# Almost one year in...I might make an Ebike my ONLY bike.



## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Next year I'll have been riding and racing mountain bikes for 30 years...and I find myself somewhat surprised that I've come to the conclusion that I think I'm fine with having an ebike as my only bike. 

I've been riding my ebike for just over 8 months and have found myself choosing the ebike over my standard bike more and more. In fact, I think if I had to choose one bike for the rest of my life, I've decided it's going to be an E bike. I'm on one right now that I consider bulky. If I can find an ebike that feels nimble and is relatively light, I've decided I will probably spend the money and go "all in" on ebikes. 

They're just fun. I cannot find their downside...and I'm looking at them through the lense of a 30 year MTB'er. The only downside I see at the moment is fighting the online hostility from people who don't know what they are or don't care because they're into their own thing.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Passing at high speed differential is the biggest issue that opposers have, enabled by motors. They rationalize that since trail rules "can't be enforced", that ebikes should be banned. Surprised that there's not more specific etiquette out there regarding passing (yield rule is too ambiguous).

I rationalized that an aluminum AM ebike would have more value over a high end bike with carbon weight weenie everything. Can opt for lower cost durable parts that work reliably instead of compromising for the sake of weight savings. Could offer a similar experience of acceleration and much faster climbing, but offer more stability for the technical descents. Nothing stopping you from getting in an intense workout either.

I can't give up a regular bike as long as ebikes are banned, but having an ebike around greatly discourages me from buying any expensive weight weenie stuff. When I ride with my buddies, I use the motor to ride to the trailhead 14 miles, then ride with them for another 10 miles or so without the motor, and use the motor for the ride back home and make a shopping stop on the way. I'd be ebike all the way if it weren't for the bans.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Passing at high speed? Sorry, that makes no sense. I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike. If anything I'm slowed, especially on technical descents, because the bike is cumbersome. Uphill I'm marginally faster to the top of something, usually only non technical smooth long climbs but only because I don't have to let off as early....not because i'm going faster overall. Ebikes aren't going to bust Strava segments unless you were slow to begin with, and I don't think they'll ever bust a top notch rider on a light weight standard bike. Maybe a top notch rider on a top notch ebike. But that said, that idea, or mindset still makes no sense. Having an ebike makes you pass people going too fast? An ebike doesn't make you more or less trail etiquette dysfunctional. What?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> When I ride with my buddies, I use the motor to ride to the trailhead 14 miles, then ride with them for another 10 miles or so without the motor, and use the motor for the ride back home and make a shopping stop on the way. I'd be ebike all the way if it weren't for the bans.


You are riding an ebike all the way, if a trail doesn't allow them then technically you're breaking the rules whether the motor is running or not.

There isn't a general ban on ebikes, they're just not allowed in certain places. Yet.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

I just got back on a 3 week trip around the United States by Van. I rode quite a few MTB meccas and loads of trails and not one person said a word nor did I have any issues or problems. I don't think most people even knew I was on an ebike. I'm finding the friction seems to only be the blustery keyboard warriors yelling about things they don't understand, making things up in their own minds.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike. If anything I'm slowed, especially on technical descents, because the bike is cumbersome.


If that's the case why do you prefer the electric bike? Slower and more cumbersome doesn't sound so appealing to me.

I'm not insinuating anything or trying to be snarky, just genuinely curious.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

[Insert popcorn meme here]


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> If that's the case why do you prefer the electric bike? Slower and more cumbersome doesn't sound so appealing to me.
> 
> I'm not insinuating anything or trying to be snarky, just genuinely curious.


Good question. Even slower and more cumbersome on technical descents, it's still a lot of fun, I learned I like what an ebike is about, what it does for me, and I have a fix for the cumbersome part. Which leads me to my next step which I mentioned here...having an ebike as my only bike but I'm getting a really nice one. I love being able to show up to any trail and know I can just enjoy the ride no matter what it throws at me. If I'm tired, if I haven't trained 20 hours a week for months, if my knees are hurting, doesn't matter. I arrive and I can just enjoy riding. And even if I am in top form...its just that much better. These aren't bikes for the infirm or the lazy or someone who is too old to ride hard anymore...but I see that being perpetuated a lot, even by people who like the idea of them. These are bikes for people who love to ride. And because I like the overall aspect of the bike, I have a plan for the cumbersome part. My bike is cumbersome because I have a fairly heavy Haibike. It also has a more lax geometry, it's not really a nimble cross country bike, and I ride predominantly cross country. I bought it because, while expensive, it still wasn't as expensive as most ebikes. I didn't know if I'd like them or not, so why shell out 10k. Now that I've learned what I love about the bike and what I don't like ( the cumbersome weight and handling on my particular ebike) there are bikes that are a lot better in the handling department with lighter weight, shorter stays, more nimble, flickable...really good bikes, and that's what I plan on buying. I rode 6,000 miles year before last on my standard MTB. I'm a competitive person. I used to love going out on training rides with guys and busting someones ass..it's why I used to love racing too but I've also been riding and racing since 1989. And while these aren't the "handicapped infirm only" bikes that some people seem to think they're suited for, I won't lie and say that riding and racing for 30 years takes it's toll and for me personally taking some of the load off does factor in. And even riding 6,000 miles there would still be days and trails and young buddies where I'd show up and think oh god, this is is going to suck. That never happens on the ebike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> And even riding 6,000 miles there would still be days and trails and young buddies where I'd show up and think oh god, this is is going to suck. That never happens on the ebike.


Sounds like maybe you were just riding too much and/or taking it too seriously. After more than 30 years, thousands of rides and a few races I've never once thought "oh god, this is going to suck" before a ride. Pretty much the opposite.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Then don't buy an ebike? Everybody has their circumstances and what works for them. About a decade ago I decided I no longer wished to ride hard tails. Would you suggest I took MTBing too seriously if I wanted the added benefit and control of dual suspension, and to just back off a bit and be happy again? I move on and evolve as to what suits me and what I feel is great, and fun. I've decided I like e bikes enough that as long as I can find a great one I'd be willing to go exclusively E bike. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything, I feel as though an ebike take a mountain bike and makes it better. Added value. Just like I felt when I began riding full suspension.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> Then don't buy an ebike? Everybody has their circumstances and what works for them.


Of course, I think maybe you misinterpreted me. I agree it's a personal choice.

You said you weren't enjoying riding because your knees were hurting and you were going on hammerfests with younger riders. 20 hours a week is pro cyclists territory and when riding is your job it can definitely suck a lot of the fun out of riding. I was only thinking that it seems like an electric alternative could be to just back off the wattage on a regular bicycle ride. It's amazing to me how easy and playful a ride can be when I go at an easy pace compared to my regular one.

Again, not questioning your choices but just wondering out loud.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Of course, I think maybe you misinterpreted me. I agree it's a personal choice.
> 
> You said you weren't enjoying riding because your knees were hurting and you were going on hammerfests with younger riders. 20 hours a week is pro cyclists territory and when riding is your job it can definitely suck a lot of the fun out of riding. I was only thinking that it seems like an electric alternative could be to just back off the wattage on a regular bicycle ride. It's amazing to me how easy and playful a ride can be when I go at an easy pace compared to my regular one.
> 
> Again, not questioning your choices but just wondering out loud.


I have other circumstances that put me in a position of needing to be on on the bike often, sometimes twice a day. I do go out on slow deliberate rides too because I think those are as important, or more important for handling sake as fast rides. Want to find out if you're a good rider? Go ride with slow people. Speed makes everything easier.

But I'd ask. Why do I need an ebike alternative? Why is that important to you? Why would I compromise if I don't have to? An ebike allows me to not compromise anything. I can ride fast, or medium or slow and everything in between on any day, under any circumstances. With an ebike I have it all.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> But I'd ask. Why do I need an ebike alternative? Why is that important to you?


It's not important to me, I was just killing time and asking a question. Apologies. If you don't want any responses one good way to accomplish that is to not post a thread.

Isn't slower and more cumbersome on downhills kind of a compromise though?


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I am not against eBikes at all, quite the contrary. I was already not interested in one for myself, but now that I watch a friend of mine struggle on some technical trails that he can blast down on his regular bike, it seems quite the incentive NOT to ride one. I understand his reasons for doing so.

But I guess go for whichever bike lets you have the most fun. That's the reason I ride my enduro instead of my XC bike (even though I race XC, but not enduro).


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's not important to me, I was just killing time and asking a question. Apologies. If you don't want any responses one good way to accomplish that is to not post a thread.
> 
> Isn't slower and more cumbersome on downhills kind of a compromise though?


Evidently you're not reading my posts or you're trolling. I mentioned in my very first post that my CURRENT bicycle is cumbersome and I'm looking to move to a better, more nimble non cumbersome ebike, and that will be my new single bike quiver.

I answered that again for you, in great detail, in my next post when, having missed my first post, you asked me why I would want an ebike if it's cumbersome.

And now, a third time, you're bringing up the cumbersome aspect. Third time is a charm?

If it's not important to you, why do you keep asking the question over and over and offering reasons why an ebike isn't necessary. Again, I don't post here enough to know if you're being sincere but your posts seem oddly passive aggressive and now that you keep going back to the same question over and over and over while saying you don't care. I think I answered my own question.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> I am not against eBikes at all, quite the contrary. I was already not interested in one for myself, but now that I watch a friend of mine struggle on some technical trails that he can blast down on his regular bike, it seems quite the incentive NOT to ride one. I understand his reasons for doing so.
> 
> But I guess go for whichever bike lets you have the most fun. That's the reason I ride my enduro instead of my XC bike (even though I race XC, but not enduro).


There's definitely a different riding style involved for some things. You can't ratchet the pedals, and with the heavy ones, like Haibike, you really need constant pedaling in certain places where normally you'd keep your cranks level to avoid pedal strikes... That has effected how I negotiate big rock gardens etc, but I've adapted my style. I think a lot of that will change with the new crop of bikes coming out. My Habike isn't a cross country bike, the geometry just isn't there. I also think there's a lot of ebikes that don't have suspension set up properly for their weight etc. The great news is that now you Rocky Mountain, Scott, Pivot, LaPierre, etc coming out with very capable rigs, good geometry, chainstays are shortening, the weight is coming down, and they're really getting good.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> I am not against eBikes at all, quite the contrary. I was already not interested in one for myself, but now that I watch a friend of mine struggle on some technical trails that he can blast down on his regular bike, it seems quite the incentive NOT to ride one. I understand his reasons for doing so.
> 
> But I guess go for whichever bike lets you have the most fun. That's the reason I ride my enduro instead of my XC bike (even though I race XC, but not enduro).


What e bike does your friend have?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> Again, I don't post here enough to know if you're being sincere but your posts seem oddly passive aggressive and now that you keep going back to the same question over and over and over while saying you don't care. I think I answered my own question.


Not sure how you interpreted anything I wrote as aggressive but I'm starting to feel that way now, grrrrr! Just kidding  I'm a gonna go for a bicycle ride now.

And since you're counting I only asked about the cumbersome handling twice, not three times, and both times for different reasons.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Motobecane HALe


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

Double Butted said:


> What e bike does your friend have?


I don't think you are being honest about the ebike. I just got one this week and I passed pros on the climbs and had to wait for them, before they waited 10 minutes at the top for me. That is not marginally faster, it is 3 times faster.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Many of the ebikes handle poorly because they haven’t sorted out the different way in which they must be ridden, ie continous pedaling vs ratcheting when riding though tech sections. I also feel like gearing tends to be too tall, which makes the drive systems engage abruptly.

I made my wife’s Levo more rider friendly by reducing crank length from 170mm to 150mm and reducing the chainring to 30t. These changes allowed for improved pedal clearance and more tractability.

Though I was/am strongly against throttles, I think a throttle that only operates under pedal assist would greatly improve response and usability. The reality of muscle vs motor is that no e-system will ever anticipate rider needs as well as the rider.

As an aside, when going downhill; not pedaling for power, an ebike is not slower than a non ebike, though the added weight and high cog can worsen handling.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> You are riding an ebike all the way, if a trail doesn't allow them then technically you're breaking the rules whether the motor is running or not.
> 
> There isn't a general ban on ebikes, they're just not allowed in certain places. Yet.


What's with the generalized lecture? Counter lecture: your reading comprehension might improve if you consider the context.

Correct comprehension: I implied that I prefer ebikes, but am forced to have a regular bike for the many trails that ban them. When I do visit an ebike legal trail, _with riding buddies_, I ride to the trailhead 14 miles rather than shuttle it with a car, ride without the motor on the trails due to riding with buddies (it simply outpaces them), using the motor to go back home instead of shuttling the bike by car. The prior paragraph highlighted that there's nothing stopping you from getting exercise intensity. I didn't use ebike as a verb in the last line--it's means pro-ebike, repeating the point made in the topic sentence of the paragraph, which literally states that I only have reg bikes due to ebike bans.

It's disrespectful to quote me out of context and speak about being unethical. Not sure how else to treat it but personal, considering there was only 2 people participating in the thread so far besides you. If you want to lecture future readers, don't do based on a misunderstanding at my expense.



leeboh said:


> That not how it works. Shutting off the motor still results with a motorized vehicle on the trail.


 So you focus your reply on a fraction of 1 sentence, ignoring the topic sentence of the paragraph? I'll admit that this isn't also a reading comprehension failure if many normal people get it wrong. Hint: I shut the motor off because I'm riding with buddies, not because the trail bans ebikes. I have my regular bike shuttled to trails where ebikes are banned. Self-shuttling and riding without a motor = less lazy, more workout.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Varaxis said:


> Passing at high speed differential is the biggest issue that opposers have, enabled by motors. They rationalize that since trail rules "can't be enforced", that ebikes should be banned. Surprised that there's not more specific etiquette out there regarding passing (yield rule is too ambiguous).
> 
> I rationalized that an aluminum AM ebike would have more value over a high end bike with carbon weight weenie everything. Can opt for lower cost durable parts that work reliably instead of compromising for the sake of weight savings. Could offer a similar experience of acceleration and much faster climbing, but offer more stability for the technical descents. Nothing stopping you from getting in an intense workout either.
> 
> I can't give up a regular bike as long as ebikes are banned, but having an ebike around greatly discourages me from buying any expensive weight weenie stuff. When I ride with my buddies, I use the motor to ride to the trailhead 14 miles, then ride with them for another 10 miles or so without the motor, and use the motor for the ride back home and make a shopping stop on the way. I'd be ebike all the way if it weren't for the bans.


 That not how it works. Shutting off the motor still results with a motorized vehicle on the trail.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Double Butted said:


> Passing at high speed? Sorry, that makes no sense. I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike. If anything I'm slowed, especially on technical descents, because the bike is cumbersome. Uphill I'm marginally faster to the top of something, usually only non technical smooth long climbs but only because I don't have to let off as early....not because i'm going faster overall. Ebikes aren't going to bust Strava segments unless you were slow to begin with, and I don't think they'll ever bust a top notch rider on a light weight standard bike. Maybe a top notch rider on a top notch ebike. But that said, that idea, or mindset still makes no sense. Having an ebike makes you pass people going too fast? An ebike doesn't make you more or less trail etiquette dysfunctional. What?


 E bikes aren't faster? Hmmm, beg to differ. Make and model used? I did a demo on a Haibike 500 watt hub motor thing. 25 + mph in 10 pedal strokes on a dirt road, seem fast to me. Way fast. IMHO.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Many of the ebikes handle poorly because they haven't sorted out the different way in which they must be ridden, ie continous pedaling vs ratcheting when riding though tech sections. I also feel like gearing tends to be too tall, which makes the drive systems engage abruptly.
> 
> I made my wife's Levo more rider friendly by reducing crank length from 170mm to 150mm and reducing the chainring to 30t. These changes allowed for improved pedal clearance and more tractability.
> 
> ...


Shorter cranks is my next goal. I almost fell over backwards trying to climb onto a boulder that's about 4' tall, with an almost vertical face, since I was afraid of pedaling up after I got my front tire hooked over the top. I can make it on my normal bikes, but pedal strikes are a bane on this one, so I'm careful on the rocks I typically love rolling. Was kind of scary ejecting off a bike like that, esp in the dark. Waiting for those Shimano 165mm cranks that fit the HT2 interface to be available aftermarket.

The flex in the chassis is another problem. I tried to rail a turn a bit sharply to the right and my rear wheel locked up--it was my rear derailleur getting stuck in the spokes, while I was feathering the rear brake. I was in the 3rd to largest cog, from climbing up the hill prior. I was 2nd in the descend chain gang, and looked to keep up with the fastest since I was feeling a bit more confident on the bike. Just some context to show just how much it had to flex. Rode the rest of the way with only minor shifting issues that I used the barrel adjuster to compensate for. RD hanger was tested after I got back and it is literally the straightest one out of all my bikes (I've had to straighten the others, and they're still not perfect).

The bike technically has a throttle: walk-assist mode. Wouldn't be surprised if someone discovered how to hack that to "walk-assist" at a faster speed. With all the pedal strikes I get, especially on some of the moto trails I ride, I have to admit that it comes up in my mind as a solution when I find myself dismounting to walk. Pushing a 48+ lb beast is a workout that tests the traction of my shoes.

Hard to generalize about DH speed. In my case, it's a cheap bike. It's not fair being compared to well-received bikes like the SB5 or E29. Just not interested too much in putting money into the ebike, and looking to push fitness and skills to bring myself back up to a comparable descending level. Will start closing the gap once I get more daylight hour experience on the ebike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> What's with the generalized lecture? Counter lecture: your reading comprehension might improve if you consider the context.
> 
> Correct comprehension: I implied that I prefer ebikes, but am forced to have a regular bike for the many trails that ban them. When I do visit an ebike legal trail, _with riding buddies_, I ride to the trailhead 14 miles rather than shuttle it with a car, ride without the motor on the trails due to riding with buddies (it simply outpaces them), using the motor to go back home instead of shuttling the bike by car. The prior paragraph highlighted that there's nothing stopping you from getting exercise intensity. I didn't use ebike as a verb in the last line--it's means pro-ebike, repeating the point made in the topic sentence of the paragraph, which literally states that I only have reg bikes due to ebike bans.
> 
> ...


Well gee now that I re-read your op I see you made that fact absolutely clear, how clumsy of me to miss it. Sorry I burdened you with my 1 sentence lecture and apologies for disrespecting and slanderizing your good name.



Varaxis said:


> I can't give up a regular bike as long as ebikes are banned, but having an ebike around greatly discourages me from buying any expensive weight weenie stuff. When I ride with my buddies, I use the motor to ride to the trailhead 14 miles, then ride with them for another 10 miles or so without the motor, and use the motor for the ride back home and make a shopping stop on the way. I'd be ebike all the way if it weren't for the bans.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

leeboh said:


> E bikes aren't faster? Hmmm, beg to differ. Make and model used? I did a demo on a Haibike 500 watt hub motor thing. 25 + mph in 10 pedal strokes on a dirt road, seem fast to me. Way fast. IMHO.


Good story. Before I comment, I'd ask you what model you were on. My Haibike, and to my knowledge, ALL Haibike MTB's is/are governed and the assist stops assisting at just over 19mph. I want to say 19.3 and when you get there, because of the weight of the bike, it's dramatic when you lose assist.

I'm curious what model you were on that rocketed you to 25+ mph in 10 pedal strokes.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Double Butted said:


> Good story. Before I comment, I'd ask you what model you were on. My Haibike, and to my knowledge, ALL Haibike MTB's is/are governed and the assist stops assisting at just over 19mph. I want to say 19.3 and when you get there, because of the weight of the bike, it's dramatic when you lose assist.
> 
> I'm curious what model you were on that rocketed you to 25+ mph in 10 pedal strokes.


I can top that. 30+ mph on a downsloped dirt road in 10 pedal strokes. Mine drops to under 25% of eco mode at 18.2 MPH. My GPS tells me that I average 16.9 MPH when riding on that limit on the road over 10+ miles, considering the cut-off. Doesn't stop me from going up to 38 mph. It's actually kind of cool how such speed locks you in from steering by the handlebar (I don't have real motorcycle riding experience).

My line about a high speed differential relates to people's tolerance for sharing a path with faster traffic. One guy walking 3 MPH vs one guy running 10 MPH... there's quite a speed differential, with 1 guy going over 3x the speed. The walker is probably expecting joggers who run 7 MPH, and is startled by the 10 MPH runner on his route, looking to label them as something, perhaps Mr. Triathlete based on their gear. One guy running 12 MPH vs one guy sprinting 24 MPH is quite a speed differential. The guy running 12 MPH probably thinks his pacing for his 5k is pretty solid, but thinks this guy trying to be Michael Johnson running a 400m is a clown, since he can't keep up such a pace for long, and is throwing the 12 MPH pace/rhythm off, perhaps simply passing for attention. If I pass by kids on my hardtail, they'd be like, "what the... you training for the Olympics?" That'd be my new nickname if I pass by again. It's all about expectations, tolerance, and judgment. Human vices... people tend to play the blame game when they are bothered (e.g. disappointment/frustration when expectations aren't met), looking for a scapegoat to be intolerant against, and weigh all the different factors (including imagined ones, perhaps based off of logical fallacies) to justify their judgment.

On the trail: one guy's going 10 MPH up a slight incline. The 10 MPH rider would typically be confident that no one can catch them, considering no one was nearby when they started it. Not too hard for an average guy to catch them with a motor assisting, and startle the F out of 'em while passing at their own discretion. Need to have some etiquette for passing, since this is going to be a thing with ebikes around. It's not too unlike the 3' foot for cars-- not so bad when they give you space, unless they're going faster than expected. Hopefully, there shouldn't be any catches to the rule, besides not widening the trail. As someone looking to pass, it would be like accelerating at a yellow traffic light to avoid a wait, if I see a passing opportunity and decide to take it before it narrows, which can draw mixed reactions from others.

I tried to see how a friend would react to me passing like in the above scenario, after he peeled away from the group on a climb, only calling out the pass when I was already on his back wheel, tastefully calling out "motor!" He didn't like it, confirming that it startled him. I also tried to heckle him on a downhill, riding his back wheel, saying he can bank harder than that, like an unweighted B-52, being a hotshot pilot (we were talking about a B-52 crashing at an airshow earlier). Didn't get to confirm his reaction on it, but he left me behind once it became pedally. Got me to say, "don't make me turn on the motor" though (I didn't, since I wanted a workout). He seemingly found his calm on the climb back up. xD


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## simbot (May 29, 2007)

A couple of comments to add. I have a Giant Full E+1, it handles very similarly to my Giant Reign on descents. The eBike is heavier , so it doesn't jump quite as well, and I can feel the weight on very steep an/or rocky descents, it requires more breaking power to stop, but otherwise they feel very similar. I'm happy to ride the eBike anywhere I ride the Reign, and I ride some pretty steep technical stuff. 

As far as climbing goes, it is fast, I could put up KOM times at or near the top of the list, when I am solidly mid pack on a non-eBike. However I have no interest in KOM rankings, I don't want to pollute the rankings of those who care about such things and have truly earned it, so I don't.

That said, I don't know why anyone would care if I passed them on a climb? It's not as if I'm roosting by them, it's more like they are climbing at 4mph, and I pass them at 6mph. And I can maintain that pace for a long time. Unless they are egomaniacs why should they care? it's not a race, I'm not competing with people who I encounter on the trail. As long as we are both respectful to each other it should all be good right? The fact that I have a weak motor helping me should be no ones concern.

I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, I'm just doing my thing, trying to have some fun.


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## Djg24 (Jul 7, 2011)

I've ridden for about 18 years and have a stable of about 4 super bikes (full carbon, high performance, 7k plus) but actually love the idea of buying an e bike. 

My reason is that I just love to ride. Some days I'm tired, and climbing up to the top takes away some of the enjoyment of going down. You know, worn out, can't push and rail turns as hard on the way down. I like the idea of an e bike to just go out and enjoy riding. You don't always need to wear yourself out to have fun!

The only reason I haven't gone out and purchased my first e bike is that around me, there is literally nowhere that has access to trails for e bikes.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

simbot said:


> A couple of comments to add. I have a Giant Full E+1, it handles very similarly to my Giant Reign on descents. The eBike is heavier , so it doesn't jump quite as well, and I can feel the weight on very steep an/or rocky descents, it requires more breaking power to stop, but otherwise they feel very similar. I'm happy to ride the eBike anywhere I ride the Reign, and I ride some pretty steep technical stuff.
> 
> As far as climbing goes, it is fast, I could put up KOM times at or near the top of the list, when I am solidly mid pack on a non-eBike. However I have no interest in KOM rankings, I don't want to pollute the rankings of those who care about such things and have truly earned it, so I don't.
> 
> ...


I agree with you whole heartedly. I think it's important to keep noting because the inference seems to be that e bikes are so shockingly fast, they simply fly, willy nilly, like a motorcycle, up hills knocking guys riding using only their legs like real men do and small children and pregnant women out of the way. That's just NOT the case. They're able to grind a solid wattage without interruption and in that way they're faster. Not that they're motorcycles roosting up trails. That's simply ridiculous and a completely falsehood but one that keeps getting perpetuated.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Double Butted said:


> I've been riding my ebike for just over 8 months and have found myself choosing the ebike over my standard bike more and more.


Great. Ride your e-mtb legally and have fun. :thumbsup:


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Double Butted said:


> I just got back on a 3 week trip around the United States by Van. I rode quite a few MTB meccas and loads of trails and not one person said a word nor did I have any issues or problems. I don't think most people even knew I was on an ebike. I'm finding the friction seems to only be the blustery keyboard warriors yelling about things they don't understand, making things up in their own minds.


Were all the trails e-MTB legal? If so you were out doing something authorized on a trail. That tends to not get people upset. The trails were likely then ones that would provide few negative user group encounters.

If you were poaching then you got lucky not having a bad interaction. That's not something you should be posting about in this forum.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> I can top that. 30+ mph on a downsloped dirt road in 10 pedal strokes. Mine drops to under 25% of eco mode at 18.2 MPH. My GPS tells me that I average 16.9 MPH when riding on that limit on the road over 10+ miles, considering the cut-off. Doesn't stop me from going up to 38 mph. It's actually kind of cool how such speed locks you in from steering by the handlebar (I don't have real motorcycle riding experience).
> 
> My line about a high speed differential relates to people's tolerance for sharing a path with faster traffic. One guy walking 3 MPH vs one guy running 10 MPH... there's quite a speed differential, with 1 guy going over 3x the speed. The walker is probably expecting joggers who run 7 MPH, and is startled by the 10 MPH runner on his route, looking to label them as something, perhaps Mr. Triathlete based on their gear. One guy running 12 MPH vs one guy sprinting 24 MPH is quite a speed differential. The guy running 12 MPH probably thinks his pacing for his 5k is pretty solid, but thinks this guy trying to be Michael Johnson running a 400m is a clown, since he can't keep up such a pace for long, and is throwing the 12 MPH pace/rhythm off, perhaps simply passing for attention. If I pass by kids on my hardtail, they'd be like, "what the... you training for the Olympics?" That'd be my new nickname if I pass by again. It's all about expectations, tolerance, and judgment. Human vices... people tend to play the blame game when they are bothered (e.g. disappointment/frustration when expectations aren't met), looking for a scapegoat to be intolerant against, and weigh all the different factors (including imagined ones, perhaps based off of logical fallacies) to justify their judgment.
> 
> ...


Not sure what to say to you, especially given your lovely reputation slam earlier today. What e bike do you have exactly?

I just don't get your scenarios. They seem "out there" to me. Riding up on friends to test theories, "tastefully calling out "Motor" before executing the pass..just sounds sort of corny to me. And what does it have to do with e bikes anyway? I've ridden up and tried to pass a lot of people who were dicks and didn't like me passing...and that's on a regular bike. Who wouldn't be irritated if someone rode up on their butt and called out "motor". How douchey is that? That's like riding up on someone yelling out "Strava". If someone faster is coming up on me, if I can, I get out of the way, but if someone came up on me and yelled out "motor" or "strava" they could get stuffed. I think anyone would think that. Ebike or no ebike.

I do not think that ebikes are passing people causing problems. You're saying that's the biggest problem, is that your anecdotal evidence? Based on what? Your "test" of riding up someones wheel on a climb and calling out "motor"? I don't think e bikes are so much faster than standard fast people on standard bikes that they're shocking or scaring people to death when passing anywhere.

As for my reply to the person claiming they rode a Haibike once and within 10 pedal strokes had surpassed 25+mph. I continue to call BS. These bikes are governed to 20 and start cutting out just over 19. His assertion being that the MOTOR took him up to 25+mph. That's simply not true because these bikes don't do that. And if you're an ebike rider, I would think that you know that so I'm not sure what your angle is.

As for you saying you believe him because you can "top that". Well who can't go fast going downhill? I've done almost 50mph going downhill on a regular bike. His claim was a Haibike rocketed to 25+ mph in 10 pedal strokes on motor assist. Yes, of course if he meant while riding down a 20% incline...well yeah...duh. But what bike doesn't.

And furthermore, does it matter that an ebike can accelerate fast? So can a good rider. Some of my crew are former BMX'ers, ever seen them take off in a sprint? I mean, again, it's all just BS smoke and mirrors and stupid arguments here....so what if an ebike gets up to speed fast? The inference being that someone is going to be on the trail and start pedaling and run everyone over?

I don't find that ebikes are much different than standard bikes in any form or fashion and all these speed arguments are just nonsense. And, what boggles my mind are you have industry icons like Joe Murray, Troy Lee, Gary Fisher, all saying the same thing and it's still being drowned out by people who are literally making scenarios up in their mind based on what they THINK ebikes are.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Djg24 said:


> I've ridden for about 18 years and have a stable of about 4 super bikes (full carbon, high performance, 7k plus) but actually love the idea of buying an e bike.
> 
> My reason is that I just love to ride. Some days I'm tired, and climbing up to the top takes away some of the enjoyment of going down. You know, worn out, can't push and rail turns as hard on the way down. I like the idea of an e bike to just go out and enjoy riding. You don't always need to wear yourself out to have fun!
> 
> The only reason I haven't gone out and purchased my first e bike is that around me, there is literally nowhere that has access to trails for e bikes.


Sounds very much like me. Having purchased one and ridden in somewhat long term, I'm hooked. Trails around me are up to the land managers, so far no land managers have come out with a stance. I ride where I like. A few questions have arisen from other riders and casual internet conversation asking about ebikes and their use and the land manager locally has been open minded. I think that's probably entirely because said land manager has actually ridden an ebike. He doesn't own one but thought it prudent to ride a few to see what they were about.

This is all very much like snowboards were in the early days. In the 90's snowboards were completely banned from a lot of resorts. And the resorts they were allowed in had all sorts of rules of where they could go or not go and do and not do. The arguments were so silly. One popular one was "snowboards are loud and scare people". That was a really big, well repeated argument at the time, looking back now it's laughable to everyone, and it was laughable to snowboarders back then because they knew it was ridiculous.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> When I ride with my buddies, I use the motor to ride to the trailhead 14 miles, then ride with them for another 10 miles or so without the motor, and use the motor for the ride back home and make a shopping stop on the way.


 You go on 10 mile group rides with your buddies with the motor turned off and your bike weighs 50lbs. You must be one hell of a rider. What do you average? What do you weigh? I can ride my bike with the motor off on the pavement or on flat dirt roads but I couldn't begin to keep up on a group trail ride on a 50 pound bike, or imagine making 10 miles of climbs or steeps with rocks/roots on a 50lb bike.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Double Butted said:


> Not sure what to say to you, especially given your lovely reputation slam earlier today. What e bike do you have exactly?
> 
> I just don't get your scenarios. They seem "out there" to me. Riding up on friends to test theories, "tastefully calling out "Motor" before executing the pass..just sounds sort of corny to me. And what does it have to do with e bikes anyway? I've ridden up and tried to pass a lot of people who were dicks and didn't like me passing...and that's on a regular bike. Who wouldn't be irritated if someone rode up on their butt and called out "motor". How douchey is that? That's like riding up on someone yelling out "Strava". If someone faster is coming up on me, if I can, I get out of the way, but if someone came up on me and yelled out "motor" or "strava" they could get stuffed. I think anyone would think that. Ebike or no ebike.
> 
> ...


Please try to catch yourself before you make assumptions. From assuming that I was implying an issue was ebike only, or leeboh claiming he did 25+ MPH in 10 pedal strokes on a Haibike, you are only creating complications and misunderstandings.

What I stated was not implied to be ebike only, hence why I used runners and cars as examples. It's satire, to describe human vices. The point is that some people have intolerant attitudes fueled by perception/bias issues. They have the "power of democracy", AKA voicing their complaint, and you end up "walking on eggshells". People want to preserve their self-esteem in all sorts of silly ways, even if they themselves are the source of the fault. They play the blame game to influence others to change, rather than take on more responsibility themselves. I'll expand on this and say that it's related to the "introspection illusion" and that they rely on the "illusion of knowledge" to fill in the gap of ignorance. How do you respond to such people and solve a problem? It'd be an endless task addressing the people, when the culture itself is creating these people non-stop.

leeboh stated he was on a "Haibike 500 watt hub motor thing". Why do you get caught up on the Haibike part and use your imagination to create 1 scenario, when there are many? "500 watt hub motor thing" definitely doesn't sound like a stock production creation. You could've questioned leeboh for misinterpreting your post, but instead you replied with a question about Haibikes. My experience was on a Haibike Sduro AllMtn 6.0 with Yamaha motor. The first descent from the trailhead's gate...

To elaborate on the speed issue: in more "bicycle-friendly" communities, they're ahead of the game and are dealing with the issues cropping up from high speed bicyclists sharing paths with other lower speed traffic (cyclists and pedestrians). Municipalities are listening to the complaints and some have installed rumble strips, which are like cobbles. There are voices that are compelling enough, apparently. I don't understand it, since I don't know much of the context, but there's definitely a clear connection to how paths are shared. There's no clear etiquette to follow for shared space like trails. There isn't enough etiquette elsewhere to extrapolate some "common sense". There's no standard signs of feedback from other locals either. In contrast, in Japan they will let you know you are not doing something nice in public space, but when there are no rules, people are tolerant as long as you're not causing trouble nor getting complaints from others. Their tolerance level is key for complaints--that's brings me back to the Western culture and their intolerant pro-segregation perspective, in which lines must be drawn, leading to opinionated BS (illusion of knowledge), judgment (power of democracy), and...

BTW, you accused JB Weld of passive-aggressiveness earlier. This is true passive-aggressiveness, taking out grudges indirectly (e.g. pissing in your coffee, spreading rumors behind your back, stalking you to find dirt, attacking your reputation, slashing your tires, screwing you in some manner, etc.):









He was more direct with you earlier. You usually worry about passive-aggressiveness when someone goes questionably silent after unreasonably disrespecting them, unless the person is petty and is triggered by less shameful things.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> BTW, you accused JB Weld of passive-aggressiveness earlier. This is true passive-aggressiveness, taking out grudges indirectly:


Do you think I would have negged you had you not done the same to me first? Who's the passive-aggressive one here?


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Do you think I would have negged you had you not done the same to me first? Who's the passive-aggressive one here?


Irony. Petty. He also gave me negative rep with some snide comments. I don't pay attention to reputation nor bother myself with lashing out via private messages and reputation smearing. When he negatively repped me it brought up a screen with my other past rep. Most of it came from bike forum, ebike haters, some of which telling me to get the f*ck off the website. It's like kindergarten here with paragraphs of anecdotal evidence and false and outright made up stories as examples of why ebikes are bad. I'm starting to think a lot of cyclists are just nuts. Such a shame. Certainly not worth putting much more effort into speaking much more here, but I think maybe that's the point, right? Turn meaningful posts into a shitshow get off topic, ruin threads, perpetuate the illogical hate is #winning.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Let me reinterate to those reading, interested in ebikes etc. This forum and users are not indicative of what you will encounter in real life when e biking. Not even close.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Do you think I would have negged you had you not done the same to me first? Who's the passive-aggressive one here?





Double Butted said:


> Irony. Petty. He also gave me negative rep with some snide comments. I don't pay attention to reputation nor bother myself with lashing out via private messages and reputation smearing. When he negatively repped me it brought up a screen with my other past rep. Most of it came from bike forum, ebike haters, some of which telling me to get the f*ck off the website. It's like kindergarten here with paragraphs of anecdotal evidence and false and outright made up stories as examples of why ebikes are bad. I'm starting to think a lot of cyclists are just nuts. Such a shame. Certainly not worth putting much more effort into speaking much more here, but I think maybe that's the point, right? Turn meaningful posts into a shitshow get off topic, ruin threads, perpetuate the illogical hate is #winning.





Double Butted said:


> Let me reinterate to those reading, interested in ebikes etc. This forum and users are not indicative of what you will encounter in real life when e biking. Not even close.


What could be the common problem here? Defending your self-esteem? A common trait of this problem is that there's always some sort of excuse prepared for everything, in order to not take responsibility over your own attitude and behavior. Blame these other things, refusing to believe you have a problem with yourself that could use fixing. All it takes is to find one with a similar view to feel secure that it's not you that's wrong, based on the simple logic that it's hard to call multiple people wrong. All this habit accomplishes is delaying the acceptance of a problem. Sleeping, drinking (alcohol), smoking, unhealthy problems? Others have these problems too, it's normal. Toxic to most everyone except that rare compatible person who is is open-minded and unusually tolerant of disgusting amounts of hateful opinions, all illusions/lies? Other people have trouble making real friends too, it's normal.

You can't just play the blame game and use humor devices like irony to push off responsibility. I point at you, you point at the other guy, other guy points back, and whoever has more fingers pointing at them needs to change? Sounds similar to what people foolishly believe is democracy these days. Can I not point at a behavior, rather than a person? Did anyone look up introspective illusion? It describes the fallacy that people think they know themselves best and that no one else knows themselves well, when in fact they don't know themselves, often for the same reasons they believe others don't know themselves. People also believe in some idealisms like egalitarianism, in which some wish for equal treatment--"do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This just doesn't work too well in reality. You cannot force your standards onto others who are closed off to all but a select few, or in select scenarios in which they voluntarily open up.

What's with the protective bubbles? Why reinforce it with venom and try to attack others who probe it with toxic retaliation? Where do people pick up this behavior from? *enables protective bubble: everyone else is wrong except me! If you agree with me, you're cool, until you disagree, then I'll question if I even know you*

There's a known method to get over these simple human vices. Step 1. Know yourself. Your illusion of what you think you are is likely wrong. You need to have external feedback to get a full understanding. You cannot define yourself statically, as you're always changing, influenced by whatever you open yourself up to. Define what precisely you open up to, to guide those changes. Those become your core values. If you open yourself up to logic and concepts like cause-and-effect, you change towards being more scientific and rational. This is a big step, so work on it.

Long story short: no one's perfect. We ourselves have many problems in our individual habits that need addressing. Are we acting in full capacity as humans? Humans are above other species due to the ability to self-reflect and utilize a high level of intelligence. Can you say that you are fully exhibiting these traits? *self-esteem shield deflects the question, redirects it to someone else* Drop this shield. You benefit from fixing yourself. You just need to realize this and how it would benefit you. Just look at who the angered/annoyed ones are. *self-esteem shield denies admitting that you are one* Everyone gets angered/annoyed. If you want to reduce it, guess what one solution option is, one that you actually have control over... that ego of yours. Look at it. It's ugly. All it causes is problems in your relationships with others. Why do you want to keep it? Do you think you feel protected by having it deflect everything, including the light? Make a promise to yourself to fix yourself. You don't need a special occasion to do it, like New Years or some time of the year where you display yourself in public. Perhaps start with being less assuming and judging.


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## foresterLV (Dec 25, 2016)

"trying to fix youself and get better" sounds like a perfect example of ego thing to me. 
is the point to get some personal benefits? or gain benefits from group around? its all ego.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

foresterLV said:


> "trying to fix youself and get better" sounds like a perfect example of ego thing to me.
> is the point to get some personal benefits? or gain benefits from group around? its all ego.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Yep. Shine it up so the ego isn't all ugly. I doubt anyone can actually drop their ego, drop pride, drop envy, drop laziness... you do have the option to acknowledge them all and try to control them. People who demonstrate great self-control over them all are considered wise and mature. Those that allow their ego and their vices control them are seen as low.

[HR][/HR]

I don't wish to lower my standards to get along with others--I'd prefer to bring others up to higher standards. I don't feel shame in pointing out others' shame. I strongly believe it should be a duty. If I get flack in return, I'll attempt to calmly accept it, and actually hope that I receive a lesson of some sort in return. "lol" and revenge doesn't really serve as a lesson. Seeing a reaction that weighs everything doesn't really serve as a lesson. They just reinforce upon lessons I've already learned. I suppose it only serves as challenge to see what the problem is, in more depth.

Weighing* everything is a symptom of thinking too much. I'm sure there's plenty of wise quotes on that. Revenge is a symptom of regression from someone who finds a lose-lose situation acceptable. Plenty of wise quotes about this one too. Thousands of years worth of wisdom, yet people still struggle to learn from the past. Out of all the choices you could opt to respond with, why these methods?

* weighing = judging the subjective value of everything with adjectives, from these discussions being like kindergarten, to cyclists are nuts, etc.

Ebikes are merely a tool. How people use them *does* affect others around them, the same for all other tools. People need to be compassionate enough to open up to others. You have to understand that some of these people have their heads stuffed full of illusions of knowledge. It's a convenient placeholder to fill in for ignorance, yet actual ignorance is better. They use their illusion of knowledge to think and make opinions, thinking it's all true, sometimes so confident that they protect their perception... figuring out a way to deal with this is the challenge. Being intolerant of things due to fear and not wanting to take responsibility, rejecting them is a human vice. We should be intolerant of intolerance itself, and be more willing to accept responsibility, especially over our own actions. We can't expect others to take/share that responsibility while we enjoy freedom selfishly. Sharing is a necessarily skill that people lack that is leading to these problems in public space.

Maybe we should send people back through kindergarten again to learn this sharing skill? xD. I doubt people will accept this idea, due to their self-esteem shield which they conveniently have up constantly. Heck, I had to lower my own shield to see if Double Butted's weighing wasn't exaggerated, but it appears to be quite intuitive. I guess when Double Butted gets more emotional in his posts, we get to see an unfiltered perspective from a wise old man that is quite shocking. It's like looking at a picture someone took of you and saying, "Oh my god, is that what I really look like" and accepting it, rather than denying it and asking for a retake that better matches the illusion that I see myself as. I really did write paragraphs on how people are immature... xD


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## foresterLV (Dec 25, 2016)

look, finding "problems" in others is immoral itself, if you are truly want to become better - focus on yourself. sure we can get emotional sometimes and "loose hope in humanity" but in reality it have nothing to do with "greater good" but its more about personal problems. lets stop personal attacks and be happy.

personally I have no clue why pedal assist emtb "is bad for people", considered getting it myself, but at the end of a day think they are a bit underdeveloped and expensive (yet). that 250w assist is making you go as fast as trained atlete at best and as mentioned cuts out at 20mph. dont see its anyhow dangerous. its cool that people find them useful and happy to read their opinions and experience. 


Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Varaxis said:


> What could be the common problem here? Defending your self-esteem? A common trait of this problem is that there's always some sort of excuse prepared for everything, in order to not take responsibility over your own attitude and behavior. Blame these other things, refusing to believe you have a problem with yourself that could use fixing. All it takes is to find one with a similar view to feel secure that it's not you that's wrong, based on the simple logic that it's hard to call multiple people wrong. All this habit accomplishes is delaying the acceptance of a problem. Sleeping, drinking (alcohol), smoking, unhealthy problems? Others have these problems too, it's normal. Toxic to most everyone except that rare compatible person who is is open-minded and unusually tolerant of disgusting amounts of hateful opinions, all illusions/lies? Other people have trouble making real friends too, it's normal.
> 
> You can't just play the blame game and use humor devices like irony to push off responsibility. I point at you, you point at the other guy, other guy points back, and whoever has more fingers pointing at them needs to change? Sounds similar to what people foolishly believe is democracy these days. Can I not point at a behavior, rather than a person? Did anyone look up introspective illusion? It describes the fallacy that people think they know themselves best and that no one else knows themselves well, when in fact they don't know themselves, often for the same reasons they believe others don't know themselves. People also believe in some idealisms like egalitarianism, in which some wish for equal treatment--"do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This just doesn't work too well in reality. You cannot force your standards onto others who are closed off to all but a select few, or in select scenarios in which they voluntarily open up.
> 
> ...


Oh the irony! I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with most of that speech, but then to do all of that assuming and judging just to tell people to be less assuming and judging...


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

foresterLV said:


> look, finding "problems" in others is immoral itself, if you are truly want to become better - focus on yourself. sure we can get emotional sometimes and "loose hope in humanity" but in reality it have nothing to do with "greater good" but its more about personal problems. lets stop personal attacks and be happy.
> 
> personally I have no clue why pedal assist emtb "is bad for people", considered getting it myself, but at the end of a day think they are a bit underdeveloped and expensive (yet). that 250w assist is making you go as fast as trained atlete at best and as mentioned cuts out at 20mph. dont see its anyhow dangerous. its cool that people find them useful and happy to read their opinions and experience.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Would you call empathy/caring immoral? You promote self-centeredness? You advise shunning responsibility (avoiding more personal problems) and avoiding engagement in public matters? What are you doing if not a personal attack? Do you believe that happiness is real if it's not shared?

People looking to persuade others have to be aware of the backfire effect. Due to cognitive bias, people will compensate for their insecurities by resorting to greater levels of tribalism. It's why groups representing anti-vaccine, flat earth, faked moon landing, anti-assault rifle, climate change denier, etc. exist and continue to grow. These kinds of insecure people grow more skeptical in the face of the facts. If you expose the weaknesses in their argument, such as their contradictions, etc., you accomplish nothing but increase their insecurity and making them hold grudge against you and characterize you as the enemy.

Band-aid fixes don't work in the long term (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixes_that_fail). It's why I focus on addressing the process, or the root of the problem: the culture. Notably, people's behavior and education lacking in some ways, notably elementary levels of sharing and debate.



mountainbiker24 said:


> Oh the irony! I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with most of that speech, but then to do all of that assuming and judging just to tell people to be less assuming and judging...


You're not going to believe what I'm going to tell you, but it's irony that you are assuming and judging that I'm assuming and judging just to tell people to be less assuming and judging, and calling it irony.

It's akin to pointing out that someone saying "don't be rude" to you is ironically rude.

If that amuses you, you would probably be blown away by all the paradoxes in economics. Keynes is some sort of master of illusion. Have an outsider deposit $500, and have that $500 pass through the hands of 10 people paying off their debts and end back up to the one who deposit

Irony and paradoxes are illusions. They reveal how simpler minds are confused when the their own expectations are not met. The illusion of knowledge creates bias that is not letting them see other perspectives, hence why people try to encourage others to look out of the box. Irony is simply 1 perspective, often a stretch, for the sake of humor as the expense of mocking someone. It's a form of passive-aggressiveness, in the same school as sarcasm and satire.

There are plenty of other paradoxes, including behavioral ones such as the backfire effect and reverse psychology. The pattern I used in my first line after your quote, "you're not going to believe", is an example, which is a play off of being assuming. Again, it tends to only work on simple minds. To mature minds, these often serve as a jolt to recharge your conscious.

Figure if I can help make people wiser, they'd naturally be more tolerant, feel less need to resort to tribalism to cover up their insecurities. It also helps me in my studies, where I get to observe concepts such as this: "correct a wise man and he will thank you; correct a fool, and he will spite you."

Riddles: if you aimed to part of a tolerant society, should you be tolerant of those who show intolerance? If you find shaming others to be shameful, should someone shame those who are shaming others? Those with advanced logic should figure these out easily.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Are we really debating metaphysics and Keynesian economics in a forum about electric bicycles? Really?

-Walt


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Walt said:


> Are we really debating metaphysics and Keynesian economics in a forum about electric bicycles? Really?
> 
> -Walt


Why not, if it's on topic? Is labeling humanities as metaphysics supposed to be demeaning? It covers serious science that seeks to understand and attempt to solve real problems. Humanities applies to law, politics, business, etc. Economics is really mind-blowing if you get into it. No one I know really has a much more than a clue. It seems totally irrational at my level, just like climate science is well beyond my level, due to sheer scale. Pointing out the cognitive dissonance people display in everyday life, where they contradict themselves, isn't even on the same level, but I think I am able to get a grasp on it so that is my motivation for trying to understand this first. xD

BTW, the answer to the riddles: A) you cannot have unlimited tolerance. The intolerant would just take over. For a tolerant society, you need to be intolerant to those who are interolant, such as these ebike haters. B) the objective of shaming is not to shame, but to encourage change. The desired effect of shaming is making the other feel guilt, which in turn leads to change. If you feel guilt creates lasting change, there's other methods besides shaming to create guilt. The riddles were not really riddles, but mere logical questions to see if you could think "out of the box" and apply problem solving skills. Anyone with simple logic would perhap think it impossible and see it as a paradox.

I see I didn't fill in the economic paradox for some reason. It was supposed to say that everyone paid off their debt by $500, and generated $5000 in revenue, yet nothing really changed in the end. Such would be confusing to anyone who had relied on simple logic. I could have used any paradox to try and get people to up their logic game. I'm not even sure if people understand Schrodinger's cat, let alone Common Core math. Figured psychology would be a more interesting topic than political science or whatever.

Again, I don't believe in a band-aid fixes, I believe in fixing the process, which is the culture. The work is even more endless if you only address the end symptoms--see the cockroach effect, where if you see 1, there's sure to be many hiding other due to the environment conditions being ideal for breeding them. Handle tons more problems than just the ebike intolerance problem this way.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Varaxis said:


> Why not, if it's on topic? Is labeling humanities as metaphysics supposed to be demeaning? It covers serious science that seeks to understand and attempt to solve real problems. Humanities applies to law, politics, business, etc. Economics is really mind-blowing if you get into it. No one I know really has a much more than a clue. It seems totally irrational at my level, just like climate science is well beyond my level, due to sheer scale. Pointing out the cognitive dissonance people display in everyday life, where they contradict themselves, isn't even on the same level, but I think I am able to get a grasp on it so that is my motivation for trying to understand this first. xD
> 
> BTW, the answer to the riddles: A) you cannot have unlimited tolerance. The intolerant would just take over. For a tolerant society, you need to be intolerant to those who are interolant, such as these ebike haters. B) the objective of shaming is not to shame, but to encourage change. The desired effect of shaming is making the other feel guilt, which in turn leads to change. If you feel guilt creates lasting change, there's other methods besides shaming to create guilt. The riddles were not really riddles, but mere logical questions to see if you could think "out of the box" and apply problem solving skills. Anyone with simple logic would perhap think it impossible and see it as a paradox.
> 
> ...


As long as it's fixed to your own standards, right?


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## foresterLV (Dec 25, 2016)

lobotomy once was "a great scientific solution" to a people(s) problem. 
lets not idealize science or pretend it can solve all humanity problems. it cannot.

that "culture lobotomy" attempt is a nice touch but I guess everyone will pass on that. 

writing self-contradicting walls of text on forums to win minor argument in a name of "science" looks to me somewhat cheap, and its actually devaluate science. more reasearch on etics or religion philosophy needed to start tossing around "ego" or "judging" terms in right context IMO. 



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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If you can't even work in a mention of Kant, or Beanie Babies, or the Torah, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, this sort of stuff just doesn't belong here on the electric bike forum, friend. 

Seriously, even if anyone could understand you (I have an expensive liberal arts degree or two to my name and I certainly don't), what makes you think it's reasonable or useful to have deep philosophical discussions about mountain bikes with motors on them? They're toys used for recreation (just like mountain bikes without motors). Period. 

-Walt


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> If you can't even work in a mention of Kant, or Beanie Babies, or the Torah, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, this sort of stuff just doesn't belong here on the electric bike forum, friend.
> 
> Seriously, even if anyone could understand you (I have an expensive liberal arts degree or two to my name and I certainly don't), what makes you think it's reasonable or useful to have deep philosophical discussions about mountain bikes with motors on them? They're toys used for recreation (just like mountain bikes without motors). Period.
> 
> -Walt


Mountain bikes and mountain bikes with motors are not toys to me. I had 50 days of commuting by electric bike on dirt trails just last Summer. The grocery store is a lot more fun to ride to on challenging dirt trails. Recently the electric bike has made ski and ice climbing adventures possible that would other wise not been. You sound like the anti bike trolls who want bikes banned for hiking is more serious and pure. 'Get yer toys out of nature' is a fine slogan but it only shows your lack of depth and it doesn't apply to me.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Linktung said:


> Mountain bikes and mountain bikes with motors are not toys to me. I had 50 days of commuting by electric bike on dirt trails just last Summer. The grocery store is a lot more fun to ride to on challenging dirt trails. Recently the electric bike has made ski and ice climbing adventures possible that would other wise not been. You sound like the anti bike trolls who want bikes banned for hiking is more serious and pure. 'Get yer toys out of nature' is a fine slogan but it only shows your lack of depth and it doesn't apply to me.


Great employment if you're using eMTB for errands as many of us, including Walt (if you've read his posts), do. However, much of the banter on this sub-forum relates to recreational use. The efforts to understand human behavior while admirable, are not for me here.


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## finnlander (May 3, 2005)

Umm - I think his point, given that he is a moderator, is that we ought to discuss (e)mountain biking and (e)mountain bikes and not whatever philosophy or morals you subscribe to. I'm sure there are other places on the internet for that.

My 2 cents regarding ebikes is that the ones I've ridden at demo days are a blast and I'd love to own one if I could afford it. Why all the hate? My guess is ignorance and fear plus a few jerk illegal e-bike riders ruining it for everyone. I'd much rather see people riding to the trailhead or shuttling themselves up the mountain on an ebike than driving.



Linktung said:


> Mountain bikes and mountain bikes with motors are not toys to me. I had 50 days of commuting by electric bike on dirt trails just last Summer. The grocery store is a lot more fun to ride to on challenging dirt trails. Recently the electric bike has made ski and ice climbing adventures possible that would other wise not been. You sound like the anti bike trolls who want bikes banned for hiking is more serious and pure. 'Get yer toys out of nature' is a fine slogan but it only shows your lack of depth and it doesn't apply to me.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

JackWare said:


> [Insert popcorn meme here]


Indeed. If only we could combine it with a wheel size debate.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Walt said:


> If you can't even work in a mention of Kant, or Beanie Babies, or the Torah, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, this sort of stuff just doesn't belong here on the electric bike forum, friend.
> 
> Seriously, even if anyone could understand you (I have an expensive liberal arts degree or two to my name and I certainly don't), what makes you think it's reasonable or useful to have deep philosophical discussions about mountain bikes with motors on them? They're toys used for recreation (just like mountain bikes without motors). Period.
> 
> -Walt





fos'l said:


> Great employment if you're using eMTB for errands as many of us, including Walt (if you've read his posts), do. However, much of the banter on this sub-forum relates to recreational use. The efforts to understand human behavior while admirable, are not for me here.


It's just a little exposure to wisdom and how there's higher levels of logic to address the problem of culture and ego that's run by "illusions of knowledge". The intent is to offer an alternative to combating the irrationality, since the irrationality seems to be the source of a lot of controversy.

You say bikes are toys for recreation, and you say certain things don't belong on an ebike forum for no clear reason other than not being comprehensive enough to include certain subjects? If I had such liberty, I'd categorize them in a way that highlighted some useful wisdom, as if they were tools. I'd dare say that Kant touches on how freedom is dictated by its compatibility with social cohesion (a balance between your freedom, and the freedom from others). Perhaps beanie babies touches on how unorthodox marketing methods influence consumers to buy what they don't need, sometimes in an irrational frenzied manner. Maybe the Torah can show how spiritual guidance affects one's ego promote a standard of behavior that creates social cohesiveness between the followers. I don't know pop-culture, so I'm struggling to find wisdom in the Raiders, but I suppose it shows how the occult messes with reason, which makes me suspect the source of some extremism. I'd expect people to see them differently, and I'm suggesting that people be open to identifying what's an illusion and what's actually rational, using these other views to help piece together a bigger picture that is non-contradictory.

If you have a better alternative solution to addressing interruptions that create controversy, I'm open. Just dropping "facts" and sources seems to mostly result in the backfire effect, especially when topics are made to appear sensitive. Hard to discuss ebikes, when every other post is hate, which is apparently tolerated on these boards more than philosophy and psychology. It's almost as if you want to protect the purity of the forums to match the stereotypes, being an ego free-for-all featuring endless bickering, arm-chair engineering, gossiping, sharing subjective opinions...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

finnlander said:


> Umm - I think his point, given that he is a moderator, is that we ought to discuss (e)mountain biking and (e)mountain bikes and not whatever philosophy or morals you subscribe to. I'm sure there are other places on the internet for that.
> 
> My 2 cents regarding ebikes is that the ones I've ridden at demo days are a blast and I'd love to own one if I could afford it. Why all the hate? My guess is ignorance and fear plus a few jerk illegal e-bike riders ruining it for everyone. I'd much rather see people riding to the trailhead or shuttling themselves up the mountain on an ebike than driving.


Don't know your economic situation, but you might consider a DIY system which could be as inexpensive as $600-$800 US for the kit and battery.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> It's just a little exposure to wisdom and how there's higher levels of logic to address the problem of culture and ego that's run by illusions of knowledge. The intent is to offer an alternative to combating the irrationality, since the irrationality seems to be the source of a lot of controversy.
> 
> You say bikes are toys for recreation, and you say certain things don't belong on an ebike forum for no clear reason other than not being comprehensive enough to include certain subjects? If I had such liberty, I'd categorize them in a way that highlighted some useful wisdom, as if they were tools. I'd dare say that Kant touches on how freedom is dictated by its compatibility with social cohesion (a balance between your freedom, and the freedom from others). Perhaps beanie babies touches on how unorthodox marketing methods influence consumers to buy what they don't need, sometimes in an irrational frenzied manner. Maybe the Torah can show how spiritual guidance affects one's ego promote a standard of behavior that creates social cohesiveness between the followers. I don't know pop-culture, so I'm struggling to find wisdom in the Raiders, but I suppose it shows how the occult messes with reason, which makes me suspect the source of some extremism. I'd expect people to see them differently, and I'm suggesting that people be open to identifying what's an illusion and what's actually rational, using these other views to help piece together a bigger picture that is non-contradictory.
> 
> If you have a better alternative solution to addressing interruptions that create controversy, I'm open. Just dropping "facts" and anecdotes seems to mostly result in the backfire effect, especially when topics are made to appear sensitive. Hard to discuss ebikes, when every other post is hate, which is apparently tolerated on these boards more than philosophy.


I stated that the philosophy is not for me personally; however, I won't "moderate" it as long as it's discussed without rancor as it has been to date. We've been trying to ameliorate the hate for a long time and, finally, it seems to have subsided.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> I stated that the philosophy is not for me personally; however, I won't "moderate" it as long as it's discussed without rancor as it has been to date. We've been trying to ameliorate the hate for a long time and, finally, it seems to have subsided.


Nah, it's just moved and is scattered hither and thither now. As long as it doesn't show up in the Suspension forum, I'm good.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

fos'l said:


> I stated that the philosophy is not for me personally; however, I won't "moderate" it as long as it's discussed without rancor as it has been to date. We've been trying to ameliorate the hate for a long time and, finally, it seems to have subsided.


So, dilution is the solution to pollution?


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## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

Just ride what you want and act accordingly


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No, the solution is for people to stop being being so damn contrary, to check their baggage at the door, and stop treating people like you (not you specifically) are an anonymous troll.

There should be no discussion of access or legality on this forum, just as access is not discussed on other forums. Take it off line, take it to your legislators, or keep it to yourself.

This thread jumped the shark a ways back, currently serving no purpos other than to give verbose license to a couple posters.

Let's talk about ebikes, you all can write the rest of this stuff in you journal; imagine your kin reading this crap 50 years from now, hysterical!



watermonkey said:


> So, dilution is the solution to pollution?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike. If anything I'm slowed, especially on technical descents, because the bike is cumbersome.



J.B. Weld said:


> If that's the case why do you prefer the electric bike? Slower and more cumbersome doesn't sound so appealing to me.
> 
> I'm not insinuating anything or trying to be snarky, just genuinely curious.


No offense to anyone for GETTING BACK ON TOPIC 

Yeah this is a scary statement above. I thought e-bikes were supposed to go faster, not slower! JB did not mean any harm in the question; I'm confused too. I think you mean that it's slower ONLY on the steeper downhill stuff which is understandable. I cannot understand why it would be slower on flatter and/or smoother surfaces, that doesn't make any sense. And since 80-90% of riding is not downhill stuff, any e-bike should be much faster overall than a pedal bike. And I'm more than willing to take the tradeoff on sluggishness downhill.

Double Butted how much does your bike weigh? I've seen them weigh anywhere between 48 to 110 lbs. That's a huge weight difference. Are you doing lead-acid or something? I'm looking at $850 for the 9 lb wheel and 6 lb battery, 48 lbs total with bike, when all is said and done around roughly $1500 total for everything including bike and non-electric upgrades. Are you saying it's going to be SLOWER than the $650 33 lb bike without the battery and hub??? Dude you are ruining my e-bike dream lol.

As for the rest of the thread...uh...I guess this thread has not been moderated.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

richj8990 said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
> I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike. If anything I'm slowed, especially on technical descents, because the bike is cumbersome.
> 
> No offense to anyone for GETTING BACK ON TOPIC
> ...


Weird. I just received a notice on your reply, but had not received a notice on any of the replies above yours.

To answer your question, I'm a cross country rider. While i don't race anymore, I was riding and training as if I were still racing. I have a very nimble and light weight cross country bike. This is mainly because I still ride with (for fun) and help train, MTB racers. Every ride was a strava fest to the utmost of my ability. So saying I'm not any faster on my ebike, isn't saying ebikes aren't fast...they're just not much faster than what I'm used to. I think it's also important to bust the misnomer that ebikes are super fast rocket ships because they aren't. They're faster, in as much as you can hold the watts at a constant without letting off. So, if you have a big grind of a hill, yes, an ebike will be faster.

Whether you're faster or slower on an ebike? A lot of that depends on what kind of rider you were before hand. If you're a weekend warrior who huffs and puffs to get up a hill, you'll probably be significantly faster. If you're a fit guy or gal who usually gets to the to of the hill fast....you likely won't be that much faster, but it will be much easier for you, your effort will be greatly reduced for the same (or slightly faster) outcome.

I don't know anything about cheap bikes or expensive bikes with electric motors added. I'm more interested in industry bikes. I'm on a Class 1 pedelec, it weighs 54 pounds with the battery installed. It also has a slack geometry more suited for downhill riding and flow than technical riding. I ride mostly technical trails.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

I'd add that the fact that my ebike bike is slower on the technical stuff, I think, is a mechanism of the bike geometry and design, it's just not a nimble bike. Has nothing to do with the E component. Which was sort of what I tried to explain in my first post. Now that I know what ebikes are about...I'm ready to commit big bucks for a lifetime rig. A more nimble rig. A lighter rig.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I totally concur with the Class I ebikes are slower in most situations. This forum has the same handful of posters that continue the ask the same questions over and over in every thread ad nauseam to try and keep red blooded patriots from enjoying a little battery assisted mountain biking. Their goal is to spread chaos and confusion. If that doesn't work they will most certainly correct your spelling.

Anywho, I've had fat bikers blow my doors off in the snow. I've had expert level riders blow my doors off in technical sections. I've had road bikers blow my doors off on asphalt. I've had CX riders blow my doors off on the downhill. The low powered ebike is nothing more than a tool to increase productivity of the gravity challenged. The heavy ebike is subject to a rash of pedal strikes and low bottom brackets. A technical trail becomes a minefield of potential crashes and great care must be taken to ensure that you don't smash the motor with a rock. If I am in top gear, clearing a step up and stand on the pedals with all my weight and pull on the bars whilst adding the full power of the motor I can pretty much snap a chain at will. A motorcycle, these bikes are not. In the summer the motors get hot and derate at full power. They have incredible climbing power in granny gear. They fall on their face when hitting a steep hill at governed speed. If a rider averages a 4mph climb the ebike will advance the rider to a 8 mph climb [not 20 mph]. If the rider averages a 10 mile ride the new total could be 20 miles on an ebike.

I totally see your point about an ebike being your main bike. Both of my ebikes are in the shop an I had to pull my regular mountain bike out today after 1.5 yrs of storage. The first thing I noticed was a lack of traction on slippery rocks caused by lighter weight and skinnier tires. The second thing I noticed is that my heart rate went into the danger zone. My dog was literally running circles around me whilst I pushed my bike uphill. I had to take half the stuff out of my camelback. I struggled whilst going against the wind. Riding against the wind isn't even noticeable when riding an ebike. I must have gotten off of my bike a dozen times to see if the brakes were hanging up. Alas, they were just fine.

So basically, I am no slouch but I never want to go back to a regular bike. 
You're A Tremendous Slouch. Sound Clip and Quote - Hark


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Double Butted said:


> I'm ready to commit big bucks for a lifetime rig. A more nimble rig. A lighter rig.


Lifetime rig? E-bike?

I committed big bucks to my Spec Kenevo and fully expect it to be obsolete in several years.

Then again, just about every bike I've ever owned felt obsolete in the same amount of time.


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## comtn (Jan 23, 2018)

Curious where you guys are riding? I find I'm faster everywhere except super technical downhills. I seem to be pretty close to my stumpjumper but it sure takes a lot more energy to bomb a downhill with the added weight.

Climbing technical I'm much faster because I have more momentum and can stay on the bike instead of dismounting. That said I could care less if I'm faster or slow, I just know I'm have fun 100% of the time instead of suffering 60-70% of the time. I'm riding 3-4 days per week instead of maybe once a week because I don't dread the climbs. Maybe that makes me not a true cyclist but that's ok, I'm here to have fun and be outside, not appease snobby traditionalists.

The stumpjumper and demo are both for sale.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

We are not saying that they are not faster, just not in all places. A 20 mile loop, sure. Flat or technical sections, no. I race strava KOMs all the time. Contrary to what the traditionalist tell everyone, putting a battery on a bike doesn't magically give the rider the skills necessary to go fast. If the trail is like 12-15% grade sure you can drop a regular bike. But only by increasing speed by a couple of miles per hour. If you are climbing a mountain at 3mph the ebike will jump you too 4-6mph depending on power settings. Of course the purist will then post a picture of a franken bike but the franken bike is not legal on non - motorized trails. 

Cheers


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> but the franken bike is not legal on non - motorized trails.
> 
> Cheers


Yeah, that stops them. /sarcasm


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

life behind bars said:


> Yeah, that stops them. /sarcasm


If laws don't stop them, what is your solution?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> If laws don't stop them, what is your solution?


Really stiff fines and forfeiture of assets.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

For the first offence.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

life behind bars said:


> For the first offence.


Oh, you said that making it illegal doesn't stop them, make up your mind.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> Oh, you said that making it illegal doesn't stop them, make up your mind.


Are you really that slow on the uptake?


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## Emdexpress (Jan 24, 2018)

I do not understand e-bikes for healthy folks......you add a lot of weight in batteries and motors to help you get up the big grades but the bike weighs so much You now need epower to overcome the weight. And pedaling on the flat with 50 pounds to haul around you need more power. Self fulfilling prophecy. I like speed and if I cannot get enough on a bike, get a scooter. I was riding alone at 18 mikes an hour and I spot a Fatty coming up on me. I dropped the hammer but no matter how hard I pedaled, he kept gaining on me. He went by me while I was at 24 mph and he was doing at least 30. I do not care you tell me that do not go over 20 because this one did. Easy hacks I am sure to over ride any limiter. The trail said no motors but the rider ignored the law. He never pedaled a stroke. I understand I may need an ebike several years from now but there will be a need. But because I can physically pedal my butt around, I do. When I can’t, I will be first in line to get one so I can continue to enjoy the outdoors.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

life behind bars said:


> Yeah, that stops them. /sarcasm


This is not a law enforcement thread. Please stay on topic.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

life behind bars said:


> For the first offence.





life behind bars said:


> Are you really that slow on the uptake?


Perhaps in your upside down world


Emdexpress said:


> I do not understand e-bikes for healthy folks......you add a lot of weight in batteries and motors to help you get up the big grades but the bike weighs so much You now need epower to overcome the weight. And pedaling on the flat with 50 pounds to haul around you need more power. Self fulfilling prophecy. I like speed and if I cannot get enough on a bike, get a scooter. I was riding alone at 18 mikes an hour and I spot a Fatty coming up on me. I dropped the hammer but no matter how hard I pedaled, he kept gaining on me. He went by me while I was at 24 mph and he was doing at least 30. I do not care you tell me that do not go over 20 because this one did. Easy hacks I am sure to over ride any limiter. The trail said no motors but the rider ignored the law. He never pedaled a stroke. I understand I may need an ebike several years from now but there will be a need. But because I can physically pedal my butt around, I do. When I can't, I will be first in line to get one so I can continue to enjoy the outdoors.


Man who does not ride or own an ebike does not understand them. Whupdeedo.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Emdexpress said:


> I do not understand e-bikes for healthy folks......you add a lot of weight in batteries and motors to help you get up the big grades but the bike weighs so much You now need epower to overcome the weight. And pedaling on the flat with 50 pounds to haul around you need more power. Self fulfilling prophecy. I like speed and if I cannot get enough on a bike, get a scooter. I was riding alone at 18 mikes an hour and I spot a Fatty coming up on me. I dropped the hammer but no matter how hard I pedaled, he kept gaining on me. He went by me while I was at 24 mph and he was doing at least 30. I do not care you tell me that do not go over 20 because this one did. Easy hacks I am sure to over ride any limiter. The trail said no motors but the rider ignored the law. He never pedaled a stroke. I understand I may need an ebike several years from now but there will be a need. But because I can physically pedal my butt around, I do. When I can't, I will be first in line to get one so I can continue to enjoy the outdoors.


Only low powered ebikes are allowed on bicycle trails. Low powered ebikes do not have any torque at higher speeds. If you bypass the governor the bike is still gear bound and it would be impossible to sustain the high cadence for any length of time to hold a high speed. Any gear train changes made to lower the cadence and increase the top speed are conversely detrimental to granny gear climbing. In other words, if you try to convert to a "commuter" drive train you would loose climbing ability for steep hills. A 200lb rider on a 52 lb bike needs the lowest gears possible for steep climbs. If the 200lb rider attempts a steep climb in a tall gear under full battery power the rider will snap the chain. Keep in mind these low powered ebikes have bicycle chains and bicycle free hubs. Proper gear choice for climbing is still paramount. I played around with some demos before I bought my ebike and there is a temptation to stay in the tall gears and utilize full battery power for extra fun but the drivetrain can't handle the excessive torque. On the Levo, running in over torque conditions will quickly cause the motor to get hot and de-rate. It's pretty hard if not impossible to get close to governed speed when the motor is in de-rate.


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## comtn (Jan 23, 2018)

Giant Warp said:


> Only low powered ebikes are allowed on bicycle trails. Low powered ebikes do not have any torque at higher speeds. If you bypass the governor the bike is still gear bound and it would be impossible to sustain the high cadence for any length of time to hold a high speed. Any gear train changes made to lower the cadence and increase the top speed are conversely detrimental to granny gear climbing. In other words, if you try to convert to a "commuter" drive train you would loose climbing ability for steep hills. A 200lb rider on a 52 lb bike needs the lowest gears possible for steep climbs. If the 200lb rider attempts a steep climb in a tall gear under full battery power the rider will snap the chain. Keep in mind these low powered ebikes have bicycle chains and bicycle free hubs. Proper gear choice for climbing is still paramount. I played around with some demos before I bought my ebike and there is a temptation to stay in the tall gears and utilize full battery power for extra fun but the drivetrain can't handle the excessive torque. On the Levo, running in over torque conditions will quickly cause the motor to get hot and de-rate. It's pretty hard if not impossible to get close to governed speed when the motor is in de-rate.


What year levo do you have? My 18 hasn't over heated on me yet. On flat ground I can easily get to governed speed on flat or slight grade. Agreed you need to use the gears to maintain decent cadence to maximize speed as it doesn't have crazy torque.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Comtn, I have two 17' Levos. I usually pick rides that have 2000-3000 ft of climbing. If it is like 80F or above the motor will build heat and start to de-rate. Earlier firmware let the motor get a little hotter but later firmware has more motor protection. They had to design custom heat sinks for the carbon models to try to dissipate the heat. One might think that really sucks that it de-rates but the de-rate will double the range. I've done bookoo testing on straight climbs under full power. When it is cold out under full power I can get 10 miles going straight up the mountain. When it is hot out on the same exact route I get 20 miles because the de-rate must be somewhere around 50%. My riding weight is kinda heavy at around 200lbs plus bike so other rider's experience would of course vary. The Levo has no cooling fins so riding fast does not help with cooling the motor. 
Cheers.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Double Butted said:


> I just got back on a 3 week trip around the United States by Van. I rode quite a few MTB meccas and loads of trails and not one person said a word nor did I have any issues or problems. I don't think most people even knew I was on an ebike. I'm finding the friction seems to only be the blustery keyboard warriors yelling about things they don't understand, making things up in their own minds.


Trust me, you're noticed and likely considered a d-bag but those riders are just being real nice and tolerant by not saying anything and just moving along.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I stop on the trail and talk to people all the time. They usually want to know where they can buy one. If not for themselves they want one for their wives.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Trust me, you're noticed and likely considered a d-bag but those riders are just being real nice and tolerant by not saying anything and just moving along.


Nah. I've been riding 30 years. I know what's up. Perhaps you're the d-bag and see things through your own d-bag lense. You think that others have the same d-baggy mindset that you do. That's not the case. Not in real life. Only happens with internet warriors.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Giant Warp said:


> This is not a law enforcement thread. Please stay on topic.


You brought it up, it's fair game now.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Trust me, you're noticed and likely considered a d-bag but those riders are just being real nice and tolerant by not saying anything and just moving along.


Someone who's tolerant wouldn't consider him to be a "d-bag" simply for riding an e-MTB.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Klurejr has defined the limits of this sub-forum, which are in concert with the owner's, and they don't include issues about the positive or negative aspects of riding legal areas on Class 1 bikes. Anything else that strays will be expunged. Take the drivel to the Access or General forums. This sub-forum is to discuss e-MTB's and products related to them.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Double Butted said:


> Nah. I've been riding 30 years. I know what's up. Perhaps you're the d-bag and see things through your own d-bag lense. You think that others have the same d-baggy mindset that you do. That's not the case. Not in real life. Only happens with internet warriors.


Nah. You're a d-bag.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Nah. You're a d-bag.


You ride a Haro. As if anyone cares what you think.


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## Leebherron (Jan 21, 2004)

Emdexpress stated the e-fatbike went by him at 30mph and "he never pedaled a stroke". Not a legal class one e-bike. They are not powered if you are not pedaling, period !


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Double Butted said:


> You ride a Haro. As if anyone cares what you think.


At least I ride a bike.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> At least I ride a bike.


Question is, can you ride your bike as fast as you run your mouth? I'm guessing you can't. Which is why ebikes threaten you. Your attacks (both public and private) and your polly pure heart hand wringing and crying are unwarranted. Don't worry, ebikes aren't what you've imagined in your head. They're not going to "out" your inadequacy.

Ebikes are just another instrument in the quiver and generally, right now, ridden and enjoyed by long term MTB'ers like Joe Murray, Ned Overend, Hans Rey, Gary Fisher, Troy Lee, Brian Lopes...people who have more MTB cache and history in their BIG TOE than you do in your whole persona.

E MTB's are fun to ride. They're not what uninformed people are presenting them as. People are beginning to understand ebikes, even former haters, which is a great thing. And in real life things aren't nearly so caustic, but in real life people have to have the character and fortitude to discuss something in person and it's harder to make silly claims.

So instead of attempting to ruin this thread further, I'd suggest you go harass Francis. He's riding a Focus e bike, and about to test the Pivot shuttle. He just posted a review of the Focus e-bike... it's a few spaces down from this very thread. I'll watch and wait for you to run your mouth to Francis. Run down there, harass Francis. Also, private message Francis and tell him what a ***** he is for riding an ebike and to GTFO off this site ( that'll be rich). I'll wait.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> E MTB's are fun to ride. They're not what uninformed people are presenting them as.


I'm basically uninformed and have always thought that their biggest appeal is that they're fun, mostly because they allow people to go faster with less effort.

There are no electric bikes to speak of where I live but I did some rides in the big city a few weeks back where there were a bunch of them and could tell if someone was on an ebike from 100 yards away, the first clue was the speed and the next was the motor noise as they went by.

I don't mean this^ as either being a good or bad thing but just an observation and a counter to your statement that they're anonymous and blend seamlessly with bicycles.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Oh the irony. D-B (see what I did there) has become the "keyboard warrior" he's claimed us all to be! :lol:


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I don't get what all the fuss is about: if you ride where you are allowed to ride who cares. That means eMTBs where they are allowed and MTBs where they are allowed. If you are doing that who cares if you only have one bike, electric or not? And whose business but your own is it anyway?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Linktung said:


> Perhaps in your upside down world
> 
> Man who does not ride or own an ebike does not understand them. Whupdeedo.


LOL. Everyone has a different situation. Mine is that I don't have 6 hours to ride 7000 feet up and 30 miles in one day. So I want to do a conversion and get to the fun remote stuff faster. It's not about fitness it's about a time schedule. I'm self-employed and work every single day, I can't do an epic ride w/o an e-bike, it's impossible.

As for the bike's weight, I did the bike calculator and my normal ride pedaling is around 40 watts averaged. The lowest wattage of an e-bike is 250 watts. That's going to way more than overcome the bike's extra weight, and that's at the weakest e-bike level. It's like saying a car weighs so much that you have to have an engine in the car. The most underpowered car can blow away the fastest sprinter or road biker.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

*worth repeating*



Double Butted said:


> ... Don't worry, ebikes aren't what you've imagined in your head. They're not going to "out" your inadequacy.
> 
> Ebikes are just another instrument in the quiver and generally, right now, ridden and enjoyed by long term MTB'ers like Joe Murray, Ned Overend, Hans Rey, Gary Fisher, Troy Lee, Brian Lopes...
> 
> E MTB's are fun to ride. They're not what uninformed people are presenting them as. People are beginning to understand ebikes, even former haters, which is a great thing. And in real life things aren't nearly so caustic, but in real life people have to have the character and fortitude to discuss something in person and it's harder to make silly claims...


_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Double Butted again._


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

levity said:


> _You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Double Butted again._


Nobody has argued that eBikes aren't "FUN" to ride. That always seem to be the big comeback. How could "twisting the throttle" for lack of a better term, and going fast NOT be fun? I experienced that emotion myself when I rode one. It's just like the giggity I get from twisting the throttle on my 150 HP Sport/Tour moto. ****, I giggle at full throttle on a riding lawnmower. Yeah, FUN...we get it!

As for the big names behind eBikes? HA! just another sales pitch like the Corporations have been doing shoving this whole idea down our throat. They absolutely HAD to create another facet of the bike industry. Hell they're running out of "standards" they can change on us without going full circle. Now, the door is wide open to start all over again! It's laughable.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Corporations have been doing shoving this whole idea down our throat. They absolutely HAD to create another facet of the bike industry.


The only thing that has been shoved down our throats is the idea that unlicensed travel is a privelege on US public lands. The Federal Government has tried their best to suppress the free market that is already half a decade behind Europe.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Oh My Sack! said:


> HA! just another sales pitch like the Corporations have been doing shoving this whole idea down our throat. They absolutely HAD to create another facet of the bike industry.


UH OH, did the black helicopters show up again and tell you that you had to buy a new bike again?

Seriously though, I only buy when I feel like it. Apparently I missed out on the whole 29r thing and the fat bike thing. This last winter I was out riding on a treacherous icy trail with my studded mid fat tires. I saw many fatties with bar mitts. Then, out of the blue, I saw a guy on a commuter road bike, super skinny tires with double panniers mounted on the back wearing spandex. He had a big smile on his face and so did I!

Cheers


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Linktung said:


> The only thing that has been shoved down our throats is the idea that unlicensed travel is a privelege on US public lands. The Federal Government has tried their best to suppress the free market that is already half a decade behind Europe.


Agreed.

Anyone who has ridden a class 1 ebike, the kind that Trek, Rocky Mountain, Specialized, Pivot, Scott, Haibike, Focus, Lapierre, etc are selling, knows they have the same trail impact (it's been studied and those of us who ride...know) as standard mountain bikes. And that they're not motorcycles and cannot fly around at mach1..in fact they're not much faster than a strong rider. It's ignorance pure and simple and I'm pretty sure as people start actually understanding what an ebike is, they'll stop making things up because they'll realize how stupid they sound. It's as dumb as arguing that a bike with front and rear suspension shouldn't be allowed on trails because it offers too much advantage over a hard tail.

Speaking of Federal Land. Clearly the policy is ill thought out and was hastily put together. I'd hasten a guess it was written by someone who doesn't even know what an ebike is. The verbage of their rules doesn't actually exclude ebikes though it was their intention.

Motorized trails are different around the US. In some places they're solid double track or slick rock paths etc. In many other places, especially in the Eastern US, they're rocky/muddy roads snaking through the forest with big boulder style rocks and mud pits so deep you disappear if you're not on an ATV or truck and require lots of horsepower/suspension/both.

These bikes should not be forced on motorized offroad trails anymore than a regular mountain bike should. It's dangerous to relegate them there. And I feel this way because these bikes are just bicycles they're not atv's or motorcycles. I wouldn't force cyclists to ride the ATV trails either. These bikes are not motorcycles or ATV's or Jeeps and being lumped into that category is silly and ill thought out or not thought out at all.

But here we are, again, arguing over the validity of ebikes while being called names by a few guys...who seem to be allowed to come in and trash, make fun, and bash and alter topics over and over. A few guys effectively ruining every post here. Makes them seem like they're a bigger group than they really are. I've said it once, I'll say it again. it is NOT this way out in the real world. There's a lot more land to ride than federal land, and smart land managers, and those who have actually experience these bikes are allowing ebikes in. Even some government areas in Colorado and allowing them into to do "impact studies"...which is sort of silly because they've actually been done before...but the point is... people are starting to realize the sky is not falling and that this has all been much ado about nothing.

I also can't help but chuckle when all these regulation thumpers come around quoting Federal policy. All these young guys who I'm sure never speed, have never modified their cars or put a K&N air filter in there who I bet don't go over 10mph on trails when riding their bikes, and I'm sure all say "thank you sir may I have another" every time uncle sam adds a new tax...are embracing the government policy completely and without question like their mothers teat. As if.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

My experience, at least in So. Cal., is that federal land managers would prefer to have land closed to all. We have huge land masses that are wilderness closed to all except those strong enough to walk for days.
Most of this land was previously open to all in the past.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

kneecap said:


> My experience, at least in So. Cal., is that federal land managers would prefer to have land closed to all. We have huge land masses that are wilderness closed to all except those strong enough to walk for days.
> Most of this land was previously open to all in the past.


I hope this post and reply are acceptable to MacKenzie...

Don't worry too much about it. I'm down here too and no one has said I need to leave the area (not on an e-bike but on land that's just to be diplomatic, not 100% accessible if you know what I mean). I spoke with two different rangers here (San Diego) neither one cared what bike I rode on the land that their fellow employees dug the hole and put the sign that says "Public Access Restricted". They don't care. I'm like hey why did you put the sign there then??? They explained that a lot of times, there are fights between the private property owners, the county, the state, the feds, etc., and so during these disputes that can last years or even decades, they simply put signs that say no access for liability reasons. They don't REALLY care if you bike there, or if a neighbor walks their dog there, or if people hike there, or two teenagers make out there, etc. They could not care less. They essentially told me they have other things to do than patrol a gazillion mountain bike trails for any infractions. The only thing they warned me about was the private property owners; they themselves have never ticketed a biker for anything ever. Now it could be very different in other areas of Southern California, or the state, or other states, I don't know. Here, 20 miles from the Mexican Border, the rangers and other law enforcement agents have much more important things to do than harass some American citizen having fun on a bike. They actually put things in perspective, can you imagine that. What if every govt. officer put things in perspective and practiced common sense enforcement and followed the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law, what a nice world we would live in...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Double Butted said:


> Passing at high speed? Sorry, that makes no sense. I don't know what kind of rider some of you are but I'm not faster on my ebike than I am on standard bike.


Are we really going to have the "e-bikes aren't faster" conversation again? Really?

I can take a LEVO up a middle-ring (or, middle of the cassette? front derailleurs are dead) 5% climb and hit the limiter if I try hard. That's *hauling*. I mean, I can get up something like that faster than a lot of people can get *down* it, and I'm not exaggerating. Braking for corners type speed.

Now, to be fair, I'm an ex-pro, and that's in turbo which would wreck the battery pretty fast if I kept it up indefinitely.

But still - more power is more speed, if you want it. No question. I'm sympathetic to the "it's not so much faster that it matters since downhill speed is the same" argument, but there is zero question that e-bikes are faster and saying they're not just makes it harder to get trail access in the future.

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I hope this post and reply are acceptable to MacKenzie...
> 
> Don't worry too much about it. I'm down here too and no one has said I need to leave the area (not on an e-bike but on land that's just to be diplomatic, not 100% accessible if you know what I mean). I spoke with two different rangers here (San Diego) neither one cared what bike I rode on the land that their fellow employees dug the hole and put the sign that says "Public Access Restricted". They don't care. I'm like hey why did you put the sign there then??? They explained that a lot of times, there are fights between the private property owners, the county, the state, the feds, etc., and so during these disputes that can last years or even decades, they simply put signs that say no access for liability reasons. They don't REALLY care if you bike there, or if a neighbor walks their dog there, or if people hike there, or two teenagers make out there, etc. They could not care less. They essentially told me they have other things to do than patrol a gazillion mountain bike trails for any infractions. The only thing they warned me about was the private property owners; they themselves have never ticketed a biker for anything ever. Now it could be very different in other areas of Southern California, or the state, or other states, I don't know. Here, 20 miles from the Mexican Border, the rangers and other law enforcement agents have much more important things to do than harass some American citizen having fun on a bike. They actually put things in perspective, can you imagine that. What if every govt. officer put things in perspective and practiced common sense enforcement and followed the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law, what a nice world we would live in...


I wish the agency that mis-manages the Calavera Preserve in Carlsbad saw things that way.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Walt said:


> Are we really going to have the "e-bikes aren't faster" conversation again? Really?
> 
> I can take a LEVO up a middle-ring (or, middle of the cassette? front derailleurs are dead) 5% climb and hit the limiter if I try hard. That's *hauling*. I mean, I can get up something like that faster than a lot of people can get *down* it, and I'm not exaggerating. Braking for corners type speed.
> 
> ...


How much do you weigh? I would think the primary ebike riders would be the old/non aggressive and clydes. A clyde is not going to go flying up some steep mountain trail on a class one ebike I can tell you that right now. Are people really going to buy ebikes to ride some easy peasy trail that you are worried about or are they going to use the ebikes potential to ride places they don't normally have access to? Aren't people going to use ebikes to replace shuttle rides? Isn't that a good thing?

My next question is why do you care? You were already successful in getting ebikes banned where you live. Why go on the internet to try and dictate what people on other trails can do? Every trail system is not located in the a playground for the elite rich like Park City.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> My next question is why do you care? You were already successful in getting ebikes banned where you live. Why go on the internet to try and dictate what people on other trails can do? Every trail system is not located in the a playground for the elite rich like Park City.


I care because, to me, access to trails (in the very long term - I want to be riding with my grandkids) is what matters. I have no problem with old folks and clydes wanting to go on a ride without having a heart attack. But I have nightmares about young studs deciding they want to go faster or e-bikes becoming synonymous with normal mountainbikes in the minds of the general public. Those are both recipes for access disaster. If class 1 was 15mph/250W limited (EU standard) and there was some assurance that manufacturers would be responsible for preventing hacks and mods, I'd get behind it 100%.

I've said it before - I'd rather ride a 1985 Bridgestone (no discs, no tubeless, no suspension, etc) on a fun trail than an awesome modern wonderbike on a lame trail. I don't want to be relegated to bike parks because people just couldn't resist adding motors and speed to what was already an awesomely fun (and faster than everyone else on the trail) activity.

-Walt


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Walt, I would have to say your fears are unfounded and your grand kids are safe. Sit back, relax. You live in a resort town. The only reason people go there is to ski, ride bike, and shop. If we had to make a list of places at risk of trail closure, Park City would be on the bottom of the list. The local government there doesn't want people buzzing around town on electric bikes because the congestion is already bad. They also don't want the perceived risk of tourists having injuries related to faster bikes. You are safe from trails being closed. 

Utah is in the midst of a bicycle boom. Money is being transferred from all manner of public funds to build build build. Try not to project the doom and gloom from other states into the great state of Utah. Most of all, learn to share with other user groups.

Cheers


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To me, it's a Pascal's Wager situation, at heart. I don't see any huge benefit in putting motorized bikes on singletrack, and there are serious potential consequences. 

I live in PC for a reason, which is mountain biking and skiing (and great schools for the kids) and I volunteer as an ambassador/patroller for the recreation district. There is more conflict than you might think in recent years and with population growth in the Wasatch it's only going to get worse. Trails can and in fact (recently, Rob's) have closed to bikes due to conflict here. 

-Walt


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> To me, it's a Pascal's Wager situation, at heart. I don't see any huge benefit in putting motorized bikes on singletrack, and there are serious potential consequences.
> 
> I live in PC for a reason, which is mountain biking and skiing (and great schools for the kids) and I volunteer as an ambassador/patroller for the recreation district. There is more conflict than you might think in recent years and with population growth in the Wasatch it's only going to get worse. Trails can and in fact (recently, Rob's) have closed to bikes due to conflict here.
> 
> -Walt


Haha some dude in PC complaining about trail loss...anything to make yourself out to be a victim. You got a couple hundred miles to share with people who actually have a situation worth complaining about. Mountain bikers who fail to properly advocate for their own access do a disservice to ebikers.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Admittedly I haven't kept up the pace the last 15 yrs or so with the development of FS and such. Doesn't by any means I haven't been riding but I put a torque sensing mid drive kit on my steel hardtail and it is way more fun with it on there than not and suits my preferered riding style, slow and steady. Invested about a grand in the conversion. 

I am not a total luddite though and run 15ish psi tubeless, i35 carbon rims (700cx2.3 front and 650b 2.7 in the rear), clutched derailleur and 11-42 10 spd. 

So I am going with Double Butted at this point because to me riding mtb fun is where it's at. I do plan on doing a lighter version than the 44 lbs I currently deal with so it is easier to throw over logs and stuff to big to roll over.


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## simbot (May 29, 2007)

Walt said:


> Are we really going to have the "e-bikes aren't faster" conversation again? Really?


We are if you keep spouting nonsense and hyperbole. Yes, e-bikes are faster, but not that much faster, climbing. On my e-bike I can go slightly faster, uphill, than fit 20 somethings, I'm in my 50's. A fit 20 something could go a little faster still, uphill.

Really I seriously doubt people are buying e-bikes because they want to go faster. We buy them because we want to go farther.

Mtbing is usually a social activity, people ride together. Who is going to buy an ebike so they can speed away from their group of friends ? Maybe that's the kind of guy you are, but the vast majority are not are not that brand of A hole who feel the need to "prove" how fast they are to others. Plus what does it prove that you can go fast uphill on an e-bike?

I think your opinion might reflect your motivations, but not representative of the other 99%


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

simbot said:


> We are if you keep spouting nonsense and hyperbole. Yes, e-bikes are faster, but not that much faster, climbing. On my e-bike I can go slightly faster, uphill, than fit 20 somethings, I'm in my 50's. A fit 20 something could go a little faster still, uphill.
> 
> Really I seriously doubt people are buying e-bikes because they want to go faster. We buy them because we want to go farther.
> 
> ...


That is not true, at our local park, my boss ran a Giant Full-E and averaged 18.4mph on a 15 mile lap. He took 20 kom's on Strava and beat J Bishop on every climb. In most case by minutes and he is a world class rider. My boss is 280lbs, 55 yrs old and rides 2 times a month, so just a little faster is complete garbage. Fastest time at the park by world cup level riders was 12.3 mph.

I have one myself too and I used to race pro and I can beat all of my times by 1/2 or more at the same course. I am for ebikes, but tired of the the people who say the are just like other bikes, no they are not, and no they are not a little faster, if you say they are only a little faster you are not being honest. Cmon people!


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Large Man, I am curious what was the total climbing feet from that 15 mile Strava run? What was the wattage on that bike? We are talking about Class one and two ebikes. If I was to average a speed of 18 mph for 15 miles the trail would have to be mostly flat. Number one: the motor on the low powered ebike will get hot and derate at full power when climbing for extended distance. Number two: ebikes are not faster down hill. Number three: ebikes are prone to pedal strikes on technical climbs or trails that are "V" shaped so extreme finesse is needed. Number four: A 280lb clyde could see extreme benefits on a flow trail from an ebike. For example, a clyde that really struggles on the climbs can really send it when gravity tips in his favor. The ebike would be ideal for the clyde in that situation by taking the edge off of the climbs and using his extra weight to override the governor on a flow trail. A 150 lb rider would have trouble exceeding the governor speed of 18 mph on the same trail. Number five: A 280 lb clyde is not going to fly up a 12-15% grade. I am 195 lbs and I can pretty much brake a chain whenever I want under a full power climb. These ebikes have bicycle parts, not motor cycle parts. Number six: Maybe your Strava riders are not that fast. I live in Utah and race against Strava with my ebike all the time. Utah riders are hella fast. Sure I have beaten many KOMs with my ebike but it is only by seconds or minutes. Number seven: I would like to see someone post up about overheating and derate on bikes other than the Levo. Is this only a problem with the Levo? Number eight: Riding an ebike on a flat trail is boring as hell. People that would do that would most likely be the elderly and good for them if they can still get out and ride. I use my ebike to do the impossible. The impossible means climbing steep mountains at 4-6 mph.


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## simbot (May 29, 2007)

LargeMan said:


> That is not true, at our local park, my boss ran a Giant Full-E and averaged 18.4mph on a 15 mile lap. He took 20 kom's on Strava and beat J Bishop on every climb. In most case by minutes and he is a world class rider. My boss is 280lbs, 55 yrs old and rides 2 times a month, so just a little faster is complete garbage. Fastest time at the park by world cup level riders was 12.3 mph.
> 
> I have one myself too and I used to race pro and I can beat all of my times by 1/2 or more at the same course. I am for ebikes, but tired of the the people who say the are just like other bikes, no they are not, and no they are not a little faster, if you say they are only a little faster you are not being honest. Cmon people!


Yes, in my book those results are "a little bit faster". Over the course of 15 miles, the ebike is going to rack up more ground covered as you describe. What I'm saying is, when the fat ebike guy passes J Bishop, he's not screaming by him, he's steadily pulling away over a long period of time, a few Mph faster. The ebiker is not like a motorcycle kicking roost into J Bishops face, as some make it out to be. Of course the fat guy can beat anyone over many miles.

You guys seem to care about KOM a lot. It's adick move for ebikers to put up numbers on the KOM charts, but that's a different subject.

I'm talking about what it looks like to someone standing on the trail watching two bikes roll past. The ebike is going a little faster.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> Utah riders are hella fast. Sure I have beaten many KOMs with my ebike but it is only by seconds or minutes.


#9: lol


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> Sure I have beaten many KOMs with my ebike but it is only by seconds or minutes.


Yet they aren't faster...

Sigh. I can kinda sorta understand the "they're not faster enough to matter/aren't faster on the DH" argument, but let's call a spade a spade here. If your average Joe Sixpack can beat a full time pro (even if only by "seconds or minutes") that's pretty strong evidence that in fact... they are faster.

I still don't understand why this is even worth talking about. You're adding <10kg of weight in exchange for *at least* 250w of extra power. You probably weigh like 80kg and if you're really fit can put out about the same. You do the math on the power/weight ratio and get back to me.

-Walt


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

simbot said:


> We are if you keep spouting nonsense and hyperbole. Yes, e-bikes are faster, but not that much faster, climbing. On my e-bike I can go slightly faster, uphill, than fit 20 somethings, I'm in my 50's. A fit 20 something could go a little faster still, uphill.
> 
> Really I seriously doubt people are buying e-bikes because they want to go faster. We buy them because we want to go farther.
> 
> ...


 You are thinking your opinion is the only one. I am 50. I ride a lot and go as fast as I can. I usually like to ride alone and if I were assisted I would still ride as fast as I could. Just faster. If I got a ebike I would hack it to get the most power I could. The mtb world is about upgrades isn't it?
The naysayers are not pointing the finger at someone like you. You need to look at the youtube generation to see what we are afraid of.
I really don't see why someone on a budget would pay a upgrade for a motor.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

KOM rides are just for giggles. You can't get a nice 20 mile 3000 ft ride in when you are on max power. Every electron must be metered with extreme care and diligence. Just saying....


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> #9: lol


Truth. Heh heh


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

A hiker passed me the other day on medium assist and I can outclimb all y'all on a non-ebike. Anecdotes are just that.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

sure on a 15 mile ride an ebike can be set to full power and go faster uphill but who does that, I would think most people are in it for the range which means they don't go that fast


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

natrat said:


> sure on a 15 mile ride an ebike can be set to full power and go faster uphill but who does that, I would think most people are in it for the range which means they don't go that fast


Time for a reality check? Seriously.

:skep:


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

That's my reality: range over speed any day. I want more miles on the trails, not more speed up hill. I'm fast enough to scare myself as it is, who needs more...... 20mph top speed under power is more than enough, besides the speed limit in Topanga park is only 15mph.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

I'm with you woodlandhills, I ride for fun only. I stop for hikers, say hi, & then go on my way. I can do about twice my range. thats enough, & I ain't crippled the next day.

A-hole riders are A-hole riders on any bike, peddle or assist. I see full armor dudes on peddle bikes shuttling mnt Pinos descending at downhill speeds on what is basically a hiking trail with no concern who might be walking up around the next turn.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I hope that someone is not seriously considering riding at governed speed of, dare I say, 18 MPH. <GASP> The horror. Mabel, hold me back, I'm going full retard.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

18mph is fast if you ask me! That's faster than average riders will hit on the *downhill* portions of a very fast/non technical XC trail. 

-Walt


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

kneecap said:


> I'm with you woodlandhills, I ride for fun only. I stop for hikers, say hi, & then go on my way...


Accross the street from my house is a regional park that does not allow motorized vehicles. I have seen snowmobiles, motos, quads even seen a Jeep Wrangler off-roading in the park. Every time I encounter this, they are always really nice, stop and say hi, let my kids check out their machines, let us pass and then go on there way. There out riding for fun same as you.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

singletrackmack said:


> Accross the street from my house is a regional park that does not allow motorized vehicles. I have seen snowmobiles, motos, quads even seen a Jeep Wrangler off-roading in the park. Every time I encounter this, they are always really nice, stop and say hi, let my kids check out their machines, let us pass and then go on there way. There out riding for fun same as you.


Sounds like a great place to live with all those nice people everywhere.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> Sounds like a great place to live with all those nice people everywhere.


Yeah they should just change the rules to say that as long as you're friendly there are no restrictions, people driving tanks are just out there having fun the same as you and me!


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

I saw a ktm 950 drifting a corner on a fire road at full tilt in mt tam state park in marin ca home of many nimby small brained enviro facists, it was beautiful. Anything anywhere is fine with me as long as no one gets hurt


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Giant Warp said:


> I hope that someone is not seriously considering riding at governed speed of, dare I say, 18 MPH. <GASP> The horror. Mabel, hold me back, I'm going full retard.


A few posts above we have people comparing ebikes and ebike riders to jeeps, monster trucks and snowmobiles running through public parks.

Either these people are trolls or uninformed. I personally think it might be a third option, wanton stupidty for the sake of trolling.

Ebike have no more trail impact than any other mountain bike. Anyone who rides one, knows this. Those who are haters...there's long term studies.

It's all so utterly ridiculous. I can't believe it's even an issue. And, it's not, not with most people..just a few outspoken internet trolls and local club strava junkies who (mistakenly) think ebikes are going to take their KOM. And/or the completely and utterly UNINFORMED who has "heard" things online.

It's interesting to read, ride, and converse with mountain bikers in the UK and Australia, Germany and other places. And I'm not just talking ebikers...ALL mountain bikers. Their minds are blown that we here in "America" are even arguing over this. It's almost a curiosity to them. They don't understand it at all.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> It's all so utterly ridiculous. I can't believe it's even an issue. And, it's not, not with most people..just a few outspoken internet trolls and local club strava junkies who (mistakenly) think ebikes are going to take their KOM.


Giant Warp says he's taken down bunches of kom's on his electric bike.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Giant Warp says he's taken down bunches of kom's on his electric bike.


Guess it depends on where you ride, what kind of trails you ride and who you've got locally (and otherwise) riding your trails. I've got kids, like actual, junior, kids in my area that can blow ebikes out of the water overall.

If you're a strava-tard they have an "ebike" option, so there's that. The strava boards are a joke anyway from GPS drift to incorrect data and trail short cuts that count as overall. And, if your claim to fame in life is how many strava segments you have KOM or QOM on...you're probably sort of a Fred anyway.

But we all know anyone who cites that ebikes should be banned because they might take a Strava KOM is clearly a troll, so it's moot anyway.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> But we all know anyone who cites that ebikes should be banned because they might take a Strava KOM is clearly a troll, so it's moot anyway.


I wasn't suggesting that electric bikes should be banned because they might take a kom, just calling out a false claim.

You seem kind of judgmental and spiteful for someone who advocates inclusion.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> A few posts above we have people comparing ebikes and ebike riders to jeeps, monster trucks and snowmobiles running through public parks.
> 
> Either these people are trolls or uninformed. I personally think it might be a third option, wanton stupidty for the sake of trolling.
> 
> Ebike have no more trail impact than any other mountain bike. Anyone who rides one, knows this. Those who are haters...there's long term studies.


Why are you bringing up trail impact?

I haven't seen any trail impact when these jeeps, motos, or quads go thru the park. Wouldn't know they went thru unless I saw them in person. And I know there are a lot more that go thru the park than what i have seen. I can tell snow snowmobiles have gone thru since they make an obvious track in the snow, but when it melts, no impact to the trails.

What's your point and why are you calling people trolls for things they didn't say?


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I wasn't suggesting that electric bikes should be banned because they might take a kom, just calling out a false claim.
> 
> You seem kind of judgmental and spiteful for someone who advocates inclusion.


It's not a false claim. I can state, for a fact, that I have an ebike and I don't take KOM's. I've never taken one. Not in my area. I'm sure there's a bell curve on that across the globe and across riders. The point is, (as if I you really don't know) that ebikes aren't motorcycles and aren't that much (if any) faster.

If you mean judgemental over strava? Nah. I use strava. I have no problem with it. By Fred's and claim to fame in life, I mean the people who get into literal fights in real life over KOM's. Who call a lawyer. There's been articles recently about it. If you get into fist fights over strava, you might also be worried that an ebike would steal your KOM.

If you mean in general? Well, I'm just beyond tired. Weary I guess you could say of every thread here, no matter the original subject, being clowned, trolled, bashed, topic changed and it's the same old outlandish tired stuff EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. And just all so incredibly silly.

I feel like I'm trying to explain to my 5 year old over and over and over again that there really aren't monsters under the bed.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Double Butted said:


> It's not a false claim. I can state, for a fact, that I have an ebike and I don't take KOM's. I've never taken one. Not in my area. I'm sure there's a bell curve on that across the globe and across riders. The point is, (as if I you really don't know) that ebikes aren't motorcycles and aren't that much (if any) faster.


Do you log you rides on strava using the eBike setting or the pedal bike setting?

Just curious.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> It's not a false claim. I can state, for a fact, that I have an ebike and I don't take KOM's. I've never taken one. Not in my area.


I believe it but that's not what you said. I was just pointing out that if you're tired of people making false claims about electric bikes you should probably avoid doing the same.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

singletrackmack said:


> Why are you bringing up trail impact?
> 
> I haven't seen any trail impact when these jeeps, motos, or quads go thru the park. Wouldn't know they went thru unless I saw them in person. And I know there are a lot more that go thru the park than what i have seen. I can tell snow snowmobiles have gone thru since they make an obvious track in the snow, but when it melts, no impact to the trails.
> 
> What's your point and why are you calling people trolls for things they didn't say?


You have my apology. Guess it's like a dog that's been kicked too many times. After a while you assume someone is kicking you even if they're just trying to pet you. I thought you were being facetious. A smart ass.

You mentioned banned trails and ATV's and Ebikes. I thought you were suggesting that Jeeps and Snowmobiles/ATV's and whatever else should be ok in the park because they're friendly, and being facetious in doing so. I guess I thought that because, while I'm an ebike proponent, I don't think Jeeps and Snowmobiles should be out on single track trails because they do cause big impact. Ebikes are the same as bicycles. So..I thought you being facetious comparing Jeeps and ebikes as equal trail users.

I also thought you were comparing the two facetiously because others DO compare the two. Ebikes are relegated to ATV/Jeep trails. Relegating Ebikes to Jeep trails IMHO is dangerous. Ebikes (just as other bicycles) have NO PLACE among ATV's and Jeeps etc, or riding the trails they're designed for.

Again, sorry for misreading your comment.


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## Double Butted (Jan 27, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> Do you log you rides on strava using the eBike setting or the pedal bike setting?
> 
> Just curious.


I don't log them at all.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Double Butted said:


> Those who are haters...there's long term studies.


There are? I've never found any. There's IMBA's, which was a controlled short term study, and unfortunately only looked at 250w emtbs, not 750w. I'd like links if you have them.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Giant Warp says he's taken down bunches of kom's on his electric bike.


In Strava it is possible to change a ride classification from bike to ebike to running/walking or whatever after the fact. It is also possible to publicly hide a Strava ride. In other words it shows the info on the users end but not publicly. It is also possible to get a KOM and then delete the very ride that you got a KOM for. All of these can be done from the phone app. I have done all versions of this but mostly I ride privately on Strava. One time I forgot to delete a KOM and the previous KOM rider went out the very next day and got his KOM back. I was just thinking how he must have been up all night thinking about it and probably took the day off of work to get it back. LOL You know, they have handicap in golf. Why not mountain biking? LOL


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Hey Walt, I was checking out the Park City regs. They say explicitly that all trails are open to disabled persons riding ebikes. I had this great idea since I have two Levos. I'll work on getting a handicap placard for myself. If you could work on filling out the paper work to be my emotional support pet we could ride. Yes?


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Harryman said:


> There are? I've never found any. There's IMBA's, which was a controlled short term study, and unfortunately only looked at 250w emtbs, not 750w. I'd like links if you have them.


Traditional mountain bikers always climb on the path of least resistance. In other words they always avoid the loose gravel (read main trail) in favor of the nice top soil on the sides of the main trail. I can provide many pictures of trail widening/spread in areas where the traditional mountain bikers "spread" the trail by two feet ever year. My ebike is heavy and has wide tires compared to the typical mountain biker. The increased traction plus the electric assist means that I can climb the loose stuff and "not" contribute to trail widening that regular mountain bikers are known for.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Giant Warp said:


> Traditional mountain bikers always climb on the path of least resistance. In other words they always avoid the loose gravel (read main trail) in favor of the nice top soil on the sides of the main trail. I can provide many pictures of trail widening/spread in areas where the traditional mountain bikers "spread" the trail by two feet ever year. My ebike is heavy and has wide tires compared to the typical mountain biker. The increased traction plus the electric assist means that I can climb the loose stuff and "not" contribute to trail widening that regular mountain bikers are known for.


Sorry, your opinion based on a sample size of one, isn't the same as a long term study. Good story though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Double Butted said:


> Relegating Ebikes to Jeep trails IMHO is dangerous. Ebikes (just as other bicycles) have NO PLACE among ATV's and Jeeps etc, or riding the trails they're designed for.


NO place? Me and my mountain bike have logged dozens of rides on ATV/Jeep trails and have had loads of fun doing it, contemplating going on another one right now.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> In Strava it is possible to change a ride classification from bike to ebike to running/walking or whatever after the fact. It is also possible to publicly hide a Strava ride. In other words it shows the info on the users end but not publicly. It is also possible to get a KOM and then delete the very ride that you got a KOM for. All of these can be done from the phone app. I have done all versions of this but mostly I ride privately on Strava. One time I forgot to delete a KOM and the previous KOM rider went out the very next day and got his KOM back. I was just thinking how he must have been up all night thinking about it and probably took the day off of work to get it back. LOL You know, they have handicap in golf. Why not mountain biking? LOL


Yes I'm aware of that but it's beside the point.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> Traditional mountain bikers always climb on the path of least resistance. In other words they always avoid the loose gravel (read main trail) in favor of the nice top soil on the sides of the main trail. I can provide many pictures of trail widening/spread in areas where the traditional mountain bikers "spread" the trail by two feet ever year. My ebike is heavy and has wide tires compared to the typical mountain biker. The increased traction plus the electric assist means that I can climb the loose stuff and "not" contribute to trail widening that regular mountain bikers are known for.


All of them? All of the time? Really? I don't, and I know 53 others that do not.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> Hey Walt, I was checking out the Park City regs. They say explicitly that all trails are open to disabled persons riding ebikes. I had this great idea since I have two Levos. I'll work on getting a handicap placard for myself. If you could work on filling out the paper work to be my emotional support pet we could ride. Yes?


Yes, I'm on record many times saying I think people with physical disabilities should be allowed to ride ebikes anywhere they want. It would really suck to have been blown up in Iraq, or hit by a car, or born with a nervous system problem and not be able to go ride.

Of course, as far as I can tell you can get a handicapped placard for a hangnail (or, really, nothing at all if you find a friendly doctor). So you should have no trouble getting one if you're, um... motivated enough.

Funny story, I saw what had to be a 120 pound Doberman at Hogle Zoo last weekend that was going crazy (obviously not trained at all), with a "service animal" vest on it. Sooner or later there is going to be a real backlash against that sort of stuff. If I was handicapped (whether I needed a service animal/ebike or not) I'd be f'ing furious.

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Giant Warp said:


> Traditional mountain bikers always climb on the path of least resistance. In other words they always avoid the loose gravel (read main trail) in favor of the nice top soil on the sides of the main trail. I can provide many pictures of trail widening/spread in areas where the traditional mountain bikers "spread" the trail by two feet ever year. My ebike is heavy and has wide tires compared to the typical mountain biker. The increased traction plus the electric assist means that I can climb the loose stuff and "not" contribute to trail widening that regular mountain bikers are known for.


People ride around mud and around rocks and braid the trail but I don't think that behavior varies from user group to user group. I've done loads of maintenance on bike trails, hiking trails, and also moto trails (where presumably there would be no need/motivation to go around stuff since you're not even pedaling) and people go around all the rocks and loose stuff there too.

That's just human nature, not something specific to mountain (or e) bikers.

For the record, I don't think the trail impact of e-bikes (Class 1) is much different than of normal bikes, except that e-bikes can go farther/faster. Water/erosion/poor design is the big enemy, not any particular user group.

-Walt


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> Water/erosion/poor design is the big enemy, not any particular user group.
> 
> -Walt


cept for horses... the weight distribution of a horse is ideal for trail damage. If only there was a legal, fun, safe way to recreate, without an increased effort compared to riding a horse.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Harryman said:


> There are? I've never found any. There's IMBA's, which was a controlled short term study, and unfortunately only looked at 250w emtbs, not 750w. I'd like links if you have them.


250w motors can have maximum outputs close to 750w. Buddies on 250w can keep up with me on 750w just fine.

The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Linktung said:


> 250w motors can have maximum outputs close to 750w. Buddies on 250w can keep up with me on 750w just fine.
> 
> The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com


Right, and a 750w nominal can easily peak at 1500w or more if you want to run high enough voltage through them. The impact of which hasn't been looked at all AFAIK and would be helpful since that's what the law allows. If the laws were the same as the EU it'd be easy to point to them, but they're not. As a trail design and build guy, I'd actively like to see data on 750w ebikes, I think the impact of 250w emtbs could be easily managed, but no clue on higher and higher torque emtbs, since no one has studied it yet.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Right, and a 750w nominal can easily peak at 1500w or more if you want to run high enough voltage through them. The impact of which hasn't been looked at all AFAIK and would be helpful since that's what the law allows. If the laws were the same as the EU it'd be easy to point to them, but they're not. As a trail design and build guy, I'd actively like to see data on 750w ebikes, I think the impact of 250w emtbs could be easily managed, but no clue on higher and higher torque emtbs, since no one has studied it yet.


There's little use for such a study. No significant difference. Tire size and weight have more significance. Your questions would be better answered with some experience substituted in place of assumption.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Linktung said:


> There's little use for such a study. No significant difference. Tire size and weight have more significance. Your questions would be better answered with some experience substituted in place of assumption.


Lol

The only way emtbs will ever get access around here is if you can bring land managers data proving your assumption, so I'd disagree regarding their usefulness. Anecdotes don't cut it IME.

The claim was made that studies exist, I'm simply asking for links to those studies.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Lol
> 
> The only way emtbs will ever get access around here is if you can bring land managers data proving your assumption, so I'd disagree regarding their usefulness. Anecdotes don't cut it IME.
> 
> The claim was made that studies exist, I'm simply asking for links to those studies.


There are no studies proving red ebikes cause more damage then blue ebikes either


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Linktung said:


> There are no studies proving red ebikes cause more damage then blue ebikes either


Likewise, nobody has conclusively shown that my nuclear powered pogo stick does any damage...

If you want to get access, it's on *you* to show that your activity is compatible with the existing uses and sustainability goals for the trail system, not the land managers or existing MTB community. As everyone has said a zillion times - if you want a seat at the land management table, you have to put in the (long, boring) hours of volunteering and going to meetings. Making blanket statements on the internet doesn't impress the people who run the show.

-Walt


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I've been riding moto long enough to experience many riding areas getting shut down. Motos make noise, dust, erosion (when roosting), insane speeds, and rogue hill climbing. In fact, they look so scary as to send a poor snow flake looking for their safe space. Low powered ebikes do not possess these traits. Why are MTBR purists so uptight?


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

Special quiz. One photo is of the gear I use for my moto. The other photo is of my ebike gear. Which one is not like the other?


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> Likewise, nobody has conclusively shown that my nuclear powered pogo stick does any damage...
> 
> If you want to get access, it's on *you* to show that your activity is compatible with the existing uses and sustainability goals for the trail system, not the land managers or existing MTB community. As everyone has said a zillion times - if you want a seat at the land management table, you have to put in the (long, boring) hours of volunteering and going to meetings. Making blanket statements on the internet doesn't impress the people who run the show.
> 
> -Walt


I run the show


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Linktung said:


> I run the show


Considering posts like these:



Linktung said:


> Several years ago I purchased a RANS alterra 29er with lots of skepticism about it's off road capabilities. After a few comfort modifications the bike is my go to for any terrain or trail. The bike is comfortable without bike shorts and even with bike shorts I only last a short while before discomfort sets in on most other bikes. I am faster on the alterra. The crank forward geometry makes for easy stand peddling on flats and climbs while the 60 degeee effective seattube angle makes the descents steady and fast. Modern bike geometry has been evolving in this direction for awhile, and I can see the crank forward design by RANS as becoming more commonplace. The only part of the crankforward design that needs a little bit of evolution is the steerer tubes are too short on most forks. The steerer column adapters that I use are an effective but inelegant workaround.
> View attachment 1007811





Linktung said:


> I have raced xc and even enduro on it. I did fine, much better then I did on 'other' bikes. I used strava in the past buut racing in general feels contrary to my inclusive personality, I am not *****ey enough for it. Modern bikes have lengthened wheelbase and shortenened reach, the only thing they haven't done is changed the hip angle to accomodate their shortened reach. What modern bike geometry does whith it's seat angle is somewhat irrelevant as most of the people I ride with spend a lot of time off the seat, oftentimes riding behind it in crankforward positioning. A few years ago I would have said their is no way the bike industry would allow for the evolution of crankforward, mostly because the big hitters avoid change as if their lives depended on it. Now things are changing at such a rapid rate that it seems like only a matter of time before a bike designer tinkers in this direction. It would be cool to have an option other then RANS but I have too many bikes as it is.


I'm finding it hard to believe you.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

chazpat said:


> I'm finding it hard to believe you.


The best selling bike AND ebike are crank-forward. Ebikes and Crank-forward are PB and jelly.


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## comtn (Jan 23, 2018)

For those saying E bikes aren't faster I've done comparisons on my garmin watch stumpjumper to levo. Average mph on the stumpy was around 4, levo 11mph average on the same trails. On a climb last night that had me pushing from exhaustion on the stumpy I was pulling 10 mph like nothing. 

Do I think they should be banned? No, but I understand the concern in areas where hikers are popular because of the increased speeds.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Linktung said:


> The best selling bike AND ebike are crank-forward. Ebikes and Crank-forward are PB and jelly.


Oops, I pos repped this, can someone fix my mistake? :lol:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Zowie said:


> Oops, I pos repped this, can someone fix my mistake? :lol:


Happily.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I am a big fan of foot-forward bikes... for my almost-70 year old mother in law.

Keep on fighting the good fight, brother. Offroad recumbent riders unite!

-Walt


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Linktung said:


> The best selling bike AND ebike are crank-forward. Ebikes and Crank-forward are PB and jelly.


I'm guessing you're talking about&#8230;



Linktung said:


> Not that they are the same thing, but the electra townie has a similar geometry and that is the best selling bike in the US. I have put twenty plus folks on my bike for offroad use, everyone liked it and rode trail with more confidence then their full suspension bikes.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

Man...reading this thread makes me SO happy our BLM and Forrest Service classify eBikes as motorized and banned them from all non-motorized trails.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

STT GUY said:


> Man...reading this thread makes me SO happy our BLM and Forrest Service classify eBikes as motorized and banned them from all non-motorized trails.


Thankfully, the FS here has been very specific about doing the same thing. I am grateful.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

The problem is who goes out and differentiates and polices the legal 250 Watt models and the twist throttle 1250+ watt models? So....our BLM and Forrest Service made it easy... motors of ANY kind are banned from non-motorized trails.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

And the hikers will hate ALL mountain bikes because they won't realize and e-moto just buzzed them


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

I'm far from a purest. I've forgotten about more time on motos than most will ever remember. 

I am also an engineer and understand the 
difference between motorized and non-motorized. Does it have a motor? Yes? Well than its not appropriate for non-motorized trail. Let's say for a moment we allow the specific low wattage eBike on trails... it becomes an enforcement nightmare. It would be the same as allowing motos of say... 30 rwhp or less only on certain trails. impossible to enforce

I'm all for eBike advocates building eBike friendly trails but not for converting most existing non-motorized trails.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Giant Warp said:


> Special quiz. One photo is of the gear I use for my moto. The other photo is of my ebike gear. Which one is not like the other?


Is that why companies are making products specifically for e-bikes?


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## comtn (Jan 23, 2018)

STT GUY said:


> I'm far from a purest. I've forgotten about more time on motos than most will ever remember.
> 
> I am also an engineer and understand the
> difference between motorized and non-motorized. Does it have a motor? Yes? Well than its not appropriate for non-motorized trail. Let's say for a moment we allow the specific low wattage eBike on trails... it becomes an enforcement nightmare. It would be the same as allowing motos of say... 30 rwhp or less only on certain trails. impossible to enforce
> ...


The problem with enforcement is they are going to be harder and harder to identify. The levo already looks pretty similar, imagine what they will look like in 10 years. If underground engineers can design a bike to cheat in the tour now they will be crazy stealth in the near future.


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