# Sticky  The *New* Official Weight Weenies F.A.Q



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

First, thanks to *Trevor!* for creating the original Weight Weenie FAQ, however it has been over ten years since it was created, so I figured it was time for a new one.

_Note_: I reference various manufacturers and sites that I feel are relevant to the discussion. This is not meant as a promotion of any given brand or property. I am simply referring to things that I'm aware of personally.

If I've omitted a resource, please contact me.
If you have other tips, please share them.
If I'm made an error, please let me know. 

I'll start with some common questions that get asked in the Weight Weenies subforum:


_*What is a Weight Weenie (WW)?*_

A WW is someone who is concerned with the overall weight of their bike. Practitioners range from folks who just want to drop a bit of weight from their bike, to people who obsess over every part.
Typically the goal is to retain performance, but shed weight. This is not always possible though, or may only be possible at a significant price.

My personal philosophy is to ensure my updated bike is still fully "rideable" (apparently that's not a word), the way I want to ride it, on its intended terrain.  ​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

_*Is my bike heavy? Do you have examples of some light bikes?*_

First off, it's all relative. In general, a 26" bike will be lighter than a 650b, which in turn is typically lighter than a 29er. Also the discipline, or intended use of the bike makes a huge difference: an XC Race bike will be on the light end, through to a pure downhill bike that can weigh far more. Frame size (small to XL) and suspension (fully rigid to full suspension) also have a big influence on the total weight.

I can offer some recent examples from this subforum though of several types:

*Acko* has built a crazy-light fully rigid SS bike:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weeni...lb-one9-rdo-marathon-race-machine-939111.html

*Andrepsz* has a light Scott Spark (full-suspension 69er - mixed wheels):
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/69er-scott-spark-21lbs-849097.html

*Yellowr6* has built a light 26" hardtail Stumpjumper :
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/my-2009-sworks-stumpjumper-ht-build-947181.html

I'm working on a 29er hardtail XC bike:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/new-build-2013-s-works-stumpjumper-ht-935429.html

...and people continue to post to this thread to share light bikes of various types:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/post-your-light-weight-bikes-426557.html
​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

_*What's the best way to lose weight on a bike? *_

This question comes up a lot. "Best" could mean losing the most weight, or it could mean losing weight without spending too much money. Below are some common ideas, along with the typical cost:
_$ = Inexpensive per gram of weight lost
$$ = Moderately Expensive per gram of weight lost
$$$ = Expensive per gram of weight lost_

*Move to 1X Gearing ($) *

"1X" simply means a single chainring up front, instead of the 2 or 3 your bike came with. By moving to this setup, you can remove the front shifter, front derailleur, and at least one chainring from your bike for significant weight savings. A lot of bikes come in this flavour from the factory if they include SRAM's XX1 system, or Shimano's new M9000 platform.

To modify an existing 2X or 3X setup, you'll want to find a single chainring solution. The often have higher or "tall" teeth to help keep the chain on, as there's no longer a front derailleur in play. Firms like Raceface, Wolftooth, Absolutely Black and others offer single chainring solutions. Some bolt to your spider, while others are "spiderless" to shed even more weight.

Some manufacturers will recommend a clutched rear derailleur with their 1X rings. The idea here is that the clutch makes for better chain retention - again because there is no longer a front derailleur to keep the chain on. Shimano calls their clutch system "Shadow Plus", while SRAM's clutched rear derailleurs are called "Type 2". I solicited feedback from this forum to see if folks have been fine with a regular, or non-clutched rear derailleur and results were mixed:
http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...have-you-been-fine-without-clutch-949711.html








_Here's an example of a spiderless 1X chainring, from Wolftooth. This particular one has 34 teeth (as indicated by 34T in the photo)._

In terms of actual gearing, you'll want to carefully choose an appropriate number of teeth for the single chainring. Simple rule: more teeth mean higher top end speed, but tougher climbing. On the low end, you can find 28T rings which will give you more of the "granny side", but you may spin out (run out of gears) in higher speed situations, like big downhills. On the other side you can go for 34T or more, but you had better have strong, strong legs. As a tradeoff, 32T is probably doable for most people in most conditions.

Here's a link to Sheldon Brown's gear calculator which is very helpful in determining what to choose for your front chainring. Start by calculating the gear ratios you have now (with 2X or 3X), and then consider which gears you are in most when on the trail. Then figure which range makes the most sense for you:
Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator


*Change Your Grips ($) *

A nice, inexpensive way to shed weight can be with grips, specifically foam-based ones. Currently the lightest I'm aware of are LIzardskins DSPs @ 12.5g each. Also light are ESI's silocon grips. While you won't be saving a ton of net weight, this change won't cost you much, and is among the best $ per gram things to implement.








_A comparison of the 2 lightest grips available currently: ESI's Racer's Edge top, Lizardskins DSP bottom. Thanks to *RS VR6* for the pic._


*Upgrade Your Wheelset ($$ - $$$) *

This can be pricey, but it is one of the most noticeable things you can do in terms of savings weight. You are constantly spinning your wheels, and less rotational mass is something you'll feel right away. Too many brands to give specifics, but carbon rims are generally going to be the lightest available. However, some wheelsets have a rider weight limitation, so be certain to check that before purchasing.

An alternative that may be cheaper, or at least give you exactly what you want, is to build up a wheelset from a selection of rims, spokes, nipples and hubs. MTBR has a subforum specific to Wheels that is a great resource: Wheels and Tires - Mtbr.com

While we're on it, here's an ultra-lite custom-built wheelset by Ole: 
[Thread suggested by* lRalphl*]

http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/1062g-29-xc-race-wheels-947446.html

​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Tires ($$) *

Some of the lighter tires can get very pricey, but $/gram is in the midrange for this type of upgrade. However, while most WW parts can give you identical performance at lighter weight, there's typically a tradeoff with tires. 
To shed weight in this area, you are typically trading away puncture resistance and/or grip (and width) - there's no free ride here. However, there are cases where you can find lighter tires than your existing ones, with virtually no negatives. I'd say most people can save 100-200g in this area without having to give up grip & puncture resistance. 
The lightest 29er tires I'm aware of are Schwalbe's Furious Freds, claimed at ~360g each. (My weights of these are typically in the 380g region). Make no mistake though that you are throwing away puncture resistance, and the tread is certainly not for even moist conditions. 








_The Schwalbe Furious Fred tire. I'm warning you now - it is not for everyone, and only for limited conditions._

As another resource, there's a great thread on 29er Tire Weights that is contributed to frequently. It's a great way to see actual weights of a given tire:
[Thanks to* muntos* for the thread suggestion.]

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/29er-tire-weight-list-532607.html

*Go Tubeless ($) *

This is cheap to do, but probably not the massive weight loss some people assume. The gist is that you no longer use inner tubes (which can weigh as much as 150-200g each), but instead use rim tape, tubeless valves, and fluid to seal the tire and rim. 
Stan's yellow tape will be about 7g for one layer on a 29er wheel, so at 14g this isn't a concern. However it would not be uncommon to add 100g worth of sealing fluid (there are several out there, Stan's, Orange Seal, etc). So when the valve weight is added, you'll likely save a bit here, but not a ton. 
While often considered a weight weenie thing, it is really about preventing pinch flats, as you can run far lower tire pressures when tubeless. 

_Tip: _Some people have used Scotch's 8898 "strapping tape" as a less expensive alternative to Stan's tape. It is apparently thinner, so may need 2 wraps around the rim as opposed to 1. Gorilla tape is also popular, and used often in "ghetto tubeless" situations:






_*What about UST wheels and tires? *_

"UST" is the Mavic brand for a true tubeless system. UST rims, such as the popular Mavic SLR (and newest SL) have sealed rims by default, so no tape is required. Also, when matched with a true UST tire, technically no fluid is required to make the seal. 
However, UST rims and especially tires are heavier than non-UST equivalents, and thus the fluid and rim tape savings are more than offset. Besides, using fluid has the added advantage of saving you from smaller punctures - at least until you can limp home. So often UST users will still have fluid in their tires. 

In the end, UST doesn't amount to weight savings. 

*Bars, Seatpost, Stem ($$$) *

With this category, we get into what I call "death by a thousand cuts". Everything can be lighter, but it starts to cost you quite a bit. 

You will surely be able to lose weight with upgraded carbon bars, seatposts, and even carbon stems (although alloy stems are still more common), but the $/gram for this area is high. All the big manufactures like Easton, Enve, Ritchey offer light components here, however for really light it seems to be dominated by European boutique manufacturers. Brands like Schmolke, MCFK, AX Lightness, Extralite and others have quality products but with astounding prices.








_An example of a super-lightweight handlebar, in this case from Schmolke._


*Seatpost Collar/Binder/Clamp ($$ -$$$)*
[Topic Suggested by *Cuddly**Toast*]

This can be an expensive one with moderate savings, but yet another area that adds up. On the extreme end of the scale, in both price and low-weight is this carbon strap offering from MCFK at an incredible 5g - although I haven't used this myself (yet):








_MCFK seatpost clamp in UD carbon._



​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Fork ($$-$$$) *

This is similar to the tire scenario, in that weight loss in this area typically comes at a cost, which amounts to stiffness and suspension. You can certainly go lighter by changing from a 120mm to a 90mm suspension fork, but that will have quite the effect on your ride and may counteract the bike's intended terrain. 

Things that will help in the weight department will be a carbon steerer, which while it shouldn't give a ride penalty (might arguably be stiffer) it will cost more. QR (quick release) front dropouts will typically be a bit lighter, but certainly less stiff than a 15mm thru axle, which is also more common. 

A "Lefty" fork (from Cannondale) is a popular choice for WWs. It has a single leg design that looks a bit funky, but certainly sheds a good bit of weight over the traditional double-stanchion fork design. Just be aware that you'll require a special front hub for your wheel.

As with tires above, it's all about tradeoffs here.








_The Cannondale Lefty fork._



*Pedals ($$-$$$) *

This is often a personal preference issue as much as anything. If clippped in, do you like the Shimano SPD cleats, are will you try something else? Maybe you don't like being clippped in at all, and want to use flat platforms. The lightest pedals I'm aware of are the Crank Bros Eggbeater 11s, which are claimed at 174g for the pair. Some people hate them. Some people have found them unreliable. I have had a pair for several seasons without issue, but know that you will be using a different cleat style if you opt for them. 

In any event, stick with pedals you like, and that are appropriate for the type of riding you do, and cleat that you find convenient.








_Crank Bros Eggbeater 11 pedals. Very light, but perhaps not for everybody. (Not a fan of the gold accents myself.)_



*Shifting & Brakes ($$$) *

Not that many options in this area, and to get really light you'll need to spend a lot of money unfortunately. For shifting, you pretty much have SRAM and Shimano to choose from. Both have lightweight offerings (XX1 and XTR respectively), so pick whatever you prefer. In many cases though, dropping down a component level, such as XT in the case of Shimano, can give you pretty much the same performance for just a bit heavier. 

Likewise with brakes, you have the usual players of SRAM and Shimano. However you might also consider Magura and Formula who offer very light weight packages, but at extreme cost. I'm not familiar first-hand with Hope brakes, but have heard good things.

alexdi has created a handy list of brake weights:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

*Shifting & Brakes: Hoses & Cables ($$)*
[Topic suggested by *CuddlyToast*]

There are some savings to be had by changing your brake hoses (if hydraulic), and your shifter casing. These aren't crazy expensive in absolute terms, but also not the most savings you can obtain with a single change, thus putting these mods into the "moderate" cost camp.

Jagwire and Nokon are providers here. In terms of their "lower end" casing, there's is just a small amount of weight to be saved. As an example below, see a comparison between more or less equal segments (~163cm) of both:








_Stock (for XTR) Shimano shifter housing @ 54g.








Jagwire "Pro" shifter housing @ 50g.

_They also offer a funky-looking Elite version made up of segmented links which can offer decent weight savings over the solid tube versions above:








_Jagwire "Elite" in black._

 
Finally - although I haven't used it myself - there is a firm called PowerCordz that offers an alternative to the typical metal shifter cables we use. These are a synthetic fibre that is claimed to be lighter than typical shifter cables:







_Powercordz shifter cable.
_

*Brake Rotors ($-$$$) *

First off, I see a lot of bikes that are "overbraked". I'm 180 lbs kitted up, and for my XC trails, I have more than enough braking power with a 140mm brake on the rear, and a 160mm brake on the front. I'm just adding needless weight if I used 160 and 180mm combination. I suspect a fair amount of people are in the overbraked category. 

The other thing to consider are brake adapters. For example, on my current frame, the brake will fit a 140mm rotor on the rear without an adapter - that is the "native" size. If I move to a 160mm rotor in the rear, not only am I adding rotor weight, but I have to add the adapter. So consider the double-whammy that can happen in this case. 

In terms of brake rotor styles, this category is unique because you can get light rotors for cheap, right up to ridiculous carbon ones: 
​


[*=left]On the inexpensive side, both Ashima and KCNC offer light steel rotors. They have a ton of cutouts, so may not be appropriate for all riding types, especially downhill.  
[*=left] On the midrange side and higher you can opt for Titanium rotors that are yet again lighter, but may be noisy - I bought a pair from Carver myself, but haven't tested them yet. Absolute Black may also offer some soon. 
[*=left]On the crazy expensive end of the scale, you have Magnesium Matrix rotors, and Carbon rotors. These are about as light as you can get, but at least in terms of Kettle's Carbon rotors which I've used for 1.5 seasons, they aren't quite ready for prime time in my opinion. 








_The Ashima Ai2 rotor - one of the lighter, and relatively inexpensive options out there._

Here's another reference on rotors, which is a bit dated, but it nicely lists some alternatives out there and at least you get a sense of the relative weights:
FAQLoad - Lightweight disc brake rotors

​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Frames ($$$) *

We get people posting in this WW subforum all the time that want to lighten a bike with a heavy frame. Regardless of other changes you make, a heavy frame will kill you in terms of weight. Before you opt for an expensive new frame though, it is probably worth making a few other changes first. You may find you are pleased with the weight after a wheelset upgrade. In addition, any lighter bars, wheels, etc can easily be moved to a new frame later, if you ultimately decide to go that route.
If you do opt for a new frame, the simple rule is that carbon will be lighter than aluminum. (Titanium frames are out there, but far less common, and not inexpensive either.) However the most important thing of course is to (1) ensure the sizing/geometry fits you, and (2) you buy a frame appropriate for the type of riding you do. 

Bottom line though, it is an expensive proposition. 
 

*Bolts ($$$) *
This is easy to do, not crazy expensive in absolute terms, but probably the most expensive in $/gram. The idea is to swap out your existing bolts and hardware with lighter equivalents. 

Here's a quick rundown: ​


[*=left]Titanium (Ti) bolts are lighter than steel, and can be used anywhere. A common application is to use them to attach your brake rotors, as it requires 6 bolts. They are expensive.  
[*=left]Aluminum is even lighter than Ti, but far softer, and thus aren't suggested for high-stress areas. You can also easily strip the heads of these bolts. I'd relegate them to derailleur adjustment and bottle cage bolts, but I think some people have used them elsewhere.  
[*=left]Nylon bolts are super cheap. Perfect replacement for bottle cage bolts as well, but can't be used anywhere else that I'm aware of. 

Here are some great scale shots from *XC71* that show M5 x 20mm bolt weights across various material types:








_Steel: 4.2g_








_Titanium: 2.1g_








_Aluminum__: 1__.4__g_








_Carbon Fibre: 0.7g_








_Nylon: 0.5g
_
I have found Ti bolts from Toronto Cycles in the past, and a firm called ProTi also offers complete kits. I use something called Silicone "Tidds" which are just fillers for unused cage bolts, which total 1g for 4 of them.

Here's another viewpoint on bolt tuning in general:
FAQLoad - Bolt Tuning - replacing heavy steel bolts with titanium, aluminum and carbon fiber


*QRs, Thru Bolts, Thru Axles ($$$) *

Quite a wide range of cost on these, but like bars, stems & seatposts, to get super-light you have to spend a lot of money. 
Tune makes several types of these, some surprisingly light, but surprisingly expensive. Extralite has some light axle solutions as well that I know of. 
Simply put, there is a bit of weight to be saved here, but the $/gram is very high.

Here's some examples for the 15mm thru-axle, specifically Rockshox in this case. The first photo is the stock solution, followed by Tune's DC15, then an Extralite hex-only:








_The stock 15mm solution from Rockshox @ 70g. Sorry for the blurry pic._









_Tune's offering @ 43g, and it retains the quick release function._








_Extralite's Blacklock @ a claimed 26.7g, but requires a hex wrench to remove._

*Saddles ($-$$$) *

There's a very wide range of cost for saddles, but more than any other component, this is about personal preference. If a saddle shape isn't comfortable for you, nothing else matters. 
A common, inexpensive, and very light solution is to grab a fully-carbon saddle from eBay. These weigh around 110g, and cost only about $40. That's among the best $/gram deals in WW world. 
While the lack of padding may scare you, I'd point out that even expensive padded saddles don't offer much cushioning, and as mentioned the shape is the most important thing. In addition, fully carbon saddles incorporate some flex naturally, which helps greatly with comfort. 
On the high end, you can spend hundreds on other full carbon saddles, such as one from MCFK that is a measly 70g. In addition, there are countless saddle options out there, but truly light ones will typically cost quite a bit.

*Michael8V8* has written a great post ccomparing several inexpensive carbon saddles here.

_Tips_: 
​


[*=left]Beware of carbon rails on light saddles. They are often oval shaped (instead of round) and thus your seatpost clamping mechanism may not work with them. Double-check before buying.  
[*=left]If you find a saddle that you absolutely love, buy a second one as a spare in case the manufacturer discontinues them.  








_A typical all-carbon saddle sold on eBay._
​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Cassette ($$-$$$) 
*
The lightest, practical cassette that I'm aware of is SRAM's XX, at 208g. It is a 10-speed, but 11-speed equivalents are obviously heavier. Certainly if you want 11 gears, this doesn't apply to you.This cassette has a massive drawback though, in that the largest cog is made from aluminum, and will wear far earlier than the rest of the cassette. Although SRAM initially claimed otherwise, you cannot just replace that cog. A firm called ARI does sell a replacement cog, but it is expensive:
Upgrade your XX Cassette with ARI's replacement 36, 38, and 39t cogs

The only redeeming thing about this cassette is that the price has come down quite a bit since SRAMs XX1 system came out. 

Shimano's 10-speed XTR cassette is light, but I believe 60-70g heavier, and their latest 11-speed is heavier again. As mentioned though, XX1 and the new M9000 are both great, light solutions for 11-speed riders. 

All-aluminum cassettes, such as from Recon are super-light, but simply not practical - I'd suggest avoiding them. 

Cost per gram of savings in this area is pretty high. 



*Chain ($$*) 

Lightest chain I'm aware of is from KMC, specifically their SL line. People tend to forget the chain is well over 250g in most cases. The aforementioned KMC is 237g for the 10-speed adjusted to the required length, so not a ton of savings, and a relatively high $/gram. I've used several of these in the past without issue - I am pleased with the wear. 








_Shot of the KMC 11-speed chain (X11SL DLC), in a variety of colours._



*Cranks ($$$) *
Same old story here. Carbon will be lightest, and most expensive. I'm partial (and probably biased) to Specialized cranks, but there are many options out there. I would strongly recommend crank boots if you go this route, and Raceface's offering only adds about 17g, but may save you from some nasty dings and rock hits. 

*Chainstay Protection ($)*
This is a nice inexpensive one. Some bikes come with clamp on chainstay protection that is pretty heavy, and often overkill. One nice idea that people do is use an old tube, and ziptie it on, but that's also fairly heavy. A superlight option can be to use "helicopter tape" (from 3M) and wrap that around. It's just a few grams, and you can buy a big roll of it pretty cheaply. Might not always look great though.

From the pics below you can see a fairly big difference in weights:







_Stock, plastic protector from a 2011 S-Works Epic 29er @ 43g.
_








_A sheet of 3M "helicopter" tape @ 2g - you'll probably use a few sheets but that's still a lot of weight savings._








_Here's a shot of 3M tape used as a chainstay protector. Light, and inexpensive, but a bit ugly IMO._

*Misc - The Backpack* *($$)*
[Topic suggested by *Yellowr6*]

I realized I was carrying around a lot of extra, mostly useless stuff in my pack, so thought I'd review and revamp all of it. There's no perfect solution here, and by definition the varying types of bolt heads on your bike will dictate which tools you want. Here's a thread that offers some ideas to shed weight off of your back:

My Heavy Pack (Alternate Title: I'm Stupid)

_Tip:_ Even though you may be running a tubeless setup with puncture-filling fluid (like Stan's, Orange Seal, etc), you should still pack a tube with you. The fluid won't help you on a large puncture, or a sidewall cut.
 
​


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

[Reserved #7]*

What are the advantages to a light bike? Is it better?*

[This is a really loaded question - working on this now.]


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

[Reserved #8.]

Idea: Scale shots of various components, similar to the 29er tire weight list? (as per muntos)

Idea: Paint removal from frame, drilling holes to reduce weight? (A bit retro, as per CuddlyToast)


----------



## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

Great work!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

moefosho said:


> Great work!


Thanks moefosho. You've been a great resource here, so be sure to let me know if I've missed something. For example, just realized I didn't touch on chainstay protectors, so will do so now.


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

WOW! This is awesome. TY phlegm. Now we newbie won't have to post up the same questions asking for help. This is all in "one shop stop". Don't forget about your "heavy pack" posting. i found that very helpful. And don't forget about gears (clothing/helmet/shoes/gloves).

http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/my-heavy-pack-alternate-title-im-stupid-938316.html


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

yea, about 4 months ago, i had no clue what I'm doing. This past weekend, was at barnes and noble looking at some MTB magazine waiting for the wife. Flipping some pages to light weight build and everything make sense. Well, maybe 80%.


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

phlegm said:


> My personal philosophy is to ensure my updated bike is still fully "rideable", the way I want to ride it, on its intended terrain.
> [/FONT]​


Totally agreed. I got my 09 SW HT down to 16.4#. Maybe i could get it under 16 but it is fully rideable, the way i want to ride it. My answer is no. I had to change out the saddle, disc, pedals and tires. Now it is at 17.4#. Time to have some fun!


----------



## lRaphl (May 26, 2007)

Great post! If you have time to spare, it would be interesting to see some information about light wheelset build tricks. Like hubs and spokes choices, lightest rims available, etc. There are some great post about really light wheel builds like this one:

1062g 29" XC race wheels 

Thanks again for your great post!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yellowr6 said:


> WOW! This is awesome. TY phlegm. Now we newbie won't have to post up the same questions asking for help. This is all in "one shop stop". Don't forget about your "heavy pack" posting. i found that very helpful. And don't forget about gears (clothing/helmet/shoes/gloves).
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/my-heavy-pack-alternate-title-im-stupid-938316.html


Ah, good idea - I can certainly reference that. I think I'll also try to add some photos to help illustrate various points.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

lRaphl said:


> Great post! If you have time to spare, it would be interesting to see some information about light wheelset build tricks. Like hubs and spokes choices, lightest rims available, etc. There are some great post about really light wheel builds like this one:
> 
> 1062g 29" XC race wheels
> 
> Thanks again for your great post!


Thanks for the comments and input. Great idea about referencing other areas of expertise. Wheel-building isn't my deal, but that thread and others is a great idea. Thx!


----------



## CuddlyToast (Oct 30, 2013)

One thing worth noting, (maybe?) is cables and housing? nokon/jagwire elite are typically 15-20% lighter than their alternatives... you can get crazy with some Ti cables too.

Also, on all of my Santa Cruz bikes, you can save about 40-50gs on the seat post collar. Not the most savings, but still, death by a 1000x paper cuts and such.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

CuddlyToast said:


> One thing worth noting, (maybe?) is cables and housing? nokon/jagwire elite are typically 15-20% lighter than their alternatives... you can get crazy with some Ti cables too.
> 
> Also, on all of my Santa Cruz bikes, you can save about 40-50gs on the seat post collar. Not the most savings, but still, death by a 1000x paper cuts and such.


Great points Toast - I missed both of those. I'll be making quite a few edits over the next few days and will include all of this stuff - cheers!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

lRaphl said:


> Great post! If you have time to spare, it would be interesting to see some information about light wheelset build tricks. Like hubs and spokes choices, lightest rims available, etc. There are some great post about really light wheel builds like this one:
> 
> 1062g 29" XC race wheels
> 
> Thanks again for your great post!


Added your idea re Ole's crazy-light wheelset, although I don't know too much about wheelbuilding myself. I've asked Ole to pitch in, and if you have a list of light components, feel fee to share. Thx for the suggestion.


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

CuddlyToast said:


> One thing worth noting, (maybe?) is cables and housing? nokon/jagwire elite are typically 15-20% lighter than their alternatives... you can get crazy with some Ti cables too.


great point. i changed out my housing/cable to jagwire elite and saved 2 oz or 50g. I was shocked!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yellowr6 said:


> great point. i changed out my housing/cable to haywire elite and saved 2 oz or 50g. I was shocked!


I'm assuming the "haywire" is an autocorrect issue. Not sure I'd like to rely on that brand name.


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

phlegm said:


> I'm assuming the "haywire" is an autocorrect issue. Not sure I'd like to rely on that brand name.


Lol. Yes. Jagwire. Stupid autocorrect sometime.


----------



## kind (Nov 1, 2008)

what about a list of complete factory bikes that weigh less then 25lbs by price range. ok you got me I am lazy and wanted to know. lol


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yellowr6 said:


> Lol. Yes. Jaywire. Stupid autocorrect sometime.


Now, you did this last one on purpose, right.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

kind said:


> what about a list of complete factory bikes that weigh less then 25lbs by price range. ok you got me I am lazy and wanted to know. lol


That's a decent idea, but impossible for me to implement. Too hard to get reliable bike weight data. Would be really handy though.


----------



## Yellowr6 (Mar 30, 2011)

phlegm said:


> Now, you did this last one on purpose, right.


Haha.


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

That's some really great info! ...and thanks for the reference!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

CuddlyToast said:


> One thing worth noting, (maybe?) is cables and housing? nokon/jagwire elite are typically 15-20% lighter than their alternatives... you can get crazy with some Ti cables too.
> 
> Also, on all of my Santa Cruz bikes, you can save about 40-50gs on the seat post collar. Not the most savings, but still, death by a 1000x paper cuts and such.


Thanks for these ideas Toast. Both are now incorporated into the FAQ.


----------



## CuddlyToast (Oct 30, 2013)

phlegm said:


> Thanks for these ideas Toast. Both are now incorporated into the FAQ.


Cheers!

Great FAQ btw. after reading through it, there isn't anything i can think of that should be added. Now the biggest challenge will be for people to look at it first.

One thing you might want to include in the wheel build section, is that alu nipples are lighter than brass, and if you don't specify, you'll usually end up with brass (because spokes are more often than not shipped with free brass nipples)

Also, you can get valve stems (for tubeless) that are are lighter than what everybody else uses. I use the WTB TCS valves, because they are the only thing i can seem to source, but there are some other lighter alternatives from the EU.

Also, i don't remember if i read anything in the FAQ, but "tuning" and drillium is another way to save weight. It typically (re: always) voids warranty, but I've seen some amazingly clever jobs before. Most notable have been shaving extra tabs of cranks, or removing cable bosses. Paint/clear coat is a big chunk of change as well, so if you're handy, "raw"ing alu frames is relatively harmless, and can look quite good. Definitely in the do at your own risk, and is pretty old school as well, you don't see it done very often anymore.

Dang, I'm revealing all my tricks here haha.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks again. You're right that drilling and frame sanding haven't been seen here in quite a while. Maybe I can reference some old school stuff.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

*Tune Cannonball (2015) 24 Holes for Lefty forks - 97 grams*



*XX1 Type 2.1 (2015) Rear Derailleur 11-speed long - 243 grams
*


*Sapim CX-Ray 14 pieces (278mm, 280mm, 282mm, same weight) - 65 grams

* 

*Tune Kong (2015) 24 holes XD driver - 210 grams

*


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

muntos - can you edit and shrink those photos - they broke the thread for me.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

Pff...I was thinking I'll do a deal linking directly to Google Drive...
I will upload them to somewhere and resize them.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wow, that's better. I just edit my large pics in regular MS Paint, resize to 25%, and they are good to upload directly here - no need for a separate hosting service.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

Hope is fine now ! (Many) more to come !


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Still very broken man.  

Please downsize it by 50-75%.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

phlegm said:


> Still very broken man.
> 
> Please downsize it by 50-75%.


Wtf... I see them just fine on Chrome browser..
Ok, I'll see in the morning, going to sleep now


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm with the idea of 'raw'ing frames, also for carbon. People tend to be afraid of doing that and damage the carbon or weather exposure, I'd say its a myth! If done right we can get a lot of benefits on the process. I have watched a video of a high end company manufacture of carbon wheels for racing cars and all they do is to polish with a compound with UV protection...and that's it! I've stripped the paint off my carbon frame to find a gorgeous carbon texture underneath, virtually scratch free and can easily be buffed out and re-polished at any time. 
I have used the blade technique, got some heavy duty blades at Home Depot. Its a looooong process; I basically needed about 2-3h everyday for about 4days to finish the work, but I'd say the blade technique is the safer way to do. Its easy to feel the difference between digging the paint and reaching the carbon layer. Once the blade touches the carbon its a echoey sound.
here is what I've used to polish:

....forgot to mention of course, I saved about 80-90g in the process.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

phlegm said:


> Still very broken man.
> 
> Please downsize it by 50-75%.


Does anybody else has problems with the above pics? I have no problem either on desktop or mobile...


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Strange. Broken with Firefox, ok with IE and mobile (Safari).

Thanks for the pics, although we should probably figure out a better way to keep track as randomly putting scale shots in a FAQ will be tough to work with.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

Can you (easly) move the posts (or parts of a post) to other posts? My idea was to have a reserved post (or better for tracking , couple of reserved posts by component category ) and when somebody posts pics with weights to move them /append to these reserved posts. This way all the pics would be in a single place and it wouldn't be hard to check once in a couple days if there are new posts involving pics/weights and move them...


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, I see where you're going. Have spots reserved in the FAQ for screenshots of various types. I like the idea of having a dedicated spot for, say, seatpost scale shots, but it could be a lot of work.


----------



## CuddlyToast (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah, it might be best to hash this all out in the other ideas thread, if this is the "sticky" one.

It'll definitely be a bunch of work for the OP though, phlegm has already gone out of his way to revise the original FAQ.

It would be nice to have, but i think it would be better left for other places. I wonder if we could create another thread, that people could just dump pictures/descriptions in. It wouldn't necessarily have to be in order, we would just need to create a nice, easy form to fill out, to make sure that the search engine can rip through it and find it. Basically like a "post your bike" thread, except everybody would adhere to a specific naming conversion.... that way, the onus isn't on a mod/the OP to sort everything.


----------



## rumblytumbly (Jun 5, 2013)

*cranksets/bb weights*

Building up my chiner carbon this winter, one area I found confusing was trying to track down accurate weights for a "crank/bb complete assembly". Really hard to sort out from mfr specs since some just weigh the arms, some the whole assembly, some just arms plus spindle and leave out the bearings. Annoying trying to nail down a good value/weight bargain.
Maybe two categories of weights in general - BSA vs all the press fit varieties. Is there a big gram difference between the two?
Most are still on BSA. For me personally, would like to find the best bang for the buck weight weenie alloy or carbon BSA assembly with good reliability. Is it mostly a matter of just making sure you're high enough up in a given product range so you're getting an alloy spindle vs chromoly? Thanks!


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Nice work...very much updated!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks - appreciate the comment!


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Here are a couple weights. This was a few months back. I forgot I took these pics.

SRAM X9 vs X0 Type 2. I added aluminum hi, low, and b-tension screws to the X9...so it's a bit lighter than stock.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks man - hard to find comparative details like this.


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Cool thread! I'm building up a used 2012 Cannondale Flash. It's a medium frame the black/silver red cannondale logo one. I really want to build it as a sub 20lb bike! I've never had the luxury until now being in my early 20's, much more mechanically inclined, and steady income. It's going to be built w/ a 2013 carbon xlr lefty, stans crest wheelset w/ 2/1.8/2 dt spokes (stans 3.3 f hub/hope pro 2 evo rear) Shimano xtr 2014 trail cranks, 2014 xtr long cage rear d, xt cassette, 32 wolf tooth front ring (1x10), slx brakes, xt rotors, easton haven carbon 711mm bar, save seatpost 420 mm, silverado team ti seat, and some old 2003 xtr pedals (bomb proof obviously) Anyways I wanted to see what the best way to shave weight would be. Unfortunately I don't have the frame and fork yet since it's currently shipping to me so I'll be back with weight later. But I was thinking I could probably shave the most weight going from those 2/1.8/2 dt competitions to 2/1.5/2 revolutions as a cheap way to shave grams. Thoughts or recommendations?


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

AdustytrunkMonkey said:


> Cool thread! I'm building up a used 2012 Cannondale Flash. It's a medium frame the black/silver red cannondale logo one. I really want to build it as a sub 20lb bike! I've never had the luxury until now being in my early 20's, much more mechanically inclined, and steady income. It's going to be built w/ a 2013 carbon xlr lefty, stans crest wheelset w/ 2/1.8/2 dt spokes (stans 3.3 f hub/hope pro 2 evo rear) Shimano xtr 2014 trail cranks, 2014 xtr long cage rear d, xt cassette, 32 wolf tooth front ring (1x10), slx brakes, xt rotors, easton haven carbon 711mm bar, save seatpost 420 mm, silverado team ti seat, and some old 2003 xtr pedals (bomb proof obviously) Anyways I wanted to see what the best way to shave weight would be. Unfortunately I don't have the frame and fork yet since it's currently shipping to me so I'll be back with weight later. But I was thinking I could probably shave the most weight going from those 2/1.8/2 dt competitions to 2/1.5/2 revolutions as a cheap way to shave grams. Thoughts or recommendations?


I think you will be surprised at the final weight on your build. Flash Frame and crest rim is the perfect recipe for a sub 19lbs...easy! It's a 26er right? Carbon frame? I've done that before.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Well Not exactly a 26er... (although I wish I still had one...)

The '12 flash that I have is a 29er. That's why I'm thinking a good number of grams could be shed from the differences between the longer spokes which are in the 292-294mm area. I'm glad I could get a quick reply! I think it should also be noted that I prefer a moderate to low weight tire. I'm liking the Ikons (which don't have the extra thickness in the sidewall (i forgot their marketing name for that)) in my area that I ride in. Mostly hardpack under loose, Northern UT area kind of desert. Also to be noted the rear D shift lever is SLX. I do have an XT rear D on another bike; but I don't see the point in swapping it if it's only 20 grams. Those Rear D levers are 2013 and newer (if that means anything as far as weight). Oh and correction the front hub will actually be the stock 32 hole front hub that cannondale makes (which I hear is pretty solid. If anything I'll replace bearings with Kogel bearings). Rear Hope is also 32 hole. I do prefer 32 vs 28 hole for Al rims as it just feels right even at the sake of 25-30 grams.


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Oh and I'm on a tight budget, because I have a girlfriend that lives with me. I'm thinking a $100 budget could buy spokes that at my guess could shave 150 g of weight or more? Thoughts on the best move that are not relevant to tires, which should be noted that they are gorilla tape/stans sealant setup (which is solid if you're meticulous!). Of course after a few months of working I would have more money to thrown down on more luxurious upgrades that pose a substantial weight loss, like gastric bypass lol.


----------



## muntos (Jul 28, 2013)

Try Sapim CX-Ray spokes, they are light, not so expensive and your wheel builder will thank you for bladed spokes ;-)


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Rotors are 180mm to 160mm Front to rear at this time. They are the ice tech rotors. Of course if I lose like 10-20 lbs I'll probably head 160-140mm route. I weigh about 180 now and have some steep!!! downhills~


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

I would love to put some Sapim's on the wheel set I have, but it just seems like a bit much $$$ wise for what are the DT revos despite the fact they are round vs bladed. I'm my own wheel builder and I don't mind the esthetic TLC you put into the detail of a round spoke. I can definitely appreciate the idea of the bladed spoke to prevent any torsion build up. Not sure which way to go. I'll keep checking back for ideas and thoughts. Again I'll get my flash massed in complete and keep up to date.


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Actually let's shoot for a 9kg or sub 9kg bike for simplicity and goal.


----------



## AdustytrunkMonkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Sapim Cx-rays are way too expensive, like health care. like $50 average for roughly 20 spokes of this breed. Seems like Revolutions are the way to go. Let me know. Again I've build wheels and can tolerate the individual spoke under the 32 hole catch.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hey Adjusty - Why not create a new thread in the WW section, and give a full outline of what you have planned. You'll probably get better input there. Your questions here are buried in the FAQ, so not idea.


----------



## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Eliflap should chime in here too....Andrea is the craziest WW ever!


----------



## Soundbud (Oct 21, 2013)

*Slow loading forum*



muntos said:


> Does anybody else has problems with the above pics? I have no problem either on desktop or mobile...


Ues big problem trying to load the page, I found it from a Google search. Took ages to load I thought something was wrong and was about to go somehow here else, if you use a anything to compresss for web the pics should be at least 60% compression used, which get the pics half the size in data.

i use photoshop for living and web work, but here are other free programs you can use, gimp is one.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Here is a random weight. X0 Type 2 outer (or is it inner?) cage.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

That is definitely random.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Couple more random weights,

Kabolt








Stock Fox 15mm TA








Clean look


----------



## csteven71 (Jan 15, 2009)

That's a solid drop for $45.


----------



## Ghost_HTX (Sep 19, 2014)

Damn! A swap from Conti Speed King II (which are already light tyres) to Furious Fred EVO LiteSkin would net me an approximately 230g saving! 

I think I like this WW business...


----------



## TheUnknownRider (Oct 2, 2015)

80-90g savings???

light-bicycle claims 7-8g per wheel for clear coat. Have better things to do with my time than waxing raw carbon rims ... plus coming from a race car background I don't consider it a myth ...



andrepsz said:


> I'm with the idea of 'raw'ing frames, also for carbon. People tend to be afraid of doing that and damage the carbon or weather exposure, I'd say its a myth! If done right we can get a lot of benefits on the process. I have watched a video of a high end company manufacture of carbon wheels for racing cars and all they do is to polish with a compound with UV protection...and that's it! I've stripped the paint off my carbon frame to find a gorgeous carbon texture underneath, virtually scratch free and can easily be buffed out and re-polished at any time.
> I have used the blade technique, got some heavy duty blades at Home Depot. Its a looooong process; I basically needed about 2-3h everyday for about 4days to finish the work, but I'd say the blade technique is the safer way to do. Its easy to feel the difference between digging the paint and reaching the carbon layer. Once the blade touches the carbon its a echoey sound.
> here is what I've used to polish:
> 
> ....forgot to mention of course, I saved about 80-90g in the process.


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

TheUnknownRider said:


> 80-90g savings???
> 
> light-bicycle claims 7-8g per wheel for clear coat. Have better things to do with my time than waxing raw carbon rims ... plus coming from a race car background I don't consider it a myth ...


80-90g verified. A frame has lots more area then a wheel set. 
The raw'ing job on my frame is going strong now after a long time and I won't exchange for anything. The fact that I can throw my bike on the bushes, throw on the trunk of my car and no carry to much about scratching is a great thing. Besides the surface finish is awesome! Very unique.

My time spent doing this process was actually a good therapy...it all depends on the angle how you see it.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I really like this idea, especially now with satin/mat finish bike finishes being in style. If you even look at them the wrong way you get a shiny spot on them.

However, it surely must void warranty, and in my case kills the resale value unfortunately.

I've also been curious about the "exposed carbon" piece. People have freaked out with paint chips, and we've always been told to cover the bare carbon immediately. Interesting that this may be a myth. (?)


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

phlegm said:


> I really like this idea, especially now with satin/mat finish bike finishes being in style. If you even look at them the wrong way you get a shiny spot on them.
> 
> However, it surely must void warranty, and in my case kills the resale value unfortunately.
> 
> I've also been curious about the "exposed carbon" piece. People have freaked out with paint chips, and we've always been told to cover the bare carbon immediately. Interesting that this may be a myth. (?)


Yeah don't do it if you are the original owner of a most recent and expensive frame. Since mine was from ebay and older and all scratched up already...contributed to my decision to do it.

About bare carbon thoughts, 8:30min on this video, Koenigsegg mention all the benefits. 





Also, as I was walking the floor at NAHBS last year and stopped by Calfee's booth, we all know how reputable they are in the Cycling industry and they also use bare carbon on a lot of their bikes.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

TheUnknownRider said:


> 80-90g savings???
> 
> light-bicycle claims 7-8g per wheel for clear coat. Have better things to do with my time than waxing raw carbon rims ... plus coming from a race car background I don't consider it a myth ...


Actually, 80-90g in savings is significant, at least in WW terms - especially for free. Although it appears to be very labour-intensive.

...and it actually seems like it is a myth after all. I definitely learned something today:



andrepsz said:


> ...
> About bare carbon thoughts, 8:30min on this video, Koenigsegg mention all the benefits.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

phlegm said:


> Actually, 80-90g in savings is significant, at least in WW terms - especially for free. Although it appears to be very labour-intensive.
> 
> ...and it actually seems like it is a myth after all. I definitely learned something today:


Loving my frame!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

andrepsz said:


> Loving my frame!


That looks amazing!


----------



## TheUnknownRider (Oct 2, 2015)

aaa, the whole frame then? Well that makes sense I suppose. Thanks for the clarification and my apology for the misunderstanding.


----------



## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Again people nothing wrong with bare carbon . The epoxy resin is infused into the fabric and the vacuum pressurises it with great force . Taking the clearcoat off does nothing to it (well except make it lighter). I would make one point however that you should use a carbon polish just for a little protection (just to feel more at ease) and also bring out the shininess of the material . BTW good job andrepsz . I still think Phlegm that you should do the same to your frame but only if you want to keep it . I can understand if you want to sell it on in the future then you want to leave it alone .


----------



## TheUnknownRider (Oct 2, 2015)

Well, in the link you posted, they used the term " ... *this* carbon fiber material ..." regarding the reference about not coating it. It's a rather broad statenent to say that any and all CF components don't need to be clear coated for UV protection. As they also stated, most carbon fiber materials also don't handle extreme heat well, but they obviously are using some unique materials to fabricate those wheels to handle the rigor of that particular application.

Here's my own opposing view link

How To Care For Your Carbon Fibre Products | CST Composites

Not going to argue or run it into the ground though. I'm ok with someone else making their own choice on their bike.

peace, out ...


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I think the main concern - and referenced in your article Unknown, is around UV protection. Looks like the clearcoat, or even the polish offers this protection. I think this is especially important for nautical parts that are not only exposed to UV all day, but also get it reflected from the water.

However, in the Koenigegsegsegsegseggs (Top Gear reference) video, he mentions the resin does not yellow, however they apply polish to bring out the great weave look. I'm not sure if he means the resin is already UV resistant. (?)


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

phlegm said:


> Actually, 80-90g in savings is significant, at least in WW terms - especially for free. Although it appears to be very labour-intensive.


Very Labor intensive. After doing this I understand now why custom frame paint jobs cost $400 over. But if someone is looking for a reason to stay in the Garage as a getaway...its definitely a task that will keep them there for a while. 81g saved on my frame to be exact.


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

So many times I wondered '...what is the size of these bolts'...searching for stems on internet. So I decided to create this editable sheet hoping the community can also help. I think this can be a great source for those interested in upgrading their stems with aftermarket Ti bolts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y64kZPhpWKOKbp4dKaiwOafdK78Nxj-lZ96dk9ZLX6Q/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

*Part List with total weight populated.*

For the ones that enjoy building custom bikes, thought this can be useful.

Just made this part list sheet with populated total weight...it helps while brainstorming the project :thumbsup:

Open for downloads. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzxTBLBgJw64VFNNMkFuMDNxNDQ


----------



## andrepsz (Jan 28, 2013)

Another example of stripped paint job:














source: 
https://fotos.mtb-news.de/p/2099350


----------

