# jumping problem. is it bike or me? advice needed



## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

Hey guys,

had the pleasure of riding Snow Summit in CA this weekend. Was a great time riding. I took out my 2007 Norco Atomik DH, super fun ride.

my problem is... i hit a jump, which had quite a vertical lip on it. and i almost endo'ed... TWICE. after the first attempt, i thought, maybe i leaned too far forward? or maybe i preloaded the front end too much?

so i went for attempt 2, right afterwards, to rule out what i did wrong (which was scary). With my first jump error in mind, i hit the lip a little faster, and i leaned much further back. i believe what happened is i preloaded the rear even MORE and i got even closer to going over the bars. here is a snap of my landing... how i rode away from this, i have no clue. i got lucky.










so my question is.... is it my technique... or is it the way my bike is set up? i come from BMX background, jumping was never an issue. now that i have a longer travel bike, its either a) wack suspension settings, or b) i am just not familiar with controlling a 40+ lb full suspension dh bike.

other jumps, smaller ones, i had no problem, i was able to keep the bike fairly level. but the bigger more vertical hits scare me now.

is it possible that, rebound is a factor in this? maybe my front rebound is too slow while my rear is too fast? causing the back to buck me forward under preload on the lip? i am trying to figure if i need to change anything on my bike. maybe stiffening the front springs a bit. or just learn how to better control myself on the bigger lips.

thanks for any tips and advice. 
_skim


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## OffCamber (May 29, 2005)

Slow your rear rebound and/or could be over sprung in the rear. Start it really slow and work it faster until it feels right. Using the same jump will help also.


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

i am using the full travel in the rear. so i figured either the spring is too soft for my weight or its fine... if its too springy would i not be using all the travel?


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

SkimSTi said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> had the pleasure of riding Snow Summit in CA this weekend. Was a great time riding. I took out my 2007 Norco Atomik DH, super fun ride.
> 
> ...


Hey Mr. SkimSTi,

I'm no expert and as the saying goes..."don't even play one on TV"! However, since I'm ancient and without talent I obsessively read technique books and study videos besides taking any classes local to me. From what I've learned I believe you've answered your own question and even confirmed the answer with your second test jump.

The verbiage I'm keying off of is _"....so i went for attempt 2, right afterwards, to rule out what i did wrong (which was scary). With my first jump error in mind, i hit the lip a little faster, and i leaned much further back. i believe what happened is i preloaded the rear even MORE and i got even closer to going over the bars."_

I think you've correctly analyzed what is bucking you over the front of the bike as you complete the arc of the flight path.

According to Simon Lawton of Fluidride the key to popping off the lip is to preload your weight directly into the bottom bracket from the bottom through the face of the kicker. As you leave the lip he would have you float the bike into the air and according to him "ride by twos". That is to say lead with your hands and follow with your feet. At the top of the arc the bike is level and tucked under your body. All the while your body remains centered over the bike.

I'm sure I'm doing a horrible job of paraphrasing his instructional technique so I suggest you go to the source document for the best information. Here is a link to his commercial instructional videos: 
Fluidride » Fluidride DVD?s

Here is a link to a great free short video he produced on how to handle drops:
drops

Good luck and I wish you the best in your journey to better jumps!

Michael:thumbsup:


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## TonyIaco290 (Jun 6, 2013)

Hey the big step up on Cruiser nice picture! That's a really fun jump and a good choice for practicing. If I may offer my two cents I'd agree with the guy above me. You are probably too far back on the bike. I also think you may be pulling back too hard on the bars throughout the takeoff, which compresses the rear susp. even more. On a BMX bike it is normal to pull back on the bars to pump the lip and get more distance, but on a long travel bike you have to stay more neutral and just let the suspension work.
One more thing, try increasing your compression in the rear. This will help keep the shock from reaching the end of its travel during the takeoff and lessen the rebounding effect because you won't be loading up the spring as much. If the doesn't make sense feel free to tell me and I'll try to explain it better.


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

makes a lot of sense. thanks for the tips guys! 

tony, your statement "On a BMX bike it is normal to pull back on the bars to pump the lip and get more distance, but on a long travel bike you have to stay more neutral and just let the suspension work." HELPS A LOT. i need to get out of that habit.


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## OffCamber (May 29, 2005)

I agree with what the others have said. Staying neutral, good. Adding compression will help with blowing through the travel but if your rebound i set to fast your still gonna get bucked. I ride DJs and trail ride on my SX 4X. If I forget to slow the before hitting the jumps, the rear end wants to kick back once the front wheel leave the lip.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Slow your rebound down , stay neutral , pull on the bars slightly in a nice flowy way and tell your bike u want to get air . Stay loose and look ahead . Same thing happened to me last year at my local bike park , rebound was a little fast , my body was far back , and was over tired. Cost me my season and fractured bones etc. Take your time to gwt used to speed and start small and gradually build up . Be safe man as you got very lucky.


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## jurichar (Aug 19, 2009)

slower rebound and take off a bit of compression (low speed if you got it to reduce) off the front. oh yeah..pull up


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

SkimSTi said:


> tony, your statement "On a BMX bike it is normal to pull back on the bars to pump the lip and get more distance, but on a long travel bike you have to stay more neutral and just let the suspension work."





jurichar said:


> oh yeah..pull up


two different techniques going on here. i am agreeing with the pulling method might have made my situation worse. i definitely plan on slowing down the rebound and not pulling like my bmx days and hoping for the best when im in the air.


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## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

SkimSTi said:


> i am using the full travel in the rear. so i figured either the spring is too soft for my weight or its fine... if its too springy would i not be using all the travel?


my guess is you have answerd your own question right here, suspension sinking to low into its travel. then fast rebound kicking your back wheel up. combination of poor technique and bad suspension setup. 
you dont really want to be pulling the bars as such, let your legs do all the work, compress into the lip with your thighs and hips, then release at the top of the lip if you want to go big, or dont compress and let the bike move into your body if you want to squash the jump. i would defo doubble check you have the correct spring on your shock, and play about with the settings a little.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Lean forward. By leaning forward and keeping your arms bent it allows you room to push the bike down and forward once you are airborne. Leaning back makes you lose all control over the bike. For all these people telling you "do this, do that with your compression rebound", don't worry about suspension setup. Unless your settings are WAYYYYYYY off its not gonna cause you any real problems on a small jump like that. You can hit that jump on a hardtail. 

Watch some dirt jump videos. You'll see the guys are standing straight up with their heads almost over the front axle on steeper take offs. Emulate that. The NUMBER ONE problem I find with beginner jumpers is that they think they need to lean back. That's a mistake. It's not like doing a drop/step down where you MIGHT want your weight slightly rearward biased.

That's a good beginner stepup to practice on keep trying!


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## masterofnone (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm a novice at jumping so I signed up for one of those 3 day mad march skills camps. Try stomping or preloading the suspension right at the top of the lip. I was constantly landing nose heavy, then Shaums showed me (us) that all that suspension in the back will buck you over unless you stomp into the pedals and pull the bars back a little. It's been three weeks since the camp and I haven't been able to practice yet, but when you get the timing right it's like floating and landing on air. BTW Shaums and his Mad March camps are highly recommended no matter how skilled you are.


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## MotoDane250 (Jun 7, 2007)

Here are two videos of myself going off the same jump. Try and compare body position going up the face of the jump.

Snow Summit Cruiser Jump - YouTube

Cruiser Jump Again - YouTube


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

Thanks all! Motodane, the vids were helpful. you were definitely more neutral and just rolled off the lip as many described. looking/thinking back at what i was doing. lifting the bars too hard and compressing the rear even more on the lip was a big no-no. 

as mentioned, all the other jumps on the trail, i was neutral and took off & landed fairly straight. why i didn't put two and two together on the bigger cruiser trail jump, i dont know. (bmx style stuck in my head i guess lol)

everyones responses has been a big help. i am actually upgrading forks this week. which will be a nice improvement for me (marz super t to the marz 888)


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## ifouiripilay (Nov 11, 2005)

MotoDane250 said:


> Here are two videos of myself going off the same jump. Try and compare body position going up the face of the jump.
> 
> Snow Summit Cruiser Jump - YouTube
> 
> Cruiser Jump Again - YouTube


This helps me as well, thanks. You make it look too easy. Are you preloading much? Pulling at all? I can hit this jump but without much height.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

ifouiripilay said:


> This helps me as well, thanks. You make it look too easy. Are you preloading much? Pulling at all? I can hit this jump but without much height.


That jump you can hit without much body input. With the speed you care around the left hand turn you should be able to hit the left, bigger lip without boosting/pullingup/whatever.


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## MotoDane250 (Jun 7, 2007)

Gemini2k05 said:


> That jump you can hit without much body input. With the speed you care around the left hand turn you should be able to hit the left, bigger lip without boosting/pullingup/whatever.


This


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## zaner (Oct 15, 2012)

Have a look at this from leelikesbikes it might help a little.
it helped me out.










its from this page.

Lee Likes Bikes


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

awesome post. Thanks ZANER


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Gemini2k05 said:


> That jump you can hit without much body input. With the speed you care around the left hand turn you should be able to hit the left, bigger lip without boosting/pullingup/whatever.


bigger lip is more intimiadating but easier


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## zaner (Oct 15, 2012)

SkimSTi said:


> awesome post. Thanks ZANER


thanks dude, yeah Lee is great at breaking things down.


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## Drth Vadr (Jul 24, 2009)

michaelsnead said:


> Fluidride » Fluidride DVD?s


I just downloaded a torrent of the DVD. I have to say that It was more to my liking then the other MTB skills DVDs I've seen. All the small nuances were explained great, especially body position and functional movement. I'm so ready to go ride and apply what I have learn to what I struggle with and to re-enforce what I'm already good at. Thanks


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## Swell Guy (Jan 20, 2005)

I can't tell from the picture - are you using clipless pedals? If so, that's your problem.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Swell Guy said:


> are you using clipless pedals? If so, that's your problem.


Just...no


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Swell Guy said:


> I can't tell from the picture - are you using clipless pedals? If so, that's your problem.


Really man ? This could lead to a very bad injury and thats the kind of reply you give? Moron .


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## Swell Guy (Jan 20, 2005)

Not sure I got an answer from the OP, but from what I've observed and experienced, guys on clipless pedals abnormally pull the back end of their bike up while airborne. It's called "levelling your pedals." Because they are distorting the physics of jumping, it causes you to nose down on landing, risking endo or worse with no ability to correct. Been there done that.

Because I got sick of nosing in my landings, I switched to flats. Haven't had a problem since. Flats force you to jump the bike properly and not fight the physics. If you pop straight, you will land straight.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Swell Guy said:


> Not sure I got an answer from the OP, but from what I've observed and experienced, guys on clipless pedals abnormally pull the back end of their bike up while airborne. It's called "levelling your pedals." Because they are distorting the physics of jumping, it causes you to nose down on landing, risking endo or worse with no ability to correct. Been there done that.
> 
> Because I got sick of nosing in my landings, I switched to flats. Haven't had a problem since. Flats force you to jump the bike properly and not fight the physics. If you pop straight, you will land straight.


Umm no .. I know many people that race on clipless and hit jumps with no issues at all with clipless and ive seen people on flats do exactly what happened to the OP , and im speaking from experience from my crash last year . It wasnt about the pedals , its about WRONG body position or poor boosting ...


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Looks to me you didn't wanna fly too high, so you pushed down on the bars too soon in an attempt to suppress flight, completely forgetting about the rear end launching...hence, endo.


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

Swell Guy said:


> Not sure I got an answer from the OP, but from what I've observed and experienced, guys on clipless pedals abnormally pull the back end of their bike up while airborne. It's called "levelling your pedals." Because they are distorting the physics of jumping, it causes you to nose down on landing, risking endo or worse with no ability to correct. Been there done that.
> 
> Because I got sick of nosing in my landings, I switched to flats. Haven't had a problem since. Flats force you to jump the bike properly and not fight the physics. If you pop straight, you will land straight.





aedubber said:


> Umm no .. I know many people that race on clipless and hit jumps with no issues at all with clipless and ive seen people on flats do exactly what happened to the OP , and im speaking from experience from my crash last year . It wasnt about the pedals , its about WRONG body position or poor boosting ...


im going to agree with aedubber. i do not feel comfortable being locked in, personally, riding dh with clips. i have always ridden clipless. always will.



Zachariah said:


> Looks to me you didn't wanna fly too high, so you pushed down on the bars too soon in an attempt to suppress flight, completely forgetting about the rear end launching...hence, endo.


actually 100% opposite. lifted/pulled on bars in hope to gain enough air to clear the jump (was worried i wasnt going fast enough). the diagram Zaner posted best describes what i did wrong. now that i see it visually, i feel comfortable knowing what i should be doing.

thanks all for chiming on on the topic, i know i learned something from the experience and sharing stories. hope others have as well.


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## Swell Guy (Jan 20, 2005)

I'm confused, are you using clipless pedals or not? If so, I'd look at that. You might be levelling your pedals. With flats, it's impossible to level your pedals.

I don't agree with aedubber, nor does an instructor I had @ Whistler a few years back - clipless pedals ruin your jumping technique. I've been jumping for a few years now without clipless pedals and I haven't nosed it since then.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Swell Guy said:


> I'm confused, are you using clipless pedals or not? If so, I'd look at that. You might be levelling your pedals. With flats, it's impossible to level your pedals.
> 
> I don't agree with aedubber, nor does an instructor I had @ Whistler a few years back - clipless pedals ruin your jumping technique. I've been jumping for a few years now without clipless pedals and I haven't nosed it since then.


Well then you and your instructor obv are not listening to what the OP is saying.


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## Swell Guy (Jan 20, 2005)

SkimSTi said:


> im going to agree with aedubber. i do not feel comfortable being locked in, personally, riding dh with clips. i have always ridden clipless. always will.


Your answer is confusing. Let me ask it a different way - are you on flats?


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Swell Guy said:


> Not sure I got an answer from the OP, but from what I've observed and experienced, guys on clipless pedals abnormally pull the back end of their bike up while airborne. It's called "levelling your pedals." Because they are distorting the physics of jumping, it causes you to nose down on landing, risking endo or worse with no ability to correct. Been there done that.


Please, just stop. You have absolutely no business offering suggestions how to jump. Your advice will make people worse jumpers.

(Edit: I do agree that clipless is often a bandaid for bad technique, but it will not "make you a worse jumper" or whatever)


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

Sorry for the confusion. I am riding flat (platform) pedals.


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## Swell Guy (Jan 20, 2005)

SkimSTi said:


> Sorry for the confusion. I am riding flat (platform) pedals.


In which case, I would probably suspect that you are sucking up the tranny too much and letting your backend buck up, throwing you over nose heavy for the landing. Try to be centered on the bike before the transition. One tip that worked for me was cycling my front and back suspension evenly by bouncing a little before I hit the transition. This reminds your body to remain centered on the bike when you hit the transition.

IMHO, of course. You can take or leave my advice as you please. Good luck!


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## SkimSTi (May 30, 2013)

right, which was already fully explained. 

just an FYI, guys, i went riding over the weekend. (not the same trail or jumps) but i took all the tips/advice into consideration and it helped tremendously!! i felt a lot more comfortable and kept both wheels even  

thanks again to all those that posted some useful info here. looking forward to riding summit again in a couple of weeks.


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## aedubber (Apr 17, 2011)

Right on man! Start slow and small , progress slowly and comfortably .. There is no rush , proper technique is whats important and having fun.


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## bert vega (Jun 18, 2013)

Thanks for posting this. I am new and have been having the same problem. On the same jump. I am going to try what I read here to my next ride at Summit.


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

Thank you for this thread! Thanks to Zaner for the stick diagram and to everyone's descriptions. I've never been good with jumps...and I'm talking small potatoes compared to what was posted here. So, during last week's XC race, I almost bit it big time on a series of small table top jumps in a REALLY fast section of singletrack. I was afraid of getting too much air and tried absorbing the jumps. Of course, that meant that I got my weight back, so the rear tire kicked up as shown on the diagram and described in this thread. Slight front-wheel landings on the first two followed by a long nose-wheelie on the third jump ending up in the brush with a slow-mo crash (thankfully scrubbed a lot of speed prior to crashing). I read this thread the next day and realized my mistake.
Fast-forward to yesterday's race (different course). There weren't any similar jumps, but there were small roller jumps and drops. I've never felt so comfortable in the air! ! Weight up and forward like in the diagram and I was perfectly balanced in the air and on landing. I could get air when I wanted and also could suck up a few when the landing zone was short and necessitated more control. 
So thank you to everyone! ! 


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

albertdc said:


> Thank you for this thread! Thanks to Zaner for the stick diagram and to everyone's descriptions. I've never been good with jumps...and I'm talking small potatoes compared to what was posted here. So, during last week's XC race, I almost bit it big time on a series of small table top jumps in a REALLY fast section of singletrack. I was afraid of getting too much air and tried absorbing the jumps. Of course, that meant that I got my weight back, so the rear tire kicked up as shown on the diagram and described in this thread. Slight front-wheel landings on the first two followed by a long nose-wheelie on the third jump ending up in the brush with a slow-mo crash (thankfully scrubbed a lot of speed prior to crashing). I read this thread the next day and realized my mistake.
> Fast-forward to yesterday's race (different course). There weren't any similar jumps, but there were small roller jumps and drops. I've never felt so comfortable in the air! ! Weight up and forward like in the diagram and I was perfectly balanced in the air and on landing. I could get air when I wanted and also could suck up a few when the landing zone was short and necessitated more control.
> So thank you to everyone! !


thats the common rookie mistake you describe there, hanging off the back of the bike, to absorb a jump. if you do this, theres only one way you can go, and thats sling shot over the bars, you will pivot arround your head and arms, 
if you want to squash / absorb a jump. its best to let the bike come up into your body by bending your arms and legs staying central over the bike, similar to how you would ride over a fallen branch on the trail in front of you. thats what you do on the lip absrob it,
to go big you compress in with your legs and release popping off it,

fluidride and flowtonic are great skills dvd's well worth watching.


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## kamsbry (Jul 26, 2009)

Don't torrent that stuff. Simon works his ass off and is one of the best coaches out there. Pay the man.


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