# Official Belt Drive Q&A Thread



## Ike Turner (Dec 20, 2006)

I have found it difficult to consolidate information regarding Belt Drives. A Sgt. Joe Friday 'Just the facts' thread.

I have found it quite difficult finding anyone in a shop who wants to discuss anything in true detail that is not on the shop floor let anyone who has first hand knowledge with Mechanic ride experience. I have met no one here in SoCal who rides a belt. Even at the best shops in OC etc...

So I am going to throw out a number of questions that come to mind in hope of an objective discussion.

Besides Spot Brand and the new Norco Judan, are there other MFGs who make a Belt specific Frame? http://www.norco.com/bikes/mountain/29er/judan-belt/ http://www.spotbikes.com/

Is the "split" between the stays on these frames problematic? (loosening; stiffness)

Is belt tension different than traditional chain drives? Is there one tension(ing) system better than the other or are they all the same?

Are the belts suitable for Clyde's like me who ride a big frame and push hard and create big load climbing? Does frame flex push the belt off drive?

Is Gates the only carbon Belt MFG? http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/ And do they OEM all the Production bikes

What is the longevity?

I think I have figured out that the sprockets are designed to fit hubs and crank arms alike...and that the belt itself requires bigger rings front and rear in general.

Thanks up front here for the input.

Regards

IT


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

I will try to answer some of you questions, we work on a customers Spot Longboard at our shop and I just built up my custom belt drive and a few rides on it myself

Besides Spot Brand and the new Norco Judan, are there other MFGs who make a Belt specific Frame? not too many off road bikes, Raleigh and Specialized make belt drive commuters, Ventanna's new El Toro is belt compatible but if I remember correctly there are only a few different ratios available. Also there are a few custom builders making belt capable frames

Is the "split" between the stays on these frames problematic? The first generation Spot dropout is crap, it worked for what they were trying to do but they have since redesigned a much better dropout system, The Ventana system is stout. 

Is belt tension different than traditional chain drives? the belt uses in my opion less tension than my chain drive SS, but I have seen many people ride with droopy chain drives:eekster: , as far as tension

Is there one tension(ing) system better than the other or are they all the same? I prefer a sliding/swinging type dropout, the first Spot split dropout required you to re-tension the chain if you need to remove your wheel (fix a flat) which could cause problems on the trail (belt line is very critical and too soft of tension it will pop/skip under load) With my Swinging drop-out I can pop my QR and drop out my wheel, than put the wheel back in the drop-out with the belt on both cogs and then it is set up at proper tension and aligned properly 

Are the belts suitable for Clyde's like me who ride a big frame and push hard and create big load climbing? Does frame flex push the belt off drive? I would say that frame flex would be your biggest concern, I'm 210 and push 2:1 evey where I ride I have very stiff cranks (FifteenG) and my builder used the biggest tandem chainstays he could find to help eliminate flex. The alloy Ventanna should be a very stiff frame

Is Gates the only carbon Belt MFG? And do they OEM all the Production bikes Yes, they developed the system and are the only MFG of compatible parts, and supply OEM parts

What is the longevity? Mine is still too early to tell but the Belts claimed life span is about 8-10,000 miles with NO maintenance, not sure on rings and cogs


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

*What is the longevity of the Belts?*

I have read that the belts last as long as Scooter quoted, 8-10,000miles and the rings and cogs last half as long. So a 2:1 ratio as a guide.

I found another Manufacturer of a Carbon Belt system on youtube, cant remember the name of the company but its featured on an Interbike vid.

Check Gates Carbon website for more info regarding frame builders that support this system. There are roughly 6-8 to memory including Seven Cycles.

I will soon be fitting a Belt to a Blacksheep Ti frame using the HACS horizontal adjustable chain stays to tension the belt. It will be one of only two that James has set up and I will hopefully have it operating in the next 2 weeks.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

Shouldn't a thread like this become a sticky for the belt drive guys.

Scooter, never did see a pic of the new frame build up.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

crazy8 said:


> Shouldn't a thread like this become a sticky for the belt drive guys.
> 
> Scooter, never did see a pic of the new frame build up.


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=555547


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

It would be good if there was a sticky or a special forum for belt drive.

I have done a few belt drive conversions so I can answer some of these questions.



Ike Turner said:


> ...Is the "split" between the stays on these frames problematic? (loosening; stiffness)


Bikes have been made with a split since the beginning, and most utility bikes in Asia and Africa are still like this. Their seatstay is bolted at the rear dropout. Also if you look closely at many bikes using carbon seatstays you'll notice that they are disguising the joint. Many of the fancy joints you are seeing on the new crop of belt drive bikes are too fancy in my opinion, excessively technical when all that is needed is a simple pin joint which would be cheaper to produce and use less material.

The simpler the joint the less trouble is likely to happen.



Ike Turner said:


> ...Is belt tension different than traditional chain drives? Is there one tension(ing) system better than the other or are they all the same...


I set my belt tension using hand pressure and it doesn't feel much different from my chain.



Ike Turner said:


> ...Does frame flex push the belt off drive?...


Frame flex is the biggest enemy of belt drive. If you think of the belt a series of parallel lines, then when the frame flexs, then these arrive at the rear cog at an angle to it. This means they do not slot into the grooves and try to ride up on the cog.

One of the bikes I built had a lot of flex. I rode it in the SSUK and the flex was so bad that I had to walk a lot of stuff I could otherwise have ridden. Since then I have experimented with various systems to get round this. The best so far has been a preventer pulley which does not engage with the belt until it starts to rise. The position of this pulley is critical, but it enables the belt drive to work on a frame which is otherwise too flexible.



Ike Turner said:


> ...Is Gates the only carbon Belt MFG? http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/ And do they OEM all the Production bikes...


I think they are the only one that has done a specific bike application.



Ike Turner said:


> ...What is the longevity?


Haven't broken, worn one out yet, but that's a very small sample.

Here's a previous post I did some time ago


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

> Frame flex is the biggest enemy of belt drive. If you think of the belt a series of parallel lines, then when the frame flexs, then these arrive at the rear cog at an angle to it. This means they do not slot into the grooves and try to ride up on the cog.
> 
> One of the bikes I built had a lot of flex. I rode it in the SSUK and the flex was so bad that I had to walk a lot of stuff I could otherwise have ridden. Since then I have experimented with various systems to get round this. The best so far has been a preventer pulley which does not engage with the belt until it starts to rise. The position of this pulley is critical, but it enables the belt drive to work on a frame which is otherwise too flexible.
> 
> ...


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Here is the link to the other system available from Delta C at Interbike.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> > ...When you said you walked sections at the UKSS that you would have otherwise ridden, were you suggesting that the belt was derailling or slipping?
> 
> 
> It was trying to.
> ...


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Velobike,

My frame was originally built to use a chain and then we realized that the telecopic chainstays could be seperated to except a Belt. All my concerns were passed on to the frame builder and the conclusion was that it would be all ok. Here's to hoping.

My initial concern was that Ti is flexier than steel and aluminium, having read comments about light Ti frames derailling chains etc As it turns out Im swapping my Garmin Edge 305 for the Gates Belt, ring and cog so if it fails I havent lost too much other than dissapointment and some weight off my bike. I dont use the Garmin too much so its no biggy.

Scooter commented that his frame has heavier guage stays to counter act flex, I wonder what extremes Spot Brand and others have gone through to counteract lateral flex.


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## Ryan G. (Aug 13, 2004)

Will these new flanges help with the belt "walking" off during heavy loads?










https://www.spotbikes.com/news?74c6d058e6c75e336c1635757436cc6f=4ba8d3c2e56039794b5833a98e3bd0fa


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I have never had a belt come off, but then I have not accumulated the miles of testing that the likes of Spot have done.

Flanges are a bodge - a poor substitute for proper belt alignment and frame stiffness. They are probably necessary when there is a chance of user error, eg with track ends it is necessary to be very precise to guarantee perfect alignment (to the standards needed for a belt) after replacing the wheel.

In my opinion it is bad design to use a tensioning system that requires the user to align the belt. I predict a move to EBBs if belt drive catches on, or maybe the move will be necessary before it does, because otherwise there may be a litany of woe and recrimination from users with broken or jumping belts. This will be the result of belts not properly lined up by their users.

It's early days yet though, so manufacturers are going to prefer to build their frames with a bias towards chains.

The simplest solution will be to build frames to the "magic ratio" and no adjustment. The bike I converted for the SSUK was done like this - it was a derailleur frame and I had to remove a tiny amount of metal from the front of the dropout to get the tension correct.


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## Bikeabout (Nov 27, 2007)

Velobike said:


> In my opinion it is bad design to use a tensioning system that requires the user to align the belt. I predict a move to EBBs if belt drive catches on...


I suppose it is _possible_ to have a bike frame so perfectly aligned that this would work. But very unlikely. Currently (as I see it) there is a NEED for some fore-aft wiggle room in the axle so ensure that the belt is not trying to run off. Flanges or no flanges.

An EBB would allow a belt to be tensioned, yes. But how to make up for variations in frame-to-frame (presumably) vertical drop-outs? Or an accumulation of errors in BB/crank/axle/cogs? I suspect that belts will always need some degree of adjustment for run-on/run-off. I'm guessing that making frames and parts accurately enough to guarantee alignment would be prohibitively expensive and rather limiting.

For most of us, I suspect that adjusting axle tension with some kind of tensioner will remain more effective and expedient than removing "...a tiny amount of metal from the front of the dropout to get the tension correct." (Though I respect that.)

On the contrary (and I mean _contrary_... Winkety wink.) I think it is a bad design to use a drive system that requires the user to lube a chain. Or that puts drive tension on a 1.5mm thick tooth instead of spreading the load over 10mm. Or a drive system that has to be taken apart and put back together with a special and complex tool instead of slipped on a frame opened with simple allen bolts. Or endangers a user with a drive wheel of pointy spikes!

I point this out for readers and skeptics of the belt drive.I think that we are used to the limitations of chains to the point of not even thinking of them. I don't know if a belt drive is "better" (I love mine!) but I don't like to confuse "bad" with "different".

Belt drive is simple in a different way than chain drive is simple.

That being said, I would welcome a change from the track forks on my bike. Looks like Spot is making that change -- new sliders -- and other manufacturers are as well.

--Greg


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Bikeabout said:


> ...But how to make up for variations in frame-to-frame (presumably) vertical drop-outs? ... I'm guessing that making frames and parts accurately enough to guarantee alignment would be prohibitively expensive and rather limiting.
> 
> For most of us, I suspect that adjusting axle tension with some kind of tensioner will remain more effective and expedient than removing "...a tiny amount of metal from the front of the dropout to get the tension correct." (Though I respect that)...


That's true. It was one of the benefits of removing a little bit of metal 

I took more off the right side than the left to get the rear axle exactly parallel.

Then a couple of well placed smacks with a big ballpeen hammer on the flat surface* of the dropouts to bulge the leading edge forward to allow for the metal removed, plus a bit of light dressing to ensure the axle was a perfect fit.

Sorted 

In other words EBBs plus a bit of massaging at the dropout will fix any problem with alignment.

*with a vice for an anvil underneath


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

baycat said:


> Will these new flanges help with the belt "walking" off during heavy loads?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a 2009 Spot like the one in this picture. I think this design is crap for a belt drive. Those Spot Rocket tensioners are like little toys so I switched them out for some Surly Tugnutts, which work ten times better.
I think belt tension is key. But this Spot design relies too much on how tight you can get your quick release. If the belt is too loose it will slide to the outside under heavy cranking, this will put more of a side load on the belt, and it will break. It happened to me. If the belt has proper tension and alignment, it is virtually impossible to break and it will never slip. 
I agree with another post in this thread that Ventana has a great design for the belt drive. They are going to be making the El Comandante for a belt drive. I might have to get me one of those suckers next season. 
Long live the BELT!


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Velobike said:


> That's true. It was one of the benefits of removing a little bit of metal
> 
> I took more off the right side than the left to get the rear axle exactly parallel.
> 
> ...


For a device to function correctly for all users there is always going to be the need for adjustments. Not everyone is going to want to dick around dremmeling their frames to accomodate a belt.

What your suggesting is like selling a Belt Sander with no tracking adjustment and asking the customer to modify his tool to stop the belt flying off? Cant imagine it taking off too well. The likeliness of all frames being straight enough for true alignment would be slim IMO.

I think the Flange that Spot and Gates have developed is a more versitile when used with sliding or Horizontal dropouts as it would work with all scenarios, flexy or not.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> For a device to function correctly for all users there is always going to be the need for adjustments. Not everyone is going to want to dick around dremmeling their frames to accomodate a belt.
> 
> What your suggesting is like selling a Belt Sander with no tracking adjustment and asking the customer to modify his tool to stop the belt flying off? Cant imagine it taking off too well. The likeliness of all frames being straight enough for true alignment would be slim IMO.
> 
> I think the Flange that Spot and Gates have developed is a more versitile when used with sliding or Horizontal dropouts as it would work with all scenarios, flexy or not.


I think you have missed the point. I modified a non-belt drive vertical dropout frame with no adjustment possible. I was explaining how I got the alignment and tension spot on. This is not something that would be necessary on a production bike - at least I hope it wouldn't be!

My point is that unless the manufacturers have a high standard of accuracy in the original manufacture AND have a simple adjustment method that maintains the parallel location of the axle and BB, there will be problems.

A flange is a bandaid solution, not a cure.

I also have a belt drive bike with trackends, and it is necessary to be much more particular when replacing the wheel than it is with the belt. I suspect some Spot customers have been having trouble maintaining the necessary accuracy, hence the introduction of the flange.

If belt drive is to succeed, then very accurate frame making is going to be an essential.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Velobike said:


> I think you have missed the point. I modified a non-belt drive vertical dropout frame with no adjustment possible. I was explaining how I got the alignment and tension spot on. This is not something that would be necessary on a production bike - at least I hope it wouldn't be!
> 
> My point is that unless the manufacturers have a high standard of accuracy in the original manufacture AND have a simple adjustment method that maintains the parallel location of the axle and BB, there will be problems.
> 
> ...


I hear you entirely, I just didnt agree that frames should be made specifcally with EBB and fixed rear dropouts when accomodating Belts. I just cant imagine the reliability of frames being made with such small tolerances and no ability to make fine adjustments.

There have been far to many comments regarding crucial fine tuning for me to consider a frame with no adjustability.

As for the Flange, it is indeed a quick fix but maybe a neccessary one for more flexible frames. The reason I favour its intended use is that it may well be the only way I can experience the Poly Belt as my new frame was initially built around a light weight tube set, not neccessarily in conjuction with Gates Belts. Out of curiousity, could this Flange have helped your own previous issues with derailment?

I agree that the future of the system hovers around more belt orientated frames with greater lateral rigidity but this Flange will allow it to accomodate a wider variety of Frames including my own.


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## Genshammer (Jun 30, 2006)

*Paketa Magnesium Belt Drive SS 29er*

There's a company out of Boulder called Paketa which does custom Magnesium frames, and they use Gates belt drive. They sent MTBR a bike to test and review. I rode it for 3 weeks and the belt drive was flawless. Put it through the ultimate torque test - Slickrock Trail. Check out the review I just posted on the Paketa Magnesium belt driven singlespeed 29er.










https://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/paketa-magnesium-belt-drive-singlespeed-29er-review/


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> ...There have been far to many comments regarding crucial fine tuning for me to consider a frame with no adjustability...


That would be done by the manufacturer, not the user. End of problem. The result would be an ability to replace the rear wheel in a simple manner without any worry about alignment.

The flange on a frame that is flexing or has the rear wheel misaligned is better than nothing, but it should not be necessary at all in a properly designed frame. It would be interesting to hear from a Spot owner as to whether they have been having problems, or whether the flange is simply a precaution by Spot against sloppy wheel replacement by owners.

I did consider modifying my rear cog to take a flange or a belt guide but there is still the possibility of the belt riding up, which is why I use a preventer pulley - also a bandaid solution.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

*Prices of belt drive components*

Here's the current European price list for Gates belt drive bits


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## Ryan G. (Aug 13, 2004)

Velobike. Can you post pictures of some of your conversions?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Is anybody planning on building a freewheel compatable with belt drive? I would surely hate to have to get rid of 3 sets of Pauls (3 bikes worth of wheels) hubs to do this. 

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

baycat said:


> Velobike. Can you post pictures of some of your conversions?


*This link will show you an earlier one*

It's better than my other photos which don't show the process, just the finished article. I'm usually too impatient to photograph every part of it.

I'm looking around for another frame to modify so I can build up a bike with my S-A S3X.

I wonder if a 3 speed fixed wheel belt drive bike would be niche enough?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Velobike said:


> I wonder if a 3 speed fixed wheel belt drive bike would be niche enough?


http://thebikeshow.net/fixie-killer-sturmey-archer-s2c/

There you go.

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> http://thebikeshow.net/fixie-killer-sturmey-archer-s2c/
> 
> There you go.
> 
> Tim


Been there, done that already 

I've got a couple of Duomatics and tried one with the belt which is why I'm planning to try the S3X now.

For what it's worth the Duomatic has too much slop for my liking - be ok on a commuter I suppose. The S2C may be different, Sturmey are pulling out all the stops to revive the hub gear market and I'm experimenting with a few of their other products too (eg drum brakes).


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Velobike
You think the slop is because of the kick back shifting? Is there a way to tighten it up?
I want SA to come out with a 32 hole dirt worthy disc compatable 8 speed. Even a 5 speed would be nice

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

TimT said:


> ...You think the slop is because of the kick back shifting? Is there a way to tighten it up?
> I want SA to come out with a 32 hole dirt worthy disc compatable 8 speed. Even a 5 speed would be nice...


I didn't investigate the slop, it seemed on a par with other coaster hubs. I don't think it can be adjusted because it's probably to do with the clearances on the engagement dogs.

I reckon once you past 3 speeds hub gears get too heavy. If you want 8 speed go for an Alfine, not S-A.


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## Ike Turner (Dec 20, 2006)

This is interesting.

My first reaction to all these Belt Frames as I said is this: How can the 3 piece bolt together Dropout/seatstay/chainstay be durable and stiff at all?

Is a big Clyde rider over tough terrain a mechanical waiting to happen??

Can we say that Belt Drives on Mtn Bikes are for gentle rolling terrain?

Not a dig just a though


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Ike Turner said:


> ...My first reaction to all these Belt Frames as I said is this: How can the 3 piece bolt together Dropout/seatstay/chainstay be durable and stiff at all?...


That's my thoughts too. One bolt is all that's needed if it's in the right place. Then it's like a pin joint and is perfectly strong, and that's how I prefer to do it.

There's no question about the strength of the belt.


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## afie (Aug 28, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> Ventanna's new El Toro is belt compatible but if I remember correctly there are only a few different ratios available. A[/COLOR]


You should be able to get any hardtail Ventana with their new swinging dropout to allow for a range of ratios.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

afie said:


> You should be able to get any hardtail Ventana with their new swinging dropout to allow for a range of ratios.


A mate of mine is the Australian Importer for Ventana and will have one of the new Ventana SS Belt frames on Monday next week or soon after. According to Sherwood of Ventana the frame was made specifically for 46-28 and due to the CS length doesnt offer many ratios close to this. He wanted a 39-24 or 39-25 and it isnt possible until a specific length belt becomes available early next year. To memory its a 115T belt that will solve the problem.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> ...He wanted a 39-24 or 39-25 and it isnt possible until a specific length belt becomes available early next year...


Belt length availability is the biggest hassle with belt drive just now.

Most SS frames are designed around old chain technology and have about 1" of usable adjustment which is perfect when you can remove links. Unfortunately you are stuck with the length of the belt, and the next size can be 3-5 teeth difference when all you want is 1 tooth difference to fit within the chainstay length.

*Nicolai belt drive ready frames * show the advantages of clean sheet design


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Ike Turner said:


> My first reaction to all these Belt Frames as I said is this: How can the 3 piece bolt together Dropout/seatstay/chainstay be durable and stiff at all?
> 
> Is a big Clyde rider over tough terrain a mechanical waiting to happen??
> 
> ...


Ventana's Design is VERY stout, I'm a 230# clyde and I cannot tell the difference between the split slider dropout and my one piece rear tri on my SS. Currently in 3x9 configuration, but purposely had Sherwood design it to fit the Belt drive system If I wanted to later on.
http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=489348&stc=1&d=1255459095


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

*Calling anyone running a belt drive set up......*

Having big problems getting alignment right on my bike and would welcome any help as it's the first time I've use a belt set up. Before I go on, here is the info I assume you need:

Frame: Ventana El Comandante
Rear Hub: Hope Pro 2 freewheel, 135mm
Cranks: Middleburn RS7
Belt Drive: Gates Carbon Drive
BB Shell: 68mm
BB: SKF BXC 600 - 113mm axle

So, no matter what I do I cannot get the belt to stay centered, apart from once but then it developed an odd creaking sound on rotation at certain regular points. I have the belt tensioner so I know it's not that. I've followed the instructions but just can't get it to work. Seems fine when I tension the belt, but as soon as center the rear wheel it drifts left or right.

I've also tried a Truvativ crank with external BB but the same happens. Took it to a store today and we tried moving the BB spacer over from the drive to non drive side to bring the crank closer. This got it to about 5mm from the frame, but still the belt wandered. I've flipped the rear

The only time I got it silent the rear cog was on the last couple of mm of the freewheel cassette and I wasn't comfortable it will hold up under torque.

Does anyone have any secret hints and tips I can't find elsewhere. Does the belt have a direction?

I'm off to bed now as it's 11pm here in Australia, but with any luck I'll have a flurry of solutions when I wake in the morning 

Have attached a few images to help explain too. First is the rear hub engagement the only time I had it running silent. Second is the chainline. Third is distance from crank to frame, fourth is the rear wheel installed showing gap between cog and slider dropout and lastly the tension gauge.


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

I've found on mine that the main reason for the belt to wonder is it's too loose. I've also noticed no matter how perfect I think I have the belt set up while the bike is in the stand it always takes a few more tweeks out on the trail before it's running perfect. Once I have it set there, it's good to go until the next time I have to change a flat or something. The creaking noise will go away after a few miles. The reason for it is nothing is perfectly round. So you will have the tension set just right at one point in the rotation and then it will be tighter at another point. I would error on the side of too tight and put a few miles on it to see if the creaking will go away. Mine did. 
You have a great set up there with the Ventana. You shouldn't have any problems with that sucker. You might try to get the new outer flange for the rear cog that they are making now. 
Hang in there. Once you get the belt dialed in, there is nothing like it.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Check that your rear axle alignment is parallel to the BB.

Is the front ring on the inside or outside of the crank spider?


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

Velobike said:


> Check that your rear axle alignment is parallel to the BB.
> 
> Is the front ring on the inside or outside of the crank spider?


Alignment is accurate
with BB. Did think about moving the crank on the inside of the spider rather than the outside.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

HeezaGeeza said:


> Having big problems getting alignment right on my bike and would welcome any help as it's the first time I've use a belt set up. Before I go on, here is the info I assume you need:
> 
> Frame: Ventana El Comandante
> Rear Hub: Hope Pro 2 freewheel, 135mm
> ...


Ok my fellow Australian

This is gonna hurt, but........when I got my system I feared the worst regarding alignment as I have no means of fine adjustment but in the end getting the alignment right seemed the easiest part.

Looking at your pics I would suggest getting the front ring closer to the frame to allow your rear cog better placement on the freehub body. I cant tell from the pics but my mate has this same bike and can only use a 46T ring on the crank. ( the frame is designed for this ring only at this stage ) .

Heres the two ways I insured correct alignment, one of which is quick and easy so try it first. Get a straight edge like a builders square and place it firmly on the front ring so that it follows the belt to the rear cog. If it is alinged correctly the front ring will be with in 1mm or so of the rear cog. The more complicated method that I used before setup was to take some measurements of your frame. Start off by getting your front ring positioned between 1-2mm from your frame. Then measure the diameter of your seat tube and divide it by 2, then measure between your seat tube and inner face of your front ring. Add these together. Next divide your rear hub spacing ( approx 135mm ) in half, should be 67.5mm and subtract your first measurement from this. The answer you get will be roughly 17-27mm. This measurement will be the distance between your rear dropout and the inner face of your rear cog.

In summary, if this is a little confusing, your mearly finding the centre of your frame with crank and front ring installed as close as possible to the centre and then transfering its position to the rear for correct cog placement.

In my case these were my findings :

Seat tube diameter = 32mm, divided by 2 = 16mm

Distance between ST and inner front ring = 29mm

Total = 45mm

Rear Hub spacing of 135 divided by 2 = 67.5mm minus 45mm = 22.5mm

You can now simplify by measuring the width of the rear cog and subtracting it from my 22.5 calculation and that would be the gap between the outer rear cog face and the dropout on the drive side.

After taking these measurements and then fitting it all together, my rear cog sits on the outer edge of the freehub body but I still have a 5mm spacer between the cassette lock nut and cog which is plenty secure enough for big cranking. I checked with a builders square or straight edge before riding and it was within 1mm of accuracy meaning it was ready to ride.

Of course all frames are going to be slightly out of alignment so its a good idea to only use the measurement method as a guide and then follow by using the straight edge before riding. I have found that with varying belt tension that my belt never wanders as long as its aligned correctly.

Did you buy the frame from Pete Winfield? if so he would be more that glad to help out as he has the same bike. He did have some derailment issues to begin with but the alignment was out by 3mm or so to memory. Its all good now and it survived the Aust SS Champs in November without a glitch.

Hope this helps.:thumbsup:


----------



## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks for the tips. I did pick it up off Pete and he helped spec the parts, plus I know he has one also so I'm confident I will get it working.

Pete is on holiday at the moment, so I didn't want to bother him but of course I'm keen to ride the belt drive, so thanks for the info. If I can't get it sorted I'm sure Pete will help out when he's back online.

In the meantime I'll follow your advice and see if I can get it running. The SKF bottom bracket limits the movement of the cranks but I think I can swap the spacer to the non drive side to get 5mm, or move the cranks to the inside of the spider for the same effect.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

HeezaGeeza said:


> Thanks for the tips. I did pick it up off Pete and he helped spec the parts, plus I know he has one also so I'm confident I will get it working.
> 
> Pete is on holiday at the moment, so I didn't want to bother him but of course I'm keen to ride the belt drive, so thanks for the info. If I can't get it sorted I'm sure Pete will help out when he's back online.
> 
> In the meantime I'll follow your advice and see if I can get it running. The SKF bottom bracket limits the movement of the cranks but I think I can swap the spacer to the non drive side to get 5mm, or move the cranks to the inside of the spider for the same effect.


Yeah, Pete is at Mt Beauty at the moment.

Try a couple of things out, Im sure you will get it working. Pete has his rear cog on backwards and it still works, I also got the Spot flange with my kit and after I was confident with it I took it off. Its never moved since.

Make sure you have a strong secure skewer to keep your wheel placed perfectly in the same place all the time, you dont want it moving under load. I can remove my wheel out on the trail and put it back in without any alignment issues what so ever.

My other tip is to get an Automotive Oil Filter Remover from Supercheap Auto or similar for removing the rear cog. It works way better than Gates supplied tool and it wont break like the Gates tool either. Although they only cost $10 to replace I broke Petes genuine tool twice at the Nationals just before race start!

Good luck:thumbsup:


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

my cog sits at about the same spot on my I9 freehub, I have a flange disc on order form Gates so I can flip the cog 180. no issues so far but flipping it around will allow better engagement of the splines on the freehub. I do gets some weird squeaking when it is dusty and I just rub my gloves on the sides of the belt and it quiets down, I'm running slightly off-line now but it hasn't caused many problems, I will be getting the flange soon so perfect alignment will be possible. I have about 2mm of chainring clearance so I only have the option to adjust the rear cog.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> my cog sits at about the same spot on my I9 freehub, I have a flange disc on order form Gates so I can flip the cog 180. no issues so far but flipping it around will allow better engagement of the splines on the freehub. I do gets some weird squeaking when it is dusty and I just rub my gloves on the sides of the belt and it quiets down, I'm running slightly off-line now but it hasn't caused many problems, I will be getting the flange soon so perfect alignment will be possible. I have about 2mm of chainring clearance so I only have the option to adjust the rear cog.


Hey Scooter,

I like the idea of flipping the rear cog to get better placement on the freehub, I have the flange with my kit so I might play around with that at a later date.

Im loving the belt so far!

Have you booked in for the SS Worlds? 400 spots have been taken already, make sure you dont miss out.

Muz


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

-Muz R- said:


> Hey Scooter,
> 
> I like the idea of flipping the rear cog to get better placement on the freehub, I have the flange with my kit so I might play around with that at a later date.
> 
> ...


I signed up for Leadville again this year, if I get in there is no way I can possibly afford both races, I don't find out until the first week of Feb.

I may be missing worlds this year 

If I find out that I don't make it in to Leadville I may email the guys at SSWCNZ and see if I can get a late entry.

are you going?


----------



## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> I signed up for Leadville again this year, if I get in there is no way I can possibly afford both races, I don't find out until the first week of Feb.
> 
> I may be missing worlds this year
> 
> ...


Leadville SS? Big call:thumbsup:

Yeah Ive just entered 10 minutes ago and the entries are up to 476 already. Should be fun, they are offering free T-shirt and Socks with entry fee of $115NZ.

They have some of the best trails in the Southern Hemisphere, it would be a shame to miss out...


----------



## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

-Muz R- said:


> Leadville SS? Big call:thumbsup:
> 
> Yeah Ive just entered 10 minutes ago and the entries are up to 476 already. Should be fun, they are offering free T-shirt and Socks with entry fee of $115NZ.
> 
> They have some of the best trails in the Southern Hemisphere, it would be a shame to miss out...


actually Leadville is the only race I do with gears. I went back and raced it in 06 and 08 and both years missed the cutoff, 06 missed the 74 mile cutoff by 10min, and 08 my body shut down on the way up Columbine and I turned back.

So its $115 NZ any idea what it is in USD??

If I don't race at Worlds I will just make a vacation with the GF and spend a week or two.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> actually Leadville is the only race I do with gears. I went back and raced it in 06 and 08 and both years missed the cutoff, 06 missed the 74 mile cutoff by 10min, and 08 my body shut down on the way up Columbine and I turned back.
> 
> So its $115 NZ any idea what it is in USD??
> 
> If I don't race at Worlds I will just make a vacation with the GF and spend a week or two.


Scooter,

Im glad you use gears for that one, 160km's is a long way with only one.

$115NZ is $84.30US.

Definately head over for a vacation, best time to go is March 1st as its the first day of off peak and will save you heaps in accomodation and car hire etc. Its also the driest month of the year and still warm so perfect for riding. Temps are around 23 deg C with little humidity. Check out Taupo, about 50 miles from Rotorua and there are quality trails south at Wellington. Either way you cant go wrong, the bike shops are always willing to help out a tourist. Queenstown in the South Island has been described as a mini Wistler and there are butt loads of other great rides with full description in the Kennett Brothers book titled " Classic New Zealand Mtb Rides ". Get a copy of this Mtb Bible prior to heading over, it will out line everything that NZ has to offer regarding Mtbing.:thumbsup:


----------



## Shrederland (Oct 28, 2009)

is this how all the ventana SS are shipping now and does any one know the prices in US$? The site does doesn't seem to be updated.

Side shot of the dropout would be cool! thanks


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

Shrederland said:


> is this how all the ventana SS are shipping now and does any one know the prices in US$? The site does doesn't seem to be updated.
> 
> Side shot of the dropout would be cool! thanks


I think you have 
the option of sliders or EBB. The slider is great as you have far more flexibility without the potential issues of EBB.

I have a derailleur hanger on the slider too, so the one frame allows me to run SS chain, belt drive, 1 x 9 or full 27 speed.


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

*Update on Belt Drive installation*

After following the tips from a few people here and some advice from Sherwood at Ventana (who responded within hours - great CS), I think I have the alignment sorted. The Set Square method from crank to rear cog worked well and I now have about 5mm from the edge of the freewheel hub to the cog.

The ONLY thing still persisting is a load creaking noise from the bike as I rotate the cranks. It happens most under light pedaling. The more pressure I put on the cranks the less noise there is.

The belt drifts in about 1 - 1.5mm under heavy load as well, but still seems to be flush with the inner edge of the sprocket so I'm not too concerned.






Anyone have any ideas about the creaking - will it disappear?


----------



## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

that sounds like your hub or freehub bearings


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

scooter916 said:


> that sounds like your hub or freehub bearings


That was my first thought but the hub is brand new, the sound doesn't happen before I fully tension the belt and I've also put a normal single speed chain and cog on the hub and it's silent, so it's definitely the belt......


----------



## Shrederland (Oct 28, 2009)

same hub and no noises like that here.


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

Shrederland said:


> same hub and no noises like that here.


Taking the belt off and rotating the hub is silent, so it's either the belt itself or something in the hub caused by the tension:






Tonight I'm going to try less tension on the belt (although I can't see that as a solution as I'm running the recommended tension and any less may cause it to jump) and then I have 2 other wheelsets both with Hope Pro 2 hubs so will try them and see if I get the same.

Last thing I can try is the rear skewer but I doubt that is the cause.


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

*Problem solved*

At least I think so.

Over the past few days, I've tried a number of things. I used a second wheelset with the same Hope Pro 2 hub on, got the same noise. tried running water over the belt to see if lubrication assisted - nothing.

Went back to the original hub, used a different skewer - again no result. Then I increased the torque on the lock ring which helped a bit. Eventually I swapped the belt over to a spare I had and bingo - now only a tiny bit of creaking.

The creak also now came from the front and not on every turn. Isolated that to a very slightly loose crank bolt. Now it's whisper quiet.

So, tighten everything up and it should be fine. I think I'm going to source on of the Spot flanges and flip the rear to bring it in further on the freewheel and also swap to a steel freewheel from Hope for longevity.

Anyway, looking forward to hitting the trails in stealth mode now......


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

HeezaGeeza said:


> At least I think so.
> 
> Over the past few days, I've tried a number of things. I used a second wheelset with the same Hope Pro 2 hub on, got the same noise. tried running water over the belt to see if lubrication assisted - nothing.
> 
> ...


I too had some creaking and thought my freehub body was toast, I was getting creaking on hard pedal strokes and sometime even while pedaling lightly. it turned out it was my lockring, I snugged it up and all was quiet. I do get some occasional noise on dusty trails so I stop every now and then and run my gloves along each side and it quiets it right down.


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

the belt will win


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## chpfly (Oct 22, 2007)

*Spot Belt Flange -*

I think you might want to look at these. It won't solve all your problems but they work great and are a reasonable price.

http://www.spotbikes.com/news

(Scroll down a little to see the flanges, how sweet is that fixie too!)


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## b2b2 (Nov 22, 2005)

*Gear inch question*

When calculating gear inches on gates belt drive, is it the same as a normal cog and ring calculation? I heard that the 46 T ring on the belt drive is smaller than the 46 t chainring.
does the same hold true for the cogs? what is the G. I. ratio of a gates 46, 28 combo on a 29er ?

Thanks


----------



## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

b2b2 said:


> When calculating gear inches on gates belt drive, is it the same as a normal cog and ring calculation? I heard that the 46 T ring on the belt drive is smaller than the 46 t chainring.
> does the same hold true for the cogs? what is the G. I. ratio of a gates 46, 28 combo on a 29er ?
> 
> Thanks


There are tables on the Gates site that convert this for you. I run a Gates 39-24 and it is the same gear inches as a 32-19.5 chain drive of 47.5 Gear inches

The 46-28 is roughly the same as the 39-24 except the 39 front ring will provide better chain stay clearance thus giving a better chain line. Oh....and its a little lighter too.


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## el saltamontes (Oct 14, 2008)

here you go...

files.me.com/emittedlight/kgyp9g


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## b2b2 (Nov 22, 2005)

Thanks! I think I'll order my new Spot Brand this week. Just not sure about the color Hmmmm....


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

There's no mention on this thread of belt breakages so far. I take it that it's all good


----------



## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

Early days for me but so far so good. Solid system with no potential issues I can see at present


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Velobike said:


> There's no mention on this thread of belt breakages so far. I take it that it's all good


The Belt so far is stronger than my Industry 9 Hubs anyway, cant stop my hub from skipping under load.:madman:


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## PNW (May 25, 2006)

HeezaGeeza said:


> Early days for me but so far so good. Solid system with no potential issues I can see at present


Just caught up with this thread for the first time, sorry.
How is it going now Dave?
Still haven't had to touch mine since the intial teething problem back in mid Nov, I just put air in the tyres and clean it occasionally


----------



## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

PNW said:


> Just caught up with this thread for the first time, sorry.
> How is it going now Dave?
> Still haven't had to touch mine since the intial teething problem back in mid Nov, I just put air in the tyres and clean it occasionally


Hi Pete,

The bike's going great. Been faultless so far and proving to be great fun. The fork's still a little sticky but I'm hoping it just needs bedding in, but it's nothing too noticeable on a ride.

Thanks again for the help and delivering the bike. Maybe I'll bump into on a ride one day......


----------



## coach#1 (Mar 30, 2006)

Hi folks,

I have a question regarding belt tension. 

From what I understand, belt drive systems typically run on higher tension than a chain would. What effect does this extra tension have on the hub and bb bearings? Will they wear out faster or lead to other issues?

I understand that with chain drives it's not recommended to run your chain too tight for this reason.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Coach


----------



## Ryan G. (Aug 13, 2004)

coach#1 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I have a question regarding belt tension.
> 
> ...


Probably have to invest in a good cassette hub like a Hadley or CK. Read mixed reviews on Industry 9 hubs with belt drives. Seen people running Hope too if you wanted something a bit more affordable.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Gotta say that my Industry 9 hubs have been faultless for 4 years with chains and I have 3 sets of them.

When I hooked up a belt drive to my oldest set things havent been so good. It seems as though the pawls are slipping under heavy load. I would have to say that it definately is wearing out my Token BB, not sure about hub bearings though. BB is feeling crunchy after 2 months with the Gates system in place and thats with fancy, smancy teramic bearings.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Fancy Smancy TGriamic Bearings*

Where did you purchase the Token Tiramic's? They have a 2yr warranty against failure. This is the first time I've heard of a set going bad. How long have you run them and have you ever service them. They may just need cleaned and fresh lube. Often the case.



-Muz R- said:


> Gotta say that my Industry 9 hubs have been faultless for 4 years with chains and I have 3 sets of them.
> 
> When I hooked up a belt drive to my oldest set things havent been so good. It seems as though the pawls are slipping under heavy load. I would have to say that it definately is wearing out my Token BB, not sure about hub bearings though. BB is feeling crunchy after 2 months with the Gates system in place and thats with fancy, smancy teramic bearings.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

crazy8 said:


> Where did you purchase the Token Tiramic's? They have a 2yr warranty against failure. This is the first time I've heard of a set going bad. How long have you run them and have you ever service them. They may just need cleaned and fresh lube. Often the case.


I couldnt agree with you more in terms of upgrading the grease but I was surprised to see the feel of the BB deminish so rapidly.

One other factor is the frame that Im using....its a Blacksheep with HACS ( adjustable chainstays ) and I wonder weather water is finding its way into the BB casing and doing the damage. Often after washing the bike if I stand it up on the back wheel, water will run out of the Chainstay tubes.

Might be time to drill a small hole in the bottom of the BB casing...I find this is a must do on some of my other frames to allow any unwanted moisture or water from gathering.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

If you have moisture in your BB shell the bearings will soon feel rough. Drilling a weep hole is a great idea. You may still save the Tiramic bearings with a drying out and fresh lube. The TiN coated races resist corrosion well and the ceramic balls should be fine. It sounds like you have a handle on the problem. When you service the BB post the results. I'd like to know. Straightline makes a good lube for ceramic's.


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

crazy8 said:


> If you have moisture in your BB shell the bearings will soon feel rough. Drilling a weep hole is a great idea. You may still save the Tiramic bearings with a drying out and fresh lube. The TiN coated races resist corrosion well and the ceramic balls should be fine. It sounds like you have a handle on the problem. When you service the BB post the results. I'd like to know. Straightline makes a good lube for ceramic's.


Thanks for the tips, I will let you know how it goes.


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

Great Thread.
I have a Spot on order. I will post pics and thoughts.
DT Swiss 240, 15G BB, Spot CrMo forks, Schwalbe Marathon Dureme, BB7.
Black Chrome!


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

OldMountain said:


> Great Thread.
> I have a Spot on order. I will post pics and thoughts.
> DT Swiss 240, 15G BB, Spot CrMo forks, Schwalbe Marathon Dureme, BB7.
> Black Chrome!


I like the sound of your cranks...nearly went that option myself but I managed to snap up a pair of M970 XTR's and sell the rings to mate. Ended up getting them for $250Au which is more than half the normal rate including BB. I swapped out the BB for the Token to colour match with all my other gold bits. You will love the belt, only problem is all the questions you cop out on the trail. Best drive train Ive ever owned to date and no lube! Woohoo!:thumbsup:


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

I do get a bit odd with trying to get colors to 'fit'. All black, so far.
Post a picture, please.

*Nothing gets in the way of a journey like a destination.*


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Spot * Aerozine * Gates*

Smallfurry's Spot belt drive.


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

*NEW Spot Pics*

Just in at 22.4 pounds (will be a bit less with tubeless)
Hive 15G BB, DT Swiss wheels, Schwalbe tires.


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## C Cow (Aug 2, 2007)

*Hey, I met that bike yesterday!*



OldMountain said:


> Just in at 22.4 pounds (will be a bit less with tubeless)
> Hive 15G BB, DT Swiss wheels, Schwalbe tires.


I rode a little with you after work yesterday. Nice bike.

Have you heard of any frame workers with a conversion method for other frames?

C Cow


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm seriously considering a Gates Drive Conversion on my next SS...


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

Good to see you here!
To design a modification for a horizontal dropout to be split and re-joined might only need a plate & screws.
To convert a non removable vertical drop is more problematic. Also, the front sprocket needs clearance on the chain stay, a bend or 'dimple'. This is only a concern with the wider MT bike frames.
OldMountain


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes !


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## rooster44 (Jan 18, 2009)

What about something like this? :thumbsup:


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## PNW (May 25, 2006)

Looks like the Black Sheep HAC system.
To run a belt, you will have to see if the small 39t front pulley will fit near the chain stay without having a cut out for it. I'm sure BS will cut one in for you if needed


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Do you know of a source for the 39 tooth pulley?

I was told the 39 tooth front pulleys are not going to be produced (anymore). Apparently a problem with the spacing of the BCD.

The smallest pulley currently available is 46t and this definitely causes problems with mountainbike applications. It needs a long chainstay to avoid interference from the front spocket. It will not be a problem with bikes designed for the purpose, but even then mud clearance will be compromised to gain sprocket clearance if chainstay length is to be kept within a reasonable dimension.

(I have done a number of conversions and this is the biggest limitation I have found)


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## PNW (May 25, 2006)

Gates definitely make a 39t, I know of 3 here in Australia


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## juscruzin (Nov 22, 2007)

I have a 39t. If you put it on a Blackburn triple crank, you will have to file away a small amount of metal on the pulley so that it does not foul on the crank.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

PNW said:


> Gates definitely make a 39t, I know of 3 here in Australia


I've been trying to get one in the UK, and was told by Nicolai (who are the Gates Europe suppliers of CarbonDrive) that they would be no longer available.

I've got in touch with Gates in USA to see if I can get one from there.

I'm in Oz a couple of times a year - is there an Oz supplier who has them?


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

Does anybody here know what is going on with Spot? I have yet to see any 2010 models in stores. I've only seen pictures.


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## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

they really only do custom orders, i think


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

Since when? They don't even have a web site.
I boght my Spot in a shop.


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

The web site is a work in progress. I 'guess' that frames will be Colorado made now.
Custom dimensions are an option as in Ti.
Mine is a great bike. Cool video...


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

I love my Spot, too. 
I'm thinking next year I want a new one with the new rear drop outs, though.


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## cbrock450 (Apr 18, 2008)

My LBS has a few in store. I live about a half hour from denver so maybe they are just starting to show up. I just picked up a spot belt drive with the new paragon sliders, what a difference from the old setup and their crappy chain tensioner system.:thumbsup:



Charlie Cheswick said:


> Does anybody here know what is going on with Spot? I have yet to see any 2010 models in stores. I've only seen pictures.


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## Squirrel West (Dec 11, 2008)

*Someone mentioned Blacksheep HACS*

Got me a Blacksheep with the HACS and a belt.

My Spot (which I love) was a royal pain in the ass when it came to aligning the wheel and tensioning the chain.

For the Blacksheep build, I considered sliders, but was persuaded by some riders of sliders to go with the HACS.

Also, not really sure if the fotos will do it justice, but check out the weld quality vs. some others.

Very happy that I did.


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## Charlie Cheswick (Apr 16, 2009)

Squirrel West said:


> Got me a Blacksheep with the HACS and a belt.
> 
> My Spot (which I love) was a royal pain in the ass when it came to aligning the wheel and tensioning the chain.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking. How much for a Blacksheep frame like that?
That is one spanking bike and I would ride it silly, I might add.


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## b2b2 (Nov 22, 2005)

Is anyone making rear cogs besides gates? I would love to get a 23-T cog but gates does not make one. I think I saw somewhere that Phil Woods was making them, but I cant find any info.


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## messor (Dec 30, 2009)

It's difficult to find builders with belt drive mtb in their catalogues. This seems quite interesting (link in german):

http://www.poison-bikes.de/frame.ph...y1=2&lay2=4&lay3=0&lay4=&prodid=201010113-115

Does anyone have some info about this company?


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## Ike Turner (Dec 20, 2006)

messor said:


> It's difficult to find builders with belt drive mtb in their catalogues. This seems quite interesting (link in german):
> 
> http://www.poison-bikes.de/frame.ph...y1=2&lay2=4&lay3=0&lay4=&prodid=201010113-115
> 
> Does anyone have some info about this company?


Good link. The drive side drop out split looks like quite a stiff design. Dig it even more in a 29

And their EPO T+ DH bike looks dope. Makes me want to ride a 26 again. I wonder how that linkage works.


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## OldMountain (Oct 3, 2008)

Spot's web page is back with some new very cool bikes!
My Spot is now 5 months old and I like it better & better.
Zero problems with belts, dropouts! Never a skip or miss track.
Schwalbe Marathon Duremes a perfect for my dirt & urban riding.

Spot's "Sprawl" next on my list!


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## -Muz R- (Oct 18, 2006)

Charlie Cheswick said:


> If you don't mind me asking. How much for a Blacksheep frame like that?
> That is one spanking bike and I would ride it silly, I might add.


My BlackSheep Frame is very similar to this one and it cost me about $4000AU with a Uni Crown Ti Fork.

I dont recommend using a 39-24T Gates combo on this frame unless your trails are pretty tame gradient wise. My belt jumped teeth so bad I removed it in favour of a chain but Im very happy with it now. The Belt got so bad after 4 months that it started jumping (Klacking) when climbing seated in wet weather. Be sure to get James to fit some Tensioner screws behind the grub screws on the HACS system, it will allow for far simpler adjustments with Belt or Chain and avoid any unwanted slippages.

I loved the Belt and think its a swell idea but my frame is not rigid enough for proper function. With a chain however, this frame rocks and I wouldnt swap it for anything.


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

-Muz R- said:


> ...I dont recommend using a 39-24T Gates combo on this frame unless your trails are pretty tame gradient wise. My belt jumped teeth so bad I removed it in favour of a chain but Im very happy with it now...


One possibility is that the front pulley is too small. The European distributor is refusing to supply 39T pulleys because they reputedly cause problems. Maybe if you could get the same ratio with the next size up (46T) the problem may be avoided.

It's frustrating not being able to get a 39T to test it. Spot in USA want $75 for the shipping to Europe of a really lightweight part, so it's simply not worth getting one from the USA.

Edit: I have just been informed the correct amount is $15 which is ok.


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## cbrock450 (Apr 18, 2008)

I had the same issues with the 39t and once i switched to a 46t I have never had a problem with the belt popping :thumbsup:



Velobike said:


> One possibility is that the front pulley is too small. The European distributor is refusing to supply 39T pulleys because they reputedly cause problems. Maybe if you could get the same ratio with the next size up (46T) the problem may be avoided.
> 
> It's frustrating not being able to get a 39T to test it. Spot in USA want $75 for the shipping to Europe for a lightweight part, so it's simply not worth getting one from the USA.


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## b2b2 (Nov 22, 2005)

Ive been ridding 39/24 for 3 months now with no skipping problems after innitial set up. Steep hills ( Colorado Rocky Mountains) and wet weather are fine. The biggest problem I had was getting the 39 to fit my crankset. I had to file a little bit off two of the spider arms.


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## MINImtnbiker (Mar 2, 2004)

I have the same noises that you do coming from the rear hub of my Industry 9 SS hubs. Alignment is good - I've measured the centerline of the belt to be 50.0mm from both front and rear pulleys.

Noise goes away under hard pedaling - about 50% effort and higher. Also noises when spinning the cranks backwards. No noise from the hub bearings themselves when the wheel is removed. 




What did you end up doing to fix it?







HeezaGeeza said:


> After following the tips from a few people here and some advice from Sherwood at Ventana (who responded within hours - great CS), I think I have the alignment sorted. The Set Square method from crank to rear cog worked well and I now have about 5mm from the edge of the freewheel hub to the cog.
> 
> The ONLY thing still persisting is a load creaking noise from the bike as I rotate the cranks. It happens most under light pedaling. The more pressure I put on the cranks the less noise there is.
> 
> ...


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## HeezaGeeza (Jan 23, 2006)

*Is you lock ring tight*

I found that my lockring and crank bolts were not tight enough. This resolved 95% of the noise. I still get a bit back pedaling and a bit when I really put power down but it's no big deal.

Your alignment looks good overall so it shouldn't be that.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Minimtbiker

Is the belt rubbing up against the flange of the cog? That would make it pop. If so you'll need to respace the rear cog in a bit. Plenty of spacers available for the rear.

Tim


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Neat pic of a simple snubber from CDrive belt systems. Very similar to what I built for myself.










*https://www.cycledrive.com*


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## wrench177 (Dec 27, 2007)

MINImtnbiker said:


> I have the same noises that you do coming from the rear hub of my Industry 9 SS hubs. Alignment is good - I've measured the centerline of the belt to be 50.0mm from both front and rear pulleys.


As others have said, make sure your lockring and chainring bolts are tight. My belt made the same noise when the lockring was simply "snug", not tight. If that doesn't work, it's probably an issue of too much tension on the freehub body. Not sure what you could do at that point other than moving the cog as close to the hub as possible. Of course, that depends on your front chainring and if you have room to move that inboard a little as well.

I didn't have that luxury. The clearance between the chainstay and chainring was so piss poor on my Spot, I had to run 2 1/2 spacers on the drive-side BB cup. Total design fail on the part of the guys in Golden. Add to that too much BB flex and the need to baby my belt, I moved back to chains. Here is my initial review and my third follow-up.

CDS was just not worth the hassle, IMHO....YMMV. In order to get a frame stiff enough to work properly with CDS, the ride quality would have to suffer.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

wrench177 said:


> ...In order to get a frame stiff enough to work properly with CDS, the ride quality would have to suffer.


No, you simply need a properly designed frame. There's more to a frame than chainstays. Flexing chainstays are no big problem when you have a derailleur to keep everything together, but a good single speed should keep its chainring and rear cog aligned.

The last place there should be lateral flex is in the chainstays. Even with a chain, it is an advantage to have stiff chainstays for good power delivery.


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## wrench177 (Dec 27, 2007)

Velobike said:


> No, you simply need a properly designed frame.


I agree. I guess I am just jaded because I have a bike made by the company that adopted belt drives from the beginning. If anyone should have all the kinks worked out, it should be Spot. Unfortunately, that is not the case with my frame. It was built less than a year ago and has Paragon (not the Kobe) sliders. So, it's not one of their 1st generation frames. The sliders work great, however, there are several other issues that seem like rookie frame builder mistakes. First, clearance on the drive-side chainstay is ridiculous. They sold me a 39x24 ring/cog set. The 39t chainring is mounted in the big ring position on XT cranks and with two BB spacers on the drive-side cup, there was less than .5mm of clearance. Too close for comfort, so, I added a half size BB spacer to the drive side. This gave me the clearance I needed, but, left precious few BB threads screwed into the drive side. I eventually striped the threads on my Enduro BB on the drive side. This is with a 39t chainring! I couldn't even dream about running anything larger. Total design fail.









Then, there is the frame flex at the BB. There is just too much flex and the belt drive cannot handle it. I had the Spot Brand flange you asked about and to be honest, I think it makes the problem worse. Now, the belt has two flanges to ride up when torqued to the side. This probably wouldn't be an issue with a stiffer frame and/or chainstays, but, it is a problem with my frame.

So yes, I agree that a properly designed frame should work well with a CDS. I wish I had one. I've spent a fair amount of coin on this stuff and currently it's hanging on a wall in my garage.

Frame design aside, I am still skeptical about belt drives on mountain bikes. When you read the literature Gates supplies, the warnings are ridiculous. "Do not twist or crimp", "do not roll it onto the cogs", do not look at it cross-eyed. I have to wonder what happened when a stick got sucked into the belt/cog or when laid it down on a rock or dragged it over a log across the trail. These are all "real world" situations while mountain biking. The other thing that is alarming is once you start to ratchet the belt, you have essentially compromised the carbon in the belt. The problem will only get worse and no amount of tension will eliminate the situation. Time to buy a new belt...at $50-$70 bucks a pop. Neither one of my belts lasted more than 2 months before they needed to be replaced.

Your On One conversion is great. Really nice job there. I have always maintained that a belt drive is probably better suited for road and commuter applications. I'm glad to hear the SA hub can handle the pre-load tension the belt requires. That is one aspect I thought would kill a hub. I have to assume the larger cog and chainring combo has made the difference between our experiences with the belt drive.

I would like to hear from other people with belt drives on mountain bikes. What bike do you have and has the belt worked for you? I really want to like the system and would love to find a bike where it works. OldMountain appears to have a new Spot, but, it looks like that bike is setup for urban use. I need to find a bike that can handle technical rock crawling and hill climbs.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

wrench177 said:


> ...Your On One conversion is great. Really nice job there. I have always maintained that a belt drive is probably better suited for road and commuter applications. I'm glad to hear the SA hub can handle the pre-load tension the belt requires. That is one aspect I thought would kill a hub...


Thanks. I'm running it with no more tension than I use with a chain so the hub and BB bearing are safe. I'm very fussy about getting the alignment spot on.

One possible factor is that I bolt up the hub bolts very firmly (S-A nuts are strong) and this may help with the lateral stiffness of the frame.

My mtb conversion though uses QRs and has no issues either - it's an alloy frame - and again I run it with similar to chain tension.

All the belt drive issues were known years ago before Gates came on the scene, so I'm surprised at how many of the same mistakes are being repeated.


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## wheeliam (Feb 16, 2011)

hi guys!

may I know the price of the Gates carbon belt drive set (39x24t @113teeth)?

thanks in advance.


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## randorf (Sep 26, 2010)

*Single speed Truvative crank modification for a Gates belt drive*

I've posted a link to my Fb page showing some modifications done to a Truvative X-Forge single-speed crank-chainring assembly.

I did this work on my old Burley Runabout. I wanted to maintain as much of the original components as I could. I did worry about the sprocket clearance. In the end I had my frame dimpled though it was not necessary (and the dimple was made in the wrong place but anyway...).

I had my LBS put the thing together. Beware, they put the rear cog on backwards on the Afline 11-speed. It might happen to you too. That really made the belt drift until I noticed that they flipped cog. Once they flipped it back all was well.

The bike originally had a Truvative 110mm BB which I changed to a Phil Wood 113mm. Probably a mistake as the adjustment required really shifted the crank over. Fixable but not a priority at the moment as the assembly works well. The belt slipped only once and that was when the rear cog was flipped. I had about 5mm of belt-cog contact at that time.

This bike uses an eccentric with a 50T 104mm and a 118T belt.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150167696606087.301366.619586086&type=1&l=6d2b64fdbe


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