# eBike enduro racing. What should it look like?



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Considering adding an ebike class or separate ebike event to our annual enduro. I've done some research, but still would love to get some input from ebike riders as to what that race should look like.

Have you done an eBike race?

What was the format? Did you like it? What would you like to see different?

It sounds like the EWS and the BME are adding ebike events to their series this year. From what I could gather they are both changing up the courses for ebikes, adding tighter times for transition stages, and some timed technical climbing during the stages. 

A couple different loops each day with the opportunity to change out batteries between loops.

How much timed climbing should there be?

How do we monitor or enforce power output limits?

Should we just let the ebikes and traditional bikes compete at the same time on the same course just in separate categories? Can everybody get along?

So many questions..

Let me know what you think.

Disclaimer: I don't own and have never ridden a proper emtb.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

Simply have battery sizes. Big motor that guzzles more watts? Manage it better. Smaller motor, last longer etc.
Anything else would be too tricky to police.
That said, I'm not sure you could hold them in conjunction with normal bikes. Just keep them separate.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

How do you keep the same discharge amps among all ebikes, how do you know a store bought ebike hasnt been hacked or highly modified. How do you keep the Wh of each bike the same so its an even playing field. Do you have different classes of ebike race, store bought ebike vs ebike kit class vs unlimited class (yes there are people out there that have 10kw+ ebikes that can go 60mph+.)
Do you keep the mid drive ebikes in a separate class then geared hub motors and separate from direct drive hub motors. Then what about front hub vs rear hub. Then what about trapezoidal controllers vs sinusodial, or FOC controllers. 29 class and a 27.5 class. 

Far too many variations, unless you get a company like Levo to donate the exact same bicycles for all the racers to race, and have it more of a promo event for Levo.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

E-bike racing is kind of silly. It's just a competition to see who's the lightest rider realistically.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Keep it fun - same course and rules for ebikes and non-assisted. The ebike racer will gain advantage of staying fresh for the downhills, but like everyone else, they will have to display their bike handling skills and racing instincts to get a good time. During the transitions, riders will have fun talking the pros and cons of having a motor/battery for the event.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Mudguard said:


> Simply have battery sizes. Big motor that guzzles more watts? Manage it better. Smaller motor, last longer etc.
> Anything else would be too tricky to police.
> That said, I'm not sure you could hold them in conjunction with normal bikes. Just keep them separate.


Good thinking.

Spec batteries would be cool but with integration that wouldn't work.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

matt4x4 said:


> How do you keep the same discharge amps among all ebikes, how do you know a store bought ebike hasnt been hacked or highly modified. How do you keep the Wh of each bike the same so its an even playing field. Do you have different classes of ebike race, store bought ebike vs ebike kit class vs unlimited class (yes there are people out there that have 10kw+ ebikes that can go 60mph+.)
> Do you keep the mid drive ebikes in a separate class then geared hub motors and separate from direct drive hub motors. Then what about front hub vs rear hub. Then what about trapezoidal controllers vs sinusodial, or FOC controllers. 29 class and a 27.5 class.
> 
> Far too many variations, unless you get a company like Levo to donate the exact same bicycles for all the racers to race, and have it more of a promo event for Levo.


This is why motorsports have technical rules and regulations, so that some joker doesn't show up with rocket motors attached to their bike/car/boat/gokart/snowmobile/etc.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The race would have to have all racers with the same e-bike, and go through a dyno qualification.

Too many different ebikes out there on the market for sale from a store, even more different setups for ebike kits because you can have the exact same motor but it would have a different Turn-Count winding from the motor manufacturer, but then what if the racer decided to rewind the motor wires themselves for even more copper fill/more amps/more power.

Even the Lycra racer's want an advantage


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

matt4x4 said:


> The race would have to have all racers with the same e-bike, and go through a dyno qualification.


Why bother with all that? Pull the battery and weigh it. Make sure there's only one.


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## ambition>ability (Mar 27, 2019)

Just keep it the same as for regular bikes, could maybe ad an extra stage or two (or even repeat a couple) as being on an e-bike you'll get through the course much quicker. In my experience at least, most people that ride enduro capable e-bikes like riding the same terrain as normal enduro bikes, they just prefer the e-bike for getting up the hills (for whatever reason that may be).


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

ambition>ability said:


> In my experience at least, most people that ride enduro capable e-bikes like riding the same terrain as normal enduro bikes, they just prefer the e-bike for getting up the hills (for whatever reason that may be).


I'd have transition stages that sent them _up_ difficult trails. Or just include some nasty climbs as part of the stage? Otherwise what is the difference? Most seem to suggest that an e-bike isn't faster on descents, unless the stage had some serious pedalling. So send those bikes up some stuff.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Mudguard said:


> I'd have transition stages that sent them _up_ difficult trails. Or just include some nasty climbs as part of the stage? Otherwise what is the difference? Most seem to suggest that an e-bike isn't faster on descents, unless the stage had some serious pedalling. So send those bikes up some stuff.


I agree. Make the timed sections eBike worthy .

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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> How do you keep the same discharge amps among all ebikes, how do you know a store bought ebike hasnt been hacked or highly modified. How do you keep the Wh of each bike the same so its an even playing field. Do you have different classes of ebike race, store bought ebike vs ebike kit class vs unlimited class (yes there are people out there that have 10kw+ ebikes that can go 60mph+.)
> Do you keep the mid drive ebikes in a separate class then geared hub motors and separate from direct drive hub motors. Then what about front hub vs rear hub. Then what about trapezoidal controllers vs sinusodial, or FOC controllers. 29 class and a 27.5 class.
> 
> Far too many variations, unless you get a company like Levo to donate the exact same bicycles for all the racers to race, and have it more of a promo event for Levo.


One of the reasons we haven't done it yet, despite several requests is the potential rules enforcing can of worms it opens. I had no idea there were so many potential worms.

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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Mudguard said:


> Why bother with all that? Pull the battery and weigh it. Make sure there's only one.


Do the batteries weigh more when they're juiced/modified?

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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> Keep it fun - same course and rules for ebikes and non-assisted. The ebike racer will gain advantage of staying fresh for the downhills, but like everyone else, they will have to display their bike handling skills and racing instincts to get a good time. During the transitions, riders will have fun talking the pros and cons of having a motor/battery for the event.


Good point. Thanks.

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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

KRob said:


> Do the batteries weigh more when they're juiced/modified?


I have absolutely no idea. But my limited understanding is that once you're using lithium it is a space issue, there's only so many cells you can stuff in there. 
So rather than faffing about with outputs or dynos etc, you'd simply limit the battery size.
Think of it another way, for a motorsport race, let people bring whatever they like, but they're only allowed 20L of fuel.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

ambition>ability said:


> Just keep it the same as for regular bikes, could maybe ad an extra stage or two (or even repeat a couple) as being on an e-bike you'll get through the course much quicker. In my experience at least, most people that ride enduro capable e-bikes like riding the same terrain as normal enduro bikes, they just prefer the e-bike for getting up the hills (for whatever reason that may be).


What's the point in e- bikes then? In that case just shuttle the riders up on their bikes.
Create something interesting, make it harder overall. With not only gnarly descents but technical climbs. This will lead to a heck of a lot of respect for the race class and riders in general. If they just get a boost to the top, well that's less skill and fitness overall and frankly, hurts credibility. Then they just look lazy.

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

KRob said:


> One of the reasons we haven't done it yet, despite several requests is the potential rules enforcing can of worms it opens. I had no idea there were so many potential worms.


Yeah there are many variables in the ebike world, in terms of power and its delivery method. You'd have to have an "In Good Faith" attitude, and even an experience ebiker thats been in the game, fixing ebikes, making ebikes, selling kits, selling installed ebike kits on bicycles might not be able to tell. Yeah sure having a dyno to test the bike is all fine and dandy, but there can also be little tricks, a hidden button to switch between stock and hacked mode. Keep it all the exact same ebike, or keep it all the same manufacturer ebike, or mix manufacturers and just check the specs of the racers and have that "In Good Faith" attitude that people will be honest, most will be excited just to race. Technical course, fall lines, jumps, cliffs, going up hill, down hill, technical sections, muddy sections, rockey sections. Competitive course building has been 25 years in the past for me doing it on the mountains white stuff.



KRob said:


> Do the batteries weigh more when they're juiced/modified?


You can have the same weight battery, but it can be built completely differently.
You could have a 10S4P battery (40 18650 cans) which might be 36V 10Ah 20A (as an example) battery or a 20S2P (40 18650 cans) 72V 5Ah 100A battery. Both have the exact same watt-hour (wh) battery, can go the same distance at the same throttle, but the 72V can go much much much faster on the flats, up hills, going faster uses up more battery power. The battery would weight the same, but be a different shape. 36V would be say 80mm wide vs 40mm wide. But they could build the battery somewhat close to the shape. I know the store bought ebikes are highly computerized, be hard to hack that, but doable.

One battery iss slow and weak, the other fast and powerful.
Think of it like a small 3 cylinder Suzuki with a top speed of 20mph vs a 8 cylinder corvette (40mph, bicycle speed terms.)

The idea of it being a technical race is good, that's what you want, skill over power. Light and nimble over Heavy and hard to maneuver.

It does come down to having a level playing field, in terms of the ebike specifications. But that level ebike playing field has its challenges.

Do what you want, whatever gets you out and riding, out in the fresh air.

Giving ebike access and exposure to the greater majority of the population is a good thing. Especially now with the older generations, but also the kids want to race.

You have a good idea there with competive ebike racing. Gotta get the need for speed out, and in a race thats good.

I wish you luck.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Mudguard said:


> I have absolutely no idea. But my limited understanding is that once you're using lithium it is a space issue, there's only so many cells you can stuff in there.
> So rather than faffing about with outputs or dynos etc, you'd simply limit the battery size.
> Think of it another way, for a motorsport race, let people bring whatever they like, but they're only allowed 20L of fuel.


Gotcha. Makes sense.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

matt4x4 said:


> Yeah there are many variables in the ebike world, in terms of power and its delivery method. You'd have to have an "In Good Faith" attitude, and even an experience ebiker thats been in the game, fixing ebikes, making ebikes, selling kits, selling installed ebike kits on bicycles might not be able to tell. Yeah sure having a dyno to test the bike is all fine and dandy, but there can also be little tricks, a hidden button to switch between stock and hacked mode. Keep it all the exact same ebike, or keep it all the same manufacturer ebike, or mix manufacturers and just check the specs of the racers and have that "In Good Faith" attitude that people will be honest, most will be excited just to race. Technical course, fall lines, jumps, cliffs, going up hill, down hill, technical sections, muddy sections, rockey sections. Competitive course building has been 25 years in the past for me doing it on the mountains white stuff.
> 
> You can have the same weight battery, but it can be built completely differently.
> You could have a 10S4P battery (40 18650 cans) which might be 36V 10Ah 20A (as an example) battery or a 20S2P (40 18650 cans) 72V 5Ah 100A battery. Both have the exact same watt-hour (wh) battery, can go the same distance at the same throttle, but the 72V can go much much much faster on the flats, up hills, going faster uses up more battery power. The battery would weight the same, but be a different shape. 36V would be say 80mm wide vs 40mm wide. But they could build the battery somewhat close to the shape. I know the store bought ebikes are highly computerized, be hard to hack that, but doable.
> ...


Sounds to me like battery weight is the best way to level the playing field ombined with the obvious rule that no recharges or replacement batteries are allowed for the day. Just like the public, racers need to complete their ride day on 1 charge. 
This will drive development of better product, as well as require racers to use a lot of their own leg power if they want to complete the stage.

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## wilks (Jan 15, 2004)

Kent, Can you not talk to other race promotors? Obviously when you think about motor racing the whole formula 1 cars are the same but they are highly regulated. I have a giant reign ebike which would be good in an Enduro race. I'm no quicker on that thing downhill than I am on my Yeti SB5.5 unless I can get a few revolutions of the cranks in. Climbing is a different world though. You should definitely try and include some steep technical climbs. You still have to have good bike handling skills to clean stuff. The motor does not do it all... 

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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Personally I think people are over thinking this. Ebike are only faster on the climbs. Down hill my speeds are just about the same. It wouldn’t matter if my ebike had 40hp and a top speed of 80mph. I couldn’t go any faster on the down hill. The trail dictates the speed. All a promoter needs to do is analyze the top 3 finishers ebikes for modifications. Doing the entire field would just be a waste of time. 


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> Personally I think people are over thinking this. Ebike are only faster on the climbs. Down hill my speeds are just about the same. It wouldn't matter if my ebike had 40hp and a top speed of 80mph. I couldn't go any faster on the down hill. The trail dictates the speed. All a promoter needs to do is analyze the top 3 finishers ebikes for modifications. Doing the entire field would just be a waste of time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My crystal ball - when the podium includes an OEM ebike, this will start the demise of non-assisted bikes at Enduros and then promoters can begin to include the uphill trials-like stages for even more fun . . .


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> My crystal ball - when the podium includes an OEM ebike, this will start the demise of non-assisted bikes at Enduros and then promoters can begin to include the uphill trials-like stages for even more fun . . .


As challenging as a technical climb can be, this is where a hopped up ebike can make a difference. But again, the promoter will immediately test out the 3 top bikes for modifications.

Ebikes gains are incredible right now and I do see more ebikes than I have ever seen before. I don't believe this will be the end of racing normal bikes.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Of course it's not the end of normal bike racing. E- bikes make sense for Enduro terrain but I can't think of any other application where an e- bike would be better than a bike. 


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

wilks said:


> Kent, Can you not talk to other race promotors? Obviously when you think about motor racing the whole formula 1 cars are the same but they are highly regulated. I have a giant reign ebike which would be good in an Enduro race. I'm no quicker on that thing downhill than I am on my Yeti SB5.5 unless I can get a few revolutions of the cranks in. Climbing is a different world though. You should definitely try and include some steep technical climbs. You still have to have good bike handling skills to clean stuff. The motor does not do it all...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


I've read what BME and EWS are doing, but our event is much smaller and grassroots. We do have a pro class with cash payout, but if we do eBikes, we'll just do amateur, for fun and trophies classes.

I don't know which smaller, local promoters are doing eBike enduros. I was hoping maybe some would chime in here. I'll look into it. That's a good idea.

I like the idea of including some technical climbs in timed stages.

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## ambition>ability (Mar 27, 2019)

Seriously couldn't care about credibility, we all do this for fun and I'm pretty sure none of us are making a living from it - well I'm not at least! But if that's your thing, then I'll counter by saying credibility comes from your downhill skills, not your ability to climb a hill. You just have look at any pro riders Insta, they sure dont show them riding up hills (Ludo May excluded, that guy is next level). And I'd much rather ride up the hill in the fresh air than share a sweaty stinky shuttle rig. Not to mention the hassle for organisers having to run shuttles.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

OK, For years I ran and organized sailboat racing, multilevel stuff and as funny as it sounds there is some similarities. Basically you want a level playing field where it is fair for all competitors and you want to have a format where it is not consumed with tech inspection and last minute decision. 

I don't know what level this race is, fun? Pro? et et. If it were me I would have classes and classes based on preregistration. Simply I would have a stock class one class. This class may be a single brand and model based on preregistration or a mixture of brands. then I would have a open class, "run what you brung". This is the way we would do big multilevel events and small ones too. It keeps administration to a minimum to work on other things. IMO.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> ...All a promoter needs to do is analyze the top 3 finishers ebikes for modifications. Doing the entire field would just be a waste of time.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what I was thinking. Outside of the podium (or prizes) it doesn't matter all that much.

I mean: sure, it sucks to get beaten by a cheater, whether e-bike or not. But my 20th, could have been a 17th or my 10th could have been a 7th or 8th...it doesn't really matter all that much.

Put rules out there, and it's mostly the honor system (except for anyone winning stuff).


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

ambition>ability said:


> Seriously couldn't care about credibility, we all do this for fun and I'm pretty sure none of us are making a living from it - well I'm not at least! But if that's your thing, then I'll counter by saying credibility comes from your downhill skills, not your ability to climb a hill. You just have look at any pro riders Insta, they sure dont show them riding up hills (Ludo May excluded, that guy is next level). And I'd much rather ride up the hill in the fresh air than share a sweaty stinky shuttle rig. Not to mention the hassle for organisers having to run shuttles.


It's interesting you mentioned that. I just listened to a podcast from BME with Kyle Warner, one of the top EWS riders in the world who is doing BME's ebike class this year, and he actually admitted that part of what he liked about ebikes is that he's lazy. He can do the same race that used to take him 6-8 hours in like 3-4 and enjoy the massive climbing transfers much more. I was a little surprised by this. I thought the top riders would relish the challenge of racing up some techy sections. I guess it depends what their background and strengths are. I know of some top pros who've come out to our race that are beasts on the pedally timed sections and love the long climbing days we do, whereas others have more of a DH background and hate them.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that enduro ebikers also come in all varieties.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

quadzilla411 said:


> If it were me I would have classes and classes based on preregistration. Simply I would have a stock class one class. This class may be a single brand and model based on preregistration or a mixture of brands. then I would have a open class, "run what you brung". This is the way we would do big multilevel events and small ones too. It keeps administration to a minimum to work on other things. IMO.


That's a good idea. We may do something like this if we host a separate ebike event for sure, which is the way I'm leaning. I guess you'd still have to police the stock Class 1 bikes though in some way.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

It should like like it is going to be fun for all participants, including the conventional bikers. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater as there is still quite a bit of angst regarding eBikes in general. So there's that.

In regards to classes I agree about the Class I type being its own class. I would wager that 90% of your potential market has this type of bike. You should get an idea of this during pre-reg. 

Then as also suggested just have an open class. However this should exclude the guy on the SurRon, pedal kit or not. But it would include BBSHD owners for example. And general throttle type conversion bikes. 

The battery issue can be solved by providing a course profile and distance. It would be up to the entrant to provide enough power by figuring it out for their own self and if they come up short better luck next time. I would suppose that there wouldn't be alot of outlets around so they would have to come to the party fully charged. Battery management it is a big part of eBiking. 

If available a couple of timed gnarly hill climbs thrown in would be better than timing between stages. Mixing eBikes trying to get there as fast as they can and enduro bro's taking their time might be a problem. Or if possible make longer transfers on different tracks for the eBikers and time them. Make it difficult but perhaps consider that a fit/skilled rider on a Levo SL could win. 

There was an eEnduro series across the pond last year and you might see if you can find someone on one of the EU forums that could give you some feedback as to how they were run.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Bigwheel said:


> there is still quite a bit of angst regarding eBikes in general. So there's that.


In day to day life, that is not the case. Everyone seems to be intrigued about ebikes, that is why a lot of people are asking the same questions over and over and over again. How fast does it go, how far does it go, how much does it cost. Thats also why the vast majority of people turn their head, smile when they know its an ebike coming towards them. The other have no clue its an ebike and think its just a regular ebike. It can be very hard to tell without a side view. Even then the store bought ebikes like the Trance or Levo its hard to tell if its an ebike because its moving, the rider is pedaling and the walkers/runners/other bicyclists arent paying attention.

In day to day life, the vast majority of people are indifferent or intrigued. Its the hardcores in the online forums that have a different attitude. They could be hardcore roadies/lycra's or really enthused enthusiests. Whatever gets people out and riding is a good thing, the older generation has the money to spend, want to get more active and yet dont want to pedal too hard up a hill. Those wont be racing, but the younger ones would be more into analog bicycles. Its everyone in between that is the market for racing ebikes.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

KRob said:


> Considering adding an ebike class or separate ebike event to our annual enduro. I've done some research, but still would love to get some input from ebike riders as to what that race should look like.
> 
> Have you done an eBike race?
> 
> ...


Absolutely nothing different for an eMTB Enduro, though I'd put them in their own category(ies) if the numbers permit due to some fundamental handling differences that the extra weight brings. The superlight eMTBs aren't suitable enduro race bikes (yet), so don't concern yourself with them.

Basically the eMTB is an advantage on the transfer stages and a disadvantage on most timed stages (segments with a lot of flat would be exceptions).

Don't worry about battery swaps. Unlikely they would come into play in an enduro.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Absolutely nothing different for an eMTB Enduro, though I'd put them in their own category(ies) if the numbers permit due to some fundamental handling differences that the extra weight brings. The superlight eMTBs aren't suitable enduro race bikes (yet), so don't concern yourself with them.
> 
> Basically the eMTB is an advantage on the transfer stages and a disadvantage on most timed stages (segments with a lot of flat would be exceptions).
> 
> Don't worry about battery swaps. Unlikely they would come into play in an enduro.


If a event is several days like a weekend you would assume there would be at least several races per day for two days. Would it be a "level playing field" for a racer to have maybe three batteries and a motorhome with generator so that racer could swap a fresh battery every race? Would it be a "level playing field" for that racer to bring several custom wheel sets to swap out for different terrain in individual races? I would think for Class one bikes it would be more fair to have pretty much box stock bikes with few exceptions and the racers privateers. The rest in the "open" class "run what you brung". IMO


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Assuming everyone is climbing every transfer, and not taking a lift (that seems unlikely, given the direction many enduro races are going), eBikes should absolutely be in a different class.

Anyone who says an eBike doesn't impact descending doesn't understand fatigue. Yes, the work you put in going up the hill most definitely impacts your ability to descend. There's a reason EWS pros, when they actually have to climb a hill, go as slow as they possibly can. They are trying to minimize fatigue. Suggesting otherwise is just ignorant.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

quadzilla411 said:


> If a event is several days like a weekend you would assume there would be at least several races per day for two days. Would it be a "level playing field" for a racer to have maybe three batteries and a motorhome with generator so that racer could swap a fresh battery every race? Would it be a "level playing field" for that racer to bring several custom wheel sets to swap out for different terrain in individual races? I would think for Class one bikes it would be more fair to have pretty much box stock bikes with few exceptions and the racers privateers. The rest in the "open" class "run what you brung". IMO


Interestingly, you can run most slow chargers off of a 150W inverter, so almost any vehicle can charge an eMTB battery (e.g. a Shimano 6002 charger).


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Assuming everyone is climbing every transfer, and not taking a lift (that seems unlikely, given the direction many enduro races are going), eBikes should absolutely be in a different class.
> 
> Anyone who says an eBike doesn't impact descending doesn't understand fatigue. Yes, the work you put in going up the hill most definitely impacts your ability to descend. There's a reason EWS pros, when they actually have to climb a hill, go as slow as they possibly can. They are trying to minimize fatigue. Suggesting otherwise is just ignorant.


It also can be a disadvantage in descending as well - those extra 15-25 pounds do come into play when you're trying to toss the bike around or hold a line through a tight turn. But absolutely you're less fatigued overall - and definitely should be in their own class.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Assuming everyone is climbing every transfer, and not taking a lift (that seems unlikely, given the direction many enduro races are going), eBikes should absolutely be in a different class.
> 
> Anyone who says an eBike doesn't impact descending doesn't understand fatigue. Yes, the work you put in going up the hill most definitely impacts your ability to descend. There's a reason EWS pros, when they actually have to climb a hill, go as slow as they possibly can. They are trying to minimize fatigue. Suggesting otherwise is just ignorant.


Good point. Our race has only one (partial) shuttle at the end of the day for the 7th and final pro stage, Every other stage is pedal up on your own. And yes, those climbs absolutely affect how much energy and legs you have left to power through the timed stages. Even purely downhill sections take a ton of energy when you're trying to go as fast as you can. Our timed sections aren't all downhill and there's a few short climbs and flatter sections on every stage, so ebikes, I think would have an advantage on both the transfers and the timed sections.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

How I'd plan an ebike race:

I'd utilize technology, combination of GPS and current timing devices, to do a competitive version of what I consider to be normal emtb ride, scored by points through rankings.

Points for various things:

- overall time ranking (generally worth 15% of total possible score)
- segment time ranking (generally worth 50%, split between many possible segments)
- "cargo weight" hauling ranking (generally worth 35% maybe)

The course will have a single start and end point, but multiple routes between the two of various challenge levels. Challenge levels include virtually unrideable terrain where one must pick up and carry their bike (hard enduro MX style?). The various segments are points of interest that have spectator and camera coverage. The race can be multiple stages, where the end point could instead be a checkpoint where a rider will have a certain amount of time free to do alterations to their bike and gear, where they have a small holding space of spare equipment waiting and access to water, food, electricity, etc. The race can continue in reverse for a simple 2 stage race that mimics an out-and-back trip, or a multiple stage big loop of a course.

Racers select an intended route with the challenge tuned to their preferences. One may take a well traveled path, going for speed and efficiency, and perhaps choose to carry a cargo load of 15 lbs extra on their back and another 15 on their bike, to the finish for bonus points. Another might choose a route that requires more technical skills, and choose to run less cargo weight.

The way points are awarded will encourage racers to diversify their challenge, such as points being awarded to the top ranking ones for each challenge level. Some will just do what they've trained, and be confident that they'll rank highly. Others may train a variety of ways in order to take on opportunities for points where they can get a high ranking due to less competition. For example, there may be 3 possible segments after a checkpoint that you can choose from. The top ten rankers of one segment will earn points equivalent to the top 10 of another segment. The 3 different forks might not merge back together, so one route might not have a segment to be grouped with the other routes, and other routes may further fork.

Basically I'd like to promote skills and equipment refinement that gets emtb riders to consider avoiding high traffic congestion, by considering rougher less traveled routes, and also consider using their emtb as an utilitarian mode of transportation (cargo carrying) that adapts to a wide variety of terrain, going places no other vehicle can go. I'd set the race up as open class until fields become so large that they require splitting up. Maybe introduce limited classes, if it proves to be interesting and doesn't arbitrarily limit design creativity on bike equipment.

For example, I might set a start point at a gather point, like a large parking lot. I'd put a check point at a parking space that is partway up a mountain. At that checkpoint, I might choose to not let racers have any of their own personal equipment, but have access to shared resources that I (race organizer) provide. That check point might only be 1/3 of the way in, where racers can choose to pick up extra cargo for the rest of the course, where they travel to the peak and descend it with a different route, which have a few options on the way down. On the way up, there are also choices, like the main fire road, or some side singletrack which can be quite tricky or out of the way. The end point will be close to the start point, and be at a bigger venue like some schoolgrounds, that's scaled accordingly to the size of the event and participation to host festivities.

I'd add a twist to the "overall" time thing, by making contestants call out their expected finish time, giving incentive to call out short times and for riders to meet such an ETA with wizard-like accuracy, and planning start times by making everyone finish in the same time window. If multiple ppl choose a similar finish time, I'd group start them, otherwise release ppl relatively staggered.

I'd consider adding other scoring factors, that might require judging, such as having contestants taking pictures of interesting things on their trip, and having contestants make themselves more socially presentable after the ride (if one needs to change clothes, this is included in their overall time).


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Sorry, my comments were assuming that a race event that included Ebikes would have a strong uphill component(racing uphill) as well as a downhill component. Sound like this one is adding ebikes to a established Enduro race format. So the uphill part is to get back to the staging area. I will crawl back to my lurking status. Quad......


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> How I'd plan an ebike race:
> 
> I'd utilize technology, combination of GPS and current timing devices, to do a competitive version of what I consider to be normal emtb ride, scored by points through rankings.
> 
> ...


As fun and interesting as that format sounds.... from a person who has been putting on mountain bike enduros and motorcycle desert races for 30+ year with very few volunteers and club members, it sounds like a logistical and organizational nightmare.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

quadzilla411 said:


> Sorry, my comments were assuming that a race event that included Ebikes would have a strong uphill component(racing uphill) as well as a downhill component. Sound like this one is adding ebikes to a established Enduro race format. So the uphill part is to get back to the staging area. I will crawl back to my lurking status. Quad......


Your comments are valid. That's what I'm trying to figure out being almost totally ignorant on the subject of ebike racing. I wondered the same thing. Could we use the same course as our normal race (but on a different day) and time some uphill tech stages? It does make the battery and power output policing more of an issue though from what I'm hearing.


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## quadzilla411 (Feb 25, 2015)

Sure and thanks and for sure I am new to ebikes but not new to off rode bikes but always had high end stuff. Anyway, IMO, a Enduro off road Ebike is more than a shuttle so you can rage downhill but for me "uphill is the new downhill" as the bikes do rage uphill. In a racing sense racing uphill on a Ebike makes the racing tactical especially for class one bikes and strict rules. So for example suppose you have three heats and could only use one battery. The racers who start off by using Turbo may place high in the initial races but run out of battery on the last heat and end up bike hiking. The racers who conserve battery initially would have battery left and place higher maybe winning the event? Just a thought........ Now, going to my garage and oil my chain, load up and put in some mileage.......


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Could just make the entire race length timed, ups and downs, for the e- bikes. And a single max battery size. 

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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Could just make the entire race length timed, ups and downs, for the e- bikes. And a single max battery size.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


That's called an XC race. ;-)


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

RickBullottaPA said:


> That's called an XC race. ;-)


Lol. Maybe. 
But from a race promoter's point of view it's easy, doesn't require any additional infrastructure or much planning, and it's also a good match for how many people intend to use their e-bikes so can drive progress. 
Some sort of max total weight or max battery power needs to be instituted however.

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