# Fitness/Endurance Help



## benjiak47 (Sep 2, 2012)

I work long hours behind a desk (typically 50-60 hours a week). I’m trying to improve my fitness, but I generally get to bike on weekends. What are some solutions to increasing fitness during the week?

Is a Peloton a viable solution? Would a regular exercise bike be better, or worse, than Peloton? Is running good for biking stamina (i.e. would running, which generally takes only 30 minutes or so, provide any significant stamina increases)?

Other ideas?

Thanks, all!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Running is good for aerobic endurance. A Peloton is good but I'd get a smart trainer instead and use some of the extra cash for a zwift account. Riding indoors sucks compared to the real thing but it's real handy to get an hour or so ride in before or after work or during inclement weather and it's easy to follow a semi-structured plan with them. Combine that with yoga and/or weight lifting routine a few times a week and your fitness will improve for sure.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Peloton is far more engaging than a trainer and Zwift, IMO. I have both, and am selling the trainer and bike that went on it. The PowerZone program will give you everything you need to build decent fitness.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

I use trainerroad for this purpose and enjoy it.


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## toyotatacomaTRD (Apr 4, 2012)

I just picked up an Echelon EX3. Plan on using the $13 a month Peloton app as $39 a month was hard to stomach if I don't like it. Bike was $650. In the past I've always struggled to stay motivated on treadmills and trainers, hence the budget Peloton. 

4 of the last 5 riding seasons have been ruined by unhealthy air due to wildfire smoke. I always get in super good shape, then bam. 
Plan on using the spin bike on days too bad to ride or days without enough time and also during the winter months.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Running helps and gets you outside. 

You can also do pushups, situps, etc. throughout the day. This can work well if you don't have a block of time to dedicate, just do a set of pushups and an ab exercise or whatever every few hours, takes maybe 5 minutes.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

Get yourself a cheap road bike and bike at least 45min per day at 120%HR. 
I know it sounds easy but stick with it for long term and it will do wonders.

If you do anything crazy or look for short term gain, you will probably quit within few months.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lewis9 said:


> Get yourself a cheap road bike and bike at least 45min per day at 120%HR.
> I know it sounds easy but stick with it for long term and it will do wonders.
> 
> If you do anything crazy or look for short term gain, you will probably quit within few months.


120% of what? Do yo mean 120bpm? Agree that riding regularly (not every day though) is good for fitness but that's nearly impossible to do outdoors when you're working 50-60 hours a week. That's why an indoor trainer can really help.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> 120% of what? Do yo mean 120bpm? Agree that riding regularly (not every day though) is good for fitness but that's nearly impossible to do outdoors when you're working 50-60 hours a week. That's why an indoor trainer can really help.


120% of max HR.
I agree, indoor training is great if that's the only option but not sure if anyone can do that for long term solution. Cheap road bike + cheap wheel on trainer would probably the best.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lewis9 said:


> 120% of max HR.
> I agree, indoor training is great if that's the only option but not sure if anyone can do that for long term solution. Cheap road bike + cheap wheel on trainer would probably the best.


??? Riding at 120% max heart rate is impossible by definition. Riding at 100% max heart rate is only sustainable for a few minutes, doing it for 45 minutes (if that were possible) would likely kill you. If you did super high intensity workouts 7 days a week your fitness would quickly plummet.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> ??? Riding at 120% max heart rate is impossible by definition. Riding at 100% max heart rate is only sustainable for a few minutes, doing it for 45 minutes (if that were possible) would likely kill you. If you did super high intensity workouts 7 days a week your fitness would quickly plummet.


Oops 🙊 total brain fart haha.
65% of mhr. Which for me is 120.
I blame it on the Vaccine that I just got.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lol that's what I was thinking when you first wrote it.

Indoor training is sustainable btw, lot's of people have been doing it for years. Most use it as a supplement, me included. Riding lot's of zone 2 (~65% max hr) is great for overall health but if you want to get fitter you have to limit it and add intensity a few times a week. Regular rest & recovery days (completely off) are super important, especially for older athletes.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

Ride your bike to work.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Are you looking for a variety of fitness activities to supplement mtb? From my own experience, I didn't find spinning (or now Peloton etc) had much impact on improving my overall fitness ie strength or endurance. And I did spinning for years!. What helped me was strength training and increased cardio.

Not everyone will agree, but cross training is great for your brain and body. If you are looking to improve your cardio then running is probably the best alternative. You can do it year round, all types of weather, at any time, minimal gear. It's great training to work on sprints, intervals, distance, speed etc. Strength training will benefit your bones, joints, core strength, muscle tone, balance and flexibility etc. Personally I like a variety of activities.

Here's a good read:








Why Masters Cyclists Need Strength Training | TrainingPeaks


Maintaining strong muscles and good bone density is a necessity for masters cyclists. Here’s why strength training is your key to a lifelong cycling career.




trainingpeaks.com


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## bikeranzin (Oct 2, 2018)

I don't think anything can really compete with running for a time-limited athlete. I'll use the term athlete here since the fitness progression is what so many athletes are interested in, so the same principles apply. The simple fact that you only need shoes, and can do it virtually anywhere, and can get a really good workout in less time, means that it's the best bang for your buck, assuming that you like running and/or can stick with it. Also, "running gear" doesn't really break, so maintenance is almost 0. Bonus: It's actually not surprising to see runners do really well in bike races because the engine you build is huge, and the run-to-bike fitness transfer is pretty good (the reverse is laughably not true though, high level cyclists don't often make good runners).

Personally, I am not an avid runner, so I make other life sacrifices to provide adequate time to do all of my workouts on the bike, and ideally outside. But seriously, if you have lets say 30 minutes and you want to improve your endurance, I can't think of anything that would be a better fit.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Riding Zone 2 (65-70% of max HR) won't do much if you only do it for 45 minutes. That kinda of training is great if you have time to do 2.5 hours or more per session. For time constrained training, you really have to increase intensity and your risk of over training is low given the low amount of time that you train. I'm also a fan of training on the bike as much of possible if your goal is to improve bike fitness. Running and Yoga will not improve your muscular endurance for cycling. If you had more time, then cross training is a nice supplement but if you only have a few hours a week, spend it on the bike.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

tick_magnet said:


> Riding Zone 2 (65-70% of max HR) won't do much if you only do it for 45 minutes. That kinda of training is great if you have time to do 2.5 hours or more per session. For time constrained training, you really have to increase intensity and your risk of over training is low given the low amount of time that you train. I'm also a fan of training on the bike as much of possible if your goal is to improve bike fitness. Running and Yoga will not improve your muscular endurance for cycling. If you had more time, then cross training is a nice supplement but if you only have a few hours a week, spend it on the bike.


Nope. If I had to guess you are probably a TR user. Correct me if I'm wrong though. 
Research shows that cardio efforts of 45 minutes is when your body starts producing peak levels of HGH which is key for muscular development. Efforts of 90 minutes is when you hit the point of severely diminishing returns when it comes to capillarization and mitochondira buildup. Efforts beyond 90 minutes give you severely decreased levels of cardio benefit, but your body begins to learn how to process your energy stores (glycogen, fat stores) more efficiently.

Although, If you only have time to ride 2-3 times per week, you won't see much improvement no matter what type of training you do.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

lewis9 said:


> Nope. If I had to guess you are probably a TR user. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
> Research shows that cardio efforts of 45 minutes is when your body starts producing peak levels of HGH which is key for muscular development. Efforts of 90 minutes is when you hit the point of severely diminishing returns when it comes to capillarization and mitochondira buildup. Efforts beyond 90 minutes give you severely decreased levels of cardio benefit, but your body begins to learn how to process your energy stores (glycogen, fat stores) more efficiently.
> 
> Although, If you only have time to ride 2-3 times per week, you won't see much improvement no matter what type of training you do.


Not a Trainer Road user. Just a guy who reads a lot of fitness stuff and experiments with different strategies for racing. Show me the paper(s) that says HGH peaks at 45 minutes with Zone 2 training. I have seen papers that show this to be true with Zone 5 training but have never heard about Zone 2 doing this.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

tick_magnet said:


> Not a Trainer Road user. Just a guy who reads a lot of fitness stuff and experiments with different strategies for racing. Show me the paper(s) that says HGH peaks at 45 minutes with Zone 2 training. I have seen papers that show this to be true with Zone 5 training but have never heard about Zone 2 doing this.


Ok.. I will gladly dig up research papers if you are willing to do same from your end. Please show me research that doing HIT is the best way to train when you have limited of hours and please don't give me articles from TR. They are bunch of morons who don't know what they are doing.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

The exercise-induced growth hormone response in athletes - PubMed


Human growth hormone (hGH) is secreted in a pulsatile fashion, generally following a circadian rhythm. A number of physiological stimuli can initiate hGH secretion, the most powerful, non-pharmacological of which are sleep and exercise. hGH has many varied roles throughout life, from growth...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I should also mention that I am not a fan of Trainer Road or sweet spot training (Zone 3 and low Zone 4). My personal approach is about 80% zone 2 and about 20% high Zone 4 and Zone 5. In other words, I ride pretty easy or really hard and avoid the middle zones. 

My advice to the OP is for someone who has limited time not for someone looking for the optimal strategy. Limited time means you do what you can. When I trained less than 7 hours using lots of Zone 3, I was slow in the races. When I went to polarized training at 10 hours +, I consistently finished near the podium in 1.5 to 2 hour XC races. Also, when I did less than 1.5 hours of zone 2, I was slow pretty much all around.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

tick_magnet said:


> The exercise-induced growth hormone response in athletes - PubMed
> 
> 
> Human growth hormone (hGH) is secreted in a pulsatile fashion, generally following a circadian rhythm. A number of physiological stimuli can initiate hGH secretion, the most powerful, non-pharmacological of which are sleep and exercise. hGH has many varied roles throughout life, from growth...
> ...


Doesn't really say HIT is the best way to train if you are time crunched but ok.









Feel the beat of heart rate training - Harvard Health


A good way to maintain moderate intensity during exercise is with heart rate training, in which a person exercises at 60% to 75% of maximum heart rate. Wearing a heart rate monitor while exercising...




www.health.harvard.edu










You NEED Long Duration, Low Intensity Cardio - Robertson Training Systems


Everyone is in love with high-intensity interval training. But could long duration, low intensity exercise help you move and feel better? The answer may surprise you...




robertsontrainingsystems.com













Aerobic base training: Going slower to get faster


One of the hardest concepts for an athlete to understand and implement is base training. It's counterintuitive to run or bike slowly in order to gain performance later in the season, but if you have the discipline to do so, you'll be rewarded.




www.active.com





Also check out Stephen Seiler. Who is a leading researcher behind 80/20 polarized workout. 
But again, nothing really matters if you can't exercise 2-3 times per wk.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lewis9 said:


> Ok.. I will gladly dig up research papers if you are willing to do same from your end. Please show me research that doing HIT is the best way to train when you have limited of hours and please don't give me articles from TR. They are bunch of morons who don't know what they are doing.


Morons? Seriously? They have taken a lot of flak for prescribing too much high intensity but there is a ton of science that backs them up and thousands of athletes have made dramatic improvements following their programs. If you're short on time then high intensity training is absolutely the way to go but like any type of training it has to be done correctly. Lots of athletes get crazy fast training only 4-7 hours a week and they're not doing it in z-2, definitely not exclusively anyway.

Conversely pro athletes who train a ton spend a ton of time in z-2 and frequently do 5+ hour rides in that zone. There's no one right way to get faster but there are wrong ways. As I previously mentioned spending 45 minutes a day 4 or 5 times a week in z-2 is great for cardiovascular health and overall wellness but it won't make you fast.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

benjiak47 said:


> I work long hours behind a desk (typically 50-60 hours a week). I'm trying to improve my fitness, but I generally get to bike on weekends. What are some solutions to increasing fitness during the week?
> 
> Other ideas?


Ride to work, ferfuxsake. If you can't ride all the way, spend that Peloton money on a bike rack and drive your bike part of the way.

Solve two problems: global warming and crappy health.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Morons? Seriously? They have taken a lot of flak for prescribing too much high intensity but there is a ton of science that backs them up and thousands of athletes have made dramatic improvements following their programs. If you're short on time then high intensity training is absolutely the way to go but like any type of training it has to be done correctly. Lots of athletes get crazy fast training only 4-7 hours a week and they're not doing it in z-2, definitely not exclusively anyway.
> 
> Conversely pro athletes who train a ton spend a ton of time in z-2 and frequently do 5+ hour rides in that zone. There's no one right way to get faster but there are wrong ways. As I previously mentioned spending 45 minutes a day 4 or 5 times a week in z-2 is great for cardiovascular health and overall wellness but it won't make you fast.


Yes you will be fast if you are only doing high intensity training. But how long do you think it's going to last before you over train? Trust me I was on their program for 2 yrs. 
Ask any right minded cycling coach if doing 4-5 intervals per week is a good idea.









Dylan Johnson's "The Problem with TrainerRoad Training Plans": it's gonna be a busy day around here


submitted without comment, I just started watching lol




www.trainerroad.com




There are many people who have gone through this and almost made them quit cycling due to constant interval training.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lewis9 said:


> Yes you will be fast if you are only doing high intensity training. But how long do you think it's going to last before you over train? Trust me I was on their program for 2 yrs.
> Ask any right minded cycling coach if doing 4-5 intervals per week is a good idea.


I never said exclusively HIT, of course you have to mix it up some. Only saying that riding exclusively in z-2 will get you nowhere as far as getting faster goes.

If the trainer road guys are morons who know nothing then explain all the successful athletes they coach. Dylan Johnson is a great athlete and apparently a really good coach too but he also prescribes a lot of sweet spot and high intensity training, The important thing is to get the right mix and to make sure that you get enough recovery between high intensity sessions.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

lewis9 said:


> Doesn't really say HIT is the best way to train if you are time crunched but ok.


The abstract says: "An exercise intensity above lactate threshold and for a minimum of 10 minutes appears to elicit the greatest stimulus to the secretion of hGH. Exercise training above the lactate threshold may amplify the pulsatile release of hGH at rest, increasing 24-hour hGH secretion."

I don't know how you define time crunched, but 10 minutes sounds pretty good to me. 
In any case, I read through your links and I don't think there is anything there that I disagree with. Like I said in my previous post, most of my training is low intensity at 60-75% of max heart rate. We probably only disagree on the duration. And the other thing we probably should do is ask the Op what his goals are. If he just wants general fitness, then 45 minutes is probably fine. If he wants to be fast, 45 minutes of Zone 2 isn't going to get him there without adding significant amounts of higher intensity.

I also agree with both you and JB that every day of high intensity is not good. But for a person training less than 7 hours and cares at all about being fast (again, we don't know if OP cares about this), he needs to train above Zone 2 for a significant percentage of his training. Sweet spot is not ideal but probably better than 100% zone 2 for someone training only two or three hours during the week. And then sprinkle in a couple sessions of Zone 5.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I never said exclusively HIT, of course you have to mix it up some. Only saying that riding exclusively in z-2 will get you nowhere as far as getting faster goes.
> 
> If the trainer road guys are morons who know nothing then explain all the successful athletes they coach. Dylan Johnson is a great athlete and apparently a really good coach too but he also prescribes a lot of sweet spot and high intensity training, The important thing is to get the right mix and to make sure that you get enough recovery between high intensity sessions.


Dylan Johnson recently posted a video where he took Train Road plans to task. He seems to be a pro polarized training guy now.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> Dylan Johnson recently posted a video where he took Train Road plans to task. He seems to be a pro polarized training guy now.


Trainer Road posted a video rebutting the Dylan Johnson video. Both had good points and both support polarized training.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I never said exclusively HIT, of course you have to mix it up some. Only saying that riding exclusively in z-2 will get you nowhere as far as getting faster goes.
> 
> If the trainer road guys are morons who know nothing then explain all the successful athletes they coach.


Riding Z2 most of the time and hitting the trails on the wknd is plenty of intensity and should follow pretty closely with 80/20 rule.

Honestly I totally understand you for being defensive about TR. It got me to 3.7w/kg from couch potato really quickly. But how sustainable is it? Think about.... building base by doing exclusively sweet spot workout? 
You have to literally get on the bike every time with gladiator mindset just to get through the work out.

Just read the their own forum and you will find plenty of people quitting or being over trained from their workout.

All I'm going to say is be open minded and look for other type of training methods, start with Stephen Seiler.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

lewis9 said:


> Riding Z2 most of the time and hitting the trails on the wknd is plenty of intensity and should follow pretty closely with 80/20 rule.
> 
> Honestly I totally understand you for being defensive about TR. It got me to 3.7w/kg from couch potato really quickly. But how sustainable is it? Think about.... building base by doing exclusively sweet spot workout?
> You have to literally get on the bike every time with gladiator mindset just to get through the work out.
> ...


I'm not a trainer fanboi either, just saying they're definitely not morons and that there are successful athletes who have been following their plans for years. The plan I'm following now, which is prescribed by a professional coach and former pro athlete shares science and training philosophies from Trainer Road, Dylan Johnson, and many others.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not a trainer fanboi either, just saying they're definitely not morons and that there are successful athletes who have been following their plans for years. The plan I'm following now, which is prescribed by a professional coach and former pro athlete shares science and training philosophies from Trainer Road, Dylan Johnson, and many others.


TBH they are.... if you are gifted and work hard you can be fast under any crappy training. 
I still remember Nate preaching to Keegan Swenson saying that no pros do polarized training.


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

BTW if anyone wants to give TrainerRoad a go I have 3 "free month" referral codes to share. Shoot me a PM.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

lewis9 said:


> TBH they are.... if you are gifted and work hard you can be fast under any crappy training.
> I still remember Nate preaching to Keegan Swenson saying that no pros do polarized training.


Just watched a few Stephen Seiler videos and I don't see anywhere where he says low intensity steady state endurance training at 65% of max HR for 45 minutes is sufficient. In fact, in his Dec 15, 2020 video, he says even time crunched athletes should do one session a week where they do a steady state session of _at least_ 90 minutes and possibly 120 minutes.


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

tick_magnet said:


> Just watched a few Stephen Seiler videos and I don't see anywhere where he says low intensity steady state endurance training at 65% of max HR for 45 minutes is sufficient. In fact, in his Dec 15, 2020 video, he says even time crunched athletes should do one session a week where they do a steady state session of _at least_ 90 minutes and possibly 120 minutes.


Could you link me the video? I usually get his info from Fast Talk podcast which he appears pretty regularly.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

lewis9 said:


> Could you link me the video? I usually get his info from Fast Talk podcast which he appears pretty regularly.







See his response to question 5 starting at 10:22


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## lewis9 (Jan 12, 2020)

tick_magnet said:


> See his response to question 5 starting at 10:22


Thanks I will check it out when I get home.


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## LosaHilly (5 mo ago)

So, one hard terrain workout is not equal to three low-intensity workouts? This is a revelation for me, I thought it was enough to exercise just a little bit every day. UPD: Well, I checked with my trainer, and the exercise bike not only burns calories, but also converts them to energy. The risk of injury on it is low. It is suitable for those who can not run for a long time. And this is exactly my case. I think if the exercise bike is the only way you can keep yourself toned, then your muscles are not trained enough to put more strain on them. When you realize that it's not enough, increase the load. I read at TheFitnessTribe.com | Fitness Simplified that a gradual increase is better than one hard workout and a long break.


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## mtbcoach_co (Dec 31, 2009)

Depends on what your fitness goals are and aligning the goals with the time you have. Running is a great way to boost fitness for cycling. An indoor trainer is great when you are short on time or the weather is not cooperating. Many trainers will allow you to use your MTB, a road bike is not required. Zwift is great to just ride their courses or use their structured workouts based on the time you have. Zwift is much better than just spinning on the trainer with no interaction.


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## DarylEustoquio (2 mo ago)

hi


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

I really like intervals on the trainer during the work week. It's so easy to slot in a quick hour workout and feel amazing afterward. I use Trainerroad, but have used Zwift in the past as an interval workout player. I think Trainerroad's low volume polarized training base plan is sustainable over the long term, i.e. 2 1 hour long interval sessions per week (1 threshold, 1 VO2), and 2 days a week, (if you can) Z2 (or, easy endurance rides). Z2 is boring on the trainer, but watching Pinkbike videos on YouTube pretty much does the trick for me. Then you have your fun weekend ride(s) with friends on the MTB, completely at whatever pace you feel like and life is goooood!!! Yes, even time-crunched cyclists can benefit from Z2 short rides.

Running is great for general (non-bike specific) fitness, and great if you enjoy it as it's an efficient use of time, but as someone who already has a pretty big aerobic base from cycling, it doesn't do much for me other than add risk of injury.


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