# Some Lupine news 2015/2016



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Some Lupine news 2015/2016

Lupine presents its new gear usually at the "Outdoor" and the "Eurobike" fairy in Germany, taking place in July and August.

According to the Lupine forum the Betty R has slighlty improved up to 5000 lumen output (4500 lumen so far); also a Bluetooth bidirectional connection is announced, with an app for smartphones (Apple and Android mentioned) allowing settings/control and e.g. to view/alert the charge status/temperature. Control over app is optional, the standard wireless remote (on the handlebar) is preserved.
There will be no upgrade kit (regarding Bluetooth) for the older Betty R models.
(german): was so läuft - Seite 9 -

Also some minor details/design modifications, see (german): Der "alle kleine Modifikationen " Threat von Wolf -

regards

EDIT:
Also a companion to the existing USB One (Lupine Lighting Systems - Products • Accessories • USB ONE) is announced, called "USB Charger". Will enable to charge the Lupine batteries via USB, e.g. also on computers. Specifications are: running on every USB 5V slot, with up to 1A (if available). So working with many charge plugs with USB (for smartphones etc.).
was so läuft - Seite 7 -


----------



## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Being able to setup/monitor the light with a phone is a very cool feature. I see this becoming a major selling point for high-end lights in the future for those that can afford them.


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Piko has got an update, new modell will have 15W / 1500 lumen (max.)/ XML-U4 led, with a slightly changed beam geometry / lens.
was so läuft - Seite 13 - (and following posts)
2nd picture: new piko 2015/2016 ; 3rd picture: Piko current version (13W / 1200 lumen)

The Piko flashlights PTL will not get these improvements.

Eurobike fair, where all the new Lupine gear will be officially presented, starts 26. august.


----------



## pabcor (Aug 25, 2011)

New Lupines.. 1500, 3200 and 5000 lumens (Piko, Wilma and Betty)
Best lens, leds and coated glass. Remote control for all.

Bluetooth

Piko R, Wilma R and Betty R are coming up with an integrated Bluetooth Module and a Remote Control.

Thereby it is possible to control one or up to five lights directly from the handlebar - with lightning speed, without delay, without cable and without any security risk.

A special LUPINE LIGHT CONTROL APP for iOS and Android will also be available in a few weeks. This App makes it possible to adjust the lighting levels of our lamps from the smartphone, to control the headlights directly or get unique status informations.

The Piko R has been completely redesigned and is simply better at everything. It is more powerful and more efficient, thanks to newly developed high-performance optics. Above all, the lateral illumination, as well as the lighting range, were significantly improved.

The new Piko R brings huge 1500 lumens and is only a few millimeters larger than its predecessor.

But the latest generation can do even more. The Piko R has Bluetooth and can be controlled by remote control or mobile app.

Our Wilma has been completely revised. The high-quality aluminum body is now even more robust, more beautiful and above all, more functional. More cooling fins, a special anti-reflection coated front glass and the latest CREE XM-L2 U4 provide significantly more power - the latest version of Wilma produces tremendous 3200 lumens.

The Wilma R can be controlled completely via Bluetooth remote control or mobile app.
In addition, new quick releases, an improved helmet mount and an optimized headband are available for Wilma too.

In July, we already announced a new and upgraded model of our Betty R.
Even brighter, even more genius!

With a special anti-reflection coated front glass and the latest CREE XM-L2 U4 LEDs, we increased the efficiency by 12%. The Betty R now makes huge 5000 lumens.

But the real highlight of Betty R is the new Bluetooth technology.

Rotlicht
The Rotlicht comes in an optimized version. The contact surface for the seat tube has been extended. Furthermore, the rubber bands for fastening are included in two different lengths and the mounting screws come in a "Mat Black" finish.
An additional seat rail mount for the Rotlicht will be available from early October.

New Accessories
We have expanded our accessories range.
New quick release for mounting on handlebars in 25.4mm, 31.8mm and 35mm diameter.
New headbands for Piko and Wilma
New helmet mounts for Piko and Wilma

After the huge success of the USB ONE last year, there will be the USB Charger available shortly.
The USB CHARGER is, as the name already recognizes, a USB charger for Lupine batteries. The charging current is up to 1A. The perfect charger for traveling.
Availability, Brochures and Pricelists
The new products will be ready to order next week. Shipping will start end of September. We actually expect some bottlenecks on the delivery capacity of the bluetooth lights due to high demand and a limited production capacity.

While our website will be updated in the next two weeks, you can already find details to the upcoming products in our new brochure.
Orders you can place at our onlineshop or your local dealer.

http://www.lupine.de/files/document...il&utm_term=0_1a4cb296ec-50355be82a-105508129


----------



## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

Bluetooth for a light! Control it from a smartphone! That's just ridiculous. I'll stick to using the switch on the back of the light. Besides I don't need to get a smartphone either.


----------



## pabcor (Aug 25, 2011)

Smartphone to configure it, remote control to operate more safety.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I'm impressed. I drool when I think of having a helmet light that I can control from the bars. One problem though, Lupine hasn't addressed the preference some have for "neutral binned LED's". Since you've posted on this forum perhaps you've noticed that a lot of people are interested in lamps with neutral emitters. Of course the neutral lamps are a little bit less in total output but once you get used to using neutral emitters you really don't want to go back. Would be nice if Lupine offered that choice. While I love the idea of a Bluetooth controlled lamp, "Neutral LED's" trump "Bluetooth control" from my point of view. I'd like to see more brand name lamps offer the choice of emitter bin.


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

A video and some pics of the new Lupine gear at the Eurobike fair: Eurobike: Lupine 2016 - Hell, Heller, Bluetooth Betty - MTB-News.de


----------



## CrashTheDOG (Jan 4, 2004)

Any word on when these will be available from Gretna?


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> One problem though, Lupine hasn't addressed the preference some have for "neutral binned LED's". Since you've posted on this forum perhaps you've noticed that a lot of people are interested in lamps with neutral emitters.


Not my cup of tea, but Lupine has an offer of this kind, a (rechangeable) LED board with 4900K temperature, currently available only for the Betty R and Betty TL2 (=flashlight).

4900 Kelvin Option | Lupine Lighting Systems Shop

I think to remember that in the Lupine board was mentioned that such thing was also available for the Wilma as kind of special direct deal, I guess one would have to sort it out directly with Lupine (in Germany).


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

An update of the news:

- Backlight in blue edition available in limited number: Rotlicht Sonderserie auch als Blaulicht -
- Upgrade of older models of Piko/Wilma/Betty for the new "bluetooth" feature via cellphone is not possible/offered. was so läuft - Seite 15 -
- Mount for backlight on saddles coming (said "within some weeks"): was so läuft - Seite 15 -
- App for the bluetooth feature announced in the Lupine store "this week": was so läuft - Seite 16 -
- New Upgrade LED-boards for Betty/TL2/Wilma: Upgrade | Ersatzteile und Zubehör | Lupine Lighting Systems Shop


----------



## Blue Jays (Nov 28, 2005)

Lupine advised the newest Piko, Wilma, and Betty versions will be available for purchase in the United States by mid-November 2015 or so. That is great news.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Blue Jays said:


> Lupine advised the newest Piko, Wilma, and Betty versions will be available for purchase in the United States by mid-November 2015 or so. That is great news.


You know I couldn't help but notice that this is your first post. No problem there but your join date was in Nov 2005!! Whats up with that?! Ten years before a first post!... got to be some kind of record there. lol


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Blue Jays said:


> Lupine advised the newest Piko, Wilma, and Betty versions will be available for purchase in the United States by mid-November 2015 or so. That is great news.


Let's hope. What I heard from Gretna (Lupine NA) was Betty R in next week or so. Piko follows in Oct later. Wilma by November.

J.


----------



## Blue Jays (Nov 28, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> "...You know I couldn't help but notice that this is your first post. No problem there but your join date was in Nov 2005!!..."


I was biding my time to wait for a *really* crucial and pivotal topic upon which to make my debut. What could be more interesting than sweet new Lupine lights? LOL.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Blue Jays said:


> I was biding my time to wait for a *really* crucial and pivotal topic upon which to make my debut. What could be more interesting than sweet new Lupine lights? LOL.


...and since your second post is in response to my astute observation I find I cannot disagree... Now if Lupine decides to offer some of the warmer/neutral LED's with some of it's new products try not to take 10 yrs to let us all know. :ihih:


----------



## Blue Jays (Nov 28, 2005)

Good points, Cat-man-do. Lupine has an unusual product development and launch schedule, for sure. One would think the Lupine factory would be shipping tirelessly in early-September so serious riders/runners are *ready* for dark autumn?

I encountered this last year when it was *late-February* when some of their lights I wanted were finally available. Heck, at that point days were starting to lengthen again and springtime was around the corner! I simply limped along with my aging MagicShine lights to wait until now. LOL.

Looking forward to good news in the coming weeks from their HQ!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Blue Jays said:


> Good points, Cat-man-do. Lupine has an unusual product development and launch schedule, for sure. One would think the Lupine factory would be shipping tirelessly in early-September so serious riders/runners are *ready* for dark autumn?
> 
> I encountered this last year when it was *late-February* when some of their lights I wanted were finally available. Heck, at that point days were starting to lengthen again and springtime was around the corner! I simply limped along with my aging MagicShine lights to wait until now. LOL.
> 
> Looking forward to good news in the coming weeks from their HQ!


Agree. I think their launch is timed to Interbike but that doesn't help us here that want to ride at night this coming fall.

I'm pretty interested in the new Wilma at 3200 lumens with the remote. That could be a pretty interesting upgrade for me.

J.


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

2 videos of the Light Control App (on an Iphone), german:
Betty R: 



Piko: 



Announced to be available in the Apple shop in "the coming days".

Confirmed the app will be available also for android.

New saddle mount for the backlight:
manual: http://www.lupine.de/files/manuals/Sattelstrebenhalter_web.pdf
pics: Rotlicht Sattelhalter -


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Gretna Bikes website has the 2016 Betty-R 14 listed,, as well as the 2016 Piko X headlamps. No 2016 Wilma's yet.


----------



## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

CHnuschti said:


> 2 videos of the Light Control App (on an Iphone), german:
> Betty R:


Watched that video (I understand some German) and I have to say that it is very impressive. The app allows you to easily adjust the level of each mode as well as the number of modes in the mode rotation. You could very easily set up a race mode, where you have two modes such as high and medium. You can also add special modes such as a blinking mode, which would be useful if you wanted to set the light up for commuting.

There was also something about setting the low battery level indicator or perhaps a moon mode. I'm not sure what he was saying.

I don't know if the app can save a particular setup to a file which you can retrieve later, but to me that would be the next logical step.

This sets the bar pretty high, and it is definitely something I would expect to see on other premium lights in the future. Is glowworm doing this?


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

This hole thing to me is an "OMG WTF???". Its already sad how much the world relies on smart phones, but now to make a persons ability to night ride dependant on having a supported phone to be able to "program" their lights. 





All I can do is laugh. Just another way/excuse for smart phones to distract and over complicate things.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

varider said:


> Watched that video (I understand some German) and I have to say that is very impressive. The app allows you to easily adjust the level of each mode as well as the number of modes in the mode rotation. You could very easily set up a race mode, where you have two modes such as high and medium. You can also add special modes such as a blinking mode, which would be useful if you wanted to set the light up for commuting.
> 
> There was also something about setting the low battery level indicator or perhaps a moon mode. I'm not sure what he was saying.
> 
> ...


I agree. Following arcane button pushes for programming is a big pain. This is the right way to do this.

A number of micro controller suppliers are making devices that include a bunch of control circuitry as well as a whole BT radio and antenna. That makes it really a straightforward task to add BT to devices like this. Kudos to lupine for leading in this.

I *really* want a Betty.

J.


----------



## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

Beamshot comparison for the latest Lupine models available: Lupine Lighting Systems - Leuchtvergleich

Also a video compilation of beamshots, showing additionally the comparison (in the second half) between the older/previous variants of each model : 




As for the bluetooth cellphone app, I was not able to read in the Lupine forum a definitive confirmation if there will be the possibility to save different sets of settings. But IMO a "must" to offer such feature.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

All I can do is laugh. Just another way/excuse for smart phones to distract and over complicate things.[/QUOTE]

I do have to admit watching most people these days walking/driving/sometimes biking/in social situations,,,,, having there heads buried in their phones can be annoying, so I hear where your coming from tigris99. I'm guessing here that the Bluetooth programming on the 2016 Lupines are an option. I would be very surprised it they took away the ability to program from the lamp head itself like the ones I have.


----------



## rootmaster (Jun 8, 2009)

indebt said:


> All I can do is laugh. Just another way/excuse for smart phones to distract and over complicate things.


 I do have to admit watching most people these days walking/driving/sometimes biking/in social situations,,,,, having there heads buried in their phones can be annoying, so I hear where your coming from tigris99. I'm guessing here that the Bluetooth programming on the 2016 Lupines are an option. I would be very surprised it they took away the ability to program from the lamp head itself like the ones I have.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure the engineers at Lupine feel the same way, but this is just the fad in market now. It's absurd. Bluetooth connections are so finicky. The last thing I want is my battery/light function to be tied to another device that can run out of battery or stop working for a million reasons. A light is a safety device, not a toy.

Now if they could find a way to have the light read my mind,.... that would be another story........


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

rootmaster said:


> I do have to admit watching most people these days walking/driving/sometimes biking/in social situations,,,,, having there heads buried in their phones can be annoying, so I hear where your coming from tigris99. I'm guessing here that the Bluetooth programming on the 2016 Lupines are an option. I would be very surprised it they took away the ability to program from the lamp head itself like the ones I have.


I'm sure the engineers at Lupine feel the same way, but this is just the fad in market now. It's absurd. Bluetooth connections are so finicky. The last thing I want is my battery/light function to be tied to another device that can run out of battery or stop working for a million reasons. A light is a safety device, not a toy.

Now if they could find a way to have the light read my mind,.... that would be another story........[/QUOTE]

LOL!!

The Lupines can still be operated if the remote fails as the lamp heads do have a manual switch, so not a safety issue,,, not sure about the other brands but would think they would as well for that exact reason,, if not that would be a deal breaker for sure.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I'm sure the engineers at Lupine feel the same way, but this is just the fad in market now. It's absurd. Bluetooth connections are so finicky. The last thing I want is my battery/light function to be tied to another device that can run out of battery or stop working for a million reasons. A light is a safety device, not a toy.
> 
> Now if they could find a way to have the light read my mind,.... that would be another story........


 LOL!!

The Lupines can still be operated if the remote fails as the lamp heads do have a manual switch, so not a safety issue,,, not sure about the other brands but would think they would as well for that exact reason,, if not that would be a deal breaker for sure.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Bluetooth LE if implemented properly, is a very reliable connection. BTLE peripherals can operate for like up to a year or so on a coin cell. So this is not the same BT as first it came out. A lot of the chips to support the BT radio that are integrated with the microcontrollers are extremely robust. I have a HRM and a bunch of speed cadence sensors that operate easily for a year or more on a CR2032 cell AND have been operating daily for that same period. So this is a good choice.

One can buy a very complete microcontroller including the full BT stack, ARM CPU, and loads of IO that is pretty much a standalone BT device and device controller all in one chip for $6-9 OEM pricing in about 5K quantity. For this, that means that Lupine probably can add this functionality for an additional cost of about $5 and get the BT functionality for free. That's a great bargain and lots of value add that can be had for very low costs and some programming.

I'm in for a Betty R. I was going to wait the new Wilma R but I needed it now, and hopefully with the light cannon that this thing is, I'll not upgrading for a good long time. Too, the Betty head is marginally bigger than the Wilma head so there is not much size difference either. I'm really looking forward to the handlebar control and the ease of setting up the programming modes via something more human friendly than stupid button pushes.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Don't know whats up with the (quote's) above as their showing my name on rootmaster's quote and his name on mine and a mix of both.

JohnJ80 Have you spoken to Bill or Dan yet to confirm the availability of the new Betty-R? Are you planning on putting the Betty on your lid?


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> Don't know whats up with the (quote's) above as their showing my name on rootmaster's quote and his name on mine and a mix of both.
> 
> JohnJ80 Have you spoken to Bill or Dan yet to confirm the availability of the new Betty-R? Are you planning on putting the Betty on your lid?


Yep. Spoke to them a few days ago. They have Betty's in stock but not too many. Expecting Wilmas by month end or in early November, Pikos I think they have now or will have shortly.

I'll be using it on the bars for both road and fatbike (winter) usage. I have a 1200 lumen Piko for the helmet and/or a Wilma 2400 lumen light. I may sell both however (probably will) and upgrade to the newer Piko.

Really a limited time to use helmet lights here - especially bright ones. The lights attract a lot of bugs and I can't stand that. We need a good hard frost or two and then the helmet lights will be fine.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Yep. Spoke to them a few days ago. They have Betty's in stock but not too many. Expecting Wilmas by month end or in early November, Pikos I think they have now or will have shortly.
> 
> I'll be using it on the bars for both road and fatbike (winter) usage. I have a 1200 lumen Piko for the helmet and/or a Wilma 2400 lumen light. I may sell both however (probably will) and upgrade to the newer Piko.
> 
> ...


 I often forget about riders in the southern area's of me and the bug issues you guys have with helmet lights. Where I am,, in the summer months it's light out till 10:30 so very rarely a night ride, and in the winter months no bugs because of the cold. A can't imagine what it must be like other than riding in a snow storm for me in comparison,(maybe a slight exaggeration).

I'm thinking you will need the power of you Wilma to compete with that new Betty JJ.


----------



## pabcor (Aug 25, 2011)

New Lupine Rotlicht mount


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I often forget about riders in the southern area's of me and the bug issues you guys have with helmet lights. Where I am,, in the summer months it's light out till 10:30 so very rarely a night ride, and in the winter months no bugs because of the cold. A can't imagine what it must be like other than riding in a snow storm for me in comparison,(maybe a slight exaggeration).
> 
> I'm thinking you will need the power of you Wilma to compete with that new Betty JJ.


I'm up here in MN where it's been warm. As long at the temp is above about 50-55F, you get bugs in the Northwoods.



pabcor said:


> New Lupine Rotlicht mount
> 
> View attachment 1021510


I think Lupine screwed up this mount. It doesn't look possible to have a seat bag with this. The mount needed to push the light aft a bit instead of occupying expensive real estate right under the seat. This is a fail as far as I'm concerend especially since the Lupine mount doesn't look like it would work well mounted to a chainstay. Otherwise, it's a great light but extremely limited mount options. That's really unlike Lupine. Usually they have a lot of ways to mount their lights - at least on the front.


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

I dont think I would use that tail light mount under the seat on the rails. I would use the seatpost mount or even mount it below the seatpost collar on the seat tube area of my frame. Depends on your frame for this type of mount though. Lupine says more mounts coming on the lupinenorthamerica site, so we will see if more come out. Obviously you could rig up a quick mount to your pack, seatbag, or back of helmet in short order if needed. When it comes to mounting lights sometimes you can come up with better ideas than what is intended from the light manufacturer.


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

As far as the new Lupines go, I think they are really nice, though I dont have a smart phone. I guess you can program it from a computer or tablet too as well as manually. 5,000 lumens Betty is just sick lol. I would like to see them offer neutral tints as the 6000k that Lupine uses isnt my preference. I like anywhere from 4000k-5000k. I really like my Nitecore MT G2 flashlight which at 5000k I consider on the border of neutral and cool. At the same time I love my warmer 4,400k zebralight which I can detect a tiny bit of rose coloring in the beam, but it makes the colors look vibrant. If Lupine offered neutral tints then I wouldnt have anything left to fault them on and might even sell my old lupines for the new stuff. I realize some people are happy with the 6000k color, but it's just my preference.


----------



## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

JohnJ80 said:


> I think Lupine screwed up this mount. It doesn't look possible to have a seat bag with this.


CatEye is selling identical mount as an option for long time BTW. In some cases, this is very good solution: for example, if rack-mounted bag is obstructing the light on the seatpost...


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

MaximusHQ said:


> I dont think I would use that tail light mount under the seat on the rails. I would use the seatpost mount or even mount it below the seatpost collar on the seat tube area of my frame. Depends on your frame for this type of mount though. Lupine says more mounts coming on the lupinenorthamerica site, so we will see if more come out. Obviously you could rig up a quick mount to your pack, seatbag, or back of helmet in short order if needed. When it comes to mounting lights sometimes you can come up with better ideas than what is intended from the light manufacturer.


Below the seat collar starts to have a lot of stuff in the way like tires, chainstays etc... depending on the bike - so you can't count on it. Too, when things start to get too low on the seatpost and if they are wide enough, they can interfere with your legs (problem for me).

What I would have liked to see Lupine do is to have it mount to the seat rails in back and then go horizontal and then down. Just leave enough room for a seat bag (most don't go aft of the edge of the seat). Or make a narrower mount so it would fit on a chainstay like other lights I have.

J.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Lupine and BT tech*

I think Lupine has correctly assumed that anyone willing to lay the money out for one of their premium bike lights ( > $700 ) also already owns a phone with BT capability. I like the idea of having a lamp that is capable of being programmed from the phone. Like most people I always bring my phone with me anyway whenever I ride. Not a big deal anyway since once I have the settings I want dialed in ( might take a couple rides to do that ) I'm done.

And speaking of BT programmability, I WISH the Gloworm lamps had that option rather than the "button" programming. The reason being is that when using the Gloworms, "If you press the mode buttons too quickly ( while changing modes ) the lamp will accidentally enter the program mode". This of course is a PITA and one of the few short comings of the newer GW lamps. Of course as long as you remember not to rapid fire the remote button you're fine. Still, there are times when you just forget.

Okay so you don't own a smart phone...yet...or perhaps don't want one. That's fine. If you can't afford the data plans..okay, I understand. The good news is you don't have to purchase a data plan to own a smart phone. Likely you can pick up a used smart phone ( or buy a cheap Chinese smart phone ) for super cheap. Even if not with a phone ( data ) plan the S-phone will still operate online with Wi-Fi which will allow you to download any needed apps. You can also download a lot of OTHER apps as well, including those for navigation. Some of those apps will even let you down load complete maps so you won't even need to be on-line to navigate. Yeah, it's doing it the hard way but it can work. A used ( or cheap-o Chinese ) smart phone with BT ( and Wi-fi ) shouldn't cost a boat load of money. I've seen used smart phones that some people are almost giving away.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> I think Lupine has correctly assumed that anyone willing to lay the money out for one of their premium bike lights ( > $700 ) also already owns a phone with BT capability. I like the idea of having a lamp that is capable of being programmed from the phone. Like most people I always bring my phone with me anyway whenever I ride. Not a big deal anyway since once I have the settings I want dialed in ( might take a couple rides to do that ) I'm done.
> 
> And speaking of BT programmability, I WISH the Gloworm lamps had that option rather than the "button" programming. The reason being is that when using the Gloworms, "If you press the mode buttons too quickly ( while changing modes ) the lamp will accidentally enter the program mode". This of course is a PITA and one of the few short comings of the newer GW lamps. Of course as long as you remember not to rapid fire the remote button you're fine. Still, there are times when you just forget.
> 
> Okay so you don't own a smart phone...yet...or perhaps don't want one. That's fine. If you can't afford the data plans..okay, I understand. The good news is you don't have to purchase a data plan to own a smart phone. Likely you can pick up a used smart phone ( or buy a cheap Chinese smart phone ) for super cheap. Even if not with a phone ( data ) plan the S-phone will still operate online with Wi-Fi which will allow you to download any needed apps. You can also download a lot of OTHER apps as well, including those for navigation. Some of those apps will even let you down load complete maps so you won't even need to be on-line to navigate. Yeah, it's doing it the hard way but it can work. A used ( or cheap-o Chinese ) smart phone with BT ( and Wi-fi ) shouldn't cost a boat load of money. I've seen used smart phones that some people are almost giving away.


The number of people who have access to a BT enabled smartphone is a high percentage of the population. That, coupled with the insanely cheap cost of a CPU that has a BT radio on board and has enough IO to run the rest of the product should almost become a defacto feature set on almost anything like this.

There is *always* someone who will chime in that they have a 10 button flip phone and don't plan on changing. Okay..... but that's probably asking the other 80+% of the population to bend to their wishes. As you go younger and as you go more affluent (the people that buy this stuff), the percentages are going to be even higher. I doubt that there is anything more than a very small percentage of users who would not buy such a product just beause it's programming was smartphone based. My sense is that the people that speak against this wouldn't have bought it anyway.

J.


----------



## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

You may be able to use a cheap android tablet such as this

9" Google Android 4 4 KitKat Tablet PC A33 Quad Core HD 8GB Dual Camera Wi Fi | eBay

I have no idea if this particular tablet actually works.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

varider said:


> You may be able to use a cheap android tablet such as this
> 
> 9" Google Android 4 4 KitKat Tablet PC A33 Quad Core HD 8GB Dual Camera Wi Fi | eBay
> 
> I have no idea if this particular tablet actually works.


Is the app available in either the iPhone or Android app store yet?

J


----------



## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Is the app available in either the iPhone or Android app store yet?
> 
> J


I don't see it in the google play store
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=lupine light&c=apps&hl=en


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

Well not that I am interested in buying another Lupine anyway right now, but I do have tablets with Bluetooth, but a ten inch tablet isn't the best option for handlebar mount lol. Maybe I am just being stubborn and cheap when it comes to smart phones I guess. It's the pricey data plan that bugs me. I can find something better to do with that money every month like buy more lights lol. Right now I buy a twenty dollar tracfone card every two months and I'm good and use a five dollar cell phone. I have a Garmin edge GPS for logging my rides on my bike and my car already has GPS so that part of a smart phone doesn't do much for me so it's hard to justify monthly costs. Buying a cheap Bluetooth phone without the data plan is a good suggestion though.


----------



## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

The one thing that you have to be careful of is that bluetooth has separate parts called profiles that each do specific things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bluetooth_profiles

People that are interesting in using the app with a non-phone will have to make sure that their device actually has the specific profile that Lupine is using. It may or not be an issue. It probably won't be an issue if you have an iphone.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

varider said:


> The one thing that you have to be careful of is that bluetooth has separate parts called profiles that each do specific things:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bluetooth_profiles
> 
> People that are interesting in using the app with a non-phone will have to make sure that their device actually has the specific profile that Lupine is using. It may or not be an issue. It probably won't be an issue if you have an iphone.


It may match one of the BT profiles, but it's still going to have application dependent stuff going on (Application layer). So you'll still need to run the application from Lupine.

J.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

*Any Betty R owners tempted by the Cateye Volt 6000?*

My Betty R has an annoying tendency to step down in power relatively quickly when the airflow is insufficient in warmer weather. I understand that this is a thermal protection feature but when I'm picking my way down a hair-raising descent the last thing I want is less light. Consequently, the new Volt 6000 intrigues me due to its built-in cooling fan. Having the extra lumens would be a nice bonus as well!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

;


stu06 said:


> My Betty R has an annoying tendency to step down in power relatively quickly when the airflow is insufficient in warmer weather. I understand that this is a thermal protection feature but when I'm picking my way down a hair-raising descent the last thing I want is less light. Consequently, the new Volt 6000 intrigues me due to its built-in cooling fan. Having the extra lumens would be a nice bonus as well!


So you are going down slow at full out on the Betty?

J.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> ;
> 
> So you are going down slow at full out on the Betty?
> 
> J.


Yes, I unfortunately need A LOT of light to see clearly at night. When I enter a movie theater after the house lights have dimmed I can't see anything and have to hold my wife's shoulder. Pretty pathetic!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

stu06 said:


> Yes, I unfortunately need A LOT of light to see clearly at night. When I enter a movie theater after the house lights have dimmed I can't see anything and have to hold my wife's shoulder. Pretty pathetic!


Got it. Night vision is not your thing, I guess. The Betty has an awful lot of light.

Maybe you'd be better of with two Wilma's at 3200 lumens each. They are not that much smaller in volume than a Betty but significantly less power being dissipated in that same volume.

J.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> Got it. Night vision is not your thing, I guess. The Betty has an awful lot of light.
> 
> Maybe you'd be better of with two Wilma's at 3200 lumens each. They are not that much smaller in volume than a Betty but significantly less power being dissipated in that same volume.
> 
> J.


Now THAT'S thinking outside of the box! Thanks for the suggestion. I am interested, however, in seeing beam shots of the Cateye. I read that the Cob LED technology allows for a wider-angle beam which is what I prefer on the bar. Hopefully MTBR will test the Cateye in their light shootout this year.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

stu06 said:


> Yes, I unfortunately need A LOT of light to see clearly at night. When I enter a movie theater after the house lights have dimmed I can't see anything and have to hold my wife's shoulder. Pretty pathetic!


I don't think I'd use the word, "pathetic" but from what you have described you have a very serious condition. If you already haven't done so you need to consult an ophthalmologist. Your condition might be treatable.

Personally I have very good night vision but with my last examination the Doctor told me I have the starting stages of cataracts. Not surprising to me as my father had cataracts as well. He did tell me it was nothing to worry about at the time and that most people show the same signs. ( I'm in my 60's )

It can't hurt to read up on your type of vision problem. The web is full of information.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Just a heads up for the Betty owners who prefer a neutral tint. Dan from Gretna bikes just confirmed they will have 4900K boards in stock next week due to the interest they have had from owners of Lupine lights. 

Stu06 did you order yours yet??


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Just a heads up !for the Betty owners who prefer a neutral tint. Dan from Gretna bikes just confirmed they will have 4900K boards in stock next week due to the interest they have had from owners of Lupine lights.
> 
> Stu06 did you order yours yet??


I think you know me pretty well! Not yet, but I'll check their website to see if they're accepting pre-orders. I'll report back after I get them!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

What's the tint on the Betty now? Mine looks pretty neutral (i.e. around 5000k or so). Is that for the upgrade board or what is shipping in Bettys now?

J.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> What's the tint on the Betty now? Mine looks pretty neutral (i.e. around 5000k or so). Is that for the upgrade board or what is shipping in Bettys now?
> 
> J.


The latest Bettys are 6000K stock, although I believe you can order the 4900K as an option. The 4900K is for the upgrade.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> I think you know me pretty well! Not yet, but I'll check their website to see if they're accepting pre-orders. I'll report back after I get them!


 Sometimes it may take a lot longer waiting for a new, or (Special) order to show up on their website. If you want it sooner than later I would either email Dan, or call him to place your order. If not listed on website it will need to be ordered over the phone. Over the years this is what I have done at times to speed up the process.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> Sometimes it may take a lot longer waiting for a new, or (Special) order to show up on their website. If you want it sooner than later I would either email Dan, or call him to place your order. If not listed on website it will need to be ordered over the phone. Over the years this is what I have done at times to speed up the process.


Hmm. I just got the new Betty this year (several weeks ago). It sure doesn't look that blue to me. Looks much more like the 5000K light bulbs I have from Phillips in some places in my house.

I will say this, though - the 2016 Betty is silly bright at 5000 lumens. The new Wilma would have been enough, but looks like they made the Wilma slightly larger so there isn't much of a size difference between the two anymore.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Hmm. I just got the new Betty this year (several weeks ago). It sure doesn't look that blue to me. Looks much more like the 5000K light bulbs I have from Phillips in some places in my house.
> 
> I will say this, though - the 2016 Betty is silly bright at 5000 lumens. The new Wilma would have been enough, but looks like they made the Wilma slightly larger so there isn't much of a size difference between the two anymore.
> 
> J.


 My understanding is the new Betty-R comes with the XM-L2 U-4 leds. I believe those are 6000K boards. I'm not clear that Lupine is sending the Betty's with the 4900K boards unless requested.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> My understanding is the new Betty-R comes with the XM-L2 U-4 leds. I believe those are 6000K boards. I'm not clear that Lupine is sending the Betty's with the 4900K boards unless requested.


I'm not disagreeing at all. It's just that I don't think my Betty LEDs look that blue. Maybe mine somehow is 4900K. I have good color/hue discrimination as an aptitude and it really looks to me to be very similar to the 5000K LED A19 lights one gets at Home Depot for your house. I haven't compared it to some 5000K reference or anything like that.

All of the LEDs are color binned anyhow. It all depend on what Lupine is asking for from their supplier.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> I'm not disagreeing at all. It's just that I don't think my Betty LEDs look that blue. Maybe mine somehow is 4900K. I have good color/hue discrimination as an aptitude and it really looks to me to be very similar to the 5000K LED A19 lights one gets at Home Depot for your house. I haven't compared it to some 5000K reference or anything like that.
> 
> All of the LEDs are color binned anyhow. It all depend on what Lupine is asking for from their supplier.
> 
> J.


 My older Betty-R's are using XM-L U2 emitters not 100% sure on the K rating but I thought also around 6000K. I agree with you that although a white light I find them warmer than my old betty which was using the XPG-R5's. You may have a better knowledge than me in what you are seeing. At the end of the day the question is,,,, Are you happy with your Betty-R???? I already know the answer lol.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> My older Betty-R's are using XM-L U2 emitters not 100% sure on the K rating but I though also around 6000K. I agree with you that although a white light I find them warmer than my old betty which was using the XPG-R5's. You may have a better knowledge than me in what you are seeing. At the end of the day the question is,,,, Are you happy with your Betty-R???? I already know the answer lol.


Yeah, I am happy with it. I bought it primarily for the remote control because I'm using it on my road bike at speed in hilly areas. The Betty-R was out first and I knew that 5000 lumens was almost certainly over the top end of what I needed in brightness so I wouldn't be buying up in a year (again). In all practicality, the Wilma-R at 3400 lumens is probably just right but it's just about the same size as the Betty-R and it wasn't available when I needed it.

The second thing was that I needed a bit more than my Wilma 2400 provided so an upgrade was probably in the cards.

The remote is super. At a 30mph descent, I *love* not having to reach for the light to turn the brightness up or down for traffic or terrain. I just move my thumb and I'm good. Too, the set up with the smartphone app is really nice. Makes it super easy.

But the 5000 lumens is overkill. I find that I have my light set up for roughly doubling of light at each of three button pushes - 1200, 2600 and 5000. That correlates well with how we *see* light with the human eye too. I think that the Wilma-R is probably the perfect light.

What I think is deficient about the new remote set up with the Lupine lights is that there needs to be a UI where you can have a dim and bright setting then a hold the button setting where it goes to a predetermined brightness. I'd alternately have that long press setting be either the (a) center led for things like camping, (b) full bright at 5000 lumens or (c) flashing. I'd set it up for two brightness levels on the normal press so it would essentially alternate from high beam to low beam. Then the long press would go to one of the three modes listed above. Something like that would be the icing on the cake. Hopefully, them made these lights so they are software upgradeable so that when they figure out what I just asked for, they can implement with a field update.

Does anyone know what the upgrade light board to the Wilma 2400 would do in terms of light output?

If anyone wants a Wilma 1500 lumen light, I have one to sell and it would be reasonable.

J.


----------



## ab138501 (Nov 6, 2009)

The Wilma 2400 runs at 28 watts when it's on the max setting. The latest Wilma R 3200 also runs at 28 watts max.

That means that, theoretically, the Wilma 2400 will put out close to 3200 lumens after being upgraded with the latest upgrade package that will eventually be available at Wilma LED Upgrade "Switch at Lamphead" and AR Frontcap, wilma-upgrade-lens-switch-LED-lamphead - GRETNA BIKES.com LLC, LUPINE North America.

The Wilma 1200/1300/1500 versions maxed out at 19 watts. After the latest upgrade, the 19 watt versions of the Wilma will output approximately 2300 lumens.


----------



## ab138501 (Nov 6, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Does anyone know what the upgrade light board to the Wilma 2400 would do in terms of light output?
> 
> J.


The Wilma 2400 runs at 28 watts when it's on the max setting. The latest Wilma R 3200 also runs at 28 watts max.

That means that, theoretically, the Wilma 2400 will put out close to 3200 lumens after being upgraded with the latest upgrade package that will eventually be available at Wilma LED Upgrade "Switch at Lamphead" and AR Frontcap, wilma-upgrade-lens-switch-LED-lamphead - GRETNA BIKES.com LLC, LUPINE North America.

The Wilma 1200/1300/1500 versions maxed out at 19 watts. After the latest upgrade, the 19 watt versions of the Wilma will output approximately 2300 lumens.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cool - excellent. I'll upgrade it. I have it on my fatbike for beach and snow riding at night. That would work well.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> I think you know me pretty well! Not yet, but I'll check their website to see if they're accepting pre-orders. I'll report back after I get them!


 Hey stu06,,, just checking to see what the word is? I was looking on Gretna's website and only see the XM-L2 U-4 upgrade board for the Wilma,,, nothing else for any light.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Hey stu06,,, just checking to see what the word is? I was looking on Gretna's website and only see the XM-L2 U-4 upgrade board for the Wilma,,, nothing else for any light.


Nothing yet. I think Gretna's "It'll be in next week" is akin to a fine restaurant stating "The wait is 20 minutes." I'm losing interest.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> Nothing yet. I think Gretna's "It'll be in next week" is akin to a fine restaurant stating "The wait is 20 minutes." I'm losing interest.


Hey stu06, I know you have been loosing some interest waiting for the new 4900K boards to arrive at Gretna,,, I thought I'd give you a heads up anyways as their now in stock!!! If interested just click on the (upgrades) ikon. Cheers!!


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> Hey stu06, I know you have been loosing some interest waiting for the new 4900K boards to arrive at Gretna,,, I thought I'd give you a heads up anyways as their now in stock!!! If interested just click on the (upgrades) ikon. Cheers!!


Anyone know if there is any chance that Lupine will include a choice of neutral tint ( 4900K board ) for the new Wilma-R?

When Lupine first announced it was offering a choice on emitter tint I was thrilled. Sadly the Wilma-R was not included for some reason. I was actually considering buying a Wilma-R since I thought it might make the perfect helmet lamp. Yeah, I'd have to lay down some cash but for the perfect helmet lamp ( with wireless remote and 3200 lumen ) I figured it would be worth it.

Not going to go that route though unless I can buy it with the neutral boards.

And now for a dumb question: If the battery in the remote goes out while on a ride can you still control the lamp from the lamp head?


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Anyone know if there is any chance that Lupine will include a choice of neutral tint ( 4900K board ) for the new Wilma-R?
> 
> When Lupine first announced it was offering a choice on emitter tint I was thrilled. Sadly the Wilma-R was not included for some reason. I was actually considering buying a Wilma-R since I thought it might make the perfect helmet lamp. Yeah, I'd have to lay down some cash but for the perfect helmet lamp ( with wireless remote and 3200 lumen ) I figured it would be worth it.
> 
> ...


 Yes the lamp heads can be controlled without the remote as they still have a control button on the lamp head itself.

Sorry Cat I wish I had the news you wanted for the new Wilma, but so far Dan at Gretna disclosed neutral boards for the Betty-R and Piko. Would the Piko interest you or are you lusting for the Wilma to much??


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> ....Sorry Cat I wish I had the news you wanted for the new Wilma, but so far Dan at Gretna disclosed neutral boards for the Betty-R and Piko. Would the Piko interest you or are you lusting for the Wilma to much??


Thanks for the feedback indebt. Nope, the Piko not enough output and the Betty-R is overkill ( both in lumen and in price ). The Wilma-R ( with neutral board ) might have been the sweet spot. Makes no sense why the Wilma-R would not be included with a neutral board option. If a company is going to offer neutral boards it makes no sense not to include your most popular lamp. If I didn't know any better I would swear they are doing this just so I won't buy one.

Anyway, FWIW I'm in the market for a full powered neutral XM-L2 or XP-L HI quad set-up for the helmet. Can't be too heavy though. Wireless remote would be sweet but weight, beam pattern and output (2400-3000 Neutral LED lumen ) are the "must have's"

I might have gone for the DiNotte quad if they offered a neutral option and stayed with the original optics.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Thanks for the feedback indebt. Nope, the Piko not enough output and the Betty-R is overkill ( both in lumen and in price ). The Wilma-R ( with neutral board ) might have been the sweet spot. Makes no sense why the Wilma-R would not be included with a neutral board option. If a company is going to offer neutral boards it makes no sense not to include your most popular lamp. If I didn't know any better I would swear they are doing this just so I won't buy one.
> 
> Anyway, FWIW I'm in the market for a full powered neutral XM-L2 or XP-L HI quad set-up for the helmet. Can't be too heavy though. Wireless remote would be sweet but weight, beam pattern and output (2400-3000 Neutral LED lumen ) are the "must have's"
> 
> I might have gone for the DiNotte quad if they offered a neutral option and stayed with the original optics.


 I've sent out emails to Dan at Gretna about the Wilma as well as Full-Beam/MyTinySun to see if there are neutral tint options for you. I'll keep you posted when I hear back. Cheers!!

That Dinotte Quad looks heavy (218grams) if I read the specs right. Don't think you would want that on your lid.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> I've sent out emails to Dan at Gretna about the Wilma as well as Full-Beam/MyTinySun to see if there are neutral tint options for you. I'll keep you posted when I hear back. Cheers!!
> 
> * That Dinotte Quad looks heavy (218grams) if I read the specs right. Don't think you would want that on your lid*.


Not sure but I think the 218 grams _might_ be the weight with battery. Gosh I wish I owned my own scale.  Doesn't matter anyway because DiNotte doesn't do neutral LED's and they did change the optics on the XML-4. ( notice the little circles on the lenses ) I think the newer optics create a wider beam pattern but I've not confirmed that.

The quad Solarstorm XT40 I now use is not too heavy for helmet use but it's a cheap Chinese lamp and output is limited to about 1500-1800 lumen. It's fine for now but I could wish for another 500-1000 lumen off the lid ( with the same beam pattern ).

Let me know what the Lupine people say about a neutral board for the new Wilma-R.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Not sure but I think the 218 grams _might_ be the weight with battery. Gosh I wish I owned my own scale.  Doesn't matter anyway because DiNotte doesn't do neutral LED's and they did change the optics on the XML-4. ( notice the little circles on the lenses ) I think the newer optics create a wider beam pattern but I've not confirmed that.
> 
> The quad Solarstorm XT40 I now use is not too heavy for helmet use but it's a cheap Chinese lamp and output is limited to about 1500-1800 lumen. It's fine for now but I could wish for another 500-1000 lumen off the lid ( with the same beam pattern ).
> 
> Let me know what the Lupine people say about a neutral board for the new Wilma-R.


 I just received a response from Dan at Gretna. Lupine Germany is have difficulty keeping up with demands on the Wilma-R that they haven't had time for 4900K boards. He couldn't confirm if and when Lupine would have these available but did confirm one could order the Piko wth 4900K board. My best guess is they will have this option when Lupine catches their breath as they clearly are listening to their customers with the other two lamps already.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Hey stu06, I know you have been loosing some interest waiting for the new 4900K boards to arrive at Gretna,,, I thought I'd give you a heads up anyways as their now in stock!!! If interested just click on the (upgrades) ikon. Cheers!!


Hey Indebt,

Thanks for the heads up! I went ahead and ordered the upgrade. I'll let you know if it was money well-spent!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> Hey Indebt,
> 
> Thanks for the heads up! I went ahead and ordered the upgrade. I'll let you know if it was money well-spent!


 Your welcome!! I was close to pulling the trigger on a couple boards myself today,,,,, but between the brutal Canadian dollar and been off work the past three months trying to heal up I decided I better not. Looking forward to your opinion.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> I just received a response from Dan at Gretna. *Lupine Germany is have difficulty keeping up with demands on the Wilma-R that they haven't had time for 4900K boards.* He couldn't confirm if and when Lupine would have these available but did confirm one could order the Piko wth 4900K board. My best guess is they will have this option when Lupine catches their breath as they clearly are listening to their customers with the other two lamps already.


Yeah, well it doesn't make sense to me. If they are having trouble keeping with demand that means the product is selling and they need to manufacture more parts etc. All they have to do is order some boards with the same neutral LED's as the others. Whats' so hard about that? If the Chinese can do it why can't Lupine?...

That said the decision to "NOT" make neutral boards for the Wilma-R from the git-go was a poor business decision and makes no sense. This leaves the present Wilma owners ( or potential Wilma-R owners ) feeling like, _"Someone is pouring a warm yellow liquid down their leg"_ and then telling them when the "yellow rain" stops they will try to get around to helping them out...maybe...In the mean time it's, "Get to the back of the line and wait for your number to be called". :nonod: Somehow I thought Lupine was better than that. 

Anyway, like you said, by the time they decide to "catch their breath" it's quite possible other companies ( including the Chinese ) will produce a product that could be what I ( and others ) are looking for ( and likely cost a lot less ). A lamp with duel neutral XHP-50's could have a 3000 lumen output without any problems at all. Sooner or later someone will start using these and my guess by next year I expect to see more super-bright / affordable "Neutral LED" helmet lamp options.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah, well it doesn't make sense to me. If they are having trouble keeping with demand that means the product is selling and they need to manufacture more parts etc. All they have to do is order some boards with the same neutral LED's as the others. Whats' so hard about that? If the Chinese can do it why can't Lupine?...
> 
> That said the decision to "NOT" make neutral boards for the Wilma-R from the git-go was a poor business decision and makes no sense. This leaves the present Wilma owners ( or potential Wilma-R owners ) feeling like, _"Someone is pouring a warm yellow liquid down their leg"_ and then telling them when the "yellow rain" stops they will try to get around to helping them out...maybe...In the mean time it's, "Get to the back of the line and wait for your number to be called". :nonod: Somehow I thought Lupine was better than that.
> 
> Anyway, like you said, by the time they decide to "catch their breath" it's quite possible other companies ( including the Chinese ) will produce a product that could be what I ( and others ) are looking for ( and likely cost a lot less ). A lamp with duel neutral XHP-50's could have a 3000 lumen output without any problems at all. Sooner or later someone will start using these and my guess by next year I expect to see more super-bright / affordable "Neutral LED" helmet lamp options.


 For some reason I thought Lupine made the led boards in house? I'm probably wrong on that but i'll try to confirm.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Your welcome!! I was close to pulling the trigger on a couple boards myself today,,,,, but between the brutal Canadian dollar and been off work the past three months trying to heal up I decided I better not. Looking forward to your opinion.


Hey Indebt,

Upgraded my Bettys with the 4900K boards and I'm pleased to report that it's awesome. The neutral tint is much easier on the eyes and the glare issue has been virtually eliminated. Now when descending at full chat I have a much better view of the trail details with significantly less eye strain. Hope your rehab goes well!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> Hey Indebt,
> 
> Upgraded my Bettys with the 4900K boards and I'm pleased to report that it's awesome. The neutral tint is much easier on the eyes and the glare issue has been virtually eliminated. Now when descending at full chat I have a much better view of the trail details with significantly less eye strain. Hope your rehab goes well!


 Glad to hear!! How do you find the actual output compared to before? You had two different powered Betty's right? What leds were in each before,,,, if you know?


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> For some reason I thought Lupine made the led boards in house? I'm probably wrong on that but i'll try to confirm.


Doubt it. But if they are, they shouldn't be. There are no doubt plenty of local small contract assemblers that would do it better and cheaper than Lupine could. Very few companies, even for small volume, assemble their own stuff anymore.

J.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Glad to hear!! How do you find the actual output compared to before? You had two different powered Betty's right? What leds were in each before,,,, if you know?


I have the 3600-lumen (XM-L) and 4500-lumen (XML-2) models. The increase from 3600 to 4400 lumens is definitely noticeable; the increase from 4500 to 500 is very slight. But it's difficult to assess because of the different tints. I do notice, however, that I'm descending faster than before. I think I've finally reached lighting nirvana.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

stu06 said:


> I have the 3600-lumen (XM-L) and 4500-lumen (XML-2) models. The increase from 3600 to 4400 lumens is definitely noticeable; the increase from 4500 to 500 is very slight. But it's difficult to assess because of the different tints. I do notice, however, that I'm descending faster than before. I think I've finally reached lighting nirvana.


LOL. Hard to believe the Lumen Wars are coming to a close.

I bought a Betty this year because it was available before the new Wilma and because I wanted to get out of the annual upgrade cycle. Also, the new Wilma is approaching the Betty size, so I figured I might as well pony up for the top end and be done. 5000 lumens is a lot of light and I can safely say that I have exceeded what I see as the max I need. Truly, I think that the 3400 lumen Wilma is probably about it.

But I have to say, the remote capabilities of the light and the ability to configure it with a smartphone app is brilliant. I could never remember the sequences to program with button and this app makes is so much easier.

J.


----------



## hamsey (Nov 5, 2015)

Will a Wilma and Piko go out of sequence using the bluetooth button? There is mention of them going out of sequence in this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/2016-gemini-lights-994138-4.html Post # 84. This happened with the older lights. Checking to see if it is an issue with the new lights.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> I have the 3600-lumen (XM-L) and 4500-lumen (XML-2) models. The increase from 3600 to 4400 lumens is definitely noticeable; the increase from 4500 to 500 is very slight. But it's difficult to assess because of the different tints. I do notice, however, that I'm descending faster than before. I think I've finally reached lighting nirvana.


 Considering Both my Betty-R's are the 3600 lumen versions this would be a sweet and noticeable upgrade in both output and improved color rendition. Now only if the damn Canadian dollar would smarten up, lol.

Thanx for your update!!!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> I have the 3600-lumen (XM-L) and 4500-lumen (XML-2) models. The increase from 3600 to 4400 lumens is definitely noticeable; the increase from 4500 to 500 is very slight. But it's difficult to assess because of the different tints. I do notice, however, that I'm descending faster than before. I think I've finally reached lighting nirvana.


 Funny story stu06 since we both like and need lots of quality output. I was on the Gretna bikes website,,, I read a review from a 2016 Betty-R owner. This fellow is riding with three 2016 Betty-R's on his XC bike and one 2016 Betty-R on his lid. That's right 20,000 actual lumens,,, yes I know to much even for me lol. Anyway he mentioned that one night he was riding in Palos Verdes Peninsula,CA and a police helicopter flew down on him to see what was making all the light.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> Funny story stu06 since we both like and need lots of quality output. I was on the Gretna bikes website,,, I read a review from a 2016 Betty-R owner. This fellow is riding with three 2016 Betty-R's on his XC bike and one 2016 Betty-R on his lid. That's right 20,000 actual lumens,,, yes I know to much even for me lol. Anyway he mentioned that one night when he was riding in Palos Verdes Peninsula,CA and a police helicopter flew down on him to see what was making all the light.


Hilarious! I keep getting in arguments on another forum with some of these guys who are all about beam shaping (cutoff beam) and then some paltry low lumen output like 500 lumens or so. For some reason, they are perfectly happy with car headlights being 1300 lumens, but put that on a bike and it's blinding bright to them (don't look at it!). They'd probably have a heart attack with this one. Be worth it to see what they say.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> Hilarious! I keep getting in arguments on another forum with some of these guys who are all about beam shaping (cutoff beam) and then some paltry low lumen output like 500 lumens or so. For some reason, they are perfectly happy with car headlights being 1300 lumens, but put that on a bike and it's blinding bright to them (don't look at it!). They'd probably have a heart attack with this one. Be worth it to see what they say.
> 
> J.


 I can only imagine the thoughts some will have on this one whether it be the 6lbs of weight, or the $5000 price tag, and of coarse why anyone would need that much light short of trying to set a land speed record at night.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, he'd probably really like the new "R" models. Can probably dim them all with one button push.

Maybe the reason for all the lumens is if he ever screws up at speed, the lights will burn any obstacle up before he gets there. That, or he wears sunglasses at night.

J.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Actually the car headlight argument has been had here too because comparing car headlights to bike led lights is like comparing apples to lettuce . Huge difference in application and beam pattern.

That said, guys getting butt hurt over 1300 lumens is ridiculous. And the beam cutoff crap for trails has gotta be a personal preference (or they all ride in the open desert). I go for mix.

But anything more than about 3000 lumens for a bar light to me screams compensating or night blindness/scared of the dark.

I know a lot of guys that ride with nightrider 750s, but we know our trails and the are tight /twisty so its not east to gain enough speed to outrun lights easily. Then I come out with 1800 on the bars and 1200 on the lid lol. Ppl in front can see everything around them quite well 

The guys pumping out 20000 lumens on a mtb, seriously WTF???? How can you see anything unless there's no undergrowth/very dry air.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Agree.

Beam cut off is really not a good idea for cyclists. We sit up higher than a car typically and even on the road, there can be branches and other overhead obstacles that would be exceptionally dangerous at night with a sharp cutoff light that may not bother a car. We also are usually on the side of the road where cars and vehicles don't often go and that's where the overhead stuff is. I ride in a wooded area on rural roads are there are *lots* of places where I need to divert to miss branches. On the trail, a cut off light would be the shortest route to the inpatient TBI ward at the local hospital.

I've been riding with high lumen lights for more than a decade (and close to two) going back to the HID lamps. I've never had a problem with drivers or pedestrians complaining and I've always been able to resist looking directly at bright lights coming my way (don't understand why others can't too). The only comment I've ever had from pedestrians and other drivers was "cool light, where did you get it?" One of those exact comments was from a County Sheriff that passed me going the other way, made a U turn and came back then stopped ahead of me to ask me that very question. In my neck of the woods, looks like everyone thinks it is a win when cyclists have bright lights.

I'll be the first to admit it - the Betty R I got this year has got more lumens than I need. That said, it is nice to have all that light for a high speed descent on my road bike. 

I sort of find that about 2000 lumens is kind of the upper limit on the helmet, at least where I live. There is either humidity in the summer, bugs or just dust/snow/etc that makes more than that counterproductive. Just the bugs around here in the summer makes a helmet light a non starter. They are attracting to the light and I wind up getting a face full (hint: keep your mouth shut).

J.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I like cutoff on the road for bars, tilt down a little bit and everyone is happy. Didn't like wide angle cut off till I got it right, now I do for that purpose ( mole corrupted me lol)


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> Funny story stu06 since we both like and need lots of quality output. I was on the Gretna bikes website,,, I read a review from a 2016 Betty-R owner. This fellow is riding with three 2016 Betty-R's on his XC bike and one 2016 Betty-R on his lid. That's right 20,000 actual lumens,,, yes I know to much even for me lol. Anyway he mentioned that one night he was riding in Palos Verdes Peninsula,CA and a police helicopter flew down on him to see what was making all the light.


That's hilarious! I honestly cannot imagine the need for three Bettys on the bar. I mean, my night vision is poor and one on the bar is sufficient. Still, this is the same thing as having a mega-horsepower car. I can certainly understand the addiction! FWIW, the median home price in that area is around $1.2 million US. Can you say 1%?


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> That's hilarious! I honestly cannot imagine the need for three Bettys on the bar. I mean, my night vision is poor and one on the bar is sufficient. Still, this is the same thing as having a mega-horsepower car. I can certainly understand the addiction! FWIW, the median home price in that area is around $1.2 million US. Can you say 1%?


 Yeah guessed this fellow had to be well off to buy four Betty-R's.

On a different note I took the plunge and have two 4900K Betty-R boards and antireflective optics coming. Looking forward to the bump in output but more so the softer color rendition.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Im curious to find out about AR optics. Because optics are TIR, total internal reflection. Hopefully they do it right and its only on the front face of the optic, which will make the beam wider and smoother, anywhere else and light pattern would be a total mess.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Im curious to find out about AR optics. Because optics are TIR, total internal reflection. Hopefully they do it right and its only on the front face of the optic, which will make the beam wider and smoother, anywhere else and light pattern would be a total mess.


 I will surely write up my findings as I never had any complaints with the 6000K leds and original optics. I'm trying not to expect to much in my head in advance so I'm not swayed in the reality of what my view is once trying out the new set up.

From what I've read from a couple different posters,, I do expect some improvement in trail detail and output (not that I need anymore) as well as overall visual improvement if in fact the softer color rendition prevents the pupils from closing up as much as the cooler leds.

Maybe if stu06 is reading this he can shed some light on the beam pattern/shape, and if there are any artifacts.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Im curious to find out about AR optics. Because optics are TIR, total internal reflection. Hopefully they do it right and its only on the front face of the optic, which will make the beam wider and smoother, anywhere else and light pattern would be a total mess.


 I suspect Lupine hasn't thrown an untested AR optic on a $1000 light as these are stock on the new lights. If for some reason there is a flaw, what is it in the beam pattern that would be (a total mess?) so I know what to look for,, or will it be that obvious? When my new boards show up I will do the upgrade on just one light at first ,and then go test the new/old side by side before upgrading the second.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I suspect Lupine hasn't thrown an untested AR optic on a $1000 light as these are stock on the new lights. If for some reason there is a flaw, what is it in the beam pattern that would be (a total mess?) so I know what to look for,, or will it be that obvious? When my new boards show up I will do the upgrade on just one light at first ,and then go test the new/old side by side before upgrading the second.


That would be really interesting to see the side by side changes.

I would be very surprised if Lupine hadn't thought this through. They are a pretty thorough bunch.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> That would be really interesting to see the side by side changes.
> 
> I would be very surprised if Lupine hadn't thought this through. They are a pretty thorough bunch.
> 
> J.


 I have to admit, I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to the tech side of optics putting aside beam angle. I know a lot more about leds color rendition, die size etc. So it will be interesting to learn more about what makes a good vs poor optic excluding beam angle.

And yes I agree I'm sure too. JJ you have the 2016 Betty-R right? That betty should have come stock with the AR optics. How would you describe the beam pattern and are there any noticeable artifacts? Looking on Lupine's website,, based on the beam comparison the 2016 Betty looks to have a wider/smoother beam pattern.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

With the optics its going to be artifacts and/or badly scattered beam pattern.

I do wonder why the major optics companies haven't gone AR yet. Though for "tight spot" type use, AR coating will mess that up, but something designed for wide pattern already it could be interesting.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I've never heard of an AR optic. I would suppose that the coating would be applied to the part of the optic that sits closest to the emitter (?)...The concept behind AR is that the coating is supposed to lessen the reflective bounce-off from the light source ( giving more light transmission ). I can't see adding it to the front of the optic would really do anything since the optic itself is designed to shape and diffuse the output....but what the hell do I know...


----------



## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

tigris99 said:


> With the optics its going to be artifacts and/or badly scattered beam pattern.
> 
> I do wonder why the major optics companies haven't gone AR yet. Though for "tight spot" type use, AR coating will mess that up, but something designed for wide pattern already it could be interesting.


An AR coating on the output face will allow a few more percent of light to exit, raising the efficiency. The sides of the optic will still internally reflect due to the angle that the light hits them. This is why the best prisms have AR coating on the input and output faces, but still function as prisms.

Major optics companies, like Canon and Nikon, probably do use AR coating on prisms.


----------



## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Four Betty-R just seems like too much weight. For example, if I got a dozen of them for free and was not allowed to sell them, I still don't think I would put three on the bike. Maybe once to try it, but your tube would have a lot of packs strapped to it.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I have to admit, I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to the tech side of optics putting aside beam angle. I know a lot more about leds color rendition, die size etc. So it will be interesting to learn more about what makes a good vs poor optic excluding beam angle.
> 
> And yes I agree I'm sure too. JJ you have the 2016 Betty-R right? That betty should have come stock with the AR optics. How would you describe the beam pattern and are there any noticeable artifacts? Looking on Lupine's website,, based on the beam comparison the 2016 Betty looks to have a wider/smoother beam pattern.


Yes, I have the 2016 Betty R. I just moved it over from my road bike yesterday and I'm planning on riding it tonight. I had been riding with my 2400 lumen Wilma on the bike, but found that using that in combination with my 1200 lumen Pico gave some funny shadows on the beach I'm riding on. I thought I'd up the light content for kicks to see if that solves the problem (I think it will) with the Wilma on the helmet and the Betty on the bars. If nothing else, it ought to be funny.....

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

rsilvers said:


> Four Betty-R just seems like too much weight. For example, if I got a dozen of them for free and was not allowed to sell them, I still don't think I would put three on the bike. Maybe once to try it, but your tube would have a lot of packs strapped to it.


 Like us,, he must have done that for novelty just cause he could. I'm betting the other set is for his wife or child.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

In that case, I'd be willing to consider adoption.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

No Sh#!


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Same here, rsilvers if you have any spares, hit me up 

Dont forget optics im talking of arent camera optics (those are prism/glass lens). TIR optics PMMA optics are completely different in the sense of who makes them. Cree and ledil are the big named, with all the ones from.small companies, light manufacturers we see. Messing with pmma optics in that sense takes more care as to where its coated and what beam pattern your trying to accomplish. everyone of my torches has ar lens. My DIY bar light I made has single side AR lexan (input side only) so the lexan over optics minimizes loss while not messing with beam pattern much. Tiny bit more spill over no lexan but no visual output difference.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

indebt said:


> I will surely write up my findings as I never had any complaints with the 6000K leds and original optics. I'm trying not to expect to much in my head in advance so I'm not swayed in the reality of what my view is once trying out the new set up.
> 
> From what I've read from a couple different posters,, I do expect some improvement in trail detail and output (not that I need anymore) as well as overall visual improvement if in fact the softer color rendition prevents the pupils from closing up as much as the cooler leds.
> 
> Maybe if stu06 is reading this he can shed some light on the beam pattern/shape, and if there are any artifacts.


Hey Indebt,

I took a long, hard look at the beam pattern during my ride this morning. Instead of a hot "spot", there's a large hot "plate." Outside of this "plate" the intensity drops off fairly quickly. Despite the presence of minor artifacts around the outside perimeter of the beam, these artifacts aren't distracting simply because of the sheer diameter of the beam itself.

I'm looking forward to your impressions after you receive your upgrades. Your idea of upgrading only one at a time will surely give you a more accurate comparison between the pre- and post-upgrade beam quality.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

stu06 said:


> Hey Indebt,
> 
> I took a long, hard look at the beam pattern during my ride this morning. Instead of a hot "spot", there's a large hot "plate." Outside of this "plate" the intensity drops off fairly quickly. Despite the presence of minor artifacts around the outside perimeter of the beam, these artifacts aren't distracting simply because of the sheer diameter of the beam itself.
> 
> I'm looking forward to your impressions after you receive your upgrades. Your idea of upgrading only one at a time will surely give you a more accurate comparison between the pre- and post-upgrade beam quality.


 Yes it will. I hope to find a spot to take photos as my back yard is only 88 feet wide. So may have to go to one of the near by fields to really see the full potential. Right now we have snow and it wont depict the trail detail I hope to see improved until it melts so will have to see how it goes.

Thanks for chiming in and describing the artifacts you have noticed. It is tough to squeeze seven XM-L2 leds into that small of a diameter with optics and get zero artifacts.

Correction!! I think the center led is a n XP-G2.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Good characterization of the Betty beam. I agree that it does have this sort of massive hot spot that is about the size of the main part of a Wilma beam.

J.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Indebt, actually I highly doubt the center is xp-g2. Too low of output and doesn't like higher currents.

However, if its smaller than the surrounding xm-l2s (which is lupine was smart, all emitters would be the emitter im about to say) its an XP-L. All Xp-Ls in that light head would have done really well as they are more efficient and have higher output vs xm-l2. They LOOK like xp-g2 at first glance, but put a g2 next to it and the yellow phosphor of the xp-l is much larger, same size as phosphor of xm-l2. That's the point of them, xm-l2 output in xp-g2 sized package.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Indebt, actually I highly doubt the center is xp-g2. Too low of output and doesn't like higher currents.
> 
> However, if its smaller than the surrounding xm-l2s (which is lupine was smart, all emitters would be the emitter im about to say) its an XP-L. All Xp-Ls in that light head would have done really well as they are more efficient and have higher output vs xm-l2. They LOOK like xp-g2 at first glance, but put a g2 next to it and the yellow phosphor of the xp-l is much larger, same size as phosphor of xm-l2. That's the point of them, xm-l2 output in xp-g2 sized package.


 The betty-R only uses the outside six leds in all modes except the hidden mode (center led)designed for moonlight or map reading or the option of a red led. So the center led will not be receiving the same current as the XM-L2's.

I just checked Gretna again and the do say XPG.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ah ok, didn't realize center led was "hidden". Cool little feature!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

*Thanx To Those Who Brought Up Neutral Tint Information!!*

I would like to thank those of you that brought up neutral tint lights and there benefits. I just received my two 4900K boards from Gretna,,, upgraded one and did some minor comparisons in the back yard as there is to much snow to ride right now.

I immediately noticed how much more accurate shrub and overall color detail was no matter what I lit up. Output is better than my older XM-L U2 board but probably not as much is if I had gone with the new XM-L2 U4 board due to its cooler tint.

I cant wait to get out on the trails with both upgraded lamps and really get a sense of the overall difference.

I did a before and after photo in my back yard and uploaded to my Photo bucket account but when I tried to upload just those two photo's, Photobucket would upload my whole library to MTBR, so sorry no photo's to show you.:madman:


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Do any of you use photobucket? If so what am I doing wrong? I highlight just the two photos but it still uploads my whole library to MTBR?


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

It's good to hear you like the new 4900k board. Neutral really does make the colors look more natural which in my opinion makes for quicker recognition of what is on the trail ahead. I would love it if Neutral White would become the norm on bike lights, and cool white would be the option for those who still wanted it. I'm curious if anyone knows, do they offer Neutral for the Piko too? 

As far as Photobucket, I can't help you there. Haven't used it in ages, but seems like you used to be able to just upload photos directly to MTBR. Maybe I'm wrong.?


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I think now that lights have become more powerful and cool tint leds don't need to be a must to claim huge lumen claims things like neutral tint/ beam shape /UI/ remote options will be even more important. I really think in the next year or so they will claim a much larger percentage purchased.

Yes MaximusHQ the Piko is available in neutral tint but must be special ordered and assembled at Lupine Germany as unlike the Wilma and Betty it is not user replaceable.


----------



## hardcore11 (Jan 30, 2004)

I made a quick unboxing video for the new 2016 Lupine Wilma R7 if anyone is interested. This thing rocks!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

XM-L U2 emitters.



New XM-L2 4900K emitters.

New 4900K boards, Optics, AR lens cap

Thank you all who educated me on the warmer tint leds. Awesome!!

Wood shed is approx. 90 feet.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> I've never heard of an AR optic. I would suppose that the coating would be applied to the part of the optic that sits closest to the emitter (?)...The concept behind AR is that the coating is supposed to lessen the reflective bounce-off from the light source ( giving more light transmission ). I can't see adding it to the front of the optic would really do anything since the optic itself is designed to shape and diffuse the output....but what the hell do I know...


 Sorry!!!! (My mistake) as it isn't an AR optic, rather a AR front lens cap.


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

Wow indebt, nice pictures. What a wonderful difference the 4900k board makes and thank you for the info on the Piko.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Your welcome MaximusHQ. Technology has advanced so much on these lights over the past five years that even two neutral tint Piko's would make a great set up for just about any riding conditions or rider expectations. And of coarse have Lupine reputation for durability and quality second to none.

I used my crappy camera for those freehand photos,, but if you look closely you can see despite some of the light been blocked by the fire pit the new 4900K boards are brighter but easier on the eyes. Beam is smoother as well as been a bit wider. Range is improved too. If you look closely at both photo's, you will see the trees behind the wood shed are more lit up with the 4900K than the stock XM-L U2.

I'm sure it will be more impressive once the snow has melted and I see both lamp heads in action. Trail detail should be better than any light I've used before with less reflective glare. Snow usually doesn't stick around here this long so hope it warms up soon.


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks for the pictures and unboxing video guys! I am waiting for Gretna to get some stock back in and I am getting a Betty RX 14 with the 4900k board!


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Same here, rsilvers if you have any spares, hit me up
> 
> Dont forget optics im talking of arent camera optics (those are prism/glass lens). TIR optics PMMA optics are completely different in the sense of who makes them. Cree and ledil are the big named, with all the ones from.small companies, light manufacturers we see. Messing with pmma optics in that sense takes more care as to where its coated and what beam pattern your trying to accomplish. everyone of my torches has ar lens. My DIY bar light I made has single side AR lexan (input side only) so the lexan over optics minimizes loss while not messing with beam pattern much. Tiny bit more spill over no lexan but no visual output difference.


Hey tigres99, just a heads up and apology,, I gave some bad info regarding what I thought were AR optics. Turns out it's just the lens cap that has the AR coating on the Lupine products.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> Do any of you use photobucket? If so what am I doing wrong? I highlight just the two photos but it still uploads my whole library to MTBR?


Yeah, I use Photobucket but it's a pain. If I could upload my photos from my phone/camera directly to my computer I would. I just upload to PBucket and then copy them to my computer. From there I upload to MTBR. Of course I could also use photo links to my Photobucket photos but just easier to copy to my computer. Also easier to edit the photo if I use my own software.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah, I use Photobucket but it's a pain. If I could upload my photos from my phone/camera directly to my computer I would. I just upload to PBucket and then copy them to my computer. From there I upload to MTBR. Of course I could also use photo links to my Photobucket photos but just easier to copy to my computer. Also easier to edit the photo if I use my own software.


 I upload my camera to my computer first via picasa but cant upload photo's to MTBR from my computer. I have to then upload photo's from my computer to Photo Bucket, then MTBR will accept the photo's. I sort of figured it out I think lol. But what a pain.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

indebt said:


> Your welcome MaximusHQ. Technology has advanced so much on these lights over the past five years that even two neutral tint Piko's would make a great set up for just about any riding conditions or rider expectations. And of coarse have Lupine reputation for durability and quality second to none.
> 
> I used my crappy camera for those freehand photos,, but if you look closely you can see despite some of the light been blocked by the fire pit the new 4900K boards are brighter but easier on the eyes. Beam is smoother as well as been a bit wider. Range is improved too. If you look closely at both photo's, you will see the trees behind the wood shed are more lit up with the 4900K than the stock XM-L U2.
> 
> I'm sure it will be more impressive once the snow has melted and I see both lamp heads in action. Trail detail should be better than any light I've used before with less reflective glare. Snow usually doesn't stick around here this long so hope it warms up soon.


Btw, its not the tint that is making the light brighter, old emitters as you said were XML. New are XM-L2. The xm-l2 are superior to their XML predecessor in every way. In your case probably around 5-700 lumen increase.

Btw the lens cap is there to protect the optics so AR coated only to keep it from diminishing output, which is nice they still went through that effort.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Btw, its not the tint that is making the light brighter, old emitters as you said were XML. New are XM-L2. The xm-l2 are superior to their XML predecessor in every way. In your case probably around 5-700 lumen increase.
> 
> Btw the lens cap is there to protect the optics so AR coated only to keep it from diminishing output, which is nice they still went through that effort.


 Yes I do understand it's the XM-L2's that of coarse are better performers than my old led board and not the tint. In fact if I had chose the XM-L2 U4 led board the lumen increase claim is 800 over my old board. Being these are a warmer tint board the output either would be less,,, or at least appear less than the U4's to our eyes.

I'm really happy with the output gains, beam improvement and range while being easier on my eyes. Once again I thank all you guys that brought this subject to the forum. Cheers!!


----------



## bear the bear (Aug 11, 2007)

Anyone know when Gretna will have the 4900k upgrades back in stock for the betty R?


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

They are out of stock on a lot of stuff. I've been waiting since the end of last year to get the upgrade for my original Wilma. And the Betty has been out since then also.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Diamondback_X6 said:


> They are out of stock on a lot of stuff. I've been waiting since the end of last year to get the upgrade for my original Wilma. And the Betty has been out since then also.


 I just checked Gretna and their showing the Wilma upgrade as (in stock). Not the old version though with the switch on the cable, not sure if that's the one your waiting for. Also the Betty R is listed as in stock unless your waiting for the 4900K version. Never mind I see from your post above your waiting for the 4900K version. LOL.


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Yeah, they are out of everything I am looking for. I have a feeling Lupine Germany is on a break for the trade show over there and not shipping much.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yeah your probably right,,,,, sucks though. Hopefully good news for you soon.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

bear the bear said:


> Anyone know when Gretna will have the 4900k upgrades back in stock for the betty R?


 Gretnabikes website is showing the 4900K boards for the Betty-R (in stock),


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Cool! Hopefully they are getting restocked on everything.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Diamondback_X6 said:


> Cool! Hopefully they are getting restocked on everything.


 You should give Dan a shout and see if your Wilma board and Betty-R X14 4900K headlamp is in. If your at all wired like me you probably have already done this!!


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

Oh I have 3 times already since the beginning of the year! He's probably getting tired of me emailing him by now.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Squeaky wheel gets the grease. I'm sure he wont mind selling you a big ticket item. You have to inquire anyway as that is a special order and wont be listed on their website. Just Do It!!!!!!!!!! lol.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

For those interested in 4900K tint Wilma's,,,,,,,(Cat!!) Finally your ultimate helmet light!! I just spoke to Dan at Gretna and their on the way!! Should be available within a week or two. I suspect they will go fast as the 4900K Betty boards had already sold out quite quickly. Anyone interested should contact Dan or Bill directly to pre-order as often they are available before listed on the website if at all. Cheers!!


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt; Thanks for that info. I might wait a while though. I'd like to see if Gloworm is going to go "remote wireless" first. Not to mention I'd like to see if Gemini is going to use warmer tinted emitters for their Olympia ( or not ). The Wilma with 4900K emitters should be awesome but depends on the tint though. Not that it would worry me because I'm sure if I buy one and don't like it I could return it. Same for Gloworm and Gemini only theirs will cost a lot less ( light head only ). If I get a Lupine I have no choice but to use their proprietary battery so that would mean spending almost three times as much money.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I though GW was going wireless remote,,, that it was a done deal?? The Olympia would be the best value of the three options on your short list but as you mentioned tint is a little on the cool side for your taste. I would be really surprised if you thought the 4900K Wilma was to cool,,, as for my taste any warmer and it would be way to yellow. Of coarse although the most expensive the Wilma will be by far the best performer,, (You will have your ultimate helmet light!!) Keep in mind the Lupine battery's last along time, the fist Piko's I purchased six years ago still have about 90% capacity on their battery's so in the long run not that expensive. Although not a lot cheaper (Open Light Systems) have batterys for Lupines too.


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> If I get a Lupine I have no choice but to use their proprietary battery so that would mean spending almost three times as much money.





indebt said:


> Keep in mind the Lupine battery's last along time, the fist Piko's I purchased six years ago still have about 90% capacity on their battery's so in the long run not that expensive. Although not a lot cheaper (Open Light Systems) have batterys for Lupines too.


Cat - indebt's experience with Lupine batteries mirrors mine. I have some 5 year old batteries that are doing great. That's amazing to me since I typically plan on LiIon life to be about 3 years. The cells that Lupine is using must be top of the food chain in the industry and must be premium cells to have that lifetime. That makes that pretty inexpensive for total cost of ownership.

J.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

It's not just the cells, packs using the same cells are rather cheap these days. And cells will last. But Lupine obviously makes sure not only that the packs are balanced (which any company that's not China eBay junk) but they also Match their cells. Long explanation but it saves need to rebalance every so often.

Other key to lasting is I doubt the pack is used 200x a year and discharged to completely dead (protection circuit cuts off power to protect cells) every time their used.

The cheaper packs using Panasonic cells can do all of that EXCEPT there is a risk of needing rebalance down the road. Matching cells in a pack isn't cheap because you basically take a case of cells, test each one, then use those results to make matching pairs/sets. The matched sets go into a pack together. If there is cells that are not able to be matched, they are thrown aside for whatever. Other companies likely only match batch numbers. It works but you won't have 90% of capacity 3yrs later unless you open and balance the pack again.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

There are also different grades of cells you can buy.

Either way, whatever Lupine is doing, their packs seem to hold up better than any of my other li-ion batteries for either bike lights or anything else I own. Their packs are pretty top drawer.

J.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> I though GW was going wireless remote,,, that it was a done deal?? The Olympia would be the best value of the three options on your short list but as you mentioned tint is a little on the cool side for your taste. I would be really surprised if you thought the 4900K Wilma was to cool,,, as for my taste any warmer and it would be way to yellow. Of coarse although the most expensive the Wilma will be by far the best performer,, *(You will have your ultimate helmet light!!)* Keep in mind the Lupine battery's last along time, the fist Piko's I purchased six years ago still have about 90% capacity on their battery's so in the long run not that expensive. Although not a lot cheaper (Open Light Systems) have batterys for Lupines too.


( about the Gloworms ) Yeah, it's suppose to be a done deal but until it comes to market....

When it comes to ultimate helmet lamps I'm perhaps more picky than most. Four things that I consider "Must have's"; Must not be too heavy, has to have the right beam pattern for helmet use, has to have the correct neutral tint and be programmable with wireless remote. The Wilma with neutral emitters "might" have everything I want ( along with the most output ) Of course all this begs the question: If I find the "MY" ultimate helmet light with the Lupine, then what? Do I give up reviewing Chinese lamps? ...probably..Then again if I get a Lupine first I'll never know if the GW XS or Gemini Olympia would of been enough. Decisions, decisions.

Two days ago I noticed while driving down the road that the leaf buds are starting to appear on the trees. Seeing that just warms my heart. I can't wait for the Spring to arrive!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> ( about the Gloworms ) Yeah, it's suppose to be a done deal but until it comes to market....
> 
> When it comes to ultimate helmet lamps I'm perhaps more picky than most. Four things that I consider "Must have's"; Must not be too heavy, has to have the right beam pattern for helmet use, has to have the correct neutral tint and be programmable with wireless remote. The Wilma with neutral emitters "might" have everything I want ( along with the most output ) Of course all this begs the question: If I find the "MY" ultimate helmet light with the Lupine, then what? Do I give up reviewing Chinese lamps? ...probably..Then again if I get a Lupine first I'll never know if the GW XS or Gemini Olympia would of been enough. Decisions, decisions.
> 
> Two days ago I noticed while driving down the road that the leaf buds are starting to appear on the trees. Seeing that just warms my heart. I can't wait for the Spring to arrive!


Weight is the big one for me. I also think there is an upper limit of what you can put on a helmet. At some point, if it's too bright, you start to get too much reflection back from haze, humidity, bugs etc... and it almost makes it worse, kind of like driving with your high beams on in a snowstorm.

I tend to leave my helmet light off until I get to a circumstance were I need more light. Then I just turn it on. Otherwise, it's largely for redundancy.

J.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I know there is grades which is why I said there's a long explaination. But for brand name cells the grade levels on cell performance is very close, it all comes down to matching the cells used per pack.

Lupine pays for it, that's why their packs are the best. Lower brands of lights can be just as good but a hassle for end users to balance packs.

I agree there is a weight factor, it's varies greatly. I can personally deal with a lot if it's for an hour or less.

The glare problem is solved with warmer tint emitters. Cool white is horrible for that. I made a video using flashlights that happened to show the difference and superiority of neutral white lights in air that has alot of particulates like moisture, dust etc.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

[QUOTE=Cat

I totally understand your position (Then What?) Yes once you have the best, it can for some become a challenge to be as interested in lesser products but there is always something, other or (lesser) brands offer worth mentioning. For example the Gemini products this year offer fantastic value for a brand name proven product line. This for me gets my attention and I enjoy sharing my views with others on something I believe in. So it's not over Cat if you decide on Lupine

Will the XS or Olympia be enough,,,,, hell ya!! BUT!!! Their IMO not equals to the Wilma especially for range. As for weight the Olympia is the lightest I think around 92 grams then the XS at 110, and last the Wilma at 120. I wish you lived near by, as I would let you try my Betty-R out with the 4900K board so you had confirmation if the tint was to your taste. Anyway you do have a decision to make don't you. Cheers!!


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

The really bad thing right now is that I have it itchy trigger finger because I just got my yearly bonus. When you said the Lupine "has range" my trigger finger started to Twitch.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

HaHa,,,, I bet it did. Like you said all three products come from good venders so returning a new item if there is something you don't like shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> Weight is the big one for me. I also think there is an upper limit of what you can put on a helmet. At some point, if it's too bright, you start to get too much reflection back from haze, humidity, bugs etc... and it almost makes it worse, kind of like driving with your high beams on in a snowstorm.
> 
> I tend to leave my helmet light off until I get to a circumstance were I need more light. Then I just turn it on. Otherwise, it's largely for redundancy.
> 
> J.


Yep, real important that the lamp I chose not be too noticeably heavy when mounted on the helmet. Yes, the possibility of "Reflective Atmospheric Glare" ( or"RAG" for short ) is always an issue. It's just not an issue with the higher output of some lamps but also has to do with the optics being used and how they project the given beam pattern off of the helmet.

Last year I discovered ( quite by accident ) that when I mounted the lamp on the very top of the helmet that I didn't notice the RAG factor quite as much ( compared to when I mount the lamps nearer my face/visor ). Late spring is usually the worst time of the year for RAG effect where I live as the pollen count gets really high and more bugs are flying around.

Like tig mentioned, the RAG factor is also not as intense when using lamps with neutral emitters ( true at least with the ones I currently own ). The Solarstorm XT40 ( neutral emitters ) is likely the brightest lamp I currently use on the helmet. Even with it's very large spot beam pattern I can't recall there being a problem with RAG. Then again I did get it in the middle of summer last year.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yep, real important that the lamp I chose not be too noticeably heavy when mounted on the helmet. Yes, the possibility of "Reflective Atmospheric Glare" ( or"RAG" for short ) is always an issue. It's just not an issue with the higher output of some lamps but also has to do with the optics being used and how they project the given beam pattern off of the helmet.
> 
> Last year I discovered ( quite by accident ) that when I mounted the lamp on the very top of the helmet that I didn't notice the RAG factor quite as much ( compared to when I mount the lamps nearer my face/visor ). Late spring is usually the worst time of the year for RAG effect where I live as the pollen count gets really high and more bugs are flying around.
> 
> Like tig mentioned, the RAG factor is also not as intense when using lamps with neutral emitters ( true at least with the ones I currently own ). The Solarstorm XT40 ( neutral emitters ) is likely the brightest lamp I currently use on the helmet. Even with it's very large spot beam pattern I can't recall there being a problem with RAG. Then again I did get it in the middle of summer last year.


 Very good point Cat. If you mount your light at the top of your helmet I think anything heavier than a Duo may cause lateral wobble. I don't night ride in the summer as it doesn't get dark till after 10:30 so no bug issues or floatie's to deal with in the winter months for me other than dew points.. I mount mine above the visor as it is a bit on the heavy side.

What is the weight of the heaviest lamp you have mounted up high and been comfortable??


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> ...What is the weight of the heaviest lamp you have mounted up high and been comfortable??


That would be the Solarstorm XT40 but the weight is pretty much borderline though. I don't have a scale so maybe someone else can answer about the weight. I'm also comfortable with using the Gemini Duo and 2-cell on the helmet but just a year or so ago I wouldn't of liked that either.

I think a lot has to do with how well your helmet fits your head. During colder weather I wear a cycling head cap under my helmet which gives a more secure feel. During the summer months the fit of my helmet is a bit looser. I usually wear a _Headsweats_® headband under the helmet during summer not only for sweat control but to help stabilize the helmet.

Anyway, I'm glad you asked the questions. Before I drop six to seven Benjamin'$ on a new helmet lamp I need to make sure that weight isn't going to be an issue. I think a lot of people use the Wilma on the helmet so I'm figuring it shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Not that I'm trying to talk you out of a nice Wilma, (and I'm not) , besides helmet fit/ mounting at the top of your lid instead of above visor/ the actual hight of the lamp itself will be a factor for two reasons 1 the Wilma is a round quad lamp which center of gravity will be higher than the Duo or any two or three wide lamp heads like the XS. 2 Made even worse if using a gopro mount as I believe that would make the lamp head sit even higher than stock. It makes a huge difference for me between mounting above the visor vs up top.

I would love to see you in a Wilma but in realty if your helmet isn't really snug with your mounting preference the lower the weight and profile of the lamp head will be a factor.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

Bell Super 2R MIPS with a Betty R on the pole--no weight issue whatsoever. And I'm a small guy--5' 7", 135 lbs. Oh, and 5000 lumens is not nearly as bright as everyone thinks it is. To my eyes, doubling the power output only increases the perceived brightness incrementally. Cat, just order the Wilma in 4900K. Happiness is only a click or two away.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> Not that I'm trying to talk you out of a nice Wilma, (and I'm not) , besides helmet fit/ mounting at the top of your lid instead of above visor/ the actual hight of the lamp itself will be a factor for two reasons 1 the Wilma is a round quad lamp which center of gravity will be higher than the Duo or any two or three wide lamp heads like the XS. 2 Made even worse if using a gopro mount as I believe that would make the lamp head sit even higher than stock. It makes a huge difference for me between mounting above the visor vs up top...


I hear what you're saying but my experience has been a little different. A small lamp ( like a Duo or X2 ) I can mount front or top of helmet without much problem. If I mount a lamp that is too heavy to the front of the helmet, for me I found that the helmet will keep sliding down toward my face. This means that the center of gravity for the helmet has changed more towards the front. If I mount the lamp directly in the center of the helmet there is still going to be movement of the helmet ( pendulum effect ) but the mass of the lamp is more evenly ( or centered ) dispersed ( when not moving ) across the arch of the helmet ( and then to the head ). All of this changes of course depending on the angle of the helmet when sitting on a bike and how you tend to move your head when riding.

I can control side to side motion ( more or less ) with my straps but if my helmet starts to slide forward..not much I can do but keep reaching up and sliding it back. Actually I found if I mount the lamp ( a taller/heavier lamp ) slightly off center to the back that it helps keep the helmet from sliding forward. Makes sense for me because when I'm on the bike my head tends to lean forward more.

Anyway, from a personal perspective it's still about picking the lesser of possible evils. If the lamp is "way too heavy" it's not going to work no matter how I mount it, at least with the old worn out helmet I currently use. That said, the helmet you use makes a big difference as well. One that grips your head more securely will have less unwanted movement ( having more hair might help in that area as well.. ). Regardless, it won't change the mass/weight issue of what's sitting on your head. It will either be acceptable to the rider or it won't . Different people have different comfort levels.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> I hear what you're saying but my experience has been a little different. A small lamp ( like a Duo or X2 ) I can mount front or top of helmet without much problem. If I mount a lamp that is too heavy to the front of the helmet, for me I found that the helmet will keep sliding down toward my face. This means that the center of gravity for the helmet has changed more towards the front. If I mount the lamp directly in the center of the helmet there is still going to be movement of the helmet ( pendulum effect ) but the mass of the lamp is more evenly ( or centered ) dispersed ( when not moving ) across the arch of the helmet ( and then to the head ). All of this changes of course depending on the angle of the helmet when sitting on a bike and how you tend to move your head when riding.
> 
> I can control side to side motion ( more or less ) with my straps but if my helmet starts to slide forward..not much I can do but keep reaching up and sliding it back. Actually I found if I mount the lamp ( a taller/heavier lamp ) slightly off center to the back that it helps keep the helmet from sliding forward. Makes sense for me because when I'm on the bike my head tends to lean forward more.
> 
> Anyway, from a personal perspective it's still about picking the lesser of possible evils. If the lamp is "way too heavy" it's not going to work no matter how I mount it, at least with the old worn out helmet I currently use. That said, the helmet you use makes a big difference as well. One that grips your head more securely will have less unwanted movement ( having more hair might help in that area as well.. ). Regardless, it won't change the mass/weight issue of what's sitting on your head. It will either be acceptable to the rider or it won't . Different people have different comfort levels.


 Haha ,,, yes I'm having the hair issue as well. My helmet has the dial at the back that really snugs the helmet in place and acts almost like a counter weight for my Betty-R above the visor. Not sure what your using but something to consider. Your right that everyone does have different comfort levels so if a lamp is to heavy,,, it's to heavy!!

The Wilma is so sweet!! Hope you go for it,,, and more important love it!! If not,, an XS with triple spot optics will do the trick if the Olympia is to cool of a tint for you.

Gemini USA was saying the pre production lamps were using 4900K leds. Don't know the binning,,,,,,,,, don't know if there is more than one bin that can claim 4900K? The 4900K Lupine is using is really easy on my eyes and as I've mentioned before would be surprised if they were to cool of a tint for you.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Helmet sliding issues??? I use a bell stoker, can mount any light I choose to use (though that doesn't include my heaviest lights, keep around 100g light head weight or lower) on very top or just above the visor with 2 cell on the back. Even mount a camera on very top with light over the visor. My helmet never moves.

I can see bigger lights (like my 880 clone) being an issue but for the most part if my helmet moves it's set too loose anyway.

That said, I agree that lights can easily be too heavy. And lighter/balanced is so much better.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 you know a lot about binning. Could there be more than one specific bin claiming 4900K. Gemini claims there pre production products are 4900K which I'm assuming is what Cat just reviewed and found on the cool side. My 4900K Betty's are quite warm and any warmer would be like the old incandescent days.


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Bins wont effect tint. Bin only effects output per watt. higher bin=more lumens per watt. Color temperature/tint is completely separate. And the same declared color temp can vary in appearance (color of visible light). Add in the factor of if they are using 3C or 3D which 3D in my experience so far appears to have less yellow than 3C, but color temp is still 4750-5000K. Since 3D shifts more towards the red side of the spectrum, it has less visable yellow and appears "cooler" due to the absence of the "warmer" yellow tint. However color rendition (CRI) will be basically the exact same. And the 3 things that matter to us that prefer neutral white are the absence of the blue tint, the glare created off moisture and particles in the air, and CRI rating. Beyond that it comes to personal preference. 3C 4750-5000K tint is what is most commonly used now as it is available in U2 and U3 bin with 4C (t6 bin is highest known) coming in behind that for "neutral white".

Now 4900K is an average. There is A LOT that can change the appearance of the tint color. 

Next is optics. every manufacturer of optics will cause the exact same emitter to look likes its a slightly different (or drastically different) tint. If you use reflector based lights, the reflectors separate the yellows much more so the light appears much warmer. Optics can have the exact same effect. If his LEDS are indeed "4900k" then it comes down to 3C or 3D tint and the optics they use.

I have seen optics that separate the yellow enough from COOL WHITE emitters that they appear much warmer than they are till you see the light on a smooth, white surface. Then you see the blue in the outer ring as well as you'll notice the low CRI and glare.

So chances are his light is 4900K, but the tint and optics play a big part in how the light appears. There just too much variation and too many variables that can effect the appearance of the visible light to know exactly what he is looking at or what is causing the apparent difference. In reality your opinion of warm and his opinion of warm could vary greatly and the 2 lights in question could actually look the exact same when side by side.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Thank you for the explanation, and yes I do agree that two people can look at the same light and have different opinions of its color rendition. Cheers!!


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh I'm not even referring to color rendition. Just the color of the light being produced. Color rendition is the same regardless, but personal preference of what's acceptable color rendition obviously varies.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I must be missing something,,,,,, my previous post agrees what your reply is?? Color perceived is objective. Maybe rendition isn't the right word?


----------



## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Color rendition in how I am referring to it is CRI (Color Rendition Index), as in how the colored objects the light is shined in look true to their color or "whited out" like cool white emitters do. Cool white emitters also have low CRI which is why colors of trees and brush also look cold. High CRI makes colors look like they do in natural light.

That's why we refer to LED light color as "tint". because it's white light with a " yellow tint" or a "cool blue tint".

Your way of referring to it isn't wrong, just can be confused with CRI which is different in the case of how we talk about LEDs

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

Since I cannot get Gretna to answer some questions via email. Maybe the forum can. Can the Betty, Wilma, Piko be ordered with the 4900K LEDs, or is this an upgrade that is purchased after buying the "standard" versions?

I am looking to move to a new helmet/bar system. My tesla/wilma is long in the tooth. 

With the pictures I see comparing the LED colors, I prefer the warmer LEDs. I will not spend 1K+ and then have to spend an additional "upgrade" charge.

If so, I will move on.........


----------



## Diamondback_X6 (Dec 18, 2009)

You are supposed to be able to order them with the boards, they just have to be special ordered. I don't know if they are carrying any stock with the 4900k boards already installed or not. It seems to be hard to get a response from them sometimes I know.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes,,, all lights can be ordered with 4900K boards. I received an email from Dan a couple weeks ago and he said 4900K Wilma's were on their way. They should be in stock any time now. I don't have any info on Betty's/Piko's in stock at Gretna.

I don't know how long you were waiting for a reply from Gretna but they usually take two/three days. What set up were you going for? 4900K Wilma's should be in stock. I know there are 4900K betty boards in stock as well so I'm sure Gretna wouldn't mind swapping out the U-4 board for the 4900K board if you wanted the Betty right away.


----------



## Neurotoxin (Apr 8, 2016)

tjl5709 said:


> Since I cannot get Gretna to answer some questions via email. Maybe the forum can. Can the Betty, Wilma, Piko be ordered with the 4900K LEDs, or is this an upgrade that is purchased after buying the "standard" versions?
> 
> I am looking to move to a new helmet/bar system. My tesla/wilma is long in the tooth.
> 
> ...


I will be receiving a Wilma R (4900K) within a few days (I emailed Dan to inquire about availability).


----------



## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi Cat, in regards to the helmet sliding issue I have experienced the same issues with a couple different helmets that I have used. I now use a headband or sweatband under the helmet and it snugs up the helmet fit and supports it better with less movement even with the added weight of lights. I currently use this one Amazon.com: Halo II Headband Sweatband Pullover Black: Sports & Outdoors . It has a channel to keep the sweat out of your eyes. It works great for that, but when you take it off it leaves an impression line on your dome for a while. Some other cloth or other material ones would work serve the same function. I mount my helmet lights at the front of the helmet near the visor.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tjl5709 said:


> Since I cannot get Gretna to answer some questions via email. Maybe the forum can. Can the Betty, Wilma, Piko be ordered with the 4900K LEDs, or is this an upgrade that is purchased after buying the "standard" versions?
> 
> I am looking to move to a new helmet/bar system. My tesla/wilma is long in the tooth.
> 
> ...


 I was wondering if you heard back yet from Gretna? If so did you make any decisions? I sent an email over a week ago to see if I could get some info for you,, and also haven't got a response. Don't know if their short staffed do to holidays or other commitments, but yes they could improve in that area.


----------



## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

Yep. Finally got thru. I picked up the betty r and piko in 4900K. Much easier on the eyes than the typical "blueish" lights on the market. Blue tooth control is sweet.


----------



## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

tjl5709 said:


> Yep. Finally got thru. I picked up the betty r and piko in 4900K. Much easier on the eyes than the typical "blueish" lights on the market. Blue tooth control is sweet.


What do you think of the Betty's beam pattern on the bar? (Assuming it is on the bar.)


----------



## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

Yep, I use it on the bar. It's pretty wide, but as bright as it is, it could be wider. This thing is bright. You cannot out ride it.


----------



## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

tjl5709 said:


> Yep, I use it on the bar. *It's pretty wide, but as bright as it is, it could be wider.* This thing is bright. You cannot out ride it.


Interesting that you should say this. How would you describe the fill-in of the beam pattern close to the bike?...say between the tire and about 8ft.??...particularly in relation to the lower settings...say around 300 to 500 lumen...?? Do you feel you need to adjust the aim of the lamp when using lower outputs?


----------



## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

No need to adjust between outputs. Spill is fine. Don't take what I say to mean the betty needs to have a wider lense because its to narrow. It works fine as is, and and no need to adjust when you kick it to a lower setting. For typical technical stuff, lower settings are preferred. I don't see needing to max it out unless your down hilling.

My point on the wider beam is that it has so much output, you can sacrifice some throw to go wider. Thats all. I don't see anybody out riding this light. From my perspective, all that throw is wasted. It would be nice to go wider, for wider sake.

With the bluetooth feature to switch on the go, and program via phone, I really don't see it getting any better. It's got all the output you will ever need, any upgrades should be built around efficiency.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Glad you got your lights finally. Yeah they are pretty sweet products and although very expensive, some critics really don't know just how good they are until they try them. After changing my Betty-R's to 4900K i cant say enough how please i am with the results.
Yes there is just a ton of light everywhere and as far as my eyes can see pretty much.

Hopefully Cat gets his hands on the Wilma thats been on his radar. With all his experience i'd like to hear his impressions.


----------



## bentyyc (Aug 3, 2006)

Reviving an old thread...

Thanks to all of the discussion here, I've pulled the trigger on a 4900K Piko setup today. Cannot wait! Will post pics when it arrives... Great pre-sales support from Dan at Lupine NA.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Congrats on your purchase!! You will get many many years out of this investment. I remember a good buddy of mine was riding with a pair of the very 1st gen Piko with the XP-G R-5 leds in them (550)lumens. He had done a major endo onto a rock garden and because he had his Piko on the bars sitting up to high, it took a direct hit. The lamp head had visible damage esthetically and continues to work flawlessly. Oh,,,, he was ok too lol. The 4900K tint is a bonus as trail detail stays natural to the eyes.


----------



## tjl5709 (Mar 23, 2006)

bentyyc said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> Thanks to all of the discussion here, I've pulled the trigger on a 4900K Piko setup today. Cannot wait! Will post pics when it arrives... Great pre-sales support from Dan at Lupine NA.


Just an idea for the folks going piko and adding fins for cooling. I found mine to have a bit of an air gap that would reduced cooling efficiency. I cut some strips of aluminum foil to close the gap, then I greased them down with silver thermal grease (used to attach cooling fins to pc CPU's). Just an idea to get maximum cooling efficiency.


----------



## bentyyc (Aug 3, 2006)

I missed the UPS delivery guy yesterday 

Was surprised; shocked actually, at the COD charge tacked-on to this, and now need to leave a cheque (yes, cheque. I'm Canadian) at the door for when UPS tries again today.

Sent a note to Lupine NA and non-other than Bill G (of YouTube fame) called me personally to apologize and explain some of the international shipping nuances. 

I still have hopes that the product lives up to the hype, but I can tell you that between Bill calling me, and all the pre-sales support I got from Dan, these guys are a class act!!


----------



## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

bentyyc said:


> I missed the UPS delivery guy yesterday
> 
> Was surprised; shocked actually, at the COD charge tacked-on to this, and now need to leave a cheque (yes, cheque. I'm Canadian) at the door for when UPS tries again today.
> 
> ...


I'd be really shocked if you didn't like the Piko. It's an amazing little light.

I just bought the top end charger from Lupine that allows you to discharge and charge batteries. I have some old batteries that are approaching 5 and 7 years old respectively. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that they have a very high fraction of their capacity left. Normally, Li-ion start exhibiting significant drop off in capacity simply due to age after about three years unless you use exceptionally pure chemistry batteries. The capacity remaining was quite high for batteries that old so from that I conclude that Lupine is using top drawer cells in their batteries.

I run a piko on my helmet with a long cord with the battery in my jersey pocket for winter riding on my fatbike. The piko is so light you don't even know it's there. While I have a Wilma as well for the bars, I'm tempted to recommend a dual Piko set up as the ultimate low profile light set up for trail riding.

J.


----------



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

bentyyc said:


> I missed the UPS delivery guy yesterday
> 
> Was surprised; shocked actually, at the COD charge tacked-on to this, and now need to leave a cheque (yes, cheque. I'm Canadian) at the door for when UPS tries again today.
> 
> ...


 I remember ordering two Lupine battery bags years ago and retail was something like $39. Well i ended up getting stung with $41 worth of duty fees on that shipping to BC. Talk about been ripped off by your government.

You have just purchased IMO the best overall twin led setup in the market, so if your not happy with the Piko then you may need to jump to a three or four led lamp head. Other than output if you have poor night vision or are a lumen junky you should be very satisfied with your Piko.


----------



## bentyyc (Aug 3, 2006)

Got it!

2016 Lupine Piko RX4 4900K by Ben, on Flickr

Haven't had to play with it much, but hoping to get a couple of rides in this weekend and will post a review...


----------

