# 40+ yards of dirt and growing.



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi,

We (Middleton, WI city bike park) got about 40 yards of dirt from a project in the city. The loads are described as sandy loam, blue marl clay and mixed top soil.

Our resources are limited but we will have a long day or two of a landscaper moving it to our jump area with Bobcat and small dump truck.

I would appreciate any advice for making it all more suitable for jumps and our pump track.

Most of our construction has been with dirt reclaimed from lake dredging. It can be fine and dusty but has made well packed pump track and berms. Our loads of top soil has been prone to crumbling. Most all of our bike park is recycling and restoration. The city's goal is a mix of bike fun and oak savannah.

I will be making or buying something to screen dirt but not for this volume. Otherwise my thoughts are having our operator mix the stuff and us pull out as much as possible when it's done.

I'm also considering wrecking existing jumps to use that dirt to top this.

FYI: This is a city park so we cannot have gaps and mix wood that's often done.

Thanks for any tips.

What we got:


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

It sounds like you have a good mix of soils to use. Can you thread new features through your existing trail and then move parts of the old, fine soil over to top and finish as you go? So there is still riding, plus expectation? The dry powder top could be bonded to the more damp fill with water and then live off the fill to keep it more solid. Clay acts as a great molding material and also drain base. Wham it in with some fine powder over it (like flour on fresh pastry or pasta) to prevent stiction. The rest could be just compacted into the berms and jumps to act as fill.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Ridnparadise said:


> It sounds like you have a good mix of soils to use. Can you thread new features through your existing trail and then move parts of the old, fine soil over to top and finish as you go? So there is still riding, plus expectation? The dry powder top could be bonded to the more damp fill with water and then live off the fill to keep it more solid. Clay acts as a great molding material and also drain base. Wham it in with some fine powder over it (like flour on fresh pastry or pasta) to prevent stiction. The rest could be just compacted into the berms and jumps to act as fill.


Thanks.

The amount of machine, truck and operator time I get from the city will dictate a lot. Same for the number of volunteers. That process will move it all from this spot to an area down hill from it. I am thinking about asking the contractor to spread it a bit before loading and have people pull out larger roots and sod before it gets moved with a small dump truck.

I am guessing two issues here may be universal - budget and volunteer labor!

I know the excitement and motivation will be around making more stuff ASAP but we have the privilege of building a city bike park and city supporting the sport so final results have to be quality. The city does not allow gaps (yet), same for piling dirt on wood that will rot.

Thanks again.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Around here (Central Texas), MTBMX trails builders tend to have spots close to rivers and creeks. Not only because of a water source, but also because the dirt tends to be better--river deposited clays/silts etc. + more vegetation = good dirt. Black farming clay tends to be a little too crumbly. Ordering BMX track dirt with the description "sandy loam with clay content" has had very mixed results on several occasions I have witnessed--often too sandy. Strangely, caliche road base looks horrible when in loose pile, but when mixed with water and compacted it becomes as solid as cement. The most durable and zero-maintenance jumps I have seen have been built with this stuff, although it is a serious pain to work with in the first place. Unless the ground is damp it is literally impossible to dig.

It sounds like you're going to have to work with your piles of dirt and just build some test jumps. There will be trial and error. Some dirt is great, some is terrible. What is the native soil in the park like, though? Have you built jumps before, there? I generally don't support "tearing down existing jumps" to get dirt--dirt is _everywhere_.

As for not having gaps.... here in Austin my crew proved that you can have a rad, fun spot with tables and rollable doubles (and rollers & berms).... wcpt random edit - spring 2010 on Vimeo .... (all hand-dug and all native dirt).


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## wisbike (May 16, 2008)

wow, that is a lot of dirt, congrats.

That's a great Idea to tear down the other jumps and use that dirt to on the top of this. Although it seems like way more work, the sandy stuff isn't going to hold up as well...and with DJ's the lips/landings have to be perfect or the jumps will suck. Also, given that I'm sure a lot of people roll the tables, you are going to want them to be especially durable....like the dirt that is on there now.

If it were me, I would take out the 4 new jumps that were added this summer, and replace them with 3.....or space them further apart. It would be cool if the landings, preferably the whole jumps, be taller - I say this because that just makes the sweet spot that much bigger on the landing and right now the sweet spot is very small. adding a little dirt in between the jumps would also be great, lessing the downslope as it is very steep for a DJ park the way it is naturally. 

I would then look into putting another jump line, even larger. Personally I would skip the berms, rollers, etc on the bigger line and make it "true" dirt jumps. just make it straight with the jumps right in a row. There seems to be a large open space to the left of the new jumps. You could fit 3 (maybe 4, but I wouldn't push it, spacing is very important) tables in there. I'm thinking like 7-8 feet tall with maybe 10 feet from lip to lip....and I would definitely try to reduce some of that natural downslope. 

I've ridden PV a couple times this year and I was surprised with how nice the new jumps are. keep it up.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

this thread has a lot about design and layout....

*DJ , Pump Track plans* 
https://forums.mtbr.com/urban-dj-park/dj-pump-track-plans-402237.html

As for "big table" consider making the landing side taller/bigger. You can imagine it as a table that slants upwards.... Or roll-able double style (some people call camel-back). A taller/bigger landing means more space for the wheelbase of your bike to land on.

As far as public dirt jump parks go... these guys in Florida did a great job. Good dirt for packing. Landing slightly higher than launch with rounded corner good case pad area.










This line at a public jump park (posted in the above thread) is well-done also.

https://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo209/ODPBuildCrew/Lair%202011/dscf1499.jpg[/IMG

][IMG]https://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo209/ODPBuildCrew/Lair%202011/dscf1492.jpg

As for the idea that berms and rollers shouldn't be a part of "true" big dirt jumps.... I would have to disagree. Sure you can have 3 sets in a row....but in addition to that, the best BMX and MTBMX trails do tend to have creative berms, rollers, waterfalls, etc.

Some of BMX's best trails spots are on TheComeUp videos.... Here's the link with them tagged. Observe closely for features, spacing, sizing and flow--while keeping in mind they're pro level trails. 
Trails | The Come Up / BMX

This big line starts out with 2 berms 
Hitler on Vimeo

TCUMTB.com also has a lot of good design-inspiration videos.
TCU mtb - Your Source For Mountain Bike Videos.

like this Whistler one 
Elements of Perfection: Dirt on Vimeo


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks for the inspiration and resources. We razed our original jumps to have that better dirt to cover the sandy stuff. Our machine operator is not a biker but knew what we were after and we got the good dirt on top of the piles he made and it's shaping up.

Several trees are removed and I feel the whole place is safer. We're also getting a good stash of logs for other building.

A few new diggers really helped make it happen faster than I imagined. We have about 300% more volume in these jumps now. We'll achieve roll-worthy (city park) and better results.


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## bradknob (Jan 25, 2011)

sick! need to talk to my city about donating dirt


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## bamacrazy (May 9, 2004)

Nice start. I'm starting my own jumps, too. I'll post When I get a little farther along...


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

bitflogger said:


> Thanks for the inspiration and resources. We razed our original jumps to have that better dirt to cover the sandy stuff. Our machine operator is not a biker but knew what we were after and we got the good dirt on top of the piles he made and it's shaping up.
> 
> Several trees are removed and I feel the whole place is safer. We're also getting a good stash of logs for other building.
> 
> A few new diggers really helped make it happen faster than I imagined. We have about 300% more volume in these jumps now. We'll achieve roll-worthy (city park) and better results.


just out of interest.... what's the gap of those jumps (how long across the top of the table) and how spaced apart are the two jumps?

there's no single right way to do trails--lots of things are rideable. 
however, certain things have been proven to work really well, like the rule-of-thumb for rhythm sections that the *distance from the top of a landing to the lip of the next jump should be roughly double the distance of the gap you just cleared*. so, 10 foot table means 20 feet to next lip. it can be a little more, like 22 or 24 (especially if you're going down-gradient)...but if you make it farther like 30 feet, you will get a feeling of 'dead space' in between jumps. rollers and waterfalls between jumps can be a good way to add fun and variety as well.

Distance between jumps - Ridemonkey.com


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

cmc4130 said:


> just out of interest.... what's the gap of those jumps (how long across the top of the table) and how spaced apart are the two jumps?
> 
> there's no single right way to do trails--lots of things are rideable.
> however, certain things have been proven to work really well, like the rule-of-thumb for rhythm sections that the *distance from the top of a landing to the lip of the next jump should be roughly double the distance of the gap you just cleared*. so, 10 foot table means 20 feet to next lip. it can be a little more, like 22 or 24 (especially if you're going down-gradient)...but if you make it farther like 30 feet, you will get a feeling of 'dead space' in between jumps. rollers and waterfalls between jumps can be a good way to add fun and variety as well.
> ...


Conventional formulas are not working here as they do on our pump track because this is on a down slope. Thus, they get bigger and taller to compensate for speed but keep rather the same rhythm as you ride them. More dirt is due tomorrow to make one of them longer addressing what I've tried to describe.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

bitflogger said:


> Conventional formulas are not working here as they do on our pump track because this is on a down slope. Thus, they get bigger and taller to compensate for speed but keep rather the same rhythm as you ride them. More dirt is due tomorrow to make one of them longer addressing what I've tried to describe.


:thumbsup:


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## Fleetdog (Jun 21, 2010)

How much do you anticipate these jumps changing in the near future? I've been out on them twice so far this week. They are a huge improvement over what was there before. I'm brand new to jumping so I only started consistently getting off the ground last night. Both nights I was out this week though I saw some other guys getting pretty high on these. 

I haven't really gotten off the ground on the first jump but it is a good shape for rolling over to get speed for the 2nd jump.

I'm jumping the 2nd one pretty consistency (not quite clearing it but getting off the ground at least) but the lip on that one is so much taller than the table top that it is a little intimidating for beginners and pretty gnarly to try and just roll over.

I love the shape of the 3rd one. It is easy to roll over if you're not confident in launching yet but it is also easy to get off the ground on even at relatively low speeds. It's also nice and wide. This is by far my favorite.

The 4th one is still pretty soft so it's hard to say exactly what it will be like. I'm not clearing the 3rd jump so my speed is low going into the 4th jump and I generally just roll over it very slowly. It is very beginner friendly though as far as being wide and relatively flat on top (no big lip).


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## tech44 (Dec 28, 2005)

cmc4130 said:


> As far as public dirt jump parks go... these guys in Florida did a great job. Good dirt for packing. Landing slightly higher than launch with rounded corner good case pad area.


Where in FL is this?


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## jbrookeiv (Jul 28, 2010)

tech44 said:


> Where in FL is this?


Same question!


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## evelyn_cates (Aug 6, 2011)

that was awesome, this will be great spot to take an photograph of people jumping 
anyway i like it very much


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Fleetdog said:


> How much do you anticipate these jumps changing in the near future? I've been out on them twice so far this week. They are a huge improvement over what was there before. I'm brand new to jumping so I only started consistently getting off the ground last night. Both nights I was out this week though I saw some other guys getting pretty high on these.
> 
> I haven't really gotten off the ground on the first jump but it is a good shape for rolling over to get speed for the 2nd jump.
> 
> ...


Hi,

The best answers I have are they change as fast as we can work on them. The city has been tremendous but the it's the volunteers who get everything buffed and polished for riding. More dirt to adjust the shape is there and more is available.

Register on the madcitydirt.com forums so people know who you are and there can be communication over work. When people give a shout on the CORP site or Facebook others usually show for some riding and work.

Now we're an IMBA chapter. Please consider joining because it's all of labor, politics and money that make this possible.

Some work will be done through the weekend but several will be helping or participating in the Pitch Black Singletrack race Saturday night through Sunday AM. The races raise money for the club and helping out is a good time if you don't race. Pitch Black is technically a race but also partially sponsored by a bar and fueled by bacon, Twinkies and beer if you so choose.

Thanks for your interest, and I look forward to meeting you.


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## Fleetdog (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm actually already on the CORP forums and have done a couple of build days/tuesday night dirt sessions so we may have met already. I'm Bin on that forum and Ben in real life.

I was really just asking out of curiosity more than actually wanting it to change much.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Things are shaping up and the place works much better than before.

Thanks for the tips and inspiration.

CORP - Madison Mountain Biking » Trails » Middleton Bike Park (CORP trail) » Capital Off Road Pathfinders


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## MattyBoyR6 (Sep 18, 2004)

Looks nice. How many riders do you see through an average weekend?


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

MattyBoyR6 said:


> Looks nice. How many riders do you see through an average weekend?


That's something we're trying to figure out. The park is ending it's 2nd season. This year's work grew the diggers and riders a lot. It's a small place. Dry and decent conditions get solo or a pair of riders coming and going throughout the day. Similar pattern for a parent or parents bringing kids. Groups of 5 - 20 show up 1 - 3 times a week when they use web, social media or texting to communicate. We had a regular meetup on Tuesday evenings in months school was out for summer. They grew to having as many as 30 show up but usually 6 to 20.

I'd like to know what good involvement is for both riders and helpers in other areas.


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