# Garmin live Strava segment tracking



## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Now several Garmin Edge devices allow for live tracking of Strava segments. 
https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/69751574-Strava-Segments-on-your-Garmin 
My Edge 510 just received firmware update 4.20 which implements this feature on the 510. Previously, the Edge 510 could track Garmin segments; however, it's success rate was terrible in my experience. Only the segments on the least-obstructed routes had a chance of being successfully tracked from start to finish, and even then that chance was small. Forested singletrack trails? Forget about it - pretty much never works to the finish of the segment. After a couple minutes of segment tracking, the Edge will display "Off Segment" and stop the live tracking of it. Now on firmware 4.20 and using live Strava segments, the performance is the same and it has not yet worked. 0 for 5, one of the segments being my completely unobstructed road commute. I had some minor hopes of things improving with the live Strava segments, thinking that Strava's segment matching algorithms could somehow improve the Garmin Edge's success rate. But it has not.

So anyway, I'm just polling to see if anyone else has success or failure stories about live segment tracking on their Garmin Edge devices. For me and my 510, it just doesn't work. I recall that the Strava Android app could repeatedly live track my passage on these segments, so I was hoping that the Garmin version could as well. Unfortunately, the Garmin live segment tracking just can't seem to keep a lock on the segment track. I recognize that it is the Garmin device doing the tracking and its performance has nothing to do with Strava beyond Strava providing the GPS coordinates for the segment. I guess I was just hoping that since there is an apparent collaboration between Garmin and Strava to facilitate live segment tracking that Strava could help Garmin make their units perform the same function that the Strava app seems to have no trouble with.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

I have the 520 and it works great. Super cool to see it notify me of an upcoming segment and then I can attack it if I want. I did not think it was a big deal but after using this feature `a couple rides I really like it.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

My 500 GPS accuracy is pretty lousy & I'd imagine it's the same story with your 510. Hopefully, the 520 with the addition of glonass will be much more accurate.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

510 uses glonass. Accuracy is nearly always reported at <15 ft.


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## Hakka (Jul 7, 2008)

My 510 couldn't track any segments through to the end. Loading the segments onto it made the device very slow to respond to buttons.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Hakka,
My experience has been the same. This weekend I did actually get a successful segment track through to the end. It is the only singletrack trail segment that ever worked back with Garmin segments as well. I've disabled nearly all segments and have only enabled my commute to and from work segment as it should be an easy one to track. All road with no overhead obstruction. I've also enabled two singletrack forest trail climb segments that I ride very often, just to see if behavior changes over time. 
This morning my Edge actually crashed and shut down shortly after starting my commute. That was a first.


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## Hakka (Jul 7, 2008)

I had one segment track to the end, it was a short straight road segment. The garmin registered it as 40 seconds, strava showed it as 39 seconds.

Mine shut down yesterday about 30 minutes into the ride. I reformated the unit and rebuilt the file system, it worked ok today. I've had the problem once before and the reformat fixed it.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

trmn8er said:


> I have the 520 and it works great. Super cool to see it notify me of an upcoming segment and then I can attack it if I want. I did not think it was a big deal but after using this feature `a couple rides I really like it.


trmn8er,
That's interesting, thanks for the feedback. I don't surf the Garmin 520 forum, but the 510 forum has some feedback on riding with buddies with 520s and similar failure rates as the 510s. It will be interesting to note if your success is the norm.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I've thought about doing a file system rebuild because I've heard that suggested before. How to you rebuild it? I always backup everything before each FW update, so I have backup files of all of my settings.


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## Hakka (Jul 7, 2008)

https://support.garmin.com/support/...caseId={e1d0c6c0-52e2-11e4-ef05-000000000000}


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Thanks. The referenced zip file from that link is now dead. I wonder if my backup versions of everything can be used in their place? I'll keep surfing the Garmin forums for another source of any necessary files.


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## Hakka (Jul 7, 2008)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33919776/Edge510_FS.zip

This is the link I used, found it in one of the threads on the garmin forum.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I just found that, too. Thanks.

UPDATE: I did a reformat and put the right stuff back from my backups. I had to go through Garmin Express to get the Strava segments back on. I'll follow up with any change in segment tracking results.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

ewarnerusa said:


> 510 uses glonass. Accuracy is nearly always reported at <15 ft.


Thanks for that, I did not realize this was the case.


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## bloodninja (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm using a 510 and have had little success with segment tracking on the road and even less on singletrack. When it does work, it doesn't seem to be super accurate second by second, which is what you'd really want for it to be more useful than just looking at average speed or something if you're going for a PR.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I am curious if this functionality is related in some way to Strava's "Slide" tool and the global heatmap.

Strava Slide Tool

Strava processes GPS data, and I presume that it is done "live" when using the Strava app. If you've ever looked at raw GPS data from smartphones, it's a horrible mess. Most apps these days do live processing to filter out the junk. Even Garmins do their own version of data processing to correct out the junk. I remember GPS data from Garmins 15 years ago having plenty of errant points a mile or more away from where I was supposed to be, that would need to be deleted before the track made any sense at all.

My theory:

Most folks on Strava these days are on the phone app. Compared to a computer with a wheel sensor (which applies to looking at ANY computer compared to wheel sensor data), GPS-based distances will ALWAYS be an underestimate. Strava segments are based on GPS data, plain and simple. If people are out there using a bunch of less accurate devices (or even if only a few people ride the same trails A LOT with crappy devices), the heatmap data will be biased towards those devices. Worse, if someone set a segment based on data from one of those devices, it will be more difficult to match up with the segment in the field.

Let's say a segment was set with a less accurate device. You take that segment's gps data and send it to your more accurate device (or, it could well be applied the other direction, too, but I think the scenario I outlined is more likely). So now your device, which does not have an algorithm (like the Strava Slide tool) to match your data with the segment's GPS data, has to use its own programming to decide if your current position is "close enough" to the segment to say that you're within reasonable error. It's not unreasonable, then, to see poor results with live segment tracking.

What I am seeing is that Garmin's Edge receivers seem to be leaning more heavily towards road riding as time goes on. Especially with the new features that tend to be getting added in the software.

I really think that the etrex models seem to be better suited to mtb riders who are looking for navigation. The Edge models still hold an advantage when it comes to training, but some of the new etrexes support most of the extra sensors. I think some of the software features on the Edges were designed with road riders in mind, and due to limitations outside Garmin's control (at least in some cases like this one with the live Strava segments), they don't transfer well to mtb applications.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I do think you have a good theory regarding the quality of the original Strava segment data. But the lack of Garmin live segment tracking success also occurs with segments created from Garmin data. I have built new segments on unobstructed roads (my daily commute) using recent activity data from my Edge 510 (GPS + GLONASS enabled) and it still tells me "off segment" when it's tracking me and I'm traveling in a straight line. 

That slide is pretty cool. I notice that the Strava app no longer offers live segment tracking with audible notifications. It used to, and it used to have no problem with the live segment tracking. I'm not sure why they got rid of it since like you mention, most folks use probably use the Strava phone app and not a dedicated Garmin. So it isn't like they could just hand this feature over to Garmin and stop supporting it, although maybe they have and Garmin apparently can't do it right. It makes Strava look bad to have their name stamped on it, I wish it would get fixed. Not that I'm honestly in need of this feature, it is just annoying to be offered a feature that doesn't actually work at all.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I would be curious to see an overlay of a problematic segment as well as the track from a ride where the device was throwing warnings. Both from Strava as well as from Garmin Connect. That would probably answer a lot of questions.

Is there an adjustable threshold/buffer for being "on-segment" (similar to Garmin's "lock on road" option) or is that something that's fixed?

This is one of those features where you early adopters are the guinea pigs, I'm sure. Future firmware updates will modify aspects of this feature, no doubt.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't know anything about adjustment. Here's a link to a post in a Garmin forum thread about this topic. I was offering up some data of mine to another poster there who seems to really know a lot about Garmin technology. He may be a Garmin employee contributing to the forum, but he has never identified himself as such (or denied). I assume he was going to do some overlay stuff, beyond my knowledge and skill level.
https://forums.garmin.com/showthrea...-in-showing-recorded-time&p=715913#post715913


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## K.E.Johnson (Aug 2, 2011)

*Ewarnerusa* and *Hakka, *
can you clarify a bit.

Is the problem with "live segments" (i.e. showing your segment time vs opponent while you ride it) or track doesn't fit with strava segments as well as you finish your ride?

In other words - okay, I can live without tracking segments while you ride (put aside marketing promise that in real life is nothing), but it doesn't make any sence in case strava will not recognize segments at all. 
No sense really.

I am looking into 520 to substitute my old Motorola Defy which I use for riding (and I am happy with it except I cannot fit HRM strap due to old bluetooth version).

I do analyze segments on the trail a lot (just understanding that I can take down a minute on that climb or a minute on another climb etc).

Defy skips segments from time to time (1 time out of 10 or even less frequent - 1 or 2 occasions so far - and mind that is in woods and sometimes raining) - which I though was because of GPS-only 5-year-old receiver with no glonass. 
I can live with that occasional skipping, although it is really annoying (especially if you race), but I assumed that Garmin will perform *better*).

In case it doesn't register segments after a rite it just kills the whole idea. 
I understand 520 might offer a bit difference experience but frankly I don't think it will.

Thanks for replies and happy biking


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Strava works fine in matching the segments after the ride is uploaded. It is the real time live segment tracking on the Garmin that has not been working out for me. Garmin live track said I went off segment during a live tracking but after it has uploaded Strava will correctly report my segment time.


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## K.E.Johnson (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks a lot, it still makes sense to have it (and more sense taking into account they may fix it). 

(although the situation a bit wierd - mobile phone with strava app have no issues and often reports "half way done, 2 minutes ahead, etc).


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

K.E.Johnson said:


> Thanks a lot, it still makes sense to have it (and more sense taking into account they may fix it).
> 
> (although the situation a bit wierd - mobile phone with strava app have no issues and often reports "half way done, 2 minutes ahead, etc).


Read my previous posts about the Strava Slide Tool and live segment matching on a Garmin. It's not a "weird" situation. It makes complete sense to me. Now whether that's ACTUALLY what's going on is unclear. We would need to see an overlay of a segment from Strava along with a raw GPS track from a Garmin device. The Garmin device then has to match the segment with the actual track, and since it's using a different algorithm to do that matching than Strava uses, I can see its cutoff being different than Strava's cutoff.


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## K.E.Johnson (Aug 2, 2011)

Harold, 
I read your post and it does make sense (although I think processing is done on a server side - I can try and check some tracks from the same ride and GPS device done by 2 different apps at the same time (Strava and Sportstracker). 

Anyway, as you pointed out - it is just a guess and you don't know the actual reason. 

But it is still "wierd" situation (and yes, I sort of realize it is not wierd for a garmin to have situations like that when new device/ functionality announced). 
But for most people when one advertizes a function (and especially make the function a differentiator, yelling "first on the market") - it does make sence (a lot of sence) to make a bit of testing to confirm it works. 

And when you do something like segments - it is natural to assume that bikers can actually ride on the left side or right side of the trail (which might be 10-15 feet wide), resulting to 10-15 feet difference of actual position - and therefore up to 20-25 (!) feet difference of GPS position (just summed up width and accuracy). So it is natural to set tolerance at least as high as that (ideally - make a setting to turn it on/ off/ enter tolerance). 
Anyway - we see a result of segments (which is negativeat least for 510 as far as I understand). 

----------------
All, 
can you answer more questions: 
1. Segment screen 

- is it possible to turn off segment start notification and "segment screen" (which is well seen on DC's video for live segs) that is shown when you're in the segment, but still have some occasional updates on how you go (just like in strava android app - voice says "half segment finished, you're 2 minutes below your best")? 
- is it possible to set up a custom field showing your segment among other data? 
- is it possible to set up a heart rate/ speed showing on your segment screen? 

The whole idea is that I have long segments sometimes (30 minutes part of the XC lap in the wood) - and it is nice to get updates that I am ahead of my best in the middle of it (I still have time to improve/ relax), but I want to see my heart rate at least and speed. 

2. Multi-level segments. Do I understand it right that it is not supported? 

I have big segments (hilly part of the lap, flat part of the lap for example - and I can combine them from time to time (doing only hilly or full laps and still comparing results) - and public segments for each climb. 
Do I understand it right that garmin will track only one segment on time (the one that started earlier)? 

Thanks again,


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## SimonNI (Jan 12, 2015)

Did this update last week and been out for a few rides so far. Feel totally let down and not what I was hoped for. 

The problem I'm having is, My 510 picks up a trail but its not thr one I want to do when I cycle past it looking to head down the next one it won't change onto it and comes up off segment off segment resulting in no time for the trail I just did. Is there any fix for this or just un-star them all and forget about it? 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

K.E.Johnson said:


> Harold,
> I read your post and it does make sense (although I think processing is done on a server side - I can try and check some tracks from the same ride and GPS device done by 2 different apps at the same time (Strava and Sportstracker).


Some stuff is handled server side and some HAS to happen locally. There's just no way around that.

When you upload your track, segment matching is handled server side, obviously. When you're actively riding and your device tells you whether you're on a nearby segment or not, that HAS to be done locally. My point is that the Strava app on your phone is doing it differently than your Garmin.



> And when you do something like segments - it is natural to assume that bikers can actually ride on the left side or right side of the trail (which might be 10-15 feet wide), resulting to 10-15 feet difference of actual position - and therefore up to 20-25 (!) feet difference of GPS position (just summed up width and accuracy). So it is natural to set tolerance at least as high as that (ideally - make a setting to turn it on/ off/ enter tolerance).
> Anyway - we see a result of segments (which is negativeat least for 510 as far as I understand).


I think this explanation is a good example of why I think Garmin is introducing features without really considering mountain biker use of them. Where I live, public land can be very limited in some areas. In those areas, trail density can be rather high, and 20-25ft can put you onto a different trail entirely. But GPS accuracy doesn't work quite the way you describe. Each point has its own accuracy, and the accuracy reported on the device is pretty bunk, actually. When it gives you an accuracy number (say, 10ft), that's a probability. It doesn't mean that it's telling you that you are 10ft from where you are. It might be spot on. It's just saying that the confidence level in that position is lower than, say, if it said the accuracy was 3ft.

Turn on your GPS and run a track, while leaving it stationary for an hour. When you finish, download the data and convert it from a track to point data. You'll see a cluster of points. Density of those points will be higher at the actual location, and less dense the further away you get.


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## mackdhagen (Jun 17, 2011)

May be already covered or a dumb question but the OP said it works for the whole Edge suite. Does this include the older Edge 500? I'd say about 50%++ of the guys i ride with use it so just curious if anyone knew whether live tracking worked with the 500 too.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mackdhagen said:


> May be already covered or a dumb question but the OP said it works for the whole Edge suite. Does this include the older Edge 500? I'd say about 50%++ of the guys i ride with use it so just curious if anyone knew whether live tracking worked with the 500 too.


No, not the Edge 500, or the 305 or the 705 or any of those older ones.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Just to get some more info in the poll, here is one on the success of your Garmin at segment tracking. Someone from the Garmin forums started it.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1MtBzTsLT1CFv9zDBp34M675ZuoVfH2Jq7iCkGaWkZT8/viewform?c=0&w=1


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I forgot to disable the segments on the warmup lap for Sundays race. It kept binging and telling me I was starting and going off segment all the time.

It did a segment nicely the other day though, it started one segment, I cancelled it as it wasn't the one I was after and it picked up on the next one which was a sub-segment of the larger cancelled segment.

Just need to do some more testing as I only want to pace myself against my own segment times and am not looking for KoM's.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

You can go into each segment individually and go into "leaderboard". From there you can select which time is your target time: KOM, PR, or opponent. I think opponent is the next fastest time on the leaderboard or something.


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## SimonNI (Jan 12, 2015)

Does anyone know if I hit the red X to cancel a trail after its picked it up. Will it still record a time on it anyway? 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Yes. Strava treats your data like it always has, regardless of how your Garmin behaved.


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## SimonNI (Jan 12, 2015)

ewarnerusa said:


> Yes. Strava treats your data like it always has, regardless of how your Garmin behaved.


Thanks for the super fast reply.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ewarnerusa said:


> You can go into each segment individually and go into "leaderboard". From there you can select which time is your target time: KOM, PR, or opponent. I think opponent is the next fastest time on the leaderboard or something.


Looks like opponent is anyone you're following on Strava that's done the segment.


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## Revolver1529 (Oct 5, 2009)

Since I've updated my 510 to the latest version, the buttons seem slow to respond and it's shut down on several occasions while doing a segment. I think the segment thing is cool, but not cool enough to deal with my unit shutting down during a ride,


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## csgaraglino (May 20, 2012)

I'm running a Edge 1000, and so far, no issues with the Strava Segments? 


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

*Live Strava Segments work on the Edge 510 w/ FW 4.40*

New firmeware update to 4.40 for the Edge 510 and so far the live segment tracking success rate has improved. 


> Changes made from version 4.30 to 4.40:
> Fixed an issue causing the Auto Pause feature to incorrectly pause the timer when only using GPS as a speed source.
> Improved segment tracking performance to reduce the occurrence of incorrect off segment detection.


EDIT January 15, 2016: I would say that the firmware 4.40 has essentially fixed live Strava segment tracking on the Edge 510. I have not experienced a single "off segment" warning since the update, except for when it was entirely appropriate. If you didn't like it before, you still won't like it now. But I would say that it works as advertised.


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