# Stop sanitizing trails



## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

In my local area, trail sanitization (i.e., modifying trails or features to a lower ability level) is an ongoing problem, and more and more I see this as a widespread issue throughout the country. This needs to stop! If you encounter a section of trail or an obstacle that exceeds your current ability level, then challenge yourself, practice that section and become a better rider, or walk your bike past until you can comfortably and safely ride it. But PLEASE do not modify the feature and make it easier for YOU to ride, or make a cut around the object.

Why does this even matter? Because it modifies the trails from the intended, planned route. These features were put in place by the builder(s) for a reason, and in most instances, with permission from the land owners/managers. For example, some features are put in place specifically to slow riders approaching an intersection or a blind turn, or to shore up terrain to prevent erosion. Others are routed along a particular line to avoid another sensitive area. And when people start modifying the trail, it deviates from those plans that were laid and agreed to, and worse, sends a message to other riders that its okay to modify the trails. I've spoken with public land managers (USFS District Ranger level), and I promise you that this is one of the leading factors that gets trails closed, permanently.

Some are likely to cast blame on Strava, and sure that might be part of it, but guaranteed its not the driving force. I think it has more to do with a growing sport (which is good) and riders with a wide range of ability, coupled with a sense of egocentrism and entitlement. I'm on Strava and have used it for years. I've never modified a trail, and none of my friends have either. Its great that our sport is growing, and I fully appreciate that there are riders of all ability levels. I myself am a very average rider, but I have never modified a trail to bring it down to my ability level because I know there are other riders who appreciate the challenge, and I don't want to ruin it for them. I like to challenge myself in the hopes of improving my skill and becoming a better rider, and I love the feeling of cleaning a section or obstacle for the first time.

Trail sanitization needs to stop folks, plain and simple. If you see a new cut, don't ride it. If you see a ramp built, take it down. If an obstacle disappears or moves, then try to put it back. If you see someone doing it, ask them to stop and explain why. Each one of us is an ambassador for our sport, and every time we go out and ride, we need to set a good example.

Spread the word on social media, tell your friends, and #stopsanitizingtrails


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Two examples from my area . . .

The original route is to the left. There was a very challenging ledge to climb up, at least 20" with a narrow slot in the middle. It was very challenging, but absolutely rideable. Folks built themselves a ramp to the left, but even that was apparently not enough because someone came along and added the cut to the right.









Here's another ledge that is challenging but rideable. People keep building this ramp, and its quite small now, but I've seen it much larger and in the middle of the trail, instead of off to the side as it is now. You might say "what's the big deal, you can still ride the challenging section and drop the ledge if you want." The problem is that it sends the message that its okay to do this and they will start cropping up in other parts of the trail.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

In my neighborhood it is corner cutting. Every time I ride I see new lines. I mean if you want to ride a straight line then ride the gravel road. I think people must feel "hardcore" to find a new line.
To combat this on every ride I stop once and do a little maintenance.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Not cool. I've had a few talks with people on our local trails. Each time they were tourists from out of town.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Silentfoe said:


> Not cool. I've had a few talks with people on our local trails. Each time they were tourists from out of town.


This is a really important point too . . . I've introduced a couple people to the sport, and they all got lessons in trail stewardship, including a) right of way/rules of the trail, b) trail maintenance, and c) not modifying trails. We have to spread the word and combat this from within within the sport, especially as it continues to grow.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2016)

Silentfoe said:


> Not cool. I've had a few talks with people on our local trails. Each time they were tourists from out of town.


 Just spent 6 weeks on the eastern slope and wouldn't dream of "adjusting" a trail. I guess some folks just want to ride the same boring crap they have at home so they recreate it where ever they go. You'll find them eating at McDonalds all over the world.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Around here, corner cutting is a big deal, too.

I usually see evidence of corner cutting pop up after a race has been held on a particular trail.

That's not the only time it occurs, but if one racer cuts a corner, then others follow and bed in a shortcut in record time.

I also see poor handling of oncoming traffic as another source of alternate routes. Instead of slowing down and and passing by each other like reasonable people, there's occasionally that one fool who crashes through the brush. This takes longer to really bed in, but if one guy rides a line, especially during a drier time of year, or in the fall/winter when the leaves are down, then other people will follow it to "explore". Eventually it becomes an actual line that a significant portion of riders will use.

The lap time crowd in general is a big source of this sort of trouble. They predate Strava by a long margin, but Strava certainly enables the behavior. Most of our tech features intentionally have alt lines from when the trail was built (or the tech features ARE the alt lines, depending on the difficulty of the trail), so we don't usually have problems with people creating new lines to get around the tech, or modifying the tech to make it more rideable.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

007 said:


> Two examples from my area . . .
> 
> The original route is to the left. There was a very challenging ledge to climb up, at least 20" with a narrow slot in the middle. It was very challenging, but absolutely rideable. Folks built themselves a ramp to the left, but even that was apparently not enough because someone came along and added the cut to the right
> 
> Here's another ledge that is challenging but rideable. People keep building this ramp, and its quite small now, but I've seen it much larger and in the middle of the trail, instead of off to the side as it is now. You might say "what's the big deal, you can still ride the challenging section and drop the ledge if you want." The problem is that it sends the message that its okay to do this and they will start cropping up in other parts of the


Southwest Ridge ? I see it everywhere in Vegas, but we do have a good group of dedicated people who remove the crap pretty quick


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

I think the whole mentality of the sport is leaning towards modifying trails so they are flowy and non-technical. I remember several years ago I was doing an extremely technical rocky race in Kerville, I pre-rode the course several times and literally gave up on 3 sections, I could CX them and run with my bike far faster that I would ever be able to ride them, but about half the normal field didn't show up at all because it was "too technical", not my words... The entire sport is heading towards wide smooth trails without major rocks or technical features from what I've been observing since I started riding in the early 90's.

+1 on the cutting corner comment as well. There was a video posted here on MTBR a few weeks ago of some very good pro riders doing some high alpine downhill in Colorado, but they probably cut 100 corners in a single mile of riding. I think the video was shortly after taken down, but when pros are posting videos like this it just vindicates bad biking behavior for newer and other riders who look up to their skill and leadership in the sport.

I don't use Strava much so I'm just assuming it's causing people to want to keep pace no matter the consequences... I've seen the same thing from road converted mountain bikers well before Strava, but anything that causes riders to want to maintain some sort of pace at all costs I imagine would contribute to the further modification and anti-technical terrain mentality.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I'll agree that a fair number of "shredit" videos tend to glorify poor trail behavior. I've seen quite a few where the rider takes some random alt line that's not part of the trail. Sometimes it's corner cutting. Sometimes it's going off trail to find a jump. Sometimes it's so they can find some loose dirt/leaves so they can break the rear wheel loose and get some slow-mo roosting.

That ends up encouraging other, less-skilled riders to attempt the same things on their own trails. Maybe the vids were done on private property where just about anything goes, or a bike park with a maintenance budget to address issues caused by riding that way. But most riders don't have access to that kind of thing, and ride on public land with land managers that have a closer eye on resource protection, and where that kind of riding is NOT okay.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I agree this sanitation of trails is way out of hand. Here's an example of what I came across. The first video I had no idea what was in store for this section. I obviously videoed it because it was a fun challenging section. I'm glad I did for comparison. It was all back filled in and made into a smooth non challenging wheelchair ramp.

Different angle view but same section in both videos. Look closely to the landscape timber area for comparison.

*Before:* Devils Backbone #19 Video - Pinkbike

*After:* How to ruin a trail. Video - Pinkbike

The sad part about this sanitation is it was done supposedly by professional trail maintenance people. There's a difference between maintenance and changing sections to make it easy for all. If you have a hard time riding a section then hike a bike it. Eventually you may get good enough to ride it.


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## noose (Feb 11, 2004)

Agreed! I won't even move broken branches off trails. Also, If i wanted smooth flowy wide trails I would ride a gravel grinder instead of an all mountain rig. If your modding trails to improve Strava times go ride the plethora of xc non-tech trails that already exist.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

007 said:


> Two examples from my area . . .
> 
> The original route is to the left. There was a very challenging ledge to climb up, at least 20" with a narrow slot in the middle. It was very challenging, but absolutely rideable. Folks built themselves a ramp to the left, but even that was apparently not enough because someone came along and added the cut to the right.
> 
> View attachment 1108547


I'm a little confused. So by someone adding the easier section to the right does that mean you can't ride the more challenging one to the left?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

smokersteve said:


> I'm a little confused. So by someone adding the easier section to the right does that mean you can't ride the more challenging one to the left?


Get with the program. We as trail users DO NOT have the right to alter the trail, or build cheater routes PERIOD.


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Get with the program. We as trail users DO NOT have the right to alter the trail, or build cheater routes PERIOD.


Who altered that trail? I don't know - do you?

I'm new to mtb. I've never altered a trail but with my limited abilities I would have taken the trail to the right


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## Jukas (Mar 30, 2016)

Sadly it's not just mtbers doing this. My last ride as I was on my way to the out of the park downhill I came across a horse tethered to a tree. I finally spotted the rider 10-15' away with a shovel and a saw. He was cutting back tree branches. When I asked him what he was doing he told me "making a mountain bike trail into a horse trail" up until that point I hadn't even seen the entrance to the single track poach trail he was talking about. I can only hope karma gets him a $400 ticket.

Couple rides before that there's a small section of trail that is a rock ledge about 14" high at a 45-60deg angle that stretches across about 3/4 of the (legal) trail. At that height and angle It was already highly rideable as it was basically a gentle slope, all you had to do was barely unweight your front and you could climb it with almost zero thought. Lo and behold someone pulled out one of the rocks and then packed in a ramp of dirt. There was already an easier line to the far right and now we have a channel for erosion where the rock used to be.

On another trail there's a section that has some step up rocks. It's pretty chunky and because the natural line goes right through a V in the rocks it's quite technical. I make it through more often than not, but it's never a guarantee. In the existing trail there was a secondary line that is still a climb and quite rough but not as hard as the middle line. Over the past season I've seen an alt line get opened on the left, then seen stick barricades built over that alt line then seen stick barricades built over the middle line.

I don't understand why people do it.. they buy 4k+ bikes and then what, want to ride it only on fireroads? If I can't make a section, I walk it, and try again another day or I session it until I can make it if I have the time and am feeling stubborn. I hate fireroads or riding any trail that is so dumbed down it's boring, and my fear is in 10 years when my Son is old enough to be out there ripping that's all there's going to be for him outside of bike parks.


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## Jukas (Mar 30, 2016)

smokersteve said:


> Who altered that trail? I don't know - do you?
> 
> I'm new to mtb. I've never altered a trail but with my limited abilities I would have taken the trail to the right


I think the point you're missing is this. Had the trail to the right not existed and you didn't feel you could make the step up on the left would you A) Have walked it and kept going? B) ridding around it to the right?

A is the answer the OP and most of the posters here feel is right. B is the answer that is part of the problem.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> The sad part about this sanitation is it was done supposedly by professional trail maintenance people. There's a difference between maintenance and changing sections to make it easy for all. If you have a hard time riding a section then hike a bike it. Eventually you may get good enough to ride it.


Yep. Professional trail builders are responsible for all of the sanitization around me. Some of it is legitimately needed because sections are unsustainable, but I see a lot of "tripping hazards" being cut out or filled in.


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

Jukas said:


> I think the point you're missing is this. Had the trail to the right not existed and you didn't feel you could make the step up on the left would you A) Have walked it and kept going? B) ridding around it to the right?
> 
> A is the answer the OP and most of the posters here feel is right. B is the answer that is part of the problem.


In my area I would have no choice but to answer A. walked it and kept going.
I don't live in the dessert so there would be trees to the right of the trail


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

jestep said:


> I think the whole mentality of the sport is leaning towards modifying trails so they are flowy and non-technical. I remember several years ago I was doing an extremely technical rocky race in Kerville, I pre-rode the course several times and literally gave up on 3 sections, I could CX them and run with my bike far faster that I would ever be able to ride them, but about half the normal field didn't show up at all because it was "too technical", not my words... The entire sport is heading towards wide smooth trails without major rocks or technical features from what I've been observing since I started riding in the early 90'
> 
> And remember the bike you had in the 90's. Our bikes have come so far and our trails are getting easier. Maybe we should blame ourselves for encouraging new users.
> I don't use Strava but I am a lap time watcher. I ride the corners, and am polite to other users. Slowing down for a fellow trail user is more important than a PB.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Before and after. I chucked that fill in rock over a ledge. The root is the line.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lone Rager said:


> Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.


Yep, to be a purist one should avoid trails altogether.

It's hard for me to relate because no one really builds mtb "features" around here, the most challenging ones are either natural (rock) or caused by erosion. Features get sanitized but time and weather fix them again.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

I think this is even worse.

Opinion: How NOT to Reroute a Trail | Singletracks Mountain Bike News


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Lone Rager said:


> Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.





J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, to be a purist one should avoid trails altogether.
> 
> It's hard for me to relate because no one really builds mtb "features" around here, the most challenging ones are either natural (rock) or caused by erosion. Features get sanitized but time and weather fix them again.


I having a hard time getting on board here

A "purist" in a mountain bike format. Really? A purist in a mountain bike view are trails that follow the lands natural flow. Not trails that are altered to make easier for those not capable to clean them. I am far from cleaning all of my local technical sections. But I find it challenging to try them over and over until I can clean them. Then it's a matter of being diligent in practicing to clean them.

*A hiker can hike, walk, run over any section we ride. Depending on fitness level of course. Why should we bow down to trail maintenance workers who conform the trails to conform to all trail users and fitness levels?*

It's a natural wilderness area, treat it as such.

Here's what's missing > *Hike-O-Bike*

Give it a try [not to those I replied to] some time. It makes this sport much more enjoyable knowing you have a technical section just waiting for you to clean.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I having a hard time getting on board here
> 
> A "purist" in a mountain bike format. Really? A purist in a mountain bike view are trails that follow the lands natural flow. Not trails that are altered to make easier for those not capable to clean them.


I was just half-joking. The other half was just saying that by nature all trails make it easier to traverse natural terrain.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Forster said:


> Just spent 6 weeks on the eastern slope and wouldn't dream of "adjusting" a trail. I guess some folks just want to ride the same boring crap they have at home so they recreate it where ever they go. You'll find them eating at McDonalds all over the world.


Nice analogy.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

Trust me - the message IS getting out about sanitization. I am an official trailbuilder who built and now maintains a trail system deliberately designed to be flow in an area where every other trail is naturally all oldschool Appalachian rocks and roots.

I get minor grief from riders constantly while doing weekly official maintenance on a trail specifically designed for a smooth claybased tread. So the good news is people out there DO care.


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

Lone Rager said:


> Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.


That's true


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Clayncedar said:


> Trust me - the message IS getting out about sanitization. I am an official trailbuilder who built and now maintains a trail system deliberately designed to be flow in an area where every other trail is naturally all oldschool Appalachian rocks and roots.
> 
> I get minor grief from riders constantly while doing weekly official maintenance on a trail specifically designed for a smooth claybased tread. So the good news is people out there DO care.


My knee-jerk reaction is that this is part of the problem . . . folks love the smooth "flow" trails. And I'm one of them, no doubt. On the one hand, I think part of the problem is that people want to recreate this "flow" experience everywhere they ride, so they simplify the other trails they ride to try and achieve that same type of trail. On the other hand, one could view the existence of a "flow" trail as the place to satisfy those high speed urges in the hopes that they'll leave the rest of the trail network alone. Is this wishful thinking? I dunno, maybe . . .

At the end of the day, what it boils down to is respect for the trails, the work of the trail builders, and other riders. We as a community need to make sanitizing trails as taboo as it is to ride after a rain and during the spring thaws (which seems basically universal knowledge).

Clean the trails . . . . don't sanitize them. Spread the word!


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

The bike industry could do us all a big favor by including with every new bike a flyer explaining trail ettiquete to new riders.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

jeffw-13 said:


> The bike industry could do us all a big favor by including with every new bike a flyer explaining trail ettiquete to new riders.


That's a great idea, better yet stamp it backwards on their forehead so every time they look in the mirror they have to live it.

Just saying, how often does a trail ettequette thread get started around here only to be inundated with replies of riders that have problems following these basic rules.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

007 said:


> Two examples from my area . . .
> 
> The original route is to the left. There was a very challenging ledge to climb up, at least 20" with a narrow slot in the middle. It was very challenging, but absolutely rideable. Folks built themselves a ramp to the left, but even that was apparently not enough because someone came along and added the cut to the right.
> 
> ...


Your examples here are not of sanitization, they are cheater lines. As long as the challenging lines remain, just ignore the cheater lines.

When someone comes along and dismantles/simplifies an original line that was challenging, that's the time to get pissed off.


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

Hawg said:


> Your examples here are not of sanitization, they are cheater lines. As long as the challenging lines remain, just ignore the cheater lines.
> 
> When someone comes along and dismantles/simplifies an original line that was challenging, that's the time to get pissed off.


That sounds logical to me


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

I am surprised nobody yet mentioned this thread from the Nor Cal forum:

http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/saratoga-gap-singletrack-paved-sanitized-1027970.html

Local open space admin had singletrack sanitized. It is bad enough when other riders wimp-out and make ride-arounds or sanitize a trail feature...absolute hell when the local land manager does it.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Hawg said:


> Your examples here are not of sanitization, they are cheater lines. As long as the challenging lines remain, just ignore the cheater lines.
> 
> When someone comes along and dismantles/simplifies an original line that was challenging, that's the time to get pissed off.


But it is the ones that make the cheater lines cause us to loose our access to the trails when the land owners close the trail head for altering the trails.


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## 7daysaweek (May 7, 2008)

Jukas said:


> I think the point you're missing is this. Had the trail to the right not existed and you didn't feel you could make the step up on the left would you A) Have walked it and kept going? B) ridding around it to the right?
> 
> A is the answer the OP and most of the posters here feel is right. B is the answer that is part of the problem.


I kinda see it from both sides in this one particular instance. There are several places around here where gap jumps and larger features are given ride-arounds. Maybe this particular feature isn't large/challenging enough to warrant one but if there's a built ride around I see that very differently from someone building up a ledge or modifying the only trail to make it easier.

Overall I don't like the idea of sanitizing trails but ride-arounds/alternate routes for some features aren't necessarily a bad thing. Besides there are some features (gaps and skinnies around here) that some folks just aren't going to ride. It's not a skill thing, the risk-reward just isn't right for them for certain features so ride arounds are built into the trail. I don't have a problem with that in SOME cases when the original feature is left alone.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> Your examples here are not of sanitization, they are cheater lines. As long as the challenging lines remain, just ignore the cheater lines.
> 
> When someone comes along and dismantles/simplifies an original line that was challenging, that's the time to get pissed off.


I couldn't disagree more. Any alterations of any trail even building cheater lines is strictly a rogue act and that persons rider card revoked. A suspension of sorts from riding for a few months. Second conviction the riders bike should be confiscated.



Bokchoicowboy said:


> I am surprised nobody yet mentioned this thread from the Nor Cal forum:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/saratoga-gap-singletrack-paved-sanitized-1027970.html
> 
> Local open space admin had singletrack sanitized. It is bad enough when other riders wimp-out and make ride-arounds or sanitize a trail feature...absolute hell when the local land manager does it.


Or this thread from Passion > http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/sanitization-gone-too-far-1026324.html


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

Lone Rager said:


> Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.


I agree and our suspension and plus/fat bikes and tires are basically instant hand trail sanitizer. Sanitization is really a grey area as everyone has a different threshold for how far the sanitization goes, but it is all sanitization in a way.

I personally like a variety of trails and they all have their place, but at the same time, as adults we all have to understand that the world doesn't cater to minorities and as trail systems get popular, they usually tend to be softened a bit to cater to whoever uses the trails the most, which is almost never skilled riders.

Luckily a variety of trails are being built all over the place so most of us can just move on to another area to get the style of trail you want. Biking has never been better due to amount and variety of trails.


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

I understand not wanting people to modify features, thats stupid. But why do people get so butthurt when theres an alternate route around a feature for less skilled riders? Its not hurting the hard feature, or forcing you to take the easy way, its just another option.


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## 779334 (Oct 10, 2014)

I've seen some local corner cutting, not pretty.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

AshevilleMTB said:


> I've seen some local corner cutting, not pretty.


Like a birthday cake, it's just wrong.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

deke505 said:


> But it is the ones that make the cheater lines cause us to loose our access to the trails when the land owners close the trail head for altering the trails.


Make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability and they won't need to make cheater lines. Who's the final authority? If you own the land, then you are. If you don't, what establishes you as the arbiter of what or what isn't appropriate as far as the difficult of the trail?

If I happen to be the first to build a trail, I'd likely make it suitable for me, not for more skilled or less skilled riders. Would I get annoyed if someone made it easier, or added obstacles to make it more difficult? Perhaps, but if it's not my land it's not my call.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Or, people can ride trails that match their ability level or they can accept the fact that the trail they are riding will present some challenges. Challenges that will make them a better rider. They do not get to ride off trail to create a cheater line or stop and spend 15 minutes piling up rocks so they can "clear" a feature. Your post is hypocritical. If you didn't build the trail or own the land, what gives you the right to circumvent a feature in any way? We ALL have a responsibility to be stewards of the trails. If you see a cheater line developing that you know shouldn't be there, take a moment to stop and block it off. Same goes for any other trail "fix".


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

Lone Rager said:


> Any trail is a "sanitization" of the land and terrain that was there before there was a trail.


that is the most correct statement


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

I encourage challenging natural features, but man-made features like skinnies or huge log piles I don't agree with having to ride over. I like the fitness and balance requirements of tough climbs and ledges, but when I have to risk my health (or my bikes health) going up and over something un-natural and tall enough for gravity to have an impact, then there should be a ride around option in my opinion. What is "right" is only the opinion of the person thinking about it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Bottom Line: Leave the trails as they are. You don't have the right to alter them. If you are part of a trail maintenance team. Encourage them to keep the trail as natural as possible.

Problem is, there's too many new comers to the sport that see hard challenging sections as a big obstacle. Stop being lazy and If you are afraid or are not skilled enough yet, get off your bike and carry it or push through the challenging section. It's called HAB [hike A biking] it's as old as this fine sport you enjoy. Stop being an incinciderate person to this sport and changing trails to your liking. Others enjoy the challenge. Cheater lines are worse than altering the original trail. They're both wrong in the eyes of trail trail etiquette and always has been. If you can't follow the long known rules of trail etiquette take up another sport.


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

Lone Rager said:


> Make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability and they won't need to make cheater lines. Who's the final authority? If you own the land, then you are. If you don't, what establishes you as the arbiter of what or what isn't appropriate as far as the difficult of the trail?


Your last sentence is really the meat of the discussion here. If trails are made from the start in one manner, nobody is arguing with that. It's existing trails that are being modified just to be smoother or faster or wider or really any reason at all, by arbitrary riders, that's the biggest concern to most of us.

I completely disagree with your first sentence though. It's a rider's obligation to ride the trail if they can and walk sections of it if necessary. Riding around obstacles and creating a secondary trail because one can't make it on the bike but doesn't want to walk, is ethically unacceptable. Also, just as you pointed out, it's not the initial trail builder's responsibility to pander to beginner or higher level riders. Riders need to respect the trail as it is and unless they're on a sanctioned trail building crew, or there's some extraordinary circumstance like a rock slide or downed tree, and even then it's questionable IMO, they shouldn't be riding off trail or modifying it in any way.


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## tiz12 (Aug 10, 2016)

Lone Rager said:


> Make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability and they won't need to make cheater lines. Who's the final authority? If you own the land, then you are. If you don't, what establishes you as the arbiter of what or what isn't appropriate as far as the difficult of the trail?


I don't get this at all. I think you need to take into consideration the trail builders who have spent countless hours making the actual trail, I'm sure they aren't going to be happy to have someone come and add/change lines and features they find too difficult. Not to mention actually getting the trail sanctioned in the first place, which those with the vision often put in many man hours to do while working with the landowner/body.

This sport needs to keep progressing, with bikes that are as capable as they are now, why would we "make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability"?

Just because one doesn't own the land that the trail is located on, doesn't mean it's okay for someone passing through to change the trail for the worse. As has been said by others, if you can't ride it, go and ride somewhere easier - it's as simple as that.

It's this kind of mentality that will continue dumbing down trails until they're smooth simplistic paths, (which people will still insist they need their 160mm "Enduro" machine to ride).

*Edit - as an afterthought, maybe those that want to tarnish someone's trail with their own shitty lines and alterations should be spending some time on the shovel making trails to their own skill level? Too much take, not enough give.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bottom Line: Leave the trails as they are. You don't have the right to alter them.


If a storm rolls a boulder onto a trail or knocks a tree over one then anyone has a right to move it even if it does make for a fun diversion for some. Maintenance or sanitation?

Myself I'm too lazy either way to do any sanitizing or de-sanitizing, I just ride what's in front of me and move on.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> If a storm rolls a boulder onto a trail or knocks a tree over one then anyone has a right to move it even if it does make for a fun diversion for some. Maintenance or sanitation?
> 
> Myself I'm too lazy either way to do any sanitizing or de-sanitizing, I just ride what's in front of me and move on.


This I agree with and I'm the same way. I look at most natural new obstacles as a new challenge.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Lone Rager said:


> Make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability and they won't need to make cheater lines. Who's the final authority? If you own the land, then you are. If you don't, what establishes you as the arbiter of what or what isn't appropriate as far as the difficult of the trail?
> 
> If I happen to be the first to build a trail, I'd likely make it suitable for me, not for more skilled or less skilled riders. Would I get annoyed if someone made it easier, or added obstacles to make it more difficult? Perhaps, but if it's not my land it's not my call.


 Couple o thoughts here. When you ski, do you go down the black diamond trail and level out all the big moguls? Or maybe ride a green or blue to what skill level you are confident in? Boots on the trails get to vote. Sometimes trail layouts are not clear to the user why they are taken. Might be conservation or vegetation issues, water shed, vernal pools, historic or tribal issues, land border or neighbor issues. Here in MA where I build, often routes are flagged by us or the land manager. Many times the trail goes over rocks( everywhere) for a more sustainable build. Most of the time the trail is just a general idea and we get to do all the details as it comes to. Sometimes we incorporate a tech feature, sometimes with a place for a second line or roll, not always. Depends on the layout. time frame, and rocks. Always rocks. Every biker come with a hiker. At my local SF, I end up not cleaning a line or 2 every ride. But on every group ride, usually someone makes the line. Every time. Build to the least common denominator? Never. How will a new rider progress if there are only easy trails? The answer is to ( try) to build a variety of trails on the difficulty level. Not always possible to do with all our rocks and terrain. And some lines are meant to be only cleaned by the 1%. I'm ok with that. Compare to an off piste chute with some really tight turns and a 40 ft drop. And food for thought. Ride the whole trail, then ride it the other direction, new lines, new trail, new plan.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2016)

Silentfoe said:


> Or, people can ride trails that match their ability level or they can accept the fact that the trail they are riding will present some challenges. Challenges that will make them a better rider. They do not get to ride off trail to create a cheater line or stop and spend 15 minutes piling up rocks so they can "clear" a feature. Your post is hypocritical. If you didn't build the trail or own the land, what gives you the right to circumvent a feature in any way? We ALL have a responsibility to be stewards of the trails. If you see a cheater line developing that you know shouldn't be there, take a moment to stop and block it off. Same goes for any other trail "fix".


 Wait, ride trails that match our skills? How can I favorably compare myself (and my strava) to better riders. That's just crazy.


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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

Where is this trail etiquette book people keep talking about?


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

nothing is more damaging to trails than safety complaints, fighting brief unobtrusive cheater lines around dangerous drops is just shooting yourself in the foot and begging for real sanitation


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Lone Rager said:


> Make easier trails that are more inclusive of riders of lesser ability


Lets make trails for everyone! Grade everything, make it 10 ft wide, remove all those dangerous rocks and trees, put in lifts... it'll be great!


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

EatsDirt said:


> Lets make trails for everyone! Grade everything, make it 10 ft wide, remove all those dangerous rocks and trees, put in lifts... it'll be great!


I also vote that we install mini jet rockets onto our mountain bikes so that we can go really, really fast uphill and down.


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## BmoreKen (Sep 27, 2004)

Be happy you have trails. Try riding rigid. If that isn't enough, ride a BMX bike. Don't get me wrong I u derstand the same stuff happens at my local trails but really, bikes today make it too easy. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

smokersteve said:


> Where is this trail etiquette book people keep talking about?


I figured it was common sense...

But, I realize we have signs for things like instructing people to pick up their trash because it's not so obvious that it shouldn't be left on the ground. So, maybe I'm giving too much credit that people aren't so entitled they think they deserve to change a trail to fit how they want to ride it, just because they're gracing it with their presence.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Hawg said:


> I also vote that we install mini jet rockets onto our mountain bikes so that we can go really, really fast uphill and down.


can't wait till these are invented


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## shaynec (Jul 22, 2016)

http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/cheater-line-shaming-thread-1017288.html

I usually grab a beer before I re-read it.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

A local place to me a guy got caught breaking the tops of the rocks off with a sledgehammer cause he was hitting his pedals on them. Same place they put in a new trail to bypass a trail that was there forever but the trail was to hard so they cut the roots off the grown tree and dug them out. Not little roots but large supporting roots off the side of a tree growing out a hill. They put a ton of work into building a flowy section in a area not supportive of it and now its slowly falling apart and doesn't drain properly.


Someone keeps tearing apart of log rides built off the side of trails though. Literally at the point where we put harder options off to the sides and they still get torn down:madman:


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2016)

smokersteve said:


> Where is this trail etiquette book people keep talking about?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

smokersteve said:


> Where is this trail etiquette book people keep talking about?


http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-co...-real-world-trail-etiquette-video-849356.html


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## tiz12 (Aug 10, 2016)

dirtrider76 said:


> A local place to me a guy got caught breaking the tops of the rocks off with a sledgehammer cause he was hitting his pedals on them. Same place they put in a new trail to bypass a trail that was there forever but the trail was to hard so they cut the roots off the grown tree and dug them out. Not little roots but large supporting roots off the side of a tree growing out a hill. They put a ton of work into building a flowy section in a area not supportive of it and now its slowly falling apart and doesn't drain properly.


Now that's just sacrilegious. He probably should have his bike confiscated and be sent to the naughty corner for a while.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

terrasmak said:


> Southwest Ridge ? I see it everywhere in Vegas, but we do have a good group of dedicated people who remove the crap pretty quick


Nope, this was at BBT (though I've seen it at SWR too). I'm trilled to know that there are others who also remove this crap when they see it.



deke505 said:


> But it is the ones that make the cheater lines cause us to loose our access to the trails when the land owners close the trail head for altering the trails.


For each and every single comment in here about "what harm is a cheater line?" ^^^THIS is the reason. Stated clearly and concisely in the original post. When cheater lines get built, the trail bed widens beyond the intended - and in MANY instances - agreed upon, route. Too many of these violations and land managers revoke access. I have seen this happen first hand, and know land managers who walk trails to look for these new lines and routes. They WILL close trails if things are being added without permission. Plain and simple.



Hawg said:


> Your examples here are not of sanitization, they are cheater lines. As long as the challenging lines remain, just ignore the cheater lines.
> 
> When someone comes along and dismantles/simplifies an original line that was challenging, that's the time to get pissed off.


Sorry my friend, but I disagree with you completely. Both pictures depict intentional efforts to build a feature with the sole purpose of simplifying the original line. Yes, there remains a challenging line, but this new line was not part of the original route . . . I then will refer you back to the point above.



idividebyzero said:


> I understand not wanting people to modify features, thats stupid. But why do people get so butthurt when theres an alternate route around a feature for less skilled riders? Its not hurting the hard feature, or forcing you to take the easy way, its just another option.


See above. This has been clearly stated several times now.



jestep said:


> . . . It's existing trails that are being modified just to be smoother or faster or wider or really any reason at all, by arbitrary riders, that's the biggest concern to most of us . . . it's not the initial trail builder's responsibility to pander to beginner or higher level riders . . . *Riders need to respect the trail as it is* . . . and unless they're on a sanctioned trail building crew, or there's some extraordinary circumstance like a rock slide or downed tree, and even then it's questionable IMO, they shouldn't be riding off trail or modifying it in any way.


Couldn't agree with you more.



idividebyzero said:


> nothing is more damaging to trails than safety complaints, fighting brief unobtrusive cheater lines around dangerous drops is just shooting yourself in the foot and begging for real sanitation


I can't believe that someone would actually try and argue the safety angle, that I'm actually wondering if I'm being trolled . . . but in the off chance that you're serious, EVERY trail on public land comes with an implicit disclaimer that you ride at your own risk. Moreover, it is the riders responsibility to ride within the limits of their abilities. And if you're riding on private land (a.k.a., poaching), then you have zero recourse.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

007 said:


> I can't believe that someone would actually try and argue the safety angle, that I'm actually wondering if I'm being trolled . . . but in the off chance that you're serious, EVERY trail on public land comes with an implicit disclaimer that you ride at your own risk. Moreover, it is the riders responsibility to ride within the limits of their abilities. And if you're riding on private land (a.k.a., poaching), then you have zero recourse.


Sadly, he was very right that safety issues can sometimes result in lost access. There is no implicit disclaimer that you ride at your own risk. The government gets sued and loses when lawyers can show any kind of negligence on their part.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Maybe a true mountain biker is defined as one who owns the land where trails are built and therefore, has no fear of having them closed down due to alterations.

So, everyone get out there and start buying up all the land. 

Anyway, I still disagree about the true meaning of sanitizing in this case. I think of this more as a bypass or a passing lane.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> Anyway, I still disagree about the true meaning of sanitizing in this case. I think of this more as a bypass or a passing lane.


It's a cheater line built by a self righteous ass hat.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hawg said:


> Anyway, I still disagree about the true meaning of sanitizing in this case. I think of this more as a bypass or a passing lane.


A bypass, passing lane, cut, etc. are all the same thing: A trail modification with the intent of creating an alternative that is easier than the original, intended route.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

007 said:


> A bypass, passing lane, cut, etc. are all the same thing: A trail modification with the intent of creating an alternative that is easier than the original, intended route.


But do not see anything removed, only something added. That means that the gnar is still there to rumble through/up/over/drop down.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hawg said:


> But do not see anything removed, only something added. That means that the gnar is still there to rumble through/up/over/drop down.


They built themselves a ramp. Would you still feel the same if it were a wooden structure?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> But do not see anything removed, only something added. That means that the gnar is still there to rumble through/up/over/drop down.


Yes, but the modifier has no right to alter the trail in any way. That goes for building a new trail [cheater line] around a difficult section, hike around it.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

How long would we be able to hold on to the trails we have and be allowed on new ones if everyone that mountain biked altered trails to fit their inabilities?


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Steezus said:


> Sadly, he was very right that safety issues can sometimes result in lost access. There is no implicit disclaimer that you ride at your own risk. The government gets sued and loses when lawyers can show any kind of negligence on their part.


I stand corrected, it is often an _explicit_ statement:

For example, see here: https://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/st__george/recreation/trails/non-system_trails/flying_monkey.html

And here: https://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/...030.File.dat/Texas Creek Roads and Trails.pdf

And I'm certain there are others as well; these were discovered via a 5 minute search. I'm not saying that suits aren't brought and that safety concerns can't get a trail closed, but I highly doubt that its a significant contributing factor.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

BmoreKen said:


> Be happy you have trails. Try riding rigid. If that isn't enough, ride a BMX bike. Don't get me wrong I u derstand the same stuff happens at my local trails but really, bikes today make it too easy.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Wait... so modern bikes make it too easy but yet everyone should just be happy to have trails and just accept unskilled renegades making them even easier?

Ride a BMX bike?

Seriously.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

You haven't ridden a trail properly before you tried it without wheels.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

voon said:


> You haven't ridden a trail properly before you tried it without wheels.


Where I'm from we call that hiking.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

jeffw-13 said:


> Where I'm from we call that hiking.


Nah, proper wheelfree hardcore


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

voon said:


> Nah, proper wheelfree hardcore
> 
> View attachment 1108876


that landing is gonna hurt


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Yes, but the modifier has no right to alter the trail in any way. That goes for building a new trail [cheater line] around a difficult section, hike around it.


If you it was the trail builder himself who modified it? What then????


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

007 said:


> They built themselves a ramp. Would you still feel the same if it were a wooden structure?


I'd feel the same even if they contracted contracted Caltrans to build a concrete ramp with pillars AS LONG AS it did not interfere with the original technical feature/section.

Personally, I think bail out sections are a good safety option.

What if you were barreling along and something didn't feel right? There wasn't time to stop short of the feature but there was adequate time to swerve over and continue rolling down on and through via the easy line. Not only have you just saved yourself from possible bodily harm or even death (1% important), but you also saved your bike from impending damage (99% important).

So, in closing, cheater lines do serve a purpose. Speaking strictly for myself, I do not always feel confident enough to attempt every technical feature. I have two options:

1) I can dismount and carry/roll my bike down (totally killing the momentum of my ride) and possibly holding up the clan if I am in a group ride, or...

2) I can take the cheater line and carry on w/o stopping

....end, thread....


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

chazpat said:


> that landing is gonna hurt


Not if you never land...


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

007 said:


> Nope, this was at BBT (though I've seen it at SWR too). I'm trilled to know that there are others who also remove this crap when they see it.


They're effectively the same place, and the same thing has happened to both.

This is a rant:

The original trails there were illegal, but professionally built. They were good, the original loop around SW Ridge was challenging and fun, although a little short. Apparently too challenging for some, since they started creating 3-foot wide freeways all around the Mesa because they didn't want to ride up the challenging, but relatively short, climb again. Same for some of Bears Best, there's some good trails out there, but a lot that isn't. The problem is that since it's a free-for-all, people got the idea that they can be legendary trail builders as well. Now they're building (crap trails) inside the boundary of the National Conservation Area which actually bothers the powers that be at the BLM. They were willing to look the other way when it comes to most of the BLM land, but the NCA is a big no-no. Did you guys want to work with the BLM at some point? Making yourself out to be the enemy isn't the way to do it.

We have so many (legal) trails around Vegas, with so much variety, and much better scenery...I just don't see the point. If you don't like what you see going on there, vote with your feet and go.somewhere.better.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Hawg said:


> I'd feel the same even if they contracted contracted Caltrans to build a concrete ramp with pillars AS LONG AS it did not interfere with the original technical feature/section.
> 
> Personally, I think bail out sections are a good safety option.
> 
> ...


So in this line of thinking every technical section on every trail should have a cheater line built along side of it for those without balls to try it or humility to get off the bike and hike 50' to get around it.

I'm not buying what you're selling. ut:


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Hawg said:


> So, in closing, cheater lines do serve a purpose.


The more cheater lines pop up, the higher likelihood people start taking the challenging stuff out.

What do you think of that dumbing-down of the only fairly difficult little rock section when climbing Space?


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

Hawg said:


> 1) I can dismount and carry/roll my bike down (totally killing the momentum of my ride) and possibly holding up the clan if I am in a group ride, or...


You perfectly summarized my disdain for the cadence mentality of almost all public group rides, as well as the strava effect described in several posts, the insufferable burden of having to stop or slow down...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
1) I can dismount and carry/roll my bike down (totally killing the momentum of my ride) and possibly holding up the clan if I am in a group ride, or...



jestep said:


> You perfectly summarized my disdain for the cadence mentality of almost all public group rides, as well as the strava effect described in several posts, the insufferable burden of having to stop or slow down...


Sorry, but that's a selfish way of thinking. We as trail users do not have the right to alter any trail. Whether it be creating easier routes [cheater routes] or building more difficult challenging features. Doing so only hurts our sport in the eyes of other trail users. It basically makes us look like self righteous ass hats. If all mtbrs did this how long would it be until mtbrs were banned from all trails? Answer: Not long.


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

I think you may have interpreted my post the opposite of what was intended. Group rides where members don't want to stop or slow down are part of the problem that causes slower riders to ride around obstacles instead of dismounting and walking or carrying their bike. Almost every group ride I've ever been on no matter the intended skill level is run like this. Even if they're not super fast, they rarely ride in a manner that finds stopping acceptable.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

jestep said:


> I think you may have interpreted my post the opposite of what was intended. Group rides where members don't want to stop or slow down are part of the problem that causes slower riders to ride around obstacles instead of dismounting and walking or carrying their bike. Almost every group ride I've ever been on no matter the intended skill level is run like this. Even if they're not super fast, they rarely ride in a manner that finds stopping acceptable.


I understand the frustration. Every rider no matter of skill level needs to conform to the trail and the riders with them. If an obstacle comes up where a group of slower riders stop to walk, the faster riders coming up on them need to adhere to the situation. I for one find group rides more of a pain in the butt than they're worth. Too many variables in skill level and fitness.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Ok Picard, let's remain focused.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I for one find group rides more of a pain in the butt than they're worth..


Bingo. I much prefer to ride with one or two close riding buddies over a group. But, I completely understand those that prefer the group thingy. Whatever floats yer boat.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

My chapter and others host many group rides. Bigger than say 10 or 12 we usually split up. Ride for 15 minutes, front group goes one direction, the back group goes another. Don't your groups ever session a tech section?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

leeboh said:


> My chapter and others host many group rides. Bigger than say 10 or 12 we usually split up. Ride for 15 minutes, front group goes one direction, the back group goes another. Don't your groups ever session a tech section?


So one large group goes one way while another large group goes the opposite way. So I'm guessing when they meet in the middle or there abouts it's a game of head on collision chicken, no?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Don't worry - we're from a place where people can figure out solutions to that sort of stuff. Amazing, I know...

:thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Don't you have an air shock pump / tire pump shock to go calibrate?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Sanitizing trails started the 2nd day after mountain biking was invented. 

On the 3rd day people started complaining about it.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Like a birthday cake, it's just wrong.


Strava not helping with cheater lines either.....


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Jukas said:


> I think the point you're missing is this. Had the trail to the right not existed and you didn't feel you could make the step up on the left would you A) Have walked it and kept going? B) ridding around it to the right?
> 
> A is the answer the OP and most of the posters here feel is right. B is the answer that is part of the problem.


How about we ask the very skilled riders out there. Did you ever modify a section cause you found it was too easy for you, even if it was originally a difficult section for an intermediate rider?

Maybe you should also add option C : would have ridden the technical (original) trail, hurt yourself and never would have returned to MTB'ing. Sold the bike and decided to take painting class instead.....

I never modified a trail either but at 49 years old , and new to the sport, if it wasn't for a few trail mods, I probably would have given up on MTB. To be honest , the first impression I had when I started going in single tracks was that these trails were made by high level riders that do not want slower riders to come back, so that they can ride as hard as they can without encountering slow traffic. 
We also see this in the trails I ride in Enduro Cross ( motocross) . I've been riding pretty much all my life and I thought it was a good thing their was the option to detour the very high level obstacles. Riders with less skills could still come with us and not get hurt. At the end of the day , everyone was happy. Yes , those trails became more accessible for beginners and when we encountered slower traffic, we stopped , had a nice chat and always offered them to ride with us (maybe an opportunity to ride with better riders).

It's obvious that it is a bad thing if everyone would start modifiying trails but thats not what is happenning here. Trails are beeing adapted to a new reality that population is getting older and old farts like me are picking up this sport at a later age. Maybe , because of trail sanitization biginners will not sell their bikes after 1 or 2 rides.

Isn't that what is great about MTB? Different level riders can ride together . Skilled riders can always use the very technical route and the novice can watch you do it (in admiration) , while they take the "OPTION" and all enjoy a nice cold beer at the end of the day?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mountain biking was idyllic bs (before strava), like chilling out in Mayberry. Damn you strava!!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So one large group goes one way while another large group goes the opposite way. So I'm guessing when they meet in the middle or there abouts it's a game of head on collision chicken, no?


 35 plus miles of trails with 4 different riding areas, no issues. Unless one group gets back to the coolers before me.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Giodog2000 said:


> How about we ask the very skilled riders out there. Did you ever modify a section cause you found it was too easy for you, even if it was originally a difficult section for an intermediate rider?
> 
> Maybe you should also add option C : would have ridden the technical (original) trail, hurt yourself and never would have returned to MTB'ing. Sold the bike and decided to take painting class instead.....
> 
> ...


 So, new rider, riding the easier trails I would assume? Everyone starts out as a beginner. And I walked lots of sections. Lots. As a newbie. New Reality? If the trail is too hard, start with a hilly dirt road, mellow singletrack or such. Same with a downhill ski area, mt bike park, skate board or bmx place. Can't clean a section? Watch someone else's line, practice, session that line and try it again. Ride it the other direction. Works for me. Too easy a section? Just keep pedaling, more rocks and tech around the next turn.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> Trails are beeing adapted to a new reality that population is getting older and old farts like me are picking up this sport at a later age. Maybe , because of trail sanitization biginners will not sell their bikes after 1 or 2 rides.


This sport is not supposed to be easy. There's golf for that.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Not sure where Giodog2000 is getting the idea that the population is getting older concerning mountain bikers. There are more kids mountain biking today than ever before. Contrary to what many people think, these kids are not stuck at home playing video games. I ride with one of the biggest high school teams and the things these kids can do on a bike is amazing. The future looks great for our sport. The difference between his analogy of motorbikes and mountain bikes is that you can't pick up a dirt bike and walk over a feature you can't ride. This guarantees cheater lines on EVERY dirt bike trail.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Every rock is sacred
Every root is great
When a ledge is built up
God get quite irate


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> ... I thought it was a good thing their was the option to detour the very high level obstacles....
> 
> ...biginners will not sell their bikes after 1 or 2 rides.


Thing is 'very high level obstacles' are practically non-existent on public trails. People constantly make go-arounds for (or take it upon themselves to pussify) anything they have to raise their ass an inch out of the saddle to clear, or anything that might throw off their cadence by a couple RPM. They think mountain biking should basically be road biking on dirt, and feel they should never have to get off their bikes to walk.

This is not just beginners, by any means. So many riders out there seem to think that because they've been at it a long time, their skillset is automatically to be considered 'advanced', and if there are trails or sections they can't ride with their awesome abilities, well, obviously the trail is the problem and needs to change. I gonna venture that most riders have never even ridden with someone who has true 'expert' level skills, so their perspective is way off as far as their own skill level and how that translates to local trails.


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## Quentin (Mar 30, 2008)

Is a 6" diameter tree that fell across what used to be a fast, flowing, downhill section sanitizing trails? To the guy with the technical skills to just hop the log at speed, that is sanitizing. To the guys that designed the trail in the first place with no intention of a log there, it is trail maintenance. Some things at my local trails would probably be called sanitizing when it really just replaced a section of trail that wasn't any fun. We don't have any land management or ecological concerns to deal with, so an alternative path isn't a big deal to me. 

We jokingly call one of the bypasses the Larriatric Bypass because it bypassed some difficult terrain and was made by a friend named Larry. That said, the technical section it bypassed is literally unridable if it has rained in the past 24 hrs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

So the question remains unanswered: I would bet OP and other very skilled riders have made more difficult cheat lines since . I bet more harder lines have been made VS easier cheat lines over the years. How many of you openned a new lines cause the trail was getting boring for you as your skills were getting better and better. Did it ever happen you went out of the a trail to try and make a more difficult drop off to challenge yourself or just for bragging rights? Bragging rights....isn't that what MTB is all about huh so , lets not sanitize the trails so we can keep on bragging. Really this "sanitize" , "pussify", "play golf if you can't cut it" crap is really what kills the enthousiasm of learning something new.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Bragging rights....isn't that what MTB is all about huh so , lets not sanitize the trails so we can keep on bragging.


You really don't get it, at all.

Making an existing trail easier because you lack the skill to ride it is like going out to the local basketball court and cutting all the posts down so the nets are 7' off the deck. If you can't ride what's there, and you don't have enough 'enthousiasm' to put in the time and effort to raise your skill level and/or have too much ego to get off and walk here and there, then MTB is absolutely the wrong sport for you.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> You really don't get it, at all.
> 
> Making an existing trail easier because you lack the skill to ride it is like going out to the local basketball court and cutting all the posts down so the nets are 7' off the deck. If you can't ride what's there, and you don't have enough 'enthousiasm' to put in the time and effort to raise your skill level and/or have too much ego to get off and walk here and there, then MTB is absolutely the wrong sport for you.


Trust me , I do all these things and I'm out on the trails as much as the next guy with a mission to exel and challenge myself. I consider myself as an intermetiate rider that can tackle a black trail at my own pace (just to clear things out ) But you also have it all wrong to want to add 1 foot more to that basketball posts everytime you feel it's getting too easy to dunk.... I'm only saying that I don't think there is anything wrong with bypassing hard obstacles. Every great modern builder do them intentinally. They can incorporate a huge jump with wooden ramps and will build a way out around it as part of and original design. 
Frankly , this subject comes across to me as beeing somewhat arrogant don't you think. Telling people they do not belong on a basketball court cause they can't play well enough? Telling people something is not for them just because they do not see things the same way they do?

I think OPTIONS in a trail is a good thing. Builders do them intentionally for a reason : Maybe to encourage all skill level riders to enjoy them.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Hmmm... I vaguely recall this same discussion between the Pilgrims and the local Indian tribes back in my high school history class. Unfortunately this country was founded by sanitizing trails.

John


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I always just ride (or walk) what's in front of me and accept whatever the trail brings. That said, in a perfect world, the trail builder should integrate alternate lines over very difficult obstacles that look natural and always take longer to complete than the rider choosing the hard line. Not that it's a race but the cheater (jk!!!!!) shouldn't be rewarded with a pass. 

I suppose that would trip some peoples triggers too though.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Don't worry - we're from a place where people can figure out solutions to that sort of stuff. Amazing, I know...


Besides, if someone did want to build a cheater line around all the rocks and roots, they'd find what? More rocks and roots.

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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Giodog2000 said:


> Trust me , I do all these things and I'm out on the trails as much as the next guy with a mission to exel and challenge myself. I consider myself as an intermetiate rider that can tackle a black trail at my own pace (just to clear things out ) But you also have it all wrong to want to add 1 foot more to that basketball posts everytime you feel it's getting too easy to dunk.... I'm only saying that I don't think there is anything wrong with bypassing hard obsticles. Every great modern builder do them intentinally. They can incorporate a huge jump with wooden ramps and will build a way out around it as part of and original design.
> Frankly , this subject comes across to me as beeing somewhat arrogant don't you think. Telling people they do not belong on a basketball court cause they can't play well enough? Telling people something is not for them just because they do not see things the same way they do?
> 
> I think OPTIONS in a trail is a good thing. Builders do them intentionally for a reason : Maybe to encourage all skill level riders to enjoy them.


You must be from the 'everyone gets a trophy' camp.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Telling people they do not belong on a basketball court cause they can't play well enough?


It's not that at it all, it's telling people that not being able to sink every shot doesn't mean they get to redesign the court.

If a trail was built with b-lines, great. Many of my favorite trails have incorporated them for tough obstacles. Weird thing is, even when people have been given a go-around, you'll often see that they've gone ahead and also tried to simplify the tough lines to bring them down to their skill level.

There are also many challenging trails that don't have them b-ines, and in those cases, people who are too proud or entitled to walk but also lack the skill necessary to clean the trail shouldn't be taking it on themselves to dumb the trail down, but rather riding other places that are more in line with what they're looking for. Variety, as mentioned, is a good thing.

Trail widening, braids and unsanctioned b-lines definitely detract from the experience of riding technical singetrack. Too many people these days would rather just make something easier than rise to a challenge. After 25+ years of riding, I can think of lots of spots that I have only cleaned once or twice out of many, many attempts over the years, some that I've never cleaned (or even attempted), and quite a few trails that I have never been able to ride end to end without putting a foot down. Since I have a pretty reasonable idea of my own skill level, I sure don't consider myself the ultimate decider of what's rideable or not though; there are people that can rip through all the stuff that's beyond me like they were riding down the sidewalk. I try to step up my game, or I do a little pushing, but I don't take it upon myself to change the trail (unless I built it in the first place; then I get to do what I want )


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

mattyice said:


> You must be from the 'everyone gets a trophy' camp.


See, the assumptions again and finger pointing! No I'm not from the "everyone gets a trophy" camp. I've been competitive all my life in all sports (or anything else in my life) I've always played to win but , when I loose , I really admire the ones that are better than me cause it amazes me how good someone can be at something. When I'm good at something , I want to teach them how it's done and not making it hard for them to have acces to the facilities they need to do that. Everyone knows its hard work to reach higher levels of skill , we all understand that. But some just want to have fun and not beat personal records every time they go out for a ride.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

mattyice said:


> You must be from the 'everyone gets a trophy' camp.


Yeah! You get a participation TROPHY!

I agree with you!


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> When I'm good at something , I want to teach them how it's done and not making it hard for them to have acces to the facilities they need to do that.


So, by removing the difficult features from a trail you'd somehow accomplish this?

Dumb it down and somehow that's progression?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Giodog2000 said:


> I think OPTIONS in a trail is a good thing. Builders do them intentionally for a reason : Maybe to encourage all skill level riders to enjoy them.


And we encourage others by dumbing down the trail to the lowest common denominator?



Giodog2000 said:


> Everyone knows its hard work to reach higher levels of skill , we all understand that. But some just want to have fun and not beat personal records every time they go out for a ride.


So instead of walking a section of trail that's above a given skill level, we sanitize it so everyone can ride up it?

I'm in complete disagreement of this philosophy.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> And we encourage others by dumbing down the trail to the lowest common denominator?
> 
> So instead of walking a section of trail that's above a given skill level, we sanitize it so everyone can ride up it?
> 
> I'm in complete disagreement of this philosophy.


And how are you gaining riding skills by walking a section ? I still think it's better to have the option and eventually , once you gain experience and confindance , you'll decide to take the harder line.... No? 
Guys , I agree with alot of stuff thats been said here , I just don't see whats wrong in some b-lines. At least the less skilled riders can go to more advanced trails knowing they won't hurt themselves or walking half the trail. 
When you start in this sport , it's hard enough to find "easy" single tracks to build up your skills. It's obvious enough the trails are build by very skilled riders making them hard for the regular Joe to ride them. Please don't tell me some of you are in favor of non-sanitizing the trails to keep it a niche activity? I must be wrong on this as I am on many things apparently lol

Let me share something with you guys. What I love doing when I ride is going into trails i know are a little to technical for me just to stop once in a while and watch the more skilled riders rip through them like there is no tomorrow. I get to go to spots because of those b-lines and it's more interesting for me than to walk the trails (I can walk once in a while but I wouldn't go if I had to walk half the time). I gota tell you I'm a little disapointed in the stop-sinitize mind set some of you have. It just doesn't help promoting the sport. I'm starting to believe the "Niche conspiracy" ;-)


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Quentin said:


> Is a 6" diameter tree that fell across what used to be a fast, flowing, downhill section sanitizing trails? To the guy with the technical skills to just hop the log at speed, that is sanitizing. To the guys that designed the trail in the first place with no intention of a log there, it is trail maintenance. Some things at my local trails would probably be called sanitizing when it really just replaced a section of trail that wasn't any fun. We don't have any land management or ecological concerns to deal with, so an alternative path isn't a big deal to me.
> 
> We jokingly call one of the bypasses the Larriatric Bypass because it bypassed some difficult terrain and was made by a friend named Larry. That said, the technical section it bypassed is literally unridable if it has rained in the past 24 hrs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unfun and unrideable to you. Unless you speak for everybody that rides that trail. A bypass is fine if the landowner is fine with it, and that is a much better alternative than sanitizing the existing route.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Ok, perhaps there are several philosophies being addressed here.

My term of 'sanitizing' is more related to those who approach a difficult section of trail and directly and intentionally modify that trail to 'dumb it down' to their abilities. This particular modification removes the technical element for those capable of enjoying it pre-sanitation.

On another note... bypasses I can see as acceptable based on the topography, builders intentions and sustainability. I have no problems with these 'bypasses' when they are constructed in an intentionally proper, sustainable method. My beef is when these are rouge trails that are established with little thought for water and erosion control and for the purpose of NOT having to walk the bike. When these are created to achieve a faster time through an otherwise slow section, then I have issues.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> And how are you gaining riding skills by walking a section ?
> 
> I'm starting to believe the "Niche conspiracy" ;-)


Maybe you'll get tired of walking and actually progress to riding them?

Niche Conspiracy? You sound like a guy who hasn't earned it and never will.

On a related note, I maintain 'social' trails of which many sections are on unstable soil. I see first hand the damage that lesser skilled riders do by skidding and riding the shoulder of the trail (causing erosion) because they don't have the skills to hold the correct line. I've also considered making things harder so I don't have to keep repairing the damage.

There are places/trails that you should have to earn the right to ride... and before you say it - fvck yes I feel entitled because I've put in the work both riding and digging.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

Trailbuilder here. Yeah, Stravalines and other rogue crap are annoying and I do obliterate any that begin developing since we do weekly trail maintenance. Once closed, they don't usually reopen. Our land manager fully supports this effort.

More difficult features are deliberately placed on parallel bypass trails and not the main flow trail. Only minor issues that way.

I think well-designed, well-built trail under regular maintenance probably sees somewhat less of this stuff. I wish more riders found out who their local builders are and determined what's OK or not to do to trails before altering them.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EatsDirt said:


> Maybe you'll get tired of walking and actually progress to riding them?
> 
> Niche Conspiracy? You sound like a guy who hasn't earned it and never will.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is you don't want noobs in your trails? So where exactly are we welcome? Hey buddy, stop digging if you do it only to keep it your own little niche.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Just to remind everyone...OP's picture from post #2 clearly identifies bypasses like Cleared2land points out. 
This is what you call sanitizing? 

Most of you are against that? WOW!


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## Quentin (Mar 30, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Unfun and unrideable to you. Unless you speak for everybody that rides that trail. A bypass is fine if the landowner is fine with it, and that is a much better alternative than sanitizing the existing route.


I clean that section with regularity. I ride what is in front of me; I don't build bypasses. I was using unfun and unridable as an example of something that happened at my local trails. Pretty rich when you are calling that into question when you literally have zero experience with the trails in question.

Considering that the two fastest, strongest, technically gifted guys that ride these particular trails made those decisions and do 80% of all the trail building at this particular group of trails, I'd say their judgment was pretty spot on. They built/build the trails; they get to massage them how they like, IMO. If someone disagrees, they are welcome to join in the trail building and maintenance.

These guys also go back and fix something that just doesn't work... be it water management problems or something that doesn't fit that particular trail. The first cut doesn't set the trail in stone. Sometimes iterations need to take place for the best experience. They've been refining the trails for a decade and there are plenty of great technical sections to go with the ones that test the size of your balls, so again, I trust their judgment.

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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> So what you are saying is you don't want noobs in your trails? So where exactly are we welcome? Hey buddy, stop digging if you do it only to keep it your own little niche.


Hey buddy, I'm saying I'm the ONLY ONE doing the work on these trails to keep them rideable so the noobs can fvck them up, so I can fix them again.

Where are you welcome? At an organized trail maintenance day. Pick up some tools and put in some work and perhaps have some design input... maybe you'll get a participation trophy.

Or you could just complain about how trails need to be easier for you.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EatsDirt said:


> Hey buddy, I'm saying I'm the ONLY ONE doing the work on these trails to keep them rideable so the noobs can fvck them up, so I can fix them again.
> 
> Where are you welcome? At an organized trail maintenance day. Pick up some tools and put in some work and perhaps have some design input... maybe you'll get a participation trophy.
> 
> Or you could just complain about how trails need to be easier for you.


You don't even know if I do get involved or not in trail maintenance,,, thats how arrogant you are. You don't even know my skill level and what I find easy or hard....thats how condescending you are. You demonstrate once again that your only purpose of building trails is to btch about how we don't deserve you and your trails. It's people like you I feel breathing down my neck when I go riding who make us feel we do not belong. I don't like your kind.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> your only purpose of building trails is to btch about how we don't deserve you and your trails.


Well buddy, you're painting with some pretty broad strokes yourself... and maybe you've forgotten you've offered up a little info about yourself?

Yep. I only dig to tell you all about how *****en I am.

Brilliant.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EatsDirt said:


> Well buddy, you're painting with some pretty broad strokes yourself... and maybe you've forgotten you've offered up a little info about yourself?
> 
> Yep. I only dig to tell you all about how *****en I am.
> 
> Brilliant.


Does it really matter who i am and what i do? For some reason you picture me as a spoiled bratt that is unappreciative of all the work beeing done to make and maintain those trails when all I'm saying from the beggining is that a few bypasses isn't that big a deal if it can encourage more riders to enjoy a trail. Do I need some of them? yes I do. I don't do well with 10 feet drop outs...my old bones can't recover well if I take a spill. I can still do them with a 530 KTM Enduro dirt bike if you really want to know but decided Enduro bike was pretty much enough for me before I get hurt even more. 
So , I've been riding dirt bikes all my life (and racers). Exploring new trails with heavy and powerfull dirt bike. been carrying my tools in my backpack while riding, all that extra weight for the sake of openning new trails and bypasses to make it a little easier for friends who wanted to tag along with me but felt it was too hard to follow riders like me. I remember spending 4 hrs trying to get my KTM out of a mud hole. Every time I would move it a little , it would sink just a little more. I worked for days to fix that sink hole so that it wouldn't happen to anyone else. Would go back to that spot every year to make sure my fix was still holding... Sometimes I would envie the riders that didn't even bring a bottle of water to feel free and light. While I was carrying my camelback full of water cause I knew i would need it at some point cause I couldn't just zoom by a broken trail section. Had to stop and fix it. Anyways , I have over 40 years of story to tell you of all the trails I've traveled and all the adventures that happened , from hitting a deers to fixing bikes in the middle of nowhere , in the cold , the heat , the rain , mud whatever nature would throw at me. Who cared about the weather , when I had time to ride that was it. I would take whatever mother nature would offer that day. I'm pretty sure whatever skills I have with dirt bikes tranfered pretty easilly to MTB. 
Does it make you feel better now that you know me a little more . Have I earned the right to travel your trails? Have I earned your respect?


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Entertaining drama!

I just stopped by to say, **** Strava-tard cheater lines.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Giodog2000 said:


> So the question remains unanswered: I would bet OP and other very skilled riders have made more difficult cheat lines since . I bet more harder lines have been made VS easier cheat lines over the years. How many of you openned a new lines cause the trail was getting boring for you as your skills were getting better and better. Did it ever happen you went out of the a trail to try and make a more difficult drop off to challenge yourself or just for bragging rights? Bragging rights....isn't that what MTB is all about huh so , lets not sanitize the trails so we can keep on bragging. Really this "sanitize" , "pussify", "play golf if you can't cut it" crap is really what kills the enthousiasm of learning something new.


I laugh at that mentality, sad really.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cleared2land said:


> Ok, perhaps there are several philosophies being addressed here.
> 
> My term of 'sanitizing' is more related to those who approach a difficult section of trail and directly and intentionally modify that trail to 'dumb it down' to their abilities. This particular modification removes the technical element for those capable of enjoying it pre-sanitation.
> 
> On another note... bypasses I can see as acceptable based on the topography, builders intentions and sustainability. I have no problems with these 'bypasses' when they are constructed in an intentionally proper, sustainable method. My beef is when these are rouge trails that are established with little thought for water and erosion control and for the purpose of NOT having to walk the bike. When these are created to achieve a faster time through an otherwise slow section, then I have issues.


Bingo!

This is what I have been trying to get across.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

Giodog2000 said:


> I would bet OP and other very skilled riders


::cough::


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

the one ring said:


> Entertaining drama!
> 
> I just stopped by to say, **** Strava-tard cheater lines.
> 
> View attachment 1109521


Ha! That's ****, lol


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Giodog2000 said:


> . . . all I'm saying from the beggining is that a few bypasses isn't that big a deal if it can encourage more riders to enjoy a trail . . .


I've been following this thread closely since I started it, and to be honest, have been waiting for a guy like you Giodog. Most people here have reinforced my original point: If you didn't build it, then you don't have a right to modify it. Trail maintenance is the obvious exception to this, and everyone here knows the difference between maintenance and sanitization, so stop making that analogy.

The quote above exemplifies the core problem. Its the attitude that changing the original layout of the trail is acceptable, especially if it is done under the guise of encouraging others to ride. And I'm going to pick on you Giodog, but its only because you're the one who is here . . . the even bigger problem is that this is coming from someone new to the sport. My friend, you're new here and I welcome you. But you haven't been around long enough to know just how hard it is to get - and keep - trail access. You are very fortunate to have ready-made trails that are fun and challenging available to you . . . many of us now do too, but it hasn't always been that way. In some places, getting access to trails is hard fought, in others this fight wages on, and others are actively losing their trails (e.g., Idaho). And as our sport continues to grow, this attitude that its okay to modify trails is going to become more pervasive than it already is and threaten our sustainability unless we as a community do something about it.

The _real_ issue here is that every rider needs to be a good steward and advocate for our sport, which includes promoting proper trail etiquette. And as we welcome others to the sport, ensure that they too know these guiding principles. Leaving trails as they were originally built and planned needs to be common knowledge, just like how people know not to ride after a rain or during the spring thaws, and that bikers yield to all other trail users. If we do not, I worry what the future of our sport will look like . . .


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

PerfectZero said:


> ::cough::


:thumbsup:


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

007 said:


> I've been following this thread closely since I started it, and to be honest, have been waiting for a guy like you Giodog. Most people here have reinforced my original point: If you didn't build it, then you don't have a right to modify it. Trail maintenance is the obvious exception to this, and everyone here knows the difference between maintenance and sanitization, so stop making that analogy.
> 
> The quote above exemplifies the core problem. Its the attitude that changing the original layout of the trail is acceptable, especially if it is done under the guise of encouraging others to ride. And I'm going to pick on you Giodog, but its only because you're the one who is here . . . the even bigger problem is that this is coming from someone new to the sport. My friend, you're new here and I welcome you. But you haven't been around long enough to know just how hard it is to get - and keep - trail access. You are very fortunate to have ready-made trails that are fun and challenging available to you . . . many of us now do too, but it hasn't always been that way. In some places, getting access to trails is hard fought, in others this fight wages on, and others are actively losing their trails (e.g., Idaho). And as our sport continues to grow, this attitude that its okay to modify trails is going to become more pervasive than it already is and threaten our sustainability unless we as a community do something about it.
> 
> The _real_ issue here is that every rider needs to be a good steward and advocate for our sport, which includes promoting proper trail etiquette. And as we welcome others to the sport, ensure that they too know these guiding principles. Leaving trails as they were originally built and planned needs to be common knowledge, just like how people know not to ride after a rain or during the spring thaws, and that bikers yield to all other trail users. If we do not, I worry what the future of our sport will look like . . .


Totally agree with you and btw it was a very polite way of picking on me ;-)

I understand all this and this is why I never modify a trail but I do appreciate the bypasses once in a while. Hopefully you read my post about my dirt bike background and understand that I'm not totally new to the trail world (trail bike or mtb). Those two sports are very much related aside from a few differences. 
Anyways, I love a good debate but I don't like it when we start hating. (I'll take some of the blame for that)


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

The last page of 2 got me interested in this thread but I am going to ignore all that back and forth and just comment on the OP.

Yes, sanitizing or modifying to make it "easier" is a constant issue at the main trail I ride. From my experience riding behind some of them it seems to be very low skilled riders doing it at our trail, but not necessarily inexperienced. I think the only thing that seems to help is to build in a ride around. But some of the things that I have seen done,e.g, moving large rocks to put in front of a 6" water bar so there is now a safe approach" making cheater lines around incredibly easy 1' ledges that can be rolled if one still does not want to "get air". And bushwhacked cheater lines around virtually every single footy or rocky uphill or downhill, it mkaesmyounscratch your head. The only real ride Arounds for all of that is a totally flat smooth trail--ride the paved or crushed rock multi-path.

Still, ride arounds built into the system at least help maintain truly challenging features. When the trail builder dictates a single approach to a truly intermediate or advanced feature on a trail system that has easy public access then they are almost asking for sanitization efforts and cheater lines.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

cjsb said:


> Still, ride arounds built into the system at least help maintain truly challenging features. When the trail builder dictates a single approach to a truly intermediate or advanced feature on a trail system that has easy public access then they are almost asking for sanitization efforts and cheater lines.


This^^^

Ride-arounds prevent sanitization of the harder feature. For this reason, if they are done in a way that is more or less sustainable, I leave them and don't get all butt-hurt that someone has a different idea how they want to ride.

Granted, some are not sustainable, and those you need to close.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Lecturing riders that they need to ride or maintain a trail the way you want it is about as effective as yelling at water for not draining the right way.

I say this from experience. I take a much longer view now.


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## noose (Feb 11, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I understand the frustration. Every rider no matter of skill level needs to conform to the trail and the riders with them. If an obstacle comes up where a group of slower riders stop to walk, the faster riders coming up on them need to adhere to the situation. I for one find group rides more of a pain in the butt than they're worth. Too many variables in skill level and fitness.


I agree completely. I find riding with one or two more closely matched people more fun than group rides. Less waiting and challenging the same terrain is fun.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

kapusta said:


> Lecturing riders that they need to ride or maintain a trail the way you want it is about as effective as yelling at water for not draining the right way.
> 
> I say this from experience. I take a much longer view now.


Nobody said anything about lecturing. If you find that people aren't receptive to your message, then you need to re-evaluate your delivery. Plain and simple.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

kapusta said:


> Lecturing riders that they need to ride or maintain a trail the way you want it is about as effective as yelling at water for not draining the right way.
> 
> I say this from experience. I take a much longer view now.


It did kinda feel like lecturing to me! But I can't understand these things cause I'm new here and to the sport ...We are not worthyyyyy!!!! 
Happy trails ;-)


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bingo!
> 
> This is what I have been trying to get across.


did you make it??


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> Ok, perhaps there are several philosophies being addressed here.
> 
> My term of 'sanitizing' is more related to those who approach a difficult section of trail and directly and intentionally modify that trail to 'dumb it down' to their abilities. This particular modification removes the technical element for those capable of enjoying it pre-sanitation.
> 
> On another note... bypasses I can see as acceptable based on the topography, builders intentions and sustainability. I have no problems with these 'bypasses' when they are constructed in an intentionally proper, sustainable method. My beef is when these are rouge trails that are established with little thought for water and erosion control and for the purpose of NOT having to walk the bike. When these are created to achieve a faster time through an otherwise slow section, then I have issues.


I missed this before skimming through this thread. This is right on.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

The pic below was, until recently, a great little step up ledge on a very intermediate trail... one of the very few features on a quality trail that were memorable. The challenge for skilled riders was holding dh momentum while crossing the creek then preload/yank up then back to full speed on the deck. Hardly a challenge for intermediate riders, but I'm sure lesser skilled riders had to dismount. It might have even been slightly dangerous!

Sanitized by some a$$hat. A 150lbs rock imbedded in solid dirt at the top of the groove was removed.










Let's make the trails easy for everyone! Yay! Giomoto can tell us all how it needs to be done since he's the champion for noob trail access!


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

That's normal around here. Even in the 4wd world this was a issue. Make the trail easier to you feel good for clearing it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

150# is too easy to move, embed one at least 5x that size in there!


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EatsDirt said:


> Let's make the trails easy for everyone! Yay! Giomoto can tell us all how it needs to be done since he's the champion for noob trail access!


You must be thick buddy. I've said many times I am not for this kind of behavior. I'm for b-lines. What part of it don't you understand? 
Since you ask, first thing I would do is discharge you from beeing responsible for those trails not cause you do not make a good job (i"m sure you do ) but because you are a BAD ambassador for the sport. Now get a grip buddy and grow up a little.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I said this before but I will say it again . I don't like your kind. I understand why your having trouble with your trails , cause of the way you must treat riders that arn't as skilled as you. Once they meet you on those trails , they have no respect for you. You get what you deserve. Now go roll that rock back and shove it!


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

This thread just solidifies our reasoning for keeping our trails out of public eye. We built our trails to our level, no reason for bypasses on them.


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## Quentin (Mar 30, 2008)

So, what about the opposite? I've seen people add huge rock piles to a fast, smooth sections for absolutely no reason. It was almost "well, if I can't go fast, no one can!" Since we are blaming Strava, I imagine that there are people out there that get a KOM and then go back and make the trail more technical to keep someone else from claiming the KOM. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Quentin said:


> So, what about the opposite? I've seen people add huge rock piles to a fast, smooth sections for absolutely no reason. It was almost "well, if I can't go fast, no one can!" Since we are blaming Strava, I imagine that there are people out there that get a KOM and then go back and make the trail more technical to keep someone else from claiming the KOM.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Quentin, I already asked that and nobody of these pro riders will answer the question. One's answer to that was " I laugh at that" ..... You'll never win with these people! 
I'm pretty much done with this thread and I'm sure these guys are happy to see me go , just like they don't want noobs on their precious trails....


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Lol seriously


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

I can relate to the noobs to the sport like giodog because I am one too (2 years now), and I had a hard time with trail sanitizing like wtf does that mean?? And cheater lines, I thought it was just for the less skilled to ride around a tech section. I used to race bmx and there was a track and then a bad ass section for the pros, so I thought these trails were normal. After I read threads like these that pop up I started to get it.

BUT how is one to know how to tell the difference? The people that "know" need to tear down the sani and the cheater lines.

Like this. (I didn't do it someone smarter than me did.) and I'm sure they dgaf about their strava time


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> I can relate to the noobs to the sport like giodog because I am one too (2 years now), and I had a hard time with trail sanitizing like wtf does that mean?? And cheater lines, I thought it was just for the less skilled to ride around a tech section. I used to race bmx and there was a track and then a bad ass section for the pros, so I thought these trails were normal. After I read threads like these that pop up I started to get it.
> 
> BUT how is one to know how to tell the difference? The people that "know" need to tear down the sani and the cheater lines.
> 
> Like this. (I didn't do it someone smarter than me did.) and I'm sure they dgaf about their strava time


Agreed. There wasn't even an obstacle to bypass.


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## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Giodog2000 said:


> Agreed. There wasn't even an obstacle to bypass.


What I meant was the original trail was to the right, there's a big rock that's hard to see under the shadow of the yucca. Someone built a bypass to the left (I only know this because I rode it it before and after) and then someone blocked it with big rocks. That's how it should be done in my noob opinion.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> What I meant was the original trail was to the right, there's a big rock that's hard to see under the shadow of the yucca. Someone built a bypass to the left (I only know this because I rode it it before and after) and then someone blocked it with big rocks. That's how it should be done in my noob opinion.


Right , I can see the rock. Thats hardly and obstacle. You don't have to jump that , you can just roll over it and done. No need for a b-line there. It's obvious in this case this is a cheater line.


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

Giodog2000 said:


> You must be thick buddy. I've said many times I am not for this kind of behavior. I'm for b-lines. What part of it don't you understand?
> Since you ask, first thing I would do is discharge you from beeing responsible for those trails not cause you do not make a good job (i"m sure you do ) but because you are a BAD ambassador for the sport. Now get a grip buddy and grow up a little.
> 
> EDIT: I'm pretty sure I said this before but I will say it again . I don't like your kind. I understand why your having trouble with your trails , cause of the way you must treat riders that arn't as skilled as you. Once they meet you on those trails , they have no respect for you. You get what you deserve. Now go roll that rock back and shove it!


Hey BUDDY, first off there's nobody to dismiss me from responsibility because I have no responsibility. I do it because no one else does and I want to ride decent trails and stoke my friends.

I'm sorry you have your panties in a bunch but you're not remotely interested in seeing my perspective, the one that sees the negative aspects of lower skilled rider traffic, and yet you're zealously carrying the torch for them... so, not sorry.

The way I treat riders (hikers, etc) I meet might not be anything like I treat interwebers who like to think they've got it all figured out.

Since you're so altruistic and righteous I'm sure you'll be out digging soon. Good luck with that.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

I've never moved any objects and walked when I had to. I will say most places I've ridden do a poor job of signage, so you'll always end up with people on trails where they don't belong. Hoping people will take the time to read up on trail ettiquette and maintenance is an admirable dream, but a dream none-the-less. I have yet to see any sign that states the trail is a advanced trail and any alteration is a violation of (regulation, use permission, you tell me) and the punishment (you tell me). For a lot if people that is necessary.

That said, I hope everyone realizes that the industry probably would like to see alternate routes. More people riding means more sales.

Other sports are trying to dumb things down to increase sales to a new market. Can't paddle out and stand up, get a SUP board and a paddle. And we haven't even talked about e-bikes.

John


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

EatsDirt said:


> Hey BUDDY, first off there's nobody to dismiss me from responsibility because I have no responsibility. I do it because no one else does and I want to ride decent trails and stoke my friends.
> 
> I'm sorry you have your panties in a bunch but you're not remotely interested in seeing my perspective, the one that sees the negative aspects of lower skilled rider traffic, and yet you're zealously carrying the torch for them... so, not sorry.
> 
> ...


I do see part of your perspective. But you are so close minded that you can't even see that. I agree to most of what has been said here. The only part where we disagree is that I am in favor of bypasses on more technical portions that the average rider can either get hurt or doesn't have the skill level YET to tackle it. I'm against cheater lines. 
Where we disagree is that all of this means dumbing down trails for you. And I do understand what people mean by this and I also agree. *The only part where we disagree is that I am not opposed to b-line (bypasses , or whatever you wanna call them) where a technical portion would require and average rider to dismount. Something like a drop off, a rock garden , a climb that only a very skilled rider can try. It's not taking anything away from you.* It's only adding options here and there so that the trail can be accessible to more riders with different skill levels. And lets be honest , *there are more average riders *tan pro's like you. I also understand that many of you don;t want that cause this means more people on the trails that have inferior skill levels than you have and will/might affect your flow. Takes away the fun for you. I respect that also. I think bigginners can appreciate that and we usually try to move to the side when we see more experienced riders coming towards us. It's rarely the other way around. It's not logical for a fast rider to slow down give way to a slow rider. And begginers don't want that either cause they eventually , they want to be the ones riding like you guys are and again not the other way around. 
Yes I am all for pushing my limits and trying the more technical stuff , like I said many times I am very competetive in all I do. I think you underestimate me and most riders as a matter of fact. Many of us choose not to jump that 10 foot drop off . Not that we can't land it but just because we don't want to commit to the consequences of a possible injury. 
We might have the same skill level you and I , and it's probably very possible that I can follow you all day in Flow trails. Who knows, maybe in my neck of the woods I ride much more technical trails than you do and they call it green trails around here. Who knows. 
But for those riders who choose not to jump the drop off either because they don't want to chance an injury or simply because they do not have the skills to do it , then why not a b-line ? Like I said , it doesn't take anyting away from you. Trust me , we are not stupid enough to think that because there is a b-line there that it gives us the signal that we can do this everywhere on the trails. *Don't mix things up with the ones who do the cheater lines (Strava). Those are in a class of their own. Those are the ones you wanna expose. And usually , those guys are the most skilled riders , they need flow to beat their own personal time so they can feel good at the end of the day and show off their Strava screen shot on forums.* Look what I have acomplished. Don;t blame the bigginers/noobs cause we know we don't belong and all we are trying to do is gain skills so that we can ride those trails eventually and , we know we have to get outa your way or else we get the evil eyes.... Now , if you read all this , maybe you can realize that I do see your perspective. Just remmeber how you started and tell me that you or even pro's have never taken another line to avoid something they didn't have the skills for. 
*I don;t know how old you are and it's irrelevent but those trails were there wayyyy before you found them. And since then , they probably were modified many time and you wern't there to be a witness of that but when you found them , you probably thought they were perfect and thats what you want to preserve. Those trails will change again . They will change because like anything else, the sport is evolving. Better bikes, better suspension, dropper posts, better overal geometry. People are now building all kind of trails to match what the bike is capable of. For me , this is a good thing. It only means the sport is alive and VERY VERY well. *

Would be fun to ride together some day..... ;-)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Quentin said:


> Since we are blaming Strava, I imagine that there are people out there that get a KOM and then go back and make the trail more technical to keep someone else from claiming the KOM.


Hmmm, that's not a bad idea........STRAVA!!!!!!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Giodog2000 said:


> I am in favor of bypasses on more technical portions that the average rider can either get hurt or doesn't have the skill level YET to tackle it.


If it's an original part of the design then the bypasses will already be there. If they aren't, then NO ONE but the original builders get to put them in. Some trails are designed to be difficult and to only cater to those riders who can handle the tech. If a rider can't read a map or trail signs and find themselves on a trail with features they can't handle, that does not authorize them to begin building a cheater line. They get to dismount and walk the tech. You got upset before when someone mentioned participation trophies but that is seriously what you are pushing for. You think that people who get in over their heads on a trail should be given options so they don't feel bad about themselves and quit the sport.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Giodog2000 said:


> [insert long post with bolded text]
> 
> Would be fun to ride together some day..... ;-)


First . . . my friend, you have _no_ idea who you are talking to . . . and you would be wise to keep that in mind.

Second . . . there is no difference between a cheater line and a b-line. Don't kid yourself, and you're not going to convince me or anyone else that their the same. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



Silentfoe said:


> If it's an original part of the design then the bypasses will already be there.
> 
> If they aren't, then NO ONE but the original builders get to put them in.
> 
> ...


Summarized in far fewer words than I could have, with added breaks to reduce skimming. Absolutely and unequivocally, spot on.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

007 said:


> Second . . . there is no difference between a cheater line and a b-line. Don't kid yourself, and you're not going to convince me or anyone else that their the same.


What about purpose built alternate lines? I'd consider those "b-lines" and no more cheating than using 160mm suspension or dropper posts.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

007 said:


> First . . . my friend, you have _no_ idea who you are talking to . . . and you would be wise to keep that in mind.


Well I'm sorry I barged into the Trail Gods meeting....Carry on! lol

Seriously , I looked up to riders like you guys but now , all I see is pretentious little pests that think they have reached a level where they can look down on us like if we're roaches.

So closed minded you are......it's sickening to watch! You are no ambassador of the sport, you are quite the opposite. 
What I learnd about myself in this debate according to you guys is that I am a Participation trophy advocat then. If thats how you see it. Cause the gods have spoken and thats how it is. But next time I see one of the "elite" rider , I will not move aside if I know I belong in the same trail he does. I will not take the bypasses anymore , but you'll wait until I'm ready to move forward , in the back like everyone else. Thats what you want!


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> What about purpose built alternate lines? I'd consider those "b-lines" and no more cheating than using 160mm suspension or dropper posts.


If they were put there by the builder, I'd call that "trail."

And there's an ENORMOUS difference between bringing advanced components (e.g., dropper posts, suspension) and modifying the trail. The components on your bike make it easier for _you_, and affect nobody else around you.

And before someone comes along and says "but what about e-bikes? Those make it easier for me and don't affect you, so are you saying that e-bikes are fine?" No. an e-bike is not a bicycle, end of story. *DON'T TURN THIS INTO AN eBIKE THREAD.*


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Giodog2000 said:


> Well I'm sorry I barged into the Trail Gods meeting....Carry on! lol
> 
> Seriously , I looked up to riders like you guys but now , all I see is pretentious little pests that think they have reached a level where they can look down on us like if we're roaches.
> 
> ...


You just don't get it . . . . at the end of the day, what this thread boils down to is respect, and I'm sorry that message has missed you.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> What about purpose built alternate lines? I'd consider those "b-lines" and no more cheating than using 160mm suspension or dropper posts.


 Ride a Fargo and keep it real. Exactly where I've been going for the last two years.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

007 said:


> You just don't get it . . . . at the end of the day, what this thread boils down to is respect, and I'm sorry that message has missed you.


It never was about respect from post number 1.... Now you want to turn this into a "respect" issue now that I've mention that I will not take the b-lines anymore but I might slow you down some? You are pathetic....really!


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> I can relate to the noobs to the sport like giodog because I am one too (2 years now), and I had a hard time with trail sanitizing like wtf does that mean?? And cheater lines, I thought it was just for the less skilled to ride around a tech section. I used to race bmx and there was a track and then a bad ass section for the pros, so I thought these trails were normal. After I read threads like these that pop up I started to get it.
> 
> BUT how is one to know how to tell the difference? The people that "know" need to tear down the sani and the cheater lines.
> 
> Like this. (I didn't do it someone smarter than me did.) and I'm sure they dgaf about their strava time


ive ridden in places that had established routes , the one even had signs for easy and hard. Most our vegas trails just get wrecked by stravatards looking for an easy, faster route


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

007 said:


> You just don't get it . . . . at the end of the day, what this thread boils down to is respect, and I'm sorry that message has missed you.


I don't think many people here are replying to him with respect, you included. People seem to gloss over entire paragraphs he has written and accuse him over and over of things he never said.

You also have me intrigued with your previous post. You must be famous by the way you were talking.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

terrasmak said:


> ive ridden in places that had established routes , the one even had signs for easy and hard. Most our vegas trails just get wrecked by stravatards looking for an easy, faster route


The problem you're having in the desert is due to the way other wheeled off road vehicles treat it. For the most part it is a free ride environment with no set in stone routes in many of their usage areas. When/if they get into biking it makes sense that this would carry forward in their minds. This doesn't excuse but is likely part of the issue.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The problem you're having in the desert is due to the way other wheeled off road vehicles treat it. For the most part it is a free ride environment with no set in stone routes in many of their usage areas. When/if they get into biking it makes sense that this would carry forward in their minds. This doesn't excuse but is likely part of the issue.


One thing I notice in the desert is that if there is cryptobiotic soil nearby, tons of people have to build side trails over it.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Hey Guys, been really fun debating with y'all. But I;d like to leave you with some food for thoughts (in a very humble way) as you have also given me throughout this discussion.

This is where I ride. Maybe we have different views because we ride different places. *But please take 5 min of your time and watch this vid. Pay attention on the comments and how he talks about side-tracks and what happens when he encounters slower traffic*. Does this seam anything as complicated as we have discussed here in this thread? Is this guy over- qualified for the trail or are the people around him under-qualified? who shouldn't be there? Or could it simply be that we all belong there but we see things and lines differently?


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

I don't mind a B line but don't mess with the A.

Not to worry soon our MTB will just ride over things.






and yes, I know the the history of this video and release day...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> This is where I ride. Maybe we have different views because we ride different places. *But please take 5 min of your time and watch this vid. Pay attention on the comments and how he talks about side-tracks and what happens when he encounters slower traffic*. Does this seam anything as complicated as we have discussed here in this thread? Is this guy over- qualified for the trail or are the people around him under-qualified? who shouldn't be there? Or could it simply be that we all belong there but we see things and lines differently?


I can't figure out for the life of me what any of this has to do with sanitizing trails.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> I can't figure out for the life of me what any of this has to do with sanitizing trails.


Of course you don't.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Some dude is riding down a random resort trail. 
Uhh...great point...?


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

It is not just noobs or stravatards.
When I started riding with rim brakes and narrow bars, a good trail was one I couldn't clean. I mean if you had to walk a section, so what. The local trails had something to challenge me. And really if you have to dab or walk a short section who cares?
But because we loved our sport and encouraged anyone we could find to get involved things changed. Now if you can't clean a section on your 150mm disc/dropper bike then the trail is considered unsafe/dumb/environmentally poor and someone or a trail organization will change it.
Now some things like corner cutting is wrong but is also a result of poor design. And the only way to combat it is to get out your shovel and take action.
If a noob rider can change a trail then so can you. And a lot of these stravatards will give up or end up moving onto the next cool thing.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Just about everything I ride on is public land. Private land is a different subject. I also live in SoCal where there is a sea of humanity. I am not familiar with how original trails were established years ago on these lands. But I've seen alt routes in both directions despite the stay on trail signs. I would think that in today's environment someone would need an MOA/MOU to build any trail.

The next door neighbor told me that at one of the places I ride the county is building an easier route to open the area to more people. Undoubtedly this will put more people on trails that are more difficult. Some trails will up getting watered down and some won't.

What I do know that nothing stays the same, regardless whether the result is bad. Been on this planet too long to be naive that someone isn't going to come along and ruin what I thought was right in the first place. And the more people, the more it changes. A universal fact of life.

My main concern is whether a trail is ruined from erosion due to indescriminant cuts in a trail than the existence of a secondary route. I applaud your efforts to keep things as originally intended, (that in itself is a can of worms for some if you want to consider pre-trail environment), but from my vantage point it is a little like spitting in the wind.

John


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I can't figure out for the life of me what any of this has to do with sanitizing trails.


Same here, looked like some dude previewing a race course.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> I can't figure out for the life of me what any of this has to do with sanitizing trails.





J.B. Weld said:


> Same here, looked like some dude previewing a race course.


You'll figure out whatever you want to figure out about this post....maybe nothing at all. And thats fine also. You want an alternative b-vid? (it's just a joke lol....I love you buddy xxxx)


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)




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## smokersteve (Oct 14, 2016)

Wow


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I find it sad that our sport has so many ignorant self entightled yahoos.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I find it sad that our sport has so many ignorant self entightled yahoos.


We know that ...I think you've mentionned already. Not sure.....yup , you mentionned already.....


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Giodog2000 said:


> We know that ...I think you've mentionned already. Not sure.....yup , you mentionned already.....


Consistency is everything.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Consistency is everything.


lol , sure it is :smallviolin: ....did you take your meds, it's 7pm now Mr. Barlow.

;-)


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

One mans 7pm is another mans 5pm. I've got 2 hours until I take my meds. But thanks for the reminder as I tie some string to my finger.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I thought he was leaving?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> I thought he was leaving?


I believe that was correct.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> I believe that was correct.





Silentfoe said:


> I thought he was leaving?


I kinda like it here now...plus I see the topic isn't as important to you now so we have time for some chit chat or Maybe we should close this thread now before we start bragging about who's got the stronger meds. Why not start another thread ? We can call that one " Who rides on the strongest Meds"


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I can see a sock account coming outta this somewhere.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> I can see a sock account coming outta this somewhere.


No worries mate. It's not my type.

I think we all said what we had to say here. I'm no worst than the next guy for saying stuff so if you are implying that I'll get banned well I expect others to be banned also.

I think we should leave it at that , and move on. Nothing good will come out of this thread now.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)




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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Maybe stuff is done differently in Canada vs the USA? And lots of local trail builders and mt bikes don't like to see the trails degraded into sally lines, go arounds and braids.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> I can see a sock account coming outta this somewhere.


great you said the magic word and they appear



B888ourg said:


> Not cool. I've had a few talks with people on our local trails mailmarke.com ? Email marketing


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Giodog2000 said:


> Hey Guys, been really fun debating with y'all. But I;d like to leave you with some food for thoughts (in a very humble way) as you have also given me throughout this discussion.
> 
> This is where I ride. Maybe we have different views because we ride different places. *But please take 5 min of your time and watch this vid. Pay attention on the comments and how he talks about side-tracks and what happens when he encounters slower traffic*. Does this seam anything as complicated as we have discussed here in this thread? Is this guy over- qualified for the trail or are the people around him under-qualified? who shouldn't be there? Or could it simply be that we all belong there but we see things and lines differently?


This is a terrible video, who could pay attention to anything with the video like Blair witch? The trail looks like a bit of a snoozer compared to the rider's narrative. I am still waiting for a drop or for anything worth sanitizing. I saw one section where a female rider was walking her bike down wooden feature and the guy waited for her to clear before he rode down. So what? If people are sanitizing that trail or making cheater lines they need to stick to the paved multi-path.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Giodog2000 said:


> It never was about respect from post number 1.... Now you want to turn this into a "respect" issue now that I've mention that I will not take the b-lines anymore but I might slow you down some? You are pathetic....really!


Yeah, man . . . it is about respect, and again, I'm sorry you don't see that. It's about respecting the trail that was built before you got there and those who built it. It's about respect for the folks who fought hard - and continue to fight - for trail access. It's about respect for those who actively maintain the trails you enjoy. It's about respect for the other riders in your community.

Unless you're the one who put in the time, effort, and sweat equity, then you should show some goddam respect for those who did. Because without them, you wouldn't have any trails to enjoy.



Steezus said:


> I don't think many people here are replying to him with respect, you included. People seem to gloss over entire paragraphs he has written and accuse him over and over of things he never said.
> 
> You also have me intrigued with your previous post. You must be famous by the way you were talking.


No need to worry about who I am. I'm just your average recreational cyclist and trail advocate. If you look a little more closely, you might realize that my post was in defense of a friend and fellow activist, someone that I know has put in plenty of man-hours building and maintaining local trail.

And yeah, you're right . . . some people haven't been very respectful in this thread, but you don't see me calling anyone "pathetic" or any other name besides that which they sign their posts with. In fact, I even apologized on the front end for singling him out.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Giodog2000 said:


> Does it really matter who i am and what i do? For some reason you picture me as a spoiled bratt that is unappreciative of all the work beeing done to make and maintain those trails when all I'm saying from the beggining is that a few bypasses isn't that big a deal if it can encourage more riders to enjoy a trail. Do I need some of them? yes I do. I don't do well with 10 feet drop outs...my old bones can't recover well if I take a spill. I can still do them with a 530 KTM Enduro dirt bike if you really want to know but decided Enduro bike was pretty much enough for me before I get hurt even more.
> So , I've been riding dirt bikes all my life (and racers). Exploring new trails with heavy and powerfull dirt bike. been carrying my tools in my backpack while riding, all that extra weight for the sake of openning new trails and bypasses to make it a little easier for friends who wanted to tag along with me but felt it was too hard to follow riders like me. I remember spending 4 hrs trying to get my KTM out of a mud hole. Every time I would move it a little , it would sink just a little more. I worked for days to fix that sink hole so that it wouldn't happen to anyone else. Would go back to that spot every year to make sure my fix was still holding... Sometimes I would envie the riders that didn't even bring a bottle of water to feel free and light. While I was carrying my camelback full of water cause I knew i would need it at some point cause I couldn't just zoom by a broken trail section. Had to stop and fix it. Anyways , I have over 40 years of story to tell you of all the trails I've traveled and all the adventures that happened , from hitting a deers to fixing bikes in the middle of nowhere , in the cold , the heat , the rain , mud whatever nature would throw at me. Who cared about the weather , when I had time to ride that was it. I would take whatever mother nature would offer that day. I'm pretty sure whatever skills I have with dirt bikes tranfered pretty easilly to MTB.
> Does it make you feel better now that you know me a little more . Have I earned the right to travel your trails? Have I earned your respect?





007 said:


> I've been following this thread closely since I started it, and to be honest, *have been waiting for a guy like you Giodog*. Most people here have reinforced my original point: If you didn't build it, then you don't have a right to modify it. Trail maintenance is the obvious exception to this, and everyone here knows the difference between maintenance and sanitization, so stop making that analogy.
> 
> The quote above exemplifies the core problem. Its the attitude that changing the original layout of the trail is acceptable, especially if it is done under the guise of encouraging others to ride. *And I'm going to pick on you Giodog,* but its only because you're the one who is here . . . the even bigger problem is that this is coming from someone new to the sport. My friend, you're new here and I welcome you. *But you haven't been around long enough to know just how hard it is to get - and keep - trail access. *You are very fortunate to have ready-made trails that are fun and challenging available to you . . . many of us now do too, but it hasn't always been that way. In some places, getting access to trails is hard fought, in others this fight wages on, and others are actively losing their trails (e.g., Idaho). *And as our sport continues to grow, this attitude that its okay to modify trails* is going to become more pervasive than it already is and threaten our sustainability unless we as a community do something about it.
> 
> The _real_ issue here is that every rider needs to be a good steward and advocate for our sport, which includes promoting proper trail etiquette. And as we welcome others to the sport, ensure that they too know these guiding principles. Leaving trails as they were originally built and planned needs to be common knowledge, just like how people know not to ride after a rain or during the spring thaws, and that bikers yield to all other trail users. If we do not, I worry what the future of our sport will look like . . .





007 said:


> Yeah, man . . . it is about respect, and again, I'm sorry you don't see that. It's about respecting the trail that was built before you got there and those who built it. It's about respect for the folks who fought hard - and continue to fight - for trail access. It's about respect for those who actively maintain the trails you enjoy. It's about respect for the other riders in your community.
> 
> *Unless you're the one who put in the time, effort, and sweat equity, then you should show some goddam respect for those who did*. Because without them, you wouldn't have any trails to enjoy.
> 
> ...


Here is an example where you lectured me but obviously never took the time to read the posts before (*read them now if you want or else this post either won't make any sense to you*). .....If you would have taken the time to read what I was saying , you would have known how hard I worked on dirt bike trails and how I know how hard it is to convince land owners to let us pass on their lands to connect with bits and peices of trails so that eventually we have descent trail systems. Free trail systems. This goes for many of you who put words in my mouth saying stuff like I was for dumbing down trail by removing technical stuff. Some of you even lectured me that I had no right to modifiy a trail when I said several times that I never modified a trail. Find a quote where I say I modified or I wanted to remove technical stuff to make trails easier and shame me.
*Yes I agree , saying you are pathetic is disrespectful but you showed no respect whatsoever when you lectured me and picked on me ( your own words) right after I had posted (answering a question ) on who I was.*
It was clear in what I said that I had plenty of experience riding trails and working on them. It was also very clear that riding anything on 2 wheels (mtb or dirt bike) was "ONLY" 40 years of my life. I guess this is not enough for you to give me a little credit and respect to challenge some of you concerning MTB. *It's a bike for goodness sake* ....it's not a fighter jet! 
It's one of the first toy we ever wanted as kids. Thats what got some of us to ride 80cc dirt bike, then 150cc , then 250's then we wanted racers , 1000cc . Don't you think as a kid I reached the limits of what a bicycle could do and thats what pushed me to live on 2 wheels 40 years of my life, don't you think the passion for 2 wheels was strong enough so that it would inspire me to do "crazy" things (in a good way)? And now , back to basics, a bicycle, I suddendly forget how to ride on 2 wheels? WOW! And you call for respect? Bro really , realize I was born and I rode many many many more miles than you have or can even imagine on 2 wheels. Up until recently , you'd see me in a cage only a few months outa the year. Oh BTW a cage for us riders is a car if you din't know.

007... James..can I call you James ;-) Let it go my friend. I'll stop challenging all of you if you stop putting words in my mouth. Challenge me all you want , teach me everything you know, I admir people who are better than me. But don't lecture me on things I never said. Show some respect also. BTW, a little humor wouldn't hurt some of you. lol


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2016)

I find it hurtful that we're on page 5 and no one has mentioned the Awesome Strap. Not that the discourse hasn't been consistently relevant, it just that I'm used to someone pulling the trigger by page 3. I think we should all consider reviewing the informal rules we generally apply in these situations.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Awesome straps are used by ww xc dudes. WW xc dudes use strava. Strava users are dirty trail cutting cheaters.

>Awesome straps cause trail sanitation, just say no.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> If it's an original part of the design then the bypasses will already be there. If they aren't, then NO ONE but the original builders get to put them in..


If the trail is relatively new and the original builder is still the predominant maintainer of that trail, I would give that sentiment some weight. However, in reality I find that rarely the case, at least most places I know well on the East Coast.

For one thing, there is a good chance that the trail has changed a bit since first constructed. Many "features" that people argue over keeping or going around or "fixing" are the result of wear, erosion, or trees falling, not some master plan.

Also, in many cases there was no master plan for a trail, it just ended up where it is by committee or by convenience (like to avoid a fallen tree than is long since gone). Or the original builder/designer is long gone or no longer involved.

Or the trail is old enough that it was not even built for mountain bikes in the first place.

In many cases on a trail more than a few years old, you really don't know what the original builder had in mind because the trail has changed from wear, erosion, or even modifications that happened before you first rode a trail.

But even if the builder IS still around and maintaining the trail (and I say this as someone who has built and maintained trails) we are not talking about a Picasso, here. While I think in this case we could all agree that modifying the intended line is a dick move, I don't see an issue creating a SUSTAINABLE second line (be it harder or easier) And I say this as someone who has had this happen on trail sections that I have built or maintained.

This brings to mind a conflict that arose at a local trail system. There was one trail that has some pretty rocky/rooty sections, and people started riding around them. So one guy went in there with a machine and re-dug those sections, making them fast and flowy. Some vocal folks threw a fit that the trail was being dumbed down.

What these people did not know (or care about) was that smooth, fast and flowy was exactly what the original builders intended. I know because I know them.

I have seen this happen again and again: A trail gets built, then over a few years some sections get eroded out. It happens. Then the trail becomes a favorite of those enjoying rocky trails with good root drops, and freak out when someone wants to "fix" the trail. I know, I have often been one of those people freaking out about it.

The key is trying to get a feel from the riding community how they feel about the state of a trail and be willing to make compromises. Sometimes a feature you like is going to get dumbed down. That's life.

One thing I try to keep on mind is that trails are rarely "done". They change over time.

One of the best local trail builder I know takes this approach. These guys build a trail section, then see how it is being ridden. Then they take that info and make changes.

The best trails are ones that are enjoyed, and nobody knows better than those riding then. If you see a second line appearing, then that means a SUSTAINABLE second line would be an improvement.

But the one thing I feel pretty strongly about is that a sustainable second line which is built to address a need (regardless of what the builder had in mind) is almost always a good thing.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Agreed. I should have also included the designated maintainers. Inevitably there is a club or organization of some type that is responsible for a trail. If you aren't part of that group, working in an official capacity, don't touch the trail.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Our local organization is currently revising trails for the younger generation...


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

^yikes.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

What an odd discussion this thread has been. Trails are built for many reasons and each has their own goal. If it's on private land and you're building it then you get decide what goes on it. If it's on public land then the land manager, in conjunction with the builder, gets to decide what goes on it... Really pretty simple and yet there aren't hard and fast rules at all.

Some places I have built have intentional B-lines, as requested by the land manager... The alternative was to not have technical features so of course I was OK with it. Some places I ride are true freeride trails... Wouldn't really make sense to have B-lines in there, now would it? 

The only rule that should always apply is 'if you didn't build it, you shouldn't change it...' (But even then there are exceptions like when the builder is long-absent and a change truly needs to be made.) In my mind, if I don't know the builder and feel he or she would approve, I won't make a change.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

007 said:


> Yeah, man . . . it is about respect, and again, I'm sorry you don't see that. It's about respecting the trail that was built before you got there and those who built it. It's about respect for the folks who fought hard - and continue to fight - for trail access. It's about respect for those who actively maintain the trails you enjoy. It's about respect for the other riders in your community.
> 
> Unless you're the one who put in the time, effort, and sweat equity, then you should show some goddam respect for those who did. Because without them, you wouldn't have any trails to enjoy.


Could have saved myself the time, this post is about perfect.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

007 said:


> Second . . . there is no difference between a cheater line and a b-line. Don't kid yourself, and you're not going to convince me or anyone else that their the same. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Sorry, but this is very very wrong.

The first time I experienced a "B-Line" was up at Mammoth Mountain on a purpose built trail made by professionals. This particular trails had "B-Lines" That were actually harder than the main trail for those with a higher skill level. This is on a trail system you pay to ride that is maintained by the Park Staff.

Second, here in San Diego there is a trail system in the Laguna Mountains and one trail in particular, gato's ravine, has a sign at the beginning mentioning the harder lines and has the exact same thing, purpose built obstacles and features that are "B-Lines". I happen to love that trail because it causes me to push myself and try the new B-Lines. I could care less about a fast strava time on that downhill and in many places I have stopped and gone back to try certain sections over again to get them right. Log Rolls, Rock drops, etc are all part of the "B-lines".

In both my examples the easier line is the main trail, and the "B-Line" is the more difficult line, but both were made by the trail builders in conjunction with the oversight of the forest service.

There is a difference between a purpose built "B-line" and someone cutting the trail to get a faster strava time or someone sanitizing the main line to make it easier to ride.

The installation of B-Lines is something the should be addressed via the proper channels, those who work with land managers to maintain the trails, however in the real world we know it is usually people who do not read online forums or observe general trail building etiquette who go out and cut new trails. Half the time I see a "cheater" line it is just from people trail blazing with their bikes, not even bothering to bring out a shovel and "build" a true line.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Sorry, but this is very very wrong.
> 
> The first time I experienced a "B-Line" was up at Mammoth Mountain on a purpose built trail made by professionals. This particular trails had "B-Lines" That were actually harder than the main trail for those with a higher skill level. This is on a trail system you pay to ride that is maintained by the Park Staff.
> 
> ...


The problem is that since the trail in the OP is an illegal trail, people feel free to do as they please.

Regardless of the legality of the trails, because this happens on legal and illegal trails...

I'll respect them as soon as they start respecting others. As soon as they start changing something that was already enjoyed by many, they deserve zero respect because they give zero respect.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

richde said:


> The problem is that since the trail in the OP is an illegal trail, people feel free to do as they please.
> 
> Regardless of the legality of the trails, because this happens on legal and illegal trails...
> 
> I'll respect them as soon as they start respecting others. As soon as they start changing something that was already enjoyed by many, they deserve zero respect because they give zero respect.


I agree, for the most part.

But, alternate perspective (that I don't necessarily subscribe to, FWIW):

Couldn't the argument be made that the constructor of the illegal trails disrespected those that wished to continue to use the area in its natural state?

Or that they disrespected the process of getting trails built legally?

I know that, at least around here, it takes a while to get a trail approved and built in the National Forest. So people build illegal trails, which eventually get discovered and shut down, and serve as stumbling blocks for those that are trying to get legal trails approved and built.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

If the trail system in question is not legal to begin with, no one has any legs to stand on to argue from. In that case the original trail is just as bad as any b-line or strava cheater line or any sanitation. At that point it is up to the illegal builders to confront eachother in person to hash it out while they both hope the agency responsible for the land does not catch them.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

kapusta said:


> . . . One thing I try to keep on mind is that trails are rarely "done". They change over time . . .


I mostly agree with you, in particular, this point about trails evolving over time as people use them. But I think the important parts of your message are that when changes occur because of explicit intent by an individual (i.e., modified), it is done with careful forethought (e.g., based on use patterns), partnership (e.g., with land managers), and with an intent of sustainability. This to me is _not_ sanitizing. This is trail maintenance and is very distinct from someone building themselves a rock pile to smooth out a tech section they can't clear or removing a root because it messes up their flow.



Klurejr said:


> Sorry, but this is very very wrong.
> 
> The first time I experienced a "B-Line" was up at Mammoth Mountain on a purpose built trail made by professionals. This particular trails had "B-Lines" That were actually harder than the main trail for those with a higher skill level. This is on a trail system you pay to ride that is maintained by the Park Staff.
> 
> ...


That's fair.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I wish I had found this thread early in the discussion, but I'll just add my views in the 11th hour:

Can't ride a section or feature? Get better. It's that simple. Don't screw with what's there. 
Don't like walking those black sections on your blue trail? You have 3 options: 
walk it and try again another day,
session the section until you can ride it
Find a blue trail that doesn't have black features. 

Unless you built it, You do not have right to change it. 

I consider myself a good rider. There are trails locally that I know are above my skill level. I want to ride these, but know I'd have to abide by one of my above-listed 3 options. Sometime I walk, sometimes I choose a different trail. 

YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO RIDE EVERY TRAIL.

edit: in response to the PM from another member, yeah, I have sessioned sections as well. I have a Garmin log somewhere of me pedaling 2 miles out and then about an hour (probably 30 passes) on a 40-foot section of tech, climbing on my SS. I did it until my legs were jelly and then coasted home. I can now clean that section about 4/5 times, and have applied the skills to countless other similar tech sections, making me a better rider overall.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Giodog2000 said:


> And how are you gaining riding skills by walking a section ?


How are you gaining skills by exercising the ride-around option?



Giodog2000 said:


> Let me share something with you guys. What I love doing when I ride is going into trails i know are a little to technical for me just to stop once in a while and watch the more skilled riders rip through them like there is no tomorrow.


You won't be doing this on the beginners bypass.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

ARandomBiker said:


> I wish I had found this thread early in the discussion, but I'll just add my views in the 11th hour:
> 
> Can't ride a section or feature? Get better. It's that simple. Don't screw with what's there.
> Don't like walking those black sections on your blue trail? You have 3 options:
> ...


Bingo!

We have thicker skulled individuals in this thread that will be chiming in here shortly I presume.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bingo!
> 
> We have thicker skulled individuals in this thread that will be chiming in here shortly I presume.


Chiming in!

You rang???


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> How are you gaining skills by exercising the ride-around option?
> 
> You won't be doing this on the beginners bypass.




Friend or Flow: Are trails being too ?dumbed down?? | Dirt Rag


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I 100% agree that you have no right to change what the trail builder built.

I often ride in a national park forest. The single track designated for bikes is also used by hikers, hikers were on these trails for decades, they just allowed bikes a few years ago, working with a Sorba chapter. Recently some B lines have opened up and I worry they will be pointed out by anti-bike people as evidence that bikes should not be allowed.

I don't like failing at cleaning a section of trail but only because I didn't succeed, not because the trail is hard. Learning to ride through a tough section and accomplishing it is part of the pleasure of mountain biking, I don't like trails that are easy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Friend or Flow: Are trails being too ?dumbed down?? | Dirt Rag


Again, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Purposely built easy trails have their place, just as judiciously placed b-lines do on trails where they are part of the design. Neither is even remotely related to someone taking it upon themselves to dumb down a section of trail they had no part in creating or maintaining. Some trails/areas are MEANT to be hard. If you're not willing to rise to the challenge of difficult trails, it's not your right to change them into easy trails. Either deal with it, or go elsewhere and leave them for the folks that do enjoy them. There are more of us than you might think.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Again, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
> 
> Purposely built easy trails have their place, just as judiciously placed b-lines do on trails where they are part of the design. Neither is even remotely related to someone taking it upon themselves to dumb down a section of trail they had no part in creating or maintaining. Some trails/areas are MEANT to be hard. If you're not willing to rise to the challenge of difficult trails, it's not your right to change them into easy trails. Either deal with it, or go elsewhere and leave them for the folks that do enjoy them. There are more of us than you might think.


Obviously anything I bring to the table has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I post an article called : "Friend or Flow: Are trails being too "dumbed down?" and this article has nothing to do with it? lol 
Ok I said in another post that a little humor would do some of you guys some good so this is a joke right? Oh hahahahahahhhahahahahahah good one ;-)

Just read the article will you. They talk about what they did to an already existing trail system in Vermont. If you only had read this paragraph at the end you would see how related this article is with the subject we are talking about.

"All we had was an expert network," says John Atkinson of the trails in the Mad River Valley. It's a prime riding spot full of black- and double-black-diamond-level riding and a population that has been riding it for decades. Atkinson is president of the Mad River Riders and the main energy source behind new flow trails like Revolution and Blueberry Lake in Waitsfield and Warren, respectively. He says if he had asked his membership a few years ago what they wanted for the trails, we would have heard, "Don't change a thing." But he knew their club was missing an entire contingent of riders, like women, beginners, and kids, so he spearheaded the effort to bring more-diverse riding terrain by adding these flow-style trails that are designed to be approachable to as many riders as possible.

EDIT: Let me quote you: "Some trails/areas are MEANT to be hard. If you're not willing to rise to the challenge of difficult trails, it's not your right to change them into easy trails. Either deal with it, or go elsewhere and leave them for the folks that do enjoy them."

This thread has NOTHING to do with personal achievements. It's about the impacts of "Dumbing down/sanitizing" existing trails.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

he knew their club was missing an entire contingent of riders, like women, beginners, and kids, so he spearheaded the effort to bring more-diverse riding terrain by adding these flow-style trails that are designed to be approachable to as many riders as possible.

A lack of beginner level trails is indeed a problem, but the solution isnt to destroy the network that exists. The solution is to work with the land manager and guys building the trails to get new ones put in, or have the discussion to professionally, logically modify the best candidates for a lower skill level.
You don't just go out an stack rocks and dig stuff up because you don't like it.

or you could do like the rest of us did in the 80's, 90's and 00's: HTFU and ride what you can, walk what you can't and get better.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> he knew their club was missing an entire contingent of riders, like women, beginners, and kids, so he spearheaded the effort to bring more-diverse riding terrain by adding these flow-style trails that are designed to be approachable to as many riders as possible.
> 
> A lack of beginner level trails is indeed a problem, but the solution isnt to destroy the network that exists. The solution is to work with the land manager and guys building the trails to get new ones put in, or have the discussion to professionally, logically modify the best candidates for a lower skill level.
> You don't just go out an stack rocks and dig stuff up because you don't like it.
> ...


Agreed and you don't just add more tech stuff cause you find a trail too easy. Would this be fair to say also?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Agreed and you don't just add more tech stuff cause you find a trail too easy. Would this be fair to say also?


Correct, changing the trail away from the intent of the designers in either direction, easier or harder is frowned upon.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> If the trail system in question is not legal to begin with, no one has any legs to stand on to argue from. In that case the original trail is just as bad as any b-line or strava cheater line or any sanitation.


Ummm, no. The lack of respect for builders in this sport is appalling. You can choose to ride or not ride, but if you cross that line, the code is still the code.

This is one thing DJers get right. A lot of dj spots start as unsanctioned builds. Some get legitimized; some don't. But those riders understand that if you didn't build it - you don't mess with it. It's not about the law; law controls the lesser man.

In mountain, we suffer a high percentage of low investment riders. Many will not put in the work on the bike or with the shovel. Understand that if you are one of these people(not aimed at you, Klurejr), then your very ability to recreate is dependent upon the hard work of others. To tamper with that work is to spit in their face, and it reflects poor character.

Don't do it. Don't condone it. Don't stand idly and let it happen.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Obviously anything I bring to the table has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I post an article called : "Friend or Flow: Are trails being too "dumbed down?" and this article has nothing to do with it? lol
> Ok I said in another post that a little humor would do some of you guys some good so this is a joke right? Oh hahahahahahhhahahahahahah good one ;-)
> 
> Just read the article will you. They talk about what they did to an already existing trail system in Vermont. If you only had read this paragraph at the end you would see how related this article is with the subject we are talking about.
> ...


You really can't understand the difference between creating new and separate beginner trails through 'official channels' (which is what your post is talking about) and unskilled riders taking it upon themselves to just go ahead modify existing challenging trails that they find above their skill level? Seriously? Read through what I just wrote a bunch of times and see if it clicks.

Creating easier trails and trails with b-lines, etc with permission = OK
Removing/stacking rocks, creating cheater/b-lines around challenges on existing trails because you lack the skill to ride certain sections = NOT OK

And this fantasy of lots of riders going around putting expert level moves into the middle of beginner trails isn't something that you're going to encounter in real life.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Correct, changing the trail away from the intent of the designers in either direction, easier or harder is frowned upon.


Great so we probably all agree on this. Lets put aside our skill levels. here for a sec. Personally , I do not need to be a pilot to know that flying level is safer than making a loop. Lets only ask ourselves what are the impacts of encouriging this behaviour and why is there more and more signs that tails are beeing dumbed down.

I atempted in one of my very first post to express my own oppinion of why this practice is rising and why people are WORRIED about it. I said " because we live in an ageing population" ( in all spheres of activities btw). Hopefully you all agree with that proven reality. In a given area , there can only be so many trails system available. If these are illegal trails then too many and local residents will complain and have them shut down. In the case of parks/resorts etc there can only be so many because of evironmental/wild life preservation / other fields of activities etc etc. So , like someone pointed out ( ArandomBiker) ,and I quote "A lack of beginner level trails is indeed a problem". Becasue this is a growing sport, there is a demande for more accesible trails. Now we can't just build as much as we want now can we? Eventually , we'll need to "Dumb down" trails to please the majority. "Unfortunatly" guys , the older crowd (I'll include myself it this category at age 50) is also participatating in making this sport more popular. And the ageing population also are making demands ( they are not dead yet). Once, a loooong time ago , that same old fart was 20 and he would ride the double diamonds and getting hurt was not even in his faintest thoughs. But, he still want to continue his favorite activity but there is a LACK OF EASY TRAILS for him to continue what he loves doing. He doesn't feel taking on Golf , he never freaken liked the sport. 
He's probably not the one who will dumb down a trail for his own benefit or maybe he will but , because of our ageing population, it's only normal that trails are getting dumbed down to please everyone. Now if some of you are scared that you will loose something in the exchange , the article I posted earlier expresses exactly what will happen in your area. Local authority WILL respond to this new reality. And , in our case here in Quebec, Canada authorities WILL close the illegal trail system because nobody got along well enough to RESPECT the needs of other. 
The last trail I saw closed was after a guy cutting 18 trees and have them fall on the trail cause he was tired of the noise (dirt bike) , many years prior (and I saw this cause it was one of my favorite trail, he had put a big signe up it said : PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, slow down in this section to keep the noise level down cause this is the closest section to houses. 
A few years after he got fead up, took his chain saw and cut down trees. I took pictures of this if someone wants to see them I still must have them somewhere. It was awfull! Well , the owner of that land, lucky us , the government , closed the trails , put up signes saying anyone caught in those trails would be fined. 
And thats what is going to happen to your illegal trails eventually if you do not all get alone and show some tolerance. Again , this never was a problem before cause "OLD" people like me and this new frenzy for MTBing didn't exist before.

KEY WORDS:

-Population ageing
-Not enough Easy trails for new ageing population
-Frenzy to sport 
-Growing demande for accecability to MTBing from people of all ages
- Better get along or trails will be closed.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

ARandomBiker said:


> I wish I had found this thread early in the discussion, but I'll just add my views in the 11th hour:
> 
> Can't ride a section or feature? Get better. It's that simple. Don't screw with what's there.
> Don't like walking those black sections on your blue trail? You have 3 options:
> ...


Pretty much this!

I have been riding for 30+ years, and would be considered a solid intermediate rider. I could never imagine having the urge to change where I was riding. To me, the challenge is learning how to deal with what is there. The fun is the first couple encounters with "defeat", and then the progress towards victory. I ride both purpose-built, and naturally occurring trails, and would never even think of altering either. I am in no way a "trail builder", but I understand the ecology and environmental side of trail upkeep and construction, and once again, knowing that I am ignorant to the "how", I would never take it upon myself to step into that world. The only things I usually move fro mthe trail is garbage that otehr riders leave...which also baffles me to no extent..Clif Bar wrappers, water bottles, Ziplock Bags...WTF?

This thread had definitely made me think about the community I ride in, and how to be a positively contributing member...glad that I can get out on the trails and not "See" most od this drama


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Giodog2000 said:


> Great so we probably all agree on this. Lets put aside our skill levels. here for a sec. Personally , I do not need to be a pilot to know that flying level is safer than making a loop. Lets only ask ourselves what are the impacts of encouriging this behaviour and why is there more and more signs that tails are beeing dumbed down.
> 
> I atempted in one of my very first post to express my own oppinion of why this practice is rising and why people are WORRIED about it. I said " because we live in an ageing population" ( in all spheres of activities btw). Hopefully you all agree with that proven reality. In a given area , there can only be so many trails system available. If these are illegal trails then too many and local residents will complain and have them shut down. In the case of parks/resorts etc there can only be so many because of evironmental/wild life preservation / other fields of activities etc etc. So , like someone pointed out ( ArandomBiker) ,and I quote "A lack of beginner level trails is indeed a problem". Becasue this is a growing sport, there is a demande for more accesible trails. Now we can't just build as much as we want now can we? Eventually , we'll need to "Dumb down" trails to please the majority. "Unfortunatly" guys , the older crowd (I'll include myself it this category at age 50) is also participatating in making this sport more popular. And the ageing population also are making demands ( they are not dead yet). Once, a loooong time ago , that same old fart was 20 and he would ride the double diamonds and getting hurt was not even in his faintest thoughs. But, he still want to continue his favorite activity but there is a LACK OF EASY TRAILS for him to continue what he loves doing. He doesn't feel taking on Golf , he never freaken liked the sport.
> He's probably not the one who will dumb down a trail for his own benefit or maybe he will but , because of our ageing population, it's only normal that trails are getting dumbed down to please everyone. Now if some of you are scared that you will loose something in the exchange , the article I posted earlier expresses exactly what will happen in your area. Local authority WILL respond to this new reality. And , in our case here in Quebec, Canada authorities WILL close the illegal trail system because nobody got along well enough to RESPECT the needs of other.
> ...


As I told you before, the population in general may be getting older but the mtb population is not. It is not a direct correlation. You are still talking apples and oranges. You were leaving this thread pages ago.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Pretty much this!
> 
> I have been riding for 30+ years, and would be considered a solid intermediate rider. I could never imagine having the urge to change where I was riding. To me, the challenge is learning how to deal with what is there. The fun is the first couple encounters with "defeat", and then the progress towards victory. I ride both purpose-built, and naturally occurring trails, and would never even think of altering either. I am in no way a "trail builder", but I understand the ecology and environmental side of trail upkeep and construction, and once again, knowing that I am ignorant to the "how", I would never take it upon myself to step into that world. The only things I usually move fro mthe trail is garbage that otehr riders leave...which also baffles me to no extent..Clif Bar wrappers, water bottles, Ziplock Bags...WTF?
> 
> This thread had definitely made me think about the community I ride in, and how to be a positively contributing member...glad that I can get out on the trails and not "See" most od this drama


Bingo! Someone else that gets it.

I don't even play bingo but on an "occasional" post in here forces me to.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Giodog 2000. What are you talking about.? Are you concentrating and inhaling?

[-Population ageing
-Not enough Easy trails for new ageing population
-Frenzy to sport 
-Growing demande for accecability to MTBing from people of all ages
- Better get along or trails will be closed.[/QUOTE]

Why do you equate older riders with needing easy trails? There are plenty of easy trails, they are called dirt paths, dirt roads and bike paths. 53 years young here. Did you watch that video Slappy put up? Thats my go to local. Lots of rocks everywhere. All the old riders I pedal with kick ass and have been for decades. Maybe you should just stay in Canada, and not paint with such a wide brush how we should do things in the USA. Ummkay? Your problems our not our problems. As said before, do you ski down a black diamond trail and complain about the giant , steep moguls or pick a trail suited to your skills? Do you not get what so many people here are saying? Dude. I do lots of trail work all over MA and some in NH. In that vid, the trails are constrained by wetland, topography, slope and ROCKS. So much of the trails there are all bedrock granite. We are just picking lines that will have some flow, good water drainage and will work for the most part in 2 directions. So, update. you stay in Canada and keep sending down the 40 creek whiskey, cheers. Or try this, just build all the easy trail where you are.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> KEY WORDS:
> 
> -Population ageing
> -Not enough Easy trails for new ageing population
> ...


Sorry, but I'm 49 and most of the guys I ride with are also in the 'aging' category. We don't want trails neutered. Most builders I know are also 40+, right up into the 70's (like my father, who helps build tons of trail, much of it well beyond his skill level). The older guys are definitely not the ones looking for easy trails, at least in this part of the country.

In your VT example, are you aware that the reason there's a big push for easy terrain is because of groups trying to make money off mtb there? They want to build a bunch of generic easy 'flow' trails to package the 'mtb experience' for tourists that aren't necessarily mountain bikers, like a Disney version of what mountain biking in New England is actually about. It's mainly about giving the Bed'n'Breakfast bunch something 'adventurous' to do outside for a couple hours before the head out antiquing. Luckily, where I live, we're not trying to sell anything to anybody, so trails tend to be hand-built works of art, by riders, for riders, instead of the currently ubiquitous generic dirt sidewalks commonly referred to as 'flow trails'.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

WTF does age have to do with any of this?

Does he really think old folks need sidewalks or something? Leave the trails alone.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Giodog2000 is trolling.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Giodog2000 is trolling.


That thought is becoming increasingly prevalent.


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

I guess in all this, I simply don't understand why people feel so entitled they shouldn't have to dismount during a ride if they are incapable of riding a section or obstacle. It doesn't seem like most people would disagree that modifying trails that you didn't create or aren't on a sanctioned trail crew with a specific plan, isn't acceptable, but where did this existential right to stay on my bike without compromise come from?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

AllMountin' said:


> Ummm, no. The lack of respect for builders in this sport is appalling. You can choose to ride or not ride, but if you cross that line, the code is still the code.
> 
> This is one thing DJers get right. A lot of dj spots start as unsanctioned builds. Some get legitimized; some don't. But those riders understand that if you didn't build it - you don't mess with it. It's not about the law; law controls the lesser man.
> 
> ...


Since it seems you do not understand property rights and the proper channels for trail building within the confines of the agencies that manager property, let me enlighten you.

Illegal building, is* Illegal building* and no one who build's illegally has any right to complain when their Illegal trails get destroyed/changed or otherwise.

You want to discuss respect? Illegal trail building is the biggest slap in the face to the word respect, Illegal trail builders do not respect the property Owners/Managers nor do they respect other riders if their activity endangers other trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Since it seems you do not understand property rights and the proper channels for trail building within the confines of the agencies that manager property, let me enlighten you.
> 
> Illegal building, is* Illegal building* and no one who build's illegally has any right to complain when their Illegal trails get destroyed/changed or otherwise.
> 
> You want to discuss respect? Illegal trail building is the biggest slap in the face to the word respect, Illegal trail builders do not respect the property Owners/Managers nor do they respect other riders if their activity endangers other trails.


Meh...it was really brought up with regard to DJs rather than MTB trails.

DJ is a whole separate game, and it's played almost 100% 'illegally'. Sanctioned or not, if someone happens to stumble onto a spot they didn't help build, it's universally considered a seriously d-bag move to mess with anything. Hell, I personally wouldn't even ride a set of jumps without first finding out who built them and what the deal with them is. A lot of places, it's just accepted that you don't ride at all until you've earned your keep behind a shovel. "No dig, no ride" is how it works, and lots of respect is shown to the creators.

Also unlike MTB where you might get a tongue-lashing, in DJ culture it's not unheard of that if you decide to knock some lips down to make things easier for you, you may well have to deal with someone throwing hands. Or shovels, and rocks, and your bike. Just how it is. Personally I think it's great.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


>


Just out of curiosity....did you post this to show me what a hard trail is? Is this a blue, black or double black?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Giodog2000 said:


> Just out of curiosity....did you post this to show me what a hard trail is? Is this a blue, black or double black?


Looks brown to me.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Looks brown to me.


with a hint of grey


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

None of our trails are labeled with difficulty, anywhere, Most don't have signs. Sometimes there is post or marker. Just turns in the woods. Get an idea of the terrain we have to work with? Get off your soapbox, get some skillz dude. Coming to Nemba fest in June at KT? Lots of flow trails with signs. Bring your climbing legs.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm not going to Snip down your entire post (#229) to get the one thing addressed at me but; the lack of beginner trails is described in that one quote. There is no shortage of green trails in any of the areas I've lived in over the last 20 years. This isnt a problem this sport has in real life. Only on the internet. Don't cherry-pick the one thing you want to. 
For the record, my "don't touch it" attitude applies to making it harder as well.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This whole marking of trails using the long known signage from snow skiing. 

Green
Blue 
Black 

Just ride the damn trail and work at getting better. If it's too difficult just hike a bike it. Stop altering trails to your lack of skill level before we lose all trail rights, ya bunch of selfish ingrates.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

leeboh said:


> None of our trails are labeled with difficulty, anywhere, Most don't have signs. Sometimes there is post or marker. Just turns in the woods. Get an idea of the terrain we have to work with? Get off your soapbox, get some skillz dude. Coming to Nemba fest in June at KT? Lots of flow trails with signs. Bring your climbing legs.


Don't get too upset on this next one guys... it doesn't aply to all of you. 
I'm not sure how you all got this impression but I think you are underestimating my skills just a tad. It's ok but, the way you guys talked , I WAS under the impression you were all pros. And after watching that last vid , clearly posted to show what skills are, I must say I'm quite disappointed. I'm sure some of you guys can rip , but I kinda sense this is not the case here. I'm actually pretty sure most of you are at most average. What's obvious ( and it does transpire after talking to some of you for a while) is some of you think that you are better than you really are. 
I can see now how some of you are worried about sanitizing trails. In my neck of the woods , that trail in the vid is a blue trail. Plenty of obstacles but flat. I can see it now. If you dumb down that trail , people will say you are riding green trails. It's gona be hard on your big fat ego's.

Skill up , and come ride in my neck of the woods.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

AllMountin' said:


> This is one thing DJers get right . . . if you didn't build it - you don't mess with it.
> 
> Don't do it. Don't condone it. Don't stand idly and let it happen.


This is precisely the mentality that I want to see become prevalent throughout the MTB community.



sXeXBMXer said:


> This thread had definitely made me think about the community I ride in, and how to be a positively contributing member...glad that I can get out on the trails and not "See" most od this drama


I sincerely hope that there are others who have had similar insights. Kudos.



chazpat said:


> I often ride in a national park forest. The single track designated for bikes is also used by hikers, hikers were on these trails for decades, they just allowed bikes a few years ago, working with a Sorba chapter. Recently some B lines have opened up and I worry they will be pointed out by anti-bike people as evidence that bikes should not be allowed.


This is a very realistic possibility, and one of the key arguments successfully made by the anti-bike crowd, keeping bikes off the National Scenic Trails and out of similar federally protected lands (don't anyone go saying that "W" word now, ya hear!?).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Don't get too upset on this next one guys... it doesn't aply to all of you.
> I'm not sure how you all got this impression but I think you are underestimating my skills just a tad. It's ok but, the way you guys talked , I WAS under the impression you were all pros. And after watching that last vid , clearly posted to show what skills are, I must say I'm quite disappointed. I'm sure some of you guys can rip , but I kinda sense this is not the case here. I'm actually pretty sure most of you are at most average. What's obvious ( and it does transpire after talking to some of you for a while) is some of you think that you are better than you really are.
> I can see now how some of you are worried about sanitizing trails. In my neck of the woods , that trail in the vid is a blue trail. Plenty of obstacles but flat. I can see it now. If you dumb down that trail , people will say you are riding green trails. It's gona be hard on your big fat ego's.
> 
> Skill up , and come ride in my neck of the woods.


You're a cocky e-prick.

I have no idea whose video that is; I wasn't presenting it as fodder for some sort of riding skills critique session or saying it's the gnarliest **** out around, or that the rider is some trail god. Don't even know him, but knowing the terrain, I thought the he did a pretty solid job; guess I'm not so much a skills snob as you, eh? The guy dealt with whatever the trail presented him, I'd call it good effort all around. Maybe if you ever meet him, you can tell him he sucks. Make sure you do it after putting in 25 or 30 miles of no-dabbing those trails, since you're so hardcore. 

What that clip was intended as was an example of some very popular XC trails in the area. Plenty of tech, few b'lines, and people love it. But those same trails have actually seen people march out into the woods with sledgehammers to smash rocks out of tough spots. It's friggin' ridiculous.

Once again, you've completely missed the point.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

It's become quite apparent at this point that some folks are merely here to troll. Let's let them starve and try to keep this thread alive. I don't want to see it veer too far off course and get closed.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> You're a *cocky e-prick*.
> 
> guess I'm not so much a skills *snob as you*, eh?


I'd say you come accross as a troll and a snob yourself my friend. 
And no , you are not as skilled as I am. I eat trails like in your favorite video before I go riding. Let me be cocky with you particularly cause you've been so nice to me.



007 said:


> It's become quite apparent at this point that some folks are merely here to troll. Let's let them starve and try to keep this thread alive. I don't want to see it veer too far off course and get closed.


007...James , can I call you James? ;-) Listen. I don't want this thread to be closed. It's a GEM of a thread you got there buddy. The most popular thread in this forum in years .....you must be proud. Lets keep it running to show our community just how snobs we are. I thing roadies will loose their title in a few years. MTB SNOBS we are! 
Oh and to stay whithin topic (cause we want to post within topics it's the rule) , I'm for b-lines but I never modify a trail. I'm against sanitization.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Giodog2000 said:


> The most popular thread in this forum in years


Ha, not even close!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Giodog2000 said:


> Don't get too upset on this next one guys... it doesn't aply to all of you.
> I'm not sure how you all got this impression but I think you are underestimating my skills just a tad. It's ok but, the way you guys talked , I WAS under the impression you were all pros. And after watching that last vid , clearly posted to show what skills are, I must say I'm quite disappointed. I'm sure some of you guys can rip , but I kinda sense this is not the case here. I'm actually pretty sure most of you are at most average. What's obvious ( and it does transpire after talking to some of you for a while) is some of you think that you are better than you really are.
> I can see now how some of you are worried about sanitizing trails. In my neck of the woods , that trail in the vid is a blue trail. Plenty of obstacles but flat. I can see it now. If you dumb down that trail , people will say you are riding green trails. It's gona be hard on your big fat ego's.
> 
> Skill up , and come ride in my neck of the woods.


 Average? I'm a legend in my own mind. Most folks who are "good" get spit out and beat up at Harold Parker SF. Every time. Honest invite, this years Nemba fest at KT. Our pop ups will be near the fire pit, I will be the one making mahattans and talking trash. Or come to HP at our Wicked Ride, the last Sunday in October, I will be slinging chili for 700 of my closest friends. Chili dogs, corn bread or ribs if I know you. And some B lines are sanitizing, FYI. Maybe we will agree to disagree on this one. Time for poutine? Nobody really cares who is better or not, I ride with all kinds of skill level riders. Most chapters host rides catering to all levels. Ride, rest, repeat. Enjoy the trails, leave them in better shape for the next rider, that is all that matters.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> you are not as skilled as I am. I eat trails like in your favorite video before I go riding.


Uh huh. I'm sure you are quite the e-rider, and have an enormous e-dong too.

Keep e-ripping! :thumbsup:


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

leeboh said:


> you should just stay in Canada So, update. you stay in Canada and keep sending down the 40 creek whiskey, cheers.





leeboh said:


> Honest invite, this years Nemba fest at KT. Our pop ups will be near the fire pit, I will be the one making mahattans and talking trash. Or come to HP at our Wicked Ride, the last Sunday in October,


Make up your mind mate ;-) Should I stay in CND or accept your invite? lol

All jokes, sarcasm and what not aside, I'm sure this conversation would have turned out much differently with a good whiskey around a camp fire after a nice ride huh? Shots on me if we ever meet someday ;-)



slapheadmofo said:


> Uh huh. I'm sure you are quite the e-rider, and have an enormous e-dong too.
> 
> Keep e-ripping! :thumbsup:


As for you Mofo....come on it's time for our e-meds. You know when we get agitated like this its not good for our e- heart.

EDIT: I forgot the thumbs up..... :thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Clean up on aisle 8 please.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I agree, for the most part.
> 
> But, alternate perspective (that I don't necessarily subscribe to, FWIW):
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the difficulties that illegal trails create.

For a bit of background, the original loop was (professionally) built on BLM land that will even be auctioned off to become luxury homes (it carefully avoided undeveloped private land and more protected areas), so there's very little concern about conservation, and absolutely no chance that the BLM would want to invest time and effort to develop a recreational resource that will eventually be erased. The BLM has asked that trails not be built in some areas (inside the National Conservation Area), which was completely disregarded. Needless to say, that is not helpful at all.

In general, I avoid the trails in question for a number of reasons, and their legality isn't at the top of the list either. They are slightly more convenient, so they do get a lot of traffic...and a lot more people out there continuing to build and then modify illegal trails. Broken windows theory at work, I suppose.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Clean up on aisle 8 please.


Yes.

No more personal attacks. No name calling. If you guys keep doing that your posts will be deleted.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Yes.
> 
> No more personal attacks. No name calling. If you guys keep doing that your posts will be deleted.


Agreed. 
Guys. really sry if I offended some of you. I'm a type A Personality lol


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Almost surprised this hasn't been locked down yet. Pretty obvious there is a troll at work...


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Yes.
> 
> No more personal attacks. No name calling. If you guys keep doing that your posts will be deleted.





dirtrider76 said:


> Almost surprised this hasn't been locked down yet. Pretty obvious there is a troll at work...


Clean up on aisle 8 please.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2016)

clean up on all aisles.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Giodog2000 said:


> Clean up on aisle 8 please.


Haha, no one called anyone a name


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Delete


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Giodog2000 said:


> Clean up on aisle 8 please.


Jeez, at least pick another aisle. :incazzato:


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Jeez, at least pick another aisle. :incazzato:


lol... so many aisle so little time.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Giodog2000 said:


> *Mod: please erase my post. Thx.*


You can do this yourself. There's a little edit icon at the bottom of your post. Feel free to use it liberally.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Mookie said:


> You can do this yourself. There's a little edit icon at the bottom of your post. Feel free to use it liberally.


Done, I just deleted the text but can't delete the post.... Shouldn't have responded to that one. My bad.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Stop sanitizing threads.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

net wurker said:


> Stop sanitizing threads.


I agree! B-lines around the real technical parts of threads are ok though as long as they're sustainable.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Giodog2000 said:


> I'd say you come accross as a troll and a snob yourself my friend.
> And no , you are not as skilled as I am. I eat trails like in your favorite video before I go riding. Let me be cocky with you particularly cause you've been so nice to me.
> 
> 007...James , can I call you James? ;-) Listen. I don't want this thread to be closed. It's a GEM of a thread you got there buddy. The most popular thread in this forum in years .....you must be proud. Lets keep it running to show our community just how snobs we are. I thing roadies will loose their title in a few years. MTB SNOBS we are!
> Oh and to stay whithin topic (cause we want to post within topics it's the rule) , I'm for b-lines but I never modify a trail. I'm against sanitization.


So let me get this straight, You need to ride the easy line, but can hammer NE tech like a champ. I'm confused.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

leeboh said:


> Average? I'm a legend in my own mind. Most folks who are "good" get spit out and beat up at Harold Parker SF. Every time. Honest invite, this years Nemba fest at KT. Our pop ups will be near the fire pit, I will be the one making mahattans and talking trash. Or come to HP at our Wicked Ride, the last Sunday in October, I will be slinging chili for 700 of my closest friends. Chili dogs, corn bread or ribs if I know you. And some B lines are sanitizing, FYI. Maybe we will agree to disagree on this one. Time for poutine? Nobody really cares who is better or not, I ride with all kinds of skill level riders. Most chapters host rides catering to all levels. Ride, rest, repeat. Enjoy the trails, leave them in better shape for the next rider, that is all that matters.


Also, all I know about HP, especially this last Wicked on the wet rocks, is there were a lot of people for the first 16 miles and the trails were well beaten, they weren't so well ridden and we didn't see anyone the last 7. Granted we were the last to the lot, but...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

net wurker said:


> Stop sanitizing threads.


I agree, all I wanted done was aisle 8 liquid detergent spill cleaned up. I yelled at those kids to stop getting rambunctious.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

mattyice said:


> So let me get this straight, You need to ride the easy line, but can hammer NE tech like a champ. I'm confused.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


I'd quote myself but kinda fed up of people not reading. I said I didn't do well with 10 feet drop outs. At my age I'm happy when there is a b-line. And sometimes when I'm just not in the zone and i don't feel it, I appreciate b-lines on very tech stuff. Doesn't mean one is a bad rider for that.



Cleared2land said:


> Well, everyone who has posted on this thread saw what you wrote, so you can't hide it by deleting.


I did not delete it cause I'm ashame of it. I deleted cause I got carried away and I never should have engaged in another fight of calling names as recomended by a Moderator and I think many of us made peace after that , I suggest you do the same and don't try to dig up dirt.....

*EDIT:* Oh and BTW how about from now on when we post , we *stay on topic* instead of trying to stir some old **** up.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

10 foot drops aside, I don't care what level you ride at, you ride HP and you will walk your bike. The 'B-lines' in NE are way worse then the actual trail. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

mattyice said:


> 10 foot drops aside, I don't care what level you ride at, you ride HP and you will walk your bike. The 'B-lines' in NE are way worse then the actual trail.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


I'll go even further , some days , I hit the trails and for some reason after 30 min it;s not happening. So I just change plans, go ride in blue or green trails and I chill for a few hours. I know how to walk also.

Is this going anywhere Matt?


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

I don't understand this blue and green trail business. Are you riding lift service? If that's the case you shouldn't be altering anything. Our XC trails aren't marked in NE. Ride at your own risk. If you come across a 12' roller, you deal with it. If you find yourself in 200 yards of rock garden from hell, you deal with it. No signage, no warnings, no altering. Just ride it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Its pretty simple really. If you can ride it then ride it. If you can't then get of yer bike and walk it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mattyice said:


> 10 foot drops aside, I don't care what level you ride at, you ride HP and you will walk your bike. The 'B-lines' in NE are way worse then the actual trail.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


That's a good point.

The trails here in western VA are already the smoothest lines possible. If you go off-trail, well, good luck to you.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

mattyice said:


> I don't understand this blue and green trail business. Are you riding lift service? If that's the case you shouldn't be altering anything. Our XC trails aren't marked in NE. Ride at your own risk. If you come across a 12' roller, you deal with it. If you find yourself in 200 yards of rock garden from hell, you deal with it. No signage, no warnings, no altering. Just ride it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Matt We have plenty of illegal trails so lets forget about those. They are not rated with those ski-like pictogrammes obviously. The paying lift resorts are highly supervised so no tampering with trails there. 
But , we have lots of free legal trail system around here. It completly relies on volontiers (not any different from anywhere in the world ) Huge play grounds and you can easily get lost in there. They are open to everyone (free). We need to have maps printed out and signs or else these places would get out of hand and closed. On weekends , you can easily have 150 cars parked. It's such a vaste terretory that you hardly meet one another. Those kinda spots , those are the ones that people feel they can do pretty much all they want. We've seen smaller trail systems get ruined because nobody got organised to name the trails , make signs and maps. Once it gets out of hand it's over. They even have facebook account that you can visit before you leave home to know if the trails are open or closed after it rained for example. It's not much different than where you live I'm sure.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Stay on legal trails.
Do not alter any trail.
If an alternate easier route is legally built by the trail crew you may use it.
Do not build alternate routes to suit your riding ability.
If a section is too difficult for your skill level simply dismount and walk it.

It's not difficult people. If you continue this rogue selfish behavior you're going to ruin this sport for all of us. Other trail users already look down upon our sport, let's not amplify their hatred towards us.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Respect the trail.

Ride it, walk it, or find an easier trail. 

We don't don't need to dumb down a trail or mandate a bypass to accommodate the masses.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Stay on legal trails.
> Do not alter any trail.
> If an alternate easier route is legally built by the trail crew you may use it.
> Do not build alternate routes to suit your riding ability.
> ...





Cleared2land said:


> Respect the trail.
> 
> Ride it, walk it, or find an easier trail.
> 
> We don't don't need to dumb down a trail or mandate a bypass to accommodate the masses.


All true but there is a fine line that everyone needs to be aware of ( I'll talk about what's happening around here). Those free legal trails I was talking about , authorities and land owners monitor whats going on. The moment they see people do not get along and start doing crazy things to nature and wild life, It's over. They will take charge either by closing it or making them paying access only. So sometimes it is worth compromising a little. 
I'm not to familiar with the Vermont situation , but I bet thats what happened over there. Nobody wanted to give in a little so the authorities took action. Is it better now? some will say yes but those who were there ripping good hard un-sanitized trails feel they lost something for sure.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

Wow. Quite the thread.

Being more of a trailbuilder than rider here in Pennsylvania where everything is rocks, roots, and logs I'll say this as one of the original creator of a fairly-popular sanctioned trail:

1. Newer trails suitable for most riders should be built with the A-line being easy and appropriate well-designed B-line features to the side for those who want them. Less drama that way and minimal rogue work - everyone gets what they want from the start. Older, more tech trails are another story - don't screw with them.

2. Again, don't screw with a trail. I don't care your age, moto background, need for speed, whatever it is IDGAF, just take the time to find the approved trailcrew and give back a little. Find out why things are the way they are first and then make rational suggestions on how they could be made better. Don't call serious trailbuilders officially approved to maintain trails pretentious snobs either - they're giving up ride time swinging pick axes in the heat, mud, cold etc. so others can have fun. 

3. At the end of the day, the landmanager calls the shots and should be respected by everyone whether you agree with them or not. Don't be that guy aggravating them to dislike mtbrs because you did rogue work. Bikes being banned from the woods helps no one ever.

4. Stravatards ripping up the woods with cheater shortcuts and running other users off the trail or else locking bars, you guys are the worst kind of idiots.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

Giodog2000 said:


> Matt We have plenty of illegal trails so lets forget about those. They are not rated with those ski-like pictogrammes obviously. The paying lift resorts are highly supervised so no tampering with trails there.
> But , we have lots of free legal trail system around here. It completly relies on volontiers (not any different from anywhere in the world ) Huge play grounds and you can easily get lost in there. They are open to everyone (free). We need to have maps printed out and signs or else these places would get out of hand and closed. On weekends , you can easily have 150 cars parked. It's such a vaste terretory that you hardly meet one another. Those kinda spots , those are the ones that people feel they can do pretty much all they want. We've seen smaller trail systems get ruined because nobody got organised to name the trails , make signs and maps. Once it gets out of hand it's over. They even have facebook account that you can visit before you leave home to know if the trails are open or closed after it rained for example. It's not much different than where you live I'm sure.


Well we don't mark multi use or MTB trails round here. I also live across the street from a 4300 acre MTB playground.

It's all very much legal and very not marked. Good luck and Godspeed.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

mattyice said:


> Well we don't mark multi use or MTB trails round here. I also live across the street from a 4300 acre MTB playground.


Interesting point. Do you think this could make a difference in areas where sanitizing is a problem?

Trails look more official , getting a map handed out to you before you start riding makes one realize this is a very organised system and reminds you that there are people behind all that hard work. While riding , at a glance you can see if you are entering a trail that is just too much for your skill level.

It doesn't fix everything. But I think it helps preserve the trails???

EDIT: Example of free legal trails maps: http://www.velo.qc.ca/rep_sentiers/cartes/SentierID204_af249cc4d6b4ac3110488ce2d7f2d418.pdf


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2016)

Mookie said:


> Its pretty simple really. If you can ride it then ride it. If you can't then get off yer bike and walk it.


i subscribe to this.......and do this without shame.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Trails look more official , getting a map handed out to you before you start riding makes one realize this is a very organised system and reminds you that there are people behind all that hard work. While riding , at a glance you can see if you are entering a trail that is just too much for your skill level.
> 
> It doesn't fix everything. But I think it helps preserve the trails???
> 
> EDIT: Example of free legal trails maps: http://www.velo.qc.ca/rep_sentiers/cartes/SentierID204_af249cc4d6b4ac3110488ce2d7f2d418.pdf


Sounds great. And I'm assuming you would be the one willing to be out there on your own time, standing by a trailhead all day every day, handing out the maps you created and printed? And you could pull together a bunch of other people to man all the other trailheads in your region?


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds great. And I'm assuming you would be the one willing to be out there on your own time, standing by a trailhead all day every day, handing out the maps you created and printed? And you could pull together a bunch of other people to man all the other trailheads in your region?


Most places I went , maps are available on their web page (still talking about free legal trails here btw) or , it will be mentionned a nearby store or bike shop where you can get the official map. I know a place they sell it for 2$ or voluntary donnation. While riding there are also "You are Here" kinda maps so you can take a picture of that also. 
Anyways , you have them also in many of your trails systems in the USA. I was just pointing out that for those who do not have a system like this , this could help send a clear message that you can't just come ride and do whatever you want to, specially not to the trails. Yup, I give back whatever I can and possible for me to places like that cause I know how hard these people fight to keep things how they are.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Clayncedar said:


> Wow. Quite the thread.
> 
> Being more of a trailbuilder than rider here in Pennsylvania where everything is rocks, roots, and logs I'll say this as one of the original creator of a fairly-popular sanctioned trail:
> 
> ...


 Agreed and excellent points. You left out my favorite trail work day( not), rain/drizzle with mosquitoes.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds great. And I'm assuming you would be the one willing to be out there on your own time, standing by a trailhead all day every day, handing out the maps you created and printed? And you could pull together a bunch of other people to man all the other trailheads in your region?


Sounds like a typical NEMBA approach to me.


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## dezzrat1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Clayncedar said:


> Wow. Quite the thread.
> 
> Being more of a trailbuilder than rider here in Pennsylvania where everything is rocks, roots, and logs I'll say this as one of the original creator of a fairly-popular sanctioned trail:
> 
> ...


What he said.....


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Crankout said:


> Sounds like a typical NEMBA approach to me.


*Is the NEMBA-like approach something that is appreciated?* 
I think what I'm trying to describe sounds pretty much like NEMBA (from what I can see on the web page).


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> Most places I went , maps are available on their web page (still talking about free legal trails here btw) or , it will be mentionned a nearby store or bike shop where you can get the official map. I know a place they sell it for 2$ or voluntary donnation. While riding there are also "You are Here" kinda maps so you can take a picture of that also.
> Anyways , you have them also in many of your trails systems in the USA. I was just pointing out that for those who do not have a system like this , this could help send a clear message that you can't just come ride and do whatever you want to, specially not to the trails. Yup, I give back whatever I can and possible for me to places like that cause I know how hard these people fight to keep things how they are.


There is a Trail System near my mom's home in Oregon (I live in SoCal) called Cathedral Hills.
Cathedral Hills | Grants Pass Tourism, OR - Official Website
They have an official trail map as pdf you can download:
http://rideoregonride.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Cathedral-Hills-Trails.pdf

The trails are multi-use and have trail rating signs of Green Circle (Beginner) Blue Square (Intermediate) and Black Diamond (Advanced). I was kinda surprised they had such designations, but I liked it, help keep the newer riders off the harder stuff.

Though the black diamond really just meant steeper, there was some bridges and a few sorta berms, but nothing technical.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

DJ tells me it's important to sanitize snails. What say you?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Giodog2000 said:


> *Is the NEMBA-like approach something that is appreciated?*
> I think what I'm trying to describe sounds pretty much like NEMBA (from what I can see on the web page).


There are maps of some places available online if people bother to download them. Very little as far as on-site signage or maps in New England though.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Clayncedar said:


> Wow. Quite the thread.
> 
> Being more of a trailbuilder than rider here in Pennsylvania where everything is rocks, roots, and logs I'll say this as one of the original creator of a fairly-popular sanctioned trail:
> 
> ...


Bingo!
And that's my 3rd bingo in this thread, what do I win?


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bingo!
> And that's my 3rd bingo in this thread, what do I win?


Backcountry Awesome Strap. And socks.


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

While user education does play a role in reducing unwanted trail modifications, it is unrealistic to think that is THE SOLUTION.

The bigger factors are Trail/Trail System design and Trail Management.

Like it or not we are talking about trails on public land. Hard core mountain bikers are just a small fraction of the general public. The general public as much right to use our public land as we do, so unless you figure out how to manage them you will spend the rest of your life fighting an uphill battle.

The first step is to understand what segments of the general public will want to use the trail. 

Trails in urban areas are likely to get lots of inexperienced and less skilled trail users. They will also likely be used by hikers, trail runners, kids, fisherman, etc…. In most urban areas, land is at a premium, so you will likely have less miles of trail that get heavy usage. 

Trails in Rural Parks, may still get pretty heavy usage, but there may be room for more trails and the trail users may have a higher level of out-door experience.

Trails in Remote / Rugged locations, may have a much smaller and higher skilled user group. You may not need or want to provide easy options that tempt inexperience people to get too deep in the Forest.
The second step is to design a trail system that is appropriate for the location. 

In an urban area, you likely would need to design easier trails for the masses with the option for advanced B lines for more experienced riders.
In rural park, you may have enough land to build a stacked loop system with plenty of beginner, intermediate, and expert trails. If the trail system is well thought out and the expert trails have qualifiers at the trail entrances, then you can get by without B lines on the advanced trails. If you can’t build a stacked loop trail system, then B lines are an option as well. And yes, B-Lines can be incorporated into a stacked loop system.

In remote locations, the lesser skilled trail users may not be willing to go that far into the back country, not have restrooms, be willing to cover that much distance, or be good enough at reading maps, etc… to use the trails. And the land may be rugged enough that there just isn’t any way to ride around tough spots. Here you are more likely to be able to just build an advanced trail. You can also likely get away with some trail building technics that wouldn’t hold up on a more heavily used trail system.

The third step is user management. Yes user education is part of this. Most trail users are good folks who if educated will respect local trail builders. But of course there can also be small number of difficult trail users. The key here is not let them win. If they move a rock, put a bigger rock back in place. If they open up a cheater line, close it off. It may also mean tearing out an expert feature built on an easy trail. Basically make it clear that you will out work them. In cases where it goes back in forth, leaving a note or working to figure out who they are can come into play and in most cases a constructive face to face conversation can resolve the issue. The last resort being bringing in the land manager or law enforcement. 

This just the clif notes version, but I hope helps folks see the bigger picture. 

So what happens if there isn’t an overall plan? Let’s look at the worst case. 

Let’s say we have a legacy trail that wasn’t built very sustainably. It was built to have an easy trail surface, but erosion has caused parts of the trail to become challenging. The trail is in a high trail use location and connects two areas that all trail users want to get to. Let’s add in that there isn’t a formal trail maintenance team (staff or volunteer) working with the land manager. So some trail users see an easy trial with some eroded section that need to be fixed or avoided. Advanced riders see an expert trail with some easy sections (just walk the hard stuff). Riders on both sides take it upon themselves to fix the problem. So some folks are making hard spots easier, while others are making easy spots harder. When one group undoes the other work, then people go onto the internet and complain about situation. Then the two side start going back and forth on line and nothing productive comes of it. The end.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

GeePhroh said:


> Backcountry Awesome Strap. And socks.


Here's your socks...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Crankout said:


> Sounds like a typical NEMBA approach to me.


 Or the new DCR and sometimes Nemba approach. Put up a kisok with a map. Riders can then take a photo with their phone. Seems easy. Paper maps work, yes. More usual is a download, strava or other bike route already loaded or an online map resource. Or do what I do, note the position of the sun and make some lefts.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Getting so tired of this argument.

It's always the guy with a bike that makes the trails easier who's crying about trails being too easy.

I'll agree to some extent that people just need to ride the trail, and walk what they can't, BUT was the hard technical section you enjoy always that difficult, or did it erode over time? Is the trail being "sanitized" or repaired?

It's a constant argument in my area, and some trails have been built to be more technical from the beginning. Guess what....a few years later, they're completely un-ridable. Might be good as a trials course, but that's about it.

The biggest issue for me in my area is non-bike groups installing stairs/steps. It's just infuriating. Totally unsustainable, and ignores the needs of an entire user group.

B-lines are probably the solution. Doesn't matter it's a cheater line to make it easier, or a harder line for those who want a challenge. And really who cares if somebody stacks some rocks or whatever to make a cheater line. As long as it leaves a more challenging line for you, just ride your line and mind your own business.

Lastly, if you're not actively involved in building/maintaining the trails you're riding, you have no right to complain about them. Get involved, or smile and say thank you for the trails you've been given.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> It's always the guy with a bike that makes the trails easier who's crying about trails being too easy.
> .


Not at all the case IME. It's typically those with an XC-racer/Strava mentality that make things easier so they can be 'faster'. They usually worship carbon and wear 'kits' that cost as much as my old 26" steel hardtail.


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> There is a Trail System near my mom's home in Oregon (I live in SoCal) called Cathedral Hills.
> Cathedral Hills | Grants Pass Tourism, OR - Official Website
> They have an official trail map as pdf you can download:
> http://rideoregonride.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Cathedral-Hills-Trails.pdf
> ...


You got it buddy. 
Plus , this sytem is a joined effort with land owners. They make it VERY clear what is expected from riders (rules). If you look at the map I posted earlier (unfortunatly it's in french) there is a big yellow box to the bottom left that enumerates what you can and can't do. Not much room for improvisation after you took note of those rules.

Rules like: 
1- At ALL times, stay in the trail
2- Do not go in trails after it rained
Etc....

*But if you look at number 8 * , it says in French : N'effectuez pas de nouveaux tracés ou des travaux nonautorisés. Assurez-vous d'avoir la permission du propriétaire oudu gestionnaire avant toute activité d'entretien. 
*Traslation*: DO NOT MODIFY ANY TRAILS , DO NOT ATEMPT ANY WORK ON A TRAIL WITHOUT AUTHORISATION. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE AUTHORISATION FROM THE LAND OWNER OR ADMINISTRATOR BEFORE ANY MAINTENANCE ACTIVITY.

Keep in mind these site do have very very tech trails . The majority of the trails in most of these locations are Intermediate (Blue) and Expert (black ). Very few easy (Green) trails. And thats how enthusiasts and trail builders preserve trails , build to their image /skill level.

EDIT: 
*Had to add NUmber 9:*Respectez les propriétés privées. Circuler sur un terrainprivé est un privilège et non un droit. Soyez reconnaissant de lagénérosité des propriétaires. 
Respect private properties. Riding on private lands is a privelege and not a right. Be greatful for the owner's generosity.

*Number 10*: Impliquez-vous dans votre communauté 
Get involved in your community.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not at all the case IME. It's typically those with an XC-racer/Strava mentality that make things easier so they can be 'faster'. They usually worship carbon and wear 'kits' that cost as much as my old 26" steel hardtail.


Meh, a lot of us just don't _like_ to ride that stuff. It's not that we _can't_, or that we need to improve our skills, it's just not fun for us. Like rock crawling vs. desert racing in a 4x4. Some people like speed, others get off on tech. Being able to, or enjoying one or the other doesn't make you a "better" rider. We just like different things. I like speed, rhythm, and flow. There's no reason both can't be incorporated into some trails, or why some can't be all of one or the other. All that said, I've never constructed a "cheat", but I'm more than happy to ride them when somebody else does.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bingo!
> And that's my 3rd bingo in this thread, what do I win?





GeePhroh said:


> Backcountry Awesome Strap. And socks.


and a cookie.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Damn this is a heavy subject. I've mostly skimmed but is there anyone at all posting here that's actually *for* sanitizing existing trails?

I envy everyone here who gets to enjoy carefully crafted trails, ours are mostly organic and change frequently due to storms and erosion. B lines happen all the time but it doesn't bother me much.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

For a minute there I thought this thread was still rolling. What else is there to argue about? I think some of you would be better off taking up golf or crochet.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not at all the case IME. It's typically those with an XC-racer/Strava mentality that make things easier so they can be 'faster'. They usually worship carbon and wear 'kits' that cost as much as my old 26" steel hardtail.


Not in my neck of the woods, the strava-heads I've met are straight up dudes and wouldn't think of doing that. As a matter of fact I went on a ride recently with one of the KOM kings around here and he stopped to block a developing b-line.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I think some of you would be better off taking up golf or crochet.


Yeah, both are slow, tedious, and boring, just like riding techie trails.

:ciappa:


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

_CJ said:


> boring, just like riding techie trails.


Sounds like skill-set problem.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not at all the case IME. It's typically those with an XC-racer/Strava mentality that make things easier so they can be 'faster'. They usually worship carbon and wear 'kits' that cost as much as my old 26" steel hardtail.


Like the kind of dick that pulls out a 4 inch blow-down, because heaven forbid your mountain bike could go over a stick.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

One question...

If I want to go to the last page of this thread and skip all of the hard stuff can I just click the last page or do I have to read all the posts and risk a head injury? Do I have to go to the OP who created the thread?

Thanks!

John


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Clayncedar said:


> Wow. Quite the thread.
> 
> Being more of a trailbuilder than rider here in Pennsylvania where everything is rocks, roots, and logs I'll say this as one of the original creator of a fairly-popular sanctioned trail:
> 
> ...


Truly a great post; said better than I did.



indytrekracer said:


> While user education does play a role in reducing unwanted trail modifications, it is unrealistic to think that is THE SOLUTION.


I agree with you for the most part, especially when it comes to new trails. And I also agree that education alone is not the solution . . . but I think it is a very, very big part of the solution, especially when it comes to management, maintenance, and use of established trails.

So if we agree that education is only part of the solution, how to we promote the other part (which I view as active involvement)?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not in my neck of the woods, the strava-heads I've met are straight up dudes and wouldn't think of doing that. As a matter of fact I went on a ride recently with one of the KOM kings around here and he stopped to block a developing b-line.


There's definitely a lot of fast guys that don't would would never do anything like that. Most of them IME. But there's a segment for sure. Just like there's a segment of beginner/intermediate riders that really don't know it's not something you should really be doing; most are probably doing it with good intentions, thinking they're helping out with the trail. It's just something that's always going to go on. Designing with that in mind is definitely important if you're building for mass consumption.

I think this is one of those things that means more to you the longer you've been riding, and especially if you also build trails. Different trails are meant to have different 'personalities'. Thought goes into every turn and bump. A certain experience is meant to be imparted. Sometimes singletrack is meant to remain exactly that.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Personally, I MTB to explore in nature .. therefore slower and usually less technical than say Downhillers etc. The last thing I'd personally do is have something like Strava and /or any form of competition around


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think this is one of those things that means more to you the longer you've been riding


Funny, the older I get, the less I care. At this point, I'm really just happy to be outside riding my bike, especially when I look at the lives most people my age are living.

In the long view, trails evolve. There's no point in fighting it. In my area at least, the trails are largely undamaged and unchanged from twenty years ago, but we have twice as many as we used to.

What HAS changed is the bikes people are riding, and their expectation of having trails built to suit their ever increasing abilities. And in most cases, the guys doing the complaining about trails not being good enough aren't involved any sort of trail advocacy group.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> There's definitely a lot of fast guys that don't would would never do anything like that. Most of them IME.


I suppose that's my point, most people (IME) labeled as "stravatards", "strava-holes" and various other derogatory tags are actually considerate and polite riders. Kind of like most mountain bikers are considerate and nice yet some hiking enthusiasts label all mtb'ers as rogue thugs because of a few bad apples.

Yeah I'm one of "them" and honestly I'm not personally bothered by being labeled as a strava-weenie here on mtbr (actually good entertainment) just pointing out that it's somewhat of a bigoted view. I admit my experience is limited though and maybe in other areas the strava freaks are out of control.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I suppose that's my point, most people (IME) labeled as "stravatards", "strava-holes" and various other derogatory tags are actually considerate and polite riders.


I would only label someone as a Strava-hole if they were the kind of rider to yell "strava" at a group of hikers or slower bikers to force them outta the way in an effort to get a better strava time.... Something I have thankfully never seen happen in my riding area.



J.B. Weld said:


> I've mostly skimmed but is there anyone at all posting here that's actually *for* sanitizing existing trails?


Not that I have seen. The argument was mostly about whether or not B-lines are cool or not. The general consensus is that changing the main line of a trail to make it easier or harder is a no-no.

They grey area and main point of contention is the feasibility of someone making an alternate line on a trail, either to make it easier for some rider to go around an obstacle, or for more skilled riders to create an obstacle to go over. Much of it comes down to the Land Managers, or lack there of and what happens in that vacuum.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bingo!
> And that's my 3rd bingo in this thread, what do I win?


In bowling that would be a turkey...and I think the guy with the turkey buys drunks for everyone else....


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Damn this is a heavy subject. I've mostly skimmed but is there anyone at all posting here that's actually *for* sanitizing existing trails?
> 
> I envy everyone here who gets to enjoy carefully crafted trails, ours are mostly organic and change frequently due to storms and erosion. B lines happen all the time but it doesn't bother me much.


Same here. I prefer to ride these kind of trails anyways. It is what I grew up doing: fins a hole in the woodline...go into it


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've mostly skimmed but is there anyone at all posting here that's actually *for* sanitizing existing trails?


Well, if nobody else will step up to the plate, then I will.

I'm all about running the mini-ex along the local trails to smooth them out so that I can ride them after having more than a few too many beers. I'll knock any obtrusive trees out of the way too.

I figure that there's no better way to enjoy biking through the woods than being three-sheets to the wind on a baby-butt smooth trail.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

sXeXBMXer said:


> In bowling that would be a turkey...and I think the guy with the turkey buys drunks for everyone else....


I can't be bought for anyone.


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## Pilzak (Dec 16, 2016)

Exactly!! If it's there and you can ride it, do it. If you can't, walk around until you get better at riding.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know that anyone is arguing for sanitization, at least blatantly, but there is a lot of support for the notion that all advanced features should be relegated to the b lines. I'd like to counter that point. 

B line only features incentivize lack of progression in riders and lower the overall competency of the whole riding population. 

Example: A moderately difficult log pile(I hate them, but it's easy) is placed on a generic, intermediate trail. Let's say it's on the b line, with the easy line being the main path. A group of riders comes along, and none of them hit it. Why? Because the line is out of the way, and the feature also slows them down. If they hit that feature, they've gotta bust their hump to catch their crew. Less solo riders will hit it too, as it's not common for riders to go out of the way for additional challenge. Bottom line is that features placed on a B line will be less ridden, which means you're creating less skilled riders and fueling future sanitation. 

Alternatively, consider the same feature placed on the direct line, with a slightly longer bypass around it. The same group happens upon it, only this time, maybe the feature is the faster & funnest option. Some take it; some don't, but everyone comes back together around the same pace. Those who don't take it, but see their crew try it, may choose to try it next time. As a builder, with this simple choice, YOU are directly affecting the level and expectations of your trail users. I'd argue that it affects long term fulfillment of your riders, but that is my opinion. 

The same feature, with no bypass, would put the most tyres on it, and the most incentive for improvement, but also runs the risk of unauthorized modification. 

My whole point is that b lines have negative consequences for individual riders, the community as a whole, and the future of our sport. Creating a culture of stagnant riders is not helping anyone.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I won't claim I'm special, better, or cooler than anyone else; but personally I live for those purpose-built advanced B-lines and will choose them 8 days a week over the A-line. (Unless of course, it's above my skill for that day). 
I won't contribute to the wearing-in if it looks like it's a rogue, unauthorized thing, but if it's meant to be there, I'm on it. It's hit or miss with the group I hang with, but there are a few that are 'can't miss'. We generally consider those as the real route, with the other one being a 'bail-out'. 
Part of the challenge is seeing if I can hit the line and still not get dropped from the group.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AllMountin' said:


> B line only features incentivize lack of progression in riders and lower the overall competency of the whole riding population.
> 
> My whole point is that b lines have negative consequences for individual riders, the community as a whole, and the future of our sport. Creating a culture of stagnant riders is not helping anyone.


You seem to be of the opinion that riding more technically demanding trails is the pinnacle of the sport. Or that choosing to ride less demanding trails devalues the experience, the rider, or the sport itself. Maybe technically challenging trails are your thing, and that's fine, but some of us just don't enjoy that stuff, or maybe just don't want to ride it on that particular day. We can ride it just fine if we choose. No "progression" in our skills is required. It's just not our thing. Some people like skiing moguls, some like skiing super-G. The "progression" that we're seeing in the sport now is that it's diverging into multiple disciplines, or maybe the lines between disciplines (XC, downhill, Trials) are getting blurred, and clearly that needs to be addressed, but acting as if one style of riding is better than another isn't doing anything to advance the sport as a whole.

That said, I would have no issue with the "B-line" being a bypass to an obstacle.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

After reading CJs post above I realized my post can be interpreted as a bit of 'progress or die' mentality. 
I'm not that into progression these days, but if I have a choice between 'the trail' or a diversion to a rock slab, or a ledge, those sound more fun, and that's what I care about: fun.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I think we should get these definitions straightened out first. A b-line typically refers to the straightest distance between 2 points so around here I guess that would be known as the strava-line. In mountain bike speak though I think of a b-line as an easier alternative to the main route, though not necessarily shorter. AKA cheater lines. Some here say b-lines are the harder alternative, which can cause confusion.

There needs refinement for mtb talk, maybe c-lines? Or w-lines? p-lines?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

You're thinking "beeline" as in the straight line a bee flies to the hive after gathering nectar. 
B-line is as I understand it, a skiing term to designate 'off the main route' like option A as primary, option B is... the other one. 
It can be either harder or easier, but to avoid confusion, everyone I know calls the main trail the A-line. a B-line is harder, and a bypass is easier than the A-line.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

B stands for bastard line and it is whatever cut wasn't there first. It is not always the easy route that is the B line. I see plenty of people creating B lines to climb up and over a boulder or hit a little drop.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Steezus said:


> B stands for bastard line and it is whatever cut wasn't there first. It is not always the easy route that is the B line. I see plenty of people creating B lines to climb up and over a boulder or hit a little drop.


Our trails get very little traffic so I don't see that sort of thing as an issue, most around here would consider that the [email protected]


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

J.B. Weld said:


> Our trails get very little traffic so I don't see that sort of thing as an issue, most around here would consider that the [email protected]


Or the P line [Pansie Line] depending on why it was built.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Seriously though, this sport with each passing generation is getting more and more pussified with the trails with more capable bikes.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

There's 1,000% more badass trails out there now compared to 20 years ago.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Steezus said:


> There's 1,000% more badass trails out there now compared to 20 years ago.


Sure if you consider a flow trail bad ass.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Or the P line [Pansie Line] depending on why it was built.


see post #329.

¿1000%?


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I think we should get these definitions straightened out first. A b-line typically refers to the straightest distance between 2 points so around here I guess that would be known as the strava-line. In mountain bike speak though I think of a b-line as an easier alternative to the main route, though not necessarily shorter. AKA cheater lines. Some here say b-lines are the harder alternative, which can cause confusion.
> 
> There needs refinement for mtb talk, maybe c-lines? Or w-lines? p-lines?


That's absolutely traditionally correct for most trails. However, I would suggest there is an A-B line labeling exception for new-school flow trails with imbedded tech features now being installed some places like where I build. The main flow trail itself logically is the A-line due to overwhelming traffic numbers and the far-less used more tech features deliberately off to the side here and there thus represent B-line options.

Designed that way you generally preempt the development of what most people identify as traditional B-line cheater routes.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

_CJ said:


> You seem to be of the opinion that riding more technically demanding trails is the pinnacle of the sport. Or that choosing to ride less demanding trails devalues the experience, the rider, or the sport itself.


I wouldn't go that far. Being able to ride a whole trail is better than only being able to ride parts of it, unless you prefer hiking to biking. Self improvement in riding, as with every facet of life, is inherently good and desirable. We should all seek to be a better version of ourselves.

Progression is just a label applied to a very broad concept. Simply put, I'm referring to actively trying to be a better rider today than you were yesterday. Over time, this improvement opens up new trails and expands your riding experience. Experiencing more flow, or cleaning a section of trail for the first time... these are universally positive experiences that all can enjoy, regardless of level.

I am part of a social ride group of ~150 people, ranging from 15 to 70, and from casual to pro level athletes. Most have expressed interest in skills clinics, or desire for skills improvement. Surprisingly, the women(male ego?) seem most keen on organizing an event to facilitate that. My experience suggests that the vast majority of riders do, in fact, seek skills improvement, so let's build trails in a way that helps encourage that, not discourage it.

To stop sanitation, we need to change the culture.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Seriously though, this sport with each passing generation is getting more and more pussified with the trails with more capable bikes.


Same with life, more and more people need safe places and are to afraid to take chances or get offended easy.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

B-line = alternate line.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

allmountin' said:


> to stop sanitation, we need to change the culture.


yes.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Seriously though, this sport with each passing generation is getting more and more pussified with the trails with more capable bikes.


Not here. The newer trails I see are more and more advanced. I guess the locals got bored with the flowing ones.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AllMountin' said:


> Self improvement in riding, as with every facet of life, is inherently good and desirable. We should all seek to be a better version of ourselves.....I'm referring to actively trying to be a better rider today than you were yesterday. this improvement opens up new trails and expands your riding experience.


There you go again....riding more technically challenging trails is "better". It's funny that you can't even recognize it in what you're saying.

Sounds like you ride with people new to the sport who haven't yet reached their own personal limits of ability.

It's funny you mention ego....I think this whole "stop the sanitation" thing is really just people trying to convince everyone how bad-ass they are. "Oh, these trails are too easy"...."I'm way too hardcore for that wussy trail".

Shut up and ride your bike.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

_CJ said:


> There you go again....riding more technically challenging trails is "better". It's funny that you can't even recognize it in what you're saying.
> 
> Sounds like you ride with people new to the sport who haven't yet reached their own personal limits of ability, and maybe never will.
> 
> ...


So what you don't want to get better. The only people who have reached their limits of ability are the ones that have given up trying.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

CJ likes to put words in people's mouths. Sounds super bitter. 

And yes CJ, being better at riding bikes is better. That's why it's called... better. If you ride the same trail, the same way, for a decade, you'll get bored and probably move on.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Seriously though, this sport with each passing generation is getting more and more pussified with the trails with more capable bikes.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Sure if you consider a flow trail bad ass.


No, I just reran the numbers and the math checks out. Mountain biking is 1,000% better for people that like tech, 1,000% better for anyone that like flow, and 2,000% better for those of us that like a variety.

Seriously, if anyone thinks trails suck more now than they did 10-20 years ago, you need to ride more than the one local trail next to your house.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Steezus said:


> No, I just reran the numbers and the math checks out. Mountain biking is 1,000% better for people that like tech, 1,000% better for anyone that like flow, and 2,000% better for those of us that like a variety.
> 
> Seriously, if anyone thinks trails suck more now than they did 10-20 years ago, you need to ride more than the one local trail next to your house.


No I don't think the trails suck more than many years ago. I think these yahoos that think they have a right to alter existing trails to their liking is hurting our sport in the eyes of other trail users.

What do you think a hiker thinks as they hike along and see an alternate route that was obviously created by a couple of outlaw mtbrs that don't give a **** about the environment around them?

Leave the trails as they are created. And those building the trails need to have a bit more insight into the natural flow of the land. Don't remove or fill in rocky sections because it won't fit in with "everyone's" enjoyment.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Steezus said:


> No, I just reran the numbers and the math checks out. Mountain biking is 1,000% better for people that like tech, 1,000% better for anyone that like flow, and 2,000% better for those of us that like a variety.
> 
> Seriously, if anyone thinks trails suck more now than they did 10-20 years ago, you need to ride more than the one local trail next to your house.


Something that typically gets lost in the flow/tradition trail discussion is that those trails from 10-20 years ago are still there and ready to be ridden. Just because new flow trails get built, doesn't mean that the old-school trails just disappear.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> There you go again....riding more technically challenging trails is "better". It's funny that you can't even recognize it in what you're saying.
> 
> Sounds like you ride with people new to the sport who haven't yet reached their own personal limits of ability.
> 
> ...


I know I'm no bad-ass, nor do I try to convince anyone that I am. I do ride with some folks that qualify though; I don't think I should take it upon myself to simplify trails that they enjoy riding in order to meet my lower performance level. Nor do I think someone should go out and pile rocks and logs in the middle of fast flowy trails.

If you personally prefer fast flowy trails, that's great. Find (or build) trails that make you happy and ride them. But I don't see that you should be going out changing trails tor sections to make them less technically challenging, which is precisely what 'sanitization' consists of. If a trail has more tech than you prefer, either ride it and deal with it, or don't ride it at all. But you sure as hell shouldn't take it upon yourself to remove or simplify challenges that others enjoy. Nor should you develop shortcuts or easy lines on an existing technical trail/section.

B-lines that are designed in are NOT sanitization IMO and don't really belong as part of this conversation.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> No I don't think the trails suck more than many years ago. I think these yahoos that think they have a right to alter existing trails to their liking is hurting our sport in the eyes of other trail users.
> 
> What do you think a hiker thinks as they hike along and see an alternate route that was obviously created by a couple of outlaw mtbrs that don't give a **** about the environment around them?
> 
> Leave the trails as they are created. And those building the trails need to have a bit more insight into the natural flow of the land. Don't remove or fill in rocky sections because it won't fit in with "everyone's" enjoyment.


Hikers are way worse than mtn bikers when it comes to creating extra trails that shouldn't be there. Any trail with switchbacks is littered with shortcuts. But despite that, I am not nor is anyone here actually saying we should just be modifying trails however we see fit. I am addressing the whiney attitude that trails suck nowadays or this young generation of bikers that are miles better than anyone that came before them are somehow ruining all the trails. All I am saying is that if you put an effort into riding more than just your local trail, anyone should be able to clearly see that the situation is so much better across the board now than it used to be. Before there were no flow trails, now there's tons, but there's also still tons of tech trails and more of both are being built as we speak.

It good to be proactive and put your voice out there to maintain what we have, but if tech trails are eroding to the point that it is unsustainable, well tough ****. And with this explosion of biking popularity, some trails are bound to be dumbed down. I am saying the trade is worth it because there's new trails to move onto and the most important thing to remember is that.... it sure as **** will not ever stop. Your trails will be altered over time.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Steezus said:


> Hikers are way worse than mtn bikers when it comes to creating extra trails that shouldn't be there. Any trail with switchbacks is littered with shortcuts. But despite that, I am not nor is anyone here actually saying we should just be modifying trails however we see fit. I am addressing the whiney attitude that trails suck nowadays or this young generation of bikers that are miles better than anyone that came before them are somehow ruining all the trails. All I am saying is that if you put an effort into riding more than just your local trail, anyone should be able to clearly see that the situation is so much better across the board now than it used to be. Before there were no flow trails, now there's tons, but there's also still tons of tech trails and more of both are being built as we speak.
> 
> It good to be proactive and put your voice out there to maintain what we have, but if tech trails are eroding to the point that it is unsustainable, well tough ****. And with this explosion of biking popularity, some trails are bound to be dumbed down. I am saying the trade is worth it because there's new trails to move onto and the most important thing to remember is that.... it sure as **** will not ever stop. Your trails will be altered over time.


[/thread]

...


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Steezus said:


> Hikers are way worse than mtn bikers when it comes to creating extra trails that shouldn't be there. Any trail with switchbacks is littered with shortcuts. But despite that, I am not nor is anyone here actually saying we should just be modifying trails however we see fit. I am addressing the whiney attitude that trails suck nowadays or this young generation of bikers that are miles better than anyone that came before them are somehow ruining all the trails. All I am saying is that if you put an effort into riding more than just your local trail, anyone should be able to clearly see that the situation is so much better across the board now than it used to be. Before there were no flow trails, now there's tons, but there's also still tons of tech trails and more of both are being built as we speak.
> 
> It good to be proactive and put your voice out there to maintain what we have, but if tech trails are eroding to the point that it is unsustainable, well tough ****. And with this explosion of biking popularity, some trails are bound to be dumbed down. I am saying the trade is worth it because there's new trails to move onto and the most important thing to remember is that.... it sure as **** will not ever stop. Your trails will be altered over time.


That's all great if the trail builders decide to dumb down for erosion control. I'm saying nobody but the trail builders have a right to alter in any shape or form which includes these so called chicken **** B routes. Learn to ride the trail before you, if you can't ride it, get off and hike a bike it. If a B route us built by the trail builders, then fine it's there to be used by all. This all goes for hikers as well. They don't have the right to make B routes although as you pointed out they do. Who said trails suck nowadays? That wasn't me, my beef is with people thinking they have the right to alter trails to suit their riding inability or ability.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Klurejr said:


> Not that I have seen. The argument was mostly about whether or not B-lines are cool or not. The general consensus is that changing the main line of a trail to make it easier or harder is a no-no.
> 
> They grey area and main point of contention is the feasibility of someone making an alternate line on a trail, either to make it easier for some rider to go around an obstacle, or for more skilled riders to create an obstacle to go over. Much of it comes down to the Land Managers, or lack there of and what happens in that vacuum.


I thought this was a great synopsis of this whole discussion. I don't think anyone is for non-authorized trail modification, yet the argument rages on. This thread has about 10,000 views. There are about 60 million people who ride bikes in the US. The numbers I saw show around 12 million bikes sold to adults last year with 25% of those being mountain bikes.

I understand how passionate people are, but get a grip. You are preaching unwritten rules, that I agree with, on a mountain bike forum and there are millions who will never know or care. As upset as people on both sides get, there is a good chance nothing will change because you will never reach a high enough percentage to bring about change.

Here is one thought... Since there is so much hostility in this thread, no one has a clue if more people are pushed to stop sanitizing or to do more of it.

John


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Removed some cheater rocks while out riding today.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I put some logs on the inside of a corner to stop corner cutting.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Who said trails suck nowadays? That wasn't me, my beef is with people thinking they have the right to alter trails to suit their riding inability or ability.


You seem to blame the new generation for pussifying trails. I said that there's a lot more gnar trails out there now than there were 10-20 years ago and you disagreed, so obviously it is your belief that trails are getting worse.

This new generation of riders have far surpassed older generations in skill. Their learning curve is accelerated with the Internet to teach them and the crazy nice gear we have available. I can only imagine what trails will look like once they get older and take the mantle for trail planning and building. Whenever a trail sees dumbing down, it is always an older person that is in charge of making those decisions.

And again, I haven't read every post in here, but I have yet to read anyone advocating that we should be allowed to just build extra lines anywhere. You seriously don't need to keep talking about that over and over anymore.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Curveball said:


> Something that typically gets lost in the flow/tradition trail discussion is that those trails from 10-20 years ago are still there and ready to be ridden. Just because new flow trails get built, doesn't mean that the old-school trails just disappear.


Actually, in some cases they do disappear, as in get closed or rerouted in favor of a new flow trail.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Mountain biking used to be so hardcore before all these wussy kids came along and dumbed down our trials....






rft:


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

terrasmak said:


> Removed some cheater rocks while out riding today.





rlee said:


> I put some logs on the inside of a corner to stop corner cutting.


You had permission or you are the builders.... Correct?


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

Oh I miss the suspensionless days were it felt like your wrists were broken halfway through the ride and they itched liked you had been bitten by 1,000 mosquitoes.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I built a Burmese tiger pit on a cheater line today. Covered the pit with some all weather carpet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Giodog2000 (Jun 6, 2016)

cjsb said:


> I built a Burmese tiger pit on a cheater line today. Covered the pit with some all weather carpet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I heard someone got hurt and the land owner called my office letting me know he just had about enough of the fighting. Says he is going to refuse access from now on.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Steezus said:


> You seem to blame the new generation for pussifying trails. I said that there's a lot more gnar trails out there now than there were 10-20 years ago and you disagreed, so obviously it is your belief that trails are getting worse.
> 
> This new generation of riders have far surpassed older generations in skill. Their learning curve is accelerated with the Internet to teach them and the crazy nice gear we have available. I can only imagine what trails will look like once they get older and take the mantle for trail planning and building. Whenever a trail sees dumbing down, it is always an older person that is in charge of making those decisions.
> 
> And again, I haven't read every post in here, but I have yet to read anyone advocating that we should be allowed to just build extra lines anywhere. You seriously don't need to keep talking about that over and over anymore.


"This generation skill level surpasses past generations"

Look at the bikes of today compared to the ones of yesterday. Pretty subjective topic there. Some would say riding gnarlier trails on less capable equipment would take more skill. But like I said it's a pretty subjective topic.

"I blame the newer generation for dumbing down the trails".
"it's always older people dumbing down the trails"

I think the dumbing down effect is done by generations across the board.

All I'm asking is for all to stop altering trails. None of us [other than an approved trail change] have the right to do this. Yet it gets more and more widespread. The mentality [so it would seem] is a free for all out there. If one can't clear a section or maybe wants a more challenging section, or is Strava driven they think they have the right to alter as they see fit.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

This has been a really good discussion TBH. So here's something else for everyone to think about regarding your local trail and any rogue unapproved trailwork that may be taking place there.

My experience as an authorized trailbuilder on three different trails is that well-maintained trails with extremely active official trail crews who are highly-visible don't tend to get screwed with. People KNOW there are builders around who will remove unapproved B-lines and Strava shortcuts just as fast as a storm- downed tree. Guys show up to ride what's there, rip it as satisfied customers, and get out. 

My question is this regarding at least some trails out there that you're observing this sanitation behavior- are guys messing with them because maintenance appears sporadic and/or minimal giving a sense of an orphan trail they can adopt? Were they unsustainably-built social trails that eroded gradually over the years exposing far more rocks and roots than what the original tread was intended to display? Are there relatively few trails in the area so people with varying skillsets are forced to share one relatively tech old-school trail without official B-line routes sustainably built by landmanager-recognized trailbuilders with approval?

If the answer is "yes" or else "IDK" to any of these questions then it might suggest that the local mountain biking community including shops and clubs, the regular official trailbuilders there, and the governmental landmanagers all need to sit down as stakeholders and reach real consensus on identifying/fixing issues leading to the unwanted behavior.

My area has a pretty decent collection of well-maintained trails of varying skill levels and we pretty much do this on an ad hoc basis with decent results. Don't get me wrong - there's still squabbling over leafblowing or pulling a single rock now and then but it's pretty rare.

NOTHING I said here should be interpreted as justifying or excusing unauthorized, illegal rogue trail maintenance or sanitation. It is wrong and nothing bothers me more except people rutting wet trails. However, figuring out how to get more people involved campaigning for, planning, and building improved and expanded trail systems for every skill level receiving regular official maintenance would probably help reduce the sanitizing problem to some degree.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Here's an example from a ride I did this morning of "what's happening" and why some are pissed. 
There's a popular local trail system within a regional park- entry fee, rangers patrol, etc. this is not a web of random trails. 
It's a very popular place for endurance style races, 6,12 and 24hr MTB races, a few ultra marathon trail races, etc. and is well maintained by the $6 entry fee.
Within the park are 3 competitive loops: a blue/geen 4mil short loop, a mostly blue 8mi long loop, and a 3 mi blue/black "tech" loop. On this tech loop there are a number of 'features' that are special. One of these is known as "The Ledge". its a small vertical drop placed about 1/3 of the way down a steep but smooth roller. Here's a stock pic. not me, I stole this from a google search. 







AT THE TOP, ITS CLEARLY SIGNED AS 'THE LEDGE', AND HAS AN OPTIONAL BYPASS, also clearly marked with signs. it was designed that way.

My first pass, I popped it, only to find some pu$$ified, head-up-own-a$$ motherf%^ker had stacked rocks to ramp the drop. But he did such a crap job I ended up knocking several loose, which avalanched down the hill with me. I was so pissed I threw my bike down and marched back up to move every damned rock off the hill. That bulls$%t is dangerous.

So, tell me... why would someone do that? I suspect Ego and Strava. The can't handle the drop (doable on a freaking BMX bike) but don't like their friends seeing the Strava segment riding the bypass.

rant over.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

ARandomBiker said:


> So, tell me... why would someone do that? I suspect Ego and Strava.


I would be more inclined to blame those who have not earned the skills, yet want the bragging rights to say they have accomplished the given section.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Sure if you consider a flow trail bad ass.


I don't know man. By me everything used to be cross country single track. You would die climbing and try to make it down in one piece on beat up hiking trails. 20 years ago I would do this in an 80mm hardtail. Now by me there are flow trails, pump tracks, rock gardens, drops, you name it and you can pretty much ride it. No it's not the north shore or even close to it (nor do I pretend that I want to do a 40 foot road gap) but you are getting all sorts of trails built and getting a lot more people into MTB which means further trail advocacy and building.

Some people still like the old school unsanitized trails. I don't think there is anything wrong with a purpose built trail that you can rip at 25+ mph and catch air off everything. I dunno, I think it's all fun on two wheels.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> Here's an example from a ride I did this morning of "what's happening" and why some are pissed.
> There's a popular local trail system within a regional park- entry fee, rangers patrol, etc. this is not a web of random trails.
> It's a very popular place for endurance style races, 6,12 and 24hr MTB races, a few ultra marathon trail races, etc. and is well maintained by the $6 entry fee.
> Within the park are 3 competitive loops: a blue/geen 4mil short loop, a mostly blue 8mi long loop, and a 3 mi blue/black "tech" loop. On this tech loop there are a number of 'features' that are special. One of these is known as "The Ledge". its a small vertical drop placed about 1/3 of the way down a steep but smooth roller. Here's a stock pic. not me, I stole this from a google search.
> ...


Looks like a cool place. No mud, wet rocks, roots, or slush 

Is that drop rollable if someone didn't feel like popping it or taking the B-line? Hard to tell from the pic.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> Here's an example from a ride I did this morning of "what's happening" and why some are pissed.
> There's a popular local trail system within a regional park- entry fee, rangers patrol, etc. this is not a web of random trails.
> It's a very popular place for endurance style races, 6,12 and 24hr MTB races, a few ultra marathon trail races, etc. and is well maintained by the $6 entry fee.
> Within the park are 3 competitive loops: a blue/geen 4mil short loop, a mostly blue 8mi long loop, and a 3 mi blue/black "tech" loop. On this tech loop there are a number of 'features' that are special. One of these is known as "The Ledge". its a small vertical drop placed about 1/3 of the way down a steep but smooth roller. Here's a stock pic. not me, I stole this from a google search.
> ...


I would totally be pissed off at that too. Let trail builders build the trails. There is a similar place here like that. Green, blue and black. Really well thought out, all with pass arounds. When I see a drop that was well built, I have confidence to commit because the landing was most likely designed to "land it". I would be so furious in your situation. That's just outright dangerous. Either go build your own trail somewhere (if u know what you are doing) or just go around.

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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Giodog2000 said:


> I heard someone got hurt and the land owner called my office letting me know he just had about enough of the fighting. Says he is going to refuse access from now on.


I am the local trail manager--it was the most efficient way of dealing with these dumbasses.

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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

I ride a area that has several trails that are blue/green but because of a single tech section every mile or so they are considered black. All of the locals know this and everyone rides them. When you only have a small tech section on a easy trail it is just asking for sanitization, isn't it? It is the same as my biggest peeve, "corner cutting". It can be greatly discouraged when the trail is built. If people can see a alternate line them someone will take it.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

rlee said:


> I ride a area that has several trails that are blue/green but because of a single tech section every mile or so they are considered black. All of the locals know this and everyone rides them. When you only have a small tech section on a easy trail it is just asking for sanitization, isn't it? It is the same as my biggest peeve, "corner cutting". It can be greatly discouraged when the trail is built. If people can see a alternate line them someone will take it.


Can you clarify the last part? Are you saying that technical sections should not have ride arounds or that they should so people don't create their own and mess up the trail?

I'm personally all for built in ride arounds. It allows for progression. I should not be able to not ride the black trails by me because I don't want to do that last 10 foot sketchy drop. I should just ride around it and by no means should I alter the feature just because I can't do it.

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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

A blue trail with one small section of black will get ridden by everyone, so a trail builder should put in a alternate route. People don't like to walk and a alternate line will develop.
If a builder really wants a advanced trail then the majority of the trail should reflect this.
Progression is part of our sport and a good example would be a table top. Great to learn on and everyone can ride it. A advanced trail would have a gap. I don't think you should build a jump trail with 10 tabletops and one gap.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Actually, as long as it's the last jump that is the double, that's the perfecypt way to progress as a rider. An easy/intermediate trail with one or two technical features should be the best way for an intermediate rider to improve their skills. I get what you're saying about somebody wanting an easy alternative route, but that isn't a justifucation to make one if the terrain does not support one.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

rlee said:


> A blue trail with one small section of black will get ridden by everyone, so a trail builder should put in a alternate route. People don't like to walk and a alternate line will develop.
> If a builder really wants a advanced trail then the majority of the trail should reflect this.
> Progression is part of our sport and a good example would be a table top. Great to learn on and everyone can ride it. A advanced trail would have a gap. I don't think you should build a jump trail with 10 tabletops and one gap.


The trail I'm referring to is like that. The black section is difficult but has ride arounds for all wood built features. However you only get good riders on that section of trail. What they did was start the section with a drop and a rock garden. This pretty much filters a lot of riders. Once you get into the trail, the trail itself is difficult and other than wooden drop features (which let you progress), you need to ride the trail.

The trail is three loops so you can do a 3 mile green, then a 4 mile blue flowy/bermy loop and finally a 3 mile black. All trails have features that let you progress to the next level of difficulty but easy to stay away from harder loops.

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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

If you have not developed the skill to ride the crux, then walk it. No requirement for the builder to build an easy 'ride around'. Why the necessity to build all trails to the lowest skill?


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Clayncedar said:


> Looks like a cool place. No mud, wet rocks, roots, or slush
> 
> Is that drop rollable if someone didn't feel like popping it or taking the B-line? Hard to tell from the pic.


Man, this is Phoenix. We have rocks, sand, more rocks and cactus. It's fantastic for about 9 months of the year, and 10-12 weeks where it's literally an oven, 100* by 8am.

Re: the drop. I suppose it rollable, but honestly, why? If you can't send it, that's why there is a purpose-built and well marked bypass around the drop. For anyone wanting to hit the drop, all you gotta do is keep your weight back over the seat and not ham-fist the brakes and you'll send it no sweat. I mean, I do it regularly on a RIGID singlespeed. 
Hell, even the bypass is fun, it's got a neat tight-radius BMX berm to rail.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> If you have not developed the skill to ride the crux, then walk it. No requirement for the builder to build an easy 'ride around'. Why the necessity to build all trails to the lowest skill?


Agree with you with one exception, if the trail is easily accessible by all then the builder needs to anticipate and provide an easy ride around. This also protects the feature from being sanitized.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

cjsb said:


> Agree with you with one exception, if the trail is easily accessible by all then the builder needs to anticipate and provide an easy ride around. This also protects the feature from being sanitized.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but if they didn't provide an easy ride around its not up to the trail user [you,us] to alter it to suit our inability. That's why humans were given the ability to walk. Get off your bike and walk it, you may even experience a little more nature as you do so.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

A number of people have brought up the spectre of "10 foot drops" stuck smack-dab in the middle of intermediate trails with no b-lines. I have never seen anything remotely like this in almost 30 years of riding. A a matter of fact, besides lift serviced terrain, I don't know if I can think of more than 3 or 4 large drops on public trails in all of New England, and they all have b-lines and are part of expert trails to begin with.

I gotta call BS on that whole situation. 

FWIW - this is about a 10' drop; the pic of the ledge that was sanitized in an earlier post looks to be a rollable 2-footer (just to make sure we're all basing our numbers in reality here).


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> A number of people have brought up the spectre of "10 foot drops" stuck smack-dab in the middle of intermediate trails with no b-lines. I have never seen anything remotely like this in almost 30 years of riding. A a matter of fact, besides lift serviced terrain, I don't know if I can think of more than 3 or 4 large drops on public trails in all of New England, and they all have b-lines and are part of expert trails to begin with.
> 
> I gotta call BS on that whole situation.


The trail by me with a 10 foot drop is at the very end of the black loop and since anything over 4 feet is wood built; they all have ride arounds. The black trail starts with a drop as a filter for folks. I too have never seen anything like that on an intermediate trail.

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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Seriously though, this sport with each passing generation is getting more and more pussified with the trails with more capable bikes.





deke505 said:


> Same with life, more and more people need safe places and are to afraid to take chances or get offended easy.


Hey now. *I* am special! Things need to be the way *I* want them to be. *I *want to be a pro without any effort. Everyone wins right? Don't *I* get a trophy too? *I* have the right to do the activity with no effort. *I* want it now!

And I am sueing anyone who says other wise

:madman::madman: :skep:


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

MrDavey2shoes said:


> pee'd on an ant hill today. couldnt clear it. sanitized it good.


those ants had no right to build a hill there and ruin everyones Strava time...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


>


Jesus, talk about sanitizing the natural terrain.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a stretch to even call that mountain biking. Stunt riding maybe, but not mountain biking.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

_CJ said:


> Jesus, talk about sanitizing the natural terrain.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, it's a stretch to even call that mountain biking. Stunt riding maybe, but not mountain biking.


sort of in the same camp...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Jesus, talk about sanitizing the natural terrain.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, it's a stretch to even call that mountain biking. Stunt riding maybe, but not mountain biking.


Meh...pretty typical at the parks. 
Even young kids hit stuff like that all day long now.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Meh...pretty typical at the parks.
> Even young kids hit stuff like that all day long now.


That's awesome.

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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

_CJ said:


> Jesus, talk about sanitizing the natural terrain.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, it's a stretch to even call that mountain biking. Stunt riding maybe, but not mountain biking.


I dunno. Looks like they used the wood from the trees they cut down. Pretty natural terrain in my book... lol.

John


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

sXeXBMXer said:


> sort of in the same camp...


...but I realize that most of the places with those kind of jumps are specifically built for that kind of riding....so it was a planned "sanitization" of an naturally existing area.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It's an old ski area repurposed for MTB. 
And yeah, they build the stunts, as well as the lodge and other buildings, from timber harvested on-site. Fun place.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's an old ski area repurposed for MTB.
> And yeah, they build the stunts, as well as the lodge and other buildings, from timber harvested on-site. Fun place.


If someone took the time to build features, design rock gardens and work with the grounds to enhance (such as berms) and even built ride arounds; when someone rides out of their element and they modify the trail to make it easier rather than take the ride around or get off the bike and walk, that's sanitizing.

I think all this trail building is awesome. Something for everyone. You want to go down rocky single track in a hard tail - be my guest. I want to go on a flow trail and hit berms at 25 plus mph on my awesome enduro bike - don't judge me.

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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo;12961902
[IMG said:


> http://www.exposedrockphotography.com/images/sport/Climo%20drop1.jpg[/IMG]


Who is that Den? Don't recognize the kit.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mattyice said:


> Who is that Den? Don't recognize the kit.


In the pic? No idea. Just wanted to be sure that we're all talking about the same thing when people are talking about coming across 10' drops on public XC trails.

Me and the boy met the kids in the video DJing not long ago. Rippers!


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> In the pic? No idea. Just wanted to be sure that we're all talking about the same thing when people are talking about coming across 10' drops on public XC trails.
> 
> Me and the boy met the kids in the video DJing not long ago. Rippers!


Yeah I've never seen a 10 footer on an XC trail. Well a couple but I'm not flat dropping em. Or doing a 10 footer in general.

What's the stream gap? like 5 feet? That still scares the **** out of me.

Seth and Mike have some sick shots going off that bridge drop too, that's why I ask. Looks like a lanky bastard like Seth but that's Def not him.

Anywhoo leave the trail the way you found it. It's annoying enough that stravatards go around awesome rocks, not necessarily physically altering the trail but it literally affects the sight line and flow of the trail.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

ARandomBiker said:


> Man, this is Phoenix. We have rocks, sand, more rocks and cactus. It's fantastic for about 9 months of the year, and 10-12 weeks where it's literally an oven, 100* by 8am.
> 
> Re: the drop. I suppose it rollable, but honestly, why? If you can't send it, that's why there is a purpose-built and well marked bypass around the drop. For anyone wanting to hit the drop, all you gotta do is keep your weight back over the seat and not ham-fist the brakes and you'll send it no sweat. I mean, I do it regularly on a RIGID singlespeed.
> Hell, even the bypass is fun, it's got a neat tight-radius BMX berm to rail.


Weird. I was trying to figure out why people were bothering spending time in the Arizona sun ramping that ledge with rocks to begin with when they could just roll it if they didn't want to detour to the B-line or else send it.

That bypass berm sounds like fun though.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Hey now. *I* am special! Things need to be the way *I* want them to be. *I *want to be a pro without any effort. Everyone wins right? Don't *I* get a trophy too? *I* have the right to do the activity with no effort. *I* want it now!
> 
> And I am sueing anyone who says other wise
> 
> :madman::madman: :skep:


What am *I* missing here?


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

cjsb said:


> Agree with you with one exception, if the trail is easily accessible by all then the builder needs to anticipate and provide an easy ride around. This also protects the feature from being sanitized.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed.

Build trails on public lands and safe B-lines become necessary not only to protect the A-line feature from being sanitized but also to minimize serious injuries to noobs which keep landmanagers happy and trails open to mtbrs.

Even bikeparks on private property often have then because let's face it, inexperienced riders gonna ignore signage and get themselves in "oh, crap I need to bail" moments.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

A trail I worked on a few years ago was considered intermediate but also connected the system much closer into town, so it needed easy ride-arounds for any features. I get that, but then again we built it as such.

At my local riding spot we have true freeride trails. Many of the features don't have ride-arounds and are even too difficult to walk around without a hassle... I also get that, but then again it was built as such.

Horses for courses, but at the end of the day the right to decide what changes are made to a trail should be left to builders and land managers. *If you don't know who either are then don't mess with anything. If you do then ask them first.* Pretty simple really.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

TheDwayyo said:


> A trail I worked on a few years ago was considered intermediate but also connected the system much closer into town, so it needed easy ride-arounds for any features. I get that, but then again we built it as such.
> 
> At my local riding spot we have true freeride trails. Many of the features don't have ride-arounds and are even too difficult to walk around without a hassle... I also get that, but then again it was built as such.
> 
> Horses for courses, but at the end of the day the right to decide what changes are made to a trail should be left to builders and land managers. *If you don't know who either are then don't mess with anything. If you do then ask them first.* Pretty simple really.


Amen. Well said

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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

_CJ said:


> Jesus, talk about sanitizing the natural terrain.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, it's a stretch to even call that mountain biking. Stunt riding maybe, but not mountain biking.





sXeXBMXer said:


> sort of in the same camp...


If you don't consider that mountain biking then chances are good I don't consider what you do mountain biking... But the difference is I don't feel the need to post about how my definition is more valid than yours. (Well I didn't until I read this anyway.)


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

TheDwayyo said:


> If you don't consider that mountain biking then chances are good I don't consider what you do mountain biking... But the difference is I don't feel the need to post about how my definition is more valid than yours. (Well I didn't until I read this anyway.)


Well I don't call u a mountain biker either then. Back in my day, we built trails with a hand shovel and Dixie cup. We would then ride those trails on steel fixed gear bikes with no suspension. We used no helmets or body armor. When we fell we just shook it off and loved it. That's mountain biking.

Seriously, I think all this trail building and new bikes have made mountain biking so much more fun. Something for everyone, with well built trails and features allowing for progression. These new crop of young riders are amazing. It has even made us old guys pretty good too.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TheDwayyo said:


> Horses for courses, but at the end of the day the right to decide what changes are made to a trail should be left to builders and land managers. *If you don't know who either are then don't mess with anything. If you do then ask them first.* Pretty simple really.


Not always that simple. My local riding area has been around for a very long time and way back in time is was used for 4 wheeling and other OHV use( as far back as the 60's from what I have been told). Eventually the management changed and part of the area was turned to homes, and all OHV use was prohibited.

Now this area is in managed by 3 different agencies, one part, the only "official" part and the smallest part is managed by the City. The trails run by the city are all about the width of 2 or 3 people abreast, not true single track, and they are multi-use for Biking and hiking only, no horses. There are a few Single Track trails on this land, but they are not marked and the City does ZERO trail maintenance, but they are quick to close down any new building). The only "enforcement" on this land is the City run conservation corps of Volunteer rangers that either drive around on the roads from time to time(sometimes after the rain leaving deep tire tracks on the road......) or hike some of it asking people to stay on designated trails and leash their dogs, but they cannot write tickets, only observed and report to the police if something major is happening.

The next Area is managed by the Water District as they have a water tower on it. There are some area's on the water districts land that have separate fencing for a Conservation project that ended in 1998, but the Fencing was never pulled down and there is a long line of Concrete K Rail running down the middle of it. There are all sorts of trails on this section of land and it is not clearly marked by any agency as to who actually manages it. Some trails harken back to the days of OHV use, some are new in the last few years. It is hard to tell when you are leaving the actual city run preserve and entering the Water district land. When users have tried to put bridges up and over the K Rails someone is quick to remove them, I am guessing the Water District since i have never seen the City rangers venture that far south.

The last area is all managed by the California Department of Fish and Game and like the Water District land it has multiple trails of varied history. In the 8 years I have been a regular out there Fish n Game has been known to show up twice, both times they removed some of the dirt jumps on one trail and fenced off some creek crossings and removed some bridges over the creeks. All the signage and fencing they put up was torn down within a day or two. I never actually got to see any of this in person due to users ripping it down.

Technically no one is supposed to be on parts of this land either, but it is regularly used by Hikers, MTBers and Horseback riders with zero enforcement. The horseback riders are able to ride directly in from the South as the Park backs up to Privately held land, much of it farm land and large estates with Dirt roads and horse property.

I have not personally seen any trail sanitation out there, but I have gone out after a rain to help rebuild some berms and create better water escapes to keep ruts from forming.

The last time there was an official trail build day was over 5 years ago, one rep from Fish n Game was there and we were all technically improving water flow on one trail, but that trail is considered part of the approved trail system - it connects Fish n Game land to City Land.

I have seen the "dirt jump" style trail change over the years, some jumps have become larger, some alternate lines have been made either to make a section harder or easier, both have been put in after the original trail was made so both easier and harder lines would be considered B-Lines or Alt-Lines in my opinion.

One of the best trails has only become better as more berms were installed and users have gone out and done trail work on their own, myself included.

There is no way to know who the Original trail builder was, heck they might be dead or not live in the area anymore. The Land Mangers are basically turning a blind eye with a show of enforcement once every three years or so and only for one day at the most.

So, to make a blanket statement that there is one Simple solution to who gets to make or alter trails is ignorant. Perhaps in some area's it is very simple, but not in all area's.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

TheDwayyo said:


> If you don't consider that mountain biking then chances are good I don't consider what you do mountain biking... But the difference is I don't feel the need to post about how my definition is more valid than yours. (Well I didn't until I read this anyway.)


Well, if you have paid attention to any of my posts in most forums here, you will know that I NEVER try to validate the way I ride as "better" or more legit than anyone else. I am usually just making an observation about things....thinking out loud. I did not say that what DH'rs do is better, or worse. Just in my own world...and with what MTBing was when I was first exposed, the DH stuff IS a way different way to ride...NOT BAD, but just different


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

This thread should fit in Norcal forum. Somehow people here think that a trail means a flow trail. You have to go to Tahoe for long miles of real trails.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

CrozCountry said:


> This thread should fit in Norcal forum. Somehow people here think that a trail means a flow trail. You have to go to Tahoe for long miles of real trails.


No, this trail has nothing to do with Norcal specifically. The Norcal forum needs to go back to Norcal specific threads and stop trying to be it's own General Forum.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Silentfoe said:


> No, this trail has nothing to do with Norcal specifically. The Norcal forum needs to go back to Norcal specific threads and stop trying to be it's own General Forum.


This is very very true. NorCal is a mess of a forum. Most of the posts there belong here in General.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Well, if you have paid attention to any of my posts in most forums here, you will know that I NEVER try to validate the way I ride as "better" or more legit than anyone else. I am usually just making an observation about things....thinking out loud. I did not say that what DH'rs do is better, or worse. Just in my own world...and with what MTBing was when I was first exposed, the DH stuff IS a way different way to ride...NOT BAD, but just different


Yeah, it's seriously cool watching people make stuff like that look easy. Really opens up your eyes as to what's possible on a bike. And how flat-out shitty the vast majority of us XC/trail riders are when it comes to bike handling. Spend a season or two riding DH semi-regularly and your trail skills will improve immensely, guaranteed.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, it's seriously cool watching people make stuff like that look easy. Really opens up your eyes as to what's possible on a bike. And how flat-out shitty the vast majority of us XC/trail riders are when it comes to bike handling. Spend a season or two riding DH semi-regularly and your trail skills will improve immensely, guaranteed.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, it's seriously cool watching people make stuff like that look easy. Really opens up your eyes as to what's possible on a bike. And how flat-out shitty the vast majority of us XC/trail riders are when it comes to bike handling. Spend a season or two riding DH semi-regularly and your trail skills will improve immensely, guaranteed.


So true. Going to the pump/jump track - even though I suck - has made me such a better rider on the trail. I find that I am jumping and getting over things like I never could. I love the influence of all the disciplines.

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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yeah, it's seriously cool watching people make stuff like that look easy. Really opens up your eyes as to what's possible on a bike. And how flat-out shitty the vast majority of us XC/trail riders are when it comes to bike handling. Spend a season or two riding DH semi-regularly and your trail skills will improve immensely, guaranteed.


yeah...it makes me wish I would have taken it more seriously when I was younger and went through all of the "fail" when my body would heal quicker. I KNOW my bike handling skills are not where they should be...or used to be. Plus it would be awesome to be so comfortable about your riding skills and bike building skills to be able to be "free" enough to do that.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

sfainbraun said:


> So true. Going to the pump/jump track - even though I suck - has made me such a better rider on the trail. I find that I am jumping and getting over things like I never could. I love the influence of all the disciplines.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear ya...I have gotten back into BMX as well, and that has helped me "refind" some confidence and strength that I used to have...plus just riding more has helped my overall strength


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

sfainbraun said:


> So true. Going to the pump/jump track - even though I suck - has made me such a better rider on the trail. I find that I am jumping and getting over things like I never could. I love the influence of all the disciplines.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm with you, not that I have the balls to hit big doubles or drops or anything, but riding the jump track has definitely been a big confidence booster. Doing gravity fed stuff totally makes you look at your regular trail ride/xc stuff much differently. Things that were huge to me on the xc trails a couple years ago are super fun now all because of it. Just wish I had better fitness... but that's a whole 'nother topic.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

mattyice said:


> I'm with you, not that I have the balls to hit big doubles or drops or anything, but riding the jump track has definitely been a big confidence booster. Doing gravity fed stuff totally makes you look at your regular trail ride/xc stuff much differently. Things that were huge to me on the xc trails a couple years ago are super fun now all because of it. Just wish I had better fitness... but that's a whole 'nother topic.


I'm ok with the fitness but wish I started this new learning phase when I was much much younger and when falling didn't matter that much. However it is amazing what a better rider it makes you. Like you - I roll or jump over things that I used to walk. Almost nothing is too steep (around me) and look for things to pop off. I'm a much better rider for it.

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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

I was a total XC guy three years ago, now at thirty the vast majority of my rides include at least one DH/freeride trail... Usually my whole route is planned to end with a DH run. I'm totally comfortable with any hucks under around six feet, even to flat. I credit my progression to the quality of trails in my area. I always have that 'next' feature on my list that I know is the perfect next step to pushing my progression. If all I had was two foot drops and ten foot drops I probably would have never made it up to the big stuff.

I think in a lot of areas people don't like gravity stuff because they just don't have enough access to get comfortable with it. Back in my XC days a guy told me I wasn't in to gravity simply because I didn't have the bike... Then I got a trail bike and got obsessed. He was right.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

TheDwayyo said:


> I was a total XC guy three years ago, now at thirty the vast majority of my rides include at least one DH/freeride trail... Usually my whole route is planned to end with a DH run. I'm totally comfortable with any hucks under around six feet, even to flat. I credit my progression to the quality of trails in my area. I always have that 'next' feature on my list that I know is the perfect next step to pushing my progression. If all I had was two foot drops and ten foot drops I probably would have never made it up to the big stuff.
> 
> I think in a lot of areas people don't like gravity stuff because they just don't have enough access to get comfortable with it. Back in my XC days a guy told me I wasn't in to gravity simply because I didn't have the bike... Then I got a trail bike and got obsessed. He was right.


So on the money. I don't think people realize how important progression is once you have the basic skills. Learn to manual off a curve and any drop is easy but not to the mind. After that a one foot drop will seem easy then after you get comfortable there a two-three foot drop doesn't seem so bad after that doing a six foot drop isn't out of the picture. It's all about base skills and progression.

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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

Chock another one up for not hitting a bike park until the ripe old age of 36 this year and it has helped me break through some plateaus I have had with drops, but am also experiencing the slower healing times compared to when I was younger. I am still not confident enough to hit anything over 3ft to flat. I am not sure if hitting bigger drops is really worth the risk for me at this point. I hate having to take a week or two off from biking to heal up. 

I initially went to our local park to help my wife out and ended up getting just as much out of it as she did. Even she was pretty stoked on the skills she was able to quickly pick up and progress on.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Steezus said:


> Chock another one up for not hitting a bike park until the ripe old age of 36 this year and it has helped me break through some plateaus I have had with drops, but am also experiencing the slower healing times compared to when I was younger. I am still not confident enough to hit anything over 3ft to flat. I am not sure if hitting bigger drops is really worth the risk for me at this point. I hate having to take a week or two off from biking to heal up.
> 
> I initially went to our local park to help my wife out and ended up getting just as much out of it as she did. Even she was pretty stoked on the skills she was able to quickly pick up and progress on.


Yeah - I'm with you. I wiped out on a berm last year and my shoulder still hurts. Four foot drops and little jumps are good enough for me. I can get down the trail pretty fast now and playful. I do like cornering as fast as possible. Anything else just isn't worth the risk. Being out for weeks sucks big time.

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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Steezus said:


> I am not sure if hitting bigger drops is really worth the risk for me at this point.


Something I never hear anyone talk about is the monetary cost of getting it wrong when taking big chances. If you work a job that requires some level of mobility, getting seriously injured can really mess up your life. Add in high deductible healthcare plans, and it's a wonder anyone pushes their limits. The only people I know who take big chances these days are school teachers. Killer healthcare/disability benefits, tons of time off to heal up, and can easily do their job with broken arm, leg, etc.

On the skills end, I don't know, I grew up riding BMX in the 70's, crashed hard when I was made of rubber (and my farther's insurance co-pay was $3), and never really had to re-learn that stuff. There was a period where I took bigger and bigger risks, jumping stuff, drops and all that. Never got hurt, but just kind of came to the realization that it wasn't doing anything for me. I didn't get anything out of people being impressed by the stunts, and doing the stunts themselves didn't really excite me, or make me feel better about myself for having done them, so I took a long hard look at what I really did like, and came to the realization that it's speed, rhythm, and flow. Gnar-gnar, and tech do nothing for me. Frankly, it's kind of boring.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> , so I took a long hard look at what I really did like, and came to the realization that it's speed, rhythm, and flow. Gnar-gnar, and tech do nothing for me. Frankly, it's kind of boring.


And of course, many find the opposite to be true.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I like it all. Speed, rhythm, flow and the technical. I fact, I prefer the technical over speed.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> I like it all. Speed, rhythm, flow and the technical. I fact, I prefer the technical over speed.


I like it all as well but other way than you. Love, love, love speed. However, it's all good and admire and respect all riders.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

For good riders, speed and tech are not mutually exclusive.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> For good riders, speed and tech are not mutually exclusive.


When I think of speed I don't always think of exclusively flowy rhythm trails - a downhill track is both technical and fast. I like going fast - the faster you go, the easier some technical areas are. So I put all of this in the speed category.

When I think of truly technical, I think about the rocky ledgy places that even the best riders have to go slow and you need to have trials like skills to get through quickly.

Personally I will take the first.

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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

I like to remove my front wheel and manual down the trails. I admit I have sanitized a few rocks with Kashima coating so I can get through those sections a little faster.


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## BykerMike (Aug 3, 2016)

I'd love to see some flow trails put in near me. I need to drive for hours for that kind of ride. There is a bit of techy singletrack near me which I love, but variety is the spice of life. 

I agree with most of the thread to not build on trails that aren't yours whether dumbing down or trying to add "features". I can hear my dad's voice saying "if it ain't yours don't f*** with it"


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

_CJ said:


> The only people I know who take big chances these days are school teachers. Killer healthcare/disability benefits, tons of time off to heal up, and can easily do their job with broken arm, leg, etc.


You are obviously not a school teacher. I am, and my healthcare is mediocre, time off limited to sick days or unpaid leave, and I am required to use my arms and legs to teach students and accomplish other teacher duties. Please let me know where this magical world for teachers is. I'd even settle for decent pay.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You are obviously not a school teacher. I am, and my healthcare is mediocre, time off limited to sick days or unpaid leave, and I am required to use my arms and legs to teach students and accomplish other teacher duties. Please let me know where this magical world for teachers is. I'd even settle for decent pay.


Arkansas has pretty dang good insurance, pay would be dependent on where you are. If you are in the areas where the good riding is pay isn't too shabby.

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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Steezus said:


> I like to remove my front wheel and manual down the trails. I admit I have sanitized a few rocks with Kashima coating so I can get through those sections a little faster.


Dude - that's nothing. Sometimes I remove both wheels and just get air over the whole trail. With steez of course. Also, If it's a hot day and I've drank a lot of water, I like to sanitize the trails naturally if you know what I mean.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You are obviously not a school teacher. I am, and my healthcare is mediocre, time off limited to sick days or unpaid leave, and I am required to use my arms and legs to teach students and accomplish other teacher duties. Please let me know where this magical world for teachers is. I'd even settle for decent pay.


Maybe you're only supposed to crash at the beginning of summer break and have a spouse in the upper echelons of government?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

chazpat said:


> Maybe you're only supposed to crash at the beginning of summer break and have a spouse in the upper echelons of government?


That must be what he was referring to.


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## Steezus (Jul 25, 2007)

sfainbraun said:


> Dude - that's nothing. Sometimes I remove both wheels and just get air over the whole trail. With steez of course. Also, If it's a hot day and I've drank a lot of water, I like to sanitize the trails naturally if you know what I mean.


Levitation is the worst form of sanitation there is. I get angry just thinking about it.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Steezus said:


> Levitation is the worst form of sanitation there is. I get angry just thinking about it.


It is. My sanitation gets all over the trail from the air.

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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You are obviously not a school teacher. I am, and my healthcare is mediocre, time off limited to sick days or unpaid leave, and I am required to use my arms and legs to teach students and accomplish other teacher duties. Please let me know where this magical world for teachers is. I'd even settle for decent pay.


C'mon bro....when you add up summer break, winter break, harvest break, spring break, extra added breaks for no reason, snow days, vacation, sick pay, personal time, etc. etc. etc., I'd be surprised if you people worked more than six months a year. And I know you all like to tell each other how hard off you have it, and how little you get paid, but please....you do just fine, and frankly the teachers I know do better than most other people their age. Most of you have no idea how hellish life is for most civilian employees. Let's not even get into retirement. Fact is, teacher's unions have done well for you.

Disclosure: My above statements are based almost entirely in jealousy. I should have listened to my college professor when he told us all to change our majors and get into teaching.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

_CJ said:


> C'mon bro....when you add up summer break, winter break, harvest break, spring break, extra added breaks for no reason, snow days, vacation, sick pay, personal time, etc. etc. etc., I'd be surprised if you people worked more than six months a year. And I know you all like to tell each other how hard off you have it, and how little you get paid, but please....you do just fine, and frankly the teachers I know do better than most other people their age. Most of you have no idea how hellish life is for most civilian employees. Let's not even get into retirement. Fact is, teacher's unions have done well for you.
> 
> Disclosure: My above statements are based almost entirely in jealousy. I should have listened to my college professor when he told us all to change our majors and get into teaching.


You are so completely wrong that I almost feel less insulted. Sorry to derail this thread, but I'll leave this link in case you care enough to inform yourself.

Colorado teachers struggle with low salaries, report shows | CPR


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You are so completely wrong that I almost feel less insulted. Very little of what you said is legitimate, but don't let facts alter your bias.


As the son of two teachers I couldn't agree with you more. He has a completely inaccurate and twisted view of the profession and things that go into and along with it.

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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

_CJ said:


> Something I never hear anyone talk about is the monetary cost of getting it wrong when taking big chances. If you work a job that requires some level of mobility, getting seriously injured can really mess up your life. Add in high deductible healthcare plans, and it's a wonder anyone pushes their limits. The only people I know who take big chances these days are school teachers. Killer healthcare/disability benefits, tons of time off to heal up, and can easily do their job with broken arm, leg, etc.


Not r eally true in my case. I wish it were. 

I'm a high school teacher in a huge high school between two of the biggest cities in the U.S. I know a lot of teachers and almost none have ever been on a non-Wallyride mtb on real XC trails let alone do what you're talking about. I'm laughing just picturing my colleagues hucking stuff, gap jumping roads, or getting big air. Out-of-shape huffing and puffing while running to the copier is about it for some of them. They think mountain biking (and me) are nuts.

Been doing XC, DJ, and DH for more than 25 years and teaching for 18. I have more than 155 freshmen and seniors in classes of nearly 30 or more each. TBH, a good teacher doesn't sit behind a desk and do their job well and definitely won't with broken limbs - you need to be constantly mobile to keep on top of things. Mountain biking and trailbuilding are my gym plus students seem to have more respect for teachers who stay active.

The other thing is DH gets too stinking hot geared up on the lift under that summer sun where I live. I go in the spring and fall. It'll screw with my lesson planning big time if I eat it on the hill so I keep it mellow.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You are obviously not a school teacher. I am, and my healthcare is mediocre, time off limited to sick days or unpaid leave, and I am required to use my arms and legs to teach students and accomplish other teacher duties. Please let me know where this magical world for teachers is. I'd even settle for decent pay.


...I am a Catholic School teacher, so it is even worse...and I am a band director/percussion instructor, so I do need to not only move around, but I do use my limbs.

none of this has ever stopped me though. All of my major hockey injuries (shattered elbow; torn rotator cuff; and near hip dislocation this past spring) happened as a teacher. Other than the 1 or 2 days directly after, I didn't miss anything. You have to just keep going or things can become boring.

I am always explain why my shins look like a dart board or hamburger to the kids.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

_CJ said:


> C'mon bro....when you add up summer break, winter break, harvest break, spring break, extra added breaks for no reason, snow days, vacation, sick pay, personal time, etc. etc. etc., I'd be surprised if you people worked more than six months a year. And I know you all like to tell each other how hard off you have it, and how little you get paid, but please....you do just fine, and frankly the teachers I know do better than most other people their age. Most of you have no idea how hellish life is for most civilian employees. Let's not even get into retirement. Fact is, teacher's unions have done well for you.
> 
> Disclosure: My above statements are based almost entirely in jealousy. I should have listened to my college professor when he told us all to change our majors and get into teaching.


while I sort of get it that you are possibly joking...and trying not to get off topic...

try working in a job where no matter what, you are wrong; what you do is always questioned from a negative bent; where you have no support from your higher ups; where the people who are supposed to respect you have more rights when they DON'T respect you and get caught for it; where you are guilty before proven anything in mist situations dealing with discipline and classroom control; where you are completely out of control of how much you get payed;

Every job has positives and negatives. I can't complain at all b/c I work in a Catholic School where I DON'T have to worry about many of the things above. I don't get payed a lot, but I have enough to keep my head dry and tires on my bikes. Personally, being a band director, I don't get summers, or breaks off because of practice or travel. (So my breaks are spent coralling and babysitting 50-80 kids as they get lost, sick, in trouble etc...at XXXX theme-park...and then get yelled at or nasty emails from home when little Johnny "didn't have fun because he was sick. What did you do to rectify this?".....) I teach in 2 different schools at middle and high school level...doing the work of 3 people...getting payed for 1. I love what I do. I will have to work until I am 65 in order to claim full retirement...which will be half of what I make right now.

"Civilian" jobs would not exist if it wasn't for teachers...ALL jobs would not exist without teachers because someone has to impart all elements of knowledge that one needs to find a career. I wish I had a "civilian" job so that I could sit in a cubicle, or on an airplane, or in a truck, or in a boardroom and play on the internet. I wish I had a civilian job so that I could f-up on the job and not get in trouble, or if I did get fired, I could just go somewhere else and get the same job. I wish I had a civilian job so that what I did really makes no lasting difference in the ongoing existence of humanity, and therefor does not require me to care about being involved with it. I wish I had a civilian job that payed me 50x more than the work I am actually doing. ....< just my own personal list of generalizations about non-teaching jobs...(I don't really wish any of this...but I am glad that I do what I do, and actually think that a "civilian" job would be a living hell)

I also wish people would leave trails alone, ride what comes up in front of them, and own fully rigid bikes...there, now we are back on topic!


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Something I never hear anyone talk about is the monetary cost of getting it wrong when taking big chances. If you work a job that requires some level of mobility, getting seriously injured can really mess up your life. Add in high deductible healthcare plans, and it's a wonder anyone pushes their limits. The only people I know who take big chances these days are school teachers. Killer healthcare/disability benefits, tons of time off to heal up, and can easily do their job with broken arm, leg, etc.


That's cause the people that ride cause they truly love riding don't care. They are going to ride no matter what. You can get hurt doing ANYTHING.

I did a grade 3 AC separation and tore my pectorial muscle the last weekend of August. 3.5 weeks later I was back at work and doing my rehab. I'm a auto tech so no time to sit around and no easy days. My goal wasn't to get back on the bike or do a pull up, my goal was to ride park before it closed for the season. There was no rest and take it easy and I pushed harder to recover cause I wanted to ride.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Yepper, you knuckleheads have done a fine job of derailment. You need your own thread.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> Yepper, you knuckleheads have done a fine job of derailment. You need your own thread.


   

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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

hey, I tried to bring it back around.....


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Cleared2land said:


> Yepper, you knuckleheads have done a fine job of derailment. You need your own thread.


It's the B-line around the main topic of the thread.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> No, this trail has nothing to do with Norcal specifically. The Norcal forum needs to go back to Norcal specific threads and stop trying to be it's own General Forum.


I am talking about the need to have a discussion like this in norcal (about norcal only trails).Norcal forum is mostly about that area.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> For good riders, speed and tech are not mutually exclusive.


 I like a safe mix of the two, Trials moves, linking together. And repeat. Now add snow, ice and studded tires. Wheeee....


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

dirtrider76 said:


> It's the B-line around the main topic of the thread.


Did we just sanitize this thread? 

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfainbraun said:


> Did we just sanitize this thread?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm going with some added difficulty lines.

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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I'm going with some added difficulty lines.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk


Yeah - I didn't have the technical skills to descend the whole school teacher line so I just got off the bike and walked.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cheater line skirting the real issue, which is why bother preaching to the choir?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfainbraun said:


> Yeah - I didn't have the technical skills to descend the whole school teacher line so I just got off the bike and walked.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't either, just bombed it and got lucky.

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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I didn't either, just bombed it and got lucky.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk




The trail sanitization issue is real and not minimizing it at all. I find that sometimes on the forums, we need to take deep breaths. It's biking people and we should consider ourselves lucky. Lucky to have places to ride, lucky that there are so many different options on trails and bikes. And lucky to be able to virtually communicate with fellow passionate bikers all over the country.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfainbraun said:


> The trail sanitization issue is real and not minimizing it at all. I find that sometimes on the forums, we need to take deep breaths. It's biking people and we should consider ourselves lucky. Lucky to have places to ride, lucky that there are so many different options on trails and bikes. And lucky to be able to virtually communicate with fellow passionate bikers all over the country.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed, we're lucky here. Almost everything we ride here is purpose built for bikes so while there is some braiding it's not as bad as other places. We also have a full-time professional trail maintenance crew, local clubs do help with this, so either the braid is incorporated into the official route or closed.

We have had some roots cut out to make things easier/less sketch which sucks IMO, but that was the official decision so I can live with it. The worst was the removal of a 7' tall teeter-totter, I absolutely loved that thing.

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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

It's funny cause now I can roll over logs or just bunny hop them but there was a time I couldn't so I was happy to get on trails that were cleaned up a little. It made me ride more which eventually got me to ride better, which eventually got me to get over obstacles. I think if you have shared single track then that stuff is better cleaned up. If you have purpose built trails, then have ride arounds and line choices. But I do see how people get mad when these things get cleaned up as it makes trails less challenging - especially in areas without a lot of riding choices. Again - it's all good just as long as people are respectful and considerate of others. I do get pissed when people mess with trails when they shouldn't. It's inconsiderate. 


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^ bunny hop a log? Not the best idea. I roll up and wheelie then the rear wheel just rolls over, using your body english to get your weight over the rear tire as you go over. Next log here I come.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^ bunny hop a log? Not the best idea. I roll up and wheelie then the rear wheel just rolls over. Next log here I come.


Sorry. Bunny hop small logs where I'm not going to kill myself. Anything of substance I roll over as well.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sfainbraun said:


> Sorry. Bunny hop small logs where I'm not going to kill myself. Anything of substance I roll over as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I added some body English to that post.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I added some body English to that post.


Funny, I didn't even notice you didn't have that in there cause I know exactly what you meant. Lotsa body English to get the rear over large logs.

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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^ bunny hop a log? Not the best idea. I roll up and wheelie then the rear wheel just rolls over, using your body english to get your weight over the rear tire as you go over. Next log here I come.


Actually wheelie is not the best idea. Maybe for small logs which you can ride over anyways.
You are either too slow to get the rear to roll over seated down, or in higher speed the rear will bounce up really hard like a rodeo horse. This is a motorcycle technique that relies on a power spike when the rear hits the log (like a second wheelie). Bikes don't have an engine.

If you have any decent speed you have to unload the weight from the rear standing up. Watch the video:






Back to original programming.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

CrozCountry said:


> Actually wheelie is not the best idea. Maybe for small logs which you can ride over anyways.
> You are either too slow to get the rear to roll over seated down, or in higher speed the rear will bounce up really hard like a rodeo horse. This is a motorcycle technique that relies on a power spike when the rear hits the log (like a second wheelie). Bikes don't have an engine.
> 
> If you have any decent speed you have to unload the weight from the rear standing up. Watch the video:
> ...


This is great!! Thanks for posting. The first way is what I do. For a log like in the video, I'm comfortable bunny hopping (if I know the trail and the landing). But for larger logs, it's like in the video, which effectively is the same movement as a bunny hop but with the assistance of the log.

Love these videos - I learned from Ryan Leach's website. Sometimes at slower speed I will do a pedal wheelie and a quick ratchet but at this point I'm really comfortable doing it with a manual.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

CrozCountry said:


> Actually wheelie is not the best idea. Maybe for small logs which you can ride over anyways.
> You are either too slow to get the rear to roll over seated down, or in higher speed the rear will bounce up really hard like a rodeo horse. This is a motorcycle technique that relies on a power spike when the rear hits the log (like a second wheelie). Bikes don't have an engine.
> 
> If you have any decent speed you have to unload the weight from the rear standing up. Watch the video:
> ...


Actually that video shows all of my techniques of doing it. I mentioned the wheelie technique to steer beginners away from trying to bunny hop before learning the wheelie technique. And my explanation of it was identical to the video.


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Actually that video shows all of my techniques of doing it. I mentioned the wheelie technique to steer beginners away from trying to bunny hop before learning the wheelie technique.


100 percent. I leaned to wheelie first and started using that on the trail. Then I learned to manual and used it on step ups and ledges and finally after tons of rear wheel lifts (I use flats) and learning to do small jumps, I started working on bunny hops. Because it took me so long and I worked on base skills, my initial movement to get the bike off the ground is to use body weight or torque instead of pulling up. This has helped on jumps, drops and everything else. It's all about progression I've learned. I wish all this great info was around when I was younger. So much easier to learn these days.

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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Where's my saw so I can cut that log outta the trail?


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## sfainbraun (Feb 5, 2016)

Rod said:


> Where's my saw so I can cut that log outta the trail?


????????????

That was awesome.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Rod said:


> Where's my saw so I can cut that log outta the trail?


I could have sworn I saw it.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

What is the correct term for the opposite of sanitizing?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lone Rager said:


> What is the correct term for the opposite of sanitizing?


Bastardizing.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^ bunny hop a log? Not the best idea. I roll up and wheelie then the rear wheel just rolls over, using your body english to get your weight over the rear tire as you go over. Next log here I come.


 I do the 6" ones at speed so you don't have to slow down. Isn't that the point?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Lone Rager said:


> What is the correct term for the opposite of sanitizing?


 Ride the trails, pick your lines, pedal. And don't pick up any sticks?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Lone Rager said:


> What is the correct term for the opposite of sanitizing?


Contaminating


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## Ksanman (Feb 15, 2016)

I really wanted to contribute to this a thread but it may be too late... I think there are several reasons for trail sanitation. Some good some bad.

1. Under skilled people. I was taking a skills clinic at a local resort and have a prime example of douchebag riders. During the summer, Senior Citizens migrate from down south to enjoy the summer and take up activities including mountain biking. (Note: I have nothing against senior citizens mountain biking.) The coach and I stopped everyone once in a while to talk skills before attepting them and we're constantly passing this senior citizen couple on the trail. They were slowwwwwww. We even waited as the couple walked down a banked turn on their xc bikes. A few turns later we stop as a beginner clinic attempted a feature. The couple comes through and the lady was screaming about how slow they were and how fast she was and how entitled the trail was to be clear for her. My couch almost flipped one at her. Now I have come across a ton of senior citizens on the dh trails walking or riding slow. It's a hazard for us faster riders. My point is I think there are a select few underskilled riders who have a lot more time to be involved in the community or have a lot of money. Their voice gets heard, and the trails on public land get changed to be made for everyone. 

2. I built a trail with a local trail crew recently. The guy over it was an mtber and studied trail building and advocacy. While it was an xc race course, we did take a lot of rocks and roots out. This was mostly to prevent erosion. Sometimes features would interrupt the flow of the trail, like stopping on 20% grade turn. I think that's a good idea to remove. We still left a lot of stuff in when we could contrary to the guy who wanted "to remove all rocks to it was a nice flat fast ride." He didn't work super hard to build the trail and complained all day as well. He also left early, probably to ride his 6" on a fire road.

3. Mountain biking is growing. There are a lot more beginners than before and they need places to ride. I've noticed all the trails closer to the population center and become more sanitized to handle the skill and amount of people riding them (natural sanitation?). Luckily I still know where the secret obscure hardcore downhill trails are where only a select few ride, because a beginner or dirt roadie could never pedal there. 

Rant/opinion over.
TL;DR - mountain biking is growing, there lots more riders and beginners. The far away stuff is still good (around here).


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Ksanman said:


> I really wanted to contribute to this a thread but it may be too late... I think there are several reasons for trail sanitation. Some good some bad.
> 
> 1. Under skilled people. I was taking a skills clinic at a local resort and have a prime example of douchebag riders. During the summer, Senior Citizens migrate from down south to enjoy the summer and take up activities including mountain biking. (Note: I have nothing against senior citizens mountain biking.) The coach and I stopped everyone once in a while to talk skills before attepting them and we're constantly passing this senior citizen couple on the trail. They were slowwwwwww. We even waited as the couple walked down a banked turn on their xc bikes. A few turns later we stop as a beginner clinic attempted a feature. The couple comes through and the lady was screaming about how slow they were and how fast she was and how entitled the trail was to be clear for her. My couch almost flipped one at her. Now I have come across a ton of senior citizens on the dh trails walking or riding slow. It's a hazard for us faster riders. My point is I think there are a select few underskilled riders who have a lot more time to be involved in the community or have a lot of money. Their voice gets heard, and the trails on public land get changed to be made for everyone.


First, you are not too late to contribute so don't get discouraged. Second, however, I think the main contribution will be senior citizens = Douchebag riders (in your new of the woods). I for one did not see that association coming at all.

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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

I sanitize trails. In fact, I sometimes join a group of enthusiasts to sanitize trails, and we've done so on at least 5 entire trail systems over a series of years.

To _not_ sanitize the trails in our area would lead to the trails quickly becoming impassable.

Spring winds can drop dozens of trees across a trail, not to mention deadfall. This stuff is very rarely "hop-able".

Summer growth regularly chokes off trails with leaves, branches, vines, brambles, thorns, etc.

Runoff from rainstorms can remove entire sections of trail. Muddy spots quickly become expansive bogs.

Winter freeze & thaw breaks rocks loose and litters them about. Bedded-in rock gardens become a skating rink of loose babies heads every Spring.

In the course of a season, almost every trail will exhibit a change in character away from what the trail's creator had in mind.

In fact, Biking organizations and Trail Coordinators regularly encourage riders to clear obstructions (within reason) and/or post the locations of the troublespots so that other riders will not be caught off guard, and volunteers can clean-up the area.

I understand the premise of this thread, and yes, bandit changes to our trails do pop up, but since those lines are not maintained, Mother Nature generally obliterates them within a year.

And yes, we are sometimes called out for dumbing-down a feature, but for the most part these changes are done to aid *sustainability*; if not modified, a whole section of trail could be rendered un-ride-able within a year just due to the impact of the seasons.

We have a wide variety of trail systems to choose from. Some are Carbon-Rigid, Full-Tuck, Aero-Helmet smooth & fast, some are Full-Sus, Body-Armour battlefields, while most are somewhere in-between; so if someone doesn't feel challenged enough, they can choose a different trail.

So around here (Michigan) we say thanks to those with servant's hearts that give of their time & resources, because *ALL* these trails need regular sanitizing to remain ride-able. :thumbsup:


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

@CaptDan I would say you are doing trail maintenance, not sanitization


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

CrozCountry said:


> @CaptDan I would say you are doing trail maintenance, not sanitization


Yeah, big difference.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Rod said:


> Where's my saw so I can cut that log outta the trail?


yeah. i could never get my beach cruiser around that....


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

sXeXBMXer said:


> yeah. i could never get my beach cruiser around that....


Lol the sad thing is someone cut out a similar tree on my trail. Maybe their main ride was a beach cruiser

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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

CrozCountry said:


> @CaptDan I would say you are doing trail maintenance, not sanitization


definitely trail maintenance.

Sanitizing would be coming in and bulldozing it to a gravel double track with a 2% grade, and adding benches every mile. Not that I have anything against 2%grade double wide gravel trails...*where they were originally built. *


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Rod said:


> Lol the sad thing is someone cut out a similar tree on my trail. Maybe their main ride was a beach cruiser
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


we actually had some trail vandalism happen this past summer to one of our local yokel trail. People dragging large clusters of branches onto the trail. Digging huge holes in places where it was "flowy". knocking down trees to block parts of it. It sort of sucked. It is a trail used by bikers, joggers, dog walkers...and sometimes neighborhood punx that go back in the woods and get stoned or other things. There was one place where they drug a bunch of garbage into a huge pile on the trail. Lots of tires, 2 shopping carts, a bunch of construction debris. They built a bon fire next to the pile on the trail, and the remnants of that were there too. I was wondering if it was a message. We cleaned it all up and nothing has happened since....


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

sXeXBMXer said:


> we actually had some trail vandalism happen this past summer to one of our local yokel trail. People dragging large clusters of branches onto the trail. Digging huge holes in places where it was "flowy". knocking down trees to block parts of it. It sort of sucked. It is a trail used by bikers, joggers, dog walkers...and sometimes neighborhood punx that go back in the woods and get stoned or other things. There was one place where they drug a bunch of garbage into a huge pile on the trail. Lots of tires, 2 shopping carts, a bunch of construction debris. They built a bon fire next to the pile on the trail, and the remnants of that were there too. I was wondering if it was a message. We cleaned it all up and nothing has happened since....


Oh wow. That took a lot of effort. I'm glad to hear nobody was hurt and the vandals went back into hiding

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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

CaptDan said:


> I sanitize trails. In fact, I sometimes join a group of enthusiasts to sanitize trails, and we've done so on at least 5 entire trail systems over a series of years.
> 
> So around here (Michigan) we say thanks to those with servant's hearts that give of their time & resources, because *ALL* these trails need regular sanitizing to remain ride-able. :thumbsup:


There's a significant difference between 'Sanitizing' and trail maintenance. In fact, a MAJOR difference. Do you really know know the difference?

I have been maintaining trails for many years and would never interchange those two words lightly.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cleared2land said:


> There's a significant difference between 'Sanitizing' and trail maintenance. In fact, a MAJOR difference. Do you really know know the difference?
> 
> I have been maintaining trails for many years and would never interchange those two word lightly.


The satire









Your head

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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

Cleared2land said:


> There's a significant difference between 'Sanitizing' and trail maintenance...


In my post I mentioned that trail maintenance volunteers in our area have been accused of sanitizing the trails, so my post was couched in the interpretation of the term as verbalized by fellow riders.



> I have been maintaining trails for many years...


And we thank you for your efforts! :thumbsup:

In the course of your work, have you ever been accused of sanitizing a trail? If you have, I imagine it pained you a bit (as it does us), because a sacrifice -- _to make things better_ -- is being misunderstood.

My post was meant to throw a light on how soo many people use the term Sanitizing without all having the same interpretation of the word.
I'm glad there have been responses 'cuz that shows that others recognize the variations in how people interpret trail "sanitation".

Merry Christmas!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^ ^ ^
Pretty simple to disinquish between the two.

*Trail maintenance =* Those that are legitimately working with the trail system as a group and are sanctioned to do so to improve any imperfection and maintain the trails. They can even be accused of sanitation depending on what they do.

*Rogue Sanitation =* Those that take it upon themselves to alter a trail or build alternate routes to suit their capabiliities or lack there of.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I can understand where CaptDan is coming from, I think most understand the difference but some of these posts seem to infer that messing with trails in any way shape or form is taboo unless you personally designed and built it. One poster mentioned that someone was a total @sshole because they moved a downed log.


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Pretty simple to disinquish between the two.
> *Trail maintenance =* Those that are legitimately working with the trail system as a group and are sanctioned to do so to improve any imperfection and maintain the trails. They can even be accused of sanitation depending on what they do.


And though the distinction is simple, not everyone agrees to the same meanings.
Even your description states that Maintenance can be misinterpreted as Sanitation by others.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sanitation = normal trail maintenance and clean up stuff. Blowdowns, faceslappers, debris, random loose rocks and sticks, on a bigger scale addressing erosion and saftery concerns...hell, we even leafblow a good bunch of trail in the fall once the oaks are done dropping. Trails definitely evolve and require upkeep. 

Sanitizaton = making it easier just to make it easier. Particularly egregious when it comes to established trail and/or sections that are obviously being ridden/attempted regularly by others.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

why doesn't someone post a sign not to sanitize trails?


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sanitation = normal trail maintenance and clean up stuff....
> Trails definitely evolve and require upkeep.
> 
> Sanitizaton = making it easier just to make it easier...


Sanitation vs Sanitization. Excellent catch. :thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

CaptDan said:


> Sanitation vs Sanitization. Excellent catch. :thumbsup:


No ****, I'll have what he's having please.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

I am surprised no one mentioned trail Satanization.


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## RobLyman (May 8, 2006)

CrozCountry said:


> I am surprised no one mentioned trail Satanization.


Isn't that in the eBikes forum?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

If you want to continue the teacher discussion:

http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/teachers-best-profession-worst-1031012.html#post12971584


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