# Surly cross check vs Soma wolverine?



## lighty (Mar 26, 2016)

I am not considering the straggler as its front drop outs are poorly designed.

How would the weight handling capacity between the two differ?

How would the fork vibration and bump handling and feel differ?


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## deadfish (Jan 21, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, because I was unaware of the issue, why don't you like the surly front drop out? 


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

OP, I own 3 Surlys. Front drop out issues? The crosscheck was not designed for big loads. 15 lbs max for the crosscheck. IMHO.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

leeboh said:


> OP, I own 3 Surlys. Front drop out issues? The crosscheck was not designed for big loads. 15 lbs max for the crosscheck. IMHO.


15 pounds? Not sure where you got that number from. I met this guy (Uncle Dan's Bike Ride: 15200 Mile Bike Ride Around the US & Canada) on tour a couple years ago, and he hauled more than twice that weight on his well-worn cross check.

Besides, when determining max load, you need to consider both the loaded weight and the weight of the rider.


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## cjbiker (Jan 11, 2016)

I'm guessing he means that the front dropout faces down/back. This is theoretically bad with disc brakes, as the braking forces will try to pull the wheel out of the dropout.


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## NickandBruce (Sep 18, 2014)

I've been riding a Crosscheck for years and built up a Wolverine for a customer. Both bikes were built up as pavement preferred, mixed surface capable touring bikes with racks and fenders. The Soma was built with a belt driven NuVinci IGH and the CC is a standard 3x9 Shimano. 35mm tires on the Soma, 47mm on the CC. I like my CC better. 

Here are my impressions... I'll try to keep it limited to things that apply to the bikes specifically, not the set-ups.

The overall build quality of the CC felt better. The Soma was ok, but little details like the finish being delicate and flaking easily are turn offs.

The versatility of the sliding drop-outs on the Soma is cool, but I prefer the simplicity of a standard horizontal drop-out. Less moving parts and less bolts to check make me happy.

The geomoetry of the Surly also fits me better. It just feels like a bike I want to ride. I was really excited to ride the Soma when I was building it, but was disappointed when it came time for the first test ride.



Now, regarding the CC load carrying capabilities, I load mine with 50lbs of cargo and it handles just fine. 

Usually this means:
Fork- 
2 front panniers if running errands, commuting or carrying most of the load for touring trips.

Main triangle-
A partial frame bag, carrying 2L of water, snacks, maps. 
A 1L Nalgene or stove fuel
Folding bike lock

Top tube- 
Tent poles

Saddle- 
Sleeping pad



So most of the weight sits on the fork, with some of it being moved onto the frame. I don't use a rear rack since it interferes with my dog trailer, and the weight on the seatpost rack I used for a while messed with the bike's handling too much. My bike is very stable like this.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

both use a similar tubeset so weight capacity would be similar as well as fork compliance.
But both have screwed up rear dropouts IMO. I think the Masi Giromondo is a much better bike for the money. You can also swap in some 2.1" 650B wheels/tires, bigger than anything that fits on the Soma or Surly.

mike


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

senor_mikey said:


> both use a similar tubeset so weight capacity would be similar as well as fork compliance.
> But both have screwed up rear dropouts IMO. I think the Masi Giromondo is a much better bike for the money. You can also swap in some 2.1" 650B wheels/tires, bigger than anything that fits on the Soma or Surly.
> 
> mike


The Soma actually fits a 29 x 2.2, so it has a bigger tire than the Masi by a longshot.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

mdilthey said:


> The Soma actually fits a 29 x 2.2, so it has a bigger tire than the Masi by a longshot.


not sure where you heard this^^^. I've seen one bike with 2.1 Nano's ( which are an undersized tire) and they had the sliders all the way back with a tight fit at the chainstays. Plus the front center had some serious toe overlap. Not something I would ride,

mike


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

senor_mikey said:


> not sure where you heard this^^^. I've seen one bike with 2.1 Nano's ( which are an undersized tire) and they had the sliders all the way back with a tight fit at the chainstays. Plus the front center had some serious toe overlap. Not something I would ride,
> 
> mike


I didn't "hear" it anywhere. There are two at my local shop. I ride with one of the guys.

Not to mention, Soma says it fits a 2.2 right on their site. Here's a picture of a Wolverine with 2.2 Ardents, one of the highest volume tires on the market:









Since the Soma has a longer wheelbase and bigger tire clearance than the Masi, it, too can run 650B wheels and an even bigger tire. So if you really were worried about toe overlap, the soma STILL wins. The Giramondo only has room for a 40c tire, much much smaller than the Soma.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

dh024 said:


> 15 pounds? Not sure where you got that number from. I met this guy (Uncle Dan's Bike Ride: 15200 Mile Bike Ride Around the US & Canada) on tour a couple years ago, and he hauled more than twice that weight on his well-worn cross check.
> 
> Besides, when determining max load, you need to consider both the loaded weight and the weight of the rider.


 Surly website says" light loads" Since this is the bikepacking page, some folks have 50 lbs of gear and pedaling the CC off road? Best of luck with that. Seems there are better options from Surly for that. YRMV. Currently running 29x2.3 slicks on the Karate Monkey with fenders, 35 mm rims.


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## dh024 (Dec 11, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Surly website says" light loads" Since this is the bikepacking page, some folks have 50 lbs of gear and pedaling the CC off road? Best of luck with that. Seems there are better options from Surly for that. YRMV. Currently running 29x2.3 slicks on the Karate Monkey with fenders, 35 mm rims.


If your point is that 50 lbs off-road is too much for a CC, then that might be fair. But the OP is trying to compare two road/gravel bikes, and in that context, both should make excellent light touring bikes.

And I have you beat - running 29 x 2.5" slicks on my ECR, with fenders!


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## lighty (Mar 26, 2016)

This is also the bike expedition forum. It is basically the touring forum. I have had 50lbs on a cross ceck before, and it isn't that bad. I was planning on that being a high max. As long as you are on trails and dirt roads and road, the cross check is fine. I've been needing something faster and roadier that will handle loads.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

mdilthey said:


> I didn't "hear" it anywhere. There are two at my local shop. I ride with one of the guys.
> 
> Not to mention, Soma says it fits a 2.2 right on their site. Here's a picture of a Wolverine with 2.2 Ardents, one of the highest volume tires on the market:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call 4mm of tire clearance adequate, so pictures don't tell the real story. The Giramondo can fit a 2.2" 650B tire width same as the Soma can fit. Not sure where you read 700x 2.2 for the Soma, not on their website... it says 700 x 45 tires.

Also the Soma has a really low stack height, a major design flaw.

mike


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

senor_mikey said:


> I wouldn't call 4mm of tire clearance adequate, so pictures don't tell the real story. The Giramondo can fit a 2.2" 650B tire width same as the Soma can fit. Not sure where you read 700x 2.2 for the Soma, not on their website... it says 700 x 45 tires.
> 
> Also the Soma has a really low stack height, a major design flaw.
> 
> mike


Pictures don't tell the real story, and neither does your biased opinion. The Double Cross fits a huge tire. That's 45c _plus fenders,_ which easily suits a 2.2. Loads of people running massive tires on their wolverines- two seconds on Google will show you hundreds of results. And besides, if you run 650B wheels that's even MORE clearance, and in both wheel sizes, it clears a bigger tire than a Masi Giramondo.

Your stack comment seems pretty off. The Wolverine is a different bike from the Masi Giramondo, which looks a lot more like a Salsa Vaya. Compare the Wolverine to a similar bike to itself, like the Surly Cross-Check, and it has a higher stack height than most frames - up to 20mm higher than most. It doesn't have as high a stack height as the one random Masi you've decided to put on a pedestal.... because it's a different kind of bike.

I don't think you're the kind of rider who would really appreciate a Wolverine. It's best that you're sticking to the hybrid-style Giramondo. For the OP, the Wolverine is definitely not worth counting out, as it has a cult following in just a couple of years thanks to a lot of great design cues. Very original bike, not mass-produced like a Masi, but carefully handmade by talented builders in small batches.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

mdilthey said:


> Pictures don't tell the real story, and neither does your biased opinion. The Double Cross fits a huge tire. That's 45c _plus fenders,_ which easily suits a 2.2. Loads of people running massive tires on their wolverines- two seconds on Google will show you hundreds of results. And besides, if you run 650B wheels that's even MORE clearance, and in both wheel sizes, it clears a bigger tire than a Masi Giramondo.
> 
> Your stack comment seems pretty off. The Wolverine is a different bike from the Masi Giramondo, which looks a lot more like a Salsa Vaya. Compare the Wolverine to a similar bike to itself, like the Surly Cross-Check, and it has a higher stack height than most frames - up to 20mm higher than most. It doesn't have as high a stack height as the one random Masi you've decided to put on a pedestal.... because it's a different kind of bike.
> 
> I don't think you're the kind of rider who would really appreciate a Wolverine. It's best that you're sticking to the hybrid-style Giramondo. For the OP, the Wolverine is definitely not worth counting out, as it has a cult following in just a couple of years thanks to a lot of great design cues. Very original bike, not mass-produced like a Masi, but carefully handmade by talented builders in small batches.


you don't have a clue Bud...actually all 3 are crappy "made in Taiwan" bikes. I ride two different customs made in the US to my design. Both are similar to the Wolverine but better designed, better tubing, and hand brazed not production tigged bikes.

I owned a Double Cross 10 years ago when they used good Reynolds tubing and not the cheap Tange tubing of today. If you've fallen for the marketing BS that Soma put's out... small batchs etc... you sound like the perfect gullible customer. Have fun.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

cjbiker said:


> I'm guessing he means that the front dropout faces down/back. This is theoretically bad with disc brakes, as the braking forces will try to pull the wheel out of the dropout.


The key word is theoretically. With the hundreds of Stragglers on the road I don't recall one person ever reporting that happening.

A deer running out and sending you to the ER is far more of a concern. That's actually happened to people.


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## lighty (Mar 26, 2016)

No, there is a thread on here where poeple with dropouts like that have had pop outs and slid axles. If they really cared, they would just point the stupid dropouts forward. It is undeniable that the forces wish to pull the axle down. Why not just face the dropouts forward and mitigate the whole issue?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

lighty said:


> Why not just face the dropouts forward and mitigate the whole issue?


If it happened even a handful of times QBP's lawyers would have Surly changing those dropouts in a heartbeat. Go into the Straggler forum and see if anyone has ever had their front axle move.

It's just not an issue.

I can find you one occurrence of any freak problem you can think of. Last TD a metal rigid fork sheared off at the crown. What does that tells us? Avoid metal rigid forks? No....it only tells us that $hit happens.

If it happened a number of time it would be something worth paying attention to.


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## mdilthey (Dec 15, 2014)

senor_mikey said:


> you don't have a clue Bud...actually all 3 are crappy "made in Taiwan" bikes. I ride two different customs made in the US to my design. Both are similar to the Wolverine but better designed, better tubing, and hand brazed not production tigged bikes.
> 
> I owned a Double Cross 10 years ago when they used good Reynolds tubing and not the cheap Tange tubing of today. If you've fallen for the marketing BS that Soma put's out... small batchs etc... you sound like the perfect gullible customer. Have fun.


There it is! "Your bike is bad because i'm justifying my custom."


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

mdilthey said:


> a Salsa Vaya.


I agree.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm happy to see that there are people here already setting the nonsense straight.

So I'll just do a bit of echoing, having spent a lot of time on the straggler and wolverine.

The Wolverine has tall stack, for the type of bike it is. It is not an AWOL, Vaya or other modern touring bike designed for an upright fit. It was designed for more playful usage, less loaded touring.


Both cross checks and stragglers have teeny-tiny stacks.

Soma paint is fragile. It wasn't always, but it sure has been these last few years.

Tange Prestige/infinity Tubing is a good solid Mid-grade tubing. nothing brilliant, but very good. definitely not the heavy, dead tubing that Surly uses. I find it only slightly less awesome than Reynolds, and I'd agree with others who say that older prestige rides smoother. Older prestige was also thinner. I have older prestige bikes.

The Surly fork is excellent. It's the frame I don't like. Anyone who is not an idiot will have zero issues with those drop outs. Granted the fork is definitely not very forgiving for steel, but it's very solid.

Soma is like 1.5 guys. When you include the people from Merry sales It's like 3 or 4. they don't have some slick marketing people. I can't really tell who is marketing Soma. Stan and Evan seem like cool dudes, but both of them are pretty awkward to talk to. I don't think they've got some grand scheme to trick people into buying their bikes. 

If they did, they'd probably be able to sell more of them.


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## lighty (Mar 26, 2016)

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/disc-brake-danger-9591.html

It has happened multiple times.

And Agwan, how is it that the double cross will only hold 20lbs? Is the fit and finish on SOMA really that bad?

Also, are there any other tange or good tubing cross check type frames out there that don't cost a mint?


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## lighty (Mar 26, 2016)

Would the all city space horse work?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

lighty said:


> It has happened multiple times.


Show me one instance of it happening to any of the hundreds of Straggler forks out there in the wild. If there was a flaw to that design it would have been found by now.

I can find you instances of front wheels with QRs coming off bikes with rim brakes....that doesn't make QRs and unreliable option with rim brakes....if it did you couldn't ride a CC. The % risk is beyond tiny and the root causes are almost entirely rider error in using a QR.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

lighty said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/disc-brake-danger-9591.html
> 
> It has happened multiple times.
> 
> ...


The fit in the Soma is tremendously good. It's extremely well built. The paint on the Soma is paint, and as such is considerably less durable than the paint on a Surly, Which is melted plastic (Powder coat)

Both Surly and Soma are well manufactured, the difference is a Wolverine was clearly designed by someone who builds a prototype, rides it, and changes the prototype, and keeps doing that until he feels it's perfect.

The Straggler was just tweaked cross check Geometry that someone took for a spin and said "We don't even want to build this bike, but the customers keep demanding it. This is good enough"

Surlys in general are also very stiff and unforgiving (in the realm of steel bikes, not in the realm of... you know, bikes.)

Surly and Soma don't cost a mint. Wont find much cheaper than those two.

And who in the world thinks a Double Cross will only hold 20 pounds? The Double Cross is a frameset, it's payload will ultimately be determined by the final build.

If you did go out and buy the Complete, Soma spec that with the heavier duty fork.

Show me where a qualified source thinks that a durable steel bike with mid fork eyelets can only hold 20 pounds. Because I doubt that source exists.

And again, that disc brake issue has happened multiple times, for idiots. Don't be an idiot and it wont happen.


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## c0vrtn3y (Jul 27, 2015)

i sold a cross check to buy a wolverine and im disappointed in my decision. soma customer service lacks... the sliding dropouts on my wolverine are constantly an issue no matter who "fixes" them. no matter how many times. i never had a single issue with my cross check, and when any time i did contact surly, their customer service was outstanding. i will never buy anything from soma again, and im so disappointed i switched.


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## UncleDan (Oct 15, 2016)

*Touring on a Cross Check*



dh024 said:


> 15 pounds? Not sure where you got that number from. I met this guy (Uncle Dan's Bike Ride: 15200 Mile Bike Ride Around the US & Canada) on tour a couple years ago, and he hauled more than twice that weight on his well-worn cross check.
> 
> Besides, when determining max load, you need to consider both the loaded weight and the weight of the rider.


I'm that guy. I had a 07 or 08 Cross Check and as mentioned I was carrying about 45-50 lbs with two rear panniers and a handlebar bag. At one point I also had extra water bottles attached to the front fork. I'm about 150 lbs. Never had a problem and spent a good amount of time on rough dirt roads. The Cross Check is a durable bike. I never even broke a spoke, but ultimately the rear wheel cracked on the braking surface, which is normal wear for a wheel with more than 15,000 miles on it.


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## mwv (Jan 24, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Surly website says" light loads" Since this is the bikepacking page, some folks have 50 lbs of gear and pedaling the CC off road? Best of luck with that. Seems there are better options from Surly for that. YRMV. Currently running 29x2.3 slicks on the Karate Monkey with fenders, 35 mm rims.


It's worked just fine for me with about 50 lbs. I've been touring on it the past 6 months. I've taken it on offroad terrain well above its target terrain. I had great luck and great fun.


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## James39 (Aug 18, 2015)

I haven't got any experience with the Soma, but I have owned a Cross-Check for about 6 years or so so I can at least tell you a bit about my time with that bike.

I initially got it as a touring bike that could serve as a cross bike, commuter, gravel grinder, drop bar singletrack slayer and general do it all bike because really....what percentage for the time will I actually be touring? To that end, it has been excellent. In fact, I've sold everything but the Surly and my full suspension mountain bike, whereas I used to have about 6 or so bikes, each with a very specific purpose. Instead, I have some parts setup for a quick swap to what I need. For example, I usually sport a carbon fork, but I have the stock fork with a rack mounted ready to drop on for touring duty, an extra wheelset for road VS dirt, a couple stem options, etc. 

Frankly, I've abused the **** out of it. I'm talking full touring load down a straight up mountain bike trail. Roots, rocks, small drops, etc. Other than being heavy as **** with all my crap on it, it actually handled it well, though of course I wasn't setting any KOMs. Put to bed any concerns I had about the durability of the frame, that's for sure. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an ideal bikepacker, I plan to get the new Karate Monkey for future singletrack tours, but for a tour that is to include lots of gravel roads and a bit of the gnar thrown in, surely the Surly can handle it.

On the road, it's also pretty effective as a touring bike, though there are a few considerations. Due to the shorter chainstays (as compared to the LHT for example, which I nearly bought) heel strike on the panniers can be a factor. Really, this just took a bit of messing about at the beginning to get it right, and then never was an issue again. You just want to find a rack that allows you to jam the panniers a little farther back, and use the rearmost eyelet to mount it. I can't recall doing anything else. Other than that, a longer stem for extra stability and more stretched out position on long road treks was the only change I felt I needed to make to turn it from a cross bike to a road touring rig. 

When you're not touring, it's just a solid bike that can handle everything I've thrown at it. It's not the latest and greatest of everything, but I don't think my steel do it all bike needs discs and boost thru axles or anything like that. I sold off my carbon CX and carbon road bikes because they were just gathering dust while the Surly was getting dirty. 

In case you can't tell, I am a bit of a Cross Check fanboy at this point. I'm sure the Soma is a nice bike too, and there are lots of other great choices as well, but I don't think you can go wrong with the Surly.

As for the load capacity of the bike...I don't know, I'm not the type to weigh it all out. I've bent a couple racks doing dumb ****, but never a problem with the frame itself. Helps that I am about 150lbs, so I have a lot of leeway there. The Surly website says something like 300lbs combined rider and load weight, but there are a lot of variables. Either way, it's a tough bastard.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

The Soma Wolverines geo is actually closer to a cross check than a Stragglers, and frankly, I like the 'Check better for most things. Maybe it's because i grew up on MTBs, but the higher bottom bracket of the Check fits my preferred urban commuter riding style better. I understand why surly dropped the bottom bracket on the Straggler (more of a "road" like feel and the clearance for larger tires) but the Check clears the same tires a Straggler does. 

I like both bikes, but for longer distance riding, the Wolverine is a smoother bike. Properly set up, the wolverine drop outs are more stable/durable. But the check drop outs are fine if you know how to use a QR skewer correctly. The Straggler drops are faffy, but work just fine... again IF you know how to use a proper skewer.

Wordalanche.

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## sellwinerugs (Aug 14, 2016)

senor_mikey said:


> you don't have a clue Bud...actually all 3 are crappy "made in Taiwan" bikes. I ride two different customs made in the US to my design. Both are similar to the Wolverine but better designed, better tubing, and hand brazed not production tigged bikes.
> 
> I owned a Double Cross 10 years ago when they used good Reynolds tubing and not the cheap Tange tubing of today. If you've fallen for the marketing BS that Soma put's out... small batchs etc... you sound like the perfect gullible customer. Have fun.


I'm late to this thread but it's never too late to say "I don't agree, You're being a jackass" in a forum. This thread is not about how great custom bikes are, the question was about the Wolverine and the Cross Check. No one gives a **** about your custom stable unless you can contribute something meaningful to the bicycle community. You're just hating on other posters because you have something to prove about Masi bikes, which IMO are garbage these days. And you say your custom mades are similar to the Wolverine? Well, if the Masi is so great, why didn't you get custom made bikes similar to it? Probably because it's garbage. How do I know they are garbage? Because Masi hasn't done anything new or innovative in years. They follow trends, and they have hideous color schemes.

And I do not agree that all Made in Taiwan bikes are garbage. Believe it or not, other countries can also have skilled labor, not just 'Merica. I bet you voted for Trump, too, you ignorant xenophobe. Plenty of high quality, mid-range bikes are being made in Taiwan. It's like Japan in the '80's. Hell, Surly and SOMA are still doing lugged forks on some models. Until this year, SOMA produced a lugged frame for Rivendell, in Taiwan!

So back to the original post: yes, SOMA Wolverine's rear dropouts are weird, but they can fit a huge tire, and belt drive. I am running SERFAS drifter 29 x 2.0 with 5mm clearance. Tange is good steel, and SOMA makes a great frame for the money. Surly is tried and true, and you honestly can't go wrong with a Cross Check. Really, I think you'd be happy either way. Just not with Masi.


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## Agwan (Feb 16, 2011)

Stragglers rear drop outs are weird. Soma's rear drop outs are the best solution, to a problem I have, but most people do not have.

Also, Soma is bringing back their own lugged bike, the Stanyan. My guess being that Grant Peterson (rivendell) has a love it or hate it geo in his designs, and Soma's seem to please more people.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

I tried a 54 Surly and 56 Soma with both feeling too long. I'm sure that's because I spend so much time on modern MTBs, and because I quite loved a size 55 Vaya I tried.

Fit confused me more than these being good or bad choices. The Soma had bigger tires that might have disguised things but it seemed like a modern version of 1970s and 80s steel road bikes I enjoyed.

Negative comments on Soma paint might be true. I'm looking at a barely used bike and the owner did comment that it sure scratched easily compared to his Trek 520 and years old steel Bianchi.

To me it looks like lots of wonderful choices out there - too many? My only issue with all of it is the lack of opportunity for my 5'10" self to try before you buy regarding the right fit.


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