# I'm a convert



## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

I went for a 18.8 mile ride yesterday (1 hour 11 minutes) and it is the first time in 4 years that my knees haven't ached after a bike ride. The ride before that (on my Crosstrail) was 13.3 miles (1 hour 18 minutes) in the same windy conditions with a lot of pain afterwards. I normally ride 1400-1500 miles per year.

edit to change the distance according to the Mission Control app.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Cheers!


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Was your Crosstail set up properly? Was it a good fit? 1400 miles is a lot on a bike with a poor fit.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

I had adjusted everything for a comfortable fit. I'm 5'7" and the Crosstrail was a small frame. This new bike is a Medium frame. Supposedly the Levos fit a little small, but I did not have a small frame to try.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Congrats on the new ride. My knees hurt when I push too big a gear.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

16mph average? Was this a road ride?

In any case, it's probably your fit/cadence that is causing the problem, if the new setup isn't hurting you. Go get a professional fitting.

-Walt


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Congrats on the new ride. My knees hurt when I push too big a gear.


Thanks. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with pushing too hard. I always try to do that ride as fast as possible. Best time on my Crosstrail on a totally calm day was 1 hour 15 minutes and it's not totally flat.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

tried one today at the trail.. i'm on my fatboy and while giving way on an entry to a single track, guy comes out riding a levo..told him "cheater" in jest and we spoke for a couple of minutes regarding his bike.. he let me try it out and damn that thing is amazing.. he tried out my fatboy with bluto and nextie tri spoke rims and he said the same thing, "cant believe how the bike pedals".. couple of other mtbrs rode by and said his bike was illegal to ride on this trails.. we all had no problems with it, more like shared info.. time to save up for a comp version.. red.. another convert here..


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

I don't think you will regret it. I went on my 3rd 18+ mile ride in 4 days (one day it was raining) today and strapped on a heart monitor. The low was 140 and the high was 159 with a total time of around 1 hour 12 minutes. It's still a good work out. The way the wind has been here I would not have rode my Crosstrail (or any other bike) these days. I'm really glad I bought it. It wasn't that many years ago there were people who thought snow boarders shouldn't be allowed on the mountains, now it's an Olympic sport. Given time, I think people will realize these are not all that evil and accept them.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm pretty sure I'd regret spending that sort of money on a bike I couldn't legally ride on my favorite trails. Guess that's just me though


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

The only constant in life is change.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Just found out spesh has it on fatboy as well... now ieally want one


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Sharp things said:


> The only constant in life is change.


That's true but, the change isn't in your favor. The Emotorbike bans are increasing so you may want to check local regulations before dropping a lot of hard earned coin on one.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sharp things said:


> I went for a 18.8 mile ride yesterday (1 hour 11 minutes) and it is the first time in 4 years that my knees haven't ached after a bike ride. The ride before that (on my Crosstrail) was 13.3 miles (1 hour 18 minutes) in the same windy conditions with a lot of pain afterwards. I normally ride 1400-1500 miles per year.


You could also just use lower gears and go slower on the bicycle, assuming fit is the same your knees hurt because you're producing a lot more watts when riding the bicycle compared to the e-bike. If you geared down until you were producing the same watts that you average on the e-bike you'd get the same workout in the same amount of time but instead of traveling 19 miles @ 16mph you'd only go maybe 10 miles and average 8mph. Heart rate would be the same too.

I admit that 16mph is a lot more fun than 8 though.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Sharp things said:


> I went for a 18.8 mile ride yesterday (1 hour 11 minutes) and it is the first time in 4 years that my knees haven't ached after a bike ride. The ride before that (on my Crosstrail) was 13.3 miles (1 hour 18 minutes) in the same windy conditions with a lot of pain afterwards. I normally ride 1400-1500 miles per year.
> 
> edit to change the distance according to the Mission Control app.


 As said, get a good bike fit. Try spinning instead of mashing. Do any cross training/ core fitness? Helps me a lot. No need for a motor for me.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Sharp things said:


> I don't think you will regret it. I went on my 3rd 18+ mile ride in 4 days (one day it was raining) today and strapped on a heart monitor. The low was 140 and the high was 159 with a total time of around 1 hour 12 minutes. It's still a good work out. The way the wind has been here I would not have rode my Crosstrail (or any other bike) these days. I'm really glad I bought it. It wasn't that many years ago there were people who thought snow boarders shouldn't be allowed on the mountains, now it's an Olympic sport. Given time, I think people will realize these are not all that evil and accept them.


 Canada? Good luck with that. Not legal for may areas of the US.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> You could also just use lower gears and go slower on the bicycle, assuming fit is the same your knees hurt because you're producing a lot more watts when riding the bicycle compared to the e-bike. If you geared down until you were producing the same watts that you average on the e-bike you'd get the same workout in the same amount of time but instead of traveling 19 miles @ 16mph you'd only go maybe 10 miles and average 8mph. Heart rate would be the same too.
> 
> I admit that 16mph is a lot more fun than 8 though.


That pretty much sums it up. Seriously a granny ring will let just about anybody ride unless they just can't pedal. They will be a lot slower though.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

av8or said:


> Just found out spesh has it on fatboy as well... now ieally want one
> 
> View attachment 1141711


Makes sense to go big on the tires if you have a motor to help. Why not?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

av8or said:


> couple of other mtbrs rode by and said his bike was illegal to ride on this trails.. we all had no problems with it, more like shared info...


This is called "self policing." Land managers beg us to do this so that trails can remain open and safe. If we don't self police, they either have to bring in actual law enforcement, which is expensive and likely won't happen, or they shut the trails down due to misuse. Guess which one is more likely to happen? When another trail user tells you that you are misusing a public asset, listen and thank them for correcting your stupidity. Yes, stupidity. If ebikes are not allowed on that trail system, then that rider was poaching. Not doing any favors for his preferred hobby or those others who are fighting for legal access.

I'm happy someone stepped up and said something. More people should. It is not a live and let live world. People's actions affect others. Next time, listen.

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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

JACKL said:


> Makes sense to go big on the tires if you have a motor to help. Why not?


I actually have a regular fatboy for 3 yrs now.. never needed a motor, but this will be for the wifey so she can come with me on my trail rides and of course for me when days come that i just want an "easy ride"..


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> This is called "self policing." Land managers beg us to do this so that trails can remain open and safe. If we don't self police, they either have to bring in actual law enforcement, which is expensive and likely won't happen, or they shut the trails down due to misuse. Guess which one is more likely to happen? When another trail user tells you that you are misusing a public asset, listen and thank them for correcting your stupidity. Yes, stupidity. If ebikes are not allowed on that trail system, then that rider was poaching. Not doing any favors for his preferred hobby or those others who are fighting for legal access.
> 
> I'm happy someone stepped up and said something. More people should. It is not a live and let live world. People's actions affect others. Next time, listen.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


The problem wih your statement is while we all acknowledged that his bike was not allowed on the trails we rode on, the same mtbrs rode an illegal single track after.. yes we self police but you can't be righteous and then break the rules yourselves.. and i know we are all gulity to this, one way or another


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Red herring. Someone doing something wrong does not give you a pass to do something wrong. 

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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

That's a nice double-whammy for legal access going forward. Poaching on top of poaching. Lovely.

-Walt


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

av8or said:


> The problem wih your statement is while we all acknowledged that his bike was not allowed on the trails we rode on, the same mtbrs rode an illegal single track after.. yes we self police but you can't be righteous and then break the rules yourselves.. and i know we are all gulity to this, one way or another


Nice try, pretty convenient that you forgot that part in your original story.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Nice try, pretty convenient that you forgot that part in your original story.


Didn't want to hijack op's thread.. the entire "whole" incident has nothing to do with his message.. just want to relate that i am a convert as well.. perhaps you should start another thread ( and we all know there are dozens now ) about why ebikes should not be allowed on trails.. sorry op.. now back to original topic


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Walt said:


> That's a nice double-whammy for legal access going forward. Poaching on top of poaching. Lovely.
> 
> -Walt


Let's stop all the lies here, Everyone does it once in awhile.. mind you that day, i followed all the rules.. stayed all legal trails.. sorry again op.. now back to your regular programming..


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

av8or said:


> Let's stop all the lies here, Everyone does it once in awhile.. mind you that day, i followed all the rules.. stayed all legal trails.. sorry again op.. now back to your regular programming..


 Speak for yourself. Not a poacher, so much good, legal riding in my area, no need. OP ever get that bike fit for sore knees?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

av8or said:


> Let's stop all the lies here, Everyone does it once in awhile..


Fake news^ I know for a fact that not everyone does it.

Hard for me to tell if people here are being sarcastic or just trolling so I apologize in advance if it's the first and you're welcome if it's the second.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

av8or said:


> Let's stop all the lies here, Everyone does it once in awhile.. mind you that day, i followed all the rules.. stayed all legal trails.. sorry again op.. now back to your regular programming..


Bullshyte


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

In fact I do not poach. Very few people do. 

-Walt


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

not a poacher.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

I like to shoot varmints.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

av8or said:


> I actually have a regular fatboy for 3 yrs now.. never needed a motor, but this will be for the wifey so she can come with me on my trail rides and of course for me when days come that i just want an "easy ride".. my fatboy


Similarly, I bought my wife a Levo FSR last year so she could tag along with my son and I. I've used it a few times as well over the last year. The Levo would never replace a standard bike for me, but it's a fun alternative if I'm feeling hung over but still want to get out, or if I'm want to keep with much stronger friends.


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## drboudreaux (Nov 1, 2004)

I saw a story on the news about 1/3 of the world is overweight, and America is leading the way.

Ebikes.

Just saying.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Would it be better to get more people out biking, even if it's on on paved streets (first timers, if they tried an ebike and liked it)?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Sharp things said:


> Would it be better to get more people out biking, even if it's on on paved streets (first timers, if they tried an ebike and liked it)?


Wouldn't that be akin to riding a moped?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Sharp things said:


> Would it be better to get more people out biking, even if it's on on paved streets (first timers, if they tried an ebike and liked it)?


How is that different than taking them out the first time on an actual bike? You're not doing anyone any favors by taking them out on an ebike first.

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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> How is that different than taking them out the first time on an actual bike? You're not doing anyone any favors by taking them out on an ebike first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


The question was posed as a generalization. Is it better for someone to get a little bit of exercise or none at all?


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## drboudreaux (Nov 1, 2004)

Why the justification for it? 

Have we really become so inept and lazy as a society that justifications are needed for why someone can't just ride a bike as of others have done in the past, and as thousands of others do on a daily basis in parts of the world that aren't Fat America?

"We should accommodate laziness by encouraging engaging in assisted exercise." 

What is that? It speaks volumes about our society today. Gag. 

If enabling others threatens bike trails, and my ability to exercise and enjoy said trails, that sucks.

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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I'm not wading into the eBike argument ********.

The knee pain thing is an issue. I agree with a bike fit and proper gearing being an issue. If you are pushing 100 watts on both bikes (but going faster obvious with the motor), then the problem isn't being corrected by the motor but by the issue you have with the other bike.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Walt said:


> In fact I do not poach. Very few people do.
> 
> -Walt


I'm glad you live somewhere you can ride MTBs on singletrack, and don't need to poach.

However, you really should quality your statement "Very few people do" to include "where I ride."

Come visit me in the SF EastBay or NorthBay and you will learn of a very different reality. ZERO bike access to ALL singletrack (hiking) trails on public lands for decades. Doubtful it will ever change.

Here, 100% of MTBers who ride singletrack are poaching. Every day. Year round. Its what is "normal" for this area. ALL bike shops in the area with a weekly/monthly shop ride are poaching singletrack hiking trails, but they will not admit that in forums.

Virtually no enforcement, except busy weekends/holidays. All the hikers know the MTBers are there. No MTB or eMTB haters met on _these_ trails.

Usually meet 3-5 riders each weekday morning. Actual hikers, maybe 1-2 a week.

Just a different place with a very different perspective.

Catfish ...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Um, sounds like you need to move. There's a big country out there with a lot of legal mountain biking. Cost of living tends to be a load cheaper than the Bay area too!

-Walt


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

motocatfish said:


> I'm glad you live somewhere you can ride MTBs on singletrack, and don't need to poach.
> 
> However, you really should quality your statement "Very few people do" to include "where I ride."
> 
> ...


So a quick google search turned up quite a few trails. However, a lot of these look like fire roads, mellow rides, etc. Is that the scoop?Bay Area Mountain Bike Rides

If so, I agree with Walt!


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

av8or said:


> Let's stop all the lies here, Everyone does it once in awhile..


Not true!!


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Walt said:


> Um, sounds like you need to move. There's a big country out there with a lot of legal mountain biking. Cost of living tends to be a load cheaper than the Bay area too!
> 
> -Walt


Welcome to my local riding area!








I have yet to find any 8-foot-wide singletrack, but I keep looking! And of course ... ebikes don't exist! ;-)

Moving? I've spent the last decade trying to move my lovely wife. She wasn't ready to retire yet. Then junior & his wife settled 4 miles away last year ... we ain't moving anywhere.

But I do disappear with toys for a few weeks, as frequently as possible. 

Catfish ...


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## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

motocatfish said:


> Just a different place with a very different perspective.
> Catfish ...


Hmmmm... Maybe you live in an area where there are more open-minded and chill people? 



motocatfish said:


> I have yet to find any 8-foot-wide singletrack, but I keep looking! And of course ... ebikes don't exist! ;-)
> 
> Moving? I've spent the last decade trying to move my lovely wife. She wasn't ready to retire yet. Then junior & his wife settled 4 miles away last year ... we ain't moving anywhere.
> 
> ...


Walnut Creek, CA? Nice! I'll have to hit you up for riding the next time I'm visiting my family in Danville! If my kids and their significant others moved close to me (whenever I get to that stage in life), I wouldn't move either.

And oh, BTW, brace for more of the inevitable "Poacher!" posts (complete with gnashing of teeth and exploding heads) in 3... 2... 1...


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## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

Thought you all would like to see the true definitions of what an e-bike is in the eyes of our law. I'm sure it will soon filter through only took a few months to change here.

Electric Bikes on Pathways
Electric bikes (e-bikes) are rapidly growing in popularity and Calgarians are now looking to use them in our city parks. All bicycles must obey the Parks & Pathway Bylaws. Gasoline powered motorized bicycles and are not allowed on pathways or trails.
What is an e-bike?
An e-bike is a bicycle that has an electric motor that can be used to move the bike. We recognize pedelecs and power on demand bikes as the two main types of e-bikes.
Pedelecs (allowed)
Pedelecs are e-bikes with pedal assist systems. They use sensors to activate the motor when the bike is pedaled. The motor turns off when pedaling stops or when the e-bike reaches 32km/h.They are designed to enhance the power of the rider, not to replace it. Since pedaling is required on pedelecs, they are considered bicycles.
Pedelecs are allowed on pathways and trails, except where bicycles are prohibited.
Power on demand (not allowed)
Power on demand e-bikes use a throttle to activate the motor. The motor (or motors) on these bikes are independent of the pedals, making pedaling an option. You can either cruise using the power of the motor without pedaling or pedal while using the motor. The motor turns off when the brakes are applied or when the off button on the throttle is pushed. Since pedaling is not required, they are not considered bicycles.
Power on demand e-bikes are not allowed on pathways or trails.

Now if us silly backwards Canadians can tell the difference between the two types of E-bikes why can you guys?


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## russmu66 (Nov 11, 2007)

Mountie said:


> Thought you all would like to see the true definitions of what an e-bike is in the eyes of our law. I'm sure it will soon filter through only took a few months to change here.
> 
> Electric Bikes on Pathways
> Electric bikes (e-bikes) are rapidly growing in popularity and Calgarians are now looking to use them in our city parks. All bicycles must obey the Parks & Pathway Bylaws. Gasoline powered motorized bicycles and are not allowed on pathways or trails.
> ...


Pass the popcorn... this is gonna be good. :eekster:


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Mountie is funny. Obviously new here and hasn't even begun to catch up on what has been discussed here. We have seen, many times, the same stuff he has been posting. He's not helping or addressing anything new. He should probably spend a few weeks just going through all of the old ebike threads. He might have a better understanding of what he is up against.

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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

motocatfish said:


> I'm glad you live somewhere you can ride MTBs on singletrack, and don't need to poach.
> 
> However, you really should quality your statement "Very few people do" to include "where I ride."
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about? If you're talking about Sonoma County, your are 100% wrong. Marin County has very few single track trails open to bikes but it is heavily enforced. I know for a fact that a large number of hikers in MC hate mountain bikes. One of the board members of The Marin Conservation League actually attacked a rider on a fire road here.


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## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> Mountie is funny. Obviously new here and hasn't even begun to catch up on what has been discussed here. We have seen, many times, the same stuff he has been posting. He's not helping or addressing anything new. He should probably spend a few weeks just going through all of the old ebike threads. He might have a better understanding of what he is up against.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


What is Mountie up against?

Looks like he lives and rides in a place where it's legal to ride his bike.

I respectfully disagree that Mountie isn't helping or addressing anything new. Au contraire - he's actually sharing a real world example that shows where "the powers that be" seem to have expended a little more mental energy, thought, and reason than "ban it all! / these suck!"...

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

He is posting a local ordinance that is very similar to several states motor vehicle codes that classify ebikes as bicycles for the purpose of commuting. These have been posted and discussed throughout this forum. He is adding nothing new.

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## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> He is posting a local ordinance that is very similar to several states motor vehicle codes that classify ebikes as bicycles for the purpose of commuting. These have been posted and discussed throughout this forum. He is adding nothing new.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I didn't see anything Mountie posted referring to commuting. Just saw some language that said pathways *AND* trails:



Mountie said:


> ...Pedelecs are allowed on pathways and trails, except where bicycles are prohibited.


Canada is a big country perhaps a lot of people commute on trails there...? Or maybe a lot of people commute on trails where you live?

(I honestly don't know. I don't see anyone commuting on trails where I live, [at least here in So Cal, bike pathways - definitely yes. Trails, no. I don't know, maybe some rangers at National Parks commute on trails]. I may be wrong.)

So, back to the OP's main reason for starting this thread - glad to hear you've found something that you enjoy and your knees are feeling good!

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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Thanks.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

This is a misnomer and something ebike proponents have run with even though they are misinformed. "Trails" in this context does NOT mean dirt, single track trails. It means paved or gravel city pathways. These are often called trails. In Utah we have the Murdock Canal trail, Provo River trail, etc. These are paved, multi-use pathways for recreationalists and commuters. I could go into why the distinction was made but...meh. 

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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Trails here could be paved paths in a town or city, or they could be dirt trails through the forest, along a river etc. Anywhere a horse, hiker or cross county skier could go on crown land I can go. Municipalities and cities can regulate what type bike can be used in their jurisdiction. Utah has approx 85,000 square miles with approx 3,000,000 people. We have approx 250,000 square miles with approx 1,100,000 people. We're not over regulated and don't have special interest groups (hikers and horseback riders) tying up land.


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## GregB406 (Dec 19, 2005)

There is a third type of ebike that doesn't fit into the two categories Mountie described. I have one. It is power on demand, but runs through the gearing system. I have one. People on regular unassisted bikes pass me all the time. Please don't be so cocksure in your opinions. Stated absolutes are often found to be false.


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