# I feel like I should like a "modern geometry" hardtail, but I just DON'T.



## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

What am I doing wrong?

I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.

Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

wait, why do you want an xc bike for your terrain? get a hardtail with a slacker hta(think <66 deg.), a 130/150mm travel fork, 27.5 (or 29ers, whatever you prefer) tires, and a dropper. after you rode it for a bit, check in and tell us how it's going.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

I have a new Specialize Chisel build I did, geometry almost exactly same as Epic. I slapped a 120 fork on mine. Even thou have not headed to NC mountains yet, I have on my other hardtails. But I have no doubt in my mind I would be fine, of course staying in the limits of a hardtail, having ridden on it for a while seeing its capability. One of my favorites in my stable now. Chisel frame is really light as well, 1400g and shorter wheelbase, so bike is snappy feeling. One other thing with things getting slacker, which slows things down. Even with the shorter stems, especially if you where used to narrow bars before, don't feel the need you have to say with the 780-800 they spec now. Cut down slowly to you find that sweet spot. I run mine with 2.4 front and 2.35 rear tires.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


I ride Pisgah on a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead. It's a bit rowdier bike than the Chameleon, honestly. I have a blast with it in Pisgah for the most part.

I think you're encountering riding style, equipment, and possibly even skill-related hangups.

I had to adjust my riding style a bit to ride a rowdy HT in Pisgah. For one, it really pays off to get poppy off even little stuff to help float over the chattery chunk. Of course there are times you can't do that, so that's where you have to mitigate things in other ways. I'm using bigger 2.6" tires and a tire insert in the rear so I can keep my tire pressures a bit lower to absorb some of that chunky chatter but still protect my rims. Not a single rim ding in the nearly 2yrs I've been riding that bike out here.

Where skill comes into play is that you need to cut out as much of the rear-tire-smashing-into-things as much as possible. I've had to put more effort into floating my rear wheel over things and in some cases getting into high-ish speed bunny hops to avoid a square-edged rock (Spencer Gap is one trail in particular where I think about avoiding square edges leading up to the rock garden sections where you have some speed on the approach).

Riding style plays a role, too, because modern geometry bikes require you to get into the "driver's seat" so to speak and do things with intent and purpose. This is as opposed to assuming a defensive rearward position on the bike, which seems to be what old xc geometry forces you to do when things get particularly rowdy. So instead, INTENTIONALLY weight the front of the bike to maintain control. Really get deep into the range of motion when you're moving the bike around. Slacker trail bikes really like to be leaned into corners, and they'll come alive for you.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

Just to throw out a competing opinion, if you can demo some bikes, try some FS bikes. There are a handful of recent bikes that immediately come to mind that are light, a little more progressive without being over the top, and in that 120-ish rear travel range. It might turn out that they are exactly what you are looking for. Again, it would be best if you could demo, I would think some shops around Pisgah have maintained that option throughout COVID.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Like mentioned it takes time to adapt to newer geo. Riders who have ridden old school XC bikes, especially on flat tight terrain, for that last decade(s) struggle with switching to modern bikes. 

Also, you might actually prefer a modern full suspension over a hardtail. If you're used to weaving around most obstacles by carefully picking your way through then I could see that style not carrying over well to newer bikes. A full suspension might inspire you to ride over more stuff and be comfortable doing it.


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## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

diamondback1x9 said:


> wait, why do you want an xc bike for your terrain? get a hardtail with a slacker hta(think <66 deg.), a 130/150mm travel fork, 27.5 (or 29ers, whatever you prefer) tires, and a dropper. after you rode it for a bit, check in and tell us how it's going.


My Chameleon had a 140mm fork and a ~66 degree head angle because of it, 2.4" tars and a 150mm Fox Transfer dropper on it.



SSsteel4life said:


> I have a new Specialize Chisel build I did, geometry almost exactly same as Epic. I slapped a 120 fork on mine. Even thou have not headed to NC mountains yet, I have on my other hardtails. But I have no doubt in my mind I would be fine, of course staying in the limits of a hardtail, having ridden on it for a while seeing its capability. One of my favorites in my stable now. Chisel frame is really light as well, 1400g and shorter wheelbase, so bike is snappy feeling. One other thing with things getting slacker, which slows things down. Even with the shorter stems, especially if you where used to narrow bars before, don't feel the need you have to say with the 780-800 they spec now. Cut down slowly to you find that sweet spot. I run mine with 2.4 front and 2.35 rear tires.


The Chisel or Epic is a bike that I'dve bought already if I still lived in Raleigh, I'm a little nervous about having it as my only bike for WNC trail riding though, and nothing is in stock anyways, so the point is slightly moot. Anyone on this board shred their Chisel at Pisgah?



jeremy3220 said:


> Like mentioned it takes time to adapt to newer geo. Riders who have ridden old school XC bikes, especially on flat tight terrain, for that last decade(s) struggle with switching to modern bikes.
> 
> Also, you might actually prefer a modern full suspension over a hardtail. If you're used to weaving around most obstacles by carefully picking your way through then I could see that style not carrying over well to newer bikes. A full suspension might inspire you to ride over more stuff and be comfortable doing it.


I had the Chameleon for over a year before I sold it. It wasn't necessarily that it wasn't capable, it just wasn't _fun. _Climbing sucked because it was heavy and wander-y, and descending sucked because it beat the **** out of me. Eventually I just started riding my gravel/cyclocross bike everywhere because even though descending on singletrack sucks with it, climbing is actually kinda fun. I'd like to start enjoying the descents again though.

With that said, it seems like a lot of people ride FS bikes in this area. I've owned a Santa Cruz Tallboy and an older Epic back when I lived in the flatlands and I just _liked_ the hardtail more so I ditched those bikes, I'm wondering if I need one to have fun up here though. They're just _sooo _expensive. And heavy.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

modern bikes are quite long in reach and take some getting used to, and some adjustment to components to make them fit. there's a good chance the the SC Chameleon has more of an "in the bike" fit than your old bike. the actual fit between where your feet and your hands are is probably larger. you can reign this in with a shorter stem or a handlebar with more bend to it. I'd argue that many people are on bikes that are a bit too big for them for tradition and pride get in the way of riding a proper sized bike. a more compact bike is easier to control. the slack angles and low BB of most modern bikes should make it perfectly capable of delivering stable, confident performance over rough terrain, but setting the handlebar too high and too far away from your feet means the bike it fighting your for control.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree it sounds like a positioning issue, ie leaning back like you used to have to on an older geometry. Especially since you're talking about a floating front end, and being beaten up on the downs.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

msrothwe said:


> My Chameleon had a 140mm fork and a ~66 degree head angle because of it, 2.4" tars and a 150mm Fox Transfer dropper on it.
> 
> The Chisel or Epic is a bike that I'dve bought already if I still lived in Raleigh, I'm a little nervous about having it as my only bike for WNC trail riding though, and nothing is in stock anyways, so the point is slightly moot. Anyone on this board shred their Chisel at Pisgah?
> 
> ...


If you really want to stay hardtail. Have you looked into the Canfield Nimble 9? It is a very good all around bike. Very nimble, as its name. I know 3 other people that have ridden there's all over Pisgah. I have one as well, but have only been to the Dupont side with mine. Thou I have ran mine down Beach Mountain, doh, and somehow survived! For the wandering, I believe really comes down getting your bar/stem combo right for how you want it to perform.

As Mack said, with these bikes getting so big, fit is probably even more key. Really look at the Geometry numbers, if you are a person that was always between sizes and sized up, this time maybe don't.

If you are limited to one bike, then maybe best to look at a FS. And yes demo as many you can. For really key getting the right FS if you really are particular what you know you like!

Also check out Hardtail Party on YouTube. He has a real good video about how riding a modern geo bike is different then the old geo. And reviews tons of hardtails.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> I agree it sounds like a positioning issue, ie leaning back like you used to have to on an older geometry. Especially since you're talking about a floating front end, and being beaten up on the downs.


That, in addition to the fact that slacker modern bikes just take more and different inputs to make them come alive.

I'm not having any trouble getting beaten up on my hardtail on these same trails. I was actually surprised how little of that sensation I get on this bike. I've definitely felt beaten up by bikes in the past, too. Like I've been thrown into a paint shaker. What I DO feel is that I get more of a workout in my upper body and in my core than I do on a FS bike because I'm having to use my body more.

Except for stuff that everybody gets beaten up on, like descending Pilot.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Yea, that's just the initial things I noticed when I went from a more upright bike to a pretty slack one. Everything had to be relearned pretty much. I did find that I like a higher stack than I used to now, with the longer reach. It's weird, but it does help me get more on the bars, especially standing. I haven't ridden a chameleon, but I've heard enough about them that I don't think they should be too brutal (although, aluminum frames ride differently but that one I hear is pretty compliant).


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## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

Harold said:


> That, in addition to the fact that slacker modern bikes just take more and different inputs to make them come alive.
> 
> I'm not having any trouble getting beaten up on my hardtail on these same trails. I was actually surprised how little of that sensation I get on this bike. I've definitely felt beaten up by bikes in the past, too. Like I've been thrown into a paint shaker. What I DO feel is that I get more of a workout in my upper body and in my core than I do on a FS bike because I'm having to use my body more.
> 
> Except for stuff that everybody gets beaten up on, like descending Pilot.


I wonder if there's a way, through geometry, to increase steep descending confidence without making for a bike that requires so much input. I don't mind putting in a bunch of body english at the beginning of a ride, but 2 hours into a ride when its hot and humid out is a different story.


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## diamondback1x9 (Dec 21, 2020)

msrothwe said:


> I wonder if there's a way, through geometry, to increase steep descending confidence without making for a bike that requires so much input. I don't mind putting in a bunch of body english at the beginning of a ride, but 2 hours into a ride when its hot and humid out is a different story.


it becomes natural once you do it enough


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

msrothwe said:


> I wonder if there's a way, through geometry, to increase steep descending confidence without making for a bike that requires so much input. I don't mind putting in a bunch of body english at the beginning of a ride, but 2 hours into a ride when its hot and humid out is a different story.


it's all about compromises.

increased descending confidence actually comes at the expense of quicker handling. these things are diametrically opposed to each other. make a bike quicker handling and you reduce descending confidence. Make a bike a more confident descender, and it's going to be less responsive.

Really the only way to handle this is through skill, technique, and fitness. Either you ride the quicker handling bike and you use your skill, technique, and fitness to adapt on the descents, or you ride the more confident descender and use your skill, technique, and fitness to adapt on the climbs.

Trying a variety of bikes can help you find the particular combination of those things that you prefer because they'll all hit a slightly different balance on those compromises. But every bike is going to be a compromise somewhere on those things.

It's also worth noting that the way most pisgah trails are structured, climbs are generally boring. there are some exceptions, but the way most people do it around here is they just "get through" the climbing part so they can enjoy the down. So if you're blowing yourself up at the start of a ride, it's no surprise that you don't have enough in the tank to enjoy the down.


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

I'm a hardtail fan also. I like the zen nature of carefully picking lines, feeling more connected to the trail, and the complete attention required to ride a hardtail. Nothing wrong with full sus, and I'm well aware that full sus bikes go over more obstacles, and they go downhill faster. They just make me feel less connected to the trail. It's a different type of ride - personal preference. Anyway, I scored a used Epic and it's very lively. This was after trying full sus for a while and finding it too sluggish. I like a perky, quick, responsive bike, and the Epic fits the bill. I put some 2.4" maxxis "wide" tires on it. Still very responsive but the 2.4s take the edge off when trails get chattery, and they hold lines extremely well. There may well be full sus bikes with a quick feel, but I haven't ridden one yet. Rock on!


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Have you tried anything in between old school and the new bigger fork AM hardtails out there? I personally feel the same way. I have an RSD Middlechild frame sitting in my garage. I put a lot of miles on it, but at the end of the day just couldn't make myself love it. I figured that being a die hard hardtail SS guy it would be right up my alley. I think I must have spent too long on a rigid fork, and the 140mm just felt really unbalanced to me. I wasn't a fan. 

I took all of the parts off of that bike and put them on an Esker Japhy frame. 120mm fork and the geo is much more balanced feeling. It's quickly turned into my favorite bike I have ever owned. 

I will agree with a lot of others here though. If I lived in Pisgah I would probably jump to full suspension and keep the SS for lunch rides.


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## commplex (Apr 17, 2009)

msrothwe said:


> I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it


27.5 or 29 wheels? I am on a fuse at 130mm front fork with 29 wheels and it absolutely rips. I don't think I would feel the same if the wheels weren't 29. This is my first slacked out, rowdy hardtail 29er after always having XC bikes and I can say it's worth the hype. Just my two cents.

edit.. I did try the fuse with the fork at 140mm and didn't like it. Went back to 130mm after one ride.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

A down country full-susser sounds like the tonic.

Something that still feels snappy but can charge a little harder in the gnar.

Evil Following, Transition Spur, Yeti SB115, YT Izzo, Santa Cruz Blur...

The list goes on and on 

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## knl2stl (Jan 7, 2011)

This is an excellent discussion. I just gave my XC race rocket, a Gunnar Rockhound with 71.5 hta, to my son. Plus, have been doing less xc and more trail riding. Been researching hard tails with 66-68 hta. I knew that more modern geo would require me to change my riding style a bit and this thread and the Hardtail party video is giving me a much better idea of what new tricks this old dog needs to learn.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Spur?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Personally, I don't feel like a 66 HTA is really all that slack on a hardtail. I would even argue that for anything other than a XC race bike 68 is outdated. The unbalanced I started feeling was when the HTA got down around the 64-65 range and ran a bigger fork. The extremely short chainstays and long reach on bikes these days just accents the imbalance even more for me.

At the end of the day the big AM hardtails are fun going downhill, but if you're used to an old school geo like I am you're likely going to be on the fence about every other aspect of riding one. I actually enjoy climbing, but going up chunky trails on a bike with a 64 HTA, 420mm chainstays, a 140+ fork and no rear suspension to keep the back wheel planted just felt like a chore.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

True, the Chameleon is actually kinda dated. A modern AM hardtail will have something like a 3° steeper STA and 3° slacker HTA.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

jeremy3220 said:


> True, the Chameleon is actually kinda dated. A modern AM hardtail will have something like a 3° steeper STA and 3° slacker HTA.


I'd probably put the Chameleon in a different category. Bikes like the Chameleon, Japhy, Karate Monkey, etc are more about versatility and try to balance out the type of riding that most people do. The AM hardtails are a different breed, which is what I think of when someone says "modern geo" in reference to hardtails. They're made more for going down than being balanced on up and down type riding.

I don't know... I know a lot of people love them. I just found myself in this weird position where I either wanted a less aggressive geo so I could REALLY enjoy the climbs, or keep the geo but give me rear suspension so I could REALLY enjoy the downhills.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

msrothwe said:


> ...I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process...Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity.


Your sort of answered your own question there. HTs really aren't more simple. Instead of worrying about suspension and pivot maintenance, your just battering the crap out of your rear wheel and wrecking that instead.

Don't get me wrong. Like you, I love HTs and have one along with a FS. However, any little mistake (or not even a mistake) and that rear wheel is taking a beating. Just like when SS was all the rage and I thought that would be simple. Instead, it was harder to keep the EBB bottom bracket adjusted and quiet than it was just adjust a rear derailleur every now and then.

You might need to try a few different hardtails. You'll probably be happy with something that's not a full on trail bike. Not sure where you are technique wise, but these bikes like to be turned by punching down the bars and leaning the bike (not your body) while maintaining at least a jogging pace of speed even in the really tech stuff.


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## mtbfoo (Aug 26, 2019)

As others have said, the Chameleon, although a great bike still, it is on the less aggressive HT range of things: notably shorter reach, relatively steep HTA and designed for shorter travel forks.
If you were to get on an aggressive HT introduced the last couple of years, things would be "harder" to transition to.

Bikes get pretty long, you need to totally evolve to feel comfortable riding them, but boy, those things are fast.

If you are after a more playful attitude vs. bombing down berms and single tracks, I think you should consider down-sizing. Using a tool like the bikeinsights.com bike-on-bike geometry tool, will show you that bikes "of the past" are easily bigger than before. I am 182cm/5'11 & change, and I think my Norco Torrent HT @ L is probably too long for me. I would really like to try a M back to back to confirm, but 480mm reach feels a lot. Some newer bikes that go >480mm reach (enduro FS mostly), I am almost sure I would downsize.

HTA is "64" which you might think is crazy, but you need to take into account the long forks these things use now. You need to visualize that with HTs, the angles are really taken with a static, unloaded bike. As the fork compresses, the only thing to "pivot" around is the rear axle, effectively steepening the geo (both HTA and STA) as it does: just to account for a 20-25% sag on a 150mm fork like on the Torrent, you will "drop" ~35-37mm. That will bring you to a 66 deg HTA when sitting on the bike. Bomb some drops and 130-140mm "into" the fork's travel, your effective HTA at the "gnarliest" of moments is well into the 70s, making "not that different" vs. a 67 HTA frame close to the end of a 120mm fork's travel.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Carl Mega said:


> Spur?


You been living under a rock!?









Transition Bikes


Transition Bikes is a rider owned and operated mountain bike manufacturer from Bellingham Washington



www.transitionbikes.com





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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

targnik said:


> You been living under a rock!?


I'm saying this guy sounds like a good candidate for a Spur.


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## Riled (May 1, 2012)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


Your experience may also be due to jumping from a 26" to a 29". I'm assuming a hard tail with 71.5 degree HTA is older and probably a 26er? That's a big jump in wheel dynamics, if so, and can be jarring.

From what I've seen, if you want to do a hard tail in a place like Pisgah, you should think plus tire or even fat bike. Others would know better as I don't have direct experience, but I do have a FS with plus tires and can see the importance of that tire width or bigger for a hard tail on serious terrain. It's gonna be tough though because fatter tires can give you more of the"disconnected" feeling I believe you're feeling.

I think a modern XC hard tail could be your best bet, but it looks to me like they can vary significantly. Also, I think you should figure out if it was the 29" wheels giving you that feeling you don't like, since that is a key choice no matter which way you go.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


To answer the OP's question. A "modern" xc hardtail won't be as capable on the downhills as a bike with a slacker HTA. Will it give you enough confidence to make you happy and maintain the feel you are looking for? Probably. The Chameleon doesn't have a very progressive geometry for trail bikes by today's standards, so if you didn't like it after a year you should probably go to something more XCish. Or commit to learning to like more modern geometry, it might not come easy but it's definitely possible given the right mindset. Full suspension or hardtail? That is a whole other question and again, either could be enjoyed depending on a number of factors. If I could only have one bike for lots of off-road riding it would be full suspension but luckily I'm not forced to make that decision.


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## Tony b (Jan 31, 2021)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


Its not the chameleon...its you, your not riding it right......new geo is the only way to go.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeti SB115 vs Transition Spur...

Not familiar with OP's trails.

Good info in video though.

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## kiotae (Jan 1, 2018)

SSsteel4life said:


> If you really want to stay hardtail. Have you looked into the Canfield Nimble 9? It is a very good all around bike. Very nimble, as its name. I know 3 other people that have ridden there's all over Pisgah. I have one as well, but have only been to the Dupont side with mine. Thou I have ran mine down Beach Mountain, doh, and somehow survived! For the wandering, I believe really comes down getting your bar/stem combo right for how you want it to perform.
> 
> As Mack said, with these bikes getting so big, fit is probably even more key. Really look at the Geometry numbers, if you are a person that was always between sizes and sized up, this time maybe don't.
> 
> ...


I'm on a new N9 and love it. I've taken it down some pretty chunky stuff at speed and while it's certainly not a FS bike, I didn't feel beat up and was plenty fast. I think you may be asking for too much in hoping to fully match the agility of an old hardtail as well as be able to blaze down chunky terrain. Something is going to have to give. New geometry may not be for you and that's okay, but with some adaptation of riding style there's no reason a 66-ish HTA hardtail with reasonable RC and FC measurements can't be plenty nimble and still handle the downs with confidence.

As others have said, getting you weight forward is really important. If you're hanging off the back like in the old days, the bike is going to handle like crap.


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## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

Harold said:


> It's also worth noting that the way most pisgah trails are structured, climbs are generally boring. there are some exceptions, but the way most people do it around here is they just "get through" the climbing part so they can enjoy the down. So if you're blowing yourself up at the start of a ride, it's no surprise that you don't have enough in the tank to enjoy the down.


Yeah, but think about it as a percentage of total time on the bike, if you're just "getting through" 2/3rds of the ride, thats



targnik said:


> A down country full-susser sounds like the tonic.
> 
> Something that still feels snappy but can charge a little harder in the gnar.
> 
> ...


I haven't ridden any of those, but price becomes a big factor very quickly on those bikes. As a grownup with a wife and a kid and no bike shop hookups, $5-6k is pretty damn hard to justify to the family. I could probably squeak a Deore version of one of those past the CFO, but then I'm worried that at ~30 pounds or so, I'd lose the nimble feeling.
Gotta test ride though, some bikes do ride better than the sum of their parts.



Riled said:


> Your experience may also be due to jumping from a 26" to a 29". I'm assuming a hard tail with 71.5 degree HTA is older and probably a 26er? That's a big jump in wheel dynamics, if so, and can be jarring.


Both bikes were 29ers. The old XC hardtail was a 2013 Stumpjumper Carbon HT 29er.


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## attaboy (Apr 4, 2008)

Might check into a Chumba. People seem to love em. On the Sendero, you can even customize geo, a bit. Geo is much less "modern" , more "moderate "









Sendero Steel Downcountry Mountain Bike — Titanium & Steel Gravel, Mountain & All Road Bikes | Chumba


The Sendero Steel 29er / 27plus represents a balanced and versatile offering in the burgeoning downcountry category. Smooth and predictable compliance paired to precise handling equal an unparalleled ride quality.




www.chumbausa.com


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

msrothwe said:


> I haven't ridden any of those, but price becomes a big factor very quickly on those bikes. As a grownup with a wife and a kid and no bike shop hookups, $5-6k is pretty damn hard to justify to the family. I could probably squeak a Deore version of one of those past the CFO, but then I'm worried that at ~30 pounds or so, I'd lose the nimble feeling.
> Gotta test ride though, some bikes do ride better than the sum of their parts.


My "downcountry" Top Fuel 9.8 was right in that range (though looks like they raised the price to $6k - happy COVID!), well short of 30 pounds and very nimble. You don't need a boutique bike.


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## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

msrothwe said:


> Yeah, but think about it as a percentage of total time on the bike, if you're just "getting through" 2/3rds of the ride, thats
> 
> I haven't ridden any of those, but price becomes a big factor very quickly on those bikes. As a grownup with a wife and a kid and no bike shop hookups, $5-6k is pretty damn hard to justify to the family. I could probably squeak a Deore version of one of those past the CFO, but then I'm worried that at ~30 pounds or so, I'd lose the nimble feeling.
> Gotta test ride though, some bikes do ride better than the sum of their parts.
> ...


Here is just an idea, something to try until you can test more bikes. You still have this older hardtail? Try putting in some tire inserts, at least in the rear, and if you have clearance go up a little bit in tire size if possible. If You want to get really experimental, find someone that has an old external dropper to through on your bike. See how that changes the experience. It may bring the bike more bearable. Then you can save up to find your next this is it bike while you still ride the old one.


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## ugadawg (Jun 27, 2020)

msrothwe said:


> Yeah, but think about it as a percentage of total time on the bike, if you're just "getting through" 2/3rds of the ride, thats
> 
> I haven't ridden any of those, but price becomes a big factor very quickly on those bikes. As a grownup with a wife and a kid and no bike shop hookups, $5-6k is pretty damn hard to justify to the family. I could probably squeak a Deore version of one of those past the CFO, but then I'm worried that at ~30 pounds or so, I'd lose the nimble feeling.
> Gotta test ride though, some bikes do ride better than the sum of their parts.
> ...


I ride a 5010 that's 31 lbs, I think, and it's plenty nimble. I don't have any issues climbing with it either. I don't think 30 lbs is heavy when you consider all of the functionality you get now, wider tires, dropper, etc. Maybe you would like a 27.5 bike. You could still get the modern geometry, but have the more nimble handling that you're used to.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

msrothwe said:


> Yeah, but think about it as a percentage of total time on the bike, if you're just "getting through" 2/3rds of the ride, thats


How much fun is to be had climbing wash creek road, or clawhammer, avery creek rd, or even something like Point Lookout?

doesn't matter how fast you climb those, they're still just gravel roads (or paved greenway like Point Lookout). I ride them at as easy a pace as I can, and except for the steepest spots, mostly a conversational pace so that I can enjoy the stuff later in the ride that's actually fun.

Now the trails that people actually climb commonly around here like Squirrel, Laurel, Cantrell, etc are a little different story. Still, climbing them hard and fast isn't what makes climbing those trails fun (except maybe climbing the new Cantrell) for me. For that matter, descending stuff super fast isn't what's fun, either. Going fast(er) on the downs in general is fun, but part of the reason I ride a hardtail here is to have more fun at descending speeds that are slower than what a lot of people ride those trails on longer travel FS bikes. I'm not interested in strava top 10's or any of that. I like feeling the trail under my tires and getting detailed feedback about whether I rode a spot smoothly or not.

There are absolutely people who rip Pisgah on xc race bikes. But you've gotta work on your skill and your fitness pretty hard to be able to enjoy that. Maybe you're the kind of person who doesn't like the style of riding that's common here, for the gravel ups to be something you have to do but don't necessarily enjoy. If that's the kind of rider you are, I think it's going to be difficult for you to find fun on the trails here.


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## mctrials23 (Feb 27, 2021)

Feels a little bit like you are after a unicorn. A lightweight bike that pedals uphill as well as your old XC bike but also goes downhill really well and doesn't require a large change of technique. Uphill vs down is always a compromise and a bike that handles downhill really well isn't going to climb like a XC goat. 

I have a chameleon and its great fun. I assume your definition of poppy is not the same as mine because thats one thing I would say is fairly universally praised about the Chameleon. It doesn't take off like an XC whippet because its not one. 

Do you want to be flying down the downhill or picking your way down it? It seems like you want a bike that does everything your old bike did really well and also massively improves in the areas that it wasn't good at. 

If you give us some more information about how you like to decent and where the Chameleon and your old bikes differed and what you want it to feel like we can probably give you some better suggestions.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

The last Chameleon I rode was a 2019 model in size large. While it was definitely more modern than my Giant XTC 29er, I didn't like how it felt. Something about it (probably the long reach) made it very difficult to wheelie and manual. I do a lot of manualing (short manuals, albeit) while trail riding, so this was a big strike regarding the Chameleon. I ended up buying a Honzo in 2020, which on paper has a slightly steeper HA than the Chameleon, yet the bike felt more aggressive and maneuverable. I've since upgraded to a 140mm fork and a -2 degree angled headset, so my HA is now around 65 degrees. The bike feels amazing.

I'm a bit confused about your goals. I've never ridden Pisgah, but by all accounts it's pretty rough. Is it steep too? I ride a lot of extremely steep terrain, and it gets rough at times too -- but I never feel, on my Honzo, that I can't ride something due to a lack of suspension. The only difference in how I approach riding hardtails vs. how I ride my enduro bike is that I'm more mindful of avoiding square-edged hits with my rear wheel.

I rode the trail Captain Ahab in Moab last year which is very chunky. On the first day, I rode my Honzo, and the next day I went back with my enduro bike. I cleaned the whole trail on both bikes, and really had just as much fun on the hardtail, and not a great deal slower. I think you need to work on your line selection, most likely.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


Which Chameleon are you riding, 27.5+ or 29?

I can't think of a condition my Chameleon isn't good for. Meaning if I had a steeper HT and longer chain stay, how would my riding experience improve? I suppose if all I did was go fast up a hill the steeper HT would be helpful.

I think I SORT of get it. I have an FSR and Chameleon. They ride similar. With that said, both are way better than my 26" hard tail. That has a 71 degree HT I think and it is not as pleasant down a rough hill as either of my two other bikes are.

My Chameleon is 27.5+ and I do find it sluggish to pedal but otherwise, I can turn that thing up a right switchback climb super tight and avoid obstacles, like that stupid rock that will throw me off line. 
Even the straight line steep loose climbs, the hardest part is keeping the front wheel down on the really steeps in lower gears, putting power down to move forward (I'm really slow) while keeping wheel down and still also flicking the bar enough to avoid a rock.

So I guess my question is, what wheel size is your Chameleon and how does a steeper HT help you?
Not one bike suits everybody, obviously. Just curious why you feel the old bikes are better suited for rougher downhills.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Or maybe a "poppy" trail bike like a 5010.

Some of it might be in the fork tune, too. At least you could set it WFO and turn it down from there. You can add pressure and if you have a nicer fork you can play with tokens.

Bikes are definitely always getting more monster-truckish. It took me at least a year to get used to my Timberjack coming from a Y2K vintage bike and now the new version of that bike is yet again longer and slacker.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

While I have not yet experienced a modern geo bike, my thoughts are in line with what the OP is experiencing. I did have a Canfield N9 5 years ago, and felt it's weak point was seated climbing. The short stays and slack sta angle made the front end lift, and flop side to side.
What I found to be the biggest issue with modern bikes, is the guys reviewing them all say "ohh it manuals so well, and is so playful", which is fine and dandy, but what if I don't want to manual my way through life, and just want to pedal a bike around?
Locally I don't have trails that these bikes "appear" to be built for, and by that I mean climbing to descend, and not much in between. So if you have to pedal a lot to get around, then maybe these bikes just aren't suited for you.

My uneducated thought on bike geo that is a mix of modern, and not so modern would be a STA of 74*, a little bit longer reach, 67-67.5* HT angle, decent stack, and 435-445mm chainstays. That bike would climb well, be slack enough that it should be confidence inspiring going down, long enough stays that when combined with the 74* ST angle wouldn't make it feel like you are over the rear end too much.

The Salsa Spearfish, HorseThief, or Revel Ranger look promising imho.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> The last Chameleon I rode was a 2019 model in size large. While it was definitely more modern than my Giant XTC 29er, I didn't like how it felt. Something about it (probably the long reach) made it very difficult to wheelie and manual. I do a lot of manualing (short manuals, albeit) while trail riding, so this was a big strike regarding the Chameleon. I ended up buying a Honzo in 2020, which on paper has a slightly steeper HA than the Chameleon, yet the bike felt more aggressive and maneuverable. I've since upgraded to a 140mm fork and a -2 degree angled headset, so my HA is now around 65 degrees. The bike feels amazing.
> 
> I'm a bit confused about your goals. I've never ridden Pisgah, but by all accounts it's pretty rough. Is it steep too? I ride a lot of extremely steep terrain, and it gets rough at times too -- but I never feel, on my Honzo, that I can't ride something due to a lack of suspension. The only difference in how I approach riding hardtails vs. how I ride my enduro bike is that I'm more mindful of avoiding square-edged hits with my rear wheel.
> 
> I rode the trail Captain Ahab in Moab last year which is very chunky. On the first day, I rode my Honzo, and the next day I went back with my enduro bike. I cleaned the whole trail on both bikes, and really had just as much fun on the hardtail, and not a great deal slower. I think you need to work on your line selection, most likely.


Pisgah is reasonably rough, but lots of places are much burlier with bigger chunk. What Pisgah has a lot of are really fast descents with small to moderate chattery chunk. many of the burlier descents are mostly burly because they're deeply eroded (sometimes handlebar deep gullies) with repeated drops around 2ft high give or take. for the ones closer together, more ballsy riders might gap them for bigger air. that's not me, regardless of the bike I'm on.

Most trails that folks ride uphill with that stuff aren't that steep. the ones that do get particularly steep are often mandatory hike-a-bike. Any chunk they have tends to be the "root puzzle/maze" type of stuff that's all about being dynamic and very careful about traction and balance. plus, conditions are often damp. wet roots are always tough. there's plenty of rock, but being such old mountains, that rock is generally pretty rounded, gnarled among roots, and there's not many big boulders to ride off of. There are some, but mostly if the rocks aren't embedded in roots, you're riding on granite dome slickrock which might be steep, but usually isn't too technical, either.

any given loop is usually one climb up, followed by one descent. folks will often combine loops for longer rides so they have 2 or 3 climbs and descents, but the majority of those climbs are just on gravel roads. they can get steep, but they not technically demanding at all. if you enjoy going all out on climbs like that, you're going to be tapped out before you start the descents, which tend to be physically demanding on their own. folks who ride that way around here have very impressive fitness. it's definitely not most people who ride here.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

jonshonda said:


> While I have not yet experienced a modern geo bike, my thoughts are in line with what the OP is experiencing. I did have a Canfield N9 5 years ago, and felt it's weak point was seated climbing. The short stays and slack sta angle made the front end lift, and flop side to side.
> What I found to be the biggest issue with modern bikes, is the guys reviewing them all say "ohh it manuals so well, and is so playful", which is fine and dandy, but what if I don't want to manual my way through life, and just want to pedal a bike around?
> Locally I don't have trails that these bikes "appear" to be built for, and by that I mean climbing to descend, and not much in between. So if you have to pedal a lot to get around, then maybe these bikes just aren't suited for you.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are in the market for a 2016 Stumpjumper FSR. Maybe not in the 'reach' department though.
My bike:
74* STA
67.5* Head tube
437mm Chainstay

If my bike had a longer reach it would feel awkward. My Chameleon has a longer reach and it sits higher. It feels goof for the overall design but I do sort of sit ON the bike whereas on the Stumpy I'm sitting IN the bike.

I can wheel them the same distance but it takes a minute to remember the geometry of each if it's been a while, for wheelies. If I am routinely riding both, I can get off one and onto the next and just wheel it down the street.
I don't know how to manual.
I have confidence in both bikes going down a hill and have PR'd on each bike, sometimes leap frogging them.

I don't want anything with a steeper head tube angle for my downs. However I am 100% clueless how geometry works....meaning if the manufacturer could design a steep angle and still make it not endo when hitting a rock, then perhaps I would want a steep angle. haha
All I can say is that when I abandoned the 26" 71* hard tail, the very first ride I hit a drop and barely realized I had....I kept waiting for it (I'd always have to walk it) then realized that 'bump' I hit a few seconds earlier was it. By drop I mean about 2' and square edge. On the old bike I'd stab into the ground rolling over it.

I think I have the perfect bikes for me and my local conditions. Everybody elses results may vary.


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## lookiel (Nov 13, 2012)

I’m sorry I haven’t read through the whole thread but from the OP it seems like you could use a more compliant frame with a more all rounder geo, something that compliments your style of riding and your goals? Perhaps head on over to Hardtail party on youtube for some insightful reviews to get a better idea of the different modern geo hardtail options?
It’s my understanding the Chameleon is notoriously stiff and “short rear end playful”. I’m also a hardtail kinda guy and would suggest you look at frames with longish rear ends, not too slack fronts (like 68.5-69 sagged) with a wheelbase below 1200mm and a compliant but supportive (some would say springy) feel.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Like others, it just sounds like you’ve not yet adjusted to more modern geo.

It will take time, and some conscious effort at first. It won’t likely be a single “aha” moment, but probably something more gradual. Which means that even if you get to demo something, it may not immediately “click” with you

The other thing is which bike works best for you, is usually somewhat dependent on the terrain. so with moving, you have both new terrain, and likely a new bike/riding style to adjust to.

If it were me, I’d probably keep trying the chameleon for a bit, while actively trying to practice a more active/modern riding style.

If that didn’t work, then I’d probably be wanting to try a bike like the Spur, Top fuel, Tallboy, or Ripley.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> .
> 
> I'm a bit confused about your goals. I've never ridden Pisgah, but by all accounts it's pretty rough. Is it steep too? I ride a lot of extremely steep terrain, and it gets rough at times too -- but I never feel, on my Honzo, that I can't ride something due to a lack of suspension. The only difference in how I approach riding hardtails vs. how I ride my enduro bike is that I'm more mindful of avoiding square-edged hits with my rear wheel.
> 
> I rode the trail Captain Ahab in Moab last year which is very chunky. On the first day, I rode my Honzo, and the next day I went back with my enduro bike. I cleaned the whole trail on both bikes, and really had just as much fun on the hardtail, and not a great deal slower. I think you need to work on your line selection, most likely.


Ahab is an XC trail. Change my mind.

It's not steep, has zero square edged rocks, and very few drops of any real consequence. Yes, there are plenty of ledges but you just lift the back wheel and keep pedaling. Only if you go looking for the alternate lines does it become anything more than black diamond. I

Most of Pisgah's trails are old logging roads or rail spurs that fell into disrepair. They aren't particularly steep. The roots, rocks and moisture on them are the main hazards. It's 90% XC. Local builders started making things a bit more "progressive", whatever that means, a couple years ago, but the popular trails are still below 10% grade.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Ahab is an XC trail. Change my mind.
> 
> It's not steep, has zero square edged rocks, and very few drops of any real consequence. Yes, there are plenty of ledges but you just lift the back wheel and keep pedaling. Only if you go looking for the alternate lines does it become anything more than black diamond.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed on the XC comment; there are very few steep parts. Disagree on the lack of square-edged rocks. For the most part, on any of the technical parts, the rocks are stacked in a staircase manner, which is much easier on tires and rims. However, near the end of the trail, my rear wheel found one that I didn't see in time and ruined my brand new rear tire instantly. Admittedly, it was a Maxxis Ardent Race which wasn't up to the task.

In any case, I wasn't referring to Ahab as "extremely steep" -- that comment was referring to my local trails. Ahab is a walk in the park compared to those.

Back on topic, from my perspective, a very slack head angle and super long reach is not what I'd choose for low angle trails. By your description, Pisgah sounds rough but not necessarily steep. I think I'd be on a moderately aggressive bike (66-67* HA, and not extreme reach). The most modern bikes are built to be ridden fast and excel in steep conditions. They may suffer a bit on flatter, yet technical trails.


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## aflax (Oct 14, 2009)

Try to find something with short chain stays (420mm or so), steep STA (75/76), slack HA ( around 66). The 2021 steel Kona Honzo and yeti ARC look promising.


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

OP, any chance that your issues with the Chameleon were half geo and half weight related? I imagine your previous XC hardtail was pretty light, which combined with the racy geometry gave it this light and nimble feel. Have you thought about shedding weight from the wheels and tyres? 

Only mentioning this since on my own aggro ht I eventually moved to heavier casings, bigger knobs and softer rubber (due to the nature of the trails) and the bike has definitely lost some of it's instant accelareation and sporty feel. But that was a compromise I was willing to make in order to ride some of our trails. 

If you think your problems are more geo related, the Ibis DV9 is a bike that blends old with new(ish) school and takes 100-120mm forks. 68.5 head angle with 100mm fork and relatively short reach and wheelbase for current standards. Plus it's carbon, so possibly a bit lighter than your Chameleon. I think it's now discontinued, but you may find a used one or old stock somewhere.


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## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Most of Pisgah's trails are old logging roads or rail spurs that fell into disrepair. They aren't particularly steep. The roots, rocks and moisture on them are the main hazards. It's 90% XC. Local builders started making things a bit more "progressive", whatever that means, a couple years ago, but the popular trails are still below 10% grade.


Most of it isn't too steep, but there are still plenty of spots that are a bit uncomfortable on a 71.5° HTA hardtail. Black Mountain, Bennett, even Spencer Gap were the main motivations for me to go slacker. Farlow gap is also super mega steep, but I'd probably still hike down that on a 55° HTA.



justwan naride said:


> OP, any chance that your issues with the Chameleon were *half geo and half weight* related? I imagine your previous XC hardtail was pretty light, which combined with the racy geometry gave it this light and nimble feel. Have you thought about shedding weight from the wheels and tyres?


Oh I definitely think weight had something to do with it. My old stumpy hardtail was 22 pounds and the Chameleon was 29ish. I'm halfway tempted to get a Carbon Chameleon or a DV9, but now I'm gunshy.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

msrothwe said:


> Most of it isn't too steep, but there are still plenty of spots that are a bit uncomfortable on a 71.5° HTA hardtail. Black Mountain, Bennett, even Spencer Gap were the main motivations for me to go slacker. Farlow gap is also super mega steep, but I'd probably still hike down that on a 55° HTA.
> 
> Oh I definitely think weight had something to do with it. My old stumpy hardtail was 22 pounds and the Chameleon was 29ish. I'm halfway tempted to get a Carbon Chameleon or a DV9, but now I'm gunshy.


I still think a notable part of the issue is the rider. Namely, expectations. You're used to rolling xc trails where it pays off to hammer and carve. Things are tighter than they are in Pisgah and reward bikes with different handling characteristics. Pisgah doesn't really have much of that rolling flow sort of riding. Those trails do exist in WNC. Maybe Tsali would be more similar to what you're used to in that regard. Lots of the trails in Pisgah, because they follow old roads and narrow gauge rail spurs, tend to be much straighter with longer, more consistent grades. Most of the climbing you do is on roads that are still maintained (quite a few still open to public traffic), and it's just about chugging along. There's only a couple good reasons to go all out on those climbs. They're never going to be "fun" climbs. So you're either doing it for fitness/racing reasons, or you're doing it just to get it over with sooner so you can move on to the fun part. I fall into the second group more often, and because of that, I also have to measure my effort so that I don't blow myself up too early, as that cuts into my enjoyment of the ride.

Also, as has been described already, when you have a bike that suits Pisgah riding better, there are adjustments to your riding technique you need to make to be able to get the most out of it, especially on flowy xc stuff.


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## dustmonkey (Dec 31, 2020)

I built a '21 Chisel w/ Fox 32SC. I am approaching 1k miles on it and this is the most fun I've ever had on any bike. Interestingly, I am also faster on it in all conditions than I am on my FS bike.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

msrothwe said:


> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I used to have an XC hardtail (71.5° HTA!) that was awesome for my old trails, but I moved to the mountains and found that I wasn't wild about sending it in Pisgah on 2.2s and a 100mm Stepcast 32 fork with no dropper. So I got a Santa Cruz Chameleon that was a bit slacker, could take more tire and a dropper...and hated it. Handling felt sluggish and just wasn't the poppy fun I was used to. I felt like I needed to take the FS lines because I couldn't really get _around_ obstacles, so I just hit stuff and bent up my back wheel and took a beating myself in the process. A year in, I just wasn't having fun and sold it.
> 
> Now I'm having a bit of an existential crisis, I've always been a "hardtail guy". I love the simplicity. I love the light weight. But maybe my current trails just aren't suited for the type of bike I like? Would a sort of "modern XC bike" like an Epic hardtail give the steep terrain descending confidence and maintain the light, agile feel of a short wheelbase hardtail?


There is a difference in how HT and FS are handled on so many levels. Now you get the task of trying the various bikes and learning what suits you. Renting a bike for a proper shakedown is in order if they are available with the current state of the planet.

Frankly, I will take my Middlechild anywhere I would take my Wildcat. The difference, the Wildcat is a Fleetwood Brougham on two wheels.


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## msrothwe (Aug 1, 2007)

BansheeRune said:


> Now you get the task of trying the various bikes and learning what suits you.


Yeah, this is the tricky part. Pandemic means nothing is in stock. There is one local shop that will rent out an Epic Evo, but trying to get an XC hardtail is going to be near impossible around here. I'll report back after I ride the Epic Evo though


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

msrothwe said:


> Yeah, this is the tricky part. Pandemic means nothing is in stock. There is one local shop that will rent out an Epic Evo, but trying to get an XC hardtail is going to be near impossible around here. I'll report back after I ride the Epic Evo though


I cannot be more grateful for having built a Middlechild and Sergeant V3 prior to the COOTIES-19 debacle. Well, the Middlechild was a 2019 thang but still...


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## Surfindabass (Nov 30, 2020)

Always been a hardtail guy until I moved to the Desert Southwest 2 years ago and got a 150/140 FS that rides perfect for me on the local trails. I built up a second bike - a really nice modern HT that is nice and compliant and springy steel feel but sort of on the fence after a few rides. If I was back in Central Jersey, the new HT would be the main bike but my riding has changed so much and with all the rocks here, not sure if I'll be holding on to it. Sounds like you just gotta figure out what'll work for you in the new environment - maybe it's not a HT. Sounds like you're moving in that direction.


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## OldSchoolMBer (May 25, 2013)

msrothwe said:


> Oh I definitely think weight had something to do with it. My old stumpy hardtail was 22 pounds and the Chameleon was 29ish. I'm halfway tempted to get a Carbon Chameleon or a DV9, but now I'm gunshy.


If you were used to a 22# bike from yesteryear I'm not surprised you're struggling with the feel of modern trail bikes. I've never ridden in your area but it sounds like a modern XC bike should be able to handle them. I'd consider looking that direction and less towards trail bikes, they'd be closer to what you're used to yet a lot more capable than the older bikes.


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