# Sea Otter 2017



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

These are two observations; hopefully, won't add gasoline to the hot flame. There must have been 30 vendors with e-bikes at SO, many more than I've ever seen. Wonder why? High profit margin and lots of parts replacements and service --- yes; but, ebikes don't appear to be selling well enough to generate the interest that was apparent. Secondly, all but one vendor had models that would satisfy CA etc standards, most with mid-drives that were Bosch or a look alike. Suggests to me that the "legal" (bike path and lane) area is where the majors will focus.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Ebikes are saving their bacon in Europe, they expect to replicate that here. The average american has such a different mindset about bikes though and it's harder to use a bike effectively here for transportation, they'll have to overcome that to get people to treat them differently than the expensive bikes that so many people buy that collect dust in the garage. Latest news....

E-bike & speed e-bike - Bike Europe

eMTBs ofc are a market tbd


----------



## Silent_G (Oct 30, 2010)

"high profit margin"?????? That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Silent_G said:


> "high profit margin"?????? That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.


You mean they're losing money on each and every one?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I would *love* to see more fatass Americans on bikes but I think Harry is right - there is a huge culture and infrastructure problem to overcome. 

If you're used to being outside around cars on a bike and know what to wear, where to park your bike, how to carry clean clothes, etc etc etc then the only thing stopping you is laziness, which the e-bike solves. But most people have no clue how to do any of the basic steps involved with commuting on a bike, and there's also a perception that bikes are for dirty hippies and crazy spandex clad maniacs (with the occasional hipster with a giant chain around their waist thrown in for good measure). 

There are a lot of hurdles to overcome. But it can't hurt to make the actual physical activity required easier - at least if the goal is to get people out of their cars. 

-Walt


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> I would *love* to see more fatass Americans on bikes but I think Harry is right - there is a huge culture and infrastructure problem to overcome.
> 
> If you're used to being outside around cars on a bike and know what to wear, where to park your bike, how to carry clean clothes, etc etc etc then the only thing stopping you is laziness, which the e-bike solves. But most people have no clue how to do any of the basic steps involved with commuting on a bike, and there's also a perception that bikes are for dirty hippies and crazy spandex clad maniacs (with the occasional hipster with a giant chain around their waist thrown in for good measure).
> 
> ...


Yep, the existing bicycling infrastructure isn't leading to more commuting by bicycle in most places.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

May have said it wrong and apologize if so, but my friends have 40% gross profit in e-bikes while about 33% in pedal variety. Problem for commuters in CA (not running errands which I do all the time on a MTB or e-MTB) is that any extended trip takes much longer by surface streets than by freeway. I can get to my job 22 miles away in 25 minutes by car and it would require way in excess of an hour by bike. May not justify travel by car to some, but does to me.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Walt said:


> I would *love* to see more fatass Americans on bikes but I think Harry is right - there is a huge culture and infrastructure problem to overcome.
> 
> If you're used to being outside around cars on a bike and know what to wear, where to park your bike, how to carry clean clothes, etc etc etc then the only thing stopping you is laziness, which the e-bike solves. But most people have no clue how to do any of the basic steps involved with commuting on a bike, and there's also a perception that bikes are for dirty hippies and crazy spandex clad maniacs (with the occasional hipster with a giant chain around their waist thrown in for good measure).
> 
> ...


Sadly, I imagine it'd take serious celebrity media coverage to make cycling look cool and interesting, and to desensitize the general American public about the price of a quality bike (one that isn't potentially unsafe).

Right now, the cycling industry's marketing is mostly about trying to make their best people look cool(er). This is absolutely terrible marketing practice. For example, look at the ads on mtbr. What the industry thinks is "their finest face", is quite nerdy and unrealistic to others--it's like an entirely different world that has a huge buy-in price. Also, the faces are, 90% of the time, of fit white men, with the other 10% being fit white women. This marketing effort is targeting the higher/privileged class, which is the 1% (ex. dentists). Seriously need to re-educate some of these people responsible for such marketing...

I imagine that there's less than 1 in 10000 people who have a bike that's over $350 in the US. There's seriously some dysfunction going on. No need to soften the edge of the message you're trying to get out. Personally, I think cycling is pricing out too many people. The comparisons to autos, can buy a decent car or motorcycle for that much, that cycling enthusiasts hate so much, are very true. I suspect they're mostly trying to defend their justification for "investing" $3500+ for their latest rig, trying to show how it's worth it in some shallow manner. If something like Bontrager's philosophy on wheel/component pricing takes off, setting price points and trying to fit as much quality into it as possible, rather than charging what the market's willing to pay, utilizing economies of scale, the future of cycling would undoubtedly be a better place for an exponentially larger number of people.

I truly believe electric motors on bikes will be the catalyst that changes everything. I really hope that some ebikes get super powered up through interest and culture and rival cars for transportation/hauling needs. Would be cool if they didn't need a paved road to do it on either, allowing off-road short cuts. A bike can get away without having major safety features, like what's required of 4 wheeled highway-traveling vehicles. Too bad this is just a dream, considering how Americans are now, chasing the money and easy life. Cycling needs to re-invent itself, laying off the spartan recreational side, and making it more welcome as _a better way to move around_. Being told to suck it up regarding all of cycling's awful sides, not only the high prices, but things like "breaking in your ass" to make saddles more tolerable, isn't helping. Do people feel good that they managed to demonstrate stronger willpower over others, who found these difficulties too off-putting to get into the sport? Would you rather not have it any other way??? If this is not the time for change, or the right kind of change, then what is? There's got to be a middle ground that avoids the "sucky" extremes of current enthusiast cycling culture and the motorhead culture, yet retains the best of both...


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tiretracks said:


> Yep, the existing bicycling infrastructure isn't leading to more commuting by bicycle in most places.


 Bike commuting IS getting better though. Look at Boston( where I work) surrounding 'burbs and NYC. So many more bike lane and commuting options. Look at the bikes shares popping up in so many metro areas. Perfect no, upswing in popularity, yes. Really some big increases in the last say 3 years. New bike lanes and bike paths all the time.


----------



## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

It isn't all laziness either, showing up at work all sweaty is unacceptable at most workplaces. Changing clothes may not be enough to hide that, and most workplaces do not have showers.

Ebikes would cut down on the sweat factor.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I think bike connectivity is improving as well, although I think it's isolated and not keeping pace with increasing cars on the road. Making it easier to get around by bike is great, but aside from the people who might go out for an occaisional fair weather weekend cruise, you have to have a certain level of commitment, both finiancially and mentally. Which for us, all people who like to be outdoors and ride bikes among other things, doesn't seem like much. We accept that we'll be out in the weather, it might not be great, it could change, it could turn into an adventure, but we've got the gear and we can deal with it. Most people though, really don't like to be outside all that much unless it's a destination, the beach for example. They view the outdoors and the weather as something to avoid or ignore as they go from house to car to building, back to car and home. I know people who will state, "Oh, I'm an inside person, I don't like spending time outside" Even with an ebike, I don't think you're going to change those people. 

I wish for the opposite, but even if you give a non rider an ebike that they wouldn't have to pedal to commute to work or use for errands and it would only get used in those perfect situations where they have a nice safe way to get there, there's no chance of bad weather, they don't have to drop their kids off on the way, pick up groceries on the way home, etc. I've commuted for 15 years, I know the temptations to pick up your car keys well... 

I think the best scenario is that you'll get current commuters to commute more often, or ones that used to, but now it's too far and a few new converts. And people that use them to tool around on the bike paths for fun in the summer. All good.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Cars keep getting better too. Electric (or petrol) self-driving cars will make it even easier not to ride a bike anywhere, and I'd guess we'll see them for sale all over in the next 5 years.

Of course, collision avoidance systems in cars will be awesome for bikes - but there are an awful lot of rusty legacy F150s that will be around for the next 20 years. 

-Walt


----------



## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm with Harryman, I don't think the physical exertion is actually what stops most people from bike commuting.

I mostly hear people say it's because of time (e-bike could help some with that), they feel like biking isn't safe (I hear that a lot, even though I live in a bike friendly area), and the weather seems to scare a lot of people away. "You rode your bike in the rain!? You're nuts." 10 minutes later..."I wish I had more time to get in shape.".

I'd love to see some magic bullet that gets people riding more for transportation, just not sure this will be it. The price barrier is still pretty steep and it only solves one of the issues I hear people talk about.


----------



## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Security is also an issue. Bike theft is a problem that has only gotten worse. There are opportunists out there in all forms (see bait bike stories/videos). I wonder about what high tech solutions, that offer far greater peace of mind, come with the electrification of bikes.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

formula4speed said:


> I'm with Harryman, I don't think the physical exertion is actually what stops most people from bike commuting.
> 
> I mostly hear people say it's because of time (e-bike could help some with that), they feel like biking isn't safe (I hear that a lot, even though I live in a bike friendly area), and the weather seems to scare a lot of people away. "You rode your bike in the rain!? You're nuts." 10 minutes later..."I wish I had more time to get in shape.".
> 
> I'd love to see some magic bullet that gets people riding more for transportation, just not sure this will be it. The price barrier is still pretty steep and it only solves one of the issues I hear people talk about.


 My magic bullet? When gas hit $4.00 a gallon and driving was cutting into my beer AND coffee budget. Wait till it hits $ 4,6,8 a gallon. Might be too late for all by then. Time will tell. I used to pedal with my daughter to the soccer games in town, like 3 miles away. She would mostly sit on the back of the tandem then. All my neighbors at the game would ask," you pedaled all that way?" The same folks who drive 2 miles to the gym, and drive the same distance to get 1 or 2 things from the store. It is a mindset more than anything. Year round commuter into Boston, usually 2-4 trips per week, totals about 2,000 bike miles per year. I talk to people, seems so far fetched. Car takes about an hour, back roads. By bike, 20 minutes more in good weather ( 17 miles one way) Bike paths the last 6 miles or so. More cars and more gridlock seems to be getting more folks on 2 wheels. Its a start.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

leeboh said:


> My magic bullet? When gas hit $4.00 a gallon and driving was cutting into my beer AND coffee budget. Wait till it hits $ 4,6,8 a gallon. Might be too late for all by then. Time will tell. I used to pedal with my daughter to the soccer games in town, like 3 miles away. She would mostly sit on the back of the tandem then. All my neighbors at the game would ask," you pedaled all that way?" The same folks who drive 2 miles to the gym, and drive the same distance to get 1 or 2 things from the store. It is a mindset more than anything. Year round commuter into Boston, usually 2-4 trips per week, totals about 2,000 bike miles per year. I talk to people, seems so far fetched. Car takes about an hour, back roads. By bike, 20 minutes more in good weather ( 17 miles one way) Bike paths the last 6 miles or so. More cars and more gridlock seems to be getting more folks on 2 wheels. Its a start.


For sure, I've always thought that as painful as it would be, $8/gal gas would be the only thing to change how we look at our car centric world in the US. Which is one reason why elsewhere in the world where cars are more expensive (+VAT), gas is more expensive, mass transport has been heavily utlized for over a hudred years, and EVERYONE has ridden bikes for transportation during their lifetime, ebikes are super popular.

Walt had a good point about electric cars though, they could start to steal some ICE cars thunder in a significant way as well if gas goes back up.


----------



## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

I went car free a little over a year ago, I'm lucky to have an easy bike commute, though not by accident. Being able to ride to work was very high on my list when house shopping. Eventually it made the most sense to ditch the car altogether and my cargo bike picks up the slack when I want to haul stuff around.

I've "inspired" a couple others to become part time bike commuters, but most just keep doing what they always did (drive everywhere). Plenty of people say they wish they could bike commute, but there's some barrier there. 

I guess like some others here, e-bike commuters would be welcome, but my hopes aren't too high. Sorry if I'm dragging us OT.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

My wife loves to ride her MTB and would jump at the chance to commute by bike; additionally, it's mostly a gentle downhill in and the reverse back, so she would be fine at work, then sweaty going home. However, i let her ride a few times, but the roads are way too dangerous to allow her to consider it frequently.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

I live in Marin and people here hate bicycles. Two guys just got creamed on their bikes, the comment section in the local rag is very disheartening. I they don't hate them because it's expensive to put in bike lanes, it's because they get stuck behind them on the road.


----------



## Keski (Aug 23, 2004)

Emily Batty showing some e-bike love at Sea Otter...


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Keski said:


> Emily Batty showing some e-bike love at Sea Otter...
> 
> View attachment 1134008


That's what they pay her to do.....


----------

