# i9 fr/dh vs dt swiss 440 fr/dh



## maxibrobro (May 17, 2009)

what do you think is better first of all, a 32 hole hub and rim or a 36 hole hub and rim. does it really make a difference in strenght. so with that said. go with a i9 32 dh hub laced to a mavic ex 823 rim or a dt swiss 36 hole hub laced to a ex 823 rim. does the 32 have less strenght then the 36 hole. hopefully you guys understand my question
thanks.
maxibrobro


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## brillantesdv (Oct 24, 2007)

32 hole setup by a good wheel builder should be plenty strong enough


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

brillantesdv said:


> 32 hole setup by a good wheel builder should be plenty strong enough


this is true
....but I still like the 36.......and I wouldn't get an I9........might want to try Hadleys and 823's been running those for 6 years plus


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## blackwater racing1013 (Nov 8, 2007)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> this is true
> ....but I still like the 36.......and I wouldn't get an I9........might want to try Hadleys and 823's been running those for 6 years plus


why not I9's?


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

blackwater racing1013 said:


> why not I9's?


weak......buddy's folded in a turn


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

Come to think of it, I own all three, LOL (340 tho, not the 440 DT)!

I9 
The good: bling factor and BEST engagement.
The bad: bearings are VERY average, very noisy and rolling resistance is PATHETIC!

DT 
The good: Reliable and relatively quiet. Smooth rolling.
The bad: Engagement? What's that??? If you ride skinnies and ladders... MOVE ALONG!

Hadley
The good: Reliable, quiet, very strong, roll and roll with amazingly low rolling resistance, excellent engagement (not quite as good as I9 but close enough).
The bad: Have to service a little more often than a normal hub if you wash your bike a lot.

For a change I'm with SMT all the way on this one.

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## specializedbeta18 (Jul 31, 2008)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> weak......buddy's folded in a turn


How did his hub fold? =P I thought rims folded lol.

The OP said I9 hub laced to 823s, not I9 rims 

And did your friend have the right spoke tensions and were they laced right? I know its silly to ask but a friend of mine has I9's laced to I9s and he beats this shiz out of them and they are still rolling tru.


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> weak......buddy's folded in a turn


If they folded ina turn, they weren't tensioned properly. End of story. Hard to blame a product that isn't upkept properly.


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## spxoo (Apr 26, 2007)

at one point i9 was using their own spokes threaded into the hub. I would certainly avoid that setup.

the 440 hubs are incredibly easy to service.


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

I9s roll great but they take a lot of maintenence. I had to change the front bearings and rebuild the rear hub after 3 months of riding in WET/WINTER conditions. I do love the wheels though.


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## mullet dew (Jun 4, 2008)

spxoo said:


> at one point i9 was using their own spokes threaded into the hub. I would certainly avoid that setup.
> 
> the 440 hubs are incredibly easy to service.


Their wheelsets come with the AL spokes threaded into the hubs, they also sell traditional j bend spoke hubs.


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## maxibrobro (May 17, 2009)

i break sh%t, ride hard, are the i9s strong enough ever with 32 hole. i weigh 220


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

maxibrobro said:


> i break sh%t, ride hard, are the i9s strong enough ever with 32 hole. i weigh 220


210 lbs-ish here. I've had two sets of I9's with the aluminum spokes (sold one pair though) and have had really positive experiences with them both. They really are noticeably stiffer than a good set of J-spoke wheels and noticeably lighter than a similar wheel with J-spokes. They are more sensitive to rocks getting kicked into the spokes and uneven spoke tension. But just like every design out there, there are strengths and weaknesses. You just need to choose where your priorities are (light weight and fast engagement or durability and non proprietary) and that should make your decision pretty clear.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

specializedbeta18 said:


> How did his hub fold? =P I thought rims folded lol.
> 
> The OP said I9 hub laced to 823s, not I9 rims
> 
> And did your friend have the right spoke tensions and were they laced right? I know its silly to ask but a friend of mine has I9's laced to I9s and he beats this shiz out of them and they are still rolling tru.


strait tensioned from a factory worker......and spokes gave out.....evidently it is a common problem


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## 1soulrider (Jan 21, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> strait tensioned from a factory worker......and spokes gave out.....evidently it is a common problem


Here we go again......


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

1soulrider said:


> Here we go again......


whole post about it here and pinkbike and ride monkey had some stuff too


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## maxibrobro (May 17, 2009)

thanks nickle


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I have 2 pairs of I9 that have been holding up well (AM set for 3 years, FR set for 2 years) - my biggest issue with them is the factory bearings are (were) mediocre.

I weigh in at ~ 200lbs fully geared up (15lb pack)


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Of course their bearings suck. You're paying 1g for the technology. Not for proper execution.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> whole post about it here and pinkbike and ride monkey had some stuff too


gee willikers...if its on the internet it must be gospel, with no other facts worth noting :thumbsup: do you rely on wikepedia to understand all dem big werdz people are using on mtbr?


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Of course their bearings suck. You're paying 1g for the technology. Not for proper execution.


you suck


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

FoShizzle said:


> gee willikers...if its on the internet it must be gospel, with no other facts worth noting :thumbsup: do you rely on wikepedia to understand all dem big werdz people are using on mtbr?


]

fact is they broke at a point other rims are stronger.....their price is too high for this amount of flaws


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I think they likely have to use better bearings, as it's apparent they aren't using the best ones they can. Tony Ellsworth uses bearings in his wheels that have more balls and they also happen to be bigger balls.

As far as the spokes go, no one is bound to them. They work for some, but the criteria for others is not the same. For that, they have the classic. The only problem with the classics are is that they aren't light for the price.

DT will be doing 36 points soon, and it will likely be retrofittable star ratchets. Hadley and King are alternatives as well.

The nice thing about the DT system is that it's simple to work on (most in this class are anyhow), few moving parts, and when engaged, it's a solid locking of parts, nearly as if they were one.

Basically, here's what servicing the engagement mech would look like. I purposely didn't write any text because it's all self-explanatory. This is from my girlfriend's 240. I blended a light, slick automotive type grease with a small amount of a slick teflon-containing grease. No need to overdo it, either. Also make sure to get some grease in the labyrinth grooves for better sealing and water resistance. Conceptually, the Star Ratchet System is similar to King's concept. Execution is completely different.

The hubs are three years old, have thousands of miles and a half dozen countries on them. They still look pretty new inside. That's what one can expect. The last time I cleaned and serviced them, it was 2006, after about six months just to see what was up. The innards were still clean this time around.


































































Honestly, I9 is nice, there's that engagement point thing, but if I had to, it would be the DT, even at lower POE.


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## SmilMick (Apr 9, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> ]
> 
> fact is they broke at a point other rims are stronger.....their price is too high for this amount of flaws


What amount of flaws?

Are you trying to compare online reviews?

I got news for you....

Online reviews arent a good way to quantify failure/success ratios.


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## Pslide (Jul 3, 2006)

I've got I9s on the downhill bike and no problems. Monitoring spoke tension (with a tensiometer) is pretty important...loose spokes could lead to catastrophic results I imagine. They are a little bit fiddly to get the right bearing compression on the rear hub...there is an adjustment and too tight will lead to freehub drag, too loose will be just that. They are seriously light and very quick engagement, but also seem a bit, ummm, minimalist in their design...more like what you'd expect for a XC hubset than a DH hubset. I wouldn't recommend them to a 220 guy who breaks sh_t, not because of any bad experience, just because after living with them and fiddling with them, they don't give me the impression that they are overly robust.

In the end, wheelsets on DH bikes take a thrashing and need to be easily serviceable (i.e. spoke replacement). If I were to do it again, I would get a cheaper more conventional wheelset to beat the tar out of. Yeah, maybe DT swiss or Hadley.

By the way, 36 recommended for more lateral strength...but will not reduce dinks and eggs.


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

SmilMick said:


> Online reviews arent a good way to quantify failure/success ratios.


How DARE you!? Moderators, ARREST THIS MAN!

Next thing you are going to tell me is that MTBing blahgs aren't useful. I've got news for you, mine at least is entirely science-based


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## RadiotelemetrieMoskau (Mar 13, 2008)

I have to give the strongest praise to DT Swiss for their 440 Hubs.
I own the Hügi FR, which is the same Hub but made by Hügi before they were bought by DT Swiss. The Hub is running in Downhillbikes around 2000!!!!

The Front Hub still has the original bearings ans is running fine, the rear hub cracked after 8 years and was replaced by DT Swiss ... ..I got new bearings, new hub body and new ratchet vor free, the only thing left from my old hub was the part where you mount the cassette on.

The hub is holding up fine since the rebuild, I can only recommend them in the strongest manner. Only disadvantage is the slow engagement. 

about me:
I weight in at about 100kg, the weight of the whole system (me, ride, gear) ist about 125kg. I ride quite hard and my riding skills are... ...well, there are better riders around


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

RadiotelemetrieMoskau said:


> Only disadvantage is the slow engagement.


FYI - press release from DT Swiss

36 step star ratchet upgrade kit
• 36 instead of 18 steps
• Engagement angle 10 instead of 20 degrees
• Machined out ratchets, minus 10 grams per set
• Offered as a set of two ratchets
• Compatible to : 190 ceramic, 240s, 440 freeride hubs
RR, XR, EX, FR wheels

MSRP = $34.


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## Err (Mar 21, 2005)

These threads are awfully boring but I'll bite...

I maintain several sets of I9's and a set of Kings. I've owed many King, Hadley, and Ringle hubs over the years and laced far to many wheel sets to recall. Enough with the qualifications, really I'm just a hack who loves to ride.

So, I9's, geeze I seen a lot of improperly maintained I9's. You must use a tensiometer to get the aluminum spokes tensioned properly. If you don't, you'll have a much greater than 20% variance in spoke tension (I like to get mine closer to 10%) and that will just cause headaches. Out of tension and out of true and eventually failure. Repeat.

Fact is, most folks can't even get steel spokes anywhere near 20% variance in spoke tension even with their "calibrated" hands. If I had a nickle for every time I threw a newly built wheel on my stand and checked it to find several spokes out by 50% or more, well, I'd probably have 50 cents, but the point is...

And that's how I9's fail, sucky mechanics, doing what they do best, sucking.

Oh, the bearings, yeah, not going to defend. But the solution is to open them up right away and check the grease pack. I find that Enduro is inconsistent and often ships bearings without enough grease in them. Doesn't take long for a half-dry bearing to bite the dust in wet weather.

Kings, heh, just run forever. Sometimes I spit on them or kick 'em for good measure. I'd run them more often but they're boring, they just always work. Wish I could get a strait pull aluminum spoke version of a King hub.


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> Basically, here's what servicing the engagement mech would look like............


brilliant, thanks for posting this - you might well have saved me alot of money at my LBS - i've 3 hubs to upgrade when the new star ratchet upgrade kits are available (2x240's 1x190s)


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## DeanH (Jan 9, 2008)

Simple, get the DT Swiss ones. reliable, and you dont have to monitor them constantlt like the i9s seem to require. 

Around here, everyone uses DTs or hadleys, for the simple reason they work are easy to selfservice, and can take a serious beating


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## mullet dew (Jun 4, 2008)

FoShizzle said:


> FYI - press release from DT Swiss
> 
> 36 step star ratchet upgrade kit
> • 36 instead of 18 steps
> ...


No love for the 340?


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

mullet dew said:


> No love for the 340?


Part no HWDXXX00N2884S. I'm getting one ASAP!!!

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## Ecogeek (Aug 30, 2009)

*Grease*

Thanks OP.
For those doing this mod - which I recommend. SUPER easy and a dramatic improvement in performance. Esp for technical stuff.

This should explain why you want grease w certain properties in key places.

Before that, you prob have a little nice DT grease already without knowing it.
If you have not prev serviced the freehub, there will prob be enough fresh original DT grease completely clean, on the INSIDE surface of the original star ratchets.

I mean around the circumference of the hole in the centre of each ratchet.

Just run your clean pinky finger around the inside of each of the old ratchets, and put that clean original grease on the ratchet teeth of the new ones and wipe the rest on their inner circumference.

Use your thinned syn grease for the other surfaces and to make up any deficiency in quantity.Thinning w synthetic motor oil like Mobil 1 seems to work well.
Buy a jug bigger than you need next oil change and have the mech give you what's left in the jug.

NOTE.
You do not want sticky grease on the inner or outside surfaces either. 
The springs have to be able to slide these ratchets together quickly when you crank.
They have to slide quickly enough to fully engage before the leading edges meet.
Viscous grease will have them slide together more slowly (smoothly, but too slowly) under the relatively weak pressure of the original springs.
If you use viscous grease, then when you crank, the spring will not slide the ratchets together fast enough for the teeth to fully engage each other before the leading edges meet.
Crunch!

Equally, this could be solved by using stronger springs. But that in turn will likely make them louder. And you would have to be pretty sharp to find the right springs versus just using the old ones and appropriate grease.
I guess you could deliberately plastically deform your existing springs by stretching them to pos offer more pressure. But I would not recommend it unless you are pretty confident and controlled.
Maybe DT should have supplied stronger springs w these ratchets anyway just to avoid any problems. And/or some grease.

Using thick too much grease on the outer or inner circumference will lead to exactly the problem that some have reported - chipped ratchet teeth as you will be applying power with the teeth only partially engaged cos the ratchets slide together too slowly when you give a sudden pop w the cranks.

So make sure they can slide freely. Better to use thick oil than v viscous grease. Just service regularly and only use fully syn so it doesn't mess w the rubber seals.

Obviously leaving even a little grit inside, or some getting in through the seal w water. could also keep the ratchet teeth partially apart by getting between them. Or could cause the ratchets not to slide, also keeping them partially or completely apart...
So make sure there is no grit. 
Don't get any in there when cleaning your seals. And the advice in the thread about greasing the seals to prevent any getting in later is also v good. 
For seals, the choice of grease is up to you.
I use thick enough to stay in there, but as thin as it can be to achieve that.
Finish Line Teflon Syn is good for many jobs when mixed w syn oil as/when nec.

Hope this helps people avoid the problem w chipped teeth that has been reported in at least one other thread.
Enjoy easy, cheap, excellent upgrade!


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## Stugotz (Dec 14, 2011)

Tagged for future reference. I will be doing this conversion at some point after I receive my new wheels which are built on 240's.



Jerk_Chicken said:


> I think they likely have to use better bearings, as it's apparent they aren't using the best ones they can. Tony Ellsworth uses bearings in his wheels that have more balls and they also happen to be bigger balls.
> 
> As far as the spokes go, no one is bound to them. They work for some, but the criteria for others is not the same. For that, they have the classic. The only problem with the classics are is that they aren't light for the price.
> 
> ...


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