized Captain Control 2.2 but have to run 27-28 PSI to prevent lateral rolling of tire due to thinner side wall - Have run Butcher as low as 12 PSI (on accident but it did not cause problems) at DH Park
-------------
Rim: Front - Light Bicycle Carbon
Clincher?: No
Rim Tubeless Compatible: Yes
Rim Strip?: No
Rim tape (factory taped or self taped and what kind): Self/Gorilla Tape
tire: Maxxis Ardent 2.4 EXO
Tire Tubeless Compatible: Yes
PSI: 21
Length of time used: 1 yr
Problems if any: N/A
Comments: I have run other tires such as Specialized Control 2.2 but did not feel safe going below 24-26 PSI


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

There is no one right answer. Bikes, tire choice, terrain, & riding style will factor in on how to run your tires

Tubeless working well for AM & XC depends on your body weight vs. how much air you like to run. Then you have to check PSI before every ride to avoid problems. I've learned to like tubeless but I have to run higher PSI than I'd prefer to keep the tires from burping in high speed corners since I weigh 225lbs. 
(I run 28-30psi F/38-40psi R on AM bikes with snakeskin sidewalls)

For DH bikes I still run tubes, at least in the rear. Full DH casing tires hardly (never, really) punch flat for me. Cornering speeds and G-forces are much higher on the DH bike (for me at least) and I do not feel confident running tubeless and it staying on the rim. ( I run 26-30F/ 32-36R psi on DH bikes)

I start racing Enduro next year and the jury is out on how it'll go for tires. I plan on tubeless, switching from snakeskin sidewalls to SG sidewalls depending on terrain, but will most likely run a full DH tire at Bootleg Cyn, Mammoth, and similar terrains. Bringing at least two wheelsets to each race will help make the final decisions and easier to switch between setups.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

stonyspider said:


> the tubeless setup will by far outperform and be less of a hassle over all of your riding experience.


You can't know that, sorry.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Look, at the end of the day, tubes are so simple, most folks understand them, and its hard to screw them up beyond pinching the tube/bead b/c you struggle with installation and use a lever (I have only seen a few tires in my life that couldn't be installed 100% by hand). Tubeless adds another element of technical skill that is just not for everyone. For those that get it, its not that much more complicated than using a tube. For others, its a PITA. I can honestly remove my tires, add new sealant, and reinstall/inflate in only a few more minutes than I can change a tube. I don't make a mess. Its v. easy with you have proper TLR tires/rims; an air-compressor makes it v. quick. I have converted many other tires/rims using Stan's strips as well as just tape with no burps etc. and not a lot of drama. I have had one flat from a cut sidewall in ~4 years of riding tubeless. The times I have had issues with sealing tires has almost always been related to tape and valve stem seal issues. The directions above about taping are v. good...the Stan's yellow tape (and others like it) need to be installed carefully or it can move exposing spoke nipple holes rendering your tubeless setup useless. Stan's sealant is the gold standard, but I have made my own that works just as well - see the homebrew sealant thread. You will always have to pump up your tires before each ride tubed or tubeless in my experience and it makes me wonder if the lack of checking is the cause of most of the burping issues you hear about.


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## spartus (Jun 26, 2009)

Others have said this already in the thread, but I would definitely recommend dedicating some time to shaking each wheel/tire and sealant to cover all the internal surfaces. Then set the wheel on each side for about 15 minutes to really let the sealant cover the side walls. 

After over 20 years of tubes I jumped on the tubeless bandwagon this year with the purchase of a new bike. The bike came with Stan's Arch wheels ready to go. I have over 1000 miles on some Conti black chili protection X-kings and they just take an ounce or so every couple months to prevent the over night air leakage. Also, I swear by the Stan's syringe as a easy and quick way to top off the sealant. This prevents the biggest pain in the ass to me, which is getting the tire to mount to the rim and hold air without a tube.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

stonyspider said:


> the tubeless setup will by bar outperform and be less of a hassle over all of your riding experience.
> 
> 
> slapheadmofo said:
> ...


I have to agree with the stonyspider. Since going tubeless I don't worry about flats on the trail because I haven't had one in so long. I can run much lower pressure and that along with no tube inside allow tires to give and absorb hits from rocks and roots without killing momentum - another big benefit of this is a smoother ride on rough stuff. Lower pressure also amounts to better traction on roots, rocks, sand and surfaces that normally cause traction problems. I had an initial learning curve and some frustration going tubeless, but now that I really understand what works and what doesn't I'll happily never use tubes again.


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## LUW (May 4, 2011)

Never thought of using sealant inside a tube? I didn't want to deal with the mess if I needed to change a tyre, so I put about 50 g of sealant (Joe's) in the tube. Did that some years ago for all three bikes (including a CX) and it's been over 10K km since I last had to change a tyre in the side of the road. I just have to tap off the air once every 10 or 14 days, and once or twice a year I ditch the tube - just install a new one with the sealant.


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> What rate to your tires leak down? Mine loose ~5-8psi over a week. Totally normal.


This.
Here's my list of must have items if running tubeless:
Compressor (LBS is close by for me)
Sealant injector syringe (Stan's one works great)
Core removal tool
Valve stems with removable cores

Shake it up: The Stan's sealant tends to separate while the stuff is on the shelf, leaving the bits on the bottom to coagulate (similarly to the famous tire boogers). To get the right ratio of contents into the tire, you have the shake the bejeezus out of the bottle of Stan's first. Without rigorous shaking, you get only the most liquid parts of the mix and none of the sticky bits; this component alone will not seal pinholes. I shake the stuff hard for 60 seconds, thread on the injector syringe and remove the plunger, then shake again for about 60sec. right before filling the syringe up. I run 2.3/2.4" tires on Arch EX rims and use a bit over 2oz per tire. I like the tubeless-ready tires but I don't use them religiously. Have had great luck with Panaracer Rampage, Saguaros, WTB Vulpine, Ikons, performance-level (aka cheapo) MKIIs, Ardent 2.25, and others - all in non-tubeless ready / budget spec. Have also used tubeless ready Kenda 24Sevens and Racing Ralphs (which wept a bit like non-TLR tires).

Saving time and mess: The sealant injector and core removal tool means I only remove my tires when a) I tear one, b) when it wears out, or c) when I want to switch to a different tread. Topping off sealant (about every 3 months) takes about 10minutes per tire - no compressor required because I don't break the bead from the rim.

RE: WTB TCS rims + non-TCS tires - Go, or NoGo? Have heard that the rims don't play well with non-TCS & non-UST tires, and vice versa, due to differences in the shape of the beads and bead hooks. I don't have any experience on this matter. Perhaps someone can chime in?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Not for nothing, but I rarely flat, run my pressure in the low 20s for trail riding (and have run much lower DHing in muddy conditions) all with plain old tubes. I can use any tire/rim combo, never need to refill any sort of sealant and would love someone to quantify the performance difference between tubed and tubeless tires of the same tread pattern/volume tire run at the same pressure. I don't believe you'll be able to show any measurable differences.

I think sealant is useful for those that ride places with lots of thorns, etc, but we don't have issues with those where I live. Other than that, claiming that tubeless to be simpler than and outperform tubes for every rider out there is just silly. YOU like them, they've worked for YOU. That's as far as you can go with it. Unless you're salesman or marketing victim of course.


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## ezweave (Jul 9, 2004)

It looks like the 5010 comes with EXO TR Maxxis tires per the build sheet and the screenshots on their website... it doesn't specify the rear Ardent being TR, but the pics show it as such. That could be a source of the problem. It's possible that Santa Cruz didn't spec it correctly and is using the non-TR Ardent. 








That said, it sounds like this could just be an initial setup issue. Some of that may depend on the shop. If this is a larger shop with younger mechanics with a heavy workload, they may have skipped some setup steps, which seem unnecessary but are important.

I don't usually have to use soap on my tubeless setups (my MTB and my CX bike), but here is the general process I have used for years:


Tape rim. I have used Gorilla and Stan's with equal effectiveness.
Install stems. Not too tight, but tight enough that it won't come loose and that the rubber grommet is in the tape.
Seat beads with a compressor or the Flash Charger pump. I bought a Flash Charger because my compressor is loud and the tank is small. I think the Flash Charger is a shitty pump on its own, but for seating tires it works flawlessly. I have had tires that took two "charges" to get the bead to seat all the way around.
Deflate, remove the valve core, and put in your Stans. I use a 2oz Stans bottle that I refill and reuse. I don't like pulling the tire off once it's seated, it works but can add to your headaches. Going through the stem saves that hassle. I also hate the Stan's injector... it's kind of a messy POS. I just fill up the 2oz bottle from my big 32, once for road/CX and twice for MTB. 
Reinflate.
Shake the **** out of the tire. Rotate it as you go.
Lay it on each side for 30 minutes. Use a bucket. A sink. Two chairs. Whatever.
I usually leave it overnight before riding, but I'm also used to stretching/gluing tubulars... old racer habits, I suppose.

Using that method, I've mounted many, many tires (Maxxis, Schwalbe, WTB, Hutchison). I use Ardent EXO TRs on my XC bike exclusively. They last a while and setup rather quickly. Granted, Schwalbe's are softer and a bit more posh, but I can burn through a Racing Ralph in a month. No bueno.

As for "rolling around with tons of sealant". That's not really an issue. Very little actually clings to the sidewall. As it dries out, you instead get "snowflakes" that you just dump out when you change the sealant.









It really isn't much harder than swapping a tube. The little bit that accumulates on the sidewalls is just so little that you're going to burn through tires faster than you're going to build up "ten pounds of sealant".

The benefits of tubeless are countless. In the Rockies, we get lots of cactus spines and tons of goatheads. I can just brush them out. I've done plenty of Endurance XC racing and it's saved my ass many times. I've never had a burp or a flat mid race, but I've seen it happen (bad setups, or running with tubes). The grip is the other part. I can reliably run at 19/24 PSI which I could never safely do with tubes.

I go through 2-3 sets of tires a year and round up the snowflakes and put new sealant in maybe 4-5 times (sometimes more if I have a big race coming up and don't want to worry about it). It isn't hard at all.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not for nothing, but I rarely flat, run my pressure in the low 20s for trail riding (and have run much lower DHing in muddy conditions) all with plain old tubes.


on some of the lighter weight tires i notice they start to get flats as they get worn so it's kind of a wear indicator


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I can use any tire/rim combo, never need to refill any sort of sealant and would love someone to quantify the performance difference between tubed and tubeless tires of the same tread pattern/volume tire run at the same pressure. I don't believe you'll be able to show any measurable differences.
> 
> Other than that, claiming that tubeless to be simpler than and outperform tubes for every rider out there is just silly.


...said the guy that has never tried tubeless


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## Daflake (Nov 2, 2015)

Nothing but tubeless here in both my road and my mountain bike. The main reason is where I live. Here in Arizona, cactus will kill your ride in a heart spell and within the first 3 months of living here I had 2 flats. Switched to tubless on the the road bike and no further problems. 

On the MTB, that has always been setup tubless and requires minimal effort to maintain. I simply carry a tube with me just in case I get something that won't seal out in the hills. Either way I would highly recommend it for any rider.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Of the dozen or so bikes I take care of in my family all but a couple are tubeless. Most are "ghetto" but 2 are Stan's wheel sets. Just "regular" tires. Mostly I use Stan's sealant but have had good luck with Slime Pro also (doesn't seem to "booger" like Stan's). Tubeless very trouble free but a) most will lose a PSI or 2 overnight, b) at least yearly the sealant will need to be "freshened" (boogers removed) c) always take a couple of oz's for problems on the trail. (I also carry a spare tube just in case) I've only once had to use a tube to get back out of the woods. (Vs a least a couple of tubes a year in the old days when running tubes)

Having an air compressor in the shop makes a huge difference when using tire/rim combinations on the fringe.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

pb123hou said:


> ...said the guy that has never tried tubeless


Said yet another moron that didn't bother to read the thread and figured he'd just chime in with some a comment based on nothing at all.

Good input bro.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

I posted this earlier but just thought I would do it again for anyone interested:
Amazon: 
Stans 16 oz. $16.69; *32 oz.* $19.04 + $4.92 shipping = *$23.96*
TruckerCo High Performance Cream Tubeless Tire Sealant *34 oz. $19.50 *shipped

I just purchased my second bottle of this stuff and it's on the way. No, I don't work for them, just passing on a good deal for any fellow mtber that's interested. There are also customers that say they've tried both and it's better than Stans (see Amazon Reviews).

Per TruckerCo (manufacturer/seller): This stuff works a lot better than stans at sealing the tire. It doesn't necessarily last longer or make less "mess." The TruckerCo sealant has a much higher concentration of latex than stans. It will actually work when you have a leak and not leave you stranded. The sealant is not watered down and won't separate into a booger sloshing around in water. This will coat the inside of the tire as it dries. It is a much higher quality, higher performance product.
Amazon.com : TruckerCo High Performance Cream Tubeless Tire Sealant 1 liter : Bike Tires : Sports & Outdoors


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not for nothing, but I rarely flat, run my pressure in the low 20s for trail riding (and have run much lower DHing in muddy conditions) all with plain old tubes. I can use any tire/rim combo, never need to refill any sort of sealant and would love someone to quantify the performance difference between tubed and tubeless tires of the same tread pattern/volume tire run at the same pressure. I don't believe you'll be able to show any measurable differences.
> 
> I think sealant is useful for those that ride places with lots of thorns, etc, but we don't have issues with those where I live. Other than that, claiming that tubeless to be simpler than and outperform tubes for every rider out there is just silly. YOU like them, they've worked for YOU. That's as far as you can go with it. Unless you're salesman or marketing victim of course.


Easy, come down off the ledge, Lots of riders find an advantage, some don't. For one, no pinch flats with tubeless and no thorn flats for me. Eastern MA has lots of thorns, especially when one might veer( like crash) off course. Performance? Lower pressure, sometimes lighter wheels. Less rolling resistance. More recently, I took the tubes out of my Farley, they weighed 1 lb apiece. Only put in 3 oz of stans. The best way, as stated is to start with a good tubeless system, wheels and tires. Start there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I really don't think I need to run my pressure into the teens for trail riding, thanks, nor do I run 1lb tubes. Tubeless at lower pressures than I already run would just roll on the rim, or burp constantly, so no advantage there. I ride in the same general area as you and ca't really say thorns have ever been an issue. So as far as I see, tubeless is a more expensive, more complicated "solution" looking for a problem. Not saying you don't like it or that it doesn't work for many, but do you really think anyone here could tell the difference in ride quality or rolling resistance in a blind side by side test? No way.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I really don't think I need to run my pressure into the teens for trail riding, thanks, nor do I run 1lb tubes. Tubeless at lower pressures than I already run would just roll on the rim, or burp constantly, so no advantage there. I ride in the same general area as you and ca't really say thorns have ever been an issue. So as far as I see, tubeless is a more expensive, more complicated "solution" looking for a problem. Not saying you don't like it or that it doesn't work for many, but do you really think anyone here could tell the difference in ride quality or rolling resistance in a blind side by side test? No way.


Have you read any of the posts on here? I don't know one person that has not converted to tubeless and ended up loving it, even if they did have problems initially. I rode on tubes for a long time, yes tubeless is far better, I'll never go back. Case in point, I sold a bike about a year 1/2 ago to a local guy I had never met before. I set the tubes back in it to put the bike back to stock like I bought it, mostly because I had it listed on Ebay and thought I might have to ship it. He had never used tubes before and when he bought it I told him I would show him how to set it up tubeless if he wanted, and told him he'll like it much better. He kind of gave me a blank stare and said ok, but we never got around to it. I saw him on the trail about 4 months ago and he had finally converted tubeless. I've never seen him so excited as he talked about all the benefits. But if you want to continue believing that you know all about it at the contradiction of those that have tried it and if you never want to try it, that's your choice. Just enjoy riding.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

If anyone who has tried tubeless but did not care for it and has extra sealant taking up space in their garage I will pay for shipping to take it off of your hands.


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## Daflake (Nov 2, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I really don't think I need to run my pressure into the teens for trail riding, thanks, nor do I run 1lb tubes. Tubeless at lower pressures than I already run would just roll on the rim, or burp constantly, so no advantage there. I ride in the same general area as you and ca't really say thorns have ever been an issue. So as far as I see, tubeless is a more expensive, more complicated "solution" looking for a problem. Not saying you don't like it or that it doesn't work for many, but do you really think anyone here could tell the difference in ride quality or rolling resistance in a blind side by side test? No way.


I only have one question. Have you tried it?

If you haven't, then it would be impossible for you to actually weigh in. You can actually feel a difference in rolling and it does help with keeping punctures to a minimum.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Of course I tried it. Not once, a number of times, going back at least 10 years for the first time to my current trail bike that I ran tubeless most of last season since it came that way. My son's Mojo is currently tubeless also. I get the whole sealant thing in thorny areas. I don't ride in a thorny area and I don't see any noticeable difference in the performance between tubed and tubeless tires, except on the occasion that I have torn a sidewall or burped a tire, it's been a messy PIA to deal with trailside with tubeless, and I've got to carry tubes as a back-up no matter what, so I don't see any worthwhile reason to use them. 

And iPB123, in case you didn't notice, a number of people have chimed in saying they also have chosen not to run tubeless. Hell, maybe you noticed the title of the thread?  

If you like 'em great. For some, the cost and hassle aren't worth the purported benefits. There's much to be said for simplicity.


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## CrashWorship (May 7, 2009)

When I had issues with tubeless it was because I wasn't doing something correctly.

Only issues I had with tubeless were basically:

1) Not taping the rim. You should do this even on UST tubeless rims
2) Using ultra-light tires with weak beads and sidewalls
3) Not shaking the Stan's enough.
4) Not using enough air pressure to seat the bead correctly.
5) Not occasionally adding more Stans.
6) Not having a clean rim/bead
7) Not spinning the wheel to distribute Stans all around the rim/tire surfaces

Once I taped the rim correctly (no/few tiny air bubbles), (even tubeless rim), I never had any issues with burping. You cannot use ultralight tires like Specialized S-Works series and expect good results. 

If you take the time to properly tape the rim, you won't get burping even at very low pressure provided the tire has a decent sidewall a good stiff bead. After taping I can run pressure so low that the tire rolls on its sidewall and still does not belch air. I recently got new meat and my beads from the old tires were so well sealed it was difficult to get the bead off the rim. 

After I worked out the bugs, I haven't looked back. The increase in air volume is very noticeable. I won't go back to tubes. 

My bikes have been all over the Sierra, in Moab, big drops, etc... without a hitch. I carry a spare tube for emergencies on long/remote rides but have never had to use it.

You do have to recharge the Stans. I always add 125mL of Stans on a fresh tire.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

pb123hou said:


> Have you read any of the posts on here? I don't know one person that has not converted to tubeless and ended up loving it, even if they did have problems initially. I rode on tubes for a long time, yes tubeless is far better, I'll never go back. Case in point, I sold a bike about a year 1/2 ago to a local guy I had never met before. I set the tubes back in it to put the bike back to stock like I bought it, mostly because I had it listed on Ebay and thought I might have to ship it. He had never used tubes before and when he bought it I told him I would show him how to set it up tubeless if he wanted, and told him he'll like it much better. He kind of gave me a blank stare and said ok, but we never got around to it. I saw him on the trail about 4 months ago and he had finally converted tubeless. I've never seen him so excited as he talked about all the benefits. But if you want to continue believing that you know all about it at the contradiction of those that have tried it and if you never want to try it, that's your choice. Just enjoy riding.


Dude, some beginner being excited about his new parts isn't really saying much IMO. Probalby would've got the same results just by putting on better tires and adjusting the pressure properly. I've seen that happen more times than I can count, tubeless or not.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dude, some beginner being excited about his new parts isn't really saying much IMO. Probalby would've got the same results just by putting on better tires and adjusting the pressure properly. I've seen that happen more times than I can count, tubeless or not.


He wasn't a beginner to mountain biking, I didn't say that - the bike he bought from me was not the first one he owned. But he also had ridden the bike he bought from me for months before he converted tubeless, so he had a good perspective on the differences.

Regarding the thread. The guy that made the initial post seems to have been looking for help and advice before he gives up on tubeless. Not because of performance problems, but because he's having trouble setting it up.


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## Daflake (Nov 2, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Of course I tried it. Not once, a number of times, going back at least 10 years for the first time to my current trail bike that I ran tubeless most of last season since it came that way. My son's Mojo is currently tubeless also. I get the whole sealant thing in thorny areas. I don't ride in a thorny area and I don't see any noticeable difference in the performance between tubed and tubeless tires, except on the occasion that I have torn a sidewall or burped a tire, it's been a messy PIA to deal with trailside with tubeless, and I've got to carry tubes as a back-up no matter what, so I don't see any worthwhile reason to use them.
> 
> And iPB123, in case you didn't notice, a number of people have chimed in saying they also have chosen not to run tubeless. Hell, maybe you noticed the title of the thread?
> 
> If you like 'em great. For some, the cost and hassle aren't worth the purported benefits. There's much to be said for simplicity.


It was just a question... I can and do notice a difference when riding between tubed and tubeless. I actually prefer tubes on my road bike for ease of things, but it does feel and ride better tubeless. Here in my new location, it is kind of necessary on all bikes but I understand how some people may not like it due to maintenance. You attacked the topic as if there wasn't a reason for tubeless and that simply isn't true. Not all of us ride groomed lovely trails and have to deal with pointy things putting an abrupt end to our riding due to a flat. That is my reason to switching, but you are right, my guess is that most won't notice a difference in performance or get any gain out of it.

Just an example, but a friend got a flat, we change the tube and then flatted the same tire with a nail 20 feet down the road. It does happen.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

So what's the final score on tubes versus tubeless here? We really should move on to clipless versus flats soon. :lol:


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## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

I love how this is an issue that people are so passionate about ...

Tubeless here, 5 years and counting. Zero problems (running stock Roval rims w/ Spec 2bliss tires and Stans), no flat tires in 5 years (except one ripped out sidewall), doesn't lose much, if any pressure between rides, add Stans twice a year, no problems. Not the greatest innovation ever, but it is nice not getting flats.


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## Daflake (Nov 2, 2015)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> So what's the final score on tubes versus tubeless here? We really should move on to clipless versus flats soon. :lol:


LOL, clipless of course.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

No, I 'attacked' the statement that tubeless is better and lower maintenance for all, hands down. 

You know what else is always amusing? 
When people assume that just because some people don't worship their gear choices, it's because they ride on sidewalks and/or are mechanically challenged. Yup, 25 years of riding, building trails and wrenching in New England, famous for our smooth and groomed trails, not to mention the same length of time as a mechanical designer for systems far more complicated than some 2 wheeled toy, it must be cuz I'm either stupid or not as 'core' a rider as you are right? Please... 




Seriously, IME there isn't as big advantage as people tend to make out. Besides the thorn/cactus thing of course. Barring that, tubes are a completely viable (and cheaper and simpler) option.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Tystevens said:


> I love how this is an issue that people are so passionate about ...
> 
> Tubeless here, 5 years and counting. Zero problems (running stock Roval rims w/ Spec 2bliss tires and Stans), no flat tires in 5 years (except one ripped out sidewall), doesn't lose much, if any pressure between rides, add Stans twice a year, no problems. Not the greatest innovation ever, but it is nice not getting flats.


Honestly I love tubeless setups. Nowhere near the only reason... but I live in an area where certain times a year there can be a lot of mosquitoes around the trail. I remember many times having to stop and patch or change a tube and just getting swarmed and eaten alive by them - it sucks. And of course now with West Nile and other diseases... you never know what could happen.

So there is another good reason to convert to tubeless - West Nile Virus.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Tried tubeless - OK when it's going OK but a PITA when you do get a decent hole in the tyre and it won't seal. A sticky mess on the trail.

I don't get so many flats running tubes that stopping to pop a tube in is a big deal, so I just run regular tubes and tube tyres now.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

One other advantage that hasn't been discussed is weight. The big draw for me was losing rotational weight..about a 1/2 pound on my MTB and a little less on my CX. So for me it's flat prevention and weight.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## jmal (Jul 16, 2009)

If I can even remember the original few posts at this point, it sounds like there are a few issues with the OP's wheels. The first is that they may not have had the sidewalls sealed initially during the setup. A lot of the time, shops don't have the time or interest to shake and rest the tires for the many cycles needed to properly seal the sidewalls. They just tape the the rims (often badly) and throw sealant in. The second is the tape job. I have seen shops do a horrendous job with the tape. Air bubbles, spoke holes exposed, etc.. Lastly, there might be a compatibility problem with the tire and the rim. The OP's tires are proven, solid tires for tubeless setups. We don't know what kind of rims he has, but if we assume they play well with the Maxxis tires, my guess is the initial setup was bad. 

It is normal with tubes or tubeless to lose air between rides. Some lose more than others, but all will eventually lose air. The OP mentioned that at one point his tire was completely flat. This tells me that there is a major leak other than the minor sidewall leakage. I'm guessing it is around the valve or a spoke hole and needs to be retaped if it continues.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> One other advantage that hasn't been discussed is weight. The big draw for me was losing rotational weight..about a 1/2 pound on my MTB and a little less on my CX. So for me it's flat prevention and weight.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


This might be a good time to run down the advantages of tubeless we've learned from this thread:
1. Less rotational weight
2. Less flats from thorns/stickers, etc.
3. No pinch flats
4. Less rolling resistance
5. Better traction
6. Smoother ride over rough terrain
7. No West Nile Virus

Now I've never met anyone that prefers more rotational weight, more flats, more rolling resistance, worse traction, rougher ride, or West Nile Virus. But if there is anyone on this thread that does, by all means feel free to keep using tubes.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

I'll keep using tubes thanks


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## rth009 (May 20, 2010)

I cant believe we are having this conversation in November of 2015


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^but to be fair, you must list the cons. More initial setup hassle. More expensive (tubes and patches vs. Stan's). Switching tires not as easy. Still need to carry a tube. Need to be more particular with tire and rim choice.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

I need to take a pic of my roomates karate monkey (tubes) vs my Yelli (tubless). 1 has a double flat 1 is good to go. Guess which one is flat?

Still to nervous to run tubless on dh bike though.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I too will say I know no one that has gone back to tubes after being tubeless.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## PhilWong (Feb 17, 2014)

Been using Maxxis DHF and DHR2 3C/EXO/TR on both Stans ZTR flow and Spank Oozy TR-ready rims. No prob whatsoever, save for a flat due to a pretty nasty cut. Tube or tubeless, nothing is perfect. Go with the one that fits your needs.









Phil


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I prefer to judge from my own experience rather than from internet anecdotes or what the sales guy at the LBS says. 
Cleaner and simpler, far easier to deal with trailside (where it really counts, and when the mosquitoes will eat much better while you try to reset a bead with a mini-pump), no 'burps', much quicker to set up/swap/repair, not limited by arcane compatibility issues, and the whole traction/ride/resistance/smooth rolling stuff is mainly (if not completely) due to things like pressure, tread design, volume and rubber compounds. 
Oh, and you don't have to carry a tubeless set-up around as back-up. 

What it mainly comes down to for me though, is tubes have never left me having to walk out, but tubeless has, and I'm all set with hiking because of something as minor as a flat tire. Not worth it to me personally. Not like I'm any sort of a weight-weenie in the first place - and I offset the little bit of extra heft by not buying into the dropper post hype either.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

pb123hou said:


> This might be a good time to run down the advantages of tubeless we've learned from this thread:
> 1. Less rotational weight
> 2. Less flats from thorns/stickers, etc.
> 3. No pinch flats
> ...


Thanks!
(BTW, that list may or may not be true, depending on circumstances)



MiniTrail said:


> I use tubes to piss people off


Finally, a good reason for an equipment choice. :thumbsup:


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

PhilWong said:


> Been using Maxxis DHF and DHR2 3C/EXO/TR on both Stan ZTR flow and Spank Oozy TR-ready rims. No prob whatsoever, save for a flat due to a pretty nasty cut. Tube or tubeless, nothing is perfect. Go with the one that fits your needs.
> 
> Phil


Seems maxxixs is the go-to tubless tire. I think they are slightly smaller in diameter. My friend pumps his up with a floor pump.

My schalbys i had to do 2 stans wrapps and 2 gorilla tape wraps for the tire to bite right with a high pressure pump. Tape prob weights as much as a tube. Lol


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

I found that switching to an enduro-specific sealant solved all of my issues with tubeless.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MiniTrail said:


> I use tubes to piss people off


While their waiting for you to fix your flat?


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## crackednipples (Jan 13, 2010)

Of course they are....there are some very bored peeps in the world


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

jmal said:


> If I can even remember the original few posts at this point, it sounds like there are a few issues with the OP's wheels. The first is that they may not have had the sidewalls sealed initially during the setup. A lot of the time, shops don't have the time or interest to shake and rest the tires for the many cycles needed to properly seal the sidewalls. They just tape the the rims (often badly) and throw sealant in. The second is the tape job. I have seen shops do a horrendous job with the tape. Air bubbles, spoke holes exposed, etc.. Lastly, there might be a compatibility problem with the tire and the rim. The OP's tires are proven, solid tires for tubeless setups. We don't know what kind of rims he has, but if we assume they play well with the Maxxis tires, my guess is the initial setup was bad.
> 
> It is normal with tubes or tubeless to lose air between rides. Some lose more than others, but all will eventually lose air. The OP mentioned that at one point his tire was completely flat. This tells me that there is a major leak other than the minor sidewall leakage. I'm guessing it is around the valve or a spoke hole and needs to be retaped if it continues.


Yeah you might be right, perhaps the tubeless setup wasn't done correctly at the shop. Maybe the sidewalls weren't sufficiently coated with the sealant. The rims are WTB st 123.

There is no leaks around the spokes or the valve stem, it's the sidewalls. I will say I do a lot of riding on rough terrain...the sidewalls get their fair share of scrapes from rocks, etc, but the tire did go completely flat two weeks after I bought the thing (I probably had 8 hours worth of riding in on the thing at that point).

I'm now on my 2nd dose of sealant. When I added the sealant I turned the wheels on their sides and rotated the tire some, then I took it on a two hour ride. The tire/sealant must have had plenty of movement during that time. I'm heading out for another ride on Wednesday, so I'll see how that goes.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Doublebase said:


> Yes they come stock on the Santa Cruz 5010, with the wtb rims.


Wait, this is the set up you're having trouble with?? Wow. That same exact set up on that same bike has been the most trouble free, maintenance free tubeless set up I've ever run and I've been running tubeless for close to 10 years. They came from Santa Cruz or the dealer already set up tubeless. I added Stans every couple months and never had a leak or burp or lost more than a few pounds of pressure a week. In fact I took them off after about 8 months (wheels and all) because I got some new carbon rims and they hung in the shop for 6 months without losing all the air. When I sold the bike, I put these wheels back on, aired them up and they're still going strong (I sold the bike to my brother).

Something must be wrong with the tire or the rim tape.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

To those saying the trailside fix is an issue. Why? If you get a flat due to a puncture (which is v. unlikely) you remove the valve stem, insert your spare tube, inflate. It's no more of a PITA than changing a tube...just a little messier.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

BTW, great experience with Maxxis but Specialized tires have been the bees knees for my group.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

KRob said:


> Wait, this is the set up you're having trouble with?? Wow. That same exact set up on that same bike has been the most trouble free, maintenance free tubeless set up I've ever run and I've been running tubeless for close to 10 years. They came from Santa Cruz or the dealer already set up tubeless. I added Stans every couple months and never had a leak or burp or lost more than a few pounds of pressure a week. In fact I took them off after about 8 months (wheels and all) because I got some new carbon rims and they hung in the shop for 6 months without losing all the air. When I sold the bike, I put these wheels back on, aired them up and they're still going strong (I sold the bike to my brother).
> 
> Something must be wrong with the tire or the rim tape.


Yes these are the rims and tires combination that both my friend and I are having problems with - he now is using tubes - and I'm heading that way. We bought our bikes at different shops. Both were end of the season sales put on by Santa Cruz.

Like I said, I do ride on fairly rocky single track. The sidewalls do take some hits and scrapes from rocks...the sidewalls do have scrapes on them, but it's nothing I had to worry about when I had tubes. More sealant has been added, we'll see how it goes.


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## jmal (Jul 16, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> Yeah you might be right, perhaps the tubeless setup wasn't done correctly at the shop. Maybe the sidewalls weren't sufficiently coated with the sealant. The rims are WTB st 123.
> 
> There is no leaks around the spokes or the valve stem, it's the sidewalls. I will say I do a lot of riding on rough terrain...the sidewalls get their fair share of scrapes from rocks, etc, but the tire did go completely flat two weeks after I bought the thing (I probably had 8 hours worth of riding in on the thing at that point).
> 
> I'm now on my 2nd dose of sealant. When I added the sealant I turned the wheels on their sides and rotated the tire some, then I took it on a two hour ride. The tire/sealant must have had plenty of movement during that time. I'm heading out for another ride on Wednesday, so I'll see how that goes.


Good luck with it. Your setup is usually a solid, reliable combo so it should work itself out. The flat may have been around the valve, but may have sealed once more sealant surrounded the leak. Hopefully it works out for you. Tubeless has been really nice for me. The performance benefits are not huge, but the puncture resistance is great. I have had tons of rim strikes, thorns, goatheads, etc. over the years and have never once had a problem that the sealant wouldn't fix. Had I been on tubes, I would have spent a lot of time on the side of the trail. Regional differences play a big role in preferences too. Many people in this thread would have a different opinion if they lived in a region with goatheads. Conversely, people in the East, which includes me at the moment, can ride with tubes just fine. We don't have cacti and goatheads to deal with here.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Circlip said:


> I found that switching to an enduro-specific sealant solved all of my issues with tubeless.


Me too, since I switched to enduro® blue sealant my strava trophies are out of control.


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## Manning (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm not convinced tubeless is the holy grail. No real issues with the mtb tubeless. But I've gone back to tubes, on the set of CX race wheels. Can get all rowdy with no fear of burping. I haven't had the best of luck with tubeless in CX/ gravel type wheels/tires. 

In my experience, something bad happens once you go beyond say...35-40 psi (gravel / cross bike territory). Stan's won't seal at higher pressures. Just becomes a milky fountain. I've had a tiny strand of steel wire puncture a tire that was full of fresh stans, and I made it home before it went flat, but just barely. 

And just fyi, pinch flats with tubes can be significantly reduced if the tube fits the tire properly, like how motorcycle tubes are fitted. As in the largest tube that will fit without bunching up (not the weight weenie style of tiny tube that has to stretch to 4x it original cross section to fill the tire). 

Tubeless makes a lot of sense on a mtb with an owner that is mechanically inclined. Otherwise, not so much.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^just converted my CX to tubeless. Wire bead non-TLR tires and rims. Seems to be fine. I don't run over 35 and don't go below 30. I admit I'm a bit concerned about throwing it into corners still. Did ride some stairs tonight with no issue!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

What about Schwalbe Procore hybrid tires? Seems like the best of both worlds as you can have 2 separate air pressures in one tire. I've been happy using tubes. Never had a problem even after 3 Downieville trips. Not many thorns there though but plenty of sharp rocks.


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## PhilWong (Feb 17, 2014)

TS, why don't you get a new tubeless-ready tire to troubleshoot the problem? If you're getting another Maxxis, consider one with EXO enhanced sidewall protection.

For all you know, the problem you're facing could due to a bad batch of tires. 

Phil


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^but to be fair, you must list the cons. More initial setup hassle. More expensive (tubes and patches vs. Stan's). Switching tires not as easy. Still need to carry a tube. Need to be more particular with tire and rim choice.


Just want to say, i have nothing against tubeless, they're a perfectly usefull thing, but for me...For Me:

When I got my first set, AMClassic wheels, Hutchison Python tyres, worked perfectly well, lost a few psi every day, nothing unusual (although as I said earlier in the thread, for 20+ years I check my tyres probably every month or more and even then only lose a psi or 2) so I found it to be a small hassle, nothing major and always expected.
After a good while they wouldn't hold pressure, the goo had dried out, fair enough. Now i could go get some goo and keep putting it in every so often...or put in a tube and job done (Well I actually switched to a different tyre at the same time). That was 2.5 years ago, those same tubes are still in there, no punctures, no patches.
Now of course I could get 5 punctures in the next week, but thats the risk I'm willing to take, maybe get punctures, maybe not, pump up every now and then, over having to change the goo a few times a year and pump up every other ride.

My current tubless setup is also fine, still have to pump up a couple of times a week but i also find that, same as tubed, I run 30psi, maybe 28 depending on conditions, any less and I find it really squirmy, especially the rear (650b rocket rons on syncros rims). SO for me not less pressure.

weight, yeah I'll probably be giving up around 100g per wheel to tubless, but that just doesn't really bother me, i'm fat and slow and just don't care.

I know people say that setup and maintenance of tubeless isn't a hassle, and I'm sure its not...to them. I do 95% of my own maintenance (which i hate 100% of), changing a tube is simple, fiddling with goo is not something I can be bothered with. Seems an aweful lot of people seem to be abe to stuff up such a no hassle thing, hence OP making this thread.

If I still rode where I used to way waaaay back when, then I'd be all tubeless everywhere all the time, it was more thorns than dirt. These days I rarely get flats, so the hassle to risk factor of each, I pick tubes.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I must say thanks to this thread my commitment to tubes will continue.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Aside from the fact that I haven't had to worry about flats anymore even when I ride in the desert with rocks and stickers/thorns/needles I really like being able to run very low pressure. Along with a good suspension that is set up properly, it keeps my tires from bouncing on rocks and roots even at high speeds. My tires feel like they just hug the ground no matter what kind of terrain I'm on - even on wet, slippery roots.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm with you DJ.


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## Pynchonite (Sep 2, 2013)

My two cents: I've been all-tubeless for three-ish years now and would never go back. I've toured tubeless, CX'ed and XC'ed tubeless, commuted tubeless, and thrown a rigid SS down mountains tubeless. Haven't had a flat that wasn't also the end of the tire.

I understand the hassles: I pump my tires up more than I did when I ran tubes and swapping out tires is much messier and takes more equipment (unless we're talking Maxxis or Spesh, which regularly seat w/ a floor pump for me).

But:
Once you've had some experience changing them, the actual process becomes pretty easy. (Main thing is to clean everything before putting the wheel back together.) And it gets quick to the point that it can be about the same amount of time as any tubed tire with a tight bead. The tire pressure thing is nice but the important thing is how the pressure feels, and tubed and tubeless tires pumped to the same pressure feel different. Tubeless tires feel more solid at lower pressures, less squirmy (riding bikes around the shop that have gone flattish from sitting but that are at the same PSI as the tires on my commuter has given me some perspective on this). Then there are the thorns: I have never missed class or work (that's pretty much all I do) because of a flat, whereas I spend most of every day from late July to early October pulling thorns out of tubed tires for people who were just trying to go about their day. Again, I've toured some several hundred miles this year tubeless and haven't had so much as a suggestive hiss. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've ridden three bikes all set up this way nearly every single day regardless of weather for three years and wearing through tires has been my only consistent problem. 

I have the advantage of working part time in a shop that caters mainly to mountain bikers, so I get more practice than a lot of people, but really, the only things that I have access to that most others don't are a good bike stand, an air compressor (doesn't matter with practice), and opportunities to improve. Can't do much about the last one, but the former two are available to anyone.

Love it; wouldn't go back. Maybe never will. My two cents.


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## jerik61 (Jan 30, 2009)

I've used it for years. No trouble at all. So something must have been done wrong. Rims and tyres differs, of course, but Notubes rims and most Tubeless Ready tires with extra protection in the sidewalls should absolutely work out well.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Is it really that bad? I top off the Stan's every three to four months. If you have removable valve cores...it's even easier. Some sealant will drip on the floor...but that's all the "mess" there is. The thing that made life easier is an air compressor (or a CO2 if I'm too lazy to take out the air compressor). If my tires have been mounted before...they seat almost immediately. If my tires are new or have been stored folded, I'll mount the tire with a tube and let it sit overnight. It'll seat right away with some compressed air. My girlfriend did burp her front tire once in almost three years. I was able to seat the tire with a hand pump. I've never burped a tire.

Only time I've seen it not work and fail on the trail was a hack of hack setups that involved a non TLR tire, duck tape, and Stan's. It worked for a couple hours.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

PhilWong said:


> TS, why don't you get a new tubeless-ready tire to troubleshoot the problem? If you're getting another Maxxis, consider one with EXO enhanced sidewall protection.
> 
> For all you know, the problem you're facing could due to a bad batch of tires.
> 
> Phil


That's am awfully expensive troubleshooting technique. It's the tape.....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't get the maintenance/cost thing. Sealant & tape cost about the same as a couple of tubes and fewer flats = less maintenance.

So in my neck of the woods it's cheaper and easier.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Crooked Cop said:


> What about Schwalbe Procore hybrid tires? Seems like the best of both worlds as you can have 2 separate air pressures in one tire. I've been happy using tubes. Never had a problem even after 3 Downieville trips. Not many thorns there though but plenty of sharp rocks.


The procore requires 2 valve holes in your rim. Are they in production yet?


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## PhilWong (Feb 17, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> That's am awfully expensive troubleshooting technique. It's the tape.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


The sidewalls are leaking air according to the TS.

Phil


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> The procore requires 2 valve holes in your rim. Are they in production yet?


Actually looks like they use a 'dual valve' through a single rim hole.

Schwalbe // PROCORE


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## crankarms (Nov 13, 2011)

Tubeless all the way, especially if you ride in an area with a lot of sharp rocks.

I can't believe how many flats my riding buddies who run tubes get. We always have to stop for at least one of them, at least every other ride.

Some tires are better than others. Personally I've had problems going tubeless with some Continentals, never an issue with schwalbes. I mount big 2.35 Magic Mary's with a floor pump. For brand new tires it might take a couple of attempts but that's it. Occasionally have to add air and once in a "blue moon" more stan's.

Keep trying to find the right combo, its worth it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

PhilWong said:


> The sidewalls are leaking air according to the TS.
> 
> Phil


Any small pinholes or pores should be sealed by the sealant with no issues.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

If you're having tubeless problems I feel bad for you son.


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## rth009 (May 20, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Any small pinholes or pores should be sealed by the sealant with no issues.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


especially if you do the "stan's dance" and then lay the tires flat on each side on a bucket for a good while. stans says only 15 minutes each side, but I usually do much more for good measure


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

My problem is that my rims are tubeless ready, but my treads are not, and the bike is brand new. So my original plan was to ride the current treads are worn down, then replace them with tubeless ready and make the swap.

When I priced it out, would be about $150 to make the swap. (It is primarily just two new treads, the tape, stems, some sealant)

What is bothering me is that I should get a medal from the local trail club because I have been performing a service of clearing all of the trails of thorns. 

April: 2in thorn punctured tube.
April: 0.25in hidden thorn still in tube punctured replacement tube (noob mistake)
May: 1in thorn punctured tube.
May: Pinch flat due to really soft conditions and low PSI for added grip. 
June: 1in thorn punctured tube.
August: 1in thorn punctured tube.

I have burned through 6 friggin tubes this season so far. The second tube was obviously my fault not turning the tread inside out to inspect it thoroughly. Also potentially the pinch flat, but that was just bad luck as I still had it at 35psi on a 29x2.3 tire. Should have been plenty.

At this rate, by the time I successfully wear down the tread, I will have likely paid for the damn upgrade in tube replacements. 

FML.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

TSpice said:


> My problem is that my rims are tubeless ready, but my treads are not, and the bike is brand new. So my original plan was to ride the current treads are worn down, then replace them with tubeless ready and make the swap.
> 
> When I priced it out, would be about $150 to make the swap. (It is primarily just two new treads, the tape, stems, some sealant)
> 
> ...


With a tubeless system set up right, you will definitely have far, far fewer flats. But the tire that you have may still work tubeless. No way to know without trying it unless someone else has done it with the same rim/tire combination.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

One thing I no longer do is pull out a thorn in the tire while on the trail. I wait till I get home to find that the sealant has dried up in my tire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Well I wrote to Maxxis, like a lot of people suggested, here's what I wrote...

I purchased a new bike a month and a half ago and it came stock with your tires Ardent EXO TR 27.5x2.25 in the back and Minion DHR II EXO TR 27.5x2.30. The setup is tubeless - it's a Santa Cruz 5010 carbon - and I've had problems with the tires after the first 6 or 7 rides. The sidewalls appear to be pourus and leak air from tiny little holes on the sidewalls. I started a thread on MTBR.com about it and the people suggested writing to you about it...that you may replace the tires because they could be defective. The thread has 16,000 views and counting, so I thought I'd give it a shot and see if you can help me out. Thanks.

Who knows? Maybe I'll hear back from them. I certainly like the performance of the tires and I'm entertaining the thought that perhaps the tires I have are dry rotted or something of that nature.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MiniTrail said:


> get better tubes then
> 
> Panaracer DH SuperTube 26" x 2.1-2.35" 36mm PRESTA Valve Tube


And transform your nice ride into a slug.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually looks like they use a 'dual valve' through a single rim hole.
> 
> Schwalbe // PROCORE


That Procore is genius! (But way more than I'd need for my riding style)

Yes, concentric passages in their single valve stem with a "switch" to go between the 2 tire air chambers.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

> My problem is that my rims are tubeless ready, but my treads are not, and the bike is brand new. So my original plan was to ride the current treads are worn down, then replace them with tubeless ready and make the swap.
> 
> When I priced it out, would be about $150 to make the swap. (It is primarily just two new treads, the tape, stems, some sealant)
> 
> ...


Give it a shot with your existing tires (assuming you don't have a huge hole or tear). $40 for stems, tape and sealant bought separately; $65 if you go for a "Tubeless for Dummies" kit.

Going tubeless is sort of like learning to ride a bicycle; awkward at first but once you get the hang of it it comes easy.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't get the maintenance/cost thing. Sealant & tape cost about the same as a couple of tubes and fewer flats = less maintenance.
> 
> So in my neck of the woods it's cheaper and easier.


Sealant = $17 and you probably use a bottle a year at most depending on riding conditions, your tires, and temperatures. Tape for initial set-up can be $5 for some 1" Gorilla Tape; Stan's yellow tape is $14/a roll...enough for several rounds of two rims. Valve stems are $16. Tubeless is not an expensive endeavor. Tubes nowadays are nearly $10. Patches are $5. I just patched my tubes into oblivion before replacing them when I was still running tubes. I have made my own Stan's knock-off home-brew (propylene glycol, distilled water, ammonia, liquid latex, cornmeal (2:2:0.3:1:1 tbsp) = call it $40...enough to last for years) that works just as well. I have set up countless tubeless setups and 100% of the issues have been related to a bad tape job or valve stem installation. The tires ALWAYS have sealed up, TLR or not. Stan's rim strips work great for non-TLR rims but again...tubeless has an element of trial/error (and I am confident this is one of ht main reasons some folks don't like it/want to try it) and sometimes you have to build up the center of the rim etc. to get things just so. I personally enjoy the tinkering. My current setup is a 100% set it and forget it easy TLR deal that just about anyone should be able to do. I personally break my bead when I add sealant b/c I have an air compressor and like to put my eyes on the inside of the entire to assess the sealant' condition and remove boogers if I have any but the syringe should handle this for the folks that don't want to screw around. Finally thought...there is so much [email protected] info out there about tubeless it is also what I believe causes second thoughts by some. Even some shops still don't fully understand this technology. Someone posted a link above that really explains it well i.e. UST, TLR, etc.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> Sealant = $17 and you probably use a bottle a year at most depending on riding conditions, your tires, and temperatures. Tape for initial set-up can be $5 for some 1" Gorilla Tape; Stan's yellow tape is $14/a roll...enough for several rounds of two rims. Valve stems are $16. Tubeless is not an expensive endeavor. Tubes nowadays are nearly $10. Patches are $5. I just patched my tubes into oblivion before replacing them when I was still running tubes. I have made my own Stan's knock-off home-brew (propylene glycol, distilled water, ammonia, liquid latex, cornmeal (2:2:0.3:1:1 tbsp) = call it $40...enough to last for years) that works just as well. I have set up countless tubeless setups and 100% of the issues have been related to a bad tape job or valve stem installation. The tires ALWAYS have sealed up, TLR or not. Stan's rim strips work great for non-TLR rims but again...tubeless has an element of trial/error (and I am confident this is one of ht main reasons some folks don't like it/want to try it) and sometimes you have to build up the center of the rim etc. to get things just so. I personally enjoy the tinkering. My current setup is a 100% set it and forget it easy TLR deal that just about anyone should be able to do. I personally break my bead when I add sealant b/c I have an air compressor and like to put my eyes on the inside of the entire to assess the sealant' condition and remove boogers if I have any but the syringe should handle this for the folks that don't want to screw around. Finally thought...there is so much [email protected] info out there about tubeless it is also what I believe causes second thoughts by some. Even some shops still don't fully understand this technology. Someone posted a link above that really explains it well i.e. UST, TLR, etc.


Are you going to post up your recipe? Oh I just realized you did. Is it cost effective compared to just buying it? Does it work as good or better than Stans or others?


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> I personally break my bead when I add sealant b/c I have an air compressor and like to put my eyes on the inside of the entire to assess the sealant' condition and remove boogers if I have any but the syringe should handle this for the folks that don't want to screw around.


I would always break the bead to check on/add sealant and then I bought a syringe not too long ago. While it's easy to just add more sealant I find myself breaking the bead still to remove boogers and to just see what's left in there. I enjoy time spent in the garage doing this stuff/tinkering like you but it really doesn't take much time... maybe 2 beers worth of time? :thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

pb123hou said:


> Are you going to post up your recipe? Oh I just realized you did. Is it cost effective compared to just buying it? Does it work as good or better than Stans or others?


You answered your own question....all the data/info is in the post. If you are interested in home-brew sealant, check out the "best tubeless brew" mega-thread over in the 29er forum..probably one of the longest threads on mtbr! Without going into great detail, you need:

Liquid latex. "Mold Builder" brand at Hobby Lobby or Michaels etc. Get a 40% off coupon. The tub should cost ~$12.
Propylene Glycol. Get this at Tractor Supply. Its used for livestock. Gallon bottle is ~$20.
Distilled water. I hope you can figure this out. $2.
Cornmeal. Kroger brand is what I use. $3.
Ammonia. Ace Hardware brand (not pure). $6

Mix is 1 part latex, 2 parts DI H20, 2 parts PG, 0.3 parts ammonia, 1 tbsp. cornmeal. Start with PG and water. Add ammonia. Add latex. I use a mason jar and shake the $hit out of it to mix. It gets warm. Cornmeal last. My proprietary homebrew name is BAMFS (bad @ss mother #[email protected]#[email protected]# sealant). My "part" is a red Stan's scooper.

There is also the original "WSS" (Walt's secret sauce) that is just ATV Slime, RV anti-freeze, distilled water, and latex. Works really well and is cheaper.

This is enough to make an @ss load of sealant. I make it at time and my group all use it. The BAMFS is basically Stan's. Ok..no more homebrew talk...go to the mega-thread, order a pizza, get some beers, and start reading.

The end.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

pliebenberg said:


> That Procore is genius! (But way more than I'd need for my riding style)
> 
> Yes, concentric passages in their single valve stem with a "switch" to go between the 2 tire air chambers.


For only $230!

Know what, I'll deal with the incredibly rare pinch flats that you can get with tubeless, rather than depend on what's effectively a road tubular tire to protect my rim.

I can see how it would work, sometimes...but I don't think it's going to be the major improvement people are trying to make it out to be.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

richde said:


> For only $230!


Ouch!

I hope that's the kit for 2 wheels?

Regardless, an extra level of complexity and weight that I just don't need.

And what happens when you puncture that inner "tire"?


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## jonz50 (Jun 10, 2011)

pliebenberg said:


> That Procore is genius! (But way more than I'd need for my riding style)
> 
> Yes, concentric passages in their single valve stem with a "switch" to go between the 2 tire air chambers.


It's very similar to the Tubliss setup for dirt bikes (motorcycles ). Which is highly regarded and has been around for awhile. I just ordered two for my dirt bike - $99 per wheel. The Procore valve stem is trick though.


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## Crooked Cop (May 28, 2014)

Yea once the price comes down, Procore will be the way to go. I can see why the price is so high since they have to cover for 6 years worth of R&D costs.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Home brew sealant ain't worth it if it corrodes your rims. Ammonia is highly corrosive to aluminum. I'd use Stans or Orange Seal. 


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Stan's had it too as I understand it.

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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

I agree, adding it to homebrew sealant is counterproductive when there is already ammonia in the latex you are adding. 

Of course, don't delude yourself--Stan's has ammonia and rims don't automatically self-destruct because of it...


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

I just set up my friends bike tubeless. He had been riding on the stock tires with tubes for about 5 months. The rims already had tape from the factory, which worked to seal the holes... but the tires were extremely loose on the rims. It's a clincher/hooked rim. It was a pain - the whole thing took about 4 hours for both wheels. We tried it first but could not get the tires to seat even with setting the compressor at 115 psi. to start (tires just way too loose). Put a layer of Stans tape over the stock tape... the tire inflated but a major leak at the valve stem. Took the valve back out and put a piece of Gorilla tape over the valve hole and punctured it with a box cutter in the traditional X. Filled it with air again from the compressor and sealant started spewing out of a hole in the tire that he wasn't aware of (since he had been using tubes). We were still having problems with leaking at the valve stem too, but not as much as before. Moved to the other wheel and put a piece of Gorilla tape over the valve hole. Then applied a layer of Stans tape, and put another piece of Gorilla tape on top of the Stans over the valve hole. Inflated that tire with the compressor... took a while to get it to catch with pressing the tire into the rim with our hands to try to prevent air leaks. Finally the tire pushed out and caught into the hooks. Had to tighten the round stem lock nuts on both wheels with pliers. Had to re-inflate both tires multiple times. The sealant finally at least mostly seemed to seal the hole in the tire. Headed to the trails. Had to inflate the tires twice within just a few minutes because they were still losing significant air. He was quite nervous and still skeptical but ready to try it. He rode the parking lot for a couple minutes... had to re-inflate one (or maybe both) tires. Hit the trails and all worked good, and he was a happy camper afterward. We got a pretty hard aggressive ride in so he's no longer a skeptic and pretty confident now. He could notice the improvement in traction in the turns. I'm sure he's another convert and I will bet anything that he will never even consider going back to tubes again.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

pb123hou said:


> Had to tighten the round stem lock nuts on both wheels with pliers.


I've never tightened beyond finger tight.

It seems like some make such a big deal out of simple problems.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Zowie said:


> I agree, adding it to homebrew sealant is counterproductive when there is already ammonia in the latex you are adding.
> 
> Of course, don't delude yourself--Stan's has ammonia and rims don't automatically self-destruct because of it...


Wrong! Stan's HAD it. Now there is just a trace amount, so low it doesn't even have to be mentioned on the MSDS sheet; not the copious amounts mentioned here for the home brew concoctions. Google it. VeloNews (Leonard Zinn's tech articles) posted photos of corroded rims.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't put much on mine...my rims have 3 years of this and no trace if metal corossion.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

pb123hou said:


> I just set up my friends bike tubeless. He had been riding on the stock tires with tubes for about 5 months. The rims already had tape from the factory, which worked to seal the holes... but the tires were extremely loose on the rims. It's a clincher/hooked rim. It was a pain - the whole thing took about 4 hours for both wheels. We tried it first but could not get the tires to seat even with setting the compressor at 115 psi. to start (tires just way too loose). Put a layer of Stans tape over the stock tape... the tire inflated but a major leak at the valve stem. Took the valve back out and put a piece of Gorilla tape over the valve hole and punctured it with a box cutter in the traditional X. Filled it with air again from the compressor and sealant started spewing out of a hole in the tire that he wasn't aware of (since he had been using tubes). We were still having problems with leaking at the valve stem too, but not as much as before. Moved to the other wheel and put a piece of Gorilla tape over the valve hole. Then applied a layer of Stans tape, and put another piece of Gorilla tape on top of the Stans over the valve hole. Inflated that tire with the compressor... took a while to get it to catch with pressing the tire into the rim with our hands to try to prevent air leaks. Finally the tire pushed out and caught into the hooks. Had to tighten the round stem lock nuts on both wheels with pliers. Had to re-inflate both tires multiple times. The sealant finally at least mostly seemed to seal the hole in the tire. Headed to the trails. Had to inflate the tires twice within just a few minutes because they were still losing significant air. He was quite nervous and still skeptical but ready to try it. He rode the parking lot for a couple minutes... had to re-inflate one (or maybe both) tires. Hit the trails and all worked good, and he was a happy camper afterward. We got a pretty hard aggressive ride in so he's no longer a skeptic and pretty confident now. He could notice the improvement in traction in the turns. I'm sure he's another convert and I will bet anything that he will never even consider going back to tubes again.


So some type of ghetto set up not built for purpose...no suprise it was challenging to set up. TLR tires and rims set up v. easily and are v. dependible. Your experience would have been better with Stan's rim strips.

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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I always did the inside rubber gasket of the valve stem in sealant before I install it.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> So some type of ghetto set up not built for purpose...no suprise it was challenging to set up. TLR tires and rims set up v. easily and are v. dependible. Your experience would have been better with Stan's rim strips.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


It was not a "ghetto" set up. Tubeless wheels, tubeless tires. The tires had been ridden for 5 months with tubes. They were extremely loose. The point is it was a difficult set up, but with determination it worked.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Gotcha. Agree that it is often easier with new tires.

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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

MikeDee said:


> Wrong! Stan's HAD it. Now there is just a trace amount, so low it doesn't even have to be mentioned on the MSDS sheet;


So what you're saying is, Stan's still has it. :lol:


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

From Stans Website:
I heard there is ammonia in your sealant and it is bad for my tire and or rim?
Any trace amount of ammonia in Stan's sealant will evaporate soon after it is injected into the tire. We have found no damaging effects from our sealant even after years of use. Any oxidation in your rim will just as likely be caused by riding in wet conditions or the humidity in the air. Although tape may not be necessary to seal your rim, you may add one layer to protect un-anodized or scratched areas of your rim from oxidation due to moisture in the sealant.

Disclaimer: I do not necesarrily endorse, agree with, or claim this is proof of anything. I'm just posting what Stan's has to say about it. It's on their FAQ page... NoTubes Recommended Tires

It seems like I recall reading somewhere else that a small amount of ammonia is necessary to prevent the latex from hardening while it is still in the bottle.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Seems reasonable to me. So many folks using it and also making their own that I just don't think this is causing any issues. The liquid latex you buy to make the homebrew has ammonia in it to prevent the latex from drying up.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I converted about 6 months ago and will never go back. The initial setup sucked really bad but that was partially my fault. I bought the Stan's tape and stems from my LBS. I had one hell of a time getting the stems to not leak. I finally got it all sealed up but I did not trust the setup for downhill use. I ended up putting tubes back in before my monthly downhill trip. 

Fast forward to a month later, 5 months ago, I decided to give tubeless another go because we were all literally getting flats on every single ride with several rides having two flats per ride per person. There are just too many thorns around here. If you even think about going off the trail you will get a flat and on the trail is no guarantee of a flat free ride. This time I bought a different set of valve stems. I believe "Spike" was the name or the brand. These were effortless. I installed them finger tight, threw the tires on, and inflated. Not a single issue whatsoever. It was literally a 10 minute job at most for both wheels. My rims just did not seal with Stan's valve stems. 

The first round was with Schwalbe Rock Razor and Hans Dampf tires. The tires were flawless through the whole thing. Next, I went with a Magic Mary and a new Hans Dampf with a softer compound. Learned a lesson there, I will never try to seal up brand new tires that have been folded up in a box. So I installed both tires with tubes and left inflated at 50psi for about 30 minutes. I did the tubeless conversion again and it was another 10 minute job. As long as the tires are not new, I think it's quicker and easier than doing a tube. 

I've had extremely good luck with tubeless on the stock Giant rims and Schwalbe tires. The Spike stems helped as well. For me, its absolutely no harder than using a tube. My primary reason for going tubeless was the insane amount of flats we were getting. It made it to where it was no fun anymore. In a group, you're stopping every 10 minutes for someone to fix a flat. Since I went tubeless I've had zero flats. I've noticed twice, a good sized hole where some of the Stan's sealant could be seen as a little dot on the tire. I never expected to go from an average of one flat per ride to zero flats in 4-5 months but that's what happened and that's why I would never go back to tubes. I notice that I seem to have more traction when climbing at low speeds over rocks. The tires definitely hang on to edges better at the same pressures as when I had tubes in them. I don't run really low pressures. About 30psi up front and 33-34 in the back but I weigh 240lbs. 

In the beginning I had trouble estimating tire pressure by pushing on the tread because the tubeless push in and deform easier which is a good thing. I'm one of the few (possibly) that don't have to add air any more often than I did with tubes. Once a month maybe, but it's usually due more to the outside temps changing. I tend to resist change so if it weren't for the number of flats I would probably still be running tubes and happy. If you're in a place where you're not getting flats I can't say that going tubeless is worth it, at least for me and other average riders where the performance benefits are very hard to see. In an area like mine, tubeless is mandatory as far as I'm concerned. I don't need to do the math to realize I'm saving a ton of money, downtime, and frustration with the tubeless setup.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

BuickGn, if you go with lower pressure you would probably see even more benefit with the tubeless setup. I run 21 psi. in the front and 22 psi. in the back. At downhill parks I've gone lower than that. Traction is awesome when running that low. Of course you can't run that low with every tire. I only use tires that have added thickness on the sidewalls, like Maxxis EXO protection and I'm currently using a Spec. Butcher but not the thinner walled "control" version, I'm using the SX version. It's great to never get flats!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

pb123hou said:


> BuickGn, if you go with lower pressure you would probably see even more benefit with the tubeless setup. I run 21 psi. in the front and 22 psi. in the back.


Ok, pb, do you weight 240 lbs?

Standard tubeless formula

(240 / 7) - 1 = 33.3 PSI on the front.

(240 / 7) + 2 = 36.3 psi on the rear

I would say Buick is running a little lower.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I just converted. Setup was a breeze, used a floor pump, sealed up fairly quickly and holds air for weeks. No burps (using a wtb kom, so UST profile).

... Im not seeing any benefit, at all. It rides the same. Im 185lb and running 20psi, I dont want to go any lower. Theres not many thorns here, so for the one time a year I puncture, its not a huge benefit. If I flatted often, this would be amazing! I dont though.

Downside is cost. I now need to keep sealant around. I cant swap tires easily, as theres gooey sealant to mess with now. It really was nice being able to swap tires for the conditions in 5 minutes before a ride, so thats kind of a big deal too. All in all, I think im tossing tubes back in. Not because tubeless was a pain or didnt work, it just doesnt seem worth it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

pb123hou said:


> I run 21 psi. in the front and 22 psi. in the back.


One size doesn't fit all, there are a lot of determining factors to optimal psi. Close to 20 yields occasional rim strikes for me and I'm only 175#, not acceptable.

~25 is the current magic number with the tire/rim combo _I'm_ using.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

The benefits have to be measured. If you can run tubes and and not feel restricted based on your riding style, terrain, or both then perhaps you and anyone else that fits into this category, and should consider running tubes.

For my riding style, running a low enough tire pressure to match my terrain presented too many pinch flats. Eliminating pinch flats was reason enough. Obviously many here don't have that problem. Whatever works for you is what works.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> The benefits have to be measured. If you can run tubes and and not feel restricted based on your riding style, terrain, or both then perhaps you and anyone else that fits into this category, and should consider running tubes.
> 
> For my riding style, running a low enough tire pressure to match my terrain presented too many pinch flats. Eliminating pinch flats was reason enough. Obviously many here don't have that problem. Whatever works for you is what works.


Yup... These threads that turn into "worth it or not" comments are useless. People who casually stroll along won't see a benefit from tubeless and the effort that some are putting into such an easy task boggles my mind. It's a very simple process but if it's too difficult then stick to the dang tubes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Truth. For the casual rider, tubeless isn't worth it IMHO...tubes are v. simple and effective. But yes...tubeless is so simple I just don't get the hassle of it that folks expereicne. I think most of the issues are simple lack of proper technique to get the tires to seat or lack of adequate volume/pressure trying to use a floor pump.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

I will never use tubes again. I just don't see any reason not to have tubeless. Even if I only had 1 flat per year with tubes that alone would be reason enough for me. When I get my boardwalk cruiser bike I will set it up tubeless.


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## Daniel de la Garza (Sep 5, 2015)

How do you guys get 25psi on tubeless? I can't trust to go lower than 30 I weight 90kg and have Mavic crossone with maxxis Ikons 2.2 could I go lower?


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Daniel de la Garza said:


> How do you guys get 25psi on tubeless? I can't trust to go lower than 30 I weight 90kg and have Mavic crossone with maxxis Ikons 2.2 could I go lower?


Depends a lot of the tires. Some tires will fold and roll laterally at low pressure which can lead to burps. Often XC tires and especially light weight XC "Race" tires fall into this category. I have some Specialized Captain Control tires that I won't go below around 27 psi. (and that is pushing it) because the sidewalls flex too much at anything lower. Maxxis has a bunch of different versions of most models of their tires. If I were going to get an Ikon and wanted to run it at low pressure I would make sure to get Tubeless ready (TR), EXO (thicker sidewall). EXO is for sidewall protection against cuts/abrasions, but it also gives more support on the sidewalls, which is what you want to run a tubeless setup at low psi. I have a Maxxis Ardent TR/EXO and today for instance I rode at 19.5 psi. on very rooty trails at fairly high speed with no problems. I've had it for 4 or 5 months now and never go higher than 21 psi. on it. Check out how many different versions of the Ikon (and various versions of other Maxxis tires) are available. If you have one of the lighter weight, thinner sidewall tires, I would not run too low pressure on it. See the "Tech" column. Ikon | Maxxis Tires USA


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Ideal tire pressure is directly correlated of your weight. People who suggest running a given pressure without having any idea what the riders weight is is like telling someone they think small frames sizes are what everyone should ride with no concern for their height.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Yep...its all weight-related and also has to do with the tires you run (width, strength of sidewalls, etc.) and the bike (FS, etc.). For me, at 160lbs (not kitted up) riding a HT on non-agressive trails, I run 22.5f/24r. Any lower, and I start smacking my rims over roots etc. or having the sidewalls buckle when I put it down in corners. I am running S-Works tires (read thin casings) that are 2.1f/2.0r...so not big ones.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> But yes...tubeless is so simple I just don't get the hassle of it that folks expereicne. I think most of the issues are simple lack of proper technique to get the tires to seat or lack of adequate volume/pressure trying to use a floor pump.


I think a lot of issues also come from the so-called tubeless "standards", or the lack thereof. Other than UST, there's no standard for tubeless tires & rims, every company seems to have their own idea of what a tubeless system is so there's often compatibility issues which make setup harder than it should be.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> What it mainly comes down to for me though, is tubes have never left me having to walk out, but tubeless has, and I'm all set with hiking because of something as minor as a flat tire.


See below.



TiGeo said:


> To those saying the trailside fix is an issue. Why? If you get a flat due to a puncture (which is v. unlikely) you remove the valve stem, insert your spare tube, inflate. It's no more of a PITA than changing a tube...just a little messier.


This is what I don't understand. For the life of me, I cannot come up with a scenario where my tubeless fails and a spare tube won't fix it that would have been avoided if I'd been riding tubed.

The only flats I've ever had on tubeless were from torn sidewalls the sealant couldn't seal... So that would have torn a tube too. Each time I just put a tube in and rode out.

I just don't get how something could flat a tubeless setup that wouldn't flat a tubed setup, besides a burp which is stupid easy to fix (usually just add more air, but worst case add a tube.)


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

aerius said:


> I think a lot of issues also come from the so-called tubeless "standards", or the lack thereof. Other than UST, there's no standard for tubeless tires & rims, every company seems to have their own idea of what a tubeless system is so there's often compatibility issues which make setup harder than it should be.


Truth. Every situation is different with tire/rim combo as well as which tape, stems that are used, hookless vs. clincher rim, rim diameter, tire diameter and size, volume, technologies, condition, etc. Potentially so many different variables. That's why one needs to be ready to troubleshoot if necessary and be prepared for learning curves. And that's why a lot of people give up on it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

If you can get a tire to tightly sit on a rim and the spoke holes to be sealed, you can get it to hold air with no tube...at least that has been my experience. I just think many folks don't understand/aren't willing to spend the time to get this stuff working. Most of the issues with tires can be alleviated by wrapping tape around the rim several times or even using weatherstripping to build up the center channel of the rim to tighten the tire up. The Stan's conversion rim strips work awesome and may be needed for some cases. Finally, an air compressor is really necessary for a chunk of the tubeless conversions...they just won't seat without constant high-volume/high pressure air flow and manipulating the tire to make sure the valve stem is fully covered.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

TheDwayyo said:


> See below.
> 
> This is what I don't understand. For the life of me, I cannot come up with a scenario where my tubeless fails and a spare tube won't fix it that would have been avoided if I'd been riding tubed.
> 
> ...


You got it. Also, if you are running tubeless, you NEED to carry CO2 in addition to a mini-pump as you may need that burst of air to get a unseated/burped tire to catch...but again...you can always jam a tube in...not sure, as you stated, what the issue is.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Side note: I kinda hate Bontrager rims, but love their tires... But must admit that their rim/tire combo seats incredibly easy tubeless. I've never used a compressor, not even when working on a customer's bike and literally sitting next to one. Floor pump works just fine.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

pb123hou said:


> Truth. Every situation is different with tire/rim combo as well as which tape, stems that are used, hookless vs. clincher rim, rim diameter, tire diameter and size, volume, technologies, condition, etc. Potentially so many different variables. That's why one needs to be ready to troubleshoot if necessary and be prepared for learning curves. And that's why a lot of people give up on it.


Double truth. Some setups just take more time to get right and as you say, you need to be prepared to troubleshoot and for some folks, this is just beyond what they are willing to do/understand which is fine...but I hate when people gripe about tubeless when most of the time its user error in the set up.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> Ideal tire pressure is directly correlated of your weight. People who suggest running a given pressure without having any idea what the riders weight is is like telling someone they think small frames sizes are what everyone should ride with no concern for their height.


Lol, right?

I am a little over 200lbs geared up and have my current tires running at ~21psi f and 24psi r... BUT I have wide rims and the tires are burly Maxxis Minions (2.5/2.3 respectively) so MY setup allows for lower psi at my weight. If I were on S-Works XC race tires with narrower rims I'd be running higher pressures. Furthermore, the terrain you ride on mixed with your riding style also plays a part.

tl;dr version - don't pay too much attention to what others are running in regards to pressure, it's all about your setup/terrain/riding style and not just how much you weigh.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> You got it. Also, if you are running tubeless, you NEED to carry CO2 in addition to a mini-pump as you may need that burst of air to get a unseated/burped tire to catch...but again...you can always jam a tube in...not sure, as you stated, what the issue is.


Ya I've considered the C02 thing... But if I'd bet I can even seat my Bontrager tires with my hand pump. Maybe I'll try next time.

As you say though, a spare tube (which you really need regardless anyway) eliminates the need anyway so it's not an argument for staying with tubes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

TheDwayyo said:


> Side note: I kinda hate Bontrager rims, but love their tires... But must admit that their rim/tire combo seats incredibly easy tubeless. I've never used a compressor, not even when working on a customer's bike and literally sitting next to one. Floor pump works just fine.


Specialized rims (wider Roval versions) and their 2Bliss tires work this way too...floor pump is usually just fine. I also had good luck with floor pumps and setups that used Stan's rim strips b/c they formed a nice tight seal and no reason for them not to hold air. The biggest PITA rims are actually mine...they are Rovals but narrow so you have to spread the tire apart at the valve stem to get it to take...air compressor always nails it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

TheDwayyo said:


> Ya I've considered the C02 thing... But if I'd bet I can even seat my Bontrager tires with my hand pump. Maybe I'll try next time.
> 
> As you say though, a spare tube (which you really need regardless anyway) eliminates the need anyway so it's not an argument for staying with tubes.


CO2 is just good insurance like carrying a tube. I use an Backcountry Research Awesome Strap to keep a CO2 cart, tire lever, and =26" tube neat and tucked under my seat...always there if I need it and never have to worry about not being able to ride out. One caution, if you run tubeless the chances are you will not get v. many flats, if any, over long periods of time. I had an instance where I got a flat due to a bad valve stem. I got my stuff out to put my tube in and the tube was in bad shape/not useable from being folded up under the seat for so long. Doesn't hurt to take it out once every so often and make sure it holds air. Same goes for a seat bag (I can hear certain individuals now chiming in that the strap sucks b/c of the stuff being exposed)...your tube can get torn up in there with all the other bits rubbing it etc.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

A trick for getting beads to set too... You can inflate a tube in the tire by itself (not on the rim at all) and leave that overnight. It separates the beads a bit more since they often come kinda pinched together.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> CO2 is just good insurance like carrying a tube. I use an Backcountry Research Awesome Strap to keep a CO2 cart, tire lever, and =26" tube neat and tucked under my seat...always there if I need it and never have to worry about not being able to ride out. One caution, if you run tubeless the chances are you will not get v. many flats, if any, over long periods of time. I had an instance where I got a flat due to a bad valve stem. I got my stuff out to put my tube in and the tube was in bad shape/not useable from being folded up under the seat for so long. Doesn't hurt to take it out once every so often and make sure it holds air. Same goes for a seat bag (I can hear certain individuals now chiming in that the strap sucks b/c of the stuff being exposed)...your tube can get torn up in there with all the other bits rubbing it etc.


Luckily, I often ride with unprepared tube users... So I rotate my spare tubes often.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Me too unfortunately. It was just a wake-up call that day to check your spare gear...like your spare in your car. It site there for 10 years and when you need it...its flat.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Perhaps I'm just lucky.

I have been running tubeless for many years and 10's of 1000's of miles. I have installed new tires and used tires, swapped and re-swapped. Flatted and burped.

I have never experienced the difficulties, problems and hassles that so many here complain about. I have found tubeless to be a simple and quick solution to my needs. 

Every now and then, I will find a tire that can prove challenging to mount, but it usually just requires a little intuitive technique and gentle persuasion for it to bead-up. In fact, as TiGeo stated, I think it's mostly from a lack of proper technique that is the root cause to most of the tubeless related problems and complaints. But then, I know some folks can't install a screw without stripping it. Some should just stay away from tools. 

I have gotten non-tubeless tires to seat and function as well as if they were tubed. I have never found swapping tires with sealant to be all of the mess and hassle that many here elude to. I just swap tires and pour the sealant from one tire into the other, bead it up, add air and be done.

I have flatted in the backcountry and if I couldn't get the sealant to seal (tear or un-sealable), I whipped the wheel off, removed the valve stem and within minutes had a tube installed and was back to doing what I was doing when it flatted. Albeit that I'm now riding a tube and the risk of pinch flatting has become an issue. I just use a little more tire pressure than I would normally and ride more conservatively. I carry CO2, but very rarely have felt the need to use it. I generally just use my mini pump and keep going.

Only once have I burped to a complete flat. This was one instance where I used my CO2, and it didn't work at beading the tire. I just installed a tube and was going again. Usually, my burps (which are very infrequent) are just a lost of pressure and the tire immediately re-seated and it simply required some added air (from my mini pump).


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^preach on brother. 100%.

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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> Ideal tire pressure is directly correlated of your weight. People who suggest running a given pressure without having any idea what the riders weight is is like telling someone they think small frames sizes are what everyone should ride with no concern for their height.


Thanks for the calculator in that previous post. I ran some numbers through it and at my 240lbs with 30/33psi it would be the same as a 170lb person running 10psi less front and rear. I'm glad I gave up trying to run <30psi like many people do a while ago. It already looks like I'm pushing the safety margin with my current pressures.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Does anyone have a preference on CO2 vs "air"? I know there's already C02 in the air and there would be plenty air just sitting in the tire at 0psi to where you could never get close to pure CO2, but are there any advantages to a mostly CO2 tubeless setup? In other words, what if I choose to waste a couple of my CO2 cartridges to inflate the tires instead of the pump or compressor? Total and complete waste of CO2 cartridges? I was thinking in terms of air seepage and rubber breakdown.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

They are probably busy putting more special sauce in their tires, and letting them rest on their side.



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Come back to the dark side. Tubes, run em until the cows come home. That's what I've been doing all these years. The cows still haven't made their way home yet.
> 
> I have a feeling they're just hanging out talking smack about me behind my back.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

BuickGN said:


> Does anyone have a preference on CO2 vs "air"? I know there's already C02 in the air and there would be plenty air just sitting in the tire at 0psi to where you could never get close to pure CO2, but are there any advantages to a mostly CO2 tubeless setup? In other words, what if I choose to waste a couple of my CO2 cartridges to inflate the tires instead of the pump or compressor? Total and complete waste of CO2 cartridges? I was thinking in terms of air seepage and rubber breakdown.


Nitrogen is where it is at.

Seriously though, dont waste your CO2 cartridges (and clog up the landfill with the discarded units).


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

BuickGN said:


> Thanks for the calculator in that previous post. I ran some numbers through it and at my 240lbs with 30/33psi it would be the same as a 170lb person running 10psi less front and rear. I'm glad I gave up trying to run <30psi like many people do a while ago. It already looks like I'm pushing the safety margin with my current pressures.


It's worth it to keep in mind that it's not just weight that is a factor. Tires make a very big difference. I'm around 210 and I run some tires in the low 20's and lower, even at dh parks. There are other tires I would not consider running less than 27/28 on just about any kind of trail. You can feel (or at least I do) the difference with what tires will let you get away with what. The tires I run in the low 20's feel very solid, with the other ones, if I go below 27 (especially) on the rear, I can feel the tire flex and roll laterally.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Lol nitrogen. I was over that a looong time ago. The last car it went in was my GN and that didn't last long either. I use a balance tube to both rear tires with a "T" to the gauge to make sure they're both at exactly the same pressure right before a run. One tire is in the air in first gear (the steering wheel is useless) and you really can't steer it through second gear (60mph) with the lack of weight on the front so if the tires aren't perfectly matched the car will want to turn and there's not much you can do besides back off the power. I tried nitrogen hoping it would keep the tires at the same pressure but it wasn't even close. All it took was for one side to face the sun and there would be a 2-3psi difference. Direct sun was a lot more than that. I got over nitrogen quickly. I figured the same with CO2 but thought I would ask just in case there were some tire longevity benefits.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Rims that came with the bike are "tubeless ready" but tires are not, so I'll wait (at least) until I wear out this set of tires. Flats haven't been a problem, so I'm certainly not in a great hurry to change.

There is a whole thread about the difficulty (read impossibility when trailside) of getting certain tires off of certain rims, and it seems to be a given that tubeless tires are much harder to get on and off than conventional ones. What sort of extra tools are people carrying to get the tire off the rim?


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## billj121 (Jul 29, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> Does anyone have a preference on CO2 vs "air"? I know there's already C02 in the air and there would be plenty air just sitting in the tire at 0psi to where you could never get close to pure CO2, but are there any advantages to a mostly CO2 tubeless setup? In other words, what if I choose to waste a couple of my CO2 cartridges to inflate the tires instead of the pump or compressor? Total and complete waste of CO2 cartridges? I was thinking in terms of air seepage and rubber breakdown.


I don't have any data or sources or even vast quantities of personal experience to back it up, but have always heard that Co2 is a smaller molecule and will leak out of tires faster than basic pumped air.

Some will even empty a tire filled with a Co2 cartridge when they get home so they can refill with air.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> There is a whole thread about the difficulty (read impossibility when trailside) of getting certain tires off of certain rims, and it seems to be a given that tubeless tires are much harder to get on and off than conventional ones. What sort of extra tools are people carrying to get the tire off the rim?


Impossible? Maybe difficult, a pair of decent levers should suffice trailside. Some conventional tubed combinations can be a total bear too, but my wtb's have been no harder to install tires on than any I had in my pre-tubeless days. I can get the tires on and off by hand but I carry a lever to make it a little easier.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

billj121 said:


> I don't have any data or sources or even vast quantities of personal experience to back it up, but have always heard that Co2 is a smaller molecule and will leak out of tires faster than basic pumped air.
> 
> Some will even empty a tire filled with a Co2 cartridge when they get home so they can refill with air.


CO2 does bleed out faster than air from a pump. When I used CO2 on my road bike...the tire will almost completely flat by the next morning. The CO2 is pretty much there to get you back rolling again.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> it seems to be a given that tubeless tires are much harder to get on and off than conventional ones. What sort of extra tools are people carrying to get the tire off the rim?


Perhaps there are some tubeless tire brands that are a problem to remove, but in my years, I guess that I haven't found them. I remove (and reinstall) all of my tires by hand without the use of a tire lever, but I always carry one just in case.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have had only a few tires over the years that I couldn't seat with just my hands....technique......

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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

Been tinking about trying this on my HT. Not that I have ever had a pinch flat at 33 psi, But I like to tinker on things too LOL. I can't leave nothin stock


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

I gave tubeless another shot after a disastrous attempt several years ago. I kept shredding a set of Kenda Negals I had set up with Stans; it was a nightmare. Recently, I got set of Stan's Flow rims and Han Dampf tires. I was skeptical but they set up quick and easy and hold air perfectly. I gotta say love the low tire pressure and weight savings.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

So just an update on my tires, I contacted Maxxis and they were very helpful (early in the process)...sent them pictures of the tiny little pin holes in the sidewalls that were leaking in a dunk tank...filled out all their forms...emailed each other back and forth. Then the claims department got a hold of my claim and wanted to obtain my tires for "further testing". I was given about 15 hours notice that UPS would be at my doorstep and I was to package my tires and send them to Maxxis - if they found they were faulty, they'd replace them. If not? I'd have to pay for shipping if I wanted them back. I emailed them and told them I couldn't meet the deadline for UPS, and that I still wanted to do it...haven't heard back.

I'm not sure I'm going to bother at this point - which is what I imagine they want - because I don't really know how legitimate their testing and finding of my tire would be. I already sent photos that showed the air coming out of the sidewalls....I already sent forms...I already described the incident clearly and had many email exchanges. So I don't think it's worth it...again what they probably want.


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## BluePitch (Sep 13, 2009)

When I filled out the warranty claim the first pick up was the next day. Then UPS would come back two times if I couldn't make the first pick up. What's so difficult about that? Mail them back and let them take a look. Companies just want to make sure of their product, and not be taken advantage of. I got my tire back in a couple of weeks....yes it's a long time, but it was covered by their warranty.

Read below for Maxxis response.....


After reviewing your online warranty claim submission, we have determined that an in-house inspection is necessary to process your claim. Attached you will find your claim notification letter with claim number, as well as a claim summary form. A call tag has been issued in order to ship your tire back to the warranty office. UPS will attempt their first of three pick-up efforts on 10/14/15. All you will need to do is simply place the tire in a sealed box at your door; UPS will arrive with the label necessary for shipping. In the event you are unable to make the UPS pick-up, but want to continue with the claim, it will be up to you to ship the tire without reimbursement.

Please let me know if you have any questions about the claim itself or need further information for returning the tire in question.


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## inter (Nov 27, 2010)

OP, you may have bad tires, send them back.
I never have any problem with tubeles, various tires and rim combo tr or non tr.
I have used stan and trucker co cream before, worked good, no problem whatsoever.
I now use homebrew sealant, it is visibly a bit thicker than stan, and last longer too.

I notice the sidewall seepage is a lot less than stan because my homebrew sealant is thicker.

I suggest you get a new tire, and start over again with gorilla tape. Don't give up on tubeless yet.
Good luck.


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## baja07 (Sep 10, 2010)

I have zero issues with maxxis tires and orange seal. My tires hold air for weeks before I need to get the pump out to dial air pressure back in. During the summer months the sealant has dried up in the tires with out my knowledge and they still held air excellent.

I think its important to have correct tubeless wheel set as well as good tires. I have been using Giant carbon set they offer. Its incredibly hard to break the bead with orange seal with this combo. I have also played with non-tubless wheel sets and they just don't work well and can be a pain.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

BluePitch said:


> When I filled out the warranty claim the first pick up was the next day. Then UPS would come back two times if I couldn't make the first pick up. What's so difficult about that? Mail them back and let them take a look. Companies just want to make sure of their product, and not be taken advantage of. I got my tire back in a couple of weeks....yes it's a long time, but it was covered by their warranty.
> 
> Read below for Maxxis response.....
> 
> ...


ok good to hear, I just got the vibe of...yeah we are going to test your tires...nudge nudge wink wink...oh and by the way get those tires off your rim and have them to the UPS guy, who will be on your doorstep less than 12 hours from when this email was sent (which he did)...and if we don't deem them faulty you'll pay for the shipping to have them returned to you (and who knows when you'll get them back). That's just the way I felt.

But hearing that they actually gave you new tires makes me believe it's worth sending the tires back to them, and perhaps I'm wrong.


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## BluePitch (Sep 13, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> ok good to hear, I just got the vibe of...yeah we are going to test your tires...nudge nudge wink wink...oh and by the way get those tires off your rim and have them to the UPS guy, who will be on your doorstep less than 12 hours from when this email was sent (which he did)...and if we don't deem them faulty you'll pay for the shipping to have them returned to you (and who knows when you'll get them back). That's just the way I felt.
> 
> But hearing that they actually gave you new tires makes me believe it's worth sending the tires back to them, and perhaps I'm wrong.


There are a lot of shady people out there, Maxxis is just being careful. If they rejected your claim without seeing the tires I would be concerned. The fact that they are paying for shipping is good. Now that doesn't mean you will be covered, but your chances are good....at least that's the way I see it.

In my case only my back tire was bad, so I went out and bought a tire to ride while this was being done. Did I read you were from New England? Its a good time to be patient.

On the tires going flat, I have been to three Santa Cruz Dealers this year looking for a Bronson or Nomad and all three of the shops brand new 2016 Bronsons were on the floor with flats. I would look to the installation of the tubeless by the shop as the cause.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

I would send the tires to Maxxis.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Even if the tires have some pinhole leaks the sealant should seal them up. Fast leaks are usually tape or valve stem related.

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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

BluePitch said:


> There are a lot of shady people out there, Maxxis is just being careful. If they rejected your claim without seeing the tires I would be concerned. The fact that they are paying for shipping is good. Now that doesn't mean you will be covered, but your chances are good....at least that's the way I see it.
> 
> In my case only my back tire was bad, so I went out and bought a tire to ride while this was being done. Did I read you were from New England? Its a good time to be patient.
> 
> On the tires going flat, I have been to three Santa Cruz Dealers this year looking for a Bronson or Nomad and all three of the shops brand new 2016 Bronsons were on the floor with flats. I would look to the installation of the tubeless by the shop as the cause.


Wow, all three Bronson's had flats? I know with the Santa Cruz bikes the LBS has to basically put that entire bike together, so perhaps they rush and don't do the setup on the tires correctly. I thought mine were ok...and I've since sealed them again, but there's just so many tiny little holes on the sidewalls that it's tough to keep in them. I do scrape up against rocks, etc, but isn't that to be expected with mountain biking? I'll contact Maxxis again and see if I can send mine in.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Those tires had NO sealant in them. They won't add sealant to showroom tires.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> Wow, all three Bronson's had flats? I know with the Santa Cruz bikes the LBS has to basically put that entire bike together, so perhaps they rush and don't do the setup on the tires correctly. I thought mine were ok...and I've since sealed them again, but there's just so many tiny little holes on the sidewalls that it's tough to keep in them. I do scrape up against rocks, etc, but isn't that to be expected with mountain biking? I'll contact Maxxis again and see if I can send mine in.


How much sealant are you using?

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Some people take their bikes to the bike shop to change/fix flat tires and tubes.

These people should not be running tubeless or handling any kinds of tools


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

Jayem said:


> Some people take their bikes to the bike shop to change/fix flat tires and tubes.
> 
> These people should not be running tubeless or handling any kinds of tools


I'll never understand it. Some people may just be to busy to deal with it, but having a basic ability to service your own bike is just as important as knowing proper riding skills in my book. In reality, takes less time to do it yourself than going to the shop and then going back to pick it up, so it makes no sense. 
I seem to always be fixing these guys bikes on the trail when I ride with them. It's ok of its a girl, it's understandable. I don't know any good riders that can't work on their own bikes tho, male or female


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

guitarjohn21 said:


> I'll never understand it. Some people may just be to busy to deal with it, but having a basic ability to service your own bike is just as important as knowing proper riding skills in my book. In reality, takes less time to do it yourself than going to the shop and then going back to pick it up, so it makes no sense.
> I seem to always be fixing these guys bikes on the trail when I ride with them. It's ok of its a girl, it's understandable. I don't know any good riders that can't work on their own bikes tho, male or female


why is it OK/understandable if its a girl?


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Occasionally a seemingly avid cyclist will have me change a tube for him at the shop... Sometimes I know them well enough to ask 'why don't you do this yourself, how do you change them when on a ride?' Usually they say something like 'I can, I just would rather you do it... When I get a flat I call for a ride.' Not my style, but I guess if you can afford it why not? I love making easy money for the shop.


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## billj121 (Jul 29, 2011)

Agreed, if you're riding a bike you are capable of at least minor upkeep, maint, and repairs, regardless of your internal plumbing.


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

mik_git said:


> why is it OK/understandable if its a girl?


It just is...lol
Really tho, most girls aren't that mechanically inclined. You know what I mean. Some are and that's great, but most don't work on cars, or fix the lawnmower. It's nice to see them out there on the trails so I'll give them a pass...


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

guitarjohn21 said:


> It just is...lol
> Really tho, most girls aren't that mechanically inclined


ANd there are a lot of guys that way too.
personally, I do 90% of my own stuff... but it is something I truly hate doing, so i can see why people wouldn't want to do it.

hmm...see i dont' work on cars, or even own a lawnmower. Have mates that will tear a car down and build it up again, me I just hand the keys to the service guy and say, fix all that stuff thanks.


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

mik_git said:


> ANd there are a lot of guys that way too.
> personally, I do 90% of my own stuff... but it is something I truly hate doing, so i can see why people wouldn't want to do it.
> 
> hmm...see i dont' work on cars, or even own a lawnmower. Have mates that will tear a car down and build it up again, me I just hand the keys to the service guy and say, fix all that stuff thanks.


Yeah, I dont work on cars anymore either. 
Haven't mowed a lawn in 40 years either.
Guess you've missed my point,

Did I wind up on a roadie forum or something? Getting a little too b****y for me here. C-ya


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

guitarjohn21 said:


> It just is...lol
> Really tho, most girls aren't that mechanically inclined. You know what I mean. Some are and that's great, but most don't work on cars, or fix the lawnmower. It's nice to see them out there on the trails so I'll give them a pass...


Most girls aren't that adrenaline-inclined either... But tons still are and they're more likely to be represented on this forum than in your daily life. I don't think your assumption was offensive to others, moreso just an indicator of your limited perspective on the world. Feel free to consider that 'too b****y.'


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^absolutely.

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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

I did ghetto gorilla tape tubeless conversion on some cheap Mavic M319's & had no problems other than a Kenda Honey Badger with sidewalls like a screen door.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

guitarjohn21 said:


> Yeah, I dont work on cars anymore either.
> Haven't mowed a lawn in 40 years either.
> Guess you've missed my point,
> 
> Did I wind up on a roadie forum or something? Getting a little too b****y for me here. C-ya


When you mentioned on the previous post about bikers should be willing and able to do basic maintenance, I thought... if they aren't a road biker. lol

I was in the lbs one day picking up an odd part that the service guys found laying around in their tool boxes or something and this roadie is in their picking out one of those storage pouches that hangs underneath the seat. He asked the service guy "how much to install this?" Service guy replies, "oh, around $15 bucks". Roadie guy: "ok, would you be able to do that now while I wait?". I thought to myself, man I don't really belong in this place. I've also been told by an employee of the same shop that they don't really like to deal with mountain bikers because they don't make much money on them. He went on the say because mountain bikers will buy parts cheaper online and usually don't mind doing maintenance themselves. But this is a bike shop that stocks and sells as much mountain bikes as road bikes if not more, so it's not at all just a "road bike shop". Most shops at least where I live only want customers that walk in there and are ready to buy whatever the sales or service guys tells them they need. Anyway, it usually is a definite different mentality between those that ride mountain bikes and those that ride road bikes.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

I see this attitude all the time in the car industry and it's not a good thing. People will get on a board and say their automatic transmission equipped car will not move when it's cold but works ok when warm or slips when cornering hard. The first thing I ask is how is the fluid level and how does the fluid look/smell. The usual replay is how do I check the level and smell. There are more and more grown men that can't change their oil or check fluid levels in a car. It's weird.

I do my work myself mostly because I don't trust anyone else. I worked in the industry many years ago and I know what goes on when no one is watching. I really didn't want to do the valve adjustment and timing belt/water pump/thermostat/idler/tensioner/motor mounts/serpentine belt/idler/tensioner/alternator/heater water control valve, and radiator cap which took up my 3 day weekend. I would pay someone to do it but I trust no one to go that deep into the car. I wouldn't even get my battery replaced under warranty, I paid for a new one and did it myself because I knew the dealer would screw something else up while doing the battery. On the fiancée's car, against my will, we took it in for a warranty battery replacement and got it back with a torn MAF hose and an alternator that went out shortly thereafter due to a loose connection at the battery. I got to say I told you so to her. We also took it in to get the oil changed because we were on the way out of town on a long trip and I didn't have time to change it and it would have been way past due by the time we got back. I brought them my $12/qt oil and $16 filter. My oil has lots of ZDDP and moly which makes it darker than most oils right out of the bottle and after a few heat cycles, considerably darker than most other oils. I noticed the oil looked awful light in color. The next oil change after that I did myself and found the old, cheap filter still on it. They stole my expensive filter, never changed it and we went another 5,000 miles on top of the previous 5,000 miles. In all likelihood they kept my expensive oil and used whatever bulk oil they had lying around.

This is why in this world where practically no one is honest, especially when it's behind your back and they think they can get away with anything, you have to know how to do at least basic work to your cars/bikes. I couldn't imagine having to take the bike in to have brakes adjusted or for any other small thing. It's all so easy and for me it's fun. I hate having to rely on others. Now that I'm older I have the money to pay people to fix my stuff but I don't have the trust.

My friend's '15 Remedy seemed to be assembled well at our huge LBS with a service department that always gets high praise. When I upgraded the rotors and pads I found tons of stuff that they screwed up. That was the one shop that I let touch my bike but never again. I do not do wheels so I let them tension my spokes but I'll look around for another place now.

Just my view after working in the industry and being on both sides.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

BuickGN said:


> I see this attitude all the time in the car industry and it's not a good thing. People will get on a board and say their automatic transmission equipped car will not move when it's cold but works ok when warm or slips when cornering hard. The first thing I ask is how is the fluid level and how does the fluid look/smell. The usual replay is how do I check the level and smell. There are more and more grown men that can't change their oil or check fluid levels in a car. It's weird.
> 
> I do my work myself mostly because I don't trust anyone else. I worked in the industry many years ago and I know what goes on when no one is watching. I really didn't want to do the valve adjustment and timing belt/water pump/thermostat/idler/tensioner/motor mounts/serpentine belt/idler/tensioner/alternator/heater water control valve, and radiator cap which took up my 3 day weekend. I would pay someone to do it but I trust no one to go that deep into the car. I wouldn't even get my battery replaced under warranty, I paid for a new one and did it myself because I knew the dealer would screw something else up while doing the battery. On the fiancée's car, against my will, we took it in for a warranty battery replacement and got it back with a torn MAF hose and an alternator that went out shortly thereafter due to a loose connection at the battery. I got to say I told you so to her. We also took it in to get the oil changed because we were on the way out of town on a long trip and I didn't have time to change it and it would have been way past due by the time we got back. I brought them my $12/qt oil and $16 filter. My oil has lots of ZDDP and moly which makes it darker than most oils right out of the bottle and after a few heat cycles, considerably darker than most other oils. I noticed the oil looked awful light in color. The next oil change after that I did myself and found the old, cheap filter still on it. They stole my expensive filter, never changed it and we went another 5,000 miles on top of the previous 5,000 miles. In all likelihood they kept my expensive oil and used whatever bulk oil they had lying around.
> 
> ...


I agree completely. The biggest thing is the trust factor. I know I can service my stuff better than them... simply because it's my stuff, I have my best interest in mind (they certainly don't), and I won't rip myself off. lol

Another thing is the time it takes. If a part has to be ordered, I can have it delivered to my door faster than the shop can get it (and most always pay a lot less). Then I can put it on and go riding rather than leaving the bike at the shop for a day, two, or more, wondering how far down the priority list I am. I'm the same way with cars and motorcycles. I haven't been to the shop in a long time except for state inspections.


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## BluePitch (Sep 13, 2009)

pb123hou said:


> When you mentioned on the previous post about bikers should be willing and able to do basic maintenance, I thought... if they aren't a road biker. lol
> 
> I was in the lbs one day picking up an odd part that the service guys found laying around in their tool boxes or something and this roadie is in their picking out one of those storage pouches that hangs underneath the seat. He asked the service guy "how much to install this?" Service guy replies, "oh, around $15 bucks". Roadie guy: "ok, would you be able to do that now while I wait?". I thought to myself, man I don't really belong in this place. I've also been told by an employee of the same shop that they don't really like to deal with mountain bikers because they don't make much money on them. He went on the say because mountain bikers will buy parts cheaper online and usually don't mind doing maintenance themselves. But this is a bike shop that stocks and sells as much mountain bikes as road bikes if not more, so it's not at all just a "road bike shop". Most shops at least where I live only want customers that walk in there and are ready to buy whatever the sales or service guys tells them they need. Anyway, it usually is a definite different mentality between those that ride mountain bikes and those that ride road bikes.


This sounds like the bike store in my home town. I refuse to shop there anymore.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

pb123hou said:


> When you mentioned on the previous post about bikers should be willing and able to do basic maintenance, I thought... if they aren't a road biker. lol
> 
> I was in the lbs one day picking up an odd part that the service guys found laying around in their tool boxes or something and this roadie is in their picking out one of those storage pouches that hangs underneath the seat. He asked the service guy "how much to install this?" Service guy replies, "oh, around $15 bucks". Roadie guy: "ok, would you be able to do that now while I wait?". I thought to myself, man I don't really belong in this place. I've also been told by an employee of the same shop that they don't really like to deal with mountain bikers because they don't make much money on them. He went on the say because mountain bikers will buy parts cheaper online and usually don't mind doing maintenance themselves. But this is a bike shop that stocks and sells as much mountain bikes as road bikes if not more, so it's not at all just a "road bike shop". Most shops at least where I live only want customers that walk in there and are ready to buy whatever the sales or service guys tells them they need. Anyway, it usually is a definite different mentality between those that ride mountain bikes and those that ride road bikes.


What a $hitty assumption...I don't ride with/know any roadies who don't fix their own stuff. Most of the best mtb'ers I have ever known are also (better sit down)...roadies.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> How much sealant are you using?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Whatever it initially came with and whatever the recommended ounces where the second time around from Stans...I forget, is it 2 ounces?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

For a 29er tire that is leaking, I would use 2 red Stan's scoopers...2 oz per scoop so 4 oz.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

pb123hou said:


> When you mentioned on the previous post about bikers should be willing and able to do basic maintenance, I thought... if they aren't a road biker. lol
> 
> I was in the lbs one day picking up an odd part that the service guys found laying around in their tool boxes or something and this roadie is in their picking out one of those storage pouches that hangs underneath the seat. He asked the service guy "how much to install this?" Service guy replies, "oh, around $15 bucks"....


Lol, that's so funny. ..
I think you and BuickGN got my point. I don't know what @TheDwayyo's beef with my comment was, as far as having a limited view of the world, but I see many more females that can't work on their bike for every one I see who can. It's just my observation, I'm in California most of the time, but I see it elsewhere as well. Plenty of guys don't know much beyond changing a tube, usually noobs, the entitled gen, or Dirt-Roadies. 
I spend a lot if time at bike parks in summer, so there is a rental-bike customer factor that plays into my view. When I'm not on the DH trails, I basically go out with 2 tubes (on AM rides) and many times come back with one. 
I do enjoy helping people, so it is not a big deal.

Anyway, been riding ALL day. I made the right choices in life so I can do that.
Dinnertime, 
Cheers!


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

BuickGN said:


> I see this attitude all the time in the car industry and it's not a good thing. People will get on a board and say their automatic transmission equipped car will not move when it's cold but works ok when warm or slips when cornering hard. The first thing I ask is how is the fluid level and how does the fluid look/smell. The usual replay is how do I check the level and smell. There are more and more grown men that can't change their oil or check fluid levels in a car. It's weird.
> 
> I do my work myself mostly because I don't trust anyone else. I worked in the industry many years ago and I know what goes on when no one is watching. I really didn't want to do the valve adjustment and timing belt/water pump/thermostat/idler/tensioner/motor mounts/serpentine belt/idler/tensioner/alternator/heater water control valve, and radiator cap which took up my 3 day weekend. I would pay someone to do it but I trust no one to go that deep into the car. I wouldn't even get my battery replaced under warranty, I paid for a new one and did it myself because I knew the dealer would screw something else up while doing the battery. On the fiancée's car, against my will, we took it in for a warranty battery replacement and got it back with a torn MAF hose and an alternator that went out shortly thereafter due to a loose connection at the battery. I got to say I told you so to her. We also took it in to get the oil changed because we were on the way out of town on a long trip and I didn't have time to change it and it would have been way past due by the time we got back. I brought them my $12/qt oil and $16 filter. My oil has lots of ZDDP and moly which makes it darker than most oils right out of the bottle and after a few heat cycles, considerably darker than most other oils. I noticed the oil looked awful light in color. The next oil change after that I did myself and found the old, cheap filter still on it. They stole my expensive filter, never changed it and we went another 5,000 miles on top of the previous 5,000 miles. In all likelihood they kept my expensive oil and used whatever bulk oil they had lying around.
> 
> ...


The problem with newer cars is its getting harder to work on them, you mention checking transmission fluid, but in most cars there is no longer a dipstick. In my car supposedly the fluid is "lifetime", which is crap, so I changed it. Do you know how I had to check my fluid level? I had to jump the pins in the DLC, which brought the computer into "fluid check mode", then I had to move my shifter 7 times between neutral and drive, which would allow me to wait for the drive indicator to illuminate on the dash. When it did, I had to put the car up into the air, pull an overflow check plug from the bottom of the pan and allow the fluid to spill from a "light stream". The tranny temp needed to be somewhere around 190 degrees. Now I wasn't going to trust a dealer to do this and I wasn't going to run it through a flush machine either. I had to go through all this crap just to get it righ, and from what the people at the dealer told me, if I didn't get it right I'd be putting a new 8k dollar transmission in it in two weeks. 40 thousand miles later and it's fine.

BMW doesn't even have an oil dipstick anymore - I was helping someone change their oil and the only way to check the level was through the computer. How ridiculous is that? And then they tell you that you can go 15k miles between oil changes. This is the same company that doesn't know how to install direct injection in their vehicles. Every 40k miles you have to remove the intake manifold and walnut blast the intakes valves off to free it from carbon...you ever do that? It's a pain.

But it makes me laugh about these dealers...you don't know what they are putting in your car for fluids. They say it's synthetic, but I've worked for dealers...what we are pumping in is not synthetic...it's not weven name brand half the time. And the prices of this stuff?? Toyota Super Long Life Coolant is $25 bucks a gallon! Some are even higher. But if you don't use the right coolant it can destroy the seals on your water pump nowadays...they all tell you that...yet Toyota had a rash of early water pump failures going before 80k miles in the Tundras. My Lexus LS 460 has been bullet proof though, although some have reported the same thing. Speaking of my car, it has direct injection and port injection, so I never have to worry about the carbon build up on the intake valves (the port injectors spray on them). But next week I'll be changing all 8 of my front control arms...8 of them!! Lexus wants $3,800 to do it...I can do it myself for $529, with aftermarket parts, which is what I'll do. Easily.

I just wish my damn tires would stop losing air on my Santa Cruz. Lol.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> Whatever it initially came with and whatever the recommended ounces where the second time around from Stans...I forget, is it 2 ounces?


That might be part of your problem. You're having sidewall leaks and you're only using 2 ounces?

I never use less than 3 ounces and usually 4 ounces (lot's of goatheads and penetrators here). If I have sidewall issues (like you have described and want warranty for) I add a little more Stan's and make sure the sidewalls get coated thoroughly. I've never had issues with sidewall leaks after a thorough coating.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

Doublebase said:


> Wow, all three Bronson's had flats? I know with the Santa Cruz bikes the LBS has to basically put that entire bike together, so perhaps they rush and don't do the setup on the tires correctly. I thought mine were ok...and I've since sealed them again, but there's just so many tiny little holes on the sidewalls that it's tough to keep in them. I do scrape up against rocks, etc, but isn't that to be expected with mountain biking? I'll contact Maxxis again and see if I can send mine in.


There are a lot of tires that have thin sidewalls that offer little protection. I've used those in the past. I got tired of sidewalls wearing out before the knobbies did. If you're going to use Maxxis tires make sure you get the ones with EXO protection. Other manufacturers offer tires with thicker sidewalls too. They also work a lot better with tubeless because there is a lot more support in the tire. I have some mtb tires that I can set on the floor and they stand up straight like a motorcycle or car tire. Other mtb tires will fall down flat to the floor if you try that - avoid those.


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## billj121 (Jul 29, 2011)

pb123hou said:


> There are a lot of tires that have thin sidewalls that offer little protection. I've used those in the past. I got tired of sidewalls wearing out before the knobbies did. If you're going to use Maxxis tires make sure you get the ones with EXO protection. Other manufacturers offer tires with thicker sidewalls too. They also work a lot better with tubeless because there is a lot more support in the tire. I have some mtb tires that I can set on the floor and they stand up straight like a motorcycle or car tire. Other mtb tires will fall down flat to the floor if you try that - avoid those.


Interesting thought, I guess I really haven't thought about that as an indicator of sidewall strength, but it makes perfect sense, and also meshes with experience and past failures I have had.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

guitarjohn21 said:


> Lol, that's so funny. ..
> I think you and BuickGN got my point. I don't know what @TheDwayyo's beef with my comment was, as far as having a limited view of the world, but I see many more females that can't work on their bike for every one I see who can. It's just my observation, I'm in California most of the time, but I see it elsewhere as well. Plenty of guys don't know much beyond changing a tube, usually noobs, the entitled gen, or Dirt-Roadies.
> I spend a lot if time at bike parks in summer, so there is a rental-bike customer factor that plays into my view. When I'm not on the DH trails, I basically go out with 2 tubes (on AM rides) and many times come back with one.
> I do enjoy helping people, so it is not a big deal.
> ...


Don't really have a beef, just thought it was worth posting a bit of a caveat to your assumptions.

Most men actually don't work on their cars or lawnmowers (besides simple fixes of course) either. The fact is most _humans_ aren't super mechanically inclined... That's why car, small engine and bike mechanics exist.

It is probably fair to say that of all the people who ride bikes (let's say four times a year minimum) the men are more likely to work on them themselves, but I think when we are talking about enthusiast-level mountain bikers I'd be willing to bet that gap shrinks or even disappears.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

To the sidewall wear...the last several tires I have had all had the sidewalls wear out before the knobs. Specialized S-Works casings....but I'm a bit of a weight weenie.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

My Bontrager XR4s look brand new on the tread... The sidewalls are starting to concern me though. They have about 500 miles on them.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> The problem with newer cars is its getting harder to work on them, you mention checking transmission fluid, but in most cars there is no longer a dipstick. In my car supposedly the fluid is "lifetime", which is crap, so I changed it. Do you know how I had to check my fluid level? I had to jump the pins in the DLC, which brought the computer into "fluid check mode", then I had to move my shifter 7 times between neutral and drive, which would allow me to wait for the drive indicator to illuminate on the dash. When it did, I had to put the car up into the air, pull an overflow check plug from the bottom of the pan and allow the fluid to spill from a "light stream". The tranny temp needed to be somewhere around 190 degrees. Now I wasn't going to trust a dealer to do this and I wasn't going to run it through a flush machine either. I had to go through all this crap just to get it righ, and from what the people at the dealer told me, if I didn't get it right I'd be putting a new 8k dollar transmission in it in two weeks. 40 thousand miles later and it's fine.
> 
> BMW doesn't even have an oil dipstick anymore - I was helping someone change their oil and the only way to check the level was through the computer. How ridiculous is that? And then they tell you that you can go 15k miles between oil changes. This is the same company that doesn't know how to install direct injection in their vehicles. Every 40k miles you have to remove the intake manifold and walnut blast the intakes valves off to free it from carbon...you ever do that? It's a pain.
> 
> ...


DI has been a problem with a lot of manufacturers, BMW is no worse. Fuel dilution and intake manifold/intake port deposits. It's caused from having no fuel squirting at the valve pocket to remove deposits and having an injector spraying the cylinder walls, washing the oil off and getting into the crank case. Toyota did it right by having a traditional port injected setup under light load and DI for everything else. The port injectors even running part time are enough to keep deposits at a reasonable level. No longer having the DI at idle helps a lot with fuel dilution in the oil. It's been a learning process for all. Some probably should have been tested longer. Even the gasoline detergents are playing catch up for DI cars. Shell does well by having additives that work post-combustion and help clean as they go through the PCV system. Nowhere nearly as good as a traditional port injection setup though. The NOACK value of an oil has now become a huge spec. Many are shooting for a 9 or lower since oil evaporation is a big part of deposits in the intake tract. I believe these cars should come with a catch can/separator for PCV vapors before being routed back into the intake tract but I'm sure it would be some kind of EPA violation.

15,000 miles between changes is fine under the right conditions. When you look at most cars that spec a very long interval they also hold 2-3x more oil then most cars. My friend's CL65 AMG holds over 12 quarts. 10,000 miles is fine for that capacity. My BMW holds only 5-6 quarts and while rated at 10,000 mile oil changes, it calls for ~5,000 mile oil changes from the computer in real life. I'm sure it would allow 10k if it were all freeway driving but it sees mostly city driving.

There are very few true synthetics out there (grp IV or V). Just about all of them including Mobil One "full synthetic" are group III with a tiny bit of group IV at best. Most are straight group III. Good oils but not worth the price and I stay away from Mobil and others that label their group III oils as synthetic. I use Redline because of it's ester group V base oil, lots of ZDDP, lots of moly, very high HTHSv for it's kinematic viscosity, it's polar nature, it's natural cleaning ability without detergents, etc. I don't mind paying $12 a quart for a true synthetic. I'm sure as hell not paying anywhere close to that much for Mobil One. The newer Dex VI ATF is pretty decent. It has to have a decent base oil to meet the viscosity requirements but still doesn't have to be synthetic. The "Lifetime" crap is a joke. In the second year of it's life, I did a drain and fill of the radiator of my TL. Tons of sand came out. It must have been left over from the block and head casting process. Imagine if that circulated for 10-15 years. BMW's old "lifetime" ATF was just plain old Dex III. We don't have a fluid today that would last a true 100k-200k without being highly oxidized and depleted of additives. It might be a different story if they use a truly exceptional ATF with an ester base and the best additive packages available while keeping temps at 160F.

Some of the newer cars are harder to check the fluid, at least for people that are used to the dipstick. I'm sure the new generation would prefer to have it displayed on a screen. I prefer to physically see the level on the dipstick any day. The people I refer to that don't know how to check the oil are Acura TL owners that have a traditional engine oil and ATF dipstick right in your face when you pop the hood and other cars with traditional dipsticks.

Cars IMO are not harder to work on these days. The techs have just gotten horrible. They no longer know how an engine works and how to properly diagnose. They rely on DTCs and when there's no code, they're lost. That's when they begin swapping out parts at the owner's expense which was never acceptable when I was in the industry. Techs these days are glorified parts swappers. Read the code and replace the part you think it might be. Troubleshooting an old car with points and condenser and a carburetor was much harder IMO. I came around right when we were transitioning from carbs and points to port injection and DIS. If you know the old school stuff, the transition into the electronics is so incredibly easy and you have a much better understanding of how it works.

I still change transmission fluid the same way on every car. Drain and refill the pan. Pull a cooler line. Start the engine and let it pump the old fluid in the converter into a bucket via the cooler line. Fill at about the same rate the fluid is coming out. The new and the old fluid do not mix and you have near 100% new fluid. Or you can just do a drain and refill of the pan at a shorter interval. Just like I do a drain and fill of the coolant every other year because the radiator is only half the fluid. I do the same to the "lifetime" powersteering fluid. I pull the reservoir and refill. It's a little over 1/3 of the fluid. I do it every other year and it takes 3-4 minutes. I'm still way ahead of the game that never change their fluid. I also use Magnefine filters for the trans and power steering.

Back to dipsticks and lack of them, I think the manufacturers are obviously trying to discourage customers from working on their cars. It's twofold, more money for the dealers but also because oil specs are becoming more and more important and using the wrong oil can mean disaster. My BMW only puts out 250hp at the wheels. However, it's a little 2.0l that makes over 200lbs of torque at 1,200rpm. Scale that up to a 6.0l and you've got 750hp and it's spread out over 8 or more cylinders and with more oil capacity. They spec a minimum HTHS to make sure the oil will handle the high torque at low rpm as well as not sheer at the 7,000rpm redline at a high specific output. If you throw a 0w-20 with a 2.6 HTHS in there you're going to be lucky to get 10,000 miles out of it. And also, as I said earlier, the NOACK value is becoming more important with DI so by making it hard for the customer to change the oil, they reduce warranty claims.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Tubeless to oil nerd discussion....wow....wouldn't have guessed that one.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

guitarjohn21 said:


> It just is...lol
> Really tho, most girls aren't that mechanically inclined. You know what I mean. Some are and that's great, but most don't work on cars, or fix the lawnmower. It's nice to see them out there on the trails so I'll give them a pass...


This is actually fairly logical - the less mechanically inclined guys will still go out and ride a lot, then spend ludicrous sums of money on basic maintenance tasks. The ladies that lack those skill are more likely to find other activities (or at least the majority I've encountered that are mechanically inclined enough to handle basic stuff are much harder to deter from riding).


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> Tubeless to oil nerd discussion....wow....wouldn't have guessed that one.


It already took the "girls aren't as mechanically inclined as guys" direction and the original topic is pretty much dead so oil nerd discussion here we come. I'm a nerd so it's actually interesting to me though DI is more interesting.


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## pb123hou (May 26, 2015)

guitarjohn21 said:


> It just is...lol
> Really tho, most girls aren't that mechanically inclined. You know what I mean. Some are and that's great, but most don't work on cars, or fix the lawnmower. It's nice to see them out there on the trails so I'll give them a pass...
> 
> 
> ...


What's really sad is that there are some girls that are willing to work on their bikes more than some of the _guys_?

The road biking and spandex wearing community do not approve of this comment


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I change my oil at 5,000-7,500 in my 2013 Ford Focus. I use regular Motorcraft 5w-20 syn-blend. Am I going to hell?


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> I change my oil at 5,000-7,500 in my 2013 Ford Focus. I use regular Motorcraft 5w-20 syn-blend. Am I going to hell?


No, it's actually a very good oil with excellent UOA reports. Just don't use Stan's. Ok I won't derail the thread anymore...I'm a suckah for oil/car talk.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

BuickGN, have you had problems with your Vanos system on the BMW?

As for oil, my oil change interval is 5k miles, but Lexus has since extended it to 10k on synthetic. I'm not all that comfortable going that far because it begins to use oil after 5k miles...the most I've gone is 8k, and I have a 9.1 quart sump. TGMO is supposedly the white unicorn of oils because of its advanced moly protection that supposedly is specially formulated for Lexus/Toyota. I don't know if I believe that - most like I don't - but VOA are outstanding...and people swear by it. I don't mind Mobil 1, even though it its group lll, they all do that, but the 0w20 has the better base stocks and is supposedly a group IV. My Lexus tranny fluid is Toyota WS fluid, which Toyota is pushing as "lifetime" in some application...it's not even synthetic, but it does have a very low viscosity. I don't believe in the "you don't have to change it for the life of your car", bull crap that Lexus fed down our throats because they save on Federal waste tax by producing a car that supposedly won't have to have its transmission fluid disposed of. It's BS.

I'm afraid of what DI can do to oil - that's a lot of fuel pressure - and it's a lot going past those rings, plus there have been reports that the fuel creates an abrasive in the oil that can create premature wear.

The TL is a nice car...nice acceleration. That's crazy you had block material come out of the radiator like that, but it does make some sense. I'm using a flow dynamics coolant flush machine right now on cars...works pretty good once you get the hand of it. It pulls a vacuum strong enough to pull open the thermostat and easily exchange all the fluid in minutes. It's pretty cool, easy and fast. I'm also flow dynamic's brake flush machine and even now have a tranny flush machine (which I'm not using because I too like to drop my pan), but it is easy to use and is very accurate in its measurements.

Ok, I apologize for derailing the thread...I just love oil talk...can't get enough. I never had a problem with my tubeless setup on my Pirreli's


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Doublebase said:


> I'm starting to think tubeless is more trouble than it's worth, I keep losing air and it's becoming a pain. I dunked the tire in a tank to find the leaks and the sidewalls are loaded with tiny pin holes around the tire. The bike store said this is normal and more sealant was needed...added more sealant. I'm not confident.
> 
> The guy at the bike store said, yeah it's a pain. Pretty soon I'll have so much sealant in there that my wheels will weigh ten pounds.
> 
> I'm thinking of going back to tubes, I've only had one pinch flat in my life and I run the pressures low enough. I actually think the tubes protect the rims a little bit...gives it one more layer of something to ease the impacts down a bit.


You are shaking the bottle really good, right? There are crystals/media which settles on the bottom. Not shaking a bottle of stans basically makes it like milk with no function.

Shake REALLY hard directly before pouring each time you pour.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Tubeless is amazing, besides having to re-tape sometimes when changing tires (if the bead has stuck to it and pulls the tape up) there are nothing but pros to tubeless in my experience. Use it for MTB and CX.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

GSJ1973 said:


> You are shaking the bottle really good, right? There are crystals/media which settles on the bottom. Not shaking a bottle of stans basically makes it like milk with no function.
> 
> Shake REALLY hard directly before pouring each time you pour.


Not only do you need to shake the bottle, you have to invert it and allow the bits (cornmeal I believe) to settle Toby he nozzle before filling the scooper.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Not only do you need to shake the bottle, you have to invert it and allow the bits (cornmeal I believe) to settle Toby he nozzle before filling the scooper.


Yup. I didn't make it mast the first couple pages and didn't see the obvious posted yet....


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> No, it's actually a very good oil with excellent UOA reports. Just don't use Stan's. Ok I won't derail the thread anymore...I'm a suckah for oil/car talk.


This is not at all toward you, just speaking in general to UOAs and the newer BITOG crowd. Please excuse the chip on my shoulder lol. I hate to even bring it up but UOA wear metal section is beyond worthless for determining engine wear and an oil's level of protection. UOAs are good for catching coolant in the oil, fuel dilution, a bad air filter, oxidized oil, TBN and TAN, etc. The wear metals section of the typical spectro wear metal section is a scam. I can't believe so many people accept it and don't question it. BITOG where the average "expert" doesn't know the first thing about an engine, they just begin regurgitating what they hear others saying within 2 days of signing up and think they're so smart for recommending the thinnest oils known to man for every application and the longest OCIs possible don't even question the validity of the wear metals section.

The spectro can only see very small particles, 3-5 microns, the ones the filter is not capable of catching. It's been shown the excessive wear typically produces large particles, larger than that test can "see" and sometimes large enough for the filter to pick up which also invalidates the test. Ever notice how 99% of the tests are within a very narrow range of wear metal percentage no matter if it's a Cummins diesel or a 2.0 4 banger Kia.

Going farther, good oils like Mobil One (even though they don't produce a true syn anymore) and Redline get bashed because the oxidation they remove from the engine shows up as wear metals. Ever wonder why wear metals will skyrocket when someone switches over to one of these great oils and gradually go down? It's right in this test's sweet spot in size.

I've torn down many engines. I've seen some that showed excessive wear metals that mic'd out to factory clearances. I've had my own engine in the GN self destructing with glittery oil, zero oil pressure at hot idle, upon teardown the rod bearings down to the shells, severe piston scuffing, and the pins nearly frozen in the pistons and the Blackstone wear metals showed my engine to be fine even though I could see the metal in the oil. It was producing large particles that the test wasn't picking up.

If you want a better indication, a particle count is one of two tests that will give a much more accurate indication as to what kind and how much wear is occurring. The best the typical spectro test is good for is if you get the oil tested frequently, once or twice per OCI and keep a database. Even then it's not accurate but sometimes you can catch an abnormality based on previous tests for that engine.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Doublebase said:


> BuickGN, have you had problems with your Vanos system on the BMW?
> 
> As for oil, my oil change interval is 5k miles, but Lexus has since extended it to 10k on synthetic. I'm not all that comfortable going that far because it begins to use oil after 5k miles...the most I've gone is 8k, and I have a 9.1 quart sump. TGMO is supposedly the white unicorn of oils because of its advanced moly protection that supposedly is specially formulated for Lexus/Toyota. I don't know if I believe that - most like I don't - but VOA are outstanding...and people swear by it. I don't mind Mobil 1, even though it its group lll, they all do that, but the 0w20 has the better base stocks and is supposedly a group IV. My Lexus tranny fluid is Toyota WS fluid, which Toyota is pushing as "lifetime" in some application...it's not even synthetic, but it does have a very low viscosity. I don't believe in the "you don't have to change it for the life of your car", bull crap that Lexus fed down our throats because they save on Federal waste tax by producing a car that supposedly won't have to have its transmission fluid disposed of. It's BS.
> 
> ...


I've only got a second but you're completely right about DI. There was a study that GM did many years ago when port fuel injection was coming around that showed a 300% reduction in engine wear, especially upper cylinder wall and ring wear in the fuel injected models vs the exact same engine carbureted. I feel that DI takes some of that back. Time will tell. The best thing you can do is to change the oil more often until everything is sorted out. The 3,000 mile OCI might be back lol.

Obviously DI allows compression ratios that used to be only race gas territory which is awesome for mpg. Not much difference in power though. It also is a match made in heaven for turbocharging. Cars are running boost levels on 87 octane now that used to only be possible on race gas and they're doing so with a fairly high compression ratio so mpg doesn't take a hit.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> I change my oil at 5,000-7,500 in my 2013 Ford Focus. I use regular Motorcraft 5w-20 syn-blend. Am I going to hell?


You're definitely going to hell, oil hell lol.

In other forums where oil is actually the topic of the thread, I usually qualify my statements up front with most engines will outlast the cars they're in with just about any oil available that meets the required specs. There's rarely a need to run a synthetic or anything other than what's on sale at Walmart. I have reasons for running what I run but I won't get into that on here.

Those specs are becoming more important though, as I mentioned. The load on a rod journal bearing with over 250lbs of torque split over only 4 cylinders at a low 1,200rpm requires a higher than average HTHS and this is one instance where wear will be severe enough that catastrophic engine failure can result in a short time if the owner went from a 0w-40 with a 4.0 HTHS to a 0w-20 with a 2.6 HTHS. To clarify, it's all 3 combined that ups the oil requirements (how much torque, at what rpm it's made, is it split over 4 bearings, 6, or 8 bearings). The new turbo technology is awesome for making small engines produce tons of torque at a lower rpm than their naturally aspirated V8 counter parts are capable of but it requires an oil that's "thicker" when inside the rod bearing and won't sheer when under severe stress and heat which is what the HTHS value tells us. A higher revving or larger engine NA car making the same power and torque will allow thinner oils to be used. If you take your NA car that specs a 5w-30 and run a 0w-20 in it, it's unlikely anything will go wrong. Of course, I'm leaving out oil temperature which is a huge factor in choice. Outside of the US, many of the same cars that spec only a 20wt here spec several different oils based on usage and ambient temps. Some that spec a 20wt here spec up to a 40wt in other countries. Without the government's interference they can recommend what's actually best based on the owner's driving habits and where the car is sold vs one weight fits all.

Freeway vs city driving is also a huge factor. The engine is more heavily loaded on average in the city and can turn up to 6 times more total revolutions in pure city driving than pure freeway driving. Factor in the oil will be up to full temp on the freeway and have time to vaporize any water and fuel contamination vs some city scenarios where it never gets above 150F on the short drive to work. 7,500 miles on the freeway is nothing. In the city, depending on your drive, it's a lot.

I'm done with the oil talk, I swear.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

BuickGN, that was easily the best oil analysis post I've ever read...and I've read a lot of them. Thanks.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

GSJ1973 said:


> You are shaking the bottle really good, right? There are crystals/media which settles on the bottom. Not shaking a bottle of stans basically makes it like milk with no function.
> 
> Shake REALLY hard directly before pouring each time you pour.


Yeah good advice. I have added more sealant (like many suggested to try) and it has made an improvement. I do actually see the sealant coming out of the tiny little holes on my sidewalls, but it seems to be sealing it somewhat.

So aside from the holes on the sides of my tires...and my initial shock of having flat tires two weeks after I bought the bike...and having to constantly add air...I have finally got it to the point where I can go a couple of rides without adding air. I'm going to call that fixed/progress.

And now that I know just to add more sealant, I'm good.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Oh, we're back to tires and sealant...

Have you just been adding more sealant, or are you ensuring the sidewalls are getting a thorough coating on both sides of that 'extra' sealant?


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> Oh, we're back to tires and sealant...
> 
> Have you just been adding more sealant, or are you ensuring the sidewalls are getting a thorough coating on both sides of that 'extra' sealant?


Meaning a coat on the outer sidewall too or both sides of the inside walls?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I run full synthetic Moble I Extended Life 15,000 mile oil in my truck. Although I could change it out at 15,000 miles I prefer to do so at 6K. And it's still very clear at that interval.

I don't run tubeless but suspect I will in the near future.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Oil....I have spent some time on the BITOG etc. as well as boards for my specific vehicles. My honest opinion is that folks nerd-out on oil (I get this, if you want to change your super-duper sun oil every 1K..go for it...completely unnecessary but whatever makes folks' happy) but at the end of the day, if you change your oil regularly (i.e. at least every 5K miles) with pretty much any oil your engine will out last you wanting to keep your car. I was driving my Focus 25K/year highway only and 7500 on the oil was fine. As you stated, city driving is different and more frequent OCIs are warranted. I will also say that v. few people likely meet the severe-duty use that warrants v. frequent oil changes. If you really want to start a battle about oil and OCIs, start a discussion regarding when its best to to the first OCI on a new car....oh Lord......the funny thing about the oil discussions is that there is v. little data to suggest that any of this makes a difference. There are v. few engines that blow from oil-related issues and lots of those are getting crappy oil changes at Jiffy Lube. For every person that did some crazy oil change regime since their car was new, there is someone else who didn't, just changed it when the book said, and their car lasted just as long. But I digress.....


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

The trick to a great tubeless setup is the final step, which is often overlooked. Fill a paint sprayer with Stan's and spray coat the entire wheel. Might as well spray the entire bike just for added rust protection.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I run full synthetic Moble I


DJ runs full synthetic Moble I INSTEAD of Stan's. It reduces rolling resistance.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> Meaning a coat on the outer sidewall too or both sides of the inside walls?


Seriously?


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> Seriously?


Lol, no.. But this is general discussion so everything is taken seriously.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> Lol, no.. But this is general discussion so everything is taken seriously.


Sidewall leaks are not uncommon. However, it is commonly practiced when installing a new tubeless tire, once it's beaded up and sealant installed to INTERNALLY coat the beads and sidewalls to seal any imperfections and tiny sidewall leaks. I do this on all new tubeless installations by rotating the built-up wheel and tire so that the sealant thoroughly coats all internal parts of the tire and bead to help ensure you have no issues.

Additionally, I bring the tire pressure up to maximum allowable pressure to assist in forcing the sealant into the tiniest of pores and voids to preface any future air leaks. Your maximum tire pressure might be limited by either maximum tire pressure or maximum allowable rim/tire pressure. Most maximum tire pressures are around 65 PSI, but your particular rim pressure limitation might be lower than the tires maximum. Proceed accordingly.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

There is a simple fact to consider:

A vast majority of products, when used correctly and appropriately, work and last as intended by the manufacturer. 

The biggest problem? People don't follow manufacturer's guidelines, they use them in different conditions then originally intended, they set them up/use them wrong, etc. An issue could come up where the manufacturer had limited testing or is very specific (as in potentially false advertising) on the actual use of the product, but that is a different issue. 

Perfect example of that "false advertising" mentioned above is if you look at a big box store bike selection. All those dumpy mountain bikes they sell? If you actually read the fine print and whatever else, it is not generally advised to take those bikes offroad. So when a person does take it offroad, and it falls apart, who is to blame? The person didn't use the bike as intended by the manufacturer, but also the manufacturer deceived the customer by assumption. 

Another fantastic example of this the ever ongoing issues of pinch flats. A pinch flat essentially is the result of not following manufacturer's guidelines in 95% of cases. Unless you hit a pothole with a roadie, or dig into a very jagged rock on a MTB, if you inflate to the manufacturer's guidelines, you won't flat out. Just most people run anywhere from 40-70% of the guideline. Tire says 50psi, average person will put in about 25-30psi. So who's fault is it when a flat occurs? 

In this case with the tubeless issue, I am guessing it was poor maintenance of the tire. Was the tire properly sealed to begin with? Did you let the bike sit outside in the elements for a long time and dryout/crack? Keep proper pressure in it? Again, a vast majority of people don't follow the guidelines. The only reason there aren't more issues is that higher end suppliers build in very robust safety factors because they know people don't follow the basic suggestions.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

TSpice said:


> Another fantastic example of this the ever ongoing issues of pinch flats. A pinch flat essentially is the result of not following manufacturer's guidelines in 95% of cases. Unless you hit a pothole with a roadie, or dig into a very jagged rock on a MTB, if you inflate to the manufacturer's guidelines, you won't flat out. Just most people run anywhere from 40-70% of the guideline. Tire says 50psi, average person will put in about 25-30psi. So who's fault is it when a flat occurs?


Seriously? Do you mountain bike singletrack with 50 psi?



TSpice said:


> In this case with the tubeless issue, I am guessing it was poor maintenance of the tire. Was the tire properly sealed to begin with? Did you let the bike sit outside in the elements for a long time and dryout/crack? Keep proper pressure in it? Again, a vast majority of people don't follow the guidelines. The only reason there aren't more issues is that higher end suppliers build in very robust safety factors because they know people don't follow the basic suggestions.


In your above statement, are you directly referring to the OP and his sealing issues with sidewalls? If so, his bike and tires were new.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> Seriously? Do you mountain bike singletrack with 50 psi?


Depends on the conditions, but generally 40-45 yes. If the conditions are softer, generally drop it down a little bit, but not by much.

I am always amused by the people that seem to be playing the game of "who can get a lower PSI and not flat out." So when my buddies who roll with 25-30psi and give me crap for my 45-50? They generally have to let me know when I stop, because otherwise they are too far behind me to talk smack.

They do have better stories of how they were stranded due to flats than I do, so I guess that is something.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Cleared2land said:


> Seriously? Do you mountain bike singletrack with 50 psi?


I did when I started... I literally never got a pinch flat.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

TSpice said:


> Depends on the conditions, but generally 40-45 yes. If the conditions are softer, generally drop it down a little bit, but not by much.
> 
> I am always amused by the people that seem to be playing the game of "who can get a lower PSI and not flat out." So when my buddies who roll with 25-30psi and give me crap for my 45-50? They generally have to let me know when I stop, because otherwise they are too far behind me to talk smack.
> 
> They do have better stories of how they were stranded due to flats than I do, so I guess that is something.


The pressure rating on the sidewall is the maximum safe pressure, not a suggestion to what you should run. Same with cars. It's a maximum. On cars it's a maximum cold rating, I would love to know if the rating for a bike is the maximum pressure period or when cold. Since bike tires hardly build any heat I assume it's absolute maximum pressure. By inflating to 50psi you are INCREASING rolling resistance off road and decreasing traction. I'm 240lbs, I ride all different terrain which includes rocky areas, I run ~33psi-36psi in the rear, 30psi up front, and I've never had a pinch flat or a flat period since going tubeless.

So you are saying you're ahead of your friends because you have more rolling resistance than them? That doesn't make sense. You don't have to push the limits, I keep a good safety margin, but lower the pressure to 35psi and enjoy noticeably decreased rolling resistance, better ride, and better traction. As others have said, weight is a huge factor in the pressure you need to run, how much do you weigh? If you're 350lbs, your 45-50psi is probably fine. If you're the typical 150-160lber you're way too high.

Do you also run abnormally high pressures in your fork and shock to where you only use 40% of your travel most of the time? Just wondering because most of the people I've run into that run high tire pressures also run high air spring pressures and believe they should not use more than 50% of their travel.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TSpice said:


> Perfect example of that "false advertising" mentioned above is if you look at a big box store bike selection. All those dumpy mountain bikes they sell? If you actually read the fine print and whatever else, it is not generally advised to take those bikes offroad. So when a person does take it offroad, and it falls apart, who is to blame? The person didn't use the bike as intended by the manufacturer, but also the manufacturer deceived the customer by assumption.
> 
> .


If they call it a Mountain Bike (which they do), it implies off road. If they use names on the side of the bike that imply extreme capability or strength (they do), it implies off road abilities. If they make them look like more serious "real" mountain bikes, with their frame shapes or suspension designs, they are trying to convince people they are the same thing. If they write in small letters that it's "not suitable for off road use" it doesn't excuse them for all the other forms of false advertising associated with the cheap bike. They are intentionally marketing it as a mountain bike IMO.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

BuickGN said:


> The pressure rating on the sidewall is the maximum safe pressure, not a suggestion to what you should run. Same with cars. It's a maximum. On cars it's a maximum cold rating, I would love to know if the rating for a bike is the maximum pressure period or when cold. Since bike tires hardly build any heat I assume it's absolute maximum pressure. By inflating to 50psi you are INCREASING rolling resistance off road and decreasing traction. I'm 240lbs, I ride all different terrain which includes rocky areas, I run ~33psi-36psi in the rear, 30psi up front, and I've never had a pinch flat or a flat period since going tubeless.
> 
> So you are saying you're ahead of your friends because you have more rolling resistance than them? That doesn't make sense. You don't have to push the limits, I keep a good safety margin, but lower the pressure to 35psi and enjoy noticeably decreased rolling resistance, better ride, and better traction. As others have said, weight is a huge factor in the pressure you need to run, how much do you weigh? If you're 350lbs, your 45-50psi is probably fine. If you're the typical 150-160lber you're way too high.
> 
> Do you also run abnormally high pressures in your fork and shock to where you only use 40% of your travel most of the time? Just wondering because most of the people I've run into that run high tire pressures also run high air spring pressures and believe they should not use more than 50% of their travel.


Why would rolling resistance increase with higher pressues? I've always heard, and understood in my mind's eye, that rolling resistance decreases as tire pressures increase.

Similarly, how could you have more traction while having less rolling resistance? Rolling resistance _is_ traction in a sense, no? I've always heard the two discussed as a spectrum; you can't have both so you find the middle ground.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

TheDwayyo said:


> Why would rolling resistance increase with higher pressues? I've always heard, and understood in my mind's eye, that rolling resistance decreases as tire pressures increase.
> 
> Similarly, how could you have more traction while having less rolling resistance? Rolling resistance _is_ traction in a sense, no? I've always heard the two discussed as a spectrum; you can't have both so you find the middle ground.


That caught my eyes too; the only time when lowering inflation pressure reduces rolling resistance is when on soft ground (think riding on the beach)---but if the ground is that soft (wet?) you probably shouldn't be riding on it anyway.

Or buy a fatbike...


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> Seriously? Do you mountain bike singletrack with 50 psi?





TheDwayyo said:


> I did when I started... I literally never got a pinch flat.


You couldn't get a pinch flat with 50 psi unless, perhaps you rode off of a serious cliff onto concrete.


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## cjcrawford (Jun 2, 2008)

Rolling resistance decreases (in mountain biking) with a lower pressure for the following reason:

When riding on a rough surface with a lot of asperities, you would rather have the tire casing change shape to accommodate the surface (low pressure) than have the surface irregularity lift the bike/rider in a vertical motion.

From an energy standpoint, you'd rather remold the tire shape over every little bump than lift the weight of the bike/rider in a direction perpendicular to the direction of motion. There is also the issue of traction: a larger, softer contact patch will result in better propulsion if there is not a lot of microscopic grinding under the rear tire (spinning out and sub-spinning out).

On a hard, smooth surface, yes, higher pressure is better (less constant tire deformation) but the physics of a rough surface is different.

Chris


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## BluePitch (Sep 13, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> You couldn't get a pinch flat with 50 psi unless, perhaps you rode off of a serious cliff onto concrete.


I had a Schwalbe Rocket Ron that didn't have the Snakeskin sidewall, it had the Liteskin sidewall (lighter I guess for racing) that tire could be at 60psi and it will pinch flat riding over a pencil. Some tires have better sidewalls.

I run my Maxxis High Roller 2 at 45psi and got a pinch flat just the other day. Square edge rocks and enormous root tangles are my scourge.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

40 psi, I'd be bouncing all over the place. The only people I know who get flats run tubes, I am tubeless, 20-25 psi, and don't flat. My maintenance consists of maybe adding more sealant if the tires don't wear out first. Hard to believe that there is still a debate.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

TSpice said:


> There is a simple fact to consider:
> 
> A vast majority of products, when used correctly and appropriately, work and last as intended by the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


Oh, this is precious!


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## digibud (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm willing to put up with the additional hassle after puncturing rolling downhill somewhere near 40mph. I didn't even realize it had happened till I got to the bottom and saw the Stans oozing out of the tire. It was a gaping hole the stans couldn't entirely stop from sealing but the leak was slowed enough to allow me to get back to the car - safely. If I'd had a big blowout at that speed downhill it would have been bad. Tubeless can indeed be a bit more of a pain but there are definitely big rewards.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Real world example from today's ride. On my CruX which I set up tubeless (ghetto), I was out doing a 50 mile gravel ride. Noticed rear tire was low, stopped and hit it with some CO2. Noticed it was low again a few minutes later. Stopped, removed valve stem, inserted new tube, CO2, completed ride. No drama. Took a few minutes. Looks like my sealant was mostly dried out and since I am not running TLR tires, well, that's what you get sometimes. Again, I just don't see the issue some folks have with this issue. Will be putting on nicer, TLR tires this week and shouldn't have that issue again.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> Stopped, removed valve stem, inserted new tube, CO2, completed ride. No drama.


You didn't end up covered from head to toe with gallons of toxic goo that melted off any exposed skin? Consider yourself lucky to have escaped intact.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

A close call for sure.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> Looks like my sealant was mostly dried out and since I am not running TLR tires, well, that's what you get sometimes. Again, I just don't see the issue some folks have with this issue. Will be putting on nicer, TLR tires this week and shouldn't have that issue again.


I have run NON-TLR tires off and on for years with no problems. I'm not sure what you mean by "running TLR and not having that problem again"?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

My tires are wire bead and have crappy casings..the sealant evaps faster than if I had proper TLR tires. I like that the Specy 2Bliss tires have butyl-lined beads as well. But yes...they do work I just now am aware that I need to top off the sealant more often than I have been used to.

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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

i've ran wire bead non tubeless clincher thin casing maxxis aspen tires as tubeless and it does allow quicker sealant evaporation compared to tubeless ready tires which i have atm - wtb vigilante. sealant evaporation is more evident in tropical regions and yea its noticeable for me.

between tubes and tubeless, i'd go for tubeless still.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

cjcrawford said:


> Rolling resistance decreases (in mountain biking) with a lower pressure for the following reason:
> 
> When riding on a rough surface with a lot of asperities, you would rather have the tire casing change shape to accommodate the surface (low pressure) than have the surface irregularity lift the bike/rider in a vertical motion.
> 
> ...


I think there are two different things you are describing here. Rolling resistance of the tire versus overall resistance in the ride due to setup.

Higher tire pressure will lower your rolling resistance at the tire level. You don't want it to deflect at all, any deflection and its causing resistance/drag by increasing surface area with the ground. So in theory, hard as a rock is the lowest rolling resistance, similar to a road bike tire at 120psi.

With that said, is having the lowest possible rolling resistance at the tire level the most efficient way to ride? No it isn't, unless you are on a roadie on pavement.

Having a little bit of give in the tire to accommodate the chatter from rocks/roots/uneven surface and the subsequent friction/drag you experience by having a larger surface area in contact with the ground generally is more beneficial than having it hard as a rock forcing your suspension/arms/legs to soak it. Just the fact remains, you are INCREASING the rolling resistance for the purposes of comfort or other benefits. Traction for instance.

Lowering PSI doesn't automatically give you more traction. In a situation where you are currently losing traction, yes, lowering the PSI is likely to improve your power transfer and subsequent efficiency. However if you already have 100% traction, lowering PSI will do nothing but create drag.

Long story short, the only purpose to lower PSI is for two reasons: Comfort, and potentially traction. However if your suspension is set up correctly, comfort shouldn't be an issue. So in essence, the only reason to lower PSI becomes an issue of traction. This is heavily based on where you are riding and current trail conditions. If you aren't losing traction, reducing PSI is doing nothing but causing drag. If you are losing traction, reducing PSI will still cause more drag, but the subsequent increased traction will likely be a net gain in efficiency.

Just with ever changing trail conditions, no matter what you set it at, you are likely to be at an advantage in some places and disadvantage in others. Really low PSI and you will rock the sketchy soft trails, but drag ass in the fast hardpacked areas. High PSI and you will rock the hardpack, but climbing (generally where you lose traction) will be a bit harder as you are likely to spin your tires occasionally. Take your pick.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Well said


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

TSpice said:


> I think there are two different things you are describing here. Rolling resistance of the tire versus overall resistance in the ride due to setup.
> 
> Higher tire pressure will lower your rolling resistance at the tire level. You don't want it to deflect at all, any deflection and its causing resistance/drag by increasing surface area with the ground. So in theory, hard as a rock is the lowest rolling resistance, similar to a road bike tire at 120psi.
> 
> ...


Comfort, traction, and lower rolling resistance on 90% of the terrain a mountain bike covers. This used to be common knowledge around here. Maybe not so much anymore. Does it take more energy to deform a tire slightly when going over a bump or to lift 100-200lbs up an inch or so?

I remember this link from a long time ago. It looks like it's dead but it supported lower pressures giving lower rolling resistance when off road which is what most in this forum care about. http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...r-tires-reduce-rolling-resistance-604387.html

Or this:

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-widths-effect-rolling-resistance-942078.html

You shouldn't speak in absolutes. "You don't want it to deflect at all, any deflection and its causing resistance/drag by increasing surface area with the ground." This simply is not true at all unless you're on a perfectly smooth, clean road.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

BuickGN said:


> Comfort, traction, and lower rolling resistance on 90% of the terrain a mountain bike covers. This used to be common knowledge around here. Maybe not so much anymore. Does it take more energy to deform a tire slightly when going over a bump or to lift 100-200lbs up an inch or so?
> 
> I remember this link from a long time ago. It looks like it's dead but it supported lower pressures giving lower rolling resistance when off road which is what most in this forum care about. http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...r-tires-reduce-rolling-resistance-604387.html
> 
> ...


Once again, all of those articles you linked talk about the "rolling resistance" as a factor of the overall ride, not the tire specifically. I am not arguing that it will likely be a faster and more comfortable ride if you lower the PSI a bit. There is science all over the place, and in the links you provided, that prove this a million times over.

You even start to admit it in your very last statement "unless you're on a perfect smooth road." Since a tire is a tire, regardless of where you plan to use it, the physics and science of that tire remain the same. Just the point is, depending on where you use the tire, what your desired outcome is, will change the inputs. The overall science however again, remains the same.

In bumpy terrain, having a higher rolling resistance at the tire level has proven to be a more efficient overall ride and require less wattage to maintain. However the fact remains, at the tire level, the rolling resistance is higher.

Essentially at this point, it is just arguing semantics, which in the case of the internet, isn't worth arguing about.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Roadies enjoy lower psi and subsequently lower rolling resistance as well..at v. high pressures your road bike is bouncing off every little imperfection on the road surface rather than rolling over them.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

TSpice said:


> Once again, all of those articles you linked talk about the "rolling resistance" as a factor of the overall ride, not the tire specifically. I am not arguing that it will likely be a faster and more comfortable ride if you lower the PSI a bit. There is science all over the place, and in the links you provided, that prove this a million times over.
> 
> You even start to admit it in your very last statement "unless you're on a perfect smooth road." Since a tire is a tire, regardless of where you plan to use it, the physics and science of that tire remain the same. Just the point is, depending on where you use the tire, what your desired outcome is, will change the inputs. The overall science however again, remains the same.
> 
> ...


I'm arguing semantics yet you're the one attempting to qualify every statement with "at the tire level". Exactly what is "at the tire level"? Tread? Sidewall? Casing? Tube? Size? When you use an undefined, vague term you can never lose I guess.

Whatever you're trying to say to win an argument is unimportant when the real world with it's imperfect surfaces, working together with the tires shows lower rolling resistance with low pressures. Before someone says it, I'm sure there's a point where resistance goes up but I would imagine pinch flats would become a problem long before rolling resistance. I've had my tires as high as 60psi when I was trying to seat a bead and forgot to lower the pressure before my ride. I regularly rode with them around 50psi when I didn't know any better. I'm now down in the mid to low 30psi range and the bike rolls faster than it ever did at the high pressures.

Several times, I've noticed when I was experimenting with pressures on the same trail with the same friend on the same bikes with the same tires that there were times when I would have to pedal to keep up with him on a slight downhill while he was coasting. There were other times when I didn't have to pedal at all and sometimes even coasted just a little ahead of him when we were both coasting. The times where I had to pedal every once in a while to keep up while he was coasting were when I had higher pressures, in the 40-45psi range. It might not be scientific and it might not remove all variables but when 100% of the time at high pressure I would have to pedal to keep up while he was coasting and 100% of the time we would coast at about the same speed when I finally settled on a lower pressure, it's good enough for me.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

^this thread


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> ^this thread


On an endless loop. :crazy:


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Hey, has anyone here run tubeless tires?


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> Hey, has anyone here run tubeless tires?


I ran tubes once, with no tyres, does that count?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Instead of tubes I shoved grass in there to get back to the car one time.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

As they have set for a few days after setting my rear back up tubeless I see the issue...the sidewall of my rear weeps big time..again....need better tires when these wear out...but hey...they still are holding air. Because I have been running them with pretty low pressure it wears the sidewalls out faster is my take...you can start to see the threads (little dots in a line) in places and this is where the sealant is weeping.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Tube would fix it.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> ^this thread


Clearly had lower rolling resistance at the rail level. :shocked:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Tube would fix it.


Sure would and it did to get me back to the car.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

mik_git said:


> I ran tubes once, with no tyres, does that count?


Wait, what are tyres? Do they have higher or lower rolling resistance than tires of similar construction?


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

It's sad to say but with the holidays I've been so busy, the bike just sits. I have one question related to the tubeless setup...

Every few days I rotate the tires a bit. It's not to make sure they hold air, I seem to have to gotten very lucky in regards to my tubeless setup holding air every bit as good as using tubes. I figure it's not good to have the Stan's mix sitting in the same place, on the same patch of rubber for days at a time. I rotate to let it sit in a different spot in the tire after hearing stories of it softening rubber. I do not know the circumstances of the softened rubber or if it happens to all brands of tires but I figured better safe than sorry.

Does anyone else rotate (spin) the tires slightly when the bike sits up for more than a few days at a time to move the Stan's around or am I wasting my time doing so? I just bought two new Schwalbes which weren't cheap and have under 50 miles on them, I want to throw them away because they're worn out, not because the sealant ruined them at a low mileage. I have a feeling most in here have not let their bikes sit long enough to worry about it but someone has to have gone through the same thing.

Maybe I just found another plus for tubes, people who rarely ride the bike.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I rotate mine too on a regular basis if riding is inhibited for whatever reason. I don't think I am as diligent as you (every few days), but it gets done at least every week. Fortunately, I don't usually go more than a week, maybe two weeks without riding.

Cheers!


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

BuickGN said:


> It's sad to say but with the holidays I've been so busy, the bike just sits. I have one question related to the tubeless setup...
> 
> Every few days I rotate the tires a bit. It's not to make sure they hold air, I seem to have to gotten very lucky in regards to my tubeless setup holding air every bit as good as using tubes. I figure it's not good to have the Stan's mix sitting in the same place, on the same patch of rubber for days at a time. I rotate to let it sit in a different spot in the tire after hearing stories of it softening rubber. I do not know the circumstances of the softened rubber or if it happens to all brands of tires but I figured better safe than sorry.
> 
> ...


I rotate my tires regularly.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

Maybe it is just horror stories, but have heard of sealant actually solidifying or partially solidifying if left to sit for long periods of time. (ie winter season hits and you let your bike sit for 4-6 months while you wait for the spring). Come spring, feels like a lead weight in your tire! 

Most people I know with tubeless setups rotate their wheels. That or if you know it is going to sit for a long time, pull off the tires and clean them out. Essentially "winterizing" the bike.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Case in point. I work with a guy with a v. nice Trek that is ~7 years old. He knows I work on bikes and we got chatting...he wanted to start riding again and it has been sitting in a storage unit for 3-4 years. It's got UST tires/rims. When I popped off the tires to check things out and add fresh sealant, I found a large hard mass of old sealant where it had sat. Certainly a worse-case but still, if you don't ride your bike regularly, sure, spin the wheel once a week..why not?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Given all of the perceived or real issues with tubeless, I can't see going back to tubes. Everything I do that relates to tubeless is worth it for me personally.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Because of where the bike is hidden in the house, I come face to face with it at least once a day so it's easy to remember to rotate the tires. I know I'm getting a 48mm stem for Christmas and some new goggles and 510s to complete my protective gear so it might get a little activity for at least one or two days over the holidays....... finally. It might look weird trying out my goggles with full face helmet around the neighborhood but that's the beauty of the helmet and goggles, no one can see my face lol.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> It might look weird trying out my goggles with full face helmet around the neighborhood but that's the beauty of the helmet and goggles, no one can see my face lol.


Who cares? Have fun!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Cleared2land said:


> Given all of the perceived or real issues with tubeless, I can't see going back to tubes. Everything I do that relates to tubeless is worth it for me personally.


Same here. I've had no issues with tubeless. I just add some sealant every three months...that's about it.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> Case in point. I work with a guy with a v. nice Trek that is ~7 years old. He knows I work on bikes and we got chatting...he wanted to start riding again and it has been sitting in a storage unit for 3-4 years. It's got UST tires/rims. When I popped off the tires to check things out and add fresh sealant, I found a large hard mass of old sealant where it had sat. Certainly a worse-case but still, if you don't ride your bike regularly, sure, spin the wheel once a week..why not?


Cool, I'll keep that in mind this winter.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

TheDwayyo said:


> Wait, what are tyres? Do they have higher or lower rolling resistance than tires of similar construction?


Tyre is what we're talking about, tire is what we are getting of this thread...


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

TSpice said:


> Maybe it is just horror stories, but have heard of sealant actually solidifying or partially solidifying if left to sit for long periods of time. (ie winter season hits and you let your bike sit for 4-6 months while you wait for the spring). Come spring, feels like a lead weight in your tire!
> 
> Most people I know with tubeless setups rotate their wheels. That or if you know it is going to sit for a long time, pull off the tires and clean them out. Essentially "winterizing" the bike.


Well first off it solidifies by evaporating off the water... So it won't feel like a lead weight, it will feel lighter than it did with liquid sealant.

Second, that's not a horror story; that's how sealant works. It is essentially glue. When exposed to air the water evaporates leaving a solid. That's the whole point. The fact that you have to refresh sealant every few months is just a part of the way the system works.


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Because of where the bike is hidden in the house, I come face to face with it at least once a day so it's easy to remember to rotate the tires. I know I'm getting a 48mm stem for Christmas and some new goggles and 510s to complete my protective gear so it might get a little activity for at least one or two days over the holidays....... finally. It might look weird trying out my goggles with full face helmet around the neighborhood but that's the beauty of the helmet and goggles, no one can see my face lol.


It's not that people think you look wierd with gear on it's called Downhill Envy, lol


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> Who cares? Have fun!


I'm seriously considering throwing on the body armor and pads too and then acting like I'm having a hard time going off/on curbs. Or trying to wheelie but failing.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

BuickGN said:


> I'm seriously considering throwing on the body armor and pads too and then acting like I'm having a hard time going off/on curbs. Or trying to wheelie but failing.


Put on a football helmet, pads, wrist braces, etc. Get a beater bike and go around slamming into stuff. I mean, full speed into a curb without lifting the front tire causing a magnificent endo.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

That's not a whole lot different from how I normally ride lol.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> It might look weird trying out my goggles with full face helmet around the neighborhood but that's the beauty of the helmet and goggles, no one can see my face lol./QUOTE]
> 
> Wear them into your bank, see if they recognize you.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Optimus said:


> BuickGN said:
> 
> 
> > It might look weird trying out my goggles with full face helmet around the neighborhood but that's the beauty of the helmet and goggles, no one can see my face lol./QUOTE]
> ...


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

I always try to give a good image of mtbers, but sometimes there's nothing your can do...
Today, it was raining earlier so the trails were perfect. I pulled up to a spot I know isn't too muddy but they were working on the road where I wanted to park. I had to park in front of somebodys fancy- ass house just a few yards away. Their dog barked for about 15 minutes straight as I got ready 
Rained on me while out so i covered up to stay warm . When I returned 2.5 hrs later wearing a full head sock, glasses, helmet, dressed all in black. I saw that they were staring at me from their front window. I kept all my **** on, threw my bike on my crashpad, and drove off still wearing my helmet and gloves. I figure if you' buy a house near a trailhead and you don't like it, f***ing move.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

BuickGN said:


> Does anyone else rotate (spin) the tires slightly when the bike sits up for more than a few days at a time to move the Stan's around or am I wasting my time doing so? I just bought two new Schwalbes which weren't cheap and have under 50 miles on them, I want to throw them away because they're worn out, not because the sealant ruined them at a low mileage. I have a feeling most in here have not let their bikes sit long enough to worry about it but someone has to have gone through the same thing.


I usually give the tires a good hard spin every couple weeks if I'm not riding the bike, but sometimes I forget. I had one of my tubeless bikes sit around for 5-6 weeks with the tires in one spot, it was still fine when I went & rode it, I could still hear liquid sloshing around in the tire and when I topped up the sealant a few months later I didn't see any unusual latex buildups on the inside of the tire. I do keep my bikes in a cool dark basement which keeps the evaporation down.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

I just upgraded the wheel set of my all mountain bike. The new wheels were the easiest to set up tubeless of any I have ever worked with. The tires went on without a whole lot of grunt work. They seated up easy with just a floor pump. They have not lost a single pound of pressure since I inflated them a few days ago. DT Swiss makes good stuff.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm getting sick of not dealing with tubeless.

I used to be the fastest tube changer west of the Mississippi but if I don't convert back soon I may forget how to do it :[


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm getting sick of not dealing with tubeless.
> 
> I used to be the fastest tube changer west of the Mississippi but if I don't convert back soon I may forget how to do it :[


Maybe you can become an expert on filling tires up with glue, tilting them on their sides (to let it work itself in a little), rotating them, repeat until the air stops coming out, every two weeks?


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Doublebase said:


> Maybe you can become an expert on filling tires up with glue, tilting them on their sides (to let it work itself in a little), rotating them, repeat until the air stops coming out, every two weeks?


Not sure why people make setting up tubeless tires as rocket science.

I'll add a couple scoops of sealant every three months. Air it back up and spin the the tires...done. I don't even take the wheels off the bike.


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## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

RS VR6 said:


> Not sure why people make setting up tubeless tires as rocket science.
> 
> I'll add a couple scoops of sealant every three months. Air it back up and spin the the tires...done. I don't even take the wheels off the bike.


Well there goes my idea of an online graduate degree in bicycle tubeless science.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> Maybe you can become an expert on filling tires up with glue, tilting them on their sides (to let it work itself in a little), rotating them, repeat until the air stops coming out, every two weeks?


How will I become an expert at that if I've never had to do it?

If I had only one pinch flat in my entire life and tubeless was so difficult for me that I had to start a 15 page thread to beoch about it I would go back to tubes for sure.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

A1an said:


> Well there goes my idea of an online graduate degree in bicycle tubeless science.


If it's a graduate degree, what's the undergraduate degree?


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> How will I become an expert at that if I've never had to do it?
> 
> If I had only one pinch flat in my entire life and tubeless was so difficult for me that I had to start a 15 page thread to beoch about it I would go back to tubes for sure.


Oh you never had to add sealant to your tubeless setup? Runs contrary to what's being said in this fifteen page thread. Unless you have reading comprehension issues.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

2 oz every 3 months, and I live in the desert. 5 minute job with a Stans syringe, 5 minute job to break the bead to add, hardly difficult or an inconvenience either way. Been tubeless over 6 years, many different tires, many different rims, never have I used a UST tire, thrice I've sliced a sidewall to where I had to boot in a tube.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Agreed.

I usually just pop the bead to remove any latex boogers and see how much sealant needs to be added. I don't bother removing the wheel, just place the bike on the stand and open the tire.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Optimus said:


> 2 oz every 3 months, and I live in the desert. 5 minute job with a Stans syringe, 5 minute job to break the bead to add, hardly difficult or an inconvenience either way. Been tubeless over 6 years, many different tires, many different rims, never have I used a UST tire, thrice I've sliced a sidewall to where I had to boot in a tube.


And I agree, since starting this thread I now understand that sidewall leaks are normal and more sealant is needed, which is what I do now...bought some more sealant for Christmas as a matter of fact. But at first - during the two month period I purchased the bike - I didn't realize that this was a maintenance issue...that I needed to add more, etc. When I was using tubes it was just a matter of checking my air pressure every few rides...and it usually wasn't necessary to add air. When I bought a bike that was tubeless, it was a different story. I am fine with it now.

As for tubes and pinch flats...I've gotten two pinch flats in my life and up until that point I had around 500 hours of riding in on rocky single track. As for tubeless...I have gotten two flats in 70 hours of riding, but it has improved with more sealant to the point where I only add air every other ride...and it's only a small amount. So like I said, I'm staying with tubeless.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> And I agree, since starting this thread I now understand that sidewall leaks are normal and more sealant is needed, which is what I do now...bought some more sealant for Christmas as a matter of fact. But at first - during the two month period I purchased the bike - I didn't realize that this was a maintenance issue...that I needed to add more, etc. When I was using tubes it was just a matter of checking my air pressure every few rides...and it usually wasn't necessary to add air. When I bought a bike that was tubeless, it was a different story. I am fine with it now.
> 
> As for tubes and pinch flats...I've gotten two pinch flats in my life and up until that point I had around 500 hours of riding in on rocky single track. As for tubeless...I have gotten two flats in 70 hours of riding, but it has improved with more sealant to the point where I only add air every other ride...and it's only a small amount. So like I said, I'm staying with tubeless.


If I know of a puncture, I leave it in, smaller hole to seal. When I do change out a tire there are often many pokie things evidenced sticking through to the inside. This is only an issue if you are forced to put a tube in, but I just pull the tire and turn it inside out, scrape the things off with a rock, boot up a tube and ride. Like I said, only been 3 times, probably about 4500 miles of riding tubeless.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

I've been tubeless since the late seventies....on cars.


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## digibud (Sep 21, 2009)

I think the reason some folks see it as rocket science is due to the spectacular lack of any standard. Some rims are UST, some aren't, some fit tight, some loose. Some need a "ghetto" installation and some fat tire/rim combinations require people to stand and stomp on the tire to break the bead. I have one bike that let me get the tubeless ready wheel set up with a tubeless ready tire with no problem at all then the back tire would not go on in spite of having a "flash" charger and setting it up with a tube for a few days and using every technique I could find. Now that I have several bikes with tubeless setups I got a small compressor and that was the end of that in terms of getting tires to seat. Folks with a nice rim/tire combinations may find the experience simple as pie while others may struggle endlessly. There's a huge variation on how simple tubeless is or isn't but once you have a workable system and are able to mount/dismount a tire the benifits are huge.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

net wurker said:


> I've been tubeless since the late seventies....on cars.


I run tubeless on one of my cars that are supposed to have tubes and I don't run sealant. I have to add air every month or two but it's not a big deal.

For some reason, going tubeless on the bike was more intimidating.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> A As for tubeless...I have gotten two flats in 70 hours of riding


I don't know how many hours I have since my last (tubeless) flat, but it's been about a year, or about 4000 miles. Actually, it might be longer and farther...


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Tubeless for me has been much more simple than using tubes. Except for some reason I have a hard time getting the tires off. I mean a really hard time. I don't know why. So I don't even bother bringing a tube with me in case I get a flat. 

OP, try Orange sealant. I've tried the others and for me it's by far the best.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Cleared2land said:


> I don't know how many hours I have since my last (tubeless) flat, but it's been about a year, or about 4000 miles. Actually, it might be longer and farther...


Same here, I haven't had a flat since I converted. While it's a relatively short time, under a year, it's a huge improvement with nearly one flat per ride before. 2 rides without a flat would have been considered good. I've never had a flat while tubeless, riding the same trails as before. I hate to think just how many holes have probably been put in my tires. My quart of sealant is still nearly full, if it keeps going at the same rate I'll probably need a quart every 5 years or so. At that rate, it can almost be considered a first time expense.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

digibud said:


> I think the reason some folks see it as rocket science is due to the spectacular lack of any standard. Some rims are UST, some aren't, some fit tight, some loose. Some need a "ghetto" installation and some fat tire/rim combinations require people to stand and stomp on the tire to break the bead. I have one bike that let me get the tubeless ready wheel set up with a tubeless ready tire with no problem at all then the back tire would not go on in spite of having a "flash" charger and setting it up with a tube for a few days and using every technique I could find. Now that I have several bikes with tubeless setups *I got a small compressor*and that was the end of that in terms of getting tires to seat. Folks with a nice rim/tire combinations may find the experience simple as pie while others may struggle endlessly. There's a huge variation on how simple tubeless is or isn't but once you have a workable system and are able to mount/dismount a tire the benefits are huge.


The compressor made the biggest difference for me...that and a bike stand. With the bike suspended and level with me...it makes checking and adding sealant much faster and easier.

I've only had one issue with mounting a tire...it was tire that was stored folded. Drove me nuts could not get the bead to set. Even tried soap on the bead (something I've never done). Then I found the method of seating with a tube first. After I did that...tire seated on the first shot of air from the compressor.

IME...the frustration with tubeless starts with user error or general inexperience with them. Once you get the setting up dialed...it's pretty quick and painless.


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## Bruce in SoCal (Apr 21, 2013)

I recently had the misfortune of riding through a patch of thorns. I discovered this when I heard the sound of the thorns embedded in my tire hitting he ground as the tire rolled. It was so bad that I had to stop and pull them out. I pulled something like 180 thorns from the front and 140 from the rear. (Back at home, I pulled another 50 broken pieces of thorn from each tire.) thanks to tubeless, other than the time spent pulling thorns, they did not impair my ride.

But for tubeless, the tires and tubes would have been total losses. The tires would have been so bad that I couldn't put more tubes in them.

BTW: The loss in pressure was insignificant. And when I returned from a 10 day vacation there was no significant loss in pressure. 

I love tubeless.


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## El34 (Jan 11, 2009)

I have nothing but good luck with tubeless>
Regular non tubeless rims and tires, using nylon strapping tape 3 times around to seal the spoke holes, plenty of Stans and Stans valves.

No problems until it's time to add more Stans
That may take a couple months
You can tell when to add Stans because the tires loose air between rides

The best luck I have had is with tires that have a bit of meat and are not paper thin

Just my .02


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Doublebase said:


> Oh you never had to add sealant to your tubeless setup? Runs contrary to what's being said in this fifteen page thread. Unless you have reading comprehension issues.


Actually I did, about 3 months after I first installed the tires. Reading comprehension? Seems like 8 out of 10 posters here find tubeless to be not so much of a hassle.

Merry Christmas!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually I did, about 3 months after I first installed the tires. Reading comprehension? Seems like 8 out of 10 posters here find tubeless to be not so much of a hassle.
> 
> Merry Christmas!


Yeah, if done correctly, it's so much easier, better riding and lighter than running tubes. I have to add Orange sealant about every six months. And, adding more sealant really doesn't add weight, like the OP is worried about, because when it's time to add sealant, the liquid from the previous sealant has dried up.


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## El34 (Jan 11, 2009)

I run 35mm wide carbon rims and Maxxis Ardent tires on my dual rig

Tubeless setup with Stans runs without a hitch and the terrain is pretty rough here in Pisgah.

The extra rotating weight savings is very noticeable without tubes


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## Bruce in SoCal (Apr 21, 2013)

Apart from my ability to find thorns, I think the biggest advantage for me is that I'm not afraid of pinch flats and therefore I'm willing to hit rocks in and on the trail a bit faster.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Yeah, if done correctly, it's so much easier, better riding and lighter than running tubes. I have to add Orange sealant about every six months. And, adding more sealant really doesn't add weight, like the OP is worried about, because when it's time to add sealant, the liquid from the previous sealant has dried up.


Another advantage.

The more you ride, the lighter they get!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

hmmm....no action here in a week?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I set up my new gravel tires tubeless on my CX bike yesterday in about 15 min with a floor pump and didn't make a mess...ask me how!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> hmmm....no action here in a week?


Trolling for useless banter? You win


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Trevor Ochmonek said:


> Trolling for useless banter? You win


Perhaps guilty as charged. I'm just amazed this thread has gone this many pages or this long free of another pointless statement.


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> Perhaps guilty as charged. I'm just amazed this thread has gone this many pages or this long free of another pointless statement.


Pointless, points, doesn't matter, Stans will seal them all.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> Perhaps guilty as charged. I'm just amazed this thread has gone this many pages or this long free of another pointless statement.


Touché 

I did ride 102 times in 2015 with over 1,000 trail miles and over 100k of climbing with zero flats... so I will say that the hour, or hour and a half, I spent "dealing with tubeless" was well worth it.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Optimus said:


> Pointless, points, doesn't matter, Stans will seal them all.


Orange will seal them all faster and better!


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## Optimus (Apr 14, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Orange will seal them all faster and better!


Does it smell like oranges? Remember when they were demoing the stuff to to select bike shops, my buddy who is a bike mechanic tried it and liked it. It's a little pricey though.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cleared2land said:


> hmmm....no action here in a week?


If I could bump the Awesome Strap thread I would.

Now that was some rich content.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Optimus said:


> Does it smell like oranges? Remember when they were demoing the stuff to to select bike shops, my buddy who is a bike mechanic tried it and liked it. It's a little pricey though.


No, but it is orange.



DIRTJUNKIE said:


> If I could bump the Awesome Strap thread I would.
> 
> Now that was some rich content.


Are you wearing nutsack straps again?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Are you wearing nutsack straps again?


I just got a shiny silky new black set for Christmas. They connect to my sock suspenders.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I just got a shiny silky new black set for Christmas. They connect to my sock suspenders.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I just got a shiny silky new black set for Christmas. They connect to my sock suspenders.


I didn't see a picture of those posted in the Cool Bike-related Christmas Stuff thread.

We wanna see them...while ur wearing them.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Why is this thread over 300 posts long and still going 3 months later? He OP didn't read instructions or watch a video and complained that he didn't achieve the desired results. Let's move on.


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## ConchoBill (Jan 12, 2015)

And me, not the OP BTW, just went back to tubes, because 2 tires didn't hold. So far I haven't had problems with pinch flats. I may be running too much pressure, really. 

My Slime tubes are holding air nicely and I like that!


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

ConchoBill said:


> And me, not the OP BTW, just went back to tubes, because 2 tires didn't hold. So far I haven't had problems with pinch flats. I may be running too much pressure, really.
> 
> My Slime tubes are holding air nicely and I like that!


Slime tubes... All the weight of tubeless _and_ tubes, while still running higher pressures and getting pinch flats! Woohoo!


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

TheDwayyo said:


> Slime tubes... All the weight of tubeless _and_ tubes, while still running higher pressures and getting pinch flats! Woohoo!


See Rod, there's still intelligent conversation on the topic to be had. :lol:


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Not to get off topic, but I'm getting set to do my taxes and I was wondering if there is a way to deduct Stan's sealant? Like let's say if I drove my bike to work and experienced air loss every day...added sealant every couple of weeks...for the year, could I wrote that off? Would that be a standard deduction, or would it be long form?

And let's say I sent away for instructional videos from Rod's mom - to learn how to properly seal a tire - not on how to excite a horse (I realize those videos are not deductible), can I write off the tire videos?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I just spoke to the IRS and they said that you could just go ahead and claim a bike credit (not a deduction, but a credit) for riding to work, and you could deduct all of the Twinkies you eat to fuel your ride. Don't hesitate.


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## digibud (Sep 21, 2009)

I haven't read the entire thread so sorry for duplication of thought. I'd add the simple concept of using a bathtub to check the tires. I had a slow leak that turned out to simply be the tire leaking a little everywhere on one side. I think the sealant worked well on one side but there wasn't quite enough to seal the other side or perhaps the LBS didn't let it sit on that side long enough. I added a bit more sealant, rocked the wheel back and forth and laid it on the side. Done. Another tire was leaking a bit from the valve stem base and I carefully upended the tire, flipping it up and down to try to get the sealant in the area of the valve and that worked well. Squirts from spray bottle with soapy water might have done just as well but filling a bath tub worked very nicely to locate leaks. I would also say that getting a small compressor made a huge difference in the ease of installation and in my ability to add air, deflate, reinflate and work with my bikes, particularly my fat bike tires.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Doublebase said:


> Not to get off topic, but I'm getting set to do my taxes and I was wondering if there is a way to deduct Stan's sealant? Like let's say if I drove my bike to work and experienced air loss every day...added sealant every couple of weeks...for the year, could I wrote that off? Would that be a standard deduction, or would it be long form?
> 
> And let's say I sent away for instructional videos from Rod's mom - to learn how to properly seal a tire - not on how to excite a horse (I realize those videos are not deductible), can I write off the tire videos?


The real ? Is: What are you doing with gay horse porn? Damn, that must be painful!


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> I just spoke to the IRS and they said that you could just go ahead and claim a bike credit (not a deduction, but a credit) for riding to work, and you could deduct all of the Twinkies you eat to fuel your ride. Don't hesitate.


The Twinkies are a no go...tried last year. Please do your research before posting on the Internet, you're crushing hopes and dreams.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> The real ? Is: What are you doing with gay horse porn? Damn, that must be painful!


I didn't mean to offend - I see you're riding a horse in your avatar - and I fully understand that horse breeding is socially acceptable in like three or four states


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Sidewall leaks on new tubeless tires is common. On a new tire install, I always add a little more sealant and make sure the sidewalls were well coated as a standard procedure on a new tire install.


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## ConchoBill (Jan 12, 2015)

2 things about me, I'm not terribly concerned by the weight of the bike; I'm just riding for fun and to stay in shape. I plan to go tubeless when I have time to do it myself and the money to buy TR tires. I will learn how to do it when I am the one installing the tubeless tires. As it was, I had someone else install them, and they weren't TR tires (better I think for a beginner) and they didn't hold air. I really don't want the aggravation at this time. I have had 0 problems with pinch flats and these tubes.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

ConchoBill said:


> 2 things about me, I'm not terribly concerned by the weight of the bike; I'm just riding for fun and to stay in shape. I plan to go tubeless when I have time to do it myself and the money to buy TR tires. I will learn how to do it when I am the one installing the tubeless tires. As it was, I had someone else install them, and they weren't TR tires (better I think for a beginner) and they didn't hold air. I really don't want the aggravation at this time. I have had 0 problems with pinch flats and these tubes.


I was mostly joking, but the reason you're not getting pinch flats is likely because your pressure is too high, as you stated... Slime tubes are not going to seal most pinch flats as they cause a slit rather than just a puncture.

You'll appreciate it when you do switch. You may not be 'terribly concerned by the weight of the bike' but you'll definitely like it better when it's lighter... Especially lighter on the wheels, where weight is most felt. Same goes for pressure. It's easy to say you don't mind it when you don't know what you're missing.

I suspect the person who set it up for you just didn't know what they're doing. It's really not rocket science. I set up wheels tubeless all the time at the shop I work at and I've yet to come across one that was terribly difficult (and I've done ghetto-tubeless, TR ready stuff and even fat tires.)


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I figured I 'd go tubeless when I have to get new tires, but some of the reports here and in this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=996006 are giving me second thoughts.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Go with the herd mentality and you'll never learn or accomplish anything. The whimpering on here is buy a small, unhappy sample of the success stories. Make your own decisions. Be brave.


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## billj121 (Jul 29, 2011)

Have worn down several sets of thin walled non tubeless tires, but got a slash on the second ride of my first set of true tubeless. I don't blame the tubeless, just an unlucky ride or possibly a moment of not paying enough attention.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^ Go with the herd mentality and you'll never learn or accomplish anything. The whimpering on here is buy a small, unhappy sample of the success stories. Make your own decisions. Be brave.


Pretty sure 'the herd' runs tubeless these days. 
And voicing a different opinion than 'the herd' as far as equipment isn't 'whimpering'. 
Always weird when people try to equate their gear preferences with themselves somehow being superior to people that don't choose to run the same stuff. Compensating for something?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Anybody seen the OP in this thread since October?

I think the mission has been completed. ut:


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Anybody seen the OP in this thread since October?


Actually, he posted yesterday.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

net wurker said:


> Actually, he posted yesterday.


Oops..

Mission back on track.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Anybody seen the OP in this thread since October?
> 
> I think the mission has been completed. ut:


Not until we expend 40 pages of flats versus cliplesss.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Almost 1.5 months of not riding, no soft spot on the tires. I finally had enough of staring at it and rode it 50' to the mail box and realized the tires were low. They lost about 8psi in 1.5 months which isn't bad. That's barely more than my regular tube setup lost when sitting for that amount of time. Who knows if it would have leaked faster or slower if I had been riding it the whole time. I may try not checking the pressure for as long as it seems safe once everything dries out and I start riding again. The great thing is my cardio will be back to stock, as if I had never ridden a bike. I HATE starting over when rides go from fun to hell on the way up and then waiting 30 minutes to recover so I can have fun on the downhill. I guess that's for another thread but so far air leakage over time has not been an issue.


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## JohnWhiteCD (Aug 28, 2015)

I ran tubeless first time last night and burped significantly enough that I needed to add air to both tires. I wasn't even running low, but lower than I normally would by a good couple pounds. Maybe around 22psi?

Went to ride today and the front was completely flat while the back only lost a bit. I have sealant all over my tires. 

Still, I like being able to run a bit lower pressure without getting pinch flats, but not at the expense of losing air while hard cornering. I'll give them a few more rides.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> I ran tubeless first time last night and burped significantly enough that I needed to add air to both tires. I wasn't even running low, but lower than I normally would by a good couple pounds. Maybe around 22psi?
> 
> Went to ride today and the front was completely flat while the back only lost a bit. I have sealant all over my tires.
> 
> Still, I like being able to run a bit lower pressure without getting pinch flats, but not at the expense of losing air while hard cornering. I'll give them a few more rides.


22psi for what wheel size? The pressure is different for each one.

22psi for 29er aint too low, I used to run but it makes my Racing Ralph feel too squirmy and unstable so I run 25 instead.

And on what rims?

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## JohnWhiteCD (Aug 28, 2015)

zephxiii said:


> 22psi for what wheel size?
> And on what rims?


29er on Easton 70's.
I don't want to run any higher defeating the whole purpose of going tubeless. The tires are skinnyish also. 2.2 Conti's. Granted the rims are narrow, but it shouldn't affect it that much I would think.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> 29er on Easton 70's.
> I don't want to run any higher defeating the whole purpose of going tubeless. The tires are skinnyish also. 2.2 Conti's. Granted the rims are narrow, but it shouldn't affect it that much I would think.


Which Conti's ?

Brand new Conti's mounted up tubeless are gonna look small at first, they will stretch out after a while.

You'll run a lil more PSI out back due to more weight.

What sealant are ya using and can u verify the burp. Depending on the sealant u could be still bleeding off air.

I don't think ya should have burped. I've never burped my Conti's or any other tires on my Stan's Arch EX. I ran 19-22psi up front all the time on thin wall race tires..

The problem with the XC tires is they get squirmy when u go too low so I gotta bump it up a lil.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> 29er on Easton 70's.
> I don't want to run any higher defeating the whole purpose of going tubeless. The tires are skinnyish also. 2.2 Conti's. Granted the rims are narrow, but it shouldn't affect it that much I would think.


John, tire pressure is defendant in a lot of things. One of those things is the strength of the tire that you have. Don't worry about these super low psi numbers that everyone is bragging about. It means absolutely nothing. Run what pressure works for your tire, weight and riding style.

If your having trouble with your tires holding sealant and air. Try painting a couple coats of sealant inside the tire, let the coats dry then install them tubeless as you normally would.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

zephxiii said:


> 22psi for what wheel size? The pressure is different for each one.
> 
> 22psi for 29er aint too low, I used to run but it makes my Racing Ralph feel too squirmy and unstable so I run 25 instead.
> 
> And on what rims?


Proper tire pressure is more closely correlated to equipped rider weight, not wheel size. This is certainly not a hard rule, but it works pretty well as a starting point. It's almost spot on for me.

Rider Weight in pounds divided by 7 = x

x - 1 = Front tire pressure in PSI

x + 2 = Rear tire pressure in PSI

Example: 185lb rider

185/7 = 26.4

Front tire pressure: 26 - 1 = 25 PSI

Rear tire pressure: 26 + 2 = 28 PSI

We understand rider style, terrain, conditions and tires selection can play a roll. But the bottom line is what ever works for you.


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> 29er on Easton 70's.
> I don't want to run any higher defeating the whole purpose of going tubeless. The tires are skinnyish also. 2.2 Conti's. Granted the rims are narrow, but it shouldn't affect it that much I would think.


Running lower air pressure most definitely is not the only reason for tubeless. Never getting a flat vs at least one every other ride was why I did it.

As it's been noted in this thread, tire pressure is dependent on the weight. I learned that with all else being equal, me running 30psi at 240lbs is the equivalent of 20psi for a 170lb person. What do you weigh? Have you done the math to get a ballpark figure of where you should start?


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

Looks like I was a few seconds late lol.


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## JohnWhiteCD (Aug 28, 2015)

Conti X-King Protection 2.2
155#'s kitted up which puts me right in Cleared2land's theory. (Seems reasonable btw)

The tires appear to be holding this morning. Perhaps the sealant needed a few rides?
That doesn't seem right, however. The bead seat should be the factor.

And yes, my main goal for running tubeless is being able to run lower pressure without getting pinch flats. Please don't tell me otherwise.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> And yes, my main goal for running tubeless is being able to run lower pressure without getting pinch flats. Please don't tell me otherwise.


I'm not telling you otherwise but IMHO tubeless tires don't really allow you to run lower pressures than ones with tubes. Of course you _can_ lower the psi on a tubeless wheel while avoiding (most) pinch flats but you'll just dent the rim instead. The ol' "snake bite" is a gentle reminder that you've exceeded the limitations of your tire/rim/weight combo.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Just to be clear - so I don't have another...oh the OP doesn't know how to set up tubeless...probably lives in a cave with his mom, post. I learned a lot about tubeless five minutes into this thread...even got myself some Stan's sealant for Christmas. I'm fine with tubeless...added more sealant to the initial setup from the bike shop and it has improved to the point where it is not a problem. When it is cold I do see the sealant bubbling out, sealing the sidewalls, but it does the job.

I have 80 plus rides on this Santa Cruz 5010 since I bought it in September...and living in New England, the trails are full of rock gardens and tree roots...I literally can't find 50 feet of flat, clean trail where I go (and I love it that way). The bike has held up beautifully...easily the most durable bike I've ever owned and the sealant has done its job. Unfortunately winter has finally struck in these parts and my riding season has come to an end - I luckily had great weather this season and was able to get in somewhere around 130 rides (and I started late this year).


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not telling you otherwise but IMHO tubeless tires don't really allow you to run lower pressures than ones with tubes. Of course you _can_ lower the psi on a tubeless wheel while avoiding (most) pinch flats but you'll just dent the rim instead. The ol' "snake bite" is a gentle reminder that you've exceeded the limitations of your tire/rim/weight combo.


Yes, this. Pinch flats were rare for me, but I've also dented a few rims in my time. A pinch flat is a lot cheaper and was usually a warning that I was running pressure too low. At some point, people thought when they went tubeless they could drop 5psi, then when they went to large volume 2.3-2.4 tires, they could drop another 5, then when they went 29er, they thought they could drop another 3psi, and finally with wider rims, they figured they could lop off another 4psi. Now all of a sudden, lots of people are running 18psi on regular mountain bikes. While this can work for lighter people on smoother trails, most of us learned to set our pressure for the worst-case scenario, because rims are expensive, even moreso with carbon, but even back in the day a rim dent could easily trash a wheel. In the long run, it's worth it for me to not run crazy-low PSI, but reasonable PSI where I know I won't have a rim-ground contact/impact, and that is definitely not in the 18-29psi range, a sharp rock at speed in that range will kill it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cleared2land said:


> Proper tire pressure is more closely correlated to equipped rider weight, not wheel size. This is certainly not a hard rule, but it works pretty well as a starting point. It's almost spot on for me.
> 
> Rider Weight in pounds divided by 7 = x
> 
> ...


So this basic starting point rule is for tubeless correct? Because I still run tubes and according to that theory I'd be way too low on psi.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So this basic starting point rule is for tubeless correct? Because I still run tubes and according to that theory I'd be way too low on psi.


I never heard of that formula when I used tubes but after running the numbers it appears I was within 1 psi of their recommendation (170#/~25psi) Now, without tubes I use pretty much the exact same pressure.

I think you got it right with "basic starting point"


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## BuickGN (Aug 25, 2008)

JohnWhiteCD said:


> Conti X-King Protection 2.2
> 155#'s kitted up which puts me right in Cleared2land's theory. (Seems reasonable btw)
> 
> The tires appear to be holding this morning. Perhaps the sealant needed a few rides?
> ...


The main goal of tubeless is not so you can run lower pressure. That might be your goal but it's been explained above why you shouldn't try and run lower pressure when tubeless. Pinch flats are a cheap warning you're too low. Why do you think you can go lower when tubeless if you're already pinching the tire/tube between the rim and an object? I've noticed the tire deforms easier when tubeless so even at the same psi, tubeless might give some of the benefits of running lower pressure but without having to actually lower pressure and risk your rims.


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## TheMachinist (Feb 24, 2007)

I haven't followed this thread closely, but I just want to add something from my experience. 

My new bike came set up for tubeless. For some reason, my front tire held pressure just fine, but the back would lose ~4 PSI a day. I even added more fluid and re-seated the bead, but there was no improvement. I noticed that the WTB Breakouts (Lite) have a bunch of "wet" spots on the sidewalls. It took me a while to realize that it is Stan's fluid. So I blamed the thin sidewalls for the pressure loss. Then, last week I was doing my standard pre-ride pump up to pressure. As I loosened the valves, the valve cores came out on both tires (both on the same day after 10 months?) . After I screwed them both back in, the rear tire is holding pressure as well as the front.

So, check your valve cores, just in case. Hope that helps somebody out there.


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## JohnWhiteCD (Aug 28, 2015)

It took three rides/days to seal properly. A little patience and some extra pressure may be necessary for the first few days.


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## Arnaldo (Dec 9, 2013)

The formula is from Stan's website and is a good, widely accepted starting point for TUBELESS. Never heard of a tube formula other than going within the tire PSI range that feels good for you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> John, tire pressure is defendant in a lot of things. One of those things is the strength of the tire that you have. Don't worry about these super low psi numbers that everyone is bragging about. It means absolutely nothing. Run what pressure works for your tire, weight and riding style.


Bingo. Tire pressure depends on the tire & rim combo, your weight, and your riding style & terrain. The "generally accepted" Stan's guidelines would put me in the 20-23psi range, at that pressure the tires on my enduro bike would be torn off the rims within 5 minutes of hitting the trails since I ride that bike like I stole it. But I can safely run that pressure on my XC bike since I'm not riding it like an out of control lunatic.

The point of tubeless is not to run stupid low tire pressures. Tubeless is about getting better tire conformance, traction, flat prevention, and reduced rolling resistance at a given tire pressure. I actually run a bit more pressure with my tubeless setups since the added traction gives me more speed, which means I'm hitting things harder and need more protection for the rims.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Sideknob said:


> Tried tubeless - OK when it's going OK but a PITA when you do get a decent hole in the tyre and it won't seal. A sticky mess on the trail.
> 
> I don't get so many flats running tubes that stopping to pop a tube in is a big deal, so I just run regular tubes and tube tyres now.


That's why I always carry a tube. I don't get many flats...only one in the last two years...but it would not reseal so I cut my losses and threw the tube in.

Finished the ride uneventfully.

The only drawback to running tubeless for me is that I had to buy an air compressor to install them. CO2 cartridges get expensive and sometimes won't seat the bead and I've only had a few tires I could seat with a hand pump. This can be a problem on the trail, hence the tube.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

An air compressor does make life easier.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

TheDwayyo said:


> Occasionally a seemingly avid cyclist will have me change a tube for him at the shop... Sometimes I know them well enough to ask 'why don't you do this yourself, how do you change them when on a ride?' Usually they say something like 'I can, I just would rather you do it... When I get a flat I call for a ride.' Not my style, but I guess if you can afford it why not? I love making easy money for the shop.


I occasionally have my bike store set up tubeless tires for me and even do some repair work that I can do myself. It's a question of time. Sometimes it's easier to drop the bike off on the way to work and pick it up the next day.

I'll pay a little bit of money for convenience.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*440 posts???*

"I'm getting sick of dealing with tubeless"

This^^^ ...and I don't even use the stuff


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not telling you otherwise but IMHO tubeless tires don't really allow you to run lower pressures than ones with tubes. Of course you _can_ lower the psi on a tubeless wheel while avoiding (most) pinch flats but you'll just dent the rim instead. The ol' "snake bite" is a gentle reminder that you've exceeded the limitations of your tire/rim/weight combo.


What? Most people are able to use lower pressure. With the wider rims and stiffer sidewalls. Less rolling resistance without tubes, better grip with lower pressure. No pinch flats, no dented rims. YRMV.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

leeboh said:


> What? Most people are able to use lower pressure. With the wider rims and stiffer sidewalls.


As far as rims strikes are concerned wider rims and stiffer sidewalls have the same effect with or without tubes. Tubes cut easier than tires so you can use lower psi tubeless and still avoid pinch flats, but sealant does not stop the tire from contacting the rim.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)




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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm sick and tired of these mother****ing tubes in these mother****ing tires!!!!!!


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

A riding mate uses latex tubes with a tiny bit of sealant inside. He claims they're more puncture resistant anyway and roll way better than regular tubes. 

Perhaps another viable alternative for those who don't want to mess with tubeless.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

leeboh said:


> What? Most people are able to use lower pressure. With the wider rims and stiffer sidewalls. Less rolling resistance without tubes, better grip with lower pressure. No pinch flats, no dented rims. YRMV.


I'd wager that a slightly stiffer sidewall makes all of jack **** difference in preventing rim strikes. Tubeless tires vary so widely in terms of sidewalls and stiffness, from a maxxis DH casing to a super-light XC.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I had a Schwalbe Nobby Nic that after a few months started developing little pinholes all over it that just kept leaking and never seamed to seal.

Might just be an issue with that tire.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

kapusta said:


> I had a Schwalbe Nobby Nic that after a few months started developing little pinholes all over it that just kept leaking and never seamed to seal.
> 
> Might just be an issue with that tire.


Before you mount a new tire, turn it inside out, paint a coat of sealant on it, let it dry, do it one more time, flip it outside in, and mount it tubless as you normally would.


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## Trevor Ochmonek (May 9, 2015)

This thread is awesome. I feel bad for some of those who try but can't figure out tubeless; not because they don't run tubeless but because they are just dumb.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ Be careful there.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have set up dozens of tubeless setups, from proper TLR tires on TLR rims to ghetto set ups to in-between and never had one I couldn't get to work. Last night I was setting up some new TLR tires on some potentially TLR rims. If you are having issues with tires not holding air, I would almost always bet on a crappy taping job. Had to re-tape one of his rims (done by the LBS) with a new stretch of 1" Gorilla tape...aired up with a floor pump. Its been a re-occurring theme and I don't even mess around now. If it has tape that doesn't go side-of-rim to side-of-rim, I just yank it and re-tape. The tape can get easily damaged during tire swaps and if your tape isn't wide enough, it can move under pressure and expose the nipple holes.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Tubeless all year, no flats except two torn sidewalls. Went out on a demo bike today with tubes, got two pinch flats. I cannot stand tubes.


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