# Tent and Sleeping bag questions



## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

I got invited to go on a first annual bike packing ride in march in Missouri sponsored by my LBS. I don't own a tent or a sleeping bag. March in the Midwest could produce a variety of weather. I want to get a sleeping bag rated for winter Temps but can't decide what comfort rating to buy. I would prefer one all around bag that I could use anytime of year so I don't need several bags around the house. Should I buy a bag rated to 0 degrees or lower or is that too extreme? If it was 35 degrees or hotter would I bake in this bag? Should I buy a bag rated to 20-30 degrees and if it's below zero out just wear extra warm clothes to bed? I doubt I will pack a mat as that would be just one more thing to carry so my bag will be on the tent floor. I am also looking at less than 100 dollars. Until I am doing this a lot I can't justify extra pricy equipment. What about a bag similar to this?
ALPS Mountaineering 0°F Echo Lake Sleeping Bag - Synthetic, Mummy - Save 44%

This is a tent I was looking at. Any opinions?
The North Face Stormbreak 2 Two-Person Tent | Bass Pro Shops: The Best Hunting, Fishing, Camping & Outdoor Gear


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Bag temp rating is based on you having a sleeping pad. Without one you should expect to be noticeable colder.


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## cgrutt (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't know anything about the ALPS bag but it seems like a great price for a 0 degree bag. Maybe too good to be true? It seems very heavy and bulky for a sleeping bag at 5+ lbs and only compresses to 11" X 18" (per link). Consideration if you will have it on your back or bike during your trip. Down is more expensive but likely to pack down smaller and lighter. Down is usually best in cold weather provided it stays dry. Otherwise synthetic is better option. Note that if you truly expect temps to get down to single digits you should have some sort of insulation between you and the ground. Personally, I've had a synthetic bag rated for 20 degrees for a long time and have used it down to about 10 degrees without any issues. However it is mostly used during summer months in Adirondacks with temps getting down to mid 50s to 60s. Might be better off with a bag rated for higher temps if you plan to use it outside coldest winter months.

As far as a tent, the Stormbreak 2 seems to be a three season tent and has plenty of ventilation. Great for Spring/Summer/Fall but not so good for deep winter esp. in single digits. You might want to consider a winter only tent for single digits. I have two North Face tents and they are both great but serve different purposes. A 2 person winter only and a 6 person three season. Main difference (other than size) is the amount of ventilation. I wouldn't camp in low to single digits in anything but a winter tent as it is designed to retain heat however expect a lot of condensation to build up inside. Both of my North Face tents are fairly heavy relative to other brands, which again, may be a consideration if you are packing it in on a bike.

Oh, a trick for winter camping is to throw a Nalgene bottle filled with boiling water in the bottom of you bag before you go to sleep. Will keep the bag toasty for a few hours.

Good luck!


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

cgrutt said:


> I don't know anything about the ALPS bag but it seems like a great price for a 0 degree bag. Maybe too good to be true? It seems very heavy and bulky for a sleeping bag at 5+ lbs and only compresses to 11" X 18" (per link). Consideration if you will have it on your back or bike during your trip. Down is more expensive but likely to pack down smaller and lighter. Down is usually best in cold weather provided it stays dry. Otherwise synthetic is better option. Note that if you truly expect temps to get down to single digits you should have some sort of insulation between you and the ground. Personally, I've had a synthetic bag rated for 20 degrees for a long time and have used it down to about 10 degrees without any issues. However it is mostly used during summer months in Adirondacks with temps getting down to mid 50s to 60s. Might be better off with a bag rated for higher temps if you plan to use it outside coldest winter months.
> 
> As far as a tent, the Stormbreak 2 seems to be a three season tent and has plenty of ventilation. Great for Spring/Summer/Fall but not so good for deep winter esp. in single digits. You might want to consider a winter only tent for single digits. I have two North Face tents and they are both great but serve different purposes. A 2 person winter only and a 6 person three season. Main difference (other than size) is the amount of ventilation. I wouldn't camp in low to single digits in anything but a winter tent as it is designed to retain heat however expect a lot of condensation to build up inside. Both of my North Face tents are fairly heavy relative to other brands, which again, may be a consideration if you are packing it in on a bike.
> 
> ...


I am really not sure if I would normally go camping in extreme weather. Honestly I haven't been camping since 1997. I just want a good sleeping bag that will work whether it is 10 degrees at night or 50. Everyone keeps referring to a pad between you and the ground and all I can envision is a foam mat. How heavy are these mats? I guess I was thinking a 1/2" thick dense foam mat which would weigh 10 lbs.


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## cgrutt (Dec 14, 2015)

You don't necessarily need a pad but you'll have more heat loss through the ground without one. Obviously more important during winter camping than other seasons. This is a simple foam pad designed for backpacking that weighs as little as 9 oz depending on size. Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest SOlite Sleeping Pad - REI.com There are other designs and some cost more than a good bag. I'd probably look for a lighter and smaller bag, maybe 20 degree or so and a good pair of thermal u/w if you want it mostly for all season use. Personal choice though and a lot depends on how well you tolerate the cold. All else equal, lighter is better if it will be on your back and/or bike. That all goes out the window if you'll be camping from your trunk 

Good luck!


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

cgrutt said:


> You don't necessarily need a pad but you'll have more heat loss through the ground without one. Obviously more important during winter camping than other seasons. This is a simple foam pad designed for backpacking that weighs as little as 9 oz depending on size. Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest SOlite Sleeping Pad - REI.com There are other designs and some cost more than a good bag. I'd probably look for a lighter and smaller bag, maybe 20 degree or so and a good pair of thermal u/w if you want it mostly for all season use. Personal choice though and a lot depends on how well you tolerate the cold. All else equal, lighter is better if it will be on your back and/or bike. That all goes out the window if you'll be camping from your trunk
> 
> Good luck!


I was wondering about a mummy bag vs a traditional rectangular bag as well?


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## cgrutt (Dec 14, 2015)

Mummy better for cold but more confining. Also generally smaller so better for backpack. Traditional more comfortable. We camp alot during the summer months and usually use a traditional bag on an air mattress. Just open it up and use it like a normal blanket. We camp in Lake George off our boat so size/weight really isn't an issue. When I camp with my son in the scouts I prefer a mummy bag. Again, all of this is personal preference.

Oh, our mummy bags are right and left side specific and can be zipped together to make a two person bag. Nice option if you'll be camping with your significant other...


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I'd opt for a 20-30 degree bag and wear the extra clothes.
A pad, as mentioned earlier, helps with heat loss and does provide padding.
Just remember, whatever you take will be on you or your bike, so weight and bulk do come into play. I'd recommend on going light and compact. It might cost more, but if you like it and continue to keep doing it, you'll be happy with the investment.


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

I agree with bakerjw. My set up is a 20 degree bag, if i am worried about it being darn right cold i have a silk insert sleeping bag liner. I live up north and its cold here. The liners are an extra cost, but i use them year around and are plenty worth it. If you arent sure how often you are going to camp, just ask around from family and friends to borrow equipment. Good excuse to buy the liner now too! Then if you enjoy it, spend the money on items of quality instead of having to replace down the road.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

iowamtb said:


> I got invited to go on a first annual bike packing ride in march in Missouri sponsored by my LBS. I don't own a tent or a sleeping bag. March in the Midwest could produce a variety of weather. I want to get a sleeping bag rated for winter Temps but can't decide what comfort rating to buy. I would prefer one all around bag that I could use anytime of year so I don't need several bags around the house. Should I buy a bag rated to 0 degrees or lower or is that too extreme? If it was 35 degrees or hotter would I bake in this bag? Should I buy a bag rated to 20-30 degrees and if it's below zero out just wear extra warm clothes to bed? I doubt I will pack a mat as that would be just one more thing to carry so my bag will be on the tent floor. I am also looking at less than 100 dollars. Until I am doing this a lot I can't justify extra pricy equipment. What about a bag similar to this?
> ALPS Mountaineering 0°F Echo Lake Sleeping Bag - Synthetic, Mummy - Save 44%
> 
> This is a tent I was looking at. Any opinions?
> The North Face Stormbreak 2 Two-Person Tent | Bass Pro Shops: The Best Hunting, Fishing, Camping & Outdoor Gear


I don't think those are your best options. The weight of that bag plus tent is over 11 pounds! That's more than some peoples entire load!

You may want to take a step back and answer some questions. Is this a one time thing? Or are you planning more trips if you like it? Would you use the gear for other things like Backpacking or car camping? Are you sharing the tent with someone?

Since this is your first trip, I would advise asking around to try to borrow as much gear as possible. If that doesn't work, look around for used stuff: Craigslist, Ebay, Geartrade, etc. It may take a while, but you can usually find quality gear for a fraction of the new cost. Also, keep an eye out for Sierra Trading Post coupons, especially on Facebook. The often have 25% to 35% off coupons, and sometimes 40% off, which will get you a much nicer/lighter bag within your budget. As mentioned, the lightest will be a down mummy bag. I would aim for something around 20 degrees. And definitely get a mat, even a cheap foam one, it will keep you warmer and much more comfortable. If you will be sleeping by yourself, get a one person tent or Bivy if you can live with one, it will be cheaper and lighter.

Something like this with a decent coupon will be under $100. It is a couple of pounds lighter and will pack down smaller as well, which is another consideration when bikepacking: Kelty 21Â°F Cosmic Down Sleeping Bag- 550 Fill Power, Mummy, Regular - Save 30%


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

I understand what you guys are saying about weight believe me lol. What I'd actually like to do is just take a light weight tarp and a sleeping bag and use my bike to support the tarp. It's just that I don't think I have any wind protection if it ends up being pretty cold. My friend who is organizing this said a lot of people bring hammocks. That sounds like a nice idea to but I can't imagine keeping warm on a cold night in a hammock. Plus depending on how many people go there could be a battle for good trees to string a hammock from. So I'm not sure in a group setting a hammock would be the best choice.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

If you buy multiple parts, you can mix and match for different temps. I don't think I'd want a 0 degree bag on a 50 degree night, but a 30 degree bag with a bag liner and an extra blanket might do the trick at 0 degrees, then just use the bag alone at 50 degrees, or the bag liner and the extra blanket.

I find under insulation (pad) essential for comfort as well as warmth. I sleep in a hammock, now, so my under insulation is a little different, but on the ground you have options from a cheap, foam pad to an inflatable pad. I don't know which does a better insulating job, but I've found inflatable pads to be a little more comfortable and to pack a little easier. Foam is plenty light, but bulky.

I've always been interested in the Big Agnes style of bag that only has insulation on the top, and the bottom has a slot for a pad/air mattress. I've heard good things, and it seems like a good way to keep your bag weight down, but I've never tried it. Sleeping in a hammock, I don't need the pad, and usually just open up my bag and use it like a blanket.

Here are the pieces of my set up:
Top insulation

Sleeping bag, either 30 degree or 50 degree
Poncho liner
Sleeping bag liner
Warm clothes including a hat and wool socks
I have space blanket, but it usually ends up as part of my under insulation. It's light enough and small enough that I should just carry two.

Top insulation

Open cell (soft, squishy) foam cell pad
space blanket
wind-breaker layer that hangs under the other parts
In a pinch, I've added a quilt to this set-up.

I mix and match pieces to match the outdoor temperature, but I don't think I've ever gone lower than the upper twenties. In really warm weather, the poncho liner and bag liner are all I need, and one or both of those pieces usually come along. The rest get added as the temps go down.

Sleeping on the ground, I preferred a rectangular bag, but I've found that it's bulkier and there's more space to warm up. Now my bags are just used as blankets anyway, so mummy bag works great because I can leave the last few inches zipped and keep my feet in there and use the rest as a blanket. It's not confining, but my feet stay warm. Using it as a blanket, it's easier to vent or adjust how well covered you are, too, so a 30 degree bag isn't going to be too warm in the 40s.


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## cgrutt (Dec 14, 2015)

Know a bunch of guys who swear by hammock and have done a lot of winter camping with them. They make quilts that go on the underside of the hammock that function similar to a pad for sleeping on the ground.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm a year-round backpacker, so am more comfortable giving suggestions about this stuff than I am mountain biking.
Random thoughts after reading:
-Yes, you absolutely do need a pad. An inflatable will be the least bulky, self-inflator will still pack compactly and cost less, CCF will be the cheapest by far and the lightest, but extremely bulky, especially for bikepacking. Suggest looking at ThermaRest self-inflators after establishing what temps you expect. I have an Exped Hyperlite inflatable now, but have been using a 3/4 length Thermarest ProLite small for several years for temps down to freezing. ProLite and Prolite Plus are good all-around pads, and the women's versions are warmer, though shorter. 
-10-50 is entirely doable with one bag/quilt, if you layer clothing on the low end of those temps. A bag that's comfortable by itself at 10 will be way too hot at 50, though, no matter how much you vent. 
I can't even zip up my bag that's EN-rated for 10F until it's about 22 degrees outside.
I've used a down hoody and grid fleece bottoms over midweight baselayers with a 30F quilt down to -2F, though(I do run exceptionally warm, so it's not for everyone). Matter of fact, I have not used anything warmer than my 30F quilt since I bought it, in spite of spending weeks out in 0-15F lows. An insulated jacket and warm baselayers are a given for around camp at those temperatures, so I use them for insulation while sleeping, too. 
-Liners are useless except for keeping your bag clean. The few that actually do add noticeable warmth are very heavy for what little they offer. I use a Sea to Summit Reactor as a summer bag the hottest few weeks of the year in Alabama, because it's about like having a thin sheet over you. Makes for a 1lb(!) sleep system in conjunction with a Klymit X-Lite Recon inflatable, though.
-That Alps Mountaineering bag is not just extremely heavy, but probably still not a 0F bag, either.
-What is March like in your part of MO? I googled the average temps, and it says 33F low, 56F high. Maybe you don't need a 10F capable bag, and I certainly wouldn't buy one just for one trip. Check into renting from local outdoor stores if you have any.
The TNF Cat's Meow is a solid synthetic bag that can almost always be found for $150-170, and is EN rated to 22F for men.
-How are the bugs? If it's cold enough to talk about bags with such low temp ratings, consider a tarp. Cheaper, lighter, and packs more compactly then a tent, though you'll need poles for support, or trees to tie off to. They can be a pain in the butt, and you'd need to read up on proper setup and practice a little, but the weight and money savings might make one worth a look.

Edit: Rob, you should look into a quilt, especially for hanging! I went all-in with my 30F-a Katabatic Palisade(the only "best" thing I own in this world), but my 50F is from Underground Quilts, and they and Hammock Gear have some very reasonable prices for high quality quilts with lots of options.

I've used the two together in the single digits(4F) just to see, and they worked great. Was using my down parka as a pillow, though, and don't normally go that route. My buddy was using a hammock with a 0 or 10F topquilt and 20F underquilt, and was ok with his clothes and insulated jacket on,


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

cgrutt said:


> Know a bunch of guys who swear by hammock and have done a lot of winter camping with them. They make quilts that go on the underside of the hammock that function similar to a pad for sleeping on the ground.


Yep. Works surprisingly well. You end up needing two quilts (at least) though, one for underneath you, outside the hammock and one for on top of you inside the hammock, although a sleeping bag can be used inside the hammock. The downside is that quilts that are made to hug the bottom of a hammock are not a common item, so they usually cost a decent amount. My hammock has an "undercover" that holds my insulation close and keeps the wind off of my backside, and when I was caught in colder weather than I was expecting, I just borrowed a plain, old, decorative quilt and tossed it on top of my undercover, and it did the job, but you do a lot better, I expect, with a purpose-made quilt.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

OwenM said:


> Edit: Rob, you should look into a quilt, especially for hanging! I went all-in with my 30F-a Katabatic Palisade(the only "best" thing I own in this world), but my 50F is from Underground Quilts, and they and Hammock Gear have some very reasonable prices for high quality quilts with lots of options.


Right now I'm in a Hennessy that has it's own under-insulation system made to work with its hammocks. It does the job pretty well, and only one time did I feel the need to supplement my standard insulation. And even then, it was a convenience. I wasn't going to freeze, I just wouldn't have been as warm as I like. Since I don't have much opportunity or desire to sleep colder than the 30s, it works. Eventually I'd like an underquilt because I think it would pack smaller, and could be used on another hammock if I ever decided to switch, but that's down the road.

A top quilt, however, is high on my list. I'm currently using a rectangular 30 degree bag for my coldest camping, and it really adds some bulk to my load. My warm weather mummy bag packs decently, but I definitely want a quilt for colder weather.

Right now I have a wish list for bikepacking/camping gear. Number 2 on the list in my top quilt, right after the frame bag.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Rob_E said:


> Number 2 on the list in my top quilt, right after the frame bag.


Ha! On the flip side, an underquilt is #3 on my list should I decide to try a hammock(that and a tarp being #1 and 2):thumbsup:
My gear is pretty much nailed down, but hammocks are sooo tempting.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

OwenM said:


> Ha! On the flip side, an underquilt is #3 on my list should I decide to try a hammock(that and a tarp being #1 and 2):thumbsup:
> My gear is pretty much nailed down, but hammocks are sooo tempting.


I had given up on bike camping because the amount of crap I was carrying to stay warm, dry, and comfortable filled the back of my station wagon. Then I was introduced to hammock camping, and I've been loving it ever since.


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

Another positive for hammock i will mention is how comfortable they are. I was skeptical about how my back would be when i woke up, not disappointed. If trees are around, i haven't used a tent since i bought my hammock. quilt is also #1 for me right now, but using a pad/sleeping bag has been good on the colder nights.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I carry a large Thermarest Neoair, a 20* NF mummy bag, and a Black Diamond Megamid lite. About 6 lbs, and these are fairly heavy, I could easily cut that to 4 lbs, but it's nice on cold nights at 8000'. I wear clothes or not in the bag depending on the temps.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

OP, borrow or rent, start there. Got your bike and gear carrying options dialed in?


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

Rob_E has the right idea with the mix & match system. 

I have a bag rated to 5C / 40F. I also have a sleeping bag liner that adds ~10F. I have used this setup comfortably down to the mid-teens, wearing more clothing to sleep. I would bring this clothing anyways for camping so it is not extra gear. In warm weather the liner and extra clothing is not needed. 

I mostly camp in warm-ish weather being in Socal. There is some cold weather camping too but not enough to really need a second, warmer bag. If you can only have one bag I would go with the lighter bag and layers. A blanket, liner or clothing make up the difference. You will be miserable in warmer months in a warm bag. You can always put more clothing on if cold. You can only take so much off if you are too hot. 

An insulated pad also makes a big difference in the cold but does not present a downside in warmer months. I often use a bivy as I find it retains heat better than a tent. If rain is possible I go with a tent, but rain means above freezing so warmth is less an issue. All of my gear is compact enough for backpacking/bikepacking. A similar sleeping bag to what I have can be had at REI for around $100. The Alps bag the OP linked to is a good cold weather bag but it is over 5 lbs. Try to get something in the 2.5-3 lb range that can compress down to a small size.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

leeboh said:


> OP, borrow or rent, start there. Got your bike and gear carrying options dialed in?


That's always a good idea. I think though I am going to just start cheap any purchase. It wouldn't hurt to have a good sleeping bag anyways. I am going to get one in the 30 degree F range and maybe a tarp or pad to sleep on. I am going light and simple to start. I had a good talk with my friend today who is putting it on and he just sleeps in a mummy bag on a self inflating mat in the open no tent. If it looks like rain a tarp could be used. I am not sure how much I will bike pack. This could just be a once or twice a year deal. My friend also told me they were going to be watching the weather trying to make it on a decent weekend weather wise. In other words if the forecast looks crappy ahead of time they are probably going to reschedule to a better weather weekend. None of use are going in survival mode. Just a nice relaxing bike pack that is beginner friendly.

To address the weight issue.....I just got back from a 13.5 miles gravel ride that was mostly flat. The gravel was soupy and muddy and the shoulders were soft and felt like riding in sand. I was on just my bare bike wearing my back pack and I tell you I realize now how weight is going to be a HUGE factor. That mud was hard as hell to ride in without my bike loaded down. Not that I didn't already know that riding in mud was harder lol but it refreshed my memory .



OwenM said:


> What is March like in your part of MO?


Its hard to tell. It can depend on the year. I remember a few winters having over a foot of snow in late March and others being beautiful and fairly warm.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

A couple thoughts based on 30 years of camping in a lot of different environments, and being responsible for others in the same:

You definitely want a pad, especially if the weather is going to be cool/cold. Not just for comfort, but for warmth as others have said. Good pads have insulative value, and can actually help in getting away with a lighter sleeping bag. Check out Klymit - they make an insulated pad (The Static V Insulated) that is still lightweight and very packable for a reasonable price. I love mine. 

I really like my hammock for warm weather. And sure, you can bring a bunch of extra stuff in order to make a hammock comfortable in cold weather, but at that point, are you really saving any weight or bulk over sleeping on the ground with a good insulated pad? In my experience, you will sleep warmer on the ground with less gear than the amount of gear it takes to keep you warm when you are suspended in the air. Just my .02

Rob's suggestion about 'mix and match' is a good one. It's like layers for your outoor clothing system - it's going to be a lot more versatile (and probably cheaper) in the long run than buying a bulky, heavy, zero-deg. sleeping bag that you will be sweating your ass off in the rest of the year and that is a pain to pack. 

Ultimately, go have fun. You'll learn a lot from your first trip about what to bring and what not to and then you'll continue to refine it on the one after that, and the one after that....


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## ser jameson (Jun 24, 2012)

All good advice. I'm a warm sleeper, and almost never wake up cold. I have an REI sub kilo, 20 degree down bag. I'm always warm in it, too warm even. It packs down to almost nothing. Nice bag. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

Smithhammer said:


> I really like my hammock for warm weather. And sure, you can bring a bunch of extra stuff in order to make a hammock comfortable in cold weather, but at that point, are you really saving any weight or bulk over sleeping on the ground with a good insulated pad? In my experience, you will sleep warmer on the ground with less gear than the amount of gear it takes to keep you warm when you are suspended in the air. Just my .02


That may be the case, but for me, it's all about comfort. Also the under insulation for my hammock compresses down more than any pad I've had, but at some temps you're going to need more insulation underneath, and that might tip the scale. Wouldn't matter to me, because I'd still want to be in the hammock. But really the only extra gear you need is a more heavy-duty under-quilt. The top insulation is pretty much the same no matter what kind of tent you have, but, yeah, your underside is much more vulnerable to heat loss in a hammock, so you have to take care.


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## Jake January (Sep 12, 2014)

These look like good three season hammocks.

Hennessy Hammock: The Coolest Tent in the World

Certainly have some good reviews.

Will be part of my next kit, me thinks. 
Combined with a lightweight down bag.

Kelty Cosmic Down +20 Sleeping Bag - REI.com


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## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

OwenM and Smithhammer hit the nail on the head. HA! 

But really follow their advice and you'll be set. Get a pad, you won't be warm without one. 

Check out Backpackinglight.com for further gear advice. I've been backpacking (including a few thru-hikes) for many years and those folks have it dialed in. You might be surprised how light gear can be.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

This is what I chose. I talked to a sales rep at REI yesterday and he highly recommended this bag. I chose a Klymit pad after research and a recommendation from a member earlier in this thread. Thanks guys.
Marmot Trestles 30 Sleeping Bag - REI.com

Klymit Static V Sleeping Pad - REI.com


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## Matterhorn (Feb 15, 2015)

Now just relax and enjoy your trip.


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## that guy again (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm not into hammocks but if you go with a tent, absolutely make it one that you can sit up in. Those little coffin solo tents are pretty awful if you want to actually sit in there and eat or change clothes or really do anything. I have a SixMoon Skyscape and love it.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

that guy again said:


> I'm not into hammocks but if you go with a tent, absolutely make it one that you can sit up in. Those little coffin solo tents are pretty awful if you want to actually sit in there and eat or change clothes or really do anything. I have a SixMoon Skyscape and love it.


I would say that that is one down side of a hammock. You're pretty much laying down in it or you're out in the weather. In warm weather there are options because you can sit on it or scoot it to the side and sit in a chair, under the tarp, out of the sun/rain. But if you're hiding from the cold and wet, you can suffer from cabin fever. Fortunately it's plenty comfortable, so a few hours laying in your hammock, reading a book, can be pleasant, but still confining.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

FWIW, I recently got into bikepacking and am on a budget. So, my experience may be useful to you, but it is coming from a newb, so you can take it with a grain of salt as well.

On ebay, you can find some really good deals on army surplus sleeping bags, which pack surprisingly small. (In fact, I have found that with a little ingenuity, many of the different molle bags/packs can be adapted into frame/handlebar, burrito bags, and panniers) You can get a fairly inexpensive liner from any number of places, as well as a space blanket. Cheap Tyvek sheet for a ground cover. 

A pad is essential. I have tried both a foam pad and inflatable. The inflatable works better by far, as it gives you some cushion and is much easier to pack and carry. The foam does seem to retain heat better but it is not as comfy and takes up a ton of room.

If it is colder, I usually sleep in the clothes I plan on wearing the next day, including base layers. Also, a cheap pair of pantyhose goes a long way towards keeping warm on cold nights.

For tents, I spent a lot of time researching inexpensive tents. You get what you pay for. Yes, you can make some of the cheaper ones work, but many have poor quality seams and poles that break. I went with a Texsport Cliff Hanger Three Season Backpacking Tent for under $50. It works ok, but it is REALLY cramped and I question is durability. I am either going to upgrade to a bigger bivy tent for $70-$80 or try out the hammock thing. You dont need a super fancy UL bikepacking tent, but don't be a total cheapass either. You'll be wishing you spent that extra 50 dollars when your pole breaks or the rainfly leaks through the seams and you wake up wet.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

I appreciate the feedback. I think for now I am looking into just taking a light tarp (maybe a piece of tyvek) and using sticks to hold it up over my bag. I am not ready to actually purchase a tent yet.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I actually bought a tent today. I had been looking at a Tarptent Moment DW but ended up with a Eureka Midori Solo. The Eureka weighs just a bit more but at 1/3 of the Moment DW price... You know how it is. light = more $$$s and you have to draw the line somewhere.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I was curious recently to look at the weights of my various most-often used shelter options for bikepacking, and I thought it might be (at least somewhat) useful to share that info here. I'm not anal about any this, and I don't count things down to individual grams - I just wanted to get a somewhat accurate sense of how much my various shelter options differed in weight, versus what they each offer me:

_OR Helium Bivy: 1.1lb
OR Helium Bivy/Silnylon Tarp (6'x10'): 2lb

Mountainsmith Mountain Shelter LT (w/pole, stakes): 2-3/4lb

Mountain Hardwear SuperMega UL (w/poles, stakes): 2.5lb

Eno 'Single Nest' Hammock/Eno Pro-Tarp/ tree straps/stakes: 3-1/4lb
_
All of these options assume I'm also going to be carrying some sort of sleeping pad/bag in addition.

The Helium bivy/tarp is my favorite combo for backcountry touring when I only need to worry about shelter for myself. When the weather is good, I may not use the bivy nor the tarp and just sleep in my bag/pad. However, if it seems like it's going to be wet out, I can use both. The nice thing about the tarp is that I can rig it overhead, still have my bag protected in the bivy, but be able to sit up, cook, etc. without getting soaked. Anyone who has ever spent a long time in a downpour with just a bivy sack can sympathize. This combo gives me plenty of options for various weather scenarios with very little weight.

The Mountainshelter LT has really impressed me, and it's my 'go to' when I'm bikepacking with a partner, or just want more privacy at a more public campground, etc. Spacious for its weight, easy to set up, and a real bargain for the price. I also tend to like floorless shelters for most of my trips. I'm surprised I don't hear more about this tent from other bikepackers.

The MH tent hasn't seen much use yet, as I just got it last fall. It's big enough for two (assuming you really like the other person) and is a good option when it's buggy as it has total coverage. Also incredibly light for what you get. I'll be using this more in the coming months, especially as we get into late spring/early summer mosquito season here in the Rockies.

The ENO combo is great for what it is. In fact, it lives in my truck all summer long, and any time I have the opportunity to hang out for a while, I string it up and love it. But it doesn't tend to go on many overnight trips anymore. As you can see, it's notably heavier than the other options. Plus, there's only about 2 months of the year where I live that it's actually warm enough at night that I wouldn't need additional insulation, like an underquilt, in order sleep warmly. So far, I haven't found any reason for the additional investment (and more weight), over other options that I already have instead.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

Smithhammer said:


> Plus, there's only about 2 months of the year where I live that it's actually warm enough at night that I wouldn't need additional insulation, like an underquilt, in order sleep warmly. So far, I haven't found any reason for the additional investment (and more weight), over other options that I already have instead.


Are you sure it would be more weight? I mean it's already your heaviest set up, but then there's the sleeping pad, if you use one. I don't know what sleeping pads weigh, and I don't count ounces anyway, but a spot check of some published weights found pads around a pound and down to about half that. And then I found a down underquilt for just under a pound as well. So it's not clear to me that trading a quilt for a pad would cost you much more weight, if any.

I just punched in the numbers for my Hennessy set-up, using their site, and came up with an ounce or two over 3 pounds. That's including the SuperShelter that provides under insulation and the over cover that keeps wind from whistling through the hammock on the coldest night and the stock tarp. It does not account for the space blanket I use underneath if it's going to get anywhere near freezing, nor does it factor in the fact that I'm using a tarp that's bigger than the stock one. But then it also doesn't account for the fact that I replaced the rope with some lighter stuff. And it doesn't figure in whatever sleeping bag, quilt, or blanket I would be throwing over me.

At any rate, weight is not a primary issue for me. When I look at what I carry now vs what I used 20+ years ago, every single thing is lighter and more functional. I probably still have that first tent in storage. I should weigh that for kicks.

I do believe that there are ultra-light tents that beat out most hammock set ups, but looking at a lot of set ups, it seems like the hammock penalty, when there is one, is one of ounces, not pounds. Not that it matters. You can double my hammock set-up's weight, and I'll still take it over a tent, and I'm sure there are tent users who feel the same way.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Well crap I changed my mind half a dozen times but at the expense of going as cheap as possible to start I ended up buying a 25 dollar 2 man pup tent like I had when I was 10. It weighs 3.5 lbs and packs up to 17x5x5. That's a fairly small package so it will suffice for a while unless I don't end up doing this a whole lot then it will work for a long time lol.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

iowamtb said:


> Well crap I changed my mind half a dozen times but at the expense of going as cheap as possible to start I ended up buying a 25 dollar 2 man pup tent like I had when I was 10. It weighs 3.5 lbs and packs up to 17x5x5. That's a fairly small package so it will suffice for a while unless I don't end up doing this a whole lot then it will work for a long time lol.


For a $25 tent, I would definitely get a sheet of tyvek for ground cover and seam seal the **** out of the tent.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Rob_E said:


> Are you sure it would be more weight? I mean it's already your heaviest set up, but then there's the sleeping pad, if you use one.


Yeah, I pretty much always use a sleeping pad with my hammock, even during the warm months. I'm at 6200' in the northern Rockies, and even a "warm" summer night can be in the 40's. The pad definitely helps with sleeping a little warmer, not because I actually need the additional padding if I'm in a hammock. But my two summer pad options are 16oz. and 9oz, and looking at underquilts from ENO, they start at 24oz. and go up from there. That's at least a difference of another half a pound, as well as a more bulky item to pack. My pads roll up really small (Klymit).

I'm also using bikepacking bags, not a rack & pannier type system, so I usually don't have a lot of spare room in my packing system.

Like I said, I'm not super meticulous about counting every gram, but I do pay some attention to weight. I'm also someone who sleeps just fine on the ground, so the advantages of a hammock system that is heavier than my other options generally just isn't worth it for me.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

skankingbiker said:


> For a $25 tent, I would definitely get a sheet of tyvek for ground cover and seam seal the **** out of the tent.


Its got a bathtub floor with heavy taffida floor. I am sure it won't be perfect but it will be better than nothing. Texsport Willowbend 2 Person A-Frame Tent 7' x 4'6 x 38 Polyester


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DavidBarker said:


> I think it is about your preference. If your gear is good and you are ready for any conditions then a tent outside is great. I don´t like sleeping in cars at all. But, if you get a van with a heater and you can sleep like that then sleeping the van would be fine. Whichever way you decide you have to stay at camping sites since wild camping is illegal. I always think tent camping is nice in the summer.


 Wild camping is not illegal. Trespassing on private property is. Get permission. or go with dispersed camping on fed and state areas. Done it in VT and NH, certain areas, not above certain elevations or near streams or trails, all good. The idea of stealth camping is leave no trace, arrive late, leave early. Be respectful. Done it all over New England. So many state parks, forests and open lands. They belong to everyone. Cheers.


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