# Rohloff hub issues



## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5028553&postcount=3
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=3049482#poststop

* What constitutes a Speedhub "failure"?
I've been running a speedhub for about 9 months and when it had about 80 miles on it, it slipped - it spun with no power and made nasty grinding sounds. Thinking it was my shifting under power (generally a no-no), I kept riding it. I also read that changing the oil might help, so I did that. But as I put more miles on the hub the slipping got more frequent. In all cases, the hub never left me stranded and all I had to do was shift it up and down a couple of gears and the slipping disappeared for another 20-50 miles.

I finally sent it in for repair about a month ago and Rohloff USA replaced the whole drive unit. The replacement drive unit was really sweet with almost no break-in required (whereas the original hub "whirred" for about 6-700 miles - especially in seventh gear).

Two weeks ago, however, the replacement hub missed the shift to eighth gear - it did not engage ("click") into gear until after 1/4 to 1/2 a crank revolution. This happened right after I shifted into eight or if I had been coasting in eighth (and, yes, my cables are "slack" and not "tight" as suggested by others here on mtbr).

I contacted Rohloff USA and Tom contacted Germany before sending me an e-mail about some out-sourced axles being made without a necessary slot, which they had to modify at the factory. Tom said this caused one of the prawls to be too slow, causing the mis-shift. Tom suggested I ride it some more to see if it goes away and, if it doesn't, to send it in again for another replacement (they also offered to pay the shipping to them this time ). Rohloff USA's service has been exemplary - at least on getting my wheel back to me quickly and no quibbling about their responsibility to fix it (I am also very thankful that it has a two year warranty).

Perhaps I've had the extremely bad luck of getting two lemons , but am wondering if anyone else has experienced failures/problems such as these. I really hesitated buying something like the Speedhub that I can't fix myself, but was persuaded by the unbelievably large amount of information here on mtbr and elsewhere that basically says they are "bullet proof". And now that I've experienced all it's benefits (I love being able to shift four gears at once!), I can't imagine going back to dérailleurs.

One final comment - I also had the nipple eyelets on a wheel fail after about 700 miles. The wheel was a WTB 29er Speeddisc and, on this wheel, the eyelets aren't off-set that much from the centerline, nor are they oriented toward the flange. Thus, it was theorized by my wheel builder that the large flange diameter and width of the Speedhub combined with the WTB rim resulted in high nipple entry angles and excessive point loading of the nipple eyelets causing their failure. I've since switched to the Rhino Lite with no problems (over 1,000 miles). My point here is that it is my experience that spoke angles (specifically eyelet orientation and off-set) need to be considered when selecting a rim to use with a SpeedHub.

And my apologies for quasi-hijacking this thread, but there seem to be a lot of folks here with Rohloff experience.

brontotx is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote*

10-27-08

I'm referencing /cross posting to an older link that was a hijacked thread from the Sea Otter Classic, because it matches exactly the problems I'm having with major slippage with my Rohloff 500/14/ Speedhub, it just breaks out of gear, the pawls perhaps sticking and not engaging in their respective slots and freewheels when shifted from 3rd to 4th, making a terrrible grinding sound. I flushed and changed the oil in the gearbox, hoping it would clear up the problem, to no avail.

The other thing is, my hub has never felt "right" with the amount of pedalling resistance in gears 3,5,6 and 7, gear 6 being only slightly less resistance, but still noticeably more than gears 1,2 and 4. I've tried riding with and without my Ipod blasting, to desensitize me and have noticed lost time differences on my Edge 305 indications of 10 to 12% or more addtional time to run the same course over what I run with my DT Swiss 440 Freeride hub, so it's quantifiable and not my imagination, as I first thought. I am attributing the longer run times to the inefficiencies of the planetary gearing in the hub.

Has anyone else had this problem with their Rohloff, missed shifts and freewheeling with a terrible grinding sound of ratchets failing to engage, or gears grinding due to not meshing properly?

_*Edit*_ Well I guess I've found my answer. This is an on going problem with Rohloff hubs freewheeling under power, it appears, since 2004.

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-121328.html

_1. The 8 hub cap torx bolts magically come undone on their own allowing bolts to be lost and gear oil to be sprayed everywhere - including on the brakes. This either seems to stem from faulty design or improper torque settings during manufacture. We suggest you contact your national cycling association and get them to encourage Rohloff to do a recall. Contact the International Cycling body at:

UCI
Union Cycliste Internationale
CH 1860 Aigle
Switzerland
Tel:+41 24 468 58 11
Fax:+41 24 468 58 12
E-mail: [email protected]

2. Many riders have found it impossible to remove a worn out cog without either breaking their chain whips or breaking away the 4 aluminum tabs that the special Rohloff cog tool is supposed to lock onto. We suggest you send the hub into a Rohloff service centre to get them to undo it.

3. From time to time, riders have experienced a complete "freewheeling affect" while under power. This can only be explained as a very dangerous occurrence where the gears must momentarily disengage.

4. We have had many complaints of hubs being very "stiff" even when freewheeling. This has been explained as one of the axle bearings gets unseated in a fall or mishap and creates drag. There is a relatively simple fix to this which can be done with a mallet. Simply take the mallet and give the end of the axle a moderate tap. If that does not work, tap the other side of the axle.

anybody have any more info on this?_


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## bsdc (May 1, 2006)

I've had no problems with mine. I would call Rohloff USA and ask their advice.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

RandyBoy said:


> Has anyone else had this problem with their Rohloff, missed shifts and freewheeling with a terrible grinding sound of ratchets failing to engage, or gears grinding due to not meshing properly?


Never had any of those issues and I have equipped over 20 bicycles with the Rohloff Speedhub.

Something is wrong. Thomas over at Rohloff will make it right. Great customer service.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Try it without the external gear box connected and see if it still has that problem.

Odd and even gears do feel different and the bottom 7 gears do feel draggier till it's broken in.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

rockyuphill said:


> Try it without the external gear box connected and see if it still has that problem.
> 
> Odd and even gears do feel different and the bottom 7 gears do feel draggier till it's broken in.


I've read and heard that, this hub at about 700 miles, isn't even close to breaking in. A gear oil change made no perceptible difference except for gear oil now weeps out of it, which I was told by Thomas is perfectly normal, and that I should pull 5ml of the 25ml of gear oil out of the hub. I'm hoping too, that I just got a bad axle by chance.
I'm a big, old and and slow Clyde, like brontotx, and weigh 215 lbs. I am beginning to wonder if my weight was a factor, that and the steep hills around here I ride with grades sometimes to 25% in the San Gabriel Mountains. In the back of my mind, I wonder if the Rohloff is really up to the task for this Bubba, climbing 90% of the time in gears 1-7? I usually only get into gears 8 and above on the downhill portion, and I'm running 38/16, the lowest gearing I can use without voiding the warranty. Seriously, I will shift from 6th to 8th as often as possible (80 to 90% of the time) when climbing to avoid the drag felt in 7th gear.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I don't think it is a weight issue. I weigh 240lbs and have had no issues. Also have used the hub on tandems with up to 400lbs of rider weight with no issues. I have even had one rider with 330lbs with no issue. 

Still sounds to me like something is wrong. Better to check it out now then frustrate yourself only to find out something is wrong. 

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> I don't think it is a weight issue. I weigh 240lbs and have had no issues. Also have used the hub on tandems with up to 400lbs of rider weight with no issues. I have even had one rider with 330lbs with no issue.
> 
> Still sounds to me like something is wrong. Better to check it out now then frustrate yourself only to find out something is wrong.
> 
> ...


I agree, something is wrong... pulled it off, took off tire and tube so item would fit in the box, and shipped it off to an address in Oakland, CA for Rohloff USA. Only $25.00 shipped fully insured to go less than 400 miles!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Thorn's Rohloff PDF talks about a small nuber of low mileage hubs [~1%] having a slipping problem like you seem to be describing [top of page 4].

If an oil change doesn't solve your problem the hub will likely have to go back for service.

Hopefully you have used up all your bad luck. Seems the problem only happens to new hubs so if have some miles on your hub it isn't something you need to worry about.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

vikb said:


> Thorn's Rohloff PDF talks about a small nuber of low mileage hubs [~1%] having a slipping problem like you seem to be describing [top of page 4].
> 
> If an oil change doesn't solve your problem the hub will likely have to go back for service.
> 
> Hopefully you have used up all your bad luck. Seems the problem only happens to new hubs so if have some miles on your hub it isn't something you need to worry about.


Yup... no one is mentioning the serial numbers of the hubs with problems... I wonder why? Recall issue or what? Andy over there at Thorne bikes sent me an email saying the defect level is up to 2%. You'd think those clever Germans could figure out a way to QC and test their hubs 100% for function before boxing them up for sale?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> Yup... no one is mentioning the serial numbers of the hubs with problems... I wonder why? Recall issue or what?


No recall...it's a known issue affecting a small # of hubs. Apparently they can't test for it until the hubs are ridden and really loaded up. However, if you hub doesn't do this early on or you get it fixed and get some miles on it you won't have this issue crop up later.

Rohloff should fix the problem at no cost to you.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

vikb said:


> No recall...it's a known issue affecting a small # of hubs. Apparently they can't test for it until the hubs are ridden and really loaded up. However, if you hub doesn't do this early on or you get it fixed and get some miles on it you won't have this issue crop up later.
> 
> Rohloff should fix the problem at no cost to you.


That would be nice, I'm out of work right now, my cash flow situation sucks.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Weather is too nice and cool this 30th of October. I'm back to running the 440 Freeride hub while the Rohloff is in for repair. Had to switch a bunch of stuff out to do it, but I gotta ride. Wish I had a spare Rohloff wheel laying around for backup like I do with my other hubs.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

RandyBoy said:


> Weather is too nice and cool, I'm back to running the 440 Freeride hub while the Rohloff is in for repair. Had to switch a bunch of stuff out to do it, but I gotta ride. Wish I had a spare Rohloff wheel laying around for backup like I do with my other hubs.


On long road trips, I carry a spare XT wheel with a single large cog, so if the Rohloff wheel gets buggarred, I can switch to SS. It can also serve as a spare for other people.

The "No Failures" is Rohloff marketing, they exclude the hub shell, external parts, & manufacture defects (which covers just about everything). But it's still a pretty tough cookie, and how the Co. stands behind it is even more important.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

All I know is UPS did a wonderful job today and put my package on the wrong truck at 3:32AM this morning, bound for Concorde instead of Oakland, is now labeled "Exception" and my package is rescheduled for delivery now for Friday, Oct 31st. Good thing I fully insured the package for replacement value.

I am _*not*_ a happy camper right about now.


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## brontotx (Apr 5, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> I am _*not*_ a happy camper right about now.


Got your PM and my serial number was originally 54189, so it is about 500 units "newer" than yours, which seems about right seeing that you got yours in April 2006 and I got my wheels built in June of that year. As noted in my post that you copied, Thomas at Rohloff USA in Oakland swapped out the internals of my hub after I experienced excessive slippage and grinding noises. I recall the original hub having some 1300-1500 miles of mostly urban riding when it was sent in for repair. And fluctuating between 280-300 lbs, I'm heavier than you - my roadie friends also comment on my power, so my guess is that we're abusing them similarly (my gearing is 40/16 setup).

The replacement hub broke in much faster (almost no noise from day one), but had a "missed shift" problem when going from seventh to eighth as also mentioned in my post. I took Thomas' advice and rode it for awhile and the problem went away. The replacement hub now has around 1000-1200 miles and it is going strong with no problems whatsoever :thumbsup:.

Given the great service Thomas provided to me, my guess is that he'll do the same for you even though you should have considered sending it in earlier when it was clearly still under the 2 year warranty. Sorry to hear of your UPS troubles, but it will get set straight and you'll be a happy camper again soon enough.

In regard to efficiency, see Rohloff's table 6 where you will note that the efficiency is lower for gears 1-7 than 8-14. Looks like your legs are a good gauge of resistance.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Double post.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I seem to recall mention of this slipping problem in a series of posts in 2005 when I did a search on Google. I wonder how many units this problem really affected?

Interesting post there, about the efficiency losses. My guess is the lab must have received one really well broken in Rohloff hub for testing, because my Garmin Edge and my hub had losses in climbing on the order of 8-11% in my times, on a 4 mile climb over 1800 feet gain in elevation. This is a climb I do regularly, and I haven't changed my riding routine, as well as my heart rate staying in the same zones for all times I've compared. It's a 50 minute work out on my DT Swiss 440 Freeride hub, and a 56 minute work out on the Rohloff, best time in both cases a couple of weeks apart. This is all in gears 1 through 9 when climbing, the majority of it in 3rd through 7th about 80% on the Rohloff. Keep in mind, these are just my personal observations, YMMV.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Sounds like something was just seriously wrong with yours. I would expect your times to be more similar when you get your hub back from repair.

Realize that all gear systems have some sort of inefficiencies. Maybe between 2 and 6% depending on actual gear selection, cleanliness,etc. Lets say your Rohloff was 7-12% less efficient in all gears (which I do not believe to be the case) and you make a steady state 250 watts. Even in an absolute worst case scenario with the traditional system using 5 watts of your power and the Rohloff using 25 watts more, I did a few quick calcs and even that spread of power output would not result in one system being 6min slower than the other (that would be more like 50 watts different) which makes me think something was really wrong. 

I agree that the rohloff hub is slightly less efficient than a well maintained derallieur system but using the same numbers above and accounting for a efficiency level of a 3-4% more (and its not like that in all gears, 8th and 11th are a direct drive gear.) That would account for a 1min slowdown on your climb, not 6.

I think you will like the repaired one.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Sounds like something was just seriously wrong with yours. I would expect your times to be more similar when you get your hub back from repair.
> 
> Realize that all gear systems have some sort of inefficiencies. Maybe between 2 and 6% depending on actual gear selection, cleanliness,etc. Lets say your Rohloff was 7-12% less efficient in all gears (which I do not believe to be the case) and you make a steady state 250 watts. Even in an absolute worst case scenario with the traditional system using 5 watts of your power and the Rohloff using 25 watts more, I did a few quick calcs and even that spread of power output would not result in one system being 6min slower than the other (that would be more like 50 watts different) which makes me think something was really wrong.
> 
> ...


 Dave,

How much loss do you suppose a 6 speed gearbox in my German built, bearing'd and transmission'd Passat has, expressed as a percentage of power lost at the crank? 18 to 20% sound about right? If traverse mounted would 15 to 16% sound correct?

If Rohloff can truly build a transmission with only 3 to 4% efficiency loss overall (as the chart shows on the Thorn webpage), they should get out of the bike transmission business and go large scale and design /build car transmissions, that lower fuel consumption, greenhouse gases, and global warming.


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## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> Dave,
> 
> How much loss do you suppose a 6 speed gearbox in my German built, bearing'd and transmission'd Passat has, expressed as a percentage of power lost at the crank? 18 to 20% sound about right? If traverse mounted would 15 to 16% sound correct?
> 
> If Rohloff can truly build a transmission with only 3 to 4% efficiency loss overall (as the chart shows on the Thorn webpage), they should get out of the bike transmission business and go large scale and design /build car transmissions, that lower fuel consumption, greenhouse gases, and global warming.


The gears in your tranny don't eat the power, the torque converter does. Thus why manual trans is better mileage, less drag. Most driveline power loss is not tranny, it is U-joints and such. If a car could be as simple as a bike and only take low-speed (less than 100 rpm) inputs without having to cancel input for a stop (torque converter), then they would be efficient like a Rohloff.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

chequamagon said:


> The gears in your tranny don't eat the power, the torque converter does. Thus why manual trans is better mileage, less drag....


For a Corvette, the difference in losses is about 20% vs 16%. The auto trans has sun gears, both have a rear differential and u-joints. The TC and the difference in gears account for about 20% of the power train loss, under acceleration. Once you reach cruising speed, the TC locks up in any car made in the last 20 years.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

You guys are also forgetting the effect of the fluids causing a loss and differing operating temps.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

brontotx said:


> Got your PM and my serial number was originally 54189, so it is about 500 units "newer" than yours, which seems about right seeing that you got yours in April 2006 and I got my wheels built in June of that year. As noted in my post that you copied, Thomas at Rohloff USA in Oakland swapped out the internals of my hub after I experienced excessive slippage and grinding noises. I recall the original hub having some 1300-1500 miles of mostly urban riding when it was sent in for repair. And fluctuating between 280-300 lbs, I'm heavier than you - my roadie friends also comment on my power, so my guess is that we're abusing them similarly (my gearing is 40/16 setup).
> 
> The replacement hub broke in much faster (almost no noise from day one), but had a "missed shift" problem when going from seventh to eighth as also mentioned in my post. I took Thomas' advice and rode it for awhile and the problem went away. The replacement hub now has around 1000-1200 miles and it is going strong with no problems whatsoever :thumbsup:.
> 
> ...


Is your hub a Cross Country QR axleplate or a throughbolt axle plate on your Rohloff? My serial number is 505XX so that is a range of at least 3600 hubs between yours and mine on the production line.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Never had any of those issues and I have equipped over 20 bicycles with the Rohloff Speedhub.
> 
> Something is wrong. Thomas over at Rohloff will make it right. Great customer service.
> 
> ...


What is your definition of great customer service? Please be specific, so I can adjust my expectations accordingly.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

11=07-08


Neil at Rohloff has indicated that they replaced my gear unit yesterday and that today, my Rohloff will ship out. He didn't get the chance to write up the invoice yet, I'm assuming yesterday was a long day for him, he sent the email at 11 pm last night
.
At this point, I've got my fingers crossed and I'm not going to assume anything until I've had the chance to wring out to goods thoroughly on many rides before I give the seal of approval.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

RandyBoy said:


> What is your definition of great customer service? Please be specific, so I can adjust my expectations accordingly.


Hard to read sarcasm over the internet but I hope this is sarcastic. If I read these posts correctly your hub has been repaired and turned around in 7 days since Thomas received it? That is a good turnaround time. Also seems as he has been responsive and communicative.

Things happen, No process or item is 100% All one can hope for is a constant improvement and reduction of defects. Sadly, you were just in that off group but it seems to me that everyone at Rohloff is working to give you a satisfactory unit.

David Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

chequamagon said:


> The gears in your tranny don't eat the power, the torque converter does. Thus why manual trans is better mileage, less drag. Most driveline power loss is not tranny, it is U-joints and such. If a car could be as simple as a bike and only take low-speed (less than 100 rpm) inputs without having to cancel input for a stop (torque converter), then they would be efficient like a Rohloff.


LOL.... The Rohloff doesn't have a fluid drive or hydraulic torque converter, which is a self shifting automatic transmission feature, so it's a non issue in this case. We are talking about manual transmissions here. A car has a clutch because the engine is always spinning, even when the car is stopped, the bicycle hub replaces that clutch or torque converter with a star one way ratchet system instead, since you stop pedaling when your are stopped on a bicycle.

So yes, we are interested here in measuring losses of the transmission or gearbox. When the ratchet engages, it's direct drive, with the exception of the very, very tiny losses undel load from the bearings the star ratchet rides on.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

brontotx said:


> Got your PM and my serial number was originally 54189, .


Was originally 54189? I'm curious, what is your serial number now? Did they relace a new hub that you have a new serial number, or are the internals guts of the gearbox serial numbered also, so that all part numbers must match?


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> ...He didn't get the chance to write up the invoice yet....


Did you get an invoice? What was done and how much $$?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Did you get an invoice? What was done and how much $$?


Interestingly, earlier, you stated that Rohloff should fix the hub at no cost to me. Which is as it should be.

Let's just say it was for too much, and I'm not a happy camper about how Rohloff handled a hub that crapped out with 500 documented lift assisted gear 8 through 14 miles on it in it's whole life, that the lower 7 gears are defective. It never shifted correctly from gear 3 to 4 from the factory,from day 1 that those gears were finally put into use. The stop watch doesn't lie, my best time for the same 4 mile 1800 veritcal feet climb ride went from 56 minute and 16 seconds with the Rohloff to 50:05 just by switching back to my DT Swiss 440FreeRide rear wheel with SRAM 990 11-34 gears and a 971 chain.

I can buy three 970 cassettes and three 971 chains for what I've spent trying to correct on the defective Rohloff that they never should have let out of the factory from day 1. I guess you could say that's 3 new, not rebuilt or remanufactered gearboxes.

Maybe a Rohloff is not for me, I can't afford to maintain one. $150 bill in materials,shipping and repairs over 200 miles kinda sucks :skep: I have a 1996 passat TDI VW transmission with 246,000 miles on it with zero maintenance expenses, lifetime synthetic gear oil, and it never misses shifts or has been in for repair, ever. It also doesn't leak.Inter


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

RandyBoy said:


> Maybe a Rohloff is not for me, I can't afford to maintain one. $150 bill in materials,shipping and repairs over 200 miles kinda sucks :skep: I have a 1996 passat TDI VW transmission with 246,000 miles on it with zero maintenance expenses, lifetime synthetic gear oil, and it never misses shifts or has been in for repair, ever. It also doesn't leak.


RandyBoy. Stuff happens...Obviously you are not a happy camper right now and I can understand. Before you decide you can't afford what you already bought, why don't you ride it for a while and then decide?

Of all the rohloff hubs I have spec'd I have only had issue with one, some of the others have gone over 30-40k miles now. I would call that a good record.

to give a different point of view. I own a VW 02 Jetta that is the worst car I have ever owned. Am I to assume that all jetta's are terrible? Obviously many seem to love theirs.

Also, would like to know how the new hub works. You keep giving us old riding times from a hub that was malfunctioning so badly the guts had to be replaced. New numbers after you break in your hub would be appreciated. Try and keep an open mind on it.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I've appealed to someone at Rohloff DE, I"m withholding comment until they get back to me.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> ...crapped out with 500 documented lift assisted gear 8 through 14 miles on it in it's whole life, that the lower 7 gears are defective. It never shifted correctly from gear 3 to 4 from the factory,from day 1 that those gears were finally put into use...


As documented by an ebay seller? The lesson I'm learning is stay away from used, it sounds like you got stuck.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> As documented by an ebay seller? The lesson I'm learning is stay away from used, it sounds like you got stuck.


So, I want to get this right...Randyboy, did you buy the hub used with known issues? and is it out of the 2 year warranty now?

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> So, I want to get this right...Randyboy, did you buy the hub used with known issues? and is it out of the 2 year warranty now?


It was used:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4928452#post4928452



randyboy said:


> I found one very lightly used for a little over half that. I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep the hub for a long time, so, amortize the cost over say 10 years, and it becomes quite manageable, the up front cost.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> It was used:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4928452#post4928452


Mmmm. We have often forgotten that service comes at a price. It is always a risk to buy something used and although I have scored big time doing it, every once in a while it bites you in the butt.

If for instance, the hub had been purchased new from me, it would have been warrantied for 2 years and I would have taken care of all shipping and logistics lest something go wrong. I could have also provided a spare rohloff wheel to use during repair. The difference? What do you get for the price? Service!

If you buy used you takes your chances. The previous person probably disliked the hub because it was defective, sold it to you instead of having it repaired within the warranty period and now RandyBoy got stuck with it. Sounds like Rohloff USA is keeping things reasonable for you and I don't see what Rohloff Germany is going to do for Randyboy or should do for Randyboy.

In the end, I am pretty sure Randyboy will like the hub, it will work a lot better and he still would have paid a lot less than a new one. With all the money he is saving by driving his VW to the million mile mark it will be inconsequential anyways? Randyboy. Maybe you should apprentice as a plumber for your new career. I heard in the last election they make a quarter mil a year. Can afford a lot of hubs with that:thumbsup:

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

This thread has turned rather comical with coments from the peanut gallery.

Some correspondence with some real Rohloff experts.

We do not do any gear unit servicing in the US, so whenever there is a slipping issue, we swap the unit for a new one and the old one eventually makes its way back to Germany for warranty service. You are correct that the units are have some adjustability with shims. If you lived in Europe and sent your hub in for service it would be adjusted and reinstalled. The factory has measurment equipment and a test machine for the gear units to determine the proper shim sizes and then make sure the unit does not slip or shift with improperly. All units are tested initially during assembly, but some make it out with issues. These issues almost always appear immediately, which makes sense with your hub since it was still practically new when you got it.

Neil

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Randy wrote:

What exactly did you find as the problem in your testing of the hub that indicated a gear unit needed replacement as opposed to an adjustment (like on a derailleurer system)? Just curious, transmissions are usually adjustable, at least on cars, like adjusting the lash of the gears meshing on differentials on rear ends for the pinion gea with proper shimming.

Thanks,

Randy

From Andy Blance, designer at Thorn Bicycles and SJS.

Hi Randy,

In all that I have written I make 2 things very clear.

[1] Between 1 and 2% of Rohloff hubs don't function correctly when new and require a trip to Rohloff's factory&#8230;you have one of these&#8230;and it won't repair itself!

[2] I really do not rate Rohloff at all when used in frames that are not specifically built for them (that is frames which use a chain tensioner) you will get almost all the problems of derailleur gears and the new ones presented by Rohloff. You will get 97% efficiency from the chain tensioner multiplied by 97% efficiency from the hub&#8230;that's 94% efficiency.

I suggest that you get your friend to complain directly to Rohloff in Germany, as if he still had the hub and see what they do. Certainly Rohloff in Germany offer outstanding service but I know nothing about Rohloff USA.

Regards,

Andy B.

Anyway, sorry to trouble you with my problems with Rohloff... looks like a new hub, is documented like a new hub, has 300 climbing miles on it like a new hub, and Rohloff USA's main man says it's practically a new hub. Shame that Rohloff can't offer a 10,000 mile guarantee on a new hub, supposedly 1/5th of it's life. I can't imagine what wears out on a Rohloff sitting in the garage during the off season for 9 month before I got it, that would cause it to slip in 4th gear, can you?


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

If 1% are failing out of the box, that's a SPC/QA nightmare. If there really is a problem, it'll be documented here. I've given up on used, same kind of stuff has happened to me.

- If you only paid $200 to have your hub made new, I'd wonder why yer biatching? 

- Is a Rolhoff service in the USA fixed at $200 and you get all new internals?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

That seemed like an honest reply from Neil at Rohloff and is what I have come to expect from them.

I agree with pursuiter that 200 for all new internals is still a great value and Randyboy has made out well.

And Randyboy. I think we have all kept this a civilized and positive discussion. If you feel that comments from a 15 year framebuilder who has extensive experience with Rohloff hubs and the good advice from all the other posters here is the "peanut gallery" I beg to differ.

If you are going to minimize the input of others why do you even ask the questions in the first place?

I can only take away from this that your mind was made up before you even wrote. BTW. How is a hub company supposed to know that you have 10k miles or 5k or anything. There is no odometer on these things. Time is the only fair way of guaging the warranty period. Should they just fix it for life? How did you contribute to the well being and profits of Rohloff by buying it used? I can see your beef if you were the original purchaser but alas......You are not.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> If 1% are failing out of the box, that's a SPC/QA nightmare. If there really is a problem, it'll be documented here. I've given up on used, same kind of stuff has happened to me.


Care to share how you bought a used Rohloff and what the remedy was?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

There is a reason why buying used is cheaper - you give up a couple things for certain:

- knowledge of how the product was used
- in most cases the warranty is not transferable

You got the Rohloff for about 50% of its new cost which is a good deal, but there are no free rides and it seems you got stuck with one of the few that needs service out of the box.

If Rohloff USA will give you new internals for $200 I'd jump on it. That's a great deal and if you really want you can sell the refurbished Rohloff and get your money out of it.

Next time if you want certainty don't buy used.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> Care to share how you bought a used Rohloff and what the remedy was?


not Rohloff specifically, used in general. Sellers always seem to exaggerate the condition of used products, at least the stuff I buy.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

vikb said:


> There is a reason why buying used is cheaper - you give up a couple things for certain:
> 
> - knowledge of how the product was used
> - in most cases the warranty is not transferable
> ...


 I think the guts are remanufactured, not new.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> I think the guts are remanufactured, not new.


The point is they work and you'll get 10,000's of kms out of them so that's great.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Great.... I'm thinking at this point that with a new set of guts that work, and fresh back from the factory, I should have another 2 year warranty on the new gear box. Heck it's new, start from scratch, new 2 year warranty from the date it goes in to service.

Since I won't be installing it on my bike when it's returned, I'll be putting it up on Ebay as brand new, because it is. Someone should be having a very Merry Rohloff Christmas this year, compliments of me and Ebay.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> Great.... I'm thinking at this point that with a new set of guts that work, and fresh back from the factory, I should have another 2 year warranty on the new gear box. Heck it's new, start from scratch, new 2 year warranty from the date it goes in to service.
> 
> Since I won't be installing it on my bike when it's returned, I'll be putting it up on Ebay as brand new, because it is.


Well I wouldn't assume you get a 2 yr warranty at all - although if you rode it and had an issue I'm sure they would sort it out for you, but if you got through the initial break in without trouble and had some issue 9 months from now at say 6000kms don't be shocked if you'd have to pay for service. You paid $150 to get new internals - that doesn't get you the same benefits of buying a new hub.

The good news is if you can get a few hundred kms on that hub and don't have any issues it isn't likely to develop some down the road. The trouble you've had so far only happens with a small number of new hubs.

The bad news is if you sell it on Ebay the buyer will get zero warranty/service from Rohloff [unless they are being exceptionally nice] because just like you they'll be buying a used piece of gear and Rohloff has no obligation to honour anything once you sell it. Of course that's not your problem.

safe riding,

Vik


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> Since I won't be installing it on my bike when it's returned, I'll be putting it up on Ebay as brand new, because it is. Someone should be having a very Merry Rohloff Christmas this year, compliments of me and Ebay.


how's that song go, "buy two tickets and don't go in!"

Just because you had a less than perfect first experience doesn't give reason to giving up (since Rohloff made good for cheap, I refuse to call your's "a bad experience").

Suck it up, build it into a bike and ride it :thumbsup:


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> I can lead a jackass to water... but I can't make 'em drink.
> .


I know what you mean....:madman:

Let's go over this again:


you bought a used hub - Rohloff does not owe you a warranty or free repairs regardless of how much or little the hub was used
Rohloff is willing to repair the hub at a reasonable cost
the problem you have had affects only new hubs very early on in their service lives and is something that would be covered by the 2 year warranty under normal circumstances
you bought a nearly new, but used hub at about 50% of the price of a new one and when you have some issue with it you want all the warranty coverage of a new hub and to be treated as if you bought it for full price

You have been treated reasonably by Rohloff either repair the hub and sell it or ride it, but get over your hard done by attitude you didn't get screwed over you were just unlucky - that's not Rohloff's fault. They would have been happy to sell you a new hub initially and then they would have backed it up with a full warranty. You wanted to save 50% of the new price and bought a used one on Ebay - that didn't work out so good - that's your fault not Rohloff's.

cheers,

Vik


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

vikb said:


> I know what you mean....:madman:
> 
> Let's go over this again:
> 
> ...


No Vik, I paid considerably more than 50% for a near new hub closer to top dollar like you see on Ebay, but I never even considered Ebay, I placed a wanted ad for one. then I had to pay for a rim, and spokes and getting it built, tensioned and trued. I only want out of it what I've put in to it, and it's in far better condition now than it was when I got it, all the guts are new, it's a 14 speed now, not a 13.5 speed with a 4th gear that works when it wants to...

I defy you to prove how in any way I am at fault for a Rohloff that is a 13 speed when I bought it with 4 to 500 at most documented miles on it? The only service I did was to use the Roholff kit to do an oil change at 650 miles, way sooner than the recomended 3000 miles and ride it as it was intended. Nothing more, nothing less, as did the original owner. How do you find fault with that? ut:

You remind me of people that buy VW TDI diesels with Bosch injection systems and run them on B100 biodiesel when Bosch and every other injector pump manufacturer states that running anything over B5 constitutes misfueling. But you still run B100 because you can't deal with the war that you think is over oil, because you can't remember 9-11-2001. But the injector pump ran fine on diesel, until you introduced Animal fat and waste oil produced biodiesel into it. Did the vendor get fat on you while you bought boutique fuel for your car at a $1.00 more per gallon than regular diesel, then go out of business about the time your Injector pump took a crap? Some people buy the myth and believe they are saving the planet, when in reality they are sold a bill of goods. Can't tell you how much money I've made repairing Bosch injector pumps that got killed by biodiesel, and I advise the owners to not run biodiesel over 5%. But they continue to buy the co op fuel.

Rohloff has not advised me to do anything different in riding, gearing, shifting, on a practically brand new hub etc.... so I must not have been doing anything wrong... but the hub failed anyways. By your logic, I'm unlucky and at fault and am liable to pay to get it fixed. I think liberalism is a disease where there is no definition for the word "Accountability" and terms like "no fault" takes the place of reality.
I need to go smoke my peace pipe, so I can halucinate some more about how *b*tchen Rohloff hubs are.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:



> No Vik, I paid considerably more than 50% for a near new hub closer to top dollar like you see on Ebay, but I never even considered Ebay, I placed a wanted ad for one. then I had to pay for a rim, and spokes and getting it built, tensioned and trued. I only want out of it what I've put in to it, and it's in far better condition now than it was when I got it, all the guts are new, it's a 14 speed now, not a 13.5 speed with a 4th gear that works when it wants to...





bsdc said:


> I had a Rohloff wheel built and installed at a local bike shop about 9 months ago. I think the total with taxes and all was about $1800. That includes Ergon grips and setting me up tubeless as well.





RandyBoy said:


> I found one very lightly used for a little over half that. I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep the hub for a long time, so, amortize the cost over say 10 years, and it becomes quite manageable, the up front cost.


Whether you paid 50% or 90% of new when you bought a used hub, Rohloff still doesn't owe you a warranty or free repairs.

Just get the hub back and sell it if you don't want to ride it. I understand the MSRP has gone up in the US so you will have a better chance of getting the money you need out of it.

cheers,

Vik


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks Vic, I might be able to give you a $25 sales commission if you can kick a customer my way to get this out of my shop.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> Thanks Vic, I might be able to give you a $25 sales if you can kick a customer my way to get this out of my shop.


No thanks - good luck selling your hub.


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## ALMEIDA (Mar 23, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> I've appealed to someone at Rohloff DE, I"m withholding comment until they get back to me.


RandyBoy

What did you ask them??
Did you still get no response from ROHLOFF Germany??

ALMEIDA


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

You know Vic, why don't you propose that question to the folks at Rohloff USA, under your name instead of mine, and post what their response is here...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> You know Vic, why don't you propose that question to the folks at Rohloff USA, under your name instead of mine, and post what their response is here...


I'm not interested in doing that for 2 reasons:

1) I don't have any issue with my hub and I'm not interested in getting tangled up in your situation.

2) If you have to have other people surreptitiously get info for you from a company chances are you've burned all your bridges and the answer I get wouldn't necessarily apply to you.

cheers,

Vik


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

Alright, I think this thread is done.

Lockin' er down.

-gregg, Site Manager


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