# Entry level bikepacking bike recommendation?



## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm sure this sort of question comes up frequently and is annoying but any help you're willing to offer is appreciated.

I enjoy cycling, hiking, and camping so now I'm trying to get into the world bikepacking. With the new season of bikes rolling in, I wanted to try and pick up a good deal. My budget is $1.5k-2k. Don't plan to ride any races with the bike just want to make it through some of the trails. My ideal would be something that I could reasonably make it through the Arizona Trail with. 

Still doing my research but so far it looks like a 29 or 29+ rigid frames or hardtail would be the popular option. The Salsa Fargo or Mariachi, the Specialized AWOL, and the Surly ECR or Ogre but I don't really know what I'm doing. Any pointers or specific bikes I should look into would be appreciated.


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## NesquikNinja (May 7, 2013)

I did some research on this same subject, and bought a krampus.

You can keep researching, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that all the bikes you listed are great, and you can't really go wrong. Your budget is right, your choices are in line (again based on the research I did looking into the same subject)

I bought a krampus because I just thought it was a cool, low maintenance, capable, reliable bike. I found a good one used. It's my first bike so I can't make comparisons, but I honestly think you should just get whichever fits and you like the most

One more thing:

A lot of people mention how big cushy plus tires are a substitute for suspension- this is misleading. Suspension can help with comfort and performance, but honestly squishy tires aren't going to help keep traction like suspension does. On the other hand, the wide tires help with traction especially with low pressure, and certainly make for a comfy ride. Watch some slow motion suspension videos for ANYTHING, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, and you'll see for going fast and keeping traction over rough terrain suspension works.

Rigid forks require zero maintenance and excel in ways of their own, and in the end they are the right choice for me, and probably for you as well.


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## Ivan67 (Aug 23, 2013)

Surly ECR


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## jcaino (May 26, 2007)

If you have a mountain bike already, I would use that and put the money towards gear for the time-being.

If you need a bike, I'd second the Krampus. It's been proven to be quite adept at bike packing and maintains high stoke levels when unloaded.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Thanks all for the responses! I should have mentioned, I do not currently have a mountain bike.

The ECR and Krampus seem to be pretty similar bikes. What's the real world difference between the two?


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## NesquikNinja (May 7, 2013)

Surly Krampus vs ECR - BIKEPACKING.com


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

NesquikNinja said:


> Surly Krampus vs ECR - BIKEPACKING.com


and another comparison. Sklyer used the same parts on both bikes so it's great test.

Wagonwheeled bicycle showdown ? Surly Krampus vs. ECR | Off Route

and another: https://gypsybytrade.wordpress.com/2013/12/07/dissecting-the-surly-ecr/


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I would also look at the Salsa El Mariachi.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

The biggest downside of the 29+ stuff is lack of suspension options. While bits tires make a rigid bike more compliant they do not replace suspension.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> The biggest downside of the 29+ stuff is lack of suspension options. While bits tires make a rigid bike more compliant they do not replace suspension.


How many fork options do you need? I think there are at least 4 good options now.

There is also a FS 29+ production bike.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big_papa_nuts said:


> The biggest downside of the 29+ stuff is lack of suspension options. While bits tires make a rigid bike more compliant they do not replace suspension.


Yeah, but suspension doesn't play so well with bikepacking, and the stiction in active suspension systems does nothing to smooth out higher speed vibration. True you can bomb through tech faster, but for bikepacking? I'll take the frame space and smooth ride.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

bsieb said:


> Yeah, but suspension doesn't play so well with bikepacking, and the stiction in active suspension systems does nothing to smooth out higher speed vibration. True you can bomb through tech faster, but for bikepacking? I'll take the frame space and smooth ride.


Word.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

vikb said:


> How many fork options do you need? I think there are at least 4 good options now.
> 
> There is also a FS 29+ production bike.


The Magnum (80mm?) is the only fork I can think of that will fit the Krampus without special considerations. What are the other options?

I think the biggest problem with bikepacking and suspension is fear of system failure. While I think this is a valid point it's not a hard issue to fix, or at least minimize.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> The Magnum (80mm?) is the only fork I can think of that will fit the Krampus without special considerations. What are the other options?
> 
> I think the biggest problem with bikepacking and suspension is fear of system failure. While I think this is a valid point it's not a hard issue to fix, or at least minimize.


 1. The Fox 27+ fork works fine with 29+ wheels/tires with no mods and lots of clearance.

2. MRP Stage 29

3. Rock Shox RS-1

4. There are a number of Lefty options which are all proven on the trail.

5. There is the Bluto if you are okay with running 150mm front hubs.

6. The Manitou Magnum goes from 80mm to 140mm in travel.

7. If you are willing to spend 10 mins with a dremel tool you can make another 6-8 forks work and there has not been a single reported failure or incident doing this.

8. I've heard rumblings of other 27+ forks that will fit 29+ without mods like the Reba 27+.

Ultimately if you want a suspension fork on your 29+ there is no reason you can't have a quality fork that works great.

As far as failure goes I've been riding suspension bikes since ~ 1995 and never had an on the trail suspension failure. It's certainly not something I would worry about if I felt suspension was worth having on a particular tour.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

I didn't know the RS-1 would fit a + tire. Would kinda blow the budget in this case though. 

I also know that the Krampus (recommended above) has some crown clearance issue with the Bluto, and Surly won't let you run anything longer then 80mm (maybe 100mm) with a Magnum. So really only a couple options for that bike, budget and "warranty" issues considered.

Personally I have only had one field suspension failure, but that is enough to steer me away from going to far from civilization with anything air sprung.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Surly won't let you run anything longer then 80mm (maybe 100mm) with a Magnum. So really only a couple options for that bike, budget and "warranty" issues considered.


Surly specs say the Krampus is designed for a 100-120mm fork.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

vikb said:


> Surly specs say the Krampus is designed for a 100-120mm fork.


They actually say the fork is "100-120mm suspension corrected", which makes no sense if you think about it. The Magnum has a long axle to crown and Surly says the 120mm would potentially put more stress on the frame then they'd like, but double check shows the 100mm should be ok.

120mm Bluto is an option if you can find a steering stop. As well as some of the newer + specific forks I'm unfamiliar with.

But this is the point I was getting at, 29+ limits your options. The industry seems to be backing B+ so that might be a better route for a chubby bikes, but I still think "normal" tires and suspension is a fine choice.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

I've had one FS bike, an '07 Cannondale Jeykl, which was an amazing ride. Multiple rear shock failures. So much so the LBS loaned me a spare rear shock. Many ruined or cancelled rides due to rear shock. No issues with the Lefty however.
LBSs see so many FS bikes coming back in with warrantee shock and fork issues. 
Love FS bikes, just not where reliability is key.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> But this is the point I was getting at, 29+ limits your options.


Go look in the Surly Krampus thread. There are so many bikes with suspensions forks that have been rolling for years and have no issues. It's hard to call that limited suspension options. You'd have to squint pretty hard to ignore all the different suspension forks that are working for riders.

I've run a 130mm fork on my Krampus and had no issues. I'm 190lbs and the bikes was loaded. People are running up to 140mm forks on that frame and I have not heard of one problem posted.

It sounds like you are working pretty hard to limit your 29+ fork options.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

vikb said:


> Go look in the Surly Krampus thread. There are so many bikes with suspensions forks that have been rolling for years and have no issues. It's hard to call that limited suspension options. You'd have to squint pretty hard to ignore all the different suspension forks that are working for riders.
> 
> I've run a 130mm fork on my Krampus and had no issues. I'm 190lbs and the bikes was loaded. People are running up to 140mm forks on that frame and I have not heard of one problem posted.
> 
> It sounds like you are working pretty hard to limit your 29+ fork options.


I generally factor in a manufactures recommendations when deciding how to build a bike, so yes in this case I wouldn't build a Krampus with anything longer then Surly recommends even though that limits my options.

I never said you couldn't build a 29+ with a suspension fork, but there are like 6 options and most need a modification, or some sort of adaptor, or other kludge to work. Where as with a 2.4" tire I can have any of 100 forks without issue. And with a suspension fork I don't think the + tires are needed (which I won't get into the limited selection of).

But to bring this back on topic. It is my opinion that the best bike for the OP is not a 29+ with a suspension fork. I think either a standard 29" hardtail or maybe B+ hardtail would be better.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Can you fit the Fargo or Mariachi with a B+?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

deadcactus said:


> Can you fit the Fargo or Mariachi with a B+?


Yep. Here's my buddy's Fargo B+:


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## Syncro (Apr 20, 2014)

That is plus Fargo badazz. Have you ridden it? impressions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Syncro said:


> That is plus Fargo badazz. Have you ridden it? impressions?


Naw. He's a Sasquatch. I'd need a ladder to climb up on that thing. But it definitely gets the gears going at all the possibilities, doesn't it?


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Going to go test-ride the different bikes soon but right now leaning toward the Krampus.

My thought process:
Will be my only MTB so a specifically designed tourer like the Fargo seems a little too specialized.
I'm more interested in being able to cross diverse terrain than speed through quickly so I think the 29+ tires are a good option for me and probably outweigh the benefit of a front suspension.

Feel free to let me know if I'm off base.

Still, the Fargo or Mariachi fitted with a B+ is tempting...


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I wouldn't describe the Fargo as a "specialized tourer" - it can be a lot of different things, depending on how it is set up. If you look at the geometry, it is definitely a mountain bike at heart, not a typical 'touring' geometry. Very similar to the El MAr, actually. But it is also designed as a _drop-bar_ mtn. bike, which is something of an acquired taste.

Personally, I think it's a great all-around bike, and that includes everything from multi-day trips to ripping singletrack on it, but you have to like the drop bar setup.


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## bikeny (Feb 26, 2004)

Sounds like you are on the right track. If you think 27.5+ might be for you, don't buy a 29er and then try to convert it, that will limit your tire and rim width choices and may result in other issues, like too low of a bottom bracket. There are a number of hardtail 27.5+ bike out there now that would work well for bikepacking and well as general trail riding. The Jamis Dragonslayer, Advocate Hayduke, and Marin Pine Mountain come to mind. Actually, the Marin Pine Mountain 1 might be a great option. 27.5+, rigid fork, steel frame and under $1000. That leaves you some money for bikepacking bags and other gear! The best thing you can do is go for some test rides if you can find them.

Also, how tall are you? That plays into the 27.5+ versus 29+ decision a bit as well.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

bikeny said:


> Actually, the Marin Pine Mountain 1 might be a great option.


Great suggestion. I'd forgotten about the updated Pine Mtn. but it seems like a pretty sweet and versatile setup for the price.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

*My case for Krampus*

No secret than I'm biased towards the Krampus. What may derail my opinion in the eyes of others is that it's the only late model bike I've ridden, although I've been mountain biking in earnest since the late '80's. What I like about the Krampus are the short list of sacrifices for it's multiple duties. It's a blast stripped-down for ripping swoopy trails, and it's a very capable bikepacking rig. Just note how it is still a reference point for new models' reviews. Also note how custom builders are trying to improve on it (and are) but at what cost to the buyer? For me, so far, the advantages aren't worth the couple grand it would cost me for some improvements. (I'd love a Gnarvester I think, or a Jones, or a... but I digress)
Perhaps ignorance is bliss. Ride as many bikes as you can before you buy, although since I have a first gen Krampus, I bought blind and don't regret it.
I envy you your task.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Tangential question, what's a reasonable distance of single trail to cover in a day for a beginner in average shape? Is starting at 20 and building up to 60 over 3 months reasonable?


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

Seems reasonable to me, of course depends on the single-track itself. Up a pass for 20 miles? flowy? hot? wet and muddy? sharp rocks with lots of punctures? rideability vs. HAB? Give yourself some time cushion and at worst you'll make it without a sufferfest, at best you'll have time for a well deserved seegar whilst watching the sunset. (bugs don't like cigar smoke)
60 miles/day on single-track sounds like racing pace to me. Double-track or FS roads 60 seems like a good days work.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

jcaino said:


> If you have a mountain bike already, I would use that and put the money towards gear for the time-being.


+1

Reliable and comfortable enough for hours-long rides is the main criteria.

The newer and more esoteric the gear (read: 29+ tires), the less likely it is the parts will be available en route.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

A few more questions:

Do they make good tubeless 29+ tires?

How important are tubeless tires for bikepacking?

How hard is changing a fork? Can you go back and forth pretty easy or do people tend to pick one and leave it on?


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Swapping a fork is pretty easy for the most part. You will have to adjust the headset and brakes which may be a challenge at first but you will only get better at it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I don't know anyone who runs tubes in 29+, but that's me. Doubt you would return to suspension, it's an expensive joke unless you are racing for time, not great for pack space either. Hot chocolate with schnapps is possible without it.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Got to ride around on a friend's Krampus, had a blast! Definitely a fun bike. I have nothing to compare it to but it seemed lighter than I was expecting and I felt nice and stable which I have to think is due to the fat tires. Trying to be disciplined and try a few other bikes before I buy but part of me wants to just grab one and get out there.


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## Spinymouse (Jul 11, 2010)

deadcactus said:


> Got to ride around on a friend's Krampus, had a blast! Definitely a fun bike. I have nothing to compare it to but it seemed lighter than I was expecting and I felt nice and stable which I have to think is due to the fat tires. Trying to be disciplined and try a few other bikes before I buy but part of me wants to just grab one and get out there.


Are you the sort who needs to optimize his bike? If so, keep looking. If you're satisfied with a Krampus, then go ahead and buy one now.

Depends on what you enjoy: research and anticipation or immediately riding your new bike?

If you're an optimizer, be prepared to always hunger for that cool new bike that comes out next year, and the next one the year after that. Etc. Repeat.

I've never even seen a Krampus in person, but I've read so many cool bikepacking stories from others who appear extremely happy with their Krampi, that I'm sure you could be happy with one too. Especially, given the enthusiasm in your post.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Yea, I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger. I really just want to get out there and riding. The Krampus was a fun ride and it has a reputation for doing well on all the things I want out of it. I can spend the next few weeks to months trying to find an opening in my schedule to coordinate test riding some more bikes or buy a Krampus and spend that time out riding the Krampus as much as possible. It's a reasonable price for where I am right now and I don't think I'll be particularly tempted to upgrade components. If I decide another bike would be a better fit for me in a few years, I'll have more experience and financial resources to buy exactly what I want and the Krampus will still be a unique ride to keep in the stable. Don't mind me, I'm just trying to convince myself.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

My recommendation still leans to a pretty standard hardtail 29er, mostly for the versatility. Hardtail or rigid, B+ or 29 or 700, and potentially racks and fenders. The right 29er has the potential of being 5 different bikes.


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

deadcactus said:


> Yea, I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger. I really just want to get out there and riding. The Krampus was a fun ride and it has a reputation for doing well on all the things I want out of it. I can spend the next few weeks to months trying to find an opening in my schedule to coordinate test riding some more bikes or buy a Krampus and spend that time out riding the Krampus as much as possible. It's a reasonable price for where I am right now and I don't think I'll be particularly tempted to upgrade components. If I decide another bike would be a better fit for me in a few years, I'll have more experience and financial resources to buy exactly what I want and the Krampus will still be a unique ride to keep in the stable. Don't mind me, I'm just trying to convince myself.


I don't own a Krampus, but I think it's one of the smartest purchases in all of modern mountain biking. I ride a Soma Juice, but I use a Krampus fork with a 2.8" tire in the front, and I love the way it rides. I would go forth with no hesitation.


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## floorguy724 (Apr 20, 2004)

I was in the same boat in November. Not for bikepacking, but for that 1 all around MTB that could do it all and be setup SS, geared, or ? I'm a fat bike convert and am sold on bigger tires. 

I ordered a Trek Stache 5 in the beginning of 2015 and waited until November to get it. 1 ride on the Stache 5 and I knew that 29+ tires were for me! They spin up, roll over, and hold momentum like a 29er, but have the grip of a fat bike. I still ride my fat bike on group rides but prefer the overall ride of 29+ tires. 

While waiting for the Stache 5, I started looking around at steel and Ti 29+ options. After searching around, I decided on the Krampus because of the price, reviews and pure toughness out of the 4130 CroMo. 

Let me tell you, the Krampus has been everything I had hoped for and more. It's setup SS and rigid and absolutely rips anything in its way! It's my go to bike and I leave my Ti Mukluk in the garage most of the time. Good luck. 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 5


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## Jake January (Sep 12, 2014)

I decided on the Surly Troll for my next expedition bike. I prefer the fat 26" tyres over the 29ers.
Also you can run 27.5 if you want.
I figure on using the new Surly extraterrestrial 26x2.5 which have some impressive reviews. 
But also the Schwalbe big apples 26x2.35 are excellent tyres for floating over rough stuff.


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Thought I would close the loop. I did end up just diving in and getting the Krampus. I've been out for few rides and really enjoy it. So far I feel good about the purchase, though in reality I probably would have been happy with any of the bikes I was looking at. Now to work on planning some bikepacking trips.


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

Congratulations! FWIW I enjoy commuting on mine more than my road bike, even though it's all paved. Maybe 'cuz it no-hands sooo easy. Enjoy.


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

deadcactus said:


> Thought I would close the loop. I did end up just diving in and getting the Krampus. I've been out for few rides and really enjoy it. So far I feel good about the purchase, though in reality I probably would have been happy with any of the bikes I was looking at. Now to work on planning some bikepacking trips.


Glad you're enjoying it!


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## deadcactus (Jan 6, 2016)

Now that I have the bike, I'm turning my research attention to learning the maintenance and roadside repair side of things. Is there a good resource to guide me on what I should know how to do for a multi-day bike-packing trip?


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## seedub (Nov 16, 2005)

No one-stop place to find this subject. Searching this forum for your particular Q is as good a place as any IMO, as I have seen many a share-debate about most everything gear related. 
vikb has a good site https://vikapprovedblog.wordpress.com/ with many explorations of repairs and setups. I especially like the broken spoke fix/product he uses, promotes.
bikepacking.com will fuel the stoke with lots of suggestions and ideas. Bikepacking.net and many many other worthy sites are usually linked from these as well.


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