# Access for e-MTB's



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united. This forum suggests strongly this isn't possible. Accordingly, MTB assistance isn't being asked for by eMTB advocates. We get it; we don't need you, so your comments that you aren't going to help us are pointless. Does any ebike proponent disagree?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd be happy to have e-bike folks on my side... if they made an honest effort to grapple with/solve this basic conundrum:
-Speed is the #1 problem for existing mountain bike access.
-Adding power adds speed.

E-bike folks need to figure out how to deal with that. I get that they're fun. I get that they let people who are disabled or less fit enjoy the outdoors. That's great but if you can't tell if someone is riding a 3000W unlimited bike or a 250W 15mph setup... you (we) are screwed, because in that scenario the only easy solution is to either ban all bikes, or ban all motorized bikes regardless of power/limits. 

Human power only inherently limits what bikes can do. That's all that has allowed us to use MUTs. Literally. 

Add power and speed and it's going to be hard to explain why you shouldn't be confined to motorized trails unless you can somehow find a way to enforce some reasonable limits. Nightly software patches for controllers? GPS tracking built into the motor casing? Get creative. But don't insult mountain bikers by telling them you deserve access to the same trails they do until you've shown that you're grownup enough to grapple with this fundamental problem.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

fos'l said:


> I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united. This forum suggests strongly this isn't possible. Accordingly, MTB assistance isn't being asked for by eMTB advocates. We get it; we don't need you, so your comments that you aren't going to help us are pointless. Does any ebike proponent disagree?


Funny thing is most mtb people I talk with in person are fine with class 1 pedelecs on all mtb trails and feel the NFS is currently way out of touch and has an unsustainable policy. So I would assume nothing about overall mtb views from the toxic ranting around here.

But I agree the constant "we are not going to help" etc is stating the obvious for those who don't like electric trail bikes yet post obsessively in the forum


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd say 250W/15mph e bikes are probably fine on 99% of existing MUTs. 

Problem is, nobody has proposed how to enforce those limits. So it's easier to just say, "screw this motor stuff, you guys are on your own."

Come up with some real, creative solutions for that problem and you'll get at least grudging acceptance. Otherwise, enjoy the moto trails.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Fair point. The manufacturers must control their product IMO. Raleigh is placing the category of bike under a clear coat AFAICT. The only other aspect is making the systems unchangeable. DIY kits can't be categorized effectively.
Possibly the only method for controlling would be a speed limit and should be for all MTB's, maybe 15 mph uphill and 25 mph downhill or something that is agreed upon by the majority of riders.
My primary goal was to eliminate the repetitious comment that MTB individuals won't help eMTB.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Accordingly, MTB assistance isn't being asked for by eMTB advocates. We get it; we don't need you


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but the way I see it electric mountain bike access is 100% dependent on mtb's, which is the entire problem IMHO. If you don't want help from mountain bikers then don't insist that your machines are bicycles.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united.


Why would mountain bikers who are passionate about keeping motors out of non-motorized areas wish to unite with off-road electric bike enthusiasts? What would be the motive?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united.


In the northeast, motorized users trying been trying to work this angle for many years. They've seen the success that mountain bikers have had access-wise (while they've lost almost all public trail access) and want in on it. ***Regional history lesson - much of the motorized access losses happened when ATVs become popular and trail degradation (and the number of yahoos on the trails) went through the roof. The 2-wheel moto guys were painted with the same brush ("motorized user") and lost out big time. This is exactly how I see any relationship between real bikes and e-bikes panning out.

As far as gaining and keeping access, there is no benefit to mountain bikers when it comes to being associated with motorized users, but many, many downside. We've spent decades distinguishing ourselves as being strictly human-powered and it's paid off big-time.

So, can someone can clearly spell out what exactly e-bikers will be bringing to the table? What are you e-bikers going to do that a)makes things better for mountain bikers b)mitigates the inevitable access losses that mountain bikers will suffer from through guilt by association?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fos'l said:


> I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united. This forum suggests strongly this isn't possible. Accordingly, MTB assistance isn't being asked for by eMTB advocates. We get it; we don't need you, so your comments that you aren't going to help us are pointless. Does any ebike proponent disagree?


 Lost you there. MTB, human power. E motorcycle, motor power. Try to saddle up with the dirt bikes, ATVs. and ORVs. It's not a bike, start there.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

uhoh7 said:


> Funny thing is most mtb people I talk with in person are fine with class 1 pedelecs on all mtb trails and feel the NFS is currently way out of touch and has an unsustainable policy.


No doubt that's the case where you live, which as you've pointed out has very few users spread over a massive amount of terrain. Its easy for everyone to get along when you don't encounter that many people.

Here, it's a different story and one that is a lot more common, with a lot of users of all stripes and a limited amount of trail miles. 100% of the mtb riders I've asked about emtbs are against allowing them on non motorized.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> My primary goal was to eliminate the repetitious comment that MTB individuals won't help eMTB.


I'm more than happy to shut up about it when I stop hearing that a motorized bicycle is still a bicycle and that they are entitled to be ridden anywhere a bike can go.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> We get it; we don't need you, so your comments that you aren't going to help us are pointless.


I can only speak for the northeast US, but around here, if you want to ride mtb trails, you need us, otherwise, you're out. We don't need you though; not only do we not need you, you would create a ton of problems for us.

So please explain why you think it would be good for mountain bikers to climb into bed with e-bikers (figuratively, of course) from a mountain biker perspective.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Funny thing is most mtb people I talk with in person are fine with class 1 pedelecs on all mtb trails


I'm pretty sure we didn't talk in person, but thing is, I was totally for e-mtb... until I made few 100km in Livigno, Italy, and another few 100km in Dolomites, Italy in last 2 weeks. Then I completely changed my mind, and I'm totally against it... well in certain cases, I'm still for it. 
But let me explain. Why I'm for e-mtb. First, I have no intention to ride e-bike. I have my legs, lungs and heart to drive me up the hill. But some people are not as lucky as I am, and are handicapped (being 50kg overweight is >NOT!!!< handicap, but your fu**cked up life style). So for these people, I was actually happy they invented e-mtbs, as it would make it possible to get out and enjoy same trails as I do with my own power.
But I guess that was a dream. Reality is, that until now, I didn't really see a single handicapped person on e-bike, and I saw quite few on normal, human powered mtb, and every single one I have seen on mtb was just simply too damn lazy to pedal. If your "handicap" is 5 hamburgers and 10 liters of beer a day, then fu**k it, you don't have right to enjoy the same trails as I do. Change your life style and you will be able to enjoy those trails. 
And honestly, I was really surprised, as at the moment, trails around Livigno and in Dolomites have currently 40 to 60% ration... With e-mtb being at 60% and human powered bikes at 40% (not talking about bike parks but normal trails around mountains). So it's not "who cares about bike or two". Considering there's few 1000 riders in Livigno every day, 50+% of that on e-mtb is HUGE number. And as they were never cycling or even going out hiking, their culture and behavior in nature is somehow non-existing.
PS: It still beats me, why would someone even go for e-mtb... just get MX bike and it's going to be even a bit easier, you won't need to pedal at all.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

primoz said:


> I'm pretty sure we didn't talk in person, but thing is, I was totally for e-mtb... until I made few 100km in Livigno, Italy, and another few 100km in Dolomites, Italy in last 2 weeks. Then I completely changed my mind, and I'm totally against it... well in certain cases, I'm still for it.
> But let me explain. Why I'm for e-mtb. First, I have no intention to ride e-bike. I have my legs, lungs and heart to drive me up the hill. But some people are not as lucky as I am, and are handicapped (being 50kg overweight is >NOT!!!< handicap, but your fu**cked up life style). So for these people, I was actually happy they invented e-mtbs, as it would make it possible to get out and enjoy same trails as I do with my own power.
> But I guess that was a dream. Reality is, that until now, I didn't really see a single handicapped person on e-bike, and I saw quite few on normal, human powered mtb, and every single one I have seen on mtb was just simply too damn lazy to pedal. If your "handicap" is 5 hamburgers and 10 liters of beer a day, then fu**k it, you don't have right to enjoy the same trails as I do. Change your life style and you will be able to enjoy those trails.
> And honestly, I was really surprised, as at the moment, trails around Livigno and in Dolomites have currently 40 to 60% ration... With e-mtb being at 60% and human powered bikes at 40% (not talking about bike parks but normal trails around mountains). So it's not "who cares about bike or two". Considering there's few 1000 riders in Livigno every day, 50+% of that on e-mtb is HUGE number. And as they were never cycling or even going out hiking, their culture and behavior in nature is somehow non-existing.
> PS: It still beats me, why would someone even go for e-mtb... just get MX bike and it's going to be even a bit easier, you won't need to pedal at all.


So much common sense in this post. Thanks.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

fos'l said:


> Fair point. The manufacturers must control their product IMO. Raleigh is placing the category of bike under a clear coat AFAICT. The only other aspect is making the systems unchangeable. DIY kits can't be categorized effectively.
> Possibly the only method for controlling would be a speed limit and should be for all MTB's, maybe 15 mph uphill and 25 mph downhill or something that is agreed upon by the majority of riders.
> My primary goal was to eliminate the repetitious comment that MTB individuals won't help eMTB.


Yes, you should go to a meeting for trail access and bring up the speeds. Tell them you want horses and hikers to yield to you too.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, exactly my point; there's nothing we can say to secure your support; we don't want it; we don't need it; some individuals act like we came here with our hat in our hand when that's not true. I haven't received any responses from e-advocates which state they want MTB support. We fought for MTB access for years and are prepared for eMTB if necessary.
Harry, I call my eMTB an electric bicycle which is the term demanded by CA law. If you don't like it, take it up with the CA legislature. I recommend that every eMTB proponent designate their vehicle with the terminology their state uses.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> JB, exactly my point; there's nothing we can say to secure your support; we don't want it; we don't need it; some individuals act like we came here with our hat in our hand when that's not true.


Not that you had anything to do with it but by insisting that they be classified as a bicycle e-bike advocates are eliciting mountain bikers support whether intended or not. What if early on mountain bikers somehow found a way to get their bikes legally classified as legs, thus gaining admittance to every foot accessible trail in that manner? I know you think that might be an absurd example but it is similar to the back door approach being implemented now, which seems shady at best to me.

And not that you probably care but you could (would) secure my support and I'm sure thousands of others too if only you wouldn't insist that they were bicycles and lobby for access as an independent entity. There are hundreds of existing trails nationwide that would crossover nicely.

I guarantee none of these "anti e-bike" threads would exist if that were the case, simple as that.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I ride 3 ebikes, 2 mtn bikes, cyclocross and road bike. I love to ride. I believe the average knucklehead is going to rip his mtn bike as he would an ebike. I also believe he's not gonna fork out the big buck for these ebikes. I support IMBA and volunteer and don't see an issue with it. Newbies aren't gonna wake up and join the sport because they can ride ebikes! It's a maturity thing. I also ride a "non Harley" klr, but still wave.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Thanks for the responses; I'll just continue to call my electric bicycles what CA has designated and ride.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Fifi: They say people don't believe in heroes anymore. Well damn them! You and me, Max, we're gonna give them back their heroes!

Max: Ah, Fif. Do you really expect me to go for that crap?

Fifi: You gotta admit I sounded good there for a minute, huh?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Just to chime in: the absolutely only reason I follow this forum/topic is when ppl started the 'it's a bicycle by definition and it deserves the same access due to this categorization along with the pretzel logic of 'it's not motorized'". Sorry, but if that's the general stance of your user-group, I'll be there campaigning against that view point locally, legistivatively and socially; I see it as harmful to cycling, access and the general cohesivness of non-motorized trail users.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> And not that you probably care but you could (would) secure my support and I'm sure thousands of others too if only you wouldn't insist that they were bicycles and lobby for access as an independent entity. There are hundreds of existing trails nationwide that would crossover nicely.
> 
> I guarantee none of these "anti e-bike" threads would exist if that were the case, simple as that.


100%


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I wonder how often Organized groups who represent Motorized Mountain Bikes actually show up at local town halls and city council meetings to discuss trail access?

And if they did, what would be the Argument for allowing Motorized Mountain Bikes on the same trails with Hikers, Horses and Pedal Powered Mountain Bikes?

I have yet to see anyone who supports the e-bike movement to give any good reasons why a motorized vehicle should be on these multi-use trails instead of being relegated to OHV trails?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, how many times do I need to say:
1) I'm not lobbying for anything,
2) I'm not saying my eMTB is a bicycle; it's an electric bicycle by CA state mandate,
3) You seem like a thoughtful, nice person but I neither want nor need your support,
4) Whatever rules are in place in CA were defined by manufacturers and approved by the CA legislature without input from me (although there was probably a period when individuals could comment on the proposal; didn't know about it and wouldn't have commented if I did),
5) That should clarify my position, but I'm sure it won't for those who don't matter.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fos'l said:


> JB, how many times do I need to say:
> 1) I'm not lobbying for anything,
> 2) I'm not saying my eMTB is a bicycle; it's an electric bicycle by CA state mandate,
> 3) You seem like a thoughtful, nice person but I neither want nor need your support,
> ...


What about the people who mod their Motorized MTB's to be 10,000 watts and above? Do you think they should have the same trail access as a 750 watt or less?

If so why?

If not why and how would you suggest the authorities keep those bikes off the Multi-use trails?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Finally, a cogent response. In CA anything above 750w isn't an electric bicycle (there are other considerations too for Class 1, 2 & 3 bikes). I'm against any "modded" system or above 750w except where ICE vehicles are allowed. I'm in favor of Class 1 bikes being allowed on trails, and will state my position if there are meetings relative to this. Very difficult to keep these vehicles off multi-use trails in CA since there are too few Rangers. If there was adequate policing, the only feasible method (TO ME AT THIS TIME) would be speed limits.

Again, these are my opinions (which were requested); I'm not lobbying for anything. I fought for MTB access with fellow riders in the past and will attempt the same with e-riders if it comes to that in the future.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Walt said:


> I'd be happy to have e-bike folks on my side... if they made an honest effort to grapple with/solve this basic conundrum:
> -Speed is the #1 problem for existing mountain bike access.
> -Adding power adds speed.
> 
> ...


Dear Walt,

I wonder what planet you live on when you say that it won't be possible to distinguish a 3000 watt Ebike vs one that is < 750 watts. Clearly you know very little about electric motors, rare earth neodumium boron magnet material, motion controllers, and the law of conservation of energy.

IF you have any proof that this could or will happen, please direct me to the magnet technology / grade of rare earth magnet that will allow this to happen anytime soon. It doesn't exist and the periodic table of elements hasn't changed much as far as I know. It is true that magnet technology is always getting slightly better ...but we are talking very slight differences and improvements over the last decads. If you've got a 3000 watt motor, you also have to have a battery large enough to draw that kind of current and it must get bigger as a result.

Battery technology (I hope) will evolve much faster and I predict this is where ebikes may get lighter and more range in the next decade or so. However unless there is some discovery of some new magnet material (that doesn't cost $1 million to make), this is a myth being spread around that is really ridiculous.

The other premise you make is the programming of the controller...sure, re-program away. That's not such a brilliant or realistic idea beyond a certain point. If you program a motor to run at or always near it's peak capabilities, it will run at very poor efficiency, which will kill the battery very fast, which makes no sense.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> What about the people who mod their Motorized MTB's to be 10,000 watts and above? Do you think they should have the same trail access as a 750 watt or less?
> 
> If so why?
> 
> If not why and how would you suggest the authorities keep those bikes off the Multi-use trails?


You won't have to keep them off the trails because Mountain bikers won't realistically ride such a 10,000 watt bike. I certainly would not. Way too heavy and range is way too low. Once you get past a 45 lb bike in my opinion, the Feel of a "bike" goes away. Why even put pedals on such power?, I'd just put pegs on it and ride moto trails, or since the battery technology is not there yet for such power, far from it, I'd just ride my MX bike on MX trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> JB, how many times do I need to say:


Well I did qualify myself-



J.B. Weld said:


> Not that you had anything to do with it ......And not that you probably care


You seem reasonable as well and of course I have no beef you personally, just disagree. Anyway the general stance on the pro side seems to consist of arguing semantics of what is and isn't a motor, and that since the law says they are non-motorized and someone took the time to bolt some pedals onto them that they have every right to be on any mtb accessible trail.

It's just all too fuzzy for me, be it 100 watts or 1000 watts it's only an arbitrary number some bureaucrat dreamed up which is more or less meaningless except for one aspect, precedence. When it becomes clear to me that the letter of the law states that they (electric bikes) are on their own as far as trail access goes I promise I'll shut up and accept whatever the consequences may be.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bikedriver said:


> Dear Walt,
> 
> I wonder what planet you live on when you say that it won't be possible to distinguish a 3000 watt Ebike vs one that is < 750 watts. Clearly you know very little about electric motors, rare earth neodumium boron magnet material, motion controllers, and the law of conservation of energy.
> 
> ...


 One cannot tell by looking, 250, 750, 1500 watts. They already make fake stickers to cover up excess watt bikes. An extra battery, a tweak to the chip/controller/board and you are there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bikedriver said:


> You won't have to keep them off the trails because Mountain bikers won't realistically ride such a 10,000 watt bike.


Clarification- mountain bikers ride 0 watt bikes.

Once you add a motor, it's not a mountain bike anymore.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bikedriver said:


> Dear Walt,I wonder what planet you live on when you say that it won't be possible to distinguish a 3000 watt Ebike vs one that is < 750 watts.


Maybe if you know what you are looking at, but the average person could never tell these apart.

Fatbike/350w/4000w


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

JB, Harry, Klurejr (probably others), THANK YOU; you've taught me (although I'm a slow learner and still struggle) that we can disagree, but not be disagreeable. These threads have been really helpful to me if for only that reason, although I've gleaned many other insights from you.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Clarification- mountain bikers ride 0 watt bikes.
> 
> Once you add a motor, it's not a mountain bike anymore.


Maybe to you, but not to me and I know many I ride with would agree.

Clarification 1. A "Bike" is anything with 2 wheels. My KTM is a bike, so is my montessa, so is my ducatti. Really doesn't matter what you call them, they are all "bikes" to me so speak for yourself.

Clarification 2. Mountain bikers ride their bikes from 1 - about 200 watts. 0 watts = 0 motion. A human can easily be defined as a "motor" , check webster's dictionary.

Clarification 3. My mountain bike is the exact same bike with or without the motor. And I ride mountains with it. Therefore, it's my mountain bike.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bikedriver said:


> You won't have to keep them off the trails because Mountain bikers won't realistically ride such a 10,000 watt bike. I certainly would not. Way too heavy and range is way too low. Once you get past a 45 lb bike in my opinion, the Feel of a "bike" goes away. Why even put pedals on such power?, I'd just put pegs on it and ride moto trails, or since the battery technology is not there yet for such power, far from it, I'd just ride my MX bike on MX trails.


I agree with you, the returns diminish once you get above @2-3Kw. I don't think there will be a ton of those ebikes, but there are people who aren't that concerned about range and just want to rip around their local park for an hour or so on a tangent or cyclone. Most of the illegal bikes will be <2kw. Which won't be the norm by any means, but will be enough to make their presence felt.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Maybe if you know what you are looking at, but the average person could never tell these apart.
> 
> Fatbike/350w/4000w


Pretty clear to me, just look at the hub in that 4000 watt bike, it's massive. Probably weighs a ton too.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Harryman said:


> I agree with you, the returns diminish once you get above @2-3Kw. I don't think there will be a ton of those ebikes, but there are people who aren't that concerned about range and just want to rip around their local park for an hour or so on a tangent or cyclone. Most of the illegal bikes will be <2kw. Which won't be the norm by any means, but will be enough to make their presence felt.


Yep. There will always be exceptions, I agree. But it won't be the norm.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bikedriver said:


> Clarification 1. A "Bike" is anything with 2 wheels. My KTM is a bike, so is my montessa, so is my ducatti. Really doesn't matter what you call them, they are all "bikes" to me so speak for yourself.


Two wheels? Check











Bikedriver said:


> Clarification 2. Mountain bikers ride their bikes from 1 - about 200 watts. 0 watts = 0 motion. A human can easily be defined as a "motor" , check webster's dictionary.


Has motor? Check











Bikedriver said:


> Clarification 3. My mountain bike is the exact same bike with or without the motor. And I ride mountains with it. Therefore, it's my mountain bike.


Two wheels + motor? Check


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

leeboh said:


> One cannot tell by looking, 250, 750, 1500 watts. They already make fake stickers to cover up excess watt bikes. An extra battery, a tweak to the chip/controller/board and you are there.


Yeah OK, I agree it is tough to tell 250 watts from 750 watts, but I don't agree with you > 1000 watts because the rider can certainly tell a very big difference when they pick one up and ride one. I just don't see the majority of bikers wanting more than 750 watts because of the weight that will/must come along with it. I don't. Not interested, given that choice, I'll ride an MX bike instead. Sure, some will, but it will be rare.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bikedriver said:


> You won't have to keep them off the trails because Mountain bikers won't realistically ride such a 10,000 watt bike. I certainly would not. Way too heavy and range is way too low. Once you get past a 45 lb bike in my opinion, the Feel of a "bike" goes away. Why even put pedals on such power?, I'd just put pegs on it and ride moto trails, or since the battery technology is not there yet for such power, far from it, I'd just ride my MX bike on MX trails.


http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/foes-mutz-meets-lefty-plus-14-000ws-power-1018865.html






I found both of those items here on MTBR.

They are already here and with the way technology is going these days the Batteries are only going to get smaller and more efficient, Look at what Tesla has done in the last decade. How can you honestly say this is not realistic?

What happens when a 10k watt Motorized Mountain Bike looks exactly the same as a 750 watt or less Motorized Mountain Bike? We cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend that this is not the future.

What scares the MTB Purists is when the Land Managers start to see this stuff and just start blanket closing all the trails we know and love to anyone on 2 wheels. Trails have already been blanket banned in Area's because of idiots going too fast for Strava times, and then the Land managers learn about strava, look up the lands they manage and see these times and speeds listed and they fear for the Hikers and Equestrians using those trails, and then it is too easy to just Ban all 2 wheeled travel. For many of us it is better to just Ban all Motorized Vehicles on Multi-Use Trails because no good alternatives have been offered, either by those who ride the Motorized Mountain Bikes or by those who build and sell them.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Two wheels? Check
> 
> View attachment 1086019
> 
> ...


Cool, is that the MTB you ride? Well, IT could have 3 or 4 wheels too, I know a few handicapped people that ride those "bikes" too.

Or wait...then there is the unicycle...one wheel.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/foes-mutz-meets-lefty-plus-14-000ws-power-1018865.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And how much does that Stealth Bomber weigh? What's the battery range? Come on now. 99% of people that want that kind of power are going to ride MX bikes. It's cool but such technology is very far away from competing with combustion so why worry about it.

Why even put pedals on these "bikes?" Why not ride a trials MX or standard MX bike instead? Most like me, do. A Trials MX bike is the same weight or less with way more power and range. I don't see trials MX bikes all over the trails even though they are awesome trail bikes (and less expensive).

10,000 wattt MTB will never look or more importantly, feel, like a 750 watt one. Its like 100 lbs+ if I recall correctly.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bikedriver said:


> Maybe to you, but not to me and I know many I ride with would agree.
> 
> Clarification 1. A "Bike" is anything with 2 wheels. My KTM is a bike, so is my montessa, so is my ducatti. Really doesn't matter what you call them, they are all "bikes" to me so speak for yourself.


"Bike" in the case of 'mountain bike' is a contraction for 'bicycle'. Your KTM is not a bicycle. Neither is your Montessa, Ducati, or any e-bike you may decide to buy. Sure, you can play silly semantic games all you want if you're willing to put aside any shred of common sense, but since I'm not from California, I haven't found myself willing to complete ignore reality when it comes to blurring the lines between something that's strictly human powered and something that is very, very clearly NOT.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

More semantics from the motorized crowd.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tiretracks said:


> More semantics from the motorized crowd.


While it might be a good way to clog up and derail a discussion on a forum, it gets you absolutely nowhere in the real world. It can actually work against you, as you're likely to just come across as cocky, flippant and purposefully obtuse and difficult to deal with. All things that aren't likely to help you out much when dealing with land managers, local boards, and the like.

But hey, if you want to say your Ninja is a mountain bike and 'prove' it by citing Dictionary.com, feel free to look stupid.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bikedriver said:


> 99% of people that want that kind of power are going to ride MX bikes.


They will if they think they can go hit the local MTB trails on them. Which is the whole problem.

250W/15mph is pretty much ok with me. It is obvious that nobody is going to limit themselves to that though, even in this thread!

-Walt


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

Bikedriver said:


> And how much does that Stealth Bomber weigh? What's the battery range? Come on now. 99% of people that want that kind of power are going to ride MX bikes. It's cool but such technology is very far away from competing with combustion so why worry about it.
> 
> Why even put pedals on these "bikes?" Why not ride a trials MX or standard MX bike instead? Most like me, do. A Trials MX bike is the same weight or less with way more power and range. I don't see trials MX bikes all over the trails even though they are awesome trail bikes (and less expensive).
> 
> 10,000 wattt MTB will never look or more importantly, feel, like a 750 watt one. Its like 100 lbs+ if I recall correctly.


The stealth bomber is one of the likely causes of the E-Bike ban in ACT nature parks. I wouldn't dismiss them as a non-issue.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> While it might be a good way to clog up and derail a discussion on a forum, it gets you absolutely nowhere in the real world. It can actually work against you, as you're likely to just come across as cocky, flippant and purposefully obtuse and difficult to deal with. All things that aren't likely to help you out much when dealing with land managers, local boards, and the like.
> 
> But hey, if you want to say your Ninja is a mountain bike and 'prove' it by citing Dictionary.com, feel free to look stupid.


I find this baffling as well. It's the exact opposite way you'd want to approach a neutral party observing this debate/controversy, since it just makes you look petty and cynical.

Instead of this silly "everything with 2 wheels is a bike" and "a motor isn't a motor in this state" crap, why not talk about what the realistic limits are on speed/power to preserve the existing user experience/access and how to enforce those limits, while admitting that in fact e-bikes are a new/different thing?

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bikedriver said:


> And how much does that Stealth Bomber weigh? What's the battery range? Come on now. 99% of people that want that kind of power are going to ride MX bikes. It's cool but such technology is very far away from competing with combustion so why worry about it.
> 
> Why even put pedals on these "bikes?" Why not ride a trials MX or standard MX bike instead? Most like me, do. A Trials MX bike is the same weight or less with way more power and range. I don't see trials MX bikes all over the trails even though they are awesome trail bikes (and less expensive).
> 
> 10,000 wattt MTB will never look or more importantly, feel, like a 750 watt one. Its like 100 lbs+ if I recall correctly.


I wholeheartedly disagree with you, these kinds of high powered Motorized Mountain Bikes are just the beginning. The technology is going to get better and better, the motors more powerful and the batteries smaller and lighter. A 10k watt E-Bike was unthinkable 10 years ago, but electric vehicle technology has come a long way in the last 10 years and if you think we have hit peak Electric capabilities, you are very wrong.

As this technology becomes more common, which it is doing now, the costs will drop.

Sure, you personally might not ever buy one, and I agree a gasoline powered bike might be better for true OHV use, but there will still be those who want this sort of technology and because it is a "bike" they WILL ride them on Multi-Use Trails. How do you propose that gets managed?

Take a basic scenario for the area I weekly ride in, Calavera Nature Preserve, Oceanside/Carlsbad CA. Years ago it was a haven for all sorts of OHV access, trucks, motorcycles, quads... then the City and the State came and said no more motorized vehicles, Hikers and Bicyclists only. And for the last 20 years that is how it has been. Now lets say some trail users start buying high powered Motorized Mountain Bikes and go our in the area and do some trail damage from spinning tires? The "rangers" who patrol are volunteers with no authority to ticket anyone. They will simply report the damage and what they see to the City and State agencies they report to and then what? Does all 2 wheeled travel get banned because it is not easy to tell at a quick glance or from a distance if someones MTB has a motor or not?

I can agree that perhaps a 250watt bike is probably not going ot cause any issues, but those are just the beginning and to say otherwise is foolish.

What this industry cannot handle is for more area's to get blanket closures and then for our advocate groups like IMBA to have to fight to get access back for pedal power.

How would you propose Land Managers approach this? How can they regulate between a lower powered motor and a higher powered one? The easiest approach will always be a full ban on all 2 wheel travel, and that would be a travesty.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bikedriver said:


> Why even put pedals on these "bikes?"


I wonder about that too, why _would_ they bother to bolt pedals to those motorbikes? Hmmm............


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

They way I see it, if mountain bikers are dumb enough to agree that motorized e-bikes should be considered the same as a mountain bike, they deserve what they get. If it happens it happens, but I won't support it.

You think you can verify 250 watts? Even if you could, do you think 250 watts is going to satisfy the e-bike crowd? How about 750? 1000? Think again. 

Other than trying to horn in with standard MTBs, I have nothing against e-bikes. And whether I do or not is irrelevant. They are coming. They will change off-road biking more than we can imagine right now.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Bikedriver said:


> And how much does that Stealth Bomber weigh? What's the battery range? Come on now. 99% of people that want that kind of power are going to ride MX bikes. It's cool but such technology is very far away from competing with combustion so why worry about it.
> 
> Why even put pedals on these "bikes?" Why not ride a trials MX or standard MX bike instead? Most like me, do. A Trials MX bike is the same weight or less with way more power and range. I don't see trials MX bikes all over the trails even though they are awesome trail bikes (and less expensive).
> 
> 10,000 wattt MTB will never look or more importantly, feel, like a 750 watt one. Its like 100 lbs+ if I recall correctly.


I just watched a documentary about the race up Pikes Peak, it was won on an electric motorcycle. I think the power to weight ratio is here for street bikes. I doubt it is far behind for electric bikes. I mean bicycle when I say that and you know what I mean by that, don't be an idiot


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> "Bike" in the case of 'mountain bike' is a contraction for 'bicycle'. Your *KTM* is not a bicycle.


Kawasaki makes an inferior MX *bike*

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree with you, these kinds of high powered Motorized Mountain Bikes are just the beginning. The technology is going to get better and better, the motors more powerful and the batteries smaller and lighter. A 10k watt E-Bike was unthinkable 10 years ago, but electric vehicle technology has come a long way in the last 10 years and if you think we have hit peak Electric capabilities, you are very wrong.
> 
> As this technology becomes more common, which it is doing now, the costs will drop.
> 
> ...


Agree with you and those individuals who have responded respectfully, this is a big potential problem. Wish I could help you, but banning ebikes "PROBABLY" won't make much difference in many areas if the rules can't be enforced. Rode today in a local park and didn't see one other individual on the trails, neither hiker, biker nor equestrian although there were sights and smells that evidenced the presence of horses earlier in the day. My problem has been that I'm somewhat blinded by my environment and extrapolate to places which are much different.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I just watched a documentary about the race up Pikes Peak, it was won on an electric motorcycle. I think the power to weight ratio is here for street bikes. I doubt it is far behind for electric bikes. I mean bicycle when I say that and you know what I mean by that, don't be an idiot


It's a battery problem. If you want power, you give up range, if you want range, you give up power. It's fairly easy to make motors smaller and lighter, either by materials or how you are engaging that power, but until battery tech improves, you're looking at 6-10 lbs of battery.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Bikedriver said:


> Yeah OK, I agree it is tough to tell 250 watts from 750 watts, but I don't agree with you > 1000 watts because the rider can certainly tell a very big difference when they pick one up and ride one. I


ummm, the point is that that a ranger or authority or impacted trail user cannot tell by quick glance, no one is disputing that the guy on the freaking bike can tell the difference. I think there may be a language/nuanced speech barrier here.

For you: how can we police trails when motorized are in play if we are limiting aspects of the motor? It is not simple or pratical.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Got passed by a dude on an e-bike while I was motor pacing behind my wife's car today. 

He was 6'3", 250+, and was on a Bulls 29er e-bike. No helmet.

I was doing 35mph and he caught and passed us on a low-grade climb.





Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

primoz said:


> Reality is, that until now, I didn't really see a single handicapped person on e-bike, and I saw quite few on normal, human powered mtb, and every single one I have seen on mtb was just simply too damn lazy to pedal. If your "handicap" is 5 hamburgers and 10 liters of beer a day, then fu**k it, you don't have right to enjoy the same trails as I do. Change your life style and you will be able to enjoy those trails.


So let's base our laws on your moral code about weight and conditioning and if the guy is in condition and riding a e-mtb, he's lazy?

I would say access to public land should be based on impact, not ubermensh values. The e-mtb is a choice, and no one is making you take it. If those who do don't hurt you, then why the interrogation?

Many equestrians are tubby too, should we ban them?

Another interesting popular anti-E position: because somebody might cheat, we can't trust restrictions.

Seriously? I guess we should ban everything which needs a restriction, because the average guy could not tell?

I have seen one baseless argument after another to pretend e-mtbs are motorcycles but this one beggars belief and the whole history of judeo christian regulation.

The anti-E faction knows one thing: they don't want e-mtbs on "their" trail. Any argument that will prevent that is perfectly fine.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> The anti-E faction knows one thing: they don't want e-mtbs on "their" trail. Any argument that will prevent that is perfectly fine.


Your paranoia is showing.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

fos'l said:


> Agree with you and those individuals who have responded respectfully, this is a big potential problem. Wish I could help you, but banning ebikes "PROBABLY" won't make much difference in many areas if the rules can't be enforced. Rode today in a local park and didn't see one other individual on the trails, neither hiker, biker nor equestrian although there were sights and smells that evidenced the presence of horses earlier in the day. My problem has been that I'm somewhat blinded by my environment and extrapolate to places which are much different.


Props for recognizing that. It's a common issue across the board. I wish uhoh7 would recognize that.

I see my own view bubbling up in posts here and there, but it gets lost in the acrimony. E-bikes are neither fish nor fowl. This essential concept needs to be recognized, and they need to be considered on their own attributes. There are trail networks where they aren't appropriate due to impact on other users, rather than (non)impact to the trails themselves. And there are other trails closed to (traditional) motorized uses where e-bikes would be just fine.

I have ridden one. My friend's shop got a S-Works Turbo Levo and I took it for a ride.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> So let's base our laws on your moral code about weight and conditioning and if the guy is in condition and riding a e-mtb, he's lazy?


Absolutely not. But why to fool anyone e-mtb equals mtb. It's not. It's motor bike. And if you have access open to motor bikes, it's fine with me. If it's open to human powered vehicles only, then e-mtb doesn't fit into that category. It's quite simple, without my "moral code about weight and conditioning" involved


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

primoz said:


> Absolutely not. But why to fool anyone e-mtb equals mtb. It's not. It's motor bike. And if you have access open to motor bikes, it's fine with me. If it's open to human powered vehicles only, then e-mtb doesn't fit into that category. It's quite simple, without my "moral code about weight and conditioning" involved


You consider a horse a human powered vehicle?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

evasive said:


> Props for recognizing that. It's a common issue across the board. I wish uhoh7 would recognize that.
> 
> I see my own view bubbling up in posts here and there, but it gets lost in the acrimony. E-bikes are neither fish nor fowl. This essential concept needs to be recognized, and they need to be considered on their own attributes. There are trail networks where they aren't appropriate due to impact on other users, rather than (non)impact to the trails themselves. And there are other trails closed to (traditional) motorized uses where e-bikes would be just fine.
> 
> I have ridden one. My friend's shop got a S-Works Turbo Levo and I took it for a ride.


I have my own opinions, but on the ground I'm a compromiser and adapter. It's not "my way or the highway."

I strongly favor the swiss model with 20mph restriction as the most practical and fair option for public lands, but I appreciate your view


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Horses/equestrians *probably* should not have access to a lot of the places they do because of their impacts, but they earned their place at the table and are an established and respected (in most cases) user group. 

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Horses/equestrians *probably* should not have access to a lot of the places they do because of their impacts, but they earned their place at the table and are an established and respected (in most cases) user group.


In other words your metrics for access to PUBLIC land are totally arbitrary with no common levels of impact or source of "power", but a healthy respect for political influence.

Out here in the wilds they call that corruption.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> In other words your metrics for access to PUBLIC land are totally arbitrary with no common levels of impact or source of "power", but a healthy respect for political influence.
> 
> Out here in the wilds they call that cold reality.


There ya go.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> There ya go.


Please take credit for your own views, aka cynical hypocrisy 

Though misquoting me intentionally is a popular sport here


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Please take credit for your own views
> 
> Though misquoting me intentionally is a popular sport here


Just correcting some tortured logic. I used to live in Idaho and I have to tell you that I don't remember anyone in that state that would use misnomers, tortured logic and simple fly in your face stupidity on the level that you do. Idahoans must be proud.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Nobody said the world was fair, but the horse folks were basically here first. You're here _last_ and are going to be held to a high standard whether you like it or not, just as mountain bikes in general are. C'est la vie.

-Walt


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm thinking of having Walt build me an e-bike frame that I can hide a KDX 175 engine under the Electrolux fake motor cover, and have GMC noise cancelling software installed to cancel the two stroke engine noise. The smoke screen it makes can be left alone as It will kill off all Zika carrying mosquitoes!

I wish to have a 36er rear wheel and a 20 inch front wheel so I see over the dashboard, similar to my Dad's old Buick. I want to ride this vehicle up the middle of shallow rivers as it would be wrong to use it on trails.

How long of an extension cord would I need?
Thanks for your help!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm thinking of having Walt build me an e-bike frame that I can hide a KDX 175 engine under the Electrolux fake motor cover, and have GMC noise cancelling software installed to cancel the two stroke engine noise. The smoke screen it makes can be left alone as It will kill off all Zika carrying mosquitoes!
> 
> I wish to have a 36er rear wheel and a 20 inch front wheel so I see over the dashboard, similar to my Dad's old Buick. I want to ride this vehicle up the middle of shallow rivers as it would be wrong to use it on trails.
> 
> ...


You may be a troll, but at least you have some imagination


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WTF is with crying 'troll' anytime someone disagrees with you? 

*****.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> WTF is with crying 'troll' anytime someone disagrees with you?
> 
> *****.


Your sensitivity to name calling is pretty funny, since you never hesitate to smear anyone who disagrees with you 

And then you lord your community service over them as if that entitles you to abuse and bully others 

One more stinky flow trail from you, sloppymo


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> You may be a troll, but at least you have some imagination


You know so little. NEPMTBA Actually sells E-Bikes. He is not a troll, just pointing out that you are the one trolling.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

uhoh7 said:


> I strongly favor the swiss model with 20mph restriction as the most practical and fair option for public lands, but I appreciate your view


Unless you have a link to new regs, AFAIK it's still 15.5mph in switzerland for what they consider a pedelec.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Your sensitivity to name calling is pretty funny, since you never hesitate to smear anyone who disagrees with you
> 
> And then you lord your community service over them as if that entitles you to abuse and bully others
> 
> One more stinky flow trail from you, sloppymo


It's called a pump track, you clueless poser.
Every town should be so lucky as to have someone donate hundreds of hours of their own time to build one for the local kids. On public recreation land that up until a few years ago, no one was even allowed ride a bicycle until myself and a friend or two finished our years-long fight to get even a single pass-thru trail approved for mtb access. Fast forward to now and the committees that wouldn't even think about allowing bike trails on public property in town are asking us to build more trail than we could in our lifetimes. When they ask "hey, you think you could do something for the kids" and offer carte blanch for tools and dirt, and let me pick the spot...yeah, pretty stinky. No one's having any fun down there.

Yeah, I'll lord that **** over clueless inexperienced hypocrites such as yourself any chance I get. In my world, it's "Put up or shut up" and "Those that dig, decide".


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> "Those that dig, decide".


Word.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> You consider a horse a human powered vehicle?


Not, but luckily at least on this side of the ocean, mtb trails are not automatically open for horse riding. Some are, some are not, and some are open also for cars/motorbikes. So it's really not important under what category horses fit, as either way, they don't fit under mtb.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

uhoh7 said:


> I have my own opinions, but on the ground I'm a compromiser and adapter. It's not "my way or the highway."
> 
> I strongly favor the swiss model with 20mph restriction as the most practical and fair option for public lands, but I appreciate your view


Great. I didn't claim or mean to imply that you were. What I was implying is that your experiences in the Idaho backcountry on trails that are mostly moto-legal doesn't have much relevance for discussions about dense front country trail networks, or state/local parks in more populous parts of the country.

I can see an ebike being a fun, low impact, low noise way to explore a lot of country. There are a number of big loops we ride that motos share, and I'd like to try them with an ebike some day. That's not the same thing as riding one on the local trails full of dog walkers and runners.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

uhoh7 said:


> Your sensitivity to name calling is pretty funny, since you never hesitate to smear anyone who disagrees with you
> 
> And then you lord your community service over them as if that entitles you to abuse and bully others
> 
> One more stinky flow trail from you, sloppymo


 Um, way out of line here. Trail work gets you seat at the table. MA is not some boonies in ID. We actually have people here with trail access issues, not just hicks and cows. Ok, rural folk and livestock. Trail work, community cooperation, working toward common goals and teamwork, familiar to you? Mt bikers are now the go to resource for trail work, we have experience and the skills to get problems solved. Not lording over anything, mt bikers like to ride good trails. That's all. Boots on the ground democracy. Got your boots on the ground, shovel in hand?


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> In my world, it's "Put up or shut up" and "Those that dig, decide".


I'm totally going to petition our town to put an eMTB park in at Muddy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Wife and I were on our MTB's exploring a large tract of private land with a friend riding an eMTB today. He checked before leaving and they said Class 1 was legal. We encountered many other riders who were aware of his "power" since there are many scenic stopping places on the route, and nobody said anything. Not trying to be argumentative, but this is what I mean by doing it alone. If we're prohibited, fine, but more and more places are opening up. What will happen next; who knows?


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

People I met on the trail while on my Turbo are nothing but welcoming and accepting. The opposite of what happens on this forum. Just further proof that the internet is not the real world. 

Dean


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

If you are riding responsibly on a legal trail, why would anybody give you a hard time? If you're on an illegal trail, maybe most people prefer to avoid conflict. I am not one of those people.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> Nobody said the world was fair, but the horse folks were basically here first. You're here _last_ and are going to be held to a high standard whether you like it or not, just as mountain bikes in general are. C'est la vie.
> 
> -Walt


The 'horses are were here first' comment comes up a lot when justifying discrimination. How about we close some roads for horses and pedestrians, they were here first. The fact that dead people were forced to practice an a tivity is a poor rationale for forcing that practice on people who could choose differently. For the record I have nothing against horses and pet one on a regular basis.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I have said many times on here in my 3yrs of riding my e bike in many states in the Midwest in most every encounter, with other riders have been not just positive but over whelming positive . I mean high fives Mt bikers saying that's the coolest you built that your self??, I was just in WV riding Mountwood came out of the woods right in front of the park ranger rode over to him started talking to the guy showed him my fender twisted and my SPEED controller just hanging on pointed my muddy bloody leg we laughed . No were have I ever encountered any thing like the hate Tiretracks and others spew on this forum ,yep that's a fact!! thank god I don't have to ride or even be in the same parking lot. With the likes of Tiretrack and his buddies spewing ther hate in reality the e hate seems to be confined to riders on this forum.


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

Maybe a bit of reality check is needed here. 

This forum is a sensible place to discuss things like e-bikes and trail politics.
Why would you assume everyone would take that attitude on a ride? There's a time and a place for different behaviour. Most people understand this. 

Just because I'm interested in discussing trail politics here, doesn't mean I'm interested in discussing them when I'm out riding.

Second point, if you were riding legally, why would anyone have an issue in what you were doing anyway?

Methinks a few people here are trying for a bit of persecution complex.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

R95, think on the bright side; we've had some really pertinent comments from thoughtful, decent individuals. They've helped me understand their positions better; some have been extremely considerate even though the existence of ebikes may compromise their MTB access. The fact that there are some vitriolic individuals or commenters like the above who dispenses tripe that defies credibility is part of the equation. Other thing you may encounter is a private message from a real man that is sent just to call you a name.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

lunktung said:


> Um, way out of line here. Trail work gets you seat at the table. MA is not some boonies in ID. We actually have people here with trail access issues, not just hicks and cows. Ok, rural folk and livestock. Trail work, community cooperation, working toward common goals and teamwork, familiar to you? Mt bikers are now the go to resource for trail work, we have experience and the skills to get problems solved. Not lording over anything, mt bikers like to ride good trails. That's all. Boots on the ground democracy. Got your boots on the ground, shovel in hand?


You have no clue where I live, and I suspect that holds true for a number of subjects about which you have strong opinions.

L1037339 by unoh7, on Flickr

500 miles of local ST and you think I am not aware of usage and management issues? At the moment there are 10,000 guests in the area and the latest mtbs in every crosswalk.

I have cut out more single track with a chainsaw than you may have ever seen. I don't consider that remotely on the level of my work on forest health issues where I created a non-profit to fight MBP attacks on white bark pines in Idaho.

That cost 14k of my own money and 3 hard summers of pouching remote trees at high altitude.

So please, spare us your high self opinion and ignorance about the experience of others, two traits you share with the other fellow 


DSC04391-1 by unoh7, on Flickr


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> So please, spare us your high self opinion and ignorance about the experience of others, two traits you share with the other fellow


Ever consider taking your own advice there Sparky?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree with you, these kinds of high powered Motorized Mountain Bikes are just the beginning. The technology is going to get better and better, the motors more powerful and the batteries smaller and lighter. A 10k watt E-Bike was unthinkable 10 years ago, but electric vehicle technology has come a long way in the last 10 years and if you think we have hit peak Electric capabilities, you are very wrong.
> 
> As this technology becomes more common, which it is doing now, the costs will drop.
> 
> ...


Life is full of regulations, in case you haven't noticed. Most are not enforced, but still people comply, with very few exceptions.

In this case even the exceptions are not going to be a problem if they behave well.

Motos are in a class by themselves because they are loud, hot, and make fumes.

Take those things away all that's left is behavior.

Who are the consistently most dangerous trail users? Fast mtb riders. They are far more dangerous to other users than motos, ironically because you can't hear them.

So why allow mtb riders at all? Because most are nice, and the land is public. 

The e-mtb has identical impact to trails and ears as a mtb. They are safer both for the riders and the other users, I am convinced, after 300 miles.

So I really don't think there is any real reason to ban them, except selfishness. 

And that is a VERY strong motivator.

Ask any pre-school teacher.



slapheadmofo said:


> Ever consider taking your own advice there Sparky?


Do anything but cliches ever come out of your head, sloppymo?

Linktung may not know anything about me or Idaho, but I see he actually does know alot about e-mtbs and shares it, thanks for that 

When it comes to "forest service", I will put mine against yours and his put together.

For adding gashes to the country side I'm sure I can't compete, though 

I know how hikers, horsemen and moto riders feel about those flows to nomo which double the length of most trails and tear up alot more hillside. They are fun on Mtb of course. 

God forbid another device specifically designed to use them becomes available.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> The e-mtb has identical impact to trails and ears as a mtb.


Your opinion, not a fact.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

uhoh7 said:


> You have no clue where I live, and I suspect that holds true for a number of subjects about which you have strong opinions.
> 
> L1037339 by unoh7, on Flickr
> 
> ...


 Trail work, awesome. If every trail user put in say just 10 hours a year, so many issues could be eliminated. I stand by my rural statement. ID, 1.6 million residents, with 83,000 sq. miles. MA, 6.6 million with 7,800 sq miles of land, round figures. Seems there are some differences in the 'states in regards to land use issues and such. And what works for the rural parts of the US might not fit well in the crowded east. Just saying. MA does not have wilderness or national parks( maybe some houses or such) in which to pedal. Mostly state parks and forests. Lots of local town areas and private properties, all with their own rules, regulations and guidelines.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Trail work, awesome. If every trail user put in say just 10 hours a year, so many issues could be eliminated. I stand by my rural statement. ID, 1.6 million residents, with 83,000 sq. miles. MA, 6.6 million with 7,800 sq miles of land, round figures. Seems there are some differences in the 'states in regards to land use issues and such. And what works for the rural parts of the US might not fit well in the crowded east. Just saying. MA does not have wilderness or national parks( maybe some houses or such) in which to pedal. Mostly state parks and forests. Lots of local town areas and private properties, all with their own rules, regulations and guidelines.


I confuse you with linktung LOL

No worries. I get grumpy when some people (not you) join the e-bike forum to tell us all "nobody needs one"  Nobody "needs" a mtb either 

At the moment, high season, we have very heavy trail use close to town. You can ride right out of the center of town to a number of great loops, and of course those routes continue much further than anyone could ride in a day.

This has been a mountain biking town since the 80s. Scott started in this town. Nearly everyone has one now, or has ridden quite a bit in the past. But there has been quite an explosion in the past 5 years, many trail rebuilds for mtbs and GIRLS!!! Tons of girls...OK young and not so young women riding.

Besides being easy on the eyes, they are alot more polite on the trail too 

Anyway, as a result of both local interest (including guests) and huge mega-fires, we have had, I'd wager, the most extensive trail building campaign in the country around our town. Many groups, some local and some from out of town have been supervised by pros to build BIG reroutes of a bunch of the major climbs. So much has been done, led by so many different characters that you get to see a ton of different ways to build trails, some of them which drive other users crazy LOL

Usually I am the one defending the meandering routes, which are really fun on both mtbs and trials motos, but are stupid turney for horses, hikers and normal motos.

More than half of the best mtb trails are motorized. It's very rare to see a moto though. They self regulate to the less traveled areas because the traffic gets tedious.

Oh, and there's the 3k vertical ski mountain with lifts and many flow trails which are right at the edge of town, but most of us prefer au natural 

Bike paths? 30 miles of paved bike paths.

L1013191 by unoh7, on Flickr

My best friend, who turned me on to the Haibike All Mtn Plus, he has one too, his son is Idaho State Pump Park Champion, and of course that event takes place here. 

DSC07979 by unoh7, on Flickr


L1051347 by unoh7, on Flickr

Anyway, today, I doubt any place in the country will have more mtbs on the ground than us. The town is packed to the rafters.  10 bike shops renting...including turbo levos: 60 bucks for four hours LOL

This pace will last till early september. Then it will be just us 

Sticks? Idaho has plenty of places you could call "the sticks", though we don't use that term. Not here. Hemingway finished "For Whom the Bell Tolls" a few miles from my house in 1939. Romney hired Clint to do his talk with the chair here. Sticks?

Just not accurate. 

Besides that it's a stupid term anyway, offensive to many rural people 

Take the high road, when you can 


L1019247 by unoh7, on Flickr


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> So I really don't think there is any real reason to ban them, except selfishness.


I think you mistake me, Land Managers, the ones who regulate how we use public lands are the ones that we need to fear. They have both the authority and power to ban either e-MTB or ALL MTB access to the trails we all ride and love, regardless of how much personal time and effort we may have put into maintaining those very trails.

Here in San Diego I have seen it happen more than once. In an area that is a tiny fraction of the size of Idaho we have over 3 million people living, and due to the great weather and general health of people it is a very out-doors activity kind of place to live. The trails we use are highly traveled, every day of the week at all times of the day.

I am not being selfish, I think e-MTB's can have a place on the same Multi-use trails, but like any land access we have to worry about the idiots that ruin it for the rest of us. Strava has not been a friend to trail access and that has nothing to do with having a motor or not. Like many others, I am scared of what is going to happen to my already limited trail access if users start riding high powered Motorized Bikes on the local trails and it gets the notice of Land Managers.

The biggest issue here is Manufacturers and customers of e-Bikes are not sitting at the table when Land Access meetings are being held, heck it is hard enough to get MTB riders to support these sorts of meetings. And without the E-Bike crowd there to help the Land Managers to come up with a good solution for shared access, the Land Mangers are going to be more apt to just Blanket Ban Access since it is the path of least resistance.

Will this be the case in Every area? No. Will it be the case in more populated area's that see very high Multi-use trail access every single day of the week, very likely.

Look at how a few idiots traveling over 20mph totally ruined access for other users in California:
http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park

These kinds of closures are the future of our sport if the e-bike crowd and Manufacturers do not start advocating for the e-Bike sport.

No one can put there head in the Sand and just hope the Populace and Land Managers will not notice when Bikes start going 20mph on the Flats and the uphills. If they are willing to Ban bikes because a few idiots went 20mph down a hill on a multi-Use Trail, you can bet they will be willing to ban going 20MPH any where else.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Thank you Klurejr well put for both sides .


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Very thoughtful KJ; possibly why I think that speed limits might be the best way to control crowded areas. Then, of course, the big challenge is ensuring that everyone complies. It would seem that possible loss of the right to ride in a certain area would generate enough peer pressure to maintain order. Notice that I'm not discriminating between MTB and EMTB here since (to me) it applies to both.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Notice that I'm not discriminating between MTB and EMTB here since (to me) it applies to both.


It most certainly does apply to both. For a while the Carlsbad Police Department was out in my local riding area on motorcycles. I stopped to speak with them and found out they were looking for Off-Leash Dogs and "speeders" since the trail Speed limit is 15mph.

On a personal note, I strongly feel that some area's need trails where 20mph+ is acceptable, but I also feel trails like that need to be one direction and closed to hiking and Horseback riding. But that is a matter for our groups to take up with the Land Managers who control that land to get such trails approved.


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## interstater (Dec 13, 2008)

I think people a getting way way ahead of themselves here, my wife is German, and has just bought an ePerformance bike back here with her *to Australia*, she is 56 yrs old, her ePerformance bike is awesome, BUT IF you do not pedal, *it is only pedal assist* you don't move. The more power of the battery you use *to go faster*, the less distance you go. The bike weighs a whopping 21.5 kilos. Thats a lot OF BIKE to have to push back to the car when you are out of power. The top speed is 25 KPH, not miles, much slower than MOST of the riders on the trail, don't mistake all ebikes riders with being idiots, and don't get a minority of idiots, mixed up with the masses of idiots. These bikes have been around for 10 plus years in Europe and up there, they ALL seem to get along together just fine no matter what you ride. Rod from Oz.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Two great post most of our trails are oneway only works great


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

interstater said:


> I think people a getting way way ahead of themselves here, my wife is German, and has just bought an ePerformance bike back here with her *to Australia*, she is 56 yrs old, her ePerformance bike is awesome, BUT IF you do not pedal, *it is only pedal assist* you don't move. The more power of the battery you use *to go faster*, the less distance you go. The bike weighs a whopping 21.5 kilos. Thats a lot OF BIKE to have to push back to the car when you are out of power. The top speed is 25 KPH, not miles, much slower than MOST of the riders on the trail, don't mistake all ebikes riders with being idiots, and don't get a minority of idiots, mixed up with the masses of idiots. These bikes have been around for 10 plus years in Europe and up there, they ALL seem to get along together just fine no matter what you ride. Rod from Oz.


 OK great, go ride in Europe.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

leeboh said:


> OK great, go ride in Europe.


Learn to share the trail with others and respect others user of public trails how about that .


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

rider95 said:


> Learn to share the trail with others and respect others user of public trails how about that .


I think until we get the access issue moved as a topic to the advocacy forum, or a new land use forum, we will not be free of the poisonous discussion climate in this forum.

Nothing will change the minds of the e-nots, and of course nothing is going to change our minds either.

It's also bad for the mtb community to have intolerant hypocrisy about access issues on flagrant display, validating all the logic of the anti-mtb crowd by trying to use it against the e-mtbs.

Let's hope our mods realize this at some point.

Colorado Cliffs by unoh7, on Flickr


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> I have cut out more single track with a chainsaw than you may have ever seen.r


Sure. Sure you have. So you've gone from not having worked on MTB trails to having built thousands of miles of them, all in a few weeks? Yeah, okay.
Tell us another one.

How many rambling, off-topic posts can you make and never even remotely trying to address what is the most important issue regarding e-bike access to the majority of mountain bikers?

Why do you keep avoiding it?

It's obvious to everyone but yourself.


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> I think until we get the access issue moved as a topic to the advocacy forum, or a new land use forum, we will not be free of the poisonous discussion climate in this forum.
> 
> Nothing will change the minds of the e-nots, and of course nothing is going to change our minds either.
> 
> ...


I wonder if the reason we have so many "arguments", is because you have a remarkable knack at completely missing the point.

I rarely meet anyone so intent on ignoring the actual debate, while beating down strawman after strawman.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Martin.au said:


> I wonder if the reason we have so many "arguments", is because you have a remarkable knack at completely missing the point.
> 
> I rarely meet anyone so intent on ignoring the actual debate, while beating down strawman after strawman.


Reminds me of some of the fanatical anti-bike folks I've come up against. Even when you make something crystal clear to them, they can't help but throw all sorts of unrelated **** against the wall to try to muddy things up and avoid the actual topic.

If you can't blind them with your brilliance, try to baffle them with your bull****.

They always seem to be blind as to how obvious this tactic is to everyone else. 
Wanna see it in action again? Watch:

Why should mountain bikers be saddled with the responsibility for an unrelated user group? What is wrong with e-bikes standing or falling on their own merits without dragging mountain bikers into their issues?

Hoping for a picture of a tree, some self-aggrandizement and bunch of whiny passive aggression. And smilies. Lots of smilies. Nothing at all related to the real issues though, of course.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Reminds me of some of the fanatical anti-bike folks I've come up against. Even when you make something crystal clear to them, they can't help but throw all sorts of unrelated **** against the wall to try to muddy things up and avoid the actual topic.
> 
> If you can't blind them with your brilliance, try to baffle them with your bull****.
> 
> ...


Why are e-bikers saddled with the long running misbehavior of mtbs, because e-bikes look the same, sound the same, and the only observable difference in most cases is the e-biker smells better.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Why are e-bikers saddled with the long running misbehavior of mtbs, because e-bikes look the same, sound the same, and the only observable difference in most cases is the e-biker smells better.


Another perfect example of avoiding the issue.

E-bikers have no history as a user group. They also have no sweat equity, no track record, and no established relationships with LMs. What they WANT is to parasitically ride on the coat-tails of real bikes when it comes to access. I really don't care much one way or other how that works out for you guys, but I don't want to have to answer for motorized use, or to have to advocate for it.

What's your opinion on this? Why should mountain bikers have to answer for e-bikes? Or should they? How about we just follow common sense and keep them as separate user groups and everyone deals with their own access issues?


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> I think until we get the access issue moved as a topic to the advocacy forum, or a new land use forum, we will not be free of the poisonous discussion climate in this forum.
> 
> Nothing will change the minds of the e-nots, and of course nothing is going to change our minds either.
> 
> ...


Two things:

1) Changing the forum won't have any affect. Multiple polls/threads here, across different forums, have showed roughly 80% oppose e-bikes on singletrack / multi use trails / etc. If there is a forum here where the users are more favorable to e-bikes, it probably doesn't reflect the population.

2) You posit that internal strife hurts mtb access movements overall. But, if MTBers partner with hikers against e-bikes, it might solidify MTBs as a respected user group who fights for the cause of protecting our trails, and doing what's sane for all user groups.

Truthfully I align closer to the hikers than I do to the e-bikers on this issue. Go for a hike with your child, or a nephew or someone you care about, or your dog, and you'll feel real concern for their safety around the corner, especially when climbing. Seriously, do it. Everyone who mountain bikes should once every few months, to experience what it's like.

Now add the prospect of having that fear around EVERY corner, up and down, and knowing there could be modified e-bikes with their speed restrictions removed... As a father with small children I'm going with the hiker groups on this one.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Another perfect example of avoiding the issue.
> 
> E-bikers have no history as a user group. They also have no sweat equity, no track record, and no established relationships with LMs. What they WANT is to parasitically ride on the coat-tails of real bikes when it comes to access. I really don't care much one way or other how that works out for you guys, but I don't want to have to answer for motorized use, or to have to advocate for it.
> 
> What's your opinion on this? Why should mountain bikers have to answer for e-bikes? Or should they? How about we just follow common sense and keep them as separate user groups and everyone deals with their own access issues?


Because they look they same.....My e-bike and non-e-bike are THE SAME BIKE, one has a tiny motor in the hardest to see part and one doesn't. Try as you might to differentiate they are only different to mt bikers and mt bikers opinions by and large DO NOT MATTER. If mt bikers wanted to have their voices heard, they should have cracked down on thier bad apples a long time ago. Instead, they evolved into DH (which looks a whole lot more moto then an e-biker) and strava which only hampered their legitimacy.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> The difference is mtb threats to others are real and documented. The unique threat of the emtb is an undocumented fantasy


You're missing the point. Even if you're right that e-bikes pose no additional threat (which I would dispute, you yourself removed your speed restriction)..... For user groups aligned against MTBs, the perception is the reality. The perception that e-bikes are more threatening than regular bikes is enough for hikers to get all bikes banned.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Because they look they same.....My e-bike and non-e-bike are THE SAME BIKE, one has a tiny motor in the hardest to see part and one doesn't. Try as you might to differentiate they are only different to mt bikers and mt bikers opinions by and large DO NOT MATTER. If mt bikers wanted to have their voices heard, they should have cracked down on thier bad apples a long time ago. Instead, they evolved into DH (which looks a whole lot more moto then an e-biker) and strava which only hampered their legitimacy.


Do you have any experience with mtb trail advocacy and trying to get new trails approved? Are you able to appreciate the major paradigm shift involved when you change from a strictly human-powered apparatus to a motor equipped one?

The reason MTBs have made such huge gains in access is very much based on them being non-motorized. I'm seriously shocked that not only are some of you long-time riders not aware of this (particularly the guys who try to come across as experts in..well...everything), but it seems some just being apprised of it makes you lose your minds. This is basic knowledge for anyone that's involved in MTB access.

I suggest one of you follows through on your idea about starting an e-bike thread in the Trail Building sub-forum. Try to wear your big-boy pants and not get all bent out of shape when you read the exact same things you've heard here over and over right here. You add a motor, you change the game. So simple it hurts; amazing you guys seem completely unable to grasp this.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> If mt bikers wanted to have their voices heard, they should have cracked down on thier bad apples a long time ago.


Errr...have you been sleeping for the past 15-20 years? Might want to get a little more current on this subject.

FWIW, MTB as most of us know it actually started with DH. You've got the evolution thing backwards.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Linktung said:


> Because they look they same.....My e-bike and non-e-bike are THE SAME BIKE, one has a tiny motor in the hardest to see part and one doesn't. Try as you might to differentiate they are only different to mt bikers and mt bikers opinions by and large DO NOT MATTER.


This is demonstrably untrue, as shown by land management agency decisions. The BLM considers them to be different, for example.

I don't see why it's so hard to agree that ebikes are a new category, somewhere on a spectrum between bikes and motorcycles. Accordingly they require/deserve new considerations on their own merits and liabilities. That's likely to be somewhere between identical access as bicycles and restriction to moto-legal trails.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> The reason MTBs have made such huge gains in access is very much based on them being non-motorized. I'm seriously shocked that not only are some of you long-time riders not aware of this (particularly the guys who try to come across as experts in..well...everything), but it seems some just being apprised of it makes you lose your minds. This is basic knowledge for anyone that's involved in MTB access.


Thanks for the newsflash, sloppy.

Why do you think motorized vehicles were set apart in the first place?

I forgot, thinking is not your strong suit. 

Because they, until now, have been hot, loud, heavy, very powerful and make fumes. The emtb has no more impact than a mtb in these respects, or in fact in ANY respect.

That is the reason emtbs, logically, should be allowed anywhere a mtb can go, as is the case now in Switzerland and Austria. 

Steps of Light by unoh7, on Flickr


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Ban all Hiking!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Do you have any experience with mtb trail advocacy and trying to get new trails approved? Are you able to appreciate the major paradigm shift involved when you change from a strictly human-powered apparatus to a motor equipped one?
> 
> The reason MTBs have made such huge gains in access is very much based on them being non-motorized. I'm seriously shocked that not only are some of you long-time riders not aware of this (particularly the guys who try to come across as experts in..well...everything), but it seems some just being apprised of it makes you lose your minds. This is basic knowledge for anyone that's involved in MTB access.


Exactly this.



Procter said:


> 2) You posit that internal strife hurts mtb access movements overall. But, if MTBers partner with hikers against e-bikes, it might solidify MTBs as a respected user group who fights for the cause of protecting our trails, and doing what's sane for all user groups.


In places where there are good relationships between user groups, like there are here, this is already true.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Thanks for the newsflash, sloppy.
> 
> Why do you think motorized vehicles were set apart in the first place?
> 
> ...


And that's fine. I really don't have a problem with that (as I've said over and over and over and over and yet you seem to have purposefully ignored each and every time in your quest for victimhood).

Now explain why you think those that those of us who have no interest in using these magical new motorized devices should be responsible for making these arguments to the powers that be, or risk losing our own access based on whether or not you are successful in convincing LMs of these points?

Avoid the question once again in 3....2....1....


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> Ban all Hiking!


OMG do that, and sex is next 

@sloopymo

Two riders drinking beer. "Hey, is Rooks Creek cut-out or not?"

What do you think they are talking about, whether rooks creek has been built yet?

No, silly, it's the trees 

L1050561 by unoh7, on Flickr

What I meant was that I have probably carried a chainsaw across more ST than you and the other guys have ever seen.

I could be wrong 

PS lets see some some pics of your trails


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Avoid the question once again in 3....2....1....


Looks like I called that one.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Non-e-bikers should spend their time advocating for e-bikes because it would be far more productive then spinning garbage argument after garbage argument about why they shouldn't.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Linktung said:


> Non-e-bikers should spend their time advocating for e-bikes because it would be far more productive then spinning garbage argument after garbage argument about why they shouldn't.


How specifically is this a "garbage argument"...do you spend a lot of time advocating for things you have no interest in whatsover, particularly those which stand may run at odds to things you actually care about?

Please share examples.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> What is the question we are avoiding?


The one that will end up keeping e-bikes off the majority of mtb trails unless some of you step up and address it.

You can lead a horse to water, but if it's it's too lazy to drink...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sad this thread sinks so low, but I may have stooped myself although attempting to attain a more elevated response pattern like Harry and others. Anyway, for this e-proponent:
1) I've gone to meetings, done trail work and represented MTB as well as I could; since we don't have many issues in my area now, hope this translates to ebike activity.
2) Willing to go it alone as I've said before. Although it would be great for unification of MTB & eMTB, don't require it.
3) As said before, if I think eMTB will compromise MTB, I'm with MTB.
4) Realize there are some areas that are more sensitive than others; different rules are necessary for them AFAICT 
5) Are there any more questions?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Sad this thread sinks so low, but I may have stooped myself although attempting to attain a more elevated response pattern like Harry and others. Anyway, for this e-proponent:
> 1) I've gone to meetings, done trail work and represented MTB as well as I could; since we don't have many issues in my area now, hope this translates to ebike activity.
> 2) Willing to go it alone as I've said before. Although it would be great for unification of MTB & eMTB, don't require it.
> 3) As said before, if I think eMTB will compromise MTB, I'm with MTB.
> ...


Awesome, and thanks for not pretending this issue doesn't exist. As someone who has actually 'been there done that' and realizes what does on behind the scenes, you seem to be in a very unique position among the e-bikers.

See fellas, it's not so hard.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Learn to share the trail with others and respect others user of public trails how about that .


I do all the time, hikers, birders, dog walkers ( even well trained ones off leash) and sometimes horsey folk where permitted. How about you respect the fact that for the most part E motorcycles are not allowed in MA. You of course will follow the rules and not ride illegally. Respect is a two way trail( street). Start there.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> I think until we get the access issue moved as a topic to the advocacy forum, or a new land use forum, we will not be free of the poisonous discussion climate in this forum.


http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-buildi...ikes-trail-advocacy-1019750.html#post12772468


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Two riders drinking beer. "Hey, is Rooks Creek cut-out or not?"
> 
> What do you think they are talking about, whether rooks creek has been built yet?


Two trail builders have that same conversation and all of a sudden, it's a whole different story though, isn't.

Oh, sorry, forgot that you wouldn't know anything about that.


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Sad this thread sinks so low, but I may have stooped myself although attempting to attain a more elevated response pattern like Harry and others. Anyway, for this e-proponent:
> 1) I've gone to meetings, done trail work and represented MTB as well as I could; since we don't have many issues in my area now, hope this translates to ebike activity.
> 2) Willing to go it alone as I've said before. Although it would be great for unification of MTB & eMTB, don't require it.
> 3) As said before, if I think eMTB will compromise MTB, I'm with MTB.
> ...


Thanks for bringing a voice of reason to the conversation, fos'l.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

He is one of the more reasonable ones...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You mean "thank you for agreeing with my opinions".


^skimming can be dangerous


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

lol


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^skimming can be dangerous


I realized I was incorrect and fixed my error before you felt the need to call me out on it. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to jump on that, though.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Thank you for taking the time out of your day to jump on that, though.


Glad to help.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Two trail builders have that same conversation and all of a sudden, it's a whole different story though, isn't.
> 
> Oh, sorry, forgot that you wouldn't know anything about that.


I was scouting lines last night and I think I'm going to dedicate my new creation to eMTB.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ouch, not much love over at the trailbuilding and advocacy forum.

Maybe at some point people will believe me (and Harry, and others) who say low power/low speed e-bikes could be ok. We're the *friendliest* folks you'll deal with, guys.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Two trail builders have that same conversation and all of a sudden, it's a whole different story though, isn't.
> 
> Oh, sorry, forgot that you wouldn't know anything about that.


I know alot more about trail building than you know about e-mtbs 

Thanks for your clarification before accusing me of lying. Your manners are exemplary. Hopefully your switchbacks are better 

You never need to cut out trails with chainsaws?



Walt said:


> Ouch, not much love over at the trailbuilding and advocacy forum.
> 
> Maybe at some point people will believe me (and Harry, and others) who say low power/low speed e-bikes could be ok. We're the *friendliest* folks you'll deal with, guys.
> 
> -Walt


It's early days. There will be all sorts of battles for years. How long did it take to get mtbs approved in some locales?

It's just too bad to see some mtb folks more anal than either hikers or horseman.

But just like the early days of mtb, unreasonable bans are just going to be ignored by a significant percentage of owners, and that number will grow as more and more e-mtbs show up.

The e-nots can huff and puff, but the bottom line: the impact is near identical to mtbs, they are safer, and more fun 

Like a great guy once said:
'The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.'

Dead End by unoh7, on Flickr


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

uhoh7 said:


> But just like the early days of mtb, unreasonable bans are just going to be ignored by a significant percentage of owners, and that number will grow as more and more e-mtbs show up.
> 
> Like a great guy once said:
> 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.'


Saved for posterity. Not the best idea to advocate poaching, IMO. If anti-e-bike people need more sticks to beat you guys with, you just gave them one.

I'm not sure I would quote Theodore Parker in reference to poaching recreational trails on an electric bicycle, either, since he was referencing slavery. But that's just me.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Not the best idea to advocate poaching
> -Walt


Total Bull**** and I don't appreciate your mis-quote.

I did not advocate poaching, nor have I ever done so. I described the facts on the ground accurately. You want to disagree, fine, but don't lie about what I say, please.

But I guess when you have no good arguments, you just have to smear your opponents.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To me, saying "well, you just have to live with it, because people are going to poach" is close enough to advocating it that you simply shouldn't say it, especially when you throw your silly morality of the universe quote in. But hey, feel free to try to weasel out of it if you want. We are all reading you loud and clear.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> To me, saying "well, you just have to live with it, because people are going to poach" is close enough to advocating it that you simply shouldn't say it, especially when you throw your silly morality of the universe quote in. But hey, feel free to try to weasel out of it if you want. We are all reading you loud and clear.
> 
> -Walt


More insulting hypocrisy, thank you 

Your twisting of other people's words is the only weasal behavior I see, sorry.

I'll write the truth as I see it, and you can like it or not.

PS Actually I owe an apology to weasels for associating them with your disgusting tactics of demonization, Walt.

20101225-DSC06519 by unoh7, Sorry, Buddy


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's all good. 

For anyone who happens into these forums and mistakenly thought that the emtbs that are coming are the same as they are in Europe, the assertions by the pro ebike crowd that many of the ebikes here, which will have 3x the power, will be modded and the laws ignored by those riding them will begin to see what truly lies ahead. It's nice that the problems are being acknowledged.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Agreed, Harry. We get a lot of contradictory nonsense, with some "well you'll just have to deal, because they're coming!" thrown in. 

I'm not sure how you could possibly do a better job of making enemies - and among the people *most likely* to be sympathetic. 

If I were an e-bike rider who wanted *legal* access to more trails, I'd be doing the following:
-Advocating for EU limits on power/speed. We hear constantly from various folks here that e-bikes aren't any faster than normal mountain bikes - so there should be absolutely no need for more speed/power than that.
-Speaking out against poaching. Duh.
-Talking about how trail design can be improved to help bikes of all kinds interact better with other users. 
-Asking manufacturers to take the lead in giving money and resources to developing better trails and enforcing reasonable limits. 
-Focusing on the commuting/paved end of things first so that we get more data on how e-bike users interact with other slower traffic in a more controlled environment.

Or you can just whine and make contradictory and outrageous statements in public forums for everyone to see when the policymakers actually start looking at this more seriously.

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> The e-nots can huff and puff, but the bottom line: the impact is near identical to mtbs, they are safer, and more fun


Until you can back the following statements up with factual scientific studies I would be careful of just making things up.

"the impact is near identical to mtbs"

"they are safer"

As for being more fun, that is purely opinion.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Walt said:


> I'm not sure I would quote Theodore Parker in reference to poaching recreational trails on an electric bicycle, either, since he was referencing slavery. But that's just me.
> 
> -Walt


Nominating for quote of the year

You know, I think it was Milton, in Paradise Lost, who said,

_"Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell, leads up to light, by light, specifically meaning, e-bikes access to MTB trails."_

Those words were so true, both then and now.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> The e-nots can huff and puff, but the bottom line: the impact is near identical to mtbs, they are safer, and more fun


Credible sources avoid stating opinion as fact.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mabey a big group hug is in need so walt you have never rode were you wasn't supposed too??


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> I know alot more about trail building than you know about e-mtbs


What's there to know? It's a bike with a motor. Been riding and building bikes with and without motors for ~40 years. I've also has a few brushes with that thing called 'electricity' over that time. E-bikes are very simple machines; not sure where you think the big mystery lies.

Building fun trails that hold up is incredibly more complex than slapping a motor on a bike. Navigating the approval process can be even worse. To even make this comparison shows how little you know.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rider95 said:


> Mabey a big group hug is in need so walt you have never rode were you wasn't supposed too??


Believe me I'm no grammar cop but this one is fun, I count at least 10 errors!


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Credible sources avoid stating opinion as fact.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Besides a e bike cop he's also grammar cop lol adapt or Die !


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

"But just like the early days of mtb, unreasonable bans are just going to be ignored by a significant percentage of owners, and that number will grow as more and more e-mtbs show up." 

So what exactly are you trying to say? I'm looking for clarity as to not twist your words here. Ignoring bans does not mean poaching? There in lies the crux of the concerns for trail access, closures and outright bans.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> What's there to know? It's a bike with a motor. Been riding and building bikes with and without motors for ~40 years. I've also has a few brushes with that thing called 'electricity' over that time. E-bikes are very simple machines; not sure where you think the big mystery lies.
> 
> Building fun trails that hold up is incredibly more complex than slapping a motor on a bike. Navigating the approval process can be even worse. To even make this comparison shows how little you know.


That's why uhoh is pleading his case with all of the trail builders in that forum. Oh wait....


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree with you, these kinds of high powered Motorized Mountain Bikes are just the beginning. The technology is going to get better and better, the motors more powerful and the batteries smaller and lighter. A 10k watt E-Bike was unthinkable 10 years ago, but electric vehicle technology has come a long way in the last 10 years and if you think we have hit peak Electric capabilities, you are very wrong.
> 
> As this technology becomes more common, which it is doing now, the costs will drop.
> 
> ...


That's not going to happen. And sorry, I must completely disagree with you. Same question to you....Do you know of any magnet material, copper winding technology, etc, that is better than what is used now? Sure, there are all types of electric motor designs...outer rotor, inner rotor, brushed, brushless, conventional, stepper, 2 pole, multi-pole, linear,....the list goes on and on. The highest power density technology known (what I ride) is ironless core, but still, there are limits in magnetic strength in material science, and based on the currently understood laws of Physics. You will not see a 3000 watt motor the size of what is now 250 watts.. Good luck with that. The laws of electromagnetism are pretty well proven.

The reason you didn't see ebikes in the past is the battery technology, not the electric motor technology. A battery with the same capacity 10-20 years ago weighed how much??????

What I think you will see is that people who ride something like a Stealth Bomber, M1 sprizig, etc...> 1000 - 10,000 watts, are going to ride it most likely on more open trails that are for good for MX anyway...or the road because this is the best place to ride such an bike. If I had such a bike, I would ride in on a closed course or moto track with a spare battery nearby. Because heavy electric bikes are simply not fun in tight or very technical terrain, they have a short range relatively speaking, and don't make a lot of sense in technical tight trails like a regular MTB with a < 750 watt motor....and that's what is going to stop most from buying them and using them on such trails in the first place. I realize that might not make sense to many who don't have the perspective, especially those who don't actually ride an ebike, but give it some time.

Now if you can get to 250-750 watts within a reasonable weight...that's when the fun starts, and that's where it makes sense to ride on any trail you might with your regular bike (and have FUN). Further weight and size reductions will likely come from the batteries, not the motors. And again, if you drive an electric motor at such high power output (max possible)...there goes your battery and overall efficiency to Zero. Its Toast.

I've been riding MX and MTB's my whole life. I am just being honest and I suspect many feel the same. Given me the choice of a lot of electric power at the expense of weight and low range and I am going to ride combustion everytime, hands down. But if I am riding tight singletrack, very technical rocky, rooty BS, or Euduro style riding I'd rather ride a 250 - 500 watt with the least amount of weight. Its sort of a sweet spot when you consider the power to weight ratio of the bike/human/electric motor system. The problem is that those who don't ride them don't understand this concept.

Sure motors will get better, manufacturers might start to use the higher or the highest grade of neodymium boron magnet (very expensive) or magnets probably will continue to get slightly better. ...But will you see 1000's of watts in a motor the size of a 250 watt????? ....Keep dreaming.

IF you disagree, please prove it and point me to the technology and laws of Physics that will change to make your point true. I don't buy it. Land managers will eventually learn to tell the difference between a 750 watt and a 2000-10,000+ watt bike...its pretty easy really.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Agree with you that batteries will get better especially when Tesla's new factory starts producing, but even now Luna Cycles has a three pound, 52V, 7 a/h --- won't get too much better too soon. As far as motors, a German company has a viable, though outrageously expensive, system in which the magnets are attached to the inside of the rear rim and the seatstays contain the stator. 26 pounds and 60 mph in the prototype.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

fos'l said:


> Agree with you that batteries will get better especially when Tesla's new factory starts producing, but even now Luna Cycles has a three pound, 52V, 7 a/h --- won't get too much better too soon. As far as motors, a German company has a viable, though outrageously expensive, system in which the magnets are attached to the inside of the rear rim and the seatstays contain the stator. 26 pounds and 60 mph in the prototype.


Yeah, lightweight's electric bike wheel is pretty cool, but yeah, you are right, outrageously expensive. I thought that would be interesting maybe for a road bike for commuting, (if the cost was reasonable)...off road, it's going to have some serious disadvantages to offset the advantages with such a design and such a massively tight air gap between the wheel and the magnets. makes truing the wheel interesting I am sure.

At the end of the day, power is power. Can't wait til the batteries get really better, they are pretty great now, but in the future, it's going to be awesome.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bikedriver said:


> But will you see 1000's of watts in a motor the size of a 250 watt????? ....Keep dreaming.


While I agree with much of your argument that batteries are the road block to light weight+power+range, there are already 750w + motors that weigh the same or less than the @8lb OEM 250w motors. I can't compare sizes obviously, but the weights are in range.

250w Bosch & Yamaha 8.4 lbs/7.7lbs
https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/bosch-yamaha-ebikes-differences-explained/

750w Bafang bbs02 8.5lbs
https://electricbikereview.com/8fun/bbs02/

3500w Aden 8.4 lbs
https://www.aden-sports.com/de/powerkit-pro

4000w Tangent 7lbs
off-road ? tangent motor company

It really comes down to how much weight in batteries you're willing to lug around and if you have a big enough wallet to pay for them. A 3000w system won't be for most people, but some will go for it, especially those who have limited areas to ride in, like a singular park and places where ICE is not an option. In highly populated areas, east coast or the midwest for example.

Guys like this:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks Harry for making it crystal clear what it is no one ever wants to see on the non -motorized trails, and exactly what real bikers need to be absolutely sure we're not confused with in any way, shape or form when it comes to access. E-bikes are not mountain bikes. 

I would definitely call out someone if I ran into them on anything like that on the trails. Deservedly so. I hope (but seriously doubt) that any of you "it's the same thing as a bicycle" folks would do the same.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, good find, but I don't think that many e-proponents on this forum would even consider riding that contraption. The noise would drive me crazy, it seems as though the power band is erratic since it's probably an RC motor and it doesn't comply with CA laws as Class 1 or 2. I wouldn't confront the rider, but would report him as I have ICE riders when encountering them


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

No, I don't think most people would, it doesn't comply with any class, it's by definition a moped. And noisy. And ugly. Not that that stops people from riding them though, you can even do tours on cyclone equipped dh bikes up in Tahoe. 

All the kit bikes are pretty rough for mtb at this point regardless of power levels, people even complain about the essentricies of the oem PAS systems. The fact is, we're still very much at the beginning of the development cycle for emtbs, I'm not sure anyone here will be accurately able to predict what they will be like in 10 years except far more refined, lighter, faster, with more range and ofc, both more expensive and cheaper. The nice ones more expensive and the cheap ones, cheaper. With a 750w limit, there's room to for creative designers to take emtbs in directions that wouldn't work for a mtb.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

LOL that's either a fake sound track or some other kind of elec power that's not common I have hrs of video of me riding nothing sounds like that . That's a gas motor sound


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

You've got a hub motor, that's a tangent, two very different motors. The high powered mid drives, often high rpm RC motors do sound like that.


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## fcmtiker (Aug 15, 2016)

For me personally, after turning 60 a couple years back and still having to support family I do not get out on bike as much as I can to stay in top shape. Hence it limits me to shorter rides.
After discovering that federal law actually states a max or 750w and a speed limit of 20 MPH I look harder into building a system that would help me still ride the trails I like to ride yet not breach the law. 
I have since built an Transition Bandit with BufangSSHD 750w bike and a 30t from gear with a 1 x 11 setup in the back. 
Guess what, most of my younger friends still beat me to the top of most of our rides here in Colorado but instead of waiting for them to come back because I'm so tired I use 8% assist and am usually only about 2 - 5 minutes behind them climbing the mountain.
For the downhill part of the ride I do not know about where most of you ride but it is almost physically impossible to get up to 20 mph on any of the trails I ride around here as they are true single track, and survive that is. Besides I have never used the electric part to go down... it is down!!! Of course as an older more experienced rider I do understand that you don't need to pedal down hill, because it is down... a lot of younger riders still don't get that.
Now that major manufacturers, (Specialized Turbo Levo), are getting into the game, I hope thinking a lot about as us boomers are getting older and still want to ride, just maybe will start adjusting their thinking.
I will say my bet is the biggest complaints in this forum are probably the young hard core bombers that are rude riding down hill anyway. That has been my experience so far for the last 20 years riding trails around the front range of Colorado at least. 
It should also be noted that once the battery dies you are pedaling a 45 - 60 pound bike! So there is that...
Finally, I just wanted to state what is truly my intent for riding now days as some of us can't get out multiple times a week and as long as you are not endangering others I say enjoy your ride!
FCMtnbiker


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm wondering where you ride an e-bike in CO, as they are illegal on trails in most front range communities, as well as almost all USFS trails in the front range.

If "FC" means Fort Collins, and you ride there, if you're riding XC or Larimer County trails, you're doing so illegally. Please stop.

Correction: You're in Fort Collins, and breaking the law.



fcmtiker said:


> For me personally, after turning 60 a couple years back and still having to support family I do not get out on bike as much as I can to stay in top shape. Hence it limits me to shorter rides.
> After discovering that federal law actually states a max or 750w and a speed limit of 20 MPH I look harder into building a system that would help me still ride the trails I like to ride yet not breach the law.
> I have since built an Transition Bandit with BufangSSHD 750w bike and a 30t from gear with a 1 x 11 setup in the back.
> Guess what, most of my younger friends still beat me to the top of most of our rides here in Colorado but instead of waiting for them to come back because I'm so tired I use 8% assist and am usually only about 2 - 5 minutes behind them climbing the mountain.
> ...


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fcmtiker said:


> For me personally, after turning 60 a couple years back and still having to support family I do not get out on bike as much as I can to stay in top shape. Hence it limits me to shorter rides.
> 
> Finally, I just wanted to state what is truly my intent for riding now days as some of us can't get out multiple times a week and as long as you are not endangering others I say enjoy your ride!
> FCMtnbiker


It's nice that you're still riding, but if you can only ride shorter rides, so be it. Age is not a disability. FWIW, I'm 54 and have friends in their 60's who can easily outride me who like you, still work full time, have families etc.

Like Le Duke said, you're most likely riding illegally. It's very restrictive here in Colorado where you can ride an emtb, essentially, only on motorized roads and trails. FYI, "federal law" is actually the CPSA that only defines what an ebike is and leaves it up to the states and local jurisdictions to decide where they are allowed.

State law allows 750w/20 mph ebikes only on state roads, bike lanes and state bike paths, leaving the rest up to the cities, counties and state park system.

Colorado Bike Law | Colorado Law

Heres the whole thing is you want to wade through it.

http://tornado.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/2013TitlePrintouts/CRS Title 42 (2013).pdf

On USFS and BLM land, they are legal on motorized only.

Along with, your motor is rated at 750w/1000w/1500w depending on who you talk to.....



Eric Luna;n5871 said:


> I agree it is a bit misleading how the chinese rate their motors...... its true that they usually underrate their motors.
> 
> For example the bbshd is called a 1000 watt even through it is known that it is 1500 watt system.


Disappointed with Cyclone 3000 - Electricbike.com Forum


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fcmtiker said:


> For me personally, after turning 60 a couple years back and still having to support family I do not get out on bike as much as I can to stay in top shape. Hence it limits me to shorter rides.
> After discovering that federal law actually states a max or 750w and a speed limit of 20 MPH I look harder into building a system that would help me still ride the trails I like to ride yet not breach the law.
> I have since built an Transition Bandit with BufangSSHD 750w bike and a 30t from gear with a 1 x 11 setup in the back.
> Guess what, most of my younger friends still beat me to the top of most of our rides here in Colorado but instead of waiting for them to come back because I'm so tired I use 8% assist and am usually only about 2 - 5 minutes behind them climbing the mountain.
> ...


 You can still ride. Just pedal and get in shape, no assist needed. Maybe spin some on road to work some cardio in. Busy, old and out of shape? Just an excuse. HTFU, YRMV.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fcmtiker said:


> as long as you are not endangering others I say enjoy your ride!
> FCMtnbiker


How about endangering access for mountain bikes?

Just because you're not as fast as you wish doesn't mean you get to start using a motor anywhere you want.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

This is peripheral to the legality issue (which I'm not addressing at this time), and relates to something that Harry mentioned, that is how wattage is assigned. AFAIK, it's supposed to be the power that a motor can run at continuously without component failure. However, seems to me to be a crapshoot.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

I think wattage ratings are largely irrelevant because law enforcement won't be able to verify them in the field (they are just stickers really). If some wattages are allowed, and others aren't, all ebikes, and really, all bikes, will be considered a single user group very soon after.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Procter said:


> I think wattage ratings are largely irrelevant because law enforcement won't be able to verify them in the field (they are just stickers really). If some wattages are allowed, and others aren't, all ebikes, and really, all bikes, will be considered a single user group very soon after.


Agree, totally; plus, stickers are inexpensive. Just wondered if there was any rhyme or reason to how they're designated.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

There is lots of atv trails in CO I am coming out to ride my E bike in oct going ride down Pikes Peak with my DD and see how much I regen my battery ,that should be fun . Looking fwd to riding right from my motel out to some Co single track .


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Agree, totally; plus, stickers are inexpensive. Just wondered if there was any rhyme or reason to how they're designated.


In Europe, ebikes and all their components have to be "type approved".



> The type-approval may only be carried out by an officially recognised approval authority. Type-approval in one member state is valid in all other 26 member states. The type-approval applies not only to the vehicle as a whole but also to all components and characteristics listed in Annex I of Directive 2002/24/EC. Consequently, a type-approved components may only be replaced by another type-approved components. A type-approved electric bike must be supplied with an official Certificate of Conformity.


EU Regulations for E-bikes & Pedelecs (Part 1)

Which means that there are serious consequences if your components are erroneously labled in Europe. If you've had any experience with buying Chinese equipment directly, the only thing you can be assured of is that they lie about all the specs that matter.

I've thought the only way that you could have a sticker system would be if some govermental agency issued them, like OHRV stickers. But that would be cumbersome and never implemented unless the government saw it as a potential revenue stream.

It'll be a free for all here.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> There is lots of atv trails in CO I am coming out to ride my E bike in oct going ride down Pikes Peak with my DD and see how much I regen my battery ,that should be fun . Looking fwd to riding right from my motel out to some Co single track .


You should do well on the toll road, make sure you buy a bike pass, the rangers are super aware of such things.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harryman said:


> In Europe, ebikes and all their components have to be "type approved".
> 
> EU Regulations for E-bikes & Pedelecs (Part 1)
> 
> ...


The only upside is that some EU manufacturers are producing bikes for US consumption. Hopefully those will be identified accurately.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Until the consumer slaps a 750w sticker on their 1500w, or uses a dongle to remove the speed restriction.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Procter said:


> Until the consumer slaps a 750w sticker on their 1500w, or uses a dongle to remove the speed restriction.


We know there will be a certain group with dingles and dongles. However, most of the off road EU & AU bikes that I've seen were either 250w or 500w. There are the Stealth Fighter-types, but IMO they're an anomaly.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

fos'l said:


> We know there will be a certain group with dingles and dongles. However, most of the off road EU & AU bikes that I've seen were either 250w or 500w. There are the Stealth Fighter-types, but IMO they're an anomaly.


I feel americans have a unique propensity towards the biggest/baddest/most powerful item in any product family, and there is a culture of rebellion against regulation and skirting the the law that I had not seen as much of in my EU travels. This manifests itself in big trucks, cars with emissions controls modified and removed, motorcycles with no mufflers, weapons which violate the assault weapons ban and other gun laws, and the like.

Secondly, I'm not sure how the EU enforces their bike restrictions for different categories but doing so generally _requires expensive bureaucracies:_ OHV and motor vehicle laws are enforced by DMV, all vehicles have VINs, with a system which encodes various properties of the vehicle, and VINs are then registered, regulated and monitored at point of manufacture, point of sale, and point of import through registration and recording - to set up such a system for bikes would be expensive, and _would only serve the purpose of differentiating between which bikes are allowed on trails and which aren't_. Honestly lawmakers probably _don't care enough to create such a bureaucracy, only to allow a small user group (us, mountain bikers) to continue to have trail access. _ It will be far easier, cheaper, and voter friendly to just ban bikes from trails, or hopefully, to just ban ebikes instead. Will the public support spending cash on the bureaucracy to regulate it effectively? Doubt it.

Thirdly, I'd be curious whether the anti-bike sentiment, and the hiker groups, are as active and powerful in the EU as they are here. You can have lightly enforced regulation (on bike classifications) but light opposition to bikes on trails, and mountain biking will survive. Or you can have strongly enforced regulation (which requires expensive beauracracy) and strong opposition, and mountain bikes could also survive. But if you have lightly enforced regulation on bike classifications, and strong opposition to bikes on trails, the result will be lumping all bikes and e-bikes together for blanket ban.


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## fcmtiker (Aug 15, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> I'm wondering where you ride an e-bike in CO, as they are illegal on trails in most front range communities, as well as almost all USFS trails in the front range.
> 
> If "FC" means Fort Collins, and you ride there, if you're riding XC or Larimer County trails, you're doing so illegally. Please stop.
> 
> ...


Well Le Duke, you got me... oh wait I knew there would be skulkers, so I did not actually give away where I live. But good catch, I attended CSU 'Go Rams!' so was about the only place in CO that I could reference with any correctness. Not only do I not live in Fort Collins I don't even live in Colorado. I won't give away where I live as I'm sure there are skulkers here too!!!  I will just keep riding like I have been and not worry about it cause not too many elitist around here yet... Enjoy guys, you're too much for me...


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fcmtiker said:


> I will just keep riding like I have been and not worry about it cause not too many elitist around here yet...


It is not about elitest e-bike haters, it is about other user groups who already hate mountain bikes on the trails. Giving them more fodder by knowingly riding an e-bike where they are prohibited OR by riding a human powered pedal bike too fast or too dangerous gets us the same thing, mass opposition. Neither are helpful.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Agreed, MTBers are the only friends the e-bikers have got. Writing us off as elitist, just for fearing the future of our sport, good luck with that. You guys need to convince MTBers to be on your side, not chastise them.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

fcmtiker said:


> Well Le Duke, you got me... oh wait I knew there would be skulkers, so I did not actually give away where I live. But good catch, I attended CSU 'Go Rams!' so was about the only place in CO that I could reference with any correctness. Not only do I not live in Fort Collins I don't even live in Colorado. I won't give away where I live as I'm sure there are skulkers here too!!!  I will just keep riding like I have been and not worry about it cause not too many elitist around here yet... Enjoy guys, you're too much for me...


So you lied about where you live? Really? Quick google search says you have an engineering business in Ft. Collins, and your FB page has this fine quote:
"I am defined by riding.
I breathe the dust of the earth.
My sweat stains the aluminum and steel. 
I speak in grunts. 
I answer in groans.
I rely on mineral oil. 
I believe in rubber.
I climb. I descend. 
I even ride chair lifts.
But I always, always, always pedal..."

I guess we should add...with a motor.

Too funny.

Is this really just Uhoh7 again? He disappeared a couple days ago...

Man up and tell us where you ride. If it's illegal, cop to it. Otherwise you're just making yourself, and e-bike riders by association, look terrible.

-Walt


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Ok, this is bordering on doxing now which I think crosses the line, fcmtbiker is entitled to his anonymity if he so chooses


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## fcmtiker (Aug 15, 2016)

Procter said:


> Ok, this is bordering on doxing now which I think crosses the line, fcmtbiker is entitled to his anonymity if he so chooses


Thanks Procter, While I don't really have an ebike I actually ran into an old guy on a trail out in Truckee last month that was riding one and after chatting with him the passion he talked about allowing him to get back out on a bike really impressed me. I don't know if it was legal for him nor do I care as he was doing what he loved. That meeting set me to thinking what would people think? Would they have compassion for someone or would haters just hate. So yeah made up a story to see and well you saw the answers. I just hope that I can keep that kind of passion when I get that age. Ride on brother!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fcmtiker said:


> So yeah made up a story......


I always suspected that a lot of the "kindly old gentlemen who just want to ride a bit longer" stories here were just that (story tales), thanks for the confirmation. Why would anyone believe you even talked to the guy after a whopper like that?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fcmtiker said:


> . So yeah made up a story to see and well you saw the answers.


Yeah, but did you? Even though you were a big enough d-bag to make up a story about riding illegally and post it in a thread about how this is a problem for future access, no one did anything but inform you of the local laws in the place you pretended you were poaching trails.

Another lame attempt at playing the victim by some passive/aggressive d-bag..

Come to think of it, maybe he IS uhoh7's sockpuppet...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> The only upside is that some EU manufacturers are producing bikes for US consumption. Hopefully those will be identified accurately.


There's no doubt that any bike produced for the EU market will be what it says it is, the same bikes here will just have their controllers set to the higher 20mph limit, I would expect them mechanically to be identical.

As to if and who would ever label them as to what class? Who knows? The distriubtor? The retailer? There's no universal class system. Are the ebikes sold in CA selling with labeling? I'm curious.

The kit market as you know, is unregulated, interestingly, there's a couple of bigger guys starting to sell legal/illegal OEMDIY emtbs, like this:

Luna Giant BBSHD Full Suspension Ebike - Luna Cycle

Which I could see being more popular than kit bikes, especially as the kits become more refined and ebike savvy shops develop to service them.

Power limits here are essentially just a recommendation.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, CA law demands that 2017 and later bikes need to be identified. Apparently Raleigh is doing this by placing the Class in a decal or the paint (couldn't tell) under clear coating.
Some DIY suppliers are trying to produce Class 1 or 2 kits with 20 mph limits, motors designated at 350w, 36V batteries and 15 amp controllers, but who knows whether they'll be considered legal.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fcmtiker said:


> Thanks Procter, While I don't really have an ebike I actually ran into an old guy on a trail out in Truckee last month that was riding one and after chatting with him the passion he talked about allowing him to get back out on a bike really impressed me. I don't know if it was legal for him nor do I care as he was doing what he loved. That meeting set me to thinking what would people think? Would they have compassion for someone or would haters just hate. So yeah made up a story to see and well you saw the answers. I just hope that I can keep that kind of passion when I get that age. Ride on brother!


Made up a story, amended your profile to include the e-bike in question, lied about not living in FoCo when questioned on it, and now you are trying to say it was all a joke?

Does Donald Trump ride bikes now?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Made up a story, amended your profile to include the e-bike in question, lied about not living in FoCo when questioned on it, and now you are trying to say it was all a joke?
> 
> Does Donald Trump ride bikes now?


C'mon, this is out of Trump's league - definitely Clinton level BS!


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

fcmtiker said:


> Well Le Duke, you got me... oh wait I knew there would be skulkers, so I did not actually give away where I live. But good catch, I attended CSU 'Go Rams!' so was about the only place in CO that I could reference with any correctness. Not only do I not live in Fort Collins I don't even live in Colorado. I won't give away where I live as I'm sure there are skulkers here too!!!  I will just keep riding like I have been and not worry about it cause not too many elitist around here yet... Enjoy guys, you're too much for me...


Since i know, I suggest a clean break from this thread. Your reputation here will follow you and you have definitely presented yourself as a unreliable source of information.

I also suggest that you check out the links *Harryman* posted about Colorado's rules on use, or whatever state you actually live in. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse for breaking them.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

fcmtiker said:


> Thanks Procter, While I don't really have an ebike I actually ran into an old guy on a trail out in Truckee last month that was riding one and after chatting with him the passion he talked about allowing him to get back out on a bike really impressed me. I don't know if it was legal for him nor do I care as he was doing what he loved. That meeting set me to thinking what would people think? Would they have compassion for someone or would haters just hate. So yeah made up a story to see and well you saw the answers. I just hope that I can keep that kind of passion when I get that age. Ride on brother!


 Amen I understand completely I for one liked your post, its funny Le Duke says you can't ride a e bike anywhere in the front range lol . But there is over 10 places to rent a atv and countless places like Texas Creek to ride, and the best part is you will be riding with nice friendly people who enjoy MT biking not at all like the ones that hate on your post . Too bad you don't live in CO I would gladly spend a day riding with you come oct when I make it out there . Adapt or Die !!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I suggest you re-read my post instead of putting words in my mouth.

Thanks.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

GiantTurd said:


> So ebikers are in unison averting the law and okay with lying as much as needed to do so.


Gee here we go again FLUSH


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## Ozzie Puente (Jun 2, 2016)

whats wrong with not agreeing with someones opinion aka "the law"?
So ebikers are in unison averting (someones opinion) and okay with lying as much as needed to do so.
you need to change lying with not agreeing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ozzie Puente said:


> whats wrong with not agreeing with someones opinion aka "the law"?
> So ebikers are in unison averting (someones opinion) and okay with lying as much as needed to do so.
> you need to change lying with not agreeing.


The law is the law; it doesn't bend every which way to match everyone's 'opinion'. Try that with the IRS if you don't believe me.

How can one reach adulthood without figuring out basic **** like this?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ozzie Puente said:


> whats wrong with not agreeing with someones opinion aka "the law"?
> So ebikers are in unison averting (someones opinion) and okay with lying as much as needed to do so.
> you need to change lying with not agreeing.


Whether you agree or not, the law is exactly that, the law. And emotorbike guy's wonder why they get no respect.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Whether you agree or not, the law is exactly that, the law. And emotorbike guy's wonder why they get no respect.


LOL tire tracks thinks just have a e bike is against the law well in his eyes all e bikes are breaking the law no matter were we ride .


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## Ozzie Puente (Jun 2, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Whether you agree or not, the law is exactly that, the law. And emotorbike guy's wonder why they get no respect.


you don't know what you're talking about. the law is just mans opinion. the law is whatever the highest ranking judge in the land says it is. and im not an ebiker


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## Ozzie Puente (Jun 2, 2016)

I bet you also believe that a 200+ year old document actually applies to you. you know, the one that no one bothered to sign except as witnesses so as to not make themselves responsible to it. if any obligations were created with this document, they died when the people who signed them died. much like sharia law and other mens opinions


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## interstater (Dec 13, 2008)

Well on the e-Bikes, my 55 year old wife has joined me for the first time on the trails with her e-bike, remember now, if she does not pedal it does not move, same as our mountain bikes, to see that smile on her face as we toured (slowly) the bike park was worth every cent that bike cost, right there. Yes she could have gone faster but that is not what it is about for her. I was a little concerned of other riders reactions for sure, BUT surprisingly EVERYONE was positive about it. I think those that mistreat the trails with their bikes (any bikes) will be dealt with by their mates or those that care for the trails we ride. If someone is seen misbehaving, say something there and then, don't rant about it on here, learn to express your disappointment to those without coming across as a stand-over merchant and soon enough they will see that it is not so cool. This is just another way for those that otherwise would miss out on what we ALL enjoy about the trails we ride. Be happy for them, as you are happy when it is YOU riding with your mates. Like driving a car, you have to ride to the conditions of the trail. And riding 21 kilos of metal is not that good riding out of control.. Rod from Oz.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Well said, Rod. 

My car can do 100 mph, probably. But when I go through a 25 mph school zone, I go, 25. Anyone going too fast for conditions and/or creating a unsafe situation for others should rightfully be called out. E assisted or not. My rides and interactions with other mtbr's has been a non event, because I ride my e bike at the same speeds, bit slower actually! Out on my own, on moto trails, I can cut loose a little, IF the moto trail allows it, and around here they usually don't. Point being, just because I have the " power" doesn't mean I am automatically abuse it, if I do, call me out on it. But the first time I get verbally abused when riding responsibly on a legal trail for my e bike, I will stop, put down the kickstand, (yeah, got one) and have a conversation with the person, hopefully keeping it civil. Two responses come to mind," what makes you think I care what you think?" And, "Cheating, I didn't know we were competing."


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

If I don't press down on the pedal of my car, it does not move, same as my mountain bike. They therefore must be the same.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

That analogy doesn't work. When you drive 100 MPH on your car, it does not have the effect of galvanizing any large anti car movement, and there is no threat of all cars being banned from roads.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

You missed my point. I don't drive 100 mph in my car, though I could. Your hypothesis that an out of control e biker would result in shutting down your trails is unfounded, why not consider that he would be dealt with, as proper, without automatically assuming that " the authorities " would lump him in with you law abiding type riders. 
Again, there is no precedence for your concern, though I can understand it. But making me somehow the bad guy based on your unfounded concern isn't fair either. I could have a 10,000 watt e bike ( don't want one) and I'd ride the local single track the exact same way as I do now. The same way I'd ride a 250 watt no throttle e bike. You do realize, the throttle, when and if used, is sequential, capable of being feathered to a fine degree? There is no difference between using a tad of throttle while pedaling, and zero PAS, then using (or having) NO throttle, and using 1,2 or higher levels of assist. Those with only PAS and no throttle are no better or worse then a ride having both. I never, NOT pedal when mixing with mtbr's, and to date have not passed any.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

same as it ever was/


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I honestly don't care how power is supplied to the motor on a motorized bike, PAS, push button, thumb throttle, it's all the same to me. Power on, power off, why would it matter how it is supplied? The only reason PAS is pushed so hard is that it reduces how glaringly not-like-a-bike a bike with a motor is to the observer. It's hard to pretend its a bike when you are coasting uphill.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> You missed my point. I don't drive 100 mph in my car, though I could. Your hypothesis that an out of control e biker would result in shutting down your trails is unfounded, why not consider that he would be dealt with, as proper, without automatically assuming that " the authorities " would lump him in with you law abiding type riders.
> Again, there is no precedence for your concern, though I can understand it. But making me somehow the bad guy based on your unfounded concern isn't fair either. I could have a 10,000 watt e bike ( don't want one) and I'd ride the local single track the exact same way as I do now. The same way I'd ride a 250 watt no throttle e bike. You do realize, the throttle, when and if used, is sequential, capable of being feathered to a fine degree? There is no difference between using a tad of throttle while pedaling, and zero PAS, then using (or having) NO throttle, and using 1,2 or higher levels of assist. Those with only PAS and no throttle are no better or worse then a ride having both. I never, NOT pedal when mixing with mtbr's, and to date have not passed any.


Well, I'm convinced. Anonymous guy on internet assures us he'll ride responsibly. We'll just show this thread in land manager public comment sessions and we're home free!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Procter said:


> Well, I'm convinced. Anonymous guy on internet assures us he'll ride responsibly. We'll just show this thread in land manager public comment sessions and we're home free!


The land mangers that I have met ridding my bike on the trails there reaction to me and my e bike has been from that's really neat to nothing at all , and the public comment has been 100% positive . There was that one hiker who yelled at me but she didn't know I was on a e bike she just hated Mt bikers, as for other riders I met on the trail my experience has been very positive with other riders not at all like we find on here.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> The land mangers that I have met ridding my bike on the trails there reaction to me and my e bike has been from that's really neat to nothing at all , and the public comment has been 100% positive . There was that one hiker who yelled at me but she didn't know I was on a e bike she just hated Mt bikers, as for other riders I met on the trail my experience has been very positive with other riders not at all like we find on here.


In what National Forest or BLM district?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

portnuefpeddler said:


> You missed my point. I don't drive 100 mph in my car, though I could. Your hypothesis that an out of control e biker would result in shutting down your trails is unfounded, why not consider that he would be dealt with, as proper, without automatically assuming that " the authorities " would lump him in with you law abiding type riders.
> Again, there is no precedence for your concern, though I can understand it.


http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park

This is from guys going too fast downhill on pedal bikes. *This is the precedent.* If eBikes can go 20+mph on flats AND uphill then those who make the rules might be inclined to ban all access to all bikes because just banning e-bikes is going to be harder to enforce than just banning ALL bikes.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> In what National Forest or BLM district?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


 Here in the Midwest its all State,county,or city owned parks with each making the rules as needed.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

rider95 said:


> The land mangers that I have met ridding my bike on the trails there reaction to me and my e bike has been from that's really neat to nothing at all , and the public comment has been 100% positive . There was that one hiker who yelled at me but she didn't know I was on a e bike she just hated Mt bikers, as for other riders I met on the trail my experience has been very positive with other riders not at all like we find on here.


Well, I'm convinced. Anonymous guy on internet assures us land managers he's talked to are fine with Ebikes. If land managers on my local trails have concerns, I will put them in touch with you, so that they can get in touch with your land managers. Debate solved.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Procter said:


> Well, I'm convinced. Anonymous guy on internet assures us land managers he's talked to are fine with Ebikes. If land managers on my local trails have concerns, I will put them in touch with you, so that they can get in touch with your land managers. Debate solved.


 Better yet I will be riding the Monarch trail around oct 5 I hope to ride many trails in and around there do you think there will be snow on the trail?????


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Really?

There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!

So just a show of hands of those who are here complaining...
...how many of you actually belong to a trail support group and help with trails?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> ...how many of you actually belong to a trail support group and help with trails?


I pay taxes that fund the Youth Conservation Corp which in turn pays kids to build and maintain trails. Win/win!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> Really?
> 
> There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!
> 
> ...


I belong to a couple, and am one of the main drivers behind creating/maintaining of about 20 miles of trails in my town. Have also donated TONS of time and sweat (and also some $$) to regional trails, starting in ~1992. I spend well over 100 hours a year doing trailwork (sometimes quite a bit more). Doesn't even count the thousands of hours of legwork getting trails approved for construction. I have many, many friends that do as much if not more, and they all have many friends in the same boat.

Our organization is actually tapped by the state DCR to teach THEM how to build and maintain trails. Trust me, there WILL be enforcement.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I am. Poverty Creek Trails Coalition in Blacksburg, VA.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> Really?
> 
> There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!
> 
> ...


So how about yourself?

I notice that the last (and only) mention of trail work posted by the 'association' you have in your signature was in 2011. Looks like it was mainly just a PSA to move downed limbs after a storm at that. "NEPMTBA" my ass.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> Really?
> 
> There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!
> 
> ...


Medicine Wheel ? Mountain Bike Trail Advocates for the Pikes Peak Region

I'm on the board and have been designing and building trails here for ten years. We work closely with the parks dept to design & build as well as consult with them on trails other volunteer and paid contractors are building, and educatate other groups on proper sustainable and technical build techniques. We also work with the USFS, County, State Parks, Utilities (which owns a lot of land) and neighboring towns.

I was at 10,000 feet laying out new trail all day yesterday, how about you?

Every land manager I've spoken with are against allowing emtbs on non motorized single track, so, while there won't be LEOs patroling the trailheads, it will be obvious if you are poaching, I'm confident peer pressure will take care of the bulk of it. Like any group of users, some will but most won't.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

This is great news, so we have on hand a few who do work, Congrats!

Myself as well as our friends? Involved with Moon Lake Park as well as all the parks in NEPA, building and maintaining Moto and MTB on private properties also. My big plus is to have been recognized for work at Moosic Mountain Preserve by the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, and with that we were one of the first mt bike groups along with others in our area to work with the Nature Conservancy east of the Mississippi River!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yep, mostly unaffiliated but sanctioned. Not surprised at all by the level of participation in sustainable trails. Most of the responses in these threads are well reasoned and rooted in an obvious depth of knowledge on the subject. I applaud all of your hard work.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

NEPMTBA said:


> Really?
> 
> There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!
> 
> ...


Yup.

http://www.montanabicycleguild.org/


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

NEPMTBA said:


> Really?
> 
> There will be no enforcement of anything and your all dreaming! Go ride your pedal bike and enjoy the trails, and let others do the same with their e-bikes!
> 
> ...


A4B, REMBA, MCBC, quite a few trail work days, many BOS and Open Space Meetings in Marin County. Walked trails with State Parks to change access for MTBs on trails.

I don't want e-bikes anywhere near Marin Open Space. Two of the best trails in Marin are open to e-bikes though, have fun there all you want.


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## r.f.d. (Jan 22, 2021)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but the way I see it electric mountain bike access is 100% dependent on mtb's, which is the entire problem IMHO. If you don't want help from mountain bikers then don't insist that your machines are bicycles.


a class 1 mtn.bike, like a bicycle won't move without pedaling. unless, like a bicycle it's going downhill.


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## r.f.d. (Jan 22, 2021)

r.f.d. said:


> a class 1 mtn.bike, like a bicycle won't move without pedaling. unless, like a bicycle it's going downhill.


sorry i mean to say a e-mtn.bike. ( the most modern and popular e-mtn.bikes) are low powered pedal assist BICYCLES!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You're 5 years late to the conversation.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

r.f.d. said:


> a class 1 mtn.bike, like a bicycle won't move without pedaling. unless, like a bicycle it's going downhill.


Well you do have to turn the pedals around, you don't really have to apply much pressure if you don't want to though.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The attitudes of those adamantly opposed to eMTB haven't changed in the past five years in socal, but the number of electric advocates sure has increased. Surprisingly (to me), I ride MTB at least three times a week and eMTB only once or twice.


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## rockman2020 (Jan 21, 2021)

fos'l said:


> The attitudes of those adamantly opposed to eMTB haven't changed in the past five years in socal, but the number of electric advocates sure has increased. Surprisingly (to me), I ride MTB at least three times a week and eMTB only once or twice.


True, but the rules are changing. For example now in Colorado: Colorado Parks and Wildlife


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

CO is more progressive than socal in increasing access. Still, enforcement appears minimal or absent here, so individuals pretty much ride where they want (for those who claim that I'm encouraging poaching, it's a fact that's intuitively evident to anyone with a brain).


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Following


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## smittylube (Mar 21, 2009)

Sure sounds a lot like the longboard shortboard debate.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

smittylube said:


> Sure sounds a lot like the longboard shortboard debate.


No, that's 26" vs 29".


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## mtbdudex (Jan 13, 2020)

Following, I’m in Michigan 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

One would need to be a lover of necrophilia to read this thread, but five years ago e-MTB was a hoot. Every thread (maybe I'm exaggerating a little) would turn into an access issue, and sometimes be peppered with pictures of e-bikes with giant motors (possible, but not very practical). In Orange County, CA the antagonists prevailed and e-MTB's aren't allowed in any off road area that I'm aware of that isn't open to any street legal vehicle, but the activity still flourishes (like other forms that aren't permitted) because the level of policing is minimal (I was accused of encouraging illegal activity in pointing out the obvious by an individual(s) who apparently didn't employ two things (eyes and brain).


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## smittylube (Mar 21, 2009)

I just found this.

Interim E-Bike Rules: The BLM is in the process of modifying regulations that currently classify electric bicycles (e-bikes) as "motorized vehicles" that are prohibited from operating on the non-motorized roads and trails at.... Until those regulations are modified, the BLM is granting a blanket exemption for riders to operate pedal assist e-bikes on the Monument roads and trails that are also open to traditional bicycles. Class 2 e-bikes (throttle operated), must be pedaled while operated on the monument roads and trails that are closed to vehicles.

It sounds like hope on the horizon for more ebike trail access


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

fos'l said:


> The attitudes of those adamantly opposed to eMTB haven't changed in the past five years in socal, but the number of electric advocates sure has increased. Surprisingly (to me), I ride MTB at least three times a week and eMTB only once or twice.


We are seeing more acceptance both on the trails and even from some of our more adamant ones that were opposed on our site. The abuse and jailbraking that was originally thought that was going to be a problem a number of years ago is pretty much non existant the same with the inexperinced riders getting in over their heads. The majority of eMTB'ers I see and meet on the trail are experienced riders who either have switched over or have an eMTB in their stable now.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The arguments that were promulgated years ago were (mostly) BS, just to incite e-MTB users or give the Sierra Club and its advocates ammunition, IMO. Arguments about e-MTB causing more trail damage, inexperienced riders getting in over their heads, physically challenged riders being stranded when their bikes quit and individuals having dead batteries, so throwing them away in the woods seem to be a joke now since I've never heard of an instance. It's too bad the bad actors chased away some good devotees. I told FC the forum would languish unless we allowed reports on bikes, accessories and DIY, in this forum and confine access issues to a separate one.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

I call mine a bike and ride it everywhere without an issue.
Had a great time in the mountains today and nobody around or cared. Carry on folks and don't bother to flame because it won't change me.
Too old to bother and lost most access to any trails on anything here in Calif long before eBikes.
Go enjoy your ride on whatever you have.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Dirtrider127 said:


> I call mine a bike and ride it everywhere without an issue.


Similar with when we started seeing shaped skis hit...they were called Parabolics (a specific shape) or cheaters (sound familiar?) now they are just called "skis".


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

When the trails are muddy or too hot to ride around here, I ride our city greenbelt located along the river with lots of shade and cooler in summer and hard surfaced for winter/spring urban riding. Been seeing lots of ebikes lately, and the greenbelt is basically flat. Riders range in age, but for the most part, I'd say older people 50+ are the majority. My only gripe, most of them go too fast. I have to ask myself, what's their rush? There are lots of riders on non-motorized bikes going at a much safer and sane speed, who won't ever be causing an accident, but I'm not so sure about the ebike riders. With families and dogs using the green belt it's only a matter of time before some idiot going too fast causes an accident, if not already. The really scary thing is some of the fastest are the oldest, 60+.
I'm all for e-bikes and planning to get one myself, but the speed they make possible for people who would never be able to pedal that fast is scary. I foresee a ban on them in the future for the green belt after there have been enough complaints made. Hope not, but those few idiots who speed through groups of people will ruin it for all of them.


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## Portland 29er (Sep 16, 2020)

primoz said:


> I'm pretty sure we didn't talk in person, but thing is, I was totally for e-mtb... until I made few 100km in Livigno, Italy, and another few 100km in Dolomites, Italy in last 2 weeks. Then I completely changed my mind, and I'm totally against it... well in certain cases, I'm still for it.
> But let me explain. Why I'm for e-mtb. First, I have no intention to ride e-bike. I have my legs, lungs and heart to drive me up the hill. But some people are not as lucky as I am, and are handicapped (being 50kg overweight is >NOT!!!< handicap, but your fu**cked up life style). So for these people, I was actually happy they invented e-mtbs, as it would make it possible to get out and enjoy same trails as I do with my own power.
> But I guess that was a dream. Reality is, that until now, I didn't really see a single handicapped person on e-bike, and I saw quite few on normal, human powered mtb, and every single one I have seen on mtb was just simply too damn lazy to pedal. If your "handicap" is 5 hamburgers and 10 liters of beer a day, then fu**k it, you don't have right to enjoy the same trails as I do. Change your life style and you will be able to enjoy those trails.
> And honestly, I was really surprised, as at the moment, trails around Livigno and in Dolomites have currently 40 to 60% ration... With e-mtb being at 60% and human powered bikes at 40% (not talking about bike parks but normal trails around mountains). So it's not "who cares about bike or two". Considering there's few 1000 riders in Livigno every day, 50+% of that on e-mtb is HUGE number. And as they were never cycling or even going out hiking, their culture and behavior in nature is somehow non-existing.
> PS: It still beats me, why would someone even go for e-mtb... just get MX bike and it's going to be even a bit easier, you won't need to pedal at all.


What language is this. I can't decipher what the point of this post is. I suggest posting in your native language or skipping the comments altogether.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Portland 29er said:


> What language is this. I can't decipher what the point of this post is. I suggest posting in your native language or skipping the comments altogether.


Your replying to a post from 5 years ago....Do you think they are still alive? Do you think they care what you think?


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

tom tom said:


> Your replying to a post from 5 years ago....Do you think they are still alive? Do you think they care what you think?


Last seen 16h ago. They're still kicking 😁


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

smittylube said:


> Interim E-Bike Rules: The BLM is in the process of modifying regulations that currently classify electric bicycles (e-bikes) as "motorized vehicles" that are prohibited from operating on the non-motorized roads and trails at.... Until those regulations are modified, the BLM is granting a blanket exemption for riders to operate pedal assist e-bikes on the Monument roads and trails that are also open to traditional bicycles. Class 2 e-bikes (throttle operated), must be pedaled while operated on the monument roads and trails that are closed to vehicles.
> 
> It sounds like hope on the horizon for more ebike trail access


The BLM literally does not give a sh!t what's done on its land. You can ride through a mile of BLM land and encounter mining claims, cattle, 4-wheelin' yahoos shooting guns, homeless encampments, fossil hunters, tons of litter, and people hauling away landscape rock. It is by far and away the most abused land in the west.

I wouldn't hold up the BLM as a responsible agency crafting thoughtful regulations.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Harryman said:


> No doubt that's the case where you live, which as you've pointed out has very few users spread over a massive amount of terrain. Its easy for everyone to get along when you don't encounter that many people.
> 
> Here, it's a different story and one that is a lot more common, with a lot of users of all stripes and a limited amount of trail miles. 100% of the mtb riders I've asked about emtbs are against allowing them on non motorized.


I have yet to meet someone that is against emtb on our mtb trails, they could care less, and this is 2 different bike shop owners, active trail maintenance guys, etc...I guess some ride and some micromanage and *****.


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

fos'l said:


> I think that rather than being fragmented e-MTB and MTB advocates should be united. This forum suggests strongly this isn't possible. Accordingly, MTB assistance isn't being asked for by eMTB advocates. We get it; we don't need you, so your comments that you aren't going to help us are pointless. Does any ebike proponent disagree?


I disagree. Also, I'm speaking from the position of a Class-1 ebike. 

We should be united as a single front and acoustic or pedal only mtb'rs should recognize that we need to stand together to continue our current access and expand it if possible. I've been mountain biking since I was a kid (70's) on my Schwinn Stingray (not technically mountain biking I guess but we were certainly riding "single track" deer trails and hiking trails in local parks), and officially riding a mtb since '94. We've always had a hard time against land management's bias's and were blamed for any erosion, trail disputes (not always incorrectly), and any other evils in this world. Being a new owner of an e-mtb, I find it really disheartening that many of today's acoustic mtr's are of the exact same mindset of the hikers "my way or NO way" of our past. Instead, we should be banded together. After all, a house divided.....


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

primoz said:


> I'm pretty sure we didn't talk in person, but thing is, I was totally for e-mtb... until I made few 100km in Livigno, Italy, and another few 100km in Dolomites, Italy in last 2 weeks. Then I completely changed my mind, and I'm totally against it... well in certain cases, I'm still for it.
> But let me explain. Why I'm for e-mtb. First, I have no intention to ride e-bike. I have my legs, lungs and heart to drive me up the hill. But some people are not as lucky as I am, and are handicapped (being 50kg overweight is >NOT!!!< handicap, but your fu**cked up life style). So for these people, I was actually happy they invented e-mtbs, as it would make it possible to get out and enjoy same trails as I do with my own power.
> But I guess that was a dream. Reality is, that until now, I didn't really see a single handicapped person on e-bike, and I saw quite few on normal, human powered mtb, and every single one I have seen on mtb was just simply too damn lazy to pedal. If your "handicap" is 5 hamburgers and 10 liters of beer a day, then fu**k it, you don't have right to enjoy the same trails as I do. Change your life style and you will be able to enjoy those trails.
> And honestly, I was really surprised, as at the moment, trails around Livigno and in Dolomites have currently 40 to 60% ration... With e-mtb being at 60% and human powered bikes at 40% (not talking about bike parks but normal trails around mountains). So it's not "who cares about bike or two". Considering there's few 1000 riders in Livigno every day, 50+% of that on e-mtb is HUGE number. And as they were never cycling or even going out hiking, their culture and behavior in nature is somehow non-existing.
> PS: It still beats me, why would someone even go for e-mtb... just get MX bike and it's going to be even a bit easier, you won't need to pedal at all.


I find your post no better than any Sierra Club or Marin county hiker who believes it's their way or no way. We must all enjoy our sport the way YOU like to enjoy it. 

Also, you see people riding an e-bike and you don't see handicaps. Perhaps they didn't have any but you're no different than someone (and perhaps are one of these) who sees someone parking in a handicap parking space and walking "normally" to their destination and label them immediately as cheaters, when in fact, they may be suffering from heart disease, or some other disability that YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT, BUT YOU STILL JUDGE THEM. 

Let us enjoy our trails as we like or need to. It's not hurting you at all..


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Please post all future comments regarding this topic in this thread.
Thanks,
=sParty


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

fredman1085 said:


> I disagree. Also, I'm speaking from the position of a Class-1 ebike.
> 
> We should be united as a single front and acoustic or pedal only mtb'rs should recognize that we need to stand together to continue our current access and expand it if possible. I've been mountain biking since I was a kid (70's) on my Schwinn Stingray (not technically mountain biking I guess but we were certainly riding "single track" deer trails and hiking trails in local parks), and officially riding a mtb since '94. We've always had a hard time against land management's bias's and were blamed for any erosion, trail disputes (not always incorrectly), and any other evils in this world. Being a new owner of an e-mtb, I find it really disheartening that many of today's acoustic mtr's are of the exact same mindset of the hikers "my way or NO way" of our past. Instead, we should be banded together. After all, a house divided.....


My comment, from years ago, came at a time when most of the posters to this forum were vehemently anti-e. Plus, we were informed that the MTB crowd didn't want us being associated with them even though many of us had been MTBer's for years and had participated in going to meetings, trail building and other activities in order to have MTB accepted. Apparently this didn't transfer to our "e" activities. So I told the anti crowd to F off!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

fredman1085 said:


> I disagree. Also, I'm speaking from the position of a Class-1 ebike.
> 
> We should be united as a single front and acoustic or pedal only mtb'rs should recognize that we need to stand together to continue our current access and expand it if possible. I've been mountain biking since I was a kid (70's) on my Schwinn Stingray (not technically mountain biking I guess but we were certainly riding "single track" deer trails and hiking trails in local parks), and officially riding a mtb since '94. We've always had a hard time against land management's bias's and were blamed for any erosion, trail disputes (not always incorrectly), and any other evils in this world. Being a new owner of an e-mtb, I find it really disheartening that many of today's acoustic mtr's are of the exact same mindset of the hikers "my way or NO way" of our past. Instead, we should be banded together. After all, a house divided.....


Keep calling mountain bikes "acoustic" bikes and you'll continue to find that mountain bikers want nothing to do with ebikes.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Silentfoe said:


> Keep calling mountain bikes "acoustic" bikes and you'll continue to find that mountain bikers want nothing to do with ebikes.


We've been through this. To summarize...
The way to the anti-ebiker's heart is via referring to mountain bikes as either "Amish" or "ambient" bikes.
They love this!
=Amish sParty


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

Silentfoe said:


> Keep calling mountain bikes "acoustic" bikes and you'll continue to find that mountain bikers want nothing to do with ebikes.


*Indeed. That's why I'm careful never to use the A-Word. 
Instead, I refer to them as "Antique" or "Amish." *


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## fredman1085 (10 mo ago)

Silentfoe said:


> Keep calling mountain bikes "acoustic" bikes and you'll continue to find that mountain bikers want nothing to do with ebikes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk



Sorry, I'd never heard the term before coming to these forums, I thought that's how pedal only bikers referred to themselves. It made sense, electric vs acoustic. I ride both but prefer my e-mtb now and pedal only for the road. Its just more fun for me, and that's really why I ride, to have fun. I also love climbing but at my age and other things going on, I just can't do what I did 25 years ago. I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone by using that terminology.


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## manitunc (Jun 1, 2019)

Can’t tell if the ebike has been de restricted and therefore we should ban it? We can’t tell if the driver in the car beside us is drunk but we don’t ban driving. Arrest and charge the people who break the law by derestricting their ebike. And if speed is the issue we should remove all the hikers and horse back riders because they’re too slow and they get in the way when we’re running downhill. My bike is limited to 20 mph and I can’t maintain that speed going up most hills. But I guarantee Nino Schurter can pass me going uphill anytime he wants. And he certainly faster than me going downhill. I think we should ban Nino from riding on trails also is he’s a danger to all other users.
I have compared my speeds on Strava with other mountain bike users. I’ve never been in the top 10 for the day on my E bike compared to non-Ebike riders. Forget about top 10 for the year. There are plenty of non-E bike riders that are much faster than your average ebike rider. Those are real facts not made up ones by people who are promoting a position.


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## manitunc (Jun 1, 2019)

If the definition of a bicycle is that it requires human input to move, then a class1 ebike is a bicycle in that it does not move unless human input is applied to the pedal. Beyond that, there is assistance through the motor, or through torque amplification through gears, or longer crank arms or whatever.if you want to be pure, get a unicycle.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

manitunc said:


> If the definition of a bicycle is that it requires human input to move, then a class1 ebike is a bicycle in that it does not move unless human input is applied to the pedal.


By this inane definition, an automobile is also a bicycle.


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## manitunc (Jun 1, 2019)

D. Inoobinati said:


> By this inane definition, an automobile is also a bicycle.


Why, because you push a gas pedal. That doesn’t directly cause the vehicle to move. It sets in motion a number of other events which causes the vehicle to move. I guess a pedal car could comply if it only had two wheels, the “bi” in bicycle.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Recycling the same old arguments. Closed.


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