# eBay Insanity



## farley325 (Apr 2, 2004)

Was anyone else watching this Paul's derailleur? I've never seen one go this high before. completely insane!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320211857893&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011


----------



## befoot (Mar 11, 2006)

Wow!!!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

can you imagine the rest of his build? 
btw... does it fit a klein?


----------



## Helix (Mar 6, 2004)

It will be interesting to see how much this one goes for...

NOS Paul PowerGlide Rear Derailleur - New in the Box - Rasta


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I never got those CNC derailleurs. They look so clunky and not in the nice Mavic or IRD way. Clearly a case of chacun son gout.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

http://cgi.ebay.com/GRAFTON-MTB-CAN...ryZ27949QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

:eekster:


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140202290079&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

Deore level


----------



## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

colker1 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/GRAFTON-MTB-CANTILEVER-BRAKE-SET_W0QQitemZ260207211413QQihZ016QQcategoryZ27949QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> :eekster:


Two other sales went for $330-350 recently. What was even more surprising was they were the most common color black. Good I bought a year ago and no need to buy today.

'guin


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

pinguwin said:


> Two other sales went for $330-350 recently. What was even more surprising was they were the most common color black. Good I bought a year ago and no need to buy today.
> 
> 'guin


all my bikes are riders. i will only buy vintage if it works better or equal than contemporary AND it costs less. 
does it make any sense?


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I never got those CNC derailleurs. They look so clunky and not in the nice Mavic or IRD way. Clearly a case of chacun son gout.


if one has a lego fetish... or is obsessed w/ bike parts that don't work.


----------



## Chasintrane (Jun 1, 2006)

I was watching that purple Paul piece just for fun. I never thought it would go that high. Deftone throws his wallet at that purple stuff. Check his feedback. It's hard for us US guys to hang with the Euro buyers since our dollar is so weak.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Chasintrane said:


> I was watching that purple Paul piece just for fun. I never thought it would go that high. Deftone throws his wallet at that purple stuff. Check his feedback. It's hard for us US guys to hang with the Euro buyers since our dollar is so weak.


it makes for a compelling reason to ride a singlespeed doesn't it?

and when you think a deore FD works better...


----------



## Hardguy (Nov 4, 2006)

Hahah, at least they are components that work some of the times, not a brochure of some bike parts like this auction that went for almost a $100 w/ shipping. I wonder what a brochure for Paul derailleurs would go for?!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270207042667&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017


----------



## Chasintrane (Jun 1, 2006)

Hardguy said:


> Hahah, at least they are components that work some of the times, not a brochure of some bike parts like this auction that went for almost a $100 w/ shipping. I wonder what a brochure for Paul derailleurs would go for?!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270207042667&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017


Sweet! Thanks for that link. I just saved the pictures to my hard drive and saved $90.


----------



## GonaSovereign (Sep 20, 2004)

bushpig said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140202290079&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004
> 
> Deore level


Wow, overpriced, but at least that crankset can be ridden hard for more than a season. So much of the US CNC stuff I loved as a teenager just didn't stand up. There's a reason why Shimano stuff is so much better in the long run: they did their testing in the lab, not on buyers.


----------



## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

*obsession with being "right"*



colker1 said:


> all my bikes are riders. i will only buy vintage if it works better or equal than contemporary AND it costs less.
> does it make any sense?


Had this conversation recently with a buddy who was outbid on a "vintage" item. I agree with you Flavio. For me, a new Thomson is way better than a vintage syncros at the same price-point. It is lighter, stronger, and has a company which will stand behind it. But, for the collector, I think it is different. There is a non-mechanical and more emotional satisfaction in putting things together "correctly" in order to maintain an integrity to its original intention.

I can totally appreciate it, but am not good at participating.

I'm selling my '64 chevy pickup for the same reason. And, because I didn't stay true to vintage and rather re-built with some pretty modern parts, I'm not getting nearly the money I'd like, nor close to what I put into it. But, I wanted the "ecclectic" type build of a mix of old and new.

And for me... the frame is the thing.


----------



## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

plus the shimano is a cold forged product, and not a CNCed out of soft ALum.


----------



## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jh4rt said:


> a new Thomson is way better than a vintage syncros...has a company which will stand behind it...


FWIW, see this post, #27, A Syncros manager contacted me unsolicited and replaced a cracked 15 y.o. post, without asking, I didn't even have to mail the cracked post in. Mind you this is when the current owners weren't running things and as such, legally aren't required to cover it.

The Thomson post may well be better but Syncros is going beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned. Just letting you know.

'Guin


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jh4rt said:


> Had this conversation recently with a buddy who was outbid on a "vintage" item. I agree with you Flavio. For me, a new Thomson is way better than a vintage syncros at the same price-point. It is lighter, stronger, and has a company which will stand behind it. But, for the collector, I think it is different. There is a non-mechanical and more emotional satisfaction in putting things together "correctly" in order to maintain an integrity to its original intention.
> 
> I can totally appreciate it, but am not good at participating.
> 
> ...


i dunnno.. sometimes i feel there is a big element of greed in collecting. businness. 
i am not going to pay more for a frame than what rody or curtlo or potts would charge me to build. it's against my personal code of ethics... and dumb from the love of riding point of view. 
i suspect those who are inflating the prices are going for the business, financial value of the whole thing... 
live and let live. it's a free world... but it ain't my thing.


----------



## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> FWIW, see this post, #27, A Syncros manager contacted me unsolicited and replaced a cracked 15 y.o. post, without asking, I didn't even have to mail the cracked post in. Mind you this is when the current owners weren't running things and as such, legally aren't required to cover it.
> 
> The Thomson post may well be better but Syncros is going beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned. Just letting you know.
> 
> 'Guin


Suppose that was a bad example.

I have a Syncros on my Yo. But, it has been there since new. I'm certainly not implying, in any way, they are inferior products. When given the choice (I recently sold my 99 Yo...) I kept my Syncros and sold the Thomson. But, if I had to purchase a new one, the considerations would be different.


----------



## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

colker1 said:


> i dunnno.. sometimes i feel there is a big element of greed in collecting. businness.
> i am not going to pay more for a frame than what rody or curtlo or potts would charge me to build. it's against my personal code of ethics... and dumb from the love of riding point of view.
> i suspect those who are inflating the prices are going for the business, financial value of the whole thing...
> live and let live. it's a free world... but it ain't my thing.


If there is a next bike for me, Rody is building it.

-j


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

colker1 said:


> i dunnno.. sometimes i feel there is a big element of greed in collecting. businness.
> i am not going to pay more for a frame than what rody or curtlo or potts would charge me to build. it's against my personal code of ethics... and dumb from the love of riding point of view.
> i suspect those who are inflating the prices are going for the business, financial value of the whole thing...
> live and let live. it's a free world... but it ain't my thing.


You like passing judgments, eh.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

sbsbiker said:


> plus the shimano is a cold forged product, and not a CNCed out of soft ALum.


Don't think that the Shimano that I posted is cold forged. The FC6206 definitely is, but like the Deore crank that replaced this one, this one isn't cold forged and has stamped rings.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> You like passing judgments, eh.


huh..no. i said it ain't MY thing (next to "it's a free.." yadda yadda yadda)

i only judge snipers on ebay...


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

colker1 said:


> huh..no. i said it ain't MY thing (next to "it's a free.." yadda yadda yadda)
> i only judge snipers on ebay...


Colker, look at the text that I quoted by you. You weren't talking about YOUR thing, you were applying the logic of "I don't get collecting vintage stuff therefore NO ONE can get it." If that isn't your logic your speculations don't make sense. And your speculation is insulting to your peers that do get collecting vintage stuff. They also aren't born out by what I've seen on Ebay at least - the guys with the most impressive collections rarely sell their collectible items.

Judging snipers? I don't even know what you are talking about. I think it is stupid to put a bid out and let it sit since it opens you up to other bidders pushing your bid. Sniping also forces you to set your price before seeing where the auction is going.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Colker, look at the text that I quoted by you. You weren't talking about YOUR thing, you were applying the logic of "I don't get collecting vintage stuff therefore NO ONE can get it." If that isn't your logic your speculations don't make sense. And your speculation is insulting to your peers that do get collecting vintage stuff. They also aren't born out by what I've seen on Ebay at least - the guys with the most impressive collections rarely sell their collectible items.
> 
> Judging snipers? I don't even know what you are talking about. I think it is stupid to put a bid out and let it sit since it opens you up to other bidders pushing your bid. Sniping also forces you to set your price before seeing where the auction is going.


i reread what i wrote and you are wrong. my quote says 
"sometimes i feel there is a big element of greed in collecting. businness."

sometimes is not always. big element is not completely.

if one is greedy why be insulted when called greedy? 
a new frame by potts has to be better and more efficient than something he did in the past. why would i pay more for the oldie from a riding viewpoint? now from a business, buy and sell logic maybe the old potts is more lucrative. not to potts... but to the seller.
my speculation makes absolute sense. the top dollar paid on vintage bikes does not pay those who built it. instead it pays those who speculate w/ their creation ..

you may love the ebay game. i don't. it was a humorous take.

i don't know why you are being deffensive but i will keep my opinion and express it. because i can. my opinion does not exclude others nor it's a moralistic statement. i made it clear it's a personal code of ethics. you may not like it but i will keep it anyway. it works for me. very well.


----------



## befoot (Mar 11, 2006)

Hardguy said:


> Hahah, at least they are components that work some of the times, not a brochure of some bike parts like this auction that went for almost a $100 w/ shipping. I wonder what a brochure for Paul derailleurs would go for?!
> 
> https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270207042667&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017


I wonder if that guy will help fund my Tandem?
https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1092/medium/Ultimate_Mcchine_96.JPG


----------



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

colker1 said:


> if one has a lego fetish... or is obsessed w/ bike parts that don't work.


Perhaps we should remember the atmosphere that led to the development of the U.S. made CNC deraileurs. Suntour had succeeded in killing themselves. Shimano was busy forcing OEM's to buy entire groupos and their "new" shifters were less reliable than their older thumb shifters. There are some drawbacks to Shimano deraileurs since they are essentailly non-rebuildable. Grip-Shift was making some inroads to the Shimano strangle hold and had just come out with deraileurs.

Enter Paul, Joe and Precision Billet. They developed deraileurs that worked (and that is NOT easy), were light weight and rebuildable. Now if you want to make relatively small runs of metal components your choices for manufacturing are CNC and nothing else, a small U.S. based manufacturer can not afford to make forged parts. Shimano has a huge advantage in the fact that bike parts are a minor part of their business (fishing gear being the big money maker). Due to their market domination, huge production volumes and industrial base, Shimano can afford to make forged parts.

A few months ago I bought a bike with a full Precision Billet groupo. Even though the bike had seen a few hard seasons and had then sat with no cleaning or lubrication, all of the parts worked fine. The shifters shifted reliably (but stiff due to dry cables) and the brakes were actually pretty nice.

If any of the billet deraileur makers had been able to capture enough market share, they would have been able to further develop their products and would have probably started having forged parts made in Taiwan (just like SRAM).

Someone complained about the fact that these parts would not last more than one season of racing. What about Ritchey Ultra's and P-23/22's, Mantis's and Yeti FRO's? How many of those are still being ridden hard? Would you trust a P-22 season after season?

Give the guys who developed these deraileurs the credit they deserve. They made a very good effort to offer an alternative to Shimano at a time when it was sorely needed.


----------



## mojo_matic (Jul 15, 2007)

outside! said:


> Someone complained about the fact that these parts would not last more than one season of racing. What about Ritchey Ultra's and P-23/22's, Mantis's and Yeti FRO's? How many of those are still being ridden hard? Would you trust a P-22 season after season?
> 
> Give the guys who developed these deraileurs the credit they deserve. They made a very good effort to offer an alternative to Shimano at a time when it was sorely needed.


We all remember the atmosphere, for that is the only reason why we would pay big $$$ for these boutique items. We all hated Shimano for making incompatible parts (and their damned integrated shifter/lever set), and we hated Suntour because the shifting sucked.

But the truth is, most American CNC parts fell short in terms of reliability and materials. Yes, the American craftmanship rocked, but that doesn't mean crap if you make your dining room table out of balsa wood. American CNC derailleurs (all of them) shifted like and spontaneously exploded. CNC cranks looked great, but the soft metal would strip or crack (even worse BREAK). As much as we all hate Shimano, their products work... GREAT!

There is only so much heart break that we could endure, watching our high priced, super swank MTB parts go belly up mid ride. Little worse that feeling your ego being drained as fast as our wallet... almost as bad as a broken collar bone resulting from a snapped CNC stem.

The frames you mention.... what components were hung on them out the factory door? I'm sure these manufactures would have LOVED to hand American made products on them if they were reliable. Other than American brakes and occasional hubset (which often sucked), the parts were exclusively Japanese or even French.

Cheers!


----------



## Chasintrane (Jun 1, 2006)

Hey outside, are those Proshift or Precision Billet grip shifters? Am I confusing the same thing? I'm just trying to figure out what I recently picked up. Here is a picture. They are secured to the handlebar via 2 set screws. I think they are 9 speed compatible.


----------



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

mojo_matic said:


> American CNC derailleurs (all of them) shifted like and spontaneously exploded. CNC cranks looked great, but the soft metal would strip or crack (even worse BREAK). As much as we all hate Shimano, their products work... GREAT!
> 
> There is only so much heart break that we could endure, watching our high priced, super swank MTB parts go belly up mid ride. Little worse that feeling your ego being drained as fast as our wallet... almost as bad as a broken collar bone resulting from a snapped CNC stem.
> 
> ...


All I can say to the first comment is one person's experience. Besides the complete groupo mentioned earlier, my Pro-Shift rear deraileur shifts great with Deore XT thumbshifters. It shifts so nice that every time I ride that bike I wish my current 9 speed XT worked that well (that could also be due to the fact that 7 spd is much more durable than 9 speed). I installed it in two minutes, set the limit screws and it has worked flawlessly ever since. I will admit, it only got about a year and a half of weekly rides before I got a new FS bike, but it still does great service on Trail-A-Bike duty/beer run bike now. Maybe it is less reliable than XT, but then again, a rear deraileur can lead a difficult life. Lot's of people replace deraileurs evey couple of years.

Yes, there were a lot of bad CNC parts (Pro-Shift stems were crack-o-matic's). But some of the parts were pretty good. Remember, high end parts don't last as long as LX, not even XTR. I am not saying that they were as good as durable as Shimano, just that I have seen them perform well.

Regarding the frames (Richtey P-series, Mantis, Yeti), what does the component pick matter? These frames have proven to be just about as reliable as many of the CNC parts from that time frame. There is a reason that there are not lots of them around. The ones that saw regular service cracked. The P-series bikes were one season race bikes. The only ones still around saw lite duty or have been repaired. How many Yeti's that saw real racing didn't crack? How is a frame that cracks after 1 year and a half any different than a component with the same life span? At least the deraileurs were technically rebuildable (good luck getting parts though). Many of these CNC parts were very good first efforts and were just about as reliable as Shimano's firts generation under the bar shifters or Hyperglide chains. It is too bad that most of these companies did not have the quality control and resources to develop further.

One last thing about CNC'd parts. It appears that the center of MTB innovation has shifted to Europe and there are some companies and consumers that are going to relearn the lessons of the 90's.

Let's all blow off work tomorrow and go for a ride!


----------



## outside! (Mar 15, 2006)

Chasintrane said:


> Hey outside, are those Proshift or Precision Billet grip shifters? Am I confusing the same thing? I'm just trying to figure out what I recently picked up. Here is a picture. They are secured to the handlebar via 2 set screws. I think they are 9 speed compatible.


You definitely have the first generation Pro-Shift/Precision Billet (Precision Billet was the name of the machine shop, Pro-Shift was the parts) twist shifters. The set screws into the bars always seemed like such a nice way to introduce stress risers into the bars. The second generation shifters had integral clamps.

Where they on a bike? If so, what kind of deraileur were they hooked to?


----------



## Chasintrane (Jun 1, 2006)

Not on a bike, the lady I picked them up from thought they had never been used. A recent NOS pair in silver sold on eBay for $330, but they were the later models with the integrated clamps. Yeah, I'm not a fan of the set screw clamp idea. What do you think these are worth? I have both shifters of course.


----------



## jh4rt (Sep 5, 2007)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180210386042

Guess he only really likes purple...

How can an intricate piece of machinery like a rear derr go for half the price of a simple ass grinder like a front derr. I could build a front out of three pieces of wood and rubber bands. But, ... never mind.

This is just a collector liking what they like, right?


----------



## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

colker1 said:


> it makes for a compelling reason to ride a singlespeed doesn't it?
> 
> and when you think a deore FD works better...


Think? Heck know it works better.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

I feel some insanity coming on..... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320227006162&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> i reread what i wrote and you are wrong. my quote says
> "sometimes i feel there is a big element of greed in collecting. businness."
> 
> sometimes is not always. big element is not completely.
> ...


maybe Im not understanding fully here, but why would an expensive purchase have to be a "business purchase" or a "game"? maybe thats just how much the buyer values it. Its called nostalgia. Combine that with rarity and you get high prices. Nostalgia, sentimental memories, or appreciation for the way things were might have nothing to do with how it rides or if a new bike is cheaper.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> maybe Im not understanding fully here, but why would an expensive purchase have to be a "business purchase" or a "game"? maybe thats just how much the buyer values it. Its called nostalgia. Combine that with rarity and you get high prices. Nostalgia, sentimental memories, or appreciation for the way things were might have nothing to do with how it rides or if a new bike is cheaper.


Factor in everyones reality is different........

$1000.00 has a different value to say, Bill Gates than it does to Joe Six Pack.

You end up with: "Ebay Insanity"

You know the old $5000.00 hooker theory


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

crconsulting said:


> Factor in everyones reality is different........
> 
> $1000.00 has a different value to say, Bill Gates than it does to Joe Six Pack.
> 
> ...


That you shouldn't transport them over state lines if you want to stay governor?


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

bushpig said:


> That you shouldn't transport them over state lines if you want to stay governor?


If you're going to do that make sure they ride in the trunk


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> You know the old $5000.00 hooker theory


But that's one arena in which vintage merchandise would pull in substantially less.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> But that's one arena in which vintage merchandise would pull in substantially less.


LOL!


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> But that's one arena in which vintage merchandise would pull in substantially less.


Nitch markets. :nonod:


----------



## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

Honestly were any of you folks really around back then? A lot of the prices these things are going for isn't much higher than that stuff cost new in the '90s. I was a wrench in his early 20s in a top-end MTB store and even with employee discounts I couldn't afford the stuff. I have acquired a ton of the stuff in trade and gift over the years, but back in the day the stuff was really expensive too. Now $4210 for this fine French piece is a bit high.


----------



## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

I was wrenching back then too, and I know that Grafton cranks were expensive, but they weren't selling for this much: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120226519155&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

Still, that's nothing compared to THIS  : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150221932653&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

removed


----------



## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Here's A Current Auction, Although Not Quite Insane*

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rohloff-S-L-T-9...ryZ56197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I pick these up from time to time on eBay for cheap. Rohloff chains are the best!

The funny part is that you can still get them new, they're still being manufactured, for just over half that price.

EDIT: 3/19/08
Ok now its insane. Any of those bidders could buy the same chain in the same packaging brand new for $45. Hmm, $150+ for a chain that been sititing around for 15 years or $45 for the same one made a few months ago?!? Some people are just flat out retarded!


----------



## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

*Shill*



farley325 said:


> Was anyone else watching this Paul's derailleur? I've never seen one go this high before. completely insane!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320211857893&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011


I smell a shill. The guy who bid it up to almost $600.00 had 5 feedbacks. Something isn't right.

Tim


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

CS2 said:


> I smell a shill. The guy who bid it up to almost $600.00 had 5 feedbacks. Something isn't right.
> 
> Tim


so guys with low feedback don't have nostalgia or want parts badly? It takes two to make an auction go high. Even if it was a shill, there's still one legit guy willing to pay $600+.


----------



## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

crconsulting said:


> I feel some insanity coming on.....
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320227006162&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123


When I purchased my Cooks Bros RSRs brand new back in like 1994, I threw these out. :madman: Still have the cranks, though. 

Speaking of which, I was watching these to gauge how much mine were worth (though mine are NOT mint): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320227003762&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> maybe Im not understanding fully here, but why would an expensive purchase have to be a "business purchase" or a "game"? maybe thats just how much the buyer values it. Its called nostalgia. Combine that with rarity and you get high prices. Nostalgia, sentimental memories, or appreciation for the way things were might have nothing to do with how it rides or if a new bike is cheaper.


i wrote it quite some time a go but i remember thinking about speculation w/ parts. buy and sell. one doesn't even want the part, it's just an opportunity to make business. it's not a LBS, not a builder, just a businessman.
i don't remember why i felt slightly p!ssed off about this though... maybe i was p!ssed off at life itself. if i was i am not anymore.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> i wrote it quite some time a go but i remember thinking about speculation w/ parts. buy and sell. one doesn't even want the part, it's just an opportunity to make business. it's not a LBS, not a builder, just a businessman.
> i don't remember why i felt slightly p!ssed off about this though... maybe i was p!ssed off at life itself. if i was i am not anymore.


haha  thats pretty funny. Glad you came around.

no, but I do agree, the flippers (thats what we call em) can get annoying especially if theyre swoopin' you on your stuff.  I do have to admit though, I do flip occasionally if I get the chance. But its not necessarily vintage stuff, it can be anything. Mostly bike related though. If i happen across a Klein Adroit on my local CL for $275 you can rest assured I will have it on ebay in a week or so. It happens. The stuff I personally am fond of though, does not get flipped.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> The stuff I personally am fond of though, does not get flipped.


Amen. I look at selling stuff as a necessary evil to fuel my bike hunger. Sometimes I will pick up a bike because I need one piece or sometimes I need to fund some other bike project. The pain is when I am directed to sell stuff that I'd rather hold on to.


----------



## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

bushpig said:


> Amen. I look at selling stuff as a necessary evil to fuel my bike hunger.


Yep, I'm with ya. I also have a bunch of my ads and photos from sales going back 15ish years. Sometimes I'll be checking my harddrive and find a pic of something I've sold and say to myself, "I used to have one of those?" Usually followed by, "Damn, I should have kept that."


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

bushpig said:


> The pain is when I am directed to sell stuff that I'd rather hold on to.


The Director does call the shots, or you get cut loose from the set.


----------



## brontotx (Apr 5, 2006)

misterdangerpants said:


> Speaking of which, I was watching these to gauge how much mine were worth (though mine are NOT mint): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320227003762&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011


now THAT is f'n ridiculous!


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> a new frame by potts has to be better and more efficient than something he did in the past. why would i pay more for the oldie from a riding viewpoint?


So never pay more for an old piece of art than an new piece. Got it.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> haha  thats pretty funny. Glad you came around.
> 
> no, but I do agree, the flippers (thats what we call em) can get annoying especially if theyre swoopin' you on your stuff.  I do have to admit though, I do flip occasionally if I get the chance. But its not necessarily vintage stuff, it can be anything. Mostly bike related though. If i happen across a Klein Adroit on my local CL for $275 you can rest assured I will have it on ebay in a week or so. It happens. The stuff I personally am fond of though, does not get flipped.


Seconded.

Part of it is to get the parts you need or to fund the projects.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> So never pay more for an old piece of art than an new piece. Got it.


Point is kind of Moot since Steve's new frames cost more than I've seen his old frames sell for used. Potts is a premium builder and you pay a premium to get something by him.


----------



## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:

 Originally Posted by *colker1*
_ a new frame by potts has to be better and more efficient than something he did in the past. why would i pay more for the oldie *from a riding viewpoint*? 
_




Rumpfy said:


> So never pay more for an old piece of art than an new piece. Got it.


In your vast experience, do you find that an early Matisse rides better than one of his later works?


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

tvrbob86 said:


> In your vast experience, do you find that an early Matisse rides better than one of his later works?


Poor Colker has already recanted and still we keep piling on


----------



## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

bushpig said:


> Poor Colker has already recanted and still we keep piling on


I was actually _agreeing_ with Colker. It's Rumpfy's reply that made no sense.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

tvrbob86 said:


> I was actually _agreeing_ with Colker. It's Rumpfy's reply that made no sense.


Ah, I see. I wish I had the photoshop skills to make a picture of someone riding a painting.

However, the art Rumpfy and Colker are discussing are Steve Potts bicycles (and old bikes and parts in general). Steve's new bikes are Ti and have different geometry and ride from his older steel frames. No doubt, both are sweet but they are different.

In Colker's initial posting he contrasted ride to business value and implied that a bike was about one or the other. Rumpfy seems to have been suggesting that the bike as art has value and a value that is likely to increase with age. I'll go a step further and say that an older Potts, for example, will ride differently from a newer one so Colker's argument that focuses on a purely riding perspective still doesn't imply a clear answer as to which is "better". Maybe you want a modern carbon ride with race geometry or maybe you'd prefer something with classic Marin geometry for hitting single track and fireroads.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

tvrbob86 said:


> I was actually _agreeing_ with Colker. It's Rumpfy's reply that made no sense.


Thats because its a reference from another thread. A little jab at Colker.


----------



## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Thats because its a reference from another thread. A little jab at Colker.


My apology. I don't keep up with this forum as well as I should. However, I do remember Colker getting a Jones thread (on the 29er forum) closed when he repeatedly insisted that it wasn't art. I agree with him, but his arguing methods sometimes lack subtlety.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

tvrbob86 said:


> My apology. I don't keep up with this forum as well as I should. However, I do remember Colker getting a Jones thread (on the 29er forum) closed when he repeatedly insisted that it wasn't art. I agree with him, but his arguing methods sometimes lack subtlety.


No apology needed.

We've had a similar debate in this forum regarding Art Investments vs. VRC MTB Investments.

His argument being that all art is collectible and therefore an investment, while all vintage mtbs are just bikes...and can not be considered an investment.

Needless to say, we were at an impass on the subject.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

tvrbob86 said:


> My apology. I don't keep up with this forum as well as I should. However, I do remember Colker getting a Jones thread (on the 29er forum) closed when he repeatedly insisted that it wasn't art. I agree with him, but his arguing methods sometimes lack subtlety.


i said it wasn't art but a beautifull object/ tool. what's wrong w/ saying that? i admire Jones bikes...


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> No apology needed.
> 
> We've had a similar debate in this forum regarding Art Investments vs. VRC MTB Investments.
> 
> ...


ha! 
i remember saying it wasn't as good an investment.
even art should be collected for the sake of pleasure only. it would make for a much healthier market. the business side of it most of the time has very little to do w/ artistic cultural value.


----------



## Slyp Dawg (Oct 13, 2007)

if I were to get an old frame, say, a Trek 9200 from back when they came with the carbon swingarm and the elastomer bumper shock, I would get the swingarm re-made in aluminum by one of my CNC nut friends. if I buy a frame I intend to build it up and ride it, and I really would not trust 14+ year old carbon fiber to hold up if I had to dump the bike in the middle of a rocky section of trail. I would really hate for that to happen and have a hairline crack develop and then when I hit a faster section of trail with smaller rocks the swingarm decides it wants to divide and conquer, as that could end VERY badly for me and would not do anything from the dropouts on the fork back any good. I would much rather fork out some extra dough and get said swingarm remade from a billet of 6061 aluminum, if not because I could also get disk brake bosses put on at the same time, but also because then I could keep the original swingarm for show and not risk braking it out on the trail. I would also probably get a nondescript looking air shock or a low end coilover shock to replace the elastomer bumper shock, just so I can rest assured that I will have at least some dampening over bumps. now I wouldn't exactly go PUSH'd 2008 RP23 with the stickers removed, but I wouldn't get something like a beat up '06 Float, either. prolly a Cloud Nine. they look relatively nondescript. for a coilover I might just go to the local dumpster and rape a wally world bike for a shock of a similar measure to the stock unit. hey, how bad can a shock be, even if it is from walmart?


jh4rt said:


> Had this conversation recently with a buddy who was outbid on a "vintage" item. I agree with you Flavio. For me, a new Thomson is way better than a vintage syncros at the same price-point. It is lighter, stronger, and has a company which will stand behind it. But, for the collector, I think it is different. There is a non-mechanical and more emotional satisfaction in putting things together "correctly" in order to maintain an integrity to its original intention.
> 
> I can totally appreciate it, but am not good at participating.
> 
> ...


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

colker1 said:


> i said it wasn't art but a beautifull object/ tool. what's wrong w/ saying that? i admire Jones bikes...


tell me that bike by vanilla aren't art and I'm putting you on ignore


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Ah, I see. I wish I had the photoshop skills to make a picture of someone riding a painting.
> 
> However, the art Rumpfy and Colker are discussing are Steve Potts bicycles (and old bikes and parts in general). Steve's new bikes are Ti and have different geometry and ride from his older steel frames. No doubt, both are sweet but they are different.
> 
> In Colker's initial posting he contrasted ride to business value and implied that a bike was about one or the other. Rumpfy seems to have been suggesting that the bike as art has value and a value that is likely to increase with age. I'll go a step further and say that an older Potts, for example, will ride differently from a newer one so Colker's argument that focuses on a purely riding perspective still doesn't imply a clear answer as to which is "better". Maybe you want a modern carbon ride with race geometry or maybe you'd prefer something with classic Marin geometry for hitting single track and fireroads.


the difference between a Matisse as an art object and a bicycle seen as art is that the Matisse was made to be art. either good or bad. it's valued millions cause it's extremely good at what it was planned to be:art. not a riding machine. it does not matter if you prefer a bicycle to a painting. that in itself does not make the bike art.

a bicycle doesn't address issues of representation, cognitive processes and conscience which is what art is about. a rare bicycle is a rare bicycle and should be collected as such. like a rare stamp is a rare stamp. a rare book is a rare book. 
now stamps are the better investment. why? because they are small. one can run away w/hundreds of thousands of dollars sewed in his coat. unlike a bicycle or a rare ferrari.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

hollister said:


> tell me that bike by vanilla aren't art and I'm putting you on ignore


it's the most beautifull bicycle in the universe. ... but it's not art.

duchamp's old bicycle wheel is art.

how long will you ignore me?


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

colker1 said:


> it's the most beautifull bicycle in the universe. ... but it's not art.
> 
> duchamp's old bicycle wheel is art.
> 
> how long will you ignore me?


you're nuts


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

hollister said:


> tell me that bike by vanilla aren't art and I'm putting you on ignore


Okay. It's not art. it's self-indulgence...


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Okay. It's not art. it's self-indulgence...


I will miss your insight and wit


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

colker1 said:


> it's the most beautifull bicycle in the universe. ... but it's not art.
> 
> duchamp's old bicycle wheel is art.
> 
> how long will you ignore me?


I'm putting you on ignore for saying a Vanilla is the most beautiful bicycle in the universe - I think they're meh.

I have to disagree with you on the art point though. Your characterization of art is really limiting. I don't recognize a clear line between craftsmanship and art - none of this l'art pour l'art nonsense. For example, It is pretty clear to me that pottery can be art - consider for example the role of pottery in China or Japan. The list of these objects can go on and on.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

bushpig said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for saying a Vanilla is the most beautiful bicycle in the universe - I think they're meh.


sadly mods can't be put on ignore


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Some pretty funny convo here.


----------



## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for saying a Vanilla is the most beautiful bicycle in the universe - I think they're meh.


I would like to revoke the vote for BP for moderator that I forgot to cast.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for saying a Vanilla is the most beautiful bicycle in the universe - I think they're meh.
> 
> I have to disagree with you on the art point though. Your characterization of art is really limiting. I don't recognize a clear line between craftsmanship and art - none of this l'art pour l'art nonsense. For example, It is pretty clear to me that pottery can be art - consider for example the role of pottery in China or Japan. The list of these objects can go on and on.


actually pottery is a fine example. native south american pottery... of the cadiueu nation. to them, body and pottery painting are highly symbolic. for this nation, drawing the body was a means of distinguishing themselves from animals and nature. 
that's exactly what art is about: it's about the workings of conscience. it can be a something rough and primitive but it has a strong intention. it's meant to be a statement.
the drawings in their bodies had a recurring geometry which could describe their tribe hierarchies and even their cosmogony. those drawings would resume their culture. it's not decorative at all.

the so called decorative arts, fine arts are closer to what some see in high end bicycles. well made objects w/a sense of harmony and balance. those harmonies and form are not invested w/ symbolism or intent. it's just well made objects that will perform duty.
the artist or the collective artistic conscience of a tribe can give sophisticated, symbolic meanings to form. it resumes a conscience of things. like the renaissance paintings and the idea of perspective. it resumed life under rennaissance. then it's art.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for saying a Vanilla is the most beautiful bicycle in the universe - I think they're meh.
> .


i was being political.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

> the drawings in their bodies had a recurring geometry which could describe their tribe hierarchies and even their cosmogony.


C'mon there are obscenity rules here - you can't start talking about drawings of bodies that include the subject's cosmogony!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> C'mon there are obscenity rules here - you can't start talking about drawings of bodies that include the subject's cosmogony!


 
the candieu could not understand why the whites they met wouldn't draw on their bodies... why rthey chosed to not distinguish from nature. they really needed their art.
they also thought reproduction and birth to be repulsive. they practiced abortion on large scale and adopt individuals from conquered tribes as family.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Speaking of Ebay madness and artisanal bikes ... behold
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Ritchey...ryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Speaking of Ebay madness and artisanal bikes ... behold
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Ritchey...ryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


HOLEY MOLEY!!!

webike4fun and profit.......


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Speaking of Ebay madness and artisanal bikes ... behold
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Ritchey...ryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


the fun part is him justifying the price... convincing someone to buy it.

i say.. "relist".


----------



## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

MFer. That was on the SD craiglsist for $450 not three months ago and I barely missed out on it.

Damn


----------



## mojo_matic (Jul 15, 2007)

Heck, if I had more money than sense, and the frame was 60-62 cm, I would be all over it!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

I have a nicer one that I'll sell for half the price!


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Boy named SSue said:


> MFer. That was on the SD craiglsist for $450 not three months ago and I barely missed out on it.
> 
> Damn


who knew it was worth so much


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

hollister said:


> who knew it was worth so much


I'd let this one go for $12,500.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I'd let this one go for $12,500.


thats my favorite grouppo (wheelset is killing me though)

but BP's is only half the cost


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

I think he needs to change his user name to webike4profit.


----------



## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

This will be even more fun than the 12g bs ritchey auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HUTCH-AEROSPEED...ryZ42310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
auction started less than 10 hours ago at $9.99


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*This thread has been a little slow lately*

Time to wake it up 

I'll take a dozen please  Hope I didn't out this for anybody 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Component-...ryZ56197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

I'll say it again....it's good for all of us that are involved in VRC. Not many markets or brokers guaranteeing their customers that kind of return on their investments


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

elrancho66 said:


> anyone interested in buying it before they go out to auction contact me


LOL!! I'm sure the moderators will be contacting you soon


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Time to wake it up
> 
> I'll take a dozen please  Hope I didn't out this for anybody
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Component-...ryZ56197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Whats the point of throwing in the shifters? If you paid that much for a pair of derailleurs are you really gonna ride them?:madman: LMAO People from cali have weird ideas of what things are worth. And the sad thing is sometimes they actually get what they are asking....


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

lucifer said:


> People from cali have weird ideas of what things are worth.


Dude, he's probably paying $4000 for a one room studio in SF, of course his perception is warped. It's all relative.....



lucifer said:


> Whats the point of throwing in the shifters?


LOL!! maybe whoever buys them can sell the shifters for 500.00  



lucifer said:


> If you paid that much for a pair of derailleurs are you really gonna ride them?


I would wear them as jewlery or maybe some nice earrings for the wife


----------



## elrancho66 (May 31, 2007)

*no harm intended*

Knock it off elranch. No for sale spam in the forums.


----------



## elrancho66 (May 31, 2007)

2 more sets of paul's on ebay right now, 1 set started out and the insanity level!


----------

