# Info on Soma/Tange/IRD adjustable dropouts? (Analog,Juice, B-Side, Wolverine)



## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Does anyone have any info for the Soma/Tange/Ird sliding dropouts? I just obtained an Analog frame and am curious if there are any torque specs, maintenance directions, or areas of concern for these things. There was no info included with the frame, nothing on the Soma website, and I emailed Soma and IRD for direction over a week ago with no response. I did look through a plethora of posting here on MTBR using the search function, but did not see anyone address the dropouts.


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## Erik_A (Aug 30, 2008)

Old thread, but, does anyone know if there are thru-axle adapters for these Tange/IRD adjustable dropouts?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

if they're compatible with Paragon dropouts then i think you can buy TA sliders for ~$30 per side. i would check with Soma.


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## Evan Bacon (May 18, 2009)

Any of these will fit.

Sliding - all - www.paragonmachineworks.com


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

if anyone is interested- 25 Nm on those bolts. I etched that number onto the top of one of my dropouts so I would not have to look it up again.


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

And get the Titanium combo cap screws Paragon offers...will put up with torquing down better than the steel ones.

By the way, for closure on the original questions I had that started this thread:

I eventually received info on the Soma/Tange/IRD sliding dropouts. I sent several emails to Soma, IRD, Merry Sales Co., and to American Cyclery in San Francisco (which is pretty much Soma.)

*Soma* never replied to several emails I sent to the email addresses on their website...

*IRD* replied a month after my original request for info with:


> "_Your best option would be to your frame to an experienced bike mechanic. They can check the bolt tension and dropout alignment._"


Yeah...lots of help....

*Merry Sales Co.* forwarded my emails to *Tange* and "Hank" replied with:



> "_Dear XXX, glad to know you.
> 
> I think your question is how to adjust the sliding piece ?
> I don't really follow this. adjusting for ??
> ...


I replied with:

"_Good morning Hank,

I would like to know if there is a torque specification for tightening the two bolts that attach the sliding pieces to the frame. I would also like to know if there is any setup/maintenance suggested for these units (lubrication, Loc-Tite, etc.). I understand the sliding piece tensions the chain for single speed applications, but if you are using a geared setup is it preferable to run the sliding piece all the way forward, all the way to the rear, in the middle, or it doesn't matter.

It would be a nice thing for instructions/specs for these dropouts to be included with the frame (I understand the Analog is now a retired model, but you do still use these dropouts on other models).

Thank you,
_"

Hank replied with:



> "_Hi Richard,
> we suggest torque is 6Nm ~ 8Nm.
> the sliding piece is made out from Aluminum. so in fact you don't need to have special maintenance
> 
> ...


That torque spec seemed a little weak....especially compared with the data I received the day before:

The day prior to receiving the initial reply from "Hank" at Tange I received a reply back from Tyson at *American Cyclery*:



> "_Hi there,
> 
> No I have never come across any instructions from Soma or anyone who makes this type of drop-out
> 
> ...


The Paragon info was gold. It also got me to their website where I found the dropout options available for my frame (so I can eventually "upgrade" to through axle, single speed, or Rohloff) and discovered the Ti cap screws.

Oh, that PDF FAQ on Paragon's dropouts has this as the torque spec (*mack_turtle posted the spec - thanks mate*):

"_The official torque specifications for our M8 x 18 (sliding dropouts) and M8 x 16 (Rocker dropouts) steel bolts are *24 to 26 N-m, 2.4 to 2.6 Kg-m, or 17 to 19 foot pounds*. A word of caution: unless you have a brand new 5 mm wrench, at the upper range of these values there is a possibility of rounding out the socket head on a steel bolt. This isn't the case with our titanium bolts that can be torqued at least 10% more than the above values. Always use our 304 stainless steel washers with the bolts; they spread the load over a larger area, hold the parts together better, and keep your frame from getting damaged from repeated tightening and loosening of the bolts._"


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ good info, and a little scary.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Does anyone know the sliding range on these dropouts?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Bokchoi- sucks that it took so long to get real answers. Both of my bikes are Somas and I like working with them because they were good about communicating with me. I went to Paragon's site for that info.

I am pretty sure Paragon also makes 12x142 dropouts and dropouts without a derailleur hanger if you are dedicated to the SS thing. I think those same dropouts are used on the Redline Monocogs and some Kona frames.

I hate this about the cycling industry: so much careful engineering goes into these products yet some companies can't consistently provide tech info to consumers, which means bike shops generally can't get it either. How are you supposed to trust your LBS with stuff like torque specs if they don't know them either?


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## classVI (Jun 22, 2016)

Does anyone have any experience converting their soma wolverine to 142x12 Thru axle using paragon inserts? I've recently converted mine, but I am getting some lateral play from the wheel, as if the thru axle is not fully clamped down - but the threads are fully engaged. I am wondering if there's a spacer needed on the paragon inserts, or some trick to DT swiss Thru axle engagement


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

Hey, just an FYI here guys, Paragon Machine Works does not make anything for Soma. I know they recommend our inserts when using their sliding dropouts but Paragon makes no guarantee that they will work with anything other than Paragon dropouts and so far we have had more than a couple customers email and call us about their Wolverine bikes having slipping issues. We are sorry this is happening but our stuff only goes on handmade bikes and Soma make their stuff in Asia somewhere. Please contact Soma about this so they are aware of the problem.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Asian bikes are not "hand made"? Just because something is made by hand belonging to people in another country and not the "artisan" hands of domestic bike manufacturers does not mean they are not hand made. That's splitting hairs and not important, but I find it demeaning that Asian factory workers are thought of this way. It's an elitist and snobby perspective.

Didn't mean to derail this thread. I have a Juice and I always assumed I could use PMW sliders on my frame. Good to know.


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

Sorry. To clarify, the are made in a factory somewhere in Asia. They are not hand made.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I would guess they're made by Asian hands in a production line environment, but still hand made.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Instead of arguing over the point could we agree that Paragon does not supply the overseas mass producers and the problem is better solved by addressing it with Soma?


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Supposedly the dropouts are by Tange/IRD. Soma claims these dropouts are compatible with Paragon Machine Works replacement dropout inserts. Looking on the website for the info on my own frame model (Analog) I see that stated plain as day:









I have not tried to use any of Paragon's inserts with my frame yet, so I don't know how things will work.

Perhaps the ones people are complaining about on the Wolverines are not made to the same spec as the Paragon dropouts/inserts? It doesn't take much to throw something off by too large or too small sizing...an example on how that works would be the experience I had trying to get the crown race of a FSA headset to fit on a Manitou fork...spec said it would fit but the thing would not slam onto the fork steerer when I was building my bike up.

I requested and was sent the engineering drawings for both the headset and the fork, including the +/- tolerances expected from manufacturing (high and low from nominal spec)...I precision measured (I have access to a metrology lab) both and discovered the race and the fork steerer were both in spec but at the exact high side of the "still in spec" tolerance...both of which actually put them over on the tight fit of a crown race on a steerer tube. I had to mill down the fork steerer (bought fork from overseas so return was not an easy option) a tiny bit to get the fit.

Perhaps that is what is going on here, or perhaps it is out of spec a whole lot (which is the norm for "Finest Chinese Quality").


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

This is a bike being assembled in mass production overseas:



This is someone handbuilding a bike:


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> Instead of arguing over the point could we agree that Paragon does not supply the overseas mass producers and the problem is better solved by addressing it with Soma?


Addressing it with Soma? Good luck...read the experience I had with Soma/IRD/Merry Sales Co./Tange that I listed in this thread several posts ago. Soma NEVER answered my original request...unless you consider that American Cyclery (who for all intents and purposes is Soma) replied. Perhaps you should start with them...best way would be to go down to the corner of Frederick and Stanyan in San Francisco and walk into American Cyclery demanding answers.


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Rebeccaheis said:


> This is a bike being assembled in mass production overseas:
> 
> 
> 
> This is someone handbuilding a bike:


Rebecca, kind of apples to oranges your videos are. The first one (Giant) only shows the assembly of components on an already completed frame, the second (Colnago) shows the assembly of the frame itself. Those are two different mechanical/manufacturing processes.

What the other posters in this thread are talking about concerns the second process (Colnago video) where the frame itself is being assembled. The statement of "handbuilt" being in that frame assembly process does Soma's supplier construct the frame using human frame builders welding the frame tubes together or does that supplier utilize automation (robots) to weld together the frame tubes?

If you consider it, how much of the machining is actually done by hand over at Paragon? How much is via CNC or other automated processing machine? (Not bashing Paragon in any way, I love the work your shop does...it is pure art! Just stating a question on perspective).


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

Yep. The specs, tolerances, etc have to be exactly right, to the smallest degree. Paragon spends hours, weeks and years gauging what works and this is part of why people spend the money on these parts. They work and they work well and if they don't, we will replace them in a second with no hesitation. You can find the drawings of all of our parts on our website Home - Paragon Machine Works. You can compare these to what are on your bike to make sure if something is going to work or not.


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

THis is a funny thread, everyone. Maybe I need to get on these more often but now I am really behind at work. No, Paragon does not hand make their stuff. We do not claim to. We design and _machine_ everything on premises and ship stuff to people all around the world who take them out of the box, sit down, and weld them by hand until, viola, a frame is complete and exact to spec. And i apologize that my comments are all out of sync. I guess I do not know how to reply just to one post.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

curious, why has Soma been publishing this information for so many years without challenge from PMW? or have you asked them to redact it in that time?

this is not the fault of PMW, but I have to wonder why this has not been changed all this time.


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

Well, the fact of the matter is is that a lot of people have sliders on their bikes that look like the ones we make (Redline, Kona, etc) and I spend a lot of time answering questions that people who have these bikes ask as far as if our stuff will work on their bikes and the answer is always that we do not know. We do not make the parts so we cannot guarantee anything. A few people working for Redline actually tell customers we make their sliders and as much as we have tried to contact them and tell them to please not tell people this (it may just be some random guy answering their emails), they never respond. Again, it might just be some random guy that doesn't know but the emails from people with Redlines are endless. I tell people contacting Paragon to look at the drawings we offer and do their own research. I also tell them to get on some forums (like this) and check if anyone else has had problems. If someone finds something that works, great! They are stoked with their bike. If they don't, no money lost. My purpose here in fact is to save people some dollars before they buy something that does not seem to be working. We have now asked Soma to remove reference to our parts since we have received a number of complaints. How frustrating is it when you have a sweet bike that no longer works right?? It's a damn sad, sad situation that I want you to avoid. As of today, after yet another unhappy customer contacted us, Soma has agreed to no longer mention our parts on their site so we will see. Again, this seemed to have all started with the Wolverine. If someone has managed to use our parts successfully, that is great. I don't know about you but I just want to ride my bike, right?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Rebeccaheis said:


> Again, this seemed to have all started with the Wolverine. If someone has managed to use our parts successfully, that is great. I don't know about you but I just want to ride my bike, right?


thanks for chiming in and offering your insight here.

I wonder if Paragon inserts are reasonably compatible with the Wolverine frame and the problem is the home mechanics attempting to install them. is it a fitment issue or slippage issue? or don't you know?

I don't know why but it seems so many people are mystified by these things and will go to great lengths in an attempt to prevent slippage like adding all manor of weird hardware, over torquing, Loctite, lock washers, springs, locking nuts, etc.

i bought a used cross frame last year and PO had done most of that ^ only to have 3 of the 4 bolts freeze in the drop outs and decided to sell the frame. the bolts were seriously abused and rounded out. I managed to free 2 of the 3 frozen bolts and had to drill out the last one. i found replacement drop outs online and replaced all the hardware. i was kind of expecting some sort of chronic slipping problem based on what i had seen from the PO, but with only a little dab of grease on the threads of the bolts, torque to spec, and went for a ride with no issues. still going strong 6 months later. I'm 205 lbs and it's set up single speed, I'm going to go out on a limb and say PO just didn't know how to properly use sliding drop outs. I wonder if it's stuff like this that causes a lot of the problems for people?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

the adjustment screws and the big bolts tightened to 25Nm on my Juice have never slipped. the only reason I would replace them would be if I bent my hanger (that thing is thick!) or felt the need to go 142x12 (seems overkill on a steel hardtail).

I always assumed that the slider design was some sort of opern-source design and PMW happened to make really nice ones. I have told people to look into PMW sliders for their Kona, Soma, and Redline frames but it turns out that was not the best advice. glad to hear Soma has finally taken responsibility for this. I have had to contact manufacturers about misinformation on their customer- and shop-facing literature before and it's a huge source of frustration for all.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

Soma definitely shouldn't imply that PMW makes their sliders, though... If you actually looked at their sliders when you assembled your bike, you'd notice they have TANGE printed on them. At least mine did.

And while Soma is mum on the issue, I'm pretty sure PMW threatened to sue them for using the split drop out design on the first run of Wolverines.

That being said, in spite of how amazing I find PMW's products to be. I've started to find Rebecca's "A bicycle is only hand made if it's made by white, american hands. you only deserve our products if you can spend $5,000 on a hand made artisinal bicycle, EVERYONE ELSE IS GARBAGE."

Let me say this. As someone who's had a chance to work on a lot of bikes that use Paragon's standard without giving Paragon any money for it. THE PARAGON SLIDER IS EXTREMELY COMPATIBLE WITH THE WOLVERINE. Insanely compatible. God it's just perfect for it. I recommend everyone buy paragon sliders for their Wolverine. 

That being said, the Wolverine is built by mere mortals. Mortals who were not afforded the gift of being born into Trumps America. They do a very good job. But being as they were implied to be racially inferior because they were born in Taiwan, maybe they don't make the bike as perfectly as the guy who takes two years to build your bike. There will be flaws. Some people may get a frameset with less than perfect tolerances. And Soma should handle that, Not PMW. We get that.

But making an account just to say "We did all the R&D on these easy to produce components. But you aren't buying ours. We are the expert on these types of components, but we wish to refuse to help you because we're not making money off of them. We feel like your bike is not even a bicycle, because it was not finely crafted by American Artisans" ...Just to say that? It comes off really unpleasant.

But don't worry, I love your products and will happily throw money at them in the future, even if my bicycle is garbage that doesn't deserve them.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I know that's not what Rebecca meant, but it came off as "PMW products are not meant for you plebes, so don't put them on your inferior Asian frames." As a person who has worked in customer service roles for many years - and paid as such, hence my frugal choices to buy Asian-made frames - I know people are thin-skinned and the representative of a company should be aware of how her words affect the image of her company. However, it sounds like this has been a source of frustration for a long time, so I understand the tone having an edge to it!


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

You guys...Rebecca only stated "We are sorry this is happening but our stuff only goes on handmade bikes and Soma make their stuff in Asia somewhere." There was nothing in that statement that made any claim on the quality of the Asian-made products, the quality of the employees work in those Asian locations, or any statement about any of the other things that you all posted (Agwan! Mack!)...no claims or statements against any other race, color, creed, etc. Nothing about the color of the builder's hands. No political statements either.

I know you say "...but it came off as"...to you and your way of thinking it came off as you see it, take the words in pure black and white it does not even infer anything...YOU did that. You made that connection in your own heads, you made this about all what you said. Rebecca did not.

Everyone is too ready to jump on the hate-wagon or too ready to assume someone else is already riding it.

Seems quite like this guy:






Lighten up Francis.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

I didn't get miffed until she copy/pasted that same sentiment into like, three or four threads. 

Then she used "Hand Made" wrong. Soma's are hand made. They're just hand made without customization. In a different country. With somewhat lesser skill by hands that are paid substantially less.

They're not Artisinal.

Also, nothing PMW makes is hand made. Having a machine make it is part of what makes their products so reliable and precise.

It was the combination of copy/paste, miss use of hand made, and then finally the "THis is a funny thread, everyone. Maybe I need to get on these more often but now I am really behind at work."

When industry reps get on here to squelch gossip, and then immediately complain that "that there inter-wubs is taking me away from the real world of bike shoppery. Them geeko boys on that silly thing" It's grating. Whether or not you intend it to be, It is. I work in this industry too. Our jobs are fun and awesome and not particularly taxing, from a cognitive perspective. If using the internet to represent your company is burdensome. Find someone at your company that won't find it a burden to do so.

Because this is the internet, and we are all thin skinned princesses here.

Edit: Hate? I've verbalized multiple times that I love PMW's products and will continue to support them. In the situation at hand It's clear they're not the ones at fault. But I'll call it like I see it when I see someone being disingenuous.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Not sure why people are giving PMW a hard time. They make a quality product that hundreds of builders around the world use. And they guarantee that the products will work. When a mass producer uses a knock-off product it is on the buyer to figure out what works and doesn't work. It isn't Paragons problem to figure out. If you don't like it buy a handmade bike that uses paragon components, not a handmade bike that uses knock-off parts.


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## Rebeccaheis (Jun 9, 2014)

Thanks for trying to end the witch hunt. I appreciate it. I had to watch that Monty Python skit this morning and it made me laugh (



). Paragon does not have a patent on sliders and no, we have never tried to sue anyone. That is some serious misinformation. We have no idea if someone is making their sliders to our specs/measurements or not so when I get a really frustrated customer on the line, all I can do is have them looks at our drawings and compare them to our parts and see if something will work. We so not know if companies change their specs from year to year or model to model and this is where it gets tricky. Calling brand B about your brand A bike will only get you so far. I can only help so much but I know for us, it does Paragon a great disservice to complain about something we make without contacting us first. We take these things very seriously. My point of all of this is please contact the person who manufactured your bike so they can do the trouble shooting and know where there may be problems. I also realize that we have been contacted by a lot or people who are have tried to email or phone a company with no results. I have never left an email unanswered but if I read some comments up above, it sounds a bit like damned if you do, damned it you don't. We are a very small company that is slammed all the time so yes, we have to concentrate on what we make and can only go so far with other brands. I did not expect that back lash and yes, I did post this on one other thread but we have had such an uptick in these calls lately that we decided to make a bit of a push. We also posted stuff on our social media this week. In a last ditch effort to hopefully help people with their sliders on any bike, which was my original intention, I recommend going to our FAQ page and looking at "useful information for people with adjustable dropouts: And thanks to all of you for just seeing this for what it is. I know most people reading this do. FAQs - Paragon Machine Works


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

How is it a witch hunt? I repeatedly said PMW makes fantastic products and Soma totally looks at fault?

And no, a cease and desist is definitely not an attempt to sue, It's a way to let someone know you will pursue legal action that most likely would be a lawsuit if they don't stop doing something. It's not "misinformation" for me to say I think that. If I say "I consider this a possibility" It does not equal "This is what they did for sure!"

I'll say it for like, the fifth time in this thread. PMW makes great stuff. PMW shouldn't have to do customer support for other companies. Soma was in the wrong to imply that people should give PMW money for PMW's parts which are EXTREMELY compatible, but not purpose built for the task. It is fair for PMW to expect Soma to deal with the compatibilty complaints.

I have PMW parts on my Soma and they are absolutely fantastic and fit/work perfectly. I don't regret buying them. the quality on them is so very much higher than the stock Sliders and bolts.

I don't even mind that PMW shipped me those parts in dirty newspapers, frankly I found that charming and an inventive way to minimize waste.

What I do mind is someone effectively saying handmade bicycles aren't handmade unless they're expensive hand made bicycles. And then having that person tell the internet how silly and inconveniencing the internet is.

If you think having anyone speaking oppositionally to you in any way is "OH WHAT A BACKLASH", then you better not go outside. 

because like 1.5 people took issue with what you said. 
It literally took fives of ones of minutes to think about those replys.

That's not a backlash.


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## joshhan (Apr 1, 2011)

Agwan said:


> I don't even mind that PMW shipped me those parts in dirty newspapers, frankly I found that charming and an inventive way to minimize waste.


Awesome. They will go right into my charcoal chimney starter!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Will the PMW bottle opener work with beer I have imported from outside of 'murica. I really like the looks of their opener, but I dont want to be stuck drinking bud or bud light all the time.


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## somacisco (Aug 17, 2004)

Hello there.... official SomaFab reply here:
Like Rebecca, I am usually too busy to participate in these forums even though sometimes it provides good feedback.
- PMW did not threaten to sue. They have been very cool. But they have every right to raise a stink with us if we say their parts work on our (Tange) dropouts and customers complain to them that they aren't working well. They make THEIR sliders to work with THEIR dropouts, not someone else's. They work hard to build their reputation and we had unintentionally threatened that. To show goodwill, we have agreed to take off any mention of our dropouts being compatible with their sliders. 
--If you have experienced slippage with our sliders or PMW sliders on our frames, try adding a washer under the bolts and add some light duty locktite to the threads. You might even try a little carbon friction paste between the slider and dropout.
--We had one recent customer concerned with with lateral play while riding our Wolverine with PMW sliders and may have voiced it online. That had NOTHING to do with dropout incompatibility or any deficiency in Soma or PMW products: The bolts at the belt-drive frame split had come loose and made the frame flex. 
-- Bokchoicowboy: What can we say regarding e-mails? There was an extended period of time we struggled without a person dedicated to answering the e-mails. We do have a qualified person on it now and hope to continually improve our customer service.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

Cool, Keep in mind both of your companies kick ass and I hope to support both of them in the future.


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

somacisco said:


> Hello there.... official SomaFab reply here:
> Like Rebecca, I am usually too busy to participate in these forums even though sometimes it provides good feedback.
> - PMW did not threaten to sue. They have been very cool. But they have every right to raise a stink with us if we say their parts work on our (Tange) dropouts and customers complain to them that they aren't working well. They make THEIR sliders to work with THEIR dropouts, not someone else's. They work hard to build their reputation and we had unintentionally threatened that. To show goodwill, we have agreed to take off any mention of our dropouts being compatible with their sliders.
> --If you have experienced slippage with our sliders or PMW sliders on our frames, try adding a washer under the bolts and add some light duty locktite to the threads. You might even try a little carbon friction paste between the slider and dropout.
> ...


Thanks for stepping up Somacisco. Love your products, love PMW products, been a long-time user and fan of Tange products, I even have a place in my heart for IRD (back in the day they got me out of a jam with an 80's Peugeot PXN-10 that needed a Swiss thread BB...IRD had cups for that!.)

Here is a question for you: If Paragon Machine Works inserts may or may not work with the Tange/IRD adjustable dropouts on Soma frames, do you have Tange/IRD replacement inserts? Something that is the equivalent of the Paragon slider inserts that allow one to change to a 12mm Maxle or Shimano or DT Swiss 12 mm thru-axle, Rohloff, or Shimano Direct Mount Hanger?


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

They do work. They work just fine. In my experience they work better than the Tange sliders. PMW doesn't have a patent on those sliders (seemingly to keep it open source?) So the dimensions are something anyone is allowed to copy.

PMW just doesn't want to be treated like customer support for something they didn't make, design or implement.

They make a slider, it totally works. The slider definitely won't be at fault. But if it doesn't work, It's might be Soma's fault. Or more likely, the person who assembles the frameset for you locally is at fault.

So they want you to deal with Soma or the guy who doesn't understand Righty-Tighty.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Back to my actual question regarding these dropouts: does anyone know the adjustment range? Soma or PMW travel would be fine


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

seat_boy said:


> Back to my actual question regarding these dropouts: does anyone know the adjustment range? Soma or PMW travel would be fine


Now that is just too funny. I can check when I get home tonight


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I didn't have time to remove my dropout, but this should give you a good idea. I always run it slammed or pushed back slightly in single-speed mode. I kind of wish they had made the frame start closer with more clearance cor a shorter CS, because I can't imagine riding with the dropout at the back half of the slot.










Soma: (if you're still reading this) where can I get Tange 142-12 sliders for mu Juice? BTI does not have them.


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## 5power (Jul 26, 2010)

I'm looking to go 142x12 with a dtswiss axle and was wondering if this is the product i need. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/...right-side-sliding-hanger-dt-swiss-12-mm.html

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## classVI (Jun 22, 2016)

yup - you need these parts, ( B4037, B4027, & DT001 (last item is the DT swiss TA, in case u do not have)


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## 5power (Jul 26, 2010)

classVI said:


> yup - you need these parts, ( B4037, B4027, & DT001 (last item is the DT swiss TA, in case u do not have)


Thank you for the quick reply... can't wait to finish this build.


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## ShawnsSOMA29er (Apr 24, 2017)

Thanks. I just finished my Soma Juice build and have the thru axle front fork. My Azonic Outlaw rims can handle a thru axle in the rear so I may switch mine over to this.


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## ShawnsSOMA29er (Apr 24, 2017)

*My fininished 2017 Soma Juice 29er SS - Gates Carbon Belt Drive*

View attachment 1135607


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I don't want to watch the video because I know the workers are treated like slaves 

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


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## mwv (Jan 24, 2012)

Picard said:


> I don't want to watch the video because I know the workers are treated like slaves
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


It's Taiwan. I'm not sure if you have been to Taiwan or know anything about Taiwan but they are certainly not treated like slaves.

If I could have anyone weld my frame it would be one of the skilled workers that are in Taiwan. They are pretty much the best in the world at the craft.

It's a pretty progressive country and from the looks of the area in which these companies reside they are quite good jobs to have. It's a wealthy country. I cycled there for a month in April/May.

On topic, I cant say any of this makes me feel good about the Wolverine I was considering purchasing.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

mwv said:


> On topic, I cant say any of this makes me feel good about the Wolverine I was considering purchasing.


what makes your uncomfortable about the Wolverine? A friend of mine built up a Wolverine with Paragon 12x142 sliders and it works fine.


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## Singletrackd (May 3, 2015)

Just dropping by to let everyone know that Soma still hasn't got someone to respond to emails and a Tange rear dropout is in no way comparable to a paragon rear dropout

Anyone that rides a soma frame hard will quickly find out that they have an inferior dropout design. So far I have cracked 2 frames in one year with cracks in the exact same location on the rear dropout. The Tange dropouts are poorly designed and are too long and create a fulcrum where its attached to the rear seat stays.

I have NEVER heard of someone with paragon dropouts cracking a rear dropout.

There is a real reason a soma juice frame cost so much less than it's competition.....it's trash

If you ride a soma hard I guarantee you will break the tange dropouts. They even slightly redesigned my newest frames dropouts and they still broke within a month!
The attached pictures are where your frame WILL break if your ride it hard


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## mwv (Jan 24, 2012)

Several things. That they don't make or sell any other sliders that they can vouch for. Why even have it? Mostly that they really don't seem to know what they are doing or care. That 

It would be a great bike without those pointless dropouts IMO.


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## mwv (Jan 24, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> what makes your uncomfortable about the Wolverine? A friend of mine built up a Wolverine with Paragon 12x142 sliders and it works fine.


Several things. That they don't make or sell any other sliders that they can vouch for. Why even have it? Mostly that they really don't seem to know what they are doing or care. That

It would be a great bike without those pointless dropouts IMO.


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## Singletrackd (May 3, 2015)

mwv said:


> It would be a great bike without those pointless dropouts IMO.


definitely agree(except about the juice) it's to the point that when my mist recent frame broke I was seriously debating dropping it off at a custom builder to have the trash tange dropouts cut off and some real paragon sliders welded on.

it's a shame but I guess it's a huge improvement from the previous juice design that if ridden hard would snap at the headtube


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Singletrackd said:


> definitely agree(except about the juice) it's to the point that when my mist recent frame broke I was seriously debating dropping it off at a custom builder to have the trash tange dropouts cut off and some real paragon sliders welded on.
> 
> it's a shame but I guess it's a huge improvement from the previous juice design that if ridden hard would snap at the headtube


When I bought my Juice I was looking at Ti frames from a couple of builders. In the end, consultation with the builders resulted in both of them basically telling me the same thing: If you break frames a lot, get a steel frame. Anyone with a couple brain cells and a welder can fix one, while Ti.....not so much. As a result, I bought the Juice instead of something Ti. So, if I were in your situation, I would do exactly what you're talking about. Go get the cancer cut out of that bike and get back on it. I've been keeping an eye on my dropouts since you posted your first breakage, but mine still look fine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Singletrackd (May 3, 2015)

Cotharyus said:


> When I bought my Juice I was looking at Ti frames from a couple of builders. In the end, consultation with the builders resulted in both of them basically telling me the same thing: If you break frames a lot, get a steel frame. Anyone with a couple brain cells and a welder can fix one, while Ti.....not so much. As a result, I bought the Juice instead of something Ti. So, if I were in your situation, I would do exactly what you're talking about. Go get the cancer cut out of that bike and get back on it. I've been keeping an eye on my dropouts since you posted your first breakage, but mine still look fine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


just to be clear I don't have a history of breaking bikes, I have had both steel, carbon and aluminum single speed frames before and have never broken a frame other than the Juice......rode a no name Chinese carbon hardtail for 2 years and never had issues

Just trying to point out that it is a design issue and can happen to anyone that rides the bike hard enough


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

Bumping this. I have a v3 B-side that recently had a similar rear dropout issue - the disc brake side caused the dropout to act as a fulcrum and rotate upwards. I'm eligible for a crash replacement and noticed that they have since re-released a new design on the new Riff and Juice frames. Worth replacing, or should I look elsewhere?

I'm not an overly aggressive rider either so am reluctant to spend the money on a replacement as it seems more of a function of design/quality control than riding.


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

Does Soma not respond to emails? A few follow up emails sent over the past 2 weeks with no response...


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Not in my experience.



loren90 said:


> Does Soma not respond to emails? A few follow up emails sent over the past 2 weeks with no response...


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

loren90 said:


> Does Soma not respond to emails? A few follow up emails sent over the past 2 weeks with no response...


I had a hard time getting a response. More than once.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

It helps to join the Facebook group and push the point.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Agwan said:


> It helps to join the Facebook group and push the point.


A rather sad truth. The only way the company responds to a warranty issue is if it made very public.

I prefer companies that do the right thing and stand behind their products.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

Yeah. I love my Wolverine. But this is probably the last time I buy a Soma. It's really conflicting to have a company make damn near the perfect bikes for you... But have such poor customer service that you're nervous Everytime you spend a cent on their products.

We need a company that combines the better steel, and more thoughtful Geo of Soma, with the better service, better frame prep and better investment castings of Surly.

I may just save up for a Gunnar.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I've had three Gunnars, representing maybe 10 years of production ('99, '04, '09ish), and they all featured lousy paint quality and slipping seat posts. The '09 didn't ride all that well, either.

I'm thinking about trying a Curto custom for my next bike. His prices haven't changed in years ($1000/frame), the point where a custom MUSA frame is barely more than a Taiwan production frame.



Agwan said:


> Yeah. I love my Wolverine. But this is probably the last time I buy a Soma. It's really conflicting to have a company make damn near the perfect bikes for you... But have such poor customer service that you're nervous Everytime you spend a cent on their products.
> 
> We need a company that combines the better steel, and more thoughtful Geo of Soma, with the better service, better frame prep and better investment castings of Surly.
> 
> ...


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

seat_boy said:


> I'm thinking about trying a Curto custom for my next bike. His prices haven't changed in years ($1000/frame), the point where a custom MUSA frame is barely more than a Taiwan production frame.


I bought a frame from him. You should just be aware that he's kind of difficult to deal with. He doesn't reply to e-mails, and whatever time frame he gives you, double it and add a bit more for good measure.

Kind of a frustrating process. Even worse when your new frame finally arrives and the rear hub spacing is 137mm. Oops. I had to find a local shop that had a frame table and pay to have it fixed. Luckily it didn't mess up the powder coat.

I guess I'm saying you get what you pay for. I'd find someone that will give you what you want. I didn't get that.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

I work for a Gunnar/Waterford, Seven and Parlee dealer. The Gunnars I've seen come across my stand have been mostly pretty great. Though I have seen some imperfections for sure. Definitely in the paint.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## 839138 (Jun 7, 2018)

Hm never heard any responses back from Soma - will likely look elsewhere for a frame replacement.


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## mtbkr123 (Nov 30, 2006)

I've been using PMW sliders on my Brownstone Juice for years, no issues at all, I also
use the bolt kit (steel) and have had no slipping.. I torque the bolts to 6-8 nm.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

if the bolts you have are the same size as what PMW makes, 6-8Nm is awfully low. PMW recommends 24-26 Nm, which is 17-19 foot-pounds. those are pretty big bolts, so they can take it. I would be afraid of a mere 6-8Nm not being nearly enough.

https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/files/FAQAdjDrops(1).pdf



PMW said:


> The official torque specifications for our M8 x 18 (sliding dropouts) and M8
> x 16 (Rocker dropouts) steel bolts are 24 to 26 N-m, 2.4 to 2.6 Kg-m, or 17
> to 19 foot pounds. A word of caution: unless you have a brand new 5 mm
> wrench, at the upper range of these values there is a possibility of rounding
> ...


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## slimdog (May 28, 2011)

Just had to chime in on this thread. I have a 2015 Ritchey P-29er with Tange IRD droputs.
The drop outs have cracked. I would not recommend buying any bike with these dropouts.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Four years and the sliders gave out before the frame did, not bad. You can probably replace the inserts for pretty cheap and give that frame new life. Most likely, you can make Paragon inserts work.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ agreed. A single failure isn't necessarily an indication of poor quality. It's a mountain bike, **** happens. 

Could have been many contributing factors.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

slimdog said:


> Just had to chime in on this thread. I have a 2015 Ritchey P-29er with Tange IRD droputs.
> The drop outs have cracked. I would not recommend buying any bike with these dropouts.


Just to clarify, is is the black part (or similar) in the picture below, or did the slots(s) in the frame itself break?










If it is the black part, you can replace one for $30 or two for $60. https://store.interlocracing.com/irslrandle.html

What was the mode of failure?

I'm thinking of getting a frame that has these, so this isn't idle curiousity.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

If a frame comes with the sliders for a 142mm thru-axle, can I use a 135mm quick-release with the above-pictured substitution? (If so, does it automatically accommodate the 7mm difference in spacing, or would this require a different frame-size?)


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Singletrackd said:


> Just dropping by to let everyone know that Soma still hasn't got someone to respond to emails and a Tange rear dropout is in no way comparable to a paragon rear dropout
> 
> Anyone that rides a soma frame hard will quickly find out that they have an inferior dropout design. So far I have cracked 2 frames in one year with cracks in the exact same location on the rear dropout. The Tange dropouts are poorly designed and are too long and create a fulcrum where its attached to the rear seat stays.
> 
> ...


Oy. Thanks for posting that. If it is any consolation, I think you just saved me from a major headache. (I was considering the Soma Wolverine (V.4.0)).


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

wgscott said:


> If a frame comes with the sliders for a 142mm thru-axle, can I use a 135mm quick-release with the above-pictured substitution? (If so, does it automatically accommodate the 7mm difference in spacing, or would this require a different frame-size?)


142 and 135 are essentially the same spacing. The way the axle attaches is totally different, so if the sliders were attached for 135, the 142 sliders will fit a 142 axle with no modifications.

From my understanding, 148, is a totally different animal. Most of the time, the frame needs to be designed for 148, unless you're OK with kludging it together.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

According to PMW nomenclature, the steel part welded onto the frame that allows the system to slide is a "sliding adjustable dropout." This is the part that many people have broken on Soma frames. It's a flawed design, but it seems like an easy fix for a skilled welder.

The part that bolts on and slides is an adjustable dropout _insert_." These are pretty solid and hard to really break.

The new Soma Juice appears to have the same inserts but a totally revised IRD Broski dropout that looks much stronger. Time will tell.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> 142 and 135 are essentially the same spacing. The way the axle attaches is totally different, so if the sliders were attached for 135, the 142 sliders will fit a 142 axle with no modifications.
> 
> From my understanding, 148, is a totally different animal. Most of the time, the frame needs to be designed for 148, unless you're OK with kludging it together.


Thanks. I thought that was the case but needed a reality-check. I have a bike with 135, and one with 148 (boost), and you are right. They are totally incompatible.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> According to PMW nomenclature, the steel part welded onto the frame that allows the system to slide is a "sliding adjustable dropout." This is the part that many people have broken on Soma frames. It's a flawed design, but it seems like an easy fix for a skilled welder.
> 
> The part that bolts on and slides is an adjustable dropout _insert_." These are pretty solid and hard to really break.
> 
> ...


Thanks, again.

IRD refers to the black insert things as "sliders", confusing the issue even further. (I would call the frame part the slider, and the insert, an insert.)


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

wgscott said:


> Oy. Thanks for posting that. If it is any consolation, I think you just saved me from a major headache. (I was considering the Soma Wolverine (V.4.0)).


I'm still not sure about the guy breaking the soma Juice frame by "riding it hard" - I wonder what that is? Does he case jumps? I just say it because I have a Soma Juice that I've had for several years now (4? 5?) and I'm a pretty big guy, and I definitely ride hard, but I don't jump stuff on my SS, and I've not had any issues with the frame. So, honestly, I don't know what to make of it. But I won't write off Soma frames just because this guy is having issues.


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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

Cotharyus said:


> I'm still not sure about the guy breaking the soma Juice frame by "riding it hard" - I wonder what that is? Does he case jumps? I just say it because I have a Soma Juice that I've had for several years now (4? 5?) and I'm a pretty big guy, and I definitely ride hard, but I don't jump stuff on my SS, and I've not had any issues with the frame. So, honestly, I don't know what to make of it. But I won't write off Soma frames just because this guy is having issues.


I think you are right. Also, it looks like the IRD dropouts (i.e., the slots welded to the frame) are of the new type, shown in the photo above yours. I'm not an engineer, but it does look like they may have got rid of that "fulcrum" issue with the redesign.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Anyone know what size screw I need for my wolverine 2.0? Soma's site says M4, but in an email told me m5. Is the lug nut needed or can I just use it with a screw?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I can't remember what size I bought, but I'd just take the slider by itself into a hardware store (Ace, True Value, etc, not Home Depot or Lowe's) and look for some nice stainless steel bolts. I got mine to fit a 8mm allen, four bolts and stainless washers for about eight bucks.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Any reason you suggest Ace over Home Depot, cause I have Home Depot close to me.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Ace/ True Value or smaller hardware stores usually have a vast selection of every imaginable fastener, whereas Home Depot had doodily-squat in that department.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Ah, well I got the screw at Lowes as it was on my way, but they didn't have the lug nut. M5 40 seems to be the right size. I will probably hit up Ace Sunday for lug nuts, per the size Soma recommended in their reply email.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Cotharyus said:


> I'm still not sure about the guy breaking the soma Juice frame by "riding it hard" - I wonder what that is? Does he case jumps? I just say it because I have a Soma Juice that I've had for several years now (4? 5?) and I'm a pretty big guy, and I definitely ride hard, but I don't jump stuff on my SS, and I've not had any issues with the frame. So, honestly, I don't know what to make of it. But I won't write off Soma frames just because this guy is having issues.


Now, for a serving of crow. I'm following up my own post because I discovered cracks in the dropout on the drive side of my Juice last night while I was cleaning it. For the record it lasted 6 years and a month or two. Still, I'm a big guy, so on the whole, that's not bad considering the number of miles I've put on it.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Cotharyus said:


> Now, for a serving of crow. I'm following up my own post because I discovered cracks in the dropout on the drive side of my Juice last night while I was cleaning it. For the record it lasted 6 years and a month or two. Still, I'm a big guy, so on the whole, that's not bad considering the number of miles I've put on it.


Bummer. Breaking frames sucks.

Next question, will you replace it with a new Juice or something else?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Bummer. Breaking frames sucks.
> 
> Next question, will you replace it with a new Juice or something else?


Sadly breaking frames is nothing new to me. Nearly every bike I've ever owned has ended up like that.

I'm debating my next SS being FS since building trail for a living takes its own toll on the body and I'm not as young as I once was. That said, I have a friend (who happens to be an avid single speeder) who is a brilliant fabricator and welder who I'm talking to about cutting the old dropouts out of this frame and welding some new ones in...maybe something that has 142 inserts? See, the thing is, I was maybe months away at best from having to replace the rear hub, both wheels on this bike have some dings in them (although tires still seat well on them) - it really just has a LOT of miles on it. So there's some thinking to be done. But something like a Lunch Money would be kinda cool....


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

Cotharyus said:


> Sadly breaking frames is nothing new to me. Nearly every bike I've ever owned has ended up like that.
> 
> I'm debating my next SS being FS since building trail for a living takes its own toll on the body and I'm not as young as I once was. That said, I have a friend (who happens to be an avid single speeder) who is a brilliant fabricator and welder who I'm talking to about cutting the old dropouts out of this frame and welding some new ones in...maybe something that has 142 inserts? See, the thing is, I was maybe months away at best from having to replace the rear hub, both wheels on this bike have some dings in them (although tires still seat well on them) - it really just has a LOT of miles on it. So there's some thinking to be done. But something like a Lunch Money would be kinda cool....


I fully support the idea of modifying the dropouts. It has crossed my mind (but not my wallet's ability) several times for several bikes. Plus, it just makes the bike that much more uniquely yours!


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Redlands R&C said:


> I fully support the idea of modifying the dropouts. It has crossed my mind (but not my wallet's ability) several times for several bikes. Plus, it just makes the bike that much more uniquely yours!


This is happening. A local in the MTB community kicked me a set of wheels to replace the ones I'm running, and I'm taking the frame to the fabricator Monday. It seems the community around here is supportive of long time riders who have spent a lot of time building trail and helping to get more trail built. I'm pretty floored everything came together so fast, but word got around and one of the shop mechanics literally called and told me there was a set of wheels at the shop for me.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cotharyus said:


> This is happening. A local in the MTB community kicked me a set of wheels to replace the ones I'm running, and I'm taking the frame to the fabricator Monday. It seems the community around here is supportive of long time riders who have spent a lot of time building trail and helping to get more trail built. I'm pretty floored everything came together so fast, but word got around and one of the shop mechanics literally called and told me there was a set of wheels at the shop for me.


Karma is a *****. Unless you do good things, then she's an angel.

Glad your community is giving back to you!


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I have a Soma Wolverine 2.0 that I just finished building, LBS helped also. The tire at a certain point of rotation was hitting the left grove of the frame. My LBS who installed my brakes also replaced the rear hub on my WTB rim(they discovered the old was bad). Had the tires tuned, which fixed it, but then halfway through my ride, the issue came back. Tires were fine, said IRD weren't tight enough. So, he tightened the nut on each side & 2 screws on each side too. Said if it comes back, go to a hardware store & double up the nut on each side and use washer on the 2 side screws on each side. Is this a good idea? Would that stop the IRD from moving out of place and causing the tire rub on the frame? Thank you.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

IRD is a brand. Not what your sliding drop outs are called. There are two set screws that are used for alignment and setting chain tension. They are not meant to be load bearing. The 4 larger bolts you speak of are load bearing. The only washers that should exist are the ones directly beneath the bolt heads, their purpose is to keep the bolt heads from digging in and damaging your frame. 

Properly adjusted and torqued drop outs will not need the addition of washers. And the addition of washers is not something that could be a long term fix.

I would recommend finding a more competent mechanic. Though I did also upgrade my personal Wolverine with Titanium combo head bolts from Paragon Machine Works. Never had a slider slip for myself or thousands of customers. Excluding one Custom Seven owner who felt having a penis was really the only qualifications needed to turn a wrench. He broke his own bike constantly and liked throwing little fits in public. Other than him. Properly adjusted sliders have worked perfectly on every bike I've set them up on.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I know it is a brand, but the words to describe it weren't coming up. I still got the nuts and washers as it was only $2 total. The mechanic did tighten the washer and load-bearing screws, so I will see how that turns out on my next ride in the mountains, probably this weekend. What advantage do the TI bolts have over the stock? I take it's stronger?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Did he use a torque wrench on the bolts? That's more important than you might think. I always torqued the four bolts on my Juice to 25Nm and they NEVER slipped. I also got some nice stainless bolts that had a 8mm broach instead of a 6mm and that made it easier to torque them.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

They deform less under load and can take a higher torque spec than the originals. I bought them because they are prettier and I was already doing a thru axle conversion anyways.

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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I am fairly sure he torqued it with a hand tool.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Any suggestions on a hex/lock nut? I am still using the regular ones that I got from the hardware store and it's not staying fully tight. I ordered new screws(20) from amazon, but looking to get a stronger nut to match. I didn't see anything good at my local Home Depot or lumber store.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I still don't understand how, if you set the slides in the right place turning the bolts to hold everything straight and at a good chain tension, then tighten the nuts on the tension bolts down against the front side of the dropout, how they could possibly be coming loose.You shouldn't need a lock nut or a lock washer. Can you post a picture of your dropouts? I'm betting they've been put together incorrectly.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Not by the bike will do it when I get home.


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## SSWax (Jun 11, 2018)

*IRD Broski Dropouts*



Funoutside said:


> Not by the bike will do it when I get home.


Did you ever resolve this issue? Does anyone else seem to have an issue where their dropouts tend to shift?


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I did, by ordering what looked to be stronger bolts off amazon & different lock nuts from a local hardware store that's not a big brand store. So far it hasn't moved.


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## SSWax (Jun 11, 2018)

Funoutside said:


> I did, by ordering what looked to be stronger bolts off amazon & different lock nuts from a local hardware store that's not a big brand store. So far it hasn't moved.


Rolling single speed?


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

No, I have a 2x10 setup & running 29x2.0 tires currently.


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## beltsarethebest (4 mo ago)

How much travel does the sliding dropout give you?


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