# Problmes with manual



## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

Hi i want to nail this once and for all...

How to preforme the manual correctly? for example in this video the guy doesnt pull the handelbar at all he is just leanning backwords...


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## markf (Jan 17, 2007)

that is correct. it's almost entirely lower body. keep practicing.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

well its so frustrating i just keep pulling the front wheel and after a sec it gets back to the ground again even if i lean backwords low or high....i just need to find the right starting point..


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

threads on Manuals:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=411620l

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=641424&highlight=manual

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=511889&highlight=manual

and watch Martin Soderstrom


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

10x really helpful


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

from LeeLikesBikes.com










Also check this out.... I grabbed this photo of the internet and added the Red Triangle. 
---> If you think of a triangle with your body core, your feet, and the rear tire being points..... then you kind of start to get what it means to push the bottom bracket out forward and then get your body behind the wheel. The rear wheel is below you between those two points.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

This is partly what i am doing but i guess i am not pulling up hard enough.

By the way looking forward and not on the front wheel is also helpful


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

thunderbullet said:


> This is partly what i am doing but i guess i am not pulling up hard enough.
> 
> . . . .


it's not so much about pulling "up" hard.... it's more about shifting your body weight behind the rear wheel and pulling "back" on the bars and pushing your feet/cranks forward to lever the front wheel off the ground.

this center of mass of a triangle is called a "centroid." if the center of mass is perpendicular to the ground then the triangle will balance on the point. .you can kind of visualize that with manuals too.... by pushing your feet forward you are adjusting the wheel forward to keep it the "triangle" balanced.


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

How hard you need to "pull up" will depend on your bike setup. This is one of the few areas that the bike actually makes a difference in how easy or hard it is to manual. (A good rider can manual just about any setup.)
Long chainstays, lots of bb drop (low bottom bracket), and low bars will all require more of a pop to get into a manual position. The harder you have to pull, the easier it is to get squirrely!
The tradeoff, is that sometimes a bike that's harder to get into position will have a larger sweet spot for balance.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

sittingduck said:


> How hard you need to "pull up" will depend on your bike setup. This is one of the few areas that the bike actually makes a difference in how easy or hard it is to manual. (A good rider can manual just about any setup.)
> Long chainstays, lots of bb drop (low bottom bracket), and low bars will all require more of a pop to get into a manual position. The harder you have to pull, the easier it is to get squirrely!
> The tradeoff, is that sometimes a bike that's harder to get into position will have a larger sweet spot for balance.


Actually i am riding on a stock p1 2010, but i am starting to get this..
on the begging i though that speed is one of the important keys but now i understand that i can find the sweet spot even on a walking paste speed which helped me a lot getting the confident needed to learn this technique


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

thunderbullet said:


> Actually i am riding on a stock p1 2010, but i am starting to get this..
> on the begging i though that speed is one of the important keys but now i understand that i can find the sweet spot even on a walking paste speed which helped me a lot getting the confident needed to learn this technique


I have a weird request. Could you please have someone take a picture of you as you manual and post it here. I would like to see an approximation of where the sweet spot on a 2010 P1 is. I am having a ***** of a time getting this done on my 2010 P1. I know a different body will have a different sweet spot on the same bike, but still, it may help me.


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## boostin (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't think that you can be shown the sweet spot. Finding it takes practice. Take your bicycle and find an empty parking lot. Ride perpendicular to the parking lines and start trying to see how far you can hold your front wheel up, one lane, two lanes, three lanes... etc... until you get to a point where you can go far fairly consistently. 

Like other people have said, its more about getting your body back behind your rear wheel. Do not be afraid of the bike flying out from under you in case you go back to far. Its part of the learning curve

Remember, riding bikes is about riding bikes. The internet can only take you so far. 

Basically, go have fun riding your bicycle.


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

boostin said:


> I don't think that you can be shown the sweet spot. Finding it takes practice. Take your bicycle and find an empty parking lot. Ride perpendicular to the parking lines and start trying to see how far you can hold your front wheel up, one lane, two lanes, three lanes... etc... until you get to a point where you can go far fairly consistently.
> 
> Like other people have said, its more about getting your body back behind your rear wheel. Do not be afraid of the bike flying out from under you in case you go back to far. Its part of the learning curve
> 
> ...


Like I said, different bodies on the same bike will move that spot around but seeing someone else on the same bike just might help. There is no harm in asking for more data.

The parking lot idea is a nice one but you are assuming the parking lots around me are ever empty or not behind chain-link fences with gates and razor wire.

I cannot remember a time I have not had fun on a bike, btw. I actually commute on my P-DJ because it is a friken blast! The terrain between where I live and where I work is made for a DJ bike. I am just having trouble busting this manual. I see the manual as a final key.


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## Smasher! (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm just now getting the "sweet" spot set up on my 2010 P1. It's harder then it seems, but I practice it daily now. It seems I always do a crappy one first, then I pull up and lean back a second time and have a decent manual.

I also found if I straighten my legs, instead of bend them it seems to be better balance.

Idk about a pic, but I'll try for a video, then I can take a still frame out of that.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

boostin said:


> I don't think that you can be shown the sweet spot. Finding it takes practice. Take your bicycle and find an empty parking lot. Ride perpendicular to the parking lines and start trying to see how far you can hold your front wheel up, one lane, two lanes, three lanes... etc... until you get to a point where you can go far fairly consistently.
> 
> Like other people have said, its more about getting your body back behind your rear wheel. Do not be afraid of the bike flying out from under you in case you go back to far. Its part of the learning curve
> 
> ...


This is totally right , u can learn the basic concept from the internet but trying to learn the small and sensetive detailes will come from your body only...


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

Smasher! said:


> I'm just now getting the "sweet" spot set up on my 2010 P1. It's harder then it seems, but I practice it daily now. It seems I always do a crappy one first, then I pull up and lean back a second time and have a decent manual.
> 
> I also found if I straighten my legs, instead of bend them it seems to be better balance.
> 
> Idk about a pic, but I'll try for a video, then I can take a still frame out of that.


That would be cool. If you can't no biggie. I'm having a kinesthetic problem where I don't know when to push out and how to pull up/back. I know it is only a matter of time before I "get it". I wish I had more time to work on it daily like you can. I also wish I had east access to a pump track. That experience might inform me of some of the physics involved.


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## Smasher! (Aug 28, 2009)

Ayenn said:


> That would be cool. If you can't no biggie. I'm having a kinesthetic problem where I don't know when to push out and how to pull up/back. I know it is only a matter of time before I "get it". I wish I had more time to work on it daily like you can. I also wish I had east access to a pump track. That experience might inform me of some of the physics involved.


The thing I am having to work on MOST is braking. I want to really learn the controls of using my brake to control if I am going to fall over. Sure, leaning forward is easy...but braking is quicker. Everyone says to bend your knees, but I find having mine straight help me more, but it seems to depend on my speed? :???:


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

OK, as i am proggresing i i have another question.

When i lean backwords i feel like there is a certain point where the bike want to raise the nose a bit, is this the point where i should pull on the handelbar to get the wanted lift?


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

I felt like i must share this

one of the best videos ever to learn manual (the pulling part is very important)





More [URL=http://video.mpora.com/mountainbiking/]Mountain Biking Videos


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

thunderbullet said:


> I felt like i must share this
> 
> one of the best videos ever to learn manual (the pulling part is very important)


Excellent offering! I never would have thought of intentionally overthrowing the manual to find the balance point and then reducing the throw to find the balance. Hopefully I can carve out some free time to give that a shot.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

Ayenn said:


> Excellent offering! I never would have thought of intentionally overthrowing the manual to find the balance point and then reducing the throw to find the balance. Hopefully I can carve out some free time to give that a shot.


Yeah , and it also helps to pvercome the fear of looping out


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## hazdxb (Oct 11, 2008)

im just building on what thunder bullet said, like he said over come the fear of looping out, best way to do that is to get over that fear on grass so its a softer landing, but practice your manuals on concrete because they're much easier on a smooth terrain, its how i learned em and don't give up, it take quite a while to learn them.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

hazdxb said:


> im just building on what thunder bullet said, like he said over come the fear of looping out, best way to do that is to get over that fear on grass so its a softer landing, but practice your manuals on concrete because they're much easier on a smooth terrain, its how i learned em and don't give up, it take quite a while to learn them.


yes thats right, and even when my bikes reached thier limit i instinctly jumped away from them so no harm was done to my back or ass.


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

thunderbullet said:


> hazdxb said:
> 
> 
> > im just building on what thunder bullet said, like he said over come the fear of looping out, best way to do that is to get over that fear on grass so its a softer landing, but practice your manuals on concrete because they're much easier on a smooth terrain, its how i learned em and don't give up, it take quite a while to learn them.
> ...


I had planed on finding a nice stretch of level grass this weekend. I'll get over the concern of looping out soon enough. It is this whole "being a responsible husband" thing I didn't have 20 years ago. I tell ya, between the time that has passed and the 26" instead of a 20" it's like learning this stuff all over again. Oh how I miss that sense of invincibility!


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Just keep one finger on the end of the brake lever and tap your brakes if you start to loop out and you won't loop out. . . .


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## [dB]Will (Jan 25, 2007)

I've been sort of practicing manuals on my daily ride and actually held a nice little one today. It felt real nice but I got excited and when I went to do the next one I didn't have my finger on the brake and almost looped out. I caught it _just_ in time but went off into someones yard.  Man, I'm starting to get excited. Throughout my years of BMXing (~10) and MTB (~5) I have never been able to manual. It's a cool feeling.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

Ayenn said:


> . . .I wish I had more time to work on it daily like you can. I also wish I had east access to a pump track. That experience might inform me of some of the physics involved.


you are correct that daily riding is the key. i never fully learned them till college when i was riding to class every day on the same street manualing the same sidewalk, curbs etc. manualing is one of those things that requires you to be very in tune with your bike. even sometimes if i'm not riding for a while i have to work on them a little to get them back. riding every day and practicing them on a commute, i guarantee you will learn them waaaay faster than just the occasional weeknight or weekend session.

as for the 'pump track' . . . . flat ground manualing is a slightly different skill than manualing between rollers. some people can manual rollers but cant flat-ground manual good. anyway . . .there are things on regular city streets that are awesome to manual. thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act, wheelchair-ramps and wheel-chair ramp cutouts from curbs at intersections are awesome.

try using the up-bank to pull up into the manual. but even more important try riding up it then manualing down the backside and across the flat. if you can manual up, across, down, and flat . . then you're on your way to manualing multiple rollers at a pump track.


























even something like this, a bank to flat to bank. . . . .










try manual both up it and down it. . . . you have to adjust for the flat space, kind of a double pump. when you pull up into the manual then hit the incline your front wants to drop, lean back harder, then when you hit the flat spot your bike wants to loop out, so drop your bars lower, then hit the incline again and adjust your weight back again.


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## Ayenn (Jul 25, 2010)

That was actually interesting and helpful info!

I actually commute on my DJ and have started messing around on the sidewalk structures you describe when I can. Sadly, due to more than 20 years of street designing to combat skateboarders the place I live is startlingly flat.

A bit over 2 decades ago I was shedding around here pretty much anywhere I went. I then moved away for a while. In that time the cities I live in went on a rampage in rebuilding almost every place that had shredable features to be less attractive to skaters. The result is two poorly planed skateparks and flat flat flat.

There are sections of old sidewalk here and there that have settled in some interesting ways I go on my way to work every day.


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

If anyone is intersted, after a mounth of training i was managed to pick up a decent manual...

here have a look:


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## [dB]Will (Jan 25, 2007)

The vid isn't working sir 

I've been staying on the practice but I just can't quite hold one for more than 5 seconds or so. MY Komodo has a pretty slack HA and I almost think that helps. I tried to manual a bit on my gals Cannondale F7 Fem as it is a bit smaller than my bike, but it seems like her steep HA makes the front end a lot harder to pull up. Does that make ay sense? I've been riding around with her trying to get her prepped for trail riding but she was having problems pulling up the front wheel to get onto curbs and stuff. I thought it was just her but I now think the problem lies in the geometry of the bike...


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## thunderbullet (Jul 6, 2010)

[dB]Will said:


> The vid isn't working sir
> 
> I've been staying on the practice but I just can't quite hold one for more than 5 seconds or so. MY Komodo has a pretty slack HA and I almost think that helps. I tried to manual a bit on my gals Cannondale F7 Fem as it is a bit smaller than my bike, but it seems like her steep HA makes the front end a lot harder to pull up. Does that make ay sense? I've been riding around with her trying to get her prepped for trail riding but she was having problems pulling up the front wheel to get onto curbs and stuff. I thought it was just her but I now think the problem lies in the geometry of the bike...


Actually the thing that helped me the most is visualising i am going into a drop:
Streching out my legs while rolling the bike forward and extending my arms to the point where i cant anymore...and then keep rolling on the sweet spot is the 2nd objective.


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## haro: the zero one (Oct 26, 2010)

when i learned how i just watched peeps at the skate park and tried it myself. i found if you just get use to flippin it then you start to get a feel for the sweet spot on your bike. keep tryin to hold it at lower heights until your able to keep your manual goin for like ten feet or so. also different speeds. my friend brandon R.I.P. could manual at full speed better than any other speed so you might wanna try that to


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## PiroChu (Apr 8, 2004)

thunderbullet said:


> for example in this video the guy doesnt pull the handelbar at all he is just leanning backwords...


Mmmmm, personally I really like this kid's manual style, with the front wheel kept pretty low... :thumbsup:
(I just wish I could understand what he's saying, though, hahaha...)


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## CrankyMonkey (May 11, 2006)

Looping out over and over really does help you get a feel for the balance point. It also helps you get rid of that "Oh my god I'm going to die!" feeling you get when you are falling backwards.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

bump


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