# Phil Wood Hub failures



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

The second day of our "Tandem Mountain bike vacation" this week, the ratchet ring on our Phil Wood hub failed. The manufacture has been contacted and, since we are not the original purchasers, have received an estimate of up to $260 to have the hub repaired. 

I have always heard that Phil Wood hubs are among the strongest and most reliable hubs available. After this failure, I did some research and discovered a surprising and disconcerting number of similar stories (16 first hand reports in about 2 hours of searching), in short periods of time (from 2 days, to 6 months of use) with several reporting repeated failures AFTER being serviced by Phil Wood. The earliest experiences I found was reported in 2001 and the most recent, 2013, so it does not seem to be related to a "bad batch" as some have suggested.

This seems a good place to find people with first-hand experience. I'm curious to know if this is a quality issue with Phil Wood or simply a fact of life with tandem mountain biking. FWIW, we are a 340 lb team, 50+ years old, and not particularly strong.

I'm going to try to figure out how to post a poll, but just in case I can't work that out, here are the questions I have:

-How many here have had a similar experience (ratchet ring failure) with a Phil Wood hub?
- How many have had a similar experience with a Chris King hub?
- How many have had a similar experience with some other hub?

I'm holding my breath, knowing that some will feel compelled to defend Phil in his absence. I hope you understand, I'm not interested in hearing stories of thousands of flawless miles on Phil Wood hubs; I have heard those stories already and that is why I have Phil Wood hubs.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

What "other" please?


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## Bald_Ben (May 2, 2005)

The only type of Phil Wood failure I've seen was on a clyde's bike (it happened to the same hub twice). He ran it really loose for a few months without noticing or tightening it, and the pawls gouged up the ratchet ring, which had to be replaced at the factory. If that's the type of failure you experienced (again, the only kind I've seen during years of wrenching on bikes in shops), I'd say check the adjustment frequently and you'll be just fine. I still ride Phil Wood hubs with confidence.

That said, I haven't seen that particular failure mode on other manufacturer's hubs.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

I have seen the ratchet ring failure on a few Phil Wood hubs over the years. Have seen WI hubs fail both in the pawl mechanism and structurally, Have seen Hope tandem hubs fail in the bearing assembly, which fouls the pawls and causes lockdown, but that can be repaired, Have seen DT Swiss fail (but the DT failures were several years ago and MAY have been related to an assembly issue). Have not seen Hadley hub fail yet, but we've sold VERY few of them over the years compared to the other hubs listed here, so that's not necessarily a fair comparison. We have not had a Chris King failure, but I know one of the members here has had an issue, and it may be on a wheel that we built. I have not seen a Rohloff failure yet. We don't even try Shimano tandem hubs any more due to multiple failures early on.
IOW, there isn't a cassette-style hub out there that I know of that hasn't experienced some sort of failure. 
So the next best thing is - what is the mode of failure on the various hubs? On the DT hubs, it's very easy to field-service the ratchet mechanism if it blows out. The Chris King issue, AFAIK, wasn't a catastrophic failure structurally, as has been the case with some other hubs. It's feasible to take a CK apart in the field, but a PITA.
Short answer, and this is an OPINION, is that C King seems to have the best long-term record as far as holding up under tandem use, and DT and King seem to telegraph any issues before they become structural problems that cannot be remedied with a field swap. We're hopeful that DT will provide some durability as well, and will be spec'ing them on many tandem builds.
I suspect we may see more failures if the larger cassette rings become feasible on tandems, since that will increase the potential force on the hubs.
Let's face it - we're putting forces on these hubs that no designer ever envisioned. So the solution may come from E-bikes or similar, but I doubt it will be anything reasonably lightweight.
Fixie maybe?


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Yes Solomon, That sounds like the same failure type I had, and what I've been reading about. I will be sure to check for looseness if I decide to keep these. Once again, the problem repeated. I wonder why so many seem to have repeated problems when others go years with no issues.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks Alex, great overview! 

We became a fixie half-way through "Slim Shady" in Sedona. I highly suggest it for those who have found tandem mountain biking lacking in challenges


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Fixie tandem. Yeah, we've been there.

We have an ECdM and it came to us with White Industries hubs F/R. MI5/MI6. We had ratchet failure (cracked multiple places), we had shell failure (split the drive-side flange nearly off - wish I'd taken a picture of that), and we had pawl failure. The overriding failure method (according to me, who is not an engineer) is that under tandem torque loads the pawls would be pushed into the hub shell to the point it would elongate the slots the pawls fit in. At some point every 6 months we'd freewheel and then go to pedal - and at that point the slop in the pawl slots would give us only one or two of the pawls engaging the ring. We'd overload a pawl or two, bust one or two, and then the problems really started. Of three implosions, one left us stranded with no drive, one gave us a fixie, and one made the most awful noises as we babied it back to the truck.

We've also gone through a CK issue. I say "issue" and not "failure" since we were never stranded. We were able to ride back home the first time, and continue our rides the next two times we had the same issue. Dealing with CK was fine, and they eventually warrantied the hub after servicing it twice at no charge. And, again, we were never left stranded and we have had zero issue with the drive mech. We had issues with the driveside bearing, but CK would never tell us what the cause was, which I found unfortunate.

We run CK hubs and would recommend CK hubs. As Alex states above, failure is possible with any hub, but I'd rather have a noise and a long conversation with CK (and perhaps have the bike down as you send them the wheel for them to look at) than walk out from BFE. Especially since that means my stoker is walking right behind me.

We are a 360lb team, strong recreational riders at best.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Other for us was a Cannondale / Hugi hybrid. The Hugi drive mechanism was fine and strong, but the Cannondale hub body split a couple of inches.

Kept the Hugi parts for spares in our DT hubs we run on all the tandems.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

In regards to the DT Swiss hubs, They are by far the simplest to work on. Once the cassette side micro O ring is removed so the entire cassete pulls off the axle by hand, you are dealing with a hub that is tool less to service since the QR is all that holds it together.

On the Co Motion road tandem, miles from home at a rally. Could hear my lack of maintenance during the last few miles of a Friday ride. Took 10 minutes, removed the rear wheel, removed QR, slid off cassette assembly. Wiped down all drive components with a rag, lubed, reassembled and stuffed the bike back into the van for the next day. That was over 2 years ago. Guess I should lube it again. The irony of all this, was having a small audience of naysayers bummed because our weekend was over in their eyes. They were stunned that in 10 minutes the wheel was in the frame, one lap around the parking lot and ready to go fight again the next day. A few commented if it were their exotic wheel XXX (not CK) it had to go back for service.

The other cool thing with DT, is that, if the chain jams between the spokes and first ring, as long as that O ring that retains the cassette body has been removed, you loosen the QR, this releases the grip on the chain and you pull it out easily with minimal spoke damage, getting you home.

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

TandemNut said:


> (snip) Have seen DT Swiss fail (but the DT failures were several years ago a (snip)


Alex, how many years ago? I'm looking at a NOS DT hub from 2010.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

PMK said:


> (snip) if it were their exotic wheel XXX (not CK) it had to go back for service. (snip)
> PK


Oh course you're free to not name names Paul, but I am very interested who XXX is, as I am trying to decide if I should spend money to repair my Phil Wood hub or find another.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

It was the exotic road tandem wheels. All those wheels seem to have short lifes for some reason.

Dirt wheels, we are a DT house. I'm sure the Kings would be fine. We have no miles on them on a tandem. 

The simplicity of the DT plus the strength of the drive rings keeps me coming back to them.

If you are buying a NOS DT Swiss hub, before you ride it, take the few minutes and relube the drive setup. Older waxy grease is the most likely cause of the drive rings slipping. 

FWIW, we are not easy on equipment. My greater fears when climbing steeper grades is either snapping a chain or bending a cassette ring. I never worry about the hub engagement.

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks 
k


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## rbs (Sep 30, 2008)

My Phil Wood failure wasn't in the ratchet ring. The second time I serviced the hub I found that the rear hub axle would not move. According to their posted service instructions the axle should have been removable by hand or light pressure.

I took a lot more force than that (there was a hammer involved). Once removed I could see that there was a barb on the inside race of one of the bearings that had gouged the axle.

At that time the hub was 8 years old and there was no way of determining the cause of the barb, be it manufacturing defect or not. I contacted Phil Wood to see if I could purchase a replacement axle and a retainer small screw that I misplaced.

The service manager told me that would be fine and to contact sales. Initially sales refused to sell me the parts and asked me to send the hub back. I didn't want to do this as it was a built wheel and cross-border shipping of the wheel wouldn't be cheap. When I explained this they agreed to sell the parts, but told me that there would be no warranty coverage on the hub after that.

I asked them about that stance since the service procedure was documented on their site, and there were only a few additional steps required for full dis-assembly. They do note on their website that the pawls/ratchet aren't user serviceable but I wasn't touching these.

At this point they did what I consider to be completely unforgivable for a company; they ignored my emails. I sent 2 more requests for some reasoning behind the full denial of warranty. Realistically at this point, on a 8 year old hub they only thing that would have still been covered was the hub shell. Unfortunately, they just ignored my emails.

For that reason alone I would think very, very hard about purchasing a Phil Wood product in the future.

Rob


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

The DT issues were earlier than 2010, IIRC. Paul alluded to what may have been the issue - too much or too little or incorrect grease being used in the hubs. I'm more confident that the current DT lineup will hold up for us. The spoke flange spacing on the DTs is narrower than other 145mm hubs, but is also nearly dishless as well, so maybe that's actually a good thing. 
I9 also makes a pretty good hubs as well, but no steel driveshell. Middleburn also tells me they'll have a bomb-proof hub available soon as well, so maybe more options are becoming available. 
Or, now that we've shaken out what works and what doesn't, the new mega range cassettes will start killing rear hubs all over again...


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

Howdy!

I've gone through six hubs on my mountain tandem:
3 Hugi (2 Cannondale CODA and 1 DT Hugi, from 1998)
Star ratchet failures. That being said, my Union Hugi on the road tandem has performed flawlessly for over 20 years with NO service (but not THAT many miles).
1 Deore LX (Duh! It was the temp. spare that didn't survive the first steep climb. Twisted the hubshell/freehub body spline off.)
2 Phil Wood tandem FSC. First one: ratchet ring thread locking compound failed on Slickrock Trail, screwed into hubshell, splitting it in two. This was about ten years ago.
PW repaired it N/C. Then last year, the ratchet ring had damaged edges on the ramps. Upon further inspection, noticed the body in which the pawls sit was cracked and ready to fail. PW repaired the hub (without having to unbuild the wheel) for $200.

Repaired hub working fine, albeit with limited use so far.

I've always wanted a Chris King, but have never taken the plunge. Was always concerned about the aluminum engagement ring he used at the time. I understand one can opt for SS instead. This will probably be my next hub.

I'm using traditional mountain gearing with a 24T small chainring and 34T large cog combination. ~300 lb. combined weight couple.

I hope my experience helps!


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

... and you guys are light compared to us! Well, me anyway  We're riding a $100 replacement wheel right now. Rode singles last two rides because I don't trust it. Can't wait to get back on the tandem...

Thanks for the replies, keep them stories coming! I had just decided to go ahead with sending the Phil Woods in to be rebuilt, and now I have more food for thought...


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## jeepr84 (Sep 28, 2005)

We have blown our White Industries M16 hub twice. I replaced the drive shell, pawls and springs and that wheel is now relegated as our travel back up. That completely bums me out because I love White Industries' products and they are a fantastic company (people) to deal with. 

With that said, I built a wheel up with a Chris King ISO hub that I had been running on my AM single for years. We haven't had a single issue ( over one year) and our legs have given out on steeps without the sickening sound of a hub implosion. The quicker engagement is also noticible, particularly on hill starts. 

For what it's worth, we are a 340 lb. team on an Ellsworth Witness.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Did all those little parts come out of that big part, or did you kind of fake the photo?

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Everything I'm reading both here and on the Clyde page is pushing me toward Chris King. I'm only considering replacing the rear. Not sure what I have to know.... I need 36 holes. If I'm measuring right, i have 135mm between the dropouts, a 45 mm axle, and a 6 bolt disc. Looks like the tandem specific CKs start at 140, so I thinking I can't use those, ... am I right? So, if not a tandem specific, what do I need to know? Can I use any other axle types (rear).


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm surprised you have 135mm rear dropout spacing. Are you sure? I'm running 140 on my '97 Cannondale and I feel like I'm in the dark ages, since everything seems to be 145 and wider these days. You should be able to get a 140 to fit. If you think about it, you're only moving each dropout out 2.5mm, which isn't a lot. I'm sure you're using an aluminum frame, where cold setting (bending) is not recommended. Even so, people have done it. Perhaps contact your frame manufacturer to see what they say. Again, I'd be surprised if slipping in a 140 wouldn't work just fine. You may want to have your LBS take a look and put some dropout alignment tools on there to see how well they're aligned and how they look when at 140mm.

That being said, CK says they have custom axles available, so inquire with them.

Good luck!


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I'm probably just measuring incorrectly  Someone with an ECDM will chime in here soon I'm sure.


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## jeepr84 (Sep 28, 2005)

PMK said:


> Did all those little parts come out of that big part, or did you kind of fake the photo?
> 
> PK


All the parts ( pawls and springs) came the outside of the drive shell and bearings and bearing cages came from the inside of the shell. So, yes, all the little parts came from the big part. No artistic license taken here...promise.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ECDMs are 135mm mostly, 145mm if it's an ECDM 29'er that we sold; Teresa tells me others have used 135mm on the 29'er ECDM's. 
To make the King rear hub tandem-capable, King spec's the HD axel, preferably with Fun Bolts, and the stainless steel driveshell. Those are the only differences that I know of between the regular King hubs and the Tandem hub (except the 145mm version, which uses the old Discotech hub shell and the separate disc brake adaptor).


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

jeepr84 said:


> That completely bums me out because I love White Industries' products and they are a fantastic company (people) to deal with.


Concur. We even sent them cookies after they hooked us up with a front hub rebuild as we drove north through Petaluma for vacation.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks Alex, 
Good to know I can do something right (using a micrometer that is)


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

I've said this before on other hub related threads, but it's worth repeating because of the relevance here. We are a relatively light team (275lbs) and to a significant amount of climbing on our tandem(s). We have destroyed a White Industries hub and an Industry Nine hub. We have Chris King hubs on two MTB tandems and they have held up and have had no issues. It should be noted that we run a 22t granny gear with 11-36 cassette on 29" wheels. So that's a low gear creating a lot of torque.

It sucks pushing your tandem when your hub is spinning freely (in both directions). Been there done that... Now after several thousand miles, with lots of vertical, I am convinced that the Chris King rear hub is worth every penny!


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Ds, Your comment in a private post to me is the inspiration for my research into this. I'll wait and see what develops on the Clydes poll, but at this point, your opinion seems to be well supported. No one has reported a first-hand Chris King failure yet. That is true of no other brand. 

Unless that changes dramatically, Chris King is what I'm shopping for


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Whichever high end tandem hub you buy, be certain the freehub body is not aluminum. The cassette will notch pretty much all the materials but aluminum is the worst.

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

That is my intent, I'm curious though. Many people comment that their freehub is notched; while it certainly makes pulling the cassette off more difficult, I haven't read of any actual failure because of it. Fodder for another thread


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

When we first got our CK wheelset we were using the LX cassette (individual cogs). 3 months into the new wheels and it was already a fight (needing a persuader) to get the cassette off. Much longer and I might not have been able to get it off. And that's with the stainless drive shell that comes on the HD setup.

We've had good luck with XT cassettes, and have in fact worn one out due to chain wear.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ki5ka said:


> Ds, Your comment in a private post to me is the inspiration for my research into this. I'll wait and see what develops on the Clydes poll, but at this point, your opinion seems to be well supported. No one has reported a first-hand Chris King failure yet. That is true of no other brand.
> 
> Unless that changes dramatically, Chris King is what I'm shopping for


I have the tandem versions in stock


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

CK user here as well on a wheelset that Alex built. No issues with ours with well over 1200 hard off road miles in the past year. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Will you all of you please hop over to the clyde site and add your numbers to the expanded poll I posted there. I included many more brands and an option for both "I killed" and "won't die" so we can also look at the equipment that is holding up as well as failures. The more data we collect, the more accurate and conclusive the analysis will be. Can you tell I'm a science teacher


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Won't be accurate - non-random sampling, based simply on the attraction of those affected to the thread title, and no allowance for #'s sold vs #'s failed, which is one of the best indicators of all. My observations are based on those two things - how many sold vs how many failed, which is why I don't have a clearer position on Hadley. 
Just my opinion, of course, but actual failure rates are VERY hard to pin down, since manufacturers aren't required to report them. And again, mode of failure is almost as important as whether they fail or not; it's pretty easy to get a DT running again in the field if the ratchet ring fails. It's way more difficult to get a PW or WI running again when the hubshell itself splits. 
Seriously - fixie! Or Rohloff...


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Alex, you are absolutely right. A poll of bike shop owners experience would be very informative. The number sold vs failed is crucial to painting an accurate picture. 

Do you think there is a way to present such a poll to shop owners in a manner that would be appealing and encourage a response? How about a venue? 

As a rider and builder of my own wheels, this is information that I would find golden.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Well Bill Nye...one factor not placed in the pole is the distance walked to get home or back to the trailhead / car. The further you walk, the less important cost will be in the stokers eyes, and the more pain on the captains eye drums.

Alex has been a great teacher in sharing his experience.

As for the Hadleys, weren't these the hubs Santana used and have been known to fail. That could be wrong so take it as just possible information.

Honestly, if there is a trend, it would lean towards either King tandem or DT tandem for reliability, a lot of road teams use WI and Alex probably knows more the % for off road.

Bottom line though...walking out is not fun at all.

If Alex would like, I can demo a DT drive rebuild at AORTA (can bring the extra road hub which is the same), if he has a Chris King hub we could likely do that, and even a WI if needed. Just a thought since this seems to be a common topic annually. We could even Video for You Tube...

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks for the Bill Nye reference 

As Alex said, respondents are self-selecting, and it seems a reasonable assumption that those with more unpleasant experience will be more likely to respond. Though that will skew the numbers, that bias does not necessarily make data less telling since I am more interested in failures that resulted in significant inconvenience and would like to see those responses weighted anyway. 

I don't want to get ahead of myself with a conclusion just yet, but I think that your hypothesis will be support. 

Anyway, the most useful thing is a large response. Even with inevitable biases in the data, the more responses the poll collects, the more clearly patterns will stand out. The poll is still getting about 1 response every 2 hours. It appears that the post doesn't get moved up with each poll response, only if someone posts a response. If this information interests you, you can help keep it visible by posting a response to "bump" it up the list. I'm feeling self-conscious doing it myself.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

TandemNut said:


> (snip) - ...spec's the HD axel, preferably with Fun Bolts, and the stainless steel driveshell. Those are the only differences that I know of between the regular King hubs and the Tandem hub (snip)


Missed that bit the first time around Alex, thanks. I was having a tough time working out the difference.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Another factor that must be considered is whether the hub was being used on a tandem mtb or not. I believe tandems represent the hardest use any bicycle hub will see, at least until electric assist becomes more common (Heaven help us all!). 
And therein lies the problem: the sampling will be very small, since off-road tandems are pretty rare.

As for shops providing input to a survey of sorts, that might be possible, but the input would most likely need to be anonymous for many to participate. 

Personally, I am reluctant to speak badly of a component publicly, as our use is probably beyond the intended parameters of most rear hubs. I prefer instead to try to work with the manufacturers to address the failure instead of hitting them up with bad press because a product failed in an extreme environment like off-road use. Some of them work with us, others tell me they don't know what else can be done, or it isn't worth the very small market potential to make improvements, when the hub works 99.5% of the time in other applications.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

PMK said:


> If Alex would like, I can demo a DT drive rebuild at AORTA (can bring the extra road hub which is the same), if he has a Chris King hub we could likely do that, and even a WI if needed. Just a thought since this seems to be a common topic annually. We could even Video for You Tube...
> 
> PK


Paul, I think that's a GREAT idea! Let's plan on that. DT, CKing definitely, and maybe Hope and WI as well.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Tandems undoubtedly put extreme stress on drive-trains unlike the majority of riders, but I wonder if we have the monopoly on that. A quick perusal of the clyde site reveals riders over 400 lbs. While weight is not the sole criteria for stress on a hub, I think that it is likely that some clyde riders (like William Johnson here)








or Kelly McGarry here






) 
GoPro: Backflip Over 72ft Canyon - Kelly McGarry Red Bull Rampage 2013 - YouTube
are probably in our ballpark when it comes to demanding use. I posted over there, hoping that readers here who are interested would follow over to the clyde page and participate in the poll and therefore, increase (significantly) our sample size. Seems like it worked!

Although the poll here is very small, the results are similar to those on the clyde site, but with larger sample. So far I've had 8 responses here, 29 over there. Incidentally, the poll just collected the first "killed a king" response :/

I kinda figured that shop owners might be reticent to share freely Alex, and it seems like a really good idea to maintain a positive working relationship when we have so little to offer them, as a consumer base. I still think it would be very interesting pool of opinions. While the polls here are anonymous, there isn't a mechanism (as far as I know) to allow one respondent to give multiple responses to a single option.

It's been an interesting little exercise. I've settled on Chris Kings for my replacement. I think I might have the PW repaired as a backup, but this sure has been an eyeopener; I have had PW on a pedestal for many many years...


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

another perspective on McGarry's ride
Huge MTB backflip over a 72 ft canyon gap - YouTube


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

He's 7' 4" tall btw. That's why his bike looks so small


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Oh wow...
Quieting a rear hub and reducing rolling resistance by removing a pawl in the free hub possibility - YouTube


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## jeepr84 (Sep 28, 2005)

ki5ka said:


> Oh wow...
> Quieting a rear hub and reducing rolling resistance by removing a pawl in the free hub possibility - YouTube


Perhaps, if you remove all of those pesky pawls you will have zero drag, zero noise and a hub that will spin infinitely! : )


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

yeah, one poster suggested that. Funny thing is, I'm not certain he wasn't serious!


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Currently have a Ventana El Testigo, running DT Swiss hubs, but have ran Hadley and Shimano on other tandems. We are a 300lb strong team, we have never had any hub failures, we have had cassette failures though. BTW, the hub spacing on the ET is 135mm.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Don't that beat all! Just did my spoke calculations for the Chris King hub and came up with exactly the same numbers as for the Phil.. Convenient, since I already bought the spokes! Cool beans... Hub is due tomorrow....


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## rbs (Sep 30, 2008)

rbs said:


> My Phil Wood failure wasn't in the ratchet ring. The second time I serviced the hub I found that the rear hub axle would not move. According to their posted service instructions the axle should have been removable by hand or light pressure.
> 
> I took a lot more force than that (there was a hammer involved). Once removed I could see that there was a barb on the inside race of one of the bearings that had gouged the axle.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to post an update. The people at Phil Wood read this and contacted my to get some more details on my customer service etc
experience. I supplied the email chain and they apologized for just dropping the conversation without any explanation. I was told that they are committed to making sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Old thread, but worth adding a couple data points:

We trashed a Hope rear hub on a Fandango, it was clearly a drive mechanism failure (Pawls). Hope fixed it, but I lost faith after that failure; it was within the first dozen rides.

When we started on our Jefe build, I searched far and wide for a bomber hub, pretty much all the pawl styled hubs have the same issues, we also looked at CK and DT. 

We decided on Onyx Racing hubs, they use a Sprag Clutch instead of pawls. The engagement is immediate, there are no pawls or teeth to wear, they are silent and free spinning, and they are very, very strong.

I now have two sets of Onyx hubs (650b+, 29+), about to build a third set (26).

Once you go Onyx, no other hub will do.


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

Kind of an old thread but here is a data point to add.

Chris King since 2002. No issues. Ellsworth Witness low gearing of 24F x 36R.

Do need to lube the ring drive once in a while but very easy to do.


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