# Aggressive hardtail riders: How slack is too slack?



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I am going to pull the trigger on an angled headset for my Kona Honzo soon, and I've been agonizing over how much slacker I want it.

A little background - the bike came stock with a 68 degree HA and a 120mm fork (51mm offset). I recently replaced the fork with a 140mm Marzocchi Z2 (44mm offset). The bike handles night and day better with the new fork.?. HA should now be around 67 degrees, and the bb came up some, but there have been no downsides to that. The bike climbs just as well as it did before.

My first impulse is to get a -2 angleset, but I'm hesitant about going that far out of concern for its climbing ability on technical, steeper climbs.

My enduro bike has a 65 degree static head angle, and while I _can_ climb pretty well on it, I'll admit it's not ideal for that. Part of it, no doubt comes from having 180mm of coil suspension at both ends, and it's an older model with shorter reach than my Honzo.

I've never ridden a hardtail with a 65 degree HA before, so I'm hoping to hear your experiences. I know I would like it on the descents, some of which are very, very steep. However, it is my only bike for riding "XC" and/or long trail rides, so I don't want it to suck on climbs.

TL/DR: If I slack my Honzo out to 65 degrees, will it still climb well? Or should I set it to a more moderate 65.5 or even 66?


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

My '17 Nukeproof Scout 290 is running a 140mm Yari & I believe its HTA is 65.5°

I did have to lower the bars a spacer.

Great rip of a ride.

If my knees weren't getting old, I'd spend more time on it.



Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I have a '13 steel Honzo -- great bike, still love it. Several years ago I put a 160mm Fox 36 on it. I suppose this knocked the HA back to around 66°.
Last year I got a custom 29+ hardtail with (IIRC) a 64° HA. I can't compare these two bikes (Honzo vs custom) because there are too many other differences between the frames besides HA. In fact everything is different -- TT length, SA, chainstay length, etc. But this I do know: I'm not afraid of a 64° HA. Even less so 65°. In fact I'd say 65° is right in today's HA wheelhouse.
In other words personally I wouldn't hesitate.
=sParty


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## Thorjensen (Jun 4, 2013)

I had some of the same concerns before I bought my Bird Zero29. The bike have a 140mm fork, 63.9 degree HA, 440 CS, BB height of 301mm and a 1224WB. I have NONE what so ever issues climbing tech trails.


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## D(C) (Jun 17, 2013)

My Chromag Rootdown with 64 degree HA and 160 fork feels pretty normal and well-rounded. Hardtails get steeper with sag.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Thanks for the replies fellas. That alleviated most of my concerns. Y’all told me what I wanted to hear. 😉

Last question: How many of you stand and crank? I expect fewer issues with seated pedaling, but standing is where my enduro bike feels awkward. Probably due to shorter reach and a lot of travel, but I do like to stand and crank in certain situations on my Honzo.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Hard for me to believe that just 9 years ago I participated in my last 100 mile mountain bike race (which included 17,000' gain). I was just 58 then and stood to climb a lot. These days at 67 I don't stand to climb as much. But happy to say I still do whatever's needed to get up the hill.
Enjoy your freshly dialed machine.
=sParty


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## Thorjensen (Jun 4, 2013)

cookieMonster said:


> Thanks for the replies fellas. That alleviated most of my concerns. Y'all told me what I wanted to hear. ?
> 
> Last question: How many of you stand and crank? I expect fewer issues with seated pedaling, but standing is where my enduro bike feels awkward. Probably due to shorter reach and a lot of travel, but I do like to stand and crank in certain situations on my Honzo.


I run my dropper down as much as possible both on my HT and my FS enduro being out of the saddle as much as I can. So many of the high torque sprint climbs I stand up and ALWAYS with my forks set to open or minimum HSC. I dont find that the bike dives in the front so much that it makes climbing bad. On longer climbs i'm seated and standing pedal bursts also work just fine. 
But.... I see a different performance comparing a 130mm to a 160mm fork. If you run 25-27% sag the 160mm will ofcourse use more travel getting 25-27% sag and therefor dive a bit more pedaling up.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

The head angle itself won't be a problem. 65 is not too slack currently, at least not for bikes designed this way. The potential issue will be increasing the front center with the -2 deg angleset and longer fork, thus unbalancing the front/rear center ratio. The front wheel will move further away from the bb, while the rear will stay in the same relative place. The Honzo has very short chainstays to start with. If it's a Honzo ST with sliding dropouts you can adjust them in the longer setting to compensate.

How would the extra long front center affect handling? It may become harder to put weight on the front wheel during flat turns and steep climbs, resulting in a tendency of the front to wash out or lift. You may be able to counter that with a lower rise handlebar, or by removing a spacer under the stem, or even slightly longer stem.

On the other hand, the angleset will steepen the seat tube angleslightly , so you may gain some (seated) climbing composure back. No doubt the bike will feel safer in steep downs with the longer front center. 

Overall you may notice improvements in some areas and drawbacks in others. It could result in a bike you enjoy more, or at worse an experiment where you learn more about the effects on geometry on handling. 

Have fun if you proceed and please share your impressions!


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

[QUOTE="cookieMonster, post: 15201505, member: 238531"
A little background - the bike came stock with a 68 degree HA and a 120mm fork (51mm offset). I recently replaced the fork with a 140mm Marzocchi Z2 (44mm offset). The bike handles night and day better with the new fork.?. HA should now be around 67 degrees, and the bb came up some, but there have been no downsides to that. The bike climbs just as well as it did before.

My first impulse is to get a -2 angleset, but I'm hesitant about going that far out of concern for its climbing ability on technical, steeper climbs.

TL/DR: If I slack my Honzo out to 65 degrees, will it still climb well? Or should I set it to a more moderate 65.5 or even 66?
[/QUOTE]

I think what you're after here is an appropriate amount of "trail" in your steering geometry. By increasing the axle to crown (A-C) distance (slacking out the headtube), and reducing offset, you've increased the mechanical trail measurement. This gives a more stable (less "wheel flop") platform. You're probably just about on target with a loss of one degree after your increase in fork length. Me? I would try and hit no slacker than 66 with a 44mm offset. Of course, it really depends on what you're after, but that's a pretty good formula for a neutral bike which feels stable in a wide range of riding.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

Currently at about 65.5 on my Rootdown w/ a 150 Fork. I say go as far as you can go with your angleset, you won't regret it. Before I stumbled on the Chromag earlier this year I was looking at 2020 and earlier Honzo STs to do the exact thing you're about to do. Let us know how it goes!

-DS


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

justwan naride said:


> The head angle itself won't be a problem. 65 is not too slack currently, at least not for bikes designed this way. The potential issue will be increasing the front center with the -2 deg angleset and longer fork, thus unbalancing the front/rear center ratio. The front wheel will move further away from the bb, while the rear will stay in the same relative place. The Honzo has very short chainstays to start with. If it's a Honzo ST with sliding dropouts you can adjust them in the longer setting to compensate.


This is what I came to say. I recently sold my XL Pedalhead (65° HTA, 419mm CS) partly for this reason. The weight balance was definitely off. It felt like I was riding on the rear wheel of the bike, like driving from the backseat. It's not an issue that is solved by simply shifting your weight forward either because it the bike was still prone to dynamic weight shifts. For example, the steep STA put me in a forward position (kinda too much weight on my hands) but when the front would hit a bump on the climb my weight would shift back dramatically and cause the front to bounce or lose traction. Similarly in really tight turns the front would push. Generally, in corners it was hard to maintain the right front to rear weight distribution and stay in a good body position. All of this is made worse by the fact that I was on an XL but it's still something to consider.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

cookieMonster said:


> I am going to pull the trigger on an angled headset for my Kona Honzo soon, and I've been agonizing over how much slacker I want it.
> 
> A little background - the bike came stock with a 68 degree HA and a 120mm fork (51mm offset). I recently replaced the fork with a 140mm Marzocchi Z2 (44mm offset). The bike handles night and day better with the new fork.?. HA should now be around 67 degrees, and the bb came up some, but there have been no downsides to that. The bike climbs just as well as it did before.
> 
> My first impulse is to get a -2 angleset, but I'm hesitant about going that far out of concern for its climbing ability on technical, steeper climbs.


My current hardtail has a 62.5 deg HTA unsagged with a 160mm fork. So it's something like 64.5 deg HTA sagged. I ride lots of slow tech up and down and it's just fine. I wouldn't hesitate to get the -2 deg headset if I was you.


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## jtsimaras (Aug 1, 2011)

My 2019 Chromag Wideangle is 65 HTA with 160mm fork and STA is 76. I would not go slacker for what I use it for as a great all-around bike. It's been great at xc, climbing, steep tech, downhill, and even north shore, whistler gnarl.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I think I’m going to go with a -2 headset. If I don’t like it (doubtful), it probably wouldn’t be too hard to offload and then split the difference with a -1 instead. Most likely it will be fine for all the climbing I do.

It’s all about how fun it is on the DH sections anyway.🤘. I do like to ride uphill and regularly do 3000+ foot days, but not much that you would call ‘xc.’ I’m not a huge fan of distance just for the sake of distance; there’d better be some rowdyness in there somewhere.

This bike is already so fun and capable, it can only get more fun with a 65 degree ha, right?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

jtsimaras said:


> My 2019 Chromag Wideangle is 65 HTA with 160mm fork and STA is 76. I would not go slacker for what I use it for as a great all-around bike. It's been great at xc, climbing, steep tech, downhill, and even north shore, whistler gnarl.


I've already been amazed at what a modern hardtail can handle, and my Honzo wasn't even that modern in stock form. I've ridden the Shore a handful of times, as well as many other places in BC. That is my favorite style of riding- the steep tech (and just steep, but not necessarily tech).

We have a handful of trails that remind me of the Mt. Fromme trails, including the old school secret ones.?

I've done a few of the tamer ones on my Honzo, but it was borderline terrifying. I think with the geo mods I could see myself eventually cleaning all of them.


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## jtsimaras (Aug 1, 2011)

cookieMonster said:


> I've already been amazed at what a modern hardtail can handle, and my Honzo wasn't even that modern in stock form. I've ridden the Shore a handful of times, as well as many other places in BC. That is my favorite style of riding- the steep tech (and just steep, but not necessarily tech).
> 
> We have a handful of trails that remind me of the Mt. Fromme trails, including the old school secret ones.?
> 
> I've done a few of the tamer ones on my Honzo, but it was borderline terrifying. I think with the geo mods I could see myself eventually cleaning all of them.


Oh awesome ya great hills at North Shore --- I found some old school stuff on Mt Seymour and Cyress in the fall was a bit too extreme for my Chromag and me  Happy riding with your rig!!


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## thisnameisvalid (Nov 18, 2018)

My dartmoor primal is around 64 degrees with a 160mm pike and it feels like a pretty good. Its suited more to descending but still climbs well enough. I'd only go slacker if climbing wasn't important.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> Last question: How many of you stand and crank?


better question: what kind of weirdo doesn't?


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## Sickmak90 (May 27, 2012)

Right now I am on a HT with a 66* HT angle and 75* ST and I really like it. I am coming from a 67/73 FS and this HT climbs MUCH better and is super stable on the descents.


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## jtsimaras (Aug 1, 2011)

Sickmak90 said:


> Right now I am on a HT with a 66* HT angle and 75* ST and I really like it. I am coming from a 67/73 FS and this HT climbs MUCH better and is super stable on the descents.


That Full Susp geo smells like Giant trance territory


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Am I the only one who's not entirely sure about the geometry of my hardtail?

I have a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead with a 140mm MRP Ribbon fork. I know it's more slack than the GG geo charts, but I dunno how much.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Harold said:


> Am I the only one who's not entirely sure about the geometry of my hardtail?
> 
> I have a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead with a 140mm MRP Ribbon fork. I know it's more slack than the GG geo charts, but I dunno how much.


Probably not. I know what mine is, without me on it (it's really hard to measure HTA/STA etc when on the bike, but off of it its easy with a cell phone). It's pretty much close to the 65º HTA and 75º STA the spec sheet says.. but I'm running a 140mm pike on a paradox, and I think that's pretty much what the frame was effectively designed around. Where I differ.. and why it's close (within a degree) is I have a 42mm offset, instead of the 44mm of the fox fork and the axle to crown is 1mm longer.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> Probably not. I know what mine is, without me on it (it's really hard to measure HTA/STA etc when on the bike, but off of it its easy with a cell phone). It's pretty much close to the 65º HTA and 75º STA the spec sheet says.. but I'm running a 140mm pike on a paradox, and I think that's pretty much what the frame was effectively designed around. Where I differ.. and why it's close (within a degree) is I have a 42mm offset, instead of the 44mm of the fox fork and the axle to crown is 1mm longer.


A question I have is, does changing the offset change the head angle too? It would seem that if axle to crown remains the same, but one fork has a reduced offset, that would lift the front end a little compared to another fork with a longer offset. Probably a negligible difference to head angle though. Am I correct in this?

In other news, I've tried ordering the angle set from Works Components twice in the last two days, and each time, my bank has cancelled the order and flagged it as "possible identity theft," then locks my debit card out.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Jeff Lenosky's latest video has some relevant thoughts on front and rear center length and balance on hartails.





Also, it's well know that a hardtail's HTA gets steeper under sag but one thing I haven't heard mentioned until Jeff's video... when you shift your weight back or lift the front the FC gets longer (and the HTA gets slacker) and on a hardtail the overall wheelbase grows. When the front end gets light on a slack hardtail with a short chainstay it feels every bit as slack as the geo chart suggest. It was much harder to keep the front end weighted on my Pedalhead than on my Megatower (same HTA but 26mm longer chainstays). A lot of mountain bikers like the slack HTA/short CS hardtails because they're playful but what I think is really happening is riders like them because the front is easy to lift. A truly playful bike like a BMX has a steep HTA (74.5°-76.5°) and both ends of the bike are easy to lift and the bike feels well balanced. IMO a better playful mountain bike would feel balance front and rear, have a somewhat steeper HTA than the current trend, and the reach would be just long enough to run a stem 50mm or less. A slack HTA/short CS bike feels more stable but still doesn't manage rough terrain at speed as well as a bike with longer chainstays. Personally that's why I've moved on from them.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I think chain stay length is generally over-simplified. I say that because it's going to affect wheelbase, which is already affected by frame size. So those of us who are forced to run larger frames (and thus longer wheelbases) are less affected than someone running a small frame and that wheelbase thing, that changes a lot in terms of handling.


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## Sickmak90 (May 27, 2012)

jtsimaras said:


> That Full Susp geo smells like Giant trance territory


Close, it was a 2018 Trek Fuel EX 29er.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

cookieMonster said:


> Thanks for the replies fellas. That alleviated most of my concerns. Y'all told me what I wanted to hear.
> 
> Last question: How many of you stand and crank? I expect fewer issues with seated pedaling, but standing is where my enduro bike feels awkward. Probably due to shorter reach and a lot of travel, but I do like to stand and crank in certain situations on my Honzo.


On my AM HT I'll stand and crank occasionally... mainly smooth stuff, switchbacks, little pinches.

On technical climbs, I'll hover just above the saddle/seatpost which is 80° fully extended.

Then it's hammer time, trying to get as much momentum as I can.

It's easier to pick up the back wheel on my HT even compared with my FS rigs.

Get the front and over and pull the rear up & forward.

Cleaning really technical climbs requires extra body english as you are deflected off line.

Stay loose and light...

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Well, here she is with a -2 degree Works headset. Fork is a 140mm Marz Z2 with 44mm offset.

I just finished the install yesterday and just HAD to ride it this morning. Unfortunately it was 0 degrees (Fahrenheit) so the ride wasn't entirely enjoyable but I was able to determine this:

It climbs just as well as it did stock.

It feels amazing in the corners.

It manuals way easier.

I can't wait to ride it on dirt. ?


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## dave_rh (Jul 28, 2014)

Just saw this thread. My way of thinking is that head angle, offset and travel should go together for hardtails. 
100-120mm - 67-66.5 degrees and 51mm 
130-140 - 66-65.5 degrees and 44mm
150-160 - >65 degrees and 44mm

I actually think that 130mm is probably the sweet spot between too little travel and too much that changes geometry as it compresses


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## Thorjensen (Jun 4, 2013)

dave_rh said:


> Just saw this thread. My way of thinking is that head angle, offset and travel should go together for hardtails.
> 100-120mm - 67-66.5 degrees and 51mm
> 130-140 - 66-65.5 degrees and 44mm
> 150-160 - >65 degrees and 44mm
> ...


What if i say that a 29er with 140mm travel, 63.9 degree HA and 51offset rides flipping awazing🤤


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## JaxMustang50 (Jun 26, 2017)

FWIW my Stylus sits at 64*. I wouldn't want it any steeper. 
Take into consideration the total package. As someone else mentioned, the front center changes as well as WB. 
I'm not real familiar with the adjustible angle headsets. If you decide you went too slack, can you easily change it?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

JaxMustang50 said:


> FWIW my Stylus sits at 64*. I wouldn't want it any steeper.
> Take into consideration the total package. As someone else mentioned, the front center changes as well as WB.
> I'm not real familiar with the adjustible angle headsets. If you decide you went too slack, can you easily change it?


As far as I know, there aren't any 'adjustable' angle headsets; you just buy the one you think you want and hope for the best. Realistically though, the maximum change you can get is around 2.5 degrees.

So far, there have been absolutely no downsides to changing my Honzo from 68 to 65 with the -2 headset and +20mm fork. The thing is a beast now.


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## JaxMustang50 (Jun 26, 2017)

Ah, I see. The headset is manufactured to a specific offset.
Cool. The Honzo is a great bike. I'd bet it does feel pretty good a little slacker up front. What about stack and STA? Still feel okay?
In your photo it looks pretty good. Nice looking bike.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

JaxMustang50 said:


> Ah, I see. The headset is manufactured to a specific offset.
> Cool. The Honzo is a great bike. I'd bet it does feel pretty good a little slacker up front. What about stack and STA? Still feel okay?
> In your photo it looks pretty good. Nice looking bike.


Yeah, stack and STA still feel great. I'm still riding pure snow right now so I haven't been able to truly rally it properly, but it feels dialed. The reach shortened by about 10mm with the angled headset and I really like it a lot better than before.

With the stock 475mm reach it was very hard for me to initiate a wheelie or manual, and now it's a piece of cake.

Once the snow finally melts I'll be able to really put it through its paces and will report back.


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

JaxMustang50 said:


> I'm not real familiar with the adjustible angle headsets. If you decide you went too slack, can you easily change it?


I believe they're adjustable, in that you can install it backwards, making it a +2deg. That might be a bit much though.


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## mudfish801 (Dec 14, 2007)

cookieMonster said:


> Thanks for the replies fellas. That alleviated most of my concerns. Y'all told me what I wanted to hear. ?
> 
> Last question: How many of you stand and crank? I expect fewer issues with seated pedaling, but standing is where my enduro bike feels awkward. Probably due to shorter reach and a lot of travel, but I do like to stand and crank in certain situations on my Honzo.


hi
I ride a geometron. 62 head and of course when climbing it slackens as the rear compressed. I always stand to climb and on singletrack. 29er Lyrik. Short offset (42 I think). Climbs great. No problem with the slack front end once it's running above walking pace. 
I say try it for sure.


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## mudfish801 (Dec 14, 2007)

The slacker head will also drop your BB a little, no bad thing as the longer fork raised it.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

5 years ago the answer would have been that you would be crazy to go that slack.
5 years from now folks will probably tell you that you have to buy a completely new bike so you can go more slack.

I say what the heck, give it a try. It is just time and money and can easily be undone.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I don’t know if anyone cares about this thread, but here’s my recent development on the issue—

Long story short, I had a crack in my aluminum Honzo and was able to exchange it for a Honzo ESD frame on warranty, thanks to my local bike shop. So I swapped everything over to the ESD and have had one ride so far.

The frame has a 63 degree HA with a 150mm fork, and I’m running a 140mm fork so I’m probably sitting around 63.5-64 degrees.

It still climbs just fine.👍 And on the descents...well, it’s plain awesome.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

cookieMonster said:


> A question I have is, does changing the offset change the head angle too? It would seem that if axle to crown remains the same, but one fork has a reduced offset, that would lift the front end a little compared to another fork with a longer offset. Probably a negligible difference to head angle though. Am I correct in this?


I thought the offset was just how far the dropout was in front of the middle of the bottom (of the fork). As in you draw a real or imaginary line down the middle of the fork from the crown to the bottom of the lowers and keep going down...the offset will be the measurement of how far the dropout, thru-axle or not, is in front of that imaginary line. So if it's fairly straight out in front of that line then the height of the bike would not be affected. But again supposedly the HTA is not exactly that because most forks don't exactly follow that middle line down from the top of the head tube. The fork is a little bit behind the head tube line and the offset a little in front, so the HTA middle line would run through the bottom closer to the dropout than the middle of the fork. At least that's what the pictures show on other sites. 

Also Cookie if you haven't gotten the Works angleset yet, the Wolftooth one is supposedly better, but who knows, it was Wolftooth themselves that said it lol.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

r-rocket said:


> 5 years ago the answer would have been that you would be crazy to go that slack.
> 5 years from now folks will probably tell you that you have to buy a completely new bike so you can go more slack.
> 
> I say what the heck, give it a try. It is just time and money and can easily be undone.


One other thing I recently experienced is that a longer (larger) frame helps downhill stability way more than I ever imagined. To the point that it may be just as important as HTA; that's why some people reply with "HTA is only one part of how the bike will behave downhill." But you don't understand the 'other' parts of the stuff until you change a major variable besides HTA and then feel it yourself.

Besides that, going down to 64.5 degrees definitely affected climbing. Not that I love to climb being an exclusive flat pedal dude, but yes I noticed it. It's a pain if you are on a relatively slack bike and hit some small obstacle climbing; the front tire really has a tendency to bounce to one side.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

richj8990 said:


> I thought the offset was just how far the dropout was in front of the middle of the bottom (of the fork). As in you draw a real or imaginary line down the middle of the fork from the crown to the bottom of the lowers and keep going down...the offset will be the measurement of how far the dropout, thru-axle or not, is in front of that imaginary line. So if it's fairly straight out in front of that line then the height of the bike would not be affected. But again supposedly the HTA is not exactly that because most forks don't exactly follow that middle line down from the top of the head tube. The fork is a little bit behind the head tube line and the offset a little in front, so the HTA middle line would run through the bottom closer to the dropout than the middle of the fork. At least that's what the pictures show on other sites.
> 
> Also Cookie if you haven't gotten the Works angleset yet, the Wolftooth one is supposedly better, but who knows, it was Wolftooth themselves that said it lol.



OK a slight correction. And there is a lot of contradictory information online about how to measure HTA and offset, jeez. The fork is slightly ahead of the HTA, not behind it. Which means, and you can go to: 









GeoShift Angle Headset


What is head tube angle and why should I care? In the bicycle world, we define head tube angle (or head angle for moderate brevity) as the angle between the center axis of the frame’s head tube (also called the steering axis), and the horizontal (90° being a vertical line). It is one of the...




www.wolftoothcomponents.com





...about 60% down on the webpage to see the green line, that's the 'real' HTA pointing to the very back of the bottom of the fork lower, not between the front of the fork and the dropout. The back of the fork. That's the real HTA, but that doesn't necessarily translate 100% to how the bike will handle because you still have to deal with the offset. One person says offset cannot translate into HTA, one says every 7mm = 1 degree HTA, one says every 14mm offset = 1 degree HTA. The real answer? Probably no exact equation for offset to HTA, but qualitatively it will probably feel like 7mm more of offset is around 1 degree (more) HTA. Since it's going to start being hard to feel 0.5 degrees of HTA, and then no point in changing offset if no one ever notices. Even on here there were 'experts' back in the day, in 2004 that said more offset increases HTA. No...if you think about it, the further the axle is out from the fork, the worse the handling will be, that's just common sense. 

From Wolftooth: "There is a common misconception that increasing fork offset increases steering stability. It’s actually the exact opposite."

So that's why they make slack HTA bikes with less offset to help keep the wheel on the ground more and handle a bit better. Ex. bike is specd 66 degree HT and normally a 51mm offset. If you choose the 44mm offset option, the bike realistically would be more like 67 degree HTA in feel, and that's what counts, how the bike feels downhill and not just the numbers.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

cookieMonster said:


> I am going to pull the trigger on an angled headset for my Kona Honzo soon, and I've been agonizing over how much slacker I want it.
> 
> A little background - the bike came stock with a 68 degree HA and a 120mm fork (51mm offset). I recently replaced the fork with a 140mm Marzocchi Z2 (44mm offset). The bike handles night and day better with the new fork.?. HA should now be around 67 degrees, and the bb came up some, but there have been no downsides to that. The bike climbs just as well as it did before.
> 
> ...


changes geometry. if ok w that then its fine. MTB is highly personalized sport.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Stewiewin said:


> changes geometry. if ok w that then its fine. MTB is highly personalized sport.


The ship has sailed. I am now on a Honzo ESD which has a 62.5 degree static head angle and it works just fine for technical climbing and XC. It descends better than my old DH bikes in the late 90s.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

cookieMonster said:


> The ship has sailed. I am now on a Honzo ESD which has a 62.5 degree static head angle and it works just fine for technical climbing and XC. It descends better than my old DH bikes in the late 90s.


lmao


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Stewiewin said:


> lmao 62 is nice


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## Thorjensen (Jun 4, 2013)

When I build up my HT a few years ago I ordered my fork with an offset of 46mm but I got a 51mm. Didn't bother to send it back so I talked to the frame designer that I would install it anyways. As I recall going for more fork offset will give a faster tipping-over-point (if that make sense) than a shorter offset. Anyhoot this bike gives me some of my best mtb rides so i've stopped to bother about not having the "right" 46mm offset. Smiles on my face everytime tells the rest.
And running it 2.6" front and rear just opened Pandoras Box - FS why even bother🤪


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## mtbfoo (Aug 26, 2019)

My 2c & relevant experience comes from a 150mm 64HTA Norco Torrent HT: the HTA is "fine". The worst effect is the slightly vague steering @ low speeds, that's all, but it is to be expected with the crazy long trail values these bikes have. "Modern" steep STAs also have them pedal fine, although my Torrent @ L, could benefit from a tad longer rear center as I tended to wheelie a bit in steep, tight switchbacks. Bike feels (and is) "stupid" long anyways. 

What I - personally - don't like with super-aggressive "enduro-esque" HTs are the long-travel forks: geo changes a lot on a HT with a long fork, which is not inspiring confidence in me. I might be an exception, but I actually experimented with a 140mm travel Fork on my "150 OEM" HT, and I think it felt better on most trails I've tried it, including some "mild" blacks and the typ. blues SoCal, like Santago Oaks etc. The bike was more composed, even if the 150mm fork was 36mm and the 140 was a 34mm. 

I personally really want to try a modern geo HT designed for shorter forks, something like the Solstice 29 or even the "MX" from Neuhaus Metalworks. Solstice 29 — Neuhaus Metalworks , but not ready for the "custom frame" pricing. Not that it doesn't worth it for what it is and where it is made etc, but...not that much of a priority for me.


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

richj8990 said:


> One other thing I recently experienced is that a longer (larger) frame helps downhill stability way more than I ever imagined. To the point that it may be just as important as HTA; that's why some people reply with "HTA is only one part of how the bike will behave downhill." But you don't understand the 'other' parts of the stuff until you change a major variable besides HTA and then feel it yourself.
> 
> Besides that, going down to 64.5 degrees definitely affected climbing. Not that I love to climb being an exclusive flat pedal dude, but yes I noticed it. It's a pain if you are on a relatively slack bike and hit some small obstacle climbing; the front tire really has a tendency to bounce to one side.


That is totally true for a full suspension bike, now for a HT many people forget that the geo evolves a lot through the fork travel. While having a very slack static HA is rather recommended to end up with reasonable HA at SAG and at bottom out, long reach is just plain bad idea. I currently have a HT with a 450mm reach and my enduro is 470mm. I love riding steep stuff and tend to go on the same stages with both bikes. Never on my enduro do I feel my arms getting stretched, while it is a common occurence with my HT. Now if you go on a geo calculation web page and play with it, it all makes sense. At 20%SAG of my 150mm Yari my 65.5/445 bike becomes 67/460 and at bottom out a whooping 72.5/520. So for my next HT which will be custom it will keep the same Reach while going to a 62HA and hopefully the extra length in from of the HT provided by the extra HA angle will help remaining more centered and not get my arms stretched on the steeps. On my Enduro on the other hand I love my 470mm and would probably be happy with 480/485mm and shorter stem as HA/Reach doesn't change that much as both front and rear suspension roughly go in at the same moment.


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## MAJ88 (11 mo ago)

Depends how steep is your terrain.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Balgaroth said:


> That is totally true for a full suspension bike, now for a HT many people forget that the geo evolves a lot through the fork travel. While having a very slack static HA is rather recommended to end up with reasonable HA at SAG and at bottom out, long reach is just plain bad idea. I currently have a HT with a 450mm reach and my enduro is 470mm. I love riding steep stuff and tend to go on the same stages with both bikes. Never on my enduro do I feel my arms getting stretched, while it is a common occurence with my HT. Now if you go on a geo calculation web page and play with it, it all makes sense. At 20%SAG of my 150mm Yari my 65.5/445 bike becomes 67/460 and at bottom out a whooping 72.5/520. So for my next HT which will be custom it will keep the same Reach while going to a 62HA and hopefully the extra length in from of the HT provided by the extra HA angle will help remaining more centered and not get my arms stretched on the steeps. On my Enduro on the other hand I love my 470mm and would probably be happy with 480/485mm and shorter stem as HA/Reach doesn't change that much as both front and rear suspension roughly go in at the same moment.



IMO this is completely overblown. I have a 63.5 degree HA 470m reach HT with a 160mm fork. It was fine. Never felt like I was getting too stretched etc. I also have a 65 degree HA 460m (40mm stem+130mm fork) and 66.5 HA 450m (60mm stem+120mm fork) reach bikes. Also don't feel like I get too stretched as the fork cycles through travel. 

I understand on paper that this will happen, but in practice it doesn't seem like that big of an issue.


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

cassieno said:


> IMO this is completely overblown. I have a 63.5 degree HA 470m reach HT with a 160mm fork. It was fine. Never felt like I was getting too stretched etc. I also have a 65 degree HA 460m (40mm stem+130mm fork) and 66.5 HA 450m (60mm stem+120mm fork) reach bikes. Also don't feel like I get too stretched as the fork cycles through travel.
> 
> I understand on paper that this will happen, but in practice it doesn't seem like that big of an issue.


Out of curiosity how tall are you ? Mine feels fine on most trails but the steepest stages on which it happens frequently. I recently reduced my fork SAG and switched to a 40mm stem which seems to help but I certainly wouldn't go with much longer of a reach. Now maybe with proper HA and less risk of going over the bars this could work but testing theory isn't easy or cheap.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

5'11" with more arms / torso than legs


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## Balgaroth (Dec 14, 2021)

cassieno said:


> 5'11" with more arms / torso than legs


Exactly the same but with long legs and arms and short torso. Might be why I don't favor "super long" reach as much.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

Balgaroth said:


> ...I love riding steep stuff and tend to go on the same stages with both bikes. Never on my enduro do I feel my arms getting stretched, while it is a common occurence with my HT...


From my armchair coaching analysis 😆 it sounds like you have body/riding position issue on your HT rather than a steepening HTA issue.




cassieno said:


> IMO this is completely overblown. I have a 63.5 degree HA 470m reach HT with a 160mm fork. It was fine. Never felt like I was getting too stretched etc. I also have a 65 degree HA 460m (40mm stem+130mm fork) and 66.5 HA 450m (60mm stem+120mm fork) reach bikes. Also don't feel like I get too stretched as the fork cycles through travel.
> 
> I understand on paper that this will happen, but in practice it doesn't seem like that big of an issue.


I completely agree with this. 
As the modern HT has achieved "Enduro geometry" people have started to freak out about the geo change at bottom out or when very low into the fork travel.
In reality it isn't all that noticable because it's a split second when it does happen.
As you said, on paper there is a change but it really isn't noticable when out riding.


I have a very modern geo HT with a 160mm fork with around a static 62.5° - 63° HTA. The bike has a 525mm Reach but that number isn't the sole number that effects how it rides.
Stack and handlebar height also play into how you should be positioned over the bike.

With the newer slacker HTs staying between being centred and over the bars while riding will result in better control. Especially in the steeps.
If my arms are extended/straight while riding something steep that means I've done something wrong and I'm hanging off the back of the bike! I have terrible control of my bike in that position. I need to be on the front of the bike/over the bars to have the best control while riding steeps on my HT.

I'm tall and heavy and ride aggressively on steep terrain. I have my HT setup with a stiffer spring rate so it stays higher in its travel and because I generally ride the front of the bike. The other factor that helps with me riding steep terrain is having a tall bar height. But, that doesn't hinder the climbing that I need to do.

In relation to the thread's topic 'How slack is too slack' I think it really depends on the terrain you ride regularly.
I have yet to have a too slack HTA. In fact I think I could go slacker on my current HT. 
As HTs and FS bikes have gotten slacker and longer I've found that I have much better control riding steeper lines. I no longer feel like I'm going to eject off the front of the bike. But, I'm an outlier being that I'm a giant. Bikes actually fit me now that they've gotten long and slack and I can now feel what all the short people have been talking about when describing riding. 
Along with much longer Reach the much steeper STA have been a godsend! But that's a whole other can of worms! 🥫🪱 😆


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RideEverything said:


> As HTs and FS bikes have gotten slacker and longer I've found that I have much better control riding steeper lines.


I call BS on this. Dropper posts, short stems, 29er wheels and wider bars have made dramatically bigger effect here, vs. 3 degrees of HTA. I'll take 68 and a 190mm dropper any day over 62 degrees and no dropper.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

Jayem said:


> I call BS on this. Dropper posts, short stems, 29er wheels and wider bars have made dramatically bigger effect here, vs. 3 degrees of HTA. I'll take 68 and a 190mm dropper any day over 62 degrees and no dropper.


I do realize that a bike is a system and no one aspect totally makes up how the bike rides.
However, the topic is about 'how slack is too slack' in regards to a hardtail. And, that is how I related my response.

I have ridden early 29ers through to now with all of the things you have mentioned. And, as HTA have gotten slacker I have found they have ridden better for the terrain I ride.

I have been riding an mtb long enough that I had a regular seatpost that had a qr clamp. And, I rode steep lines with the seat lowered with narrow bars, with a steep HTA, a long-ish stem and -gasp- 26" wheels!
And, yes, all the changes you have mentioned do make the new bikes ride much better than those older bikes.

If I had to I would take a bike with a 62° HTA and no dropper _if_ that was the only option because I enjoy riding bikes.
But, I don't need to.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Threadstarter here — slacker head angles certainly help a great deal in steep situations, but of course that’s not the only change that has helped in that arena.

I’ve been riding really steep features for the last 25 years; the better portion of my riding career. Before droppers I always dropped the seat via quick release, even in the 80s. The real revolution, I would argue, has been _longer_ droppers with adapted frame geometry to get the seat thoroughly out of the way when fully slammed. That’s actually one of my favorite improvements the ESD offers over my first Honzo — a fully slammed seat is something like 4” lower than it was on the old Honzo. Regarding stems, I started using much shorter models in the late 90s, even if it made the reach too short for a lot of situations.

The thing about modern geometry is it just makes that kind of riding much less of a gamble; more predictable. The slack head angles just make the bikes respond better by leaning rather than so much steering. The whole package is really amazing— we are lucky to have such bikes!

As for the big geometry change on long travel hardtails at bottom-out — I, too, feel like that is grossly exaggerated as a concern. I run 160mm up front, giving my ESD a static HA of about 62.5 degrees. Even on rock rolls with a questionable transition at the bottom, it has never been an issue. If I ran it way too soft, maybe it’d be noticeable— but who does that?


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

IMO, the issue isn't that the head angle gets too steep under compression, it's that the bike always rotates around the rear axle (unless you lift the rear wheel off the ground). For example if you're trying to pump a quick corner while staying centered, on a hardtail the front dives which causes an unwanted weight shift. Landing both wheels at the same time trying to stay centered...the bike pitches forward. If you're trying to stay light over the rear and absorb impacts (some call this "riding the fork") then you're subject to getting bucked and the front to dive. 

All hardtails do this but the longer the fork the more the frame rotates around the rear axle. A longer travel fork still increases capability but at diminishing returns. You can compensate with riding technique to a degree but it's still a compromise. My DJ is the most natural feeling hardtail I've owned because there's so little rotation.


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