# How an e-bike is making me a better overall rider



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Sounds impossible, doesn't it? Wouldn't an e-bike make someone more weak and lazy, and not more strong and motivated? Based on the below results, I would argue it's the latter:

1. I appreciate a lighter bike much more now. 
This doesn't necessarily happen on dirt, but on pavement a 56 lb e-bike rides about the same speed as a lightweight 15-20 lb road bike. At 200-350 watts, I am the same speed uphill as an experienced road biker with an expensive, lightweight bike. Which means the goal could certainly be a transition from an e-bike on pavement to a lightweight bike (road or mountain w/skinny tires), to see if a similar speed uphill could be achieved.

2. I want to ride faster on a normal bike.
Call it muscle memory, or just the memory of going faster with the e-bike. My mind constantly remembers going faster on the e-bike, even if it's on completely different trails. Which translates to me wanting to go faster on a normal bike. My overall loop times, climbing times, and average watts have improved on my normal bike since I've purchased an e-bike. I just don't want to ride at the same pace anymore, electric power or not.

3. I'm much more focused on specific 'good' trails with a normal bike.
I'm riding most of the time (at least most of the miles) on an e-bike, so if I only ride 1-2 times a week with a normal bike, it had better include a good downhill trail. No more messing around with gravel/fireroads on a normal bike. That's for the e-bike now. One may argue that I've lost something. No...I've lost nothing. I still do all kinds of trails and gravel/fireroads with both bikes, but they are simply differentiated now. And perhaps most importantly, I'm trying out new hills/mountains with the e-bike that I would not even think of doing with a normal bike. More experience, more trail diversity = more differentiation of what tools are in the garage to do specific jobs.

4. I'm logging more miles...and they are 100% pedal miles.
Zero throttle miles. These are not dirt bikes. You pedal all the time except when coasting, like like on a normal bike. Yes, you do not pedal as hard uphill as on a normal bike but it's still a workout, it's just a different workout. When all is said and done, and the ride is over, I may not be as excited about a great downhill ride, but I'm still satisfied and can still feel the endorphin rush after a good ride. Still fun, still rewarding.

5. Climbing is not a chore anymore.
It's a challenge now, not a chore, and it's way, way more fun. There have been many times that I've had maybe 60-90 minutes to get out and ride around my neighborhood, and I had to quickly choose between a normal bike and an e-bike. The majority of the time, probably 3/4 of the time the e-bike was chosen. And it wasn't to go downhill, it was to practice climbing. I actually chose to practice climbing instead of choosing to do a quick downhill session. And this happens often. Climbing has become fun. I've also learned by necessity to do a hybrid of crouching over the bars and front tire (the crawl) and standing up, where I mostly stand up but am leaning over the front tire at the same time. That ends up being a good win-win for torque on the pedals and keeping the front tire planted at the same time. If I didn't have the e-bike, I may have never learned this hybrid climbing technique.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

None of this makes sense to me.

In fact, I don't even know why I am here....


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

Friends dont let friends ride eMtbs on the road. 😁


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The mental gymnastics E-bike riders will use for justification is always interesting.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

It is equally interesting what those that despise e-bikes can craft up.
I wonder if, eventually, there will be less arguments surrounding e-bikes.

All new technology has haters and eventually the technology becomes acceptable. Can't wait to see what is next that gets the hate going to where the e-bike hate will be forgotten.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ And there it is, 6th post. Nice.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Forest Rider said:


> It is equally interesting what those that despise e-bikes can craft up.
> I wonder if, eventually, there will be less arguments surrounding e-bikes.
> 
> All new technology has haters and eventually the technology becomes acceptable. Can't wait to see what is next that gets the hate going to where the e-bike hate will be forgotten.


Not all new technology is accepted.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

JMac47 said:


> Friends dont let friends ride eMtbs on the road. ?


Humm, there's some logic here. If the road up is faster than climbing on a fire road, maybe it's a good option. Most of us are in it for the downhill. So, if you get a few more loops in your 3 hours climbing on the road, is it worth it to look the other way when your friend take off up the road.

Besides, he/she can take that option to taunt a snooty roadie as he/she zipps by


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Forest Rider said:


> It is equally interesting what those that despise e-bikes can craft up.
> I wonder if, eventually, there will be less arguments surrounding e-bikes.
> 
> All new technology has haters and eventually the technology becomes acceptable. Can't wait to see what is next that gets the hate going to where the e-bike hate will be forgotten.


Just ask a roadie 10 years ago about disc brakes. You'd get frowns and stuck up noses. Now, ask them today. (I'll quote a friend) "I'm getting downhill PRs all day. I just feel more confident in braking"


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> I've also learned by necessity to do *a hybrid of crouching over the bars and front tire (the crawl) and standing up, where I mostly stand up but am leaning over the front tire at the same time.* That ends up being a good win-win for torque on the pedals and keeping the front tire planted at the same time. If I didn't have the e-bike, I may have never learned this hybrid climbing technique.


Congrats!

You just disproved that riding your electric motor bicycle is making you a better overall rider.

While this goofy positioning might be necessary to maintain traction on your front wheel drive electric motor bicycle, that is exactly what you don't want to do to maintain traction on loose, steep climbs when riding a normal bike.

Extra points for not understanding this fundamental MTB truth!


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## Traditional50s (Feb 3, 2019)

Not sure why all the ebike haters hang out in the ebike forum. I had left mtbr forums due to all the hate. I was messaged for another thread I watched and popped in here....I suppose children need to post somewhere...where are all the adults at? I like bikes of all kinds and look forward to meeting haters face to face....life is too short to waste time debating idiots online although they are very fun to meet one on one in person.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's of course all about reps. I got WAY better at descending back in the 90s when I picked up a 200 E/XC and started riding it a lot - because you get as much "bike" handling time/cornering/traction control/practice/etc in a day as you would in an entire season of riding a mountain bike. The climb/descend ratio on a normal ride is what, 75/25 at best?

I can imagine e-bikes would be similar, though to a smaller extent since unless you're pretty fit and trying hard, you're not getting air/braking into corners on the climbs. But you're still quicker than you would be, you're fresher for the descents, etc.

-Walt


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

My thoughts exactly all the ebike haters seem to monitor this Ebike forum constantly just too swoop down and attack every single post that is made it's sad really that they cant find any thing to make them happy in life so they need to attack other people online to feel better about themselves 

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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

My thoughts exactly all the ebike haters seem to monitor this Ebike forum constantly just too swoop down and attack every single post that is made it's sad really that they cant find any thing to make them happy in life so they need to attack other people online to feel better about themselves


Traditional50s said:


> Not sure why all the ebike haters hang out in the ebike forum. I had left mtbr forums due to all the hate. I was messaged for another thread I watched and popped in here....I suppose children need to post somewhere...where are all the adults at? I like bikes of all kinds and look forward to meeting haters face to face....life is too short to waste time debating idiots online although they are very fun to meet one on one in person.


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## FLYINW (Apr 26, 2016)

Speed Goat said:


> None of this makes sense to me.
> 
> In fact, I don't even know why I am here....


The don't let the door hit you on the way out.


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## FLYINW (Apr 26, 2016)

Walt said:


> It's of course all about reps. I got WAY better at descending back in the 90s when I picked up a 200 E/XC and started riding it a lot - because you get more "bike" handling time/cornering/traction control/practice/etc in a day as you would in an entire season of riding a mountain bike.
> 
> I can imagine e-bikes would be similar, though to a smaller extent since unless you're pretty fit and trying hard, you're not getting air/braking into corners on the climbs.
> 
> -Walt


I found the same thing after I started riding dirt bikes. It helped me read the trail better at higher speeds.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

Nice post Rich. I've found the same thing, but my "regular bike" time has dwindled to 0% in the 10 months I've had an eMTB. I'm just not interested in crawling up hills when I have a much better tool for the job in the garage.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

Traditional50s said:


> Not sure why all the ebike haters hang out in the ebike forum.


because they are sad, sad losers


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

For the record, it's tough climbing in TX summer heat, in the TX hill country.

If E-Bikes became legal to ride on public trails here locally, and someone made a retrofit kit for my existing bike or someone sold a low power one that weighed 36# or .under, I'd utilize one in the summer months for sure. 

Of course I'd also park in the handicap spaces if it were legal to do so for the exact same reasons.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

craigsj said:


> it's not what you want to see for e-bike advocacy.


Does every post have to be for ebike advocacy? OP posted saying some benefits they noticed. Simply having more time in the saddle could be a huge benefit


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Walt said:


> It's of course all about reps. I got WAY better at descending back in the 90s when I picked up a 200 E/XC and started riding it a lot - because you get as much "bike" handling time/cornering/traction control/practice/etc in a day as you would in an entire season of riding a mountain bike. The climb/descend ratio on a normal ride is what, 75/25 at best?
> 
> I can imagine e-bikes would be similar, though to a smaller extent since unless you're pretty fit and trying hard, you're not getting air/braking into corners on the climbs. But you're still quicker than you would be, you're fresher for the descents, etc.
> 
> -Walt


The skills that I learned riding my old DR350S that best transferred to mountain biking were learning to weight the front wheel turning in to corners and counter-steering.

i haven't learned anything yet from riding my eBike; it simply compensates for age-related joint deterioration; I bought full suspension simply for shock isolation when commuting and started trail riding again when many local trails opened for eBikes.

Retrospecting all the hours I spent grinding up dirt roads to descend on singletrack I wonder what it would have been like to have an eBike 30 years ago; probably I'd be a lot better rider just from having more time on the descents; the biggest thing I notice riding my eBike is that much less of my riding time is spent grinding up hills - it really flattens out the uphill riding.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I guess it depends on your perspective, I can see how an ebike could potentially improve downhill skills by letting you get more runs in but they could also aid in decreasing overall fitness and climbing skills. I've always considered climbing part of mountain biking and something to be embraced, not disdained.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I guess it depends on your perspective, I can see how an ebike could potentially improve downhill skills by letting you get more runs in but they could also aid in decreasing overall fitness and climbing skills. *I've always considered climbing part of mountain biking and something to be embraced, not disdained.*


QFT....

great way to look at it


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I guess it depends on your perspective, I can see how an ebike could potentially improve downhill skills by letting you get more runs in but they could also aid in decreasing overall fitness and climbing skills. I've always considered climbing part of mountain biking and something to be embraced, not disdained.


Barf - I hate climbing it is nothing but a necessary evil. Anything that makes climbing easier I am all for, currently that would be a 26 x 50 tooth setup on my bike.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Are you having more fun? Then you are, indeed, better than before.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Barf - I hate climbing it is nothing but a necessary evil.


Makes for strong legs and strong lungs, which makes the whole experience more enjoyable. Embrace the pain!


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've always considered climbing part of mountain biking and something to be embraced, not disdained.


Chair lifts and gas powered motor vehicles have been used to avoid climbing for almost the entire history of the sport. Like.. since Repack...



> Many would load their bikes into the back of waiting trucks for a lift up a paved road to the 1000-foot level. From there they road their bikes on dirt the last 2 miles, climbing the remaining 500 feet.
> 
> https://mmbhof.org/mtn-bike-hall-of-fame/history/repack-history/


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

frantik! said:


> Chair lifts and gas powered motor vehicles have been used to avoid climbing for almost the entire history of the sport. Like.. since Repack...


Thanks for stating the


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

frantik! said:


> Chair lifts and gas powered motor vehicles have been used to avoid climbing for almost the entire history of the sport. Like.. since Repack...


That's why I wss careful to use the word "I" and not "we".


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

yep, I thought it would be obvious but you go so many people who get straight up offended by using an ebike but ignore any other means of "cheating" to get themselves to a trail


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's why I wss careful to use the word "I" and not "we".


Sure, but do you got in the downhill forum expressing your views on climbing too? I don't go in that forum but somehow I doubt you see the volume of posts talking about cheating and concerns about fitness when using shuttles or lifts.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

and how about people who drive to trails? they are just cheaters! ride your bike to the trail!!

and those people who take those fangled aeroplanes to get places, losers!

why sail when you can swim? feel the burn!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

frantik! said:


> Sure, but do you got in the downhill forum expressing your views on climbing too?


Wait, this is the downhill forum? 

A point was posed "how an e-bike is making me a better _*overall*_ rider"

I gave an _opinion_, this is an opinion forum. I didn't denigrate anyone, or accuse anyone of cheating.


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> I didn't denigrate anyone, or accuse anyone of cheating.


You did express your concerns about fitness, and you even got people jumping in with memes showing some fat guy. Seems like people are really worried about fitness, but only when it comes to ebikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

frantik! said:


> You did express your concerns about fitness, and you even got people jumping in with memes showing some fat guy. Seems like people are really worried about fitness, but only when it comes to ebikes.


You're reading more into my post than I wrote.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

frantik! said:


> Sure, but do you got in the downhill forum expressing your views on climbing too? I don't go in that forum but somehow I doubt you see the volume of posts talking about cheating and concerns about fitness when using shuttles or lifts.


How do you manage to pilot your electric motor bicycle in a straight line with that enormous chip on your shoulder?


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## frantik! (Sep 10, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> You're reading more into my post than I wrote.


It's not just your post, it's a large number of folks coming into the ebike forum who clearly are not ebike users or have any interest in ebikes except to express their opinion about why they don't like them, or why they think they are better for not using them. You do seem more reasonable than some of the others. I hope you can see how especially in concert with a bunch of other chuckleheads, it can get tiresome quick to see the same old things said. Especially in a thread in the ebike forum where someone is trying to talk about the benefits they are noticing! Some people (not you) seem to refuse to accept they might have any benefits at all


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

frantik! said:


> It's not just your post, it's a large number of folks coming into the ebike forum who clearly are not ebike users or have any interest in ebikes


NEWSFLASH:

-Folks don't have to use an electric motor bicycle in order to post in this forum.

-Not using an electric motor bicycle does not preclude someone from having an interest in them since the access issues around motorized vehicles is of interest to many folks who ride normal bikes.

But don't let those facts dissuade you from continuing to make sweeping generalizations based upon your insecurities and the attendant assumptions.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

KenPsz said:


> Barf - I hate climbing it is nothing but a necessary evil. Anything that makes climbing easier I am all for, currently that would be a 26 x 50 tooth setup on my bike.


Seriously, buy a dirt bike. All the jumps, berms, etc, none of the pesky pedaling. 
I do both and there is nothing wrong with that, but it's dumb to ride a mtb if you hate climbing when that's 75% of your time on the thing. 
All you are doing is bringing a low powered motorcycle on to the trails with an E-bike so you are half way there anyways. 
Bonus! Dirt bikes are both cheaper and go further than E- bikes.

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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Only trolls refer to e-bikes as "motorized vehicles" in an e-bike forum. Your next contribution to an e-bike discussion will be your first. Don't pretend you're here for any reason other than trolling.


Nah, you're wrong, again. On many fronts.

I'm just being factual. See all of those motors on those bicycles? Many land managers sure do, hence the motorized vehicle designation.



craigsj said:


> Look who's talking! Do you have anything to offer other than "attendant assumptions" and "sweeping generalizations" due to your own insecurities? What about e-bikes threatens you so much that you can't even refer to them without using a snide, disrespectful term?


You're confusing "being threatened" with being really amused by the knots that some folks tie themselves into when discussing where they can/can't ride their electric motor bicycles and why. And why their electric motorized bicycle isn't a motor vehicle. The hypocrisy of some only adds to the amusement.

Those pretzeled folks are almost as funny as the OP and his wacky claims about how his front wheel drive franken-electric motor bicycle has made him a better all around rider. Almost.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Another e-bike troll. Where are the moderators?


Somebody really needs to get this delicate flower to a safe space. STAT!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"wacky claims about how his front wheel drive franken-electric motor bicycle has made him a better all around rider. "









Yup, went all the way around that mountain just fine. Logging roads ho! It's franken but fun.

That bike has been to the top of Reno Divide, Paradise Divide and Hartman's and was a great way for this sea level dweller to acclimate for riding his dingle speed over Pearl for the 40th a few years ago.









I am already a good, enough for me at least, all around rider but the key for me was the easier take on the climbs and mileage that got me more in rhythm with my breath control/heart rate at altitude that transferred over to my push bike up to 12k.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigwheel said:


> "wacky claims about how his front wheel drive franken-electric motor bicycle has made him a better all around rider. "
> 
> Yup, went all the way around that mountain just fine. Logging roads ho! It's franken but fun.
> 
> I am already a good, enough for me at least, all around rider but the key for me was the easier take on the climbs and mileage that got me more in rhythm with my breath control/heart rate at altitude that transferred over to my push bike up to 12k.


If you're a good enough all around rider then you didn't "learn by necessity to do a hybrid of crouching over the bars and front tire (the crawl) and standing up, where I mostly stand up but am leaning over the front tire at the same time," did you?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> You're confusing "being threatened" with being really amused by the knots that some folks tie themselves into when discussing where they can/can't ride their electric motor bicycles and why. And why their electric motorized bicycle isn't a motor vehicle. The hypocrisy of some only adds to the amusement.
> 
> Those pretzeled folks are almost as funny as the OP and his wacky claims about how his front wheel drive franken-electric motor bicycle has made him a better all around rider. Almost.


og-mtb my friend, why are you such an unhappy person? What you wrote here is a definition of a troll. You're always quick to name calling and you like demean people often.

If this is what you find fun, putting people down, then this just plain sad. Seriously my friend, put down the keyboard and go out for a ride. Maybe try staying out of the ebike forum.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> og-mtb my friend, why are you such an unhappy person? .


"3. Projection is a form of defense in which unwanted feelings are displaced onto another person, where they then appear as a threat from the external world. A common form of projection occurs when an individual, threatened by his own angry feelings, accuses another of harbouring hostile thoughts."


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Seriously, buy a dirt bike. All the jumps, berms, etc, none of the pesky pedaling.
> I do both and there is nothing wrong with that, but it's dumb to ride a mtb if you hate climbing when that's 75% of your time on the thing.
> All you are doing is bringing a low powered motorcycle on to the trails with an E-bike so you are half way there anyways.
> Bonus! Dirt bikes are both cheaper and go further than E- bikes.
> ...


I don't want a noisy, smell, loud dirt bike been there done that when I was a kid. Yes we all know folks like you want to keep mtbr "pure", yet other parts of the world seem to not have this problem you do.

75% of my riding time is not climbing where I am it is around 40%. See not everyone rides in CA

I enjoy mtbr considering I have been doing it since 1995 and that whole time I have never liked climbing.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Makes for strong legs and strong lungs, which makes the whole experience more enjoyable. Embrace the pain!


Sorry I don't buy into that idea, I have heard that same nonsense since 1995.

Those that like to climb are like roadies people that seem to enjoy the suck, I never have understood that mentality. I ride for fun not for suckage.

I get the idea of accomplishment from getting over a difficult climb but I never enjoy it. Like I said climbing is a necessary evil and anything that makes it easier I am all for.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Seriously, buy a dirt bike. All the jumps, berms, etc, none of the pesky pedaling.
> I do both and there is nothing wrong with that, but it's dumb to ride a mtb if you hate climbing when that's 75% of your time on the thing.
> All you are doing is bringing a low powered motorcycle on to the trails with an E-bike so you are half way there anyways.
> Bonus! Dirt bikes are both cheaper and go further than E- bikes.
> ...


Whether it's dumb depends on your outlook. Take a four hour ride with three hours of climbing on an eBike at 100 percent assist and turn it into a two and a half hour ride with one and a half hours of climbing with the same effort. Still a decent workout but that ride can now be done after work.

Of course anyone considering buying an high-dollar eBike should consider the alternatives; I bought my eBike at a considerable discount so the cost was about half of the Honda Crf250l Rally I would have otherwise bought. I'm a big fan of dual-sport motorcycles after having put many miles on a DR350S but I like bicycling better.

If the choice was between an S-Works levo and a Honda Crf450l I'd pick the Honda and have a ton of money left over; I really don't understand high-end eBikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KenPsz said:


> Sorry I don't buy into that idea, I have heard that same nonsense since 1995.


That's ok because I'm not trying to sell anyone, like I said it's just my opinion.

For me though mountain biking is just more fun when I'm more fit, downhills included. A side benefit is that every other part of my life is better when my fitness is good.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's ok because I'm not trying to sell anyone, like I said it's just my opinion.
> 
> For me though mountain biking is just more fun when I'm more fit, downhills included. A side benefit is that every other part of my life is better when my fitness is good.


Oh I know it your opinion and I have no problems with it. Like I have said before I have meet people that love to climb I don't understand it.

I accept I have to climb which is why I have a bike geared like a monster truck to just get up those damn hills to get to the good parts. In the future I hope to afford a little electric assistance since that would make my riding nicer, funnier and more often as I get on in age.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

craigsj said:


> I see many things on "those bicycles" but I, and you, don't choose to refer to them by those other things that are attached. Land managers don't care and that's not the reason for the "motorized vehicle designation", which, BTW doesn't exist anywhere except for *one specific organization*, an organization who falls back on uncorrected terminology that predates e-bikes. Virtually everywhere else, e-bikes are specifically identified as NOT "motorized vehicles" as people understood the distinction and took proactive steps to fix the problems with the law...except in the case of the forestry service.


More confusion on your part. Not only does the USFS consider electric motor bicycles to be motorized vehicles, so does the BLM. As do various state entities.









In addition, many local land managers, in addition to Federal and State entities, care about bicycles with motors attached and ban them from their trails.









Just the facts.



craigsj said:


> Of course, you know all this. Your post, just like all your e-bike posts, is merely a troll, a collection of consistent lies to invoke outrage.


Just because you're unfamiliar with the facts, it does not follow that those facts are lies.



craigsj said:


> This is, without a doubt, the most common troll tactic in the forum and one that moderators have said will not be tolerated, yet for some reason they don't fix the og-mtb problem. Moderators...here it is again.


Here's your troll whine again. Sad.

Someone really needs to get you to a safe place where you won't have to deal with facts that cause you continued distress.


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