# What kids really need (or don't need) on entry-level 20/24" bikes



## S​​usspect (May 12, 2017)

On an entry-level trail bike for easy trails and neighborhood cruising, what do kids need/benefit from vs. holds them back.


Rigid fork vs suspension
Rim brakes vs cheap disc brakes
Trigger shifter vs grip shifter (most of these bikes seem to come with grip shifters which my daughter hates)
Weight. Brands don't seem to like to publish this. Which is frustrating. (25 lbs vs 28.5 lbs?)
Other?

My thoughts are rigid/whatever brakes/trigger shifters. In this light, the Rocky Mtn Ridge 24 seems to fit the bill.

Thoughts? What do beginner kids need/not need to enjoy trail riding?


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

I think Kona did a good job with this one.
Agree on the grip shift. But I am looking for a suspension fork because I think it will make the riding a bit mOre comfortable.


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## S​​usspect (May 12, 2017)

Grinchy8 said:


> I am looking for a suspension fork because I think it will make the riding a bit mOre comfortable.


Suspension is nice when it's good suspension.... I've seen an almost new coil shock on a kid's bikes (2021 Trek) that barely moved and seemed to act more like a boat anchor than anything else. I wonder if 2.4/2.6 tires might be the best suspension we'll get in the 500/600 price range.

If we could get an air shock, I'd go for it, but that moves you up the food chain.


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## yakswak (Apr 17, 2004)

This bike is hard to beat for that price range: Nucleus 24 Youth Hardtail Bike

Ticks all of your boxes (air suspension, hydraulic disc brakes, trigger shifters, <25lbs). Has good geometry also (67deg HA) versus most others sold at the local bike shop for this price range. My daughter has been on one for the past few months and have loved every ride. Works well on smoother flow trails and smaller jumps (tabletops, no gaps!). Also works well on neighborhood road rides as kids can ride anything for that&#8230;she did a local bike camp recently that teaches safe street riding and rode 15+ miles every morning for a week on the streets and parks around our neighborhood.


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## VThuckster (Jul 10, 2010)

Disc brakes are a must, grip shift sucks, good shock or a rigid with plus tires, weight is irrelevant as long as it’s a descent bike.


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## S​​usspect (May 12, 2017)

yakswak said:


> This bike is hard to beat for that price range: Nucleus 24 Youth Hardtail Bike


Dang, yeah that's a pretty good deal. I'm going to look into that one, thanks.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Important things are weight, tires and trigger shifter. Rigid fork is fine if the tires are thick enough (2.2 and above), it reduces weight. Better brakes and suspension are only necessary if you intend to ride harder trails and you want to kid to go fast. But for neighbourhood cruising and light trails it's just extra weight.


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## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

As a general guide you can simply shop by weight. The "obesity epidemic" of children's bikes is so bad that avoiding super heavy bikes is the most important thing. And they are all super heavy...

Second would be proper fit. This is usually the second most horrible thing about kid's bikes. Especially overly long cranks, which result in overly high BB, pedal strikes and toe overlap problems. So you can almost weed out the really bad bikes by finding a bike with proper length cranks.

Third is secondary issues like shifters. First consider whether you want gears at all. Going single speed is a fantastic way to save a ton of weight and remove maintenance requirements. Next would be an internal hub, which at least doesn't have a derailleur to get out of alignment. But if you do get a standard drivetrain, remember kids have weak hands. If you are rich, get them electric shifting. If not, I've had much better luck with thumb shifters than grip shifters.

Good brakes with adjustable levers are a huge confidence booster and safety item.bi don't think they have to be disc brakes or hydraulic but I'm really liking the MT200 hydros I've got on a couple bikes. They are cheap and the lever is adjustable.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

I bought my 10 year old a extra small womens Liv (Giant) Embolden last year and its been great for him. Barley fit him when I got it but he is growing into it nicely and be good for a few more years. Great deal for $1550 and should be able to resell for a decent price.








Embolden 2 (2022) | Women Trail bike | Liv Cycling US







www.liv-cycling.com


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## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> As a general guide you can simply shop by weight. The "obesity epidemic" of children's bikes is so bad that avoiding super heavy bikes is the most important thing. And they are all super heavy...
> 
> Second would be proper fit. This is usually the second most horrible thing about kid's bikes. Especially overly long cranks, which result in overly high BB, pedal strikes and toe overlap problems. So you can almost weed out the really bad bikes by finding a bike with proper length cranks.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%. Weight is the #1 criterion; think about the bike's weight as a percentage of your kid's weight. How happy would you be pedaling a 40lb or 60lb bike? A few manufacturers that get this are Islabike, Woom and Trailcraft. We've had several Islabikes and Wooms over the years and they're light and actually designed for kids rather than just being scaled down adult bikes.


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## mlloyd007 (Dec 7, 2009)

VThuckster said:


> Disc brakes are a must, grip shift sucks, good shock or a rigid with plus tires, weight is irrelevant as long as it's a descent bike.


If it's a descent bike, sure, weight is not very relevant because by definition you're descending. If, on the other hand, your kid is planning on pedaling the bike, a decent bike should be light weight. The difference between a 20lb. bike and a 30lb bike for a kid is huge.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Really would have liked to try a grip shifter on my daughter's bike. Her thumb struggles to reach the levers and her dyslexia prevents her from remembering which lever to push. 


Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

got a mint giant areva off cL today for $100. It has grip shift and it’s pretty atrocious to use for my 9 yr old. She’s used to my 1x and it’s her only request so far. The bike is heavy but still lighter than a 20” Electra. Front wheel is 4lb, rear 5.2 lb. The basic fork effective enough.
Got separately a few rims one with a megarange freewheel on it. That rim is fighting my trueing effort, will have to swap free wheels next weekend.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

mlloyd007 said:


> If it's a descent bike, sure, weight is not very relevant because by definition you're descending. If, on the other hand, your kid is planning on pedaling the bike, a decent bike should be light weight. The difference between a 20lb. bike and a 30lb bike for a kid is huge.


Good point. But it even applies to downhill riding, weight has a significant effect on how any bike handles. A 30-kilo kid on a 15-kilo bike is like a 100-kg adult on a 50-kg bike; it's exhausting to try to control something that's half as heavy as you are at speed.

For any kid's bike, keep it as lightweight as possible. On an entry-level bike, keep it as simple as possible, too.


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## cacatous (Dec 1, 2013)

Rigid fork Aluminium)
Tubeless wheels and 2.4" tyres
Trigger shifter 
1x drivetrain 
8 speed wide ratio cassette
Hydraulic brakes 
Adjustable brake levers

Added bonus 

Carbon rigid fork 
Straight through axles
Provision for dropper post


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

This is a pretty subjective topic and there are so many things to consider. If you only plan for the kid to ride “easy trails” then you might make compromises you wouldn’t consider if you want them to develop with the bike.

My oldest went from a Frog 55 to a Pello Reyes, and now he’s on Nukeproof Cub Scout 26 Race.

I was drawn to the Pello because it has suspension adjusted geometry and they offer a “kid tuned” air fork. I very quickly had to replace the mechanical discs with hydraulic because he was ‘running out’ of brakes at the DH park, and the 9 speed SRAM X5/7 drivetrain got replaced with a Microshift Advent X and narrow-wide chainring because he was losing the chain on rough terrain. Finally I had to put some proper tires on it because the ‘upgraded’ Kendra Small Block 8s we opted for lacked grip on the trails and pinch flatted as he hopped off rocks. He wasn’t doing any of those things when he got the bike!

All in the Pello + upgrades cost the same, if not more than the Nukeproof that replaced it.

My 8 year old has been riding the Pello for a few months, and my nearly 6 year old is on a Cannondale Quick 20 and watching him bump and crash over roots that the older two cruise over with their air forks is hard to watch.

TLDR - buy the bike you think they’ll need after a few months, not the one they need right now!


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@chiefsilverback
For sure. It's generally a lot more expensive to buy parts _à la carte_ afterward compared to when they're included on a complete bike.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

gramr said:


> @chiefsilverback
> For sure. It's generally a lot more expensive to buy parts _à la carte_ afterward instead of included on complete bike.


What's really annoying is when they fit a 'lesser' part to save a few cents. Salsa released the Journeyman 24, a drop bar gravel bike for kids, that comes with Microshift's Advent drivetrain. Advent is offered with either an 11-42 or and 11-46 cassette and Salsa opted for the smaller. Why? Give a kid as much climbing gear as you can. They could have fitted the larger cassette and charged $5 more for the bike, rather than the buyer having to shell out $40 on a new cassette.


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## VThuckster (Jul 10, 2010)

mlloyd007 said:


> If it's a descent bike, sure, weight is not very relevant because by definition you're descending. If, on the other hand, your kid is planning on pedaling the bike, a decent bike should be light weight. The difference between a 20lb. bike and a 30lb bike for a kid is huge.


I guess I will amend my statement from weight is irrelevant to don't be that Dad that tweaks out about it. All the Dads I've seen who dump a bunch of money into shaving pounds of their kids 24, or geeking out on components ends up with a bike that doesn't get ridden. Get a good bike but don't sweat it and have fun. Quit when the kid is done and throw some DH days into stoke the fire. Kids love DH and it won't spoil them.


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## mrpizza (Jun 2, 2013)

I just bought my kid a Specialized riprock 20". Immediately dumped the grip shift for a trigger setup and got better grips for it. He loves it.


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## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I had WTP grips that were really narrow on my son's 26er and he didn't like them because they were still too fat compared to the 1/2" handlebars on his 20"er. I put one layer of racquetball racquet tape on them and he likes it better. Doesn't seem great to me but whatever.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

VThuckster said:


> I guess I will amend my statement from weight is irrelevant to don't be that Dad that tweaks out about it. All the Dads I've seen who dump a bunch of money into shaving pounds of their kids 24, or geeking out on components ends up with a bike that doesn't get ridden. Get a good bike but don't sweat it and have fun. Quit when the kid is done and throw some DH days into stoke the fire. Kids love DH and it won't spoil them.


I took 2lbs off the Cub Scout 26 by replacing the stock 2.6" DHFs with tubes, with 2.3" DHRs setup tubeless.

Other than that I swapped the 32T chainring with a 30T to give him all the climbing assistance I can. He did 3.5 'enduro' laps at Highland mountain last year on the Pello, I need to get him over there this year to see what he can do.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Quoting the OP, as the thread has diverged a couple of times. (Not a bad thing.)

Your questions are pretty broad and very dependent on use case. Your post does offer some clues that can help narrow it down. "Easy trails" probably needs a little better description because this can vary tremendously. And it seems you're looking specifically at a 24" bike, so your kid is probably somewhere around 8-10?



Susspect said:


> On an entry-level trail bike for easy trails and neighborhood cruising, what do kids need/benefit from vs. holds them back.
> 
> Rigid fork vs suspension
> Rim brakes vs cheap disc brakes
> ...


Fork: Go rigid unless the bike is equipped with a quality, lighter weight air fork. For the price, we have been very pleased with the Manitou Markhor 26 on our son's Vitus Kids 24+.

Rim vs Disc Brakes: You can get by with rim brakes, but as your kid gets more into trail riding, hydraulic discs will be well worth it. If you're looking at bikes with a quality fork, they'll likely be disc brake only anyway.

Trigger vs Grip Shifter: Not even a question in my mind. Trigger shifters. My oldest started on trigger shifters on his first 20" geared bike and it has never been an issue.

Weight: It matters. From the reputable brands, look for the lightest option available that ticks as many of your other boxes as possible. When looking at the bike, think about parts (especially wear items) that could easily be replaced with lighter options.

Other: Geometry. It has been mentioned previously, and I'll throw crank length into this one. The cranks are simple enough to swap out for something with proper length. But, you aren't going to easily change a bike geometry. If it isn't right for your needs, you can spend all the money and swap every part imaginable and it won't do you much good.

It was mentioned previously, but bears repeating... For the money, I don't think you can beat the Vitus Nucleus 24. This is the bike we would have purchased had it been available at the time. It checks so many boxes at only $600. Trail capable and still functional as a neighborhood cruiser. It does have some shortcomings, chief being 100mm & 135mm axles and a straight steer tube. The wheels are also likely tanks. For most kids though, even as they advance, it will be a great platform. Throw on a dropper, convert it to tubeless and let them rip.


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## S​​usspect (May 12, 2017)

rton20s said:


> Quoting the OP, as the thread has diverged a couple of times. (Not a bad thing.)
> 
> Your questions are pretty broad and very dependent on use case. Your post does offer some clues that can help narrow it down. "Easy trails" probably needs a little better description because this can vary tremendously. And it seems you're looking specifically at a 24" bike, so your kid is probably somewhere around 8-10?


Yep, my daughter is 9.5, and small for her age. She did some trail riding on her 20" (old Rocky Mountain Edge with a horrible fork), and had a stint with the pump track, but gravitated towards neighborhood riding after a while. I think having better equipment might help her regain the vision, and progress.

We're definitely talking about green trails, but around here that still means rocks and roots, and some climbing and descending.

And yeah, I ended up ordering the 24" Vitus Nucleus. Agree with you and other posters that it gives great spec for the price. I am hoping she can actuate the air fork (she's like 58 lbs), but I know she'll like the shifting and braking just fine. 67* head angle? Let it rip! 🤘


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Great choice! I don't have any experience with the Grind fork, but it is designed for kids. My son is about the same age, about 70 lbs and his Manitou Markhor 26 (designed for adults) works well for him.

When she (you) is ready, check out the Brand X Kids dropper. We put one on my son's Vitus and he loves it. It also gets a lot of attention from the adults who see him on the bike. That is always a cool little confidence booster for him. You're fortunate in that the Nucleus already has all of your cable routing sorted.

Brand-X Ascend Kids Dropper Seatpost (70mm) | Chain Reaction Cycles


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

chiefsilverback said:


> What's really annoying is when they fit a 'lesser' part to save a few cents. Salsa released the Journeyman 24, a drop bar gravel bike for kids, that comes with Microshift's Advent drivetrain. Advent is offered with either an 11-42 or and 11-46 cassette and Salsa opted for the smaller. Why? Give a kid as much climbing gear as you can. They could have fitted the larger cassette and charged $5 more for the bike, rather than the buyer having to shell out $40 on a new cassette.


On smaller wheeled bikes it's always a balance -- more range is nice, but the bigger you go for the cassette, the closer the derailleur is to the ground and the more likely it is to take damage.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

TimTucker said:


> On smaller wheeled bikes it's always a balance -- more range is nice, but the bigger you go for the cassette, the closer the derailleur is to the ground and the more likely it is to take damage.


42T and 46T cassettes use the same derailleur. Anything with a wide range cassette (~40T+) is going to require a longer cage to accommodate the cassette. It really comes down to where the kids will be riding. If we didn't have bigger climbs, our son would probably have been fine with a 30/32 low gear combo on his 24" bike. Since we needed bigger gears for our trails anyway, we went ahead with the 46T Acolyte cassette to give him the widest range possible. We'd be dealing with the same issue cage/jockey wheel clearance issue regardless of which cassette we picked.

30/34 on his 20" bike was great and didn't require a long cage derailleur. The gear inches are similar due to the different tire sizes. And I would have to measure, but I would bet cage clearance isn't much different.


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## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

People think they need a huge cassettes because they are used to 29ers which need huge cassettes. You should do the actual math. This is another area where kids get shafted because people put them an equipment for adults.

There's really not much use for gear inches less than 20 on a MTB. My cargo bike has the lowest gear of like 17 gear-inches and it's pretty ridiculously low. I don't think such a low gear would really get used on a MTB. 
When front and rear sprockets are the same, the gear-inches calculation is easy because gear inches is equal to the wheel size. So a 29er with equal front and rear teeth has 29 gear-inches, which is already a low gear, but I can see wanting a lower gear than that once in a while. A 20-inch bike with equal front and rear teeth (like 30t chainring and 30t cassette) is 20 gear-inches which is basically low enough. A 24-inch bike with a 42t has 17 gear inches which is lower than your kid will ever need.

My son has a 42t Acolyte cassette on a 26er with a 30t and it's plenty of range. That's 18.5 gear inches. Then again his 26er only weighs 20lbs. If your kid is on one of these 25 or 30lb bikes maybe they do need cargo-bike gearing.

I also have multiple 20-inch bikes with 30t chainrings and 34t or even 28t freewheels, and the kids can scale walls with them. Granted those are 12lb-14lb bikes too.

I live in Idaho and trust me we know what hills are.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

Agreed; 1:1 gearing is plenty low on 20” wheels for most situations.

Just don’t forget that the shorter crankarms on kid’s bikes give less mechanical advantage than adult-sized ones, so you have to that into account when you’re looking at equivalent gearing instead of comparing directly.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

I've done the math. Fortunately, Berkshire Sports has an awesome comparison calculator that makes things super easy. 

The need for low granny gears is very case dependent. Who is the rider, what is the bike, and where are they riding?

I got by for years on a rigid steel 29er running a 1x8 with a 30/40T (22 g.i.) granny gear and could hang and even smoke other riders running 50T (17 g.i.) up climbs. I also have friends and family that I ride with that NEED that low of a granny gear for some of the rides that we do. My new bike has a 10-52 (17g.i.) cassette on the rear and I rarely find myself in the granny gear. When I need it though, I'm glad it is there. It really isn't any different than the old double and triples with a 24/34 granny gear on 26" wheels.

We live in central CA and ride a lot of spots down in the valley with our kids, but also do plenty or riding up in the Sierras. We get long and steep fire road climbs and plenty of shorter even steeper punchy climbs. When my son was on his 20" Orbea with 30/34T (15 g.i.) he climbed anything and everything that the grown ups did. As soon as he got on his 24" with a 32/32T (26 g.i.) granny gear on the same trails it was nothing but complaints and walking the bike. He had no major issues on short punchy climbs or the flatter trails down in the valley. On the worst stuff, he would just walk. We quit taking him up to the bigger trails because the rides became less enjoyable for all of us.

As stated, I went through a lot of effort and just converted his bike over to an 8 speed Acolyte setup (designed specifically for kids) with 46T cassette. Could I have gone with the 42T (20 g.i.) and been fine? Probably. However, the price and effort difference to go 46T (18g.i.) is negligible. And now he has a similar gearing range to the rest of the family which are all on Eagle setups.

We also have a little guy on a 16" single speed running a 24/16T (25 g.i.) combo that we take on many of our rides. It is pretty impressive what some of these little kiddos can do with a single gear, tiny tires and no suspension. For the steepest, sustained climbs we do bust out the Tow Whee.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> People think they need a huge cassettes because they are used to 29ers which need huge cassettes. You should do the actual math. This is another area where kids get shafted because people put them an equipment for adults.


My personal experience with my kids is that I've watched them fail to complete steep technical climbs with wet leaves/roots/rocks on a 32/34 which they've been able to climb comfortably on a 32/48.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

On the 24” the 34t megarange freewheel is common. That with a 30t front and 152mm cranks is 21 gear inches. Just a touch tall it sounds.


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I don't think you can beat the Vitus Nucleus 24. This is the bike we would have purchased had it been available at the time. It checks so many boxes at only $600. Trail capable and still functional as a neighborhood cruiser. It does have some shortcomings, chief being 100mm & 135mm axles and a straight steer tube.


I ride a 2008 29er with 100mm q/r front and 135mm q/r rear with a straight 1 1/8 steerer fork. Are you suggesting kids should have a 24" XC bike with boost spacing, thru-axles front/rear and a tapered fork? Personally I think this just adds unnecessary weight and additional cost. Plus the only 110 boost 24" fork I know of....the Manitou J-Unit is a portly 1800 grams!


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## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Boost hurts q-factor and chainline too especially when you want short chainstays. Since you can fit a full cassette on 135mm I don't see the point of boost. Actually they should probably be using 130mm road spacing for kids bikes.

I've been known to make custom 75mm and 100mm hubs for kids bikes so they can have "nega-boost". It limits the gear potential, but I can still fit a few gears into 100mm and a disc brake into 110mm. I've also taken off the shelf 135mm freewheel hubs and took off enough spacers to get them down to 125mm with a 7spd freewheel. It only works if you are building a frame or maybe have a steel frame you can set. BMX frames are 120mm, but usually the geometry isn't good (BB is too high and HT too steep).

i just cranked out this 65mm hub for a 16er yesterday.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@JackOfDiamonds
That's super-cool - huge respect for machining your own hubs! ✊


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

GSJ1973 said:


> I ride a 2008 29er with 100mm q/r front and 135mm q/r rear with a straight 1 1/8 steerer fork. Are you suggesting kids should have a 24" XC bike with boost spacing, thru-axles front/rear and a tapered fork? Personally I think this just adds unnecessary weight and additional cost. Plus the only 110 boost 24" fork I know of....the Manitou J-Unit is a portly 1800 grams!


Until recently I was riding a 2006 26" hardtail but when I replaced it I went for a 120mm full suspension 29er, I didn't try to find a 'new' version of what I was riding. Kids bikes have moved on to keep up with adult bikes. Surely an 1800g legit air fork is better than a 2000g coil fork that the kids isn't heavy enough to operate?


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@chiefsilverback
For sure. That Manitou fork is a cut-down version of their full-sized 32 mm forks with lighter damping and spring rates, and is more than strong enough for a full-sized adult to use on a dirt jump bike. I bought one in 20" because I wanted the strongest and longest-travel air-sprung fork I could get on a full-sized cargo bike that can exceed 200 kg in total rolling weight, and I love it.



















I don't know where that 1800 g figure comes from; Manitou lists the weights of the 24" models as 1720 g for the Expert and 1630 g for the Pro.

There are decent alternatives that also have air springs (RST Spex/Snyper, Prevelo Heir, Trailcraft). The latter two have carbon lowers and save a bit of weight (a whopping 100 g in 24" over the Expert in the case of the Prevelo), but they also have a lot less travel (80 mm vs. 145 mm). Trailcraft claims 1485 g for their 24" fork, so there's a whole 150-ish grams to be saved there over the comparably-priced J-Unit Pro if someone's happy with 80 mm travel and QR.

Personally, I think the Manitou is an awesome fork; it's super-plush, super-tunable (full compression/rebound plus main/negative air spring and a tunable bottom-out chamber on the Pro), the damping is great, and it doesn't flex. One cool thing about it is that you can adjust the travel by simply attaching a shock pump; this opens the equalizing valve between the positive and negative air chambers, and the fork stays put wherever you want in the travel range when you remove the pump.

Maybe a bit overkill for a kid's bike, but better that than the crappy coil-spring ones that are typically equipped. The only snag with it is that it's tapered-steerer only, which limits which bikes it can go on.

Anyway, I can't imagine how amazing it would be to ride a tuned-in 145-mm travel fork as a kid. Seems well worth the extra bit of weight over a rigid fork for actual trail riding.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

gramr said:


> Anyway, I can't imagine how amazing it would be to ride a tuned-in 145-mm travel fork as a kid. Seems well worth the extra bit of weight over a rigid fork for actual trail riding.


The big thing to me is that when they start with suspension like that it removes the whole reflex of "this is going to be painful if I run into that" that I seem to have developed as a kid. It feels dumb to me, but even with 29+ tires and a 120mm fork, there's still a part of my brain that doesn't really trust its ability to take hits straight on.

My 6yo has had an air fork ever since he was on a 16" and with the 24" Junit he just plows straight over curbs & log piles like they're not even there.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@TimTucker
First-world problems, as they say. 

Yeah, it's always instructive to ride a bike with skinnier tires and a rigid fork to learn some finesse, but I feel that the extra control and anti-****-eating protection that a good suspension fork offers on the trail outweighs the risk of getting overconfident. Depends on the kid, though.

Mind you, my oldest is still too small for proper trail riding so I'm just going off my observations of riding buddies' kids. I guess what I'll probably end up doing is giving the kids a lightweight rigid bike for on-road riding, and a burlier trail bike for off-road.

One dad question: do you find that your boy considers your riding tips, or does he just charge full-bore into obstacles no matter what? If my childhood memories are correct, I probably would have taken any advice to slow down as a suggestion to go faster, and I'm wondering how I can overcome this tendency in my own children. 😬


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

gramr said:


> I guess what I'll probably end up doing is giving the kids a lightweight rigid bike for on-road riding, and a burlier trail bike for off-road.


All three of my boys have both an MTB and a BMX for pump tracks/skate parks, and my oldest also has a trials bike. I'm really tempted to get him the Salsa Journeyman 24 so he can ride with me when I go out on my gravel bike, but to date I've been unable to get this purchase authorized by my good lady wife.



> One dad question: do you find that your boy considers your riding tips, or does he just charge full-bore into obstacles no matter what? If my childhood memories are correct, I probably would have taken any advice to slow down as a suggestion to go faster, and I'm wondering how I can overcome this tendency in my own children. 😬


My oldest is really quiet, focussed and dedicated and will often ask me to film him so he can watch what he's doing in slow motion and correct/improve his technique. He'll also spend hours working on one thing. He builds bike jumps in the summer and he builds himself a ski jump in the winter to practice on. My younger two are far more "SEND IT" but they also look at what their older brother is doing and he will coach them, this is true for bikes, scooters and skis, so where they might not listen to me, they will listen to him.


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## VThuckster (Jul 10, 2010)

The old dilemma of instructing our kids in “extreme sports”. Mine are 10 and 14 and they do pay attention to me in regards to bikes and boards, but not in other aspects of life. Maybe because I have demonstrated credibility in this department and not much elsewhere, who knows. They did enjoy giving me a hard time when I passed on a bike park gap a few weeks ago. We’ve ridden a dozen or parks across the country and so far they’ve seen me hit everything. I simply said I could not visualize it and nobody else on the mountain did it that day, so I passed. It’s good for them to see those kinds of decisions. As for the kids, the older boy I have to hold back in just about everything and he has some broken bones for going ahead anyway, but now considers my opinion about whether or not he is ready for something. The younger child often needs a bit of a nudge when I know he can do something but he isn’t quite sure. He is more methodical and technical and will build up skills and think about stuff before doing it. He now clears all gaps and table tops on bike park blue jump lines and a good portion of those on black jump lines. So I guess, each kid is different and you have to find a balance with each of them, but for the reckless kids it usually takes a crash or two before they comprehend the consequences, and those crashes are better had when they are younger, before they go too fast or too big and consequences get more severe.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@chiefsilverback 
Similar dynamics with my three; good tip!


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

gramr said:


> Mind you, my oldest is still too small for proper trail riding so I'm just going off my observations of riding buddies' kids. I guess what I'll probably end up doing is giving the kids a lightweight rigid bike for on-road riding, and a burlier trail bike for off-road.


We have BMX bikes & mountain bikes. The mountain bikes get used a lot more often for neighborhood rides than the BMX bikes. I'd thought of getting something a little more "efficient" for him for pavement rides, but he seems to be having a lot more fun with just riding his trail bike around the neighborhood looking for things to try to jump off or even just bouncing on the front fork and trying to get his wheels up while we ride on flat sidewalks.



gramr said:


> One dad question: do you find that your boy considers your riding tips, or does he just charge full-bore into obstacles no matter what? If my childhood memories are correct, I probably would have taken any advice to slow down as a suggestion to go faster, and I'm wondering how I can overcome this tendency in my own children. 😬


Sometimes he listens, other times he doesn't -- I've found he's a LOT more likely to listen to what other people tell him than when I do.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

GSJ1973 said:


> I ride a 2008 29er with 100mm q/r front and 135mm q/r rear with a straight 1 1/8 steerer fork. Are you suggesting kids should have a 24" XC bike with boost spacing, thru-axles front/rear and a tapered fork? Personally I think this just adds unnecessary weight and additional cost. Plus the only 110 boost 24" fork I know of....the Manitou J-Unit is a portly 1800 grams!


My second bike is a 2010 with the same axle and steerer tube setup as yours. What I am suggesting is that since kids bikes (even from the better kid focused brands) haven't necessarily been built to a child specific standard, we are better off with bikes that meet _current_ industry standards. Yes, there has been a focus on lighter weight options by better brands, but not different standards all together. My example of the 100/135 axle and straight steerer combo is just a primary example of complying with adult bike standards when it might not be what is best for kids.

In an ideal world, the industry would get together and develop a set of standards specific to kids bikes. Everything from component dimensions, to weight limits to durability/strength requirements are different for kids and could be taken into consideration. I think we all know that isn't happening. So, my suggestion is that if we can't have child specific standards, then kids bikes should be built to _current _adult bike standards. Alternately, if kids bikes are going to hang on to legacy standards, I would like to see more manufacturers develop quality parts designed to work to those standards.

And yes, I know there are ways we can get quality parts to work to these legacy standards on kids bikes. I'm one of those "bike dads" who is constantly seeking out solutions to improve my kids bikes. Not every parent is willing to take those steps, and even fewer are going to go all "JackOfDiamonds" and machine custom parts to suit their needs.


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## yakswak (Apr 17, 2004)

Susspect said:


> Yep, my daughter is 9.5, and small for her age. She did some trail riding on her 20" (old Rocky Mountain Edge with a horrible fork), and had a stint with the pump track, but gravitated towards neighborhood riding after a while. I think having better equipment might help her regain the vision, and progress.
> 
> We're definitely talking about green trails, but around here that still means rocks and roots, and some climbing and descending.
> 
> And yeah, I ended up ordering the 24" Vitus Nucleus. Agree with you and other posters that it gives great spec for the price. I am hoping she can actuate the air fork (she's like 58 lbs), but I know she'll like the shifting and braking just fine. 67* head angle? Let it rip! 🤘


This thread is indeed interesting as it has several micro threads within... Anyway, as to the fork I think my daughter is even lighter than yours. The fork is at the lowest pressure it should be at (just below the lowest spec which is 50psi...maybe around 45psi), and she is using around 2" (50mm) which is close enough for us.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

Working thru the giant areva as parts come in. Put on the sun tour 152.5 cranks to use as a 1x to replace the riveted pro wheel 3x. Sun tour set had a steel 32t middle cog (ramped not narrow wide). Paired with the megadrive on the 24” wheel it feels plenty short. I guess we‘ll see if there is whinging or walking. The 30t chainring gets here in a few days, it’ll be even shorter.
Grips are delayed so still have the front derailleur on there As the damn grip shift required to have a place to put hand.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

It depends so much on the kid. My 7yo is an anxious and contrary little guy. I got him a used Hotrock and managed to take a few pounds out of it for him but I really don’t see building him a serious rig. He’s just not into it. Maybe the younger ones will get better bikes.

I do want to put a word in for cheap nasty forks, at least for him. I’ve seen him ride thoughtlessly into a curb and survive enough times to make me a believer. The same curbs wrecked him on his 16er.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

Good discussion all-around here. Nice to get some perspective about the non-equipment-related elements of riding, and how to approach the art of teaching and getting kids to enjoy cycling. 

I'm sure most of us learned to ride on fairly crappy bikes; on the other hand, it's amazing how quickly kids learn when the bike isn't a limitation. I'm amazed to see my kids get the hang of a balance bike before they turn two, and it's really rewarding to see them start to pedal solo when they're barely three years old. By the time they're ready for real trail riding, they'll have quite a bit of cycling experience already.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

My kid is 8, 53 inches tall and a really novice rider. We just took his training wheels off. (He had zero interest until a week ago) He rides scooters all the time and he went from training wheels to 100% independent riding basic easy downhills in two days. That said he is desperately in need of a bigger bike. His is a GT Mach1 16in. (Remember he had no interest) He is an outdoors kid. He’d rather go hunt or fish than play fortnite. I want to get him something he can tackle easy trails with, but also won’t destroy my bank account if he decides in 3 months he doesn’t care about riding anymore. I’ve looked at a bunch of bikes and read this thread, among others. Seems like a lot of the info skews towards serious trail use. I’m talking about a 75/25 pavement to trail rolling ratio.

I’ve read and watched reviews of the Polygon Ultralight Premier. It’s seems like the components on it are like lost other bikes in the price range, but the weight is considerably less than others. Does anyone know if that bike is as multi-use capable as the reviews make it seem? I saw it could take up to 2.1in tires which makes me think it could pretty easily transform into a good beginner trail bike if the 1.75s aren’t grabby enough.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bourbonieer said:


> My kid is 8, 53 inches tall and a really novice rider. We just took his training wheels off. (He had zero interest until a week ago) He rides scooters all the time and he went from training wheels to 100% independent riding basic easy downhills in two days. That said he is desperately in need of a bigger bike. His is a GT Mach1 16in. (Remember he had no interest) He is an outdoors kid. He'd rather go hunt or fish than play fortnite. I want to get him something he can tackle easy trails with, but also won't destroy my bank account if he decides in 3 months he doesn't care about riding anymore. I've looked at a bunch of bikes and read this thread, among others. Seems like a lot of the info skews towards serious trail use. I'm talking about a 75/25 pavement to trail rolling ratio.
> 
> I've read and watched reviews of the Polygon Ultralight Premier. It's seems like the components on it are like lost other bikes in the price range, but the weight is considerably less than others. Does anyone know if that bike is as multi-use capable as the reviews make it seem? I saw it could take up to 2.1in tires which makes me think it could pretty easily transform into a good beginner trail bike if the 1.75s aren't grabby enough.


In the current market you'll be able to sell the bike for pretty much whatever you paid for it so I wouldn't worry too much about being stuck with a bike you don't need.

As for that Polygon, my main reservation would be the drivetrain. That 7 speed derailleur is really bad and they get destroyed pretty quickly with even modest trail riding. It has a 14-28 cassette which is pretty limited if he does start wanting to tackle some more trails with climbs, and there's no real upgrade option because it's a free wheel, not a free hub.

The Giant STP 24 could be an option if the budget allows. A friend of mine got the hard tail version for his daughter and it came specced with Microshift's 8 speed Acolyte drivetrain, even though they list 8 speed Altus on their site. They are available in stores so maybe see if there's one nearby and take a look.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

bourbonieer said:


> My kid is 8, 53 inches tall and a really novice rider. We just took his training wheels off. (He had zero interest until a week ago) He rides scooters all the time and he went from training wheels to 100% independent riding basic easy downhills in two days. That said he is desperately in need of a bigger bike. His is a GT Mach1 16in. (Remember he had no interest) He is an outdoors kid. He'd rather go hunt or fish than play fortnite. I want to get him something he can tackle easy trails with, but also won't destroy my bank account if he decides in 3 months he doesn't care about riding anymore. I've looked at a bunch of bikes and read this thread, among others. Seems like a lot of the info skews towards serious trail use. I'm talking about a 75/25 pavement to trail rolling ratio.
> 
> I've read and watched reviews of the Polygon Ultralight Premier. It's seems like the components on it are like lost other bikes in the price range, but the weight is considerably less than others. Does anyone know if that bike is as multi-use capable as the reviews make it seem? I saw it could take up to 2.1in tires which makes me think it could pretty easily transform into a good beginner trail bike if the 1.75s aren't grabby enough.


so he's in that void between 20" and 24" sizing. my similar sized daughter has adjusted fine to a 24". She's on a $120 craigslist 2012 ish hardtail bike (giant areva, same as the trek and specialized offerings for kids), which I've put another $150 in getting it to 1x, eliminating the grip shift, and adding real pedals and new grips. It came with a basic fork (no rebound or compression control) which works surprisingly well for her needs. It weighs 24 lb.
We were screwing around yesterday in a parking lot, going over the parking curbs, riding three to five step stairs, that kind of stuff. she had a blast and can't wait to go back today. I don't think she'll need more until she's big enough for a 26" wheeled frame.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Grinchy8 said:


> so he's in that void between 20" and 24" sizing.


I'd have said 53" is firmly 24" territory.

My 8 year old is 51" and he's just moved to the Nukeproof Cub Scout 24 with a 70mm dropper, and my nearly 6 year old is 49" and riding the 24" Pello Reyes.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

This child is 50% on the growth chart, and 24" fits legs fine, but reach is a bit long on a 24" for her. She'd maxed out the 20" inch frame seating (leg length), but reach was fine. I looked at the main stuff available at LBS, didn't find anything that was going to fit better, and just bought a well maintained used version. They change so much in these years that it'll be fine in six months probably. And outgrown in a couple years.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

chiefsilverback said:


> As for that Polygon, my main reservation would be the drivetrain. That 7 speed derailleur is really bad and they get destroyed pretty quickly with even modest trail riding. It has a 14-28 cassette which is pretty limited if he does start wanting to tackle some more trails with climbs, and there's no real upgrade option because it's a free wheel, not a free hub.


It seems like most bikes in this genre and price range are using the Tourney or Tourney XT. The upside is that mech only costs about $25 so replacement isn't a big deal if it broke.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@bourbonieer
That Polygon bike seems fine for the money.

Have you considered looking for something used? Kids' bikes are often very lightly-used and only have cosmetic wear. There are deals out there if you're not in a rush. Let someone else take the initial depreciation hit and then you're essentially just putting down a deposit on a free rental. 

I snagged this Early Rider Hellion 20 for 1/3rd of its original price over the weekend. The only signs of use are a few scuffs on the pedals and QR levers; it's functionally like new, as it's been ridden so little that the discs still have their factory machining marks:










So if you're not set on going brand-new, you might be able to find a nice used bike that you can sell on when it's outgrown for the same price.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Notice how high the seat tube on that^ frame is? Kid riding that could go up a wheel size with a low seat tube frame and probably even fit a dropper. Smaller seat tube frames, equals kids on bigger wheels. Bigger wheels equals more miles, especially if it is mostly bike path or light trails. Also, not all frames are equal, even within brands. We had a 24" wheeled bike with a 10" seat tube and one with a 13" seat tube. Both Specialized. One had a decent light sprung fork. The other had the boat anchor that's sprung too heavy for kids.

The Timberjack 24 was so tall I realized I could get her on an XS B+/26+ mullet.



https://salsacycles.com/bikes/timberjack_kids/2018_timberjack_24



Notice the background pic at the top of the page. Kid on the blue one could be on a small 29er. Kid on the orange one could be on the blue one, if it had a shorter seat tube.

A bit beyond the OP's intent, but this illustrates the point with larger wheels:

Rider is 4'6" in pic. 14" frame. B+/26+ mullet. Dropper is not fully collapsed in this pic. Pretty sure she had me raise it up off the collar even.










Same day. 12" 29x2.25 Ikons. No dropper.










Kids don't "need" droppers. But droppers increase their miles before fading. Also, a kid who is confident on the bike can ride a taller seat than one that isn't. Lots of beginners like to be able to stay flat footed. Kid in the pic^ rides better than I do both up and down.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

@ilmfat
Good point about standover height and wheel size. Looks like they've significantly changed the geometry on the current model to better suit kids small enough to be riding 20" wheels:








Anyway, for the bargain I got on the 2019 model, I'm not going to complain. Good thing the kids have long legs.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

It's been a few years since I looked at grom stuffs. And usually it was on Craigslist. Lots of the early 2000s Specialized bikes are low seat tube in both 20" and 24" wheel sizes. 2006 ish is when they got dumb and added 3" to the seat tube. Lots of good looking options these days. We had a couple spawn bikes. The Banshee and Savage were great. The 26" tires on her Yama Jama were draggy. We went to the Timberjack 24 but it was too big. No room for the dropper, even all the way down. Have an Orbea MX24 with Spawn's 24" tires she finished the season with. Nice and low so we could get a dropper on it for her. Keeping that one for the stable. In November of 2019 I had her sample the Xs adult frame with the 26x2.8 rear and realized we probably coulda jumped on the +Mullet a few months sooner. Cest la vie.

My girls say droppers and good tires are their priority of preference. And they've been fans of "too" big wheels since I been cramming em on bikes. The older kid I was playing catch up with, and that's while I thought I was planning a year or two in advance. I got her a 24" thinking she was good on a 20 still, but then she hopped on it and rode twice as far as normal. And over "scarier" stuff. I shoulda skipped 26" all together, but those bikes found nice homes, so it worked out.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Lookin at the chain/seatstay lengths of some of the older kids frames, combined with watching them progress above 24" wheels, were I doing it now I'd be tempted to do it up like this:

14" Bike, lowest seat tube
16" Bike, lowest seat tube
24" frame, low seat tube and short chainstays, with 20" wheels
24" wheels for ^frame
XXS 27.5" frame (because 12" 29ers are vaporware) with 26" wheel
27.5 wheels for ^frame

All of that would be for casual riding. If the kid likes singletrack, especially tech and/or going fast, dedicated frames per wheel size is definitely more appropriate.

I've no experience with droppers on 20" or smaller. The girls did have some difficulty weighting the stock coil droppers on the adult TJs. Swapped to air for the more lightweight kid. The younger one is a bit more structurally dense and got the hang of the coil.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

The problem I’m running into is weight. My kid is 60lbs soaking wet and most of the bikes I’m finding (even spendy ones) are nearly half his weight.

So far we’ve looked a the following. *= what he likes.
Trek Precaliber 24 w & w/o sus*
Trek Wahoo 24**
Cannondale Quick 24*
Cannondale Trail 24
Polygon Premier**
GT Stomper Pro 24 (Looks like a Dicks exclusive?)
Co-Op Rev 24
Co-Op Rev DRT
Woom 5
Vitus Nucleus 24

I really like the Vitus, but $689 with the shipping is a bit spendy for our budget, and I’m afraid it might just be a lot ($$) of bike for a kid that is likely going to lay it down a lot, even on pavement.

The Cannondale bikes are nice, but it seems like we’d be paying nearly $100 more for a bike using the same components as the Polygon and Trek Precaliber.

The GT Stomper Pro seems like a decent bike for the $$, but I’m concerned about the weight. I also can’t find much about the bike anywhere. It isn’t on GT’s website, and looks like an exclusive for Dicks.

The Woom 5 is out of stock and who knows when they’ll be back in stock. Probably the best for our needs.

The Polygon seems like a decent bike all the way around. Decent tires, mediocre drive train, but lightweight, well made, and probably everything he needs right now. Plus the price is definitely right.

The Co-Op Rev 24 also seems like a really good bike for the $$, but again, I’m concerned about weight. I assume it would be possible to replace the mechanical disc brakes with tektro hydraulic discs should we choose to in the future. The Co-Op DRT on paper seems like a close competitor to the Vitus minus the air fork, but again, it’s coming in at 31lbs. My bike weighs 28!

The Trek Wahoo 24 honestly seems like a pretty decent bike. Better Shimano Altus components, a compromise on the brakes, but it has trigger shifters and the claimed weight is 21 lbs. At $470 it might be the best choice for him. I haven’t figured out max tire width, but it seems plenty capable for easy grass/dirt with the occasional root or rock.

He has saved a bunch of money for an 8 year old ($200), and he has a 25% ownership stake in this. He is leaning toward the Polygon and Precaliber. The kid is a future accountant/engineer. He’s great with numbers.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

@bourbonieer I'm not sure how much your kiddo will be trail riding. Based in the criteria I used over a year ago to select a bike for my son, I eliminated all but one bike on your list. The remaining bike is the Vitus Nucleus, and is what we would have bought my son had it been in stock.

At a lower price point, I would take a hard look at the Giant STP 24 FS. I don't care for the fork on the FS model, but the rest of the spec is great for the money. Upgrade the fork to an air fork from Manitou (J Unit is best, but 26" Markhor will do well) and consider adding a dropper and you're set.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

@rton20s I'm looking at the STP 24 and the XTC Jr Lite. I think he will be fine with a rigid fork. Like I said earlier, probably 75/25 pavement to trail and the trails will be basic and easy at that. The only thing holding me back on the Polygon is the 14-28 cassette freewheel. We have some good hills around here and I think he'd benefit from the larger cassettes on some of the others.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

"14-28 cassette" is a freewheel, not a cassette.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

bourbonieer said:


> @rton20s I'm looking at the STP 24 and the XTC Jr Lite. I think he will be fine with a rigid fork. Like I said earlier, probably 75/25 pavement to trail and the trails will be basic and easy at that. The only thing holding me back on the Polygon is the 14-28 cassette freewheel. We have some good hills around here and I think he'd benefit from the larger cassettes on some of the others.


I think a rigid fork is a better choice as well. However, the other upgrades of the STP 24 FS is what makes it worth it in my eyes. You get a wide range cassette and better shifter/derailleur (spec on the page is wrong for these, it comes with Microshift), hydraulic disc brakes, more modern geometry and current standards (1-1/8" stem vs 1" quill stem), etc. The heavy fork is really the only drawback and is easily replaceable, but not exactly inexpensive.

And I wouldn't consider any bike equipped with a freewheel rather than a freehub cassette. This is one of the deal breakers for me on otherwise decent bikes like the Commencal Ramones. I also will no longer recommend bikes that come equipped with 7 speed cassettes. Our Vitus Kids 24+ was marketed as having an 8 speed hub and it did not. It was quite an ordeal in rebuilding wheels with replacement hubs to accommodate an 8 speed cassette.

For what it is worth, our son uses his upgraded Vitus for MTB trails and the neighborhood. Our closest trails are 45 minutes away by car, so most of his usage on the bike is in the neighborhood. I'd rather him have too much bike in the neighborhood than not enough bike on the trail.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

You are spot on for the STP 24 with the fork. The coil fork isn't great (but slightly better than they used to be) but the rest of the spec is pretty decent for the price and worth the upgrade imo. Not as good as the Vitus Nucleus but close and locally found. If Giant could just make their Crest Fork in a kids version...it'd be sick. I like that bikes geometry as well. Not slack enough for rowdy trails but definitely fun for everything else. Its great to see a big brand getting closer to the ideal bike. It just needs an air fork and a slacker HTA and it'll be freaking sweet out of the box...assuming they can keep the price down. That 500$-ish mark is the magic number for a lot of families.



rton20s said:


> I think a rigid fork is a better choice as well. However, the other upgrades of the STP 24 FS is what makes it worth it in my eyes. You get a wide range cassette and better shifter/derailleur (spec on the page is wrong for these, it comes with Microshift), hydraulic disc brakes, more modern geometry and current standards (1-1/8" stem vs 1" quill stem), etc. The heavy fork is really the only drawback and is easily replaceable, but not exactly inexpensive.
> 
> And I wouldn't consider any bike equipped with a freewheel rather than a freehub cassette. This is one of the deal breakers for me on otherwise decent bikes like the Commencal Ramones. I also will no longer recommend bikes that come equipped with 7 speed cassettes. Our Vitus Kids 24+ was marketed as having an 8 speed hub and it did not. It was quite an ordeal in rebuilding wheels with replacement hubs to accommodate an 8 speed cassette.
> 
> For what it is worth, our son uses his upgraded Vitus for MTB trails and the neighborhood. Our closest trails are 45 minutes away by car, so most of his usage on the bike is in the neighborhood. I'd rather him have too much bike in the neighborhood than not enough bike on the trail.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

svinyard said:


> You are spot on for the STP 24 with the fork. The coil fork isn't great (but slightly better than they used to be) but the rest of the spec is pretty decent for the price and worth the upgrade imo. Not as good as the Vitus Nucleus but close and locally found. If Giant could just make their Crest Fork in a kids version...it'd be sick. I like that bikes geometry as well. Not slack enough for rowdy trails but definitely fun for everything else. Its great to see a big brand getting closer to the ideal bike. It just needs an air fork and a slacker HTA and it'll be freaking sweet out of the box...assuming they can keep the price down. That 500$-ish mark is the magic number for a lot of families.


An appropriately sized and tuned Giant Crest on the STP 24 would be great! (If they could eliminate some of the bugs they've had with their early production runs.) Even if they kept it under $600 it would represent a great value. I wonder if the STP is doing well enough for them to justify the development cost?

If they could partner with Manitou to equip the bike with the Markhor 26 for under $700, I don't think there is another LBS bike in the price range that could touch it. Manitou already has an option for a light weight top out spring for the fork and it only adds 13mm to the A2C set at 100mm travel. It also slacks the head and seat tube by 0.7 degrees and raises the BB 5mm. Not bad at all. Sure, it isn't a JUnit. But bikes so equipped usually start at about $1200.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

It's annoying that Giant is giving the STP 24 FS such better components than the STP 24. The price difference is just enough to make it too much, and the closest one I can find to me is a solid 3 hour drive.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

bourbonieer said:


> It's annoying that Giant is giving the STP 24 FS such better components than the STP 24. The price difference is just enough to make it too much, and the closest one I can find to me is a solid 3 hour drive.


You can try calling around to the dealers that have them in stock. Some may be willing to ship you the bike. And in todays market, a 3 hour drive for a bike is nothing. Even a kids bike. (I drove 2.5hrs one way to pick up my bike earlier this year.)


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm a fan of rigid. Especially for kids. If their rides are hard enough they need sus, a stock fork on a $600 bike ain't gonna do it either. Looks like a free hub on the base model STP. And the advent cassette and a new chain can be added. I'll admit the benefits of hydros over mechanicals, though.

I just noticed the base is 24x2.6 and the FS is 24x2.2.

I'd defo get the base.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

I was lookin hard at the Co-Op Rev 24 but it seems heavy at 28lbs. I have searched and searched for an approx weight on the Giants but I can’t find one.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

2021 Giant STP Lineup

Comment #6


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

@ilmfat do you think that's still fairly accurate, being several years old? The rigid 24 is probably ~25.5-27lbs?

I'm not very techy with this stuff yet. If I buy a freewheel bike, could I later on put a freehub on to allow me to install a different cassette? Case in point the Polygon. Theoretically $350 right now, the 14-28 doesn't provide enough range so I install a freehub, cassette derailleur and shifter?
I've noticed how most of these kids bikes under a grand use the same low end components wouldn't buying a good frame with decent geometry and upgrading the drivetrain make sense? From what I'm seeing to get even mid level components in a kids bike you're at $1k+.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Thread is from last year. Probably still applies. Rigid build is 24x2.6 tires. Going to better tires and tubeless likely drops close to 2 pounds. Looks like both builds share the same wheels. 28mm internal width even.

Around $500 generally seems to be where the spec goes from freewheel to cassette, with some exceptions on each side.

Rear wheels can be built for around $200. Maybe even less.

Here is a wide range freewheel. Goofy big jump to the 34t, though.









Shimano MegaRange 7 Speed Freewheel 14-34t


The Shimano 7 speed MegaRange freewheel will help anyone needing to get up some of the challenging steep trails that you might otherwise have to get off and walk your bike. If you already have a freewheel installed on your hub, you will need a free wheel removal tool to uninstall it. * 14t-34t




california-ebike.com





As far as geo goes, the only 24" in our crew that's seen much time above green trails is the Orbea Mx24. The old Hotrock A1 from early 2000s did okay on greens and a (very light) blue. But the one black we ride prolly woulda been a bit much for it. The MX24 did great with an RST F1rst air and spawn 24" wheels and tires. Iirc, it isn't modern geo. We didn't do much trail riding until the younger Henchlady was on 24s. Was a bit of a hassle to find the right one and she was only on it for a few months.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bourbonieer said:


> The Cannondale bikes are nice, but it seems like we'd be paying nearly $100 more for a bike using the same components as the Polygon and Trek Precaliber.


We have the Quick 20 (just getting ready to sell it), and it's a nice bike with a free hub that allows for some drivetrain upgrades not easily achievable on bikes with a freewheel. Whether that's worth the extra is a personal choice and you could always re-hub the Polygon's rear wheel...

The first upgrade I made to the Quick was to swap the stock 11-28 cassette for a 12-32, and then when I upgraded another bike to Microshift Advent X, I used the take-off SRAM X5/X7 9 speed drivetrain on the Quick, modified to 8 speed by dropping the 11T sprocket because a 7 speed free hub doesn't have room for a 9 speed cassette.

I just weighed the Quick 20 - 21lbs fitted with a set of crappy plastic platform pedals, Schwalbe 2" Little Joe tires, Spank Spoon Grom grips, and the kickstand which must weigh pushing 1lbs on its own. The 20" version of the Polygon is listed at a similar weight so likely the 24" versions of both bikes are comparable too.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bourbonieer said:


> I've noticed how most of these kids bikes under a grand use the same low end components wouldn't buying a good frame with decent geometry and upgrading the drivetrain make sense? From what I'm seeing to get even mid level components in a kids bike you're at $1k+.


I think I mentioned it in another post but a friend of mine got his daughter the Giant STP 24 with the squishy fork and although the build spec on Giant's site lists and 8 speed Shimano Revoshift and Altus drivetrain the bike he got had the new Microshift Acolyte 8 speed drivetrain on it...


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

rton20s said:


> Upgrade the fork to an air fork from Manitou (J Unit is best, but 26" Markhor will do well) and consider adding a dropper and you're set.


Upgrading to a Junit would require new front wheel for thru-axle. Also a $450 fork on a $600 bike, might as well get a Nukeproof Cub Scout 24 Race....


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bourbonieer said:


> the closest one I can find to me is a solid 3 hour drive.


I had to wait 10 months for my new bike and then had a 3 hour round trip to the dealer to collect it!


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

ilmfat said:


> Looks like a free hub on the base model STP.


It's a 7 speed hub on the base model which is slightly shorter. Per my other post I could only fit 8 sprockets from a 9 speed cassette onto the 7 speed hub on the Cannondale Quick 20.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

chiefsilverback said:


> I had to wait 10 months for my new bike and then had a 3 hour round trip to the dealer to collect it!


I totally get it! We're talking about an 8 year old who might have to learn some patience.

In reality, how much of what I _want_ to get him is vastly different from what he needs? He has never ridden a MTB, this will be his first one. He will mostly ride pavement. That is steering me in the direction of a ~$350 bike. I think the Giant XTC Jr 24 Lite could be a decent starter MTB for him. The price is reasonable and the components seem to be adequate. The gear ratios should give him enough climb and sprint ability (from what I can tell, you've all forgotten more than I know about this stuff) and the brakes are probably just fine. How necessary are discs for a 59lb kid? I stomped trials and woods and pavement in an old school Diamondback Outlook, 18 speed with the old school center pulls and I did just fine.

I recently upgraded from my old Trek 4300 to an Xtrada 7 and I can fully appreciate the hydraulics, Deore M6100, etc. I'm 71.75 inches tall and weigh 244lbs. How far into the weeds am I getting over discs? I'm worried that I might be crossing off bikes that have v brakes for no good reason.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Good for thought: Kids bikes, they are worth a ton of money used, even before the Pamdemic. It's a rental, not a purchase. Do a cost of ownership calculation assuming 70% resale and it gets really affordable. We aren't talking about a BS iPad here.

If you spend like 600$ (Vitus) then sell it EASY for 420$ 2-3yrs later...you pay 90-60$ a year to shred with the kid. That's nothing compared to skiing, football, lacrosse etc etc. And it's fun together on a proper bike that will be versatile. Don't underestimate a kids ability to level up FAST on a bike, if you are riding the good stuff and shuttling (leave the BS climbing for later if possible, it's the opposite of fun).

Also for anyone not trail riding, but hoping to mtb later with their kids...I always recommend a proper freestyle BMX bike like a Fit Misfit for around 370$. Nothing comes close to developing fundamental bike skills like a BMX and they can get years out of them due to being able to ride them small. My 9yro loves his 18" for bigger sends and still loves his old 16" for throwing spins.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

chiefsilverback said:


> Upgrading to a Junit would require new front wheel for thru-axle. Also a $450 fork on a $600 bike, might as well get a Nukeproof Cub Scout 24 Race....


No doubt! I wouldn't bother with a JUnit on a lesser bike that requires replacing or rebuilding a front wheel. We have been completely satisfied with the Markhor 26 on the Vitus Kids 24+ and this is a fork that will work on most of the lower cost, but otherwise decent 24" bikes with a 10mm QR hub. $250 might sound like a lot to spend on a <$600 bike, but if you're kiddo is going to tackle real trails I think it makes a significant difference. And if they are really light, the lightweight spring only costs about $8.

If you have the money up front, I definitely recommend looking at bikes like the Nucleus and Cub Scout. It is almost always cheaper to buy a bike equipped the way you want up front than to build a bike from parts or upgrade your way to the spec you want. We had to take the upgrade route just due to availability.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

@bourbonieer another bike around the same price as the STP 24, if you can find it, is the Haro Flightline 24 Plus DS. It ticks quite a few boxes, even if it wouldn't be my first choice.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

svinyard said:


> Don't underestimate a kids ability to level up FAST on a bike


This is so true. Buying a bike for what they are riding now doesn't account for what they might quickly be riding once they're on a good bike. If you buy for what you think/hope they'll ride then if it doesn't happen see the point about resale value, if it does you don't need to now by another bike. Obviously this has to account for budget.



> leave the BS climbing for later if possible, it's the opposite of fun).


I'm taking my 10 year old for 'enduro' night at Highland Mountain today, 600' climb per lap, he loves it!


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

That haro is compelling.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

rton20s said:


> We have been completely satisfied with the Markhor 26 on the Vitus Kids 24+ and this is a fork that will work on most of the lower cost, but otherwise decent 24" bikes with a 10mm QR hub.


I don't know if there's any difference between the Markhor 26 and the 27.5 other than the lowers (thru-axle vs QR)? I used the 26 to upgrade my old hardtail a couple of years ago, and it's done me well.

The kicker for my 10 year old is that the Cub Scout 26" Race comes with the 27.5 Markhor and costs the same as the 24 Race which gets the Junit, so his younger brother gets a much nicer fork!!!


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Exactly, you are in the "later" part of that comment not with a newer rider . Pretty everyone would endure climbing laps at highland tho I think!


chiefsilverback said:


> I'm taking my 10 year old for 'enduro' night at Highland Mountain today, 600' climb per lap, he loves it!


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

chiefsilverback said:


> I don't know if there's any difference between the Markhor 26 and the 27.5 other than the lowers (thru-axle vs QR)? I used the 26 to upgrade my old hardtail a couple of years ago, and it's done me well.
> 
> The kicker for my 10 year old is that the Cub Scout 26" Race comes with the 27.5 Markhor and costs the same as the 24 Race which gets the Junit, so his younger brother gets a much nicer fork!!!


I believe all of the Markhor forks are essentially the same. It is just a matter of selecting the correct wheel size, steerer tube and hub/axle spacing for your needs. They can all be upgraded to the ABS+ damper and you can swap the top out springs.

The JUnits certainly are on another level. Especially the Pro model! If I could have found a 24" model when they were available for around $300, that is probably what I would have done for our son's bike. We now have hubs with swappable end caps, so if I do see them come available that cheap again we'll probably grab one.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

I checked out the Haro. I think it was oos. I think my options are Co-Op Rev 24+, Cannondale Trail 24/Quick 24, Giant XTC 24 Jr Lite. I like the Cannondale because they have rear hubs as you all have explained, and they’re lighter than the others. I think my kid is in love with the Rev 24.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Strong chance the Quick has a 7 speed freehub body which is shorter than full size and offers no provision to make it 8/9/10 speed. The Rev has 36 spoke wheels versus the Cannondale's 28 hole. The cujo looks compelling.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

bourbonieer said:


> I checked out the Haro. I think it was oos. I think my options are Co-Op Rev 24+, Cannondale Trail 24/Quick 24, Giant XTC 24 Jr Lite. I like the Cannondale because they have rear hubs as you all have explained, and they're lighter than the others. I think my kid is in love with the Rev 24.


Check your local(ish) Haro dealers for stock. I was able to find 2020 models in stock in the bay area in CA. Some dealers might ship, others won't.

I'd skip the CO-OP Rev24+ based on the freehweel. From Cannondale, I would spend the extra $80 for the Cujo 24+ for better brakes, drivetrain and wheels. From Giant, I would still lean toward spending the extra $90 on the STP 24 FS. Even with the extra weight of the fork. There are a lot of better components on the FS model. You might even get lucky and find a Giant dealer who is willing to swap the rigid fork from a standard STP to an FS model at no cost.

So IMHO... Haro Flightline 24 Plus DS for ~$500, Cannondale Cujo 24+ for $580 or Giant STP 24 FS for $590.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Same wheels on either version of the Giant STPs. Rigid bike can be upgraded to Advent drivetrain. Hardtail can be upgraded to 24x2.6 tires (if it'll fit the fork). I'm a tire snob so would likely upgrade the tires to tubeless even if I got the rigid. 

What a great time to be a kid.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

The Liv brand is marketed to the ladies but their 24" builds use neutral colors. There is a chance some shop kid may notice and call it a "girl's bike", but other than that, same as the boys.









STP 24 Liv (2022) | Liv Cycling US


Designed for young riders looking to try out the dirt or pumptrack, this all-new shredder is built on a lightweight, super-strong aluminum frame with quick, res...




www.liv-cycling.com


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

rton20s said:


> No doubt! I wouldn't bother with a JUnit on a lesser bike that requires replacing or rebuilding a front wheel. We have been completely satisfied with the Markhor 26 on the Vitus Kids 24+ and this is a fork that will work on most of the lower cost, but otherwise decent 24" bikes with a 10mm QR hub. $250 might sound like a lot to spend on a <$600 bike, but if you're kiddo is going to tackle real trails I think it makes a significant difference. And if they are really light, the lightweight spring only costs about $8.
> 
> If you have the money up front, I definitely recommend looking at bikes like the Nucleus and Cub Scout. It is almost always cheaper to buy a bike equipped the way you want up front than to build a bike from parts or upgrade your way to the spec you want. We had to take the upgrade route just due to availability.


It's easy and cheap to get a Boost spacer kit so a 100-mm-axle wheel can be converted.

The real snag is that the J-Unit fork only comes with a tapered steerer tube, so that rules out using it with most frames.

Too bad there's no 1-1/8" option, because I use one on my cargo bike and I love how plush and adjustable it is.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Yo, its actually super easy to get a JUnit on to a straight head tube too. Even easier than the boost conversion . We did both to get a JUnit 20" on our Spawn Yama Jama 20", cost us about 25-30$ total in amazon parts.



gramr said:


> It's easy and cheap to get a Boost spacer kit so a 100-mm-axle wheel can be converted.
> 
> The real snag is that the J-Unit fork only comes with a tapered steerer tube, so that rules out using it with most frames.
> 
> Too bad there's no 1-1/8" option, because I use one on my cargo bike and I love how plush and adjustable it is.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

If things are that chunky, getting one of the more hardcore hardtails makes more sense. But that's jumping up to the $1k territory. Maybe even a dual sus for some. It's why the "What does a kid actually need?" is often answered by "What do you actually ride?". We're blessed with lots of buff singletrack round here. And big tires work wonders on the rough stuff for when we are out adventuring. We don't ride very fast compared to some. But faster than others. I'm thinking of picking up a 24+ as a loaner to get friends out riding with their kids.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Their 20" seat tubes could be lower. But the 24s look great. Especially the Precalibur and the Roscoe. The Roscoe would "need" tubeless tape and new tires. The precalibur would be a mean machine with handbuilt wheels and some good tires. Both would probably get a crank upgrade.









Kids' mountain bikes | Trek Bikes







www.trekbikes.com


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

svinyard said:


> Yo, its actually super easy to get a JUnit on to a straight head tube too. Even easier than the boost conversion . We did both to get a JUnit 20" on our Spawn Yama Jama 20", cost us about 25-30$ total in amazon parts.


Cool! I didn't know that was possible. Details?


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

gramr said:


> It's easy and cheap to get a Boost spacer kit so a 100-mm-axle wheel can be converted.


That depends entirely on the hubs. The likelihood of having swapable end caps for hubs on a ~$500 kids bike is pretty slim. Fortunately for us, other circumstances led to us rebuilding the stock wheels with hubs that do have swappable end caps. ?



gramr said:


> The real snag is that the J-Unit fork only comes with a tapered steerer tube, so that rules out using it with most frames.


Depending on the bike, this is cake just like @svinyard said. I've already done the research and since our kiddos Vitus came equipped with a ZS44/28.6 top and ZS44/30 bottom headset all we really need is an EC44/40 bottom to make it work. This will typically add 12-14mm to the stack height. There are even options to use angle headsets up to 2 degrees. Now if the bike is configured for an EC34 headset top and bottom, you might not be able to make it work.



gramr said:


> Too bad there's no 1-1/8" option, because I use one on my cargo bike and I love how plush and adjustable it is.


If you think you need a straight steerer, double check which SHIS standard the head tube is designed for.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

This link has more info (was given all of this just from others who have done it (fitek/RMCDan)








Manitou Machete JUNIT 145mm fork on a Transition Ripcord


Stock fork 100mm travel, 487mm A2C, 467mm A2C @ 20% sag Manitou Machete JUNIT 145mm travel, 500mm A2C, 471mm A2C @ 20% sag At 20% sag, they're nearly identical. Any issues that putting the (IMHO) superior Manitou fork on would cause?




www.mtbr.com







gramr said:


> Cool! I didn't know that was possible. Details?


This is what I used on our 20" Spawn Yama Jama to convert from the straight headtube to allow the tapered fork. It worked really well. I'm 99% sure the Headtube specs on the Spawn are the same (where it matters) on the Ripcord.

Headset lower up (include bearing etc):
Amazon.com : Funn Descend Lower Headset EC44/40 : Sports & Outdoors

Just use a rubber mallet and a piece of wood to lightly go around and tap out the lower cub. I then set the new headsetup and put a 2x4 over it and lightly tapped it in with the mallet.

The stock wheels we had were not boost, but the fork is. So we used the following kit to convert it. All very simple. Hopefully you are getting some Duroc or Stan's Crest wheels (the stans sure are freaking nice and in 32h setup, slay big sends). You'll be able to specify your hub driver and your hub spacing that way too.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07LDSPLMD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

FWIW RMCDan here and Fitek guided me through all this so I take no credit. The new fork and slacker geo has been a godsend tho. Immediately the kid rode harder and didn't go OTB once a ride. Huge improvement. You want the ripcord to slacken out if you can. You can probably get the travel set around 120mm maybe and get it to 66d or maybe even 65.5d. My oldest rides a 65HTA on this fork (Clash) and its nothing but good times up and down. Plus the Ripcord has a fairly long reach, so losing a bit there (due to slackening it) won't hurt. You might slide the seat a bit forward to account for the slacker STA but it should be good to go imo.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

Thanks for the detailed replies.

Ah yes, swapping the headset lower from ZS44 to EC44 is the same thing I did to go from 1-1/8" to tapered on the Load 60.

Unfortunately, that's not going to work on this frame:










No big deal, though; the RST Spex 20 seems like a pretty good option, too.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

I checked out a GT Stomper Pro at Dicks today. Actually seemed decent. The fork compressed for me, but it would probably be irrelevant for a 60lbs kid. The bike had microShift Mezzo rear derailleur and over all build didn’t seem any less than GTs I have seen in a shop. For $499 it competes with the Rev DRT and STP 24. The DRT has hydro discs but weighs a chunky 31lbs. The GT is a bit lighter, but only has a 14-28 freewheel.

If these bikes hold their value I might get a Precaliber or XTC Jr 24 and resell them for $280 next summer if he’s beyond their abilities.


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## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

nevermind


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

ilmfat said:


> Strong chance the Quick has a 7 speed freehub body which is shorter than full size and offers no provision to make it 8/9/10 speed.


it's hackable. I made a quick 20 8 speed using a 9 speed drivetrain, omit the 11t, and use the limit screws to block the last shift on the derailleur, works perfectly and we have 13-42 on the cassette.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

svinyard said:


> Exactly, you are in the "later" part of that comment not with a newer rider . Pretty everyone would endure climbing laps at highland tho I think!


We were cut short at 2 laps, his foot got bounced off the pedal on Hellion and smashed into a couple of rocks! Could have been much worse.

The trails are getting really torn up, big holes on berms right on the riding line, terrible braking bumps etc&#8230; the flow trails are more like tech trails, especially on a hardtail!


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

ilmfat said:


> Their 20" seat tubes could be lower. But the 24s look great. Especially the Precalibur and the Roscoe. The Roscoe would "need" tubeless tape and new tires. The precalibur would be a mean machine with handbuilt wheels and some good tires. Both would probably get a crank upgrade.


The CST Fringe Tires (rebranded as Bontrager) on the Roscoe are actually pretty good for a fast-rolling XC plus tire.

Have been running them tubeless on our 24" Cujo with no problems.


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Awesome. Good to know.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

9 year old out today on a Giant areva. 7 speed freewheel with 24” wheels with 2” tires. It has a 1x which was nice. V brakes. Basic fork with no rebound.
We hit some green trails, then spent time on the pump track, then the small dropoff and the 2nd size. Then some small tabletops then on to the beginner flow tracks.
Her first time on dirt.
Bike certainly not the limiting factor yet. From the way it looked all the blues are gonna be fine as soon as the skills are in place, which will take a couple more trips.
Already taking on the advice here and looking for an xs with 26” wheels


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## ilmfat (Mar 10, 2007)

Kids on big wheels are good for miles and light xc, but not so great for tight twisties or tech. As much as I like to cram em on wagon wheels ASAP, some lighter kids and newer riders can have trouble wrestling the larger wheels and frames. If possible keep the 24" for a season or so after getting the 26. Different tools for different jobs when they're in between wheel sizes.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

I decided to go with the Polygon Relic 24. The weight is a bit higher than I wanted, but I think swapping out some of the steel components for aluminum components will shed a pound or so. The price was hard to beat. I was all set to go with the Cannondale Trail 24, but I could only find it with $125 shipping fees and that out the bike into more than my little man was willing to fork over for it. (He wants to pay for 25%, he’s a little banker.) He’s been saving his money for over a year for something like this and he is very proud that he paid for a quarter of it. The geo on the Polygon looks pretty good, I’d prefer hydro discs, but it has (from what I can gather, looking at Shimano’s dealer manuals) the full HG200-8 group set. If it does have an HG freehub I might put the microShift Acolyte 1x8 12-46 on it so he has a clutch derailleur. (Does anyone else make an 8 speed clutch?) I’m also eying an air fork around $200. He’s only 60lbs so the coil spring Zoom is probably just empty weight.

I’m gonna let him level up on it stock for the rest of the fall. Unless he grows like a weed, he should be in this bike for at least 2 years. The height range goes up to 4-11 (he’s 4-5 right now) but I could see that extending to 5-2/3 depending how comfortable he is on it at that time.

The bike should be here Monday. I’ll get it assembled and see how it works for him. He’s very excited.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

bourbonieer said:


> I decided to go with the Polygon Relic 24&#8230;
> 
> If it does have an HG freehub I might put the microShift Acolyte 1x8 12-46 on it so he has a clutch derailleur&#8230;
> 
> The height range goes up to 4-11 (he's 4-5 right now) but I could see that extending to 5-2/3 depending how comfortable he is on it at that time.


New bike day is always a good day!

Regarding the drivetrain, I think 8, 9, 10, and 11 speed all use the same size freehub body, it's only 7 speed that uses a slightly smaller version. That would mean you're not necessarily locked into an 8 speed drivetrain so you could go for any of the Microshift MTB options.

As for sizing I've found that they very quickly start to look too big for the bike even though they are theoretically in the size range. I wouldn't bank on getting 3-4" more than the max size they suggest.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bourbonieer said:


> I checked out a GT Stomper Pro at Dicks today. Actually seemed decent. The fork compressed for me, but it would probably be irrelevant for a 60lbs kid.


Usually you can remove one spring entirely from lower end coil forks. 
Makes them way more compliant.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

chiefsilverback said:


> As for sizing I've found that they very quickly start to look too big for the bike even though they are theoretically in the size range. I wouldn't bank on getting 3-4" more than the max size they suggest.


 One can hope, right. He'll probably get 2 years out of this and have to move to a S or M 27.5. ?‍♂


slapheadmofo said:


> Usually you can remove one spring entirely from lower end coil forks.
> Makes them way more compliant.


 Hmm a decent idea. I'm going to explore dpi by this to the Zoom forks. They seem pretty basic and cheap.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Yeah we are all about bikes not being too big. But yeah 4'11 is about top for a 24" bike.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

Well, he has been on the bike for 2 days. He is already shredding and already laying it down. I spent 2.5 hours last night readjusting the derailleur. It was the first time I did such a thing. Big thanks to Calvin Jones at Park Tool for his You Tube videos. It helped me get the bike shifting smoother than it did before he dumped it.

I’ll do a more thorough review of the bike (from a noob’s perspective) once my mini-me get some more time on it.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Work with him on laying the bike down on the left side. Once they get into practice it will become second nature. Though, I do have to remind myself sometimes to not lay my bike down on the "expensive" side.


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

rton20s said:


> Work with him on laying the bike down on the left side. Once they get into practice it will become second nature. Though, I do have to remind myself sometimes to not lay my bike down on the "expensive" side.


That was the first lesson we worked on. He dumped it hard trying to take a tight turn too slowly.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

You'll find that a hanger alignment tool (or a buddies) is a godsend


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## bourbonieer (Aug 4, 2021)

I think I’m going to explore putting a derailleur cage on it as well.


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## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

Probably have the only Giant Avera with an internal dropper. Making the hole was the easy part of the install. The xfusion post for some reason wants a fixed end at the handlebar and at the post (in the seat tube). It's an atrocious install. I feel deeply sorry to the cable housing.
Little shredder wanted more gears, a dropper, and while we're at it putting on dhf and dhr. Lacing the new hub in tonight.


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## Entrenador (Oct 8, 2004)

meh meh meh


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

svinyard said:


> You'll find that a hanger alignment tool (or a buddies) is a godsend


Second this. I've got the Park Tool and it makes life so easy&#8230;


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