# Why meat and dairy is the recipie to great performance and a long life!!



## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I thought all the meat eaters could chime in here and we could bash them for a change! Ha ha!


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

I like a good steak. Bash away..


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Life without bacon is just not worth living. 

nuff said


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Life without bacon is just not worth living.
> 
> nuff said


Processed Meats Declared Too Dangerous for Human Consumption | Natural Healing - Natural Health Breakthroughs from Across the Globe


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

No need to bash meat eaters, just gloat in the probability of out living them.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> Processed Meats Declared Too Dangerous for Human Consumption | Natural Healing - Natural Health Breakthroughs from Across the Globe


Do you have a point?

I still stand behind my original statement of life without bacon isn't worth living.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Do you have a point?
> 
> I still stand behind my original statement of life without bacon isn't worth living.


Ya, this thread was done with tongue in cheek. Kind of a response to meat eaters bashing vegetarians or vegans. Eat all the bacon you want if that is what floats your boat (or your coffin)


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## MadBlackHatter (Mar 26, 2012)

Vegetarian is just an old Indian word for bad hunter. But seriously what is the stance on wild game with no preservatives in it? If preservatives are the reason you don't eat meat would you be willing to eat moose, bear, etc?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> Ya, this thread was done with tongue in cheek.


duh! What do you think my response is done with?

And my coffin will float on happiness and clouds of bacon.



MadBlackHatter said:


> Vegetarian is just an old Indian word for bad hunter. But seriously what is the stance on wild game with no preservatives in it? If preservatives are the reason you don't eat meat would you be willing to eat moose, bear, etc?


It depends on who you ask.

Ask the ones who are against killing animals and it is all bad.

Ask the ones who do it for diet and you will get varying answers.

However, you can buy plenty of no hormone, no antibiotics, no preservatives meat in the grocery store.


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## MadBlackHatter (Mar 26, 2012)

Ya that's the usual answers. I'm with you on life with out bacon though:thumbsup:.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

MadBlackHatter said:


> Ya that's the usual answers. I'm with you on life with out bacon though:thumbsup:.


No kidding, I feel sorry for all those who deprive themselves of the yummy tasty goodness bacon.

I don't know what would be worse, having eaten it and now denying yourself of the delicious delicacy or never to have known the extreme pleasure of having the awesomely savory succulent treat passing your lips?


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

I was a vegetarian for almost 7 years. I switched back to omnivorous diet about 10 years ago. Weight fluctuates quite a bit and I haven't had the chance to work out nearly as much as I would like. I began ketogenic diet a few weeks ago. Lots of bacon, milk, eggs , cheese etc. I lost 15 lbs and 5 percent body fat since then. 2 pants sizes. No BS. I feel better and have consistent energy. So based on that I would say that meat and dairy are not a problem


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

I have noticed a lot of information battling when it comes to diets. 
Vegan, vegetarian, paleo, low carb, no carb, ketogenic, etc etc etc. 
Some diets seem to work for some and not fr others.

1) Could it be that the proper diet depends on the individual? 
2) Could it be that the proper diet also depends on goals and type of sport?

After all, have you ever known a vegan sumo wrestler? 
Ok, maybe bad example since this is a cycling forum. lol

But seriously, the reason there is so much controversy in diets is not everyone's bodies are made up the same way. Not to mention all of our goals are not the same. 

Some of us just enjoy eating meat and drinking beer but want to go through life without being fat. 

BTW, I have several customers of mine that are knocking on the door of 100 years of age and I would say over 90% of my customers are seniors (I work in a high retirement community) and I don't know of any of them that are vegetarians let alone vegans. 
My oldest is 98 years old and no signs of dying before 100 and is still on the golf course 2-3 times a week, cuts his rather large yard himself and is fairly active regularly. I know he eats meat and still drinks beer.....could it be that lifestyle and not just diet has more to do with a long healthy life?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> I have noticed a lot of information battling when it comes to diets.
> Vegan, vegetarian, paleo, low carb, no carb, ketogenic, etc etc etc.
> Some diets seem to work for some and not fr others.
> 
> ...


I totally get it now. We have several horses and everyone of them has a different diet. Some of the deer on our property are even carnivores! But they all seem to be thriving!
Still if you do the research the longest lived cultures and people eat a predominately plant based diet. 
You can find examples of people who have trashed their bodies, by poor diet, smoking, drinking etc and have had fairly long lives, BUT chances are they would have lived 10 to 20 years longer with fewer problems if they would have taken care of themselves.
My mom turned 95 and is dong amazingly well. Two of my sisters and myself have had cancer. Food and the environment has changed and I fear not for the better.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> I totally get it now. We have several horses and everyone of them has a different diet. Some of the deer on our property are even carnivores! But they all seem to be thriving!


What is your point? 
I have had plenty of snakes throughout the years all of which ate completely carnivores diets. The deer on my property are not carnivores like your (that is actually kind of scary) but the bear are omnivores and all seem to be happy.

So are you seriously comparing the diets of animals that are designed to eat only plant based diets to humans that are designed to eat an omnivores diet?

No matter, if I die sooner, I will die happy and hopefully it will be with a strip of bacon in one hand and a beer in the other.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> What is your point?
> I have had plenty of snakes throughout the years all of which ate completely carnivores diets. The deer on my property are not carnivores like your (that is actually kind of scary) but the bear are omnivores and all seem to be happy.
> 
> So are you seriously comparing the diets of animals that are designed to eat only plant based diets to humans that are designed to eat an omnivores diet?
> ...


I always like when people ask "what is your point??" The point was there in black and white. If I had no point then how could you even respond??
More food for thought: http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> I always like when people ask "what is your point??" The point was there in black and white. If I had no point then how could you even respond??
> More food for thought: http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html


No, it wasn't in black and white.

All you did was throw up giant straw man comparing humans to horses and deer which is just ridiculous.

So why don't we compare them to carnivorous animals? 
Here are a few lean ones 
Lions, cheetahs, jaguars and leopards.

And how about a honey badger because like me, he doesn't give a fvck.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> No, it wasn't in black and white.
> 
> All you did was throw up giant straw man comparing humans to horses and deer which is just ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Bacon making you grumpy?? I suggest you read the China Study.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Yes, bacon makes me very grumpy.....when I don't get it.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Yes, bacon makes me very grumpy.....when I don't get it.


Ha ha!


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

kjlued said:


> I have noticed a lot of information battling when it comes to diets.
> Vegan, vegetarian, paleo, low carb, no carb, ketogenic, etc etc etc.
> Some diets seem to work for some and not fr others.
> 
> ...


Ding ding ding!!!
We have a winner!

One of the biggest reasons I entered the Health Coaching program I'm in is the focus on bio-individuality. No one diet can work for everyone.
That being said, I think most of us on this forum would agree that the typical modern American diet is not helping us as a whole. Far too much poor quality meats and highly processed, chemical- and sugar-laden foods.

We've switched to a predominantly vegetable-based diet, but pure vegan or vegetarian hasn't worked for either of us. We're very careful about what meat we eat, and it's definitely more of a "side dish" for us now.

Interesting discovery- Ayurvedic doctors (practitioners of traditional, pre-Hindu Indian medicine,) will often write prescriptions for red meat for certain illnesses related to vitamin and protein deficiencies. Neither here nor there as it doesn't really pertain to most of our circumstances. I just found it interesting.

Los


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

sslos said:


> Ding ding ding!!!
> We have a winner!
> 
> One of the biggest reasons I entered the Health Coaching program I'm in is the focus on bio-individuality. No one diet can work for everyone.
> ...


Certainly cutting down on meat (particularly lot raised meat) is good. Most people get way too much protein. In fact drinking too much milk strips the body of calcium, the very thing people drink milk for. Watch "forks over knives" for a more detailed description of how this works.

Our present western diet is making us sick and fat and causing health care costs to go through the roof. I just wonder what the life expectancy of our children will be??


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

richwolf said:


> Certainly cutting down on meat (particularly lot raised meat) is good. Most people get way too much protein. In fact drinking too much milk strips the body of calcium, the very thing people drink milk for. Watch "forks over knives" for a more detailed description of how this works.
> 
> Our present western diet is making us sick and fat and causing health care costs to go through the roof. I just wonder what the life expectancy of our children will be??


There's soooooo much wrong with the milk most people drink! 
"Forks Over Knives" is good, I enjoyed "Food, Inc," and "Food Matters" as well.

Los


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

Dirty $anchez said:


> No need to bash meat eaters, just gloat in the probability of out living them.


Please do. The jokes on you. This world is going to **** and you will be stuck in it longer than I will......


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

richwolf said:


> In fact drinking too much milk strips the body of calcium, the very thing people drink milk for. Watch "forks over knives" for a more detailed description of how this works.


Actually that's total ********.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

syl3 said:


> Actually that's total ********.


Another well presented counterpoint! Ha ha!

An interesting link: Harvard School of Public Health » The Nutrition Source » Calcium and Milk: What's Best for Your Bones and Health?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

sslos said:


> Ding ding ding!!!
> We have a winner!
> 
> One of the biggest reasons I entered the Health Coaching program I'm in is the focus on bio-individuality. No one diet can work for everyone.
> ...


Oh, no doubt. 
Most red meat is riddled with added hormones, antibiotics, etc. and nobody wants to spend twice as much for the grass fed hormone free and antibiotic free beef. What is more important than not eating meat is where you get it from and the cuts you get.

Bacon of course is the exception because if you eat enough you will become immortal.

Of course, I am sure many of these vegetarians and vegans are in for a rude awakening when they realize how much pesticides are on their produce if they are not buying organic. Guess what, crop dusters used to dump chlordane over they fields and that stuff does not go away......ever.


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Oh, no doubt.
> Most red meat is riddled with added hormones, antibiotics, etc. and nobody wants to spend twice as much for the grass fed hormone free and antibiotic free beef. What is more important than not eating meat is where you get it from and the cuts you get.
> 
> Bacon of course is the exception because if you eat enough you will become immortal.
> ...


We're very fortunate here in Boise to have several beef and bison ranches nearby that raise 100% grass-fed meats. They're good people, too. It's nice to be able to have extended conversations with the providers!

Los


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## durianrider (Mar 16, 2009)

MadBlackHatter said:


> Vegetarian is just an old Indian word for bad hunter. But seriously what is the stance on wild game with no preservatives in it? If preservatives are the reason you don't eat meat would you be willing to eat moose, bear, etc?


What about excess cholesterol, endotoxins, parasitic infestations, pathogenic bacteria, heavy metal poisoning etc?

ALL animal products are full of these dangerous factors. Even organic animals are not immune. They still have naturally occurring hormones, endotoxins etc.

Eating wild animals cos they are 'healthier' is like smoking roll up tabacco vs normal cigarettes cos its 'healthier'.


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## durianrider (Mar 16, 2009)

All i know is that I top most of the Strava leaderboards in my city of Adelaide Australia and we literally produce more top level riders from all styles than any other city in on EARTH lol!

Ive been vegan for 12 years. Animal products just makes you sicker and fatter than you would be if you didnt consume em. Bit like a good rider can perform well on a 1998 xc bike BUT will perform even better on the latest technology.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Congratulations but most people here are not trying to top strava boards or could care less about topping them. I would say most people here cycle to have fun and/or be a little bit healthier so they can eat more bacon and drink more beer. 

Also, there are plenty of top athletes out there that eat meat.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

durianrider said:


> All i know is that I top most of the Strava leaderboards in my city of Adelaide Australia and we literally produce more top level riders from all styles than any other city in on EARTH lol!
> 
> Ive been vegan for 12 years. Animal products just makes you sicker and fatter than you would be if you didnt consume em. Bit like a good rider can perform well on a 1998 xc bike BUT will perform even better on the latest technology.


I'm not even sure how to respond to such an absurd statement.


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## CGrr (Aug 30, 2010)

MadBlackHatter said:


> Vegetarian is just an old Indian word for bad hunter.


Ha!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

[SUB]"In his book, "Diet for a Poisoned Planet", David Steinman reports that of all the toxic chemicals found in food, 95 to 99 percent come from meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. He also reveals that many of the tests performed don't even detect many chemicals and pesticides. The Food and Drug Administration's own Total Diet Study found that bacon had 48 different pesticide residues, bologna and other luncheon meats had 102 different industrial pollutants and pesticides, fast food hamburgers had 113 residues, hot dogs had 123, and ground beef had 82 industrial chemical and pesticide residues, just to name a few.

In comparison, meat contains 14 times more pesticides than plant foods, and dairy has 5 times more pesticides than plant foods. The United States alone uses ONE BILLION POUNDS of pesticides every year on our food. That, our pathetic contamination sampling process, and our use of growth hormones has caused the European Economic Community to reject our meat exportations on numerous occasions."[/SUB]

The problem with meat and dairy are the multiplier effect that it has on toxins. That is why higher level carnivores and fish have so many toxins in their flesh. Better to eat sprayed plants than meat. The toxins in mothers milk is so much greater for those who eat meat and dairy vs. those that don't.

As far as our Strava friend is concerned he is just illustrating that you can perform at a high level not eating meat.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

If you want to make sure you have colon and prostate problems you should eat a lot of meat. 100,000 new cases of colon cancer are expected in America this year, causing about 50,000 deaths. With 2/3 of men having prostate cancer by the time they are in their sixties, there will be about 240,000 new cases of prostate cancer in America this year, causing about 30,000 deaths.

Oh, and cholesterol only comes from animal products. How many people have high cholesterol issues? 100 million Americans have high blood pressure, high cholesterol or both. High blood pressure and high cholesterol are two of the major risk factors for heart attacks, strokes and other cardiovascular diseases, which are the leading cause of death in the United States, killing 800,000 people every year.

There is a lot of talk on here about the availability of organic meat. It's meat, it doesn't matter. Our bodies don't do well with it in any form.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

richwolf said:


> The problem with meat and dairy are the multiplier effect that it has on toxins. That is why higher level carnivores and fish have so many toxins in their flesh. Better to eat sprayed plants than meat. The toxins in mothers milk is so much greater for those who eat meat and dairy vs. those that don't.
> 
> As far as our Strava friend is concerned he is just illustrating that you can perform at a high level not eating meat.


So how do the herbivores end up with so many toxins in their meat if they are only eating the plants that have fewer toxins?
And I'm pretty sure our Strava friend here was trying to imply that he performed at a higher level specfically because he doesn't eat mat.

Really though, I would rather die of a stroke at the age of 63, with high cholestorol, high blood pressure, and diabetes, than be stuck around for another 20+ years beyond that watching my body slowly decay away to the point I can't even get myself to the bathroom on time or even remember where it is.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

joshh said:


> Really though, I would rather die of a stroke at the age of 63, with high cholestorol, high blood pressure, and diabetes, than be stuck around for another 20+ years beyond that watching my body slowly decay away to the point I can't even get myself to the bathroom on time or even remember where it is.


Might be great if you just died but most of the time it means a lower standard of life with the "need" of a lot of medications and medical costs. Most of the health care costs in America could be eliminated by healthier living. As far as living another twenty years, have you ever ridden with a healthy seventy-year old? One of my riding buddies is closing in on eighty. I'd bet he'd ride most guys into the ground on a road bike. I just watched a video of him on motorcycle track passing all but two guys at speeds of well over 100 mph. Being healthy means you don't have to stop living when you get older or haul around an oxygen tank and a bag full of medications.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> If you want to make sure you have colon and prostate problems you should eat a lot of meat. 100,000 new cases of colon cancer are expected in America this year, causing about 50,000 deaths. With 2/3 of men having prostate cancer by the time they are in their sixties, there will be about 240,000 new cases of prostate cancer in America this year, causing about 30,000 deaths.
> 
> Oh, and cholesterol only comes from animal products. How many people have high cholesterol issues? 100 million Americans have high blood pressure, high cholesterol or both. High blood pressure and high cholesterol are two of the major risk factors for heart attacks, strokes and other cardiovascular diseases, which are the leading cause of death in the United States, killing 800,000 people every year.
> 
> There is a lot of talk on here about the availability of organic meat. It's meat, it doesn't matter. Our bodies don't do well with it in any form.


Scare tactics, lol

I have an appoint in a week or two with my 98 year old customer who still goes out to the golf course 2-3 times a week. I will be sure to tell him to stop eating meat because it isn't good for him.

BTW, how many of todays 100+ year old people do you think lived a vegan lifestyle? 
I would venture that the majority of them have no idea what a vegan is.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

There are exceptions to every rule but clearly they are the exceptions. Also, many of them might not be vegetarians but it is likely that they do enough of the good things to allow them to live to those ages.

All I did was quote facts. By the way, there aren't a large percentage of people to live to over 100 in America but there are cultures that are vegetarian that see 100 regularly. In America, only 0.0173% of Americans live to 100.

To say that people can live through a car crash where one rolls his vehicle a dozen times because you know someone who has is kind of a stupid rule to try to live by.

Scare tactics? It is scary when this country spends billions of dollars every year trying to treat heart disease and high blood pressure.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> There are exceptions to every rule but clearly they are the exceptions. Also, many of them might not be vegetarians but it is likely that they do enough of the good things to allow them to live to those ages.
> 
> All I did was quote facts. By the way, there aren't a large percentage of people to live to over 100 in America but there are cultures that are vegetarian that see 100 regularly. In America, only 0.0173% of Americans live to 100.
> 
> ...


I'm curious. What cultures are vegetarian?


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

According to Psychology Today, roughly 75% of vegetarians eventually return to eating meat with 9 years being the average length of time of abstinence. Really?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

There are cultures that have been primarily plant based as there are many that have been primarily meat based. 

Of course there is always "the exception"....like maybe the Inuits who eat very little to no fruits in vegetable and have a very high meat and fat diet yet somehow had little to no diseases of modern man.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Actually, the Inuits have a fairly short life span. 

The difference between the primarily plant based diet cultures and the meat based cultures is that the plant based cultures live active lives for decades longer.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Actually, the Inuits have a fairly short life span.
> 
> The difference between the primarily plant based diet cultures and the meat based cultures is that the plant based cultures live active lives for decades longer.


Again. What vegetarian cultures are you referring too?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Man, it doesn't matter which vegetarian culture you look at. They all live longer than Americans, with fewer health issues. Try Ikaria, Nicoya, Okinawa, and many others that have high concentrations of active men over the age of 100. This isn't new information, it is just hidden beneath a bunch of social pressure and advertising that says we need beef, or chicken, or "the other white meat".


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

The Seventh-Day Adventists here in America live on average almost a decade longer than the rest of Americans. The Adventists encourage healthy living and many are vegetarians.

The problem with the OP's suggested topic, "Why meat and dairy is the recipie to great performance and a long life!" is that it isn't supported by the facts. The exact opposite is true unless you ask the National Dairy Counsel or someone in the beef industry.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Wow! Okinawans are vegetarians? Spent a lot of time there? Just because you say something, it doesn't make it true. 
While I agree that a plant based diet is healthy, it's not for everyone. My father will be 92 this July. Ate the SAD diet. There are more variables to longevity then diet alone.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Okinawans do eat a largely plant based diet as a whole. If you spent time there, how much beef do they eat?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> Actually, the Inuits have a fairly short life span.


ORLY?

Whole Health Source: Mortality and Lifespan of the Inuit

Also, is it possible that any "young" deaths have more to do with dangerous life style and lack of western medicine?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Z4good said:


> Wow! Okinawans are vegetarians? Spent a lot of time there? Just because you say something, it doesn't make it true.
> While I agree that a plant based diet is healthy, it's not for everyone. My father will be 92 this July. Ate the SAD diet. There are more variables to longevity then diet alone.


Yup


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

It is simple

Let's say that if I switched to a vegan diet I will live 10 years longer. 
All that means is that I will have 10 years more added to my life of wishing I could eat the savory yummy tasty goodness of bacon.


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

Pros and cons of eating meat/being a vegan aside, can someone explain the Inuit Paradox? It's truly intriguing.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

dirt farmer said:


> Pros and cons of eating meat/being a vegan aside, can someone explain the Inuit Paradox? It's truly intriguing.


Inuit were not a long lived culture. They ate meat and a lot of it because it was pretty much all that was available. If an average life span of 45 years is good to you then be my guest.
People spend more time taking care of their homes, cars and bikes while they neglect their bodies.
We have a huge choice of food now so we are not limited to a small range of food. Unfortunately a lot of the choices are terrible (tasty but terrible!)


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Although Inuits may have a shorter average lifespan, it's likely due to a variety of factors, not necessarily diet. However, either way you look at it, the main argument against meat has been that all meat is bad and if you eat meat you will die of a heart attack or cancer. Of which the Inuits do not have a problem with. 

Members in my family have lived in their late 80's and early 90's and some in their 100's. 
None of which have suffered from heart disease or cancer. Also none of which ever lived remotely what is close to a vegetarian diet and only enough to boot they were not exercise junkies either. My over 90 year old grandmother still even drives herself around. 

In all honesty, I don't care if I live to be 80, 90, or 100. 
In fact if I die at 40 (which comes this year) I will die happy and that is all I ask for. 
Life without meat is not happy so why would I stop eating meat? 
Better to live a short happy life than a long miserable existence.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Might be great if you just died but most of the time it means a lower standard of life with the "need" of a lot of medications and medical costs. Most of the health care costs in America could be eliminated by healthier living. As far as living another twenty years, have you ever ridden with a healthy seventy-year old? One of my riding buddies is closing in on eighty. I'd bet he'd ride most guys into the ground on a road bike. I just watched a video of him on motorcycle track passing all but two guys at speeds of well over 100 mph. Being healthy means you don't have to stop living when you get older or haul around an oxygen tank and a bag full of medications.


I have a family history of diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholestorol, and heart problems before the age of 55. My dad had 2 strokes by the time he was 60. Almost every visit to the doctor over the last 15 years, I have been told that my blood pressure is higher then what it should be. What exactly is a strictly vegeterian/vegan diet gonna do, help me live with diabetes longer? I live a healthier life than my dad, but genetics goes a long ways. So many people want to live longer. Why, scared to die? What's wrong with going at 65 having lived a happy life, instead of living till 85 stressing over how to put off death as long as possible?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Although Inuits may have a shorter average lifespan, it's likely due to a variety of factors, not necessarily diet. However, either way you look at it, the main argument against meat has been that all meat is bad and if you eat meat you will die of a heart attack or cancer. Of which the Inuits do not have a problem with.
> 
> Members in my family have lived in their late 80's and early 90's and some in their 100's.
> None of which have suffered from heart disease or cancer. Also none of which ever lived remotely what is close to a vegetarian diet and only enough to boot they were not exercise junkies either. My over 90 year old grandmother still even drives herself around.
> ...


Well fish is better than beef and other meats. Also the Inuits had an active life which many Americans no longer have. Still not a long lived culture by any stretch of the imagination.
At 40 I was unaware of diet myself. Late 40's went vegetarian. Now 60 and I am paying a lot more attention to diet. Ride a lot more and I am in the best shape of my life. I no longer have goo hanging on me.
It is pretty obvious you are at a point in your life where you have made your diet decision and are happy with that. But the western diet is wreaking havoc with our health. The food supply has changed from GMO to feed lots and hormones. The major players in the game are not concerned with health but manipulating their products to get you hooked on them and or maximizing profits. Are children today, given their diet going to be as long lived as their parents and grandparents? I suspect not.
Changing one's diet is difficult. It is more about a lifestyle change and you have to be ready for it and committed. How many people buy a bike, get all jazzed about it and then after a while it just sits in the garage and gathers dust?? People are much better at making bad choices than good ones because it is easier and more pleasant initially. Every day I look around at people on the street and the numbers of overweight and out of shape people is astounding.


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

richwolf said:


> Well fish is better than beef and other meats. Also the Inuits had an active life which many Americans no longer have. Still not a long lived culture by any stretch of the imagination.
> At 40 I was unaware of diet myself. Late 40's went vegetarian. Now 60 and I am paying a lot more attention to diet. Ride a lot more and I am in the best shape of my life. I no longer have goo hanging on me.
> It is pretty obvious you are at a point in your life where you have made your diet decision and are happy with that. But the western diet is wreaking havoc with our health. The food supply has changed from GMO to feed lots and hormones. The major players in the game are not concerned with health but manipulating their products to get you hooked on them and or maximizing profits. Are children today, given their diet going to be as long lived as their parents and grandparents? I suspect not.
> Changing one's diet is difficult. It is more about a lifestyle change and you have to be ready for it and committed. How many people buy a bike, get all jazzed about it and then after a while it just sits in the garage and gathers dust?? People are much better at making bad choices than good ones because it is easier and more pleasant initially. Every day I look around at people on the street and the numbers of overweight and out of shape people is astounding.


You keep referencing the Inuit in the past tense, as if they're some sort of extinct species!

You do know the Inuit still exist in the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands in the Arctic circle, no?


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## dirt farmer (Mar 28, 2005)

Here, if anyone was wondering what the Inuit Paradox is, is a good, lengthy, if slightly older (2004) article.

The Inuit Paradox | DiscoverMagazine.com


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

dirt farmer said:


> You keep referencing the Inuit in the past tense, as if they're some sort of extinct species!
> 
> You do know the Inuit still exist in the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands in the Arctic circle, no?


Modern VS Traditional Life | Inuit Cultural Online Resource
Are the Inuit Healthy? : Disease Proof

They no longer live like they used to so that is why we speak in past tense.


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## Moonshine Willie (Oct 21, 2009)

Thank you for your sanity.



kjlued said:


> I have noticed a lot of information battling when it comes to diets.
> Vegan, vegetarian, paleo, low carb, no carb, ketogenic, etc etc etc.
> Some diets seem to work for some and not fr others.
> 
> ...


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## Moonshine Willie (Oct 21, 2009)

I think if people spent as much time obsessing about the health of the planet and what actions they could take to reduce human impacts, living longer would be a lot more meaningful.

Indifference to how well we take care of our terrarium is going to unleash a hurt locker of misery upon the vast majority of mankind within the next 40 years. Luck, much more so than diet, will play the biggest role in determining which 1-3 billion human beings remain here to help bury the dead and continue to propagate our species.

10 years from now, we'll be paying as much a gallon for water fit to drink as we do for gasoline. Meat will be a luxury for the most wealthy. Most of the rest of us will dine on peas with some insects thrown in there to augment our protein needs. And, yeah, breathing air that doesn't look like the current skyline in Beijing will be a luxury that we will enjoy about once every six months if the air currents are just right.

Welcome to the future.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Moonshine Willie, did you not pay attention in high school science, our earth is a closed system with the same amount of moisture at all times. It is nice that you have a crystal ball that tells you what the future will be like, but I'm thinking you have been watching too many end of the world type movies and listening to Al Gore.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

As far as the Inuit people, they are headed the way of the American Indian quickly.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> The food supply has changed from GMO to feed lots and hormones. The major players in the game are not concerned with health but manipulating their products to get you hooked on them and or maximizing profits. Are children today, given their diet going to be as long lived as their parents and grandparents? I suspect not.


Ok, I see the wheel is finally turning, now lets see if there is actually a hamster in that thing.

Earlier, according to you, no amount of meat is healthy. 
Now you seem to be coming to a logical conclusion that all the crap they put in food that does not belong there is what isn't healthy, not the food itself.

And I am sure our children (well, not mine since I don't have any crumb snatchers) will live long healthy lives longer than ours as people are becoming more and more educated on what is done to our food and buying stuff that is void of all the extra crap.

BTW, the Inuit diet is still mostly meat and current diseases they suffer from is believed to be brought from other cultures such as the Russians. Also life as an Inuit is dangerous which is also part of the reason the life expectancy is low.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

According to Psychology Today, roughly 75% of vegetarians eventually return to eating meat with 9 years being the average length of time of abstinence. 

Yes, the power of suggestion, advertising, and pressure from nearly everyone is great. I've been a vegetarian for about 25 years. It has nothing to do with being a poor hunter as some have suggested, I hunt every year very successfully.

"Could it be that the proper diet depends on the individual? 
2) Could it be that the proper diet also depends on goals and type of sport?
....could it be that lifestyle and not just diet has more to do with a long healthy life?"

You are right. If you want to be a sumo wrestler, eat like the kings of old.

Many on here are like my son. He wouldn't put anything but the best oil and fuel in his motorcycle, but he'll drink Red Bull and other sodas like they are water and then wonder why he's not feeling well.


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## Moonshine Willie (Oct 21, 2009)

alphazz said:


> Moonshine Willie, did you not pay attention in high school science, our earth is a closed system with the same amount of moisture at all times. It is nice that you have a crystal ball that tells you what the future will be like, but I'm thinking you have been watching too many end of the world type movies and listening to Al Gore.


Hi Alphazz. Yes, I did pay attention in high-school science class. I paid attention enough to get a Ph.D! Whoopie! 

I'm surprised that as a kid you never made a terrarium or some other closed-system habitat for your amusement, or watched the nonlinear growth and sudden extinction that goes on inside a petri dish. While a closed system does _conserve_ the original amount of energy and raw materials inside, you will notice that most often these raw materials get converted into new forms through chemical and physical changes. It's incredibly difficult to get even the best-engineered system to become sustainable. That's why over time we have watched certain species come and go here on Earth.

To address your point specifically about water, how is it that you think a burgeoning population of nearly 9 billion people (triple the population compared to just 15 years ago) is going to harvest enough potable water when the vast majority of the planet's water is too salty to drink and the rest of it is rapidly being crapped up with pollutants and contaminants created from mankind's unstoppable zest for life? I don't know the answer either; it's not an easy problem.

Do you realize that in the past 50 years, mankind has extracted as much coal as was extracted in the entire period of human history before that? Mankind in the past 50 years has extracted more energy products than during the entire previous span of human history. In the past five years, mankind has extracted more precious metals than had been extracted during the whole of human history before that. By anyone's imagination-even Al Gore's-such a path is clearly unsustainable.

What do you suppose is going to happen? That the scientists are suddenly going to have a eureka moment in which they are able to solve all of the world's environmental problems overnight? Or that Jesus is going to suddenly show up and pull a rabbit out of his hat that's going to make all the world's resources sustainable and all the people living in the world coexist in a harmonious manner?

Not likely.

Realistically, instead, our Savior will appear as some version of influenza or some bug we haven't even discovered yet, and it will lay waste to about 6 billion people over the course of one year. We'll all suddenly find common purpose and harmony in disposing of the dead. Or we will simply devolve into chaotic bands of desperate, violent neanderthals competing for scarce resources. Weak and strong, rich and poor, we'll all end up ripping one another to shreds for a sip of clean water and the last York peppermint patty.

Sometimes I laugh really hard at people who obsess about little things like whether meat or vegetables are the better option, or whether SRAM or Shimano is superior. We're so busy paying attention to our bikes, that we're not noticing the garage burning down around us.

Have a nice day. :thumbsup:


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## mbco1975 (Feb 28, 2012)

mmmmm bacon wrapped pork 
Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Board Express


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Moonshine Willie said:


> Hi Alphazz. Yes, I did pay attention in high-school science class. I paid attention enough to get a Ph.D! Whoopie!
> 
> I'm surprised that as a kid you never made a terrarium or some other closed-system habitat for your amusement, or watched the nonlinear growth and sudden extinction that goes on inside a petri dish. While a closed system does _conserve_ the original amount of energy and raw materials inside, you will notice that most often these raw materials get converted into new forms through chemical and physical changes. It's incredibly difficult to get even the best-engineered system to become sustainable. That's why over time we have watched certain species come and go here on Earth.
> 
> ...


Wow!!! You have seriously bummed me out. I guess the next logical question would be; what are we to do about this apocalyptic situation you have put forth?


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## Moonshine Willie (Oct 21, 2009)

Z4good said:


> Wow!!! You have seriously bummed me out. I guess the next logical question would be; what are we to do about this apocalyptic situation you have put forth?


Actually, Z4good, I'm not really sure. We may already be past the tipping point. If so, keep yourself as healthy as you can, hold your children tight, learn to become self sufficient, hope for the best....

If the tipping point hasn't been reached, a few things you can do are to, first and foremost, limit your progeny and encourage others to do so. Rage against plutocracy, corporatocracy and oligarchy. Vote _citizens_ into office, not corporate pawns (in other words, vote in representative who will look out for people's interests instead of corporate interests).

Buy local, eat food produced within 250 miles of your home, only eat foods that are in season in your hemisphere when they are in season in your hemisphere, grow a garden, raise chickens, live in a small house, to the extent possible, stop burning things. Refuse to buy imported goods. Get to know your neighbors, regain a sense of empathy and compassion for other human beings, smile at people, promote friendliness and eschew fear. Work cooperatively, not competitively.

End rampant consumerism and encourage others to do so, downsize, carpool, conserve water, wear a sweater inside in the winter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah-in other words, do all the things nobody wants to do.

Stop staring at your stupid cell phone and take a look around.

If you laugh at those things, then it's a certainty that we have passed the tipping point and that all of our futures rest solely in the hands of chance.

Good night and good luck.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

I know we've gotten off topic, but thanks, you've offered up some good suggestions, a lot of which I subscribe to.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Moonshine Willie said:


> Actually, Z4good, I'm not really sure. We may already be past the tipping point. If so, keep yourself as healthy as you can, hold your children tight, learn to become self sufficient, hope for the best....
> 
> If the tipping point hasn't been reached, a few things you can do are to, first and foremost, limit your progeny and encourage others to do so. Rage against plutocracy, corporatocracy and oligarchy. Vote _citizens_ into office, not corporate pawns (in other words, vote in representative who will look out for people's interests instead of corporate interests).
> 
> ...


The post of 2013. Yes, seriously.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Ok, I see the wheel is finally turning, now lets see if there is actually a hamster in that thing.
> 
> Earlier, according to you, no amount of meat is healthy.
> Now you seem to be coming to a logical conclusion that all the crap they put in food that does not belong there is what isn't healthy, not the food itself.
> ...


In my opinion meat is not healthy regardless of whether it is grass fed or lot fed.
I see more obese children all the time. Where is their food and diet education?
You can make all the excuses you want for the Inuit's short life span but eating a lot of flesh is not the optimum diet. Read the China Study.
I have done a ton of research on diet and long lived cultures. If my research would have come to the conclusion that dairy and flesh were healthy choices, then that is the way my diet would be going.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

richwolf said:


> In my opinion meat is not healthy regardless of whether it is grass fed or lot fed.
> I see more obese children all the time. Where is their food and diet education?
> You can make all the excuses you want for the Inuit's short life span but eating a lot of flesh is not the optimum diet. Read the China Study.
> I have done a ton of research on diet and long lived cultures. If my research would have come to the conclusion that dairy and flesh were healthy choices, then that is the way my diet would be going.


It is your OPINION that meat is not healthy. It is my OPNION that proper cuts of meat, in moderation are healthy. I too have done a ton of research on diet, and have come to a completely different conclusion. 
Children are not obese from eating too much meat. Children are obese from too much sugar, too much processed foods, too much grains, too little exercise. 
For every study you mention, I can find numerous rebuttals. 
If it works for you great. But you shouldn't assume that because one has chosen to eat meat, they are ill informed and must be converted. 
Besides, if we weren't meant to eat meat, "Why does it taste so darn good?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> It is your OPINION that meat is not healthy. It is my OPNION that proper cuts of meat, in moderation are healthy. I too have done a ton of research on diet, and have come to a completely different conclusion.
> Children are not obese from eating too much meat. Children are obese from too much sugar, too much processed foods, too much grains, too little exercise.
> For every study you mention, I can find numerous rebuttals.
> If it works for you great. But you shouldn't assume that because one has chosen to eat meat, they are ill informed and must be converted.
> Besides, if we weren't meant to eat meat, "Why does it taste so darn good?


Lots of things taste good that aren't good for you. People do a lot of things that they like that aren't good for them. They ingest cocaine, meth etc.
At least you have done your research which is more than what most people do.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

richwolf said:


> Lots of things taste good that aren't good for you. .
> 
> I know huh? As soon as I wrote that I thought about ice cream!!!!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> richwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of things taste good that aren't good for you. .
> ...


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Over in the vegan thread a common sub theme in the posts was omnivores were trying to hijack the thread.

Now in an omnivore thread the vegans are the ones attempting the hijacking. It is hypocrisy -- plain and simple.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

dave54 said:


> Over in the vegan thread a common sub theme in the posts was omnivores were trying to hijack the thread.
> 
> Now in an omnivore thread the vegans are the ones attempting the hijacking. It is hypocrisy -- plain and simple.


That is how we roll! Actually go to the first post and see the humor in it!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

dave54, I'll leave you to your vices.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Easter Dinner went out to eat with the family to a super nice brunch buffet. 
They had sausage, bacon, roast beef, lamb, honey ham, chicken, smoked salmon.....I couldn't decide what to get, so I got it all.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> That is how we roll! Actually go to the first post and see the humor in it!


Yeah, but vegans do attempt to hijack every meat omnivore thread and get unruly upset when an omnivore posts in their thread. You vegans are a testy little bunch. I think it is the lack of bacon. It turns you guys in to a bunch of pouty b!tches.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

kjlued said:


> Easter Dinner went out to eat with the family to a super nice brunch buffet.
> They had sausage, bacon, roast beef, lamb, honey ham, chicken, smoked salmon.....I couldn't decide what to get, so I got it all.


I hope you saved some room for pie and ice cream, and maybe a large latte at the end.

I'll eat light later, I've got in a strong 40 mile ride this morning and now I need to ride the fattie around town since it is a nice day.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Vegetarians take note: A study in the "Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition" concludes that cyclists who went meatless had to work harder (based on VO2 measurements) to achieve the same results during a cycling test then their carnivorous peers who got more protein. 
Round out a meat-free diet with plant-based protein sources. Aim for a serving or two of beans (about a cup) every day, as well as daily servings of soy,nuts, and whole grains, says Leslie Bonci, MPH, RD, director of sports nutrition at University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

This public service announcement brought to you by your friendly neighborhood carnivore.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Z4good, how about a link? 

If I read the same article, you are twisting the facts. They were studying a low-protein vegetarian diet but that has nothing to do with a normal well-rounded vegetarian diet. 

They need to compare vegetarian vs. a meat diet with subjects getting the same amount of protein, just from different sources.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

alphazz said:


> Z4good, how about a link?
> 
> If I read the same article, you are twisting the facts. They were studying a low-protein vegetarian diet but that has nothing to do with a normal well-rounded vegetarian diet.
> 
> They need to compare vegetarian vs. a meat diet with subjects getting the same amount of protein, just from different sources.


Here is the link: JISSN | Full text | Low-protein vegetarian diet does not have a short-term effect on blood acid¿base status but raises oxygen consumption during submaximal cycling

Here is the conclusion:

*Conclusions*

A low-protein vegetarian diet followed for 4 days had no acute effect on venous blood acid-base status in young recreationally active men when compared to the normal diet of the subjects. The vegetarian diet increased VO2 during submaximal aerobic cycling suggesting that the submaximal cycling economy was poorer after LPVD compared to ND. However, this had no further effect on maximal aerobic performance. According to these results, a low-protein vegetarian diet cannot be recommended as a means to improve submaximal or maximal aerobic performance via acid-base balance as opposed to what was hypothesized. More studies are needed to define how nutrition, its comprehensive composition, and the duration of the diet period affect acid-base balance and performance. More specific measurements should also be used to determine the underlying mechanisms for higher VO2 after the low-protein vegetarian diet.

Certainly not a smoking gun against a well balanced vegetarian diet. The problem is most people get too much protein which can lead to many other issues.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Z4good, how about a link?
> 
> If I read the same article, you are twisting the facts. They were studying a low-protein vegetarian diet but that has nothing to do with a normal well-rounded vegetarian diet.
> 
> They need to compare vegetarian vs. a meat diet with subjects getting the same amount of protein, just from different sources.


Sorry, but I twisted no facts. I copied it verbatim from May issue, Bicycling Magazine, page 40, left hand column. They are the ones who drew the conclusion, not I. 
You've read the whole article, draw your own.

This whole vegan vs meat eater war cracks me up. I personally admire someone who is a vegetarian, and am always searching for answers in my own diet matrix.

I've never been a vegan basher, but I do find their passion misplaced at times. But I do admire your passion nonetheless.

Peace


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> Sorry, but I twisted no facts. I copied it verbatim from May issue, Bicycling Magazine, page 40, left hand column. They are the ones who drew the conclusion, not I.
> You've read the whole article, draw your own.
> 
> This whole vegan vs meat eater war cracks me up. I personally admire someone who is a vegetarian, and am always searching for answers in my own diet matrix.
> ...


Bicycling Magazine did a disservice to their readers with "their conclusion" We could all do studies with diet leaving out important nutrients, carbs, proteins, etc and come to similar conclusions. All you have to do is look around at many people today and come to the conclusion that their diets and level of exercise sucks.
The bottom line is, that it is hard to change one's diet. Most people would be better off reducing meat and dairy and going more to a plant based diet. Many of us are eliminating meat and dairy.
And there are studies that show people who go vegetarian may not be successful (drop out rates) but that doesn't really mean the diet is bad for them, just that they aren't ready to make the commitment that is needed to change, or with their family and friends not being on board. How many people buy a bike, get all jazzed and then forget it??

I rode my bike by a neighbor lady the other day and she said "I wish I could do that!". My response to her was that she could! The look on her face was priceless!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Z4, Your original post made it sound like a vegetarian diet affected oxygen needs during exercising. You completely left out that they modified a vegetarian diet to make it low in protein. Heck, they could probably come up with the same results with a low protein meat diet. The problem with the study is that it doesn't address anything. I just got done with breakfast and that means that I've had over 70 grams of protein today already. Most meat eaters probably had less than 5 grams of protein for breakfast but probably large amounts of sugar and caffeine.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Right, a proper scientific study would have controls relating to protein intake. Does anyone know if such a study has been done? Comparing a vegetarian diet to a meat diet where protein and macronutrient intake is similar. 

For the record, I eat meat.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Z4, Your original post made it sound like a vegetarian diet affected oxygen needs during exercising. You completely left out that they modified a vegetarian diet to make it low in protein. Heck, they could probably come up with the same results with a low protein meat diet. The problem with the study is that it doesn't address anything. I just got done with breakfast and that means that I've had over 70 grams of protein today already. Most meat eaters probably had less than 5 grams of protein for breakfast but probably large amounts of sugar and caffeine.


I'm sorry for Christ's sake!!! I copied the article from bicycling magazine. I left out nothing and was not trying to twist any facts. 
I agree with 95% of what you guys say. I like some fish, fowl and eggs occasionally. 
Peace


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## Orthoguy (Dec 4, 2011)

It's all good Z4. Everybody has an opinion. I tend to be 95% plant based but I see absolutely no problems with occasionally indulging in lean healthy meat on occasion. The article you posted appears to have an agenda just like the vast majority of other articles and "study's" out there. There are zealots on both sides of the fence.

As a side note I watched The Perfect Human Diet - Welcome this weekend. Many passionate opinions, very little science.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

The science seems to be that my relatives a few years ago were apes. I'm sorry, that's not science. That's an opinion that can't be substantiated and goes totally contrary to everything we see happening in the world today which should be enough to put this opinion outside of the realm of science.


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## Orthoguy (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm sure there are a number of folks that would judge your view point just as harshly alphazz.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I said nothing of my viewpoint Ortho, but science is supposed to be about things that are observed and tested and the whole ape thing is as far fetched as the movie series Planet of the Apes (probably pre-dates many of you).


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## ultraspontane (May 26, 2011)

kjlued said:


> Life without bacon is just not worth living.
> 
> nuff said


Your life must be lame, then.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


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## ultraspontane (May 26, 2011)

Z4good said:


> It is your OPINION that meat is not healthy. It is my OPNION that proper cuts of meat, in moderation are healthy. I too have done a ton of research on diet, and have come to a completely different conclusion.
> Children are not obese from eating too much meat. Children are obese from too much sugar, too much processed foods, too much grains, too little exercise.
> For every study you mention, I can find numerous rebuttals.
> If it works for you great. But you shouldn't assume that because one has chosen to eat meat, they are ill informed and must be converted.
> Besides, if we weren't meant to eat meat, "Why does it taste so darn good?


Is it also an OPINION that people who eschew animal products from their diet live significantly longer than their peers, on average?

Since you've done a "ton" of research on diets, you must have known that already. Maybe if you don't like the outcomes of those studies, you can go find some with conclusions that line up better with your world view so can continue to support your "reverse scientific method" way of thinking.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

ultraspontane said:


> Is it also an OPINION that people who eschew animal products from their diet live significantly longer than their peers, on average?
> 
> Since you've done a "ton" of research on diets, you must have known that already. Maybe if you don't like the outcomes of those studies, you can go find some with conclusions that line up better with your world view so can continue to support your "reverse scientific method" way of thinking.


Wow. World view. Really? Reverse scientific thinking. Seriously? You have all the answers right? My way or the highway.
You don't know me or my dietary habits. You must see everything in black or white. If not eating meat produces the cynical attitude that you display, you might want to consider some bacon.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh crap I forgot. As per Richwolf's original intention this thread is for having fun and bashing meat eaters. 

So, go ahead and bash away.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't eat dead animal flesh out of respect for the animal's lives now.
...and I love a good steak,or fried chicken, or steamed shrimp...whatever.
But the animals enjoy living their lives too...so if I can get my nutrition needs without eating their bodies and the little chicken's eggs,then so be it.
I don't see anything wrong with eating flesh and eggs though...I really don't...for those that want it.It tastes yummy.

P.S.-some of my best buddies are animals.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

zarr said:


> P.S.-some of my best buddies are animals.


I bet they would be yummy too.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

ultraspontane said:


> Your life must be lame, then.


I was wondering when ultraspludgetaint would chime in to spew his omnivore hating rhetoric.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

zarr said:


> I don't eat dead animal flesh out of respect for the animal's lives now.
> ...and I love a good steak,or fried chicken, or steamed shrimp...whatever.
> But the animals enjoy living their lives too...so if I can get my nutrition needs without eating their bodies and the little chicken's eggs,then so be it.
> I don't see anything wrong with eating flesh and eggs though...I really don't...for those that want it.It tastes yummy.
> ...


And I don't eat plants out of respect for them producing oxygen....


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## mbco1975 (Feb 28, 2012)

*Crowning Achievements in the world of BACON!*


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

The bacon mouthwash commercial is funny.

I'm not really interested in omnivore hating rhetoric. I don't care that you kill animals to eat, they are animals. I don't really care what others eat. Brain, testicles, liver, fried pig intestine, tongue, pigs feet, or bacon, it doesn't matter to me. The problem is that it does affect me. When someone has a heart attack from their high cholesterol diet, quite often it's tax payer dollars that help pay the bill. Health care in America is out of control because of the poor health habits of Americans, and it affects all of us.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> The bacon mouthwash commercial is funny.
> 
> I'm not really interested in omnivore hating rhetoric. I don't care that you kill animals to eat, they are animals. I don't really care what others eat. Brain, testicles, liver, fried pig intestine, tongue, pigs feet, or bacon, it doesn't matter to me. The problem is that it does affect me. When someone has a heart attack from their high cholesterol diet, quite often it's tax payer dollars that help pay the bill. Health care in America is out of control because of the poor health habits of Americans, and it affects all of us.


So following your logic we are going to have to ban more then just meat eating. How about the guy who rides a motorcycle without a helmet?
What about people who go hiking ill prepared, then have to be rescued on my tax dollar. 
How about alcohol. That cost us billions. We as a society are involved in all kinds of risky behavior. Shall we ban it all. Shall we require all to go vegan and exercise one hour a day?


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Man,I want a big juicy fat-marbled, garlic-onion-pepper and gravy thick cheese coated chuck steak right now.
...YEEEYUMMMY!!!!
...but my cat wants it more,there's not enough to go around,so after I remove the onions,she gets it.
Leaving me with the vegetables and salad.
Oh well...I guess that's the way it goes...
There's more to life than just being a vegetarian...it's a sacrifice for the ones you love sometimes.I tried to split the steak with the cats...but they won't let me have any.They don't care how much veggies and fruit and nuts I eat though...peace of mind.
Crazy too.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Well Z4, you probably don't really want to know how I feel.

My father died of cancer. Before he died, I spent some time at Fitzsimons Army Hospital in the cancer wards. It was unfathomable to me to walk past rows and rows of guys who were talking to each other with vibrators held to their throats with one hand and a cigarette in the other. If you are unwilling to learn, unwilling to change, and don't care, then it should be on your dime. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for that.

I have a relative that has drank all his life. His liver is failing and he wants a new liver. Taxpayers will be paying for it. I like him, but I'm not for it, heck, he still drinks and smokes.

I live in an area where people from back east come out to snowmobile. All winter long they are having to rescued. If you can afford a $50,000 truck, a $15,000 trailer, and a $15,000 sled, then you should be able to afford a $150 Spot. If not, you should die with your sled.

If you can't look before crossing the street, it's your fault. (From another thread on here about a bicyclist who hit an elderly man.) The cyclist was probably not acting properly, but how many years does it take for people to learn to look before crossing a street? I look even when I have to "walk" light.

I think we should stop rescuing people from their stupidity and then we will have fewer people to rescue.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. I too feel exactly like you in that if you engage in irresponsible behavior you should bear the consequences. 
We're I differ is it seems to me that (and I may be wrong) vegatarians seem to lump all meat eaters into one big fat unhealthy group. 
I am very health conscious. I do eat small amounts of fish and meat. Lots of vegetables, little fruit, no sugar, little diary, no grains. I exercise daily, don't smoke or drink, and try to explore my spiritual side. 
I hope I don't become a burden on you or any other taxpayers.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

zarr said:


> Man,I want a big juicy fat-marbled, garlic-onion-pepper and gravy thick cheese coated chuck steak right now.
> ...YEEEYUMMMY!!!!
> ...but my cat wants it more,there's not enough to go around,so after I remove the onions,she gets it.
> Leaving me with the vegetables and salad.
> ...


I would eat the cats.


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## ultraspontane (May 26, 2011)

Hey guys, did you know that I'm a card carrying member of PETA? People Eating Tasty Animals! 

That ultrasplooge (heh heh, get it? I took his name and changed it to well, never mind... I'm so clever!) guy cares about animals? What a *****! If he was a real man, he'd be an apathetic prick like me, with repressed insecurities about my sexuality.

For every animal he doesn't eat, I'll eat three. 

Every animal has its place in the world, next to the mashed potatoes! Heh heh derp.

Did I miss any?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Hey guys did you know I like to go around neg repping every body just because they eat meat because I am jealous that I can not partake in the yummy tasty goodness of bacon and still keep my "V" Card... That is in Vegan Card of course because there is no way in hell a little b!tch ass prick like me will ever lose my Virginity Card no matter what I eat. 

I think that covers it.:thumbsup:


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Z4, you sound like you have a good diet and a healthy lifestyle. I don't hate those who eat meat. I don't even mind if someone buys a pill for every ailment they have, as long as they pay for it. In our educated society, very few are educated on how to live healthfully. I just finished riding with a friend of mine who is a pharmacist. He says he feels that over 70% of the medications that he fills for people are not needed. He is not a health nut.

My health really suffered over the last dozen years as my wife and I worked hard, raised our children, and attended all their activities. Last year I was hit hard with some health issues, mostly caused by a genetic lung disease but some because of my lack of attention to my health. While seeing the doctor because of some cluster headaches that caused me to scream in pain for 6-10 hours at night, the doctor didn't want me to leave without some high blood pressure medicine. I told the doctor I didn't need the medicine, that I knew how to get that under control. Now, with diet and exercise, my blood pressure is typically between 102 and 110. I could have taken a pill for the rest of my life, or just change a few things in my life and everything is golden.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

kjlued said:


> I would eat the cats.


She's too quik.
Can't do that....
What I been trying to do is turn her into a vegetarian so I can eat the meat.
...but she said homey don't play dat.
...so it's back to beans and rice for chibrobro.
It's not that bad though.


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## ultraspontane (May 26, 2011)

Hey all of you pansy vegans out there, do you ever think of all of the poor wheat stalks that had to die to make the bread for your pansy little cucumber and celery sandwich? Didn't think so. Burn!

I heard you guys like animals. Just for that, I'm going to aim for squirrels when I drive. Git R' Dunnnnnn! What kind of b1tch ass little baby cares about animals, anyway? What are you, some kind of (Insert homophobic reference here)?


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

ultraspontane said:


> Hey all of you pansy vegans out there, do you ever think of all of the poor wheat stalks that had to die to make the bread for your pansy little cucumber and celery sandwich? Didn't think so. Burn!
> 
> I heard you guys like animals. Just for that, I'm going to aim for squirrels when I drive. Git R' Dunnnnnn! What kind of b1tch ass little baby cares about animals, anyway? What are you, some kind of (Insert homophobic reference here)?


mmmm....never thought of it that way.
...steak sandwich,anyone?


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

zarr said:


> She's too quik.
> Can't do that....
> What I been trying to do is turn her into a vegetarian so I can eat the meat.
> ...but she said homey don't play dat.
> ...


I thought meat was supposed to make you fat and slow and a vegan diet make you quick like a ninja.

Get a gun and you will eating pvssy soon.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

ultraspontane said:


> Hey all of you pansy vegans out there, do you ever think of all of the poor wheat stalks that had to die to make the bread for your pansy little cucumber and celery sandwich? Didn't think so. Burn!
> 
> I heard you guys like animals. Just for that, I'm going to aim for squirrels when I drive. Git R' Dunnnnnn! What kind of b1tch ass little baby cares about animals, anyway? What are you, some kind of (Insert homophobic reference here)?


Man, you really do have some deeply rooted serious issues. 
I am not trying to be funny here. If I were you, I would seek some psychiatric help. 
Either that or just eat some damn bacon and get over it before you end hurting yourself.

Until then, I will try and stop making fun of you because I know it isn't nice to make fun of the mentally handicapped.


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm sure that a good meal will calm and heal when people (and animals) get upset.
We should all just have a nice meal and be happy.
...Oh no! :eekster: my cat is trying to eat my oatmeal! :eekster:
...could this be the beginning of a serious weight -loss for me? :eekster:


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

ultraspontane said:


> Hey all of you pansy vegans out there, do you ever think of all of the poor wheat stalks that had to die to make the bread for your pansy little cucumber and celery sandwich? Didn't think so. Burn!
> 
> I heard you guys like animals. Just for that, I'm going to aim for squirrels when I drive. Git R' Dunnnnnn! What kind of b1tch ass little baby cares about animals, anyway? What are you, some kind of (Insert homophobic reference here)?


Scientists Confirm that Plants Talk and Listen To Each Other, Communication Crucial for Survival : Science/Tech : Medical Daily

I'm curious? As science progresses, and we find out that plants do indeed communicate, and have feelings, will we continue to rip them from the ground, chop there heads off, and throw them into boiling water?:nono:

On a serious note, if people actually had to kill, bleed out, gut, and skin there dinner there'd be a lot less meat eating going on around here.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

alphazz said:


> The bacon mouthwash commercial is funny.
> 
> I'm not really interested in omnivore hating rhetoric. I don't care that you kill animals to eat, they are animals. I don't really care what others eat. Brain, testicles, liver, fried pig intestine, tongue, pigs feet, or bacon, it doesn't matter to me. The problem is that it does affect me. When someone has a heart attack from their high cholesterol diet, quite often it's tax payer dollars that help pay the bill. Health care in America is out of control because of the poor health habits of Americans, and it affects all of us.


If we are going to bring money into this, please understand that dying when you reach retirement age is what will save taxpayer dollars, vs living another 30 years.
We are living longer despite all the chemicals in our meat.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm not sure we will be living longer. From what I've heard, adults will be outliving their children in today's America because of the poor health of the children. And, if you walk through the assisted living communities and the nursing homes, are we living longer, or delaying death longer?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

alphazz said:


> I'm not sure we will be living longer. From what I've heard, adults will be outliving their children in today's America because of the poor health of the children. And, if you walk through the assisted living communities and the nursing homes, are we living longer, or delaying death longer?


An interesting article on junk food and Alzheimers: Alzheimer's could be the most catastrophic impact of junk food | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

From another thread on diet, this is a great article. (It's not a vegetarian thing.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/m...cience-of-junk-food.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

Dinner last night was a nice big New York steak, cooked medium rare, with french fries. Don't worry vegetarians, I cooked the fries in vegetable oil...


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

joshh said:


> Dinner last night was a nice big New York steak, cooked medium rare, with french fries. Don't worry vegetarians, I cooked the fries in vegetable oil...


Sounds like you've figured out what you like.

By the way, some vegetarians don't eat meat because they are opposed to killing, they are typically the weird ones, but some just for health reasons and don't care how many animals are killed in the process of feeding meat eaters. They are animals after all.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> I'm not sure we will be living longer. From what I've heard, adults will be outliving their children in today's America because of the poor health of the children. And, if you walk through the assisted living communities and the nursing homes, are we living longer, or delaying death longer?


I highly doubt there will be a drastic instant change in the lifespan of children where in one generations time people will be dying 30 years sooner. The notion of such an idea is ridiculous at best.

Also, a nursing home is not necessarily the place to develop an opinion on diet and its affects on society. I am sure there is no greater or lesser chance of being put in a nursing home because you are a vegan or a carnivore. Maybe you will enter a few years sooner, maybe you won't. Considering the vegan diet is fairly new, it will be many years before we actually know. Most the elderly people today still have no idea what a vegan is and if they ever heard the term don't know it is any different that vegetarian.

BTW, If you want to get all philosophical, one could say that from birth we are only delaying death.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

kjlued, if nothing changes, and today's children continue to become more obese with little exercise, it will be possible to see a very large swing in the shortening lifespan of our population.

Also, I disagree about your nursing home comment because that is exactly the place many go when those around them can no longer take care of them. So, the sooner you encounter health problems, the sooner you can expect to be there.

We will all die, but I hope to live a more active life, doing the things that I like to do longer than if I didn't think about my health. I've not always been as obsessed as I am now, but the longer one lives, the more one sees.

By the way, if you read this article, you will get an understanding as to why the health of Americans is in so much danger. The companies making what we consume don't care at all about our health. Go, have a coke. Have two or three, and get a large bag of chips to go with it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/m...cience-of-junk-food.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

I would say a lot of older people are in homes, not so much because we can't take care of them, but sadly more a matter of convenience. 
Many countries honor their parents and care for them in their homes. But here, it seems we find it easy to dump them in a care facility and wipe our hands.
I worked in an old folks home years ago and it was sad to see how these people were forgotten and neglected.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> kjlued, if nothing changes, and today's children continue to become more obese with little exercise, it will be possible to see a very large swing in the shortening lifespan of our population.


Yeah, I am sure that is fully diet and not video games.

There are more things these days that keep kids on their ass not on their feet then there ever was. Adults too for that matter.

And I agree that the companies out there do not care about what we eat. 
Don't need to read the article to know that. 
But I don't care if somebody cares about what I eat, because nobody is forcing me to buy their processed crap.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

I was thinking that if when we die and return to dust, we will then fertilize a plant, that will be eaten by an animal, that will be shot by a hunter, that will feed his omnivore family. So theoretically speaking, today's vegetarian could be tomorrow's T-bone. 

Just sayin...........


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Z4good said:


> I was thinking that if when we die and return to dust, we will then fertilize a plant, that will be eaten by an animal, that will be shot by a hunter, that will feed his omnivore family. So theoretically speaking, today's vegetarian could be tomorrow's T-bone.
> 
> Just sayin...........


Absolutely brilliant.

You are correct, but I am willing to cut out a few steps and just eat a vegan. 
They are a little gamey tasting but if cooked right, they are ok.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

How does one not salivate at the sight of this? Especially with the blood for that little extra bit of flavor.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

Look at all the vegetables on that medium rare ground cow.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

joshh said:


> Look at all the vegetables on that medium rare ground cow.


Mmmm Mmmm Mmmmmmm! and look at the results! Ha ha!


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

Uh yeah, that obviosuly came around ONLY from eating the burger, and not beer, lack of exercise, etc etc etc.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

joshh said:


> Uh yeah, that obviosuly came around ONLY from eating the burger, and not beer, lack of exercise, etc etc etc.


Agreed. All I know, is too fatten up cattle before they are slaughtered is to feed them GRAINS makes them nice and fat and the meat nicely marbled.

So keep eating those grains. After all we are herbivores right?

Fat does not make you fat.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> Agreed. All I know, is too fatten up cattle before they are slaughtered is to feed them GRAINS makes them nice and fat and the meat nicely marbled.
> 
> So keep eating those grains. After all we are herbivores right?
> 
> Fat does not make you fat.


_"While a moderate intake of fat doesn't make you fat, excessive fat intake does, since it is calorie dense, and too high calorie consumption leads to fat gain. [3] Some foods are particularly bad, let's take a meat pie as an example. An average meat pie with 455 calories, 28.5g fat, 40.5g carbs, 7.5g protein has 255 calories from the fat, since fat has 9 calories per gram compared to 4 calories per gram in carbs and protein. The pie was only 19% fat by weight, but has 56% calories from fat. That fat is what will cause you to go over your daily calorie requirements.

So a food with 19% fat is too fatty and will lead you to become fat, but more healthy foods such as those with 10% fat or less and limited sugar will not lead to fat gain."_

But how many people have french fries and sugary sodas along with their burgers, steaks or whatever??

How many slim people do you see at "fat" errr fast food joints where the main course is meat??


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Actually it's the bun, the cheese, the sugary ketchup, the fries fried in the vegetable oil, and the sugary soda that is the culprit. The meat is the least of your worries. Study after study shows a high fat (right type) low carb diet is best for weight loss. 
I will use myself as an example. Before 235lbs borderline blood pressure, blood sugar high , typical metabolic syndrome. Low carb, high fat diet. Now 185lbs(for over two years) blood pressure normal. The most amazing result was lower lipids across the board. But HDL increased. 
I can't speak for anyone else. But it works for me.


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## Orthoguy (Dec 4, 2011)

durianrider said:


> All i know is that I top most of the Strava leaderboards in my city of Adelaide Australia and we literally produce more top level riders from all styles than any other city in on EARTH lol!


You're joking, right?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Bdabike (Jan 27, 2013)

No joke.

I have seen trucks from these porta potty companies, unloading their tanks into fertilizer dispensing devices, on several farms that supply, real stores, with real food. No siht.

That was very close to the time of the spinach, e-coli, break out a few years back. Also, this was supposed to be a farm that produces organic foods to numerous stores throughout the world. 

Take it for what it is worth, but my friend that works in the agriculture field, took me to witness it.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Z4good said:


> Agreed. All I know, is too fatten up cattle before they are slaughtered is to feed them GRAINS makes them nice and fat and the meat nicely marbled.


Z4, that is very simplified. My father is a rancher and there is a lot more to making cattle fat these days than just feeding them. It would shock most people to see how much junk is either poured on them or injected into them throughout the course of a year. And then, when they go to the stock yards, it gets even worse. Their stomachs also process the food they eat differently than ours.


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## ultraspontane (May 26, 2011)

Z4good said:


> Actually it's the bun, the cheese, the sugary ketchup, the fries fried in the vegetable oil, and the sugary soda that is the culprit. The meat is the least of your worries. Study after study shows a high fat (right type) low carb diet is best for weight loss.
> I will use myself as an example. Before 235lbs borderline blood pressure, blood sugar high , typical metabolic syndrome. Low carb, high fat diet. Now 185lbs(for over two years) blood pressure normal. The most amazing result was lower lipids across the board. But HDL increased.
> I can't speak for anyone else. But it works for me.


Low carb diets are very effective for weight loss.

I'm more interested in what is best for my long term wellness, than to shed some pounds in short order. The reason low carb diets are effective weight loss tools are because they put you in a constant state of ketosis. Great for losing weight, maybe not as great for a long term solution.

Also, I get to eat quinoa, brown rice, amaranth, hemp bread, and many other nutritious food that gets axed from the neo-Atkins diet fads.

By eschewing animal products from my diet, science tells me that I may lower my risk of cancer (of all types), too. Fock cancer.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Z4, that is very simplified. My father is a rancher and there is a lot more to making cattle fat these days than just feeding them. It would shock most people to see how much junk is either poured on them or injected into them throughout the course of a year. And then, when they go to the stock yards, it gets even worse. Their stomachs also process the food they eat differently than ours.


Your right. It's very simple. Finish cattle off on which grain diet, ( which is not natural for them) and they will fatten up. Of course growth hormones, antibiotics and other crap are pumped into them. 
But I know that if you finish off a human with bread, rice, pizza, crackers, and chips they will also fatten up rather nicely! 
As soon as I stopped grains, I immediately started to lose weight, and cleared up a lot of medical issues I was having. 
You guys place too much focus on flesh, turning a blind eye to all the other factors that are involved in health. 
On a lighter note, a girl went into McDonald's and ordered a quarter pounder, but said she didn't want the meat or cheese! Nice!!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Carbs are very important in a diet. I wouldn't partake in these fad diets that give short term gains at long term risks.

From Web MD: 

"High protein, low-carb diets can cause a number of health problems, including:

Kidney failure. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.
High cholesterol. It is well known that high-protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease, stroke, and cancer.
Osteoporosis and kidney stones. High-protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete a large amount of calcium in their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones. A diet that increases protein at the expense of a very restrictive intake of plant carbohydrates may be bad for bones, but not necessarily a high-protein intake alone.
Cancer. One of the reasons high-protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber, and antioxidants they contain. It is therefore important to obtain your protein from a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and vegetables. Not only are your needs for protein being met, but you are also helping to reduce your risk of developing cancer.
Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis). Low-carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day."


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> How many slim people do you see at "fat" errr fast food joints where the main course is meat??


Well, not a lot since I don't eat at fast food restaurants much. 
However, on the rare occasion that I do, I usually see some skinny people there. 
Of course they don't have 2 burgers, a large fry and a super sized soda in front of them.

FYI, you can eat reasonably healthy at a fast food restaurant or you can choose to pig out on the worst crap there.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

richwolf said:


> Carbs are very important in a diet. I wouldn't partake in these fad diets that give short term gains at long term risks.
> 
> From Web MD:
> 
> ...


Never said Hi Protein diet did I?? Please don't put words and or diets in my mouth.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> Never said Hi Protein diet did I?? Please don't put words and or diets in my mouth.


How do you know I was addressing you??


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

richwolf said:


> How do you know I was addressing you??


Since you didn't reply that you were not addressing him.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

richwolf said:


> How do you know I was addressing you??


Well if you weren't, my apologies.

And if you we're, my statement stands.

And do you really want to use WebMD as a source? Isn't this the same main stream medical, whose only answer to what ails Americans is just another prescription pill to cover up the underlying problems?


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

kjlued said:


> Since you didn't reply that you were not addressing him.


Nice:thumbsup:


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

ultraspontane said:


> Low carb diets are very effective for weight loss.
> 
> I'm more interested in what is best for my long term wellness, than to shed some pounds in short order. The reason low carb diets are effective weight loss tools are because they put you in a constant state of ketosis. Great for losing weight, maybe not as great for a long term solution.
> 
> ...


While I agree with some of your points, I don't eat so low as to put myself in ketosis..the biggest reason I dropped grains was there tendency to cause a rapid rise in my blood sugar. We have a genetic predisposition to diabetes in our family, and following Dr Richard Bernstiens diet initially has kept me off meds. 
I do agree that animal products can be problematic as far as cancers are concerned.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Z4, from the little you have given us about your diet, it seems like you eat meat but eat healthfully as well.

The problem I see is that few, if any, of the companies producing foods care about what is healthy, and that includes all of the dairy and meat industries. The reason I feel that the meat industries are the worse is because the people eating them are getting concentrated amounts of all that they inject them with or pour on their skin. There is a reason that the risk of cancer in 1900 was 1 in 30, 1980 was 1 in 5, 1990 was 1 in 4, 1995 was 1 in 3, and in 2000 was 1 in 2. One big difference is that meat stays in your stomach longer than fruits and vegetables. Do you realize how prevalent constipation is in America? Constipation is a small concern. The bigger concern is how long people go between bowel movements and what is happening to all the meat that remains in one's stomach for multiple days. It is the reason for the stomach and intestinal tract cancers. The pesticides that get sprayed on the veggies and fruits aren't good for us either, but they work differently. One, the plant itself filters out a lot of bad coming from the soil. Second, the rain and water is constantly cleaning the food. Third, the nutrients are taken from the fruits and veggies quickly and then it is gotten out of the body quickly as well.

Have you watched wild animals. They eat and often are pooping while they eat. A large portion of Americans go for days without a bowel movement. I once followed a grizzly into the trees after he had been eating in a meadow and he didn't walk 75 yards before he had left numerous piles of fresh scat. What does that look like? Like this:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

dave54 said:


> Over in the vegan thread a common sub theme in the posts was omnivores were trying to hijack the thread.
> 
> Now in an omnivore thread the vegans are the ones attempting the hijacking. It is hypocrisy -- plain and simple.


you make a good point.... except for the fact that you're wrong. go read post #1.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirty $anchez said:


> No need to bash meat eaters, just gloat in the probability of out living them.
> 
> 
> joshh said:
> ...


if you truly believed this your cold, dead corpse would have already been found with a _"goodbye cruel world..."_ note pinned to it.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> Have you watched wild animals. They eat and often are pooping while they eat. A large portion of Americans go for days without a bowel movement. I once followed a grizzly into the trees after he had been eating in a meadow and he didn't walk 75 yards before he had left numerous piles of fresh scat. What does that look like? Like this:


Seriously dude?

Well, if you gotta go there, I poop every morning when I get out of bed. I am quite ok with my once a day habit and when it occurs. It is efficient and convenient. I think crapping while I eat would be a problem so I will continue to eat meat. Thank you for reassuring my diet choices are correct with your poop theory.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

I was in Whole Foods last night picking up dinner..

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but what's with all the fake meat products?

All kinds of burgers, hotdogs, sausage patties, fake bacon, all made with products other then meat.
I have my theory, but really, if you eschew meat why are these products around? Are they transition meals, ( meat eaters turning vegetarian slowly), or are they fulfilling a deep instinctive need to eat flesh? .... Or are they just party favors, so you can sit around eating these and still bash your meat eating buddies.

On a side note I love whole foods whole hypocrisy thing going on. You walk in and immediately hit the produce department, complete with books, Raw Diet, China Study, blah, blah, blah.....
Then you follow the crowd, and head back to the smokehouse, a huge area with enough flesh to satisfy, even the most jaded carnivore.. Next stop is the inside bar, with domestic and international beers galore...Gotta love it.
Oh, I had the giant green garden smoothie. Spinach, Kale, banana and strawberry!!! Along with some smoked chicken breast and a side of Broccoli......And I had a huge dump this morning.......


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> if you truly believed this your cold, dead corpse would have already been found with a _"goodbye cruel world..."_ note pinned to it.


Uh no. One of my personal philosophies; homicide before suicide. Why would I kill myself when I can kill you?
Nowhere did I say anything about wanting to exit this world, die, or take myself out. I simply pointed out that as this world spirals down the drain, you will potentially be stuck here longer as you try to stave off death for as long as possible. But you could slip and break your neck in the shower tomorrow, and all the veggies in the world wouldn't save you.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> I was in Whole Foods last night picking up dinner..
> 
> I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but what's with all the fake meat products?
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone of us is not hypocritical. As a business they have to stock what sells and people love their meat and beer.
But at least they provide some information and product that one can base a healthy diet on.
I am glad your diet is working for you and I hope it leads to a long term weight loss and good health.
My take is that carbs are good for you and is needed by the body. I am talking about complex carbs though. Simple carbs in my opinion are bad for you.
I have gone from a dozen years of being vegetarian to almost completely vegan. I ate tons of dairy and eggs on my old diet. I was pretty much in the 140 pound range. I am now under 130 and feel great on the bike. I feel that my cardio vascular is much better probably because my diet is helping improve the blood flow.
My diet centers around complex carbs, lots of fruits and vegetables, nuts and I juice a lot of vegetables for my evening cocktail. I also take vitamins including B-12 which is essential for my diet. For me it is a sustainable diet that I enjoy. I look forward to adding more diversity through learning more recipes.
Am I a tree hugger animal loving nut? Sure. I feel that there are a lot of negatives to raising meat since it is such an environmentally intense industry. The amount of water needed to raise just one pound of meat is staggering. 
People obsess about their bikes and components and shaving a gram off here and there yet their motor sucks due to lack of mileage and a poor diet. I just turned 60 and I feel better on a bike than I ever have. Hills that used to leave me gasping for breath just a few short years ago are now child's play. 
Well anywho good luck to you!


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey richwolf thanks for the point counterpoint. 
I think that as with any area life there is a middle ground to be found. 
Just as a note I too believe complex carbs are essential. But from my perspective Americans get far too many carbs of all types. So what may seem low to some, is normal to others. In any event carbs, of any type raise my blood sugar. Too avoid the long slow path to insulin dependency I have chosen a low carb regimen. 
I'm too getting up there. Just turned 57. But I continue to put some young rascals to shame on the trails. 
My father who is 92 taught me many things, but two of them stick with me. One thing he told me was I love you. Sounds gushy but he came from a tuff generation that didn't express feelings well.
The other...........Everything in Moderation. 

Now could someone post a pic of Bacon so we can get this thread on track!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Richwolf, on a whole, you have to admit that there is a big difference between what the average Whole Foods shopper looks like and what the average Super Walmart shopper looks like physically. Take a random sample of 20 shoppers from each store and show me the group photo and I'm sure it would be an easy task to pick which group was from which store.

I don't think a diet has to be perfect in order to reap big rewards in health. There might even be the diminishing returns thing going on as one gets more focused on diet.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

alphazz said:


> Richwolf, on a whole, you have to admit that there is a big difference between what the average Whole Foods shopper looks like and what the average Super Walmart shopper looks like physically. Take a random sample of 20 shoppers from each store and show me the group photo and I'm sure it would be an easy task to pick which group was from which store.
> 
> A don't think a diet has to be perfect in order to reap big rewards in health. There might even be the diminishing returns thing going on as one gets more focused on diet.


I don't shop at whole paycheck (errr foods) since we don't have one close. We do have a nice local produce stand, so between that and a small health food store and a regular market we do OK. I also don't shop at Walmart either for a number of reasons. Being a little guy I get worried about being run over by some big mama! Ha ha! I feel like a little Fiat in a world of SUV's!

I do hope to reach that diminishing return thing you speak of though.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirty $anchez said:


> No need to bash meat eaters, just gloat in the probability of out living them.
> 
> 
> joshh said:
> ...


uh yeah... wanting to exit this world via death is exactly what you said. so much so that you're publicly gloating that you'll die before others. it's just that you don't have the stones to beat us all to the finish line right now via a bullet in the brain and instead have chosen to hasten your exit by taking the cowardly way out of intentional, slow, suicide by fork. something that you also publicly gloat about.

additionally, there's a profound difference between trying to "stave off death as long as possible" and living a healthy lifestyle that has been proven to result not only in longer life but in a much higher quality of life until death (irrespective of age/cause) as well. a healthy diet/lifestyle isn't about "staving off death" and merely existing to draw yet one more lingering breath it's about wringing every ounce of life out of the ride and wanting it to last as long and be as robust as it possibly can. it's about seeing life as an adventure full of excitement, fulfillment, wonder, and mystery and wanting to explore and experience as much of it as possible. concepts that peopole with empty, pathetic lives who view the world solely through misery goggles and consider life being "stuck here" fail to grasp.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> uh yeah... wanting to exit this world via death is exactly what you said. so much so that you're publicly gloating that you'll die before others. it's just that you don't have the stones to beat us all to the finish line right now via a bullet in the brain and instead have chosen to hasten your exit by taking the cowardly way out of intentional, slow, suicide by fork. something that you also publicly gloat about.
> 
> additionally, there's a profound difference between trying to "stave off death as long as possible" and living a healthy lifestyle that has been proven to result not only in longer life but in a much higher quality of life until death (irrespective of age/cause) as well. a healthy diet/lifestyle isn't about "staving off death" and merely existing to draw yet one more lingering breath it's about wringing every ounce of life out of the ride and wanting it to last as long and be as robust as it possibly can. it's about seeing life as an adventure full of excitement, fulfillment, wonder, and mystery and wanting to explore and experience as much of it as possible. concepts that peopole with empty, pathetic lives who view the world solely through "misery goggles" fail to grasp.


Wow, I just wish I could multiquote like you!

So let me sum this up. You can't eat bacon and be happy? Or you can eat bacon and be happy, but not as happy as you are! Nice


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> Wow, I just wish I could multiquote like you!
> 
> So let me sum this up. You can't eat bacon and be happy? Or you can eat bacon and be happy, but not as happy as you are! Nice


talk about a non sequitur! you may not be able to multiquote but you can erect one heck of a strawman! :thumbsup:

your summarization was an epic fail. rather than addressing a correlation between bacon and happiness or suggesting it was impossible to ingest the carcasses of animals and be happy i was addressing a specific comment/viewpoint made by a specific person who views life on this earth as being "stuck here" and was gloating that they were 1.) intentionally killing themselves with their diet; 2.) that they looked forward to the standard dietary illnesses that accompany the s.a.d.; and 3.) that because of their diet they would experience (and were looking forward to) a premature death compared to those eating a much healthier diet.

to answer your question directly: can one eat bacon and be as happy as me? certainly. not all bacon eaters view life as being "stuck here" as does joshh.  in fact, many may view it with as much wonder and amazement as i do. some maybe even more so. but statistically speaking a bacon eater will be as happy as i am over a much shorter lifespan suffering with progressive maladies and decreased quality of life on "the back 9" followed by premature death as opposed to those who choose a plant based diet.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> talk about a non sequitur! you may not be able to multiquote but you can erect one heck of a strawman! :thumbsup:
> 
> your summarization was an epic fail. rather than addressing a correlation between bacon and happiness or suggesting it was impossible to ingest the carcasses of animals and be happy i was addressing a specific comment/viewpoint made by a specific person who views life on this earth as being "stuck here" and was gloating that they were 1.) intentionally killing themselves with their diet; 2.) that they looked forward to the standard dietary illnesses that accompany the s.a.d.; and 3.) that because of their diet they would experience (and were looking forward to) a premature death compared to those eating a much healthier diet.
> 
> to answer your question directly: can one eat bacon and be as happy as me? certainly. not all bacon eaters view life as being "stuck here" as does joshh. in fact, many may view it with as much wonder and amazement as i do. some maybe even more so. but statistically speaking a bacon eater will be as happy as i am over a much shorter lifespan suffering with pregressive maladies and decreased quality of life on "the back 9" followed by premature death as opposed to those who choose a plant based diet.


Are you serious?

1. I was simply trying to inject some levity into this thread as per the Op's request.

2. You seem to have the answers for everything dietary, so everyone else must be wrong.

3. You don't seem to have anything nice or conciliatory to say to anybody that opposes your views.

4. I hope you enjoy your extra ten years of life. You might want to check those studies that indicate vegetarians show no advantage in health as they approach their nineties

5. Peace


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Jeez, this thread is still going. Face palm.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> 1. I was simply trying to inject some levity into this thread as per the Op's request.
> 
> ...


bwaaaahahahahahaha..... awesome. you inserted yourself into this by engaging me with a passive agressive insult in a thread started to bash meat eaters because i bashed a pessimesitc meat eater who views life as marking time and now you wanna cry "foul!", "poor, poor, me", and "mean ol' monogod" when you get a response. a response, btw, that was not mean, ill tempered, or even sharp tongued... yet it STILL made you cry. classic! :lol:

pro tip: htfu and put on your big boy pants so you don't get all butthurt over comments made on interweb forums. you'll enjoy your time around here a lot more. :thumbsup:


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Okay E-stud.


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> uh yeah... wanting to exit this world via death is exactly what you said. so much so that you're publicly gloating that you'll die before others. it's just that you don't have the stones to beat us all to the finish line right now via a bullet in the brain and instead have chosen to hasten your exit by taking the cowardly way out of intentional, slow, suicide by fork. something that you also publicly gloat about.
> 
> additionally, there's a profound difference between trying to "stave off death as long as possible" and living a healthy lifestyle that has been proven to result not only in longer life but in a much higher quality of life until death (irrespective of age/cause) as well. a healthy diet/lifestyle isn't about "staving off death" and merely existing to draw yet one more lingering breath it's about wringing every ounce of life out of the ride and wanting it to last as long and be as robust as it possibly can. it's about seeing life as an adventure full of excitement, fulfillment, wonder, and mystery and wanting to explore and experience as much of it as possible. concepts that peopole with empty, pathetic lives who view the world solely through misery goggles and consider life being "stuck here" fail to grasp.


Thank you Monogod. I had absolutely NO idea what I said, what I typed, or what I meant by what I said and typed, until YOU came along and told me. I am so glad you know me better than I do what's going on in my mind. Wow. And you said Z4good's summary of you was an epic fail. If that's epic fail, than your summary of what I said should start a whole new category we can call "Holy ****, you're retarded".
I like how you advocate for me to put a bullet in my brain. Is that the soft loving liberal side of you speaking? Some of you vegans are really really testy people. You should get that checked out by a doctor, preferably a head shrink type. If there is one thing I have figured out about you from your posts, it's that you think you know everything, you think know better about everything than anyone else, and no matter what anyone says it is obviously wrong unless it's inline with your views because you said so. 
So I'm just going to tell you to go get fvcked, because I'm not going to pay anymore attention to any of your posts. You can just post for me since you know what I am thinking. I'm not mad at anything you said, because everything you said was wrong, and stupid. I just think you're a dooche waffle and there's no more reason for me to converse with you. (incoming, another "don't get so butthurt on da intarwebz" comment from Monogod)

Oh, I do love this little quote:


> wanting to exit this world via death is exactly what you said.


First, I never said that at all, in any way shape or form, and there is nothing in my posts that you can use to show otherwise.
Second, everyone leaves this world via death. Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department. Unless you think people go home to the alien mothership. Then in that case, everyone still exits via death.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Hey Rich, 130 lbs? 
What are you 5'2"? 
At 5'10/11" there is no way I would want to be that skinny.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

kjlued said:


> Hey Rich, 130 lbs?
> What are you 5'2"?
> At 5'10/11" there is no way I would want to be that skinny.


5'5" after I am on the stretching rack for a few hours!
128 lbs this AM


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

joshh said:


> blah...blah....blah.... boo hoo hoo.... sniffle, sniffle, sniffle...


sorry to hear about ya soiling your frilly panties. hope you're able to get the stains completely out.

backpedal all you want, but you're the one who said you wanted to die early cuz this world is "going to ****" and you don't want to be in it. and you're the one who said you were going to check out early by how you eat. i say man up and get out now if it's so bad and you're so miserable on this planet. my guess is that if you ever develop lifestyle diseases due to your diet you'll be going to every length possible to stay on this crummy planet a little longer and will regret your choices rather than accepting your fate in a docile manner and being glad you're dying a painful and premature death by the fork in your hand.

one thing's certainly clear... for all their tough talk about how awesome and macho they are for being at the top of the food chain by eating the carcasses of other animals meat eaters are an ill tempered and paper-thin skinned bunch lacking anything remotely resembling a sense of humor! :lol:

pro tip: don't dish it out if ya can't take it, nancy. :thumbsup:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Jeez, this thread is still going. Face palm.


hey, this thread is so full of awesome it's almost unbelievable!

look at what we've got here: carnivores that come into a thread started for the sole purpose of bashing them so that they can bash the veggies -- but then getting butthurt, crying "FOUL!", and running home to mama crying when they get bashed.

that's epic win on so many levels! :thumbsup:


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't wanna knock eating meat/flesh products,but after being sick awile,and then not eating meat products,I can honestly say I feel much better.But maybe it's not just the meat,I also pretty drastically limited drinking carbonated beverages (soda,not beer which I don't drink anyway).I also started drinking green tea/honey/lemon instead of so much juice.I haven't been doing this long though,only a coupla months,but I do feel a lot better.Doesn't meat putrify to a certain extent before the body digests it? Especially if you eat a bit too much of it?
Not saying meat is bad for you...but I'll go as far as saying that I think I'm better off without it,especially at my age.(60 years old).
I think some things don't play well nutrition-wise as we get older, and salt,sugar and animal flesh are high on the list I believe.
But that's just my ".02".
Z


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> hey, this thread is so full of awesome it's almost unbelievable!
> 
> look at what we've got here: carnivores that come into a thread started for the sole purpose of bashing them so that they can bash the veggies -- but then getting butthurt, crying "FOUL!", and running home to mama crying when they get bashed.
> 
> that's epic win on so many levels! :thumbsup:


Could you do us a favor and drop the Mono. Feelin a little butt hurt big guy?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

monogod said:


> hey, this thread is so full of awesome it's almost unbelievable!
> 
> look at what we've got here: carnivores that come into a thread started for the sole purpose of bashing them so that they can bash the veggies -- but then getting butthurt, crying "FOUL!", and running home to mama crying when they get bashed.
> 
> ...


case in point. :lol:


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> case in point. :lol:


Bash away Mono (god). Bash away big guy.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> Bash away Mono (god). Bash away big guy.


as i recall that's why the OP started this thread. 

hint: see post #1


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## joshh (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey Z4good, I think it's meme time










































And a picture of Monogod


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)




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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


>


I don't get it. I just don't get it I tell ya........

We started a vegan thread. And those bastard carnivores started bashing us.

So we started a bash carnivore thread. And those bastard carnivores started bashing us.

It's Epic. It's Epic I tell ya!!!!!!!!! Just classic!,,,

Hey mono I got one for ya..... I'll HTFU. If you STFU!!!!!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Z4good said:


> I don't get it. I just don't get it I tell ya........
> 
> We started a vegan thread. And those bastard carnivores started bashing us.
> 
> ...


You know if I thought starting this thread would turn it into an insult contest, then..................

I would have started it a lot sooner!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

Old guys...try a vegetarian diet.
All I need now is a nut butter making machine and a coupla other choppa tools.
Makes it easier on my tooth to chew my food.
Or should I say my half-a-tooth.
Got to have some protein if you don't eat meat.
The 21st century is a good time food-wise for coots. There's some good machines out there now.
O.G.
old geezers.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

I have a solution that will make both sides happy.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

zarr said:


> Old guys...try a vegetarian diet.
> All I need now is a nut butter making machine and a coupla other choppa tools.
> Makes it easier on my tooth to chew my food.
> Or should I say my half-a-tooth.
> ...


Am I too old for this to make any sense?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> I don't get it. I just don't get it I tell ya........
> 
> We started a vegan thread. And those bastard carnivores started bashing us.
> 
> ...


calm down, nancy -- help's on the way...


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Am I too old for this to make any sense?


Nope


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> calm down, nancy -- help's on the way...


Hey monopod. Get off the computer. The libraries closing now.

Got your Nancy right her Big guy


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

And a picture of Monogod







[/QUOTE]

Is this really you?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> Hey monopod. Get off the computer. The libraries closing now.
> 
> Got your Nancy right her Big guy


hey retard, learn how to spell. "libraries" means more than one library while "library's" is a contraction of the words "library" and "is".

and thanks for the offer, but i don't roll that way. post that here instead and no doubt you'll get what you're craving.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Z4good said:


> And a picture of Monogod


Is this really you?[/QUOTE]

I am guessing "no".

Try clicking on his profile and you will see his pic.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)




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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

thanks alphazz. ordered.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)




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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


>


Orly?

Does Meat Rot In Your Colon? No. What Does? Beans, Grains, and Vegetables! - GNOLLS.ORG


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

kjlued, congrats. You found a nutbag who doesn't agree with most of those in the know. Most of the information you find will tell you that meat stays in your stomach for up to 7 days. It's why most large meat eaters have problems with constipation.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> hey retard, learn how to spell. "libraries" means more than one library while "library's" is a contraction of the words "library" and "is".
> 
> and thanks for the offer, but i don't roll that way. post that here instead and no doubt you'll get what you're craving.


Retard? Wow nice. Still Butt hurt Big Guy?


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

alphazz said:


> kjlued, congrats. You found a nutbag who doesn't agree with most of those in the know. Most of the information you find will tell you that meat stays in your stomach for up to 7 days. It's why most large meat eaters have problems with constipation.


My guess is you didn't even read it. You refuse to even consider that there may be some cracks in your theory...


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> Hey monopod. Get off the computer. The libraries closing now.
> Got your Nancy right her Big guy
> 
> 
> ...


"stupid is as stupid does". ~ forrest gump

still unable to be original, nancy?


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

monogod said:


> "stupid is as stupid does". ~ forrest gump
> 
> still unable to be original, nancy?


I guess you still are,


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> kjlued, congrats. You found a nutbag who doesn't agree with most of those in the know. Most of the information you find will tell you that meat stays in your stomach for up to 7 days. It's why most large meat eaters have problems with constipation.


Orly?

Stop with idiocy now please.

How long does meat sit in your gut? | Focus Magazine


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

123


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Z4good said:


> I _*guess*_ you still are,





Z4good said:


> My _*guess*_ is you didn't even read it.


since logical, rational replies consistently escape you i see you've resorted to guessing....


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

456


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

I think it's the "combo" that makes the difference.
Personally,when I eat steak,chicken,or fish...along with the soda and mac and cheese or potatoes and veggies,I can be pretty dang sure i'll be breaking out the methane boophorn shortly afterward.
After careful observation,I noticed that I wasn't busting my eardrums and ricter scale knocking the house off the foundation when I deleted the meat and soda from my plate.
But once again, I have to say my findings may not be the same as somebody else's.
This is why I don't knock people's diets.Regardless what the scientific community thinks or agrees or disagrees about,I can't say they know everything.But if you're eating a combo of things that amp up the old backyard trombone section so bad you have to get away from yourself,you might wanna make a change.
Z


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Done


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Z4good said:


> Mono oh Mono where are you? Hey look Buddy, I'm sorry for all the things I said about you.
> 
> You really seem like a nice fella, and it was wrong of me to say those nasty things.
> 
> ...


You can't can't say you are leaving and then end with insults and name calling. It is unethical and the worst way to lose.

That is worse than the people who flick you off on the road and won't look back at you because they are afraid you will flick them back off.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

monogod said:


> since logical, rational replies consistently escape you i see you've resorted to guessing....
> 
> 
> Z4good said:
> ...


thinking someone is an idiot for using sentence structure you erroneously believe to be incorrect: FREE
posting this ironic epic fail on the interwebs so the entire world can marvel at your profound lack of mental acuity: PRICELESS!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

...breakfast time.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Subscription Cancelled.


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

Z4good said:


> Wow monomania, you need to work on your sentence structure. Are you really this big of an idiot, or do you just pull off a good impersonation?


Who's the idiot?


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

kjlued said:


> You can't can't say you are leaving and then end with insults and name calling. It is unethical and the worst way to lose.
> 
> That is worse than the people who flick you off on the road and won't look back at you because they are afraid you will flick them back off.


Your right. Monogod. Bash away. Now I'm leaving. How's that?


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

manbeer said:


> I began ketogenic diet a few weeks ago. Lots of bacon, milk, eggs , cheese etc. I lost 15 lbs and 5 percent body fat since then. 2 pants sizes. No BS. I feel better and have consistent energy. So based on that I would say that meat and dairy are not a problem


i'd be careful with that one, bro. that's a recipe for heart attack, stroke, both types of diabetes, profound systemic electrolyte imbalance, impotence, and a host of other maladies. you've basically described the original atkins diet which has been recognized as one that will seriously clog and harden arteries and lead to a host of cardivascular and other systemic problems such as stroke, heart attack, pulmonary and aortic embolism, etc.

the human body runs on carbs ,not fat. eating a low carb high fat/cholesterol diet may result in initial weight loss but it will eventually all come back and then some bringing with it a host of other issues.

although a plant based diet is optimal for the human machine if you're going to include animal flesh and by-products make sure it's less than 15% at most of your caloric intake. imho a little weight loss now is not worth heart attack, stroke, obesity, diabetes, dialysis, etc. later. yomv.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

alphazz said:


> Subscription Cancelled.


Why bother telling us? 
If you want to cancel, cancel. We don't need to know, nor do we care.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

monogod said:


> i'd be careful with that one, bro. that's a recipe for heart attack, stroke, both types of diabetes, profound systemic electrolyte imbalance, impotence, and a host of other maladies. you've basically described the original atkins diet which has been recognized as one that will seriously clog and harden arteries and lead to a host of cardivascular and other systemic problems such as stroke, heart attack, pulmonary and aortic embolism, etc.
> 
> the human body runs on carbs ,not fat. eating a low carb high fat/cholesterol diet may result in initial weight loss but it will eventually all come back and then some bringing with it a host of other issues.
> 
> although a plant based diet is optimal for the human machine if you're going to include animal flesh and by-products make sure it's less than 15% at most of your caloric intake. imho a little weight loss now is not worth heart attack, stroke, obesity, diabetes, dialysis, etc. later. yomv.


Agree with everything in red.

Do not agree or disagree with the rest.


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