# Looking for a specific bike for rehab purposes (long post)



## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi gang, not sure I'll find the answers here, but maybe someone has the patience to solve my dilemma. I'm 35, 5,9, 150lb, over a year go health wise went downhill, thyroid problem and serous spine injury where by lower arch had to be pushed inward for proper position, it was bent outward. My osteopath said get on the bike but with tall handle bars to keep up a straight posture. Last time I rode one was 20 years a go. I bought a cheap Mongoose modified it as best as I could with my limited budget , and now after two weeks or so of riding starting to have spine issues must be the geometry of my bike. At the moment I have immune system problems where I'm unable to absorb nutrients from food, so I get tired quickly and more impersonality cannot build up muscle strength. So I'm ridding the bike not so much to rehab but simply to stretch out my muscles and leg and arch ligaments from having sever cramps otherwise because of my thyroid during the night everything tightens up shrinks, and I cramp up, so riding a bike stretches things, this will go on for at least a yea r or so till I figure out my thyroid problem, so I need a specific bike for my needs. I ride on sidewalks mostly, and some latish trail in parks.

Here is what I have now:

https://i62.tinypic.com/35hph8l.jpg

Issues:

1) In order to have high bars and close to my body yet enough space for my knees, is having a Downhill bike my only choice, they seem to have frames with high forks and the angle seem to move the bars closer to the hands?
The angle of the seat seem to have a negative effect on my back arch, are there frames where the angle of the seat tube in relation to the pedal location is more upright, like the A angle in my diagram:

https://i61.tinypic.com/epfakw.jpg

2) Does having a more upright seat to pedal angle requires more effort to pedal uphill, same effort or less effort?

3) Is it cheaper to simply have a bigger size wheel at the back to change that angle?

4) Is having a high fork design easier to go uphill or harder?

5) I'm really struggling going uphill or against the wind, so if we take out the cassette configuration and proper tires for urban setting out of equation, what type of bike frame geometry would help me pedal with less effort uphill or against the wind. I realize that fitness is the key, I played hockey all my life at a high pace, but now I know my body is not recovering or getting stronger, so after one hour ride if I hit many small hills I'm beat for the rest of the day, that's with constant gear changing, so I need to find a bike with the least effort possible, speed is not an issue for me well to a degree, since on small front gear and large at the back I pedal fast and barely move forward also very tiring.
6) Front fork angle, if I simply added a long fork to my existing frame or to another not expensive bike, which angle helps me on uphill, angle C which is upright or D which is probably what I'll get if the frame is not designed for a long fork DH?

https://i61.tinypic.com/epfakw.jpg

7) Hard tail vs. FS, right now if I stiffen the spring on my FS I really feel it when riding sidewalks, if collectively we all decide that the frame with proper geometry for me is hard tail, if I get one of those suspension tube seats, is that soft enough to withstand abuse from sidewalks?

8) if hard tail, if I put 27.5" in front will it absorb better on the back seat as well, and will it help with uphill and overall less effort to pedal?

Basically I need someone to look at my case and help me find a frame geometry that will give me correct posture and yet allow me to put in as little effort as possible when riding uphill or against heavy winds. I have very litter money to spend, but I think the key is the frame, sometimes there are used beat up frames on eBay for or Craiglist $150 or so from bikes that cost $1500 - $2000, so maybe I can start with a frame and use my bike for components, till I slowly save up for better ones, if someone can make a list of possible frames or bike models that will fit me regardless of cost. For example I found one locally for $100 it's brand new Mongoose Black Diamond FS single size M.

Sorry for such along post, but my dilemma is I fell in love with riding a bike, but uphill and getting tired very quickly takes the joy out of it because e I'm not improving health wise, well at least I found a substitute for hockey...

Cheers


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Based on everything going on I'm not sure it is possible to offer any suggestions online.

I will tell you that your doctor probably needs to set up some physical therapy sessions so someone with the proper background can monitor your cycling at their facility.

My older brother has severe heart issues and one of the options was to go to hospice. Miraculously his heart ejection rate went from the low teens to a point where he can do physical therapy. In physical therapy they have him riding a recumbent style of cycle. I think you need to get professional advice on what you can ride for your condition.

Good luck and hang in there.

John


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't need any sessions nor any medical advise, I’m healthy enough to function yet not healthy enough to have a fully active life. If I could at least get to answers to some of my technical question I’ll make a decision on my own based on answers.

Cheers


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry. I'm not a fitter and I can't recommend anything to reduce your spine issues. Personally, if it were me, I'd get a recumbent exercise bike and concentrate on stretching out your muscles first.

John


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## faceplant72 (Oct 25, 2009)

Try something like an Electra Townie. Downhill equipment is the last thing I would suggest

Sent from my SPH-D600 using Tapatalk 2


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

I don't know if it would work for you, but you might check out the Trek Pure. It's a crank forward bike(pedals farther out in front of you than typical geometry.) Pure - Trek Bicycle

Here's a video of a guy riding one. Maybe you can tell from that if it might work for you.





There's even a low step version that makes it even easier to get on and off the bike:

Pure Lowstep - Trek Bicycle

Similar idea to what faceplant72 was getting at with the Electra Townie suggestion, I think.


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## Hooch (Jun 30, 2006)

just a thought but have you looked at pedal assisted mtbs e-bikes. help you stretch and give you assitance when needed.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

No, these are all terrible ideas, I need someone who knows geometry, having pedals in front of me is the problem; I need to have them below my hip not in front. I don’t need exercise bikes, nor electric, I need a regular MTB with proper geometry, that’s all.

Cheers


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

UA101,

I think people are just trying to help. The reason for suggesting a crank forward is because you sit in a more upright position that will help your spine. Also knees too far forward of the pedals can cause problems. Last thing you need is to blow out a knee.

Whether you like it or not, an exercise bike is a great option for you right now. I hate them. And I hate gyms. I have always done some sort of sport to get my exercise. Just from your hockey background, you know one of the first steps to rehab after leg/ankle surgery is getting on an exercise bike.

Buck up, do the time to strengthen you legs and then go from there.

John


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

I was on exercise bike for past month, the issue with weak immune system is I need to workout outside not indoors, and being exposed to different areas with as wide verity of plant species as possible, that's' why I ride in parks or try to at least. Exercise bike the whole concept is not that great, because your skin absorbs everything, indoors you're absorbing dust, radiation from light, and other electrical appliances, that's whey people who train mostly outdoors are always better athletes then those who train indoors. If rehabbing a knee was an issue with a healthy body then exercise bike is an option, in my case I need to strengthen both yet I'm fighting two battles where one works against the other, meaning immune system is tired doesn't want to give me extra energy for exercise or store any muscle weight where as my back needs the exercise and muscle weight.

After some more research and reading this article:

Five Things that Matter on Bike Frame Geometry with Grant Petersen | Brooklyn Bicycle Co. City Bikes

I now realize that I need an XC bike with the most upright angles. Now sure if hard tail frames offer more upright angles then FS, I guess more research needs to be done on my part.

Cheers


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## TenSpeed (Feb 14, 2012)

An XC bike? I was going to suggest something along the lines of this:










Have you considered a recumbent bike as well?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

as much as you don't want to hear it, you are in no shape to go ride a mountain bike. you need to get back on a bike that suits your physical needs, and you are not going to get that out of any mountain bike. I know that a "comfort" or recumbent bike sounds lame, but it's that, or go surf the couch instead.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

UA101,

I don't want you to feel unwanted here, but if you decide to look into a recumbent, which may fit the bill better than a mountain bike, there is a forum located here...

BentRider Online Forums - Powered by vBulletin

I now understand why you need to be outdoors and I know you can get through this. Because of finances you do need to look at what options are out there before putting money into modifying a bike can get a lot more expensive. I'm glad to see you are doing some homework and trying to figure out what will work best.

John


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

A lot of trying to be helpful advice here. A mountain bike is designed to be ridden in the dirt ,not sidewalks. For what you need and want in a bike there are better choices .With a limited budget those are hard to find.The bike you are riding is not ever going to be what you need or want.I'd go to some shops and test ride some comfort bikes .


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

I give up; you guys are just throwing ideas based on zero experience. Having pedals in front of me is the absolute worst thing fro my posture regardless what type of bike it is, because it forces my back to stretch even more in the forward direction, I need my lower back arch to keep this way ( and upper back this way ( as well, my back leg ligaments and muscles are not stretched enough, so when my body feels tension in the back legs it starts to bend my back forward instead, why because the muscles in my upper back are too weak to fight again my muscles in my back legs, and we all know that human brain is always looking for an easy solution, so once my back clogs get tense the brain tells the body lets put more strain on the back, because if this I need to have a sitting position with eth same angle as if I was walking.

how many of you walk with your leaned back, noon of you, most of us are walking upright at 90 degree angle, I need to create the same thing only in a sitting position, that means the bottom bracket must be not in front of my hip and not behind, but at a 90degre angel directly underneath it. Three is a reason it’s easier to pedal up the hill while standing up, I only realized this today, except my bars are too close no room for the knees, need a higher front end fork, because at a stand up position you’re moving your upper body forward and creating an angle closer to 90%, and once you sit down that 90 degree angle disappears and makes you work harder because you have less gravity, gravity is always sore efficient at 90 degree then any other angle, so I need a frame where seat tube and bottom bracket both aligned at 90% straight line.

My other consideration was to take a regular seat tube and bent it forward to get the 90 degree line which is not the best solution but at least something.

I don’t need moral support, I need a hard tail or FS frame that works which is 90degree angle and high front end that’s it, please no other advice this is a bike forum. I'm not ina bad shape as it seems to you, so my goal is slowly to ride more in trails, forest....to get more cleaner oxygen, so that's why I'm set on HT or FS.

Cheers


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

To the OP, you're trying to achieve the relationship between your feet and hips you want by steepening the seat tube angle. That might work if you didn't have to take gravity into account. Moving yourself forward in relation to the bottom bracket to get your feet more under your hips moves your center of gravity forward in relation to the bottom bracket. The more you do that, the more upright you have to sit to keep from toppling forward on the bike(it's either that or support youself with your arms which will probably cause other problems due to too much weight on the hands.)

A crank forward bike would be an attempt to get the feet/hips relationship you want by rotating your entire position on the bike rearward. That's the rationale of those of us who suggested it.


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

Was going to suggest recumbent, comfort or fitness bikes but getting sort of an attitude regarding what you think you want/need and what's available out there. 

Honestly my best suggestion will be to sit down with your doctor and therapist and figure out what to do under supervision while you get started, a stationary bike should do the trick to get the legs and lungs going and at the same time you can look around shops or talk to builders about your specific bike needs. 

Don't think that the bike you describe can be found at any shop but could be built for sure. Rigid fork, wide tires, beefy frame construction, correct gearing, etc.

Why don't you talk with a bike builder in your area?


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## Balto78 (Oct 1, 2013)

UA101 said:


> I give up; you guys are just throwing ideas based on zero experience.


Well, no kidding! You have two relatively uncommon medical issues. Most people have no experience with either, let alone both. In addition, they preclude you from mountain biking, and yet you come to a forum for mountain biking and expect the people here to have experience with dealing with the things you have to deal with?!

As you have gotten more into it, you've made it clear that you want a (mountain) bike where you pedal in a completely upright posture with your shoulders, hips and bottom bracket all in a vertical line. I don't know what that is, but it certainly isn't a mountain bike. So getting annoyed with well meaning people for not suggesting a regular mountain bike with that geometry is a little silly. Frankly, it sounds like you want a unicycle with a front wheel and handlebars bolted on. If so, cool, maybe you can get one custom made.

But still, sorry for your difficulties, I hope you get the help you need.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

UA101 said:


> I give up; you guys are just throwing ideas based on zero experience.


You were told from the beginning that you NEED professional assistance to find something that will meet your needs. Yet you rejected that idea. It doesn't change the fact that you still need professional assistance.

Internet recommendations only go so far. With your unique set of circumstances, the internet cannot help you.

I had a unique set of circumstances. My immune system was worse than yours (I had none). I was physically worse off. I was recovering from a coma and had to learn to swallow again, let alone walk, run, and ride my bike. I had SEVERE physical limitations. Not once did I ask advice from the people here about what to do to start riding my bike again. I -gasp- talked to my doctor. He gave me a set of guidelines to follow. I followed them. Eventually, I was out riding on pavement, and a bit later, I was able to start riding on the trails again. Again, I talked to my DOCTOR.

In your case, I would start with conversations with my doctors, physical therapists, and any other specialists to get them on the same page with this plan. THEN, I would get them talking to a professional bike fitter who MIGHT be able to take their recommendations and help you find something that will work for you. It will not be free. It will not happen over the internet.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

I'm already fired up from that clipless cluster-thread so maybe you need to relax with me a little bit. I think it's pretty obvious that your description of your issues hasn't quite got you what you need as far as advice goes. People are trying to help, but we can only do so much. Take it down a notch and let's see if we can clarify how to help you. Surely there must be something to meet or nearly meet your needs.

You're confusing me a little bit, you seem to make some contradictory statements so let's see if we can get our terminology clear then we'll move onto how to help.

First let's talk about "Upright seating". Here is how the typical upright seating bicycle looks with riders on it:








Note that upright refers to the position of the upper body in relation to vertical. That dude in white is way upright, almost completely vertical. The more upright a bike seating position is, the more vertical one sits. An XC mountain bike however will give you a body position which looks more like this:








That is a pretty mild XC bike position but you can see clearly that the person is bent forward more, placing more weight on their hands. For most people with back issues they require less curvature of the spine in the riding position; this seems to be evidenced by the way you have your Mongoose set up. It has very high bars and the stem is turned around backward which seems to indicate that you are trying to get your hands as close to your chest as you can, or in other words you are trying to sit as upright as possible.

Can you confirm whether you want a very upright seating position or a normal mountain bike seating position?

Next, I'm going to fly through your other questions as quick as I can so we can get back to that first one as that's the fundamental question to determine what you're trying to do with your body. 
1) Downhill bikes are not a good choice for riding which involved pedaling

2) Seat angle (the angle of the seat tube compared to vertical) doesn't change more than about 5° for the normal range of bikes you would be purchasing from a store. At the extreme ends of the spectrum it would require slightly more effort to pedal because you don't have as much leverage over the crank arms as you would with a more relaxed (or slack or less horizontal, depending on what term you'd like to use) seat angle. I am referring to this as a casual cyclist, for advanced riders moving forward on the saddle is used to increase power output, but this is usually only done at the extreme end of effort to squeeze out every last drop of power.

3)It might be cheaper to change wheels but most bikes can't take a smaller size wheel. It often causes the crank arms to hit the ground if you put a smaller wheel on the back. It also makes you tip over backward.

4)It is harder to go uphill with a high fork because the bike has a tendency to want to pull the front wheel off the ground. Again, makes you want to tip over backward (a bit).

5) Here's the trouble: upright seating and a very steep seat angle are not the most efficient power output and they are certainly not good at being aerodynamic. Let's take our body position to the logical extreme and take a look at a highly aerodynamic cycling position:








Obviously, this is extreme; note that the back is actually below horizontal. This position, however uncomfortable is very good at dealing with a headwind. The more body you present to the wind, the more drag you're going to get. Sad to say but this may be an area which you are forced to compromise: you either get upright seating or you get aerodynamic body position, there's no both.

Now for the bike, the most efficient way to put on miles is with high pressure skinny tires. Typically larger diameter wheels provide less rolling resistance. High pressure, skinny tires are a rough ride so there are lots of options between road bike and mountain bike to choose from either full slicks for just road to semi slicks if you're getting some gravel or dirt thrown at you. The rougher your roads the fatter you want your tires so they can provide some cushion.

6) See #3 and #4. The front wheel will not aid in bump absorption at the back wheel.

7) This is a tough one. On one hand a hardtail bike is really what you need for efficiency but with a spine issue rear suspension can help you cope with unexpected bumps in the road which could cause pain. You could get a hardtail with a suspension seatpost (which I almost never recommend but this seems like a good situation for one) which would help with unexpected bumps and provide good pedaling efficiency

8) See #6, #3, #4

It sounds to me like you want a bike with an upright seating position and a steep (horizontal) seat tube, would you say this is an accurate statement?


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Zebra thank you finally some progress


It’s hard for me to explain and I’m not good at drawing, basically at the current state my pelvis is not holding the correct potion, it shifts between forward and backward. Non of you can relate so don’t worry, correct potion for normal people is having it backward so your knees are straight, mine because my back leg muscles and ligaments are not stretched shifts from forward to back, depending on weather, humidity, my thyroid….and this effects my upper back position as well, too much upper body weight.

When it shifts forward my upper back starts to bend forward as well, which is not good and puts a lot of strain on by mid back and my arch on my back as well. Basically my upper body is too heavy right now for the pelvis and back muscles to keep it steady because the upper back muscles are not helping the lower body to support it.

Now in a sitting potion same thing, the upper back wants to bend forward because of the weight of the upper body. So when I sit on a bike seat, because of the upper body weight a steep angle of the seat not being 90 degree, this weight of my upper body is pushing my pelvis forward and when I extend my legs for pedaling I’m not stretching the back leg muscles and ligaments correctly I’m stretching my upper mid section of my back, as precisely said the brain is getting lazy since the muscles are not cooperating. So after riding an hour I feel worse then before the pelvis shifts forward and buck is bedding too much forward, I’m basically stretching my back forward which is the complete opposite of what I need I need to stretch my back legs and muscles and not stretch my back this is for now only till I can hold it steady..

I want to remove the weigh of the back from my pelvis by changing the angle of the seat tube, actually when I ride standing up without pedaling and lean forward so my body is slightly more then 90 degrees in correlation to the bottom bracket that’s when I feel good, but I’m way to close to the handle bars at this position, so ideal situating would be to have handle bars that move forward and back with a lock shifter so I can change it based on my position if I’m uphill or downhill and lock it in any particular position.

So yes I’m trying to have more weight on my hands but more of a support to ease up on the pelvis from moving forward from my upper body weight, so in a since when you said a unicycle with front handle bars that’s exactly what I need in a bike frame.

Now let’s add to the unicycle the dilemma of having handle bars close to me, yet enough space for my knees to ride standing up. This is another dilemma, because I could achieve this with a high fork, but you said high fork is counterproductive for me to much effort going uphill. So what I’m thinking is a frame made with an upright seat tube, and also made for a very high fork, but if I put in a medium size fork, this will angle everything forward and will bring the seat tube closer to 90 degree ---- does that make sense? 

Cheers


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I think it's obvious that the position you're looking for is going to be a bit outside of the nor, so you're pretty much going to have to learn to deal with not being in what would typically be considered the most energy efficient layout. It is what it is.

That said, something you could try to get your body positioned directly above the bottom bracket while seated is to get a setback seatpost and install it backwards. This will move you foward in relation to the pedals. Now of course, you're closer to the bars than optimal. (If you can find a frame with a steep seat tube angle and a long top-tube length, that would help mitigate some of the wonkiness that's going to come with this). Up front, you might want to look into an adjustable stem; maybe through some trail and error, you can find a position that works for you. Also, if you don't mind stopping and making an adjustment here and there, you can change your h-bar position on the fly pretty easily with one of these for different conditions.



















Amazon.com : ABR 31.8mm Adjustable Handlebar Stem Raiser for Every Enthusiastic Rider -48° to +60° : Sports & Outdoors

Tough call; hope this helps a little. Good luck.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

You are right in that we don't understand your issues, you are wrong in that we don't understand bikes to some degree. What you are looking for does not exist from a stock bike maker. As been said talk to your doc and therapist ,they know a lot more about you and your issues than we ever will.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

UA101 said:


> Zebra thank you finally some progress
> 
> It's hard for me to explain and I'm not good at drawing, basically at the current state my pelvis is not holding the correct potion, it shifts between forward and backward. Non of you can relate so don't worry, correct potion for normal people is having it backward so your knees are straight, mine because my back leg muscles and ligaments are not stretched shifts from forward to back, depending on weather, humidity, my thyroid&#8230;.and this effects my upper back position as well, too much upper body weight.
> 
> ...


You're going to have to bear with me, this is a very complicated description of a problem we're obviously not familiar with, and the vast majority of us are not doctors. I would implore you to follow Nate's advice and talk this out with your doctor or try and get a recommendation of a physio who could help you with these issues. We're sitting here guessing and even if we all agree that our answers are what you need to do, we might be way off base and causing you harm without realizing it. That being said, I will continue to try to talk this out and see what we can learn.

So it seems to me like your pelvis is unstable so you'll need to support your upper body using your hands and you'll want to create some possibility for stability through the pelvis, as an engineer this leads me to suggest that you should probably be making angles. Your upper body should be somewhat forward leaning which should promote the pelvis rotating backward (rounding the low back) into a slouched sitting position. Then to allow the pelvis to remain somewhat stable you should probably maintain the typical cycling seating position which will bring the legs out in front of you and keep the pelvis from snapping forward and backward at least allowing you to maintain a position on the bike.

Not to sound like a jerk but your current bike is set up improperly in almost every way you can imagine. The stem is on backward which will make the handling of the bike very difficult, the saddle is nose up which makes you constantly slide off the back of the bike causing you to compensate by using muscles you shouldn't need to, the design of that bike makes you have to sit much further back in relation to the pedals than you would normally need to. There's a lot going on with this bike and quite frankly some of your issues may be with the limitations of the base bike you're chosen to start with. It's heavy, small, and has very inefficient pedaling to begin with; add in your modifications and it wouldn't have been easy to get what you need out of it.

Here's my current suggestion: upright seating path bike, possibly updated with a shorter stem and higher rise bars. This would put you in an upright position but you could control that amount using the stem length and bar height.

I've once again realized that this is stupid over the internet. If you won't talk to your doctor(s) about this then you at least need to go visit a few bike shops. Let them put you on a few bikes so you can see what the differences are between them.

I would also talk to your doctor about giving you a stationary stretching routine, something you can do after your bike rides when you get home. I usually just plop down on my garage floor for a few minutes after a ride and stretch my hamstrings, quads, and whatever other muscles I'm not smart enough to identify. You keep saying this is for "stretching" maybe you should incorporate some deliberate stretching in your exercise plan to help.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Ok lets go thru few thins.

I can never reach my doctor, it takes two months to get a hold of him, he's one man show, and rarely answers his phone or email, but I only trust him and no one else, he never told me specific instructions expect ride a bike and try not bend forward way down low, that means always listen to your body, if something is not right it's not right, so I know when my body is not right.

I will sort out the bike issue with him but it might take two months, and there is no way I'm sitting by the window and waiting. I know how to dial up or down my routine so I can always take days off if I feel something is not right. So please no more doctor questions, I have more experience with doctors then most people since I had to go thru quite a few who almost crippled me for life until I got to him, people usually go to him once they've been to every other chiro in the city, brilliant man but customer service or communication is not his strong suit.

I do many other exercises during the day when it comes to stretching, so again no more physical exercises suggestions. I do like your criticism so I prefer when people critic and harshly instead of compliments, so don't be shy I can take it, including my crappy bike.

Now I realize this bike is not a good fit, remember this is my first bike in 20 years, did not have money to go to a store and get fitted nor do I have now well at least the type of prices they have, do not want to waste their time. That's why I'm here relying on you people.

two weeks a go didnt know anything technical about bikes absolutely nothing, so all these incorrect settings you see on it is me simply using this bike as an experiment to find out what I want as far as comfort level, posture&#8230;. That's why I turned the stem backwards, because the frame is too long and the handle bars are not horizontal they are curved at the grips, very difficult to get a precise position that I need. So everyday I play around with different position and ride it to see how it feels. Had the stem forward last week, too far out, this week too close, will try to bent the grips into horizontal position this week to dial in more angles.

The seat is up because I slide of it if it's straight, I'm 150lb with skinny ass, nothing grips on the seat unlike people with more muscle and fat on their ass plus if they weigh more it helps, in my case I set it up just enough not to slide forward off it.

Now today I moved the seat forward like this:

https://i61.tinypic.com/2qu3o9g.jpg

this changed my angle a bit, and I now realize that what I wanted is stupid and not realistic, so a unicycle position of 90% angle only feels comfortable when I go uphill, specially steep uphill, straight line or downhill, well steep downhill I rarely pedal, so straight line having the bottom bracket right underneath me is not comfortable, well feels unnatural, so I understand the argument now. But, before you jump on me it did feel easier for me to hold my posture, I only rode 15 min, the weather was bad, so I need to get a full hour in this position to find out if I can live with upright tube angle if it helps me keep my posture.

Also stiffened up the back spring suspension, felt ok, looks like I'm slowly adjusting to riding. But realizing hard tail or no back suspension might be too much for me at this stage, need more time.

Now some questions:

1)	I see some long stem posts, how do they connect to the fork, if my fork is threadless, do I need a threaded fork to fit a long straight stem with adjustable angle?
2)	Is it ok to put spacers below the front frame tube so between the fork and the bottom of the front tube frame, I realize my fork has short stem, but still I want to see how it feels even with 2 inches or so, this should change the fork angle to less steep, so I will see how it feels, again just using this as reference to find out how each set up feels. Right now I feel my fork is too upright, well the long bars make it feel that way.
3)	Is there a stem that secures the handle bars right on top of the fork stem? I see short stems but still they force you to either have handle bars in front of the stem or behind like I did with mine which is not very good for steering and balance. What about right on top?
4)	I saw a seat post that had an actuator and a shifter connected to it so you can change it on the fly, is there such a thing only for handle bar stem where you can change the handle bar position on the fly, or a lock system where you click and unlock it it's loose and second click it locks it?
5)	Is there a frame with changable seat tube angle, again ideal would be on the fly so going uphill you can dial in a straight angle in correlation to the bottom bracket and downhill relaxed angle, or maybe not the frame but the seat would slide forward and backward just like I did with mine today, but on the fly.

I realize these are complicated and expensive concepts, just want to know if there was an attempt at least by someone, even if it was a one off experiment.

I'm now realizing to have perfect or more correctly an universal bike that would give maximum efficiency in going up, down and straight it must have both the seat tube angle and the handle bars angle able to change on the fly and to complicate things even more they would be able to connect as well so changing one could change the other as well or change independently.

Cheers


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

You have no idea what you are doing. You will have to spend money to get what you need. But you need a professional.


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## TenSpeed (Feb 14, 2012)

3 - Yes, it is called direct mount.

4 - No

5 - Not possible

I don't know enough to answer the first question, and the second I am unsure about, so I will pass on that as well. Have you ridden any other type of bike so far? Just to rule them out that they will not work for your medical condition. That would be my first thing to do.


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

For the stem you could use a dual crown fork and a direct mount stem, also this may do the trick without having to change the fork.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

UA101 said:


> Now some questions:
> 
> 1)	I see some long stem posts, how do they connect to the fork, if my fork is threadless, do I need a threaded fork to fit a long straight stem with adjustable angle?
> 2)	Is it ok to put spacers below the front frame tube so between the fork and the bottom of the front tube frame, I realize my fork has short stem, but still I want to see how it feels even with 2 inches or so, this should change the fork angle to less steep, so I will see how it feels, again just using this as reference to find out how each set up feels. Right now I feel my fork is too upright, well the long bars make it feel that way.
> ...


Well I'm not going to pretend to be able to fit your bike over the internet so you keep adjusting things as you see fit until you can see a doctor. I would definitely find a bike shop which can help you in the meantime. I suspect you're probably going to need some form or suspension whether that be from the bike or a seatpost and I think you can keep experimenting with the various pieces so long as you understand how to safely reattach everything. I still wouldn't run a stem backward like that, but this isn't my bike.

I know that you're new so let's make sure we're all talking the same language. So you're clear on what I'm going to call things here are a couple of diagrams which will explain some basic terms to make sure we're all calling the same thing by the same name.

















1) If the steerer tube on your fork is threadless you need a threadless stem, if it is a threaded steerer you need a quill stem. You also need to match the diameters to make sure pieces are compatible. Long stems are probably not the answer to your issue, short high rise ones probably are. This is because I still don't think you should have the stem turned backward like that.

2) No, you can't do that. And why are you infatuated with raising the front of the bike? You're trying to accomplish something but I can't work out what. Whatever it is that you're trying to to by continuously suggesting that you rake out the bike can be accomplished through the stem/bar interface and will not affect the way the bike rides in the negative way that putting a longer distance from wheel axle to the frame (this is called the axle to crown measurement). More A-C means you're more likely to tip over backward with bars like you have, less steering precision, and if you go too far (like if you put a big suspension fork on) will cause wheel flop. Whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, there is a better way to go about it.

3) I don't know of a product like this for standard steerer tubes, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The shortest standard stem you will find is about 30mm long. Right on top removes steering leverage which is why you'll find that all bikes have stems up front as they are designed to be used.

4) Again, not that I'm aware of. There are adjustable angle stems but they require moving a pretty hefty bolt which takes a good chunk of time.

5) Same answer here I'm afraid.

I know that you have a unique set of needs but maybe we need to reset your perception of what's going to best meet your needs. You don't need to have a bike that is efficient downhill because you said you don't pedal downhill. If you don't need to pedal, you don't really need to worry about efficiency. So your primary need is really just your back. The rest will fall in line after a period of time.

Everyone's body must adjust to bike riding, yours in its own unique way will take longer, but you're not entirely unique here. Everyone's legs and bottoms and backs are not accustomed to being on a bike and pedaling and in that riding position. It takes time to be comfortable and you'll find that you can probably adjust things as you get more saddle time. Just keep that in mind before you go spending too much money on things. Get the bike so you can ride it and put some miles in. Adjust as needed. Yes your needs are unique but the story isn't too different; you need to build strength and comfort.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Well after two days of countless changes. Here is where I stand

This frame is too long for me, its length is 22" when I put the stem forward like normal position the handle bar grips are curved so you can't dial in the proper angle, even with my adjustable stem, could not find a comfortable angle.

When I twist them the other way around, then the angle is somewhat there everything else is out of wack, which is my initial observation I need handle bars with straight horizontal grips and with this particular size frame they have to be above the fork stem, which is not good for steering, having it slightly in front is better steering and handling.

Also these bars are to flexible, no middle bar between them so way to, much flexing going on, not sure if a long stem would flex less with regular MTB straight handle bars.

Which brings me to lots of questions.

If I need to have my handle bar grips at about 38" of the ground with a 26" wheel, so the fork starts at 13" of ground basically we have 25" of height, what is the optimal break down here for those 25" as far as

A)	Fork height up to bottom head tube
B)	Head tube height
C)	Front stem or a fork with very long stem 
D)	Head tube angle

Second issue is what is the optimal frame length for me, if the 22" is to long or at least I feel I need to have the bars right on top of the steering, so usually the stem angles about 2-3" forward, so am I correct to assume a frame with 18-19" length would be ideal?

Next issue is the seat tube height, how does it effect frame geometry and efficacy when pedaling, since I have 36" of height to fill in, I'm not sure if bottom Bracket is always on the same line as wheels so at 13" if that's the case, again what is the best way to fill in the 23", is it very tall seat tube and short seat tube post, how much effect these two have on efficiency?

Since I'm using this bike as reference, can I calculate the frame angles if I have all three measures of down tube, seat tube and head tube? If so how do we do that for these angles?

https://i62.tinypic.com/35hph8l.jpg

a)	Seat tube angle, I moved my seat up so it's more upright now.
b)	Head angle

Does pedal length change efficiency I would think that longer pedal would create more torque but not sure if it's easy from starting point I guess same analogy as large and small wheels?

Ever since I stiffened the back suspension it's hard to understand if I started to go faster or slower, seems like on grass it's slower but on concrete or sidewalks it's faster. I still don't understand if stiff frame is easier to pedal on pavement or not, some say FS has more grip so more traction so more efficient pedaling, others say hard tail is stiffer so more energy transfer, so which is it if it's the same rider?

I did notice that once I moved the seat up to a more upright position on uphill I'm no longer shifting to my last gear on the back wheel, more like gears 2, 3 or 4, I still get tired the same on the same hill but I'm climbing it a bit faster. So upright seat tube is helping, still unconventional feel on straights and now that I lean in forward a bit to balance the weight, my nuts always get compressed.

As for air dynamics I realize that will be my biggest unresolved issue, so no worries about that.

Cheers


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

UA101 said:


> Well after two days of countless changes. Here is where I stand
> 
> This frame is too long for me, its length is 22" when I put the stem forward like normal position the handle bar grips are curved so you can't dial in the proper angle, even with my adjustable stem, could not find a comfortable angle.
> 
> ...


I want to try and help you, I really do, but it's almost impossible to properly fit a bike to a person with completely average bicycle needs over the internet and that makes your unique needs for bike fitting approaching unreasonable in the way we're trying to do this. How many bike shops have you spoke to about your fitment issues?

22" top tube is probably a touch short for your size if we were talking a traditional mountain bike fit. Your handlebars are at an obscene height for traditional needs, unfortunately there are no commonly available solutions for raising your hands to the height you feel they should be. Stems can only get you so high, a few inches at best which means that you need to make that other height up in the bars, which you've been doing. You have reached the best, commonly available solution to what you see to be your issue as far as I can tell. Let's hit those numerically listed items above:

A) Holy crap, you need to let this go. Raising the axle to crown distance is the most difficult, most expensive, and least helpful method of doing anything but creating a DH bike. You have yet to explain what you expect to gain from raising the A-C measurement and until you do I'm going to keep saying it's a terrible idea.

B) Head tube height is a set feature of the frame you're using. It can't be adapted and you don't get to choose it. The head tube length (which creates the height of the top of the head tube along with the A-C measurement) is a set feature of the frame you choose and that is typically defined by the manufacturer. From the largest to the smallest size frames you will usually see a range of about 2 inches in head tube length; not huge.

C) Here's another point where I'm going to ask you to use common terminology so that we make sure we're all saying the same thing; if I'm describing something that you didn't intend to talk about, please correct me. The stem has two dimensions for sizing (and a couple dimensions which define what type of steerer tube they attach to and what kind of handlebar they can hold), those two dimensions are length (steerer tube center to handlebar center) and angle (0 degrees rise is perpendicular to the steerer tube and any angle, let's use 5 degrees as an example, is that amount of degrees from perpendicular). Let's talk extremes so we can get a handle on the concepts; if we had a 24" long stem at 0 degrees your hands would be very far out toward the front wheel. but if we had a 24" stem at 90 degrees your hands would be less far forward and more upward. I think what you really want is a very short stem with a very steep angle to get the bars as high as possible without increasing the reach; something like a 120mm length with a 30 degree rise. Or shorter would bring the bars closer to you without a ton of height difference.

D) Head tube angle doesn't change more than 3 or so degrees for the range of bikes which would be appropriate for you. It also does essentially nothing for your body position. I'm going to start a new paragraph to describe what you should be looking for when choosing a new bike or an existing bike:

FIT.

That's all; just fit. You could choose a road bike or a cross bike or a fat bike or a DJ bike or an AMHT, it really doesn't matter. Your head angle could be 72 degrees or 76 degrees or 68 degrees, it doesn't matter at all. Every single one of your unique fit issues is going to be addressed through the combination of stem, handlebar, saddle, and saddle position. It has nothing to do with frame geometry. You're going to be able to walk in to a bike shop and walk out with a bike which can be adjusted to what you need.

It might not be the first bike shop you go in to, some bike shops are certainly better than others. I happen to live in a place where bad bike shops are rare and there are dozens of choices within an hour's drive so I'm spoiled but the support of a good shop who will listen to you and help is going to be invaluable to your success. The simple act of seeing you sit on a bike and pedal is vastly more important than a bunch of people with good intentions thousands of miles away trying to guess how to help.

Anyway, back to it: when you see those measurements they are talking about seat tube length so make sure you're finding out what the ETT or effective top tube length is when you're comparing frames. That's probably going to be the one which causes the most difference from frame to frame, but to be honest, with the handlebars and stem that you're looking to put on there is almost no bike which is commercially available which you couldn't make fit your needs.

Let's talk efficiency now... It's come up a lot in the threads I've been responding to lately so let's work out what we're talking about. Efficiency is the amount of energy you get to the wheels vs the amount of muscular energy you put in. I've read that the bicycle is the most efficient machine that humans have created, not sure if I buy that, but it can't be too far off. Efficiency is affected by a lot of things: bearing friction, tire deflection during rotation, aerodynamics; a person on a bicycle is an impossibly complex system but if you really want to get down to it there's only one thing which is going to make a meaningful difference: rolling resistance. If you want more efficiency you need less rolling resistance. So long as you travel less than 18 mph aerodynamics are not a concern, and the efficiency of muscle usage depending on seat tube angle are so far beyond what I can explain that it's not even worth considering.

Second verse, same as the first: you need to step back and evaluate your actual needs. You don't need the pinnacle of efficiency, you don't need to know your seat tube angle to the quarter degree, what you need to know is that you can physically ride a bike and get out there and pedal. It's so tempting to overthink things (hey, who's that guy who's written a dissertation so far in this thread?) but when it comes down to it you need to seek some in-person help. You're stressing about things which have no bearing on how we make sure that you can get some riding in. Your inquiry about A-C measurements, seat angles and head tube lengths is detracting from your goal, albeit in an interesting way. If we ignore everything, you could take your current bike and get something which you could ride relatively comfortably; it might not be the (I'm going to replace the word "efficient" with) fastest rolling bike out there but should be able to get you out on your bike. However, you'll never get there without help. You need help, more help than the internet can give you. I'm happy to keep speaking in generalities but you really need to go have someone look at how you need to ride a bike. If you go to a bike shop worth their keep then they'll understand your needs and try to help you as best they can.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ditto.



My head hurts.


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

Just a few more thoughts on this:

Increasing axle to crown distance would also slacken your seat tube angle which is the opposite of what you said you want in that angle. Forget that idea.

What you could try is a stem raiser. This is the tallest I've seen: Amazon.com : Delta Pro Stem Raiser (Black) : Bike Stems And Parts : Sports & Outdoors

That might allow you to flip your stem the proper way around. That would give you more knee clearance. Then you could fiddle with the angle of your handlebars to see if you could arrive at a position that would work for you. You might even be able to go with a bar with less rise which should lessen the flexiness of the bar.

Dunno if that would help you or not, but the situation is so unusual that's about all I've got for suggestions.

Be aware that trying to rig a bike so far beyond for what the design was intended probably breaks all kinds of safety limits, but I think you've likely crossed that line already.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

This will move along much better and faster if you'd get your doctor to do the talking on this thread. You don't know how things work, in addition if you have exactly what you need it's no guarantee, that it would help you. Riding bicycle requires dynamic reaction, counter balance, etc. You also do not know how suspension works or how it react to bumps

It would also be much easier to point you in the right direction if money is no object, but if you are working with such tight budget it makes for an impossible task. 

You need other kinds of exercise for your rehab, come back and ride mountain bike when you are better. 

Good luck with your recovery.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm beginning to think that I smell a troll . OP doesn't respond to questions about PT's or visiting shops.He has excuses for not involving his Dr.He has all kinds of ideas frame design and engineering but doesn't have money to even think about getting a bike that would be a better fit for him. There's been a lot of helpful advice and ideas ,but he rejects them .He refuses to use the correct terminology in describing parts when it has been provided to him. He has self admitted limitations and wants a bike that would not be ideal for him or his intended use.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rangeriderdave said:


> He has all kinds of ideas frame design and engineering but doesn't have money to even think about getting a bike that would be a better fit for him. There's been a lot of helpful advice and ideas ,but he rejects them .He refuses to use the correct terminology in describing parts when it has been provided to him. He has self admitted limitations and wants a bike that would not be ideal for him or his intended use.


I dunno, sounds like about 1/2 the internet bikers in the world if ya ask me.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

I will write two replies, one ideology and one with technical questions, hopefully after my ideology people who have no technical expertise will go way and only those who are qualified will stay to help me. 

First of all I want this thread to stay in the archives, so regardless if I achieve my goal of finding a bike that works or not, I’m sure down the line someone else will come in with similar problems and they can use our discussion to get some results. That’s why I ask about concepts and things that exist or not, so people who can afford to do these experiment or concepts will try them out and it might benefit them in their recovery.

So if you have nothing to contribute as far as technical expertise please don’t reply and actually when we’re done maybe the moderators can edit a lot of unnecessary replies (including mine) and leave out only the technical and valuable information.

Doctors: I’ve had digestion issue and stomach issues for many years despite playing hockey thru it, and have been to many specialist around the world who are considered “top end” one thing I’ve learned they are all full of it, they are scientist, who constantly conduct expertness, so some things work and for others they make it worse, the only way is to find your own path to recovery by using doctors as feedback mechanism and not relying on them. Learned it the hard way. 

So even this doctor who I trust was incorrect on some of things as far as specific diet, and for me diet right now is far more important in full recovery that’s why I’m skeptical of the whola medical community and try not to rely too much on them, again life experience.

What really happens here is Darwin’s system of evolution or adaptation. So first ape started to walk upright and most likely had back problems for sure, all other apes said you’re crazy you need to see a specialist about your problem, then another ape tried it, also failed, and then another and then one tried it and no back problems at all his genetics adapted much faster, so all this discussion what is proper bike position and not proper is useless, it’s what feels comfortable as far a each individual body and your body being able to adapt, so there is no such thing as correct muscles or not correct muscles working when you bike, genetics and adaptation will decide what is good for you and what is deadly, so you should be in tune with your body.


I used to be one of the contributing member on a hockey forum and many newbies came in with all sorts of problems and questions about proper skate fitting, which is far more difficult then bike fitting, because there are only three major brands and very few options compared to the bike industry, plus hockey is more about feel on the ice rather then aerodynamics or proper geometry even though there is a lot of geometry involved. What made me a qualifying person to help these people are two things, I had pronation problems so I could relate, had a hip issue, so can relate, and more importantly I was reverse engineer skates to a point of knowing how to read thru marketing ******** and tell people what type of material a skate is made from and what type of response they should expect from it, so every year new model come out I’d modify it take a part, try many combinations and point out the defects in design and offer potential solutions. Where as guys that work in pro shops that also fitted some pro players gave such a bad advice that some people came to the forum looking for better solutions. Not to mention when I saw one of these so called “Qualified” pro fitters during a game he can barely skate that’s’ an alarm to me, you should be an a desent level skater in order to give any technical advise, you should be constantly try gin new and old, different, conventional unconventional things in order to offer advise.

If you work in a store all day when do you have time to try out new bikes, different set ups, different terrain….going on feedback from customers is not a good idea in developing your skill set as a fitter, must be combination of personal trial and error. I put zero stock into store employees, and a lot of stock into an armature rider who is constantly riding, changing things experimenting… these people are usually found on these types of forums

Now I was able to help only those people who have good taste, good taste is someone who is able to quickly point out the exact problem they have instead of generalizing, and can pretty much know when they achieved what they were looking for, only under these circumstances you can have results when both are in tune, one receives feedback and the other offers a specific solution.

Since I fall into the category of having good taste (usually people with bad or weak genetics so that’s how we compensate for it) if I give you constant detailed feedback the people who have tons of experience in trying out different MTB bikes and set ups… then we can achieve something. 

I’ve been to few stores lately, all of their bikes are set up with low seat and low bars, they would have to do a lot of set up changes for me to try, I would have to ride it in the same route as I usually do for a good 30 min at least so I can see the differences, plus I don’t have the money to buy these bikes at 700 - 3k price tag, so put the store fitting issue to rest and be done with it. I’ve helped many people via internet on hockey issues who had very little to spend and a lot to spend, there are ways around it to a certain degree, these people visited top hockey stores and sleeked advice and got nowhere, I see no reasons to suspect that this community also has smart people with enough experience who can help me based on my feedback.

Now I’m set on MTB because my goal is to get of the road into parks, forest again to get more oxygen into my body, so all these suggestions on comfort bikes…are not serious, MTB you can ride anywhere not the other way around.

Now it’s very difficult for me to write a lot or do a lot of research online on stuff like proper terminology…simply because I have to stay outside as much as possible because of my immune system, on days when I sit at home or in front of a computer I feel more sick when I’m in the sun, exercising or riding or other things, so I hope you can look past things like me not replying every day or wrong terminology, as long as we move forward and understand each other then after we’re done I can write an essay with proper terminology on what worked or didn’t work for me, so others with rehab issues can use it as reference, after all I have the worst case scenario, so instead of wining and *****hing, I want you guys to take it as a challenge. I take full responsibility if I do more harm then good, I believe for me “Safe is death” the reason human beings are the top of the food chain is because we push the envelop more then any other species, and the will power we have is second to non. So let’s use this as a case study maybe new invention will come out of it down the line for others to benefit.

I will write a second reply with technical questions later on, today is nice weather outside I want to take full advantage of it. So please hold your replies.

Cheers.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Stumbled pun this website lots of good and simple information, especially DIY stuff, could have saved you guys tons of writing space.

Basic Mountain Bike Geometry and Fit | HuckingKitty!

Ok, technical questions.

I'm trying to figure out not just for me but anyone else with budget or not what types of frames are the most flexible in the set up so you can really change a lot of angles on them, this will increase the range of search for used, new or bargain frames which I think is the best choice, something like 15- 20 year old which is still better then the current Wal-Mart stuff, especially the DH frames since they're one trick pony so, easier to bargain

1)	What type of pivot system on Dual suspension is the most flexible when it comes to setting up the seat tube angle?
2)	The whole rear shock travel slightly confuses me, if we have a frame with very long rear travel , depending on the pivot design of the frame of course, would I be able to change the seat tube angle drastically if I used a shorter length rear shock? Or if the shook has adjustable travel length you can simply shorten it? I guess where I'm confused is the angle of the chainstay in relation to the seat tube angle, does it have to be always zero (perpendicular) or some type of standard angle?
3)	The other way around, a frame with a short travel, you insert a longer travel shock so this will force the seat tube to become more upright, of course the head tube angle also becomes more upright. Now the website above tells me that special headset can alter the front fork angle by 1.5 degrees not sure how significant it is?
4)	What is the ideal shock travel length for the most flexibility of changing a seat tube angle where you can do both steep and relaxed angles?
5)	It seems to me that threaded forks with steering tube have more extension options and longer ones as well then threadless, is that correct?
6)	What is the difference between having a fork with a short steering tube and a long stem extension VS a fork with a long steering tube and a short stem extension?
7)	Are there threaded forks with very long steering tube, if so how high does this length go?
8)	If my fork has 17" from wheel axle to the bottom of the head tube doe that mean its 40mm fork?
9)	Are there any forks with a separate handle bar design, or a stem where you can insert a separate handle bar for each hand, here is a picture of my exercise bike with broom sticks:

https://i57.tinypic.com/2wgf4h3.jpg

https://i60.tinypic.com/2isyycz.jpg

As you can see I could create lots of different hand position angles by rotating them or crisss crossing them. I think if there was a gadget to connect between the two in high mid mark with a lock unlock cable, there could be an interesting concept on different handle bar positions, well it's a primitive one, yet it very much helped me on my first stage when my lower back was very weak.

Cheers


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

I guess it worked no one is feeding the troll. Ride on peeps.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

UA101 said:


> ...


I can't even get into your head to predict what you're trying to do anymore. Usually I have a knack for predicting people's needs and giving them pretty solid advice but you're either difficult to fit or you aren't recognizing your needs vs your options. I'm leaning toward that second one.

1) The only designs that are adjustable in any way are the frames with multiple mounting points for rear suspension points. These are very rare and not worth my time researching them to point out to you as most of them are DH bikes.

2) Shocks do not have adjustable travel with the exception (off the top of my head) of a couple Cannondale bikes. Changing the stroke length can cause bottoming or frame interference and is almost always not possible in the range that would significantly affect seat angle. I will define significantly as outside the range that saddle adjustment would bring, which is quite a bit more than you are apparently aware of.

3) Same thing as 2. You can't change shocks on 90% of bikes which have been produced. As for a 1.5 degree head angle change you can use simple trigonometry to figure out your answer but I trust that you don't actually know what you're trying to achieve. 1.5 degrees is a huge change as far as handling goes.

4) This is not a thing. You can not change shocks to change bike geometry.

5) This is not correct. Options for threaded (quill) stems is drastically reduced since threaded steerers are nearly gone from the industry. Name the dimensions you want from a stem and we'll try and help you find those.

6) You need to define "stem extension". Stems have either length or angle, they do not have extensions.

7) Google.

8) 17" axle to "head tube" means that your fork has [approximately] a 430 mm axle to crown measurement. The term "40 mm fork" is essentially meaningless without definition. If this were a normal suspension fork the term "40 mm" would refer to the amount of suspension travel; however this amount of travel is very unlikely. Suspension travel refers to the maximum amount of movement in the axle to crown direction, commonly this amount is 80+ mm.

9) No, a design such as this would be unsafe and no manufacturer would risk this.

Time to be an a-hole: your needs are not as unique as you're portraying them to be. You keep assuming that you need another 2 degrees of head angle or another 3 degrees of seat angle or some unusual hand position but the truth is that you have no idea what your final dimensions are meant to be. If you want useful feedback we need to change the conversation: you need to start telling us exactly how your current bike is not meeting your needs. However, if you'd like to keep making this impossibly difficult, please go ahead but I think I'm done for a little while.


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

I’m not saying this or that; I’m simply asking what is A) available, B) possible. I will only find out what I need once I start trying many different things to get a feel for each change. 

Few more:

1) What type of seat has the most travel back and forth, are they all stock or three is a specific brand, type, model with slightly longer travel?
2) I was confused by the fork 40, 60, 80mmm measures thinking it had to do with the fork length as well, is there any way to predict if a bike is made more for DH, AL, XC… by measuring the distance of the fork from the axle to the bottom of the head tube. Or by rear shock travel? The reason I’m asking this question is when hunting for an old bike where you might not find exact specs online, if a person measures that length is that any indication to what the purpose of the bike was I mean ball park, since there are so many hybrid designs and mix matches.

3) Do most bike parts interchange from high end bikes, or there is war of protectionism and they all make bikes with specific parts, are there specific brands that stand out more then others on protection. I mean parts like Bottom Bracket, head tube inner diameter, cassette for cranks…..

Cheers


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## TenSpeed (Feb 14, 2012)

This thread is so far beyond repair that it should just be closed. 

UA101 - even after everything that you have posted, along with the other people here, we have no idea what in the hell you are talking about, or are trying to accomplish. Most of what you are trying to do is fairly unsafe as far as the bike frame goes. They are designed with specific measurements in mind. If you take an XC bike and put a 160mm travel fork on it, you are throwing off just about every aspect of the frame geometry, and what the frame was designed for. That makes the bike unsafe.

Have you been to a bike shop yet to test ride the different types of bikes yet? Or are you still here trying to dream up the impossible?


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

UA101 said:


> I will only find out what I need once I start trying many different things to get a feel for each change.


Sorry, Mimi I'm going to keep pushing. That quote above pretty much sums up every piece of advice you've been given so far.

You don't seem to be listening and I'm not sure why I keep responding. Currently I blame Epic's Imperial IPA. That's some good stuff right there.

1) Nearly all saddles will have a similar range of adjustment.

2) Questions like this are why everyone claims to you to be a troll. Short answer is there is no relation. Pandering answer is 80 or less is XC and path, 100 - 150 is a trail bike, and 160 and above is FR, DH. Of course, there are exceptions to ever rule and those guidelines I just gave are essentially outdated and meaningless.

3) This is your first solid question in quite a while. I'm going to put bicycles into three categories: department store, normal stuff, high-end stuff. Department store bikes, such as you can get from Walmart or low-end big-box sport stores are a crap shoot; you have no idea what's going to show up. You are just as likely to get a 1" threaded steerer suspension fork with a name brand shifting set as you are to get a completely unknown and non-standard everything. A department store bike might be compatible with aftermarket parts but you'd have to be pretty familiar with cycling to know for sure. Normal stuff is the bikes you'd get from your LBS or from sites like bikesdirect that doesn't cost a ton. We'd call them anything from entry level to advanced, it's hard to define because marketing terms are deliberately vague. These bikes are usually equipped with a pretty standard option set which, generally speaking, can be exchanged with most bikes of this type. You'd find threaded BBs, 1 1/8" or 1/ 1/8 tapered threadless headsets, and generally standard mounting and routing for things. Then we come to the high-end stuff... the cutting edge of technology sometimes comes with incompatible standards and almost always comes with irrational price tags. For example you could end up with any number of : 4 different bottom brackets some of which are press fit and none are easily cross-compatible, a half dozen rear axle options, a minimum of 4 front axle diameter and width standards, an impossible number of headset options (what happened to Chris King's press fit?) and an uncountable number of proprietary suspension designs which can never be replaced with a simple system (Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Yeti... well pretty much everyone).

TLDR: you can't assume things will fit your bike, you need to do your research.

Anyway, this **** is out of control. I have personally asked you direct questions and you have not answered them. Until you do you can't be helped. Let me list a few which come to mind:

* What is your riding goal? Pavement? Mileage? Schralping the Whole Enchilada? That last one is a great choice.

* What is your exact issue currently?

* What bikes most closely address your current needs?

* What bikes have you test rode? Of course bike shops won't put 3' high bars on a bike for a test ride, are you ****ing kidding me? What bikes have you actually tried and how did they feel? Obviously bikes aren't going to feel right with your unique issues but what aspects of bikes are appealing to you? ****, even if you haven't test rode bikes you must have an idea of what you want out of a bike.

Now here comes the irritated response: IF YOU CAN'T DEFINE WHAT YOU WANT, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT HELP?

The cycling world has terms, standards, and recommendations. Either you play by the rules or you get ignored. Use correct terms (they've been pointed out to you) and follow recommendations. I'm probably two responses from beginning "ignore" and I'm more stubborn than most.


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## Clbryant1981 (Aug 6, 2014)

Get a tricycle with ape hangers. Great advice and suggestions given but you're not wanting to hear them.


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## BadPeopleSkills (Aug 18, 2014)

here you go bro, problem solved.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

OP has stated that he is hoping to write up his finding from what he's learned ,but he won't use the correct terms ,misspells words and ignores the collected wisdom of people that know cycling .He keeps on throwing out ideas that have no reality to his needs or budget. What is he really trying to accomplish?


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## Ronnieron12 (Mar 4, 2014)

This is an obvious troll dude,


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## UA101 (Aug 10, 2014)

Zeb looks like it's just me and you now, you can't give up, we're on the right path I'm learning at the expense of you getting more grey hair. I can see that every time I try to describe what I'm trying to accomplish, the discussion is steered in the wrong direction because people try to suggest what I should get, which is not what I want, so let's compromise here. Once I find answers to my technical questions, I'll decide what to do, what type of bike to get , what type experiments to try out&#8230;.as soon as I know what type of modifications changes are available.

My objective is to find a 26" Full suspension XC type design frame where it can accept components from many different manufacturers and not get stuck with forced upgrades with one company. I will ride it everywhere, pavement sidewalk, parks, forest trail but nothing extreme so no DH or heavy mountain climbing, I guess all around bike.
Questions.

1)	What is the appropriate or common measurement from the handle bars in relation to the front wheel axle like this:

https://i58.tinypic.com/16k14ar.jpg

I realize that fork design and length, angle and type of stem would effect it, but is there a common measurement where you get optimal stability in steering, proper body weight distribution&#8230;Or a limit so maybe if you're right on top of the axle at 90 degree that's the limit?

2)	Back to the measurement standards, is there a short list that you can make for me on the most popular or windily available standards or sizes from only high end manufacturers and OEM or third party component manufacturers?

1)	fork design (threaded, or treadles or other type)
2)	fork steering tube measure, I'm guessing 1 1/8" is the common one, not sure about tapered or not, or anything else
3)	Bottom bracket, design and or just measurements. (Only those that do not require heavy or specialized machinery to change them)
4)	Pivot linkages that can be changed with house tools and do not require heavy machinery
5)	Crank types or deigns or specific measures.
6)	Cassettes both front and back
7)	Derailleur front and back
8)	If you take a bike with a 3x7 set up and want to change it to a 2x9, can you still use the same Derailleurs, so let's say on the back for the 9 gears and simply change the shifter from 7 to 9 or does changing cassettes always requires a specific Derailleur to match the amount of gears?
9)	Rear shock, not so much the design, but how it secures to the frame, assuming same length, maybe there is a certain length that is the most widely popular for XC frames and also maybe there is a wide selection of frames that offer this length as well.
10)	Front and back axles type or specific measurement.

11)	maybe I missed something, please add

12) If its way too much for you to write or the answer is too general, simply say too general or at least maybe write a little bit.

13)	As for my spelling improper terminology, we'll edit and correct it later on once I get to the finish line, I will write a separate thread with all the experiments and without the extra bull crap, again my health issues do not permit me to sit in front of computer for too long or do a lot of research, so I rely on your answers.

Cheers


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

UA101 said:


> My osteopath said get on the bike but with tall handle bars to keep up a straight posture
> 
> after two weeks or so of riding starting to have spine issues must be the geometry of my bike.
> 
> ...


I'm bored I just got back from an early round of golf followed by a satisfying trail riding and I'm feeling great so I figure I'll join Zebrahum and take another look at this thread.

First of all a saddle is not a chair you don't sit you rest. If you have any health problem and you need to sit you can not be riding. Riding require you to engage your core muscles. Like I said to you in the other forum, what you need is not in your budget even if you DIY. If you come to the forum and said I don't want production bike I want what I want spare no expense, then we are talking.

Anything you are planning to do cost a lot of money, plush suspension, longer travel fork, adjustable bottom bracket, adjustable geometry.

What you posted here made no sense, I wonder if you are on the level. You came across as a lazy a$$ with my way or highway attitude and bunch of excuses. You don't know or understand the sports, yet demanded people to understand you. Mountain biking is the most physically taxing segment of the sport.

You can not have laid back geometry, yep that's right that's what you've been asking for, and expect it to perform well on the uphill, it's not possible.

You need to take this post to the frame building forum. Someone there may enjoy your sob story and arrogant attitude and throw you some bones.

Save up some cash and get a stepping bike it would do 90% of what you've been asking already, the other 10% is your can do attitude.



























Still insisting on bicycle? check out the adjustable bike
Grow bikes get bigger as your child does
Flexibility + Functionality: Adjustable Bike









You may also want to look into a folding bike and just adjust the handlebar. None are in your budget but it's possible. 


























May be this is what you have in mind








or this




















or this


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## Geralt (Jul 11, 2012)

You missed this one, mimi.





Street Stepper Bikes | California Distributors for Street Stepper Bikes.

$4900 though. Yikes!


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Geralt said:


> You missed this one, mimi.
> 
> $4900 though. Yikes!


Dude! you are so lucky, I checked their website and there's no full suspension model, otherwise you'd have cost me over 6K That's a cool ideal.


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## TenSpeed (Feb 14, 2012)

UA101 said:


> I can see that every time I try to describe what I'm trying to accomplish, the discussion is steered in the wrong direction because people try to suggest what I should get, which is not what I want, so let's compromise here.


You want advice and help, but when you get that, you don't like what is said, so you continue on.

I will ask again, I think for the third time now. Have you gone to a regular bike shop, and ridden any bikes that they have in stock?


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