# My New, NOS 1995 Wilderness Trail Bikes (WTB) Phoenix - Lots of pics



## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Hello VRC --
I just built up a new old stock WTB Phoenix frame that I happened upon months ago and have been painfully keeping secret until I had the money to purchase. It is an 18", Forest Green Frame with 140mm rear spacing and Canti-mounts, suspension corrected. Serial number: 95372. This bike is a dream bike for me, and the build was exceptionally fun and satisfying. If you're up for the story of how I found this new old stock frame, and a whole lot of pics, keep on reading. If you just want to see the bike, here you go:










*The Discovery*

Back in February I was working on my 1993 Trek 930 and was desperately searching for an age appropriate handlebar. I went down to a shop a town over from me that I do not frequent regularly for a number of reasons, mainly being that the owner is a vintage road bike collector and does very little with mountain stuff. He has been around for over 30 years, so I hoped he might have some old beat up handlebars he would part with for cheap. This particular owner is renowned in the area for his extensive collection of vintage road bikes, and also his amazing collection of random old bike stuff. He is also well known for being a ruthless haggler and cunning businessman, so I am always on my toes when I go in looking for used parts.

On this trip in, I struck out on the handlebars (he had some of the old Scott ones with the built in bar ends, but wanted full retail for them). When I asked if he had any older MTB stuff in general, he shook his head no, but then paused and said, "I have a 90's trail bike downstairs, brand new but its missing some parts." "What kind of bike is it?" I asked, to which he replied, "I can't remember, but it's a handmade steel frame. I bought it from the builder at Interbike, I think his name is on it somewhere."

Quite intrigued, I asked if I could see it and he took me down to his cellar (where there were over 300 bikes hanging). He lead me to the far back corner where he pushed aside giant box of cheap steel road forks and then reached up and pulled down the bike. It was covered in dust, missing parts, and had a few scratches from hanging so long, but after I blew off the dust I could not believe what I was seeing. I snapped a couple pics on with my phone.

Wilderness Trail Bikes Phoenix - untouched for 14 years.









Some guys you might have heard of...









"This is a Steve Potts bike" I said confidently, trying to hide the little girl inside of me that was mercilessly giggling with glee. "Yeah" he replied, "That's the guy. It's a Wilderness Trail Bikes, they were a company that was around for a while in the 1990's." Unsure of whether or not he knew how special Pott's bikes are to VRC, I moved along. "How long has it been sitting down here?" I asked, wondering if this was really the lifetime find it seemed to be. "Since 1997, we needed some parts from it for another bike and I put it down here until we got it back together. We never got around to it."

The parts on the bike were an almost laughable mix of used and take off stuff that spanned from 1993-2002. Suntour XC pro brakes with LX Shifter/Brake combo. Lots of mid 90's Trek junk, along with a 1997 Judy XC and some sugino impel cranks. He tried to tell me it was a kit but I explained to him that none of the components would have come together and he just shrugged it off. Didn't matter, I was only interested in the frame. "How much you looking to get for the frame?" I asked, again trying to mask my excitement. He responded that he did not know, had no records of his purchase, and had no idea what it was worth. He said he would think about it, and I should get back to him. I carefully re-wrapped the tubes with foam and hung the bike back on its familiar hanger. I had taken the above pictures, and that was all I had for now.

*The Last Few Months*

Obsessed with the possibility if actually owning a new phoenix, I collected as much information as I could about the bike, including any I could find that had sold in the past decade. Most of what I found was used bikes in various condition ranging anywhere from $700-$1200. I printed up all that I could find and brought it down to the shop owner. I tried to play it slick and made a case that complete bikes were selling for $700, and that the frame only will be much less, especially since it's so old. made him a low-ball offer of $300 that he laughed at, and said I was nowhere close to what he was thinking. At the time, the low-ball offer was really all I could afford, so I told him I would get back in touch when I could make a more reasonable offer. He thanked me for the info and I left.

*Last Week*

Three months later, I just finished doing a series of side jobs (computer crap) and found myself with a little extra money. I had Thursday off, so I slept in, went for a ride, then came back and started browsing VRC. I got back into the Phoenix thread, one that I have drooled over before, and something inside me clicked. "I am going to go buy that Phoenix" I said aloud (I was alone) "I am taking it home today."

I checked my bank accounts, hopped in the car, and drove straight to the shop. I energetically burst through the creaky old door, and looked for my man. Instead, I was greeted by the shop manager, a slight, balding, middle aged man with an old school mustache. I have talked to him before and he is a really nice guy, also much more eager to unload inventory than the owner. I asked if I could talk to the owner and was told he was on the Cape for the day. Feeling like my plan was about to unravel, I told the manager I had come in to buy that old WTB downstairs, and made an offer of $550. He thought that was a big enough number to call the owner over, so he broke out the cell phone and greeted his boss by saying "I have an opportunity for you." The numbers were discussed, but again the owner was non-committal, saying he just didn't know what he had and couldn't sell for that yet. It was advised that I come back in a few days and check in.

Feeling defeated, I paused and came up with a new negotiating approach. I somewhat forcefully told the manager, "I came in here today to buy that old bike. Every time I have talked to the owner he ends the conversation saying he is not sure what he will sell it for and he needs to think about it. I have today off, I do not have tomorrow off. I can't just come back for another round of stalling. I want to buy that bike, what number does the owner need to hear to make it happen now. "

Somewhat taken aback by my upfront tactic, he mumbled a bit words for a while before saying he thought $700 would probably do it, but he couldn't promise anything. I repeated, "$700 for the frame, seat-post, saddle, and binder?" "Yes" he said, "that should do it." "Call him up" I replied, "let's make this happen." He quickly got back on the phone and went to a corner of the shop out of my earshot. I "browsed" close enough to hear the manager basically pleading with the owner to just sell the bike, that it was a good deal, and that I would even strip the parts right there in the shop so no labor would be wasted. They talked for about 15 minutes, and then the manager came back over. I was nervous, I had butterflies, I was almost trembling; "700 bucks" he said, "you have a deal."

The smile I had been fighting since I discovered the frame back in February finally broke through and I eagerly shook his hand. "Boy, you really wanted this thing huh?" he asked. Did I ever. I have always dreamed of owned a handmade classic steel frame from one of the greats (Wojick, Weigle, Ritchy, Potts, etc...) but it was never a realistic option for me. I am always searching craigs list/ebay/yard sales/etc... for a find, but never turn anything up. And now...here....I was buying a brand new WTB Phoenix handmade by Steve Potts for around 20% below original wholesale. Yeah, I was psyched.

I set up a stand on the shop floor and proceeded to strip the bike down. The frame was in perfect shape aside from a couple scratches in the pain from storage. The insides of the tubes are pristine, and the paint was still glossy after 14 years in a basement. Worried that I did not have a fork to fit the massive head tube, I asked the manager if I could rummage through the basement for an old one that might work. After measuring more than 30 forks, I found 3 possibilities: a white steel take off from an old Fila which weighed a ton, a black one from an old GT that was also an anchor, and a chrome "Haro Tru-Trac" 26" ATB fork that was significantly lighter and made of 4130. I grabbed the Haro and browsed through their headset drawer, very surprised to find some NOS Suntour XC Pro headsets with WTB Greaseguard. I brought them up to the manager and asked "How much for this old threaded headset and this beat old fork? Is $15 a piece cool?" He hesitated, distracted by a customer and eager to keep moving, so he just said "Sure" and hurried away. Wow, a period correct 4130 Kastan made fork and a $79.99 headset for only 30 bucks. I installed the headset and fork, then raced home and snapped the photos of my new prize.

Phoenix Before 1









Phoenix Before 2









Phoenix Before 3









Phoenix Before 4 - Those guys again.









Phoenix Before 5 - Serial Number









Phoenix Before 6 - XC Pro Headset with WTB Grease Guard









Phoenix Before 7 - Kastan Made 4130 Cro-Mo ATB Fork









Phoenix Before 8 - Dropouts









*The Build
*Detailed write up of the build (hub conversion/fork issues etc...forthcoming below)*

I am very fortunate that back when I was racing MTB in high school and college I saved almost all of my old parts. As I upgraded to lighter/stiffer this and that, I kept all the perfectly good old stuff safely tucked away in a box in my Mom's basement. Very fortunate, because this stuff basically amounts to a 1996 race kit with everything from original race face turbine's to my original WTB momentum headset. I knew that the only way to build this bike was period correct, so I dove into my treasure trove and collected what I deemed worthy of this legendary frame. Complete parts of what's on it now below (pics show a few variations).

*Fork*: 1997 Marzocchi Atom Bomb, 75mm travel (originally purchased by me in 1997)
*Headset*: WTB Momentum 1 1/8 w/ greaseguard (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Stem 1*: Control Tech Pro, 120mm x 5, pewter, made in the US (originally purchased by me in 1997)
*Stem 2*: Bontrager, 100mm x 6 (originally purchased by me 1996)
*Handlebar*: Specialzed wide boy, 25.5" w/ 10 deg sweep (circa 2000, purchased off ebay)
*Seatpost*: Kalloy 31.8, came with the frame (Thomson on the way)
*Saddle 1*: WTB SST w/ blue kevlar edges (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Saddle 2*: Specialized Body Geometry pro (2001 I think, my butts favorite saddle)
*Bottom Bracket*: Race face taperlock cro-mo axle (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Crankset*: Race Face Turbine LP, 175mm, polished silver (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Chainrings*: Shimano XT 8 speed (originally purchased by me in 1998)
*Cassette*: Shimano Deore XT 11-30 (8 speed)* 
Chain: SRAM PC-91 (who knows when I put this into service, but it was mated to the cassette)
*Rear Derailleur*: Shimano XTR M950, like new (ebay purchase Jan 2010)
*Front Derailleur*: Shimano Ultegra Triple**
*Shifters*: Grip Shift X-Ray 800 (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Brake Levers*: Shimano Deore XT M739 (purchased form ebay, NOS)
*Brakes*: Shimano Deore XT V-Brake M739, F+R (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Seat Bag*: Original "Widgets" of Vermont seat back (originally purchased by me in 1996)

*Wheels:* This is the first wheel-set I built myself, way back in 1996 at the end of my first year working in a shop. After applying a drop of lube to each nipple, they trued up perfected and I was able to easily re-dish the rear wheel.

*Front Hub*: WTB Momentum (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Rear Hub*: Shimano Deore XT M739, custom spaced to 140mm (originally purchased by me in 1996)
*Rims*: Mavic 217, Silver, 32h (originally purchased by me 1996)
*Nipples*: DT Swiss Blue Alloy
*Spokes*: Wheelsmith DB 14
*Tires*: WTB Velociraptor 26x2.1(F+R specific) (originally purchased by me in 1998)

*probably purchased in 1998, because I made the jump to 9 speed the next year
** stole it from my road bike, currently searching for a vintage XT or XTR 34.9 BP!!!

The Rigid fork was spaced HUGE around the brakes, so much so the calipers touched when fully closed....switched out for my bomber, details in the coming build write up.










Phoenix After - 120 Stem


















*The Ride*
Riding the bike for the first time was both exciting and intimidating. Had I placed the bike on a pedestal so high that my expectations were unattainable? Would it fit? I know that at 5'10 I should technically be riding a 15" Phoenix, but I have always liked longer top tubes and shorter stems (even back in the day) so with the 100mm I hoped it would work (the 120mm felt too long). I also was starting with a 23" EA70 bar, and I was worried it would be too narrow. Well, right off the bat I can confirm that the bar felt too narrow with the 100mm stem, so I planned to swap out the SPZ wideboy when I got home (the extra 2" are perfect, and the bike fits like a glove). The fork was too soft for my burley weight (235 lbs - But I have lost 50 lbs since mid January and am continuing to drop) but it was ok...I cannot believe how plush this old bomber is.

Onto the important part: the frame. This bike likes to go straight. Over stuff, into stuff, straight on through. It tracks incredibly well and is very forgiving, and it feels like me center of gravity is spot on. The bike feels "flowy" to use a completely subjective and meaningless term, carving through terrain almost like a downhill ski bites into groomed snow. I playfully rode up and down the banks and side trails along the Rail Trail path my wife and I were riding, dodging trees and bouncing around like an idiot 16 year old again. Stopping frequently to make little adjustments one thing just kept going through my mind: "This bike is fun....really fun." In my initial run the Phoenix lived up to my lofty expectations, exceeded its lore, and delivered me back to when I first discovered and fell in love with riding off road. This one' s a keeper!

Phoenix on Trail 1









Phoenix on Trail 2









Phoenix on Trail 3 - Headtube 









Phoenix on Trail 4 - Drivetrain









Phoenix on Trail 5 - Momentum Hub 









Phoenix on Trail 6 - Widgets Bag 









Phoenix on Trail 7 - 25.5" wide flat bar 









Phoenix on Trail 7 - 25.5" wide flat bar 2









*The Future*
Planned changes include finding an appropriate front derailleur, a Thomson seatpost, and finding a period correct bar at least 24.5" wide (something like a Salsa moto ace). I would also like to find a 110mm stem, but I think I might have one custom made to match the bike. I also just purchased another identical bomber fork off ebay for only $50, which I plan to have repainted to match the frame (either that or go for a cream color or something). Who knows what else might change in the long run...I have a lead on a complete NOS XTR M950 groupo that might be on the cheap, and those parts would look beautiful on this bike.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Reserved for detailed build write up.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Very nice story. Well done!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I would keep fiddling with those parts you have there but that frame is an awesome foundation.

I love mine. Probably my favorite bike. Hope it will be yours as well.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

I expect I will be changing things out regularly for a while until I get it just right. I have a 1996 Chris King headset I could put on (black, would look better) but I am kind of attached to the WTB. If I get my hands on that NOS 1996 M950 group....I think I will have a permanent kit.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

From the look of the bike, you might want to see if someone has a 15 that they would trade you. You can ride the 18, but I'm guessing a 15 would be a better fit.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

At 5'10 I straddle the two sizes, but I have 35" arms and have always gravitated to longer top tubes (23.5 minimum). With the wider bar and the shorter stem, the reach is about the same as with the 23" bar and 120mm stem, but the front end is much more responsive. I worry if I had a 15" I would forever be thinking/feeling the bike was too small.


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

Fantastic thread and congratulations on the weight loss! :thumbsup:


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Great story, and a beautiful bike! Congratulations on having a ream come true!


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

What a write up! ----nice bike too!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Nice bike. Nice write up.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks for all the nice comments! 

If anyone happens to know more about the Kastan made steel Haro Fork I would be interested in any information. It seems to be very nice, but I am worried the offset is wrong for the bike and also that I would have to get new brake tabs welded on to effectively use it. That said, it is a lightweight 4130 fork with nice welds/finish, so if the numbers end up OK it would be great to have it as an option.

As indicated in my signature, I am also looking for a few things to finish the build, so if anyone has a M950 or M739 Front Derailleur (34.9, BP), a vintage black Ringle/Syncros/Kore/etc... stem (100 or 110mm, 1 1/8), a or vintage salsa cro mo bar (24"+) I would like to strike up a conversation.

Build write up coming soon....too many pics to make sense of right now.

PS: MY #1 Priority is some 75mm bomber springs heavy or xtra heavy!!!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

apat13 said:


> PS: MY #1 Priority is some 75mm bomber springs heavy or xtra heavy!!!


I think I may have a set of heavy 70mm Bomber springs still in their original package. I'll look tonight and see what they are. I bought them for a fork in 2002, never installed them, and haven't looked at them since.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

laffeaux said:


> I think I may have a set of heavy 70mm Bomber springs still in their original package. I'll look tonight and see what they are. I bought them for a fork in 2002, never installed them, and haven't looked at them since.


If you have them I would love to buy them! You can just PM me what address you want paypal payment to and for how much.

Thanks!


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

I have a Syncros stem, not sure how long and it is a little beat up but I have a set of decals for it so if you can get it painted and get the bolts it would look brand new. Pm me if you want it. Just cover postage.

Oh and kudos for actually riding the bike. Lots of folks woulda stashed that one away knowing what it's worth.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

If the VRC had posts like yours every day...this place would be so much better for it.

Great write up and story. Nothing better than when a bike lives up to or exceeds the hype.
Mine surely did.

Congrats again, sounds like you earned it.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Wait....if I get praised by Rumphy does that mean I am officially accepted in the VRC club? :thumbsup: Or do I still have to go through a probation period or something... 

I would like to think I earned this bike, but I have to admit the hardest part of all was keeping it a secret. There was a period where I did not think I would be able to ever afford it, so I had starting making a list of VRC people I might PM with the info just to make sure the bike had a good home and was preserved. My determination got the better of me though, and I kept holding out until I had the means. Pure dumb luck was still the biggest factor overall.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

sandmangts said:


> Oh and kudos for actually riding the bike. Lots of folks woulda stashed that one away knowing what it's worth.


I definitely plan on riding the bike, but not as a primary. I will use this on Rail Trails with my wife, and for long XC rides on moderate terrain. For anything bigger or badder I will break out my 456 with ex823's and let that take the abuse. As much as I plan on enjoying the ride of my Phoenix, I am equally dedicated to preserving it as a "forever" bike, both for its historical significance (Steve Potts is the man) and personal satisfaction (I really like old, well engineered and built things....you should see some of my watches).


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

mechagouki said:


> Congratulations on having a ream come true!


Freudian slip of the week.

Great bike and awesome story.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat13 said:


> Wait....if I get praised by Rumphy does that mean I am officially accepted in the VRC club? :thumbsup: Or do I still have to go through a probation period or something...


Don't make me start pointing out flaws.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Mail just came - Aspirevelotech ships fast! Now with Thomson elite post...the tolerances are so perfect on the seat tube, it is tight but movable with no play whatsoever.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

I can't view the photos from work but after reading just a few lines into your post I knew this had to be Scott's Cyclery in Willimantic and sure enough after checking your profile this has to be correct - right!??

Your description of Scott and his shop is spot on by the way. I look forward to re-visiting this thread in a few hours when I get home from work.

Cheers,

Mark (formerly from Mansfield, now in Burlington, and working in East Hartford)


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Boy named SSue said:


> Freudian slip of the week.


LOL! I always thought those Body Geometry saddles looked dangerous.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

MMcG said:


> I can't view the photos from work but after reading just a few lines into your post I knew this had to be Scott's Cyclery in Willimantic and sure enough after checking your profile this has to be correct - right!??
> 
> Your description of Scott and his shop is spot on by the way. I look forward to re-visiting this thread in a few hours when I get home from work.
> 
> ...


Indeed Mark! I live in Storrs/Mansfield (have for most of my life). For anyone who is looking for older random parts in NE Connecticut Scott's is definitely a good place to start. You just never know what you might find....but be prepared, he knows the market for the most part and is a hell of a haggler!


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Rumpfy said:


> Don't make me start pointing out flaws.


lmao.

Great bike, cool story, and I'm jealous.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Nice. I totally want to check out that shop now


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Nice. I totally want to check out that shop now


If the owner (Scott) is there and has time ask him to show you some of his personal road bikes. He has some gorgeous 1960's and 70's European bikes with original gear on them, that he still rides on his weekly shop outings! The derailleurs are works of art - very cool stuff. He also has a strange array of NOS MTB stuff: a fair number of Scott MTB handlebars, random 1 1/4 suspension forks (quadras and stuff) some mid-late 90's NOS MTB stuff (XT brake levers in original display packaging among other random things) and an endless array of used/take-off/unpackaged stuff in the back (I sorted through at least 30 rigid forks, some very nice). Lots of XC Pro and who knows what else. Above all else Scott is a bike guy and he has tremendous passion for all things cycling. I think he has some cool 80's road bike posters stashed for sale too (under 20 bucks if I remember).


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## nitram3k (Oct 6, 2005)

*KORE Elite Stem*

I just picked up a black NOS KORE Elite Stem, 1 1/8, 105mm today. Send me a PM if you want one too. I have some NOS springs also, not sure of the length.



apat13 said:


> Thanks for all the nice comments!
> 
> If anyone happens to know more about the Kastan made steel Haro Fork I would be interested in any information. It seems to be very nice, but I am worried the offset is wrong for the bike and also that I would have to get new brake tabs welded on to effectively use it. That said, it is a lightweight 4130 fork with nice welds/finish, so if the numbers end up OK it would be great to have it as an option.
> 
> ...


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks to an MTBR member, a more appropriate stem is on its way. Can't wait to see it mounted.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

apat13 said:


> Indeed Mark! I live in Storrs/Mansfield (have for most of my life). For anyone who is looking for older random parts in NE Connecticut Scott's is definitely a good place to start. You just never know what you might find....but be prepared, he knows the market for the most part and is a hell of a haggler!


I love going in there and looking at all the old MTB forks on the wall and old frames hanging from the ceiling.

The weird thing is the price tags on the items - it is like a time warp as Scott never lowers the price in order to move things out of the shop. I often wonder how he survives/makes money, but he must be doing okay as his shop's been going for years now. The basement area is a sight to behold.

Just a cool shop to visit and maybe walk out with a rare gem or piece of purple ano etc. etc!
:thumbsup:


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

MMcG said:


> I love going in there and looking at all the old MTB forks on the wall and old frames hanging from the ceiling.
> 
> The weird thing is the price tags on the items - it is like a time warp as Scott never lowers the price in order to move things out of the shop. I often wonder how he survives/makes money, but he must be doing okay as his shop's been going for years now. The basement area is a sight to behold.
> 
> ...


HAHA!! I bought purple ano Non-QR skewers from him in March. :thumbsup:

If you thought the forks and stuff on the wall were something you should see downstairs....literally 10x more. I recall seeing a NOS Pepperoni fork with original tags.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

I packed up that syncros stem for you. If it turns out you don't want to use it be sure to pass it along! I got it for free from somebody.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks man! I will likely be trying lots of configurations to get it right - can't wait to see the stem. :thumbsup:


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

NIce job.

Not many of those on the "right" coast!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat...I'm just going to throw this out there...as a long time builder/collector/rider.


Continue to improve upon the bike and its build...not make it worse.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> apat...I'm just going to throw this out there...as a long time builder/collector/rider.
> 
> Continue to improve upon the bike and its build...not make it worse.


Should I take that as you think I might be moving in the wrong direction with something? Advice is definitely appreciated.

This morning I installed my old black King headset (original purchase 1997) and the whole bike looks much cleaner and I think more unified without the red ano. If you have any ideas please let me know - I have a selection of age appropriate stems on the way as well as the correct weight springs for the fork.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat13 said:


> This morning I installed my old black King headset (original purchase 1997) and the whole bike looks much cleaner and I think more unified without the red ano.


There we go. Bonus if its a no-logo. :thumbsup:


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> There we go. Bonus if its a no-logo. :thumbsup:


It has the "king" text around the cups...I think it was pre '95 that they were no-logo? I will snap some photos on my ride this afternoon.

On another note...they M950 kit actually turned out to me a NOS M900 kit! If that comes together I think it would look beautiful on the frame.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat13 said:


> It has the "king" text around the cups...I think it was pre '95 that they were no-logo? I will snap some photos on my ride this afternoon.
> 
> On another note...they M950 kit actually turned out to me a NOS M900 kit! If that comes together I think it would look beautiful on the frame.


M950 came out in 96...so on your 95 frame, M900 would be perfect.

Naturally its your bike so you build and do what you want...but if you're going for correctness and component quality that matches frame quality...


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Just finished my first real mountain ride on the Phoenix....I will detail some of its characteristics later but I can accurately sum up my ride today by saying OMFG. I have never thrown a leg over a new bike and had it feel so "right" from the get go. 

The 100mm stem was too short and messed with the weight distribution so I threw my 120mm on there after about a mile. I had set up my saddle based on my other bikes which all have a 73 seat angle, so I compensated for the slacker 72 on the Phoenix my sliding the saddle forward about 5-7mm on the rails and raising it slightly. This change put me in the sweet spot for pedaling and the bike just took off. With the 120 stem and the seat forward it was perfect...just perfect. I cleared 3 technical sections on the first pass that I regularly struggle with on my other bikes. I cleared a technical climb I have not made all year. With only 70mm of travel, I caught up to and almost passed a guy on a 6" travel AM rig on a technical descent. 

My only gripe is that I am used to a higher BB, and I hit the pedals a few times, but that just means I need to pick cleaner lines. I want to find a 24.5" wide bar because I kept creeping in a bit, and am going to talk to Steve Potts tomorrow (hopefully) and ask about having a bar/stem made from nice cro-mo. 

The only limiting factor on the bike is my fork, which, frankly, is spanked. Needs a rebuild, needs bushings, needs seals, but even then it flexed a whole lot and I am concerned that despite being top quality in 1997 it just pales in comparison to today's suspension performance specifically in terms of lateral stiffness and tunability. 

I had so much fun riding today (ran into a nice chap and ended up doing two more laps)that I will probably make the Phoenix my main bike. I can't stress enough how well it preformed, and I imagine with an appropriate sized 80mm fork and tubeless tires this frame would have no limiting factors in terms of capability. I think I will try to find a modern tubeless wheelset/fork setup and then rebuild my bomber so that I can run both an age appropriate setup when it calls for it and also a modern performance package for when I want to do 5 hour rides. 

Lots to think about....I am literally giddy (according to my wife) about how well this bike rides. :thumbsup:


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

As a quick follow up regarding some of my parts...

Before installing the X-Ray 800's I thoroughly degreased them and reassembled the set with Chris King Ring Drive Lube (I ran out of Jonnisnot a long time ago, and the consistency is similar). I know that soon the housing will get dirty and the shifter will gum up, but these things worked so well with the XTR RDR....shifting was on-par with the best systems I have used, and I fondly remeber why so many racer ran them despite the need for frequent rebuilds, especially when compared to the relatively vague feel of the 1996-1998 rapidfire shifters (xtr excluded).

The other nice surprise were the XT V-Brakes. After riding discs for so long, I had forgotten just how powerful a well set up vee brake on a well worn rim is. The guy I rode with hopped in the Phoenix for a road spurt, and commented that the brakes were as touchy as his hydraulics. Fun stuff!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Steve Potts rocks.

Don't keep him on the phone too long tomorrow please.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Ya...call him during the week. We're actually going to be seeing him tomorrow. Seriously.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Right on. When he e-mailed me back he said Saturday was good for him usually and he would let me know when to call. If not tomorrow whenever, I am still in shock that I am going to get to talk to Steve Potts in the first place.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat13 said:


> Just finished my first real mountain ride on the Phoenix....I will detail some of its characteristics later but I can accurately sum up my ride today by saying OMFG. I have never thrown a leg over a new bike and had it feel so "right" from the get go.
> 
> The 100mm stem was too short and messed with the weight distribution so I threw my 120mm on there after about a mile. I had set up my saddle based on my other bikes which all have a 73 seat angle, so I compensated for the slacker 72 on the Phoenix my sliding the saddle forward about 5-7mm on the rails and raising it slightly. This change put me in the sweet spot for pedaling and the bike just took off. With the 120 stem and the seat forward it was perfect...just perfect. I cleared 3 technical sections on the first pass that I regularly struggle with on my other bikes. I cleared a technical climb I have not made all year. With only 70mm of travel, I caught up to and almost passed a guy on a 6" travel AM rig on a technical descent.
> 
> ...


Not to steal your thunder...but wait until you get one your size, it'll be even more impressive! 

As for the way the bike rides, I feel the same way about mine. Easily one of the best riding bikes I've ever owned. There isn't a modern hardtail out there that this bike can't compete with.

You could do a 80mm Fox. I'm running a Hippietech built 63mm SID which is flat f'in perfect with this bike.

More thunder stealing:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

apat13 said:


> Right on. When he e-mailed me back he said Saturday was good for him usually and he would let me know when to call. If not tomorrow whenever, I am still in shock that I am going to get to talk to Steve Potts in the first place.


We're mostly busting chops...but call early then. 

It's pretty cool talkin' to the guy. He's easily one of the nicest, most down to earth people you could meet. You can imagine how surreal hangin' out at his house for an afternoon was.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

I have a 2002 Vanilla 125 that I just finished taking apart, cleaning, and reassembling at 80mm. The axle to crown is only about 18mm more than the bomber, so with sag it will not change the geometry much. The steertube is slightly short but I think a couple of the stems I have coming have shorter stack heights and might work. I really don't feel like shelling out for a new upper assembly, and if I could safely fit a stem then it would be a great performer while I rebuild the bombers.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

A little update on the fork experiments.

The Vanilla at 80mm is a little tall, and while very ride-able it slackens the angles enough that I worry it will be detrimental, especially when climbing. More importantly in this specific case, the steertube only has 32mm exposed with the King Headset. It is far to short for my Control Tech stem, but I think the Titec pictured above has only a 37mm or 39mm stack height, and a low clam bolt so as long as my calculations are within 5% it should work well. My primary goal is rebuilding the 70mm Atom Bomb I have coming from the 'bay (new bushings, springs, seals, heavier weight oil) because I will have no stem limitations, and the height is just perfect. Most importantly, I spent all my money on the frame and small parts so I really don't want to shell out for a new fork!


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

The mail guy brought me new seals, springs, and bushings for my 98 Z2 Atom Bomb, and I had the afternoon off so I got nice and messy. Tore the bomber down to just parts, then systematically degreased and inspected each piece (most of the parts are still in like new condition, despite probably 10,000 miles on it, a nice testament to how forks were built before they were disposable). Reassembled with Red (210-230 lb rider) springs, enduro seals and wipers, and Maxima 125/150 (approx. 7.5 wt) synthetic oil. 


No leaks so far, and it is as butter smooth as a fork with heavy springs can be. Most important - the bushing's are nice and tight so there will be much less chatter!

Pics coming after tomorrows ride.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

apat13 said:


> Reassembled with Red (210-230 lb rider) springs,


Glad they made it!


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

laffeaux said:


> Glad they made it!


Indeed! I was not expecting them until Monday so this was a great surprise and I should be able to get out for a few rides this weekend. With the fork rebuilt the bike feels like brand new...I am all giddy again.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

Rumpfy said:


> Not to steal your thunder...but wait until you get one your size
> 
> More thunder stealing:


errr...with 4 feet of seatpost showing it doesn't look like that's your size
IF you ever get the chance to ride a custom fitted bike - properly fitted and made by almost anyone - you will see what it's like to ride a bike that fits

just think, actually *RIDING* a bike 
hahahahahahahahahahahahhhaahahahhahahahaha


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

klasse said:


> ...IF you ever get the chance to ride a custom fitted bike - properly fitted and made by almost anyone - you will see what it's like to ride a bike that fits...


I'll definitely need to find a different/better builder for my next custom fitted bike. This is my last one -- and you can see how it has that stupid-looking too-much-seatpost problem as well.










Oh, and hahahahahahahahahahahahhhaahahahhahahahaha


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

apat13 said:


> Thanks for all the nice comments!
> 
> If anyone happens to know more about the Kastan made steel Haro Fork I would be interested in any information. It seems to be very nice, but I am worried the offset is wrong for the bike and also that I would have to get new brake tabs welded on to effectively use it. That said, it is a lightweight 4130 fork with nice welds/finish, so if the numbers end up OK it would be great to have it as an option.
> 
> ...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

klasse said:


> errr...with 4 feet of seatpost showing it doesn't look like that's your size
> IF you ever get the chance to ride a custom fitted bike - properly fitted and made by almost anyone - you will see what it's like to ride a bike that fits
> 
> just think, actually *RIDING* a bike
> hahahahahahahahahahahahhhaahahahhahahahaha


i am sure there are proper places on the web (for the intellectually challenged) where you will be loved and respected by your peers... good luck!


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

klasse said:


> errr...with 4 feet of seatpost showing it doesn't look like that's your size
> IF you ever get the chance to ride a custom fitted bike - properly fitted and made by almost anyone - you will see what it's like to ride a bike that fits
> 
> just think, actually *RIDING* a bike
> hahahahahahahahahahahahhhaahahahhahahahaha


I usually don't get involved in such banal discussions, but I thought I'd show you a few custom bikes that were made for me in the last few years. Both have a fair amount of seat post showing and the builders never scolded me for wanting such a design.

2007 Ted Wojcik:










2009 Independent Fabrication Deluxe:










In 2008, I also had Independent Fabrication build me up a Titanium Crown Jewel which also has a fair amount of seat post showing.

View attachment 557307


Just because it has a lot of seat post showing doesn't mean it doesn't fit you.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

misterdangerpants said:


> I usually don't get involved in such banal discussions, but I thought I'd show you a few custom bikes that were made for me in the last few years. Both have a fair amount of seat post showing and the builders never scolded me for wanting such a design.
> 
> 2007 Ted Wojcik:
> 
> ...


Fantastic bikes! I'm also a fan of the wall socket in the baseboard in the 2nd pic.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

misterdangerpants said:


> I usually don't get involved in such banal discussions, but I thought I'd show you a few custom bikes that were made for me in the last few years. Both have a fair amount of seat post showing and the builders never scolded me for wanting such a design.
> 
> 2009 Independent Fabrication Deluxe:
> 
> ...


Are you saying that Independent Fabrication custom fitted you w/that frame?
I'm curious to hear the length of seatpost showing and the length of seat tube...
one day when/if you put pedals on the bike - you'll see that it rides kinda funny (top heavy)


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Klasse gives a new meaning to "one dimensional".


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

klasse said:


> Are you saying that Independent Fabrication custom fitted you w/that frame?
> I'm curious to hear the length of seatpost showing and the length of seat tube...
> one day when/if you put pedals on the bike - you'll see that it rides kinda funny (top heavy)


No. The bike was designed exactly how I wanted it (via Grace Bicycles). Same with the Ted Wojcik (via, well, Ted). Same with the IF Ti CJ. Same with my current 953 650B SS Chris Igleheart that I'm patiently waiting for. They are custom. There is no fitting a person around a (pre-built/existing) frame. You are fit to a completely custom frame & fork, which aren't built until you approve a CAD representation. All the aforementioned frame makers did a fitting, although Roy at Grace Bicycles has the Retul 3D motion capture system so I spent a couple hours hooked up to a bunch of electrodes.

Both mountain bikes rode like a dream for what they were designed for: northeast single track. Considering the bikes weren't designed for you, you can't judge how they ride. Especially since you've never been in the saddle of any of them. Everybody is different and every *body* is different.

Finally, the IF Deluxe went through a couple of different phases, and you can see it here. Pedals and all. Select the initial link for a preview of the CAD drawing.

Right now it awaits its next build....


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

klasse said:


> Are you saying that Independent Fabrication custom fitted you w/that frame?
> I'm curious to hear the length of seatpost showing and the length of seat tube...
> one day when/if you put pedals on the bike - you'll see that it rides kinda funny (top heavy)


 So please explain to us how it is a compact front triangle creates a top heavy and or ill handling bike. May be then we can put to rest your infatuation with the subject.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

apat13 said:


> As a quick follow up regarding some of my parts...
> 
> Before installing the X-Ray 800's I thoroughly degreased them and reassembled the set with Chris King Ring Drive Lube (I ran out of Jonnisnot a long time ago, and the consistency is similar). I know that soon the housing will get dirty and the shifter will gum up, but these things worked so well with the XTR RDR....shifting was on-par with the best systems I have used, and I fondly remeber why so many racer ran them despite the need for frequent rebuilds, especially when compared to the relatively vague feel of the 1996-1998 rapidfire shifters (xtr excluded).
> 
> The other nice surprise were the XT V-Brakes. After riding discs for so long, I had forgotten just how powerful a well set up vee brake on a well worn rim is. The guy I rode with hopped in the Phoenix for a road spurt, and commented that the brakes were as touchy as his hydraulics. Fun stuff!


awesome bro - yeah i think we all ran out of jonnisnot, hahahahahah
you're causing me to wanna try X Rays again.......hummmmmmmmmm, good stufffff man


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

jeff said:


> So please explain to us how it is a compact front triangle creates a top heavy and or ill handling bike. May be then we can put to rest your infatuation with the subject.


He can't. He just knows his m90's Rockhopper *cough* POS *cough* handles like a dream with no seatpost showing!


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> He can't. He just knows his m90's Rockhopper *cough* POS *cough* handles like a dream with no seatpost showing!


I guess none of my modern bikes with sloping top tubes fit either.


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## EBasil (Jan 30, 2004)

Recent kvetching in the thread aside, congratulations on a GREAT bike build and one heck of a great read, too.


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## goforbroke (Nov 11, 2008)

Cool story and very nice bike. It's always interesting to find out about the history of older bikes, which is usually half the fun.


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## alwaystubed (Jun 14, 2010)

Got that seat post extended!


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Killer story, great bike! I agree with the sentiment that no modern production hardtail can touch these bikes.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

If the guy indeed is running a 120mm stem and it fits up top, not so sure he needs a smaller frame... unless Potts sized frames by st only which I doubt. Hard to say w/out seeing the rider on the bike.

The miles of post and long stem thing was popular in the VRC days.. some guys still set their bikes up that way.. whatever your view, the other seems 'wrong'.

-Schmitty-


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

I have actually had the privileged of talking with Steve Potts at length about setting up my Phoeinx appropriately. First, I want to mention that Steve is about the nicest guy you could hope to talk to, and his genuine love of bicycles is immediately apparent, even over the phone. He gave me volumes of advice and information, and I have made several changes to the bike as a result. Regarding fit, he said that I am right in the size range for this frame, and that running a 110 to 120mm stem is a great fit for the longer top tube. I have been switching between a 110x7 and a 120x5 and still cannot decide which I like more (the 110 is better in the steep and sketchy stuff, but the 120 is outstanding for climbing and mashing the big ring). When I decide on a length and rise Steve is going to build me a cro-mo stem to match the frame.

Over the first month of riding I quickly discovered that even with new bushings, seals, and springs there are simply too many worn out parts on my Bomber (there are literally thousands of miles on the fork). During trail use it just clattered - despite rebuilding twice, checking fit, checking seals, measuring tolerances 10x, etc.... When I asked Steve which modern fork has measurement (Axel to crown, rake, etc...) closest to what he designed the frame around, he enthusiastically recommended the current 80mm Fox forks. I found one of the few remaining 2010 F-Series 80mm RL's with canti mounts, and have been enjoying it immensely. The stiffer front end tracks much more like the rear, making the whole bike feel like one big unit of point and shoot love. It just rolls over everything.

Still waiting to find the right rim's to build up the 1995 New Paradigm hubset I have, but I have some 2.2 mountain kings on the way to lighten it up and maintain traction. 

Just as before, this bike is an absolute pleasure to ride. I always seem to grab it when I hit the trail, and have been lending my full-boy out to friends for the past few weeks. It is a technical wizard, and I can clear obstacles (rock gardens, wall crossings) on the Phoenix that I only occasionally make on my fullboy. 

To echo what many others have said, there is just something special about this bike. Steve Potts got something very very right when he built the Phoenix.

Pics of the current setup coming soon.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

This post makes me want to get in the Que. for a new Potts. Damn. Just what I need.


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