# Back Pain, Handlebar Position/Reach, and Such...



## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Hey All,

Did a little searching and didn't really find this discussed here. Apologies if I missed something.

I've recently started riding a 29er 19" coming from a 26er "L" C-dale. I've been getting intense back spasms after riding the 29er in my lumbar. I just rode the old 26er and had nothing again.

I actually believe that my handlebars are too far out and/or maybe too high making my back muscles and such do too much work to balance. 

I am getting arching pain spams, not bending over spasms. When the spasm occurs I usually fall to the ground and curl up into a ball and pray to NANCY!

I've found a few PDF PHD/Thesis about bike fit and position. 975 pages of stats and mostly about road riding and spinning.

I've started doing back/core specific stretches and exercises. I feel better...

However, can someone link me or tell me what they know about handlebar positioning? I know some basics but I'd like to hear from someone who's been in the same boat and see what they did. Specifically for MTB if possible.

I feel as though that if I bring the handlebar reach in with a shorter stem and lower it to be more below the seat more, thus I will be putting more weight on the arms. I am going to do that any way so that I know. ( share the results later )

I'd rather have a soar neck and numbly wrists than a bad back. Heck I'd rather have 3 flat tires during a ride than have back pain after...

Should I have to trade one for the other?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Don't trade one pain for another....you will end up with everything hurting....

Yes a stretched out cockpit can cause back and neck pain....

Measure up the old bike vs the new bike...

make one change at a time...

It can take several weeks for the body to become accustomed to a new position.


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## TenSpeed (Feb 14, 2012)

I have found that it isn't always the handlebar position. I was having back pains and simply slightly adjusted my seat height, and it went away. It is all trial and error I think. Take lots of measurements, and start writing down what works for you, as far as stem length, rise, etc. When you find a good seatpost height, mark the seatpost with a Sharpie. Until you find the right height, use electrical tape. Works perfectly for a situation like this. Also consider the position of the saddle on the post itself. A slight adjustment fore or aft might make all the difference in the world.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

If you set them up the same the problem would not persist no? Once I have a position over the pedals and reach to the bars and bar height is figured out, I replicate it from bike to bike. Hope you find some answers in that, good luck.


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## wahday (Mar 23, 2012)

Ok, I’m not an expert, but I have spent a good deal of time fiddling with my rides to fit just right. Here’s what I learned from reading stuff and fine tuning my setups: you have three points of contact on your bike – hands, butt and feet. Good fit means making sure that you can shift your weight among these easily to accommodate changing terrain. It also means that no one point should bear too much weight or you will be sore and also unable to shift weight when needed. Your inseam (floor to crotch length) and reach (a combo of arm and torso lengths) impact how a particular bike should be adjusted to your body. Even someone the same height and weight as you is likely to need some changes in setup. 

The principle I use for a road bike is to get on the bike and have someone hold it so you can be in the riding position. You should be able to comfortably lift your hands off the bars for a few seconds without falling forward. In general, seat and top of the bars should be at more or less the same position. For mountain biking, the bars can be a little below the saddle. But not too far. This allows for a more aggressive riding position – head and shoulders low, butt a bit off the saddle.

As to the back pain in particular and the issue of bars – note that your saddle can move fore and aft and tilt up and down. Saddle position has a big impact on what happens up at the bars and certainly your lower back, so I would play with that before swapping stems and the like. If the bars and stem are spec, there is probably a reason for it. Of course every body is different…. But try adjusting the angle of your saddle a bit. Pointed down too far and you slide forward, too far back and you will feel the nose pressing on your taint (and this may tilt your hips back – one way to induce lower back pain). If you feel there is too much reach to the bars, try sliding the saddle forward on their rails to shorten that distance.

The other thing I will say is to adjust only one factor at a time or you will have a difficult time figuring out what changes are working and what are not. Go on a few rides with your multi-tool. Stop and make adjustments as you go. Ride the terrain you plan to use the bike on as well. My mountain bike is setup for trails, but I would change some things if it was primarily ridden on roads for commuting. Plan to spend a long ride or however long it takes to get it dialed in just right. Its well worth the effort.

Another idea is to just drop in your local LBS and see if they can help get you in the zone. Many places will do an elaborate fitting process, but I’m sure you could just get some sound advice if you don’t want to pay for that. From there, fine tuned adjustments are not too difficult to do on your own.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

IDK, I'd suspect a more rigid ride could be at work here too. Aluminum vs steel, big/low volume tire vs smaller/higher, suspension?

The members gave you some good advice. Compare the bike that works/fits well.

AZ is spot on. Get the saddle height, for/aft set up first to your legs/butt and start from there.


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## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

Not me but my girlfriend had lower back issues very badly after switching her to a new FS from a hardtail non the less. Similar to what wahday said, try tilting the seat back to get yourself to be able to easily balance on the seat when taking your hands off of the handlebars. If your seat is tilted to far forward it is forcing your lower back to bend forward and then your arms are going to try and correct this by pushing your body up and bending your upper back backwards creating a kink effect. I hope you get it figured out so you can enjoy the new ride!


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## ZXFT (Oct 17, 2010)

often times on 29ers the front end is higher than on a 26er, so make sure that is corrected for.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks for positive responses.

I think what I wanted to ask more was does anyone have a case where lowering the bar helped relieved back pain?

The seat I know I got right. Height and fore/aft. Leg length and knees feel great!

I got a flat bar on there now opposed to the big riser one. Will ride tomorrow and report. Again thanks.


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## ZmyDust (May 13, 2011)

Interested in this as well. I rode my new bike about 15 miles yesterday and started to get some nasty lower back pain. Could be that I'm on a HT an didn't stand over the bumpy stuff enough. I'm a tall guy at 6'4 riding a 21 inch frame and I'm pretty stretched out. My goofy stock stem has a ridiculously high rise and is probably 120mm and thinking a 50 or 70 mm stem with 6deg rise might be the place to start. I also feel like my seat is in a great position. I will also report what I find. 

Is it possible, like the OP suggested, that bars too high can create bak pain?


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

hmmm....after reading this I think I need a shorter stem...


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok, back at the screen here and can share some infos that I found. Plus I went to the Physio and got some good advice.

First Links:

Interesting tips: Technique: Perfect Mountain Bike Fit - BikeRadar

The elbow on the seat head to the middle finger tip was new for me.

Good Video: Professional Fitting - Part 2 - YouTube

Curved Back versus Neutral Back Argument: Cycling Posture Part I | King BikeFit

Physio:

This morning had a visit to the "Kine" / Physio ...? to make sure I hadn't done some major damage. She decompressed my lumbar felt nothing too bad and now I feel great! Highly recommend that!

She works with small cycling teams here in Belgium. She gave me a ton of info but the 3 main points I came away with for now were:

1) You need to do about 15 - 20 minutes of stretches and excises each morning to strengthen and loosen your core. Especially if you have kids that need to be picked up, over 30, and did stupid violent sports like I did as a youngster. She gave a book of exercises, to my surprise sit ups are no longer recommended, plus most can be done while you are still in bed. Sweet!

2) Your arms and butt need to form a tripod that evenly supports your upper body weight. If you are sitting too "upright" too much "stack weight" is on your pelvis and spine. All shocks and bumps go into your back. Also if you sit too "upright" your back muscles are stressed too much to keep the posture and balance on the bike and not your arms. Imagine trying to lean forward in a chair for an hour with no arm/elbow support.

Arms need to leave the torso at 90 degrees. Handlebar width needs to be the same as the shoulders. Wrists and butt need to have the same weight on them.

3) If you sit too bent over, you lose some of the power in your legs. When you push in the legs the butt will rise up. Wrists and shoulders will hurt from increased load. Necks will usually hurt from always flexing to look up. However, the back does take on less of a load. A balance has to be found between the two.

I'll bring my bike to her friday to have a look. She has these pressure pads that will measure the weight on my handle bar grips and the seat.

For now I will try a ride tonight with the flat bar and stem lowered to a few centimeters below seat height. Personally for me I feel I need to a have a curved back position because of my gut, previous back injuries and poor core condition.

Again thanks to the community for being nice and helpful.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Sorry, I didn't go through the responses completely so hope it wasn't said/covered......

Since you still have your old 26er bike and am comfortable on it, why don't you just take measurements off of it and then set up the 29er the same?? Some measurements you'd use...
Saddle behind BB drop - measure from back of saddle to centre of BB on the chainstay.
Once you get that set the same then....back of saddle to front of bar.
Then check saddle to bar drop and set the same.

One small thing you might not have noticed is that you've increased your gear ratios relative going from the 26er to the 29er, so if you were accustomed to riding say 32-26 on a certain climb on the 26er, if you ride those exact same gears on the 29er it is actually a harder gear combo by about 10% and this could be enough to cause back strain. 

Some people change their rings when they move to 29ers to smaller ones to bring the ratios back closer to their old 26ers and some like me actually increase them because they find they can get better traction and climb in higher gears - to each their own, but worth a look.

One HUGE bit of advice, don't listen to your physio on the handlebar width, she's full of **it, just go measure how wide your shoulders really are, then mark your bar that width and try to ride your bike like that. Unless you're a messenger darting in and out of traffic on the road you'll likely not do well as FYI, not many people have shoulders over 22" wide and that's stupid narrow for an MTB. Another FYI on that theory, I ride a 31" wide bar and have non of the issues she says will happen from riding a wide bar. Maybe tell her she's accustomed to dealing with roadies and not MTBers, different set of needs.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

I'll be sure to let her know that someone from the internet disagrees with her... 

I believe her comment on bar width doesn't mean you must 1:1 measure your shoulders and cut your bar to exactly the same height. Her explanation was that arms spread to the outsides can lead to the shoulders pinching in. Also arms spread to the out sides have to work harder to support weight.

I'll see her Friday and get a clarification. However she is a good physio.


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## el nico (Jun 16, 2012)

In regards to you query about bar ht, I dropped one spacer out of the head tube and put up the seat by 1cm and all of a sudden my lower back copped it massively . I had better climbing control but back is now a problem. So small increments make big differences !


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Yeah, I know big deal right, what MTBer on the internet who actually rides knows more than a physio who probably doesn't even ride, let alone MTB :skep: Ever heard of people who always quote the theoretical things in life, this should work, that should work, the computer models and logic say it should, but when put into an actual physical world and real use, fail badly=a lot of the medical community.

FYI, since I moved to the wider bars and shorter stems on my bikes I have had less neck/upper back pain and I equate that to having my arms spread wider and it being easier for my arms to absorb bumps etc and my shoulders being more relaxed with the wider grip. I rode as narrow as 22" once upon a time with similar flawed thinking, then I moved wider and wider gradually till I realised the benefits of it vs the very small compromizes.



brownrl said:


> I'll be sure to let her know that someone from the internet disagrees with her...
> 
> I believe her comment on bar width doesn't mean you must 1:1 measure your shoulders and cut your bar to exactly the same height. Her explanation was that arms spread to the outsides can lead to the shoulders pinching in. Also arms spread to the out sides have to work harder to support weight.
> 
> I'll see her Friday and get a clarification. However she is a good physio.


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Well, I am listening to advice from all places and trying to make myself as educated as possible.

With all do respect I do think you could be a little nicer and considerate to the woman whom rehabilitated me after total knee surgery and successfully rehabilitated and supervised my wife's recovery not once but twice after pregnancy and oh ya, is specialized with a PHD in the field with 17 years experience running her own practice and is called upon by cycling clubs and a football club to be their trainer... 

Or you could just go on being a little jerky about it and say she's full of poo.

-5 congeniality

I fully respect that for you wider bars helped. Certainly when you look at most MTB bars, they have a 5 or 3 degree "back sweep". Which would indicate that arms do indeed need to come out to meet that angle. Which is not the same for road. Heck, for some people the color of the bike helps...

However, it's easy to see that a gymnast can hold themselves up in the air on the rings when the hands are down at the sides of the body opposed to stretched out horizontally.

Thank you for your thoughts and I will keep all things in mind.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Never said she was full of poo, just said I doubted her knowledge of MTBing. How should I know she has rehabilitated you and your family so many times, and why would/should that play any part in my comments, I'm not sure. Not to sound callous, but why do you need "recovery" after pregnancy? I honestly am interested and since you brought it up would love to hear as I've never heard of that before?



brownrl said:


> Well, I am listening to advice from all places and trying to make myself as educated as possible.
> 
> With all do respect I do think you could be a little nicer and considerate to the woman whom rehabilitated me after total knee surgery and successfully rehabilitated and supervised my wife's recovery not once but twice after pregnancy and oh ya, is specialized with a PHD in the field with 17 years experience running her own practice and is called upon by cycling clubs and a football club to be their trainer...
> 
> ...


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

LyNx said:


> Sorry, I didn't go through the responses completely so hope it wasn't said/covered......
> 
> One HUGE bit of advice, don't listen to your physio on the handlebar width, she's full of **it,


never mind. trying to have a point with you is a waste of precious time. Why did I even come here?

Post a question they said... 
it will be answered by nice rational people they said...


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok,

The first picture shows where I am at now:










The stem I lowered weeks ago, helped a bit but still had lower lumbar failures and spasms.

The bar there is a flat one and I went from 680mm wide to 580mm wide which matches more to my shoulder width and gets me out of the flying squirrel position.

Here is the old bar "large riser" with it on the bike, the hands come to a few centimeters above the seat and I am more & more convinced that caused the lower back strain. My back had to do too much balancing and correcting.










Now I am few centimeters below the seat height with my hands and I offload the weight from my back.

*30km Ride:*

Lower Back felt OK after which is a huge improvement. I did feel some of the typical "curled" back stuff but that I know and I am not too worried about. Lumbar was in order and not screwed. Knees fine, shoulders fine, elbows fine. Most noticeably I didn't curl up in the fetal position and die while trying to clean my lower legs in the shower after.

1 ride doesn't mean that everything is perfect. I know I need a few more rides to know for sure. Small changes as people mentioned above.

I did have some soreness in the neck from looking up. That I epected and will get used to again. My palms were a little sore from the extra weight for about 10 minutes after, however I ran into a "fire bush" which made my hands burn and swell anyway. I highly recommend "Sunlight" soap to stop the burn!

With a skinnier handlebar I didn't have as much leverage on the pedals to "mash". However, I didn't have any "pinched" shoulders feeling in my upper back. Thus the skinnier handle bar helps keep your shoulders "rounded" which I am told is what you want.

SO I believe I got closer to "correct" a few more rides should confirm better or tell what to do next. Friday I'll have the bike measured up and my weight distribution measured. I suspect I will need to get a shorter stem. Will wait to know more.

Again thanks to the helpful people. I am interested to hear and learn about others in similar boats. I'll update later if needed. I was really worried that I needed to get rid of the bike. I like the way 29ers ride.


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## Tybol (Mar 27, 2012)

In about 1 hour I am actually going to an appointment for muscle spasms I've been having in my lower back that cause me to fall down at times. I feel cursed! The pain is excruciating. Until I get this fixed I have to treat my mountain bike like a roadie, bouldering is out of the question, and I could drown trying to fly fish if I were in deep enough water. All of my favorite things to do put me in pain and danger... 
The movement of riding my bike has been helping lately, but I'm still in a good amount of pain most of the time. I hope you get your issue figured out quicker than it's taking me (about 3 months so far).
Hopefully I'll get some good news in a couple hours...


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Good luck fingers crossed, but I have to say that simple 'core' exercises have helped in the last weeks. Most are easier than I thought they would be.

Bird Dog: Elite Abs 2 - Bird Dog - YouTube
Cat Stretch: Angry cat stretch - YouTube
Planking: Elite Abs 7 - Plank and Side Plank - YouTube

and numerous others.

Lastly, if you work in an office, investigate the chair that you sit in. Lastly lastly, if you got kids don't pick them up. They need to learn to stay down there anyway...


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## Tybol (Mar 27, 2012)

I've been doing those and a few other stretches and core exercises my physical therapist showed me. They help a little, but not nearly enough. 
Luckily I have no kids to neglect...


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## ZmyDust (May 13, 2011)

For what it's worth now I went from this stock ridiculously high rise stem to a new 6degree 110mm raceface. That plus a slight movement of the seat and I don't seem to have any more pain. Yeah!


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## brownrl (Jan 7, 2011)

Nice stem! I love the SS cog lying around in the background!

I too have been on a few rides now since going lower with the handle bar. Back pain has subsided. Also, the skinnier handlebar 580mm I think is helping the shoulders not pinch as much.

Still need to do some more sessions with the physio. Apparently, one of my vertebrae was not connecting with the pelvis correctly. However, this is not a bike related issue. The bike riding did aggravate it though.

None the less, I had the weight pressure measured on Friday with sensor pads. The lower bar did even out the weight, moved the seat up a smidge to get things just right.


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## pureflow (May 26, 2012)

that aside, my father in law is now acquired my old hardtail. I shifted from hardtail to FS because of my back pain. 
my FIL's issues are butt, saddle height, bar height.
some stats. i'm 1.73m and he's 1.86. that old hardtail is a GT frame, M size. and my FS is a titus S size. 
true that the GT might be a little small for him. he should be doing an L or XL size. 
I swapped his saddle to a WTB saddle. cant remember model. but all i recall was it's a 495g saddle. 
swapped the thomson 90mm to a variable stem, which basically equals to 40mm length + 40mm stack height. 
and his saddle height is still lower than mine. centre of BB to top of saddle. I'm doing 68cm and he is doing 57cm. 

despite all these. he still has just 1 last issue that I cant solve. neck pain. he cant ride [email protected]/h without panting like a dog. and i have warned him never to do any neck exercises while riding. 

I do like 120-250km rides @ 26-32km/h occasionally maxing out @ 43-46km/h

he also likes to crank low gear so much. eg, 42x11-15 till he had knee problems. then i was forced to remove the 42T chainring by limiting the front De and make him do only 32T.

i know he is not fit, 55yrs old. but any ideas on the neck pain bit? 
I have already gone all out to solve his issues. except for getting a new fork and with the steerer uncut @ 30cm.

** side note. i just bought my wife a foldie. 20" dahon and she zooms past me as if she's on a roadie. I'm on a titus FTM with 1.3" slicks. 

now i have another issue with my wife's foldie. she complains about the handle bar too near. my titus's reach from tip of saddle to bar is 51cm and hers is 48cm. and she is 1.76m. is there a way to extend the bar forward? a folder doesnt have a stem like MTB/road. and her saddle is offset 20mm and her saddle is pushed as far rear as the rails are willing to go.


oh i forgot to mention, the father in law is a chinese born in china. I'm not born in china but am asian.


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