# New wheelset vs new cranks



## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

My NRS still has the generic cranks that came with it and the mavic 221 rims laced to some generic hubs but I think it is time to get them relpaiced after about 2500 kms in them. IfIi get new cranks they would be Shimano XT hollowtech and the wheelset would be mavic 819 ust rims laced to shimano xt hubs. I found a great deal for the wheelset and they would be a little less than 300 USD so basically it's the same amount of dough for the cranks or the wheelset. 

If you were in my position which would you buy and why? Both still work fine but not at an optimal performance level, anyway I will get one upgrade for this summer season and the other one in december but I can't choose which one to get for this summer.

By the way that wheelset setup would cost (already build) around 350 - 400 USD according to my LBS in AZ.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> My NRS still has the generic cranks that came with it and the mavic 221 rims laced to some generic hubs but I think it is time to get them relpaiced after about 2500 kms in them. IfIi get new cranks they would be Shimano XT hollowtech and the wheelset would be mavic 819 ust rims laced to shimano xt hubs. I found a great deal for the wheelset and they would be a little less than 300 USD so basically it's the same amount of dough for the cranks or the wheelset.
> 
> If you were in my position which would you buy and why? Both still work fine but not at an optimal performance level, anyway I will get one upgrade for this summer season and the other one in december but I can't choose which one to get for this summer.
> 
> By the way that wheelset setup would cost (already build) around 350 - 400 USD according to my LBS in AZ.


Hmmm... I think you'll notice more a difference in a wheelset than in a crank.. as long as the one you have work, I would replace the wheelset first.... just my .02


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

I'd agree with rzozaya. Unless your cranks are really sucky, wheels would be my change. Take your cranks off and spin your bottom bracket, though, to see if you need a new one - much cheaper than new cranks.

My old bike came with 221s and a Specialized front/LX rear hub. I got some wheels custom made and I noticed a huge difference instantly.

The 819s are definitely stiffer than the 221s and of course UST, but they weigh more.

Are you getting the wheels here in Mexico? Are they handbuilt or machine built?


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## the last biker (Oct 12, 2005)

*wheelset or cranset ,crankset or wheelset ,thats the question ...*



General Equilibrium said:


> My NRS still has the generic cranks that came with it and the mavic 221 rims laced to some generic hubs but I think it is time to get them relpaiced after about 2500 kms in them. IfIi get new cranks they would be Shimano XT hollowtech and the wheelset would be mavic 819 ust rims laced to shimano xt hubs. I found a great deal for the wheelset and they would be a little less than 300 USD so basically it's the same amount of dough for the cranks or the wheelset.
> 
> If you were in my position which would you buy and why? Both still work fine but not at an optimal performance level, anyway I will get one upgrade for this summer season and the other one in december but I can't choose which one to get for this summer.
> 
> By the way that wheelset setup would cost (already build) around 350 - 400 USD according to my LBS in AZ.


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My General E.:
If both rolling parts still work fine as you say , wait to the second part of the year and look out for the new 2007 parts.

Is almost sure that Shimano could be make big changes in Mountain bike main groups (XTR-XT-LX) return to separate shifters and brake levers , and hubs , maybe introducing cartridge (sealed bearings ) and six holes system for the rotors.

Other way is buy the 2005-2006 parts , maybe at cheap prices.

For this amount 350-400 usd , you can get the XTR disc hubs laced to Mavic 717 or 819 with a dt or wheelsmith spokes , and for 150 more you can go to the major leagues with C.King or DT-Swiss 240

Regards.

the last biker


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Agreed with the other posters.

You can ride any cranks and only if you're heavy enough you will notice an improvement.

But a wheelset makes far more difference in the bike's ride. Rotational weight is where you'll find more of your bike's total power consumption and if you have to make the best $$/kmh upgrades, those are wheels, suspension and brakes... in that order.

I see cranks just as important as a handlebar or a seatpost. I prefer to spend more on suspension, brakes and wheels and compromise everywhere else.

That said, maybe you should look at the 717's for your NRS. The 221's are extremely hard to beat for weight and the improvements will come from more precise steering and overall performance. 819's are cool, but I think to recall they're heavier than the 717's and if you are an average weight rider, you should be fine.

If possible, go for the XT's with the lightest spokes and nipples you can (DT Supercomps, DT Comps) and 717's. The XT's are heavier than the XTR's but they're the same bearing and freewheel quality and like twice as cheap. The advantage is that the hub is the only point of the wheel where weight is not critical (but it's very important, though).

As Last Biker mentioned, if you can drop money for a nice rear hub with a better engagement system (CK, DT 240's, Hope Bulb and XC Pro2, Hadley), go for it. It makes for a significant difference. You can use almost any front hub from Deore and up and the most noticeable difference will be finishing and price. Front hubs are not rocket science.

If possible, steer clear from system wheels (Industry Nine, Spinergy, Mavic, Shimano, etc). They are generally more expensive, not as light and harder to true than a conventional spoke wheel... that's if you find anyone trusty enough to true one.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

If you're in the US, I'd recommend calling Larry at MtnHighCyclery. For not much more he could set you up with something really nice. Maybe Hope hubs.

I think 717s are around 400gms, DT XR4.1d 425gms, 819 including the spoke adapter thingys are around 500gms.


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanks for the input guys it seems most of u vote for wheelset upgrade so I will be considering that first. I can probably go with the 819 without weight being a big problem. I hit the scale at 64 kilos and if necessary I can gain/lose some without much trouble, hey I'm 21 and my metabolism works perfectly so actually gaining a couple of grams on my bike is no big deal here. If i keep up my cardio workout in the gym I will be around 60 next may so it's all good. 

Last biker's advice on new shimano parts is good to know although I run Sram shifters, derrailleur and avid brakes. The hub parts does intrest me although I'm not much into having the latest product in the market as long as it does what it is supposed to do (unless we are talking Macintosh computers, I have to get my hands on an Ibooks Pro ASAP... dual core *drools*.

Tiger dog these wheels will be hand made build by an LBS which is going out of buissness so they are giving special deals to frecuent clients. They are certified shimano and mavic builders and I've heard good coments on their builds so I guess I trust them. They have always done a good job when working on my bike. 

Warp why did u have to make me lust after a more expensive hub? I wish money wasn't an issue right now but I was stupid enough and used up most my savings from the last couple of months in lots of stuff I probably didn't need but really enjoy... Imac dual core ... damn apple... damn them.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> Thanks for the input guys it seems most of u vote for wheelset upgrade so I will be considering that first. I can probably go with the 819 without weight being a big problem. I hit the scale at 64 kilos and if necessary I can gain/lose some without much trouble, hey I'm 21 and my metabolism works perfectly so actually gaining a couple of grams on my bike is no big deal here. If i keep up my cardio workout in the gym I will be around 60 next may so it's all good.


I'm 64 kilos too... but pack much less power. If the 819's are all that they're clearing, go for them. If you can choose, take a look at the 717's... at our weight, almost any wheel will hold up fine.



General Equilibrium said:


> Warp why did u have to make me lust after a more expensive hub? I wish money wasn't an issue right now but I was stupid enough and used up most my savings from the last couple of months in lots of stuff I probably didn't need but really enjoy... Imac dual core ... damn apple... damn them.


Oh, come on... I suggested also to go XT's... but you didn't read that, did you?? 
Again, I think 717's with DT Supercomps and XT's (or rear Hope Pro 2, XT Front) would do a really nice wheelset. Even at full retail, it's around the 350 bucks figure, so it's a nice, light and realiable wheelset with 36 pointsof engagement.


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

No, I did read about the XT's but my mind ignored it after 2 seconds and focused on the expensive hubs hehe. Yeah the 717's are nice but tubes suck in Sonoran riding conditions thorns, sharp rocks and more stuff like that.. hey one time I got a flat from a snake bite... and I'm not talking about the commonly known two holes in your tube snake bite flat.. I'm talking about a real snake bite literally.. rattle snake I think don't remember what type of snake it was... anyway I wan't UST for that reason.

There is a 3:1 flat ratio between me and my friend's who ride UST back home.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> No, I did read about the XT's but my mind ignored it after 2 seconds and focused on the expensive hubs hehe. Yeah the 717's are nice but tubes suck in Sonoran riding conditions thorns, sharp rocks and more stuff like that.. hey one time I got a flat from a snake bite... and I'm not talking about the commonly known two holes in your tube snake bite flat.. I'm talking about a real snake bite literally.. rattle snake I think don't remember what type of snake it was... anyway I wan't UST for that reason.
> 
> There is a 3:1 flat ratio between me and my friend's who ride UST back home.


How about Stan's???

You could save some more grams. Tubeless tyres, and rims are heavier and many times you need to put some sealant/flat protection anyway.

I'm asking... I haven't used the thing myself.


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

Stan's seems to work wonders for some and be a disaster for others... dunno I guess I'd rather have the real UST rims. Do you have andy other UST rim suggestions other than the 819 that could be worth considering... nothing too expensive tho.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Again, I think 717's with DT Supercomps and XT's (or rear Hope Pro 2, XT Front) would do a really nice wheelset.


Yeah, but the front Hope isn't that expensive. If you're buying the rear...


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

General Equilibrium said:


> Stan's seems to work wonders for some and be a disaster for others... dunno I guess I'd rather have the real UST rims. Do you have andy other UST rim suggestions other than the 819 that could be worth considering... nothing too expensive tho.


So far Stans are nice, good luck mounting them on a tire without an air compressor though 

I agree with Warp, you need to put sealant even in Tubeless tires (I learned by walking for two hours to get out of the woods...)

Cheers,

Mada


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> Stan's seems to work wonders for some and be a disaster for others... dunno I guess I'd rather have the real UST rims. Do you have andy other UST rim suggestions other than the 819 that could be worth considering... nothing too expensive tho.


Mavic Crosslands, they're a good wheelset. Not too light, but they work fine. I have them and haven't got any problems with them. I'm 100 Kg and don't ride that smooth, so they can take some beatings. They can take both UST or standard tires.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Well, I suppose King ISO disc supercomp DT XR4.1d wheels will do for now...


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

*#[email protected]$%^*

So my father just called, he went out for a ride with a friend of his riding who happened to be riding my bike, crashed and my brake levers got f***ed up. So I'm now in the market for new brake levers.. ah what the hell new brakes also, good thing I don't like discs so I'll just go with avid ultimates or avid single digit SLs.

New wheelset will have to wait until december.. it's a good thing tho because now I can save up more money and buy a nice set of hub's.. bling bling.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> I wish money wasn't an issue right now but I was stupid enough and used up most my savings from the last couple of months in lots of stuff I probably didn't need but really enjoy... Imac dual core ... damn apple... damn them.


I just ordered 5 MacBook Pros for work. Should be here in a couple of weeks. Going to Apple's head office to play with one next week.

Only sucky thing for me is there won't be a Universal Binary for Adobe Creative Suite until CS3 comes out. Photoshop is going to be pretty slow on them for a while.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yep thats a problem I'm having too, btw I am getting a macbook pro for myself... nice laptop.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

tigerdog said:


> I just ordered 5 MacBook Pros for work. Should be here in a couple of weeks. Going to Apple's head office to play with one next week.
> 
> Only sucky thing for me is there won't be a Universal Binary for Adobe Creative Suite until CS3 comes out. Photoshop is going to be pretty slow on them for a while.


Hey tigerdog where do you work at? you think you could give me a hand and tell them i could be their achichincle? I'm in desperate need of money.. hahahahahaha


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

Tigerdog... do u use the Macs for real work or just hate using windows and use the Mac as a substitute? 

I just use them because I hate windows and its constant crashing and like OS X much more than XP. I run Photoshop on my Ibook 1.33GHZ G4 512MB and it runs pretty decent, but as I said I don;t do any real work on it.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> Tigerdog... do u use the Macs for real work or just hate using windows and use the Mac as a substitute?


I use them because they don't suck. Life's too short to be using windoze.

As Douglas Adams said:

"The Macintosh may only have 10% of the market, but it is clearly the top 10%."

I do real work on them, so do my students. I have both PCs and Macs in my room, a lot of my students didn't like Macs - until they tried them. The PCs are just taking up desk space now.

I've worked for companies that have used both. OS 9 wasn't much better than windows re: crashes. OS X is lightyears ahead of XP. Rock solid UNIX core. Awesome GUI.

I use a lot of graphics and some audio apps: Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, Dreamweaver, Flash, iMovie, FinalCut, GarageBand, SketchUp (awesome app), Maya etc.

I also use Office for Mac (much better than the PC version), and lots of other things.

I also use my Sony K700i phone as a remote control for it via bluetooth. 

I use it to access our windows network (when our windows network is working), and I get my Exchange Server mail and my Hotmail through Apple's Mail.

The only thing I use my PC for is entering class attendance and grades on our horrible PC-only grading software.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Hahahaa tell that to me, I run Photoshop, Illustrator and CAD at the same time LOL.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yeah, SketchUp is a very very good program, not as detailed as any CAD but you can create awesome 3D stuff very easily and flexible enough to export to other programs.

My computer won't run Maya well enough


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

They just got bought by Google. We've been making models in SketchUp then taking them into Maya to animate and render.

My friend's a designer for EA Games and they're using it for level previsualisation.

Oh yeah, and as an instructor, I get it free!


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

Wow, u really take advantage of ur Macs... I only use office and usual everyday apps, as far as specific suites I may use usually I work with Stata and Econemetrica which are econometrics and statistical software for "reasearch professionals" whatever that is... but both run almost the same than they would on XP a tad faster pherhaps but not much really... but as I sad I love OS X and the 12 inch I book's weight is ideal to be carrying it around tec all day long..


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> I use them because they don't suck. Life's too short to be using windoze.


I haven't used Macs, personally I have a crappy PC at home and maybe I've been just lucky, but so far I haven't had all the buttload of problems other people seems to have.

No 3D CAD here, but some heavy CAD anyway from time to time, some macros on Excel and stuff... so far, so good.


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## General Equilibrium (Nov 20, 2005)

Oh and yes, Apple has very little market share in the PC bussines but I've seen more and more everyday users switch to mac.. I think it's an Ipod effect, peoplle liked them and are willing to try some other Apple products. 

At least here iat Tec I see more and more macs around it used to be a 10:1 ratio and now its a 5:1 ratio, at least among the people I get along with.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> No 3D CAD here, but some heavy CAD anyway from time to time, some macros on Excel and stuff... so far, so good.


I'd love to try SolidWorks. No Mac version, though.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

General Equilibrium said:


> Oh and yes, Apple has very little market share in the PC bussines but I've seen more and more everyday users switch to mac.. I think it's an Ipod effect, peoplle liked them and are willing to try some other Apple products.
> 
> At least here iat Tec I see more and more macs around it used to be a 10:1 ratio and now its a 5:1 ratio, at least among the people I get along with.


I guess it has more to deal with the fact that now you can work with PC based programs in Mac and some of the people I've seen who have Macs (not all, abviously) is because they're "In" 

I'm not bashing on Macs or defending PC's... just stating some facts.

Years ago, if you had a Mac, you were stuck with working only with other Mac users which were a minority (maybe not the case in the US, Tiger; but it was pretty much this way for Mexico). Now you can share files with everybody. Software was not that available and expensive and so on. Now it's more equalized and there are not reasons good enough for not buying a Mac.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> I'd love to try SolidWorks. No Mac version, though.


I'd like to try it out too. People say it's easy to create 3D stuff. I want to get the Mechanical Engineering Suite for CAD. Too expensive and I'm not a teacher... bummer.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yea its very expensive, I havent seen that one yet. 

Oh by the way, I run those three programs on a p4 1.6ghz/256 ram/32mb video/160GB space, hahahaha, because of the space my music is taking I only have 25GB left


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

For work I use a UNIX machine with 2 procesors and 4 to 6 gigs of ram... for bigger jobs we use a really big machine =) I really like UNIX! As at some point in time I was a professor at IPN and got some CAD/CAE software, if you don't use the software for production stuff I may be abble to help you (no SolidWorks but something similar!)


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Me, I use a superfast 386 titanium with SPV-activated cd-rom and horst-keys... planning on upgrading to a VGA-hydraulic display....

er... oopps! I guess I'm starting to have an identity crisis meltdown here.....


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

arivas said:


> For work I use a UNIX machine with 2 procesors and 4 to 6 gigs of ram... for bigger jobs we use a really big machine =) I really like UNIX! As at some point in time I was a professor at IPN and got some CAD/CAE software, if you don't use the software for production stuff I may be abble to help you (no SolidWorks but something similar!)


What do you do in there with that F1-Suspension-design-level computers??

Dude... and I felt proud of my trusty Toshiba and computing skills... you guys just bummed me.


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

Computer Fluid Dynamics/Computer Heat Transfer analysis on cars. The Toshiba is nice, especially the horst link type...


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

arivas said:


> Computer Fluid Dynamics/Computer Heat Transfer analysis on cars. The Toshiba is nice, especially the horst link type...


Now I have some serious envy.... I'd love working on crap like that.

Do you work for some car maker?? GM, probably?? I have friend working at Toluca's GM plant.


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

I hardly go to the plant, but I know some people there. It's a nice job it's sometimes interesting and sometimes, when waitting for results you have a lot of time... I'd be envious of going to Spain twice in a year!
By the way there is going to be a bike race in Toluca next 26th. (the first race of the State serial) I'll send some pictures, maybe toda I can take some pictures of the track.
(just to keep somewhat on topic!)


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

arivas said:


> I hardly go to the plant, but I know some people there. It's a nice job it's sometimes interesting and sometimes, when waitting for results you have a lot of time... I'd be envious of going to Spain twice in a year!
> By the way there is going to be a bike race in Toluca next 26th. (the first race of the State serial) I'll send some pictures, maybe toda I can take some pictures of the track.
> (just to keep somewhat on topic!)


If by any stretch of luck you know Federico Jaeger, say hi from me.

What you describe your work is like, sounds like the rythm of R&D. I could live with that.

My job is not as glamorous as it sounds. Neither a business trip is to anywhere. For the last trip, basically I spent more hours in a plane than at Madrid. Not to mention you're dispatched whenever the company needs and that may imply you have no money in your pockets and gotta watch you expenses in foreign (and more expensive) currency.

This year, I have no chance of any traveling I guess... Only auctions with the Federal Government.

Dide, we gotta do a Nevado Ride... you'll be the guide!
Any tips on bike transportation to Toluca?? I can reach the TAPO or Central del Norte by bus, but I wouldn't know how to get to the Nevado Park.


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## arivas (Oct 11, 2005)

I can see if we can arange something for Nevado, there is public transport right from the bus station to Raices (wich is the last town before the park) I can ask/arange a bus taking us there and piking us at Raices to the bus station, we could discuss about this either on April 2 or by PM/e-mail? I'll have more info on logistics by next week! As to guide... well, I haven't gone there but I'll give a try before taking all the people there...!
Oh, and yes I'm R&D sometimes things go slooooooow and sometimes you live on sheer terror/anger/aungst, working 3 consecutive shifts is a very real possibility!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

arivas said:


> I can see if we can arange something for Nevado, there is public transport right from the bus station to Raices (wich is the last town before the park) I can ask/arange a bus taking us there and piking us at Raices to the bus station, we could discuss about this either on April 2 or by PM/e-mail? I'll have more info on logistics by next week! As to guide... well, I haven't gone there but I'll give a try before taking all the people there...!


Thanks.... We'll work it out patiently and with anticipation. When we meet at Apr2, we'll chat about it.



arivas said:


> Oh, and yes I'm R&D sometimes things go slooooooow and sometimes you live on sheer terror/anger/aungst, working 3 consecutive shifts is a very real possibility!


Have you been at a plant start-up/commissioning?? I spent three days doing an oil flushing on three gas turbines with just around 8 hours of sleep for the three days. Not to mention the times I had been pulled off from bed or going 18 X 7 for weeks. That makes up for the time we spent with a thumb up our arses.

It's exhausting, but it's a blast!! When you look back and see all the amount of work spent in so short time, you get some satisfaction feeling that's hard to describe. 

Well... that was on site. Something similar goes here when delivering a Bid... it's just not as fun. No glamour in putting papers inside a binder as compared as the bling of wrneching on turbomachinery.

Sorry for the long "choro"... I just miss it sometimes, I guess I just had to vent.

Sorry for the highjack.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> My computer won't run Maya well enough


You need more RAM, maybe a better graphics card. I think your processor should be fine.

BTW. I have Student home licenses for SketchUp, if you'd like one.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I have temporary license for SketckUp, maybe for the near future a home license would be cool, thanks.

Well I dont do much design at the moment due to the performace of my PC after a music-UGI attack, raised from 25GB of music to 71GB... LOL

Just some months away from my MacBook Pro.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

tigerdog said:


> You need more RAM, maybe a better graphics card. I think your processor should be fine.


I read on an article that you should have 5 times as much RAM as the size of the Photoshop file you are using. I should be using 1Gb Ram at least, 128 or 256mb video card and a 2ghz processor.... 

I need a new hard drive as well, i think i may buy a 300gb external...


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## FxFvD (Jan 26, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> I have temporary license for SketckUp, maybe for the near future a home license would be cool, thanks.
> 
> Well I dont do much design at the moment due to the performace of my PC after a music-UGI attack, raised from 25GB of music to 71GB... LOL
> 
> Just some months away from my MacBook Pro.


get a crack for the thing of the thing of the stone


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Wtf?!?!


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