# Nightmare!!



## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

I may be facing months and months without riding or doing much of anything. On January 25, I did a long cross country plus ski trip from the Mcgowan lake trailhead up to the Caldera rim East of the Brokeoff peak in Lassen Volcanic National Park. As I skied back to the truck, I saw a low snow covered log in front of me and went for the very short jump. My left ski did fine but my right ski hit just in front of a small bump. The ski tip speared the bump and my leg was pulled back and to the outside.

Ever since, I've been trying to calm my hip down so I can ride and hike again. I suspect that skiing is out for this year given the injury and the drought.

Over time, the hip got worse, not better, and I can barely hobble around right now. I looks likely that I have cracked the socket in my hip joint.

There isn't much that can be done for this injury, I suspect, outside of hip replacement. Given the disaster that passes for a medical system in the USA (even good systems like Kaiser), I have to wait at least two weeks just to see an orthopod and get the process moving. I doubt that this will all be over before next christmas.

So, is anyone riding on a new hip? How is it working? How long were you off your bike and hiking boots?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Major bummer. Two weeks just to get seen is a big problem IMO. My mother in law broke her hip and got a upper part of her femur put in that evening. She's on medicare through Kaiser but Kaiser doesn't have ER or do surgery where she is in CO and farms it out.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

I'm dealing with pretty bad arthritis in one hip joint and at the advice of the surgeon am delaying a hip replacement until i am done with snowboarding and powerlifting. Fortunately mountain biking is one activitity I can still do pain free (other than any awkward get offs). XC skiing and skateboarding are out of the question. Hiking and backpacking are limited to maybe half what I could do when healthy. I went through a pretty bad adjustment period but have to say with some modification of activity I'm doing much better now than when diagnosed four years ago. My advice is don't jump to conclusions until you've had an MRI and consulted with a hip replacement surgeon.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Until you know what has really happened, I'd try not to worry too much... worrying causes stress, and stress leads to all kinds of other crap. Especially at our ages...


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Just keep pedaling. It will control the stress you are obviously suffering from, and keep you healthy, until such time as you decide the path of action to be taken. 
Surgery is not the only way, but it might turn out to be the best way. Since you or anybody else only have opinions right now, don't let the stress make you sick on top of everything else.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Lone Rager said:


> Major bummer. Two weeks just to get seen is a big problem IMO. My mother in law broke her hip and got a upper part of her femur put in that evening. She's on medicare through Kaiser but Kaiser doesn't have ER or do surgery where she is in CO and farms it out.


Whoops. Bad hit on Kaiser. I'm in on Tuesday. Good for Kaiser which is the best consistent care I've ever gotten. That'll only start the process but time can heal also (with stretching and careful exercise) and a bit of time in between doesn't hurt.

The hard part is low 70's, dry, blue sky sunny, dry trails, and no one out.


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## sooslow (Dec 14, 2017)

Don't know if you've seen a doctor (and/or a second opinion if first diagnosis is dire), but if you haven't I start there.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

An untreated hip injury sometimes leads to avascular necrosis. That's where the blood flow to a joint is disrupted and causes the tissue and bone in the joint to die. Definitely get to the doctor.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm scheduled for an ortho on Tuesday to get the ball rolling. My appointment is in the Vacaville medical center. You may see it on the news tonight - this is where the first untraceable corona virus case was first hospitalized. There are a dozen or so staff in quarantine right now. I'll definitely be wearing a mask and washing my hands!


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Horseshoe said:


> I'm dealing with pretty bad arthritis in one hip joint and at the advice of the surgeon am delaying a hip replacement until i am done with snowboarding and powerlifting. Fortunately mountain biking is one activitity I can still do pain free (other than any awkward get offs). XC skiing and skateboarding are out of the question. Hiking and backpacking are limited to maybe half what I could do when healthy. I went through a pretty bad adjustment period but have to say with some modification of activity I'm doing much better now than when diagnosed four years ago. My advice is don't jump to conclusions until you've had an MRI and consulted with a hip replacement surgeon.


Do you mean to wait until you don't snowboard anymore or just this season?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

telemike said:


> Whoops. Bad hit on Kaiser. I'm in on Tuesday. Good for Kaiser which is the best consistent care I've ever gotten. That'll only start the process but time can heal also (with stretching and careful exercise) and a bit of time in between doesn't hurt.
> 
> The hard part is low 70's, dry, blue sky sunny, dry trails, and no one out.


Yeah. I rode up to TWE with a bunch of Canadian seasoned citizens. You should have heard their nightmare stories regarding health care and wait times in The Great White North!
I'm on Medicare and have never had to wait more than a few days for care, when a specialist is involved in Utah. That was the case before I got on Medicare as well.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah. I rode up to TWE with a bunch of Canadian seasoned citizens. You should have heard their nightmare stories regarding health care and wait times in The Great White North!
> I'm on Medicare and have never had to wait more than a few days for care, when a specialist is involved in Utah. That was the case before I got on Medicare as well.


Same here. I'd probably be dead if I was still on for-profit health insurance. Literally.
I guess that's one way, in this Great Economy, to get rid of the "Useless Eaters".


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Radium said:


> Same here. I'd probably be dead if I was still on for-profit health insurance. Literally.
> I guess that's one way, in this Great Economy, to get rid of the "Useless Eaters".


See, and my life was saved using private insurance. When I was first directed to a doc who's specialty I did not find appropriate for my cancer diagnosis I, me, sought another doctor and thank God I had the freedom to do so.

My treatment team was awesome. Insurance was not an issue. I would rather have people motivated to help vs going somewhere with the work ethic and responsiveness of the DMV.

Much like MSU Alum's experience with Canadian's opinions, I have a large family contingent in Canada that is not pleased with the system. Rich and poor do not have the same options. Rich people that can afford to pay a private doc to get a diagnosis can significantly improve wait time. Average to poor people wait in line to even get a diagnosis.

As for the OP, a buddy in his 60's had both hips replaced about a year and a half ago. It took awhile to heal and get back into shape, but he is back on the bike doing fine. Relax, the hobby will still be there. Remember to do what the doctors tell you, but ask questions and be your own best advocate.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Still have private insurance through work. I will have to pick up the tab when I stop working the regular job. It will basically be what my house note was. The “Affordable Care Act” attempted to tax me for buying my own insurance. Every time government forces itself into a private contract the other participants lose. 

Someone has to pay the bureaucrat.
The third party that contributes nothing but coercion.
Funny thing is that invariably eventually the government forms a corrupted relationship with the business side at the customer’s expense.
Coercion aligns with Money at the expense of the individual.
Look at what government lotteries and government financial aid did to the University system. The price didn’t come down, it skyrocketed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Rich and poor do not have the same options.


That's the truth, like millions of Americans I'm a little too "rich" to qualify for Medicaid but way too poor to afford any sort of worthwhile health insurance so I just cross my fingers and try to keep the rubber side down.

A friend of mine is a Ortho surgeon and claims that hip replacements these days are an in & out, no big deal procedure.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> A friend of mine is a Ortho surgeon and claims that hip replacements these days are an in & out, no big deal procedure.


My daughter is an operating room nurse and that seems to be her observation as well.

Regarding mask for coronavirus. Don't bother, unless you have some N95's handy!
You'll be fine on the pancakes/pizza/flounder diet.....or anything else they can slide under the door.


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah. I rode up to TWE with a bunch of Canadian seasoned citizens. You should have heard their nightmare stories regarding health care and wait times in The Great White North!
> I'm on Medicare and have never had to wait more than a few days for care, when a specialist is involved in Utah. That was the case before I got on Medicare as well.


And ask those Canadians how much income tax they pay. I downloaded the BC tax forms and filled them out as if I lived there. An increase of 400 percent. That extra 30 grand A year will buy a lot of insurance.


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## YJ Bill (Jul 16, 2013)

Talked to a guy at a race. Said he was off the bike for 2 weeks after the new hip and racing after 6. Definitly easier than a knee replacement!


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

LanceWeaklegs said:


> And ask those Canadians how much income tax they pay. I downloaded the BC tax forms and filled them out as if I lived there. An increase of 400 percent. That extra 30 grand A year will buy a lot of insurance.


Insurance for my family in Colorado 15 years ago was 840 a month. Includes my employers portion. Fwiw: Alberta has a better tax program than bc. Eg. No provincial sales tax.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

The best option for the US is to adopt the "single payer, multiple provider" approach. Each American would receive a voucher for specified (and hopefully complete) coverage. That voucher could be used for any medical system that provides the complete list of coverages that is part of the voucher redemption program.

The advantages are many. Real coverage would reduce the ridiculous dependence on emergency rooms - the most expensive option imaginable. Earlier diagnosis and treatment would certainly be cheaper than waiting until the need is dire. The department of health and human services could negotiate country wide deals on drugs and medical equipment reducing American's costs to those of the other western democracies.

There are other advantages also. US businesses would no longer have to price medical care for employees into their products and services removing a great hamper to competitiveness. Medical systems would be forced into competition with each other in much of the country further reducing prices. The huge share that goes to the insurance companies and other middlemen would be eliminated and a premium would be placed on efficient administration.

Note that we have the most expensive medical system in the developed world. Its success, measured in outcomes for patients, is so bad that you will get carpal tunnel syndrome just scrolling down the list to find the US.

The big disadvantage is cost and taxes of course. Consider that the cost of medical care would be expected to drop significantly for individuals by reducing costs of drugs and devices and elimination of the middlemen, offsetting increases to expand coverage and improve the quality of coverage in terms of deductibles and copays.

Another disadvantage would be a need for doctors, clinics, and hospitals to change their practices to increase coordination and to provide a complete spectrum of care for their patients. All of them becoming Kaiser clones would certainly be an improvement.

Perhaps someone else, like Mexico, could pay...


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

I would also add that when many people hear the “Medicare for All” mantra, they think more free stuff, like free college, and in some cases free money every year, for all citizens. (And that’s from a country with a $1 trillion deficit). I myself was unaware that Medicare is far from free, until I got close to 65. Basic coverage for a married couple is $300 a month. And basic gets you very little, in terms of coverage. You need a supplemental plan, a drug plan, and maybe a dental/vision plan. And if you skimp on those plans and get sick or hurt (this is an mtb forum) it could be catastrophic financially. 
I know this would still be cheaper for some Obamacare people (thanks Congress), but again many believe that Medicare for all is free. Far from it. I pay $700 a month for two people.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

Permanently. Or, at least til I'm 60. I was diagnosed at 48 and the doc told me I would be back in for a second replacement in 10 years based on my current lifestyle. He recommended living my life and prescribed Naproxyn and told me to put if off as long as I can. I can't envision ever not snowboarding, although I'm slowly getting used to spending more time on the groomers than in the trees. Traditional wisdom has been that snowboarding is not recommended after a replacement (although skiing is fine), but I've since been encouraged by a doc from the U.S. ski team to get it done and not sweat it. The past six to eight months have been pretty good, but next time I hit a rough patch I may well move forward with it.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Much like MSU Alum's experience with Canadian's opinions, I have a large family contingent in Canada that is not pleased with the system. Rich and poor do not have the same options. Rich people that can afford to pay a private doc to get a diagnosis can significantly improve wait time. Average to poor people wait in line to even get a diagnosis.


Are you implying that the rich and poor in America _do_ have the same options? You do realize that in America the average and poor often just stay home because they can't afford to see a doctor at all?

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...o-cost-of-medical-care-5-survey-insights.html
_"1. A majority of respondents (61 percent) said they don't have any money saved for their healthcare expenses.

2. A similar number of respondents (64 percent) said they avoided or delayed medical care in the last year due to anticipated expenses."_

Universal healthcare systems in other industrialized countries absolutely have flaws and people rightfully complain about them. However, none of those people complaining look at America's system and say "I want _that_ instead."

Are medical bills the leading cause of bankruptcy in Canada? That's a rhetorical question, I'm pretty sure you can guess what the answer is....


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

RMCDan said:


> However, none of those people complaining look at America's system and say "I want _that_ instead."


Yeah. No one ever comes to America for health care!

I think the reason we opened up travel to Cuba was so Americans could get good health care.
I know all my friends go to Canada for MRI's and CAT scans because a 2 day wait in the U.S. is too long.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah. No one ever comes to America for health care!


Rich people who have the means to travel to the US and pay full chargemaster rates out-of-pocket are exempt from this discussion.

A guy I know married a gal from France. While her parents were in the US visiting them her Dad fell and they were worried he had broken his pelvis. A couple hours in the ER and a CT scan later and he was diagnosed with a non-displaced fx that could be treated conservatively. He just about had a heart attack when they handed him a bill for $5k. Pretty safe to say he would have rather had that accident happen at home.



MSU Alum said:


> I think the reason we opened up travel to Cuba was so Americans could get good health care.
> I know all my friends go to Canada for MRI's and CAT scans because a 2 day wait in the U.S. is too long.


You're in Utah, right?

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...oyees-to-mexico-for-lower-prescription-prices
_"Utah is paying public employees to travel to Mexico to fill their prescription medications in a program aimed at reducing the high cost of prescription drugs.

State officials say about 10 people have participated in the program, saving Utah about $225,000 in the year since it's been created. Now they're expanding to Canada."_

US citizens participating in outbound medical tourism is absolutely a thing, bigly. I know a guy who took two trips to Costa Rica for a dental implant and still spent less than he would have paid at home. He said the care he received there was superbly professional and his dentist here said the work they did was great.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So Mike, how's the leg?


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

RMCDan said:


> Are you implying that the rich and poor in America _do_ have the same options? You do realize that in America the average and poor often just stay home because they can't afford to see a doctor at all?
> 
> https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...o-cost-of-medical-care-5-survey-insights.html
> _"1. A majority of respondents (61 percent) said they don't have any money saved for their healthcare expenses.
> ...


If I lived in Canada I wouldn't be on this forum because I wouldn't be able to afford a bike with my after tax income. That's why whenever I do a Craigslist post for used bikes or parts it's always folks coming down from BC. Not to mention, should you go to Hawaii or even come to the states to buy a used crank, hope you don't get sick or hurt because you're not covered out of Canada


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## jeph (Apr 3, 2008)

I had a THR a little over a year ago. It has gone really well for me. I had osteoarthritis that was diagnosed about 2003. Probably beat it up from skiiing (alpine). They told me then to hold out and I did PT on and off for 15 years. That really helped but it got to the point it hurt a lot. I;m now riding as strong as ever. Haven't tried skiing but will (probably next year now)

I really cut back on skiing and it was vitamin I for breakfast lunch and dinner. I retired from running sports. Though I could cycle without much pain as much as I wanted. 

I had an anterior approch, there is no muscle cutting. many docs still do the posterior. the anterior is much faster recovery. I was pedaling a stationary bike in 2 weeks, riding paved trails at 6 weeks. It took a while to get my fitness back. I also had PT 2X a week. 

I'm glad I held out as long as I did. The materials in the replacement are much better. They last longer and don't have issues like the metal on metal ones. I'm 61 now and if I did it back in 2003 I may be looking at getting it done again. 

I feel like mine has gone well. I have met others and their's didn't. I would check out the doc credentials. My guy only does knees and hips. I went through Sutter santa rosa, they have an informative seminar on replacement. It's free, a little bit of a sales pitch.

Have you tried PT? It really helped out for me but our hip damage is different, but it might be worth giving that a shot for a couple months.

PM me if you want more details

Good luck
J


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Single payer doesn't eliminate the middleman.
It adds one.
This woman knows what she's talking about.
Marked improvement to lower back and hip.
Lower back pain is practically gone.
Patient, consistent, movements targeting specific areas.
It takes time but the results are incredible after years of hard work that beat my body.
Select what you can do even in small increments EVERY DAY. Consistency is more important than anything else. No weights required. The idea is slow,light, consistent.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Study this a measure of cost of health care is health care cost vs GDP. When you have a for profit system you have to have people get sick and hurt to turn a profit. COVID-19 could be a gold mine.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

RMCDan said:


> Are you implying that the rich and poor in America _do_ have the same options? You do realize that in America the average and poor often just stay home because they can't afford to see a doctor at all?
> 
> https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...o-cost-of-medical-care-5-survey-insights.html
> _"1. A majority of respondents (61 percent) said they don't have any money saved for their healthcare expenses.
> ...


1.) No, I am not implying rich do not have advantages in our system. What I was saying is that contrary to what most pointing to Canada as a model is that there is a difference there too. 
2.) People that could save tend to not save for future events, be it education, retirement, healthcare or home/car repair.
3.) I have delayed medical care in order to utilize the following year's FSA. Generally that relates to going to the eye doctor for new glasses. Big deal. Surveys can be, and are often designed to be, misleading.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

The US system is broken, period. When we have to pay inflated insurance premiums to fund pharmaceutical research so that people in other countries can get the same damn thing for 10% of the cost, something is wrong. 

I had a bad scare a few years ago. I thought I was having a heart attack, and so did the doctors. I was feeling bad all morning at work, and when I went out for an errand at lunch, I couldn't breathe, had tightness in my chest, shooting pains, etc. I went directly to the hospital and walked into the ER. They kept me overnight while they ran tests, called in three different doctors. By the next day, I felt fine, just a little weak. There was no diagnosis. One doctor said it may have been some kind of chemical exposure. 

$50,000. Fifty. Thousand. Dollars. Of course, the insurance had their "special" rate, and they ended up paying about $18K, but had I been uninsured, I would have received a bill for Fifty. Thousand. Dollars. First, there should be NO difference between what someone pays for treatment whether they have insurance or not. That is the very definition of a racket. Secondly, even $18k for three hours in the ER and a room overnight is just ridiculous. $50k is absolutely comical. There is zero rational, ethical justification for that.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The government will simply magnify the same problem. Anyone between patient and doctor has a corrupting effect. My doctor does my bloodwork etc. for 1/3 what the insurance pays. I pay him cash. My insurance is for major medical.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> The government will simply magnify the same problem. Anyone between patient and doctor has a corrupting effect. My doctor does my bloodwork etc. for 1/3 what the insurance pays. I pay him cash. My insurance is for major medical.


So you have a doctor that gives you a break on something that is a pittance. Try negotiating with the doctor when they wheel you into the ER after you crash your bike. Let us know how that goes.

Anything between the patient and the doctor has a corrupting effect? I agree. Like insurance. The ridiculous maze of who is "In Network" and who isn't, what procedures can/will be approved and how you go about getting those approvals, whether or not the doctor will prescribe a generic drug, when a visit to the ER is justified vs. when the insurance company will retroactively deny an ER claim, and on and on. The fact that a hospital will charge $10 for an ibuprofen just because they can, and then pay a drug company $1 for that ibuprofen you could get for 5 cents at a drugstore, helps no one other than those profiting from such bullshit. That kind of corruption times 1000 permeates the entire US medical system.

I myself was caught in an insurance trap once that was a racket set up by a team of spine surgeons. They built their own facility attached to a local hospital, and when I say attached, you simply walked down the hospital hallway and directly into their facility. The surgeons were "In Network" for every major insurer, but the facility WAS NOT in network. Except wait, the surgeons ONLY practiced in their facility. What this meant was that when your insurance company directed you to the "In Network" doctor, they knew damn well they weren't going to be covering the facility charge at the "In Network" rate, which saved them thousands on every surgery. Of course, this was not made clear in any step of the process, so only after the surgery when the patient (me) is hit with a huge uncovered facility charge do you find out that a doctor can be "In Network" while exclusively practicing in their own massively profitable out-of-any insurance-network facility.

This is the kind of crap that eventually is going to get someone elected that will actually pass some laws to actually reform the "healthcare" system in the US.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> So you have a doctor that gives you a break on something that is a pittance. Try negotiating with the doctor when they wheel you into the ER after you crash your bike. Let us know how that goes.


It goes well.
I repeat, my insurance is for major medical.



> Anything between the patient and the doctor has a corrupting effect? I agree. Like insurance.


Don't think I have to repeat "anything".

The insurance and lawyers put us where we are.
More lawyers and more laws won't make it better.
The doctor simply passes the savings of eliminating them, where we can, on to me. It simply illustrates how insurance can drive costs up, not down.

This took generations to corrupt, and will take at least that long to correct. Anyone who believes that lawyers will fix it is mistaken.
That $10 ibuprofen is a subsidy for people who pay nothing, and wasteful management, and yes greedy asses now and again.
Tight ship or empathy?

You never said how it turned out....


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

LanceWeaklegs said:


> And ask those Canadians how much income tax they pay. I downloaded the BC tax forms and filled them out as if I lived there. An increase of 400 percent. That extra 30 grand A year will buy a lot of insurance.


That doesn't sound right or you make an tonne of money. I pay 22.4% in Tax which includes Employment Insurance (in case I loose my job) and CPP (Canada pension) which I will receive about 8k$/year when I retire. Plus about 600$/month in Old age security when I am 65 whether I worked or not (It would be clawed back if my retirement income exceeds X amount).

With the US having a 1 Trillion $ deficit in 2019 someone better start paying more or it will be bankrupt.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

temporoad said:


> With the US having a 1 Trillion $ deficit in 2019 someone better start paying more or it will be bankrupt.


It amazes me that people who are ardent supporters of our fearless leaders are completely clueless and/or give their fearless leaders a pass on this little factoid. I thought fiscal responsibility was one of the major platform issues for Republicans?

Just so people don't stone me for posting a link to a news source they think is "Fake News":

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/deficits-exploding-and-neither-party-seems-to-care


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Deficit Spending has become bipartisan to my personal disdain....​But the politicians are responding to the voters.
Everyone wants beer and circuses......
The government promotes debt all 'round. Fannie and Freddie, Corporate tax waivers in every major and not so major city, Student Loans, Credit Cards and Cell Phones, and a major push to have everyone on a cashless company store account.

Borrow, Spend, Default, Repeat.

Work is for suckers.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

This political divide is manufactured by ALL of the media. 

Those in political power don't give a F about us. The democrats are having a meltdown over a possible Sander's presidency. 

National Defense bill to the tune of 738 billions dollars. No media coverage about it. 0 mentions by Fox (GOP) news or MSDNC. 
Votes--house 377-48 senate 86-8

U.S. military expenditures are roughly the size of the next seven largest military budgets around the world, combined.

Here we are squabbling about healthcare spending...Those in congress have some sweet healthcare though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mlx john said:


> ...Those in congress have some sweet healthcare though.


As do most people with upper level jobs.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Retired DOD healthcare here. It's funny, run by the government, It's been great for me. I'm fortunate.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Germane to this discussion (sorry about the paywall):
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing-free-hospital-bills/

"When a Denver woman spiked a high fever and felt extreme fatigue, she and her husband did what they figured was the right thing: They called their insurance company's nurse line to find out if she needed to go to a hospital, chose one that was in network and went to find out if she needed to be tested for the new coronavirus.

Then the bill came: $4,449 for an emergency room visit and a lab test, which established her symptoms were coming from seasonal flu rather than COVID-19, the disease caused by the new virus that's raising alarms globally.

The woman asked not to be identified because she was worried about repercussions at work. Her husband, Kevin Gabelman, said they took the symptoms seriously because she works with children, meaning there were lots of opportunities for her to be exposed to viruses, or to pass them on to others.

While they have insurance, they had to pay about $3,500 out of pocket to meet their deductible, even though she didn't get any treatment other than advice to go home and rest, Gabelman said.

"That's like 10% of her gross annual income for a two-hour visit," he said."

OK. Think about how this impacts the fight against disease transmission.

FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS to get tested. Are you f*&^ing kidding me?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You might want to establish a fully funded research facility staffed with a qualified team of professionals educated 4 years plus beyond high school, a team of lawyers, a team of insurance specialists, lobbyists, government officials to guide you through regulation, experts to manage clinical trials and FDA approval, a manufacture and distribution network, shareholders, a board of trustees.

You’ve got 60 days to test every case In the world that presents symptoms of the common cold or flu.

Let us know how that works for ya.....


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Now consider if you will treat the folks who drink, smoke, and have dangerous injury prone hobbies.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> You might want to establish a fully funded research facility staffed with a qualified team of professionals educated 4 years plus beyond high school, a team of lawyers, a team of insurance specialists, lobbyists, government officials to guide you through regulation, experts to manage clinical trials and FDA approval, a manufacture and distribution network, shareholders, a board of trustees.
> 
> You've got 60 days to test every case In the world that presents symptoms of the common cold or flu.
> 
> Let us know how that works for ya.....


Thanks for making a case for single-payer health care.

And I have news for you: they have had a test for this for two months, and everyone who doesn't have **** for brains has known it would get here for two months. There is no excuse for waiting until people start dying to wake up and pass a half-assed bill to close the door after the horse left the barn. If every person with a common cold or flu has to self-quarantine for two weeks, who is going to work? This isn't the common cold or flu. It is much more contagious, and more lethal than either.

Economic impact? Get back to us on this thread 30 days from now. We ain't seen nothin' yet. When every concert, every MLB game, every festival (Austin is crying that they CAN'T cancel SXSW because of the economic impact - do they think anyone is going to show up?), and every school is closed, they are hauling dead bodies out of every nursing home by the dozen, no houses are sold, no plane tickets are sold, every tourist-oriented business in the country is seeing ZERO revenue, our inaction is going to look like what it is - stupid to the point of being criminal. Seriously, the Chinese have only kind of gotten control of this because they have quarantined 400 Million people, more than the entire population of the US. Are we going to do that? We wouldn't have to if we knew who had the virus. We are actually handling this crisis worse than Iran and Italy, and look at what has happened there. They are about three weeks in front of us.

See you in 30 days, on April 5.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OzarkFathom said:


> Now consider if you will treat the folks who drink, smoke, and have dangerous injury prone hobbies.


Smokers are a demographic at risk for having severe impact from the virus. There is conjecture that the high rate of smoking in China, South Korea, Italy, and Iran has contributed to the high incidence of severe cases.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11098194/smoking-increase-coronavirus-risk-worsen-symptoms/


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

So many horror stories about healthcare. When I got sick before Xmas, before any of this Covid stuff, I went to the ER because my wife and I thought I was in grave danger. My symptoms were extremely violent shivering for hours at a time and body temp rising and falling like a fiddler's elbow. It was Sunday, and the closest one to me said they were not sure they were in my network! Go figure. We left and went to another place where they def were. I was put on a fluid IV and some bloodwork done. The results were inconclusive, and they prescribed me very heavy doses of Tylenol and Ibuprofen. The doc saw me for about 3 or 4 minutes, and the nurse managed to screw up the IV with a lot of blood outside my body. Not great care. I was discharged, and after a while got a bill for about 700 bucks for the basic care. Then I got a bill for 7000 bucks for the ****ing doctor who was out of network!!! I have refused to pay it and the saga continues. Bit like when I had a minor surgery in network a few years back, and the bill was good, until the out of network anesthetist billed for 27 grand... I refused to pay that too, and still have not. It went away. Just the fact that everyone involved, hospitals, drug cos, medical professionals etc, is gouging us all is killing our care.


Forgot to add, the stuff they prescribed caused me severe gut problems too, which developed into an infection I have only now shaken. Yaaay!


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Wow. SXSW has been cancelled, but *only* because the mayor declared an emergency and effectively banned it from happening. The organizers wanted it to go ahead. Are you kidding me? 80,000 people when you include workers, including 19,000 from outside of the US. What could go wrong?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

honkinunit said:


> Smokers are a demographic at risk for having severe impact from the virus. There is conjecture that the high rate of smoking in China, South Korea, Italy, and Iran has contributed to the high incidence of severe cases.
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11098194/smoking-increase-coronavirus-risk-worsen-symptoms/


Uh yeah that was kinda the point.
Do the masks you think the government should be giving out to everyone have a hole to let the smoke out?


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

rockerc said:


> So many horror stories about healthcare. When I got sick before Xmas, before any of this Covid stuff, I went to the ER because my wife and I thought I was in grave danger. My symptoms were extremely violent shivering for hours at a time and body temp rising and falling like a fiddler's elbow. It was Sunday, and the closest one to me said they were not sure they were in my network! Go figure. We left and went to another place where they def were. I was put on a fluid IV and some bloodwork done. The results were inconclusive, and they prescribed me very heavy doses of Tylenol and Ibuprofen. The doc saw me for about 3 or 4 minutes, and the nurse managed to screw up the IV with a lot of blood outside my body. Not great care. I was discharged, and after a while got a bill for about 700 bucks for the basic care. Then I got a bill for 7000 bucks for the ****ing doctor who was out of network!!! I have refused to pay it and the saga continues. Bit like when I had a minor surgery in network a few years back, and the bill was good, until the out of network anesthetist billed for 27 grand... I refused to pay that too, and still have not. It went away. Just the fact that everyone involved, hospitals, drug cos, medical professionals etc, is gouging us all is killing our care.
> 
> Forgot to add, the stuff they prescribed caused me severe gut problems too, which developed into an infection I have only now shaken. Yaaay!


isn't that what walk-in after hours clinics are for? I know you felt terrible, but I'd have to be a lot sicker than that to go to an ER. people (not you) that use the ER for their primary care are part of the problem. my daughter is an ER nurse and the stories are never ending.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

What is killing care is a market of provider and customer tampered into imbalance.

Demand far exceeds supply.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I have Government run health insurance through my wife (retired Public Health Service, which is under Department of Defense) Broke my wrist MTBing about 8 years ago. Received excellent care. Cost to me $0

Had an ER visit about 4 years ago for kidney stones. There was no "in network" provision. 
If I had no insurance the bill would have been $8000. Cost me a $100 deductible. 

Had a friend come down with appendicitis. He had private insurance. His cost, a $5000 deductible. 

The US managed to sign up 19 million people in 1965 when medicare was created with 1965 technology. 

I think we can do better than what we have now.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

LanceWeaklegs said:


> isn't that what walk-in after hours clinics are for? I know you felt terrible, but I'd have to be a lot sicker than that to go to an ER. people (not you) that use the ER for their primary care are part of the problem. my daughter is an ER nurse and the stories are never ending.


You have no idea of my situation or how sick I felt. My PCP and oncologist both urge me to go to the ER if nothing else available, and on a Sunday night, options are limited. With my underlying conditions, my wife and I were both concerned I could have died. I am not a hypochondriac, and in over 45 years of working have not taken one single day off for sickness.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's the truth, like millions of Americans I'm a little too "rich" to qualify for Medicaid but way too poor to afford any sort of worthwhile health insurance so I just cross my fingers and try to keep the rubber side down.
> 
> A friend of mine is a Ortho surgeon and claims that hip replacements these days are an in & out, no big deal procedure.


A friend in her mid-late 60's went on a week long canoe trip 2 weeks after her 2nd hip replacement.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Update:

I took a hit on the cartilage on my right leg and it is very damaged. I'm going to Kaiser Vallejo on Wednesday to get a cortisone injection. It's done under X ray so the doc can't do it in the office.

A cortisone shot may or may not help but it is the conservative approach that I prefer over jumping into a replacement right away. Years ago, I was able to quiet this hip down by resting and naproxyn - this one is a lot worse but we'll see.

I'm mostly on crutches right now trying to keep weight off the hip. Sleep gets hard late at night when the hip aches. The doc offered me tramadol for pain but I do not want to take any kind of opioids for more than a few days at a time so I didn't go there.

I guess that skiing is over for the year but I have hope for at least moderate biking soon. I have to because I'm going absolutely nuts! I dread the job of regaining conditioning - I'm 72 years old and it will be a bear. I'm gaining a little weight too but that's just my appetite. It kept me fueled ok when I was riding or skiing or paddling or hiking every other day but I am eating a bit much for ass sitting.

My incident was not a big spectacular crash. I just extended my leg back and out to the side as my ski tip dug in, spun, and sat on my butt. No biggie, except...

I was solo backcountry skiing at the time. I was not on the trails accessible from the McGowan lake trailhead; I was descending from the park and the caldera rim. I am glad that I was able to get out myself because I would have spent at least one night in the snow.

Have I learned my lesson? Well, I'm too slow for the young guys and all my older skiing and bike buddies have moved, died, or quit due to injury. Yes, I learned how dangerous solo travel can be and I'll remember that in the future while I ski and mtb solo in wild places.

Please, at the end of your rides, when you pop that beer, raise it and toast my recovery!


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh, and I forgot to say that we came home from the and found water bubbling up from where the well feed goes underground. So, fresh from the doc, we dug out the pipe and fixed it the next day. This activity was not doctor approved, but we need water!


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I won't use opioids for more than a few days at a time either, but I don't understand not wanting to use them at all. They work; stop the pain for a few days and then stop using them. Tramadol is pretty weak anyway, if my doctor wanted to prescribe them for the kind of pain you have I'd say "No, please give me something stronger, something that actually works."


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

when my back would flare up. id take the weekend and lay in bed and hit the tramadol. it was only ever used for a 48 hr period at a time, but it was a good stoned out feeling. thats how it hit me. i couldnt use it for a month


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

I always keep a stash of hydrocodone on hand. Before I run low I ask my doctor for a prescript when I'm going camping or hiking in some remote area far from medical help. One bottle of 15 usually lasts me 4-5 years, but if I'm hurting bad I won't hesitate to take them for 2-3 days although 1-2 is usually enough.

I've never actually tried tramadol but they didn't do much for my dog or my aunt's arthritic pain. Glad they work for some.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I was skiing with a doctor who was doing research on opioids and their overuse and alternatives. You can max out at 800 mgs of ibuprofen and tylenol, every 8 hours (NO alcohol, due to the tylenol). When I had cracked ribs, it's what I took at night and it really does work very well.

Telemike, I actually ran into the doctor while tele skiing in Utah and he was also on tele gear, so we spent the day skiing together.

Anyway, talk to your doctor, for dosing for your specific issue, but the combo is magic and it's one that the researcher was pushing as an alternative. He also pointed out that current research suggests that opioids also make you MORE sensitive to pain, once they wear off, so it's a bit of a vicious cycle.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

Talk to your doctor, but conduct your own cautious experiments. Opioids only increase pain with long-term use, like 4+ weeks, which you should absolutely avoid at all costs. Don't ever use them that long and you won't have to worry about it. I don't believe the paranoid nonsense I've heard about people becoming "addicted after 3 days". That is pure nonsense, there is no way you can become physiologically addicted in 3 days. A person makes a choice not to stop at 3 days, and then they become addicted as time wears on. I wasn't addicted after 2 weeks of Vicodin after a head-on collision with leg and shoulder injuries, but I was sure starting to like it. Fortunately the incredibly painful bout of constipation I got cured me of EVER wanting to take it more than 3 days again. But I won't hesitate to pop a couple if I'm in pain. There is a real addiction problem but they are still incredibly useful drugs when used short-term only. I can't take large doses of NSAIDS without stomach problems while Hydrocodone only makes me very mildly nauseous for a little while.

I had a cracked molar with really long roots pulled a few years ago. I asked for 2-3 pain pills and the doctor said take advil. What did i do? I went home and took one of the hydrocodones that I always keep on hand. I would MUCH rather have done it with doctor's approval. Its absolutely an idiotic overreaction when we can't even take pain pills for one day under a doctor's supervision.

sorry for the rant.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OldBlue950 said:


> Talk to your doctor, but conduct your own cautious experiments. Opioids only increase pain with long-term use, like 4+ weeks, which you should absolutely avoid at all costs. Don't ever use them that long and you won't have to worry about it. I don't believe the paranoid nonsense I've heard about people becoming "addicted after 3 days". That is pure nonsense, there is no way you can become physiologically addicted in 3 days. A person makes a choice not to stop at 3 days, and then they become addicted as time wears on. I wasn't addicted after 2 weeks of Vicodin after a head-on collision with leg and shoulder injuries, but I was sure starting to like it. Fortunately the incredibly painful bout of constipation I got cured me of EVER wanting to take it more than 3 days again. But I won't hesitate to pop a couple if I'm in pain. There is a real addiction problem but they are still incredibly useful drugs when used short-term only. I can't take large doses of NSAIDS without stomach problems while Hydrocodone only makes me very mildly nauseous for a little while.
> 
> I had a cracked molar with really long roots pulled a few years ago. I asked for 2-3 pain pills and the doctor said take advil. What did i do? I went home and took one of the hydrocodones that I always keep on hand. I would MUCH rather have done it with doctor's approval. Its absolutely an idiotic overreaction when we can't even take pain pills for one day under a doctor's supervision.
> 
> sorry for the rant.


About ten years ago I switched dentists, to a pretty large practice with 8 or 10 dentists. The first time I went in, I needed a small filling. The dentist *insisted* that he write me a prescription for 20 percocets. For a filling. Dude was no longer with the practice the next time I went in. I threw the prescription away. I'm guessing he was on some kind of pharmaceutical company incentive program.

I've had a couple of major surgeries and other incidents and I've had percocet and other opiods prescribed four or five times. I could never get more than a couple days in before the constipation wrecked me and I switched to Tylenol and Ibuprofen. I have wicked nightmares when I take opiods as well, so that is another reason to stop.

Since weed has been made legal in CO, I've known a couple of people who had surgeries or painful conditions who swear eating an edible works great. That might be what I do the next time I crash my brains out.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Seventy two? Dang, I thought you were a youngster 🙄

Well, I gave up skiing and boarding four years ago after a bad MCL injury, decide that two years of recovery was a good message.

No more strapping my feet into anything!

Good luck with the recovery.



telemike said:


> Update:
> 
> I took a hit on the cartilage on my right leg and it is very damaged. I'm going to Kaiser Vallejo on Wednesday to get a cortisone injection. It's done under X ray so the doc can't do it in the office.
> 
> ...


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> About ten years ago I switched dentists, to a pretty large practice with 8 or 10 dentists. The first time I went in, I needed a small filling. The dentist *insisted* that he write me a prescription for 20 percocets. For a filling.


I would have filled the prescription, then not gone back. When you need a painkiller, they will treat you like a drug addict and won't give you any.

Of course if you have other bad reactions, then YMMV.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

OldBlue950 said:


> I would have filled the prescription, then not gone back. When you need a painkiller, they will treat you like a drug addict and won't give you any.
> 
> Of course if you have other bad reactions, then YMMV.


We have weed for that.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

mlx john said:


> I have Government run health insurance through my wife (retired Public Health Service, which is under Department of Defense) Broke my wrist MTBing about 8 years ago. Received excellent care. Cost to me $0
> 
> Had an ER visit about 4 years ago for kidney stones. There was no "in network" provision.
> If I had no insurance the bill would have been $8000. Cost me a $100 deductible.
> ...


What you are describing is what it cost YOU, NOT what it cost.

Yes, those on government healthcare have a sweet deal, but someone is paying. Yes, the government may "reimburse" care providers at a lower rate, but what does that do? It forces care providers to raise the price to private payers to offset the loss they take on public reimbursement.

People on public pensions have a sweet income deal too. Just ask Chicago how sustainable that is.


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## OldBlue950 (Dec 1, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> We have weed for that.


Uh yeah, don't care for the paranoia much myself. Weed was good, before it got so good.


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

BlueCheesehead said:


> What you are describing is what it cost YOU, NOT what it cost.
> 
> Yes, those on government healthcare have a sweet deal, but someone is paying. Yes, the government may "reimburse" care providers at a lower rate, but what does that do? It forces care providers to raise the price to private payers to offset the loss they take on public reimbursement.
> 
> People on public pensions have a sweet income deal too. Just ask Chicago how sustainable that is.


So if I worked 60 hours a week for 34 years and moved six times, and got assaulted a number of times and guns pulled on me, I don't deserve a government pension?


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I think every American citizen should have what you call a "sweet income deal".

It's complete propaganda that our country can't afford the cost of national health care. We have no problem giving corporations a free pass on any taxes, passing ridiculous spending bills, bailing out all the banks/GM when they F up, plus the private insurance industry and the pharma companies are robbing us blind. 

We practically have No say in how are taxes are spent.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> About ten years ago I switched dentists, to a pretty large practice with 8 or 10 dentists. The first time I went in, I needed a small filling. The dentist *insisted* that he write me a prescription for 20 percocets. For a filling. Dude was no longer with the practice the next time I went in. I threw the prescription away. I'm guessing he was on some kind of pharmaceutical company incentive program.


There is no incentive program for writing generic pain medications. Seriously, did you even give this a moments thought?

You guys really need to stop watching Fox News.


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