# Statin cholesterol control drugs



## mattbyke (Jan 14, 2015)

Hello , I'm 45 and in elite condition . My latest blood work indicates very high cholesterol. Good numbers and triglycerides are excellent. But my liver is making too much cholesterol. 
Do any others here use a statin? And if so what can I expect , side effect wise, especially in regards to intense cycling . 
Thanks


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Do your research, and do it well. Don't leave anything to compromise.

I do not use, nor do I need to any medication. I'm no expert on this subject, but I know of several friends that have been on Statins and other cholesterol related medications that have experienced significant issues.

What's your advice on control through diet or perhaps other, more passive medications?


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## kyle242gt (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm 42, in nobody's idea of elite condition.

I've been on a small dose for a while. No untoward side effects, though I miss grapefruit juice. Annual (ish) bloodwork shows nothing untoward other than the expected decrease in cholesterol.

I take the healthy liver results as proof that beer is good for me.


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## Sim (Jul 5, 2010)

I was on the original Statin study in the 80's and took them for 20 years. All I can say is stay away, they are toxic. Take Clear2land's advice and do your research. This is a good place to start if you want a different point of view from big pharma. Thincs - The International network of cholesterol skeptics


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## mattbyke (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks so far. I'm well aware of the drugs toxicity. 
I'm thankful for real world experience from actual athletes. .


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

I am 43, and not elite. My total cholesterol was up around 300 many years ago. I started donating blood. Every 8 weeks. My numbers dropped. Dramatically. Hovering right around 200 now. 

People think I am crazy, but without a medical degree, and in my messed up head, this is what is happening. As I donate whole blood, my liver can not replace the cholesterol as fast as I am "blood letting", so the numbers drop. Now, it took some time to get down 100 points, it wasn't just giving once or twice. It was being vigilant in every 8 weeks. I also noticed if I stretched it to 12 weeks or longer, the cholesterol would increase slightly. 

Give blood, get a t-shirt, and help some neighbors, and lower cholesterol. It's a win all around. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I would ask my doc about gemfribozil, doesn't shrink your brain like the statins do.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

bsieb said:


> I would ask my doc about gemfribozil, doesn't shrink your brain like the statins do.


Oat-meal, it does lower 10-15%, and there is always niacin ... if it matters at all for people who exercise and are not obese ...


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

mattbyke said:


> Hello , I'm 45 and in elite condition . My latest blood work indicates very high cholesterol. Good numbers and triglycerides are excellent. But my liver is making too much cholesterol.
> Do any others here use a statin? And if so what can I expect , side effect wise, especially in regards to intense cycling .
> Thanks


When you say your total cholesterol is high, what are the exact numbers. Also what is you HDL/LDL ratio? Also, have you been checked for HCV?

Statins can have side effects in some people but are generally safe. I am assuming your diet is already good and diet alone many not do enough.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

mattbyke said:


> Hello , I'm 45 and in elite condition .


If you have high cholesterol to the point you need statins, you are NOT in "elite condition".

I've had high cholesterol since I was a kid but have controlled it with diet and exercise.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phillbo said:


> If you have high cholesterol to the point you need statins, you are NOT in "elite condition".
> 
> I've had high cholesterol since I was a kid but have controlled it with diet and exercise.


Don't be dumb, some people have hereditary Cholesterol problems and no amount of diet and exercise can change it. I know someone who has been a vegetarian for 30 years and still had numbers in the 300's.

Some people have no choice if they want to lower the number. Now there is plenty of debate as to how bad that number actually is for you. Traditional Medicine still wants those numbers lower. I am currently on 3 different Cholesterol Meds, but I have a serious Condition called an Aortic Dissection and I need to keep mine down to prevent any plaque from getting into the Dissection and causing problems for me.

Only one of my three is a statin, and it is a low dosage and so far I have not had any side effects from it. I am also on Niacin and Phenofibrate. I also take three different Blood Pressure medicines in a very high dosage. If you want to read more about my condition I have a thread in the SoCal Forum:
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html

Also, I just turned 37 this month, my dissection happened in the summer of 2012.


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## mattbyke (Jan 14, 2015)

My condition is not diet related. My liver is over producing. It's hereditary. My bad numbers are 257/176. 
There is debate about what is high. I've read that the new school thinking is 330 to be the high number start. 
Also what is considered a low statin dose?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

When you say your high cholesterol is not diet related, does that mean you don't put any cholesterol into your body? Yes, our bodies make cholesterol, but generally, high cholesterol issues are diet related. Someone above mentioned knowing a vegetarian with high cholesterol, vegetarianism comes in many forms. Before ruling out diet, try cutting out artificially introduced cholesterol at different levels. Unlike the drugs, it will not have any negative health issues.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

mattbyke said:


> My condition is not diet related. My liver is over producing. It's hereditary. My bad numbers are 257/176.
> There is debate about what is high. I've read that the new school thinking is 330 to be the high number start.
> Also what is considered a low statin dose?


1/4th what they prescribe

most usual problem with statins is muscle recovery after hard efforts is delayed

lifting weights can lower cholesterol...muscle damage mops ups cholesterol it's what muscles crave

no other advice. I'd get a complete workup and get all tests for heart and artery health passed. if they are all 100% skip the statins

ankle-brachial index test, 
C-reactive protein (CRP) test, 
coronary calcium scan.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

If you have no other risk factors, i.e. family history, overweight and such, I'd stay away from meds.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Athletes and Statins | Endurance Corner


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## drag_slick (Sep 24, 2004)

I'm genetically screwed cholesterol wise and I've been able to get buy with taking plant stanol suppliments.


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## keithrad (May 4, 2007)

My doctor recommended 20mg of atorvastatin a day for my cholesterol. It was up around 270. I didn't question it. Subsequently I eat what I want, and drink plenty of beer. Sometimes I feel like running, lifting weights and generally work on fitness and diet, but most of the time not so much. At 47 years old I'm no athlete or in ELITE condition (obviously). I'm a pretty simple dude. It hurts my brain to think about all this kind of stuff. Now y'all are carrying on with all this talk...thanks...There's probably 4 people who would genuinely miss me if I were gone, and the world will keep spinning.

No apparent side effects, except... **** where did that come from?? hmmmmmm


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

To the OP: what's your diet like? I'm not in "elite" condition (whatever that is) and have no issues at all at 45. I eat limited animal products. Once you get on big pharmas crack, you'll just need more and more ...


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

There's some pretty poor advice coming here. 

Firstly, some familial forms of lipid disorder certainly are associated with artery disease and cannot be dismissed. That's not to say just because the family tend to high cholesterol that it is a familial dyslipidaemia that will inevitably cause artery disease. 

Second, managing cholesterol with low animal fat/low saturated fat diets is pure garbage and historically associated with an increase in inflammatory vascular disease. Low fat, no fat, avoid animal fat for better fat is a pack of marketing rubbish with no basis in science or health outcomes. Vascular disease is an inflammatory condition where cholesterol becomes involved: it does not cause it it. There is increasing evidence the use of poly and mono unsaturated oils (esp when heated) actually causes vascular disease. Saturated fats are more stable when heated and should be used for cooking. 

Third, there is no benefit from statins when used to lower cholesterol in the absence of vascular disease. Get a coronary artery calcium score (CT scan) and if there is a score of zero, the best benefit you can expect is about a 2% potential reduction in CVS events, but more likely no benefit at all, combined with any adverse event the drug produces. 

Fourth, if you are not having a flu vaccination, consider it. In proven vascular disease there is a 50% reduction in events for vaccinated people versus non-vaccinated.

Fifth, if you do have to take a statin, also take magnesium orotate - it must be orotate. It reduces adverse muscle and mental effects by increasing mitochondrial regeneration and cellular energy production.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

"Saturated fats are more stable when heated and should be used for cooking."

"Low fat, no fat, avoid animal fat for better fat is a pack of marketing rubbish with no basis in science or health outcomes."

That's why the Deep South has the worlds longest lived people.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> To the OP: what's your diet like? I eat limited animal products. Once you get on big pharmas crack, you'll just need more and more ...


I have to concur. But, we don't know the all of the real details here.

I'm am not necessarily anti-big pharma. There is a place for many pharmaceutical applications.

I just believe that many of today's physicians are a little too quick on pulling the prescription trigger before exploring (seemingly) more practical, user friendly solutions.

The prescription merry-go-round often comes with a harsh mistress.

That seems to come as a surprise to many.

As I stated earlier...Do your research, and do it well.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

"*That's why the Deep South has the worlds longest lived people.*"

All immunised people die. That's a much more solid link than a prejudiced, blanket opinion of the lifestyle of people of the deep south. I am not qualified to comment on the health of the US deep south. Perhaps that is more of a sociopolitical challenge for America.

Vascular disease is not about a yes or no to statins, or avoiding animal products. Ghee and lard are probably the best oils for high heat. Cooking meat with it's own fat on is not wrong. I stand by my comments.


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## mm9 (Apr 22, 2008)

mattbyke said:


> Hello , I'm 45 and in elite condition . My latest blood work indicates very high cholesterol. Good numbers and triglycerides are excellent. But my liver is making too much cholesterol.
> Do any others here use a statin? And if so what can I expect , side effect wise, especially in regards to intense cycling .
> Thanks


I've been in a similar boat over the past several years, considering a Statin. I had three different experiences with Doctors:

1) Doc 1 - Traditional Doctor - You have high cholesterol - you may want to try a statin. Here is a sample pack you can try for a while.

2) Doc 2 - Traditional Doctor who is also an avid Cyclist. You have high cholesterol, but your calcium score on your heart scan is zero. I wouldn't suggest a statin if you are getting a 0 score because of all of the side effects of statins. And, we (medical profession) are re-thinking the way we look at Cholesterol, and statins. Really liked that Doc. He retired.

3) Doc 3 - Medical Doctor with certificates in Functional medicine. Much more detailed blood tests than the first two. (IE: lipo-proteins, various measures of inflammation, various ratios of detailed sub categories etc.) You have overall high cholesterol, but at the detailed level some bad results and some good results which offset each other. Overall, not too worried at this point. Agreed with Dr. number 2 on no statins because of good scan results. Does not suggest statins, but instead suggested diet and supplement changes to bring several detailed measures into better alignment.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, wait-how widespread are these statin issues/side effects really? I've been on them for years-my cholesterol is well controlled and liver function is fine. I'm not a racer, don't really consider myself an athelete, elite or otherwise-I just like to pedal, ride 4000 or so miles a year, road and trail combined. I'm not as fast as I used to be and am often stiff and sore but I chalk that up to age and mileage. I'm not opposed to the idea of backing off dosage but I don't know if getting off them altogether would be a good choice. (lots of strokes and heart attacks in my family history)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Just to inject a little reality... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005783DHC?redirect=true&ref_=kinw_myk_ro_title


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

bsieb said:


> Just to inject a little reality... The Great Cholesterol Con: The Truth About What Really Causes Heart Disease and How to Avoid It - Kindle edition by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


It is someone's opinion, so I guess it's reality. I do agree with the author's view on pharmaceutical companies. Generally, if you are looking to pharmaceutical companies to make your life better, you are on the wrong path.


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm nowhere near elite (in anything), but here's some info ...

FWIW, I was in good, athletic shape, and ate pretty well when I had my heart-attack at 38. Unfortunately, I was genetically disposed.

Everybody's different ... but I've been taking Lipitor (along with Metoprolol, Lisinopril and Plavix) since my event over 10yrs now, and have had virtually no side effects (from any of the meds). I get regular check-ups, and my numbers are good (all the way around).

Btw, I'm very active, and eat even better than I did before (lots of fruits, veggies and some fish). I don't eat red meat, very little pork, and I continue to eat eggs (4x weekly), and I still like my beer, tequila, mezcal and wine... but all in moderation - well, for the most part anyway.

Regarding cycling, I have no problems ramping up my heart rate (without any ill effects), and can sustain intensity for awhile, at which point I just back off a little, take some deep breaths, and go at it again. I'm mostly doing 1.5 to 2hr aggressive singletrack riding about 5x weekly.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Mine was pretty high, I am very active, lift daily, and was eating OK I thought. Tried a statin and I noticed when lifting my muscles wouldn't relax to the point it hurt during the workout. Stopped the statin and started a better diet along with niacin and dropped it over 60 points in 3 months. BTW I am 172 pounds and 5'9 and in pretty good shape.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

woodchips said:


> I was in good, athletic shape, and ate pretty well when I had my heart-attack at 38.


Heart attacks aren't about athletic conditioning.


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

alphazz said:


> Heart attacks aren't about athletic conditioning.


While I did not state that heart attacks are about athletic conditioning, and just stated my very basic condition when I had my event, I do think athletic conditioning can have an effect on your heart, and well being.

In my case, I was a recreational athlete, my doctors remarked that if I wasn't in decent athletic shape, I probably would have had my event sooner, and there was a good chance I would not have survived if it weren't for my conditioning.

Now, regarding prolonged intense athletic conditioning, this can produce changes to the heart that are similar to those of certain heart diseases. For instance, some elite athletes had a higher risk than recreational athletes of developing an arrhythmia.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

My mom is a real health nut. She has been a vegetarian all her adult life and a vegan for 30 years. Her cholesterol has always been high.

She gave up worrying about it. She is in her mid-80s and in great health and has a great figure to boot.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Take this for what it's worth, but when you sit down and cramp, or you stand up and cramp, or you breathe and cramp, until finally you cramp while riding, crash, and tear your hamstring, it's time to throw those statins in the trash. Or at least it was for me. Personally I've got no interest in extending my life if I can't enjoy doing what I want in the extra years.

Yes, I told my doctor I was having cramping problems before I figured out it was the statins. He told me to stretch more, increase hydration, and not ride so hard. Haven't been back to him either.


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## CEB (Mar 17, 2005)

Statins WILL be the subject of the next wave of attorney commercials "Have you taken (insert name) and have suffered irreparable damage to your liver or now have diabetes? Then you may be able to receive "compensation " due to your damages. Call this number now".

I have already seen several of these, lipitor being the "name" for now. The suits WILL prevail, but the profits from the 30+ years of selling these will outweigh any and all settlements. Follow the dollars..... that's all you have to do.

Do not take these "medicines" that alter your vital organs.


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## NRP (Sep 8, 2015)

This is an interesting thread. I too have high cholesterol, which I have controlled with a statin (only med I take). I have not experienced any side effects in my day-to-day life. However, when training for my first half marathon earlier this year, I did notice a lot of soreness in my shins and lower legs. I just assumed it was due to running long distances, which is pretty grueling anyway you look at it. Could some of that have been the med?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

CEB- Interesting, the book I referenced above presents a pretty solid case that low cholesterol is associated with high mortality, and that an overall level of 4.5 to 6.5 is normal and associated with low mortality. My son who runs a hospital lab said the research is solid. I have been rethinking my own levels, which the VA now wants below 4.0 overall, which it appears, will kill me. I was taken off statins for a fibrate, and my cholesterol levels have pretty much remained constant. I quit taking the fibrate (gemfibrozil) and will be interested to see my 6 month lab results. Another concern about statins that my son expressed was that the brain, which is largely fat, might also be affected by the statins. (I feel like I'm not as smart as I used to be. ) Anyhow, it appears that much of the effects of statins are not being reported in terms of overall mortality and associated birth defects. 

I'm just passing on what I am thinking and doing, my vested interest is my own health, longevity on my bike, and a snappy brain.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm one of the lucky ones. I found out recently that, I'm one of those freaks of nature that can eat tons of pizza, hotdogs, hamburgers etc and still only come up with a cholesterol of about 120.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Ericmopar said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones. I found out recently that, I'm one of those freaks of nature that can eat tons of pizza, hotdogs, hamburgers etc and still only come up with a cholesterol of about 120.


Are you fit? That seems to be a big factor too. It's important to have good genetics also.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Statins will kill your sex drive and your muscles will always be weak, sore and tired-feeling. Don't fall for Big Pharma's Cholesterol Lie...I personally know a half-dozen people who had cholesterol well above 300, and all lived well past their 80s(two into their mid-nineties).


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## Paulie_G (Feb 23, 2013)

Going over this with my wife, who works in the Cardiovascular field, she says yes statins can cause liver damage, and yes, they can cause muscle aches, she has never heard of this them causing your brain to shrink. Some cholesterol issues are heredity, and no amount of excerise and "perfect" diet will matter. The HCV test is not widely used as a cardiac marker. Most doctors will prescribe a Statin purely based on cost and it easier to obtain through insurance. It's plain and simple. Take fish oil and a baby aspirin, and try Crestor. It will lower your numbers quickly and can be used in lower doses.


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## Paulie_G (Feb 23, 2013)

My wife is curious about what meds you're taking. You're lucky to have been in the care of the physicians at Scripps and Scripps Green.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

About the only one with any sense around here seems to be Paulie_G's wife. The anecdotal bs in this thread being passed off as medical advice by guys with a junior high schoool science background's is pretty much what I expected when I saw the title of the thread.

Okay, those who said "educate yourself" were also on the right track, but if you're going to be suspicious of "big pharma" also be suspicious of those making their living selling books that attack big pharma. Best is to go to the raw data through searching PubMed.

If you're not in a position to analyze the raw data, start here for the least bias view you're going to find https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/statins.html

Then, go talk to your doctor or find a doctor who has experience dealing with maturing athletes and weigh their advice against what you've learned. Good luck.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

SS Hack said:


> Are you fit? That seems to be a big factor too. It's important to have good genetics also.


Not lately. My Dr says I'm in good shape for my age, but he's judging on a curve. IE he's comparing me to the average couch potato 50 something. I know on paper it's pretty good, with low BP, Cholesterol etc, but I can't climb some large hills anymore. 
The occasional ride to my local trails doesn't lead to soreness though. So I must have some kind of core fitness still.


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## oldmxdog61u (Oct 15, 2015)

Thief of Memory by Dr Duane Graveline.

Sure made me think.

I use a statin, yearly monitor my blood and functions, add CoQ10, exercise frequently, and watch my HC homocysteine as an early indicator.

I had no results from a strict diet, including smelling like fish oil, niacin, etc etc. My doctor says its genetics. he also agreed that if I cannot obtain a quality of life ON statins, he would support my decision to get OFF them.

Meanwhile, I went thru several brands with reactions and dropped them each time. I finally ended up with Crestor, but I am using the minimum does for my situation to obtain the results I want without the aforementioned physical issues (cramping, joint pain, etc). This happens to be 5mg 5x weekly.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

This thread should be merged in with the one where people were talking about fried pork skin burritos. The circle would be complete.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

oldmxdog61u said:


> Thief of Memory by Dr Duane Graveline.
> 
> Sure made me think.
> 
> ...


What was the strict diet and what did it include?


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

SS Hack said:


> This thread should be merged in with the one where people were talking about fried pork skin burritos. The circle would be complete.


Pop a Nitroglycerin after chomping-down that Chicharrone Burrito. FC knows....


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

oldmxdog61u said:


> Thief of Memory by Dr Duane Graveline.
> 
> Sure made me think.
> 
> ...


Magnesium orotate can reverse and prevent the adverse effects off statins. It has to be Mg orotate.

If you are around 50 years of age get a CT coronary calcium score. If it = Zero, then stop the statins.


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

PeT said:


> About the only one with any sense around here seems to be Paulie_G's wife. The anecdotal bs in this thread being passed off as medical advice by guys with a junior high schoool science background's is pretty much what I expected when I saw the title of the thread.
> 
> Okay, those who said "educate yourself" were also on the right track, but if you're going to be suspicious of "big pharma" also be suspicious of those making their living selling books that attack big pharma. Best is to go to the raw data through searching PubMed.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice.

As a clinical exercise physiologist with nearly 20 years experience in the cardiovascular field I can tell you:

1. Statins work for most people. Work damn well, too.

2. Some people on statins have side effects that significantly impair their quality of life. Those people shouldn't take statins.

3. Statins are safe for the vast majority of people. Elevated enzymes on a Liver Function Test do NOT indicate permanent damage to the liver. Some people don't tolerate statins. Go back and read #2 again.

4. I have never heard of "brain shrinking" associated with statins in more than 25 years of reading the peer reviewed research on the subject.

5. The benefits of statins extend beyond lowering cholesterol. They also stabilize vulnerable plaques in the coronary arteries making them less likely to rupture.

6. Not all coronary artery disease can be identified with a calcium score. In fact, the most dangerous lesions aren't usually calcified at all. No calcium = low calcium score. Google it.

7. If there is a lower limit to cholesterol levels beyond which a person's health suffers, we have yet to find that limit. Early '90's research that purported to show this has since been revealed to be seriously flawed in both study design and data interpretation.

8. Nearly all reputable physicians believe that the benefits of statin therapy greatly outweigh the risks for the vast majority of the population. Within the medical community, the invention of statins ranks right along side the discovery of penicillin. Some people are allergic to penicillin. Those people shouldn't take it. So it is with statins.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry for the long story. A year ago May, I went to the doctor for a checkup. I got on the scale and was aghast that it read 267 pounds. I had gotten fat again. Within a few days, my wife and I discussed changing our diet from the ground up (low glycemic index foods). I also committed to getting back into good riding shape. 
A week later I got a call from the doctor and had to go for a follow up appointment. My LDL, the bad cholesterol, was 166. My doctor was emphatic that I ABSOLUTELY HAD TO start taking statins. We had a pretty sharp argument because I refuse to take them for any reason whatsoever. He finally relented and scheduled a 3 month follow up appointment for me knowing that the results would be the same.

I found a place online called requestatest.com. They will schedule tests for you at many testing labs. Since I was on the new diet and exercising, I decided to test my cholesterol every 2 weeks and see how it changed. They call it a lipid panel. Two weeks after starting our new diet and cycling regularly, my LDL dropped to 114. That is a 52 point drop in 2 weeks.

When I went to my doctor for the 3 month follow up, he looked at me kind of funny and told me that I looked different. He was in shock that I'd dropped 50+ pounds in 3 months and my bloodwork was all acceptable. I've since dropped another 15 to 20 pounds and am keeping it off by eating sensible and keeping the cardio active.

The sad fact is that a lot of people are unwilling to change their diet and exercise to get off of the drugs. Doctors always advise to eat right and exercise more but less than 1% of patients ever do so. I am now 100% drug free and plan on staying active so that I never have to take any medications.

Although dietary cholesterol doesn't have as much impact on blood cholesterol as once thought, I believe that what we eat can have a impact on how our body makes cholesterol. There are also genetic factors involved and it seems that some people are predisposed to high cholesterol levels. I don't know of any studies that have been done on people with predisposed high levels that do regular cardio exercises.

To take statins or not is an individual decision. I personally will not take them. I assume that everyone here is cardio active but diet can still play a big part of the game. Learn the foods that help increase or even decrease cholesterol and focus on dietary changes if it can help get you off of these drugs. One thing that we avoid is processed wheat.

Do your own research and don't stop because of anything I or anyone else has said. Everyone is different and in the end we need to be informed and make decisions that are best for us.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

PeT said:


> About the only one with any sense around here seems to be Paulie_G's wife. The anecdotal bs in this thread being passed off as medical advice by guys with a junior high schoool science background's is pretty much what I expected when I saw the title of the thread.
> 
> Okay, those who said "educate yourself" were also on the right track, but if you're going to be suspicious of "big pharma" also be suspicious of those making their living selling books that attack big pharma. Best is to go to the raw data through searching PubMed.
> 
> ...


Sending people to the primary literature is great but do you really expect them to understand it? Most physicians don't. Heck when a large study comes out saying that statins reduce the risk of cardiovascular events by 35%, do you think people really understand what that means?

Take it further, if people read and understood the current literature on cancer screening, we are talking mammograms, do you think the public could handle that?


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Had a checkup yesterday and asked about statin side effects. (I've been on them for a decade or so) The PA is a pretty straight shooter-he said that sometimes side effects can be related to the specific med and changing brands will help, but sometimes it's the whole class of meds and you have to get off them. He said if I felt I was having symptoms, that it wouldn't hurt to quit them for a month and see what changes occurred. I have weaker muscles and aches and pains but I think plain old age and abuse are more likely the cause of most. If I feel a notable increase in joint pain or something, I might try quitting them for a while...


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ For me personally, it's not always about the side effects, but what some long term consumption can do to your system. There are plenty of things we can consume and not have any side effects, but are they really good for us?


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> ^^^^ For me personally, it's not always about the side effects, but what some long term consumption can do to your system.  There are plenty of things we can consume and not have any side effects, but are they really good for us?


Yeah...I think you just described the concept of "side effects" and tried to distinguish between short term/immediate consequences and long term consequences. I believe those in the medical care field would refer to both situations as "side effects".

For what it's worth, my reading of the literature and my physician's advice agree that if you tolerate statins from the start you'll almost certainly have no issues with them long term (as you age). I have a colleague who (unfortunately) went through multiple rounds of chemotherapy and came out on the other side no longer able to tolerate the statin she had previously used for years without any side effects. My colleague's change in tolerance is certainly understandable considering the known ravaging side effect of chemotherapy -- but her treatment was successful so worth both the agony of the process and loss of statin tolerance (considering the alternative).


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

There are too many BS posts in this thread to respond to them all. 

Short story. I would be dead without statins. Uncles died of heart attacks in 30's and 40's. 

You can pretend that Statins don't work, that they are a big pharma conspiracy, and all that, but let's see the data. 

The data on the safety and efficacy of statin use is overwhelming, and it's easy to find.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

smilinsteve said:


> I would be dead without statins. Uncles died of heart attacks in 30's and 40's.


Obviously, you are a candidate for these pharmaceuticals that are a necessity in your life. There are unquestionably people that need statins to carry on with the day-to-day functions. For others, it's an easy way to continue their unhealthy lifestyle such as diet and exercise. And, some physicians are quick with scripting these as a quick fix for which some will gladly accept. I see this first hand with some that I work with.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

I did a search to find this topic and here is what is going on with me. I am a 61 year old female that rides both road and off-road. When I started riding regularly two years ago I was overweight at 162 pounds and my total cholesterol was over 300. I lost 42 pounds and my numbers dropped like a rock but not low enough for my doctor. Now I'm 120 pounds and she started me on Livalo 4mg last week. If it hinders my riding I will stop it. I have familial high cholesterol and diet and exercise has taken it as low as it can go. I eat like a health nut and rarely eat sugar or saturated fats. My current numbers are HDL-58, LDL-138, and Triglycerides-91. My total cholesterol is just over 200 and that's the limit of where doctors want it to be.

So far, ultrasounds on my arteries have found NO plaque buildup at all but since my dad had a major stroke at 52 due to blockage and my mom has had blockage with stents installed, my doctor says I need to be on it, nevermind that my dad was 100 pounds overweight and liked his high fat diet and my mom's HDL is non-existent since she is pretty much sedentary at 83. Both had/have high blood pressure. My blood pressure at my checkup was 124/78 first check and 99/78 second check (after I sat still for a few seconds) at the doctors office.

Since I'm extremely active and I eat right I won't hesitate to get myself off this stuff if I see any performance or health issues.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Interesting read... Low Cholesterol Levels Associated with 990% Higher Mortality After Heart Attack


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

bsieb said:


> Interesting read... Low Cholesterol Levels Associated with 990% Higher Mortality After Heart Attack


This article refers to a small study that looked at short term survival rates after a heart attack. 
- The correlation that people with very low cholesterol had worse 30 day survival rates does not prove causation.
- The 990% figure is misleading, and refers to a comparison of high risk patients to low risk patients, not simply a comparison of outcomes between high and low LDL, as the articles author leads you to believe. 
- The study at it's outset acknowledges high LDL as a risk factor for CAD, so the authors attempt to use the study as some kind of arguement against statins is disingenuous. 
- The author of the article is an anti-statin zeolot, and he makes conclusions that the study does not make.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's more relevant information.
A meta analysis of 18 separate studies involving over 56,000 participants show that people on statins, who have no previous history of cardiovascular disease (primary prevention), finds what has been confirmed many times before, people who take statins have less risk of cardiovascular disease, less risk of dying from cardiovascular disease, and less risk of dying in general. People on statins live longer.

Statins for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease. - PubMed - NCBI


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

I was prescribed to use Simvastatin for a number of years by my Heart Specialist. I started seeing him after age 40 based on family history of my biological parents. I grew up in a different household with adoptive parents and have different eating/exercise habits than both of my biological parents - one is a smoker, the other has Type II diabetes which led both of them to the associated heart disease and heart attacks from their lifestyles - not to mention the subsequent lower quality of life issues as a result. Regardless, my GP sent me to see a heart specialist as part of my annual exam one year to get a baseline based on my familial history and start monitoring my heart health after I had mentioned my biological parents' heart history.

Blood tests revealed that my numbers were high enough that the cardiologist suggested a low dose statin for me even though I felt I was healthy as an ox and had no issues at the time. I asked him to give me 6 months to get my numbers down through diet/exercise before committing to a statin. He agreed to let me try (although my attempt wasn't as successful at the time as it is now because I didn't commit to losing enough weight or altering my diet to help very much). My numbers did improve slightly, but not enough to convince the cardiologist - so I boarded the statin box car with the other sheep. :nono: I took them for a number of years. Of course, my "numbers" were perfect :skep: with the medication according to my cardiologist, so I remained on them for years.

Fast forward about 7 years to the Spring of 2014 where I was having memory issues. Not the usual "I'm now over 50 and and the hunt for car keys in the morning, forgetting to do this or that, I can't remember where I left my sunglasses..." type of memory issues. Nope. It was worse. I was having trouble recalling most names, lyrics to songs, what I had done previously in the day or week. Enough to have me sufficiently worried.

The only medication I was taking was the statin, and after reading that memory issue can be a side effect of taking certain statins, I stopped taking it to see what would happen to my memory. About 2-3 weeks later memory began improving and within a few months totally returned to a level of excellent. That provided great relief to me and convinced me enough to move forward without the medication. Still lured in by the "fear" of high cholesterol numbers, I decided to drop 20 pounds by cutting weight from 188 down to 168 (I'm 6'4") and include in my daily diet certain foods that are well known to control/maintain cholesterol levels.

Needless to say, the weight cut and structured training led to one of my best years on the mountain bike - in terms of racing - during 2014 with a better power to weight ratio, less fatigue, and no muscle weakness which I had been experiencing off and on for the years I took the statin.

I have done much reading - as well as debating with my cardiologist - about the pros and cons of taking statins.

Typical articles like this that cover quite a few of the issues always give me pause to reflect on my decision making:

The Cholesterol Myth That Could Be Harming Your Health | Dr. Joseph Mercola

Statins Can Undo the Benefits of Exercise

Annual blood work is coming up for me along with my annual exam with the cardiologist. This has been year 2 for me without a statin since I pulled the plug in early 2014. My memory remains intact, energy levels are high, and using diet/exercise to enjoy the quality of life continues.

And I will continue to read, study and follow all of the latest developments found through studies.:thumbsup:


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Bruce I'd be interested to know how high your cholesterol was, and how much you were able to reduce it with diet and exercise. Congrats for doing so. 

Also, how low is it now compared to when you were on statins?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Bruce,
Good job trying to educate yourself on the topic, but I suggest reading the medical data directly, rather than articles by questionable sources. For example, Mercola is a liar and should not be trusted to give good information:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/9-reasons-to-completely-ignore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

Mercola?still lying after all these years ? denialism blog

FDA Orders Dr. Joseph Mercola to Stop Illegal Claims

Regarding your article on statin effects on aerobic exercise, here is a much larger study that contradicts those findings and finds no difference in VO2 max improvement between statin and non-statin groups:

Statin Therapy Does Not Attenuate Exercise Training Response in Cardiac Rehabilitation


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Bruce- +1, pretty much my experience too. My riding has greatly improved, feels relatively effortless to stay in shape/weight now. I was on simvastatin, later gemfibrozil, under VA care. Current VA online doc, better than we get out here in the middle of nowhere, agreed after review of my bi-annual blood work and checkup. Enjoyed the links.

Smilin'Steve- Your links are largely irrelevant and little more than rants, really. The excercise study was of cardiac patients , not athletes.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

smilinsteve said:


> Bruce I'd be interested to know how high your cholesterol was, and how much you were able to reduce it with diet and exercise. Congrats for doing so.
> 
> Also, how low is it now compared to when you were on statins?


My initial numbers way back when were what my cardiologist said were considered borderline high. Total number is what I remember most from then which stood at 237 on the first check. HDL was fine, but the other numbers were all borderline high. My first attempt (and it wasn't the best attempt I will admit, but I did give it a whirl) through diet and exercise dropped me to 216 total. My cardiologist said based on family history alone they needed to be lower.

That's when I began taking them. And of course, my total number dropped way below 200 total and all the HDL, LDL, and Tri #'s were picture perfect models for all the years I was taking the statin. Rubber stamp of approval every year I went in for annual exam. No matter what I ate, what my weight was, or how much cycling I was doing. In my case, we stuck with the Simvastatin with the same dosage because it was working according to the Doctor. Which all led to the main side-effect that was troubling me - my memory.

The first test about 6 months after stopping the medication last year, and after dropping 20 pounds were still all sub 200 with all numbers still hanging on within optimal levels. The drop in weight, my training being much different/more disciplined than a decade ago and my diet I'm sure all contributed. Hard to tell which specifically because all three happened at once.

This year's upcoming annual test and blood work will be interesting for a myriad of reasons: I didn't train as hard this year (fewer hours per week), I weigh 10 pounds more, but I have a better diet.

Edit: I rode a similar number of hours this year, but when I say_ didn't train as hard _- I didn't train as hard with the structured training to make me race fast this year. Focused more on longer road rides at less intensity and skipped most of the build/peak/race cycle that I should have done to be race fast due to other priorities in 2015.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

BruceBrown said:


> My initial numbers way back when were what my cardiologist said were considered borderline high. Total number is what I remember most from then which stood at 237 on the first check. HDL was fine, but the other numbers were all borderline high. My first attempt (and it wasn't the best attempt I will admit, but I did give it a whirl) through diet and exercise dropped me to 216 total. My cardiologist said based on family history alone they needed to be lower.
> 
> That's when I began taking them. And of course, my total number dropped way below 200 total and all the HDL, LDL, and Tri #'s were picture perfect models for all the years I was taking the statin. Rubber stamp of approval every year I went in for annual exam. No matter what I ate, what my weight was, or how much cycling I was doing. In my case, we stuck with the Simvastatin with the same dosage because it was working according to the Doctor. Which all led to the main side-effect that was troubling me - my memory.
> 
> ...


A 20% reduction through diet and exercise is a very good result. Considering your memory side effect problem, and the fact that you have achieved good numbers without medicine, you are on the right path.

My problem is much worse and diet and exercise could never come close to putting me in a safe range for my lipid numbers.

Fortunately, I tolerate statins well and have been on high dose statins for many years without issue. My sister is not so lucky. She can not tolerate statins and has the same hereditary cholesterol issue that I have. So she is stuck with an inability to treat her problem adequately, and therefore is at much increased risk for CAD. 
Fortunately, things have changed recently with a new class of cholesterol lowering drugs being FDA approved, called PCSK9 inhibitors. These drugs are specifically for people who can not control cholesterol with statins, not as a substitute for statins.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

PineyRose said:


> I did a search to find this topic and here is what is going on with me. I am a 61 year old female that rides both road and off-road. When I started riding regularly two years ago I was overweight at 162 pounds and my total cholesterol was over 300. I lost 42 pounds and my numbers dropped like a rock but not low enough for my doctor. Now I'm 120 pounds and she started me on Livalo 4mg last week. If it hinders my riding I will stop it. I have familial high cholesterol and diet and exercise has taken it as low as it can go. I eat like a health nut and rarely eat sugar or saturated fats. My current numbers are HDL-58, LDL-138, and Triglycerides-91. My total cholesterol is just over 200 and that's the limit of where doctors want it to be.
> 
> So far, ultrasounds on my arteries have found NO plaque buildup at all but since my dad had a major stroke at 52 due to blockage and my mom has had blockage with stents installed, my doctor says I need to be on it, nevermind that my dad was 100 pounds overweight and liked his high fat diet and my mom's HDL is non-existent since she is pretty much sedentary at 83. Both had/have high blood pressure. My blood pressure at my checkup was 124/78 first check and 99/78 second check (after I sat still for a few seconds) at the doctors office.
> 
> Since I'm extremely active and I eat right I won't hesitate to get myself off this stuff if I see any performance or health issues.


Your hereditary problem should not be taken lightly, and should worry you more than the possible risks of statin therapy.

It sounds like you have done an incredible job with your diet and exercise, but your LDL at 138 is still not optimal and it is unlikely to go any lower without pharmalogical help.

Your ultrasound results are good news. Being a woman has protected you, but after menopause, risks for females goes up.

The chances of having problems with your statin are very low, but you are right to be aware of the possible problems. I would try to have a positive outlook about it. For me, my statin is a blessing. It is like the best vitamin I could possibly take, and I am happy to take it every day. It will make me healthier and help me live longer.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

So far I feel fine on them. I think problems start after you have been on them a while though. My main concerns are extreme muscle pain/weakness and memory loss. I also have hypothyroidism and that combined with being post-menopausal and having the hereditary gene leaves no doubt that diet and exercise can't control it. I hope that I do well on them. She is testing my blood after 8 weeks of taking the statin and if that shows up good she will test every 6 months. My blood work prior to starting the statin showed that my liver count was excellent and so were my kidney's and blood sugar so hopefully they will agree with me.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

I hope I do as well on them as you do. My concerns are muscle pain/weakness and memory loss. Since I also have hypothyroidism along with the hereditary gene and I'm post-menopausal, there is no way I can not try them. She is checking my blood after 8 weeks on the statin and every 6 months after that, at least for a while. Prior to starting me on the statin my liver and kidney function was perfect and so was my sugar so hopefully all of that will remain good.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

PineyRose said:


> I hope I do as well on them as you do. My concerns are muscle pain/weakness and memory loss. Since I also have hypothyroidism along with the hereditary gene and I'm post-menopausal, there is no way I can not try them. She is checking my blood after 8 weeks on the statin and every 6 months after that, at least for a while. Prior to starting me on the statin my liver and kidney function was perfect and so was my sugar so hopefully all of that will remain good.


Chances are you will be fine. Good luck with it. One thing that did cross my mind was that your doctor has prescribed Levalo which has no generic equivalent. You could probably do as well with generic Atorvastatin (Lipitor) at a much lower cost. Maybe something to talk to your doc about next time, depending on how well your insurance covers you. 
For me, Crestor costs me about $100 bucks a month after insurance, and Atorvastin (which I will be switching to) will cost me closer to $10.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

smilinsteve said:


> Chances are you will be fine. Good luck with it. One thing that did cross my mind was that your doctor has prescribed Levalo which has no generic equivalent. You could probably do as well with generic Atorvastatin (Lipitor) at a much lower cost. Maybe something to talk to your doc about next time, depending on how well your insurance covers you.
> For me, Crestor costs me about $100 bucks a month after insurance, and Atorvastin (which I will be switching to) will cost me closer to $10.


Thanks! That was a concern for me as well. When I looked it up online, most people were paying $200 a month for it without insurance. I have good retiree insurance from P&G and my cost will be $56 a month after insurance for the Livalo. That's still pretty high IMO but not impossible. She gave me a coupon to get if for $18 a month for twelve months if I'm eligible. I checked online and the word is that Livalo should have a generic soon but if it doesn't I will talk to her for sure about a less expensive medicine. She mentioned trying me on Lipitor so she will switch me to that if I ask. Since I do have good insurance, getting a statin that is compatible with my body is important. Hopefully the generic will come out soon.

She tried me on Crestor a few years ago and it didn't do much for my numbers but my cost for it with insurance was only $20. I had to come off of it because after a year I was having joint pain. Of course, I was working 12 hours a day and most of it on my feet even though I was in leadership. I was also overweight so the joint pain might have been caused by something other than the Crestor. Hopefully this one will do better since I'm in better physical condition.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

bsieb said:


> Smilin'Steve- Your links are largely irrelevant and little more than rants, really. The excercise study was of cardiac patients , not athletes.


I've tried to keep everything I've posted factual with references to back it up. If you have anything specific to challenge, please do so, rather than giving me this general smear to try and discredit my effort.

Bruce posted a study on cardiac rehab patients that had a lesser aerobic benefit from exercise if they were on statins. As a result of that study, a larger and more complete study was done. The larger study found that the initial study findings did not hold true. I posted the larger study. You can't get more relevant than that.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

smilinsteve said:


> Chances are you will be fine. Good luck with it. One thing that did cross my mind was that your doctor has prescribed Levalo which has no generic equivalent. You could probably do as well with generic Atorvastatin (Lipitor) at a much lower cost. Maybe something to talk to your doc about next time, depending on how well your insurance covers you.
> For me, Crestor costs me about $100 bucks a month after insurance, and Atorvastin (which I will be switching to) will cost me closer to $10.


Followup! I have been on the Livalo for six weeks. I had blood drawn and my LDL has dropped from 130 six weeks ago to 86 today! I hope it keeps working without side effects. The only thing I have noticed is that my legs don't feel as strong as they did but that could be the weather. I can't ride outside as much and have been riding the NordicTrack bike indoors. It always makes my legs hurt more than riding outside for some reason. Different geometry I guess.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

PineyRose said:


> Followup! I have been on the Livalo for six weeks. I had blood drawn and my LDL has dropped from 130 six weeks ago to 86 today! I hope it keeps working without side effects. The only thing I have noticed is that my legs don't feel as strong as they did but that could be the weather. I can't ride outside as much and have been riding the NordicTrack bike indoors. It always makes my legs hurt more than riding outside for some reason. Different geometry I guess.


Nice result, congrats!


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

Thanks! I hope that when it gets down as far as she wants it to go that she will reduce the dosage. I'm taking the max right now and I figure that the higher the dosage the higher the risk of side effects.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Global study lays groundwork for daily statin usage to prevent heart disease

Global study lays groundwork for daily statin usage - CNN.com


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> Global study lays groundwork for daily statin usage to prevent heart disease
> 
> Global study lays groundwork for daily statin usage - CNN.com


*Global study lays groundwork for Astra Zeneca to make more profit by advertising selling Crestor to the ethnically diverse and women.* Over 40 and 7.5% risk over 10 years! Please. The lowest (real rather than predicted) risk group is 5% over 5 years and after 5 years a lot of people move into a higher risk group by being 5 years older! As a doctor I find the endless attempts of the industry to prove a value that does not exist really unsettling. There is a big difference between something that makes a difference to humanity and what makes a difference to shareholders.

Topol is right - the study has validity only by proving something already known and that is if you do not know whether the patient has definite inflammatory vascular disease the benefits of statins is extremely low. How about some real preventive medical research and not just vested interest studies?

Statins do have a place in secondary cardiovascular prevention and in cancer management. However, Astra Zeneca et al would prefer everyone with minimal cardiovascular risks take their statin than the smaller groups with disseminated cancer or established vascular disease. These people don't live as long, which is not what the shareholders want.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

As you near the end of your life.....the statistics become a zero sum game....

You are most certainly gonna die....the question is from what and how.

If you reduce the risk of dieing from heart disease with statins....seems to me the other major killers (oh and non killers) just get more likely.

ie 1 % drop in heart disease deaths equals say a .33% increase in cancer deaths a .33% increase in dementia, and a .33% increase in strokes.

Take away becareful what you hope for....there maybe unknown side effects.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

I've been taking a statin for the past 14 years. My cholesterol was 280, now it's somewhere around 150...give or take 10 points.

I do worry that I'm causing irreparable harm to my body, but I honestly haven't had any side effects that I'm aware of. I have always worked out 6 days a week and I've never had any muscle pain or weakness. 

A few summers ago I decided to really really lose weight and train for one of those Spartan races. Got myself in the best shape of my life...looked like I was 22 years old again...stopped taking the statins over the summer, I figured why bother? I need up getting a blood clot in my leg, then in my lungs...lucky to be alive today.

I don't know if stopping the statin caused that, because in my follow ups after the episode they told me my cholesterol wasn't all that bad...maybe 190-200 or so, but when meeting with a cardiologist later he said, cholesterol could cause a blood clot (they never found the reason why I clotted). Like I said, I don't know if the statin would have helped, but I have read that statins also have an anti-inflammation benefit - and inflammation I've read is the real problem - so perhaps it does help.

Personally I don't like having to take medication, again I feel psychologically like it is harming me, but now I also feel like I don't really have a choice. I eat right, I work out...I always have. With me its hereditary...can't do a thing about it. Meanwhile I friends that never work out, never eat right, are 40 pounds overweight...and they go to the doctors and receive clean bills of health (have never had a thing wrong with them in their lives). Yet these same people can't walk up a hill without getting gassed. It's weird.


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## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Just from reading a lot of links that people provided, it appears CoQ10 is being heavily pushed for people that exercise and take a statin. Statins apparently diminish your Q10 levels, and Q10 is needed to keep your heart beating. Perhaps I'll add that to my vitamin cabinet...with all the other supplements I supposedly "just have to take", based off all the internet stories I read. I might need to add another wing to my house for supplement storage.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

*Update on latest blood work:*

I've posted before in this thread and wanted to follow up since I am playing the game of LIFE in real time when it comes to cholesterol, family history, meds vs. no meds.

Obviously, there is no need to post personal health information, but I do so only to show how I got down from a Cholesterol score of 240'ish down to sub 200 within the context of this thread. My current weight is 166. I'm in shape, doing intervals, lifting weights, racing the mountain bike, eat well, all of this going into the annual blood work which this year (my third year being off the statins was...

Chol: 189
Trig: 19
HDL: 78
LDL: 107
Chol/HDL: 2.4

Maybe not as _perfect_ of numbers this time compared to 2014 or last year's numbers when my LDL was _optimal_ as opposed to *near optimal* this time around, but still all remain in the good range without medication.

*Reminder:* I pulled the plug 2 years ago on taking Simvastatin after 7 years of taking it which I mentioned in Post #61.

Part of my regular diet includes all of these natural cholesterol lowering foods (except #8 - margarine which I don't eat):

12 Foods That Lower Cholesterol Naturally

Plus blueberries, cinnamon, beets, red skinned apples, strawberries, grapes, etc... .

Not to worry, I eat plenty of everything else as well.:thumbsup:

Getting rid of the visceral fat (no love handles, no man-boobs, no belly) seems to be the key for me to maintain these good numbers. It ties in with the thread on this forum "Be honest: are you cut? Or sporting some flab?" - at least in terms of why I prefer to remain on the cut side of the equation.

I still listen to and read the reports on all of the benefits as well as risks of taking statins vs not taking statins. And I'm sure I will discuss this with my heart doctor at my annual check up which I have just scheduled now that the blood work is done and has been sent to him.


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## shellshocked (Jul 9, 2011)

As pointed out some including me have a hereditary issue. All the men in my family - grandfather (died of heart attack in 50's), father, uncles all had heart attacks in their late 40's - culprit very high cholesterol - but at that time about all they could do was eat right, exercise and take niacin but it did not do much. In my early thirties I did all I could to get cholesterol down - was in top fitness, ate right, even went on niacin. Did not make much difference. Started statins, cholesterol low for 20 years now, testing and doctor say I have no sign of heart disease in my mid-50s. No side effects. It has been a miracle drug for me, without it I would likely be dead.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

shellshocked said:


> As pointed out some including me have a hereditary issue. All the men in my family - grandfather (died of heart attack in 50's), father, uncles all had heart attacks in their late 40's - culprit very high cholesterol - but at that time about all they could do was eat right, exercise and take niacin but it did not do much. In my early thirties I did all I could to get cholesterol down - was in top fitness, ate right, even went on niacin. Did not make much difference. Started statins, cholesterol low for 20 years now, testing and doctor say I have no sign of heart disease in my mid-50s. No side effects. It has been a miracle drug for me, without it I would likely be dead.


Not discrediting those that need to take them due to super high genetic numbers no matter what they have tried to do to lower them.

I'm speaking to the crowd of folks who were put on statins by their doctor due to higher numbers, but have the ability to alter their lifestyle, cut weight, and get the numbers down through exercise, diet, and weight. I couldn't do it dropping from the 205-212 range down to 180 years ago on exercise and diet alone. I was in shape (winning races, lifting weight and looked buff) and felt good at the time, but numbers were still too high - as apparently my visceral fat for 6'4" at that weight was still too high. That visceral fat known as "skinny fat" in tall, lanky guys like myself is not good for one's cholesterol numbers. If you can pinch anything below the ribs, see any hint of a love handle, or excess in front or in the back of your waist - that's the stuff I'm talking about that has to be shed until one is most likely in the 10-15% body fat range.

The cut down to 165 (that was pretty much my slim and trim weight from teenage years all the way to age 40 - so I'm just back down to what was normal for 25 years) and eating enough of the cholesterol lowering foods in my daily diet combined with exercise has pulled it off and is keeping me off the meds going into my third consecutive year of doing this.

If my numbers had not dropped, believe me, I'd still be on them as well due to my family history. However, I've been bound and determined since early 2014 to do it without the medication. So far, so good.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

BruceBrown said:


> That visceral fat known as "skinny fat" in tall, lanky guys like myself is not good for one's cholesterol numbers. If you can pinch anything below the ribs, see any hint of a love handle, or excess in front or in the back of your waist - that's the stuff I'm talking about that has to be shed until one is most likely in the 10-15% body fat range.


Visceral fat means fat around the viscera - the internal organs. It can show as a beer belly, but it is not belly fat or love handles that can be pinched. It often creates quite a hard belly rather than squishy rolls on the outside. Yes it can affect skinny guys and yes it is a proven risk factor in men.

Familial lipid disorders are not rare and definitely raise risk. In people affected lipid results cannot be interpreted as per the general population risk profile. In the table linked http://nlaresourcecenter.lipidjournal.com/Content/PDFs/Tables/4.pdf a score of >8 is definite evidence of familial disease, 6-8 probable and 3-5 possible. There is also a modified UK version of these criteria for familial lipid disease. If you have doubts about your risks, do the calculation and if necessary take it to your doctor.


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## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

Ridnparadise said:


> Visceral fat means fat around the viscera - the internal organs. It can show as a beer belly, but it is not belly fat or love handles that can be pinched. It often creates quite a hard belly rather than squishy rolls on the outside. Yes it can affect skinny guys and yes it is a proven risk factor in men.


I should have been more clear in stating that the last check points - since we can't "see" visceral fat (deep belly fat) as easily and have to pony up to pay for a MRI or scan - is to make sure you have trimmed enough of what we can "see" via the remaining subcutaneous fat (belly fat) and retroperitoneal fat (back fat). When that is accomplished and combined with our blood work numbers, it usually can help confirm progress has been made in trimming the visceral fat.



__
https://flic.kr/p/GAk5XV
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

How to Know if You Have Visceral Fat - The Men's Magazine

Point being - if we know that we ourselves can contribute our part of the equation via exercise and cutting down to put ourselves in the lowest risk profile that we possibly can, why wouldn't we do that? :thumbsup:


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

I personally would never take statins. I consider it garbage to put in your body that may do more harm than good. My doctor prescribed me statins 10 years ago, but I never filled the prescription. I changed my diet somewhat and the next year my numbers got better. 

I do low-carb most of the time. I eat lots of fish, avocado, nuts, and veggies, but bacon and burgers too. Maybe every few months I'll have a big dessert or ice cream. Otherwise I consider an apple or an orange a sugar splurge. My numbers are good enough that they don't want to put me on statins anymore.

I need to dig up my numbers, but I always have high cholesterol but with a very good ratio. And low triglycerides.

I don't eat perfectly by a long shot, but just staying away from junk food and fast food will work wonders.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

JACKL said:


> I personally would never take statins. I consider it garbage to put in your body that may do more harm than good.


I don't know your situation but for most people taking statins, they do more good than harm. That's a scientifically proven fact, and they wouldn't be used, and never have ever been approved by the FDA unless the science backed that up.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

[/U][/B]


smilinsteve said:


> I don't know your situation but for most people taking statins, they do more good than harm. That's a scientifically proven fact, and they wouldn't be used, and never have ever been approved by the FDA unless the science backed that up.


Just in case I seem to be totally statin negative; I totally agree with smilinsteve. HMGCoA Reductase Inhibitors (statins) *are* more positive than negative, but that is because inflammatory vascular disease is endemic and statins do help you if you have it. Our individual anti-inflammatory efforts should not rely on medications like statins though. Whether we are outwardly healthy and young, ageing (old farts) or diabetic, everyone needs a lifestyle that limits inflammatory vascular disease.

Exercise, exercise, eating real food, exercise and emotional well being are the keys. However aspirin, turmeric, cinnamon, cumin and metformin, just like stains may offer some advantages if used appropriately and in conjunction with the big medicine - exercise. If you fail to eat properly (and my guess is that in 2016 <15% know what that means), then statins may be your friend.

Only you can choose whether to enjoy your future with statins, your future of progressive vascular disease without statins, your ability to post online about it, or your chance to beat it.


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## PineyRose (Sep 30, 2015)

Ridnparadise said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> Exercise, exercise, eating real food, exercise and emotional well being are the keys.


Agree, but if you have the inherited type of high cholesterol, this doesn't always work. I eat right (practically a vegetarian), exercise hard daily (I'm 5'5" and only weigh 116 pounds), and my cholesterol without the statin never went below a total of 210 or more. I eat cinnamon on my oatmeal every morning and turmeric on my cauliflower salad every day for lunch. I tried for over a year to lower it naturally without success. The first month after starting a statin my LDL dropped to the 60's. My dad had a major stoke in his early 50's due to high cholesterol. I don't want to follow him and do the same thing when I can lower it with a statin. I don't LIKE to take them but I would dislike a stroke more.


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