# Is there something wrong with "riding like a girl?"



## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

I have a friend who says she doesn't *want* to "ride like a girl." I'm quite happy riding like a girl *looks down at boobs...looks further south* because I AM a girl. Maybe this will change once I have more than 2 months of riding under my bra, but I guess I'm curious if there is some reason that I should ever not want to ride like the girl that I am?

I've heard people say "you're riding like a girl" and it's obviously meant as a derogatory statement, at least in the case of a man saying it to another man, and quite possibly of a woman saying it to another woman.

Opinions?

I want socks, stickers, etc that say "ride like a girl." But if I'm gonna look like a big dumbass for putting those things on my person/bike/truck, then....yanno....

Also, anyone know a good place to get those clings that you can put on your car and not have to get the razor blade out to remove?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Guys will say that to rag on thier buddies. 

Some gals get really offended by the statement but I think there's an equal amount of us that embrace it. After all, Ride Like a Girl means you can ride like (insert list of favorite top competitor mountain bike female here)


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm guilty of becoming pretty irked when I'm told "you're riding like a girl**". Men use it as an insult so why should I take it as a compliment? Perhaps I've issue more with the latent misogyny of our culture in general, which turns phrases such as these into derogatory statements. 

On a side note, I've no idea why any woman would ever refer to herself as a diva. Who would want to describe themselves as being high-maintenance, haughty and spoiled?

**granted, no one has ever said this to me, but if they were to, I'd imagine it wouldn't go over well.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Haha...a diva I'm not. High maintenance, maybe a bit in certain circumstances because I have high expectations of others, but a diva? Nah.

I'm waiting for someone to tell me I ride like a girl. I hope I can remember to simply look at them sweetly and say, with a big smile on my face, "thank you" instead of telling them to bite my big ass. And I know that I said that I am ok with riding like a girl and I want to own that...but I can still see where the mean-spiritedness of someone saying it would absolutely piss me off. 

Am I now a hypocrite?


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

This seems almost like a troll post, but okay, fine. 
Let's for a moment dismiss use of "ride like a girl" as an insult, and just look at what it means. 

Women do tend to approach athletics in a way that is different from men. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad, sometimes it is just different. To gain skills and strength as a rider you will have to self-evaluate to determine where you lie on that spectrum. Understand how your gender affects your approach and use it to your advantage if you can.

*As a side note, the origin of the word Diva is Latin, meaning goddess. The "spoiled" thing is denotative now, but originally was connotative, and initially derived from the idea that a goddess wouldn't stoop to certain lows. The word Diva generally only has positive meaning if one avoids the modern corruption of the word.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

As long as your riding who cares _how_ you're doing it.

Rides like a girl:



















I could spend all day posting examples of "riding like a girl". 'Nuf said. 

P.S. There is nothing wrong with embracing your femininity while enjoying the sport you love.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Not a troll post. Just trying to get some perspectives on what this phrase means to other women.

I completely agree with you regarding the way men and women approach athletics. In fact, that's something I'm sort of trying to bring to the attention of a meetup group I am involved with in my area, with beginner rides really being beginner rides, etc. Anyway....

I don't typically think that "I'm riding like a girl" *while* I'm out riding. At that point, I'm *just* riding and out there having a good time. I am proud of the fact that as a woman I *am* out there riding...and as a plus size woman, even more so (to show others that they can do it too). And I'm really proud of the improvement I've seen in my skills just over the past couple of weeks. I don't have to walk as much and am trying things I was scared to try not long ago.

*as a side note, you write beautifully and I love that you use words that many don't.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

That second photo looks like so much FUN!!!!


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

Bad Jenny I hope you've changed out your bearings since that drop 



chuky said:


> *As a side note, the origin of the word Diva is Latin, meaning goddess. The "spoiled" thing is denotative now, but originally was connotative, and initially derived from the idea that a goddess wouldn't stoop to certain lows. The word Diva generally only has positive meaning if one avoids the modern corruption of the word.


I agree with you on the roots of the word; diva historically has been somewhat dynamic in it's use and meaning. I gleaned my interpretation from from the operatic definition; a diva is a talented, divine performer, who may exhibit such behaviors outlined by my previous post.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

athalliah said:


> Bad Jenny I hope you've changed out your bearings since that drop


Ha ha, not me but thanks for the vote of confidence.

First pic is Rachel Lloyd, water jump pic is Marla Streb.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*From Baseball*

When I was a kid if someone said that you throw like a girl it is because, while one MAY be throwing, ones' mechanics are very bad, poorly developed, lack flow, commitment, and have little power. The phrase came from watching girls throw a ball who don't have much skill or power. Inexperienced ball throwers all demonstrated this behavior and by huge margins the most inexperienced ball players were girls. It wasn't rocket science. It was used descriptively, and as a negative, in a competitive sport. Either way, at the time and given the statistics, it was apt.

When I was just out of college I coached teen athletes in baseball, swimming, and volleyball. I recall a young teen girl in her "coltish" stage throwing a ball and she was just awful and it WAS pretty funny. She was good egg, though, and I used her to demonstrate the 4 main steps in the mechanics of throwing. In her very next throw she just about buried the boy who was catching her. It wasn't very accurate but it had real heat and everyone was amazed. She never threw like a girl again.

The occurance of a boy who didn't know how to throw a ball by the time they were in their teens was not all that common. Most generally the nascent days of their baseball were long past so learning such a fundamental hadn't taken place in public. As such it was an anomaly and stuck out. You can imagine teen boys jumping on the poor novice. In mountain biking there is a fair amount of learning done in public and much is done by gradual, learn-as-you-go, and unstructured methods for all to see.

By the way, for what it is worth, I don't ever think of Rachel or Marla as people who "ride like girls"; they ride like mountain bikers.:thumbsup:


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## msrutzie (Nov 14, 2006)

Embrace it! I have a Ride Like A Girl sticker on all my snowboards, my helmet and the top tube of my bike, all of which are pimped out in pink. Recently in the NorCal forum the guys created a pink sticker for me that said You Wish You Could Ride Like A Girl. I bill myself as the perfect Tom-Girl (part tom-boy with a nice blend of girly girl). You're right to be proud of who you are and how you ride. So many gals don't ever see the dirt. In a male dominated sport I think any female that rides deserves to rock it however she may choose. The folks that roll their eyes at the phrase or the pink take life too seriously. It's become a joke amongst me and my riding buddies and, half the fun, is the playful banter that accompanies any ride. 

On a side note, a few people have told me the Ride Like A Girl saying has a dirty (in a sexual kind of way) meaning to it but I have yet to find anything that proves that.


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

msrutzie said:


> The folks that roll their eyes at the phrase or the pink take life too seriously.


Alight, this will sound like I'm trolling but it's a genuine statement/question.

I don't like pink, I think it's an awful color. I dislike that most bike products that are marketed to women are barbie pink; just because I'm female doesn't mean that the color is visually appealing to me. I can be girly if I want but it doesn't mean I am compelled to advertise that I'm a girl by painting everything I own in pink. Why the need to separate yourself from your male cycling counterparts?

For the record, I really like orange. If orange were the WSD color de jour; I'd be 10xs more prone to buy WSD products.

I forgot to add that the sticker your friends made for you is pretty rad.


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## msrutzie (Nov 14, 2006)

athalliah said:


> Alight, this will sound like I'm trolling but it's a genuine statement/question.
> 
> I don't like pink, I think it's an awful color. I dislike that most bike products that are marketed to women are barbie pink; just because I'm female doesn't mean that the color is visually appealing to me. I can be girly if I want but it doesn't mean I am compelled to advertise that I'm a girl by painting everything I own in pink. Why the need to separate yourself from your male cycling counterparts?
> 
> ...


Pink has been my favorite color since I popped out of the womb. I'm lovin' that it's Breast Cancer Awareness Month and pink is EVERYWHERE. For years I had trouble finding anything pink. That's the beauty of it though. There are bikes in all colors that appeal to a wide range of consumer. I do think the feminizing of male dominated sports has appealled to women who might have not tried the sport otherwise. I know many a girl who bought their mountain bike or snowboard based on it's 'cute' factor whether that means it's color, use of flowers or whatever appeals to these girls. My guess is the whole pink trend was really used to grow market share and, at that, I think they've been successful. From the reports I hear, marketing a new bike to a male consumer who had been riding for years was 'in the bag'. Trying to get new users, specifically the untapped market of female riders, required a new approach. In a few years the pink fad will have faded and another color will be the new black. If it's orange you'll be lovin' it and I'll be buying used gear off CL. 

WRT separating myself from my male cycling counterparts that would be a fun topic for a constructive debate. I am different. I am female. I don't ride the same, think the same or act the same. I admit to playing it up and taking it over the top. Why? Because it's fun, at least with my group of friends. It's become my signature style along with my playful banter. It's what makes me me. What's great about being a woman is we can rock it no matter what style we choose. We have more options then men. So, while I can change a tire with the best of them, my female status usually means a guy will offer to do it for me and that ROCKS! I'm empowered enough to know how to wrench but not arrogant enough to turn down help. In many ways, I think being a woman is so much better than being a man and I love playing it up and announcing my differences while I hang with the fast boys. :thumbsup:


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

athalliah said:


> Why the need to separate yourself from your male cycling counterparts?


But just for the sake of argument, couldn't the same be said for anything that separates a person from their male cycling counterparts, other than the obvious fact that we're women?

I'll be honest - I LOVE being different. And I love the things that make me different - not only the way I think, but my outward appearance. I adore that "oh my god that woman has an eyebrow ring and garish hair" look I get when people meet me for the first time. I'm even starting to kind of like the "holy sh!t look at that fat chick on the bike!" look.

I so badly want the bright orange Gary Fisher because it is SOOOO me, but it just doesn't fit me as well as my GT. So maybe I can make the GT more me...some well placed stickers...maybe a little purple (since it's my fave color)...whatever.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

athalliah said:


> For the record, I really like orange.


Have I got the bike for you...


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## msrutzie (Nov 14, 2006)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I'll be honest - I LOVE being different. And I love the things that make me different - not only the way I think, but my outward appearance. I adore that "oh my god that woman has an eyebrow ring and garish hair" look I get when people meet me for the first time. I'm even starting to kind of like the "holy sh!t look at that fat chick on the bike!" look. QUOTE]
> 
> You and I would probably get along well. :thumbsup:
> 
> In high school, when most girls were desperately trying to fit in and be accepted, I drove a hot pink VW Bug with a custom license plate that said Yu B Yu. It's all about being proud of who we are as individuals and embracing what makes us unique without worrying about what anyone else might think.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

msrutzie said:


> ineedtrainingwheels said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be honest - I LOVE being different. And I love the things that make me different - not only the way I think, but my outward appearance. I adore that "oh my god that woman has an eyebrow ring and garish hair" look I get when people meet me for the first time. I'm even starting to kind of like the "holy sh!t look at that fat chick on the bike!" look. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*All this stuff is easier to take*

if you are comfortable with who you are.


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## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

Compare female athletes with men athletes. Sure, there are a few cases in which women are better, but most of the time, male athletes are superior. 

I saw the top girl racer in my state in a race, and thought she was really good. My friend, who is just getting back into riding, beat her in the timing chart.
Yes, there are many good female riders that would kick my ass, but compared to male riders of the same competitive level, they are "inferior".
Why are there no women in the TDF? Have you compared the lap times between the top 3 places men and women in the previous Olympic XC race? Why was the women course different from the men's in the BMX race? etc etc
inb4 you start going at me with a misogyny speech


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Garlock said:


> blah, blah, blah


Um, yeah thanks. I was enjoying this thread...

Can we get back to empowering women now?


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

I really do appreciate your candid and thoughtful reply.



msrutzie said:


> I know many a girl who bought their mountain bike or snowboard based on it's 'cute' factor whether that means it's color, use of flowers or whatever appeals to these girls. My guess is the whole pink trend was really used to grow market share and, at that, I think they've been successful. From the reports I hear, marketing a new bike to a male consumer who had been riding for years was 'in the bag'. Trying to get new users, specifically the untapped market of female riders, required a new approach. In a few years the pink fad will have faded and another color will be the new black. If it's orange you'll be lovin' it and I'll be buying used gear off CL.


I agree; as does my SO, who works at a shop, whom I think enjoys the look on my face when he reminds me that pink sells. Pink may be in and eighties are back, but you're not about to see pink parts on my bike or a can of Aqua Net in my bathroom. Kudos to you if you're into that sorta thing but count me out.

I've a friend who lives in your area of the woods who sends me pink crap and stuff with hearts on it for my birthday. She finds my disdain for pink humorous. I should give her your address 



chuky said:


> Have I got the bike for you...


o. m.g. If I hadn't already bought the new Terremoto...sigh. Is that your bike?

_Anyway_, I wasn't trying to discourage anyone here like that ass, Garlock. Pink, orange, yellow, black, poo brown; don't care, just ride your bike and have fun.

Ride like a hermaphrodite!


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Garlock said:


> Compare female athletes with men athletes. Sure, there are a few cases in which women are better, but most of the time, male athletes are superior.
> 
> I saw the top girl racer in my state in a race, and thought she was really good. My friend, who is just getting back into riding, beat her in the timing chart.
> Yes, there are many good female riders that would kick my ass, but compared to male riders of the same competitive level, they are "inferior".
> ...


I probably should just keep my mouth shut, and I'm probably being an enabler, but me being me...

Could you please tell me how any of the spew that just came out of your mouth has anything to do with the original question? Are you saying that "Yes, Jodey, in my esteemed opinion, there IS indeed something wrong with riding like a girl! That because you don't have a penis, you are less than those of us who do?"

Make the connection for me...cuz I'm just not seein' it. 

Me and my vagina thank you.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

athalliah said:


> Ride like a hermaphrodite!


+1

That is the freakin' funniest thing I've heard all day. I want a sticker that says that! Of course I'd probably get sh!t for it...

But thank you.


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## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

--------------

Girls who ride like girls are fine, men who ride like girls are inferior to their friends, according to the term use. As for my previous post, I was just pointing things out, in case you still lived in your little box in which sexes are treated equally.

It's not really a misogenyst term as such. "You run like a fat kid", isn't actually insulting fat kids, it just implies that you run slower than the average person, because most fat kids are indeed slow. Same thing for women.

There is nothing wrong with riding like a girl, I even have a water bottle that says "ride like a girl". 

etc etc


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Garlock said:


> --------------
> 
> Girls who ride like girls are fine, men who ride like girls are inferior to their friends, according to the term use. As for my previous post, I was just pointing things out, in case you still lived in your little box in which sexes are treated equally.
> 
> ...


OMG. I can't stop laughing. It's not equal treatment of sexes...perhaps the lack of respect of the differences in people that makes your response so...nonsensical. I appreciate your concern about me living in my little box where sexes are treated equally. I grew up fat and jewish in a small southern town. I never got a chance to live in a little box. *plays her violin*

"You run like a fat kid" IS indeed insulting fat kids. It implies way more than just running slower than the average person. It implies that because you are fat, and not like most other people, you are LESS...inferior to those who are not fat. I can't think of an instance, even from one overweight person to another, where saying "you run like a fat kid" is anything BUT an insult.

"You ride like a girl," OTOH, depending upon the persons involved, can be taken as something other than an insult.

And please..."I even have a water bottle that says 'ride like a girl'"...that's almost like saying "I have friends who are fat/jewish/insert your preference here."


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

Garlock, you must be very young to make such comments.


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## msrutzie (Nov 14, 2006)

Garlock said:


> I was just pointing things out, in case you still lived in your little box in which sexes are treated equally.


Trust me, few people truly believe that women, people of color or anyone different than a rich white male are treated equally in this country. We're watching this happen right before our eyes with this election. This thread isn't about equality.

I don't think anyone fails to recognize there are physical differences between males and females which is evident in athletics.

Your post appears to be an attempt to stir the pot.

Ladies, like a dog draw to horse poop, let's just 'leave it' and walk away.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

msrutzie said:


> Trust me, few people truly believe that women, people of color or anyone different than a rich white male are treated equally in this country. We're watching this happen right before our eyes with this election. This thread isn't about equality.
> 
> I don't think anyone fails to recognize there are physical differences between males and females which is evident in athletics.
> 
> ...


I'll walk away...cuz I'm going to find stickers and stuff to trick out my bike and truck. Why? Because I'm proud to ride like a girl. Hell...maybe I'll even make that my next tat.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

Garlock said:


> --------------
> etc etc


The water bottle, ah well, that makes it all okay. :thumbsup:


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## CotterPin (Sep 28, 2004)

Inneedoftrainingwheels - if you really want an orange bike you should look into having your bike powder coated...you could get just about any color you'd like. In my neck of the woods (equidistant from Chicago and Milwaukee) we can get a bike re-done for about $150. For the record I'm not fond of pink either. I leave the pink to my son (see avatar pic)

A great source for one-off custom bumper stickers is http://www.zazzle.com/custom/bumperstickers. Get creative and let us see your new bumper sticker.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

msrutzie said:


> WRT separating myself from my male cycling counterparts that would be a fun topic for a constructive debate. I am different. I am female. I don't ride the same, think the same or act the same. I admit to playing it up and taking it over the top. Why? Because it's fun, at least with my group of friends. It's become my signature style along with my playful banter. It's what makes me me. What's great about being a woman is we can rock it no matter what style we choose. We have more options then men. So, while I can change a tire with the best of them, my female status usually means a guy will offer to do it for me and that ROCKS! I'm empowered enough to know how to wrench but not arrogant enough to turn down help. In many ways, I think being a woman is so much better than being a man and I love playing it up and announcing my differences while I hang with the fast boys. :thumbsup:


Ditto here. I like pink bikes, pink bike parts, pink riding gear (assuming they're all high quality - like pink Chris King hubs on my singlespeed or pink ODI lock ons or whatever). I would never advocate buying low end crap because it's pink, but when I can get what I want AND get it in pink - I'm all over it. And it admittedly IS because at this point I do like to stand out from the guys. In full armor there's not much to identify me as a female. And one day I was racing DH and there was a parent with a young girl watching on the side of the trail and they said "look at this guy riding through those rocks" and I thought that little girl should know that she can ride technical stuff too. It made me sad to think that she might not even recognize the handful of female racers as women. And at that point I started collecting lots of pink bike parts and putting pink ribbons in my hair and glitter eyeshadow on for races and all that silly stuff.

I admit it - women don't have the natural strength, lung capacity, or hormones pushing them to take the big risks that men do. It can be frustrating, particularly when some jerk likes to throw negative comments in your face or tell you what they think you can't do because you're a woman. So yeah, maybe I was raised in a little box where I thought I could do whatever I put my mind to when I grew up, and sometimes there have been harsh realities that I've had to deal with over the years. But I think it's just plain wrong to tell women that they're slow and weak just because they are women. I think _*most people*_ are slow and weak because they don't exercise, not because they are female, old, whatever. This whole "well, you're just genetically screwed" logic doesn't do anything positive for anyone - it seems to just perpetuate a defeatist attitude.

So maybe you can say that I just like living in my little box, as Garlock likes to call it, but I don't care. I know I still have plenty of room for improvement and thinking negatively about what my genetic limitations may be is certainly not going to help anything. Maybe there are things I can't and never will be able to do - but I'm going to continue to believe there is no such thing as impossible. And you can eat my pink, glittery dust if you feel the need to rain on my parade.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

That is such an awesome idea! I'd totally go for bright purple or extremely obnoxious green.

Why didn't I think of Zazzle? Great idea!


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

And now I want to create something that says "eat my pink, glittery dust!" Cuz that just rocks.


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## msrutzie (Nov 14, 2006)

connie said:


> And you can eat my pink, glittery dust if you feel the need to rain on my parade.


Rock on Connie! You are an inspiration to all women. :thumbsup:


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I want socks, stickers, etc that say "ride like a girl." But if I'm gonna look like a big dumbass for putting those things on my person/bike/truck, then....yanno....
> 
> Also, anyone know a good place to get those clings that you can put on your car and not have to get the razor blade out to remove?


There are companies that will make you custom rotors (if you have disc brakes) that say anything you want... I'm sure "ride like a girl" is well within their capabilities!


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

Awesome post, c.



connie said:


> Ditto here. I like pink bikes, pink bike parts, pink riding gear (assuming they're all high quality - like pink Chris King hubs on my singlespeed or pink ODI lock ons or whatever). I would never advocate buying low end crap because it's pink, but when I can get what I want AND get it in pink - I'm all over it. And it admittedly IS because at this point I do like to stand out from the guys. In full armor there's not much to identify me as a female. And one day I was racing DH and there was a parent with a young girl watching on the side of the trail and they said "look at this guy riding through those rocks" and I thought that little girl should know that she can ride technical stuff too. It made me sad to think that she might not even recognize the handful of female racers as women. And at that point I started collecting lots of pink bike parts and putting pink ribbons in my hair and glitter eyeshadow on for races and all that silly stuff.


I totally understand your rationale here. Granted, I'm nowhere near as fast as you (and I don't think our buddy Garlock is either); I love getting to the bottom of a DH run and popping off my helmet, revealing my gender. Surprise, I'm a chick!


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## Swthrtsuzy (Sep 1, 2008)

This is the best thread I've read in a really long time. I've been told that I ride like a girl, and I just shrug and say something snarky about how that's very appropriate since I AM a girl. It's similar to the attitudes I get when I roll up in my truck and people see me getting out. Most don't expect a fat chick dressed in a business suit hopping out of a lifted pickup with a grille guard. It's extremely empowering to boggle some *******'s mind.

Ineedtrainingwheels - I agree. I LOVE getting the "zomg it's a fat girl riding through that rock garden!" looks. It just makes my day. Thank you for starting this thread. If you find any websites with great girlie stuff to trick out a bike (and truck!) please pass it along! 

I just want to say that I'm a newbie to (any) this sport and all the knowledge and information that you all pass on through this forum has been invaluable. Thanks so much for sharing your experience with the world. It's great to know that there are so many women out there destroying the old "men men men" mindsets and giving girls (like myself) who may not have had the courage to try this incredible sport the incentive to do so.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

If someone calls you out on riding like a girl and it bothers you, you could always quip back that at least you don't trash talk like a d!(k.

(sorry, snark setting turned back down to simmer...)

P.S. Don't know how else we're supposed to ride if we're women. I plan on riding like a girl for as long as possible!


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

Gosh, I am so happy my wife has more expensive bike than me....


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

In my town "Ride Like A Girl" is a brand name and mentioning Ride Like A Girl at almost every bike shop in town will get you at the very least special attention and very likely a good discount.

We have Ride Like A Girl Jersey's, t-shirts, and stickers.










Spring of 09 will be the 10 year anniversary of Ride Like A Girl in Austin.


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

In a way, this is an unfair post because in mountain biking, it is a game of numbers. At races, I race in the Sport category. I am lucky if there is one other woman in my cat. The counterpart men's Sport category usually has upwards of 30 racers. That is a 30 to 1 ratio at a low-attendance race. So, of course men are going to be more competitive, there is just more competition. However, *many* of the women I know who ride are faster/tougher than the average guy.

Men are clearly more drawn to the sport than women. However, in the other sport in which I partake, jumping horses, women dominate, so clearly there are more advanced women than men by far--it's just basic math. And a lot of the guys I ride with think that jumping things on horses is scarier than jumping things on a bike--I don't feel this way because I grew up riding horses and biking is fairly new for me.

In summary, I do not think that women are wimpy. There are many social reasons why the phrase "____ like a girl" is a negative statement, but there are also racial, antisemitic, xenophobic, and homophobic phrases used on a daily basis in every facet of life. Awareness and education are key and I think it's valid to bring up the point every once in a while.



Garlock said:


> Compare female athletes with men athletes. Sure, there are a few cases in which women are better, but most of the time, male athletes are superior.
> 
> I saw the top girl racer in my state in a race, and thought she was really good. My friend, who is just getting back into riding, beat her in the timing chart.
> Yes, there are many good female riders that would kick my ass, but compared to male riders of the same competitive level, they are "inferior".
> ...


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## AdventureQuest (May 29, 2004)

athalliah said:



> I love getting to the bottom of a DH run and popping off my helmet, revealing my gender.


Like Batman only if he rode a bike instead of the batcar and if he was a she. :rockon: Like Batgirl because she does ride a bike only not a mtb but a motorcycle with a sidecar probably because alot of chicks have trouble with balance.


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

However the use of the term, it still leads to the implication that there is something lesser about women, which implicates women in a submissive role. By writing it off as "well, society is just like that so it's ok," is ignoring and continuing the very issue that we are discussing here. That, it is *not* ok, whether or not it is something many view as a truth. Remember, it was not too long ago that certain races were viewed as inferior and that was *standard,* just like "ride like a girl" seems to be standard. Don't forget, a lot of these girls finesse the rock gardens and blast through turns and over jumps with much less trouble than the guys.

And no, I do *not* live in a box, but I do what I can to get equality for myself and others.



Garlock said:


> --------------
> 
> Girls who ride like girls are fine, men who ride like girls are inferior to their friends, according to the term use. As for my previous post, I was just pointing things out, in case you still lived in your little box in which sexes are treated equally.
> 
> ...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

AdventureQuest said:


> y because alot of chicks have trouble with balance.


??????


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

AdventureQuest said:


> Like Batman only if he rode a bike instead of the batcar and if he was a she. :rockon: Like Batgirl because she does ride a bike only not a mtb but a motorcycle with a sidecar probably because alot of chicks have trouble with balance.


Suuup, Ainsworthy?


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## Kcnflman (Jun 30, 2008)

How ironic,,,,,,,,,,,"rides like a girl" is my Indian name..


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## ThePinkBarron (Aug 28, 2008)

formica said:


> ??????


Oh you didnt know? having boobs makes you have poor side to side balance


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

athalliah said:


> Alight, this will sound like I'm trolling but it's a genuine statement/question.
> 
> I don't like pink, I think it's an awful color. I dislike that most bike products that are marketed to women are barbie pink; just because I'm female doesn't mean that the color is visually appealing to me. I can be girly if I want but it doesn't mean I am compelled to advertise that I'm a girl by painting everything I own in pink. Why the need to separate yourself from your male cycling counterparts?
> 
> ...


Got to agree with the pink thing. I LOVE black and blue. Really!! My two favorite colors. Though I'm not fond of bruises.

As for the ride like a girl thing. I was raised with being proud to be a girl. It meant I got more choices then boys. I could choose pants or dresses, climbing trees or playing with dolls, etc. While the boys got teased for being 'girlie'. When I got pregnant with my first of three daughters, I made up my mind that they would be allowed the same choices. Now the oldest is working on becoming a chef (the same choice the middle daughter had planned on) and the youngest is going for an art degree when she graduates high school.

If you want to play with peoples' minds, try my trick. I tell people not to call me a lady unless I'm dressed like a lady. The usual response is a perplexed look. I generally explain that the way I was raised 'ladies' weren't allowed to swear, make rude body noises, slouch, or be crude and I like the freedom to do any of those things I choose. You'd be amazed by how many guys give me thoughtful looks and smiles in response. I consider it my way of pushing boundaries and creating new thought patterns. Isn't that part of what be a female is all about nowadays?:thumbsup:

BTW my oldest and I attended a 'Divas Night' at a local bike shop. (an event to help encourage women to not only get out and ride, but to know how to take care of their bikes by themselves) One of the gifts for attending was Ride Like a Girl sports bottle.

Fiona


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

My ex-bf and I ride together often. I just called him and asked him if he was riding tomorrow night with the guys, and if this was a guys-only ride. He said, "No, we welcome women. SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT ACT LIKE WOMEN."

I said, "Uhm, well, guess what? I am a woman and I act like a woman..."

This, of course, proceeded into an argument and he decided that I am too much of a ***** to ride with his friends, so I'm no longer allowed on his ride.

I went ahead and called another couple of friends and organized a ride with at least one other guy, none of whom have any problem with riding with, well, WOMEN WHO ACT LIKE WOMEN.

*phbbt*


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

creseis said:


> He said, "No, we welcome women. SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT ACT LIKE WOMEN."
> 
> I said, "Uhm, well, guess what? I am a woman and I act like a woman..."
> 
> ...


*phbbt* is right. Anyone catch the last page of this month's powder magazine about how a girl can stay single in a ski town?


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey, I lived in a ski town for nearly 4 years and I was single the entire time. But no, I have not read the article, now I am curious!


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

creseis said:


> However the use of the term, it still leads to the implication that there is something lesser about women, which implicates women in a *submissive* *role*.


Actually to be precise, in this context it's being used to suggest that women generally have inferior riding skills to men. Submissiveness doesn't even enter into the picture. You're either confusing the two, or lumping them together under one umbrella, which is unfair and frankly irrational.

Respect isn't a handout, it's earned. So if this term is offensive to anyone, the answer is simple: _ride better, _and spare your friends the diatriabes. Your ride speaks for itself; whether or not you like what it's saying.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

TVC15 said:


> Actually to be precise, in this context it's being used to suggest that women generally have inferior riding skills to men. Submissiveness doesn't even enter into the picture. You're either confusing the two, or lumping them together under one umbrella, which is unfair and frankly irrational.
> 
> Respect isn't a handout, it's earned. So if this term is offensive to anyone, the answer is simple: _ride better, _and spare your friends the diatriabes. Your ride speaks for itself; whether or not you like what it's saying.


I agree with you on the first paragraph - submissiveness =/= riding skills. That is not a logical connection.

But your second statement is total crap.

I DO ride well. I generally get told that I DON'T ride like a girl and that's what's so freaking WRONG about the whole thing. _*I am a girl. Therefore I ride like a girl!*_ - even if you think I'm riding "like a guy". A girl who knows how to ride well/ride aggressively/better than the average man is still riding like a girl. It is not taking away from her female-ness because she's learned to ride well. I don't know many women who have the goal of no longer being considered a woman.

It's a very backhanded compliment to tell a woman she "doesn't ride like a girl". Yes, most of us get that the main intent of the statement is a compliment on riding skills. But it gets into insinuating negative things too. *I don't want to be a man. I want to be a girl that kicks butt on a bike.* There is a big difference!!


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

I ride like a wildebeest.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

catzilla said:


> I ride like a wildebeest.


Ha!  Now I'm picturing a wildebeest doing trials moves in a parking lot...


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

TVC15 said:


> Respect isn't a handout, it's earned. So if this term is offensive to anyone, the answer is simple: _ride better, _and spare your friends the diatriabes. Your ride speaks for itself; whether or not you like what it's saying.


Could you please explain what you mean by your second paragraph? I'm not liking the way I'm taking it. So before I go and get all offended, I'd like to know your intent.

I think I'm just gonna ride like Jodey. Fat, cute, having fun on her bike...and looking at all the nice mountain biking legs and asses that pass me while I'm riding like the girl I am. And at some point in the future, maybe I'll be passing people and they can look at my big ass and my getting-nicer-by-the-minute-mountain biking legs.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm still chuckling over "ride like a hermaphrodite." I love it!

And I love the responses this thread has gotten. Thank you ladies (and men) for your perspectives on this. 

It has helped me understand that I can ride however the hell I please...girl, boy, wildebeest, etc...and not worry about it as long as I ride.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

connie said:


> I agree with you on the first paragraph - submissiveness =/= riding skills. That is not a logical connection.


Well I'm glad we agree at least in part.



connie said:


> But your second statement is total crap.
> 
> I DO ride well. I generally get told that I DON'T ride like a girl and that's what's so freaking WRONG about the whole thing. _*I am a girl. Therefore I ride like a girl!*_ - even if you think I'm riding "like a guy". A girl who knows how to ride well/ride aggressively/better than the average man is still riding like a girl. It is not taking away from her female-ness because she's learned to ride well. I don't know many women who have the goal of no longer being considered a woman.


You're taking a general statement that comments upon a reality that you (me, and all of our biking sisters) may not like, and applying it to yourself specifically, personally, and negatively. That comment being given to you is being bestowed as an exceptionally positive statement, and nothing less. You're not "no longer being considered a woman" when it's said to you, you're being _appreciated_ as one who kicks ass. Honestly. And without being patronized. One would hope that would be welcomed.



connie said:


> It's a very backhanded compliment to tell a woman she "doesn't ride like a girl". Yes, most of us get that the main intent of the statement is a compliment on riding skills. But it gets into insinuating negative things too. *I don't want to be a man. I want to be a girl that kicks butt on a bike.* There is a big difference!!


I trust you are in fact a girl with all of her femaleness that really does kick butt on a bike. So, mission accomplished. That's a good thing. 

But we gotta face facts. On _average_, vastly fewer girls do so for no apparent reason that I can discern. There's no physical explanation for the skill disparities _often seen_ on the trail, so until that's corrected the "rides like a girl" comment is a reality that we're gonna have to accept. That said, I think we as a gender are better off working to ride better, rather than lamenting facts that create phrases that we resent; much less distorting them into completely unrelated gender-political fights; and worst of all, promoting the notion that being patronized somehow amounts to equality.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> Could you please explain what you mean by your second paragraph? I'm not liking the way I'm taking it. So before I go and get all offended, I'd like to know your intent.


I like your reasonableness.  It's very refreshing. 

I think I did so in my reply to Connie. If I had to explain further, I guess what it all boils down to is the fact that I just can't stand patronization. It just offends so me deeply. Much more so than gender insensitivity ever could. Hope that helps.

I'm off to ride my bike too.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

connie said:


> I DO ride well. I generally get told that I DON'T ride like a girl and that's what's so freaking WRONG about the whole thing. _*I am a girl. Therefore I ride like a girl!*_


Amen. That was sort of my point about posting the pics of Rachel and Marla tearing it up. Often, "you ride like a girl" has a negative connotation. We are all out riding like girls, because we are. Whether we are out rippin' or on a cruiser ride, doesn't matter. So put a spin on it and be proud to "ride like a girl", becuase girls shred. :rockon:


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

I always thought it was a good thing to ride like a girl. I want one of those sweatshirts that says Ride like a Girl on it. And when I told my now ex boyfriend that, he was amazed that I would want such a thing because to him, riding like a girl is a bad thing. Except I AM a girl, which is what I told him. 
I have a sticker on a helmet that I wrecked in a crash that says "you've just been passed by a girl". One of my teamies gave me that before we did the 24 hours of Moab a few years ago.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

TVC15 said:


> But we gotta face facts. On average, vastly fewer girls do so for no apparent reason that I can discern. There's no physical explanation for the skill disparities often seen on the trail, so until that's corrected the "rides like a girl" comment is a reality that we're gonna have to accept. That said, I think we as a gender are better off working to ride better, rather than lamenting facts that create phrases that we resent; much less distorting them into completely unrelated gender-political fights; and worst of all, promoting the notion that being patronized somehow amounts to equality..


Well, for starters, I see a number of reasons that most women don't ride well. I believe that any woman who is motivated to do so can learn to ride well with proper instruction and training (I've seen plenty of it first hand in clinics). Part of the problem IMHO is that most women hear things like "ride like a girl" in a negative context and assume they are just not capable of learning to do a sport aggressively and in a skilled manner, so they putter around, assuming that's what they are "supposed" to do. (Not to mention the number of women who just didn't start at the young age most men did, or have family obligations that cut into riding time, or that many of us learn differently than the average man and the "just do it - like this" that most men offer as instruction isn't exactly effective for most women.)

So basically, while I agree that the answer is that in general, female riders should be putting in more effort to get good instruction and just learn to ride better - I think that using phrases like "ride like a girl" in a negative context just perpetuates the problem by discouraging a lot of women and making them think they're just destined to be slow or unskilled because of their gender. (I fail to see what's patronizing about wishing people would refrain from making negative stereotypical comments.) I mean - how many people are willing to dedicate themselves to something that seems like a lost cause? Right now, the women who break through and push their limits in biking are the ones who have that have that extra determination and stubbornness to challenge the norms regardless of how people seem to think girls are supposed to ride.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

badjenny said:


> Amen. That was sort of my point about posting the pics of Rachel and Marla tearing it up. Often, "you ride like a girl" has a negative connotation. We are all out riding like girls, because we are. Whether we are out rippin' or on a cruiser ride, doesn't matter. So put a spin on it and be proud to "ride like a girl", becuase girls shred. :rockon:


Yep - more like "Did you see Rachel Atherton killing it at the world championship? You WISH you could ride like a girl!" :thumbsup:


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

badjenny said:


> We are all out riding like girls, because we are. Whether we are out rippin' or on a cruiser ride, doesn't matter. So put a spin on it and be proud to "ride like a girl", becuase girls shred. :rockon:


Some do, that's a fact. I know a few women who are legitimate freaking bad asses on a bike with _zero_ gender handicapping. They're badasses _period_. They've bridged the gap, legitimately. They're so good that gender aspect has actually become irrelevant, as it should be. They're the real deal.

That's real equality. That's something to be proud of. And that trumps spin in my mind any day.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

connie said:


> Well, for starters, I see a number of reasons that most women don't ride well. I believe that any woman who is motivated to do so can learn to ride well with proper instruction and training (I've seen plenty of it first hand in clinics). Part of the problem IMHO is that most women hear things like "ride like a girl" in a negative context and assume they are just not capable of learning to do a sport aggressively and in a skilled manner, so they putter around, assuming that's what they are "supposed" to do. (Not to mention the number of women who just didn't start at the young age most men did, or have family obligations that cut into riding time, or that many of us learn differently than the average man and the "just do it - like this" that most men offer as instruction isn't exactly effective for most women.)
> 
> So basically, while I agree that the answer is that in general, female riders should be putting in more effort to get good instruction and just learn to ride better - I think that using phrases like "ride like a girl" in a negative context just perpetuates the problem by discouraging a lot of women and making them think they're just destined to be slow or unskilled because of their gender. (I fail to see what's patronizing about wishing people would refrain from making negative stereotypical comments.)


They're not _destined_ to suck, it's just the current breakdown you generally see out on the trial; and that's what the comment "rides like a girl" recognizes. Like it or not. It's reality.

What's patronizing is expecting people to deny that reality, or to suggest stuff like _"All girls shred,"_ because they don't. All guys don't shred either, but guys generally don't do this pom-pom-cheering-squad-girl-power thing, which is _fundamentally patronizing_ because it celebrates mediocrity and honors half-assedness. To take immense pride in displaying only average skills, or to accept and expect increased respect due to a gender handicap, is to insult ourselves.



connie said:


> I mean - how many people are willing to dedicate themselves to something that seems like a lost cause? Right now, the women who break through and push their limits in biking are the ones who have that have that extra determination and stubbornness to challenge the norms regardless of how people seem to think girls are supposed to ride.


You make some very good points throughout your whole post, Connie. Thank you. I'm gonna need to sit with them a bit, and promise to carefully. On first blush, I think you may expect too little of our biking sisters. Perhaps I expect too much.

It was nice chatting about this though. It's a very interesting discussion.


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## 2WD (Mar 11, 2007)

My husband asked me the other day why I put "Rides like a girl" on my mtbr profile thingy and I said because I am one, just a fact, simple enough.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

TVC15 said:


> They're not _destined_ to suck, it's just the current breakdown you generally see out on the trial; and that's what the comment "rides like a girl" recognizes. Like it or not. It's reality.
> 
> What's patronizing is expecting people to deny that reality, or to suggest stuff like _"All girls shred,"_ because they don't. All guys don't shred either, but guys generally don't do this pom-pom-cheering-squad-girl-power thing, which is _fundamentally patronizing_ because it celebrates mediocrity and honors half-assedness. To take immense pride in displaying only average skills, or to accept and expect increased respect due to a gender handicap, is to insult ourselves..


I certainly never said "all girls shred", but I do feel that to succeed you need to believe that "all girls CAN shred" if they put forth the effort and learned how. True or not, I feel that believing in yourself is the first step towards success.



TVC15 said:


> You make some very good points throughout your whole post, Connie. Thank you. I'm gonna need to sit with them a bit, and promise to carefully. On first blush, I think you may expect too little of our biking sisters. Perhaps I expect too much.
> 
> It was nice chatting about this though. It's a very interesting discussion.


Regarding expectations, I think that really varies person to person with your goals and such. If anything, I feel like I have irrationally high expectations for women - I don't see why there is anything we can't do if we try hard enough and find the right path of learning how to do it. (Though in reality I know there are some strength differences, lung capacity, hormones, etc. that well, at least certainly aren't making things any easier...) But then again, just saying you have great bike skills is a pretty broad subject. As much as I'd love to be amazing at every aspect of riding - endurance, speed, trials, DH, stunts, dirt jumping, etc. - that's just not going to happen. How many riders, male or female are really amazing at all of that? I don't have the time to focus on everything, and in a few areas, don't have the motivation either. As much as I like playing around on small dirt jumps, it's not my thing and I'd rather work on other areas of my riding. And I race DH and Super D, so while I do go on 3-4 hour trail rides, I don't put forth the time and effort to become a fast endurance climber because it's not the part I enjoy the most or have any desire to compete in. This all sounds like making excuses, but I guess where I'm going with it is that if there are women who just have the goal of riding a Rail Trail for fitness, or who just want to enjoy time out on the trail with their friends and don't have a goal of being a technical or fast rider.... that's okay too. I don't know how to roll that into "expectations" but I guess I just don't think "expecting" everyone to reach the pinnacle of their potential makes much sense either.


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Neen said:


> . . . I have a sticker on a helmet that I wrecked in a crash that says "you've just been passed by a girl".


Too funny.

Back in 2005 (during my year-long exile in MI) I was passed by a lady while riding a loop at Island Lake park. I thought I was more mature at the time, but apparently being passed by a woman hurt my pride a bit. I really wanted to pass her, but found that I could barely keep pace. She was always a good 150 feet ahead, no matter how hard I mashed.

So, I reach the trailhead and found that we had parked side by side. I started up a conversation, admitting that I was trying to catch up to her and why, and thanked her for the motivation (my legs were shaking from the effort). She then confessed, in a good-natured way, that she knew what I was up to, and so made it a point to not let me pass her. She was toying with me :thumbsup: . Mmm, mmm, humble-pie.

I don't have a point, Neen's post just reminded me of that ride.


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## Brodiegrrl (Jan 12, 2004)

I ride like a girl. I have fun at it too!


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

My last ride was in a prom dress. Wearing fancy boots and a tiara. And pregnant.

I couldn't have been riding more like a girl had I actually had my ovaries dangling on the outside of my body. 

But, I still rode like a wildebeest.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

TVC15 said:


> But we gotta face facts. On _average_, vastly fewer girls do so for no apparent reason that I can discern. There's no physical explanation for the skill disparities _often seen_ on the trail, so until that's corrected the "rides like a girl" comment is a reality that we're gonna have to accept.


My theory on the massive discrepancy between men and women's general riding abilities is three-fold:

a) Since girls are usually brought up without playing sports, they don't learn how to "redline" at an early enough age for it to become ingrained in them. When I take new friends out for their first rides, I often have them pedal through a field or the parking lot at full tilt. "Stand up and honk on the handlebars." Some of them, literally, just can't. Fear was ingrained into them instead of being physically aggressive.

2) Fewer women are in the sport in general, so there may be a Daphne Bearcloth out there, but she might be busy being a swimmer or a tri-geek.

iii) Women are very supportive. Possibly to a fault. In another thread where someone was getting over the fear of a broken arm, advice was given to never push yourself and to always feel comfortable walking something even if you know you can ride it. While this may be exactly what the girl needed to hear to keep her a happy rider, I don't think this advice would ever be given by a guy to a guy.

I'm not commenting on how we should or should not be, just making observations.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

connie said:


> I don't know how to roll that into "expectations" but I guess I just don't think "expecting" everyone to reach the pinnacle of their potential makes much sense either.


I'm sorry, I was unclear. The expectations to which I referred in my previous post were regarding the effect of _headtrips _that you described before. I don't think societal gender headtrips should shackle or significantly diminish a woman's expections of herself; but they do, and do so routinely and pervasively, as you discussed.

In matters where no gender differences explain a disparity, I expect women to recognize nonsense headtrips for what they are, put them in perspective and set 'em aside; set their goals very high, and judge their accomplishments objectively and individually. You seem to be saying that setting aside a lifetime of headtrips may not be so easy, and that may explain much of the skill disparity seen between the sexes in the mtb scene. I think we're both prolly right.

(This is a pretty complicated topic when you start digging around in it. My apologies if I'm becoming too abstract in the discussion. A lot gets tangled up here ....)

However, in that admittedly muddled spirit, I must also say that I find it more than a little confusing how anyone could resent the negative connotation intended in the phrase "rides like a girl," while simultaneously and enthusiastically taking part in a Girl Power Sisterhood. Either you demand to be judged as an individual, or as part of the collective; but it can't be both. Well, not without making a bunch of people's heads explode.


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> "eat my pink, glittery dust!"


I just added this to my sig line on bikemojo :thumbsup:

"I feel my bum getting firm and shapely"

A few years ago on a big mojo mtb trip to Fruita another lady was overheard chanting this while we were climbing. I almost always think of it when I am climbing and chuckle.


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

Swthrtsuzy said:


> I just want to say that I'm a newbie to (any) this sport and all the knowledge and information that you all pass on through this forum has been invaluable. Thanks so much for sharing your experience with the world. It's great to know that there are so many women out there destroying the old "men men men" mindsets and giving girls (like myself) who may not have had the courage to try this incredible sport the incentive to do so.


Swthrtsuzy, Boerne is not that far from Austin. We will have to try and meet for a ride somewhere. Also, Ride Like A Girl will have some Saturday rides with the Austin Ridge Riders through the winter. In the Spring we will start the every Monday nite rides again.

I have only been to Gov'mnt Canyon once and want to go back. I would also like to get to Comfort before it closes for deer season.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

TVC15 said:


> However, in that admittedly muddled spirit, I must also say that I find it more than a little confusing how anyone could resent the negative connotation intended in the phrase "rides like a girl," while simultaneously and enthusiastically taking part in a Girl Power Sisterhood. Either you demand to be judged as an individual, or as part of the collective; but it can't be both. Well, not without making a bunch of people's heads explode.


Yeah - the problem is that it's all about context and it can be a negative or positive statement depending on who is saying it under what circumstance and how it is said. (Which would be tough enough to discuss in person, but in writing it's even worse.)


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

OMG....:rockon: I'm going to say that from now on as I ride my ass up hills. :thumbsup: Thank you thank you thank you. LOL


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Isn't this where people are supposed to say

This post is useless without pictures? 

ROFL


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

*Do you think this discussion...*

would have gone differently if I hadn't used a word general thought to be negative in the original question? I asked if there is something *wrong* with riding like a girl. What if I had simply said "what are your opinions on the phrase "you ride like a girl?"

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wonder if I set a negative tone with my phrasing...


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## poff (Dec 23, 2003)

I think it is foolish to pay attention to what others are saying about you. You can spend your time better, like riding, or going to a spin class which helps your riding. You set your own goals and try to reach them - you are accountable only to yourself. If you are so sensitive to smug remarks of some a$$holes you are lacking in self confidence. Happy riding!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

I can't really imagine anyone is skipping out on riding because they're worrying about any of this. God, I hope not. If they are, I agree - they should totally go for a ride instead.

But discussing it is more entertaining than work....


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

poff said:


> I think it is foolish to pay attention to what others are saying about you. You can spend your time better, like riding, or going to a spin class which helps your riding. You set your own goals and try to reach them - you are accountable only to yourself. If you are so sensitive to smug remarks of some a$$holes you are lacking in self confidence. Happy riding!


Ummm....nobody has said I ride like a girl or even said that I am a sh!tty rider. I'm brand new, so of course I suck. LOL But I know my skills are increasing, my friends I ride with can tell I'm getting better...and I'm having a GREAT time doing what I love.

I was simply curious what other women (and I'm glad we've had some men reply as well) think of the statement "riding like a girl."

BTW, I ride at every chance I get and do endurance rides at the gym to better my health and my ability to ride outdoors. Did 9.5 miles the other day without changing gears, having chosen a route with a consistent climb. 9.5 may not seem like a lot to some people, but it is to me - I've only been exercising since July, mountain biking since the beginning of Sept. and I'm quite overweight.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

catzilla said:


> My theory on the massive discrepancy between men and women's general riding abilities is three-fold:
> 
> a) Since girls are usually brought up without playing sports, they don't learn how to "redline" at an early enough age for it to become ingrained in them. When I take new friends out for their first rides, I often have them pedal through a field or the parking lot at full tilt. "Stand up and honk on the handlebars." Some of them, literally, just can't. Fear was ingrained into them instead of being physically aggressive.
> 
> ...


As a woman who has sucessfully surpassed the gender gap (who rides neither like a guy nor like a girl, but like "cat" who legitimately kicks ass in her own right and doesn't rely upon a modified measuring stick to earn that kind of assessment), your observations, comments and insights might do a lot of good here.

I agree with you particularly on #3, regarding our tendency to be supportive to a fault. To successfully and significantly shake any negative connotations of the "rides like a girl" comment, we can't be thrilled or even satisfied with mediocre achievements. As a gender, I mean. Individually, I realize that a lot of chicks do this. You did.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Walking is always a good option*

as far as this guy is concerned, for anyone.


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

Telling a coworker about this thread this morning reminded me of one of the most positive moments I've had as a rider. In 2005 my husband did his first 24 hour race. While kicking back with him as he was fresh off one of his night laps, I noticed one of the Luna Chix sitting not far away in a lawn chair. She was obviously breast feeding while on a break from racing (she was in the World Championship races). That was by far the most inspirational moment I've personally experienced. It proved we can be women and kick a$$. Now, let's see a man do that.   

Fiona


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

It is perfectly okay to "take immense pride in displaying only average skills". Heck, yeah! For "average skills" on a beautiful trail are far better than reclining on the couch all day and listening to the gentle crunch of arteries hardening, or drinking oneself to death, or eating oneself there. Then there are those who only wish they could get on a bike, and those who used to ride, but can no more. Oh, I could go on, but you get the picture... 

The OP wasn't complaining. I hope she keeps feeling empowered and keeps riding and continues to be proud of it with every turn of her pedals.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Fiona said:


> Telling a coworker about this thread this morning reminded me of one of the most positive moments I've had as a rider. In 2005 my husband did his first 24 hour race. While kicking back with him as he was fresh off one of his night laps, I noticed one of the Luna Chix sitting not far away in a lawn chair. She was obviously breast feeding while on a break from racing (she was in the World Championship races). That was by far the most inspirational moment I've personally experienced. It proved we can be women and kick a$$. Now, let's see a man do that.
> 
> Fiona


That is beautiful. Total chillbumps.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> as far as this guy is concerned, for anyone.


Naturally, understanding your limits is one of the first skills any new mountain biker should learn. But, when it comes to the discussion about why women's skills as a whole are lesser than those of our male counterparts as a whole, our greater willingness to walk areas that scare us and not be driven by ego or pride, are certainly contributing factors.

Of course, there are also fewer of us walking around with casts. So it goes.

But, trust me, if you're on my tail and I'm pushing to keep ahead, I will be more apt to ride faster, better, and over more obstacles because I'm not focusing on my fear. I'm focusing on my ego. Even if you eventually pass, I'll still finish the ride as a more capable rider than I started out.

Pride and ego are the antidote to fear and the fuel of athletic prowess.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

catzilla said:


> My theory on the massive discrepancy between men and women's general riding abilities is three-fold:
> 
> a) Since girls are usually brought up without playing sports....
> 
> ...


Quick paraphrase:
1. women, on average, don't really understand how to hurt. 
2. Women are attracted to sports other than MTB.
3. Amongst women, there exists a culture of supportive-suckitude.

I agree with all of these. Big part of why I rarely take part in all-women's activities. They just don't push each other and they tend to tear down or avoid women who do. I have never seen a group of women egg another woman over a drop.

Have I ever told you guys about my "outfit experiment"?
If I show up to a women's ride in team kit, and look like I know what I am doing, the women who don't know me avoid talking to me. If I show up in "casual rider" clothes women who don't know me are much friendlier. Done it several times, it is pretty funny to watch.

Like Catzilla, just making observations.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> as far as this guy is concerned, for anyone.


Yes, but you are very conservative. I think that for some percentage your approach works, but for the women who would be attracted to this sport for adrenalin-related reasons this approach would be a huge turn-off. It would have been for me. I spent my first year of MTB covered in bruises, scabs and band-aids, and was totally proud of every injury. Falling just made me want to try riding an obstacle again. Most of the walking I did was related to picking up all the gear I was continually yardsale-ing into the nearby bushes.

C


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Pride and ego*

just like adrenaline, desperation, and urgency, can lead to accidents. What I am talking about here is good judgement; riding within your limits. I have never agreed that getting hurt is paying dues, but is just a evidence of a poor learning method. My "conservative" method has bread champions and skilled cyclists, not woosies.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Berkeley Mike said:


> just like adrenaline, desperation, and urgency, can lead to accidents. What I am talking about here is good judgement; riding within your limits. I have never agreed that getting hurt is paying dues, but is just a evidence of a poor learning method. My "conservative" method has bread champions and skilled cyclists, not woosies.


I think I missed something. Did someone say it was bad to walk? I walk all the time. Course I'm still learning...so I walk the parts of the trails around here that I'm not comfortable riding. But that being said, who cares if one is still learning? If a piece of trail is above one's head, why get hurt doing it?

I'm not about getting hurt, so if walking it is going to keep me in one piece, screw it, hike the bike and let's move along to a piece of trail I CAN ride. I KNOW walking is not hurting my ability to learn and gain skills because I can do SO MUCH MORE of the trails I ride without walking than I could just a week ago.

So if I missed something, fill me in. If I'm talking out my ass, ignore me. If I did something right, yanno...pat me on the back. I could use it today.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I think I missed something. Did someone say it was bad to walk? I walk all the time. Course I'm still learning...so I walk the parts of the trails around here that I'm not comfortable riding. But that being said, who cares if one is still learning? If a piece of trail is above one's head, why get hurt doing it?
> 
> I'm not about getting hurt, so if walking it is going to keep me in one piece, screw it, hike the bike and let's move along to a piece of trail I CAN ride. I KNOW walking is not hurting my ability to learn and gain skills because I can do SO MUCH MORE of the trails I ride without walking than I could just a week ago.
> 
> So if I missed something, fill me in. If I'm talking out my ass, ignore me. If I did something right, yanno...pat me on the back. I could use it today.


Walking is fine. And necessary. And wise. And a necessary part of any rider's progression.

But to become a truly, legitimately, and exceptionally skilled rider requires a person (man or woman) to successfully push _past_ their limits; not make endless excuses for them. The endless excuses thing just irritates the hell outta people, and holds a person back.


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## iRider (Nov 15, 2005)

Just want to share some observations with you.

The term "you ride like a girl" was used quite more frequently by younger riders after Chris Kovarik made this comment to excuse a bad race result in one of the "Earthed" movies. Point here is, some kids think it is cool because a Pro used it and start picking it up and using it more. Just an explaination, not an excuse. 

Having gotten quite a few new riders (male/female) into more advanced "technical" riding I am always surprised to hear the excuse "I can't do this, I am a girl" from some women. :madman: I am amazed how strong the cultural imprint from the 1800's still is.

From my observation, there is definitely a difference in riding styles between men and women at DH races. Most female riders pick better lines and don't "plow" like men, which results in less mechanicals and a smoother style. This doesn't look as "aggressive" as male riders but doesn't have to be slower.

Female DH racers have shown to be competitive with men. Missy Giove would have been in the men's top 10 at quite a few Worldcups. And currently Rachel Atherton shows that it is possible too.

Whistler bikepark is the prime example that if you spend the time and ride a lot you can be on whatever level you want, not matter what your gender is. Over 30% female riders and all I have seen up there were killing it on the trails! :thumbsup:


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## stingray_coach (Jun 27, 2006)

*lol*

You guys talk about some silly sh!t. What about throwing like a girl? You throw funny...what can I say. lol


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## Consuela (Jun 13, 2008)

Brodiegrrl said:


> I ride like a girl. I have fun at it too!


Awesome pics Brodiegrrl!!


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

stingray_coach said:


> You guys talk about some silly sh!t. What about throwing like a girl? You throw funny...what can I say. lol


Why is this silly? I'm very curious now. I don't think it's silly to investigate WHY people use a certain phrase in a sport.

I don't care about throwing like a girl...this isn't a baseball forum.  Talk about silly sh!t! LOL


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

TVC15 said:


> Walking is fine. And necessary. And wise. And a necessary part of any rider's progression.
> 
> But to become a truly, legitimately, and exceptionally skilled rider requires a person (man or woman) to successfully push _past_ their limits; not make endless excuses for them. The endless excuses thing just irritates the hell outta people, and holds a person back.


So then let me ask this...what if a person doesn't want to be an exceptionally skilled rider, but rather is satisfied to continue to ride at their current level? And I'm not saying that's me (because I'm too new to know how far I want to go in this sport...I simply have expectations of myself right now that I will continue to get better as I learn and will evaluate as I go), but some who have answered seem to have the expectation that everyone wants to be an exceptionally skilled rider. What about people who simply want to get on their bikes and roll where they are comfortable? Are those people making other persons of their gender have to work harder to "break the mold of mediocrity?" Not everyone is ambitious or _wants_ to push past their limits. What of those people?


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> So then let me ask this...what if a person doesn't want to be an exceptionally skilled rider, but rather is satisfied to continue to ride at their current level? And I'm not saying that's me (because I'm too new to know how far I want to go in this sport...I simply have expectations of myself right now that I will continue to get better as I learn and will evaluate as I go), but some who have answered seem to have the expectation that everyone wants to be an exceptionally skilled rider. What about people who simply want to get on their bikes and roll where they are comfortable? Are those people making other persons of their gender have to work harder to "break the mold of mediocrity?" Not everyone is ambitious or _wants_ to push past their limits. What of those people?


They should enjoy their rides and love them too, and do whatever makes them happy. Nothing wrong with that, that's not my point.

What's wrong in my mind, is the modified measuring stick given to us as a group, _and one that we accept_ suggesting we're "badasses" after displaying only objectively moderately impressive skills. What offends me is getting a _"_you're a _great_ rider!!!" compliment from guys who would call a guy displaying the same skills a only a "good rider." Personally, I'm a little offended by the extra credit we receive because I think it's unnecessary, sexist, and very patronizing. Even though it's well intended.

And yes, I think when way too many of us set our bars way too low, and are not only happy with those achievements but seem significantly impressed with them and satisfied to stay there -- we as a gender _earn_ any negative connotation ever implied with the phrase "rides like a girl." I think _we own it_ as a group; so it's up to us to change, if change is necessary at all. And we should point any frustration with the negative connotations of that phrase in the right direction.

Hope that helps. And thanks for facilitating such productive conversation.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

Let me ask this...because all my life I've been "different." And all my life, most people have seen those differences as bad or wrong or somehow negative. What if they are simply...different? 

Just as we, as women, are different, why can't our differences in riding just be? Why do we have to measure ourselves against men? Why do we not measure ourselves against each other? 

I'm probably letting my idealist, unrealistic side shine here. But I guess it kind of bothers me that we can't embrace our differences. 

What if, instead of having our over-encouraging-mediocrity sisters out there empowering us, we had men ragging on us telling us we ride like sh!t...how many women do you think would flock, much less succeed, at a male dominated sport such as this one? I would surely have turned tail and run. But that's just me. I'm not an athlete, I'm not competitive and hell yes, I am intimidated by such things. Well...perhaps at another time in my life I would have run. Now, I would probably look at them and tell them to kindly f*ck off. 

Now I'm curious how all of us learned to ride - did we learn from men or women, group rides or individuals...and perhaps it speaks also to the parts of the country we are from and how much of a mtb community there actually is? 

I suppose I'm probably twisting the topic with this post a bit...since my original question *was* is there something wrong with riding like a girl. Perhaps because this *is* a male dominated sport, the natural thing is to measure ourselves against the pinnacle...who is likely male, yes? So yes, I see your point about a modified measuring stick IF we are measuring ourselves against men.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> Let me ask this...because all my life I've been "different." And all my life, most people have seen those differences as bad or wrong or somehow negative. What if they are simply...different?
> 
> Just as we, as women, are different, why can't our differences in riding just be? Why do we have to measure ourselves against men? Why do we not measure ourselves against each other?
> 
> ...




This isn't art, it's mountain biking for Christ's sake. Skills and strength can and should be _objectively_ measured, and doing so should not be significantly different between the sexes. Anything less amounts to a modified measuring stick; expecting less of yourself, and ourselves, for no legitimate reason.

Forgive me for saying so, but that particular tendency of ours clashes just too painfully in the Girl Power Sisterhood scene. To me, it's embarrassing. It's asking for and accepting increased credit when little or none is due. It amounts to "respect charity," and _that's_ humiliating. To me at least. Sorry, I know I'm alone on a lot of this, and can be too blunt in my commentary; but truly, this is where much of this comes down for me.

To answer your other question, I learned to ride mostly inidividually, or in small groups. There are a lot of really good riders in Colorado, men and women, so it's easy as a rider to set your bar very high. You know what good looks like, up close and personal, so it's hard for me to get too excited about ho-hum achievements.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

TVC15 said:


> This isn't art, it's mountain biking for Christ's sake. Skills and strength can and should be _objectively_ measured, and should not be significantly different between the sexes. To do anything less is to ask for the modified measuring stick; expecting less of yourself, and ourselves, for no legitimate reason. Forgive me for saying so, but that particular tendency clashes just too painfully in the Girl Power Sisterhood scene. To me, it's embarrassing. It's asking and accepting credit when little or none is due. It's "respect charity," and _that's_ humiliating, to me at least.
> 
> To answer your other question: I learned to ride mostly inidividually, or in small groups. There are a lot of really good riders in Colorado, so it's easy to set your bar very high. You know what good looks like, up close and personal, so it's hard to get too excited about ho-hum achievements.


I think it's this part of your statement that I can't get my head around: "Skills and strength can and should be _objectively_ measured, and should not be significantly different between the sexes."

*Strength* should not be significantly different between the sexes? Seriously? Aren't men, by nature, stronger than women? I can go with the skills thing because someone of either sex can have great skills.

I simply disagree with you. I don't expect less of myself. I expect differently from myself. There is a legitimate reason - we aren't men. And that is exactly my point. We *are* different.

I don't want any respect that I haven't earned. I'm not asking for it either. If I suck, tell me I suck. But tell me I suck not because you compared me to some guy, but because you saw me ride last time and I sucked ass this time or because I have made no improvements since you last saw me.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I simply disagree with you. I don't expect less of myself. I expect differently from myself. There is a legitimate reason - we aren't men. And that is exactly my point. We *are* different.


How? 

We can agree that less _is_ different.

It's still _less_ though, whether or not that fact will ever be recognized in supportive suckitude circles.

IMO, you are expecting much too little of yourself simply because you are female; and any significant limits you experience biking are considerably more mental than physical.

That's both a compliment and a vote of confidence for you, by the way. Best of luck.



ineedtrainingwheels said:


> Strength should not be significantly different between the sexes? Seriously? Aren't men, by nature, stronger than women? I can go with the skills thing because someone of either sex can have great skills.


In _mountain biking_, on average, I'd give no more than a 15% strength advantage to men (possibly less, because when you learn to ride well it takes less strength to do so, it's becomes more finesse and skill); skills advantage: zero. However, the typical skill/strength gap seen in the mtb scene is considerably wider than that, without any explanation I can make.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

TVC15 said:


> How?
> 
> We can agree that less _is_ different.
> 
> ...


You have no idea how much I expect of myself OR my reasons for WHAT I expect. See here's what gets me. Because I don't expect as much out of myself as you seem to expect out of yourself, that makes me wrong or less or whatever. I know my limits, I have my reasons, none of which would make any difference to you, I'd think, because they would be the endless excuses you spoke of earlier. I will do things at my pace because that is how I do things. I'm not out to break my leg trying to prove I'm just as good as someone else when I'm NOT. I'll likely continue to be in the circle of supportive suckitude...it obviously suits someone like me who thinks so little of herself and her abilities.

So thank you for your somewhat back handed compliment and vote of confidence. I'm well aware, MORE aware than you, of the factors that limit my biking experience.

And it always gets personal doesn't it. Damn it.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> You have no idea how much I expect of myself OR my reasons for WHAT I expect. See here's what gets me. Because I don't expect as much out of myself as you seem to expect out of yourself, that makes me wrong or less or whatever. I know my limits, I have my reasons, none of which would make any difference to you, I'd think, because they would be the endless excuses you spoke of earlier. I will do things at my pace because that is how I do things. I'm not out to break my leg trying to prove I'm just as good as someone else when I'm NOT. I'll likely continue to be in the circle of supportive suckitude...it obviously suits someone like me who thinks so little of herself and her abilities.
> 
> So thank you for your somewhat back handed compliment and vote of confidence. I'm well aware, MORE aware than you, of the factors that limit my biking experience.


I think we're talking about two different things here, or perhaps ten. I'm sorry I offended you; it was not a backhanded compliment, I promise, and I'm honestly sorry you think that it was. We clearly see this issue through very different parts of a prism.

Good luck, and good on you for entering the sport. To take part in this sport is a blessing, and can be a life changing one. The one thing I have learned (it took me some time to learn it too), and I think it's true for everyone, man or woman, is this: ultimately, most of every rider's limitations are mental. And our mental limitations are the hardest ones to overcome.

Honestly, all the best to you, and I hope you will accept my sincere apologies.


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## deanna (Jan 15, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> Now I'm curious how all of us learned to ride - did we learn from men or women, group rides or individuals...and perhaps it speaks also to the parts of the country we are from and how much of a mtb community there actually is?


I learned to ride by myself and with groups of guys. Here in the midwest, there's not a lot of women who ride, though the numbers are increasing! I had quite the learning curve as well -- I'm not naturally all that coordinated, so to learn something... I have to do it over and over and over!

I've had some nasty wrecks, and some funny ones as well (like the time the loop on my old camelbak got caught on a tree limb/stump in a corner and yanked me off the bike, leaving me to wonder "WTF?!" for a while). My biggest skill/confidence increases came when following a highly skilled friend (and former trials rider) and just doing what he did to the best of my ability. There's NO way I would have ridden what I did w/o having seen 'the line' ridden by someone else. After that, a lot of things seemed a lot easier once I had the confidence to do it.

And so on... Even after ~12yrs of mtb, I'm still learning, doing newbie mistakes on occasion (usually when I'm getting a bit cocky), and having lots of fun.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I have a friend who says she doesn't *want* to "ride like a girl."


I've just read the whole thread. My goodness. Lots of food for thought.

I had a related moment on a ride yesterday. I was on a group ride at Chilao (fun moderately technical trail in socal) with 13 guys, and I was the only girl. Starting out, I felt a little outnumbered & intimidated, but not worried. I had a really fun ride and nailed alot of things I hadn't before. I wasn't the first and wasn't the last. I had a blast.

About 2/3 of the way through the ride I regrouped with some friends. One guy, who I know but hadn't ever ridden with before said "It's good to see you out here. Not many girls come out here mountain biking. And you're doing really well".

Now 5 years ago as a female newbie I would have been giddy for the praise, maybe annoyed to be called a girl, but amazed to be out on a ride with all guys.

4 years ago I might have wondered if he was hitting on me, or worried that he was commenting on how slow I was.

2 years ago I would have bristled at the assumption that as I girl I was doing "well" since as I knew that I missed obstacles a, b, and c and thus I wasn't doing well at all, how dare he comment and it was sexist to boot.

Yesterday I said "It's great to be out here and I'm having a blast! Its great to see you out here too!" And meant it 100%. No internal re-interpretations of the comment. It was a zen moment. I felt evolved.

I agree with TVC - Your head trips dictate what you hear and how you hear it. You are responsible for your ride and your reactions to comments.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

By the way, yes guys will tease each other about being girly and throwing like a girl and talking about p*ssy lines on the trail and all that stuff. It's what they do - especially to each other. Even if they know better. Yes on a level it is derogatory. But I feel like it's kind of part of their nature, like occasionally dripping pee on the seat, or being mesmerized by big machinery. It's mildly endearing, and they generally can't help help themselves.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

chuky said:


> Quick paraphrase:
> 1. women, on average, don't really understand how to hurt.
> 2. Women are attracted to sports other than MTB.
> 3. Amongst women, there exists a culture of supportive-suckitude.
> ...


All I can say is that if that's true you are ABSOLUTELY riding with the wrong group of women.

Come to our I Street dirt jumping girls-only sessions (mostly the girls I race DH with and a few others we drag along). I get egged on to hit things that scare the crap out of me so often it's not even funny. We're always talking each other into hitting the next bigger jump. (I'll admit, if you wuss out, no one is going to give you too much crap over it, but there is a lot of friendly and sometimes competitive pushing to go for it.)

And the last time we had girls night (like 2 weeks ago) there were actually more women at the dirt jumps than men (at least for most of the evening). Which about blew my mind.

Seriously, if you want to ride with our more DH oriented girls group we should put you on our email list. I think you'd have fun - and we could use someone to egg us on for the climbing stuff.  We'd love to have you ride with us.


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## Team Pro Laps (Jul 1, 2004)

CycleMainiac said:


> In my town "Ride Like A Girl" is a brand name and mentioning Ride Like A Girl at almost every bike shop in town will get you at the very least special attention and very likely a good discount. We have Ride Like A Girl Jersey's, t-shirts, and stickers.
> Spring of 09 will be the 10 year anniversary of Ride Like A Girl in Austin.


Hey, Cyclemaniac, I kept looking for your post as I was scrolling down this thread. That is a great pic. Just so y'all know, Ride Like a Girl rides have happened in Austin, Texas on every Monday from late May to early Sept, for yes, the last 10 years. Typical turnout is from 30 to 60 women. So, yes, "Ride LIke a Girl" is term of affection & empowerment in our town.


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## creseis (Apr 4, 2008)

Impy said:


> By the way, yes guys will tease each other about being girly and throwing like a girl and talking about p*ssy lines on the trail and all that stuff. It's what they do - especially to each other. Even if they know better. Yes on a level it is derogatory. But I feel like it's kind of part of their nature, like occasionally dripping pee on the seat, or being mesmerized by big machinery. It's mildly endearing, and they generally can't help help themselves.


This guy behind me on a technical section of my race yesterday let out this impressive belch. Good thing I wasn't trying to *focus* or anything... Can't we clicker train them or something???


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## Brodiegrrl (Jan 12, 2004)

Impy said:


> I agree with TVC - Your head trips dictate what you hear and how you hear it. You are responsible for your ride and your reactions to comments.


Well said.

I'm often the only female on a ride of mostly guys.

In fact the one ride I was on last month it was me and two guys, they were 24 and 28, I'm 41. Old enough to be their mother! we'll barely in most cultures...

I wasn't much slower then them and if my front brake wasn't metal to metal I probably would have been as fast.

I just like riding with people who like to ride.


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## stingray_coach (Jun 27, 2006)

Impy said:


> By the way, yes guys will tease each other about being girly and throwing like a girl and talking about p*ssy lines on the trail and all that stuff. It's what they do - especially to each other. Even if they know better. Yes on a level it is derogatory. But I feel like it's kind of part of their nature, like occasionally dripping pee on the seat, or being mesmerized by big machinery. It's mildly endearing, and they generally can't help help themselves.


Sometimes I drip pee on the seat, but usually in really narly sections. lol...oh, the toilet? 
When we say something like, "riding like a girl", throwing like a girl"...we are goofing...because we are not girls and we really don't want to do anything likes girls do...or be called on it anyway. I had to work the other day and my wife went riding with a bunch of guy we ride with here...none of them said anything about riding like a girl...because would have said "ahhh....fock off"...aussie chicks throw it right back..it is funny. Plus she was ahead of most of them.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*How we manage the "head trips" women deal with*

is key to including a significant segment of the female population in the growth of women in mountain biking. It isn't very hard to hear the "voices" of the segment of women in this forum who either just ignored the voices in their heads, never had them, or have learned through experience to deal. They are more concerned with being mountain bikers.

There is an entirely different vocabulary used to support women who have a different, more complex and confounding experience. One hears the word "empowerment" a lot and the phrase,"as a woman mountain biker" girl power or support group, special needs or, well, the list is long.

In addition there are the converse terms bandied about by women concerning women who are befuddled by struggle; Barbie Girl, supportive suckitude, a not too infrequent in-your-face attitude and little patience with accepting and celebrating those transitional stages we all go through to become a good biker, mediocrity.

A page or two back there was great and clear statement by TVC: " Either you demand to be judged as an individual, or as part of the collective; but it can't be both. Well, not without making a bunch of people's heads explode." In lieu of exploding I would like to suggest that what TVC suggests as a concdrum for an individual is not for people as a whole. The entire discussion and the variety of voices show that to be the case.

So...is there something wrong with riding like a girl? I guess that depends on what kind of girl you are.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> A page or two back there was great and clear statement by TVC


Yippee!! I'll file that li'l achievement under _blind squirrel >> nut. _

Thanks Mike.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Impy said:


> I agree with TVC - Your head trips dictate what you hear and how you hear it. You are responsible for your ride and your reactions to comments.


I agree too. For sure, never let that sort of thing get to you and affect your riding.

But on the other hand, when we're discussing it here, or as I've had happen, a guy friend asks me if it bothers me when they say they were "riding like a girl today" - I don't feel it's something I should endorse, either. It's furthering a stereotype that many of us are working hard to break (not only with my own riding, but I try to help teach bike skills to the other women I ride with and get them out pushing the guys in the group too), and I'd love to see the stereotyping go away. Not like I'm counting on it ever happening, but if you ask... there's my opinion. Anyway, I also have to point out that to me, the "girl power sisterhood" isn't about supportive suckitude, but support in showing/teaching/encouraging whoever wants to learn how to escape the suckitude. That's really the answer. The rest of this is all just a discussion in wishful thinking and semantics.


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

connie said:


> I also have to point out that to me, the "girl power sisterhood" isn't about supportive suckitude, but support in showing/teaching/encouraging whoever wants to learn how to escape the suckitude. That's really the answer. The rest of this is all just a discussion in wishful thinking and semantics.


Regarding semantics: the "suckitude" comments bother me.

Not everyone is out there because they want to push the envelope and "be all they can be" as a mountain biker. Face it, there are a lot more people who are just never going to have the time, energy or desire to live up to their full potential on a bike. That goes for men AND women. As long as they are satisfied with their performance why should they care what anyone else thinks? Comments like "suckitude" make you sound superior and judgemental. (and that is a group "you", Connie, not directed at you in particular)

There are plenty of runners out there who will never finish first in a marathon. Does that mean they "suck" as a runner? I give them props for participating in an activity that is physically and mentally challenging. So why not extend the same courtesy to people participating in our sport?


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

MtbRN said:


> As long as they are satisfied with their performance why should they care what anyone else thinks?


_Exactly_. :thumbsup:



MtbRN said:


> Comments like "suckitude" make you sound superior and judgemental.


It was "supportive suckitude," and as I understood it, it was coined in this thread to sum up the negative and limiting effects of being _supportive_ _to a fault; _which are real, so I'm not clear why it would offend.

Often times, in biking and out, people bristle at being reminded of their own power and capabilities. That tendency fascinates to me.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

MtbRN said:


> Regarding semantics: the "suckitude" comments bother me.
> 
> Not everyone is out there because they want to push the envelope and "be all they can be" as a mountain biker. Face it, there are a lot more people who are just never going to have the time, energy or desire to live up to their full potential on a bike. That goes for men AND women. As long as they are satisfied with their performance why should they care what anyone else thinks? Comments like "suckitude" make you sound superior and judgemental. (and that is a group "you", Connie, not directed at you in particular)
> 
> There are plenty of runners out there who will never finish first in a marathon. Does that mean they "suck" as a runner? I give them props for participating in an activity that is physically and mentally challenging. So why not extend the same courtesy to people participating in our sport?


I think everyone has to identify their own goals and reasons for riding. I personally don't think I'm capable of doing any sort of physical activity without thinking about improving and doing it better. Maybe other people are totally different - but I would still think it's key to be moving towards your own goals - even if they are about using riding to de-stress or something. (And that's what gives you mental peace too. If I know I'm making progress towards MY goals, what do I care about what some outside observer thinks of what I'm doing??)

And of course, not everyone can finish first - I don't think you can make it about that and stay sane - there's always someone faster coming along. I just make it about improving and getting better all the time. I have a lot of rides where I'm "satisfied" (heck, somtimes I'm thrilled!) that I got something new dialed or improved in some area, but I'm so far from being satisfied with my overall riding ability it's not even funny. Whether I finish a race in 1st or last place, I can always come up with a laundry list of things I could have done better and areas to improve on for next time and I love making those improvements, step by step. That's the best part. (for me anyway). And I know a bunch of people who run marathons, and while most of them don't expect to win or even place well, they still all have goals and a purpose to what they're doing - maybe the first one is to finish, then to finish a harder course or beat their previous time or get back to where they were before an injury or pregnancy or some such thing... I've never met anyone who ran a marathon who wasn't trying to achieve some sort of personal improvement/goal.

I do know what you're saying though. I have a full time job and other commitments. I LOVE riding and spend a lot of time and money and effort on improving, but unfortunately it can't get the 100% committment it would require for me to achieve my FULL potential. That's not really a realistic goal for me at this point. But on the other hand I don't think that because your work and family schedule interferes with your ideal training plan means you just give up on trying to improve.

Anyway - I don't think that "suckitude" is about not achieving your full potential (because you're right - VERY few people can have the lifestyle to truly do that), or where you are at in your learning curve, but about giving up on yourself. It's the "I can't do it any better anyway, so why bother trying" attitude. It doesn't have to be high-risk stuff either - learning to really mentally focus, or pump through the terrain more efficiently, or pedal in perfect circles, or whatever is important to you is all good.


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## Drillbit (Oct 3, 2007)

creseis said:


> My ex-bf and I ride together often. I just called him and asked him if he was riding tomorrow night with the guys, and if this was a guys-only ride. He said, "No, we welcome women. SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT ACT LIKE WOMEN."
> 
> I said, "Uhm, well, guess what? I am a woman and I act like a woman..."
> 
> ...


Well now we know why he's your ex-bf. Being a male, I'd say he doesn't deserve you or any other woman with an attitude like that. I prefer women to act like women.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

TVC15 said:


> It was "supportive suckitude," and as I understood it, it was coined in this thread to sum up the negative and limiting effects of being _supportive_ _to a fault; _which are real, so I'm not clear why it would offend.
> .


The part that is rubbing me wrong about all this "supportive suckitude" talk is the elite mentality that if you haven't reached a certain level (whatever that may be) then you aren't reaching your full potential and thus stuck in your suckiness.

I have girl friends who are new to mountian biking or can't ride as much as they would like to and work on their skills and fitness. So every ride we go on I make a point to encourage them. And yes It may be by praising them for something as simple as riding a rock garden or finishing a climb without walking. And sometimes it may even be by telling them it is ok that they walked that section because they weren't "feeling it". I may try to encourage them to ride it again and show them the line. But if they don't want to, I still them it's ok. Why? Because I want them to finish the ride feeling good, in one piece and confident. I want them to get back on their bike tomorrow and the next day and try something new becuase that could mean the next ride could bring the breakthrough. But without encouragement or being pushed before they are ready they may join the legions of women with bikes for sale on craigslist with the tag line "only ridden 3 times".


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

badjenny said:


> The part that is rubbing me wrong about all this "supportive suckitude" talk is the elite mentality that if you haven't reached a certain level (whatever that may be) then you aren't reaching your full potential and thus stuck in your suckiness.
> 
> I have girl friends who are new to mountian biking or can't ride as much as they would like to and work on their skills and fitness. So every ride we go on I make a point to encourage them. And yes It may be by praising them for something as simple as riding a rock garden or finishing a climb without walking. And sometimes it may even be by telling them it is ok that they walked that section because they weren't "feeling it". I may try to encourage them to ride it again and show them the line. But if they don't want to, I still them it's ok. Why? Because I want them to finish the ride feeling good, in one piece and confident. I want them to get back on their bike tomorrow and the next day and try something new becuase that could mean the next ride could bring the breakthrough. But without encouragement or being pushed before they are ready they may join the legions of women with bikes for sale on craigslist with the tag line "only ridden 3 times".


I kind of covered that in the post below - I personally don't think that is what is meant.

And there is certainly a good range of pushing and a bad range of pushing (whether it's too much and you're overtrained/injured too much or too little and you're stagnating or encouraging overly timid behaviour).

edit: It's interesting too, because I asked my husband last night what he thinks "riding like a girl" means. And his answer was "too timid". More "not trying" than unskilled or slow. And that can apply at any level.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

I have said it a million times before, but the women on this board aren't typical. The mere fact you care enough about bikes to post here puts you in the 99th percentile. My comments refer to average women.

I do have women I ride with that get it - and there wasn't any shortage of women on the NRC that knew how to hurt, but again - if you are racing crits at the national level, you aren't a typical woman.

Scariest woman I know on a bike:

Doesn't look very threatening does she?  Just don't piss her off.

Thanks for the invite - I will take you up on it for sure sometime!


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

badjenny said:


> The part that is rubbing me wrong about all this "supportive suckitude" talk is the elite mentality that if you haven't reached a certain level (whatever that may be) then you aren't reaching your full potential and thus stuck in your suckiness.
> 
> I have girl friends who are new to mountian biking or can't ride as much as they would like to and work on their skills and fitness. So every ride we go on I make a point to encourage them. And yes It may be by praising them for something as simple as riding a rock garden or finishing a climb without walking. And sometimes it may even be by telling them it is ok that they walked that section because they weren't "feeling it". I may try to encourage them to ride it again and show them the line. But if they don't want to, I still them it's ok. Why? Because I want them to finish the ride feeling good, in one piece and confident. I want them to get back on their bike tomorrow and the next day and try something new becuase that could mean the next ride could bring the breakthrough. But without encouragement or being pushed before they are ready they may join the legions of women with bikes for sale on craigslist with the tag line "only ridden 3 times".


Thank you, and exactly.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

badjenny said:


> The part that is rubbing me wrong about all this "supportive suckitude" talk is the elite mentality that if you haven't reached a certain level (whatever that may be) then you aren't reaching your full potential and thus stuck in your suckiness.


There is nothing elite about it, though I find your use of the word elite in a pejorative sense to be pretty interesting, in light of this discussion.

Supportive Suckitude has nothing to do with a particular level of riding. It can be something as simple as not knowing how to ride off of a curb and never having your riding companions help you to figure it out.

If I had to define it, it would be: the tendency for groups of women to encourage people to ride below the level they really wish to ride, or to watch their fellow riders walk the same obstacle ride after ride without ever asking them if they want to learn how to ride it - at any level. Also can refer to the phenomenon of groups of women riding slower, stopping more and cutting rides short when in groups (as opposed to groups of men who tend to go faster and further than they do when on their own).


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## CycleMainiac (Jan 12, 2004)

badjenny said:


> I have girl friends who are new to mountian biking or can't ride as much as they would like to and work on their skills and fitness. So every ride we go on I make a point to encourage them. And yes It may be by praising them for something as simple as riding a rock garden or finishing a climb without walking. And sometimes it may even be by telling them it is ok that they walked that section because they weren't "feeling it". I may try to encourage them to ride it again and show them the line. But if they don't want to, I still them it's ok. Why? Because I want them to finish the ride feeling good, in one piece and confident. I want them to get back on their bike tomorrow and the next day and try something new becuase that could mean the next ride could bring the breakthrough. But without encouragement or being pushed before they are ready they may join the legions of women with bikes for sale on craigslist with the tag line "only ridden 3 times".


Ditto - this us why I have been a part of Ride Like A Girl and it's predesessor for nearly 15 years. I really enjoy helping others move from those early timid rides to becoming confident and competent riders. We all move forward at our own rates. Praising and sharing the small accomplishments along the way keeps most women coming back for more.

Ride Like A Girl in Austin is the exact opposite of chuky's description of "supportive suckitude". Ride Like A Girl is all about helping women riders of all levels improve their riding, what ever that may mean to them. It is self perpetuating in that new riders move through the groups getting advice and encouragement from their ride leaders while improving their skills and fitness and often becoming ride leaders themselves.

One of my all time favorite things to see happen is watching the big group begin to split into smaller groups and noticing a newer rider trying to decide which group to go with. She will look back at her usual group but also keep looking at who is going in the next group up. Usually at the last second she will jump on the tail end of the faster group. At the end of the ride she rolls up sometimes covered in dirt or blood from obvious falls but she will have the hugest grin you can imagine and be absolutly beeming from the experience of exceeding her expectations.

I will admit that 10 years ago when the name Ride Like A Girl was being discussed as our group name that I HATED it. I knew it came from a few very ugly incidents from mean male elitist riders and I advocated against the name. I was out voted and learned to love the name.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Again, I really don't think that there is any shortage of examples that demonstrate exceptions to the rule, however, if you post here, you are the exception, not the average. There are a ton of great skills clinics, women's groups and other organizations out there, they are also exceptions to the average.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

CycleMainiac said:


> Ditto - this us why I have been a part of Ride Like A Girl and it's predesessor for nearly 15 years. I really enjoy helping others move from those early timid rides to becoming confident and competent riders. We all move forward at our own rates. Praising and sharing the small accomplishments along the way keeps most women coming back for more.
> 
> Ride Like A Girl in Austin is the exact opposite of chuky's description of "supportive suckitude". Ride Like A Girl is all about helping women riders of all levels improve their riding, what ever that may mean to them. It is self perpetuating in that new riders move through the groups getting advice and encouragement from their ride leaders while improving their skills and fitness and often becoming ride leaders themselves.
> 
> ...


I love it. Nice work!

(And I will say that the Dirt Series clinics I've gone to have been great with that too - they push women to try (and succeed) at things they never thought they would do - the wheelie class in particular is almost mind-boggling. But at the same time - they don't let participants do anything reall unsafe or over their head - it's really great because they do a great job of pushing just the right amount - which develops a level of trust and makes the pushing easier.)


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

connie said:


> Anyway - I don't think that "suckitude" is about not achieving your full potential (because you're right - VERY few people can have the lifestyle to truly do that), or where you are at in your learning curve, but about giving up on yourself. It's the "I can't do it any better anyway, so why bother trying" attitude. It doesn't have to be high-risk stuff either - learning to really mentally focus, or pump through the terrain more efficiently, or pedal in perfect circles, or whatever is important to you is all good.


EXACTLY! :thumbsup:


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

chuky said:


> There is nothing elite about it, though I find your use of the word elite in a pejorative sense to be pretty interesting, in light of this discussion.


Took the words right outta my mouth.

Wow.

Eh, whatcha gonna do. As I said, people bristle. I don't understand it, but at my age it doesn't surprise me anymore.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Chuky said:


> There is nothing elite about it, though I find your use of the word elite in a pejorative sense to be pretty interesting, in light of this discussion.





TVC15 said:


> Took the words right outta my mouth.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Eh, whatcha gonna do. As I said, people bristle. I don't understand it, but at my age it doesn't surprise me anymore.


 The general feeling I got (in my opinion) from some of the "supportive suckitude" posts (aimed at no poster in particular) was that because some women enjoy riding at recreational pace or skill level that it is somehow wrong. I sometimes ride with people who are just happy to be out finishing a ride in one piece and with a smile. For them it is just about being out and slowly building comfort level to try new things, each ride is a victory. So, who am I or anyone else to burst their bubble by trying to talk them into doing something outside of their comfort level. As long as they are enjoying the ride, getting positive feedback and are eager to go again, I consider it a success.

I get that what was meant by "supportive suckitude" was enabling or not encouraging a rider to try new things but, some of the posts (in my opinion) had a bit of elite "if you don't ride this way" than you aren't trying hard enough and thus wallowing in your own self imposed suckiness.

By the way, you bristled at my post so I guess were in the same boat. Agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our own opinions.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

badjenny said:


> I get that what was meant by "supportive suckitude" was enabling or not encouraging a rider to try new things but, some of the posts (in my opinion) had a bit of elite "if you don't ride this way" than you aren't trying hard enough and thus wallowing in your own *self imposed* suckiness.
> 
> By the way, you bristled at my post so I guess were in the same boat. Agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our own opinions.


Actually, at this point, it would seem that we're disagreeing to agree. Though, there's no bristling here, I promise.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

badjenny said:


> The general feeling I got (in my opinion) from some of the "supportive suckitude" posts (aimed at no poster in particular) was that because some women enjoy riding at recreational pace or skill level that it is somehow wrong. I sometimes ride with people who are just happy to be out finishing a ride in one piece and with a smile. For them it is just about being out and slowly building comfort level to try new things, each ride is a victory. So, who am I or anyone else to burst their bubble by trying to talk them into doing something outside of their comfort level. As long as they are enjoying the ride, getting positive feedback and are eager to go again, I consider it a success.
> 
> I get that what was meant by "supportive suckitude" was enabling or not encouraging a rider to try new things but, some of the posts (in my opinion) had a bit of elite "if you don't ride this way" than you aren't trying hard enough and thus wallowing in your own self imposed suckiness.
> 
> By the way, you bristled at my post so I guess were in the same boat. Agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our own opinions.


:thumbsup:

You said what I couldn't figure out how to say clearly. When I ride with a girl friend of mine, she encourages me to ride a tad above my skill level so I'll learn. When I say "hell no, I'm not riding that" and hop off my bike, she will usually come back and show me WHY she thinks I can ride it, the line on which to ride it and then she will ride it so I can see that it doesn't take a super duper bike girl to ride it. If I still say "hell no" then I walk it, she says we'll try it again next time, and that's the end of it. I don't feel like I suck, she encourages me on the things I DID do that I hadn't done before (like the long twisty bridge that scares the hell out of me, but I can do now with relatively little issue), or the really rooty section that I detest and didn't do the last time we rode, but I did this time. Her thing is exactly what you said, badjenny - to make me feel like I AM successful at something while staying in one piece and wanting to come back out and do it all again tomorrow. When I think I suck, she always tells me I don't. Is this supportive suckitude?

Another example - last week I thought my right ovary was going to pop out of my body, but I wanted to ride anyway. So she went out with me to Lake Crabtree (in Raleigh, NC), which is a place that have ridden once, but don't particularly care for as it is a bit too hilly and above my *fitness* level, and we started riding. I was ok for the first bit, but wasn't really feeling "on" and told her so. Her response? "Everyone has off days. Lemme show you the play area (teeter, skinny and log piles) and then we'll ride back. It's no big deal - and look at what you did ride - stuff you haven't ridden before and you rode it!" Is that supportive suckitude?

To me, those are examples of someone saying "hey - you did a good job on what you did try and next time maybe you'll try some more."


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

ineedtrainingwheels said:


> When I think I suck, she always tells me I don't. Is this supportive suckitude?


No.



ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I was ok for the first bit, but wasn't really feeling "on" and told her so. Her response? "Everyone has off days. Lemme show you the play area (teeter, skinny and log piles) and then we'll ride back. It's no big deal - and look at what you did ride - stuff you haven't ridden before and you rode it!" Is that supportive suckitude?


No.



ineedtrainingwheels said:


> I don't expect less of myself. I expect differently from myself. There is a legitimate reason - we aren't men. And that is exactly my point. We *are* different.


^^ That is. ^^


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

TVC15 said:


> ...


I'm going to smother you in supportive suckatude. Maybe tomorrow. Then I'm going to tell everyone on the internet about our kumbaya experience.


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## ineedtrainingwheels (Sep 2, 2008)

TVC15 said:


> ineedtrainingwheels said:
> 
> 
> > I don't expect less of myself. I expect differently from myself. There is a legitimate reason - we aren't men. And that is exactly my point. We are different.
> ...


I'm not real sure what you think I mean here...so perhaps I should ask. What do you think I mean?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you think that I think that because I am a woman that I can't do the same things men can do or can't do them as well or something like that. Am I in the ballpark?

I certainly think that I can learn to ride to MY full potential...whatever that may be. And I could give two sh!ts whether I can do it as well as a man. My *opinion* is that men and women are different...and may do things differently. I do things the way I do them...I'm not out to be as good as anyone. I'm out to be as good as ME. That's it. When I'm comfortable enough to ride with the big dogs - be they men or women - that's when I'll ride with them. But not before. Does that mean I'm not pushing myself to my full potential? No. It means I'm going to do things in my own time and for my own reasons, nobody else's. If that's supportive suckitude, so be it.


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

athalliah said:


> I'm going to smother you in supportive suckatude. Maybe tomorrow. Then I'm going to tell everyone on the internet about our kumbaya experience.


Ha! Excellent! 

Thanks for the warning. I'll ask to borrow AJ's skirt.


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## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

TVC15 said:


> Ha! Excellent!
> 
> Thanks for the warning. I'll ask to borrow AJ's skirt.


*snort*


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

If I've been tracking, I'm thinking that supportive suckitude is the "everyone's a winner, even when you are not" kind of thing that I see in the public schools. Everyone gets an award, whether they did anything to earn it or not, so there won't be any hard feelings. It's the attitude that gives us 15 valedictorians at the graduation instead of just one. Or, we wouldn't want to damage self esteem now would we by naming mediocrity for what it actually is? Etc. Am I tracking correctly?


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## TVC15 (Jun 6, 2004)

formica said:


> If I've been tracking, I'm thinking that supportive suckitude is the "everyone's a winner, even when you are not" kind of thing that I see in the public schools. Everyone gets an award, whether they did anything to earn it or not, so there won't be any hard feelings. It's the attitude that gives us 15 valedictorians at the graduation instead of just one. Wouldn't want to damage self esteem now would we by naming mediocrity for what it actually is? Etc. Am I tracking correctly?


I think so. When we can account for only a slight strength advantage that men enjoy in the sport, yet assume that such vast disparities in riding skill between the genders are "natural" (and as such insurmountable), we perpetuate a lie that limits ourselves and all women who bike.

Calling mediocrity for what it is at least brings attention to the b.s. we've been buying. And selling, for that matter.


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## Di_bear (Sep 3, 2006)

A lot of the women I know, myself included, are actually quite aggressive when they ride. So, sure, ride like a girl, and have fun kicking the guys arses when you pass them. :-D So, yeah, I ride like a girl, and I have a shirt that says so.


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## Consuela (Jun 13, 2008)

*Enjoy Yourself!*

The most important thing about mtb, to me, is to enjoy yourself. Whether you are male or female.

For many of us, we like to see improvement, whether it is riding further/faster/stronger, improving technical skills, getting in better shape, whatever your personal goal is. Heck, probably most of the folks on mtbr fall into this group. Even within this group, some of us respond better to different types of encouragement, right? Some will try almost anything right from the start and some like to take baby steps and lots are somewhere in between the two. Some of us like to be challenged (bet you can't do xyz) and others respond better to a more delicate encouragement. It's all good.

For others, they are happy to simply enjoy the social aspect of the activity and get some fresh air. I say "activity" because to this group, mtb is more of an activity than a sport. To them, mtb may be similar to going for a walk or hike with a friend. Who knows, maybe at some point, this person may move into the other group at some point. But, in the mean time, who cares? Well, except maybe their spouse who really wants them to ride more (or maybe less hehe). 

I ride with both types and encourage each differently. If I were to ever be so lucky as to ride with Connie, I'd egg her on (once I caught up to her) cause I know she'd love it and step up with excitement. When I am lucky enough to get one of my social-riding gfs out there for her semi-annual ride, grace will abound and anything she does will be "awesome" because I am happy she even came out.

So, to each their own. Go enjoy yourself and be safe!


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Who cares?*



Garlock said:


> Compare female athletes with men athletes. Sure, there are a few cases in which women are better, but most of the time, male athletes are superior.
> 
> I saw the top girl racer in my state in a race, and thought she was really good. My friend, who is just getting back into riding, beat her in the timing chart.
> Yes, there are many good female riders that would kick my ass, but compared to male riders of the same competitive level, they are "inferior".
> ...


I didn't know this was a contest to find out which gender is superior. I hope YOU feel better having called women "inferior." You have missed the whole point of this thread. Go away.


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## eschmid (Jun 20, 2007)

*I ride like a girl...*

A far as strength is considered, I am weaker than most men.I didn't grow up riding BMX and doing wheelies and jumps in the vacant lot. I have been riding for 20 years, but didn't get the freeriding bug until I was 33--5 years ago. I have made a lot of progress and I am very proud of my accomplishments. My biggest accomplishmentt has been to make people wish that they could *RIDE LIKE A GIRL!* Make it a compliment!


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## eschmid (Jun 20, 2007)

*I can ride like a girl but I can't post pictures!*

*RIDE LIKE A GIRL!​*


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## jewels (Mar 17, 2004)

wow what a thread. Go eschmind, :thumbsup: looks like Falls City, Blackrock.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*So the answer is....*

yes and no. 
This has been a very revealing thread about how mountain bikers see each other. Great stuff from great people.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

athalliah said:


> On a side note, I've no idea why any woman would ever refer to herself as a diva. Who would want to describe themselves as being high-maintenance, haughty and spoiled?


The bright side is that chicks who like to get dirty are typically on the other end of the spectrum where divas lie. And there's enough of the Porsche driving permatanned Wall St. wannabes to keep the available divas busy. No offense meant to those poor Porsches! Sweet handling...

Yeah, once upon a time girls played with dolls and boys got dirty. As a man I am still annoyed that the majority of women still prefer clinging to the stereotype instead of letting it go and hitting the trails. I'd love to see the same mix of men/women at the local trailhead that you'd see at say, the local coffeeshop.

Then again the majority of men prefer sucking up cheap beer in front of the TV instead of getting out more. So isn't it just wonderful that some of us enjoy athletic activities minus the hangups?

FWIW I've seen just as much attitude from female jocks trying to prove something as I've seen insecure dudes making moronic comments. Some people just can't check their baggage at the trailhead. Maybe if we charged $50 per bag like the airlines everyone would just lighten up?

That's my two dollars (post 2008 inflation adjusted cents).


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## Corvette (Nov 20, 2005)

Ridin' like a girl.


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## eschmid (Jun 20, 2007)

*where?*

Those are beautiful and bad-ass photos--where is that? Thanks to the women in these photos, "riding like a girl" is a complement!


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## Corvette (Nov 20, 2005)

It's the sunny side of the Alps. More passion here, some clips included:

http://tabla.mtb.si/gallery/08
http://www2.arnes.si/~mcuder/ture_dnevnik.html


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## santacruzchick (Jun 27, 2007)

Okay, how about the phrase "you're pretty good. .. .. for a girl" I absolutely hate that! You all k now what it implies so I don't have to launch into it. But could we all just start telling guys how insulting it is when we hear that. I think too many women just keep their mouths shut on this. There are lots of women out there who deserve respect as athletes in their own right, not as females, but as competitors at the highest levels, and it is incredibly dismissive of them and their abilities and talents.


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

*Saw proof that girls rule...*

This weekend my husband and I helped a friend with the Gold Rush Adventure Race by posting updates on the web. This is the final results page. http://sleepmonsters.com/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6869&article_id=5493

The people that participated in this event were just amazing athletes. The race started at 8 AM Saturday and continued into Sunday afternoon with the winning team completing at about 9AM Sunday. Bev, the only woman on the winning team, was really inspiring and proved what it meant to ride/run/paddle/rappel like a girl.

The weather turned yucky at 3PM on Saturday and with the temps dropping at night, it was not a pleasant experience. My duties included getting interviews from as many of the racers as possible. I approached Bev and her team at 8 or 9 PM and started asking questions. She was smiling and going strong and even joking. Twelve hours later, her team is the winners by a long shot, she's changing into dry clothes, and still joking around, including showing off her "guns" to one of the guys.

Again and again I feel fortunate to encounter people that are amazing. I find it hard that any of us can feel that "riding like a girl" is anything but complimentary when there are women out there everyday who prove just what it really means. As for finding "...for a girl" an insult, think of it the same way. Be complimented because it usually is said by a guy being intimidated by a girl. Just think "ha, I've bested him, cool!"

Fiona


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