# Is the Soft tail Dead in 2016?



## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

It seemed like back in 2008-2009, there were numerous custom builders doing soft tail designs, most incorporating the then popular 29er wheels into the mix. 

Since then we've had the emergency of short chainstay, longer travel AM 29er hardtails, long travel full suspension 29ers, and finally the "Plus Revolution". 

With bikepacking gaining in popularity, many are finding it hard to find a bike that works on fast and rough terrain, but still offers the simplicity of hardtail. 

Plus tires help to make the ride a bit more comfortable, but they lack dampening. 

Is there any way to get full-suspension dampening without linkage? Are we better to just stick to comfort built steel and titanium?


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

I plan on offering soft tails in the near future. My purpose is dealing with inconsistent pavement, the joke here is "there are three seasons in MN: winter, winter, winter and road construction" which is an obvious embellishment, but we do get crazy potholes. I was looking at the costs of bonding carbon lugs together, while thinking about warranty work, travel concerns, the neuropathy in my right arm, my spine is a touch goofy looking under Xray... all this stuff seemed to be point toward _DUDE_, I should make some soft tails.

So I will. I don't have all the answers yet. But yeah sign me up.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The time of the soft tail has basically come and gone. Salsa stopped making the last available shock quite a few (5?) years ago. Cane Creek hasn't made one in at least a decade. Even if you wanted to build one, you'd be stuck with a decade-old, probably heavily used shock. 

If you just want a little comfort, a suspension seatpost will do that. Or just a saddle with more padding, or bigger/lower pressure tires... If you want suspension, get a bike with actual suspension. 

-Walt


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Yeah, I think the soft tail was a patch for crappy suspension designs and poorly damped shocks.

Only ones I know of still being made are the Moots YBB bikes.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I was hoping you'd chime in, Walt. 

Did any of the previous variants of Softtail actually having dampening similar to suspension? Or is essentially the same thing begin accomplished in higher volume tires?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PHeller said:


> I was hoping you'd chime in, Walt.
> 
> Did any of the previous variants of Softtail actually having dampening similar to suspension? Or is essentially the same thing begin accomplished in higher volume tires?


I remember some of the Trek soft tails circa early 2000's having a bona fide air shock. I seem to recall them being Rockshox but may be wrong. They may have had rebound damping, but I can't recall.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

BMC has one. Its got elastomers that you can switch out. The TE01.

On the pricey side though.
Mountain - BMC Switzerland


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

Walt I agree that suspension seatposts are functional and cost effective, but I don't like how it ties me into the features of the given suspension seatpost in use. I'd rather retain either the Race Face independent angle clamp feature, or function of a dropper post - on pavement as a city bike. Navigating zones that are built exclusively for cars can be proper awkward / full body exercise.

Greedy for functions? Sure. Greedy. I wonder if Risse could be talked into making something.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

PHeller said:


> I was hoping you'd chime in, Walt.
> 
> Did any of the previous variants of Softtail actually having dampening similar to suspension? Or is essentially the same thing begin accomplished in higher volume tires?


The Salsa Relish I *think* had adjustable rebound. Not sure on the CC AD-5. The Moots was/is just an elastomer in a tube.

In any case, none of them really exist anymore.

-Walt


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Are we just better to look at lightweight, short travel, smart-package full suspension bikes?

I guess I'm looking at bikepackers (this topic came up), who see pivots and air shocks as spot lacking reliability on long distance rides. 

I suppose there is difference between wanting a comfy soft traditional hardtail with smart area of flex built with normal tubing, versus wanting something that provides the advantages of full suspension. 

The soft-tail of the past doesn't seem like the best idea, and it sounds like in even if you use flexible stays, you'll still have some pivots and a normal shock in order to get the best performance, and at that point you might as well go traditional full-suspension.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Modern suspension bikes that aren't totally weight weenie weirdness very seldom have problems with bearings/pivots or air shocks. I doubt you'd save yourself any meaningful amount of trouble going to a soft tail (which used to blow shocks all the time as I recall), and you'd sacrifice most of the function of the suspension. 

-Walt


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## iRider (Nov 15, 2005)

Walt said:


> The Salsa Relish I *think* had adjustable rebound. Not sure on the CC AD-5. The Moots was/is just an elastomer in a tube.
> 
> In any case, none of them really exist anymore.
> 
> -Walt


Moots also made the YBB Air which uses the AD-5 shock. But there was also a version using a SID shock, also Litespeed used this shock.
If anyone has a SID shock for a soft tail, let me know.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Terrible lateral rigidity. Lateral rigidity (rigidity and power transfer in general) is one of the reasons you go with a hardtail.

Unfortunately, give what it takes to make one, steel or titanium, you end up with a frame that's as heavy as a good FS XC bike made out of aluminum or carbon, but with worse lateral rigidity in most cases.

It begs the question why.


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## iRider (Nov 15, 2005)

Jayem said:


> It begs the question why.


Why ride a 29er, why a fat bike, why 650B? Same answer applies to why ride a soft tail. In a certain environment and/or for a certain rider it might be the best tool for the job.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Walt said:


> The time of the soft tail has basically come and gone. Salsa stopped making the last available shock quite a few (5?) years ago. Cane Creek hasn't made one in at least a decade. Even if you wanted to build one, you'd be stuck with a decade-old, probably heavily used shock.
> 
> If you just want a little comfort, a suspension seatpost will do that. Or just a saddle with more padding, or bigger/lower pressure tires... If you want suspension, get a bike with actual suspension.
> 
> -Walt


Yay! I always thought the soft tail was a dumb design.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

PHeller said:


> Are we just better to look at lightweight, short travel, smart-package full suspension bikes?
> 
> I guess I'm looking at bikepackers (this topic came up), who see pivots and air shocks as spot lacking reliability on long distance rides.
> 
> ...


For bikepacking, a lot of full suspension designs don't allow easy mounting of frame packs. I thought that was the main reason for asking about soft tails. as far as reliability of full suspension bikes, that's not an issue most people worry about, I would guess.


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## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

I think there is absolutely a market for a short travel (1-1.5") soft tail. If they hadn't had to warranty so many Dos Niners I bet Salsa would still be making them. It's an excellent compromise between a HT and FS .

The people behind the Lauf fork could probably come up with one hell of a frame!

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Flat Ark said:


> I think there is absolutely a market for a short travel (1-1.5") soft tail. If they hadn't had to warranty so many Dos Niners I bet Salsa would still be making them. It's an excellent compromise between a HT and FS .
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Did they break?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

MikeDee said:


> Did they break?


Yes, yes they did. So did all the old Deans, and the Trek STPs and etc, etc. I think the Moots tend to hold up? I'm pretty sure the Sirens work ok, though I believe Brendan stopped making them.

You generate a lot of weird forces at the dropouts (the angle between the chainstay/seatstay changes as you go through the travel) so they can break there, and of course they often break at the chainstays too since those don't tend to flex all that well.

-Walt


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## iRider (Nov 15, 2005)

Aren't/weren't there a bunch of regular FS frames that also don't/didn't have a Horst Link and rely on flex in this spot? Some Treks and others? They must have seen more forces as they were longer travel. Or how was that solved?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

iRider said:


> Aren't/weren't there a bunch of regular FS frames that also don't/didn't have a Horst Link and rely on flex in this spot? Some Treks and others? They must have seen more forces as they were longer travel. Or how was that solved?


The older Cannondale Scalpels worked this way. Current ones have pivots.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Funk makes one:

La Ruta - Lightest Full-Suspension Titanium 29er | Funk Cycles

I believe the Spot Brand Rollick (in development) is also a soft tail. I'm just mentioning them....not endorsing either.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

While both the La Ruta and Rollick are more simple and less maintenance than the traditional multi-link suspension design, the packaging of those bikes doesn't hold any benefit over normal linkage suspension. 

What I was curious about, stemming from a discussion on the bikepacking forum, is if a modern soft-tail could be developed that allowed more space inside the front triangle for a frame bag, while potentially being more reliable than traditional full suspension bikes and still offering the performance of a full-suspension bike (ie not just an elastomer). 

What I've determined, and knew from the beginning, is that the modern full suspension bike is actually pretty damn reliable for all but the global explorer, and that a soft-tail wouldn't really have advantages over a traditional full suspension design, and the "comfort" of a dampened no-pivot frame could be replicated in a steel, titanium or even carbon frame.

I'd love to see more big clearance, short travel, lightweight non-carbon frames, like the early Salsa Spearfish (5.Xlbs with shock), only maybe with clearance for 3.25 tires. I feel like newer models gave up some space (but with increased reliability) and many would not consider the Bucksaw or Pony Rustler as bikepacking bikes.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I love my custom Curtlo Softail--bought it 4-5 years ago. As far as I know, they're still available. Doug does some very fine fillet brazing. Siren has posted (on facebook or someplace-I can't recall where) that they can no longer get shocks or they'd still happily offer one as well...

Gratuitous pic--bike weighs just a bit under 27 pounds. Not bad for steel! Rides and handles beautifully.


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## verrocchio100 (Jan 20, 2004)

Castellano Designs Fango is a nice ride.

Although a Silk Ti 29er would be the cats meow.

Too bad JC isnt taking any more orders as the backlog is over 2 years.

Although I did spy a Silk Ti and Bow Ti on a certain welders jig this weekend


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## seren (Dec 6, 2013)

I've seen a pic recently of a Blacksheep ti fat soft tail. Flex chainstays and linkage driven Fox air shock, but 90mm travel iirc probably puts it out of soft tail category...?


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## TBMD9er (May 22, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> Did they break?


The use of scandium tubes also seemed to be a factor to in the Dos Niners durability, and the Big Mama as well. I still have a lightly use relish air shock if anyone is interested.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Walt said:


> Yes, yes they did.
> 
> You generate a lot of weird forces at the dropouts (the angle between the chainstay/seatstay changes as you go through the travel) so they can break there, and of course they often break at the chainstays too since those don't tend to flex all that well.
> 
> -Walt


Whilst I have no experience with this design, I have always viewed the concept as a test of hardship on the chainstays. Too many stresses coming in at a variety of directions all at once. Something has to give.

Eric


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## OhNooo (Jan 20, 2007)

SteveF said:


> Siren has posted (on facebook or someplace-I can't recall where) that they can no longer get shocks or they'd still happily offer one as well...


I got one of the last Siren Song softails made 4 years ago. They did indeed have to stop because CC stopped making the post mount shock. The Siren brand has since been sold to another owner who is just making steel hard tails.

I love my Song. Sweetest bike I've ever owned. I will ride it as my main bike for many more years until it inevitably breaks. The air can is holding up nicely as I rebuild it every year or so. It only takes 10 minutes to rebuild that simple air can. No rebound control at all, just air damping. I've had zero flex issues with lateral flex as mentioned further up in this thread, so I don't know what that comment was about. And it fits bikepacking bags easily!


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Eric Malcolm said:


> Whilst I have no experience with this design, I have always viewed the concept as a test of hardship on the chainstays. Too many stresses coming in at a variety of directions all at once. Something has to give.
> Eric


My Curtlo stays are Ritchey designed and made specifically for soft-tail applications and Doug/Curtlo warranties against breakage for life. So It's possible to make a reliable one. I've certainly not babied this bike and it keeps on rolling...


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

OhNooo said:


> I got one of the last Siren Song softails made 4 years ago. They did indeed have to stop because CC stopped making the post mount shock. The Siren brand has since been sold to another owner who is just making steel hard tails.
> 
> I love my Song. Sweetest bike I've ever owned. I will ride it as my main bike for many more years until it inevitably breaks. The air can is holding up nicely as I rebuild it every year or so. It only takes 10 minutes to rebuild that simple air can. No rebound control at all, just air damping. I've had zero flex issues with lateral flex as mentioned further up in this thread, so I don't know what that comment was about. And it fits bikepacking bags easily!


The Song was a fantastic frame-I would've loved to gotten one. I wasn't sure if a soft tail was right for me, tho - and the Curtlo was much cheaper to buy. I'm really happy with it-I'm a fan of quality steel frames and it is beautifully built.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

PHeller said:


> With bikepacking gaining in popularity, many are finding it hard to find a bike that works on fast and rough terrain, but still offers the simplicity of hardtail.
> 
> Plus tires help to make the ride a bit more comfortable, but they lack dampening.
> 
> Is there any way to get full-suspension dampening without linkage? Are we better to just stick to comfort built steel and titanium?


I recently had a chance to swap back and forth from a 29" Moots YBB with ~2.2" tubeless tires, to an alu Trek Stache with 29 x 3" tubeless tires. Fit was a wash, as was suspension setup. Both riders had tires set with low (comfy but not squirmy) pressures.

I was very surprised that the Stache felt more compliant over square edges than the 1" travel YBB. Might not have believed it if I hadn't gotten to swap back and forth so many times, on my home trails.

Does this mean the softtail is dead, replaced by 29+ tires?

Not for me -- I'd still love (kill?) to have a softtail *with* plus tires, to complement my full-sus plow bike.


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