# Street fight: motorist vs bike courier



## ZiNE (Jun 30, 2004)

Ok, it's not a mtn bike, but this could of happened to anyone.

https://www.citynoise.org/article/2770

BETSY POWELL, CRIME REPORTER

A series of dramatic photographs capturing a quintessential urban confrontation - a daytime brawl between a bike courier and a motorist in downtown Toronto - has sparked a raging debate in cyberspace.

The vigorous, sometimes vitriolic venting weighs in on a host of topics from pedestrian versus motorist rights and conjecture about the nationalities and sexual preferences of the combatants, to littering and whether the photographer should have put down his camera and stepped in to stop the violence.

The incident apparently began after a man tossed food onto the street in Kensington Market and escalated when the cyclist threw the food back into his car.

"Psycho motorists strike again!" said one posting on the website Citynoise.org, where photographer Adam Krawesky posted the images last Thursday.

Visitor traffic has since gone through the roof with more than 100,000 hits being logged by yesterday afternoon. The images are also circulating widely on the Internet and appear on dozens of websites as far away as The Netherlands, some in foreign languages, with links provided to Citynoise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to side with the courier. The guy shouldnt of thrown his **** out of his window, even if it is degradable. Also fighting a women like that is wrong on many levels.

That blog is getting hammered, so here are some of the pictures:


----------



## paintballeerXC (Jun 9, 2005)

*sorry bike*

when i say him trying to smash the girls bike i though"bet that guys a**"
I went bolistic on one of my firends when he kicked my bike. It hurts when bikes get hurt.


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

I caught up with a guy who threw some fast food wrappings out his window that I picked up then threw them back in, the look was priceless...glad he didn't have a gun, tho. I've been waiting for my opportunity with a lit cigarette...


----------



## Guyechka (Jul 19, 2005)

*lesson learned*

DO NOT PISS OFF DRIVERS!!!

Unless you are built like a brick sh*t house and ready to kick a$$.

Yes, I too agree with the biker: no one should be throwing anything out of their car window. On the other hand, you do have to wonder what she was thinking by throwing it back through the window. I mean, there are so many a$$holes on the roads that you are bound to get yourself into trouble by doing stuff like that! I say follow the guy, wait until he's out of the car and out of sight, then key a nice message about how you feel into the nice paint job.


----------



## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

ZiNE said:


> I have to side with the courier. The guy shouldnt of thrown his **** out of his window, even if it is degradable. Also fighting a women like that is wrong on many levels.


I think fighting is basically wrong on all levels. That said, she started it. And she seems to have done OK. And she was wearing a helmet. When my sister was pounding me, she never let me put on a helmet.

I didn't realize Canadians got into fights when not involved in hockey games.


----------



## Zonk0u (Jun 3, 2004)

Dwight Moody said:


> I think fighting is basically wrong on all levels. That said, she started it. And she seems to have done OK. And she was wearing a helmet. When my sister was pounding me, she never let me put on a helmet.
> 
> I didn't realize Canadians got into fights when not involved in hockey games.


What kind of ***** fights a girl?


----------



## ol-crank (Oct 12, 2005)

*I think I get it, girl throws meat pie, guy throws coffee,*

girl keys guys car, guy jumps on girls bicyle, girl starts pushing back and the guy's an a$$hole.


----------



## mondaycurse (Nov 24, 2005)

One time a car passenger threw trash at me and almost made me crash. Next 4 way stop I was so glad I used a soda can to get a nice scratch in his paint.  I know it sounds mean, but if you throw trash at me and almost make me crash, you aren't getting out easy.


----------



## bulletbob (Apr 5, 2004)

*Exactly why...*



mondaycurse said:


> One time a car passenger threw trash at me and almost made me crash. Next 4 way stop I was so glad I used a soda can to get a nice scratch in his paint.  I know it sounds mean, but if you throw trash at me and almost make me crash, you aren't getting out easy.


I bought pepper spray!


----------



## canadian-clydesdale (Oct 13, 2004)

a u-lock in his grill would have cooled him off.


----------



## ICanDigIt (Jun 23, 2004)

I got off the bus once behind some fuktard, as soon as he got off he just tossed his coffee cup on the ground. Oh man, I was so ready to punch him in the back of his head...but I didn't, you never know whos packin heat...


----------



## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*That was nothing....*

They were quite calm compared to some of the things I've seen and heard of in Montreal. Canadian drivers make motorists from the States look downright civilized at times.

What I can't figure out is how the rider let herself get caught. Its pretty easy to loose a car in city traffic. If you are going to do what she did, be prepared for a quick get-away.


----------



## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

Zonk0u said:


> What kind of ***** fights a girl?


Hey, I think anyone who fights (except in self-defense) is an a$shole.

That said, I did a lot of self-defending as a younger brother. We pretty much stopped brawling when she turned 13 or so (when I was 8). Me and my little brother tried to toss her into a snowbank ten years ago. I got kicked in the nuts, my brother got a bruised shoulder.

This highschool kid once walked up behind my sister and grabbed her shoulder. He'd mistaken her for a friend of his and wanted to scare her. My sister hit him in the face with a fistful of keys. He needed stitches. My sister felt really bad, she might have put an eye out. But she'll do the same thing if it ever happens again.

Don't underestimate girls (or women).


----------



## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

Wow! I would have beat the living hell out of that guy... I got seriously pissed just looking at those pictures! Especially trying to beat up a girl!


----------



## Reposado Man (May 31, 2005)

Littering jerkoffs suck, but taking it upon oneself to toss the garbage back in the car is a bit self-righteous. 

As much as I'd like to take the cyclists' side, they both acted immaturely.


----------



## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

I had a guy flick a lit cig at me once. I just let it go because I was enjoying my ride/day. It would/should take a lot of abuse before coming to blows and even then it's certainly not the safest option available. Unfortunately, I'm not beyond knocking the s h 1 t out of someone if they go way overboard. Ask the guy I floored at a Panthers game for throwing his beer on me AFTER I said excuse me and tried to get out of his way in a crowded concourse. His eye was swollen almost shut by the time he got up but even his wife knew he was in the wrong and yelled at him all the way out of the game.  

I wouldn't start a fight though - that's a serious roll of the dice. I'm not saying what the motorist did was justified but it's also not her job to be the Litter Patrol. I don't feel too sorry for the little lady.


----------



## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

LOL The look on his face in that last pic is great! What a tool. He just wants to kill, kill, kill!!!


----------



## chris_nor_cal (Sep 20, 2005)

yeah if i saw that guy hitting that girl i would have came unglued and put him in the hospital


----------



## Godzilla (Mar 31, 2005)

ol-crank said:


> girl keys guys car, guy jumps on girls bicyle, girl starts pushing back and the guy's an a$$hole.


Uh, try again - the guy's both a coward and an a$$hole. It's a shame that there was nobody nearby with enough huevos to give the guy his due.


----------



## Atomic300 (Feb 9, 2004)

Both are wrong and she is luck she did not get really hurt with all the crazied drivers out their no matter where you live. What is the end result to the story? Has anyone been charged with anything?


----------



## leleklegrunt (Nov 24, 2004)

Look carefully at the sequence of events.

Guy throws food out of car - guys an a-hole.
Girl throws it back in - girls a self-righteous beyotch
Guy throws coffee at girl - guys a bigger a-hole, starting to cross the line into assault
Girl keys guys car - now girls a vandal
Guy goes ballistic, girl goes ballistic - both of them are crazy hotheads.

I think both deserved to get thrown in the slammer to cool off for a while.

If I was there, sure, I would have jumped in and try to seperate them, and if the guy was totally out of control, I wouldnt hesitate to land one or two on his mug, but then again, if I DID manage to seperate them and the girl kept being aggressive (which looks quite likely), I also wouldnt hesitate to b-slap her.

Having said all that, if I was there, I guess I may have done more harm than good. Might even end up in the slammer myself. Wonder why sometimes people just turn a blind eye and walk away?


----------



## SuperNewb (Mar 6, 2004)

I think both of the nuts shouldve been locked away, pref in a cell facing each other 

As from a news site

*
A series of dramatic photos showing a driver and bike courier in an apparent scuffle over litter in Toronto is generating heated online debate about how far the envelope can be pushed in taking a stand.

The photos on the website citynoise.org depict a Jan. 26 incident in the Kensington Market district, a popular tourist site known for its fruit and vegetable markets and tiny shops.

According to the website, the male driver tossed some litter onto the street. The female biker picked it up and tossed it back into the van. He threw coffee on her and the two appeared to fight.

Online chatters were abuzz on Tuesday with their opinions about the alleged incident.

"I often feel like doing just what the courier did by throwing back the garbage into the car," said one person's posting. "Even as a pedestrian. But to get coffee dumped on? That's clearly assault."

The apparent scuffle was photographed by Adam Krawesky, who posted the photos on a photoblog. They were later reprinted on the front page of a Toronto newspaper.

It's believed the car was driving down one of Kensington's narrow streets, which have a speed limit of about 40 kilometres an hour, when he tossed out the bag. The bike courier scooped up the trash, opened the man's car door and threw the bag at him.

The man reportedly threw two cups of coffee at the woman and tried to stomp on her bike as the two scuffled in the street. The vehicle was also scratched in the melee, but it's not clear whether that was a deliberate act.

Several people on the street pulled the two apart. No charges were laid.

The photos filtered through the internet, with links to citynoise.org on some foreign-language websites, spurring spirited online discussions about cyclist and driver rights, littering, violence and whether Krawesky should have stepped in instead of taking the photos.

Krawesky said taking the photos was simply reflex. People on the street jumped in to break up the fight within seconds, he said.

"The first burst of photos is about three seconds between me starting to shoot and people jumping in," Krawesky told CBC News Online. "I apologized to her (the cyclist) for not stepping in right away. She said she understood."

Krawesky, who also goes by the name "hool," said the cyclist is doing well.

"She is OK. Obviously she's a little bit surprised, a little uncomfortable with all the publicity."

While most postings support the cyclist's attempts to voice her opinion against littering, others say opening the man's car door and tossing the trash inside the vehicle goes too far.

"The courier should NOT have thrown it back in, but instead just yelled at him to draw attention to him and make him look like an ass," one posting said. "Instead, she (allegedly) threw it back in, which is just asking for trouble. She is not the police, and it's not her job to be judge and jury of a crime."

Toronto police Const. Kristine Bacharach admits it would be tough to press littering charges - which draw a $305 fine in Toronto.

"You almost need the police officer to witness it," said Bacharach.

Opening a car door, as it appeared the bike courier did, could be considered mischief, and she could have been open to a possible assault charge for throwing the garbage. Deliberately keying a vehicle can result in a charge of mischief or property damage.

A driver has the right to defend himself, but must use common sense, said Bacharach. If the driver stepped out of the car and attacked the cyclist, that could be seen as crossing the line and could lead to charges, she added.

The photos could be used to prove a charge, but their authenticity would have to be verified. *


----------



## FrontRanger (Apr 28, 2004)

How about "read" carefully the sequence of events.

"Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess. Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things... The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob! I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!) And as for the police charging him.... He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch. So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way. And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!? enjoy the beautiful winter riding!"


----------



## SOILWORK (Jan 17, 2004)

Theres nothing more that pisses me off than some ignorant a$$hole throwing garbage out the window.


----------



## Godzilla (Mar 31, 2005)

FrontRanger said:


> He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at me


Threw 2 large Timmies at her? Dude, that's f'd up...


----------



## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

FrontRanger said:


> How about "read" carefully the sequence of events.
> 
> "Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess. Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things... The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob! I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!) And as for the police charging him.... He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch. So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way. And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!? enjoy the beautiful winter riding!"


Hey Leah.... I don't know you from Eve, but I'm glad you're o.k.
Thanks for sticking your neck out and making an "anti-litter" statement. You made January's Hero of the Month short list.


----------



## Atomic300 (Feb 9, 2004)

I still say you have to be careful of your actions no matter what. People are crazy and maybe the next person might have a dangerous object that they have used before. Yes I do hear your point. I live in a city where murder and fighting is second nature to alot of people and they just do not respect life. I hope you think about this next time, also if not for you then for your child. I am not trying to be righteous either.


----------



## NoTreadOnMe (Feb 4, 2006)

Aaaaaaaahahahha!

I hate bike messengers.


----------



## hankthespacecowboy (Jun 10, 2004)

*Brawl On!*

That chick did what I would have done. All those advocating any sort of calmer response - I find it hard to believe you've spent much time riding in traffic.


----------



## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

Yo front ranger, You are one tough lookin chick. You go girl.
I am big against littering myself. the only time i think it is not littering is if it is food thrown in the grass. That way it is out of the way of traffic and the animals and insects will find it and consume it rather quickly. 

How did the bike stand up? 

The one thing for sure is, You can bet every time him and his girlfreind get in a spat, she is going to think and look back on those pictures. And if you look at the caption of his anger, i dont see them being together to long.


----------



## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

hankthespacecowboy said:


> That chick did what I would have done. All those advocating any sort of calmer response - I find it hard to believe you've spent much time riding in traffic.


I agree wholeheartedly. I think there's a difference between cyclists and people who ride for recreation (ie. drive a bike somewhere to ride it.)


----------



## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

NoTreadOnMe said:


> Aaaaaaaahahahha!
> 
> I hate bike messengers.[/QUOTE
> What's your problem Newb? Have you actually ever seen a courier out there in graceland? Freakin' hick!


----------



## Vegetable Man (Jan 31, 2006)

*Positive first post, yeah...*



hankthespacecowboy said:


> That chick did what I would have done. All those advocating any sort of calmer response - I find it hard to believe you've spent much time riding in traffic.


Totally. I was a courier. My girlfriend still is. She's a whopping 90 pounds, rides a bianchi track bike, and puts in more and harder miles than anyone I've ever raced with at a job that's far more gruelling than I can begin to describe. Nearly every time we go out, I see people try to kill her though acts of self-centered carelessness and worse. She and I have both had beer bottles, sandwiches and all sorts of things thrown at us while we're riding. Aparrently this is good fun for young kids. Something happens when an automobile drivers laziness attempts to end my or another cyclists life, and shows no respect or concern. Much like someone else warned above that we shouldn't mess with people in cars because they might turn out to be dangerous, this type of thing makes me react very, very violently. Riding in a city for any length of time becomes a lot like running with a wolfpack. You're fine blending in 90% of the time. But when someone engages you, the stakes are extremely high, as in life or death, and for some of us, before we have a second to give it much thought, the instinct is to turn the tables and become the predator instead of the prey. For that guy to enjoy the luxury of snarling in the last photo, well, it makes me laugh a little, because he's about the luckiest SOB on the planet. If I saw him assaulting her, regardless of whether she returned the favor of having her work environment littered up, he'd be trying to learn how to think through a crushed skull. U-locks shatter bones as easily as they shatter cab windows. That's always the dynamic with us quiet, nonviolent types. Everythings fine until it's not, and then we make it count. All people can be dangerous if provoked properly.


----------



## ol-crank (Oct 12, 2005)

*I'm not sure that you can get the whole story from*

a couple of pics. There has been much written in the Toronto papers about this and nothing from the guy. Pretty much a slam dunk when you here one side of the story. But in "Toronto the Good" , now "Toronto the Hood" this girl gets my vote for making a difference.


----------



## MikeG (Oct 1, 2002)

*4 shiz n giggles*

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1553118


----------



## niceguymr (Jan 31, 2006)

a) Don't pick fights

b) Carry a gun


----------



## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

velocipus said:


> NoTreadOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > Aaaaaaaahahahha!
> ...


----------



## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

hankthespacecowboy said:


> That chick did what I would have done. All those advocating any sort of calmer response - I find it hard to believe you've spent much time riding in traffic.


I have spent a lot of time riding in traffic, and escalating situations is stupid. Totally understandable, but stupid.


----------



## ktmsx (Nov 29, 2005)

what a jacka$$ that guy should be beaten bad... first he throws crap out his window then beats up a women.......my wife is the type to throw his garbage back in his window...F-him.....


----------



## ktmsx (Nov 29, 2005)

I ride motorcycles alot and when some idiot throws his cigarette out and hits me he is going to hear about it ..!!!!!!!!.yeah she probably overreacted but that is no reason to fight a women.......


----------



## Dirdir (Jan 23, 2004)

One day its going to happen. Someone is going to throw litter back into the car and the guy is going to blow that person's head off.

While I really don't like litter, throwing it back in the car does nothing but cause trouble. I doubt the litterer changes his/her littering ways.

By the way, the guy threw out a burger and bun. Is that a lesser level of litter?


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

Or someday, someone's going to litter out thier window, and some pissed off cyclist is going to blow their head off. People get their heads blown off every day. Nevermind the argument in a bar downtown last night that killed 2 people, but hell, people are getting killed and a third of the worlds religious kook population is ready to wage war terrible war over a cartoon. I'm detecting a serious lack of a sense of humor on peoples parts these days. Some of the recent threads here illustrate this perfectly. The FR/DH thread, the Football thread... 

I think it either comes down to too many damn people, or, well, too many damn people. Stick 20 rats in a small cage, and it's only a matter of time before they start clawing each others eyes out.


----------



## The SS Boz (Apr 12, 2004)

God that is a crazy situation....its cool seein somebody flip out like i want to most of the time but keep it bottled up....

ahhh i love living vicariously thru others.....  

The idiots here like to 20oz plastic coke bottle your azz while on road rides.....freakin assault and littering....on the solitary roads sometimes i wait for it to happen, but never to me yet.....


----------



## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Although I too hate litter it does change the situation, in my opinion, if it was just a burger and bun. Is it still litter, yes but damn....it's not like it's a 2-4 of Blue Light bottles. F-ed up situation regardless....


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

That's really surpriseing considering what a friendly city toronto is.


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

*good news*



lucifer said:


> That's really surpriseing considering what a friendly city toronto is.


i just tagged up with her 45 minutes ago and am happy to advise that she's smiling, her bike's in great shape (i'll post a pic when i find the patch cord), she's back to wearing her trade-mark flaming helmet and camo pants...and that she's famous.

Must have been a dozen people that came up to her to wish her well or give her a hug while i was talking to her...2 drivers even jumped out of their cars when stopped at the light to give her a big hug  ...you should see her blush, what a kid

everyone here wants to be the first to find that guy


----------



## mzungo (Sep 14, 2004)

If we all constantly roll over to anti social behaviour we will get the world we deserve.

Dont let the lunatics run the Asylum please!!
Good on you girl.


----------



## mappable (Aug 29, 2004)

I think the biker is getting a free ride. 

sure, the car driver over reacted but the biker instigated the conflict.

He didn't throw the food at the biker, but on the ground. 

The dude is probably a vegan and had just ordered a veggie burger, only to be served the hamburger. He tosses the burger out only to have it thrown back at him in front of his hottie.

The self-righteous biker, put herself and others in danger by her actions.

opening the door of a strange car in operation was dangerous and could have caused a serious accident. what if he had accelerated from the opening door only to run someone over?

This is what can happen you try and teach someone a lesson. Sometimes you get taught the lesson.

Both biker and driver should have used better judgement.


----------



## dante (Jan 12, 2004)

wow. only thing running through my mind at first was how someone should've either beat the ever loving crap out of him, or did some serious damage to his pos SUV. however, on retrospect, this is far far FAR worse. hundreds of thousands of people around the world are viewing this, and what a douche the guy was. I'd say that's karma...


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

mappable said:


> The self-righteous biker, put herself and others in danger by her actions.


What the hell is all this drivel about the biker being self-righteous? When someone litters, do you just let it lay there? I can't imagine the pig sty cities would be if people did that. Here's how it works: When you see someone littering, the first thing you do is give them the benefit of the doubt, and point it out to them in case they didn't realize they littered. If they don't, you pick it up, find a garbage can, and throw it out yourself. Do you think people are nice to those who litter right in front of them and leave it even after they're called on it? They're not, and for good reason. A person has to be a totally self-centered ass to do that, and they have every bit of the verbal lashing coming. Except, a verbal lashing doesn't deal with the litter laying there. So a person may choose not to give out a verbal lashing, and instead, return the favor.

If somebody is so narrow-sighted and self-riteous that they feel public places (or anywhere they don't happen to be) are thier personal garbage can, then it seems right that they should enjoy the experience first, starting with the interior of the car they littered from. As a courier, the road is your office. People throwing hamburgers on your office floor in front of your tires is a substantial hazard. Couriers livelihoods (& lives) depend on safe passage through city streets. When people flamboyantly put them at risk, they are prone to do something about it, just like anyone would.

It sure is fun judging other people on right & wrong though, isn't it...


----------



## mappable (Aug 29, 2004)

do you stop your bike or car and pick up every bit of trash you encounter, or just the trash you happen to see being deposited? who am i to question your inability to collect all trash in order to get to work on time.

you just can't climb on a high horse or courier bike and start enforcing the rules as you see fit.

no one likes a cop, except for when they are the one getting pummelled.



Master Shake said:


> What the hell is all this drivel about the biker being self-righteous? When someone litters, do you just let it lay there?


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

a few pics of her bike today, too bad i can't post a pic of her....she's great

to all those who have passed judgement on what happened here...you have no idea about biking in Toronto, it's a very european macho town, with drivers who try to take you out at every opportunity...a friend of mine was cut off by a taxi driver and told him off...the driver threw a banana peel into his face and knocked him off his bike...driver now has two black eyes and we think he may be missing a few teeth

i do at no less than 50km/day commuting on toronto roads...its like riding through a minefield...just look at this driver in the original post...those are the eyes of a madman, and we have to survive them every day

anyway here's her bike...all fixed and good to go


----------



## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

mappable said:


> do you stop your bike or car and pick up every bit of trash you encounter, or just the trash you happen to see being deposited? who am i to question your inability to collect all trash in order to get to work on time.


How does this have anything to do with what we're talking about? Yes, I and pretty much everyone that lives here picks up a lot of crap left by self-riteous Aholes, every day. If we didn't, our city would look like... Texas. I fail to see any sensible correlation between my inability to pick up every piece of litter on earth at any given moment, this girl picking up a bit of trash during her workday, and how that makes her the self-riteous one. It's just what people do.



mappable said:


> you just can't climb on a high horse or courier bike and start enforcing the rules as you see fit.


Oh no? I can't pick up litter? I can't yell at people who litter in front of me? Well, I think a great percentage of the worlds population will prove you wrong. We do, and we will continue to. It's what keeps us from living in a diseased stinkhole. We don't do it to be better than other people, we do it because it needs to be done, as long as there are idiots intent on littering. Hey, if you want to live in a filthy garbage dump, go nuts with your apartment. Knock yourself out. But by putting your trash out in public, you make it our problem. And then we're gonna make it your problem again. It's a decision you made, and like any action that effects other people, there are going to be reactions. Consequences. That dipwad made it, and that was the instigation. Call it a high horse, or call it whatever you want, but there's no other magical system to deal with litter.



mappable said:


> no one likes a cop, except for when they are the one getting pummelled.


How does this have anything to do with what we're talking about?


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

all good points, but this was not just a case of littering...more like a my case of a car passenger not wanting to finish her coffee and flingining out her window...too bad i was beside the car and got it all over me...or all those cigarette butts flicked into you when you ride by, as well as the splash of drivers going through puddles as they drive by you...i was knocked off my bike twice this week, once by a mercedes forcing me into an ice bank when he passed too close, then by a car that signaled right but went straight

toronto is an odd town,our socialist city council promotes biking...drivers try to kill you at every opportunity. Welcome to my neighbourhood


----------



## drunkle (Nov 11, 2005)

cmon, it's henry rollins, he's a bad ass. it's what he does. 

and quit stalking that poor girl.

do they not have citizen's arrest in canadia? call the cops with his plate and report the littering?


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

they broke up the fight but refused to charge the guy...only in Canada

scary thing is that he's still out there and he now has a track record of beating on women


----------



## Godzilla (Mar 31, 2005)

mappable said:


> no one likes a cop, except for when they are the one getting pummelled.


or doing their part to stop some lazy pile of sh1t from littering...

I'd have done the same thing - I've done it a couple of times that I can think of - the only difference is that I probably would've come out looking like the bad guy cause I would've socked that [email protected] in the throat as soon as he hopped out of his car.

Lazy bastard...


----------



## laotsu42 (Jan 5, 2004)

FrontRanger said:


> How about "read" carefully the sequence of events.
> 
> "Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess. Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things... The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob! I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!) And as for the police charging him.... He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch. So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way. And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!? enjoy the beautiful winter riding!"


bravo ...for standing up to a jerk ...he deserved it i have heard of similar incidents around albuquerque where i am

and it looks like you were driving him back after he stepped on your bike even better ....you did better than me ...i would have beaten him with the bike ....

hope the new bike is allright ...

any way as much attention as this is getting he will be branded and f**ked with for years ....

" hey aren't you that ass who tried to beat some cyclist up for showing you what an ass you are "


----------



## laotsu42 (Jan 5, 2004)

Godzilla said:


> Threw 2 large Timmies at her? Dude, that's f'd up...


BWWWAAAHHHHHAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAA!!

that is just silly ....


----------



## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

*OK, I've been holding out on this...*

Been a mechanic, shop person, commuter and a mesenger... IE: I can dice up downtown S.F. with the best of em, even though I've gotten "bigger and lazier". I try to judge each situation as it happens and never had a hard and fast rule. People are nuts, there's no question about that. Protect yourself, and don't get into something you either cannot handle or deal with the consequences of. Knowing our lovely lady through friends, I applaud her fervor and actions, would I've done the same, can't say.

I still carry a New York noose around my neck, and a u lock that's easily accessible. I now also carry a cell phone with a camera/video capture, and local P.D.'s # on speed dial. I also try my best to remain friends with a lot of the officers in my local, and work locations, and with specific individuals who work both for the City and for some major law firms. Most motorists, or pedestrians, when they see the noose within arm's reach, shy away, but there's always one who just doesn't get "Don't Tread On Me".

Beware of messing with couriers and bike shop people in general. We deal on a daily basis with all aspects of society's ladder. You don't want to meet some of those who call me their friend, on either end of that spectrum.

I'm not into country much, but like Garth Brook's said: "I got friends in low places..."

Remember, ultimately, we all have an opinion on all of this. What matters is that we are priviliged to be able to openly discuss it here, and elsewhere. Ultimately though, what REALLY matters, is what can we learn from this, and how can we benefit by it?

Be careful out there, everyone. I'd hate to see those here I call a friend, or even someone who's conversation engages me here, be stuck in a similar situation, and not come out on top. I've lost a friend this way, not too long ago, and the semi-truck driver got off with a slap on the wrist.

We're ultimately not just cyclists, but drivers too. Live by the golden rule, and be prepared to defend yourself if needed.

Peace!!

Obi..

p.s Leah, you're tough as nails, please stay safe. Be sure Hool gets someone to run his plates for ya!


----------



## mwills (Feb 8, 2005)

*seen it!!!*



Bikinfoolferlife said:


> I caught up with a guy who threw some fast food wrappings out his window that I picked up then threw them back in, the look was priceless...glad he didn't have a gun, tho. I've been waiting for my opportunity with a lit cigarette...


i've witnessed the lit cig back into the car. damm. that was a dream come true moment. it was done by a fellow bike wrench and i was smiling the rest of the day.


----------



## Biggie (Dec 11, 2004)

*My guess is that the dude was a cop...*

I've been charged with assault several times, too much time in bars/working in bars, and IMHO they just lay the charges immediately and let the courts and lawyers figure it out later. Canada is virtually socialist our laws protect victims BIGTIME. There is absolutely NO way that guy wouldn't have been charged - its ridiculous. He's a pig, flatout. I'm 34 now and trying to grow up, but I hate fukking police. Insecure, army wannabe, powertrippin', MoFo's. Nice advice, Toronto Police, a girl gets pistol whipped buy a roid raging twinkie and you recommend she drop the charges???

BTW, Leah if you were worried about the mischief charge and dropped the charges against this savage because of it, bad move, I Think its only a ticket. I'm from Hamilton, somebody please post the numbers of Toronto Very Bad Police or the Crown Prosecutor so they can be spammed. This is an outrage! That guy is soo a cop! Who else would think they could behave like that? AND get a way with it!


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

It is sad the way the police dropped the ball on this. One or two important details left out of everyones sequence of events:

1. Guy litters. 
2. Leah chastises, opens car door, throws litter onto back seat
3. Guy gets out, threatens, then attacks when Leah does not cower. Wrestles with Leah, grabs by helmet, throws against the car in question (his fiances car, in front of his fiance he did ALL of this) Passerbys break it up, Leah leaves. *Guy leaves* Everyone (except Guy) thinks it's all over.
*4. Guy leaves, right? Wrong!* Guy gets back in car, drives a few blocks and turns. Parks, runs back to where Leah has now unlocked and mounted. Attacks without warning from behind! *This is where photos begin!!*
5. The rest you know from the photos, Guy is insane, needs medication.

The cops should have immediately realized the nature of the second altercation. It was a premeditated assault. Apparantly, according to witnesses, after the initial confrontation the guy noticed some scratches on his fiances car, so he decided to return and "show that *****" The scratches, according to the people who saw and dispersed the initial confrontation came from Leah being thrown against this guys fiances car. (a lil 4door POS btw, not the van pictured)

Anyone can see this guys character. It's not just that he littered, it's more about that he got violent with a woman over a non-violent confrontation. He did it in front of his fiance. He then commited a second violent act AFTER he had time to think about it, AGAIN in front of his fiance.

These facts came out late because the Loser Guy and his fiance were so embarrassed by the attention he got (and deserves, everyone should know, when possible, if who they are talking to is scum like this guy) that they tried to build a case to SUE LEAH!!!

Naturally they dropped it when the truth came out.

He'll probably have to move to get a job now. Not a lot of positions available for uncontrollable rage dude in Canada. His fiance is his kind of woman, weak willed, fainting flower, Leah probably impressed the hell out of here, standing up to her "man" that way even though he was trying to beat her. Probably the fiance has felt those puny fists of rage herself.

The problem I had with all this, the reason I bothered to look it up,.....many, many comments on this refuse to draw the distinction between property crime (percieved, and false, against Leah) and violent crime (true, he did that.)


----------



## Sway? (Feb 22, 2006)

mappable said:


> I think the biker is getting a free ride.
> 
> sure, the car driver over reacted but the biker instigated the conflict.
> 
> ...


Still no excuse for going postal on a female. If it was a man his size or bigger, I bet he would have acted differently.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

This is why I reserved judgement or even opinion before hearing the eyewitness accounts. It doesn't endanger anyone to throw litter back into a parked car, even if she opens the door to do it. 

Mappable is a fool, it (he/she) may say it doesn't mean it that way, but justifying violence with non violent behavior is wrong.


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

*Geography???*



velocipus said:


> NoTreadOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > Aaaaaaaahahahha!
> ...


----------



## peroh (Nov 25, 2005)

Whenever I see anyone litter, I simply pick up whatever they have 'dropped', and hand it back to them saying; 'Excuse me, I think you dropped something'. The respons is usually a dumb 'ehhh...mmm....duuuhhh' . So far, no one has ever said 'Oh no you missunderstand, I threw that garbage on the ground by purpose'. Try it!


----------



## skeeter (Dec 30, 2003)

i need more info on this one. if the dude only threw a bun and burger on the ground, no paper included, i don't really consider that littering. it's biodegradable (sp?), and generally doesn't last too long with birds and whatnot taking care of it. it gets consumed quickly. if the guy was cussing at the food when he threw it out, something strange was afoot, also. maybe the burger fell apart, dropped on his lap or something, leaving a ketchup stain, and he had an appointment 10 minutes away. i don't know. 

it also didn't seem like the food being thrown out was directed to the biker, either, but she took it upon herself to direct the food back into the dudes car, right or wrong, and she HAD to know that wasn't going to make the dude happy. 

if the dude DID throw the food directly and intentionally at the biker, that's a different story, and he should have expected some retaliation.


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

skeeter said:


> i need more info on this one. if the dude DID throw the food directly and intentionally at the biker, that's a different story, and he should have expected some retaliation.


Welcome to Toronto...people here have an attitude that's a bit different.

A couple of points...there's no question she started this thing, but it happened in an ethnic area and the macho thing kicked in. I just biked the same street where this happened a few minutes ago, going along the curb, the wrong way on a one way street (everyone does it on this street)...same kind of guy came straight at me and veered of a few inches in front of me...he was playing his version of "chicken"...then started to yell something about my going the wrong way. He took off when i went after him.

Last fall a taxi driver intenionally threw a banana peel into a friends face, knocking him off his bike. The driver thought it was funny too, until Paul caught up with him and left him with two black eyes.

Toronto is a fun place to ride, but the streets are getting crowded, and the drivers get a bit nutty at times... it snowed on Saturday and the curbs still have some snow here forcing me into the right lane at times...a driver thought he was being funny this morning when he thought he could come up behind me and then slam on his brakes but he didn't think that he would slide on the ice. If he didn't skid into the left lane, i wouldn't be typing this now.

She's a good kid, picks up at our office occasionaly, but has that Toronto attitude like all of us here


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

JM01 said:


> Welcome to Toronto...people here have an attitude that's a bit different.
> 
> A couple of points...there's no question she started this thing, but it happened in an ethnic area and the macho thing kicked in. I just biked the same street where this happened a few minutes ago, going along the curb, the wrong way on a one way street (everyone does it on this street)...same kind of guy came straight at me and veered of a few inches in front of me...he was playing his version of "chicken"...then started to yell something about my going the wrong way. He took off when i went after him.
> 
> ...


haha thats all great, cept only idiots go the wrong way on Augusta, you mean you never noticed everyone looking at you like you're some sort of nimrod? I bet someone even says something to you about it occasionally, it's that kind of neighbourhood. Where people can talk or even argue without having to worry too much about some dumbass getting violent. Community.

Oh wait, I just realized you were acting like the guy in the photos today. Sorry. I mean, that guy had no business telling you that you were going the wrong way, he wasn't a cop. Good thing you let him know you were willing to fight him over it....dumbass.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

skeeter said:


> i need more info on this one. if the dude only threw a bun and burger on the ground, no paper included, i don't really consider that littering. it's biodegradable (sp?), and generally doesn't last too long with birds and whatnot taking care of it. it gets consumed quickly. if the guy was cussing at the food when he threw it out, something strange was afoot, also. maybe the burger fell apart, dropped on his lap or something, leaving a ketchup stain, and he had an appointment 10 minutes away. i don't know.
> 
> it also didn't seem like the food being thrown out was directed to the biker, either, but she took it upon herself to direct the food back into the dudes car, right or wrong, and she HAD to know that wasn't going to make the dude happy.
> 
> if the dude DID throw the food directly and intentionally at the biker, that's a different story, and he should have expected some retaliation.


Maybe in a small town it's not so bad, but in a big city food is the worst litter. It rots and stinks into a black slime that sprays when you're unlucky enough to ride through its.

Ever ridden through chinatown? the curbside open air markets, boxes of produce rottin, spilled into the gutter. It's even more fun in the summer. Give me paper anyday, it looks bad sure, but it doesn't stink as bad as food

And it doesn't really matter. property crime < violent crime. Do the math


----------



## SeeVee (Dec 11, 2005)

Regarding hitting a girl: We all know *AFTER THE FACT * that the cyclist was, in fact, female. Look at the pictures though, she dresses like a dude. She looks like a dude. Then toss in (no pun intended) the fact that the "she," or it, picked a fight with a dude. I think it is fair to assume that the driver thought he was fighting another dude.

Even if he knew that she was a female, she asked...no, she begged for it. What did she think he was going to do after she tossed some crap in his car? Was he going to hang his head in shame and apologize?

I've seen people get killed for a lot less.


----------



## 29erchico (Jan 1, 2005)

*Reminds me...*

Of a time about ten years ago I was riding up hwy 88 out of Pine Grove in Norcal one fine summer afternoon. Some punk teenage male threw what seemed to be a whole quart of cola at me in one of those mongo paper cups. A fair amount of it got on me and I responded with the usual finger gesture and very loud reply. The kid replied by *standing up* out of the passenger window and waving both fingers at me with very strong gestures. *Then he slipped* and some how just managed to catch himself at the very last moment with his face not more than 6 inches from the pavement screaming by at 60 mph or so. It was a total instant karma moment, I'm pretty sure he will never forget it either.

29erchico


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

SeeVee said:


> Regarding hitting a girl: We all know *AFTER THE FACT * that the cyclist was, in fact, female. Look at the pictures though, she dresses like a dude. She looks like a dude. Then toss in (no pun intended) the fact that the "she," or it, picked a fight with a dude. I think it is fair to assume that the driver thought he was fighting another dude.
> 
> Even if he knew that she was a female, she asked...no, she begged for it. What did she think he was going to do after she tossed some crap in his car? Was he going to hang his head in shame and apologize?
> 
> I've seen people get killed for a lot less.


What Mormon setlement do You live in, throwback? Those are pictures yes and I can see it's a girl, so even you would know she's a girl in person. Tell me, all the women you know wear dresses and would never, ever wear a helmet? Wow!

How many dates have you found "a little something extra" when you expected less due to your poor perception? You realize your response represents the one you'd (like to be able to) make in real life? So if a female called you out for being an ass, you attack?

You're a WIMP for not holding the line regarding unacceptable behavior in our society, throwback.


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

SpudDamon said:


> haha thats all great, cept only idiots go the wrong way on Augusta, you mean you never noticed everyone looking at you like you're some sort of nimrod? I bet someone even says something to you about it occasionally, it's that kind of neighbourhood. Where people can talk or even argue without having to worry too much about some dumbass getting violent. Community.
> 
> Oh wait, I just realized you were acting like the guy in the photos today. Sorry. I mean, that guy had no business telling you that you were going the wrong way, he wasn't a cop. Good thing you let him know you were willing to fight him over it....dumbass.


yep, heading south from college, along the curb, just minding my own business...just like all the other bikers here. It's a 2 lane street, lots of room, and everyone just gets along down here...no name calling or judgement calls.

When some dick with an attitude tries to prove a point by driving at you on an icy road, you take notice. At my age, we don't fight, but i always make a point of asking these nuts just what they were thinking. You always notice that these cowards have a very different attitude when you speak to them...some try to speed off, buy i usually get to meet them at the next lights.

At least you get to meet some new people...just lucky that we don't have many carry permits in toronto


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

JM01 said:


> yep, heading south from college, along the curb, just minding my own business...just like all the other bikers here. It's a 2 lane street, lots of room, and everyone just gets along down here...no name calling or judgement calls.
> 
> When some dick with an attitude tries to prove a point by driving at you on an icy road, you take notice. At my age, we don't fight, but i always make a point of asking these nuts just what they were thinking. You always notice that these cowards have a very different attitude when you speak to them...some try to speed off, buy i usually get to meet them at the next lights.
> 
> At least you get to meet some new people...just lucky that we don't have many carry permits in toronto


Which Toronto are you in? You don't have _any_ carry permits, only registered peace officers and criminals carry sidearms. Augusta is a one way with curb parking on both sides, one lane. The roads weren't icy yesterday, you imagined that. Even cyclists who are "friendly & confrontational"? are considered morons by and large for going the wrong way. Especially those that fail to eild the right of way to people riding in the direction of traffic. I understand you "think" you're a friendly, harmless fellow, but a strangers perspective of your actions tell a different story.


----------



## RetroG (Jan 16, 2004)

*My weapon of choice...*

Top half of a fishing rod with a 4 ounce sinker duct taped to the end, all strapped to the top tube ready for swingin'.

Are firemen/road workers/crossing guards required to buy their own safety vests in Canada?


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

SpudDamon said:


> Which Toronto are you in? You don't have _any_ carry permits, only registered peace officers and criminals carry sidearms. Augusta is a one way with curb parking on both sides, one lane. The roads weren't icy yesterday, you imagined that. Even cyclists who are "friendly & confrontational"? are considered morons by and large for going the wrong way. Especially those that fail to eild the right of way to people riding in the direction of traffic. I understand you "think" you're a friendly, harmless fellow, but a strangers perspective of your actions tell a different story.


a couple of points here

1. there are lots of carry permits in Toronto...even that former alderman (Gardiner) has one...even after he shot the robber in his bakery. To get one you just have to prove that you need one...pass the tests, get a licence

2. the roads were icy yesterday, as well as today...actually, much worse today because the stuff that melted in the sun yesterday, froze overnight...very slippery around Royal York and Dundas (especially on the bridge over RY), as well as at Dundas & Annette(where the guy came up behind me yesterday)...that stretch between Pacific Ave. and Bloor W. is still bad because they couldn't plow the snow on the weekend because of parked cars...the right lane is shear ice in places

3. i don't think that i'm a friendly, harmless fellow, and strangers have have no doubt about my actions...i tell them what i think. Had a good conversation with a fellow this morning who almost "doored" a biker in front of me, and then started to yell at her (driver was a big fat guy, biker was a girl)...he backed off when we spoke...sometimes people have to be rerminded that the world does not revolve around them

Moron is a strong word...i usually use it only when describing people who make judgements in ignorance and type without thinking and using their brain


----------



## Township75 (Mar 6, 2004)

*Taking the law into your own hands can be great or a disaster*

I'm happy the woman threw the trash back at the littering a-hole, but with that said, when one uses their own sense of justice, you can expect the other person to respond with their own sense of justice, which is what happened here.

I don't know how else someone can be encouraged not to litter other than social pressure, which sometimes means getting your sh!t thrown back at you. If this happened a few times to this a-hole, I bet he would stop. If he continually litters in front of people and nothing happens, then why would he ever change?


----------



## skeeter (Dec 30, 2003)

SpudDamon said:


> Maybe in a small town it's not so bad, but in a big city food is the worst litter. It rots and stinks into a black slime that sprays when you're unlucky enough to ride through its.
> 
> Ever ridden through chinatown? the curbside open air markets, boxes of produce rottin, spilled into the gutter. It's even more fun in the summer. Give me paper anyday, it looks bad sure, but it doesn't stink as bad as food
> 
> And it doesn't really matter. property crime < violent crime. Do the math


and see, that is your opinion. you believe that food is the worst litter. the driver may not believe it is litter at all. instead of trying to talk to the dude, the bicyclist aggressively threw food into his vehicle. only a complete dufus is going to think a move like that will be well received.

sure, the dude should have put the burger in a trash can, but where was the diplomacy from the biker. there wasn't any, from the info presented. the biker wanted some action, and she got some.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

skeeter said:


> and see, that is your opinion. you believe that food is the worst litter. the driver may not believe it is litter at all. instead of trying to talk to the dude, the bicyclist aggressively threw food into his vehicle. only a complete dufus is going to think a move like that will be well received.
> 
> sure, the dude should have put the burger in a trash can, but where was the diplomacy from the biker. there wasn't any, from the info presented. the biker wanted some action, and she got some.


Lots of it is my opinion, cept the trump for any justification of the idiot guys actions, the last line is superior trump for all but the people who don't mind violence themselves to settle personal disputes (aka criminals, abusive parents & spouses etc, the guy in the photos represents the criminal catagory)

Property Crime < Violent Crime, a tenet of civilized society, you wouldn't be here without it.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

JM01 said:


> a couple of points here
> 
> 1. there are lots of carry permits in Toronto...even that former alderman (Gardiner) has one...even after he shot the robber in his bakery. To get one you just have to prove that you need one...pass the tests, get a licence
> 
> ...


It's Gardner, and he doesn't anymore because it's too hard to do unless you are a registered peace officer or a viable member of government or officer of the court. There are about 50 CCWs in All of Canada and all are issued to former PMs, Premiers, High level prosecutors of organized crime and retired police officers (occasionally a member of a police board who is also a gun freak, like Gardner the deranged). He had a FAC for the weapon at his bakery and that's where he shot the guy, his paperwork was in order for where he was, if he'd shot the robber on the street he'd have paid for it. Gardner in fact abused his carry permit as it was only for concealed transport to specified places. The gun laws where you are now, where I used to be, are one of Canadas points of pride as far as I'm concerned and it'd be nice if things weren't so out of hand that they could work where I am now

All those icy streets are way west and north and etc of Augusta, it hasn't had ice beyond what formed beneath the cars due to heavy usage and you know it.

moron isn't too strong, you commend Leah, but in a similar situation you became confrontational. If you really believed what Leah did was A. not deserved of a violent response, B. a bit zealous but still civic duty or C. nonviolent, then you should have yeilded the right of way when the guy riding toward you indicated he would not give up his own (rightfully) right of way. A smile when you do so would indicate you're a man and you respect him and yourself and safety.

You can't be both right and wrong, situational ethics don't have that much flexability and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


----------



## JM01 (Mar 29, 2005)

SpudDamon said:


> It's Gardner, and he doesn't anymore because it's too hard to do unless you are a registered peace officer or a viable member of government or officer of the court. There are about 50 CCWs in All of Canada and all are issued to former PMs, Premiers, High level prosecutors of organized crime and retired police officers (occasionally a member of a police board who is also a gun freak, like Gardner the deranged). He had a FAC for the weapon at his bakery and that's where he shot the guy, his paperwork was in order for where he was, if he'd shot the robber on the street he'd have paid for it. Gardner in fact abused his carry permit as it was only for concealed transport to specified places. The gun laws where you are now, where I used to be, are one of Canadas points of pride as far as I'm concerned and it'd be nice if things weren't so out of hand that they could work where I am now
> 
> All those icy streets are way west and north and etc of Augusta, it hasn't had ice beyond what formed beneath the cars due to heavy usage and you know it.
> 
> ...


*BLA BLA BLA*


----------



## SeeVee (Dec 11, 2005)

SpudDamon said:


> What Mormon setlement do You live in, throwback? Those are pictures yes and I can see it's a girl, so even you would know she's a girl in person. Tell me, all the women you know wear dresses and would never, ever wear a helmet? Wow!
> 
> How many dates have you found "a little something extra" when you expected less due to your poor perception? You realize your response represents the one you'd (like to be able to) make in real life? So if a female called you out for being an ass, you attack?
> 
> You're a WIMP for not holding the line regarding unacceptable behavior in our society, throwback.


You know, when trying to debate an issue and bring others to your side, a good rule of thumb is not to personally insult the other side.

And just for kicks, can you define for me just what is "unacceptable behavior in our society?' Is broadbrushing a particular religion acceptable? Is calling my sex life into question acceptable? Is calling another person a "WIMP" acceptable? Is insulting someone in cyberspace because you know you face a very personal "rebutal" acceptable?


----------



## fsp (Feb 15, 2006)

Ok, so you two are on opposite sides of the whole life thing. Good for you guys. Whatever.

Back onto the fun & games of Motorists vs Cyclists, here's an example of a little cyclist retaliation. Sounds like a "I'm very capable of this" story, meant as a warning, but I have no idea if this happened or not. I am NOT the author of this:

https://www.craigslist.org/sfc/rnr/136721163.html

long story made kinda short: we ride several times a week on various peninsula roads, a group of anywhere from 3 to 20 riders. all responsible folks out for a nice ride and some good training. we've had our share of close calls and dealings with ******* drivers but that's life, right. one day this ****o in a ****-colored sports car rips by our group and swerves into the front of the group almost hitting 4 or 5 riders while blaring his horn. he proceeds to slam on his brakes, causing everyone in the group to grab the brakes and nearly wreck. the ******* then screams something out the window and screeches off. no provocation on our part, he just had the idea he was going to terrorize some bikers. and he had a dealer plate so there was no licence # to write down. a week later i'm leaving work and who do i see but the same ******* who terrorized us. he works in the same corporate park as i do. i follow him for a few miles to what i assume is his condo complex. a plan is hatched. a week later i hide in the bushes along this prick's route home and after about an hour's wait who comes racing down the road but mr. terror. as he roars by i let lose with the brick i've been holding. it hits the side of his car and he jams on the brakes causing the car to spin across the road and slam into the guardrail and come to rest against a concrete barrier. what a show!!! didn't stick around to see if the shithead was hurt but i'll bet he cut way back on racing around in his *****mobile.









All people can be dangerous, especially if they feel provoked. Cyclists are people. Thus: Cyclists can be dangerous too.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

SeeVee said:


> You know, when trying to debate an issue and bring others to your side, a good rule of thumb is not to personally insult the other side.
> 
> And just for kicks, can you define for me just what is "unacceptable behavior in our society?' Is broadbrushing a particular religion acceptable? Is calling my sex life into question acceptable? Is calling another person a "WIMP" acceptable? Is insulting someone in cyberspace because you know you face a very personal "rebutal" acceptable?


Absolutely, all those are examples of discourse. What you propose is that the girl "was begging" to be beaten up for a small nonviolent disagreement, and that it's okay because she was confrontational. Insulting or rudely correcting people who support violence in our society is acceptable behavior. I wasn't trying to debate the issue, it's taken care of, the law is clear and so are the accepted social implications. I was insulting your gross misperception of the situation and your support for the assailant that it infers. I was insulting you.

The Mormon religion and its fundamental members will not likely take offense at the suggestion that female members are asked to behave and appear in a particular manner suitable to their role in the religion. Hence the crack "What Mormon settlement did you grow up in?" implies that one of the few reasonable explanations of someone who can't discern the gender of another because wearing pants or sporting gear is something associated with male behavior only.

Duh. Wimp.

You cry about me insulting you over your views accepting violent acts....grow a spine. Stand up for what you said or get out of the kitchen. Any justification of that guys assault "dude she shouldn't a said nuthin to 'im iffn she didn want her shat slapped down,,,stoopid biatch" is weakness personified.


----------



## SpudDamon (Sep 25, 2005)

fsp said:


> Ok, so you two are on opposite sides of the whole life thing. Good for you guys. Whatever.
> 
> Back onto the fun & games of Motorists vs Cyclists, here's an example of a little cyclist retaliation. Sounds like a "I'm very capable of this" story, meant as a warning, but I have no idea if this happened or not. I am NOT the author of this:
> 
> ...


That's a nice story, I don't buy it really, cept if I could I'd give the local PD the ip address if I were craigslist. The picture is the weak point, I'm supposed to believe the guy went to the trouble of finding the wrecked vehicle at a body shop or impound lot?

This story was never about Motorist vs Courier/Cyclist, whatever. The phodog that posted the pics, Hool, choose that title maybe because cyclists are a vocal lot. The fact is during the 1st, initial assualt (not pictured) Leah was on foot, her bike down the block a bit locked securely. The car the guy was driving, parked. The pictures only show they're second confrontation, after the guy had left, reparked elsewhere and returned on foot to attack Leah a second time. She had just unlocked and mounted, wasn't riding when he attacked.

I don't have a problem insulting people that sympathize or justify with a simple mad dog, or people who say "it's to be expected" They further the problems in all facets of society with their sheeplike acceptance of such things and the things they tell themselves that make it okay. These things sometimes, if they tell themselves enough, may one day justify it even for themselves if they're dumb enough to say it outloud to strangers.

The fact is it's a black and white issue, it's an easy view to take too. If you understand that violence isn't acceptable for you, for anyone at all in your day to day life dealing with people, you'd be amazed at how little you'll encounter.

You can be to the left or right of many issues, beating strangers on the street isn't one of them. It's wrong.


----------

