# Hardtail or Full Suspension for New Rider



## joelzilla (Oct 2, 2011)

What would you recommend and why?


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## Ford Prefect42 (Aug 31, 2011)

I bought a hard tail and added a suspension seat post for now. The frame and component set I could afford was much nicer, and a FS bike in that price range ($1000-1500) would likely be a lot heavier. I may end up going FS at some point but enjoying this for now.


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

You usually get more bike (components) with a hard tail, for less, less weight, and less to mess with and maintain. For someone just starting, makes more sense to start simpler until you're a better rider and you're more confident that you intend on moving up.

This, of course, assumes general mountain bike riding and not something specific...where a FS bike makes sense - but who starts in a narrow niche? I guess some people do, but none I've met.

I could have afforded anything up front, really, but i went with a hard tail for the reasons I stated.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

If you can afford the FS then go with FS, it would be more comfortable and offer more control. If you don't have the budget for FS then go with HT. 

There''s no rule that you have to start with HT but most riders go that route because it's much lower investment. Most who start with HT would not stick around though compare to FS.

I started with both FS for me and HT for my wife(I know it's typical:madman I know if I started with HT I'd probably gave it up after a few rides it was not fun or comfortable. I couldn't tell the difference between a heavy bike and light(er) bike both bikes still kicked my A$$ on the climb but FS put bigger smile on my face on the way down.

What's your budget?


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

For me, a hardtail was a certain. It allows you to become a much better rider at the beginning because it forces you to pick much better lines. A FS can cover up most of the trail and you end up actually going much slower on it. 

Plus, cost is a huge factor. You can get a very good HT bike for ~1k but for a FS you are looking around ~2k.


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)

bballr4567 said:


> Hardtail . It allows you to become a much better rider at the beginning because it forces you to pick much better lines.
> Plus, cost is a huge factor. You can get a very good HT bike for ~1k but for a FS you are looking around ~2k.


^^^^ This.


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## 05kas05 (Mar 20, 2010)

i started out on a specialized hardrock disk because it was a decent bike at a fair price and it was also the bike most recommended. i rode it for about 6 months to make sure i liked mountainbiking which i did,i then upgraded the front shock and wheels/tires and rode it for another six months. i would still be ridding it but i was able to save up while riding it and got a specialized camber comp when they came out. now a year later im upgrading the camber and putting the old camber parts on my hardrock to make it a nine speed. i dont think you can go wrong either way but i love my the full suspension. if your just starting out i would recommend to see if you l.b.s might have a test bike program or rental so you could try both first. what kind of trails are you going to be ridding and what is your budget?


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## mayberry32 (Sep 17, 2011)

I had the same questions a few months ago. The price/quality issue between hardtail and FS made it a pretty easy decision for me. I didn't want a tank in a FS, and I wasn't willing to spend $2k on my first bike, which I felt was necessary to get the components and parts I wanted. I took the time to ride a few hardtails, and I can say after the first few test rides, I knew I wanted a 29er, and would not have a 26 hardtail. A few months later, I'm convinced I made the right decision for me. The 29 takes some of the bumps out of the trail, so it's honestly like being halfway between a 26 hardtail and a 26 FS bike in ride comfort. Otherwise, it just rolls so much faster on the downhills and flat sections, and seems to climb a lot better to me.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

bballr4567 said:


> For me, a hardtail was a certain. It allows you to become a much better rider at the beginning because it forces you to pick much better lines. A FS can cover up most of the trail and you end up actually going much slower on it.
> 
> Plus, cost is a huge factor. You can get a very good HT bike for ~1k but for a FS you are looking around ~2k.





Hutch3637 said:


> ^^^^ This.


Which part of the post are you agreeing with, the Cost is a huge factor? good HT for 1k FS for 2k, or HT make you a better rider?

Unfortunately, beginners only have 2 main choices; cheap but not as good product or good product but not cheap. It's true in many sports but not all. Going with higher end models mean more forgiveness, larger sweetspot, less weight, better looking, stronger, faster, longer in no particular order. Better players may prefer less forgiveness or even more weight for addition control.

Bike is similar to example. Choosing better models mean better performance, more forgiving, less weight, ya da blah etc. Going with HT would not make you a better rider than FS it simply limit your line choices for your current set of skills. Going with the logic that riding HT would make you a better rider than FS is just lazy thinking. My wife has much longer saddle time than me on a HT so that would make her a better rider than me who's started with FS?

In fact the opporsiite happen when she got her first FS, it was 2 lbs+ heavier than her HT and yet she's faster on the climb and on the descend, especially on the descend. Not only faster, and more control but it was the first time I've seen a smile on her face while descending

Faster riders is always be faster not because they are on HT or FS. If you don't want to spend too much then your only choice would be a Hardtail or may be a used FS. Cheap and good are mutually exclusive regardless of the marketing they try to spin


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

I was riding a friends FS bike for awhile, and was nice over bumps but didn't climb for s*** granted it was a downhill bike, so that may have had something to do with that. But I ended up buying a 29er HT. I just stand for the downhill parts, which coincidentally aids in maneuverability of the bike. Learned a skill on accident that way! ! I ride only singletrack anyway so while a FS would be nice, the lower price and easier maintenance of a HT is almost perfect for me. I LOVE this bike, and have no intentions of buying any more bikes for at least a few years yet. Except I might pick up a roadie at some point.


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## ubado (Oct 5, 2011)

Although I'm newly back into riding ... there's one thing I learned a long time ago ... Ride what you are most comfortable on. 

So, test both. Figure out where you are going to ride. Ask the folks at your LBS ... chances are, they ride the same spots ... so they can really help guide you to what is best for the type of riding you are going to do.


Personally I ride a HT ... the biggest reason I chose one was familiarity. Every bike I've owned has been a HT. My last MTB (which also was my first) was a HT. Plus with my years riding BMX and road bikes ... I wanted some thing familiar when I got back into MTB'ing. 
Another reason is ... I really like feeling what my back tire is doing. The ability to feel what my bike is doing beneath me has saved my sorry-skin a time or two. 
Lastly is maintenance and price of entry. They're more like a side benefit.


Eventhough many of places I ride are very, very rooty ... and it would be advantageous to have a FS in my arsenal ... still prefer to be on a HT. So much so ... I just picked up another HT into a rigid; for those places that have a manageable, to light, amount of rooty areas. Perhaps one day I'll own a FS ... just not today.


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)

*mimi1885*

The quote was referring to what the op asked, the other member stated his thoughts. I agreed with two parts of his response. Those being that a HT would save him money and, with a HT he would learn more basic skills that would turn over down the path when and if he chose to ride FS. To me when starting out I would keep it simple, sure the OP or anyone could jump onto a FS to not "limit" them. To each is their own.


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

Maybe I am old, but at 47 I still ride a hardtail. It all depends on if you want to plow or flow.
I will always chose to flow. If bombing downhills is your thing then full suspension is great.
If technical singletrack is on your mind and you are new to riding, cut your teeth on a HT.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

*Fair enough*



Hutch3637 said:


> The quote was referring to what the op asked, the other member stated his thoughts. I agreed with two parts of his response. Those being that a HT would save him money and, with a HT he would learn more basic skills that would turn over down the path when and if he chose to ride FS. To me when starting out I would keep it simple, sure the OP or anyone could jump onto a FS to not "limit" them. To each is their own.


Well, that's what most people believe unfortunately it's just not true. NuB at the same skill level and fitness, one on HT and another on FS the FS would have more line choices even when he/she is on a HT.

Most skill you learn on FS can be transfer to HT but not exactly the other way around. My SS is a softtail I ride them on the same trail and the same line as my FS and about the same speed. My friends who's been riding HT for a decade when switch to FS still prefer to ride the same line as his HT he claimed that it's faster to go around the obstacle than over them:skep:

I enjoy them all, I'd ride different bikes on the same trail and would get a refreshing expereince. My next bike project would be a fattire full rigid 29er


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## pecsokak (Sep 23, 2010)

To a newbie i dont think speed is a huge factor. I know for me if i was getting my first bike I wouldn't be considering weight savings or the type of talk of a ht or a fs making you a faster rider over all. All that matters when starting out is getting a bike that makes you want to get out there and ride it.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I think riders will eventually be better if they learn on a hardtail. They learn to use their 'human suspension' to it's fullest potential, and that will translate over to FS and they will ultimately be a better, smoother rider. They also learn to pick better lines which isn't always important . . . . until it is very important.

I have seen first hand how riders that start and stick with a hardtail until their skills develop a fair amount will then shred, while many that start or go FS early on never really get that good as the FS made them lazy. It won't always be that way, but I have seen it enough to recommend that new riders learn for a while on a hardtail before going FS.

It's somewhat natural to want to get what all the cool kids are riding and it would make things easier to navigate at first, but may stunt long-term skill development. I prefer to see new riders learn gradually so they don't get in over their heads and hurt themselves because they don't have the well-rounded skills to handle it when things get dicey and the sense to know when they are in over their head. 

Kind of like taking a newbie down to the motorcycle shop and recommending a sportbike because they are such a capable bike (in the hands of a skilled rider) or giving a Corvette to a new driver on their 16th birthday. 

Another reason for newer riders to go with a hardtail is the economical side of things. If money is an object, it's a good idea to start out with an entry level bike to see if you like the sport and are willing to continue. f it's not for you, then you can sell the bike and not lose much. If you like it, you can learn for a year or two before moving on. The common sense side of this is that a new rider will not really have that much of an idea of what type of bike suits the type of riding they enjoy most and has the components they prefer (not to mention sizing). Their chances of getting the right bike for them as a beginner are far slimmer and they have blown a significant amount when they could have been saving money toward their second bike that would be chosen after they know much more about who they are as a rider.

If money is abundant, then the above paragraph isn't as important, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

I have coached soccer for many years and when we are teaching young kids to perform skills, we start them out slowly with no pressure. Some coaches even like to make them learn to kick with bare feet so they get the correct technique for striking a ball down to where it is something they do automatically before increasing the speed, space and opposition. As the speed, space and opposition increase, technique will break down so they are increased gradually so the player doesn't develop poor technique or not be able to perform at all once the S,S&O ratchet up. I take the same tact with developing riders.

Not necessarily 'right' or 'wrong', just my opinion based on my own anecdotal experience.


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## ak_cowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

^
Start with a hardtail.

Makes you learn how to ride better (read lines, use your legs, etc)

Cheaper


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## Daniel Soh (Jul 13, 2011)

Had a HT for 4 months before investing in a FS. If budget permits go for a FS, as it would minimized a double investment. Rode my HT and cover a distance of around 1200 miles over those period, must admit it is cheaper to invest in a HT, but the lessons I gotten from riding it, serves me well now on a FS, line selection and body position over rocky terrains and jumps to absorb impact.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

bballr4567 said:


> For me, a hardtail was a certain. It allows you to become a much better rider at the beginning* because it forces you to pick much better lines.* A FS can cover up most of the trail and you end up actually going much slower on it.
> 
> Plus, cost is a huge factor. You can get a very good HT bike for ~1k but for a FS you are looking around ~2k.


Depends on your point of view. I started on a Hardtail, when I went with FS it allowed me to pick what I considered the better lines, because they were more fun.

It depends on what mountain biking is for you. Some people I know go to the trail and they find it fun to 'pick the best line' that gets them through most efficiently.

However, my friends and I go and look for the lines that get me the most air or are more difficult and fun to us. We're the type that will stop at a fun jump and spend 30 minutes doing it over and over.

For me, FS gave me a lot more options and I don't think riding a HT made me any better. It made me choose easier lines. Maybe that's what some people consider a better riding, picking the easiest way through.


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## kmac999 (Apr 12, 2010)

TwoTone said:


> Depends on your point of view. I started on a Hardtail, when I went with FS it allowed me to pick what I considered the better lines, because they were more fun.
> 
> It depends on what mountain biking is for you. Some people I know go to the trail and they find it fun to 'pike the best line' that gets them through most efficiently.
> 
> ...


For me the "better lines" isn't the heart of a hardtail. It will teach you real bike skills. There are times there is only one line and learning it on a hardtail will teach you how to ride. A full suspension bike can cover that up and give you a false sense of security that could bite you in the azz when you are taking your riding to the next level. To me you need to learn to walk before you run


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

kmac999 said:


> For me the "better lines" isn't the heart of a hardtail. It will teach you real bike skills. There are times there is only one line and learning it on a hardtail will teach you how to ride. A full suspension bike can cover that up and give you a false sense of security that could bite you in the azz when you are taking your riding to the next level. To me you need to learn to walk before you run


One of my friends bought a FS about a week before I got my HT. Im consistently faster than he is despite him having the better bike and being in better shape. He plows through the stuff while Ive learned to pick through and not smash into everything with my tiny 80mm fork.

It does make a difference.

Its different for different people though. For me, a HT was the only logical choice. It was what I could afford and I knew it would teach ME to be a better rider.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

kmac999 said:


> For me the "better lines" isn't the heart of a hardtail. It will teach you real bike skills. There are times there is only one line and learning it on a hardtail will teach you how to ride. A full suspension bike can cover that up and give you a false sense of security that could bite you in the azz when you are taking your riding to the next level. To me you need to learn to walk before you run





bballr4567 said:


> One of my friends bought a FS about a week before I got my HT. Im consistently faster than he is despite him having the better bike and being in better shape. He plows through the stuff while Ive learned to pick through and not smash into everything with my tiny 80mm fork.
> 
> It does make a difference.
> 
> Its different for different people though. For me, a HT was the only logical choice. It was what I could afford and I knew it would teach ME to be a better rider.


Point taken, I forget that I had years on a BMX bike, so my move to mountain bikes was different


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

bballr4567 said:


> One of my friends bought a FS about a week before I got my HT. Im consistently faster than he is despite him having the better bike and being in better shape. He plows through the stuff while Ive learned to pick through and not smash into everything with my tiny 80mm fork.
> 
> It does make a difference.
> 
> Its different for different people though. For me, a HT was the only logical choice. It was what I could afford and I knew it would teach ME to be a better rider.


I'm in a similar situation. Bought myself a HT 29er. I wanted a 29er and a FS 29er was WAY out of my budget. My future brother in law who got me into this sport used to kick my ass when I was on his second bike. A FS also. He rides FS exclusively He's been doing this for several years. Though I'm not sure to the degree which he rides. I know he's in better shape and has a better bike than me. Yet on my HT I just walked away from him. On climbs, downhill and in the turns. I just kept putting more ground between us and I was holding back. Not sure why, but I think the HT may have had something to do with it? Or maybe it was the bigger tires, or maybe I've just vastly improved my skills since the previous times riding with him. But obviously the HT didn't hurt me any!


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

I personally have always ridden hardtails as I have never ridden anything that made me say to myself.... "I NEED full suspension". You'd be surprised what a hardtail can do through fast bumpy downhills.

I have ridden full suspension bikes with 5-6" travels and it does feel nice to be able to plow through rocks, steps, and ruts like it's nothing, but as many people said it teaches you nothing because it's compensating for lack of skill. 

I think the biggest issue with getting a FS as a first newbie bike is that you don't know for a fact you're going to keep riding. A lot of people get all gung ho and buy an expensive FS rig and after a ride on the trails they go, "F this, this is not for me". The bike either collects dust or they end up having to sell it for half the price they bought it for.


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## Big Tiki (Nov 28, 2010)

29er hard tail with tubeless, low pressure tires. Also, check out the books by Ned Overend and Brian Lopes. Your arms and legs provide far more suspension (travel) than any FS bike can. Good luck.


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## pecsokak (Sep 23, 2010)

If HT's will inherently make you a better rider, and beginners should ride them, then can't the same be said for rigid bikes? Nothing there to help you get over obstacles, so then you choose the best lines, and have the best skills developed? And even less investment then a HT.

To me it seems to be largely based on money, and the trails you are riding. If you can get on a bike on the trails then do it and you will be able to decide which you would prefer.


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## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

I've got an FS 26er and a 29er SS rigid.......my next new bike will be a HT 29er - the bigger wheels with lower tire pressure allow for a comfortable ride but the gears will allow me to ride some of the bigger mountains in my area.......


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)

Where's the OP? Half of us have mentioned a HT but it's up to the OP for some input. In the end it's what suits you best.


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## kmac999 (Apr 12, 2010)

pecsokak said:


> If HT's will inherently make you a better rider, and beginners should ride them, then can't the same be said for rigid bikes? Nothing there to help you get over obstacles, so then you choose the best lines, and have the best skills developed? And even less investment then a HT.
> 
> To me it seems to be largely based on money, and the trails you are riding. If you can get on a bike on the trails then do it and you will be able to decide which you would prefer.


I think a hard-tail with a suspension fork is really middle ground between an FS bike and fully rigid. Truthfully I can ride my hard-tail everywhere I ride my FS bike, it's just more fun and faster on my FS bike. People can claim they are too hard core for a hard-tail but really, a skilled rider on a hard-tail can ride everything including DH. I raced a local dh on my AM hard-tail and my time beat a lot of people on full DH rigs. Too many people get wrapped up in what they are riding, it's really about rider skill and I personally believe I learned more riding my hard-tail with a suspension fork over an FS bike. I bought my wife a hard-tail this summer (Transition Trans Am) just to help her with her bike handling skills. She has an Intense 5.5 and she was struggling learning a few moves. A month on the hard-tail and the next time on her 5.5 and she was flying.

That's my personal experience, others may disagree.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Cormac said:


> didn't climb for s*** granted it was a downhill bike, so that may have had something to do with that.


Ya think?



Cormac said:


> I just stand for the downhill parts, which coincidentally aids in maneuverability of the bike.


Good you learned that lesson but that's what you should do on any bike, FS, hard tail or rigid.



Cormac said:


> I might pick up a roadie at some point.


FYI, a "roadie" is a cyclist that rides a road bike so if you pick one up make sure she's a cute one.

Not bagging Cormac, just trying to add some constructive criticism. I started on a rigid bike because in 1988 that was all that was available. Bought the first suspension fork when it became available (RS1) and was an early adopter of the FS phenomenon (and those early FS bikes did bob and squeak and need lots of maintenance...). Since the OP didn't specify his skill/experience level or price range, there's been loads of e-speculation on what his needs/wants are. Sure a HT teaches you good basic handling skills, but there are lots of good suspension designs out there that 1. aren't that much heavier and 2. don't dumb down the trail to the point of slowing the learning curve that much. Maybe it's my 51 y.o. bones talking (along with the rocky, rooty, technical trails I ride), but if you can afford it I'd go with a FS.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

I do agree with many posters here on either side of the issue. It comes down to the learning process. If you want to be a better rider then Hardtail is the way to go but it takes time and for some more commitment, but if you want to ride better now go with Full Suspension it help err out your mistake and give you more control.

If the question simply is which one is better for a NuB then I'd say FS because they are more comfortable and offer more control new riders on an FS tend to stick with the sport. Not all NuBs would pay the dues and take the time to learn things and MTB is different than riding on paved road. Want to be a better rider? check your local club for skill clinic they are usually free, or you can attend one of many skill clinic it would improve your skills much faster than learning on your own because not all of us have the gift of coordination, balance and fearless attitude



It's pretty simple really, OP asked Hardtail or Full Suspension for new rider. The answer is Full Suspension. If there's more part to the question the answer may be different.

How about this If you have 10k and can only have one bike would you choose HT or FS


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

HT would be better for a new rider so that they can feel out the trails better and develop skill based on that.

I have both FS and HT and I still really enjoy my HT out there!


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## drblauston (Aug 27, 2011)

As there is no answer but only our opinions...

my two cents say that a hardtail with a better fork and drivetrain would be a much smarter option for a new rider if their budget is around 1500.. Over 1500 and only if you're patient and know what you're looking for you can find good deals on full sus every so often.

Beginning riding on a HT is a much better learning experience as riders learn to pick good lines and handle rougher terrain easier. A good hardtail can do pretty much anything a full suspension can - it just is a different kind of riding that if you're new to the sport would greatly improve your skills. I started riding rigid and love to ride a rigid 26er every so often still just because of the challenge...


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

NOT AGAIN!

I don't want to go back to my lab report quite yet, though.

I think it's a wash. On the one hand, I think riding a hardtail helps a rider learn good handling skills. On the other hand, there's already a lot to learn, and FS bikes seem to help new riders keep up with more experienced riders sooner. I wonder if people were talking about rigid vs. suspension bikes before front suspension became the rule?

A lot of mountain bikers will buy multiple bikes. There's no rule that says someone who started on an FS can't buy a hardtail and work on some handling skills later.

A lot of mountain bikers buy once, and ride the same bike for many years. Maybe not most of the ones on this forum, but they do exist. Why should of one them saddle himself with a bike he won't enjoy as much later, for some supposed learning benefits?

I haven't ridden a FS bike I've liked very much. Maybe it's riding for a long time in college on a hardtail, maybe it's spending a lot of time on the road between then and when I picked it up again, maybe it's something about my build, maybe it's a style thing. I dunno. But, some people swear by them. I'm not going to say they're wrong.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

mimi1885 said:


> Well, that's what most people believe unfortunately it's just not true. NuB at the same skill level and fitness, one on HT and another on FS the FS would have more line choices even when he/she is on a HT.
> 
> Most skill you learn on FS can be transfer to HT but not exactly the other way around. My SS is a softtail I ride them on the same trail and the same line as my FS and about the same speed. My friends who's been riding HT for a decade when switch to FS still prefer to ride the same line as his HT he claimed that it's faster to *go around the obstacle* than over them:skep:
> 
> I enjoy them all, I'd ride different bikes on the same trail and would get a refreshing expereince. My next bike project would be a fattire full rigid 29er


Mountain Biking Blasphemy

I think it boils down to your riding style. I keep reading a HT teaches you how to pick the better lines. Better for who? Maybe you.

Personally, If I went out on a trail looking for the smoothest lines etc.. it's be boring, might as well road bike. I look for things to hit, everything it possibly a jump or something to try and ride over.

So better line to some of you is the boring worse line to others.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

I am looking for a new bike and am making the same decision -- well, MADE the decision actually.

I got to ride both at a Trek demo. The FS is definitly better on rocky trails and high-speed downhill runs. It's not as good going uphill, and I didn't like it as much on relatively smooth twisty singletrack -- not a huge difference -- maybe just because I am used to hardtail.

The decision really hinges on what type of trail you ride and what you like. Get the bike optimized towards how you do most of your riding. I figure for where I ride, a FS would be ideal for about 25% of the trail and the HT for the rest. Add to that the fact that while you obviously climb and descend the same number of feet in the course of a ride, you spend way more TIME climbing.

The FS bike I rode was a Trek Superfly 100 AL Elite. It has a rather stiff sporty suspension. I was surprised that, even on the softest setting, it didn't make all that much difference in ride comfort. It rides a little softer, but it is still a rough ride -- you will still want to stand up when going over big roots and bumps just as with an HT. I was told that the Rumblefish would have a softer ride.

Regardless, even with my limited experience and knowledge, I think it is safe to say that rear suspension isn't going to matter nearly as much as front. I guess that's why you never see a bike with rear suspension and a solid fork


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

*HT vs FS*

Well, here is my two cents on this topic. 
My first bike was a Bridgestone MB-4 HT. My first mistake was I bought a bike that was too big for me. So, make sure you are sized correctly. Secondly, I had a fork installed by a shop who didn't know how to install a Girvin Vector (linkage style fork). I ended up "endoing" because the stack height was not correct and the bottom of the head tube "bottomed out" on the tire causing it to stop and my flipping.

Needless to say that was the last time I rode that bike!

I started looking for a new bike, not necessarily an FS, but I wasn't ruling that out. Luckily, I found a 97' Schwinn Homegrown LXT for a very good price and even better I could put it in lay away. When I got it out, I hit the trails and couldn't believe how much more control I had. Handling in the turns was a breeze. The only real issue I ever had was the fact that it had a URT (unified rear triangle) design. When I climbed seated, the bike would pogo resulting in my knees being higher and my working harder to pedal. Yes, I could have adjusted the shock to be stiffer, but then that defeats the reason for having FS. So, I bought a Cane Creek Cloud Nine with compression and rebound dampening. That took care of all of my problems. The bike handles beautifully. I do sometimes think about getting another FS, but it works very well for me so why bother? 
My experience with the first bike doesn't have to be yours. Don't let someone sell you something for the sake of having a bike, just because you don't like anything else. 
Make sure it's a good fit. You will find that the bikes today in the "mid priced range" have very comparable setups (gearing ratios etc.) to that of their higher end counter parts. You may need to swap out a derailleur eventually, but all parts wear out.

I hope this helps.


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## dodgeball2d (Apr 20, 2011)

I started with a full suspension - my thoughts on it were this. Lines? I want to pick the spot in the trail which looks most fun and rock the hell out of it. 

That and I also don't have the greatest lower back and the full suspension is a lot easier on that :thumbsup:

I am curious though - what kind of HT is everyone recommending at the $1k price range? When I was initially looking (mostly new mind you) I had trouble finding one for $1k that had solid components


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Components today are really much better than when I bought my FS. My bike has XT & LX components mostly, which are all good yes. However, the old Alivio, Acera X etc. really weren't very robust. There are some higher priced bikes like Cannondale who use the lowest components and sell for about $1000. I like Cannondale, but that's one reason I wouldn't buy one. You have to plan on upgrades right away.

If I were looking for myself, I'd look at the "Gary Fisher" line and see what he has in that price range. That or Specialized.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I started with a HT (two, actually) before I ended up getting a FS.

My wife has taken the same route.

The logic for us doing it that way was that we weren't sure we'd really like it, and understanding that most bikes people buy as newbies wind up collecting dust in the garage, we didn't want to have really expensive dust bunnies.

I didn't buy my first bike to ride the trails, to be honest. I just bought a rigid steel mtb for a campus bike. I discovered trails on that bike, and quickly needed to upgrade for a number of reasons - one of which was that I was also a newbie to bike maintenance and I destroyed ALL of the bearings by using a high pressure hose in the greenhouse to wash it before storing it in my dorm room.

I did a slight upgrade to a more trail-worthy hardtail and I developed my skills on that bike. I learned to bunny hop, wheelie, ride clipless pedals, track stand, etc. But that bike beat the snot out of me on the trails I rode. The constant shaking made me more sore than the pedaling. I upgraded to a FS that I still ride today. It's just a 4" FS, and I don't see much need for more considering the riding I do. Just enough suspension to keep my wheels on the ground, but not so much that I don't feel the trail anymore. I ride fairly technical stuff with it, and I'll get a little bit of air, too.

I do recommend budgeting enough to get a bike that has as much Deore or better components as possible. The increased durability over Alivio and Acera is worth it, IMO. Most of the Deore components on my second bike are still in service after 11 yrs. The shifters did eventually wear out after about 8yrs, but that's not bad. LX is probably the best combination of price/performance in Shimano's line.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

dodgeball2d said:


> I started with a full suspension - my thoughts on it were this. Lines? I* want to pick the spot in the trail which looks most fun and rock the hell out of it. *
> 
> That and I also don't have the greatest lower back and the full suspension is a lot easier on that :thumbsup:
> 
> I am curious though - what kind of HT is everyone recommending at the $1k price range? When I was initially looking (mostly new mind you) I had trouble finding one for $1k that had solid components


That's been my point this entire time. All this talk about learning lines, sounds too much like racer talk to me.

I know, it's all what floats your boat, but I've never understood watching guys on bikes that costs 3x times mine, riding around everything in the trail. Never made no sense to me.


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

TwoTone said:


> That's been my point this entire time. All this talk about learning lines, sounds too much like racer talk to me.
> 
> I know, it's all what floats your boat, but I've never understood watching guys on bikes that costs 3x times mine, riding around everything in the trail. Never made no sense to me.


It's just a mindset....towards a specific goal. Do you get up to go the bathroom and climb over furniture, take the long way, perhaps even visit a few other rooms before hitting the can?

Doubt it. Sometimes you take the most efficient way there because it meets your goal at the time.

Sometimes a trail ride is about endurance, or a relaxing day on the bike where an easier line means longer distances....not balls-out obstacles until you're gassed. Other times, it's fun to challenge yourself.

You also have to look at it from a noob's perspective - being ABLE to find the best line and CHOOSING NOT TO hit the best line are two very different things. Learning to avoid target fixation, looking up the trail, line selection that makes a section doable verses landing on your ass is a skill we all need to master, and it's many people's contention that a hard tail aids in that skill building.


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## drblauston (Aug 27, 2011)

I think when people mention picking lines in this thread they're mostly referring to avoiding plowing into 3" to 4" tall roots or rocks while ascending or avoiding awkward v-ditches or roots that can catch you while descending. While you certainly can not care about your line because you have enough suspension it just puts unnecessary strain on your bike... When you do have the urge to plow into rocks and roots you usually run through rock gardens a couple times to improve your technical skills, purposefully hitting stuff differently to see how you and your bike react.

I'm not saying these are boring lines, but more the lines that allow me to keep my speed and momentum so I can pop off the jumps a little higher and a little faster to have a more flowing and overall fun ride. That and you learn to scan the trail better, anticipate obstacles and your body position, etc what swingset said above. Though maybe that is a bit of a racer mindset...


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## ak_cowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

TwoTone said:


> That's been my point this entire time. All this talk about learning lines, sounds too much like racer talk to me.


But did you start out hitting every jump and kicker your first time on the trails?

I think most guys here are going with beginner=never ridden before. Not a lot of people are going to jump on a bike for the first time and "rock it" They need to build up confidence first.


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

swingset said:


> You also have to look at it from a noob's perspective - being ABLE to find the best line and CHOOSING NOT TO hit the best line are two very different things. Learning to avoid target fixation, looking up the trail, line selection that makes a section doable verses landing on your ass is a skill we all need to master, and it's many people's contention that a hard tail aids in that skill building.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Perfectly said IMHO.


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## joelzilla (Oct 2, 2011)

Awesome responses. I just recently purchased a Superfly AL hardtail and was kinda having second thoughts on getting a FS instead as my first MTB. But after reading all responses I feel like I made a good decision. I need to gain the basic skills and confidence to build up to a FS bike. I never got a chance to test ride a FS since it seems a bit over my budget.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

ak_cowboy said:


> But did you start out hitting every jump and kicker your first time on the trails?
> 
> I think most guys here are going with beginner=never ridden before. Not a lot of people are going to jump on a bike for the first time and "rock it" They need to build up confidence first.


True, but I think if you have the money, get a good FS vs. a hard.

As I admit, my experience if very different. I was a BMXer in the past, so my low end HT was a waste of money for me, first time out on the trails and I knew I needed a better bike.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I think picking lines on the trail is part of the fun!! It's like you can control exactly how you want it, rough and fun or quick and smooth or maybe a nice fat jump. The other fun part is figuring out what your favorite line is on certain parts and how you can improve. 

I've recently figured out how to ride my HT through rough sections better. I'm actually flying through the areas at the same speed as my FS (my FS is actually slower because of the tires on it). It's like this perfect stance on it where the bike can easily rock back and forth as you plow over stuff, good times!


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

joelzilla said:


> Awesome responses. I just recently purchased a Superfly AL hardtail and was kinda having second thoughts on getting a FS instead as my first MTB. But after reading all responses I feel like I made a good decision. I need to gain the basic skills and confidence to build up to a FS bike. I never got a chance to test ride a FS since it seems a bit over my budget.


That's quite the bike for a beginner. Good for you. Hell, I still won't pay $1900 for a bike and I've been riding almost 15 years. That's mostly due to the fact that I buy most of my bikes used .

Buying a 29er almost bridges the real of HT vs. FS. You're gonna love your bike. If you want to get more aggressive in the future, you can always pick up another trail bike to add to the stable.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

People who think "line selection" means riding around all the obstacles don't understand line selection.

Picking lines is about whatever you want it to be. Hitting all the kickers is a _line_ that some riders _select._ Actually, a good one for a hardtail - the rigid rear triangle really lets you boost.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> People who think "line selection" means riding around all the obstacles don't understand line selection.
> 
> Picking lines is about whatever you want it to be. Hitting all the kickers is a _line_ that some riders _select._ Actually, a good one for a hardtail - the rigid rear triangle really lets you boost.


 line selection simply mean choice of line. Picking smooth line "often" mean riding around obstacles. It depends on the mood, fitness level I may want over not around one day but opporsite the next


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, there's also the smooth line and the fast line. And they're not always the same.  Usually, but sometimes there's an 'A' line that's a lot rougher but gets it done.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> True, but I think if you have the money, get a good FS vs. a hard.
> 
> As I admit, my experience if very different. I was a BMXer in the past, so my low end HT was a waste of money for me, first time out on the trails and I knew I needed a better bike.


]

I agree:thumbsup:

Yes, FS for NuB may be too much bike in the beginning but it would be better in the long(er) run.

IMO the benefit of choosing the HT for beginner is mostly "on the bright side" reason not necessary the main reason.

Cheaper
More simple
Good learning tool; make you a better rider in the long run
Low investment to walk away from in case Mountain Biking ain't your thing
Efficiency; though I disagree with HT being more efficient than FS but solid power transfer sure give you more motivation to surge forward.

BTW, my goal on every ride is not to plow thru obstacles but to minimized both wheel to touch it, front is much easier than rear for sure but I keep trying.

Like jt"the king"martino said you can score great used FS for relatively good price. I help many of my friends into their first full suspension bike under 1k, all of them still riding. My favorite search would be the Cannondale Rush or Prophet with lefty for $700-900.

I'm not against Hardtail in anyways but I find the reason for recommendation weak considering this thread has no price attach to it.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I gotta say that after my latest bout of test riding, my money-no-object bike is actually a hardtail.

The Santa Cruz Highball is a pretty sweet ride. 

If things haven't changed when I'm in position to change out my competition bikes, I'll have some ulterior motives not to go with that brand. Oh well.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I gotta say that after my latest bout of test riding, my money-no-object bike is actually a hardtail.
> 
> The Santa Cruz Highball is a pretty sweet ride.
> 
> If things haven't changed when I'm in position to change out my competition bikes, I'll have some ulterior motives not to go with that brand. Oh well.


My money-is-no-object dream bike is a hardtail as well, although I'd go custom Ti instead of carbon. Eriksen, Potts, Strong, etc.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

If I was going to do metal, I might actually do steel.

S3 Custom Bicycles from Rodriguez bicycles

A mountain bike would benefit from slightly more conservative choices, but steel is awesome stuff, and those tubesets keep getting better. Crazy.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

AndrwSwitch said:


> If I was going to do metal, I might actually do steel.
> 
> S3 Custom Bicycles from Rodriguez bicycles
> 
> A mountain bike would benefit from slightly more conservative choices, but steel is awesome stuff, and those tubesets keep getting better. Crazy.


Steel is real (long-time and current steel hardtail owner here) but Ti is blingy and baller. And it doesn't rust. And it's easy to repair. And it's easy to maintain the finish (with a scotch brite pad, no less.) And it's easy to modify (think adding disc brake tabs.) And it just looks so sexy.

But damn, those new steel bikes are awesome. So are the stainless ones.

But Potts and Eriksen don't make steel rides anymore, so that limits my "dream bike" choices.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

LOL. Rodriguez is down the street from me. If I was going to do an artisan bike, I'd want one that was truly local. 

I'm curious to see what happens with composites, especially now that the automotive industry is starting to really use them. We're getting better and better at manipulating carbon on a molecular and atomic level, so the potential to create carbon fibers and whiskers with an even higher tensile strength is there. Maybe we'll figure out some better matrixes to go with it.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

jtmartino said:


> My money-is-no-object dream bike is a hardtail as well, although I'd go custom Ti instead of carbon. Eriksen, Potts, Strong, etc.


Don't forget Seven, I love Seven. I have a custom Steel Sola, Steel Axiom Road bike and a Duo ti they know what they are doing. I also have custom size Eriksen era Moots YBB. I've been thinking about Jeff Jones Spaceframe steel and Wolfhound 29er but spending that kind of cash on another bike instead of a new FS is tough because I'd never want to let it go

I don't know if I'd go with the Stainless steel choice though, I rode the IndyFab road bike SS and Ti back to back the Ti feel noticeably more comfortable and cheaper than SS too. Though I'm sure that they can build it to how you like to ride but that's my limited experience with SS tube.



AndrwSwitch said:


> If I was going to do metal, I might actually do steel.
> 
> S3 Custom Bicycles from Rodriguez bicycles
> 
> A mountain bike would benefit from slightly more conservative choices, but steel is awesome stuff, and those tubesets keep getting better. Crazy.


Racer like you may also like Soulcraft option 3, my wife's has a woman's version called Title9. I have a few nice ti and steel in my collection I'd say you can't go wrong with either decision.


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## YslashN (Nov 8, 2011)

After reading all the posts im sure glad i went with a HT (Raleigh Talus 3.0 2011)


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

When I refer to line choice, I mainly am speaking of through rooty sections, or rock gardens. My 29er makes short work of roots and smaller rocks, but my choice of line is the one that lets me go the fastest. Not for racing purposes, but because it's just fun to go fast! Usually means I'm zig zaging through rooty/rocky sections. Which is also quite fun.

I'd probably do the same on FS, but it's not as important.


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## MarinRR (Nov 8, 2011)

I am over 35, and having used both, I think the dual suspension bikes are much easier in your body, especially in long rides. So I would say if you have the money (or find a good used one) go for dual, your body will thank you!


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## giant_in_a_trance (Nov 14, 2011)

buy whatever bike you like the look off, its down to rider ability more then what bike


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## xenophobe (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm 43 and have never needed a full suspension bike. If you drive to your trails, get whatever bike looks prettiest to you. All my trails are local and I ride to them so a hardtail is pretty much a no-brainer.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

TwoTone said:


> I think it boils down to your riding style. I keep reading a HT teaches you how to pick the better lines. Better for who?


Excellent point 

Here's another one:

When you are new, you probably don't know, yet, what your riding style is.

So one approach is to keep the initial cost low(ish) and get a hardtail for finding out what you really like to do with your bike. A HT or rigid bike certainly lets you know what is on the ground, which may be an asset. I still do not think that a HT automatically makes a better FS rider.


mimi1885 said:


> line selection simply mean choice of line. Picking smooth line "often" mean riding around obstacles.


... but not always (you did say "often"). Sometimes trying to ride around one thing leads to trouble at the next one. So you need to pick which obstacles to go over.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

I wish i would have bought a HT 29er , but i ended up with a FS26 bike. Soon i will sell off the FS26 , buy a HT 29er and a FS29er and finally an aggressive 26er. What a pain buying bikes for all the different types of riding i want to do.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

terrasmak said:


> I wish i would have bought a HT 29er , but i ended up with a FS26 bike. Soon i will sell off the FS26 , buy a HT 29er and a FS29er and finally an aggressive 26er. What a pain buying bikes for all the different types of riding i want to do.


Are you're riding styles so different they require 2 bikes? I've test ridden a 650B 130mm bike and I'm going to ride a 29er with a 130mm travel.

I ride mostly crosscountry, but I'm the type that tries to make a jump out of everything. I go lift rides 2-3 time a summer.

If the ride goes well I may actually end up on the 130mm 29er. I was jumping it out in the front yard and it handled in the air nicely for me. Now I have to see how it handles tight single track at speed.


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## CarolinaLL6 (Apr 12, 2010)

Kind of parallel to riding style is what's your local terrain like? Smooth single track, rocky trails, etc. Love my HT and have no desire for a FS bike, but if I was out west with all of the rocks I may have gone FS.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

perttime said:


> ... but not always (you did say "often"). Sometimes trying to ride around one thing leads to trouble at the next one. So you need to pick which obstacles to go over.


Excellent point, quite a few trails I ride this is a delima especially on the climb where smart line choices would allow you to clean the section. It makes mtb riding fun one day I pick one line and another day I can try the way around. Both can be fun, as long as it's not just one way to do it:thumbsup:


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## Call_me_Tom (May 26, 2008)

I started with a FS back in '01 and after my bike was stolen I took about a 7 year break. When I got back into the sport I went with a HT. 

The biggest factor was price and my riding style. 

I used to FR and bomb down trials but now that I'm older I like to go the distance and take in the scenery. I also can't stand heavy bikes on the up hill climbs no matter how fun it is coming back down. I might go FS sometime down the road but right now, it's cost prohibitive and not a priority.

Whether I do go FS or not, I'll always have a HT in my stable.

One last caveat, start with what ever you'll ride the most. I don't buy into the HT will make you better, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH... if you're not going to ride because you don't like the bike then it really doesn't matter. Like many things, finances will dictate.


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## torreyaz (Jul 17, 2011)

ak_cowboy said:


> ^
> Start with a hardtail.
> 
> Makes you learn how to ride better (read lines, use your legs, etc)
> ...


Totally agree.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

The bike industry has cooked up different specialist bikes for different riding styles. I think the specialist bikes are better at their particular styles, maybe, but it doesn't mean that generalist mountain bikes have stopped being able to do whatever. I'd like to have a screw around bike for one of the local skills parks, but that doesn't mean I don't go there with the 26" hardtail I have, high saddle and all. If I did lift-served, though, I'd probably rent something.

"XC" doesn't have to mean "can't handle a mountain bike."


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## mefistofeles (Jun 1, 2009)

Even though my first proper mountain bike was full suspension I would definitely recommend a hardtail for two reasons:interest and cost.

As a beginer you don't know if you'll be mountain biking in four to five months. If your interest level,especially your future interest level is uncertain, I would definitely recommend a hardtail because the cost of buying one and having it turn into a "hanger queen" is much lower than a the cost of having a full suspension "hanger queen."

Case in point. About four years ago my friend and I both bought folding bikes. As a I started to do more riding eventually I bought $2,600 cross bike and then went on to buy several mountain bikes. My friend on the other hand just sold his folder because he didn't tide it very often. The loss wasn't that great because he was able to recoup part of the money in garage sale and only spent $570 on the bike and various accesories. However if had spent $2,000 on a new full suspension mountain bike I don't think things would have worked out so well for him.


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## RealyNorth (Nov 15, 2011)

for me the hardtail is the jack of all trades, and i get the moust usage out of it


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## xycose (Nov 13, 2011)

very informative thread. have been wondering this same thing while looking at bikes for myself.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

It's a myth that you learn faster on a hardtail. A busted myth at that, at least IMO.

It's not really just about hardtail or FS, it's really about the sum of the bike's parts. With good tires and sturdy wheels and a stiff frame and fork, you can pick and ride almost any line you want on the trail, FS or HT. FS can offer more traction and control, and assist in absorbing big impacts, allowing you to go bigger, harder, and faster. For bigger obstacles and more technical sections, FS can be really forgiving if you don't have good technique and keep you in one piece.

Over 80% of my learning happened on a FS bike, despite riding on a hardtail for many years before getting a FS bike. I just didn't have the guts or confidence to attempt stuff on the hardtail. Once I got a good FS bike, I challenged everything and anything I challenged and turned out easy, became pretty much mastered--mastered in a way I could go back to a hardtail or rigid and ride it without difficulty and make other HT and rigid riders jealous.

The HT was cheaper, but I spent a bit to I upgrade it in a way that made it more DH bombing capable. Now that I've experienced a quality FS bike, I don't really see any reason to go back to a HT except if I wanted to place well in XC races. FS has come a very long way since the days 5-10 years ago, to the point that a "trail bike" is synonymous with a short-medium travel FS bike and HTs are more known for entry level and as serious XC race bikes.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

CarolinaLL6 said:


> Kind of parallel to riding style is what's your local terrain like? Smooth single track, rocky trails, etc. Love my HT and have no desire for a FS bike, but if I was out west with all of the rocks I may have gone FS.


We tend to have mostly singletrack, but with a mixture of roots, rocks, sand, and now that fall is upon us many leaves, which when wet tend to add their own twist to the trail. The singletrack isn't always smooth perse. The one I ride is relatively smooth, with a lot of small climbs/'decents, and within those have some parts that are erroded and have many roots and rocks in them to add to the difficulty. 
My first mountain bike had both a rigid fork and hardtail. So, when I bought my FS it was both a boost in comfort and confidence. On my hardtail when the trail got really "bumpy" I could barely see where I was going it was so bad. I have to hand it to people who were riding full rigid bikes then and even now. 
I guess it all boils down to preference and what makes you comfortable.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> It's a myth that you learn faster on a hardtail. A busted myth at that, at least IMO.
> 
> It's not really just about hardtail or FS, it's really about the sum of the bike's parts. With good tires and sturdy wheels and a stiff frame and fork, you can pick and ride almost any line you want on the trail, FS or HT. FS can offer more traction and control, and assist in absorbing big impacts, allowing you to go bigger, harder, and faster. For bigger obstacles and more technical sections, FS can be really forgiving if you don't have good technique and keep you in one piece.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you. I said in a post earlier that riding a full rigid bike, especially with a rigid fork really took a lot of fun out of the trail because it make the difficult parts that much more difficult. Some of the HT people thing because you have an FS, that you are losing power. Not so, with many of todays suspension components you can lock out or set the preload high enough so that you aren't mashing the shock on every hit. I don't think anyone makes them now, but I have a 97' Schwinn Homegrown Factory with the "SweetSpot Suspension" and if I stand it's like riding an HT anyway because the bottom bracket is in the rear swingarm. So, if I want the feel of a HT all I need to do is stand. I can't sprint just like on a HT. My bike is relatively light for an FS too, and climbs great!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

dhosinski said:


> I guess it all boils down to preference and what makes you comfortable.





dhosinski said:


> ... rigid fork really took a lot of fun out of the trail because it make the difficult parts that much more difficult.


Preferences...

some actually prefer being challenged to being comfortable  Like: where's the fun if all that is left to the rider is pedaling and operating the brakes. (I know I'm exaggerating now  )

Depending on where you ride, you might even find spots where a rigid bike is easier to ride over the obstacles.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

perttime said:


> Preferences...
> 
> some actually prefer being challenged to being comfortable  Like: where's the fun if all that is left to the rider is pedaling and operating the brakes. (I know I'm exaggerating now  )
> 
> Depending on where you ride, you might even find spots where a rigid bike is easier to ride over the obstacles.


I like a challenge believe me. I'm not asking for a Cadillac on the trail, but the trails I had ridden with the full rigid bike weren't good for me then. Even the smallest suspension was better than none. 
I don't see how a full rigid can go over anything easier necessarily? I mean only two tires contact the surface at any one time right? The only surface a rigid can be better is on a hard flat surface that is given the FS isn't locked out.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

dhosinski said:


> I don't see how a full rigid can go over anything easier necessarily?


I do 

- things where you need very sudden acceleration to get up and over something. Like when the trail forces you to go slowly, whatever bike, and you need to go over a larger rock. A HT or rigid bike has a slight edge there.

- when you are going down something pretty steep and it levels out suddenly at the bottom. Some seem to have problems with going OTB there because the suspension wants to tilt the bike forward. No such problems with a rigid bike. In some places like that I pick up the front wheel before the bottom, or make a small hop to land on both wheels, but in a couple of other spots I feel more secure with both tires on the ground.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

perttime said:


> I do
> 
> - things where you need very sudden acceleration to get up and over something. Like when the trail forces you to go slowly, whatever bike, and you need to go over a larger rock. A HT or rigid bike has a slight edge there.
> 
> - when you are going down something pretty steep and it levels out suddenly at the bottom. Some seem to have problems with going OTB there because the suspension wants to tilt the bike forward. No such problems with a rigid bike. In some places like that I pick up the front wheel before the bottom, or make a small hop to land on both wheels, but in a couple of other spots I feel more secure with both tires on the ground.


I see what you're saying now. Keep in mind that not all suspensions work the same. My suspension essentially locks out when I stand offering me the same advantage as a HT. The Gary Fisher Sugar series suspension operated so that it wouldn't be completely "full active" minimizing the opportunity for this. I think a downhill style suspension is very prone to this. So, I will agree there is an advantage there given that the HT is unforgiving in those situations.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

perttime said:


> Preferences...
> 
> some actually prefer being challenged to being comfortable  Like: where's the fun if all that is left to the rider is pedaling and operating the brakes. (I know I'm exaggerating now  )
> 
> Depending on where you ride, you might even find spots where a rigid bike is easier to ride over the obstacles.


Yea. I know what you mean. I demo'd a big long travel bike on a trail and was all excited about it going, OMG this bike makes everything so much easier. Another guy commented, where's the fun in that? I was more or less excited about how much more potential I could get, challenging gnarlier things. It was still fun. It felt like my riding skill increased by so much. If there weren't more challenging things nearby, I wouldn't bother looking into getting a longer travel FS bike. If I rode a smooth XC trail all the time, maybe I would get a rigid bike just to make it feel like a challenge. That all said, I still find my short travel FS bike to be the best compromise for my kind of riding.

The only things I can think of that I can imagine rigid bikes riding better on are pump tracks, paved bike paths, and BMX bike parks.

The examples you gave where a rigid would have an advantage can be more related to what I said in my earlier post, about a bike being more about the sum of its parts than rigid/hardtail vs FS. You might have big beefy tires, stiff frame and fork, stiff wheels and are you comparing that to a XC FS bike more inclined to make climbing easier? Actually, in those example, I think it's more about technique. I bet the FS bike rider that couldn't ride that feature without going OTB wouldn't be able to do it any better on the rigid and the rigid rider wouldn't be any worse doing it on the FS bike.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> The only things I can think of that I can imagine rigid bikes riding better on are pump tracks, paved bike paths, and BMX bike parks.
> 
> I bet the FS bike rider that couldn't ride that feature without going OTB wouldn't be able to do it any better on the rigid and the rigid rider wouldn't be any worse doing it on the FS bike.


Very well put...


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Well put Varaxis, +rep for you my man:thumbsup:

This all go back to the OP, FS is better for new riders, as you get more experience and skill you'd enjoy the challenge when riding Rigid bikes of tougher trail. 

I bought a DJ bike to practice front wheel loft move like Manual, and wheelie as it's design to be easier to pull off the moves and it works as advertise, I looped out the first few times I tried


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

perttime said:


> I do
> 
> - things where you need very sudden acceleration to get up and over something. Like when the trail forces you to go slowly, whatever bike, and you need to go over a larger rock. A HT or rigid bike has a slight edge there.
> 
> - when you are going down something pretty steep and it levels out suddenly at the bottom. Some seem to have problems with going OTB there because the suspension wants to tilt the bike forward. No such problems with a rigid bike. In some places like that I pick up the front wheel before the bottom, or make a small hop to land on both wheels, but in a couple of other spots I feel more secure with both tires on the ground.


The first time I rode my bike after putting a Judy XC (from previously being full rigid) on my GT hardtail (back in the mid-90's) I went OTB twice on a ride I had done several dozen times before. I wasn't used to the suspension compressing as you describe above.


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## Cormac (Aug 6, 2011)

I like my HT and have no real desire to buy a FS. When the time comes in a few years to build a bike, I'll probably just pick up a HT frame and build that. Of course my trails have no real crazy downhill sections or big air jumps. Just small climbs and moderate yet fun and mostly smooth downhill. Some roots and rocks thrown in for good measure, but nothing to hairy. So a HT is just fine! Helps with my climbing too and eventually I plan to slowly work into racing.


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## stangbang (Oct 28, 2010)

Just my experience:

I started mountain biking 1 yr ago on a new cannondale hardtail. I instantly fell in love. We ride mostly singletrack with rockgardens, roots, good dirt, rarely muddy. Lots of climbing and descending. I also ride platforms. Even tho I was always gettting bounced off the pedals in gnarly situations, I still thought the bike was great and it definately taught me better line selection and thought processes. 

Last month I bought a trek fuel ex8 full suspension. I was worried about the climbing, efficienc, etc. but really looking forward to the trails. Well all of the things I was woried about was for not. The bike climbs as well as my hardtail, maybe even better as a bunch of our climbs have bumps, rocks and roots, which the rear suspension soaks up. The trails are a no brainer. I am way faster and more efficient than I ever was on my hardtail. And I never get bounced off the pedals now. 

I let my bro ride my new bike this weekend, while I rode my hardtail, and I must say I really don't miss it (and I love that bike). 

My suggestion, get a good deal on a hardtail that will have some resale value, hone your skills for a few months or a year, and then sell it and get a good fs bike. Just my opinon and experience. No knock on hardtails or anything like that.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

stangbang said:


> Just my experience:
> 
> I started mountain biking 1 yr ago on a new cannondale hardtail. I instantly fell in love. We ride mostly singletrack with rockgardens, roots, good dirt, rarely muddy. Lots of climbing and descending. I also ride platforms. Even tho I was always gettting bounced off the pedals in gnarly situations, I still thought the bike was great and it definately taught me better line selection and thought processes.
> 
> ...


Great story! I like to hear things like this because my thoughts about FS are the same. I can't say that it really makes a difference what you start out on with the exception that cheap parts can take the thrill out of anything. I can't tell you the heartburn we had with cheap shifters and the inability to shift on climbs etc. Other issues one might endur on and FS is if the suspension isn't set up for their weight. Too much sag, or if the bike dips too much on a climb you might find yourself working very hard on the trail.

Great post!


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## traffic002 (Dec 16, 2008)

stangbang said:


> Just my experience:
> 
> I started mountain biking 1 yr ago on a new cannondale hardtail. I instantly fell in love. We ride mostly singletrack with rockgardens, roots, good dirt, rarely muddy. Lots of climbing and descending. I also ride platforms. Even tho I was always gettting bounced off the pedals in gnarly situations, I still thought the bike was great and it definately taught me better line selection and thought processes.
> 
> ...


Good stuff. Get a sturdy bike just to get you on the trail to see if this is something you'd like to pursue. Get some semblence of skill and fitness started. Then get an FS.

Whatever the bike, you want something that is fun and that will encourage you to ride again. I started on a HT, then I picked up a Cannondale Rush (FS) and had a blast. I rode more. The more I rode, the stronger I got. The stronger I got, the more I rode. The more I rode, the sharper my skills.

Then it got too easy. I was leaving my buddies behind. So I picked up a rigid single speed. Now that was a blast. Talk about learning new lines, pace, obstactle and hill clearance!! Wahooo!!. Then life caught up with me and riding an anti-social bike wasn't as much fun. I built my own long travel hardtail and sold my FS and rigid/SS bikes.

I started with a BMX background so I had some juvenile skills to draw from. I always recommend to those that want to get into the sport to borrow a bike or buy something with decent resale value and save up for a FS bike. That will allow them the technology to make up for some of their lack of skill and fitness. But they can be out there riding with their friends.

I think how, where and with whom you will be riding with will also impact your choice. You don't want to be on a HT if everyone else is riding a 4" marathon FS bikes. You will eventually wear out and fall behind. Conversely if everyone has HT, what's the point of showing up in a 6x6 susser...

But it all boils down to whatever will allow you to ride and have fun. Even though I am perfectly content with my steel HT with 5.5" of travel, I still have an eye out for a Blur LT someday for those epics...


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## sarfios (Nov 21, 2011)

well, depends on the price range


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## drivengsxr1000 (May 5, 2011)

skip all the nonsense and just get a FS if you dont like it you can always sell it and get a good amount for it, buy a hard tail and have some money left over, if your trying to sell it used a FS always sells faster and easier


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## drivengsxr1000 (May 5, 2011)

^^^ i tried that ^^^
ended up wasting 500$ on a hard tail that i was miserable on and getting a full suspension less than a month later... never looked back.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Hehe yesterday I went out to a different trail system I had been to once before as I was getting tired of my local system.

Wow I had forgotten that although it is single track, it is a lot bumpier than my local trail system. For whatever reason I really wasn't in the mood for all the bumps and having to get off my ass all the time. I think it was because I really didn't have any energy that day and felt lazy. I sure wish I had my FS with me though...even though it needs different tires and some other minor work.

Either way I do believe in this statement:


> My suggestion, get a good deal on a hardtail that will have some resale value, hone your skills for a few months or a year, and then sell it and get a good fs bike. Just my opinon and experience. No knock on hardtails or anything like that.


A hardtail will teach you better a better approach and develop skills regardless of what you end up riding down the line.


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## EZuphill (Nov 21, 2011)

I just love to see all th different opinions ....

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## homegrownbadassblue (Nov 21, 2011)

*Hardtail if your racing xc*

in my opinion, lighter and faster


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## LSUDJB13 (Dec 27, 2007)

Let me know how you like that Superfly AL i'm thinking about getting one in the next few months


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

joelzilla said:


> What would you recommend and why?


If funds are tight (under $1,000) I would definitely go for a HT. If you can swing over $1,000 (especially over $1,500), both are fine options.

I think you learn to ride whatever bike you are on. Riding an FS is _different _than riding a HT, not just easier. Yes, it is easier over the same rough terrain at the same speed and the same line, but as a result, you learn how to handle the bike at speed sooner.

I would say try both if you can, and get whichever exited you to ride.

I don't go with the notion that you should start on a HT any more than you should start with a rigid fork, or single speed, or circa 1995 1.95" tires.


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## fredb (Nov 22, 2011)

Go with a hardtail, you will have to do the work and not the bike and you will learn much, much, more.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

fredb said:


> Go with a hardtail, you will have to do the work and not the bike and you will learn much, much, more.


Okay, so I can just sit on an FS and it will do all of the riding for me???

Really?


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## fredb (Nov 22, 2011)

dhosinski said:


> Okay, so I can just sit on an FS and it will do all of the riding for me???
> 
> Really?


Yes, on technical trails a fs will help you keep your balance. when with a ht its much harder.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

homegrownbadassblue said:


> in my opinion, lighter and faster


No question HT are lighter. I do think the quality of the rider has more to do with how successful or how much faster they will ride when put on an FS vs HT though. Anyone just starting out can benefit from an FS, just as they would a HT if not more. I don't think they will really know until they are accomplished riders, and until they have ridden both frames to know which complements their riding style best. 
To tell someone what they should start out on is strictly personal opinion. The main factor to consider when purchasing your first bike is obviously cost. You get the most bang for your buck with a HT, unless you can find a closeout or something on an FS.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

fredb said:


> Yes, on technical trails a fs will help you keep your balance. when with a ht its much harder.


I don't think it's balance, I think it has a lot more to do with control and confidence.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

fredb said:


> Yes, on technical trails a fs will help you keep your balance. when with a ht its much harder.


Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. Let's base our comments on fact and not just personal opinion, especially in a forum where people who are trying to break into the sport are asking for the best advice.


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## fredb (Nov 22, 2011)

dhosinski said:


> Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. Let's base our comments on fact and not just personal opinion, especially in a forum where people who are trying to break into the sport are asking for the best advice.


compleatly agree.

I own a hardtail and i do everything with it, Eveything from Dj to DH, 2 weeks ago i went to do some Dh with a friend, i used his bike on a part of the trail and knoticed that i didnt have to use some of my HT habits ive developed ( which are good habits ).

I didnt have to stand on the pedals... i could sit down on less techincal parts. and i had way more control over the whole bike.

With my hardtail i have learnt how to ride well and not be a Noob.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

fredb said:


> compleatly agree.
> 
> I own a hardtail and i do everything with it, Eveything from Dj to DH, 2 weeks ago i went to do some Dh with a friend, i used his bike on a part of the trail and knoticed that i didnt have to use some of my HT habits ive developed ( which are good habits ).
> 
> ...


Based on you're comments, I suspect you are a noob


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

fredb said:


> compleatly agree.
> 
> I own a hardtail and i do everything with it, Eveything from Dj to DH, 2 weeks ago i went to do some Dh with a friend, i used his bike on a part of the trail and knoticed that i didnt have to use some of my HT habits ive developed ( which are good habits ).
> 
> ...


NICE!!!!:thumbsup:


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

To those suggesting that one should start with a HT because it teaches you better handling/line picking skills, I have a question: Why start with a HT instead of a fully rigid bike? 

The logic that is being used to recommend HT over FS would apply to recommending rigid over HT as well.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

kapusta said:


> To those suggesting that one should start with a HT because it teaches you better handling/line picking skills, I have a question: Why start with a HT instead of a fully rigid bike?
> 
> The logic that is being used to recommend HT over FS would apply to recommending rigid over HT as well.


Good point. I started out with a completely rigid bike and it took a lot of getting use to. My friends all had at the bare minimum Rock Shox forks with 25mm of travel, but they were praising them. The front fork alone does a great deal more for ones control. Adding the rear suspension definitely creates a more comfortable riding environment and boosts confidence.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

kapusta said:


> To those suggesting that one should start with a HT because it teaches you better handling/line picking skills, I have a question: Why start with a HT instead of a fully rigid bike?
> 
> The logic that is being used to recommend HT over FS would apply to recommending rigid over HT as well.


The best bike to start so you can "Maximized" the riding skills would be a Cross bike then move up to Rigid, then HT, from there you can go with SoftTail or an XC 4" FS before hitting the trail bike

Most riders would give up within a few weeks because of the learning curve but hey they would be doing more work than the bike for sure


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

I would of got a rigid except I have a jacked up wrist from the Army. 

Im looking of going fat bike in a few years though.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

kmac999 said:


> I think a hard-tail with a suspension fork is really middle ground between an FS bike and fully rigid. Truthfully I can ride my hard-tail everywhere I ride my FS bike, it's just more fun and faster on my FS bike. People can claim they are too hard core for a hard-tail but really, a skilled rider on a hard-tail can ride everything including DH. I raced a local dh on my AM hard-tail and my time beat a lot of people on full DH rigs. Too many people get wrapped up in what they are riding, it's really about rider skill and I personally believe I learned more riding my hard-tail with a suspension fork over an FS bike. I bought my wife a hard-tail this summer (Transition Trans Am) just to help her with her bike handling skills. She has an Intense 5.5 and she was struggling learning a few moves. A month on the hard-tail and the next time on her 5.5 and she was flying.
> 
> That's my personal experience, others may disagree.


I think that for each his own. One thing that I'm very doubtfull would be the suspension posts, but you feel otherwise.

What I doubt about that is that the suspension would only work when you're seated, and that means climbing, and that cushy won't do any benefit of what FS work for. Better traction and control, and a suspension post won't help for that, it will only work for your back. When you're descending, you should be standing, and that also, the suspension post won't help.

Regarding HT vs FS, I don't think that it is a given thing that a HT will make you a better rider, it depends on one. I think that for some riders, having a FS will make it more confortable and they would ride more on a FS than a HT. It just depends on what a person wants to do on a bike, not everybody want to do long mileage or be able to pick lines and such, some just like traveling to different places and have fun. Maybe a HT is better for that scenario. I also started with a HT, but moved to a FS when I saw that I really was having fun and wanted to move on.


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## limzhong (Nov 2, 2011)

i think it depends heavily on your style of riding.

if you are purely commuting on roads and pavement, hardtail definitely.

beginner off-roader but not really into speed, just leisurely enjoying scenery, FS

beginner off-roader but concerned with speed, hardtail first then decide from there.

the ht might train your fundamentals better than a more forgiving FS initially, and starting out with a FS may cause you to be complacent. also, a ht will help you appreciate and pinpoint and perhaps even help you understand the mechanics of the bicycle better. if there is something running subpar on a FS, the cause is typically harder to pinpoint than on a FS.

my personal opinion is 75% hardtail first, because i agree that the HT will make a more skill-ed biker initially, which might help you appreciate the comfort and fogivingness of a FS ride later on. besides, if you are just starting out and are not very clear on maintenenace, maybe a more minimalistic HT would be a better choice, as your experience and passion grows, you may upgrade to a FS for offroad duties, and "relegate" your older HT for flatter terrain duties.

cheers


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

If you are purely commuting on roads and pavement you should DEFINITELY not get a mountain bike. You should get a bike that is at its best on pavement, instead.

A rigid bike is great for a somewhat skilled rider who finds that the trails are too easy when riding a squishy bike.


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## notrandom (Nov 23, 2011)

I've read that full suspension is just added weight, and makes it harder to go uphill.


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## limzhong (Nov 2, 2011)

sorry i stand corrected - MOSTLY* (not purely) on pavements

haha cheers


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

notrandom said:


> I've read that full suspension is just added weight, and makes it harder to go uphill.


Don't believe everything you read.

Well, actually... having more than one gear is also just added weight and makes you more slow on the uphills


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

notrandom said:


> I've read that full suspension is just added weight, and makes it harder to go uphill.


There are pros and cons to FS on climbing. 
One of the pros is that while you are pedaling if you have a "fully active suspension (works all of the time) then while the suspension is compressing the rear tire is being forced into the ground giving you better traction. Some suspension components offer the option to "lock out" and thereby give you the characteristics of a HT. On some front forks you can activate a mode where the front fork compresses on the hits and doesn't return angling the bike so it favors climbing but still offers a small amount of travel.

The cons: Weight is obviously 1, 2nd I have a SweetSpot suspension and found with the coil over sprung shock that my bike would pogo while climbing causing my knees to be higher and requiring me to push much harder and make the climb more difficult. I don't believe anyone makes this design anymore? Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I have my fork and rear shock dialed up so that they aren't too mushy so that I lose power when climbing, but when I hit bumps they take up to hard hits and the high frequency bumps.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

kapusta said:


> To those suggesting that one should start with a HT because it teaches you better handling/line picking skills, I have a question: Why start with a HT instead of a fully rigid bike?
> 
> The logic that is being used to recommend HT over FS would apply to recommending rigid over HT as well.


Because I don't feel as if you needed rigid up front, however my FS is a little too cushy and doesn't tell me enough of what is going on for me to learn from. The HT still allows me to feel out the trail and learn how to deal with stuff better.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

perttime said:


> Don't believe everything you read.
> 
> Well, actually... having more than one gear is also just added weight and makes you more slow on the uphills


For what it is worth, my 1999 Spec' FSR Comp weighs 30lbs, and my 2011 Hardrock Disc weighs 32lbs. As for climbing, I really haven't been able to tell which one is better, though I could say the FSR is better as it will roll over stuff smoother allowing me to apply power more consistently.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

zephxiii said:


> Because I don't feel as if you needed rigid up front, however my FS is a little too cushy and doesn't tell me enough of what is going on for me to learn from. The HT still allows me to feel out the trail and learn how to deal with stuff better.


I gather your FS is set up for long decents and big hits? I think the other post was suggesting that a majority of the people who have HT's also have front suspension. Given that, they don't truly have a rigid bike which would be an entirely different learning curve altogether. 
No one can argue that. I have a XC FS bike, with short travel 3.75". Normally I stand over rough terrain which on my bike locks out the suspension in the back providing the feel of a HT for all intensive purposes. 
There's no question you will take a different line with an FS once you see how well the FS handles the rough areas as compared to taking the same line with a HT. Again, it doesn't matter which bike you buy, you tailor your riding to what you can handle. Riding an FS allows you to be more agressive over rough terrain. If an FS is heavier and people see that as a negative, then so be it. Not everyone here intends to race or do time trials everytime they ride. 
Some buy FS bikes for medical reasons, some for comfort. A lot of riders buy HT's because they like the response the bike gives them. I think before someone dismisses the thought of having an FS when they haven't ridden one is cynical. I know you have one and like I said, maybe you should explain how your bike is set up. Do you do downhilling, mostly XC? Because the bike setup makes a difference too...


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

notrandom said:


> I've read that full suspension is just added weight, and makes it harder to go uphill.


It depends on the bike, terrain and user preference. On some climbs, a FS will outclimb a HT, and for some downhills, maybe a HT could be better than a FS. Suspension has improved a lot over the years, specially the rear suspension design and shocks. A good FS will make the rear tire follow the terrain better because it makes the rear tire stick to the ground and not bounce around, so if the climb is technical or has not that good traction (like having gravel, rocks) a FS might give you better traction than a HT. Over smooth hardpack, yes, the HT will probably be better.

Another benefit of FS is that it won't tire your back up as much over long rides, so you have more energy to continue. It will very likely make your riding more smooth. I think that this is a good reason to get a beginner on a FS, so that they can ride longer.

But, a good FS is not that cheap. So, most of us when we start(ed) don't want to invest much in a bike for several reasons. One is that we think bikes should be cheap, and when we see a bike that has all the bells and whistles (at least that we think has all the bells and whistles), and ask for the price, we are astounded. Another reason is that we don't know if we will like the sport or not, so why spent our money on a thing that probably we would dump it after the first ride. Another is that someone comes with the idea that a FS is just heavy and not useful.

I don't think that a HT is bad to start, or that a FS is bad, it's just what one wants to do. Probably a HT will help improve one's skills IF they want to do that and actually try to learn new things. But, for some others, they just want to go out to nature and see scenery, and if they have a good budget, I would suggest a FS, it will make it easier.

About learning, I really think it's more of what the rider is interested and that he/she tries to go to learning clinics and group rides and practice than the type of bike. A HT will not teach someone just because it's harder, it will just limit his lines, and if the user doesn't learn how to ride and read the terrain, it will just make him scarier.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

My bike isn't for DH or anything like that (geometry), it is just older and there isn't a lot of travel but it may be a lil more cushy though (older spring/shock) I don't find the standup-hammer bob to be that bad and it still climbs awesome (sometimes feeling better than the HT). Actually i've always gotten some impression that the bike felt more efficient at power delivery...might be because of tires (both were supposed to be fast rolling)..or component level...and this includes hauling ass on paved bike paths too. 

The thing is when I was just starting out a couple of months ago, trail riding was a whole new thing to me and I felt pretty "unknowing" on how to hit the trails when I was going around them. Keep in mind that I started on a wallyworld Schwinn FS, took it back, got a Hardrock...then not long after got the 99 FSR Comp. 

I didn't really start hitting the trails until after I got the FSR (I was doing a lot of urban riding). Once I really got into the trails I would actually go back and forth between each bike. 

Riding FS was definitely a different beast. In the end though what I found was that I learned far far more on the HT due to the responsiveness and feedback the HT was able to provide me which ended up teaching me how to ride the trails better. The problem with the FSR is that the full suspension basically deadened that feeback. There was a time where I actually wanted to take the HT out more just because of this and wanted to take it out as it felt like I was gaining more from it. 

Now I am finding myself bombing through downhill rough rooty sections way faster on the HT before as I've found the perfect stance to let the bike just rock back and forth as it bombs through it. 

Yes a FS is a little nicer in this situation as it will soften it, keep my feet a lil more stable on the pedals...but it just seems fun on the HT! It also makes climbing a little better by smoothing out roots etc.

The other thing I enjoy about FS is how i can sit on my ass more on annoyingly bumpy trails....I found that this also makes me lazier though. 

I really enjoy both worlds, it's just that I found a little more enlightenment and perspective on the HT.

Ya must also realize that I am a very dynamic person. I am not someone that is going to be like "ohhh I never touch my HT (or 26er) after going FS (or 29er). I really enjoy the experience and difference of all the different setups (that are practical) and love swapping between them just to change it up (I don't have a 29er yet).


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

mimi1885 said:


> The best bike to start so you can "Maximized" the riding skills would be a Cross bike then move up to Rigid, then HT, from there you can go with SoftTail or an XC 4" FS before hitting the trail bike
> 
> Most riders would give up within a few weeks because of the learning curve but hey they would be doing more work than the bike for sure


I'd been riding for a few years before I did my first 'cross conversion. It was still not easy to ride off-road. I'm slower on trails on my current, purpose-built 'cross bike than my hardtail, except for one very boring, fairly steep, sustained climb that I visit whenever I ride in one of my spots. And if there were things I needed to lift the front wheel over... well, I can do that, but it's a lot harder, and the obstacle had better be smaller. That's why I think people who haven't been riding off-road and think it's a one-bike solution should try it before they tell others the same. 

And, this is why I think people should just get whatever bike makes them the most happy. For some people, FS bikes are training tools before they go back to hardtails. For others, hardtails are training tools to make them smoother on FS bikes. Still others don't want to drag around some complicated equipment that's actually designed to absorb and dissipate energy, and any bike with suspension is just a training tool. Who's right?

Ultimately, I think people are probably happiest getting the bike that fits the kind of riding they want to do. It's already a good training tool.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'd been riding for a few years before I did my first 'cross conversion. It was still not easy to ride off-road. I'm slower on trails on my current, purpose-built 'cross bike than my hardtail, except for one very boring, fairly steep, sustained climb that I visit whenever I ride in one of my spots. And if there were things I needed to lift the front wheel over... well, I can do that, but it's a lot harder, and the obstacle had better be smaller. That's why I think people who haven't been riding off-road and think it's a one-bike solution should try it before they tell others the same.
> 
> And, this is why I think people should just get whatever bike makes them the most happy. For some people, FS bikes are training tools before they go back to hardtails. For others, hardtails are training tools to make them smoother on FS bikes. Still others don't want to drag around some complicated equipment that's actually designed to absorb and dissipate energy, and any bike with suspension is just a training tool. Who's right?
> 
> Ultimately, I think people are probably happiest getting the bike that fits the kind of riding they want to do. It's already a good training tool.


BEST POST YET!:thumbsup:


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

I am in the phase of challenging myself with drop offs...and have been really enjoying it so far.

i'm on a entry level 26 hard tail right now...and was wondering how much difference a full suspension bike would make...as far as absorbing landings. FS worth it for drop offs...or not (big difference)???

i am not heavy...130 lbs...but i don't think the factory suntour XCM fork will not survive all the way thorugh 2012.
have been wondering if a FS bike would be better for me....don't know where i'll get the $$ from though...heh


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## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

less than 140mm suspension, then might as will go hardtail, light steel, if you can afford it
i'm guessiing that a "quality" 140+mm bike costs over $2000?


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Urbansniper said:


> I am in the phase of challenging myself with drop offs...and have been really enjoying it so far.
> 
> i'm on a entry level 26 hard tail right now...and was wondering how much difference a full suspension bike would make...as far as absorbing landings. FS worth it for drop offs...or not (big difference)???
> 
> ...


If' you're doing drops there's no doubt that an FS with long travel would be your best bet. If you plan on doing more (i.e. both downhills, drops, and cross country) then you might consider a shorter travel rear suspension. I think I would focus on a very good front fork, with a dual brace maybe by FOX or Marzocchi that offers a lot of adjustment on the compression and rebound dampening and a lot of travel. Oil sprung will probably takes the hits better than air sprung forks but they are also heavier. 
If you plan on racing XC this setup will not work for you.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

dhosinski said:


> If' you're doing drops there's no doubt that an FS with long travel would be your best bet. If you plan on doing more (i.e. both downhills, drops, and cross country) then you might consider a shorter travel rear suspension. I think I would focus on a very good front fork, with a dual brace maybe by FOX or Marzocchi that offers a lot of adjustment on the compression and rebound dampening and a lot of travel. Oil sprung will probably takes the hits better than air sprung forks but they are also heavier.
> If you plan on racing XC this setup will not work for you.
> 
> Good Luck with whatever you decide.


thanks for the information:thumbsup:
better start saving my pennies...


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Yea a FS is definitely going to dampen the *SHOCK* of landing after a drop on a hardtail. Hell it should be easier on components too.


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## Urbansniper (Jun 12, 2011)

zephxiii said:


> Yea a FS is definitely going to dampen the *SHOCK* of landing after a drop on a hardtail. Hell it should be easier on components too.


the drop offs i started working on are small...but anything to soften the landing; i will appreciate (especially as i add more height).
the first time i tried the below drop off...my rear tire hit the exposed tree root; it caused quite a bit of shock...as you would say. made sure to speed up and clear it, on my following attempts....heh


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Urbansniper said:


> I am in the phase of challenging myself with drop offs...and have been really enjoying it so far.
> 
> i'm on a entry level 26 hard tail right now...and was wondering how much difference a full suspension bike would make...as far as absorbing landings. FS worth it for drop offs...or not (big difference)???
> 
> ...


Maybe it's that the biggest things I jump off of are cornices, skiing, but I don't actually see suspension as being for drop offs per se.

Suspension is rated in millimeters. Maybe because 5.5 is a smaller number than 140. But they're equal, just different units of measurement.

Not that it's not a lot of travel, but think about how long your legs are. Most of us have a lot more than 5.5" of suspension travel before we even get on a bike.

When people on long-travel bikes really push the envelope, the role of the suspension is to keep the wheels tracking. They still do all the riding, and a lot of work to absorb hits and keep the bike under control. Watch some DH videos and pay attention to the riders' hips. (Also to how awesome the fast guys are.) While you're at it, go find Danny MacAskill's latest. What he's doing is a different animal from trail riding, but you can see what he's doing to absorb some of the bigger hits.

Drop your seat post and go. Do think about a fork that doesn't suck, though.


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## ak_cowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Ultimately, I think people are probably happiest getting the bike that fits the kind of riding they want to do. It's already a good training tool.


But what about beginners who don't know what kind of riding they want to do?

That's the only reason I said hardtail. It makes you appreciate FS more and is cheaper to get into the sport, and they can be set up for any kind of riding.


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## pacing08 (Jan 15, 2008)

*Bored at work and was thinking HT (have no idea why)*

After reading through this thread I began to miss my HT which was stolen. Now I want to buy another HT to mix the ride experience up every now and then. I started on a HT and have no regrets. For me it was not just about picking lines but also learning how to absorb with my legs and body and how to adjust/react to bumps etc. I even began to do some mediocre drops with my HT(nothing bigger than 4 feet and of coarse not landing flat but on the descent.) But my FS is definitely my go to bike for the majority of my riding and an HT will never be that go to bike again. FS is just way more fun and comfy plus I like to ride hard. Having my HT back would be nice though.

For the noobs who end up reading this thread, get an entry level HT first. Why? Primary answer: You don't know if you will end up pursuing the sport (so why invest in FS) and if you do what riding style do you like. You can get FS XC bikes these days or do you want a FS AM bike? You'll have to bike for a few months to see what you are more into. 2nd reason: My opion only of course, you learn to react and absorb without using the rear suspension thus learning to truly handle the bike (that was more important to me than picking lines).

Don't even think Rigid...Do this and you may end up hating the sport without giving it a fair shot.


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## dwinski (May 15, 2012)

Hi to all, pardon me for being a newbie just wanted to ask the same question Hardtail or Full Sus? 

First time I rode a friend's mountain bike (used to ride a bmx when I was a kid) mostly on rough roads and small trails, I loved it, wanted to do a lot more so decided to buy one. Problem with that borrowed bike, it caused my buttock to feel so much pain so I told myself I must buy a full sus although costlier and I can't find enough extra small sizes (I am only 5' 2" tall) unlike the hardtails, I might feel more comfortable.

Do I really need a full sus or do I just need a good saddle on a hardtail bike which would minimize the pain in my butt? I intend to ride in the trails during weekends in my province but I also want to join some of my friends during weekdays to roam around the city after office hours in their hardtail bikes . 

Basically I need an all-around and very flexible mountain bike but I am more inclined in buying a full sus with carbon fiber frame so I can easily catch up with my friends. Is it ok to ride a full sus while roaming around the city mostly on a flat but sometime rough roads?

Sorry, I am really confused whether a full sus or a hardtail mountain bike is really the ideal bike for me? Thanks!


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## Barn Barn (Apr 3, 2012)

Any MTB is a good remedy for a pain in the butt. For instance sometimes my wife can be a pain in the butt, I go and ride my mountain bike and not so bad. At times my kid can be a pain in the butt, same solution, my job.....my bills..... so on and so fourth. Any way I am a big fan of FS now. But they all work and are a blast to pedal.


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

dwinski said:


> Hi to all, pardon me for being a newbie just wanted to ask the same question Hardtail or Full Sus?
> 
> First time I rode a friend's mountain bike (used to ride a bmx when I was a kid) mostly on rough roads and small trails, I loved it, wanted to do a lot more so decided to buy one. Problem with that borrowed bike, it caused my buttock to feel so much pain so I told myself I must buy a full sus although costlier and I can't find enough extra small sizes (I am only 5' 2" tall) unlike the hardtails, I might feel more comfortable.
> 
> ...


The saddle is your issue. A saddle that isn't right for your sit bones is going to be an issue no matter what suspension the bike has.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

GOTA said:


> The saddle is your issue. A saddle that isn't right for your sit bones is going to be an issue no matter what suspension the bike has.


Could be both the saddle and his ass and whatever ass padding he might or might not be using. Could be something else. Can't really declare the issue without knowing all the variables. It's normal for a beginner, who's never been on a bike saddle for years, to get saddle sore in maybe an hour or two.

I can categorize cycling ass pain symptoms into 2 groups. There's chafing, which is damage to the surface of the skin. The skin suffers from abrasions and is painful even to the lightest touch--this pain is persistent even off the bike. Then there's saddle sore, which is the inner flesh getting tenderized and becoming extra sensitive. There's only pain if you sit in a saddle with significant pressure on the inside of your sit bones, but none if you sit on a chair. Saddle sore goes away overnight. Chafing damage is awful... you don't ever want to suffer from it. It will cause you discomfort and maybe some misery for days.

Whether you have FS or HT shouldn't make much of a diff, since you should be out of the saddle and a tire inflated to no more than 40 psi, assuming you're running tires with a width of 1.9 to 2.5 and you weigh under 300 lbs, should take care of the smaller bumps.

A good pair of riding shorts helps with chafing. To prevent saddle sore, you basically need to toughen your ass. It takes quite a bit of riding to build up the endurance to go hours in the saddle without soreness. You need to keep riding until it's sore and let it heal and repeat. It will get tougher after healing and you might gain 20 minutes of extra saddle endurance the next time you ride a similar "epic". You should be able to get it over 3 hours within a season. Some riding shorts help with saddle sore, but most just focus on minimizing chafing. The ones that does help with saddle sore, might alter your preference of what saddle you like and may compromise its anti-chafing performance.

A good saddle, made to fit the contour of your sit bones better, helps spread the weight out better, so your weight isn't focus in a small area around your sit bones.

Less weight being on the saddle helps a load too. Carrying a ton in a backpack or carrying a spare tire in your gut puts more pressure on your ass, so pack lighter and don't fill up your hydration bladder to full if you don't need to.

Personally, I get saddle sore more from riding on the asphalt, basically since i'm in the saddle more. I used to ride to and from the trailhead and I'd turn back as soon as my ass started hurting and the ride back on the road was painful at times. The more time you spend out of the saddle, the longer you'll go without saddle sore. It's more fun riding out of the saddle anyways--it's not a bad idea to work on your endurance out of the saddle too.


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## ryencool (Apr 20, 2012)

good read


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## dwinski (May 15, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> Could be both the saddle and his ass and whatever ass padding he might or might not be using. Could be something else. Can't really declare the issue without knowing all the variables. It's normal for a beginner, who's never been on a bike saddle for years, to get saddle sore in maybe an hour or two.
> 
> I can categorize cycling ass pain symptoms into 2 groups. There's chafing, which is damage to the surface of the skin. The skin suffers from abrasions and is painful even to the lightest touch--this pain is persistent even off the bike. Then there's saddle sore, which is the inner flesh getting tenderized and becoming extra sensitive. There's only pain if you sit in a saddle with significant pressure on the inside of your sit bones, but none if you sit on a chair. Saddle sore goes away overnight. Chafing damage is awful... you don't ever want to suffer from it. It will cause you discomfort and maybe some misery for days.
> 
> ...


Great input, my problem I believe is more of the saddle sore rather than the chafing and as suggested better choice of saddle and some more regular practice might solve it. I'll do that.

Now on the issue of a more "all-around and flexible mountain bike" which is more accurate for me between the two statements:

"Buy a full sus because it is more durable, comfortable and fun in the almost every condition. In addition, one can always lock out the suspension when travelling along flat roads with minor bumps or humps. It's also better to buy a carbon fiber full sus frame and other accessories to compensate for the weight and gain more speed in pedaling. It could also be like buying a 4 x 4 truck ready for all eventualities compared to a simple 4 x 2, although most of the time the 4 x 4 functionality is not always used. It could be cheaper to buy a more expensive carbon fiber full sus now rather than buying a carbon fiber hardtail instead then realizing I want/need a full sus so i'll be buying a second bike (this is what I really don't want to happen because for sure, the other bike would become idle and useless)." Or;

"Stick with buying a carbon fiber hardtail. Its advantages of being more simple, faster and more efficient, easier to maintain, and costs less would simply outweigh the "little" discomfort" and possibly "lesser reliability" you might have if traveling along rough terrains." Choose the most appropriate saddle to somehow lessen the "little" discomfort".

Some important inputs for consideration:

Schedule and areas of Biking: 2-3 times Mondays to Fridays mostly on flat but sometime rough (with humps and pot holes) roads. 1-2 times Saturdays and Sundays in the province with rougher terrains in non-concrete/non-asphalt roads and sometime would be doing single track trails.

In addition, I like speed when travelling both on flat and rough terrains but I am almost quite sure I would not do big jumps so I think I would not be needing those bikes with longer suspension travel (if I buy a full sus).

What do you think guys, carbon fiber full sus or carbon fiber hardtail is really best for me? Thanks again for your replies.


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## dwinski (May 15, 2012)

vftr said:


> Any MTB is a good remedy for a pain in the butt. For instance sometimes my wife can be a pain in the butt, I go and ride my mountain bike and not so bad. At times my kid can be a pain in the butt, same solution, my job.....my bills..... so on and so fourth. Any way I am a big fan of FS now. But they all work and are a blast to pedal.


I'll take note of this solution, aside from my wife causing a real pain in the ass, sometimes my in-laws also share some more of the pain I experienced


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## anthonyk (Feb 15, 2012)

dwinski said:


> Schedule and areas of Biking: 2-3 times Mondays to Fridays mostly on flat but sometime rough (with humps and pot holes) roads. 1-2 times Saturdays and Sundays in the province with rougher terrains in non-concrete/non-asphalt roads and sometime would be doing single track trails.
> 
> In addition, I like speed when travelling both on flat and rough terrains but I am almost quite sure I would not do big jumps so I think I would not be needing those bikes with longer suspension travel (if I buy a full sus).
> 
> What do you think guys, carbon fiber full sus or carbon fiber hardtail is really best for me? Thanks again for your replies.


Full suspension seems like overkill for that type of riding. I'd go hardtail, personally.

Also, if that 2-3 times per week road riding involves locking your bike somewhere and leaving it, you may want to reconsider the nice carbon bike for those days. It may be that a nice FS bike for the weekends and a beater hardtail for the week is what you need.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

dwinski - if you can afford a carbon fiber FS, you can afford two more modest bikes that are appropriate for what you're doing.

For road riding, get a road bike.

For mountain biking, get a mountain bike.



It sounds like you're going off-road less than once a week. I have some road bikes and a mountain bike, and while I still see myself as a mountain biker first, it's too much of a pain in the butt for me to get to trails mid-week lately, so I don't. Riding a mountain bike on the road sucks. At least, once you know what the alternative is like. Road bikes aren't made of blown glass. You can ride them through potholes, up and down curbs, up and down modest stair sets, on mellow singletrack... it's really sustained off-road climbing and descending that pushes the level of need to a mountain bike, although they may still be more fun on flat to rolling singletrack. EDIT: also, nice to have a MTB for riding fire roads, it takes quite a lot of attention with a road bike. Although 'cross bikes are good for this...

If your technique doesn't suck, you don't need rear suspension. If your technique does suck, it probably won't help enough anyway. No change in saddle, IMO.

Don't worry so much about the frame material. Most good designs are now available in both aluminum and carbon, and the tire pressure makes a lot more difference. So if you have to downgrade from a badass carbon FS to a badass aluminum FS... meh.

If you're just riding the roads to get in shape, you don't need an expensive road bike. The last important change in technology happened in 1992, give or take, so if you get one that fits you well, a few hundred dollars on a nice older model is enough. That leaves you with most of your budget intact for the MTB. As a side benefit, you won't thrash the tires on asphalt, or have to mess around with swapping back and forth whenever you want to go mountain biking, and when one of the bikes is in the shop, you won't be grounded.


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## joshhan (Apr 1, 2011)

I got a free bike from my coworker last spring. I'm a noob. It's really old but it's a FS. Needless to say, FS bikes from close to 20 years ago are light years away from what we have now. But it got me into mountain biking and back into riding bikes in general.

So because of a so-so experience with an old FS for a few months, I bought a new 29er HT. Went riding with some friends and got jealous of how they were able to go faster down the techy spots so I bought a used 2011 FS 26 inch. After riding a bit more and a whole bunch of flats, I decided to go tubeless on the FS. After going tubeless on the FS 26, I said why not go tubeless on the 29er HT? Probably much better benefits for that bike. After going tubeless, I can say I love riding the 29er HT again. 

Just this past week, I bought a rigid SS off of craigslist. Looking forward to trying that out on the local trail.

So, in conclusion, I would say:
Buy a hardtail 29er with tubeless for being able to run lower pressure. You can probably get a sweet, plush fork. Then, if budget allows, you can move on to a full suspension (26/29). And then graduate to a rigid singlespeed. 

Man, I have too many bikes.


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## dwinski (May 15, 2012)

Gosh, I am really inexperienced in these things, all the while I thought I could have an "all-round" and "very flexible" single bike but I seem to agree that it is almost inevitable for me to have at least two bikes for this hobby. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not that rich buying a full sus or a hardtail, carbon fiber built bike at an instant. Actually I plan to build a bike in a span of 2-3 months (carbon fiber full sus or hardtail) piece by piece, frame first, then fork, group set, wheel set and finally other accessories. My philosophy is that even though it would turn out to be more expensive for as long as I enjoy using it at least 3 times a week, it is efficient for the place where I am going to use it and plus factor is a "little show off" or bling bling to some friends, then the price to me would be fully justified. 

A confession to make, I am not that tall a man, quite short actually around 5'2" so a road bike or a 29er is not that ideal options for me personally. I already made a month old of research looking for a carbon fiber full sus frame with low stand-over height and slanting top tube and only two frames topped my list namely: Santa Cruz Blur TRc or Ibis Mojo 140 HD. For the hardtail carbon frame it is a toss between Ibis Tranny and On one 456. Now comes another problem, no budget for both (full sus and hardtail at the same time) actually, only one at a time or should I more precisely say, only one for quite a long time. Who knows if I love using one type of these bikes, might not pursue buying the other one anymore. So which is which? 

Many thanks again.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You know you're going to get hosed buying your bike a piece at a time.

So why do it?

Leave CF to people who don't know what else to do with their money. (Hopefully that will be me in about a year.  But objective differences in performance are close to non-existent.)

Those really big bikes are going to be major overkill for only going on singletrack every now and then, and you'll hate 'em on the road. Look at XC bikes. Most of us start on those, and a lot of people are quite happy to stick with them.

If you can't afford the bike now, either buy used or start putting your money in a savings account. At least let it accrue a little interest, and take advantage of the better pricing on complete bikes when you're ready to buy.

One of the problems with mountain biking is that it thrashes equipment. Nice frames tend to last, but with everything else, you should buy within your means. There's a saying, "Don't race what you can't replace," and it also applies to taking things off-road.

I broke my last derailleur. Hardly an exceptional experience. My particular model is online for about $60, after shipping, although I got a better price. (Disclaimer here, I have two jerseys with that shop's name on 'em.) It's a part that can easily cost over $200, but since it's also easily broken by the right kind of fall, I'd just as soon not do that. Too much money relative to what I make. Etc.


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## dwinski (May 15, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You know you're going to get hosed buying your bike a piece at a time.
> 
> So why do it?
> 
> ...


You know what, after more than two months of extensive researching, canvassing and planning, you just opened my mind to a whole new perspective in so far as mountain biking is concerned. I guess I have to put my head down and go back to the drawing boards all over again so to speak.

Thanks for the advise and tips Bro., very much appreciated.


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## Cutestuffies (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello all,

I've been reading the posts and they have been very informative. However, I'm more confused than ever. I am just getting back to riding from a 10 year hiatus (since high school). I wasn't a seasoned rider, but enjoyed it very much.

A couple of issues though:

1. I'm 5 foot nothing!
2. I am debating between a HT and a FS. I am looking for either the Myka HT series, the Anthem 4W and the Myka FSR. (Again, I'm limited due to number 1).
3. I am riding on my own, my SO isn't interested at this point. That's not a big deal, but a point of interest since I see many people discussing riding with their lady 
4. *In addition to riding trails (in Northern Jersey)*, I am going to use the bike 1-2 times a week for a 3.8 mile commute each way to school -- not a long distance but in a city atmosphere.

So my questions, which type of bike?! I'd like to purchase within the next few weeks, so I"d love some help!

Thanks again all!:idea:


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## Call_me_Tom (May 26, 2008)

Cutestuffies said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been reading the posts and they have been very informative. However, I'm more confused than ever. I am just getting back to riding from a 10 year hiatus (since high school). I wasn't a seasoned rider, but enjoyed it very much.
> 
> ...


Since I posted in this thread I've gone back to FS but instill have my HT. Like has been previously stated, you'll get more bang for you buck starting on a HT.

I do not suggest a bike worth over $400 for school. School is a mega for bike thieves.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Cutestuffies said:


> 4. I am going to use the bike 1-2 times a week for a 3.8 mile commute each way to school -- not a long distance but in a city atmosphere.


For this, get a cheap cruiser. A children's model if you have to. Look for used bikes in your area.


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## kawashark (Aug 28, 2010)

Good point. Once you have refined your riding skills a FS may allow you to spend more time in the saddle and conserve energy, but you have to know how to pick your line for the least amount of suspension travel and therefore lost energy.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I truly believe in owning and appreciating both HT and FS 

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Cutestuffies said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been reading the posts and they have been very informative. However, I'm more confused than ever. I am just getting back to riding from a 10 year hiatus (since high school). I wasn't a seasoned rider, but enjoyed it very much.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, bikes (especially a nice bike like you are looking at) at school are a magnet for thieves and vandals, as mentioned above. Unless you have a *VERY* secure location to store the bike, I would look for a craigslist beater (that costs less than $100) for commuting to school. Think UGLY, but functional.

As for a trail bike, I would need more information about you, the terrain you'll be riding, the intensity of your rides, difficulty, and budget.

Being 5'0" may have some advantages in that you can find some smokin' deals on small and extra small bikes. And, I think you may have more to choose from than you might believe.


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## Cutestuffies (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm sorry my post was a bit ambiguous. I will be riding trails but in addition riding 1-2 times a week to school, definitely NOT only riding a MTB to school only. 

I wouldn't spend 2k on a bike that is only for road travel. 

Thanks though!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Cutestuffies said:


> I will be riding trails but in addition riding 1-2 times a week to school, definitely NOT only riding a MTB to school only.


It hought that might be the case.

Get a nice MTB for the trails AND get an expendable beater for going to school.


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## mg2380 (Nov 8, 2011)

Quick question for you guys. I get a pretty steep discount on Diamondbacks through work, and I can’t decide what bike to get (hardtail or full suspension)… I’m looking at the Overdrive Pro, & the Sortie Comp. Do I save the extra $300 and stick with the Overdrive? Or say “screw it” and get the Sortie? Decisions decisions… Also, this is my first bike in over 15 years. So part of me thinks I should ride a hardtail until I get back into the swing of things. Your insight would be great appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## bob13bob (Jun 22, 2009)

What are the forks on this?

sent from one of my 4 gold leafed iphone4s's


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## mg2380 (Nov 8, 2011)

Overdrive Pro: FOX 32 FLOAT CTD 29" 100mm travel, open cartridge, ext. rebound and lock out, QR15 thru axle, butted Alloy steerer, 32mm aluminum stanchions

Sorite Comp: Fox 32 FLoat CTD Air, 140mm travel, open cartridge, with ext. rebound knob, 32mm Easton aluminum stanchions, magnesium lowers


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

mg2380 said:


> Quick question for you guys. I get a pretty steep discount on Diamondbacks through work, and I can't decide what bike to get (hardtail or full suspension)&#8230; I'm looking at the Overdrive Pro, & the Sortie Comp. Do I save the extra $300 and stick with the Overdrive? Or say "screw it" and get the Sortie? Decisions decisions&#8230; Also, this is my first bike in over 15 years. So part of me thinks I should ride a hardtail until I get back into the swing of things. Your insight would be great appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


Can you demo?

If you keep the bike five years, $300 now isn't all that much one way or the other. If it's not going to mess with your ability to pay for more important things, IMO it's always better to start with the one you like best.


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## DavyRay (Apr 13, 2012)

Sortie Comp.


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## Meridian725 (Sep 7, 2012)

I started out on a hardtail and am now ready to go full suspension. Stoked.


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## mg2380 (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys! I think the Sortie Comp is the way to go. Now I just have to figure out what size I ride. Unfortunately no shops in Denver have one to test out... DB's website says I ride a size small (16"-17"). But size small on the Sortie is 15.5"... Size medium is 17". BTW: I'm 5'7" with a 29ish inseam.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Is that your pants inseam, or did you do the ritualistic thing with the book?

Regardless, 5'7" could go either way.

Have a look at the geometry chart for the Sortie. In particular, check out the effective top tube length. Ride some bikes that are available to you. Remember the sizes of the ones that felt about right, look up their top tube lengths, and get the Sortie that comes closest.


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## mg2380 (Nov 8, 2011)

Nope, I used a tape measure 

The only Sortie I could find close by was a 2012 Sortie 2 29er (the 2013 Sortie Comp is 26er). It felt a little big... Even though the sales guy said it looked fine. He was probably just trying to sell me a $2600 bike. ;-p 

I know they're completely different, but the small Overdrive (hardtail) fit me perfectly. It has a 22" top tube length. The small Sortie has a TTL of 22.5". So maybe that's the way to go...


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

mg2380 said:


> I know they're completely different, but the small Overdrive (hardtail) fit me perfectly. It has a 22" top tube length. The small Sortie has a TTL of 22.5". So maybe that's the way to go...


Probably close enough. You're already going a little longer with the small Sortie. So going even more longer-er would be going further away from your best reference length.

FWIW, here's something on getting a more precise inseam measurement.
Bike Fit Guide: Save 35-70% Every Day at Sierra Trading Post.


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## JBerry3rd (Sep 12, 2012)

I plan on starting with a hard tail for my first good mountain bike. From what I've been told at the local stores, the good FS bikes are too expensive for my price range right now, which is around like 700


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## mk.ultra (Jul 17, 2012)

started with a hardtail, sticking with a hardtail for numerous reasons. prime reason being that I simply cannot afford a decent FS, but I also love the simplicity and lighter weight as many others have said.


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## Nakkoush (Nov 22, 2012)

which decent HT bike do you recommend for around $1,000??


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Nakkoush said:


> which decent HT bike do you recommend for around $1,000??


One that fits YOU, and YOU are comfortable riding.
... the choice might also depend on what kind of trails YOU usually ride.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

First find a bike in your price range that is comfortable and can handle the kind of riding you will be doing like the previous post said. If you will be doing off road (trails etc) then you should consider doing some research on the type of suspension (if any) that the bike has, plus the components, specifically the derailleurs. Get the most bang for your buck. I think you'll find that a lot of bike have just about the same component groups, but you may also find a close-out on a previous model year which would be the best way to save cash and get a great bike.

Good luck


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

perttime said:


> One that fits YOU, and YOU are comfortable riding.
> ... the choice might also depend on what kind of trails YOU usually ride.


Someone needs to write a bot that posts this response to every single "what bike" thread then closes the thread.

If I listened to bike magazine reviews and online comments (almost exclusively from people who haven't rode the bike) about my ASR7, there is no way I would have bought it. Reviews call it too tall with not enough standover and no clear purpose. Had I caved to the reviews I would have never had a chance to own one of the most fun bikes I've ever been on and ended up with some other bike like the excellently reviewed 575 (which I found twitchy and no better at climbing than the 7).

Moral of the story is that everyone is different; from the proportions of their arms and legs to their torso to the way that everyone looks at and rides whatever trails they are near. No one on the internet should be able to make a better recommendation than you riding a bike for yourself. Of course, it's not always possible to ride everything before you buy it, but it is always worth spending the time trying to ride as many as you can.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

zebrahum said:


> Someone needs to write a bot that posts this response to every single "what bike" thread then closes the thread.
> 
> If I listened to bike magazine reviews and online comments (almost exclusively from people who haven't rode the bike) about my ASR7, there is no way I would have bought it. Reviews call it too tall with not enough standover and no clear purpose. Had I caved to the reviews I would have never had a chance to own one of the most fun bikes I've ever been on and ended up with some other bike like the excellently reviewed 575 (which I found twitchy and no better at climbing than the 7).
> 
> Moral of the story is that everyone is different; from the proportions of their arms and legs to their torso to the way that everyone looks at and rides whatever trails they are near. No one on the internet should be able to make a better recommendation than you riding a bike for yourself. Of course, it's not always possible to ride everything before you buy it, but it is always worth spending the time trying to ride as many as you can.


Good Point!!!!


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

dhosinski said:


> plus the components, specifically the derailleurs.


Derailers are overrated.
(and I don't necessarily mean that you need to go singlespeed, like I did)

Every not-quite-beginner bike out there has at least XT or X7 derailers because it is the one component that people will stare at, whatever the shifters, brakes, wheels, forks or cranks.

... I'm exaggerating a bit to make a point ...


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Not going to read the whole thing to see if the correct answer to the original question was answered. 


Hardtail or Full Suspension for New Rider?

The answer is Yes 

As in one of each. You can always get more later.:thumbsup:


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## Gladi (Nov 10, 2012)

HT for 2 reasons, it's light, and it will give you all the reasons why you should've bought a FS, in the first place.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

perttime said:


> Derailers are overrated.
> (and I don't necessarily mean that you need to go singlespeed, like I did)
> 
> Every not-quite-beginner bike out there has at least XT or X7 derailers because it is the one component that people will stare at, whatever the shifters, brakes, wheels, forks or cranks.
> ...


Yep, focusing on derailers is silly when there are much more important things to focus on. Geo, fit, rotational weight, fork. (not in any order).


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

perttime said:


> Derailers are overrated.
> (and I don't necessarily mean that you need to go singlespeed, like I did)
> )


Agreed:thumbsup:

The derailleurs are a dumb place to put a lot of money into. In fact, if I had an X7 / STX or higher groupset and had to downgrade one drivetrain component, it would likely be one of the derailleurs.


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## bigfruits (Mar 21, 2011)

get a nice steel 26" HT with "trail" geo, last year's rockshox revelation and some XT parts 

the 2013 kona explosif 650b might be a great beginner bike. i think its gonna be $1500 for a complete. haven't seen the specs yet...


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## njmark84 (Apr 1, 2012)

I'd imagine a HT would get you uphill easier than with a FS as you can transfer power better. Unless its more technical, then a FS would be slightly better.

Downhill the FS will more likely win.

In the end, I do less maintenance on my HT and still enjoy the sport.


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## bluntrager (Jul 7, 2013)

Loudviking said:


> Maybe I am old, but at 47 I still ride a hardtail. It all depends on if you want to plow or flow.
> I will always chose to flow. If bombing downhills is your thing then full suspension is great.
> If technical singletrack is on your mind and you are new to riding, cut your teeth on a HT.


New to riding, bought a 29er hardtail about two weeks ago. Sounds like I made the right choice! I look for lines everywhere now. Literally.


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## Thyamine (Jul 3, 2013)

I was riding a Schwinn FS all through the Spring and into Summer as friends and I started getting into the sport. I had no issues beating people up hill, but wasn't as crazy as my one friend who has no fear bombing hills on his HT. 

I was concerned about upgrading to a better bike and whether I should move to a HT or stay FS (much more expensive). In the end, I rode my friend's 29" HT and it was great. So that is what I went with and have been very happy with it. 

So my only point for anyone looking is to test ride a few bikes and see how they feel. At the LBS I tried out a few and was surprised how I would love one but hate another. Remember to try and give a few different styles a ride. Our LBS also lets you rent demo bikes for the day, so you can give it a good test on the mountain.


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