# CR1 Engineering



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Anyone has tried any of their tuning packages?

https://www.cr1engineering.com


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Some more pics of their cartridges and pieces:


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Never heard of 'em but it looks promising.


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## Bikesair (Feb 20, 2006)

$300 is pretty harsh compared to the $179-$159 of Avalanche DH.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

CR1 is Cortina.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Yeah, Adrian Cortina, I thought he only tuned Progressive shocks but I checked his website and now he tunes almost all shocks...


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## General Havoc (Mar 28, 2007)

I had him "re-do" my Swinger 4-way for my Demo 9 about a year ago. The final price ended up being higher than the quote (thats not a good thing).

And so far I have been somewhat "un-impressed" with the results (but I'm a sucky rider, so your results may differ).

To my uneducated riding style the shock feels dead and spongy and changing the air pressure and rebound dampening settings don't seem to affect anything.

If I take the coil spring off the shock and check the action seems like it's valved for a motorcycle rather than my heavy bike and fat rider.

but maybe it's just me.


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## dropmachine.com (Apr 8, 2004)

While I have no doubt that CR1 can do some neat stuff, I'd send it to a suspension specialist like Craig at Avalanche first. Better price by a long shot too.


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## Dynamatt (Oct 14, 2007)

I've actually had them rebuild both my 5.0 and my 40 and the turn around was crazy fast, and Adrian actually threw down a quick tune on the 5.0. I am totally happy with them, my shock feels better than it ever has and all he did was set it up with the right air pressure, used nitrogen instead of air, and adjusted bottom out. They may be more expensive than others but they are local to me, and i will support a great guy like Adrian and his local business over PUSH or Avy


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Bikesair said:


> $300 is pretty harsh compared to the $179-$159 of Avalanche DH.


Does Avalanche upgrade the piston, piston base, rebound/compression needles, seal head, and bottoming bumper? It's a great package at a great price for what you get. :thumbsup:


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

dropmachine.com said:


> While I have no doubt that CR1 can do some neat stuff, I'd send it to a suspension specialist like Craig at Avalanche first. Better price by a long shot too.


Adrian is a suspension specialist. He designs some crazy stuff, and knows how to make a shock work EXTREMELY well. I design off road race vehicle suspension, and can tune these shocks myself, but I trust Adrian to do it as he's a pro. It's fun to bounce stuff off him for even my line of work, as I'm always impressed with what he knows.


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## Bikesair (Feb 20, 2006)

thuren said:


> Does Avalanche upgrade the piston, piston base, rebound/compression needles, seal head, and bottoming bumper? It's a great package at a great price for what you get. :thumbsup:


Actually, ya, they do: http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm

Just noting the price difference for almost the exact same tuning...


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Bikesair said:


> Actually, ya, they do: http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm
> 
> Just noting the price difference for almost the exact same tuning...


For the entire BOXXER or just rear shocks?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Bikesair said:


> Actually, ya, they do: http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm
> 
> Just noting the price difference for almost the exact same tuning...


I see cool! Just note there is quite a difference in parts.

CR1 replaces the entire piston, piston base, and rebound needle with their own design parts. Avalanche seems to use the OE parts, but remove/rework some stuff, toss the SPV housing, and throw some shims on the compression side where the SPV salve sat. The CR1 piston uses a smaller ID shim stack, which will let the shims deflect easier, blow off more, and do it more reliably.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Avalanches setup, but it's not "basically the same" by any means.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thuren said:


> Does Avalanche upgrade the piston, piston base, rebound/compression needles, seal head, and bottoming bumper? It's a great package at a great price for what you get. :thumbsup:


lol...yes. I believe Craig at Avalanche has a PhD in hydrodynamics or something like that.

Avalanche Downhill Racing, Inc. was formed in 1998 by the owners of C Cycle Suspension and WTE Racing to provide the industry with a high performance front suspension capable of meeting the demands of extreme down hill racing. The performance goal was to design the front suspension with the latest features of motocross technology, while maintaining down hill racing requirements. 
Craig Seekins, owner of C Cycle Suspension, provides 16 years of motocross suspension tuning and 19 years of mechanical design engineering experience to Avalanche. Eric Wold, of WTE Racing, provides Avalanche with the insights and contacts of a NORBA expert racer, as well as 13 years of top quality CNC machining experience. Riders like Lars Tribus,"Pistol" Pete Loncarevich, Adrian Cortina, John Moore, Fred Bassett and many more have provided valuable input during the development of Avalanche forks. Today, Avalanche is committed to providing limited production "Works Forks" for the most demanding downhill rider. Each fork is custom set-up for the individual needs of the rider. Our dedication to the sport will ensure the highest quality and performance, guaranteed.

Eliminates SPV piston and replaced with a tapered shim stack revalved for speed sensitive damper piston set-up.








New low speed compression adjuster to replace beginning stroke adjuster screw, increases range of low speed adjustment from firm to super plush.








New higher rate spring, reconfigures end of stroke adjuster to a high speed adjuster with a rate adjusted blow-off valve.








Improved common bleed rebound circuit for more lively feel and increased lift over jumps, improved rebound adjustment with modified rebound needle profile and machined shaft bolt to accept a more progressive tapered rebound valving shim stack.








Improved bottom out bumper for smoother full stroke








New and inproved seals, DU bushing and dust wiper to reduce stiction








Improved teflon insert bushings for increased wear and reduced weight









I sure wouldn't dump $300 into a 5th element when Avalanche can do it for $170 or so. If I had that $300 I'd save it up for an Avalanche DHS or Chubbie, it will be more capable (bigger piston diameter, ability to flow under extremely fast hits, real high/low speed adjustability, etc) than that upgraded 5th. $300 is a lot to dump into an old shock, probably why Avalanche offers the service for $170. Push does something similer with Fox shocks. Get your hands on an old Vanilla, or a DHX, or newer Vanilla, they essentially gut it and put in their own piston and shim stacks, bottom-out bumper, IFP height, all tuned for you. Still quite a bit cheaper than sinking $300 in a 5th.

Is the CR1 5th mod better than the Avalanche one? Possible. Will it perform noticably better? Hard to say, despite what you claim, there are going to be limitations of the piston size and chassi that may make further modifications pointless. It doesn't make the CR1 stuff useless, if you want the best performing 5th chassi I guess you can go for it. Fork cartridges may be a good market if the price and performance is right.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Honestly I'm not digging the Avalanche bumper too much, as it's short and fat like the original, which would create a quick transition. The CR1 bumper is a long soft BASF type foam cone, so you don't even know you bottomed. Just look at the high flow machining on the CR1 piston.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thuren said:


> Honestly I'm not digging the Avalanche bumper too much, as it's short and fat like the original, which would create a quick transition


Avalanche showed ONE bumper in the picture.

You do realize that Avalanche has a variety of bumper shapes and durometers to use right? They even have special shaped cups on their other shocks that force the bumpers into shapes that add even more progression when needed. I think you can safely say that Craig knows what he is doing. Not only that, but the IFP height, rider weight/style, and bike the shock is being used on all contribute to the proper bumper being speced, at least that's how it is with my other Avalanche shocks.

I see some features on the Avalanche 5th mod that aren't offered on the CR1.

$600 on that CR1 fork cartridge. Willing to compare to Avalanche's $400 cartridge?

Cortina should KNOW that Avalanche knows what they are doing. Avalanche made linkage/shock kits for their bikes with the MTN shock after all.


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## bigEhit (Aug 14, 2007)

plain and simple Adrian Cortina is a evil genius when it comes to tunign and getting the most out of your suspension. i hate to say it though but the people who are not happy with his stuff are the people who have no business having shocks custom valved because more times then not they are the ones at fault because they really have no idea what it is they want from the tune. They are the peopel who just say i want my shock to be smoother. then they complain its to "dead" aka plush as hell and lacks pop. and they complain when they come up short on a local gap that the rear end bottoms out to easy. when dealing with CR1 you really need to know what you want out of the tune and you need to be specific.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Nice guys and all, but way too high-dollar for half-assed work, or work done incorrectly (which is the more common scenario). Once they get their stuff assembled right it generally feels pretty good though.

They also have some hyper-expensive sealed and pressurized cartridge for a 888 which makes no sense to me at all.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bigEhit said:


> plain and simple Adrian Cortina is a evil genius when it comes to tunign and getting the most out of your suspension. i hate to say it though but the people who are not happy with his stuff are the people who have no business having shocks custom valved because more times then not they are the ones at fault because they really have no idea what it is they want from the tune. They are the peopel who just say i want my shock to be smoother. then they complain its to "dead" aka plush as hell and lacks pop. and they complain when they come up short on a local gap that the rear end bottoms out to easy. when dealing with CR1 you really need to know what you want out of the tune and you need to be specific.


There's no doubt that you need to be specific when getting a custom-valved shock. I don't understand all the guys that keep talking about the "pop" or whatever off of drops and jumps. I've been riding Romics, DHXs, 5ths, Curnuts, Avalanches, and many many more, and I've never had any issue with that. Jumps, drops, gaps, whatever. These people don't know how to ride or something. I had no problem getting the 5th to jump off of stuff, in fact I blew it up the first day I had it at Northstar doing all the fun features (this was back in the day). It definitely lifted off of the ground fine. Maybe you don't go as far or launch as sharply or something (still, I've had no problems here), but I want my shocks to work, so it must be a trailbuilding problem, in that the launch isn't sharp enough, the run-in doesn't allow for enough speed, it's too "big" for the speed you can get, and so on.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Jayem said:


> There's no doubt that you need to be specific when getting a custom-valved shock. I don't understand all the guys that keep talking about the "pop" or whatever off of drops and jumps. I've been riding Romics, DHXs, 5ths, Curnuts, Avalanches, and many many more, and I've never had any issue with that. Jumps, drops, gaps, whatever. These people don't know how to ride or something. I had no problem getting the 5th to jump off of stuff, in fact I blew it up the first day I had it at Northstar doing all the fun features (this was back in the day). It definitely lifted off of the ground fine.


Typically has to do with a springrate and ride-height that is nowhere near correct. The funniest thing is people getting re-valves without having EVER ridden the stock unit properly sprung to see what needs to be changed.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Cortina should KNOW that Avalanche knows what they are doing. Avalanche made linkage/shock kits for their bikes with the MTN shock after all.


Who said they don't think Avalanche knows what they are doing?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thuren said:


> Who said they don't think Avalanche knows what they are doing?


I guess that didn't come off correctly. I thought you were associated with CR1. My bad. I wish Cortina, err I mean CR1 all the best in the world, good suspension is somewhat of a rarity (but finally getting more common), but at those prices (shock, fork cartridge) I think the market is going to be slim pickins. For example, Push offers all of this for $199

Complete external inspection
Complete disassembly
Complete cleaning and inspection of all internal parts
Performance Urethane Shaft Seal Installed
Proprietary PUSH Urethane Shaft Wiper installed
O-Rings Replaced
Heavy duty replenish shim installed (PUSH Exclusive)
Oil Viscosity and Volume set using premium Maxima Racing Shock Fluids.
Complete reassembly
Nitrogen gas fill
Eyelet DU Bushings replaced
All shock functions are checked by technician utilizing a hand dyno
Secondary Technician review of all shock functions is completed
PUSH Factory Rebuild decal applied
Settings card filled out by Technician and signed

Factory Tuning System
Performance tuning taking into consideration rider weight, style and bike model.
Complete Factory Rebuild (listed above)
Installation of PUSH VxRII High Flow Piston
Installation of PUSH asymmetrical valve piston bolt eliminating crossover of external adjusters
Compression Revalve
Rebound Revalve
PUSH Factory Conical Bottoming Bumper


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Jayem said:


> I guess that didn't come off correctly. I wish Cortina, err I mean CR1 all the best in the world, good suspension is somewhat of a rarity (but finally getting more common), but at those prices I think the market is going to be slim pickins.
> 
> I thought you were associated with CR1. My bad.


No worries!

I'm long time friends with one of the new partners, who is kind of in the position to make sure things get done, and done right. CR1 is separate from the Cortina Bikes part now, and they are focusing on the suspension duties.

Adrians been doing this for a long time now, and I'm pretty certain things are getting done right 99.9% of the time.

This Cartridge is truely a work of art, and I believe it will revolutionize the way forks feel once some get spread around.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

thuren said:


> and I believe it will revolutionize the way forks feel


What will revolutionize suspension is when companies just flat out copy moto designs. Much like the avy DHS shock. They need to stop half-assing stuff.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Gemini2k05 said:


> What will revolutionize suspension is when companies just flat out copy moto designs. Much like the avy DHS shock. They need to stop half-assing stuff.


I would have to agree with you, and that is basically what the CR1 fork cartridge is. In fact with a couple extras. I raced Motocross for 10 years, and I wish I had hydraulic bottom out in the forks.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Essentially this is happening right now. Fox stuff is based on sound principles, if the chassi isn't always as well thought-out, Marzocchi has the new Evo cartridge with a decent base-valve, RS has a decent shim-stack controlled high speed circut, avalanche has their new cartridge with a good base-valve, mid-valve and anti-bottoming cone (fox uses the anti-bottoming cone as well). Then there's the RC4 rear shock, RS Vivid, and so on. The real question is why did it take this long to get this stuff to market (with the exception of guys like Avalanche that have been doing it all along)? It's not like these are recent developments in the moto world. Like above, these guys have been half-assing it for a long time. Marzocchi's HSCV cartridge was ok in 1998, but they essentially kept it with very little modification until 2009 (same basic cartridge design). It seems like they are finally getting it. I'll probably save up for the $400 Avalanche cartridge though because I've had it with waiting for marzocchi to make something decent.

BTW Thuren, Avalanche does have a hydraulic-bottomout upgrade for 888 forks.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Baby-steps. Nothing REALLY substantial has come along since the '01 Boxxers. We just see little individual factors from moto stuff come trickling in piece by piece, then given funny names, and it usually never functions as well as it should or the way it claims to. 

Craig might be a stubborn mofo and it can be difficult to get the right valving spec out of him, but he has had the right configuration and right quality all along.

Since when is a sealed and pressurized cartridge a direct copy of moto stuff? Even the closed cartridge Twin-Chamber Showa and Kayaba stuff aren't pressurized units. They just use a spring-backed compensator piston that is SUPER easy to bleed. The Ohlins/TTX carts are the only charged cartridges I'm aware of, and I am doubtful the CR1 cart is anything near that.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

Craig at Avalanche makes some quality stuff. :thumbsup:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Baby-steps. Nothing REALLY substantial has come along since the '01 Boxxers. We just see little individual factors from moto stuff come trickling in piece by piece, then given funny names, and it usually never functions as well as it should or the way it claims to.
> 
> Craig might be a stubborn mofo and it can be difficult to get the right valving spec out of him, but he has had the right configuration and right quality all along.
> 
> Since when is a sealed and pressurized cartridge a direct copy of moto stuff? Even the closed cartridge Twin-Chamber Showa and Kayaba stuff aren't pressurized units. They just use a spring-backed compensator piston that is SUPER easy to bleed. The Ohlins/TTX carts are the only charged cartridges I'm aware of, and I am doubtful the CR1 cart is anything near that.


Err, the 01 boxxers were hydracoil models, essentially pumping-rod setups, as well as the 1998, 1999 (which I had) 2000, 2002, 2003 and 2004. I'm not sure when they changed to the motion-control (2004 or 5?), but THAT was a baby-step in between a real shimmed-setup. I'll say though that the marzocchi cartridges, as crude as they were, worked far better than those old boxxers. Marzocchi at least "started" a little more ahead of the game with their cartridge dampers, whereas the Boxxer was just a train-wreck until it got motion-control, and it was still far-behind in terms of chassi at that point.

In the big picture, I agree with you. These companies are just screwing around with half-ass attempts, and while I put the "cartridge" far ahead of the old pumping rod boxxer, I am also realizing how far behind BOTH of them were. Making the crude HSCV cartridge bombers from 1998 to 2009 was a travesty (RC2 and RC3 are pretty much the same thing), and making the pumping-rod boxxer from 1998-2004 was also a travesty.


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## AL29er (Jan 14, 2004)

DHidiot said:


> Craig might be a stubborn mofo and it can be difficult to get the right valving spec out of him, but he has had the right configuration and right quality all along.


Too funny. I have gone round and round with him on my 5th upgrade. He is very set on his way being the way to do it. But he has a lot of time in the development of his way, so if you set to his recommendations it usually is bang-on.

I ran across the CR1 site before. Their stuff looks good. But IMO/IME throwing $300 at a 5th Element or a Swinger is just plain dumb. They do have several "upgrades" over the AVA work, but seem to ignore the reservoir end of things. I think AVA kit still uses the stock piston, just converts it to a shimmed setup. Better or worse?


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Essentially this is happening right now.


Fox- Chasis that crumbles when it sees rocks, condom "bladder" in the cartridge, seals that don't exsist, and wtf is with those crush washers?

Zoke- Bushings/lowers, other minor production issues

RS- Where do I begin? Seals, bottom out elastomer bumper, forks with no oil, forks that leak through top caps, all that plastic damper garbage, 6-7 clicks of adjustment on those MC compression adjuster, air carts, stanchions that snap, can't just make a fork with an adjustable shim stack, etc.

Manitou- Maybe one of these days they'll make a fork that works for more than a day. Hopefully that dorado is good.

I wouldn't say they are anywhere NEAR that happening right now. As soon as someone makes a fork that doesn't require an oil change every month or 2, and lasts 4-5 seasons of hard riding, adjustable shim stack, and seals that last at least a year or 2, then we'll talk.


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## ccspecialized (Dec 30, 2008)

thuren said:


> CR1 replaces the entire piston, piston base, and rebound needle with their own design parts. Avalanche seems to use the OE parts, but remove/rework some stuff, toss the SPV housing, and throw some shims on the compression side where the SPV salve sat.


I think the fact that AVA reworks OE parts to fit their tune is smarter than tooling new pieces from scratch. I can see that being a big part of the price difference, and it's a smart way to keep cost down


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

No it's a half assed way, how expensive can it be to machine one little compression piston, it's nothing compared to all of machined and forged parts on mountain bikes already, just because you are machining a part to put in a shock shouldn't make it 5x more expensive. As for avalanche's mod I was able to order $30 in shims from an mx shop and copy the mod myself, admitted I am forgoing their custom tuning expertise, but I would rather play around with the shim stack myself, as well as save $150.


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## ccspecialized (Dec 30, 2008)

It's actually a lot more expensive. Machining from raw stock takes longer and requires more processes. Machining from existing parts is less expensive and faster. Also, anodizing shock internals adds a lot more to the price rather than function.

I'm not putting down either company's products, I'm pointing out possible reasons for the price difference.


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## AL29er (Jan 14, 2004)

Flystagg said:


> No it's a half assed way, how expensive can it be to machine one little compression piston...(snip)... As for avalanche's mod I was able to order $30 in shims from an mx shop and copy the mod myself, admitted I am forgoing their custom tuning expertise, but I would rather play around with the shim stack myself, as well as save $150.


1 piston would be very expensive to machine, probably $200-300. Do a hundred of them in a batch and they get more economical 

The AVA mod is not half assed. It is as in depth as necessary while maintaining an reasonable cost for the upgrade. In the end you are still stuck with a bit of a turd. The hydraulic topout protection pretty much assures that. Craig is open about the fact that you are still going to have a 5th element and be subject to it's limitations. He realizes that if the upgrade were any more indepth you might as well just buy one of his shocks and save both of you the headaches. Considering most service centers are $75-150 just to service a coil and add new seals I would say that the AVA upgrade is not out of line at $179.

You may have saved a bit of money, but IMO you are missing the best part of the kit. That is the mods to the compression LS/HS adjusters. For a trail bike they make a lot of difference over the stock internals. On a DH bike maybe not so much.


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## feanaro (Aug 8, 2006)

CR1 does nice work. Cortina has rebiult my shock a couple of times and it always feels amazing when I get it back. Cool guy to sit and chat with also, you should see some of his prototype stuff. . . . . . . . . . . way cool


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

I realize we are talking small batch custom parts which is why prices are so high. What would be really nice is if mainsteam suspension companies could just get it right to begin with. Avalanche probably has their own in house cnc tools, or a shop they work closely with on a regular basis, it wouldn't cost much to crank out a batch of pistons.


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

Bikesair said:


> Actually, ya, they do: http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/5th element speed sensitive conversion.htm
> 
> Just noting the price difference for almost the exact same tuning...


Just got to love the anodizing to help reduce friction that Avalanche does not do but CR1 does! If you race motocross ever you might know about that!


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

I have race and tested motocross bikes for magazines and for Honda, the fact is the cartridge designed by CR1 is basically what the factory riders are using in their fork and if you look closely to their top caps you will notice two bleeder valves one is for the Nitrogen charge. I have tested stock suspension, revalved, and Pro Circuits Team suspension and that fact is what CR1 one is doing is Motocross technology but beyond what you buy stock it's what is in the factory bikes that the cartrige is designed after. Now for the people out there that question the cartridge thats fine and do so because the guys with the cartridge will pass by you with laughter as you sit there trying to get your fork to feel plush and soak up the harsh hits at the same time.


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

And to Thuran correct CR1's parent company is Cortina who they have had the likes of Sam Hill and Duncan Riffle race their bikes. Not to mention Adrian has Raced against Greg Minnar and Fabien Barel, etc. So I would put my hard earned money into a guy who is Walking Engineer Genius who is self tought and his older brother Esteban Cortina developed the first downhill bike with a linkage system with 8" of travel and it's a hunch that Tomac mocked up one of their bikes after one of Cortina's designs. But the fact is that yes CR1 has branched away from Cortina and is CR1 solely for the purpose to bring the best technology to the mountain bike community and if that means you have to pay a higher price well that's usually that way the old saying goes "You get what you pay for" so I will be and have been never unsatsified by their work and I have even sent it back because it was a little to harsh and Adrian revalved it for free and paid for the shipping and handling. So I'm guessing they care about their riders who ever they are and how ever fast they are, they just want you to have the best suspension possible!


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

Big Hit you nailed it right on the head! I'm pushing CR1 here because I had an avalanche on my bike and had Adrian redo a swinger six way with the works and, not that the avalanche was a bad shock he revalved that for me too before I went with his suggestion and bought a new shock ebay for 100 dollars and had him gut it and put his piston in and valve body, custom bumper and I could not be happier. All of the suspension companies out there are good at what they do Avalanche, Push and CR1 it's all in a matter of preference and personal opinion. So not bashing any other company out their, I just have had great luck with CR1 and they have treated me well. By the way I have the cartridge in my 08 Boxxer Team. Rode it stock, then had Adrian revalve it but it was a bit on the stiff side so he said send it back and he revalved it for free. I finally bit the bullet and had some extra cash around and bought the cartridge. All I can say is that the stock cartridge is now being used as fire pit stirrer, it's super plush and when I used to clench up thinking it was too soft to soak up a hard hit it just plowed through like I hit nothing. So again you won't believe it until you ride it!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Point wasn't if they make good stuff or not, the point was that there stuff is more than 150% more expensive than comparable stuff. Look at Avalanche's cartridge and tell me if there's anything worth an extra $200 on the CR1?


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## ccspecialized (Dec 30, 2008)

wade776 said:


> Just got to love the anodizing to help reduce friction that Avalanche does not do but CR1 does! If you race motocross ever you might know about that!


Anodizing reduces friction after it's been sealed properly, but it makes the surface of the metal more brittle under heat. The main advantage of anodizing (outside of electronics) is the ability to color the metal


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

AL29er said:


> Too funny. I have gone round and round with him on my 5th upgrade. He is very set on his way being the way to do it. But he has a lot of time in the development of his way, so if you set to his recommendations it usually is bang-on.
> 
> I ran across the CR1 site before. Their stuff looks good. But IMO/IME throwing $300 at a 5th Element or a Swinger is just plain dumb. They do have several "upgrades" over the AVA work, but seem to ignore the reservoir end of things. I think AVA kit still uses the stock piston, just converts it to a shimmed setup. Better or worse?


I agree with DHIDIOT. Me and my buddy have taken about 2 different avy DHS's tuned for 2 different bikes in the past 48 hours. The shocks are amazing. Insanely easy to rebuild, tune, bleed, etc. By far, without question, no doubt, the best build/constuction/design quality of any MTB shocks, roco, DHX, CCDB, whatever, the best. BUT the tune's are retarded. When I through it on my bike, with the rebound knob backed out, with 2.5 wt oil (less than stock I believe?) the thing would barely rebound. Had to take out 3-4 shims in the rebound stack. Same with my buddy's DHX that was tuned for a DHR. Craig needs to learn that although MTB shocks need the build/design quality of moto stuff, they do NOT need the same tunes. Once we get these 2 shocks dialed, they are going to be godlike though. Thank god they are SOOOOO easy to work on. The idea of all you people paying hundreds of dollars to get people to do these "custom tuning" packages is a joke. Granted, I've talked to several people in the past month who are very stoked on their cortinas, but.....just buy an avy and tune it yourself. Might take 5-6 rides/rebuilds to get it good enough for me, but I'm no pro-racer or anything. If these CR1 products were the exact moto copies that you claim, they'd be VERY easy to rebuild/work on without sending them to the pro technicians, which doesn't sound like it's the case.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Wade776 - seriously, quit while you're behind. We all understand you have a hard-on for Cortina stuff. Sounds like you work for CR1 honestly.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Gemini2k05 said:


> When I through it on my bike, with the rebound knob backed out, with 2.5 wt oil (less than stock I believe?) the thing would barely rebound. Had to take out 3-4 shims in the rebound stack. Same with my buddy's DHX that was tuned for a DHR. Craig needs to learn that although MTB shocks need the build/design quality of moto stuff, they do NOT need the same tunes. Once we get these 2 shocks dialed, they are going to be godlike though.


I sure hope you know what you are doing. Quality shocks like the Avalanche and others feel "slow" when you are pushing down on them in the parking lot and sitting on the bike in a static enviroment. That's because you can't make the high-speed circut work without a true high-speed input. On the trail this "slow" feeling is gone when you get in the rough choppy stuff, especially as you go faster in said rough stuff. Trying to make the shock feel "fast" is probably going to allow the high-speed rebound circut to be overwhelmed and also kill your low-speed rebound. Good luck.

The rebound range on an avalanche shock isn't huge either, it's a usefull range rather than one that will go super-slow or super-fast. If it is at these extremes then it was not tuned correctly, but that is rare unless the shock is from a different bike/rider.

I got my hands on an early DHS for cheap, but it was at least 5 years old with whatever tune it had for the bike it was on, bottom line was that it didn't work on my bike for crap, high speed damping was way too light, etc. I got it rebuilt and revalved and it's night and day. If you're using a DHS from another rider/bike then it's obviously not going to be set up, these are custom-tuned shock and with more specific tunes they are going to suck more than the average shock when used outside of the intended bike/rider.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I sure hope you know what you are doing.


Oh we know what we're doing, or at least think we do, which is all that counts in the MTB world it seems.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Gemini2k05 said:


> Oh we know what we're doing, or at least think we do, which is all that counts in the MTB world it seems.


Well, that's fine then. Like I said it makes perfect sense that an avalanche set up for a specific rider and bike would "suck" in different conditions. If you know how to dissasemble and assemble and modify it then more power to you. You might even be able to order parts (like bottom-out bumper, resevior bladder, etc) "ala carte" due to the fact that Craig is going to be selling kits so people can build and modify their own shocks. It's a pretty cool program for those that like to tinker, but oviously the people buying it need to know what they are doing.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Well, that's fine then. Like I said it makes perfect sense that an avalanche set up for a specific rider and bike would "suck" in different conditions. If you know how to dissasemble and assemble and modify it then more power to you. You might even be able to order parts (like bottom-out bumper, resevior bladder, etc) "ala carte" due to the fact that Craig is going to be selling kits so people can build and modify their own shocks. It's a pretty cool program for those that like to tinker, but oviously the people buying it need to know what they are doing.


Ya that is a cool idea that he's letting people REALLY tune the sh*t out of their shocks. I'll probably just stick to the shim setup. I don't have the need/desire/patience/ to go beyond that.


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

Well Dhidiot quiting while behind would be just what people want in this industry No Copetitition for the other suspension companies to strive to build better products. Yes over the time of riding DH and having Adrian tune my suspension I have become close to him and see what he has in the works for the future for mountain bike suspension. It is going to be the closest thing to motocross suspension you can get! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I just know what feels good and what doesn't and he's never let me down. So yes maybe I'm biased, but competition is good other wise we would all be riding old style moto's and bikes if it was not for someone sticking their neck out to try something different!


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## ccspecialized (Dec 30, 2008)

Why should moto suspension and bike suspension be the same? Why is the argument always "this one is better because it's more like a moto?" A downhill bike and a motorcycle do completely different things; one being leg driven and the other being motor driven. A Downhill bike race is fundamentally different than a motorcycle race, the only things that are the same are 2 wheels and you're trying to be the fastest. 
Race moto if you want moto suspension. If you want to advance mountain bike suspension, don't claim moto as your goal.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ccspecialized said:


> Why should moto suspension and bike suspension be the same? Why is the argument always "this one is better because it's more like a moto?" A downhill bike and a motorcycle do completely different things; one being leg driven and the other being motor driven. A Downhill bike race is fundamentally different than a motorcycle race, the only things that are the same are 2 wheels and you're trying to be the fastest.
> Race moto if you want moto suspension. If you want to advance mountain bike suspension, don't claim moto as your goal.


Because the same basic principles apply, and improvements and advances in one discipline can usually be applied to another, again due to how similer they are. Both encounter bumps, both encounter high and low shaft speeds. Both need damping control. In some cases, both see very similer terrain. What you're saying is akin to: "well, why should cars have shocks with reserviors and pistons, it's completely different than dirt bikes!", but they do, because again, they see bumps, low shaft speed inputs, high speed inputs, and so on. Some of the advances in cars can't be applied to bikes due to complexity and weight, but a lot of the time advances in one area can be applied to other disciplines. I guess you are happy with a 2001 boxxer, old marzocchi SSV/HSCV cartridge damper and so on, but there is far better stuff out there and much that can be applied from other disciplines to mountain biking...


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## ccspecialized (Dec 30, 2008)

I was commenting on how some people in this thread seem to be aspiring to motorcycle suspension for bikes. Advancement and adaptation of technology is different than trying to replicate something in a different discipline. I agree that we can adapt moto technology to bicycle suspension but I don't agree that bicycle suspension needs to be "the closest thing to motorcross suspension you can get"


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

ccspecialized said:


> I was commenting on how some people in this thread seem to be aspiring to motorcycle suspension for bikes. Advancement and adaptation of technology is different than trying to replicate something in a different discipline. I agree that we can adapt moto technology to bicycle suspension but I don't agree that bicycle suspension needs to be "the closest thing to motorcross suspension you can get"


Yeah, obviously Motorcycle suspension companies have 20 times more money than MTB suspension companies, and sure they have a lot of engineers working to make things better, but the technology should only be used as a base, not just scale it and say: hey this shock is the same as a moto shock but smaller. Cyclist care about small bump compliance and certain suspension aspects that you can't feel, or don't care in a motorcycle.

It's not like someone on a 200 lb motorcycle going to complain about how their shock feels on some 3 inch rocks, but people on 20-40 lbs bicycles are probably sensitive to such small features on the terrain. I've seen the Podium RC4 internals (moto shock) and it is quite centered on bottom out resistance, while MTB shocks are centered on adjustability and all around performance.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

tacubaya said:


> It's not like someone on a 200 lb motorcycle going to complain about how their shock feels on some 3 inch rocks, but people on 20-40 lbs bicycles are probably sensitive to such small features on the terrain. I've seen the Podium RC4 internals (moto shock) and it is quite centered on bottom out resistance, while MTB shocks are centered on adjustability and all around performance.


You sure about that? How about some input from moto riders?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I have a bunch of friends who ride Enduro and Supercross and that's what they've told me when we've chatted about suspension on bikes. I've myself ridden Enduro and I feel the importance of a properly setup suspension on g-outs, repeated bumps and stuff like that, tires and the weight of the bike tend to take care of the small stuff.


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

*Very good point!*

Jayhem, you put that into a very good way of seeing things so people can understand the advacement of suspension. Just like a trophy truck using shocks that are base off of motocross shocks. Your very correct it may not be the same sport but the fact is suspension is to do one thing and that's to soak up the bumps you hit but to also try to accomplish that with it also feeling as plush as possible and Rebound so that when you hit that bump you don't bounce into the air because you have nothing to slow or speed up the uncompressed suspension. It's a fine balance, and an even finer balance of understanding what the suspension is doing by the feel of riding the bike! But very good way of explaining why all companies that tune suspension are trying to get closer and closer to that point!


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## General Havoc (Mar 28, 2007)

So lets say you send a Swinger 4-way to CR1 Engineering and they replace the SPV with a shim-stack setup.

Where is the tuning info? 

How does the air pressure affect/effect the ride? (in the SPV this was mostly low-speed compression if I remember right)

How does the chamber size (boost chamber) affect/effect the ride? (in the SPV this was bottom-out if I remember right)

I can't seem to affect/effect the rebound no matter how much I twist/adjust the knob and it is very very stiff, any info on how this might change the ride? (I can't seem to change the speed of rebound no matter how much I change the settings)

Any info from Adrian on this stuff?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

General Havoc said:


> So lets say you send a Swinger 4-way to CR1 Engineering and they replace the SPV with a shim-stack setup.
> 
> Where is the tuning info?
> 
> ...


SPV air pressure is not really low-speed compression, it's a force that has to be overcome for ANY bump, regardless of the shaft speed. This is why it tends to be pretty harsh overall, not just at low speeds. It also kind of means the intial "bump" is transfered to the rider before the shock starts working as much as it should.

Sometimes tuners will make it so you can't adjust things like the air pressure and air-chamber volume, because they don't really have any positive effect, but the effect would still be the same if you could adjust it, more air-pressure is going to create more resistance to movement, not as bad as when you had the SPV internals in there, but the purpose is to prevent cavitation, and any more air pressure than that is probably not going to help. The size of the air chamber will affect the progressiveness, this also has a much greater effect with the SPV internals, and not so much with the non-SPV internals. While you will get some ramp up adjustability if you adjust the chamber, without the SPV valves providing more position sensitive damping it won't be much. This is why when you get your shock modified by Push or someone else it is usually recommended that you keep these settings and don't modify them much, as they will usually be set pretty optimally.

One of the traits of high-end shocks is that they usually have spererate low and high speed rebound circuts. This means that even if you back off the rebound adjuster ALL the way, it will still feel "slow", it's only during high-speed impacts that it will react very fast, which is what you want, but this can drive people crazy when they first experience it. So even if you get your shock modified, you may still find the rebound to be set to what you think is a "too slow" setting. The Swinger/5th element shocks do have a very slow rebound top-out circut, so it always makes the initial rebound VERY slow, so again, you can turn the dials all you want, but you're really only affecting the rebound within the stroke, not at the end of the stroke, which is what you are going to feel more if you're just adjusting it and pushing down on it in the garage or riding it around a parking lot.

Due to the fact that CR1 guts the shock and replaces the internals, yes, the super-slow rebound circut at the top of travel would be gone, but you may still think it seems over-damped due to the different circuts. You also may simply still have too much high-speed rebound damping, which can only be changed by removing or re-valving the high speed rebound circut (which CR1 will also do).


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## Motoxpro (Sep 10, 2004)

People need to stop talking about how these things are made and whats in them. There is no "perfect" setup, if youre racing you have to adjust your suspension for EVERY track you go to because there is no way for it to work to the best of its abillity being set on one setting. I'd say more than 80% of people dont even know what the knobs on their suspension can really accomplish. Sure they know that compression controls the stiffness and the rebound controls how fast it comes up, but any time someone says their suspension is "bad" and I ask them what its doing all I get is "it doesnt feel good through the bumps and turns." Come on. Where are you bottoming out at? Is it sitting into the corners well? If not, where is it coming up at? How does it feel at the beginning of a rough section compared to the end?

Seems like all people care about is how well their bike jumps when almost all DH race courses have pretty much no jumps on them, and even if they did you dont set your bike up for them. It's much easier to get used to jumping a bike with no rebound or soft forks then it is to get used to coming down a steep rocky section with a bike setup "so it jumps well"

If you know what everything does and you still need something, and you know what that something is, THEN go get your suspension revalved. Some one said this earlier but its true. These are the people who benefit from the work Adrian and people like him do, not the people that send it in and say "make it better." Someone that gets on sam hills bike or james stewarts is probably going to think its terrible because theyre not going fast enough to even use what they have. Also mtb suspension is nowhere near motocross suspension, you guys are dreaming.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Gemini2k05 said:


> What will revolutionize suspension is when companies just flat out copy moto designs. Much like the avy DHS shock. They need to stop half-assing stuff.


While I agree with you to a point, there are major differences between Moto and DH requirements from the shock. For the most part, as a rider we weight 4-5 times what the bike weighs in DH, and usually less than the Moto weighs. HUGE difference in what is needed from suspension when we can throw a DH bike around like a rag doll compared. We need the least amount of internal friction possible, and using huge shafts/seals off a Moto is not the best way to reduce fiction. Also, you are saying the Avalanche DHS is close to a moto shock, but moto shocks have not used remote reservoirs in YEARS. Put a smaller shaft, and a biggyback reservoir on that shock and it's more like a small "proportioned to us" Moto-shock.. Oh wait.... 

Also, if you are going to use a remote reservoir, the hose should have a large ID and be as short as possible to reduce/prevent fluid friction, _especially_ if using a large diam shaft. Most Avalanche shocks I've seen used neither.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

tacubaya said:


> I have a bunch of friends who ride Enduro and Supercross and that's what they've told me when we've chatted about suspension on bikes. I've myself ridden Enduro and I feel the importance of a properly setup suspension on g-outs, repeated bumps and stuff like that, tires and the weight of the bike tend to take care of the small stuff.


In Motocross we want it all too. You want as much small bump control to reduce rider fatigue and keep the tires on the ground(traction), while resisting the big hits at the same time. Motocross suspension is great, but the same battles exist trying to "have it all". Tires take care of the tiny 1" and less square edge bumps in motocross, but not for us here. This is why the least internal/fluid friction you can have is key.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Motoxpro said:


> Also mtb suspension is nowhere near motocross suspension, you guys are dreaming.


I would agree with you, but only because in DH we feel more with the less weight to override the friction. Also, we need less out of the suspension, being less progressive as we can control the vehicle more, so in a way I think DH suspension is better than moto, when it comes to performance.

I would much rather hit some steep nasty technical rocky section on my DH bike than my Moto. The DH bike can suck stuff up the Moto would be launching me off.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thuren said:


> While I agree with you to a point, there are major differences between Moto and DH requirements from the shock. For the most part, as a rider we weight 4-5 times what the bike weighs in DH, and usually less than the Moto weighs. HUGE difference in what is needed from suspension when we can throw a DH bike around like a rag doll compared. We need the least amount of internal friction possible, and using huge shafts/seals off a Moto is not the best way to reduce fiction. Also, you are saying the Avalanche DHS is close to a moto shock, but moto shocks have not used remote reservoirs in YEARS. Put a smaller shaft, and a biggyback reservoir on that shock and it's more like a small "proportioned to us" Moto-shock.. Oh wait....
> 
> Also, if you are going to use a remote reservoir, the hose should have a large ID and be as short as possible to reduce/prevent fluid friction, _especially_ if using a large diam shaft. Most Avalanche shocks I've seen used neither.


Just because the Avalanche uses off-the-shelf parts doesn't mean it's "moto-sized", it does not have a shaft as big as a full-on moto shock, it's not the shock off of a 250, not even close. I don't know if you know this, but there are such things as "50cc" dirt-bikes with much smaller parts (seals, shafts, etc). The shaft and seals are not "huge", they were "huge" when compared to the old Vanilla RC shocks of 8 years ago, but that day has passed and everyone from RS to Fox is using a bigger diameter shaft (bigger piston) with a bigger ID/OD spring. The Vivid springs in fact fit my Avalanche shocks. Yes, they are a bit bigger than before, but not "huge", and I really question if you've actually seen a moto shock before if you're claiming that an avalanche shock is even close to the size of a moto shock.

The remote reservior is for bikes that do not have enough room for the/a piggyback shock, so obviously the hose length comes in different lengths to accomidate this. That's also why avalanche has the Chubbie and Woodie shocks, with piggyback reserviors.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Just because the Avalanche uses off-the-shelf parts doesn't mean it's "moto-sized", it does not have a shaft as big as a full-on moto shock, it's not the shock off of a 250, not even close. I don't know if you know this, but there are such things as "50cc" dirt-bikes with much smaller parts (seals, shafts, etc). The shaft and seals are not "huge", they were "huge" when compared to the old Vanilla RC shocks of 8 years ago, but that day has passed and everyone from RS to Fox is using a bigger diameter shaft (bigger piston) with a bigger ID/OD spring. The Vivid springs in fact fit my Avalanche shocks. Yes, they are a bit bigger than before, but not "huge", and I really question if you've actually seen a moto shock before if you're claiming that an avalanche shock is even close to the size of a moto shock.


You caught me. I thought 250's were the only size motorcycles they make lol! :thumbsup: 

I guess I should have said that a bigger Moto seal may not be the best for us, with the extra friction "in general". I never said the Avalanche "shock" was the same size as a Moto shock. Where's you get that?



Jayem said:


> The remote reservior is for bikes that do not have enough room for the/a piggyback shock, so obviously the hose length comes in different lengths to accomidate this. That's also why avalanche has the Chubbie and Woodie shocks, with piggyback reserviors.


I know that, but the DHS was referred to as close to a Moto shock, and the restrictive small reservoir hose is far from it. Just clarifying.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

ccspecialized said:


> I was commenting on how some people in this thread seem to be aspiring to motorcycle suspension for bikes. Advancement and adaptation of technology is different than trying to replicate something in a different discipline. I agree that we can adapt moto technology to bicycle suspension but I don't agree that bicycle suspension needs to be "the closest thing to motorcross suspension you can get"


Having a background in both sports, I agree 100%. You are not trying to accomplish the exact same thing.


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

“This is no ordinary bike. Ordinary is boring.”

"Empire Cycles’ AP-1 is the result of sweat, scuffed knuckles, endless late nights in the lab and many a long weekend pounding the trails, pushing the cast aluminium frame and its unconventional yet high-performance design to its absolute limits. 

The AP-1 is the product of two MTB riders’ vision. It was their drive and ambition, their stance against conformist design and perceived wisdom, that saw the project take off. Designer Chris Williams and his experienced industry partner started with a blank sheet of paper and asked themselves one question: how can we make the best downhill mountain bike in the world?

This single piece of engineering perfection, which borrows state-of-the-art sand casting technology from the likes of Aston Martin and fundamental design elements from the world of motocross, is set to revolutionise the MTB industry. This is no ordinary bike. Ordinary is boring. This is exceptional. Inspired. Cutting edge. Welcome to the future. The future is now. The future is Empire Cycles’ AP-1. "


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Its good to see others getting into the market place theres room for more and the quality will dictate wether they are good or not.
Craig (Avalanche) has been around because his stuff works, granted it has bikes (high leverage ratios) it works better on but it works and yeah LOL dont tell Craig his job  Let him do what he does and explain what you want. HE will get it in hte ball park and you can adjust from there.

Either way good for CR1 its good to see new faces and look forward to seeing innovations from all companies so our sport keeps moving forward!


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## bullitsc (Feb 17, 2009)

nice advert.


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

wade776 said:


> to its absolute limits.
> 
> The AP-1 is the product of two MTB riders' vision. It was their drive and ambition, their stance against conformist design and perceived wisdom, Designer Chris Williams and his experienced industry partner started with a blank sheet of paper and asked themselves one question: how can we make the best downhill mountain bike in the world? "


Copy the RN-01 minus the gear box! LOL :thumbsup:

I think its a cool bike Im not sold on casting frames but the Ibeam mold seems it would releive some of the side to side, up and down cyclic load. I did NDT II radiography, UT, UT sheerwave, vis, dye, mag etc.. As well as used to work with manufacturers in different industries while doing parts specs anodizing and mil spec for military, aerospace and although cast is brittle by nature and porosity or granular structure it would be intresting to see why its different then other processes.

I LIKE the Empire frame I think its thinking outside the box and would love to see it perform really well as well as hold iuts own. Its a cool concept! :thumbsup:


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

I copy and pasted the info from Empires website. Recently saw one at a race we went to and although not sure about the casting the bike looked amazing and I have read some good reviews on it! The only reason I posted it is for the fact that people ask why does DH need moto technology well the same thing would have to be asked because four stroke motocross bikes got most of their engine tech from the street bike side. Their is always room for improvement and it's good to see people taking small steps or some of them taking huge leaps to try to improve bike frames, and suspension because that's what seperates each bike since we don't have a motor to get us off the line faster. It's was also just to show a statement about the fact we can learn from many other facets of motorsports for technology just on a smaller scale!


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> CR1 is Cortina.


can you say fire....look at that OCTOPUS


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

wade776 said:


> I copy and pasted the info from Empires website. Recently saw one at a race we went to and although not sure about the casting the bike looked amazing and I have read some good reviews on it! The only reason I posted it is for the fact that people ask why does DH need moto technology well the same thing would have to be asked because four stroke motocross bikes got most of their engine tech from the street bike side. Their is always room for improvement and it's good to see people taking small steps or some of them taking huge leaps to try to improve bike frames, and suspension because that's what seperates each bike since we don't have a motor to get us off the line faster. It's was also just to show a statement about the fact we can learn from many other facets of motorsports for technology just on a smaller scale!


Yeah dont take me too serious I do have my background in NDT and metals as well as CWI but I agree the bike looks killer and although Om skeptical about cast I do fully agree with the whole new technology and innovations.
Ive seen GSXR sub frames cracked and they are alot bigger than a empire the 05s needed a brace to correct an issue where stress risers were too much.

But yeah thats a prime example of why we need technology to crossover from other arenas, if it didint we'd all be pimping schwin cruisers still!


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

Exactly Bullcrew, we would be riding down trails with 4" of front travel and on a hardtail like Tomac did back in the day, then you had Palmer come out and now everybody rides with motocross inspired pants, shorts, jerseys etc. Every sport can learn from other areas of technology if they let their eye's open and see the possibilties! Sometimes progression may take you a step backwards but eventually you get that step back and another forward. R&D!


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## moto776 (Jan 8, 2010)

*Motocross forks!*



Jayem said:


> Err, the 01 boxxers were hydracoil models, essentially pumping-rod setups, as well as the 1998, 1999 (which I had) 2000, 2002, 2003 and 2004. I'm not sure when they changed to the motion-control (2004 or 5?), but THAT was a baby-step in between a real shimmed-setup. I'll say though that the marzocchi cartridges, as crude as they were, worked far better than those old boxxers. Marzocchi at least "started" a little more ahead of the game with their cartridge dampers, whereas the Boxxer was just a train-wreck until it got motion-control, and it was still far-behind in terms of chassi at that point.
> 
> In the big picture, I agree with you. These companies are just screwing around with half-ass attempts, and while I put the "cartridge" far ahead of the old pumping rod boxxer, I am also realizing how far behind BOTH of them were. Making the crude HSCV cartridge bombers from 1998 to 2009 was a travesty (RC2 and RC3 are pretty much the same thing), and making the pumping-rod boxxer from 1998-2004 was also a travesty.


DHidiot- the forks that you are buying on your stock motocross bike are just what you explained. But the fact it that's not what the factory riders are using and every piece of metal inside is polished, hard anodized or DLC for a reason. not what your riding. Same thing goes with the Fox 40's that the Athertons are riding you really thing that the fork you buy from your dealer has the same internals that they are riding with. That's why their are companies out there like Avalanche, Push, CR1 that are trying to push the envelope to help the racers who can't get their hands on those products the closest thing to it.:thumbsup:


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