# Warbird.



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

This breaks new ground.

I don't make bicycles. I make weapons systems. | Peter Verdone Designs


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## snox700 (Oct 6, 2016)

It just looks... right. Well done.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

That stemdlebar is really really cool.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Not my thing at all (I'm the same height and can't stand anything over about 720mm front center even for DH/fullface shenanigans), but well done! Making different weird **** and trying it for yourself is what framebuilding started out as, and should stlll be about.

-Walt


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Hmmm, 200mm more into the wheelbase and you have a motorcycle. Thats been a trend for some time.

Nice build though.

Eric


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I guess pvd questioned if the "bottom bracket" term is obsolete. Can't argue with "crank height" and "crank shell". So much of MTB's BS was carried over from road anyways. Won't miss the stuff as they're replaced by more MTB-specific stuff. Heck, I'm surprised pvd isn't jumping on these early solutions to ditch the RD, considering his past experience wrecking them. Probably not up to his standards I guess.

I dig the long FC. Will be one of those bikes you charge on, in an aggro tuck with chin over stem. I think it'd be too unstable with a 425mm CS though. I'd up that to 440 or so, just to make it so I won't desire FS and give it a much more peaceful ride quality.

Once watched some Fab Barel video in which he speaks of Forward Geo testing, and mentioned that things feel weird when the grips are behind the steerer (I think it was with Dirt/Steve Jones, in some relatively candid night time interview). Thinking that he meant the location of the handlebar center...


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

I'm interested to see what Sam and Peter conclude from all this. Particularly Sam at Naked Bicycles actually, as where he rides is my preferred sort of riding (I haven't ridden on the island where he lives, but I have near by and it is reminiscent of what I like to ride at home). Peter already seems fervently 'for' this set up.








(pic is from nakedbicycles instagram- carbon bar parts held by pinch bolt to central section ~ very neat!)

My gut feeling is the FC is too long for me, but you never know. My latest bike is of the longer FC and shorter rear end style of geo, just nowhere near as extreme. My bar set up is a Jones bar with a shortish stem - which interestingly enough has the grip section pretty much in line with the steerer. I've ridden it this way for years and always liked it - just lean forward to weight the front end.









Anyhoo, interested....


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

Hard to say if I would like the ride characteristics of this bike, but no one gives more thought (or at least shares it publicly) to the subject of bicycle design than Peter. Thanks for sharing, Peter.


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

Nice innovation. Definitely qualifies for the downhill hardtail category.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

Better than the bad old days.









Good to see this type of experimentation going on.

Curious about what sweep those bars are at. After spending more time on mid-sweep bars (12-20 degrees) going back to stuff under 10 degrees feels odd.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

@eMcK setting the bar high *sarcasm*

Chainstay ~20% longer than reach? SA and HA #s swapped*? xD

* I measured 61d effective angle at the saddle (49d actual), and 67.7d HTA.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

eMcK said:


> Curious about what sweep those bars are at. After spending more time on mid-sweep bars (12-20 degrees) going back to stuff under 10 degrees feels odd.


PVD's are 9 degree according to his drawing in the link.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Love it!
I just made a frame with 780 front center but only a 130 fork and it's eye opening (414-434mm chainstays). I'm 6ft 1 and it still doesn't feel too long so i can imagine going longer but still crazy to think about what 850 would feel like. I totally get it, though i don't think they climb as well as a shorter front center and steeper angles but the tradeoff on the downhill performance and overall playfulness of the bike outweighs it for me at this point for me.

When i started building i remember reading all about front center here and it's fun to go back and check out what everyone USED to think about the "right" front center and all. Times have changed a lot in the last 5 years!
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/front-center-769883.html


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, it's funny. I've built myself some longer bikes and I despise them - for what I do on the local trails. So I guess I've stagnated. But the rest of the world seems to have moved on to longer and longer. Pete, your're riding ~200mm more front center than you were 6 years ago!

-Walt


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Don't blame me. I just write down the rules. I don't make them.

Forward Geometry | Peter Verdone Designs


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

Meriwether said:


> Love it!
> I just made a frame with 780 front center but only a 130 fork and it's eye opening (414-434mm chainstays). I'm 6ft 1 and it still doesn't feel too long so i can imagine going longer but still crazy to think about what 850 would feel like. I totally get it, though i don't think they climb as well as a shorter front center and steeper angles but the tradeoff on the downhill performance and overall playfulness of the bike outweighs it for me at this point for me.
> 
> When i started building i remember reading all about front center here and it's fun to go back and check out what everyone USED to think about the "right" front center and all. Times have changed a lot in the last 5 years!
> http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/front-center-769883.html


Cool. What else did you change geo wise besides a longer front centre? Or what is the seat angle, B.B. drop and head angle?

Also if you don't mind me asking what dropout did you use to achieve a 20mm range?


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

geraldooka said:


> Cool. What else did you change geo wise besides a longer front centre? Or what is the seat angle, B.B. drop and head angle?
> 
> Also if you don't mind me asking what dropout did you use to achieve a 20mm range?


Won't hijack and go into my bike but here's a little info on geometry. Not nearly as radical as PVD's. Dropouts are Paragon Sliders with 0.8" range. 
https://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/2018/09/13/sierra-scrambler/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

shirk said:


> PVD's are 9 degree according to his drawing in the link.


ah, missed the measurement. thanks.


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

Meriwether said:


> When i started building i remember reading all about front center here and it's fun to go back and check out what everyone USED to think about the "right" front center and all. Times have changed a lot in the last 5 years!
> http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/front-center-769883.html


That thread was from the hey-day of this forum IMO. Tons of discussion and info! I miss those days...

Oh, and nice work Peter, thanks for pushing and documenting.


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## inonjoey (Jul 19, 2011)

Looks interesting, PVD. I'd like to ride it to see how it compares to my most recent rides. 

I'm currently on a Knolly Fugitive, which is the most "progressive" bike in terms of geometry that I've thrown a leg over. For me, it seems like a nice sweet spot -- the longer front center (around 470 with a 160mm fork) works with the ~75 deg effective seat angle and relatively low stack to put me in a position that works pretty well on the flats, very well on the climbs and just about perfect on the descents (for me at least). I read something you'd said about lower stack heights putting you in a better position for descending as long as your arms could handle it, which got me to keep the stack nice and low as opposed to going back to my original comfort zone. So far so good.

My life/career met a couple of T-intersections over the past 15 years which pushed me out of the machine shop/design lab and into a very different line of work, so I appreciate someone that has the time, inclination and skill to design and build their own bikes giving insight into his design process.

Anyway, cool stuff, keep it coming.


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