# Manitou Tower Pro Fork for Clydesdales - Techical



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey All;

I thought I would post regarding this product and the efforts I have been making to dial it in for my out-of-the-norm needs. Further, I wanted to add more than the review platform offers, and get it out there in the main forum so that everyone might see it. You can reference my review here;

Manitou Tower Pro 29er Forks Reviews

(Edit: TM's Tower tuning guide link http://www.jonesparkchronicles.com/ManitouTowerPro.html )

As things stand now, I am still working to get this fork to function well for someone my size (6'5"/240), riding the terrain that I do, without much success to date. The bottom line on most suspension products is that they simply do not offer a spring stiff enough for someone my size. Spring rate is the basis on which all other suspension function operates, and if it is not ideal, then nothing else will work right either. In fact, every other fork I have ever had has offered the same problem. In some cases, like my old Manitou Minute 1 or Fox Vanilla RLC, the combination of adjustments offered coupled with the bike in question allowed me to "work around" this basic deficiency and come up with a nice plush ride that was not burdened by excessive dive. This has not been the case with my new Niner RIP9 with the Tower Pro fork.

The Extra-firm spring is still far too soft. Adding air pressure never quite gets the job done, and offers a fairly non-linear progression from one extreme to the other; a plush ride but not enough dive control to far too stiff and harsh in the mid travel, with very little in between. Going from 100psi to 10-20psi more throws it over that threshold; solving the dive problem at the expense of the plush ride. I've exhausted all the adjustment and tuning parts that were generally available. What to do?

Well, on the advice of a review comment, I contacted Manitou by e-mail. At the risk of flooding them with all sorts of e-mails, the result has been that I got a direct response from and have been corresponding for the last month or so with the Chief Engineer of the suspension division. The Big Cheese at Manitou has taken a personal interest in my plight, and has been INCREDIBLY generous with technical information and advice. In a time when it is so very hard to get support for many of the things we do with the products we buy, and in an age of small companies getting gobbled up and folded into larger groups, I find this personal touch and interest quite amazing, and very heartening.

What I can tell you right now is that Manitou LISTENS to us. They were aware of my less than perfect review already, and wanted to help. They have products in the pipeline that are going to address my specific issue, and others that will help we users with an incredible array of technical information, and a superbly complete tuning kit to optimize the damping circuits. These guys are serious about us on the user end!

As of now, it is going to be a few months before the heavier-yet spring kit is available. In the interim, we had discussed adding some preload to the spring to fully activate it sooner in the suspension stroke. I installed a thick washer under the existing spring perch washer/bolt on the lower spring spacer rod, which increased its effective length by 4mm. I had previously settled on 120psi in the air chamber (10psi over the max suggestion!), but set the pressure at 90psi for this test ride. I seemed to notice a subtle change.

There seemed to be "more there." The ride was plush, but it seemed as though the fork was a little less prone to diving or blowing through all of its travel as it had before. I was also riding with a click or two less compression damping, and all of this suggests to me that the preload increase improved the situation, and that further, we are on the right track with the heavier spring due out soon.

I got a very gracious care package in the mail the other day that, among other things, contained a longer drive rod (goes between the spring and air piston, inside the fork stanchion) that will increase spring preload to 6.8mm as a means of offering some more suspension rate and dive control. I am very eager to test this increased preload and see if it confirms the subtle effect I thought I felt with only 4mm of preload from my previous mod. I also got some nice fork and semi bath oil, and some damping shims. Another idea is to increase the amount of semi bath oil from 5cc to 10cc, which will give a bit more firmness to the air piston motion. Beyond that, if the spring theory holds true, I am hoping the damping "shim stack" as supplied will then work as it supposed to. If not, I am going to have to decipher the incredible amount of technical information in print that was e-mailed to me. Pages and pages of shim stack variations with supporting dyno graphs to show the effect relative to other arrangements. This gets TECHNICAL!

I hope this treatise proves useful to others out there. Look for further updates along the way as I twiddle with it. Quite frankly, I have been very disappointed that I have not been able to fall in love with this new bike of mine. Through this post I also want to give a shout out to a company (Manitou) through an employee ("anonymous," for now) that have gone out of their way to help me to enjoy my new bike the way I had hoped to. I truly feel this is a good product at a great price, and getting this kind of support to tailor it for my needs is really B-itchin!!

As I signed one of my e-mails;

John Hajny
Manitou Field Test Engineer
Clydesdale Components Group

(For the record, I have no connection to the company, other than owning their product)


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## 29buzz (Nov 5, 2004)

Very true-they are there for ya! On the expert model-the xtra-firm is well,XTRA FIRM...we got one in for a fork...too stiff for a 250lb rider with no air. They sent a firm-no cost to set it up. It works great-20lb air and the firm spring. The Pro is different-but when you get dialed-it will amaze you! Such nice forks for the money. They are my shops go to fork for builds and upgrades.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

I would ask Manitou to swap the internals from an Expert model & run the stiffest coil then add air for preload. I weigh 50lb. less than you and hate single fill air forks.


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## jujuyak (Feb 16, 2008)

Please keep us updated when you get the new spring. I'm 260 # and will be in the market for a new fork after Christmas. I have nothing but good things to say about my current Minute fork, so the Tower is on my short list. Glad to hear Manitou is treating you as a valued customer


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

I ran into similar problems with my Tower Pro. I'm not quite as heavy as you are though and the extra-firm spring kit is working well for me...I'm weighing about 210 pounds though.


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

I had the X-firm spring and ~100 psi in the chamber, and my Minute/Tower fork would still dive like crazy with my 185 lbs. I also had four forks in a row, sent directly from Manitou, all with bad CSAs that would start to make horrible noises in a matter of months.

By the second fork, I didn't even have to pay to ship it out to them. Their CS is good, but it can't make up for a bad product.

The latest, brand-new Tower fork they sent me is currently for sale.


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2011 Fork Service Manual.pdf

Here's a link to the 2011 Service Manual.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

Does anyone know where an illustrated walkthrough is for changing the springs on these forks? I ordered a firm kit a long time ago, but I've been too nervous to install it.


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## HalFliP (Mar 15, 2009)

Been on my Tower Pro since March '11 with no issues. Swap to X-Firm spring was easy peasy and only took like 10 min. I weigh 200 to 210 depending on the day and am running an 80mm Pro version. This is easily one of the best forks I have owned....and almost prefer it due to the simplicity and quality of the damping. Between the XFirm and ABS+.....I can get to settings that work.

Hopefully you guys can get your issues worked out......good luck.


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## HalFliP (Mar 15, 2009)

Donkey: I found a thread on here somewhere that went through the spring swap. I can seem to find it now....but there was a post that really helped me. Truth is that this fork is super easy to work on because the spring is not swimming in oil. There is a certain amount of oil in the same leg as the spring but if you took the advice(like I did) from the guy in the post, it will save you the trouble of having to deal with replacing said oil. 

Look for the Tower Pro manual on the Manitou site. You will see how to remove the lowers to access spring. But, before you pull the bolts out of the bottoms of the lowers, invert the fork enough (easier if you have a repair stand) so that the oil runs back down toward the crown. Then, replace the bolts with tapered rubber stoppers(I picked up some in the drawers at Home Depot) and reinvert the fork to normal position and let it sit long enough for the oil to run back into lowers. With the rubber plugs snug enough, the oil will not leak out the hole at the bottom of each leg. Remove the lowers, rods, and spring. Make your swap, and reinstall rods, then just reinstall the lowers making sure the oil doesn't have a chance to leak out, by flipping the fork accordingly. Once the seals are back over the stachions, you can again invert the fork so it's easier to reinstall the bolts on eace leg. Presto, no need to measure any bit of oil. (It's a minimal amout of oil anyway, just for lubrication purposes) All the damping oil is in a separate chamber in the upper portion of the opposite leg.

Took me all of 15 minutes or so. Hope this helps.


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## NVman (Jun 7, 2006)

I have been running the Minute Pro 140mm (yes, I still run 26" wheels so please don;t flame me) on my trail bike and after making some tuning mods to the damper the performance was night and day! That combined with the X-firm spring has the fork tuned perfectly for my style of riding. I live in Vancouver, BC and we deal with a lot of steep terrain and big rocks and roots.

Trail Maker, I have found that for bigger guys and aggressive riding that the linear tunes are the way to go. You get a nice ramp up at the end of the stroke without getting the spiking from having to run too much platform. I went for the most aggressive linear tune (eliminates the platform and makes the damper more like TPC) that gives the highest ending stroke damping level from the tunes offered. I have not missed the platform setting at all since i can just max the damper to reduce bobbing while pedaling. 

Let me know what you think if you try it.

Good luck!


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Bottom line suspension forks are designed around a 170lb rider. X-firm spring kits usually max out @ a rider weight of about 220lb. Only forks that I know of that handled heavier riders, w/ some degree of proper operation, were older dual coil Marz. forks w/ dual coils and air assist. The only 29er fork I can think of that might be Clyde friendly would be a Reba Dual Air.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm around 215 geared up, and I run the firm spring with only 50 psi air and find it perfect! Not sure why your fork is so far off mark?


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I just put a Tower Expert on my Salsa. I'm loving it so far and it's not even broken in yet. The fork, like the Pro is super easy to work on so don't be intimidated. Since I'm paranoid I decided to check the semi bath oil levels on mine (6 hours riding time) since there really is next to nothing to start with. I'd guess there was a little more than half of what should have been there. Looks like the factory skimped out a bit. 

If you take yours apart have a look at the quantity and condition of the semi bath oil instead of trying to use stoppers and such to prevent the 16cc from leaking out of each leg. Clean the dust wipers and the foam rings, if dirty. Clean out the lower legs if you need to. When you refill, soak the be-jesus out of the foam rings, drain out the excess and then add the 16 cc to each side before pushing the lowers fully on. A quart of full synthetic 5w-40 costs ~$10 and will provide you about 1 million semi-bath changes. 

Drew


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## EclipseRoadie (Oct 7, 2007)

Tower Pro on my Niner, it's got an X-firm spring kit and I currently weigh around 225. It's worked pretty well for me at this point, but I do wish it was firmer. I'm really interested in a stiffer spring. I'll be following this one.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

keen said:


> Bottom line suspension forks are designed around a 170lb rider. X-firm spring kits usually max out @ a rider weight of about 220lb. Only forks that I know of that handled heavier riders, w/ some degree of proper operation, were older dual coil Marz. forks w/ dual coils and air assist. The only 29er fork I can think of that might be Clyde friendly would be a Reba Dual Air.


I've been riding a 2010 Reba Team since April. At 255 lbs, it always feels soft and divey. I actually preferred the RS Tora 318 I had on my old bike.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

bluestatevirgin said:


> I've been riding a 2010 Reba Team since April. At 255 lbs, it always feels soft and divey. I actually preferred the RS Tora 318 I had on my old bike.


 I currently have a 2010 Reba and weigh 200lb. My buddy weighs 235lb w/ the same fork. In order to combat a "soft divey" condition you need to run the positive @ least 15psi higher than the negative. Tuning for equal pressures might work for your average weight rider.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

keen said:


> I currently have a 2010 Reba and weigh 200lb. My buddy weighs 235lb w/ the same fork. In order to combat a "soft divey" condition you need to run the positive @ least 15psi higher than the negative. Tuning for equal pressures might work for your average weight rider.


Tried that. Helped some. Guess I just like a super-firm travel. I got some advice on another thread regarding setting the positive pressure, emptying the negative, then airing up the negative in stages. I'll try that. Also going to increase the bath oil levels. However, I also got one of the Rebas with the offsett lowers from fleabay. I had the wheel dished to compensate, but sooner or later I'm buying a new fork. Messing with suspension tuning is not particularly fun for me. If I can't find an acceptable clyde fork, I'm going rigid. Awaiting news from this post, and to hear what Manitou might have coming in the future.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

bluestatevirgin said:


> Tried that. Helped some. Guess I just like a super-firm travel. I got some advice on another thread regarding setting the positive pressure, emptying the negative, then airing up the negative in stages. I'll try that. Also going to increase the bath oil levels. However, I also got one of the Rebas with the offsett lowers from fleabay. I had the wheel dished to compensate, but sooner or later I'm buying a new fork. Messing with suspension tuning is not particularly fun for me. If I can't find an acceptable clyde fork, I'm going rigid. Awaiting news from this post, and to hear what Manitou might have coming in the future.


You should be able to easily firm the fork up by running higher positive pressures & lower neg. You can't adjust the damper oil level it isn't an open bath fork - it will just hydra lock.


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## EclipseRoadie (Oct 7, 2007)

one incredible donkey said:


> Does anyone know where an illustrated walkthrough is for changing the springs on these forks? I ordered a firm kit a long time ago, but I've been too nervous to install it.


It's really simple, take a look at Manitou's service section on the site. There are step by step directions on there. I haven't been able to find any video's.


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## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

keen said:


> You should be able to easily firm the fork up by running higher positive pressures & lower neg. You can't adjust the damper oil level it isn't an open bath fork - it will just hydra lock.


Thanks. I'll keep working towards a solution.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Trailmaker - Glad that Manitou has been so responsive with you. Like I said before, I was able to get a quick reply from them and even recently got a call from the engineer that helped me out asking if I had changed the spring in mine (which I actually just did to the firm) and how I was like it. Talked with him quickly on the phone and he was saying that he rides the Tower Pro 100mm as well with the firm spring and is a bit lighter than me but runs around 40psi in his. I have found that if I run around 70psi I can leave the fork completely unlocked and get no bob when standing to climb on my HT. But when descending I feel that somewhere between 40 and 50psi is what gives the least amount of trail chatter/feedback. All in all I am completely satisfied with my purchase of the Tower Pro and will look into Hayes other products (the parent company of Manitou) for other things such as brakes, bars, etc. 

Seriously, since building my bike and asking LOTS of questions of different companies there have only been two that have followed up by phone; GEAX and Manitou. Both calls were from engineers to follow up on questions I had asked previously and received some sort of email response from already. That is what I call customer service.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I might be one of the larger riders on the Manitou Expert at 290#, but I have had good luck with the firm spring kit offered by Manitou. I spoke with a rep prior to purchasing the fork, and it was suggested I purchase the Expert because it utilizes a spring w/ air assist, whereas the Pro is Air w/ spring assist. 

I have honestly not had a chance to play with psi, preload, or shim stack setups as when I have the chance to ride.....I gotta get out and ride. But I do plan on playing around with it more as time goes on. 

I will say that I do have a lot of pedal bob when climbing, and purchased a lock-out to combat that problem, which has worked great!! I will not say the pedal bob is 100% the forks problem, as I am sure I don't have very good climbing technique. I also get a fair amount of brake dive, but I have a 203mm rotor on front w/ xtr's. Some riders may consider the 203mm overkill for the typical xc rider, but that is because they are not trying to bring a schoolbus to a stop in short order. 

I do think there would be a decent market segment for equipment for the larger rider. But there needs to be better support regarding setups and guidelines for those who need it. There are 10k different threads that apply to 90% of the riders, but the larger guys are kinda s.o.l. when it comes to anything outside the normal weight range. 

Manitou was the only solution that I found for someone my size, so as long as they have their foot in the door, they should devote everything they can for the larger rider. Seeing as how they should have a larger budget (being owned by a larger company) they should be able to throw some $$ to r&d. 

DO IT!!!


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## S:Drive (Aug 19, 2009)

I am 250lbs, most likely 260lbs geared up. I run a firm and around 100psi with 3 to 4 clicks of compression and have been very happy with my fork. I have the same setup up on my SS and Fully. Fully is 100mm of travel, and then SS is 80mm of travel.

That being said, when I got the firm spring I did not know they made an extra firm spring. Something to think about, and drop the air pressure.


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## Badassbassangler (Jul 11, 2011)

It was some time ago that I had to deal with Manitou over a fork issue. I too can say that I was treated with the best customer service that one could hope for! My mid-priced TPC spring/elastomer fork cracked at the brake-arch/outer leg junction. I sent it back after talking with a very respectful sales associate and was "given" a brand new fork with better internals than the one that broke...AND it was "Mango", a hot color option back in the day!

The Manitou people treated me very good and I'm glad to see they're still backing their customers. Just because of their customer service I will buy one of their forks over the others,(not that I've had problems with anyone else). 

I'm putting together a 29er KMonkey and if I don't like "rigid" I'll be buying a Manitou...any suggestions?


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## S:Drive (Aug 19, 2009)

Badassbassangler said:


> It was some time ago that I had to deal with Manitou over a fork issue. I too can say that I was treated with the best customer service that one could hope for! My mid-priced TPC spring/elastomer fork cracked at the brake-arch/outer leg junction. I sent it back after talking with a very respectful sales associate and was "given" a brand new fork with better internals than the one that broke...AND it was "Mango", a hot color option back in the day!
> 
> The Manitou people treated me very good and I'm glad to see they're still backing their customers. Just because of their customer service I will buy one of their forks over the others,(not that I've had problems with anyone else).
> 
> I'm putting together a 29er KMonkey and if I don't like "rigid" I'll be buying a Manitou...any suggestions?


I like the Tower Pro 80mm travel on my SS. Might be the way to go for you, seeing as you are considering a rigid setup. The 80mm fork will keep the front end lower, and closer to you rigid setup if you like the way the rigid handles, but just want to smooth the ride out.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah they have been seriously a great company to deal with and I am in love with my Tower Pro. Was thinking about building a full suspension bike in a year or so and figure when I do it will be loaded up with Hayes,Manitou, Answer, and SRAM stuff.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

WOW;

BIG GUYS ROOL! Great response fellas. Every component manufacturer needs to see the interest this thread has provoked. There are enough of us out there that it should interest them.

I can report from my test rides with 6.8mm of preload on my X-firm spring that it DOES indeed make a difference, and it makes me double excited about the even stiffer spring coming out soon. I am able to ride with 10-20psi less air - which is always the best for ride quality - and yet I am using slightly less travel. I also do not notice it diving as badly, which I believe is the result of there being better support through the mid range of the travel. I am also using 1-2 clicks less compression damping.

Let me copy in all of my notes so far, hopefully to help others with their efforts;

*Manitou Tower Pro tuning Notes
by TrailMaker*

*MOD *- Added stiff spring. 100+/-psi air pressure. 2-3 clicks from locked on compression.
Result - Still too soft. Blowing through too much travel too easily. Too much dive. Dive is very sudden. The fork feels bottomless and I never feel a bottom out, but I use most of the travel very easily. The bike is endo happy like this, and gets caught on obstacles easily. Same old same old like all my other forks

*MOD *- Added Extra Stiff spring. Generally running at 100-120psi air pressure. 2-3 clicks from max on compression.
Result - No real difference in the attitude of the bike. Maybe a little better but still way too soft in the front with too much dive. Definite air spring "spike" feel in the mid-range travel, making the ride harsh and non-resilient. Lower pressure eliminates this, but the dive returns. The damping is not very linear. Nothing much happens until you near max and then it ramps quickly. The lockout platform level and blow off point is good. I have used it on steep downhills to try and keep the front up. It accomplishes this without being too harsh to give a bit, and blows off nicely when needed.
__________________________________________________________________________
*Note*: Air pressure level has a very sharp break point in effectiveness. Up to a point it does not adversely affect the ride, but 5-10 psi more spikes it sharply and ruins the ride quality. The break point seems to be at about 95psi for me. I would assume I would like the air level to be far lower to achieve the well-controlled plushness I desire. Good small bump compliance with more mid-range ramp up. More coil, less air seems to be what I want.
________________________________________________________________________
*MOD *- Added 4mm washer under existing spring perch washer/bolt on alloy spacer rod to shim spring preload. 90psi air pressure. 3 clicks from locked.
Result - Seemed to notice a slight improvement in spring and travel linearity. Still blowing through travel, but seemed to have more mid-range resistance to doing so even with lower air pressure. Also was able to ride 3-4 clicks from locked on compression (1 less). Overall seemed to have more firmness in the mid-range of the travel, with less pronounced dive. Very subtle but noticeable. Also dialed in a bit more rebound and hit the sweet spot where the front ride "went quiet."

*MOD *- Added Manitou long drive rod, increasing spring preload by another 2.8mm (6.8mm total). Started at 90psi air pressure.
Result - Definitely reinforced the feeling of and increased the improvement from the last preload increase. Not using as much of the travel as easily. It now takes a pretty deep dip to reach the same travel limit as before. Was able to ride at lower compression (3-4< max) along with the lower air pressure. Now noticed an obvious top out clunk on long cadence climbs. I'm assuming this is the result of the increased spring preload blowing off the rebound shim more easily. Tried 100psi air pressure, but it ruined the plushness. Tried 95 and it was less harsh but not as resilient as I would like. Definitely preferred 90psi, but it was a little too soft in terms of travel used. Kept increasing rebound until it was at about 80% slow. The front is now "quiet." Overall a very worthwhile improvement. This does not solve the issue, as the spring still allows too much travel used too easily, but the improvement tells me I am on the right course. No amount of preload will cure things for this spring. The latest heavy spring will hopefully FIX this problem for good.

The overall impression of this ride was that I spent more time noticing what the rear felt like than the front. We're getting there!


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## Badassbassangler (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm saving this post! Thanks for all of the Tower-Pro advice!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

one incredible donkey said:


> Does anyone know where an illustrated walkthrough is for changing the springs on these forks? I ordered a firm kit a long time ago, but I've been too nervous to install it.


Hey;

It is exceptionally simple to do. I can do it in about 15 minutes, and that includes removing the fork from the bike! I have the manual, but I find it a bit obscure in spots, and not completely representative of some aspects of the Tower.* Some of the info is for earlier and/or different models*, and can be off-putting.

I put the fork in my bench vise, angled slightly downward from the top so no oil drains out.

-12mm wrench and take off the spring shaft keeper bolt on the bottom of the left leg, R/H thread.
- 2mm Allen wrench takes off the rebound knob screw, right leg. R/H thread.
- I don't remember the size (8mm?) Allen wrench runs the threaded end of the rebound keeper out of the bottom of the right fork leg.* LEFT HAND THREAD*.
- Slide the legs down, and then a slight tug to pull the wiper seals off the stanchions. Keep the leg housing pointed slightly down and set aside that way so oil does not drain out.
- 22mm wrench to remove the spring housing nut from the bottom of the left fork stanchion. The alloy spring shaft/rubber spacers/large plastic nut can be set aside. Above that is the spring. Pull the spring out, get the new one, grease it up, and slide it in. Make sure it slides over the spring/piston rod end.
- Tighten the plastic nut to specified torque. Push the legs back onto the stanchions until you feel it engage the shafts. Look inside each bolt hole at the bottom of the legs and line up the rods (small screw driver) to get the fasteners back in. Thread in the keeper bolt in the right leg. Insert your Allen wrench, push up lightly on the legs, and screw the rebound shaft back down into the bottom of the left fork leg. Install the rebound knob, and you're done!

I do not remove the top of the left spring leg (air cap) so there is no oil to spill there. 5cc of bath oil for the MARS system if you spill. it is just a lubricant. I didn't have any, so I used Mobil 1 10x30 which he says is fine. I was told by the engineer that 10cc will make it a little firmer.

I plan to do a REAL accurate and detailed photo essay of this procedure, which I might send to Manitou for their use.

PLEASE do not hesitate to PM me when you are ready to go. I'd be glad to walk you though it!

Cheers - TM


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

NVman said:


> Trail Maker, I have found that for bigger guys and aggressive riding that the linear tunes are the way to go. You get a nice ramp up at the end of the stroke without getting the spiking from having to run too much platform. I went for the most aggressive linear tune (eliminates the platform and makes the damper more like TPC) that gives the highest ending stroke damping level from the tunes offered. I have not missed the platform setting at all since i can just max the damper to reduce bobbing while pedaling.
> 
> Let me know what you think if you try it.
> 
> Good luck!


This is AWESOME feedback;

The amount of cadence climbing I do is squat, so platform is of little interest to me. I'm all about small bump compliance, good linear/progressive ramp up of compression damping, and bottomless travel. The Tower Pro has the bottomless for sure, but not the others for me so much. I have a document from Manitou that shows ALL of their damping dyno charts and shim stacks for all three series (XC [big platform], Trail [some platform], Linear [little platform]).

Thanks a bunch for the tip! :thumbsup:


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow... ok I might have to look into the shim stacking for some more fine tuning of my fork. I feel like it is just about dialed but that there is something slightly missing. Unfortunately, with the weather changing here I have had less and less time to ride and thus cannot test as easily. I do have a small course (~3 mile loop with climbs, step downs, small drops, flow, small rock gardens, and one jump) though that I can test things like this on. Now just need the time to get out there, take a note pad and some small tools with me and make the adjustments, ride, adjust, ride, rinse and repeat.


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## Goran_injo (Jul 4, 2007)

S:Drive said:


> I like the Tower Pro 80mm travel on my SS. Might be the way to go for you, seeing as you are considering a rigid setup. The 80mm fork will keep the front end lower, and closer to you rigid setup if you like the way the rigid handles, but just want to smooth the ride out.


+1, have the Tower Pro 80mm on my Mary SS for half a year now, performs flawlessly on any parameter.

Just wiping off dirt and lubing stachions after each ride and that is it.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

Here's the schematic for the spring side.

- Remove bolt *#1*, Right Leg, 12mm wrench.
- Remove the small screw and rebound knob in the same place on the other leg. Pull off the lower leg casting.
- *#2* is the large 22mm plastic nut that holds the spring drive rod *#3* in. All of *#3* comes out as an assembly.
- The spring *#4* will slide out.
- What I call the spring to air piston spacer rod *#5* (blue plastic) will slide out after that.

I placed my 4mm washer under the washer that is under the bolt *#6* in the end of the drive rod. The part I received from Manitou was a longer spacer rod *#5*.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Here are the torque specs for the fork bits.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

And...

The machine in question, for those that like pics. I did my own custom graphics.


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## snajper69 (Mar 6, 2011)

Any update on the resolution? I have similar issues.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

snajper69 said:


> Any update on the resolution? I have similar issues.


Hey;

All I can offer right now is that my contact (the Chief Engineer) is travelling to Taiwan this week to visit their factory. He said he would check on the progress of the heavier spring while he was there.

You know... the more I think about this, the more I like what *NVman* had to say. I don't really give a hoot about platform, as I do so little cadence peddling anywhere that I ride. I'm all about small bump smoothness transitioning seamlessly to enough ramp up in damping to handle those big hits on _ganarly_ downhills.

I rode tonight on some _monstrously _root infested trails - which is a "real hoot" at night I might add! - with a couple of fairly fast, undulating, steep downhills, and I must say that the fork is acting very nicely now. It still is a little too soft in the spring to be ideal for me, but the resistance to blowing through the travel so quickly is much improved. For anyone riding smoother and/or flatter terrain, or not quite as heavy as I am, you might consider this preload upgrade I've done. It might tune you in just right.

I mentioned in our last e-mail that now that I could see the light at the end of my fork tuning tunnel, I would like to then turn my (our) attention to the rear shock. The RP23 suffers from the same problem as the fork, but it does not offer any real user tuning options. The only thing you can really do is send it to Push and hope they pick a tune that works. I think I will swing my business toward the Hayes Group and select one of their Manitou shocks for my Niner instead. They've earned the business with me!


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm not sure but I believe the M Tower is similar to my M Minute??? I too have had trouble dialing my fork in for my Clyde Ride. I first started riding my MM last Feb where I experienced excessive pedal bob on the climbs and severe brake dive. I contacted Manitou where they promptly provided a part number for the heavier spring which helped with the pedal bob. After conducting a little research and reading the thread below I made the following adjustment which resulted in zero pedal bob, no brake dive and when the fork is locked out it rides like a ridged fork until I experience a hard hit where I'll get the audible click of the ABS+ blowing off:

Installed recommended heavier spring (can't find details because it's been over six months)
Changed oil to 15wt
Adjusted shim stack to one velocity shim and four blow-off shims.

My riding weight is currently down to 300lbs and I'm running the fork at 120psi. My M Minute 29 is performing better than any fork I have ever ridden. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/how-guide-reshim-your-abs-hsc-shim-stack-687754.html


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Wow...

300? And I've got size issues? Keep peddling brother! :thumbsup: I'd say this new stiffer spring they are working on would be great for you. It would allow you to run less air, which is always a good idea if you can do it. Air tends to be very "spikey" in its action in the midrange, not linear like a spring. The fork can be too soft, so you add and add and then all of a sudden it gets really harsh. The spring preload I have added, and the very positive effect it has had, strongly suggests that this new stiffer spring will be just the ticket.

There is some good info in that link. I plan on carefully documenting my shim work when I get there.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> I plan on carefully documenting my shim work when I get there.


Dialing in the shims was the single most important improvement I made...it was night and day after discovering the right combination...

Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

zenkem said:


> Dialing in the shims was the single most important improvement I made...it was night and day after discovering the right combination...
> 
> Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com


Hey;

Another good link. That Tuning Kit pictured will be a real Godsend to those of us who need the revised damping. It is really great that Manitou is gong to make it available to end users. I have a .pdf of the booklet pictured. It has a wide variety of shim stacks depicted, along with dyno charts to illustrate its effect on fork action. If the spring change does not solve all my fork issues, I will be getting into this booklet in earnest!

Along with the new parts available, Manitou sees the need for improved documentation, which I have discussed with my contact. I took the liberty of re-writing and embellishing some of the text in the booklet. The information was very in depth, but not necessarily well written. Look for some improvements to the text in their next reprint. I will also be submitting my tuning guide to Manitou in case they may find it useful for future publication.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I heard about that Tuning Kit somewhere but wondering if it was a figment of my imagination. Cant wait for that so I can really get in there and tune my fork!!!


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

gregnash said:


> I heard about that Tuning Kit somewhere but wondering if it was a figment of my imagination. Cant wait for that so I can really get in there and tune my fork!!!


I just seen this at Chainreaction...no pic's though:

Manitou Absolute + Tuning Kit
Manitou Absolute + Tuning Kit | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I would say that based on the pics, that kit is a bit overdone for the average end user. That would even be overkill for most dealers, who rarely even do this stuff. It is probably based on what the factory might take to a race. I would think that something a bit less exhaustive would be more in line with people's budgets and needs. Something with a good selection of shims, seals, o-rings, any vulnerable pieces that like to break/fail, and maybe a few of those pesky detent springs/balls that like to jump away from you. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $50.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

All you really need are the shims unless you mess up an o-ring during disassembly. As per the other Thread here's a good source for the shims:

MX-Tech.com - MX-Tech Suspensions - Catalog


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah Trailmaker, I agree that a much smaller "tuning" kit would be nice. But then again if you fall in love with the fork and plan on keeping it for a while it would be nice to have the full kit that has EVERYTHING in it should you ever need random repairs or whatever.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Any more on this Trailmaker? I know that it is winter and all but we have been seeing an unseasonably dry one (still no snow in Tahoe). Finally getting a chance to get out after all the family goings on. Looks like it may be lunch rides for a while for me.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Yeh, Things are all over the map this time of year. I have not followed up since the Mr. Manitou went to the factory in Taiwan a couple of weeks back. I will get that ball rolling again after the New Year. I have been getting rides in here in Southern Upstate NY as we have had little snow and fairly mild temps for the most part. The fork's performance is noticeably improved with the increased spring preload. Still, the spring is FAR too soft for my needs, which are moderate in terms of riding style but not in terms of weight. I took it down a VERY steep grade the other day that is loose and leaf covered and requires a lot of brake application and control of same. The spring just squashed flat, and the front dived so deep I had to lean back, hook the seat into my stomach to keep from endoing, and skid all the way down. Very tacky performance, and not a controlled decent by any means.

Keep prodding this thread as it is important to quite a few folks. I'll get back and report as I get more info.

:thumbsup:


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## Badassbassangler (Jul 11, 2011)

"Keep prodding this thread as it is important to quite a few folks. I'll get back and report as I get more info."

YES INDEED! Thanks for keeping this thread alive!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok since I have put in the new spring I noticed one thing. Seems like my small bump compliance is gone, I get A LOT of trail chatter if I am going fast through a bumpy area. I have it set at its fastest as is right now so it should not be doing this? I am going for a ride at lunch so I will play with it then but anyone have thoughts.

Guess I will have to look at the shim stack tuning too as I wan this thing DIALED by May next year (first race).


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I'm unsure of what fork you have, and the spring you have now, but two things. 

1) If you are not getting all the spring travel, especially with the damping "off" (which is the perfect state to test for this), then that spring is too stiff. If you are getting all of the travel available, or nearly that, then the spring is proper for your weight and riding style. If, like me, you blow through the travel far too easily, the spring is too soft. After all of that is decided, it comes down to damping. I doubt you are too stiff with your damping, as most of the forks come standard with a fairly limited ramp up in the compression rate.

2) Pay very close attention to the motion, particularly in terms of travel. If you ARE getting some travel motion on small bump, then you might want to visit your rebound damping. A stiffer spring will require more rebound damping, which is obvious if you think about it. What you feel as lack of compliance may only be the extraneous noise of suspension that is cycling too rapidly. A little more rebound added may make the ride go deliciously "quiet" like we all want it to be.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Figured it out!!! unfortunately either my fork didnt come with a rebound adjustment sticker or it came off as some point. I have been running it as the LBS set it up and it was set as the ABSOLUTE slowest rebound, which was why I was feeling all the chatter. Cranked it back out and sure enough it is much more compliant on the small stuff now... just have to fine tune it...


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

gregnash said:


> Figured it out!!! unfortunately either my fork didnt come with a rebound adjustment sticker or it came off as some point. I have been running it as the LBS set it up and it was set as the ABSOLUTE slowest rebound, which was why I was feeling all the chatter. Cranked it back out and sure enough it is much more compliant on the small stuff now... just have to fine tune it...


DOINK!

Well, if they did it, so much for your LBS!  NOBODY sets rebound full slow. Usual rule of thumb is around 20% from full fast and tune to suit from there. I don't remember either of my Manitou forks having any indicators of rebound range whatsoever. Beyond the traditionally mushy control feel, that is also kinda dumb. I always scribe a line in the leg at either end of the rebound range so I know where the heck I am.

The thing that puzzles me is how it worked at all well for you with the other spring?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Other spring was setup from the factory and I played with it. Once I had the LBS swap the springs for me I did not play with the rebound thinking that they had set it up properly (plus I havent ridden all the much since then). I did not know if it was just the feel of the new spring or not so more DOINK on me than them. Probably heard them say fast when they actually said it was set to slowest and then said I needed to adjust. Who knows, I am happy now though.


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

*29er tower pro*

Hi I weigh about 250 and I called a bike shop to ask wether I needed the firm or extra firm spring. The guy at the bike shop said from what he has seen I would not really get full compression with the Xfirm and suggested the Firm. Manitou suggested the Xfirm. I ordered a Firm but now Im not sure if I need to order the X firm. ANy thoughts. is there any literature with specs on the springs.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

stevejill91 said:


> Hi I weigh about 250 and I called a bike shop to ask wether I needed the firm or extra firm spring. The guy at the bike shop said from what he has seen I would not really get full compression with the Xfirm and suggested the Firm. Manitou suggested the Xfirm. I ordered a Firm but now Im not sure if I need to order the X firm. ANy thoughts. is there any literature with specs on the springs.


Hey;

It depends on how and what you ride. If you are predominantly riding smooth, groomed, rolling terrain, then a softer spring will be sufficient. If you ride anything nearly technical in nature, rough, rocky, rooty, steep downhills, creekbeds, logpiles, etc., then you need to go firmer. I blow though most of my travel just on the entry trails getting into the parks here. The MARS Air system forks (like the Tower) are predominantly sprung by air, with a coil spring in conjunction acting on the air piston in support. The spring needs to be firmer in these forks. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the spring with air assist family of forks offer spring rates that will be stiff enough to control your weight for rough terrain.

If you have a MARS Air system fork and ride rougher terrain, the x-firm is still too soft for anything remotely technical, but it is your only option right now. The super firm spring has not hit the pipeline yet. I am still in contact with them and am encouraging the to bring it along ASAP.

Until then, Jeopardy music...


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

I ride them all. I am not heavy on the bike and predominantly keep all my weight at the middle to back half of the bike. My friends are heavy on the front. Im not sure if I picked up that habbit from road riding or downhilling. Anyhow I purchased both and I will start with which ever ride kit comes in first. I ride a Suntour XCR with lockout now and it works fine for me I just dont like the lack of smooth action and sticktion. I felt a rockshock recon silver TK and it felt fine to me and I believe its all air spring but I dont know if it is naturally stiffer by design. Reading coparisons people like the Manitou over the recon .


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

You will find this suspension to be much better. Be warned though that there is some tuning that will need to be done to get it to YOUR spot on performance. I have been riding mine with the Firm spring (I am 185-190 on a given day) and finding that I still love this fork. It is responsive, plush, and just a joy to ride. I am sure that there is something better out there but at the cost of an extra $300+. For the money you cannot really go wrong, and with their customer service (along with Hayes and Sun Ringle) you have to love supporting the little guy and helping them have a better product.


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok I got my 29er pro on and it feels great. From what I understand the new 29ers will come with a firm spring kit. Even being 250 it feels fine so far for me with 105 lb air in it. I think the XX firms will be available in a few months as well. I ordered an X firm spring just in case i need one but for now the firm might do. I even contacted a bike shop with experience with these forks and they also stated and even with my weight (we all ride diff) the Xfirm might be too much. I will be riding tomorrow on a rvery rough and rocky trail with lots of fast steep up/down on it and I will update my experience. I have pic on my album of my bike but I have not posted enough to attach a photo yet.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Of course do let us know how it goes. Here is a good measure of whether you have enough spring; ride the steepest loosest hill you are likely ever nuts enough to try. If you can do it and not skid the rear wheel too much, you have enough spring for your riding. I cannot do this. I rode an incredibly steep and loose downhill last week that on my other bikes I can do with great control. I was quite out of control with the Tower Pro as it is right now. I had no rear brake control whatsoever, which shows much too much weight transfer forward, with nothing pushing back on this weight to stabilize the chassis and offer me any rear grip. It was pretty hairy. Fortunately, it is fairly short, and I made it without a bailout There is only one trail around here that I lower my seat for on my other bikes. With the front dive on this bike, the trail turns from gnarly fun into frightening!


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok took the bike out on single track, lots of ups/ downs, loose, rocky, wet, muddy. I will be lookig for any feed back from any of you guys.

Anyhow the fork with firm spring never bottomed out and I weigh 250-260. What took me by surprise is the feel. It felt squirly. I kept reading that it was very rigid and it may be but it felt wierd. It felt so diff. from the Suntour XCR spring with lockout. It seemed as though the bike wanted to track everywere and not just role. I'm not sure it the rake (caster) is diff or if this feel is normal. Otherwise it felt pretty normal normal. I just did not expect such a diff. feel to the front end. Ill probubly get used to it but still.
Any thoughts out there. I'll wait for replys while I ice my ankle (biffed it once) LOL


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

finally, 10 posts.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Well;

A bit tricky to discern from your description, honestly. Don't be so overly technical!  If you've got more travel than before (front end raised), then the head tube angle is probably slacker now. That will make it more wandery at slower speeds but more stable and confidence inspiring on fast downhill terrain. To some extent, this my also happen if the stiffer spring has you riding higher in the same travel.

What will happen most definitely is that the stiffer spring will overcome the previous rebound setting you had. You likely will need more rebound damping to counter the increased spring pressure trying to extend the fork faster. Faster rebound makes the front end feel busy and "noisy." It will definitely not track as well because it reacts too much to every little pebble. When you hit the right rebound setting, the front end will just go completely "quiet" and the ride will be almost unremarkable. THAT is where you want it to be. Nothing to remark on other than it is just freakin BUTTER.

As with every new or revised suspension component, you need to familiarize yourself with the limits of each adjustment. Start by taking ALL the adjustments out of it, setting them at zero. Ride and observe. What is the ride like in all aspects? Pick one adjustment and max it. Ride and observe. Then, zero that one, pick another, and max it. Ride and observe. You will now know what each adjustment does and what the range is, and you will get a better idea of what you need to do to solve a particular problem.

I never feel my fork bottom at all, but my tell tale (zip tie on the leg) shows that I am using ALL of the travel even on moderate terrain. The real problem is that I am using it far too easily. You only want it to max when it really counts; on the real rough stuff.


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

Well that makes sence. My fork is the same 100mm.I did not really add any rebound and I have the fork set to the stiffer side of adjustment. It makes sense that If the rebound is too quick that the front end might be very busy. I came from the old rockshocks with elastimer bumpers that you could swap so this is my firs real quality fork.
I like the setting it has now though my sag is about 40mm instead of 15-20 though. I will have to add the X firm ride kit when it gets in, I will then have to change the dampening as well. My previouse cheaper fork, though not the quality probubly by default took alot of the guess work out of the ride.

I cant wait till I do get it dialed in and hope your patient with me on any advise you can give. 
Steve


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Pish & Tosh;

You keep asking and we'll keep blathering. You are correct that more capability means more work. However it is worth it when everything falls into place. For me, the sag adjustment is a waste of time. Stiction keeps it high but then when I ride it mushes out. The preload I added has only made the situation bearable. It has not corrected it. Winter snow riding has meant that it is far less of an issue, but when the pace picks up again in the Spring/Summer, I'll be wanting that new (?????sometime????) XXFirm boinger for sure. It aint ready yet, though! 

"Not as fast as I had hoped" was what Mr. Manitou told me.


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

I spoke with the head engineer with Hayes and he said a couple months. He told to contact him again via the email he sent me in a couple of months for a kit. I'll keep you informed on what happends


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## johnd663 (Jun 28, 2007)

*XXXXXXXXX firm*

I am 6.5 and 230 and have these on a 5 inch FS 29er. They are shocking for clydes and are sh*tting me to tears. I have changed the spring to extra firm with minimal difference. Tried different weight oil (heavier) - just lost rebound damping range. I have to run 110- 120 psi to try and get them to stop diving and that is with the ABS lever around 3/4 on (a few clicks from firmest). The additional compression dampening causes the fork to fell notchy and loose suppleness and smoothness of travel. I cant get sag and ride these forks without diving and cant get sag with all the air pressure required to hold up the front end. This is the third set of Manitous I have had over the years and have never got any of them to perform. I have spoken to Manitou here in OZ and they say for a big bloke this is the sacrifice you need to make - heaps of air pressure and heaps of compression (and it rides like a brick). Now with Fox forks I require some aftermarket tuning to get performance but then they are great. Rock Shox are infinately adjustable (+ and -) as are Marzocchi but they suffer from other issues. I will be getting some White Brothers Loops soon to try. I have found a place that will do a custom spring to replace the x frim but this is just nuts.
Please Manitou if there is something you can do to assist anyone over 95 kgs - let us know. These are heading for the bin - seriously I cant ride them and have not enjoyed a ride for the past 4 months (would rather ride my roadie or sit in front of the TV). I havent had the money to upgrade - so stuck with them.
HELP


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Easy John;

THEY HEAR US. I just got a response from my contact and he said the delay stems from them doing a lot of parallel re-engineering of other aspects of the system. The bottom line will be FAR more pieces available to tailor the fork to suit more wide ranging needs. The downside is that it will take a little longer. At least for us in the northern hemisphere, that means by Spring we should have some new bits. Sorry for those down under....

If you've got the dough to buy 2-3-4 forks, go for it. As it is, the bike is not unrideable, just not ideal. You adapt and overcome and ride on. That's all. In the mean time, you should do my preload modification. It really did help.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Trailmaker - So they are doing a full update to the fork it sounds like? I have to say that mine still is performing wonderfully and as I am losing more weight I am finding it more and more compliant. Guess they just built them initially for the lower weight race rider?!


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

gregnash;8992545 i have to say that mine still is performing wonderfully and as i am losing more weight i am finding it more and more compliant. [/quote said:


> +2...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice O-ring...this is average travel for my Clyde Ride on rocky, rooty, sandy, muddy Single Track and some asphalt in between...see previous posts&#8230;


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Well...

We can't complain we are not getting full travel like some other brands! I'm "patiently" waiting for this upgrade. Then I will have to do the same to the rear, as the RP23 is no better, as previously mentioned.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Well...
> 
> We can't complain we are not getting full travel like some other brands! I'm "patiently" waiting for this upgrade. Then I will have to do the same to the rear, as the RP23 is no better, as previously mentioned.


As skills increase and my riding weight comes down, the rider to maintenance ratio is working more and more in my favor so I find myself wanting that new squishy to reward myself for all that Trail time&#8230;maybe one day when the right deal comes along!?!

BTW, anybody know when Manitou is going to have the taper steer tube on the market??? Can't seem to find one&#8230;


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## johnd663 (Jun 28, 2007)

*get it off my chest*



TrailMaker said:


> Easy John;
> 
> THEY HEAR US. I just got a response from my contact and he said the delay stems from them doing a lot of parallel re-engineering of other aspects of the system. The bottom line will be FAR more pieces available to tailor the fork to suit more wide ranging needs. The downside is that it will take a little longer. At least for us in the northern hemisphere, that means by Spring we should have some new bits. Sorry for those down under....
> 
> If you've got the dough to buy 2-3-4 forks, go for it. As it is, the bike is not unrideable, just not ideal. You adapt and overcome and ride on. That's all. In the mean time, you should do my preload modification. It really did help.


Needed to get that out - thanks. Still I wont be waiting around for the necessary upgrades to make there way down under. They are the worst forks i have ever owned.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Think that is about the same amount of travel I am getting. Seems like slight adjustments (individual PSI) can make quite a difference as last time I rode I went from 55psi to what looked like 58psi and it felt quite different.

I will have to post up a pic of my Inbred with the Tower... got to love it.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I agree. The air pressure is not very linear. You can add, and add, and add, and still have to much dive, and then in a very short window, the fork response gets very spiky and harsh. I have noticed this same thing, and I think this is another aspect of the spring being too soft. Again, it is the spring's job to hold up the rider weight, and if you have to rely too much on the air to compensate, you are outside the sweet spot for that spring. I've just taken to riding mine soft and dealing with it. Some things I cant ride right now because of that, but I'll make do until the heavier spring is available.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

FANFARE PLEASE!!!!!!!

Ring out the bells, the springs are here! Well, They're coming. I got an email this afternoon that told me the new springs are winging their way across the pacific as I type this and I may have one in my grubby little hands by next week. I know I should have just kept my mouth shut and waited till I actually had it in hand, on bike, and trail tested... but I just couldn't help it!!!!










Of course a full report will show up here just as soon as I can get it installed and tested. I'm hoping this is the puzzle piece that makes this into the excellent fork that I think it can be!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

SAWEET!!!! Just in time for riding season to really start getting underway! I am hoping that my crap respiratory garbage is gone by this time next week so I can ride next weekend (wife wont let it happen this weekend with a bronchial infection  )


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I got the spring late last week, along with a bottle of fork oil, and very explicit instructions on how to set it for different conditions, likely based on the dyno measurements that Mr. Manitou took from it before he sent it to me. I have not had time to fool with it yet, but I will definitely update when I have the full scoop.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

I've got a 2012 Manitou Tower on my Banshee and I think the fork is great. It's the first QR15 fork I've tried and feels as stiff as my Minute 29 with 20mm. through axle. Manitou tells me that the 2012 ships with firm spring fitted.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Love that they are making the Pro in Black as well now. If I had the option when I bought mine (and had my wheels built) I would have gone thru-axle for the front, not that the regular QR is not stiff just feel that it would be good for future proofing myself. So cant wait to get my bike out for a ride now that I have my new GEAX Gato on the front (have to go grab some tubes tomorrow).

Untitled by renofizz, on Flickr


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

To repeat, I have really been quite disappointed that I was not able to enjoy my RIP9 as much as I wanted to because this fork was not working well for me. That it was not was because of my size and the terrain I like to ride, and is not a reflection on the fork for most anyone else. I still think it is a great product and a great value. They just did not have the goods for big guys like me, and they knew it!

However, I could not be more impressed with my dealings with Manitou regarding this issue. The person who I have referred to as Mr. Manitou, the light at the end of my suspension tunnel for all these months, is actually Ed Kwaterski, who is the Chief Engineer for the Manitou Suspension Division of the Hayes Group. This is a guy who right off the bat took the time to personally involve himself in my situation, and has spent COUNTLESS hours sending technical e-mails, encouragement, status updates, diagrams & charts, parts & pieces, and sharing his knowledge with me so that I can better utilize this product. Just this afternoon we spent considerable time Share-Screening on Skype so that he could explain a very new and "secret" dyno chart (it is promised to a major magazine for upcoming publication, so I can't share it... yet) that shows the air pressures, oil levels, and damping curves for the super-new spring I am testing right now; what he has been referring to as the Clydesdale Coil.

I still have a hard time believing that someone placed so highly at a big company like this would take the time to do all of this. Yet, as he said this afternoon, you make customers one at a time, and lose them in droves. This guy backs that up! I hope the Hayes Group people see this. You've got a great asset there in Mr. Kwaterski!!!

I have finally installed the spring. Unfortunately, I do not possess a graduated cylinder to properly measure the air piston oil level, and that is a rather critical part of tuning the action of the fork. The secret graph that he sent me plots out the various rates for the Clydesdale Coil; lines for different air pressures, and the effect of differing oil levels on each one as well. They have tested and done damping curve graphs for pressure up to 190psi (110 is the published max for the Pro with the stock Firm spring). The results are very interesting and in some ways very counter intuitive. While they have not done any durability testing at the higher pressures (I guess I will be doing that!), they do indeed know how to tune for them. When I get the graduated cylinders that I've ordered, I will be testing different oil levels and will report back.

So, I have the new Clydesdale Coil installed with who knows what oil level. I have removed the longer preload rod that Mr. Manitou sent me, and also the thicker spring base washer I added for further preload on the X-firm spring (10mm total extra preload). I am back to a stock setup (excepting the oil level). I can report that my first ride was spent not really thinking about the fork at all, and that is likely the best thing that can be said. I did not attempt any really gnarly terrain because frankly I am in atrocious shape! However, it is clear that the spring is a vast improvement. I was riding with the Compression at half mast, which is where you would ideally like to have it, instead of nearly locked as I had it previously. While I am still using most of the travel, the rate is much more progressive and I am not getting pitched forward constantly because "there is nothing there."

Conversely, I find it very interesting that I have far surpassed air pressures that previously would have spiked the fork action to rock hard. One thing I have learned is that the spring rates need to be balanced, so the stiffer coil requires a commensurate rise in air pressure to counter it in this "series" type of spring arrangement. What this suggests is that since the old X-firm was anything but for my size, the air levels required to keep the front end up messed up the entire relationship. With this new spring, I very quickly shot past my old denture rattling max of 100psi and finally decided to give 130 a go. Not bad, but I can see that there is more room yet, and that it may indeed improve for me further with more air. What will be critical at this stage is to be able to tune those oil levels properly, and they are just as important a part of the symbiotic spring relationship as anything else.

So, great divides spanned, but more tuning yet to come. In the end us big guys will be able to save the $300 we'd spend with that Big Company, give our business to Manitou - a company that really brings it - and get a great riding fork!

Stay tuned.........................


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Just a quick report to say that I rode my same favored rough techy terrain today with 140psi in the fork. No other changes. The forks action is really coming into range for me with 140 in it. I noticed a definite firming of the action, but it never felt harsh at all. In fact, I really didn't even notice it, even less than last time at 130. I find it a little interesting that my tell-tale says that I am still using most of the fork's travel, and yet it does not bottom (never has, that I could feel) and still feels bottomless. The action is still very smooth; with a slight increase in resistance to compressing, yet no harshness or spikey nature at all. I may want to give it just a tad more rebound control to keep it from getting "springy", but otherwise I think I am very close.

The entire time I have been creeping up on the perfect fork setup, I have been concerned with the rear. The Fox RP23 shock is little better than the stock Tower fork for my size, for all the same reasons, and I was anticipating it getting even worse as the fork firmed up and came into the groove. Quite interestingly, I'm not sure my fears are playing out that way. The shock seemed to be doing pretty good, as if the added firmness in the front was taking pressure off the rear somehow. I anticipated the reverse of that. We'll see.

I will try 150 and above in the fork next time out. I'm in such atrocious shape that I find it hard just to keep moving on my favored rough rooty rocky terrain, let alone have the brain power to think about tuning this thing. Thanks again, Manitou!

Stay tuned...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

So I finally got the bike out this weekend for more than a gravel path ride.. Took the wife up yesterday on my normal trail (her first ever single track ride) and the fork did great. However, I seem to have developed a slight clunk on the lower end of the right leg when the fork is compressed. It almost sounded as though the spring was shifting a bit inside the leg.

Anyone experiencing this? I will check again tonight to make sure I am not imagining things, could have just been a weird setting too where I was inbetween clicks on the lockout.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

If it is a Tower, the spring is in the left leg (as you sit on the seat). The damping is on the right. I'd be surprised if the spring would shift or touch anything much, since it is held by the plastic extension rod on top and the alloy extension rod on the bottom. Might be time to pull it apart and have a look. Mine has been flawless in that regard.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

gregnash said:


> However, I seem to have developed a slight clunk on the lower end of the right leg when the fork is compressed. It almost sounded as though the spring was shifting a bit inside the leg.
> 
> Anyone experiencing this?


What your hearing is what's refered to as the audible click. It's the ABS+ shims bypassing excess fluid/pressure...happens most every ride for me, so much so that I don't even hear it anymore...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

zenkem said:


> What your hearing is what's refered to as the audible click. It's the ABS+ shims bypassing excess fluid/pressure...happens most every ride for me, so much so that I don't even hear it anymore...


See now I have heard the "whoosh-click" sound when I get some serious compression on the fork but this was different.. At first I thought my stem had come loose because it sounded like the shifting noise you get in the stem/headset/fork when it is not tightened properly but was not able to replicate the sound when moving the fork independent of the frame.

I got to play with it when I get home today... thankfully it is a short day because waterheater is getting replaced!:madman:


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## stevejill91 (Jan 11, 2012)

Trailmaker, 
I agree with your statement about the Hayes group. Ed Waterski knows what customer care is. He contacted me 3 months after a promise to send out an XX film spring and sure enough he did. It was unexpected for sure. Their whole team rocks as far as I am concerned. If by chance he checks up on posts like these ( thank Ed for standing behind your product and caring for the customer even though it was behind what most would do). 
Anyhow I've played a little with the spring and like was mentions I will have to make adjustments to the air pressure. 
If it would ever stop raining so they can open up the trails to ride.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

He DOES read this stuff. He knew of my review of the fork, and I made him aware of this thread. I think he knows he is doing a good job. It's his superiors that need to know that!

I'm off this morning to try even more air in the fork. I am very interested to see where the upper limit of pressure is for my size, and how it effects the action of the fork when I get there.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Let us know how things go Trailmaker... I am off tomorrow morning to get some saddle time in. First race is next weekend and the only real saddle time I have had is commuting back and forth to work on my Kona Jake (6 miles round trip) plus whatever errands I run on it. It will be nice to get on the dirt again and think I am going to stuff a few things in my camelbak (no bladder) and play with some settings while I am up there. My weight has stabilized right around 187# (starting at 235# almost two years ago) so I know I need to make some adjustments to the fork before the race. Right now I believe I am running it about 55psi with the Firm Spring and debating if I want to stick here and play with it a bit, do a shim stack tune, jump up to the X-Firm spring, or some combination.

All-in-all I have been very impressed with my dealings with different techs through Hayes/Manitou and will use them with my next bike build (thinking a Titus Rockstar 29er, Manitou Tower Pro 100mm, Manitou Swinger, Sun Ringle Black Flag Expert in gold, Hayes Stroker Trails, and the rest from Answer where I can).

Ed, if you are reading this, you got another loyal customer and I highly recommend your company to a lot of people.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Update;

I think I have found my limit. I tried 150 this morning, and it was slightly too firm for my liking. I must point out that it did NOT make the fork harsh at all, but was just a tad less compliant and "noisy" than I would like. The action of the fork was still smooth and well damped. I put in a little more rebound but that did not mitigate it... if I went the right way. I marked my rebound range on the bottom of the fork leg with a scratch awl, but did not mark it for which direction +/- is. I need to confirm I went the right way, I guess.

In any event, I went back to 140 and liked it better. If I were doing more severe downhill action, I would probably like the 150 just fine, but for normal cruising it was a bit firm and made rough terrain (rocks, roots, creek crossings) more pronounced than I would have liked. Once I confirm my rebound settings and make sure that more rebound does not smooth out the 150psi setting, I'll go back to 140 and then reset the air piston oil levels and begin the process of tuning that.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Well went out for an actual trail ride this morning and now I remember why I love this fork so much. I added some air (bumped from 60 to 75psi) and while the fork is firm it was still incredibly compliant and smooth feeling. This fork coupled with my tire setup (GEAX Gato f and Saguaro r) made for an almost ride on rails feeling. The Gato clung to the ground like there was no tomorrow and under braking I felt absolutely no brake dive. 

Since this was my first outting in a while I decide that I would just let the bike do the work and trust where I was pointing it and I was not disappointed. Tracking was incredible and rebound over rocks and everything was incredibly smooth. Finally hit the final "jump" at the end of the trail with some serious speed behind me and the fork just ate up the landing making it feel like there was an infinite amount of travel. 

I am seriously excited to race this coming weekend with this fork and hope there are some opportunities for me to really push the fork. I have developed a slight "clunk" somewhere in either the fork or the headset, I have a furlough day on Tuesday and plan to ride that morning in hopes to determine where it is coming from (think my headset may be a little loose).


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## idinomac (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi guys,Thank-you for doing this post. I have been reading this post for about 5 weeks now and I think I have had my 2012 Tower Pro for about four weeks now. it's the 100mm with the taperd steer and 15mm QR. I have this fork on my 2012 Salsa Spearfish 1.

I had read this post before I got my fork and read the part where someone said that Manitou was going to change to a stiffer spring for the stock Tower fork,so I bought one. when I put on my bike I checked the psi in the fork it was set at 100psi with-out even riding I set the rebound at the 10% from full fast and pushed down on the fork and my first thought was wow this fork is not going to be stiff enough for me,but I did try it at that setting and I did not like it so I put it up to 110psi and found that I like the ABS set at about 3 o'clock I think that was two (2) clicks from full lock-out and that is about as sweet as it's going to get for now but it's not my sweet spot.

I'm only 170lbs with my gear on. I live in Northern MN. and it's rooty and rocky up here I want this fork to be a little stiffer, I have four rides on this fork so far. I do 24 hour racing and I like the remote lock-out so I have one ride on the MILO remote L/O but when I put the L/O on I just went about 2 or 3 clicks from full open on the ABS. 

TrailMaker, I am thinking about trying to go a few more clicks towards lock-out. also I feel that if I could ramp the psi up to 120 to 130 it would be right on, do you think I should not go over the 110psi and just get a firmer spring. If I incress the psi in the fork than that is the easy way but than what are the chances of damaging the fork and what would it damage? and as I'm wrighting this I'm thinking I should call Manitou becuse I'll be using it for 24hr racing and it might have more heat.

+1 to the C/S over at Manitou.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

idinomac said:


> Hi guys,Thank-you for doing this post. I have been reading this post for about 5 weeks now and I think I have had my 2012 Tower Pro for about four weeks now. it's the 100mm with the taperd steer and 15mm QR. I have this fork on my 2012 Salsa Spearfish 1.
> 
> I had read this post before I got my fork and read the part where someone said that Manitou was going to change to a stiffer spring for the stock Tower fork,so I bought one. when I put on my bike I checked the psi in the fork it was set at 100psi with-out even riding I set the rebound at the 10% from full fast and pushed down on the fork and my first thought was wow this fork is not going to be stiff enough for me,but I did try it at that setting and I did not like it so I put it up to 110psi and found that I like the ABS set at about 3 o'clock I think that was two (2) clicks from full lock-out and that is about as sweet as it's going to get for now but it's not my sweet spot.
> 
> ...


I was told by Manitou tech. that my 2012 Tower Pro (120mm.) came with a firm spring. I also have a 2010 Minute 29 (also 120mm.) At that time all forks were shipped with a medium spring. My LBS ordered the fork for me and I asked for a firm spring to be sent out with the fork. I weigh about 220lbs. and called Manitou for their recommendation on the spring. The answer was a firm. I am a little surprised that at 170lbs. you are unable to get the specified sag within the pressure limit of the fork. With the firm spring in both my forks I need no more than 100 to 110psi. Remember I'm 220lbs. I get full travel and I barely bottom out. It may be that your 100mm. fork has a medium spring. Call Manitou and ask. The springs are color coded and you may prefer a firm.

I also wanted to comment that the published pressure limit in my Minute 29 manual is 150psi. In 2011 the Minute 29 became known as a Tower and they reduced the pressure limit to 110psi. Probably to encourage riders to use the correct spring with less ramp up due to higher pressure and therefore a better feeling, more linear fork. I have compared the parts list of the 2010 Minute and 2011 Tower and they are identical. Also the 2012 Tower is essentially the same fork except for the obvious changes (QR15, tapered steerer and redesigned casting) so I doubt upping the pressure will damage the fork. However, I certainly think the fork feels better with the correct spring.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah I have to agree that the correct spring will make a great change. I run about 185# out of the shower and the medium spring was OK with about 100-120psi in it. After upping to the FIRM spring I am now right at 75psi and feel that this is a good pressure with about 15% sag and rebound. I hit a pretty major jump today in the last leg of the ride and the fork just ate up the landing, I thought that I would get squirrely or something. Over the course of the ride I hit some baby heads, some 12" steps, a couple of rock shoots, and then that jump, overall it performed stellar.

Idinomac - I would keep playing with the pressure. If you are 170#s you should be within the range of the medium spring. However, when I talked to the techs they said that basically you could up the spring rate and then you would just compensate with lowering the pressure. I think having my LBS rebuild the fork with the firm spring cost me about $100 with the purchase of the spring and only that much because they had to run around town to find motorcycle oil to fill the fork.

Oh and from what I have read, the Tower Pro comes with the Firm Spring for the 2013 models, the 2011 (what I have) and 2012 models have the Medium Spring.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

gregnash said:


> Oh and from what I have read, the Tower Pro comes with the Firm Spring for the 2013 models, the 2011 (what I have) and 2012 models have the Medium Spring.


 2013 models! Is there such a thing at this point. I got my Tower Pro maybe a month ago and it has a firm spring. I assume it's a 2012.


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## idinomac (Apr 5, 2009)

Yeah,it's so close to where I want it. I like a stiffer platform most of the time,I don't have big down hills here. The way it is set now I like on the short 20 mile rides, I feel that all I need is another 10 to 20 psi and I'll be good to go. I will try it tomorrow and get back to guys,thanks. also I love the way this bike rides with this TST and 15mm QR the bike stays on track through the ruff stuff I can motor through it compared to the HT 29er with SST and 9mm QR Rock Shox Reba Race set at 100mm


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ronnie said:


> 2013 models! Is there such a thing at this point. I got my Tower Pro maybe a month ago and it has a firm spring. I assume it's a 2012.


Yeah the ones they are starting to sell now I believe they consider the '13 models, the '12 models were released at Interbike in '11. Think of it like buying a new car, if it is close to the end of the year then it is considered the next model year.:thumbsup:


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

What you're really seeing is Manitou playing catch up. They've been a bit behind the curve on features and performance, so they are pushing product out early in an attempt to get up to speed. That's my guess. Whatever the reason, it is great to see them blasting out some great bits. I'd sure love to have that 15QR. I've not flatted yet in over a year of riding this Niner, but when I do the 20TA will be a pain to deal with out in the woods.

In terms of springing, you have to first know which platform you have. I do not remember the names, but one of them has air and coil in parallel (air & coil together in the same chamber) and one is in series (air & coil separated as two distinct chambers in the same housing - MARS Air?). The two react very differently in many respects.

In the case of the Tower, the springs are in series, working in conjunction and also against each other. As such, it is important to have a relative balance between the two in terms of rate. As far as I can remember, I had the medium spring at first, and it was ridiculous. I got the firm through my LBS, neither of us being aware of the X-firm version at the time. I subsequently found out about the X-firm and got it. None of these were stiff enough. I had to add a lot of air to try and compensate, but the ride got extremely rough. With Ed's guidance I have learned how this Coil/Air-in-Series system works together, and now I understand why it performed the way it did. 

If you look at the dyno graphs of the XX-Firm spring you can really see various levels of air and oil in action. It's a great tool for wrapping your head around this. You are riding on the coil for the first portion of the travel to get that nice cush feel on small bump compliance. The graph lines start up at about 35-40* angle depending on the air pressure, and then at about 30% of the travel, the lines level off a bit. This is the point where the coil spring begins to overcome the air pressure and truly activate the air piston. The resistance and rate then levels off because the two springs in series are softer than either by itself. The coil spring has done most of its work in the first half of the travel, and as you pass 50% travel and near full compression, the air takes a progressively more prominent roll and ramps up the rate, considerably in the last 20% of the travel.

If the coil is too soft, and you compensate with more air, you get a harsher ride because air does not compress in a linear fashion. This explains the very spikey nature of my fork with the softer coils. I would blow through the coil very quickly, and then hit the air which would make the rate rise far too quickly, making the graph very very non-linear. Once you get to where the coil and air are working in a balanced state (the XX-firm for me), then you can tune the rate further with oil levels in the air piston chamber.

Although I was told they have done no durability testing at the higher pressures, you will not hurt the fork over 110psi. They have graphed the Clydesdale Coil up to 190. The fact that I am getting real happy at "only" 140 tells me that it should work just fine for a long time. I can say that the limit for the X-firm for me was about 105. The fork just got really rude above that level. If you need that much air with your softer coil spring (more accurately, if your air spring rate is far higher than your coil spring rate), you probably need the next stiffer coil because the coil/air rates are not in balance with each other and the ride will suffer.

I find it interesting that with the x-firm I was running about 100psi. If I went just 5 pounds more, it got really rough and non resilient when I would blow through the coil and the air "spring" was activated. Yet, with the XX-firm, I was liking 140 quite a lot, but a jump all the way to 150 - while making it noticeably firmer - did not produce this huge spike. I take that to mean I have the right coil that will balance the right pressure for my size and style while maintaining some linearity in the curve. If you get that big spike with only a small pressure change, this might be the ultimate signal that you need the next firmer spring.

As mentioned, my next area of discovery is with air piston oil level. I have no clue what is there now, as I just winged it (spilled it on my shoes and just dumped a little Mobil 1 in there!). I now have a graduated cylinder and Ed sent me some real Manitou oil. I am going to go back to the stock oil level of 7cc (ML). I have the graphs for up to 15cc of oil, and it is interesting to see the effect of the oil on the overall travel. Essentially, if you need a little bit more mid travel compression damping, and/or end of travel ramp up in bottoming resistance, add more oil instead of air. The oil will maintain a more linear reaction, where air will be exponential and you will likely lose compliance.

This is neat stuff.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

LOL... we never realized we were going to get a physics lesson when we purchased a mtb'ing fork now did we!! It is interesting because I have first hand experience with the spike in compliance that TrailMaker is talking about. Something as slight as the 5psi in the medium spring could result in a tooth-jarring ride with little to no compliance over small trail chatter. Yet now that I have jumped up to the Firm spring (remember I am avg 185# out of the shower and I dont ride with a water pack, just two bottles so probably 190ish with gear) I was able to run 75psi yesterday and feel what seemed to be a great balance between responsiveness, compliance over small trail chatter, yet still have the head to eat up big hits like it was nothing.

I am going out again tomorrow morning (yeah for furlough days) and I will see about taking the GoPro with me and maybe setup something for that end jump. While it is nothing big, you do drop down before you hit the top of the jump and there is a large enough area that you can gain a good amount of speed prior to hitting it. I will see if I can rate my "feeling" of the forks compliance on the hit at 55psi, 65psi, and 75psi (and if there is enough time I will try 5psi increments).


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Yeh, it has been quite a journey. On the one hand it has been very disappointing in that it has muted my ability to enjoy my bike, but on the other hand, it has been a great learning experience. It has also been great to discover a company that cares. I'm quite gratified with that part of it.

I'm glad you're in on this Greg. Our experiences are running in parallel for the most part, lending validity to our findings. That is not only good for we users, but is also good for Manitou. That kind of feedback you just can't buy, nor can you expect it from what amounts to an abbreviated and narrow testing regime. As Ed related to me, he would rather focus on the end user than what their testers feel is needed. Of course they are an important cog in the machine, but again he added that they are all pro athletes and not necessarily representative of the general riding public. They certainly do not have an 240lb'ers on staff!

I did not understand the relationship of the air and coil springing before, but it is all quite logical now that I've had that window opened for me. Everyone loves the old coil springs for the smooth linear motion, but let's face it; metal is heavy. Air springing is a great way to save weight, for sure. The problem is that air compresses in a very progressive fashion, and taming that has been difficult. Using the supple nature of a coil with the progressive resistance to compression of the air is a great way to deal with suspension motion, as you get the best of both worlds.

One thing I can say for sure is that this is one of the plushest forks I have ever ridden. Now that the spring rates are coming into focus for me, the entire package is starting to perform EXACTLY as I had wished. It is still entirely plush for small/medium hit compliance, but the progressive resistance to diving toward bottom is much better controlled.

I'm gettin happy here. Now I need to RIDE MORE!!!!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Well guys went out and did my little review. Now I just need time to edit the video from the GoPro. 
Saving this spot for the video...
For the time being here is the GPS from Strava for the ride. 




And here is a map of Ash Canyon Trail system

Ash Canyon Trail Map by Jeff Moser / BikeCarson.com, on Flickr


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## idinomac (Apr 5, 2009)

Well I'm not a clydes but I posted here becuse even at my weight I think this fork to too soft. I did talk to Randy at Manitou I told him that I just put 130 psi in the fork & I like it better but he told me that in doing that It might be hard on the seals and I might blow them out. he also said I should have the firm spring in mine and that I would want to go with an xtra firm and that would make sense being that you guys are not happy with the xtra firm springs.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Ha!

I've got an extra firm I have no use for. Low mileage! In fact, I have a medium and a firm too! I don't think you are going to hurt the fork at 130, given that most manufacturers build in some safety margin. I've been over 110 on mine for a long time with no issues. I'm at 140 now with the XX/F spring. Based on what I've learned, you may indeed like the next spring up the line, and you may rate it with the amount of air you feel you need now.

The real key I think is the action. If the fork remains plush at such a pressure as you have now, then you might be in a good window. If you get a motion that allows the fork to blow through the first half of the travel very easily, and you get a real Jekyll & Hyde spikey nature when you add a little more air to compensate for that, then I'd say you might benefit from the next spring.

If the two springs are well balanced to each other and your riding style, they should feel pretty linear in their combined action, meaning you should not feel any noticeable change in the action of the fork from top to bottom. The fork should feel plush on small bump compliance, but smoothly firm up enough after mid stroke to keep the nose up. If it is soggy at the top end and gets rough the deeper you go, that suggests air and coil out of balance to each other, and a spring change would likely be in order.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

See now I am 6' tall and 185# and I feel that the Firm spring is working fine for me. The Medium was ok but needed a bit to much pressure for my liking and, as Trailmaker stated before, there was a spike in how things responded if you went to high with the pressure. Usually the spike was in a very small increment so this is where the next step up spring worked. If you are over 200# then I would definitely recommend the X-Firm if not the new XX-Firm.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok the video did not work out like I had planned it. I need to change the vantage point of the camera and then take a tripod with me or have a friend along to do the end part. It ended up just looking like a trail ride once I finally watched most of the footage. 

I will give it a shot again next weekend (this weekend is a race)
And for those wondering.. if you expand the map the route I took was JackRabbit (green) > Deer Run (red) > Drop to FireRoad at Shade Tree/Tree of Angst (light yellow) > Creek Trail Begins (purple) > Connector (white) > Back down Deer Run (red) > 7 Step (light blue) > Vicee (purple) > to JackRabbit (green). There is an initial part in there that is from my house to the TH at JackRabbit.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok so video review or anything but did my first XC race Saturday (see Strava below).

So I ran the fork at 65PSI and tires at 28/30 (f/r) and the course that I ran is actually mostly motocross stuff. The race was the PineNut Cracker, which is part of the Sierra Cup MTB Series (couple other guys from the forums did it as well). This is desert riding so you get everything from loose over hard (good majority of the course), loose, sand pits, and some good rocky/techy dissents. This was my first time riding the course so I did not know what to expect to I set the lock-out at about halfway through and left it there the entire race.

This course made you work for just about everything, there were a couple of very steep climbs that just about required you to get off and walk the bike up. There were more than a few sections that were super loose and one that I actually scratched on because I went wide (thinking it was burmed) and just about lost the bike when the edge gave way.

Throughout the entire race the bike went where I was point it. The fork never gave me any brake dive nor did it give me any reason to not trust where I had pointed it. No matter what I threw at the fork it seemed to just eat everything up, the compliance on the smaller hits was enough that I could leave my arms pretty ridged and didn't get a tooth jarring ride with the bigger stuff still tossing me around a bit but never leaving me feel like I was hating my life. The very end/start of the course was a good amount of whoop-dee-dos and I actually saw the fork do a hell of a lot better than some other peoples forks (during the initial warm-up run, when I came through there was no one around me or at least in front of me).

There was one VERY rocky descent about 3/4 through the course that I actually saw another rider crash on (older guy doing the animal class) and while his full suspension had some trouble with it the Tower just blew through the area (until I stopped to check on him) and never gave me a reason not to trust it or to be apprehensive. I really wish I had taken the GoPro now as this course would have definitely been a great review course for the fork. Might just have to take a ride out there and attempt to reride the entire course.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Interesting Notes*

Hey;

I have not had the time to fool around and get the oil levels redone on my fork, but I have continued to ride it happily at 140psi. I am finding many aspects of the fork's performance coming into much sharper focus with the proper spring rate. I came down a seldom ridden but somewhat often hiked trail the other day with a lot of sharp dips and forest carpet crags (places where the weave of small roots and decaying leaf matter masks dips and trenches). I was getting far too much front dive under those conditions, and so I reached down for another click of compression damping. Immediately noticeable results, where before the action of the damping circuit was very non linear; not doing a whole lot as I licked through the range until suddenly it would go hard. 1 click made a noticeable improvement and kept the nose up while still maintaining the plush ride and full travel.

Unfortunately, I blew out my freewheel on the same ride :madmax:, so I won't be riding the Niner for a few days. Fortunately, the LBS has a replacement (Shimano) in stock!


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## Jarlaxle (Feb 25, 2012)

Great thread! I have recently decided I want to go to 120mm on my Tallboy but dont have a big budget. Just started doing research on forks. I'm 6'4", 235lbs and the manitou with xx springs sounds perfect. 

Just want to make sure I understand, I purchase the current 29/120 fork and then I call customer service to request the xx spring and install it myself?

Thanks again for a great thread, really helped me out.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Jarlaxle said:


> Just want to make sure I understand, I purchase the current 29/120 fork and then I call customer service to request the xx spring and install it myself


Where do you intend buying the fork? The last Manitou fork that I changed the spring on was my Minute 29. I ordered it from a local LBS that I always deal with and got a nice discount. I asked them to order the spring together with the fork. They arrived together about a week later.

Do you have the ability to change the spring yourself? It's not difficult and there is an online service manual. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, I'm sure a bike shop could do it for you.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Yep;

Give your LBS a shot on the whole deal. They can be surprisingly competitive at times. The spring kit is cheap. Around $25. Besides, I think Manitou does not encourage direct sales, preferring to develop support for LBS'. I've gotten all my many  spring kits that way, with the exception of this just released XX/F spring. The spring is very easy to change. If you do all of your own work already, you won't have a problem. The Manitou manual is a bit confusing and also needs updating rather badly, but it will get you through. I can guide you through it if you'd like. God knows I've been in there enough times!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> Yep;
> 
> Give your LBS a shot on the whole deal. They can be surprisingly competitive at times. The spring kit is cheap. Around $25. Besides, I think Manitou does not encourage direct sales, preferring to develop support for LBS'. I've gotten all my many  spring kits that way, with the exception of this just released XX/F spring. The spring is very easy to change. If you do all of your own work already, you won't have a problem. The Manitou manual is a bit confusing and also needs updating rather badly, but it will get you through. I can guide you through it if you'd like. God knows I've been in there enough times!


LOL.. yeah Trailmaker I think you need to rewrite the manual for them! Do you know if they shim stack tuning that there is a write-up on for the Minute 29 is still pertinent for the Towers? Haven't had the chance to ride since the race and really itching to get out there. Looks like I am signing up for the next race in the series though and it will be something similar trackwise from what I hear.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

gregnash said:


> LOL.. yeah Trailmaker I think you need to rewrite the manual for them! Do you know if they shim stack tuning that there is a write-up on for the Minute 29 is still pertinent for the Towers?


That's a good question;

I think the earlier (pre 2013) stuff is at least similar, if not the same. I believe they have used the same basic architecture for a while. I've never fooled with the damping side yet. I'm not sure I'm going to need to with the success I have had just with the spring side. The "trail" damping curves are pretty well chosen, I'd say. Moderate platform early (although I don't really "notice" it) and progressive ramp up late. I might have a go with one of the "Linear Family" that uses little-to-no platform and is like it says mostly straight linear/progressive in compression resistance. All of these curves are variable/tunable with different shim stack combinations, and Manitou now offers an extremely comprehensive shim kit.

I still need the new freewheel first!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

What wheels do you have? And aren't your wheels pretty new? Damn you are hard on your equipment!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Pfff....

Less than a year. Shimano FH-M525 hub. I've never had a problem with a wheel like that before, except a Bontrager that didn't want to keep bearings in it. My WTB (Formula) hubs are worn to crap, no seals left, and still the freewheel works. This one started making noise after 6 months. Hopefully it is an aberration.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

yeah there are some shimano hubs that are known for blowing up pretty easily and the 525s really aren't made for a guy your size (let alone my size). Looks like it is time to upgrade to some heavier hubs, maybe Kings, Hadley, or something of the sort. I have Shimano M629s on mine (the 29er specific SLX hubs) and they have been stellar with my weight varying from 215 to current 187ish. Also, if you are in the market to build some yourself the hubs from BikeHubStore.com or Circus Monkey have gotten really good reviews.


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## Luv'n_29'n (Feb 17, 2012)

*There is now a Spring for Clydesdales*

I recently purchased the 2012 Tower Pro and could not find the extra-stiff spring in stock anywhere. So, I emailed Manitou and they responded the same day...to my surprise. They said the extra-stiff would not work for my 280lb girth, but they have a spring they just developed for people my size. They mailed it out and I am going to install it today.

I debated long and hard on which fork to buy...Reba, Float, Slide-29, or Tower Pro. I am very glad I chose the Tower Pro if for nothing other than the customer service.

This is only my second suspension fork and my first was a Dart 3 which recently took a turn for the worse...hence the new Tower Pro. The difference between the two is light years even without the correct spring installed. I can not wait till I get it out on the trail.

Thank you Manitou--I am now a customer for life.


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## Luv'n_29'n (Feb 17, 2012)

I just bought my 2012 Tower Pro on Ebay for $390. It was hte last one hte seller had and he gave me one heck of a discount. It arrived in all new packaging never opened and the seller is a Manitou dealer. I typically buy from the LBS but this time I had to cut my budget to be able to afford two new Free Agent BMX Team Race bikes for my boys through the dealer. Which ny the way I got through Free Agents RACER Program. Check it out if you have boys into BMX.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

To you Tower Pro owners:
When you have the fork locked out....is there a blow off that will give you some travel if you whack something hard enough?
And does it lock it out at full extension.....or mid travel?
Thanks


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## Luv'n_29'n (Feb 17, 2012)

*Yes, it does Blow Off*

Yes it does blow off. The higher the lockout setting the hard the hit it takes to "blow off." Even the full lock out seems to blow off.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

the mayor said:


> To you Tower Pro owners:
> When you have the fork locked out....is there a blow off that will give you some travel if you whack something hard enough?
> And does it lock it out at full extension.....or mid travel?
> Thanks


The lockout uses the rebound to prevent fluid flow. It almost completely prevents flow at the maximum setting but not completely. When I stand and bounce on the pedals in the lockout position there is a small amount of give so it's not like a rigid fork. It maybe moves a half inch or so. When riding/climbing in that position there is no way that there is enough force to compress the fork or allow bob. Theoretically if you sit on the bike for a while the small amount of flow will allow the fork to sag but while you are riding, the fork seems to remain at the fully extended position. It gets unweighted and extends and there is insufficient force to compress it other than a bigger hit.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Thanks for the replies.
I currently have a DT Swiss XCM 100 on my Lenz Lev. Love the fork for the Launch Control..which is a lock out that holds the fork down about 1/3 into the travel...and has an adjustable blow off that will automatically release it when you hit a big enough bump.

And I've had forks that did not budge when looked out....so if you had brain fade at the top of a descent....you were in for a rough ride.

But...I'm thinking about trying a 120 fork because I trail ride more that I race now.

And the glowing reviews or the Tower...along with low price...have me looking at getting one to try.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

As I have mentioned previously, the other springs I had were so soft that I resorted to locking the fork for really nasty rough steep downhills. How backwards is that? But, I had no choice. It was that or endo for sure. The fork does ride at the top of its travel when locked and it does compress. It is obviously not the ideal way to ride rough terrain, but it worked surprisingly well. Not really even a beating. I never use a front lockout otherwise. With the proper XX Firm "Clydesdale Coil" - and once I find the time to fool with the spring side oil levels - I'm confident I can dial it perfectly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFF FORK TOPIC - Greg Nash mentioned in a PM that he had been talking to a guy over at Hayes Brake, and gave me the guy's e-mail. I sent John Trusky (Warranty & Technical Support Coordinator) an e-mail looking for a master cylinder rod retaining washer and circlip for a set of Hayes Carbons I boinked in a crash (ripped the rod out and shattered the washer!). I had two of each in my mailbox TWO DAYS LATER. Two days, no charge, no questions asked, in my hand. Frankly, I find their CS unbelievable. Just amazing. This is a company working hard to earn our support. They've got mine!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great price, great performance, and unreal customer service. I'm not sure which is best of the three, but the CS is the most pleasing for me.

P.S. Mr. Manitou says go right ahead and run higher pressures in the fork. 130? No problem. They have springing curves charted up to 190psi, but with the right spring for your weight I can't imagine ANYONE ever needing nearly that much. At 240lbs myself, I have settled on 140psi. He also said he has informed his colleague Randy of that as well!


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> .
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OFF FORK TOPIC - Greg Nash mentioned in a PM that he had been talking to a guy over at Hayes Brake, and gave me the guy's e-mail. I sent John Trusky (Warranty & Technical Support Coordinator) an e-mail looking for a master cylinder rod retaining washer and circlip for a set of Hayes Carbons I boinked in a crash (ripped the rod out and shattered the washer!). I had two of each in my mailbox TWO DAYS LATER. Two days, no charge, no questions asked, in my hand. Frankly, I find their CS unbelievable. Just amazing. This is a company working hard to earn our support. They've got mine!
> ...


I would like to add my agreement. I have also only had stellar service from Manitou customer support. I've had their forks since 2004 and have always had any problem resolved, including a replacement of a Nixon IT(infinite travel adjust) which was a problematic design. Their CS and tech. people are always helpful and go the extra mile. As long as Manitou make a fork that fits my needs, I'll buy from them.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OFF FORK TOPIC - Greg Nash mentioned in a PM that he had been talking to a guy over at Hayes Brake, and gave me the guy's e-mail. I sent John Trusky (Warranty & Technical Support Coordinator) an e-mail looking for a master cylinder rod retaining washer and circlip for a set of Hayes Carbons I boinked in a crash (ripped the rod out and shattered the washer!). I had two of each in my mailbox TWO DAYS LATER. Two days, no charge, no questions asked, in my hand. Frankly, I find their CS unbelievable. Just amazing. This is a company working hard to earn our support. They've got mine!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Great price, great performance, and unreal customer service. I'm not sure which is best of the three, but the CS is the most pleasing for me.


Yup, can't reiterate this better. Seriously some of the most stellar CS I have ever had from a company. Always willing to talk thing through with you and get it fixed for you. This is the reason why my next bike will have all their components on it. I would rather spend the extra money and support them vs. someone like FOX or RS that will just blow you off. Ed and John are both stellar guys to talk with and the other support techs I have talked with are more than happy to share their experiences and how things might better work to suit your need.


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## Rubber Duck (Feb 24, 2012)

A quick heads up to anybody now interested in getting a Tower, JensonUSA has 100 and 120mm w/20mm axle and 100mm w/QR for $349. I'm so close to biting on this deal myself after reading about this fork on this thread.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

I'm struggling with the spring change on a brand new set of 2012 Tower Pro's

The compression rod screw (12mm not 10/11mm as in the service manual) is just spinning so I can't get the lowers

help!


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Big_n_Daft said:


> I'm struggling with the spring change on a brand new set of 2012 Tower Pro's
> 
> The compression rod screw (12mm not 10/11mm as in the service manual) is just spinning so I can't get the lowers
> 
> help!


I'm not sure what you're saying. It appears that you are correct that the bolt is 12mm. I just checked my fork. The service manual is generic (for all fork models) but the principle is the same. If you are attempting to loosen the bolt what is spinning? Have you stripped the head? I would suggest that you try an adjustable wrench if you don't have the correct size.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

I apply the (correct sized) spanner to the compression rod screw head and it just rotates merrily, no excessive force has been applied, it doesn't pull out

the manual implies it should extract easily

I can do the elements required for the other leg easily but this is supposed to be the easy one and it's not playing ball


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Big_n_Daft said:


> I apply the (correct sized) spanner to the compression rod screw head and it just rotates merrily, no excessive force has been applied, it doesn't pull out
> 
> the manual implies it should extract easily
> 
> I can do the elements required for the other leg easily but this is supposed to be the easy one and it's not playing ball


It's been a while since I last had one of these apart. My 2012 Tower Pro came with a firm spring but my 2010 Minute 29 came with a medium which I changed. I remember needing to have some air pressure in the fork, especially when installing the lowers. If you have let all the air out the compression rod is free to move/rotate. Try putting in some air pressure to keep it from moving. Let me know if that works.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

already tried that, and no change, still spinning, 100psi in there


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

also tried zero air, compression, stretching....

what am I missing?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Are you sure the bolt is not loose from the thread? Have you tried giving the fork lowers a tug? I think there is an "O"-ring on there that could be keeping the bolt in place. I have disassembled several Manitou forks in the past and never had a problem. I don't know what else to suggest other than contacting Manitou. Their tech. support might have more ideas. Those guys are great.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

yep tried to "tug" the lowers and no joy

I'll try the Manitou tech people, tomorrow's ride down the pan though

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Yes it's a 12. The manual is for older versions and needs updating, which they are aware of and are working on presently. It threads out of the bottom of the rod and then you have to give it a little tug and it comes out. That's really it. Here it all is;










This shows you all the doodads.

- Set the fork in a vise so that it is horizontal.
- Remove the small Allen screw that holds the rebound knob on the right (damping) leg, and remove the knob.
- Remove the 12mm bolt on the bottom of the left (spring) leg.
- Slide the lower leg assy down and give it a little tug to pull it past the seals. Lay it aside on a horizontal surface so that oil does not spill.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

It really is that simple. I always do it in my bench vice. It is a little intimidating the first time. The bolt on the bottom of the left leg does rest in a seal of some sort, and you have to pry or tug on it a little to pop it out Then you do have to tug on the lowers a little to ride them over the seals. From there it is pretty simple. If you want to, PM me and we can arrange to talk it over in detail. 

NO REASON to lose a ride over this. It takes me about 20 minutes, even removing the fork from the bike!


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

Trailmaker,
tried all what you have suggested again in a bench vice (Iwas using a bike stand) and it's not playing.

It does feel like the internals are rotating and that all I'm doing is spinning them around.


I have tried gettiing the lowers off (a 15mm QR is a great handhold) but no movement


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

There is indeed something that holds the bolt in the hole and you can sit there and spin it all day long and not know it has threaded out of the rod until you pull or pry on it and it pops out. I think the first time I did it, I did the sit & spin thing for a while until I used a little screwdriver to pry under the washer head of the bolt and it popped out. There should be nothing holding the threads together like thread locker or anything of the sort. Also, if you have the bolt spun out of the rod, even with the bolt still in place in the hole, the lowers should pull off.

Here's a trick. The bottom of that compression rod is serrated so that it grabs the bottom of the fork leg. That is to prevent the rod from spinning when bolt tension brings it in contact with the fork leg bottom, or to allow it to loosen. Lock on the head of the bolt with a pair of vise grips, turn anti-clockwise, and PULL OUT on the bolt at the same time. Hopefully this will jamb the serration into the leg and overcome any bind in the threads that are spinning the rod inside.

When you finally get it apart, test the bolt in the rod and see if there is any resistance to spinning clean and free, and remediate as necessary.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

forks horizontal in bench vise.... check
vise grips... check
spin anticlockwise whilst pulling out....... check

success..... nope


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

If you are having so much trouble getting the bolt out there is obviously something amiss, like possibly damaged threads. I've owned nothing but Manitou forks since about 2004 and never had a problem getting the lowers off.

I'd say it's time to talk to Manitou about a warranty repair. You'll have to send the fork in so have them fit the new spring at the same time.


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## Big_n_Daft (Feb 2, 2007)

I have eventually managed it, the method used was

remove all the air, including compressing air out

invert fork and press down on the steerer compressing the fork

12mm spanner, anti clockwise and hey presto

looking at the internals there is no "ratchet" to engage the bottom plastic fitting has a smooth base


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

The 12mm bolt threads into an aluminum rod that transfers up to the blue plastic spring preload rod. The plastic mushroom on that rod is just a spacer to hold the conical bottom out bumper up. it is that aluminum tube that is serrated on the bottom. Unless... they have re-designed it all.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

From Manitou Engineering -

_Hi John;

The problem is the very end of the comp rod has gotten compressed slightly on the bolt. The end was deformed slightly as it compressed against the bottom of the casting, and now the last thread binds on the bolt. So the posting is correct, the compression rod is indeed spinning. The easiest fix would be to have him contact us, and we can get the fork back here and we'll take care of it for him.

The best way to get these apart is to let the air out, turn the fork upside down, and compress it very hard with the goal of driving the inner leg into the rubber bottom-out bumper. This provides some resistance to rotation. Use an air wrench to remove the bolt while compressing the fork in this manner.

We have some fixes for this in process, which will include a means of accessing the comp rod from the top side so it can be held in place with a long Allen hex tool. We had some delays on implementation because of some other minor side effects we encountered. _

So you stumbled on the work-around yourself. Good intuition there!


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

hey guys i am 220lbs and just ordered the 2012 tower pro which if i read correctly comes with the firm spring, should order the xtra firm spring as well? thanks.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

ez5 said:


> hey guys i am 220lbs and just ordered the 2012 tower pro which if i read correctly comes with the firm spring, should order the xtra firm spring as well? thanks.


I would, for 20-25 bucks I'd switch back and forth and use the one you like better.. also when/if you ever sell it down the road it's a decent selling additive, or can fleabay the one you don't use...


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

what are they called? i cant seem to find any online retailers that sell them. i searched for manitou tower spring.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

ez5 said:


> what are they called? i cant seem to find any online retailers that sell them. i searched for manitou tower spring.


think this is only for the 100mm fork.. have to search for the 120...
Manitou Minute 29Er/Tower Spring Kit > Components > Forks > Spring & Ride kits | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

nice thanks, im using 100mm.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

ez5 said:


> hey guys i am 220lbs and just ordered the 2012 tower pro which if i read correctly comes with the firm spring, should order the xtra firm spring as well? thanks.


I've got a Minute 29 that came with a medium and I replaced it with a firm. I've also got a 2012 Tower Pro which I was told has a firm spring. I pump both of them to 100psi. and they feel the same so it must be a firm. I'm also 220lbs.

I've been quite happy with them as they are but I've wondered if they would be better with extra firm springs. Please post back and let me know what you think if you actually get an extra firm.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> think this is only for the 100mm fork.. have to search for the 120...
> Manitou Minute 29Er/Tower Spring Kit > Components > Forks > Spring & Ride kits | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


Thanks for the link. If you click on "choose option" it lists all options.


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

i was just reading this:

2012 Manitou Tower Pro Review | 29er Online

he weighs 210# and recommends:

"For XC riding, even at my weight, I would leave the stock spring (firm) in the Tower Pro while increasing the bottom out bumper. This can be achieved by increasing the oil levels of the fork. It is super supple when set this way. Small roots and rocks effectively disappear."


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> Thanks for the link. If you click on "choose option" it lists all options.


ya, saw that.. it's a wicked cheap price too.. think I'd get a whole slew of them and play 
wish I had spare $$$ around as I'd be buying a Tower right now to replace the crappy Reba I have now... Oh well... they should go on wicked sale just before or after X-mas just like last yr


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

It always depends on how and what you ride. If you like it as it is, then there you go. If you like the buttery smooth action of the fork, but it blows through the travel a little too easily, you can indeed add a bit of oil in the air piston chamber to increase the bottoming resistance. I believe they all ship with 7cc of oil in that chamber (under the left top fork cap). Increasing it to 10cc may give you the increase in bottoming resistance you need. These are the first two scenarios you may encounter, and the first remedy is for slight issues with the travel action.

In my case, I apparently use the bike hard enough that both the firm, and X-firm springs were just not enough. That was evidenced by not only how the fork performed, but in how it reacted to pressure changes. You can read all about that in my many previous posts.

I will warn you that if you are looking for the XX-Firm or Clydesdale Coil, I do not think you will find that listed on any commercial sites. I doubt that most vendors are even aware it exists, and I would be a little surprised if it were available on the net. I would make double sure that I got the right thing by going directly to Manitou and making sure I got the XX-Firm if that is what I required.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

This is an outstanding thread. Thanks to all of you who are participating in it, as you're all helping me learn quite a bit. 

I wish I knew which of the springs I should go with, as I have absolutely zero servicing skills, and will rely on my LBS to do any and all servicing. What I'm getting at is, the cost to swap springs could get pretty out of hand, should I choose the wrong one. I'm looking to put this fork on a 29er hardtail, and will be using it for both road riding, as well as XC/Trail riding, in the Pacific NW. That means roots are somewhat unavoidable, so I'm leaning towards the XX-Firm spring, with less air assist. Besides, it seems that at my weight (215-220 lbs out the shower), going with the firmest spring wouldn't be such a bad idea anyway. Due to the weather out here, I'm usually about 230-25 geared up, though it could be less. I'm not looking to do any drops, jumps, or downhill stuff on my hardtail, but the roots are a mainstay, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So, any recommendations? I'm leaning Tower Pro with XX-Firm spring, but also have been considering the Tower Expert. It just seems like less hassle, though my riding style would likely make the Expert a bit overkill, especially in the weight department. At any rate, I hope to get some good advice from you all, and thank you in advance.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

To be clear. The Pro is the top model. The Expert is the lesser. Pro uses MARS air AND coil system (separate and in series). The Expert uses coil WITH some air (same chamber, in parallel). The Pro is more expensive, but lighter and offers virtually infinite tuning possibilities. The Expert is heavier, cheaper, and easier to set up, but will not give you all the tuning options.

Bottom line; if you are looking to keep weight down, are particular about your suspension performance, and/or want to be able to dial it perfectly, the Pro is pretty amazing. If you just want a fork that works, go Expert. Either way, I'd just get one and give it a go. If it works then you are all set. If it doesn't you'll get a better idea what your needs are. If you choose the Pro, once you have an idea of its performance, we can help you decide. Got the t-shirt!


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

Indeed, I understand that. It just seems like the biggest con of the Expert is the extra weight, but that the coil taking on most of the load might be a better fit for us big guys. I'd love the lower weight of the Pro, but am slightly concerned about cost of a new spring, having the spring installed and so forth. Does the Expert not have the low speed compression option of the Pro? 

It may seem like I'm leaning more towards the Expert, but that is only because I am apprehensive about spending for a new fork, only to have to pay for immediate upgrades. I'd also need to upgrade my wheels to be 15mm compatible, so I'd really have to wait before making the switch to the Pro anyway (just thought about that). On the other hand, at 230+ geared up, I don't think the QR is a good idea, so going with the Expert isn't exactly the right move either. 

I'm buying a Scott Scale, which will come with an XC32TK fork, with a spring that is too soft for my weight. I figured I'd possibly buy a new, proper fork, and have the LBS fit it instead of the XC32. Then, I could sell the XC32 myself, as an uncut fork (assuming it is uncut when they receive it). But now that I think about everything more thoroughly, there's far less value in upgrading my fork to another QR version, knowing that 15mm, or even 20mm, is much more suitable. 

I suppose it may be best to just ride the XC32 as-is, and maybe stay off of the trails with it, until December, when I'll be able to upgrade the wheels, and can then upgrade the fork as well. I was really just trying to take advantage of the potential ability to sell the stock fork in uncut form, to add value, but the most important issue is that I buy the right fork for the long-term, and avoid buying a third fork when I upgrade the wheels in December.

Back to the original point of discussion: I've seen folks mention that running less air with the firmer coils is an indication of suitable spring/air setup, and it seems that you've still had to run pretty high air pressure, even with the XX-Firm coil. I think this is what's been throwing me off, and making me somewhat unsure about the Tower Pro, at my weight. Granted, it seems you ride much more aggressive terrain than myself (and weigh a touch more), but we do have the roots and all. I just won't be riding the hardtail like I will my FS rig. I may not have any problem with even the stock firm spring in the Pro, so I guess when the time is right, I should try it in stock form first, and go from there, should I decide to go that route. 

Let me know what you think, regarding the Expert vs Pro, for my weight and intended riding style with this fork/bike. And pardon if I'm asking the same questions....just looking for clarity. I'm way too analytical. Gift and a curse, for sure, haha. Thanks again!


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> Indeed, I understand that. It just seems like the biggest con of the Expert is the extra weight, but that the coil taking on most of the load might be a better fit for us big guys. I'd love the lower weight of the Pro, but am slightly concerned about cost of a new spring, having the spring installed and so forth. Does the Expert not have the low speed compression option of the Pro?
> 
> It may seem like I'm leaning more towards the Expert, but that is only because I am apprehensive about spending for a new fork, only to have to pay for immediate upgrades. I'd also need to upgrade my wheels to be 15mm compatible, so I'd really have to wait before making the switch to the Pro anyway (just thought about that). On the other hand, at 230+ geared up, I don't think the QR is a good idea, so going with the Expert isn't exactly the right move either.
> 
> ...


Manitou Tower Pro 29 Fork 2011 > Components > Forks > Suspension Forks | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

thomllama said:


> Manitou Tower Pro 29 Fork 2011 > Components > Forks > Suspension Forks | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop


Would need a 20mm thru axle wheelset. I'll have 9mm until I can afford to upgrade the wheels in December.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> Would need a 20mm thru axle wheelset. I'll have 9mm until I can afford to upgrade the wheels in December.


buy the fork wile it's on sale.. when going to get the bike have the shop switch the hub/wheel what ever.. not sure with the Scott hub (who makes it?) but most front hubs now have "plugs" instead of actual axles that can be switched out...


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

thomllama said:


> buy the fork wile it's on sale.. when going to get the bike have the shop switch the hub/wheel what ever.. not sure with the Scott hub (who makes it?) but most front hubs now have "plugs" instead of actual axles that can be switched out...


I'll have to look into the hub switch. It seemed to me like this was actually not as easy of a thing to do on cheap, stock wheelsets, but I can check it out. If it costs to upgrade, I likely wouldn't do it, as I don't want to upgrade a wheelset I'll be replacing in a few months. I also just noticed this model doesn't have the tapered steerer, so I'd just go with the 2012 model, when the time is right. It'll cost a bit more, but like I said, I'm all about doing it right the first time, when possible. Hell of a deal on that fork though, no question. I was aware of it, but forgot that it was a straight steerer. Appreciate you though!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

My RIP9 has a tapered HT and my Tower has a straight steer tube. No biggie. I had my LBS get a Dimension 20T/A hub and lace it in my existing wheel for me. I think it cost me $75. I can't help you make your equipment choices other than to say if you want the best fork with the most potential for perfected performance, the Pro is your choice.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

Indeed. I am pretty sure I'm gonna get the Pro, the more I read and think about it. I may just ride the bike as-is for 3 months, and make all the upgrades at once, but I'm definitely going with the Pro over the Reba, which I'd previously been set on.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Any ride reports on the '12 Tower Pro 140mm with tapered ST and 15mm axle? Got one on order, hoping it compares well to the 2010 20mm axle straight steerer version for stiffness.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> Any ride reports on the '12 Tower Pro 140mm with tapered ST and 15mm axle? Got one on order, hoping it compares well to the 2010 20mm axle straight steerer version for stiffness.


I've got both a 2010 Minute 29 with 20mm. and a 2012 tapered Tower Pro with 15mm. I've had them both on the same frame. (2012 Banshee Paradox, the Minute with a Cane Creek adapter crown race.) I can't tell the difference between the two. They are both 120mm. though.


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

I m sure the lower end and vertical stiffness of 15mm and of course of 20mmTA will be more than enough, manitou has done very good job there but

The point here with such a long AC of 29er fork with 140mm, 32mm stanchions
how acceptable flexy will be horizontally, 

and how tower pro compares to others 32mm of 140mm travel in that sector
(for instance the marzocchi 44ti 29 or even to 34mm Fox 29)


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I am sure most posters know this, but the Tower Expert really is the right choice for the big guys (250 plus?). I think the Pro would be great for anyone smaller, but after much research and speaking with the guys at Hayes a few times, I went with the Expert.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> I am sure most posters know this, but the Tower Expert really is the right choice for the big guys (250 plus?). I think the Pro would be great for anyone smaller, but after much research and speaking with the guys at Hayes a few times, I went with the Expert.


I'd like to hear on what information you base that assertion?


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> I am sure most posters know this, but the Tower Expert really is the right choice for the big guys (250 plus?). I think the Pro would be great for anyone smaller, but after much research and speaking with the guys at Hayes a few times, I went with the Expert.


That's strange, I mean there are different coil spring kits for Tower Pro, at your weight you could just change it from medium stock on 2011 models or from firm stock on 2012 models to an appropriate kit for your needs.

Of course, if you are been told from Hayes that Expert model would be better that means that even the X firm coil on Pro would not be ok at your weight.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> I'd like to hear on what information you base that assertion?


Give anyone at Hayes a call regarding a rider over 250# on the Pro vs. Expert, and they will give you the the same answer they gave me....go Expert!! I had 2-3 phone convo's regarding the best fork for me, and every time the opinion was to stay away from the pro....regardless of spring rate.



ocean_29 said:


> Of course, if you are been told from Hayes that Expert model would be better that means that even the X firm coil on Pro would not be ok at your weight.


Correct, coil over air vs. air over coil for clyde.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

I currently have a Tower Expert and have owned the Minute 29er (same as the Tower Pro w/ MAR's Air) Without hesitation I would recomend the Expert. The Expert coil offers excellent support all the way through its travel. I ran a firm spring on the Minute and it still just rode too deep into its travel. The only small negative I have for the Expert are the plastic ABS and rebound knobs.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I would agree with the plastic knobs on the Expert, but the remote lockout comes with a nice aluminium knob. 

Also, those looking at the Expert but really want the 15mm TA of the Pro, the lowers from the Pro work just fine with the Expert.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> I am sure most posters know this, but the Tower Expert really is the right choice for the big guys (250 plus?).





jonshonda said:


> Give anyone at Hayes a call regarding a rider over 250# on the Pro vs. Expert, and they will give you the the same answer they gave me....go Expert!!


Well, not everyone says that;

I was going to do this myself, but I thought it would have more weight if it came from someone at Manitou. This is a direct quote from the Chief Engineer at Manitou, regarding the information you received, and your interpretation of it;_

"Not really true. It is much easier to drop in a stiffer spring in the Expert, but you _(meaning myself)_ are getting the performance you were looking for with the special spring in the Pro and you have a lighter fork for what's worth to the big guys. We do have a more comprehensive spring selection with the Expert and dialing in the sag is easier with the Expert due to the ACT Air system. Thanks, I will talk with the tech guys about better messaging."_

This is not by way of saying you are stupid or they are stupid or that one fork sucks or anything. It is to correct the misconception that the Pro is a limiting factor for some people in terms of performance. It is just the opposite. There is nothing wrong with either system, but they are fundamentally different in their approach and their performance. I could go into all kinds of technical discussion on the differences, but what he is saying in a nutshell is that the Expert ACT system is easier to adjust for the weight of the rider because it is using a parallel air/coil system, which makes it really easy to set sag and bottom out. Just add more or less air! More air is a super easy (and cheap/light) way to solve the resistance to compression, but it does not necessarily offer the best type of spring action. That is exactly why the Pro exists.

What he is not saying directly is that you give up a few things for that ease. 1) You give up weight, features, and to some extent the quality of the hardware. There is a reason that it is cheaper. 2) You give up some measure of specific quality of action, the ability to tune the fork very precisely, and also because of that, some ultimate performance and conformability.

If you just want to put a fork on your bike that will do the job, not have to fuss too much with it, and are not overly critical about the performance, the Expert may be your part. That is likely just fine for a large number of people, and that's great. However, if you are more critical about suspension performance, and want the ability to tune it for very specific types of action, the Pro is your best choice.

Many people are quite happy with the performance of the Pro just as it is. Although I would not have thought so initially, I apparently put a fork through a lot more abuse, and have a higher requirement for its performance than the average person, even the average Clyde. While the Pro has taken more work to dial it in for me (mostly because they just recently came up with the parts), I am proof that it can be done with the XX Firm spring, and in the end you will have a fork that really performs, with no compromises, under all circumstances VERY well.


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

Totally agree ^^ 

Do we have some initial inputs of limits that each spring kit have concerning the rider weight ? 

I know that counts and the rider preference but the medium coil kit of 2011 is it ok for 178lbs rider ? Is it a good starting point ?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

^^^ Yup, think that John said it perfectly. There is not "one right answer" with regards to weight, both will serve the purpose properly for the heavier rider. However, for the rider that will like to TUNE the fork to their needs, their terrain, and their specifications; then the Pro is the way to go.

I can tell you starting with the 2011 Tower Pro with the MEDIUM spring at 190# and now going with the FIRM at 175# that this fork is a STELLAR performer. I have not been able to get on my bike in almost 2 months due to life being in the way (not to mention the 15+mph winds in the evening, every evening) but my last race, the course was incredibly rocky. The fork never once made me have to think about what setting I was at, where I was, did I bottom out, was my travel adjusted correctly or anything. With me at 185# at the time and probably about 65psi and click 3/4 from locked out I ran the first loop (Sawtooth Ridge Challenge - Sierra Cup MTB series) and found that in the rocky sections I was getting tossed a bit, dropped the clicks to 1/2 from lock out and never thought about it again. The fork did exactly as it was supposed to on uphill, downhill, rocky, smooth, fast and flowy or a techy climb, IT JUST PERFORMED, and performed WELL. 

You cannot be steered wrong with either the EXPERT or PRO series, the main advantage of the PRO is that you will get an INFINITE number of tunability with the fork and can truly customize it. And for the user that was asking about buying the wrong fork (meaning included spring), I did mine through my LBS. Total charge to me was $75 including the $20 spring, rest of was labor and small cost for fork oil because it required an oil they did not use normally so the owner had to run around town to find the right oil. To me, that was well worth the extra money considering I purchased mine at $369 to my door through ebay.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

ocean_29 said:


> Totally agree ^^ Do we have some initial inputs of limits that each spring kit have concerning the rider weight? I know that counts and the rider preference but the medium coil kit of 2011 is it ok for 178lbs rider ? Is it a good starting point ?


Hey;

I don't think there is any safety restriction where the spring is concerned, if that is what you are driving at. It's all performance. If it works it's right. Where you would need to be concerned is in the air pressure you needed to use to get the proper performance. If you had to use a ton of air pressure to keep the fork up in its travel (like 120-140 for the firm spring), that would not only be less than ideal, but potentially ruinous because the Yin & Yang nature of the MARS system might be out of balance. Of course, one would hope that one would clue into the fact that something was wrong, because if you had to use extreme air pressure in the Pro, that would mean the performance would suck. It would either be push or rock.

There was some concern expressed to me by Manitou that higher pressure may lead to seal failures. I do not believe that they have done any extended durability testing beyond 130psi, but I have been given damping curves and oil levels for pressures up to 190psi to use with the XX-Firm coil, so my guess is that it would likely be OK. At 240lbs I am running mine at 140psi at about 2/3 compression dialed in and it is just pure butter. I can't imagine anyone really needing too much more air than that.

I put a pretty good beating on it tonight at a local rough and tumble rock farm. Nothing but smiles.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> _
> 
> "Not really true. It is much easier to drop in a stiffer spring in the Expert, but you _(meaning myself)_ are getting the performance you were looking for with the special spring in the Pro and you have a lighter fork for what's worth to the big guys. We do have a more comprehensive spring selection with the Expert and dialing in the sag is easier with the Expert due to the ACT Air system. Thanks, I will talk with the tech guys about better messaging."_


I guess I / the TECHS at Manitou I spoke with was unfamiliar with a "Special Spring Kit" that would make the fork work for at (at the time) 300lb rider. I am basing my info off a convo I had at the beginning of this year, so it could be outdated.

I didn't buy the Expert to be a cheapa$$, I bought it because I had direct information from Manitou that the Pro was not an option because of my size. So I would agree with the Engineer you spoke with at Manitou by saying that they need to keep consumers updated, and continue to stay up to date with their own products.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

I have been 'demo-ing' a bike with a 2012 Manitou Tower Pro (with whatever spring it shipped with) and have 4 or 5 rides on it now. I weigh about 265 buck-nekkid and have settled on about 85-90psi which gives me around 30% sag. 

One of the best performing forks I have had the pleasure of riding. Uses all/most of the travel, but hasn't really bottomed out on me yet. The closest thing I have found to the Marz 44 Micro-Ti (my favorite 29er fork to date), very comparable to say the least.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Edit: I looked back to the first page of this thread ( which I just read through in it's full glory ) and confirmed the info I recieved and posted regarding the use of PRO vs. Expert for big boys. I still think that at 240# and running 30 psi over max air pressure that anything more would kill the long term reliability of the PRO. I am not trying to get into an arguement, but as Trailmaker has said, constantly running that much air prob isn't the best for the fork.

This interview with Ed Kwaterski, head of engineering at Manitou, also confirms that although they callout 110psi as the max for the PRO "120psi is the limit". The Engineer Speaks: 2012 Manitou Tower Pro

Regardless, I love my EXPERT!! :thumbsup:

Good dirt.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

This is speculation on my part, based on over a year of private conversations with Ed Kwaterski leading up to the eventual release of the Clydesdale Coil for the Pro. The max air pressure threshold for the Pro at 110psi was set primarily based on calculations of what the coil springs they had at the time would require. This was probably a range that they felt comfortable would work well based on previous experience. Both the springs they had available and the pressure calculations based on them proved to be woefully inadequate for some people, like me. They just flat missed the boat on it, and he admitted as much to me very early on. As Ed said, they don't have any 200lb+++ test riders on their staff. Who knew there were so many big guys out there riding?

Do know that the Hayes Group stewardship of Manitou is a fairly new endeavor, and I got the distinct impression that the previous owners of the company had really let the brand slide badly. That was very evident in the fact that you did not see their product around much anymore. They are still working very hard to make a comeback, and I'm sure they would admit there is much work yet to be done. The new products they are releasing and the excellent customer service they are providing prove that they are doing a good job. Frankly, if the CS had been anything but impressive, this thread would not exist in this form, and would be a rant AGAINST the company instead of in support of it.

I got the first Clydesdale Coil that came from the factory in Taiwan, after Ed took it into the lab and did some dyno testing and did the air pressure and oil level calculations. I have no idea how many of these have been made available, and how many people even know that they exist. The techs that recommended the Expert were working on sound information as they knew it at the time, but that information has been superseded. I have no idea whether they officially feel comfortable with and endorse air pressure levels above 110, but Ed has not given me any reason to worry about that, and included a hand written note giving me air pressure and oil levels good for 190psi. Either I am the Clydesdale Test Team, or those are considered safe.

Rest assured, this thread is not out to create the Tower Pro Zealots League. It is all about information. I was quite near bitterly disappointed when I first got this fork, because I could see that all it needed to be great was a little tweaking. I wanted to let others know that there was hope for it, and that Manitou was a company working hard to earn their support.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

"TrailMaker", I wanted to comment on the maximum air pressure debate for the Tower Pro.

As I've mentioned before, I have both a 2010 Minute 29 and a 2012 Tower Pro and I don't see any physical/functional difference between the two. For the 2011 model year of the Tower I did an exercise. I compared the exploded diagrams and part numbers of the two. They are indeed identical. I'm not inclined to do the comparison with the 2012 but I don't see any difference, other than a 15QR lower casting. 

With the above in mind, the owners manual for the 2010 gives the air pressure limit as 150psi. while the 2011 and 2012 have the limit as 110psi. I do not believe this change is a safety issue but rather an attempt to encourage the user to install the appropriate spring which of course makes sense.

As for previous generations of Manitou being inferior, I wish I could again get a fork like the Manitou Nixon Super with TPC+ damping that I owned. Simply the best damping system I've owned.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> "TrailMaker", I wanted to comment on the maximum air pressure debate for the Tower Pro.
> 
> As I've mentioned before, I have both a 2010 Minute 29 and a 2012 Tower Pro and I don't see any physical/functional difference between the two. For the 2011 model year of the Tower I did an exercise. I compared the exploded diagrams and part numbers of the two. They are indeed identical. I'm not inclined to do the comparison with the 2012 but I don't see any difference, other than a 15QR lower casting.
> 
> With the above in mind, the owners manual for the 2010 gives the air pressure limit as 150psi. while the 2011 and 2012 have the limit as 110psi. I do not believe this change is a safety issue but rather an attempt to encourage the user to install the appropriate spring which of course makes sense.


Yes. The first fork named Tower was nothing but a Minute 29er. They simply wanted to differentiate the 26 from 29 product lines. Interesting info on the comparison with earlier and later models.



> As for previous generations of Manitou being inferior, I wish I could again get a fork like the Manitou Nixon Super with TPC+ damping that I owned. Simply the best damping system I've owned.


Well, I did not mean to imply that the product was any worse, but you have to admit that the once ubiquitous Manitou had started to drop from the radar compared to the lofty perch they had in the early days of MTB suspension. They were THE suspension brand. Fox came along and blew EVERYONE out of the water, and the other companies were suddenly WAY behind the performance curve. Rox Shox had a similar trajectory to Manitou around the time that they were absorbed by SRAM. We know what has happened with SRAM companies. They have exploded! I think that Hayes and Manitou are headed for the same trajectory. At the very least, they are catching up fast!

As an aside, I have a very lightly used Nixon Super 145 sitting right next to me here as I type this. I don't really know too much about it regarding the exact spec it has and have never ridden it. I traded a 30mm stanchion Minute 1 for it because while that fork could be tuned PERFECTLY, and it was a great riding fork, my exception was that the 30mm stanchions were too flexy for my size rider. I figured I'd have more use for this fork than the Minute, but I really have no use for a 26er fork anymore either. I might be interested in dealing it and helping you quench your unrequited longing.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> Yes. The first fork named Tower was nothing but a Minute 29er. They simply wanted to differentiate the 26 from 29 product lines. Interesting info on the comparison with earlier and later models.
> 
> Well, I did not mean to imply that the product was any worse, but you have to admit that the once ubiquitous Manitou had started to drop from the radar compared to the lofty perch they had in the early days of MTB suspension. They were THE suspension brand. Fox came along and blew EVERYONE out of the water, and the other companies were suddenly WAY behind the performance curve. Rox Shox had a similar trajectory to Manitou around the time that they were absorbed by SRAM. We know what has happened with SRAM companies. They have exploded! I think that Hayes and Manitou are headed for the same trajectory. At the very least, they are catching up fast!
> 
> As an aside, I have a very lightly used Nixon Super 145 sitting right next to me here as I type this. I don't really know too much about it regarding the exact spec it has and have never ridden it. I traded a 30mm stanchion Minute 1 for it because while that fork could be tuned PERFECTLY, and it was a great riding fork, my exception was that the 30mm stanchions were too flexy for my size rider. I figured I'd have more use for this fork than the Minute, but I really have no use for a 26er fork anymore either. I might be interested in dealing it and helping you quench your unrequited longing.


I'm a bit "meh!" about Fox. Lots of complaints about not getting full travel. I've been riding nothing but Manitou since about 2004. The only disappointment was a Nixon IT. It was a great idea but they had problems making it work. At least Manitou try to be innovative.

I had a really great Intense 5point5 which had the Nixon Super 145 on it. Never rode it again after I got my Banshee Paradox. I sold the complete bike. I just really liked the TPC+ damping on it. I'd love to have a 29" fork with it.

That said, I recently came across video review on the Tower Pro and it's quite impressive:


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Buying mine next week. It's a 2011 from Jenson. After reading this thread I'm going to buy the extra firm spring. I'm 220 lbs in riding gear.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Carloswithac said:


> Buying mine next week. It's a 2011 from Jenson. After reading this thread I'm going to buy the extra firm spring. I'm 220 lbs in riding gear.


Let us know how that works out, with the extra firm. I'm 215lbs. in my socks and I have a firm in both my forks.


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> Let us know how that works out, with the extra firm. I'm 215lbs. in my socks and I have a firm in both my forks.


Have you had any issues? I do XC riding, nothing aggressive.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Carloswithac said:


> Have you had any issues? I do XC riding, nothing aggressive.


No issues at all, just implying that the firm spring with 100psi. works fine for me. I don't do any big drops/jumps but ride fairly rocky trails at times.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

So...

How does a 140 lb guy bottom a fork on that terrain? it wasn't exactly smooth, but... was he running it with no air? I'm riding stuff that rough on a 30-40* grade and I never bottomed mine even with the original spring. Well... If I did bottom it, I never noticed.

140lbs... really? I think my pack weighs near that.


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> So...
> 
> How does a 140 lb guy bottom a fork on that terrain? it wasn't exactly smooth, but... was he running it with no air? I'm riding stuff that rough on a 30-40* grade and I never bottomed mine even with the original spring. Well... If I did bottom it, I never noticed.
> 
> 140lbs... really? I think my pack weighs near that.


When you bottomed this fork you can't hear anything metallic sound or you don't feel it like others forks.

He used a light coil with few psi.. I am 178 and I take advantage of its full travel either with 60psi or 80psi easily with medium coil on full open. It's really very active fork. On XC trail it's perfect with these settings.

I suppose with 90-110 psi would better on rocky steep trails without loose the plush on xc trails ,but I don't want to limit the psi limits ,dont want to push the seals , so i put 3-4 clicks from full open in that kind of trails and it's fine. But..

From what I read here the fork will not have reability problems on 100-110 psi and maybe I ll try it.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

TrailMaker said:


> So...
> 
> How does a 140 lb guy bottom a fork on that terrain? it wasn't exactly smooth, but... was he running it with no air? I'm riding stuff that rough on a 30-40* grade and I never bottomed mine even with the original spring. Well... If I did bottom it, I never noticed.
> 
> 140lbs... really? I think my pack weighs near that.


I believe that you can easily see that the fork bottoms out in the video. Frequently the stanchion fully sinks into the lower casting. You are the one who has waxed lyrical about the infinite tune-ability of this fork. I certainly have bottomed out my fork, in fact it happens frequently. With a soft spring and appropriate sag for a 140lb. rider, I don't see why it would not. There certainly are a lot of very talented female riders who are lighter than that. Why wouldn't the fork be tune-able for them?


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## micah356 (Dec 21, 2010)

Good to hear. I've also had nothing but incredible helpfulness from Manitou, as well as their canadian distributor Trident.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Guys
I'm standing in front of buying PRO 2012 with QR15. This would go to Anthem 29 which has now RS monarch damper. Do You think that i may leave the damper and it shouldn't have an impact on overall effectiveness or should i change also the damper - in that case what would You recomend?
What combo do You use?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Placek said:


> Guys
> I'm standing in front of buying PRO 2012 with QR15. This would go to Anthem 29 which has now RS monarch damper. Do You think that i may leave the damper and it shouldn't have an impact on overall effectiveness or should i change also the damper - in that case what would You recomend?
> What combo do You use?


I assume that English is not your first language but I understand that you are asking if you should change the back shock when you put a Tower Pro on your Anthem 29. I have no experience with the RS Monarch but if it is performing satisfactorily, there is no reason to change it.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Yes You understood me correctly. In my english i try to put too many thoughts at once.
Regarding suspension i'm looking for a change from Reba/Monarch setup and when FOX is too overpriced im seriously considering SID or Tower pro. 
When i change manufacturer i wasn't sure if fork wouldn't impact the damper change. Sometimes You can see that when buying RS fork the manufacturer recomends Monarch. Was wondering if Manitou does the same.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Placek said:


> Sometimes You can see that when buying RS fork the manufacturer recomends Monarch. Was wondering if Manitou does the same.


That is just because RS wants to sell you a new shock as well as a new fork. It doesn't mean you need to.

Drew


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

great marketing almost like FOX


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Carloswithac said:


> Buying mine next week. It's a 2011 from Jenson. After reading this thread I'm going to buy the extra firm spring. I'm 220 lbs in riding gear.


When I started riding mine at the beginning of last year I was probably about 195# and riding the stock MEDIUM spring. I rode for about 5 months like that and then towards the end of the summer I was able to switch it to the FIRM spring still riding about 190#. This year I have done a lot more technical riding (more rock gardens and trail riding than XC) with the race series that I have been participating in. As I have lost weight from riding and other stuff I have found that I can increasingly lower the pressure.

Now if you go back a few pages you will find that this fork will ramp up in linear feel with small increments in PSI. The last race I did, which unfortunately was the last time I rode about 2 months ago, was quite rocky and technical. When I did my pre-ride of part of the course I noticed this and dropped my PSI from the 70PSI I had been running the FIRM at (mind you I was 185# at that point) to about 62PSI. With the compression knob set to about 3 clicks from full open I can tell you that I never ONCE thought about my fork or complained that I was bottoming out, loosing lateral stiffness, sliding out, etc. What I found was that the fork disappeared under me and while doing hard climbs I would get little to no standing pedal bob.

The one thing you have to remember about this fork is that it is INFINITELY tuneable! So you will have to spend some time getting it right for you. At 215# you will be in the range of the FIRM spring (standard now for the PRO) but you could run the MEDIUM spring at, an albeit, higher PSI. If you are in to playing with the fork, look at Trailmakers charts about adding additional oil level to increase the linear feel and reduce some of the mentioned mid/top end. Now that I have dropped some more weight (now down to 175ish) I am going to have to get out and play with it a bit more, racing season has unfortunately ended abruptly for me but that does not mean I cannot keep riding!!

All-in-all, I can tell you I will be looking to Manitou from now on for forks and will HIGHLY recommend them to anyone asking. For the price, you are getting a stellar fork that has a company backing it that wants your feedback and WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY!:thumbsup:


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

thomllama said:


> buy the fork wile it's on sale.. when going to get the bike have the shop switch the hub/wheel what ever.. not sure with the Scott hub (who makes it?) but most front hubs now have "plugs" instead of actual axles that can be switched out...


Does anyone know if this is possible? I have a Scott Scale Team(same hubs) and I would love to upgrade my forks to the Tower Pro. It would make a lot more sense than trying to make the xc32 fork work for my weight(260). My bike does have "plugs". I know this because I had to wait a week for my bike to get fixed because Scott had used the wrong ones. I wish my LBS(REI) could answer this, but they always just taken my number and never called me with an answer.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Treebumper said:


> Does anyone know if this is possible? I have a Scott Scale Team(same hubs) and I would love to upgrade my forks to the Tower Pro. It would make a lot more sense than trying to make the xc32 fork work for my weight(260). My bike does have "plugs". I know this because I had to wait a week for my bike to get fixed because Scott had used the wrong ones. I wish my LBS(REI) could answer this, but they always just taken my number and never called me with an answer.


best bet it to hit up Scott directly...

Contact - SCOTT Sports


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

just thought i would post my experience with this fork. its the tapered 2012 with the qr15. im about 235lbs with my gear. first ride i had to ride with almost full lockout. i added the extra 5cc of oil to the air side and pumped it up to 110lbs and now its perfect for me as i prefer a firm shock. its using about 95% travel still on the more technical sections i ride. i also have the lockout which works great. its a carbon hardtail 29er.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Treebumper said:


> Does anyone know if this is possible? I have a Scott Scale Team(same hubs) and I would love to upgrade my forks to the Tower Pro. It would make a lot more sense than trying to make the xc32 fork work for my weight(260). My bike does have "plugs". I know this because I had to wait a week for my bike to get fixed because Scott had used the wrong ones. I wish my LBS(REI) could answer this, but they always just taken my number and never called me with an answer.


Well;

I would not characterize REI as an LBS... really. I mean, they sell a lot of neat stuff, including bikes, but... it's not what I would call bike-centric like a real LBS.

Nothing like a little self education. Take that wheel off and inspect it to see if it does have some sort of plug on each side that looks like it comes out. These would be axle conversion inserts. You should be able to eyeball it to 20mm size if you have the inserts out.

Or, take a pic and post it. We might be able to tell. Frankly, I have never had a wheel with conversion inserts, but it can't be that hard to tell. Trying Scott's CS would not hurt either. Good to know those things when you need them.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

This is as far apart as I was comfortable taking it apart, the bearings seem to be pressed in?

























It does look like there is a lot of extra room behind those bearings. I'm planning on asking the tech that discovered the incorrect "cones" and ask him what he thinks. I remember him talking about how the spring forks might be a good option considering my size, but I may want to upgrade to air forks later on.
I did email Scott customer service, I'll let you know what they say.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hum...

I've not fooled with any of the convertible hubs myself, but the tape don't lie. Looks like it will only accept a skewer to me. Perhaps a 10mm bolt on axle at best. Worst case, you just get a new hub and have an LBS lace it in for you. I did that with my wheel when I got my Tower. $75 all in as I recall.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

This is the tube that the skewer slides through.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> Hum...
> 
> I've not fooled with any of the convertible hubs myself, but the tape don't lie. Looks like it will only accept a skewer to me. Perhaps a 10mm bolt on axle at best. Worst case, you just get a new hub and have an LBS lace it in for you. I did that with my wheel when I got my Tower. $75 all in as I recall.


It sounds like that would still be cheaper than getting the current model with a 9mm QR.
I'm pretty new to pedal bikes, how tight do I make the bolts that hold that tube in?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

From several clues, I would say that you have Shimano hubs. Firstly you have a CenterLock disc rotor. Secondly it has cup and cone bearings and a threaded axle. Shimano hubs are not convertible. The only option you have with that hub is to use a standard 9mm. QR dropout.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Treebumper said:


> I'm pretty new to pedal bikes, how tight do I make the bolts that hold that tube in?


I never registered you question earlier. I'm afraid that it's not just how tight to make the bolts on a cup and cone hub. You have to allow for the clamping force of the skewer. Here is an article from Park Tool on how to put that hub together:

Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Hub Overhaul and Adjustment

You may want to get someone who knows what they are doing, do it for you.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Good advice;

At the same time, you might just start working on your knowledge base right now. The Park Tools sight is a wealth of knowledge. I use it often.

The general rule on a bearing with cones like this is you want it just tight enough that there is no play, and not much tighter, if any. The nice thing about these is you can vary that according to bearing wear. So, if you set up the cones for no slop, bring the jamb nuts down, and make sure that the cone goes no tighter, you are set. If you note that tightening the jamb nuts tightens the cones, you need to start with the cones a tad looser to compensate. If you have the proper thin wall cone wrenches (I've ground my own out of generic combination wrenches), it is not really very difficult.

Give it a try!


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Thanks for the link, I found a youtube video that said pretty much the same thing. I think I got it pretty good, but I'll have a mechanic check it to make sure. I've done a lot of this stuff on mx bikes, but this is my first pedal bike(at 44).


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## DukeNeverwinter (May 6, 2006)

Paid Spam-a-lot
Manitou Tower Pro 29er Absolute plus... 9qr - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories

I loved this fork, I just want a 15qr one.


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Got the fork in, but it looks like I'm going to have to change my color scheme. Probably get rid of the orange grips/pedals and go with black grips, and ghetto paint the pedals. 
Test riding it tomorrow, just have to air up the fork, and my bike pump doesn't fit. (head too wide). It's got the Extra firm spring in there, and I'll start at 80 psi tomorrow to see how it feels. I'll go from there.


















Bought a 20 mm TA Arch wheel. Probably buy the rear wheel when I get a chance.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

So I just ordered one from Jenson and emailed Manitou about getting the Clydesdale spring. They're out of stock for the next month at least. 

Does anyone have one they like to sell? I'm 275 without gear, so I'm pretty confident the xfirm won't cut it after reading through this thread.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

amadkins said:


> So I just ordered one from Jenson and emailed Manitou about getting the Clydesdale spring. They're out of stock for the next month at least.
> 
> Does anyone have one they like to sell? I'm 275 without gear, so I'm pretty confident the xfirm won't cut it after reading through this thread.


Hah!

Unless you only ride paved bike paths or groomed rail trails, there's no doubt that you'll need the Clyde Coil. I sense a profit opportunity here... 

Without the spring, you could still tweak it to perform better in the interim. It's pretty easy to add a few CCs of oil on top of the air piston to increase bottom out resistance. You can crank of the air pressure, of course, but that puts the two springs (air & coil) out of balance to eachother at some point and makes the ride spiky. Other than that, about all you can do is to increase spring preload by adding a spacer between it and either end that it rests on. I did that early on and that confirmed for me that the spring rate indeed needed to be stiffer. That was part of the genesis for Manitou developing the Clyde Coil.

Mine is performing very nicely. Still, I cannot get one of those progressive shim stack tunes out of my head. I'm happy now, but I might do it just to see how it works.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

TrailMaker said:


> Hah!
> 
> Unless you only ride paved bike paths or groomed rail trails, there's no doubt that you'll need the Clyde Coil. I sense a profit opportunity here... .


Fine by me. I'm all about free market interaction.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

amadkins said:


> Fine by me. I'm all about free market interaction.


Just kidding;

I got the first one. It's gonna be a collectors item! 

Keep us posted on how the fork works out.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

TrailMaker, if I were to order a 2011 Tower Pro, to take advantage of the current discount at Jenson, would you recommend a firm, x-firm or Clyde spring? I'm 215 to 220 without gear, and maybe 225 to 235 with gear. I had initially planned to get the 2012 fork, which would allow me to try the firm spring first, but have decided that the 20mm axle is more important to me than the tapered steerer. Of course, the stock spring in the 2011 fork is a medium. Thanks for any input you have. I was thinking firm might be good to start with, since I plan on more XC style riding with this fork/bike combo (Scott Scale 29er). I wouldn't be hucking, but it's rooty in Washington state in general.


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## bigmatt05 (Sep 11, 2012)

*Clyde spring*

Can any one point me in the right direction to order the Clyde spring?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> TrailMaker, if I were to order a 2011 Tower Pro, to take advantage of the current discount at Jenson, would you recommend a firm, x-firm or Clyde spring? I'm 215 to 220 without gear, and maybe 225 to 235 with gear. I had initially planned to get the 2012 fork, which would allow me to try the firm spring first, but have decided that the 20mm axle is more important to me than the tapered steerer. Of course, the stock spring in the 2011 fork is a medium. Thanks for any input you have. I was thinking firm might be good to start with, since I plan on more XC style riding with this fork/bike combo (Scott Scale 29er). I wouldn't be hucking, but it's rooty in Washington state in general.


I've mentioned before that I have both a 2010 Minute 29 with 20mm. (exactly the same fork as 2011 Tower) and a tapered 2012 Tower Pro with QR15. I feel no difference in perceived stiffness with either fork, but I digress. I'm exactly the same weight as you at 215lbs. and I have a firm spring in both forks. I pump both of them to 100psi., well within limits and they work well for me.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ronnie said:


> I've mentioned before that I have both a 2010 Minute 29 with 20mm. (exactly the same fork as 2011 Tower) and a tapered 2012 Tower Pro with QR15. I feel no difference in perceived stiffness with either fork, but I digress. I'm exactly the same weight as you at 215lbs. and I have a firm spring in both forks. I pump both of them to 100psi., well within limits and they work well for me.


Agreed with Ronnie... Only real difference you will see moving from FIRM to X-FIRM will be a reduction in the necessary PSI increase. FIRM will work just fine for you (I started at 200ish and now down to 175ish).


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks Ronnie and Greg! I guess I'm a bit curious as to whether less psi and a firmer spring will feel better than a softer spring and more psi. Only way to find out is to try, haha. I'll go for the firm spring, and make changes only if that doesn't work, which it seems won't be necessary. Thanks again fellas!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> Thanks Ronnie and Greg! I guess I'm a bit curious as to whether less psi and a firmer spring will feel better than a softer spring and more psi. Only way to find out is to try, haha. I'll go for the firm spring, and make changes only if that doesn't work, which it seems won't be necessary. Thanks again fellas!


Really it will all come down to personal preference. You will find that there will be a slight range where feel changes depending on the setup (this is better explained by TrailMaker and his graphs). Basically, at some point the impact will be taken for one spring to the next (air vs coil) and the feel changes slight, with the super hard PSI you will lose some small bump compliance as the fork looses the "plush" feel in turn for a linear feel that is more along the lines of how a full spring (pogo stick) fork would react resulting in a hard impact across the range. This can be compensated by your own strength, body weight, trail conditions, etc. Basically, I would start out with a low PSI and work your way up. What you will find is there will be a point where the ramp up spikes drastically over a few PSI change. This will effectively be your "sweet spot" and you will need to adjust other things within that range to add to the feel/plush.

Hope that doesnt confuse you to much!:madman:


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> Thanks Ronnie and Greg! I guess I'm a bit curious as to whether less psi and a firmer spring will feel better than a softer spring and more psi. Only way to find out is to try, haha. I'll go for the firm spring, and make changes only if that doesn't work, which it seems won't be necessary. Thanks again fellas!


Heretic Skeptic(typing that was a guilty pleasure), let me know how it works out. I have the Scale Team and would like to upgrade mine as well.

Adam


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Just to let you guys know, I have the 9mm QR version and do not feel ANY lateral flex when riding (and I ride pretty hard). I have had my BIL ride it and he is approximately your guys size and said the same thing. While I know that the 15QR will add a significant amount of lateral stiffness to the fork I have personally felt that the 9mm QR is more than stiff enough for me. One place you would be able to feel this is in deep sand (which is prevalent where I live) especially in high speed cornering. During these areas I actually feel my tire break loose before I feel any lateral flex. Now that is not to say it isnt there, but it is minimal at best (compared to my old RST M29). So you can be pretty confident that the 9mm QR will fit your needs, but having the hex-axle would be nice for quick and easy wheel removal I do admit!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey All;

Let me go back and reiterate some tech stuff. 

Regarding the pressure rating given. The 110psi max rating is not a failure point, but a balance point for the firm spring that some of the forks are delivered with. They will handle far more than that in a mechanical sense, so that is not an issue. The only real issues are that bigger guys will wear stuff faster than smaller guys by default. Smaller people can exert much of the same stresses if they ride really hard, but mass is a unique variable unto the Clydes amongst us.

How it works; The beauties of the air system in series with the coil system are many. Mainly, air compresses progressively, meaning it gets harder to compress it the harder you try to. That is great for ending stroke duties to absorb really big hits, but not so good for beginning stroke. Beginning stroke - the plush that many of us are after - is very well handled by a linear rate coil spring. Air is obviously lighter than a spring, and can be made somewhat linear with a lot of fancy valving ($$$). Some are getting close, but not many are quite there yet.

In the Pro, the coil spring is doing the work at lower speeds and in the early part of the travel. Nice and buttery. For a given rider weight and riding demand, a certain amount of air pressure will create a balance between the coil spring and the air piston. After the initial part of the stroke is taken up by the coil, it will begin to push the air piston off its seat and activate the more progressive nature of the air spring effect. Given perfect setup, both are working in conjunction in the middle third of the travel, phasing in and out seamlessly as you move up and down. In the last third of the travel, the coil spring is done, and the air spring takes over in resistance to bottoming. If set up properly, it is magic. A relatively light, inexpensive assembly to produce, that is very tune-able and works very well in a wide range of instances.

In my case, for my size and the way I ride, the spring was far too soft, meaning I would blow through the travel very quickly. The front end would not stay up, and this effected everything from chassis balance to braking power to traction. I steadily added air pressure upwards of 120-125 with no real result until I got to a certain point where the ride quality spiked and got really harsh, around 130. At that point, the coil spring was still not doing its fair share of the work, and shortly beyond it sacking out I was hitting the air piston with a thud. No balance in the system.

So, if you experience that type of symptom - blowing through the travel, having to add more and more air, past the recommended BALANCE level, and hitting that air spike - you need a stiffer spring. With the right spring rate, not only will the coil then work in proper balance with the air piston, creating the proper ride characteristics, but the damping will then work properly as well.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Regarding Expert -vs Pro;

If you are really hammering your bike, tending more toward Black Diamond type of riding, you might want to go with the Expert. Because it uses a coil/air system in parallel, a larger air volume, lower pressure design, it will tend to last longer without service. It also has stouter parts like the crown and straight wall stanchions that will tend to hold up better to extended abuse over time. The Pro is lighter and ultimately more tune-able.

I am assured by Mr. Manitou that both forks can be tuned to rider preference with the kits they have available. Well... that is when they get enough Clyde Coils in the pipeline! I'm told they are coming... like a herd of turtles.

Until they arrive, get your fork and deal with it for a while. If it works, great. If it doesn't, it is well worth being a little patient. I waited for well over a year for the first one!


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## bigmatt05 (Sep 11, 2012)

bigmatt05 said:


> Can any one point me in the right direction to order the Clyde spring?


I see on jenson I can order the xtra firm, but no listing for the clydesdale spring. Any help????


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

bigmatt05 said:


> I see on jenson I can order the xtra firm, but no listing for the clydesdale spring. Any help????


They are currently out of stock and will have to be ordered directly through Manitou. Talk to your LBS and they can get one on back order for you.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

AFAIK;

No one else but Manitou has had them. They don't have them either at the moment, we hear. The XX Firm, or Clyde, is a very new part and whatever has dribbled out has likely been in very limited quantity as they monitor what the result is out in the real world.

I guess I got the first one, after a year of working with them directly, on a voluntary basis, giving all the feedback I could as I worked through my tuning travails. Too be honest, I was very frustrated by the fork at first, but the process turned out to be interesting, I learned a ton, found an awesome company, and the end result is EXACTLY what I like in suspension performance.


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## bigmatt05 (Sep 11, 2012)

thanks Guys.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Does anybody use the lockout? How does it perform?


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Does anybody use the lockout? How does it perform?


Actually you turn -put the abs+ system from 7 position to the first. This position is considered as "lockout" and it performs solid, but you still can take big hits (the suspension still works there, but it's no so active as the others positions) had no problems with its "lockout" almost for some months until now.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

ocean_29 said:


> Actually you turn -put the abs+ system from 7 position to the first. This position is considered as "lockout" and it performs solid, but you still can take big hits (the suspension still works there, but it's no so active as the others positions) had no problems with its "lockout" almost for some months until now.


I'm actually specifically looking for reviews of the MILO remote lever. I don't like turning knobs when I don't need to. Plush on my Fox fork I turns the other part at the same time too easily by accident.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I'm actually specifically looking for reviews of the MILO remote lever. I don't like turning knobs when I don't need to. Plush on my Fox fork I turns the other part at the same time too easily by accident.


The "remote lockout" really hasn't gotten many good reviews (though there aren't many out there that do). The main gripe is that the lockout only swings a few clicks, so as you set it up you have to select a range somewhere between full lock and full open, but you only get 3 or 4 "clicks" of the compression adjustment. I have not had first hand experience with this but they did a review recently on twentynineinches of the MILO and that was their gripe.

Really, why do you "not like" turning knobs? If you are having to constantly adjust the knob then something is not setup properly. As I have stated multiple times, I have set my compression adjust (ABS+) to one setting that I found was a good compromise for when I stand and pedal vs seated pedaling. It took some fiddling but I eventually found it and the fork has not been adjusted since.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

gregnash said:


> The "remote lockout" really hasn't gotten many good reviews (though there aren't many out there that do). The main gripe is that the lockout only swings a few clicks, so as you set it up you have to select a range somewhere between full lock and full open, but you only get 3 or 4 "clicks" of the compression adjustment. I have not had first hand experience with this but they did a review recently on twentynineinches of the MILO and that was their gripe.


Well that's a bummer. Seems like it should be easy enough for them to make work right. :skep:



gregnash said:


> Really, why do you "not like" turning knobs? If you are having to constantly adjust the knob then something is not setup properly. As I have stated multiple times, I have set my compression adjust (ABS+) to one setting that I found was a good compromise for when I stand and pedal vs seated pedaling. It took some fiddling but I eventually found it and the fork has not been adjusted since.


Well I don't own a Manitou yet, and as I said my Fox was too easy to mess up by accident. So maybe you are right that I might find the perfect sweet spot, and that need a remote so much. Are you using a geared bike or SS? As that seems to be the main thing. On a FS geared bike, I wouldn't need one. On a SS with lots of standing it would seem a lot nicer to have.

I hear you though. I think I'm sold, accept I'm also extremely partial to rigid for a long time now. I'm not even sure I should get a squishy fork when the fat tire seems enough.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Well I don't own a Manitou yet, and as I said my Fox was too easy to mess up by accident. So maybe you are right that I might find the perfect sweet spot, and that need a remote so much. Are you using a geared bike or SS? As that seems to be the main thing. On a FS geared bike, I wouldn't need one. On a SS with lots of standing it would seem a lot nicer to have.
> 
> I hear you though. I think I'm sold, accept I'm also extremely partial to rigid for a long time now. I'm not even sure I should get a squishy fork when the fat tire seems enough.


I am riding an On-One Inbred 29er in 2x9 format. So not a single speed but a steel hardtail. I don't shift gears much, more of a grunt it out type, so I will stay in a specific gearing for as long as I can (which has made me a stronger rider). With that said, I do get some pedal bob when I am standing and mashing, however, it is not drastic. My normal ride is about a good 1k' of climbing to reach the top of my normal 5 mile loop (about 2 miles to the top) with lots of "XC" like terrain changes and ups and downs. I have mine currently set at 65psi with the preload (ABS+) compression turned to 3 clicks from full lock. This seems to be MY sweet spot as I can pedal seated and take bumps easily with great small bump compliance, but when needed I can stand and mash the pedals while only getting a small amount of pedal bob. I have ridden bikes before that when you do this you almost pitch forward over the bars but the Manitou has been setup for me that I get probably 10-15mm worth of moment/shock compression at max while pedaling. Oh and I have taken some HARD hits with this thing. If I had the skill this thing would climb boulders for me!


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

gregnash said:


> I am riding an On-One Inbred 29er in 2x9 format.


I think I'm sold on the Tower Pro as my next fork. Just need to figure out if I'm going to give up on rigid.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

Just got mine today, still need the heavy spring tho. I did manage to get it on a scale.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Well;

No matter what type of bike you ride, you have to rationalize certain things. If you ride rigid, you have to accept that you will have to slow down on really rough terrain because you simply cannot maintain control. Now, a lot of guys will puff up their chest and call BS to that and say they don't slow down at all because they are rigid. That's until a guy with similar skills and a full susser blows by them on the same descent. They probably still won't admit that rigid - like anything - is limiting in some respects. This is not an indictment, just an observation. For the record, I ride both.

If you have suspension, you have to rationalize that it is going to move. Pretty simple. I will contend, however, that if the components have the proper potential and are correctly set up, it will not be limiting at all. I think a lot of new suspension riders STILL make the mistake of thinking that movement means loss of something, like efficiency. To me it means the elimination of a lot of noise I don't want to deal with and a beating to my arms that I can gladly do without.

When I did not have the right spring for my Pro, I used the lockout because it was the only way I could stay off the bottom out bumper on super rough Black Diamond type downhill stuff. Now that I have the Clyde Coil, I have not used it. No need for it.


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Anyone in the 220 lb range riding this spring? Just wondering what air pressure settings you're running. I'm running the extra firm spring and about 80 lbs of pressure. Loving it and just wanted to compare notes with someone of similar weight and running the same spring.


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## brianwon (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm 220, ran the medium @ 120 and now the xfirm at 100psi. With the dial at the 2 oclock setting, it suits pretty much everything I ride - XC up and DH down. 

At first I didn't think there was that much of a difference between the medium (stock) and xfirm and -20psi. Then as I headed into the gnarlier sections with drops and kickers did I realize I had more control leading up to the jump/drop and I wasn't violently bottoming out my landings. 

In hindsight, I should have picked up the 120mm/20 maxle, but I'm happy with my 100mm for now.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Trailmaker, Do you know if they are making the Clyderide kit(see what I did there?) in 80mm, 100mm and 120mm? 

Adam


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

You know;

That begs the question; how do they change the travel? I have to admit I have no idea. I don't remember specifying what travel I had when I got the Firm, X-firm, and then the Clyde. Maybe I did, but I just don't recall.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

The manual lists different crown/steerer heads for the different travel lengths. I was looking at ride kits and noticed that they sold different kits for the different travels. 
That said; I emailed Manitou to get on the list for a clyderide kit and they never asked me which model I had.
I forgot about the travel not being adjustable too. Guess who bought an 80mm Tower off of Ebay instead of the 100mm he needed? :madman:


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## bigmatt05 (Sep 11, 2012)

i WAS WONDERING WHAT THE DIFFERENCES ARE between the tower pro and the tower expert? Can the same springs be used? I want to get one of these forks[leaning towards the pro] but will need the clyde spring. Also are there big benifits to having a 15mm thru axle as compared to the 9mm clamp? I am not doing any epic hard trail riding. Just regular trails and some on road. Was also looking at the new roxshox xc32tk 29er fork but don't feel I can get a spring for that. I am 280-6'6


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

bigmatt05 said:


> i WAS WONDERING WHAT THE DIFFERENCES ARE between the tower pro and the tower expert? Can the same springs be used? I want to get one of these forks[leaning towards the pro] but will need the clyde spring. Also are there big benifits to having a 15mm thru axle as compared to the 9mm clamp? I am not doing any epic hard trail riding. Just regular trails and some on road. Was also looking at the new roxshox xc32tk 29er fork but don't feel I can get a spring for that. I am 280-6'6


The Pro is essentially an air sprung fork with a small coil spring in series with the air spring. In other words an air spring on top of the coil spring. Small bumps are absorbed by the coil.

The Expert is essentially a coil sprung fork. The coil is in an air chamber which is pressurized to compensate for sag. Both the coil and air work together(in parallel). Because it is a coil sprung fork, it has a larger spring and is therefore heavier. Some people, especially more aggressive riders prefer the feel of coil springs and don't mind the extra weight.

The standard 9mm. QR is a throwback to road bikes. There have even been moves in some US states to ban them. There is a movement in the industry is to move away from them, towards QR15. To make your bike future proof, I'd go for 15mm. I personally will not use a standard QR on any mountain bike, front or back.


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Did some downhillin' this morning, and the fork performed beautifully. I hit full travel at times. 


















I love this fork!

https://i.imgur.com/lsov2.jpg
Close up


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Carloswithac said:


> Did some downhillin' this morning, and the fork performed beautifully. I hit full travel at times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wow is it me or is that thing WAY out in front... kinda slack..? :eekster:


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## Ride Red 31b (Jul 2, 2012)

Is there any guidance on the suggested weights between the firm and extra firm spring.....I know my medium is way to soft for my 220lb ass. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ride Red 31b said:


> Is there any guidance on the suggested weights between the firm and extra firm spring.....I know my medium is way to soft for my 220lb ass.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I currently ride the FIRM. I started riding it at 190# with about 70ish PSI, I now weigh 175ish and have it down to 64PSI but that is my personal preference. You can ride the FIRM at 220 but you will have to set the PSI pretty high. If you can get the X-FIRM otherwise just ride the FIRM with about 110psi and you should be good to go.


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## Ride Red 31b (Jul 2, 2012)

gregnash said:


> I currently ride the FIRM. I started riding it at 190# with about 70ish PSI, I now weigh 175ish and have it down to 64PSI but that is my personal preference. You can ride the FIRM at 220 but you will have to set the PSI pretty high. If you can get the X-FIRM otherwise just ride the FIRM with about 110psi and you should be good to go.


What psi would I need to run on the x-firm....does manitou not have a chart for this?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Ride Red 31b said:


> What psi would I need to run on the x-firm....does manitou not have a chart for this?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


As I've said before, I'm about 215lbs. and ride mine at 100psi. (120mm.) on a Banshee Paradox. I mention that because actual pressure will vary dependent on riding position (how much weight on handlebar), head angle and personal preference. That said, the Tower Pro came with a chart stuck onto the fork lowers and is probably also in the user manual. It should be used as a starting point.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Anybody ever compared this fork to a Rock Shox Recon Gold or Silver with a Motion Control upgrade installed?


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

The current Manitou Tower Pro is able to be compared to any fork at any price that I have come across, and it is better than all I have tried (this includes a Fox F29 RL and a Rock Shox Reba w/Motion Control) with one exception and it's at least on par with that one (the Marzocchi 44 MicroTi). If you are trying to decide between the Tower Pro and ANY RS Recon, go with the Tower Pro. . . . IMHO.


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## Ride Red 31b (Jul 2, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> As I've said before, I'm about 215lbs. and ride mine at 100psi. (120mm.) on a Banshee Paradox. I mention that because actual pressure will vary dependent on riding position (how much weight on handlebar), head angle and personal preference. That said, the Tower Pro came with a chart stuck onto the fork lowers and is probably also in the user manual. It should be used as a starting point.


That's what I'm reffuring to....I didn't know if there is a chart for each spring

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

yeah sorry, thought we had stated that back somewhere but probably a couple pages back but l like Ronnie said, there is a "basic" pressure chart on the left leg. A good starting point but definitely play with the adjustments as much as possible.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey All;

First off, let me ENCOURAGE EVERYONE coming into this thread in the last few pages to go back and read the entire thread. I know it is a lot of reading, but there are also answers to many basic questions contained within, plus you will also get a very good idea of how the Pro works from a design standpoint. In all of that there is a lot of inferred info on how to tune it as well.

As for air pressures, that is a sliding scale based on the coil spring. The stiffer the spring, the more air you can run before you unbalance the air/coil spring relationship (see previous posts). There is a sweet spot in the middle where the pressure allows both springs to work efficiently together.

First, the coil spring works the early part of the travel. If the spring is too soft, you will blow right through the early travel. If the spring is firmer than necessary, you may not notice a whole lot in the entire stroke. this may feel OK but it is not ideal, since you will not be using the air piston effectively.

After the coil, there is the air piston, and there is a proper air pressure based on what spring you have and how you ride. *Below that sweet pressure range*, the spring will be doing a lot of the work throughout the travel. If/when it gives up, it is up to the air piston to take over.

When the coil is done and you hit the air piston, if the pressure is too low, you will blow through the air piston and bottom. If the pressure is too high, you will "hit" the air and feel the harsh spike in the smoothness of travel that we have mentioned previously.

The stiffer the coil is, the more air you will likely need to balance that spring. with the Medium, Firm, and X-Firm, I added air with very little effect until I got to about 110-115. If I went to 120 I hit the air and the spike in the travel. it was VERY noticeable. With the XX-Firm (Clyde), I am riding at 140 and the travel is silky smooth all the way through with no spike yet no bottom, and a perfect progressive (air piston) nature.

No matter what spring you have, put some air in and try it. Start at 50-80 for 160-200lb-ers. If you blow through the early travel very easily, feeling like you are "riding over the front" of the bike all the time, you may likely need a stiffer spring. Keep trying. If you keep adding air (with no real change in ride) until you suddenly hit the spike (air), you'll know for sure.

You should ALWAYS run the gamut of adjustment in ANY suspension component - one-by-one - to set the boundaries for what each adjustment does, and what the adjustment range will be by itself and in conjunction with the other adjustments. If you don't you'll never get it tuned as good as it could or should be.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Just ordered mine From Jenson, can't wait.. wicked sale on the 2011's with the fork and Hope conversion to 20mm for my hub plus the firm coil was well under $400 ! NICE... 

1 Note they have the coil on back order til the 16th of Oct. rft: Oh well, at least I get to finally take this rechid Reba off my bike!! :thumbsup:


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I'd like to hear more detail about your exceptions to the Reba. They are ubiquitous, but I know nothing about them.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I'd like to hear more detail about your exceptions to the Reba. They are ubiquitous, but I know nothing about them.


yup, they are everywhere... most are because they supply them cheap to manufactures. The newer ones I hear are better but the one I have has been nothing but an annoying POS.

2 Warr services (once with Rock Shox once with the dealer) never worked right till I tore it down myself and went to the local hardware store and re-did all the seals with one's one size larger (thickness, not OD or ID, though those changed also)

seals are crap, leave it out in the sun and they would soften and bleed all the oil out of the motion control into the bottom of the fork which would hydro lock the thing into a rigid fork basically. I got it working but the dual air thing is annoying as it's near impossible to get the pressures correct with out one of the fancy dual end style shock pumps, esp the bottom as the threading is impossible to unscrew easily even when a wheel isn't mounted. And even when I did it was either soo hard it wouldn't react to small stuff at all or so soft it would bottom out way to easy. Had it 3 yrs now and it's been serviced/re-sealed now 5 times. It barely rides better than the cheapo fork it replaced. I've had many rock shox forks and shocks and every single one of them has had service issues with in the first few months. People under 175 usually love them.. people like us usually destroy them in just a few weeks/months if actually used on rough-ish terrain.

Now I am talking about a 2007-2008 SL unit which was a window display for a few yrs before I purchased it sooo that could be part of the issue with it sitting out that long.. but after a couple rebuilds that shouldn't be an issue. Plus I hear the upper models are better also, but why spend the $$ when I can get the Manitou for a good bit less and get not only better response out of it but also MUCH longer service life..


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

sry deleted. It was not concerning the fork eventually.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

YAAA<.. got mine today.. :thumbsup: quick install and run it once down my little Mail Box trail... because of course it starts raining as soon as I finish getting it mounted :incazzato: 

anyway, the fork WAY out performs the Reba!!! not even properly adjusted yet and it's noticeable.!!! it's definitly soft and will install the firm spring when they come in stock and is shipped (back ordered till the 16th-ish)

Weight is a funny thing, It's darn close the the same as the Reba even though it weigh's in a bit higher.. here's why...

Reba 100mm, QR fork was 3.7 lbs straight up.. and the Manitou with the 20mm thru axle is 4.19lbs but, the bracket for the brake is needed as it is a tab mount, plus you need to add the QR it's self as the weight of the Manitou is with the axle... So I weighed the reba with the brake bracket and the QR and it came to 4.09lbs.. now one other thing I didn't weigh is the hub adaptors for the Hope Pro 2 hub... the older QR units are rather large and insert into the hub and have metal rings to grip the inside of the fork, these things I noticed are kinda heavy.... where the 20mm thru axe adaptors for the hubs are a little spring clip and a small cone to space the hub out to 100mm width.. the axle slides right thru the bearings sooo I'm thinking I haven't gained anything and possible lost a gram or 2... :skep:


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

^^Nice! FYI: the fork looks so much better without the sticker on the right leg. First thing I took off when I took it out of the box.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Carloswithac said:


> ^^Nice! FYI: the fork looks so much better without the sticker on the right leg. First thing I took off when I took it out of the box.


ahhh the stickers don't bother me... they act as scratch savers.. when they get all torn up them I remove them


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## Viva Borracho (Aug 8, 2007)

thomllama said:


> anyway, the fork WAY out performs the Reba!!! not even properly adjusted yet and it's noticeable.!!! it's definitly soft and will install the firm spring when they come in stock and is shipped (back ordered till the 16th-ish)


How difficult is it to replace the spring on these forks. My tower Pro 80 mm is just too soft.


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## Viva Borracho (Aug 8, 2007)

thomllama said:


> anyway, the fork WAY out performs the Reba!!! not even properly adjusted yet and it's noticeable.!!! it's definitly soft and will install the firm spring when they come in stock and is shipped (back ordered till the 16th-ish)


How difficult is it to replace the spring on these forks. My tower Pro 80 mm is just too soft.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Viva Borracho said:


> How difficult is it to replace the spring on these forks. My tower Pro 80 mm is just too soft.


Depending on your skill and experience wrenching, it is not too difficult. Here is a link to the latest (2012) Fork Service Manual:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf

All you will need to do is follow instructions on removing the lower casting and then the section on MARS air spring service up to step 5.Remove the spring from the stanchion. Replace with new spring and reassemble.


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## cj_desmit (Dec 31, 2010)

First off, great thread! I just finished reading through all eleven pages!

Anyway... I just managed to score a very lightly used 2011 Tower Pro off of pinkbike.com for my Giant Talon 1. The previous owner said he immediately had the oil changed out the and the x-firm spring installed. I initially thought this was a good thing, however now I'm wondering if the x-firm spring is going to be to stiff. I weigh around 175-180lbs without gear and would describe my riding as moderately aggressive AM.

Should I keep the X-firm spring installed and just run lower air pressures? Will this negatively affect the way the fork works? From what I gathered reading through this thread, lower air pressures are better, but I'm sure at some point there's such a thing as to low...


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

cj_desmit said:


> First off, great thread! I just finished reading through all eleven pages!
> 
> Anyway... I just managed to score a very lightly used 2011 Tower Pro off of pinkbike.com for my Giant Talon 1. The previous owner said he immediately had the oil changed out the and the x-firm spring installed. I initially thought this was a good thing, however now I'm wondering if the x-firm spring is going to be to stiff. I weigh around 175-180lbs without gear and would describe my riding as moderately aggressive AM.
> 
> Should I keep the X-firm spring installed and just run lower air pressures? Will this negatively affect the way the fork works? From what I gathered reading through this thread, lower air pressures are better, but I'm sure at some point there's such a thing as to low...


well, he's probably still got the mid spring.. ask him for it... also the springs are under $20 each so buy a few and try them all, keep the one you like


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## cj_desmit (Dec 31, 2010)

thomllama said:


> well, he's probably still got the mid spring.. ask him for it... also the springs are under $20 each so buy a few and try them all, keep the one you like


I forgot to mention that he did include the stock medium spring. I feel like I'm on the heavier side for the medium and the lighter side for the x-firm. So, I suppose the firm would be ideal? Is anyone my size running the x-firm?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

cj_desmit said:


> I forgot to mention that he did include the stock medium spring. I feel like I'm on the heavier side for the medium and the lighter side for the x-firm. So, I suppose the firm would be ideal? Is anyone my size running the x-firm?


At your weight (about 200lbs. fully kitted) I'd go for a firm spring. If you are going to open the fork anyway, I'd try a firm. I've mentioned a few times, at 215lbs. I ride on a firm with 100psi. in the fork. at your weight you'd run 10 to 20psi. less.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> At your weight (about 200lbs. fully kitted) I'd go for a firm spring. If you are going to open the fork anyway, I'd try a firm. I've mentioned a few times, at 215lbs. I ride on a firm with 100psi. in the fork. at your weight you'd run 10 to 20psi. less.


ya, what he said.. I was hoping that with my latest weight loss _(down to about 185lbs naked from my 6 months ago weight of 201lbs :thumbsup_ I'd be able to use the mid spring,.... not.. :skep: .... it's still nicer riding than the Reba was, but I got the ABS set like 3 clicks from full lock and about 105-110lbs air in the fork and it's about right.. already ordered the firm spring kit when I ordered the fork, so just waiting till it comes in (Oct 16th-ish) 

I did read that the 2012 units are now going to come with the firm stock instead of the Mid.. probably a good idea there Manitou  but even having to buy the firm kit for what .. 12 bucks the 2011 unit on sale at JensonUSA is WAY worth it!!


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> I did read that the 2012 units are now going to come with the firm stock instead of the Mid.. probably a good idea there Manitou


Correct, my 2012 Tower came with a firm spring.


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## cj_desmit (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd rather not have to open up the fork if it's not necessary. Could I not get the same affect by keeping the x-firm spring installed and just simply run lower air pressures? I see TrailMaker suggested starting anywhere from 50-80 regardless of spring choice, so I feel 100 is still relatively high if I was to go with the firm spring. At what point (##) does to low of air pressure negatively affect the shocks performance?

Perhaps I'm just being stubborn and should just opt for the firm spring...


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

cj_desmit said:


> I'd rather not have to open up the fork if it's not necessary. Could I not get the same affect by keeping the x-firm spring installed and just simply run lower air pressures? I see TrailMaker suggested starting anywhere from 50-80 regardless of spring choice, so I feel 100 is still relatively high if I was to go with the firm spring. At what point (##) does to low of air pressure negatively affect the shocks performance?
> 
> Perhaps I'm just being stubborn and should just opt for the firm spring...


Well, from what I've learned, going too low kinda kills the whole idea of the coil/air spring mix as the air ends up being weaker than the coil and you loose your top out (bottom out) settings..
...:skep:


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

CJ... DON'T GET MAD...

I'm not picking on you, just trying to get this straight and done! :madman:

*The info is all in this thread. Put the pieces together, people!* The same questions keep getting asked.

Put some air in, set the ABS (compression) half way, and ride it. Use the MARS Air table for guidance. I suggest you start at the low end for your weight. Don't get caught up in numbers or sag or anything else. Concentrate on THE RIDE.

If it blows through the travel and/or bottoms, add 5lbs more air. Keep adding until it stops mushing/bottoming. If the spring is right, you will neither blow though the travel too quickly nor ever feel a spike (gets really harsh in the 2nd half of the travel). The action should be progressive, meaning that it gets progressively stiffer as you use the travel up, but never gets harsh and rarely bottoms.

THIS FORK SHOULD FEEL LIKE BUTTER. IF YOU'VE DONE THE ABOVE STEPS AND YOU DON'T HAVE BUTTER, YOU NEED A STIFFER SPRING!

Since everyone is so different, there can be no hard rules. Above is as close as we can get you. The rest is up to you. Now, go ride!

:RANT OFF:


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## cj_desmit (Dec 31, 2010)

Hah, no worries TrailMaker. I literally read through the entire thread before posting my first message. I was just trying to get a general idea of whether the x-firm spring was an absolute no go for my weight as I didn't see anything really pertaining to being OVER-SPRUNG as most everybody's questions were the exact opposite, geared towards being under-sprung.

I'll ride it with the x-firm spring first and go from there, as well as post up a ride report afterwards. Thanks again for the help.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

You're right. We've not found anyone who felt over sprung yet. Never really thought about THAT. :eekster:

FWIW, I did not find any great difference in ANY of the springs (medium, firm, x-firm) other than the XX-Firm (Clyde), and it was suddenly light years there. I'm not sure if that is because they are not that different, or if they were simply not working in conjunction with the air piston, and therefore COULD NOT work properly for me.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Agreed with Trailmaker! You really need to ride the fork as is, you will find that buttery spot and if you can't seem to get it after much tweaking then you need to change springs. I am your weight/size and riding style and I am running my FIRM spring at 65psi. With the ABS+ at about mid setting the fork disappears under me. Just sayin.


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

Ronnie said:


> Correct, my 2012 Tower came with a firm spring.


Anyone open up their 2012 Tower Pro from Jenson and confirm that they have the firm spring? I snagged the last one along with the last xfirm spring(sorry thomllama.)


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Flip D said:


> Anyone open up their 2012 Tower Pro from Jenson and confirm that they have the firm spring? I snagged the last one along with the last xfirm spring(sorry thomllama.)


I got the 2011.. waiting for the firm not the Xfirm.. It's on back order since I ordered it with the fork. The one on sale at Jenson is a 2011, not a 2012 and will have a mid spring,.. oh you got the last 2012... hey how much more was it over the 2011 that's on sale for $329?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Flip D said:


> Anyone open up their 2012 Tower Pro from Jenson and confirm that they have the firm spring? I snagged the last one along with the last xfirm spring(sorry thomllama.)


Just for your information if you really have a 2012 model, I was told by Manitou that the 2012 is issued with a firm spring. I guess they decided that more clydes are buying after market forks than 150lb. skinny guys. I can confirm this as my 2012 Tower feels the same as my 2010 Minute 29 in which I swapped out the standard medium spring for a firm.


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

The 2012's were $427. I really want to get one of the 2011's to finish replacing my noodlely 07 Reba's but all my wheels are DT Swiss or White Ind hubs so no 20mm axles. I wonder if Manitou will sell lowers with the 15mm axle?


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Oh man. I just sold a bunch of stuff and was finally going to pull the trigger on a Tower Pro, but it looks like a family of squirrels just made a nest in my roof and I'll have to take care of that before winter. Maybe Santa will be able to hook me up.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Flip D said:


> I wonder if Manitou will sell lowers with the 15mm axle?


They will. I have a Tower Expert, and I purchased the lowers from a PRO w/ the 15mm TA option. WORKS GREAT!!

I am thinking about switching out my Rockhopper frame for a Banshee Paradox, which requires a 120mm Fork and Tapered Steerer. I currently have the EXPERT w/ 1-1/8" steerer and 80/100mm of travel.

Looks like I will be getting the PRO when they are out in black, with the XXfirm spring. Manitou has a upgrade plan where they will give you $220 credit for your old fork towards a new one.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Does the upgrade plan require that you buy from them at full retail? I could probably find an old Manitou on clist to trade in.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Thomllama;

You have a PM.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Thomllama;
> 
> You have a PM.


ya, I saw it, just haven't had the time/frame of mind to read it, been busy at work...


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## Lets-Ride (Aug 1, 2012)

For those of you who are still thinking about buying one, i just found 2012 model for $319.18 at chainreactioncycles.com


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Lets-Ride said:


> For those of you who are still thinking about buying one, i just found 2012 model for $319.18 at chainreactioncycles.com


ya... good deal, though it's only for the quick release version and 80mm or 120mm... no 100mm :/ but the 15mm axle one is only $335 with tapered steer if you have a taper.. or the 15mm axle.. I got to say I'm glad I got the 20mm over the QR.. the 15mm should be just as good
:thumbsup:

and the spring kits are WAY more.. only like 13 bucks at Jenson... but those are still a wicked good deal !!! nice find man!


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## Lets-Ride (Aug 1, 2012)

thomllama ...I didnt even see the QR 15mm one and ya that is still a good price at $335.
I must be getting old cuz it was right next to the $319 forks I saw.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

They're still on clearance, but they are $190 more than yesterday.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I found a great deal on a 120mm Tower Pro, which is 20mm longer than what I have. I'm going to give it a shot, but if anyone is planning on taking their 100mm apart, could you please measure the length of the legs? It looks like that is the only difference between the different travels and I may end up cutting them if 120mm is too much. 

Thanks in advance,
Adam


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Treebumper said:


> I found a great deal on a 120mm Tower Pro, which is 20mm longer than what I have. I'm going to give it a shot, but if anyone is planning on taking their 100mm apart, could you please measure the length of the legs? It looks like that is the only difference between the different travels and I may end up cutting them if 120mm is too much.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Adam


:nono:It's not possible to cut the stanchions. The top end is press fitted into the crown and the bottom is threaded internally for the compression rod and damper assembly.:eekster:


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

That's cool. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to like 120mm anyway.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

oss all ready to thro in the new spring, thing rides sweet right now but I'm siting at 115lbs in the air chamber which is pretty much max... and I think i can get a more "pillowy" small bump action by installing the spring and lowering the air _(I have a broken neck so the pedal bob means nothing o me if I can get a better small bump compliance)
_
soo.. of course all the tool kits are missing the 20mm socket and 22 mm wrench.. had to buy those 

next question thou, the instructions say "semi bath oil" but what is the semi bath oil? I have fork/shock oil in 5,10 and 15 weight.. what ta use thou?


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

5W-40 synthetic motor oil. Someone posted this way back in this or one of the other threads. Obviously way thicker than fork oil.

Drew


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I posted way back when that in a pinch I had used 10w-30 Mobil 1 because I didn't know nuthin from no semi bath oil. I was told that was OK, if not "ideal." I guess that you can fudge a little, but I would make every effort to be accurate with the measurement. 7cc is standard. Up to 15 if you want to tune compression a little.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

EclipseRoadie said:


> It's really simple, take a look at Manitou's service section on the site. There are step by step directions on there. I haven't been able to find any video's.


OK, I just did mine, and the service manual is WAY lacking!! :madman:

Screw/socket sizes wrong, information missing, information added that doesn't apply to the fork.. bla bla bla... I wouldn't say it is hard t do... but Manitou's service manual makes it worse for sure!! I'll be writing a manual to do just the spring switch which will cover it more accurately!!

Also just installed the "firm" spring into my 2011 tower pro, and honestly, I don't see any improvement.. well not much... I was up to 115lbs and now I'm right around 90-100lbs, but it feels soft-ish still... wondering if even thou it's a 2011 if it got the Firm spring already? another thing I noticed is the blue push rod on the new spring is shorter than the old one.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I posted way back when that in a pinch I had used 10w-30 Mobil 1 because I didn't know nuthin from no semi bath oil. I was told that was OK, if not "ideal." I guess that you can fudge a little, but I would make every effort to be accurate with the measurement. 7cc is standard. Up to 15 if you want to tune compression a little.


OK, just got confirmation from Manitou that the oil is Full Synthetic 5w-40.. As Dru stated...


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Treebumper said:


> Trailmaker, Do you know if they are making the Clyderide kit in 80mm, 100mm and 120mm?
> 
> Adam


I emailed Manitou and asked them if they had the clyde kit available for 120mm Tower Pros and they responded that the 120mm kit was the only one available. It sounds like they do have different springs for the different travels.

Adam


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, just wrote up a quick manual to cover just the spring swap.. started a new thread with it so we can keep from flooding this informative thread with off topic stuff... 

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/manitou-tower-pro-spring-change-820262.html#post9804413


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

I have been talking w Manitou also, and they have been great! The only problem is still no spring... I like the fork and bought it to be able tune my own fork with the shim stack but without the correct spring for my weight(245), it's pretty much useless! I guess I'll have to go back to my old pike until or if the new spring comes out... BTW I have a isx-6 out back so i am a Manitou fan, not just *****ing to *****, it's just I'm so close to having my bike dialed in and the spring is the missing link!


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Hi guys! What is the widest tire you have successfully run on the Tower Pro? I tried searching the thread, but nothing came up.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Carloswithac said:


> Hi guys! What is the widest tire you have successfully run on the Tower Pro? I tried searching the thread, but nothing came up.


I'm using a Mtn King 2.4 (older version, they seem wider) with Velocity P-35 rims which widen it out even more, and there is plenty or extra room..


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Carloswithac said:


> Hi guys! What is the widest tire you have successfully run on the Tower Pro? I tried searching the thread, but nothing came up.


I've got a Specialized Purgatory 2.4 in mine at the moment. It is a true 2.4" tire on a Stan's Flow and there is plenty space.

The Manitou Owner's Manual says you must have 9.5mm. arch clearance and a maximum tire width of 63mm. (2.48").


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## ocean_29 (Mar 18, 2012)

Tower pro has plenty of clearance, 

The big Hans dampf fits with plenty of room too.


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## SleepeRst (Nov 30, 2011)

Hi guys. I just purchased a Tower Pro 2012 model and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. I weigh in around 160-165lbs, would the stock spring work for my weight or should I go ahead and get the lower weight spring?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

SleepeRst said:


> Hi guys. I just purchased a Tower Pro 2012 model and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. I weigh in around 160-165lbs, would the stock spring work for my weight or should I go ahead and get the lower weight spring?


I'd play with it a bit, but you might want the lighter spring.


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## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

So most of this thread seems to be about the Tower Pro. What about the Expert? I'm building a Tallboy and want a good 120mm fork for my 225lb. Should I even consider the Tower Expert? It only seems to be available with a 9mm QR, but its also $100 cheaper than the Tower Pro at this point...


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

dnlwthrn said:


> So most of this thread seems to be about the Tower Pro. What about the Expert? I'm building a Tallboy and want a good 120mm fork for my 225lb. Should I even consider the Tower Expert? It only seems to be available with a 9mm QR, but its also $100 cheaper than the Tower Pro at this point...


It does look like there aren't any available other than QR. I'd ask Manitou why and when.

I've never tried an Expert but I'm sure it works just as well. It is essentially a coil sprung fork. The spring is in an air chamber allowing minor sag adjustment so air and coil work in parallel. The damping system is the same as the Pro. Some people prefer the feel of a coil and are prepared to accept the extra weight.

There are some 2012 Tower Pros on sale at reasonable prices. Found this at Pricepoint:

Manitou Tower Pro 29er QR Fork 2012 at Price Point


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## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

I was looking at Pricepoint already, and pulled the trigger on the Tower Pro with the QR15. They don't have it in stock in the 120mm, so I got an additional 10% off. Sometimes its nice to not be in a hurry for stuff...


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Most All You Need to Know*

Hey All;

To make it easier to find information contained here in this thread without having to get bogged down in all the peripheral stuff, I've created this document. It explains most of what has been offered here in a more concise and complete fashion. It's still a good idea to read the entire long thread, as a lot of the peripheral info is useful, but it will be eaiser to find the distilled info by using this document.

RideLifeWithTheManitouTowerPro


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey All;
> 
> To make it easier to find information contained here in this thread without having to get bogged down in all the peripheral stuff, I've created this document. It explains most of what has been offered here in a more concise and complete fashion. It's still a good idea to read the entire long thread, as a lot of the peripheral info is useful, but it will be eaiser to find the distilled info by using this document.
> 
> RideLifeWithTheManitouTowerPro


hey, just so ya know there is a code/layout error, guessing it's with the wrap effect around the last image... double text line over writing each other...


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## brianb (Apr 25, 2004)

I didn't have a problem viewing that page or saving it as a .pdf.
Thanks TrailMaker, good info.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

i tried with all three browsers ....


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

*Not quite impressed.*

I read quite a bit about this fork and from the reviews it seemed like it would need a bit of tinkering to get descent performance - not "best". I currently have a Tower Expert and after some minor tweaks it is one of the "best" performing forks I have ridden. I decided to build a second 29er and give the Tower Pro a shot, after all its supposed to be a higher end model. It is a 2012 Pro w/ the Firm ride spring. Aired it up to 100psi and hit the trail. My initial impression was "marshmallow". It didn't wallow but it ate travel on the steeps or large impacts. I tried a little more air but it felt the same. I will order an x-firm coil and cross my fingers that it will do the trick. It would be nice if a range of coils were provided w/ the purchase - older Fox Vanilla's were supplied w/ a soft, med, & firm coil.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

More springs would be awesome. I'd be happy with the clyderide spring that was supposed to be available last month though.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Treebumper said:


> More springs would be awesome. I'd be happy with the clyderide spring that was supposed to be available last month though.


It couldn't cost much to include the coils but I am guessing the mark up for extra sales is where its at. My LBS said one reason coil sprung suspensions diminished was the extra effort to get different rate coil's for components.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

I am 210 geared up, and want to snag up a 120mm travel, 2011 Tower Pro (medium spring included), are the X-firm ride kits hard to come by for this fork? From the reading Ive done people havent noticed big differences going to the firm spring.

edit-Jenson only has the firm kit available, Id rather not run the fork near its air limits.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

- The page looks perfect in both Chrome and Exploder on my screen. 

- The spring kits cost $25. Not a big profit center. I agree they should just include them, bump the price a few beans, and skip the hassle. Or, offer with and without.

- I'm not aware of what the rate differences are between the various springs. However, it is very weight dependant as to which spring works best. I noticed no difference between medium, firm, and x-firm, but the Clyde was just kablammo perfect. Night and day.

- Don't worry about running over the 110psi max, but do expect at some point to hit the air spring wall of spikiness. At 210 the x-firm might be in your window. Sure weren't in mine!


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

You have the 100 or 120mm travel xfirm?

Only place I found online that had them was an ebay store out of Texas I've never heard of. But their prices were in Euros online...weird.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I ran into the same problem. I emailed Manitou and they said that any one of their dealers(REI for me) could call them and order directly. I don't think that Manitou ride kits are stocked by very many shops.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

I ended up snatching up that 11" Tower Pro cheap. Emailed Manitou last night they promptly emailed me back this morning. At 210lbs geared up I'm on the verge of x-firm/Clyde according to them. Clyde springs won't be out a other month or two, so I have an x-firm on the way to see how I like it. 

Im looking forward to tinkering with this setup.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

_Alberto_ said:


> I ended up snatching up that 11" Tower Pro cheap. Emailed Manitou last night they promptly emailed me back this morning. At 210lbs geared up I'm on the verge of x-firm/Clyde according to them. Clyde springs won't be out a other month or two, so I have an x-firm on the way to see how I like it.
> 
> Im looking forward to tinkering with this setup.


Hey;

I'll take a stab on this. I'm going to guess that if you ride "normal 80th %tile type trails" in a moderate manner, the X-firm will work for you. If you are a little more aggressive and/or ride those other 20th %tile type trails, adding up to 15cc of oil on top of the air piston might do the trick if you find it a bit soft initially. Beyond that, I can offer some deeper tricks! 

Keep us posted.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

That was probably a smart move, they told me the same ETA a couple of months ago.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I'll take a stab on this. I'm going to guess that if you ride "normal 80th %tile type trails" in a moderate manner, the X-firm will work for you. If you are a little more aggressive and/or ride those other 20th %tile type trails, adding up to 15cc of oil on top of the air piston might do the trick if you find it a bit soft initially. Beyond that, I can offer some deeper tricks!


I run an XC32 coil fork now with an aftermarket Argyle damper and surprisingly It works well with little brake dive at about 3/4 lockout. It's very rough at the end of its travel though. One ride on my friends Tower Pro had me sold! Pluuuuush.

Thanks for all your info, I will certainly report back.


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## fataqui (Mar 4, 2012)

*What worked for me...*

Trying to dial in this fork has been a pain in the ass. The biggest problem I found was trying to match the right spring for my weight. I have the 2011 100mm tower pro. I am six feet and weigh 232. I tried the firm and extra firm springs. With the 100mm firm spring I had to set my rebound to (2) clicks from full lockout and add 110 pounds of air to get the most out of my 100mm fork. But still landing on (2) feet or more fall offs had me bottoming out hard. I then tried 100mm extra firm spring and noticed the same setting I was using for 100mm firm spring worked much better, but I was still bottoming out on any fall off that was greater than (2) feet. So after being discouraged for a few weeks a mate of mine who had just returned from Colorado mentioned that he had met some people that found a way to lessen the air PSI load and keep the 80mm and 100mm tower pro fork from bottoming out for heavier riders. And the trick was to use the next bigger spring. So if you have an 80mm fork you would use 100mm spring, and if you have 100mm fork you would use the 120mm spring. *Note...* you only use the next size spring, and use the regular "blue plastic rod". Anyway, for me that worked great. And just by doing that I was able to make my fork work in a lot more situations, (more rebound control using less air) where I couldn't do that before, and now I can do (5 or 6) foot fall offs and never bottom out, plus my forks return rebound control is so much quicker.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK,
not picking on you or anything, but I think this needs to be pointed out,...people need to get in line with what a fork setup is designed for.... a 100mm fork is considered an XC fork... it's designed to take small bumps, allowing the tire to keep in contact with the ground and not bounce around like a rigid does over the smaller stuff, and to do the occasional mild drops... nothing much more than say a ft or at max 2 ft. and yes, that's it's cap and it will bottom out. if you are doing 3-6ft drop.. you need something with more stroke and stiffer everything...Right tool for the right job... It's cool you could mod it to work for your application, But Most people need to get in grips with the actual design and use of parts like this.



fataqui said:


> Trying to dial in this fork has been a pain in the ass. The biggest problem I found was trying to match the right spring for my weight. I have the 2011 100mm tower pro. I am six feet and weigh 232. I tried the firm and extra firm springs. With the 100mm firm spring I had to set my rebound to (2) clicks from full lockout and add 110 pounds of air to get the most out of my 100mm fork. But still landing on (2) feet or more fall offs had me bottoming out hard. I then tried 100mm extra firm spring and noticed the same setting I was using for 100mm firm spring worked much better, but I was still bottoming out on any fall off that was greater than (2) feet. So after being discouraged for a few weeks a mate of mine who had just returned from Colorado mentioned that he had met some people that found a way to lessen the air PSI load and keep the 80mm and 100mm tower pro fork from bottoming out for heavier riders. And the trick was to use the next bigger spring. So if you have an 80mm fork you would use 100mm spring, and if you have 100mm fork you would use the 120mm spring. *Note...* you only use the next size spring, and use the regular "blue plastic rod". Anyway, for me that worked great. And just by doing that I was able to make my fork work in a lot more situations, (more rebound control using less air) where I couldn't do that before, and now I can do (5 or 6) foot fall offs and never bottom out, plus my forks return rebound control is so much quicker.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> OK,
> not picking on you or anything, but I think this needs to be pointed out,...people need to get in line with what a fork setup is designed for.... a 100mm fork is considered an XC fork... it's designed to take small bumps, allowing the tire to keep in contact with the ground and not bounce around like a rigid does over the smaller stuff, and to do the occasional mild drops... nothing much more than say a ft or at max 2 ft. and yes, that's it's cap and it will bottom out. if you are doing 3-6ft drop.. you need something with more stroke and stiffer everything...Right tool for the right job... It's cool you could mod it to work for your application, But Most people need to get in grips with the actual design and use of parts like this.


You beat me to it. I just started typing and your post came through. I wanted to say essentially the same thing.


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## fataqui (Mar 4, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> You beat me to it. I just started typing and your post came through. I wanted to say essentially the same thing.


Where does it say the "Tower Pro" is just an "XC" fork. Granted a 100mm fork is not your run of the mill all mountain, dirt jumping fork, but all the good 100mm forks I have ever owned do just fine handling (3 to 5) foot drops without bottoming out. When the Tower Pro first came out, it was a "Reincarnated Minute Fork" and was labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" which if you ride any of those technical events have many drops off in the (3 to 5) foot range. So to me a 100mm fork that is labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" should be able to handle those technical things!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

fataqui said:


> Where does it say the "Tower Pro" is just an "XC" fork. Granted a 100mm fork is not your run of the mill all mountain, dirt jumping fork, but all the good 100mm forks I have ever owned do just fine handling (3 to 5) foot drops without bottoming out. When the Tower Pro first came out, it was a "Reincarnated Minute Fork" and was labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" which if you ride any of those technical events have many drops off in the (3 to 5) foot range. So to me a 100mm fork that is labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" should be label to handle those technical things!


5 foot drops on a 100mm fork, bull feathers. I must have stumbled into the AM forum by mistake.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

fataqui said:


> Where does it say the "Tower Pro" is just an "XC" fork. *Granted a 100mm fork is not your run of the mill all mountain,* dirt jumping fork, but all the good 100mm forks I have ever owned do just fine handling (3 to 5) foot drops without bottoming out. When the Tower Pro first came out, it was a "Reincarnated Minute Fork" and was labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" which if you ride any of those technical events have many drops off in the (3 to 5) foot range. So to me a 100mm fork that is labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" should be able to handle those technical things!


you answered that yourself right there... CAN a 100mm fork to that stuff.. sure.. mod-ed, over aired, what ever... but a 100mm fork that take those kinda drops isn't going to work on the small stuff.. and will probably break rather quickly... 

Ya don't use a Post hole digger to dig out a home's foundation and ya don't use a excavator to dig out a hole for planting daisies


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

fataqui said:


> Where does it say the "Tower Pro" is just an "XC" fork. Granted a 100mm fork is not your run of the mill all mountain, dirt jumping fork, but all the good 100mm forks I have ever owned do just fine handling (3 to 5) foot drops without bottoming out. When the Tower Pro first came out, it was a "Reincarnated Minute Fork" and was labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" which if you ride any of those technical events have many drops off in the (3 to 5) foot range. So to me a 100mm fork that is labeled "Cross Country, All Mountain" should be able to handle those technical things!


While you are correct that the Manitou owner's manual describes the Tower Pro as XC/AM they also qualify what that means:

"All Mountain
Riding based with more emphasis on aggressive 
XC riding with larger obstacles."

They also specify what Freeride is, which is what I'd say you are doing:

"Freeride
Forks for the roughest descents, jumps and 
drops."


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

oh... and also if you've read about this fork, it's designed to use the coil spring on the lower/smaller stuff, both air and coil in the middle and Air at the top when the coil is fully compressed.. by adding the bigger spring you're most likely just nullifying the whole air part and made it a strictly coil spring.... or at least reversed the purpose of the two technologies

again, if it works for you, great.. really ... if it works that's sweet... but not it's intended design. and you could probably get a straight coil fork that would work better, and cost less...? and should probably be looking in the 140mm size range


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

It's nice to know that this fork has that kind of versatility.


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## fataqui (Mar 4, 2012)

thomllama said:


> oh... and also if you've read about this fork, it's designed to use the coil spring on the lower/smaller stuff, both air and coil in the middle and Air at the top when the coil is fully compressed.. by adding the bigger spring you're most likely just nullifying the whole air part and made it a strictly coil spring.... or at least reversed the purpose of the two technologies
> 
> again, if it works for you, great.. really ... if it works that's sweet... but not it's intended design. and you could probably get a straight coil fork that would work better, and cost less...? and should probably be looking in the 140mm size range


I understand your point of view and my post was in no way meant to say that I use my 100mm tower pro for dirt jumping because I didn't buy it for that purpose, but I feel like Manitou really did a piss poor job developing their springs for the tower pro because their extra firm spring compressed has a rating of 184 pounds on average. That's testing (6) extra firm 100mm springs. So in essence the 100mm fork with the extra firm spring installed can only support 185 pound rider, and that is ridiculous. Really, test it for yourself, soft = 144 (average of 4 springs tested), medium = 156 (average of 5 springs tested), firm = 169 (average of 8 springs tested). Now as far as using the next bigger spring interfering with the air rebound. When the 100mm and 120mm springs are compressed they have the same compressed height, so I do see how using the next size spring would interfere with the air rebound phrase of the forks travel. Honestly, using the next size spring only adds support to the air rebound, which allows the rider to use less air to achieve a certain feel, which allows for each click of rebound damper to actual give the rider a different feeling. Which cannot be achieved with the standard springs if you are heavier than 185 pounds. Also, as a side note... I have always been taught that pumping huge amounts of air into your fork to compensate for a weak spring is not how anyone should fine tune their fork.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

I disagree that the travel designates the use of a fork . There are plenty of 80 / 100m forks used for dirt jumping the difference being the rigidity of the chassis. I feel most modern forks lack progressiveness that would come from an open bath oil / spring arrangement. I have added oil to both my Tower Expert (spring chamber) and Pro (above air piston) forks to add progression. The Pro is undersprung running a firm for my weight of 190lb , x-firm on the way.


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## Map204 (May 29, 2012)

This is why the "Trail" designation has become popular. I have the 120mm Tower Expert (granted I run a 26" wheel). I don't do anything more than 2 foot drops, but something that's labeled as XC is just too harsh and too delicate. 

Also, I'm 215lbs and it's perfectly fine for me. I guess if you're hyper concerned about the fork's small adjustments it might be a little disappointing, but I got it installed, put in the recommended psi and went for a ride.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

There is a LOT going on in this thread and it's all really good so far but a bit mind numbing. So here is my deal, I'm similar in stature to the OP. I have a chance to get this fork for really cheap in the 80mm travel. Are these clydesdale springs available? Should I not be going with 80mm travel and look to go to 100 or 120? is the geometry of my frame key to how big of a travel fork I can use? I like the sound of what this company has done and it seems like this could be a really good option for me but I'm new to the MTB game and don't want to find myself overwhelmed with this.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I asked if they had the spring available in 120mm and they responded that 120mm was the only size available. They also told me that they would be available by the end of October.
I'm still waiting.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Treebumper said:


> I asked if they had the spring available in 120mm and they responded that 120mm was the only size available. They also told me that they would be available by the end of October.
> I'm still waiting.


so this spring is XX Firm correct? I see on ebay the texas seller previously mentioned has an Extra firm spring available for the 80mm travel fork. the fork i have the opportunity to buy at a great price is a 80mm so perhaps I should roll the dice with it.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I doubt the x-firm spring will do me any good at 265 pounds. It sounds like the x-firm is good to about 210 pounds.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Treebumper said:


> I asked if they had the spring available in 120mm and they responded that 120mm was the only size available. They also told me that they would be available by the end of October.
> I'm still waiting.


I've been reasonably happy with my (standard) firm spring in my 2012 Tower Pro. Perhaps with all that has been said I could improve it by installing an extra firm at 215lbs. Also, I've been pressurizing to 100psi. Anyway, I had a look at the 2012 Service Manual to get the part number on the exploded diagram. There are listings for ride kits for all three travel lengths. Perhaps Manitou do not have them in stock but they appear to exist:

2. Ride Kit - Soft - 80 141-25690-K002 
2. Ride Kit - Medium - 80 141-25690-K003
2. Ride Kit - Firm - 80 141-25690-K004
2. Ride Kit - X Firm 80 141-25690-K005
2. Ride Kit - Medium - 100 141-26743-K001
2. Ride Kit - Firm - 100 141-26743-K002
2. Ride Kit - X Firm - 100 141-26743-K003
2. Ride Kit - Medium - 120 141-26744-K001
2. Ride Kit - Firm - 120 141-26744-K002
2. Ride Kit - X Firm - 120 141-26744-K003


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I think the poster was asking about the Clyde spring which is an xx-firm. I would think that they would make the xx-firm for all of the available travels: I am a little confused why they told me that it was only available in 120mm. Hopefully it's just the first one that is available.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Treebumper said:


> I think the poster was asking about the Clyde spring which is an xx-firm. I would think that they would make the xx-firm for all of the available travels: I am a little confused why they told me that it was only available in 120mm. Hopefully it's just the first one that is available.


yep, exactly what I was looking for. Though it's good to see those ride kits listed, essentially they aren't showing this XX Firm spring that is supposed to exist. The frame i'm building up currently has a crappy 80mm travel fork. I know if I go to 120 it's going to affect the geometry some but I"m not planning on keeping this frame for a long time, this is to just get me started out and next spring I'll be looking to upgrade the frame. I'm assuming that by virtue of being 250lbs that a longer travel fork should be a given for any type of riding I do but please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

I don't think your weight should be the determining factor for your forks travel. Your frame, bikes use and riding style should determine this.


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## bsgerig (Dec 9, 2009)

Anyone know how to get a firm ride kit for a 2011 Tower Expert? Can only seem to find one for the expert.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

_Alberto_ said:


> I don't think your weight should be the determining factor for your forks travel. Your frame, bikes use and riding style should determine this.


it doesn't,, the spring change has nothing to do with travel, it has to do with support..



bsgerig said:


> Anyone know how to get a firm ride kit for a 2011 Tower Expert? Can only seem to find one for the expert.


hit up Manitou


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

thomllama said:


> it doesn't,, the spring change has nothing to do with travel, it has to do with support..
> 
> hit up Manitou


guess I was thinking that if I didn't get enough firmness than a little more travel would be desireable as opposed to bottoming out? Don't know, I'm a newb but would love to hear thoughts


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> hit up Manitou


I did! I was given the part number (which I already had) and was told to ask my LBS to order one.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> I did! I was given the part number (which I already had) and was told to ask my LBS to order one.


so you are asking folks on the World Wide Web where your Local Bike Shop is?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

the mayor said:


> so you are asking folks on the World Wide Web where your Local Bike Shop is?


No, I've been doing this long enough to know where my LBS is.

I was replying to the recommendation from "thomllama" to: "hit up Manitou" and that they will not supply direct.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> No, I've been doing this long enough to know where my LBS is.
> 
> I was replying to the recommendation from "thomllama" to: "hit up Manitou" and that they will not supply direct.


he was looking for the Expert not the Pro we've been discussing, .. no they wont sell, but they can give ya a place to get it.. often time called Manufactures and asked for sales places other than shops as at the time there wasn't a local shop worth a damn I'd buy anything from... was just that location I lived in a short time... they know who's selling on the net


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

thomllama said:


> it doesn't,, the spring change has nothing to do with travel, it has to do with support..


What part of what I said led you to believe I disagreed with what you just wrote?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

_Alberto_ said:


> What part of what I said led you to believe I disagreed with what you just wrote?


just sounded like that org statement you thought the springs were adding to the height/throw of the fork, mis interpreted I guess


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## brainzito (Apr 7, 2012)

I've got a Tower pro 29er for sale - 120mm travel w/x-firm spring. Not my cup of tea.
PM for details


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

Put a 120mm Tower Pro on, it's a 2011 so we installed the firm ride kit shimmed with 3 washers as I await the xfirm to come back in stock. My friend is a good 30lbs lighter and with the same spring runs 105psi air.

Had a chance to get a good baseline air/rebound/compression wise today. 90psi at my weight (210lbs) was much too soft. Compression wise at 6/8 (8 is full lockout) I was still blowing thru the travel too easily.

Long story short I tried 100,110 then 105psi. Now I run compression at 3 or 4 of 8 and it uses about 90% of its travel for most of my riding. Only jumps or really really rough decents required more compression which I have plenty of to go up. Feels amazing. You know the moment you are close with the air pressure as the fork "disappears" beneath you.

I'm doing a longer, harder ride tomorrow. Some pics...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow yours is all nice and clean and unscarred.. Mine has a few marks on it, is pretty dirty, and the stickers are peeling off a bit. Oh well though, love this fork and yes, once you hit that sweet spot it completely disappears under you.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

It's clean because that was taken before the first ride! Won't ever look that nice again.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

I have the same fork. I received the email from Manitou that they just received the shipment of 120mm clyde springs from China. I went to REI right away and had them order it for me, I can't wait. Hopefully it won't be too expensive through REI.


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## brainzito (Apr 7, 2012)

Treebumper said:


> I have the same fork. I received the email from Manitou that they just received the shipment of 120mm clyde springs from China. I went to REI right away and had them order it for me, I can't wait. Hopefully it won't be too expensive through REI.


Or you could buy mine...I've got a 120mm Tower pro for sale. 15mm axle. Tapered steerer cut to 8 inches.

PM for details.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

brainzito said:


> Or you could buy mine...I've got a 120mm Tower pro for sale. 15mm axle. Tapered steerer cut to 8 inches.
> 
> PM for details.


He is talking about the xx-firm spring not the fork. Stop spamming the thread. There is a classified section for a reason.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

Yeah, REI finally got my xx-firm ride kit in. Unfortunately, they want $56 for it, so they get to keep it. I really want to support REI, but I can't afford to pay 3 or 4 times the price to do it. I could've sworn that the MSRP was under $20 for a Tower Pro ride kit?

Adam


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I think I paid $25 for mine when I picked it up from my LBS, think I paid that much to have them do a once over on my bike and install it...


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

REI said they would double check with Manitou. I hope they come back with something a little more reasonable. I am a little suspicious that it is exactly the same price as the spring kit they were going to order for my Rockshox XC32TK.


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## egr551 (Feb 6, 2011)

brainzito said:


> Or you could buy mine...I've got a 120mm Tower pro for sale. 15mm axle. Tapered steerer cut to 8 inches.
> 
> PM for details.


do you still have fork? yes if yes. Please PM me. Thank you


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## egr551 (Feb 6, 2011)

brainzito said:


> Or you could buy mine...I've got a 120mm Tower pro for sale. 15mm axle. Tapered steerer cut to 8 inches.
> 
> PM for details.


Please PM me if you still have it. I cant PM


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

my lbs charged me $35 for spring and 20 for install.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Treebumper said:


> REI said they would double check with Manitou. I hope they come back with something a little more reasonable. I am a little suspicious that it is exactly the same price as the spring kit they were going to order for my Rockshox XC32TK.


check FleaBay? seeing them all over (bike wagon seems to have a mess) for between 10-15 bucks with like $5 shipping .. all diff sizes...:skep:


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

just got my new Tower pro today and installed it. Nothing new to report. I'm a newb to mtb and had been using a crappy stock suntour NVX heavy spring fork. I bought this new from someone who never got around to building it up and they had replaced the white lowers with the black lowers from the Expert which is great as the black lowers matches my bike much better. They also installed the x-firm kit and included the firm spring. After reading this thread I decided to pump it up straight to 110psi. Tons of brake dive and the shock was easily going through a lot of travel. I ended up putting it up to 130psi and the brake dive is still there but not as bad but still probably worse than my cheapo suntour fork. Where this fork is going to pay huge dividends for me is climbing. When i engage the lockout and stand on the pedals it drastically stiffens up. Pedaling seated and locked out it barely moves at all and there is just minimal bob for standing climbs. so far climbing has been the bane of my existence. I'll definately be wanting a XX firm spring and if anyone knows for certain they can get their hands on one, please pm me, I'll glad paypal you the money if you can act as middle man for me. Hoping to take it out on the trail tomorrow and see how it rides!


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

The REI in Littleton, CO has one that I am unwilling to pay $56 for. I'm sure they would love to sell it. Otherwise Manitou got their shipment in from China a couple of weeks ago, they should have some left. They can tell you what shops near you can order from them.


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

thomllama said:


> check FleaBay? seeing them all over (bike wagon seems to have a mess) for between 10-15 bucks with like $5 shipping .. all diff sizes...:skep:


I doubt that any of them have the xx-firm. I will probably order from a different LBS after the holidays. My wife is going to kick me out if I buy myself any more presents.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

Cpfitness-how much do you weigh?


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

ran into a problem when changing out my spring on friday, called up manitou today. FANTASTIC customer service. They are sending replacement parts free of charge, no questions asked


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

i'm around 200-210 lbs geared up, should i be on a xfirm or xxfirm spring?


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

You are between them. What did you screw up that they had to send you parts?


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

looks like the compression rod was over torqued from the factory


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

_Alberto_ said:


> Cpfitness-how much do you weigh?


around 250, never get much lower than 230 and haven't been that low in about 2 years. I'm 6'3

I should add on to my last post that at 130psi I had very little sag only about 20mm. I'm going to put 120 in it and give it a go but def need to get my hands on that XX spring.


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

looks like i will have a 120mm XX firm spring for sale
i think it is too much for me


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Dan GSR said:


> looks like i will have a 120mm XX firm spring for sale
> i think it is too much for me


PM'ing you, I'm in NYC and I have a X Firm and Firm spring I can swap with you if you need it or I'll buy it from you outright.


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## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, I got impatient and cancelled my Tower Pro order... Really wanted to try it, but can't keep waiting on a backordered fork. Best guess from anybody I talked to about status was "maybe at the end of the month."


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

Mine just arrived today. New headset should be here today or Monday. Then I'll just be waiting on my wheels. I can't wait for the fun to begin!!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

those of you with the 120mm version, what frames are you riding on?


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> those of you with the 120mm version, what frames are you riding on?


I've got mine on a 2012 Trek Cobia. Still waiting on my wheels.......


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Okay, got my XX "Clydesdale" spring installed today thanks to DanGSR. Unfortunately, the weather was miserable here last night so it may be a couple days before I get to try this out but I'll probably at least take it out on the city streets and look for some stuff to test it on. I'm 6'3" 255ish and have j ust put 140psi in it. I may even go right up to 150. since I'm a bit heavier than Trailmaker.

Trailmaker, did you ever get around to testing different oil levels in this fork as well?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

I thought 120-125 psi was max, no?

Oh and I'm on a 2012 talon w/ the 20mm thru


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

fishwrinkle said:


> I thought 120-125 psi was max, no?
> 
> Oh and I'm on a 2012 talon w/ the 20mm thru


no, well documented in this thread that the so called 110 max is probably more or less Manitou covering their but. Also, it was noted that going up in springs also required more air so that the coil and air unit would be in proper balance.


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

just think about what the psi would spike to when compressed, another 10psi ain't gonna hurt


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

So what is the max press then? Ive read most of this thread. There has to be a ceiling just wanted to know


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

that, I'm not sure. At one point Trailmaker said that Manitou has dyno curves that go up to 190psi for this spring. He also stated that he didn't like 150psi with this spring but that he didn't feel that distinct "wall" at that pressure like he felt when using the softer springs. I do agree with you, there must be some sort of ceiling or at the very least us clydes most likely are drastically shortening the lifespan of our equipment.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

thx cp, i run a firm spring, 85 psi, click above mid towards + on the abs & mid rebound. geared/not geared 187lbs/173lbs. so now you see why i wondered about high pressures as i have no reason to go that high. i stumbled on this thread in july and for the most part kept up with it. very good thread TM!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

HOLY CRAP, WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!! keep in mind I'm a newbie to MTB but man oh man, what a massive difference! Granted, I didn't try running the x firm up at 140-150 psi and maybe that would have been decent but the xx firm spring with 140psi and I finally have an idea of what an MTB fork is supposed to do!!!! I only took it around the park across the street from my apt but there is a little mound of dirt behind a baseball backstop with a nice run up across cobble stones as well as a couple of 12-18" drop offs and things, certainly not a mtb trail but man what a difference. also rode her down a small flight of 4 concrete stairs. I kept hearing people say they felt one with the bike on this fork as opposed to riding the bike, I can now say I understand what they meant. Some of this feeling probably comes from running the 120mm fork when I originally had a cheapo 75mm so I've slackened it out and feel much more comfortbale descending stairs and the like but the thing really just rides smooth. Can't wait to get it out on the trail and get a better feel, I was very disappointed when I took it on the trail monday with the xfirm spring at 120psi as it just kept eating up travel and would still bob somewhat in full lockout. now full lockout was allowing me to stand on the pedals on the asphalt and really go with limited bobbing around. Riding around on the dirt I had the abs knob over at about 2 or 3 oclock position and it was great, no major brake dive like before. I think I'm really going to be happy with this. the lockout is really gonna help a big guy like me get up these damn hills and overall i just feel more confident riding the bike ROCK GARDENS BE DAMNED!


Trailmaker, Manitou really should be cutting you holiday bonus check. Any discipline of cycling is always tougher for us big guys which just seems so silly to me. As a personal trainer, I'm always encouraging cycling for fitness as our weight just eats our joints up. there is a stigma in cycling that clydesdales are all a bunch of fat people when in reality most of us are just big athletes. This thread is full of guys chiming in at 6"4" 250 which is basically a tight end or linebacker, not an Olineman! It's long time someone really gets some equipment made for us. My only hope is that a decent level of durability is to be had with this product. We know that we put more stress on stuff because of our size but it would suck if the seals blow out or something cuz we are running pressures where we are. 

One last thing, for the weight weenie clyde, my fork weighed in identical to a previous poster at 4.1 lbs which is a half lb more than what their website lists but I imagine that half lb difference could be due to it being a 120mm version. the listed weight they give is probably for the 80mm


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> One last thing, for the weight weenie clyde, my fork weighed in identical to a previous poster at 4.1 lbs which is a half lb more than what their website lists but I imagine that half lb difference could be due to it being a 120mm version. the listed weight they give is probably for the 80mm


Mine weighed in at 1950g after trimming the steer tube and installing the cane creek crown race. 120mm 15QR


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

glad you like the xxfirm


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## 29buzz (Nov 5, 2004)

Most of the info here is for the 120mm...what are big guys doing on the 80mm? We sell more 80's than 120mm here. Have only done a couple-but the riders were under 160lbs.

Thanks! 
Bz


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

29buzz said:


> Most of the info here is for the 120mm...what are big guys doing on the 80mm? We sell more 80's than 120mm here. Have only done a couple-but the riders were under 160lbs.
> 
> Thanks!
> Bz


What does rider weight have to do with fork travel? The fork fitted to a bike is based on the frame specification. Manitou has spring kits for shorter travel forks too.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> What does rider weight have to do with fork travel? The fork fitted to a bike is based on the frame specification. Manitou has spring kits for shorter travel forks too.


Nobody has discerned if the springs are the same across all fork travels and it seems that they are different but manitou has only released a xx spring for the 120

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## justaute (Dec 13, 2012)

All, a "mini" clyde here. I'm 6'1" and about 205#, not including gear.

I'm trying to decide between a new RS Reba RLT 15mm QR and a Tower Pro. For the Tower Pro, which Spring and PSI would you recommend? Thanks.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

X firm would probably be fine for you. you can experiment with different pressures. For me at 250ish the x firm spring at 120psi was only useable on the first compression setting after lockout, anything beyond that and it absolutely at through the travel. With you being 50lbs lighter than me, it would probably work quite well for you. In researching this fork I recall a few people around the 180lb mark saying they were satisfied with the stock firm spring at manf recommended pressure but I don't recall anyone above that being satisfied so your probably a good candidate for the xfirm


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

cpfitness said:


> X firm would probably be fine for you. you can experiment with different pressures. For me at 250ish the x firm spring at 120psi was only useable on the first compression setting after lockout, anything beyond that and it absolutely at through the travel. With you being 50lbs lighter than me, it would probably work quite well for you. In researching this fork I recall a few people around the 180lb mark saying they were satisfied with the stock firm spring at manf recommended pressure but I don't recall anyone above that being satisfied so your probably a good candidate for the xfirm


ya, I'm about 190ish and the firm spring is OK, but i'll be getting the Xfirm. I like the sush a little cushy but it's a bit too soft even for me. I'm guessing the Xfirm is right for you, air pressure will be personal, but guessing around-just under 100lbs


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## justaute (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies. Decision, decision... Reba or Tower Pro. I guess I'll just have to make that decision next year.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

justaute said:


> Thanks for the quick replies. Decision, decision... Reba or Tower Pro. I guess I'll just have to make that decision next year.


No question I'd go with the Tower Pro,.. reba's use "high" air pressures which is great for people who weigh like 150 or less, but when you start having to put super high air pressures into the chamber to support heavier people you end up with basically a stiff useless fork that has no small bump absorption and is only really does anything on nose drops. the pressures are so high there ends up being way too much stiction. you can have it "tuned" for like another $150+ on top of the price of the fork. 

Also every Rock Shox I've had or seem just ends up blowing apart after a yr or 2 and needs an expensive rebuild. (I've had like 6 between forks and shocks, all had issues rather fast) Again, I think it's do to the higher air pressures on the seals and stuff, everything wears out faster. The Manitous are cheaper to buy, cheaper to tune, will last longer. ride better...

one other thing I LOVE about the manitous,.... the reverse arch, it sheds leaves instead of sucking them in, still gets one now and then but much less


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## justaute (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks again, thomllama. Happy New Year!


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## cbd5600 (Jul 6, 2012)

justaute said:


> All, a "mini" clyde here. I'm 6'1" and about 205#, not including gear.
> 
> I'm trying to decide between a new RS Reba RLT 15mm QR and a Tower Pro. For the Tower Pro, which Spring and PSI would you recommend? Thanks.


I've got the Tower Pro (only one ride so far). I'm ~#205 geared up. With the stock spring and 90PSI I was able to run between 3-4 clicks from full lockout with minimal brake dive/pedal bobbing.

Halfway through the ride I dropped to 80psi and I had to run 1 click from full lockout in order to eliminate brake dive.

The initial ride was amazing, it soaks up so much more than the stock Recon Silver fork ever did. I still have to tinker with PSI to find the perfect setting, but it seems like the stock spring will work fine for me.


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## justaute (Dec 13, 2012)

Edited.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

pssst...justaute, you really need to start new discussion for that question. jusaying, no harm meant.


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

Ok, I've dug through this whole thread and I still can't seem to find what I am looking for. Does anyone have a part number for the 120mm Clyde/XX-Firm Spring?
Apologies if I missed it somewhere.


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Call manitou directly and talk to their tech support. 
888.686.3472


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

My LBS just put an order for two 100mm Clyde spring kits in. $22 each. Now I just need to find a black fork!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

amadkins said:


> My LBS just put an order for two 100mm Clyde spring kits in. $22 each. Now I just need to find a black fork!


The tower expert uses the same lowers and they are black. I boight my tower pro from.someone who did the switch so i have tower pro internals with expert on the sticker. The crown is still white but it looks good

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)

swildnm said:


> ok, i've dug through this whole thread and i still can't seem to find what i am looking for. Does anyone have a part number for the 120mm clyde/xx-firm spring?
> Apologies if i missed it somewhere.


141-26744-k004


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

Treebumper said:


> 141-26744-k004


Thanks, I've been in contact with Manitou technical support via email, they've been helpful, but never seem to answer this particular question. When I call all I ever get is voicemail.

Update: Just got an email back from them with the same part number.

Ride kits ordered.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

Treebumper said:


> 141-26744-k004


That's the same number they gave me for the 100mm version. Hmmm.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

*Tower Service Manual and parts # list*



amadkins said:


> That's the same number they gave me for the 100mm version. Hmmm.


OK, for those looking for the parts # get the service manual.. the Tower Pro is the very last page and has the parts #'s

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf

here's a screen shot of the list... doesn't have the XX firm.. sooooo :skep:


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## Treebumper (Aug 18, 2012)




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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

thomllama said:


> OK, for those looking for the parts # get the service manual.. the Tower Pro is the very last page and has the parts #'s
> 
> http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf
> 
> here's a screen shot of the list... doesn't have the XX firm.. sooooo :skep:


Thats because yhat manual is old and the xx spring is a recent development

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

cpfitness said:


> Thats because yhat manual is old and the xx spring is a recent development
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


ya.. figured that.. but just letting people know it's not there


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

amadkins said:


> My LBS just put an order for two 100mm Clyde spring kits in. $22 each. Now I just need to find a black fork!


So Manitou shipped the xfirm instead of the xxfirm. My LBS said that Manitou is not shipping the clyde spring right now for some quality control reason. The guy I'm working with at the LBS said that he was having a hard time getting a straight answer out of them - hope they're not falling back into old habits.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Slurry said:


> I had the X-firm spring and ~100 psi in the chamber, and my Minute/Tower fork would still dive like crazy with my 185 lbs. I also had four forks in a row, sent directly from Manitou, all with bad CSAs that would start to make horrible noises in a matter of months.
> 
> By the second fork, I didn't even have to pay to ship it out to them. Their CS is good, but it can't make up for a bad product.
> 
> The latest, brand-new Tower fork they sent me is currently for sale.


You werent running enough air

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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

amadkins said:


> So Manitou shipped the xfirm instead of the xxfirm. My LBS said that Manitou is not shipping the clyde spring right now for some quality control reason. The guy I'm working with at the LBS said that he was having a hard time getting a straight answer out of them - hope they're not falling back into old habits.


you sure the lbs didn't goof up and are trying to cover their ass? you got a guy posted above you with a pic of his xx spring and a few of us already have it and running it


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

hey anyone have an Xfirm-100mm (#141-26743-K003) they have lying around after getting the XX? kinda want to try it but don't want to deal with the shop as the 2 local ones aren't big on Manitou.. more Rock Shox/fox fan boys  and can't seem to find it online..

Did the firm but honestly, it feels wimpier than the Med was :shocked:


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

cpfitness said:


> you sure the lbs didn't goof up and are trying to cover their ass? you got a guy posted above you with a pic of his xx spring and a few of us already have it and running it


Maybe, but but I've only seen confirmation of the 120 spring being out there. The lbs has no reason to cover with me, they've screwed up many times before and been honest about it. I'm a patient dude.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

amadkins said:


> So Manitou shipped the xfirm instead of the xxfirm. My LBS said that Manitou is not shipping the clyde spring right now for some quality control reason. The guy I'm working with at the LBS said that he was having a hard time getting a straight answer out of them - hope they're not falling back into old habits.


Hey;

I took the liberty of contacting a friend indeed regarding this issue. Manitou has been really good to me, and I thought I would help them out, and you. Straight from Mr. Manitou himself;

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_Hi John;

Could you have this guy call us directly? (888) 686-3472. When we look at the thread, it seems there was some mis-communication somewhere. Anyway, there are NO quality issues, and we have lots of stock for 120mm fork spring kits. For a 100mm fork, it requires a different "blue push-rod" than a 120mm kit, but the same spring will work. We don't have this kitted, but we have parts and can put it together.

Thanks,_
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There ya have it! :thumbsup:


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I took the liberty of contacting a friend indeed regarding this issue. Manitou has been really good to me, and I thought I would help them out, and you. Straight from Mr. Manitou himself;
> 
> ...


Thanks for the note - I was going to call today and got sidetracked at work.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

Confirmed with Manitou that there is no dedicated 100 mm Clyde spring. For those of us with 100 mm forks, we need the 120 mm xxfirm spring with the 100 push rod already in the fork. The rep said there's very little extra preload with this setup.


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## benny b (Mar 12, 2011)

Great thread/info. Just got in touch with John @ Manitou to get the pn's- guess I didn't need to! All right here. Went for a jaunt online to find an extra firm (one firmness rating below clyde spring) 100 or 120mm spring and didn't come up with anything. Anyone here have one they want to part with for a couple six packs to your paypal? Thanks again for the great thread!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

benny b said:


> Great thread/info. Just got in touch with John @ Manitou to get the pn's- guess I didn't need to! All right here. Went for a jaunt online to find an extra firm (one firmness rating below clyde spring) 100 or 120mm spring and didn't come up with anything. Anyone here have one they want to part with for a couple six packs to your paypal? Thanks again for the great thread!


Send a pm to user Dan GSR. He has a post a page or two back in this thread. He bought the XX spring right out of the gate after reading the reviews but he's probably not even 200 lbs! He ended up putting the regular firm spring back in and did some tweaking and was pretty happy with it. I bought a used tower pro that already had the x firm spring in it so I met up with him and traded his XX for my X firm but he had mentioned to me that he may not even bother putting the x firm. IF he has decided not to go with it, perhaps he will sell it to you.


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## benny b (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks cpfitness- will do.


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## gamertech84 (Sep 23, 2011)

Thanks trailmaker and all the other contributors for your story and knowledge. It has persuaded me to purchase a tower pro for my hardrock.


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## joefi (Sep 13, 2011)

Still looking for a x-firm 100mm ride kit. Nothing on the web & just can't drop $50 through my LBS. PM if you have one that you would like to part with. Thx. 
Joe


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

joefi said:


> Still looking for a x-firm 100mm ride kit. Nothing on the web & just can't drop $50 through my LBS. PM if you have one that you would like to part with. Thx.
> Joe


Try another bike shop. I think your's is trying to take you. I got an X-firm for my 120mm. through my LBS a few weeks ago. I don't remember exactly what I paid but it was middle $20s.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Check out Outside outfitters. They tracked down my spring for the Manitou Minute Pro, xtra firm. I think I paid like $18 for it? Give them a call, really great customer service, you will talk to a real human in a bike shop


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

Wow, that's some outrageous pricing.
I paid $24 or $26 for a Tower X-Firm ride kit, and a Minute Soft kit for my wife's bike at my LBS. Definitely try a different shop.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Anyone know if I can get an xxfirm for the 140mm Tower Pro? I'm 280lbs/6'3"


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

^^^^^ im 250 w kit. I need a 140mm version as well. I have the xfirm in now and still have to run 150psi to get it even close to not sagging way to much...


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

mrgto said:


> ^^^^^ im 250 w kit. I need a 140mm version as well. I have the xfirm in now and still have to run 150psi to get it even close to not sagging way to much...


You need the xx spring. I'm 255 butt naked and run 150psi with the xx spring and its great. Its miles beyond the x firm spring.
Other posts indicate that the spring is the same for all of them its the blue rod that is different but you just use the rod that is already in the fork
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

cpfitness said:


> You need the xx spring. I'm 255 butt naked and run 150psi with the xx spring and its great. Its miles beyond the x firm spring.
> Other posts indicate that the spring is the same for all of them its the blue rod that is different but you just use the rod that is already in the fork
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The problem is the xxfirm spring is not avalible..... Unless you have a source


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

The email i got from Manitou when i inquired about the xxfirm said, "we are too busy with new product being released, it is sort or on the back burner right now"

Not too happy, I love the fork, but i need a better spring rate....


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## clayyea (May 6, 2011)

I've tried everything and cannot remove Compression Rod bolt. It spins like others have said. I tired the vise grips and pulled as I turned. I can feel it tighten, but it never seems to come out. Any other suggestions out there besides what I've read in searching the forum?


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

clayyea said:


> I've tried everything and cannot remove Compression Rod bolt. It spins like others have said. I tired the vise grips and pulled as I turned. I can feel it tighten, but it never seems to come out. Any other suggestions out there besides what I've read in searching the forum?


Air impact wrench worked for me.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

clayyea said:


> I've tried everything and cannot remove Compression Rod bolt. It spins like others have said. I tired the vise grips and pulled as I turned. I can feel it tighten, but it never seems to come out. Any other suggestions out there besides what I've read in searching the forum?





swildnm said:


> Air impact wrench worked for me.


I have the same problem in reverse. I got the bolt off without problem and replaced my Firm spring with an X-firm. I put it all back together and can not get the bolt to tighten up to the correct torque (5,1-6,2 Nm). It's obvious from the design that the compression rod is free to turn against the spring. I pumped the fork up to 150psi. hoping that the air spring will put more pressure against the bottom of the rod. I used my cordless electric drill with a 12mm. socket to try and get it to snug up but it didn't help.

I called Manitou tech. and they suggested an impact wrench but I have no idea where to find one short of going to a local tire fitment center. Where else am I likely to find one? Also I'm concerned as to how I'm going to control the torque and not strip it.


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

I had the same problem. Manitou said some left the factory slightly over-torqued. I put about 40 psi of air back in the fork, and turned it upside down. I placed the steerer tube on a block of wood and used my knee on the brace to compress the fork as hard as I could and the compression rod bolt easily broke lose with an allen wrench. I thought I had ruined my fork because I used an air wrench on it first and it did nothing but spin. I had to use this technique the get the bolt tightened back up again.

Hope this helps.


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

I ended up milling my bolt off......


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> I have the same problem in reverse. I got the bolt off without problem and replaced my Firm spring with an X-firm. I put it all back together and can not get the bolt to tighten up to the correct torque (5,1-6,2 Nm). It's obvious from the design that the compression rod is free to turn against the spring. I pumped the fork up to 150psi. hoping that the air spring will put more pressure against the bottom of the rod. I used my cordless electric drill with a 12mm. socket to try and get it to snug up but it didn't help.
> 
> I called Manitou tech. and they suggested an impact wrench but I have no idea where to find one short of going to a local tire fitment center. Where else am I likely to find one? Also I'm concerned as to how I'm going to control the torque and not strip it.


harbor Freight or northern tool for online order and for Air,... can just get a cordless impact/drill combo at local hardware/lumber yard and use a drive - 1/4 inch socket adaptor...


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> harbor Freight or northern tool for online order and for Air,... can just get a cordless impact/drill combo at local hardware/lumber yard and use a drive - 1/4 inch socket adaptor...


I own a fancy dual speed (high speed low torque - low speed high torque) deWalt. I've already tried it with a 12mm. socket and I have the adapter. Using the high speed setting, I can not get it to tighten up. I've checked with my torque wrench and can not get much more than 2.5Nm. at which point it just rotates.


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## clayyea (May 6, 2011)

I was finally able to remove the 12mm bolt using my air ratchet. As others have said, I placed the steerer tube on a block of wood and used my knee to press on the arch and used the air ratchet to remove the bolt. I did not have to use the air ratchet to reinstall the bolt. I used the standard ratchet and torque wrench. Thanks for the help!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I am not happy to hear that Manitou has ditched further development for the fork. It sounded so promising when the lead engineer Ed Kwaterski of Manitou spoke about he support they will be giving the fork. 

I guess he doesn't have enough time to ensure that projects are properly completed. Guess Ed can't be relied on to do what he says.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> *I am not happy to hear that Manitou has ditched further development for the fork.*


when that happen?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

thomllama said:


> when that happen?


Two days ago in this thread.



mrgto said:


> The email i got from Manitou when i inquired about the xxfirm said, "we are too busy with new product being released, it is sort or on the back burner right now"
> 
> Not too happy, I love the fork, but i need a better spring rate....


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## mrgto (Sep 28, 2008)

clayyea said:


> I was finally able to remove the 12mm bolt using my air ratchet. As others have said, I placed the steerer tube on a block of wood and used my knee to press on the arch and used the air ratchet to remove the bolt. I did not have to use the air ratchet to reinstall the bolt. I used the standard ratchet and torque wrench. Thanks for the help!


I would suggest running a tap through the threads if the bolt spins on you. I pulled a bunch of aluminum out of my threads because the bolt was over torqued and the aluminum bolt threads got galled in the aluminum threads in the compression shaft......

just a note also use some anti seize when reinstalling the bolt.. mine was dry when i removed it for the first time


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## joefi (Sep 13, 2011)

Get an Irwin quick grip clamp, long enough clamp top of the steerer tube and the underside of the reverse arch. Clamp that sucker and the bolt will turn.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I have bought a new frame, and gonna give the PRO a go....which means I am letting my Expert go.

1-1/8 80/100mm with Clyde Spring and 15mmTA HEXLOC. Only one like it in the world.

2012 Manitou Tower Expert FRANKENFORK 15mmTA And Clyde Ride Kit - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories


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## benny b (Mar 12, 2011)

If you find someone who doesn't want the clyde spring in it (I assume you have that spring in the fork now), I'll gladly buy the spring from you-Thanks!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

benny b said:


> If you find someone who doesn't want the clyde spring in it (I assume you have that spring in the fork now), I'll gladly buy the spring from you-Thanks!


The spring isn't the same in the expert vs the pro

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## vt29er (Jun 20, 2009)

TrailMaker said:


> FANFARE PLEASE!!!!!!!
> 
> Ring out the bells, the springs are here! Well, They're coming. I got an email this afternoon that told me the new springs are winging their way across the pacific as I type this and I may have one in my grubby little hands by next week. I know I should have just kept my mouth shut and waited till I actually had it in hand, on bike, and trail tested... but I just couldn't help it!!!!


Hey TrailMaker, Great thread, some very useful info! One thing I can't seem to find listed anywhere is what the travel is on your fork? I'm similar in size, inquired about clyde springs and I was told from tech support that 100mm springs in clyde stiffness are still in production? Are you riding the 120mm version?


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

vt29er said:


> Hey TrailMaker, Great thread, some very useful info! One thing I can't seem to find listed anywhere is what the travel is on your fork? I'm similar in size, inquired about clyde springs and I was told from tech support that 100mm springs in clyde stiffness are still in production? Are you riding the 120mm version?


Its the same spring for both, what is different is the blue rod

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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

vt29er said:


> Hey TrailMaker, Great thread, some very useful info! One thing I can't seem to find listed anywhere is what the travel is on your fork? I'm similar in size, inquired about clyde springs and I was told from tech support that 100mm springs in clyde stiffness are still in production? Are you riding the 120mm version?


Ummm...

I don't know for sure. As far as I know, I got a spring that was correct for my fork, which is a 120. It is possible that they have decided to make only one spring for all the kits, and just vary the rod length, which may be cheaper to do (??). I frankly do not remember whether my spring came with a rod or not, but I don't seem to recall that it did. In any event, Mr. Manitou had sent me a longer rod when we were working at figuring out this problem. It was only a few millimeters longer than any of the stockers I'd gotten with all the other mushy spring kits I'd had previously, and using it along with the spacer mod I mentioned previously did indeed improve things slightly, but perceptibly. This told us that were on the right track, and that it was a problem of spring rate alone, really.

I don't remember clearly, but I think I went back to the original length rod setup with the Clyde spring and all was bliss from there.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> Ummm...
> 
> I don't know for sure. As far as I know, I got a spring that was correct for my fork, which is a 120. It is possible that they have decided to make only one spring for all the kits, and just vary the rod length, which may be cheaper to do (??). I frankly do not remember whether my spring came with a rod or not, but I don't seem to recall that it did. In any event, Mr. Manitou had sent me a longer rod when we were working at figuring out this problem. It was only a few millimeters longer than any of the stockers I'd gotten with all the other mushy spring kits I'd had previously, and using it along with the spacer mod I mentioned previously did indeed improve things slightly, but perceptibly. This told us that were on the right track, and that it was a problem of spring rate alone, really.
> 
> I don't remember clearly, but I think I went back to the original length rod setup with the Clyde spring and all was bliss from there.


someone else recently established from Manitou that the springs were the same, just different rod length. I'm pretty sure it's in the preceding couple of pages somewhere.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I took the liberty of contacting a friend indeed regarding this issue. Manitou has been really good to me, and I thought I would help them out, and you. Straight from Mr. Manitou himself;
> 
> ...


hey trailmaker, you were the one that got the info on it being the same spring, different push rod! lol


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## vt29er (Jun 20, 2009)

So the word is 120mm fork spring is a hair longer, different push rod etc. They aren't selling a mixed kit of spring and rod anymore. I'd have to buy the 120mm kit and a x-firm kit for the 100m fork and mix and match rod and spring, double the cost. Supposedly a dedicated 100mm kit should be available soon.

One thing I wasn't clear on? Would the blue rod for 100mm fork work with the 120mm xx-firm spring?


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Any idea where I can get a clyde spring from an online store?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm still looking for the Basic X firm.. have the Firm and Mid.. want to try the Xfirm.. non of my local shops are manitou fans and have weeks wait time minimum


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> I'm still looking for the Basic X firm.. have the Firm and Mid.. want to try the Xfirm.. non of my local shops are manitou fans and have weeks wait time minimum


In that case I'd give Manitou a call. I phoned my LBS and got an X-firm within a week. They also don't stock Manitou.


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## joefi (Sep 13, 2011)

Outside Outfitters - Marmot Jackets, Niner Bikes, Osprey Packs Had them order it and ship it. Within ten days & $32 later, I had a X-Firm spring. My LBS wanted $50.

I purchased my fork from PricePoint. I called them to suggest that they should also carry spring kits and other parts if they were going to be a 'certified Manitou dealer'. I recently looked on their site and it looks like they are carrying more parts, but still no spring kits.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Got the PRO installed, and the xx-firm spring kit installed too. Gonna play with it a little more after work, and go for a ride on the streets....as the trails are all closed as the thaw out and dry up.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> To make it easier to find information contained here in this thread without having to get bogged down in all the peripheral stuff, I've created this document
> 
> [...]
> 
> RideLifeWithTheManitouTowerPro


Great document! Much informative, clear, and very well written, thanks!

I would suggest you to edit your original post, and insert this link there as well. I read all the thread, and I finally found out your doc. But I think it would helpful to the impatients to easily find it from the beginning.

BTW, all the thread is a great resource, thanks again!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

fataqui said:


> I feel like Manitou really did a piss poor job developing their springs for the tower pro because their *extra firm* spring compressed has a *rating of 184 pounds* on average. That's testing (6) extra firm 100mm springs.


You talk about *rate*, so you mean 184 pounds *per inch*, don't you?



fataqui said:


> So in essence the 100mm fork with the extra firm spring installed can *only support 185 pound rider*, and that is ridiculous.


How do you conclude this? Why would a spring with a rate of 184 lbs/inch only support a 185 lbs rider? That rate just means that the spring shortens by 1 inch when compressed with a force of 184 lbs. I don't see the simple relationship you're pointing out between spring rate and rider weight.



fataqui said:


> Really, test it for yourself, soft = 144 (average of 4 springs tested), medium = 156 (average of 5 springs tested), *firm = 169* (average of 8 springs tested).


As far as I understand, your figures contrast with Manitou's.

Here's a graph I took from the great document by TrailMaker, plotting Manitou's data:







For the Firm and X-Firm springs, I read a force of *105* and *124 lbs* 
respectively, when they compress by *30 mm* (1.18 inches).

Dividing the two forces by 1.18 inches, we get the rates of the two springs:

Firm: *89 lbs/inch*
X-Firm: *105 lbs/inch*

Are you sure of your measurements?

BTW, following your reasoning, it would mean the stock Firm spring would only support a 90 lbs rider--that's nonsense!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*MARS Air spring curve*

One feature of Tower Pro is its MARS Air spring flattens off significantly in the mid range of its travel. In other words, from about 30 to 80% of travel, the fork becomes plusher than in the first 30% of travel:







As TrailMaker brilliantly explained, this depends on two springs acting _in series_--one coil spring and one air spring.

I was wondering whether this greater plushness in its mid range is a plus or a minus of the Tower Pro. At first, I thought it'd be better the fork be linear in all the range from start to 80% of travel. But then I realised there's sag, so this lack of linearity isn't a big issue. When you hit a bump, the fork's already compressed due to sag. Therefore the fork's _active_ range (i.e. from sag on) is actually linear.

No disadvantage then. Any real advantage, though?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

^Busting out the science!! Well done.

I have only ridden my bike up and down the street, and have been testing the fork on the curb at the end of my driveway. Right now the fork makes 4" of curb dissapear, but there is still a decent amount of brake dive.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

What psi are you running?

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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i too experience quite a bit of brake dive. im no clyde, but i am 190#'s geared up. i'm thinking i should have an x-firm spring, but was told by manitou that i only need a firm. i'm running 90 psi w/ about 10% sag in attack mode. i dont really want to go higher w/ the psi and lose the plushness. what do u guys think? another reason i might want a x-firm spring is that i soon will be taking this fork off my xc frame and mounting it to a nimble 9 so i can huck it a lil harder. i should get a diff fork i know, but after spending all my funds on the new n9 im tapped for cash. thx for the thoughts.

anyone want to get rid of a x-firm?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

fishwrinkle said:


> i too experience quite a bit of brake dive. im no clyde, but am 190#'s geared up. i'm thinking i should have an x-firm spring, but was told by manitou that i only need a firm. i'm running 90 psi w/ about 10% sag. i dont really want to go higher w/ the psi and lose the plushness. what do u guys think?


At 190lbs. you shouldn't need an X-firm.

Have you tried increasing the compression damping?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Ronnie said:


> At 190lbs. you shouldn't need an X-firm.
> 
> Have you tried increasing the compression damping?


i put a MILO on it and tried to set it where abs was at mid way point. that was a huge PITA. do u know if i spent the money for the MILO damper if i would be able to have incremental positioning to full LO or would it still be as i have it now at mid point or full LO setting?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> At 190lbs. you shouldn't need an X-firm.
> 
> Have you tried increasing the compression damping?


I don't know about that.. I'm 190 and I really want to try the Xfirm, firm's OK but I got to set the air right at the high limit and set the damper's to almost full stiff... and it's still mildly soft, even for me. hoping with the X firm I can lower the pressure and set the damper to mid.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

My recollection from this thread is people around 190 were candidates for x firm and that as you go to a firmer spring you also gotta jack psi up beyond the range listed. As previously mentioned I'm running xx firm with 150psi

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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

thomllama said:


> I don't know about that.. I'm 190 and I really want to try the Xfirm, firm's OK but I got to set the air right at the high limit and set the damper's to almost full stiff... and it's still mildly soft, even for me. hoping with the X firm I can lower the pressure and set the damper to mid.


I know that I've mentioned before that I have a 2010 Minute 29 as well as a 2012 Tower Pro. At one point I did a comparison of the exploded diagrams of the two. They are essentially the identical forks. Most part numbers are exactly the same. I looked on line for the 2010 Fork Owners manual but it is no longer listed. I do however have it in print. The air pressure limit for the Minute 29 is something like 150psi. if I remember correctly. I could go and dig it out. The point is that the 110psi. limit on the Tower Pro I don't believe is a safety issue. Rather they have decided that the forks perform better (and I believe they do) if a more appropriate coil spring is used. They are kind of compelling riders to use the right spring instead of increasing pressure as in the past.

I'm about 215lbs. and had a firm spring in the Tower (and the Minute). They were fine, if a bit harsh with 100psi. I recently put a X-firm in the Tower and have reduced the pressure to 90psi. I do feel the fork is softer and more responsive.

It's easy enough to change the spring. I liked to know what you think. Let us know.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ronnie said:


> I know that I've mentioned before that I have a 2010 Minute 29 as well as a 2012 Tower Pro. At one point I did a comparison of the exploded diagrams of the two. They are essentially the identical forks. Most part numbers are exactly the same. I looked on line for the 2010 Fork Owners manual but it is no longer listed. I do however have it in print. The air pressure limit for the Minute 29 is something like 150psi. if I remember correctly. I could go and dig it out. The point is that the 110psi. limit on the Tower Pro I don't believe is a safety issue. Rather they have decided that the forks perform better (and I believe they do) if a more appropriate coil spring is used. They are kind of compelling riders to use the right spring instead of increasing pressure as in the past.
> 
> I'm about 215lbs. and had a firm spring in the Tower (and the Minute). They were fine, if a bit harsh with 100psi. I recently put a X-firm in the Tower and have reduced the pressure to 90psi. I do feel the fork is softer and more responsive.
> 
> It's easy enough to change the spring. I liked to know what you think. Let us know.


ya, I know all that, reason I want to get an Xfirm. the firm is OK like I said, but with the firm spring the fork has kinda a ultra soft feel and LOT's of brake dive. but ramps up fast as the air is on the high side. with the Xfirm I suspect the brake dive will lessen a bit and the top will lighten up a bit.. get a more "balanced" response. (1st 1/2 is the coil spring, 2nd 1/2 is air basically) plus I should be able to bak the damper off a few clicks.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

INFORMATION;

Manitou is working on putting together kits for the 80 and 100mm forks right now, available very soon. Some of the problem has been lead times from suppliers. Some supply of the parts exist to do this, but it is limited, and they have not as yet been packaged as a kit that is simple to inventory, order, and ship. These new kits initially will be available only DIRECTLY from Manitou. Once the supply chain gets to a better level of fulfillment, they will release new kit part numbers to the dealer network.

Why is this taking so long, some will no doubt ask? I have to agree that it has been a long time. *This is MY estimation of the situation.* The post Hayes Group purchase of Manitou is still in its early stages, even 5-6 years on. The company had prior to this slipped from being the industry leader into a virtually moribund state with very little new product development and a huge loss of market share. To date, the "new" company has been simply trying to make do with what they had, make some improvements to existing products to keep them "relevant," all in preparation for a huge and comprehensive overhaul of the entire product line. Too many old platforms and too many parts, with too little development. Not only revamping the company culture, but the products as well. We have already seen some trickling results of the new company with the recognition that the old spring selection was a joke. We have the new thru axle systems implemented. I am told that there is a TON of new stuff in the pipeline.

I have to imagine that it has been really difficult to pull all of this off at once, and they are simply suffering from overhaul pains. I have to imagine that when they get it all sorted out, that they will make a very strong statement with a very comprehensive line of high performing products to go with their excellent (trying hard) CS.

Please do note that I have no connection with Hayes Group and Manitou other than owning their products. I'm just an informed customer.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Ronnie said:


> That said, I recently came across video review on the Tower Pro and it's quite impressive:
> 
> Manitou Tower Pro Review - 29er fork test - YouTube


Inspired by this video, I shot a similar one, to see how my fork responds.

Would you experts give me some advice?

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/tuning-tower-pro-852107.html


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## ez5 (Mar 31, 2009)

fishwrinkle said:


> i put a MILO on it and tried to set it where abs was at mid way point. that was a huge PITA. do u know if i spent the money for the MILO damper if i would be able to have incremental positioning to full LO or would it still be as i have it now at mid point or full LO setting?


i recently replaced the milo remote with a RockShox PopLoc Adjust Lever i had laying around to my tower and it works perfectly. i can adjust the compression on the damper from the remote with my thumb while im riding. 2 turns either way gets me more than enough adjustment.


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## vt29er (Jun 20, 2009)

Trailmaker,

With your setup now did you measure sag with 140psi? Got an xx-firm spring for my 100mm T.P. and with 90 psi I'm getting around 23% sag. I'm 6'3", 240lbs. Have to sell one I have now because of a new frame and going to get the 120mm version but love the fork!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

vt29er said:


> Trailmaker,
> 
> With your setup now did you measure sag with 140psi? Got an xx-firm spring for my 100mm T.P. and with 90 psi I'm getting around 23% sag. I'm 6'3", 240lbs.


Hey;

I don't fool with sag any more. That is a ballpark deal to try and get people close to where they need to be, but I don't find it very useful, really. Frankly, I think it is a away to help people that have never learned how suspensions work, nor how to tune them. I tried setting sag when I first got it, and found it a waste of time, both front and rear (RP23). When I got near 20% or so in static sag, the bike was a bag of mush. Not even close to where I would want it to actually RIDE it.

I toss some air in, and then take my bike and my pump and go ride how I ride. It doesn't take long to dial it from there.


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## Flip D (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks Trailmaker.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

You have a PM.



Flip D said:


> Well, just got an email back from Manitou. Manitou says that they are not set up to sell directly to the customer. Anybody successfully order one directly from M? My LBS is 1.5 hours away so I'm not thrilled with two afternoon trips to get a spring, not to mention they're a Specialized dealer and I feel like I lose a little bit of my soul whenever I walk in there.
> 
> Anybody have a LBS that is willing to ship springs? I have a 120 Tower Pro.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

OK, I'm thinking about buying a 100mm Tower Pro so I can get a 15mm front end on my Canfield. I will need a heavier spring, ideally the XX-Firm, but the best I can find to order online is an X-Firm. The 120mm and 100mm ride kits have different part numbers. Would the increased length of the 120mm spring add to the spring rate if I install it in a 100mm fork, effectively making it closer to an XX-Firm? Or, are the springs the same for the 100mm and 120mm anyway?

FWIW, the bike currently has a Minute 29 on it, with the stock spring and about 130 psi, and I've got no complaints with the way it works. That's got the old damper system in it though so that's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Also, while I'm at it, is there anything I need to have on hand to change the spring out besides tools and oil? Special seal lube or anything like that? Also, what weight oil will I need?

Thanks :thumbsup:


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i believe springs are the same but the rods are different in length. i used 5w-30 full synth, but i believe it was recommended to use 10w-30. its just a bath oil so i dont think its that critical. thomllama's vid should say. now if it were oil for the top side of the damper then yes its critical you use proper suspension oil made for compression. sorry for the vague answers, but i hope it helps.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> OK, I'm thinking about buying a 100mm Tower Pro so I can get a 15mm front end on my Canfield. I will need a heavier spring, ideally the XX-Firm, but the best I can find to order online is an X-Firm. The 120mm and 100mm ride kits have different part numbers. Would the increased length of the 120mm spring add to the spring rate if I install it in a 100mm fork, effectively making it closer to an XX-Firm? Or, are the springs the same for the 100mm and 120mm anyway?
> 
> FWIW, the bike currently has a Minute 29 on it, with the stock spring and about 130 psi, and I've got no complaints with the way it works. That's got the old damper system in it though so that's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
> 
> ...


ya.. thanks Fishwrinkle.. my vid with a link to the PDF manual with a list of tools I assembled from the Manitou's info...
Trail Tire TV: Manitou Tune Spring Install Video

Oil should actually be *5W-40 and fully synthetic only!!* _(but honestly i agree it probably doesn't matter all THAT much, but I prefer using what Manitou suggests)_
Torque wrench is highly recommended!

I believe the springs and the rod are diff lengths but not 100% on that,.. hit up manitou service, they are pretty helpful

by the way,.. where did you see an X-firm online... all I've found a firm's ..? kinda want to try and X-firm...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> by the way,.. where did you see an X-firm online... all I've found a firm's ..? kinda want to try and X-firm...


From the "In stock for shipping, 4-5 days" note I'd say they have to order them from Manitou and then ship, but you can order them at 
Manitou Min 29Er/Tower Pro Ride Kit Xf, 120mm Extra Firm
Manitou Min 29Er/Tower Pro Ride Kit Xf, 100mm Extra Firm

Is that any certain kind of grease on the spring or is it just old nasty red chassis grease?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> From the "In stock for shipping, 4-5 days" note I'd say they have to order them from Manitou and then ship, but you can order them at
> Manitou Min 29Er/Tower Pro Ride Kit Xf, 120mm Extra Firm
> Manitou Min 29Er/Tower Pro Ride Kit Xf, 100mm Extra Firm
> 
> Is that any certain kind of grease on the spring or is it just old nasty red chassis grease?


thanks.. did a quick search just after posting and found a lot of places seem to have them in stock now.. guess Manitou got a new shipment out 

As to grease, they prefer a decent waterproof type, but really don't need much and if what's in there is clean just wipe a little on the new spring,.. it's just to keep the mechanical spring slipping on the sidewall of the stanchion. and good bearing grease is fine. old fashion chassis grease might be a bit on the heavy/thick side.. again.. hit up Manitou.. I usually get responses to E-mails with in 24 hrs from them.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks

From what I'm finding, nobody stocks them but lots of people are offering them. Everybody wants a week lead time before shipping.

The fork I bought is a 2012 so it *should* have a Firm spring in it - I think. That won't be perfect but it should be usable until I can get an X-firm or XX-firm.

BTW, looking through the thread for part numbers I found the word from Manitou is the springs are the same for 100 vs 120; the only difference is the blue rod.
http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-compone...ydesdales-techical-751708-5.html#post10094181

They're talking specifically about the XX-Firm spring there, but logic says the same would be true for all springs.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> Thanks
> 
> From what I'm finding, nobody stocks them but lots of people are offering them. Everybody wants a week lead time before shipping.
> ----


these guys i found have them in stock... with free shipping (well not the XX but the x-firm they do) only hold up is the slow shipping if taking the free (and all others are ridiculous in $$$ so not worth faster )

Manitou


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I already ordered the x-firm for $13 including shipping, this time of year chances are good it'll be raining next weekend anyway. I did make sure the place I ordered my Stan's conversion from had it in stock so if it turns out to be nice next week I'll have that and the fork so I can ride on the factory installed spring.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Nice find bob thx.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Little background&#8230;.*Currently have two forks prior to the Tower Pro to compare so take it for what it's worth. I have a Niner Jet 9 that I purchased slightly used with maybe 100 miles on the F29 RLC fork as well as the previous 2007 REBA SL Dual air that was on my Spot prior to the Tower. SO&#8230; in summary I've never actually had a "new" fork so these are my initial thoughts of this fork and I have some "breaking in" to do per Randy at Manitou.

*Initial thoughts&#8230;.*Got a great deal on the fork from Price Point and installed asap however due to rain and other priorities I could only look at the thing for about a month. I had ordered the X- Firm spring due to my weight goal of 200lbs (in the process of getting there 225 to currently 208) and installed. Probably get the XX-Firm when released&#8230; (more on that later I suppose)

I was finally able to get out for a good 20 mile ride that has everything from rocks, roots, berms, climbs and downhill sections. First thing I thought was this thing is plush.. maybe too plush for a SS application with the pedal mashing on climbs. I found that locked out, or almost, was the best way for this as it would be on the REBA too however I was trying to find the sweet spot so that I didn't need to do the lever flipping the entire ride. The fork was fantastic on the downhill sections essentially taking out all the chatter of the roots and other small stuff (spring action here).

There were some things that I did notice on this fork just on this initial ride (I know I need some time to break it in&#8230 that may or may not be normal&#8230; so here they are.
- I hear a prominent sucking sound when riding after big hits. I know it's the fluid being cycles through the damper and what not but I've never heard it this loud on other forks that i or my ridinb buddies have

- In the first maybe 1cm of travel the seals/ stations feel sticky and almost loose (imagine standing next to bike and just pressing down on the bars).

- Stantions seem to be not as stiff as other forks under braking (can see them flex)

Heading out for another ride today same trail. I've since put in an additional 5ml of Synthetic oil (5w-40) to the air side piston to see if it helps to firm up the fork a bit and the same 100PSI with maybe 1/3 off rebound on from full. I know the initial travel is based off the spring so not expecting too much other than just getting used to the ride&#8230; it is good.. just new to me.

Let me know your thoughts and first ride experiences. I'm not goingto put a full review untill I've had time to break in the fork but appreciate any and all comments/ suggestions.

tom


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

:nono:


Ral83178 said:


> - I hear a prominent sucking sound when riding after big hits. I know it's the fluid being cycles through the damper and what not but I've never heard it this loud on other forks that i or my ridinb buddies have


I believe it's normal. I also hear a sucking sound on both my Minute Expert and my Tower Pro--although I'd describe it as weak, not prominent.



> - In the first maybe 1cm of travel the seals/ stations feel sticky and almost loose (imagine standing next to bike and just pressing down on the bars).


I'm not a native speaker, but I don't understand how seals can possibly be both sticky and loose. Anyway, some friction has been reported by others too, and I also feel compression is not smooth when pressing down on the handlebars.



> - Stantions seem to be not as stiff as other forks under braking (can see them flex)


Yes, I agree they're flexy. But I don't have other 29er forks to compare. And people say it's normal for 32 mm stanchions, and on par with other 32 mm forks. Don't know.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Ral83178 said:


> - Stantions seem to be not as stiff as other forks under braking (can see them flex)


I had a rigid steel Bianchi single speed at one time, the first bike I had with disc brakes. I was cruising along on pavement, looking at the brakes, and pulled the lever, don't remember why. I thought the fork was gong to fold up. Never did that again, it scared the living crap out of me. Moral of the story: They all flex under braking.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

Ok.... So tonight's ride was awesome. I think I got it!

The 5ml of oil addition was the ticket. I was,able to run the ABS in the middle allowing me to go stiffer or more supple from there. 

All in all very pleased and it just seems to be getting better and better.

As for the seal sticking and being loose.... Tough to explain. So if you press down on the bars it takes a little to get it into its travel and then it seems to have a dead spot maybe for about a half cm. doesn't feel like anything is loose but just a bit of play laterally... Tips is all gone once on the bike in the sag though.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I have been running the Tower Pro with the FIRM spring for about 2yrs now and absolutely LOVE this fork. I started riding at 225 and am not at a solid 185 and the FIRM still rides perfectly. I have found that about 70PSI with the lock-out half way seems to be the sweet spot for me (riding style, terrain, weight, etc) and other than adjusting it at the beginning of the season this year I have not touched it once.

As for the sound, I have the same things. I don't know that I would call it prominent but when I stand and mash you can definitely hear it. No leaks or anything so I think it is just how their system cycles the fluid.

The "sticktion" you are talking about is pretty normal as well and I think it is more about finding the right settings then anything else. You might have your preload or air to high.

I am really going to have to try the addition of the 5w40 in the station to see how that changes the ride, you guys have really peeked my curiosity.


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Just wanted to say thanks to you all for this thread. Because if all youre input, I should be able to fast track the perfect setup. I'm researching a fork for a spearfish build. Was down to the RLC 32 or the Tower. I have a minute pro on one bike, and observed a lot of the things you mention. Originally shipped with a med spring. In talking with Randy at manitou. I purchased a firm spring. Big improvement but I wonder if I'd be better off with a x firm(195 or so geared up). 
I contacted Randy today with a few pre purchase questions. I told him about the thread, my project and thoughts . Once again the man was a huge help. Emailed me some info about tuning with shim stacks etc.
Anyone around my weight running the x firm spring and wha are you're thought ?
Thanks, Tom


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

trodaq said:


> Just wanted to say thanks to you all for this thread. Because if all youre input, I should be able to fast track the perfect setup. I'm researching a fork for a spearfish build. Was down to the RLC 32 or the Tower. I have a minute pro on one bike, and observed a lot of the things you mention. Originally shipped with a med spring. In talking with Randy at manitou. I purchased a firm spring. Big improvement but I wonder if I'd be better off with a x firm(195 or so geared up).
> I contacted Randy today with a few pre purchase questions. I told him about the thread, my project and thoughts . Once again the man was a huge help. Emailed me some info about tuning with shim stacks etc.
> Anyone around my weight running the x firm spring and wha are you're thought ?
> Thanks, Tom


I have mine coming..will install ASAP upon receiving.. I'm right around that weight and thinking it'll be good,.. but would love to see the shim stack info.. ? something you can post or forward as PDF?


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

thomllama said:


> I have mine coming..will install ASAP upon receiving.. I'm right around that weight and thinking it'll be good,.. but would love to see the shim stack info.. ? something you can post or forward as PDF?[/QUOTE
> 
> I tried to copy and managed to deleted all record of it. I emailed him asking to resend. Ill try again tomorrow.
> Tom


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

My specs and tuning thus far.

Current weight - 208 w/o pack
Spring - X- firm
Air - 100 psi
Addl 5ml of 5-W40 synthetic oil in air side
Rebound - middle
Mars/ ABS - middle


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

trodaq, that info, once you get it, would be rad if you posted. like thomllama, i too have my xf spring coming from niagara cycle (thx wv bob!). geared up i'm 192-195 so im ready to start micro-tuning this fork. soon it will be mounted to the new canfield N9, but that another giddy story. oh by the way im running 90-95 psi with abs and rebound at mid with firm spring. i like the mid to end spring rate but just get a lil too much dive in hard corners and braking. it actually bucked me good today and i was in a heavy foot light hands attack


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

When I get it I'll try again. If I cant I could forward it to one of you guys that could.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Sounds good


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fat man about to get on the tower ...


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Okay. Randy resent the pdf for shim stack tuning. Anyone out there want to give it a shot at posting it here? Shoot me your email.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

pm sent


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Alright, just gonna pitch in here so I remember to add my results. I am running xtra firm on a minute pro (the 26" version), and am getting very scary bad brake dive, cycling through all my travel in moderate braking strength. I can get it under control with the lockout one click from full lockout and slowing down the rebound quite a bit. Lose the plush, but still get decent response with larger hits. I still cycle through all the travel on novice trails, which shouldn't be happening. I am a bit over 250. Will be playing with the shim stack to try to get this under control. I had a helluva time just finding the xtra firm spring, so if anyone has a source for the xxfirm, I would like to know where. As it is, however, I will still mess with the shim stack before swapping the spring again. Hopefully, I also fixed the leak (happened on the first trail after spring swap...) that dumped fork oil all over my rotor and pads, which has kept the bike in pieces in the garage for a month... I was told to basically just take it apart and refill it, because oil may have just not ended up in the stanchions and was leaking out of the lowers. When the weather cools down, I will try to get it back together for a test ride. Riding season is over here, unfortunately. It's dangerously hot (already in the triple digits, will average around 114 through summer), so I would need to drag it out of town up the mountains to get riding in from June through September or so...


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Bikemaya said:


> Alright, just gonna pitch in here so I remember to add my results. I am running xtra firm on a minute pro (the 26" version), and am getting very scary bad brake dive, cycling through all my travel in moderate braking strength. I can get it under control with the lockout one click from full lockout and slowing down the rebound quite a bit. Lose the plush, but still get decent response with larger hits. I still cycle through all the travel on novice trails, which shouldn't be happening. I am a bit over 250. Will be playing with the shim stack to try to get this under control. I had a helluva time just finding the xtra firm spring, so if anyone has a source for the xxfirm, I would like to know where. As it is, however, I will still mess with the shim stack before swapping the spring again. Hopefully, I also fixed the leak (happened on the first trail after spring swap...) that dumped fork oil all over my rotor and pads, which has kept the bike in pieces in the garage for a month... I was told to basically just take it apart and refill it, because oil may have just not ended up in the stanchions and was leaking out of the lowers. When the weather cools down, I will try to get it back together for a test ride. Riding season is over here, unfortunately. It's dangerously hot (already in the triple digits, will average around 114 through summer), so I would need to drag it out of town up the mountains to get riding in from June through September or so...


You need the xx spring plain and simple. Im 250 and have the xx spring with 150psi and its solid

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

*Shim stack guide*

Ok let's try this for the Shim Stack Guide..


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

gregnash said:


> Ok let's try this for the Shim Stack Guide..


You're the man!


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

wv_bob said:


> Fat man about to get on the tower ...


Did you get the fork on?


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

^ still waiting on the wheel conversion kit and spring


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I got the wheel conversion kit, but still waiting on the spring. Being impatient by nature I decided to go ahead and deal with the bolt on the bottom of the air side to get ahead of any difficulties. 

The bolt popped loose with no problems but didn't want to come out. So next I pumped the air to 110 psi (had 100 out of the box), stood the fork on a bench so the leg with the dampers was on the bench and the leg with the bolt was hanging over the edge, and pushed down on the crown/steerer. Then, with a ratchet and 12mm socket, I backed the bolt out until oil sprayed (oops), so then I let all the air out. 

The bolt still wasn't all the way out at that point, so I first tried prying lightly under it with a screwdriver while turning it with a wrench, but that didn't work. Next I just used a pair of channel lock pliers to grab the head of the bolt and pull outward while I turned, and was successful in getting it removed. I stopped there because I didn't have the disassembly instructions with me, and there was no reason to go further since I don't have the spring yet.

I guess I lost most of the oil so I will have to replace that, but I was sure happy to not need to revert to using an impact to spin the bolt out. :thumbsup:

I did try to re-tighten the bolt once before I got it completely loose, and noticed that the bolt would "notch" when I tightened it back up, which I took to mean the shaft wasn't fully seated. I doubt I had enough torque on it at that point, and suspect that when re-assembling and at the point of final torque, I'll have to air the fork up and put some compression on it to get it to spec.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

lol, lesson learned on having psi in the fork. its good to have fork in a vice or stand so you can pull on the arch to decompress or compress the fork for removal of the lowers. also have the fork upside down so all oil runs into stanchions and you lose none. i too am impatient as that one of my major character defects


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Yeah I'll clamp it in the workstand when I actually take it apart. I'd have dumped the oil so I could baseline the amount in the legs anyway, especially since it's just 5w-40 synthetic. 

I sure wish there was some way to load this whole thread as one page so it's searchable. The search thread tool is pretty pitiful for actually finding information.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> Yeah I'll clamp it in the workstand when I actually take it apart. I'd have dumped the oil so I could baseline the amount in the legs anyway, especially since it's just 5w-40 synthetic.
> 
> I sure wish there was some way to load this whole thread as one page so it's searchable. The search thread tool is pretty pitiful for actually finding information.


did ya download my little manual...? has all the amounts and such Manitou recommends for oils.... and make sure it's 100% synth as they really stressed that when they talked to me


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes I saw your manual. 

Hopefully I'll get the spring here in a day or two and can get that and the fork installed.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

ya.. want mine spring too... ordered from one place as they stated "in stock" over a week ago and it still hasn't shipped.. they said it was shipping on Wends in an e-mail and yet... it didn't... gunna call today


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Yeah I think a lot of the places list "In stock" meaning a distributor has it. Misleading at best. I hunted down the closest place to here so at least I minimize the travel time on that leg of the shipment. It's been a full week on mine and it still hasn't shipped toward me AFAICT.

I do have a dumb question though ... should the lowers have been pressurized like they were on my fork, or is it a sign of air getting past an internal seal?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> Yeah I think a lot of the places list "In stock" meaning a distributor has it. Misleading at best. I hunted down the closest place to here so at least I minimize the travel time on that leg of the shipment. It's been a full week on mine and it still hasn't shipped toward me AFAICT.
> 
> I do have a dumb question though ... should the lowers have been pressurized like they were on my fork, or is it a sign of air getting past an internal seal?


well the air spring pushes on the lowers.. that's how it works  if you leave pressure in there and take out the bottom bolts they will shoot across the room LOLOL

now if you undo the one bolt and oil starts spurting out the hole.. then you have seal issues...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> now if you undo the one bolt and oil starts spurting out the hole.. then you have seal issues...


That's what happened. I took the bolt out of the air side and oil sprayed out so I let all the air out. I guess there's a chance the oil stopped before I let the air out, I wasn't watching it that close, just felt like a dummy so I wanted to stop the oil.

So if I take the bolt out, and pump the fork up, little to no air should come out, and it should hold pressure, right? And most importantly, it'll be safe to do that?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> That's what happened. I took the bolt out of the air side and oil sprayed out so I let all the air out. I guess there's a chance the oil stopped before I let the air out, I wasn't watching it that close, just felt like a dummy so I wanted to stop the oil.
> 
> So if I take the bolt out, and pump the fork up, little to no air should come out, and it should hold pressure, right? And most importantly, it'll be safe to do that?


have to hit up manitou on that.. but in general I would say no.. should never have pressure in the fork with out the bolt holding it from shooting away...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I'll give them a call later today and see what they say about air in the lowers.

BTW, you might want to reorganize your manual because if one reads it top to bottom, the lowers are off before the warning to let the air out of the fork.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> BTW, you might want to reorganize your manual because if one reads it top to bottom, the lowers are off before the warning to let the air out of the fork.


Oh Crap!!!!.. on that now!

fixed... make sure you have the "revision *1.03*"

actually re-thinking about it there is a stop on the piston/push rod so the actual lower castings shouldn't get any real pressure...  been a while since I did this last...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I used the "contact us" page at manitou's site to ask about pressure in the lowers. I think I sent it to the wrong place though, I selected "Manitou" and not "Tech service crew"

If I haven't heard back before then I may shoot 20-30 psi in it at lunch before I do my daily ride and see if I notice any pressure out the bottom or if it leaks off while I'm gone. It shouldn't come flying apart with the damper rod still threaded into the lowers. I hope


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## iCollector (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey Bob - I see you've got your fork! That bottom bolt is a PITA. Manitou is doing something about it (some sort of redesign), but it doesn't help us! I put in the order for the XX spring on Saturday.

I have a new compression rod assembly as well, I let Manitou know of how much trouble I had, and even the auto shop with an impact gun took more than a quick pop, and Manitou sent a new rod.

With the x firm, the shock still gets too much dive for my tastes. I am hoping the xx will be the solution. I still have a lot of options, as I also purchased the tuning kit... talk about detail!!


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes the fork shipped quick, the spring is another story and I'm not going to ride the fork until I have that installed. I went with an X-Firm hoping that'll work since I'm low to the ground, ride an upright setup, and haven't noticed severe problems with my Minute 29. If I had a relationship with the LBS I'd have went first with the XX-Firm, but I don't and can't imagine my one of a kind nickel-and-dime order getting any kind of priority. I should lose 20 lbs anyway


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> make sure you have the "revision *1.03*"


On the pressure in the lowers, Manitou support replied that isn't expected but can happen due to environmental conditions, and as long as the fork is holding pressure, don't sweat it :thumbsup: Might be worth cutting a rev 1.04 to cover that


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

well my spring shipped today.. or so the e-mail said... only 9 days later than they originally said.. LOL


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Got my fork the other day. Then I realized I was missing some parts from my Head Set. Ordered from Aspire Velo today. Should be here in a couple of days.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

anybody notice a 5.5mm gain between the x-firm and the stock medium spring? i just received it from niagara and it's the right spring according to the label on the bag. i still have a firm in my fork, but i didn't notice the dim diff when i did that swap. although, it could have been a couple of intoxicating reasons though, lol.

thomllama, could you be so kind to point me in the direction of the vid you made?


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Trail Tire TV

about the 4th or 5th post down.. manual link there too.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

fishwrinkle said:


> anybody notice a 5.5mm gain between the x-firm and the stock medium spring?


100mm or 120mm? Maybe it'll settle down once you get some time on it.

How about this, from thom's pdf instructions: "The long end goes in first (toward the top of the fork) and _*must drop into the hole in the Air Shelf*_ inside the stanchion."


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Spinning Compression Rod*

The Straight Scoop;



> As people discuss their spinning comp rod bolts, let them know we have a solid fixing coming down the pike, and in the meantime, we will send them a new rod under warranty. They can drill out the bolt if needed using the idea from the attached picture. The exact drill diameter is not that important, but this one neatly follows the counter-bore in the bolt and breaks thru into the o-ring groove on the bolt shaft without touching the casting. The replacement rods we can send out today will still have some issues vs bolt torque, but the future parts will be much better.
> 
> We are also coming out with an air piston with a threaded boss which will allow the service guy to thread a 6x1mm bolt into the piston and easily extract it. Retrofittable to older forks. In addition, there will be means to insert a long 5mm allen and hold the rod. Retrofit also.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

They're right on top of things. :thumbsup:


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

wv_bob said:


> 100mm or 120mm? Maybe it'll settle down once you get some time on it.
> 
> How about this, from thom's pdf instructions: "The long end goes in first (toward the top of the fork) and _*must drop into the hole in the Air Shelf*_ inside the stanchion."


For a 120. The medium was sitting on my bench and I just got the x firm out of the package and was comparing the two and noticed when the spring were next to each other that the x firm was longer. Just an observation and was curious that's all. Not saying its wrong, just wondering if anyone else noticed it. I already installed a firm around Christmas.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I thought you meant you'd installed it and the A-C measurement went up by 5mm. Defeated by reading comprehension again.

If I ever get my spring I'll compare the factory part to the X-firm and see if there's a difference.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Have you guys measured how much these springs compress (difference between fully extended and fully compressed)?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Thx bob. Did you order it from niagara cycle? I got mine in 6 days. Yeah I wasn't to clear in my post. Solitone I have not taken any measurements of that sort. Oh by the way bob I think the 2012 forks come with a firm and the 2011's came with a medium spring. Med springs are red, firm are yellow and x firm are black


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

No I ordered from another source that was closer through e-bay. That was a week ago Sunday, no trace of it having been shipped. According to their estimate it won't be late until day after tomorrow. For all I know it's in the mail and they just didn't mark it shipped. If I don't get it by the weekend I'll go ahead and put oil back in the leg I opened up and go with the factory spring until it gets here.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

I edited my previous post so might want to check it out


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes, it should have a firm spring in it already. Maybe


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

fishwrinkle said:


> For a 120. The medium was sitting on my bench and I just got the x firm out of the package and was comparing the two and noticed when the spring were next to each other that the x firm was longer. Just an observation and was curious that's all. Not saying its wrong, just wondering if anyone else noticed it. I already installed a firm around Christmas.


I don't know.. according to Manitou, the X-Firm is longer than the XX-Firm:
http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/tuning-tower-pro-852107-3.html#post10411687

It'd be interesting that you compared your X-Firm and Medium with the Firm you currently have in your fork.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

will do


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

fishwrinkle said:


> Thx bob. Did you order it from niagara cycle? I got mine in 6 days.


You were wise to go with Niagara, my spring just shipped today. Shipping USPS out of Philly, it'll be a miracle if it's here by Friday. But I can fall back on the 9mm setup so at least I can ride.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

^^^yeah that. lol, i do thank you for the link to niagara though, lol. j/k sorry i had too. at least you can ride. i'll be putting in that kit tonight. so i think i'm going to get rid of my milo so i can have better control of my fork. anyone interested in it i'll sell it dirt cheap, pm me.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, got my X-firm today.. here's an image compared to the Medium stock spring that was in my 2010 model ... the X-firm spring is a tad longer thou hard to tell in the image .. about 1/4 inch longer...









one thing is the old springs rod is MUCH longer.. hmmmm wondering it the new rod is actually for a 80mm? gunna have to contact Manitou on that before install...

will pull the Firm in the fork in the next few days when I get time and compare .. probably do an update on Trail Tire TV with differences and such...


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

I think they sent the wrong push rod size... it should be the same rod when you are only swapping spring rates, right? It is my understanding the push rod is only changed between different travel lengths, and the spring is the same. I am curious about this myself, as I was sent a Tower ride kit for my Minute (the 26er version) and was told the springs are the same for both forks, and to just use the old rod to be safe.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bikemaya said:


> I think they sent the wrong push rod size... it should be the same rod when you are only swapping spring rates, right? It is my understanding the push rod is only changed between different travel lengths, and the spring is the same. I am curious about this myself, as I was sent a Tower ride kit for my Minute (the 26er version) and was told the springs are the same for both forks, and to just use the old rod to be safe.


ya, that's my thoughts... honestly wonder why they even include the rod thou... couldn't we just be re using the old one? unless they are diff lengths to increase contact point with the air spring...? set out a note to manitou.. but with holiday weekend not expecting a response till Tuesday


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I should get my X-Firm today and will post back about the lengths compared to the stock Firm in my fork. Since we're both getting X-F springs at about the same time there's a good chance they came from the same run so if the wrong rod is getting shipped it may be true for both of us. But hopefully you will have heard back from Manitou before then since my mailman doesn't get here until 5 PM.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

gregnash said:


> See now I have heard the "whoosh-click" sound when I get some serious compression on the fork but this was different.. At first I thought my stem had come loose because it sounded like the shifting noise you get in the stem/headset/fork when it is not tightened properly but was not able to replicate the sound when moving the fork independent of the frame.
> 
> I got to play with it when I get home today... thankfully it is a short day because waterheater is getting replaced!:madman:


Did anything come of this?

Got in another ride yesterday and i experienced this "clunk" sound as well. I was not sure if it was the TA or my headset etc... I rode the ABS in all different areas to see if it was closer to the lockout or the full open and although it was not "clunking" through the whole ride it seems as it was mostly in the middle to lockout range where the most "clunk" was more prevalent.

It felt as though it was the spring knocking around in the leg but tough to tell. Also... these stanchions seem flexy as hell. I was going maybe 15-20mph on a fire road and did a quick tap on the front brake to see the flex and damn does that thing move....

Another call to Manitou i guess....

tom


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Ral83178 said:


> Also... these stanchions seem flexy as hell. I was going maybe 15-20mph on a fire road and did a quick tap on the front brake to see the flex and damn does that thing move....


Yes, I agree. I weigh only 155 lbs, but stanchions flex under braking pretty much. Way more than my older Minute Expert I have on my 26er.

Yet most people say front-back flex is similar to other 29er forks, while lateral / torsional flex is smaller.

Unfortunately I can't say, cause I don't have any experience with any other 29er fork.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I looked at my Minute 29 the other day (should be about the same) and yeah it flexed under braking on pavement. I've got a Reba here too, I should give it a shot with that to see what it does.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have a Fox and have had a REBA and i don't see this much flex. More of a comment opposed to a flaw in the design. I just thought getting the 15TA that the whole front end would be stiffer and burlyer overall however it almost feels less stiff and "burly". 

I don't fear that it is going to give out but just interesting to see it move that much at 15mph....:eekster:


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I think I posted earlier that I once looked at a rigid fork while braking and scared the daylights out of myself 

I was able to make the brakes rub on my 9mm Minute 29, and that's why I am switching to 15mm. The change should make that problem go away.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

okay... so anyone else hear this clunking and knocking in the fork?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I remember the clunking but if I remember correctly it was corrected by backing off the preload to correct the setting for my terrain. Once I did that and readjusted the fork psi I have not heard it since. The fork does flex but not any more than any of the other bikes I have ridden. If you are using more than 100mm fork you may just not have been used to seeing the fork flex that much.

So for the clunk, try adjusting the preload (bottom blue knob) and then adjust the PSI for feel and sag. Rode my 2012 9mm QR 100mm TP this weekend for a race set at 70psi with the ABS set to about mid level and going through all the different terrain (rockgarden to racetrack single track) the fork did BEAUTIFULLY and never once did I think about it or think about adjusting something.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

gregnash said:


> If you are using more than 100mm fork you may just not have been used to seeing the fork flex that much.


I have a 120mm Tower Pro, but I noticed significant flex also with a 100mm one that I used for a couple of months.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

just got a note from manitou.. and yes,.. the Xfirm uses a shorter rod ... sooo I guess I'm good to go


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

The pushrod in my fork is the same length as the X-firm, as is the spring.

FWIW, the spring photos that everyone is posting has my head spinning. The rod goes in first, then the spring, and the spring will end up on the other end of the pushrod as compared to the following photo. 









You can see that in Thom's video, but all the photos have it on the wrong end of the rod.

Here's another duh statement that's not clear in the instructions- you can't torque the compression rod when you put it back in because of the shaft sticking out of it. There's no way to get a socket on the nut.

Finally, 22mm = 7/8 if you don't have a metric wrench that big.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> The pushrod in my fork is the same length as the X-firm, as is the spring.
> 
> FWIW, the spring photos that everyone is posting has my head spinning. The rod goes in first, then the spring, and the spring will end up on the other end of the pushrod as compared to the following photo.
> 
> ...


it's just the way it's packaged for shipping.... not the way it's installed 

you can torque i with crow's foot socket/wrench... but who has one any more these days...


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Oh ffs. I guess I need to mail Manitou about this too. I couldn't get the damned pushrod out of the fork anyways to check it, didnt have pliers long and narrow enough to grab it. No amount of shaking or tapping would knock it loose either. It still remains, however, the ride kit I received was ordered by an LBS directly from Manitou for a Minute Pro I ordered from them, so I was assuming everything was correct... I imagine push rods in 29" and 26" may have some slight variations, so this might not even be the correct pushrod anyways...

ARGH. I JUST got everything back together after my big leak too


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Sent a message to them. Will post the conversation here to help anyone else who may also have a similar situation...



> Hi!
> 
> A few months ago, I purchased a 120mm 20mmTA Manitou Minute Pro fork, and ordered an X-Firm ride kit at the same time to go with it. The ride kit I received is part# 141-26744-k003, which is the number for the Tower Pro kit. Since the kit and fork were ordered directly from Manitou by the bike shop for me, I assumed the kits were the same, and was not concerned.
> 
> ...


(actually, I forgot the mention that I tweaked the rebound knob just so to a sweet spot at one point during testing, which allowed me to run the x-firm two clicks off the ABS lockout and to lower the pressure a hair. Still cycled through too much travel but brake dive was more manageable as long as I took it easy... which is tough to do since I have only ridden rigid forks up until now!)


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

My pushrod was stuck too but I found a pair of hemostats that would reach it. Another good thing about having a nurse around.

I can't get the bottom bolt to torque. I put 100 psi in the fork, and used a ratchet strap pulled to full travel. What's the secret?


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> it's just the way it's packaged for shipping.... not the way it's installed
> 
> you can torque i with crow's foot socket/wrench... but who has one any more these days...


Math would be involved even with the right crow's foot. I have some out there but they're not that big.


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

I was just thinking maybe a mechanics parts grabber like this would be a cheap solution if you are having problems getting the push rod out. 
OEM 25291 Four Claw Pick Up Tool - Amazon.com
I bet Horrible Freight, or local your autozone has one.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK.. installed mine new X-firm tonight.. friggin raining for most of the weekend and I gotz to work so not going to get a good test run till Tues or Wends 


here's all 3 spring together.... I got to say the Firm actually felt kinda softer than the Mid did in the beginning of compression... still thinking that longer push rod would have been better..? gunna hit up manitou again just for reassurance


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

wv_bob said:


> My pushrod was stuck too but I found a pair of hemostats that would reach it. Another good thing about having a nurse around.


I just used a pencil and with the fork down just bobbled it around till it knocked the rod loose.. wasn't hard...



wv_bob said:


> I can't get the bottom bolt to torque. I put 100 psi in the fork, and used a ratchet strap pulled to full travel. What's the secret?


My rod has a bit of knurling on the bottom and grabs the lowers when tightened.. but It did slip just short or spec this time... (last time with the firm spring i had no issues) gunna do a short ride on it when the rain clears and let it settle then see it I can top it off or not...


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> My rod has a bit of knurling on the bottom and grabs the lowers when tightened.. but It did slip just short or spec this time... (last time with the firm spring i had no issues) gunna do a short ride on it when the rain clears and let it settle then see it I can top it off or not...


Mine's knurled too. As best I can tell I got just shy of 40 in/lbs on it. Once it started slipping I went back over it to see what I had and I never got the wrench to -click- at 40. I tipped it upright to see if it leaks oil and left it overnight and it still has the same air pressure and no signs of a leak. So I guess I'm going to install and ride even with the low torque. The damper screw in the other leg tightened to spec with no problems.

Part of me wonders if I got oil in the end of the compression rod and am hydro-locking it so the bolt can't tighten more. I had the legs well back from the shaft and tried to squirt oil to the side, but there's no way to know for sure now.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I wasn't able to get a good feel for the fork yesterday as the trails were a lot muddier than I expected and I was pretty much broadsiding every where I tried to carry some speed. Before leaving, a ride around the yard convinced me I needed to go up in air pressure and I ended up at about 140 with an X-firm spring, and compression 4 clicks out from locked. So, all signs point to me needing the XX-firm spring.

Anyway, from what little I could tell it feels good over small stuff but it seems to eat a lot of the travel. Today I added 5ccs of 5wt fork oil under the air cap hoping to help that. I'm going to give it another try today before the rains start tomorrow. I really don't want to be back on the trails with the condition they're in so I'll be gravel-roading it unless conditions look to have changed once I get to the park.

Update: Well the extra 5cc under the air cap does seem to have firmed it up. On the gravel/eroded old roads it was dusty enough to leave a witness ring on the stanchions and I'm not close to bottoming out - but then I wasn't exactly slamming the bike into anything either. I think I'm still going to need the heavier spring.


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## jroberts1968 (Aug 27, 2009)

I just put a Tower Pro on my 2013 Mamba, one the manual blows whale balls! after reading almost every thread on tuning and reviews positives and negatives, I took the advise of Keen & Trail Maker. I took a 1.5 mile loop of XC with a nice mix of terrain, climbs, descents, big hits, little hits, and nice single track. My local dog park believe it or not. I aired the fork to the middle recommendation for 220lbs. Set ABS on 4 clicks from lock out, and 50% damp. I road a lap and evaluated when 5 clicks from lock out and a little on dampening raised air. this went on for a few laps, I found my sweet spot at 4 clicks 65% dampening and 107psi. The fork was plush handled big hits and small ones too. It was great in the corners and it was awesome on descents and climbs. I had the same issue with brake dive as others did. I found what works for my riding style and bike. I was lost till I found this thread and Trail Makers paper.

Thank all for the help.

Jim


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Im swapping the stock spring on my manitou tower pro 100mm and Im planning on using mobil 1 5w30 for lowers and maybe put some slickhoney on seals and new spring. is there anything else I will need or should consider? , also any good setting to start with for my 6 3" and 230 lbs? 
thanks


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

installed X-firm and ran a quick 3-4 mile run... forgot my shock pump so pressure I'm not sure on (thinking after assy I put like 90lbs in but not 100% on that) what ever it is it's near perfect... still a rather heavy brake dive like everyone else is stating but it was near perfect otherwise. Small bump was great and really had to slam the front to get it to bottom out, and even then it was a smooth hit, not jarring. thinking of trying the oil in the air chamber cap and see if that helps the brake dive.. the fork does blow thru the first 1-1.5 inch of travel fast, but it's really smooth over small stuff so it's a toss up on what you want....

was also trying out a new Vee Rubber Mission tire on the rear which I'm really liking and between the 2 it was an awesome little spin


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

cridom said:


> Im planning on using mobil 1 5w30 for lowers and maybe put some slickhoney on seals and new spring.


Oil is 5W-40 synthetic.

Personally, I wouldn't put any grease on the seals, as the foam reservoir sits right below the seal. If grease gets on/into the foam it may not be able to hold oil properly.

When you have the fork apart, coat the bushings, foam, and seals with the 5w-40, let drain, slide the lowers onto the stanchions, and then add the correct amount of oil with a syringe through the lower leg bolt/rebound adjuster holes.

Drew


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## jroberts1968 (Aug 27, 2009)

thomllama said:


> OK.. installed mine new X-firm tonight.. friggin raining for most of the weekend and I gotz to work so not going to get a good test run till Tues or Wends
> 
> here's all 3 spring together.... I got to say the Firm actually felt kinda softer than the Mid did in the beginning of compression... still thinking that longer push rod would have been better..? gunna hit up manitou again just for reassurance


Those spring so remind me of the rear coil spring from a Chevy Caprice Classic


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks Drew , I was wondering because usually fox recommends grease on seals and many users use mobil one on forks for lubrication. I was unsure about manitou


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

cridom said:


> Thanks Drew , I was wondering because usually fox recommends grease on seals and many users use mobil one on forks for lubrication. I was unsure about manitou


No problem dude! Somewhere Manitou gave away what oil to use in the lowers. I can't remember where I found the info (MTBR??) but it is just synthetic motor oil in 5w-40 weight. Mobil 1, by all means!

I think I bought Shell and now have enough for 100+ services. That's a fair bit cheaper than LBS prices.

The foam rings will become contaminated over time by dirt that works its way past the seals. I don't know how easy they are to get out without pulling the seals, but it is recommended that they be cleaned when you service the fork.

Drew


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I finally got a chance to ride my bike with the Tower on unfamiliar trails, which really opened my eyes since I didn't really know what was coming around the next corner. 

At times the front end seemed to wallow around, I suspect because it's way too soft and eating too much travel. Trying to stand and climb is a disaster when I didn't get the fork locked out first. 135 psi, X-Firm spring, and I ended up either locking it out or running it one click away. I'm going to have to hit the LBS and try to get them to order the clyde spring for me. I sure hope that helps.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

I just dialed mine in... it's about perfect!! 

here's my settings..
Manitou tower Pro 100mm, 20mm thru axle fork.

X-firm spring
100PSI
added 5cc oil to air chamber (big help on brake dive!!)
damper about 5 or 6 clicks counter clockwise _(bring it all the way clock wise and then back off)_

me-

195-200lbs full get-up with pack loaded with water, pumps, tool, spare tire. _(lost about 10lbs in the last month..yaa for me :thumbsup: LOL)_
Voodoo Canzo 29er 
28-30ish psi in front tire _(less and it feels squirrelie to me and I can feel the tire roll onto the sidewalls)_

Adding the 5cc's oil to the air chamber was a BIG bonus.. got rid of the excessive brake dive _(there is still the normal amount, about 10-15mm which anything less and you have no small bump compliance)_ and helped a lot with the wallowing in corners with rougher terrain.

one thing to note is I sit more upright-comfort bike style do to a broken neck I had yrs ago that prevents me looking up or forward when in a normal bike sitting position. So I have more weight on the rear tire and less on the front than most people.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

thomllama said:


> Adding the 5cc's oil to the air chamber was a BIG bonus.. got rid of the excessive brake dive _(there is still the normal amount, about 10-15mm which anything less and you have no small bump compliance)_ and helped a lot with the wallowing in corners with rougher terrain.
> 
> one thing to note is I sit more upright-comfort bike style do to a broken neck I had yrs ago that prevents me looking up or forward when in a normal bike sitting position. So I have more weight on the rear tire and less on the front than most people.


I did the 5cc thing already, it helped but riding on unknown terrain brought out the negatives of the shock vs my weight.

The fork is on my Canfield, which has an upright position by nature and by build, but I still have problems. I'm 30 lbs over your weight though, but it's getting closer every day.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i too finally got out on sunday to blast through about 10 miles of tech. it was lil muddy so i wasnt pushing it as i normally would, but heres what i came up with. i weigh 195-200lbs geared, x-firm spring, abs at mid point, 75% open rebound with 125 psi. i almost used full travel, but that will change when trails dry up a bit. i do get about an 1-1/2" of dive so im going to throw a teaspoon of grease in the cylinder and see how that pans out. unfortunately i wont get around to that for about a week. im loving this fork, especially when i bought it lightly used for $200.


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## fahza29er (Jun 26, 2012)

I thought 110 was max PSI?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Here ya go. Much good info The Engineer Speaks: 2012 Manitou Tower Pro


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## fahza29er (Jun 26, 2012)

Where can you get the X-firm spring kits at? I called my LBS and he says the Canadian supplier has ZERO 100 MM kits. I need one as my shock just isnt performing the way I would like it for my weight.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

My X-Firm kit came from e-bay. You can also get them at https://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php?search_query=tower+ride+kit

I still haven't found an online dealer that sells (or will special order) the XX-Firm spring.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

fahza29er said:


> Where can you get the X-firm spring kits at? I called my LBS and he says the Canadian supplier has ZERO 100 MM kits. I need one as my shock just isnt performing the way I would like it for my weight.


got mine at UpgradeCycle.com was about 2 bucks more than Niagra but a bit faster to ship..? sorta


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

fahza29er said:


> Where can you get the X-firm spring kits at? I called my LBS and he says the Canadian supplier has ZERO 100 MM kits. I need one as my shock just isnt performing the way I would like it for my weight.


Phoned my LBS asked them to order one for me. (I gave them the part number.) I had it in less than a week.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Ral83178 said:


> okay... so anyone else hear this clunking and knocking in the fork?


Now that I've got a little more time on my fork, I hear sort of a *click* out of it.


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## fahza29er (Jun 26, 2012)

wv_bob said:


> Now that I've got a little more time on my fork, I hear sort of a *click* out of it.


Nope mine just makes the oussh oussh sound of it going up and down.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

can you point me to an online seller that has the *xxf spring for 120mm* travel?

i need an online seller because i'll send it to my brother who lives in NY so he can he can bring it here in Manila.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I haven't looked for a while but if you read earlier posts you'll see that the clyde spring doesn't seem to be available via mail order. Or at least no one was able to get an on-line seller to order one for you. 

I never did get one, decided to lose weight instead. ut:

FWIW, I have an X-firm spring in my 100mm fork, ~135 lbs of pressure, run the compression dial at center with tweaks as needed. I haven't really noticed any dive that I can't overcome with shifting weight. The trails I ride would probably be best described as XC, I'm not jumping off or dropping in to anything. The X-firm spring is widely available via mail order.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

spyghost said:


> can you point me to an online seller that has the *xxf spring for 120mm* travel?
> 
> i need an online seller because i'll send it to my brother who lives in NY so he can he can bring it here in Manila.


In the past, I have ordered Manitou spare parts from Chad @ Red Barn (Custom Mountain Bikes, Road Bikes and Hand-made wheels | Red Barn Bicycles) You can reach him by email or phone. I'm sure he will be willing to ship the spring to where you want in the states or even directly to Manila.


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## DR.BG (Jun 20, 2013)

I haven't read anything in this thread about different springs available for the 140mm version. Is a x-firm available? If not, would it be worth staying at 120mm travel on my Rip 9 and be able to better tune vs. 140mm with less than optimal spring? Btw, I'm 230 ready to ride.


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

yes, X-Firm is available for 140mm. Emailed Manitou for the part number. Ordered one through my LBS took about a week. It was $16. 
The XX-Firm/Clyde spring, which may be better for you, was not available for 140mm when I checked with Manitou about a month ago. I had to switch from XX-Firm to X-Firm when I ducked under 220. YMMV

I have the X-Firm 140mm part number at home, I'll post it here later today.


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## DR.BG (Jun 20, 2013)

swildnm said:


> yes, X-Firm is available for 140mm. Emailed Manitou for the part number. Ordered one through my LBS took about a week. It was $16.
> The XX-Firm/Clyde spring, which may be better for you, was not available for 140mm when I checked with Manitou about a month ago. I had to switch from XX-Firm to X-Firm when I ducked under 220. YMMV
> 
> I have the X-Firm 140mm part number at home, I'll post it here later today.


Great, thank you! I guess the question remains if i should go with the 120mm travel fork because of greater tuning ability vs. the 140mm travel with xfirm.


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## Ral83178 (Sep 25, 2007)

I’ve been riding the XX – Firm for some time now on a SS Setup and I that I have it dialed in. I still put in the extra oil as well and set the PSI to about 90 and ABS in the middle. 

I was having a lot of dive and knocking issues with the X-firm setup so contacted Manitou and they thought that there was something wrong internally and rightfully so there was... the knocking I had was something not assembled correctly or crimped in the ABS (warranty). Anyway, I asked if I could try the XX – Firm and it came back with one. I have to say that if I had it on my FS bike id probably keep the X- firm but for SS due to the mashing I needed that platform so to speak. I also lost 30 lbs and at 200lbs id still recommend the xx firm... at least for SS.

Just my $0.02.


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

swildnm said:


> I have the X-Firm 140mm part number at home, I'll post it here later today.


Part number for 140mm X-Firm is 141-25683-K004


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## Brodon (Jul 16, 2013)

Hi guys, this is a little off topic but thought it migh be the best place to ask. I just got this fork installed on my bike, and really am happy with it so far but it seems a bit loud. It sounds like the noise is a normal sounds of oil/air moving through the damper, especially on rebound, but I can't remember riding another fork this loud. Is it just me or does anyone else feel this is true for them too? For what it's worth I have been on a coil sprung fork for the last few month which was nearly silet so it's not the best comparison.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

The (better) shimmed rebound of Manitous tend to make noise when the rebound is dialed to high, so all the oil is forced through the shims. You might want to open the rebound damping up a little...


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

two one, i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you are saying. they make noise cause they are dialed too high and you should open it up more? i guess i'm thinking too high means too much rebound and therefore according to your statement would think to close the valve. so you are saying his fork is packing up and rebound should be increased? i've had a few beers and new to suspended forks so pardon me if i sound handicapped. i too experience the squish sound, but i am fairly sure mine is not packing up. my rebound is set at ~75% open with abs mid point. my tower is a 2011 so does it have the "better" shim stack?


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

All manitou's have a shimstacked rebound since 2002 or something. I personally always liked the damper sounds... reminds me that it's doing its job well


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

My experience with my fork is it makes a "swoosh" or "squinch" sound when it compresses/rebounds. If I close the damper (turn it clockwise) it will make a click sound on small bumps and less swooshing. The point where the click turns into the swoosh seems to be at about mid-range of the adjustment.


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## Carloswithac (Feb 6, 2012)

Well, after having the xtra firm spring in it for a while, and losing weight, I'm going to change it out to a firm spring. The xtra firm is too firm for me now. 

Carlos


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

^ yeah that's about where I'm at with needing an XX-Firm spring. I never did get one, but I'm not too far weight-wise from not needing it now.

Congrats on losing the weight.


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## DR.BG (Jun 20, 2013)

Any of you guys interested in selling either an xfirm or xxfirm spring?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> From Manitou Engineering -
> 
> _The best way to get these apart is to let the air out, turn the fork upside down, and compress it very hard with the goal of driving the inner leg into the rubber bottom-out bumper. This provides some resistance to rotation. Use an air wrench to remove the bolt while compressing the fork in this manner._


This worked also for my fork, today. There was no other way than compressing the fork very hard in order to remove that 12mm bolt.


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## iCollector (Nov 14, 2012)

solitone said:


> This worked also for my fork, today. There was no other way than compressing the fork very hard in order to remove that 12mm bolt.


Unfortunately not everyone has an air/impact wrench....

It's too bad their design is a bit weak in this area that allows the bolt to spin in many people's forks. I was told they are redesigning this area, but don't know if its the compression rod or the lower stanchion. I can't see a for design that would fix this without also having to add something to the stanchion as well.

I got my xx firm in, but, the compression bolt only has ~40 of the 50 recommended torque. ( can't recall what units are at the moment, just that I could only get so far, then spin....)

I like the fork. And someday will delve in to the shim tuning to really get it tuned. I bought the kit so have tons of options there.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I removed the compression rod screw with a normal wrench.

But it's true. When at the end I tightened that bolt, I didn't even manage to measure torque, as it started spinning pretty soon. Hope it's not any serious issue.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i didn't torque mine as my bolt would spin well before recommended force. it has been like that for several months and no problems yet.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Same here, insufficient torque, but no leaks or problems.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

a question on sag setting (stupid one perhaps)...

when initially setting up sag, what should be the setting of the knobs (rebound and compression )? is it right to say that they should be on their 'hardest setting)?

the dillemma here is that if the knobs are loose, then sag setting will be affected by the damper as well instead of the spring only, which is the ideal case.

let me know your thoughts...


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

spyghost said:


> a question on sag setting (stupid one perhaps)...
> 
> when initially setting up sag, what should be the setting of the knobs (rebound and compression )? is it right to say that they should be on their 'hardest setting)?
> 
> ...


No;

The damping only controls the motion of the spring. It works at speed, not at rest. The damping will not resist any motion so slow as sitting on the bike. It only resists faster motions that govern ride quality. That is why it is important to have the correct spring in the first place. The spring carries the load, and damping controls the motion of that load. For sag, the damper setting should be irrelevant.

I personally do not worry about sag too much, as I find that it really doesn't get me where I want to be. However, it does work well as a very basic starting point for people that have never learned how suspension works. Suspensions do not work at their peak if there is no negative motion available, meaning you have to be settled into the travel a bit in a static state to get the best performance. Riding at the top of the travel is fine for compression situations, but what about rebound or droop? If you go over a slight dip, the bike gets a bit light, and the tires come off the ground, you've lost grip. Having a little negative travel available - being settled into the travel range a bit - allows the suspension to droop and the tires to stay in contact with the ground in that instance. On a straight run, that will not show itself as well as if you hit that dip in a turn. THEN you will find the advantage of having droop available to you.

Ideally, if you do not have a lot of experience with setting suspensions, you want to do your first test riding on moderate terrain with no damping on at all. This is purely a test to get a good feel for what the inherent balance of the bike is. Note if it bottoms or is too soft on one end or the other. If you have air adjustment to make, like with the Manitou Tower, this is the time that you are getting a feel for how effective that sag setting was and what that air pressure really should be so that the bike stays level and balanced. The ride motions will be exaggerated, so don't get wigged out, and don't try anything difficult.

After that, it is time to discover the range you have available in the various damper adjustments. Find some slightly rougher terrain that will activate the suspension sufficiently without being too extreme. You know what they feel like at zero, so pick one and crank it all the way up. Start with rebound, turn it up full and ride the same terrain. What felt like a big wallowy pogo stick before should now feel like lead. The suspension will "pack up" and not return from full compression. Note the range of change and how drastic that change is, both front and rear. Now, zero the rebound, max the compression (short of lockout if it is combined like on the Tower), and ride the same terrain. The bike should ride very high in its travel and be quite resistant to compressing at all, being very stiff and rough feeling. Again, note the inherent balance and how both the fork and shock react.

Now you should have a good idea of the range of each adjustment, and how they effect the ride. Set your rebound at about 20% from full fast, compression around mid way, and go for a real ride. You should be getting near full travel, with a balanced ride front-to-rear. If you are getting too much front dive, try a bit more air until you begin to lose use of most of the travel or the ride gets too stiff. Then try a little compression damping if it blows through the travel too easily. Same with the rear.

Always remember that the spring is the first line of defense, and that tuning it is the baseline for everything else. Damping is only there to tune the quality of the motion beyond that. This thread began because of a lack of proper baseline spring rate for larger riders. One should clearly take from that that damping will not work right without a proper spring rate from which to start. Beyond that, there is a wealth of info within the entire thread that will help you understand how suspensions really work.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

thanks trailmaker, totally got the point - sweet spot between spring and air psi.

in any case, for fyi purposes only has anyone with a happily married spring/air combo measured how much sag you got?


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

I ride a Canyon gran canyon al 29 7.9 and recently replaced the fork with a TP, this is a hardtail 100mm travel bike, I changed the stock spring on my TP for a XXfirm spring and added 5 cc into air chamber. I did this prior to riding the fork, so thats my starting point, Im 6 4" and weight around 240, prior to this fork I had a fox ctd evolution and was fairly happy with it but didn't like the way it handled medium to large hits (very harsh). Anyways I did a test ride with 130psi and was a bit too harsh and then lowered psi to 110 and that felt much better, I was using the abs at 3/4 open and rebound at around 30% from fast to slow. I found a good amount of brake dive maybe similar to my fox and My questions are: 

will going closer to lockout help the brake dive and therefore should I lower the psi a bit and dial in more dampening to make up for the lose of air? and how long does it take for the fork to break in ? will it change after the break in period? thanks

Also if anyone is similar to me please share your psi abs and rebound settings.
Could anyone guide


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm 10 lbs heavier and run way more psi than that. I'm running 150

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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

I get the feeling that the small stuff is very plush and all but when going fast through bumpy terrain it feels a bit too bumpy and makes me feel a little bit out of control. should I then add psi or lower? I am getting full travel right now at 110 psi, should I try in increments of 5psi ? thanks


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

cridom said:


> I get the feeling that the small stuff is very plush and all but when going fast through bumpy terrain it feels a bit too bumpy and makes me feel a little bit out of control. should I then add psi or lower? I am getting full travel right now at 110 psi, should I try in increments of 5psi ? thanks


At your weight and 110psi I can't imagine you not having MASSIVE amounts of brake dive. Read through more of the thread and see what others are running

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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Ill try 130-140 psi today and ser the difference maybe Im thinking the wrong way


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I can't reassemble my fork anymore!

There's no way I can manage to reinstall the rebound assembly in the right leg! It keeps turning but won't engage in the threads!

I've tried everything. Inflated, deflated, pushing.. No way!

Some weeks ago I already changed the spring. I had some issues with the compression rod bolt on the left leg, but compressing the fork I did manage to thread that bolt. I had no issues with the rebound assembly, though.

Don't know what's wrong this time. I've tried all the afternoon without progress..


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## joefi (Sep 13, 2011)

Reverse threads. Try counterclockwise to tighten.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, I turned it counter clockwise, but won't engage.

The assembly is now far from the threaded hole, and I have to compress the fork to take it with the 8mm Allen key.

I pushed hard the fork hoping it would engage, but nothing! Last time it was pretty easy.. But today I removed and installed again the lowers several times, and they should be installed correctly.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

cridom said:


> I get the feeling that the small stuff is very plush and all but when going fast through bumpy terrain it feels a bit too bumpy and makes me feel a little bit out of control. should I then add psi or lower? I am getting full travel right now at 110 psi, should I try in increments of 5psi ? thanks


Read back in my posts and apply; (slightly snarky smiley)

This HAS been covered. Always think of the travel as a graph. This helps you understand the relation between the various components. This "spikey" attitude in the motion MAY be an indication that you have the wrong spring for your weight and riding style. When the air and coil springs are not balanced, this is the type of performance you get.

The red line represents a typical XC tune with a tad of platform early, supple midstroke, and a progressive end stroke. The coil handles the early travel, and then bumps into the air piston part way through, taking it off its seat and into motion. You are a yellow liner. In your case the coil is too soft, so you blow right through it. You've put air in to try and compensate for that, but it is too much in relation to the coil, and is like hitting a wall when it is activated. It is the unbalanced nature that causes this.

To reiterate... again, you might add a bit of oil (5-15cc) over the air piston to try and firm the initial part of its motion. However, this is not going to effect the early travel coil stiffness, and that seems to be the problem here.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

solitone said:


> Yes, I turned it counter clockwise, but won't engage.
> 
> The assembly is now far from the threaded hole, and I have to compress the fork to take it with the 8mm Allen key.
> 
> I pushed hard the fork hoping it would engage, but nothing! Last time it was pretty easy.. But today I removed and installed again the lowers several times, and they should be installed correctly.


Does the bolt go in with the assembly outside the fork?


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## DR.BG (Jun 20, 2013)

Took my first ride yesterday with my 120mm Tower Pro. I weigh 230 geared up so i figure im moving up to the xfirm or xxfirm spring soon. The fork has the firm spring in it now so i went for a ride to get familiar with the bike (Niner Rip9) and fork. 

I ran 120psi, Abs+ 4 clicks from all the way and about 1/2 way open on the rebound.

I really like the way the fork rides! Nice and plush, didnt bob too bad and was able to take a couple 1-2 foot drops with no bottoming out. Didnt get a chance to really get on the brakes, so no noticeable brake dive.

I can't wait to dig in and fine tune more on my next ride.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> Does the bolt go in with the assembly outside the fork?


No, it stays inside the leg. I didn't manage to make it enter the thread. Is there any trick? Last time was fairly easy.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

solitone said:


> No, it stays inside the leg. I didn't manage to make it enter the thread. Is there any trick? Last time was fairly easy.


I'm not sure if you've discussed or mentioned it yet and I don't want to go back. If it's been discussed I apologize. What I do is let all the air out of the fork and push the lower casting all the way up so that the damper rod is against the bottom. Then you should be able to catch the threads.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

No need to apologize, every hint is helpful.

I already tried that, though, and didn't manage to. It worked for the compression rod bolt on the other leg, but not for the rebound assembly.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

solitone said:


> No need to apologize, every hint is helpful.
> 
> I already tried that, though, and didn't manage to. It worked for the compression rod bolt on the other leg, but not for the rebound assembly.


Push the casting up high enough and insert the Allen wrench through the hole. Engage it into the bottom of the rod to guide it into place while pushing the casting all the way against the thread and turn the rod to engage.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I pushed the casting with all my force, but nothing, it won't engage!

What I noticed when I removed casting again is that the rebound assembly was compressed, and there was some stiction to reextend it. Perhaps this stiction is what makes it difficult to engage into the threads?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I read the service guide again. When explaining casting removal, it says to "Screw the rebound all the way in (clockwise) remove the 2mm hex screw inside the knob by turning it counter clockwise."

I didn't screw it all the way in, but all the way out (counter clockwise), before unscrewing the knob.

Does this make any difference when it comes to casting installation?


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Here is a guide made by one of the users here that I found excellent, give it a go maybe you missed something. sorry if this wasn't too much help.

http://ctnemba.com/Images/ManitouSpring/Manitou_spring_service.pdf

On another note, thanks trailmaker, I tested 140psi and it felt much better I was a little better in the mid range and brake dive is pretty good now not too excessive, I got 90mm of travel which i think is nice since I didn't do anything too demanding, the fork felt plush most of the travel and Im beginning to think that the bumpiness came from the difference between the xx-firm spring and the low psi. Im gonna try 145-150 on tuesday and see if its even better but Im pretty happy with the results now. I can really see in that graph what you mean, thanks again and Ill keep you posted on the results of tuesday.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, thanks, I know that guide. It doesn't mention the initial rebound setting, so I assume it's not really important.

No one has ever experienced troubles when reinstalling the rebound assembly in the right leg?

The thing I did different this time is that I also serviced the abs+ damper. Last time I only swapped spring. I tried to reinstall the lowers without abs+ damper installed, as per service guide. But I didn't manage to mount the rebound assembly, so I also tried to install abs+ at that point, but I didn't manage to install rebound assembly nevertheless.

Finally, to compress the fork and reach the rebound assembly with the Allen key, I push with the fork upside down. Perhaps is for this reason that the knob won't engage in thread? However I can't fully compress the fork if it's not upside down, with steerer tube on the floor.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-tower-n-minute-spring-install-manual-820360.html post 5 is video that helps

you prob already have seen/used these,but just in case......


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## fahza29er (Jun 26, 2012)

cridom said:


> Here is a guide made by one of the users here that I found excellent, give it a go maybe you missed something. sorry if this wasn't too much he
> 
> On another note, thanks trailmaker, I tested 140psi and it felt much better I was a little better in the mid range and brake dive is pretty good now not too excessive, I got 90mm of travel which i think is nice since I didn't do anything too demanding, the fork felt plush most of the travel and Im beginning to think that the bumpiness came from the difference between the xx-firm spring and the low psi. Im gonna try 145-150 on tuesday and see if its even better but Im pretty happy with the results now. I can really see in that graph what you mean, thanks again and Ill keep you posted on the results of tuesday.


You can safely use 140 PSI? I thought the max was 115.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

All you noobs to this thread;

I want to encourage everyone coming in recently to pay your dues and *READ THE THREAD*.
Yes, it is very long, but most of the answers you are looking for are *ALREADY HERE*.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Now that biking season is beginning for me, I am still wondering if anyone found an answer to this question;

Is there an online retailer that sells the Clyde ride kit?

One LBS flaked on me THREE times when I tried to call them for it, the other one is willing to order it for me, but is marking the price up 100% and want me to pay the shipping. It would cost almost $50 when all is said and done, when I know the xtra firm I am running was only like $17 with free shipping.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Bikemaya said:


> Now that biking season is beginning for me, I am still wondering if anyone found an answer to this question;
> 
> Is there an online retailer that sells the Clyde ride kit?
> 
> One LBS flaked on me THREE times when I tried to call them for it, the other one is willing to order it for me, but is marking the price up 100% and want me to pay the shipping. It would cost almost $50 when all is said and done, when I know the xtra firm I am running was only like $17 with free shipping.


I haven't heard of it being readily available but a couple people here mentioned they are dropping down to x firm From xx so u may find someone here that will sell

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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> I haven't heard of it being readily available but a couple people here mentioned they are dropping down to x firm From xx so u may find someone here that will sell
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk now Free


On the same note, I am willing to trade as well. I have a regular xtra firm that has less than 50 miles on it, so basically new. I also have a stock one with a few more miles than the xtra firm, if someone is interested in that too.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Bikemaya said:


> Now that biking season is beginning for me, I am still wondering if anyone found an answer to this question;
> 
> Is there an online retailer that sells the Clyde ride kit?
> 
> One LBS flaked on me THREE times when I tried to call them for it, the other one is willing to order it for me, but is marking the price up 100% and want me to pay the shipping. It would cost almost $50 when all is said and done, when I know the xtra firm I am running was only like $17 with free shipping.


Do a google search, call up Hayes group directly, technical department, and see if they can get it done and take a credit care number.

Support | Manitou


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Called them already, long time ago. Email too. They do not sell to consumers directly, it MUST be ordered through an LBS. The most help they offered is helping me find an LBS who would order it for me, but I don't wanna get ripped off either. :/


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i paid $35 at my LBS, 50 is a lil steep. wish i had one to give ya


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Try calling tree fort bikes or competitive cycles. Both are online sellers with real shops.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

fishwrinkle said:


> http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/manitou-tower-n-minute-spring-install-manual-820360.html post 5 is video that helps
> 
> you prob already have seen/used these,but just in case......


Yes, I knew those resources, but thanks anyway.

Luckily, I finally managed to get it on, as reported here:
http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/tuning-tower-pro-852107-8.html#post10731730


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## SVO (May 25, 2005)

*WAY too little sag*

I am hardly a noob to these things but I cannot get my 2013 120mm Tower Pro set up properly. If I ignore sag I get the closest, but then end up with only 1/2" sag. Borderline Clydesdale (195lbs, 210 ready to ride) 100mm travel Niner Jet 9 RDO, 110mm stem (weight is NOT shifted rearwards).

With stock spring I cannot find a good set-up that gives me close to 1" sag. Changed everything, multiple times. Been round and round with Hayes tech support. Any ideas for me? Had a Minute a few years back that I loved. Do I need a medium spring? Seems ridiculous for my weight. I'm about ready to dump this and go back to Fox or Rockshox. Spend my time on the trail not fiddling endlessly...

Thanks!



TrailMaker said:


> No;
> 
> I personally do not worry about sag too much, as I find that it really doesn't get me where I want to be. However, it does work well as a very basic starting point for people that have never learned how suspension works. Suspensions do not work at their peak if there is no negative motion available, meaning you have to be settled into the travel a bit in a static state to get the best performance. Riding at the top of the travel is fine for compression situations, but what about rebound or droop? If you go over a slight dip, the bike gets a bit light, and the tires come off the ground, you've lost grip. Having a little negative travel available - being settled into the travel range a bit - allows the suspension to droop and the tires to stay in contact with the ground in that instance. On a straight run, that will not show itself as well as if you hit that dip in a turn. THEN you will find the advantage of having droop available to you.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Whats your psi and rebound settings ?


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Oh Lord...

FORGET ABOUT SAG.

If you have no clue how to tune suspension or what you like it to feel like, then sag is a dummies way of getting at least marginal performance. Most people make their suspensions FAR too stiff to start with, ESPECIALLY when everyone was coming from a hardtail or listening to all the stoopid racers saying that suspension was too mushy or robbed too much power or whatever. Bullshit! As usual, what works in racing has virtually no correlation to what works best for REAL RIDING for REAL PEOPLE. You don't ride sitting still, do you?
:madman:

I don't get anywhere near the sag I'm "supposed to" when I get the actual ride to work best, but I'm definitely getting all the travel. If I set the sag at what they say to, the bike is virtually unrideable! It flops and dives all over the place like a bag of mush. If you have no sag, then you won't ever get the most out of your suspension. If you pay attention to it to the exclusion of what the dampers are really working like, you never will either. If you know what you want the ride to feel like, why not concentrate on that?


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## SVO (May 25, 2005)

cridom said:


> Whats your psi and rebound settings ?


The best was 85 psi and 80% rebound. 1/2" sag at that at 210 lbs. That does not compute with what tech support says should happen


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

85 psi @ 210!? i'm 200 geared and have 110 psi on an x-firm spring w/ 75% rebound & abs 1 click past half to L/O w/ a teaspoon grease on top of the chamber. you're off my friend. don't ignore trailmakers post above. christ sake its his hard work n thread that makes it easier for us.


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## SVO (May 25, 2005)

Trailmaker- this seems to conflict with your previous extensive post about the need for "droop" as you put it. I actually took your advice (which was better than that of Hayes tech) and did all the tuning ignoring sag. Where sag ended up was at 1/2" or about 10%. That is simply not enough negative travel to be optimal for my trails (rocky, technical CO) or possibly any. The front end does not maintain contact well in baby head and smaller rocky sections. I continue to agree with you, your post from a couple weeks ago.

Leaving sag permanently at 10% is simply not in the neighborhood of acceptable performance. 20-30% negative travel is a necessity, not a nice bonus, for AM/Trail type riding.

Reagan was president when I bought my first MTB and I have always done my own wrenching, so I've been around the block, so to speak. I can't help but feel that there is a good deal of rationalization from some users of this fork. I have a 2012 Rockshox on my hardtail, the Manitou replaced a similar 2011 Fox and I have no particular allegiance to any of these companies. So far, for me, the Manitou is the least satisfying of the three, even after spending 3X the time I typically do to get a suspension set properly. Perhaps it is on me, but the delta here is the Manitou.



TrailMaker said:


> Oh Lord...
> 
> FORGET ABOUT SAG.
> 
> ...


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

If you dig in the thread (just do a search) there is info about shim stacks as well, which is another HUGE benefit of this fork. If you can't nail your setup with messing with just the springs and psi, look at the shim stack to tweak the performance where you want it. That is more for those who are having trouble with dialing in their mid-curves (transitions between big and small bump response speeds, pedal bob, brake dive, etc.) and not as much with sag, which is just about travel range. If you are worrying over your sag for any reason other than going through too much or too little travel, you need to adjust other things first. If you can't get your range with any amount of fiddling, you need a different spring.

With sag, I just fiddled with it a bunch as I rode around until the ride felt right for me while riding, and took note of where it with a velcro tie on the stanchion when all was said and done. I read that I needed 30% sag on this fork for my setup, but that was way too much. I used that as ballpark, and ended up putting a lot more psi in. Personal preference, I am sure, since I was riding a full rigid before and still am getting used to suspension (and I can't get a hold of the right spring, dammit!)

A firm or extra firm spring is most likely what you want, SVO, it is really preference for you being a bit between. Folks lighter than you have swapped to a firm and swore by it, and around 210 is where people find themselves not able to use less than the extra firm. You may want to try the extra firm, but it is a lot of personal preference. One thing this thread revealed is how Manitou kinda messed up the spring ranges. The medium spring most likely is NOT what you want, it is meant for probably no heavier than 170lbs. They run on the soft side.

Maybe just search 'firm spring' in this thread to get an idea what people are running, and help you figure out where you like it. And don't worry so much about sag, the right spring will get you closer than a definitive 'sag' level, and the proper shim setup will dial in the ride for individual people, setups, and preference. You can ballpark sag, and set your personal level after riding it around and messing with everything else first. If, after messing with everything else, you are getting the full travel range you need out of it, why does it matter if the number isn't by the book?

Oh, and try adding a few cc's of oil on top like fishwrinkle says too, then try adjusting again. It helps a ton.  Never hurts to say it, but low pressure in the tires also does wonders for those bitty bumps.

I gotta say, this is a GEEKY fork. If you like something you can ride right out of the box with minimal tuning, this isn't the right fork for you. If you demand the most out of your fork and want exact performance, this fork will pay off when you spend the time to customize it. The technology of MARS air is solid, in large part due to how fully customizable it is. You won't get the benefits if you don't spend the time with the fork or if you aren't tuning it correctly.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Bikemaya said:


> If, after messing with everything else, you are getting the full travel range you need out of it, why does it matter if the number isn't by the book?


I think the point SVO is making is he needs the right SAG to have better traction--not to get full travel. And he's right.

@SVO you'll probably need a softer coil spring. SAG depends on the coil spring, and you don *not* want to decrease air pressure just to increase sag, otherwise the fork becomes mushy!

Now you have the stock (ie firm) spring. You wanna try medium. I know this is generally too soft for people weighting like you, but probably depends on your position/riding style. You also have only 85psi, which is pretty low pressure, which confirms you have a different riding style/position. For example, with the stock firm spring I used to use 85psi myself, but I weigh only 145psi. Now I have a medium spring with 100psi.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

fishwrinkle said:


> 85 psi @ 210!? i'm 200 geared and have 110 psi on an x-firm spring w/ 75% rebound & abs 1 click past half to L/O w/ a teaspoon grease on top of the chamber. you're off my friend. don't ignore trailmakers post above. christ sake its his hard work n thread that makes it easier for us.


Word;

I'm 240, XX Firm spring, 150psi, compression 3 from locked, rebound... where it needs to be... wherever it is. rebound is that last thing you set, you know... SVO, your numbers tell me you ride rail trails with grandmothers, but you're the wheelie king and your front wheel rarely touches the ground. Makes no sense at all. Totally backwards. The forget about sag comment meant less type, more ride.

I'm still not totally happy with nine, but I've been too lazy to fool with it. Too happy riding my Fatbike. Don't ride the Niner much these days. I either need a stiffer spring or shim stack work.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

SVO said:


> Leaving sag permanently at 10% is simply not in the neighborhood of acceptable performance. 20-30% negative travel is a necessity, not a nice bonus, for AM/Trail type riding.


Assuming there isn't something wrong with your fork, the first mistake you made was using body mass as an absolute rule for coil spring rate. There are too many other variables that affect front weight bias, which ultimately determines the required spring rate, like cockput setup, heat tube angle, rider height, and body type. I went down the same path and went from a firm coil, to a med coil, and now I'm getting ready to try a soft coil. I'm 6'2", 165lb, riding a Yeti SB95 large.

Check out this thread if you haven't already done so.
http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/tuning-tower-pro-852107.html

I agree with TrailMaker in that sag is just a rule of thumb, but you are obviously outside of the range of what is acceptable and have already proven that. No reason to keep beating your head on the wall trying to get an answer here. Get a softer coil and go from there. If you know what you are doing, sag can be a very functional tool to determine if your coil rate is close. Once you get it close, then you can throw sag out the window and fine tune.

In my experience, these forks ride really high in the stroke (like you've described) with poor small bump and have a super soft mid stroke when the coil is too firm. These clyde's have a biased view point because they have never dealt with that. I'm coming from the opposite end of the spectrum.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Static sag is OK if all you want to do is sit still. No one I know rides like that. I care about the dynamic sag - how much the suspension dips into its travel under normal cruising along easy trail conditions - and how the bike rides. That is how I tune my suspension. With the numbers I just wrote about, I get maybe 1" of static sag (that's 20%), MAYBE, but will dip into 20-30% of the total travel in generic cruising mode. That's possibly just a tad soft, and in that portion of the travel, it is (or should be) the spring controlling this.

I generally agree with KTM250, except for the biased view point. It is a point of view, with no bias other than personal experience. If there was no negative connotation intended, then it should have been more carefully written. Regardless, this thread explains how it all works. Anyone should be able to infer and otherwise extrapolate what they need to do. Do what you need to do to make your bike work for you. If you can't get static sag, and then further a ride that you like, that infers that you need a softer spring. Try it.

SVO; have you tried no air at all? What is your static sag then? With a zip tie on the fork stanchion, what is your general dynamic sag?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow... glad to see that the work TrailMaker and Manitou put into this fork still has this thread going strong after almost 3yrs!!! Still loving my 2011 version with Firm Spring. I haven't ridden as much this year due to family issues and what not and hate just seeing my bike hanging in the garage. Things are finally quieting down so hoping that I can get back out there. 

As I have stated before, I am 190# with the Firm spring and can consistently ride with the fork at about 80psi and 3 clicks from lock. I have not added any extra oil to the top nor have I done the shim stack tuning. For me and the general XC style of ride/race that I do this setup has worked beautifully for me on my steel hardtail.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

I rode this wednesday and have a couple of observations:

Im about 240lbs , 100mm hardtail, ride XC semi agressive (mostly tecnical and enduro parks) with very little jumping maybe 1-2 feet of air, currently using XX firm spring , 5cc oil on air chamber, 135psi , 4 clicks from full lockout, rebound 25% from full fast. 


So last time I used 140 psi and now I lowered 5 psi to see the difference, I noticed that I gained a little bit more compliance on small bumps and Large hit were fine but Im still getting a harsh shaking when riding over stair like bumps (I hope I get the message through) I want to achieve better plushness (compliance) on this medium sized stair like descents. I used 90mm out of the 100mm (thats maybe because that trail is more of a speedy trail and little tecnical . Should I make rebound slower or add more psi? 

Btw the brakedive is minimal now and Im a lot happier with the fork , I just want to get it feeling better.

Im not sure if to lower or add psi , Ill try next time 150 see what happenes but Im open to ideas


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Rebound is most noticeable with small chattery bumps/rocks/roots where the ride feels busy and noisy. Add just a tad of rebound at a time, and suddenly the ride goes "quiet" and glass smooth. It's a revelation. The other side of rebound is when the bike packs down and does not return to full travel again. Too much rebound then. It feels dead and lethargic. Given your setting only 25% into the rebound, I don't think this is the problem.

My guess would be PSI. If you read the whole thread and remember how the two springs work together, you'll know that a likely scenario for your step down stiffness is that you are using up the coil and instead of gently lifting the air piston off its seat, you are hitting it. This is the spikey effect of not having a stiff enough spring to begin with, but will also be replicated if you have the right spring and keep adding air. At some point you will reach a spot where you are hitting the air piston instead of lifting it. You can keep adding small increments without much change, and then suddenly the fork gets kind of rude. This for me has meant too much air. It is less dramatic with the correct spring, but it still happens at some point. I think a hardtail may exacerbate this to some degree.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks, Ill try rebound tomorrow and play with psi (Ill try lowering it first), It seems to happen mostly at high speed though so maybe I need to play with shims too.

Ill report back tomorrow


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

cridom, keep in mind that rebound damping purely controls the spring. At only 75% open, I can't see how you have near enough rebound for how much spring you have. But, I don't think that's your problem. To fast/slow rebound will cause problems more so on fast successive bumps than the steps you secribe.

Softening the spring can help, lower psi, to a certain exctent. That much lsc (only 4 out) coupled with a firm preloaded shim stack will ride harshly on step down type impacts as you describe. Try backing off the lsc first and if that helps, you will need to soften the stack in order to keep the firmer lsc setting for chassis stability. If you don't have the ability to revalve, you will have to find a blend of softer spring and softer lsc to get ride of the spiking, and then brake dive will worst. It's always a compromise.

At 140psi and the xx coil, your springs aren't out of balance.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

thanks, That makes a lot of sense , I usually ride 4 clicks from lockout but mainly because its firm and still plush, Ill try 5-8 clicks and see how it behaves, to be honest I love the fork this is just something that would make this an incredible fork. Ill report tomorrow with results.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

cridom,
Sounds like you are at the fine tuning stage. Focus on really getting a feel for how the rebound affects ride and get it dialed as well. Sometimes it helps to set the lsc on the soft side to better feel how the fork responds to rebound changes.

Do you have a Minute or a Tower? I believe the Minute comes stock with the production xc stack, which is preloaded and digressive. You can easily remove a 1 of the preload shims, for a start, and it will have a significant affect on comp damping. The Tower comes with the production trail stack, which is also preloaded but not as digressive. Same gig, you can easily remove a preload shim. I'm not a fan of platform type damping (preloaded stacks) on my fork or shock. I prefer the linear type stacks (zero preload) in my fork. 

I'm kind of surprised the clydes aren't finding it necessary to stiffen the rebound stack. I'm a light guy and run the lsr at wide open to 10% closed. After I get the spring and comp stack dialed, I'm going to play with rebound stack.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for your comments , I have a tower pro 100mm . Im going to play with the lsc tomorrow and see how the rebound affects the ride, Im thinking moving in increments of 10-15% at a time hopefully Ill find that sweet spot. Ill read more about shim stacking tomorrow



PD: I just finished putting together the tower ( I was putting an o-ring on one stanchion, i was sick of the ziptie) and noticed how hard was to get the 12mm off ( wasnt like this the other times ) and for what Its worth Y placed the steerer tube facing down with no air and made the fork bottom out and got the bolt to come off no special impact or air tools needed


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Ad for rebound, what i notice is that with almost no rebound damping, my fork responds nicely tobsmall and fast bumps. But on middle sized obstacles, done slowly, it feels pretty bouncy, and doesn't give much confidence--the frontend doesn't feel stable.

My spring is medium coil, with 5cc of oil, and 100psi. I'll try to slow rebound again.


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

I just finished the ride , I set the rebound at 50% and It was perfect , ran 140 psi and 6 clicks from lockout ( this helped a ton for plushness on steps) , I can say that this time I rode more technical medium speed trails (20mph or a bit less average) and the fork was very very NICE! But I only got 85mm of travel, I have no complains about ride quality only wondering if I can get more travel without getting too much brakedive and keep the ride quality and control. loved the ride Ill post a video in a few days a friend recorded.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Good to hear. Quality over quantity. Won't hurt to try less spring but I wouldn't sacrifice brake dive if you're happy with the compliance of your current setup.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

This all points out the difficulty in talking about adjusting suspensions. Is it harsh or is it simply harsh? What do you mean by harsh? What you mean might be different than what someone else means. Harsh in compression? Harsh in beginning stroke or end stroke? Small or big bump? Harsh in rebound? It can be exceptionally difficult to get it all straight on a forum like this, and takes an EXHAUSTIVE amount of discussion to get it all clear.

Let's break it down.

First, it is always good scientific method to do ONE thing at a time and get a really good feel for what it accomplishes. Patience, awareness, and discernment are critical. You then set that back to the previous point before doing something else. Adjust, ride, evaluate, repeat. This is the only way you ever figure out what each adjustment does and how they weave together. It also helps to teach you to tell the difference between compression and rebound attributes. My gut says from here (I can only guess),that you would be wise to be as patient as you can and resist making too many adjustments at once until the effect of each one sinks in.

- You have 5cc on the air piston, or you ADDED 5? Adding oil there stiffens the response when the air piston starts to lift, I believe.
- You went down two clicks on Comp from 4 to 6 from Lock. That would make it more resilient in the entire stroke, but most noticeable in the early travel by far, and at the expense of some amount of dive. That should be an even trade. The flip side of that is that you might notice a spike forming when you go through the early coil travel more easily, and then reach the air piston. If you did notice this feeling, a very slight decrease in air pressure would most likely mitigate it. Never forget that what happens in the early part of the stroke with the coil spring directly effects the air spring when it is activated.
- You stayed the same on air at 140, and had mentioned that both small and big bump were good. That suggests a good basic coil/air balance. You will never get the best performance out of the fork without that balance.
- You state that you like the performance of the fork, but are now not getting full travel. This suggests that you should try less air, as it is the progressive nature of the compression of air that takes care of end stroke ramp up. Understand that this might also have the coincident effect of making the fork feel like it has more "dive." You might be then tempted to sneak another click of C back in it to slow this down a bit.
- You stated that you were seeking to derive more "plushness" and "compliance" on medium stair step type bumps. This to me suggested that you felt the compression was too stiff and you are looking to use a bit more travel in that circumstance to absorb it. This goes back to that battle of semantics.
- You state that you increased the rebound substantially (25%), and it was "perfect." Know that this is only in relation to the other settings you have now, and may change if you adjust something else that drastically. This says to me that what you were looking for in more "plushness and compliance" was actually not related to compression characteristics at all, as it sounded by the use of those terms, but rebound. Understand that rebound has no direct effect on compression at all. The use of the term "compliance" was a bit if a red herring. "Resilience" was closer to the reality, but still not overly illustrative of what was really happening. What you were actually feeling was too fast a rebound stroke, which makes the ride unsettled, bouncy, or "nervous." Not confidence inspiring. I like to use the term "noisy." You are getting far too much feedback from small chattery stuff that you simply would like to eliminate, and should be able to. Yes, you can, if you get the rebound set correctly. This is why I like to do my final rebound adjusting last. As finicky as compression work can be, it is all very coarse in nature compared to the fine tuning that the correct rebound setting brings. The trick is to separate the two in your mind; understanding what ride characteristics you are feeling, and whether they correlate to compression or rebound adjustments. That's not necessarily easy at all.

Either I have just made things clearer, or muddied the waters completely.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Who's having a problem? Arguing over semantics and terminology is pointless. Alot of your terminology isn't standard lingo but I can follow you. What makes a good tuner is being able to listen, translate, read between the lines, and respond in a simple manner that doesn't overwhelm the audience. There is no right or wrong way here, what's important are the results. I'm far from an expert, but it looks like my advice for cridom worked pretty well. I take a more simplistic approach and give them something to chew on and see some results. Its an iterative process.



TrailMaker said:


> - You went down two clicks on Comp from 4 to 6 from Lock. That would make it more resilient in the entire stroke, but most noticeable in the early travel by far, and at the expense of some amount of dive. That should be an even trade. The flip side of that is that you might notice a spike forming when you go through the early coil travel more easily, and then reach the air piston. If you did notice this feeling, a very slight decrease in air pressure would most likely mitigate it. Never forget that what happens in the early part of the stroke with the coil spring directly effects the air spring when it is activated.


You mention this notion of spiking if the coil travel is used too quickly fairly frequently. The physics don't add up unless the coil is way undersprung and the air is way over sprung. Running across the full range of lsc will not cause this. Its a simple force balance and the only thing that throws it out of balance (assuming the coil/air are halfway close to begin with) is friction in the air piston during high shaft speeds. The amount of friction is way to small to cause the coil to bottom before the air piston starts moving. The air piston starts moving fairly early in the stroke, even with a lot of air pressure.



TrailMaker said:


> Understand that rebound has no direct effect on compression at all.


Not completely true. The low speed rebound circuit (on the majority of mtb forks/shocks) flows oil in both directions. Adding lsr also adds lsc, the amount depends on the level of asymmetry between the two circuits. This is yet another reason why correct valving is crucial. This can also be used as a tuning tool if you now how to use it as an advantage. For example, I just revalved a shock for a buddy that was complaining about poor small bump even with the lsc set soft. He had to run the lsr almost full slow. Stiffening the rebound stack shifted his lsr setting to the fast end, got better rebound performance overall, and fixed his small bump issue.



TrailMaker said:


> The trick is to separate the two in your mind; understanding what ride characteristics you are feeling, and whether they correlate to compression or rebound adjustments. That's not necessarily easy at all.


:thumbsup:


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks to both of you , I understand both points of view and to me both of you are correct , you both helped me get what I wanted, I now have a plush ride with a bottomless feel and little brake dive, Ill keep tinkering with it and see if maybe less air a little less rebound maybe a couple more CC in airchamber Will get me the Same ride quality with more total travel.

To be honest ktm520 advise on rebound helped a ton and not only on steps but on all travel, even small bump were nicer , I felt fully on control, floating like and little dive which is very nice. I think that faster rebound may negate negative travel to the point of taking a way some plushness and control.

Anyways thanks trailmaker, ktm520 and all of you who got my fork to where it is right know , Ill keep posting any new configurations.

Btw I added 5cc before to the existing oil in air chamber


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Cridom, thanks for the thorough explanation of your current setup and issues. Made it easy to give advice.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

232lb's here, Just about to order 1, kinda worried it won't work well for me, believe it comes with a Medium spring ( well says so on Web site ), ordered the Firm already as it's all I can find.

But I ride with less pressure than my mate who's 180lb's area, never worked out why, must be very rear weight biased, same bike, my bike is setup 50mm stem so I try to keep weight back.

Any chance the Firm spring with my 230lb's is going to work, 100mm fork.

Also, is there no way to put some preload on that spring ?? stack of washers might work ?? get it transfering the weight to the air side sooner maybe ?? anyone tried it ??


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> 232lb's here, Just about to order 1, kinda worried it won't work well for me, believe it comes with a Medium spring ( well says so on Web site ), ordered the Firm already as it's all I can find.
> 
> But I ride with less pressure than my mate who's 180lb's area, never worked out why, must be very rear weight biased, same bike, my bike is setup 50mm stem so I try to keep weight back.
> 
> ...


Form 2012, I believe all forks were supplied with a firm spring. Mine certainly was. You can check by the color painted on the spring I don't remember the color codes so check with Manitou. That said, At your weight I would suggest an X-firm. I'm 220lbs. and prefer the X-firm but that is on a 120mm. fork I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

I don't get this problem with sourcing springs. (I'm not referring to the clyde XX-firm springs.) Any descent bike shop should be able to order a spring for you. I walked into my LBS, gave them the part number of the spring I needed and had my spring in a week for about $15.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Well;

There are good shops that want to help their clients, and ones who don't. Simple as that. I've had the same experience as Ronnie here locally, at my go-to shop. If the shop can't they should say so. If they don't want to be bothered, then they need to ask themselves why they are in a customer service business.

Yes, Manitou completely blew the spring rates for these. Yes, they seem to continue to drop the ball on spring inventory. However, the shops seem to be as much if not a bigger portion of the problem here.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

*Again;

I really don't want to come off sounding rude, but most every question now brought up on page 27 of this thread has already been answered. Yes it's a long thread, but PLEASE READ IT FIRST!!!!*

Spring preload modifications were discussed VERY early on in this thread, when I was working fairly intensively with Manitou engineers, whom I might add had no problem understanding what I was saying. How many engineers can you Skype with in this industry? Looking back, it was all rather fun.

My suggestion is to ride the fork as it comes so that you can get an idea of what is happening. Read this entire thread, and then go through all the various tuning steps previously described to evaluate how it all works. THIS TAKES TIME!!!! Without a baseline understanding like this, any mods will be harder to evaluate. Some times you wing it and it works, but not very often. Using the info here will be lengthy on the front end, but make evaluation much faster.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

I read the interview, said FIRM fitted on all forks, but saying Medium Spring on the site so ?? got it just incase, but will try it before I strip and swap just incase.

Guess I'll have to wait and see, always run some compression damping but ruins the small bump which is not the plan.

UK's supplier is hotwheels and they haven't got any in stock at all, which is just useless.

Found the chart which says for 220lb's Firm and 50psi, so 70psi for me should be fine, but hate forks which brake dive so we shall see.

Reba SL 29ers, I run 110 psi, most others run 140 area for my weight and I only get 70mm of the 100mm, so we'll see.

Moving bars and seat back 10mm's approx so weight further back and pushing front wheel forward 10mm's move due to offset.

Was going to get 120mm, just realised at 100mm I likely don't need 15mm axle, could of saved myself £100 on wheel and higher fork cost doh!!

Best to be sure I guess!!

Find out, next week I guess!


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Turveyd said:


> I read the interview, said FIRM fitted on all forks, but saying Medium Spring on the site so ?? got it just incase, but will try it before I strip and swap just incase.


The tower pro's should come with the FIRM spring by default. I would say pump the air spring to 100psi, and try to ride it without any compression damping as a test. If you can bottom the fork on a simple ride, I can tell you you need at least an X-Firm spring.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Had an issue with the rebound on my fork. It was making goofy sounds and not rebounding correctly. Called Manitou, and they said to check the oil level in the damper. 

BOOM!! Low on oil. Works good now.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> Found the chart which says for 220lb's Firm and 50psi, so 70psi for me should be fine, but hate forks which brake dive so we shall see.
> 
> Reba SL 29ers, I run 110 psi, most others run 140 area for my weight and I only get 70mm of the 100mm, so we'll see.


I don't know what chart you are refering to, but I would throw it away. 70psi will not be enough for you regardless of coil rate. The Reba numbers suggest either your front weigh bias is low or you prefer a softer spring rate. two-ones advice is about as good as you are going to get at this point. Only thing I would add is to try going higher on air before assuming the firm is too soft. The only way to know is to try it.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

ktm520 said:


> I don't know what chart you are refering to, but I would throw it away. 70psi will not be enough for you regardless of coil rate. The Reba numbers suggest either your front weigh bias is low or you prefer a softer spring rate. two-ones advice is about as good as you are going to get at this point. Only thing I would add is to try going higher on air before assuming the firm is too soft. The only way to know is to try it.


Well it's more about the sag, regardless of sag by adding air and oil you can stop the fork bottoming out, it'll just be over active and divey.

Might be here tomorrow, then I can have a play, like playing and fiddling with stuff and modifying to make perfect so sounds ideal for me 

Air pressure wise, as you increase the coil's strength you'll have to increase the airs strength, Firm and 50psi would likely start using the air part of the travel before hand, which loses the nice plushness, then the air bottoms out and the coil will quickly fly through the rest of the travel.

I'll slap 115psi in, if the sag is excessive then I'll check the coil make sure it's the firm and swap if not, and if it is a firm already then I'll fit a 10mm stack of washers, which will reduce sag 10mm's approx and start kicking in the air chamber faster, risk of going coil bound so might have to limit to 90mm travel via air.

Then set end stroke via air and oil adding to tune the ramp up.

Been tuning my own forks since my OLD RS Duke C's.

They better be good after all this


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> Air pressure wise, as you increase the coil's strength you'll have to increase the airs strength, Firm and 50psi would likely start using the air part of the travel before hand, which loses the nice plushness, then the air bottoms out and the coil will quickly fly through the rest of the travel.
> 
> I'll slap 115psi in, if the sag is excessive then I'll check the coil make sure it's the firm and swap if not, and if it is a firm already then I'll fit a 10mm stack of washers, which will reduce sag 10mm's approx and start kicking in the air chamber faster, risk of going coil bound so might have to limit to 90mm travel via air.


I can tell you right now that a firm coil with 50 psi will not support your weight. I'm 165lb and that is/was too soft for me. Some of your comments on tuning this spring aren't completely accurate. In a pinch, adding preload will get your sag in check but also affects the rest of the curve. 10mm of preload on the firm spring is getting very close to coil bind before the blue pushrod bottoms on the lower compression rod.

This notion of "kicking in the air chamber faster" has been thrown around alot in this thread and is a misconception. The air piston actually starts moving very early in the stroke even with 100+psi. This is due to the bump spring under the air piston. With a proper setup, the air piston is completely off the bump spring not too far past sag and is fully active.

If you are a tweaker, this is definitely the fork for you.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

ktm520 said:


> I can tell you right now that a firm coil with 50 psi will not support your weight. I'm 165lb and that is/was too soft for me. Some of your comments on tuning this spring aren't completely accurate. In a pinch, adding preload will get your sag in check but also affects the rest of the curve. 10mm of preload on the firm spring is getting very close to coil bind before the blue pushrod bottoms on the lower compression rod.
> 
> This notion of "kicking in the air chamber faster" has been thrown around alot in this thread and is a misconception. The air piston actually starts moving very early in the stroke even with 100+psi. This is due to the bump spring under the air piston. With a proper setup, the air piston is completely off the bump spring not too far past sag and is fully active.
> 
> If you are a tweaker, this is definitely the fork for you.


your 165 and need firmer, ECCCKKKS that's madness!!

The Manual on the site, is definately rubbish.

The Air piston and Coil will both share the same force between them, but initially you want the coil doing the work, so if you have the air pressure at 110psi, that won't start to move until the coil is producing 110psi+ ( to simplify ) of pressure.

I covered the Binding issue, yes it'll change the rest of the curve, the air side will start moving and working sooner into the stroke aswell which should help, may also force the air chamber to ramp up quicker, which might be good or bad ofcourse.

Sounds like it'll be getting me out more over the winter, trying all the different variations.

Theory as to why I ride light, my arms are weak so I have a sit up position and don't put much weight through them then through the fork, I have to ride a very short cockpit, LBS's look at me like I'm mad when I say I want a small frame, I'm 6'2"'s, then fit a 50mm stem and inline seat post, I have a long body and short arms to, maybe this will work in my favour for once LOL

Need a plusher fork, so I can ride more, my Reba SL 29ers from 06 have zero small bump sensitivity to worn out sadly.

Recent Fox's I've ridden, seem to run really high Compression damping stock, not plush at all and over 2x's the price, unless you get the fancy coating, then 3x's the price.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> your 165 and need firmer, ECCCKKKS that's madness!!


Firmer air, not coil. That was just an example. I'm running a soft spring with around 80psi and no volume reduction.



Turveyd said:


> The Air piston and Coil will both share the same force between them, but initially you want the coil doing the work, so if you have the air pressure at 110psi, that won't start to move until the coil is producing 110psi+ ( to simplify ) of pressure.


Again, not completely accurate, see my comments on bump (negative) spring under the air piston. Yes, it is a simple force balance. My point is steering away from this notion that the spring is only active the fist half or so of travel and then the air handles the second half. Everything affects everything.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

ktm520 said:


> Firmer air, not coil. That was just an example. I'm running a soft spring with around 80psi and no volume reduction.
> 
> Again, not completely accurate, see my comments on bump (negative) spring under the air piston. Yes, it is a simple force balance. My point is steering away from this notion that the spring is only active the fist half or so of travel and then the air handles the second half. Everything affects everything.


Ahhh your running Soft, had me worried there for a while!!

It's not a negative spring though is it, if 20% of the way through the Springs travel say, the strength becomes the same as the air chamber, then the air chamber at that part will start to move along with the coil, the coil will bottom out first then it's al air chamber into the end stroke.

Too low a air pressure will make the air side to active to soon.

Too high ie 300psi the fork will get to the end of the coil and come to a abrupt halt pretty much, 200psi you'd have a nasty ramp up at the end of the coil, got to find a seemless balance, which will involve them both working together.

All small bump forces, will still be handled by the coil ( until it's at full stroke ), the air chamber will be slow to lag behind, nice system.

Plusher fork = Smaller Tyre, higher air pressure faster rolling on road sections ( a lot of sadly with my group rides I do ), but still able to ride well when it gets to XC sections!

Reducing my 31.6 STIFF post, to a 27.2 Carbon ( loads out as small frame ) with a shim to improve rear comfort to, then want a cannondale trail frame for it's vertical compliance, when I can get a 2nd hand 1.

Selling my Whyte E5 to fund all of this, can't go back to slow rolling 26" wheels!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Realised I've made an error in my thinking.........

The Air Piston is floating, so as you add air you compress/preload the coil, so adding preload spacers would only lessen the size of the air chamber and in doing so lessen it's effect.

Which is why as the Coil's strength goes up they atleast appear to go shorter to increase the size / effect of the air chamber.

Arriving Saturday, will understand more when there in my hands.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Turveyd said:


> The Air Piston is floating, so as you add air you compress/preload the coil, so adding preload spacers would only lessen the size of the air chamber and in doing so lessen it's effect.


Nope. Adding preload to the coil will not move the initial position of the piston, unless you are only running 40 psi of air. Keep in the mind, the coil already has 2-4mm of preload. This is why I said adding 10mm of preload is getting close to coil bind. I can appreciate the thought process though. I'm always thinking 20 steps ahead of actually getting stuff in my hands.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

If that's the case, then I'm not seeing the full picture of how it all works in side I guess.

Floating piston can only get out via the air intake side, did read something about if this thing in the forks breaks you'll need new uppers, so guess there is a piston stop for the air piston maybe, if so that would stop the coil from being preloaded from the air piston.


Puts preload back in as possible, if I can get a washers to fit over the internal , did buy a stack of ones with 8mm internal, outter size looks like it'll do, 2p size used them as preloaders before!!

No ones mentioned preloading ever from what I've read, which I find interesting.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Wishng I'd of bought the Expert, no 15mm wheel, just add air and ride, you tube tester was very happy with him.

Found DT Swiss XMM 100's aswell for same as fork + wheel, more of a stiff XC race fork though and 300grams+ lighter.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Look at the cut view of the spring leg
untitled1


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

ktm520 said:


> Look at the cut view of the spring leg
> untitled1


Nice find, not seen that write up before, so it's my original thoughts on how it works then, air won't preload the coil totally seperate entity.

Starting to look like £400 I won't be able to use, until i import a X-Firm Coil or go on a serious diet over the winter and finish the Reba's off totally. 

Leaves the Steerer tube uncut with 30 spacers that'll get the weight back, so bad it'll wheelie up every hill


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Got the video of Coil swapping paused with the coil and push rod visible.

Adding a spacer as it isn't really preload, will force the air piston off it's stop, but air pressure will then enable the coil to be preloaded, it get a few mm's anyway most likely.

The bottom hasn't got more than 5mm's to seat the coil, wouldn't want to add much / any spacers in there, top looks better, but odds on finding anything the right size which won't cause damage looks kinda unlikely 

I had a push rode + spring coming tomorrow ( hopefully + wheel + other required bits ), so will see how it looks in the flesh.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Yep your right, no way to add preload to the coil, it really does squish it into a small area, the rod changes how much they can squish it per coil, why different coils get different travels on that chart.

BUT.... you might be able to make the rod that goes into the air piston longer, by inserting something into the hole, it would preload the coil but reduce the coils travel at the same time, but this will make the fork ramp up more towards the end stroke and any more than a few mm's and risk the piston contacting something and trashing itself.

Stuck at home, awaiting a wheel 15mm QR, fork is scheduled for delivery tomorrow, bet wheel doesn't show till monday LOL


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Well all here, but the Fork, scheduled for tomorrow, bike is stripped ready, tyre / disk swapped to new wheel, crown race removed ready for refit, new star fangled nut purchased.

Just fit crown race, cut to size, fit star fangled, add 110psi and we'll see.

Then maybe a strip and spring change / check.

Found a 80mm XFirm, would that work ? with the 100mm Rod maybe ?? If failure, will purchase!!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Not scientific, but put the coil in the forks steerer tube, lock the fork out and cycle the spring, then repeat without the coil there, fork unlocked, my forks feel softer than the coil, which is a GOOD sign, so with enough air it should be acceptable.

Fork unlocked Reba 100 110psi so similar to the Air system at the start of the stroke ( that'll ramp up more ), the coil starts to move first ofcourse but very quickly the coil gets hard to push and the fork starts to move much more than the coil is.

It's hard to judge how far ( it pings off nicely ) but reckon 15mm's of coil movement when the fork is pushed to sag level, so that's more force than me on bike generally, so as long as the MARS air part only gives up @10mm's then I'm all fine.

Yes I'm bored and impatient, want my toys!!


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

pretty sure you need to stay w/in the travel of fork for buying a spring kit, 80mm for 80mm and the like. i know that there are diff rod lengths for different spring kits designed for lets say a 120mm fork.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

I read Manitou said, I think it was a 100mm fork, used a Xfirm 120mm coil, or vice versa, said use the new coil but the 100mm rod, it's an option other than a mass starvation diet!!

Can find at US suppliers, but won't ship to UK


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

there here, let look nice, huge over sized lowers compared to the reba, weight feels the same to me, so more than good enough.

Push tests, first hadn't checked air went 50% ohhh, could feel coil ramp up then air fall though travel, had 80pis in it.

Then put 110psi in, did 3 push down tests compared to the reba and look identical 

Firms got to be in there, looks promising, I'm just weird fork spring wise.


Soooooo Sooooo plush compared to the Rebas.

Mire sleep then slap em on!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Sag looks pretty much spot on  it seriously blows through the travel though, so more air and maybe more oil in the top chamber required.

Wrong Adapter, got to put 203mm disk on the front, ohhh hell!!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

No I have 203 on this bike doh!! I ordered 185 adapter


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

It's been an interesting morning so far, brakes sorted in a 180/160 way rather than 203/180 doh!!

Okay Sag is/was fine, hoooraaaaaaa I thought.

Okay add more oil into air chamber, change the ramp up.

Remove the air, remove the top cap and it's FULL splats everywhere, drowning in the stuff, they'd over filled the oil, looking at the piston and notice the hole in the top where a rod would nicely fit, they'd put the air float in the wrong way around and over filled it.


Lets test how this rides LOL


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Oil on pads, more hassles  4pm been on this for 5hours for a simple fork swap.

Running 180psi, but I just lowered the top cylinders oil again, to the correct ammount, well 6ml's, feels stiffer so likely drop the 180 considerably.

There a magic carpet ride of plush, my local test roots just disappear the tall kerb down after them feels bottomless aswell, but even with no ABS on it's not bobbing under pedalling I can almost stand with them remaining still.

IMPRESSED!! worth the huge hassle ?? I think so, ride them proper and tune them shortly, and they'll get plusher to


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Got 25miles on them today, I see why my mates out ride me, when they steer especially on steep stuff or mud, it doesn't feel like your over steering ie nothing happens, that's the fork not turning, so much better with the QR15, just didn't realise it!!

Started off with 150psi, feels kinda hard, maybe spikey as hands where hurting, dropped to 140psi, feel softer but definately seeing the spike, fork takes a hit starts moving, then my arms get a jolt up then the fork starts moving again.

Wasn't happening, when I was running 190psi but over filled with oil ( air chamber smaller ) they felt much nicer then, so going to add in some more oil, 10ml's I guess, 150-160 psi and compromise a bit!!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

added 6ml's of oil, can get near full travel with no air in there, they feel good at 130psi, not ridden them yet, but should fingers crossed reduce that damn spike.

Less pressure and use ABS+ might work short term, but X Firm coil or lose some weight I guess.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

TrailMaker said:


> *Again;
> 
> I really don't want to come off sounding rude, but most every question now brought up on page 27 of this thread has already been answered. Yes it's a long thread, but PLEASE READ IT FIRST!!!!*
> 
> ...


I don't even have a Manitou fork, but I've been reading through this entire thread (well, skimming) and I gotta say, Trailmaker. GOOD JOB! :thumbsup:
Your thread stands as an example of how a thread on what is knowns to be a mere product-shill-site like emptybeer can really do some GOOD! A SHINING example.
KUDOS! and many 'Thumbs UP"! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Btw, no Manitou forks, but I do have two Manitou 3-Way Swinger air shocks on a couple bikes. One is a 2005 Ellsworth Joker single-pivot...it has the longest throw 3-wWay they made, so I get 7" or a bit less of good pedaling travel on a 28 lb "Free-ride sled" of a frame (With a Rockshock Lyric up front).

Second 3-Way is on a FS singlespeed (I know; heresy right there.....but so far I ain't been Drawn & Quartered for it) I made out of a 2005 Jamis Dakar XLT with 5" of travel front and rear. I wanted a single speed but at my age I also like my bones to go along for the ride without any more trauma after 6 decades of a rough-and-tumble life. (Literally).

I'm quite happy with both of these shocks...as a lightweight (185 lb.s) they do a fine job for me.

Keep up the good work of making eMpTyBeeR look like a decent site, after all!
/Ray.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

*Ruh roh...*









I seem to recall seeing this exact same injury somewhere else in this thread, but I can't seem to find it. I found the crack while swapping in my new clyde spring (thank you SO MUCH swildnm! You are my hero ). It goes all the way through to the end of that bolt hole, but the other hole on that side is intact. Is this injury rideable? Should I? Fork is less than a year old, and I have barely ridden it. Been plagued with problems though, also can't get it to stop leaking oil. Most likely ruined my nice ice-tech pads as well, but I might have been able to save them. Haven't been able to take them for a real test yet. When I opened it just now, there was like 5ccs in it, and it was gunky and nasty. I have ridden it maybe 4 times since I last serviced it, none of the rides over 2 hours. What the heck??

Anywho, is this gonna cost me? Or will Manitou take care of everything? Riding season started a couple months ago, and I really want to get this bike up and running... Sooo bummed...


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Tried more oil, couldn't get it to stop blowing through the travel, so went to Min Oil 7cc's ( maybe 5cc's ) covering the piston anyway, 170psi and being intentionally hard on them getting 90mm's of travel in the street, can't feel spiking while hitting kerbs hard and fast but all I've got around.

Rebound damping, is nearly on slowest, just a tweak higher, could of just been that kicking back to fast beating me up maybe ??


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Bikemaya said:


> View attachment 844098
> 
> 
> I seem to recall seeing this exact same injury somewhere else in this thread, but I can't seem to find it. I found the crack while swapping in my new clyde spring (thank you SO MUCH swildnm! You are my hero ). It goes all the way through to the end of that bolt hole, but the other hole on that side is intact. Is this injury rideable? Should I? Fork is less than a year old, and I have barely ridden it. Been plagued with problems though, also can't get it to stop leaking oil. Most likely ruined my nice ice-tech pads as well, but I might have been able to save them. Haven't been able to take them for a real test yet. When I opened it just now, there was like 5ccs in it, and it was gunky and nasty. I have ridden it maybe 4 times since I last serviced it, none of the rides over 2 hours. What the heck??
> ...


I'm tad nuts, but if your unwilling / can't afford new lowers!!

Epoxy 2 part metal stuff is good, first epoxy the crack, removing all of the paint first, then with all the paint removed, build a structure to keep it all nice and safe around those bolts and up the leg for max surface area.

But as I said I'm NUTS!!


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

bikemaya i'd have to say that hayes should warranty that


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

fishwrinkle said:


> bikemaya i'd have to say that hayes should warranty that


I don't necessarily agree with you. Those pinch bolts are just that, "pinch bolts". I'd like to know if they were tightened to spec. with a torque wrench. This is the specified torque:

TABLE 5 - RECOMMENDED TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS
ITEM TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS - Nm (in-lbs) 
HEX AXLE BOLTS 3.4 - 4.5 Nm (30 - 40 in-lb)

Which is not very tight.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

You see, that is the part that worries me. I didn't tighten them *too* tight, though I don't have a torque wrench. I am a girl, so it's not like I can get it *that* tight anyways! I am worried they would reject a warranty claim on that particular injury. Then again, maybe it was too *loose*, and I came down on it wrong... who knows...


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

IDK, but the area at the lower point of the hexagon looks to be flawed in the casting procedure. if you look at the area opposite of the cracked ear, right behind the bolt heads, there should be material in that wedge shape. so when new and bolts tightened the slot should be barely visible. as far as torque goes, i don't. i'm not taking a torque wrench to the trail every time i take the bike off the roof rack. definitely try to get a warranty, all they can do is say no & then ask for new lowers.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Bikemaya said:


> You see, that is the part that worries me. I didn't tighten them *too* tight, though I don't have a torque wrench. I am a girl, so it's not like I can get it *that* tight anyways! I am worried they would reject a warranty claim on that particular injury. Then again, maybe it was too *loose*, and I came down on it wrong... who knows...


I'm replying to you in the interests of making you understand that if you are going to work on your bike a torque wrench is fairly important and you can get something like a Parktool TW-1 for about $40. It could save you money in the long run.

Torque is determined by multiplying the applied force by the distance from the pivot point to the point where the force is applied. If for example you are using a 6 inch wrench you would only need to apply 5lbs. of force (6in X 5lb. = 30 in-lbs.) to reach the required torque. Therefore you can see that it would be quite easy to over tighten some bolts.

That said I'd suggest you contact Manitou and see what they can do for you. They have great customer service.

By the way I have one of those 20mm. hex axle forks too.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

I sent one of the web forms to hayes yesterday, and have not heard back yet. Should I call, or is there sometimes a delay when catching up from the weekend?


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## swildnm (Aug 23, 2012)

I had the same cracks on the Circus Expert I have on my jump bike, and I torque everything, I think they may have had a run of bad lowers. Hayes took care of it. I sent in the fork and got it got it back a week later with a new set of lowers. 

You absolutely need to invest in a decent torque wrench if you are working on bikes, or anything else really. You can find some good deals on quality torque wrenches on Ebay. I've seen excellent deals on CDI, Utica. both high end US made industrial brands, but not as well known as Snap-on, Mac etc.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Bikemaya said:


> View attachment 844098


Yeah, don't ride that anymore and disregard any half-baked ideas to fix it.

Years ago, I was following a friend down powder puff trail at Snowshoe (downhill rutted out fire road) when the arch on his fork broke. Man was that ever ugly. You don't want to experience that.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

wv_bob said:


> Yeah, don't ride that anymore and disregard any half-baked ideas to fix it.


:thumbsup:

I usually hear back from Manitou within 36hrs, sometimes shorter. Never hurts to call though.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

I got a response! They asked for the picture, the tech said 'yup, that sure is cracked' and gave me RA number, just like that! Awesome customer service! Will run to the post office today and try to find the cheapest way to ship it. Its so light, regular first class might be cheaper than flat rate...


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bikemaya said:


> I got a response! They asked for the picture, the tech said 'yup, that sure is cracked' and gave me RA number, just like that! Awesome customer service! Will run to the post office today and try to find the cheapest way to ship it. Its so light, regular first class might be cheaper than flat rate...


Ya Manitou/Hayes has really stepped up their products as a whole and added really awesome customer service... with a little work they can be on top of the fork wold again and maybe fix issues and be a sweet disc brake too


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

I looked closely at the lowers as I packed them up. There is that wedge of metal there to prevent them from joining... however, the angle that connects the cracked piece to the rest of the lowers, when compared to the other side, appears to be warped/ bent. I looks like I came down on it funny, it bent one side and cracked the other that was stressed in response.

Certainly odd since I don't do anything advanced, no drops, minor bumps only, and have never crashed it (just tipped it, that is always how I fall!)


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Part of me wonders why you had the axle socket end out of the fork leg ...


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

wv_bob said:


> Part of me wonders why you had the axle socket end out of the fork leg ...


There is no "axle socket" on that fork the casting is the axle socket. It's a 20mm. hex axle, You have to loosen the pinch bolts and remove the axle to remove the wheel.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Ah, thanks, I thought it was a 15QR and didn't look hard enough for photos. My fault.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Well I got the X Firm spring in tonight. Made a world of difference. Can't wait for a long ride on Sunday. here is my baby!


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## shugarbear (Aug 28, 2012)

sweet bike... all you manitou guys, do you feel that these towers "flex" ??? in some of the reviews of manitou they seem to not have the best ranking as a stiff fork.


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## amadkins (Jun 19, 2008)

shugarbear said:


> sweet bike... all you manitou guys, do you feel that these towers "flex" ??? in some of the reviews of manitou they seem to not have the best ranking as a stiff fork.


No worse than the talas, float, reba, or marzocchi 44 micro ti I've tried. The tower pro has my favorite damper of the bunch too.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

shugarbear said:


> sweet bike... all you manitou guys, do you feel that these towers "flex" ??? in some of the reviews of manitou they seem to not have the best ranking as a stiff fork.


Quote from Steve Worland of BikeRadar (dated 2011, if that matters):

"Towers are far better than similarly priced Manitous used to be in terms of flex under heavy braking, and the through-axle versions don't twist enough for it to ever be an issue on normal trails. That said, they still exhibit more twist than many of the big name opposition on our fixed position test rig. Flex under heavy braking is only really noticeable in their longest travel setting on steep bumpy descents."


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

shugarbear said:


> sweet bike... all you manitou guys, do you feel that these towers "flex" ??? in some of the reviews of manitou they seem to not have the best ranking as a stiff fork.


My Tower flex's *WAY LESS* than the Reba it replaced,.. but note that the Reba was a Quick release and the tower is a 20mm axle which changes things a good bit.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Which Reba? Rebas before '10 were relatively primitive and very flexy. I once called them flexy as a noodle and got mobbed by angered RockShox fanboys.

See the before and after:



















Actually, I think Rebas past '12 are on the SID chassis now, and the Reba updated chassis is now the Revelation chassis. I think the main difference is in the crown, with the SID/Reba having a less stout and lighter weight CSU.


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## SVO (May 25, 2005)

I had an early Reba on a Lenzsport for years. It was somewhat flexy, but hardly terrible nor hugely different from similar forks of the day. But I am a marginal Clydesdale. Depends on so many things, including weight, head angle and positioning on the bike. Other than super race weenie light forks of a couple generations ago, I don't think there are major differences in effective stiffness among similar competing products from the major manufacturers.


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

Manitou came through with the repair!

Got my clyde spring installed, lowers replaced, stanchions cleaned, spring freshly greased, new oil. Swapped rotors to smaller ones, bled front brake, adjusted front and rear derailleurs, installed new saddle, lubed and cleaned chain, messed with spacer stack again (I am going to try an upright position for a while since I don't have riser handlebars and see what I think). Took her for a test ride, I believe I need more psi in fork (started with a modest 100 psi, definitely not enough) and rear brake needs a quick bleed too. Then Javelina should be ready for the trails!


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Your gonna need at least 140psi in there if you got the Clyde spring

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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Your gonna need at least 140psi in there if you got the Clyde spring. Its your bike so obviously set it up as you wish, but those spacers look ridiculous right now. I've seen downhill bikes with the bars lower than those!
But dont get me wrong, you've built yourself a nice ride there, go get it dirty!
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Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Bikemaya (Sep 24, 2012)

The fork is uncut so I can play with them. I am trying to feel out what I like, and have hated it all so far. So I am trying to basically start at zero and gradually work my way down the fork to nail it.

I think I ended up wirh around 165 or so psi, and for the first time, I can feel the spring working! Small bumps were not activating it, but medium felt really nice. No big bumps yet, need to go find some!


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

Loving my Pro Qr15 10mm's, there Plush as Plush, but don't really notice they are there which is kinda ideal really, they don't bob excessively at the same time and feel bottomless on drops.

Also, never been able to ride through mud, my bars flap around and nothing really happens, went back to 26" for ages as that worked better, these days I can ride through mud and turn and really steep descents like everyone else, don't know if it's the QR15 of the +10mm's of Offset sorting this issue out.

Running a 203mm rotor there was flex backwards under braking, still is I guess, but haven't noticed it since the first ride so fine.

The Brace seems to be in the ideal location to catch all the mud aswell I get nothing even on fast descent hitting me in the face  and it's plastered in mud, don't need a mud guard or glasses, awesome.

242lb's currently and running 150psi with the firm standard spring, no real issues, maybe a bit to falling through on drops but fine.


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

where can I buy Manitou Tower pro 80mm spring extra firm ?
Support | Manitou
We no longer stock elastomers but here are two web sites that do:
http://things-for-sale-online.com/ - does not exist !
and suspensionforkparts - Home old stuff , no springs ?
where do you go to get springs and elastomers ?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

rschultz101 said:


> where can I buy Manitou Tower pro 80mm spring extra firm ?
> Support | Manitou
> We no longer stock elastomers but here are two web sites that do:
> http://things-for-sale-online.com/ - does not exist !
> ...


Why are you talking about elastomers? Manitou has not made a fork using elastomers for probably more than ten years.

Go to your local bike shop and ask them to order a ride kit (spring and rod) for your fork. Here is the part number:

2. Ride Kit - X Firm 80 141-25690-K005

From Manitou Service guide:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

thanks ! 
called Manitou 2x , still waiting
elastomers, all those spring kits show them , have no clue, that's why
called LBS, guess it's not in QBP, they have to call Manitou
have not got a price for that kit yet ,... ?
there is no online plate to buy those spring kits ....
just got call, not available, call back in 2 weeks ?!
so manitou does not have them !?

now, where can I get those washer/ spacers ?



Ronnie said:


> Why are you talking about elastomers? Manitou has not made a fork using elastomers for probably more than ten years.
> 
> Go to your local bike shop and ask them to order a ride kit (spring and rod) for your fork. Here is the part number:
> 
> ...


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Since we are posting on this thread again... I'm really close to picking up a 120mm Tower Pro. The price is more than half of other forks. Am I silly not to just pull the trigger? I don't really want to fuss too much, and like to get it feeling good and then just ride... My other option is to maybe get a Revelation 130mm fork or something, but its 2 times the price. Will it give me 2 times the performance of the Tower Pro? The 2014 Manitou forks seem to be much more expensive, and they also don't seem readily available yet either. I wouldn't mind the new platform, if its better than the Tower Pro. Thoughts on either issue from the Tower Pro owners?


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Buy it as long as you know you can get the proper spring kit for it

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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Hi, guys!
I have the Tower Pro 29" 140mm 15mm axle fork of 2013.
Just new, never riden.
But it has some "free travel" dependently of the air preassure.
Now it is about 3-5mm, the preassure is appropriate to my weight of about 87kg(191lbs)
I mean when I push the fork then let it expose free it does not open fully and I need to stretch it to the maximum by hands and it is 3-5mm of so called free travel.
Installed on the bike with the wheel when to push then release to let expose then pull up the wheel over the ground it goes for about 4 mm down to full expose under the wheel's weight.

When I tried to lower the preassure that "free travel" became about 10mm or more.

Hope you understand my description.

So what could you suggest to eliminate it ?
Is it not enough oil somewhere or etc?
I did not disassembled the fork ever, it is new, I bought it a month ago from Green Canyon Outfitters through ebay for a great price.
At the rest other the fork seems is working well.

Also I have the 2010' Marzocchi 44 TST2 29" 15mm axle bought never riden new recently.
And it has the same thing of free travel slightly!
Obviously, the issue is common for them both. So I hope it is not the broke it just needs some tweak.

I wrote to Manitou directly but only after a week or so I received the reply not from them but from the local reseller who asked "Hi! What is the problem with a fork ?"
They didn't even ask the model. After I noted that and describe the same again they asked where I bought the fork, what is the serial number and asked to send the fork to them for a service.
What is the differrence where the fork is bought...strange.
And of course it is no acceptable to send the just received fork to some reseller even if he calls himself an official representative.

So I started to search the info on the web prior to get in the disassembling/investigating process.

May be there is precise solution for it without experiments, because I really want to start to ride it quickly than to dive in the tweaking forever.

Thanks in advance!


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

"mixolydian", I realize that English is not your first language and I have a bit of a problem understanding what you are asking but I think you are saying that there is a bit of friction and your fork is not extending fully, by a few millimeters. If it is a brand new fork I would say that it normal. The following is from the Manitou Owners Manual:

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2014-Fork-Owners-Manual.pdf

"BREAK-IN
Your new fork is designed to break in during your first few rides (about 20 hours total 
riding time). Prior to break-in, you may notice your fork feels tight and slightly notchy. 
Following the break-in period, your fork will feel much smoother and will react to 
bumps much better than when you first put it on your bike. After 20 hours, you may 
want to recheck adjustments (where applicable) to fine-tune the fork completely."

I also want to ask you what pressure you are putting into the fork. When you pump it up higher than needed does it extend all the way? If so you just need to ride it so that it can loosen up.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Sounds normal to me when you said on the bike there supposed to be a certain amount of sag on a hundred 40 millimeter fork when you sit it should be probably at least 20 to 30 millimeters of sag. I say just go ridin see how it feels

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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks for understanding, Ronnie.
And sorry for mistakes.
You've understood right. The fork does not extends fully by itself: 
6mm at 50psi
4mm at 90psi
3mm at 150psi

It does not extend all the way at 150 psi
I wouldn't try to pump it more.

But the fork is not feel tight and slightly notchy. It is smooth as for me.
May be it will become smoother.
Well, I will ride and see what will happening.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

150 psi is way too much for u at your weight. Do you know what spring you have in there

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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

cpfitness said:


> 150 psi is way too much for u at your weight. Do you know what spring you have in there
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Yes, I know.
My preassure is about 90psi
150psi preassure I've tried on by Ronnie's question to see if the free travel is reducing with the preassure increasing.
Seems it is reducing but very few.
May be at 250psi it will eliminate.
But I will use 90psi as it seems well for my 87-90kg.

Don't know the firnness of the spring inside.
I've got the fork recently and didn't disassemble it yet... and don't want to  That's why I'm asking here and there.
But if that issue doesn't vanish and get me to the bone I'll get into the fork for sure 

Will ride and see. Thanks.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

mixolydian, I also have a 2010 Marz. 44 TST2 fork that was plagued by problems from the start. Up until that point, I was a die-hard 'Zokes devotee...I loved my other, older, forks. But that fork, even after I sent it back to Marzocchi for factory-fixing, still had the 'dead' travel at the top, and also had a nasty, travel-reducing creep when I set it at full extension on the top of a climb. Not cool to find your fork going from 140 mm travel at the top of the hill, down to 100mm at the bottom!

Since then, I've avoided Marzocchi products completely. Too bad, but I just don't want to take the chance on them again.
To this day, that near-brand-new fork is still sitting in my garage.


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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Old Ray said:


> mixolydian, I also have a 2010 Marz. 44 TST2 fork that was plagued by problems from the start. Up until that point, I was a die-hard 'Zokes devotee...I loved my other, older, forks. But that fork, even after I sent it back to Marzocchi for factory-fixing, still had the 'dead' travel at the top, and also had a nasty, travel-reducing creep when I set it at full extension on the top of a climb. Not cool to find your fork going from 140 mm travel at the top of the hill, down to 100mm at the bottom!


It is slightly offtop but - Wow!
I want to beleive my Zocchi is free of that issues.
Actually I've got it also not so long ago at winter and didn't really ride it.
It is for my project that still waits for the brakes, tires, chain, cables.
So I will able to try the Bomber TST2 fork in the ~2monthes I guess.

My Marzocchi is 140mm model but set at 120mm now.
I will sure set it at 140mm. And also to remake it to shim-stack (which I already bought ) as some guy did at this forum.
So no doubt - I will need to get in it and tweak. And then I will try also to understand the reason of that dead travel.

But consider Tower Pro I'd really do not want to get into it because it is brand new and very well made according to 99% reviews and seems there is nothing specialy to tweak much (at least for now).


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Do you have the rebound closed?


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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

ktm520 said:


> Do you have the rebound closed?


Tried differrent positions of the rebound.
The "dead" travel does not depend of the position of the rebound neither in Tower Pro nor in Bomber 44 TST2.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

So when is Manitou going to release a 36mm stanction fork for 29ers? I think they are really lacking in that market, and there is room for a new guy to come along and sell some forks.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

What length fork would you be running to justify the added weight?? 160mm? Seems unnecessary on a 140mm or less fork...


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## emp? (Sep 8, 2009)

anyone got a link to buy the xxfirm springs from
want to pull the trigger on a fork but not much use without the spring


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

jkidd_39 said:


> What length fork would you be running to justify the added weight?? 160mm? Seems unnecessary on a 140mm or less fork...


 :madman::madman::madman::skep:

The added weight? Are you aware of the title for this thread? You will never here a true CYLDESDALE say [insert winey little nerd voice here] "Ohh, how much does that fork weight...." If he/she does, they need to have their head checked.

We all have our opinions....my opinion is that a 203mm rotor trying to stop a 250lb rider is a very tough job for a fork, and my 120mm PRO doesn't seem all the stiff when doing so. In typical clyde fashion, I don't care about weight, I want performance.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Agree with you. I'm about 255 with a 203 rotor and its pretty flexy looking. Doesn't help that I have the 1 1/8 steerer and 9mm qr setup tho. I'd like to sell my 120 tower and put a 140 taper on with 15 thru axle but my hubs aren't convertable so it becomes an expensive proposition.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I have a Tapered 15mm TA fork and it is still not all the impressive. I am thinking a Pike (wayy too much $$) or Xfusion Trace might be a better fit for the next build I have planned.


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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Hi all!
Recently I've posted here about the "dead travel" of my Tower Pro 29".
Well, rode it from that time till now - nothing changed neither to worse nor to better: the dead travel not going to vanish or eliminate.
It starts annoying me.

Did somebody has same issue and fix it ?
What is this could be ? not enough oil ? broken spring ? etc.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

what did manitou say?

have you broke it down and look?


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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Manitou even didn't reply. 
Instead of it after a week of waiting I received the answer from someone called himself an official dealer and asking me "What's the problem with a fork ?" 

( I'm in Ukraine, Kyiv city. Seems Manitou just redirected my ask to local dealer.
BUT WHY ???
That man has contacted me from other city in Ukraine, far from Kyiv.)

Well well....this is what I do want to know - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM AND HOW TO SOLVE IT?

I asked him - "Don't you want to know at least the model of the fork ?"
"And why you don't know the model while Manitou has redirected my ask to you ?"
He asked the serial number telling may be this is the fork of the deffected series. Also he told I should send them my fork for servicing anyway because it is their style of work. 

Of course I refused.

That's all the story.

No, I did not disassembled it yet. Have no time for it still.
That's why I'm searching for possible similar issues.
I saw on the net something similar a couple of monthes ago but forget where it was.

I must say I'm here not to claim Manitou or etc.
No.
I like the fork a lot - very well if not awesome!
Just need to tweak that small issue.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

mixolydian said:


> Manitou even didn't reply.
> Instead of it after a week of waiting I received the answer from someone called himself an official dealer and asking me "What's the problem with a fork ?"
> 
> ( I'm in Ukraine, Kyiv city. Seems Manitou just redirected my ask to local dealer.
> ...


I'm sorry to hear your problem is not fixed. I have also had to send Manitou products a long distance here in the USA, to resolve problems.

Are you concerned that the person is not the legitimate Manitou dealer in the Ukraine? If so here is the official distributor from the Manitou site:

Ukraine
TATUBIKE
Glavnaja
[email protected]
Phone: 380-50-6736434
Fax: 380-31-2712100
TATU-BIKE | ????? ???????????
Sales
Service
Warranty

It is a normal procedure for Manitou (and other manufacturers) to have problems around the world handled by their local distributors. If you are not able to solve the problem yourself, you will need to send it in for service.


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## mixolydian (Mar 11, 2014)

Yes, this is it. TATUBIKE's man contacted me.
But I don't want any dealers here to have deal with and moreover to send them the fork. (The prices here are just crazy, beleive me.
The ebay prices are high, but our dealers are totally bonkers. )
If there were no ebay or other inet places I would never have this fork or other parts. 

I'm able to speak and write the language of the manufacturer.
I have graduated a technical university. So, without excessive details - all ok with understanding.
I'm not less minded than any dealer here in Ukraine, beleve me. And I can finally disassemble it by myself for investigation.

I think that it is somewhat of a common issue and there is a enough defined TROUBLESHOOTING instruction.

But If I don't want to be in contact with the dealer who ask me "WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH A FORK?" after my detailed description sent to Manitou, so what ?
There will be no reply directly at all???

I contacted directly and wanted the reply from the HEART of the company.
Seems to me it is natural.
Because they should know better than anyone what to do with such issues.
I bet they have such cases.

If someone doesn't speak English at all, there is an official local dealer to take care (whos prices, frankly speaking, are awful as for me)


Well...seems like there is no other way besides to get in the device preliminary studed the manual.

But if someone has same issue and read this - please contact me free or write here.

Thanks!


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Going to somewhat resurrect this thread after a month of silence.

I have been happy with my Manitou Tower Pro 100mm that is on my steel hardtail since I purchased it. In the beginning of this thread I contributed as much as I could but I am honestly right on the threshold of being a clyde (6' and 190ish#s) and when I started on this bike I was about 230#s. After years of riding the forks has needed little to no attention, been through some serious gnar and even won me a local XC race last year!

As I have gotten older and riding harder and harder terrain I am finding myself just getting beaten up more to the point that I have decided to build a FS trail bike. The steel ht will still be around and pull double duty as a commuter/xc bike and the trail bike will become my main ride when heading up into the hills.

I have purchased the Hammerhead Thumper frame which is built around a 130mm+ platform with a 68* HTA at 140mm. I would love to tighten the hta slightly to make it a little more XC oriented but figure that I will not go lower than 120mm if I can. This is where I am presented with a problem. Do I got with a Tower Pro 120mm (starting to become unobtanium) or do I make the jump for the more trail geometry and go with a 140mm? I have read a few posts on here and other sites that people feel that once you hit the 140mm fork it then becomes more "flexy". However, there is no real description of what that means to them.

Manitou has done right by me in the past and present so I would like to keep giving them my money but with the change from the TOWER name and now splitting the fork into two classes; one XC oriented (MARVEL) and one XC/Trail oriented (MINUTE) the new MRSP is going to be around $700. That is a bit rich for my blood seeing as i purchased my Tower new for $276 but again I want to give them my business.

So I am looking for some DETAILED feedback from the guys running the 140mm fork. These seem a bit easier to find (in tapered with QR15) than the 120mm and are in my price range. The other option is to do the trade-in loyalty program with Manitou where I trade in my current Tower for a Marvel or Minute at a discounted price (both in the $450 range) in what I am looking for, but I want to keep this fork on my ht as I am not getting rid of it.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Greg, I know that Manitou didn't offer an xx-firm spring on the 140mm version of the Tower PRO, but I am not sure if you require that at your weight. I too am in the market for a 140mm fork, and am just now trying to catch up with the new Minute (wtf would you to back to an old naming convention?). I want to know that it can handle my 230 lbs and be up to snuff with regards to construction. 

Right now the 140mm fork to beat is the Pike, and Manitou is basically barking up that tree @ their msrp. I have not seen a peep regarding this new fork, and would like to have someone chime in.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Realistically the RS Pike is the best bet for a 140-150mm 29er fork. 

I push my tower 140 pretty hard on my HT. I wouldn't like it on a FS bike I know I would push harder thru gnar. I think I'm gonna get a thumper too or maybe the new titus el guapo. It will get a RS pike. No question


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I frankly do not know what is going on at Manitou. It seems like only about two people work there, as nothing ever seems to get better and they just seem swamped and unable to get their shite together in terms of parts and service. I don't know how they never seem to have springs, for instance. It seems like to me they need to hire a bunch of people and break down the division of labor a bit better. Too much work for too few people!

They certainly did make a Clyde Coil (XX Firm) for the 140mm Pro because I have one, but I don't know why no one else seems to be able to get one. Quite honestly I think even it is a bit under spec for my 240lbs. I think it could be stiffer.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

It seems really odd to me that they have a bunch of brand new stuff, but little to no press on the updates. I want a Minute PRO, but worry that it is just a rebadged 140mm TOWER. 

Trailmaker, every time I asked for a XXFIRM spring for the 140mm PRO, they said x-firm only.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

that sucks that their CS went south so soon after the "big turn around" w/ the company. i too need a new fork as i take my tower outta bounds too often. i need something more free ride oriented and i guess i'm straying from manitou for a pike.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Put the pistols away, who said their CS went south??? I've had nothing but great support/communication throughout the last year or more. Talked to them last week.

jonshonda, I wouldn't say the new Minutes are purely a rebadged Tower, but the damper/spring haven't changed. I think the only thing they really changed on the chassis is the crown. Shoot them an email. They'll promptly answer any truths you seek.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

well if they can't figure out what parts are available for their forks, then i say it's going south. my six shooter is a smoking


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

ktm520 said:


> Put the pistols away, who said their CS went south??? I've had nothing but great support/communication throughout the last year or more. Talked to them last week.
> 
> jonshonda, I wouldn't say the new Minutes are purely a rebadged Tower, but the damper/spring haven't changed. I think the only thing they really changed on the chassis is the crown. Shoot them an email. They'll promptly answer any truths you seek.


On a good note I did call Hayes roughly 7 times throughout the day, with no one picking up. Manitou tech service went directly to voice mail. I did leave a message in the early afternoon, which was answered before 5pm. I am sad I missed it.

What also makes me sad it the major price hike on the Minute PRO. I don't know that I want to pay a premium for a new crown. I would however pay some cash for a stiffer fork.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Ha, my lbs always complains about getting them on the phone. We definitely got spoiled by the deals we got on the TP's. I'd still pay the new prices over Fox or RS.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Thing is that they are a company that is trying to rebuild their image. At this point that means they are working on getting new products out there as best they can and it seems like the Tower Pro may have been a way to get some customer feedback without having to change the lineup or the design of the product. 

Now they can offer something better for us. From what I have read/heard the Minute has thicker stanchion walls that add to the stiffness of the 32mm stanchions. How true this is we will not know until one gets on a test bike somewhere. From my last talks with them the Minute/Marvel are not slated to be released to the US until the mid to late summer. 

Honestly I am hoping for a 29er version of the Mattoc for my trail/enduro bike.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i am very interested in the mattoc too, but how long do we have to wait for a 29? there's always a pike


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

fishwrinkle said:


> i am very interested in the mattoc too, but how long do we have to wait for a 29? there's always a pike


I want a pike, but don't like the price tag and the mixed reviews regarding its quality and the numerous issues.


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## spartticus (Jun 28, 2010)

Does anyone know where I can purchase a new/replacement Hex Lock QR15 front axle? I have a 2013 Manitou Tower and the black plastic (or cheap rubber?) bushing snapped in two so there's too much play when I try to lock down the axle lever. Any insight?


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