# Recovery



## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

This is not intended to be a beer vs. chocolate milk discussion.
We could talk about post-addiction type things but that would be a different recovery thread.

I find that following eating recovery guidelines (protein/carb within 30 minutes of exercise completion) plus the occasional Recoverite instead of or in addition to, really helps with the exercise hangover I used to get from some of my all day rides or ski days for that matter.

There's a different aspect to recovery that I'm trying to improve results on. Stiffness and muscle soreness in the mornings can be a real problem for me. I can stretch all I want the night before, yet I'm creaky as hell sometimes when I get up. It's nothing that a few minutes of flexiblity work doesn't mostly fix but I'm wondering at the root. I was talking to my trainer, and he suggested better hydration (not chocolate mile or beer) and taking a closer look at recovery eating. He said I probably couldn't blame it on age. Regarding the hydration my thought is something like, No I do not want to have to get up more to pee at night than I already do, but that might be the price to pay to not feel so creaky.

Short version, what all are you doing for better recovery?


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2017)

sorry to say it is age setting in. Yes hydration helps as does a solid post ride meal but i suspect your aware of this aspect already.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

formica said:


> This is not intended to be a beer vs. chocolate milk discussion.
> We could talk about post-addiction type things but that would be a different recovery thread.
> 
> I find that following eating recovery guidelines (protein/carb within 30 minutes of exercise completion) plus the occasional Recoverite instead of or in addition to, really helps with the exercise hangover I used to get from some of my all day rides or ski days for that matter.
> ...


It's not that you have not recovered. It's age. And it's natural.

My father-in-law (passed away in October at 91) was a physical therapist, weight lifter, and in incredible physical shape his entire life. "Talk of the town" type of physique by all of his friends, neighbors, and those who knew him. A melanoma got his lung (all those years out in the sun), and it was only his final 2 months that he had to suffer.

His best advice to my entire family in terms of being a role model example included him telling us that those final 4 decades involved - naturally - exactly what you are experiencing. The aches and pains of muscle stiffness and soreness in the morning that you are feeling will never go away. You simply keep on, keeping on realizing that is part of aging and get used to it. Embrace it, do your stretching and allow your body to warm up each morning. There's nothing you can take or do to prevent it. Only those who have aged and been through the process know.

Welcome to getting older.:thumbsup:


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

I transition from the bedroom to the kitchen, pour myself a cup of coffee, and move onto the hot tub for about 30 minutes every morning I'm home.
When I'm traveling and don't have this routine, I do feel stiffer and creakier, but I can't say there are not other factors involved, like plane or car travel.

Even if there are no physical benefits to the hot tub, it sure seems to have mental benefits as I get to ease into my day, think about my work (and play) day, enjoy the sunrise, moon fall and maybe see a few meteorites.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Yes to the hot tub. I don't do it all the time. We have one too. I wish I wasn't the first one up. It would be really nice to have the coffee ready so I could grab a cup on my way out instead of waiting for it. (No timer use, long story involving my spouse)


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Seems the 30 minute rule has since been revised for protein recovery. 

Anyway, taking in calories post ride depends on my duration and intensity of said ride. I don't want to consume unnecessary calories.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2017)

BruceBrown said:


> The aches and pains of muscle stiffness and soreness in the morning that you are feeling will never go away. You simply keep on, keeping on realizing that is part of aging and get used to it. Embrace it, do your stretching and allow your body to warm up each morning. There's nothing you can take or do to prevent it. Only those who have aged and been through the process know.
> 
> Welcome to getting older.:thumbsup:


amen.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Crankout said:


> Seems the 30 minute rule has since been revised for protein recovery.


Revised to what?


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## Jake21 (Nov 25, 2006)

I find that rolling my legs out after a ride has been the best thing for my recovery. Also rolling them out before a ride has helped keep my tendons feeling well. I really don't notice much as far as nutrition goes and when i consume it.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

*Old Fart In Training*

My List of Learned habbits:

Keep OJ and banana's In the house,
Eat lots of grapes ..
Bla Bla bla proper high protein low sodium PROPER Salt uptake diet bla bla bla~~~

I properly hydrate 24/7 and I start each ride day by tricking my body Into thinking It has more water than It can use,,,How ?

Out of bed and down goes 35-40 ounces of water within the first hour,, followed by 8 to 12 ounces each hour up to bike ride time, Up to leaving the trail head !
AND a large cup of coffee on the way there.
*WARNING *If you arrive at the trail head and DO NOT need to pee and/or your pee is not nearly clear you did It wrong, Go home or just ride with the little kids on the flats nice and easy..









Print this chart out, take It with you and CHECK IT while you pee !
Us Old Farts gotta get It right, we must ride smarter !
If my trail head bladder dump matches #3 I ride at 80% max for the whole ride....No More.. and yep #4 I go home and watch TV..
Then try again the next day.

Pasta within one hour of ride time.
IF you eat pasta and don't workout It turns to sugar and makes you fat.

Ride starts and I ease my power to 60% within the first half mile and hold It there to the start of the second mile, then the power goes up to 80% and I hold that for one mile...
Then and *only then* do I stop, get off the bike and stretch out everything,, 
*~~~~~Never EVER ever ever stretch cold muscles~~~~~*

I go ride my azz off and chase down younger faster riders when ever I can. Want to get faster ? Then GET DROPPED !

I ride my ride and drink, drink like it's an IV drip,, sip often at a rate of about 12 ounces per hour. One hour In I eat,,hate bonking..

Remember that 2 miles warm up at the beginning ?

It now becomes the 2 mile ride of death. I finish this ride out tank empty. If I can say a single word when I get back to the trail head I did not ride hard enough....
Pretend a wolf pack Is on your tail and they are going to murder you If they catch you...
This Is the ONLY time I ride at 110% of my abilities, for ALL other riding conditions and times I ride at NO more than 90% and In the summer mid day heat 85% MAX
This rule Is broken only for Interval training where I ride at 95-100%

At rides end while loading up the bike down goes a 20 oz gatorade followed by a long slow careful full body stretch down ending when I am cooled down all the way. Then right back to 8 to 12 ounces of water on and on all day stopping 3 hours before bed time, I to hate to pee more than once at night...
Within one hour after rides end I want a cup of rice In me and then I eat normally, sort of....

Remember the OJ and banana's,,Yum Yum

I don't creak or ache or have any problems.
58 and feel like 30..









Arrogant SOB ain't I


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Jake21 said:


> I find that rolling my legs out after a ride has been the best thing for my recovery. Also rolling them out before a ride has helped keep my tendons feeling well. I really don't notice much as far as nutrition goes and when i consume it.


Yeah Man when I discovered a roller It became one of my best friends


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

foam roller, lacross ball, tennis ball, styroforam roller, tiger tail, strap...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

formica said:


> foam roller, lacross ball, tennis ball, styroforam roller, tiger tail, strap...


Awesome strap?


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Awesome strap?


yea that's it.


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## Crankyone (Dec 8, 2014)

i really miss my hot tub!


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

All great info. 
Not to be the Devil's advocate, but if it's really getting persistent, get checked for arthritis, if you haven't been already. 
If it did turn out to be that, there are some pretty good treatments available for some types these days. 
I was getting the soreness and stiffness you are describing about 7 years ago (45ish) and was wondering at first what the devil? Why are my hands getting sore etc. 
I turned out to have a minor case of arthritis. I just limit alcohol, nuts etc and am pretty much good to go most of the time. 
Every few weeks I feel the need for some over the counter ibuprofen, but mostly I'm good just by limiting certain things in the diet.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

formica said:


> Revised to what?


I've read research suggesting a 24 hour window for protein (for muscle recovery).

Glycogen replenishment requires more of that 1-2 hour window.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Have you considered you might be over doing it? At our age just getting out and having fun should be a priority, and I agree with the other comments welcome to getting older. I get sore after a good ride or hike but nothing too bad my biggest problem is back/neck pain from all my crashes over the years  I hydrate with a beer after the activity and maybe some whiskey during if it's cold out, like I said having fun should be a priority.


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## tm3 (Dec 17, 2005)

Interesting and potentially helpful comments. I love the hot tub idea but it's not a workable option for me.

I plan on making hydration a focus and see if it has any effect on the constant, and worsening, aches and strains that have been increasing since age 40.

The Catch-22 with hydration are the problems that aging creates with the prostate. Those of you who don't know what I'm talking about probably will soon enough, unfortunately. ;-)


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Osco said:


> My List of Learned habbits:
> 
> Keep OJ and banana's In the house,
> Eat lots of grapes ..
> ...


Wow, what are you in training for?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Tickle said:


> Have you considered you might be over doing it? At our age just getting out and having fun should be a priority, and I agree with the other comments welcome to getting older.


Recovery with rest is the biggest need as we age.

Otherwise, there's no need to cut back on duration or intensity. As a matter of fact, for the sake of fitness, it's more important that we do these things.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Ok so a beer and a whopper then, if I ride hard then maybe 2 whoppers


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Tickle said:


> Ok so a beer and a whopper then, if I ride hard then maybe 2 whoppers


I absolutely love Whoppers; the 2 for 1 coupons are a killer.


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

As weird as it may sound I have found that hydrating throughout the day really does help but somehow I stumbled across the weird fact that a piece of chocolate a couple of hours before I hop on really sustains me during the ride. Or maybe it's just a great excuse to eat chocolate! LOL


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2017)

OldManBiker said:


> As weird as it may sound I have found that hydrating throughout the day really does help but somehow I stumbled across the weird fact that a piece of chocolate a couple of hours before I hop on really sustains me during the ride. Or maybe it's just a great excuse to eat chocolate! LOL


i use the same excuse.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Osco said:


> View attachment 1113871
> 
> 
> Print this chart out, take It with you and CHECK IT while you pee !


Do I need a calibrated printer to get the colours right? Is it best of someone else holds it for you? I wouldn't want to dribble my chart.

Ah, get it laminated, right? :0)


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So when I was in Japan, I read a funny story. A foreigner got a job as a teacher at a Japanese school. She happened to be on medication that turned her urine blue. One of the first days of school, they were having a health check for everyone. Everyone had to go in the restroom to fill the clear jar they were provided, and then the kids lined up out in the hall with their jars (yes, this is strange for a lot of us but Japanese are not so "modest" in their bodily functions). So the teacher steps out with her jar of blue and said she could hear the gasps and excited whispering run down the hallway. Foreigners pee blue!

My company had a similar health check, though we didn't have to parade around with our specimen. They handed me the jar and I couldn't resist acting like I had no clue what they wanted me to do with it. It was pretty funny watching the guy pantomime what I was supposed to do in front of everyone. I gave him a few "eh?" and he got more "detailed" in his motions. I finally said "ah!" and took the jar.


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## tm3 (Dec 17, 2005)

chazpat said:


> I finally said "ah!" and took the jar.


One of the locals from deep in the hills here in NC went to the new clinic for a physical exam. When the MD said it was time for his urine test, he said, "My what?" MD:"Urine test." Patient: "What'd you say?" MD, exasperated: "See that cup over there? I want you to piss into it!"

"From here?"


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Old Fart In training,, I am In training For many reasons.
Example: Arthritis Is a fancy word for an Inflamed joint. I have it and do not need drugs to help with the pain. I have a Mountain bike and I ride It like I stole it. My Liver thanks me for this.
Diet, Hydration, Flexibility and Good Blood flow does far more than pain killers or swelling reducers,, IF you start before you destroy the affected joint.
Many things will make my wrists and hands hurt and It accumulates as days pass. A good mountain bike ride removes all the pain and any swelling, this effect can last three or four days, some times five or six.

The single best thing to do with arthritis after proper hydration is to exercise the effected joints, but not over do it.

Remember the old saying, 'Use It or Loose It" ?
The day I succumb to this and start watching TV and using one of those hand exercisers or squeezing a soft ball letting that become my workout. I will loose the grip and hand strength needed to ride.

I have a strong heart and I get off on the endorphin buzz~~~~

Read this below:

"Enter endorphins: your own private narcotic. Endorphins are neurotransmitters, chemicals that pass along signals from one neuron to the next. Neurotransmitters play a key role in the function of the central nervous system and can either prompt or suppress the further signaling of nearby neurons.

Endorphins are produced as a response to certain stimuli, especially stress, fear or pain. They originate in various parts of your body -- the pituitary gland, your spinal cord and throughout other parts of your brain and nervous system -- and interact mainly with receptors in cells found in regions of the brain responsible for blocking pain and controlling emotion.

Until recently, much of what we've learned about endorphins has been gained from monitoring endorphins in the human bloodstream and in rats' brains. It wasn't possible to measure endorphin levels in the human brain without harming the subject, so the role of endorphins in the "runner's high" and other periods of euphoria or mood change were still hotly debated. However, new imaging methods allow researchers to study the ebb and flow of endorphins as they interact with human brain cells, verifying their role in the rush that exercise -- and other triggers -- sometimes prompts.

There are at least 20 different kinds of endorphins, and one kind, beta-endorphins, are stronger than morphine and have been shown to play a part in everything from alcoholism to diabetes to aging of the brain [source: Dalayeun]."

In many cases help comes not from a doctor or pills but from simply remembering to stay active..

Doctors practice medicine and It's up to me to make sure they practice on other people as long as possible


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Every single person I ever met that started taking pills for pain or swelling or blood pressure or cholesterol ended up worse off over time and needed more pills or larger doses.
I was on two for BP and about to start #3 for cholesterol
I am on NOTHING now.
My brother was taking 7 medications when he turned 68 and was In terrible shape.
He Is 70 now and taking only one thing, a blood thinner.
He looks better than ever and says he feels wonderful....


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm a huge proponent of supplements. I've been using them with varying degrees of results for about 25 years. I've found one thing that consistently speeds recovery and has a very noticeable effect on post day/s soreness are vasodilators like L-arginine. Not only does L-arginine help usher in oxygen and nutrients and in kind speed the removal of toxins but it also raises human growth hormone production and has positive stabilization effect on igf factors.



I used some citrulline malate this summer in an effort to help boost stamina on big all day efforts and felt this made a BIG difference after about hour 5 in or so. You get the vasodilation with the added kick of buffering lactic acid and clearing amonia. My pee seemed to confirm the latter. A good multimineral and foods like lemons and limes can really help with the lactic acid.

Of coarse conditioning is a factor. The bigger and more mitochondria the better. Acytl L-carnitine can help here. There's also some promising new studies on NAD extendeding the life span of mitochondria. Will be trying some soon.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> I'm a huge proponent of supplements. I've been using them with varying degrees of results for about 25 years. I've found one thing that consistently speeds recovery and has a very noticeable effect on post day/s soreness are vasodilators like L-arginine. Not only does L-arginine help usher in oxygen and nutrients and in kind speed the removal of toxins but it also raises human growth hormone production and has positive stabilization effect on igf factors.
> 
> I used some citrulline malate this summer in an effort to help boost stamina on big all day efforts and felt this made a BIG difference after about hour 5 in or so. You get the vasodilation with the added kick of buffering lactic acid and clearing amonia. My pee seemed to confirm the latter. A good multimineral and foods like lemons and limes can really help with the lactic acid.
> 
> Of coarse conditioning is a factor. The bigger and more mitochondria the better. Acytl L-carnitine can help here. There's also some promising new studies on NAD extendeding the life span of mitochondria. Will be trying some soon.


See ! right there, your helping me to look farther Into this aging process and how I can help prolong my current physical state and even Improve it.

Thanks.

Got any **** links to books ~n~ such on this type of Info ?

Knowledge Is Power


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Osco said:


> See ! right there, your helping me to look farther Into this aging process and how I can help prolong my current physical state and even Improve it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ...


A book I always recommend to friends trying to cut their teeth on supplementation is "The Real Vitamin and Mineral Book" by Sheri Liebernan. I try to read at least 6-7 studies a day. I will religiously read everything published by Nature. I enjoy health oriented podcasts. A radio show/podcast I've been listening to for a long time is Gary Null. He is an ego maniac, but is brilliant, always on the cutting edge and has accomplished some truely remarkable things.


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## Romaxy (Jul 5, 2016)

My wife doesn't ride much but she is a runner. We are both 50. The single best thing that helps us both with stiff joints is a good deep tissue massage. It is a little pricey at $100 per hour but well worth it. When we first started going, we went every other week for about 3 months then cut back to about once a month sometimes with one in there if she has a long run (over 15 mile) or if I have a long ride (over 30 miles) and we feel the need to loosen up. Best money we have spent. We make sure we stay hydrated and eat well also.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

$100 per hour,,, 

How about Massage school for one of you, then that one teaches the other then you two massage each other for free !

I'd consider that


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

$50-80/ hr around here.

Supplements. That could be a whole separate discussion.


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## Romaxy (Jul 5, 2016)

Osco said:


> $100 per hour,,,
> 
> How about Massage school for one of you, then that one teaches the other then you two massage each other for free !
> 
> I'd consider that


Correction. I just asked my wife and it is $100 for a 90 minute session. Neither one of us would have the time or desire to go to massage school plus I think the school is expensive, plus massage table, towel warmer, etc. Before long it would be like having another business and we don't want that. We aren't wealthy but in our opinion it is money well spent. I am going to elaborate a bit.. I am a busted up old motocrosser. Raced until 2002. My son raced and when he moved up to 80cc bikes, I quit and focused on his racing. From then until 2012 I totally let myself go. Started road biking then transferred over to MTB last year. I felt like I was trapped in the body of an old man. Tried all sorts of supplements, I'm not saying they don't help but I just couldn't get to the point of feeling well and strong. After months of my Mrs urging me to get massage I finally went. It was the best thing for me at that point in my road to getting back in shape. I feel better than I did when I was 40. I think the main thing is to find what works best for you and you will be happy. I will say staying in shape over 50 ain't cheap! ?


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Osco said:


> Every single person I ever met that started taking pills for pain or swelling or blood pressure or cholesterol ended up worse off over time and needed more pills or larger doses.
> I was on two for BP and about to start #3 for cholesterol
> I am on NOTHING now.
> My brother was taking 7 medications when he turned 68 and was In terrible shape.
> ...


I think at our age we need to be careful pushing our limits tho like doing high intensity stuff intervals and such. Usually every year I hear about a roadie in their 50's-60's drop dead during a training ride here locally, super fit types like yourself. I'm 53 been riding for 30 years and I'm not on any medication thankfully, but do like to drink and not in great shape. I just want to ride and have fun and hike with the wife.

I don't have any great recovery advice but after reading formica's OP it came to mind that maybe she's sore from over doing it. I know in the past when I trained harder I would get excessive soreness and the only cure was to take a break.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Vitamin E is a very effective blood thinner with countless health benefits. Natural vitamin e with mixed tocopheryls for the win.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Not even close to overdoing, I don't think. I realize that comparing to others only has so much value but even so, compared to other active, healthy, strong 50-something females, I would put myself squarely in upper middle, not more than that.


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

Whalenard, are there any particular brand names of the L-Arginine and citrulline malate that you are currently taking? And dosage sizes, i.e. mg per day? I'm seriously going to purchase some of these today but would prefer a strong and tried brand that works instead of peeing in the wind hoping I get a good one.

Thanks for the info!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

For vitamins & things like L-arginine I have found the brand NOW to be the best value of quality to cost. The citrulline malate I used was by Primaforce and it was definitely the real McCoy.

Supplements can be very expensive in a store front vs online. The online retailer I've used of as late is 
AllStarHealth.com - Discount Vitamins | Nutritional Supplements | Bodybuilding Supplements
and have been very happy with them.

I prefer capsules to pills, no binders, fillers, etc. For L-arginine 3 grams is a very effective dose (usually 6 capsules) but I feel results starting at 1.5 grams. You can get an incredible pump with arginine so you may want to experiment here. Products like citrulline malate come with a scooper/server. I typically will use a heaping scoop vs a level one. Best luck!


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

I am seeing that L-arginine on that site comes in doses of 500mg, 750mg, and 1000mg. You mentioned above 3 grams? As you can see I'm not a huge vitamin user other than Fish oil so forgive the stupid question. lol.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

While any would work I find iit easier to fine tune my dose at the 500mg level. Keep in mind both arginine and citrulline malate are potent vasodilators. I typically use arginine for the gym and used the citrulline malate for big backcountry type days.


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

I just purchased a bottle of 500mg (250 cap.) for $11.00 on Amazon Prime. Saved over $6 in shipping! $6 that can go towards my next bike accessory! I can't wait to try these out to see what kind of boost and/or recovery they will have on this 53yr old body. Thanks for the info Whalenard. Much appreciated.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't know why it works for me but I drink a couple large glasses of iced tea after most rides. About to start glass 2 of 2 shortly, since I got back from a ride not long ago. If I don't, I run the risk of middle of the night headaches which leads to poor sleep and general lack of energy. A good night sleep helps in many ways.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Tickle said:


> I think at our age we need to be careful pushing our limits tho like doing high intensity stuff intervals and such. Usually every year I hear about a roadie in their 50's-60's drop dead during a training ride here locally, super fit types like yourself. I'm 53 been riding for 30 years and I'm not on any medication thankfully, but do like to drink and not in great shape. I just want to ride and have fun and hike with the wife.


Barring any medical issue, there is absolutely no reason to decrease intensity and volume as you age. All the more reason to amp it up, quite honestly. Those folks would drop dead regardless of the workouts.

If you are so inclined, I urge you to check out the book Fast After Fifty. The notion that we should ease up after 50 is old school thinking and faulty.

Just thought I'd share.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

formica said:


> Revised to what?


My nutrition guy recommended getting protein and some carbs immediately post exercise, like within 5 to 15 minutes, when the body is most ready to soak it up.

If there are changes to this, I'd be interested to know.


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## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

The info about hydration & stiffness is very interesting. It's been on my mind lately as sitting in one position longer than 10 minutes causes me to stiffen up in the most annoying way. 
The problem is I work at home and when I do hydrate well - my bladder and I go to war.

My bladder knows that the bathroom is just at the top of the stairs. I sip some water, she gets a little full and it's... HAHAHA! YOU GOTTA GO PEE!!! NOW!
I counter attack with kegels and biofeedback techniques. 
She tries to flank with GO NOW! You're NOT going to make it!!

I am winning more battles, but the war goes on.....


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

June Bug said:


> My nutrition guy recommended getting protein and some carbs immediately post exercise, like within 5 to 15 minutes, when the body is most ready to soak it up.
> 
> If there are changes to this, I'd be interested to know.


Post ride beer!

crankout- not saying you can't train or be fit after 50 but common sense dictates we age and slow down I know I have in the last 10 years, no way even if I train my azz off I would be able to ride like I did in my 20's or 30's. This conversation reminds me of the testosterone replacement drugs, it's not your fault it's you body's fault fix it


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

oldbroad said:


> The info about hydration & stiffness is very interesting. It's been on my mind lately as sitting in one position longer than 10 minutes causes me to stiffen up in the most annoying way.
> The problem is I work at home and when I do hydrate well - my bladder and I go to war.
> 
> My bladder knows that the bathroom is just at the top of the stairs. I sip some water, she gets a little full and it's... HAHAHA! YOU GOTTA GO PEE!!! NOW!
> ...


How to balance hydration and not getting up all night to pee.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Your body needs certain things to fix itself, so I am a firm believer in supplements along with vitamins to help it along it's way.

The thing that sucks about some supplements is that it can take weeks for the results to become apparent. I find this true with Glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM. If I stop taking it for a few months, my joints get achy. After taking it again for a month, they fell good again.

Oddly enough, I have heart rhythm issues that are mineral related. If I stop my vitamins and mineral supplement for 3 days or so, I start getting PVCs like crazy.


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## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

formica said:


> How to balance hydration and not getting up all night to pee.


Oddly enough, night time peeing is not a problem. I don't drink much after 8pm and even if I do, I don't always have to get up. It's the same when I'm not at home - my bladder doesn't try to make me go every hour. It's only when my home bathroom is right there!


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

We all need to listen to our own bodies, and of course it's reasonable to try different (reasonable) things for recovery until we find a routine that works for each of us. I find it odd to see that people often condemn prescription drugs, which have been through controlled clinical trials, yet are more than willing to experiment on themselves with supplements, which are also drugs, and in many cases have not been the subject of good clinical trials. My own rules of thumb:

1. Don't take any drugs (or excessive supplements) unless you really need them.
2. You "need" a drug or supplement if proper behaviors don't correct the problem.
3. Proper behavior means eat reasonably, don't overeat, exercise properly and regularly, sleep enough, hydrate well, address stress.
4. If these behaviors don't fix the problem, and a qualified doctor says that you need a particular drug, then try the drug, after making a reasonable cost-benefit analysis.

For most people without an underlying genetic predisposition to disease, who haven't already practiced a lifetime of bad behavior, these rules should keep you reasonably healthy, to a reasonably old age. Diabetes, premature heart disease, many cancers, and many other diseases will not be a problem for most people until they are truly elderly.

Your biochemistry is a delicate balance that is the result of literally billions of years of evolution. Don't muck it up with un-needed drugs or extreme amounts of nutritional supplements. Eat a variety of normal human foods in moderation, hydrate with mineral replacement when you sweat a lot, and don't just sit around after you ride hard. If I follow these simple principles (and take a nap), I can feel pretty good even after a long, hard ride. If I violate them, even after only a moderate effort, I can get headaches and lots of soreness.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Vitamin C alone has over 35,000 double blind placebo peer reviewed published studies. That's more than any 100 drugs combined. Main streams rhetoric on supplementation is based more in propaganda than reality.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Vitamin C and most of the other vitamins have been well-studied. Yet still there are surprises--for example, the correlation of high-dose anti-oxidants (vitamin E and Vitamin A) with increased cancer risk took many by surprise. Everyone knows that Iron is an essential mineral, yet fatal iron poisoning was common in children until steps were taken to reduce the likelihood of overdosing on iron-containing supplements.

Let me put it another way: it is highly unlikely that mega-dosing on any one compound or mineral, or any combination of compounds and minerals, is "the answer" to health and/or longevity. Go ahead and seek the elixir of life if that's your thing, but I believe you're more likely to poison yourself than you are to improve your performance or health. Most of the "results" you hear about are anecdotal and are likely due to a placebo effect. This is not to say that nutrition does not matter--it does--but fixating on particular supplements is not the same as eating a nutritious diet.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

1) Eat well of a healthy, plant-based diet, 2) drink lots of water, 3) take supplements very carefully, you should not need them if you do #1 well.4) Listen to your body. 
As long as you are doing these, and you don't have some other major health issue, you have all you need to keep at it for a long time. Yes we feel aches and pains sometimes, but they soon go away. I'm never gonna be a champion of the world, but I'll be the Champion of my hill


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

oldbroad said:


> Oddly enough, night time peeing is not a problem. I don't drink much after 8pm and even if I do, I don't always have to get up. It's the same when I'm not at home - my bladder doesn't try to make me go every hour. It's only when my home bathroom is right there!


You and others may find some helpful information in this Times article about overactive bladders (common in women and men)

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/well/live/when-bathroom-runs-rule-the-day-and-night.html


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

paramount3 said:


> Vitamin C and most of the other vitamins have been well-studied. Yet still there are surprises--for example, the correlation of high-dose anti-oxidants (vitamin E and Vitamin A) with increased cancer risk took many by surprise. Everyone knows that Iron is an essential mineral, yet fatal iron poisoning was common in children until steps were taken to reduce the likelihood of overdosing on iron-containing supplements.
> 
> Let me put it another way: it is highly unlikely that mega-dosing on any one compound or mineral, or any combination of compounds and minerals, is "the answer" to health and/or longevity. Go ahead and seek the elixir of life if that's your thing, but I believe you're more likely to poison yourself than you are to improve your performance or health. Most of the "results" you hear about are anecdotal and are likely due to a placebo effect. This is not to say that nutrition does not matter--it does--but fixating on particular supplements is not the same as eating a nutritious diet.


Consumer Reports had a nice write-up a few months ago regarding the vitamin/supplement business. While there are some that have merit, it seems the majority are useless if not downright unsafe. There's no FDA regulation of them. Most are modern-day snake oils.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

There has never been a study, to my knowledge, that showed a correlation between supplementing with vitamin A,E,or beta carotene and an increased risk of cancer. I think what you're trying to refer to is a Finnish study that showed a 4.8% proliferation of lung cancer in smokers published in 1993 (codex alimentarious era). The problem, and there are many, with the study is that it has never been duplicated. Infact many subsequent studies have contradictory results. The closest results duplicated to that study have been 0.8% lung cancer proliferation which of course is not statically significant, not to mention they threw everthing possible at the experiment group in said study.

Like vitamin C vitamin E is very well studied with some 15k double blind placebo peer reviewed studies. Conclusion, taking natural vitamin E with mixed tocopheryls is a very good ideah.

I think allowing consumer reports, magazine articles, web article's etc to influence our decisions is not something worth propagating on a public forum. I'll choose the scientific literature to help inform my desciscion making.

As athletes, mountain bikers, living an active lifestyle etc we create a lot of extra oxidative stress just by engaging in the activities we love. It is patently true we can mitigate oxidative damage and soak up free radicals by adding supplements to our diets.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> Conclusion, taking natural vitamin E with mixed tocopheryls is a very good ideah.


Natural = real food; pills etc. aren't real food.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Natural= derived from food sources, occering as it would in nature, in ratios that occer in food vs manmade d-alpha-tocopherol


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> There has never been a study, to my knowledge, that showed a correlation between supplementing with vitamin A,E,or beta carotene and an increased risk of cancer. I think what you're trying to refer to is a Finnish study that showed a 4.8% proliferation of lung cancer in smokers published in 1993 (codex alimentarious era). The problem, and there are many, with the study is that it has never been duplicated. Infact many subsequent studies have contradictory results. The closest results duplicated to that study have been 0.8% lung cancer proliferation which of course is not statically significant, not to mention they threw everthing possible at the experiment group in said study.
> 
> Like vitamin C vitamin E is very well studied with some 15k double blind placebo peer reviewed studies. Conclusion, taking natural vitamin E with mixed tocopheryls is a very good ideah.
> 
> ...


We know that superoxide and H2O2 cause oxidative damage, and thus we assume that antioxidants should counter this, but the reality is not that simple. It is now understood that ROS are part of various normal signalling pathways, and are important for phagocytotic functions. Possibly for these reasons, or for other, perhaps unknown reasons, anti-oxidant supplementation appears to be harmful overall. Here's a meta-analysis of 78 trials, 56 of which are considered likely to have low bias:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22419320

Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012 Mar 14;(3):CD007176. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD007176.pub2.
Antioxidant supplements for prevention of mortality in healthy participants and patients with various diseases.

AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:
We found no evidence to support antioxidant supplements for primary or secondary prevention. Beta-carotene and vitamin E seem to increase mortality, and so may higher doses of vitamin A. Antioxidant supplements need to be considered as medicinal products and should undergo sufficient evaluation before marketing.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> There has never been a study, to my knowledge, that showed a correlation between supplementing with vitamin A,E,or beta carotene and an increased risk of cancer. I think what you're trying to refer to is a Finnish study that showed a 4.8% proliferation of lung cancer in smokers published in 1993 (codex alimentarious era). The problem, and there are many, with the study is that it has never been duplicated. Infact many subsequent studies have contradictory results. The closest results duplicated to that study have been 0.8% lung cancer proliferation which of course is not statically significant, not to mention they threw everthing possible at the experiment group in said study.
> 
> Like vitamin C vitamin E is very well studied with some 15k double blind placebo peer reviewed studies. Conclusion, taking natural vitamin E with mixed tocopheryls is a very good ideah.
> 
> ...


By the way, in this age of disinformation, I have found Consumer Reports to be one of the most reliable sources of information for the general public.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Post ride...post ride...?
Pre ride is what I've done since high school for intensive 4-6 hour or so efforts.
Complex carb/protein(precooked rice/beans/peas/quinoa/others) before with hydration before and during and the damage you're trying to repair doesn't show up as soreness the next morning. You get tired from the output. But you don't need a hot tub. I sleep and you're rested and can go out again as long as you repeat the pre ride proper fueling. Precooked stuff takes seconds to micro. Add some fat from olive oil and/or butter maybe a little peanut butter and you're off.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> Natural= derived from food sources, occering as it would in nature, in ratios that occer in food vs manmade d-alpha-tocopherol


What is the meaning of 'natural' on the label of food?

From a food science perspective, it is difficult to define a food product that is 'natural' because the food has probably been processed and is no longer the product of the earth. That said, FDA has not developed a definition for use of the term natural or its derivatives. However, the agency has not objected to the use of the term if the food does not contain added color, artificial flavors, or synthetic substances. - FDA website

Hey, if it works for you, great. I'm not going to tell bakerjw he's wrong, for him and his experience, what he's doing works. But everything I've seen says the healthiest thing to do is eat the right foods, you can't make up for not doing that with supplements. Some supplements may have some benefit but for the most part, they don't.

I just find it odd when someone is all negative about medicine but call it "supplement" and suddenly it's wonderful. Believe me, the supplement manufacturers, sellers, stores, etc. number one focus is making money, just like the drug companies.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> L
> I think allowing consumer reports, magazine articles, web article's etc to influence our decisions is not something worth propagating on a public forum. I'll choose the scientific literature to help inform my desciscion making.


Consumer Reports is scientific, and has no influence from outside businesses. It's indeed worth sharing on a public forum.

For that matter, whose to say what should and shouldn't be shared out here? Have you seen the splatterings on Facebook from those anti-vaccine whacknuts?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^That study states "the supplement antioxidant group had no significant effect on mortality" in the random effects model. The only model of value in a meta analysis type study. This is 1 study of three authors vs 100k + studies to the contrary.

The problem with extrapolating data acrross the breath of many studies in meta analysis is bias. Dosage, quality/type, lifestyle etc all can not be controlled for and therefore drawing any conclusion is really pointless. This study is no different as the mean age was 63, some 80k participant already had diagnosed diseases and mean trial run was 3 years. That alone can account for any statistical significance.

Sounding like the dead horse here but again there are some 35k random double blind placebo peer reviewed published studies on vit C alone. One would have to suspend any faith in the scientific method to discount that. It is literally the most studied compound in human history.

The relationship of biofeedback, antioxidants and cellular damage is well understood and has been at least since Linus Pauling.

I think it's unfortunate we put our faith in corrupt organizations like the FDA. Let us not forget over 100k Americans die from FDA spproved drugs a year and prescription drugs are now the second leading cause of death in America. You want a case study in conflict of intetest read up on Viox which killed 1 million people. The FDA should be completely discredited from the Viox scandal alone. 

Consumer reports not biased? Listen the "general public" is the most obese, most depressed, most medicated, most stressed, most jailed populace in history. Perhaps consumer reports can try harder.

Apologies if this seems antagonistic...certainly not my intention. Information is important and we should really let facts dictate information. I'd also say there is nothing natural about the industrial raised food we eat, our relationship to it, or the lives we lead. We are exposed to ever more chemicals and environmental stressors. Supplements can absolutely help here and the science is there to back that up.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm sticking to colloidal minerals, a thank you very much.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I use them myself.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

After some reading and experimenting, I'm now pro both pre and post-ride supplementation(lots of info available on drinks and such for weightlifters), having largely ignored pre-workout nutrition beyond taking in some carbs in the past. Now I add a scoop of protein mixed in water, arginine, etc. I'm a supplement whore, and doing so many things at once while in "workout mode" that it's hard to point to any single thing, but my recovery has indeed been very fast lately.
You do have a larger window than 1 hour, but immediately after is good(best?). Whey alone, due to a disproportionate insulin response, is supposedly enough to spike it and drive glycogen into depleted cells, but if you want a post-ride superdrink, a double portion of protein powder(ON's Mocha Cappucino instead of the usual Delicious Strawberry for me! ) and some ice cubes blended up with an Ensure Plus(maltodextrin guarantees the insulin response) leaves me feeling like I could do it all again-right now.
Since I'm back on a diet low enough in carbs/calories to drop half a pound per day, I only allow myself that after unusually intense workouts, and normally mix my post-ride protein with water, too.

Also been trying a stack recommended in Jim Stoppani's "Shortcut to Shred" program that pertains to some of the previous comments. 
Acetyl L-Carnitine, Green Tea Extract, Yohimbe and caffeine.
Again, hard to quantify the effects, as I've just recently gotten almost total relief from 13+ years of stiffness and chronic back issues(inversion table=Godsend, and gave me major relief the first time I tried one), so feel like a million bucks compared to normal.
Regardless, it seems to curb my appetite, and I feel energized in spite of my weekly caloric intake barely matching my output from exercise alone.
I like this guy's take on "cardio-acceleration"(which I sort of do, anyway), and have felt the benefits of some of his recs, so will post some links to his articles.
On the stack(not wholly original-quotes research I found published elsewhere, IIRC):
Stack It, Scorch It: How To Build The Perfect Fat Burner

On the L-Carnitine:
Your Expert Guide To L-Carnitine

On post-workout carbs:
The Benefits Of Post-Workout Carbohydrates

btw, I'm a few months shy of 46, but probably take the occasional look at this forum simply because I've FELT 50+ for well over a decade. Can't help but throw in a plug for the inversion table as worth investigating for anyone who doesn't have health issues that would keep them from using one. Due to limiting my activities and range of motion to avoid crippling pain and spasms for so many years, I've had to deal with a lot of muscular imbalances, unexpected soreness in some weird places, and basically starting over in some respects, but the last few months have been totally lifechanging. I bought the top of the line Teeter model, and it has already paid for itself several times over in chiropractor and massage therapist visits that I no longer need.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

Good suggestions. 

Thanks from a fellow late 50'er.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

OwenM said:


> After some reading and experimenting, I'm now pro both pre and post-ride supplementation(lots of info available on drinks and such for weightlifters), having largely ignored pre-workout nutrition beyond taking in some carbs in the past. Now I add a scoop of protein mixed in water, arginine, etc. I'm a supplement whore, and doing so many things at once while in "workout mode" that it's hard to point to any single thing, but my recovery has indeed been very fast lately.
> You do have a larger window than 1 hour, but immediately after is good(best?). Whey alone, due to a disproportionate insulin response, is supposedly enough to spike it and drive glycogen into depleted cells, but if you want a post-ride superdrink, a double portion of protein powder(ON's Mocha Cappucino instead of the usual Delicious Strawberry for me! ) and some ice cubes blended up with an Ensure Plus(maltodextrin guarantees the insulin response) leaves me feeling like I could do it all again-right now.
> Since I'm back on a diet low enough in carbs/calories to drop half a pound per day, I only allow myself that after unusually intense workouts, and normally mix my post-ride protein with water, too.
> 
> ...


It would take literally a lifetime of clinical trials to sort out the effects of what you are taking/doing. Reading between the lines, I think you have been in pain and unable to work out effectively for 13 years, but the inversion table had an instant positive effect, allowing you to work out. My guess is that if you ditched the extreme nutritional supplements and just followed a reasonable pre/post-workout diet, with proper hydration/mineral replenishment, you would feel at least as good. Maybe better. Yohimbine is a potentially dangerous drug--look it up.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

No need to read between the lines. I'm pretty straightforward. 
My condition before forced regular activity, in spite of the pain, to keep from getting crippled up. Now I can actually relax and be lazy all I want. Very nice, but I quickly put on 12lbs instead of losing 10 as intended, and a low cal diet certainly hasn't imbued me with newfound vigor.
Everything is working together exactly as I'd hoped and planned, though. I don't put much faith in online calculators that go by very limited information like height/weight/sex/age, but the weight loss really is falling fairly close to the numbers based on my guesstimated basal metabolic rate and output during exercise plus bonus points for the supplements and increased metabolism post-exercise(consistently 400cal/day ahead of where I should be on paper). Interesting stuff, since I'd never looked at BMR or stuck with a diet where I counted or prioritized calories. It's made the dieting kind of fun. Well, maybe "engagng" is a better term
As of this weekend, I'd been good for 36 of 38 days, and was down 18lbs-dead on .5lb/day. 

Shoot, I'll have lost the weight of my HT in a couple more weeks. Still thinking about switching to titanium stem bolts, though. Those grams add up, and my steel ones do get a little rusty...


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## mach-6 (Jan 24, 2017)

I've been looking for healthy alternatives to all the sugary drinks out there for rehydration post race and have settled on Oral IV: https://www.oraliv.com

For someone with crazy horrible lactic acid dumps post race, this product was a miracle. Hopefully this helps someone else that experience the same thing I do.

- Jerry


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Hi Jerry,

The claims behind Oral IV appear to be total, utter ********. Structured water--that's crap. Micronutrients? Sure, you need some, and you get them from your food. You don't need a microdose of selenium immediately after a hard ride to recover.

For proper recovery post-race, try eating some fruit (K, fluids), a handful of salted nuts (Mg, Na), some salted potato chips (e.g. Trader Joe's, fried in mono-unsaturated oils; Na, K) and a chicken sandwich on whole wheat bread, washed down with a lot of water.

For mineral replacement during rides, try something simple and cheap, like Saltstick capsules (Amazon) for replenishment of the major electrolytes Na, K, Ca, Mg with no added carbs.

My qualifications? All you really need is a sensitive ******** detector, and the ability to use Google. But I do have a PhD in chemistry, and have worked in the water treatment industry, as well as the pharmaceutical industry for 20 years.

This site did a pretty good assessment of Oral IV (which I believe might have changed its specific bogus marketing claims in the interim, but the idea is the same):

Special Circumstances: Warrior Wound Care Oral I.V.: Tactical Snake Oil - Or why you should not believe everything you read on the internet.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Jerry just joined and has one post, wait a minute, I didn't think you were able to post external links with your first post. Anyway, I don't think our health is his goal here.


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## paramount3 (Jul 13, 2014)

Yeah, just don't want him to get a toehold here.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Jerry just joined and has one post, wait a minute, I didn't think you were able to post external links with your first post. Anyway, I don't think our health is his goal here.


Jerry was a race car driver...


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I have hung up my bike for the winter. I'm now on day 41 of skiing, predominantly powder, as it's a great year, and all of it on telemark gear which is hard on my body. I find a 50/50 combo of Jim Beam Devil's cut Bourbon / Vya Sweet vermouth and a few hits of Beehive Orange bitters in the evening with 4 advil up to 3 times a day does the trick. I'm 64 and both my kidneys still work! Also Bloody Maries. (edit: I DO hydrate with water before hitting the alcohol!) I think the potassium in the tomato juice is really good for me. I keep a 2 pound bag of Guittard brand milk chocolate chips in the freezer for energy. They're amazing.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

MSUAlum, I need to hook you up with my Mr. He's been on tele gear since 1976 and has about 20 days in so far this year.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

formica said:


> MSUAlum, I need to hook you up with my Mr. He's been on tele gear since 1976 and has about 20 days in so far this year.


Is he in Park City, Utah?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

nope, we are in Eastern WA. He's gone NTN all the way though. I just like the concept of old fart tele skiers. Most of our friends have gone AT.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

formica said:


> nope, we are in Eastern WA. He's gone NTN all the way though. I just like the concept of old fart tele skiers. Most of our friends have gone AT.


Yup I went to AT just way easier on my knees....boot supports the knee alignment better and protects what ever menaces I have left

Just got in day 8 1050m vert and 13.5 km

Saturday was knee deep Alberta champagne powder, actually caught some bottomless in some snow pockets.


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## sagasanpinto (2 mo ago)

This article discusses various body types and the reasons why some people mass gainer struggle to put on quality muscle mass. This is a question that people who want to build muscle frequently ask.


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