# Chinese 2015 cyclocross bike frame 142mm thru axle



## Digitalliquid (Jun 23, 2012)

First Look:2015 cyclocross bike frame 142mm thru axle New cyclocross bicycle carbon frame, View 2015 cyclocross bike frame, OEM Product Details from Shenzhen Featbike Sport Equipment Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

Hey did a forum search and didn't return anything for 'FM285'. Im considering purchasing this frame because it has everything im looking for: disc, bb30, tapered steerer, and through axle. Now I know we all talk about the Chinese frames but my biggest concern is the through axle. how has your Chinese carbon 142x12 frame held up? anyone have any intrest in this frame?

Specifications

2015 cyclocross frame 
rear142X12mm thru axle 
front 100X15mm thru axle 
bottom braket PF30/BB30/BSA

Item:
FM285
Size:
50cm,52cm,54cm,56cm,58cm
Weave:
UD
Finished:
To order
Type:
Thru axle cyclocross
Material:
Hight Modulus Toray Carbon Fiber
Brake Type
Disc Brake (front and rear 160mm rotor)
Frame rear spacer:
142mmX12mm thru axle
Fork spacer :
100mmX15mm thru axle
Head tube:
Taper 1-1/8" to 1-1/2"
Seat Tube:
For diameter 31.6mm seat post
Cable:
Internal cable
Groupset:
Di2 and Machine compatible
Bottom Bracket
BB30 and BSA
Tire size:
700X38C
Warranty:
2 years


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

I suspect that as there are currently only CAD drawings available, that frame will likely not be available for shipment for ~4-6 months.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

There are hundreds of satisfied IP-057 buyers in the 29er forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

Not sure I would want through axles on a true CX bike, especially if you are racing.


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## BrianBak (Apr 11, 2011)

Subscribed. I am also very interested in that frame. Please post your findings


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

Sounds interesting!


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## abyssal (Sep 6, 2014)

I contacted the seller:
The frame is available in about 45 days.
I will definitely order one in size 54.
As soon as it will be here, I will post images of my build.

Group: Ultegra Di2
STI: ST-R785
Brakes: BR-RS785
Discs: SM-RT99 140mm (Centerlock)
Wheelset: DT Swiss X 1700 Spline Two 29" (Centerlock)

According to a DT Swiss rep, the new 2015 Spline thru axle wheelsets will accommodate 11-speed road-cassettes without problems, despite beeing MTB 10sp. I really hope thats true...
DT Swiss - X 1700 Spline TWO 29
(If you have more infos, please post 

They go for 460€ right now: Bike24 - DT Swiss X 1700 SPLINE TWO 29" Wheelset Centerlock Front: 15x100mm/QR | Rear: 12x142mm/QR
I think thats a very fair price, considering the Shimano WH-RX830 (no thru axle) costing double the price and are 160g heavier..


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

abyssal said:


> I contacted the seller:
> The frame is available in about 45 days.
> I will definitely order one in size 54.
> As soon as it will be here, I will post images of my build.


I am looking to build a cross bike and want thru axles (I doubt I'll ever ride another off-road bike without them). This frame seems to fit the bill. I contacted miraclebikes which has the frame on their website and they don't seem to know when it will be available. The frame geometry seems to be the same as their MC105 frames (which makes sense, a lot easier to modify an existing frame than create a new geo), they could not confirm that however, though the person I talked to thought it was the case.

I did get detailed 105 frame specs from her (full cad drawing pdfs) for both the 54 and 52 frames, as well as the fork, and while the wb is a bit short for the size (very square geo) it might be just what I was looking for (better handling for a slight toe overlap on the 52). I am undecided yet. Still doing some calculations and comparisons.

Anyways, what seller did you contact that gave you a quote of 45 days?

Did they give you a price?


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

In for price! specs seem strange to have seat tube length and TT length identical tho.


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## abyssal (Sep 6, 2014)

Slyver said:


> Anyways, what seller did you contact that gave you a quote of 45 days?
> Did they give you a price?


Hi
I contacted the alibaba-seller (Featbike Sport Equipment Co., Ltd.):
First Look:2015 cyclocross bike frame 142mm thru axle New cyclocross bicycle carbon frame, View 2015 cyclocross bike frame, OEM Product Details from Shenzhen Featbike Sport Equipment Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

I am in contact with Mr. James Pan.
I did not request a price till yet and only asked for aviability, it will be in the typical range for a chinese seller as quotet on alibaba (US $ 420 - 650 per Set)

James Pan 
Shenzhen Featbike Sport Equipment Co., Ltd.
T: 086 755 89990635 | F: 086 755 89990595 
E: [email protected]
W: Full Carbon bike 
Products Showroom on Alibaba.com


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

jkidd_39 said:


> In for price! specs seem strange to have seat tube length and TT length identical tho.


It's actually pretty standard. The measure for seat tubes from BB center to the top of the seat tube is a poor measurement, since the part after the connector between the seat tube and top tube is inconsequential to all of the measurements that make any difference to anyone doing frame sizing. The actual seat tube height is 480mm (from BBC to ST/TT connection) on the 52, and 500mm on the 54. This is definitely in the "normal" range.

The only "strange" (less common) part of the geo is that on the small and medium frames, they still come close to the "sweet spot" angles on the ST and HT (73/73). Most companies spread those angles out more (especially the head tube angle, at least on cross bikes) to increase the front center distance (between BB and front axle) and eliminate toe overlap (TO). These particular frames (the FM/MC105 and maybe the 285s) do not. What this gives is a lower trail (and flop) and increased capacity to shift your center of gravity around, so both you and your bike are more agile, at the expense of potential toe overlap, at least on the smaller frames with bigger 700c tires.

I personally don't care overmuch about toe overlap, as I am pretty agile on a bike, and can overcome it with ease, especially on a sub 18lb small bike. On the 52 with 35c tires, according to my calculations (i would normally be sized for a 54-55 top tube) I will have ~15mm TO, and can reduce that to next to nothing by increasing the stance width.

Another way to eliminate TO (if it is problematic, which really is debatable) is to go with smaller wheels/tires. When I find the right frame for my build (very possibly this one), I am considering getting a set of 650b wheels and as large tires as I can fit. (it looks from the cad drawings I might be able to fit 48c, but 44c should be easy). A best of all possible worlds bike with a wheel change, booya.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

@abyssal

Thank you. Please keep us posted on any updates you receive from the distributor!


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

abyssal said:


> I contacted the seller: The frame is available in about 45 days.


Based on past experiences, this sounds a lot like marketing speak from the manufacturer (Hint - its not Feat or Miracle) which has not actually started producing the frame but is tooling up for production while gauging how much demand there will be. Typically, availability for a new frame can span 30-60 days once the first images of an actual frameset appear on the trading companies website. :skep:


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## swemtb (Jun 24, 2012)

*BB drop?*



Slyver said:


> I am looking to build a cross bike and want thru axles (I doubt I'll ever ride another off-road bike without them). This frame seems to fit the bill. I contacted miraclebikes which has the frame on their website and they don't seem to know when it will be available. The frame geometry seems to be the same as their MC105 frames (which makes sense, a lot easier to modify an existing frame than create a new geo), they could not confirm that however, though the person I talked to thought it was the case.
> 
> I did get detailed 105 frame specs from her (full cad drawing pdfs) for both the 54 and 52 frames, as well as the fork, and while the wb is a bit short for the size (very square geo) it might be just what I was looking for (better handling for a slight toe overlap on the 52). I am undecided yet. Still doing some calculations and comparisons.
> 
> ...


Any information on BB-drop? Can you post a pic of the 105 geo 

Regards /Johan


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

52 geo here: Miraclebikes MC105-D-520

54 here: MC105-D-540

And fork here: MC105-D-Fork

BB drop is 65mm.


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## BrianBak (Apr 11, 2011)

Has anybody anything new to report about the frame and fork?


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

A search on alibaba turned up a new result; pictures of the actual frame and not just CAD drawings.

At least I haven't seen it before. It looks beautiful.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Hi, new to forum, lurker for years though

I've actually bought one of these frames from ICAN Bikes, though they call it the AC109. My desired spec was made in ten days and posted. Took 45 days to reach Ireland due to various problems in China (October holiday etc.) Once out of China it was here in two or three days. While I've received it I actually haven't seen it yet (delivered elsewhere). But if any of you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.


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## Sleeveless (Nov 18, 2006)

Racing snake said:


> Hi, new to forum, lurker for years though
> 
> I've actually bought one of these frames from ICAN Bikes, though they call it the AC109. My desired spec was made in ten days and posted. Took 45 days to reach Ireland due to various problems in China (October holiday etc.) Once out of China it was here in two or three days. While I've received it I actually haven't seen it yet (delivered elsewhere). But if any of you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.


The AC109 does not appear to be thru-axle on their site.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Sleeveless said:


> The AC109 does not appear to be thru-axle on their site.


So what I did is order dropouts for qr and TA should I switch to that going forward. Fork is only Qr though.


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

Will it be possible to mount fenders/mudguards and even rack on these frames? 

Rgs


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> Will it be possible to mount fenders/mudguards and even rack on these frames?
> 
> Rgs


I can only speak for the Ican models; so not on the AC109 as it has no eyelets, but it is possible on one of their other ones, the AC058 I think.

Collected frame today, still have to unwrap it but all looks good so far


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> Will it be possible to mount fenders/mudguards and even rack on these frames?
> 
> Rgs


From the pics, it seems the front fork has an eyelet, but the seat stay does not. It looks like it would be quite simple to drill it and bond in an eyelet however. Then you could use something like this that straps on to the fork/seat stays and eyelets for fenders (or their hybrid version for wider tires).

As for the rack, I mounted a regular rack using this for the top mount and a couple electrical insulated p-clamps on the back of the chainstays (5/8" if I remember correctly, <$2 at home depot) on my girlfriends new cross bike. I had to push the racks downtubes into the p-clamps under a little bit of force to make it fit, but it is *solid*.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

I am not convinced the AC109 is the same frame as the FM285 advertised at miraclebikes and alibaba. It looks like it is the same manufacturer from the pics, but the stats do not match (advertised geometry, tire size, BB type, front fork type (TA is advertised on the FM285), etc.). That doesn't mean it is not, one is a pre-release advertisement, and the other is an actual frame being sold, so who knows. I am just not convinced.

I very much hope it is not, as I *really* do not like the relaxed geo of the Ican frame. It also is not currently being sold with the front thru axle, which is far more important (with regards to how much of an effect it has on handling, stiffness and feedback in a technical environment) than the rear (although both are nice). We will see when miraclebikes actually starts selling theirs. I will contact them again when the stated time is up (~3 more weeks) and see if they have an updated availability time and frame stats.

@Racing snake: Thanks for the updates. Keep 'em comin'.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Slyver said:


> I am not convinced the AC109 is the same frame as the FM285 advertised at miraclebikes and alibaba. It looks like it is the same manufacturer from the pics, but the stats do not match (advertised geometry, tire size, BB type, front fork type (TA is advertised on the FM285), etc.). That doesn't mean it is not, one is a pre-release advertisement, and the other is an actual frame being sold, so who knows. I am just not convinced.
> 
> I very much hope it is not, as I *really* do not like the relaxed geo of the Ican frame. It also is not currently being sold with the front thru axle, which is far more important (with regards to how much of an effect it has on handling, stiffness and feedback in a technical environment) than the rear (although both are nice). We will see when miraclebikes actually starts selling theirs. I will contact them again when the stated time is up (~3 more weeks) and see if they have an updated availability time and frame stats.
> 
> @Racing snake: Thanks for the updates. Keep 'em comin'.


Regarding the data provided in the stats. I find it is frequently incorrect to what they are selling (all Chinese frame sellers). Especially on the alibaba listings. While I didn't compare the geo you are right about the BB though, mine was offered in BSA or BB86 not BB30, I chose the BB86. I've received rear drop outs for both qr and TA, but yes the from is QR only as I expected. I wasn't aware that the MB one had TA front. If there's anything you want me to verify against the MB FM285 specs, just ask (now that I had the frame here).

Yea, I'm not sure myself, but these companies are all connected in some way. For example; when I was having difficulty with the shipping I missed a phone call from a Chinese number. A web search brought me to a Miracle bikes alibaba listing. I asked Ican if they were were trying to phone me. To which they replied that it was their sales manager (or similar, I can't remember the exact title), and that he was contacting me to try to resolve my delivery problem!

Will do, not sure if I can post pictures as a newbie here?


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Racing snake said:


> !
> 
> Will do, not sure if I can post pictures as a newbie here?


15 posts requirement to post pics fyi

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

jkidd_39 said:


> 15 posts requirement to post pics fyi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better get asking me some questions so! lol

Quality on this frame by the way looks excellent. Easily as good as the Canyon CF SLX I had in recent years.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

I've got a couple questions:

Is the geo on the AC109 as advertised? 

How much was it (frame and fork delivered cost) from Ican? 

Did you enquire about a TA fork when you ordered?


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Slyver said:


> I've got a couple questions:
> 
> Is the geo on the AC109 as advertised?
> 
> ...


Hi Slyver, sure;
I've no equipment here to measure the geo properly (apart from the actual tube lengths). So I just verified the size and its bang on 56cm BB centre to top of seat tube and same ETT. I'm less concerned about slack angles as others as I ride a 120mm FS marathon type MTB the rest of the time. So I'm hoping it feels more akin to a MTB then a full-on twitchy road-race bike. Slack angles will also be helpful as the Cx races here can be quite technical. Local roads I train on are often coated with crap from farms so I'd prefer the slack angles there too. Other then all this, for now all I can say is everything looks right, though I know that will be of little use to you.

Frame came with DI2 ports also which I thought I'd have to select as an option. Not that I'll use them but its nice to know should I consider it.

It didn't however come with the internal cable inners like the website pictures. No biggy though, I'll just buy some. I've never had internal cabling before so if any of you could recommend a brand for me...? No bottle-mount bolts or seat collar either.

In or around €450 with free headset, and about 5 sets of spare dropouts/hangers and shipping inclusive. They were happy to under declare the total value for customs too if that is a concern. I didn't haggle on the price at all, I just wanted to get the frameset quick, which didn't happen due to shipping problems. So I've missed a window to build the bike up quickly as I'm pretty busy with other stuff at the moment.

I had a set of hubs on order already so initially ordered the frame with QR only and added the TA rear dropouts as an afterthought. In hindsight I would have ordered F/R TA hubs and looked for a compatible frame/forks like you are though. While I use TA front on my MTB I still think that its 'swings and roundabouts' for Cx bikes. I never found QR to be lacking on a road bike, its still lighter, easier to change the rear in a hurry, etc. A good wheelset might lessen the flex if its a problem?

I need to ask Ican about their recommended torque settings for the fork steerer as I've never before used the internal expander type they sent me. So I'll ask about the option of a front TA while I'm at it and revert with info for you all about that.


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## BrianBak (Apr 11, 2011)

Hi Racing snake

Did it include the thruaxle? If not which ones did you get for the frame and fork?


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

BrianBak said:


> Hi Racing snake
> 
> Did it include the thruaxle? If not which ones did you get for the frame and fork?


Although I ordered spare rear TA dropouts the axle itself wasn't included. I haven't bought one yet as I'm using standard QR hubs to begin with. Should I move to TA I'll have to purchase a TA for it. I think that they are about €30-40 for a Shimano type.

Availability of a rear TA release wasn't actually something I asked about when purchasing from Ican, I'd always assumed that they were an aftermarket item.

The fork supplied is QR only. Thats not to say that Ican don't have a TA version available. If you read my previous posts you'll see why I ordered QR, but later TA rear spares also.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

BrianBak said:


> Hi Racing snake
> 
> Did it include the thruaxle? If not which ones did you get for the frame and fork?


I ordered a TA fork for my mountain bike and I asked them about the axle. They offered to throw in one for $17.

Works fine for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

jkidd_39 said:


> I ordered a TA fork for my mountain bike and I asked them about the axle. They offered to throw in one for $17.
> 
> Works fine for me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Presume you bought a rigid fork model then? (i.e. they don't sell suspension forks, or do they?)

Not to go too far off the OP topic, but which one did you go for? Are you happy with it? If this Cx frame works out well I'll probably buy a 29er from them next year too. They sent a catalog with this order and there is an 'X6' model in it that looks nice.

I've fitted some bits in the last few days. Calipers on, front mech, crown race to fork. Fork lower crown base had been chased by the factory, but I had to lightly sand the thread trail left by the tool to fit the crown race ring. When I say 'sand' I mean just very lightly remove any uneven surfaces. I left the actual area where the ring will rest alone for the proper inteferance fit. Lower headtube bearing surface also needed one or two areas to be sanded where a dot of material was raised. Otherwise the bearing fit was too tight.

I'm just waiting on handlebars now to progress any further.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

I ordered the 29er 480 a2c rigid fork for my mountain bike/cx bike. I live in a ubber rocky area so I'm getting beat up pretty bad on mtb trails but I'm loving it for cx. I got that same catalog. I think I'm gonna get a real cx bike and rock there carbon hoops. Then I will go gears n suspension on my mtb bike.









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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

jkidd_39 said:


> I ordered the 29er 480 a2c rigid fork for my mountain bike/cx bike. I live in a ubber rocky area so I'm getting beat up pretty bad on mtb trails but I'm loving it for cx. I got that same catalog. I think I'm gonna get a real cx bike and rock there carbon hoops. Then I will go gears n suspension on my mtb bike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool, in hindsight I should have ordered the carbon rims too, perhaps bar and stem also. Next time!  A very well respected shop here in Dublin also seems to be ordering the carbon rims in for customers (though tubs only). Not sure if they are Ican or other but it does give me confidence to order and use some myself, if only for Cx racing. The shop isn't currently ordering clinchers, doesn't like the idea of knocking the carbon hooks off curbs, boards etc. But I know of one or two guys running carbon clinchers on their MTB's without issue.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

So, anyone got hands on FM285?
Because I'm going to order it if it's really a thru-axle frameset.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

When I last contacted Miraclebikes a couple weeks ago I asked this question (among others):

- "Do you know if the FM285 is still intended for production?"

and her response was:

--- "sorry there only newest cyclocross frame MC-286, sorry the frame MC-285 have not product. we will sell MC-286 in the future"

I am not sure if she was saying that they don't have the MC285 and/or aren't making it now, or if she meant they weren't going to make it period, though that was my intended query. Nevertheless, as far as I can discern, the FM285 does not exist.

The FM286 (or MC286, or HF286, etc., all the same frame, different seller, same manufacturer) is the one that Racing snake bought, and as far as I can tell, the only one that is being sold by Chinese sellers.

I am still not sure if I am going to purchase it yet. I am buying the last pieces I need this week for the full build (11sp crankset and thru axle (convertible) hubs/spokes). I am not a big fan of the shallow head angle and highish bottom bracket of the frame, but it is otherwise very nice. I may move up a couple sizes for a better geo, from a 50 to 54, but I wanted the smaller size for easier technical maneuvering.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

That brings me to a question I have:

I had never ridden a cross bike up until a few months ago when we bought my GF a new bike. We took it on a trail that was a bit more technical than a proper cross trail and she struggled a bit; so much so she got off her bike and started walking. (She didn't want to do the "carrying thing"). Anyways, we swapped bikes, she to my XC and I took her bike for a spin.

She is pretty tiny at 5'2" and her bike is a 48 (with 515 top tube). I raised the seat up (though I hardly used it) and went balls out. The technical stuff was *SO MUCH FUN!!!* Flying down hills was so much fun, climbing was a _breeze_. Most everything was a lot harder and slower than my MTB, but it was honestly the most fun I've had on a bike since my BMX days.

Riding her bike made me think something smaller would be better (~525 top tube). Her bike is not the most comfortable for road riding (though it isn't awful), but I can really rip on the trail. I only have the one cross bike for experience however. Something properly sized for me on the road might be fine on the trails. I am not sure how much to attribute the fun I have on her bike to the size. Does anyone who has more cross experience have any suggestions on this? Should I go with the smaller frame with geometry I am not happy with (by the numbers) or get one more my size?

Its important to consider I could give two figs for cross racing, I just want to have fun on the trails, get a little crazy on technical (I want to feel like I can just whip the bike around, on trails more like AM than cross, which is why I'm thinking smaller), and decent road/gravel riding for exercise and exploration.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

Ah, so MC-286 is the one I was looking for then.

I've just placed an order to Miracle Bikes as the pictures they sent me was indeed thru-axle front and back. Let's see what happens.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

I would make sure that you specify a thru axle fork. That may not be necessary, but some of the pics have the front thru axle, and some don't. Also, Racing snake's did not come with that (though he ordered from Hongfu, not miraclebikes, and did not want it from what he said).

Also, how much did it cost you?


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Also, does it come with axles to fit the frame? If not, which ones do you plan to use?


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

My MC-286 was about USD 600 from Miracle. I still have not received it yet, but I am willing to post the details once I get it.

The pictures they gave me had indeed thru-axle front and rear, and I am hoping that's what I will actually receive.

For axles, their spec says that it has 100x15 front and 142x12 rear. It does not say whether it comes with axles. Instead, I'm planning to build a wheelset with Novatec D771SB/D772SB-11 and corresponding axles unless there are any other reasonable option.

I hope the wheelset can also fit my other disc road which has MTB-like 135x9 quick release, just by swapping sidecaps.

Can't wait.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

Finally received the frameset. Still haven't built it, but overall quality looks much higher than my expectation. I don't notice of any visible flaws.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

pandaxpress said:


> Finally received the frameset. Still haven't built it, but overall quality looks much higher than my expectation. I don't notice of any visible flaws.


Pics plz!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

I ordered from Ican Bikes Slyver, not Hongfu. And no, you are correct TA wasn't really a concern. I've done 400km on it by now, Cx race, road, even MTB trails and I really don't see the requirement for TA front (although it would be cool). I couldn't say the same for my MTB, TA is a requirement there.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> Finally received the frameset. Still haven't built it, but overall quality looks much higher than my expectation. I don't notice of any visible flaws.


I understand your excitement! Enjoy the build!


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

MC-286 detail pics if you are interested:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gxc4fexyqq5jh47/AAC5as7LG5LqycYDRQdpgwsaa?dl=0


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

That looks really nice. Thank you.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> MC-286 detail pics if you are interested:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gxc4fexyqq5jh47/AAC5as7LG5LqycYDRQdpgwsaa?dl=0


Great pics pandaexpress!

I confirm that it MC-286 is identical to my AC109. Also the vendors 'Ican' and 'Miracle' appear to be the same. When I was having issues getting mine delivered from Ican I received a call from Miracle bikes to assist. Whether either actually makes the frameset...I'm unsure.

Just some other points to note pandaexpress, or anyone else that may be interested.

You were lucky to have yours delivered with the internal cable sleeves inserted. Mine did not come with any at all making the cabling something of an effort. Make sure to request them if you plan to purchase, they are very difficult to source and I just fitted mine without them. I routed the rear brake cable with a full outer.

I requested BB86, yours is BSA. For those that want BB86 I would possibly advise against it. While one side went in with the usual interferance fit the other went in almost by hand. This suggests either the tolerances are a bit slack or possibly the BB I used (Shimano), was also out of tolerance. Too tight and the bearings don't last long. Too slack and they may creak in the BB shell. Having said this mine has been fine so far and I have a Loctite product that can bridge the gap should the loose side give problems. Long story made short = BSA would be safer.

Other build notes;

Fork crown; had been faced by manufacturer but the tool left a thread making it difficult to fit. I sanded the area ever so slightly and it went on fine.

Bottom 1.5 bearing; a headset was supplied with mine but it was a tigher then normal fit. A few dots of uneven frame bearing seat needed to be removed (by sanding really lightly)

Downtube cable inserts; while its easy to insert a cable outer into the metal inlets the hole behind the one for the brake cable was too small to allow the cable to pass. I had to sand it out about 0.5mm (the frame itself). Only then could the cable be inserted without becoming damaged. (I used Shimano brake cable)

Front mech cable; I'd recommend fitting an inline adjuster after the handlebar tape/before the frame inlet. Otherwise it can be difficult to tension the cable correctly. You probably all know this, but this is my first internal cabled frame.

Steerer preload; Mine came with an Ican headset including expander type preload fitting. I've yet to find the correct torque for this. As I've only had star nuts before on alloy steerers I'm gradually increasing the torque but it always seems to come a bit loose. If anyone can offer advise (thats you pandaexpress!  ) please let me know. I'm nervous about overtightening it with the carbon steerer. Ican were hesitant to offer a torque setting.

Bottle bolts; yours came with some, mine didn't. :-(

Alloy dropouts: Be sure to tighten them before use, mine became loose after 150k

Thats it, hope this information assists with your build, or others with theirs. Lovely bike this frame makes, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of yours pandaexpress!?


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

Racing snake said:


> I've yet to find the correct torque for this. As I've only had star nuts before on alloy steerers I'm gradually increasing the torque but it always seems to come a bit loose. If anyone can offer advise (thats you pandaexpress!  ) please let me know.


8nm is typically stated for pre-load torque for installing expanders in carbon steer tubes. Not specific to your frame, but Enve has a video


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

ms6073 said:


> 8nm is typically stated for pre-load torque for installing expanders in carbon steer tubes. Not specific to your frame, but Enve has a video


8nm! Ok, much higher then a starnut then. I'll have a go at it again, thanks for your help ms6073 ;-)

Edit; oh its only 8nm for the internal wedge, top cap nm would be similar to that of a starnut type headset.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I've been trading emails with "Jenny" (or so she/he claims to be!) at Miracle Bikes and, although it's clear that English is not their primary language, have been very happy so far. 

I'm about a week from commiting to the frame (MC-286) w/ the intent of having them paint it a single color (adds $50) and ship it to Colorado. 
It'll be done up as a thru axle single speed cross bike w/ TRP Hylex disc brakes. Totaly weird bike that won't get used enough to justify it but for several trip/rides a year, it'll be absolutly perfect. 

Thanks to Panda's photos, some of my final questions ae answered. I think I can mod the frame enough to use internal hydro routing though might need to splice two lines together. 

Here's what I've learned. 
$480 for frame/fork, $100 or so to ship to the USA, $50 for single color paint. 
$15 for a headset. $30 for thru axles. Rear drops can be either TA or a standard QR (if you've read to this point, that's not news)
About 2 weeks lead time (though that may be optimistic)
Their YS Paint site is a pain. Too many color options and not user friendly. 
But, it's what they offer and it'll do. 

I've wasted too many emails to her and she always replies quickly and usually answers all my questions. 

So thanks- this thread has provided good info. 

Panda- Any thoughts on how to run a full length internal hydro hose thru that frame? I figured w/ some possible drilling and screwing around and it could work. 
Am I wrong?

I'm interested in using the WTB Nano 40 tire. Would a 40 be too fat?
And- More photos please! Of any or all of them. 

Thanks everyone. Buying unseen and unknown is never comfy but your posts have helped. 

-JCB


----------



## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

I am a little too busy and still yet to build it... but thanks Racing snake for very valuable advice! I'm feeling very confident now.



Racing snake said:


> ... and I just fitted mine without them. I routed the rear brake cable with a full outer.
> 
> Downtube cable inserts; while its easy to insert a cable outer into the metal inlets the hole behind the one for the brake cable was too small to allow the cable to pass. I had to sand it out about 0.5mm (the frame itself). Only then could the cable be inserted without becoming damaged. (I used Shimano brake cable)


Actually, I am yet to decide whether I should go full outer with my rear cable disc brake. Last time when I built a fully internal disc brake frameset with a pair of cable disc brake, the friction was awful even when I cover the internal cable with something just look like those sleeves (Shimano part ID: Y80098100).

Maybe it was due to bad frame design..., but I'm also feeling it might be just safer to fit a *compressionless* outer all the way to the rear.



Racing snake said:


> Steerer preload; Mine came with an Ican headset including expander type preload fitting. I've yet to find the correct torque for this. As I've only had star nuts before on alloy steerers I'm gradually increasing the torque but it always seems to come a bit loose. If anyone can offer advise (thats you pandaexpress!  ) please let me know. I'm nervous about overtightening it with the carbon steerer. Ican were hesitant to offer a torque setting.


I haven't built it so I can't tell much about this one but with my other Chinese full carbon steerer, I was scared of it coming loose during a ride so I made it a bit tight (in my opinion)

Basically, I ...:

(1) Degrease and clean the steerer in and out very carefully
(2) Put some carbon assembly compounds in and out: tacx.com - Carbon assembly compound
(3) Stack spacers, stem etc. and tighten it to about 5nm
(4) Ensure there's no loose space between the spacers, stem and the plug cap by moving my bike back and forward while pulling the front brake and putting some pressure on the handlebar from the top.
(5) Tighten it further to about 8nm

and I ride very confidentlly. 



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> ...


Congrats on your build! Any pics of yours?


----------



## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Haven't ordered it yet but will keep you posted.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

JCB,

I somehow thought you've already built it. 
Anyways, I believe the hydraulic hose should fit (with some work that method Racing snake menthoned) as I think the diameter of regular brake cables and hydro hoses are the same?

I am interested in running hydro but personally I am not sure if I'm a fan of those tall levers...


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Ha! I thought that was just me. 
Those tall STI levers are about as ugly as a thud buster was back when. 
And yes- function should trump the look, I know I know. 
But- I'd like to see that shape change a bit too.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> JCB,
> 
> I somehow thought you've already built it.
> Anyways, I believe the hydraulic hose should fit (with some work that method Racing snake menthoned) as I think the diameter of regular brake cables and hydro hoses are the same?
> ...


Regarding the diameter of the hoses, as far as I can see from my different bikes (for Shimano at least) the cable hoses are wider then hydro type. Perhaps this is why I had issue fitting mine in that Ican (read Miracle too) intended for the frame to accept hydro only. The mods I did were the difference between fitting each type. In fact, it was more because of the metal insert/guide rather then the frame in that the angle of insert was very shallow. Notice I don't call it a cable stop too, because it isn't (on mine at least). It actually wouldn't accomodate a non-full outer brake set-up. I ran my outer under the BB, it helps if you leave the BB fitting until last so you have some access through the shell holes for fitting/routing.

Most of us here run back brake/left side, the frame insert also being on the left, which was a little awkward, but its the same on most bikes, just tigher cable turn on a road bike/road bars.

I eventually sorted the steerer too, 8nm on the expander plug and quite a bit of nm (far more then a star nut) on the top cap bolt. Did top cap by feel rather then specific torque, and the bars still rotate nicely. Raced it again yesterday and it was perfect!


----------



## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Just to add, it really is only just the smallest bit of work to fit it. I just removed like 0.5mm at an angle similar to the brake outer. Really easy, and perhaps just my frame required it, yours could be fine.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Just two quick pics I have on the phone.

Bar tape is temporary, I can't decide on a colour. Still playing with stem lengths. Pic in the house, if you think the frame finish looks odd its because the frame has Muc-off water disperser sprayed all over the frame after the race/bike wash yesterday. Seat collar is an old broken one I had off a previous Canyon road bike.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Racing snake said:


> View attachment 946846
> View attachment 946847
> 
> 
> ...


What brand is the seatpost? I like it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

jkidd_39 said:


> What brand is the seatpost? I like it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's an Easton EC90, the new 2014 version which encloses the bolts more. I have the previous version which I use for XC racing on the MTB but it was a 30.9. The Ican frame takes a 27.2 :-( so I had to buy the newer one.

I'm a big fan of the Easton products (especially the carbon), using the stems and bars also on both those bikes in the picture.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks Snake. 
I anticipate that the Hylex hoses will slip through w/o too much hassle. I just hope they are long enough. 
There are ways to have long long hoses but it's something I"d like to avoid. 
It's good to see w/ the blue tape. I was considering (since it'll be SS) going w/ a blue F ring and blue tape. But as it's a budget build that's about all the options I'm willing to color up. Although if I have to extend the hoses.... The Goodridge hoses come in blue. Hm.....

Wait.... Aren't I supposed to be Christmas shopping?


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

I just bought the frame with custom painting and are planning to install the new Shimano ST-RS685 + BR-RS785 Hydraulic Disc when it arrive. Will there be any challenges with these hoses ?



Rgs


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I haven't found anyone that knows for certain yet how your Shimano brakes will work but...

It sounds like, from those that know the most, that with minimal work- they will work.

You may need to modify the frame where the hoses enters and exits.

You may also find that the hoses Shimano supplies with the kit are too short to travel all the way down the down tube, under the BB, and thru the chain stay to the caliper. 
But there are answers for that too.

I haven't ordered my frame so you will have your answers before me. 
Please keep us posted.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> I just bought the frame with custom painting and are planning to install the new Shimano ST-RS685 + BR-RS785 Hydraulic Disc when it arrive. Will there be any challenges with these hoses ?
> 
> Rgs


That will be really nice. Its actually what I wanted but they weren't available at the time.

Regarding install challenges, I imagine Shimano will use the same high power hydro hose they utilise on the MTB brakes. Its a little thicker then the cable-type outer, so yes there could be some issue on the downtube insert but its pretty easy to modify. When you remove the metal insert just be sure not to fully un-screw the bolt. If you do you will have to retreive the loose receiving side from inside the downtube. Its do-able but frustrating. You can remove/install the metal insert with the bolt 9/10ths loosened, which is finicky...but easier.

The exist point won't be an issue as it is a different insert (plastic/nylon on mine). The outlet is big enough to accomodate any type/brand of hose IMO.

I'd be sure Shimano will supply a full length hose long enough for an XL bike too, just like the MTB kits. Those come installed and bled, but with so many road bikes now having internal cabling I wonder are they supplied the same on the road bike kits? If not you'll have to disconnect, drain or plug the outlet, fit, cut to size if required, refit to caliper, and bleed. Hopefully the latter process is as easy as on the M785 brakes.

Standard rotor size is 160mm by the way.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice write up Snake. 
Thanks. 
That little bit about not unscrewing the bits too far- that'll save me some time.


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

Thanks for advises! Does anyone have any suggestion for an cx/road wheel set for this frame. Ideally 142x12 rear. I did order both standard QR and thru axle rear derailleur just to be safe.

I found an interesting pair in DT Swiss R24 Spline DB and DT Swiss R23 Spline DB but these aren't released until mid of march what I've heard.

Second option is Mavic Aksium One which front can be converted to front thru axle, rear still QR but it's available to order.

Little over my budget.....
2014 New Design! Farsports Light Wide Cyclocross 38mm Clincher 25mm Wide Carbon U Shape Wheels, View U shape wheels, FARSPORTS/OEM/ODM Product Details from Xiamen Far Sports Industry And Trade Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

Rgs


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> Thanks for advises! Does anyone have any suggestion for an cx/road wheel set for this frame. Ideally 142x12 rear. I did order both standard QR and thru axle rear derailleur just to be safe.
> 
> I found an interesting pair in DT Swiss R24 Spline DB and DT Swiss R23 Spline DB but these aren't released until mid of march what I've heard.
> 
> ...


-What is your budget?
-Are you running 10 or 11speed?
-Would you be adverse to getting a set built?


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

Racing snake said:


> -What is your budget?
> -Are you running 10 or 11speed?
> -Would you be adverse to getting a set built?


Aiming to buy complete wheel set for around 350 Euro. I plan to run shimanos new 5800 series 11-speed. I'm not sure if Shimano ST-RS685 is backward compatibility with 10-speed ?

Rgs


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> Aiming to buy complete wheel set for around 350 Euro...


11s is compatible with 10s wheelset as long as you use 11s sprockets but remove the lowest cog and put enough spacer to tighten the sprockets. I used to do this on my budget wheelset and 5800 levers/sprockets.

Anyway, if I were on a budget, I'll get either:
* Shimano's RX-series wheelsets such as WH-RX31 which is compatible with road 11s and it's very affordable, or...
* A custom wheelset built around Shimano's MTB hubs such as XT which is definitely 10s so I'll need to make 11s into 10s

Personally, I'm getting a thru-axle wheelset built around Novatec's D771/D772SB with those Pillar spokes from one of those Chinese shops soon, but if I had enough budget, I'll get something built around DT Swiss/Sapim CX-Ray.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Well the Christmas shopping is behind me. Now I can look more closely at the budget to see if I should swing this project. 
Mostly replying just to keep this thread alive and near the top until I have a frame to show you all!


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

Racing snake said:


> View attachment 946846
> View attachment 946847
> 
> 
> What brake calipers did you go with?


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

c1gary said:


> Racing snake said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 946846
> ...


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

My temporary build:









I had no problem with fitting mechanical brake cable outer.
Overall build experience was great. No problem at all!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Great looking bike Panda. So blacked out. 
That is the CX frame right? Looks just fine w/ the skinny tires. 

I'm still on the fence about a color. The palate they sent me helps but I'm just not yet there. The more snow I shovel, the less inclined I am to complete my order. That'll change soon enough thouhg. Spring always gets around to us quikly, even if late.


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Great looking bike Panda. So blacked out.
> That is the CX frame right? Looks just fine w/ the skinny tires.
> 
> I'm still on the fence about a color. The palate they sent me helps but I'm just not yet there. The more snow I shovel, the less inclined I am to complete my order. That'll change soon enough thouhg. Spring always gets around to us quikly, even if late.


Here is my finished paint job. Frame is now shipped.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

n1x0n said:


> View attachment 955148


Looks better with painting IMO!


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> My temporary build:
> 
> View attachment 954923
> 
> ...


Looks great, I like the white bar tape, glad you didn't have the hose fitting issue. Is there no hose clip tab on the rear of your fork? Perhaps it is just the photo, but I can't see one. Also, is that a 56cm frame or bigger?


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

That looks super, it will be even better in the flesh as the camera they use is poor. So, did you send them a render of how you wanted it painted or did they suggest this?

Edit: @N1X0N


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Just a quick update for you all. I know mud clearance was being discussed earlier in the thread. So this information may assist in component choice to avoid issues;

I competed in our national champoinships at the weekend. Like most events it was held in a park. I know we encounter different types of mud and I have to say that this one was the worst yet. It was the type that had grass and leafs but no stone in it which aided it to stick, the type that sticks to the bike and not even fling up onto legs. Unlike half of the other competitiors I only had one bike which was a serious disadvantage. Anyway, three laps in I had turbo trainer levels of resistance building lap after lap. By lap 5 I had to stop at the top of a run-up to clear mud (for 15-20 seconds, doh) from the chainstays as the rear wheel was almost locked up while riding (absolutely locked up while remounting the bike). It seems that while using a Cx chainset with compact rings that dictate a lower front mech, that this started the issue. Mud would gather as normal on the stay, but the cable and mech were basically feeding the clumps of mud at a high rate into the tyre and stay. At this point I also lost ability to shift into the big ring.

So what I intend to do for next season is to run a deep section rim and slightly thinner tyre to prevent this happening again. The Clement PDX I use is 33c, but actually measures 38cm width. I know a single ring up front would also be a great solution as I use it on the MTB, but I want to retain the bike for road use also which I find it is great for.

On the flip side, riders with canti brakes also had problems with extraordinary levels of mud and clag gathering. The weight of the bikes afterwards was staggering!

Check out the attached image of the wear to the right side of the tyre and the rim decals! The clearance on the front fork wasn't great either, but not because of width. The mud actually gathered above the tyre into the top of the fork, causing resistance, but nowhere as bad as the rear.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

N1-
What did the extra paint job cost you? I had intended to paint the entire frame one color. That'd be $50 USD. What did the two tone cost?
And- It looks great please don't forget those of us on the fence. When it shows up, get photos of it unbuilt, and built. Please. 
Is there a gloss area near the top cup of the headtube?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Mud clearance issues eh? I think most of the bikes I have might have had some sort of sticky mud issues. But, I can't imagine the chainstays would take too long to sustain some real permanent damage.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Some didn't during the race, notably Giants TCX and Focus Mares, though they still loaded up in other areas meaning a second bike would be required to remain at the sharp end.

Thankfully frame damage is minimal, just scraped a little from pieces of wood/twigs or whatever. Possibly an advantage over a painted version, though I like the look of both. A tyre blowout could have happened too I guess, the sidewall has the carcass appearing, as would be typical on a MTB.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

A spare or two bikes for race day?
Really? That's what has become of the sport? Spares for a niche shoulder season sport? 
Count me out please.

But, I'll happily reap the rewards of those high end type pedalers. I'll go w/ discs, thru axles, and lighter parts. 
I'll just point them in other places. Like huge long gravel tours w/ friends. Not too different I suppose from how CX racers do it. Riding bikes w/ friends can take many shapes.

I'm intending to build it up SS, and I know (in my heart) that's its not a good use for the frame. SS mountain seems to work well much of the time. SS road seems like to large a window to bridge w/ only one gear. 
If I ever decide on a color (I'm wanting to determine which looks the most like Ti, as a joke), you'll see my photos on here. 
This SS, TA, C, CX, Disc bizarro faux Ti project has got to be executed, or binned already!

Speaking of that.
Which looks more/less Ti to you all?














If you believe neither do, we're in the same boat. 
And I'm now stuck wondering what color to go w/. 
It's snowing. 
I'm going for a run before the cabin fever further erodes my sanity.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

@Racing snake

Yeah it might be difficult to see it from the photo but there's a tab- If you notice the white tie-wrap on the left of the fork, that's where it is. I put white just because I didn't have any black one at the moment.

The size is 58cm. I think 60-61cm (note: Miracle doesn't make 60) would have been my perfect fit but I'm also feeling that smaller frames make it easier for technical maneuverers?

By the way, mine ended up quite heavy like ~8.7kg (~19.2lbs) and probably a bit more after I swap for 35C tires/pedals. How much does/do yours weigh?


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

@Johnny Chicken
Paintjob 50$

@Racing snake 
They sent me an example drawing which i modified a bit. 
Without any really tools I tried to improvise a drawing in windows paint with pictures, arrows and colors from other bikes plus my own ideas and explained as well as I could.
Jenny who was my contact person was very helpful. For every modification I requested her designer drew an example and I had to confirm it.

I can't really count the amount of mails I sent back and forward to get this correct.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> Yeah it might be difficult to see it from the photo but there's a tab- If you notice the white tie-wrap on the left of the fork, that's where it is. I put white just because I didn't have any black one at the moment.
> 
> The size is 58cm. I think 60-61cm (note: Miracle doesn't make 60) would have been my perfect fit but I'm also feeling that smaller frames make it easier for technical maneuverers?
> 
> By the way, mine ended up quite heavy like ~8.7kg (~19.2lbs) and probably a bit more after I swap for 35C tires/pedals. How much does/do yours weigh?


I was thinking it might be 58cm, but the saddle was quite high so I was then thinking that it might be a 56. Wow, you must be really tall? 6'4"-6'5"?

Smaller frames would be lighter. Not sure about the handling, its a personal thing, depends on how it feels to you. In MTB a lot of the DH guys are moving to larger frames for more cockpit maneuverability. In Enduro they are doing the same but using shorter stems. Height-wise some of us just get caught between two frame sizes and either could have benefits or drawbacks.

I haven't had a chance to weigh mine yet. It feels light, but I'm sure it will be heavier then a similar canti version.The only heavy parts I could improve on are the 105 shifters, the bars (but I'm not pushed for 40gram savings) and the hubs. Tub specced wheels could go either way if I get a high profile rim as discussed recently.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

A 19.2lb disc cross bike is heavy? 
I'd love such a heavy bike!


----------



## OnThaCouch (Oct 2, 2010)

Sub'd. Looking for a "do-it-all" bike w/discs, thru-axles, and wide tires. Looks like these fit the bill :thumbsup:. 

Where the best place to pick one of these up for a reasonable price? The link I clicked through looks like it has a 3 frame minimum order.

Coming from the mtb side of things, I am not too familiar with what is out there as far as road/cyclocross hydro brakes and wheelsets with a 142 rear & F/R thru-axle. Can someone kindy point me in the right direction? 

Thanks in advance .


----------



## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Are you planning on running gears?
And of so- what shifters?
Both Shimano and SRAM make a hydro road shift/brake lever. 
If you want to go with cable brakes and hydro calipers- TRP makes a cable to hydro caliper. Spyre maybe?
I'm intending in making it SS and will use the TRP Hylex brake, then add some Frankenstein way to add a shifter for geared use. 
Paul makes an adapter to fit a mountain shifter on a road bar. 
And Microshift (I think) makes slick bar end shifters. 
Long answer sorry.


----------



## OnThaCouch (Oct 2, 2010)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Are you planning on running gears?
> And of so- what shifters?
> Both Shimano and SRAM make a hydro road shift/brake lever.
> If you want to go with cable brakes and hydro calipers- TRP makes a cable to hydro caliper. Spyre maybe?


Thanks for the quick response.

Since this would basically be a build from the ground up, I am not particular to any brand.

Definitely running gears....this would be my all-around rig (gravel grinding, road, cyclocross, etc.). Everything else my mtb/fat bike can't cover.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

It seems like the Shimano systems are generally assumed to be the best brakes. 
(typed w/ the full knowledge that I don't know road so great)
W/ that in mind, I'd say you should go Shimano. Also typed knowing that SRAM had that recall. 

My distant hope is that the wireless idea will finally take hold and I'll be able to just slap two buttons somewhere on the bars and control the shifts that way. 
Shimano's two button system on the current gen XTR really seems to answer the question. 

This frame as a SS will be perfect for about 9 rides a year. 
So I suppose I should anticipate adding gears somehow sooner than later. 
It'll be used for a few bike pack tours right off the bat so.... WTF am I wanting a SS again for?


----------



## Sleeveless (Nov 18, 2006)

I might have missed it, but do we have some definitive tire clearances for this frame? Pictures and rim specs would be great.


----------



## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Sleeveless said:


> I might have missed it, but do we have some definitive tire clearances for this frame? Pictures and rim specs would be great.


Heres a pic of mine. ZTR Iron Cross & Clement PDX 33c (38mm actual width) Dont mind the side clearance, every camera angle made it look off. I.e its a bit better then it looks.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

pandaxpress said:


> My temporary build:
> 
> View attachment 954923
> 
> ...


I meant to ask, how does it ride as a road bike with those wheels and tyres versus Cx tyres? Would you notice any difference to a regular road bike?


----------



## Sleeveless (Nov 18, 2006)

Racing snake said:


> Heres a pic of mine. ZTR Iron Cross & Clement PDX 33c (38mm actual width) Dont mind the side clearance, every camera angle made it look off. I.e its a bit better then it looks.
> View attachment 955841


Thanks so much. How many mm would you estimate on either side in that pic? Enough for mud clearance, or enough for a 40c?


----------



## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Room enough for the (by CX standards) balloon like WTB Nano 40?
Sorry... I'm doing that thing where I ask online for someone to provide an impossible answer. 

Please disregard my question. But have a nice day. 

On a side note- Thanks for keeping this thread going. 
I'll be ordering my frame today from the she/he or whomever that calls themselves "Jenny". 
-JCB


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

N1Xon-
Do you know if Miracle is able to use ALL the colors on the YS site that Jenny sends out?

There's way too many to make choosing easy, but I suppose if I put enough time into the project, i might be able to find just the right match.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Sleeveless said:


> Thanks so much. How many mm would you estimate on either side in that pic? Enough for mud clearance, or enough for a 40c?


About 5mm each side I'd say. Across the widest part of thread its approx 47 or 48mm from stay to stay.


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> N1Xon-
> Do you know if Miracle is able to use ALL the colors on the YS site that Jenny sends out?
> 
> There's way too many to make choosing easy, but I suppose if I put enough time into the project, i might be able to find just the right match.


I'm not sure, have you asked Jenny ?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes. 
Jenny, in her cryptic way, said that some are and some aren't available. That I should send her ideas and she can tell me what possible.


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## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

Racing snake said:


> I meant to ask, how does it ride as a road bike with those wheels and tyres versus Cx tyres? Would you notice any difference to a regular road bike?


I just went for a first ride yesterday and today for about 120km altogether. I came from road and I consider myself a hobby cyclist who rarely rides competitively, but enjoys local ride events often and likes to climb a lot.

With that wheelset (along with road pedals,) it just felt like a regular road bike, rather good one. No awkward flexes during high torque climbs, no strange vibrations under high speed downhills, etc. Handling was fairly solid and stable too.

However, something I noticed probably specific to my build is that 58cm was a bit compact for my physique (I'm about 6.3 feet and my other bikes are 60cm+) and that it is not very light as in the road bike standard.

Still a good bike to me though. I gotta try CX sets as I'm new to itself!


----------



## pandaxpress (Nov 14, 2014)

OnThaCouch said:


> Where the best place to pick one of these up for a reasonable price? The link I clicked through looks like it has a 3 frame minimum order.
> 
> Coming from the mtb side of things, I am not too familiar with what is out there as far as road/cyclocross hydro brakes and wheelsets with a 142 rear & F/R thru-axle. Can someone kindy point me in the right direction?


Have you tried contacting Miracle Bikes directly?

They also have the axles that fit the frame and fork. Unless you already have ones that you know they fit, it's easier to just buy them together.

About a wheel set, I'm in no position to give you an advise but I think it depends on your budget. If you are on a budget, the most affordable ones I can think of is to ask your LBS to build one using MTB hubs.

NOTE: Earlier I mentioned Shimano has affordable CX wheel set, but I realized that they are 9mm QR only.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Couch-
I'm in a similar place. I know the world of dirt well, not so much the world of road. And CX is only cloudy in the dim areas of my brain. 
My old haggard CX bike (Salsa) has done some great trips (Great Divide, Iceland, lots of USA touring) and all w/ road rims. It's been on singletrack that it should never have been on, and the wheels did wonderfully. 

But I"m sitting on a pair of Stans Arch rims that'll be the Miracle build up if I ever get around to ordering it, or more accurately- if I ever get around to deciding on color. 

If I had any choice of all rims, I'd still probably go Stans. That way, the wheels can play doublel duty on mountain bikes in a pinch. And not the iron cross rims from Stans. From what I've read, they require too low a pressure to be versatile. 

I've seen a great DT hub (the 350) sold as a 15mm thru front, laced to a WTB rim, for about $100. Seems like a good start. But I can't find the matching rear, at least not for cheap.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Jan 4, 2008)

Racing snake said:


> Just a quick update for you all. I know mud clearance was being discussed earlier in the thread. So this information may assist in component choice to avoid issues;
> 
> I competed in our national champoinships at the weekend. Like most events it was held in a park. I know we encounter different types of mud and I have to say that this one was the worst yet. It was the type that had grass and leafs but no stone in it which aided it to stick, the type that sticks to the bike and not even fling up onto legs. Unlike half of the other competitiors I only had one bike which was a serious disadvantage. Anyway, three laps in I had turbo trainer levels of resistance building lap after lap. By lap 5 I had to stop at the top of a run-up to clear mud (for 15-20 seconds, doh) from the chainstays as the rear wheel was almost locked up while riding (absolutely locked up while remounting the bike). It seems that while using a Cx chainset with compact rings that dictate a lower front mech, that this started the issue. Mud would gather as normal on the stay, but the cable and mech were basically feeding the clumps of mud at a high rate into the tyre and stay. At this point I also lost ability to shift into the big ring.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize you were from Ireland until I read the whole thread. I thought you were talking about the US Nationals, which were also tremendously muddy...


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> I didn't realize you were from Ireland until I read the whole thread. I thought you were talking about the US Nationals, which were also tremendously muddy...


Yep, Dublin, Ireland. Though I doubt either were as muddy the Belgian Nationals were!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nope. 
Haven't ordered it yet. 
I'm still hung up on colors. 
But-I've narrowed it down. Now I'm waiting to hear back from Jenny to see which frame colors are an option thru YS colors. 
I'm down to 12 color options. That all look like Ti. 

I've sent her 20 emails. She's always been quick in her reply. But I would understand if she just kicks me to the curb and says "Go away. You're bothering us here at Miracle."

But I'm getting closer. 
It's late. 
I should sleep more. Ride more. 
And think of this damned bike less.


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

@Johnny Chicken
Frame arrived yesterday, here are some pics with colors.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

N1xon-

Umm... Let me take a minute to properly calm myself before I respond. 
Umm....
SWEET BABY JESUS ITS GORGEOUS!
(that's the toned down version of what I first thought when I saw it)

That slick paintjob was how much?$50? 
Well done. Really well done. 
Is it 3 colors? Or just one color, one bit of raw carbon, and one sliver of gloss carbon? 

It really is a great looking bike. 
From other Miracle bikes I've seen, there's a similarity. Did you come up w/ the entire scheme? Or did Jenny suggest something? 

My intent was to make mine look Ti, then put a stack of old Moots stickers on it. Just to eff w/ the Moots diciples that have mathcing shorts/Audi/Jersey/Wife... All labeled Moots. 

Now I'm going to can that idea. I've wasted no small amount of time comparing YS Colors million variants of grey. 
And after seeing yours, well I really like it and new options are flooding my addled brain.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

OH-
What scheme did you go w/ on the fork?


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

@Johnny Chicken
I was also a bit suprised how well made the paintjob was for only 50$ extra. Black colour is matt black, don't know if this is raw carbon or painted...guess it's painted. Top tube color is black glossy. So it's really 3 colours. Fork is also matt black.

I first used pantone colour chart to choose colours but miracle only had YS. They didn't really tell my the exact matt colour of black but guess it's stadard colour they using. For the matt red it's YS-706.

Jenny did sent me an example design, I mainly changed the rear design and some in the front and colour. Can post the original picture from Jenny if you want.


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## Gee-Moment (Apr 20, 2006)

Been watchin this thread with interest as I'm torn between something like this or a road disc frame. Was edgin towards a pucker road frame but that paintjob alone has swung me back a little. Really nice to see what is possible.

Any more thoughts on the ride on this frame?. Wondering how racy/comfortable it is and whether it'd lend itself to a road commute.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I've got a great Pantone color that I'd like but Jenny (I'm still curious about whether that's even a female, or single person and not a group) can only do the YS colors. 
And man are there ever plenty YS colors. Too many choices really. I've narrowed it down to grey, silver, Ti, some sort of blue, white, or British Green. So that's like 80 options.

Gee- if you're wondering what Miracle can deliver? Here's what Jenny sent me:
????

I'm not sure just how many of these are possible for the frames. Evidently most. 
When I sent her a list of 12 options, she said two could be done right now, and that some of the others could be done, but would take longer. She/He couldn't tell me which colors weren't possible.

Gee-What's a pucker frame?


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

n1x0n said:


> @Johnny Chicken
> Frame arrived yesterday, here are some pics with colors.
> 
> View attachment 957611
> ...


Are you in the USA?

How long did your frame take to get through customs?

Where there any additional charges?

Looks great!


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

I live in Norway. We have to pay additional 25% extra of total value when declaring local VAT. Miracle re-wrote invoice to lower amount, a symbolic value to reduce tax. It took about 3-4 weeks from payment to delivey. This was in the middle of christmas so ordering on normal basis it's properly faster.



c1gary said:


> Are you in the USA?
> 
> How long did your frame take to get through customs?
> 
> ...


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## Gee-Moment (Apr 20, 2006)

Ta Nixon, lots of colours to go at there indeed.

Er "pucker" as in genuine or rather branded road frame.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Almost there...*

If you're reading this, I'm sorry to be offering you yet another "hey, I"m almost ready to order...." posting. 
But this time I mean it. Really. You know I love you.... Did you get a hair cut? You look great. Anyway....

I'm wating for Jenny to make a mock up image of the colors I want. 
I'd like it to look similar to this:








Thanks C1Gary. Your painted frame moved me away from the one color frame I had intended to go w/. 
And if you are looking for beautful ideas? Do a google image search for Vanilla Bikes.

-JCB


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## Boxhaxor (Jan 26, 2015)

I picked up a MC286 from miracle bikes! Still waiting on a couple of parts but I'll post some pictures later.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Box-
Did you decide to go painted? Did Jenny send you any mock up photos? 
Please post anything you've got.


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## Boxhaxor (Jan 26, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Box-
> Did you decide to go painted? Did Jenny send you any mock up photos?
> Please post anything you've got.


Nope, went with matte black.

I'll post pictures soon.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

One more Miracle frame ordered. 
Now I wait and wait.....
Hopefully- it'll look like this:








On a side note- Many are wondering about hubs. 
I've always been a DT fan but they aren't cheap. Not even w/ some sort of a hook up. 
Now and then you can score a 350 for a low price.

I've just heard of these. Have held a pair, and thoght... hmmm Perhaps there is a low cost option that doesn't suck.
NEW Ultralight Disc MTB HUB Rear 12x142mm 12mm Thru Axle 261G 32 Holes | eBay

If I go that route, I might order thru BikeHubStore.com. At least then I'd have a place to complain to if they suck. And still seem cheap. 
Any of you have experience w/ these?
MTB180 Front Disc Hub - QR or 15mm/20mm Thru Axle

-JCB


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

Got one today. Quality is so much better than the open molds of a few years ago. Really great looking frame. I got it in 7 days ordered via eBay.

I did think it would come with threads for the thru axle. I thought my mtbs had threads built in...

Those don't come with thru axles do they? Separate kit?


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

They also snaked some sort of liner through the frame. That will save HOURS of frustration.

I'll be running full housing for whatever I can, but it sort of looks like that could be tough. The bracket on the underside may not take housing, just this liner. What's everyone else doing?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Wow. A week? 
Fantastic. Thanks for the info. 
I ordered thru axles w/ mine. Think it added about $23 for both. 
No threads eh? Weird. Did it come w/ both QR and thru axle dropouts?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I read about a guy that uses dental floss and a shop vac to pull a feeder line thru internal route frames. 
Haven't tried, but it sounded simple.


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

No qr option. Just thru.


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## stevereeneo (Jul 16, 2007)

I've been following for a while as I was thinking about ordering one of these as well.

No threads on the Thru-Axel? Is that for both the fork as well as the frame? So i guess you'll be tapping your own threads? A TA without threads seems like an error... How does the TA stay in? I'd send them a note with close-up pics.

Show us some more pics...

I'm curious what others think about that.

S


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

stevereeneo said:


> I've been following for a while as I was thinking about ordering one of these as well.
> 
> No threads on the Thru-Axel? Is that for both the fork as well as the frame? So i guess you'll be tapping your own threads? A TA without threads seems like an error... How does the TA stay in? I'd send them a note with close-up pics.
> 
> ...


Do not tap the fork! Reach out to the supplier and order a thru axle. It comes with a insert that is threaded.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

From what little I could glean from online photos- their axles came with a "nut" of some sort- that went on the end of the axle.


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

I can snap a picture when I get home of the thru axle assembly if needed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

jkidd_39 said:


> I can snap a picture when I get home of the thru axle assembly if needed
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be super helpful.

Also, anyone know of a company that makes something similar? I'd rather just get something here in the US then get it sent from China.

And lastly, what headset are you all using? I asked them to include one but, alas, they did not.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'll be using some no name turd bucket from Miracle. 
Will let you know how it looks quality wise. 
Cost $15


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Let me know if you need any specific shots. Iirc I beleive the sleeve was tapered so I had to press it in by hand and then throw the wheel in there and let the TA pull the sleeve tight

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

JKidd-
Thanks for taking the time for photos. 
On MTBR I often see folks who intend to take a shot or two, but just don't make the time to. 
I've wondered plenty how Miracle went about doing their thru design. Scoured plenty of photos, but none were very clear. 
Are you using their axles? Or someone elses?
-JCB


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> JKidd-
> Thanks for taking the time for photos.
> On MTBR I often see folks who intend to take a shot or two, but just don't make the time to.
> I've wondered plenty how Miracle went about doing their thru design. Scoured plenty of photos, but none were very clear.
> ...


This is a 480 a2c tapered mtb fork from ican. But they are all the same as far I am concerned. I ordered the axle from them. I think it was $17 for the TA. I thought about ordering a TA front cx fork but I really wanted a 3k weave so I went with a 9mm.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

amd said:


> They also snaked some sort of liner through the frame. That will save HOURS of frustration.
> 
> I'll be running full housing for whatever I can, but it sort of looks like that could be tough. The bracket on the underside may not take housing, just this liner. What's everyone else doing?


You are all lucky, mine didn't come with any inner housing. Indeed it will save you a lot of time! The exception may be the full housing you intend to do. I wrote up about it on this thread a while back if you want to read about how I did it. Perhaps as a startpoint, don't fit the BB until the cabling is completed.


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## Boxhaxor (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm really happy with the apparent quality so far! I ordered some carbon bottle cages and am also very surprised how nice they look.

Just like all of you my fork/frame didnt come threaded... Indeed strange. Ended up ordering axles from them as most of the axles i could find were for threaded frames/forks.

Need to source a few more parts, barrel adjusters for breaks/shifters. And i'm missing a couple of random screws. Hopefully my LBS has everything I need.

I got the BSA bottom bracket, slapped a Shimano and a race face crank. Looking forward to it cranking on this thing.

Sounds like most of you didnt snake full liners through the frame? Or is that the goal with the liner they provided in the frame? *I've never built my own bike... I have full liners for shifters but it seems like it would be easier to just use the provided liner? If I were to use them, do you just cut them to the length of the inside of the frame and leave them inside?

Cheers. I'll take more detailed pictures tomorrow and post them.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Box-
Damn you and those white rims. (scene shot w/ me shaking my fist at a cloudy sky, thunder in the distance)

I'm sitting on some straight Stans Arch rims. They did great on the mountain bikes. So they'll do fine on this. Even if they are more than the doctor ordered. 
But they aren't white. And man- those white look good. 

This entire build is done as a bit of an experiment. I am so used to many brands and parts. Plus I'm sitting on old parts. So I thought, I can do this on the cheap! And really, given that the entire thing will come in at about $1200, it is cheap-ish. 

But white rims.... Hmmm.... 
Now I need to rethink. My original plan was to run use a stripe or two of reflective tape on them. Like an 1" worth on each side of the stem. Help me find the stem in a pinch, and helps cars find me when it's late and I'm cooked and town is still soo soo far away.


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## Boxhaxor (Jan 26, 2015)

They are Velocity Blunt SL's with chris king hubs, also might be a bit much also but gotta have nice shoes on her... 

Toys toys toys....


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## padelsbach (May 15, 2008)

can anyone confirm the bb drop on the ac109/mc286 thru axle frame?

if i read the geo chart below correctly, bb drop is column G. 55mm drop for a size 54 sounds like a terrible ride. just wondering ...

https://g04.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1LZs...S/200295078/HTB1LZsQGpXXXXcsXFXXq6xXFXXXS.jpg


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*It's on it's way*

So far- Custom paint (2 colors) took about 2.5 weeks from order to shipping. 
It added $60 to my final cost.

In my head- I wanted it to look a bit like this:







But that is one beautiful paint job. No way it would match that.

So "Jenny" sent me this:








All in all, not bad. I might add some tape here and there to make it less candy cane like.

And here is what Jenny just sent me. It looks like this:








So far, so good. 
As the build comes together, I'll keep you posted.


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## bcroteau (May 23, 2007)

Wow, that looks pretty good. Are they able to do any logos or decals?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I don't know about decals. (but I have some old ones I'll be using, to the dismay of any proud Moots owner)

I ordered carbon rims from Light-Bicycle last fall for the mtn bikes (buy them, they are great) and there was an option for decals. 
Some Miracle photos show their name so I'd bet they have the skills if you can give them the art and dimensions. 

Then you'd be all set. You could start your own Brand. 
BCROTEAU BIKES doesn't exactly roll off the tongue though.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm on my way to breaking the internet w/ checking the shipping link for my frame. Soon! 

Anyway- Frame owners: What is the correct seat tube diameter for this frame? 
I've seen it listed as 27.2 and 31.6.
Which is accurate?


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

Well after waiting an additional 12 days to get the right axles, they sent one that doesn't seem to be right.









The "pinch" bolt isn't wide enough to bind with the carbon, and its too deep anyway, as it would stick out a decent amount. I ended up flipping it around as the flange braces against the edge, so its not pretty, but works for now.

As for the frame, its great quality. I like the build so far. Just finished it up today after getting the thru axles.









CX1
Roval SL wheels
HyRD brakes

Haven't gotten the weight yet, but feels to be around 18.5 with flat kit. Frame weighed 1220g and the fork 395g uncut in a 19"


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

AMD-
Nice ninja stealth bike. 
Really subtle. 

Those Roval wheels really add some nice subtle highlights. 
Do you know the size of the seatpost? I can't tell from various sources if it's a 27.2 or 31.6mm. 

How are the HYrd brakes?


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

yes, 27.2 seatpost. rode the bike around the block and think the hyrd are going to be something really great. i mainly mtb so going to less braking capabilities on the road is a bummer. i think these will satisfy.


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## Gee-Moment (Apr 20, 2006)

Nice looking builds here chaps. I'm liking the custom paint options and Im again tempted by this but mainly for my road commute. Really interested in some further ride reports if anyone has a few moments to jot down a few thoughts


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

My frame showed up today. I need to work on a decent post about it all but-
3 weeks from ordering to my doorstep. 
Paint is good, though not exceptional, but worth an extra $60. 
F thru axle is a bit dismal. Makes me think the one delivered isn't the best option for this fork. 
MB forgot to include the rear thru axle dropouts so I"m waiting on a reply about that.

But don't mis-read all that. It's amazing. And for the cost- even more so. 
No ride report. Waiting on parts.

Better report to follow as time allows.


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## Gee-Moment (Apr 20, 2006)

Looks sweet JC - My little boy would love the red though I've been staring into space mulling over a real clean looking grey and white version. Something halfway between yours and a niner air maybe!!!

Anyway chop chop get her built!!!.  I need those ride reports, still not sure what to go for at the mo :S


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Gee-
That might just be the kindest way to say I've chosen bad paint. Well, that's how I heard it anyway! But, I also might just agree if that was your intent. Bit too much flash for me but there's a scheme in my head I'm going towards. 
Black bands of reflective tape will help calm it a bit, make it less cat-in-the-hat-ish. 
I jut threw electrical tape on it at each white/red junction. The change is amazing. Looks much less like a candy cane. 
Now... do I put old Moots stickers on it? Or vintage Salsa? Either would be an outright lie but might be good for a laugh.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's the small difference a (poorly done job of) bit electrical tape can do. 
In the end, I'll use a reflective black tape. So it might look a bit more odd, but ultimately make things safer. 








It wasn't my intent to make it look like a snake but... evidently some image from my childhood has sprouted out of my head into this new frame.


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## Gee-Moment (Apr 20, 2006)

Sorry genuinely no offence intended. I love all the subtleties that a different finish can create. I spend far too much time looking at cars and wondering why certain designs were chosen and how they age over time. Tis soo easy to get sucked into all this.... as I slowly am it appears.
As noted just that addition of tape makes quite a difference indeed. I think it looks better in a sense although it does take away some of the simplicity of the initial design. It's all so very subjective tho.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Have you guys had luck figuring out the issues with the front thru axle? It looks like they used the same one from a mtb version with wider dropouts (and a set screw). I just got this fork/axle combo and have similar issues and no response from MB. I don't like the idea of running the nut backwards since you'd be clamping against a very thin bore. I could see that nut mushrooming the carbon (or just straight up cracking).


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I've been turning that fork/axle over in my head for 24 ours now and have no answers. 
I understand exactly what you mean aout the narrow collar. 
The lack of response from MB is disheartening. They sure were there for me before purchase!

All I can offer, for now, is that it seems there's something missing that would clear it all up. Like we'd see the correct axle integration and be like "Oh yea... of course, that works." but instead are fiddling w/ only partially integrated parts. 
When I know more, you all will too. But that'll be a bit. 
GF and I are loading into the VW for riding elsewhere, no MTBR allowed!
-JCB


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Ok, cool - and likewise. I also noticed that the through hole on the nut side is a pretty loose fit, so they must be relying on the nut to locate in the counterbore, otherwise there's going to be play. They really need that axle to fit up like the mtb.

I opened a dispute with them and am trawling other .cn axle suppliers to see if a different version will fit. I'm guessing the road/cross fork is a new addition and they didn't consider that the narrower fork legs would throw off the axle fitment. You'd hope they'd step up and provide a revised axle. In the meantime I'm going to try a knurled washer on the lever side to get the spacing, and then check for play. Putting the nut in backwards is kind of nice because it aligns the axle - but I really don't trust the thin engagement.


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## Docklobster (Jun 17, 2008)

Don't forget they are out because of Chinese new year. Don't expect a response for a week or two.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

CHINESE NEW YEAR!? 
Thank you for that. 

I have sent "Jenny" 3 emails, luckily none were rude though one was being crafted in my head w/ a bit more volume. 

.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

AMD has a F thru axle most like mine. I'm trying to think of a clever way to work around it all. The axle itself is just a shade too long, or the the threaded area is just a hair too short. Either way when I push the F axle's collar into the recess, it will run out of threads before it all gets snug, so perhaps the washer idea on the lever end will do the job. 
But it looks (to me) that the F dropouts are just carbon aren't they? Not like some aluminum bonded into the carbon legs. Just carbon.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's one quick cheap way to get over this hurdle until MB can respond. Thanks for the idea of the washers. Looks real classy. 








I'd still like to see the "nut" side collar fit into the hollow w/ a closer tolerance. 
Perhaps there's an answer out there we've yet to see. The disc side of the fork is a bit more burly w/ an aluminum insert of some sort, the non-disc side seems like it's all carbon. A nut that would fit into it tightly might spread forces into a larger area of carbon. 








Also
Here's the shot of the rear dropouts. They are held in place by some pretty small screws. But, they butt up against a nice shelf of sorts. Might do the trick although I have a hard time imagining what direction the braking forces try to pull the axle.


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

Well that is one way to address the issue but I am not sure I would be overly confident in that setup. Seems to me that is begging for the carbon to wear, fatigue, or fractures, after which the 'nut' side of the fork will be floating around in the dropout allowing the front wheel to wobble, ultimately dragging on the fork leg at which time you go down like a ton of bricks!



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Thanks for the idea of the washers. Looks real classy.
> View attachment 966604


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

MS-
It's not my preferred fix, but for now, it might do. 
I'm not to worried about undue carbon wear. Not until the bike is laced up and rolling. 

I have one idea for a fix but it'll take some time to fabricate a new nut.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I 'shimmed' the nut with a few wraps of electrical tape. It's taken the play out which should help a bit. I found some knurled washers which might be preferable to flat if you can find them.
Hoping we hear back soon - otherwise TRP should have their fork out in the spring.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I have this idea to make a new nut. A bit wider to fill the hollow in, as you did w/ electrical tape (I might use brass shim material in the mean time), and with a bit of a collar that will extend down past the axle and butt up against the inside of the fork. 

Veritas- Did you put the knureld washer on the lever side? Or find one that can fit in the hollow?


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Couldn't find one to fit the nut side. It's under the lever - it's a nordlock if you've ever seen them.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Bit by bit, the bike is coming together. 
Parts from here, bits from there. 
I'm glad to say that a WTB Nano 40 looks like it'll fit. 
I'm still waiting to sort out the thru hub w/ QR dropouts but I think it'll go. 

Has anyone heard from MB? Is Jenny returning emails again?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*threading rear hydro brake line*

If you step outside your home and listen closely- you just might still be able to hear the echoes of my frustration. 
It didn't take long (45 minutes?) but the stiff TRP Hylex brake lines had some bends and turns that helped them fight their way thru the frame to the rear chainstay. 
(old ratty bar tape on top tube is to protect it from bar slap during the build)

Now I just need more parts and a bleed kit and time to ride and....

I dont know if anyone cares about this thread anymore but I'll keep posting. 
-JCB


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## Dibbs_ (Feb 17, 2009)

keep posting


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

@JCB (and anyone else for that matter) 


Please keep posting as this is the frame I'm interested in purchasing .
Especially if a 40c (ish) will fit front and back 


Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm using the WTB KOM i23. Way more stout than a CX bike needs but it can serve double duty on other bikes if need be. I think it's an enduro rim. 450g on the scales and pretty wide too. 
The 40c front fits no problem. 
I stuffed the rear hub 142 hub into the frames QR dropouts just to check fit. It fit but was close. Hopefully it will still fit when I have the correct axle/frame configuration.


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## spirometre (May 26, 2004)

*new whip*

please keep posting.

certainly following this as this is winning the current "new whip" competition!!!!


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I did get a reply, but it wasn't useful - that was a couple days ago now. Nothing since.


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I dont know if anyone cares about this thread anymore but I'll keep posting.
> -JCB


Please keep posting!....I'm considering this frame but waiting to see if you guys work out all the kinks!.... I check this thread daily!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Are any of you sitting in a cubicle at work? On a Friday? 
Perhaps the answer to our fork/axle woes lies in this web site? 
Search out ChinerTown.com
Seems like a forum specific to Asian carbon. 
I'll look later but am too busy shoveling snow.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Not much happening in their road section, sadly.


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## OnThaCouch (Oct 2, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> Please keep posting!....I'm considering this frame but waiting to see if you guys work out all the kinks!.... I check this thread daily!


^^^^This!! Really interested to see how the fork TA issues resolve. Thanks for posting.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

These guys seem to have several options of thru axles. 
No real stats on their dimensions so I can't yet say what might work. 
Thru axle quick release - Shop Cheap Thru axle quick release from China Thru axle quick release Suppliers at Shenzhen Ican Sports Equipment Co., Ltd. on Aliexpress.com

My current front axle cure is to run my slightly too long axle w/ an end nut that is modified from something that is a better fit.

I'm looking for an end nut that is 21mm on the outside diameter (vs the 19mm that MB sent me). No way I'll find a smooth outer nut- unless one of you knows of a source for such an oddball item?

I'm no pro and have almost no metal working tools but figure mounting the new end nut into a drill, them spinning it across a file might allow me to reduce the outer diameter to something near perfect. 
Something that'll fill the left side of the fork- that hollow area we've talked about. 
And something that will butt up against the inside of the hollow.

I looked into disassembling the F axle and cutting the lever end shorter. 
My limited skillzzz won't allow that as a solution, but I did get it nearly all apart.

More to follow- and photos too!


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I ordered a couple of 15mm axles from ebay, believe the seller to be zgr9? they were $7.88 each.
Specs are 143.40mm from QR side cap to threads, total length is 164.2mm, end cap dia. is 22mm.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks Jeff- 
I'll look into those as well but might wait to hear how they work for you before purchase. 
Sure is a cheap experiment. I think I spent almost that much at the hardwear store on washers and nuts to modify. 
The end nut on my MB axle has an outer edge of 22mm- and I don't think it'd fit in the hollow. 
Please keep us posted.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I'm getting some traction with Jenny, might be smoke and mirrors but she claims they have another axle to send out. I'll wait to see a photo of it installed before I hold my breath on that one


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Me too- 
I guess the "Jenny" persona is back on the clock. 

She says she is willing to send me the correct F axle (saying that their supplier gave the wrong parts) and the rear TA dropouts. 

If I end up w/ the TA drops, I'll be sitting on one set of QR drops if anyone wants them. 
Looks like there might be light at the end of the tunnel, although the end of the tunnel involves shipping from Asia to Colorado! 
We'll see eh?


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

You'll probably find out before I do  my dispute closes in a couple days and I can't end it without being at risk, so the parts may be going back on the boat 
Hopefully 'Jenny' is right, but I still don't see a way to retain the nut in the fork...


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## n1x0n (May 23, 2012)

I also noticed my front axle was way to long, Jenny is sending me a new one. How does your 142x12 axle fit?


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

JCB, those axles I ordered are for a concept fork that Ive been working on the prototype for. Hopefully by summer the world will see my concept, idea and reasoning for this fork.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Verita-
So you opened a dispute w/ Miracle over this F axle issue? Or do you instigate it via PayPal?
How does that work and how has it gone? 

Were there other issues beyond the F axle?


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

The dispute is through Aliexpress - they seem to handle it all and don't pay the vendor until everything is resolved. I'm hoping MB can get me an axle before the dispute expires, otherwise it automatically escalates. I guess it works well, its gotten Jenny to start talking to me again


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## jayboogiezz (Apr 16, 2010)

Definitely subscribing to this thread in hopes that the front thru axle gets worked out. Thanks to those that are keeping the masses up to date, much appreciated.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

They say that the best prediction for future behavior is past behavior. 
If that proves true w/ MB- I'll have a new F axle (and thru axle rear dropouts) but it won't happen within 10 days. 
Waking up to at least a foot of fresh snow, my timeline is pushed back a bit anyway!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Clearance Clarence*

I'm at work. It snowed a foot. 
So I'm posting random semi-useless updates. 
Today's is about clearance and alignment.

This entire frame project began when I learned of WTBs Nano 40. I can't call it a balloon, but it's pretty wide. I thought it would go well on several bikes I _already_ have. 
Then, in my greedy, first world problem way- I thought it'd go even better on something NEW. 
Way too much internet use later and fast forward to now.

Zero issues on the fork. Plenty of space. F wheel fits nicely in the fork and seems well aligned. I have no photos of the fork.

Rear wheel is a tight fit. And perhaps a bit crooked in the frame. 
I'll confirm proper dish on the wheel but there might be minor alignment issues. 
NOT enough to worry about it. This tire is huge for a CX frame and the slim tolerances make this minor issue more apparent. 
My Blacksheep and SS Moots had similar issues.

I won't fault a $480 frame/fork too much! 








I'll also wait to see if the Thru Axle dropouts they are sending allow the wheel to line up better, or hopefully not worse!

As usual, it's hard to get a shot that shows it all. I'm not looking forward to hours of mud w/ these close tolerances but, it'll do for 90% of my days. (I'm not going to race CX. That'd be crazy talk!)


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Could you not just flip the wheel and check for correct wheel dish / dropout alignment ? 
Just curious 

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

And put the disc on the drive side? Even temporarily? 

Like some sort of insane crazy person... Umm.. Who didn't think to try that simple solution... Even though that's what I do in the wheel stand... 
I've got no excuses. 

Yes, I could try that simple and effective test. 
Thanks.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Totally insane ! 
What kind of idiot would even suggest such a thing ??? 
Sorry :yikes: :yesnod: :blush: ut: :lol: 
LOL

Fat Biker


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## spirometre (May 26, 2004)

Can someone with this frame please measure and confirm the BB drop.

seems weird that all these companies have gone BACK from the 65-70mm drop to a 57mm. i have a plan to fix it, but interested still.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*BB Drop*

Using a high tech cotton string laced thru the drops- my frame (size 54) measures at 64mm. 
Give or take perhaps one mm.

I'm not sure there's too much to trust from their schematics. 
DUring the process I saw several variants on the seat tube diameter. 
In the end, it's 27.2.
Mine was anyway.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I'm at work. It snowed a foot.
> So I'm posting random semi-useless updates.
> Today's is about clearance and alignment.
> 
> ...


The red looks super!

I can't remember if I mentioned it in my build post, but the dropouts required the two allen bolts to be tightened up after a few rides on both sides. Perhaps your dropouts are not aligned yet as this needs to be done?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Racing-
Why do the allens need to be tightened? Do they loosen? Or do they just seat into that ledge they butt up against?

Mine are tight but if they shift a bit, the alignment may improve.


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## Dibbs_ (Feb 17, 2009)

Might be worth checking if there is a bit of paint fowling where the rear dropouts snug up to.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Could be. 
From looking at the housing fittings and bottle bosses- the paint/frame interface seems a bit rough. 

Thanks.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Racing-
> Why do the allens need to be tightened? Do they loosen? Or do they just seat into that ledge they butt up against?
> 
> Mine are tight but if they shift a bit, the alignment may improve.


Because while they seemed tight enough on receipt from Ican, they managed to work loose after a few rides. I only had to tighten them once since and they have been fine. I didn't notice at the time if they affected the wheel alignment though.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Anyone having luck on the fork axle? I got some pictures from MB and their 'new axle' looks exactly like the old one. Maybe it's marginally shorter to correct the length, but the nut is definitely still sloppy.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

No luck on my end. 
Jenny said she's sending it, but I have no tracking number or proof of this event. 
I can't help but wonder if the axle shot she sent you is just a stock TA photo- perhaps not updated to this fork. 

If it shows up and only the threaded area of the shaft is shorter, well that's less than I hoped for but is surmountable. 

My local hardware store had a nut w/ the correct diameter, just too wide. 
Even in my rickety way, it wouldn't take much to reduce the outside diameter of is, then have it snug up inside the fork's collar. 

And if you are a machinist type person, it would take even less to make one from aluminum. 
If I find a solution- you'll know. 
The correct "nut" for the axle would only be 2mm wider. Perhaps it doesn't show up in photos.
(typed w/ the belief that you are correct, but w/ the hope that you are wrong)


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

The F axle isn't fixed- but it'll do on smooth pave for now. 
My rear chain tensioner (homebrewed) isn't working so I'm using a hacked up R der. 
The R axle isn't a TA yet, but QR sure did me well for several decades. 

But- I rode the bike today. 
I only rode it to the Post Office (to see if parts for this bike arrived- they didn't) w/ running shoes atop the clipless pedals. 
And- it was great. It was exciting. I love a new bike. 

Then things went a bit south. 
I was trying to position the TRP Hylex brakes on the Salsa Woodchipper bars. 
I'm not ham fisted but I snapped the band that secures the brake lever to the bar. I was trying positions fo the levers on these oddball bars- I wasn't snugging them up much. And it snapped. 
Perhaps it was me, perhaps a weak part. Perhaps a combo. 
So now, even w/ parts stolen from other bikes- the MB is back on the hook waiting for parts.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

So JCB did you remedy rear wheel alignment problem or just live with it ? 

Curious 

Anyone else with one of these frames got wheel alignment isses similar to JCB ? 

P.S. Thread needs moar pics please :thumbsup:


Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'll know more after the rear TA drop outs show up (if they do!) and I get some miles on them. 
I'm looking to see if the drop outs seat themselves a bit more snugly, allowing the wheel to find it's real position. Then I'll judge again.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

thanks for all the updates. i'm following with interest. keep it coming. 

BTW you have both a Moots and a Black Sheep!? i have two feelings about that...

1. Your my hero
2. I hate you


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Have about 50 miles on the Miracle. No issues w/ the frame though I'm spooked by the hodgepodge front axle set up and my homebrew repair of the Hylex brake hood attachment. This fear keeps me from hammering hard while standing. That and being in a fully winterized preseason shape of pale pear. 
It feels like a bike. Nothing bad, nothing amazing. (yet) 

Rear wheel (using the QR dropouts) sits perfectly straight. No idea why. Something seated, or I had it in wrong or I'm going blind or have a head injury or....

My dream of loving the Salsa Woodchipper bars might stay a dream. They feel very similar to a drop bar (prob becuase they are a drop bar) and i'm not a huge fan of drops. The hilarious lowest position on these feels even more ridiculous than it does on a road bike. But again- I really like riding upright.

No creaks (frame was ordered w/ a threaded BB), nothing wrong. But- this has been easy riding on easy terrain. If something went wrong w/ any bike in this time, well- that'd be truly sad. 

BENKD-
I have two Moots but they are a bit long in the toof. Silly 1 1/8th headtubes are going to kill me. Just ask the spaceship riding carbon knee pad dropper squish crowd. Otherwise-if someone made a bike I liked more than the Mooootssess.. I suppose I'd try to get one. Until then, I'll keep loving these. Even as they enter into their 8th season of joy. 
I sold the Blacksheep. James was quite good to me back in the day. Before bent flattened tubes made him the soup du jour of NAHBS. Wait- not the soup du jour, the Belle Of the Ball? 
Anyway....
That little 26" hardtail was alternately psychic and terrifying. Perhaps I requested a too steep headtube. But I've got a tendency towards a twitchy bike.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

thats cool, I'll graduate to a Ti frame one day, for now high end steel does the trick for me. 

good news that the rear wheel is sitting in there strait. at least the frame isn't jacked.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I have visual confirmation that MB has the new axle sorted. Should ship tomorrow - I imagine you'll hear from her soon as well.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

What an odd evolution of a bike purchase this has been. 
Drip by drop, information about and on the frame comes in. Bit here and there. 
Then a photo from someone who is actually in possession of one. 

And so it continues- now w/ the fork. 
In a world where we want our highspeed internet to deliver everything instantly, where Amazon has even tried SAME day delivery.
It's a new routine and perhaps a it refreshing.

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Drip by drop, information about and on the frame comes in . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> In a world where we want our highspeed internet to deliver everything instantly.
> 
> -JCB


I don't mind it really I just wish the updates were a bit quicker.   :smilewinkgrin: :arf:

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Since I live in the hills and we are covered in snow, I'm slightly more patient than usual to wait for answers. 

And knowing that such a piece does exist, and just might end up on my bike? 
That helps too.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I'll let you know when I have it in my hands - that was a photo from Jenny. From the other angles it looks like they resolved the loose fit as well as the length problem.

I was under a little tighter time constraints and ended up getting a replacement fork domestically. Hopefully once the new axle comes in this will be a slick fork for someone.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

(when I post this fast after a response- assume I'm at work)
Have you seen that new Enve fork? 
It's plenty of the usual blah blah Enve praise. And I'm sure it's amazing. 
But what caught my eye was the fender. It mounts w/o any hardware. 
A bit too limited in it's use for my preference, but also very clever and desirable. 
NAHBS 2015: ENVE Teases New Dual Bolt Seatpost Design, Plus More Details on GRD Fork and Chris King 12mm Prototype Hubs!


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

What a strange fork - that's pretty questionable clearance on a 38 
I was lucky enough to get my hands on a TRP - it's a really nice bit of kit.
New Carbon Cyclocross Fork from TRP | road.cc


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Have it in hand - will test fit tonight. Looks like it should work!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

WoooHoooo!
Progress!
Does the out diameter of the nut seem a bit larger?


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## OnThaCouch (Oct 2, 2010)

InVeloVeritas said:


> Have it in hand - will test fit tonight. Looks like it should work!
> 
> View attachment 972448


Nice!! Looking forward to finding out if this is a solid solution. Thanks.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Test fit - it works! Nice and secure. Nut could be a little shorter still, but the OD is correct and it fits securely.


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## PeterXu (Mar 12, 2015)

Many thru axles options available.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm not sure there are many thru axles that'll fit this fork. 
Sitting w/ one on my desk, wondering how I can cure the issues- I found ZERO that would be solutions. 
Seems the MB variant that Veritas has is the only way to do it. At least that I've heard of. 
If I'm wrong- PLEASE! I'd love a link to what will work. Finding a nut w/ the proper outer diameter is rare.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Yeah, and I had zero luck getting any sellers to send me specs or dimensions for what they were selling.
Just lean on MB - they had it expedited to me within a week.


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## amd (Oct 14, 2011)

I've got over 400 miles on my 1x11 "Gerät" as I've affectionately called it.

still don't have the right axles but the ones I have work just don't look good. 

Bike ride is decent. Not the s-works sl4 ride quality I came fr but that's not surprising. Feels secure over the potholed roads I've been navigating. It snaps nice compared to other cx bikes I've had, so that was a pleasant surprise. It feels lively on the road. Some would call it twitchy but I like short wheel bases personally.

It's plenty stiff as well. I'm a fan.

Now if I could just get the seller to send me the right axles...


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm glad to have found this thread. I have two MC286 frames on order (building one for myself and my wife). I was glad to learn about the through axles being available from Miracle Bikes, because I've had quite a time trying to determine what kind I need and where to get them for a reasonable price.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned something about 142x12 rear wheels and derailleur compatibility. I'm basically a roadie and have no previous experience with through axles or disc brakes. My plan was to build this up with a Shimano 105 group, MTB wheels (I'm looking at the Mavic Crossride wheelset) and BB7 brakes. Is there any reason to question whether the Shimano road derailleur would work on the 142x12 frame?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

AMD-
Glad to know you are tourble free.
I"m about 100 miles in, no issues except those I"ve listed (MB never sent TA rear dropouts (supposedly being dealt w) and the F axle issue (supposedly being dealt w/!)).
Spencer- 
I see no reason why a road der won't fit on this frame. I am running mine as a SS w/ hydro road brakes but- it'll all still fit. 
The issues you might have to hurdle won't be Derailluer vs frame. It might be cassette vs hub free body, but I think there are simple cures for your concerns. 
In short-you'll be fine.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> The issues you might have to hurdle won't be Derailluer vs frame. It might be cassette vs hub free body, but I think there are simple cures for your concerns.
> In short-you'll be fine.


You're referring to the difference in chain line with the wider hub combined with road cranks, I assume? I had forgotten about that. If I understand all the measurements correctly, that would move the cassette over 2.5 mm from where it would be on a road hub with 130mm spacing. That possibly makes the small ring/small cog combination problematic, but means the large/large combination should work better than normal. I think I can live with that.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

@qspencer 

The thing that would concern me about using a road rear derailleur most would be total tooth capacity . I'm looking at building up a drop bar do it all/gravel bike with a wide ratio block in back . The most I think I can get away with , using a short cage Ultegra rear mech is a 12-28 11s . That's without using any voodoo hackery of course (and the most I am comfortable to push it to). You may not want to go with such wide set of ratios YMMV 

Fat Biker


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

It appears there is a long cage derailleur and 11-32 cassette available with both the 105 and Ultegra groups. I'm going to pair that with a 50/34 compact crankset, which should be a wide enough range for me.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi, first time poster here but frequent lurker. After many days of reading this post, I finally went ahead and ordered an MC-286 also. Couldn't wait anymore after seeing all the pics! Went ahead and got the thru axles (which Jenny confirmed were correct) along with the headset, so hopefully everything will arrive as ordered.

Anyways, is there a tubeless ready thru-axle cyclocross wheelset made by anyone yet? Or do I need to build up a set with MTB hubs? I'm a heavy rider (220) so I need something sturdy. 

Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Let me pull this little MTBR Forums trick out of my hat-
KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT IT, AND HAVING DONE NO RESEARCH- Here's my loud opinion on the road gearing question. 
It'll work. And it'll be fine. (given that your der can handle the cassette spread).

And on the topic of wheels- 
I also don't know but surely there may be options. 
Me? I can't say enough great things about these hubs, and this business:
MTB270 Rear Disk/MTB Hub - 24/28/32h - QR or 12mm Thru Axle

Light? Yes- as light as my DT240s. 
Verstile axle standards? Yes, less $$ than swapping end caps on DT Swiss hubs. (and easier)
High Engadgement? Yes. 
Well made? (not enough miles to say but-) Yes. 
Bling Color options? No. 
Fancy packaging or stickers? No (but I added refelctive tape in the hubs)
Great Service? Response to Emails and Questions? Yes.

They built up great, are quiet, and I'd be very surprised if they fail me. 
Here's a thread on them. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/initial-thoughts-bikehubstore-mtb270-mtb180-hubs-948757.html

I laced them to WTB KOM rims (too much rim for this bike but I like that it can pull double duty on other bikes if need be- esp since the hub is so versatile) w/ Sapim spokes. 
Of the things that lurk in my brain and worry me (like when I'm riding the MB on overly rough terrain and worry about the fork....)- these wheels aren't one of the concerns.

-JCB


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## foresterxt (Oct 20, 2008)

Well count me in on the MC-286 if they've got the TA issue resolved. I'm in the process of finishing my paint design (back and forth with Jenny). It's looking good so far and hoping to give her the green light within the next day or so. I went ahead and ordered a setup of 38mm Carbon Tubulars off of ebay a few weeks ago and had them built with the Novatec 771/772 hub. They turned out awesome and fairly light for disk wheels 1425g.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fore-
Please post when Jenny gives you the photos of the painted frame. 
From her recent responses (or lack there of), you may have your painted frame w/ the CORRECT parts sooner than I have the correct dang axle. Happy Miles.

The actual paint job they did on mine is great- but, I now wish I'd gone w/ a simple subtle silver. 
Next time perhaps.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

qspencer said:


> It appears there is a long cage derailleur and 11-32 cassette available with both the 105 and Ultegra groups. I'm going to pair that with a 50/34 compact crankset, which should be a wide enough range for me.


This is true. But a long cage (any cage) road derailleur (non of the road versions I can think of anyway) isn't clutched. So chain slap and drop are a concern for me. This is why I felt it was a good compromise to go with mid/short ultegra 11s, even though the extra lower ratios are tempting 

Fat Biker


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I'm running road derailluers, Campy Record 10sp, with and 11-28 cassette and a 34/46 chainring combo. I have no problems whatsoever with this group. I'm running this on a carbon Dedaccai Supercross disc, which has 135mm rear spacing. I do lots of fire road, single track and plenty of big climbs on most of my rides.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Don't forget if you're planning to run current 11spd that you have a 'road 11 speed ' freehub body. Mountain 11 speed is either XD or new XTR, neither of which will take a road cassette.
Selection of road disc hubs is a little limited, even more so if you want thru axle. Bontrager, Easton, and DT come to mind with options.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Not to sound like some kool aid drinking clown but (I think) the BHS hubs I listed will work for a wide range of cassette options. 

Ordering the SRAM 11s free hub will only work w/ SRAM but the 11s Shimano set up I ordered will work in plenty of 8,9,10,and 11speed set ups.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Yup , all good here for me . 
Won some new take-off cyclocross disk wheels off thief-bay . 
No name hubs.
135mm OLD qr (qr's inc) .
Shimano 11 speed compatible (10 speed spacer included) .
Cartridge bearings throughout .
Deep section disk rims .
Just over 1900g .
£75 ($110) delivered .

They spin well and seem to have a decent amount of POE (not counted yet - for the price and weight I don't care either  )
Straight and true with fairly uniform tension (ping tested only) .

They'll do to get me rolling till I can save the $$$ for some hookless narrow carbon hoops 



Fat Biker


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks JCB and others for the reply. I will check out those hubs. Is the WTB KOM rim you mentioned easy to run tubeless? 

I haven't seen much in terms of a major manufacturer making a tubeless thru axle cross wheelset yet, but I know there are some coming. Apparently Zipp and Bontrager are coming out with some, but you don't see many yet.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes. 
The WTB KOM set up perfectly tubless (using WTB Nano 40c TCS tires). 
I used Stan's tape. And all went fine.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

That's sweet - yeah, the confusion comes up now that Shimano offers 11 speed mtb.
9/10/11 speed mtb - same freehub body as before (9/10 speed)
11 speed road - longer freehub body, can use 10 speed with a spacer.

You can't put an 11 speed road cassette on a 9/10/11 speed mtb freehub body. My coworker just ran into this after buying a set of DT 350s. The mtb version can't run a road cassette, but the 'road db' version can.

Just watch out for that if you're shopping mtb hubs/wheels for 'cross.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Yes.
> The WTB KOM set up perfectly tubless (using WTB Nano 40c TCS tires).
> I used Stan's tape. And all went fine.


I think it must be easier with a slightly wider tyre to go tubeless . I tried and failed multiple times with some 32c Conti's .
This was on Specialized tubeless ready Roval 29er rims . When I eventually got them to seat up and tried them on the road around the block , first corner the back blew off the rim . Put me on my a$$ and made a pretty mess of the rim edge too .

Did manage a cool 180⁰ power drift in the process so it's all good  LOL

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I don't know that this is really that funny, or even accurate but...
While trying to limp a friend home after his Specialized had some wheel issues- I heard the phrase "You can't say Roval w/o saying oval" and well it stuck w/ me. 

I've never had a tire blow off while tubeless- yet. I think that would unnerve me more than I can possibly guess.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah , my butt did keep a firm grip on the seat in bends for a good while afterwards , if ya know what I mean 
It is easing up a bit now though , but it's always in the back of my mind . . . . . . . . .

Cos ya never know when it just . . . . . might . . . . let . . . . . gooooooooooooooo ! ! !




:madman: D'oH !



Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Mutcha Scratchin MB is still hanging me out to dry w/ the rear TA dropouts as well as the correct front axle. 

12 days ago, "Jenny" said such items would be sent. 
Perhaps they are on their way but nothing yet. 

Plus a Chain Reaction order never made it to my PO Box. So that's a F ring and stem that didn't show. 
Kind of a blessing since I now realize the stem would have been too short. And the F ring might have been to steep for my enumic self.
Both would have been my own fault. A SS cross bike is silly on pave and it's not like I didn't have a stem I could have demoed. 

But it's no big deal. Just a simple 4 weeks after the frame arrived and I'm waiting on parts. 
(I don't know the emoticon for sarcasm)
My hodgepodge F axle is working. The rear drops are working as QRs. 
It's a bike. It works.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> It's a bike. It works.


Pushing the definition boundaries of "bike" and "works"









PMSL

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Well played FBiker. 
Well played. 

To be rolling around on this SS carbon space ship and claim "it's a bike, it works" sounds pretty ugly and smug. 
Guess it's time to move to Boulder so I can complain about how hard it is to find parking for my Land Rover. 

Today's MB issue is w/ the chain tensioner- but that post will have to wait for a different thread.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

The latest from the matrix that calls herself "Jenny".

_Hello Peter,

Glad to hear from you !

I'm very sorry about the front axle and rear dropouts have not send to you, because the front axle product now. we had urgent factory, if stock will send to you soon ok ?

i'm very sorry again

Jenny_

I have to wonder just how happy she is to hear from me.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> The latest from the matrix that calls herself "Jenny".
> 
> Hello Peter,
> 
> ...


I wonder how urgent the factory is ? ? ? ? ? ? :idea: :ihih:

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm hoping an urgent factory is beneficial to our dilema! 
Time will tell... something anyway.


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## Dr.Galactus (Apr 14, 2012)

*XTR Di2?*

This will be a bit of a long shot given there are only about 5 people with this frame it seems but here goes;

Has anyone tried running Di2 XTR? The rear is obviously not an issue but the front requires a mount such as 
Shimano XTR Di2 Front Derailleur Mount Adaptor | Evans Cycles
in either Direct Mount, E-Type Mount, High Clamp Band or Low Clamp Band.

Looking at MB's site it comes with a road style braze on,







and that seat tube doesn't look round enough for a band clamp.

The obvious answer would be use an Ultegra Di2 front mech but Shimano recently disabled that .

The direct mount looks like it might work in place of the supplied braze on but I'd rather not find out the hard way. I've emailed Jenny but I'd rather not take their urgent factory word on it.

Thanks.

<edit> Reply back from Jenny


> Many thanks for your interested in our carbon CX frame MC-286
> 
> you send me the link parts could not fit MC-286 frame. you need order fit CX frame this part


Well that's a pain in the arse


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Doktor-
The idea of lacing up a MB w/ an XTR build makes my brain hurt. 
But I have no idea.
I will add that getting clear responses from "Jenny" is nearly impossible. No matter how I would arrange the wording of my emails, the answer always returned in a vague and confusing way. the answers might be in my favor, or might not.
I'm pretty sure they use the language barrier to their benefit. 
Like a shield. 

On a side note- "Jenny" says the correct F axle has been sent to me.

On a second side note- 
Are any of you (living in the USA) seeing Chain Reaction orders getting lost? 
One of mine is listed as lost. 
One is very late. 
A friend's order arrived w/ the box all beat to hell (although the contents were fine).
And a second friend is also worried about a late/lost order.


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## Dr.Galactus (Apr 14, 2012)

Originally I was going to go 1x which wouldn't cost such a silly amount, wouldn't have a wide enough spread for a touringy adventure bike though, hopefully XT Di2 isn't too far away.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Mine is set up as a SS (for now). 
My hope is that I'll be able to use some frog modified variant of a 1X or electronic shifter at some point.

While bleeding the TRP Hylex brakes (I can't recommend them enough) I saw an area under the brake lever hood that is clearly intended for an electronic shifting system. 
Then I saw this-
Prototype TRP Di2 integration clicks climbers switch into Hylex hydro levers

So- SS for now, and perhaps something else farther down the road. 
And MAN have I been waiting for the 11s XT. 
I just went w/ a frankencog 10s set up on the geared bike so that'll mean that Shimano will release what I was waiting for in about 10 minutes.

But DI2 on a mountain or CX bike? Yikes.
Derailleurs fail, get bent, smacked, and blown up. For me- it's coming. Not if, when. 
And that stuff is just too much $$ to be a disposable part. (for now!)


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Dr.Galactus said:


> This will be a bit of a long shot given there are only about 5 people with this frame it seems but here goes;
> 
> Has anyone tried running Di2 XTR? The rear is obviously not an issue but the front requires a mount such as
> Shimano XTR Di2 Front Derailleur Mount Adaptor | Evans Cycles
> ...


A full XTR Di2 setup? Even if you were able to run the front mech you'd surely run into issues with the bottom bracket and crank spindle length too? Isn't shell size for MTB 90/92mm and road 86mm (at least for PF86). Would you be running a flat bar set up too or would you reprogram road levers to work with the XTR drivetrain?


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## Dr.Galactus (Apr 14, 2012)

This is why I stick with BSA, so much easier to mix and match, Road is 68mm, MTB is either 73 or 68mm so a few spacers and you can fine tune the chain line while you're at it. 
Would be running dropbars, the R785 hydraulic Di2 levers work fine with XTR so long as if you're running a front mech it's also XTR, can't mix and match. 

Having looked at my box of broken bike bits and counted the number of smashed rear mechs I've decided to hold off on Di2 until XT comes out, unfortunately that limits drop bar/mtb mech compatibility to Sram.
They don't make a rear mech that can do 2x11 so I'd have to stick with 10spd (not a problem) but their 10spd S700 dropbar hydraulic shifters are £650+ a set, doesn't end up much cheaper than XTR Di2 and with pretty much zero future compatibility. 

Bikes, why you so complicated?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I like the thinking outside of the box on this build. 
I went BSA w/ my MB build, but only so I could run a SS chain tensioner off the BB (it replaces one of the spacers)

Doktor- I'm sure you remember the days when there was more compatibility between designs. 
I really am tired of seeing yet another new standard of headset/axle/brakes/wheels/freehubs/BB/mech etc. 
The splintering of all these ideas has worn me out. I'll run my Ti 1 1/8th frames into the ground before I adapt a new soon to be old standard. 

I had hoped to jump right over the 10s world on mountain bikes but while waiting for the 11s XT, I got too frustrated and ordered up a 1X10 system to get me thru. 

-P


----------



## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> I think it must be easier with a slightly wider tyre to go tubeless . I tried and failed multiple times with some 32c Conti's .
> This was on Specialized tubeless ready Roval 29er rims . When I eventually got them to seat up and tried them on the road around the block , first corner the back blew off the rim . Put me on my a$$ and made a pretty mess of the rim edge too .
> 
> Did manage a cool 180⁰ power drift in the process so it's all good  LOL
> ...


I've got some Kenda Happy Medium 32c tubeless on Bontrager Mustang 29er OSB rims (great rims btw, too bad they don't make them anymore). They were a bit rough to get on the rim, but not *too* hard. They have worked brilliantly. Nothing phases this combo. I will never have tubes on a cross bike again (or any bike for that matter).

I think I might buy this frame in a couple weeks: rebuild these rims with some Novatec 771/772 hubs I picked up (though I am considering getting some carbon hoops).

Is the general consensus that the axle situation has been worked out (not counting Johnny)?


----------



## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Slyver said:


> Is the general consensus that the axle situation has been worked out (not counting Johnny)?


If ONE is a "general consensus" then yes it has.  LOL

P.S. If ya counting JCB (which ya gotta do, how can ya not ?  )  then no it hasn't .

For the problem to be sorted people need to have them in their grubby little mits no ?

Give it a couple more weeks n then we'll probably be able to say yes. (no idea what MB is shipping with new orders)

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thinking of buying? 
Don't do it yet. 
Perhaps give me a day or three to see if this is what I'm really seeing.

I'm looking at the drive side of the BB shell and I _think_ the BSA (threaded) BB is shifting to the right! What the crap?

I took a photos when it was new, now there seems to be about 1mm protruding to the R that wasn't there in the the original shots. 
I didn't take a shot of just the BB so it's hard to say for certain but I'd bet about 90% that it's migrated. 
It doesn't want to push back to the left, and it doesn't slip when tightening the BB. 
Odd for sure.

Rides planned for tomorrow and Friday. Will know more soon. 
Could be a sad day!
-JCB


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Can any of you school me on a BB30-BSA adapter? 
What are the chances that MB runs all these frames as BB30, then stuffs a BSA adapter into it for folks like me?
WHat would i be looking for to determine this?


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## Dr.Galactus (Apr 14, 2012)

BB30 to BSA sleeves are definitely a thing










Isn't crazy to think that it would be quite a good cost saving measure, only have to make one frame and shove in a metal sleeve that definitely won't have cost them $50 like the SRAM one.

Having removed BB30 bearings the interference fit should be sufficient to keep it in place no matter what, would seem there is a tolerance issue with either the frame or the adaptor, if you know someone with BB30 tools maybe get them to bosh it out and stick it back in with some threadlock?

For comparison here's the BSA BB of my 2yr old Flyxxi 20chiner, was one piece molded in then.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Let yet another hurdle between me and this bike begin!
Plenty of this weird build lands on MB. 
-The sent the wrong F axle.
-They were incommunicado for a bit before repsonding to my inquiries about the axle. 
-They didn't have an axle to send
-I'm waiting for the axle, that has been sent. 
Add to that, pretty much the exact same issues w/ the rear dropouts. 
-I asked for both QR and TA rear drops. The frame arrived w/ two pair of QR. (Anyone want a set?)
-The correct rear drops are on their way. 

There have been plenty of other issues. 

I snapped a brake hood band. No idea how, I'd like to say I'm not a ham fisted mechanic but... whatever. They sent a new set. 
The Hylex brakes didn't show w/ any olive or barbs for a re-bleed. So they sent some out. 
(TRP has been great- and the brakes are well worth it)

A chain reaction order didn't show. 
They finally gave me a credit. Then the order showed. We're debating that issue now via email. 

My hopeful stem size was wrong. Minor and avoidable. 

The SS gearing I had planned is incompatible w/ the amazingly cool (and limited) chain tensioner device I'm using. (it attaches at the BB). So I'm running a 32t instead of 34t ring. I'll live.

The chain tensioner dragged on the the frame during installation so some dremel work later (to the device, not the frame) and it fits fine. 

DEDA bar tape blows. Should have stuck w/ what I like and know. Tore that during installation. (guess I am more of a hack that I like to admit)
That might be it....

Wait- oh yea.
THE THREADED BB INSERT IS DEFINITELY MOVING! If I pull the cranks out and snug the BB tight. The threaded insert moves. Moves back when I try to loosen the BB cups. 
Fricking fracking frocking hurdles. 

So- now what is the best way to fix this? 
The Doktor has listed that it is likely an insert. I think he is correct. It's an easy way for MB to offer options. Make the frame a BB30, stuff a sleeve in it for BSA folks and all is well. The inside measurement is the same 42mm that a BB30 is. 
So now I have to find a safe way to remove the sleeve, and install one that doesn't slip. 

Part of the reason of this build was for gravel bike tours. 
Will I ever trust it enough to strike out on? 
Perhaps but not yet. 
-JCBones.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Let yet another hurdle between me and this bike begin!
> Plenty of this weird build lands on MB.
> -The sent the wrong F axle.
> -They were incommunicado for a bit before repsonding to my inquiries about the axle.
> ...


JCB I feel for ya dude . A new build an all ya wanna do is ride . Not fight with parts and tools .
I wonder if MB would be willing to step up for ya here ? I know they've been less than stellar so far but I would be tempted to ask some serious Q's here . 

Do they do the one piece BSA BB at all or do they just make BB30 and sleeve down ?
Was yours a one off (as you asked for custom paint) and they only realised after they'd painted it that they'd used the wrong BB so shimmed it ?
Would they be prepared to refund you the amount it would cost (or at least half) to get a decent BB adapter ?
Perhaps point them to this thread as maybe some leverage , to show them the interest this frame has .
I am one of the people waiting to see how your experience pans out here JCB before I pull the trigger . I'm sure there are more ?
I personally do not want an adapted BB30 to BSA frame .

Don't waste your time or energy searching for a BB insert . Do yourself a favour and get the Praxis one . I understand that it's the only one that "locks" into the BB with their patented design .
Expensive compared to the rest but cheap if you have to buy one when you're dissatisfied with the cheap option you previously ended up buying . It seems to get good feedback whenever it's mentioned . I personally have never read anything (other than price  ) bad about it .

Hope ya get this figured soon buddy 

Fat Biker

P.S. The Praxis link


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks Fat. 
It is one funny puzzle. 
The GF is always saying how much happier I am when I have projects to keep my head busy. 
But she also says i'm happier when I'm on the bikes.

The inner threaded sleeve has cut outs inside, like you can see into the down tube and seat tube.

If I get around to it, I might try to press out the sleeve and get an idea of it's outer surface. If it's a surface that might (as I'd hope!) adhere to epoxy, I might just glue it back in w/ the hope that it'll do.

I saw a video of the Praxis being installed- it looks pretty dang good. 
I'll sleep on it for a bit and let it marinate in my head.

One thing I could tell is that the photos Jenny sent after it was painted are the frame w/o the threaded BB. 
Then when it arrived- it's threaded. 
So, the frame is definitly not threaded after painting. Then they convert it for the buyer. 
Here are two shots to clarify. 
Here's how it arrived to me:








And here's how Jenny showed it after painting.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> If I get around to it, I might try to press out the sleeve and get an idea of it's outer surface. If it's a surface that might (as I'd hope!) adhere to epoxy, I might just glue it back in w/ the hope that it'll do.


TBH I dunno which I'd have more confidence in now that I've thought about it :???:

The epoxy route could be a darn site cheaper if it works . But if it don't it sure is gonna be a b***h to remove that epoxy :eekster:

I think I'd take the risk though .

I'd key both the BB sleeve and press-in real well and leave them as coarse as possible . Just to give the epoxy a good chance to latch onto something .

What were you thinking of using JB Weld or . . . . ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Probably toothpaste and coffee. 
Should do the trick. The oils in the grounds will keep the creaking down and the toothpaste should help with any voids or cavities.

Actually- I suppose a frame like this is largely epoxy so i try to find out what epoxy might be the best. 
I used some epoxy kit while repairing an old Superfly with a broken seat stay. It's still rolling so I suppose I trust it. I can't imagine I can hope it won't creak though.

I've traded emails with Jenny. New photos have been forwarded to her manager. My fingers are crossed.

Here a shot of how it moved inside the frame.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Probably toothpaste and coffee.
> Should do the trick. The oils in the grounds will keep the creaking down and the toothpaste should help with any voids or cavities.


Any of these should do the trick












Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Actually- I suppose a frame like this is largely epoxy so i try to find out what epoxy might be the best.
> I used some epoxy kit while repairing an old Superfly with a broken seat stay. It's still rolling so I suppose I trust it.


Hopefully you won't be getting any epoxy on the carbon so would it really matter what type of epoxy you used ?
If you were bonding metal directly to the carbon then . . . . . . .



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I can't imagine I can hope it won't creak though.


That JB Weld says it takes 20 - 25mins to "set" and upto 24hrs to fully cure . Dunno under what circumstances that would be though . The longer you could leave it the though the better chance it would have of being "fully cured" and less likely to creak .

How long can you stay off a new bike build . . . . . . ? 



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I've traded emails with Jenny. New photos have been forwarded to her manager. My fingers are crossed.


Don't suppose she give you an idea as to whether all the frames are made like this or not yet ?

With the luck you're having with this frame JCB , would bonding the BB in yourself void the warranty if you had to make a future claim ? I would be tempted to get conformation via email one way or the other .

As is it looks to me you could make a claim against a manufacturing defect and get a warranty replacement . If you could stomach the high return shipping costs that is ? Again , a bargaining tool you might wish to use to offset the cost of repairs . It would be cheaper for you and "Jenny" to refund part or all of the repair cost than to return the frame and get a new (custom painted) frame sent back .

Fat Biker

P.S. Mmmmmmnnnn bacon toothpaste


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Probably toothpaste and coffee.
> Should do the trick. The oils in the grounds will keep the creaking down and the toothpaste should help with any voids or cavities.
> 
> Actually- I suppose a frame like this is largely epoxy so i try to find out what epoxy might be the best.
> ...


So it actually rotated forward too? Wow, not good. Kind of glad I spec'd the PF86 now. Having said that I was in hurry to get it built for a race and installed an XTR PF BB that I had (fitted cups only, without the central tube). They were almost put in by hand, which is not normal in my experience. Having said this they have worked fine for 2000km and it is only now that they are creaking under heavy load. Why am I telling you this? Well, a very well respected LBS gave me some of a green coloured Loctite product that fills, sticks and hardens on application. It is a semi permanent solution, that they usually use for MTB suspension bearings that have worn or battered the frame bearing seat out of tolerance. Perhaps this might work for you if you were able to remove the sleeve?

Oh, and for anyone that's interested, it turns out that MTB PF90/92 is a 41mm cup and Road PF is 42mm, hence why my cups were lacking in interference fit.

Hope you get the BSA sleeve sorted, I'm sure returning the frame is not a desirable option at this stage!


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

I think that this is the one. I'd say it would be ideal;

LOCTITE 648 - Retaining Compound - Loctite


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Racing snake said:


> I think that this is the one. I'd say it would be ideal;
> 
> LOCTITE 648 - Retaining Compound - Loctite


Thanks for the info and link Snake



Racing snake said:


> . . . . . . . I was in hurry to get it built for a race and installed an XTR PF BB that I had (fitted cups only, without the central tube). They were almost put in by hand, which is not normal in my experience. Having said this they have worked fine for 2000km and it is only now that they are creaking under heavy load. Why am I telling you this? Well, a very well respected LBS gave me some of a green coloured Loctite product that fills, sticks and hardens on application. It is a semi permanent solution, that they usually use for MTB suspension bearings that have worn or battered the frame bearing seat out of tolerance. Perhaps this might work for you if you were able to remove the sleeve?
> 
> Oh, and for anyone that's interested, it turns out that MTB PF90/92 is a 41mm cup and Road PF is 42mm, hence why my cups were lacking in interference fit.


Have we seen any close pics of your completed build yet Snake ?

Far Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Snake-
The inner sleeve is resting on carbon. Not a second aluminum sleeve. Any epoxy/LocTite would be sandwiched between carbon and the aluminum sleeve. 
Does the LocTite listed work in a situation like that? 
Any creaks will have to be heard in time, regardless of the glue used or it's cure time. 
I'm hopeful. But barely! 

Manufacturer defect, without question. 
But, I'm $700 into the frame w/ headset/seat collar/TAs. 
All the rest of the parts would work fine on someone elses frame/fork. 
In a perfect world, they watch me (via Skype) saw the damned thing into pieces and send out a new one but perfect worlds don't visit the earth I know too much. 

Are you confident that Shimano goes 41/42mm between road and mtn? 
They used to be so good at items that play well together.


----------



## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> Thanks for the info and link Snake
> 
> Have we seen any close pics of your completed build yet Snake ?
> 
> Far Biker


Yes, they are in the thread here a few pages back...somewhere, built in October.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Snake-
> The inner sleeve is resting on carbon. Not a second aluminum sleeve. Any epoxy/LocTite would be sandwiched between carbon and the aluminum sleeve.
> Does the Loctite listed work in a situation like that?
> Any creaks will have to be heard in time, regardless of the glue used or it's cure time.
> ...


Are you sure? From the image it looks like if you remove the BSA sleeve it was inside of a secondary tube of metal versus carbon. That same second interior tube looks like my PF interior which was metal, alloy most likely. In fact, I'm wondering if the standard manufacture of these frames is PF, and the BSA is an option where they just fit a sleeve to the PF? I'd nearly put money on it that its alloy, which I'm sure that's better news to you.

In any case, while Loctite spec sheet says 'for metal', it doesn't say not for other materials either. I mentioned to LBS that frame was carbon, but got the impression that they used it to seat bearings into worn surfaces of any material where required. Will you check your BB shell(s) and let me know if both are Metal, or if one is carbon. If one is carbon, I'll ask the LBS if the Loctite is suitable for you.

If you haven't already considered a removal method I'd suggest an old BSA cup in one side and a drift of some sort plus a lump hammer. It won't be pretty, but neither is removing a PF cup. Its a brutal affair!

Re; Shimano BB, for pressfit anyway, yes, with the following additional information. MTN is for e.g. SM-BB94-41A and road is SMBB-91-42A, now I know what the latter 41A and 42A represent! But road can also be a 41mm PF BB with for example the SM-BB92-41B. I haven't yet learned (or remembered) what the A or B represent. Its just nuts with the amount of standards at the minute.


----------



## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I've always liked how well Shimano managed to make so many of their parts work together. Like the way all hydro levers used to (used to) work w/ any hydro caliper. 
And, except for the F der, all mechs worked w/ all shifters (as long as it was 9s/9s etc). 
Guess those days are gone in the new era of multiple standards and ever changing parts. 

I was just gettgin ready to write something along the lines of "YES- it's carbon...." 
But on later inspection, in the bright sunlight of a great day, I can't say with certainty that it's carbon or aluminum. I'm not as sure as I was. 
The logic of making a BB30 frame and stuffing an adapter in it when needed is clear. It's what I would do in a cost saving way. 

If you look inside the BSA insert (in my photo above) you can see it's clearly carbon. About 1mm thick. But- what might not show up clearly is that the BSA sleeve isn't actually touching the carbon inside. So- the carbon probably is a hair wider and there are aluminum cups or sleeves at the edges, where a BB30 bearing would sit. 
On the drive side, the BSA insert is pushed out about 1mm, on the ND side, there is a 1mm area of what might be aluminum. Hard to say but I think you are correct. It has glue on it so I won't know until MB gives me the freedom to either start pounding on it, or send it back. 

The mystery of this BB is becoming more clear.


----------



## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

As you might recall, I bought mine from Ican versus MB. As such only BSA or PF was offered. The PF is PF86 versus BB30 which are quite different physically. Did MB offer a BB30 also? If not I'd be nearly certain that we have the same alu tube running through the BB, only yours has the BSA adapter in it. It seems that while they do some good QC on these framesets, it doesn't extend to the auxiliary parts, e.g your TA issue also.

I need to change my BB again soon, so if you don't have this resolved by then I'll take some images of the empty BB shell so you can compare them. The rest of us seem to have spec'd the BSA, I think I'm the only one with PF. From memory, that rect-oval (  ) cutout inside the BB shell looking into the downtube looks identical to mine. If so, rest assured, its an 41mm x 86mm aluminum shell. Time to contact 'Jenny'! lol

Edit: if you found it was a PF that would be the ideal scenario as you could simply switch to PF versus having to re-glue the BSA insert?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

MB only offers it in BB30 or BSA. 
It would be interesting to know the real truth about who actually manufactures these frames and how many names they are sold under. 

Yesterday this issue really seemed huge. Now, after the help of this forum and other reading- I'm not too worried. I like to see MB step up, but I'm also not to upset about just pushing it out, cleaning it up, and glueing it in. 

But for now- I'm going to ride other bikes for a few days.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Racing snake said:


> Yes, they are in the thread here a few pages back...somewhere, built in October.


My definition of close must be different to yours Snake LOL
I saw the earlier pics ya posted . Perhaps I should have said detail pics instead 
No worries dude 

Fat Biker


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> My definition of close must be different to yours Snake LOL
> I saw the earlier pics ya posted . Perhaps I should have said detail pics instead
> No worries dude
> 
> Fat Biker


LOL, ok. If there's a particular detail you want to look at just let me know and I'll snap it. Its a fairly straight forward build in any case, nothing too flash.


----------



## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Racing snake said:


> LOL, ok. If there's a particular detail you want to look at just let me know and I'll snap it. Its a fairly straight forward build in any case, nothing too flash.


It's a bloody nice bike from what these old eyes can see from the pics you posted . And it looks a damn sight better than the hotch potch piece of ebay bitsa I'm riding .

No there's absolutely no jealousy here at all . No sir . . . . none :arf: LOL

Fat Biker


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> It's a bloody nice bike from what these old eyes can see from the pics you posted . And it looks a damn sight better than the hotch potch piece of ebay bitsa I'm riding .
> 
> No there's absolutely no jealousy here at all . No sir . . . . none :arf: LOL
> 
> Fat Biker


Cheers for the complement, indeed I'm very happy with it so far. I just want to change the wheels, they are too Cx specific.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Racing snake said:


> As you might recall, I bought mine from Ican versus MB. As such only BSA or PF was offered. The PF is PF86 versus BB30 which are quite different physically. . . . . . . If so, rest assured, its an 41mm x 86mm aluminum shell. Time to contact 'Jenny'! lol
> 
> Edit: if you found it was a PF that would be the ideal scenario as you could simply switch to PF versus having to re-glue the BSA insert?


Bit confused here Snake  you seem to realise PF86 and BSA are different physically . Then you seem to be saying if JCB pushes the BSA BB sleeve out he'll be left with a 41mm diameter x 86mm wide shell that would be ready to accept a PF86 BB ?

A BSA shell is either 68mm wide (usually old skool road bike and some MTB's) or 73mm wide (new skool MTB's and some road bikes) (all this excluding 100 mm and 120mm fat bikes shells that utilise BSA threading of course ) . The only thing I can see as being possible here is the shell is a BB30 (be it carbon or alloy but still 68mm wide as per BB30 specs) and they forgot to bond JCB's alloy BSA sleeve in .



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> If you look inside the BSA insert (in my photo above) you can see it's clearly carbon. About 1mm thick. But- what might not show up clearly is that the BSA sleeve isn't actually touching the carbon inside. So- the carbon probably is a hair wider and there are aluminum cups or sleeves at the edges, where a BB30 bearing would sit.
> On the drive side, the BSA insert is pushed out about 1mm, on the ND side, there is a 1mm area of what might be aluminum.


Hey JCB could you not take a sharp object and score the NDS exposed inner BB face of the frame to see if it's shiny or black ? And do the same to the middle part of the BB shell (the part you say is carbon) to confirm the same ?

It's not unheard of for a totally carbon BB30 frame . But the cutouts in the BB shell on your frame look identical to the cutouts on the alloy pressed in shell . Cutouts like those are usually done in the alloy sleeve before it's bonded in .

If you do find it is a BB30 shell *and * you wanna keep the bike single speed , how about this to tidy things up ? It might solve your dremmeling woes with that chain tensioner 

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Racing snake said:


> Cheers for the complement, indeed I'm very happy with it so far. I just want to change the wheels, they are too Cx specific.


You wanna go for deeper section rims similar to pandaxpress' ?

Your next choice has *got *to be carbon surely ?

It would be rude not to  LOL

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Now you are talking Fat. 
I have no interest in a BB30- too many BSA bikes now and don't want to (yet) muddy up my parts bin w/ such specific parts.
But- that is an aswer to all of my woes! 
Fixes the lame BSA, makes it a cleaner SS....
Oh hell. There goes another night of surfing and wondering. 
I'm not going to score anything until MB responds a bit to this issue. 
Still curious to hear whay approach they'll take. 

Wouldn't mind a chance to get a size up, and a new color, and make a list of all my other first world problems.


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I have no interest in a BB30- too many BSA bikes now and don't want to (yet) muddy up my parts bin w/ such specific parts.


In that case, press out the BSA sleeve and get your self something like the Enduro TorTite BB30-24 MTB, Praxis Works BB30 to HT2 or Rotor's BB30 to BB24 bottom bracket, and be done with all this non-sense.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

ms6073 said:


> In that case, press out the BSA sleeve and get your self something like the Enduro TorTite BB30-24 MTB, Praxis Works BB30 to HT2 or Rotor's BB30 to BB24 bottom bracket, and be done with all this non-sense.


The problem is that . . . . . . . JCB didn't order a BB30 frame for one. TWO we don't actually know if the remaining shell is a bb30 if he does push the BSA shell out. THREE nothing can be done till MB step up and clarify the situation as to WHAT can be done without voiding warranty. 
I'm sure JCB wants "to be done with all this non-sense" more than anyone. As he said earlier he's already into this frame and fork package for approximately $700. Yes it could be a relatively simple repair. Perhaps he feels he's spent enough already.

At the end of the day why should he spend another cent more to fix what he didn't want or ask for in the first place ? When essentially it is a manufacturing defect that should be repaired or rectified by the company.

Don't mean to come across as harsh, but it's easy spend someone else's money for them no ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

If- MB steps up w/ a great solution, I'm listening and you will all hear it. 
I am somewhat comforted by the idea that there are likely options out there that'll cure this issue up but- 
Fat Biker definitly hit the head on the nail. Or vice versus. 

It all started w/ the Nano 40. What a cool tire. I can use it on the Karate Monkey, or the steel Salsa CX (now more of a touring) bike. Cool tire. 
Then the ability to dream seeped into my wallet. 

Well.... it's cool tire but it might go well on a new frame. Jeez- I'll never spring for a Pivot CX bike, or Niner, or whatever else. A guy in town as a MB full suspension that he raves about. 
I could try that. 

Initial build specs had it in under $1000.
Re-using old rims, spokes, cranks, bars, levers, etc. 
Wow- custom paint is only about $50....
Well I'd hate to stuff those old Stans rims in something w/ fresh bright paint. And those expensive Hylex brakes sure seem to fit the bill.... etc. 

Bit by bit the build cost of this "cheap" project has gotten too high. 
The YESS ETR BB chain tensioner (look it up- it's so damned clever) was $60 when I could have easily used some ratty old derailluer. But noooooo- little baby JCBs needed his cool bits. 

Anyway- yes, there are solutions to this BB issue. 
And yes Fat- I DO NOT want to spend a penny more on it (for now). 

I just pulled the 9 speed XTR set up off the mtn bike to go w/ a 1x set up (you know the type- doesn't go down the highway as well, doesn't climb as well but we all want it) so it may move to the MB in time. 
And if so- I won't need the SS set up anymore. A BSA will work fine then. 

All signs point to this being a BB30 frame w/ an insert but until I know for sure, I'm just not sure and I'm not going to step off that plank until I know more. 

Rode mountain today. On dirt. In the sun. In short sleeves. W/ the GF. 
More of that will do me well, will do us well. And the MB can sit for a bit until I know more. 
I should have it tip top in time for the Oregon Outback. 

You shouldn't be reading this because you are either riding, or too tired from riding. 
-JCB


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## spirometre (May 26, 2004)

hey Johnny Chicken,
i had a similar issue with a Ican CX frame a couple of years ago. it was well used so I didn't chase it too hard.
Mine was a BB30 frame that i BELIEVE was a PF30 carbon tube with bonded alloy BB30 inserts. one of these is what came loose. once it was out you could see the bonding agent had missed large areas of the insert/frame.

after consulting a mate who's a boat builder (lots of carbon experience) he recommended Araldite (the strong stuff, not the "quick" version - it takes 3 days to cure fully).
as others have discussed, it seems like the 68mm frames are all PF30 with alloy inserts bonded in.
what happened? it worked a treat. amazingly well. raced & trained that frame for 2 more years without a hitch. the BB was probably the strongest part on the bike!!!!!

as a note - my option 2 was to get a Praxis/Wheels Manufacturing threaded PF bb as the threads on the BB hold the whole thing together.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Hey- You in the Towel! Can you hear me now? 
Araldite has been added to my Amazon cart. I'll wait to see what MB says about this before I order it. 

When you say that the bike " worked a treat. amazingly well. raced & trained that frame for 2 more years without a hitch"... Can you include silence? No creaks? None? 

And thanks. 
These tidbits are why I continue to use MTBR forums. Well, that and the usual "a buddy of mine knew a guy w/ a frame like that and thought it was pretty good" type responses.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I've traded emails w/ Jenny and, as always, she has been very positive and seems to be working the BB problem thru her managers. 
But no conclusion yet. 

One interesting part- MB knows about this thread and is following our discussions. 
I see it as a good thing. 
I like that they are interested in our opinions and discussions. 

Go ride your bikes. 
-JCB


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Just a quick follow up on my experience ordering from MB. After ordering, it took about 10 days for Jenny to ship the frame/fork/axles. She said they were waiting on the correct thru axles to arrive.

Once she confirmed it was shipped, she sent me a tracking number and it arrived in less than 7 days. The frame is in perfect condition - everything looks good. The thru axles are the correct ones. 

The only thing that was wrong is that she didn't include the headset I ordered. But she did send a seatpost clamp, so I guess that just about evens things out. I will email her and see if I can get one, but not a big deal either way.

Don't think I can post pics yet, but I will keep you updated on the build. Thanks for all your input!!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

That's great news!
Another happy builder. 
Not that I'm mad. I only ordered it way back when and hope to have all the correct parts soon.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Gluddy - Did you order the BSA or BB30. I'm likely going to take the plunge this week.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi SufferFest - BSA. It looks fine, but of course, who knows when I start to build it up. I'm a little weary seeing JCB's problem with his BSA.

The BSA looks a little different than JCB's though - it's solid all the way through with no holes. Just the threads on one side, metal, then threads on the opposite side. I will try and post a pic if possible.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Gluddy-
I like your chances with your BSA. 
Mine has got to be a fluke. And really- not a terribly tough one to fix. 
If MB had regular problems gluing in their BSA a sleeves, it'd be all over the place. 
Buyers from all disciplines would be posting about the issues. 
You'll be fine. I'm certain. 

You could put in one half of your bb, and snug it up tight. 
Not crazy gorilla anger tight- just tight. If it doesn't move, you're probably fine. 
Ride lots and keep us posted. 

-JCB


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## spirometre (May 26, 2004)

Hey JC,
In terms of "worked a treat" - nothing. no noise, no movement, absolutely perfect for the next 2 seasons.
I was always a little concerned about bearing seat alignment and prem bearing wear - but it never seemed to be an issue. I used the BB30 bearing presses i have and a headset press (exactly as you would to insert bearings) to hold that in place while the araldite cured, and while that's a bit of a ghetto way to ensure bearing seat alignment it was the best i could do.

as for the LONG term use of that frame - a mate is currently riding it as his commuter and it's still kicking. it was a model MB sold also (AC023)


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks Spiro. 
IF the thing was perfect for 2 seasons and is now so bodies trouble free commuter- well that problem was solved. 

Araaldite it is!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I heard from Miracle Bikes yesterday. 
Jenny said that the factory says I need to buy a PF30.

Bummer.
First- I don't want to buy a PF30. As we've said- I don't want to buy anything.
What I want to do is ride my bike. 

Also- If what you've all taught me about BB30/PF30- A PF30 won't work anyway. Unless I push out the BSA, then remove the aluminum sleeve (that we think makes it a BB30) and then find that the shell can be PF30.

So, that's where this project is now.
I opened a dispute via PayPal. 
Guess we'll see where that takes us.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Hi JC-Bones, I'm sorry to hear that you have been the Guinea Pig in all of this, and it appears that your issues are not yet solved. I'm guessing you just want to ride. Personally, I've had good experience with Chinese mfg of carbon products - primarily wheelset and rims, but nonetheless, good products and services??

I've been lurking on the sidelines waiting to see how some of these issues will be resolved. I'm mostly a mountain biker, but my interest in this bike is to have a urban-disturb'n bike that I can swap nearly all components with my 29er. I like to have spares on hand for Rear Der., Crankset, chains, etc. This would allow me to have two frames with nearly everything swappable. With all the standards that have changed over the last 25years of mountain biking, I have boxes of stuff that is literally unusable. 

I also emailed Jenny last week and referenced this thread and asked her about the BB configuration and here is her response: 

Oh, about the BSA bottom bracket. BSA insert into the frame, also molded into the frame. but many customer insert no problem now.

Yes, i know. there had send the bottom bracket problem picture to factory check it.

thanks

Jenny


I'm not sure this is of any help to you JC, but others lurkers may find this helpful. I think I'm going to place an order early next week. My idea is to also get a build up for about $900 - I already have an extra wheel set and some other bits to make it a smaller investment. 

Thanks for your pioneering efforts here!
SF


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I heard from Miracle Bikes yesterday.
> Jenny said that the factory says I need to buy a PF30.


Sorry to hear this JCB 

Unfortunately I feared they would kinda "wash their hands" of this and leave you to sort out this mess .

On (I think) the 29er forum one guy received his frame with a crushed headtube . Solution - hammer it back to shape (it had aluminium headset races bonded in) and then epoxy over it then paint it himself . With little or no recompense . And this was deemed entirely acceptable by the vendor sadly .
The western world seems to have a very different attitude towards customer service than any Asian country IME .

They seem quite prepared to have the full amount refunded from their account rather than offer the cost of a solution . Maybe a BB converter of some sort in your case . :crazy:

Hope you get a satisfactory result from this soon JCB ?

Fat Biker

P.S. Did you ever receive your axles etc ?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh- I forgot to mention that MB seemed somewhat willing to, maybe, help pay for the BB. 
Jenny's email asked what such a fix might cost. 

Thanks Suffer. I was wondering how MB learned of this thread. 

I have so much overlap between frames (many 27.2 seatposts, compatible axle systems, 1 1/8th stems... etc) that I can completely agree with your desire to have interchangeable parts for your bikes. 
I have a winter town bike (Karate Monkey) that just might get a make over of sorts in order to ride the Co Trail this summer. 
Pretty much everything can be pulled from boxes (or this MB!) and I'll have a nice sturdy (tank-like) bike to use. It'd easily take large frame bag easier than my Ti frames. 


Given that the frame was ordered in late January and I'm still ironing out issues I'm bummed. 

But really, although I'm dealing w/ several issues, they boil down to:
-Poor handling issues.
They sent the wrong F axle, and no TA dropouts.
-Country of origin issues.
Once they realize they had an issue w/ the F axle, they worked to send one out, it's just not here yet.
Even though MB has tried to get me the correct TA dropouts and F axle, they are mired in the depths of international shipping. Either lost or stuck in customs or whatever issues that are beyond MBs control. The only problem that MB holds responsibility for is not moving fast to send the correct parts. 
-Poor quality control in regards to the BB.
No idea what happened at MB w/ this. A worker didn't use enough glue, not the correct glue.... I dunno. 
-Very slow response (and perhaps unwilling) to do much to rectify this situation. 

As a half full type of guy, I'm just glad to be tripping over great bikes, friends, and places to ride (WRim in a day on Monday? Anyone? Anyone?) while this MB frame gets ironed out. 
In time, the correct F axle and rear drops will show up in my PO Box. 
And if MB completely drops the ball w/ any type of warranty or care due the BB issues- well I guess it lets us know more about the pitfalls of such a purchase but I went into this knowing it was a bit of an experiment. 
And if I choose to glue in my own solution to the BB, at least it's a relatively low cost fix.
I'd just buy the adhesive. Despite what is probably good advice- I'd skip the praxis or other conversion. 

Fat- it definitely is headed the direction we all expected, even if we were hoping for MB to step up more. 
-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

All this waiting for correct parts to show up sure does put a damper on a fella's new bike buzz 


Fat Biker

P.S Ghetto tubeless conversion testing on the Fatty tomorrow (if it stays up overnight  LOL ) for me .


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I just saw the tracking number FINALLY updated. First time since I've clicked it 10,000 times stating March 23rd. 
Some parts are in the US now. 
One more, teeny hurdle, soon to be cleared. 

Fat- I keep seeing all these amazing varieties of duct tape. Every color and style. Even one that is just Mac and Cheese. 
I'm not a fat bike guy (yet) but just might convert over so I can run some of that classy tape and hv it show thru the big relief holes in the rims. 
That or I'll just drill holes in my carbon rims. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I just saw the tracking number FINALLY updated. First time since I've clicked it 10,000 times stating March 23rd.
> Some parts are in the US now.
> One more, teeny hurdle, soon to be cleared.
> 
> ...


If you think you enjoy cycling now , try and remember how much you enjoyed it as a kid . 
Well for me that's just what fat biking has done . I'm of an age (and fitness) now where speed isn't the name of the game . It's great to be able to still get up hills that I could as a kid (and more) , but better to go down them with more traction and speed in the corners than I ever could .

Fat biking certainly makes ya (grin) muscles ache though ha ha ha ha :arf:

Now back to our regular programming . . . . . . .carbon cyclocross 

Fat Biker

P.S. N+1 bikes


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fat-
Are you a Stan's guy? Or have you whipped up some homebrew concoction of glitter and cat litter for your homebrew tubeless?

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Fat-
> Are you a Stan's guy? Or have you whipped up some homebrew concoction of glitter and cat litter for your homebrew tubeless?
> 
> -JCB


Was a Stans guy but changed a while back to some unknown brew from a local roadie bike shop.









It's thin but gum's up quite quickly . Better than stans and no boogers either so far .
I would like to try some proper home brew next though .

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Update*

Two things-
Miracle has been great. Jenny is doing what she can to fix this issue. 
She is asking for solutions from me, and even offering to replace the frame.

So let me ask you all this.
Those of you that are familiar w/ my frame's issues- What solution would you work towards?

Here are the options as I see them. 
-New Frame? I like the idea but will probably be responsible for the shipping back. Let's say that's about oh... A zillion dollars. Probably not an option. I think UPS charges about $90 per pound. 
-Go BB30. Nope- I'm sticking w/ a BSA 
-Praxis style BSA adapter stuffed into the frame? Perhaps, but I don't know much about them. I like that they are removable. 
-Glue in the current BSA adapter properly? 
-Properly glue in a new BSA adapter?

I think Miracle might balk at paying for a praxis or wheels manufacturing adapter, but I'm leaning towards those as a first choice.

Anything else I'm missing here? What other options are there?

-JCB


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

I do not like BB30 so i only get frames with BSA. Mainly because I have heard way to many stories of creaks and issues with them. I also have heard many stories of adapters moving. But since getting a new frame is out of the question, I would go with the Praxis as they seem to have the least complaints. I personally don't like the idea of fixing it with glue/epoxy because it is so critical to make sure everything is cleaned and properly prepped for the glue/epoxy to adhere properly. Even the big brand carbon frames have problems with glued in fasteners coming loose, my Santa Cruz TRC comes to mind as well as older FSA K Force cranksets.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks LJ.
The idea of removable does appeal to me for reapplying grease (in the combat of creaks) and such. 
There seem to be several screw in variants. I'll research and see what I can learn. 
And, as usual, you'll know more when I do. 

And to be clear- If this was a US sourced frame- the answer would be easy. Here's the old one, where's my new one? 
But, the hurdles I'm jumping over were known at the start. 
If there was going to be a problem, I anticipated it would be a self rescue. 
But even so, MB seems to be stepping up much more than we expected. 

Prospective buyers: 
-I'm the only MB bottom bracket issue I've heard of. 
Don't be lured into that internet logic of "I hear there are issues w/ the BB" when I'm the only issue. 

-MB has been slow but helpful in all problems. The F axle issue has been solved (my correct axle should be here today, along w/ the TA rear drop outs).

So, in short, I still think my situation is a fluke. Plenty of other MBs rolling around w/o problems. 
If you are on the fence- there is reason to be there but also plenty of reason to buy. 
But- ask me again in week to see if I'm up and running!


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Hi JCB,

I would try the new frame route IF: 1). MB could demonstrate a suitable engineering fix to the insert or a molded in BSA. Personally I like BSA as well, and have a Santa Cruz mtn bike with BSA and so far has been flawless. In addition, they are very flexible, reliable, user friendly and economical to change out BB. 2). MB employs their shipping vendor to return your frame at no cost to you (except maybe you packing it up and dropping it off at some hub). As a compromise you might consider getting it unpainted. From a MB perspective this would be the most attractive/economical as they have to pay only for the raw materials - I assume that their overhead is allocated over all production, so nearly free to them. To them a new frame is likely less costly than the praxis solution. 3). you pitch that you will evangelize MB service, support and attention to this issue if they meet your terms

Best of luck


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Hi JCB
You make a good point with the single data point, and many others with no issues. Actually, I have placed an order with MB for this frame. From what I see it is an isolated incident, and MB is doing their best to service you as an customer. At this time it is worth the risk - but as you say, ask me in a week or two when I get the frame.
-SF


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Miracles do happen!
My TA and F axle are here. 
Two sets of rear drops actually. 
That means I'm sitting on two sets of the QR drop outs. 
Anyone need a set of the QRs?

I'll keep both TA and one QR for who knows what events.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

JCB. Good to hear things are working out. As to your BB issue and your question, I would go with one of two options:

1) If you are willing to spend the money, go with the Praxis. It seems pretty damn solid and easy from what I can tell. Should fix it up with no issues. I would go with this over the new frame because 
-- a) You have an otherwise perfectly good frame
-- b) It would probably cost you as much or more for the shipping for a new frame
-- c) You would have to wait longer for that than for the Praxis (most likely)

2) If you would rather not spend the $90 on the Praxis, I would re-glue in the existing BSA adapter. I say this for me (ymmv) for the following reasons:
-- a) I have no problem with DIY stuff like this and it usually works out really well for me (I watch youtube vids and do research before any new attempt)
-- b) From the pictures it looks like the one that is in there is really easy to align properly with matching cutouts. Just do your research about how to prep the surfaces, and use the epoxy someone else mentioned in this thread earlier and you should have a perfect BB.

Just my 2c on what I would do.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*You all seem like nice people...*

....and you've been very helpful. 
I don't want to freak you out but I have some news.

The insanity of the front axle is over. 
Yep. The axle that MB sent weeks ago is now in my hand, well on the bike, and it's PERFECT. 
If the axle is holding back your purchase- that issue is seemingly solved. 
And- the rear drop outs are also installed and PERFECT.

So there folks. 
That issue is now over. 
May JCB not waste anymore of your time w/ this particular issue.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> Bit confused here Snake  you seem to realise PF86 and BSA are different physically . Then you seem to be saying if JCB pushes the BSA BB sleeve out he'll be left with a 41mm diameter x 86mm wide shell that would be ready to accept a PF86 BB ?
> 
> A BSA shell is either 68mm wide (usually old skool road bike and some MTB's) or 73mm wide (new skool MTB's and some road bikes) (all this excluding 100 mm and 120mm fat bikes shells that utilise BSA threading of course ) . The only thing I can see as being possible here is the shell is a BB30 (be it carbon or alloy but still 68mm wide as per BB30 specs) and they forgot to bond JCB's alloy BSA sleeve in .
> 
> Fat Biker


Yes, sorry, brain fart. With PF on both my bikes now I've kind of put shell width to the back of my mind because you are not obliged to run the cups with the central sleeve. For example, I've a SM-BB91-41a (XTR) in this Cx frame without the sleeve. Although I think the Ican shell diameter is off ever so slightly (too big). As such the cups fit too easily, and have started a small creak when sprinting hard out of the saddle. I'm going to try a SM-BB91-42A to address this issue. Information on what this BB is for is very hard to find. As its cups only/no central sleeve though I'm not too worried so long as its a secure fit.

I accept that the BB30 PF would also be a no go for JCB's MB Cx as the shell width is wider then BSA too.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Yes, 38's or 50's. Ideally a 50 on the back and a 38 on the front. Something that can be run tubeless AND at high road pressures if required. A rim that will do road and Cx basically, without going tubular. I'm looking at Light Bicycles offerings. A lot of the guys here are using their carbon rims for MTB enduro applications without fault.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Two things-
> Miracle has been great. Jenny is doing what she can to fix this issue.
> She is asking for solutions from me, and even offering to replace the frame.
> 
> ...


My two cents;
-Accept replacement frame on the basis that they collect yours at their cost. 
-Or Buy a new frame on the basis that they discount it by the amount it costs you to return the faulty one. You'll be out of pocket until they receive it though, and you'd want them to waiver the prospect of it being damaged in transit. Just an idea, but it might be difficult to convey to them.
-Glue in the current BSA adapter, this would be the quickest solution to get the bike going. I don't see why it wouldn't work if done properly.
-Use a praxis adapter, if you can't get the glue option to work. I'd still do the glue thing with this though.

EDIT: oh, i see you've bought a frame now. Good stuff. I hope that you receive it as soon as possible.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Let's all put our hands together for Jenny at Miracle.*

If any of you are like me, you may have hoped that Miracle would come through and be a good company but you reserved the right to guess that they wouldn't do what was best by me.

Well- they did right. They did very right. 
Enough so that I would consider using MB again for a purchase.

I need to put this down loudly and clearly-
I AM VERY HAPPY WITH HOW MB DEALT W/ THIS PROBLEM.

After plenty of emails back and forth, Jenny credited my PayPal account enough for a Praxis BB.

I would have been astounded if they compensated me for shipping back to China. 
In reality- why would they? No US company will pay shipping back to their business either. Many warranties explicitly read that shipping costs are to be covered by the owner.

In the end, I think I will use a Wheels Manufacturing Eccentric BB30 converter. 
Wheels Mfg - Eccentric Bottom Brackets

After the credit It'll cost me a bit more but, in the end, I'll have a better chain tensioner system than the YESS unit I'm using. 
I'll still have the option of BB30 or BSA. And I can adjust the BB height.

All in all- I am happy and pleasantly surprised with the results.
I'd probably use MB again. 
Even if it's just more experimentation to see just how such low cost carbon options can work out.

When I have the eccentric BB and the thing is FINALLY finished- I'll write it up and take some photos.

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Well colour me SHOCKED :yikes: here JCB. 
I for one never thought you'd get an outcome like this. 
Judging by how *some* of the Chinese vendors treat their western customers. 
It just goes to show you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

As you quite rightly say Jenny has stepped up to the plate and deserves credit (pun intended) for this.

I must admit , even though you were the only one with an issue , I was extremely put off by your experience .

Now though they are well and truely back in the picture .

Just my 2¢ here though (not that you asked for it , but when did that ever stop me ? LOL) I would hold off purchasing the Wheels Manufacturing BB adapter just yet , and I would try and bond the original shell back in first . Just to prove it can be done if nothing else . But that's just me 

Fat Biker

P.S. Congrats 

BTW this does mean we require some fully built up artistic shots her now too.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fat-
You sounds like my best pal. 
MB gives me $90- so I spend it on a new eccentric BB that actually costs more than $90.
Steevo is like- borrow somebodies green loctite- glue that retarded BSA back in, go ride. 
Put the $90 towards something else. 
Yes- a totally sensible situation. That I ignore. 
A bit like all the sound advice I requested and was given in this thread.
My sole defense is that I don't like the bar/saddle relation on this frame so the enormous 7mm drop of the new BB should be substantial. 
Yea... right. 

JCB-"What BSA adapter should I use?"
MTBR-"Praxis"
JCB-"OK! Thanks. You guys are great. I'm not going to do that."

But yes- you'll get some shots soon.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Alternatively sell the frame you have as a BB30 frame. The money you'll lose will be offset by the $90 and you could buy the frame size you really want (with a colour you like this time LOL) ??? 

Just a thought :idea: :lol: :ihih: 


Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Clever Mr Fat. Clever. 
But no- after consideration of the schematics- the frame is the size I should be on. 
And as for color, well I'm just hard to please. It's too red. 
Too many people said Hey! Nice Bike! during initial ride bys. 

Over lunch I did knock out the BSA sleeve.
I won't say that a sick kitten just out of chemo could have done it, but it came out easily. 
from the blemishes (or the lack of) on the sleeve, I'd bet there was little or possibly Zero adhesive used.


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## Dibbs_ (Feb 17, 2009)

pics please! (whole bike)


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm waiting on the eccentric BB to arrive. After that, I'll post photos. 
I promise I won't pull the usual MTBR "ride report to follow!" and never be heard from again. 

And for what it's worth? I've been on MTBR for years and this thread has been by far the most helpful. 
The community effort at helping to keep me up to date w/ BB standards and other issues has been fantastic. 

So much better than the bashing and anger found elsewhere. 
thanks everyone.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

I want to agree that this thread has been incredibly helpful. I placed an order for two frames with custom paint 5 weeks ago. I was warned that there would be a wait for custom paint, but I didn't expect it to take quite this long. I sent an email a couple of days ago to ask about the status and finally got a response with a picture of the completed paint on one of the frames. It looks really good and exactly like what I asked for. I asked for BSA bottom bracket, and right now it looks like an empty hole awaiting a threaded BSA sleeve. That's fine with me as long as it works. I'm looking forward to getting the frames.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Spencer-
Can you post photos of your frames with their paint?
-JCB


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd love to post a picture, but I don't see a way to do so. It might be because I'm too new on this forum. The forums on bikeforums.net require a certain number of posts before that is enabled for users.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

qspencer said:


> I'd love to post a picture, but I don't see a way to do so. It might be because I'm too new on this forum. The forums on bikeforums.net require a certain number of posts before that is enabled for users.


Yeah I think that's the case here too Spencer. 
So hurry up and post some drivel already to boost th hat post count.

Rule no. 1 around here never *never NEVER* tell us you have something new / different without posting pics.

Rule no. 2 absolutely NEVER tell us you *have* pics already *without* posting ! ! !

This kind of behaviour will have the boys round with a wet lettuce with which to give you a good slapping.  :lol:

Fat Biker


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

I think I figured out how to attach the picture. Let's try this and see if it works.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Looks like it worked. This is the 58cm frame. I also ordered the 48 cm frame with the same paint job. I ordered a set of Mavic Crossride wheels and a Shimano 105 group. Thanks to comments earlier on this thread, I'm aware that modern road 11 speed groups may not be compatible with MTB freehubs. After a good deal of research, I concluded that there might be wheel options that combine 11 speed road and 142x12 axle compatibility, but they would have added more cost than I wanted to. If it looks like the cassette won't work with the freehub, my plan B is to remove a cog from the cassette and run it as a 10 speed group.

I searched the internet for someone who would sell the Shimano road groups without caliper brakes for a good price. Eventually I found what I was looking for (including a good deal on the Mavic wheelsets) at starbike.com in Germany. I think I am benefitting from the current strength of the US dollar against the Euro because the final price when converted to dollars seemed better than anything I had found advertized in the US.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Really nice rig qspencer. I ordered an unpainted version a few weeks ago in the 56cm size (I'm about 5'10"). I plan to go 1x10 with just a Shimano DuraAce bar end shifter. I'll likely go with a 36T up front and a 11-36T in back. I have this on another gravel grinder type bike and it works very well. I can climb just about anything, and I spin out at about 28mph. For brake levers, I"m going with Cane Creek levers and cross top levers on Salsa Cowbells. These levers work pretty well paired with Avid BB5s i'm running. I bought a pair of BB7 from Bike Discount (germany as well). Great deals. For a wheelset, I'm going with an older pair of Hope/Mavic 217s that I already have. I think I just need to buy new front spacers as the front rim is set up for 20mm axles. I haven't figured out how to post a pic either, but if you want any ideas on the drivetrain or brake set up I can try to snap a few and post them. I plan to set up this new bike nearly identical to the one I have now.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Why two such similar bikes Suffer?
And as someone with too many bikes, I'm not judging. Just curious!
-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

JCB - you scared the hell out of me with that question. I initially thought my wife was disguising herself as JCB,,,, and she was trolling these sites to monitor my bike expenditures. :nono:

My current road bike is a very cheap (ebay -sub $100 frame) orgin8 CX700 Chromoly bike. Nice ride, heavy (~30lbs), lots of attachment points for bags, fenders, has track dropouts for SS option, handles up to 2.2" tires, disc brakes, etc. I have young kids so the attachment points are now used for a child seat and a pack for the kids. I guess I just wanted to get into a race style cx bike for under $1000 that has part-spec redundancies to my mountain bike,,,,and one that does not have a back seat, or attachments to install one.  

So back to the forum - The 1x10 mtn set up has worked out pretty nicely with my current rig so throwing it out for an option here for consideration. It's simple and robust,,, light too if you don't have a 15lb frame to deal with. But I'm guessing most will trick theirs out with a road group for full on CX riding. I think I will have more a comfortable adventure setup for go (almost) anywhere ability. I'd like to get at least 40mm tires on there. 

Heard from Jenny this morning. My frame is done and will ship this week. Roughly a 10day turnaround, very quick. I'll report back when I get the frame, and hopefully by then be able to figure out how to post some pics.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Just a quick update on my order from MB. I mentioned in an earlier post that I did not receive my headset with my frame order, but I was just going to let it go because they did include a seatpost clamp, plus I already have a headset that I can use. 

I mentioned it to Jenny at MB, and she went ahead and sent out the headset to me. Just received it today, and it also includes a compression plug instead of a start nut, which is pretty cool. I haven't used a compression plug before, but it seems like better technology than a star nut. 

Another +1 for MB's customer service, and Jenny will be getting my future orders (assuming I get permission to order any more bike stuff from the boss-wife)!


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Hey guys...

So I have been following through some of these pages and I just want to verify something.

I want a CX frame that can handle 142x12 rear and 100x15 front so that I can use my mountain bike wheels on it during the winter. I don't like riding a FS bike with expensive shocks during the winter just to commute and stay in shape and I want a CX bike.

I just can't afford to own a set of expensive wheels for all these different bikes. 

I'd also like it to be PF30 or BB30 because those cranks seem to be cheaper and lighter and I have a truvativ x9 26/39 laying around anyway 

Thanks

Will


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Will- this frame/fork will fit that bill no problem. 
I've been happy to read that so many of us like the crossover of parts between our bikes. 

My Wheels Manufacturing Eccentric BB showed up yesterday. Does anyone know the difference between mountain and road crank spindles? I can't say the exact dimension, but road is more narrow. 
So- JCBs is waiting for MORE stuff. Dang. 
Wheels is sending me a few small spacers. 

I tell you what guys. At this point if I ordered a presta cap and actually needed schrader- I'd put this project on the hook until fall.
At nearly every turn, there's a yet another minor hurdle. Arrggg. I think I'll just call it the "Life" bike although actualy using it might indeed be a Miracle. 
-JCB


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

Road cranks have a 5mm narrower spindle.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

I don't think you actually want to ride this bike JCB  LOL

You just keep *looking* for problems . 

Measure your BB shell width first . This will be the deciding factor here (should be 68mm as discussed earlier - BB30/BSA )

If it is 68mm *AND* you're using a road crank (some MTB cranks are configured to use a 73mm BB shell hence a longer spindle) then you should be good to go .
If not fit the eccentric BB as per manufacturer instructions and torque specs . 
Next fit the BB bearing cups of your choice , and torque to spec . Now you can measure the *TOTAL WIDTH* of the BB .
Next take the crank and fit it together *OFF* the bike , torque to spec and measure the distance between the arm faces along the spindle . 
Subtract this your previously measured BB width from the distance between the arms . 
You should be left with either 5mm or 7.5mm . If it is slightly more i.e. +1-1.5mm then you may need to include a wavy compression washer . 
If you have 5mm then a 2.5mm spacer on each side . 
If you have 7.5mm then it's 2x2.5mm on one side (should be drive side) and one 2.5mm on the other . 
You may need to experiment with which side you put 2 spacers on to adjust for optimal chainline .

One point to note is that in my reading I have found that MTB BB cups have a longer threaded section on the drive side to allow for 2x2.5mm spacers *plus* a BB mounted front derailleur . You may need to run MTB BB cups to allow for the spacers *and *to have enough length of thread engaged . Be aware though that if you don't need to run the spacers and you're using the MTB cups you could bottom the threads in the Wheels Manufacturing eccentric BB before you reach full torque . Bare in mind that I'm not familiar with the exact architecture of this specific BB so you could be fine . It was just mentioned in the reading during my research when fitting MTB BB cups to road frames . YMMV

HTH ?

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

ljsmith said:


> Road cranks have a 5mm narrower spindle.


This used to be true.
But now it depends on the manufacturer and crank model .
Most manufacturers these days are making cranks both road and MTB that cover multiple BB standards .
There is no hard and fast rule that road cranks are one set width and MTB cranks are another set width .
Sorry.

Fat Biker


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey Givmedew,

Just my 2 cents, but my 29er wheels with 1.95" tires won't fit on my new MB cyclocross frame. The tires are too big, and the frame doesn't have enough clearance on the rear. You would need a smaller tire - not sure what's out there in terms of mtb tires, but there are plenty of cyclocross tires that would fit obviously. I'm not sure how cyclocross tires would work on a mtb wheelset with the rim widths being different, etc. I think MB quoted me as 700 x 35 being the largest tire that could fit on this frame.

I had a custom wheelset built for my setup, but I won't be switching wheels between my cross and mtb.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Gluddy and GiveMe-
I'm using WTB KOM rims (i23). 
WTB says they are great for XC, Trail, and even Enduro. 
W/ a pair of WTB Nano 40c tires- they fit though I'm not looking forward to the first mudfest wearing all the paint, then carbon off the rear stays. 
If you're looking to run your mountain wheels in the winter, this mtn rim and this sort of CX tire work great. 

Fat-
It's definitely a 68mm BB shell in the frame. And it's definitely made to be BB30 w/o the BSA sleeve inside. 
The WM eccentric slips in perfectly as it's made to fit the 42mm shell of a BB30. 
But- it's made for a road length spindle. In my narrow world, an EBB is made for SS, and SS is best on dirt. I suppose WM could have made this EBB for those CX riders wanting a SS but it sure seems specialized. No way am I the first to use this EBB w/ a mountain crank, but it's the only hiccup w/ it that I know of. 

The WM eccentric can't be spaced. The cups insert into the BB30 bearing area and there's... oh... perhaps 7mm worth of depth to them? Small enough that you wouldn't want to lose what little contact there is between the EBB and the shell. 

The WM EBB isn't threaded for outboard bearings. The bearings are already in place. It's actually very cool and would be even more slick w/ a road crank but there will be none of that (in the spirit of bike continuity) in my home than you very much! My one road bike is used rarely enough that I won't be polluting my parts pool w/ more weirdo road parts. And don't get me started on Quack factor. 

Anyway-
I'll determine the spacing of this set up and stuff a few spacers in and see where that gets me. 

Woke up to more snow today. Spring likes to taunt Colorado.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Gluddy and GiveMe-
> I'm using WTB KOM rims (i23).
> WTB says they are great for XC, Trail, and even Enduro.
> W/ a pair of WTB Nano 40c tires- they fit though I'm not looking forward to the first mudfest wearing all the paint, then carbon off the rear stays.
> ...


D'oH !

My bad . Sorry JCB.

I see now . I even looked at the Wheels Manufacturing web site to look up the BB you have . 
Still didn't notice it's a BB in it's own right NOT a BB adapter. 
That's what 4hrs kip a night does for ya LOL :madman:
And hence why you would be rightly confused as to fitting the spacers betwixt frame and said BB 
I heard a rumor somewhere that if you're in a pickle some plastic pipe of the 24mm internal diameter variety can be custom cut to create your own crank spindle spacers . :idea:

Again apologies for the confusion .
I shall endeavor to engage brain before flapping my pie hole in future (Though this cannot be guaranteed   )

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fat- 
You just settle down there mister. 
Your help has been valuable and uh... helpful. 

Keep the answers coming. 
-JCB


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Finished? No- it will never be finished. But, it's close enough.*

Done. 
Well, dang close. WM is sending some spacers for the axle spindle.
Once I have those, I'll pull the bearing grease guards that I'm running now. And we'll see what's next.

Of the hurdles and stumbles, I'm pretty happy w/ the white spokes. 
And if you're going to get on me about the spacers- well I won't argue. It's plenty but upright it good by me. 12 hours in the saddle makes me like being up more than caring what's correct. 








The WM eccentric BB really helped clean up the drivetrain but an option other than red would have been nice. 
































All in all, it's a very clean and great build. 
I'll likely make a new thread about this build so that new buyers don't have to sift thru 14 pages of my complaining about dropouts and axles.

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Now doesn't she look fine 
Well worth the hassle don't ya think JCB ?

Ya ride what fits / makes *you* comfortable. Screw what anyone else thinks . Hell fit somemore spacers in there if it makes you more comfortable .

As to your dislike of your colour choice, how about some graphics ? In black and a nice font like your inspiration photo. 
You could call her the "Bone Shaker" no ? LOL

My personal choice though. I would have fitted a white seatpost. But that's my OCD matching stem and seatpost colour  LOL

Fat Biker

P.S. Congratulations on a fine looking bike sir


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fat-
I'm sitting on Moots stickers and that's what I wanted to put in that white area. 
But now I'm leaning towards a slick set of old Salsa stickers. Back from a mid 90s steel CX bike I still have. 
Making fun of Moots w/ a carbon low cost frame cracks me up but I have almost too much respoect for the Salsa to do it! That bike has taken me many places I shouldn't have taken it!
Iceland, Great Divide, cross country. Man I love me some Salsa. Don't get me started. 
Wait- too late. If ever I had Spectrum repaint the old beast, I'd want some fresh stickers too!

When I started the build, I wanted to use old parts. But, as I've said, JCBs wanted his cool stuff so all the old parts didn't make it. 
Old bars, rims, cranks, spokes, stem, levers.... 
One of the few bits that did make it was the black post. 
It would look cool in white.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah the old skool Salsa font is bang on the type of font I was thinking. Not too familiar with the Moots brand other than the defacto ti super brand. Maybe if you did a twist or parody on a Moots name ? Be warned make it obvious though cos the haters will come out in their droves to besmirch you. They don't like it when you use "real" manufacturer names on "cheap Chinese carbon" frames. 

PMSL I can't believe that the ONLY old part that made it was the seatpost. After spending what you have and not buying new. 
Does the church of OCD not "demand" you change it immediately ? 
Ah costs need to be cut somewhere I hear you say. Then to that I say you cannot be a true follower of the chuch. 
As penance I sentence you to a full tubeless conversion with only a hand pump 


Fat Biker

P.S. I have some ideas regarding names for my own steed? If ever I can get the funds together for long enough before SWMBO gets her hands on it


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Done.
> Well
> 
> All in all, it's a very clean and great build.
> ...


So what bike is that? Link? How much? Is it 142x12 rear?

I didn't know you could the Chinese bikes with paint

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> So what bike is that? Link? How much? Is it 142x12 rear?
> 
> I didn't know you could the Chinese bikes with paint
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's the MC286 from Miracle Bikes. They will do custom paint jobs for an extra $60. I believe this is fairly common, as I've ordered a different frame through Velo Build Mall with custom paint for about the same price as well.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Whoa there Fat. 
There are also old pedals and a ratty tattered old seat. Easy now.....
Oh god... That can't be true right? Surely I re-used more than a post, pedals, and seat....

I feel sick.... 
But it's true. And awful. 

burp...


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep. 
Miracle. 
$480 for frame/fork.
$80 to ship to US.
$60 for paint. Some paid $50 for paint. 

I added 15 for a headset, 5 for the seat collar, and 23 for the thru axles (that have to be there's. None other fit correctly). 
TA rear (142/12) or QR rear.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's a very sleek version of what I was headed towards. 
Really cool internal cable route. 
SOC15: Open Cycles gets closer to the road with Unbeaten Path gravel bike


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Yeah, me too (look headed for) but not the - Frame and fork is $2,900 in S, M, L and XL sizes. That is one costly frame. I'm pretty sure you can do a whole build with MB for far less than the cost of this frame/fork. Personally, I like your rig better for a fraction of the price. BTW, what gear ratio are you using on the SS? and are you not using a chain tensioner,, or does the offset BB allow you to snug up the chain by rotation. From the pics it looks like you have BB clocked at 6 o'clock.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Suffer-
I'm running a 36/17 on the MBSSCX. 
When it comes to dirt, I know what gearing I like. This is so experimental I don't yet know what will suit the terrain I intend to use it on. 

The chain tension is handled w/ the Wheels Manufacturing eccentric BB.
Had I known how cool this gadget is (and how well I anticipate it's function) I would have gone w/ the BB30 in the first place to use it. 

I had hoped the BB would be as low as I could get it for a better bar/seat relation. 
So yep, about 6.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks JCB, I now have slight regrets ordering the BSA version. This piece of kit can add some nice flexibility - like adding track dropout to this frame spec.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

I'd like to confirm a dimension on the MC website. I'm awaiting my frame delivery and would like to ensure that the items I have will fit. The MB website is in conflict with itself and states in it's specs: Seat Tube: For diameter 31.6mm seat post, but in the outline geometry drawing just below, it states SP 27.2mm I see that in an earlier thread it states 27.2mm. Can anyone confirm that has receive a frame recently. Thx


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes- that had me worried too. 
My frame is definitely 27.2
Delivered in Feb.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Yes, Jenny already confirmed the specs on the website are incorrect. Her recommendation is that I use the seatpost (31.6mm) on another frame that has a 31.6mm interface. I don't quite understand that logic, but I'll see if I can return it.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Thinking of building a bike with this frame + the new SRAM Rival1 groupset. Any reasons why I shouldnt do it? (Getting the BSA threaded BB to work with GXP).


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

w0lla said:


> Thinking of building a bike with this frame + the new SRAM Rival1 groupset. Any reasons why I shouldnt do it? (Getting the BSA threaded BB to work with GXP).


And why would you think "Getting the BSA threaded BB to work with GXP" would be a problem ? 
Just buy a GXP BB and fit it. Job done no issues whatsoever. Both are based on the same width shells both use the same thread standards. 
Provided the crank is GXP there should not be a problem.

Fat Biker


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

that was a stupid way for me to put it.. the "Any reasons why I shouldnt do it" was aimed for the groupset itself.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

w0lla said:


> that was a stupid way for me to put it.. the "Any reasons why I shouldnt do it" was aimed for the groupset itself.


LOL I see now D'oH !

No, there are no problems that I could see. You do mean the new 1x groupset don't you ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

As the buyer with seemingly the most headaches using this frame, nope. 
No reasons not to. 

I'm short on actual mileage. Prob still under 200 total miles on the Miracle but it's been great. 
-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

w0lla said:


> Thinking of building a bike with this frame + the new SRAM Rival1 groupset. Any reasons why I shouldnt do it? (Getting the BSA threaded BB to work with GXP).


w0lla I'm expecting to receive a BSA version if this frame this week and plan on a GPX BB and a sram road crank that I have laying around. I'll let you know if any issues, but like the fat biker said, should be seamless as all interfaces are standard. The rest of the group should be fine. you might want to look into the cassette and rear hub for fitment tho. Not 100% sure if road and mtn cassettes are interchangeable spacing-wise. Most on this thread will know. Just a watch out if you have mtn wheels and get that group.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Gonna see if I can get the cx1 cheaper now that "2016" was announced. Thinking to build wheels on the dt350 hubs (maybe grail rim) with either a 11speed freehub or the XD from sram depend on what set I will go with. 

Suffer fest how are you building the bike?


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

w0lla said:


> Gonna see if I can get the cx1 cheaper now that "2016" was announced. Thinking to build wheels on the dt350 hubs (maybe grail rim) with either a 11speed freehub or the XD from sram depend on what set I will go with.
> 
> Suffer fest how are you building the bike?


Mostly from spare mtn bike parts. Drivetrain will be a 1x10 DuraAce bar end shifter to XT rear der., and 42T to 11-36T. Hope hubs with mavic 29er hoops. BB7 brakes and cane creeh levers and topcross levers. Salsa cowbell bars. Pretty simple. Hoping for a sub-20lb, sub-$1000 utility machine.

In what i have learned from this thread I ordered the headset, both axles and seat post from MB. If you plan to order go through this thread. It's actually more accurate than the MB site.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

w0lla said:


> Gonna see if I can get the cx1 cheaper now that "2016" was announced. Thinking to build wheels on the dt350 hubs (maybe grail rim) with either a 11speed freehub or the XD from sram depend on what set I will go with.
> 
> Suffer fest how are you building the bike?


Oh BTW, both Starbike and Bike Discount in Germany have some nice prices on components and tires. It's about 20 bucks to ship, but with the weak euro vs $ it's considerable savings


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

As a long time LBS worker etc (now not in the bikes world) I hate to say it but-
If you want low USA pricing, ChainReaction is astoundingly cheap on some items.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> Mostly from spare mtn bike parts. Drivetrain will be a 1x10 DuraAce bar end shifter to XT rear der., and 42T to 11-36T. Hope hubs with mavic 29er hoops. BB7 brakes and cane creeh levers and topcross levers. Salsa cowbell bars. Pretty simple. Hoping for a sub-20lb, sub-$1000 utility machine.
> 
> In what i have learned from this thread I ordered the headset, both axles and seat post from MB. If you plan to order go through this thread. It's actually more accurate than the MB site.


Is it a 9 speed derailleur? 10 speed def won't work.

That said you shouldn't be running a long cage either. Most 9 speed XT derailleurs are long cage. It will work but no reason to do it chain will be slapping the crap out of your chain stay and you have a greater chance of the chain coming off in the lowest gear even if running a narrow wide). Just sell it on eBay and buy the correct parts for a few dollars more.

Also just thinking but honestly if you have top levers you might as well as just use trigger shifters. A medium cage clutch derailleur would be ideal. Shimano works with 10 speed shimano or 9 speed SRAM and then there is the 10 speed SRAM. The shimano has much less chain movement and allows you to run 9 (SRAM) or 10 speed. The SRAM has the easiest rear wheel removal in the world. Also the easiest to change a chain using the wheel removal lock to remove chain tension.

Anyways give it a thought. I bought my zee (stiffer than XTR but less than saint and weighs less than saint) with a $60 one up medium cage (designed to work better with 11-42 cassette) for $60 +$10 shipping used. Sold my old 9 speed derailleur for $40.

I'm going to use a small or medium cage SRAM Rival derailleur with 10 speed campy levers and top levers. The campys will pull hope cable to hydro brakes until hydro drop levers become affordable.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Choosing a rear hub and gearing is definitely a unique challenge with this frame. The frame bridges the road and MTB worlds at a time when the components from those two worlds are increasingly moving away from cross compatibility. When I ordered my frame, I just assumed I would order a road bike group and a pair of MTB wheels, without realizing that road 11 speed cassettes would not fit on MTB freehubs. The solution I settled on was using an 11 speed road group as 10 speed. I got the new Shimano 105 11 speed group with 11-32 cassette, and converted it to a 12-32 10 speed cassette by buying a 12t first and 13t second cog. I don't think I'll miss the 11 tooth cog anyway. I got the 105 group, Mavic Crossride wheelset, and some other parts I'll need for a great price from Starbike.com, the German shop mentioned earlier in this thread. I already got all of the parts and am just waiting on the frame.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

Dont Mavic freehubs take 11 speed anyway? I remember they took an extra spacer for 10 speed some years ago.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

syl3 said:


> Dont Mavic freehubs take 11 speed anyway? I remember they took an extra spacer for 10 speed some years ago.


I don't own any other recent Mavic hubs, but I had heard this and hoped it would be true of the wheelset I bought. Having tried to install an 11 speed road cassette on this particular hub, I can say that it definitely won't work. The Crossride, Crossmax and Crossroc wheelsets all use the same hub, which includes a so-called TS2 (Transfer System 2) freehub. It looks like it's meant to be an MTB specific design that appears likely not interchangeable with Mavic road freehub bodies.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

These new imcompatible standards are killing me and biking. 
It's not like I'm going to stop anytime soon, but it's certainly slowed down my desire for new bits/bikes that are only work within their little worlds. 
And don't get me started on the Fat Bike world/phenomenom!

-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> Is it a 9 speed derailleur? 10 speed def won't work.
> 
> That said you shouldn't be running a long cage either. Most 9 speed XT derailleurs are long cage. It will work but no reason to do it chain will be slapping the crap out of your chain stay and you have a greater chance of the chain coming off in the lowest gear even if running a narrow wide). Just sell it on eBay and buy the correct parts for a few dollars more.
> 
> ...


So is the index ratio of the 10 speed derailleur not compatible with the cassette spacing? I can't see how the derailleur would matter. It's a slave indexed by the master (shifter). Interested to learn about this. I guess I can run it in friction mode vs index mode


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> So is the index ratio of the 10 speed derailleur not compatible with the cassette spacing? I can't see how the derailleur would matter. It's a slave indexed by the master (shifter). Interested to learn about this. I guess I can run it in friction mode vs index mode


The cable pull length on dynasys is different than the cable pull on SIS/Mega9/Non dura ace 8/9 any Shimano 10.

I am fairly sure that any SIS/Mega9 derailleur is compatible with any 10 speed road system. I am absolutely certain that dynasys is only compatible with dynasys labeled shifters AND it is compatible with 9 speed MTB SRAM shifters and 9 speed SRAM or Shimano cassettes. I'm not sure if SRAM ROAD 9 is the same as SRAM MTB 9 though. Meaning I don't know if you can use SRAM road brifters with a dynasys derailleur.

I do know you can run SRAM 10 speed road derailleurs with campagnolo 10 speed road shifters! This setup is the bees knees in cyclecross. The shift and brake cables are hidden in the drop bars or under the tape so nothing to get caught on! They can up and down shift 1, 2, 3, or 4 gears at once! They have separate upshift and downshift parts. Downshift (bigger cog) where the break lever is just like Shimano or SRAM. Upshift with a little tab on the body near the top of the hoods.

No cables to snag.

Bar end shifters in the bottom of the drops are awesome for your long distance loaded up touring bike with drop bars. They suck for use under pressure. You can not shift while maintaining control of the bike.

Either do the SRAM/Campy setup that I have OR buy a dynasys clutch derailleur and use 10 speed Shimano trigger shifters or use 9 speed SRAM shifters on the tops near the top brakes.

I'll try to help you with any other drivetrain questions. No know most of but not all combos. I have most derailleur and shifters types at home to test different setups.

I have several 8, 9 and 10 speed derailleurs and shifters from SRAM and Shimano. Also like I said I have the campy levers. I also have some modifier pullies. For example you can run 10 speed campy on 9 speed Shimano derailleur with 9 speed cassette using a modifier pulley. They don't make them anymore because the guy died his son took over and then tanked the business.

Pictures are my zee derailleur with aftermarket cage for better 11-42 cassette usage w/ a PG-990 SRAM 9 speed cassette and a X9 9 speed shifter!

I will switch it back to 10 speed once my new shifter arrives in the mail. But for now I know that the 2 are compatible.

Last 2 pictures are the campy levers! I love them. Only pictures I had in my phone of them I can take better ones later.

Silver bike is a Niner Rip 9 and the yellow is a USA Cannondale CAAD3 SR-1000 which is a bike that has a 15mm shock built into the steerer if a carbon fiber fork. 19LBs with SRAM Rival Groupset Mavic Ksyrium wheels and those campy brifters.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew Thanks for the offer. As has been said many times in this thread, this frame is melding the mtn and road world with the complication of mfgers changing operational specs. I'm trying to use as much asaid stuff that I have on hand, which is mostly mtn stuff. XT rear der (med cage) with clutch (m786) and a shimano xt 11-30th cassette. I bought the DuraAce brifters to tie it all together, but thats not looking to promising based on your comments. I'd just go with the 9 speed XT rear derailleur(I have one), but I think there's interference with the largest cog on the cassette (36t). Have you run one of these 9 speed derailleur with a wide range cassette

I'm planning to keep the brifters. This is not intended to be a cross bike but more of a adventure bike - long hauls, 90:10 road dirt


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> Givmedew Thanks for the offer. As has been said many times in this thread, this frame is melding the mtn and road world with the complication of mfgers changing operational specs. I'm trying to use as much asaid stuff that I have on hand, which is mostly mtn stuff. XT rear der (med cage) with clutch (m786) and a shimano xt 11-30th cassette. I bought the DuraAce brifters to tie it all together, but thats not looking to promising based on your comments. I'd just go with the 9 speed XT rear derailleur(I have one), but I think there's interference with the largest cog on the cassette (36t). Have you run one of these 9 speed derailleur with a wide range cassette
> 
> I'm planning to keep the brifters. This is not intended to be a cross bike but more of a adventure bike - long hauls, 90:10 road dirt


You got to do brifters I thought you had said you where going to do bar end shifters like these things









Maybe I misunderstood. I was just saying that triggers would be better than bar end.

I'm kind of surprised the mid cage mega 9 has issues with a 36t when it's designed to run a 34t.

When I get home I can toss a 36 cassette on my bad boy ultra and shift all the way to the large cog. It lines up with the largest cog in the 9 speed cassette.

You might need to replace the b screw.

You def want a medium cage.

Also for the left brifter you need to put a cable through the shifter and then secure it in a way that you can put tension on it without pulling it out. Those brass cable stops with 2 set screws will work. Once you do that just shift it till it's super tight. This will make the shift lever firm instead of floppy.

Yeh it does suck that the dynasys doesn't work with road but the cable pull ratio are different because one serves road better and the other serves a clutch mech and mud better.

SHIMANO needs to wise up and offer a cross specific derailleur that works with road shifters! SRAM DOES TOO!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

I just took the plunge and ordered this frame, along with axles, seatpost, clamp, headset, etc.

As for groupset/wheels, it can be rough getting an 11 speed cassette on a good strong wheel. I am building my own, taking my bontrager mustang OSB, TLR rims (which I love, such amazing rims) and building them with some novatec 771/772 hubs I recently picked up (along with some pillar triple butted spokes).

As for the shifting, I have 105 11 speed brifters with ultegra front and XT 10 speed rear derailleurs. I had to modify the XT for the 11 speed cable pull length, so its not something readily available, but the clutch derailleur is pretty awesome for this application. 

I currently have this shifting set up on a 10 speed cross (frankenbike) I have been using for this purpose while deciding which carbon frame to get, and it works great. (I designed adjustability into the cable lever length so matching up to my 11 speed cassette with slightly reduced cog pitch should be no problem.)

For the masses, I would suggest either buying some proper MTB thru axle hubs that can take an 11 speed (of which there are several) and building the wheels yourself, or just go with a 10 speed set up. 10s MTB cassette match up perfectly fine with 10s shimano brifters. It's not like 10 speed is bad...

On the other hand, companies are starting to build wheels for 11 speed cross application, so they do exist, they just aren't generally cheap. The best bang for the buck I saw when designing the build were from light-bicycle at < $600 for nice carbon wheels, beadless and tubeless ready with the same hubs I have. (Which I am still considering, though I want to try my mustang's first.)


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Wahooo!!!! Another buyer waiting for his new frame! 
Did you go w/ any custom paint? 
Please post a photo or 3 once it arrives and after it's built. 

I can't overstate how surprised and happy I am with the BikeHubStore mtn hubs on the MB frame. 
They offer a pretty wide spread of axle variants and, w/ proper cassette spacers, can be about any spacing you'd like. 
QR, TA, and so on. 
And mine are (although getting louder) working great. 

-JCB


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> Givmedew Thanks for the offer. As has been said many times in this thread, this frame is melding the mtn and road world with the complication of mfgers changing operational specs. I'm trying to use as much asaid stuff that I have on hand, which is mostly mtn stuff. XT rear der (med cage) with clutch (m786) and a shimano xt 11-30th cassette. I bought the DuraAce brifters to tie it all together, but thats not looking to promising based on your comments. I'd just go with the 9 speed XT rear derailleur(I have one), but I think there's interference with the largest cog on the cassette (36t). Have you run one of these 9 speed derailleur with a wide range cassette
> 
> I'm planning to keep the brifters. This is not intended to be a cross bike but more of a adventure bike - long hauls, 90:10 road dirt


Assuming the DuraAce are 10s, I would recommend getting a shimano rear derailleur (unless you feel comfortable modifying the pull length on the 10s XT). A 5700 or 5800 (both will work) rear mech will run about $35 delivered. Its a small investment for a perfect solution, and should be all you need to fill out the set.

Edit: I just noticed you said 36t. I take it back. A 105GS MIGHT work, and a 9sp XT might work (It should clear the cog, but I think the lever is slightly off). I've seen mixed reports on the 9sp working with 10sp shimano brifters.

Personally, I say go for the 9sp XT (again, unless you want to modify the 10sp). It might take a bit to dial in, but I think it has a better chance of working vs. pita factor than the other options.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Wahooo!!!! Another buyer waiting for his new frame!
> Did you go w/ any custom paint?
> Please post a photo or 3 once it arrives and after it's built.
> 
> ...


I got the plain UD matte. I will be painting it a little bit, some stencils I made (probably in white) and maybe? a few semi-gloss (satin) or even gloss coats. over the whole thing, or maybe just some matte coats over the stenciled areas. I am not sure yet. I like the color of the carbon though and would like to preserve it.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Slyver said:


> On the other hand, companies are starting to build wheels for 11 speed cross application, so they do exist, they just aren't generally cheap.


That was what I noticed. The whole concept of a cross bike with 142x12 through axle hubs is starting to catch on with some mainstream manufacturers, but it's starting at the high end of the market. Same with Shimano 11 speed MTB. With the right derailleur cage, my 11 speed road setup would probably work with an 11 speed MTB cassette, which will work on my 10 speed hub, but right now it's only available at the XTR price level, and that 11th speed just wasn't worth that much extra money to me. Maybe in a year or two there will be better options.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

I think it's June/July for the XT 11s blocks according to Bike Rumor

"Availability for all the new XT components is generally June, with a few items expected a month or so later like the bigger 11-42 cassette, the single and triple ring cranks, and the Trail wheelsets. No word on pricing yet, but Shimano is having a launch event tonight in Monterey leading in to Sea Otter, and we'll see what else we can find out."

From this article

http://www.bikerumor.com

Hopefully considerably cheaper than XTR and maybe some components can be made to work with other groups/manufacturers ?

Fat Biker


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Slyver said:


> Assuming the DuraAce are 10s, I would recommend getting a shimano rear derailleur (unless you feel comfortable modifying the pull length on the 10s XT). A 5700 or 5800 (both will work) rear mech will run about $35 delivered. Its a small investment for a perfect solution, and should be all you need to fill out the set.
> 
> Edit: I just noticed you said 36t. I take it back. A 105GS MIGHT work, and a 9sp XT might work (It should clear the cog, but I think the lever is slightly off). I've seen mixed reports on the 9sp working with 10sp shimano brifters.
> 
> Personally, I say go for the 9sp XT (again, unless you want to modify the 10sp). It might take a bit to dial in, but I think it has a better chance of working vs. pita factor than the other options.


9 speed MTB derailleurs do not need modification unless you feel like replacing the bottom tension pulley (a little thinner)

SRAM 10 Speed MTB is compatible with Campy 10 speed and SRAM 10 speed road shifters.

SRAM 10 speed road derailleur is compatible with campy 10 speed shifter.

I use campy shifters on my SRAM stuff. The cables are hidden so nothing to snag on and they can shift up or down 4 gears at once. Campy shifters are also cheap and durable!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

does the frame finish (matte, glossy) matter for how the paint coating will be?


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

w0lla said:


> does the frame finish (matte, glossy) matter for how the paint coating will be?


No unless there is a way to get them to do a partial paint job that leaves some carbon showing through and even then probably no because If you order a painted bike I doubt they are finishing it with a glossy finish and then painting is again to finish it with a glossy finish.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

w0lla said:


> does the frame finish (matte, glossy) matter for how the paint coating will be?





Givmedew said:


> No unless there is a way to get them to do a partial paint job that leaves some carbon showing through and even then probably no because If you order a painted bike I doubt they are finishing it with a glossy finish and then painting is again to finish it with a glossy finish.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you mean a mixture of carbon, matt and glossy I would say it is entirely possible. I believe n1x0n's frame back in post #114 was originally UD matt.















Even if it is actually matt black and not bare UD I still think they could do what you're asking.

Hope n1x0n doesn't mind me reprinting his photos ? 

Fat Biker


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Ah I see, thanks. Want to do "glossy" aqua. Similar color to what yeti/santa cruz uses.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> You got to do brifters I thought you had said you where going to do bar end shifters like these things
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Givemedew - yes barends not brifters, sorry. I don't know these road terms and thought brifters was short for bar shifters, but brake/shifters makes more sense.

I found this article with a table of all shifter cable pulls, derailleur actuation and cog spacing. With this bike bridging road and mountain, maybe it will help if anyone is trying to mix application and manufacturers.

Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility

I guess I'd like to find a medium cage rear derailleur with a 1.7 shift ratio and a clutch for 1x10. Thanks to all for pointing this out.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Slyver said:


> I just took the plunge and ordered this frame, along with axles, seatpost, clamp, headset, etc.
> 
> As for groupset/wheels, it can be rough getting an 11 speed cassette on a good strong wheel. I am building my own, taking my bontrager mustang OSB, TLR rims (which I love, such amazing rims) and building them with some novatec 771/772 hubs I recently picked up (along with some pillar triple butted spokes).
> 
> ...


Can you provide any pics or details on the 10sp XT mods to convert from dynasys to standard 1.7 shift ratio? Did you mount the cable attachment at a different point on the cable attachment lever, and use a barrel adjuster to account for adjustment?? I would really like to utilize the clutched derailleur thats only available on the 10sp.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Edit the heck out this

So yes 10 speed SRAM mountain clutch derailleurs do indeed work with SRAM road shifters and campagnolo 10 speed road shifters.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Givmedew said:


> Edit the heck out this
> 
> So yes 10 speed SRAM mountain clutch derailleurs do indeed work with SRAM road shifters and campagnolo 10 speed road shifters.


Yeah, I'm running an X-7 T2 with Rival 10s.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Yeah, I'm running an X-7 T2 with Rival 10s.


Just be careful with SRAM brifters not sure if the Reds suffer from this but most break easily and there are not the necessary parts to repair.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12920479

Just use google there are tons of threads like that. People having it break then sending for a replacement then having the other side break a bit later.

Seams like reds last longer but still break sometimes. I have no issues with the campagnolo veloce levers and I'm quite hard on them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

alright,

Ordered the Frame, Axles, headset, seatpost+clamp. UD Matte. 
Wheelset will be: DT350 hubs with ZTR grail rims. 32H. 
For groupset, still deciding. Instead of Force CX1 setup I can go full Rival 22 Hydraulic and save some $$. Or shimano 105 with TRP Spyre SLC.

Additional stuff to buy:

Tires (38mm) - maybe Bontrager CX1 
Stem (90/100mm)
Handlebar (width dont know yet)

Thought this would be a cheap project for me, then it all escalated quickly.... I'll post pics once I get everything sorted out.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Received my frame yesterday (56cm, BSA) Ordered with seat post/clamp, axles, bottle cages and headset. To give an idea of timing I ordered on April 7th, the product shipped on April 22 and was attempted to be delivered on the 26th, but had to pick up at USPS yesterday the 27th. Everything was received in good order and packaging looked good with all contents well protected.

The post, axles and headset all seems to be of good quality for the price ($32, $27, $15 respectively). Bottle cages were $9 each. Also ft axle fit looks well designed and a little different from earlier posts. Let me know if anyone needs any more pics.














As far as the frame is concerned, it looked of good quality, fit and finish. My comparison is a top brand carbon FS mountain bike. In physical appearance, it is not obvious that one is of higher quality or finish than the other. This said, the MB bike exceeded my expectation for it's $. Who knows, they may have been the OEM for my mtn bike??

I'll be building things up in the next couple of days. Let me know if you have any questions.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Let me get this straight, a SRAM 10spd clutch derailluer works with 10 spd Campy shifters? My Record 10 rear derailluer barely works with an 11-28 cassette( thought they could go up to a 29t) I was hoping for a little more low end range.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> Let me get this straight, a SRAM 10spd clutch derailluer works with 10 spd Campy shifters? My Record 10 rear derailluer barely works with an 11-28 cassette( thought they could go up to a 29t) I was hoping for a little more low end range.


I'm a bit skeptical as well.

Campy 10s didn't work very well with Shimano/SRAM cassettes. Like, at all. I'm having a hard time imagining a Campy RD matched with a SRAM shifter and anything nice resulting.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Suffer- 
Your axle looks alot like the variant some of us received that didn't work correctly. 
The axle istself was a hair too long, and the "nut" didn't seat inside the collar of the fork. 
I'm only judging by the end nut, it's similar to the one they sent that didn't work. 

-JCB


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

JCB, could you post what the working axles you received looks like


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*New vs Old*

The top axle is the wrong one. 
The shorter/correct version is below. 








Now that I'm looking at it- I think I may have spoken without cause. A common MTBR affliction.

In your shot, the axle end nut looked just like I remembered the one that was wrong. 
And- I was wrong- they aren't even close!
You're probably fine. 
Sorry to spook you!

-JCB


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

My frames should be arriving this week. I ordered the through axles, but didn't think to order seatpost collar or headset, partly because I bought a road frame last year from China via velobuildmall.com, and they included them for free. I'm not going to want to wait for shipping from China for the parts I'm missing, so I'll probably try to find a closer source. Is it a fairly standard headset?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Spencer-
I'm no inset headset tapered type encyclopedia but- 
Yep. It is a standard headset.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> The top axle is the wrong one.
> The shorter/correct version is below.
> View attachment 984808
> 
> ...


Actually, what I received was like neither of what you show in the picture. I received a flange-less barrel nut that bottoms out in the recessed portion of the fork axle thru hole. It has one set of flats to wrench on if needed. I'm nearly certain it works, by measurement. I'm waiting on 15mm cups for my Hope hub to test it absolutely. Here is a pic of the front. The rear has a flange with flats for box wrench.







Not that spooked. I have access to a machine shop so I can get something made if I need to, but don't think so. I believe your persistence with MB forced them to get their act together - JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Oh one more thought on the barrel nut now being supplied with the thru axle. I will likely put an oring in the notch around the circumference of the nut. This will hopefully act like press fit to hold the nut in the fork while changing it the field. The rear nut can be held in by way of a setscrew in the rear dropout - nice feature by the way.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

qspencer said:


> My frames should be arriving this week.


I posted that, and an hour later they showed up at my door, sooner than I was expecting. It turns out they included headsets even though I didn't explicitly ask for them. I do need seatpost collars still. The frames look awesome, great quality finish. No time for pictures right now, but I'll do so later.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> Let me get this straight, a SRAM 10spd clutch derailluer works with 10 spd Campy shifters? My Record 10 rear derailluer barely works with an 11-28 cassette( thought they could go up to a 29t) I was hoping for a little more low end range.





Le Duke said:


> I'm a bit skeptical as well.
> 
> Campy 10s didn't work very well with Shimano/SRAM cassettes. Like, at all. I'm having a hard time imagining a Campy RD matched with a SRAM shifter and anything nice resulting.


If you have campy shifters and derailleur it will NOT work with SHIMANO/SRAM cassettes.

However it is fairly well known in the CX world that campy 10 brifters pull the same amount of cable as SRAM shifters making them work just fine with SRAM 10 speed derailleurs and shimano/SRAM 10 speed cassettes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My road bike, have 2 other bikes setup with campy levers. 1000s of miles with no issues.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I'm running a SRAM 11-28 10 spd cassette with my Campy Record 10 on my cross bike, it does work fine except the for the 25 and 28t,which the 25t does make noise and will sometimes skip, trimming the shifter does help though. The problem that I'm having mostly is that the rear derailluer doesn't seem to like the 28t, while it works fine in that gear, it sometimes sticks and will not shift down without fuss, not sure if it's a derailluer or cassette problem. Switching to a Campy free hub body is not an option, thinking about the Wheels Mfg, Campy conversion cassette, but it's an 11-30, and if my derailluer is having trouble with the current 28t, wondering if the 30t would work.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> I'm running a SRAM 11-28 10 spd cassette with my Campy Record 10 on my cross bike, it does work fine except the for the 25 and 28t,which the 25t does make noise and will sometimes skip, trimming the shifter does help though. The problem that I'm having mostly is that the rear derailluer doesn't seem to like the 28t, while it works fine in that gear, it sometimes sticks and will not shift down without fuss, not sure if it's a derailluer or cassette problem. Switching to a Campy free hub body is not an option, thinking about the Wheels Mfg, Campy conversion cassette, but it's an 11-30, and if my derailluer is having trouble with the current 28t, wondering if the 30t would work.


I don't have that issue I am running a 28t max rear on my small cage derailleur.

I would recommend that you try and get a hold of a SRAM shifter if possible to see if it's the campy but I doubt that it is. The campy pulls a super tiny amount of cable overall but it's not enough to matter and can be completely tuned out with the use of low and high travel screws.

A trick I do on all my bike not just the campy rival setup but on my mountain bikes is a set the travel limit for the smallest gear a little loose so it add a bit of tension to my shift cable. Not a lot but enough that the cable is never super loose. Then of course for the large gear I set it so that even if I'm pressing hard on the lever after shifting into the large gear it won't go over and into my spokes.

I never go over and I never have any grinding or what not.

Granted I am using the high end cables on all my rear derailleurs. I only use cheap cables on the front derailleurs.

Not sure if that matters.

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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Suffer-
That nut looks great. 
You could even drill a small hole in the fork collar and then put a 2mm screw into it, butting into the groove of the nut. That way it'll still turn to take up tension as needed, but is captured in the collar. 
Don't think I'd do it, but you could. 

And on a side note- after more and more miles on this bike. 
Moving the bars a bit. Pushed the saddle forward some. 
It's gotten comfy and I need to say... I REALLY LIKE THIS BIKE! 
It's a great frame/fork. 

Can anyone currently riding give me an idea of the thrashing you've given it? 
Not road, not commuting, but perhaps single track abuse?


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Suffer-
> That nut looks great.
> You could even drill a small hole in the fork collar and then put a 2mm screw into it, butting into the groove of the nut. That way it'll still turn to take up tension as needed, but is captured in the collar.
> Don't think I'd do it, but you could.
> ...


So what's the deal with these forks? None of them are threaded in the fork itself? That's kind of a bummer. I'd certainly wanna try and do something. Maybe epoxy or something. Not a deal breaker and not enough to deal with QR but geeze guys. Spend a few bucks to do it right?

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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

You are accurate Giv. 
The forks aren't threaded so it's not a Rock Shox 15mm, not a Fox...
Evidently just a Miracle. 
So go on a road trip? Take this bike? Lose or damage the MB 15mm axle? You're out of luck.

Would be cool to try and modify some RS to this fork. 
Or add one of these instead. Only a little bit more than what I spent on my frame/fork. 
https://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php?productid=1251&catid=206


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> So what's the deal with these forks? None of them are threaded in the fork itself? That's kind of a bummer. I'd certainly wanna try and do something. Maybe epoxy or something. Not a deal breaker and not enough to deal with QR but geeze guys. Spend a few bucks to do it right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it's a poor design. Not necessarily the fact of not having a threaded insert, but the fact that there is a little play radially in the recessed through hole on the barrel nut side of the fork. A fraction of a millimeter radially in any direction could mean a mm or two at the rim or tire edge. As I mentioned in an earlier post I'm planning on an o-ring or some other centering device on the barrel nut so that it is centered when the axle cinches down (and so that it stays with the fork and doesn't pop out). I'm not prepared (yet) to epoxy something in or afix wtih a setscrew. A press fit barrel nut would make more sense, but is an unlikely option as the inset part of the thru hole is not machined - only formed. The cam side of the fork has a Al insert for centering the axle, but the tolerance is poor. There's some slop in there as well, and I guess this would all depend upon how your axle cups fit into the features on the inside of the fork. But it's a frame and fork for $500. That TRP fork alone that JCB mentions is almost $600.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Wow... I'm wondering if QR is the way to go on this and sell the QR fork once an affordable thru axle fork comes out. My hubs are convertible... Ghetto thru axle doesn't sound better than old school QR. Plus I'd be able to use my roof rack instead of my trunk rack.


So none of those cheaper forks on eBay are proper thru axle?

And also I get the whole $500 comparison but these bikes are coming from the source with very little mark up. Your carbon bikes that you buy at the shop have been marked up by the manufacturer, then the bike company, then the distributed, then the bike shop! So that $1500-2000 bare frame from name that big company probably cost $200-400 to make in Taiwan. I know that's not the case for ALL companies but it is the case for many!



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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I hear you Giv. 
Seems like it'd be a small amount of $$ during manufacturuing to make these forks considerably better at the TA.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I hear you Giv.
> Seems like it'd be a small amount of $$ during manufacturuing to make these forks considerably better at the TA.


I wonder if it's some sort of patent issue. Heck I'd be willing to pay extra for proper thru axle. Do a QR option, crap thru axle and good thru axle. Call the crap one something decent lol.

15mm thru axle and 12x142 rear is just becoming a reality in retail stores and maybe not even quite a reality yet. It will get to the point where multiple manufacturers offer affordable forks with good thru axle design.

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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

So are both the rear and front some half assed through axles, the frame/fork is not threaded? Or em I misinterpreting the discussion.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

w0lla said:


> So are both the rear and front some half assed through axles, the frame/fork is not threaded? Or em I misinterpreting the discussion.


I'm sure the drop out is threaded either that or I quit

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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> I'm sure the drop out is threaded either that or I quit
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Time to tap out Giv. The rear dropout is not threaded. It has the same basic design as the front, with the difference being that the dropout is Al. The non-thread side has nice tolerance to fit the axle and the threaded side has a barrel nut that fits into the opposing Al Dropout. This fit is much tighter and looks to be an okay design. The rear dropout on the threaded side has a setscrew to hold the barrel nut in place. I posted a picture above where you can see the axle bare with nut and in the frame with wheel attached.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> Time to tap out Giv. The rear dropout is not threaded. It has the same basic design as the front, with the difference being that the dropout is Al. The non-thread side has nice tolerance to fit the axle and the threaded side has a barrel nut that fits into the opposing Al Dropout. This fit is much tighter and looks to be an okay design. The rear dropout on the threaded side has a setscrew to hold the barrel nut in place. I posted a picture above where you can see the axle bare with nut and in the frame with wheel attached.


Wow...

Are the frames QR / Thru specific or is the drop outs?

This has to be related to patents... Like maxle and stuff like that.

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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> Wow...
> 
> Are the frames QR / Thru specific or is the drop outs?
> 
> ...


The Frame is generic. it accepts inserts for QR or TA dropouts. The dropouts can be changed out with two small M8 (i think) bolts

Looks like Carver Bikes adopted the same (similar or better) approach.

Ti 420 Update - Carver Bikes


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep- if the TA rear issue is a deal breaker for you, consider getting the frame w/ the QR drops. 
If you order them and they don't show- let me know. 
I'm sitting on 2 of them w/o need. 


But, as stated above, minimal movemenet at the axle = perhaps too much movement at the tires edge. 
I also agree w/ the explanation of the fittings. 
The rear TA is a much better set up than the front. 
-JCB


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Yep- if the TA rear issue is a deal breaker for you, consider getting the frame w/ the QR drops.
> If you order them and they don't show- let me know.
> I'm sitting on 2 of them w/o need.
> 
> ...


So I think I'll get both tear drop out types and do QR up front. I'm glad I read all this.

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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Can you source this frame w/ a QR front fork? 
In my experience I only saw it as a TA front, and optional rear.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

How is the quality of the front/rear TA then?


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> So I think I'll get both tear drop out types and do QR up front. I'm glad I read all this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Giv. Your making the assumption that QR is perfect, which may not be the case. Personally, I would order both dropouts for rear and for front determine what is more valuable to you from a disk wheel perspective. If I were to order again I'd go with the TA. I prefer the strength and stability with discount brakes plus the wheel interchange with my other mountain bikes over the perfect alignment 
issues Of the TA. I'm not an avid road or cross biker. I mountain bike and wanted a cheap road gravel machine. Maybe you should consider a better quality frame. Santa Cruz brought back the stigmata with thru axles.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's how I see TA in general. 
The interface between the outer axle surface and the inner fork surface has to be as close as possible while allowing the axle to be pulled free when needed. 
That's why I like the design of the Maxle over the Fox axles. At least the RS Maxle expands slightly on one end, screws in on the other. 
But the Fox is an easier to use design and it's not like you see issues w/ their system anyway. 

On the Miracle, the interface between the left side of the fork (disc side) is close, not sloppy but not quite as tight as a Fox or RS. 
The right side of the fork is where there could be an issue, though is hasn't presented in my use yet. 
On the R side, there is a bit more room where the axle comes thru the fork, then you add the nut and snug it up. 
The success or failure of it is based on the clamping force of the axle's QR, not the close tolerances (or lack of) on the R side of the fork. 

But- on the rear, it's a good snug fit between the axle and the drops on EACH side.

Oh- perhaps I just now understood you actual question. 
The quality of the actual TA, not the system. Jeez. 
I could have made this easier. 

The MB axles are fine. Nothing amazing to be sure, but fine. 
You don't get the gradual addition of tension as you close the lever that you imght get w/ a Salsa or Shimano lever. 
It's much more abrupt. A small amount of lever movement is the difference between lost and tight. 

But in use? It works just fine. 
Clear as mud?


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> Giv. Your making the assumption that QR is perfect, which may not be the case. Personally, I would order both dropouts for rear and for front determine what is more valuable to you from a disk wheel perspective. If I were to order again I'd go with the TA. I prefer the strength and stability with discount brakes plus the wheel interchange with my other mountain bikes over the perfect alignment
> issues Of the TA. I'm not an avid road or cross biker. I mountain bike and wanted a cheap road gravel machine. Maybe you should consider a better quality frame. Santa Cruz brought back the stigmata with thru axles.


I don't think the frame is low quality. There is no reason for it to be. I have mountain bikes that are QR I like 15mm through but it's not the end of the world especially on a rigid bike. I was under the impression you could choose between a thru or QR front fork. If not no big deal. I can sell the fork and run one I prefer. The frame is the most important thing.

I get what your trying to do though. Wether conscious or not. I'm not ripping this frame or fork. I understand that there could be patent issues. Even that other company that chose the non threaded drop out most likely had other reasons than stated. It's a drop out its replaceable. Doesn't matter if it gets damaged.

Anyways I want a frame that has 12x142 rear as an option. If it doesn't work out that's what the QR drops are for.

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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Well said Suffer. 
You make good points. 

Thumbs up for the Stigmata if you are sitting on plenty of $$. 
If you are considering the Stigmata as a bike, there are ample other options out there. 
That Pivot Vault has my attention!


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Well said Suffer.
> You make good points.
> 
> Thumbs up for the Stigmata if you are sitting on plenty of $$.
> ...


No way man.No Stigmata for me. More than happy with the Miracle. We have to face the reality that these shops are not bike company s, the are manufacturing houses. I deal with it every Fay in my day job. There's no patent on a standard, maybe an exclusively agreement. That's what you get with a brand bike, the specification. Anyone can mtg it.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

True. 
But the heart wants what the heart wants. 

Now- let's get down to brass tacks- 
When will they make a carbon frame with couplers? 
What? Too soon?


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> True.
> But the heart wants what the heart wants.
> 
> Now- let's get down to brass tacks-
> ...


What's that.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I think it's lower quality. 
In design and quality control. 

-The insets of the internal cable routes are thin pressed metal barely held in place w/ teeny screw. 
-There's no internal routing of the internal routes. If that makes any sense! Any cable inside the frame will just rattle itself against the inner carbon. That or you need to run full housing. 
-Some bike arrive w/ pre-routed tubes, some don't. 
-My headset bearings are resting in their cups. A bucket or six of grease will keep it quiet over the season. 
-My previous BSA adapter issues don't need to be gone in to. But- some glue there would have helped. 
-The rear dropouts are held in place w/ 2.5mm screws. 2.5!! Teeeeeeeeny little things. 
In between the rear drops and the frame is paint. So after that chips/wears away the drops will be pressed up against what? What, besides the squish of the rear axle, will be holding the drops to the frame? Screws about as thick as a dime? 

And I still, even after all that and all my hurdles, really like this bike. 
I think, as buyers, most of us would consider this unacceptable if we were paying the insane prices that SC charges for their frames and a whopping two year warranty. 

I like these as an option. I'm glad to see that such sellers are out there kicking big S and Trek in the junk now and then. 
But, to me, No- these are not the same quality or or QC of other options. 
And for $480 USD, I wouldn't expect them to be. 
Even a steel Asian made Surly costs this much for a frame/fork!


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

damn JCB, you dont paint a pretty picture of the frame....should one be worried about the robustness of the design?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

The robustness is something I'm waiting to learn more about. 
I've asked in this thread for reports of abused and happy frames but haven't heard back yet.

But these folks make mountain bikes too and it's not like they are cracking and falling apart. 
I don't have an answer for you yet but anticipate things will be fine. 
Given the mileage some riders have, and perhaps heavier riders or heavier loads- I think if here were more issue, we'd be hearing about them already. 

In short- I like our chances with this frame and I believe my concerns will ultimately be unfounded.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

JCB: I believe the 142x12 dropouts on your frame are the same ones used on the IP-057, -256, -036, and many others in both the 27.5 and 29er forums. 

I've been riding mine, in all conditions, for over about a year and a half now. I swapped to a DT Swiss e-thru axle right off the bat; I have them on multiple bikes. Used the set screw to keep the nut in place and, aside from swapping wheels, I never think about it. 

Mine is a HT 29er, that serves as my "interval day" and race bike. I have a Stages power meter on that bike, thus it gets most of the miles, to include several hundred hours on the trainer this winter. So far, not a peep, and the spare 142x12 dropouts sit in my toolbox.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

LeDuke-
I only intend to use this frame as a spare to my September Tuesday Race bike that is normally used during muddy days of delivering opera news letters to orphans. 

But in all seriousness- THANK YOU!
That's the type of real world use/info that easy trumps my hypothetical concerns. 
Thanks. 
I won't worry about them again. 
-JCB


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I should have said: I have a road bike, a Santa Cruz TB LTC, and a Chinese carbon HT 29er that uses the same 142x12mm dropouts. It sees 4-6 days of use/week, on rocky, root infested western VA mountain singletrack. No problems.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Le duke, are these the axles you use http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/RWS/RWS-E-Thru ?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

On the rear, yes. The front is a RS, to match the SID it holds together.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

does anyone have a close-up picture on how the drop-out looks like?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)




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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Everything above the spoke ruler is DT Swiss.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks,


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

I got my frame in early February and I have been working on branding it myself, (Ralston Bikes) over the last several month. I am finally happy with the out come after many different layout and color schemes.

































The Ralston Bike brand is named and based on Scotchman named Lewis Ralston who was the first European to find gold in the state of Colorado. The arrow that lines the top tub is in honor of the Cherokee Indians that were the first people group to discover gold in what is now known as Ralston Creek.

The CX bike model is the GOLD RUSH.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

c1gary said:


> I got my frame in early February and I have been working on branding it myself, (Ralston Bikes) over the last several month. I am finally happy with the out come after many different layout and color schemes.
> 
> View attachment 985670
> View attachment 985671
> ...


Who did your stickers/decals? They are dope

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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks! I have a table top vinyl cutter and I designed, cut and apply all the decals.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Nice work!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Gary- 
That is beautiful! 
Well done sir. Looks like your time and efforts paid off. I'm envious of how sharp the understated look is. 

On the other hand- 
Rode single track today and it was wonderful. 
The bike worked great and my confidence in it continues to grow.


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## Cutestory (May 7, 2015)

Here's mine:


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

That probably isn't safe...


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

How many spacers is that? I'm in the process of setting up two bikes, a 58 cm for myself and a 48 cm for my wife. It took 6 cm worth of spacers to get the handlebars at the comparable height to the road bike she is used to. Compared to that road bike, this frame has a relatively high bottom bracket and short head tube. I'm also having difficulty getting the saddle back far enough on the 48 cm frame, even with a setback seatpost, because of the exceptionally steep seat tube angle. What's the setback on that seatpost? Lastly, I'm curious what wheels you're using.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Qspencer why not buy a high angle degree stem?


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## Cutestory (May 7, 2015)

Shutter Precision pd-8x dynamo front hub
bikehubstore.com rear hub
Velocity dyad rims (reflective)
Vittoria Voyager Hyper 32mm tires
Paul tall & handsome seatpost, 26mm setback
105 5800 groupset
TRP spyre brakes
Salsa Cowbell bars
Brooks Cambium C17 carved saddle
Performance Bike Forte stem
8 cm of spacers

I built it up for randonneuring and possibly some gravel riding. Rode 4000 feet up a mountain yesterday to test it out, and it's so smooth! I'll probably be lowering the bars a few centimeters.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

w0lla said:


> Qspencer why not buy a high angle degree stem?


I may yet do that. I didn't realize how many spacers I would need until I had bought the stem and started setting the bike up. I knew the head tube was a little shorter than the road bike I'm using as reference, but the high bottom bracket contributed another 1-2 cm.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

What is the general consensus here on these....what manuf.? Should be able to build up a frame with Iron Cross wheels and 105 w/discs for ~$1800 by the looks of it. Not a bad deal.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

If I'm going to summarize the issues on this frame:
- rough headtube/headset interface - fixed by light sanding
- incorrectly delivered specs (BSA/press fit)
- missing items, 142 drop out, 15mm ta axle/nut
- incorrect 15mm axle nut

I understand that MB has been responsive in addressing these concerns, but has these been eliminated or at least prevented from recurring?

Any recent orders that were fullfilled 100% successful?

Is it a requirement that the axles be ordered from MB as well? Isn't DT swiss RWS going to work with 12x142 and 15TA?


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

spyghost said:


> Any recent orders that were fullfilled 100% successful?


I recently ordered 2 frames and consider my order to be 100% successful. No apparent issues with finish of the frame, axles work OK, and BB was BSA as ordered (and does not appear to be an inserted sleeve as JCB experienced).



spyghost said:


> Is it a requirement that the axles be ordered from MB as well? Isn't DT swiss RWS going to work with 12x142 and 15TA?


I haven't tried it with other axles, and I'm not familiar with the axle standards to know whether others would work.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

TiGeo said:


> What is the general consensus here on these....what manuf.? Should be able to build up a frame with Iron Cross wheels and 105 w/discs for ~$1800 by the looks of it. Not a bad deal.


I'm using 105 with a cheaper set of wheels (Mavic Crossride) and I think I'm going to be somewhere around $1600 total. That includes a $60 paint job. You may be able to hit $1800 with Iron Cross wheels depending on what you spend on the other parts.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

For the front:

RWS from DT swiss: DT Swiss - RWS 15 mm
Maxle from RS: https://www.sram.com/rockshox/products/maxle-lite-15mm

The biggest concern here in the front is the right side axle nut. The fork that comes with this frame doesn't seem to 'lock' the nut on the dropout similar to the Whiskey, Fox, Marz, RS, etc... From what I've read on this thread, the fork dropouts are only being held by the threads of the screw which holds the hub between. The nut doesn't even seem to be bound/installed to the dropout at all, literally its just a nut that you install/uninstall.

























For the rear: 
12x142 RWS from DT swiss: DT Swiss - RWS E-Thru
12x142 Maxle from RS: https://www.sram.com/rockshox/products/rear-maxle-lite

If the rear dropouts are spec'd correctly 'thickness' wise, the 2 above should be usable - without the nut that is because the MB DS dropout comes with integrated nut.

Given that manufacturers include the nut in the rear axle, it would be easy to fabricate the rear dropouts since one doesn't have to thread from an intruded section of the DS dropout.

From an axle standards POV (if that exists at all lol), overall, I see no issues on the rear, _but the front looks troublesome because of the flimsy right side nut as there isn't even a metal bush or insert that comes with the fork dropouts to protect the CF materal_.

Has anyone actually ridden this build on the trail? not really a CX race, but on a CX trail (ie not on the road)


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Closer to Perfect*

Over the last few weeks I've been tweaking the riding position (was surprised to find that moving my seat _forward_ helped! And I lowered the bars) and other bits are morphing.

The Wheels Manufacturing eccentric BB took some learning, but is now slip free and silent. 
(Am I the only one using this frame as a SS? If not, how did you guys deal w/ chain tension?)

The rear tire (WTB Nano 40) is too big. It works and is rub free but one good go in the mud, one good kaCHANG against a rock and the wheel will do some real damage to the frame as I pedal/limp home. I'll find something a bit more narrow.

The bars are lower, there are less spacers now. The hoods have moved.
Did I already tell you that the TRP Hylex brakes are amazing? Well, they still are.

And folks? 
I LOVE THIS BIKE! (typed as I sit here w/ helmet still on after a ride)
You hear me Miracle??! You did great by me. 
Some road, lots of single track, and plenty of smiles.

And MTBR? You too. This thread has helped me plenty. 
Thanks Everyone.

And if you're on the fence about this frame/fork? 
If it fits your needs, if you want discs, wide tire clearance, low cost, etc.
GET IT. 
If you are a buyer that reall regrets the purchase of this frame, I'd love to know why. 
-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

I have another 100% successful order for frame, TA, headset, seatpost and bottle cages. I received the shipment about 2 weeks ago


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## need4gforce (Sep 12, 2009)

Cutestory said:


> Here's mine:


Yes that is scary amount of headtube spacers. Just asking for tons of pressure on that headtube! Drop it about halfway and I would feel better for your life.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

So what's the deal here? 
Short, as in way short, way too short? Head tubes? 
Why are we seeing folks (myself included) wanting to use plenty of spacers to put the bars where we want em? 

In my case, it's not the frame size. A larger frame would help some but my post would be slammed into the frame. 

I'm all about being up. If I were to graph my bikes over the years, I might be on a recumbent by the time I'm 60! 
My touring bike looks like something a kid would deliver papers on but it's as comfy as I've known. It was the Surly Open Bar that saved that old Salsa from hook. Big old hoopty bars on that skinny steel frame. Comfy. All day comfy. 

Anyway- headtube is too short? Is that what we're seeing?


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

From what I can see, the stack on the miracle bike is quite alot lower than on other similar sized cyclcocross bikes


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

what size do you suggest for a 5'8" male with 30" inseam?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Spyg- I can't say but I"m about 5/09 w/ about a 32 and am on a 54. 
Larger wouldn't have worked. 
Smaller would have been even worse!


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Yeah the stack is lower. The geometry curiously similar to the Focus Mares CX. Just a mm or two off in most dims. Many of the other cross frames have another 20mm of stack height for the same frame size.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

SufferFest said:


> Yeah the stack is lower. The geometry curiously similar to the Focus Mares CX. Just a mm or two off in most dims. Many of the other cross frames have another 20mm of stack height for the same frame size.


Perhaps a stem with a rise should be used instead ie 17*

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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

SufferFest said:


> Yeah the stack is lower. The geometry curiously similar to the Focus Mares CX. Just a mm or two off in most dims. Many of the other cross frames have another 20mm of stack height for the same frame size.


For sure, this bike is very close to Focus - Bikes | 2015 | Cyclocross | Mares CX |...

I wonder if Focus Axles could be compatible...


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Wolla- 
You are comparing the MB frame to focus by mostly numbers only? By their geometries?
Visually the frames seem different. 

I'd love to know of any other frame out there that is the same as this. 
Same as in- it pops out of the same mold. 
Anyone have other possible candidates for the MB frame's more expensive twins?

And after looking at the Focus axles- Man! I'd love to know if they will work in a Miracle. 
-JCB


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## Cutestory (May 7, 2015)

spyghost said:


> what size do you suggest for a 5'8" male with 30" inseam?


I'm 5'8" with a 31" inseam. The 52cm fits well apart from the low stack height. Your reach is maybe a bit longer, so you'd want a 100-110mm stem.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

With all of the talk about potential safety risks from using too many spacers, does anyone know what those risks are and how many spacers is generally considered safe? Have carbon steerer tubes been known to fail, and where is the failure point?

I'm setting up two of these bikes, and it looks like I'll have 4 cm of spacers on mine and 6 cm on my wife's. While mine is a 33% smaller gap between headset and stem, I also weigh about 40% more and am using a 20% longer stem, so it's plausible I'm putting more stress on the steerer tube.

If this really is a risk running 6 cm of spacers, it looks like I can go to a 17 degree stem and remove 2, but I'd like to understand this issue better before I go buying more parts.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

QBP restricts the number of spacers to 5cm - how much safety factor is built into that is unknown. Their thru axle fork is also rated for ASTM Class 2 (6" drops, occasional loss of ground contact). So if you plan to strictly gravel grind and run 1cm extra spacer, well...


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## need4gforce (Sep 12, 2009)

__
http://instagr.am/p/2qWT-Gx9wz/


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

There are classifications for forks??! ASTM Class 2? 
Well there goes a few hours of my day reading up on that new info. 

And as for the broken BMX bike clip....
Oh god. Shame on me for watching it 2x. It'll flit thru my brain as I rip down single track.
Thanks for that. 

-JCB


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## Twiggy (Feb 18, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> What is the general consensus here on these....what manuf.? Should be able to build up a frame with Iron Cross wheels and 105 w/discs for ~$1800 by the looks of it. Not a bad deal.


I've gotta admit guys....I've been following this thread for months and was giving serious consideration to one of these frames....But then I realized that for only $1800 Canadian (thats like $20 USD these days, bahaha) I could buy a brand new Giant TCX Advanced Pro 2 off the shelf with a full 105 group (well...with an FSA Crank)... shopping around I've managed to build it up with Sram Force CX-1 for Under $2100...with full warranty. That makes all of the pain of dealing with a Chinese manufacturer seem kinda..... I dunno.... risky?


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Looks nice gz


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Twiggy said:


> I've gotta admit guys....I've been following this thread for months and was giving serious consideration to one of these frames....But then I realized that for only $1800 Canadian (thats like $20 USD these days, bahaha) I could buy a brand new Giant TCX Advanced Pro 2 off the shelf with a full 105 group (well...with an FSA Crank)... shopping around I've managed to build it up with Sram Force CX-1 for Under $2100...with full warranty. That makes all of the pain of dealing with a Chinese manufacturer seem kinda..... I dunno.... risky?


Giant's US web site is showing a suggested retail of $2350 on that bike: TCX Advanced Pro 2 (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States. That usually means you can find a shop willing to sell it to you for 10% less than that, of course. Looking at the specifications, I'd say the proposed $1800 setup includes a nicer set of wheels (Stan's Iron Cross vs. a pair of generic looking Giant branded wheels). My setup will include 105 drivetrain and an entry-level set of Mavic wheels and will come in at about $1600. I also got custom paint, so it's conceivable that you could trim some more off that and maybe build one of these for $1500. Front and rear through axles is a nifty feature but poses real budget challenges because there aren't any cheap through axle rear wheels that are also compatible with road 11 speed cassettes (I'm going to run 10 speed on mine). The Giant appears to have front through axle but not rear.

Having said all of that, I will say that I think the price of entry-level carbon bikes from the major brands has come down quite a lot in recent years. Competition from direct-imported generic frames is probably a factor, but also carbon manufacturing has improved a lot, I think.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Friends in the bike industry keep telling me they aren't worried about these type of no-name frames. They say the industry won't be phased by such options. 
Then I keep meeting more people thinking of them as an option. More and more. 
Then the industry keeps lowering prices on full bikes like that Giant. I suppose to keep being competitive with someone. 

I suppose the truth of it all is somewhere in between. The industry won't be ruined by these. And it won't be untouched either. 

A new buyer. A novice buyer. Someone who doesn't wonder about each little bit as they lay in bed at night- go buy a ready to go bike. And ride it lots. 
Looking for a project? Something that allows you to hem and haw all the day long? Your wheels? Your cranks? Shimano road levers w/ XTR calipers? Fine- here's an option that'll do it w/o pulling parts off to replace w/ something else. 

To compare a bike laced from the bottom up w/ parts you chose to a bike that's full built and find the price even close to each other is amazing. 
I've known people to order full bikes JUST FOR THE PARTS since they are cheaper than buying bit by bit.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I saw 3 "Chiners" in my last pro/open XC race. 3-4 years ago, that would have been 0.


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## asphalt_jesus (Aug 13, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> I've gotta admit guys....I've been following this thread for months and was giving serious consideration to one of these frames....But then I realized that for only $1800 Canadian (thats like $20 USD these days, bahaha) I could buy a brand new Giant TCX Advanced Pro 2 off the shelf with a full 105 group (well...with an FSA Crank)... shopping around I've managed to build it up with Sram Force CX-1 for Under $2100...with full warranty. That makes all of the pain of dealing with a Chinese manufacturer seem kinda..... I dunno.... risky?


The giant is probably my next frameset when I break the current one. (It will happen. I have an unbroken record of breaking bikes.)

What is the weight like all-in?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Jesus-
How are your frames usually breaking? And are we talking road frames? Or all varieties?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*The Miracle keeps instructing me.*

This build has taught me about bottom brakets and converting them. 
I've learned about various axle standards, carbon steerers, and internal route of hydraulic brake lines.

Today's lesson is on Lizard Skin DSP bar tape. 
It's expensive (even $20 at cost) and fantastic. 
It's like wrapping your bars in tape that's made from mountain grips. 
Great great stuff and I anticipate the durability is also good. 
I went w/ the thick stuff (think it was 3.2mm?) and it's perfect for cross. 
Can't imagine using the thinnest of the 3 for anything, but the middle might make it to my road bike.

And that's all I know tonight.

As usual- I hope you aren't reading this because you are riding.

Oh- speaking of hours and hours on a bike-
Have you heard about these guys?
I like long rides but 230 miles a day is hard. 
Even harder if you have to do it again tomorrow. And just insane if you have to average that every single day of the year. So that you can break a record set in 1937!!!
Miles and miles: what it takes to attempt the year record | CyclingTips
We are soft, and we are getting softer. 
-JCB


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Just received my frame, spotless except for one mark - see below, what you guys think of this?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Is that the drive side chainstay?
If you're worried about it cosmetically- I'd say it's not an issue. 

But if you're worried about it structurally- well I suppose Id also say it's not an issue!
Given how large a hole the routing makes, or even a water bottle boss or the holes to route power to an electronic shifting bike, well that teeny thing doesn't seem too bad. 

But other than repairing two carbon frames with kits off Amazon- I have no training in the field of carbon chips.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Hmm, sent it to miraclebikes to comment.

I dont care about the cosmetical, but the robustness..


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Help!!! I have finally got around to building up my frame, and things were working perfectly until I came to the brake and cable routing. I am using mechanical brakes, so I ran the rear brake cable and housing to the down tube, then ran the cable inside the frame. As expected, the hole in the down tube for the cables has a housing stop. As I ran the cable through the tube and out the chain stay towards the rear brakes, I realized that the rear hole in the chain stay where the cable exits DOES NOT have a housing stop. How can I run housing from the rear hole to the brake without a stop? The cable would just run into the frame without stopping. I understand that if you are running full hydraulic brakes that you need holes without cable stops, but shouldn't it be either all housing stops or none?

Looking online, I purhased some Jagwire alloy housing stops

Jagwire Alloy Housing Stop > Components > Drivetrain, Brakes and Pedals > Cables and Housing | Jenson USA

but they are way too large to fit into the holes.

Any help on this please? How did you guys route your brake and cables with this frame?

Thanks!


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

The down tube hole for the brake cable should not have a housing stop. However, it's right next to the hole for the derailleur cable, which should have a housing stop. Check to see if they were inadvertently switched. They were switched in my frame.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks qspencer...turns out you are correct - the down tube hole does not have a stop, but the hole in the frame makes a "stop" when the mount is screwed in, since the frame sticks out a bit from where the mount ends. It stops the housing from going into the down tube but not the cable. Hope that makes sense.

I may need to drill out the "stop" in the frame to get the housing to fit all the way through. I seem to remember someone in this thread mentioning this problem before

Even if running mechanical brakes, you run the housing all the way through the frame, from shifter to brake? Sounds easy enough.

Thanks again for your help


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Gluddy said:


> Even if running mechanical brakes, you run the housing all the way through the frame, from shifter to brake? Sounds easy enough.


Yes, I've got mechanical brakes, and I ran cable housing all the way. The Shimano 105 group I'm using came with more than enough housing.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Gluddy said:


> Thanks qspencer...turns out you are correct - the down tube hole does not have a stop, but the hole in the frame makes a "stop" when the mount is screwed in, since the frame sticks out a bit from where the mount ends. It stops the housing from going into the down tube but not the cable. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> I may need to drill out the "stop" in the frame to get the housing to fit all the way through. I seem to remember someone in this thread mentioning this problem before
> 
> ...


That might have been one of my posts, I ran the cable the whole way...there wasn't another choice really because of the cable-in/cable-out inserts. And yes, I had to sand back a little frame material to accommodate the Shimano brake housing. Try to find my posts though because I think there was more detail about the downtube insert that will save you some time.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Hydro housing, same size as Shimano fit in mine OK. Think I drilled out the removable cable stop near the headtube on mine though to allow it to slip thru.


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Hydro housing, same size as Shimano fit in mine OK. Think I drilled out the removable cable stop near the headtube on mine though to allow it to slip thru.


In case Gluddy doesn't read my older posts you might want to re-phrase that? E.g. you removed the cable stop and drilled back some frame material so that the cable could pass though the stop/frame without hindrance. Just in case he drills the actual cable insert/stop )))) Or did you you mean you accessed the excess protruding frame material though the cable insert with the drill?

Did you actually need a drill JCB? I only had to remove the smallest bit of frame material for it to fit. Or was it because you didn't want to remove the cable stop to remove the frame material that a drill was easier?

On a separate note, I just pulled the plug on a set of carbon rims from Light Bicycle. Specifically, the tubeless compatible U-shaped 45mm for a rear and 35mm front. Can't wait!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

It wasn't that long ago but I can't say for certain what I did to the cable stop but am confident I didn't mod the frame in anyway near that area. 

I'm pretty sure the frame stop was set up so that a 5mm brake housing w/ an end ferrule on it would stop, allowing the cable to continue w/o housing. 
The TRP brake housing is about the size of 4mm shift housing so I drilled the removeable housing stop. Or I slightly flared it w/ some poker type thing. That or the hydro hose just went right thru. I dunno for which except that I didn't modify the frame.

I'm envious of your carbon rims! 
I've loved them on the mountain bikes and think road or cross would be perfect for them. Likely a better fit than on a mountain bike. 

A friend feeds himself by being a wheel builder and keeps seeing mountain rims (Nexte, LB, Enve, Derby) come back for relace due to severe rock damage. 
So his vote is still out on carbon for mountain. Although another wheel builder guy swears by them. So well crap. I'll just shut up. 

The blown up rims are often on Nomad type squishy bikes that are ridden fast in the very rough stuff by competent experienced riders. 
My fingers are crossed that my hardtails won't see the impacts they are. Time will tell but so far- LB rims are amazing in my book. 

-JCB


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> It wasn't that long ago but I can't say for certain what I did to the cable stop but am confident I didn't mod the frame in anyway near that area.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the frame stop was set up so that a 5mm brake housing w/ an end ferrule on it would stop, allowing the cable to continue w/o housing.
> The TRP brake housing is about the size of 4mm shift housing so I drilled the removeable housing stop. Or I slightly flared it w/ some poker type thing. That or the hydro hose just went right thru. I dunno for which except that I didn't modify the frame.


Yea, my memory of the job is fading too. But looking at the bike, it's the forward left-side insert that needs to be used for the brake cable on the Ican. Mine didn't come with any inner cable guiding and wasn't an insert that would stop a cable/ferrule (AFAI recall). So I deemed that a full housing should be used, also because there was no guide under the BB for an inner cable on its own. But the cable outer was at such an angle determined by the cable insert entering the frame that the frame wouldn't let the outer pass. As such, some frame material needed to be removed. About 0.25-.50mm at an angle that aided the cable outer to pass. Hope this info helps others.

Any recent pics JCB? Did you stick with the rattlesnake red?


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

anyone know the recommended torque setting for the expander plug that comes with the headset?


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

w0lla said:


> anyone know the recommended torque setting for the expander plug that comes with the headset?


With Ican's fork/headset, there wasn't one. I also couldn't get them to recommend a torque. I just fitted it progressively tighter until it was tight enough to hold the top cap securely, prob about 4-5Nm? Don't quote me though, I fitted it six or seven months ago. The bottom race is shot, has been for ages, so I'll test the torque when it's removed.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

I went with some fiber grip and 5Nm.. seems safe enough..


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## Racing snake (Oct 18, 2014)

w0lla said:


> I went with some fiber grip and 5Nm.. seems safe enough..


It should be. What I do remember is that the Nm went from very little to approx. 5nm very quickly, so I didn't push it as it seemed tight enough. Its been fine since.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep- if it slips. Tighten it a shade more. 
Unless things are all wonky, that top cap won't need any huge amount of purchase to snug things up properly. 
Fiber grip! Now why didn't that occur to me?
Thanks. 

And the yes- I did stay with the red coral snake motif. Genre. Umm...paint job.
I also added some vintage Salsa stickers. Looks good but something about the lie of it doesn't sit well in my head. 
So I looked into my own logos. Now too much $$ but more Han I care to spend on a name. 

I'll get a shot sometime. 
We are moving homes so I steal a pedal each day but don't have the usual free time to get fun stuff done!


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

regarding the front axle clamping. the side with the release lever, it will push quite hard on the fork surface, have you guys added spacers to protect the carbon surface or just went as is.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

bit ashamed of the rear brake cable on the outside, but just couldnt be arsed to re-route it internally..will have to do it at some point.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Wolla-
Was there any response from MB on the little chip you'd photographed? 

Your bike looks great. The red tape really spruces it all up. 
What's the post?

No- I haven't had any degradation of the carbon where the fork butts up against it when clamped. 

We're about done w/ the home move. If I can find a pair of shoes and remember which box might hold a helmet, I'll ride the MB tonight. 

-JCB


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

they said to just ride it, if it becomes a crack (just a scratch now it seems) then contact them again, so Im closely following it now. runnning a 1x11 setup, 44t front, more than enough for me


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## mow4cash (Jun 1, 2015)

I've read through this thread and am pretty sure this is the frame I want. Should I go with the bb30 and buy my own adapter or take a chance on BSA? Im going to get the frame from Jenny. I have an apex group I'm going to use with either the bikehubstore hubs or novatech laced to pacenti sl25. I'm going use this for my northeast winter training bike. Do you think I should get the axles, headset, and seatpost from Jenny or can you guys recommend some other good brands that work. Thanks for all your posts they have been great to read.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

This one's for you Johnny. Thought you'd like the pic.

As for the bike that didn't photo very well with the early morning lighting, I think it's great. I ordered a 56cm (BSA BB) from Jenny MB directly and included the axles, seatpost, headset and bottle cages. All of which are good value and seem to be nice robust parts. Order process was good, build about 2-3 weeks, delivery under a week. No complaints there.

My build was easy and straight forward. I also ran into the same things as others have posted with the low stack height and rear brake cable routing. I added about 3cm of spacers under the 7deg stem angled up, and ran full length mechanical brake cables to BB7s. I went with a 1x10 (42t to 11-36t), mostly to emulate my MB. This bike will be my drivable spare parts inventory if I wreck anything on the mountain bikes. Most everything is interchangeable except the seatpost and bars.

I have about 250miles on it so far and its a really nice ride. Stiff and solid feeling when you step on it, but relatively comfortable for the long haul. I did a 60miler on crappy northeast roads this weekend and I wasn't too beat up from the ride (35c tires probably help). I haven't taken it off road yet, as I have bologna skin tires on, but it seems like it would be fun. It's a very responsive, fun ride, with no creaking and good power delivery. I'm very happy with it overall.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

NIIICE SUFFER!!!!
There's a story about ole Chicken Bones. And it aint me! Just a guy in town that probably doesn't even know we call him that. 
There's even a small pirate trail that only a few ride. Also known as Johnny Chicken Bones. 
Guess they were sea shells he wore on his neck but I always thought they were chicken bones. 

Mow-
I/m pretty sure you HAVE to run the front axle that miracle can provide. Well- if there's a second version, I don't know of it yet. 
You might be able to run someone elses rear axle but why would you? MBs is low cost and does the job just fine. 

Low grade headsets come and go. Especially bad ones. Go w/ the MB headset and if it's no good, we will know by the end of the season and there are plenty of those options out there. But- I see ZERO reason that it won't last and be fine for a few years. 

And as for a seat post- I can't speak to the MB posts.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

SufferFest said:


> My build was easy and straight forward. I also ran into the same things as others have posted with the low stack height and rear brake cable routing. I added about 3cm of spacers under the 7deg stem angled up, and ran full length mechanical brake cables to BB7s. I went with a 1x10 (42t to 11-36t), mostly to emulate my MB. This bike will be my drivable spare parts inventory if I wreck anything on the mountain bikes. Most everything is interchangeable except the seatpost and bars.


SufferFest,

If you don't mind - What is your height/inseam? Also what size MTB do you usually ride?

I'm considering the 56 but I'm curious about the short head tube and low stack height. I'm 6' with a 32" inseam;so all torso and less legs..

Wondering if the 58 is a suitable option. It seems like the slightly larger frame would allow for fewer spacers and level stem.

Thanks in advance!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

LJRacer-
I considered the 56 instead of the 54 to help bring the front up a bit. 
Now that I'm on the 54, I 'm glad I didn't.
Between those sizes- the seat tube is way longer, and the headtube is only slightly. 

Just an FYI.


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## mow4cash (Jun 1, 2015)

I'll stick with the MB acessories. With the bb7 I noticed there is a road model. Is anyone familiar with the difference and which one to go with? I'm 5'8"30 inch inseam and leaning towards the 52.

Sufferfest- 35's how do they roll?. I'm thinking of trying tubeless schwalbe one in 25 or 28. I was worried the 28's might feel sluggish.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

A mountain brake lever pulls a different amount of cable than a road brake lever. 
The road model of a BB7 is made to work w/ a road lever's cable pull.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

mow4cash said:


> With the bb7 I noticed there is a road model. Is anyone familiar with the difference and which one to go with?


Hi Mow

Not familiar per se but from my research I have read that "it depends" LOL

Some newer Shimano Road brake levers pull more cable than the equivalent older models. What this means to you and me is that new Shimano levers work better with the BB7 MTB caliper than older levers did i.e. They tend to have more power and a firmer feel. Some road levers (I believe TRP is one ) have a dual anchor point in the lever to pull either a small amount of cable (think loads of modulation) or a larger amount of cable (think tons of power - it could be visa versa it's late here  ) to cover a wide range of cable pull brakes so you can set things up to
to your personal preference of feel. 
The best thing to do is try to blag a ride on someones (buddy/LBS) bike that has the setup your aiming for . Remember though that the type of cable used in a cable disk brake set up makes a vast difference as to how the brakes work and feel . You should be aiming for compressionless stuff at least . Yokozuna , Gore (no longer made I understand but may be lying in a back drawer LBS somewhere) and Sram (though this was made by Gore and stamped Sram iirc ? ) are just a few examples. 
An hour of research here and elsewhere is gonna save you $$$ in mismatched parts and a ton of heartache too.

FWIW I have old Ultegra 10s mated to BB7 MTN and TRP Spyre and the BB7 is more powerful than the Spyre . Although they are set up BB7 on the front and Spyre on the rear (the frame won't allow a switch due to interference )

These seem to work just fine hauling my fat a$$ to a halt . 
Also gen up on what brake pads folks are using too this is also a factor in stopping power / feel / noise.

Sorry I can't offer much insight buddy but HTH ?

Fat Biker


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Hi LJRacer - I'm 5-11 and have an inseam of 33". The 56cm fits pretty well. I like a larger frame, especially on a road bike. I ride a Large mountain bike (Santa Cruz, Banshee, Jamis) with 70-90mm stems and 175mm cranks. Have an old GT Zascar thats a 19". Not sure how these translate, but hope it helps.

You might want to check this out. It's the fit calculator I used to arrive at the 56. It has three fits from competitive (seat way over bar height) to French Fit (Seat slightly above bar). 
Bike Fit Calculator | Find Your Bike Size | Competitive Cyclist

If you go with the larger frame you might want to get a shorter stem with a higher angle. The 58 might get you pretty sprawled out. I could stand to go from the 100mm to maybe a 80-90mm with larger rise, but I'm okay for now. I have a 6deg rise.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

I had some Schwalbe Kojaks so I used them. They roll pretty well, especially on rough roads, but you may stand to get a little more speed (aero) with the narrower tires. I have an all mountain wheelset right now, so I'm at a disadvantage weight and aero-wise anyway. The 35s are comfortable though. I'd like to swap out the wheels one of these days and see if there's a big speed difference. Not easy to find someone with Mtn hubs built up for road. 

I have the Road BB7s and Cane Creek levers and bartop levers. Seem to work well together. The Road BB7s have a short pull compared to the mountain. Likely less mechanical advantage, but for road plenty of stopping power.


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## mow4cash (Jun 1, 2015)

Im not in much of a hurry to purchase since it's only the beginning of Summer. The wheelset alone is a ton of research do to the limited selection and new products coming to market daily. It's hard to near impossible to find someone running 24h thru axle hubs on a disc cx bike but I plan to since I weight 130lbs. Looks like I might try those bikehubstore hubs, I hope they have decent sealing from the wet. Thanks for the info on the brakes, I'll look into them more. I was already planning to use old stock gore cables.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

mow4cash said:


> Im not in much of a hurry to purchase since it's only the beginning of Summer. The wheelset alone is a ton of research do to the limited selection and new products coming to market daily. It's hard to near impossible to find someone running 24h thru axle hubs on a disc cx bike but I plan to since I weight 130lbs. Looks like I might try those bikehubstore hubs, I hope they have decent sealing from the wet. Thanks for the info on the brakes, I'll look into them more. I was already planning to use old stock gore cables.


You might want to take a look at Light Bicycle. They will make up a set of carbon rims with Novatec or Hope hubs with bladed spokes, Al nipples for ~600$. I'm guessing you can mix-match rims/hubs.

I and many others have had a very good experience with them and their products/service.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

*My completed bikes*

Here are the two bikes I built. This is mine, a 58 cm. I'm 6'3" and this is about as small a frame as I can get away with riding.








This is the one my wife will be riding. It's a 48 cm for a 5'4" rider.








I've got mostly the same components on both bikes: Mavic Crossride wheels, Shimano 105 components, Avid BB7 brakes. (I've noted this before but I'll repeat it: the Crossride wheels are not compatible with 11-speed road cassettes, but I liked the price, so I am running only 10 cogs). I've currently got Continental Contact tires on one bike and WTB Nano 40C on the other. The Contact tires are marked 37 mm, but measure more like 33 mm wide. I'll try them on the road a bit, but I think I'll want something fatter for dirt road riding, so I may end up getting either another pair of Nanos or try something else.

The handlebars are wrapped with two overlapping rolls of tape from Bike Nashbar. This has the effect of making the tape a bit thicker, but not doubly thick, because I didn't use the whole roll of either tape. The "nuclear green" color turned out to be a near perfect match for the green color we used on the frames. I'm sure it won't look as good after a few dusty rides, but it's fun to have it looking like this once.

I've more or less replicated the fit on both of our respective road bikes, and in both cases I ended up with 4-5 cm of spacers, which seems to be consistent with the experience of others. My other complaint about the frame design is that the small sizes have a very steep seat tube. On the 48 cm frame it's 75.5 degrees, which puts the seat very far forward. The 2 cm of setback on the seatpost couldn't get the saddle I originally bought back far enough, so I swapped it for one off another bike that had longer rails. Shorter frames like this do tend to need steeper seat angles, but in this particular case, clearance between the rear tire and seat tube is not the limiting clearance for tires, so I think it could have been a half to whole degree shallower and still allowed enough space for any tire that would fit between the chainstays.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

mow4cash said:


> I've read through this thread and am pretty sure this is the frame I want. Should I go with the bb30 and buy my own adapter or take a chance on BSA? Im going to get the frame from Jenny. I have an apex group I'm going to use with either the bikehubstore hubs or novatech laced to pacenti sl25. I'm going use this for my northeast winter training bike. Do you think I should get the axles, headset, and seatpost from Jenny or can you guys recommend some other good brands that work. Thanks for all your posts they have been great to read.


Dont do BSA. If PF30 is an option get that (it is the safest). Fallowed by the 24mm version of PF then fallowed by BB30 then BSA.

You don't want metal threads in a carbon shell if you can avoid it. If you cant avoid it you want larger diameter pieces of metal.

Besides used BB30 cranksets are better and cheaper. For $35 (shipped) I bought a used x9 BB30 crankset with an unused original spider. A single spider and a huge single chainring (to big for trail or xc use but totally sellable. Also came with a direct mount chain guide ($90 retail).

Essentially everything someone would yank off if they bought an entire x1 1x11 system w/ x-sync.

Then for $20 I bought another x9

When on ebay the absolute least expensive SRAM GXP crankset with removable spider so you can use direct mount chainrings is going to cost $75-100 (x5) or $100-220 other offerings.

Thats CRAZY!!!!!

Then if you want new I think specialized has some crazy light weight crankset for super cheap. I think its ~$200 and it might be made by SRAM but don't quote me on that i never looked it up.

Neither of my BB30 cranksets came with the 13mm spacer but I found them on ebay for $5 a piece AND my LBS called SRAM and SRAM said they would replace the lost spacers under warranty!!!!

So I bought one online and got 2 more coming to the LBS free of charge.

Anyways

PF30 is the best and if press fit isnt an option then get BB30

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

The Miracle is made as a BB30, then a BSA insert is stuffed in to add threads. 

Either way, it'll be metal on carbon somewhere in the mix. 
The BB30 sleeve is also metal. 

As far as we've seen or heard, I'm the only guy that's had an issue w/ the BSA insert in this frame but who knows for sure...

Give-
School me on why PF30 is better than BB30 when you can. 

-JCB


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> The Miracle is made as a BB30, then a BSA insert is stuffed in to add threads.
> 
> Either way, it'll be metal on carbon somewhere in the mix.
> The BB30 sleeve is also metal.
> ...


Please look at the following 2 pictures... If the answer doesn't jump out at you then read on.










When you press a pf30 BB into a frame you have a friction fitted mount that has some room to give. A total failure would mean cracking the entire bottom bracket shell. Aside from that there is no failure that could ruin the bike.

In BB30 you have a metal insert that is somehow glued to the frame. You will rarely see this system in use on a carbon MTB designed by a major company for a very good reason. It just cant be as robust as the PF30.

When you pedal you are putting extreme forces on what keeps that metal insert in the frame. If what keeps that insert in fails the frame is garbage. Add in that you CAN NOT deny that there is a lower quality standard on the chiner frames and you are asking four trouble.

BSA could be worse depending on how they implement the design. That said most of the frames I have seen it makes no difference bb30 or BSA they are both in the same amount of trouble.

Just ordered a hard tail and they didn't even show online or mention on the phone anything about PF30. However they where quick to push BSA. You won't see Niner or Specialized doing that kind of silliness! The thing is that yes a lot of people have older parts they want to transfer over but its not worth the risks involved with glueing a metal insert into a frame! Or not sure which is worse but I have seen threaded carbon as well.

Its no good.

Anyways now you know. If you have not ordered your frame yet try and get PF30.

Plenty of people have broken their BB30 and BSA shells (not like its super common but its happened multiple times)

So just isnt worth it..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Givmedew said:


> .
> Plenty of people have broken their BB30 and BSA shells (not like its super common but its happened multiple times)
> 
> So just isnt worth it..
> ...











Annnnd no ones ever had any problems with PF30 I suppose ?

It's not easier AND cheaper to manufacture is it ? Specialized , Niner et al are doing it because it's a superior system to BSA and nothing to do with profit margins at all .

What happens when these "extreme forces" are put on what keeps the PF30 cups in the frame ? Could the carbon shell not flex and deform creating wear to the frame hence a ruined frame ?

Sorry I "CAN NOT deny" I don't buy your logic.

I would wager there have been far more people wth PF30 related problems than there have been BSA related. But hey BSA BB's haven't been around that long so whadoiknow  ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Please don't include Niner in the stack when referencing to high quality. 
I'll listen for multiple cracks, no matter the material. 
And I'll listen when Niner is mentioned if you are talking about seat tubes reamed wide. 

What will they call themselves if they introduce 650 1/2? I mean, 27B. I mean, 3 bears? 
But- I want their cross/gravel/whatever it is.


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> View attachment 992967
> 
> 
> Annnnd no ones ever had any problems with PF30 I suppose ?
> ...


Are you really going to be this big of a jerk and idiot at the same time.

You don't see any difference?

Look man you can be a fool other people will have no problem understanding.

BSA I'm not sure where you get off using no common sense.

I mean your rebuttal is that BSA has been around forever (which means it must be the best technology or best way to do it) and then that companies are cheap...

Try they don't want to have to deal with warranties and these Chinese companies could care less.

Carbon fiber wasn't around when BSA became a standard. Frames where metal it made nothing but sense to just cut threads into the metal.

Now it doesn't make as much sense to cut those threads into carbon because it could easily strip.

So what makes more sense? Glueing a piece of metal onto the plastic or inserting a plastic press fit bearing shell into the plastic bottom bracket shell.

There is more area for the forces to be push against. If the shell gives its not going to cause glue to crack.

Gluing metal to plastic doesn't always work.

But look man I don't need to persuade you... I hope that you keep buying BSA frames. It will keep the used prices of my 24mm cranks .

Just look at those pictures... Zoom in! You can even see how nasty of a job hey did gluing it in.

When it comes to a cheap frame that might not have the best quality control I'll take a BB setup that if it isn't perfect I can fix it and never have to worry about the glue between plastic and metal coming undone over the course of 5+ years.

Not to mention that in the winter the metal and plastic are going to expand at different rates. The glue will fail easier.

Just not worth it and for what reason? BSA cranksets cost more and the cheapest ones certainly weigh more.

All so you can have the same design that existed before you where born.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Givmedew said:


> Are you really going to be this big of a jerk and idiot at the same time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes :lol:

Do you intend to continue to display your arrogance and lack of education ?

Careful now folks Givemec0ck has a keyboard and he's not afraid to use it. 

Fat Biker


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

None of the bottom bracket standards are perfect. I have two PF30 bikes. The Cervelo was inserted with loctite as per the manufacturers instructions. I sure hope the bearings last a long time because getting that sucker out is going to be hard. The rest of my bikes past and present have been BSA and several have been Santa Cruz or Giant carbon mountain bikes...not a single issue with the BB bonding. BSA sure makes it easy to maintain, repair, thread internal cables etc. Also I run Race Face, Shimano, FSA and Sram cranks some of which have been gotten at dirt cheap prices as well. I bike tour quite a bit into 3rd worldish areas and I carry spare shimano external BBs which can be replaced at any work shop with simple pliers...can't say that for PF30 or any press in. But PF30 is lighter and with a whole array of adapters available you can run just about any crankset you want...BSA can't do that. Pick the one that works for you.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Snipe said:


> None of the bottom bracket standards are perfect. I have two PF30 bikes. The Cervelo was inserted with loctite as per the manufacturers instructions. I sure hope the bearings last a long time because getting that sucker out is going to be hard. The rest of my bikes past and present have been BSA and several have been Santa Cruz or Giant carbon mountain bikes...not a single issue with the BB bonding. BSA sure makes it easy to maintain, repair, thread internal cables etc. Also I run Race Face, Shimano, FSA and Sram cranks some of which have been gotten at dirt cheap prices as well. I bike tour quite a bit into 3rd worldish areas and I carry spare shimano external BBs which can be replaced at any work shop with simple pliers...can't say that for PF30 or any press in. But PF30 is lighter and with a whole array of adapters available you can run just about any crankset you want...BSA can't do that. Pick the one that works for you.


^This

Thank you Snipe some common sense at last .

BSA works for me that is MY choice. I don't feel the need to insult someone in an internet forum over their particular choice of product.

As you rightly point out most BB standards have various advantages and disadvantages over their counterparts . Armed with as much information as possible I believe it is then down to the individual to make a choice after weighing up the pros and cons of each.

No one is right or wrong.

I have had steel , aluminium , carbon , titanium , and magnesium frames in the past. All of which have been BSA with no issues whatsoever for the type of riding I do .

Just as a point of order I don't beleive I said BSA is/was better/best (I may think so but didn't actually state it as fact) than any other BB standard. I just chose that standard in reference to the arrogant nature of the previous post.

Fat Biker


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Fat Biker said:


> ^This
> 
> Thank you Snipe some common sense at last .
> 
> ...


I have to agree with the snipe here. There are pulses and minuses with all of them. I have a tallboy with BSA and friends have other carbon frames with press fit BB. All have been flawless. No delam/disbond, creaking, etc that I've heard about. I've changed my cranks out a few times moving to a 1x10 with ease and know those that have endured with a certain crank setup due to lack of interchangeable parts or for economics.

I would think that there's a difference between molded in inserts and bonded in inserts. I'm not 100% sure what some of the top brands do, but the MB appear to bond in the BSA sleeve to the PF30 sleeve. It's unclear to me if the outer sleeve is drilled and bonded or molded in? Molded in metal inserts generally have features that both clock the cylindrical part radially and lock it in axial. This has been my experience with aerospace parts anyways years ago. Any composite engineers out there that can comment?

Personally I like the flexibility, variety and economy of BSA. After all its a 500 frame, get a new one in 3-5 years. If the BSA insert fails I'll bond it back in. If that doesn't work buy that contraption that Chicken Bones has, or another frame. Problem solved. No right or wrong answer here, matter of preference..


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

SufferFest said:


> I have to agree with the snipe here. There are pulses and minuses with all of them.
> 
> Personally I like the flexibility, variety and economy of BSA. After all its a 500 frame, get a new one in 3-5 years. If the BSA insert fails I'll bond it back in. If that doesn't work buy that contraption that Chicken Bones has, or another frame. Problem solved. No right or wrong answer here, matter of preference..


Again. This is how I see it . Some others seem to be err .... . shall we say , a little more evangelical for certain standards. 
YMMV 

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Boy... that escalated quickly.






How about it? Threaded BBs were around for how long now? Not counting the Team Fat Chance press bottom brackets that became old before new was again old more recently. 
Anyway- BSA has worked great. But then- so did 1", before 1 1/8th worked great before tapered became great. 
Heck... I sure liked v-brakes.

Anyway, threaded sure treated me well for many moons but I'm not on the drawing board of a group that glues bikes together and needs more room for purchase. 
And as seemingly the sole person w/ a BSA issue on the MB- I'd do it again. Unless there was a PF30, then I'd stuff the contraption in that to make it eccentric.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh and before we get to far away-
Spencer- Your bikes are great looking. And nice builds. 
As for the twins.... I'm not sure how I'd feel next to my lady on a matching bike but that might be my sensitive side talking!


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> Yes :lol:
> 
> Do you intend to continue to display your arrogance and lack of education ?
> 
> ...


It's not arrogance. I didn't come out quoting you with a ******** meme. Someone asked a question and I answered it. Then some ******* quotes it posts a silly meme and says he doesn't agree and states some dreamed up reason on how a PF30 BB could damage a frame.

Have you seen this happen or read about it happening? I have not but I know for certain the BSA adapter that gets bonded in has come out.

If someone had a used chiner frame and it was BSA and I could save money buying it I would because its almost a non issue.

However, if I can choose new I'm going with PF30 for the reasons that I stated which are accurate.

You can be a cock all you want and post your little jokes which if I was gay or any readers are I would be quite offended at your little gay joke. But I am not so it only makes me laugh that you stoop down to the equivalent of calling someone gay to try to immaculate them.

I'm not hear to argue that PF30 is better because it is lighter, or stiffer, or because you have more crankset options (the BSA compatible cranksets and then all the BB30 cranksets as well).

I'm hear simply to say that the frame is less likely to be damaged with the PF30 bottom bracket. Its a little bit of common sense. How much less likely... Not much but the bottom line is I see people riding 5, 10, 15, 30 year old bikes... So replacing it in 2-5 years is not a line of defense to the issue.

If PF30 frames are likely to last longer then it is my first preference. Even if I have to deal with any perceived downsides to the PF30 BB system.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Givmedew said:


> It's not arrogance. I didn't come out quoting you with a ******** meme. Someone asked a question and I answered it. Then some ******* quotes it posts a silly meme and says he doesn't agree and states some dreamed up reason on how a PF30 BB could damage a frame.
> 
> Have you seen this happen or read about it happening? I have not but I know for certain the BSA adapter that gets bonded in has come out.
> 
> ...


My my we are sensitive aren't we ? 
I'm sorry you got all butt hurt because I dared to disagree with you.

I get it PF30 is the holy grail . Happy now ? 
Please stop ruining this great thread with your inane drivel .
Move along.

Sorry folks .

Back to Chinese carbon cyclocross frames.

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Kids Kids! Don't make me stop this car. 
Or make some clown pants Moderator step in (I'm looking at you Eric) and stop it for us. 

Safe to say you each took the high road while the other was TOTALLY out of line and I can'e believe what he said and your point was totally missed and you alone see the truth and.... I don't know. What ever else you need to hear to start your Wednesday happily. 

-JCB


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Givmedew said:


> It's not arrogance. I didn't come out quoting you with a ******** meme. Someone asked a question and I answered it. Then some ******* quotes it posts a silly meme and says he doesn't agree and states some dreamed up reason on how a PF30 BB could damage a frame.
> 
> Have you seen this happen or read about it happening? I have not but I know for certain the BSA adapter that gets bonded in has come out.
> 
> ...


I think the whole press fit business was started to be able to make the BB shells wider and house the bearings inside the shell so the down/seat tubes could be bigger...stiffer bike...lighter too. PF30 came along to make the press in process easier and to allow the frames to be manufactured with less tolerance since the plastic bearing cover would conform to the shell. So I don't think that the initial intent of press fit was to make the frame last longer. If we had lots of failures of the bonded BSA then I could buy into that argument but I don't see it on the forums. I suppose theoretically you are right that the bonding agent could fail and the BSA insert slip. Would that automatically result in a damaged frame or could it simply be rebonded. Time will tell whether we in fact have a rash of failures of the BSA bonded inserts. For the time being it would appear that its not the case.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)




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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

I know there have been some concerns and comments made about the rear drop out design and the small screws that retain them. Has anybody seen any failures of these dropouts? 

I had an email to Jenny also about the front axle design and she says that is a non issue now and completely fixed. Is everybody happy with the axle design and is it better than a QR fork which would appear to be an option when ordering?


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

SufferFest said:


> View attachment 993497


Nice bike SufferFest 

Now we just need moar pics, weights and specs 

Come dude ya know the drill LOL

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

qspencer said:


> This is mine, a 58 cm. I'm 6'3" and this is about as small a frame as I can get away with riding.
> View attachment 992885


qspencer if you don't mind me asking what are your other measurements pls.

I'm 6'2" with a 32" - 33" inseam . 
Most 56's that I have tried (and a 54 Scott that seemed particularly tall) seem good to OK for standover but come up short on reach. I like a steeper seat tube angle so run a zero set back seatpost. So that rules out lengthening the cockpit that way. I also don't like running more than a 100mm stem so stretching things out front is out too. 
So I was wondering if you could give out some real world numbers on the 58 please and how comfortable you feel in relation to your own measurements and the bikes.

TIA

Fat Biker

P.S. Dunno if it's the paint scheme or what but it sure looks to be on the small side for a 58 ?


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Yeah, each drop out has two small machine screws that affix the dropout to the rear triangle. There seems to be features that support the loading on the dropout/rear-end interface - Braking forces will do the same. I think my preference would be dropouts molded into the frame, but this frame is not that. I did attempt to snug up the two small screws, and they were well torqued so I didn't mess with them. Once the axle is in place, it's likely pretty robust as an assembly. Now that you mention it I may check them later on to see if they've any play after a few miles. 

The front axles that I received appeared to be post-fix. They fit well, without any modification and hold the wheel in place and on center. Here again, there are features (inboard) at the fork thru holes that center the wheel once the axle is snugged up (I have 15mm Hope hub spacers). It's hard to say if QR would be any better without any real testing, but the thru axle configuration appears to be good enough. I would order it again with thru's front and aft. The thru's also conceptually seem a little safer with disc brake forces on the axle/dropout. 

I can take some pics of each if you're interested.


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

SufferFest said:


> Yeah, each drop out has two small machine screws that affix the dropout to the rear triangle. There seems to be features that support the loading on the dropout/rear-end interface - Braking forces will do the same. I think my preference would be dropouts molded into the frame, but this frame is not that. I did attempt to snug up the two small screws, and they were well torqued so I didn't mess with them. Once the axle is in place, it's likely pretty robust as an assembly. Now that you mention it I may check them later on to see if they've any play after a few miles.
> 
> The front axles that I received appeared to be post-fix. They fit well, without any modification and hold the wheel in place and on center. Here again, there are features (inboard) at the fork thru holes that center the wheel once the axle is snugged up (I have 15mm Hope hub spacers). It's hard to say if QR would be any better without any real testing, but the thru axle configuration appears to be good enough. I would order it again with thru's front and aft. The thru's also conceptually seem a little safer with disc brake forces on the axle/dropout.
> 
> I can take some pics of each if you're interested.


Thanks for the info. No pictures necessary.

On a different topic thats been discussed before is frame colors and painting. I know the MB paint price is pretty cheap and if you know what you want at ordering then its hard to beat it. I bumped into a local rider on the trails and we ended up discussing the repaint job he did on his carbon S Works. The clear coat started to fail so he sanded it off and sprayed it with this...2K Aero-Spray? Paints ? Aerosol Paints & Coatings - Eastwood It looked like factory paint. He even reproduced the gloss on matte black sticker effect. It opens up some options for after purchase creativity or repair.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Suffer- Nice bike. I like the bar end shifters. WHat's in the seat pack? Tent and sleeping bag? The stem/spacers look good. Not too much stack and good rise. Well done. 

I rode 160 miles on mostly road yesterday. I really wanted to take the MB but as a SS I was too afeared that I didn't have what it took. 
Now I'm considering how to go w/ a few more gears but w/ Salsa Woodchipper bars (all flared at the ends) a bar end shifter might be odd and smacking into everything. 
The MB might make that same loop next week, we'll see how and if it fares. And if I make it too! 

As for the rear drop outs- I did have concerns with them but someone said they had the exact same set up on their 29er mountain bike and had experienced ZERO issues with them over a several year timeline. 
In my short time with them- also no issues. They are not a concern of mine anymore. 

I'd go w/ the thru axle over the QR. The first axles they sent us were the wrong design. Now they are sending the right stuff, and it works fine. You might consider ordering 2 F axles so that when (if?) you lose one at the trailhead somehow, you'll have a spare and won't have to have it send from China! 

-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Suffer- Nice bike. I like the bar end shifters. WHat's in the seat pack? Tent and sleeping bag? The stem/spacers look good. Not too much stack and good rise. Well done.
> 
> I rode 160 miles on mostly road yesterday. I really wanted to take the MB but as a SS I was too afeared that I didn't have what it took.
> Now I'm considering how to go w/ a few more gears but w/ Salsa Woodchipper bars (all flared at the ends) a bar end shifter might be odd and smacking into everything.
> ...


I wish I could fit a tent and bag in there. haha. Are you saying it's too big???

I don't know about the woodchippers on the MB. I put a couple of pix up of the WC on another bike. They are like ram's horns - very flared. I went with Salsa cowbells that have a slight flare, 6 deg or something. Very road bike handlebar like - but compact and shallow drop. I went with the 420s but should have went with the 440s. Here's what the woodchippers look like.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

No- it's not too big, but it is big!
I'm using the woodchippers now. I've alternately thought they were lame, then good, then odd, the semi ok. 
After plenty of time using drops yesterday without any flare- straight bars feel pathetic!
And they don't look too terrible with the bar shifter. Thanks for the shot. 

-JCB


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

had to buy a proper seat collar, the one I bought from MB wanst all that good. Can recommend the one I bought, a thomson seat collar, sits very well with only 2.8Nm torque.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Really? 
I'd take a Thomson over the MB collar they sent me but even still, I like their collar. 
Really seems like it'll do the trick and was CHEAP!
Wait... I wanted this build to be cheap. it was going to be under 1K w/ old parts. 
Now I'm probably at about $1400 or so. 
I should have gotten a new collar too!


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Ah im already way passed my initial budget.......


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Fat Biker said:


> qspencer if you don't mind me asking what are your other measurements pls.
> 
> I'm 6'2" with a 32" - 33" inseam .
> Most 56's that I have tried (and a 54 Scott that seemed particularly tall) seem good to OK for standover but come up short on reach. I like a steeper seat tube angle so run a zero set back seatpost. So that rules out lengthening the cockpit that way. I also don't like running more than a 100mm stem so stretching things out front is out too.
> So I was wondering if you could give out some real world numbers on the 58 please and how comfortable you feel in relation to your own measurements and the bikes.





> P.S. Dunno if it's the paint scheme or what but it sure looks to be on the small side for a 58 ?


I just measured my inseam and it was 34". For about the last 10 years I rode an aluminum road bike that was 61 cm (traditional design with horizontal top tube). Top tube was 58.5 cm and stem was 120 mm. It was a pretty good fit. My first venture into Chinese carbon frames was a replacement for that frame that I got about a year ago. Most of the Chinese sellers don't make a 60, so I found the 58 with the tallest head tube and longest top tube that I could find. The frame I bought claimed a 58 cm top tube, so I figured I could use the same stem, but when I got it, I measured it and I think it was more like 57.5 or even slightly less, so I got a 130 mm stem. I was able to duplicate my old fit pretty well with that combination, but I think I'd still prefer a longer top tube and shorter stem given the option. When I got the MC286, it turns out that the geometry is strikingly similar to my other 58 cm frame. Top tubes, head and seat tube angles are all basically identical to the other bike. Stack height appears to be less by 1 cm because I've got 4 cm of spacer instead of 3.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks Q 
I think I'll go for a 58cm too then by the sounds of it. 
What kind of standover clearance do you have on level ground please ? 
My family jewels are particularly sensitive to top tube interference  

This will be used mainly off-road so I would like to be able to stand over the bike without instant contact betwixt frame and body. 

Pity it hasn't got a cm more stack and a cm less at the seat tube junction (more of a top tube slope. But still the same reach) then it would be perfect.


Fat Biker


P.S. Dunno if I've missed it but do you know the total weights of your bike by any chance please ?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Mine is a single speed w/ no real light parts. 
It's just shy of 20lbs w/ mountain wheels and cranks. 
There's nothing light about the WTB bars or the Nano 40 tires. 

But I sure do like it. Chased the GF on a great local singletrack ride last night. It's amazing how quick I can reel her in once the trail is smoove and up. Any chunk and I slow way way down so she gets ahead again. 
But, damned fun. 

Oh- weeks ago there was talk about rear tire rub on this frame. 
I"m running the WTB Nano 40 tires and it's a snug fit but- NO rub in clean conditions.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

I'm in the same neighborhood as JCB with respect to the weigh-in at just over 20lbs. So not light weight by any stretch. Wheelset and tires really must tip the scale. I have a set of older mtn bike wheels. Hope Pro 2 hubs (pre-Evo), DT Comp Spokes, Mavic 217 with Brass nipples - sturdy but heavy for a cross/road machine. The 11-36 cassette and large tires 35c with tubes adds to the mass. 

But like others have said, it's a great ride,, and feels lighter than it is. Some other build specs:
Salsa Cowbells bars
Cane creek brake levers and crosstop levers
Jagwire brake cables
Dura-ace bar end shifters 10spd
Raceface evolve stem
BB7s Road brakes
Sram cranks 42t salsa ring
XT cassette
9spd shadow XT rear mech
whipperman chain
WTB saddle
MB post

I had the wheels, tires, stem crank set and seat. I'm guessing that I spent right around $1000.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

No issues w/ the 10 speed bar end shifters and the 9spd mech? 
I'm not schooled in the intricacies of swapping amongst that stuff. 

My seeesta just did the Oregon Outback on her mountain bike (despite the amazing advice from her clearly brilliant brother- who knows about zero on that ride) and is now all about something more along a cross/gravel what ever type bike. And low and behold- she's asking about bar end shifters w/ interupters. 
When possible Suffer, please take a few shots for me to forward her on. Or if you have already, let me know and i'll search back. (Wow. Does that ever sound lazy of me)

Just over 20 lbs seems fine by me. 
I look at it like a weight budget. You can save here and there but I'm willing to spend weight on some stuff. 
At least on mountain bikes- bad tires (as in too light tires) can really be less fun and down right spooky. 
And if I spend all day fixing flats it'd be the same on the MB. 
Speaking of flats on the Miracle- the F wheel won't stay full over a two day period. So dang. There goes a bit of Stans while I suss that out.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'll just refer her to the Origin 8 you posted.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> No issues w/ the 10 speed bar end shifters and the 9spd mech?
> I'm not schooled in the intricacies of swapping amongst that stuff.


Does it have to be bar end shifters ?

Brifters look tidier IMO why not those with a 9speed rear mech ? It's what I use on my parts bin experiment/contraption.

Ultegra 10 speed mated to XTR 9 speed works fine 

Fat Biker


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

SufferFest said:


> I wish I could fit a tent and bag in there. haha. Are you saying it's too big???
> 
> I don't know about the woodchippers on the MB. I put a couple of pix up of the WC on another bike. They are like ram's horns - very flared. I went with Salsa cowbells that have a slight flare, 6 deg or something. Very road bike handlebar like - but compact and shallow drop. I went with the 420s but should have went with the 440s. Here's what the woodchippers look like.
> View attachment 993745
> ...


Is that how the front brake levers are supposed to be for those bars? If so would brifters work ok? I see you put an aerobar/braze on shifter in the end. I have always been a fan of that on long distance touring bikes that will be ridden more upright but have never committed to it, i actually just sold my 2x11 shimano aero bar shifters, but more because I want 1x9 or 1x10.

Anyways how do you like this setup overall?
How do use it?
What don't you like about it (please find something you dislike)? 
If your break levers where the shifters how do you think that would affect things?

I have the Hope cable to hydraulic X2 kit that I want to use since there doesn't seem to be any other way to have hydraulic brakes with aero and top levers except to use normal mountain bike hydro brakes with a jerry rigged system that pulls them when you pull the aero brakes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> No issues w/ the 10 speed bar end shifters and the 9spd mech?
> I'm not schooled in the intricacies of swapping amongst that stuff.


For Shimano you can use 8,9,10 speed road shifters on 8,9,10 speed road derailleurs and 8,9 speed mountain derailleurs. Also 8,9 speed mountain shifters on 8,9,10 speed road derailleurs.

Some pre 10 speed Dura-Ace stuff is incompatible.

Also there are SRAM 9 Speed grip shifters and even some trigger shifters that are made for Shimano derailleurs. You can use them on 8,9,10 road or 8,9 mountain.

All that said,

The jockey wheel design between 8,9,10 is not identical. There are differences in the wheel itself and how much it is allowed to float from left to right.

Meaning, yes they are compatible but shifting could be a bit compromised.

Coming from someone who has many of these mix and match set ups it has never been a big enough issue to pay to replace the part with the correct part.

My wife's brand new build is using a ~15 yr old 8 speed Shimano with SRAM Rocket 9 speed shifters. My road bike is 10 speed rival groupset with 10 speed campagnolo brifters. I'm running a dura-ace 10 speed derailleur on a rigid mountain bike w/ 9 speed shifters.

So there are a lot of options out there.

9 speed SRAM mountain works on 10 speed mountain dynasys Shimano (cheap way to get a clutch mech on an existing SRAM build). That also means that the opposite is true and 10 speed Shimano shifters work on 9 speed SRAM derailleurs.

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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice Dew. 
Thanks for the schooling.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

If only someone made a cheap mash-up 10sp clutched system I'd be happy .
CX1 rears or XX1 and X01 are still too expensive IMO at the moment .
I wonder how feasable it would be to make your own custom spacers for between separate sprockets , to make your own custom cassette ? Assuming you could find individual sprockets in the correct ratios of course .

Just thinking aloud 


Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Aren't Surly SS cogs made to be spaced at 9s? 

I wish there was some low tech/weight hack to make a 3x1 w/ a minimal chaintensioner out back and a F der up front. 
1 for up, 1 for flat, 1 for pave. 
BUt noooooo..... The industry wants us all to have endless options out back as I continue, in my cromag state, to pedal squares no matter what bike I'm on!


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Aren't Surly SS cogs made to be spaced at 9s?
> 
> I wish there was some low tech/weight hack to make a 3x1 w/ a minimal chaintensioner out back and a F der up front.
> 1 for up, 1 for flat, 1 for pave.
> BUt noooooo..... The industry wants us all to have endless options out back as I continue, in my cromag state, to pedal squares no matter what bike I'm on!


I think the closest ya gonna get is a 3 speed internal geared hub to that set up JCB. But that's about face of what you seem to be aiming for. And I doubt it would give you the range either 

Just keep stomping squares and smiling 

Fat Biker


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Givmedew said:


> Is that how the front brake levers are supposed to be for those bars? If so would brifters work ok? I see you put an aerobar/braze on shifter in the end. I have always been a fan of that on long distance touring bikes that will be ridden more upright but have never committed to it, i actually just sold my 2x11 shimano aero bar shifters, but more because I want 1x9 or 1x10.
> 
> Anyways how do you like this setup overall?
> How do use it?
> ...


Well no (on the levers), but with these bars and the bike geometry I ride in the drops and it's nice to have the brake levers accessible. There's also crosstops for more upright riding. It's actually very comfortable and user-friendly. I guess it might look dumb. 
This is set up as a 1x9 and due to that there's not much shifting on the road. Generally this bike has bags on it (touring), or a babyseat - the frame has many attachment points being CroMo.

As for downsides of the setup:
Bars are heavy (lots of material) but very comfortable with many hand positions
Shifting accessibility is not as good as an integrated brake/shifter - for technical riding or when shifting often not recommended
Brake levers are hard to position on these bars and use them in the drops and on top
Barend shifter get caught and scrapped up; I can see them snapping if you crash - I wouldn't do this on a x-bike.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I built up a bike a few years ago with a generator hub w/ a drum brake and internal rear 8speed. 
It was a great sloppy weather winter daily user but that internal hub was like pedaling under water. 
But- it wasn't a high end version. It seemed the harder you tried, the greater it would resist you! 
Now it's recycled into scrap.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Here's my new build:
















Frame/Fork: MB-286
Rims: Bontrager Mustang 29 OSB Tubeless
Spokes: Sapim Race
Hubs: Novatec 771/772SB
Tires: Kenda Happy Medium DTC SCT 700-32 Tubeless
Crankset: Shimano 5800
Chain: Ultegra 6800
Cassette: Shimano 5800
Brakes: Hayes CX Pro
Bars: Chinese Carbon
Brifters: Shimano 5800
FD: Shimano 6800
RD: Shimano XT 10-spd Shadow Plus (modified lever arm)
Cables: Jagwire Road Pro
Seat: Performancebike Forte Pro SL
Pedals: Shimano XT T-780
Seat post, clamp, headset, headset spacers, axles, bottle cage: Miracle Bikes


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Niiiice! Keep us posted on the bars. 
I know there are lots of you that have used and like those bars. I'm not yet brave enough.

Am I wrong? Or is the lettering taken from this ole classic?








If so, that's AWESOME!!

-JCB


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## Swerny (Apr 1, 2004)

Slyver said:


> Here's my new build:
> 
> View attachment 995895
> 
> ...


that looks REALLY sweet!

Congrats!


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Niiiice! Keep us posted on the bars.
> I know there are lots of you that have used and like those bars. I'm not uet brave enough.
> 
> Am I wrong? Or is the lettering taken from this ole classic?
> ...


I have been using chinese carbon bars on several bikes now for a few years. My favorite so far on the road/cross bikes is a 3T Ergonova style bar. Have had no issues whatsoever.


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Slyver said:


> Here's my new build:
> 
> View attachment 995895
> 
> ...


How did you modify the lever arm on the RD to make it compatible. What is the shifting like? I have always used a 9 speed xt derailleur with the ten speed brifters but it would be great to have the clutch derailleur.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Niiiice! Keep us posted on the bars.
> I know there are lots of you that have used and like those bars. I'm not uet brave enough.
> 
> Am I wrong? Or is the lettering taken from this ole classic?
> ...


Yes, it's slightly modified from:









and made into a stencil/painted. It was my favorite game for a year or two back in the day. I am still a fan. 

I made another bike a bit ago with similar styling and have decided to use it for all bikes I make from now on. Last one was the Street Fighter Arrow, this one of course is the ninja.  (though it didn't show up very well in pics).

After painting on the stencils I gave it a few coats of satin clear. In the sun it looks amazing. The UD carbon with the clear coat gives a sweet multi-angle refraction (like tiger's eye). The pics really don't do it justice. I am quite pleased with the way it turned out.

As for how it rides, I haven't taken it into the mountains yet and that will be the true test, but I've gone for a couple rides (mostly road with a little offroad/gravel) and it is solid as a rock. Bunny hops like a fricken bmx and handles beautifully. I couldn't be happier.

It was a little heavier than I anticipated (20.2 lbs) but it has some pretty hefty wheels, so I suppose that is to be expected. Other than that, it's the perfect all around bike.

The handlebars are good and bad. I had them on my previous (temp) build, while I was waiting on deciding which frame to get. If I had to do it again, I would get different ones (though still chinese). They are strong, light, well made (as far as construction, if not design) and very comfortable, but I chose internal cabling which was a PITA to thread, especially with unbendable brake outer cables. This part of the design could have been better (I had to drill out the exit holes in order to get the cables through).


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Snipe said:


> How did you modify the lever arm on the RD to make it compatible. What is the shifting like? I have always used a 9 speed xt derailleur with the ten speed brifters but it would be great to have the clutch derailleur.


I calculated the proper lever arm length for the brifter pull ratio/cassette pitch (if you are interested, I will have to find my calculations somewhere), drilled a hole, tapped it for M6 and put in a banjo bolt (hayes brakes). Hayes Banjo Bolt

I also added a metal and rubber washer (which I drilled through to the banjo bolt hole) to increase the adjustability of the effective arm length. I tighten a bolt on the other side of the arm (on the other end of the banjo bolt) to keep the banjo bolt from rotating.

I run the cable from the stop, through the banjo bolt, and up around the other side.









I had this setup on another frame with the same shifters, but with a 10-spd cassette. It worked great. On this bike, not so much. Upshifting is flawless, whisper quiet, all 11 gears. Downshifting... It works perfectly for all but two shifts (32->28 and 12->11 are problematic (instead it goes 32->32/32-> 24 and 12->(12 with clicking), respectively)). It's as if there is some friction, or maybe chain tension, or spring tension, or something in the system that prevents it from going all the way down to where the downshift tells it to be. If I just barely touch the derailleur with my hand after shifting (<1/2lb (~200g pressure)), it shifts down, but going from the 12 cog to the 11 cog just won't happen with the proper cable tension to make the rest of the shifts work properly.

I worked on it for hours but couldn't get it to work, so its basically a ten speed. Oh well. It's a really nice ten speed. I will work on it again if I figure out what is wrong.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Slyver said:


> I calculated the proper lever arm length for the brifter pull ratio/cassette pitch (if you are interested, I will have to find my calculations somewhere), drilled a hole, tapped it for M6 and put in a banjo bolt (hayes brakes). Hayes Banjo Bolt
> 
> I also added a metal and rubber washer (which I drilled through to the banjo bolt hole) to increase the adjustability of the effective arm length. I tighten a bolt on the other side of the arm (on the other end of the banjo bolt) to keep the banjo bolt from rotating.
> 
> ...


Hi Slyver

Thanks for posting this soloution . I for one would be interested in seeing your calculations.

Does the sticking problem still occur when the cable enters the Hayes bolt from the 10 o'clock position ? 
From the picture it looks like you have it entering the Hayes bolt from the 4 o'clock position and exiting at 10 o'clock .
Sorry the picture seems to be about as clear as I can explain it (at least on my phone screen  ) 
It does seem like a friction issue you have from your description of the actuation though .

Fat Biker


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## Givmedew (Sep 4, 2014)

Slyver said:


> I calculated the proper lever arm length for the brifter pull ratio/cassette pitch (if you are interested, I will have to find my calculations somewhere), drilled a hole, tapped it for M6 and put in a banjo bolt (hayes brakes). Hayes Banjo Bolt
> 
> I also added a metal and rubber washer (which I drilled through to the banjo bolt hole) to increase the adjustability of the effective arm length. I tighten a bolt on the other side of the arm (on the other end of the banjo bolt) to keep the banjo bolt from rotating.
> 
> ...


What cable are you using?
Have you tried running a straight housing and shifter for troubleshooting purposes?

Try backing the high gear stop off a bit so its half way to having the chain come off the 11t cog. Then adjust... This will keep good tension in the cable.

Find out how much float is built into the pulley wheels on an 11t shifter and how much float is on your 10spd probably less float on the road 11 compared to mountain 10 and this will cause issues going one way or another. You can reduce float by making a shim or some sort of washer that reduces how much the pulley can mode from side to side. If you don't have access to an 11 speed derailleur just reduce the float a bit and see if thats the issue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

For years I used a modified mountain F mech w/ a 9s road shifter. 
Wasn't supposed to be compatible but I calculated it too....
Well, by calculating I mean I drilled a hole somewhere near where I thought it maybe should go. (+- 1.5 eyeballs) and moved the cable attachment point. 

But- that was a F mech on a 9s. There is plenty of grey area between shifts to live in, plus the trim. 

What it would take to make your set up work would be beyond my maths skillz and once the dremel and saws came out things would only get worse.
10 and 11s are using such tight tolerances. 

Good luck sleuthing out the answer to the shifting gremlins. 

This thread has really covered some ground and helped educate me. 
Much more than the usual MTBR "is this seat OK for a 29er?" debris that falls into bickering. 

I've learned about paint, stickers, BBs, axle standards, frog modified mechs, and plenty of other great things. 

go ride, and thanks. 
-JCB


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Slyver said:


> I calculated the proper lever arm length for the brifter pull ratio/cassette pitch (if you are interested, I will have to find my calculations somewhere), drilled a hole, tapped it for M6 and put in a banjo bolt (hayes brakes). Hayes Banjo Bolt
> 
> I also added a metal and rubber washer (which I drilled through to the banjo bolt hole) to increase the adjustability of the effective arm length. I tighten a bolt on the other side of the arm (on the other end of the banjo bolt) to keep the banjo bolt from rotating.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info. its a tad more complicated than I had hoped for. though ten speed would be perfect since I have several sets of ten speed brifters both shimano and sram. I would like to get just ten speed clutch derailleur of some sort so I will start looking at compatibility charts and see if anything works. Otherwise I will be drilling holes in lever arms. thanks


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

I may have found the friction. The exit of the cable from where it starts on the derailleur to where it enters the banjo bolt has had the teflon completely rubbed off. I looked at it and its pretty obviously metal on metal contact under tension (the angle of the cable is different than designed due to my modification). That has a pretty high coefficient of friction. 

I ordered some nosed ferrules (I had no extras anywhere), so when they arrive, I will see if that fixes the problem.


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## Slyver (Sep 14, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> Hi Slyver
> 
> Thanks for posting this soloution . I for one would be interested in seeing your calculations.
> 
> ...


Looking back, my calculated lever length is a little complicated (I can make it simpler with a little algebra which will take some work), and if it turns out to be accurate I will re-derive the formula and post it, but at the moment, the calculated and measured are sufficiently different that it is not worth the time. Once I figure out the friction thing, dial it in and measure it, I will post that.

But, just so you know, my calculated lever length (the distance from the lever fulcrum to where the cable enters the lever) on the XT 10spd shadow plus with 11 speed brifters (1.71mm cable pull (calculated, not measured)) is:

10 spd cassette: 19.5mm
11 spd cassette: 18.5mm

However, my measured length is currently 17.1mm. As I said, it really isn't working as intended with the friction, so I will know better soon.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks Slyver I look forward to your update .
I much prefer Shimano's action to Sram's but still like the idea of a clutched rear mech , so this would be a great soloution. 


As a side note, do Shimano not make a CX clutched rear mech for 11 speed to go with the hubs , front mech and disk brakes yet ? Is such a thing on the horizon / drawing board / at proto testing stage yet ? I may have missed it but it would seem like an obvious addition to me ? ? ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Hi I'm John Chicken Bones and I'm adicted to my Miracle bike. 

Just spent most of the day on it. Gravel, chunky gravel, too much pave, and plenty of time riding with one of my favorite people. 
A day very well spent by my estimation. 

Got a chance to rip down some rough roads. 
Bike felt skittish so I let air out of my fat (by CX standards) Nano 40s. 
Bike then felt great. Really good. Comfy and fast. 
Maybe... Just maybe too twitchy on the fast paved parts but I've always like twitchy. 

After the first 60 miles I raised the seat a bit, and the stem one spacer. 
In time I'm sure this frame will see gears. 
It's just too good to have short days on. 

Need a hydro road lever w/ no shifter? It's hard to fault these TRP Hylex but I've written that before. They're still fantastic. Lots of long down and no issues w/ heat or fading. 

Bike Hub Store hubs? As great as I've written of before. 
If I build a 29+ bike packing bike, it'll be w/ these. 

Wood Chipper bars? They're growing on me. 
Now I really like them, even the oddball weird flared drops. 

Wheels Manufacturing eccentric BB? Meh.... I'm not too wowed yet. Damn thing might be shifting ever so slightly. 
Why didn't I go w/ the Praxxis like you all told me? I don't remember but perhaps I should have listened. 

I hope spring/summer is treating you all as well as it finally is us in Crested Butte. 

Go ride. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Glad to hear you're finally getting to enjoy your new steed and getting some miles under her wheels Johnny. 

I wonder how much more you'll like her with gears ? 

Did somebody say "told ya so" bout the Praxis ? 
Quiet in the back now, hush up ! 
It can't have been me surely ?   
Just teasin Johnny sorry LOL

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I think I can rescue the Wheels Eccentric. 
The cranks I use (RF Turbine) have a wide flange on their base that makes it tough to tighten it properly. Instead I use a ball end allen and don't quite get the ummph it needs. 
I might just dremel a teeny groove in the crank arm that'll allow a real wrench to go in. 

Advised? Nope. 
Think I'll break em? 
Also nope.

And it's no sweat. If i had a motto it'd be "they told me so...". 
Seems I can't learn anything until I experience it myself.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Seems I can't learn anything until I experience it myself.


Me too Johnny me too LOL
I'd be a millionaire if I had a dime for everytime I was told. 
As my mother still says "One day son you'll learn. . . . . . . . . One day !"

Hurry up and get some gears on her anyway sir . 
Or are ya gonna get a set o Chinese carbon hoops first ? ? ? 
Now THAT would be sweet .

Not that I wanna put ideas in ya head 

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> The cranks I use (RF Turbine) have a wide flange on their base that makes it tough to tighten it properly. Instead I use a ball end allen and don't quite get the ummph it needs.
> I might just dremel a teeny groove in the crank arm that'll allow a real wrench to go in.
> 
> Advised? Nope.
> ...


Long way round but could you not fit everything up, cinch the crank tight as you do usually. Then remove the chainring from the cranks, then the cranks from the BB. Tighten the BB properly with a "real" hex wrench . Then refit everything. Or do you think you'd have too much tension in the chain ? 
Or too much faff on ?

Fat Biker


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

*My completed Chinese Carbn Cyclocross Build*

Just wanted to post (finally) my completed build of this bike. Had the wheels made for me (used the Bike Hub online site that JCB recommended - Love em!), and basically used parts from my old road bike to finish it off.

Still tweaking the saddle position, but it rides great. Sram Rival group with 11-32 cogset, tubeless wheels, Trp Spyre brakes.

Thanks for all your help.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice Gluddy! 
Another stealth rig that looks just dang great. What's the width on the Kendas?

On several side notes-
Screw you Fat Biker. I finally remembered why I went w/ the Wheels Eccentric BB over the Praxis you recommended. It's eccentric. 
There. Finally. Now I can sleep again. 
(JCBs last seen muttering to himself as he wanders away into the rain)

Anyway-
two questions guys-
Does anyone know of low cost thru axles that don't use a QR lever? To clean up the looks a bit? 
Something like this- but cheap? 
Black Lock
As we've finally solved the TA question, I'm opening it back up.

Also- 
Does anyone know of frame plugs that'll fill the non-used cable routes of a frame? 
I've seen them, but don't know a source or manufacturer.

________________________________________________________

Finished a ride a few days ago to a raging torrent of spring run off. 
No way, NO WAY could you wade it.

Had to shimmy our way over a soaked log more slippery than any substance yet known to man (above the previously mentioned torrent of doom). Hugging and humping it while whimpering about a loud watery grave. 
Perhaps the only thing more slippery than that log was a pair of kicked out Sidi shoes touching the log. 
No traction when they are new, significantly less now.

Walked a ways to the camper van, collected all sorts of tow straps and such. 
Came back to the torrent and built a Tyrolean traverse so that the 3 bikes could be zipped across the water before the last of us fumbled their way across the slippery log. 
One home made spring in the Rockies epic complete. No bikes or people lost. 
I wasn't on the MB and it has nothing to do w/ this thread.

Go ride but stay safe.

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Screw you Fat Biker. I finally remembered why I went w/ the Wheels Eccentric BB over the Praxis you recommended. It's eccentric.
> There. Finally. Now I can sleep again.
> (JCBs last seen muttering to himself as he wanders away into the rain)


Awwww shoot . Doe's this mean I'm off your Christmas card list ? :yikes: :shocked: :yesnod: :lol:

You got the BB loosening niggle sorted yet ?

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nope. 
Maybe. 
Not sure. 
Too much trail to ride this contraption. 

But, I'm on it tonight and will see. 
And Fats? I'll always send you a happy baby Jesus shopping day card. Always.


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## Bikrider (Mar 21, 2014)

Just ordered mine from Carbon Speed. I got one 26er frame for my son, I asked Peter to send 2 frames together next week.

CS-286 2015 Newest disc cyclocross carbon frame for 135mm QR/142*12mm axle - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd

Really nice dealing with him, always, the 29er wheels I got from him last year still work out great.

I am considering to get 700C disc CX wheels from Peter as well, not decided, Peter says they can assemble 38mm wheels with Novatec D771/D772 hubs thru axles option for me.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks JCB. Those are 700 x 32 Kenda Slant sixes, running them tubeless. I wanted something with a little tread, but could be run off road if necessary. I definitely wanted a tubeless tire, I was so tired of replacing tubes in my old road bike.

Just took it out for a 22 miler the other day. Rides great, and I'm really happy with my setup. I just switched to a 1x10 on my mountain bike and am considering doing that with this bike also. I have a compact crank with a 50-34 on the front, 11-32 wifli on the rear. I rarely ride in the big gear in front, even on the road.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey Bikrider, what did those 29er carbon wheels cost you? Considering them for my mtb bike.

Also, what are you being quoted for the carbon 700 cc disc wheels?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Have you folks seen this? 
Skip down past the squishy cushy stuff to the new edition of the Pivot Vault. 
I can see plenty of areas that are different than our MBs but I also see a handful of similarities. Mostly the rear seat stay wishbone. 
PC15: Pivot Unveils All New Mach 429 Trail, Updates Vault Gravel/Cross Machine

I spend many after work rides on the MB trying to go fast on singletrack and failing. Plenty of fun. 
Then I ride the same stuff on my mountain bikes. Makes the fat tires seem like a big eraser that just covers up all my crap lines. 
The skinny MB tires are the yellow highlighter showing all the mistakes!
Still love that bike. 
-JCB


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

$2295 for a frameset - Thankfully dissimilar!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

For a company that makes incredibly ugly mountain bikes (aside from LES/LES FAT), they sure think highly of their very heavy CX bikes.


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## Swerny (Apr 1, 2004)

Does anyone have any experience with the ICAN Cyclocross bikes?

AC059:

2015 AC059 complete cyclocross bike with Shiman 6800 Disc - Shenzhen ICAN Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

*First ride on the new RALSTON*

First ride on the new RALSTON CX bike.

I could not be happier with the frame and the fit. We got caught in a hail storm and the single track became very muddy. The tire clearance on the RALSTON was much better than the clearance on the Foundry that I was with.

Looking forward to racing.


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Swerny said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the ICAN Cyclocross bikes?
> 
> AC059:
> 
> 2015 AC059 complete cyclocross bike with Shiman 6800 Disc - Shenzhen ICAN Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.


I wonder why many of the frames both mountain and cross use the slightly back curved fork. I think the straight fork just looks better.


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## Bikrider (Mar 21, 2014)

Gluddy said:


> Hey Bikrider, what did those 29er carbon wheels cost you? Considering them for my mtb bike.
> 
> Also, what are you being quoted for the carbon 700 cc disc wheels?


Hi Gluddy, I bought the 29er wheels last year 585 USD/pair 30mm width, the price goes down now, some guys buy their 27mm width 29er hookless wheels at 550 USD/pair 32/32H version.

Peter offered me 495 USD/pair for the 38mm depth 25mm width 700C disc wheels 28/28H version.
D771/D772 hubs 15/142 TA 
Sapim CX-Delta spokes (they say same weight as CX-Ray)
Sapim nipples
38mm clincher rims 25mm width

I think it is quite fair deal, but I am not able to afford this , just ordered 26er frame and CS-286 frame from Peter, I need to save some money to order the wheels.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks Bikrider. Those prices are pretty good, although the wife would disown me if I ordered another set of wheels. I will consider the 700 cc disc road wheels for a future gift for myself.


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

To report back in after a few hundred miles on the MC-286, I have to say that all is well. No apparent flaws, creaks or concerns. After the build up, I haven't had to make an adjustment. Most of my riding as been road, but some of the roads might be the equivalent of a smooth gravel path. 

Completed a little over a century on Sat. and bike was very comfortable over the entirety. As, or more forgiving than my steel framed bike - just more solid feeling and very little flex when your on the pedals. 1x10 gearing seems to be enough range for the riding I'm doing (42T in front and 11x36 cassette). If I were to be off road a little more, I'd drop the front ring down to the min. Glad I went with the 56cm size. I'm running an All Mountain wheel set right now. Hope to lighten that package up over this winter (At ~20lbs now). 

Another happy MC-286 customer.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Spent 5 hours on the Miracle recently. 
No issues. I've seemingly excercised all the BB demons. Not even creaks. 
And- that riding position is getting more comfy. I lowered the stem one spacer. 

And on SS? Man. What a great little ripper.


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## Dr.Galactus (Apr 14, 2012)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Spent 5 hours on the Miracle recently.
> No issues.


:skep: Where's the real JCB!?

Glad to see you've got all the niggles fixed


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I want to know- where's the real fat biker?
Here, in the U.S. I may just be a fat toothless biker, with an incredibly small ding-dong ... - Picture

(I'm not clever enough to find a way to best insert that link)


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm 5'7" and usually ride a medium mountain bike. I have a Cannondale supersix in size 52 that fits me just right. If I pick up a Miracle Bikes cross frame/fork, is 52 still the right size to get you think?


Also, anyone found a way to build these up with a good groupset for drop bars that is a 2x11 with wide ranging cassette that goes either 11-36 or preferably 11-42 with hydro disc brakes? I can't find any 2x11 cross groupsets that will allow the use of this wide of a cassette. I already have an extra x01 11-42 cassette laying around if I could just use that with it I'd be a happy camper.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

Couloirman said:


> I'm 5'7" and usually ride a medium mountain bike. I have a Cannondale supersix in size 52 that fits me just right. If I pick up a Miracle Bikes cross frame/fork, is 52 still the right size to get you think?


I don't know the answer, but I would say look at the geometry charts and pick the size that most closely matches the top tube length of your current frame. Also, expect to use 1-2 cm more spacers under the stem than your reference bike (or use a higher stem angle). That seems to be a theme with almost every picture posted on this thread.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Order placed-- super stoked! Went with BSA bottom bracket even though I've never had issues with bb30. Now gotta find a lead for a good deal on SRAM force 1 group set with hydro brakes. Any ideas?


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

InVeloVeritas said:


> Don't forget if you're planning to run current 11spd that you have a 'road 11 speed ' freehub body. Mountain 11 speed is either XD or new XTR, neither of which will take a road cassette.
> Selection of road disc hubs is a little limited, even more so if you want thru axle. Bontrager, Easton, and DT come to mind with options.


I don't think that's true if you're going 1x11. This one takes xd driver and is advertised to work with force cx1 drivetrain: https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/sram-xg-1180-mini-cluster-cassette

I might even try to get away with running my X01 cranks and cassette on the Force 1 drivetrain. they seem very similar


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

I'm ordering through peter who used to work at xmiplay but now has started his own thing. Looks similar to the miracle bike (maybe the same, who knows). The last chinese mountain bike I bought, that IP-256 super light one could only be used with a 34 tooth ring max with a 1x setup or it would grind on the chainstay. 

Anyone having chain ring clearance issues with a 1x setup on this frame? With an SRAM Force 1 setup I hope to use everything from 36 tooth to 44 tooth chainring as long as it fits


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## SufferFest (Mar 10, 2015)

Couloirman said:


> I'm ordering through peter who used to work at xmiplay but now has started his own thing. Looks similar to the miracle bike (maybe the same, who knows). The last chinese mountain bike I bought, that IP-256 super light one could only be used with a 34 tooth ring max with a 1x setup or it would grind on the chainstay.
> 
> Anyone having chain ring clearance issues with a 1x setup on this frame? With an SRAM Force 1 setup I hope to use everything from 36 tooth to 44 tooth chainring as long as it fits


I'm running 1x10 with a 42T & sram crank. No interference issues through 11-36t shift range.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Awesome thanks man!


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Couloirman said:


> I'm ordering through peter who used to work at xmiplay but now has started his own thing. Looks similar to the miracle bike (maybe the same, who knows). The last chinese mountain bike I bought, that IP-256 super light one could only be used with a 34 tooth ring max with a 1x setup or it would grind on the chainstay.
> 
> Anyone having chain ring clearance issues with a 1x setup on this frame? With an SRAM Force 1 setup I hope to use everything from 36 tooth to 44 tooth chainring as long as it fits


I run a Force CX1 setup with a 44t ring, no problems.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

w0lla said:


> I run a Force CX1 setup with a 44t ring, no problems.











Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

w0lla said:


> View attachment 1003413
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk


I think the least of your problems is chainring clearance w0lla.

Please tell me that's not Spokey Dokey's I see !

WTF ???? :yikes: :eekster: :crazy: :nono:

Is it still 1980 in your part of the world ?

PMSL

Made my week buddy.

Rock on 

Fat Biker


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

hah! got them as a present was forced to put them on


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

w0lla said:


> hah! got them as a present was forced to put them on


A likely story 

Come on now we're all friends here just admit it n come clean.

You CHOSE them really didn't ya 

Best "upgrade" I seen on a bike in ANY forums in a loooong time.

:cornut:

Fat Biker


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks


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## BridlepathsForever (Jul 21, 2015)

Newb to this forum. Read the whole thread and still a bit confused as to the "142mm thru axle" as this is bigger than the current 135 mm axles standards. How does this pan out in practice?

As an example, which rear hub would you choose from this page:
Hubs-CX


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## BridlepathsForever (Jul 21, 2015)

double post deleted


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## BridlepathsForever (Jul 21, 2015)

How are you guys getting on with the 53 mm bottom bracket drop?

I'm looking for an affordable carbon frame to make a gravel friendly alternative to my road bike. (As opposed to making a bike for proper CX duties.)
This frame could be perfect, except for my small doubt as to whether the high BB will be too noticeable in terms of handling.


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## mrwolf (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks for all the great info I've been following this thread for a while and just ordered my frame.

What thru axle cx wheels are you guys using?


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## mrwolf (Jul 31, 2015)

142 is the width of the hub. yes its bigger than 135. The frame has 3.5mm notch on either side to locate the wheel while you thread the axle through

here is some extra info:

12 mm x 142 mm Axle Standard Explained - Pinkbike


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

I'm a fan of the DT R23/R24. Centerlock, tubeless, and pretty good value.


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

Using a grail+dt350 combo, smoooth

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk


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## w0lla (Apr 18, 2008)

You guys noticed similar "anomalies" on the fram finish as the one shown above.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

For me, on some single track, the BB drop is NOT an issue. 
I'm even using an eccentric BB set in the lower position. So the BB is even lower. 

GF and I did 10 hours/120 miles of dirt/pave a few days ago. I was wishing for a longer frame, but glad for the clearance on stand over.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Still happy w/ this bike. 
The memories of bike packing the Colorado Trail are still too fresh in my head to do any large loops on the mountain bikes so I'm finally able to link up some of the great stuff I built this bike for. 

GF and I did 120 miles of dirt/pave a few days ago. About 10 hours of wheels turning time. 
Some of the miles were perfect for this bike. Easy rolling. 
For some of the miles this SS road-ish bike was, perhaps, the wrong tool for the job. 
Stand up and haul on the bars for a few stinger ups and the bike feels great. 
Do a climb that lasts more than an hour and my frail little self begins to wilt and a SS CX bike is as clever as someone on a 26" fat bike claiming they don't like suspension. 
Too much time standing and sawing at the bars had me crafting solutions. 

Did the Miracle flinch? Nope. 
Did Chicken Bones? 
Yep. You could have heard me crack from space. 
Almost a week later and I might be re-hydrated to where I was pre-ride. 

So now- it's a dingle speed. 
Know the type? It uses two front rings, and two rear. Each separated by the same 3 tooth count. (in this case a 32/20 for the long ups, and a 35/17 for the easier stuff)
No derailleurs, no tensioners. Just move the chain onto the smaller front ring, then move it onto the larger rear. Voila! An uphill gear and one for other stuff too. 

Why? Why am I so adamant to avoid gears on this bike? 
Vanity. 
During this transition I frog-modified a rear der onto the frame to make it a 1x9. Even managed to cram an XTR rear shifter onto the bars. 
(Show of hands please- How many of you knew that a road bar is ever so slightly larger than a mountain bar? well I'm glad you knew that but this is not a contest)

Nope. 
The der had to go. 

Anyone else still glad they made the purchase? 

-JCB


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

Stoked to build this up this week. Anyone know what the difference between Chris King Road and Mountain bottom brackets are, and which fits this frame? Putting Force CX1 cranks on here, and all I am missing is the BB but I can't figure out which to order. Either going Chris King or Enduro XD15 ceramic on the BB but both say road and mtn versions and can't figure which goes on this bike


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

In the slim chance that I can help here....
The bottom bracket shell of the frame isn't mountain or road. 
The cranks are. 

So- if you're using a mountain crank on the Miracle- get the King mountain BB. 
And likewise if you're running a road crank.
The real difference is the crank spindle length. 

Somebody will know the exact specs but- road cranks are more narrow than mountain. 

And for what it's worth, the King BB is really worth it (to me anyway). 
I'm using one on the SS, have been since 2011. It's all scuffed and battered, faded (since King can't anodize worth a crap) and running absolutely perfectly. 
I use their little grease injector several times a season. It's pretty good but seems to occasionally blow the rubber o-ring out if I inject the grease too fast. 

On the bikes w/o a King BB- I press in a new bearings at least once a season. 
So.. blah blah blah. 
Get the King in the size that works w/ your cranks. 
Or I guess more accurately- get the King BB and then get the correct adapter for it. 

-JCB


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Anyone? 
Can anyone tell me for certain? 
Is this our Miracle rebranded? 
It's 3:30 am and I need sleep but it sure seems to be the same. 
Vitus


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

It sure looks like the same frame to me. There's a product page up on their retail web site with geometry charts and all. I haven't checked to see whether the dimensions all match, but the frame sizes being offered definitely match.

The claimed weight is 2 pounds less than my bike, but they are probably using lighter wheels, and the hydraulic brakes and 1x drivetrain probably save some as well.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

http://www.planetx.co.uk/c/q/bikes/cyclocross-bikes/viner-super-prestige

Also very close match to this frame. Geo numbers are almost spot ETT, headtube. Etc.


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## Toni.T (Mar 2, 2010)

Hello 

I just get my cx frameset from Asiancycle express. It looks very good, but then I noticed that I might have some problem. Frameset come with 142x12 rear thruaxle dropout and 15x100 front thruaxle fork. The problem is that in the frame or fork does not have thread where I can put thruaxles. So does Asiancycleexpress forget something or do I need some parts?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nope. 
There seems to be no mistake. 
My frame looks the same. 
Somewhere in this overly long thread there's a bit about the axles. 
Each uses a threaded nut on it's end. I think the DT 12mm thru will work on the rear of your frame.
As far as I've seen, there's only one that will work on the front. It's the version Miracle sells. 
So you'll need to contact your seller and get the correct set up. If I was in your shoes, I'd order both F and R. They are super cheap.


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## Toni.T (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanks for your reply!

This is photo from another side of fork.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep Toni- 
That completely makes sense. 
The fork on my Miracle has that same insert. The QR lever will go on the R side of the bike, and that hollow area is where the axle bolt snugs in.


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## Toni.T (Mar 2, 2010)

OEM Alloy bicycle hub Thru Axle front 100*15mm rear 142*12mm for thru axle skewer mtb frame Carbon-in Bicycle Hubs from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

Thanks a lot!

Do you think that these are correct setup?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

They look close but I can't say for sure. 
We went thru a long headache of these damned things. Originally Miracle sent a handful of us the incorrect F axles. Not sure what they fit, but it wasn't the Miracles. 
The rear is likely pretty much able to fit w/ several different 142 set ups. 
The front was the issue. Evidently it needs to be just the right width, and the "nut" of the axle it has to fit in the fork's recess. 
I'd contact the seller and see which they suggest. 
If it's needed- I can measure the axles that I have. I suppose the un-threaded width would be key. 

Check page 16 or so of this thread for some shots I took of the right and wrong F axles. 

-JCB


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## foresterxt (Oct 20, 2008)

It's been a few months in the making, but I finally got her built up last night. It took Jenny a few months to get me a 56cm frame and about 8-weeks back and forth on the paint (trying to figure out what colors they actually had available wasn't easy). 

My primary use is CX racing (lots around here in Minneapolis) I was unsure on how it was going to come together so if it was a turd, it was going to be relegated to my pit bike. It's a mix of ebay parts I got on the cheap and some Chinese tubular wheels I had built up on the cheap as well. I would say only have about $1500 into her.

I must say, I'm super stoked on how it turned out! All up weight with my Ti eggbeater pedals is 15lbs 14oz, which for a thru axle disc bike exceeds my expectations. I was shooting for under 17lbs. I need to get the tires glued on and put her thru it's paces on the local Wednesday night CX races. I'll report back.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Jesus Dave. 
Really? 
You aren't sitting on any pit bikes that you'd like to get rid of? 
Like some crap wagon 17lb tank needing a home? 

That bike is gorgeous. Really. 
Everytime I see someone's Miracle that has such perfect paint- I realize how little consideration I gave the paint on mine. 
Man. 

Written with envy, 
-JCB


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Minor Update*

As I've written- Deda Tape is crap. 
And now.... well, I will throw the Lizard Skins stuff out too! Slippery when wet, and too shiny.

So, instead I'm now using some Fizik Performance microfiber stuff I found on close out at a shop. 
AND ITS FANTASTIC! It's almost more fabric than cork or anything else. 
3mm thick and great.

It's fall everywhere. The time that I ride a bike like this the most. 
My recent 2 cents- not much give in that fork eh? Too straight. 
After about 5-6 hours I start to feel it.

But I'm still loving it.

You should be riding, not reading. 
-JCB

I have a great shot w/ some leaves and such but I think it's too big, it won't upload.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Hey! That's my bike. 
But w/ better parts. And cleaner paint. 
Clearly the TA is different on both ends. The rear plates don't appear to be swapable. The F axle enters from the R side of the bike so it's different too. 
IB15: Basso Cuts the Mud & Wind with Full Thru-Axle Fast Cross Disc & Konos TT/Tri Machine; Plus New Price Point Venta

I sure would like to know the real story behind these open molds. 
I'm betting Miracle doesn't make them either. But who does? If we are now able to scoop the big brands w/ such a frame, who do we send $$ to in order to scoop Miracle too? 
How do we go Factory direct?


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

After 6 week of racing here in Colorado I am super happy with the bike! Here is shot of her in action


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

c1gary- We were promised a photo!


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

I can not upload the photo from my phone. I will have to do once I get to my computer this weekend.


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## nickcube (Jul 25, 2012)

Looking at getting one of the miracle frames(FM286), I'm just wondering if I should go for BB30 or bsa, I'm leaning towards bb30, but what are people's experience with creaking? Also, what's the deal with the axels, do they come with them or do you have to buy your own? Cheers


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm still glad I went BSA- just for the option to use old parts. 
And of all the creaky that I've read about- BB30 seems to be worse than PF30 or other options. 
I'm the guy whose BSA wasn't glued in so now it's a BB30 anyway but since I'm using it with an eccentric BB as a single speed- it's fine. 

Order axles with it. 
Their F axle is the only one that works with their fork. As far as we've seen. 
And the R axle is so cheap- just order that too!

-JCB


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## nickcube (Jul 25, 2012)

Good to hear, what's the internal cable routing like for the frame? fairly easy to route?


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't like the way these rear drop-outs are only held on with those 2 little screws. I'm used to seeing the thru axle captured by the frame itself. As it is, those 2 screws on each side are the only thing keeping your wheel attached to the frame. Does that concern anyone else?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Many of these questions have already been answered in this long thread, but I can understand why you may have skipped the bulk of it. 

The internal route isn't all that great but works fine. I only routed hydro brake housing thru it so had to futz a bit. My frame wasn't pre-threaded. Some have been. 

I was also concerned w/ the two little screws holding the rear drops in. I've had ZERO issue w/ it (perhaps 1200 miles so far, mostly dirt) but more importantly, another rider has the same set up on his mountain frame from Miracle. 
Also -ZERO issues. 

Of the things about this frame I don't like (riding position, straight fork w/ no compliance), the rear drops are not a concern anymore. 

-JCB


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## noufa777 (Sep 9, 2012)

Hello, thank you for very good thread you write here...very interesting. And make me consider this frame so much. From the post here I learn there are 2 provider thru axle frames; CS-286 2015 Newest disc cyclocross carbon frame for 135mm QR/142*12mm axle - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd and 2015 New cyclocross bike thru axle 142mm-Carbon bike frame,Carbon bike parts,Carbon bicycle frame,Carbon road frame,Carbon MTB frame Questions: are they actually the same frame with different sales point? (Because when I checked group they are same) Anyone has experience with both of companies?


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## bdcheung (Jan 6, 2009)

noufa777 said:


> Hello, thank you for very good thread you write here...very interesting. And make me consider this frame so much. From the post here I learn there are 2 provider thru axle frames; CS-286 2015 Newest disc cyclocross carbon frame for 135mm QR/142*12mm axle - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd and 2015 New cyclocross bike thru axle 142mm-Carbon bike frame,Carbon bike parts,Carbon bicycle frame,Carbon road frame,Carbon MTB frame Questions: are they actually the same frame with different sales point? (Because when I checked group they are same) Anyone has experience with both of companies?


They look identical.


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## Couloirman (Sep 17, 2010)

When mounting my front wheel it is as if the front fork is maybe 5 mm too wide for the hub and I can easily squeeze the fork to flex it to fit and it compresses easily with the through axle hub, but is this normal? None of my other bikes ever did this so it had me concerned, but I just did 150 miles on it yesterday on it's maiden voyage and it held up just fine and I didn't notice any flex while riding.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I'd say that 5mm too wide is 5 reasons that something is wrong. 
Either the hub is too narrow, or the fork is too wide. Either way- until I understood it, I wouldn't use it. But that's me. 

If possible, please meaure the inner width at the axle of your fork. A 15mm thru axle fork should be 100mm wide. 
I'd say my Miracle fork is perhaps a half millimeter too narrow. Maybe. 
Thin enough that it can hold a F wheel in place w/o the axle, but barely. It squeezes it just enough. 
Or stuff your cross wheel in a mountain fork. Should fit well enough for this test. 

What hub are you using?

Please measure that and I'll compare it to mine when I can. 
If you have any other F wheels that are 15mm TA, you might put them in the fork just to see how they fit. Even if you have to let all the air out of a mountain tire's wheel it'd be a test to see if your hub is too narrow, or the fork is too wide. 

I'm the clown that usually uses gear way past when it should be retired, but if I were in your shoes- I'd be too scared of that fork to pedal it. 
If it's made incorrectly, who knows what else is wrong w/ it. 

It should pop out of a mold at the correct width. If that's wrong- I doubt it's their fork mold. More likely something else is amiss. 

Let me know your width, and we'll go from there. 

-JCB


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## PeterXu (Mar 12, 2015)

What do you think about these wheels ?

Look at attached pictures of road/CX disc tubeless wheels, front 38mm-25mm, rear 50mm-25mm

Hubs: DT 240s custom road/CX disc hubs
Spokes: sapim CX-Ray
Nipples: Sapim self-securing nipples
Rims: Carbon Speed 700C clincher tubeless compatible rims TM38C-25mm, TM50C-25mm


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Umm.....
Light and stiff spokes. 
One of the most perfect hubs out there- really DT 240s are the good stuff. To me, they are much better than King (unless you need ano bling)
Don't know anything about the rims. 

Am pretty sure that would be a wonderful wheel set.


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## InVeloVeritas (May 12, 2006)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Umm.....
> Light and stiff spokes.
> One of the most perfect hubs out there- really DT 240s are the good stuff. To me, they are much better than King (unless you need ano bling)
> Don't know anything about the rims.
> ...


Agreed - that wheelset is pretty much optimal. I'm using 38mm deep front/rear with the same hubs (albeit 350s because I'm cheap) - they've been perfect all season with both road tubeless and cross. Just make sure you can get some tubeless valve extenders for that 50mm.


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## c1gary (Jul 22, 2008)

*Here are the promised photos ...*



Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> c1gary- We were promised a photo!


Here they are...


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Lose that beard and you could gain upwards of 10 seconds when riding in your local park! 

(If that sounds like I'm a shade unhinged, I am. Stoopid living at 9000 feet in the Rockies means a nice sunny day like that w/ no full legs/arms is way behind us now)

I like the blue tape. 

Along these lines- Can anyone point to a failure of these frames in any way? 
Have we seen any cracks yet? Each time I shudder thru a stack of breaking bumps on singletrack I wonder about that fork. Even though I have no reason to!


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm not finding these frames in stock anywhere online, anyone have a tip where I can pick one up? Checked asian cycle and xm carbon speed, neither have them.


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## bdcheung (Jan 6, 2009)

rusty904 said:


> I'm not finding these frames in stock anywhere online, anyone have a tip where I can pick one up? Checked asian cycle and xm carbon speed, neither have them.


They are almost always available on Aliexpress.

Here's one example: 2015 NEWEST Thru Axle Carbon Cyclocross Bike Frameset 142mm Rear Spacing Fork 15*100mm Axle 160mm Rotor Disc Brake 50cm UD Matte-in Bicycle Frame from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Want to buy my frame/fork/headset/axles? 
New last spring. Ridden though not as much as it should have been! 
I know- blaspheme. 
I think I'm going to try these 29er+ shinanigans w/ some of the Miracle's parts. 
Once it starts snowing here, my brain starts churning on new projects. 
This video keeps haunting my brain. Something about grassy roads and drop bars. 





-JCB


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> Want to buy my frame/fork/headset/axles?
> New last spring. Ridden though not as much as it should have been!
> I know- blaspheme.
> I think I'm going to try these 29er+ shinanigans w/ some of the Miracle's parts.
> ...


PM Sent


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I know- blaspheme.
> 
> I think I'm going to try these 29er+ shinanigans w/ some of the Miracle's parts.
> 
> ...


Careful JCB it's the top of a very slippy slope going 29er +

Next thing you know you'll be getting into full fat. 

Keep watching Coastkid videos and you'll be there in no time  LOL and you could do a lot worse than watch his back catalogue. Excellent videographer.

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Daaaannnnggg.... You know how to kick a guy Fat. 
Phat Bikes.... Damned things are the stand up paddle boards of winter. 
One day people will say "I used to have a lower back tattoo...." Someone else will say "Hell, I had a SUPaddleboard!"
I just hope I can't trump them all by saying- "You folks don't know what it's like- I used to have a fat bike."

And yet the allure of them continues to pull at me. Then I see one go by and think "Please god- don't let me be that clown...." 

A friend of mine likes making frames. He's made af ew fat bikes. 
We would take them out at night and ride down the ski slopes here in Colorado. They weren't too bad, but not compelling enough. Not yet at least. 

I only ride bikes for fun and (maybe I'm just a grump- wait No, I am definitly a grump) and the world of fat just isn't that fun to me. Fun yes, not fun enough. 
Not fun enough to add one more bike to store and care for. Not fun enough to watch new standards make my new bike look old one season later. 
Maybe when tire prices come down (and I get them cheap already) and axle/BB standards calm the hell down. Maybe. 
That Ice Cream Truck had my attention for about w week. 

As it is, there are ample roads that are groomed here (though I call it plowed) and my town bikes are studded so I'm going for a ride. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Well hook line and sinker for me. 
Took the plunge and built an alloy "cross" / "urban" bike. 
It's perfectly fine BTW. 
But felt I needed a carbon fat bike to add to the stable. (already got an alloy On-One Fatty, XT equipped and reverb, 30+lbs) 
The carbon currently has MT8's (yeah I know, well see how the hold up) Next SL's, carbon hoops etc. Not quite finished yet but sat around 20.5lbs (if only I could get some Juggernaut Pro's  it would be sub 20lb ) 

Come to the fat side JCB.. . . . . . . . . . 

we have cakes  


Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Fat-
My first instinct was to point out the way that some vegetarians will work so hard to make a veggie meal that's like a carnivore's meal. 
"Great Lasagna!" (yea, can you believe it's all veggie) 
Or tofu burgers, hot dogs, and whatever else. 

Like how Gary Fisher tried so hard to make (well, to market as such) their early 29ers feel like a 26" wheel. 
I get it, we want all the good and none of the bad. Not sure if it's human or American nature, but it's sure my way. I want a bike that rolls like a 29er yet is playful like a smaller wheel. 

And if I had some bloated rubber shod dirge (wait, is a dirge a boat? Or a dreary Irish song? What is it they put trash on? Oh- a barge.) anyway, If I had a fat bike I too would want to clip all it's fat bad wings, and keep only the good stuff. 

And man am I a sucker for trick brakes. Good luck w/ the MT8s.
They are one of those bits that I want to work. Sure Shimano carries the lionshare of the brake markey lately but, that'll change and it's about time Margura had some of the lime light. 
What is your fat crabon frame? 

And I heard this said- Cake is the steak of dessert. And I love me some steak. 
Fat- I don't know where you live but if- if I ever get to pedal fat near you, I'd like to see what there is to learn. 

As it is, I ride some (though never enough) w/ a certain fat rider of the LaceMine29 variety. 
When he talks, I listen. Well, more accuratly- I watch what he's riding and try to learn. 
Yet I just can't seem to embrace the Phatness of his world. Not yet. Though he predicts I'll be on something wide before long. He also says that anything less than about a 2.5 is dead to him. Or mostly dead. 

It's late. It's snowing. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

JCB

The frame is one of the many Chinese iterations of the FM190 (19") . The geo's not that great (think loooong chainstays - not good for the super steep technical climbs I like to do but hey ) I chose it so I could fit decent size rubber in there for winter and some nice 29+ rubber for summer. Yet I needed clearance at the stays (for either option) to cope with the year round mud over here in the UK.

Spring, summer, autumn (fall - :winker or winter. The seasons just vary the temperature of the rain and the amount. So mud tends to range from thick and sticky to a gloopy paint consistency.

I am of the float on top of the mud not cut through it school of thought. So with that in mind. Fatties fit fine  . Plus they fit my prefered riding pace these days too (slow - LOL  )

I've not got to ride the bike yet but the brakes don't feel too great in testing. The levers come far too close to the bars when trying for full power for my taste. But we'll see in real world testing. If they don't work out I'll just get some XTR's or maybe try the new Guides, who knows ?

Are you gonna try one of the new carbon asymmetrically stayed copies of the Stache for your +bike experiment ? I think one of those with some drops on would be awesome, especially with the variable stay length.

The thing is with fat you either get it or you don't. That's not to slight anyone who doesn't though. If it clicks for you great if it doesn't well ride something that does. One aspect of fat that I think does affect peoples opinion is wheel weight. You need to get a ride on a lightweight wheel setup of your chosen chariot before making any kind of decision IMHO. But then that can be said about any discipline of cycling really. Even cyclocross LOL.

Back to the regular scheduled programming folks.

Chinese carbon cyclocross. Are there any newer frame designs floating around yet other than the one (possibly two) discussed in this thread ?

I wouldn't mind finding the Chinese raw version of this beauty

















Rear clearance looks to be quite good for some fat rubber too.

















It's an On-One / Planet X Bish Bash Bosh (Here). Beautiful machine, just a little garish and expensive (even for just the frameset) for my tastes  .

Fat Biker


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

c1Gary - Nice meeting you yesterday at the bowl of death! What a mudfest. Thanks for letting me take a quick look at your bike. I'm still a little concerned about tire clearance, although your bike looked fine with CX tires and all the mud we had. I would like to run at least 38mm tires for some gravel grinding, etc. and am concerned about the rear clearance, any help? Also, it looks like the rear dropout has a small hole that could be used as a set bolt for the rear 142x12 nut. Any idea if this is a possibility?
Thanks again and good luck for the rest of your CX season!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Andy-
I've run Nano 40c tire's on mine. No issues really but stepped the rear down in width a bit to a 38.
The 40s worked but I was afraid a bent rim or extra mud would screw up the frame and a ride. 

Yep-stuff a bolt in that dropout and your rear axle nut will stay out. It's how I'm running mine. 

-JCB


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## mogghiaman (Nov 24, 2015)

foresterxt said:


> It's been a few months in the making, but I finally got her built up last night. It took Jenny a few months to get me a 56cm frame and about 8-weeks back and forth on the paint (trying to figure out what colors they actually had available wasn't easy).
> 
> My primary use is CX racing (lots around here in Minneapolis) I was unsure on how it was going to come together so if it was a turd, it was going to be relegated to my pit bike. It's a mix of ebay parts I got on the cheap and some Chinese tubular wheels I had built up on the cheap as well. I would say only have about $1500 into her.
> 
> ...


This bike is really beautiful, where does the frame? that code has? thank you


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Fat Biker said:


> JCB
> 
> The frame is one of the many Chinese iterations of the FM190 (19") . The geo's not that great (think loooong chainstays - not good for the super steep technical climbs I like to do but hey ) I chose it so I could fit decent size rubber in there for winter and some nice 29+ rubber for summer. Yet I needed clearance at the stays (for either option) to cope with the year round mud over here in the UK.
> 
> ...


You got me looking at the Planet-X site, I really like the look at some of the Tomac bikes on there but I wonder why they sell the Planet-X Frames for so much more? I'm looking for an unbranded version of this guy. Tomac Montezuma Carbon Adventure / Gravel Road Frameset | Planet X

Basically I want a carbon frame with maximum tire clearance yet without long chainstays (430mm or less preferably). They are two contradictory ideas I know but does anyone have any other suggestions?


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I'm with Rusty on "wants". It sounds contradictory like he says, but I race Cyclocross, so I want short chainstays and mid 60mm BB drop. I would also like clearance for Nano 40c or Knard 41c. I also need a higher stack than average due to a back fusion. I would also like thru axles front and rear. I am asking too much, but I got a right to dream, right? So either an aggressive gravel grinder or relaxed cx racer(?).


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Andy13 said:


> I'm with Rusty on "wants". It sounds contradictory like he says, but I race Cyclocross, so I want short chainstays and mid 60mm BB drop. I would also like clearance for Nano 40c or Knard 41c. I also need a higher stack than average due to a back fusion. I would also like thru axles front and rear. I am asking too much, but I got a right to dream, right? So either an aggressive gravel grinder or relaxed cx racer(?).


So I like this one from Planet-X as a decent compromise. Too expensive for what it is but I suppose you could get some decent support plus the paint job is pretty sweet IMO. https://www.planet-x-usa.com/i/q/FRTOMO/tomac-montezuma-carbon-adventure---gravel-road-frameset

Even weirder they sell a "Viner" Branded version of what appears to be the same frame for $570 more??? They also sell Viner and Tomac branded versions of what appears to be the frame everyone on this thread is using. Biggest geo differences I'm seeing between the two is the gravel variant has a lower bb (55 vs 70 drop), longer TT lengths, 5mm longer chainstays, and taller headtubes.

Also found this on Ican's site. I personally think it's a bit of an uglier frame but the geometry numbers look ok and it's supposed to clear a 40c tire. Haven't asked about pricing yet. 
AC129 WIDE Disc brake frame Cyclocross 2015 - Shenzhen ICAN Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.

Really want to find an unbranded version of the "Montezuma" frame. I do like the paint but I don't want to pay a huge markup for a branded frame ordered out of a catalog.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

The Montezuma does look interesting, however, it is the first frameset I've seen w/ a 12X100 Thru-Axle fork. I emailed them and they confirmed it is 12mm not 15mm. I agree that it is probably a $500 frameset being sold at 40% off at $850.


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Andy13 said:


> The Montezuma does look interesting, however, it is the first frameset I've seen w/ a 12X100 Thru-Axle fork. I emailed them and they confirmed it is 12mm not 15mm. I agree that it is probably a $500 frameset being sold at 40% off at $850.


Weird! I didn't even notice that! I kind of assumed it was the same 15x100 axle they put on the "Mesa Verde" frame. I guess I could shim down a 15x100 hub to fit, otherwise I don't know where you'd get one to fit. I like the patriotic paint on that bike but it seems a little ironic on a Chinese catalog frame sold by a UK based company.

Ican quoted me $500 plus $80 shipping on their AC129 frame. Wish it had thru axles and wasn't so ugly!


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

foresterxt said:


> It's been a few months in the making, but I finally got her built up last night. It took Jenny a few months to get me a 56cm frame and about 8-weeks back and forth on the paint (trying to figure out what colors they actually had available wasn't easy).
> 
> My primary use is CX racing (lots around here in Minneapolis) I was unsure on how it was going to come together so if it was a turd, it was going to be relegated to my pit bike. It's a mix of ebay parts I got on the cheap and some Chinese tubular wheels I had built up on the cheap as well. I would say only have about $1500 into her.
> 
> ...


could you do a quick parts list of what you used and the source of the wheelset. If the tubulars were inexpensive enough I would be tempted. thanks


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

PeterXu said:


> What do you think about these wheels ?
> 
> Look at attached pictures of road/CX disc tubeless wheels, front 38mm-25mm, rear 50mm-25mm
> 
> ...


with 240s and 28 spoke cxrays I thought they might be a little lighter. Obviously the deep rims add the weight. Is it worth it? I don't imagine much aero advantage on a cross bike? I suppose the V shape rim sheds mud better. and granted the wheels are stiff but are they that much different than lets say a 30mm deep rim. So I look at those wheels and yes they will look sexy on my cross rig but are they worth it. Or would a wheelset with 30mm U shaped rim with DT 350 hubs be approximately the same weight, same stiffness but cheaper price point?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

To anyone still thinking about this frameset or fork (Miraclebike):

if you have a front hub with end caps like here on the right:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8X9ucAFfHNtcVpCODdkX21fNV90cl9aZUdmRWVCa3R1Yk1J/view
you're gonna have a problem because the insets on the dropouts are too deep and the hub is effectively too wide for the fork
This end cap is from a Fastace hub, but SRAM X0 has similar ones. I had to had mine ground down on a lathe and the dropouts still need work because there's a little bit of play with the wheel installed.


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## seamusdog (Feb 2, 2016)

longtime reader, first time poster. Wanted to share my experience with Miracle Bikes and the MC286 frame. We ordered 2 matching framesets for my wife for cyclocross. This is our 5th (and 6th) chinese carbon frame but the first from Miracle. Easiest the smoothest transaction so far and Jenny at Miracle was great. Ordered BSA threaded frames, so I just had to wait for those to get in stock. Placed the order in October and they were here the first week of January.

Can't comment on the ride myself and the wife hasn't actually ridden it yet, but the quality appears to be top notch. The paint is just fantastic, especially when it was only $60 to add. We were actually going for a more Trek Boone color light blue, but it came out celeste. I'm sure Miracle has only a limited color palette and this was as close as they had. Not a big deal and I wasn't going to complain for the price. Just had to order some celeste bar tape though to match and haven't received that yet, so no tape on the bars yet.

For the thru axles, I ground down the front nut so it would fit flush in the in the fork and then epoxy'd it into place. So no need to worry about it falling out everytime you take the wheel off.

The build is Shimano Ultegra Di2 with the hydraulic calipers. I had to drill out the cable hole covers so they would fit the hydraulic lines. One set was large enough to fit Di2 or hydraulic lines, but the other was smaller to just fit cables. Not anything that a few minutes with a drill didn't fix. I built the wheels with DT 350 hubs, Cx Rays and Stans Grail rims. I've also got two sets i'm still building with the same hubs but with 38mm carbon tubular rims from aliexpress.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

are you sure you'll be able to position your front axle lever in an acceptable way with a different hub and no way to turn the nut?


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## seamusdog (Feb 2, 2016)

The lever spins independently of the axle once you close it about 2/3's of the way. So you can place it wherever you want once you have the axle screwed in.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

weird
gotta take another look at mine!
by the way, any chance you could find an X0 hub or one with similar end caps to try and put in this fork? I wrote before (in this thread) that there appears to be a compatibility issue


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## seamusdog (Feb 2, 2016)

The only other thru axle hubs I have are HEDs. They fit fine.


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

I love the paint job. I also found the custom paint job on mine to be of good quality. For anyone designing a custom paint job, I believe Miracle Bikes uses YS paints. I don't remember MB mentioning it anywhere on their web site. I had bought a previous frame through velobuild.com, which did say on their web site that they used YS paints, so I assumed Miracle Bikes was likely using the same suppliers. I specified YS paint numbers in the graphics I sent to them, and the finished frame had exactly the colors I was expecting.

I got the same size frame as the one in your picture for my wife. The exceptionally steep seat tube angle on that small frame has made it a challenge getting the seat as far back as she wants. I'd be curious what your wife thinks of it after she has tested it.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Well done Seamusdog. That's a sharp paint job. 
The revival of this thread has me chomping at the bike bit as per usual in Feb. Also as usual when it won't stop snowing here in Colorado. 

So... W/bikes on the brain, what will the spring rides include? 
Hopefully a pack of the Kokopeli. 

-JCB


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## JD_Cyclocross (Apr 29, 2016)

*New Build - Miracle FM286 56cm Frame*

I have just finished a bike build using the Miracle FM286 cyclo-cross carbon frame. The build was seamless and frame arrived promptly and in perfect condition. My contact was Sally Li at Miracle Bikes.
I am very satisfied with this bike and the frame. I use it for a combination of road and trail/gravel riding and its beautiful to ride.













































Specifications are:
Weight: 8.4kg (18.5lbs)
Frame: FM286 142/12 rare, 100/15 front axle UD matte carbon frame
BB: BSA - fitted with Ultegra SM-BBR60
Crank: Ultegra 6800 mechanical 52-36
Cassette: Ultegra 6800 11-32 cassette
Shifters: Shimano ST-RS685 2x11-speed
Brakes: Shimano BR-RS785 hydraulic disc brakes
Rotors: Shimano Disc Rotor SM-RT99S 160mm Center Lock 
Pedals: Shimano Ultegra Pedals SPD-SL PD-6800
Hubs: White Industries CLD front & Rear (142/12 & 100/15)
Saddle: Fizik Arione R3 Braided Carbon
Rims: Stan's Notube Grail Cyclocross
Tires: Continental Grand Prix 4000S II 28C
Stem: Easton EA70 (+6 degrees)
Bars: Easton EC70 SL3 Carbon Dropbars (42cm)


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

can't understand matching $500 frameset with $500 hub set 
coulda bought carbon rims with that


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice Stealth Build JD. 
Really like all that black. Esp the cranks. 

Now you just need some slight bling near the seat to echo that blue theme. 
I'm sure you've searched seat collars! 

I don't understand what's going on w/ that rack it's on. Can you give me a manufacturer name for that thing? 
Always looking for a new way to store the bikes. 

In the end I made mine into a 9 speed. Will keep the SS to the mountains. 
A SS CX bike is just too narrow a window of usability for my cadence/knees/enjoyment. 
Last fall pedaling up a long mountain pass the insanity of a SS road-ish bike hit me full force. 

Go ride. 
-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> In the end I made mine into a 9 speed. . . .
> Last fall pedaling up a long mountain pass the insanity of a SS road-ish bike hit me full force.
> 
> Go ride.
> -JCB


But how's that BB holding up JCB ?

That's the question on everyone's lips 

Fat Biker


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Well Fat....
Should have gone Praxxis. 
The Wheels Manufacturing was a lame bandaid.

That damned BB area isn't my favorite part of the bike. 
Even bought a PF30 adapter to make it thread in but not permanently. (because it's way cheaper than the Praxxis)

And as you all know (I was the last to learn this) PF30 isn't the same dimension as BB30 so I'm sitting on that piece 
(Anyone want it? Free? Just pay shipping and I'll give you this BB30-BSA adapter)

Frustrated as I am, it's likely I'll just glue the original BSA adapter in and run it.

I ride some bikes and think of where I could take it. Where could it take me? 
I ride the Miracle and keep thinking about what to change on it. 
So now that it's geared I'll try to clear up the last self created BB area issues. 
And I'll think about what stem might make more comfy.

And one day, maybe I'll wonder where it can take me.

On a side note- 
I went fat at the end of this season. For a specific trip. One where I'd tie a pack raft to the bars. 
Ride a bit, float a bit. Smile lots. 
About a week before we were to set off I got pneumonia. So I missed the trip. 
Now have a fatso that I'm using as a 29+. 
And well....
I think that it was pretty un-fun in fat form. Just slow and sluggish but it's not anywhere near the svelte end of the fat spectrum. 
But in 29+? Bordering on amazing and quite capable. 
But the trip looked terrible. So glad I missed it..... 
(all lies) 
Big Wheel Building: Fat 'n happy.

So even a crusty chump like me has learned a bit.

Hope you are excite to pedal as things get nicer here and there. 
Go ride.

-JCB


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## JD_Cyclocross (Apr 29, 2016)

Thanks JCB.

As for the bike stand it's unfortunately called "Yuki Bike Stand Japan", although I suspect, like all things, its made in China.




__ https://www.facebook.com/bicycle.jp/posts/1078802242166812



The stand is great if you need to conserve space. Basically it was the difference between my wife letting me store the bike in our laundry and not. Cost was around THB1,200 (US$35).

Cheers

JD


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## JD_Cyclocross (Apr 29, 2016)

bruto said:


> can't understand matching $500 frameset with $500 hub set
> coulda bought carbon rims with that


Fair comment. I have done about 20 builds with Chinese carbon frames and so I am probably more comfortable with the quality and performance of these frames than other people might be. You need to choose your supplier carefully, but otherwise I have had no issues. Therefore I don't have a problem matching this frame-set with quality parts, but can understand how others might see this as a miss-match.


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## ms6073 (Aug 7, 2012)

JD_Cyclocross said:


> Therefore I don't have a problem matching this frame-set with quality parts


I thought the main reason everyone bought open-mold was so we could afford to splurge on the bling? When I still raced, because I spent ~$500 on open mold frames (DengFu and later Xiamen XPlay), I was able to build disc brake cross bikes with Dura Ace, SRM Hollowgram, and Enve Twenty9 XC carbon tubular disc wheelsets!


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Just curious:
How many people here ride this thru-axle fork from Miraclebike and other merchants?
You know, the only unbranded one that comes up on ebay if you search for carbon cyclocross thru-axle fork, with 410g listed weight and a distinctive cable guide on the side
Are any of you heavy?


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

That's a great question but I don't know if any can really answer it. 
Don't know how many ride em, or how many were sold. 

I do know that I (170lbs) have ridden plenty of singletrack, dirt road, and some pavement on it. 
It's not bad. Not at all. 
I'd like to see a more clean thru axle. The frame is fine, but it'd be good to see one clean TA bolt, maybe tightened by a 6mm or so. No clunky QR lever hanging off the side. 

And I'd like to try a more comfy seating position. 
Look at all the photos on this thread- we all like a stack of spacers under the stem. Most of us anyway. 

-JCBones


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

a hex head axle would be inexpensive to make locally
the one they sell is inconvenient, but it's not the big deal with this fork  Mine snapped yesterday, under me
yay for lightweight carbon 

now I'm out a fork, a carbon rim, a shifter, a cheap saddle
surprisingly, my thin wind jacket and pretty as hell Castelli jersey escaped unscathed


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Whoa. 
SOrry about the bits but hope you're OK. 
Not sure there's many ways a fork can break that allows you to come out of it not mangled. 
Jeeez. Dang Muchachooo. DANG! Brutal. 


Can you be a bit more clear about the event? 
You were using a Miracle fork? RIding along? And it snapped under you? 
Can you tell me more about what happened? 
Any chance at photos of the damage? 
Where did it occur? Cracked that the crown? 

Jesus. 
Next time I'm headed anywhere on this thing, I'll be spooked all to hell. 

I know a machinist and have thought about bending his ear for a TA or two. He did start Manitou back in the day, seems to know a few zillion things about things. 
Just standing in his garage is a treat, even if he doesn't want to help. 
Will try to keep you posted on the TA event. 

Tell me more about your fork crash PLEEEZZZZZ. Please? 

-JCB.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Under braking, of course - it's the most extreme force acting on a disc brake fork

Mileage under 1000km, my weight is 80kg
failure happened when braking from 20-something kph, no idea if it was an instant one or just a culmination of fibers breaking gradually during previous brake applications









Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
I'm ok, though, it really picked a safe place to break I guess 

be spooked, man
Don't know if they changed the layup at some point and made it beefier, but all the ebay and aliexpress listings still show the same weight (410-415g uncut)


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I know a machinist and have thought about bending his ear for a TA or two. He did start Manitou back in the day, seems to know a few zillion things about things.
> Just standing in his garage is a treat, even if he doesn't want to help.
> Will try to keep you posted on the TA event.
> 
> -JCB.


Why not make your own JCB ? I did for the fatty . Held up to their maiden gentle test run yesterday just fine . Rear is 197mm x 12mm front is 135mm x 15mm so a 142mm x 12mm and 100mm x 15mm should in theory be less flexible/stiffer/stronger . Using armchair physics if course (definitely the most accurate without a doubt ) 

Made them out of carbon tubes , 3mm aluminium [sic] rod , titanium shock pivot bushings , titanium bolts and aluminium [sic] washers . Think I saved 120g out of the pair IIRC .

Rear :- 12mm external 8mm internal over a 60mm shorter piece of 8mm external 6mm internal carbon tube . Push a shock bushing in each end (they were 30mm long and 8mm diameter hence 30mm x 2 = 60mm) . Cross drill with a 3mm bit through tube and bushing 25mm from end and pin with alloy rod . All bonded together with some suitable adhesive (I used Liquid Metal epoxy for this first attempt)

Front :- Built up as per rear but an additional 15mm external 12mm internal tube was used to sleeve over to gain strength and the required extra girth .

Bond one bolt in one end of each axle .

Easy peasy . Job done . 

6'2" and 215lb - 225lb of Fat Biker didn't snap 'em in the first 10 miles of gentle dry gravel trail .

I'll keep you posted on their longevity

Oh BTW approx $50 - $70 for everything should see 2 full sets of axles for front and rear .

Fat Biker


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Been talking to a Chinese company Aelbike before this crash cause I didn't like the dropouts on Miraclebikes' fork anyway.
And they have this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8X9ucAFfHNtY2tXLXd5TkxSdkU
+ 450g uncut so slightly beefier than this other fork
+ fender eyelets
+ $95 with an axle (plus shipping which is 50-60 or thereabouts via fedex)

- flat mount (but there're cheap adapters)

If anyone is interested in a T-A CX fork at a less mind-boggling price than TRP/3T/Enve/etc., I can put you in contact with them
The email lady said they've been making this model for 3 years, none came back in pieces yet (as if they'd tell me otherwise 

On the fence myself, waiting for velocarbon to reply to my warranty claim and looking at other options


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

What the hell is going on here?
I stay away from the web for a few weeks, then return to find homemade thru axles and broken forks?
Has the world gone crazy?
(Extra points if you get what movie they is from)

Fat- any chance of some photos of your DIY TAs?

Bruto- given my spooked feeling for snapping Miracle forks (my phone just tried to make that into "miracle girls") interested in that new fork. 
Please keep the data coming and a web link would be great. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Many many apologies here JCB I lied ! 
It wasn't 120g saved it was only 112g :blush:
Oh the shame . What can I say the grey matter's not what it used to be 















Also these are the only 2 pics I have left after my phone died :madmax:

Might be enough to get the gist of things otherwise I will have to take some more , if required 

I also need to do some measuring as I think I have found a better source or bolts and washers (A more robost design used in karting I think ???)

If you can use a drill (a press is better) 
And you can use a saw (blades specifically for cutting carbon are available)
Or a Dremmel with a cutting disc .
These are simple to make. 
Opposable thumbs are quite handy too (but I struggled here as can be seen by my attempts at image manipulation ) 

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

P.S. I might even turn the lights on for the next pics 


Fat Biker


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

this is the company, JCB:
https://aelbike.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.7803228.0.0.R3r26T
Products-ShenZhen YiErLan Sports Equipment Technology Co.,Ltd
looks like a bunch of open mold products, like in so many other places
the fork in question is called ACC-D779 and it's not on the site for some reason
apparently, they can make it with both PM and flat mount - but you have to order quite a few to get them made to your spec, so that's for bulk customers only
an individual like me or you is offered whatever remains in stock


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## pgm83 (Oct 13, 2014)

Fat Biker said:


> Why not make your own JCB ? I did for the fatty . Held up to their maiden gentle test run yesterday just fine.
> 
> Fat Biker


This is really impressive! I would love to see a step by step guide with pictures. That's asking a bit though.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

pgm83 said:


> This is really impressive! I would love to see a step by step guide with pictures. That's asking a bit though.
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


Thanks PGM . Not as impressive as them actually staying in one piece under my lard  LOL

Fat Biker


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

carbon tubes like these might be hard to find
no idea where you get them


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Damn Fat. 
Damn. 

I'm pretty much drowning a slow death during a week long work training. 
And I'm thinking about DIY thru axles. 

It does sound like plenty of work to do, but I'd be thankful for a more step/step process of those things. 
Very cool. 

If you get off your lazy ass and finally do something for me, I'll send you a bag of M&Ms. 
Yea- you read that right. 

Big promises man. Big promises. 

-JCB


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

PMSL . Oh you know me so well JCB  
Anything for an M&M .

Will see what I can muster for the weekend (I only got Sunday off this week  )

Patience guys patience LOL .


Fat Biker

P.S. Camera skills notwithstanding so don't be expecting tooooo much


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

pulled the trigger on the D779 fork from these guys: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8X9ucAFfHNtY2tXLXd5TkxSdkU&usp=drive_web
Turns out, they're a long time mfg partner of Aprebic ( http://www.evo.com.tw )
Who, according to the SGS document scans on the former's site, make or used to make Whisky forks. Likely to different specs/with stricter QC and maybe not in Shenzhen but in Taiwan. Stilll, better credentials than some 

aelbike/yierlan also have a beefier T-A fork with an alloy steerer (D757 in the catalog), but they didn't have it in stock so, fingers crossed, I won't regret not waiting for that one as D779 will serve me for years without failure


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

For the record, this other fork (Aelbike/Aprebic ACC-D779) is 60g heavier than Miraclebike's after having the steerer cut to the same length (445 vs 385g), despite having more slender fork blades, which, I think, is a reassuring sign. Flanges are shallower too, so it won't have a problem with my Fastace front hub (stepped endcaps didn't sit flush with the dropouts on the broken fork, allowing the wheel to rock a little even after being tightened up)

Held up fine during a recent outing (although I'm reluctant to brake from 50kph to full stop now, so didn't really test its limits to the extreme 

The mud clearance is a little smaller, though, and 40c Kenda Flintridge on a 20mm IW rim doesn't have enough to avoid accumulation of muck between tire and crown. But that's a wrong tire for mud anyway (slides easily), so no biggie I guess


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Is there a thread with Chinese carbon merchant reviews/feedback around here? My fork story is kinda over, I'd like to post a summary where more people can see it


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Bruto-
Not that I've seen. Maybe start your own and we'll see if other folks w/ similar events chime in. 

-JCB


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

crossposting then: Chinese Carbon Thread and Ebay direct version 7.0 - Page 23
tags: velocarbon, miraclebike, sucks


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*Miracle For Sale! 54cm*

On paper this bike is perfect, under me- not so. Well, to be honest my road bike doesn't do my neck any favors either. 
Pretty sure road geometry and my neck aren't the best pairing.

So the Miracle frame/fork are for sale. 
It's not a Salsa, I just had these old stickers. They'll peel right off if you don't want them. 
54cm frame
Custom paint. (the black bands are reflective)
BB30 or BSA (w/ included BSA insert)
Includes several drop outs so you can make the rear QR or thru axle. 
Includes Miracle seat collar and headset. 
In the photos you'll see a seatpost, seat, bars, brakes... But it doesn't include those. 
Just the frame/fork/drop outs listed above/front and rear axels/headset. 
If you are interested in running it as a single speed- I'll include the Wheels Manufacturing eccentric BB30 adapter. 
Eccentric Bottom Bracket for BB30 & 24/22mm (SRAM, Truvativ) Cranks - Red

I'm happy to ship in the US, and happy to take any questions about this frame/fork. 
Need different photos? Let me know and I'll take em.

$500, I pay shipping. 
Go ride, it's June. 
-JCB


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## Henrik J (Apr 15, 2011)

I´m normally riding MTB but will for the variation ride some CX i the coming fall/Winther.

I have been running thru the complete tread and maybe I have overseen my questions. But it seems there is a lot about the axels and other technical stuff such as tire clearance but I am looking for some "reviews"/experience of the handling in CX terrain (in other words, the geometry).

When I compare the FM286 frame geo with e.g. CruX and Mares it seems like the BB i sitting relative high and that the Stack is pretty aggressive. But as I’m new to CX I am not aware have big effect this will have on the handling and “body feeling” after many hours in the saddle and on the tracks.

Can anybody help with some experience and also on witch size of FM286 frame you are running (incl. your height and inseam).

Thanks in behalf


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

HenrikJ, nvm the stack number, unless it's too high and you're a road racer
if the HT is short, just keep more of the steerer and use the headset spacers, then you can gradually lower the bars until the fit suits you

Also not sure how many people here would notice the BB height difference of 1cm unless it meant catching pedals on the ground in turns 

oh yeah, and read my post about Miraclebike experience above (#post12688865 ) - fo286 T-A fork that comes with FM286 is really too light to feel safe riding it and I can't recommend the seller as far as customer service is concerned

fortunately, they aren't the only place selling what you want

you can check this seller out: a-dbikes | eBay
he was selling nice Taiwanese framesets at a discount (like $550 for the set with cane creek 40 HS) on several occasions
here's the CX w/geo: https://www.a-dbikes.com/product/ubercross-carbon-disc-limited-frame-set/

then there's Flyxii: Cyclocross - ShenZhen Flyxii Sports
no T-A options listed, though, but:

Yishunbike/Lightcarbon/ACEbike appears to sell the frame made in the same mold as one of Flyxii's, but with thru-axles (albeit 12mm in the front): YISHUNBIKE
If it's made by them, then there's likely a difference in manufacturing process (Yishunbike point out their superior manufacturing), but no way to confirm unless they tell you
Not sure if the T-A and QR forks here are the same model with interchangeable dropouts or entirely different

You can also buy just the frame you like and source a fork elsewhere
I ride Aprebic after my FO286 broke and it's certainly beefier (was $105 with axle, too, but I was lucky to seriously save on shipping)
Can post their contacts if anyone wants
There's also the massive and seemingly unbreakable Trigon fork being sold at reasonable price by bike24.com (but QR only): https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=137803;menu=1000,4,21


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## Henrik J (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks for your feedback Bruto.

Regarding the BB high (app. 10-15 mm higher) and the low stack I would presume that the handling of the bike in the terrain would be agile. Or said in other words, would be difficult to handle I technical terrain??
Regarding the axel I can see there have been a lot of debate and learnings witch I have to have in mind.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

found the Aelbike/Aprebic fork on ebay: 2016 New 700c T800 UD Matt Tapered Cyclocross Disc Brake Carbon Gravel Bike Fork | eBay
take this if you want thru-axle at the front instead of FO286
it's flat mount, though, so you'll need this adapter:
https://static.bike-components.de/c...Flat-Mo-e45f68fc7d0cbd60191bf4d2f8135bfb.jpeg


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## DitchDoc (Jul 11, 2016)

Has anyone else had any problems with the Miracle Bikes frame? I'm thinking of getting one, maybe the new CX028 (Flat-Mount), to have a geared option for longer gravel rides and maybe to actually try and do well in some CX3 and Master's races. It's tough to get into the top 10 on a single speed CX bike and I'm not getting younger.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

ask them how much the fork alone weighs


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## Henrik J (Apr 15, 2011)

Henrik J said:


> Thanks for your feedback Bruto.
> 
> Regarding the BB high (app. 10-15 mm higher) and the low stack I would presume that the handling of the bike in the terrain would be agile. Or said in other words, would be difficult to handle I technical terrain??
> Regarding the axel I can see there have been a lot of debate and learnings witch I have to have in mind.


Is there really no one that cane give a review of the FM286 frames handling abilities ??


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

I'd go with OnOne over one of these Chi-carbon cross frames. Well reviewed, with warranty and comes with the right thru-axles. Available as a frame or full build...can even get it with straight bars. Seriously considering this over building an unreliable Asian carbon frame with too many unknown issues. Plenty of space for 40c tires and it may even fit these fatties: Riddler 45c | WTB

On One Bish Bash Bosh SRAM Rival 11 HRD Adventure Bike | Planet X


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## azzkijborodach (Aug 12, 2016)

NH Mtbiker said:


> I'd go with OnOne over one of these Chi-carbon cross frames. Well reviewed, with warranty and comes with the right thru-axles. Available as a frame or full build...can even get it with straight bars. Seriously considering this over building an unreliable Asian carbon frame with too many unknown issues. Plenty of space for 40c tires and it may even fit these fatties: Riddler 45c | WTB
> 
> On One Bish Bash Bosh SRAM Rival 11 HRD Adventure Bike | Planet X


Hello!

I have some question, that I haven't find any info on: can You post some tyre clearance photos with Your 45C tyres on?

Thank You.
Pavel.


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## jollyjared (Dec 15, 2013)

c1gary said:


> Here they are...
> 
> View attachment 1025691
> View attachment 1025692


Good looking bike C1Gary! What kind of tires are those?


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

Well a pothole just destroyed my Traitor Crusade frame. First time I've ever broken a frame of any kind. I need a replacement and I'm having a hard time deciding between Chinese carbon, particularly the "workswell" WCB-C-112 or a name brand aluminum frame like a Trek Crockett or a Kona Private Jake.

The Boone is $750, the Kona is $700, and the Workswell is $590. Not sure whether to go with lighter, cheaper carbon or more reliable aluminum. I will be racing so weight will matter a bit.


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## rusty904 (Apr 25, 2008)

WCB-C-112-workswellbikes

The Workswell


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## qspencer (Mar 16, 2015)

rusty904 said:


> WCB-C-112-workswellbikes
> 
> The Workswell


I hadn't heard of Workswell before. From the photos and geometry charts, it appears to be identical to the Miracle Bikes CX028. I'm curious whether both come from the same factory through different sellers, or if "open mold" truly means there are multiple copies of the same mold out there.

I built two Miracle Bikes MC286 in mid 2015 (58 cm for myself and 48cm for my wife). I have put about 700 miles on mine so far and I have no reason to believe it won't last for many more. I also own a Chinese road frame bought from Velobuild, and I would say the build quality of the frames from Miracle Bikes was slightly better. However, there have been some minor flaws. The 48 cm frame had a front derailleur mount that was misaligned by a few degrees, making it hard to get the front shifting to work as well as I wanted. I eventually converted it to 1X for other reasons, so it's no longer a problem. The MC286 also had what I considered to be some design flaws: overly steep seat tube in smaller frame sizes, high bottom bracket and short head tube across all sizes. The CX028/WCB-C-112 remedies all of these, giving a full 2cm increase in stack height across the whole geometry range, plus the extra tire clearance.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Anybody want to buy my Miracle? 
I'll make you a screaming deal in order to justify a new trip. I mean to fund, I mean to make it OK w/ the wife.

54cm. Built up Spring of 2015. Ridden more last year, less so this year.

Lemme know. Maybe we can find a price that works for each of us. I'm leaning towards the $350-$400 mark. 







-JCBs


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

FO286... from Miraclebike  uh-huh


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

Hey Bruto
Thanks for the link to the fork option. I didn't realize the miracle fork was so light. Even the 779 on ebay at 410 gms seems light for a thru axle cross fork. Now that you have had the new fork for a while what is your opinion. Still okay? What do you think max tire size is? Is the thru axle fit good? There were some comments about a little slop around the miracle axle in the dropouts. Cable routing goes thru the fork leg okay? I'm not crazy about the placement of the fender mounts on the dropout...I think they could have put those on the inside of the leg higher up and hidden them better. Did you ever see the same fork without fender mounts? Anyway would appreciate your opinion.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

the fork is fine, but it didn't see alot of riding
TA fit is ok, I glued the nut in to make my life easier, no problems whatsoever
I run 40c Kenda Flintridge tire on 22mm IW rim and it's fine with about 10mm of clearance all around as long as you don't go looking for sticky mud 
When I found some, I had to walk the bike or clear the mud every so often

as far as brake cable routing is concerned, it's not the best fit for TRP HY/RD, but might work better with other calipers (I run the cable through the leg anyway cause it looks cleaner)

Aelbike make evern bigger fork now, by the way: https://aelbike.en.alibaba.com/product/60541764916-803903055/700C_29er_Carbon_Gravel_Fork.html
looks massive enough to fit a 27.5 wheel with a DH tire  (not sure it could handle the braking forces such a tire can generate, though)
I'm eyeing it myself


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

bruto said:


> the fork is fine, but it didn't see alot of riding
> TA fit is ok, I glued the nut in to make my life easier, no problems whatsoever
> I run 40c Kenda Flintridge tire on 22mm IW rim and it's fine with about 10mm of clearance all around as long as you don't go looking for sticky mud
> When I found some, I had to walk the bike or clear the mud every so often
> ...


Thanks for the info. I will have a good look at the heavier version. I don't mind a few extra gms especially on the fork and 450 is not that heavy. When you glued in the nut does it actually slide into the dropout much like the backing nut on a chainring bolt or does the axle protrude thru the dropout and the nut is threaded on.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

bruto said:


> View attachment 1104672


Thanks. Looks great. AEL replied back and they also have the same fork as yours but with the fender mounts not on the dropout but further up the leg...model 8009. 420gms This is one of those few times I wish it were a little heavier for a bit more peace of mind. The 700/29er model is a bit heavier at 445 but the clearance I think a little overkill for typical cross tire sizes. Anyway thanks for the legwork.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Just a quick update on my MC-286 frame from Miracle Bikes. I purchased the frame back in 2014 and have been happily riding it ever since. No major problems to report.

Riding yesterday morning on a relatively flat section of road, I felt a clunk in the crank area, I stopped pedaling, looked down, and the whole bottom bracket section had come out of the frame! It's a threaded bottom bracket, so the external cups were still intact. Basically, the whole bottom bracket area, with the cups and the crankset (of course) just popped out towards the drivetrain side.

I was about 3 miles from home, so I tried to kick the whole contraption back into the bike, which worked partially and allowed me to limp my way home.

Since I've had the frame for almost 3 years, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'm probably not going to get any kind of warranty replacement, but I emailed Jenny at Miracle Bikes anyways just to see what response I'd get. I haven't heard back from her yet.

Just my 2 cents, and maybe this is a common occurrence with these frames, but I've never seen the bottom bracket just pop out of a frame before. It's like someone didn't epoxy it strongly to the carbon portion of the frame.

Like I said, I'm not super disappointed, since I got 3 good years out of it, but just a note of warning to those people thinking of purchasing a chinese no-name frame.

Overall, I loved the frame and had no major complaints up until this point. Maybe I'm lucky I didn't have catastrophic failure on a fast descent and do some major damage to myself.

Here are some pictures. You can see the whole crankset and bottom bracket area is about 1 cm towards the drivetrain. This is after I forced it back in with my foot.

.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Gluddy-
You're in a place that I was a few weeks after purchase. 
But do not despair! Your situation is easily remedied and low cost solutions are available. 

In my situation- the inner BSA sleeve became unglued. Once you remove that sleeve- it's a BB30. And there are several options to make a BB30 work with external cranks. 

The cheapest way might be to glue in a new sleeve. There are several options. From all my web research I leaned that this is usually a permanent solution. Or at least until it fails again!

There are also several versions of external adapters. I went with a KCNC and found it to be clean, simple, and served me well. 

Either way- your solution is a simple one. 
Slightly unfortunate but with a simple solution. 

Please keep us posted. 
JCBs.


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks JCB for your positive comment. I think I may mess with it this weekend, it looks like the bottom bracket shell should come out fairly easily.

I wonder if I can access part of the bottom bracket shell through the removable plate on the bottom of the frame. I'm almost certain I can take out the shell, clean it, and epoxy it back into the frame. I'll keep you updated.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Scanning back thru my admittedly broken and missing brain files....

No, you can't access the BB shell from the cable panel. 
You'll be able to see it, but won't be able to interact with it in the way that your wondering about. 

-Bones


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*The End of My Mircale*

I'm the guy who had the BSA BB fall out Spring of 2016.
I'm also the guy that Miracle was amazingly good to. They worked hard to find me a way to get the BB I wanted.

And I'm the guy that thought the bike wasn't for me. More comfy wise. My neck is too old or something. Whatever it is, the bars are too low for my comfort. 
Lots of single track later, plenty of gravel road... I figured I'd sell it.

Posted on here 1 or 2 times. Nope. No interest. My price got lower, a few questions came in but mostly- nope. No buyers.

I've ridden it more. Some days are good, others I think about new stems and a higher stack. 
It's been SS and 1x9. 
It has all the check boxes for a perfect bike. But it's not to be.

Pulled all the bits off recently. A good winter cleaning/buffing. 
Then I found this. 
Glad it never sold. I'd hate a buyer to think I'd screwed em. 
Not sure if it's the clear coat or the actual carbon. Do know it's very odd place for a crack. 
This is probably the nail in the coffin for this frame. 
What I'm seeing as a crack is that line above the BB shell.









Not sure what I'll do w/ it. Maybe saw it up. Maybe make it into a planter. 
If I do chop it up-
Do any of you need any of the frame bits? Small little pieces that sit in the frame as cable stops? The Miracle seat collar? Headset? Axles? Dropouts (TA and QR), Want the fork? 
I'd hate to ditch those bits if somebody needed em. 
First come first seved. You pay shipping. 
-JCBs


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## Gluddy (Mar 4, 2013)

*Bottom Bracket Repair on my MC-286*

Hi all,

Just wanted to update everyone on my BB repair on my MC-286 frame. The shell on my BSA bottom bracket came out when I was riding a few weeks ago, I've been putting off the repair until I had done some research.

Miracle Bikes was no help, but I figured that would be the case. i didn't even get a reply from anyone there.

Anyways, I finally pulled off the crank and bottom bracket cups, and realized that the shell just pops right out with an easy hit from a mallet. Definitely not in there like it should be.

I went ahead and epoxied (sp?) it back in place, using the Gorilla brand epoxy where you mix 2 different tubes and apply before it dries. I even pressed it back in place with a bottom bracket press.

I let it it cure for a few days, then reinstalled my bottom bracket cups and crankset.

Took it for a post repair ride, and it rides great. No movement or sounds from the bottom bracket. I'm really pleased with the repair, and how easy it was.


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

*How to kill my frame?*

I posted a few days ago about getting rid of this frame due to a possible crack at the BB. 
Since then I've pulled all bit off and the fork. Everything but the frame has been sent to a new owner w/ the hope that it'll keep a rider riding when needed.

So that leaves me w/ a frame. 
Just a frame. No axles, no dropouts nothing.

Seems like a way for us to learn something. Anyone? How do I destroy this frame? 
If possible, I'll photograph/video it's failure.

Anyone have some ideas on how we can test this to see how it lives/dies?

All I can think of is putting a large pipe/dowel in the BB, then putting another in the headset and getting all medieval on it.

Pretty sure I'm not going to put this type of time into the project but it'd be cool to see. 
Santa Cruz Bicycles - Test Lab - Pinkbike

-JCBs


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

take it to ultrasound  maybe it's not broken after all and can be sold to recoup the cost of above procedure


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## Bhaalgorn (Jul 16, 2015)

Johnny Chicken Bones said:


> I posted a few days ago about getting rid of this frame due to a possible crack at the BB.
> Since then I've pulled all bit off and the fork. Everything but the frame has been sent to a new owner w/ the hope that it'll keep a rider riding when needed.
> 
> So that leaves me w/ a frame.
> ...


I'd like to see some gradual increase of destruction. Start with a rock, then slash at it with a knife, then beat it with a hammer, chop it with an axe. Set it on a saw horse and drop 10-200 lbs of weight on it from the side.

And lastly, melt it with a heat gun!


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

Given the many tubes I have to work with, I could easily whack at the top tube a bit w/ various materials. 
Then use the down tube for other torture! 

-JCB


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

try making it burn


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## Johnny Chicken Bones (Jul 13, 2005)

I just watched a few you tube videos about burning CF. 
Not sure it'll burn so great! The paint will burn well probably but maybe not the carbon. 

But, fire is added to the list of destruction. 
And a hammer.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

you might need fluorine


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## ganski (Nov 15, 2015)

Has anyone built up a miracle cx536 frame , it looks like it's got wide tire clearance and bb options. I was told a 58 would be 1508 grams for frame and fork. I'm looking for a gravel rig and something I can still race single speed with an eccentric bb.

http://www.miraclebikes.com/product...rakescyclocrossbikeslatestdesignCXbi03005738/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

thru-axle and cantilevers? makes sense


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## ganski (Nov 15, 2015)

bruto said:


> thru-axle and cantilevers? makes sense


I think it can also run 9 x 130 with an interchangeable dropout

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jkidd_39 (Sep 13, 2012)

So before I pull the trigger miracle bikes cx535 is a good frame/good supplier with some minor build issues(cable routing, ect)?

I don't wanna pull the trigger on a maybe not so good one. 

Do you guys order direct from the website or alibaba?

Thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## pade (May 20, 2007)

Preface: I've only skimmed the 8 pages so pardon me if I missed something.

Looking for some input of current/previous frame owners, or anybody that can offer input in general.

Is there a significant difference between Miracle Bike, Yishun, Workswell, Flyxii, or other brands that are found on Ali/eBay? 

The models I'm considering are:
Flyxii FR603
Workswell WCB-C-112
MB CX028
Yishun LCX027-D

I'm not very particular on which dropouts the frame has as both qr and thru axle wheelsets are readily available used in my area. I'm really only interested in BB30 so that I could use an eccentric bb for a ss setup, and disc brakes. Beyond that, I haven't researched other options, and I figure all the manufacturers I listed offer the same finishes.


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## slo_rider (Mar 22, 2007)

*Angle Cycle AG028*

I bought the AG028 disc brake and 12x142 / 15x100 thru axle frame from Angle Cycle last year, along with their V-brake / std QR AG038 frame for a friend.

I built the V-brake frame and posted it here. As I wrote on RBR, my dealings with "Kevin" last year before and after placing my order were top notch. I hope Kevin is still with Angle, and if so, I wouldn't hesitate to order from Angle again (been eyeing their AG336 27.5+/29/29+ frameset).

I missed out on getting the wheelset I originally wanted for the disc brake / thru axle 'cross bike (November's carbon "Range" wheels, that were sadly discontinued shortly after they became available).

However, after waiting patiently this spring for November's RFSW3's built with A Force's innovative Al33 alloy rims (~33mm deep, ~20mm inner width, toroidal U-shaped cross section, ~475g), I finally built up the AG028.

Unlike the V-brake frame (weighed 1090g on my postal scale), I was too hasty to weigh the Disc/thru-axle frame or fork prior to completion. But I don't doubt it's within the range Angle spec'd on their site,"1080g +/- 45g". Front fork has approx 56mm space bw blades at the crown of my 622x25mm tires, while chainstays and seatstays have approx 50mm space between the stays. IIRC, the maximum tire width is spec'd as 40mm, but one should be able to run 42mm tire up front easily, and possibly in the rear as well, without things getting too tight.

Anyway, here it is, currently built for paved road use w/ 50-34 cranks and 12-27 cassette: 








As shown, it weighs a hair over 19 lbs, including TRP Spyre mech disc brakes, 160mm Shimano ice tech rotors, old school Time "Alium ATAC" mtb pedals (claimed weight 425g) and small saddle bag (w/ steel core tire levers, Crank Bros multi tool, patch kit). So I dunno-it's probably under 18 lbs without pedals or saddle bag.

As for the building process, it went together fairly smoothly. I had to get a 6mm tap and chase the disc brake threads, but GXP BB threaded into the shell without problems. Getting the full length rear brake housing through the frame required a bit of elbow grease, but I bet it would have been much easier if I put a bit of that gel lube electricians use to pull wire through conduit on the leading inch or 2 of housing. Did the usual snaking brake wire through the internally routed liner, pulled the liner, then snaked housing over the internally routed brake wire.

So far on the road, it rides great. The only other carbon frame I've owned and ridden was a Tarmac, and this has the same quiet, muted road feel, as well as stiffness around the BB-stomp on the pedals and it moves without hesitation just like the Tarmac did. And as expected for 'cross oriented geometry (70.5 deg HA, 73 deg SA, 425mm chainstays), it's noticeably more stable descending twisty mountain roads than a typical race-oriented road bike. Of course, wheels and tires play a big role in how the bike feels, and I'm extremely pleased with November's RFSW3's mounted with 25mm Conti GP 4000S II tires-they spin up quickly, feel plenty fast riding tempo, and are stable in cross winds.


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