# Former Trek Executive's Open Letter to Bike Industry About E-Bikes



## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The...n-Letter-to-Bike-Industry-About-E-Bikes,10793

here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.

so i linked it over here to get some discussion going.

i assume its okay to discuss issues directly related to ebikes in the ebike forum?!

MODERATOR EDIT:
The OP put in a link to a forum, not to the blog itself, here is that link and the text copied and pasted here for review:
https://goodheartsolutions.com/2019/10/18/emtb-thoughts/



> This is going to be a little bit different article for me to write, as I have never written an open letter to the industry. I would guess that I am going to see a bunch of emotional comments at the bottom of this, in both directions, and that will be at least partially justified. But, nonetheless I feel that I have to put this down somewhere, so here goes.
> I think that the bicycle industry is half cocked on our position on electric mountain bikes. I say _our_ position, because I have been part of the industry for a long time, and I would say that I even need to own some portion of the industry's position. "They are much closer to bicycles, and should be regulated as such", is the most common bicycle industry position. Unfortunately, that is way too shallow and not thoroughly vetted for all of the potential impacts (present and future) when it comes to offroad use.
> 
> Let me start by saying, I am an advocate for ebikes. After a nearly 3 decade career at Trek bicycle and my consulting business, I have built/designed and promoted ebikes, I have advised companies and entities on ebikes, I have consulted with businesses to help them get ready for or promote ebikes, I have helped retailers understand and become part of the ebike community. I have owned ebikes, and will own them again in the future. I truly believe that ebikes are a good thing for the users, the communities that embrace them and of course the industry.
> ...


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Fuse6F said:


> https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The...n-Letter-to-Bike-Industry-About-E-Bikes,10793
> 
> here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.
> 
> ...


You would be wrong.

That dude is an idiot. Europeans are rightfully laughing at the weak minded Americans who need to overanalyze every little detail because deep down, we hate freedom.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

I prefer bacon over ham.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

figofspee said:


> That dude is an idiot.





RickBullottaPA said:


> He's a moron


Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.


Spinach is high in Vitamin K.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.


That's weak JB


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

figofspee said:


> That's weak JB


While most cheeses are made from cow's milk, some are not.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> When you purport to be an industry expert and you seem to be completely wrong about most factual aspects of your position, then yes - moron is an appropriate moniker.


He never claimed to be an expert, just said he worked in the industry. You have facts to prove he's completely wrong?

Evidently you think I'm a moron too even though you know almost nothing about me.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> He never claimed to be an expert, just said he worked in the industry. You have facts to prove he's completely wrong?
> 
> Evidently you think I'm a moron too even though you know almost nothing about me.


I don't know anything. I'm not even a real person.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Not at all - you seem well informed in your postings and positions in the threads I've interacted with you.


Yet I agree with many of the points Mr. Vadeboncoeur brought up. How is he a moron and I'm not?

btw I actually like a lot of things about ebikes and happily sell them but that doesn't mean I agree with the policies that guide them.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yet I agree with many of the points Mr. Vadeboncoeur brought up. How is he a moron and I'm not?
> 
> btw I actually like a lot of things about ebikes and happily sell them but that doesn't mean I agree with the policies that guide them.


OK, so let's take his points one by one.

"Do eMTB's do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes". He seems to imply that they do, and in fact, they flat out do not. Zero evidence to indicate that they do. These aren't dirt bikes. I have both. No comparison.

"What kind of trails are safe to mix pedal bikes and eMTB on the trails?" Simply put, a Cat 1 racer is as fast as a Class 1 eMTBer on virtually every trail, and faster on many of them. Should we ban Cat 1 racers? The motor isn't the limiting factor - handling is.

"Many trail groups have a history of asking land managers to allow the group to create separate trails from motorized user groups, from a safety and user experience POV". And the US constitution used to prevent women from voting and granted minorities virtually no civil rights. Things change. We evolve, learn, and improve.

"Many trail groups have received public or private grants along the way, to build the trails they are managing. Sometimes, those grants were specific for building trails for non motorized use". Same as the previous.

"Class 1 ebikes in NA are too powerful and accelerate too fast when on the top boost setting". You can't legislate against stupidity. Regular MTBs accelerate fast when going downhill. Visit most bike parks over the summer and you'll see Darwin's theories in action on a regular basis.

"There is no guarantee that the cycling industry will not upgrade the eMTB's available to class 2 or 3 or something beyond that". True. And there's no guarantee they won't add hydrogen motors, onboard laser weapons, or four wheels. It just wouldn't be prudent or good business.

"The industry presents that ebikes will bring more people into cycling." Arguments in this vein are largely elitist and "I was here first" BS. We have an obesity epidemic in this country. If this gets more people exercising, it is good public policy. We can build more trails - it's cheaper than building more hospitals.

Anyway, we may agree to disagree. His background does warrant applying extra scrutiny and criticism to his positions.

Maybe I'm just growing tired of the general ignorance and misguided anger towards eMTBs and lashing out a bit. So be it.

If the rain here in eastern PA ever stops, I'll go for a ride to clear my head.

Cheers.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

I've got a Pivot 429T and just picked up Turbo Levo Expert. There is no way the eBike damages the trail more than the Pivot. If you watch about 5 mins of YouTube you can view regular bikes slamming berms, skidding before/through turns tossing dirt all over. That's a bit harder on the eBike due to the weight, it's just not as nimble. My point is, the rider, not the bike, is the issue. 
I'm a broken old 63 year old man and the Levo makes me smile like crazy when I ride it. Still ride both but the eBike has added some well needed stoke for me.

I also do a fair amount of trail work and if the eBike damaged trails I would not have bought it. Around here, pets riders and hikers going off trail damage the trails a heck of a lot more than bikes for sure


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

I wanted to bring up what i felt was a subliminal message , if i can use that term.

this is a business executive
clearly stating that mtbers create economic benefits to his community
that more and better trails draws more people and creates more money
that his advocacy for creation of trails has no funding
that this is a barrier to his community utilizing the resource to create more revenue
that if we move/lobby to create an ohv registration system for mtb
it would establish the advocacy group as a true business entity
will he soon be creating a business that becomes state wide approved for creation of all trails 
would this business then move into other states
Is this a pitch to mtb companies to get them interested in also getting into the game of monetizing trail access for the products they create
does this become a monthly access fee just like a gym membership


We are this close to being charged for accessing all trails everywhere. 
There would of course be fines for not paying.



also, ebikers have to get off the high horse. 

Its a motorized vehicle!!! it has a motor!!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

figofspee said:


> Maybe I'm just growing tired of the general ignorance and misguided anger towards eMTBs and lashing out a bit. So be it.


Yes, and I grow tired of the complete dismissal of any concerns against them and the inevitable ensuing name calling to anyone who voices them.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

FORMER Trek Executive, I can see why he no longer works for Trek! His future vision is way off, but he has a right to his opinion. PB just did an interview with the owner of Santa Cruz bikes Rob, the last question asked was "Where do you see Santa Cruz ebikes in 5yrs? Answer 50% of our bikes will be ebikes. I heard Specialized will be there sooner, with more ebikes versus regular bikes. Every month, I see more and more acceptance of ebikes as well as ebikes on the trails. All it takes is one person in your group to get an ebike and it's all over for that group in most cases. Again, just my opinion!


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> FORMER Trek Executive, I can see why he no longer works for Trek! His future vision is way off, but he has a right to his opinion. PB just did an interview with the owner of Santa Cruz bikes Rob, the last question asked was "Where do you see Santa Cruz ebikes in 5yrs? Answer 50% of our bikes will be ebikes. I heard Specialized will be there sooner, with more ebikes versus regular bikes. Every month, I see more and more acceptance of ebikes as well as ebikes on the trails. All it takes is one person in your group to get an ebike and it's all over for that group in most cases. Again, just my opinion!


Hey when the chair lift goes out at the ski hill how many people do you see crawling up the hill. High end Analog bikes are done.

whats left to debate is what defines an ebike. 240w 540w 1000w???


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, and I grow tired of the complete dismissal of any concerns against them and the inevitable ensuing name calling to anyone who voices them.


Did you just dismiss my concerns?


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Fuse6F said:


> I see alot of middle finger responses.
> 
> Its a motorized vehicle!!! it has a motor!!!


It is a dirt bike too! It has suspension and rides on dirt! ;-)


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Hey when the chair lift goes out at the ski hill how many people do you see crawling up the hill. High end Analog bikes are done.
> 
> whats left to debate is what defines an ebike. 240w 540w 1000w???


Agreed with your message, except USA has already adopted what defines an ebike: 
*All 3 classes are at or below 750 watts (1hp)*. If an bike is above that then they are only legal on private land or where motorized vehicles are allowed and are obviously not in any of the 3 classes.
Class 1 pedal assist only, assisted top speed 20mph
Class 2 pedal/throttle, assisted top speed 20mph 
Class 3 top assisted speed 28


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> If the concerns were borne of fact, I would be more tolerant. 99.999% of the bashers have never ridden an eMTB, with someone on an eMTB, or done any real research on the topic...


Many of the points you brought up in post #11 aren't borne of fact, just conjecture. The former Trek exec isn't a basher imo and neither am I. I've ridden lot's of e-bikes.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Many of the points you brought up in post #11 aren't borne of fact, just conjecture. The former Trek exec isn't a basher imo and neither am I. I've ridden lot's of e-bikes.


OK. We disagree. Peace out.


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> OK, so let's take his points one by one.
> 
> "Do eMTB's do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes". He seems to imply that they do, and in fact, they flat out do not. Zero evidence to indicate that they do. These aren't dirt bikes. I have both. No comparison.
> 
> ...


+1 brother

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Is someone considering legal, not every state has adopted the class laws mind you, eBikes to be OHV's? That's funny.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Bigwheel said:


> Is someone considering legal, not every state has adopted the class laws mind you, eBikes to be OHV's? That's funny.


Which is precisely one of the things PFB is trying to accomplish, yet the author seems to criticize. Whatever.


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## 2wls4ever (May 11, 2006)

All this arguing tells me if we were all out on an amazing epic trail ride together and had to pick a direction to get back home, we would either not get back or finish the ride together.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

As someone who has had continuing discussions regarding ebikes and emtbs with my multiple local land managers over the last 5 years, ignoring the issues he raises only will reduce the chances you'll have the eventual emtb access you hope for. 

We're on an enthusiast bike forum, and with our blinders on, it's easy to only see emtbs as the ones we would buy, or already have out in the garage. And, the only riders we see will be like us, ride like us and want the same sort of experience.

The reality is that unlike the EU, US ebike laws are vague, unenforced and unenforceable. It makes as much sense as trying to regulate dirt bikes using displacement. 125s and 250s are OK, 450s are not. There's no one to check, there's no one to stop you. The reality that if you allow one type of ebike, you're effectively allowing anything with an electric motor and pedals is starting to sink in around here. 

We're already seeing as many douchebags on high powered ebikes as we do as EUish spec ones, and they're the ones that are going to spoil it. There is a segment of the bike/moto population that are just figuring out the loopholes and once the equipment is more readily available, will be happy to exploit them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

^another basher


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.





figofspee said:


> That's weak JB


^see what I mean


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

2wls4ever said:


> All this arguing tells me if we were all out on an amazing epic trail ride together and had to pick a direction to get back home, we would either not get back or finish the ride together.


Nah. Most of know how to separate the two. I'd carry J.B. Weld out on my back if he needed it and I'd ride with him and have beers with him in a heartbeat. We just disagree on what is obviously a very polarizing issue. Or maybe the shitty political climate we're in has everyone taking extreme positions on everything. But "in the real world" (read: not on the internet), the beauty of the MTB tribe is that love of the ride almost always brings us together.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Nah. Most of know how to separate the two. I'd carry J.B. Weld out on my back if he needed it and I'd ride with him and have beers with him in a heartbeat. We just disagree on what is obviously a very polarizing issue.


Likewise. I've absolutely nothing against e-bikes or the people who ride them. I have friends who ride them. Who knows, maybe someday I'll own one. My disagreement is, and always has been with the policies that guide them, sort of like the former Trek rep.

To many here that makes me a hater, a basher, and a fking idiot. So be it.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Harryman said:


> As someone who has had continuing discussions regarding ebikes and emtbs with my multiple local land managers over the last 5 years, ignoring the issues he raises only will reduce the chances you'll have the eventual emtb access you hope for.


Bad arguments don't need to be continually addressed, people should simply stop making them.

If you were to accept his arguments, there should be quotas for trail usage by ALL users, riders above a certain weight shouldn't be allowed on the trail, nor should riders capable of a certain sustainable power level. Can you hold 450w for a minute? Go find somewhere else to ride...same to you, fatty.

Pretty dumb, isn't it...but that's what he's implying and you imply it as well by saying his bad faith argument is anything other than bad faith.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richde said:


> If you were to accept his arguments, there should be quotas for trail usage by ALL users, riders above a certain weight shouldn't be allowed on the trail, nor should riders capable of a certain sustainable power level. Can you hold 450w for a minute? Go find somewhere else to ride...same to you, fatty.


^Weak, totally stupid argument. What are you, some kind of idiot?

 jk  but I do respectfully disagree


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process. 
Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

jmcdev1 said:


> Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process.
> Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
> And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
> The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
> So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.


Hey man, whatever you need to do, to justify your decision, and make yourself feel better. Even if it's name calling.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^Weak, totally stupid argument. What are you, some kind of idiot?
> 
> jk  but I do respectfully disagree


People can "respectfully disagree" about the shape of the Earth...but that doesn't mean they get immunity to being called out for their silliness.

....and why are people still allowed to troll in this forum? So much for that whole "advocating for E-bikes" thing, huh...because if that was the case a bunch of you goofs would be getting points.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, calling names is the new norm and ridiculing people to shut them up is the most common technique for winning an argument.

Welcome to the new world order.

I just ride my bike, it's much more satisfying than being part of this nonsense.

My goal is to gradually post less and less, timing my exit with the end of this social media form.

Still gotta a couple years till it runs down, but it's certainly going there in a hurry.



J.B. Weld said:


> Is everyone you guys disagree with morons and idiots? Seems like cordial discussions and productive debates are a lost art.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

the lake i live at is catch and release only on the walleye. Yet i see people poaching them all the time. Fisheries keeps letting us know that stocks are still dwindling. 

We also have hikers who take their dogs down our trails (clearly marked leash only) with the phone in one hand and a coffee in the other. They dont care where their dog craps. But i sure run over it and get it shot all over my bike and then i have to put that same bike in the car for the ride home! good luck trying to find a way to talk to these people about it! 

Point is that people are going to do what they want when they want no matter what their told or asked to do. They will simply justify their opinion/actions in their own minds.

Can this forum discuss more than just how great my new ebike is. If so, can it have that discussion in a grown up and mature way. 

Fwiw: The purpose of the original post was information sharing. Not trolling and not hating. Leave it to you to decide what group is doing the most negative talking here.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jmcdev1 said:


> The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
> So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.


Depends how you look at things

Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.

if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

jmcdev1 said:


> Got news for every E bike hater on every forum: All of you, absolutely everyone of you will be riding an E bike in the future when you can't manage an analog bike anymore for whatever reason. Why? Because we are all passionate about riding forever! The haters will all have to eat their words, but of course they will be too proud to do that. They'll just say "Oh gee whiz I was dead wrong about that one, wasn't I, hee hee?" We are just early days in this whole process.
> Avid, very fit bike racer for 50 years, road racing initially, then mtb last 30 yrs, destroyed both hips from countless falls and now I have two artificial hips. My surgeon rides with us & said "Those 4 mm plastic liners will only last 10 years the way you ride." I've always been an aggressive climber in the front of the pack, even in older years. So now I have an E bike and soft pedal uphill, and I am astounded at how much fun it is. This is the universal reaction of people who get on an E bike.
> And that is precisely why E bikes will be allowed on trails in the future and more trails will find a way to be built to accommodate them. There is absolutely no way these bikes will be denied access with the wave of popularity that is coming. It is going to catch on in spite of the haters. The arguments will continue for now, but it's futile. Everybody will feel as I do: "Geez, I can actually do this till the day I die, barring unforeseen tragedy." That is precisely why it is unstoppable.
> The arguments about more trail damage are absolutely laughable. I am the head trail builder in my region and I am out on the trails working twice a week for hours following my rides, so I am passionate about the condition of my trails. I've been riding the E bike for 4 years now. The fat tires were not nimble enough for the descents so I ride 61mm/2.4" tires on 30mm ID rims, and the traction is so great that the bike just does not slip and slide. I do so much less damage to my trails than I used to on my custom build stumpjumper that weighed 25 1/2 pounds with an aftermarket 160 mm fork, dropper post and aggressive 2.35 tires. The idiots making this argument have not ridden an E bike very much, are too stupid to be able to figure this out, too prejudiced, or all of the above. It's just laughable. And just because I can go farther I have not seen any more damage to my trails. Again, bogus argument.
> So go ahead and rant and rave you idiots. Haters innately know this, and that's why they're so upset. They know they can't stop it. Helloooo, somewhat two faced, no? You will be riding one some day. Entertaining though so it's fun to follow the rants.


I don't see myself ever riding one but I won't rule it out. But if I do ever ride one, I won't delude myself that it belongs on non-motorized trails. I won't advocate for it or poach trails where they aren't allowed. That's where I draw the line as a non-e-bike rider now and as a potential e-bike rider in the future. If it has a motor, keep it off non-motorized trails. If you think that makes me a hater, that's your prerogative.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richde said:


> People can "respectfully disagree" about the shape of the Earth...but that doesn't mean they get immunity to being called out for their silliness.


So your opinion is the equivalent of hard science?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Depends how you look at things
> 
> Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.
> 
> if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.


See what you are taking about is normal wear and tear from using the trails. This unfortunately is going occur with more regularity as population grows. You are simply going to have more trail users than the year before. This type of wear and tear is going to occur no matter what, and no matter how big that rider/bike or erider/ebike combo is you are still doing minimal amount of wear and tear.

Now you open up the trails to a real dirt bike, now we are talking trail damage. Most dirt bikes are 200lbs or more, and almost all put out 20 times or more the horse power a class 1 ebike can produce (1hp). These dirt bikes can doing real burnouts at almost anytime with a simple twist of the throttle. You ever see a super cross track before dirt bike get on it? The only way to do a burnout on an ebike or bike is to pedal hard and unweight the rear tire.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

Fuse6F said:


> Depends how you look at things
> 
> Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.
> 
> if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.


I don't own an E-bike,have no plans of getting one, and that seems like a huge stretch to me.

I highly doubt that guys that used to do 10 miles on their analog bikes are now regularly doing 30 miles on E-bikes. Sure, they are a little quicker on the climbs but are they 3 times as fast? Maybe in Turbo mode but your battery isn't going to last for 30 miles at that rate?

Certainly no expert.... just observations from the outside looking in.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Really fit people cause more trail damage than out of shape people, because they ride more. Not that I have anything against really fit people! Totally don't, it's just my opinion. But they clearly do more trail damage and we as a group need to consider regulating them more. Where will the madness end?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

SteveF said:


> I don't see myself ever riding one but I won't rule it out. But if I do ever ride one, I won't delude myself that it belongs on non-motorized trails. I won't advocate for it or poach trails where they aren't allowed. That's where I draw the line as a non-e-bike rider now and as a potential e-bike rider in the future. If it has a motor, keep it off non-motorized trails. If you think that makes me a hater, that's your prerogative.


I've heard this stance a few times from some of my friends who are now on ebikes. For whatever the reason is, they change their tune when all of sudden life throws them an unexpected challenge such as: back surgery, hip or knee replacement, heart disease, overweight, asthma, old age, car accident or any kind of accident, etc...

Hopefully you will not encounter anything that would be considered debilitating injury and affect your livelihood. I'm betting you'll have different tune to ebike and access.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Fuse6F said:


> Depends how you look at things
> 
> if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.


...except it's not even close to that level of differential. On a typical ride, I average about 20-25% faster on my eMTB than on my regular MTB. At balls out race pace, including heart rate pegged, 70% faster on the eMTB, but only for an hour before the battery is toast, so basically back to the 20-25% number.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> when all of sudden life throws them an unexpected challenge such as: back surgery, hip or knee replacement, heart disease, overweight, asthma, old age, car accident or any kind of accident, etc...
> .


I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.

Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Train Wreck said:


> I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.
> 
> Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience


Your day will come, champ. I hope it is a while, but when it does, you'll want to still ride, too...


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Your day will come, champ. I hope it is a while, but when it does, you'll want to still ride, too...


My day is today! I want 750w with 200mm front and rear under 35lbs...why wait until I'm old/crippled to enjoy it.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Train Wreck said:


> My day is today! I want 750w with 200mm front and rear under 35lbs...why wait until I'm old/crippled to enjoy it.


LOL. I can get you 35000 watts with 300 front and 335 rear, for just under 220 lbs. And for a lot less than a Levo SL. Braaaap!


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Depends how you look at things
> 
> Ever been on a trail, mid summer, that has seen a ton of use. Its probably not in pristine condition. trail use causes trail damage, All bikes do it. But if you make six laps instead of 1 or 2. Then you did more damage. Not by bike classification, but by usage. Theres nothing wrong with the fact that you got to use your bike more than an analog guy did. Your free to do so. Just stop saying i rode my bike for 50miles today but had no more impact than if i rode for 20.
> 
> if you put in 6 laps instead of 2 laps, did it take you three times longer? If not then you were doing higher speeds than you would have on an analog bike. That affects all trail users and trail safety. If that was on a fire road up to the top or straight up single track on a two way trail, it doesnt matter. The result was the same. Higher overall speed.


You're calling for usage limits which would APPLY TO EVERYONE.

Sounds silly when you're not just singling out one portion of one type of trail user, doesn't it?

Sorry, trail's full....try again tomorrow.

Noooooo, you're only supposed to hurt other people!



J.B. Weld said:


> I guess it works for people who don't understand what science is.


Says the guy arguing against it.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Train Wreck said:


> I'd be more concerned with my overall health than trying to go for a recreational off road bike ride on a machine with a motor.
> 
> Good stuff, only on MTBr will you find a bunch of yahoo's who know more than an industry exec with 30 years experience


Kind of like when people who have clearly never ridden a class 1 ebike, believes they know everything about ebikes. Only on the internet you find yahoo's like this:thumbsup:


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> Kind of like when people who have clearly never ridden a class 1 ebike, believes they know everything about ebikes. Only on the internet you find yahoo's like this:thumbsup:


Right, only on the internet :thumbsup:

I never claimed to be an expert on ebikes. Maybe I don't have a ton of riding experience on them either, but when someone with experience in the industry raises some concerns, I'll listen. It's probably in your best interest to do so as well.

Its funny to see who trolls are in this thread.

E-bike moderator? Keep up the good work


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Train Wreck said:


> Right, only on the internet :thumbsup:
> 
> I never claimed to be an expert on ebikes. Maybe I don't have a ton of riding experience on them either, but when someone with experience in the industry raises some concerns, I'll listen. It's probably in your best interest to do so as well.
> 
> ...


Well, many of the "expert's" points were inaccurate, so I think debate and discussion are warranted and valid from people who actually do ride eMTBs and have "boots on the ground" experience that may differ from the original article's author.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

The bottom line is that Class 1 eMTBs are not going to change any non-E rider or hiker's experience in any way other than possibly being butthurt over being passed on a climb. Here in CO we have many trails shared between eMTB and non-eMTB, and after awhile, no one even notices. A jerk is a jerk, whether they have a little electric pedal assist or not, and the jerk factor is what really matters. In fact, I have found all of the eMTB riders I have encountered to be more courteous than many of the "analog" MTB riders. They tend to be older and less interested in what other people think, and more interested in just having a good ride. 

I agree with some of the others on this thread, unless you have actually ridden a real (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, Yamaha, etc.) pedal assist eMTB on a real trail, you really don't know what you are talking about. 

The Trek guy makes some good points (we need a consistent power rating) and some stupid ones (quit showing MTBs "shredding"). The fact that he worked for Trek for 30 years? Big f*&^ing deal. I've been riding bicycles, in dirt, for over 50 years. Yes, over 50, starting with my first Stingray. I worked in bikes shops in the 70's and 80's. I've owned over 100 bikes of all kinds. A Class 1 eMTB is not the spawn of the devil, it isn't a trail sharing or erosion issue, it isn't going to cause riders to go apeshit and "shred". It is just a bike that helps a rider go up hill a little faster, and helps a good technical rider clean uphill sections they would normally walk. That's it. If I wanted to point a finger at something that *would* make a difference, it would be mandatory trail education and enforcement for *all* riders, so that uphill riders get the right of way, riders dismount for horses, riders control their speed on non-dedicated descents, riders respect private property, greet hikers and make eye contact before passing, don't skid, etc. But no, we are going have endless pissing contests about whether a bike has a motor or not. In a few years, you won't be able to even tell. 

Riddle me this: if someone removes the battery from their eMTB, is it legal to ride where eMTBs are not allowed? It still has a f*&^ing motor doesn't it? How about the new Specialized Levo SL, they can be run with only an external battery that can be removed in five seconds and stashed in a pack, and results in a 35lb "analog" bike?? If someone uses assist to get to a trailhead, and then removes the battery and puts it in their pack, they have a 35lb bike, but oh ****, its an ebike, the trails are going to erode! Wait, my old Giant Faith weighs 38lb. Now what?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

The best point he made was about how other user groups view all of this. Everyone here blowing that off is being selfish. Trail access is everything. There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access. Kingdom trails got shut down because of one jagoff mountain biker, I can tell from browsing this forum there's more than one bad apple that's going to f it up for all of us. Well before the industry decided to slap motors onto bikes we've been on thin ice in many areas. E bikes are blowing up. Now even Santa Cruz makes a moped. I love UCSC trails. 90% of those trails are illegal, but have been well known forever. Just watch, UCSC will be shut down in the coming years and rightly so. RIders have been showing little regard for the sensitive redwood environment, motors will be the straw that breaks the camel's back regardless of whether impact is identical to mountain bikes. Motors will be the breaking point for many other areas too.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> The best point he made was about how other user groups view all of this. Everyone here blowing that off is being selfish. Trail access is everything. There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access. Kingdom trails got shut down because of one jagoff mountain biker, I can tell from browsing this forum there's more than one bad apple that's going to f it up for all of us. Well before the industry decided to slap motors onto bikes we've been on thin ice in many areas. E bikes are blowing up. Now even Santa Cruz makes a moped. I love UCSC trails. 90% of those trails are illegal, but have been well known forever. Just watch, UCSC will be shut down in the coming years and rightly so. RIders have been showing little regard for the sensitive redwood environment, motors will be the straw that breaks the camel's back regardless of whether impact is identical to mountain bikes. Motors will be the breaking point for many other areas too.


Santa Cruz makes a moped? I must have missed that. I did see that they make a Class 1 eMTB now.

You've been riding illegal trails for years, now you want to ***** about ebikes? As you said, "There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access." You don't think MTB'ers riding illegal trails affect future access?

I got nothin'.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

honkinunit said:


> Santa Cruz makes a moped? I must have missed that. I did see that they make a Class 1 eMTB now.
> 
> You've been riding illegal trails for years, now you want to ***** about ebikes? As you said, "There seems to be little to no concern over how all this could play out in regards to access." You don't think MTB'ers riding illegal trails affect future access?
> 
> I got nothin'.


Much of the riding in Santa Cruz is illegal. If you don't ride illegal trails in SC, you don't ride much. My prediction is Ebikes will be the end of some trail systems in Santa Cruz that are well known, well used, but have never been sanctioned. Adding mopeds to the fray is going to exacerbate an already tenuous relationship between bikes and land managers. It's sad that Santa Cruz is willing to put profits in front of trail access in their own town. I've always wondered how long the iffy status of areas like UCSC would last even though it's been around for 20+ years. Mopeds are going to be the last straw. We are our own worst enemies.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> See what you are taking about is normal wear and tear from using the trails. This unfortunately is going occur with more regularity as population grows. You are simply going to have more trail users than the year before. This type of wear and tear is going to occur no matter what, and no matter how big that rider/bike or erider/ebike combo is you are still doing minimal amount of wear and tear.
> 
> Now you open up the trails to a real dirt bike, now we are talking trail damage. Most dirt bikes are 200lbs or more, and almost all put out 20 times or more the horse power a class 1 ebike can produce (1hp). These dirt bikes can doing real burnouts at almost anytime with a simple twist of the throttle. You ever see a super cross track before dirt bike get on it? The only way to do a burnout on an ebike or bike is to pedal hard and unweight the rear tire.


I have enough experience to know that putting more power down and covering more distance wears my bike out faster. it also affects the trail too!

I think we are both saying the same thing. Since you pointed out that an even more powerful motocross bike does even more damage.

We should move on.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Well, many of the "expert's" points were inaccurate, so I think debate and discussion are warranted and valid from people who actually do ride eMTBs and have "boots on the ground" experience that may differ from the original article's author.


Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> Riddle me this: if someone removes the battery from their eMTB, is it legal to ride where eMTBs are not allowed? It still has a f*&^ing motor doesn't it? How about the new Specialized Levo SL, they can be run with only an external battery that can be removed in five seconds and stashed in a pack, and results in a 35lb "analog" bike?? If someone uses assist to get to a trailhead, and then removes the battery and puts it in their pack, they have a 35lb bike, but oh ****, its an ebike, the trails are going to erode! Wait, my old Giant Faith weighs 38lb. Now what?


Thats a tough one.

If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.

The impacts to trails include many things. Its a pretty dynamic situation. Riding in the rain vs dry. But the only impact i feel we can separate from regular bikes to ebikes is the amount of average power being put down.

levo sl has a internal battery pack built into the frame. Motor has to come out to be removed. External packs are range extenders only!

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/specialized-levo-sl-2020-emtb-review/

the expert wasnt hammering on ebike riders as a personal attack. Only pointing out the differences and wanting to start discussion and education about the impacts and how the differences are perceived.

ebikes are diff. They are motorized. They have impacts that arent fully understood, what direction are they headed, does that change how they should be looked at. More data is needed and industry needs to get together on this.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.


Go ahead and bring up one of those points then and stop acting as if all opinions are equally based in reality.

At least one person pointed out, point by point, how the ex-Trek guy was wrong. Let's see you do the same.

"More data is needed" = "I don't like the data that's readily available"


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> I have enough experience to know that putting more power down and covering more distance wears my bike out faster. it also affects the trail too!


Are we back to usage quotas that impact everyone?



Fuse6F said:


> We should move on.


Maybe you should move on instead of suggesting we move on while continuing to argue silly points.

Keep in mind that any argument against ebikes is also an argument against ALL bikes...don't do the hikers' and equestrians' jobs for them.

We're all stronger together.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Thats a tough one.
> 
> If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.
> 
> ...


The Levo SL can run on external battery only, in fact, that is *how* Specialized expects riders to ride the bike if they have to fly with it. The internal battery is too big to fly on a plane, the external batteries are not. If you are going to fly, you are supposed to remove the internal battery and leave it at home, and bring as many external batteries as you need. You can bring several externals on a plane, as long as they are all smaller than the cut off.

Please explain how a 150lb rider on a 45lb ebike causes more erosion than a 200lb rider on a 30lb bike. The erosion fears are simply bullshit red herrings conjured up by ebike opponents. I could take my 20lb hardtail and by riding like an idiot, cause more trail damage than a 250lb guy on a 50lb ebike riding normally. It is all about the rider.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

richde said:


> Are we back to usage quotas that impact everyone?
> 
> Maybe you should move on instead of suggesting we move on while continuing to argue silly points.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting the idea about use quotas from??? Please explain.

Thats what i said.... Weeeee as a group should move on from this.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Where are you getting the idea about use quotas from??? Please explain.
> 
> Thats what i said.... Weeeee as a group should move on from this.


If you're concerned about how much a trail is used, the solution is a limit of how many people can use the trail. Why is that confusing?

Yeah, you said "we as a group should move on" right before NOT moving on.

Typically, that's the last thing you say in a conversation.



mlx john said:


> Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.


Yet another thing these people just can't seem to figure out.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> The Levo SL can run on external battery only, in fact, that is *how* Specialized expects riders to ride the bike if they have to fly with it. The internal battery is too big to fly on a plane, the external batteries are not. If you are going to fly, you are supposed to remove the internal battery and leave it at home, and bring as many external batteries as you need. You can bring several externals on a plane, as long as they are all smaller than the cut off.
> 
> Please explain how a 150lb rider on a 45lb ebike causes more erosion than a 200lb rider on a 30lb bike. The erosion fears are simply bullshit red herrings conjured up by ebike opponents. I could take my 20lb hardtail and by riding like an idiot, cause more trail damage than a 250lb guy on a 50lb ebike riding normally. It is all about the rider.


I thought the post said the bike only had external batteries. My bad. Glad you pointed that out.

this is smart marketing by specialized. However, You will have to remove the motor to get out the fixed internal battery for air travel and then get airline permission to travel with up to a maximum of two of the range extender batteries. As they are 160wh and over the 100wh limit. That assumes the combined batteries have less than 8g of lithium.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrie...&ty=HTML&h=L&r=SECTION&n=49y2.1.1.3.12.1.25.5

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/more_info/?hazmat=7

As for my second point. The ebike lets you get more work done than analog. That work is put out into the trail, usually making quick work of the climbs. So all things being equal. As in an idiot blasting the berms. Means that same idiot then powers up the trail to do it all over again more times in a day. If you want proof then more data should be collected to prove it. But seems simple enough as a concept!


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> As for my second point. The ebike lets you get more work done than analog. That work is put out into the trail, usually making quick work of the climbs. So all things being equal. As in an idiot blasting the berms. Means that same idiot then powers up the trail to do it all over again more times in a day. If you want proof then more data should be collected to prove it. But seems simple enough as a concept!


It has been studied and it's not much different from a non-assisted bike....you just don't seem to like the results. Rant and rave all you want, but the Earth is still round.

News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike. It doesn't mean they're doing burnouts every time they do it.

Still not moving on, I see.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

richde said:


> It has been studied and it's not much different from a non-assisted bike....you just don't seem to like the results. Rant and rave all you want, but the Earth is still round.
> 
> News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike. It doesn't mean they're doing burnouts every time they do it.
> 
> Still not moving on, I see.


What did you mean by:
Not much different... less or more.... link the study please.

What do you mean by beat the max output of an ebike? Here is an add link below. Are you saying you can pass this ebike on a climb?

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo

The Turbo Levo's 565-watt Specialized 2.1 motor quadruples your effort with a smooth and natural feel at the pedals, without adding any awkward surges in power. You can get to the top of your favorite descent with just a quarter of the effort, or four-times as fast. You're in control. It's you, only faster.


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## jmcdev1 (Jan 1, 2011)

The discussion totally misses my main point. The people managing trails who are making decisions will enjoy riding E bikes so much there's no way they will kick them off trails. They will start developing new trails to accommodate them. Whoever imagined BLM would open up their lands nationwide to E bikes as soon as they did??? That truly stunned! Was it because decision-making officials at the top had experience with E bikes, understood what they do/more significantly do not do to trails, how much fun it is, & how it could improve people's health, desperately needed in this country that is sinking economically from skyrocketing healthcare costs. Or the healthcare problem alone could be the reason, it is that scary bad. These costs are skyrocketing because people won't take personal responsibility for their own fitness and health but would rather sit and watch their beloved big screen TV, drink beer/soda, and stuff their faces. 
Most of you in this forum have no idea how anxious government officials are to cut their healthcare costs because of their massive number of employees, costs increasing so rapidly that bankruptcies are inevitable very soon if nothing changes. They finally understand if they don't provide the facilities for people to exercise, they will never begin. This is the overriding point. "What, you want me to tell people they can't ride a bike in the woods because it has a little motor that takes the suffering away when they go uphill? You set your ass down here and look at those projections on healthcare costs and then see if you want to try to sell me that again, idiot."
48 years of trying to motivate my patients to embrace a healthy lifestyle rather than just asking for yet another goddamn pill to treat their most recently diagnosed condition, to just exercise 30 min, 3 days/wk, & eat a healthier diet, has taught me one thing about exercise. For it to have any chance of being embraced by the average obese, lazy ass American it has to have 2 things: be really fun & be really, really, unbelievably, f...ing easy. Well.... that's an E bike. 
I am also on the board of a nonprofit in our area whose mission is making streets safer for pedestrians/cyclists and maintaining trail networks in the forest reserve for recreation (I'm the head trail builder as mentioned earlier). We were absolutely ignored and even laughed at by government officials all through the 80s, 90s, and early 2000's. Suddenly after 2010 they woke up and realized their rapidly spiraling healthcare costs were going to bankrupt them if they didn't try something new to get their employees exercising, and now they are our best supporters. Unbelievable reversal. They can't help us enough. They give us hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to manage programs to get people on bicycles, such as Bike Share, are completely embracing the Vision Zero initiative for safer streets in town, have designated us as their official trail builder/trail maintenance people, brought our trail system under the State recreational trail program with beautiful signage promised in the near future, and fully support every single idea or program we present to them. 
You need to understand, everyone on this forum, E bikes will not be legislated against but will be embraced with open arms, as evidenced by the BLM decision. These officials would be ecstatic to see everyone out riding an E bike in the forest. We all need to understand that this whole thing is bigger than our little niggling worries about whether we'll get kicked off trails because of E bikes. Government officials at the top don't lay in bed unable to sleep worrying about trail access (? "Trail access? WTF is that?"), rather they are wondering how the hell they are going to cover the billions of dollars their healthcare costs just went up this year alone. Yes it will be a slow process since they don't have the budget presently to manage this but that will change in the future. User fees undoubtedly, unfortunately.
There is no other form of exercise that equals the enjoyment and ease of the E bike. And it is only even early days with this technology. They will rapidly become much lighter/more reliable (eg the new Specialized Levo SL) to the point where they will be embraced widely.....but only if there are trails available & safe streets to commute on. States with great trail networks/bike friendly streets will demonstrate to the others how rapidly it becomes embraced w/ subsequent decreases in healthcare costs. 
This is so much bigger than sierra club vs mtn bike, analog vs E bike fighting over trail access. In fact, watch the hikers embrace E bikes when they finally just try one. 
Just keep an open mind and see what happens.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> What did you mean by:
> Not much different... less or more.... link the study please.
> 
> What do you mean by beat the max output of an ebike? Here is an add link below. Are you saying you can pass this ebike on a climb?
> ...


Here you go https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

No, I didn't say that, I said that the output of an ebike is within the capabilities of many people...just not for very long. But the point that you don't get because you don't seem to understand much about it is that it didn't bother anyone until they started getting passed on climbs by more than just fit riders.

You know how on descents that if you go too fast you crash? It's kinda the same regardless if you have electric assist or not. Do you ride like an assclown and assume everyone else does or just pulling arguments out of your ass? It's one of the two.

Good job moving on, btw. I figured you were acting in bad faith, thanks for reaffirming my lack of faith in humanity.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Hey little man, Fuse6f...

I don't care about your reputation comments, so you can either say something stupid in public for everyone to laugh at or keep it to yourself.

Go ahead and tell your parents if you want, because I don't care.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

richde said:


> Here you go https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf
> 
> No, I didn't say that, I said that the output of an ebike is within the capabilities of many people...just not for very long. But the point that you don't get because you don't seem to understand much about it is that it didn't bother anyone until they started getting passed on climbs by more than just fit riders.
> 
> ...


What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?

i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.

I also want to add that all along ive been stating that there are more laps made on average by an ebiker. This doesnt even factor in laps made by physically limited users who wouldnt have made laps at all. Im happy they are out there by the way.

the differences, in distances ridden by the two groups, if factored into the test will increase the wear rates further.

Would they become statistically relevant. Have to do the study. If being charged for ohv registration (which is coming) they could be enough to justify different rates for access.

as a favour to everyone here, myself included, could you manage your posts in the same manner that you yourself would like to be responded to.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Thats a tough one.
> 
> If you saw a guy pushing his motocross bike 5 miles into a non motorized trail, would you fine him.
> 
> ...


There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
Nobody bitches about it.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Fuse6F said:


> Fwiw: The purpose of the original post was information sharing. Not trolling and not hating. Leave it to you to decide what group is doing the most negative talking here.


Nailed it, the ones calling others "haters" are the ones slinging the most mud and displaying the most intolerance.

I realize it's just a few people emboldened by internet anonymity though and not representative of the real world. As mentioned I have friends who ride electric bikes who are kind and reasonable.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?
> 
> i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.
> 
> ...


I thought you were moving on from this weak argument! Just riding on the trails does minimal amount of damage to a well built trail system.

Fuse6f, it would be great if you could manage yourself with a little more restraint. You come into the ebike forum about once a month and start trolling. I get it, you are against ebikes, move on or find another sub forum to moan in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Fuse6F said:


> What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?
> 
> i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.
> 
> ...


You're suggesting, indirectly, that strong riders should be banned from the trails, because they can go further and faster. Also, well-designed and properly maintained trails are generally unaffected by usage volume, unless idiots are using them in poor conditions.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mlx john said:


> Calling class 1 e-bikes "mopeds" is disingenuous and a non-starter for reasonable conversation.


Sorry I hurt your feelings. You're a big boy riding a big boy bike!


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

slimat99 said:


> Sorry I hurt your feelings. You're a big boy riding a big boy bike!


Show me on the doll where the eBike hurt you...


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Show me on the doll where the eBike hurt you...


haha love it.

My friend I've been bent over so many times by the bike industry I have Stockholm Syndrome. Seriously though, trail access in Santa Cruz is no joke and Emopeds are going to f it all up. So yeah, Ebikes are hurting me. Hurting me and many other mountain bikers in areas where trail access is tenuous.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Regular bikes have unlimited range, where an off the shelf ebike's range is fairly limited. Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this very obvious downside to their choice of bikes. I can ride my non-ebike over a hundred miles on trails but I can only get a fraction of that on a battery charge. The environmental damage caused by non-ebikes is that of three or four ebikers over the course of a day. It is widely accepted that non-ebikes are faster on the downhill, which is the most dangerous place for speed. To recap, non-ebikes have unlimited range, faster downhill speeds, and unlimited speed potential! For the record, I don't think all non-ebikes should be banned from every trail, but we should be open to land managers who want to contain the obvious hazard to the environment and other trail users.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

figofspee said:


> Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this
> 
> 
> > Look at the way non-ebikers are responded to in this "discussion"
> ...


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Train Wreck said:


> figofspee said:
> 
> 
> > Why are non-ebike riders avoiding discussing this
> ...


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

figofspee said:


> That is a weak excuse for ignoring your choice to persecute other trail users and destroy the environment.


I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Good points for everyone.

Whats really caught my attention about this post is that the presentation was given to people for bikes. (Correct me if im wrong)

https://peopleforbikes.org/legislation-lobbying/

This is a lobby group setup by industry to push for laws and social changes to further the bike industry. Make more money. The side benefit may be that We enjoy better bikes and access to public lands.

But the negative side of ebikes is they are motorized. And that little technicality is forcing everyone to take a look at mtb and whats come up is funding for trails that basically create demand for bike sales. So the answer to that riddle is ohv registration (pay to play). Were they always pushing for that. I dont know, but culturally its well established for motorized vehicle registration. Ebike has just made a stronger connection to that

Without posting on here the more important issue of ohv registration wouldnt have come up. So its time to choose. Push back against me or push back against people who want you to pay to play. Once that fee and enforcement structure is put in place, it aint going away. Just the fee increased.

Could there be benefits. Perhaps. But some of the money i suspect will go into salaries and enforcement costs. Legal issues in court etc.

Up here in canada we have a company that setup bouncy castles to play in the water on. So basically a water park. But they did it not by buying land but leasing beach rights and roping the areas off for their exclusive monetization. This business then jumped to most major lakes overnight. Could this model happen to bike trails. It could. Favorite riding areas would have a couple high school kids swiping your credit card at the trail head.

Am i an ebike hater. If that means i can see issues around the deveolpment and responsible use of them. Then i guess so. But i can see that about regular bikes, cars, stupid bright led headlights, etc. But i also emailed a good friend last night and told him that the new levo sl was the best ebike ive ever seen and i highly recommend it as i encourage him to get into the sport. So check your own oil please!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Train Wreck said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.


Playing dumb won't work here


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Deleted


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Lower Class 1 speed in US?*



rod9301 said:


> There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
> Nobody bitches about it.


It would be useful to learn what the Euros know about Class 1 EMTBs - especially the rationale for their lower Class 1 speed of 15MPH vs 20MPH in USA.

The Trek executive also advocates 15 MPH I think for safety reasons. Another reason may be to extend the riding range with one battery, making the product more practical and affordable is my thought.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> haha love it.
> 
> My friend I've been bent over so many times by the bike industry I have Stockholm Syndrome. Seriously though, trail access in Santa Cruz is no joke and Emopeds are going to f it all up. So yeah, Ebikes are hurting me. Hurting me and many other mountain bikers in areas where trail access is tenuous.


Someone earlier gave you a good answer, but you ignored it. Let's try it again. You claim a lot of the trails in Santa Cruz are illegal, yet you and your crew and I'm sure other bikers still ride these trails regardless for years. Yet if they get closed down now, it's because of ebikes?

That's a tough one, because of one glaring fact! The trails in question are illegal. I guess my best advise I can give you is get them rich hippies out of positions of power!

Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dogsonboards (Nov 17, 2015)

rod9301 said:


> There's a ton of data in Europe, where most good riders are on e mtn bikes now.
> Nobody bitches about it.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.

This does make a difference.

Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Fuse6F said:


> I think you have something there.
> 
> So you are saying that ebikes can be ridden for a limited range, say 30 to 50 miles, and that afterwards they change into heavy non ebikes (dead batteries). from that point on they can continue to be ridden for unlimited distances doing Further damage as their range is limitless.
> 
> we are both just joking right?


That is an absurd argument, as there isn't any reason to ride an eBike if you plan on riding it extensively past the battery charge.

What eBike is getting 50 miles of serious trail riding on a single charge?

I thought you were being serious when you posted the opinion of the Trek Executive, but it sounds like you were joking. That is some serious sarcasm that you might want to clarify next time.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

dogsonboards said:


> There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.
> 
> This does make a difference.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk


Bafang is currently selling 3 million units in Europe and they project sales in the 15 to 20 million range here in the near future. Bafang motors can be derestricted in under a minute (you can derestrict the bafang accidently if you have an eggrider). I don't have a problem with a motor that cuts out on singletrack at 10mph but that would be silly for roads. Thankfully, the states have a more reasonable take on eBikes


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## Emax (Dec 4, 2005)

Given the various access limitations imposed on motorized vehicles, it's no wonder that the industry markets their electric mopeds as e-bikes... back when gas powered engines were added to bicycles - they were called mopeds and there was no controversy about it. These days everyone argues about the different classes of e-bikes, but the bottom line is that a bicycle is a vehicle propelled solely by the force of human muscles. Bicycles have evolved in over 200 years quite a bit, but the basic truth is that bicycle is a non-motorized vehicle, and if one adds any motor to it, it becomes something else. I think it's best to be honest about it.

If trail access is at risk because of land managers' perceived dangers associated with e-bike riding, then it is pretty easy for them to close the trails to all users on any type of a bike. There is no point in comparing the US to Europe, as over in Europe the laws are much different, and they vary from one country to another. I don't think that a dialogue between the industry and various land managers is a bad thing - if it can avoid the conflicts that arose when mountain biking became popular, and hikers wanted bikers gone from all trails.

If e-biker proponents don't want that dialogue, and don't want to have productive discussion, then decisions regarding trail access will likely be made without their input, which won't be good.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Jack7782 said:


> It would be useful to learn what the Euros know about Class 1 EMTBs - especially the rationale for their lower Class 1 speed of 15MPH vs 20MPH in USA.
> 
> The Trek executive also advocates 15 MPH I think for safety reasons. Another reason may be to extend the riding range with one battery, making the product more practical and affordable is my thought.


Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.

There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.



richde said:


> News flash, genius: A lot of people can put out the max output of an ebike.


1200+ watts? A pro sprinter maybe

https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-all-terrain-m600-fs-review-full-suspension-e-bike/

https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-bikes-ex-cc-electric-bike-suspension/


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> Someone earlier gave you a good answer, but you ignored it. Let's try it again. You claim a lot of the trails in Santa Cruz are illegal, yet you and your crew and I'm sure other bikers still ride these trails regardless for years. Yet if they get closed down now, it's because of ebikes?
> 
> That's a tough one, because of one glaring fact! The trails in question are illegal. I guess my best advise I can give you is get them rich hippies out of positions of power!
> 
> ...


The trails I'm speaking of you've seen in advertising vids I'm sure. I'm not talking about secret illegal trails. Unsanctioned trails have been apart of the sport since day one. Kenda named a tire after a famous unsanctioned trail in Laguna Beach. Unsanctioned is a lot more common than many think. There's always been a balance between land managers and unsanctioned trail use. Ebikes are destroying that balance. We will lose access in some areas, yet all ebikers care about is their ability to make MTB easier. It's selfish. You guys expect the same access as mountain bikes, yet you fail to recognize just how precarious trail access in some areas is. I would feel like a dik if my desire to have a motor affected others. It seems that's a sentiment that doesn't exist in the moped community.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Wrong post


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Deleted


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Fuse6F said:


> This was your post.
> I thought you were joking!!! I even put that in my response to the post.
> 
> Here is my response to your post
> ...


The confusion stems from the fact that the trek executive's argument parralels your joking argument so much that if you view one as a joke you must also view the other as a joke.

With regards to your questions. Apologies if you were just pretending to be simple, but if you are seriously asking those questions, you probably shouldn't be starting threads surrounding the dynamics of ebikes.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

dogsonboards said:


> There is a difference though, in Europe e-bikes are limited to 15 Mph and max 250W. In the US Class 1 is 20 Mph and 750W.
> 
> This does make a difference.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA using Tapatalk





Harryman said:


> Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.
> 
> There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.
> 
> ...


There is no difference between USA and EU spec. motors except the 15mph vs 20mph. The watts rating on a bike is not that straight forward and I'm not going to explain it. If you are interested, look it up. USA Shimano's Steps e8000 = 250watts, the new USA Bosch motor = 250watts, these are nominal values and there are max values.

The issue is people only read the specs. 20mph max speed and wrongly assumes these bikes can do 20mph everywhere. If you have ridden an ebike on an actual true mountain bike park with climbing hills, very few people will hit 20mph and if they do, probably won't be able to hold 20mph for long. For me and most other ebikers, it gives me a 3 to 5mph boost of what I use to be able to do on a regular bike. On flat trails, yes piece of cake holding 20mph, but so can a regular biker. Slight up, yes an ebike will hold a higher top speed.

Just because an ebike makes a person stronger on a climb, doesn't mean he/she sudden becomes Gwin or Rude on the downhill or for that matter climbing. People forget, it still takes skill to ride fast on the downhill or going up technical climbs, which by the way every normal bike can easily do well over 20mph on the downhill. Where I ride, there are many riders with $8k bikes or more, with the best suspension money can by, yet they still can't go that fast downhill or tech climbing.

Harryman, I ride almost everyday true mtb trails and I encounter other ebikes, but I've not come across the other bikes you speak of, they have all been class 1 bikes. Even SkyPark, which is super popular with ebikes, I've not seen what you've seen. Not sure where you are riding??? When I'm in my car, I'll see these other ebikes and yes, they are going very fast, but those bikes don't look very off road worthy. Also around San Clemente beach, quite few surfers are using these ebikes with surf boards attached. One passed me up like I was standing still, but again, definitely not off road worthy.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

deleted​


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> There is no difference between USA and EU spec. motors except the 15mph vs 20mph. The watts rating on a bike is not that straight forward and I'm not going to explain it. If you are interested, look it up. USA Shimano's Steps e8000 = 250watts, the new USA Bosch motor = 250watts, these are nominal values and there are max values.
> 
> The issue is people only read the specs. 20mph max speed and wrongly assumes these bikes can do 20mph everywhere. If you have ridden an ebike on an actual true mountain bike park with climbing hills, very few people will hit 20mph and if they do, probably won't be able to hold 20mph for long. For me and most other ebikers, it gives me a 3 to 5mph boost of what I use to be able to do on a regular bike. On flat trails, yes piece of cake holding 20mph, but so can a regular biker. Slight up, yes an ebike will hold a higher top speed.
> 
> ...


You're mistaken in believing those guys are making informed arguments.

The max power of an ebike that's listed is the max COMBINED power the motor will put out along with what you provide. Push any harder and the motor doesn't help any more.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> What length of time can the ebike out power the human rider? Is just just for a minute or two? For example the bike in my previous post. How long could it output that power level? How long do you think the average rider can hold that power level?
> 
> i reviewed the study. Thanks for linking it. I took two things from it. More study is recommended and that with equal usage (same number of laps) there was about 5% greater damage caused by an ebike vs that of a normal mtb. Now remember that 5% more of hardly anything still is pretty much nothing. But in a black and white argument. My point stands.
> 
> ...


No, your point doesn't stand.

...and don't talk about etiquette when you're making passive aggressive reputation comments, especially when you're just here to troll around making bad faith arguments based in ignorance.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Class 1 ebikes would be considered mopeds in the EU because of their higher allowed speeds and power. Which is why the Trek guy proposed another class, which would be the same as their Pedelec. If you assume that ebike sellers and riders would follow the regulations, it would make sense and would have been the best route to gain almost unlimited emtb access.
> 
> There is zero evidence that all sellers in the US market will adhere to the 3 class system, the market is full of "ebikes" that are outside of the legal definition of an ebike, I see more of those than legal ones. Unless you're already an experienced mtb rider, they're appealing, lots of power and the best bang for the buck.
> 
> ...


Are those bikes legal on trails in the US? Might as well post a link to a KTM 450, it's about as clever as what you did.

No they're not and you know they aren't. Pretty sad state of affairs when even the mods are trolling.

1200w isn't that hard either.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

richde said:


> You're mistaken in believing those guys are making informed arguments.
> 
> The max power of an ebike that's listed is the max COMBINED power the motor will put out along with what you provide. Push any harder and the motor doesn't help any more.


Are you saying that Once the motor has given its 540 watts of power any extra is given by you. Eg, 541watts then 540 is by bike and 1 by the rider.

Assuming the bike was set to full assist.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

richde said:


> No, your point doesn't stand.
> 
> ...and don't talk about etiquette when you're making passive aggressive reputation comments, especially when you're just here to troll around making bad faith arguments based in ignorance.


Sure wish you would take the time to explain.

would help to clean up some of the ignorance.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Deleted


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-bikes-ex-cc-electric-bike-suspension/

https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-all-terrain-m600-fs-review-full-suspension-e-bike/



richde said:


> Are those bikes legal on trails in the US? Might as well post a link to a KTM 450, it's about as clever as what you did. No they're not and you know they aren't. Pretty sad state of affairs when even the mods are trolling.


Well, he's not trolling because that 1200 watt ebike looks like a legal ebike, making it a legal ebike by default. A KTM 450 looks and sounds nothing like an ebike that has either more or less than 750watts, so not a clever comparison by you in any way.

Regardless, that was one of the big points the ex trek exec was making. How would anyone (landmanager) know that those ebikes put out 1200 watts? Land managers can easily identify a KTM 450 from an ebike however. Making a trail legal for class 1 or 2 ebikes is essentially making it legal for those 1200watt ebikes as there is no practical way to differentiate between them. And since that is the case, the 1200 watt ebikes become legal by default as there is not way to enforce the class system.

If it's legal to sell and buy 1200 watt ebikes that look no different than 
<750watt ebikes, then there going to be used where <750 watt ebikes are used with no restrictions. That's just the way it is and that's a legit and serious problem for the ebike industry.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

I was in the city today and saw the new levo sl. Pretty nice. They had the battery ejected and a motor cut out for people to view. Actually i thought it would be more complicated. I might post them on the levo thread check there if anyone is interested.

I took the time to ask what the dealer sales people thought about ebikes, where they were headed, applications, their experience. I was suprised by what they said. Here are a few comments.

One said they will get more and more powerful. 
This person also said we will likely see alot of trail closures from hikers who complain about getting startled, etc by how fast they go. But also said they wont be mainstream bikes for everyone as they are too expensive.

I also asked/stated, but the levo Sl with its light weight means you can ride it after the battery is out or just ride normally. To which i heard. No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.

Another said that the levo was nice but rides a much cheaper and less capable model as its not affordable. Also stated they had lots of experience riding them (it was this salespersons bike area)

Another said they will dominate Bike sales In the near future.

This is just feedback i got today. Not bull ship.

anyone asked the same questions around their local bike shops?

i also found the santa cruz ebike promotion interesting. I feel it relevant to this thread to see how/where they think their bike fits into current trends.

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-CA/news/2020-lost-sierras-heckler-launch


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richde said:


> I can't run a marathon, but I bet I could if I put in the time to train for it....I bet most people could. Putting out >1,000w for a few seconds isn't any different, it's probably easier than that once you figure out the right technique. force*velocity, figure it out.
> 
> But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by close minded ignorance, and *I can only assume the last thing you want to address is the rest of that post that you decided to cherry pick*.


Are you naturally this unpleasant or did you have to train for it?

Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I predict a lot more novice riders getting good and hurt on e- bikes. Properly. 

It feels a lot like the very early days of dirt bikes, where dirt bikes were very slow, and appeared to be a totally non serious easy way for non athletes to go have fun in a manner they had no experience with. 

Talk to anyone from the golden era of dirt bikes ('60s-'70s) when even with a much smaller overall population manufacturers were selling 10x the dirt bikes they do now. They all witnessed a lot of non motorcyclists off themselves completely which eventually led to the downfall of the sport in mass. 

The sport went from being considered cute, fun, and easy to the realization that it's actually quite dangerous and needs to be taken very seriously. 

We are all enthusiasts, but rest assured that totally unqualified people will soon be renting e-bikes while on vacations and hitting the trails. 
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

deleted


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Just stumbled across this headline,

" E-BIKES GO FAST, AND E-BIKES ARE HEAVY, SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A FORK THAT CAN HANDLE THE PUNISHMENT ALL THAT WEIGHT AND MOMENTUM DISHES OUT. FOX HAVE JUST RELEASED E-BIKE OPTIMISED VARIANTS OF THE 34 AND 36, AND WE'VE GOT ONE ON TEST."

https://flowmountainbike.com/tests/fox-e-bike-optimised-34-fork/

Sounds to me that that is code for more trail damage,
especially since it is written in all caps.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.


Here is some data comparing a road climb vs a single track climb. Seems like it justifies the lower levo sl power output. Unless we think specialized doesnt know what they are doing. But it also supports the idea we dont need higher and higher ebike power.

https://fascatcoaching.com/tips/mountain-bike-power/

If anyone knows anyone over at specialized.... send me a pm. Id like to get in touch.


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## JumpinMacaque (Jan 26, 2010)

Fuse6F said:


> Spoiler Alert! Dont watch it if your trying to prove that the points in the presentation are nothing but ehate!


Yes, it's clear that few of the commenters actually watched the video. He spoke about the disconnect between industry and the advocates who actually get trails built and maintained. To me, this is the biggest part, not erosion or anything. The funding and approval for our latest trail project was based on the fact that it was a nonmotorized trail system. If the land managers have rules about motorized trail or construction, if the people with relationships and funding have rules or missions based on non/motorized divide, then eMTBers should expect not to get any help without bringing something to the table. But it is convenient for me that eMTB community has shown little to no value to my area, it makes my decisions easy.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Was thinking the same on the santa cruz add. Gonna need good insurance for the helicopter to come lift so and so off the mountain. Cause walking out would be a real problem.
> 
> The add pretty much hammers home everything we are discussing here.
> 
> Spoiler Alert! Dont watch it if your trying to prove that the points in the presentation are nothing but ehate!


I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path. I do believe they were actually talking to trail builders as well and how ebikes are going to help reconnect all the little towns together. Help bring prosperity back to these community. I saw it as a very positive ad as I'm sure just about all the ebike fans and I imagine quite a sizable future emtb riders out there. And trust me, there is a lot out there and every month the negativity towards ebikes gets smaller and smaller:thumbsup:

Amazing what a 1/2 glass empty person see into this ad:madman:


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## 2old (Aug 31, 2015)

I wouldn't use a eBike but I could care less if I saw one on the trails.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-bikes-ex-cc-electric-bike-suspension/
> 
> https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-all-terrain-m600-fs-review-full-suspension-e-bike/
> 
> ...


Thank goodness these are exceptions and far and few from the norm from what I've been seeing on the trails. I have not seen a bike like this on actual trails. If we are talking about what we see on the bike paths and street, then all bets are off. As most people are just looking for a fast, cheap commuter bike to get them from point A to point B. Luckily for us, riding true mountain bike trails actually takes skill.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

mtbbiker said:


> I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path. I do believe they were actually talking to trail builders as well and how ebikes are going to help reconnect all the little towns together. Help bring prosperity back to these community. I saw it as a very positive ad as I'm sure just about all the ebike fans and I imagine quite a sizable future emtb riders out there. And trust me, there is a lot out there and every month the negativity towards ebikes gets smaller and smaller:thumbsup:
> 
> Amazing what a 1/2 glass empty person see into this ad:madman:


I can see your point. Its hard to get a full message across in a paragraph. I would happily ride an ebike anytime. Though Im not purchasing one for a variety of reasons.

The add definitely makes me want to go ride there!!! Perhaps we will run into each other there this summer.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you naturally this unpleasant or did you have to train for it?
> 
> Actually I've been working pretty hard lately to produce more watts but so far all I can manage is about the peak power of a Turbo Levo and I can only hold that for a few seconds. I admit I'm jealous of highly trained pros and cat 1's who can lay down 1200w for 5 or 10 seconds. You may poke fun at my weakness now if you want, I'm expecting it.


Why do you expect pleasantness when you act unpleasantly?

You take an off-topic comment and run with it ignoring the rest of the post...you clearly want to argue but don't want to stick to the subject at hand. God forbid you comment on the red herring I was pointing out, better make some ad hominem attack. Is that supposed to be "pleasant" behavior? Ever hear that saying about how respect is earned? The pleasantness you desire starts in you.

I'd put you in the "most people" camp by default, because I'm not sure how else it could be interpreted, so you're just showing how you're the one looking for a argument. Most people don't try to get max sub-30 second power because it's wasteful and has no real application in their riding, so they don't know if they can do it or not. All of which is on top of the fact that most people don't even use power meters and have no real idea of what they are or aren't capable of.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> https://electrek.co/2019/10/11/frey-bikes-ex-cc-electric-bike-suspension/
> 
> https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/m2s-all-terrain-m600-fs-review-full-suspension-e-bike/
> 
> ...


Point being that they aren't the bikes we're referring to and he should either know it, or figure out what he's talking about before weighing in.

Looks have nothing to do with it, and just because you want to wave the same red herring around doesn't make his ignorant trollish comment any less ignorant or trollish..and only serves to make you ignorant and trollish.

It's also legal to sell a 150hp semi-off road adventure motorcycle, and they could possibly be taken on MTB trails. But like the rest of what you're talking about, that's not the point because THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED.

Illegal ebikes look like legal ebikes that look like non-assisted bikes, so ban all the bikes is the clear answer you're ignorantly driving towards.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> You should train for one.


I don't want to, but I'm not going to look down on someone that does...unlike you.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Are you saying that Once the motor has given its 540 watts of power any extra is given by you. Eg, 541watts then 540 is by bike and 1 by the rider.
> 
> Assuming the bike was set to full assist.


No, I never said that. You think that because you don't do any research. How about you figure out how ebikes work before commenting on them...you know that whole "more research is needed" thing you keep whining about.

More research does need to be done, by you.



Fuse6F said:


> Sure wish you would take the time to explain.
> 
> would help to clean up some of the ignorance.


5% isn't statistically relevant. Say it was 10cm of dirt displaced by a regular bike, so it would be 10.5cm displaced by an ebike after what...600 runs, by real humans. Not only would it be difficult to tell the difference without precision measurement, human variability and basic randomness makes the difference irrelevant.

That difference could come down to the added weight, so I suppose a cure to your sudden concern about trail damage would be to institute a weight limit for the trails.

How about we go for 230lbs combined bike and rider, seem fair? I mean we should all be concerned about trail damage and it's pretty obvious that a heavier bike and rider will have more impact on the trail surface, right?

Let me guess, that wasn't what you were actually worried about, was it?

It's baffling why you guys don't think about the implications of your red herring arguments about power, weight and range.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Ebikes are in a rapid development phase that affect everyone This includes analog, ebike, hikers, animals, advocates, enforcement, access rights, etc. We might not all agree on the what where and how. It will take careful planning and some compromise here and there to fit in all concerns. Hopefully it turns out positive and we all benefit from it.

Have a safe season out there!


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Fuse6F said:


> Ebikes are in a rapid development phase that affect everyone This includes analog, ebike, hikers, animals, advocates, enforcement, access rights, etc. We might not all agree on the what where and how. It will take careful planning and some compromise here and there to fit in all concerns. Hopefully it turns out positive and we all benefit from it.
> 
> Have a safe season out there!


From your posts, you're not looking for a positive resolution because you're approaching it from such a negative perspective.

Land managers have for the most part decided that they don't care, because every concern about ebikes is also a concern about all bikes, whether it's power, weight, range or even risk.

They're powerful, so are some people.
They're heavy, so are some people.
They can ride farther, so can some people.
You can get hurt, it's a risky sport for everyone.

The SMART way to approach it, if you actually care about trail access, is to welcome ebike riders so we can all be stronger together. If you don't care about those things, go ahead and alienate a segment of the population and give the people who don't want any bikes the ammunitions to kick everyone off the trails...just because some people decided to spend some extra money to be able to climb faster than you can.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

richde said:


> From your posts, you're not looking for a positive resolution because you're approaching it from such a negative perspective.
> 
> Land managers have for the most part decided that they don't care, because every concern about ebikes is also a concern about all bikes, whether it's power, weight, range or even risk.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, YES! As Ben Franklin famously said, "We must all hang together or most assuredly we will all hang separately..."


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

mtbbiker said:


> I guess it all depends on perspective when reviewing the Santa Cruz ad. I love and embrace ebikes and you clearly don't. I see more fun and adventure on trails that are hardly ridden because they are just so far off the beaten path.





Fuse6F said:


> i also found the santa cruz ebike promotion interesting. I feel it relevant to this thread to see how/where they think their bike fits into current trends.
> 
> https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-CA/news/2020-lost-sierras-heckler-launch


You guys realize every single one of the trails shown in the Santa Cruz ad are moto trails right? Basically all the main downeville trails are ORIGINALLY Moto trails that MTB's co-opted. I've ridden them all on my yz450f (which by the way puts out 35, 000 watts without me pedaling at all). They are super fun on a moto. I'm pretty sure my single digit number of laps on those trails probably did more damage than 5 years of hordes of e-bikers might do. And nobody up there cares.

This talk about e-bikes being on those trails is hilarious.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Fuse6F said:


> No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.


I've ridden plenty of miles on my YT Decoy with the motor off. The Shimano motor has pretty much zero drag when it's in off mode. Wouldn't make sense to ride it with the motor on while I'm riding with my friend on analog bikes.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Gemini2k05 said:


> No one rides an ebike after the battery is dead! Period! It doesnt matter how heavy/light. The type of people who ride an ebike only ride them when they are motorized.
> 
> I've ridden plenty of miles on my YT Decoy with the motor off. The Shimano motor has pretty much zero drag when it's in off mode. Wouldn't make sense to ride it with the motor on while I'm riding with my friend on analog bikes.


Hi. Thanks for the post.

I just wanted to clarify that the quote you cut out above was a the response given to me *by the salesperson* when asked about pedalling ebikes. Please dont take it as my statement.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Fuse6F said:


> https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The...n-Letter-to-Bike-Industry-About-E-Bikes,10793
> 
> here is a discussion of some of the issues around ebikes and trail access and where ebikes could/are headed.
> 
> ...


Vadeboncoeur's proposal for a "trail class" eBike matches the Specialized SL pretty well except for the 20 mph cutout; its 240 watts PEAK output is what I though I was getting when I bought my "250 watt" Haibike, which actually puts out 500 watts and is labeled as 500 watts on the class I sticker. If Specialized sells a lot of the SL bikes, the trail class might be viable if assist is also limited to 15mph max. This wouldn't change how I ride much, other than my commute being a few minutes longer and having to gear down more an finesse the climbs.

End the madness; stop the power race.

My local trails are open to eBikes and no one hates on me there, but I'm in Arizona which is a bit more live and let live because we have so many trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

hikerdave said:


> My local trails are open to eBikes and no one hates on me there, but I'm in Arizona which is a bit more live and let live because we have so many trails.


No one hates you here either, enjoy the ride!


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Can someone explain the speed cut off to me? Since to me there should just be a hard cut off at 250 watts how you use those watts is up to you.

Limit the watts via diodes and mosfets jail break the the computer and poof goes the electronics.


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## JumpinMacaque (Jan 26, 2010)

When an ebike hits its cutoff speed, it stops applying electricity to the motor. If the motor is giving everything it has, plus the input of the rider, it is possible to still go less than the speed limit on a steep hill. In that case, the actual wattage put to the motor may be more than the number on the sticker. 
The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

Rider input is not part of the equation. If you want to nerd out on rider power, check this out.
https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

aoliver said:


> When an ebike hits its cutoff speed, it stops applying electricity to the motor. If the motor is giving everything it has, plus the input of the rider, it is possible to still go less than the speed limit on a steep hill. In that case, the actual wattage put to the motor may be more than the number on the sticker.
> The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com
> 
> Rider input is not part of the equation. If you want to nerd out on rider power, check this out.
> https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare


Oh I know how the speed limit works I guess I should've asked why have it to begin with. Just make a hard restriction on watts and the amount of assist is self regulating until you let the magic blue smoke out.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Well I was a former ebike basher that has now eaten his words. I hated every aspect of the ebike. Drove me nuts seeing them on the trails. Here in CA there pretty much legal everywhere a regular bike is. I’m a avid rider. 4-5 times a week. 500k-600k elevation a year. 40-50 mile days no problem. I’m 46 so it’s not like I need it. This past weekend I rented a Levo SL to ride at my favorite place Henry Coe. If anyone has ever ridden there they know what the climbs are like. 15% for 2+ miles sometimes. Ive gotten use to hiking most of those climbs because they are unridable to me. That SL was stupid fun. All those climbs I had to hike I was able to climb in trail mode. I was still working my ass off but giggling the whole way up. I rode for 27 miles 6.5K feet. The bike still had 29% battery left. My average heart rate for those 4 hours was 146bpm. So yes I’m a fellow ebike hater that has now eaten his words.....More will be on the way. They just have to ride it


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Vin829 said:


> All those climbs I had to hike I was able to climb in trail mode. I was still working my ass off but giggling the whole way up.


When I was younger, I used to love cleaning long (and technical) climbs, but as an "older gentleman" ha ha, I find I can once attack those climbs with confidence, but in eco or trail mode. Momentum, picking lines, shifting weight, ratcheting pedals, all those natural skills - PLUS young man power and torque to make it happen. Fun stuff for sure.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I updated the Original post to include the correct link to the article instead of a link to a forum as well as copied in the entire article for reference.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Fuse6F said:


> Many of the responses About the experts points being wrong were wrong. We should hear from Everyone. Especially those who are building trails and trying to improve trail access, people who devoted their careers to making a living with and around bikes. Even from those who might be new to the sport as fresh perspectives can bring fresh ideas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with Joe Vadeboncoeur's article this thread is about. His opinions/observations may be a little different from mine but are certainly in the same ballpark.

That he's called an idiot right out of the starting gate speaks of the lack of civility in the MTB community; and why the MTB community has a hard time getting to the table where real trail access issues are discussed.

My anecdotal $.02 is as follows; I help maintain trails in a NorCal park where Specialized does much of their ebike prototyping; the majority of biking by park visitors is now by ebikes. Any one ebike has only the slightest increased detrimental effect on the trails; it's that there are twice as many being ridden twice as far. The math works out to 4X the wear-and-tear; for this the industry needs to support something like the "green sticker" program that funds California's OHV program.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Moe Ped said:


> I see nothing wrong with Joe Vadeboncoeur's article this thread is about. His opinions/observations may be a little different from mine but are certainly in the same ballpark.
> 
> That he's called an idiot right out of the starting gate speaks of the lack of civility in the MTB community; and why the MTB community has a hard time getting to the table where real trail access issues are discussed.
> 
> My anecdotal $.02 is as follows; I help maintain trails in a NorCal park where Specialized does much of their ebike prototyping; the majority of biking by park visitors is now by ebikes. Any one ebike has only the slightest increased detrimental effect on the trails; it's that there are twice as many being ridden twice as far. The math works out to 4X the wear-and-tear; for this the industry needs to support something like the "green sticker" program that funds California's OHV program.


I'm guessing your talking about Henry Coe? I ride Henry Coe at least twice a week. I ride my regular bike and ebike. I don't agree with having a "green sticker" program just like OHV. That is the most ridiculous program in place and is also in place for air quality. As it is it might be going away at Hollister Hills and other state parks. The trails don't know the difference of a 200lbs rider on a 30lbs trail bike than it does a 150lbs rider on a 45lbs ebike. Yes they can go a lot further. But I have done many 40mile 10k feet out there on my regular bike. 
I do think they need to add another class. The regular Levo is too powerful I think. I have the new SL and feels it's the perfect compromise


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Vin829 said:


> The trails don't know the difference of a 200lbs rider on a 30lbs trail bike than it does a 150lbs rider on a 45lbs ebike.


But what about a 200# rider on a 45# ebike vs. that 150# rider on a 30# MTB? 26% + if the math is done. And that the ebike easily doubles the traction forces applied to the trail tread (climbing). See Strava if you need proof.

FWIW with gear I'm closer to 230# and my ebike is north of 60#. I'm glad they allow ebikes in Coe, it's got enough room. The same can't be said for elsewhere.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Moe Ped said:


> But what about a 200# rider on a 45# ebike vs. that 150# rider on a 30# MTB? 26% + if the math is done. And that the ebike easily doubles the traction forces applied to the trail tread (climbing). See Strava if you need proof.
> 
> FWIW with gear I'm closer to 230# and my ebike is north of 60#. I'm glad they allow ebikes in Coe, it's got enough room. The same can't be said for elsewhere.


I just don't see how they can take it away now that they have allowed it. Especially of the reason cause the rider is on the heavy size. Ebikes were made for Henry Coe. It's the only place I really ride mine
Plus what about horses? Don't even get me started on that. 2000lbs animal with a rider. Plus I've never seen a equestrian do trail work


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Vin829 said:


> I just don't see how they can take it away now that they have allowed it. Especially of the reason cause the rider is on the heavy size. Ebikes were made for Henry Coe. It's the only place I really ride mine
> Plus what about horses? Don't even get me started on that. 2000lbs animal with a rider. Plus I've never seen a equestrian do trail work


We have an area out here for horses and bikes/hikers. They have separate trails.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Vin829 said:


> I just don't see how they can take it away now that they have allowed it. Especially of the reason cause the rider is on the heavy size. Ebikes were made for Henry Coe. It's the only place I really ride mine
> Plus what about horses? Don't even get me started on that. 2000lbs animal with a rider. Plus I've never seen a equestrian do trail work


2000# is a bit of an exaggeration, 1200# is big for a quarter horse. While my daughter's warmblood is around 1400# my wife's Arab is under 900#. YMMV.

On our uniformed volunteer trail maintenance team at Coe (doing trail work at least 52X a year), of the regulars; 4 are equestrians, 6 are MTBers and 6 are hikers. A couple of the equestrians also MTB. All of us hike. I do ride a horse occasionally. Almost all of the "hiking-only" trail volunteers also road bike but not MTB.

Up until park staff put the brakes on volunteer trail work about 6 years ago; 40% of the work days were organized by the equestrian group, 40% by the bike patrol and maybe 20% by the hiking community.

When you see us working you won't be able tell what our trail preferences are; making assumptions is showing a bias.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Moe Ped said:


> 2000# is a bit of an exaggeration, 1200# is big for a quarter horse. While my daughter's warmblood is around 1400# my wife's Arab is under 900#. YMMV.
> 
> On our uniformed volunteer trail maintenance team at Coe (doing trail work at least 52X a year), of the regulars; 4 are equestrians, 6 are MTBers and 6 are hikers. A couple of the equestrians also MTB. All of us hike. I do ride a horse occasionally. Almost all of the "hiking-only" trail volunteers also road bike but not MTB.
> 
> ...


You're right. I apologize I was being biased about the trail work. I have put my name on the email list to be a volunteer patrol out at Coe. I understand it's a series of classes to take. I just don't want to see the MTB recreation turn into what our OHV did. One of the reasons I quit dirt biking.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

No one can tell what wattage a motor is. Besides that, why is it the same wattage for a 80lb crack head, and a 350lb obese person. That is why the automotive industry puts limits on speed, not limited Lambo's to 200hp.



mtbbiker said:


> Agreed with your message, except USA has already adopted what defines an ebike:
> *All 3 classes are at or below 750 watts (1hp)*. If an bike is above that then they are only legal on private land or where motorized vehicles are allowed and are obviously not in any of the 3 classes.
> Class 1 pedal assist only, assisted top speed 20mph
> Class 2 pedal/throttle, assisted top speed 20mph
> Class 3 top assisted speed 28


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> No one can tell what wattage a motor is. Besides that, why is it the same wattage for a 80lb crack head, and a 350lb obese person. That is why the automotive industry puts limits on speed, not limited Lambo's to 200hp.


Ebikes are speed limited too.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ebikes are speed limited too.


^^^ Correct!
Going DH you can go as fast as it can roll just like all other bikes. The limit is used when pedaling and 20MPH is pretty fast in most cases.

If a owner was to mod the limiter it will be detected and void the warranty on a Specialized so I'm told. Really can't see the reason to do so since it's goes just fine as is.

It would be best if anyone was wondering about eBikes and have questions and concerns, they should go for a full ride on one before loving or hating on them. Make up your own mind about them.
If someone doesn't want one, keep your money in your pocket. If you want one, go shopping. The biggest thing is that we all get out and ride to enjoy the sport :thumbsup:


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

I am at the point of finally getting an emtb. And probably selling Bronson.

I realized that I can do all kinds of very cool loops with emtb in my area without going to far. Its not going to replace my dirtbike, but I can almost ignore the fact that I dont have any time to ride it.

Do emtbs do more damage to trails compare to mtbs? Yes, when it is rainy season here in Bay Area. I saw people pedaling away on emtbs on hillclimbs I could barely walk. I definitely saw way more damage to trails in the last few years during the rainy season. 
This is probably just a very specific local issue.

That former exec has very good points.
In any case hikers hate all of us.
And mtb guys hated me on my dirt bike when I was in Moab few years back.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Art666 said:


> I am at the point of finally getting an emtb. And probably selling Bronson.
> 
> I realized that I can do all kinds of very cool loops with emtb in my area without going to far. Its not going to replace my dirtbike, but I can almost ignore the fact that I dont have any time to ride it.
> 
> ...


Where in the Bay Area are you? I just picked up a Levo SL.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

Art666 said:


> Do emtbs do more damage to trails compare to mtbs? Yes, when it is rainy season here in Bay Area. I saw people pedaling away on emtbs on hillclimbs I could barely walk. I definitely saw way more damage to trails in the last few years during the rainy season.
> back.


Regardless of the type of bike ridden, it might not have been a good idea to ride that trail in those conditions.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Dirtrider127 said:


> Regardless of the type of bike ridden, it might not have been a good idea to ride that trail in those conditions.


The deal is with "analog" bikes it takes many weeks, months or even years to develop the level of fitness to comfortably "conquer" (master?) the sport. During that time and through the course of many dozens of rides the riders are developing a "common sense" about the proprieties of the sport. (Like not riding wet trails, like not skidding)

A newbie e-biker puts down his money and can be out on the trails without a clue ("good idea") about the sport of MTB'ing. That's what's different.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Moe Ped said:


> The deal is with "analog" bikes it takes many weeks, months or even years to develop the level of fitness to comfortably "conquer" (master?) the sport. During that time and through the course of many dozens of rides the riders are developing a "common sense" about the proprieties of the sport. (Like not riding wet trails, like not skidding)
> 
> A newbie e-biker puts down his money and can be out on the trails without a clue ("good idea") about the sport of MTB'ing. That's what's different.


This again! Sudden a guy/gal buys an ebike and he/she is Gwin! Please, this is just not the case, the same learning curve that a normal biker goes through an ebiker needs to learn as well. Stop spouting off this ignorant thought! Anyone that rides a trail in poor conditions will cause trail damage period, whether its hikers, dog walkers, horse back or bikes/ebikes. These are all example of uninformed or just thoughtless users.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> This again! Sudden a guy/gal buys an ebike and he/she is Gwin! Please, this is just not the case, the same learning curve that a normal biker goes through an ebiker needs to learn as well. Stop spouting off this ignorant thought! Anyone that rides a trail in poor conditions will cause trail damage period, whether its hikers, dog walkers, horse back or bikes/ebikes. These are all example of uninformed or just thoughtless users.


Sorry, my experience differs from yours. From my POV you're the ignorant one.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Typical e-bike rider:






I predict this thread will be locked soon.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Moe Ped said:


> Typical e-bike rider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Moe ped, I've seen your posts and your dislike of ebikes is stronger than most. I love how again, you are so miss informed!

You had to find a video from the UK, where it rains most of the time and where everyone from that area rides in that slop! Keep trolling!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

^^^ That would be sad..
Every thread or post doesn't need to be a flame war


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

mtbbiker said:


> Moe ped, I've seen your posts and your dislike of ebikes is stronger than most. I love how again, you are so miss informed!
> 
> You had to find a video from the UK, where it rains most of the time and where everyone from that area rides in that slop! Keep trolling!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And yet I have 4 e-bikes and ride them more than my analog bikes. I'm sure I can find a NorCal video if you'd like. E-bikes are a real problem for trail access advocacy.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Moe Ped said:


> And yet I have 4 e-bikes and ride them more than my analog bikes. I'm sure I can find a NorCal video if you'd like. E-bikes are a real problem for trail access advocacy.


Sorry Moe Ped, I got you confused with another user.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Moe Ped said:


> Sorry, my experience differs from yours. From my POV you're the ignorant one.


You actually know or have meet a newbee that bought a e-bike from the get go? Since that is what your whole claim is based on. I have yet to see someone coming into mountain biking that is willing to spend $1500 let alone $3500 and up.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Moe Ped said:


> Typical e-bike rider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do know:

1) That channel is out of the UK
2) Many ride on wet trails when they should not, it has nothing to do with e-bikes.
* I see is all the time and it is not newbies it is always people that I have seen riding for years that should know better. But they just had to get their ride in.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> You actually know or have meet a newbee that bought a e-bike from the get go? Since that is what your whole claim is based on. I have yet to see someone coming into mountain biking that is willing to spend $1500 let alone $3500 and up.


Yes I know quite a few; the most recent is an equestrian acquaintance who thought what I was doing with an e-bike was pretty neat. (That said he wouldn't be the type to ride stupidly) A couple of roadie friends that took up MTB'ing because e-bikes finally made it easy enough. One of those guys just got a $62K bill for a Medivac flight. Remember what I said in an earlier post about common sense? Roadie speeds on the dirt don't always work out too well.

Mostly though it's casual MTB'ers that might have ridden once every couple of months are now out at least once a week because it became that much easier. These are folks I know personally. I meet many more out in the parks and from this is where I have mostly developed my opinions.

As far as the economics go; NorCal is a world unto itself---I think the poverty line is now at around $150K/year. $3500 for an e-bike sounds pretty reasonable.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Moe Ped said:


> Yes I know quite a few; the most recent is an equestrian acquaintance who thought what I was doing with an e-bike was pretty neat. (That said he wouldn't be the type to ride stupidly) A couple of roadie friends that took up MTB'ing because e-bikes finally made it easy enough. One of those guys just got a $62K bill for a Medivac flight. Remember what I said in an earlier post about common sense? Roadie speeds on the dirt don't always work out too well.
> 
> Mostly though it's casual MTB'ers that might have ridden once every couple of months are now out at least once a week because it became that much easier. These are folks I know personally. I meet many more out in the parks and from this is where I have mostly developed my opinions.
> 
> As far as the economics go; NorCal is a world unto itself---I think the poverty line is now at around $150K/year. $3500 for an e-bike sounds pretty reasonable.


True the context of the area and what a high price is are tied together.

I have a hard time here in Missouri getting someone to spend $1000 for a real mountain bike not some POS they got from Walmart or a garage sale. Most of the newbies I have gotten into the sport want to start super cheap $700 or less just to try it out.

Your trails are also very different than ours too I don't see many roadies converting over given the trees, rocks, twisting track and hills we ride here. I know of a few but there is a big divide between the two groups.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> A couple of roadie friends that took up MTB'ing because e-bikes finally made it easy enough. One of those guys just got a $62K bill for a Medivac flight. Remember what I said in an earlier post about common sense? Roadie speeds on the dirt don't always work out too well.


Oh, FFS. There are plenty of morons who get in over their heads on regular MTBs too. Hell, if anything eMTBs slow you down a bit on descents which is where most carnage happens.

This line of argument that "eMTBs will bring more noobs into the woods" reeks of elitism to me. You were a noob once. So was every MTBer, no matter how they started or where they came from.

Knuckleheads will be knuckleheads - whether in a car, on a fixie, a skateboard, an MTB, or an eMTB. Let Darwin thin the herd naturally.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Once the Class 1 & 2 bikes get widely approved, it's going to be a free for all out there. The bikes can be easily modified and sometimes just programmed via an app to go much faster. We as a culture can't leave things alone...just look at dirt bikes, UTV's and boats that go plenty fast but we modify them to go even faster. ebikes will be no different. We have a local guy here that is 72 years old and has a Foes fatbike "ebike" that does 40 mph with his aftermarket attached motor. More power to you if you think people are going to follow the "Class 1 bikes only" rules when posted. They will ride whatever they want and IF miraculously caught, they will plead ignorance like all the ebikers currently riding illegal trails. Maybe I'll get this one


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

k2rider1964 said:


> it's going to be a free for all out there...just look at dirt bikes, UTV's and boats that go plenty fast but we modify them to go even faster.


The pearl clutching continues. Oh no, it's going to be a dystopian nightmare! Imagine all of the psychos on their souped-up e-bikes and boats!! LOL


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

KenPsz said:


> You actually know or have meet a newbee that bought a e-bike from the get go? Since that is what your whole claim is based on. I have yet to see someone coming into mountain biking that is willing to spend $1500 let alone $3500 and up.


I have. 2 people. They were riding illegally, and admitted to modding their machines.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

South San Francisco


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Art666 said:


> South San Francisco


Oh cool. I'm in San Jose and ride Henry Coe couple times a week


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

Dirtrider127 said:


> Regardless of the type of bike ridden, it might not have been a good idea to ride that trail in those conditions.


Agree, I usually wait a week or two. I used to switch to dirtbike riding when it rains, but no time to travel last few years.
We do have trails which are always open, with some sections closed off.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

i posted a gas bike i saw on the beach in brasil. i thought people would get it.

i was making fun of people who think that if they are riding in an electric vehicle that they are being good to the environment. so i just said the smoky two stroke was producing electricity. so that would make it acceptable.

there are people buying electric cars and saying look how good my mpg is. no one looks at the energy consumption as a whole. Tesla is not marketing lower energy consumption. this is their marketing.

https://www.tesla.com/it_IT/blog/new-tesla-model-s-now-quickest-production-car-world

Back to bikes... we've taken a human powered device and motorized it and then decided it is good!!!

put more simply, its a performance enhancement. nobody buys ebikes because they are harder to ride. they buy them because they are easier to ride. You dont see many single speed bikes from the bike companies do you.

If the whole reason they exist is because of the performance enhancement. should we be confused by the fact that they will become more powerful and modified for more power.

the electric bike posted earlier makes no sense. why pedal at all. yet it is an electric bicycle. maybe it has or could have a low power mode that makes it legal on trails. maybe it has no throttle in that mode. i see no reason to limit its use anywhere.

if you have a problem with that bike. then maybe you should have a problem with all ebikes.

it was these types of issues that was the spirit of the presentation that started this thread.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

k2rider1964 said:


> Once the Class 1 & 2 bikes get widely approved, it's going to be a free for all out there. The bikes can be easily modified and sometimes just programmed via an app to go much faster. We as a culture can't leave things alone...just look at dirt bikes, UTV's and boats that go plenty fast but we modify them to go even faster. ebikes will be no different. We have a local guy here that is 72 years old and has a Foes fatbike "ebike" that does 40 mph with his aftermarket attached motor. More power to you if you think people are going to follow the "Class 1 bikes only" rules when posted. They will ride whatever they want and IF miraculously caught, they will plead ignorance like all the ebikers currently riding illegal trails. Maybe I'll get this one


Good lord I wish some of you would learn some electrical stuff. Sure you can overvolt or change the settings but only to a point. There is an electrical threshold at which the electronics will let out the magic blue smoke that cannot be put back in.

You push a 250W or 750W motor long enough over 1000W the amps and heat will fry it.

Now these stupid 1500+ W motors you can buy have no business on a normal mountain bike trail. Where I'm at you will not see them since trails are to tight to take advantage of those stupid watt numbers. But then the bike industry and forums like this do seem to be CA focused and I really could care less about CA riding and trail issue since their issues are not my issues yet they want to make them mine.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> Good lord I wish some of you would learn some electrical stuff. Sure you can overvolt or change the settings but only to a point. There is an electrical threshold at which the electronics will let out the magic blue smoke that cannot be put back in.
> 
> You push a 250kW or 750kW motor long enough over 1000kW and heat will fry it. I built a commuter hub bike for my 62 year old mom and she almost melted the wires pushing the amps to high.
> 
> Now these stupid 1500+ kW motors you can buy have no business on a normal mountain bike trail. Where I'm at you will not see them since trails are to tight to take advantage of those stupid watt numbers. But then the bike industry and forums like this do seem to be CA focused and I really could care less about CA riding and trail issue since their issues are not my issues yet they want to make them mine.


Uumm... in regards to learning electrical stuff you're leaving out decimal points.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Moe Ped said:


> Uumm... in regards to learning electrical stuff you're leaving out decimal points.


Oh dang sorry I am working on an inverter that is in kW and my brain was still there, sorry.

Yes a 1 MW motor would be a bit big for a bike. LOL

I will fix the previous post.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

KenPsz said:


> Oh dang sorry I am working on an inverter that is in kW and my brain was still there, sorry.
> 
> Yes a 1 MW motor would be a bit big for a bike. LOL


...though my KTM 300 has a 35 KWh motor!


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

KenPsz said:


> Oh dang sorry I am working on an inverter that is in kW and my brain was still there, sorry.
> 
> Yes a 1 MW motor would be a bit big for a bike. LOL
> 
> I will fix the previous post.


Even 250kW is a bit big:








The caption said "250 kW motors being offloaded from a lorry"; I just looked up "lorry" and I don't think that's a lorry. Truck and trailer IMHO.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> Where I'm at you will not see them since trails are to tight to take advantage of those stupid watt numbers.


Where I am in Colorado, I see all sorts of poorly designed and constructed ebikes on singletrack in the Class 2 - light motorcycle range. None of which are legal, and judging by appearances only, ridden by people new to riding bikes. Just because you or I would choose a different tool for the job, don't underestimate the power of ignorance and plain old IDGAF.

Big companies are pushing overpowered ebikes for trail riding that are barely one step above a BSO and everyone who buys one will be searching for the closest place to ride it. Banking on the fact that riding a pricey emtb will give an experienced rider a better experience ignores how the public already polices itself in public spaces. IME, it's already clear that anything with pedals and a motor is fair game.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Where I am in Colorado, I see all sorts of poorly designed and constructed ebikes on singletrack in the Class 2 - light motorcycle range. None of which are legal, and judging by appearances only, ridden by people new to riding bikes. Just because you or I would choose a different tool for the job, don't underestimate the power of ignorance and plain old IDGAF.
> 
> Big companies are pushing overpowered ebikes for trail riding that are barely one step above a BSO and everyone who buys one will be searching for the closest place to ride it. Banking on the fact that riding a pricey emtb will give an experienced rider a better experience ignores how the public already polices itself in public spaces. IME, it's already clear that anything with pedals and a motor is fair game.


The trails I ride on I just can't see high powered e-bikes working, I mean you could ride them just not like a motorcyle as they are designed to be.

Now there are trails where they will be used by me no doubt, the hikers and horse riders that use the trails will get bikes kicked of totally.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Harryman said:


> Where I am in Colorado, I see all sorts of poorly designed and constructed ebikes on singletrack in the Class 2 - light motorcycle range. None of which are legal, and judging by appearances only, ridden by people new to riding bikes. Just because you or I would choose a different tool for the job, don't underestimate the power of ignorance and plain old IDGAF.
> 
> Big companies are pushing overpowered ebikes for trail riding that are barely one step above a BSO and everyone who buys one will be searching for the closest place to ride it. Banking on the fact that riding a pricey emtb will give an experienced rider a better experience ignores how the public already polices itself in public spaces. IME, it's already clear that anything with pedals and a motor is fair game.


What's a BSO?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Moe Ped said:


> What's a BSO?


Bike Shaped Object

I see ebikes like this "designed" for bike paths, but since they've got knobbies, they're fine offroad right? The people riding them don't seem to care they're not on full zoot emtbs, they're having too much fun.











KenPsz said:


> The trails I ride on I just can't see high powered e-bikes working, I mean you could ride them just not like a motorcyle as they are designed to be.
> 
> Now there are trails where they will be used by me no doubt, the hikers and horse riders that use the trails will get bikes kicked of totally.


So, just let people self police and let the chips fall as they may?


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Bike Shaped Object
> 
> So, just let people self police and let the chips fall as they may?


I'm not a big government control guy so yeah.

Seems to work pretty well where I live so yeah this notion of control is not for me, I know others feel differently though especially when it comes to something they dislike.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Humans are miserable failures at self policing. That method will never work. 
I found myself truly craving an E- bike recently, for the simple reason that I really like motorcycles and frankly don't think it's that different. 
I researched and e- bikes are 100% NOT legal on TX State or Austin city property with just a couple of notable exceptions, where motorcycles are also allowed. Just because it's not posted at every trail head doesn't change that fact, it's clearly stated in the laws and the law states that very fact. 
Ultimately I'm glad because the reality is that they would grow in popularity, people would break the rules, people would go faster and longer, and incidents would happen, that eventually would affect analog bikes access.
Boy I was dreaming of flying UP and down though!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> Boy I was dreaming of flying UP and down though!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


And that's where the ignorance lyes. There is no "flying up" yea you climb faster but nothing like a motorcycle. Downhill speed is twice as fast and can be done on an Ebike or regular bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Vin829 said:


> And that's where the ignorance lyes. There is no "flying up"


I beg to differ, climbing on an ebike definitely feels like I'm flying up the hill, so much so it's hard not to giggle as I'm doing it.


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> I beg to differ, climbing on an ebike definitely feels like I'm flying up the hill, so much so it's hard not to giggle as I'm doing it.


My point is you tend to go twice as fast on the downhill. Maybe it's because I'm on the new Levo SL. But I also giggle on the climbs I used to walk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Vin829 said:


> My point is you tend to go twice as fast on the downhill.


No doubt, but you also go at least twice as fast as you used to on the climbs.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Moe Ped said:


> Typical e-bike rider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess you don't realize that those people rarely get the chance to ride in dry conditions....ever been to the UK? It rains a bit there.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

richde said:


> I guess you don't realize that those people rarely get the chance to ride in dry conditions....ever been to the UK? It rains a bit there.


Of course I realize that the British Isles are a damp place, I also was impressed with the guy's bike handling skills and he had loads of good advice. I posted it because it showed that e-bikes could be ridden where you'd have to get off and carry a regular bike. They have the power to help mere mortals through tough spots. Which maybe they shouldn't be riding in the first place.

Here's a North American counterpoint; stick around to 4 minutes in where he says wet riding only works in limited areas where the trails are "designed" to be used in the rain. (Which those British trails appeared not to be!)






Yeah yeah that wasn't an e-bike. His parting passage something like: "...even better than riding when it's wet is going out and building/maintaining trails..."


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Moe Ped said:


> I posted it because it showed that e-bikes could be ridden where you'd have to get off and carry a regular bike. They have the power to help mere mortals through tough spots. Which maybe they shouldn't be riding in the first place.


That's not true, he just has good enough balance and a smooth enough pedal stroke to spin in place. It doesn't take much power to spin your tire in mud....that's why people stall out in it. :light bulb illuminates:


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

Vin829 said:


> Oh cool. I'm in San Jose and ride Henry Coe couple times a week


Go to Montebello by Stevens creek. Some long hillclimbes with tons of single track, plenty to fool around


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Vin829 said:


> And that's where the ignorance lyes. There is no "flying up" yea you climb faster but nothing like a motorcycle. Downhill speed is twice as fast and can be done on an Ebike or regular bike.


We have undulating terrain mostly and I already can maintain a pretty furious pace on them when I'm not recovering from injury as I am now. 
E- bike would add to that significantly imo.
They honestly look like a blast, figure I'd be about the same on the descents but for most of my ridiing I could maintain a solid 25% faster overall speed. 
The bummer would be, no one to ride with. I have one riding buddy that was already very powerful that went e- bike and he is knocking out 40+ miles averaging over 15mph on technical terrain per Strava. That would be my reality. 
Doesn't matter at this time however, as they are illegal everywhere I ride even though they are popping up on these trails constantly.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

KenPsz said:


> I'm not a big government control guy so yeah.
> 
> Seems to work pretty well where I live so yeah this notion of control is not for me, I know others feel differently though especially when it comes to something they dislike.


Fair enough.

The arrival of ebikes reminds me very much of the arrival of mtbs. We rode them everywhere since there weren't any rules regarding bikes on trails or anyone to tell us not to. It all worked fine in our eyes anyway until it didn't anymore. There was a tipping point where we went from too few to be noticed to being too many to ignore. Which is where we are now, in most places there are few to no ebikes on trails, legal ebikes or not. At some point there will be and in the US, it won't just be quasi EU spec emtbs like in Europe, it'll be a mix of anything with a motor and pedals and that is the real problem IMO. I'd like 250w emtbs to have access to singletrack, I'll leave which ones that are open to the land managers, but I don't want idiots on higher powered ebikes out there getting other users turned against us and trails closed.

I'm fully aware of all the laws that are supposed to regulate who can ride what where, I am and was involved in trying to make sure they make sense at the local and state level. I'm also fully cognizant that without enforcement, they are just so much arm waving, and in almost all places, there isn't any.

This is as good of a summary of how those laws are being interpreted as I've seen.

https://www.electricbike.com/how-th...38lrBqxrBNHjYcRR2RKIc-iO9ZuTwIM4CbdUDfi-61Usk

I also work closely with many of our local rangers and hear their war stories about how people act in their public spaces and I have zero faith in self policing. The fact that the industry and almost all ebike riders are disregarding this reality doesn't bode well for future or long term access. The places I know of locally where mtbs were banned in the 80's and early 90's are still closed, even though riding mtbs is one of the most popular activities here and the most powerful user group. Once it's gone, it's gone.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> No doubt, but you also go at least twice as fast as you used to on the climbs.


About 20-25% faster in real world situations. You *can* go twice as fast but you'll be pedaling a 50 lbs hunk of metal home. And that's no fun. ;-)


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> The arrival of ebikes reminds me very much of the arrival of mtbs. We rode them everywhere since there weren't any rules regarding bikes on trails or anyone to tell us not to. It all worked fine in our eyes anyway until it didn't anymore. There was a tipping point where we went from too few to be noticed to being too many to ignore. Which is where we are now, in most places there are few to no ebikes on trails, legal ebikes or not. At some point there will be and in the US, it won't just be quasi EU spec emtbs like in Europe, it'll be a mix of anything with a motor and pedals and that is the real problem IMO. I'd like 250w emtbs to have access to singletrack, I'll leave which ones that are open to the land managers, but I don't want idiots on higher powered ebikes out there getting other users turned against us and trails closed.
> 
> ...


Great points!

Here is the thing though we as bikers should be welcoming everyone not trying to actively stopping them like hikers and horse riders have done to bikers. People are going to ride e-bikes one way or another it would behoove the mtb community to bring them into the fold not ostracize them.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

RickBullottaPA said:


> About 20-25% faster in real world situations. You *can* go twice as fast but you'll be pedaling a 50 lbs hunk of metal home. And that's no fun. ;-)


Im confused by your down playing.

Here is a quote from specialized marketing

"The Turbo Levo's 565-watt Specialized 2.1 motor quadruples your effort with a smooth and natural feel at the pedals, without adding any awkward surges in power. You can get to the top of your favorite descent with just a quarter of the effort, or four-times as fast. You're in control. It's you, only faster."

Are they lying?

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Fuse6F said:


> Im confused by your down playing.
> 
> Here is a quote from specialized marketing
> 
> ...


Yes, they're lying. Or taking liberties with reality. Remember, power cuts out at about 19-20 MPH. On "real" trails, the limiting factor isn't always raw speed/power since you would run out of traction in corners or on technical terrain. In my experience, "normal" downhill times are about the same, "steep" downhill times are slower (due to motor drag), flat trails roughly 25-75% faster depending on twistiness and how hard you're pushing, moderate climbs about 25-50% faster, and steep climbs about 25% faster. Those are just averages. On a typical ride around here, I find that I cover about 25% more terrain in the same amount of time. You can push the bike harder but the battery will be toast in an hour.

Also, my FTP is in the 250-275 watts range, so they certainly aren't "quadrupling" my instantaneous effort.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Also, my FTP is in the 250-275 watts range, so they certainly aren't "quadrupling" my instantaneous effort.


Your ftp is far higher than average, for many riders 4x faster on a steep climb might be about right.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Yes, they're lying. Or taking liberties with reality. times are slower (due to motor drag), flat trails roughly 25-75% faster depending on twistiness and how hard you're pushing, moderate climbs about 25-50% faster, and steep climbs about 25% faster. Those are just averages. On a typical ride around here, I find that I cover about 25% more terrain in the same amount of time. You can push the bike harder but the battery will be toast in an hour.
> 
> Also, my FTP is in the 250-275 watts range, so they certainly aren't "quadrupling" my instantaneous effort.


it would be pretty easy to double your power. 250w from the turbo levo. 750wh battery is 3hrs. but its not 3hrs of continuous climb on a trail ride.

should be easy to blast a local trail loop pretty quick. eg. 400 to 700' climb, 5miles.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Yes, they're lying. Or taking liberties with reality. Remember, power cuts out at about 19-20 MPH. On "real" trails, the limiting factor isn't always raw speed/power since you would run out of traction in corners or on technical terrain. In my experience, "normal" downhill times are about the same, "steep" downhill times are slower (due to motor drag), flat trails roughly 25-75% faster depending on twistiness and how hard you're pushing, moderate climbs about 25-50% faster, and steep climbs about 25% faster. Those are just averages. On a typical ride around here, I find that I cover about 25% more terrain in the same amount of time. You can push the bike harder but the battery will be toast in an hour.
> 
> Also, my FTP is in the 250-275 watts range, so they certainly aren't "quadrupling" my instantaneous effort.


Actually, notice that the Specialized marketing copy is talking about climbing---"...get to the top of your favorite descent..."

A "quarter of the effort, or four-times as fast" is a bit of a stretch; 1/4 the effort is likely true but due the old "speed squared" physics thing 4x the speed won't be happening.

But half the effort and twice as fast (for climbing) would be right on the money.

At Henry W Coe SP in NorCal (which just happens to be where Specialized does a lot of their e-bike prototyping work) there's some pretty good data on Strava that's worth looking at.

A popular single track climb about 3 miles in length and a 8% average grade for analog bikes has a healthy sample size of 8400 rides by 1400 individuals with a median speed of 3.9 mph (I'm #624 @ 4.1 mph) On the median page the average exertion is 172 watts (mine was 214 watts).

Same climb but in the e-bike category there's a smaller sampling of 440 rides by 166 individuals and a median speed of 7.8 mph (exactly double!) On my e-bike I'm in the "top 10" (well, #9) with a speed of 10.9 mph and the KOM dude did it at 12.5 mph. (3X faster than normal mortals on analog) That's a good example of how e-bikes are the "great equalizer"; I'm an old fart approaching 70 and the KOM guy is a 30-something pro.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty cool info. [email protected]

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Edit: I looked it up and see the assist multiplier is based on torque sensing. Basically, more assist means less effort to get max assist from the motor. They seem to be targeting out-of-shape people, who perhaps are not confident about pedaling 50 lb bikes up hills, and being told 4x makes more sense than something like Shimano's 300% assist ratio. Means that they can put out theoretically 1/4 of the pedaling effort to cruise with a non-assisted rider, if weight, drag, and other resistance weren't considered.

Not to derail the topic, but burning question: is there an accurate the word or phrase to describe how people don't feel like giving others a respectful amount of effort to critically or analytical think in a realistic manner, because they have reason to dislike them? They may instead put out low effort to imagine all sorts of stupid unrealistic scenarios to make them look worse in their mind (assigning the stupidity in their own thoughts, as stupidity belonging to the disliked target). Bullshitting is the best I can come up with, but I feel there should be something more accurate that more vividly describes this pattern.

Captions for attached images:
Vertical/Y-axis is motor torque, and the horizontal axis is rider torque input.

Rider puts in 25 Nm of torque and gets full torque from Boost mode (70 Nm of assist), which they say is 300% assist ratio.

Shimano has simple and custom tuning available. Dynamic is more eco-conscious, and explorer is high assist power. The graphs show the curves, showing how much effort the rider needs put out to get any certain level of assist.

Last image is the "ratio" of assist you are getting, in relation to how much torque the rider is putting out. Put out more torque, and the ratio of how much the motor is working to get propulsion, compared to how much you are working, starts to decrease. The lower the point on the Y-assist, the lower the "multiplier".


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> Edit: I looked it up and see the assist multiplier is based on torque sensing. Basically, more assist means less effort to get max assist from the motor. They seem to be targeting out-of-shape people, who perhaps are not confident about pedaling 50 lb bikes up hills, and being told 4x makes more sense than something like Shimano's 300% assist ratio. Means that they can put out theoretically 1/4 of the pedaling effort to cruise with a non-assisted rider, if weight, drag, and other resistance weren't considered.
> 
> Not to derail the topic, but burning question: is there an accurate the word or phrase to describe how people don't feel like giving others a respectful amount of effort to critically or analytical think in a realistic manner, because they have reason to dislike them? They may instead put out low effort to imagine all sorts of stupid unrealistic scenarios to make them look worse in their mind (assigning the stupidity in their own thoughts, as stupidity belonging to the disliked target). Bullshitting is the best I can come up with, but I feel there should be something more accurate that more vividly describes this pattern.
> 
> ...


The stopwatch and odometer are the measures that matter. I have about 2000 miles on my current eMTB (Pivot Shuttle) and another 1200 miles on my previous one (KTM Kapoho) and almost certainly over 20000 miles on the same trails on my regular MTB(s) (I've been riding most of these same trails since 1988 ). I've also done some eMTB racing. Net/net is my data is pretty accurate and reflective of real world performance and how motor power gets translated into faster times, longer distances, and how it affects HR and human power.

On my typical 90-120 minute rides, the eMTB speeds are between 9.5 and 12.5 MPH, whereas on my regular MTB they range from 7.5 to 9.5 for the same terrain, trails, and conditions. So I was slightly off on my estimate of 20-25% - it's more like 25-30%. Close enough.

For a more extreme example: on a 1 HR eMTB race, I finished with a nearly empty battery, and I had to practically puke (think a CX race) to average about 18 MPH (slightly less than double what I could have done it human powered). My average HR was 159, which for me is pushing really hard. So using all of the battery for one hour (which would imply it was pulling nearly 500W), combined with my 250W or so, it *less than doubled* my effective speed.

Just as most 1000 HP cars don't go 2.5X as fast a most 400 HP cars, the wattage and torque numbers, while interesting, don't translate anywhere close to linearly in the real world.

YMMV. Now go ride.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

If your intent was to inspire me to look up words to describe your pattern of behavior, Rick, you were successful. I'm confused... you trying to correct something I said or just want some ears to preach to, thinking that the authority of your cycling life story earns you any of my respect?


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> If your intent was to inspire me to look up words to describe your pattern of behavior, Rick, you were successful. I'm confused... you trying to correct something I said or just want some ears to preach to, thinking that the authority of your cycling life story earns you any of my respect?


LOL. Troll filter turned to full setting. Bye.


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

Art666 said:


> I am at the point of finally getting an emtb. And probably selling Bronson.
> 
> I realized that I can do all kinds of very cool loops with emtb in my area without going to far. Its not going to replace my dirtbike, but I can almost ignore the fact that I dont have any time to ride it.
> 
> ...


I am replying to myself. Thanks to corona I got new BH Atom . After riding it few times I sold my 3 years old Bronson for more than I paid for brand new emtb.
I have way more fun riding it than my bronson. I am going on trails I never went up before, including abandoned power lines etc. I went from my house to the ocean over the mountain ridge and back. It can go up on trails I have hard time walking.
I do ride dirt bikes, so changing assist level is sort of like clutching a dirtbike.


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## fatbiker74 (Nov 18, 2014)

The former Trek executive and e-bike advocate wrote in his blog:



> Lastly I will go back to my very first point, we all need to stop worrying about convincing the haters to not be haters, it is not productive - and you can never win. So, more articles telling the ebike hater cyclist to just get over it and accept that some day their mother or they themselves will want/need one, or that more people on bikes is a good thing for many reasons, are just stirring that pot and actually counter productive to the real issues at hand.


Bit disappointing to see some here nonetheless reach for those tired arguments. Almost as if they didn't read all of his blog. 

As others have stated here already, US land mgrs (and I know many, but USFS not BLM) are concerned about the difficulties of managing this is growing issue.

The blog's two main points, to me anyway, are a) acknowledge the reality of the situation b) be civil as you strive to help all parties manage this transition.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Things that cost this much tend to be emotional purchases, hence why some brands are going the route of appealing to more primal traits that people find attractive, like aesthetics and spec measurements that hint of Olympian-like leanness.

I think deep down, people expect the same people buying super cars will be on ebikes, with the associated stereotypical behavior behind the controls. It kind of already happens with high end race bikes w/o motors (see Strav-a-holes).

The bike industry pushing the utility side of it seems to be driving acceptance, but in the end they're still out to collect checks due to how the economy is structured.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

His letter is absolutely correct. Ebikes may be ok-ish in their current form, but they will become ever more powerful and detrimental to trails. The erosion and conflict these powerful and speedy motorbikes create will reduce trail access for human powered bicycles.

Ebikes are motorbikes and should be on motorbike trails, plenty of which exist. The pushback mostly comes from the fact that motorbike trails suck...because they’re badly eroded by the power of the machines.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

People of all income brackets can get into ebiking, everything from a $500 ebike kit to a $3000+ store bought ebike. 

- Retiree's moving out of the empty nest and into condo's.

- Couples going car-less or going from 2 vehicles to one. I sold an ebike to a couple where the wife was still working and needed the car, while the husband sold his vehicle and got an ebike.

- Condo's today are being sold, in some highly populated areas, without a titled parking stall.
- Mini condo's in metropolitan areas, under 450 sq ft.

- People who have lost their license due to a doctor pulling it or a dui or multiples.

- People wanting a less impactful way of exercise.

- Delivery people. I sold a 750W "KT" kit to an UberEats a few years ago, cargo bike.

- Bike commuters, just 2 years ago I'd rarely see an ebike. Today I cant go one day without seeing atleast 2.

- Disabled people



People are becoming more aware of ebikes through all the ebike sharing companies popping up all over the place, ebike share companies like Lime Bike and B-cycle(owned by Trek) where you can rent the ebike by the minute and dump it anywhere you wish, in the river, in a pond, in the bushes, or blocking the sidewalk traffic or blocking driveways. Then of course when those same people go to their local bicycle store they see the $3000+ ebikes available for purchase. Lots of people take a lot of time before purchasing, very common to see 6m to 1yr of "research" for people to buy kits, and probably 2-4m for people to buy store ebikes. As they go onto the internet and see what else is available and at what cost it is, especially with the kits. All too common.


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## Art666 (Aug 4, 2018)

steadite said:


> His letter is absolutely correct. Ebikes may be ok-ish in their current form, but they will become ever more powerful and detrimental to trails. The erosion and conflict these powerful and speedy motorbikes create will reduce trail access for human powered bicycles.
> 
> Ebikes are motorbikes and should be on motorbike trails, plenty of which exist. The pushback mostly comes from the fact that motorbike trails suck...because they're badly eroded by the power of the machines.


Ebikes are not anywhere close in performance or power, or speed to dirt bikes. Or range for that mutter. If it was the case I would have used it as a dirt bike.
And no, emtb cant do anything on dirt bike trails. Just barely crawl on some sections.
Dirt bike trails all trashed in a place like Hollister( which sucks anyway). There are tons of great dirt bike trails, but emtbs have no place there. May be some easy trails in Moab, or Downeiville.
Great thing about emtb - I can go from house on pavement, climb 6 miles get on dirt trails, climb over ridges, drop to the ocean, explore stuff there as well, turn around, climb impossible climbs and come home. No car involved. On my regular mtb it always involves 20+ miles of driving before biking


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

And i don't think ebikes will be more powerful, there's the problem of battery life. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

The original poster has a point. The real elephant in the room is not the motor (human or mechanical). The real elephant is power and braaap. 

On an e bike I no doubt do less damage to trails and I am safer on an e bike. That is just me, grandpa here. Sensible rules guide honest people. 
There is no shortage of idiots regardless of legislation or designation. High powered e bikes will be on the trails going too fast regardless of any enacted rules. The only thing you stop with over reaction is honest people. I have encountered dirt bikes on mtb trails. 

Now horses? Them things are a real disaster on the trails and the pocket book.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

I like data. Here's some data.

https://horsegulchblog.com/2020/04/...tent-on-dirt-trails-in-counties-where-allowed


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

rod9301 said:


> And i don't think ebikes will be more powerful, there's the problem of battery life.


Battery life has everything to do with how deeply your dishcharge the battery to, the number of cycles, the age of the battery, the temperatures, the care taken in storage. Its not a matter of power damaging battery life when a battery can more then handle it. a 36V 10Ah 20A battery being used on a 20A controller would not last as long as a 72V 10Ah 100A being used at 50A, for the exact same # of discharge, depth of discharge etc etc etc, everything else being the same. Sure the size of the battery changes, the 36V 10Ah battery is super small compared to a 72V 10Ah battery as its double the length.

As for all you guys, store bought ebikes. The bicycle manufacturers want a certain look to their bicycle, keeping the battery within a certain shape and size. They have to comply with all the regulations and safety. They will keep their batteries within a certain spec for optimal motor and controller performance all to comply with whatever arbitrary wattage and speed numbers politicians put in place. You may find a battery at 36V or perhaps even 48V, but anything over that, would seem to counteract the speed legality, and the insurance the companies must pay in order to sell ebikes. The biggest cost, of course for insurance would seem to be battery pack, then the limitations the controller and any related sensors have to limit speed and power, to reduce the potential for injuries.


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## Coyotefred (Dec 21, 2016)

This is great information; thank you for posting it. I wasn't aware there had been studies as detailed as the JeffCo/Boulder County ones out there. This is exactly the kind of data that should be driving regulatory decisions on eBikes. That and some high-quality videos that could be shown to regulators showing examples of the eBikes "in action" (alongside non-eBikes) to address concerns about noise, speed, 'trail damage' etc. Having the regulators visit some trails to see this 'live' would be better, but not always realistic with busy schedules, etc. I know I was fairly hostile to the whole concept of 'ebiking' before learning more about them and correcting some of my misconceptions; I think many regulators are in the same boat initially.



RickBullottaPA said:


> I like data. Here's some data.
> 
> https://horsegulchblog.com/2020/04/...tent-on-dirt-trails-in-counties-where-allowed


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> I like data. Here's some data.
> 
> https://horsegulchblog.com/2020/04/...tent-on-dirt-trails-in-counties-where-allowed


That's a bit of a stretch to call that "data"; that is some editorialized reporting by a pro-ebike blogger.

Light on numbers, heavy on anecdotal opinions.

The section on Maricopa County AZ is interesting; the blogger headlines "zero conflicts" but then goes on to say that the official interviewed wouldn't put it in writing.

(Disclaimer; I like e-bikes---but there's 2 sides to every coin)


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> That's a bit of a stretch to call that "data"; that is some editorialized reporting by a pro-ebike blogger.
> 
> Light on numbers, heavy on anecdotal opinions.
> 
> ...


That is a valid form of data. Extremely valid. Data is not exclusively numeric.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> That is a valid form of data. Extremely valid. Data is not exclusively numeric.


So you're not seeing any bias in how Adam Howell presented his "data"?


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> So you're not seeing any bias in how Adam Howell presented his "data"?


Of course I see bias. Virtually all presentations of data are intended to support some thesis or position. Objectivity is a myth.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

RickBullottaPA said:


> Of course I see bias. Virtually all presentations of data are intended to support some thesis or position. Objectivity is a myth.


Good to hear.

At least we should both agree that this is Data:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> As for all you guys, store bought ebikes. The bicycle manufacturers want a certain look to their bicycle, keeping the battery within a certain shape and size. They have to comply with all the regulations and safety. They will keep their batteries within a certain spec for optimal motor and controller performance all to comply with whatever arbitrary wattage and speed numbers politicians put in place.


Those "store bought" ebikes are manufactured to comply with established regulations so they can be compatible (supposedly) with non-motorized humans on bike paths and trails. What wattage and speed limit would you suggest?


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I will say there is more impact from me on trails from e-bikes ... sometimes when I want to get to the spot I am working on faster, I e-bike there. I know for a fact every single local rider near me appreciates it since it means more trail being built 

As for "actual damage", no way. I rarely slide on my standard and same with my ebike. I don't peel out (class1) and I rarely ride further than I do on my standard bike. Speed on climbs is a little faster, but I am not usually racing the clock, just there to have a good time. Strangely enough, that's my philosophy when I ride standard as well. 

E-bikes don't kill trails and access, people kill trails and access ...


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Moe Ped said:


> Good to hear.
> 
> At least we should both agree that this is Data:
> View attachment 1324973


 Ha. 100%. Let's go ride.


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