# Any advantages of steel frame over aluminum in SS?



## procos (Jan 7, 2006)

Sorry if this has been gone over before but I did a search and didn't come up with anything. I am new to the SS bike category and am thinking of building one from the ground up. I currently own a Ventana El Padrino 29er HT and a Ventana El Bastardo 650B FS bike. I really love the Ventana bikes so I am naturally considering the El Comandante which is their SS 29er frame set. Like I said I am new to the SS world so was wondering is there any benefits to going steel frame over aluminum when building a SS bike? 

Thanks,

Chuck


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

Having ridden a few SS steel bikes and every aluminum hardtail since SS I've come to the conclusion that if you spend a lot of time out of the saddle, the biggest difference is the 1-2lbs difference in frame weight. That's a HUGE difference. Most off the shelf steel frames are ~5.5+lbs, and most off of the shelf aluminum frames are ~4lbs.

Aluminum singlespeeds aren't too common. I actually just ordered a 2012 One9. I was also considering the On-One Scandal. FWIW, the XL One9 weighed 3.7lbs, the XL Scandal frame weighed 4.0lbs with sliders.

So the real advantage on choosing a steel frame is selection:
Kona Unit, Canfield Nimble 9, Niner SIR, Soul Cycles, Ritchey P29, On-One Inbred and the soon to be on Clearance Vassago Jabberwocky

I'm currently riding a Yelli Screamy with a Niner carbon fork and a Philcentric EBB. I LOVED the feel of the bike with a 120mm fork on it (so I'll be putting the 120mm fork back on as soon as the one9 gets here). If you're planning on running a suspension fork up front, the Nimble 9 (same geometry as the Yelli Screamy) is a pretty cool bike.


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## theycallmeE (Aug 21, 2007)

OneBadWagon said:


> Having ridden a few SS steel bikes and every aluminum hardtail since SS I've come to the conclusion that if you spend a lot of time out of the saddle, the biggest difference is the 1-2lbs difference in frame weight. That's a HUGE difference. Most off the shelf steel frames are ~5.5+lbs, and most off of the shelf aluminum frames are ~4lbs.
> 
> Aluminum singlespeeds aren't too common. I actually just ordered a 2012 One9. I was also considering the On-One Scandal. FWIW, the XL One9 weighed 3.7lbs, the XL Scandal frame weighed 4.0lbs with sliders.
> 
> ...


With respect, OneBadWagon, the real advantage is feel. A good steel frame has a lively, springy feel, whereas an aluminum frame is generally a harsher ride. The OP didn't say he could only afford an "off the shelf" bike and while it may be the case that comparably priced steel frames are heavier than aluminum ones (not even sure about this, but that's beside the point), there's a lot more to a great riding bike that scale weight.

Having ridden a singlespeed for years and being around a lot of other people who do too, I can tell you that steel was universally preferred to aluminum (I made the mistake of buying my first singlespeed in aluminum too, so I've ridden both).

You also left a few off your list, like Spot, Voodoo, Surley - all bikes that will give you that great steel ride feel.

Procos, you may feel differently if you test a few out (and I suggest you do), but I'd NEVER buy an aluminum frame over a quality steel one. My 2 cents,

E


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

theycallmeE said:


> With respect, OneBadWagon, the real advantage is feel. A good steel frame has a lively, springy feel, whereas an aluminum frame is generally a harsher ride. The OP didn't say he could only afford an "off the shelf" bike and while it may be the case that comparably priced steel frames are heavier than aluminum ones (not even sure about this, but that's beside the point), there's a lot more to a great riding bike that scale weight.
> 
> Having ridden a singlespeed for years and being around a lot of other people who do too, I can tell you that steel was universally preferred to aluminum (I made the mistake of buying my first singlespeed in aluminum too, so I've ridden both).
> 
> ...


The beauty of steel really doesn't come alive until a good framebuilder designs one for you, IMO. Take the Niner Sir 9 for example. Every 200lber that I know who rides one describes them as a noodle, but at 150lbs I'm sure it is springy and resilient. Those characteristics are completely personal. I just find the "steel is real" mindset laughable, when people are considering frames that are probably made of fence post. (On-One Inbred, BikesDirect, etc.) 
A frame is not made or broken solely based on its material. The tubing diameter, thickness, tube lengths, the way that it's welded, etc. I've ridden stiff frames that were aluminum and steel, and also overly compliant ones in both materials also.

He did mention an off the shelf bike, in the Commandante. If he was talking custom, then your options are endless, and you can get a bike tailored to your wants/needs. That changes the game completely. (And I keep staring at my bank account and then browsing Walt's website. One of these days I'll pull the trigger. )

I left a ton of brands off of that list. When you're looking at steel SS frames, you've got a LOT of choices.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I have the El Comandante. It rides like a good steel bike IMO. I don't have to touch the tensioning system. I wanted a good off the shelf steel frame. I ruled one after another out either because the tensioning system wasn't fool proof or it might be too flexy. The Ventana is not a weight weeny frame but it is not as heavy as comparable steel frames.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Steel has many advantages over aluminum. Please feel free to add to my list:

1. You can grow an ironic mustache
2. You can sport a brown seat. Extra points for a 1000gm, $200 Brooks saddle.
3. Rigid riding and vegan (even though Brooks saddles are leather, they are still "the best saddle you've ever ridden")
4. If you drive to the trails, you can have a bumper sticker on your Forester that reads "One Less Singlespeed"
5. Wool.
6. San Francisco and Portland will accept you
7. Dubstep
8. You can say "Steel is Real" and act like it's ironic, but you're actually being truthful
9. Underground coffee houses
10. Poetry, Koi fish tattoos and deviant art.

This all comes with riding steel.

With aluminum, it's hard to get into the "Zen" state of mind when riding. Western cultures are into aluminum, whereas Eastern cultures are into steel. We have so much to learn from holistic, non-western cultures.


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## CuzinMike (Jul 6, 2010)

Dion said:


> 1. You can grow an ironic mustache


Aha! I ride an aluminum singlespeed. This explains why my mustache always seems to lack irony.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

see my sig.


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## pulsepro (Sep 13, 2007)

Dion said:


> Steel has many advantages over aluminum. Please feel free to add to my list:
> 
> 1. You can grow an ironic mustache
> 2. You can sport a brown seat. Extra points for a 1000gm, $200 Brooks saddle.
> ...


This is so fantastic! Not much left to add to this comprehensive list. I'd say you should buy the frame that fits you best and has the geometry you like best, regardless of material.


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## jeffgothro (Mar 10, 2007)

Dion said:


> Steel has many advantages over aluminum. Please feel free to add to my list:
> 
> 1. You can grow an ironic mustache
> 2. You can sport a brown seat. Extra points for a 1000gm, $200 Brooks saddle.
> ...


 oh, damn...snap!!!


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

Dion said:


> Steel has many advantages over aluminum. Please feel free to add to my list:
> 
> 1. You can grow an ironic mustache
> 2. You can sport a brown seat. Extra points for a 1000gm, $200 Brooks saddle.
> ...


I just repped you. not for this good post but for the Eddy Fiola and Martin Aparijo video you posted! :thumbsup:


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## wvjeeper (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm a Clydesdale (little over 200) and I ride a cheap steel SS and absolutely love my steel bike. I swear that it is more comfortable than my aluminum bike with front suspension. 
Also I don't have an iconic stash or a Suby but I do think steel is real!
My suggestion would be to buy a cheaper steal SS and ride the wheels off of it.


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## Lonecrow (Jun 20, 2011)

Just seems steel and ss goes well together,
aluminum I think not that is like water
and cereal together


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

Lonecrow said:


> Just seems steel and ss goes well together,
> aluminum I think not that is like water
> and cereal together


From a "Zen" perspective, I agree. From a spending money on a frame perspective, I don't buy it. Steel / rigid go together really well, and SS / rigid do too, but I'd gladly take a 3.5-4lb aluminum frame over a 5.5-6lb steel frame for the same money.

Double the money and have one of the wizards work their magic and build you a 4.5-5lb steel frame that suits your fancy, and you've got something special.


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## zaskaranddriver (Oct 14, 2009)

My aluminum frame became compliant, springy, and zenlike when I lowered my tire pressure.


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## procos (Jan 7, 2006)

OneBadWagon said:


> Double the money and have one of the wizards work their magic and build you a 4.5-5lb steel frame that suits your fancy, and you've got something special.


Who do you consider one of the "Wizards" in the steel frame building business? I have money to spend. You guys like Quiring?

Thanks,

Chuck


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

procos said:


> Who do you consider one of the "Wizards" in the steel frame building business? I have money to spend. You guys like Quiring?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chuck


I personally *really* like Waltworks and By:stickel's builds. I'm a tall guy and like to ride bikes that are as short as I can get away with, and the attention to the small details and the willingness to listen to the customer and work through the details definitely appear to be there.

I'm sure that the majority of the custom guys out there can build you a killer frame, but there are definitely guys who like their geometry a certain way. Check out other people's builds and you'll probably spot someone's bikes that strike a chord with you.

I've heard nothing but good things about Quiring, and the fact that he was in the 29er game early and definitely makes some good looking bikes says a lot.

*disclaimer* I do not currently own, and have not commissioned a custom bike.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

One question: Do you think a samurai would choose aluminum for his sword material? 

Answer: No.


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## wvjeeper (Oct 3, 2008)

In all honesty aluminum is more rigid because it has to be built that way because it has no memory and will break. This is why steel frames are always smaller diameter tubing because the metal can flex and not break.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

Steel is like butter compared to Alu. Alu is a teeth chattering metal... you can't even chew aluminum foil wrappers... Steel is supple. Aluminum isn't. 
If I were to get an aluminum frame, you will see a suspension fork and seatpost on it. Then I will ride into the sunset laughing.


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## CB2 (May 7, 2006)

Magnets stick to steel.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

ernesto_from_Wisconsin said:


> Steel is like butter compared to Alu. Alu is a teeth chattering metal... you can't even chew aluminum foil wrappers... Steel is supple. Aluminum isn't.
> If I were to get an aluminum frame, you will see a suspension fork and seatpost on it. Then I will ride into the sunset laughing.


Look at that, it's the same old line followed with no evidence to support it.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Without joking around, I've ridden both steel and aluminum SS frames, 26" and 29" - I even built up a titanium SS. All rigid. Ridden on the same trails. 

Did one have an advantage? Not really. They all weighed +/- 1-2 lbs. of each other (except my Ti bike), they all rolled about the same, they all were sweet on certain trails and jarring on others. I guess, maybe, the wheel size made a difference - but we're talking about frames here.

Frame alone won't dictate the ride quality - wheels, tires and fit all come into play. And then there's also geometry - I'm sure an aluminum frame with XC geometry would kill climbs better than my do-it-all geometry On-One Inbred. Conversely, an all-mountain geometry would be awesome for when things pointed downhill - moreso than the XC geometry. 

I bet that any aluminum frame with a front suspension fork is more compliant that my steel rigid bike. Steel does flex - but does that give me an advantage? No, slimming my gut down and not being such a cheapskate on parts would be a bigger advantage.

The only thing I can see be the determining factor is look. I have a personal preference for the skinny steel tubing - but that's just me.

Get either frame set. In my opinion, unless you go with a hi-tensile Walmart bike, it's hard to buy anything "bad" these days. At this point, flipping a coin would give you the better bike of the two.


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## jeffgothro (Mar 10, 2007)

Why choose steel over aluminum, because they write cool songs about steel.


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## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

Dion said:


> One question: Do you think a samurai would choose aluminum for his sword material?
> 
> Answer: No.


Answer: The samurai would choose titanium for his sword

:winker:


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> Answer: The samurai would choose titanium for his sword
> 
> :winker:


Yeahbutstill.


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## Tyrone Shoelaces (Nov 6, 2006)

Dion said:


> Yeahbutstill.


just joking. Looks like the samarai would choose this stuff: Tamahagane (or "jewel steel"). Wonder what a frame made out of this would ride like? 

Japanese swordsmithing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Pudmunkie (Mar 11, 2012)

I love my voodoo bokor, alu. Rigid single speed. Within the 2.1+ tires its more than compliant.... though my background came from thrashing bmx bikes, so I'm not sure what people think compliant should be.


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

Tyrone Shoelaces said:


> just joking. Looks like the samarai would choose this stuff: Tamahagane (or "jewel steel"). Wonder what a frame made out of this would ride like?
> 
> Japanese swordsmithing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Or one made of Hattori Hanzo steel?

"I am finished doing what I swore an oath to God 28 years ago to never do again. I've created, 'something that kills Al & Ti frame riders.' And in that purpose, I was a success. I've done this because, philosophically, I am sympathetic to your aim. I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest frame. If on your journey, you should encounter God, God will be dropped."


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## Ant-Eater (Aug 25, 2011)

You should always have plenty of iron in your diet.

My very limited experience (sample size of 1) is that I've seen all frame materials fail but aluminum, when it fails, tends to fail catastrophically, all at once. I've seen several aluminum frames shear into two pieces in races over the years. 

I rode a litespeed for some undetermined time before discovering that the down tube had cracked and severed all the way around - I could still ride that bike. Same thing with steel although I wouldn't put as much faith in that one tube.

That said, I've owned more aluminum frames than steel and I think tire pressure makes more of a difference than the frame material. If I were going to get one frame that I intended to keep for decades, it would be steel. As for single-speed specific issues, I don't believe there are any relative to the material.


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## BBoy (Nov 2, 2009)

Me: 
Race - Alu SS (purely due to the weight reduction, comfort is the last thing on my mind during race)
All other rides - Steel SS (they feel good and can really take a beating)


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Dion said:


> I have a personal preference for the skinny steel tubing - but that's just me.


It's not just you.


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## lwebber60 (Aug 13, 2008)

Riding aluminum is like being b*tch slapped by some 2-bit hooker 

Riding steel is like being softly caressed by a high dollar hooker 

Not that I have experience with hookers....


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## zaskaranddriver (Oct 14, 2009)

Steel fails catastrophically too, yo.


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## TeeKay (May 27, 2005)

zaskaranddriver said:


> Steel fails catastrophically too, yo.


That's aluminum.


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## zaskaranddriver (Oct 14, 2009)

Oops.


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## GChambers (Jan 7, 2010)

zaskaranddriver said:


> My aluminum frame became compliant, springy, and zenlike when I lowered my tire pressure.


This. And when I put a Reba on it, it was, dare I say it... Plush.

The Carbon bars and seat post probably help out a bit also.


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

My next rigid SS will be aluminium with a niner carbon fork and some sort of carbon seat post. The last two were steel, Unit and El Mariachi. Both are too flexy in the bottom bracket area. That's where I need the stiffness of aluminium. Puttin' the power down.

My iron levels in my blood are too high anyway.


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## ATBScott (Jun 4, 2006)

Steel or aluminum can both be built to make a great frame - depending on your needs or preferences... For AL to be strong enough to hold up well over time, it will need to be built very rigid so that it doesn't flex too much, work harden and weaken quickly. Some of the harshness of this frame can be overcome with bigger volume tires that can be run at lower pressures, more flexible bars/seatposts, etc... That will help take the edge off of smaller bumps and potholes, but not as much bigger hits.

Steel, while it can be built to be just as stiff as an Aluminum frame, generally has a bit more flex and "spring". If Aluminum made a good spring, they would use it in automobile suspensions, as it is lighter (by volume) and less expensive. Aluminum doesn't flex and return very well - not a good spring material. A bike frame is nothing more than a spring that has the associated fixing points to put cranks, wheels, etc... onto it. If light and stiff is the main parameter, then AL is fine. If some compliance and long-term reliability is part of the equation, then steel is the best bang for the buck. Ti can exceed the spec of steel at a lighter weight, but your wallet gets lighter too. So - pick your requirement and go from there - and hopefully, whatever you choose, it works well for you and lasts long enough to make you feel you made a good choice!


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## zaskaranddriver (Oct 14, 2009)

ATBScott said:


> A bike frame is nothing more than a spring


Um...no.


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## ATBScott (Jun 4, 2006)

zaskaranddriver said:


> Um...no.


Actually, it is... Unless of course, you build something so stiff it has no flex at all, then it is simply a platform. Full suspension bikes are not springs, but they are platforms that have springs attached to them, whether air or some other "springy" device, that perform that function.


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## GChambers (Jan 7, 2010)

ATBScott said:


> Actually, it is... Unless of course, you build something so stiff it has no flex at all, then it is simply a platform. Full suspension bikes are not springs, but they are platforms that have springs attached to them, whether air or some other "springy" device, that perform that function.


I feel more comfortable with "A bike frame has some "spring" built into it". It isn't in itself a spring. That's just wrong to say.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

zaskaranddriver said:


> Steel fails catastrophically too, yo.


It looks like the link you sent was for a KHS solo one frame that cracked in top tube and down tube. It seems this is a 6061 aluminum frame.

Really any frame material can fail if given enough stress. Steel tends to provide somewhat more warning at the failure point but in truth most aluminum and carbon frames tend to be very safe as well.

For me the choice of steel is simple because it is a great material to work with and provides a very nice ride. A typical high quality steel 29er frame in the range of 3.8 to 4.2 pounds. Most aluminum frames are around the same weight. Some aluminum frames are lighter but usually even the light ones are 3.2 pounds or more. At the end of the day the choice of frame material is less then one pound for net difference.

For me the weight difference is not that big of a deal.

Steel is great to work with and often puts custom geometry in reach at a price that is reasonable for most people. The idea that three or four bike frame sizes will fit everyone does not make a lot of sense. With a steel frame you can get custom fit for a reasonable price. Steel also tends to ride with a bit more of a springy feel that provides better comfort for long rides.

There are pro/cons to all frame materials so really there is no wrong choice. It mostly comes down to style. Consider your fitness level and decide what bike you would like to ride when you get dropped by the fast guys. Personally I always sorta laugh when guys show up on super light carbon fiber bikes geared and then get dropped in the first twenty minutes of a ride. Somewhat the joy of single speed riding is to show that it's about the legs rather then the wallet.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

febikes said:


> A typical high quality steel 29er frame in the range of 3.8 to 4.2 pounds. Most aluminum frames are around the same weight. Some aluminum frames are lighter but usually even the light ones are 3.2 pounds or more. At the end of the day the choice of frame material is less then one pound for net difference.


Would you mind linking some off the rack frames that are Sub 4.2lbs?

Even the Niner MCR, which is a geared frame that costs $800 is 4.5+. Vassago, Monocog Flight, Nimble 9, etc are all 5.5+


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## Phishin Paul (Jan 1, 2005)

OP, I too am a 2 FS Ventana owner and debated the same when choosing my SS. Give Sherwood a call and he probably could do something for you in steel custom. It may come with a big price but not sure.

I ended up with a Siren John Henry and couldn't be happier. I am a true beliver in steel for SS expecially one built by Brendan at Siren. Good luck.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

OneBadWagon said:


> Would you mind linking some off the rack frames that are Sub 4.2lbs?
> 
> Even the Niner MCR, which is a geared frame that costs $800 is 4.5+. Vassago, Monocog Flight, Nimble 9, etc are all 5.5+


Not all steel is created equal. Higher quality tube sets allow for a fairly light frame that is still very strong.

You will need to call around to various builders for a light frame. Many reasonably priced butted tube sets will result in frames under 5 pounds. Building a steel frame at 4.5 pounds is not all that hard. In a small size with some light weight tubing a 4.2 frame is reasonable.

My wife's frame is 4.0 but she is tiny and it is a 26er.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

The OP asked about a production bike, so im talking about production frames.


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## procos (Jan 7, 2006)

I never specifically asked about production bikes where do you see that in my question? Not sure where you got that idea. I am considering Quiring and would love to hear about other custom builders.


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## procos (Jan 7, 2006)

OneBadWagon said:


> The OP asked about a production bike, so im talking about production frames.


I never specifically asked about production bikes where do you see that in my question? Not sure where you got that idea. I am considering Quiring and would love to hear about other custom builders.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

procos said:


> I never specifically asked about production bikes where do you see that in my question? Not sure where you got that idea. I am considering Quiring and would love to hear about other custom builders.


Sorry. I should have said that you mentioned a production bike in your post. If you're looking at custom bikes, steel bikes get very attractive.



procos said:


> I really love the Ventana bikes so I am naturally considering the El Comandante which is their SS 29er frame set.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

Bamboo or carbon?


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## rumblytumbly (Jun 5, 2013)

I choose aluminum because I like a super stiff bottom bracket (with carbon seatpost and bar and fork because they make a much bigger difference in ride). When I'm around my hipster friends, I just get a British accent going and pronounce it al-you-min-eee-yum. That always works.


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## jackspade (Jul 23, 2010)

I can't really tell the different while riding, but as for geometry it does makes different feels. 

Weight different only matter when I lift or push the bike, aluminum is easier since it's lighter.

Stiffness might consider as a factor although I think it's the weight that actually matters for rough terrain riding, if it's heavy it's more comfortable since it doesn't bounce too much and vice versa if it's lighter and I try this with both light and weight steel/aluminum frames. The light steel frame is panasonic team and it's feels the same bounce with some light weight bike.


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