# Lupine Street Light SL



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Lupine Street Light SL

Lupine announced quite a while ago the so called " Street Light (SL) ", compliant with the german STVZO (a legislation/law for everything related with road transport).

Some words about STVZO. Every bike light, used on a bike of course, on common roads in Germany needs the STVZO approvement (in theory). One of the main points, among others, is that a bike light does not glare. Which implies it does have a clear cut-off bright/dark in the distance. Most commercial solutions (all I know) compliant with STVZO do this with a reflector creating the beam. The LEDs don't look and project directly outward, instead the visible light is mirrored and distributed over the reflector. Examples of the (maybe known) popular models are the Philips Saferide and the Busch & Müller Ixon IQ.

To put it short, every Lupine light so far and all the other china stuff of the sort, Magicshines, Dinottes, Cateyes etc. etc. etc. ist not allowed on roads in Germany. It is quite a grey field how this is handled or persecuted by the police etc. (if at all), but in theory it's just forbidden and only allowed offroad. Many other european countries don't have such a strict approach, but anyway many legislations also have restrictions on bike lights "not allowed to glare" etc.. As said, a big grey field. But indeed in fact with the result, that many Europeans use such STVZO compliant lights on the roads, not just in Germany.

I've never been in the US, but from what I've read in e.g. this forum, however there seems to be no restraints in USA in using all the mentioned lights on the roads. So the whole talk so far might earn just a shrug.

Anyway. The STVZO compliant Lupine Street light is announced in 3 different versions
- for E-Bike, type "Bosch" (=B) SL-B
- for E-Bike, type "Pedelec"(=P) SL-P
- common model for everybody with Li-Ion battery, like the other Lupines so far. (=A) SL-A , A for Akku=rechargeable battery

Details are:
Done with 2 consecutive lenses. 900 lumen. 16 Watts. In a video was mentioned a price of 265 Euros for the SL-B (= approx. 300 USD)

Thread: SL -
Beamshot: SL - Seite 4 -
Lens geometry: SL - Seite 8 -
Light SL-B : SL - Seite 10 -
Light SL-A : SL - Seite 10 -

SL-B was released so far: https://www.lupine.lighting/products/e-bike-lights
SL-A is still "prototype", there was an up and down if it was to be produced at all, current statements indicate it will be released/produced, still unclear when. The statements are somewhat incoherent.

regards

EDIT: mtb-news.de article about the SL-B with some pictures and a video (german): Eurobike 2016: Lupine â€" SL, die Lampe speziell fÃ¼r e-Bikes - MTB-News.de


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## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

I've been waiting for an English review of the light! It is impossible to get a coherent description through Google Translate from German to English. Thanks for the update. I don't see them selling well here in the U.S. because like you said, there is little to no regulations about the matter.


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## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

With the lack of respect bikes get on the road from vehicles here in the USA, I'll be damned if I'm giving up my bright lights. They can fine me, and I'll go to court.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cutoff beams are kind of a misnomer anyhow. Consider a bike/vehicle with a cut off beam approaching a small hill in the road. As the vehicle climbs up the hill, the cutoff is somewhere above the road and completely ineffective. I've noticed this many times after this discussion started coming up in various bike forums.

J.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I think it is extremely useful on the road though a light well-aimed is probably not going to bother too many. I like the idea of a cutoff and a nice wide beam, and while I will use my Lupine Tesla on the road, the Betty has to be seriously dimmed down and I don't feel too comfortable blinding oncoming drivers. I'm going to play with the brightness levels so the beam does't travel insanely far, basically. It's dangerous for me as well.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Oh, I hope they come up with an adapter for their regular batteries so commuters and road cyclists can use it too.


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## n0tEcH (Dec 28, 2014)

tjl5709 said:


> With the lack of respect bikes get on the road from vehicles here in the USA, I'll be damned if I'm giving up my bright lights. They can fine me, and I'll go to court.


I will also continue to use my bright lights (where I come from there are no strict rules for bicycle lights), but it is a good idea to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. That would benefint your security as well. 



JohnJ80 said:


> Cutoff beams are kind of a misnomer anyhow. Consider a bike/vehicle with a cut off beam approaching a small hill in the road. As the vehicle climbs up the hill, the cutoff is somewhere above the road and completely ineffective. I've noticed this many times after this discussion started coming up in various bike forums.
> 
> J.


I agree. You experience that when riding cars as well. And when out on the trails I tilt the light up and down depending on how the terrain is. I do the same when riding on the road. More difficult for a car. 



Flyer said:


> I think it is extremely useful on the road though a light well-aimed is probably not going to bother too many. I like the idea of a cutoff and a nice wide beam, and while I will use my Lupine Tesla on the road, the Betty has to be seriously dimmed down and I don't feel too comfortable blinding oncoming drivers. I'm going to play with the brightness levels so the beam does't travel insanely far, basically. It's dangerous for me as well.


Agree. Tilting the light and using different dim levels should go a long way. And yes it is dangerous for you as well to blind oncomng traffic. The problem seems to be in Germany (and some other) and those strict rules, and because of that the SL lamp is a great idea. Where I come from there are no strict rules for bicycle lights, but common sense tells me it is a stupid idea to blind people anyhow, so I play nice with my two Wilma's. 



Flyer said:


> Oh, I hope they come up with an adapter for their regular batteries so commuters and road cyclists can use it too.


The SL-A should be the light for you, as it is compatible with standard Lupine batteries?
Or are you thinking about a light that is interchangable between E-bikes and your regular bike?


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Oh, I did not realize that they had a version that was compatible with their batteries. I don't need a e-bike version...I would be lynched if I ever showed up at the trails with an e-bike. It does actually sound great for winter rides but I'll just pedal my fat bike and cross bike and try to keep my fitness up.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, to add some more facts as known so far and also some speculations:

- The (non e-bike) SL-A with common batteries is awaited by some people, no doubt. However, no word has been said so far that it will be compatible or run with the current Lupine "one-for-all" batteries with 7.2V. My guess is it will be, if not IMO it would be another drawback in the commercial prospect.

- As for a normal plus a high beam like in cars. For the SL-B there is just one beam. As a high beam is not allowed for e-bikes as it seems: SL - Seite 4 -
However it seems that for the Pedelec e-bike system, a high beam is allowed. In the posting above is implied, that for the pedelec SL-P Lupine thinks to include also a high beam, where also is stated that it is "easy to realize". Can't say much as this electrobike stuff is absolutely not my field , but it seems to be an issue of regulations.

This in addition to the thread here with the supernova m99, where the issue has been adressed: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/riding-road-mtb-lights-1023645.html#post12863719

- Lupine is building a new office&workshop: Neubau -
The CEO ("Wolf" in the forum) wrote that they are completely absorbed the next 6 months or longer with the SL-B. My guess is, they must have got a cooperation with some major e-bike producer with SL-B as standard mounted light. According to analysts, a boom of these e-bikes is predicted. This would explain the priorities of Lupine on these e-bike lights and why the other stuff, mountainbikers inclusive, is put in the background at the moment. There were no other major new products from Lupine this year. Remember, it is still a modest company with some 20-30 employees.

regards


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I have not been able to find any information on this Lupine SL-A yet. Please post any articles or discussions you find. Thanks.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Flyer, CHnuschti summarized pretty much everything there is to know about this light at this point. It does not exist yet, and probably even Lupine don't know if they will make it at all - ebikes are where it's at these days. After all, where do you go beyond the already 5000 lumen Betty?

To me the SL-A beam shape seems a bit tight (a bit similar to the Philips Saferide). I have a 2nd generation B&M "Ixon IQ Premium" which has a wider arched beam, and although it is not quite bright enough and there are many artifacts visible in the beam, it works surprisingly well on the road. I also had a 1st generation which was terrible - exactly because of the tighter beam shape.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Just a quick note to say if you want B&M lights in the US you can get them through Peter White Cycles. You have to call in your order rather than through a website but I had no trouble getting one. I have one of the less bright ones at 30 lux, it just makes the cut for a "to see" light for road use IMO.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

New statement of the Lupine CEO: "we hope that the SL-A will be available still this year": https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4667&start=165#p32696

He also announced an "international version" of the SL-(?), not fully compatible with the german STVZO. The IMO not so breathtaking difference will be: 
1) daylight (on the outer left and right side) will be able to run together with the main (night) light. Said to improve the near field illumination
2) the daylight will have a blinking mode
This version will be available only outside of Germany. All other features don't change. Gives an idea about the hard-to-bear pressure of regulations in Germany. 
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4713

regards


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A beamshot comparison of modest quality with the new SL (-B , i guess), to get an idea:
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4667&start=225#p32980
Top the Lupine Piko 4 (1500 lumen)
Bottom the SL running with 12V and 900 lumen according to the specs.

SL-B "international version"announced to be deliverable "in small numbers" up from approx. Dec. 10 2016
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4667&start=195#p32888

Some were able to get the SL-B "international version" already delivered:
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4667&start=195#p32922
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4667&start=210#p32970

regards


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

SL-A (the battery version) expected early next year. Can't wait


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I hope they kick up the lumen count (1500-2000 max would be great on the road and bike paths) in the battery version and keep the beam a bit wider. I'm not sure if a wider beam would be road-compliant in the EU but it sure would be nice here in Colorado. Every road beam I have seen is very narrow, and I would not buy one. I think one exception is that Schmidt Eledul II light. It could be the best road-compliant light and beam out there right now

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/sch-edelux-II-800.jpg

Now, it is a dynamo light but compliant and it seems the beam is relatively wide and bright. I think it is ~20 feet wide and the distance is around 100 ft easily. I think 30 ft or 10 meter width is a good width for here.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

The SL-A (battery version) of the Lupine Street light is available finally. In 2 Versions SL-A 4 (3.3Ah battery, 339 Euro) and SL-A 7 (6.6 Ah battery, 385 Euro). The batteries are still the same traditional known ones (7.2V) working with all Lupine lamps. 3 modes, 16W (900 lumen), 8W (500 lumen), 1.5W (?). No remote, just a button on the lamp. Only sets (with battery) available for instance, no offer of the lighthead alone so far.
https://www.lupine.de/produkte/fahrrad-beleuchtung/sl-a
https://www.lupine-shop.com/de/led-lampensets/fahrradbeleuchtung/

Manual: https://www.lupine-shop.com/media/pdf/fc/db/f9/SL_A_StVZO_web.pdf

Regards


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I love the design of the lamp but the price is out of this world. Thankfully we don't have the stupid regulations that the Germans do. That said I'm betting that when run at the 900 lm level many are going to find themselves getting citations ( in Germany ). Most road lamps used in Germany likely aren't putting out 900 lumen. For the money I hope they are programmable.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Here is the lighthead alone:

https://www.lupine-shop.com/de/lampenkoepfe/1475/sl-a-stvzo

Available in a month or so.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

265,00 € for such a lighthead? Sorry, no way, if you'd ask me...


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Seems like a nice setup for the road/paths. I'm tempted but will hold off since I have so many nice lights. Most of my road riding, even 50-milers, can and is done on nice bike paths that are not trafficked much. I'll make do with the Exposure and/or the Tesla. 

I'd love to see good beam shots.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Well now I understand where the mj808 design came from. Never heard the Tesla now but magicshine only ever copied till recently (and 100s of Chinese garbage lights followed) so I wondered who came up with the design. Lupine.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Something about that beam pattern makes me love the Tesla even though my other lights are a lot brighter. Apparently, it was expensive for Lupine to produce really good reflector designs with that dimpled surface. I'll never get rid of it.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

And those reflectors are commonplace now. All over the flashlight world and used to be all over bike lights until good optics came to be.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Cat-man-do said:


> I love the design of the lamp but the price is out of this world. Thankfully we don't have the stupid regulations that the Germans do. That said I'm betting that when run at the 900 lm level many are going to find themselves getting citations ( in Germany ). Most road lamps used in Germany likely aren't putting out 900 lumen. For the money I hope they are programmable.


My B&M Ixon IQ Premium (2nd gen) has a very nice cut-off beam that is very usable in dry conditions - must be at most 200 lumens or less, since the light runs on 4 AA batteries for about 5 hours or so. When the roads are wet this light is no longer sufficient, but it goes to show that with a specific beam shape you can put your lumens to good use.

Based on this I presume 900 lumens directed onto road surface are REALLY bright. Yes, pretty expensive, but since when do you ask the price of a Rolls Royce or a Tesla (hint: if you have to ask you can't afford it ).


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

radirpok said:


> My B&M Ixon IQ Premium (2nd gen) has a very nice cut-off beam that is very usable in dry conditions - must be at most 200 lumens or less, since the light runs on 4 AA batteries for about 5 hours or so. When the roads are wet this light is no longer sufficient, but it goes to show that with a specific beam shape you can put your lumens to good use.
> 
> Based on this I presume 900 lumens directed onto road surface are REALLY bright. Yes, pretty expensive, but since when do you ask the price of a Rolls Royce or a Tesla (hint: if you have to ask you can't afford it ).


"Bright" is highly subjective and there is a wide variance between individuals and in applications on how bright a given a light is perceived.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

radirpok said:


> My B&M Ixon IQ Premium (2nd gen) has a very nice cut-off beam that is very usable in dry conditions - must be at most 200 lumens or less, since the light runs on 4 AA batteries for about 5 hours or so. When the roads are wet this light is no longer sufficient, but it goes to show that with a specific beam shape you can put your lumens to good use.
> 
> Based on this I presume 900 lumens directed onto road surface are REALLY bright. Yes, pretty expensive, but since when do you ask the price of a Rolls Royce or a Tesla (hint: if you have to ask you can't afford it ).


The IQ Premium has always been on my, "would like to try" list. A couple off topic comments; Real shame they didn't make it to run on 18650's ...unless perhaps it's compatible with AA size Li-ion cells (?). I took a quicky look at the review over on CPF. Beam pattern seems to be able to reach beyond 100 ft which is damn good.

About what you said about, "wet roads"; I think almost all lights suck on wet roads but yeah, lesser output isn't going to help. 5hrs run time ( on high ) with 4xAA's is awesome. By comparison the old school DiNotte 200L's ran for 2hrs on 4xAA's. Now I'm thinking about buying one. I can get one below $50 but I want one that comes with the shield and the fork / headset mount. Damn, wish they would make one compatible with Li-ion, have a remote and output at least 500 lumen...not to mention all flash modes hidden.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

radirpok said:


> Based on this I presume 900 lumens directed onto road surface are REALLY bright.


Well said. I also think the aspect of putting light into an intended direction is somewhat underestimated here. Most of the commercial LED lights just put the light into all directions, I would guess that one third of it is just put useless into the air. While in hiking or also MTBiking it may make sense, it doesnt that very much on roads, usually a wider space and mostly with just slight changes over the distance. From this point of view, I think the brightness of such an SL with focused beam indeed is competitive with the common lights so far, where a good part of the light dissipates "into nothing".

regards


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Make sure you get the latest version, the first gen beam is useless in my opinion (way too narrow), for reference, I ordered my from bike24.net 5 years ago and the model number was 192QM. Running it on Sanyo Eneloops, I have no problem with that. I have the "shield" but don't use it, it's not really necessary.

Actually, I just checked on bumm.de and mine is the "40 lux" one, and they already have an "80 lux" upgrade (1922QM), so I'm not even using the Premium version as I previously thought. That much better for you!


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A beamshot comparison: Neue eBike Lampe Lupine SL | Seite 4 | Pedelec-Forum
On top, the SL-B running with just 6V, so approx. 500 lumen of the possible 900 lumen.
Bottom the Lupine Wilma with 3200 lumen. 
The photographer assured he used the same camera settings. The SL looks quite competitive IMO.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Nice beam pattern, quite identical to many "cut-off" lights.

Not competitive against the Wilma by far though. Look at the field on the left and exactly how far reaching the Wilma is. The field on the left (looks like corn but i can't really tell) how well lit and detailed it is for many many meters further than the SL.

Does one thing, shows that insane lumens for road use just isn't needed, it's all about how the lumens are used (beam pattern)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

CHnuschti said:


> A beamshot comparison: Neue eBike Lampe Lupine SL | Seite 4 | Pedelec-Forum
> On top, the SL-B running with just 6V, so approx. 500 lumen of the possible 900 lumen.
> Bottom the Lupine Wilma with 3200 lumen.
> The photographer assured he used the same camera settings. The SL looks quite competitive IMO.


It's really hard to get a good idea of the quality of a light from an online photograph especially in the areas where the light is changing from light to dark. The camera has no where near the dynamic range of the human eye AND there is a huge variance in human dynamic range as well. Comparing the fine points of beam quality is really difficult on a web photo (based on having done a lot of it and being a semi-pro photographer). You can get a pretty good idea of throw because you can pick out targets at distance in a gross sense. Spill is a lot harder.



RAKC Ind said:


> Nice beam pattern, quite identical to many "cut-off" lights.
> 
> Not competitive against the Wilma by far though. Look at the field on the left and exactly how far reaching the Wilma is. The field on the left (looks like corn but i can't really tell) how well lit and detailed it is for many many meters further than the SL.
> 
> ...


I agree it looks like the Wilma is stronger in all regards - as one would expect. Looking carefully at the objects on the roadside, it looks to me like the Wilma has more than twice the throw of the SL and about the same spill with added intensity in the main beam area (which is expected).

That said, and from riding a lot on the road on a road bike at night in hilly areas with many turns in the road, the throw is absolutely indispensable when descending at full speed. So I very much disagree with you on your comment on road use. Then again, it depends on what "road use" means. That means different things to different people.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

CHnuschti said:


> A beamshot comparison: Neue eBike Lampe Lupine SL | Seite 4 | Pedelec-Forum
> On top, the SL-B running with just 6V, so approx. 500 lumen of the possible 900 lumen.
> Bottom the Lupine Wilma with 3200 lumen.
> The photographer assured he used the same camera settings. The SL looks quite competitive IMO.


At 500 lumen the SL looks to be providing a very nice beam pattern. I can't read German so I don't how far the throw is in the photo but it looks pretty good.

*@John;* About the throw issue: People have different needs when riding road. Like you I have a couple different routes that I like to ride at night that include some very nice long down-hills. These are also wooded and include side roads so there is the element of unexpected wildlife jumping out at you and of cars popping out of a side road. On my favorite hill I'm sure my speed is near 40mph. At that speed you just have to be able to see more than 200ft. That's why even if I chose to use a lamp with a cut-off beam pattern on the bars I will always still carry along a brighter lamp setup for those special moments when I just need more throw. On the one particularly fast hill I do my Gloworm X2 on the bars with XP-L torch on the helmet has never let me down. I now have a newer, brighter torch for the helmet which I have yet to try out on the helmet. It's my BLF A6 with XP-L HI emitter. On boost the A6 is awesome.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Another beamshot comparison: Test: E-Bike-Scheinwerfer - Radtouren Magazin
Note: This is a comparison for E-Bike lamps. The beamshot of the Lupine SL(-B) is running at 6V/500lumen. There are marker in the middle of the street at 40 and 50 meters. The M99 Pro beamshot shown is with the high beam (at 1600 lumen), that lamp is "allowed" only for Pedelecs up to 45km/h. Keep in mind, all of the shown lamps are available for E-Bike ONLY, with exception of the Lupine SL-A, which as said is available also with common battery pack, so the only battery solution for us "old-fashioned-bikers-moving-forth-by-our-own-force".


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

JohnJ80 said:


> It's really hard to get a good idea of the quality of a light from an online photograph especially in the areas where the light is changing from light to dark. The camera has no where near the dynamic range of the human eye AND there is a huge variance in human dynamic range as well. Comparing the fine points of beam quality is really difficult on a web photo (based on having done a lot of it and being a semi-pro photographer).


Frankly I have to reply that I'm exactly of the opposite point of view. And I also have photographed some beamshot comparisons. The human eye with its adaptive capacities IMO makes it difficult to judge a comparison when viewed yourself life out in the field. For example, with my old Lupine Betty, when switching from 2000 to 1200 lumen, after some minutes it's hard to tell for me what really did change, due to the said adaptive behaviour. IMO photographic shots (with same settings) are the only suitable method for an objective comparison between different lamps.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

CHnuschti said:


> Frankly I have to reply that I'm exactly of the opposite point of view. And I also have photographed some beamshot comparisons. The human eye with its adaptive capacities IMO makes it difficult to judge a comparison when viewed yourself life out in the field. For example, with my old Lupine Betty, when switching from 2000 to 1200 lumen, after some minutes it's hard to tell for me what really did change, due to the said adaptive behaviour. IMO photographic shots (with same settings) are the only suitable method for an objective comparison between different lamps.


So I have I taken many beam shots to the point where when I look at the fine points, and no matter how great I am with the camera, it doesn't show the edges of the beam well and tends to oversaturate at the bright center spots.

I don't think it matters much in the center spot of the beam - as you say, there is a limit to how many lux in a given spot one can look at. And, because the camera has dramatically less dynamic range than the human eye, it divides brightness up into many less "bins." I suppose that can make it easier to determine what is brighter in some sense.

But, where you simply cannot tell how good a light is from a photograph (especially on line) is in the details of the beam and particularly so in the spill. There, the camera, with it's 15 f-stops of sensitivity simply cannot compete with the human eye at about 21 (each f-stop is a doubling of light). So what happens is that the spill is not shown anywhere near as completely or as comprehensively as it is by human eye.

The human eye is an optical instrument that is maybe 64 times better in dynamic range - something like that, as a minimum, it is a lot.

What you are describing is letting your eyes adjust to a given light. At some point, you're eyes will adjust their aperture to the amount of light. Because there is such a wide dynamic range of your eye, it will eventually kind of normalize the light out by adjusting the aperture (radius of your pupil). However, if you look at lights before you eyes adapt, you will see that you eye is far more discerning of an instrument and you will get far more understanding of the quality of the beam both in throw, spill, and artifacts. Your eye is just that much better.

I suppose the good new here is that the quality of lighting has just improved almost exponentially in the last several years to the point were we are arguing by the very finest of fine points of beam quality (quality of spill, pureness of beam/lack of artifacts, and - my favorite - color/hue). The lumen wars are over now, it's easy to get all the lumens you could possible want. Now, with the OCD streak that seems to afflict cyclists, we're going to go nuts over the shape of the beam.

J.


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

More screenshots in comparison, shot by the Lupine CEO himself:
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4794&start=60#p33340

1. Top SL-A 16 W near field
2. Lupine Piko on max. (15W/1500 lumen)
3. Lupine Neo on max. (7W/700 lumen)
4. Lupine SL-A on max. (16W/900lumen)

and more here:
https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4794&start=60#p33348

1. Top SL-A "daylight"
2. SL-A on max. (16W/900 lumen)
3. Lupine Betty on max (45W/5000 lumen)


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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

I think this light doesn't blind other people on the road? Does this light do a better job with that than an ITUO light?

Why is this light so expensive for only 900 lumens?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Speeder500 said:


> .......Why is this light so expensive for only 900 lumens?


German made versus Chinese made is a big part of it.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There's A LOT more to lights than just lumens. That's what most people don't and sometimes refuse to understand. 

Beam pattern, options, functionality, quality, etc.

Lupine you pay for German engineering that many companies try to follow. Truly sometimes they don't even get it right but innovation comes at a high price. Engineers aren't free, prototyping all of that is expenses.

Most companies source in many of their components from what already exists. Lupine has their optics and reflectors for instance, custom made at a lot higher quality than anyone else.

Though these lights in particular are pretty much all about e-bikes the innovation behind them is substantial. So your going to pay for it.

There's other lights that are less blinding for road use that Ituo. Ravemen, Serfas and others have cut-off (or dipped if your splitting hairs) beams for road use that are much easier on the eyes.

I went to an LBS last week and we got into talking about lights. Owner flat out said he likes the fact his little cygolights blind drivers.

So I took one in broad daylight and shined it in his eyes (with permission ) and asked him "now how would you like to be driving at 45mph and get hit with that?"

He said "well our lights don't sit that high". Walked outside, took my bike off the rack, put the light on, told him to sit in my van. I walked around front out about 25 ft and kicked the light on.

"Now tell me their not that high. And your sitting in a minivan. Imagine a car where that light is dead in their eyes. And I'm not a roadie, I only ride pavement paths and residential after dark, but I get it".

Another case was a couple riding just after dark across the bridge here. 2 lane and narrow. On straight bar road bikes. They pissed a lot of ppl off because we couldn't see. They had them pointing dead straight, Everytime they turned their bars towards traffic I had to hit my brakes cause everyone in front of me did. And one guy even yelled out his window at them (was a bit much, they were only probably 700 lumens give or take).

Off-road we don't care here, it's all one way traffic on the trails. 

There's a lot to learn, need to think past the lumens to understand.

Also neutral white versus cool white plays a part in how much you blind a person. The eyes don't like cool white, neutral white tints are more what we are naturally used to dealing with. Some try to go off about the color temp of sunlight which is bogus when it comes to LEDs. LED manufacturers are way off.

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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

RAKC Ind:

So I take it you think this lupine light is worth the money? I think this light will be good for the light I keep permanently attached to my bike. I will then have an ITUO high lumen light for the trails or when I need a lot of light.

I need is a good light to use when riding around New York City where I am not blinding everyone.

With my current LED lights I always have to constantly tilt them down and still wonder if they are blinding everyone.

The price is steep and for 900 lumens you can get that for like $30 dollars.

But if the beam pattern is really nice, maybe it is worth it to have this light.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Is a Mercedes S-Klasse worth the money? Probably not - let's look at this way: if you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it 

If you are looking for lights with a proper cutoff beam, but are not too picky, then something basic would most certainly suffice. Look around here for what you can actually buy in the US: headlight beams from Peter White Cycles
or more specifically
Busch&Muller battery powered bicycle lights
(if you don't have a dynamo hub)
Another light with a similar fame is the Philips Saferide, but I don't know if it's available in the US or not.
LED Bike lights Saferide BF48L20BBLX1 | Philips

These are still expensive compared to a $10 chinese flashlight, but will do the job nicely.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There's many options, don't even need to pay that kind of money for that style of beam pattern. I listed a few brands earlier that are based around the same idea. Wide beam that's not harsh on people coming towards you.

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## Speeder500 (Oct 9, 2012)

The thing is the Lupine light is so small and stays hidden with its nice mounting location. 


The other lights you mentioned are long and won't mount in front of the bike stem. I also have my control unit on top of the stem so can't mount anything there. 

This is what I like about the lupine light is that I can leave it on all the time even in the day, I don't like really having those other lights mounted on the side of the handlebar. 

I really like this lupine light as an always attached light where I can leave it on all the time I don't see any other light so small and high quality like this. Sucks that it costs so much money. I believe part of the cost is the daytime running sensor.

What I have found is that many times it is worth spending the extra money. While it costs a lot, the resale value will always be there, and it doesn't really cost you all that much more in the long run. 

The other thing is I want to install this on my electric bike so I have the available voltage for it.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Speeder500 said:


> The thing is the Lupine light is so small and stays hidden with its nice mounting location.
> 
> The other lights you mentioned are long and won't mount in front of the bike stem. I also have my control unit on top of the stem so can't mount anything there.


If you don't mind spending the bucks there is an e-bike version of the Lupine so I guess you have what you want. The B&M Ixon IQ Premium Speed looks to also be an option that might be adaptable to e-bikes. ( you would need a step-down voltage converter ). Probably not as bright as the Lupine though.

Many lamps are small enough to mount in front of the stem. If I wanted I could do this with my Ravemen CR500, no problem. . Just need a bar extender. Keep in mind there are other mounts that let you mount a lamp where the top fork screw is () see mounts for B&M lamps ) Just remember that when you mount something low you also change the dynamic of the beam pattern and more importantly have limited access to the mode buttons on the lamp. That said, using a lamp with a remote button would help if mounting a lamp in front of the stem or lower near the fork.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Are you aware that Lupine has two versions of this SL for e-bikes, for different manufacturers: Bosch and Yamaha. These are a bit cheaper because you don't have to buy the battery. I think the main difference is that these are available in 6V and 12V versions, depending on the e-bike system, whereas the battery version requires 7.2V. The 6V version provides 500 lumens. Should still be plenty 

eg. https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/led-lightsets/e-bike-lights-for-bosch/
https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/led-lightsets/e-bike-lights-for-yamaha/

btw. spot on with the resale value, again, I don't know about the US second-hand market, but in Europe, Lupine lights are highly sought after kit, keeping their value surprisingly well (considering technology depreciation). They are a bit like Apple laptops in that regard.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

If you want a be-seen light then sure, a wide beam is OK. But then you probably don't need more than a 100 lumens, even that is plenty.

The cut-off beam enables you to see reasonably far ahead while not blinding oncoming drivers. The main difference is not just the sharp cut-off (which "wide" beams don't have), but more importantly the light intensity gradient towards the top, so that when it is projected on the road it looks as homogeneous intensity for the whole area. This is the hard bit that required precisely designed and manufactured reflectors in the past (but it seems that it is now possible to get a similar effect using lenses).


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually incorrect on one point. Wide beams can have the sharp cut off vertically. Just like their reflector counterparts. It has nothing to do with beam width.

The entire point of these lights and others like them is to mimic automotive headlights which are designed not to blind the heck out of oncoming traffic.

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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually incorrect on one point. Wide beams can have the sharp cut off vertically. Just like their reflector counterparts. It has nothing to do with beam width.
> 
> The entire point of these lights and others like them is to mimic automotive headlights which are designed not to blind the heck out of oncoming traffic.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


tig, I think you might have misunderstood what he was referring to. I think rad was referring to a normal bike light ( conical beam pattern ) that is also using a wide lens. As we already know, no problem having a wide beam pattern for a lamp that is also "designed" for cutoff. Rad does make the point that some of the better lamps designed for cut-off do a better job at manipulating the available light so that most of the light is thrown to the front of the beam pattern ( where it should be ) with a gradual tapering of the intensity as you go back towards the bike. This of course was not so easily done in the past but fortunately for us the manufacturers that have tried are getting better at it.

I think Lupine will sell a lot of the SL type lamps. Perhaps the price will go down once they have been around for a while. Thankfully, when it comes to lamps with a cut-off beam pattern, there are some lesser expensive options.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ah ok cat, ya I didn't think of that part, "wide angle" as what we are used to. Not as in beam pattern but basic lens design.

Thanks for correcting that.

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## DJ Nully (Apr 19, 2017)

*IXON Space: 150 Lux from B&M*

[/I]]IXON SPACE - Bumm
StVZO compliant (that's why the brightness level is measured in Lux)
Max. brightness level: 150 Lux (> 2 hrs.)
Min. brightness level: 10 Lux (30 hrs.)
Brightness level controlled via Touch-Slider
Display shows remaining runtime in each brightness level
Powerbank mode with USB output port
No battery capacity mentioned
Suggested retail price: 199.00 €
Not yet available in Germany


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*DC power / B&M Ixon Space / Trelock LS 760*



CHnuschti said:


> Another beamshot comparison: Test: E-Bike-Scheinwerfer - Radtouren Magazin
> Note: This is a comparison for E-Bike lamps. Keep in mind, all of the shown lamps are available for E-Bike ONLY, with exception of the Lupine SL-A, which as said is available also with common battery pack, so the only battery solution for us "old-fashioned-bikers-moving-forth-by-our-own-force".


That's not correct. Every E-Bike lamp can be used on 6V/12V or 24-60V DC, depending on model/manufacturer. 
So the Supernova M99 Pro can be attached to any 36V-48V powerpack. No need to connect the CAN-bus. 
And the brand new Supernova M99 Mini Pro-25 can be powered eben with every 2A USB powerbank at 5V DC as well as the M99 Mini Pure-45.
https://supernova-lights.com/en/products/e-bike-lights-25kmh/m99-mini-pro-25/ 
https://shop.supernova-design.com/shop/product/supernova-usb-a-conection-cable-153?category=226&search=usb


DJ Nully said:


> IXON SPACE - Bumm
> StVZO compliant (that's why the brightness level is measured in Lux)
> No battery capacity mentioned
> Suggested retail price: 199.00 €


Battery capacity is 11Wh (A3 @3.7V). 
Available in january 2018.

There will be also the new Trelock LS760 in 2018 with integrated level meter. 
http://www.sloger.sk/katalogy/TRELOCK_Katalog-2018.pdf#page=6http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...l-series-discussion-1055278.html#post13383396


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