# The Rise of the Machines?



## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

The increase in ebike purchasing and riding has forced us into a discussion of trail use not unlike the discussion of fly fishing vs. spin fishing or dirtbikes vs. atvs or hikers vs. all terrain bicycles. An argument that has no winners.
Them vs. us.
Divide and conquer.
I truly believe, if you are a douce-bag on a analog bike, you will be a douce-bag on an ebike.


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## jcavicchi (Aug 31, 2021)

Not only do those arguments have no winners, they cause us all to be losers:


They limit effective cooperation between user groups on things like trail maintenance, land preservation, and advocacy.
They effectively encourage banned user groups to act irresponsibly (riding where they are not allowed, jumping fences, cutting illegal trails, etc.).
They make it harder to educate all user groups on proper trail etiquette and maintenance.
They give the upper hand to developers and resource-extraction companies. Much easier to buy land and build houses on it when recreational users are divided and fighting amongst each other.
I'd rather share well-maintained, well-marked, and well-built trails with other user groups any day than see my local riding area turned into yet another suburban development.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

i have two kind and amazing peeps who ride ebikes because of health (heart) problems. remove the jerk from the trails and problems will be solved.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

The infighting within the biking community isn't doing anyone any good.....


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

I am an advocate for my local trails and legally ebikes are not allowed. Ebikers do trail work they even help with group rides but I can't get a flipping soul to advocate with the local land manager to change the language which is fine for the short term. Long term not so much we are running off class two and threes and straight up e-motos when we find them because if they start causing issues they will enforce the ban on all ebikes. Don't like the rules do what mtb riders did, advocate take work time off attend meetings. Don't even get me started on these barefoot, helmetless, vapping one wheel guys blasting music on the trail...


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Just around the corner...riderless ebikes!


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Weinerts said:


> i have two kind and amazing peeps who ride ebikes because of health (heart) problems. remove the jerk from the trails and problems will be solved.


I ride on the road with some people who are out there on e bikes just for the social aspect. They have health conditions so they definitely need the assistance provided by an ebike. It took one lady from the back of the group and being miserable on most rides to having a great time as long as the battery doesn't die. It has completely changed her experience.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

Too many people fall victim to marketing. Now people actually think you need a motor on a freaking bicycle... I guess the fact that most people are fat and out of shape because of our horrible processed food situation isn't helping anything.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Seems to me that the ebike argument is just way overblown online, like most things these days. I’ve literally never seen a single ebike argument or confrontation on the trail. I’m sure there are plenty of people that don’t like ebikes who scream pretty loudly about it on the internet, but don’t really care when they see one actually ride by out on the trail. They certainly wouldn’t get confrontational about it.

I wouldn’t own an ebike if it was the last bike on earth, but when I see one out on the trail I don’t even think twice about it. Personally I think people should follow the rules and not ride them where they aren’t allowed, but it doesn’t do me any good to get worked up about it because people are going to do what they want and there’s nothing I can do about it.


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## jcavicchi (Aug 31, 2021)

GKelley said:


> Too many people fall victim to marketing. Now people actually think you need a motor on a freaking bicycle... I guess the fact that most people are fat and out of shape because of our horrible processed food situation isn't helping anything.


Don't judge until you try.

As an ex-enduro (motorcycle) rider I can't tell you how many times I had mountain bikers tell me it must be so easy to ride with an engine.

Ha!

Never, ever have I been as tired from riding my mountain bike as I have at the end of a 60 mile enduro raced on my 450.

This is not about who is lazy and who is not. It is about bringing together all users to work as one to maintain and preserve trail access, and to get as many people outdoors and away from screens as possible.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

GKelley said:


> Too many people fall victim to marketing. Now people actually think you need a motor on a freaking bicycle... I guess the fact that most people are fat and out of shape because of our horrible processed food situation isn't helping anything.


I guess people fell for the marketing that they need suspension and gears too.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

Bacon Fat said:


> I guess people fell for the marketing that they need suspension and gears too.


You sound like their target demographic.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

It's "douce-bag" that does it for me.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Bacon Fat said:


> Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.


I find this statement to be profound.
=sParty


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

GKelley said:


> You sound like their target demographic.


Hell yeah I am. If a company is selling a bike that will add to my riding experience, I am interested. Ebike....sign me up. SS Rigid... oh yeah. FS trail bike.... sold. Gravel bike..... I'll give it a spin. Fat bike.. need it.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> I find this statement to be profound.
> =sParty


Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.

This is a sad truth to todays state of affairs....


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## Nosdeho (Jun 16, 2021)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Seems to me that the ebike argument is just way overblown online, like most things these days. I’ve literally never seen a single ebike argument or confrontation on the trail. I’m sure there are plenty of people that don’t like ebikes who scream pretty loudly about it on the internet, but don’t really care when they see one actually ride by out on the trail. They certainly wouldn’t get confrontational about it.
> 
> I wouldn’t own an ebike if it was the last bike on earth, but when I see one out on the trail I don’t even think twice about it. Personally I think people should follow the rules and not ride them where they aren’t allowed, but it doesn’t do me any good to get worked up about it because people are going to do what they want and there’s nothing I can do about it.


Worst confrontations I have seen are ebikers pushing normal riders or beginners when they don't get over to pass. Other then that beside a crotchty old guy I have noticed ebike lines by the speed guys 20mph taking corners wider. Some of the old xc racers have been complaining about this. They use a moto skill hitting the brake and pedalling hard thru corners modulating control with harder casing tires. In saying that some of the xc speedsters take the same lines but that braking and pedalling definitely cause more wear. I don't mind as long as they get off their bike and build trail to both conditions.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

Bacon Fat said:


> Hell yeah I am.


I wouldn't exaclty be proud of that. But to each their own I guess... Atleast the marketers love ya.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

1spd1way said:


> The increase in ebike purchasing and riding has forced us into a discussion of trail use not unlike the discussion of fly fishing vs. spin fishing or dirtbikes vs. atvs or hikers vs. all terrain bicycles. An argument that has no winners.
> Them vs. us.
> Divide and conquer.
> I truly believe, if you are a douce-bag on a analog bike, you will be a douce-bag on an ebike.


Well said. The majority of new rider are ebikers these days. New riders that haven't learned the etiquette on the trails that we all learned or were taught. We are best served to try and educate these people so that we can share the trails and have no negative consequences of ebikers and mtb riders being lumped together.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

As long as you're not giving anti-access groups ammunition, I don't care. Unfortunately, from the posts here, I am pretty sure that's not always the case.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

GKelley said:


> Now people actually think you need a motor on a freaking bicycle...


You've managed to compile several hostile & quite possibly inaccurate conclusions into one dubious summary statement that reveals more about your prejudices than it does about reality.
=sParty


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

Here we go with the.... My best friends cousin's next door neighbor's uncle saw an ebiker speed past someone and didn't wave.....That equals all ebikers are douches!


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

GKelley said:


> I wouldn't exaclty be proud of that. But to each their own I guess... Atleast the marketers love ya.


I mean… what do you ride? Aren’t you always posting in the fat bike forum? Fat bikes aren’t exactly the pinnacle of cycling purism. Do you REALLY need 4.6” tires, or did the marketing campaigns get you on that one? People used to ride snow on 2.0” tires. Why are you making snow riding easier by using big tires?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

CRM6 said:


> Here we go with the.... My best friends cousin's next door neighbor's uncle saw an ebiker speed past someone and didn't wave.....That equals all ebikers are douches!


If you're referring to my post... I've seen three eBikes in the wild. I have, however, seen self entitled posts here daily.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> If you're referring to my post... I've seen three eBikes in the wild. I have, however, seen self entitled posts here daily.


Don't flatter yourself..... All these ebike posts go down the same rabbit hole...


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

CRM6 said:


> Don't flatter yourself..... All these ebike posts go down the same rabbit hole...


I agree. But was clarifying. Basically, outside these forums I couldn't build an opinion. So perhaps, again we're our own worst enemies.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I mean… what do you ride? Aren’t you always posting in the fat bike forum? Fat bikes aren’t exactly the pinnacle of cycling purism. Do you REALLY need 4.6” tires, or did the marketing campaigns get you on that one? People used to ride snow on 2.0” tires. Why are you making snow riding easier by using big tires?


Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires! 

My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

GKelley said:


> Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires!
> 
> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


That's capitalism. Manufacturers will only make what sells.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> Well said. The majority of new rider are ebikers these days. New riders that haven't learned the etiquette on the trails that we all learned or were taught. We are best served to try and educate these people so that we can share the trails and have no negative consequences of ebikers and mtb riders being lumped together.


Do you have any studies that proves this or is this just your thought? Ebikes are not exactly cheap and if I were a noob, I doubt I would spend $6k or more on a good chance I may not like this sport/hobby.

I personally believe, majority of the ebike purchases are from the mountain bike community. As riders age or someone in the group bought an ebike, or mountain biker just wanting to have more fun or rider has an injury, etc... So many reasons why people are riding ebikes. 

Either way, the cat is out of the bag and there is literally no way to undo this. We just need to move forward, it would great to work together, as most ebikers, I bet still ride mtbs and emtbs or of course like me solely ride emtbs.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> I agree. But was clarifying. Basically, outside these forums I couldn't build an opinion. So perhaps, again we're our own worst enemies.


My feelings exactly..... The biking community has become its own worst enemy.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

GKelley said:


> Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires!
> 
> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Fair enough, but you’re bagging on people for pretty much everything that isn’t a penny-farthing. Just saying… your profile says you ride a plus bike. Maybe don’t make fun of other people for buying into marketing hype when you ride a plus bike…


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

CRM6 said:


> My feelings exactly..... The biking community has become its own worst enemy.


Same as it ever was....

It's not limited to biking btw, it's pretty much true of every access community.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

There is a another different angle to e-bikers. Many are new the the sport and having not spent years riding, do not know the etiquette and act like a-holes when running up upon others. Some just ride once in a while- same thing. I have seen some and those are the ones who people have a problem with. I have been riding MTBs for over 20 years and and friendly and polite on trails and yield as required. 

I ride my Ripley and my Levo SL basically the same way (the latter is a bit faster) and if trails are too crowd, I avoid them since I hate stopping two dozen times. I have seen ebikers rush up on others, ride off trail to pass up or down, and have a GTF out of-my-way attitude. Just one or two sour people to them. That happened to my friend too. What does he do now? He reports them on trails where they poach. Rangers do stop them at the trailhead when they return. So, mountain biker vs. e-mountain biker...the worst thing for e-bike access. 

I have no ideological stake in the game. I have encountered regular mtn bikers who are not exactly polite or have trail etiquette either, but very few in the last 20 years. I have encountered easily as similar e-bikers in just the last two years. It is the newbies we have the opportunity to (nicely) show/teach trail etiquette if possible.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

GKelley said:


> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


This train of thought is getting so old. Biking for many people is much more than just fitness! For me and I'm sure for many others, biking was about fun and the adventure, fitness was a bonus from biking. But, if you've never ridden an ebike, you'd probably think you can't get any fitness from them, you'd be wrong. Maybe try riding an ebike for a week, before passing judgement on a person's fitness.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> Fair enough, but you’re bagging on people for pretty much everything that isn’t a penny-farthing. Just saying… your profile says you ride a plus bike. Maybe don’t make fun of other people for buying into marketing hype when you ride a plus bike…


Still loving my plus tires. If I was concerned about trends, I would have put 29's on that bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

GKelley said:


> Biking is supposed to be about fitness.


And you were appointed to decide that by whom exactly?

I ride for fun. Always have, always will. Lots of other people do too. 
Not everyone is out there trying to win some imaginary 'Best Exerciser' trophy.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

GKelley said:


> Still loving my plus tires. If I was concerned about trends, I would have put 29's on that bike.


27.5+ = bicycle purism 
29 = marketing hype 

Got it.


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## GKelley (Sep 4, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> And you were appointed to decide that by whom exactly?
> 
> I ride for fun. Always have, always will. Lots of other people do too.
> Not everyone is out there trying to win some imaginary 'Best Exerciser' trophy.


That comment actually makes a lot of sense in our round belly society.


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## CRM6 (Apr 7, 2021)

GKelley said:


> Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires!
> 
> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Don't need a Corvette to commute to work,when a Smart car can do the same job? Come on man.....Are bike companies going to stop producing pedal only bikes? Ebikes aren't ruining the sport....People are....


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

dysfunction said:


> If you're referring to my post... I've seen three eBikes in the wild. I have, however, seen self entitled posts here daily.


It's true.
As both an ebiker and a mountain biker I find myself defending ebikes for what they are -- another tool for having fun on trails -- and shaking my head at any/all of my fellow ebikers who refuse to concede that ebikes are motorized.
Ebikers that can't -- or won't -- recognize the huge & clear distinction between these disparate two-wheeled contraptions confound me.
They're not the same, ebikes and bicycles.
And that's okay.
Just embrace rather than deny the difference -- the motor -- everything will be okay.
That and don't be a dick, whatever you choose to ride.
=sParty

P.S. Oh by the way -- IBTB


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Exactly. You know why I don't just keep riding on the AZT that's in a national park? Because bikes are banned, and doing so would give credence to the image that mountain bikers are a hazard to the wilderness. 

Is it true? Of course not, but that doesn't matter. It's just being responsible, instead of selfish.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

GKelley said:


> That comment actually makes a lot of sense in our round belly society.


Sounds like somebody really wants that imaginary trophy. 

30+ years I've been riding MTBs, and there's always some wanna-be hardo claiming their way is the only way.
How's your race results Mr Fitness?


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## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

GKelley said:


> Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires!
> 
> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Biking is supposed to be about fitness? Who made that rule? It CAN be about fitness. I've loved and ridden a bike most of my life, and it's very rarely been about fitness for me. I just like riding bikes. My wife wanted to start riding at the school last year so I would go and ride too. For her, it was counting laps and miles, but for me it was just riding around in circles with her. The fitness for me was secondary. 

I like to get in a comfortable gear and just pedal. I like to get out and see stuff and just keep my legs spinning. I don't like being worn out mid-ride or at the end of the ride. It's not about how fast I completed a lap or what my heart rate is. I live on some back roads and just want to get out in the afternoons and weekends and cruise around.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> 27.5+ = bicycle purism
> 29 = marketing hype
> 
> Got it.


Different riders like different things, of course. I have both. I prefer my 29er by far. 29 x 2.4 vs. 27.5 x 3.0. My friend likes his 27.5 x 3.0 6Fattie and claims he will not like 29ers but hasn't owned a 29er yet. However, 29ers just dominate the MTB scene here in Colorado at least.


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

I ride a manual bike right now because I like the exercise, but I'm getting older... When it reaches the point of e-bike or hang it up, I'll go e-bike.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

dysfunction said:


> ...... and doing so would give credence to the image that mountain bikers are a hazard to the wilderness.
> 
> Is it true? Of course not,


You're wrong there. 

And there's plenty of hard data proving as much. As bikes get people deeper into the woods, noiselessly and fast, biologists find that animals keep a much further distance from trails than if hikers are present. Similar data can be found for backcountry skiers who get further into the backcountry with the help of snowmobiles; e-snowmobiles will make the problem even worse. There's even a growing list of winter backcountry areas that off limits to access, as a result. As mechanized access gets us deeper and deeper into the wilderness, animals are forced further and further away from their habitats. That, apparently, is a fact. E-mtbs on singletrack are sure to exacerbate the problem.

Land managers will be forced into a reckoning: ban hunting or ban mechanized access, because they can't both live with wilderness.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

D. Inoobinati said:


> You're wrong there.
> 
> And there's plenty of hard data proving as much. As bikes get people deeper into the woods, noiselessly and fast, biologists find that animals keep a much further distance from trails than if hikers are present. Similar data can be found for backcountry skiers who get further into the backcountry with the help of snowmobiles; e-snowmobiles will make the problem even worse. There's even a growing list of winter backcountry areas that off limits to access, as a result. As mechanized access gets us deeper and deeper into the wilderness, animals are forced further and further away from their habitats. That, apparently, is a fact. E-mtbs on singletrack are sure to exacerbate the problem.
> 
> Land managers will be forced into a reckoning: ban hunting or ban mechanized access, because they can't both live with wilderness.


Shhhh

Flies, honey, etc.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> Do you have any studies that proves this or is this just your thought? Ebikes are not exactly cheap and if I were a noob, I doubt I would spend $6k or more on a good chance I may not like this sport/hobby.
> 
> I personally believe, majority of the ebike purchases are from the mountain bike community. As riders age or someone in the group bought an ebike, or mountain biker just wanting to have more fun or rider has an injury, etc... So many reasons why people are riding ebikes.
> 
> Either way, the cat is out of the bag and there is literally no way to undo this. We just need to move forward, it would great to work together, as most ebikers, I bet still ride mtbs and emtbs or of course like me solely ride emtbs.


I have the data from several local bike shops in one of the biggest markets in the country, southern california. Emtb sales are equal or greater then full suspension mountain bikes at this point. Most large shops are selling at a minimum, 50/50 emtb's vs mtb's. Many of the larger shops are 60% emtb's to mtbs as well from what I've been told. 

Around here, the choice seems to be easy for most people. You can either buy a mid to low tier full suspension mtb for 5k with nx eagle etc etc or you can spend 6k and get the one that helps you pedal to the top. It's been a perfect storm of new riders flooding to the hobby as of the pandemic, and bikes getting very expensive across the board, thus closing the gap in cost from mtb's to emtb's. 

I'm strictly speaking mountain bikes here because this is a mountain bike forum. The situation is even more extreme in commuter/hybrid bikes as well. The proliferation of 1,000 - 1,500 crap ebikes is impressive. 



D. Inoobinati said:


> You're wrong there.
> 
> And there's plenty of hard data proving as much. As bikes get people deeper into the woods, noiselessly and fast, biologists find that animals keep a much further distance from trails than if hikers are present. Similar data can be found for backcountry skiers who get further into the backcountry with the help of snowmobiles; e-snowmobiles will make the problem even worse. There's even a growing list of winter backcountry areas that off limits to access, as a result. As mechanized access gets us deeper and deeper into the wilderness, animals are forced further and further away from their habitats. That, apparently, is a fact. E-mtbs on singletrack are sure to exacerbate the problem.
> 
> Land managers will be forced into a reckoning: ban hunting or ban mechanized access, because they can't both live with wilderness.


While i think you're right about the impacts of humans intruding into natural areas... I don't agree that ebikers are really adding to this problem significantly. Ebikes don't generally give anyone more significant abilities then seasoned normal riders. Most ebikes, give a new rider a range of 30mi/5000' at max (there are bikes that do more and do less, we're talking averages here). So while there is some increased traffic... it's not as if there are now people with bikes that there were none before. 

I see the real issue as over development, overcrowding, population growth and reduced access to natural areas that are now more scarce. Adding new users to the system is going to cause strain across the board, and yes, it will threaten access... for all users. I do realize that you listed "mechanized" and in this case you're lumping emtb's and mtb's together... which I think is correct. That's the main reason I do not see shunning ebikers as a viable solution to mountain biker access. It may be a viable solution to other user groups and land managers... but I struggle to see a situation in which MTB users win and emtb users lose.


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## mdavenpo2000 (Jan 6, 2007)

1spd1way said:


> The increase in ebike purchasing and riding has forced us into a discussion of trail use not unlike the discussion of fly fishing vs. spin fishing or dirtbikes vs. atvs or hikers vs. all terrain bicycles. An argument that has no winners.
> Them vs. us.
> Divide and conquer.
> I truly believe, if you are a douce-bag on a analog bike, you will be a douce-bag on an ebike.


First of all, it’s “douche” not “douce”. 
Second, where I live and ride (the Bay Area) I run into very few douche bags on the trails. I ride both a muscle and an emtb. eMTB’s are gaining wider acceptance. The big holdouts are the douchebags at MidPen Open Space, but the scuttlebut is that they are leaning in towards making ebikes legal on their lands. 
Third, most douchebags I run into while riding are hikers on trails closed to bikes. Fourth, I guess that makes me a douchebag too. 😎


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Land managers will be forced into a reckoning: ban hunting or ban mechanized access, because they can't both live with wilderness.


It's far less likely to be hunting. With VERY valid reasons.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

minimusprime said:


> I have the data from several local bike shops in one of the biggest markets in the country, southern california. Emtb sales are equal or greater then full suspension mountain bikes at this point. Most large shops are selling at a minimum, 50/50 emtb's vs mtb's. Many of the larger shops are 60% emtb's to mtbs as well from what I've been told.
> 
> Around here, the choice seems to be easy for most people. You can either buy a mid to low tier full suspension mtb for 5k with nx eagle etc etc or you can spend 6k and get the one that helps you pedal to the top. It's been a perfect storm of new riders flooding to the hobby as of the pandemic, and bikes getting very expensive across the board, thus closing the gap in cost from mtb's to emtb's.
> 
> ...


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

minimusprime said:


> I have the data from several local bike shops in one of the biggest markets in the country, southern california. Emtb sales are equal or greater then full suspension mountain bikes at this point. Most large shops are selling at a minimum, 50/50 emtb's vs mtb's. Many of the larger shops are 60% emtb's to mtbs as well from what I've been told.
> 
> Around here, the choice seems to be easy for most people. You can either buy a mid to low tier full suspension mtb for 5k with nx eagle etc etc or you can spend 6k and get the one that helps you pedal to the top. It's been a perfect storm of new riders flooding to the hobby as of the pandemic, and bikes getting very expensive across the board, thus closing the gap in cost from mtb's to emtb's.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update! So at least in So Cal, e-bikes are out selling bikes. I believe Covid started most of these over crowding issues, as people started to explore the outdoors, like I've personally never seen before. It's unfortunate, that many of the places I've been riding for over 20yrs, have not expanded their parks/trails. Most places are virtually the same, with maybe a few add on trails, here and there. I know it's easier said then done, but over time, our parks should have seen the population growth and been expanding. I don't see a easy way out.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> Thanks for the update! So at least in So Cal, e-bikes are out selling bikes. I believe Covid started most of these over crowding issues, as people started to explore the outdoors, like I've personally never seen before. It's unfortunate, that many of the places I've been riding for over 20yrs, have not expanded their parks/trails. Most places are virtually the same, with maybe a few add on trails, here and there. I know it's easier said then done, but over time, our parks should have seen the population growth and been expanding. I don't see a easy way out.


I've seen a pretty significant reduction in people on the trails in the last.. 10 months or so. Pretty much back to what I would consider to be normal. That could be a regional thing, it could be where I go, it could be the times I ride...

Have you seen any reduction the covid-spike? I mean, I do get that people suddenly had fewer recreational options.. and some will have discovered that they really enjoy mountain biking and stay.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Exactly. You know why I don't just keep riding on the AZT that's in a national park? Because bikes are banned, and doing so would give credence to the image that mountain bikers are a hazard to the wilderness.
> 
> Is it true? Of course not, but that doesn't matter. It's just being responsible, instead of selfish.


Excellent post. Thank you.

And for everyone else:

Threads about trail access belong in the Trail Advocacy and Access forum, so this one was moved.

That last thread along these lines was essentially advocating for riding illegal trails in the hopes of making them legal - THAT IS A DIRECT VIOLATION of the site posting rules. Hence the thread was binned. MTBR does not advocate the riding of Illegal trails, eMTB or MTB. Please keep the discussion to ways in which to legalize them where they are not as opposite to the "ride-it until they legalize it" attitude many seem to have.


----------



## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Old man rage.

Stop calling mountain bikes an analog bikes! 

Stop it!

Its a mtb or e-bike.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

plummet said:


> Old man rage.
> 
> Stop calling mountain bikes an analog bikes!
> 
> ...


This isn't Dylan going electric, after all


----------



## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

1spd1way said:


> I truly believe, if you are a douce-bag on a analog bike, you will be a douce-bag on an ebike.


Yes but you have to work harder to be a "douce-bag" (is that like a sh!^-bag?) on a human powered bike. Like there are very few people capable of passing folks at 15-20mpg on a flat or gently uphill sloped trail. 

Another example is one of our local flow trails that all the eBikers have decided they want to ride up. Some human powered bikers do ride up this trail to train but they do it on off-peak times and there just aren't that many with the capability and willingness to do it. But if you go ride in on a weekend you'll have to yield to uphill ebikers 2-4 times. 

So those folks might decide to go trail climbing on a busy saturday afternoon with a human powered bike, but they'd have to earn it and that limits how often it happens.

It's honestly the same with commuting. I do see ebike commuters as a win over cars for sure, but we now have a bunch of folks who have not been commuting who are all of a sudden capable of maintaining a 20mph pace. That is causing some issues and we're going to have to sort through it.

I don't think we need to ban ebikes, but I don't know what the answer if for reaching people. The fact is a lot of folks just don't care. And that's not specific of ebikes, we have a big problem in the northwest with people riding fragile trails when they're wet. A couple local trails have had to be graveled over because of the damage. They were just the closest trails to the parking lot so the easiest for folks without fitness to access. I guess there is a concern that ebikes would open up access to trails farther out to those kinds of folks, but it's just in our nature to be selfish and entitled.


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Dogbrain said:


> Another example is one of our local flow trails that all the eBikers have decided they want to ride up. Some human powered bikers do ride up this trail to train but they do it on off-peak times and there just aren't that many with the capability and willingness to do it. But if you go ride in on a weekend you'll have to yield to uphill ebikers 2-4 times.
> 
> So those folks might decide to go trail climbing on a busy saturday afternoon with a human powered bike, but they'd have to earn it and that limits how often it happens.


Are the e-bike rider going up a trail that is down only? Or is it you just don't like them having fun doing something you don't like to do?

The whole "earn" it philosophy is ridiculous. You're not allowed to ride this trail how you want because you didn't put in enough physical effort.


----------



## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

jcavicchi said:


> Don't judge until you try.
> 
> As an ex-enduro (motorcycle) rider I can't tell you how many times I had mountain bikers tell me it must be so easy to ride with an engine.
> 
> ...


- what's your hear rate like during a moto enduro? have you raced bicycles?


----------



## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

Bacon Fat said:


> Are the e-bike rider going up a trail that is down only? Or is it you just don't like them having fun doing something you don't like to do?
> 
> The whole "earn" it philosophy is ridiculous. You're not allowed to ride this trail how you want because you didn't put in enough physical effort.


It's been defacto one-way because most folks can't ride up it, so it's a really sweet 3 mile descent that you could pretty regularly hit from end to end without stopping. Now you have to stop a few times because of ebikers climbing the trail. It's not about having to earn it to use the trail, it's about the way some people are using the trail is interfering with the way that a lot of other folks have historically used the trail. There's a delightful gravel road that most people use to get to the top. Super scenic because we live in Western Oregon. And you definitely "earn it" if you pedal up that road, so any feelings about using a motor to get to the top don't really come into play. I just wish they would follow the general flow of traffic and go up the road and down the trail.

The tech trails don't have this problem because none of the ebikers have the skills to go up them, even with the motor assist.

And I like trail climbing. I just do it on off-peak times and then I actually yield to downhill riders because I know they're having fun. It's a great opportunity to practice my uphill starts.

Edited to add: eBikes are not allowed in the area I am talking about. It explicitly states on the website that they are classified as motorized vehicles and not allowed anywhere in the forest, even on the gravel, but there is not enforcement and the local shops certainly don't tell them when they run their card. I actually think they should be able to ride out there, but I don't want to give up the flow.


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## jcavicchi (Aug 31, 2021)

jimPacNW said:


> - what's your hear rate like during a moto enduro? have you raced bicycles?


You bet I have.

This is a non-starter for me.

Sure, my heart rate might be higher when racing a bike, but there is absolutely no way, none, that racing a bicycle gives you the same full-body pounding that racing a 250lb machine capable of going 80 MPH or more through the woods on tight, rocky trails does.

Unless maybe you are on the world cup DH circuit.

I have had to strip all of my armor off and lay down in a stream while racing enduro just to keep from passing out.

I have actually thrown up in my helmet while racing enduro.

Have I felt like dog vomit while racing my mountain bike?

Yep.

But not like when I raced my motorcycle.

And I never even raced hare scrambles. Those really suck.

The point isn't that one is better than the other. The point is that people make a lot of judgements about things with which they have no direct experience, based either on assumptions or a need to feel superior.

I don't ride motorcycles anymore, but I still spend a ton of time on my mountain bikes. And I don't own an ebike.

But you'll never hear me say to someone on an ebike or moto, "Boy, it most be nice and easy when you have a motor."


----------



## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

I thought this was going to be about machine made trails vs hand made trails. That would be more interesting than e-bikes vs regular mountain bikes. Well, to me at least 

Personally, I'm sick of machine made flow trails! There, I said it...

edit: "sick of" is a bit of hyperbole. While I do prefer hand built, non-flow trails, I appreciate machine made trails, but wouldn't want them to all be that way


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

baker said:


> I thought this was going to be about machine made trails vs hand made trails. That would be more interesting than e-bikes vs regular mountain bikes. Well, to me at least
> 
> Personally, I'm sick of machine made flow trails! There, I said it...
> 
> edit: "hate" is a bit of hyperbole. While I do prefer hand built, non-flow trails, I appreciate machine made trails, but wouldn't want them to all be that way


As I was typing out my last rant it occurred to me that the solution is simply less flow, more tech.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

Dogbrain said:


> As I was typing out my last rant it occurred to me that the solution is simply less flow, more tech.


 I think my local trails tight/techy trails would be misery on an ebike: my avg 'hot lap' speed is in the 6-7mph range.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

jcavicchi said:


> But you'll never hear me say to someone on an ebike or moto, "Boy, it most be nice and easy when you have a motor."


 I wouldn't say it, but I would think it, especially while road riding and encountering fast ebikers


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Every novel or movie who's theme was "the rise of the machines" has ended ominously. Something to think about.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> This isn't Dylan going electric, after all


Maybe they could be acoustic and electric bikes. That's slightly less douchey than calling a bike an analog bike......


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

plummet said:


> Maybe they could be acoustic and electric bikes. That's slightly less douchey than calling a bike an analog bike......


I think just bike and e-bike is fine. I mean.. the dawn of motorcycles didn't bring about unmotoredcycles... just still bicycles.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

dysfunction said:


> I think just bike and e-bike is fine. I mean.. the dawn of motorcycles didn't bring about unmotoredcycles... just still bicycles.


what worries me is the inevitability of e-horses.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

jimPacNW said:


> what worries me is the inevitability of e-horses.


I need to go watch Westworld again.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

jimPacNW said:


> what worries me is the inevitability of e-horses.


you mean this?









Motorcycle maker Kawasaki created a rideable electric goat — take a look


Videos from the world's largest robot trade show in Tokyo last week show Kawasaki's four-legged robot, Bex, in action.




www.businessinsider.com





the e-Horse or e-Mule or whatever this thing is already exists.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

GKelley said:


> Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Things go bad quickly when it's primarily about fitness and trophies...

The epitome of bike fitness and handling. You should give it a shot, but wouldn't be that surprised if you're already a tri-geek.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

mlx john said:


> Things go bad quickly when it's primarily about fitness and trophies...
> 
> The epitome of bike fitness and handling. You should give it a shot, but wouldn't be that surprised if you're already a tri-geek.


That's a whole lotta ouch there...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mlx john said:


> The epitome of bike fitness and handling.


Almost.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

mlx john said:


> Things go bad quickly when it's primarily about fitness and trophies...
> 
> The epitome of bike fitness and handling. You should give it a shot, but wouldn't be that surprised if you're already a tri-geek.


I was confused by the lack of aero bars.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

dysfunction said:


> I was confused by the lack of aero bars.


Lots of speedos though...


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

dysfunction said:


> I need to go watch Westworld again.


My fantasy, E-wives.
Roomba's with kegs on them.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

slapheadmofo said:


> Almost.


What? No helmets?


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

MSU Alum said:


> My fantasy, E-wives.
> Roomba's with kegs on them.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mlx john said:


> Things go bad quickly when it's primarily about fitness and trophies...
> 
> The epitome of bike fitness and handling. You should give it a shot, but wouldn't be that surprised if you're already a tri-geek.




Tit for tat eh?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.


I'm curious, what trails around you did you see mtb'ers fighting for access to trails?


----------



## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

The genre of music on the soundtrack on that crash video seems oddly appropriate for the thread.


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

chazpat said:


> I'm curious, what trails around you did you see mtb'ers fighting for access to trails?


Recently? 
Union County, lots of effort put in by the local chapter, but access was denied
Mt Vernon. Lot of effort put in by the local chapter and access was granted


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

CRM6 said:


> Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.
> 
> This is a sad truth to todays state of affairs....


Tribalism sucks, chews, and blows.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

GKelley said:


> Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Damn Tullio Campagnolo inventing the derailleur and making cycling easier and ruining it for the fitness freaks!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> Excellent post. Thank you.
> 
> And for everyone else:
> 
> ...


Thanks for binning that one. I'd said from the beginning it was borderline.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

fly4130 said:


> The genre of music on the soundtrack on that crash video seems oddly appropriate for the thread.


 I know, right? it was so terrible


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## JumpinMacaque (Jan 26, 2010)

stripes said:


> Tribalism sucks, chews, and blows.


Yep. Too bad that e-bikers adamantly refuse to pull their weight. If they wanted to be a partner they could start by reading FSM and the FSH instead of whining on the internet.


fsm - 7700 Code Field Issuances


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

The solution is easy: any vehicle with a motor is a motor vehicle. Vehicles with motors must use motorized trails. Problem solved. Of course the bike companies see a huge potential revenue stream moving into the motorbike market, and they want to pretend that ebikes are not motorbikes so that their customers can use non-motorized trails. Time for those of us who don't stand to profit from ebikes to end the marketing spin: ebikes are motorbikes and they must use motorized trails. Keep in mind that there are far more miles of motorized trails and dirt roads in the wilderness than there are non-motorized trails. You can't have it both ways... If your vehicle has a motor, use trails designated for motorized vehicles.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

JumpinMacaque said:


> Yep. Too bad that e-bikers adamantly refuse to pull their weight. If they wanted to be a partner rather than a parasite, they could start by reading FSM and the FSH instead of whining on the internet.
> 
> 
> fsm - 7700 Code Field Issuances


What does that have to do with my tribalism comment, other than proving your own behavior is tribalism and trolling?


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Looks like we found the mtn bikers that are fighting to prevent access



Bacon Fat said:


> Not long ago, it was mtb'ers fighting for access to trails, now we have mtb'ers fighting to prevent access to trails.





JumpinMacaque said:


> Yep. Too bad that e-bikers adamantly refuse to pull their weight. If they wanted to be a partner rather than a parasite, they could start by reading FSM and the FSH instead of whining on the internet.
> 
> 
> fsm - 7700 Code Field Issuances





Smiles for miles said:


> The solution is easy: any vehicle with a motor is a motor vehicle. Vehicles with motors must use motirized trails. Problem solved. Of course the bike companies see a huge potential revenue stream moving into the motorbike market, and they want to pretend that ebikes are not motorbikes so that their customers can use non-motorized trails. Time for those of us who don't stand to profit from ebikes to end the marketing spin: ebikes are motorbikes and they must use motorized trails. Keep in mind that there are far more miles of motorized trails and dirt roads in the wilderness than there are non-motorized trails. You can't have it both ways... If your vehicle has a motor, use trails designated for motorized vehicles.


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

Bacon Fat said:


> Looks like we found the mtn bikers that are fighting to prevent access


Access to what? Non motorized trails? Yes, I believe vehicles with motors should not have access to non motorized trails. Pretty logical once you ignore the marketing spin eh?


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

I have said it before, it is incremental. Lets look at some of the comments.

The hikers would prefer not to have mountain bikes on the trails. The mountain bikers would prefer not to have the human assisted motorbikes on the trails. The Class 1 e-bikers what to just draw the line at their group. The Class 2 want access to the same trails and complain the Class 1 e-bikers are exclusionists. This goes on and on until we reach the poor side-by-side riders who want to be on the same trails so as to enjoy the outdoors. 

Everyone wants in but keep those others out.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jimglassford said:


> Everyone wants in but keep those others out.



Not true. Motorcycle and atv enthusiasts don't really care if hikers and mountain bikers are on their trails.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not true. Motorcycle and atv enthusiasts don't really care if hikers and mountain bikers are on their trails.


I'm an off-road motorcyclist and I don't want other users on OHV trails.
=sParty


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sparticus said:


> I'm an off-road motorcyclist and I don't want other users on OHV trails.
> =sParty



Shirley you jest.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Smiles for miles said:


> Access to what? Non motorized trails? Yes, I believe vehicles with motors should not have access to non motorized trails. Pretty logical once you ignore the marketing spin eh?


Well with your logic, electric wheelchairs need to go in the road...because it has a motor and everything with motors are the same.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smiles for miles said:


> in the wilderness


LOL


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Shirley you jest.


Like a bunch of slow, sneaky, whiny obstacles.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

You have to draw the line somewhere. The confusion is that companies and enthusiasts for E-bikes want to ignore the fact that they have motors when advocating for trail access, while espousing the benefit of that very same motor when marketing them. The fact is, they don't belong on non-motorized, multi-use trails--because they have a motor. (left to the discretion of land managers I suppose) No amount of hand waving and prevaricating, name calling or shouts of exclusion or elitism is going to change that. If you want to ride one, ride one. Ride it where it's allowed and have fun. But don't be a hypocrite and try to claim is is something it is not.


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

Bacon Fat said:


> Well with your logic, electric wheelchairs need to go in the road...because it has a motor and everything with motors are the same.


Sidewalks are not restricted to non motorized use. You are comparing apples to oranges.


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

jimglassford said:


> I have said it before, it is incremental. Lets look at some of the comments.
> 
> The hikers would prefer not to have mountain bikes on the trails. The mountain bikers would prefer not to have the human assisted motorbikes on the trails. The Class 1 e-bikers what to just draw the line at their group. The Class 2 want access to the same trails and complain the Class 1 e-bikers are exclusionists. This goes on and on until we reach the poor side-by-side riders who want to be on the same trails so as to enjoy the outdoors.
> 
> Everyone wants in but keep those others out.


Yes but things have been pretty well settled for a long time by separating motorized users and non motorized users. Most trails users are OK with that separation. Now you have ebike marketing teams trying to attack that balance. Ebikes have motors, and ebikers should work within the existing framework and not try to destroy it.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

I will throw in another variable. Here, some multi use trails are open to hikers, bikers and horse back riding.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> I will throw in another variable. Here, some multi use trails are open to hikers, bikers and horse back riding.


That's pretty much everywhere here.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

I read most of this thread and the now binned "how bad is breaking the rules" thread and am coming to the same conclusion. Some folks just want to argue. I am very perplexed at the conclusion that some folks here don't want bikes on trails when they say you should not ride an e-bike on trails where they are not allowed. That is pure cognitive dissonance.

If e-bikes are allowed ride 'em, if not don't. If you want them allowed work with the land manager, don't poach and whine. The reason I am saying don't ride them is not anti-ebike, its pro-bike access. In many places access is precarious and if e-bike or general mountain bike access regulation violations results in no access well then that is very bad. Focus on the land managers and developing relationships and things will change.

Hyperbolic arguments from any side are a sign of a weak position.


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## Smiles for miles (Feb 26, 2021)

jimglassford said:


> I will throw in another variable. Here, some multi use trails are open to hikers, bikers and horse back riding.


Yes, and they are all non motorized. Keep the division the way it is in most places: motorized trails and non motorized trails. Easy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smiles for miles said:


> Yes but things have been pretty well settled for a long time by separating motorized users and non motorized users. Most non-motorized trails users are OK with that separation.


FIFY


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Smiles for miles said:


> Access to what? Non motorized trails? Yes, I believe vehicles with motors should not have access to non motorized trails. Pretty logical once you ignore the marketing spin eh?


What about trails that were originally created by and for motorized users, but over the course of much crying and whining, exclusionary NIMBYs managed to get them disallowed?
Would those be 'non motorized' or 'motorized' trails? 

What about 'foot travel' trails? You know, the ones all of us who've been riding for more than a few hours started out on exclusively, and which still make up the majority of trails in most places.
I'm sure you've never taken your bike on anything that fits that description, right?


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## jcavicchi (Aug 31, 2021)

slapheadmofo said:


> What about trails that were originally created by and for motorized users, but over the course of much crying and whining, exclusionary NIMBYs managed to get them disallowed?
> Would those be 'non motorized' or 'motorized' trails?
> 
> What about 'foot travel' trails? You know, the ones all of us who've been riding for more than a few hours started out on exclusively, and which still make up the majority of trails in most places.
> I'm sure you've never taken your bike on anything that fits that description, right?


Literally almost every good MTB trail (or at least mountain bike area) in my neck of the woods started out as a motorcycle trail in the 1970s or 1980s.

Really - almost every one.

And how many are still open to motorcycles.

Two.

I grew up next to NEMBAs Vietnam trail network in Milford MA back in the 70s and 80s.

Know who built and rode those trails?

Motorcycle riders.

Now e-bikes are explicitly banned there, not to mention motos.

NEMBA owns that land, so it is safe for mountain bikers.

But in general, the adage "What goes around comes around" should be taken seriously by the MTB community.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Smiles for miles said:


> Sidewalks are not restricted to non motorized use. You are comparing apples to oranges.


(a) A person may not drive a motor vehicle on a sidewalk, sidewalk area, or hike and bike trail except on a permanent or authorized temporary driveway.

Since an electric wheelchair has a motor, then with your logic, it can only be a motorized vehicle. 

Of course, reasonable people understand that is complete nonsense and that there are other method to classify vehicles


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> (a) A person may not drive a motor vehicle on a sidewalk, sidewalk area, or hike and bike trail except on a permanent or authorized temporary driveway.
> 
> Since an electric wheelchair has a motor, then with your logic, it can only be a motorized vehicle.
> 
> Of course, reasonable people understand that is complete nonsense and that there are other method to classify vehicles


dude, ADA grants Wheelchair users some different rights than recreational users. That is just not a good argument.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jcavicchi said:


> Literally almost every good MTB trail (or at least mountain bike area) in my neck of the woods started out as a motorcycle trail in the 1970s or 1980s.
> 
> Really - almost every one.
> 
> ...


I know, I used to ride Nam when motos were still allowed. Quite a few other places too.
It was actually a lot better then IMHO - once it got popular with MTBers, you got a million go-arounds and intersection everywhere, someone decided that pulling the rocks out of the trail surface and lining the sides of the trail with them was somehow a good idea...I can hardly stand riding there anymore. It's gone from a very cool and challenging technical singletrack experience to an over-worked version of someone's idea of an MTB carnival midway. (NEMBA only owns a small part of the area BTW.)


When I started riding MTBs in the early 90's, Leominster SF (which is another popular place these days) didn't allow MTBs on any singletrack, only fireroads. This even though all the singletrack had originally been made by moto riders. After some years, we gained bicycle access to those trails and have also been able to build many more. It seems that guys like SmileforMiles would be of the opinion that since it was once 'illegal' for us to ride those trails, then it should forever remain that way. Weird outlook; maybe these people are so new to the game they have no knowledge of the history of MTB access.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Klurejr said:


> ADA grants Wheelchair users some different rights than recreational users. That is just not a good argument.


And yet this is at least half the argument used by the eMtb community for getting access to singletrack: "I'm old!", "I'm hurt!", "My wife is old!", "I can't keep up with my friends!", "My friends are old!".....and on and on.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> dude, ADA grants Wheelchair users some different rights than recreational users. That is just not a good argument.


And they don't make a distinction between a regular wheelchair and an electric one because of the motor. They can look at both of them and see they both meet the same usage and treat them equally. 

But nope, people here keep saying it has a motor, it's a motor vehicle.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> And they don't make a distinction between a regular wheelchair and an electric one because of the motor. They can look at both of them and see they both meet the same usage and treat them equally.
> 
> But nope, people here keep saying it has a motor, it's a motor vehicle.


Wheels Chairs - Apples
Bicycles - Oranges

Your argument is weak sir. The two modes of transportation do not equate to eachother in this context at all.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Wheels Chairs - Apples
> Bicycles - Oranges
> 
> Your argument is weak sir. The two modes of transportation do not equate to eachother in this context at all.


So now it is the modes of transportation that make the difference, not the motor. Imagine that.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bacon Fat said:


> So now it is the modes of transportation that make the difference, not the motor. Imagine that.


I am not making an argument for or against eBikes. I am just pointing out that comparing a motorized wheelchair on a sidewalk is not a good argument. If you want to convince others use better tactics, that one is not working.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> I am not making an argument for or against eBikes. I am just pointing out that comparing a motorized wheelchair on a sidewalk is not a good argument. If you want to convince others use better tactics, that one is not working.


It is a good argument in that you can't classify something just because it has a motor. Mode of transportation is an excellent example that you provided. Common usage is another. There a many reasons something would be not classified as a motor vehicle just because it has a motor.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Yours is a classic "straw man" argument. Now, move along.


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## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

D. Inoobinati said:


> Yours is a classic "straw man" argument. Now, move along.


No it isn't. It just points out the length of dishonesty and rudeness fellow mtn bikers will go to prevent access to trails.

What kinda of person wants to limit trail access to the old and hurt....oh yeah. You do


----------



## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

OMG, Did Mike V. go deep undercover?


----------



## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Bacon Fat said:


> What kinda of person wants to limit trail access to the old and hurt....oh yeah. You do


Keep trotting out your straw men. Looks like you have an army of them.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Today I rode up climbs that e-bikers were pushing their bikes up.

This will not keep up though.


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## JumpinMacaque (Jan 26, 2010)

stripes said:


> What does that have to do with my tribalism comment, other than proving your own behavior is tribalism and trolling?


Because reducing this problem to tribalism ignores 2 major issues:
1. Management of land and trails is based on policy. E-bikers in this thread, as well as their paid industry advocates, are trying for one emotional appeal after another. Figure out how to fix policy rather than combat "haters" who know policy.
2. Bring something to the table. How are you going to convince bike advocates that we have shared interests?


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

Wow. Divide and conquer.
I think it is time for this thread to go away.
Ebike riders are not the evil empire you haters make them out to be. They are also not dirt bike and atv trail abusersboosting and tearing up the woods. They are not even 1600 lb beasts that sh!t all over the trails.
Some of you have proven my point. Douche-bags will be douche-bags no matter their mode of transport.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

1spd1way said:


> Wow. Divide and conquer.
> I think it is time for this thread to go away.
> Ebike riders are not the evil empire you haters make them out to be. They are also not dirt bike and atv trail abusersboosting and tearing up the woods. They are not even 1600 lb beasts that sh!t all over the trails.
> Some of you have proven my point. Douche-bags will be douche-bags no matter their mode of transport.



Why is it every time someone disagrees or offers an opinion to a controversial activity, those who are called out try the MARTYR defense? No one hates the e-bikers, there is a disagreement on the location for different activities. Modes of conveyance on the myriad of trails throughout the USA have a broad spectrum with incremental differences. Each wants to draw the line at a certain point that best suits their recreational style. Unfortunately, this is not a black and white topic, it is the color spectrum and each contributor has a favorite color. This forum is a great place to discuss and debate these topics as it keeps the participants separate and offers a certain amount of anonymity. Such a pity when some feel others are not supporting their thought process, they turn to personal attacks.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

1spd1way said:


> Wow. Divide and conquer.
> I think it is time for this thread to go away.
> Ebike riders are not the evil empire you haters make them out to be.


The irony is strong here. Went right over your head when you typed this, didn't it?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jimglassford said:


> Why is it every time someone disagrees or offers an opinion to a controversial activity, those who are called out try the MARTYR defense? No one hates the e-bikers, there is a disagreement on the location for different activities. Modes of conveyance on the myriad of trails throughout the USA have a broad spectrum with incremental differences. Each wants to draw the line at a certain point that best suits their recreational style. Unfortunately, this is not a black and white topic, it is the color spectrum and each contributor has a favorite color. This forum is a great place to discuss and debate these topics as it keeps the participants separate and offers a certain amount of anonymity. Such a pity when some feel others are not supporting their thought process, they turn to personal attacks.


haTeRR!!!!!


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## 1spd1way (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, Silentfoe.... you so smaht.


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## blammo585 (Apr 24, 2012)

Smiles for miles said:


> Access to what? Non motorized trails? Yes, I believe vehicles with motors should not have access to non motorized trails. Pretty logical once you ignore the marketing spin eh?


What is your problem with allowing ebikes on mtb trails? Is it just the fact that they have a motor, therefore they're more equal to dirt bikes than bicycles?

An ebike is not going to tear the land up like a dirt bike, ATV, or SxS. I don't see where they pose a physical danger. So it just seems like "Bikes - good; Ebikes - bad...unga bunga." I have ridden my ATV a few places and there's no way I'd want to take a bike through them, ebike or not.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

blammo585 said:


> So it just seems like "Bikes - good; Ebikes - bad...unga bunga."


It's much like "Class 1 Ebikes - good; other Ebikes - bad".


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

GKelley said:


> Never owned a fat bike, although they do look fun, and I like the sound of the tires!
> 
> My concern with eBikes is: How long before we're expected to pay 6k and up for a battery powered bike just to enter the sport? Biking is supposed to be about fitness. eBiking is quickly ruining that.


Who the heck made the rules on what cycling is supposed to be about? And you can get plenty of exercise using an e-bike. This sort of cycling elitism is such a turn off to people trying to get into the sport. It's seriously a turn off.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's much like "Class 1 Ebikes - good; other Ebikes - bad".


MTBs- Fine! 
Class 1 E-bikes- Ummm..okay, I guess. 
Any other E-bike- Don't even think about it!!😄


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## Cheap_Basterd (May 28, 2020)

I was recently climbing on my non-motorized bike on a narrow trail by Mt Diablo and a group of fat asses on their E bikes demanded I pull over, break my momentum, and let them pass on by because they couldn’t be delayed for 30 seconds until I was finished climbing. 

Clearly this is behavior from someone who has never actually ridden a non-motorized bike and doesn’t realize how big of a deal breaking momentum in the middle of a climb can be or how much of a ***** it is to start up again.

I am also fat, so not judging their BMI it’s just the extremely annoying “can you please stop or move over we have a group” way they said it.

I’m in the process of trying to find a good Ebike for my mother and because she likes to go on bike rides with my dad, but she has a bad knee and can’t keep up with him, so I don’t particularly hate on Ebikes either.

I just think it’s behavior of certain individuals who have no respect and no common sense.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

Cheap_Basterd said:


> I was recently climbing on my non-motorized bike on a narrow trail by Mt Diablo and a group of fat asses on their E bikes demanded I pull over, break my momentum, and let them pass on by because they couldn’t be delayed for 30 seconds until I was finished climbing.
> 
> Clearly this is behavior from someone who has never actually ridden a non-motorized bike and doesn’t realize how big of a deal breaking momentum in the middle of a climb can be or how much of a *** it is to start up again.
> 
> ...


Then your mother would benefit from a Class 3 E-Bike.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Those "machines" are infesting the local foothill trails out here too. Got passed recently on the singletrack by a an old fat guy (like me) riding one of these:








Our trails get pretty crowded with elderly walkers, birdwatchers, runners, dog walkers, younger mountain bikers, pro-level mountain bikers, families, and even tourists. 

Now we got eMtbs ripping uphill past all of us. It's a good thing that this guy was playing his music through speakers so that everyone could hear him coming from a mile away.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I rode my dad’s Trek Rail 7 the other day with my cousin and his kid (they were on E-bikes too).

I got the same workout I get on my normal bike, only we went at least twice as fast on the climb. I still pedaled as hard as I could. On the downhill I wasn’t quite as fast as normal, mostly just because I couldn’t get the seat low enough (needs a longer dropper).

Anyhow, we had a blast.

Not interested in owning one myself, however.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Weinerts said:


> i have two kind and amazing peeps who ride ebikes because of health (heart) problems. * remove the jerk from the trails and problems will be solved*.


Therein lies the problem. There's no practical way to do that.

While I'm willing to accept class 1 e-bikes on the trails, I can easily see a situation where an irresponsible rider on an overpowered e-bike causes a serious incident which brings bans and enforcement to the trails.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Cheap_Basterd said:


> I was recently climbing on my non-motorized bike on a narrow trail by Mt Diablo and a group of fat asses on their E bikes demanded I pull over, break my momentum, and let them pass on by because they couldn’t be delayed for 30 seconds until I was finished climbing.
> 
> Clearly this is behavior from someone who has never actually ridden a non-motorized bike and doesn’t realize how big of a deal breaking momentum in the middle of a climb can be or how much of a *** it is to start up again.
> 
> ...


Did you then ride down a Legal single track.


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## Morningdove (7 mo ago)

The older you get the more tempting that ebike seems


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## winsail (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm glad there is a forum where people can express their love or hate for e-bikes vs. pedal bikes. Here's my story. I'm 64, I like to ride at least 5 days a week and now own 2 MTB bikes for the 1st time. 
I purchased an e-bike as what I call my Medicare supplement for my 65th birthday next month. I ride 3 or 4 days on my pedal bike and then 1 day or rest day on my e-bike. For obvious reasons I don't understand the us vs. them controversy. I do think there are inconsiderate riders on pedal bikes and bikes with a motor and a battery. All of us should be sharing the right of way and speed rules with inconsiderate riders. We have been working so hard for trail advocacy and access for MTB's over the last 40+ years do we need to fight amongst ourselves? It seems like an incredible waist of time and energy. There are plenty of groups that want to stop all MTB access, dividing us into subgroups of pedal vs. ebike just helps those groups limit our access further. There's still plenty of work to do to get the general public to accept MTB on trails let's not go ten steps backward fighting amongst ourselves. Being respectful riders, politely giving right of way to other users and announcing we're coming can make a lasting impression of how inclusive and considerate the majority of MTBers are.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

I always found it ironic to be riding from the urban center and into the hills to mountain bike. We'd ride up the narrow roads, get buzzed by a few cars, and then enter the park - past all the cars crammed into the over-full parking lot.

Then we'd be lectured to by hikers about the "erosion" or other deleterious environmental effects our bikes were causing. Was this the driver that buzzed me on my bike as I rode to the trail? Possibly. Or was this hiker the one who crammed his car into that illegal parking spot, limiting access to EMS personnel? Maybe. 

Either way, there's nothing like being lectured to by people accessing our parks with their cars about "environmental damage" mountain bikes cause when you're riding to the trails.

Which brings me to my point...

E-bikes have the potential to re-make our transportation landscape. We've quickly learned that when you pave more lanes, you simply invite more traffic. Instead of improving traffic flow, more lanes encourage more gridlock. And for places like the urban Bay Area, there simply isn't more room for more lanes in the first place.

When Covid restrictions were lifted, I was disappointed to hear the usual "Hwy 17 is backed up to Los Gatos." news reports. Getting to Santa Cruz is basically not feasible on many weekends. We quickly returned to our pre-Covid transportation woes. But what about riding an e-bike instead? Talk about a blast! Cruise through the redwoods on Old Santa Cruz Hwy, along Summit and down into Aptos on your bike? Or heck, make a mountain bike trip out of the journey! The options are almost endless. E-bikes have the potential to open things up like never before. 

And although electric cars and trucks will address air quality problems, they do nothing to address traffic, bumper-to-bumper commutes and gridlock. In fact, the electric car will only invite more of the same, as drivers can now be "green" by driving. Not so fast! I've been saying, "The path to planet gridlock will be paved with green intentions!"

The e-bike addresses these problems. Instead of clogging our roads with more and more single-occupant vehicles ("Oh but MINE'S electric!"), we can increase traffic capacity by filling lanes with e-bikes! THIS is an actual solution that could work. Sure, it sounds crazy now, but it's an approach with tons of upside. And this will be a major boon to the motorcycle riders among us. They have the opportunity to welcome a completely new user group into their ranks. Road & driver safety campaigns will be forced to address "bike" vs. automobile collisions and injuries. Talk about a boon for us all! (I say this after a friend was SERIOUSLY injured by a left-turning driver into his path. He's lucky to be alive. Let's hope he'll be able to ride after his fourth or fifth surgery  )

Imagine one lane of every Bay Area freeway dedicated to electric bikes and motorcycles? Or some variation on this theme? That would be amazing. Imagine how you could actually look FORWARD to your daily commute to work? Sure, who wants to cycle next to speeding traffic all day long (Bay Bridge Alex Zuckermann trail, for example) so perhaps this idea needs some refinement. But it doesn't change the point: e-bikes (and other forms of individual electric transportation) can improve our daily transportation greatly.

So I say let's take this opportunity to welcome e-bikes into our fold so we can really exploit the technology to its full potential. 

OK, off to hit the trails...


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