# Horses and Bikes - good, bad and deadly



## saddLLP (Aug 14, 2009)

Hi Bikers,
There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open. We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day. So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side. Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

saddLLP said:


> . Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


Why do I have to be responsible for the lack of control you have over your animal? I can control my bike just fine and it's never spooked or tried to trample other trail users.

If you're out there on a horse it's YOUR responsibility to ensure they are calm around bicycles. You are endangering other trail users if you're out there on an animal that you can't control. If you are unsure about your animal it doesn't belong out there on the trails.

I follow the rules and yield, as we are supposed to. I usually don't meet bad equestrians, just like most people don't usually meet bad riders, but I do have an issue with a 1000lb dumb animal that is "spooked" by other trail users and even other animals on the trail. It wouldn't be much of an issue of equestrians took responsibility and rode bicycles around their own horses to get them familiar, but it's not my experience that they are that responsible, they want everyone else to be responsible for the lack of control they have over their animals.

Maybe this is comming off a little harsh, as I said I meet a lot of equestrians that seem to be nice people, but answer me this: Have you ridden bikes around your horse to familiarize them for the mutli-use trails you are evidently riding?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Huh. I'll be damned!

In our area we have many equestrians, bikers, hikers, and no conflicts. We build trails and maintain them together, shoulder to shoulder. Our primary source of land acquisition and funding is the local equestrian groups, and they turn the money over to us for trail maintenance.

http://www.slopost.org/
http://www.cccmb.org/

We all ride fast when we want, are courteous, friendly, and *non accusatory toward each other*. It works.

You live in the wrong place and _place too much blame on someone else_.


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## Tuff Gong (May 8, 2009)

I have no problem stopping and talking to you folks (I always do) but would you please pick up the huge piles you leave in the middle of the trail. Thanks


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

all the more reason to keep your horses on private property. i can at least keep my bike under control. its comical that mountain bikers were labeled as being more damaging to trails. i hate riding thru horse manure and i loathe the ruts and trail damage done by horses on wet trails. 1500lbs of horse and human on wet trails = major damage.


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## saddLLP (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, I guess we all read what we want to read. Sorry to have taken space on your forum. Let's hope we all meet under good circumstances on the trail. Sorry to have seemed accusatory - thought I was opening a good dialog to tame the tension, not give it a forum to get worse. Back to my own forum to talk about our uncontrollable poop-machines....


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## Radair222 (Aug 2, 2009)

The horse thinks we are predators looking for an easy meal. You have to understand that horses are prey animals, and their fight or flight instincts are hardwired and no human will ever be able train that out of them. They can be acclimated to bikes, but a fast moving object coming towards them still throws up the flight mechanism. The unpredictability of an animal is why hikers and bikers yield to the equestrian.
I was sitting on a green-broke mustang mare when a biker came up from behind to fast, and scared the horse, causing her to kick the biker on the thigh, effectively ruining his day. I did not feel sorry for the guy and thought it was comical because the trail head was very clear that bikers and hikers yield to horses and gave precautions, this guy evidently felt the rules did not apply to him and found out the hard way why.
I no longer have horses because of the unpredictability issues. I also understand why and do fully agree that bikers and hikers must yield to horses for the safety of all parties. We all have an equal right to use our public lands, and must co-operate making this a win-win situation. Bickering will result in trail access being denied, limited or closed, in which case this is lose-win, and you may find yourself searching for other trails further away from home.


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## The Professor (Jun 25, 2009)

Wow, I am surprised with the reception here. Thanks for posting saddLLP and it was really commendable to try to open a dialog here. Sorry for the reception, I think there is a lot of frustration here because of the stigma that is attached to MTB while equestrians seem to be somewhat immune. 

You are right that we need to work together.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

What I read here is that the bikers are being told to change, and I hear nothing about what the equestrians can do on their side.

In the area where I live, ride, work on trails (central coastal California, San Luis Obispo county), we have a great relationship with equestrians, they will watch ahead for bikers, get over to the side of the trail and wait, in areas where that is possible. Many times we bikers get off the trail and let the equestrians pass. Yes, on sudden encounters, the bikers yield to horses, but there are times when horses yield to bikers. _Cooperation_ on *both* sides works *both* ways.

But the bikers go to the equestrian meetings and ask, "What can we do to make this good for all of us?" The equestrians go to the bike meetings and ask, "What can we do to make this good for all of us?"

This dialogue has been the equestrians telling the bikers what they have to do, or else loose trail access. Where is the _cooperation_ in that?


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## HarryCallahan (Nov 2, 2004)

saddLLP said:


> Well, I guess we all read what we want to read. Sorry to have taken space on your forum. Let's hope we all meet under good circumstances on the trail. Sorry to have seemed accusatory - thought I was opening a good dialog to tame the tension, not give it a forum to get worse. Back to my own forum to talk about our uncontrollable poop-machines....


Welcome to the forum. You've probably noticed there are some folks here who have issues, some who specialize in keyboard combat, and some who have feel they've made lots of concessions to no perceptible effect on being treated as less than welcome. For what it's worth, I appreciate the effort you made to speak out.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Why do I have to be responsible for the lack of control you have over your animal? I can control my bike just fine and it's never spooked or tried to trample other trail users.
> 
> If you're out there on a horse it's YOUR responsibility to ensure they are calm around bicycles. You are endangering other trail users if you're out there on an animal that you can't control. If you are unsure about your animal it doesn't belong out there on the trails.


The word. Most horses taken out by amateur riders are poorly trained.

If you want to play with an unpredictable toy that weights a ton it is your responsibility to make sure it is under control.

Sight of a bicycle should not be regarded as something extraordinary.

Equestrians have a sense of entitlement and abundance of smugness. They successfully usurped our public lands under false pretenses. Horses actually cause more erosion and damage then bikes. They drop manure everywhere and they are a danger to all other trail users.

I was hiking with my kids in a local park - that prohibits cycling, as it is near a rich little town. I was nearly pushed off trail by some dumb horse. My kids had to get around stinky piles of manure.

Nothing like that happens with bikes. Recreational horse riding should be banned from all public lands and cycling allowed on all established trails and roads including wilderness areas.


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

We get along with horses just fine in the south Chilcotin.

Apologies about that jayem character and don't even get him started about bike suspension


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## lokiboy8 (Sep 18, 2005)

*Welcome to the ME Generation*

Recent studies show a dramatic rise in Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

To our Equestrian friends, like saddLLP -- Thank you for all your help over the years in building and maintaining trails that we ALL can use.

To those that have a "problem" with horses on trails and riding with safety and respect uppermost -- Good Luck with that.

Happy Trails,

Marc


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## w00t! (Apr 28, 2008)

Seems like we all just get along 'round these parts. I feel sorry for all the complainers. Are all y'all from Texas or something?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lokiboy8 said:


> To our Equestrian friends, like saddLLP -- Thank you for all your help over the years in building and maintaining trails that we ALL can use.


Where are those trails we can use? In national parks? In wilderness they kicked us out? In local state parks that prohibit cycling?

Are they doing trail maintenance? Not around here. (SF Bay area)


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

saddLLP said:


> We all like to ride fast at times. (...) However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster





Jayem said:


> Why do I have to be responsible for the lack of control you have over your animal? I can control my bike just fine and it's never spooked or tried to trample other trail users.


I think saddLLP made an excellent point here.

In the example that she gave, she and her husband were in good control of their horses, while some pretty dumb bikers came scorching around a blind corner.

I rarely meet horses on trails. I have a plenty of blind corners, though. I dare not take them at full speed. I also try to make some noice before those corners. 
Why?
- There could well be a fallen tree on the other side.
- There could be another biker coming the other way.
- There could be a family with little children there.
- In some places, there might even be a bear.
- A horse? Unlikely but possible.

I don't want to run into any of those.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

saddLLP said:


> Well, I guess we all read what we want to read. Sorry to have taken space on your forum. Let's hope we all meet under good circumstances on the trail. Sorry to have seemed accusatory - thought I was opening a good dialog to tame the tension, not give it a forum to get worse. Back to my own forum to talk about our uncontrollable poop-machines....


Well, you had some good points, but you also essentially said that "mountain bikers need to do this, this, this, and this for horses". No, we don't need to do that because equestrians need to control their animals and if they can't, they don't belong on the trails.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Radair222 said:


> We all have an equal right to use our public lands, and must co-operate making this a win-win situation.


Only if you are responsible and not trying to pawn off your horse's uncontrolability on other trail users.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

You know, we all talk about the poop issue in passing but I notice that when an equestrian does make their way over here they don't really address it.

I want to know, do you feel guilty about leaving piles of horse biology all over the trails? How would you react to me if I walk my dog past your house and he poops on the sidewalk where your kids play?

In all honesty, I will never forgive an equestrian, no matter how nice they are or how much effort they make to get out of my way or whatever, so long as they let their animals **** all over the trails.

It might not be wrong for me to leave an apple core out in the woods, but a pile of them in the middle of the trail would not be tolerated.

You want to reach across the the aisle and make nice nice? Clean up after yourself the way we are all expected to in the name of common courtesy.

I just can't believe this issue never comes up at whatever meetings you get together at.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LeeL said:


> Apologies about that jayem character and don't even get him started about bike suspension


Thanks for the personal words and being concerned about me. It takes two to tango eh?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

perttime said:


> I rarely meet horses on trails. I have a plenty of blind corners, though. I dare not take them at full speed. I also try to make some noice before those corners.
> .


I'll take the corners as fast as I can, but I always take them at a speed that allows me to stop on a dime if I need to. How the horse reacts to this is not my problem, as I'm under control and stopping before them. I agree with most of the things said here, just not that we need to do all sorts of special things like talk to the horse and so on. The equestrians need to be responsible for their animans and they need to control them. If they haven't done the necessary training or trained them around bicycles themselves, they should not be out there on the trail. If these things have been done, then enjoy the trails and have a good time.


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## AscentCanada (Aug 20, 2004)

perttime said:


> I think saddLLP made an excellent point here.
> 
> In the example that she gave, she and her husband were in good control of their horses, while some pretty dumb bikers came scorching around a blind corner.
> 
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

AscentCanada said:


> There was a familiy on horses, taking their daughter on her first trail ride. Because she was inexperienced her horse spooked. By Jayem's trail use "rules" I was still in the right. But what right did I have to endanger that little girl. Watching her cling to her horse terrified sure didn't make me feel that I was in the "right". Made me feel like an


The horse spooked partially because that family didn't ride bikes around the horse THEMSELVES before taking the horse on a multi-use trail. Yes, there is no excuse for inexperienced mountain bikers as well, although we can try to spread the rules the best we can. I actually had to do this a few weeks ago with a very experienced tri/mtb "racer" I was riding with. She actually didn't know the rules of the trail, which was a little strange.


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Thanks for the personal words and being concerned about me. It takes two to tango eh?


EDIT eh - i was just _trying to_ making a funny. Sorry about that.


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

I do many MTBing trips and have rode many areas. In most areas MTB and horses seem to co-exist just fine. I spend a lot of time riding the same trails as Jayem and of all the places I ride Prescott seem to have the most polite trail-users around. 

In So-Cal I have had my worst horse experiences like when a group decided in was time to get a young horse used to the trail. He was was being lead riderless tied to another horse, when a bike came up and stopped he freaking and starting kicking at everything close then broke free and ran full steam down the trail at some hikers. I don't blame the horse but people who own horses and really aren't "horse people".

When I ride remote areas I find it comforting knowing that others on horseback are around for support if needed.

Dean


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

MisterC said:


> Clean up after yourself the way we are all expected to in the name of common courtesy.


Those piles are just nature's way of giving the trail crew something to fill the post holes that horses make in the trail with their hooves.

Yes, I kid.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

LeeL said:


> EDIT eh - i was just _trying to_ making a funny. Sorry about that.


To me it sounded like you were trying to make a funny at my expense. If that was not your intent then I am sorry.


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Curmy said:


> Equestrians have a sense of entitlement and abundance of smugness. They successfully usurped our public lands under false pretenses. Horses actually cause more erosion and damage then bikes. They drop manure everywhere and they are a danger to all other trail users.


Agreed. Equestrians are themost self important, arrogrant people on the trail. Everytime I come to a horse on the trail the rider always thinks I should clear the trail for their animal. They ride through me and at me, often with no warning. Horses make those huge, deep hoof marks all over the trail and leave huge, stinking piles of crap right in the middle. At least dogs usually crap off the trial.

Horses are dangerous, sometimes unpredictable animals. They do not belong on the trail with hikers and riders. They are easily spooked and are not safe. I can control, predict and manage my bike so I am 100% safe. You can't control an animal, it has a mind of its own, especially a 1000 lb animal.

To the starter of this thread, I don't want to see any horses on my trail. Please stick to riding around in circles, safely enclosed by fences.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

VTSession said:


> I can control, predict and manage my bike so I am 100% safe.


Me too. Took a spill during yesterday's ride. Been almost a week since my latest OTB.


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## shrubeck (May 11, 2006)

In my entier life, one, yes one, equestrian has been courteous to me on the trail. On the flip side of that, dozens of them have run me right off the trail and yelled out some derogatory comment having to do with granola, sprockets, or spandex. I think the problem around here is they all think they're cowboys and have to fit the tuffguy stereotype. Unfortunately they only come across as ignorant ********.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

i've only ever had good experiences meeting equestrians on the trail. i don't like the mess their animals leave behind, but people are people.


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## AscentCanada (Aug 20, 2004)

Jayem said:


> The horse spooked partially because that family didn't ride bikes around the horse THEMSELVES before taking the horse on a multi-use trail. Yes, there is no excuse for inexperienced mountain bikers as well, although we can try to spread the rules the best we can. I actually had to do this a few weeks ago with a very experienced tri/mtb "racer" I was riding with. She actually didn't know the rules of the trail, which was a little strange.


You tend to generalize things into what suits your argument. How do you KNOW this and this as FACT? Do you have some telepathic ability to know these people and how they did train their horse  Do you think they put their daughter on their most inexperienced horse?

As I explained in this case I slowed down and continued to ride past. I hit a rock up at the horse, which spooked it and it took off into the bushes away from me. The horse was still until then. So it seemed that the horse was experienced but the rider not. By not dismounting and letting the horses by I put both myself at risk of being kicked and their daughter in danger.


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## Lab Lackey (Nov 3, 2006)

saddLLP said:


> "So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side."
> 
> Slowing down for blind corners should be a given in situations when any other trail users are present. Perhaps it needed to be brought up again? Kinda like me jumping on a skydiving forum and telling them to pull the cord before they hit the ground! Everybody knows that for every given number of trail users there is going to be somebody out there with half a brain and no respect for anybody else. What you said here needed to be told to the father in front of the kids so they learn what sharing the trail entails.
> 
> ...


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Horse people always say the same thing,

" Look, we are allowed out there and we aren't going to stop. So lets make nice nice when we deal with each other and be as safe as possible even if that puts most of the responsibility on you. About the poop thing, 'No comment'. "

To which I respond, " Die in a fire you lazy, dense, self important jackass for covering your disdain with this thinly layered cordiality and then blaming me for not rolling over when you make your demands. Oh, and clean up your horse ****, dick."


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## wildharejac (May 11, 2006)

My camel never has any "fright" issues and has soft feet that do not erode a trail like a hoof will. She just spits when agitated.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

*Lesson 1*
-------------

Never mention the following on mtbr:
- horses
- dogs
- guns


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## shrubeck (May 11, 2006)

Next time I see a guy on a horse, I'm going to shoot his dog with my gun!


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

AscentCanada said:


> perttime said:
> 
> 
> > I think saddLLP made an excellent point here.
> ...


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

shrubeck said:


> Next time I see a guy on a horse, I'm going to shoot his dog with my gun!


Now listen you trigger-happy cave man! You should know that a squirt of lemon juice from a bottle is the way to teach a predator a lesson. Leave finishing that guy to the Authorities when they arrive.
(the stupid herd animal is already dead in the ravine)

:eekster:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

perttime said:


> *Lesson 1*
> -------------
> 
> Never mention the following on mtbr:
> ...


 and furries..


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2008)

*wow*



MisterC said:


> To which I respond, " Die in a fire you lazy, dense, self important jackass for covering your disdain with this thinly layered cordiality and then blaming me for not rolling over when you make your demands. Oh, and clean up your horse ****, dick."


Do you really hate horses on tha trail that much or was it a joke?

rules are rules, if any of you see a horse on the trail they have right of way not you, and if theres a blind corner, take it slow enough so that you can come to a quick stop

i absolutely hate horses sometimes, especially when i went to wales 2 weeks ago and found all the local trails ruined by horses riding them in the wet, but theres nothing the rider or owner can do to "train" the horse not to spook, its a reflex reaction.... if you looked up and saw something flying towards you fast, your not just gonna stand there and look dumb, you flinch yes?
*same thing in a horses case*

so stop complaining about poorly trained horses and their riders, and why dont you just go out on the trail and enjoy them and have a chat to the rider

and i really doubt any of you actually have a go at the riders like some people say they do. You might tell everyone on here that you do, where nobody can see you or shout back, you can make youself look all big and mr important behind a screen, but either way, thats just pathetic


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> AscentCanada said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice if they could clean up after their horses but I do not know much about horses I don't know how difficult that is or isn't.
> ...


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## druranium (Apr 6, 2007)

While I hate the damage the beasts do to the trails, I always get the hell out of the way when I see them coming. No interest in getting kicked anywhere by one of them or having them rear up and buck the rider off. I would feel really bad if that happened, even though i wouldn't exactly consider it 'my fault'. Most of the horse riders I've come across have been mutually respectful though there have been the odd cowboy macho d-bag over the years. They are on top of a very heavy, strong, unpredictable animal...and they do have their right to be out there on the trails. I think we should try to get along because neither group is going away. (So many problems in the world could be improved by recognizing the 'other group' are human beings just like 'our group')
Slocaus, I wish I lived in your area...Sounds like bike/horse rider utopia!!!


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## sonett iii (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree with everyone on the poop/potholes/poop filled potholes

In Nashville we lost one of our best trails to the horse people and I cannot stand it!

It was the same bs that is always used erosion/spooking horses. There is a group of riders fighting it now but as someone above mentioned the park is in a very wealthy neighborhood, and I think that not allowing bikes also keeps poor people out of their park.


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## sonett iii (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree with everyone on the poop/potholes/poop filled potholes

In Nashville we lost one of our best trails to the horse people and I cannot stand it!

It was the same bs that is always used erosion/spooking horses. There is a group of riders fighting it now but as someone above mentioned the park is in a very wealthy neighborhood, and I think that not allowing bikes also keeps poor people out of their park.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Thankfully I ride on trails where horses aren't allowed. I did once ride a trail that was multi-use and though I did not come across any horses it was once of the worst trails I have ever been on. It was flat and clear and wide and relatively rock/root free but it was in such horrible shape from the hoof marks it might as well been a technical rock garden.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Do you really hate horses on tha trail that much or was it a joke?
> 
> rules are rules, if any of you see a horse on the trail they have right of way not you, and if theres a blind corner, take it slow enough so that you can come to a quick stop
> 
> ...


We call it hyperbole and I only use it when I really need it. 

I will never understand this mentality and it is just...ugh...everywhere. Yeah rules...are rules, I get that. Doesn't make them right.

Take blind corners slow,yes, thank you for your insight but it toally misses the point. We aren't talking about the OP anymore if you haven't noticed. This thread has digressed into general disdain for horses as they all do.

But, saying that horses are unpredictable and dangerous is not an argument to support that we should be more careful around them. Us being more careful around them is a result of them being dangerous. You know, in Maryland and many other places, they banned smoking in bars because they didn't feel it was fair to expect normal people, who are damaging their bodies just the same with alcohol, to have to endure someone else's smoke. A danger they could not share the same space with and avoid at the same time. I submit that this is a similar situation.

Of course the argument to the smoking ban was that people should just not go to the bars where people smoke. So, right or wrong, my point is that rules were rules and people could smoke, someone decided it was wrong to subject others to it and got it kicked out. The rules changed. If smokers could somehow guarentee that they were insulating their smoke from the other patrons they would still be allowed to smoke indoors today. But they can't. And you know what, as much as I felt it was wrong at the time, I like it much better this way and the majority of people seem to also.

Tellign me that rules are rules and I should just get in line like everyone else is ignorant and lazy.

And I have never told a lie about an enoucnter with a horse.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

MisterC said:


> DirtyMtnBikeHer said:
> 
> 
> > oh come on. if there is one thing that is simple about this discussion, that should be a no-brainer, it is that they should clean up after them and that it can be done with minimal effort.
> ...


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

FREE Clue to all equestrians

Do Trail Work
Train Your Horse
Pick up the Mess

then you will have earned the right to use the trails


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

mmmmm horses...
http://www.metro.ca/recettes/46/horse-meat.en.html

goes well with belgium beer...


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## wocrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Hey saddLLP,

I ride Cheseboro a lot and have had great interactions with horseriders. Of course, there were a few that were less than positive. And that's not because they were equestrians. It's because the people were *******s. Most riders thank me for stopping and tell me to have a nice ride. Other riders even requested me to keep going, either because their horses were cool with bikes, or because they were acquainting their horses to other trail users. 

Thanks for your post, I'm sure a lot more people appreciate it than it seems. See you at the trails.


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*Yes sir, that's my baby*



Jayem said:


> To me it sounded like you were trying to make a funny at my expense. If that was not your intent then I am sorry.


I'd take a jab at that, but you seem to be doing alright on your own.


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## jimithng23 (Feb 11, 2009)

The problems between the equestrians and bikers/hikers in my local community are due to the attitude of the equestrians towards other users. They believe they have the right to use all trails, even trails designated hike'n'bike only, and contribute to little or no maintenance of the trails they ride. Their vehicle completely destroys the land while littering the trails with piles of manure that they don't care to pick up.

Our local club has volunteered hundreds upon hundreds of hours worth of trail design to the equestrians as well as helping them cut in their very own trails and we *still* have to remind them to stay off the bike'n'hike only trails. 

Their blatant disregard for park trail rules and regulations is getting them dangerously close to being banned at a local county park. A park that has seen our organization rehab old rogue trails, lay out and cut in new trail, and book the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest for 2011 & 2012. 

If it wasn't for completely disregarding the park ranger's rules they wouldn't be in any trouble but their sense of entitlement and smug attitude is doing much more harm than good.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

[email protected]msn.com said:


> i absolutely hate horses sometimes, especially when i went to wales 2 weeks ago and found all the local trails ruined by horses riding them in the wet, but theres nothing the rider or owner can do to "train" the horse not to spook, its a reflex reaction.... if you looked up and saw something flying towards you fast, your not just gonna stand there and look dumb, you flinch yes?
> *same thing in a horses case*


If what you are saying was really true, they don't belong on trails with other users AT ALL.

They teach horses to ignore gunshots and cannonballs, police horses also don't spook all the time. Sure they can be trained to be calmer around such events, it just takes work. Are the equestrians going to do what is required to not present a hazard to other trail users, or are they just going to take the lazy route?



> and i really doubt any of you actually have a go at the riders like some people say they do. You might tell everyone on here that you do, where nobody can see you or shout back, you can make youself look all big and mr important behind a screen, but either way, thats just pathetic


Most of my horse-enslaver encounters come and go with no problems, both parties are nice and respectfull. That doesn't mean that the bad ones don't happen or that we don't exchange some words. I've had encounters where people freaked out because I was a few hundred yards back and riding to them. Well, sorry, but I'm going to ride to within a reasonable distance and pull off there, so shouting and waving isn't really going to do much good. Then there's the ones where you are traveling at a good clip and stop well before the horse and it still starts spooking. I usually let the equestrians know that I'm in control of my vehicle/bike and that I stopped well in front of them.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

The sense of entitlement that equestrians seem to have will ultimatley be their undoing . How many have you seen pitching in on trail work days? Land managers are aware of the inequities in volunteer hours donated by different user groups .When pressed on these issues volunteer hours many times sway decisions in funding , trail access etc.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Zoke2 said:


> FREE Clue to all equestrians
> 
> Do Trail Work
> Train Your Horse
> ...


They earn the "right" to keep usurping our public lands by being generally well-off, having enough leisure time and arrogance to influence land management boards, and having a bunch of anti-human eco-nazis, like Sierra Club, who are oblivious to the fact that cycling is far less damaging, on their side.

We have been far too accommodating to their arrogance for far too long.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

jimithng23 said:


> Their blatant disregard for park trail rules and regulations is getting them dangerously close to being banned at a local county park.


Yeah, give the horsers time to hear about it, and a quick wave of cash under the politician's noses will make it all go away.

No, I'm not a cynic, just old enough to know how things work.


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## Rushan (Jul 21, 2009)

I think horses should require blinders when on trails shared with bikers. The horse does not have to see anything but in front of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinders Gives an example of driving horses using them so the horse does not spook as easily. It would make the trails a safer place by restricting the animals vision and allowing the rider to control the animal. I guess the equestrians would not like to always put them on their horses for rides.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Rushan said:


> I think horses should require blinders when on trails shared with bikers.


And a poop bag.

It is nothing new. Blinders and poop bags had been used for centuries when we had to share our cities with horses.


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*The Lion Sleeps Tonight*



perttime said:


> Never mention the following on mtbr:
> - horses
> - dogs
> - guns


Google Image Search for above:









Add hot women mountain bikers to the above list.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

jimithng23 said:


> The problems between the equestrians and bikers/hikers in my local community are due to the attitude of the equestrians towards other users. They believe they have the right to use all trails, even trails designated hike'n'bike only, and contribute to little or no maintenance of the trails they ride. .


Same is happening here but not all the equestrians are mean, just a few. Any way I never had a problem with equestrians but I know they don't like to share the trails... I always try to follow this guidences and they seems to work for me... (Book: Mountain Biking Northern California: a guide to low impact riding on singletrack trails.)

*Minimizing Trail Conflicts...*

It takes more than one person to cause a conflict, so here are some ideas for all trail users to help decrease the severity and amount of conflicts on singletracks.

*The first thing that we must do is check our attitudes. We must not judge others who use the trail. Regardless of the manner in which they use the trail, they are basically out there to enjoy nature and to enjoy their sport, whether it be hiking, backpacking, horse riding, or mountain biking. These forms of trail use have been shown to be similar in impact, and are all valid ways in which people enjoy natural areas.
*
*All trail users are responsible for being alert and for watching and listening for others. But the faster that a trail user is moving, the more alert that user needs to be. Headphones, loud conversations, and daydreaming contribute to a loss of alertness.*

All trail users should stay to the right of the trail. This allows people to approach and pass each other easily, and removes any indecision about the proper side on which to pass.

Faster users should slow down when approaching blind curves so as to not surprise a user on the other side. Sometimes this requires a much slower speed than the customary 5 MPH. In general, you are riding too fast if:

-you must slide your tires to stop or slow down when you are surprised by the presence of other trail users.

-other trail users seem nervous as you approach.

-you cannot look up and smile at other trail users as you pass.

-you feel out of control.

Faster users should take care so as to avoid throwing dust or mud onto other users.

Uphill mountain bikers usually have right-of-way over downhill riders. (It is hard to get going again after stopping on an uphill climb.) The rider of the cliff-side of a trail usually has right-of-way over the rider on the bank-side of a trail. (The rider on the bank-side can easily lean on the bank, allowing the rider on the cliff side to safely pass.)

*Hikers and equestrians have right-of-way over mountain bikers. This means that you should stop and move your bike to the side of the trail or off the trail, if necessary, before hikers and equestrians feel compelled to do so. Horses feel more comfortable when you are below them rather than above them. Talk to the horses as they approach. It doesn't have to be anything intelligent; just use a soothing voice. If you approach hikers and equestrians from behind, let them know that you are approaching before you get so close that you frighten them. You may have to wait until equestrians have found a wide place, have moved their horses off the trail, and have turned the horses around so that they may see you. Please be patient! Horses vary a lot in their responses to mountain bikers. More experienced horses may pay no attention to you. Less experienced horses may panic easily. Follow the instructions of the rider.*

Trail users need to get used to (desensitized) other trail users. This will decrease fear. It is interesting to note that bicyclists are not afraid of other bicyclists, and that hikers are not afraid of other hikers, and that equestrians are not afraid of other equestrians. The more we know of each other, the less we fear each other. Concentrate on similarities -- not differences.
*
We are all out there for the same reasons: To enjoy nature, and to enjoy what we are doing...*


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

saddLLP said:


> Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


Make sense to me...


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## Toddski (Jul 8, 2004)

Here’s my horse encounter story from last weekend – Bear Brook, NH.

I’m first in the group of riders. Come flying down the trail, super dense foliage, rocky rooty single track …trail not suitable for horses. So I’m shocked to see the 3 equestrians coming our way as I fly around a corner, but do stop a good 15 feet in front of them, everybody stops behind me as I give a warning, we dismount and stand to the side of this incredible tight trail. I say hello to the horse, First horse is FREAKING OUT, second horse is FREAKING out, third horse is FREAKING out. But we are all stopped and on the side of the trail off the bikes. The fist equestrian cannot get her horse to move forward as it’s stomping its hooves. I decide to talk to the horse in a friendly tone and let him know that I’m not a horse eating alien. This seems to work (kind of )and the first horse reluctantly stomps half kicking by us up the trail. Second horse, again it won’t respond to its rider’s commands, so I start up again in a soft tone. “it’s ok horsy, come on, let’s go.” And this is the part that pisses me off- the second equestrian says to me- quote “SHUT UP, my horse has never seen bikers before this is her first time out!” Now at this point I really wanted to get into a open dialogue about her I.Q. level and explain to her that where they were heading was not suitable for horses… also wanted to state that they were on a popular BIKING trail and they would encounter other riders in worse terrain as they further on, basically tell her that they should stop playing Louis& Clark and turn around!….. but the horse was really freaking out, there was nowhere for us to go, I did care about the rider’s safety… so I kept my mouth shut, stepped into the pucker brushes as far as I could go, used my bike as a shield for the kicking massive beast that finally went galloping by on his own terms. Third horse again went running by us with the half kicks, it was kind of scary, since the previous year I witnessed a horse actually go after and kick other biker as he stood to the far side (on a jeep road), the horses foot got caught up on the bike, and then the horse proceeded to stomp into the woods with bike still attached!, it was crazy!

so yeah anyways... I just thought a would share my recent horse encounter.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

HTR4EVR said:


> Make sense to me...


poop.

that is all.


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

GEEEEEEZZZZZZZZ! You people are wound up tight aren't you! 
How about this! Make up flyers advertising local trail work days, carry a few with you and hand them to horseback riders. Be as friendly as possible and maybe just maybe some of them will help! On occasion they do, I know of one(not me) and she does a lot of work!
Don't get your panties in a bunch!
Ok I do agree on the poop bag, happy now?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Ahhhhh...like slipping in to a warm bath.

Also, putting up flyers is littering. Are you telling me to litter?


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## natenite (Mar 1, 2009)

I have a good friend who had her back broken because of a horse on the trail. The thing that gets me is it was during an adventure race... that everyone knew about. Why the hell were they on the trails that day? The race was specifically in that park... only that park... only those trails... ... why??? Because horse riders are arrogant selfish lazy people... at least around here they are. They drop crap everywhere and their 1000 lb animals destroy the trails and we as bikers get blamed for it. They then turn around and use the damage they caused that is being blamed on us to get us kicked off of the trails... THAT WE BUILT!!! If that was not enough they are now ILLEGALLY riding their horses on the trials of our mountain bike only park. Its just for us so we dont bother them on the multi-use trails and they still have to use it and destroy it. I feel no compassion for horse riders... forcing a horse to hoof it up some of the nasty trails around here with their large butts on them while kicking them in the ribs with metal spikes... nope.... dont care what they have to say.. they have burned a bridge that I will not try to rebuild until I see them accepting their part of the blame... instead of pushing it off on us...seriously... how the hell does a mountain bike tire make 55 hoof prints in one 10 square foot area...HOW???

the pot has been restirred.


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## Exodus11 (Aug 21, 2007)

notaknob said:


> Google Image Search for above:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTF is that???

a chow shaved up to look like a lion...poor dog :madman:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Curmy said:


> They earn the "right" to keep usurping our public lands by being generally well-off, having enough leisure time and arrogance to influence land management boards, and having a bunch of anti-human eco-nazis, like Sierra Club, who are oblivious to the fact that cycling is far less damaging, on their side.
> 
> We have been far too accommodating to their arrogance for far too long.


again, I agree w/ the 'curmudgeon' (what's wrong w/ me? )
I haven't had issues w/ horse riders on the trails or the DG park here in Chico, CA....but the attempted shutting down of disc-golf in Upper Bidwell was done by "a bunch of anti-human eco-nazis" AKA "friends of bidwell". They are also often 'well off' and 'well-connected'.
A group that was also said we did damage. - More than MTBrs?, more than horses?, more than the bulldozers that plowed their way through natural vegetation (within old park boundaries - converse to the annexed portion to include the DG course) to make an 18-hole ball-golf course??
Damage!!?? to trails, vegetation, landscape, will always fit what power's that be definition.
Asphalt in a protected park is ok...disc golf is not.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Most of them are women...


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

highdelll said:


> again, I agree w/ the 'curmudgeon' (what's wrong w/ me? )
> I haven't had issues w/ horse riders on the trails or the DG park here in Chico, CA....but the attempted shutting down of disc-golf in Upper Bidwell was done by "a bunch of anti-human eco-nazis" AKA "friends of bidwell". They are also often 'well off' and 'well-connected'.
> A group that was also said we did damage. - More than MTBrs?, more than horses?, more than the bulldozers that plowed their way through natural vegetation (within old park boundaries - converse to the annexed portion to include the DG course) to make an 18-hole ball-golf course??
> Damage!!?? to trails, vegetation, landscape, will always fit what power's that be definition.
> Asphalt in a protected park is ok...disc golf is not.


Yeah there is a bunch of wackos around here (in Chico/Oroville) who think they have all authority on trail management...


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

notaknob said:


> Google Image Search for above:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What a lion.... :eekster:


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

MisterC said:


> Ahhhhh...like slipping in to a warm bath.
> 
> Also, putting up flyers is littering. Are you telling me to litter?


:madmax: 
I did NOT say to put up flyers I said to hand them out...probably at the parking lot so they had someplace to put them would be best...or just be casual and mention it! Or be an asshat it's up to you but remember our individual actions speak for a whole group! :rant:


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> :madmax:
> I did NOT say to put up flyers I said to hand them out...probably at the parking lot so they had someplace to put them would be best...or just be casual and mention it! Or be an asshat it's up to you but remember our individual actions speak for a whole group! :rant:


So I can hang them up where they become litter or I can hand them to horseback riders where they become litter.

Decisions, decisions...

I do like the idea though. Hand them a flyer that says,

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them clean up the piles of **** they leave all over the trail."

Or

"Put that thousand pound beast you ride all day where she belongs, in the kitchen cooking dinner for the kids. Oh, and nice horse."


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

highdelll said:


> again, I agree w/ the 'curmudgeon' (what's wrong w/ me? )


That's OK, that had happened to the best of us...


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> To me it sounded like you were trying to make a funny at my expense. If that was not your intent then I am sorry.


yup - i was making a lame joke and it came off all wrong. No worries


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

MisterC said:


> So I can hang them up where they become litter or I can hand them to horseback riders where they become litter.
> 
> Decisions, decisions...
> 
> ...


I am not getting a break today am I?? I just am trying to say we represent a whole group so think about that!!! Geez!


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## classiccanadianblizzard (Apr 26, 2006)

WOW!!! I am embarrassed to call myself a mountain biker right now. I must apologize to all equestrians out there on behalf of these "top shelf " mountain bikers. I am running into more and more of these types everyday. Most are too cool to even give a friendly wave to another biker... thus the misguide rants toward equestrians. Again, my deepest apologizes. enjoy the ride


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> WOW!!! I am embarrassed to call myself a mountain biker right now. I must apologize to all equestrians out there on behalf of these "top shelf " mountain bikers. I am running into more and more of these types everyday. Most are too cool to even give a friendly wave to another biker... thus the misguide rants toward equestrians. Again, my deepest apologizes. enjoy the ride


:thumbsup:

Thank you! I like you!


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> WOW!!! I am embarrassed to call myself a mountain biker right now. I must apologize to all equestrians out there on behalf of these "top shelf " mountain bikers. I am running into more and more of these types everyday. Most are too cool to even give a friendly wave to another biker... thus the misguide rants toward equestrians. Again, my deepest apologizes. enjoy the ride


Yeah, I'm sorry that your self esteem is so fragile that you need my aprobation to feel good about riding a bike.

But something tells me you aren't a mountain biker, whatever that is.


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

Zoke2 said:


> FREE Clue to all equestrians
> 
> Do Trail Work
> Train Your Horse
> ...


EXACTLY.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> I am not getting a break today am I?? I just am trying to say we represent a whole group so think about that!!! Geez!


I guess I need to say out loud that I have no intention of getting militant or sabotaging the enjoyment of equestrians on the trails. I just hate them is all. Oh, and I have logic, reason and ethics on my side as well.

So there is that.


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

MisterC said:


> Yeah, I'm sorry that your self esteem is so fragile that you need my aprobation to feel good about riding a bike.
> 
> But something tells me you aren't a mountain biker, whatever that is.


:madmax:

something tells me you are an ahole!


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

HTR4EVR said:


> Same is happening here but not all the equestrians are mean, just a few. Any way I never had a problem with equestrians but I know they don't like to share the trails... I always try to follow this guidences and they seems to work for me... (Book: Mountain Biking Northern California: a guide to low impact riding on singletrack trails.)
> 
> *Minimizing Trail Conflicts...*
> 
> ...


What the? HTR4EVR, are you making this stuff up? That's not all about *ME* and what *I* want! All trails are for me, screw everybody else! 

I know it sounds funny, especially in the context of this thread, but I'm thankful the U.S.F.S. saw fit to include us in the same category as equestrians and hikers, and remove us from the ATV / Moto category. Here's the rub, contained in the same language that gives us the privilege to join the equestrian, hiker user group it states that user conflicts will be examined on a trail by trail basis. Their not talking about equestrian-vs-hiker. Our access is up to us. Like it or not equestrians and hikers are the 500lb gorillas of the trails, they won't lose their access, make it tough for them on the trails, and we will.

Oh, and when it comes to the post holes and poop, do I like it? No! But a few decades ago I said to myself "Man-Up and deal with it Shelbak, it's all part of mountain biking."


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> :madmax:
> 
> something tells me you are a genius!


ftfy

and thank you :thumbsup:


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

So now we have mtbers turning on each other . Its little wonder that the mtb community cannot make aliances with other user groups.


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> WOW!!! I am embarrassed to call myself a mountain biker right now. I must apologize to all equestrians out there on behalf of these "top shelf " mountain bikers. I am running into more and more of these types everyday. Most are too cool to even give a friendly wave to another biker... thus the misguide rants toward equestrians. Again, my deepest apologizes. enjoy the ride


Word! :thumbsup:


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Hey, if there were skateboarders in here sympathizing with poop factories I'd be turning on them too. No bigotry here, no sir.


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> So now we have mtbers turning on each other . Its little wonder that the mtb community cannot make aliances with other user groups.


I apologize for my part....I really don't care if people talk to me I just want all trail users to be curtious (which does not mean you have to talk about the weather)!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

No sympathy here, just the realization that we have to share the trails.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> I apologize for my part....I really don't care if people talk to me I just want all trail users to be curtious (which does not mean you have to talk about the weather)!


Hey! We want the same thing!

I knew you were smart for thinking I was smart. Well played.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Can't we all just get along??


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Can't we all just get along??


My point excactly


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Ok, fine. Post count +1 Whee!


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Shelbak73 said:


> Like it or not equestrians and hikers are the 500lb gorillas of the trails, they won't lose their access, make it tough on them and we will.


This assumption is not getting us anywhere. Horses are destructive and dangerous and they should lose access. Sooner or later that will happen. Bending over is not helping us - that is quite clear.

This is our public land, bought on our tax dollars, cycling is less dangerous and destructive then horse riding and we should be assertive in our rights.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> I apologize for my part....I really don't care if people talk to me I just want all trail users to be curtious (which does not mean you have to talk about the weather)!


Being curteous during an encounter has nothing to do with being realistic about this group of users, about their impact and motivation.

I am Mr. Congeniality with any person on a trail. But I do despise equestrian lies and politics that keep me out from a whole lot of public parks and lands that my taxes paid for. I do despise their crap on local park trails, their poorly trained horses that endanger my children, and I do despise their attitude.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

So, I hate to keep one of these debate threads going unnecessarily, but I've been reading this with real interest. I happen not to ride in a place with lots of equestrian traffic, and while I've backpacked in areas in which I've encountered horses on trails, I don't have sufficient experience to comment on the general/average attitudes that characterize equestrian trail users as a group.

It sounds to me like there are two categories of gripes being voiced by folks in the MTB community regarding velo-equine relations. First, if I understand things, it sounds like some bikers resent the fact that they (and everyone else, as well) are expected to defer to equestrians, combined with the perception that equestrians display a sense of entitlement and/or superiority.

The second category involves the perception that equestrians are frequently "free-riders", in the "cheater" sense (not the saddle-less sense ). That is, the perception is that horses do more than their fair share of damage to the trails, and that equestrians do less-than their fair share of work to maintain trails (plus display an attitude of entitlement on top of that, making it even more offensive). On top of this, horses pollute the trails in a way that imposes a bunch of sh*tt*ness on other trail users (literally), negatively impacts the ecology of wilderness areas, and makes a mess.

Did I get this right in terms of the different categories of complaints?

If so, for present purposes I'd like to skip the issue raised by the first category (since folks could go round and round about who should defer to whom, etc). However, as somebody who doesn't [yet] have strong feelings one way or another regarding these issues, I guess I'd really like to hear comments from equestrians out there regarding the second category. What do you have to say about the extent to which equestrians are doing their share, by comparison with other groups, to "pay" for their trail use? In addition, what do you have to say about the fact that your vehicles leave so much fecal matter on trails and in wilderness areas? It does sound a bit like crickets chirping (i.e. silence) coming from equestrians on this issue.

Comments equestrians?


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## Kneescar (Feb 26, 2009)

The horse people around here have almost completely ruined a trail system that was built by the MMBA. The only people that do trail upkeep are the mountain bikers. I forget the acreage of the area....4000 maybe but the horse people seem to only use the small amount set aside for bikers. I'm not all that thrilled about horse damage but at the moment it's a stalemate situation. I can handle riding through and around crap but when the equestrians have the nerve to trim the canopy on the singletrack and leave the debris in the middle of the trail, I get really pissed. That's unexcusable.


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*Money*

I'm ambivalent about horses.

On one hand I've been driven off of a fireroad by two riders horses at full gallop that never bothered to slow down. On the other hand they're mighty tasty on a pizza with Ruccolo if they're seasoned properly.

That frivolty out of the way, I've noticed the government has a method of categorizing just about anything in a cost-based manner. The Forest Service/BLM will determine the amount of impact for each user and then charge accordingly when possible.

As an example, in 2000 the Valles Caldera Preservation Act created the Valles Caldera National Preserve, which has to produce a sustaining income. I refer to it as "pay-to-play-after-you've-already-payed" on government owned land. The Valles Caldera is managed by the US Forest Service


If you want to ride a horse in Valles Caldera, it costs $20 per horse.
If you want to ride a mountain bike, it costs $10 per rider.
Based upon the use charges above, bikes create less impact upon the land than horses.

Rant on all you want about pluses, minuses, death, taxes and crap on a stick but it is this type of artifact that is useful in displaying the impact of different users in a National Preserve/Forest.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

This is coming from a long time mountain biker and a horse trainer. Ive done both equally for a long time. And both are very fun. A little tip for you Mtn. biker guys: The horse guys get the hot chicks! Get a hottie on a horse and your in like Flint! It works 9 times out of 9.5! (don't ask) Ok, it didn't work on the midget. Oh sh!t, did I just say that?

Anyway, all you guys are a bunch of wussie winers! All I hear is, horses this, horses that, mountain bikers this, mountain bikers that! You sound like your crying to you mommies. Grow up! We all have the right to be out there. But if the trails are going to be taken away, it will be taken away from us mountain bikers. The horses have had the trails, for literally, thousands of years, no one is going to take them away from the horses. And believe me, 95% of the horse people, don't want to have the trails taken away from anyone. They are affraid they will be next. They're not stupid people.

So my suggestion, in biking, horseback riding and in life in general is to: Go into each and every situation with the attitude that at the back end of that situation, you can hold your head up high, and have respect for yourself, knowing you did your best to do the right thing. And knowing that the others around you, respect you because you did your best to do the right thing. Yeah, sometimes you'll run across a fresh poop. Big deal! If you ride your bike through it, it's your own fault. And yeah, sometimes someone will come around the corner and scare you and your horse. Big deal! Don't ride your horse on a public trail untill it's ready for it. Yep, you have to slow down on your bike from time to time, big deal. Yep, you'll have to pull the pony over to let a bike by, big deal. It all sounds pretty equal to me! So just get over it and have fun! That's what it's all about. For all you people winning to your mommies, I am sure she told you that if you have nothing positive to say, then don't say anything. My mom told me to go for a ride and dont come back until I had a positive attitude. I had to do a lot of riding, but it eventually works!

P.S. I almost forgot: No mater what, there is always going to be that one a$$hole. You just have to deal with that the best you can. I suggest the horse and Mtn bike people getting together and dragging him/her for a mile or two!


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## Cornflake (Jan 17, 2009)

Pithecoid said:


> So, I hate to keep one of these debate threads going unnecessarily, but I've been reading this with real interest. I happen not to ride in a place with lots of equestrian traffic, and while I've backpacked in areas in which I've encountered horses on trails, I don't have sufficient experience to comment on the general/average attitudes that characterize equestrian trail users as a group.
> 
> It sounds to me like there are two categories of gripes being voiced by folks in the MTB community regarding velo-equine relations. First, if I understand things, it sounds like some bikers resent the fact that they (and everyone else, as well) are expected to defer to equestrians, combined with the perception that equestrians display a sense of entitlement and/or superiority.
> 
> ...


Very well said. I expect you won't get a lot of responses from the horse folks here because I don't expect many frequent this forum. And I do have to give some props to the original poster for making the effort to at least try to come over to our forum. That the reception was less than warm and largely be attributed to the two reasons you state. I for one think that our experiences with horse folks would be better if there were more communication between our groups. Who knows, maybe they would at least understand our issues better and be a bit more curtious.

I must admit I too share the negative bias, however. My encounters with horses were almost all at my old home trail, which had single-use trails for hikers, horses and mtb, all connected by a multi-user doubletrack loop. For my own protection, when meeting horses on the doubletrack, I would get off the trail and dismount, putting the bike between myself and the trail. I would always greet the riders in a calm and courtious voice. I was almost universally met with disdain. Actually lectured to once by a rider on a very spooky horse about how the horses don't know what a bike is and are afraid of them (what was I supposed to do? I was already OFF the trail and standing still??) So it's easy to see why a horse person, even a well meaning one, might not get the warmest welcome. Still, I got to give 'em props for trying - it's more than most have done, and it's not like I have ever reached across the aisle to them.


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## natenite (Mar 1, 2009)

The original poster was not trying to reach out. They were jumping in here to lecture and guilt us and "tell us how it is." How many responses have they had since the original? i cant find any. Like always they feel they have the moral superiority so they jump in, tell us how it should be and then go on about their ways. Don't like it one bit. For you bikers that are playing the fence trying to play the "open minded liberal enlightened" bit. lose it. Take the time to really read the posts from those that have had bad experiences and put your self in their shoes. if you did that, honestly, you would get it. The arrogant disrespectful attitude... the judgements they cast on us because we ride bikes... as if we are all thugs and vandals.. they dont know me but they talk to me like I just murdered their first born... There is a point when you must stand up for your self and your friends.. These are the people that need to be reminded that they dont own the woods. biking is as legitimate a hobby as riding a horse.. And has less impact on the trails. When they are willing to accept us as legitimate then I will give an ear to what they have to say... until then... I just treat them in a very neutral way on the trails they are allowed to be on. The other trails... ha ha... well not so much.


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## fourtyfell (Sep 29, 2008)

I'll let you lecture me about my cornering speed being dangerous, when you let me lecture you about your animal ruining the trail. Atleast us mountain bikers don't ruin the trails, we don't ride when its wet or soggy so we "leave no trace". Leave no trace, that means no trace that you were there... so the steaming piles of sh*t and hoof marks.. those are kinda what we call traces.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

saddLLP said:


> Well, I guess we all read what we want to read. Sorry to have taken space on your forum. Let's hope we all meet under good circumstances on the trail. Sorry to have seemed accusatory - thought I was opening a good dialog to tame the tension, not give it a forum to get worse. Back to my own forum to talk about our uncontrollable poop-machines....


First, welcome to the forum. I understand why you posted, and I get your point, and it is a reasonable request. I think some of the flak you are getting may have more to do with the way it was phrased.

I think a large number of riders (at least a vast majority around where I live) get along fine with equestrians. Yes, we grumble about the "_other mud_" in the trails (I don't know that you can truly get how gross it can be until you've ridden through a pile with knobby tires and no fenders), but I think for the most part, 95% of the riders I know just accept them. In ten years of riding (southest, notheast, norcal, and many vacation destinations) I've only had *one *bad encounter with a person on horseback, and I solidly attribute that to his being an arrogant jerk, not to his being on horseback. So, opening with that line may have set a confrontational tone for some.

One thing I would like to point out is that that riding a bike in such a way that you can't stop for something in the trail as clearly visible as a horse is, IMO, irresponsible, and horses are only a small part of the reason. What if it is a person? Or someone wrecked on their bike?

The advice about how to approach a horse is very useful. I think a lot of people just don't get how to handle the situation. I have seen some people on bikes make an OK situation dicey simply out of lack of knowledge. Once they know, they are fine.

Go look at threads on here regarding horses. Yeah, you get a few people very vocal about how much they hate them on the trails, but the vast majority get that they need to make accommodations for another user group and are fine with it.

To those people who have loads of unpleasant experiences with equestrians: Maybe the problem is YOU, not them? Seriously, where do you live? Are you a$$hole magnets in other aspects of your life as well?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> This is coming from a long time mountain biker and a horse trainer. Ive done both equally for a long time. And both are very fun. A little tip for you Mtn. biker guys: The horse guys get the hot chicks! Get a hottie on a horse and your in like Flint! It works 9 times out of 9.5! (don't ask) Ok, it didn't work on the midget. Oh sh!t, did I just say that?
> 
> Anyway, all you guys are a bunch of wussie winers! All I hear is, horses this, horses that, mountain bikers this, mountain bikers that! You sound like your crying to you mommies. Grow up! We all have the right to be out there. But if the trails are going to be taken away, it will be taken away from us mountain bikers. The horses have had the trails, for literally, thousands of years, no one is going to take them away from the horses. And believe me, 95% of the horse people, don't want to have the trails taken away from anyone. They are affraid they will be next. They're not stupid people.
> 
> ...


It is spelled "W-H-I-N-I-N-G"

"you're" as in, a contraction of "you" and "are".

One of the worst things about these threads is you have to listen to the same inane drivel over and over again. Be sure, sir, that you have added nothing to the conversation with this text wall.

"Oh, I should just have fun and deal with all of the things I am so passionate about more quietly? Why didn't you say so!"

Have you picked a place on your mantle for your Nobel Peace Prize?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

kapusta said:


> To those people who have loads of unpleasant experiences with equestrians: Maybe the problem is YOU, not them? Seriously, where do you live? Are you a$$hole magnets in other aspects of your life as well?


I dunno, do I seem like an ******* to you?

I guess I am shouting at the wind with this one but I want to say it anyways:

The demeanor of the person riding the horse has nothing to do with my taking issue with horses in a public setting. It is the nature of a horse that bothers me.

Now, from a practical standpoint, I realize they are going to use the land anyway and there is little to nothing I or anyone can do about it but, I do not think it is beyond reason to expect horse people to clean up after their animals.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

MisterC said:


> One of the worst things about these threads is you have to listen to the same inane drivel over and over again. Be sure, sir, that you have added nothing to the conversation with this text wall.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I was going to say the same thing about the useless inflammatory garbage you have been spewing this whole thread. Talk about adding NOTHING to the conversation......


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

MisterC said:


> I dunno, do I seem like an ******* to you?


Do you really want an honest answer to that?



> The demeanor of the person riding the horse has nothing to do with my taking issue with horses in a public setting. It is the nature of a horse that bothers me.
> 
> Now, from a practical standpoint, I realize they are going to use the land anyway and there is little to nothing I or anyone can do about it but, I do not think it is beyond reason to expect horse people to clean up after their animals.


Well, I was not referring to you specifically with that comment, but rather towards people complaining about the attitude of all the riders.

Yes, I would like them to do something about the poop, but realistically It just does not matter enough to me to get so pissed off about. Maybe I'll go over and ask about it on some horse forums. I'm sure it will bring out all the rabid anti-mtbr's out of the woodwork the way this thread brought out the horse-hate here.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Slander, I say, slander, sir!

Whatever I said that was inflammatory was just in good fun. Except for the things I said that were true...like pointing out that telling everyone to "just get along" in 3000 words is stupid.

Its a rhetorical question and again, in good fun.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

And yes, sometimes I take offense to someone telling me to take it on the chin as though it didn't occur to me or that I don't already.

As I said before, I'm not militant about the issue, I just gripe about it here because this is where you go to gripe.

I argue healthcare reform with my dad, I don't expect it to change anything, it's just interesting conversation.


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## swampboy62 (Feb 10, 2009)

There are two places that I ride that have equestrian trails as well.

The first place has separate trails for horses & bikes. I'm always finding horse crap and hoof-holes on the mtb trail. I've never seen a mtb or tire tracks leading onto the horse trails.

The second place has 90% of the trails for horses, and ONE trail for hikers & mtb only. I've been on that trail dozens of times, and there is ALWAYS horse crap and hoof-holes on the trail. These trails are CLEARLY marked "no horses". There are two stables on the land adjacent to the park land where the trails are located. The stables have trails from their private property back to the horse trails. I've encountered one guy, leading trail rides, on the "no horses" trails FIVE times. Every time I tell him "This is a no-horses trail." And every time he says he didn't know that (an obvious lie). I've reported him to the park management, but their staff has been cut to the point where they're barely able to keep the park going. I've also reported them to the local law - no response. BTW I also kayak at this park, and have encountered horses on the trail while carrying my boat (again - illegally on a "no-horses" trail). They let me know that my big yellow kayak may scare the horses - so I put it down in the weeds off trail and moved into the woods to let them pass. Amazing the lengths other users have to go through to accommodate them.

On this thread I see a lot of posts saying to put forth a good positive image for mtbrs - but not much acknowledging that the horsers need to put forth a more positive image as well. My experience has led me to have a very NEGATIVE image of them. This isn't me just saying something to p!ss folks off - it's just a result of the reality I've experienced. BTW I come from a family that has had horses for the last 25 years. Fortunately they know how to obey the rules while riding, just as my brother and I do on our mtb.

Steve Z


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

swampboy62 said:


> On this thread I see a lot of posts saying to put forth a good positive image for mtbrs - but not much acknowledging that the horsers need to put forth a more positive image as well.
> Steve Z


I see your point, and it is true.

The way I approach it, this is an MTB site, and I think it is more constructive to talk about what we CAN do, rather then what they SHOULD do. But I guess the two are not mutually exclusive. It's just that some people, including myself after 10 years of riding trails, don't really have too many issues with horses, and I see them on many rides. So it's not like we are _pretending _the problem is not there. In fact, for many of us, it ISN'T there, and most of what I see is just mtbr's b!tching about horses, and relaying stories that make me cringe with embarrassment as a biker. Perhaps I am just ignorant of what other people have had to deal with. That's why I am often asking where these things happen, because I've ridden all over the country and I never run into these problems. Just poop.

The other reason I think more about our actions is simply _results_. Complaining and b!tching about other people does not get you what you want (and can often be counterproductive) in this kind of situation. Changing the public's perception of US does.

I just signed up on an equestrian forum. I am considering asking the question about options available to alleviate the "_other mud_" problem. We keep talking about it, but I'd like to know if a practical means really is available.

Anyway, my apologies to anyone here I was too judgmental of. I don't know what everyone else has encountered out there. It may be worse than I realize.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

*Horses and Bikes - good, bad and deadly*



> There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open.
> 
> We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day.
> 
> ...


Don't tell me the "fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along" These are not the facts. Automobiles didn't cause all the roads to close because they didn't learn to get along with horse and buggy's.

Here are some facts. Equestrians represent about 2-5% of trail users. They are small in numbers but they do as much damage as motorized users. I have over 4000 hours of trail work experience and have rarely seen even one equestrian volunteer working on the trails their animals are destroying. They turn a firm trail surface into powder. They knock all sorts of rocks loose onto the trail. They destroy waterbars and grade dips designed to prevent erosion. On steep hillsides, horses will walk nearest to the edge of the trail and knock the outer part of the trail down the mountain. They don't even think about wet conditions when planning a ride. The riders know they'll be high and dry and are indifferent about the thousands of dollars in damage their animal is doing as it postholes it's way through a soft muddy trail. Try hiking the Grand Canyon. If you head down the Bright Angel Trail, you better be prepared to spend the day smelling mule urine and mule droppings, all so out of shape tourists can have their fat asses hauled into the canyon.

saddLLP, horses are not capable of jumping 10 feet sideways in the air. You are embellishing in an attempt to place blame on others. Few corners are truly blind corners. If you are paying even a little attention to what you are doing and where you are going, you will see movement through even dog hair thickets. As a trail builder, I stop my bike and pull out a folding limb saw and thin out thickets of trees or shrubs that block sight lines. It wouldn't kill you to drag your lazy butt off that horse and do the same, if you have any concern about safety.

And don't insult serious mountain bikers by telling them you have the same adea of fun as they do. You don't. You, and I'm speaking in general about the local horse riding community, are somewhere between obese and morbidly obese. You don't want to break a sweat when you recreate. You want an animal to do all the work for you. You want to be able to ride on mountain biker created and maintained trails and damage them all you want with no accountability, no personal responsibility.

I have news for you. We have numbers on our side. We have the ability to shove you out to wilderness areas. Those old timer horsemen working for the Forest Service are retiring and are being replaced by people who recognize the need to sequester equestrians far from mountain bikers. The more of these conflicts between horse and bike, the sooner horses will be banned, not the other way around. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. We represent 50% or more of trail users and most of the volunteers maintaining the trails. I learned a long time ago that their are Sierra Club members who would make friendly public statements about how they just wanted to get along with bikers, while at the same time they had a charter that said we were a destructive bunch and had to be removed from all public lands. They would constantly write letters to congressmen and ask for all public lands to be off limits to bikes, while pretending to get along in public. There is a battle going on for access and for keeping our trails maintained. If you ride a horse, you are the enemy, no matter how friendly you wish to act. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to return to the trail I was riding yesterday and repair the earthen waterbars that the horses blew out yesterday morning.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I love horses on multi-use trails.. Lot's of hotties and MILFS usually riding them, that have a good outlook on life around here, especially in Cheeseboro. Equestrians are always welcome!


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

kapusta said:


> I just signed up on an equestrian forum. I am considering asking the question about options available to alleviate the "_other mud_" problem. We keep talking about it, but I'd like to know if a practical means really is available.


Just don't link back to this thread, or even mention it. Could start a war, if the people there are as militant as here.


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Mixed use trails would be fine if they didn't invite so many idiots who don't know how to behave out in public without road signs telling them.

Kinda makes one want to just take down all the traffic signs in the middle of the night, just to observe the chaos.


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## Camshaft213 (Feb 16, 2008)

Curmy said:


> The word. Most horses taken out by amateur riders are poorly trained.
> 
> If you want to play with an unpredictable toy that weights a ton it is your responsibility to make sure it is under control.
> 
> ...


this


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I am pretty disappointed that OP bailed so quickly - they must not be used to internet board style discussion. So much for dialogue...

Attitudes vary hugely based on region, and whether horses are working horses or oversized pets. We've got a pretty good relationship with the BackCountry Horsemen around here and have done many joint projects with them. It's a pretty active group that does a lot of deadfall clearing and other work.


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## sickspeed16 (Apr 9, 2008)

I took the step into the cornfield...
http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/i-walk-alone-here-dangerous-territory-33946/


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

lyndonchen said:


> Just don't link back to this thread, or even mention it. Could start a war, if the people there are as militant as here.


No, I won't. I won't even mention that I mountain bike.


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## sickspeed16 (Apr 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> No, I won't. I won't even mention that I mountain bike.


oops...


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

sickspeed16 said:


> oops...


Huh?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read you post below.

I'll try a different forum.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

sickspeed16 said:


> oops...


Dont see anything inflamatory , very well thought out ,consise, non combative . Who knows might be the begining of mutual respect , cooperation .


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## tone capone (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm fine with sharing the trails with horses. I am happy with the status quo, I just realize and expect that:

#1: Horses still freak out even if you are "making noise around a blind corner" and stop 50 feet away from them.

#2: Two horses do as much damage to some trails, notably sidehill ones, as about 100,000 mountain bikers, and probably even more than motos. Usually this means that I do some repairs on blown out sidehills on the way up to facilitate my downhill enjoyment without a trip off the side.

So yeah, I can keep myself happy sharing the trails just fine. I would just feel bad if an equestrian were to fall to their death when 

A: Their horse freaks out and bucks them off when I stop 50 feet away, and

B: Their horse slips when it is blowing out a perfectly good sidehill trail that would otherwise last for hundreds of years under normal usage by mountain bikes. 

As far as the poop, to me it's just more organic matter to fill in the hoof holes.


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## ionsmuse (Jul 14, 2005)

sickspeed16 said:


> I took the step into the cornfield...
> http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/i-walk-alone-here-dangerous-territory-33946/


Good on ya.

However, I have to agree with much of what The Prodigal Sun wrote, if not with his tone. It'll be a long, long time before horses get booted out of the Teton Wilderness, but I look forward to the day it happens.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Cornflake said:


> Very well said. I expect you won't get a lot of responses from the horse folks here because I don't expect many frequent this forum. And I do have to give some props to the original poster for making the effort to at least try to come over to our forum. That the reception was less than warm and largely be attributed to the two reasons you state. I for one think that our experiences with horse folks would be better if there were more communication between our groups. Who knows, maybe they would at least understand our issues better and be a bit more curtious.
> 
> I must admit I too share the negative bias, however. My encounters with horses were almost all at my old home trail, which had single-use trails for hikers, horses and mtb, all connected by a multi-user doubletrack loop. For my own protection, when meeting horses on the doubletrack, I would get off the trail and dismount, putting the bike between myself and the trail. I would always greet the riders in a calm and courtious voice. I was almost universally met with disdain. Actually lectured to once by a rider on a very spooky horse about how the horses don't know what a bike is and are afraid of them (what was I supposed to do? I was already OFF the trail and standing still??) So it's easy to see why a horse person, even a well meaning one, might not get the warmest welcome.....


Mostly agree, I'm always polite to other people that I meet on the trail and the majority of horse riders take a holier-than-thou attitude even so. I always stop, dismount, get off the trail and let them pass. To all of them (including the rude ones) just smile, tell them to have a nice day and ride on.

The horse trails are the only trails with trenches worn into the ground, sometimes about 1 foot wide and two feet deep. The higher alpine trails are trashed after a couple weeks of heavy horse useage....the soil is turned to powdered silt and is almost un-rideable by bikes in some places due to deep silt and exposed rocks and roots. Then winter comes and the rains was all this away and now the once sweet singletrack turns into one giant rut. Not to mention the huge piles of steaming poo everywhere which can spread parasites....all of which run into the streams and lakes.

It would be nice to share the trails, but it gets rather trying at times.



The Prodigal Son said:


> Don't tell me the "fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along" These are not the facts. Automobiles didn't cause all the roads to close because they didn't learn to get along with horse and buggy's.
> 
> Here are some facts. Equestrians represent about 2-5% of trail users. They are small in numbers but they do as much damage as motorized users. I have over 4000 hours of trail work experience and have rarely seen even one equestrian volunteer working on the trails their animals are destroying. They turn a firm trail surface into powder. They knock all sorts of rocks loose onto the trail. They destroy waterbars and grade dips designed to prevent erosion. On steep hillsides, horses will walk nearest to the edge of the trail and knock the outer part of the trail down the mountain. They don't even think about wet conditions when planning a ride. The riders know they'll be high and dry and are indifferent about the thousands of dollars in damage their animal is doing as it postholes it's way through a soft muddy trail. Try hiking the Grand Canyon. If you head down the Bright Angel Trail, you better be prepared to spend the day smelling mule urine and mule droppings, all so out of shape tourists can have their fat asses hauled into the canyon.
> 
> ...


Amen and well said.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Pithecoid said:


> So, I hate to keep one of these debate threads going unnecessarily, but I've been reading this with real interest. I happen not to ride in a place with lots of equestrian traffic, and while I've backpacked in areas in which I've encountered horses on trails, I don't have sufficient experience to comment on the general/average attitudes that characterize equestrian trail users as a group.
> 
> It sounds to me like there are two categories of gripes being voiced by folks in the MTB community regarding velo-equine relations. First, if I understand things, it sounds like some bikers resent the fact that they (and everyone else, as well) are expected to defer to equestrians, combined with the perception that equestrians display a sense of entitlement and/or superiority.
> 
> ...


So, I'll try the question again, a different way. After reading the comments of many MTBers, WHY SHOULDN'T I become an anti-horse advocate for multi-use trails in general? I favor keeping public lands accessible to everyone generally, but the costs/benefits of different kinds of use are a vital consideration, of course (e.g. we generally don't allow uses that unnecessarily and seriously endanger and/or impose on other users -- and of course serious discussion and debate should factor into decisions about where to draw the lines).

So, to the equestrians, the biker/equestrians, and/or the bikers sympathetic to horses sharing the trails, what's the argument for them, aside from stating that "well it's legal for us/them to be there", or "we/they have been using the wilderness for eons", or "let's just get along happy happy (but don't confuse or bother me with issues of privileges, responsibilities, costs, and benefits of different uses)". Seriously? And, again, I'm asking as a neutral party with no personal experiences generating bias one way or another (though having difficulty avoiding being moved by the anecdotes of others).

Can nobody comment directly on this?


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## w00t! (Apr 28, 2008)

This entire thread is retarded and most of you are acting like whiney-azz punk beyotches.

I'd rather not see horse poop either, but some of you biznatches are really blowing it way out of proportion. 

The bottom line is a horse is a horse of course of course and you punk muvafukkas need to shut your gawdamm moufs and follow the rules and yield, mm'kay?


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Pithecoid said:


> So, I'll try the question again, a different way. After reading the comments of many MTBers, WHY SHOULDN'T I become an anti-horse advocate for multi-use trails in general?


Because it's not fair. We can't ban horses because they inconvenience us or their riders look down their noses at us. *All the arguments against equestrians could be used against us, by hikers* (except for the poop thing).


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

w00t! said:


> This entire thread is retarded and most of you are acting like whiney-azz punk beyotches.
> 
> I'd rather not see horse poop either, but some of you biznatches are really blowing it way out of proportion.
> 
> The bottom line is a horse is a horse of course of course and you punk muvafukkas need to shut your gawdamm moufs and follow the rules and yield, mm'kay?


No offense, but talk about turning this into a "retarded" thread. Seems like some people are attempting to have some kind of discussion about the current state of affairs and whether it's reasonable, fair, tolerable, preferable, awesome, fer-shizzle, etc.

Apologies if the grown-up discussions from people who care about being involved in trail-access issues (rather than just sitting on the sidelines, sucking it up, mocking others like children, free-riding, etc.) are just too serious or complex for you.

Shiite, I guess I'm such a biznatch. Better take a ride to go clear my head...


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2008)

MisterC said:


> We call it hyperbole and I only use it when I really need it.
> 
> I will never understand this mentality and it is just...ugh...everywhere. Yeah rules...are rules, I get that. Doesn't make them right.
> 
> ...


only the first question was aimed at you, sorry if it came across otherwise, i wasnt specificall telling you to do anything, just to other people in this thread
and yes, i completely agree that horses can be dangerous- but cant we be just as bad by not taking care around them?
its not the horses fault its dangerous, and most of the time its not the riders either, but people cant ignore that they can be, and just blame it on the rider for being ignorant of other users like a lot of people can be. i think a danger on the trail is good enough reason to be carefull, and really what difference does it make to be carefull, unless your in a race or something?

i bet most people here have no idea how much it would cost to have a horse trained to not flinch and have perfect behaviour, and believe me it would be a lot, everything about horses is expensive because theyre big, hard to train animals that can need a real specialist to train them.

a lot of you are trying to make out that the riders arnt trying hard enough to controll or train their horses, but trust me almost everyone who has a horse tries to make sure that theyre trained to be able to cope with things without spooking, but to get to that next level where they dont spook would take so much professional training that most places simply dont offer, is so hard, time consuming and expensive.
people cant expect the horse riders to do everything, theres gotta be sacrafice on both sides, and for us, its slow down a little or be more carefull and considerate


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lyndonchen said:


> Because it's not fair.


What is not fair are the lies that equestrians spread about cycling, and cycling exclusion from prime public lands that had been lobbied by them.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> trust me almost everyone who has a horse tries to make sure that theyre trained to be able to cope with things without spooking, but to get to that next level where they dont spook would take so much professional training that most places simply dont offer, is so hard, time consuming and expensive.


The only logical conclusion is that such untrained horses do not belong on public lands.

Time consuming and expensive? My heart bleeds for them.



[email protected] said:


> people cant expect the horse riders to do everything,


It is reasonable to expect that they do not endanger people around them. Don't you expect drivers on the road to be able to control their cars?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

lyndonchen said:


> Because it's not fair. We can't ban horses because they inconvenience us or their riders look down their noses at us. *All the arguments against equestrians could be used against us, by hikers* (except for the poop thing).


Yeah, except for the poop issue, we are living in glass houses.

_Some _MTBers build illegal trails. _Some _MTBers ride out of control and nearly run people over. _Some _MTBers skid a lot and rip the sh!t out of the trails. _Some _MTBers ride when it is too muddy. _Some _MTBers don't do any maintenance. _Some _MTBers litter. Some MTBers ride on trails closed to bikes or on private property. Some MTBers build up fallen logs, making it harder for a horse to get across.

Thankfully, I don't know of any that have crapped on the trail.


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## EATmySHORTZ (Mar 22, 2009)

Horseback Riders remind me of this situation!

A friend comes over to your house, He eats all your food, He rides your bike, complains that it sucks and then breaks it. He hits on your wife and when you finally yell at him He says "Dude, Can't we just get along?". 

I agree 100% with Prodigal. Screw apologizing. Next time you see their horse crap on the trail. Grab a glove and shove it under their door handle on their truck. They'll love that! It's only horse poop right. No big deal!
You know how the HB riders fix their trails near me. They throw some logs on them and start a new one!:thumbsup: Lazy Fux!


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> What is not fair are the lies that equestrians spread about cycling, and cycling exclusion from prime public lands that had been lobbied by them.


So the solution is to exclude equestrians from prime public lands? Yeah that'll help us out. Btw, this whole thread is cyclists spreading lies and generalities about how equestrians operate. There's gonna be bad apple equestrians, just like there are bad apple cyclists. The vast majority of both groups can coexist just fine.

One more thing. Being afraid of horses or pretending that they endanger anyone but their own riders is ridiculous.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Typical......these threads usually end up this way:


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2008)

Curmy said:


> The only logical conclusion is that such untrained horses do not belong on public lands.
> 
> Time consuming and expensive? My heart bleeds for them.
> 
> It is reasonable to expect that they do not endanger people around them. Don't you expect drivers on the road to be able to control their cars?


so you think only the worlds top horses should be allowed out for their riders and the rest of the public to enjoy?
and they dont endanger people around them for no reason, something scares them so they react, same with every animal including humans
and if you think theres the chance of you being in danger, why dont you use what very little sense you have, and be carefull, a horse wont kick you if you've stopped to let it pass, but yes it might if you go speeding past it, and it from your arrogance, you sound like one of those people, so i just want you to know how bothered i'll be when it happens to you
which isnt a lot, i might go grab a beer and throw a party in fact

and slight difference between a living being and a bundle of metal parts, dont you think?

or are you too stupid to realise that?

my heart bleeds for them? whats that supposed to mean except that your so far up yourself that you dont give a toss about anyone else

so why dont you do me a favour and shut the f_ _ _ up while i do myself a favour and delete this from my susbcribed threads, so i can get away from selfish tw_ts like you


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Simple communication between user groups is likely to be more productive than baseless accusations and outright lies and fear mongering . There is absolutly no reason that all user groups cannot learn from the others . A little education and understanding will go a long way to aliviate frictions between users . Instead of alienating others we should be making allies out of them .


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

i don't like riding through horse poo


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> so you think only the worlds top horses should be allowed out for their riders and the rest of the public to enjoy?


It is not our fault that their favorite toys are dangerous. If they can not train them, there are private lands for them to play.

Are you too dumb to get it? Apparently you are.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> i bet most people here have no idea how much it would cost to have a horse trained to not flinch and have perfect behaviour, and believe me it would be a lot, everything about horses is expensive because theyre big, hard to train animals that can need a real specialist to train them.
> 
> a lot of you are trying to make out that the riders arnt trying hard enough to controll or train their horses, but trust me almost everyone who has a horse tries to make sure that theyre trained to be able to cope with things without spooking, but to get to that next level where they dont spook would take so much professional training that most places simply dont offer, is so hard, time consuming and expensive.
> people cant expect the horse riders to do everything, theres gotta be sacrafice on both sides, and for us, its slow down a little or be more carefull and considerate


That's their own damn fault, you got to play to pay, otherwise you're just an irresponsible a$$. Most riders are out there with helmets and bikes capable of stopping. Most of the helmetless riders on unsafe bikes are usually riding in the city, not on the trails. So mountain bikers by and large do what is necessary to have a safe trail-vehicle. Do equestrians? Do they train them adequately for encountering bikes or are they just lazy?

Seriously, I'm supposed to feel sad or sorry that they can't afford to train their dumb animal? Thats like me buying a $2000 bike and not having enough money left over for gloves, helmet, pack, etc.


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## WickedGood (Aug 19, 2008)

http://www.backcountryhorse.com/

This is for everyone who thinks horse people don't do trail work.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> so you think only the worlds top horses should be allowed out for their riders and the rest of the public to enjoy?


Well, it's like going to Northstar or Whistler on a wal-mart bike. It's flat out unsafe and irresponsible, whether you're the person that bought it or someone that contributed (with knowledge of this). Or maybe it's like riding in those places without a helmet. Yeah, these situatinos probably should not be allowed as they are dangerous and could present a significant hazard to all the people on the trails. Usually they don't have any problems with this because common sense prevails, but I wouldn't say the same for horses.

How many bikes are out there, a LOT more than there are mountain bikes, but we see 99.9% mountain bikes on the trail, so for this genra, we do see only the "worlds top" bikes.

It seems a little rediculous to be talking about this, but the basic point is that yes, you have to pay to play. Otherwise you're creating a hazard for everyone else. Kind of like car-racing. They don't just let you go race, you have to do hours of training and so on, otherwise you'd wreck your own car and probably endanger other people. How expensive is that? People do it though.

From your point of view, equestrians just want instant gratification. Just go buy a horse and some minimal equipment, and with minimal training take them out on the trail. What right do they have to be endangering other people for their "fun"?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

WickedGood said:


> This is for everyone who thinks horse people don't do trail work.


Around here, they do not. My taxes pay for the trails they enjoy, and bikers do not.


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## druranium (Apr 6, 2007)

EATmySHORTZ said:


> You know how the HB riders fix their trails near me. They throw some logs on them and start a new one!:thumbsup: Lazy Fux!


This reminds me of the trails in my area. Once the horseys have ruined a line of singletrack by turning it into a quicksand pit, the hikers and bikers move over to firm ground, then the horseys start using the new 'lane' and ruin that one too. Sooner or later all you have is a 9 foot wide sand pit. In some steep areas, the trail just gets abandoned / diverted because it is too trenched out to hike or ride. :thumbsup:


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## goingblankagain (Jun 22, 2009)

Horses, the other red meat.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> From your point of view, equestrians just want instant gratification. Just go buy a horse and some minimal equipment, and with minimal training take them out on the trail. What right do they have to be endangering other people for their "fun"?


From a hiker's point of view, mountain bikers just want instant gratification. Just go buy a bike and some minimal equipment, and with no training whatsoever take it out on the trail. What right do they have to be endangering other people for their "fun"?

To a lot of hikers, we appear as hurtling 200lb flesh and metal missiles, on trails 8 inches wide, with just enough ability and sense to brake (maybe) in time. We're basically accidents waiting to happen, endangering hiker life and limb. That's not the way _we_ see it of course, but hikers certainly do. We are in the same boat as equestrians, people. To argue that equestrians should be forced off the trails is to damage our own position.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

lyndonchen said:


> From a hiker's point of view, mountain bikers just want instant gratification. Just go buy a bike and some minimal equipment, and with no training whatsoever take it out on the trail. What right do they have to be endangering other people for their "fun"?
> 
> To a lot of hikers, we appear as hurtling 200lb flesh and metal missiles, on trails 8 inches wide, with just enough ability and sense to brake (maybe) in time. We're basically accidents waiting to happen, endangering hiker life and limb. That's not the way _we_ see it of course, but hikers certainly do. We are in the same boat as equestrians, people. To argue that equestrians should be forced off the trails is to damage our own position.


Well, I'm not arguing one way or another at this point, but I don't think this is the only issue that's been made relevant here. 
Any group that wants trail access should be able to demonstrate that they don't pose an unreasonable (with that being the operative, and contentious, word) risk to other trail users. The additional issues, of course, involve whether users pay their fair share for use. Arguing that Group X should have access denied because they generate more costs and/or expect more benefits than other users is not the same as arguing that a group should be excluded because they're perceived as dangerous. It sounds to me here like a lot of (though not all) irritated MTBers on this forum implicitly accept the risks of having horses on the trail. Rather, the complaints mostly seem to be about the perception that horses do more than their fair share of damage, and leave more than their fair share of mess, and that equestrians do less than their fair share of maintenance (and moreover exhibit attitudes of "entitlement" -- as opposed to the common cyclists practice of trying to generate good will and acceptance by expressing real friendliness toward hikers, for instance). I can't assess this, but that's what lots of people seem to perceive here. 
In that way, it's not the case that arguing for excluding horses necessarily damages the MTBers position (of course, arguing for exclusion isn't necessary here; the argument could simply be for what MTBers feel would be a fairer arrangement).


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Maybe the guy who registered over there could reply "Horse diapers" to the person who posted, "what are they supposed to do about the poo?"

I would also like to read a *sincere* horseperson's response for the justification for horse -created post holes and bogs. Is there not a trail care ethic within the horse community? Maybe the damage inflicted is just off their radar, ( as is the poop)


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

w00t! said:


> This entire thread is retarded and most of you are acting like whiney-azz punk beyotches.
> 
> I'd rather not see horse poop either, but some of you biznatches are really blowing it way out of proportion.
> 
> The bottom line is a horse is a horse of course of course and you punk muvafukkas need to shut your gawdamm moufs and follow the rules and yield, mm'kay?


Let's keep this on topic, professional (so to speak), and non-emotional....thanks. :thumbsup:



lyndonchen said:


> So the solution is to exclude equestrians from prime public lands? Yeah that'll help us out. Btw, this whole thread is cyclists spreading lies and generalities about how equestrians operate. There's gonna be bad apple equestrians, just like there are bad apple cyclists. The vast majority of both groups can coexist just fine.
> 
> One more thing. Being afraid of horses or pretending that they endanger anyone but their own riders is ridiculous.


Not necessarily. Yes of course there are bad apples of every flavor. Yes, generally...

I'm not afraid of horses, but over the years I have seen more people kicked, thrown and dragged by supposedly well-behaved horses that I don't trust any horse, at all! That is one more reason that I try to give them plenty of room to pass on trails, you never know what they are going to do. In one instance the horse owner (my sister) was walking the horse through a field and it decided to take off....jerked the rider into the air and threw her (by jerking his head up and over as she held the reins and walked the horse), then it took off running while my sister was dragged until she remembered to let go of the reins! She has also had her foot stepped on by her other horse....didn't break her foot but sure bruised the **** out of it.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

We have a horse and both my wife and I ride bikes......those of you that don't ride horses will never know what it is like to have a bike come haulin' ass around a blind turn. Try it out....it may change your mind.


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## 40hills (Apr 24, 2006)

druranium said:


> I always get the hell out of the way when I see them coming. No interest in getting kicked anywhere by one of them or having them rear up and buck the rider off. I would feel really bad if that happened, even though i wouldn't exactly consider it 'my fault'.


Same here, and I am always friendly to the riders to promote good relations (but sometimes don't get it in return). However, on one ride deep in Pisgah Forest NC last year me and a buddy came head on to a pair of "equestrians" on a narrow trail. One of the two horses was obviously nervous so we dismounted to the side of the trail as far as we could pressed up against the thick underbrush (it was thick, so we could only get about 3' off the trail) so they could pass. We also spoke to them and tried to look like humans to the horses. It didn't work. Sure enough, the nervous horse spooked just as it passed us, bucked the rider off hard on his @ss, and took off down the trail. The guy was ok I guess, but I think left in some pain.

We did everything we reasonably could to make this a safe encounter etc... but that pea-brained horse still spazzed out. We felt bad about it, but for crying out loud these trails have a lot of bike traffic and if a horse is that spooked by bikes then they shouldn't be out there.

... and here's my 2 cent contribution to the thread...

I see this as a two-way street where all trail users need to be aware of the other's "issues" and be respectful and accommodating. That means bikers should be aware that some horses are spazzes and should try and minimize the risk when around them, and the equestrians should be aware that bikes can approach fast and should train their horses appropriately, but at the same time, bikers should NOT be expected to dismount and treat equestrians like kings and queens who rule the trail. Do equestrians dismount when bikes approach? I've never seen that happen.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Hopefully both user groups can find some common ground and move forward . It would be advantagous for everyone involved to work together to preserve rather than exclude the precious resource that we have in common.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

sickspeed16 said:


> I took the step into the cornfield...
> http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/i-walk-alone-here-dangerous-territory-33946/


My god man what have you done! 

I read the horse forum response and it seems they feel much less guilty about the poop situation then we would have hoped, seems they think they need a pitchfork and a ladder to be bothered to get off and clean up.

What exactly was the problem with the bags that automatically catch the poop?

And No horse poop is not a pure organic part of nature. When I'm in the woods I enjoy smelling trees and fresh air, not horse sh*t

As far as trail yielding and horse spooking is concerned, if a horse is still spooked after I've come to a complete stop, or gotten off of my bike 30 feet away, then that horse is unsafe for the trails and it is the rider's fault if they are injured, and are liable for any injuries of damages the horse inflicts. If they don't like it or think we should bend over more than that then those horses should not be allowed on the trail.

The majority of equestrians I have come across have been in perfect control and waved me by without me needing to get off my bike.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

It still seems to me that equestrians are unwilling to accept the reality that their horses may be poorly trained, and also unwilling to accept the responsibility associated with riding an animal that can't be controlled. In response to one of the above posts about "you won't understand until you're riding a horse and a biker comes around a corner". Did the biker stop before the horse? If so, then he did the right thing. If you're horse gets spooked, that's your own fault. It's not the horses fault for doing what it does in nature, but you are riding a horse, it's not just ranging free in nature. It's your responsibility. Just like IF I was to run hikers off the trail or run into them, that would be MY responsibility. There may be some other contributing factors, but by and large you're trying to pawn off the fact that you are not in control of your animal on other trail users. If I let out half the brake fluid and steering fluid in my car and then went driving down the road, who's fault would it be when I get in an accident because I couldn't stop or control my car? Would I blame it on the lady trying to cross the street? "She should have seen my car comming and pulled off to the side and talked nicely to my car as it passed by". Would I blame the car around the corner that tried to pull out of their driveway before I could see them? "They shouldn't have been trying to pull out of their driveway around a blind corner when there are other cars comming". No, it would be my fault for driving a vehicle that I could not control.


So why is this different with horses? 

I'm not completely opposed to sharing trails, I'm opposed to equestrians not taking responsibility for their decisions and actions. 

Horse damage:


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Equestrians probably don't realize that once a trail with holes like that dries up it will be completely ruined for bike use for sometimes months.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Just so it doesn't seem too one-sided, here's one of Sedona where some riders thought it was SO important to go ride when the trails were screwed up. I found another place to hike, but this kind of damage is unacceptable when it comes from mtbers as well. With that said, I see far more damage more frequently from equestrians.


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## lostmaniksoul (Jul 20, 2009)

I've got nothing against horses (my wife is thinking of getting one) but I don't understand how MTBs get a bad rep for "destroying" natural terrain yet 1500lb charging mammals with 4 huge legs and massive hooves seem to get a free pass when it comes to dishing out the lashings during the local council meetings? Never mind all the sh1t that I have to bunnyhop all the time...

And I don't know what all the fear is with the equestrian crowd because if I knew I was going to get into a head on collision at 30 mph I know which one I would rather be riding, and it wouldn't be the 45lb downhill bike! A full face helmet and no amount of body armor is going to save your ass from a collision with Black Beauty. It would be like riding head on into a brick wall. 

However, with that said, I still give way to all horses, dogs, tuxedo cats and squirrels.


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## Kneescar (Feb 26, 2009)

fourtyfell said:


> I'll let you lecture me about my cornering speed being dangerous, when you let me lecture you about your animal ruining the trail. Atleast us mountain bikers don't ruin the trails, we don't ride when its wet or soggy so we "leave no trace". Leave no trace, that means no trace that you were there... so the steaming piles of sh*t and hoof marks.. those are kinda what we call traces.


I've "left a trace" a couple times while out in the woods. I left it off trail and now that I think about it, I was hiking that day so technically we can blame them. :thumbsup:

Anyone barking that same leave no trace mantra better never have left a fallen water bottle in the woods...just saying. When I did hike a lot it was unbeleivable how many water bottles, red bull cans and gel wrappers I would pick up.

Far as the poo situation, parade bags would be a great help. That and not shoveling out the trailer in the trailhead parking lot. That's a real pisser, watching someone empty the trailer of every ounce of crap onto the gravel. All that does is messes up the lot and attracts even more flies.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Not a lot of multi-use trails here in se Minnesota. Most of our trails are built/maintained by mtbikers. It's pretty rare to see cross country skiers or equestrians ever helping out with trail work.
I recently was in Colorado Springs, and rode some of Palmer park. The first user we met was a lady on a horse. We were going uphill, she was coming down. I said hi, the first thing she did was admonish us to stop and let her pass. She gave us the horses are flight animals routine etc. (my gf is a veterinarian specifically equine in the past but now small animal and has horses and knows probably more about them then her) In fact I think on the trail guide it does say to let horses past, but it also states to keep your dog on a leash which she did not, he was running loose beside her.
Anyway my gf pretty much told the lady to control her horse, and if it wasn't comfortable in such a setting maybe it would be better to ride elsewhere. It seemed to be a busy trail even mid-week and the lady had to know that.
The second horse rider we met was a guy. He actually stepped his horse aside, smiled and said hello to us. He didn't seem bothered by us the least, nor did his animal. I should add that we slowed down for each rider, almost to a crawl as we passed.
I think it solidifies the notion that no matter what the activity, there are buttholes in every group, and genuinely good people in each group.


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## Soupboy (Jan 13, 2004)

Horse, the other white meat.


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## trvlingheart (Aug 16, 2009)

I'll venture to make a response as an equestrian. 

I think there are far more people that ride that live on an average income than most think. In all my years of riding I can only claim to have ridden with the rich and not so famous a hand ful of times, maybe it was just where I was riding.... maybe it wasn't who knows. 

Most of the trails that I rode on we paid for a pass to be on the park, the rest of the trials I rode on were on military bases and private property only a few trails were on public non park trails. As an equestrian I (and those I rode with) followed the posted signs and only rode on trails approved for horses, we steered clear of bike paths and hiking paths. I never had a problem with hikers or bikers, no complaints against me or by me. There were plenty of times when I moved off the trail when I heard the bikes coming, and there were plenty of times when the bikers moved off the trail to let us pass. And if there were no signs posted we did our best to follow our instinct and stayed off trails that our horses didn't fit on.

I think for the most part it is a lack of education on all parties... even on the part of some equestrians riding horses that just arn't prepared to be on a multi-use trail. Even the most well trained horse can and will spook even at something it knows well (Its like me sitting at my sink washing my dishes, my husband is in the house I know he's in the house, but he still scares the crap out of me from time to time when I don't hear him walking up behind me.) and sometimes its the rider's fault. Most horses will hear a biker on the trail way before their rider ever does. And some riders will cause the horse to overreact, by overreacting them selves. They don't mean to, but it happens. I agree if a horse isn't prepared to share a trail, it's rider shouldn't take it out on the trail and it is the rider's responsibility to make that decision. But it is like anything, the worst experiances are the most remembered and talked about. I agree that blind corners should be approched carefully by everyone, and announcing oneself around corners or when approching from behind should be common practice.

Poop on a trail.... Well my first thought is that horse manuer is used as fertilizer, infact at the stables that was our number one way of getting rid of the manuer. We'd pile it up and farmers and gardeners would come by and pick it up by the bucket/truck load. It's a biodegradeable waste, and most of the time after a day or two you wouldn't even know it is there. Alot of horses poop while walking, and most riders never know it happens unless there is someone riding behind them to let them know. But there is a large amount of horses that do stop to poop and leave piles. I think that most equestrians don't give it a second thought because it is a natural product that does break down very quickly. It's not like dog poop it doesn't stick in your shoes and it's not easy to miss and on most trails it doesn't take up much room. I'll be honest, I've never thought of carrying a pitch-fork or shovel on a trail with me while horseback riding.. my first thought is where would I put one? I don't ride with a pack on my horse and there have only been a few times that I've ridden with a pack on my back. But also there are plenty of wild animals that poop in the wild and on the trails.

Upkeep on the trails, it isn't fair to lump all equestrians in to one and say none of them do upkeep on the trails and also to say they all litter... There are plenty of people that care about the trails they ride on just and there are plenty that don't... I'd assume its the same for bikers. I for one pay attention to the bulliten boards at the trail entrances and the parking lots watching for park clean ups and volunteering when we can. Most of the time there isn't much group effort or notifications. However we've done trail cleanup on our own. And I don't litter, I have actually been handed a flyer on a trail before and it was folded up and placed in my pocket. As for hoof prints.. well there isn't much that can be done about them. All I can say is I stay on trails marked for horses and I don't usually decide to ride in the rain other than that there isn't much else I can do. 

I won't say that bikes should be confined to sidewalks and bike paths, and I don't expect some one to tell me I should keep my horse in a pasture or ring. I feel like everyone should be free to ride on the trails provided/open for them. I would hate to ruin my privilage to ride on trails and therefore you'll hear no complaining from me; I'd rather ride the trials and keep to my self doing my part whether it is paying for a pass and letting the park do the upkeep or volunteer to do the upkeep my self. 

I'm not sure what I've missed, but I am willing to answer any questions. My horses arn't wild beasts and they don't trample bike riders. My horses love the trail and all the interesting stuff we incounter.. if only I'd had a camera for all the animals we've come upon and all the friends we've met. And let me also share that I've done my share of walking on a trail with my horse following behind me, which I'm sure doesn't mean much to any of you.

well that's my 2 cents on the subject, I'm sure to many it won't matter but I know a few asked for 'our' point of view.


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## concretejungle (Jun 11, 2007)

I still like horses better than dog owners who can't leash their dog or at least store it in their handbag for their yearly hike.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

trvlingheart, thanks for signing up and posting. Your perspective is appreciated. This is sort of an "in-house" discussion, rest assured that most mtn bikers are willing to share the trails, with equal respect extended from both sides.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Good posts from the horse side, unfortunately I think most of this discussion is pretty futile, because the majority of the offending parties on both sides probably aren't the ones represented by our respective forums. 

In all likelihood any horseback rider with the passion to follow online horse forums, and join a mountain bike forum so that they can be heard, probably does have a very well trained animal, and does spend time on trail work, and is courteous to bikers they meet on the trail. It is the ********, hillbillies, and ditsy morons that are the problem.

The same goes for us on this mountain bike forum, no matter how hostile we may sound while hiding behind a computer screen, I am fairly certain we are among the most polite bikers out on the trail. The majority in this forum do know and abide by the rules of the trail.

The poop is still kind of an issue for me, you guys don't have to carry it out, but I bet it wouldn't be too difficult to carry (I mean make the horse carry) one of those folding camping shovels that can be used to fling the poop off where we don't have to run over it.
(this only goes for multi use trails if it is a horse only trail, by all means sh*t everywhere), I'm sure hikers would appreciate this as well

Horse poop is good fertilizer, but we don't want fertilizer in the middle of a trail, all that will do is make the trail overgrown, so why not send the fertilizer where it will do some good.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lyndonchen said:


> What right do they have to be endangering other people for their "fun"?


How do they endanger other users? Care to provide a link to a story how a bike got spooked and trampled a few kids?

Bike do not destroy trails and do not endanger other users and they are no more dangerous then hiking and much less dangerous then horse riding to participants.

That "argument" does not fly.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

trvlingheart said:


> I think for the most part it is a lack of education on all parties... even on the part of some equestrians riding horses that just arn't prepared to be on a multi-use trail.


Trail encounters are not a problem to bikers. Most are careful and courteous. I have never had a bad encounter with a horse on a bike. Only bad encounter I had was when some idiot nearly run me and my kids off a narrow trail when hiking in a park where cycling is not allowed.

The problem with equestrians is that they actively and aggressively lobby to exclude bikes from public land. They have successfully locked us out of wilderness and national parks and most state and county parks around. They achieve that in part by lying and misrepresenting the impact of cycling. The fact is horses are far more damaging to the trails, and far more annoying with the poop they leave behind, and far more dangerous to other trail users.

Just recently a local land management agency was reviewing a trail plan for an open space preserve. They propose to exclude bike even from a wide existing fireroad - but allow horses on fragile singletrack. This is lobbied by local well connected equestrians.

This is not acceptable. Every multi-use trail should allow cycling. Either hiking only, or cycling is allowed. Until that is achieved - including in national parks and in wilderness, equestrians should not expect positive feelings from a whole ot of mountain bikers - because it s to a large degree their fault. They are not willing to share.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

trvlingheart said:


> I'll venture to make a response as an equestrian.
> 
> I think there are far more people that ride that live on an average income than most think. In all my years of riding I can only claim to have ridden with the rich and not so famous a hand ful of times, maybe it was just where I was riding.... maybe it wasn't who knows.
> 
> ...


Indeed. Another sincere thanks for posting (I'm one of the posters who repeatedly requested comments from equestrians). You sound like a reasonable and responsible equestrian, and I don't think it's the case that most people on the forum would disagree with that in general.

BTW, I think complaints about "littering" weren't about throwing paper, cans, bottles, etc. (which I've seen plenty of campers, hikers, bikers, and other recreators do :madmax: ). By litter, people generally meant POOP, I think. Lots of people don't share the view that horse droppings are innocuous and harmless bits of grass and guck stuck together that shouldn't possibly bother anybody (especially the folks who travel closer to the ground than equestrians). Lots of stuff is "natural" that ecologically-minded folks wouldn't want tossed into the woods or trails on a regular basis. And, it seems like others find it a total mess to have to ride through, around, etc., not just because they're too lazy to bunny hop or swerve, but because it reminds them that equestrians seem to enjoy a privileged position as trail users. My curiosity is about whether there is something like a "position" that equestrian groups take on this issue, something that rational people can discuss in a fair and reasonable way (high hopes, huh?).

It sounds like you're a very courteous and friendly rider, and that you're responsible about training and controlling your horse. Nobody could fault that. I don't think most MTBers would have a problem encountering YOU on a trail in that domain.

I think you're right that your attitudes aren't going to do a lot to change the minds of MTBers who have had lots of negative experiences with equestrians (and especially the folks really irritated by the poop). It's commendable that you volunteer for trail work. I don't think that everyone here accuses ALL equestrians of ruining trails, or suggests that NONE of them take care of them, etc. To the extent that there's a reasonable discussion about trail use issues here, the perception is that ON AVERAGE, MTBers seem to be do the most to maintain trails, even though, ON AVERAGE, they do less damage to trails than do horses (and the same as hikers, for the same amount of use). Combine this with the issue of trail damage itself, and some MTBers get really angry. You expressed yourself the attitude that there's pretty much nothing to be done about hoof prints (which is the most minor version of trail damage from horses, of course). Along these lines, it seems absurd to many that bikes would be excluded from areas open to horses, as a matter of policy, given that many of those areas are not "horse riding sanctuaries" but areas preserved for "pristine" use (i.e. how is it that a heavy animal that tears up trails and leaves gobs and gobs of dung behind is somehow more compatible with pristine than a person on a bike, aside from the fact that horses are flesh and thus "natural", and bikes crazy space-age alloys?). To many people, including myself, this seems like a pretty important issue when it comes to policy decisions about trail access in a particular area. I don't pre-judge all of this, BTW -- some of the issues simply involve empirical questions. It's cool that you personally support access for bikes. The trouble is, advocacy groups and policy makers have to make decisions that effect whole groups of potential users.

In any case, thanks again for the input. Happy riding.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Pithecoid said:


> aside from the fact that horses are flesh and thus "natural", and bikes crazy space-age alloys?


That argument would made more sense if horses had no steel horseshoes, no saddles and riders had been riding naked, Lady Godiva style.

When I backpack, I weight more with my backpack then I weight with my bike, and I carry more space age plastics and chemicals.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Curmy said:


> That argument would made more sense if horses had no steel horseshoes, no saddles and riders had been riding naked, Lady Godiva style.
> 
> When I backpack, I weight more with my backpack then I weight with my bike, and I carry more space age plastics and chemicals.


You don't have to convince me, of course. I find it odd that in the modern world, any such sentiments would sway policy decisions of the kind we've been discussing. It seems to me that the those standards would exclude ultralight backpackers with little, though high-tech gear, but not exclude somebody with canvas, heavy equipment, and a sven saw for cutting down trees to make his nightly campfire.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

We are passionate and strong willed. That's why we ride bikes in places where people can barely walk. We are mountainbikers and we are here to stay...
:ihih: :band: :ihih: :band: :ihih:​


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

I was hesitant to join this forum solely to post on this thread but I can't resist, I really am intrigued with this issue. I am a horse owner and am at a barn near some trails. The trails are divided into four quadrants, only one of which equines are allowed on. I mainly do dressage (basically like ballet for horse and rider) so I only go on the trails for a break so my horse doesn't go arena-crazy. I haven't encountered any bikers as of yet but I have encountered many walkers and dog owners. For them I do half and half, sometimes I stop for them and sometimes they stop for me. It really bothers me when people have their dogs offleash but that's a different discussion :/ anyways I would like to stress the fact that it is dangerous to carry around a pitchfork while riding, dismount to move the poop, and then get back on. At my trails there are pitchforks set up at the head of the trails so riders can go back (after putting their horses back in their stalls) to clean up. Well this is my equine bike if you will.







A lot of people think horse owners are stuck up and snobby, but really we aren't. We just don't want our horses to get hurt. I take better care of him then I do myself. With a bike you can just buy another of the same model, but there is no "other model" of your horse. This is why riders seem uptight about bikes racing up because the horse could get hurt when it is frightened. Yes riders should get their horse accustomed to bikes if they are on trails where bikes are, but a fast moving object is a fast moving object so just slow down. The rider should make the call on whether they want you to go by (slowly) or stop and wait at the side.


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Ravel said:


> it is dangerous to carry around a pitchfork while riding, dismount to move the poop, and then get back on. At my trails there are pitchforks set up at the head of the trails so riders can go back (after putting their horses back in their stalls) to clean up..


Thanks for the quality post, Ravel. Since I only ride where trails are wet, foot & tire prints in the mud are a given, and last only a matter of hours. I only take issue with one point, and that is the sh*t issue.

I appreciate your local trails solution to the problem. At the same time, as I read through equine forums, I'm somewhat amused by equestrians proud resistance/refusal to clean up the massive piles of feces left on the trail. Who'd have thought horse people would be afraid of a liitle poop? Somehow, the rest of us hikers & bikers manage to stop and remove the huge heaps of horsesh*t from trails, and we don't ride around with pitchforks. Does it really require a pitchfork? They make small packable camping shovels if a rider is really afraid of getting their boots icky.

And I don't know why I haven't seen it brought up here, because it usually is early on, but the giant mountains of crap may be naturally occurring, in the regard that horses are natural beings, and as such, crap, but it is by no means anything you want laying there, especially on wet ground. It would be safer off-trail, but the difference as one equestrian proudly failed to grasp, between animals pooping in the woods, and hers and everyone elses horses all sh*tting on the same stretch of trail, is, traffic. People. Walking. Families. Kids, running around. ...on a path covered in feces. Don't see why people might not appreciate this?

I am generally a supporter of equestrian access. Where I'm from, the mountain bike groups tend to do the hard work, and the horsey people bring money to fund big projects. It's a kind of loose arrangement. But when someone decides to literally leave a trail of sh*t for everyone else to trudge through and then boast that they can't be bothered to pick up after their pet because getting off their high horse would inconvenience them, or as one poster put it, because of that old chestnut, he's "entitled to use the trail" well, that is where I run out of sympathy. He may be entitled to use the trail, but he is not entitled to do so in such a way that it creates a health hazard for everyone else.

That's my bone to pick.

I'll only add that, as someone who has (not unusual for enthusiasts) $50k in a few custom, handmade, one-off, irreplaceable bicycles, I understand & relate to your devotion to your riding buddy. ...but I could no more rush out to the store to get a replacement any more than you could.

Also, ...that is a fine looking horse.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Ravel said:


> Yes riders should get their horse accustomed to bikes if they are on trails where bikes are


It seems the solution for the equestrian lobby is to lie through their teeth to exclude bikers from our public land under utterly false pretenses of being "unnatural" and causing erosion, that is actually caused by cattle and horses in a far greater amount. In reality they just do not want to be inconvenienced by having to train and having to share.

Individual people, like yourself, are certainly reasonable, but the results of their action as a group are right in front of us to see - as in "no bikes" signs and piles of feces.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Ok Curmy we get it you have said that at least 3 times now in this thread, your attitude is not going to help the situation in the slightest, if anything it will just make the equestrians more galvanized against us.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> How do they endanger other users? Care to provide a link to a story how a bike got spooked and trampled a few kids?
> 
> Bike do not destroy trails and do not endanger other users and they are no more dangerous then hiking and much less dangerous then horse riding to participants.
> 
> That "argument" does not fly.


You totally miss the point. You claim that from a mtn biker's perspective, horses are dangerous. A hiker could use your exact argument and say that bikers are dangerous. Not from spooking obviously, but from being careless and running people over. Did you not read the rest of the post you quoted???

If you were to conduct a poll of 100 hikers and ask, which user group is more dangerous, bikers or horses, I bet 80 or 90 would point to bikers. So does this mean we should restrict bikes, based on the perspective of hikers? Because you want to restrict horses, based on the perspective of bikers. It's hypocrisy.

Horses do destroy trails, I'll give you that. But the same comparison to hiking stands. We as bikers hurt trails too, compared to hikers. Is it fair that hikers indict us for trail damage?


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> Ok Curmy we get it you have said that at least 3 times now in this thread, your attitude is not going to help the situation in the slightest, if anything it will just make the equestrians more galvanized against us.


I agree with Flystagg....Curmy, your point has been made clear and the horse riders posting are not really arguing against you, you don't need to answer to every one of their posts. Even though it is a "hot topic", let's try to keep it constructive.


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## noodlea (Aug 15, 2009)

As with anything that can go fast be it horse, car or bike what ever if you dont use it responsibly then there are going to be problems. 

Where i live there are a lot of trails that are surrounded by farm land most of which are unusable by bikes or hikers with young children due to the large amount of erosion. In the winter the trails literally become a swamp

My biggest beef with horse riders is the twat owners who seem to think that is their right to destroy the trails, leave huge steaming piles of **** everywhere and demand that people get out of the way instantly. fine the turd is not toxic but **** is **** no matter what form. If i took my dog for a walk there and it shat everywhere i would be fined £100 and yet there is no penalty for leaving steaming a mound of shite. 

I will always yield to a horse, i always trail ride with bright cloths so that i can be seen and i will always show respect for the animal that i am passing by keeping quiet and giving as much distance as possible. But it is very hard to show respect for horse riders when they show absolutely no respect for other trail users or even the trail its self.

Edit: i am sorry for labeling all horse riders as twats, but i can only go from my experience and the ones i have met have been well... twats

I also forgot to mention i always ride while free leading my Alsatian she is accustomed to horses after years of me telling her to sit when i see one, she sits when she sees one with out me mentioning anything. I have 2 Alsatians and i only free lead one because she is well trained and has come with me for rides for years now. My dog has become accustomed to horses after years of training and routine so why cant horses do the same for riders? 

Oh and horse riders take note, when my dog lays a turd burger in the middle of the trail, i pick it up and either bin it or find a bush for it to live under.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Originally Posted by Ravel


> The rider should make the call on whether they want you to go by (slowly) or stop and wait at the side.


True. It is a cooperation issue. I don't mind to be around horses because I grew up with horses. And some times horses behave better than some hikers on the trail. Piles of poop and massive trail erosion are the down side of horses. The pictures above are scary...


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## LuMach (Jun 3, 2008)

Tuff Gong said:


> I have no problem stopping and talking to you folks (I always do) but would you please pick up the huge piles you leave in the middle of the trail. Thanks


What he said.

Around here we have issues with the Horsey crowd actually working to get MTBers banned from a local public park, pretty ironic when they're the one's who show the least respect for the enviornment by damaging the trails more than anyone (sandy soil+horseshoes+1000lbs. animal = serious trail destruction) and disrespecting everyone by leaving huge piles of dung behind for others to deal with.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

I think there is a certain amount of jealousy at being excluded from vast swaths of public for many bikers. Public lands where horses are allowed. In my personal experience I have never had a problem, but the way things often seemed arranged to me was: Bikes excluded from horse trails. Horses allowed on almost all trails. Horse riders choose not to ride on the "bike" trails though and all works out.

Horse poop isn't really a health hazard so get off your high horse ... (errr high bike?) about it being one. I suppose it might be a health hazard if you slip you tires out and crash b/c of it.


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## MtnSpectre (Nov 21, 2004)

Throwing my .02 in to the pot of gold here.

When I first looked at the beginning post it looked like it was from an arrogant horse rider trying to be politcally correct in a MTBR forum. I actually had to read it again a day later to soften my view on that. 

Having said that, I personally don't have an issue sharing the trail with anyone except fatigue. I have encountered equestrians numerous times in NC, Colorado and Georgia. I have never come away with a negative feeling. Small exchange of banter after I get off my bike to allow them to pass (I've seen someone get kicked, not a fan) and we are on our ways. (I'm friendly like that.) One of the equestrians stated.....you can go buy another bike....hmmmmm yeah some people can but most have put a lot of cash into their ride and it would be a loss of great proportions. I do understand your attachment to your horse also. Horse, bike.....those are our babies. 

I will jump on the bandwagon about the delicious apples left behind along with the dog poop. I have more of an issue with the dog poop though because I have yet to get off my bike and have horse crap on my leg or shoes. Man I hate splatter! Equestrians, Hikers with dogs and Riders with dogs.......do something with the poop!! 

Not until this post have I really thought about the damage we bikers do to the trails when they are ridden wet. (I lie). I try and avoid riding in wet conditions although to be honest that was my first ride and it hooked me. Mud and blood. Here in MO I ride numerous trails that allow horses and have lately changed my mind about riding those trails. I do hate the amount of damage left behind from the horses. Especially on an uphill run, makes it all but impossible to ride up and the ride less enjoyable. Both do some damage to the trails. I guess there should be some education for all sides. So I guess that was about .25.....keep the change.


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## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Ravel said:


> anyways I would like to stress the fact that it is dangerous to carry around a pitchfork while riding, dismount to move the poop, and then get back on. At my trails there are pitchforks set up at the head of the trails so riders can go back (after putting their horses back in their stalls) to clean up.


Welcome to MTBR.com and you have a lovely looking animal there Ravel!

I have to ask though, why isn't a horse diaper or bag a good solution? I don't think anyone is asking you to carry a pitch fork. 

[Edit] I should also add that all my horse & rider encounters here (Colorado) have been OK and the vast majority have been very pleasant.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

sxotty said:


> I think there is a certain amount of jealousy at being excluded from vast swaths of public for many bikers. Public lands where horses are allowed. In my personal experience I have never had a problem, but the way things often seemed arranged to me was: Bikes excluded from horse trails. Horses allowed on almost all trails. Horse riders choose not to ride on the "bike" trails though and all works out.
> 
> Horse poop isn't really a health hazard so get off your high horse ... (errr high bike?) about it being one. I suppose it might be a health hazard if you slip you tires out and crash b/c of it.


Horse poop isn't a health hazard so just ignore it? Bikers problems with horses are a result of jealousy? This is such a pathetic attitude to have and one that is all to common among equestrians.

You know, they have a nickname for those Tony Lama boots you wannabe cowboys wear; SHI* KICKERS. Now, think for just a moment and maybe you can see what the solution is to horses crapping on trails. That's right, you dismount and kick the pile of crap off the trail. That way you leave no trace, other than all the rocks you've knocked loose and onto the trail and all of the water diverting structures meant to prevent erosion that your horse has trampled and beaten down, and all the thousands and thousands of flies that breed and multiply as a result of those fresh piles of horse manure, and all of the posthole damage that your animal has created because you decided you had to go out riding after a rain storm.

Mountain bikers can usually ride around horse manure. Some don't mind riding over it. Some don't mind stopping their ride and kicking the manure off the trail, as a courtesy to other trail users. I went on a 3.5 hour ride two days ago that ended up taking 5 hours because I spent a lot of time stopping to do some trail repairs behind a single horse that had done significant damage to the trail. You people just don't get it. You are oblivious to the damages you are doing to our trail systems. Those damages have a price tag. Land Managers have to hire crews to do repairs to the trails. If they don't have the money to hire crews, those trails fall into disrepair and are sometimes abandoned, due to neglect. You might try to find a photo to post of equestrians out volunteering on a horse trail but it doesn't impress most of us who have spent over a decade volunteering to build and maintain multi-use trails. We know the turnout rate of equestrians is quite low, almost zero over the 13 years I've been doing trail work.

Yes, I've ridden horses and mules in my life. I grew up on a farm where we rode at an early age. My brother-in-law just retired after 20 years of running the horse patrol for the Omaha Police Division. I chose to ride a bike and not a horse because I want the workout, the challenge of a mountain bike. Horse riders, like most everyone else in this country, are looking more and more unfit. I see these giant fat pigs sitting atop their horses and I know they aren't about to step off of them to kick their horses manure off the trail. They aren't going to spend the time to properly train their animals to handle all possible encounters out on the woods. The fat, lazy equestrians are no different than fat, lazy ATV'ers. They want to get into the great outdoors with a bare minimum of physical exertion. They take no personal responsibility for the actions of their horse and excuse any and all behavior by saying something stupid like; horse poop is completely natural or those holes in the trail will eventually fill back in or I don't mind all the mud on the trail and neither does my horse, in fact he likes the feel of mud and I like sitting up here where I don't get muddy. One trip to the western wear store and you've got your wrangler jeans and that really big belt buckle and your new cowboy hat and those nice leather cowboy boots and now you're ready to experience the great outdoors just like in the old days. But these are not the old days. We are a bit more enlightened. We know that if we are not good stewards of our trails, they will fall apart. That is why we work so hard doing volunteer work between rides. That is why bike organizations put together volunteer schedules for the summer months. That is why the Forest Service buys those expensive trail tools for their crews and for volunteers to use. Trails cost a lot of money to build and have to be maintained. They don't "naturally" hold up to the weather and to abuse from horses. Those trails won't get repaired by equestrians who have no idea that they are even causing trail damage. They don't acknowledge that they are causing trail damage, so they feel they have no obligation to do any trail repairs. They can't even understand a simple concept of kicking their horses poop off a trail to show some basic courtesy to other trail users.

I will not extend an olive branch to a group that is that clueless. It is throwing pearls before swine. I will double my efforts doing trail repair. I have already organized 60 volunteers (not one horse rider) who spent about three hours doing reroutes and repairs to a section of trail notorious for having lots of horse traffic. I would have preferred that horse riders fix their own trails but I am realistic and know it won't happen. The mountain bike community has always found a way to overcome. They are determined. They continually impress me with their energy and willingness to be the solution to the problems. They are not going to fall for political rhetoric. They know better. They are out there on the trail too often to believe the lies. They see who is doing the damage and who is repairing that damage. I will continue to hold equestrians accountable. I believe we should expect much more from them and let them know it.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

:lol:

I don't ride a horse prodigal. I just think when people lie it undermines their argument. Horse crap isn't really a health hazard. Pretending things to help bolster an argument undermines the argument IMO. And yes I conduct trail maintenance, but that doesn't give a person carte blanche to act rude.


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## Timon (May 11, 2008)

i'm wondering, for the horse riders that ride with their dogs....do they get off their horse and clean up the dog poop when their dog goes #2 on the trail?


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## tone capone (Jun 6, 2008)

> I went on a 3.5 hour ride two days ago that ended up taking 5 hours because I spent a lot of time stopping to do some trail repairs behind a single horse that had done significant damage to the trail


 Exactly. Many of my rides end up this way. I have to do this all the time, especially on fragile sidehills. I don't really care about horse ****, and I don't want to see horses kicked off the trail, but this is a fact.

Sorry to break it to ya, but when you ride your horse on an already fragile sidehill, especially when it's wet, it creates many, many man hours of work to get that trail into safe, passable condition again for other horses and bikers. I see things where I ride get ABSOLUTELY TRASHED by one or two horses every season. Don't even get me started about what happens when you ride when it's wet. The horse crowd never seems to restrain itself under those conditions unfortunately. This is why mountain bikers are frustrated. They know their activities don't cause rescource damage, and see it as a huge hypocracy when they are targeted unfairly with the accusation of such rescource damage when giant animals can cause incredible amounts of destruction to a trail with just one passing. It is obvious to us after riding the same trail dozens of times in a season and then seeing what a pair of people on horseback can do in one passing.

Again, I really don't care all that much about kicking anyone off the trail, but I'd say that all the volunteer trail work around here done by equestrian groups is the bare minimum compared to the damage they do to the trail with ONE PASSING. Their activities are nowhere near sustainable otherwise in my experience.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

As it's been said before, it's a matter of respect and cooperation from both parties.

My horse encounters have been on multi-use trails or roads (dirt roads, that is) where usually the "foreigner" is the biker as the horseman is commonly a local or landowner.

And if anything, I reduce my speed, make myself to be perceived in control of my bike, say hi and either give way or take it, depending on who gives the way. I do that with other users like hikers and other bikers too.

I haven't been around of spooky horses, but it is my impression that horses in Mexico are rather tame and not easy to spook. Most are even used to motorcycles and cars. But that may be my impression and be very wrong. Though, I think the way the horse is trained and the education shown by both riders is key.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html

Hosted by AmericanTrails.org

Comparing relative impacts of various trail user groups

A summary of research and studies on factors that affect trails management strategy and determining uses for each trail.

By Woody Keen
www.traildynamics.com
I am a professional trail builder based in NC and as such I see the relative impacts of all user groups on a very regular basis. I recently researched and made comments on this issue for a local state forest recreational plan and you may use these comments and review of the research in your efforts there. You will find my comments below comparing the relative impacts of horses vs. bikes, I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions for you.
eroded steep trail
Poor design, such as this steep fall-line trail, causes erosion more than any particular use (Miwok Trail in Marin County, CA)

Comparing relative impacts of various trail user groups: The EA document introduces the concept that different user groups have varying levels of physical impacts on trails noting that hiking and biking have similar impacts while horse use has significantly higher impacts. Unfortunately the document does not really site any specific research or studies in forming this conclusion and some reviewers of the EA may read in an opinion based on prejudice instead of reaction to hard science. As a professional trail designer/builder, perhaps I have researched this (as it is important to my job) more than the author of the EA and I can share the research I have re-viewed.

The statements/claims in the EA are certainly well founded and number of different studies back up the generalizations made.

A 2001 study performed by botanist Richard Reader of the University of Guelph (Canada) noted that "We've found that hikers have the same effect as bikers do, regardless of the number of trips along the path. In reality, both are equally damaging to the environment, but there is increased trail wear because twice the number of people are now using the trails." (Impacts of Experimentally Applied Mountain Biking and Hiking on Vegetation and Soil of a Deciduous Forest - Eden Thurston and Richard Reader).

A trail impact study from the Aldo Leopold Wilderness Research Institute comparing hiking impacts to horses and llamas noted: "Horse traffic resulted in statistically significant higher sediment yields (the primary indicator of trail deterioration) than either hiker or llama traffic. The low level (250 passes) horse treatment caused more impact than the high level (1000 passes) llama treatments, suggesting that horses can cause at least four times as much impact to trails under the conditions simulated in this experiment. In addition, under dry trail conditions horse traffic caused significant reductions in soil bulk density (a measure of how compacted the soil is) compared to llama and hiker traffic. Horse traffic also caused significant increases in soil roughness compared with the other 2 users. This suggests that the greater impacts of horses on trails is a result of soil loosening of trail surfaces that are otherwise compacted, thereby increasing the detachability of soil particles and increasing sediment yield and erosion." (Llamas, Horses, and Hikers: Do They Cause Different Amounts of Impact? - Thomas Deluca (University of Montana) and David Cole (USFS - Wilderness Research Institute) 1998 study)

Don Weir also addresses the differences in compaction of soils by some users and displacement of soils by others in his book A Guide to the Impacts of Non-Motorized Trail Use (Don Weir and Associates- Edmonton Alberta Canada). Weir noted: "Repeated passes by bicycles (and most other users) tend to compact the soils of a trail tread. Vertical compaction tends to push particles closer together, thereby increasing shear strength. An increase in shear strength of the soil will have greater ability to resist erosive forces."

Weir also notes that: "Research to date has indicated that the degree of impacts from mountain bikes, relative to those of walkers who have their own unique forms of impacts, appear to be similar."

The Weir book is a wonderful resource and a great review of the literature and research available on the subject of trail impacts. It cites from many studies from around the word on the subject matter (many of these studies I have complete copies of the research papers). A few of these notable sources include:

Cessford (1995) asserts that: "Mountain bikers will exert a downward force through their tyres (translated to tires - Cessford is from New Zealand)which comprises the wheel load divided by the contact area, is likely to be less than that of heavier motorized vehicles, horses, and heavily laden hikers." (Off Road Impacts of Mountain Bikes: A Review and Discussion, Science and Research - G.R. Cessford, Department of Conservation Wellington New Zealand).
Weaver and Dale (1978) found that: "During down slope travel, downhill stepping (by foot and horse) was more erosive than downhill motor biking." It should be noted that the modern mountain bike did not exist at the time of this study, but later studies show that mountain bikes have far less impacts (equal to hiking) as compared with motor bikes. (Trampling Effects of Hikers, Motorcycles, and Horses in Meadows and Forests) - T. Weaver and D. Dale - Journal of Applied Ecology 1978)

In the Executive Summary of Weir's book, he notes that: "Common belief holds that wheeled vehicles cause new trails to form more readily than the actions of feet or hooves, thus justifying the allowance of off trail travel by hikers and equestrians. Yet, erosion studies cited above, practically Weaver and Dale (1978, Quinn et al (1981), Soanne et al (1981) and Cole (1987) , suggest that in many places, "feet and hooves will trample more than bicycle tires. The instantaneous sheer forces exerted on a plant by a foot or hoof will have much more of a tearing effect than the rolling over and crushing force of a bicycle wheel."

Don Weir also explores the effects/impacts of what he refers to as biological loading" in his book. He notes: "The amount of excreta produced by user groups is a function of user type and the residence time the user is in the area. We can hypothesize that equestrians produce the most amount by mass; then hikers, who have a longer residence time; and finally the mountain bikers who have the shortest residence time and therefore are less likely to need to void".

Perhaps the most widely accepted research on trail impacts of different users is the Seney/Wilson Study as it compared all the user groups together in one study (hikers, motorcycles, mountain bikes, and horses). Some of the findings from the Seney/Wilson Study include:

"The sediment yields reported in part B of Table 4 indicates that horse plots produced significantly more sediment yield than the bicycle, control, or hiker plots." "Hiker and bicycle plots were not significantly different from each other or the control plots." " Indeed, hikers produced the second largest increase in sediment yield following the horse treatments, and overall the horse and hiker plots suggest that hooves and feet make more sediment available for removal than wheels on pre-wetted soils. The results in Part D of Table 4 indicate horse traffic produced significantly more sediment than other users on dry plots as well". (Erosional Impact of Hikers, Horses, Motorcycles, and Off Road Bicycles on Mountain Trails in Montana- John Wilson and Joseph Seney - Mountain Research and Development 1994)

There are numerous other research reports that compare relative impacts of different user types on soils, vegetation, and trail tread surfaces. Most of the readers of my comments are likely to be bored by now as few are as interested in this subject matter as I am. I will therefore to cease to cite from these various reports and move on. Suffice it to say however that Dr. Gary Blank was well founded in his assertion that horses do indeed have a greater impact on trails than do hikers or mountain bikes.

Observations in the field by a trained eye will report similar results to the hard science and note that horse damage to trails is easier to record. This also follows common sense logic; horses will have greater impacts due to a much higher combined weight (horse with rider) concentrated into a smaller surface area (four hooves of which not all four can be on the ground as the horse moves forward, as compared to a bicycle tire which has a large contact surface area), and horse are the only trail user with metal (most trail horses are shoed) to trail tread contact (tires of mountain bikes and shoes on hikers are rubber).

Despite numerous reports (coming from science and research), observations and common sense that horses do indeed have much higher impacts than the other two user groups (hikers and mtn bikes), I am in no way suggesting that horses be removed from the DuPont State Forest trail system. To the contrary, I see DSF as being a wonderful and important resource for equestrian trail users. We do however need to recognize the greater impacts and make good decisions about which trails are appropriate for horse use and which ones are not. Trails identified as not suitable for horses (so as to protect the trail resources) always have the option of re-location to better alignments for sustainability and these options should be exercised in DSF when at all possible.

There are, however, a number of limiting factors on how quickly these changes can be made: availability of funding resources for professional trail construction, volunteer efforts on behalf of the equestrian community, cooperation with other users on volunteer projects to improve trail conditions for all users to name a few. Perhaps a long-term goal for the trail system at DSF could be to maximize the trail mileage for each user group (to provide for abundant recreational opportunities and have a very positive effect on the local economy) while minimizing impacts to the natural resources through good management decisions and sustainable trail development practices.

I believe that in addition to relative impacts, there are a number of factors that should be taken into consideration in the trails management strategy and determining trail uses for each trail in DSF. Certainly the relative impacts of user types needs to be considered and impacts monitored to make resource protection decisions. Other factors include:

1. Need and demand for trail resources. The EA pointed out that the Southern Appalachian Assessment of 1996 concluded that recreational opportunities in natural appearing and remote settings were abundant with exceptions for mountain biking and horseback riding (and other uses not allowed in DSF). This report seems to indicate that hiking opportunities were ample and not limited in any way. Taking this into consideration, perhaps an emphasis needs to be placed on developing sustainable recreational opportunities for those trail activities being generally under served (horseback riding and mountain biking).

2. Contributions of the various user groups giving back to the trail system (sweat equity). Equestrians and mountain bikers have led the charge of volunteer projects much more so than hikers. In fact, hiking groups are not working in the forest as a user group except working with and under the supervision of mountain bike leaders. The typical public FODF workday profile is: Blue Ridge Bike Club members providing the leadership and knowledge as well as club owned tools, 75- 90% workers from the mountain bike community and a small fraction coming from the hiking community. The equestrian community holds its own separate workdays with the leadership coming from the Pisgah Trailblazers and this group has been fairly consistent in holding work weekends from the forest inception to present.

The focus of projects by different groups has been quite different. The hiking community has no projects located in DSF they can call their own, and have only contributed some (but limited help) to the mountain bike community based projects. Projects performed under the leadership of the mountain bike community have focused on the following trail tread improvements: providing for better drainage for trails to control water issues (adding grade dips and knicks to poorly designed trails, all over the forest on many trails), armoring steep sections of trail to protect the native soils from erosion (Longside Trail, Cedar Rock Trail, Burnt Mountain, bottom of Jim Branch Trail), designing and building sustainable new trails and re-locations for poorly designed trails (Galax Trail, Reasonover Creek trail re-route during the IMBA Epic, Hickory Mountain Trail re-route at the old rifle range, the new addition to the Airstrip Trail, Pine Tree Extension from Staton Road to Sheep Mountain, the Switchback Trail), construction of needed trail structures (switchbacks like those found on the Galax trail) and providing for educational opportunities for all trail users though public trail schools.

Imaging what DuPont's trail system would look like without these significant contributions and improvements from the mountain bike community is daunting and needless to say there would have been a much larger impact on the resources (soil loss due to erosion) without these projects. The equestrian projects in the forest seem to focus on quite different projects: corridor clearing (brushing back of trails), work around the barn area (weed eating and cutting grass, fence work on the paddocks, fireplace ring and wood storage), signing and marking trails in the earlier stages of development, providing horse tie outs at key attractions to protect the trees, and some (but limited) drainage work on bad mud hole areas such as Turkey Knob trail. No doubt these have been important contributions to the forest and projects that forest staff would have likely not been able to accomplish without the help. However, due to the cited greater impacts to trail tread surface caused by horse use there should be a suggested shift and more energy could be directed at mitigating impacts by contributing more to trail tread related projects (perhaps working with the mountain bike community who are educated and experienced in this type of work).

3. Numbers of users within the various user groups and predicted future use patterns as compared with needed trail mileage for average length of stay. A number of sources have indicated that DSF averages 3000-5000 visitors per week. The EA document (and Trails Master Plan) breaks down the visitation into the most common forms of recreation: hiking (57%), mountain biking (25%), horseback riding (7%) and trail running (5%). National statistics find that there are the following numbers of trail users in America: 73.3 million hikers, 43.1 million single track mountain bikers, and 4.3 million horse back riders (sources: Outdoor Industry Association 2003 Participation Study and the American Horseman's Council).

All of these could certainly be broken down into sub categories, but perhaps the most important split would be looking at causal walkers (the typical waterfall tourist) differently from serious hikers. Hikers and walkers need the least amount of trail to make an outing experience due to the slower pace of travel and average time spent in the forest. Trail runners can range from those just catching a one-hour workout traveling an average of 4-6 miles to long distance backcountry runners who travel distances and speeds more similar to mountain bikers. The Trails Master Plan Survey found that mountain bikers and equestrians had the longest average stay as compared with other users and also traveled more trail distance per visit. All of this information can be used in the planning process and trails management to make sure each user group has ample trail mileage to accommodate desired experiences.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Steve71 said:


> Welcome to MTBR.com and you have a lovely looking animal there Ravel!
> 
> I have to ask though, why isn't a horse diaper or bag a good solution? I don't think anyone is asking you to carry a pitch fork.
> 
> [Edit] I should also add that all my horse & rider encounters here (Colorado) have been OK and the vast majority have been very pleasant.


I believe the 'poop bags' you are referring to are the ones on carriage horses on the city. For those you must have, well, a carriage. As far as I know there are no poop bags invented for horses being ridden. I think part of the reason riders don't really take care of the poop issue is because we clean stalls twice a day, so we aren't really bothered by it. We riders need to have our stall cleaning dedication work for our trail cleaning dedication.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

A possible solution???


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## P_McP (Jul 21, 2009)

Remember when the horsey folks teamed up with the MTBR's to try and get rid of dirtbikes?! Ooops.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Ravel said:


> I believe the 'poop bags' you are referring to are the ones on carriage horses on the city. For those you must have, well, a carriage. As far as I know there are no poop bags invented for horses being ridden. I think part of the reason riders don't really take care of the poop issue is because we clean stalls twice a day, so we aren't really bothered by it. We riders need to have our stall cleaning dedication work for our trail cleaning dedication.


One couldn't afix a bag with a crupper?

I work locally with the Backcountry Horsemen, yes, we do trail projects together, and I have an appreciation for the deadfall clearing and other trailwork that they do in the backcountry.

I want to step in the "poo" issue. While a few horse apples here and there I can live with or ride around as the case may be, I find, in my experience that horsemen can be pretty oblivious to the disgust that some people feel to misplaced piles of poo. Two examples come to mind - are these just renegade trail users?

One, in the backcountry in Idaho. There's a beautiful lake that is a trail destination for all users: horses, hikers, bikers. (Loon Lake ) It is complete with a lovely sandy beach that is a lovely lunch spot, place to kick back, have a swim or enjoy the view. On my last ride there, a group of horsemen were just leaving, and one of the critters left a huge steaming pile, right in the middle of this lovely beach that is obviously being used by many visitors. We had planned a swim and lunch, and now we have to step around it? The horsemen came back, and I bluntly asked them if they could clean it up so everyone else could enjoy the beach, and was basically laughed at. One rider DID come back to sheepishly clean it up, which was greatly appreciated. Lets face it folks, would you want to have lunch at a beach with a steaming pile of ANY kind of poo right in the middle?

Secondly, there is a forest campground that we visit, and people routinely shovel out their trailers right in the middle of the campsites. I'm not talking a stray pile of apples here, I'm talking a trailer load of crap. We've learned through experience to bring clean up tools with us so we can clear off the truck loads of manure before we set up tents.

Are these truly examples of the "it's just horse poo" mentality? It seems awfully inconsiderate to me.

Horse crap may seem pretty innocuous to horse users, but it can be full of noxious/invasive weed seeds, and it's certainly a fly attractant in large quantities.


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## trvlingheart (Aug 16, 2009)

OK, a few things I wanted to answer. Not all horses are shod. For one my horses arn't, meaning my horses don't have shoes on their feet. Its a common misconception that all horses have metal shoes on their feet. And a 'barefooted' horse does have less of an impact on the environment. Besides those with shoes shouldn't be ridden in deep or thick mud anyways becuase there is a risk of the shoe being pulled off by suction. 

I don't wear 'sh!t kickers' , or cowboy boots. I wear tennis shoes or hiking boots when I trail ride. I also ride in an english saddle, so I must not be the norm on the trial according to most of the descriptions here. I also don't have a problem getting on and off my horse during a ride. Like I said in my previous post there are times on trails when I do get off and lead my horse through a trail. 

Poop on the trail, I've never heard a complaint about it from a park entitiy or a biker or hiker in person. I've never seen it posted that horse manure had to be removed from the trail. If it were posted or I was asked to clean up the manure off the trail I would have done so with no problems. And I'll think more about it in the future when we ride. Infact this is the first time I've heard any complaints about it, and it does make sense what some are saying about their complaints. But I don't think I'm the only one out there who hasn't heard a complaint from a park or person while out on a trail. Maybe if it is a big concern why don't you ask the park to consider putting it in their rules for equestrians to remove large piles of manure from the trial? That way more people are informed of the concren. After all at a stables we work with it day in and out, moving it, seeing it, walking thru/around it, We just really stop thinking that others might be concerned about it, because afterall it is a fact of life when you live around horses. As for me I'll keep it in mind that if my horse stops to drop a pile of manure then I'll get off and kick it aside. But my horses are like nijas most of the time and if I'm last in line on a trail ride I won't feel her pooping while walking because she doesn't make a sound, or move differntly. I main reason a horse can't wear a 'diaper bag' is because the equipment isn't there to hook the bag too. Most saddles don't come equiped with the attachment points for a bag to collect manure. Most manure bags are attached to harnesses and carts, which are worn differently than saddles. 

Blinders on a horse is a very silly suggestion. Blinders while used in some sports, limits the view of the horse and can cause much more danger and harm than do good. With blinders on, horses typically can't see what is behind them and sometimes even can't see what is next to them. While this is good for racing because it keeps the horse focused on what is in front of them, and keeps them in the mind of the race. It is not good for a trail ride, because in the chance that something does come at them they can't see it and therefore wouldn't be able to react to move out of the way or defend it's self. Not to mention on trail rides there are curves and trees and bushes and things you must navigate around which a horse wouldn't be able to do if they could only see what is in front of them. Also Horses have a major blind spot directly infront of them. So while blinders suggest the idea that horses can only see what is in front of them, is a false discription since they are physically incapeable of see directly infront of their nose between their eyes. Blinders severly cut the vision feild of a horse. Blinders would highten the nerves and would cause more dangerous situations. There is a reason why blinders are only used on a track or by carting/driving horses. Besides that blinders constantly worn by horses could cause major eye problems, due to lack of proper drainage and airflow. 

As for the dog thing, my dogs don't go out on trail with me while I ride so I can't comment on that. 

Also HTR4EVR, I like your picture of the 'horse bike' from a Burningman event (I'm almost positive thats where it was taken by the back ground), do you know what year that was taken? Great idea! lol


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## classiccanadianblizzard (Apr 26, 2006)

Well... I say ... Lets all band TOGETHER and get rid of ALL the animals from the woods!
Have any of you seen the damage a moose or smaller deer do to the woods? and don't even get me going about bears! 
Animals do all sorts of nasty things... they make trails ( cause they are too lazy to walk over the rough spots) They rub bark off of trees to mark their area and to get rid of the itchy velvet from antlers. Can you believe that they even POO in the woods.... I mean really, why cant they clean up after themselves like dogs and their humans? is it really that hard to do? Come on!!! Who's with me?? We can take this to the highest courts and government... we can hold rallies and protests!! I think our slogan could be something like " Nature... who needs it?" or maybe " Animals... what was god thinking?" But hey... I am open to ANY and ALL suggestions on this... as long as " I " agree with it.... cause if I don't... then you just made my "list"


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

formica said:


> One couldn't afix a bag with a crupper?
> 
> I work locally with the Backcountry Horsemen, yes, we do trail projects together, and I have an appreciation for the deadfall clearing and other trailwork that they do in the backcountry.
> 
> ...


I agree....the occasional pile is not a huge deal but annoying when wet and steamy....I ride around it when possible. However, leaving a pile right in the middle of a nice beach spot and shoveling out right in camp??? :nono:


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Rivet said:


> http://www.americantrails.org/resources/ManageMaintain/WKeenImpacts.html
> 
> Hosted by AmericanTrails.org
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the contribution, Rivet. While I find the anecdotes interesting, it's actual facts like this that I find most useful. We've all had good and bad experiences with members of other groups, and we all tend to remember more the bad one's (I for instance remember very well the anger and hostility of some hikers even when I've been courteous, deferential, and helpful as a cyclist greeting and getting out of their way, and I also remember very well experiences as a hiker with MTBers who were being total jackasses on shared trails -- but I know those can't be treated as anything more than isolated incidents that reflect a sampling of my experiences). It's nice to have at least some actual facts to add to the mix of anecdotes and general attitudes.

One reasonable safety considerations have been worked out, my issue has to do with folks contributing in a way that minimizes their costs of trail use, and/or compensates for them. The more I read here, the more and more surprised I am that equestrians don't, in general, express deference, guilt, or visible motivation to be super-stewards of the land. I'd feel like a total jerk if I did more trail damage than other users, left "litter" of a kind that nobody else could get away with, was part of a user-group that contributes less to general trail maintenance, AND have everybody bowing down to me on the trail to me (even if due to very reasonable concerns about safety for horses, riders, and other trail users).

When I think about this, reading comments from equestrians saying, essentially, Yeah there's really nothing to do about the poop -- it's too inconvenient to pick up, it's unsafe to carry the equipment to do so, ...; and, Yeah, there's really nothing to do about the "hoof prints" (as though that's really the issue), I personally can't help but find those reasons to exclude horses from public trails. I mean, if there's nothing to be done about it, then, well... On the other hand, if I was generally hearing something like -- "You know, wow, I hadn't really thought about how crappy it must be for other people to have to deal with the dung that we hover 6 feet over, and I hadn't really thought about how badly horses tear up trails compared to other users, and how horse groups seem so much less active in doing general trail work. Wow, I can see why some people are so mad given that my mode of trail use is supposed to be treated with complete deference. Maybe equestrian groups should be more active to ameliorate these things rather than appearing to passively piss in the pond. I mean, aside from it seeming totally unfair, people being really angry might mean my trail access could diminish in the future." -- if I were hearing something like that I'd be enthusiastically endorsing team work to keep trails open for as many kinds of users as possible and/or reasonable for some area. Somehow, that seems like something along the lines of what I'd expect to be hearing, but I'm a naive idiot about this (well, not really -- I have pretty strong intuitions about what's really at work here).


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lyndonchen said:


> You totally miss the point. You claim that from a mtn biker's perspective, horses are dangerous. A hiker could use your exact argument and say that bikers are dangerous. Not from spooking obviously, but from being careless and running people over. Did you not read the rest of the post you quoted???


Sure I did. Did you read my post? I have said that this argument would not apply, because it is not true. Bikes do not run people over - it just does not happen as far as I know. Any evidence otherwise?


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

trvlingheart said:


> OK, a few things I wanted to answer. Not all horses are shod. For one my horses arn't, meaning my horses don't have shoes on their feet. Its a common misconception that all horses have metal shoes on their feet. And a 'barefooted' horse does have less of an impact on the environment. Besides those with shoes shouldn't be ridden in deep or thick mud anyways becuase there is a risk of the shoe being pulled off by suction.
> 
> I don't wear 'sh!t kickers' , or cowboy boots. I wear tennis shoes or hiking boots when I trail ride. I also ride in an english saddle, so I must not be the norm on the trial according to most of the descriptions here. I also don't have a problem getting on and off my horse during a ride. Like I said in my previous post there are times on trails when I do get off and lead my horse through a trail.
> 
> ...


everything stated is all the more reason to keep horses off the trails

and you have got to be kidding me with the "horse poop doesnt bother me cause i'm around it all the time, I had no idea anyone else might have a problem with it"

and just so you know what it looks like here is a pic of one


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Flystagg said:


> Ok Curmy we get it you have said that at least 3 times now in this thread, your attitude is not going to help the situation in the slightest, if anything it will just make the equestrians more galvanized against us.


Bending over and being nice to people who are had actively and aggressively worked against cycling access for many years is clearly not doing us any favors. It just does not. Single track mountain bikers outnumber horse riders by 10 to 1 ratio nationally (quotes above in the thread).

Looking at some recent trail plans around here - same old, same old. "No bikes" and plenty of horses only multi-use trails. I do not see how more galvanized they can be. Sorry guys, but that does infuriate me, and I do not feel apologetic for that. I pay my taxes for that land, I do want to be able to use it.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> Well... I say ... Lets all band TOGETHER and get rid of ALL the animals from the woods!
> Have any of you seen the damage a moose or smaller deer do to the woods? and don't even get me going about bears!
> Animals do all sorts of nasty things... they make trails ( cause they are too lazy to walk over the rough spots) They rub bark off of trees to mark their area and to get rid of the itchy velvet from antlers. Can you believe that they even POO in the woods.... I mean really, why cant they clean up after themselves like dogs and their humans? is it really that hard to do? Come on!!! Who's with me?? We can take this to the highest courts and government... we can hold rallies and protests!! I think our slogan could be something like " Nature... who needs it?" or maybe " Animals... what was god thinking?" But hey... I am open to ANY and ALL suggestions on this... as long as " I " agree with it.... cause if I don't... then you just made my "list"


Are you joking, or do you honestly not realize that some people, at least, recognize that the intensity of trail usage matters. I've seen damage done by wildlife, for example, and don't express concern about it because (A) we couldn't possibly expect them to not do so, unlike the case with human users who could take personal responsibility for their use (that affects other human users), and more importantly (B) in areas that bear some semblance to a natural space, at least, the effects of wildlife are in some kind of equilibrium in a way that means their activities don't trash the place for, again in this case, human users of those spaces. When wild areas have been disturbed to the point that some species is doing serious harm, land managers frequently cull or do restoration work (or let the system go extinct, depending). What's so difficult to understand about this?

Similarly, I just don't understand the common rant about people discussing some issue like this that suggests it's equivalent to running to the government and courts. That's one possible avenue that people could take, of course. But the fact that people are trying to have a discussion about this here is a prime example of people not being a bunch a passive sheep just letting elites in government dish out to them whatever they're expected to take. The discussion, in part anyway, is folks who care about their communities and relevant issues in a personal and local way. How could you fault them for that? Seriously? You may not care the same way some do, or you may not share the same moral intuitions, sense of the facts, or something else, but mocking as though people who try to discuss an issue like this are a bunch of whining babies, WTF? I'm pretty sure there're issues that even you would take seriously enough to contribute positively to. Perhaps you should find a thread that takes those up?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

sxotty said:


> I don't ride a horse prodigal. I just think when people lie it undermines their argument. Horse crap isn't really a health hazard.


It is not a health hazard. It is a nuisance.

If you like your kids wading in manure, fine. I prefer to keep them out.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Or stick to this one, classiccanadianblizzard, if you really honestly are "open", as you say, to real discussion (I've changed my mind about this issue a couple of times, for example, as a result of considering or reconsidering various details).


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## classiccanadianblizzard (Apr 26, 2006)

Pithecoid said:


> Are you joking, or do you honestly not realize that some people, at least, recognize that the intensity of trail usage matters. I've seen damage done by wildlife, for example, and don't express concern about it because (A) we couldn't possibly expect them to not do so, unlike the case with human users who could take personal responsibility for their use (that affects other human users), and more importantly (B) in areas that bear some semblance to a natural space, at least, the effects of wildlife are in some kind of equilibrium in a way that means their activities don't trash the place for, again in this case, human users of those spaces. When wild areas have been disturbed to the point that some species is doing serious harm, land managers frequently cull or do restoration work (or let the system go extinct, depending). What's so difficult to understand about this?
> 
> Similarly, I just don't understand the common rant about people discussing some issue like this that suggests it's equivalent to running to the government and courts. That's one possible avenue that people could take, of course. But the fact that people are trying to have a discussion about this here is a prime example of people not being a bunch a passive sheep just letting elites in government dish out to them whatever they're expected to take. The discussion, in part anyway, is folks who care about their communities and relevant issues in a personal and local way. How could you fault them for that? Seriously? You may not care the same way some do, or you may not share the same moral intuitions, sense of the facts, or something else, but mocking as though people who try to discuss an issue like this are a bunch of whining babies, WTF? I'm pretty sure there're issues that even you would take seriously enough to contribute positively to. Perhaps you should find a thread that takes those up?


You just made my list! :lol:


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## joedirt24 (Jan 30, 2007)

If it wasn't for the people with horses I wouldn't have a place to ride. No problem pulling over for them.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> You just made my list! :lol:


Awesome, dude. Wish I knew what your standards for evaluating ideas was, BTW  
Oh well. As childish as I find it, 'spose I'm glad to be on somebody's list for something anyway. Rad.:thumbsup: Cheers and happy riding.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Curmy said:


> Bending over and being nice to people who are had actively and aggressively worked against cycling access for many years is clearly not doing us any favors. It just does not. Single track mountain bikers outnumber horse riders by 10 to 1 ratio nationally (quotes above in the thread).
> 
> Looking at some recent trail plans around here - same old, same old. "No bikes" and plenty of horses only multi-use trails. I do not see how more galvanized they can be. Sorry guys, but that does infuriate me, and I do not feel apologetic for that. I pay my taxes for that land, I do want to be able to use it.


Now that's at least 4 times you have said the same argument, are you just trying to pad your post count or what? It is no wonder this thread has gotten to 200 posts already with you posing the same thing over and over. I never suggested bending over, your argument is valid and I agree with most of what you say, but your hard headed repetition has driven me a step closer to the middle ground. The more you scream the less sane you sound, and it does not help this debate.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Thank you to those equestrians willing to post here and be honest. I feel any public horse trail should be open to bike use, and any public bike trail should be open to horse use. If you have horse only or bike only trails they should be designed in a way that would discourage use by the other sport, and should be a small section of an otherwise shared-use system. Not sure how any horse trail would be unattractive to a cyclist though, so that alone is good reason to only have horse only when you can also have bike only in the same area, which is not always possible. Change NO Bike or NO Horses to Bikes/Horses Not Advised and you would better accomplish a separation without the animosity.
I do not object to road apples and accept them as a consequence of trail use. I also believe if rules were proposed to ask equestrians to remove apples from the trail, they would come out in force to block the rules from being accepted. If equestrians had to pick up their horses poop, the sport of equestrian trail riding would disappear overnight. I believe this is one of the reasons some equestrians fight so hard against shared-use trails, once more people start to use a trail already used by horses, the new people are likely to start to complain about the road apples and the equestrians could lose access.
In my neck of the woods, there are a hand full of horses asses who do not want bikes being added to existing horse trails. We do not have the space to make separate trails and those separate trails we do have are regularly poached by the prohibited group, equestrians hate being told they cannot use a trail just the same as cyclist do.
Safety issues are a personal responsibility, it is not for an agency to make a trail safer by restricting access.
What bothers me most is that this "handful" embrace deception as an advocacy tool, and how easy otherwise honest people allow themselves to be duped into supporting the deceptions.
At meetings where these deceivers start sprouting their lies, I will not hesitate to bring out the arguments about horses being unsafe by nature and the horse should be the one restricted. These meetings are a brawl that we cannot win by being "reasonable" . We have to have sound arguments against horse access that will be considered by land managers. This then brings reasonable equestrians to the table and we can work to marginalize the equo terrorist.
Mountain bikers need to increase peer pressure to use trail etiquette, equestrians need to work harder to marginalize the equo terrorist. It means little for a cyclist to argue with those who say horses and bikes can not share, it means a lot when equestrians stand up to other "equestrians". 
So, to the equestrians who want our respect, speak out against the liars in your own group.
Lyle Wright
President Lake Oroville Bicyclists Organization


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## trvlingheart (Aug 16, 2009)

Zoke2 said:


> everything stated is all the more reason to keep horses off the trails
> 
> and you have got to be kidding me with the "horse poop doesnt bother me cause i'm around it all the time, I had no idea anyone else might have a problem with it"
> 
> and just so you know what it looks like here is a pic of one


And you wonder why people you don't even know have a smug attitude against you, because you can't tell one from another. I've told you I personally don't ride my horses on bike only trails, I clean up trails, and my horses are trained to not react negativly around bikes yet you respond as if you haven't read any of that and still choose to treat me like I'm an idiot. My only fault is the fact that my horse's manure bugs you, and I didn't know that because you didn't happen to tell me nicely on the trail while I passed you or asked for signs to be posted in the trails you ride (nice picture by the way, the trails I ride have none of the sort).
Horses were out in nature way before bikes were ever built. and I bet your so cool you could point out in history where horses have been in the past just by they lay out of the land and I'm sure you have a problem with wild horses roaming the earth and a problem with free range pastures that horses are kept on where trails happen to be. I bet it just bites you in the butt that Cumberland Island and other natural habitats and national parks still allow horses to roam free! How dare they! and Who is there to pick up there manure!! 
Give me a break! If you get so aggervated by the equestrians stick to your bike only paths and feel free to chew out the riders that ride them, I'm not one of them.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Flystagg said:


> Now that's at least 4 times you have said the same argument, are you just trying to pad your post count or what?


My four posts are far more relevant to this discussion then your posts counting them and lecturing me. If you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.



trvlingheart said:


> If you get so aggervated by the equestrians stick to your bike only paths


Where are those paths? All I can see around are "no bikes" signs, thanks to the equestrian lobby.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

trvlingheart said:


> And you wonder why people you don't even know have a smug attitude against you, because you can't tell one from another. I've told you I personally don't ride my horses on bike only trails, I clean up trails, and my horses are trained to not react negativly around bikes yet you respond as if you haven't read any of that and still choose to treat me like I'm an idiot. My only fault is the fact that my horse's manure bugs you, and I didn't know that because you didn't happen to tell me nicely on the trail while I passed you or asked for signs to be posted in the trails you ride (nice picture by the way, the trails I ride have none of the sort).
> Horses were out in nature way before bikes were ever built. and I bet your so cool you could point out in history where horses have been in the past just by they lay out of the land and I'm sure you have a problem with wild horses roaming the earth and a problem with free range pastures that horses are kept on where trails happen to be. I bet it just bites you in the butt that Cumberland Island and other natural habitats and national parks still allow horses to roam free! How dare they! and Who is there to pick up there manure!!
> Give me a break! If you get so aggervated by the equestrians stick to your bike only paths and feel free to chew out the riders that ride them, I'm not one of them.


Yeah, I saw some horses out in nature when I passed through Nevada and California last week. They weren't tromping on singletrack with horseshoes, they were in open-ranges. There is nothing similer with how horses act in the "wild" and equestrians riding horses on trails.

Also, you didn't know that horse sh*t bugs people? I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for this. Do you keep a nice little bowl of horse sh*t in your house? I knew that when it came to this issue, anyone and everyone in "support" of horses would start rationalizing this part of it. There are dozens of rationalizations that equestrians use to justify them crapping all over the trail and places that other people use and I haven't heard one that makes any sense. I've never seen deer, bear or any other animal just crap all over a trail like horses, not to mention bears usually don't travel in groups of 5+ and stay on the trail. I doubt you really like horse-crap on the trail, you're just on a horse where it doesn't bother you.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

trvlingheart said:


> Also HTR4EVR, I like your picture of the 'horse bike' from a Burningman event (I'm almost positive thats where it was taken by the back ground), do you know what year that was taken? Great idea! lol


1999... How could you remember that...?


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## trvlingheart (Aug 16, 2009)

My horses don't wear shoes, as with many other horses ridden on trails (obviously there are a number that do). And there is alot similar with horses in the wild and on a trail ride. Horses in the wild move in herds, typically when traveling they even follow single file driven by the doinant horse and actually follow paths that lead an eaiser way through densly wooded areas, in a feild they tend to travel in packs but if you pay close attention the horses follow one another. 

And I've said that if asked I would have had no problem cleaning up any piles my horse made Jayem, but I was never asked and it just didn't come to mind (yes it is as simple as that). And As I've said before I'll be more thoughtful now on a trail and will move what my horse leaves off past the woodline, because it has been brought to my attention. But unless parks list it in the rules or someone asks for it to be posted at the head of trails your argument is going to do no good on the board when it comes to other equestrians cleaning up their horses manure on a trail. Why not be proactive about your concerns and start requesting the parks you ride in, post a new policy on this?

HTR4EVR- What do you mean how can I remember that? It's Burningman, very unforgetable! 

Ok well my 2cents on this forum has turned in to much more and I'm.... spent.. HA HA HA You all have fun, and I'll wave at you and comment on the beautiful day when I see you on the trail (multi-use trail that is)! :thumbsup:


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## Bike Heritage (Sep 22, 2008)

I have never had a problem with horses or the people that ride them on the trails. It has been about 50/50 on the pull over and wait thing. Almost every time I was pedaling uphill, the rider stopped the horse and let me pass.

But I do have a gripe in all of this. The rules in where I ride specifically say, "No Equestrian or Mountain Bike use on trails that are wet". But if I hike the trail the day after a heavy rain...BINGO! some of these people think that this rule does not apply to them and they ride anyway/

The second part of my gripe is that I HAVE NEVER seen ONE of them on ANY type of trail maintenance project or work party. Come down off of the high horse and roll up your sleeves and give us a hand in keeping the trails in good conditions.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> Sure I did. Did you read my post? I have said that this argument would not apply, because it is not true. Bikes do not run people over - it just does not happen as far as I know. Any evidence otherwise?


Bikes do not run people over, are you effin kidding me? Never happens huh?
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=532564
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=529786
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=537622
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=440966


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Okay, let's all be honest. If I could have a section of trails for me and my horse and nobody else I would take it. But that isn't possible. We have to share the trails. Bikers, we get that you don't like the hoof marks and the poop. But we hate it when you're loud and come ripping down a hill from behind us or on a corner. The disadvantages for each group are the price that the others must pay if they want to continue to enjoy the trails. And horse poop is part of nature, just because it annoys you when you encounter it doesn't mean it isn't just another part of the trails.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lyndonchen said:


> Bikes do not run people over, are you effin kidding me? Never happens huh?


Statistics does not lie here - actual accidents are rare to non-existent. Check the number of accidents by sport.

There are always a few dumb yahoos on the trails, but even in the worst case it is nowhere near as dangerous as an out of control horse.



Ravel said:


> And horse poop is part of nature, just because it annoys you when you encounter it doesn't mean it isn't just another part of the trails.


No, poop in the middle of a trail in a park is not part of nature. Part of nature is poop in a meadow. Trail is not part of nature either. Just because you do not care about other people does not make that natural and acceptable.

I bet you would not like if somebody defecated on your front lawn.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

I believe that we all could agree that conditions on the trails could improve , that having been said I think that free and open dialoge is a good starting point . Maybe this seed will grow .


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> Statistics does not lie here - actual accidents are rare to non-existent. Check the number of accidents by sport.
> 
> There are always a few dumb yahoos on the trails, but even in the worst case it is nowhere near as dangerous as an out of control horse.


Ok then, let's see your evidence of biker injuries due to horses.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

lyndonchen said:


> Ok then, let's see your evidence of biker injuries due to horses.


Why bikers?

Simple google search first hit yields some recent examples: 
http://www.thedailysound.com/080809ParadeInjuries
http://himachal.us/2009/07/29/girl-injured-in-himachal-as-horse-goes-berserk/14509/news/ravinder

In any case - my initial post was in response to an assertion that an argument that horses are hard to control and dangerous can be used against cycling. I considered that argument bogus as bikes are obviously easy to control.


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## CraigE (Oct 1, 2008)

saddLLP said:


> Hi Bikers,
> There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open. We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day. So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side. Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


Thanks for your input SaddLLP. You are spot on in my opinion. I am a mountain biker who rides all the local multi-use trails in Orange County CA. My wife and daughter are hardcore equestrians. Their passion for horses has taught me plenty about your passion for horses. I totally agree with you and make an effort to practice good trail manners in areas frequently used by equestrians.

I have a bell on my bike (and use it a lot), as do most of the folks I ride with. In all fairness though I have yet to encounter a horse rider with a bell or other sounding device. And you guys have the ultimate right-of-way so maybe equines think they are above having to share the common risk of trail usage. I don't know. All I know is that 99% of the equines that I have encountered are totally cool. And then there are the 1 percenters that are total right-of-way abusers. Kind of like the mountain bikers I encounter out on the trails.

I respect that the trails that we all ride on were ridden by equines long before the mountain bike was ever even thought of. That's worth plenty in this debate!!!


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

saddLLP said:


> thought I was opening a good dialog to tame the tension, not give it a forum to get worse.


You were, and kudos for that.

Man, some of the responses just make me embarrassed to be lumped in the same group (mountain bikers).

Please understand that _most_ mountain bikers want the same thing you do, peace on the trails.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> In any case - my initial post was in response to an assertion that an argument that horses are hard to control and dangerous can be used against cycling. I considered that argument bogus as bikes are obviously easy to control.


They're only obviously easy to control from _your_ perspective. When you're going downhill at 30mph, I guarantee it's not at all obvious to the hiker in your path.

I'd like to hear about some actual accidents involving bikers being struck/injured by out-of-control horses. I'm sure it has happened (no sarcasm). Anyone have any links?


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Curmy said:


> It is not a health hazard. It is a nuisance.
> 
> If you like your kids wading in manure, fine. I prefer to keep them out.


I completely agree, and that was my point. I think honesty in a debate is good. Saying things that are untrue allows the other side to scoff and ignore valid points. I do not follow your philosophy, but I am fed up with the ban on bikes in wilderness areas.

@Rivet that was great information.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

lyndonchen said:


> I'd like to hear about some actual accidents involving bikers being struck/injured by out-of-control horses. I'm sure it has happened (no sarcasm). Anyone have any links?


Did you read this thread? There were several examples. The most likely person to get injured though is the equestrian. I've seen the results of equestrian accidents myself. Sometimes they don't even involve any other parties except the horse and the rider. Falling from that height head-first usually has bad results.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Jayem said:


> Did you read this thread? There were several examples.


There was one. On the first page. Any others?



Jayem said:


> The most likely person to get injured though is the equestrian.


Exactly.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Ravel said:


> Okay, let's all be honest. If I could have a section of trails for me and my horse and nobody else I would take it. But that isn't possible. We have to share the trails. Bikers, we get that you don't like the hoof marks and the poop. But we hate it when you're loud and come ripping down a hill from behind us or on a corner. The disadvantages for each group are the price that the others must pay if they want to continue to enjoy the trails. And horse poop is part of nature, just because it annoys you when you encounter it doesn't mean it isn't just another part of the trails.


Sorry man, no offense, but that's mighty weak. Seriously. Mountain bikers should be educated to be courteous trail users. No doubt. That means they shouldn't be unnecessarily loud or come ripping around corners. They're being total a-holes if they engage in rude behaviors.

But, rude behaviors are subject to modification. That means, with discussion, understanding, etc., bikers can change such behaviors in a way that doesn't impose such costs on other trail users. Last time I checked, about every respectable cycling club thought such rules should apply to bikers.

It is, then, in no way reasonable to suggest that a necessary cost of sharing the trails with cyclists is loud talk and reckless speed, and that it's somehow balanced out by the dung and serious trail damage done by horses. The way you present this, poop and trail damage are fixed costs of horses on trails. If that's the case, then lots of people are going to lobby against horses on trails. To be reasonable here, your position should be "bikers should continue to promote respectful and safe riding among themselves, and equestrians should START to acknowledge that something should be done about their relatively greater negative impact on trails, and that leaving crap on the trails is lame in the eyes of many people". This isn't meant to cover the whole discussion that could be had about trail use, just to take up the issues that you point out. It also isn't meant to be a "gotcha", but rather a respectful suggestion about how you might see these issues differently.

And yeah, like the other poster said, the claim that poop is natural yadda yadda comes off as totally lame. It's a "natural" part of trails because you (I guess?) don't notice it in the way that other trail users do. In parts of the world where I've traveled where littering is totally commonplace, lots of litterers would suggest that litter is just a natural feature of the landscape. The fact that poop degrades doesn't change this since it sticks around long enough to be a total nuisance to many other users. You could at least acknowledge this and take it into account.

I should mention again that I'm in no way actively suggesting that horses should excluded from trails. I am suggesting instead that some effort to think about costs and benefits of trail use in "fair" ways (which is the issue to be worked out) should be made. It's just hard to feel sympathetic when equestrians suggest that there's NOTHING to be done about the costs they impose.


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

Curmy said:


> Where are those paths? All I can see around are "no bikes" signs, thanks to the equestrian lobby.


Hmmm.........Anybody got a clue as to why all Curmy sees around are "no bikes" signs?.......


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## (Tom) (Jan 12, 2004)

Shelbak73 said:


> Hmmm.........Anybody got a clue as to why all Curmy sees around are "no bikes" signs?.......


Maybe he's from the SF bay area??? I have no idea what's going on in terms of access issues in crumy's world but it sounds like a lot of horse vs. bicycle.


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## sickspeed16 (Apr 9, 2008)

This is a discussion my friend, no need to disrespect another _person_ just because he/she doesn't see eye to eye with you.. This is the kind of arrogance/ignorance that the horse community feeds on to ban us from the trails. what is needed is more co-operation not fuel for an already out of control forest fire.

Many may feel the same way, but getting hot and bothered over the internet has never solved anything.. if so I'm sure obama would be typing away at Kim Jong right about now saying how small his penis is and how he'd have it removed with a vice grip and some pliers..


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## smittie61984 (Aug 26, 2004)

Curmy said:


> I bet you would not like if somebody defecated on your front lawn.


Better yet, take their "horse poop" and sling it on them and tell them it's part of nature.

Horses. I've been around a lot of them from growing up in th country. My buddy's father in law has a $250,000 horse (stud horse). The problem with horses are they are very very very dumb animals. Which is fine but the problem is the owners think they are the brightest creatures put on this planet. Understandable thinking when you invest so much money into them. But when you have a dumb animal that weighs 1,000lbs that gets spooked by a chipmunk that sneezes too hard then you have a problem.

I haven't had too many problems with horses around my parts. Mainly the horse poop which you would think could be fixed with one of those bucket things you see on the back of horses in parades.


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## WhiteLightning (Aug 12, 2009)

This doesn't seem to be too hard to understand. It's a about mutual respect. Your rights SHOULD end where another's begin. Period.

If you see a horse, be respectful. Put yourself in their shoes.

Personaly, I LOVE riding fast. But I'm no idiot. If I see a horse, I DON'T WANT TO GET KICKED. If you freak out a horse and it 'defends' itself, consider it a Darwinian learning moment.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Pithecoid said:


> Sorry man, no offense, but that's mighty weak. Seriously. Mountain bikers should be educated to be courteous trail users. No doubt. That means they shouldn't be unnecessarily loud or come ripping around corners. They're being total a-holes if they engage in rude behaviors.
> 
> But, rude behaviors are subject to modification. That means, with discussion, understanding, etc., bikers can change such behaviors in a way that doesn't impose such costs on other trail users. Last time I checked, about every respectable cycling club thought such rules should apply to bikers.
> 
> ...


Sorry I'm just stressed out today because my idiot farrier cut my horse's feet too short so he can't be ridden for a week. Do stupid people ever mess with your bikes and such?
Anyways, I was trying to say that you can't expect the horse people to improve until they see the mountain biking people improve and vice versa. For example, if a sign that says 'no horses advised when trails are wet' is put up, a sign saying 'yield for horses' or something similar should also be put up.
And I'm not a man btw.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ravel said:


> Anyways, I was trying to say that you can't expect the horse people to improve until they see the mountain biking people improve and vice versa. For example, if a sign that says 'no horses advised when trails are wet' is put up, a sign saying 'yield for horses' or something similar should also be put up.
> And I'm not a man btw.


Fail. Unfortunately that's one of the biggest problems these days. People want politicians to somehow magically fix everything, instead of changing their own ways. If you aren't willing to change yourself (without someone else forcing you to or some "tit for tat" structure), then don't ever expect anyone else to.


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## Videogirl32 (Jun 17, 2008)

I live where we actually have a trail that is designated as a MTN Bike trail ONLY. Yet even with at least 5 signs posted at every entrance into the trail (even thought the trail is supposed to be a one way trail with a Trail Head entrance) stating NO HORSES. There is always "evidence" of horses on the trail. There was even a recent incident where a group of bikers came across a group of horse riders and they stopped to let the horse riding group know that the trail was a mountain bike only trail just so that they would be aware of that fact for the safety of all. One of the guys on horseback lifted up his shirt revealing his gun and ask the mtnbkrs what they were going to do about it. The area has tons of places for horses to be riden, we have a small 5 1/2 mile loop for our mtn bikes. I don't think it's too much to ask for the posted signs to be adhered to. Especially since we are the only ones that maintain the trail, and the trail has some conditions that could be hazardous to horses and their riders. The results of the horses using the trail proves hazardous to the bikers too because they have destroyed several features in the trail including: some logovers, loosening the sand so much in some sections that you bog down in them, and not too mention the many holes their hooves have created.

My point is that yes there is damage caused by all users of all trails no matter what! But I also think that since we are asking for cooperation to be had by all, why not offer up solutions as well. One equestrian poster said that it was too much trouble for him to dismount because the horse is so tall. And another said that bags weren't a viable option because they are for carriages and such and they had no way to attach bags to their saddles. Well I did a 30 sec Google search and found this site
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=bun-bag

According to the directions on the site it would simply attach to your saddle. Sure looks like a reasonable solution to me, but I am no horse expert. They are inexpensive $50-$80 bucks (cheaper than most bike parts!). I know this is more for carriage riders and parading horses. But if those horses can wear them to protect the streets then why not on the trails too? This is just me trying to offer a solution to the equestrian community. If it is not a viable option please explain why not.

Perhaps the riders are used to horse poop and that's fine, but they also aren't getting all over their bikes, etc. where cleanup isn't as simple as taking a pitchfork or shovel and tossing it out the stable or horse trailer. And to the quote regarding you can just go get another bike... well yeah if you have the money! Neither recreational "vehicle" is cheap. Our bikes can (and in most cases do) cost thousands of dollars and we customize them to our liking. So to say you can just replace it is an ignorance on their part. Besides just like no two horses are exactly the same, the same holds true for bicycles.

By the way, I live in New Orleans where our mounted patrols ride some of the best trained horses in the world for not getting spooked. If you are ever here for Mardi Gras you will see what I mean. They are trained to not be afraid of anything! Drunks patting them on the behind, people fighting, gun shots, camera flashes, parades, you name it. Check out this clip on you tube showing a pair of New Orleans Mounted Police on Bourbon St during Mardi Gras.





I've seen some of the training they put the horses through it's absolutely amazing. Yes horses do have a mind of their own all living creatures do to some extent, some more than others. That doesn't mean that we can't all take a step back and try to see things from the other's perspective and try to find SOLUTIONS to the problems each presents to the other.

Just my opinions....


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

Ravel said:


> Sorry I'm just stressed out today because my idiot farrier cut my horse's feet too short so he can't be ridden for a week. Do stupid people ever mess with your bikes and such?


Yep, and no worries. That's why I've taken to being my own wrench. Not so easy with the horse, I expecct .



Ravel said:


> Anyways, I was trying to say that you can't expect the horse people to improve until they see the mountain biking people improve and vice versa. For example, if a sign that says 'no horses advised when trails are wet' is put up, a sign saying 'yield for horses' or something similar should also be put up.


Fair enough. In general, that seems just right to me. I think that's why so many MTBers keep wanting to hear some acknowledgment from the equestrian community that they need to take on, in a robust way, issues of trail damage/maintenance, and the poop issue, in the same way that IMBA and smaller clubs so robustly endorse and stress trail-use rules and etiquette for cyclists. Too bad that cyclists can sometimes be so bad at following through.



Ravel said:


> And I'm not a man btw.


  Sorry -- of course I noticed that above (but didn't register when responding here). I did mean it in the generic way, and it's better than a paternalistic and patronizing, "now you listen here missy". Of course, no need for attitude anyway in a conciliatory discussion. Cheers.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

This thread has revealed one undeniable truth. There are too many people on this planet. Please stop breeding.


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## Pithecoid (Aug 8, 2006)

sandmangts said:


> This thread has revealed one undeniable truth. There are too many people on this planet. Please stop breeding.


Totally. And if you want to transition that idea into another long, drawn out debate, just raise the issue of whether there's a relationship between lots of riding and reduced ability to breed . But not really.
But back to horses, or seeing a woman about a horse, or whatever the hell we've all been talking about...


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

trvlingheart said:


> I'll venture to make a response as an equestrian.
> 
> I think there are far more people that ride that live on an average income than most think. In all my years of riding I can only claim to have ridden with the rich and not so famous a hand ful of times, maybe it was just where I was riding.... maybe it wasn't who knows.
> 
> ...


whats so difficult about putting on one of those bags that catch the poop?

i ride a multi-use trail at least 3 times a week. i rode it today after having read this thread earlier and counted 12 piles of poop on one 3mi loop. it was hot and several of the piles were on steep climbs. passing them with their stench and flies sucks. yeah its a little more palatable then every biker taking a crap on the trail but it still sucks. the equestrians also litter the trail with canopy cuttings and broken limbs. its obvious to me that the equestrians are high impact users and it would be nice if they could at least catch the poop - look here, sounds like you need to buy a couple:
http://www.bunbag.com/


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

(Tom) said:


> Maybe he's from the SF bay area???


I am from SF Bay area, but you would see those signs in every wilderness - that do allow horse riding, and in every national park. I can not find any logical justification why on any particular trail that is robust enough to allow horse riding, a lower impact activity enjoyed by 10 time more people would not be allowed. Yes, I am pissed about that issue, and no I do not feel sorry about speaking up on some forum thread.

As far as for the local area, more then half of good parks around are horses only. Including wide fireroads. Why do I have to pay taxes for that land to be aquired and maintained?

Consider recent plan for La Honda open space preserve. Few trails in the corner for bikes, not even allowed to ride on existing fireroad across preserve, and everything, including singletrack to be open for horse riding? Look at the whole of East Bay. Look about how equestrians lies and fear mongering shut down opening Bill's trail in Marin county. How does that situation make even a shred of sense and how anybody would not be infuriated by such treatment?

I do not care about encountering horses on trails. Not too many of them. I will slow down, step off, say hi and a nice day. I can ride around a pile of poop, unpleasant, but one can deal with it. All I want is to be able to ride.


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## smittie61984 (Aug 26, 2004)

Videogirl32 said:


> One of the guys on horseback lifted up his shirt revealing his gun and ask the mtnbkrs what they were going to do about it.


He would have crapped a brick about the time someone pulled a SS 44mag out of the back of their camelbak. Then all you have to do is fire a random shot into the air and let the horses run in every which way and knock them into trees.

There is a park near us that has 3 seperate trails. One for walkers, one for mountain bikers, and one for horses. I think the walking and horse trails are paved in gold. Luckily the mtb trails are so crappy (brand new) that no horse would dare go on them.


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## tone capone (Jun 6, 2008)

I just wanted to say that mountain bikers who are afraid of horse crap are kinda ghey. 

All I care about is that when trails are trashed by horses, they should realize the type of trail damage they do and try to mitigate it. I would expect the same of bikers if they damage the trail. As far as the rest of it goes, I'm happy to see yall on the trail.


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

we need to go here and tell them how we feel:
http://www.e-equestrian.com/
http://www.equestrianpages.com/forum/default.asp
americantrailriders.ning.com
www.equine-friends.com
www.horse-forums.com


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

The fact that we have IMBA, in my area we have MORE and other advocacy groups that stress trail mantenance, safe riding practices and responsible land use regarding waiting for rain to dry etc. is what makes me sypathize with mountain bikers and loathe equestrians.

I know I will never be able to convince anyone of this but if mountain bikers were no different, I would say so.

If you were to go out on a MORE sanctioned ride but you didn't wear a helmet, you threw trash everywhere and bragged about how muddy you got last week when it rained then you would be scolded politely, educated about how you should be behaving and, if you refused to change, you would be excluded from the group.

Of course every group has bad apples but at least we are trying. If somebody can tell me that the equestrain clubs out there are working towards their own trail days, encouraging their members to clean up their horse poop and advising against riding when the resultant damage will be terribly sever then the conversation will begin. If they can't do that much on their own, the way we already have, then how can I expect them to listen to someone from outside their ranks?

They were out in force this weekend. Piles everywhere...


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Fail. Unfortunately that's one of the biggest problems these days. People want politicians to somehow magically fix everything, instead of changing their own ways. If you aren't willing to change yourself (without someone else forcing you to or some "tit for tat" structure), then don't ever expect anyone else to.


Actually, I HAVE done something about it. Citizens that walk around on the horse trails near my barn complained about the poop to the trail committee or what not. So in order to keep our privilege to enjoy the trails, the barn (including myself), without being notified by any government authorities, placed pitchforks out so we could clean up after done riding. After I finish my trail I clean up any poop that my horse left behind. Now I would like the dog owners to leash their vicious dogs because it says on the trail head dogs must be on a leash. I think that is a fair request. Just an example.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

scoutcat said:


> we need to go here and tell them how we feel:
> http://www.e-equestrian.com/
> http://www.equestrianpages.com/forum/default.asp
> americantrailriders.ning.com
> ...


No, we need to go to the politicians and appropriate civil authorities and tell them how we feel. It may not happen tomorrow, but our numbers will turn the tide.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Ravel said:


> Actually, I HAVE done something about it. Citizens that walk around on the horse trails near my barn complained about the poop to the trail committee or what not. So in order to keep our privilege to enjoy the trails, the barn (including myself), without being notified by any government authorities, placed pitchforks out so we could clean up after done riding. After I finish my trail I clean up any poop that my horse left behind. Now I would like the dog owners to leash their vicious dogs because it says on the trail head dogs must be on a leash. I think that is a fair request. Just an example.


I'm confused, they complained to the trail authorites, so you put out pitchforks without being notified?

Not exactly virtuous. Again, if my dog craps in someones yard and they ask me to pick it up, and I do, does that make me a saint?

Yes, leash dogs. You have my full support. No matter how well trained they may be, they are dangerous and unpredictable animals with a mind of their own and any dog owner who tells me it is impossible for their dog to attack me is either ignorant or lying.

But surely you don't just want the vicious ones leashed, you want them all leashed.

Now if only we could apply that same logic to...


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Ravel said:


> Actually, I HAVE done something about it. Citizens that walk around on the horse trails near my barn complained about the poop to the trail committee or what not. So in order to keep our privilege to enjoy the trails, the barn (including myself), without being notified by any government authorities, placed pitchforks out so we could clean up after done riding. After I finish my trail I clean up any poop that my horse left behind. Now I would like the dog owners to leash their vicious dogs because it says on the trail head dogs must be on a leash. I think that is a fair request. Just an example.


Cool, a snow shovel seems like a more efficient and lighter weight poop scooper. Yeah not a fan of unleashed dogs on the trails either....I've been bitten several times by "friendly, never bit anybody" fawkin dogs!


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

MisterC said:


> I'm confused, they complained to the trail authorites, so you put out pitchforks without being notified?
> 
> Not exactly virtuous. Again, if my dog craps in someones yard and they ask me to pick it up, and I do, does that make me a saint?
> 
> ...


Nobody has ever complained to us about it before. It just took one person to tell the authorities and we set up that system. I think a lot of horse people don't really know how much it bothers other people. There needs to be motivation for people to take action. The barn had motivation because we didn't want to lose the trails, so they set up pitchforks. I have motivation because my horse is a complete dressage snob who refuses to step on poop, walk in mud, be touched by or be too close to non-horse people etc. so I pick poop up, don't trail ride on days when I know the trails will be wet, and give walkers and bikes a very wide berth.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

I can't help my cynicism. I'm glad you do what you do but you seem to be a startling minority.

I just find it hard to believe that horse owners could be so dense as to not realize that poop in the trail would upset other trail users. I know, just instinctively, that leaving waste of any kind in the middle of the trail is just plain rude.

They don't clean up because it is too much trouble and they are lazy. I could be wrong, and obviously we have contrary examples but it really seem that threat of loss of trail use is the only thing that will motivate your group enough to see any difference.

And that is just a shame.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

Videogirl32 said:


> One of the guys on horseback lifted up his shirt revealing his gun and ask the mtnbkrs what they were going to do about it.


That is no longer a Horses vs. Bikes situation. That is a guy flashing a concealed firearm. As far as I understand (not living in USA) that is a criminal offence. *Call the police*.

(and I am all for people being allowed to have guns. I am also all for taking that privilege/right away from those who abuse it)

Oh, what have I done.... turning a perfectly good horse "discussion" into a nasty gun "discussion".


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

Oh great please don't bring up dogs in this forum, if you think some mountain bikers are rude to equestrians you should read some of our fine dog related threads.

Sounds like poop on the trail is just the way it's always been, and the equestrians have no reason to question the establishment, as it is to their benefit, e-whining about it won't help, maybe it is as simple as suggesting a new ordinance to the authorities. I'm sure park ranges would just love another rule they can enforce and hand out tickets for to generate revenue.


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## plate (Jan 22, 2004)

classiccanadianblizzard said:


> WOW!!! I am embarrassed to call myself a mountain biker right now. I must apologize to all equestrians out there on behalf of these "top shelf " mountain bikers. I am running into more and more of these types everyday. Most are too cool to even give a friendly wave to another biker... thus the misguide rants toward equestrians. Again, my deepest apologizes. enjoy the ride


My bad expirences lately have been with MTBRs, example saturday while riding brown mtn going up following my girlfriend dude comes up from behind me doesnt say a word and passes bar to bar, proceeds to come up on her, I yell out on your left and he passes her the same way which made her nervous cause he was so close dude never bothered to say a word.

On my way down came head to head with two guys coming uphill side by side on the right blocking half the trail, I yelded and they proceded to give me dirty looks cause they had to move over to the left to pass by me. There is a lot of bad attitude on the trails lately from MTBers.

So far the horse people at least around here have been way cool, its our own attitudes that kicking our a$$ lately and getting our trails closed....


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

plate said:


> My bad expirences lately have been with MTBRs, example saturday while riding brown mtn going up following my girlfriend dude comes up from behind me doesnt say a word and passes bar to bar, proceeds to come up on her, I yell out on your left and he passes her the same way which made her nervous cause he was so close dude never bothered to say a word.
> 
> On my way down came head to head with two guys coming uphill side by side on the right blocking half the trail, I yelded and they proceded to give me dirty looks cause they had to move over to the left to pass by me. There is a lot of bad attitude on the trails lately from MTBers.
> 
> So far the horse people at least around here have been way cool, its our own attitudes that kicking our a$$ lately and getting our trails closed....


I love when people complain about "dirty looks". When did we get so damn sensitive in this country that everyone has to be in a good mood all the time? If I'm in the middle of a long painfull climb and I'm on mile 30 that day I might be in a world of pain and in no mood to be friendly, does that make me evil or deserve to have my trails closed? 
But I'm sure it was a really dirty look. Probably burned a hole right through you.

And, of course, this again ties to my point that I don't care how "cool" horse people are. They could give me a cookie every time they see me and I would still take issue with the trail damage and horse crap. And, just the same, that can be totally surly when they see me and I don't care. These things all make nice stories but they mostly miss the point.

As for the passing thing, ok, yeah, not cool.


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## sickspeed16 (Apr 9, 2008)

+1 For no longer breeding....

+ No starvation
+ More resources 
+ More Land
+ Less lines at six flags.
+


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## bh10 (May 30, 2009)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> No, we need to go to the politicians and appropriate civil authorities and tell them how we feel. It may not happen tomorrow, but our numbers will turn the tide.


Yea thats the ticket, give those idiots a reason to make more laws. There is already way to much government in this country. :madman:


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## LeeL (Jan 12, 2004)

MisterC said:


> I can't help my cynicism. I'm glad you do what you do but you seem to be a startling minority.
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that horse owners could be so dense as to not realize that poop in the trail would upset other trail users. I know, just instinctively, that leaving waste of any kind in the middle of the trail is just plain rude.
> 
> ...


hey this thread is becoming reasonable! Hopefully it becomes contagious.


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## Rushan (Jul 21, 2009)

This thread has improved with a cross communication with some equestrians, but it takes those of us that have learned what is appropriate to teach new members of our societies to really start to make a difference. As a group we need to continue to be active in the community and provide constructive advice and feedback to make the trails a better place to ride.


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## Zoke2 (Nov 16, 2007)

what a concept ...


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

*So funny...*



Zoke2 said:


> what a concept ...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

saddLLP, most excellent post. Don't let the negative goons on this thread sway your vision of mtn bikers. 

Horses... Oh No..They poop, they do this, they do that, they're dangerouss, woooo.. It's a dangerous world, animals poop, ride around it, yield to horses, get a long with fellow trail users.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

saddLLP said:


> Hi Bikers,
> There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open. We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day. So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side. Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


I think there is a lot of animosity between the horseback and the biker community that has nothing to do with what goes on the trail.

Whenever I cross the path of a horseback rider, I usually yield for the moment and ask if it is ok to pass. I have not personally had a problem with any horseback rider.

On the other hand, I don't care for the snottiness or the privileged attitudes of equestrians, and so while I am polite to all trail users, the horseback riders better give something back to the trails and the other users or eventually, you won't be allowed on the trails.

I


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

:thumbsup:


sanjuro said:


> On the other hand, I don't care for the snottiness or the privileged attitudes of equestrians, and so while I am polite to all trail users, the horseback riders better give something back to the trails and the other users or eventually, you won't be allowed on the trails.
> 
> I


Sorry dude, but this is pure ignorance, especially if you are from Nor Cal. The equestrian community has a far greater influence on who's getting to ride what trails (legally ). Making lame statements only fuels more unwanted perceptions on the mtn bike community. Your stereotype of horse people is on par with stereo typing mtn bikers as skate punks, good job


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

In Nor Cal equestrians has a lot of power, specially in Butte County...


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

snowdrifter said:


> Making lame statements only fuels more unwanted perceptions on the mtn bike community. Your stereotype of horse people is on par with stereo typing mtn bikers as skate punks, good job


Your statements are FAR more lame then his. Especially your drivel about how life is dangerous. No, it is not, unless there are irresponsible people around.

Yes, the equestrians here have more pull on who's got to ride trails. That is exactly why he calls their attitude snotty and privileged.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Curmy said:


> Your statements are FAR more lame then his. Especially your drivel about how life is dangerous. No, it is not, unless there are irresponsible people around.
> 
> Yes, the equestrians here have more pull on who's got to ride trails. That is exactly why he calls their attitude snotty and privileged.


Well Curmy, if you ride your mtn bike fast and hard, it's dangerous. If you paddle out in the ocean to catch a wave, it's dangerous. You could be riding Saratoga gap, and get plowed into by another mtn biker far easier than a horse encounter. Or maybe your life isn't very dangerous, cause you just troll around mtbr, being a boy in bubble.

I've ridden thousands and thousands of miles on tight singletrack, and only 2 bad horse encounters, 1 my fault (too fast), 1 crazy ass horse. It's called multi use trails. I've had far more run ins with lameass mtn bikers, or hikers who just stand in the trail refusing to move like they own the place. There's going to be a bad egg every now and then, hiker, biker, horse peeps, trail runners, dog walkers, they're out there, DEAL WITH IT.

You have a piss poor attitude towards equestrians, you think you are getting the short end of the stick. Get organized, fight the good fight, not some lameass rant on MTBR. *****ing and moaning will get you nowhere fast:yesnod:


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

snowdrifter said:


> You have a piss poor attitude towards equestrians, you think you are getting the short end of the stick. Get organized, fight the good fight, not some lameass rant on MTBR. *****ing and moaning will get you nowhere fast:yesnod:


What was the last thing you have done to improve trail access?

My attitude to equestrians is just fine. I am courteous on the trail and I write polite letters to land managers. And I do call out their bull on a forum. As far as lameass rants - look at the mirror. You could not tie half a thought together without doing stupid personal remarks.

"Deal with it"? That's what you tell to victims of drunk drivers? What a load of drivel.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

Curmy said:


> "Deal with it"? That's what you tell to victims of drunk drivers? What a load of drivel.


LOL. Are you comparing equestrians to drunk drivers? Because of the hundreds of mtn bikers they slaughter each year?

Earlier I asked for stories of bikers getting struck or injured by horses. I mean, if they're that dangerous mtbr should be rife with reports right? The injury forum alone should be filled with stories. Right?

Nope.

If you read the injury forum, there's a bazillion ways for bikers to get hurt. Horses are not one of them. Not saying it can't happen or doesn't, but it's not as prevalent a problem as you're making it out to be. Sorry, the idea of equestrians as endangering other trail users has been debunked.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Curmy said:


> What was the last thing you have done to improve trail access?
> 
> My attitude to equestrians is just fine. I am courteous on the trail and I write polite letters to land managers. And I do call out their bull on a forum. As far as lameass rants - look at the mirror.
> 
> "Deal with it"? That's what you tell to victims of drunk drivers? What a load of drivel.


This year I'm an IMBA member. I've maintained trails locally, built trail extensions, and reroutes at my local spot. I wrote my State Reps about the Wilderness Act. I buy a season pass at Kingdom Trails.

Why, are we comparing good deeds?

Your wasting your breath, your countless posts about Horse Crap does nothing for gaining you trail access.

Here's how you "Deal with It" when there's a horse crap in the trail, bunnyhop, but that might be dangerous:skep:


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

sanjuro said:


> I think there is a lot of animosity between the horseback and the biker community that has nothing to do with what goes on the trail.
> 
> Whenever I cross the path of a horseback rider, I usually yield for the moment and ask if it is ok to pass. I have not personally had a problem with any horseback rider.
> 
> ...


Part of the problem is simply that the average mountain biker thinks differently from the average horse person. I know this is terrible for me to do but I have my own stereotypes of my own people. In general, I find the people with horses ranging from 15k-25k to be the most well-rounded. There's a difference between a horse person and a jerk sitting on a horse. Some people on horses on the trails don't know very much about horses or trails. But there are people that are the opposite of that.


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## Craptasticycle (May 29, 2008)

Ravel said:


> Part of the problem is simply that the average mountain biker thinks differently from the average horse person.


Thank you for noticing, we are typically better educated and more polite than the typical horseback rider - that takes a big person to admit that.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Craptasticycle said:


> Thank you for noticing, we are typically better educated and more polite than the typical horseback rider - that takes a big person to admit that.


There are intelligent riders of both bikes and horses and brain-dead riders of bikes and horses.
Personally I find it amusing that I, a fifteen year old, have been having a serious debate with you guys, who I assume to be men between the ages of 30-50 and I have been taken very seriously. My mission here is complete *runs away laughing*


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

snowdrifter said:


> This year I'm an IMBA member. I've maintained trails locally, built trail extensions, and reroutes at my local spot. I wrote my State Reps about the Wilderness Act. I buy a season pass at Kingdom Trails.
> 
> Why, are we comparing good deeds?
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm the poop guy. And you are just like everyone else who is a wizard at missing the point.

For...the...love...of...god...of course we can avoid the poop. I did it today, wasn't happy about it but I managed. And what else, well, I could throw my shot blok and gel wrapers on the ground with minimal impact. I could leave busted tubes on the trail or empty lube bottles and gatorade at the trail head. My bottle is starting to smell funny, I'll just pitch it.

Now you might say, "well, those things don't biodegrade". Yeah, but they also won't end up in your mouth.

Do you really disagree with the idea what a horse owner should have to clean up after it? I get that they don't have to and so they don't, but do you think they should/? And if not, why not? Why are they subject to a different standard than the rest of us? And "because thats the way it is" is not an answer.

But, to reiterate, despite the fact that I think your thinking is backwards, I appreciate your contribution to the community. Assuming you are tellign the truth, of course.

I rode a trail that I cut myself today, and let me tell you, its awful and needs to be recut.

Just awful. In fact, the last two trails that were cut aren't working out too well. But it is still fun to ride trails that you built yourself. I can't wait to see how angry I get if they get destoyed by horse traffic.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Ravel said:


> Okay, let's all be honest. If I could have a section of trails for me and my horse and nobody else I would take it. But that isn't possible. We have to share the trails. Bikers, we get that you don't like the hoof marks and the poop. But we hate it when you're loud and come ripping down a hill from behind us or on a corner. The disadvantages for each group are the price that the others must pay if they want to continue to enjoy the trails. And horse poop is part of nature, just because it annoys you when you encounter it doesn't mean it isn't just another part of the trails.


First, thanks for actually posting in this steaming pile of a thread. Please understand that that this kind of thread is a magnet for all the people who I really hope _do not_ become the face of the mountain biking community in the eyes of equestrians. We all get along fine (bikers and equestrians) everywhere I have lived.

I applaud your taking the poop issue seriously at your place, despite not finding it a big deal yourself. I'm surprised people are giving you such a hard time about it.

But, yeah. The poop. Lets talk about the poop. We really need to get together with you all on that and get you to REALLY understand what it is like on the other end of that one. I think the difference in our perspectives on poop stems from two sources:

First, you are 5 feet off the ground. Consider for a moment what it would be like to walk (down here where we are) _behind _your horses every time you went out. Behind ALL the horses. You will start noticing it a lot more

Second, how do we view the stuff coming out the posterior of this animal? I will confess that I do not find horse poop as foul as say, dog or human poop, but that really an issue of personal taste. For a lot of folks, if it comes out of something's @ss, it's sh!t. There are no "_degrees of sh!t_" it's just sh!t. Actually, I think "_feces_" really captures the way many people who don't shovel it all day think about it. You need to understand that for many non-equestrians, "_Manure_" is a euphemism for "_large, steaming piles of feces_". So, picture a large steaming pile of feces of a variety that you find offensive (such as the loaf you wish you had not seen in the clogged or un-flushed toilet at that rest stop). OK, now picture that all over the trail, and you get an idea how some people feel about the stuff you call "_manure_".

Sorry, I digress.

I will cede that feces in nature is a very normal occurrence. However, you will notice that the trails are remarkably (though not completely) free of feces from bears, deer, squirrels, turkey, snakes, mountain lions and wood rats. Furthermore, it is also quite rare to see the feces of other trail users, with the occasional exception of our canine companions. Yet this case is instructive, as we ALL heap scorn upon the unseen owner of the unseen dog who produced the offending turd. Yes, defecation in the woods is the way God meant for all of his creatures to relieve themselves, but not all along a single 6" wide strip that all of his other creatures/children need to walk/bike through.

So, I understand that it is just the way it goes that these magnificent creatures you love poop on the trails, and it may not be realistic to expect that it gets picked up in many cases. I WANT you all to enjoy the trails, and I do see horses as having a special place in our heritage. If tolerating the poop is what it takes, I'll do it. Just please be aware that this poop issue _really is _something that we _tolerate_ (as in we don't like it but we put up with it), and for some, it is really disgusting. It looks and feels very different when you are riding through it.

Again, thanks for taking the issue seriously where you are.

PS, yeah, we'll work on the bikers who don't know how to approach a horse.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

snowdrifter said:


> Your wasting your breath, your countless posts about Horse Crap does nothing for gaining you trail access.
> 
> Here's how you "Deal with It" when there's a horse crap in the trail, bunnyhop, but that might be dangerous:skep:


You are wasting your breath arguing about things that only exist in your mind.

My point had been about trail access. Horse crap issue is secondary. I was not talking about it.  Poorly trained horses are dangerous not because they crap. And I wish I could teach my 5 year old daughter to bunnyhop over piles of feces. But I would much rather prefer that she does not have to.

But I am indeed wasting my breath answering a person who lists "Manwhore" as his occupation. You are obviously too cool for an actual discussion.



MisterC said:


> And you are just like everyone else who is a wizard at missing the point.


He indeed is.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

One thing I just can't seem to bring myself to do is sympathize with someone who is fighting against a rule that no longer allows the sacrificing of my use of the trails because to do otherwise would be really hard.

It's not just MTBs, we fly by the stuff. But there are families with kids all over the trails near me and I can't imagine its fun for them to walk past these steaming stink mounds.


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## Duce97 (Jun 15, 2009)

Where i do most of my trail riding its multi use trail. I dont mind sharing the trails at all with anyone. I will say this though , 95% of our trail care days are spent fixing damage to the trails done by horses and shoveling off the poop left by them. The other 5 % is fixing bike damage and picking up trash left behind by hikers and kids that decide to drink there at night.

I dont care what anyone does to the trails next to totaly destroying them because they can be fixed but what id really like to know is where the hell are they on trail care days? I have yet to see one equestrian or hiker attend one of our trail care days. I ride these trails daily and have yet to even see one clean up after thier animals or their self for that matter. I know not all of them are like this but so far the ones in my area are and thats all i have to go on.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

*Yep Curmy is dead on =)*
The sfbay has a strong horse influence in local politics, especially on the peninsula where I live (mtn view) ...

I just pedal my bike from home up to a fire road that connects to the pen open space and then I ride my brain out .. I wait tables so I have oppurtunities to ride on week day mornings when I see NO ONE .. I ride hard during the winter because that is when I can go any day and NO ONE else is up there ... The trails up there are absolutely gorgeous too =)

But yep I have to go through horses only territory to get up to the mountain summit, If any one messes with me I say " I am local " and thats it, otherwise I dismount for hikers .. and I have never seen a horse up where I go, ...... they usually stay close to the barns =)

Besides I ride an IRON HORSE =) =)


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Curmy said:


> Where are those trails we can use? In national parks? In wilderness they kicked us out? In local state parks that prohibit cycling?
> 
> Are they doing trail maintenance? Not around here. (SF Bay area)


I appreciate that the equestrian folks have posted here for discussion....but....

Having lived in the SF Bay Area for several years, I know exactly what you're talking about. Many trails for horses and hikers, but almost none for mountain bikers....that's my tax dollars at work excluding bikes!

As somebody else said the horses tend to walk the outside of the trail, thus breaking down and eroding the trail very quickly. Would be nice to have more un-paved (Mountiain bike) trails.



Curmy said:


> You are wasting your breath arguing about things that only exist in your mind.
> 
> My point had been about trail access. Horse crap issue is secondary. I was not talking about it. Poorly trained horses are dangerous not because they crap. And I wish I could teach my 5 year old daughter to bunnyhop over piles of feces. But I would much rather prefer that she does not have to.
> 
> ...


Amen to that!



Ravel said:


> There are intelligent riders of both bikes and horses and brain-dead riders of bikes and horses.
> Personally I find it amusing that I, a fifteen year old, have been having a serious debate with you guys, who I assume to be men between the ages of 30-50 and I have been taken very seriously. My mission here is complete *runs away laughing*


If you legitimately come here for honest discussion why would I care what your age, sex, religion, etcetera is??? Runs away laughing....hmmm mature.....


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

snowdrifter said:


> saddLLP, most excellent post. Don't let the negative goons on this thread sway your vision of mtn bikers.
> 
> Horses... Oh No..They poop, they do this, they do that, they're dangerouss, woooo.. It's a dangerous world, animals poop, ride around it, yield to horses, get a long with fellow trail users.


Agreed. I mean seriously. Buncha nancies.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

bh10 said:


> Yea thats the ticket, give those idiots a reason to make more laws. There is already way to much government in this country. :madman:


Yes, I agree that there is way to much government in this country. But sometimes you have to correctly manipulate the system to get what you want.

I think that if the proper facts were presented by enough MTBers the equestrians would lose most of *their* trails.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Ravel said:


> There are intelligent riders of both bikes and horses and brain-dead riders of bikes and horses.
> Personally I find it amusing that I, a fifteen year old, have been having a serious debate with you guys, who I assume to be men between the ages of 30-50 and I have been taken very seriously. My mission here is complete *runs away laughing*


What a pathetic farewell.:skep:

We had a blast today riding in horse only trails for the most part. Not a single equestrian around because they go out on weekends but they want the trails reserved for them the whole week. None sense. Multiuse is the way to go...










https://www.multiusetc.org/


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)

I hate horses, besides they cost more then a good motorbike. Bikes also make more noise and this is why some people like to cycle; its calm and soothing...why in the hell would we want to go on a trail and make a bunch of noises. All we need to do is use some brains, and a little bit of common-sense go's a long way.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

From US Forest service: "In 2003, 21% of Americans rode a mountain bike on a dirt road or trail during the year."

It is a lot of us. And modern mountain bike is just a quarter century old..


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Curmy said:


> From US Forest service: "In 2003, 21% of Americans rode a mountain bike on a dirt road or trail during the year."
> 
> It is a lot of us. And modern mountain bike is just a quarter century old..


I like the link, thanks...

"Trail studies by Cessford and others have indicated that mountain bikes are not the problem and poor trail design and lack of management are the problems."


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## Agent-Boltron (Jul 3, 2009)

Ok everyone calm down and lets all just be friends. Bikers, it is not going to do you any harm to simply yell out "Passing on your left" and slow down a bit when passing ponies. Horse riders you could pick up the steaming piles of poo that are currently covering all the trails. Also I do agree that horses cause plenty of damage to the trails, so if your little ponies can go on trails, then our bikes should have full access too. Also for all of the jerky bikers here "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" -Ghandi


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)

Curmy said:


> From US Forest service: "In 2003, 21% of Americans rode a mountain bike on a dirt road or trail during the year."
> 
> It is a lot of us. And modern mountain bike is just a quarter century old..


yes that is a large number but dont forget while 21% of you are out riding the rest can be found at Mc D's


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

HTR4EVR said:


> I like the link, thanks...
> 
> "Trail studies by Cessford and others have indicated that mountain bikes are not the problem and poor trail design and lack of management are the problems."


It is always encouraging when a large land management agency says something that does make complete sense.

Unfortunately many local boards are incapable of grasping that simple fact that you have cited. Maybe because that will expose their "lack of management" (Hello, EBRPD)..


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I can't suffer through 4 pages of this, but I get the rift. I love animals. Horse are among my favorites. As people, we all need to be considerate of those animals. Whether they are in control or not, doesn't matter. You were born to this planet, take care of it. Its called being a good steward simple as that.

As for the rift, its caused by callous and ignorance on both parties: human mtb'rs and human equestrians. Don't forget this point, it is important. 

Like many I have seen the good, bad and ugly. I've been out riding and out of water, and a cowboy (that's what I call horseback guy riders) gave me a bottle of water. I've been out riding on a trail closed to horses, mtb only trail, each entrance is marked with the horsey in the ghost busters circle, and there not 100yds into a very "north shorey" trail is a group of horseback riders lamenting over one of their fallen, a horse with a busted ankle. The horse WAS FORCED to walk over a north shore elevate bridge and fell through. In between tears of anguish, and guilt, and rage, and empathy, I fought to say nothing. I can't imagine how its owner felt. I do hate horse shet too. Don't know why some people in certain smaller parks cant pack bags, but so be it. 

I do know this: most times, the trails will be there tomorrow and the day after. Why not spend a moment being courteous to horses as best you can, bite your tongue even when it's obvious you should yell in rage, and then 15 sec's later, just get back on your bike and ride.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

saddLLP said:


> They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step.


So basically it's Chuck Norris in animal form?


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## sunset1123 (Apr 28, 2009)

Let's see... My experience with equestrians versus my experience with my fellow mtbers:

Campbell Mesa area, out toward the AZ Trail: Fast, swoopy, fun ST. I was going fast. Saw a horse and rider ahead. Slowed down. She moved her horse off the side of the trail, waved, and said "good morning." There was a little manure on the trail, and I had to be careful not to ride through it. (It sucks getting horse manure sprayed all over your water bottle).

Alternatively,

Sunset Trail, just dropping into the catwalk: Narrow ass trail with 1000ft drop off one side. I was riding with my GF who is a much less experienced mtber. Two other mtbers come up behind us and demand that we 'move over' so they can get by... I'm looking around like 'move over where?!?' We decline, and they try to push by us anyways. Finally, we both end up standing on the upslope side of the trail in loose scree while they race off down the trail.

Sorry. If mtbers can't even show courtesy to each other, I fail to see how we are going to get along with anyone else.


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## CraigE (Oct 1, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> Let's see... My experience with equestrians versus my experience with my fellow mtbers: <snip>
> 
> Sorry. If mtbers can't even show courtesy to each other, I fail to see how we are going to get along with anyone else.


Pretty well sums up my experiences too. It's sad.


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## CraigE (Oct 1, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> Let's see... My experience with equestrians versus my experience with my fellow mtbers: <snip>
> 
> Sorry. If mtbers can't even show courtesy to each other, I fail to see how we are going to get along with anyone else.


Pretty well sums up my experiences too. It's sad.


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## gthcarolina (Mar 3, 2005)

*Women, Horses, Power and War*

These four things above others.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

gthcarolina said:


> These four things above others.


It looks like power is stronger: 



 (not for those who like horses)


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

*EQUESTRIANS*

Stay on designated roads, trails, and other areas open to horse use.
Be considerate of others on the road or trail.
Avoid spooking livestock and wildlife you encounter.
When riding, be especially cautious around hikers and bikers.
*Ride single file to reduce trail damage, and don't cut switchbacks.*
Water animals in areas where stream banks and water access can withstand hard use and are downstream from campsites.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Poor horse on the video... Ouch!...


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Curmy said:


> It is always encouraging when a large land management agency says something that does make complete sense.
> 
> Unfortunately many local boards are incapable of grasping that simple fact that you have cited. Maybe because that will expose their "lack of management" (Hello, EBRPD)..


Hopefully it isn't just when you happen to agree that is makes complete sense 

Horses are stronger


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## MTBJong (Feb 22, 2008)

Recreation on share use trails has risks. Bikes, horses, walkers, joggers, strollers, etc... all belong and need to share the trail. We are stuck with each other and need to get over it.

I think people are too sanguine about MTB etiquite. We all know that guy. You know the one who rides trail sporting armor and full face on a slack AM bike and who thinks he is on a closed course any time his front wheel points down hill.


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## gthcarolina (Mar 3, 2005)

*I think that might be war, too.*



Curmy said:


> It looks like power is stronger:
> 
> 
> 
> (not for those who like horses)


Wow, those rally cars can take a beating.

So who was at fault? By extension, does that make a cyclist hit by a motorist the "dumb" animal?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

gthcarolina said:


> Wow, those rally cars can take a beating.
> 
> So who was at fault? By extension, does that make a cyclist hit by a motorist the "dumb" animal?


The car spooked.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)




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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

MTBJong said:


> Recreation on share use trails has risks. Bikes, horses, walkers, joggers, strollers, etc... all belong and need to share the trail. We are stuck with each other and need to get over it.


The key here is "ALL" belong. Somebody should politely explain that to the Sierra Club and equestrians.



MTBJong said:


> I think people are too sanguine about MTB etiquite. We all know that guy. You know the one who rides trail sporting armor and full face on a slack AM bike and who thinks he is on a closed course any time his front wheel points down hill.


Yes, we know that guy. I like the odds of him taking himself out for the season before taking out somebody else.

But as in that Forest Service quote - it is about designing and managing trails with MTB users in mind (in addition to everybody else). Have not heard about many issues with that guy frоm Downieville or Moab.


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> Let's see... My experience with equestrians versus my experience with my fellow mtbers:
> 
> Campbell Mesa area, out toward the AZ Trail: Fast, swoopy, fun ST. I was going fast. Saw a horse and rider ahead. Slowed down. She moved her horse off the side of the trail, waved, and said "good morning." There was a little manure on the trail, and I had to be careful not to ride through it. (It sucks getting horse manure sprayed all over your water bottle).
> 
> ...


That's your experience with a horse. You really want to size up the equestrians based on one encounter? My first experience with a Navajo's when I moved to Flagstaff was being assaulted by a couple drunks inside uptown billiards, and having to place one of them in a head lock and toss him out on the sidewalk. I didn't feel that justified the view that all Navajo's were drunks.

I've had 200 or more encounters with equestrians. A couple weeks ago I was doing trail work with a large group and a local character named JD came up the trail with his usual companions; JD was riding a mule and pulling a train of five more mules not being ridden by anyone. Alongside of him were a half-dozen large dogs. He saw my Forest Service shirt and stated to me that he was completely legal this time, whatever that meant. I run across him every summer. He refuses to move off trail to allow bikers to pass and has left the trail and ridden around work crews despite being told the trail is closed.

Last week I came up behind a group of six horse riders. Five women and one man. They had cut through the woods from the horse camp to the multi-use trail, ignoring the actual connector trail built for them to ride to access the trail. Why? Because they have destroyed the connector trail and rather than offer to come out and repair it, they expect others to fix it for them, and until that happens, they will continue riding through the woods, creating a series of social trails. What struck me most about this group was that not one of them was fit looking. They were all terribly obese. Not the type of people who would ever offer to do any volunteer trail work.

This last week I never caught up to the horses that had been using the trail before me because I had to stop too many times to repair damages to the trail that they had made. They were knocking rocks off the edge of the trail onto the center line of the trail and the horses were dragging their hooves through the earthen water bars, making them less likely to route water off the trail. They also left several piles of manure on the trail that were covered with flies (probably laying more eggs).

During the last ten rides I've taken, I've also come across dozens of mountain bikers. Despite traveling in opposite directions at fairly high speeds, compared to horses, we all passed each other without incident. Someone always yielded to the other group, without anyone having to shout to get them to. I think the reason is that mountain bikers are focused on the trail ahead of them. They must pay attention to ride safely. Horse riders can sit atop their animals and daydream, knowing the animal will slowly follow whatever trail they are on. It's like when you rent a horse to ride on a familiar trail. They know the trail and all you do is sit and let them take you on your one hour ride. You don't have to be fit to ride a horse and the horse doesn't need any training. Just give it a gentle kick and sit there like a bump on a log. Seeing a horse rider sitting on his animal on the side of a trail waving is no reason to praise equestrians for being responsible trail users. My experience is that they are fat and lazy people who without that horse to haul their fat asses into the woods, would never be out there. And like others have stated over and over, they never show up on volunteer trail maintenance days.


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## paddlepedal (Aug 5, 2009)

The only reason I can imagine why equestrians remain on public trails is because the user group as a whole contains more people who have the money to effectively lobby.

Interesting point: my dog bites someone while I am out walking him on hiking trails, I get sued and the dog possibly put down. The dog has to be leashed and under my direct control. The dog's feces have to be removed from the trail and disposed of by me, the responsible dog owner/walker. Hikers and bikers do not have to yield to me and my "killer" animal. The dog on his own does very little to no damage to trails since he weights just over 100lbs. and does not wear metal shoes.

Equestrians on the other hand ride on top of their animals and by that very nature cannot control them. The horse is not led via leash or other control mechanism, and nothing short of 5 humans possibly with guns can hold it back from attacking another animal or human. Equestrians allow their horses to $h!t all over the trails and make absolutely no effort to recover this markedly large and stinky amount of toxic waste. Equestrians expect (as do the orgs that govern trail use) that all others using the trails yield to them and their unpredictable animals. Horses weigh well over 10x what a human on MTB does and ride on metal rather than rubber, therefore doing significantly more damage to trails and roads etc. Can I sue an equestrian whose horse kicks me off my bike and breaks my hip? Probably not since he/she has the right of way on "our" trails...and there's no way in hell their $20k animal is going to be killed because of it!

The only reason I can see why equestrians and their horses are so favored by regulatory bodies is because they belong to a "class" of significantly more wealthy people who can lobby for those priviledges. So, I guess what we all really need to do is start recruiting as many millionaires as possible into the world of MTB!!


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

paddlepedal said:


> The only reason I can imagine why equestrians remain on public trails is because the user group as a whole contains more people who have the money to effectively lobby.
> 
> Interesting point: my dog bites someone while I am out walking him on hiking trails, I get sued and the dog possibly put down. The dog has to be leashed and under my direct control. The dog's feces have to be removed from the trail and disposed of by me, the responsible dog owner/walker. Hikers and bikers do not have to yield to me and my "killer" animal. The dog on his own does very little to no damage to trails since he weights just over 100lbs. and does not wear metal shoes.
> 
> ...


I hate to jump in here again but the riders with lots 
of money are using their horses for jumping dressage etc. The people on trails usually are middle class. Sometimes the more expensive horses will take little vacations to trails but I can usually tell the difference by looking at the horse and rider whether they're vacationing or a regular trail user. A lot of the trail horses are sold AS trail horses because they are no longer able to perform well in the ring, ie. their joints are weak, slow moving, not as well bred, or old.

good dressage horse: 




good trail horse: 




Also notice the difference in the people around the horses, tack, environment etc.

Dressage show: 



 (this is who won)

Trail riding show: 



 (I would show the winning team but it was a mule)


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## paddlepedal (Aug 5, 2009)

Ravel said:


> I hate to jump in here again but the riders with lots
> of money are using their horses for jumping dressage etc. The people on trails usually are middle class. Sometimes the more expensive horses will take little vacations to trails but I can usually tell the difference by looking at the horse and rider whether they're vacationing or a regular trail user. A lot of the trail horses are sold AS trail horses because they are no longer able to perform well in the ring, ie. their joints are weak, slow moving, not as well bred, or old.
> 
> good dressage horse:
> ...


Good point Ravel thanks for the info. So what does a good trail horse usually retail for?


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## sunset1123 (Apr 28, 2009)

The Prodigal Son said:


> That's your experience with a horse. You really want to size up the equestrians based on one encounter? My first experience with a Navajo's when I moved to Flagstaff was being assaulted by a couple drunks inside uptown billiards, and having to place one of them in a head lock and toss him out on the sidewalk. I didn't feel that justified the view that all Navajo's were drunks.


Point missed. What I was getting at was that mtbers really have no 'moral high ground' to speak of in this debate. Sure I don't have a great deal of contact with equestrian trail users, but what I have had has been decent. I could have listed a dozen incidents with mtbers unable/unwilling to show common courtesy or trail decorum to me while riding.



The Prodigal Son said:


> My experience is that they are fat and lazy people who without that horse to haul their fat asses into the woods, would never be out there. And like others have stated over and over, they never show up on volunteer trail maintenance days.





The Prodigal Son said:


> What struck me most about this group was that not one of them was fit looking. They were all terribly obese. Not the type of people who would ever offer to do any volunteer trail work.


I know you and many others who have the time and inclination work hard to maintain and build the trails. This is good work, and you all have our respect and admiration. Regardless, if they are public multi-use trails, no one has more 'right' to them than anyone else. I don't see how you can look down on people simply because they don't get out and do the same work you do. That kind of superiorist attitude of entitlement leads nowhere... would you have only trail crews be able to access the trails for recreation? How about only physically fit people?

Give it a rest.

Regarding your analogy to drunken indians... really... you encountered drunks? in a bar? seriously? wow.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

paddlepedal said:


> Good point Ravel thanks for the info. So what does a good trail horse usually retail for?


I'm no expert on trail horses but I'd say anywhere between 2-5k, but the price range of trail horses is usually $100-4k. Most trail horses are western, and western horses are in general cheaper than english horses. Horses in the midwest or other areas where there are a lot of farms around are in general cheaper, and horse auctions are usually full of cheap horses ranging from $100-1k.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> Point missed. What I was getting at was that mtbers really have no 'moral high ground' to speak of in this debate.


We have some. We are not the ones who are lobbying for exclusion of other user groups and for special treatment. And it is an indisputable fact that cycling causes impact comparable to hiking and much much smaller then horse riding..


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## sunset1123 (Apr 28, 2009)

Curmy said:


> We have some. We are not the ones who are lobbying for exclusion of other user groups and for special treatment. And it is an indisputable fact that cycling causes impact comparable to hiking and much much smaller then horse riding..


True... these facts are not in dispute. I think the biggest obstacle to overcome as far as mountain bike advocacy is concerned is that we are relative newcomers to the issue, and seem to make the most noise. Historically, this has been a difficult position for any group. It is easier for some to marginalize the noisemakers than to change policy. This still doesn't change the fact that we (mtbers) need to shape up out on the trails and spend some time looking at and critiquing our own user group instead of complaining about everyone else.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> True... these facts are not in dispute. I think the biggest obstacle to overcome as far as mountain bike advocacy is concerned is that we are relative newcomers to the issue, and seem to make the most noise. Historically, this has been a difficult position for any group. It is easier for some to marginalize the noisemakers than to change policy. This still doesn't change the fact that we (mtbers) need to shape up out on the trails and spend some time looking at and critiquing our own user group instead of complaining about everyone else.


The bulk of complaints about cycling around here is about cycling on illegal trails. As that NFS page I have cited notes, people ride illegal trails when they do not have properly managed legal options.

So we can spend a lot of time introspecting, but the solution to the biggest problem is largely external to the MTB community, and that is trail access and management.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Curmy said:


> The bulk of complaints about cycling around here is about cycling on illegal trails. As that NFS page I have cited notes, people ride illegal trails when they do not have properly managed legal options.
> 
> So we can spend a lot of time introspecting, but the solution to the biggest problem is largely external to the MTB community, and that is trail access and management.


Always someone else to blame. Everything would be just great if it weren't for those _other_ people who spoil our fun. I've spent a lot of time on trail access issues and believe me, the first opponent that needs to be recognised is the one within. That's not to say there isn't plenty of unfair, unjustified criticism of mountain biking, but if you're going to get anywhere in this argument, you need to look at yourself first.


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## Schwinng (Jan 21, 2004)

Hi, saddLLP.

As a rule, I don't speed unless I can clearly see far in front of me and I see a clear path. In terms of how I relate to equestrians, I *always* stop my bike and wait off to the side of ANY trail that I am on to give them the right of way as soon as I see them headed my way. I used to ride horses as a kid and have been on plenty of horses that can easily get spooked even from having newspaper being blown across the trail in front of them. I don't think that conditioning a horse to NOT get spooked is an easy or feasible thing to do, likely because this response seems to be hard-wired into their brains for self-preservation, e.g., avoiding dangerous predators.

More often than not, the equestrians I've come across sincerely thank me for my consideration and oftentimes inform me that I may continue riding past them; but, please do so at a modest speed, okay guys?

Cheeseboro (or "Chesebro") has some gorgeous mtn biking trails and we do need to share them respectfully *and* safely with equestrian and hikers.

'nuff said. Thanks for the reminder, saddLLP.

Herb


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

sunset1123 said:


> Point missed. What I was getting at was that mtbers really have no 'moral high ground' to speak of in this debate. Sure I don't have a great deal of contact with equestrian trail users, but what I have had has been decent. I could have listed a dozen incidents with mtbers unable/unwilling to show common courtesy or trail decorum to me while riding.
> 
> ... if they are public multi-use trails, no one has more 'right' to them than anyone else. I don't see how you can look down on people simply because they don't get out and do the same work you do. That kind of superiorist attitude of entitlement leads nowhere... would you have only trail crews be able to access the trails for recreation? How about only physically fit people?
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

saddLLP said:


> Hi Bikers,
> There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open. We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day. So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side. Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


Thank you saddLLP for opening dialogue in this forum. The group of riders I ride Mt. Bikes with, always yield to horses. Almost all of the Equestrian riders we have encountered are kind, and polite. Equal respect helps matters in any situation. Some of the Horses on Cheseboro, where I occasionally ride, have cow bells on their horses. This not only tells riders that horses are ahead, it is a good warning for us to slow down. I also have a bell on my bike, and ring it often, especially around blind corners. Riding Cheseboro one day with friends, one of my buddies, started shouting words of happiness, being out on the bike on such a magnificent day, then, out of no where, I see a rider and Horse, who screamed at us to "Shut the F#*K Up", twice! That wasn't really called for, and was rude, and showed that this Equestrian functions at a lower level than the rest of us. He was arrogant, and I guess other riders are familiar with this Equestrian. I think his horse is an Arabian, or Siberian? Something not seen everyday. We laughed, and thought, glad other Equestrians aren't like that guy. However, most people tend to take a bad experience and condemn the entire Equestrian community. I'm sure we have a few inconsiderate Mt. Bikers, but are we all bad, I think not. Some one should really tell that guy to Mello out though, or someone, who isn't calm, may do something violent. In the end, we all have to get along.


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## lonegunman88240 (Jul 31, 2009)

The demeanor of the person riding the horse has nothing to do with my taking issue with horses in a public setting. It is the nature of a horse that bothers me.

well its the nature of the intoxicated wannabe cowboys that bother the hell out of me!!! i doubt these idiots have anything to do with equistrians or horsemen, whatever you wanna call them, but we have been chased down and ran off trails by these trasspassers, i know they're trasspassing because the ranches we ride on are owned by family friends, and when we mentioned the incident they immediatly call the sheriffs who as always, can never find them, there is no reason why we should have to go ride trails armed but lately there is always someone in our group that carries now,


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## nitrousjunky (May 12, 2006)

First off, everyone that is saying poop isn't a health concern, is *WRONG*.
Just two years ago there were 2 different bikers that got sick after riding in DSF, here in NC. After lots of testing, the doctors proved that their illnesses was the result of bacteria from horse POOP. Both guys were using water bottles on their down tubes. They had ran through piles and it had been slung on the tip of the water bottles. Then they consumed it trying to get some water.

Secondly, We can all get along on multi-use trails, but it takes both sides being willing to do so. We do have our careless rude, bikers. However, 60-70% of the horse riders I have ran into have the "holier than thou" attitude. Have you noticed as pointed out earlier, the lack of willingness of the horse riders that have posted to see what can be done to improve the situation. The horse riders idea of trail work is trimming trees and bushes only, not actually repairing the trail or improving the trail. I'm sorry but I'm going to call Bull****, on no one realizing that poop on trails is a problem. I mean really, come on. I'm sorry my kids can't bunny hop piles that are longer than their bikes.

Before anyone ask. I am the front rider on our group rides 99% of the time. I slow around blind corners and I am expecting to meet a hiker, biker, or horse at all times. I always stop, move over, and ask before the horse rider gets to me if I need to dismount the bike. Even doing this you get the dirty looks and comments. We even had a woman yesterday come up to us at the trailhead and ask "are you guys going to ride the popular bike trail *********?" We answered yes, then she proceeded to inform us (very rudely) about how we needed to ride and what she expected us to do. I bit my tongue and rode off, because I knew if I responded to her it would have turned ugly. I have a bad taste in my mouth toward almost all horse back riders and it's going to take a lot of work to change that. I do however give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are the rare ones that are decent, that is an incorrect assumption most of the time.

I'm willing to work it out, but they have to step down off their "high horse" too.


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## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

*Horse Poop vs. Dog Poop*



Tuff Gong said:


> I have no problem stopping and talking to you folks (I always do) but would you please pick up the huge piles you leave in the middle of the trail. Thanks


I don't have a problem with Horse Poop, if I run over it, it just flakes off my tires. What I DO have a PROBLEM with is.....PEOPLE WHO DON'T Pick up DOG POOP. Right in the middle of the trail!!! :madmax: If it were off to the side, I would not have a problem. I have also crashed three times because IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS have their dogs off leash, and most times decide the dog decides to stop in front of my bike. One Endo, to avoid a puppy. Comon, puppy off leash, get a brain Dog Owner, Other two, owners just watch me, without calling their dog, fell side ways. I am a dog owner, and never have my dog off leash, unless in our back yard, dog park, or an area designated for off leash dogs. I have never crashed because of a Horse!


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## Agent-Boltron (Jul 3, 2009)

paddlepedal said:


> So what does a good trail horse usually retail for?


OMG HE IS A TRAITOR!!!!!


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

In deed...:ihih:


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

nitrousjunky said:


> First off, everyone that is saying poop isn't a health concern, is *WRONG*.
> Just two years ago there were 2 different bikers that got sick after riding in DSF, here in NC. After lots of testing, the doctors proved that their illnesses was the result of bacteria from horse POOP. Both guys were using water bottles on their down tubes. They had ran through piles and it had been slung on the tip of the water bottles. Then they consumed it trying to get some water.
> 
> Secondly, We can all get along on multi-use trails, but it takes both sides being willing to do so. We do have our careless rude, bikers. However, 60-70% of the horse riders I have ran into have the "holier than thou" attitude. Have you noticed as pointed out earlier, the lack of willingness of the horse riders that have posted to see what can be done to improve the situation. The horse riders idea of trail work is trimming trees and bushes only, not actually repairing the trail or improving the trail. I'm sorry but I'm going to call Bull****, on no one realizing that poop on trails is a problem. I mean really, come on. I'm sorry my kids can't bunny hop piles that are longer than their bikes.
> ...


Maybe if you weren't so biased we
would be more willing to work with you.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

I thought we weren't supposed to take you seriously anymore because you are only 15...


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## Andythebear (Jun 19, 2009)

OK, my two cents. This is obviously a huge issue, even bigger than I imagined. Here on the North Shore of Massachusetts, we share many of the trails with horses and hikers. On those multi-user trails, I bump into people on horses, hikers, birdwatchers, and even perverts. (Go right ahead and run the perverts over) I know mountain bikers who hate “The Horsies”. I know Horsies that hate mountain bikers. I’ve encountered Horsies who are stuck up, arrogant, and self entitled to anything within the reach of their eyesight and grasp. I’ve encountered mountain bikers who are ignorant, careless, and treat the trails like their own personal toilet bowl. Conversely, I personally know and have met Horsies and mountain bikers who are intelligent, friendly, and tolerant of others.

The bottom line here is that you can have an A-hole take the form of a Horsie or a mountain biker, or even a birdwatcher on any given day. That is why it is hard for me to take a hard stance and decry that all Horsies are A-holes. What’s the difference between that and racism? One of the first posters on this thread commented that it’s not his problem if the rider can’t control his/her horse. Even the most highly trained horse can freak out with a mountain biker flying by only feet away, possibly causing serious harm to the rider. They have the right to be there, just like us. How would we like it if they always galloped over us like Olympic trial jumps? So why can’t it just be considered good manners and a safety precaution to slow down or stop for a quick moment when encountering someone on a horse? 

Just because some horse people are A-holes, it doesn’t mean that they all are. And as many have pointed out already, you have to keep in mind that many horse owners are wealthy and have the political wherewithal to pose big problems for us mountain bikers. We are cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we don’t mind our behavior when encountering them on the trail. We have to coexist with them or we’re going to see the trail review list on MTBR shrinking. 

Personally, when I encounter horses, I do stop, talk to the rider, and ask how they want me to proceed. EVERY time I do this, I get a very friendly response and have a nice quick interaction with the rider. I don't look at it as I'm a peasant letting someone else tell me what to do, I'm simply giving another human being the consideration that I would want if I was sitting on an animal that could throw me to the ground. 

Just because some punk in a black BMW gave me the finger this morning, it doesn’t meant that I’m going to hate every up and coming wanna-be yuppie puke that needs a status car to make up for something that is missing in the….oh, that’s for another forum.


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

^ Excellent post Andy


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Really? I call that stating the obvious.

Everything you said is a given. Sort of falls under the overall rule "Don't be a dick".

Hey MTBers! Don't be a dick!

That should solve all trail interaction problems. If people are going to be dicks anyway then all the long winded father-son talks you can muster probably aren't going to help.

And if people are on here becuace they feel they have the right to be rude to horses than they are beyond reason and you should stop trying.

Horse people and mountain bike people being rude is an afterthought to the nature of the vehicles we ride. Being rude to a police officer doesn't change whether or not you broke the law even if it affects the outcome of the situation.

The fact that you can't take a stance on the issue because people on both sides have been rude to you at some point (or that you grasp the concept of rudeness) is just childish and further misses the point.

Myself, I will continue to hate people who cut me off and give me the finger. What I don't hate are BMWs.

So, in summary. Don't be a dick. And horses are still dangerous and cause more trail damage no matter how nice the rider may be.

_And they should clean up their poop_


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## lyndonchen (Nov 8, 2007)

MisterC said:


> So, in summary. Don't be a dick. And horses are still dangerous and cause more trail damage no matter how nice the rider may be.


Follow your own advice. As far as horses being dangerous, read post #269. Again and again, until it sinks in.



MisterC said:


> _And they should clean up their poop_


Well yeah, that'd be nice. And do more trail maintenance. Any ideas on how to make that happen, other than castigating them on mtb boards?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

KevinK said:


> I don't have a problem with Horse Poop, if I run over it, it just flakes off my tires. What I DO have a PROBLEM with is.....PEOPLE WHO DON'T Pick up DOG POOP. Right in the middle of the trail!!! :madmax: If it were off to the side, I would not have a problem. I have also crashed three times because IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS have their dogs off leash, and most times decide the dog decides to stop in front of my bike. One Endo, to avoid a puppy. Comon, puppy off leash, get a brain Dog Owner, Other two, owners just watch me, without calling their dog, fell side ways. I am a dog owner, and never have my dog off leash, unless in our back yard, dog park, or an area designated for off leash dogs. I have never crashed because of a Horse!


This is another excample of narrowmindedness. The fact that you can't see the correlation between dogs off their leashes and horses astounds me along with the fact that you are bothered by dog poop but not horse poop.

Surely you are not trying to assert that because horse poop doesn't bother you that it shouldn't bother me either. I'd like to think we can all agree that feces of any kind in our mouths is not acceptable.

A rider on a horse is like a 105 lb woman walking a 100 lb Great Dane. However well trained that dog may be and however hard that woman may be pulling on that leash. The dog is still walking her.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Your brilliant post # 269 means nothing. Just because there aren't stories of injuries doesn't mean that horses aren't dangerous. I know that horses are dangerous, in my own experience, because of the way riders react to me when I come upon them.

The rules and suggestions alone for how to deal with horses are indicitive of the danger they pose.

Do you think that weight limits on bridges are there becasue they drove bigger and bigger trucks over it until it collapsed?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Something that seems to be a reoccuring theme is that some people can't seem to fathom or consider that horses might have a negative net impact. There's the issue of the lack of control, there's the issue of them not caring about pooping on the trail, there's the issue about trail maint, there's the issue about trail damage. I'm not saying that everything about mountain bikes is positive, in fact very few trails are indefinitely maintenance-free, and those that seem that way probably do so due to very little consistant use. On the other hand, horses have very negative impacts, in many ways. I think that's what's causing a lot of our frustration on this subject. The Equestrians feel it's their right to have equal access and that everything has to "balance out", but I feel differently. Constituting a hazard for other people, causing excessive damage, causing excessive horse-crap, and not participating in trail-maintenance is not ok for the trail or the other trail users. One could even argue that due to these issues, they would have to do MUCH more work than a mountain biker to make it even close to being "equal", but the whole premise is flawed IMO. We had logging trucks back in Northern Caifornia that we had to ban from certain roads. They tore the crap out of some of the mountain roads, they went WAY too fast around the corners, they constituted a hazard for the other users and of course their logging companies weren't comming out and rebuilding the roads. I'm not saying horses should be banned, but this whole thing about it "having to be equal" doesn't really make sense to me, and I believe they have a very negative net impact, much more than any other user, with the exception of very heavy motorcycle use.


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## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

*Distorted perceptions*



MisterC said:


> This is another excample of narrowmindedness. The fact that you can't see the correlation between dogs off their leashes and horses astounds me along with the fact that you are bothered by dog poop but not horse poop.
> 
> Surely you are not trying to assert that because horse poop doesn't bother you that it shouldn't bother me either. I'd like to think we can all agree that feces of any kind in our mouths is not acceptable.
> 
> A rider on a horse is like a 105 lb woman walking a 100 lb Great Dane. However well trained that dog may be and however hard that woman may be pulling on that leash. The dog is still walking her.


WOW!!! Not trying to assert anything to anybody, just sharing my OWN thoughts in this matter. What you think and do, should be yours, and yours alone, making assumptions anytime you read another's thoughts, thinking it always relates to you is a bit egocentric, but hey, it's an open forum, and you can gather what ever you want from anything you want to read.
Do I like Horse Poop, No, Does it make me want to stop riding? NO! FOR ME, Horse poop is still bothersome, but, it doesn't have the same consistency as Dog Poop, if I run over Dog Poop, it sticks to my tire like glue, and even after a long ride, it's still there. I have to hose it off to remove dog poop. Never had to do that with Horse Poop.

Maybe it's were I ride, but, the ratio between Dogs and Horses is 100 to 1. Every 100 dogs I see, or come across on the trail, I run into 1 horse. I do ride Chesebro, Caballero, Sycamore, Sullivan often, and rarely run into horses, so, my frustration is understandable toward off leash dogs, as compared to the 1 horse I see in two months. Having said that, When it comes to trail damage, Horses cause the most damage, compared to riders, hikers and Canines. It can also cause a major damage if a rider and horse collide. Yes, an irresponsible Horse owner, who doesn't have the training, and the horse doesn't have the proper training is extremely dangerous. They should be held accountable if an accident where to occur. Same as dog owners, although, the three crashes I've had because of dogs, the owners didn't say anything, in terms of regret, I had to say, " Dogs on this trail are required to have Leases". The three people uttered profanity, so I just rode off. I just have to Co-exist with everyone on the trails. NOT YOU, I said, "ME".


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Right but does dog poop make you want to stop riding either? No it makes you want dog owners to take responsibility for themselves. Same with all trail users.

But what you end up with is a rule/law that punishes people for failing to do so.

That's what we are asking for, in a practical sense. Horses on the trail but subject to rules and guidelines that are punishable if ignored and make sense according to the basic rules of decency and safety we all live by. Something for us to point to and say, "See, not OK."


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## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

MisterC said:


> Right but does dog poop make you want to stop riding either? No it makes you want dog owners to take responsibility for themselves. Same with all trail users.
> 
> But what you end up with is a rule/law that punishes people for failing to do so.
> 
> That's what we are asking for, in a practical sense. Horses on the trail but subject to rules and guidelines that are punishable if ignored and make sense according to the basic rules of decency and safety we all live by. Something for us to point to and say, "See, not OK."


I agree with you 100%. It's everyone's responsibility to follow the rules of the trail, and if these rules are broken, the penalty should be severe.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

I’d just like to say that I think Jayem’s posts have been absolutely 100% spot on in this thread.:thumbsup:


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Curmy said:


> It is not our fault that their favorite toys are dangerous. If they can not train them, there are private lands for them to play.
> 
> Are you too dumb to get it? Apparently you are.


I guess you are illiterate? Multi use trail rules... bicyclists must yield to hikers and equestrians. What part of "yield" escapes your thought process? If you can't or won't follow the rules, and yield to these dangerous beasts, or follow the safety rules put in place for all the multiusers benefit and well being, don't ride there. It's that simple. It is amazing how none of these problems existed on trails until mountain bikers showed up, which really points to the root cause of the problem... vehicles and people on foot or on animals don't mix or play well together. Care to guess which group will be first to be banned? :skep:


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Jayem said:


> I'm not saying horses should be banned, but this whole thing about it "having to be equal" doesn't really make sense to me, and I believe they have a very negative net impact, much more than any other user, with the exception of very heavy motorcycle use.


Damn straight.

But I would definitely settle to "having to be equal" - that is restoring our right to access roads and trails in wilderness and national parks and local parks - anywhere where horses are allowed.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

RandyBoy said:


> I guess you are illiterate? Multi use trail rules... bicyclists must yield to hikers and equestrians. What part of "yield" escapes your thought process? If you can't or won't follow the rules, and yield to these dangerous beasts, or follow the safety rules put in place for all the multiusers benefit and well being, don't ride there. It's that simple. It is amazing how none of these problems existed on trails until mountain bikers showed up, which really points to the root cause of the problem... vehicles and people on foot or on animals don't mix or play well together. Care to guess which group will be first to be banned? :skep:


Sigh...why do I even bother?

Nothing about that escapes any of us. No one is saying we don't have to yield. No one is saying we don't have to follow the rules. The complaint is that equestrians have no rules of their own to follow regarding what is unique about their vehicles and how they hinder the experience of others on the trail.

The fact that we have to yield to horses is a testament to how cumbersome they are to maneuver on the trail as much as it is to how hazardous MTBs are.

I think its funny you defend the right of "dangerous beasts" to share the trails with small children having no lines drawn for anyone to use to avoid them even if they want to. If I wanted to walk my bengal tiger out on the trail are you going to defend my right to do so? And then defend my right to order you off the trail because you never know when he might take a swipe at someone?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> I guess you are illiterate? Multi use trail rules... bicyclists must yield to hikers and equestrians. What part of "yield" escapes your thought process? If you can't or won't follow the rules, and yield to these dangerous beasts, or follow the safety rules put in place for all the multiusers benefit and well being, don't ride there. It's that simple. It is amazing how none of these problems existed on trails until mountain bikers showed up, which really points to the root cause of the problem... vehicles and people on foot or on animals don't mix or play well together. Care to guess which group will be first to be banned? :skep:


What part of horses being a dangerous toy could not fit into your feeble mind?

Of course we need to yield. We are not suicidal. But do not make it sound that being subjected to dangerous toys is something that is inevitable.

Times change. Bicycles now are a safe and healthy alternative to horse travel.

And we did have a problem before bikes. The only dangerous encounter with a horse I have had was when some out of control idiot on a horse nearly run me and my children off a narrow trail in a park where no bicycles are allowed. Pretending that does not happen and only bikes are to blame is blatantly stupid.


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## Schwinng (Jan 21, 2004)

Some members' reactions to horse droppings suggests that they impede their ability to ride their trails, or at least ride them the way that they would like to? Luckily my encounters with horse droppings is rare - I only encounter a couple of piles here and there at the most during any given ride. For me, they're just obstacles that I have to finesse my way around. If I can't do that, then I'm either riding too fast or lack the requisite riding skills for doing so. What's the big deal? 

HOWEVER, if my experience was markedly different, where I would be hard pressed to find any stretch of trail NOT containing horse droppings, then I would likely feel more strongly about enforcing a rule for owners to clean up after their animals; and, this wouldn't just be for me as a mtn biker, but for all of the others who share the trails with us, i.e., runners/joggers, hikers, bird watchers, campers, etc. As a conscientious trail user, if my dog pooped on the trail, I'd have my plastic bags readily available to remove it. Perhaps it would be a good idea for equestrians to do likewise, out of consideration of all others who share the trails with them? 

As for trail etiquette, courtesy should always be exercised by everybody, or as another poster aptly said, "Don't be a dick," plain and simple. Mtn bikers should yield to everybody else -- I believe that's what I read at our local trailheads in So. California. Nobody should be traveling so fast on a trail that they cause anybody any apprehension. That's just plain rude and inconsiderate. Put yourself and your spouse and kids in that situation and it'd piss you off, too.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

KevinK said:


> I agree with you 100%. It's everyone's responsibility to follow the rules of the trail, and if these rules are broken, the penalty should be severe.


And as long as the rangers are there every 100 yards to enforce the "Rules" why not have them hand out fresh water?
In any altercation it is a "who you going to believe". better we police our own.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

LWright said:


> And as long as the rangers are there every 100 yards to enforce the "Rules" why not have them hand out fresh water?
> In any altercation it is a "who you going to believe". better we police our own.


It's about liability. We already know that park rangers can't enforce all kinds of rules. Doesn't mean they don't have them. Like riding after dark, a rule that is constantly broken on our trails, has minimal consequences to the park. But if you are caught, don't come crying to IMBA when you are ticketed or arrested.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

MisterC said:


> But if you are caught, don't come crying to IMBA when you are ticketed or arrested.


Mentioning the IMBA brings a question to mind. Do we have any national or state level organizations that speak for us on the subjects of trail access and horse damage to the trails?


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

RandyBoy said:


> I guess you are illiterate? Multi use trail rules... bicyclists must yield to hikers and equestrians. What part of "yield" escapes your thought process? If you can't or won't follow the rules, and yield to these dangerous beasts, or follow the safety rules put in place for all the multiusers benefit and well being, don't ride there. It's that simple. It is amazing how none of these problems existed on trails until mountain bikers showed up, which really points to the root cause of the problem... vehicles and people on foot or on animals don't mix or play well together. Care to guess which group will be first to be banned? :skep:


*applauds* well said.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

Flystagg said:


> I thought we weren't supposed to take you seriously anymore because you are only 15...


hm...so now you're taking orders from me now?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

That I do not know. Locally we have MORE. Mid-Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts and they speak for the community and are currently in a battle with residents and the Baltimore City (maybe county) government regarding land use. (hikers versus bikers, no horses involved, to my knowledge)

They are also participating in a grant where by volunteer hours are assigned a dollar value per hour which will be matched by a government grant to cut many new sections of trails and improve some old, worn out trails in Patapsco State Park by a professional trail builder.
(Yes, I go to these trail days, they are worth about 100 bucks per person. 5 hours work at 19 and change per hour is what I believe I was told)

MORE is awesome and another example of the right people trying to do the right things by the rules for the benefit of everyone.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Ravel said:


> hm...so now you're taking orders from me now?


Yup, from the Office of Redundancy Office.


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## Ravel (Aug 16, 2009)

MisterC said:


> Yup, from the Office of Redundancy Office.


ha sry. I'm in hyperventilation happy mode because Gerd Heuschmann looked twice at my horse today. GERD HEUSCHMANN. Enough said. 



I have been reduced into a bumbling idiot now.
...I'm being redundant again aren't I.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*This Photo Says a Lot!*

Here is a photo I took with my phone on a ride last March, in Sedona. Although it fails to address the ever-so-pertinent "Poop" issue, I think it documents rather well the issue of impacts to the tread of trails. Perhaps now people can see why I call them "hors-o-tillers". Not only do they plant non-native, invasive species, and fertilize them, they also till (tear) up the soil quite a bit, turning a nicely compacted trail surface into a deeply churned dust pit in only a few passes, and thus accelerating erosion faster than anything without a motor!

As for the "Poop" issue, I have dogs, who hike and bike with me, and on the rare occasion that they drop a load on the trail, I make sure to remove it so that other trail users (Or myself, on my next ride or hike) do not have to dodge it, and I don't think it unreasonable that equestrians should be required to do the same.

From 1994 to 2002, I owned and operated a bike shop in Southern Utah. During that time, I told every equestrian in the surrounding area that I met, that I would gladly assist them in familiarizing their beasts with bicycles, so as to keep them from freaking out, if they should encounter a biker on the trail. Out of all the dozens of people I spoke with about assisting them with this, over an 8 1/2 year period, only ONE equestrian ever took me up on my offer!

After seeing the general lack of commitment to training their beasts, and the subsequent skittish behavior of said beasts, I've often toyed with the idea of screaming "LOOK OUT!!!" when encountering a nervous horse on the trail, and then telling its lazy owner after they are thrown to the ground, "I saw that your horse was about to throw you, and I tried to warn you in time." So far, I've always resisted the temptation to do this, but the next time I encounter a condescending, arrogant or hostile equestrian, I may just have to give in to the urge...

As for the Wilderness issue, has anyone else ever noticed that a horse is a "Mechanized Vehicle"? If you don't think they are, try removing the mechanical parts, ie: the bit and bridle, the saddle and stirrups, and the tilling blades, er, I mean the horse shoes, and see how it is to ride an un-mechanized horse.

One final note: Why don't animal rights groups run an "End Animal Enslavement Now" campaign? It's not like horses are usually treated to lives of leisure, the way companion animals like cats and dogs are. Horses are usually cooped up in enclosures so small that they hardly can start running, before they have to slow down to avoid running into a fence or wall. And it's not like most people even need them to do work, like back in the old days, since we now have machines to do everything. The only reason that most people enslave horses nowadays, is so that they can force the dumb beasts to cart their lardasses around for said lardasses mere entertainment. In that regard, the enslavement of horses for entertainment purposes may even be worse in some ways than the enslavement of black people was, because they were at least enslaved to perform work, not just for some lazy putz's mere entertainment. I think these noble beasts should all be freed, and allowed to live out their lives roaming nature, as are other game animals. That way we could manage them through hunting, until we run out of fossil fuels, and can once again justify enslaving them for the purpose of making them work.


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

Like this one better...


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

Bike Doc said:


> One final note: Why don't animal rights groups run an "End Animal Enslavement Now" campaign? It's not like horses are usually treated to lives of leisure, the way companion animals like cats and dogs are. Horses are usually cooped up in enclosures so small that they hardly can start running, before they have to slow down to avoid running into a fence or wall. And it's not like most people even need them to do work, like back in the old days, since we now have machines to do everything. The only reason that most people enslave horses nowadays, is so that they can force the dumb beasts to cart their lardasses around for said lardasses mere entertainment. In that regard, the enslavement of horses for entertainment purposes may even be worse in some ways than the enslavement of black people was, because they were at least enslaved to perform work, not just for some lazy putz's mere entertainment. I think these noble beasts should all be freed, and allowed to live out their lives roaming nature, as are other game animals. That way we could manage them through hunting, until we run out of fossil fuels, and can once again justify enslaving them for the purpose of making them work.


I agree with much of your rant, invasive plant species, trail degredation and so on, but to lump all equestrians into the "recreational rider" pigeon hole is narrow-minded.
I'd much rather have the cattlemen and sheep ranchers ride horses than anything with an internal combustion engine for obvious reasons. That brings up another point, horses are the best method of search and rescue. They don't tear up the terrain as much as motos, they can cross more difficult terrain because the horse can negotiate brush, rocks and trees as well as balance it's self on angular terrain with little input from the rider, leaving them free to scan for the victim. They can fuel them selves on the natural vegitation for days. And finally, they are quiet. It's hard to hear a call for help over droning motors. Just because were upset with a few equestrians, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Right, ok, but those are not recreational settings. You may be right but much like a police car is not subject to the same rules that I am when it is responding to an emercgency, a rescue horse may be exempt from the kind of rules we would like enacted.

Cattlemen and Ranchers do not belong in state and national parks for the purposes of the their professions, yes? I don't know a whole lot about them or why they would need to be on recreational multi-use trails.


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## mergs (Feb 14, 2004)

saddLLP said:


> Hi Bikers,
> There is a lot of tension between the mountain biking community and the equestrian community and the fact is, all our trails are going to be closed if we don't learn to get along and band together to keep them open. We all like to ride fast at times. Nothing like being on my four-legged ride at a full gallop up and down some nasty trails. I am positive you feel the same way. However, there are those who just don't get the fact that doing this around a blind corner is a disaster for the three animate objects and probably your bike too if we all collide at full force. A man with his two young kids came careening around a blind corner at Cheseboro and if my husband's and my horse had not jumped sideways 10 feet in the air, and we had not stayed on, the paramedics would have had a bad day. So, please, if you are come up to a blind curve - especially if you see horse trailers in the parking lot, please know that a horse and rider are probably just on the other side. Just slow a little and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE! The absolute worst thing you can do is think you can get by a horse without him seeing you. They are flight creatures and see almost 360, with the exception of a fist size spot between their eyes. They can cow-kick you off your bike - they are precise - without so much as a missed step. Anytime you see a horse and rider, slow down and talk. They need to hear a voice to know you are human. If we see you, we will stop and let you pass. Just give us a minute to get the horse's rear end away from your head, okay???? We all have the same idea of fun, we just ride different vehicles. Thanks! Happy trails, SaddLLP


Hi saddLLP,

I appreciate the post. When the different trail users can understand and empathize with each others needs and wants on trail, we can all be more courteous and ultimately happier trail users. Its good to see the equestrian side of the picture too because many of us do not ride horses. However, IMBA makes equestrian awareness a part of their Trail Care Crew training so we do get some exposure to it, and the president of our organization also owns horses (and rides both bicycles and a four legged beast named Hezzie  ) so we're lucky here in NJ that relations are fairly good between our user groups.

That said, I don't want you to get discouraged by the flame replies here. Unfortunately the anonymous nature of forums tend to bring out the internet tough guys in many of us. Most mtb'ers are going to be good trail users and I suspect a good number of us took your post as it was meant: just a friendly, "hey folks this is how we see things from our side of the saddle and I'd just like to ask that we all take it easy on blind corners and practice respect to one another."

Mtber's: as an advocate here in NJ who's job it is to reach out to other trail users, and where parks are heavily used and at times are really hot and contentious, I see no merit in flaming this guy. He was trying to reach out and many of smacked and a hand held out in friendship. Pretty sad... really.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

I'd also like to know if equestrians have organizations like IMBA and MORE and what their goals are?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

mergs said:


> Hi saddLLP,
> 
> I appreciate the post. When the different trail users can understand and empathize with each others needs and wants on trail, we can all be more courteous and ultimately happier trail users. Its good to see the equestrian side of the picture too because many of us do not ride horses. However, IMBA makes equestrian awareness a part of their Trail Care Crew training so we do get some exposure to it, and the president of our organization also owns horses (and rides both bicycles and a four legged beast named Hezzie  ) so we're lucky here in NJ that relations are fairly good between our user groups.
> 
> ...


That was a very nice job of neglecting all of the legitimate questions posed in this thread.


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## mergs (Feb 14, 2004)

MisterC said:


> That was a very nice job of neglecting all of the legitimate questions posed in this thread.


Nonsense...I'm not going to get into a debate about poo and trail user impact of horses vs. mtb.

The person that started the thread was trying to reach out to us, in a freindly way, and people jumped on him like flies on poo, and flamed his ass. If you read only his original post and ignore the rest the point I made is valid.

If you want to debate poo, equestrian impact on trails, etc. this is debated elsewhere quite well. There was no reason to tackle this guy online like this when he was simply trying to give us a heads up.

when you spend time advocating mountain biking as a part time job and you see all the tactics used against us by hikers for the past 2o years, you start to get a sense of when we're being the whiney *****es and the hypocrites. (I say this because I've been on the sharp end of this from the hiking community).

there are no perfect trail users, we all suck at times, but we can all try and get along and respect each other. there is a lack of that here. and its sad.

my intention was to reach back out to him so that he understands that we can come to a common understanding and respect each other on trail. and that the flaming here should not be construed as *the mtb community*. because it ain't.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Well I'm pretty sure your post is about the 20th iteration in this 350+ post thread. But I'm sure the OP appreciates it...if they are even still following it.

As soon as I read the OP I assumed troll anyway but hey, take seriously who you please.

As for being "perfect trail users", nobody is making the claim that mountain bikers are perfect in any way but the OP was reachingout to us by telling us what we need to do because of an encounter they claim to have had with a guy and his two kids while holding no expectations for themselves.

So when we respond with "Ok, fine, we will do this but hey, how about you do some of this stuff that really bothers us or is dangerous on multi-use trails" and we hear crickets its a little insulting.

Again, flying at full speed around a blind corner is stupid and I weep for the fact that someone being told this might actually alter their behavior. If we don't already grasp this concept then maybe we need to start licensing mountain bikers. That's like telling road bikers not to ride ont he wrong side of the road.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

mergs said:


> Nonsense...I'm not going to get into a debate about poo and trail user impact of horses vs. mtb.


Nonsense... Really??? 
I don't want to debate these facts, I just want to know if JORBA, IMBA or any of the MTB organizations are using these facts on our behalf.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Nonsense... Really???
> I don't want to debate these facts, I just want to know if JORBA, IMBA or any of the MTB organizations are using these facts on our behalf.


So why don't you contact them?


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

snowdrifter said:


> So why don't you contact them?


Good idea. Everyone should contact them.


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

MisterC said:


> Right, ok, but those are not recreational settings. You may be right but much like a police car is not subject to the same rules that I am when it is responding to an emercgency, a rescue horse may be exempt from the kind of rules we would like enacted.
> 
> Cattlemen and Ranchers do not belong in state and national parks for the purposes of the their professions, yes? I don't know a whole lot about them or why they would need to be on recreational multi-use trails.


I believe our access to national parks is still denied, but under "review", and that review is another reason I'm glad usfs saw fit to reclassify us into the horsy, hiker category. Without that reclassification there would be no review.
Here in the rocky mountain states many of our trails are in national forests and on BLM land, both of which allow grazing of cattle and sheep. As a rule these folks don't carry the attitude, that is, untill they are disrespected by our lack of trail etiquette. You won't here these folks griping about how much trail damage we do, but like any of us, mutual respect is high on their list. Granted they may spend the bulk of their time off trail, but trails are the easiest way to get to and from mountain pastures where their herds graze, and these people make up the bulk of S&R riders out here due to their skills.
You think affluential recreational riders have pull, wait untill the people who supply the US with beef get involved.

_I'd love to be the fly on the wall when some suit tries to inform a group of cattlemen the'll have to "diaper" their horses when they hit the trail._ 

For those of you who have a problem with horse poop, ride a trail during or after a herd has come through. You'll see more cow-pies or sheep-dip in 100ft then you urban types see horse poop all season, on all of your trails. For many of us out here, horse poop's just another trail feature, and it requires less skill to "clean" then a 1/4 mile of cow-pies. :thumbsup:


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Shelbak73 said:


> I believe our access to national parks is still denied, but under "review", and that review is another reason I'm glad usfs saw fit to reclassify us into the horsy, hiker category. Without that reclassification there would be no review.
> Here in the rocky mountain states many of our trails are in national forests and on BLM land, both of which allow grazing of cattle and sheep. As a rule these folks don't carry the attitude, that is, untill they are disrespected by our lack of trail etiquette. You won't here these folks griping about how much trail damage we do, but like any of us, mutual respect is high on their list. Granted they may spend the bulk of their time off trail, but trails are the easiest way to get to and from mountain pastures where their herds graze, and these people make up the bulk of S&R riders out here due to their skills.
> You think affluential recreational riders have pull, wait untill the people who supply the US with beef get involved.
> 
> ...


AH yes, the age old grazing on "public" forest land paid for by our tax dollars while speading giardia and grazing/trampling all leafy grass areas and turning streams into shiite infested mud-holes. This is allowed to continue while four-wheelers have been locked out of many old trails or restricted so much due to "erosion" that it is no longer fun to even four wheel there anymore. This is a fine example of big money lobbies doing what is in the interest of the minority. :madmax: These cattlemen also cut private land owners' fences and drive livestock through while threatening land owners....been there and seen it first-hand when the private land owners had to arm themselves and drive off the cattlemen....it was kinda scary and rather like an old-time western movie.


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## Craptasticycle (May 29, 2008)

control your horses 

http://dirttreaders.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3120


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Why do I have to be responsible for the lack of control you have over your animal? I can control my bike just fine and it's never spooked or tried to trample other trail users.
> 
> If you're out there on a horse it's YOUR responsibility to ensure they are calm around bicycles. You are endangering other trail users if you're out there on an animal that you can't control. If you are unsure about your animal it doesn't belong out there on the trails.
> 
> ...


Jayem, you ignorant ****.

No matter how well you train a horse, it is still an animal. Multi-use trails are for the use by all and we all have to make accomodations. That means that when you encounter a horse, no matter how distasteful it is to your holier-than-thou 100% perfect riding ability, the law of gross tonnage still applies and you lose should you choose not to play well with others (from the tone of your posts, that sounds like a foregone conclusion).

The OP was trying to reach out in a friendly manner and you opted to perpetuate the inconsiderate, impolite, juvenille mountain biker stereotype rather than engaging in dialoge. No wonder we get nowhere in advocacy... any good action is immediately negated by reactions and attitudes by those displayed here.

In my experience, 99% of equistrians and 95% of hikers are courtieous and typically let me have the trail rather than claiming their right of way. Depending on my ride, I try and chat with all of them.

Mountain bikers, on the other hand are probably about 80% in respecting standard trail etiquette. I wouldn't want to meet jayem if I was pedaling up and he was pedaling down... I'm sure his ownership of the trail and my inferior climbing ability would require me to yield the trail to him coming down. But I'm guessing the law of gross tonnage would be in my favor again... and I'd use it!


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## Shelbak73 (Nov 10, 2007)

Natedogz said:


> *#1. *AH yes, the age old grazing on "public" forest land paid for by our tax dollars.......snip]
> 
> *#2.*[ This is a fine example of big money lobbies doing what is in the interest of the minority.]
> 
> *#3.*[These cattlemen also cut private land owners' fences and drive livestock through while threatening land owners....been there and seen it first-hand when the private land owners had to arm themselves and drive off the cattlemen....it was kinda scary and rather like an old-time western movie.


*#1.* Age old is right, and the topic of many a thread, but not this one.

*#2.* And exactly the reason I added the comment about recreational equestrians vs cattle ranchers. The rules you write for one will apply to the other. Simple solution: cut off their money, stop eating beef! 

*#3.* Someone get John Wayne on the phone, oh yea, right. Ok, Gregory Peck..ah..right...right. Zorro? Lone Ranger? Batman? Who takes care of these things these days?


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

skiahh said:


> Jayem, you ignorant ****.
> 
> No matter how well you train a horse, it is still an animal. Multi-use trails are for the use by all and we all have to make accomodations. That means that when you encounter a horse, no matter how distasteful it is to your holier-than-thou 100% perfect riding ability, the law of gross tonnage still applies and you lose should you choose not to play well with others (from the tone of your posts, that sounds like a foregone conclusion).
> 
> ...


90% of all statistics are completely made up.

And you conveniently ignore trail damage and horse poo

But it was nice to hear you stroke yourself for a few paragraphs. Probably burned some serious calories.

The OPs approach was backhanded. I don't like being talked down to, especially when there is no conversation to follow up. So, if that's what you call friendly, then I hope I never work for you.

Nobody is complaining about having to yield to horses. We don't think they should be allowed on multiuse trails. These are two different things.

You aren't exactly a pillar of manners yourself, sir. Good thing this is the internet so I don't have to worry about your gross tonnage.


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

skiahh said:


> Jayem, you ignorant ****.
> 
> No matter how well you train a horse, it is still an animal. Multi-use trails are for the use by all and we all have to make accomodations. That means that when you encounter a horse, no matter how distasteful it is to your holier-than-thou 100% perfect riding ability, the law of gross tonnage still applies and you lose should you choose not to play well with others (from the tone of your posts, that sounds like a foregone conclusion).
> 
> ...


wow. that was a lame post. talk about juvenile mountain bike stereotype - you sir fit the bill.


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## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

when you get done reading this post, go join IMBA and donate to keep and improve mountain bike trail access. they are fighting the good fight. then find your local trail organization and start working on trails. the only way to force more responsible trail use by equestrians is to take control of the trails. push for trail closures when wet. push for horse diapers. push for fees for equestrians.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

MisterC said:


> And you conveniently ignore trail damage and horse poo


Yes, I was commenting on jayem's approach to his response. I agree with the poo discussions, for what it's worth.



MisterC said:


> But it was nice to hear you stroke yourself for a few paragraphs.


If you consider calling myself slow and fat stroking myself, then you and I have very different perspectives.



MisterC said:


> I hope I never work for you.


That makes two of us.


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## cocavaak (Apr 24, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Why do I have to be responsible for the lack of control you have over your animal? I can control my bike just fine and it's never spooked or tried to trample other trail users.
> 
> Maybe this is comming off a little harsh, as I said I meet a lot of equestrians that seem to be nice people, but answer me this: Have you ridden bikes around your horse to familiarize them for the mutli-use trails you are evidently riding?


Yes that is way too harsh and you apparently don't understand where the OP is coming from. Forget for one moment that they are on a horse and replace it with hiker. Or even another mtn biker. The point is that idiots who fly around blind corners will be involved in an accident at some point. That is all.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Reasons why MTBs work better than horses:
1. mtbs are about 4% of the weight of a horse, easier to clear obstacles and generally transport

2. MTBs have powerful braking systems, for horses all you can do is pull on their faces to slow em down

3. you dont need a barn to store a bike and you dont need a grazing field to feed one

4. If you blow a tire you dont have to shoot your bike

5. bikes dont eat drink or poo, nor do they get sick or die

6. MTB riders build their hearts, lungs and legs whle riding, equestrians bounce up and down on thier keesters on top of a hot sweaty horse while it is doing the work and strengthening its heart, lungs and legs

7..... further can you imagine an event like red bull rampage being done on horses ?? envision that ..... now thats funny

8. Finally, MTBs didnt kill Superman :madmax:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

skiahh said:


> Jayem, you ignorant ****.
> 
> No matter how well you train a horse, it is still an animal. Multi-use trails are for the use by all and we all have to make accomodations. That means that when you encounter a horse, no matter how distasteful it is to your holier-than-thou 100% perfect riding ability, the law of gross tonnage still applies and you lose should you choose not to play well with others (from the tone of your posts, that sounds like a foregone conclusion).
> 
> ...


Nice of you to center on my disdain of horses and completely ignore the parts where I said I am more than willing to follow the current rules of the trail. It's easier for you to make me out this way I suppose, but you completely missed the point.

The point is that even when we follow the rules, there is still a hazard to us and other trail users, possibly an unreasonable hazard, not to mention the unreasonable damage and other effects of equestrian trail usage. Multi-use means every trail user needs to be responsible. Your attitude (since you seemed so willing to define my attitude) seems to include the view that other trail users should just accept that equestrians aren't responsible (for erosion, for cleaning up after their horses, for training their horses, etc). As you seem so eager to point out, responsibility goes both ways. We as mountain bikers learn the rules, we encounter hikers and horses. We clean up after ourselves. We don't leave piles of crap on the trail. We don't destroy the trail (to any comparable extent). We ride bikes capable of stopping quickly. And so on....

The answer to the hypothetical (and in a few cases so far "direct") question regarding equestrians "training" their horses to get used to bikes seems to be pretty consistant. Pretty sad really considering how much effort we as educated mountain bikers make to be responsible trail users.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Horses can be trained...*

I went to a circus once, and saw horses trained to jump through flaming hoops. Talk about something that spooks most untrained horses, FIRE will get most any untrained horse worked into a frenzy, real quick. And yet the horses I saw at the circus seemed oblivious to it. This showed me that these dumb beasts can be trained to ignore and disregard things that would normally spook a horse in its natural state of ignorance. By familiarizing horses gradually and frequently with bikes and bikers, it is possible to train them to not be spooked by even a fast approaching bike, that is skidding to a stop right in front of it. Since this is possible, yet the vast majority of equestrians fail to even try doing even the slightest bit of anti-anxiety training for their dumb beasts, I just don't see it as being a biker's responsibility to drastically alter their behavior and actions, in order to try to make up for these lazy lardasses lack of responsibility. The piles of poop and the excessive amounts of damage to the tread of most trails they venture out on, just add insult to the very real possibility of injury.

END ANIMAL ENSLAVEMENT NOW!!! These magnificent and noble beasts should all be set free and allowed to roam wild, in their natural environment, as other big game animals, such as elk, moose and caribou are allowed. Their numbers and impacts could then be managed, through the number of hunting permits issued each year. Archery season, anyone? It looks like there's enough meat on one of these beasts to feed my family (including my dogs) for at least a year!


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## lonegunman88240 (Jul 31, 2009)

Amen Brother!!! Amen!!!!


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Bike Doc said:


> Here is a photo...


Now that is a jolly good pic. Right-o, pink flamingo.


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## mergs (Feb 14, 2004)

Noobi-Wan Kenobi said:


> Nonsense... Really???
> I don't want to debate these facts, I just want to know if JORBA, IMBA or any of the MTB organizations are using these facts on our behalf.


Of course we do, we (and IMBA) do it all the time. However, to get respect you have to give respect... and that means sometimes you need to reach out and work with other user groups, not just advocate your own user group at the expense of all others. This is what rabid anti-bike hiking groups do to us, and I don't want to be a hypocrite like them, So, it upsets me to see our fellow riders to verbally stomp on someone when they try to reach out to us and try to give us a heads up when we can do better.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Maybe not all horse encounters are bad, but here's my encounter-of-the-week from yesterday;

I look off the trail to the right and see something moving about 50-100 feet away. Oh, it's a couple horse-enslavers, and they're not riding on a trail, just taking a shortcut to the staging area from the trail. The trail is screwed up as well, as the horseshoes dig up some of the trail with each hoove-step. This area is pretty sandy, and while bikes and hikers tend to "pack" the trail, this is essentially the complete opposite effect.

I'm sure there are nice people on horses, I've met quite a few of them, but I see every aspect of their trail use as negative in terms of impact, extent and hazards to other people.


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## Noobi-Wan Kenobi (Dec 24, 2007)

mergs said:


> Of course we do, we (and IMBA) do it all the time. However, to get respect you have to give respect... and that means sometimes you need to reach out and work with other user groups, not just advocate your own user group at the expense of all others. This is what rabid anti-bike hiking groups do to us, and I don't want to be a hypocrite like them, So, it upsets me to see our fellow riders to verbally stomp on someone when they try to reach out to us and try to give us a heads up when we can do better.


I understand the "politics" of working with other groups, but sometimes we have to be more proactive and *defend* ourselves. It seems like we are doing all the giving, and not getting much respect back from either the hikers or the equestrians.

I think your "verbally stomp" is a little over the top.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

mergs said:


> This is what rabid anti-bike hiking groups do to us, and I don't want to be a hypocrite like them, So, it upsets me to see our fellow riders to verbally stomp on someone when they try to reach out to us and try to give us a heads up when we can do better.


So far rabid anti-bike groups have had some considerable success, so maybe that is a practical tactic to follow.

Each year we are loosing trails to incompetent land managers in the pocket of cattle ranchers and equestrian lobbyist and to "wilderness", that still allows horses to destroy trails.

We have the logic and the numbers on our side - maybe it is a good time to assert cycling a legitimate low impact recreational use of ALL of our land?


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## HTR4EVR (Jun 15, 2007)

I think the only way we are going to get respect is supporting local social issues. Like a bike rally against drugs or children abuse. We need to get out of our comfort zone and be out there. LBSs and local cycling organization can do a lot for the community and maybe some are doing it. We need a more holistic approach..


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## Trail Traveler (Mar 10, 2009)

The time for "playing nice" has long past. Other user groups are aggressively fighting to have our access taken away. We need to be equally aggressive in our fight to preserve it.


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)

Trail Traveler said:


> The time for "playing nice" has long past. Other user groups are aggressively fighting to have our access taken away. We need to be equally aggressive in our fight to preserve it.


i agree, lets fight to get rid of all the horse riders and mall cops and city central cops when we play in the urban jungle...

***they are all animals


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## StarXed (Aug 5, 2008)

Toddski said:


> Here's my horse encounter story from last weekend - Bear Brook, NH.
> 
> I'm first in the group of riders. Come flying down the trail, super dense foliage, rocky rooty single track &#8230;trail not suitable for horses. So I'm shocked to see the 3 equestrians coming our way as I fly around a corner, but do stop a good 15 feet in front of them, everybody stops behind me as I give a warning, we dismount and stand to the side of this incredible tight trail. I say hello to the horse, First horse is FREAKING OUT, second horse is FREAKING out, third horse is FREAKING out. But we are all stopped and on the side of the trail off the bikes. The fist equestrian cannot get her horse to move forward as it's stomping its hooves. I decide to talk to the horse in a friendly tone and let him know that I'm not a horse eating alien. This seems to work (kind of )and the first horse reluctantly stomps half kicking by us up the trail. Second horse, again it won't respond to its rider's commands, so I start up again in a soft tone. "it's ok horsy, come on, let's go." And this is the part that pisses me off- the second equestrian says to me- quote "SHUT UP, my horse has never seen bikers before this is her first time out!" Now at this point I really wanted to get into a open dialogue about her I.Q. level and explain to her that where they were heading was not suitable for horses&#8230; also wanted to state that they were on a popular BIKING trail and they would encounter other riders in worse terrain as they further on, basically tell her that they should stop playing Louis& Clark and turn around!&#8230;.. but the horse was really freaking out, there was nowhere for us to go, I did care about the rider's safety&#8230; so I kept my mouth shut, stepped into the pucker brushes as far as I could go, used my bike as a shield for the kicking massive beast that finally went galloping by on his own terms. Third horse again went running by us with the half kicks, it was kind of scary, since the previous year I witnessed a horse actually go after and kick other biker as he stood to the far side (on a jeep road), the horses foot got caught up on the bike, and then the horse proceeded to stomp into the woods with bike still attached!, it was crazy!
> 
> so yeah anyways... I just thought a would share my recent horse encounter.


This is exactly the problem. There are places where horses and bikes are allowed that are simply not suitable for horses. I imagine in the more open areas out west that the trails can accommodate both beast and machine, but it is not like that almost anywhere on the east coast. The local trails that allow horses here in NoVA are DESTROYED by the horse traffic...and the only ones that are in any kind of shape are the ones that the Mountain Bike clubs have stepped up to rebuild/mantain.

The way I see it, horses are pets, and the rules about cleaning up after them need to be enforced. If you're riding your 1000lb rideable dog on public trails then you had best have a goddamn shovel strapped to your back or saddle. Because its not enough that I have to narrowly avoid slipping over the edge of a trail because the horseshoe holes have channel enough water to erode the lip of the trail only to land in a pile of filth at the bottom of the descent that kicks up onto my waterbottle and ruins my water supply.

And of course there is the issue of control. Im sorry...but you wouldn't walk your Great Dane/Rottweiler mix on a retractable leash on a public trail when it has a history of not liking other people/dogs and when you KNOW you are going to encounter other people/dogs. If you did and it overpowered you YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE, not the other person for being on the trail. If you know that horses are flighty and cannot be trained to NOT be flighty then common sense would dictate that you DO NOT RIDE YOUR HORSE SOMEPLACE WHERE IT MIGHT GET SPOOKED BY PEOPLE USING A MULTIUSE TRAIL.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

The trouble is that people, and I mean people in general just, in this case, horse people, will not be swayed by logic or reason when it stands to take away something they have and want.

There isn't a good argument for what the horse community wants regarding multi use trails. Which is to say, they want things to stay the same. The only complaint as far as I can tell is that they want the trails to themselves. As far as their responsibilities, they have none.

In order for horses to exist in a multi-use setting other trail users must be held to a higher standard and the horse owners must be exempt from rules that others must follow.

And that makes other users mad.

Hikers may have a problem with MTBs on the trails but at least we have the same rules to follow as anyone else as well as a few specific to us and we are scrutinized under them.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

I also want to post this just to give any of the horse people an idea of the time and effort we put in to not only maintaining our trails but how hard MORE is working educate and inform.

I removed the e-mail addresses for obvious reasons.

MORE Announces Fall 2009 Trailwork Series

All the parks in our area rely heavily on volunteer efforts to maintain the trails. A few hours of work from you will ensure that your favorite trails stay open and fun for everyone. You can also learn about trail building and maintenance techniques, scope out new places to ride and meet fun people. Hours worked in the Spring and Fall series will count toward MORE's annual 20/25/25 Awards, which recognize those who put in over 20 hours of work and also support both MORE and the International Mountain Bike Association (IMBA) with their $25 membership dues. The 20-25-25 Awards include some great bike gear and discounts. Plus, you could be eligible to win a new frame or bike!

HOW? Bring work boots or sturdy shoes, work gloves (an old pair of cycling gloves will do), plenty of water, and lunch or a snack. MORE and local land managers will supply the tools, but feel free to bring your personal favorite (shovel, pick, metal rake, hand saw, etc.).

WHEN? Check the dates below for your favorite park or trail and mark your calendar NOW! Schedules are subject to change, please double-check the MORE website www.more-mtb.org for last-minute schedule changes. Unless otherwise noted, all workdays begin at 9:00 AM.

Saturday, September 12-Upper Rock Creek

Saturday, Sept 19th -Colt's Neck/CCT

Saturday, Sept 26th-Wakefield

Saturday, Sept 26th-Patapsco

Sunday, October 3rd-Greenbrier

Sunday, October 4th -Cabin John

Saturday, October 10th-Loch Raven

Saturday, October 10th-Hoyle's Mill

Saturday, October 10th-Laurel Hill

Saturday, October 17-Black Hill

Saturday and Sunday, October 17-18-Rosaryville

Sunday Oct 18th- Gambrill

Saturday, October 24th-Ft. DuPont

Saturday, October 25th-Schaeffer

Saturday, Oct 31st -- Lake Fairfax/Colt's Neck

Sunday, November 1st-Frederick Watershed

Saturday, November 7th-Fountainhead 9:30am start

Saturday, November 7th-Upper Rock Creek

Sunday, November 8th-Patapsco

Saturday November 14th Fairland

Saturday, November 14th--Greenbrier

Saturday, December 19th-Upper Rock Creek


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)




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## MrBreach (Aug 25, 2009)

LuMach said:


> Around here we have issues with the Horsey crowd actually working to get MTBers banned from a local public park, pretty ironic when they're the one's who show the least respect for the enviornment by damaging the trails more than anyone (sandy soil+horseshoes+1000lbs. animal = serious trail destruction) and disrespecting everyone by leaving huge piles of dung behind for others to deal with.


Exactly how it stands with our local community too


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## CraigE (Oct 1, 2008)

MisterC said:


> The trouble is that people, and I mean people in general just, in this case, horse people, will not be swayed by logic or reason when it stands to take away something they have and want.
> 
> There isn't a good argument for what the horse community wants regarding multi use trails. Which is to say, they want things to stay the same. The only complaint as far as I can tell is that they want the trails to themselves. As far as their responsibilities, they have none.
> 
> ...


Well said MisterC!


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## BreatholdiveRI (Aug 23, 2009)

Even though it isn't my highlight of a day of riding, I can avoid the horse crap that consumes many of the trails I ride. The thing that really gets me is when the equestrians use their horses to pull logs and trees across the trails so no one else can enjoy the trail. If I am hiking or biking, I shouldn't have to climb over or carry my bike over trees that were laid across the trail. I have had friends injured on singletrack because of people placing stuff in the middle of that the horses can easily step over but to a biker flying around the corner, could be deadly. I wouldn't even consider tying cable 2' above the trail to trip horses or put pungee sticks in the middle of the horse trails but what would the difference be? In my experience, equestrians just seem like snobs that want trails all to themselves. Of course all of "them" aren't like this but most of the ones I have come across are.


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

BreatholdiveRI said:


> In my experience, equestrians just seem like snobs that want trails all to themselves.


They do not "seem", they in fact are. Just attend any land management agency meeting.

They want to destroy trails in solitude and the rest of us have to foot the bill and stay home.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

I need to go to one of these things. I am just dying to know what they say when we bring up these points. I can't imagine it makes sense at all.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

We need to elect mountain bikers to positions of influence, county commisioners ,state reps , congress etc.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Apprently we had a president. Fat lot of good that did us.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*He wasn't really a mountain biker....*

That dumb sum***** wasn't a real mountain biker. He never came and rode with us here in Sedona during his entire eight years...


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## BreatholdiveRI (Aug 23, 2009)

Punkeyboozter said:


>


Man I got a kick out of this. Nice one!


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## c_rex (Aug 19, 2009)

I've ridden horses, cleaned their stalls, brushed and fed 'em because my family has had them. Personally I don't like the beasts very much. But I do respect them on the trail. I always slow down and sometimes stop for them. No way in hell am I going to make a lot of noise so they notice me. What are ya, new?
Look at the horse's behavior. Look at the RIDER'S behavior. If they are in synch you are golden. Take it easy and your encounter will be null. If they are having challenges with your presence- don't be a jerk. Nobody needs to get injured in the cohabitation of trail space. Exercise even a modicum of common sense and everyone will be just fine. This goes for the horse rider too btw.
FWIW- I'm not out there to enjoy nature, that's just a by-product. It's beautiful and all but make no mistake- Nature is coming for you. I've got my own reasons for being out there.


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## Punkeyboozter (Mar 31, 2009)

c_rex said:


> I've ridden horses, cleaned their stalls, brushed and fed 'em because my family has had them. Personally I don't like the beasts very much. But I do respect them on the trail. I always slow down and sometimes stop for them. No way in hell am I going to make a lot of noise so they notice me. What are ya, new?
> Look at the horse's behavior. Look at the RIDER'S behavior. If they are in synch you are golden. Take it easy and your encounter will be null. If they are having challenges with your presence- don't be a jerk. Nobody needs to get injured in the cohabitation of trail space. Exercise even a modicum of common sense and everyone will be just fine. This goes for the horse rider too btw.
> FWIW- I'm not out there to enjoy nature, that's just a by-product. It's beautiful and all but make no mistake- Nature is coming for you. I've got my own reasons for being out there.


smoking pod doesnt count.


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## MisterC (May 17, 2007)

Once the thread gets this long people just glance over it. His post addresses none of the real questions posed to equestrians.

Just more telling us what we need to do as if we don't already know.


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