# Tubeless -- Pros and Cons



## OCDirt (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm looking for information regarding tubleless tires -- pros and cons of tubes vs. tubeless.
Pretend I know NOTHING about this topic, because that's the truth.
Please provide a link or a brief run down.
Thanks.

OCDirt


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## sherijumper (Feb 19, 2007)

My little pros & cons list , I ran my first set last year and liked them so I just switched over another bike .

I don`t think the cons really are that bad though if you have the right equipment 

Pros
no pinch flats
can run lower pressure
lighter without tubes (if your into that sort of thing)

Cons 
Can be messy (with stans kit)
pain in the ass to inflate from 0 psi (unless you have a compressor)
you can be constantly topping off with air (almost daily)

There could be more I haven`t thought of yet , I`m still waking up


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

add
Pro
fewer flats due to thorns (using sealant, like stans) 

con
potential to burp (more so using non-UST)


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

do a search....this topic has been covered many, many times.....


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## CrimsonFox (Nov 19, 2008)

I just did a ghetto tubeless conversion. I took a 20" tube and cut it to use as a rim liner, I used my stock Kenda tire and added some Stans to seal the bead.

The down side was that it was difficult to set up. I had a heck of a time putting on the tires. It is really easy to tear the tubes you use as liners. Also, I had to add sealant before I could get the tire to inflate.

On the upside, they hold air well. I don't have to pump them up like I did with tubes. Even with thorns in the tires, the tires aren't losing air. With tubes, I noticed I would have to pump up the tubes after I got a thorn. The slime tubes take longer to seal.

I would suggest you buy a stem core remover, and a syringe to add sealant through the valve. It eliminates the need to break the seal to add more sealant, which reduces the change of making a mess, or tearing your liner trying to put the tire back on.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

If you are going tubless at least do it the correct way. Get UST rims and UST
tires. Sealant is optional. The Stans/ghetto setups are dangerous and waste
a lot of time for a lot of people . Just go browse the wheel/tire forum. You'd get
better answers there anyway.


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

chas_martel said:


> If you are going tubless at least do it the correct way. Get UST rims and UST
> tires. Sealant is optional. The Stans/ghetto setups are dangerous and waste
> a lot of time for a lot of people . Just go browse the wheel/tire forum. You'd get
> better answers there anyway.


As far as I know there are no UST rims/tires in a 29er option or a 650b I suppose. So that doesnt leave many options for the other riders (like myself).

Add Con
If you have a flexy sidewall you'll notice it way more

pink


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## Tzvia (Sep 7, 2008)

Tubeless is the way to go IMO. The feeling on the trail is almost as if the ride is plusher and faster. I have had no burping issues with either my tubeless ready rims or my regular rims that I converted with the Stans kit. The Stan's rim strips are easy to use and reuse and the tires mount easy, unlike the fun of reusing the cut 20" tubes in ghetto without ripping them. If you follow the videos on the Stans site, you will see that it is possible to inflate your tires without a compressor. Even though I have a 5' upright compressor in the garage, I work upstairs in the house with a floor pump with no issues. Don't skip the step of drilling out the inner wall of your rim to allow the rim strip to sit flush; this helps tire inflation and cuts down the chance the strip will get cut around the valve. Trust me, I know. 

Been tubeless since last November and am loving it.

I went with tubeless ready tires and Stans sealant, as I would need sealant anyway to seal small punctures, and did not feel the extra weight of UST was a good idea. It was easy to get the sidewalls to seal (again follow the videos).

Why not mosey over to the Stans website and view the setup videos for yourself; lots of good info.


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## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

chas_martel said:


> If you are going tubless at least do it the correct way. Get UST rims and UST
> tires. Sealant is optional. The Stans/ghetto setups are dangerous and waste
> a lot of time for a lot of people . Just go browse the wheel/tire forum. You'd get
> better answers there anyway.


dangerous!!

hahaha

ghetto is cheap and SUUUPER easy. anyone can do it correctly


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Con - A bit of a pain if you like to change tires frequently


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

jeffw-13 said:


> Con - A bit of a pain if you like to change tires frequently


Not if you are using a UST setup. In fact a strict UST setup is easier to change tires than a tube setup as there is not tube to worry about.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

Matt 891 said:


> dangerous!!
> 
> hahaha
> 
> ghetto is cheap and SUUUPER easy. anyone can do it correctly


Dangerous? Yep. Count the number of burps with ghetto setups on this board. I've yet to see anyone I ride with using UST have an accident, I've seen several people go down, with damage to their bodies when using ghetto.

ghetto cheap and easy? BS. Just look at all the people on this forum complain about 
setting and sealing issues. The number of post is high, very high. Also, most peoples time is not free. Think of all the time wasted on ghetto setups.

UST is far easier. You mount the tire, pump it up BY HAND, and ride. At least be honest with people asking questions.

To the OP, did you search all the threads here? Do you notice anything?


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## dwt (Jul 19, 2009)

CrimsonFox said:


> I would suggest you buy a stem core remover, and a syringe to add sealant through the valve. It eliminates the need to break the seal to add more sealant, which reduces the change of making a mess, or tearing your liner trying to put the tire back on.


I second this no matter what system you use.

Main advantages: Lower tire pressure; no pinch flats. Riding at lower PSI will improve your riding experience IMMENSELY.

Main disadvantages: Heavier and more expensive (full UST); messy and potentially a pain to set up (conversions).

You've got at least 4 tubeless choices:

1) Full UST, tires and rims. Don't believe the zealots who claim this is the "only" way to go (hmmm; doesn't just apply to bike tires  ). It is a more foolproof way, but it is a more expensive and significantly heavier way. You don't "need" sealant; you may "want" sealant to protect against punctures.

2) UST tires, taped regular rims. This is a great method for anybody who doesn't want to blow a lot of cash out of the gate, but is not a big risk taker, does not have a compressor, and is not super patient. Tape over your spoke holes with a few layers of gorilla tape, add a valve cut from an old tire, mount a UST tire, add sealant, seat with a floor pump. No expensive rim strip necessary. Note: this is how all road tubeless conversions are done.

3) Stans system. Expensive but tried and true for a decade or so. With tape, rimstrip, sealant, you can mount virtually any tire to any rim (but check their site for specific compatibility issues). Compressor necessary with any regular tire.

4) Ghetto systems: cheap, but require patience, time, and compressor. 20" BMX tube, sealant all you need inside; do a search for bad tire/rim combos outside.


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## BMF136 (Jun 6, 2005)

I've been tubeless for about two years now and haven't had one flat. I have one bike set up with a Stans rim strip and another bike with a set of the Notubes rims, they both work great. Some prefer UST, others like Stans or ghetto setups. I prefer non UST because the tires are lighter. I've never had any problems with reliability using standard tires.


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## dwt (Jul 19, 2009)

chas_martel said:


> Not if you are using a UST setup. In fact a strict UST setup is easier to change tires than a tube setup as there is not tube to worry about.


Not exactly. I've yet to been able to mount any UST tire to any rim, whether UST or converted, without tire levers. The fit is designed to be tight, the carbon beads are way stronger and stiffer than kevlar (I never used wire beads with tubes, for weight).

Most of the time (there are tire/rim exceptions, of course), a foldable bead tube tire can be mounted by hand. With tubeless, every time you need two levers to pop the bead over the rim - and sometimes it can be a bit of a hassle.

After a lot of trial and error, I highly recommend these levers. Itty bitty levers aren't stiff or long enough; metal levers can damage rims. This set has one long and one short; they are stiff enough not to bend or break, but are plastic so as to not score rims. I keep on pair in my shop, and one in my camelbak.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

chas_martel said:


> ghetto cheap and easy? BS. Just look at all the people on this forum complain about
> setting and sealing issues. The number of post is high, very high.


Sounds like you have a bone to pick, fine by me. I've run tubeless for close to 10 years. Started with UST, the weight of the tires and rims, sucks. Run Stans for as long as it's been available, and will never go back.

Worth noting though, you should count the number of folks who come on here, and ask the most innane questions about every single thing, then assume at least a quarter of them, will try ghetto tubeless at some point, not possessing the ability to think their way out of a cardboard box, then come on here, grousing loudly, and blaming it on the system. One finger pointing at the problem, is three pointing at the blaming party.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

dwt said:


> Not exactly. I've yet to been able to mount any UST tire to any rim, whether UST or converted, without tire levers.


I'll go on record to say this has not been my experience.
I've run full UST set-ups with Mavic 819 and 823 rims and UST tires from Kenda and Specialized, 2.2 to 2.4 and never use levers to mount. Make sure the beads are in the well of the rim, and slowly push/roll the last little bit of bead over the rim with your thumbs.
Never had any problems with the full UST set-up in the 5 years I've used it.

This season I'm trying Stan's Flow rims with the yellow tape, and tubeless-ready Specialized tires - where the bead is designed to run tubeless, but there is no innerliner, so you need to run some sealant, to air-seal the tire carcass (I use Stan's.)
So far this system has been great for me. I've only got about 100 trail miles in so far though.
The tires mounted up fairly easy, and were not loose on the rim at all. They aired up from zero PSI stupid easy with just a hand pump for me. WAY easier than the full UST system. I was able to mount all the UST tires with a hand pump, but it was much harder, and one I almost gave in and used a compressor, but finally got it.

The main plus to running tubeless is lower rolling resistance, with no tube/tire-carcass friction, rolling through the contact patch. The side benefits are flat prevention with running a sealant, and the ability to run a lower pressure - not stupid low, but maybe a few PSI lower than you normally would.

I'm not too fond of the "ghetto" systems - too many variables. It may work great with some rim/tires, or it may not work at all. Remember, a normal rim and tire is designed with the idea that a tube will be used, and it provides a bit of support to hold the bead in place. UST, and Tubeless-ready rims and tires are designed to have a bit more mechanical "grip" at the bead, right from the get-go, without the aid of a tube.

I really like the UST system, and the Tubeless-ready systems (where the rim bead, and tire bead are designed to run tubeless) and don't see any real drawbacks to them :thumbsup:


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

dwt said:


> I second this no matter what system you use.
> 
> Main advantages: Lower tire pressure; no pinch flats. Riding at lower PSI will improve your riding experience IMMENSELY.
> 
> ...


Where do "tubeless ready" tires, like Bontrager, fit into this?


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## dwt (Jul 19, 2009)

deoreo said:


> I really like the UST system, and the Tubeless-ready systems (where the rim bead, and tire bead are designed to run tubeless) and don't see any real drawbacks to them :thumbsup:


I do too, but I guess I need practice in the mounting dept. 

In a pinch, I still recommend those Topeak levers, though.


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## Flyguy1 (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm running a ghetto tubeless setup. I really like the fact that at the bead there is a cushion of rubber from the tube. I'm running azonic outlaw wheels with one ust tire and one standard tire. The UST tire has worked flawlessly. It sealed right away and I never have to put air in it. The non-UST tire requires air once in a while and had some pinhole leaks in the sidewall.


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> Where do "tubeless ready" tires, like Bontrager, fit into this?


"Tubeless Ready" and "2Bliss" have UST beads, but they have porous sidewalls, so sealant is required.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

I have more trouble using tire levers than not on bicycles.

Just learn the trick of making sure the far side of the tire is in the rim valley
as you work yourself around the tire/tube. Works every time, no levers required.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Mr Pink57 said:


> As far as I know *there are no UST rims/tires in a 29er option* or a 650b I suppose. So that doesnt leave many options for the other riders (like myself).
> 
> Add Con
> If you have a flexy sidewall you'll notice it way more
> ...


There aren't many, but they do exist. Hutchinson makes at least one, maybe two UST 29er tires, and Mavic and Easton both have UST rims(wheels) for 29ers. TLR/2Bliss/Tubeless Ready comes really close, as far as I know. I seem to remember reading something about companies having to pay money to sell UST?


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## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Pinch flats do happen with tubeless setups. I know.
Even at higher PSI's. 

From what I have read. Using a 20" BMX tube as a rimstrip is really resistant to burping.
I have heard more complaints about UST burping than 20" tube ghetto.

Tubeless is a great benefit in thorny areas.
2bliss tires can and will tear on the sidewalls. 

Always bring at least 1 tube and some kind of tire repair patch.

Putting a tube in a flat tire with 2oz of sealant is a mess and a PITA.


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## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

How does Stan's sealant work with those 'cold-vulcanizing' patches? I've got a tire with a cut in the sidewall (approx. 1/2 inch long) which has been sewed up and then secured with a couple of such patches from the inner side. This works perfectly with an inner tube, but I'm wondering whether the sealant is likely to make this combination fall apart.
Well probably I shouldn't use this tire tubeless anyway, but let's say I'm just curious


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Pros

Better traction, better feel, fewer flats

Cons

People try to be cheap and seal their tires with milk and glitter, then whine on the forums about how tubeless sucks.


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## julioardz (May 29, 2008)

I have setup 2 tubeless wheelsets. One is UST rims (Mavic) with UST tires (Maxxis). The tires were very easy to mount and inflate with a floor pump. I had to use very little soapy water, that's it. I use sealant in them and having the syringe and a stem core remover makes it quick, easy, and clean to add more sealant. It is the easiest, most trouble free wheel and tire combination I have ever had. No flats or burps in over a year. At first I would loose some air overnight but that stopped in time. No I will loose air from thorns but the sealant takes care of that. Like I said, I have never had a flat on these. 

The other set up is Arch rims with Stan's yellow rim strip and valve and Bontrager tires (tubeless ready I believe). It was much more difficult to get the bead in the rim. I used a lot of very soapy water and had to eventually use a tire lever. I also had to use a compressor to seat properly and inflate. I have yet to ride these wheels, so there's little else I can share about them.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

wormvine said:


> Pinch flats do happen with tubeless setups. I know.
> Even at higher PSI's.
> 
> From what I have read. Using a 20" BMX tube as a rimstrip is really resistant to burping.
> ...


How do you pinch flat a tubeless tire? A pinch flat happens when the tube goes under the bead of the tire resulting in the bead pinching the tube against the rim. Without a tube how you pinch flat? Do you mean burp?


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## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

When you add more sealant, don't you need to get rid of the old, dried up stuff? Or will your tire eventually be filled with latex boogers?


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

GuruAtma said:


> When you add more sealant, don't you need to get rid of the old, dried up stuff? Or will your tire eventually be filled with latex boogers?


depends on how you top off the sealant, If you open the bead then you can pick out the boogers and top off. If you dont open the tire , you just add more
an easy way to check is to get a spoke and insert in tnto the stem (without the core in and the sten @ 6 o'clock) if the threads are covered you' re good , if not add more


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

GuruAtma said:


> When you add more sealant, don't you need to get rid of the old, dried up stuff? Or will your tire eventually be filled with latex boogers?


I would think that at the very least, you would continue to add weight to the tire, even if the boogers causes no other problems.


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

since this thread has been re opened I thought I'd add a couple of updates

there are currently no 29" UST tires, there may be some old stock still available but no one is making UST 29 tires

there are 3 types of tubeless
UST - airtight tires and rims, special locking bead
TLR, 2Bliss, TNT, tubeless ready, etc - locking bead similar to UST, requires sealant
Ghetto - anything else, usually inner tube, sealant , regular tires and rims

seems like most people use sealant even with UST for puncture protection. So why not just go TLR? 
UST tires have an extra airtight layer and are usually the heaviest , but the extra layer also adds strength to the sidewalls ( the weak spot in TLR in my opinion)

ghetto has so many variations that its impossible to say if its good or not. If you have the right setup, its great, if not...

the bottom line is
if you want a tubeless setup, with no hassles, no compatibility issues and/ or no sealant get UST
If you ride 29", or want a lighter setup and don't mind sealant go TLR ( a really nice setup is UST rim and TLR tires)
If you like to experiment go ghetto


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

dan0 said:


> since this thread has been re opened I thought I'd add a couple of updates
> 
> there are currently no 29" UST tires, there may be some old stock still available but no one is making UST 29 tires
> 
> ...


I almost agree, except that the UST option does not seem hassle free and does not seem to be a good option to me. Without sealant, you have no puncture protection from thorns and end up with a tube in an already heavy UST tire, the worst option of all.


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> I almost agree, except that the UST option does not seem hassle free and does not seem to be a good option to me. Without sealant, you have no puncture protection from thorns and end up with a tube in an already heavy UST tire, the worst option of all.


as far as TUBELESS options UST is the most Hassle free

you can use sealant in ANY tire, so thats is a non issue. and most people use sealant in UST setups.


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## shapirus (Jun 28, 2009)

sorry to bug you guys... i'm still here with my question: how does stan's sealant live with glued&cold-vulcanized tire patches?
i can't believe that nobody ran such a combination.


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## dan0 (Oct 12, 2005)

shapirus said:


> How does Stan's sealant work with those 'cold-vulcanizing' patches? I've got a tire with a cut in the sidewall (approx. 1/2 inch long) which has been sewed up and then secured with a couple of such patches from the inner side. This works perfectly with an inner tube, but I'm wondering whether the sealant is likely to make this combination fall apart.
> Well probably I shouldn't use this tire tubeless anyway, but let's say I'm just curious


I have a Geax saguaro that got a large (pencil sized ) hole in the tread area, I used the hutchinson tubeless patch kit & stans, no issues yet (2 weeks) 
It seems like super glue and a regular type tire patch


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

shapirus said:


> sorry to bug you guys... i'm still here with my question: how does stan's sealant live with glued&cold-vulcanized tire patches?
> i can't believe that nobody ran such a combination.


I've been running tubeless since 2001......I ride about 3X a week approx. 8-10 miles per ride.......in that whole time I've only ripped up one side-wall and basically threw the tire in the trash can.........I have never had to patch a tire because the Stan's sealant works that well......

I ride hard and aggressively and have taken the bike to Sedona, Bootleg Canyon,NV, Mammoth Mountain (CA) and the desert around Palm Springs i've run over sharp rocks, Cholla Cactus, mesquite shrubs, etc.

I run a 2.40 Kenda Cortez tire up front (non-UST) and a 2.10 UST Kenda Nevegal in the rear.....I have a 5 in. travel AM full suspension bike.....

I keep my pressure at 30 psi in both tires....I stick to this religiously (I check my pressures before each ride)


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> I almost agree, except that the UST option does not seem hassle free and does not seem to be a good option to me. Without sealant, you have no puncture protection from thorns and end up with a tube in an already heavy UST tire, the worst option of all.


The biggest hassle about running UST is when you have to wait around for all your non-tubeless buddies while they fix their flat tires.....


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## Twenty Times (Mar 27, 2009)

*Pros*
Fewer/ nearly no flats
Capable of riding lower pressure
Lighter

*Cons*
Need to clean and replace every 6 months to prevent rim corrosion
Trail flats, although VERY rare are a messy fix (I caught a shark that ripped my valve in half - the only flat I had since going tubeless... 5 before that.
Burps

All in all, I say go tubeless. Whether you chose ghetto, Stan's or otherwise, it is worth it. I am more then happy with my set up. The pro's out weight the cons greatly. I had a lot of ride ruined because I had to pull over and change a flat.


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## Bird (Mar 26, 2004)

*Facts only!*

Fact:
I haven't experienced a flat since going tubeless "UST with sealant" 2 years ago.

Fact:
I experienced a flat almost weekly with tubes.

Fact:
I have better traction and ride quality with tubeless set-up.

Fact:
UST tires are harder to get on and off,i rotate mine.

Fact:
I have to add air before every ride with Tubeless.

Opinion:
Tubeless is superior to tubes.


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## dwt (Jul 19, 2009)

osmarandsara said:


> I've been running tubeless since 2001......I ride about 3X a week approx. 8-10 miles per ride.......in that whole time I've only ripped up one side-wall and basically threw the tire in the trash can.........I have never had to patch a tire because the Stan's sealant works that well.


I'd say your damn lucky. IME, Stans is good for 3 things: sealing beads, making non UST tires airtight, and sealing pinprick size holes like thorns. Anything bigger, it squirts out like a sieve. Which is one reason why people add stuff to it, like auto sealants with particles of various materials, or make up their own homebrews with latex, glitter, mica or what have you, in order to clog up bigger size punctures. Another trailside fix for small holes that won't seal is good old superglue. I never ride without it in my pack.

But as you say, for disasters like ripping a sidewall, you're SOL with any sealant, whether pure liquid Stans, chunkified auto sealant, or any homebrew you can think up. For that, your tire is history for tubeless, and hopefully you packed a tire boot, a tube, and a pump to get you rolling. It has happened to me twice in the past 2 years, once on the trails and once on my road bike, and I had to dump the sealant, remove the valve, and tube up.

Yes, big cuts and holes are few and far between, and there are no pinchflats with tubeless, but not carrying tubes, pump, boots and superglue as precautions can end up stranding you if you're not so lucky.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I have UST wheels but didn't get UST tires because the tires I had worked fine. Too old for a conversion, but the tread was still good.

On the next batch of tires, I still opted for regular tires (UST version was twice the cost of the sale price I got at a LBS grand opening sale), but I decided to try tubeless to see if I'd like the change in ride quality. I used a homebrew sealant to see how I'd like tubeless, and my experience has been very good. IMO, full UST tires will be worth the cost for my next purchase now to improve the system (mostly for allowing inflation with a standard pump).


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## osmarandsara (Jun 26, 2006)

dwt said:


> I'd say your damn lucky. IME, Stans is good for 3 things: sealing beads, making non UST tires airtight, and sealing pinprick size holes like thorns. Anything bigger, it squirts out like a sieve. Which is one reason why people add stuff to it, like auto sealants with particles of various materials, or make up their own homebrews with latex, glitter, mica or what have you, in order to clog up bigger size punctures. Another trailside fix for small holes that won't seal is good old superglue. I never ride without it in my pack.
> .


Now that I think of it......I've actually had two ripped sidewalls in 9 years......but I didn't count the second one because it happened as a result of a booby trap someone setup (they buried a piece of rebar w/about two inches sticking out and covered it with leaves)

the rebar penetrated through the tread and came out at an angle trough the sidewall....tire went flat instantly and it also but a big ding in my rim....


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