# New tail lights and other colors that make cars swerve away.



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

I walked past a taxi with 2 purple and 2 blue lights on the front. They got my attention and I took a step to the side, even though I was on the other side of the street. He had 4 colored led lights along with his normal headlights. On the same night. I cycled along a trail, to test my new bright headlight. From the other direction came a cyclist with a very bright headlight, and 2 reflective bands, one on each arm. I went from thinking I was alone in the woods, too what the - is that. Looked a little like a bird that reflects light. I got a little closer, on a narrow trail. If I had 3 or 4 secomds to think about it, I would have looked at the ground, and moved over a little. With only 1 or 2 seconds notice, I failed to take action.

What color or combination causes motorists to automatically move to the side, or give some leeway? Over the winter, more 150 tail lights came to market. A new crop of brighter tail lights to choose from.

Any ideas on which lights make us safer?


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Too many are concentrated just on lumens. The most important thing after dark is visibility, so those that emit light at wider angles is best.

Much of the gimics out there are totally pointless. Like the laser lines on the road. I face palmed when I saw those.

The ones that say you can be seen a mile away are pointless too except to the few that have flat straight roads that go for miles. And those lights are all but useless when you get into an urban environment because unless your right in line with the beam, it's likely you won't even notice it.

Something that has intensity but spread, 100-200 lumen range (bigger lights not these tiny things) that is plenty bright on the sides and look big and bright from behind (wide angle not just in line with the LEDs) is going to give you the most safety.

Your risks are on pavement being hit by drivers that aren't paying attention. You want their attention when they are at the distance to respond, not just a mile away when that gives them time to become distracted again.

After experiencing the difference between tiny lights and bigger ones, won't use tiny ones again. People need to put safety over weight.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## heybrady (May 31, 2009)

Around here (Ohio), the ODOT slow plow trucks have alternating flashing Yellow and Green lights. To me, it makes it immediately obvious that it is a slow plow truck and not a tow truck or emergency vehicle. I've always wondered why something like a green light wouldnt be better for bicycles. I get the whole 'they are a vehicle' thing, but in reality, they arent. They are moving much slower and not in a dedicated lane. A green blinky would tell a motorist that it is a bicycle and nothing else. It would also stick out among the many red lights that you see in an urban area with lots of cars around.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> T
> 
> ...The ones that say you can be seen a mile away are pointless too except to the few that have flat straight roads that go for miles. And those lights are all but useless when you get into an urban environment because unless your right in line with the beam, it's likely you won't even notice it.
> 
> Something that has intensity but spread, 100-200 lumen range (bigger lights not these tiny things) that is plenty bright on the sides and look big and bright from behind (wide angle not just in line with the LEDs) is going to give you the most safety....


I don't think I'd go as far to say all small rear lamps are useless. Even small lamps can provide a wide ( or fairly wide ) beam pattern. It just depends on the manufacturer on how well they design the lens. Case in point; Take the example of the Cygolite Hotshot. The original version had quite a narrow beam. That said, even it's narrow beam was not laser like. Viewed from a distance over 100 ft., there is still a good amount of light visible from a wider angle. Only when approaching close does the amount of light begin to fade. Usually by that time the person using the lamp has been seen. Hard to miss anyone using any kind of rear lamp with an output over 50 lumen...unless they just have it aimed wrong. Newer versions of the Hotshot are not only more brighter but are using an even wider projection lens, making it more visible when just before passing.

I'm not dissing the rear lamps that provide the super wide light. I think they're great but some of those aren't nearly as bright at distance. That said most of the rear lamps I usually see people using ( and I drive for a living at night ) are usually the crappiest, smallest, low-output type. On the other hand when ever I see someone using a more modern, brighter rear light, I find it it is always very visible ( IMO ), regardless of the viewing angle.

I'm of the opinion; It's not the size of the lamp, it's the spread of the beam pattern and the intensity of the light. Couple that with a UI that offers a good choice of flash patterns and you have something that works to get you seen. Nothing wrong with larger lamps but not ever one wants something big.

Tonight while driving home ( @ 2AM ) I saw a cyclist just before pulling into my complex going the opposite way. He had a rather nice rear light. I have no idea what it was but it was bright and it was very observable from the front, from the sides and of course from the rear. I doubt that it was a really expensive light because the guy was running a front light that had a bluish LED and those types of lamps tend not to cost too much.

Right now I use the new Hotshot 150 on the seat post. I've walked behind my bike at night and I've found it to be insanely bright, even if I walk way beyond the range of a normal road width. Then again I cover all my bases and run a second lamp that provides a wider beam coming off the rear of my helmet. I also have lamps on the seat stays but I don't always use those. I don't always see other cyclists using two quality rear lamps but when I do they are almost ALWAYS very visible ( unless of course they are using some crappy super small lights with very low output ).


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Are there green or purple bike lights for sale anywhere?

My Hotshot 50 is brighter than my Cherrybomb, from directly behind it. From less direct angles, the $10 Cherrybomb is brighter. My older Planet Bike lights have run there life cycle. My older Serfas Thunderbolt, is brighter in the day time, but has a short battery life, so it sits and collects dust. I also have some 3m reflexctive tape on my seat stays and fork.

It is time to buy some new lights.
Perhaps more colors of reflective tape.
Reflective Pressure Sensitive Adhesive Films | Scotchlite | PPE | 3M Worker Health & Safety | 3M United States

A short time ago I came inches from getting run over by a bus. I had to be on the road because of a creek. I hit a side trail on the other side, and a bus appeared where I just was, 1 second to spare. Things like this make the cost of lights seem irrelevant. Not the place to save money. Yes, the place to spend wisely.
I had the Cherrybomb on my underseat tool bag, and the Hotshot 50 on the back of my baseball cap.

So many things to think about. Day, night, more colors sounds good, purple, geen, obviously not a car. Cars always slow when they see a amber colored blinker in the distance. I have not seen a bike light in amber.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Are there green or purple bike lights for sale anywhere?
> 
> My Hotshot 50 is brighter than my Cherrybomb, from directly behind it. From less direct angles, the $10 Cherrybomb is brighter. My older Planet Bike lights have run there life cycle. My older Serfas Thunderbolt, is brighter in the day time, but has a short battery life, so it sits and collects dust. I also have some 3m reflexctive tape on my seat stays and fork.
> 
> ...


You comment on a number of things so I'll try to address a couple of them.

*AMBER LIGHTS*; Amber is a very useful light. DiNotte sells two types of amber lights. Basically they are both designed or intended to be used on the front of a bike but anyone of those lamps would be awesome on the rear for added daytime visibility. I have a very powerful amber torch I mount under my seat that I use in certain daytime situations. That said I really don't use it that much since I only use it on roads with heavy / fast moving traffic.

*Multicolored lights*: For frame or wheel usage different colored lights do attract attention. I use wheel lights for night time road use. Nothing draws attention like multicolored lights spinning around in a circle. Of course if you use the reflective spoke straws, those can come close to doing the same thing but without needing batteries. Not sure but they might sell those in colors too.

*Reflective tape*: Real important to wear clothes with reflective piping or panels when on the road at night. Almost all the road jerseys or jackets I wear came with reflective bits but I've added both _Lightweights®_ reflective stickers as well some DOT #2 reflective tape on back of my jerseys/jackets. IMO nothing beats the reflective ability of a DOT-2 rating. I bought a roll of the stuff ( standard white and red ) and cut it to fit in certain spots where I think it would be most useful. This is the same stuff used on school buses and truck trailers. Super reflective stuff. If you're into colors then you might want to check out the Hexalate stickers

*Rear red lights*: The Niterider Cherry bomb is a decent light but honestly, rear lamps only rated at 1 watt are somewhat outdated now. Still, you would be surprised at the number of people I see riding with less. Oh, almost forgot; In keeping with your query on lights with different colors, I have a couple cheap Amazon ( Chinese ) rear lights on my seat-stays. These lights use the simple but effective COB type leds ( ~ 40 lumens ea. ). One of the modes incorporates an alternating flashing "red / white" light. While I don't use this mode much it is, to say the least, "Very Attention Getting". :yesnod: I don't use the seat stay lamps that much but only because with two rear lamps going ( helmet and seat post ) rated at 150 lumen each and coupled with multi-colored wheel lights...well, I would think I'm hard to miss when I ride the road at night.


----------



## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

If talking visibility and safety, I'd say it won't hurt to put or wear reflective bands on the bike or clothing. 
I drive at night all the time and the scariest things I ever see are a jogger or walker out in the dark with nothing to aid in seeing them. The dunces wear dark clothing and are all but invisible. I jump out of my seat when all the sudden as I'm leaving work, I barely see a body walking right off my car fender that I didn't see rolling up. 

Yet other times, I see a jogger or bicyclist or even a walker far away and it's not just the few stripes of reflective bands, it's the motion that really trigger the instant knowledge and caution as well. It really stands out. Shoes, ankles or wrist areas swinging in motion.... It stands out.

Many motorcyclists add reflective tape to their front and rear part of their helmets and purposefully get contrasting or bright colored helmets for safety reasons. Bright contrasting colors stand out in the daytime too. 
If you see a deep wine colored motorbike and the rider has a matching helmet, you may think, " Wow that looks and matches really nice". See that motorbike and a rider with day-glo green helmet , and now you are talking about someone who is serious about being seen or noticed. 

Added visibility at helmet level is very good tactic and a light at that level may more easily blind a driver.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

https://www.ridewithfiks.com/products/hexalate-reflective-sticker-pack
$14

https://reflectivetapedirect.com/collections/dot-reflective-tape
$72 - $103

¨United States Department of Transportation states that reflective tape can effectively reduce impacts into trailers by 29%.¨
Reflective Tape Regulations: What You Need To Know | Seton Blog
¨It's not just enough to randomly cover your commercial vehicle with retroreflective tape.¨

Seems that trucks are required too have red and white reflective tape.

XPL-3 AMBER Headlight with Built-In Battery ? DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store $199
XPL-3A uses THREE of the newest AMBER CREE LEDs for maximum performance in a Small package. This affords the rider world class daytime visibility, superb foul weather "be seen" capabilities and an excellent night light offering the equivalent of 800 lumnes.

this one might work better
NEW 2017 Quad Amber Headlight with built in battery ? DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store $160

¨ Powered by four "AA" batteries the FoxFire Commuter f¨
https://www.ledsafetylights.com/safety_light_details.asp?ProductID=85
comes in red or amber
$37

Reflective tape could be the place to start.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> ... Powered by four "AA" batteries the FoxFire Commuter f¨
> https://www.ledsafetylights.com/safety_light_details.asp?ProductID=85
> comes in red or amber
> $37...


Interesting rear lamp. I looked up a video review and it looks pretty bright. Down side is it is super big and fairly heavy ( uses 4 AA cells ) If you like low cost and a foot print similar to a rear car lamp this is your lamp.

Personally, I'm at the point where I have all the rear output I need for night time road rides. There are brighter lights than the ones I use but I don't see a reason to buy something unless....They start selling something about the same size as the ones I have, with; more run time, brighter / wider beam pattern and have a very good user interface. Not holding my breath waiting for that though.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Are there green or purple bike lights for sale anywhere?
> 
> ....So many things to think about. Day, night, more colors sounds good, purple, geen, obviously not a car. Cars always slow when they see a amber colored blinker in the distance. I have not seen a bike light in amber.


I didn't mention this before because there is already another thread on the lamp, the Xflare. This lamp offers a number of programmable colors/modes and is one of those lamps with both a wide and a high output. I've actually thought about buying one of these but truthfully it's almost too bright for my liking, even on low. I wouldn't mind seeing one in person just to play around with but I can't justify spending the bucks.

If I put one of these on back of my bike it's so bright it could be considered an annoyance once someone is within passing range. I wouldn't mind using one for daytime use or for places like dangerously fast expressways but truthfully I rarely ride in places like that.


----------



## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

Interesting question. For me I have two rear lights. One C&B Seen and also a Lupine. I use the Lupine day and night and at night cars do not drive past me, they over take me.. and that is fine by me.

In really bad light conditions like rain or fog, then I will add the C&B Seen light cos even at low it dazzles and you can't miss it.

What I find equally as important is having your light set to match your seat height, weight and normal riding equation.. my Lupine is set that car drivers and MPV drivers can see it at a distance that gives them about 3-5 secs of thinking time.. but because of the light style of that lamp, it also gives bus drivers and lorry drivers maybe a good 6-10secs of thinking time.. there is nothing fancy about the light colour though I suspect that being German, Lupine have done much to make sure it confirms to German law.

I don't really have any fancy reflective gear but I do have a MIRROR on my bike cos it is my responsibility to spot the idiots behind me.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

EFMax said:


> ... I use the Lupine day and night and at night cars do not drive past me, they over take me.. and that is fine by me...
> .


Is there a distinction here that I'm missing? Over take vs. drive past? :skep:
To me this is like comparing 6 to half a dozen and then saying that the one is not the same as the other. An odd comment it seems to me.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

EFMax said:


> I do have a MIRROR on my bike cos it is my responsibility to spot the idiots behind me.


I find my cateye mirror much less effective at night. I mean, I see the cars alright. At night I can not tell what they are doing, or judge distance. In the day I can see them swerve or come to close, know where they are. At night there is a second of hold your breath and cross your fingres, not sure exacty where the car is.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> , the Xflare.
> 
> truthfully I rarely ride in places like that.


I avoid riding at nite most of the time. If it gets dark at 6pm, well.
Not always possible.

It is time for me to buy some new tail lights. My old ones are well , old.
The DiNotte sounds the best, until I read the price. 
I need to think about this and buy smart and save my rear while I am at it.


----------



## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> Is there a distinction here that I'm missing? Over take vs. drive past? :skep:
> To me this is like comparing 6 to half a dozen and then saying that the one is not the same as the other. An odd comment it seems to me.


The difference for me is BIG.. when the average car drives past me, it drives too close.. but when a car over takes me, it gives my space respect and leaves a much bigger margin.. what I call wobble room - to that end that driver has not only seen me but understands that I need that extra space - but the idiots that drive past me, just could not give a toss and that bothers me.. it bothers me because all too often they are messing around on their mobile phones which accounts for why I have been "bumped" a few times, especially when there is slow moving traffic.


----------



## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

chrisx said:


> I find my cateye mirror much less effective at night. I mean, I see the cars alright. At night I can not tell what they are doing, or judge distance. In the day I can see them swerve or come to close, know where they are. At night there is a second of hold your breath and cross your fingres, not sure exacty where the car is.


As long as the cars have their lights on, then I tend to drive my bike as opposed to ride it, by this I mean I behave as if I was a car driver and on the road, especially in cities like London, I have my eyes on the mirror all the time, so I see when cars come into sight and then gauge their movements until they pass me.

When I did my advance driving tests, we had to give a running commentary on what the eight moving objects around the car were and this was a question that would be asked randomly.. by eight moving objects I mean the object in front of you, to the left and right of that, the object directly to your left or right and the objects behind you and to the left or right of them.. that training has never left me and I do the same on my bike cos some car drivers are just crazy.


----------



## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Cat-man... Overtaking is when a driver crosses the center line, while passing is when they use a secondary lane or passing lane. I think EFMax is inferring that vehicles no longer try to move around him while remaining in his lane.

I'm going to plead a case for light size mattering. The smaller a point of light is, the lower the total lumens must be to stay within the sensitivity range of the eye's receptors. Overloading even a small percentage of the receptors is similar to trying separate a radio station from heavy background noise. Known as dazzling, it's not the same as glare, in which you lose contrast due to an overwhelming amount of light across most of your receptors.

The NHTSA regulation of automotive lamps specifies the spread of light from a given lamp type (tail, brake, turn, marker, head), and breaks it into into zones with min/max lumens ratings to maxminze visibility while preventing dazzling and glare glare.

The small light sources traditional LED bike lamps employ forces us to choose between visibility (enough lumens) and safety (dazzling or blinding drivers). Just because your lamp forces drivers to overtake via an opposing lane does not mean you have improved your safety factor. If a driver misjudges the speed of an oncoming car and attempts to pass you late, are you safer when the resulting collision pushes a vehicle into you, than you are when struck from behind?

We need is quality light (even spread for consistent visibility, enough photons to alert the optical RADAR early enough to make decisions) over poor light (dazzling, and/or glare, following traffic cannot determine opposing traffic distance and speed, can't determine cyclist speed, can't make out hand signals, or enough lumens for timely visibility).

My Orfos Red Flare is an improvement. With 9 LED's mounted inline across about 4 inches, is much better at providing a high volume of photons without overpowering vision (compared to my Solas 40 and 150 lamps). The Orfos uses tiny, unfocused, 33lm max LED's. Setting it to low (100lm), the Orfos kicks out 11lm/LED, while my Solas 150 emits 100lm from a single LED at the same output. The Solas uses a lens to focus the light to the rear, while the Orfos does not. The result is a light source area of about two square inches for the Flare, and about 3/4 inch for the 150. I took the Flare a step further and covered it with two layers of diffusion film to spread the light source further. It's not as even as the light pipe on the Dodge Charger, but it's an incredible improvement over even the best traditional LED bike lamps. 

My next change is aimed at improving closing speed cues to following traffic. I currently run the Flare on my rack and the 150 on my helmet to provide separation, but inconsistent light position and brightness is distracting at best, and defeats determination of closing speed at worst. You can't provide a firmly positioned light of consistent brightness if you want to keep an eye on things moving about you. 

I'll be adding a lamp to each seat stays, close to the axle, to provide good separation between those two LED's and the one on the rack. I will again use non-small point source lights, either two COB lights, or two of the new Red Flare Pro's.

COB LED and flexible OLED can provide good solutions for non-dazzling light in smaller housings, we just need someone to implement something. There are a lot of COB lights on Amazon, but I've only seen single flat emitters for bikes. I'd like to see 3 or 5 emitter rows arranged in a half-circle. Flexible OLED, just make a half circle.

COB LED lamps for bikes are available in red, blue, green, purple, yellow and white. I'm not sure green, blue or purple are going to add much, I see vehicles with green lights, I keep moving along. I have been yearning for some yellow lights to mount on the forks for side visibility, so that may be a future addition.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Looks like there's a new upgraded version of the Orfos coming out called the Orfos Pro. Upgraded to 40 leds ( 400 lumen ). Much smaller footprint than the original but does the same thing as the original only brighter. I was looking at the promotional video and the UI looks very interesting. Runs off an external battery design similar to cell phones so you can buy any size battery you want and run it off of one of those. Available as pre-order right now ( for May shipping )


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Here is a video of a taillight that I have built a few of. Uses Cree XP-E red LED's and a TaskLED LFlex driver. Was trying to get a video from all angles






****


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Flamingtaco said:


> Cat-man... Overtaking is when a driver crosses the center line, while passing is when they use a secondary lane or passing lane. I think EFMax is inferring that vehicles no longer try to move around him while remaining in his lane...


From Merriam-Webster; Overtake ; a) to catch up with. b) to catch up with and pass.

From Google search; 1) catch up with and pass while traveling in the same direction.

As for lamp size; I won't argue that bigger size is better. Anything bigger is usually better. That doesn't mean a smaller lamp doesn't work almost as well ( given a certain output and beam pattern ). Likely 90% of all bicycle rear led lamps are about the same size. Those that provide a degree of spread of the beam pattern to the sides are better once traffic gets close. Even so, in certain situations it's possible to be using too much light. Depends on the roads and type of riding you usually do.

Rear lamps that output over 200 lumen, whether they be small/directional or large/wide beam, at distance they will all be seen and should remain to be seen up to 15 ft. before passing. Once in the 15ft range it usually only takes a vehicle less than a second to pass. This said the extra light emitted to the side ( with wider lamps ) isn't really that much more effective for traffic that is passing from behind ( assuming a fairly straight road ). The usefulness of the wider lamps is more or less advantageous to viewers who are viewing the user from the sides ( in my opinion ). If I rode in a heavy urban environment I'd definitely would want a lamp with a wider beam pattern ( if I weren't using wheel lights ) "Really curvy roads", yes, for that too.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

*https://www.orfos.us/collections/flarepro*

Has anyone seen these in person. On the web they sound too good to be true. And they have amber.
https://www.orfos.us/collections/flarepro
In my orignal post I mentioned being dazzled by an oncoming cyclist and his bright light and reflective bands. I had about 1,600 lumens going to reflect off his bands. Dazzled, ( hypnotized,) is the term I was searching for. I needed a couple of extra seconds to use my brain, they were not available.

¨If a driver misjudges the speed of an oncoming car and attempts to pass you late, are you safer when the resulting collision pushes a vehicle into you, than you are when struck from behind?¨

This is why I want an amber blinking light. Pavlov's Dogs. Dogs get hungry when they hear a bell. Drivers slow when they see a blinker. Natural reaction.

¨ Overloading even a small percentage of the receptors is similar to trying separate a radio station from heavy background noise. Known as dazzling, it's not the same as glare, in which you lose contrast due to an overwhelming amount of light across most of your receptors.¨

Of my old used up out of date lights, I found the 7 led light better than the 1 bright led light. I had a variety of Planet Bike lights. One of them had, was it 7 leds? If I set them on the ground and walked back a hundred yards or so, I liked the 7 light better than the turbo. It cost less, go figure. My cherrybomb has multiple leds, I like it better than my Hotshot 50.

Our man, seems to be saying not to overwhelm the eyes. Did he say a bunch of light, spread out, is safer than 1 really bright light?

Let us study this statement for a while.



Flamingtaco said:


> Cat-man... Overtaking is when a driver crosses the center line, while passing is when they use a secondary lane or passing lane. I think EFMax is inferring that vehicles no longer try to move around him while remaining in his lane.
> 
> I'm going to plead a case for light size mattering. The smaller a point of light is, the lower the total lumens must be to stay within the sensitivity range of the eye's receptors. Overloading even a small percentage of the receptors is similar to trying separate a radio station from heavy background noise. Known as dazzling, it's not the same as glare, in which you lose contrast due to an overwhelming amount of light across most of your receptors.
> 
> ...


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Does the the flare pro, say anything about runtimes? It does not take a 1 pound battery to run all those leds, does it?

Do we supply our own battery for the flare pro?


----------



## 4004 (Mar 26, 2017)

chrisx said:


> Does the the flare pro, say anything about runtimes? It does not take a 1 pound battery to run all those leds, does it?
> 
> Do we supply our own battery for the flare pro?


for such an interesting light and may shipping they supply too little info. judging by this pic






there is a swarm of LEDs, no optics, a very simple housing and power via USB (?!). UPD: yep, the website says "Powered by USB battery packs so you are in control of your battery life". So much for low weight
I'd expect this to dazzle traffic


----------



## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Addressing some of the Thursday comments/questions...

The flare pro has an integrated cord with a USB Type A connector, so you will can connect it to any typical USB power source, like Li-Ion phone chargers, or the 4x18650 cases from China. It does *NOT* come with a battery. I prefer an integrated battery, but this method permits use of any size battery pack, and the ability to carry a backup battery. Now for durable, waterproof USB packs and extension cords...

Yes, the Orfos lights are what they claim. They left the shutter open a bit to make the color stand out in the images on their site, but I can look towards the ground to the side while riding and know if my red flare is on when it's set on low, mounted on the rear of my pannier rack. Worth the price.

Run time of mine (first gen) is about 1.5hr on high (300lm), no flash. I typically have to recharge after my second commute, which is 40-60min on high (daytime) and 2-2.5hr on low (night). It has a single 18650 LiFePO4 battery that is rated for 2000 cycles.

Efficiency is a function of the generation and quality of the LED and the driver circuit, and how hard you drive the LED. Number of LED's doesn't significantly impact runtime, but different size LED's can obviously have differing chemistries and designs.

I emailed Orfos about adding amber when I first got the flare, I'm excited to see this addition. I have a Gloworm XS on the bar and X1 or X2 on the helmet, but those lights rotate, and a driver approaching from a side street could miss me. Think fast approaching vehicle, driver quickly checking traffic while still a hundred feet out, hitting the intersection just seconds later with intent to blow through). Hard pedaling or avoiding debris can swing both lights away from someone approaching from the side for that split second they look my direction.

ChrisX - I disagree that drivers (automatically) slow when they see a blinking light. Blinking lights are not a regular signal for most drivers. Instead of immediately lifting off the gas, many drivers take a few seconds to recognize what the light means (cyclist or runner) that it may pertain to them (on the road), and that they must take action (in their lane). This same issue occurs at grade crossings... signal recognized too late to stop. Pedestrians struck in crossings... more failure to recognize signals that are rarely encountered. Intersections with blinking red/orange lights are solid collision generators.

We multitask _just to drive _(speed, direction, proximity to moving and unmoving objects), and our brain largely ignores information we have not trained ourselves to monitor. Remember your first month of driving? How hard was it to maintain a steady speed? Stay within the lane? Take a corner without going wide or short? Notice speed limit signs (or white signs)? We pay more attention to octagons, triangles, diamonds, and red and yellow, because we've learned they are very important to our safety and we see them almost daily.

It's better to give a driver a solid light so it's easier to track you, but two solid lights separated by about a foot (to be individually recognized at 1/8th mile) can subconsciously alert a driver because we perform speed differential calculations any time there is a vehicle in front of us, which is almost always. If a blinking light is still desired, it should not distract from solid lights. Low/Hi power patterns are better than off/on, and fast patterns are annoying (poor temper is another distraction).

The size of the light source affects *intensity*, and in the case of reflectors, *accuracy*. A 1mm wide, 5mw laser beam has an intensity thousands of times greater than a 10W LED (with the typical apparent source size of 1" due to lens). Though the LASER has a output that's likely in the micro-lumens, it will dazzle you, night or day.

Flip this over... 800lm from an XM-L2 pushed out via a 1" lens = 800lm/in. That's a bright spot of light, even from 45º. A 5" lens = 128lm/in. A 1ft lens = 36.02lm/in. Though the same 800lm is being emitted, the intensity of the light source is closer to the intensity of ambient light.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Flamingtaco said:


> ...ChrisX - I disagree that drivers (automatically) slow when they see a blinking light. Blinking lights are not a regular signal for most drivers. Instead of immediately lifting off the gas, many drivers take a few seconds to recognize what the light means (cyclist or runner) that it may pertain to them (on the road), and that they must take action (in their lane). This same issue occurs at grade crossings... signal recognized too late to stop. Pedestrians struck in crossings... more failure to recognize signals that are rarely encountered. Intersections with blinking red/orange lights are solid collision generators...
> 
> ...It's better to give a driver a solid light so it's easier to track you, but two solid lights separated by about a foot (to be individually recognized at 1/8th mile) can subconsciously alert a driver because we perform speed differential calculations any time there is a vehicle in front of us, which is almost always. If a blinking light is still desired, it should not distract from solid lights. Low/Hi power patterns are better than off/on, and fast patterns are annoying (poor temper is another distraction)...


First, glad to learn that the Orfos is going to be offered in amber. I might buy one of those but oh how I wish I could buy it from a place like REI or Amazon.

Now about the stuff that I quoted above; I still don't understand why people keep thinking that a blinking light can't be tracked. For one, it's not that important...why? Because any light emitting source at distance at night will be almost impossible to track anyway. Because it's at distance, it doesn't really matter. What _does matte_r is that _"You see it"_, and you know it's there. That said, you aren't going to knowingly run into something that is emitting light. As far as tracking goes, that's only important once you get closer. Once closer things are generally easier to track anyway, even if they have little to no light source. Having any light source of course helps immensely.

A steady light source at distance will tend to blend into the environment if there are other steady light sources near by. On the other hand a bright blinking light with a flash pattern typical of a bike light is going to set itself apart from the surrounding traffic as typical car lights don't flash like a bike light. Since it's flashing it will more likely to wake you from, "auto pilot mode" and than be more easier to pick out among the other lights as well once you get closer. The point I'm making is that the blinking light screams, "Look, I'm different, wake up", while the steady light ( if the only rear light source ) just says, " No, I'm not a car light, can't you tell yet" ). The blinking lights do draw more attention as long as the driver is paying attention to what's in front of him/her.

Of course the brighter the light the more attention it will generally draw. If you use an Orfos or another wide illuminating lamp on steady and it's bright enough it will likely have the same effect since a light that is that bright and wide is quite unusual...at least for now.

Things that are different just draw attention. Case in point; three girls walk into a convenience store. All are good looking but one is wearing spiked heels and has green hair. Believe me you will not miss noticing that the one girl has green hair and spiked heels. You likely won't even notice what the other girls are wearing.

Hey, guess what...Last week I saw a newer school bus. Guess what they are now putting on school buses (?)....Flashing Red LED strobes. The standard top duel red alternating on/off lights are being replaced with alternating flashing RED LED strobes. How do like them apples.


----------



## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

I purchased my second Orfos via Amazon. Orfos is a two-person operation (married). They develop a design, then have it produced and transported to their home. IIRC, they either crowdfunded or pre-order funded the first version, and are currently in pre-order for the new design, due to ship out in May. After they get the bulk of orders out, they will probably stock their Amazon store again.

Tracking objects at a distance IS important. Best case scenario, you are correct, but you have to include the driver that's doing 55 in a 45, talking to his/her spouse, with opposing traffic or a setting sun reducing your visibility. From my own experience in coming up behind a cyclist while doing the speed limit and not being distracted, blinking lights leave a lot to be desired when trying to determine how far ahead they are, while checking for alternate lane availability, and determining when to come to speed behind them when I can't.

If steady light sources blend into the background well, then we are doing car tail lamps wrong. I don't see how a 300+ lumen tail lamp blends into a dark background. I don't have difficulty picking them out during the daytime.

They installed LED lamps on school buses here about four years ago. The LED's are extremely bright (much more visible than incans), are accompanied by two solid red tail lamps, and are only used when the bus is at or very near a complete stop. You can see the bus itself at a distance because of the bright yellow paint if there is any ambient light available. That's an entirely different application of flashing lights than a bike with a single blinky.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Flamingtaco said:


> Yes, the Orfos lights are what they claim.
> 
> ChrisX - I disagree that drivers (automatically) slow when they see a blinking light.
> 
> It's better to give a driver a solid light so it's easier to track you, but two solid lights separated by about a foot


Perhaps I failed to explain. When a person driving a car sees an amber colored car blinker, they take their foot of the gas. If they think it is a left blinker, they slow and prepare for a possible stop. So, if a bicycle had an amber blinker, would the car drivers natural reaction be to remove their foot from the gas pedal? A red blinking light requires thought. What is that? What should I do?

Two solid lights side by side, one foot apart, create a illusion of distance. (Are my seat stays one foot apart? 135mm is what half a foot?) A person with 20-20 eye sight could see the bicycle on a clear night. What % of people have good eye sight. Add in rain, wind shield wipers, cell phones, fat ladys with makeup brushes in their hands, etc.

Some people judge distance by the width of car tail lights. Stacked tail lights would work better. A light on the helmet, seat, seat stay near the hub, would be better to let a car judge the distance, and time of approach.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Flamingtaco said:


> ...Tracking objects at a distance IS important. Best case scenario, you are correct, *but you have to include the driver that's doing 55 in a 45, talking to his/her spouse, with opposing traffic or a setting sun reducing your visibility. From my own experience in coming up behind a cyclist while doing the speed limit and not being distracted, blinking lights leave a lot to be desired when trying to determine how far ahead they are, while checking for alternate lane availability, and determining when to come to speed behind them when I can't.
> *
> *If steady light sources blend into the background well, then we are doing car tail lamps wrong.* _*I don't see how a 300+ lumen tail lamp blends into a dark background. I don't have difficulty picking them out during the daytime..._


*About the first part I highlighted;*
We were talking about tracking, not about distracted or obscured driving. The two are really completely unrelated. Tracking has mostly to do with visual acuity and partly to do with how well _the brain_ can quickly identify what is being seen and then react according. Obviously some people either have better visual acuity, better/quicker reaction skills or both.

When people ( who are driving ) are highly distracted almost anything is possible. That's why people who are driving often run into other vehicles ( or pedestrians / cyclists ) even in broad day light when tracking of lights has no real application. Either they weren't paying attention, were heavily distracted, were driving too fast, too aggressively ( or any combination thereof ). Distracted driving tends to overwhelm the part of our brain's subconscious that operates our auto-pilot. Our brain's auto-pilots usually do a real good job of driving actually but when combined with conscious or unexpected interaction ( as what happens when on a phone or a serious conversation with someone else inside your vehicle ), your auto pilot can make big time mistakes.

*About the steady light source item:*
No, we're not doing car lamps wrong. At distance one car light looks like another. Most people aren't consciously looking at car rear lights anyway. The brain's auto-pilot is doing all of that for you. The conscious mind only takes over when alerted by the auto-pilot or if you wish to make a turn or a specific maneuver. Most of what we do when driving is all auto pilot. Now if your auto-pilot has better visual acuity to work with that means it's going to track things better. Personally I can spot and track a deer even before it hits the main area of my vehicles head lights. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I suppose that's why I can't understand people who say they can't track blinking lights well.

How many times have you been driving along at night and come up on a vehicle that has no rear lights but instead is using their emergency flashers? Since I drive for a living I've had this happen on more than one occasion. Never had any problems tracking such vehicles, even when they are driving really, really slow. On the other hand I've come up on vehicles driving super slow and using just normal rear lights. Those tend to be more problematic but so far I've never hit anyone doing that either. Actually, it does help to use the E-flashers if you are driving much slower than the posted speed limit and are having some kind of emergency. Of course on the other hand I totally hate it when ALL the vehicles on the road are using E-flashers ( either for heavy rain or snow ) because then you have no way to know if someone is hitting the brakes in front of you or not.

*No, your 300 lm rear lamp is not going to blend into a dark background. You are right about that. However that's not what I was saying. What I was saying that if your lamp is surrounded by other lamps of like or near intensity than basically it is the same as the proverbial saying, "Just another brick in the wall". That said, if the other bricks are say, 100 lumen ( steady ) and yours is 300 lm ( steady ) then yes, yours will stand out more and likely be more noticed. Conversely if the other bricks are 100 lumens ( steady ) and yours is 100 lumens ( flashing ) , yours will draw more attention because it is different.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Obviously some people either have better visual acuity, better/quicker reaction skills or both.
> 
> When people ( who are driving ) are highly distracted almost anything is possible.
> 
> ...


Cat man, do not be the most dangerous person on the road. The bad drivers are numerous. Many a person has a bad auto pilot and poor motor skills and poor reaction times. Personaly, I can not guess what a deer dancing in the road will do. I slow in a straight line, and try not to screech the brakes.

Not so important to understand them. (Non blinky trackers.) Very important to realize they exist.

How does this sound? 
3 red lights, 2 solid, 1 pulsed, helmet seat and axle level. The one on the helmet being extra bright and with a pulse. The seat and axle lights having lights with multiple leds, below the dazzaling level of brightness. And one amber light blinking just left of the solid red light on the seat.
Plus reflective tape on the seat stay and fork.


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Problem is that people are not taught properly how to drive.

"Autopilot" is just like hitting the brakes without thinking. It's a conditioned reaction.

The low reaction times is because of 2 causes:

Distractions!

Improper conditioning, better known as not be properly taught how to drive. Instead river is forced to think or reacts in a generalized form instead of a proper reaction to whatever comes up around them.

Things like improper braking, swerving, compensating for loss of traction and so on.

Combine the 2 and road is covered in 1500-4000lb battering rams.

I had to drill proper driving into my wife, typical distracted college girl when I met her. After moving back up to where I'm from, she learned real fast to listen and apply what i have been trying to teach her. First winter here she spun the car out in the middle of the road at low speed. Many did at the said intersection that morning and she tried to use that as an excuse. I then asked her how come my truck on crap tires had no problems.

Taught her proper braking and steering in slick conditions (plus to ignore everything but the road when it's wet/snowy). No more issues.

In my time riding over recent years I've found 2 things:

Any is better than nothing

Little cheap flashers are easily ignored.

Bright, focused beams cause drivers to look away from you putting everyone at risk.

At night it doesn't take much for the human eye to notice it when it's a light source. A little flasher or similar small/focused light is much less effective versus something that appears larger.

Matter of genetic self preservation, bigger it is, the more of a thread it can be. Little cheap red flasher can be nothing more than a pair of kids shoes.

When it comes to safety, the appearance of being bigger is better. Not brighter just bigger.

A tiny do of light may be visible at a long distance but that means you have all that time for the driver to become distracted again. 

Instead you want something that is much more noticeable especially at a distance that the driver can recognize, decide on safe course of action and proceed as needed.

So there is a zone that makes cheap Chinese/Walmart stuff better than nothing but barely.

Then makes something with a focused beam limited on it's actual effect.

This is why automotive tail lights are all designed to be larger. Not a lot of lumens because a lot isn't needed. They make the only visual reference larger.

Adding a blink (not rapid flash but a slow blink) combined with a large steady source presence is best at night.

During the day a good, bright flash is better because you need higher intensity to overcome ambient light to be noticed at a safe distance.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

I checked out some buses this evening. The older buses had the same set up our grandparents had. The newer the more interesting. In common they had solid lights way up high. They had blinking or pulsed lights going down. Most of the lights were red. Some had 2 white pulsed lights. Others had pulsed amber lights. One or two amber lights or 2 white. The latest model buses had steady lights, when moving. A slow pulse when braking. a fast pulse when stopped.

If a blinking light has a dark spot between blinks, and a pulsed light just goes up down bright dim, I may or may not be able to detect it standing on the corner. Above we seem to agree that pulsed is better.

Thanks to this thread, I also noticed that, none of the lights was overwhelming bright. The leds were numerous, not dazzling.

Solid red Roof

Blinking red

Blinking red
middle
Blinking amber or white

Blinking red bumper

On the front. Some have amber leds all over. A couple had green down low. All have white headlights. The newer the more numerous the colored lights seem to be.

I can not see spending more on bike lights than on the bike. The self contained amber Dinotte was $160. A piece of -mart is not good enough. No way to guess the quality of amazon $19.95 lights. What we do know: Plentyfull not dazzling lights are good. Highly focused, is bad.

Reflective tape:

I have some half inch wide white 3m tape. On the seat stays, it is wrapped around. Similar to the white wrapped around a red candy cane. From any direction it looks like a bunch of //////. Turn the, (//////), up to look like your seat stay. Wrapping the tape around takes a little practice before you remove the backing, and stick it on.





The buses are about 700 kilometers south of the bicycle video. (Antioquia)
Where distractions are more numerous than most places.
Next week, when I go home, I need to get some new lights.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

https://www.serfas.com/products/view/1056/referer:products|index|lights|tail-lights
This one says 10.5 hours of flashing amber $90

reflective tape
https://www.rei.com/product/808970/lightweights-reflective-red-tape

https://www.rei.com/product/808089/lightweights-reflective-dots-assorted-colors

I am buying some Velocity cliffhanger rims. For something like $30 more, they can be reflective rims. Any idea if their reflective rims are worth it? Bright or dull reflection.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Cat man, do not be the most dangerous person on the road....


 Duh...why would I do that? My bike looks like a carnival going down the road at night. As for my driving skills; I've been driving professionally my whole life and have a virtual spotless record. ( knock on wood ) The company I work for requires it's employees to train and pass driver safety training monthly. " Driving and road Safety" is pretty much seared into my brain.



chrisx said:


> ...The bad drivers are numerous. Many a person has a bad auto pilot and poor motor skills and poor reaction times.


So I've been told. Matter of fact just last Friday I was having a very nice conversation with one of my clients who not only is a cyclist but is also a medical Doctor. During our brief conversation he was telling me just how many people have very poor eye sight. I try not to let stuff like that scare me though because I drive the road every day. I know there are folk out there on the road that probably shouldn't be allowed to drive but not really a whole lot one can do with that knowledge except to hope like Hell one of those people don't run into you one day while on the bike. Still, with all respective threats in perspective, I totally agree with RAKC in that _distracted or poor driving skills_ are more or less the major threat when navigating on public road ways.



chrisx said:


> ...How does this sound?
> 3 red lights, 2 solid, 1 pulsed, helmet seat and axle level. The one on the helmet being extra bright and with a pulse. The seat and axle lights having lights with multiple leds, below the dazzaling level of brightness. And one amber light blinking just left of the solid red light on the seat.
> Plus reflective tape on the seat stay and fork.


OMG!...you're the guy that stole my bike!...**LOL**...( kidding of course  ) ...Yeah, I would guess you would be easily seen. You might actually be into overkill but better to have too much than too little. I think if you have two good / modern rear lamps on back of your bike...one seat-post, one on back of the helmet, you should be well seen by most people who have their attention focused on their driving.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> Adding a blink (not rapid flash but a slow blink) combined with a large steady source presence is best at night.
> 
> During the day a good, bright flash is better because you need higher intensity to overcome ambient light to be noticed at a safe distance.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Looks like RACK ind sells Bike lights. Including the MTBR Mtbr Best of 2016 Awards: Best night riding light - Mtbr.com
best of 2016 awards, best new light.

Think I will read his post again.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Note to light Manufacturers‎. I can think of two things I would like to have.
1. More colors, including amber.
2. A mount big enough for a fork or other non traditional spot.
Because:
When I put a bag on my handle bars it blocks the light, or reflects to much light back to me.

I recently bought a Light in Motion 800. It has a long silicon band that I can stretch around my fork if need be. It also turns 360. I was able to mount the 800 on a bar end, and turn it forward. Most lights do not turn that far.

I choose this light because of mounting options only.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Note to light Manufacturers‎. I can think of two things I would like to have.
> 1. More colors, including amber.
> 2. A mount big enough for a fork or other non traditional spot.
> Because:
> ...


Google search always a good place to start. This fork mount would work with a lot of different bike lights. Hopefully this would allow enough room for a good size bag on the handlebars. Of course if using something like this ( if it were me ) I'd likely be sure to use a lamp with a remote so I could still change modes without any problems.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Last night I was screwing around with the two cheap Amazon ( COB style ) lamps that I have on my chain stays. Since I don't use them much I almost forgot how bright they are and what kind of modes they had. I completely forgot that they have an "all white" mode. When I turned on the "all white" inside my house I was quite surprised at how well just one lit up my living area. Push-come-to-shove one of these would make a quite nice emergency front light. 

I'm amazed at how much the price is starting to drop for decent rear lamps. Last night on ebay I saw Cygolite Hotshot 150's being sold for just over $30!...which is likely about half of what I paid for mine just a year ago.


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

chrisx said:


> .....
> 2. A mount big enough for a fork or other non traditional spot.
> Because:
> When I put a bag on my handle bars it blocks the light, or reflects to much light back to me.
> ...


Better solution IMO is to make lights with GoPro compatible mounting. Then one has literally hundreds of different mounts available to attach the light anywhere on the bike or person. The light could sell with a mount that suits "typical" uses, but a user would not be limited to just that type.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Google search always a good place to start. This fork mount would work with a lot of different bike lights. Hopefully this would allow enough room for a good size bag on the handlebars. Of course if using something like this ( if it were me ) I'd likely be sure to use a lamp with a remote so I could still change modes without any problems.


I am away from home, and have no photos of my bicycle lights. Traveling by bicycle and riding at home are a lot different. Example; I made 2 separate trips down the Baja in january and march. On either of those trip the linked mount would not work. I would want to mount a light directly to the fork. Clearance is a problem without the light. Mounting a light to the fork works best with 2 lights, one on each side. With a single light the tire casts to much of a shadow. A light on each side of the fork, combined with a light on the head is not that bad. Multiple lights allows me to set them on medium or low and conserve the batteries. Even if the handle bar mounted light clears the bag, the reflected light from the bag is too much.

At home I gobble up batteries and don't have a bag on the bar. I use a Nite Rider 1,800, or a Cygo 800, and a Fenix uc40 on the helmet. On expeditions, I do not want to carry all that. External plugs and bags of wires. Who wants a basketball sized clump of light stuff on their trip? Bikepacking lights should be self contained.

The linked mount would be a better option at home. Not practical for bikepacking. I try not to ride at night when traveling. Not always possible. Also there are a few trails where lights on the fork would help see the hazards.

I doubt making mounts so they could be mounted to the fork would add to the cost of manufacture. Well, Light in motion got my $100 because I could mount it to the fork. The Ravemen light has a lens that redirects light away from eyes and down to the road. Fenix bike lights have a reflector that redirects down and away from the eyes. I had to choose a fork mountable light over a don't dazzle the drivers light. My fork mounted lights could dazzle the twilight drivers. Did someone say the wrong light is better than no light.

Not to mention copying technology from buses. The new way seems to be more non dazzling lights mounted high, middle, and low. Could this mean I need low output multiple led lights on the fork handlebar and helmet for the commute? Amber, green, purple, and lights to see with?


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> I am away from home, and have no photos of my bicycle lights. Traveling by bicycle and riding at home are a lot different. Example; I made 2 separate trips down the Baja in january and march. On either of those trip the linked mount would not work. I would want to mount a light directly to the fork. Clearance is a problem without the light. Mounting a light to the fork works best with 2 lights, one on each side. With a single light the tire casts to much of a shadow. A light on each side of the fork, combined with a light on the head is not that bad. Multiple lights allows me to set them on medium or low and conserve the batteries. Even if the handle bar mounted light clears the bag, the reflected light from the bag is too much.
> 
> At home I gobble up batteries and don't have a bag on the bar. I use a Nite Rider 1,800, or a Cygo 800, and a Fenix uc40 on the helmet. On expeditions, I do not want to carry all that. External plugs and bags of wires. Who wants a basketball sized clump of light stuff on their trip? Bikepacking lights should be self contained.
> 
> The linked mount would be a better option at home. Not practical for bikepacking. I try not to ride at night when traveling. Not always possible. Also there are a few trails where lights on the fork would help see the hazards...


Okay, so this is more about having something to see at night when bike touring... If you are going to mount lamps to the front fork stays then I would think it would be better to keep things small. I would think two mini torches ( using either single AA or single RCR123A's ) would work in a pinch. Aiming might be a problem though. You need a mount that allows for adjustment. Batteries should not be a problem to find while on the road.

Another idea might be to use a couple of the COB type mini lamps . I have two that offer a "white only mode" and I'll tell you, they are quite bright. Down side is the beam pattern is omnidirectional but if strapped to your front pack or fork stays none of the light should feedback into your eyes. Only problem with the mini lamps is that you need to charge via a USB charger.

Anyway...either of those two options and the regular lamp you use on the helmet and it should work. Just keep in mind the small lamps are just there to provide some close-in light. Your helmet lamp would be your main light source for seeing distance. Anyway, likely if you're touring by bike you won't ride too much at night.


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> ........Anyway, likely if you're touring by bike you won't ride too much at night.


How would one get back to camp from the bar????


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Vancbiker said:


> How would one get back to camp from the bar????


I don't go to bars.

By cob lights do you mean strip lights like these?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-COB-150LM-Silicone-Bicycle-Light_60367069506.html

Usb rechargeable is a good thing it reduces bulk, and makes one wire good to charge all your stuff.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do;13149842 Anyway said:


> Try not to ride at night, but sometimes you have too.
> 
> I think touring and in town go to the store tail lights could be about the same. Sorry, I got off the subject. I wanted to tell the guy that sells lights, A larger mount would enable more choices. Fork mounted lights would be handy, without extra cost.
> 
> I expect that most of what we are saying above applies to the front as well. *Dazzled drivers. *


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> I don't go to bars.
> 
> By cob lights do you mean strip lights like these?
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-COB-150LM-Silicone-Bicycle-Light_60367069506.html
> ...


Yep, pretty much like those only I was thinking of something more like the Serfas Thunderbolt ( white ) or one of these. The ones I have are basically red rear lights with an included white mode in the UI. I'd have included that link but the seller is out of stock on those.

I've been kind of busy this week but if I get a chance I'll throw mine on the front stays and try to take a picture.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

http://ecom1.planetbike.com/3061.HTML
Another little amber light.

Did we ever put a number on the amount of lumens you can have without dazzleing the cars?


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Can't really put a number as it depends on how the lumens are dealt with. If it's more focused optic/reflector the number is a lot lower.

In the US with all these high powered taillights coming out truly it's only a matter of time before DOT steps in. DOT standards on automotive taillights are set specifically to avoid that problem.

That why the big debate on these high powered lights, front or rear, with focused beams. Big problem is many cyclists carry the "screw everyone else" mentality. Not unlike motorists that drive through town with HID headlights aimed poorly or with their high beams on.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> Can't really put a number as it depends on how the lumens are dealt with. If it's more focused optic/reflector the number is a lot lower.
> 
> I noticed some buses with amber side lights that turn red when braking. Seems they use a strip of leds. Not focused, no reflector, a few mm apart. Not to bright to look at as you walk next to the bus. Red and amber on the back, mostly red. Amber and red on the side, more amber than red. Amber and or green or other colors on the front, plus white lights to see with. Many lights spread out seem to be the newest thing. Not brighter, more of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

for me I like simple reflective tape. even just the silver/white looking stuff from 3M. Its actually VERY reflective when a light source hits it. I have some red and orange as well, haven't installed it on a bike yet.

The multiple lights things is similar to the way I like things, the appearance of being larger. Some buses do get a bit insane on number of lights but still the same idea. No one light puts out much for lumens, instead they are spread out across multiple. Much of that has to do with the sheer size of a bus though.

Most important matter is being visible at all angles. Your standard headlight and rear light set up leaves the sides essentially "invisible" unless you have reflective areas on bike/clothing.

Front lights have made some real progress in lateral visibility, rear lights however are slowly catching up. 99 out of 100 rear bike lights I see at night I cant see the rear very well from the side. Front about 8 out of 10 or so. Leaves only the light being cast from each end to be noticed and any reflective bits. Your standard road cyclist (not commuter) calls this good enough at night. Many still argue against daytime lights.

Simply using a front and rear light that have very solid output laterally as well will do a lot. A bicycle is not big, adding more lights causes a list of annoying issues.

But as being discussed in another thread here, even with all the fancy safety gear in the world on you and your bike, still only takes on asshat that is annoyed or one who cares more about their next selfie or snapchat and you still get hurt.

I dread that my wife wants to move back to St Louis. I cant tell her that I hate to have to give up pavement riding when that happens (havent even told her Ill be selling my road bike when we move) because I want to see my kids grow up and not enough MUT/Rail Trails there to justify it. Not like here where I can ride 70 miles and only touch very rural road for very brief periods and tiny towns that there is nothing to worry about. And that connects to lanes/MUT all over the cities at the south end of it. Iowa side is also working to connect my area to the cities 45 miles south in a different manner. extra wide paved shoulders. Already done in some areas but each time they have to repave a road, they widen and pave the shoulders.

I have it better than "most". Which I think is why there is such a strong pavement cycling following around the area. Very little to worry about and can load up the miles without hardly touchy actual road beyond a few blocks of residential.

Wish everywhere was a cycling friendly and oriented as it has become here over the last 10 years.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

The argument over, "What is too bright for bike use"?, has been going on ever since bike lamps started to get over 1K lumen. I've seen these arguments here on MTBR and on other forums and really, I don't know why I keep reading this crap. I've never been blinded by anyone using a bright bike light while driving or riding on the road and I do see the occasional bright bike light on the road from time to time although it is still rare. 

In the mean time the lamps used on cars, trucks, buses, ERV's, etc. are getting brighter every year and nobody seems to care. I see school buses and Ambulances outfitted with full Red ( and/or ) Amber LED's and I'll tell you, the damn things are beyond just being bright...they are retina searing. Believe me when I tell you this; "If they ain't doing nothing about the bright car lights they ain't ever gonna do anything about bright bike lights". If you're gonna do something to fix any problem it has to be an issue that trumps anything else. I really doubt anyone would bother to do anything about bike lights seeing so few people ( if any ) really ride bikes at night. 

When I see a person riding a bike at night and they happen to have some decent lights I'm thrilled, even if they are brighter than what I would normally use. That said I don't think I've seen anyone yet using lamps brighter than mine except maybe once or twice. Really though I don't remember. I see people riding at night all the time since I drive at night for a living. 

Last thing I want is to have some government agency ( DOT or MVA ) become the "Bike light Police". Even if the local jurisdictions did pass regulations concerning bike lights, the laws concerning bikes as they are now are rarely ( if ever ) enforced. With people on motorcycles riding the highways at 100+ mph and people in cars driving like idiots, police have enough on their plate as is than to start haggling with someone on a bicycle over whether their light conforms to DOT or not. Not only do I not see this happening soon, I don't see it happening ...period.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Vizy™ Light | Tern Folding Bikes | United States

Someone made a light that shines a red circle on the ground. I wonder how well it works?


----------



## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There are some that do lines on the ground too. Those were found to be totally pointless because drivers really can't see them.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## 4004 (Mar 26, 2017)

This one is admittedly different from the useless laser ones. If it actually looks like the photo on the product page it's not bad, with 60lm


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Interesting but the thing is cars approach at night with headlights shining. I'm pretty sure most headlights on a motor vehicle will wash out the ground light when on approach. I have rear lights that create quite a plume of light on the ground behind the bike but I'm pretty sure none of that makes a difference to the people in cars. What they see is the light source itself. Now if that light source is "directly" visible 360° then perhaps the lamp could be something worth using. Sixty lumen is not a super amount of light but should appear very visible when viewed at night. ( looking at the source directly )


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Kind of a bit off-topic....

I rarely road ride but recently went out for a ride that included about 3 miles of high traffic, no shoulder, road and decided to use my Hot Shot. Might just be my imagination, but it sure seemed like more cars waited to pass and/or gave a bit more clearance when passing. I'll be using it all the time from now on.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

I parked in direct sun, with a hot shot 50 and my 2 new hotrod 50, and a cherry bomb. The hot shot is brighter if directly behind the bike. Just a few steps to the side and it is no good in direct sunlight. The hotrod strip lights are ok in the sun. The cherry bomb is also useless in the direct sun

I think I will get a couple more for the front. Perhaps I will find some other colors, besides red and white.



Cat-man-do said:


> Interesting I'm pretty sure most headlights on a motor vehicle will wash out the ground light )





Vancbiker said:


> Kind of a bit off-topic....
> 
> I rarely road ride but recently went out for a ride that included about 3 miles of high traffic, no shoulder, road and decided to use my Hot Shot. Might just be my imagination, but it sure seemed like more cars waited to pass and/or gave a bit more clearance when passing. I'll be using it all the time from now on.


Think that is the topic.
Used my to new hotrods the last few days, my imagination seems to go the same way.


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

chrisx said:


> .....The hot shot is brighter if directly behind the bike. Just a few steps to the side and it is no good in direct sunlight.


I did mount it so it is slightly angled toward the road. I stood back ~100 feet and ~8 feet to the side and looked at it and tweaked it a bit until it seemed to have best brightness at about that distance.



chrisx said:


> Think that is the topic.


Well, nothing new about a Hot Shot nor different about the color .


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Today's theory is:
multiple non directed solid lights, and an odd color blinking light. I spent way to much money on lights to replace my old out of style ones. I got some new ones, and some REI garage sale ones. I like the Hotrod 50 in the day, it has a lightning mode, (fast bright blink,) and seems to get me some space. At night I got some Bontrager 15 lights that run on AA batteries. I like that they do not burn my eyes the way the Hotrod , Hot shot does on high. 
I had to send off for a usb cover a couple of times.
Light in motion replies in 10 minutes, and sends it out the next morning.
Cygo replies in a couple of days and it takes 7 emails and 3 weeks to get a usb cover and a couple of spares in the mail.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Today's theory is:
> multiple non directed solid lights, and an odd color blinking light. I spent way to much money on lights to replace my old out of style ones. I got some new ones, and some REI garage sale ones. I like the Hotrod 50 in the day, it has a lightning mode, (fast bright blink,) and seems to get me some space. At night I got some Bontrager 15 lights that run on AA batteries. I like that they do not burn my eyes the way the Hotrod , Hot shot does on high.
> I had to send off for a usb cover a couple of times.
> Light in motion replies in 10 minutes, and sends it out the next morning.
> Cygo replies in a couple of days and it takes 7 emails and 3 weeks to get a usb cover and a couple of spares in the mail.


Sorry but I'm confused by your post. "Bontrager 15 lights", sorry I don't understand this reference.

You also said something about not liking that the Cygolite Hotrod 50 burns your eyes. Actually not a good idea to look directly into a high output LED lamp. On the box they actually warn people of the danger. The higher output is what helps gets you seen. Nothing wrong with using multiple lamps that use AA's but sooner or later it gets tiring checking or messing with all the batteries. I see nothing wrong with using rear lamps on steady but I still think it better to have at least one flashing to help set you apart from motorized traffic.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Sorry but I'm confused by your post. "Bontrager 15 lights", sorry I don't understand this reference.
> 
> You also said something about not liking that the Cygolite Hotrod 50 burns your eyes. Actually not a good idea to look directly into a high output LED lamp. On the box they actually warn people of the danger. The higher output is what helps gets you seen. Nothing wrong with using multiple lamps that use AA's but sooner or later it gets tiring checking or messing with all the batteries. I see nothing wrong with using rear lamps on steady but I still think it better to have at least one flashing to help set you apart from motorized traffic.


I got two Bontrager 15 lumen lights that use AA batteries. They last 40 or 60 hours on one set of batteries. Although the brightness of the Hotrod works in the day, it could be too much at night. Did we mention (dazzling lights), above. I am thinking more lights, not brighter lights. A blinking light of another color would be good. When they see red lights they think there is a car ahead. If I had a purple blinking light in the mix, they would think, what is that. Obviously not a car.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

*correction*

I did get a couple of Blackburn 15 tail lights. I have no Bontrager lights. I have a Bontrager Rythym front wheel.
https://www.indy100.com/article/12-of-the-very-best-newspaper-corrections--xJlA10Vtnx


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> I got two Bontrager 15 *lumen* lights that use AA batteries. They last 40 or 60 hours on one set of batteries. Although the brightness of the Hotrod works in the day, it could be too much at night. Did we mention (dazzling lights), above. I am thinking more lights, not brighter lights....


Sorry, seems I didn't know exactly what the Cygolite "Hotrod" was. I thought it was a smaller version of the Hotshot, my bad. After looking it up I found the "Hotrod" is another version rear light that is using a COB LED chip set. I own a couple off-brand COB type rear lights. While they work very well they are no where near as bright ( or as intense ) as the type of rear lights that use the higher power LED's. The Hotrod is only listed as 50 lm. This said I don't know how you can say these are "dazzling". I can stand five feet in back of my bike using my COB lamps and look right at them without any discomfort whatsoever. If I did this with my other rear lamps I'd be seeing spots for minutes.



chrisx said:


> ...A blinking light of another color would be good. When they see red lights they think there is a car ahead. If I had a purple blinking light in the mix, they would think, what is that. Obviously not a car...


This is a theory that not everyone will agree with. I agree with the idea that "Different" does tend to draw attention. No doubt different colors do actually help draw attention but if you are using a rear bike light that just flashes "red" differently from motorized vehicles, the people who see you "should know" that you are not a "typical" motor vehicle. Case in point; Years ago I was riding through a rural area at night with a very bright 200 lumen rear lamp going on fast flash. I was told by a guy I ran into inside a 7-11 that he thought I was a Police car on the side of the road. That works for me. If I was just using a nominal red rear light on steady I doubt that he would of said that.

Using a different color, yep I suppose that can work. I have two COB type led rear lamps I use on my bike's seat stays. If I choose I can set them to a "red-white" flash mode setting. Believe me, on that setting they draw more attention than I normally need. I don't use that setting for normal rides but if I was riding a very dangerous road I would consider it.

Anyway, if you think using a different color might help, you might be a candidate for one of these rear lamps. ( red, blue, white combo ) ( video link )


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Sorry, seems I didn't know exactly what the Cygolite "Hotrod" was. I thought it was a smaller version of the Hotshot, my bad. After looking it up I found the "Hotrod" is another version rear light that is using a COB LED chip set. I own a couple off-brand COB type rear lights. While they work very well they are no where near as bright ( or as intense ) as the type of rear lights that use the higher power LED's. The Hotrod is only listed as 50 lm. This said I don't know how you can say these are "dazzling". I can stand five feet in back of my bike using my COB lamps and look right at them without any discomfort whatsoever. If I did this with my other rear lamps I'd be seeing spots for minutes.
> 
> This is a theory that not everyone will agree with. I agree with the idea that "Different" does tend to draw attention. No doubt different colors do actually help draw attention but if you are using a rear bike light that just flashes "red" differently from motorized vehicles, the people who see you "should know" that you are not a "typical" motor vehicle. Case in point; Years ago I was riding through a rural area at night with a very bright 200 lumen rear lamp going on fast flash. I was told by a guy I ran into inside a 7-11 that he thought I was a Police car on the side of the road. That works for me. If I was just using a nominal red rear light on steady I doubt that he would of said that.
> 
> ...


I fear that red and blue is too simil;ar to a police light.
https://www.serfas.com/shop/uncategorized/tsl-police-1400-lumens-2/

last night I parked near a stop light to see if my lights were comparable to car tail lights. The Blackburn 15 are similar to a car tail light, perhaps the 20 would be about as bright as a car tail light. The hotrod, cob light is brighter than a car light on steady high, (1.5), hours. Not as bright on the group setting, (100), hours. It has good side visability. The hotshot 50 is brighter, only if you are directly behind it. From the side it is not so good. I plan to avoid the directed, reflected lights. I need good side https://www.serfas.com/shop/uncategorized/utla-8-orion-blast-tail-light-150-lumens/
This one looks good, but the price is to high. A flashing amber light mixed in with the red would certainly alert cars to beware.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> I fear that red and blue is too simil;ar to a police light.
> https://www.serfas.com/shop/uncategorized/tsl-police-1400-lumens-2/
> 
> last night I parked near a stop light to see if my lights were comparable to car tail lights. The Blackburn 15 are similar to a car tail light, perhaps the 20 would be about as bright as a car tail light. The hotrod, cob light is brighter than a car light on steady high, (1.5), hours. Not as bright on the group setting, (100), hours. It has good side visability. The hotshot 50 is brighter, only if you are directly behind it. From the side it is not so good. I plan to avoid the directed, reflected lights. I need good side https://www.serfas.com/shop/uncategorized/utla-8-orion-blast-tail-light-150-lumens/
> This one looks good, but the price is to high. A flashing amber light mixed in with the red would certainly alert cars to beware.


I agree, I don't think the red, blue, or red-blue-white would be something to use. Flashing alternating red-white works extremely well, especially for day use. Still, not something I would use unless conditions merited it but I've been seeing people use the front "white" flashers on the rear of their bikes recently and I have to say while unorthodox it does wonders for getting a cyclist seen during the day.

In keeping what you said about "wanting good side light", some of my thoughts on that. There are many good rear lamps that emit very good side light. Many of these are using the COB type LED's. Starting from the brightest and working down. *Orfos Flare Pro: 400 lumen peak*. This lamp uses an external battery but it is Super bright. Even if you run it at 100 lumen it would have to be very bright from the sides. *Cateye X3, 100 lumen.* The Cateye X series is designed to be seen well from the sides. Cateye has three versions of this light starting at 25 lm. X2 is 50lm and the X3 100 lumen. I saw a guy a guy using one of the Cateye's earlier this year. I was at his 10 O'clock and about 150 ft away viewing from the side. I could see his rear light at that angle real well. Looking at it directly from the rear was not as impressive but I don't know what model he had. A couple months ago I bought one of these off of Amazon hoping it would provide a bit more side light. For the money it does pretty well. It's likely only about 50-60 lumen on high but considering I paid maybe $15 plus shipping not too bad a deal. Turns out I probably should of bought this one ( very similar ) because it is higher rated. The 100 lumen rating might be over estimated though.

*All things considered, best bang-for-the-buck is likely the Cateye X3* if you want a bit more side illumination. It contains two actual rows of COB leds so it likely does produce the claimed 100 lumen. Considering the cost of the Orfos Pro the Cateye X3 looks like a decent compromise.

BTW, if I get a chance I'll try to take a photo of my bike at the 10 O'clock angle so you can see the side illumination from my cheap ( now $11 ) rear COB lamp.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Years ago I rode the Oregon coast in December. The Cat-eye light lasted more than three days in the rain. My other lights all failed by then.

Yesterday I bought a Planet Bike 7 led red light, $16,75. Not as bright as the Blackburn 15. It has the best side visibility, by far. In the future I plan to buy cob lights, like the Hotrod 50, or other brands. I plan to avoid the lights with reflectors. Such as the Hot Shot 50, because of the narrow beam.

My AA AAA lights are for trips in Mexico or Guatemala. They have different rules at the airport.

Still searching for amber or purple lights.



Cat-man-do said:


> I agree, I don't think the red, blue, or red-blue-white would be something to use. Flashing alternating red-white works extremely well, especially for day use. Still, not something I would use unless conditions merited it but I've been seeing people use the front "white" flashers on the rear of their bikes recently and I have to say while unorthodox it does wonders for getting a cyclist seen during the day.
> 
> In keeping what you said about "wanting good side light", some of my thoughts on that. There are many good rear lamps that emit very good side light. Many of these are using the COB type LED's. Starting from the brightest and working down. *Orfos Flare Pro: 400 lumen peak*. This lamp uses an external battery but it is Super bright. Even if you run it at 100 lumen it would have to be very bright from the sides. *Cateye X3, 100 lumen.* The Cateye X series is designed to be seen well from the sides. Cateye has three versions of this light starting at 25 lm. X2 is 50lm and the X3 100 lumen. I saw a guy a guy using one of the Cateye's earlier this year. I was at his 10 O'clock and about 150 ft away viewing from the side. I could see his rear light at that angle real well. Looking at it directly from the rear was not as impressive but I don't know what model he had. A couple months ago I bought one of these off of Amazon hoping it would provide a bit more side light. For the money it does pretty well. It's likely only about 50-60 lumen on high but considering I paid maybe $15 plus shipping not too bad a deal. Turns out I probably should of bought this one ( very similar ) because it is higher rated. The 100 lumen rating might be over estimated though.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...BTW, if I get a chance I'll try to take a photo of my bike at the 10 O'clock angle so you can see the side illumination from my cheap ( now $11 ) rear COB lamp.


I tried to take a picture using my smart phone. After setting up the bike for the photo I was surprised at how well the cheap COB light does when looking from the side...However, the camera could not give an accurate representation of the light that the eye actually sees. In the photo the light looks three times brighter than it actually is so I decided not to post it.


----------



## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Any kind of decent tail lights from Gearbest or Banggood or Ebay for under 20 bucks (or something like that) that you guys know?

The wider the viewing angle, the better.

Thanks.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*New Lezyne Zecto Drive "Max"*

Just the other day I saw this on another forum and thought re-posting it here would be a good idea._ Lezyne Zecto Drive Max._ Looks like a nice rear lamp worthy of day use. Day-flash #1 mode is listed as 250 lumen with a 9 hr. run time. I figure in order to get that kind of run time it must only flash or pulse every three seconds or so.

Right now I'm not seeing any videos or reviews on the "Max" versions of the Zecto so I figure it's fairly new. The "Pro" version is listed on Youtube but is both a front and rear in one lamp. Other than that the lamps look identical but the Max is using three red Cree LED's. I also noticed that it has translucent side panels so it should be quite viewable from the sides. If I didn't already own a Hotshot 150 I think I'd be on one of these real quick.



juhake said:


> Any kind of decent tail lights from Gearbest or Banggood or Ebay for under 20 bucks (or something like that) that you guys know?
> 
> The wider the viewing angle, the better.
> 
> Thanks.


It's no longer needed to buy a cheap rear lamp from China and then wait a month to get it. You can buy rear bike lamps on Amazon for less than $20 and have it within a few days. This one ( for example ) is also quite viewable from the sides.


----------



## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> It's no longer needed to buy a cheap rear lamp from China and then wait a month to get it. You can buy rear bike lamps on Amazon for less than $20 and have it within a few days. This one ( for example ) is also quite viewable from the sides.


I prefer buying from China (and waiting), because most of the products in amazon.com can't be shipped to Finland. And if the shipping is available, the shipping only is something like 20-30 bucks.

Nowadays the packages from China arrive to my door step in 2-3 weeks.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

juhake said:


> I prefer buying from China (and waiting), because most of the products in amazon.com can't be shipped to Finland. And if the shipping is available, the shipping only is something like 20-30 bucks.
> 
> Nowadays the packages from China arrive to my door step in 2-3 weeks.


Understood. Didn't realize you are from across the pond. How about something like this?


----------



## juhake (Oct 26, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> Understood. Didn't realize you are from across the pond. How about something like this?


Maybe as next one, if this one

Water Resistant USB Rechargeable LED Bike Tail Light -$1.99 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

really disappoints me. It was on Flash Sale for €1,69


----------



## youdisapointme (Mar 6, 2007)

I hate to bring back an old thread but i recently got these "thorfire" red/blue/white lights for my bike.. i have 2 one on each seat stay. in NY red/blue on the back of a bicycle is perfectly legal. the way cars behave now is life changing (literally) i'll see about uploading a video of my setup to the tube..


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

youdisapointme said:


> I hate to bring back an old thread but i recently got these "thorfire" red/blue/white lights for my bike.. i have 2 one on each seat stay. in NY red/blue on the back of a bicycle is perfectly legal. the way cars behave now is life changing (literally) i'll see about uploading a video of my setup to the tube..


thanks for the link.

https://www.amazon.com/Thorfire-Cyc...e-Intensity/dp/B01NCPSQV3?tag=viglink20255-20

https://www.thorfiredirect.com/Bike-Lights-c-79.html


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

You can hang lanterns on each side of your bicycle to illuminate everything around and yourself. 
Zanflare T1 review | BudgetLightForum.com
[FreemeGB] ZANFLARE T1 350lm Rechargeable 18650 Tent Lamp Group Buy -【 ACTIVE 】 | BudgetLightForum.com

Or use navigation lights like a plane aditionally to headlights for the tires. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_light
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_lights

One way to go is the Orfos FlarePro in white or red. 
www.orfos.us


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

I started wearing an orange vest. Just a cheap vest made from netting that weighs very little. In the day time a lose vest flapping in the wind seems to do more than lights.








Or sometimes an orange bandanna tied to a backpack. Being lose and flapping in the wind seems to work better than tight and stationary.

I am using reflective tape now, in multiple colors, (to hell with the paint,) it helps at night. Apparently a solid red light helps drivers judge distance. We also need to let them know we are not a car. So, flashing lights and more colors work.

Four 50 lumen lights is clearly better than one 200 lumen tail light.

When someone makes an amber tail light for a reasonable price, I will buy a handful of them. I never clicked on the $90 or hundred and something amber lights listed above. I did buy a few meters of amber reflective tape though, it works.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

youdisapointme said:


> I hate to bring back an old thread but i recently got these "thorfire" red/blue/white lights for my bike.. i have 2 one on each seat stay. in NY red/blue on the back of a bicycle is perfectly legal. the way cars behave now is life changing (literally) i'll see about uploading a video of my setup to the tube..


I still have those Red / white COB lights I bought last year mounted to my seat stays. The thing is I never use them. I guess I figured at some point if someone can't see the lamp I use on my seat post or the light on my helmet then they can't see. I suppose I could use them for day riding but it would have to be a really fast / busy road for me to use lights during the day. Nice to know they are there though just in case. The flashing alternate Red/white mode is absolutely mind blowingly conspicuous coming off the seat stays. Coupled with my flashing amber torch I have mounted under the seat the combo would do a great job of alerting people of my presence. Like I said before though, most times I don't use lights in the day


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> I started wearing an orange vest. Just a cheap vest made from netting that weighs very little. In the day time a lose vest flapping in the wind seems to do more than lights.
> 
> Or sometimes an orange bandanna tied to a backpack. Being lose and flapping in the wind seems to work better than tight and stationary.
> 
> ...


Not sure I can agree with that. At night perhaps the four 50's will do a very good job. Daytime is another thing. In the day the single 200 lumen ( run at full output on flash ) is gonna rule because it should be more visible at distance. Now if you can line all the 50's up together in line and get them to sync their flash modes than I might change my opinion.


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Not sure I can agree with that. At night perhaps the four 50's will do a very good job.
> Daytime is another thing. In the day the single 200 lumen ( run at full output on flash ) is gonna rule because it should be more visible at distance. Now if you can line all the 50's up together in line and get them to sync their flash modes than I might change my opinion.


The 200 lumen light will blind everyone during night and doesn't allow following traffic to estimate your distance. 
So during night, 4x 50lm will do a better job because the allow to estimate size and distance and dont glare much.
And during day the contrast between 200lm and daylight illuminated areas isn't that big, so no glare. Also distance can be estimated easy without taillights.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

angerdan said:


> The 200 lumen light will blind everyone during night and doesn't allow following traffic to estimate your distance.
> So during night, 4x 50lm will do a better job because the allow to estimate size and distance and dont glare much.
> And during day the contrast between 200lm and daylight illuminated areas isn't that big, so no glare. Also distance can be estimated easy without taillights.


I think we can agree that you don't need 200 lumen at night ( from one light ). Still a lamp that is flashing at 100-150 is so bright that it earns great respect when being used at night. ( * I like a fade in/out mode which is easier on the eyes ) I'm still amazed how many vehicles pass me by giving me more than a full lane, even when it means crossing the center lines. That said I like using at least two rear lights even though I generally use three. ( one lamp fade in/out, 150 lumen @ peak, helmet lamp ~80 lumen on normal flash and Cateye X3 clone ~ 40 lumen on steady. ) Having multiple lamps helps give more of a visible footprint.

Once again though I think most people are going to easily see someone using a bright single rear lamp whether if it's in steady or flash mode as long as it's bright enough. I still believe that even if using just a single flashing rear lamp that it will draw more attention if used on_ flash_ and is almost immediately Identified as a cyclist.


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

*Amber side lighting*

I just bought this light on amazon it's called brightside Bike light amber. I just received yesterday so I haven't had time to test it other than in the house. It seems like it is going to help quite a bit with side visibility and even should be seen to a degree from front or rear. I especially like one of the flash patterns that reminds me of a plow truck or construction truck light flashing. It is really eye catching and definitely relays the idea of Caution. I should have a chance to try it out this weekend and report how it went. It's self contained and easily mountable with micro USB charging. There are two flash patterns and also a high steady and 50% steady mode.

https://www.amazon.com/Brightside-Bike-Cyclists-Rechargeable-Waterproof/dp/B01ANW2YB2


----------



## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Go big or go home 

2x Cree Red XP-E2's pushed at 1 amp, output ~400 lumens

















****


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MaximusHQ said:


> I just bought this light on amazon it's called brightside Bike light amber. I just received yesterday so I haven't had time to test it other than in the house. It seems like it is going to help quite a bit with side visibility and even should be seen to a degree from front or rear. I especially like one of the flash patterns that reminds me of a plow truck or construction truck light flashing. It is really eye catching and definitely relays the idea of Caution. I should have a chance to try it out this weekend and report how it went. It's self contained and easily mountable with micro USB charging. There are two flash patterns and also a high steady and 50% steady mode.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Brightside-Bike-Cyclists-Rechargeable-Waterproof/dp/B01ANW2YB2


I seen those talked about on bikeforums. This little video might give others an idea of how bright they are. ( notice the light on the ground when the guy makes the turn ). Looks to be uber bright. ( Over-kill? ) Let us know what your take is on it when you try it out. I have a Planetbike version which uses only three amber mini LED's on each side. The Brightside though is likely 4x as bright. I mount mine on my frame bag. Sometimes I just forget it's there and forget to turn it on. Since I also use wheel lights no big issue for me being seen from the sides.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

scar said:


> Go big or go home
> 
> 2x Cree Red XP-E2's pushed at 1 amp, output ~400 lumens
> 
> ...


Scar, would love to see what kind of flash patterns these have. Still some people over on Bike Forums looking for a super bright rear lamp for day time use. As for myself I might be interested in an amber version ( for day time use ) if I see a flash pattern I like. Mounting it under the seat ( like in the photo ) is exactly what I have in mind. Even better if I could get something like that with a remote switch I could use to mount somewhere on the top tube. When it comes to lights this bright I would like the option to be able to easily turn it on/off on the fly at will.


----------



## MrGT (Aug 19, 2005)

Bike Closet has Serfas Thunderbolt for around $18. Killer price, I use 2 of these on my road bike day or night, super bright, I love them.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Create space using the "pool noodle" method:









Or try these laser lights:









General idea is to give others an idea of the width you need. Bikes are wider than people think, since they see the bike's center and the rider on top, but don't really consider the handlebar width and how the bike needs side-to-side room for balance.


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

So I had a chance last night to try out the brightside side lighting Amber light that I bought and it worked out pretty good. I went out for an hour road ride around the city and I found that I liked leaving them on solid at the 50% setting. I mounted the light in the front of my bike below the handlebars. I may experiment with the placement. 

As I rode, I paid close attention as I passed storefront reflections in the windows and could see this light really helped with my side lighting. I would call the light color more orange than amber and looks like turn signals on older style vehicles. I think this light is a keeper and hope it lasts. You can look at it from the side and it is very noticeable without being harsh to look at. In daylight I would use steady high or flash though.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

MaximusHQ said:


> I just bought this light on amazon
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Brightside-Bike-Cyclists-Rechargeable-Waterproof/dp/B01ANW2YB2


https://brightside.bike/brightside-bike-sidelight/

Slowly but surely.
Will it mount with lights pointing front to back as well?

We need to keep in mind that not all people drive high quality cars,




or drive with a clear mind,


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> https://brightside.bike/brightside-bike-sidelight/
> 
> Slowly but surely.
> Will it mount with lights pointing front to back as well?


You could do that but why would you? Plenty of better options for front and back lighting.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> why would you?


Because *amber* makes cars hit the brakes. Red or flashing red gets them to move to the left a little. Amber makes them think there is an obstruction in the road, they use the brakes and then try to figure out what is ahead.

The idea is to get cars and go around. 
A solid red light could be a car ahead, it takes drivers several seconds to figure out there is a bicycle ahead.
A flashing [B*]amber*[/B] light could be a trash truck parked in the road, it takes drivers several seconds to figure out there is a bicycle ahead.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> Because *amber* makes cars hit the brakes. Red or flashing red gets them to move to the left a little. Amber makes them think there is an obstruction in the road, they use the brakes and then try to figure out what is ahead.
> 
> The idea is to get cars and go around.
> A solid red light could be a car ahead, it takes drivers several seconds to figure out there is a bicycle ahead.
> A flashing [B*]amber*[/B] light could be a trash truck parked in the road, it takes drivers several seconds to figure out there is a bicycle ahead.


I was only asking because the Brightside projects light from two sides. Amber can work front or back so I won't disagree with that fact. Since you mentioned what cars do when on approach from the rear I'm going to assume you want this for a rear light. DiNotte of course has the Quad Amber. Very expensive but very bright and will work on a bike front or rear.

If you can't afford the Quad Amber than perhaps you might be interested in one of these...link....link.....The second one has a magnetic base and works off of 4 x AA cells. You would need to construct something for it to mount to. That shouldn't be too hard to do. Buy an under the seat mount for a Gopro and then buy something like a metal 
L-bracket and find a way to mount it to the Gopro under seat rails.

About what people think or do when they see colored lights; A steady red light at night can have an ambigous designation ( car with one tail light, motorcycle, bike, moped..etc ). An unusual flashing red or red pulse mode is usually identified as a cyclist almost immediately. Amber is basically going to work the same way only cyclists usually don't use amber lights. Personally I don't think that's so important. What is important is that the the light is bright enough to draw attention and have a flash pattern that would help draw attention and not get confused with being a car or road-side warning sign.

About a week ago I saw a guy riding on a rural two lane highway at night. While the guy did have a rear red light it was very dim and practically useless. What was saving this guys a** was that he also had a small white blinkie pointed to the rear. That was the light I saw first. Didn't see the red light until I was much closer. Point I'm making is that the more brighter or unusual the output the better. ( Now if the guy had a couple red blinkies going in the 60 lumen range I would of seen him a quarter mile away. That said if I was riding on that particular road I'd of had my red/white seat stays lights going as well as my Cygolite Hotshot 150. ( 60mph traffic )


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

You should be able to mount it front to back though I don't believe it wasn't designed for that. One thing to note is that I found the flashing mode mildly distracting when it was in my field of view so I keep it on steady.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Today at noon, I flagged down a bus. I had a Cygo Dash 460 in one hand, and a Cygo Hotrod 50 in the other, both on their brightest flash setting. 30 minutes later as I exited the bus, I asked the driver what he saw first? He said without hesitation, the white light. This was on a rural Olympic peninsula highway.

I am not buying another Hotshot directional light. The one I have, might be an 80, is collecting dust. They are only bright from a narrow field.

Also, to bright could affect the drivers vision.

Drivers need a steady light, red is ok to gauge distance. Drivers also need to be aware from the first second, they are not approaching another car traveling at significant speed.

mile per hour	foot per second	mile per hour	foot per second	mile per hour	foot per second	mile per hour	foot per second	mile per hour	foot per second
1	1.467	21	30.800	41	60.133	61	89.467	81	118.800
2	2.933	22	32.267	42	61.600	62	90.933	82	120.267
3	4.400	23	33.733	43	63.067	63	92.400	83	121.733
4	5.867	24	35.200	44	64.533	64	93.867	84	123.200
5	7.333	25	36.667	45	66.000	65	95.333	85	124.667
6	8.800	26	38.133	46	67.467	66	96.800	86	126.133
7	10.267	27	39.600	47	68.933	67	98.267	87	127.600
8	11.733	28	41.067	48	70.400	68	99.733	88	129.067
9	13.200	29	42.533	49	71.867	69	101.200	89	130.533
10	14.667	30	44.000	50	73.333	70	102.667	90	132.000
11	16.133	31	45.467	51	74.800	71	104.133	91	133.467
12	17.600	32	46.933	52	76.267	72	105.600	92	134.933
13	19.067	33	48.400	53	77.733	73	107.067	93	136.400
14	20.533	34	49.867	54	79.200	74	108.533	94	137.867
15	22.000	35	51.333	55	80.667	75	110.000	95	139.333
16	23.467	36	52.800	56	82.133	76	111.467	96	140.800
17	24.933	37	54.267	57	83.600	77	112.933	97	142.267
18	26.400	38	55.733	58	85.067	78	114.400	98	143.733
19	27.867	39	57.200	59	86.533	79	115.867	99	145.200
20	29.333	40	58.667	60	88.000	80	117.333	100	146.667

50 mph is 73 feet per second, so 3 seconds is 219 feet. That is a lot of wasted feet, or a lot of time to hit the brakes. Were you mistaken for a fast moving car, or did the driver hit his brakes before he tried to figure out what was ahead? 
https://korkortonline.se/en/theory/reaction-braking-stopping/








Flashing amber lights would mean a hazard is detected to the left on the line. Red lights mean the hazard detected point moves over to the right on the line. How far over before braking begins?

These days trash trucks and other road hazards have flashing amber lights. Bikes should also. Immediate recognition of a road hazard buys valuable life saving time.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

https://candlepowertech.com/xflare/
https://reviews.mtbr.com/candlepower-tech-xflare-light-review

Did we miss this one


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> https://candlepowertech.com/xflare/
> https://reviews.mtbr.com/candlepower-tech-xflare-light-review
> 
> Did we miss this one


Short answer, no. Xflare was talked about at least a year ago although if my memory serves me it might have been on Bikeforums.

Concerning your previous post where you said the following;



> Today at noon, I flagged down a bus. I had a Cygo Dash 460 in one hand, and a Cygo Hotrod 50 in the other, both on their brightest flash setting. 30 minutes later as I exited the bus, I asked the driver what he saw first? He said without hesitation, the white light. This was on a rural Olympic peninsula highway....I am not buying another Hotshot directional light. The one I have, might be an 80, is collecting dust. They are only bright from a narrow field.


You didn't mention what mode you used with the Cygo Dash 460. The 460 has a steady with flash mode and that might be brighter than the upper quad 4 mini-leds flash that is also an option on the 460. That said either would likely be more visible during the day. IMHOpinion a flashing white light is almost always going to be more noticeable than a flashing red light especially when used in full daylight unless the red light has considerably more luminous output. I own a small quad white led front flasher and although only about 60 lumen it is very noticeable during the day. Of course if I really feel I need more to be seen I usually just hit the remote control ( flash ) button on my Duo for a few seconds. 1500 lumen flashing is hard to miss unless of course someone has their head up their....

Anyway, no reason to trash the Hotshot. Not all rear lamps are that visible ( at distance ) in full daylight although almost any rear red light over 50 lumen is going to be very useful and very visible at night as long as it is aimed properly and fully charged. Rarely do I ever use a rear light during the day unless it is extremely overcast, raining or near dusk.

Summing up; there is a good reason front lights on cars are white....white is brighter and the light carries farther.


----------



## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

chrisx said:


> ...50 mph is 73 feet per second, so 3 seconds is 219 feet....


Perhaps a minor point, but it's the closing speed that's most relevant. If you're traveling 15 mph and the car is traveling at 45, the closing speed is 30 mph, or 44 ft/sec.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Cat-man-do said:


> Short answer, no. Xflare was talked about at least a year ago although if my memory serves me it might have been on Bikeforums.
> 
> Concerning your previous post where you said the following;
> 
> ...


The Hotshot 100 and 150, both of which I have owned and used extensively, are not in the same league as the NiteRider Sentry Aero 260 that I just posted a thread on. When I was commenting on and comparing other brands, the 2 Hostshots were what I was comparing it to. I don't care whether the lumens output on the NiteRider is as advertised. IMO only (obviously), if the NiteRider is a 10, the Hotshots are a 5. You and others may (and likely will) feel differently.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> *The Hotshot 100 and 150, both of which I have owned and used extensively, are not in the same league as the NiteRider Sentry Aero 260 that I just posted a thread on.* When I was commenting on and comparing other brands, the 2 Hostshots were what I was comparing it to. I don't care whether the lumens output on the NiteRider is as advertised. IMO only (obviously), if the NiteRider is a 10, the Hotshots are a 5. You and others may (and likely will) feel differently.


Wow! That is quite a claim...:skep: I may need to stroll down to my local REI to see if they have these in stock. My Hotshot 150 is so bright that when I walk behind my bike at night at 50 ft. it is almost blinding ( heck no, it is blinding... ) For me to consider something, "Not in the same league", it would have to be not only noticeably brighter but verifiable with a lux meter. That said I'm sure what you said is true when it comes to side visibility. Out the rear visibility ( when viewed from the rear at distance ) is another issue all together.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

The cognitive process takes too long
Cars need to recognize a hazard in the road immediately, not take 3 or more seconds to figure it out.



Lone Rager said:


> Perhaps a minor point, but it's the closing speed that's most relevant. If you're traveling 15 mph and the car is traveling at 45, the closing speed is 30 mph, or 44 ft/sec.


_If you design tail lights_, answer this question. *What makes a driver take the foot off the gas pedal and put that same foot on the brake pedal?
*
Lumen wars and lies might work for head lights. Saying, my lights are scientifically proven safer, would work better for tail lights.

Google says I am 5,033 miles from home, Elevation 3,259 m (10,692.26 ft). It is December 24th. I was walking down the street, looking for the coal store, so I could get a lump to put in my stocking. Well, if I have to get for myself a present, why not ask for safer bicycle tail lights.

The directional red light, flashing or steady, is the wrong direction for the industry to move in. Poor side visibility, 22 degrees of visibility from the rear is not good enough. What did he say, 260 Lumens now? Blinding a driver does not make me safer.

I had no intention of trashing Cygo. I did want to trash the narrow field of visibility reflector high lumen trick, used by many companys. I also said I like my Hotrod light from Cygo.

Drivers react immediately to something strange in the road. The insistent flash of an amber light, similar to the trash truck warning lights, for example, or odd color flashing lights. If I had a light that flashed green, blue, white, with an uneven insistant pattern, drivers would immediately recognize a hazard in the road, and take action to protect themselves.

What the driver does for self preservation is much greater than the reaction towards caring about my safety as I ride through the night


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*Fenix BC05R bicycle taillight*

First taillight from Fenix - the BC05R: 
fenixlight.com/ProductMore.aspx?id=3290


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Cat-man-do said:


> Wow! That is quite a claim...:skep: I may need to stroll down to my local REI to see if they have these in stock. My Hotshot 150 is so bright that when I walk behind my bike at night at 50 ft. it is almost blinding ( heck no, it is blinding... ) For me to consider something, "Not in the same league", it would have to be not only noticeably brighter but verifiable with a lux meter. That said I'm sure what you said is true when it comes to side visibility. Out the rear visibility ( when viewed from the rear at distance ) is another issue all together.


I wasn't taking about lumens. I specifically said I was NOT talking about lumens. I was talking about overall safety, including side vision, ease of attachability, ease of use including single vs double button operation, fit and finish, and ability to carry one charger that is the same size for both the front and rear lights, among other things.

That said, and as I also said, the NiteRider Sentry Aero 260 is bright AF, regardless of what you or others may conclude from your bench testing. Blindingly bright. And beautiful at the same time. Anything more is overkill, and would risk inciting anyone following from behind (or perpendicular to me).

In terms of overall effectiveness in protecting me in the concrete jungle, I am reaching for the NiteRider every time. EVERY SINGLE TIME. You and others can reach for the Hotshot. It matters not to me.

There is nothing special about the Hotshot. It is completely uninspiring. May as well reach for a Planet Bike, or any other of the myriad of run of the mill tail lights readily available.

There nothing NOT special about the NiteRider Sentry Aero 260. In terms of daily, real world use, it is a very impressive product. Regardless of whether it reaches its as advertised claims of lumens output or run time.

Some day I may wake up with a revelation - yeah, the NiteRider products are not nearly as nice as I thought, and those dudes on MTBR who dive right into the objective lumens testing were right all along about how much they suck. That day has not yet arrived. To the contrary, I have no desire to reach for anything other than my NiteRider lighting for my daily commutes. As far as I am concerned, they nail it in beautifully terms of their intended purpose.


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> ......I am reaching for the NiteRider every time. EVERY SINGLE TIME. .......


Shill much?


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Vancbiker said:


> Shill much?


Shill?

"...an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others."

I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose by saying what I said. I don't really care what you or others purchase with your hard earned money. I have stated what I have stated in honesty, based on my real world experience. It's an interesting discussion, and it is fun to participate in it.


----------



## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> .....I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose by saying what I said. I don't really care what you or others purchase with your hard earned money. I have stated what I have stated in honesty, based on my real world experience. It's an interesting discussion, and it is fun to participate in it.


We understand that you really like the NR product. Just a bit over top IMHO.

There have been instances in the past where folks with ties to a manufacturer have posted without revealing the relationship. It's the reason for the sticky at the top of the index.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

chrisx said:


> ....Google says I am 5,033 miles from home, Elevation 3,259 m (10,692.26 ft). It is December 24th. I was walking down the street, looking for the coal store, so I could get a lump to put in my stocking. Well, if I have to get for myself a present, why not ask for safer bicycle tail lights.


:shocked:....5,033 miles.....that's one hell of a walk on Christmas eve. Not to mention you don't see coal stores in too many places nowadays. Next year maybe do it the easy way.

Anyway, hope my response made sense to you. I had to run your statement through my new, " Conversational / Non-Sequitur Decipher App" on my phone before I could respond. Heaven forbid if I should have interpreted what you said the wrong way and ended up insulting you.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Vancbiker said:


> We understand that you really like the NR product. Just a bit over top IMHO.
> 
> There have been instances in the past where folks with ties to a manufacturer have posted without revealing the relationship. It's the reason for the sticky at the top of the index.


I hope I have established that I am not a shill. I have nothing whatsoever to do with NiteRider, or any other biking related company. My day job has nothing to do with biking.

What I am is an extremely passionate biker of 25+ years, whose enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of me for all things biking-related. Apologies for that, but that should not detract from the legitimacy of my observations and opinions.

While my passion is on dirt, I do commute year round, which is the reason I use lights in the first place. After struggling with the issue for a while now, I just can't rationalize biking in the mountains at night in my area, especially with my daughter, given the wildlife (which includes grizzly and cougars). In addition to being risky, it wouldn't be enjoyable for me. So, my lighting-related observations are restricted to very simple urban road and pathway commuting in the dark.

What I am most interested in is whether you or others are aware of a safer tail light for commuting. If you are, I would appreciate knowing about it so I can assess it myself.

Like I said, I have owned and used on a daily basis well over a dozen tail lights. I have lots of real world experience (albeit, commuting only).

As I have said, I am not impressed with either the CygoLite Hotshot 100 or 150 (both of which I have owned and used extensively). Regardless of lumens output, run time, or anything else, in my view the NiteRider Sentry 260 is superior to both, for the reasons I have already stated. Not asking you to agree with me. However, I would love to hear of any other options you prefer, so I can give those a shot myself.

Here is a BikeRumour piece on the Sentry 260. I add this mostly for the pics, which indicate what appears to me to be its unique design feature of side visibility (which is very important for me given the busy multi-lane, high speed intersections I have to cross through daily).

https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/26/ni...-is-super-visible-lumina-dual-1800-prototype/


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

mtnbkrmike said:


> What I am most interested in is whether you or others are aware of a safer tail light for commuting. If you are, I would appreciate knowing about it so I can assess it myself.
> ]


Can we use this thread to tell the industry what we need to be safer on our bikes?



Cat-man-do said:


> : new, " Conversational / Non-Sequitur Decipher App" on my phone before I could respond. Heaven forbid if I should have interpreted what you said the wrong way and ended up insulting you.


 Price:	$7.95 + $18.55 Shipping & Import Fees
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/coal
You want to make 9,000% profit on a lump of coal?

I reread my post and could not detect an insult. I think the directional tail light was a scam so the industry could get money. look 100 no 150 lumens. People just buy the one with the highest number, apparently. Profit from them, not save their ass, is the retail way of doing things.

Company ABC said 80 Lumens, so company Cba said 100 Lumens, so ABC said 150. They did not advertise the 22 degree viewing angle, or the 338 degrees of no view. What if you hang your light from the back of a baseball cap? Does the light just point at the ground? Unless you are part of the scam, and profit from the deception, you should not feel insulted.
_
So let us get back on track._
What lights would make us safer on our bikes?
More colors not associated with cars?
The hotrod 50 is on the right track. More colors and a longer battery life would be a good improvement.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

chrisx said:


> The cognitive process takes too long
> 
> What the driver does for self preservation is much greater than the reaction towards caring about my safety as I ride through the night


Maybe this is what the cat man had to run your statement through my new, " Conversational / Non-Sequitur Decipher App" 
Well, just remember 50% of people have an IQ below 100.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

chrisx said:


> Maybe this is what the cat man had to run your statement through my new, " Conversational / Non-Sequitur Decipher App"
> Well, just remember 50% of people have an IQ below 100.


What should a tail light do to keep us safe from the people with an IQ of 70 or 80 ?


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

https://www.ledsupermall.com/meilan-x5-usb-smart-bike-tail-light.html
What do you guys think of this one?







https://www.ledsupermall.com/usb-bi...eless-remote-control-turn-signal-lantern.html


----------



## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I wasn't taking about lumens. I specifically said I was NOT talking about lumens. I was talking about overall safety, including side vision, ease of attachability, ease of use including single vs double button operation, fit and finish, and ability to carry one charger that is the same size for both the front and rear lights, among other things.
> 
> That said, and as I also said, the NiteRider Sentry Aero 260 is bright AF, regardless of what you or others may conclude from your bench testing. Blindingly bright. And beautiful at the same time. Anything more is overkill, and would risk inciting anyone following from behind (or perpendicular to me).
> 
> ...


I have the NiteRider Omega 300 tail light, and I feel pretty much the same way you do about your Sentry 260. I absolutely love the Omega 300, and in my opinion it is far better than any other taillight I have seen. Like the Sentry, the Omega is bright AF. It is possibly brighter than it needs to be at night, but it definitely gets driver's attention and respect. It is absolutely bright enough to be noticeable during the daytime. The build quality and useability are top-notch as well. The Omega 300 and Lumina 1200 front light are my go-to lights for every day road use.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Skooks said:


> The build quality are top-notch


I have found that niterider build quality is low notch.
or, maybe the quality control guy was on vacation when they made my cherry bomb and Mako. I had 2 of each, 1 of each had a problem. My pro 1800 race has room for improvement also, think grams per lumen hour, and fiddly.

Maybe it is just the way the Missouri _  night riders  _ burned Lawerance Kansas in 1863. They burned the wrong town. John Brown escaped a Virgina hangman's noose, moved to Osawatomie Kansas and burned Missouri slavers. 
Quantrill's Raiders, also know as Missouri night riders, failed to gather correct intelligence. The night riders burned Lawerance, killed men and boys by mistake. 
One ancestor of the Missouri night riders moved to San Diego and makes bike lights with the same level of intelligence.


----------



## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

chrisx said:


> I have found that niterider build quality is low notch.
> or, maybe the quality control guy was on vacation when they made my cherry bomb and Mako. I had 2 of each, 1 of each had a problem. My pro 1800 race has room for improvement also, think grams per lumen hour, and fiddly.
> 
> Maybe it is just the way the Missouri _  night riders  _ burned Lawerance Kansas in 1863. They burned the wrong town. John Brown escaped a Virgina hangman's noose, moved to Osawatomie Kansas and burned Missouri slavers.
> ...


I have had zero issues with my niterider lights.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

*amber light at a reasonable price?*

Looks like an amber light ata reasonable price, available this summer�









https://www.blackburndesign.com/en/luminate-360-light-set/p/7108304
�DETAILS
Being Seen From All Angles Has Never Been Easier

We understand being able to see in the dark is important, but we also believe that so is being visible to cars. A recent study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) showed 27% of bicycle accidents are side impacts and 30% of fatalities occur in intersections (between 2010-2017). With the Luminate 360 set, being seen from all angles while cycling has never been easier. The Grid Side Beacon was imagined to work in with head/tail lights to keep you more visible from a full 360 degrees. While the Grid Side Beacon can be used as a stand alone light, we believe it works best as part of our Luminate 360 Light Set. The Dayblazer 400 front light and the 65 rear, are spec'd with BLITZ mode to keep you bright enough to be seen, day or night.

SKU: 7108304�


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

^^....Looks like the amber lights are sold in a set. If you want them you have to pay $100 for the light set. 

The Planet Bike amber side light is still an affordable option. I like the BBurn ambers though. If they sell them separately that would be nice. 

My side lights are still the PBike amber just under my top tube, a cheap Chinese Cateye X3 clone on my seat tube and of course wheel lights.

The wheel lights are becoming sort of a pain as I'm getting tired of recharging them after ever third ride but damn...they are so cool. Still at some point I might stop using them and just rely on the spoke ( straw-like ) reflectors I have. Right now I just need me a good magnet to help me get the batteries out of the wheel lights. I'm still using the 1.5 volt ( regulated ) Li-ion AAA's I bought from last year. They work but don't last more than 3-3.5 hrs. The hardest part is once they are charged, trying to screw the top back on the lights seems to be the hardest part. ....I have 4 new side lights on the way. Same type as before but with an on/off button on the side. The biggest downside to these is the cheap plastic slotted screw and nut used to hold the light to the spokes. Damn nuts strip really easily if you tighten too much. Damn I wish those parts were aluminum!


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Has anyone here tried these multi-colored blinkies from Kaidomain?

http://kaidomain.com/S027874-FY-309...color-4-Mode-USB-Rechargeable-Bike-Tail-Light

Purchased a couple along with some rolls of red and fluorescent yellow-green reflective tape (for my kitty litter panniers ) but the order is still processing. Hoping to be able to mount them to the buckets' sides, not sure how right now because thumbnails on KD don't show the bare back or the way it attaches to the included strap. Neither is there any mention of mAh or run time, guess I'll find out...

Also have a lot of Amber automotive repair tape left over, gonna try applying some to a pair of those white LEZYNE clones.


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Feeble attempt at amber blinkie.*

https://www.amazon.com/PAGAO-Rechar...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=HGYQEWC43QG99HV9HWS2

















Only used two layers of automotive tail light repair tape so light is still kinda greenish. Applying additional layers would make it more amber but of course also reduce the brightness so I didn't go there. And side view's still white - eh, who cares.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I dabbled with making my own amber light using just a DIY amber lens using an old prescription bottle. Works to some extent but is nowhere near as nice as a lamp that is using dedicated amber LED's. I have a torch with a custom amber drop-in. Bought it from the guy on CPF that used to go by the name "Nailbender". This was several years ago when only Cree XP-E were available in amber. He sold me one that was over-driven and with a nice multi-flash UI that gave a number of flash options. This is still my choice for Daytime use although the Lezyne Zecto Max ( red tail light ) is a great second option and easier to mount.

...And speaking of Day time lights for bikes; I can't help but notice that lately I've seen more people using red rear lights during the day ( and white blinkies in front ) . Looks like it's a trend that has finally caught on. The ones I've seen people use are usually pretty bright and get the job done.


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> ^^....Looks like the amber lights are sold in a set. If you want them you have to pay $100 for the light set.


Set yes, but only $50: 
blackburndesign.com/en/side-lights/grid-side-beacon-light-set/p/7108801


Best amber light is the OrfosPro: 
orfos.us/collections/pro/products/orfos-pro-blemished?variant=21801415016531
orfos.us/collections/pro/products/orfos-pro-2019?variant=21801411543123


----------



## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)

That Blackburn side beacon looks like just the ticket to run in combination with a red rear light. I've been using an amber Orfos Pro since last year, together with a Hotshot 150. Definitely commands respect.

Downside to Orfos Pro is the mounting of the light and required separate battery. It took me a while to figure out the best way for me. The Blackburn Beacon, while nowhere near as bright, should do the trick for ease of mounting and sufficient brightness.


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

KingOfTheHill said:


> That Blackburn side beacon looks like just the ticket to run in combination with a red rear light. I've been using an amber Orfos Pro since last year, together with a Hotshot 150. Definitely commands respect.
> 
> Downside to Orfos Pro is the mounting of the light and required separate battery. It took me a while to figure out the best way for me. The Blackburn Beacon, while nowhere near as bright, should do the trick for ease of mounting and sufficient brightness.





angerdan said:


> Set yes, but only $50:
> blackburndesign.com/en/side-lights/grid-side-beacon-light-set/p/7108801
> 
> 
> ...


What are you using for a battery, a power bank? Lot of money for a no battery light.

Does he even sell amber, I only see white and red?


----------



## KingOfTheHill (Sep 19, 2007)

They sell amber - you have to select the color from the drop down menu.

I use a PNY 5200 battery pack inside a Timbuk2 saddle bag, the one with the long horizontal strap along the back, not the square. I attach the light to the strap.

I also at times attach the light to the left seatstay and use the battery from a Serfas TSL-T1000 mounted on the seat post. The battery has a USB output, as well as a built in red Thunderbolt light.


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

chrisx said:


> What are you using for a battery, a power bank? Lot of money for a no battery light.


Yes, a powerbank. Is the most flexible way, you can even choose which cells you use.
Soshine High Quality E3S 18650 Portable Best Power Bank+Charger 3.5A - Soshine
Soshine E3S-QC 18650x4 Portable Power Source Bank + Quick Charger 30W - Soshine

For the price you get an extremely bright and completely waterproof light, which has no limits in runtime.


----------



## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

This: CatEye Rapid X3 Rear LM TL-LD720-R | CatEye America

Red, but amazingly attention-getting, even in bright Arizona sunlight. Good brightness from the side, too.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Hambone70 said:


> This: CatEye Rapid X3 Rear LM TL-LD720-R | CatEye America
> 
> Red, but amazingly attention-getting, even in bright Arizona sunlight. Good brightness from the side, too.


The CatEye Rapid X3 is indeed an excellent choice for a rear light. The design though somewhat limits how you can mount it. Can't really aim it either but since the output is a very wide beam pattern I would guess being able to aim would not be a deal killer.



angerdan said:


> Yes, a powerbank. Is the most flexible way, you can even choose which cells you use.
> Soshine High Quality E3S 18650 Portable Best Power Bank+Charger 3.5A - Soshine
> Soshine E3S-QC 18650x4 Portable Power Source Bank + Quick Charger 30W - Soshine
> 
> For the price you get an extremely bright and completely waterproof light, which has no limits in runtime.


Those SoShine power banks look pretty nice. The product description though is somewhat deceiving. The ad reads that the maximum current output is 3.5A. ( for the E3S ). However if you read the full product description it mentions that there are two USB outputs. One is capable of 2.1A output and the other 1A. I'm assuming no one USB port is able to output the full 3.5A. I almost pulled the trigger on one of these before I saw the devil in the details.

Keep in mind 2.1A if fine for charging phones and most other USB electronics. However if you own a light or phone that can handle the higher amps more is always better.

@angerdan: Since you were recommending these for running something like the Orfos Pro you might consider that since it will be used outside that the SoShine products, which slide open to insert your own cells, might not be completely waterproof. _You also mentioned that the Orfos has no limit in run time_...:nono:...I beg to differ. Anything running off of batteries has a limited run time. Of course you can carry more cells if you use something like the SoShine power banks but this just extends the run time. If this is what you meant by saying "you have unlimited run time", I understand. Keep in mind the Orfos is not inexpensive. Once you buy the light, the battery bank and then extra batteries, you could just as well buy two or three Cygolite Hotshot Pro's and carry an extra light if you thought you might run out of battery power on the first. ( just saying...)

Personally for rear lamps I like something that is self contained ( light and battery ) but Hey, that's just me. BTW there are USB battery banks that can output 3A but I have yet to see one that allows the user to use their own 18650's.


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Multicolor Blinkie from Kaidomain*






Bought a couple of these multicolored blinkies from KD.

http://kaidomain.com/bike-lights-an...color-4-Mode-USB-Rechargeable-Bike-Tail-Light

As you might be able to discern from the video, one of them is already dead. Power button came deformed and continued to crumble. Too bad because they are nifty and unique.

Oh well.


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...And speaking of Day time lights for bikes; I can't help but notice that lately I've seen more people using red rear lights during the day ( and white blinkies in front ) . Looks like it's a trend that has finally caught on. The ones I've seen people use are usually pretty bright and get the job done.


Yes. I guess we were trendsetters. I began with an Amber xenon triangular light on the front (a yellow version of what they have on school bus roofs here but it ate AA's fast) over a decade ago, and was thrilled when the 1 W blinkies came out. I don't get the weird looks any more with a similar multiplicity of lights as what you use.


----------



## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> The design though somewhat limits how you can mount it. Can't really aim it either but since the output is a very wide beam pattern I would guess being able to aim would not be a deal killer.
> 
> @angerdan: Since you were recommending these for running something like the Orfos Pro you might consider that since it will be used outside that the SoShine products, which slide open to insert your own cells, might not be completely waterproof. _
> You also mentioned that the Orfos has no limit in run time_...:nono:...I beg to differ. Anything running off of batteries has a limited run time. Of course you can carry more cells if you use something like the SoShine power banks but this just extends the run time.


There are som many different ounting options from Cateye for the rear mount - also the ones which can be adjusted.
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/SP-11-Flex-Tight-Bracket
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/SP-12-Flex-Tight-Bracket-Rear
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/Saddle-Rail-Mount-RM-1
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/SR-2S-L-Fizik-Bracket
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/TL-LD100-110-120-Bracket
https://www.cateyeamerica.com/Rear-Rack-Bracket-NEW-50-80mm

With a big powerbank (>10Ah -> 40Wh), you have more energy than you can consume in a cycling day. If there are more than 24h without power socket, an additional Solar panel could be attached.

Weather waterproof than completely waterproof is neccesary for an powerbank, Usually it should be put into an fram bag, which are available splash/rain-proof.
https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/waterproof-bags/1088-fastfuel-drybag


----------



## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

*Kaidomain MULTI-COLOR 4-MODE USB TAIL LIGHT*

Hey, it looks like Kaidomain might have addressed the failure point on their Multi-color 4-mode tail lights.









http://kaidomain.com/S027874-FY-309...color-4-Mode-USB-Rechargeable-Bike-Tail-Light

Previous model had a black power button which immediately began to crumble on both units I'd purchased, and one of the two failed after just one use. Model now shown has a red button instead, so perhaps they've upgraded the silicone. Keeping my fingers crossed cause I ordered three more in this new style. If they arrive in good working condition will confirm here.

My contractor said his kids would love them and I can see why -they pulse in all different colors and you can change the modes too (but don't come with any instructions so are a bit difficult to figure out, to say the least.) Fact that the tail light come with a clip is very convenient, can be mounted to any bag that has a 3/4" wide loop. And they swivel so it's easy to access the USB port.

Hoping they ship soon!


----------



## chrisx (Mar 4, 2009)

Off road crowd seems to be using more and more amber every year.







r

video did not work for me.


----------



## Ponik78 (Oct 12, 2019)

Friends!
Do any of you use the Lezyne - Strip Drive Pro 300 Rear or Knog Cobber? Which one is worth buying?


----------

