# What MTB town has the lowest cost of living?



## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Maybe some of you guys flow Singletracks as well and saw this posted today. They posted the question "What MTB town has the lowest cost of living"? The described a MTB town as 100 miles of excellent singletrack, within 25 miles of downtown and a good bike shop...

I immediately though of Oakridge but not sure if it has 100 miles of singletrack and it doesn't have a real downtown but it does have a great bike shop. Median home price is $145K. next up on my list was Grand Junction which qualifies with all the requirements and has a median home price of $214K.

https://www.facebook.com/singletrac...34466362598/10155637741067599/?type=3&theater


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

k2rider1964 said:


> Maybe some of you guys flow Singletracks as well and saw this posted today. They posted the question "What MTB town has the lowest cost of living"? The described a MTB town as 100 miles of excellent singletrack, within 25 miles of downtown and a good bike shop...
> 
> I immediately though of Oakridge but not sure if it has 100 miles of singletrack and it doesn't have a real downtown but it does have a great bike shop. Median home price is $145K. next up on my list was Grand Junction which qualifies with all the requirements and has a median home price of $214K.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/singletrac...34466362598/10155637741067599/?type=3&theater


It's probably going to be hard to beat Bentonville. There may be some but not many and not by much if at all.

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Good topic.
I immediately thought of Oakridge as well. Easily exceeds 100 miles of single track. I think the town size is perfect really, just needs more "desirable" tenants in the store fronts.

Grand Junction is gorgeous and I love the riding. Not a fan of how the town is falling victim to sprawl though and it gets very hot there.

Also a big fan of McCall. Need to figure a metric for the ability to make a living vs median home price to give the thread (Mtb town has the lowest cost of living) some utility. I plan to move to one of these towns within a year.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Yeah McCall is a pretty cool place to live but I agree, not sure how one would make a living there. Go back to school, get a forestry degree and work for the Forest Service!


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## inonjoey (Jul 19, 2011)

WHALENARD said:


> Good topic.
> I immediately thought of Oakridge as well. Easily exceeds 100 miles of single track. I think the town size is perfect really, just needs more "desirable" tenants in the store fronts.
> 
> Grand Junction is gorgeous and I love the riding. Not a fan of how the town is falling victim to sprawl though and it gets very hot there.
> ...


The ability to make a living vs home price/cost of living is immediately what came to mind when I thought of Oakridge. Sure, it's pretty cheap to live there, but what the hell would you do for work? What jobs are available would likely make that "low" cost of living seem pretty high.

Now, if you can truly work remotely (or commute into a larger town/city one or two days a week - in the case of Oakridge that would be Eugene), a place with a low cost of living but few decent (not even high) paying jobs would be just fine. Unfortunately, I used to be in a field where I could pull a similar scenario off --if I ever got the wife on board-- but since I made a career change 4 years ago, I'm stuck close to cities.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

WHALENARD said:


> Good topic.
> I immediately thought of Oakridge as well. Easily exceeds 100 miles of single track. I think the town size is perfect really, just needs more "desirable" tenants in the store fronts.
> 
> Grand Junction is gorgeous and I love the riding. Not a fan of how the town is falling victim to sprawl though and it gets very hot there.
> ...


That's a key point. Oakridge is ~$3000 cheaper than Bentonville, ~$3000 more expensive than Bella Vista, but the per capita income is ~$13,000 higher in Bentonville.

An interesting note on those comparisons is how housing can skew it. Low cost of living areas with a relatively large affluent population can cause housing costs to skew dramatically.

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

inonjoey said:


> The ability to make a living vs home price/cost of living is immediately what came to mind when I thought of Oakridge. Sure, it's pretty cheap to live there, but what the hell would you do for work? What jobs are available would likely make that "low" cost of living seem pretty high.
> 
> Now, if you can truly work remotely (or commute into a larger town/city one or two days a week - in the case of Oakridge that would be Eugene), a place with a low cost of living but few decent (not even high) paying jobs would be just fine. Unfortunately, I used to be in a field where I could pull a similar scenario off --if I ever got the wife on board-- but since I made a career change 4 years ago, I'm stuck close to cities.


Oakridge as a location is pretty amazing for the outdoor opportunities. If I only had to drive into Eugene 8 days a month to make it work I could live with that. There are lots of fixer uppers in Oakridge for <100k. 20% down on a 30 year 100k mortgage and you would not need to make a lot of money to make your bills. I'm a contractor and this scenario is very appealing to sidestep the proverbial race of rats.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> An interesting note on those comparisons is how housing can skew it. Low cost of living areas with a relatively large affluent population can cause housing costs to skew dramatically.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Absolutely. Another factor is investment. Land is super cheap in Oakridge but would wager it's on the precipice of becoming discovered. There is no shortage of water in Oakridge making it attractively viable vs some other parts of the country where water supply is or will become an issue.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

....


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Only been to McCall once, when my son was at Boise State. Not sure what I was expecting but the town was much less inspiring than what I had hoped for. I guess I was hoping for an undiscovered Durango. I know there is riding there but is there enough to sustain you w/o getting bored.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

k2rider1964 said:


> Only been to McCall once, when my son was at Boise State. Not sure what I was expecting but the town was much less inspiring than what I had hoped for. I guess I was hoping for an undiscovered Durango. I know there is riding there but is there enough to sustain you w/o getting bored.


The MTB scene is really growing as of late. They just built a bunch of mtb specific trail right out of town. You also have Brundage to go big and plenty of backcountry miles. A burgeoning fat bike/groomer scene in winter. I love snowmobiling and it doesn't get much better than McCall. Another plus is the Frank Church Wilderness. Biggest piece of roadless wilderness in the lower 48. McCall has a lot going for it.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Come to think of it, I suppose that Wenatchee, WA might qualify.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

But I prefer Twisp


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

WHALENARD said:


> But I prefer Twisp


Oh hell yeah! I'd love to live in Twisp.

That place is awesome.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Damn you guys for giving up the goods on McCall! It was supposed to be our secret.

People were talking about Oakridge being "about to blow up any day" back in 2002 when I moved to central Oregon. Hasn't happened yet. It's still kinda beat down.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nat said:


> People were talking about Oakridge being "about to blow up any day" back in 2002 when I moved to central Oregon. Hasn't happened yet. It's still kinda beat down.


I still think it's going to happen at some point. According to one real estate website I was on, homes prices are up 9.8% over last year. It needs some "hip" businesses to open up to attract the right crowd to get things started. I wonder if any tech companies that are outdoor friendly would take a shot someday. Did you see this article in Outside Magazine https://www.outsideonline.com/2231051/living-cloud about tech companies coming to a dying town like Prineville?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Curveball said:


> Oh hell yeah! I'd love to live in Twisp.
> 
> That place is awesome.


Gorgeous country for sure. Great minds think alike.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

k2rider1964 said:


> Did you see this article in Outside Magazine https://www.outsideonline.com/2231051/living-cloud about tech companies coming to a dying town like Prineville?


I hadn't seen that article before. Thanks for posting it. I would love it if Prineville became the next "it" locale. I'd buy property there. The Ochocos are the nicest mountains in central Oregon in my opinion. The locals don't really welcome the kind of changes that would appeal to the Patagonia crowd though.

The technology companies built their data centers in Prineville because of the ideal climate and tax breaks but I don't know if Oakridge has similar appeal to any large employer.


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## Kodiakrider (Jan 14, 2018)

If we are talking about small towns and brutal cost of living my town of Sandpoint Idaho has to rank up there. Really it's about what we earn compared to what it costs. Back in the late 90s you could buy a house for under a hundred thousand, in town. It was even less expensive outside of town.

In around 2003 there was an article in Sunset Magazine about Sandpoint and it ruined this town. Within a few years housing prices skyrocketed to triple and higher. Houses in town that were $60,000 shot up to over $250,000. Houses were being bought and flipped, often times with no work even being done to them.

Construction went nuts, new homes were being built and sold at insane prices. Problem was it was only the wealthy that were doing it. They also gained enough leverage to keep industry out of the area. Basically what was once a nice little logging town with a nice lake and decent ski mountain turned into a resort town for the upper income bracket to come and play. 

The recession dropped housing prices a bit, I was finally able to buy my house in 2008 for $137,000 but it's a half hour from town. The same house in town would be well over $200,000. Rental costs are insane, you can't rent a meth lab for under 800 bucks, a decent house for a family is over 1200 bucks. Jobs don't pay very well, 8 to 10 bucks an hour is about average. I do okay, I work at a small company that builds airplanes but it only employs just under 300 people. Most jobs here are low paying customer service jobs. Everything is expensive to try to fleece money from the wealthy but it's us locals that pay the price. 

So no, having your town "blowing up" isn't always the best thing.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Desirable towns will always be about the Haves versus the Have-nots, won't it? If it's a nice place people will move there. At some threshold many people will get priced out. You know the old saying about billionaires pushing out the millionaires?


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Kodiakrider said:


> If we are talking about small towns and brutal cost of living my town of Sandpoint Idaho has to rank up there. Really it's about what we earn compared to what it costs. Back in the late 90s you could buy a house for under a hundred thousand, in town. It was even less expensive outside of town.
> 
> In around 2003 there was an article in Sunset Magazine about Sandpoint and it ruined this town. Within a few years housing prices skyrocketed to triple and higher. Houses in town that were $60,000 shot up to over $250,000. Houses were being bought and flipped, often times with no work even being done to them.
> 
> ...


Mineral Trail is one of the best I've ever ridden though.


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## Kodiakrider (Jan 14, 2018)

Nat said:


> Desirable towns will always be about the Haves versus the Have-nots, won't it? If it's a nice place people will move there. At some threshold many people will get priced out. You know the old saying about billionaires pushing out the millionaires?


Yeah that is true. Usually it's the drive across the Long Bridge that hooks most people. You don't find a nice ski mountain with a huge lake at the base in too many locations. The winters weed out the weak though. It isn't even that we get huge amounts of snow, it's more that the cloudy dreary wet season is long. We really only get about 4 months of awesome weather. The rest can be tough to deal with and a good amount of people leave after a tough winter. A significant amount of property belongs to people who only summer here.

I don't begrudge the wealthy, my issue is with the local businesses. The gas stations are the worst. They collude to raise prices, especially during busy times of the year. It's almost mafia level. Any owner that dares to run a lower price to attract business is pressured by the rest so basically we have to pay the high prices. We won't even get into the prices of goods and services, I almost exclusively buy goods online. Food we are kind of stuck. Basically we pay city prices but are paid small town wages. Oh well, that's the price we pay to live in this area....


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Van down by the river.


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## JAGI410 (Apr 19, 2008)

Crosby, MN. Home of Cuyuna. Currently ~30 miles of glorious single track, soon to be 60. 2 hours from Minneapolis and their 100 miles. 1.5 hours for Duluth and their 100 miles. 15 minutes from Brainerd, which has most of everything worthwhile you’d find in a big city.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I tried this experiment two years ago when the last kid left for college. I took a break from my career and moved to Big Bear. You either have to drive down the hill for work or work for close to minimum wage. I landed a job working for Bear Mountain and Snow Summit ski resorts in lift maintenance, climbing towers and troubleshooting electrical issues and everything else that goes along with maintaining lifts. Both resorts are owned by Mammoth Mountain and for this dangerous work in every kind of weather, I was paid $12.00 an hour. That was with a lot of experience, both in the electrical field and building cell sites(in the mid 90s I was paid $27.65 an hour build cell towers). In a mountain tourist town, that 12 bucks wouldn't buy me a breakfast burrito. Free year round passes to both resorts and Mammoth were cool.

On weekends, the town swells by 100k people and you cant move around town. Even the back streets get crowded. On Fridays, my wife and I would get our beer and food for the weekend and "shelter in place".

In the end, we moved back 25 miles across to the other side of the mountain. I went back to my career and 40 minute commute off the hill. There's good trails here, but not many, and it's a easy drive over to Big Bear.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

It's all relative. Cheap places have low wages.

That said, I've looked around, and Pocatello was at the top of the list. Went there, and found it has some "cultural issues" that weren't so attractive, and then there's the harsh winter climate. Not for me, but maybe an option for others.

At this point, if the wife and I decide to make a run for it, it'll be to a small house on a large piece of land, far away from any major city, with a well maintained camper van parked out back for extended trips to the promised lands. Local trails won't be much of a priority, but living mortgage free and having the freedom to take off and go wherever for a week or a month at a time will.


.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

_CJ said:


> It's all relative. Cheap places have low wages.
> .


That's not always true.

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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Tons of good riding around Pittsburgh and the cost of living is still pretty low with lots of good paying jobs in tech, medical and industrial fields. I live 30 miles north of the city and gave 60K for a renovated house with a huge 2 car garage and 15 miles of singletrack 10 minutes away. There are at least 15 quality places to ride withing an hour drive.

Brady's Run
Brush Creek
Moraine
North Park
Boyce Park
Hartwood Acres
South Park
Bavington
Sewickley Park
Riverview Park
Frick Park
Deer Lakes
Settlers Cabin
Hollow Oak
Tomlinson Run
just across the Ohio line is Beaver Creek, Lake Milton and West Branch

Raystown, Jakes Rocks, Quebec Wilderness and Ohiopyle are within day trip distance.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mookie said:


> Yeah McCall is a pretty cool place to live but I agree, not sure how one would make a living there. Go back to school, get a forestry degree and work for the Forest Service!


Become a smoke jumper! There's a base right in town!


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Northern New England has plenty of inexpensive “bike towns.” Trails networks are popping up and expanding while biking is becoming a big draw for many people. 



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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's not always true.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


This is true. We still had our house on the other end of the mountain, but in Big Bear we were renting a one bedroom one bath for $1200, in the squirrelly part of town.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Vader said:


> This is true. We still had our house on the other end of the mountain, but in Big Bear we were renting a one bedroom one bath for $1200, in the squirrelly part of town.


Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.

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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Brevard or Mills River, North Carolina. Starting to get more expensive, though.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Coxsackie


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

the one ring said:


> Become a smoke jumper! There's a base right in town!


Now you're talking! Solutions...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Brevard or Mills River, North Carolina. Starting to get more expensive, though.


I was thinking about NC. I'm assuming Asheville is getting pricey too?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Knowing the area around Pisgah, there are still a LOT of fixer-upper opportunities off the beaten path there. Lots of hollers (hollows) where you could buy land or an old house for next to nothing. It's still Appalachia. Yeah, it would be a 30min drive into town, but you could build a palace in the woods.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Knowing the area around Pisgah, there are still a LOT of fixer-upper opportunities off the beaten path there. Lots of hollers (hollows) where you could buy land or an old house for next to nothing. It's still Appalachia. Yeah, it would be a 30min drive into town, but you could build a palace in the woods.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Yes, but housing isn't the only factor in cost of living calculations. That area is pretty cheap though.

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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

inonjoey said:


> The ability to make a living vs home price/cost of living is immediately what came to mind when I thought of Oakridge. Sure, it's pretty cheap to live there, but what the hell would you do for work? What jobs are available would likely make that "low" cost of living seem pretty high.


This is something many people forget when it comes to mtn biking towns or more generally places you can both live and ride a mtn bike. It not so much housing prices, but jobs. The best places to live and ride have both reasonable cost of living, jobs and mtn bike trails.

I live in the Phoenix area. Yes it is a large city, but that provides many job opportunities. So I can have normal good job and not let my job be slave to living in a mtn bike town. Housing is reasonable considering the job market and the mtn biking is excellent. Better than most people give us credit for and with some adaption to heat and some planning I ride year around. 2-5 times per week all year.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

JoePAz said:


> This is something many people forget when it comes to mtn biking towns or more generally places you can both live and ride a mtn bike. It not so much housing prices, but jobs. The best places to live and ride have both reasonable cost of living, jobs and mtn bike trails.
> 
> I live in the Phoenix area. Yes it is a large city, but that provides many job opportunities. So I can have normal good job and not let my job be slave to living in a mtn bike town. Housing is reasonable considering the job market and the mtn biking is excellent. Better than most people give us credit for and with some adaption to heat and some planning I ride year around. 2-5 times per week all year.


That's why I originally said Bentonville would be hard to beat.

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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Albuquerque, Boise and Colorado Springs are a few others that come to mind, considering larger metro areas and job potential as some of the limiting factors. Using a couple of the online cost of living calculators, the CoLs compared to San Diego (my personal and painful benchmark) are about 60-63%. 

All of them have dozens of MTB trails close in, are a reasonable drive to many more, and are gateways to fantastic outdoor recreation beyond MTB.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's why I originally said Bentonville would be hard to beat.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Except for the oppressive humidity you may be right.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Except for the oppressive humidity you may be right.


It's relative. Coming from southern Arkansas the worst day here is still nice.

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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

_CJ said:


> It's all relative. Cheap places have low wages.
> 
> That said, I've looked around, and Pocatello was at the top of the list. Went there, and found it has some "cultural issues" that weren't so attractive, and then there's the harsh winter climate. Not for me, but maybe an option for others.
> 
> ...


You got a problem with the Bigfoot museum in Pocatello, bro?!?!?

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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> I live in the Phoenix area. Yes it is a large city, but that provides many job opportunities. So I can have normal good job and not let my job be slave to living in a mtn bike town. Housing is reasonable considering the job market and the mtn biking is excellent. Better than most people give us credit for and with some adaption to heat and some planning I ride year around. 2-5 times per week all year.


People just don't travel enough, AZ is probably the best place for a mountain biker to live just for the variety of year-round riding available.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I posted this on the Singletracks article but I'll post it here as well.

Hurricane/St. George, Utah

We're still the somewhat undiscovered Utah mtb destination. 

That said, I'll go ahead and claim "world class" trails. Not just 100s of miles of single track but actual bucket list stuff. 

We get year round riding and our local mtb advocacy organization and BLM love to work together to build new stuff. The Cities and County love and appreciate mtbr's and don't treat us as second class citizens. Actually, we pretty much have a seat at the head of the table.

Cost of living is way low and there are plenty of good paying jobs. St. George just announced "tech ridge", a new 155 acre development specifically planned to get tech companies and millenials/kids out of college, a great place to work and make a living.

The area is growing fast because dumbasses like myself keep promoting it  Get in while you can.

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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Silentfoe said:


> I posted this on the Singletracks article but I'll post it here as well.
> 
> Hurricane/St. George, Utah
> 
> ...


I like the area but haven't been in quite some time. I'm also an avid canyoneering guy and it's very close to canyon country. What about summer temps down there? Easy to get up higher out of the heat to ride? Job market?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

WHALENARD said:


> I like the area but haven't been in quite some time. I'm also an avid canyoneering guy and it's very close to canyon country. What about summer temps down there? Easy to get up higher out of the heat to ride? Job market?


Summers can hit 110ish. That's hot. We ride in the mornings. I live 1800 feet higher than Hurricane and my temps are about 10 degrees cooler. Cedar City and a lot of trails at higher elevations are less than an hour away. It is currently 65 degrees and sunny. I'll take that.

I'm retired so I can't comment on personal experience with the job market. I do watch the news and I know that our area is doing well in regards to unemployment.

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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Yes, but housing isn't the only factor in cost of living calculations. That area is pretty cheap though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


With a 30-40 min commute to Ashville depending on job field you can do well. This looks like my retirement plan.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Many of these places being mentioned sound great to research for retirement.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Just saw an article that Colorado Springs is the number one destination in the country for millennials who are relocating. That can be good or bad depending on your perspective, but it's probably safe to say the days of hardcore conservatism and religious wackos are numbered in this town. 

Our trail system has grown immensely in recent years, and the city is putting together plans for yet another major expansion. No matter how good the trails are, if/when my house appreciates another $200K, I'm GTFO. I can always come back in live in a van down by the river for a week at a time if I want to ride the trails. 


.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Great thread. To me, a great MTB town means year-round riding. Period. Only my opinion, of course, but I’m not a winter sports person.

I live in Phoenix. Do I think it’s the most awesome place ever? No. It’s huge. It’s hot. And we definitely don’t need more people. But the riding is incredible and it happens 12 months a year.

I was in Brevard last summer for a week of riding and scouting a potential move. Since it rained nearly the whole time, I had plenty of opportunity to research real estate. Didn’t seem all that cheap to me.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Blatant said:


> Great thread. To me, a great MTB town means year-round riding. Period. Only my opinion, of course, but I'm not a winter sports person.
> 
> I live in Phoenix. Do I think it's the most awesome place ever? No. It's huge. It's hot. And we definitely don't need more people. But the riding is incredible and it happens 12 months a year.
> 
> I was in Brevard last summer for a week of riding and scouting a potential move. Since it rained nearly the whole time, I had plenty of opportunity to research real estate. Didn't seem all that cheap to me.


People who love to fat bike will argue all day what constitutes "year-round riding".

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Cerberus75 said:


> With a 30-40 min commute to Ashville depending on job field you can do well. This looks like my retirement plan.


For Brevard Bentonville is 10% cheaper and still has a 20% higher per capita than Ashville. Both are affordable but Bentonville is unique in that regard.

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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> People who love to fat bike will argue all day what constitutes "year-round riding".
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


...and they'd be wrong.


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## flipnidaho (Aug 10, 2004)

Boise.


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## 2melow (Jan 5, 2004)

_CJ said:


> Just saw an article that Colorado Springs is the number one destination in the country for millennials who are relocating. That can be good or bad depending on your perspective, but it's probably safe to say the days of hardcore conservatism and religious wackos are numbered in this town.
> 
> Our trail system has grown immensely in recent years, and the city is putting together plans for yet another major expansion. No matter how good the trails are, if/when my house appreciates another $200K, I'm GTFO. I can always come back in live in a van down by the river for a week at a time if I want to ride the trails.
> 
> .


I'm up in Fort Collins and same thing. Colorado State University is here and many of the graduates have ended up staying. Doing what, I have no idea but I'm watching my friends rent out one of their houses - 1600 sq/ft 3 bedroom 1960's ranch for $2,100/month and I wonder how much longer this area can sustain it.

We love Fort Collins, but it's definitely been discovered and it's no longer cheap! Not sure where we would go, glad we own a house though. The weather isn't bad (wind at times suucks) and we do like change of seasons. Also, Wyoming is an hour north and is a hidden gem of amazing trails where the only other living things seen are deer and moose.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Idyllwild, CA is really cheap. With 57 miles of navigable singletrack currently. They expect to grow to 75 miles by end of next year. If you can ride diverse Idyllwild... you can ride virtually anywhere.


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## avlfj40 (Jul 14, 2008)

Crankout said:


> I was thinking about NC. I'm assuming Asheville is getting pricey too?


Getting? It has been for at least 10 years. The majority of jobs here are in the service industry. If you are lucky enough to have a job in manufacturing or tech the pay will be less than in most other parts of NC because employers know you really don't have anywhere else to go in the greater Asheville area.

The median home price in Bouncombe County (Asheville) is $266K while the median household income is $46K. What is not seen in these numbers is the fact that there is a housing shortage here and the average cost of new construction is north of $300K for a 12-1500 sft home on .1 acres in the city. You can get a little lower cost in the county but there are other issue there (HOA or no zoning and a trailer next door).

I've been in this area since 2002 and would not live anywhere else in the Southeast, but NC does a pisspoor job of investing in education and the environment.


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## Tiller15 (Jan 8, 2014)

Chattanooga, TN!!


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## avlfj40 (Jul 14, 2008)

Chattanooga is nice but the summers are hot and humid. It does have quite a bit of manufacturing and tech jobs.


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## Tiller15 (Jan 8, 2014)

b-roken said:


> Chattanooga is nice but the summers are hot and humid. It does have quite a bit of manufacturing and tech jobs.


No hotter than anywhere else in the south. Can definitely get muggy and hot though. I just ride in the early mornings in the hottest parts of the year.. But we have TONS of trails in and around the city, including tons of gravel options out near the Ocoee.

But, don't anyone bother coming, we're full


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Silentfoe said:


> People who love to fat bike will argue all day what constitutes "year-round riding".
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Even when I lived in Prescott there is no way I'd ever ride in the desert in 110 degree temps. That's where cold destinations that freeze are "just as much" year-round as Phoenix, but there are far better milder climates (than Phoenix) that don't get anywhere near as "wintry" as the far North. If you love the heat, go to Phoenix, they have it, but don't wimp out and use A/C!


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Even when I lived in Prescott there is no way I'd ever ride in the desert in 110 degree temps. That's where cold destinations that freeze are "just as much" year-round as Phoenix, but there are far better milder climates (than Phoenix) that don't get anywhere near as "wintry" as the far North. If you love the heat, go to Phoenix, they have it, but don't wimp out and use A/C!


Agreed. Many areas have extremes of weather, or even four distinct seasons. People who live there adapt and overcome. Either riding in the cooler hours or by owning a bike capable of riding on the snow.

I've found that I'd rather have dirt than snow (even though I own a kickass fat bike and love snow) and I don't mind driving an hour to alter my climate.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richde said:


> People just don't travel enough, AZ is probably the best place for a mountain biker to live just for the variety of year-round riding available.


 "Cept for that desert, 115 F in the shade and no water, awesome. I get there are mountains, forest and elevation, just not my cup of tea. Try MA, more temperate, forests and dirt, fat biking in the winter.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Cayenne_Pepa said:


> Idyllwild, CA is really cheap. With 57 miles of navigable singletrack currently. They expect to grow to 75 miles by end of next year. If you can ride diverse Idyllwild... you can ride virtually anywhere.


How are the trails since the fire? I miss The Spring Challenge. I'd live there in a minute if the commute wasn't so loooong.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Vader said:


> How are the trails since the fire? I miss The Spring Challenge. I'd live there in a minute if the commute wasn't so loooong.


Idyllwild Cycling - Home

Looks like Spring Challenge won't happen this year. May Valley trails aren't yet complete.

There is actually trail work scheduled for this Saturday on Coffee Pot & Spine trails.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

leeboh said:


> "Cept for that desert, 115 F in the shade and no water, awesome. I get there are mountains, forest and elevation, just not my cup of tea. Try MA, more temperate, forests and dirt, fat biking in the winter.


That's why you go to higher elevation areas (6,000'+) in the summer, or just HTFU...and I can almost guarantee you do not know elevation as well as you think you do.

I live in Vegas, did not grow up here, and it's not that bad. For a couple months in the summer you start a little earlier, ride a little easier, and a little shorter duration. But guess what I've been doing while you've been shoveling your driveway...that's right, riding my bikes.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Vader said:


> How are the trails since the fire? I miss The Spring Challenge. I'd live there in a minute if the commute wasn't so loooong.


Everything recovered, with some nice new trails.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richde said:


> That's why you go to higher elevation areas (6,000'+) in the summer, or just HTFU...and I can almost guarantee you do not know elevation as well as you think you do.
> 
> I live in Vegas, did not grow up here, and it's not that bad. For a couple months in the summer you start a little earlier, ride a little easier, and a little shorter duration. But guess what I've been doing while you've been shoveling your driveway...that's right, riding my bikes.


 Not much elevation in eastern MA. At all. 19 F at the start of my 17 mile commute on 40 mm studded tires, that's HTFU. And fat biking each weekend. I tend to overheat, so for me, 50 is better than 90. Enjoy the desert, pedal on. I guess it's all what you are used to.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

richde said:


> That's why you go to higher elevation areas (6,000'+) in the summer, or just HTFU...and I can almost guarantee you do not know elevation as well as you think you do.
> 
> I live in Vegas, did not grow up here, and it's not that bad. For a couple months in the summer you start a little earlier, ride a little easier, and a little shorter duration. But guess what I've been doing while you've been shoveling your driveway...that's right, riding my bikes.


Quality of life comes into it, heading up to Flagstaff every weekend in the fall, spring and summer when it's 2hrs away burns up a lot of your life and makes it difficult to do anything else, not mention riding during the week. In the brief winter months, Phoenix becomes a decent riding area with many parks and trails within driving range, but doesn't come close to a more forested area with milder climates where you don't have to drive so far and spend days driving to escape. While you "can" escape to those higher elevations, the further you are the less practical this becomes. Getting in and out of places like the Bay Area just gets ridiculous if you are trying to head to the hills. It becomes something in theory rather than reality unfortunately. Living east of Sacramento gave me multiple options to head to the hills in short order, same thing with Prescott and the national forest on 3 sides of the city, some of the lower "high" places like Santa Fe and Flag get a joke of winter compared to places in CO and UT, snow is literally off the streets in hours after a dump due to sublimation and the ample sunshine makes it much easier than cold grey places up north or the frigid stuff in Idaho/Montana.

Quality of life may take a huge hit if you are depending on the "i can just drive for 2 hours". Might be ok, but some of these places are better to visit than live IMO.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ Agreed, it's a mt bike town but I have to drive 2 hrs? My trails are 100 yds from my driveway.


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## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

I recommend this book to anyone who is contemplating life in any yet-to-be-discovered bike/ski town. It's also a good read for those of use who are already living in one that's been discovered.

https://www.amazon.com/Brave-New-West-Morphing-Speed/dp/0816524742


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Quality of life comes into it, heading up to Flagstaff every weekend in the fall, spring and summer when it's 2hrs away burns up a lot of your life and makes it difficult to do anything else, not mention riding during the week. In the brief winter months, Phoenix becomes a decent riding area with many parks and trails within driving range, but doesn't come close to a more forested area with milder climates where you don't have to drive so far and spend days driving to escape. While you "can" escape to those higher elevations, the further you are the less practical this becomes. Getting in and out of places like the Bay Area just gets ridiculous if you are trying to head to the hills. It becomes something in theory rather than reality unfortunately. Living east of Sacramento gave me multiple options to head to the hills in short order, same thing with Prescott and the national forest on 3 sides of the city, some of the lower "high" places like Santa Fe and Flag get a joke of winter compared to places in CO and UT, snow is literally off the streets in hours after a dump due to sublimation and the ample sunshine makes it much easier than cold grey places up north or the frigid stuff in Idaho/Montana.
> 
> Quality of life may take a huge hit if you are depending on the "i can just drive for 2 hours". Might be ok, but some of these places are better to visit than live IMO.


There are other cities in the SW, you know. Personally, it takes me 45 minutes to get to a trailhead at 6,500', and I still ride at lower elevation during the summer, just not as fast, or for as long.

I will continue doing what I'm doing, riding my bikes year round, and not having to buy a specialized bike for it either. Once I experienced true year round riding (in Japan), everything else is inferior.

We also don't do baby sized 8-10 mile loops, but that's a subject for a different thread.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Will check it out but being from 2007 it is already 10-12 years out of date and there has been huge growth since then as well. I wonder if there is a revised edition or plans for one. Moab, Crested Butte, etc. have changed considerably since 2007. What I see as the biggest threat to a lot of these small towns is not hard core mountain bikers (or climbers or skiers) coming it is the need to dumb down the outdoor experience and appeal to everyone (ie. EBikes / Alpine Slides at Vail, Guided Jeep tours, 4-star hotels, roads that go right up to scenic spots (instead of hiking in), etc.). The number of hard core bikers will always be way less than the total number of people moving to these towns or visiting.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I consider myself a hardcore mountain biker but I love staying in 4-star hotels and Jeeping up to scenic spots. I break the mold.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

There is no MTb town in Canada eh 

Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Picard said:


> There is no MTb town in Canada eh
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Certainly none in BC. I doubt you could even find a decent trail in the whole province.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Every cool place has become too crowded. Where the hell do all these people come from?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Gotta wonder with the trending lack of and unpredictable snow if ski towns won't go through another boom/bust cycle.

Spent a lot of time living in and around Telluride through it's transition. Witnessed the period from living out of my van in the dirt lot hassle free to 20 million dollar log mansions that people spent 2 weeks a year in. Place is absolutely ruined IMO along with just about every other place that has a lift. They're not even on my radar as a place to visit much less move.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

richde said:


> That's why you go to higher elevation areas (6,000'+) in the summer, or just HTFU...and I can almost guarantee you do not know elevation as well as you think you do.
> 
> I live in Vegas, did not grow up here, and it's not that bad. For a couple months in the summer you start a little earlier, ride a little easier, and a little shorter duration. But guess what I've been doing while you've been shoveling your driveway...that's right, riding my bikes.


 Yeah that's right, shovelling my F/N driveway. I really could do without this snow, and if it got too hot in the summer I could ride at night, they do make lights. A fat bike won't work in a lot of environments. Here we have steep icy hills and deep snow, you would be lucky to ride a mile or two.
Anyone thinking of moving to a sleepy hollow town and buying cheap real estate has to remember that if a boom doesn't come you will be selling a home that isn't worth enough to buy one elsewhere. Life can change and you always need a exit plan.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Steep n ice? Snow? Studded tires and grooming works here. Hiker/dog walkers as well as XC ski areas to get our bike on. Back to the OP? Someplace rural. And small. Lots of areas in New England have 100 miles of trails.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

richde said:


> There are other cities in the SW, you know. Personally, it takes me 45 minutes to get to a trailhead at 6,500', and I still ride at lower elevation during the summer, just not as fast, or for as long.
> 
> I will continue doing what I'm doing, riding my bikes year round, and not having to buy a specialized bike for it either. Once I experienced true year round riding (in Japan), everything else is inferior.
> 
> We also don't do baby sized 8-10 mile loops, but that's a subject for a different thread.


Well, if it's say, Tucson, then all of your "above 6500 riding" is compressed to a relatively small area and you are always going in that one direction. It's not like riding out of Durango where you have hundreds of miles of interconnecting trails in the mountains. Again, quality of life IMO. Places like Durango are on the edge of the mountains so you have more pleasant (than winter) weather not far off. If people like the 110° heat and riding when you can only stand an hour or so or where you have to wake up at 4am, more power to you. Some of us go to equally extreme measures in other extreme climates, which is why we know that these other extremes are "no more extreme" than yours. If you are telling me that you always go to that 6500 elevation place for every ride between March and November, then I think I'd get pretty bored pretty fast. I like options, being able to go further and longer, etc. That's what starts to make up some of these MTB destination towns. Where you can ride out of town in multiple directions. I think trail development in AZ is decent, lots of trails, but lets not kid ourselves, many of those trails are in a very extreme environment, or thick urban environment. Getting "out" of this is logistically and practically not possible all the time.

Of course, there's more to QOL than just mountain biking. Maybe you like urban environments, shopping malls, more restaurants, costco, hospitals, family close, etc.


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## 2melow (Jan 5, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Well, if it's say, Tucson, then all of your "above 6500 riding" is compressed to a relatively small area and you are always going in that one direction. It's not like riding out of Durango where you have hundreds of miles of interconnecting trails in the mountains. Again, quality of life IMO. Places like Durango are on the edge of the mountains so you have more pleasant (than winter) weather not far off. If people like the 110° heat and riding when you can only stand an hour or so or where you have to wake up at 4am, more power to you. Some of us go to equally extreme measures in other extreme climates, which is why we know that these other extremes are "no more extreme" than yours. If you are telling me that you always go to that 6500 elevation place for every ride between March and November, then I think I'd get pretty bored pretty fast. I like options, being able to go further and longer, etc. That's what starts to make up some of these MTB destination towns. Where you can ride out of town in multiple directions. I think trail development in AZ is decent, lots of trails, but lets not kid ourselves, many of those trails are in a very extreme environment, or thick urban environment. Getting "out" of this is logistically and practically not possible all the time.
> 
> Of course, there's more to QOL than just mountain biking. Maybe you like urban environments, shopping malls, more restaurants, costco, hospitals, family close, etc.


Yup. We LOVE Tucson in the fall/winter/spring but not sure I could live there full time. Last year in March we pulled our RV and camped 10 days in Oro Valley (Catalina State Park) and it was 95F high temps we were there. In March! I guess maybe you adapt, but 100+ for several months of the year has to be tough for sure.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

When we lived in Tucson we’d either ride at 4am or head up to Summerhaven to do the little alpine loop up there. It was a nice respite from the heat but I recall it being only about 3 miles of trail maybe? Nothing to write home about. 

We’d journey to Flagstaff and Prescott a few times per year too. We definitely had to make a weekend trip out of it; not easy to do as a day trip.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Nat said:


> When we lived in Tucson we'd either ride at 4am or head up to Summerhaven to do the little alpine loop up there. It was a nice respite from the heat but I recall it being only about 3 miles of trail maybe? Nothing to write home about.
> 
> We'd journey to Flagstaff and Prescott a few times per year too. We definitely had to make a weekend trip out of it; not easy to do as a day trip.


4am?!!!

No way.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Silentfoe said:


> 4am?!!!
> 
> No way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


In Phoenix this is rather common, get the lights out and start before the sun comes up, the coolest part of the day. Plan to be off the trails by 9-10am, it's blazing by that time. People who go out and ride in the middle of the day in that summer environment die, no joke. It's nothing to screw around with. Temps sometimes don't get down below 95 or so, but without the sun, it makes a huge difference. Once the sun comes up, better bet getting off the mountain. I do the same thing in the winter now, ride in the dark


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Thank god the smartest dude on the internet is here to tell us how to think. And where to move.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> 4am?!!!
> 
> No way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Way. In summer trailhead parking was full of cars by sunup, empty by 8:00am.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Nat said:


> Way. In summer trailhead parking was full of cars by sunup, empty by 8:00am.


I'm retired. I try not to see any time before 8am 

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> I'm retired. I try not to see any time before 8am


Man, the older I get the less I can sleep. That's why I'm always posting at 2am.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

There's a mole.

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-trails/10-best-us-mountain-bike-towns-lowest-cost-living/2/


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Jayem said:


> In Phoenix this is rather common, get the lights out and start before the sun comes up, the coolest part of the day. Plan to be off the trails by 9-10am, it's blazing by that time. People who go out and ride in the middle of the day in that summer environment die, no joke. It's nothing to screw around with. Temps sometimes don't get down below 95 or so, but without the sun, it makes a huge difference. Once the sun comes up, better bet getting off the mountain. I do the same thing in the winter now, ride in the dark


 So ride like a vampire?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Blatant said:


> Thank god the smartest dude on the internet is here to tell us how to think. And where to move.


Why, thank you! I'm quite flattered.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

tuckerjt07 said:


> It's probably going to be hard to beat Bentonville. There may be some but not many and not by much if at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Simply seeing the thread title and I knew Bentonville and Bella Vista would have to top that list. Hell, you can find a 2,000 sq ft house just north of the border for $50,000 and be 15 mins from a trail head.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

leeboh said:


> So ride like a vampire?


Mainly, the whole "Get up at 3 am on the weekend" part is not compatible with my lifestyle.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Mainly, the whole "Get up at 3 am on the weekend" part is not compatible with my lifestyle.


This. I live where it is hot in the summer and I still hate getting up early. I'm retired. I don't like to see any time before 8am. I just ride easier in the afternoons.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

Rotorua, would be very cheap with exchange rates taken into consideration


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Kinda limited job options though (says the guy in Whangarei!). Same goes for Nelson (NZ), if I could work there I'd move tomorrow. Not sure how the house prices compare internationally, but they seem pretty reasonable compared with the rest of NZ.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

If you want to see a real joke check out salida co. Zero real jobs, housing is insane, 400k for cookie cutter or a 1970s manufactured home... I don’t know what they are thinking. 

The pacific north west has great trails and great jobs in Portland and Tacoma but the housing is expensive but the homes are at least semi worth the money. When compared salida or another po dunk millionaire town it’s hard to beat


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

04 F2000SL said:


> If you want to see a real joke check out salida co. Zero real jobs, housing is insane, 400k for cookie cutter or a 1970s manufactured home... I don't know what they are thinking.
> 
> The pacific north west has great trails and great jobs in Portland and Tacoma but the housing is expensive but the homes are at least semi worth the money. When compared salida or another po dunk millionaire town it's hard to beat


The Californication of Colorado is real. People are fleeing CA in droves, and when they sell their 2 bdrm rancher for $1M+, paying cash for a $400K house in paradise is like hitting the lottery for them.

.


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## miamic70 (Feb 26, 2008)

Don't know where that might be but I can tell you where it's NOT. Miami, FL!


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

In all honestly $400K for a vacation house is fairly affordable for a large part of the population that is older. If you do the math on buying a $400K house in Salida and renting it via ABNB even 50% of the time you can easily cover your mortgage and other expenses. This is becoming more and more common and Salida is only 2 hours from the Springs and 3 from Denver. Having been in Canyon City recently I can easily see the same thing happening now that trails are being built and it becoming a winter riding destination while renting the place in the summer to the hoards of out of state tourists that come for rafting, etc. while we enjoy the high altitude rides. Also, I am 100% tired of the I70 mess and look forward to skiing Monarch more while riding the local trails the next day. 

Also, F Boulder and the front range. Both of these places (and Breck and Winter Park, Crested Butte, Eagle, etc) ARE BUILDING A SHITLOAD OF ****ING TRAILS. And they are awesome, close to town, and connect to much longer backcountry rides. 

Sure the locals may not all like this but it is really mixed. Talk to anyone who owns a restaurant or antique store or something and they LOVE the tourists and know that is where there cash comes from. Even renting a full house ArBnB in these towns is still dirt cheap as compared to going to a resort. And while the tourists may not bring high paying IT / finance jobs they do provide steady blue collar work for others. Just look at how many new landscaping / property management positions have popped up in these towns. Please also realize that the percent of local population with college degrees is tiny in these places as compared to a major city so these jobs make sense. Additionally most people I know work remotley and can spend a large portion of their time in these towns riding during the day and getting most of their work done off hours.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

They actually chose Bella Vista instead of Bentonville and a little more on that area:

There are a ton of lakes there as well which helps out with the humidity. My inlaws live on a lake there, and we spend our summer weekends there constantly. Get up early, ride until noon, then hit the lake/pool all afternoon. It's not a bad life. 

BV currently has the Back40 and Blowing Springs (and I'd argue that the entrance to Phase I Slaughter Pen and Coler are both pretty much in Bella Vista as well). They're about to get another 40 (I've heard possibly 80!?) miles of trail developed on the West side of Interstate 49 supposedly as well. Only problem with BV is that it was originally a retirement golf community, so the politics and tone of the place still tends to be a little elderly, though that's changing as the median age has dropped rapidly over the last 5 years.


NWA is hard to beat.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

_CJ said:


> The Californication of Colorado is real. People are fleeing CA in droves, and when they sell their 2 bdrm rancher for $1M+, paying cash for a $400K house in paradise is like hitting the lottery for them.
> 
> .


I'd wager most of the money coming into Salida is from Texas.

Seems to me it's easier to make a decent living in CO mountain towns right now than it's ever been for blue collar. Salida property prices are fairly recent, I see a couple businesses new to town couldn't even survive one meager winter season though.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

_CJ said:


> The Californication of Colorado is real. People are fleeing CA in droves, and when they sell their 2 bdrm rancher for $1M+, paying cash for a $400K house in paradise is like hitting the lottery for them.
> 
> .


You know, I hear that but don't believe it. Why then is housing in such short supply and prices and rents so high in CA if everyone is fleeing?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

MikeDee said:


> You know, I hear that but don't believe it. Why then is housing in such short supply and prices and rents so high in CA if everyone is fleeing?


"Census Bureau data show California lost just over 138,000 people to domestic migration in the 12 months ended in July 2017."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/cal...ousing-costs-and-taxes-are-fleeing-state.html

I can't even tell you how many people I run into who just moved here from California, even here in Colorado Springs.

.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

People have been fleeing CA from at least as far back as I can remember. Wasn't Bend referred to some time ago not-so-lovingly as "Ben Diego?"


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

hogfly said:


> They actually chose Bella Vista instead of Bentonville and a little more on that area:
> 
> There are a ton of lakes there as well which helps out with the humidity. My inlaws live on a lake there, and we spend our summer weekends there constantly. Get up early, ride until noon, then hit the lake/pool all afternoon. It's not a bad life.
> 
> ...


 A Retirement golf community in AR ? Tough to beat? Hmmm OK. Lets go with that. Deep humid south, bible belt politics. Cheers.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

leeboh said:


> A Retirement golf community in AR ? Tough to beat? Hmmm OK. Lets go with that. Deep humid south, bible belt politics. Cheers.


I'll take clueless for $100 Alex.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

hogfly said:


> They actually chose Bella Vista instead of Bentonville and a little more on that area:
> 
> There are a ton of lakes there as well which helps out with the humidity. My inlaws live on a lake there, and we spend our summer weekends there constantly. Get up early, ride until noon, then hit the lake/pool all afternoon. It's not a bad life.
> 
> ...


Honestly it was a bit pedantic on their part to seperate the two. They both directly abut.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

_CJ said:


> "Census Bureau data show California lost just over 138,000 people to domestic migration in the 12 months ended in July 2017."
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/cal...ousing-costs-and-taxes-are-fleeing-state.html
> 
> ...


I find that article very hard to believe. If everyone is fleeing, then why are the freeways jammed, rents so high, whose buying these homes, etc.? Census bureau data? Isn't that done every 10 years? Pure BS from fake news media CNBC. Sure, folks are leaving, but there must be more coming in to take their place. Believe me, I live in the Bay Area and I tell you it's getting more crowded, not less.


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## PornstarRyan (Mar 22, 2018)

I'd vote for Grand Junction. GJ puts you close to lots of local trails and also gives you access to many of the best MTB trails in the country within a two hour drive. Plus no traffic and practically year-round riding (even if the summer is a little toasty).


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> I find that article very hard to believe. If everyone is fleeing, then why are the freeways jammed, rents so high, whose buying these homes, etc.? Census bureau data? Isn't that done every 10 years? Pure BS from fake news media CNBC. Sure, folks are leaving, but there must be more coming in to take their place. Believe me, I live in the Bay Area and I tell you it's getting more crowded, not less.


The Bay Area gaining population and CA losing population are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the Census makes continual population estimates every year.

Not "fake news" at all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> The Bay Area gaining population and CA losing population are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Also, the Census makes continual population estimates every year.
> 
> ...


Sorry, not buying it.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

MikeDee said:


> I find that article very hard to believe. If everyone is fleeing, then why are the freeways jammed, rents so high, whose buying these homes, etc.?


I don't know dude. Go do your own Google research if you want. As stated by others, one area can gain while others lose, but overall, it's a fact that the state is losing.....at least losing people who are "documented".

.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

_CJ said:


> I don't know dude. Go do your own Google research if you want. As stated by others, one area can gain while others lose, but overall, it's a fact that the state is losing.....at least losing people who are "documented".
> 
> .


Yeah, maybe on that... Most of the state's population are in the major metropolitan areas. I haven't looked, but I don't think LA, San Diego, etc. are losing population. I wish it were true, but don't think it is, at least from my "boots on the ground" perspective. Thinking of fleeing myself, but the Mediterranean like climate here is a plus.


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## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

probably ones that have really crappy LBS


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## tammin (Aug 22, 2006)

Kinda surprised with all these replies that there’s been almost no mention at all of Bend. No trails? Or too expensive? Or? (Just met a visitor on my local trail from there, who said he moved there recently and loves it).


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

tammin said:


> Kinda surprised with all these replies that there's been almost no mention at all of Bend. No trails? Or too expensive? Or? (Just met a visitor on my local trail from there, who said he moved there recently and loves it).


People don't usually say "Bend" and "low cost of living" in the same sentence.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

_CJ said:


> "Census Bureau data show California lost just over 138,000 people to domestic migration in the 12 months ended in July 2017."
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/cal...ousing-costs-and-taxes-are-fleeing-state.html
> 
> ...





the one ring said:


> People have been fleeing CA from at least as far back as I can remember. Wasn't Bend referred to some time ago not-so-lovingly as "Ben Diego?"


People migrate. I never understood the mindset of the local mentality anywhere. People who are born a state and remain there get an attitude towards people that move into that state from other states. Get over it, people migrate.

This rant by no means was directed at either one of you.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

hogfly said:


> They actually chose Bella Vista instead of Bentonville and a little more on that area:
> 
> There are a ton of lakes there as well which helps out with the humidity. My inlaws live on a lake there, and we spend our summer weekends there constantly. Get up early, ride until noon, then hit the lake/pool all afternoon. It's not a bad life.
> 
> ...


We actually have a lot in Bella Vista and have toyed with the idea of relocating and building. Just a matter of actually pulling up our roots; more mine, as the wife is from the NWA/SW MO area. The pay for my career field is pathetic there so it's hard to pull the trigger.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

zgxtreme said:


> We actually have a lot in Bella Vista and have toyed with the idea of relocating and building. Just a matter of actually pulling up our roots; more mine, as the wife is from the NWA/SW MO area. The pay for my career field is pathetic there so it's hard to pull the trigger.


The riding is just getting crazier and crazier here, but taking a major pay cut (unless offset by a major reduction in living cost) would be hard to swallow. The new push in trail building here seems to be toward more challenging technical trails with large drops and other expert level features which has been a welcome development (Semenuk was also recently sighted consulting on the new downhill line in Eureka Springs).


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> People migrate. I never understood the mindset of the local mentality anywhere. People who are born a state and remain there get an attitude towards people that move into that state from other states. Get over it, people migrate.
> 
> This rant by no means was directed at either one of you.


Exactly. At least the native americans have the closest claim toward being able to say "here first", but for everyone else, at some point someone had kids and those kids decided to move somewhere else, so anyone that says anything about other people moving away/to another place can shut the hell up, because it's totally hypocritical. Why was it ok for you/your family back when it happened, but not for other people?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> People migrate. I never understood the mindset of the local mentality anywhere. People who are born a state and remain there get an attitude towards people that move into that state from other states. Get over it, people migrate.
> 
> This rant by no means was directed at either one of you.





Jayem said:


> Exactly. At least the native americans have the closest claim toward being able to say "here first", but for everyone else, at some point someone had kids and those kids decided to move somewhere else, so anyone that says anything about other people moving away/to another place can shut the hell up, because it's totally hypocritical. Why was it ok for you/your family back when it happened, but not for other people?


Agreed. I actually feel kind of sad for people who've never lived anywhere except the same county in which they were born. There's a huge world out there.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Nat said:


> Agreed. I actually feel kind of sad for people who've never lived anywhere except the same county in which they were born. There's a huge world out there.


I was technically moved to another country, but I'm glad I've lived in two differnt worlds. There is no better way to learn, than traveling.

It's really tough to leave Cali, but as I get older, the thoughts of a more simple way of life, its very appealing.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

zgxtreme said:


> We actually have a lot in Bella Vista and have toyed with the idea of relocating and building. Just a matter of actually pulling up our roots; more mine, as the wife is from the NWA/SW MO area. The pay for my career field is pathetic there so it's hard to pull the trigger.


What is your career field if you don't mind me asking. Salaries here very all over the place for quite a few different careers.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

hogfly said:


> The riding is just getting crazier and crazier here, but taking a major pay cut (unless offset by a major reduction in living cost) would be hard to swallow. The new push in trail building here seems to be toward more challenging technical trails with large drops and other expert level features which has been a welcome development (Semenuk was also recently sighted consulting on the new downhill line in Eureka Springs).


Yeah, coming from Oklahoma (OKC) it wouldn't be much of a cost of living adjustment. So the sacrifice would all be in the paycheck.

Fortunately, the in-law's farm is just 20 mins north taking Pea Ridge to the state line so can visit often and remind myself what a true "climb" is.



tuckerjt07 said:


> What is your career field if you don't mind me asking. Salaries here very all over the place for quite a few different careers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Law enforcement. Last summer we stayed in the area a month and a half while on baby leave so I did some research and discovered I'd take almost a 60% cut in pay so we decided to wait on the whole idea lol. Where I am at now our agency has a great relationship with the community and their support and thus we are compensated well above other agencies. So that is a blessing that is hard to leave.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

_CJ said:


> I don't know dude. Go do your own Google research if you want. As stated by others, one area can gain while others lose, but overall, it's a fact that the state is losing.....at least losing people who are "documented".
> 
> .


I dunno. California is a large diverse state. There is ghetto california (Fresno, Bakersfield, Stockton, etc) and then there is the Bay area, L.A. and San Diego. Taking aggregate data can be pretty misleading.

I can believe that people leave California because I am one of them. But I didn't leave because it sucked. I left because of work. The cost of living in non-ghetto California is pretty high too.

But all else equal, I'd love to move back. If you told me that I had a job in San Diego that can cover the cost of living, it would take me less than one second to make that move.

I've lived in the Midwest (IL, OH, IN) and in the South (NC) and for quality of life, California just blows those places away.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

The problem with a lot of these so-called mtb towns is what does the community offer other than good riding? What about medical care, shopping, entertainment, and so on? To me, that means living near a city with a population of at least 80,000 to get these amenities.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

MikeDee said:


> The problem with a lot of these so-called mtb towns is what does the community offer other than good riding? What about medical care, shopping, entertainment, and so on? To me, that means living near a city with a population of at least 80,000 to get these amenities.


 Agreed. I'll add weather as well. Excessive rain, humidity, snow. All deal breakers for me. And if your state bird is an insect, count that one out as well.


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## tammin (Aug 22, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> Agreed. I'll add weather as well. Excessive rain, humidity, snow. All deal breakers for me. And if your state bird is an insect, count that one out as well.


Weather = big Yes! Moved to SF Bay Area 12 years ago from upper Midwest, where I've lived in various places. Besides the crazy beautiful scenery and parks here, the biggest difference really comes down to what I call 'usable days.'

Wisconsin, IL, Michigan - it's either butt ass cold, pissing with rain, or so stinky hot and humid all you want to do is hibernate. Then there's like 2-4 weeks when none of that's happening - they call it summer- and you pretty much have to jam a year's worth of living into a month.

No thanks. I'm good. I really don't need 3000sf anyways - my 1500 Sf rancher with the laundry in the garage does just fine, even at four times the price. For a solid six months we don't even bother checking the weather before we make plans to something outside. And for the other six months any given day can be about as perfect as a day can be, no matter what month it is.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

MikeDee said:


> The problem with a lot of these so-called mtb towns is what does the community offer other than good riding? What about medical care, shopping, entertainment, and so on? To me, that means living near a city with a population of at least 80,000 to get these amenities.


Which is exactly what you get in Bentonville/Bella Vista.

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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

tammin said:


> Weather = big Yes! Moved to SF Bay Area 12 years ago from upper Midwest, where I've lived in various places. Besides the crazy beautiful scenery and parks here, the biggest difference really comes down to what I call 'usable days.'


Living in OC or San Diego my whole life, it's makes me smile to see folks in the SF Bay areas think they have great weather.

People probably aren't mentioning Bend because it's already been overblown and Californianized....high rental rates, silly housing prices, TRAFFIC, fu-fu restaurants and a trail system that's kinda 'meh' if you ask me. I get bored there in a week as so many of the trails are similar.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Which is exactly what you get in Bentonville/Bella Vista.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


A monthly average humidity of 70% too.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> A monthly average humidity of 70% too.


Which is below the national average and in no way tells the story of how it is perceived either.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> Agreed. I'll add weather as well. Excessive rain, humidity, snow. All deal breakers for me. And if your state bird is an insect, count that one out as well.


I grew up in upstate NY. I used to say we had 5 seasons, the 5th being black fly season.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

The number of usable riding days (say above 30 degrees, not raining or snowing, and below 80 and no humidity) is what is driving people to Colorado. In the front range you are looking at 300+ days nice enough to ride (even if you have to hop on the road bike or gravel bike or go higher up to avoid heat). Places further south like Salida can easily top 330 days. No humidity except during rain and zero issues with bugs. I have lived in the Northeast and if you get 150 nice days you are lucky. This of course has led to high housing prices like California.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Which is below the national average and in no way tells the story of how it is perceived either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Bull, 70% average, day after day, month after month, every month. You must be in the employ of the chamber of commerce. Ar. also rates #5 for the worst summer weather.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Bull, 70% average, day after day, month after month, every month. You must be in the employ of the chamber of commerce. Ar. also rates #5 for the worst summer weather.


I didn't disagree with you. However, it is below the national average and is not perceived as muggy here as it would be elsewhere. It seems to escape your simplistic understanding but the level itself does not solely speak to how it is felt.

Most of Arkansas is also a river valley, swamp, or river delta all of which do not apply to this area.

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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm not mad at all about people dogging Phoenix.
The less people here the better; but let's be real. It has a favorable cost of living, no lack of jobs, and despite being a MAJOR use urban area, I have literally 10 major trail systems within 30 minutes drive (15-25 miles) from my house. 
Sonoran Preserve North+ Cave Creek
Sonoran Preserve South
Lake Pleasant trails
White Tanks
Estrella Mtn.
FINS/Pirate trails
Trail 100/Dreamy Draw/North Mtn park
Brown's Ranch
the southern 1/3 of the BCT
Western edge of McDowells (GateWay/Lost Dog)

Maricopa trail passes as close as 20 minutes from my door.

Some state land we call "playgrounds" with 18-20 miles of secret handshake trails is 15 minutes away.
There's also some hiking parks that allow bikes if I need a shakedown ride:
Deem Hills
Thunderbird Park

In total I have easily 300 miles of trail with a half hour in the car. 
If I can drive another 10-20 minutes I can add in 3 more trail systems:
South Mountain
Pemberton
Skyline Park

On a Sunday when traffic is light, Gold Canyon and Hawes are an hour, and it's literally the other side of PHX.

In 90 minutes I can be in Sedona, Prescott, or Payson. 

Tucson and Flag are 2 hours away. 
Yeah, 2 hours isn't something you do on a whim, but it's the *other friggin side of the state, and vastly different than PHX.

There's a few weeks here in summer that are brutal. but it's rather short in comparison to the 9+ months of good, great and stellar weather we enjoy otherwise. I rode today, it was low 70s when I started at 8am, and low 80s at 11:30 when I got done. I got home and went swimming in my 80 degree pool, it was 90F outside. This weekend the forecast is in the 80's. 

There actually isn't that much of the year that truly lives up to the "deathly hot even at midnight" fable. Very few people actually get up and ride at 4am. In the peak of summer I hit the trail at 5am, and can ride until 9-10am. Thats about the time it pushes solidly into the triple digits and the sun is getting intense. You can easily get back out on the trail at 6:30-7pm. 


But by all means, Keep spreading the word: AZ sucks, stay away.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

the one ring said:


> People have been fleeing CA from at least as far back as I can remember. Wasn't Bend referred to some time ago not-so-lovingly as "Ben Diego?"


It is funny, most people I meet are not originally from CA in the first place, very few in fact. What is it that those other Californicated states are complaining about? The influx of money and perhaps gentrification.

It is no different right here in our own backyard. Look at SF for example, Mission District, Third Street, Bayshore....

The people leaving with moola just seem better at managing their finances and taking advantage of a good thing. I wouldn't, mind doing some cashing out myself.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

life behind bars said:


> Bull, 70% average, day after day, month after month, every month. You must be in the employ of the chamber of commerce. Ar. also rates #5 for the worst summer weather.


Are you talking about average humidity throughout the entire day when you say "day after day"? Cause humidity often goes up to 100% at night, that's how you get dew on the grass. So it might drop to 40% during the day to get your average of 70%.

The flip side of high humidity is that the temperature does not vary as much throughout the day. Coming from the midwest, that's something I never got used to in dry Flagstaff. Go out with friends at dinner time in a t-shirt and by last call you need a down parka. I had many frigidly cold rides down out of those hills after sundown. Dressing/packing for a 30-degree temperature swing during your ride is not easy.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ARandomBiker said:


> There's a few weeks here in summer that are brutal. but it's rather short in comparison to the 9+ months of good, great and stellar weather we enjoy otherwise. I rode today, it was low 70s when I started at 8am, and low 80s at 11:30 when I got done. I got home and went swimming in my 80 degree pool, it was 90F outside. This weekend the forecast is in the 80's.


A few weeks in the summer? I just checked weather.gov and it's 98°F tomorrow!

Holy hell.


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## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

PornstarRyan said:


> I'd vote for Grand Junction. GJ puts you close to lots of local trails and also gives you access to many of the best MTB trails in the country within a two hour drive. Plus no traffic and practically year-round riding (even if the summer is a little toasty).


I second this one. I grew up all over Colorado and we'd always bag on GJ (it's very industrial and *******) but compared to just about anywhere else in Colorado it's cheap. Plus you are close to Fruita. And can take day trips to Green River, Moab, Summit County...plus the world largest country music festival!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nat said:


> Agreed. I actually feel kind of sad for people who've never lived anywhere except the same county in which they were born. There's a huge world out there.


 It's called visiting and being a tourist? One doesn't have to quit your jobs, uproot the family, change schools and leave all the extended family to appreciate going somewhere else. Being single? Much easier. I have traveled some, doesn't mean I want to move there. NYC and FL ? Not for me. Lived in Eastern MA my whole life, no desire to leave.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

I have been to Phoenix numerous times (always in the spring).

There are some awesome trails around and it is cheap, BUT:

- It is a huge city and there is absolutely no way to bike or walk around. Everything involves a long drive. You may live near one of the trail systems but everything else would be like an hour drive. There are barely any sidewalks once you get away from the main areas. 

- I have rode some awesome trails in March / April. But even by 10 AM in March it was pushing high 80's, just way too hot for me. The months of May through October are downright dangerous even early in the day.

I don't know how it can be considered a mountain bike town. Its a great town to go to a resort in the Spring or fall but that is about it. For someone like me who likes to be outside all times of day and walk or bike to where I want to go I could never make it work.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

ARandomBiker said:


> I have literally 10 major trail systems within 30 minutes drive (15-25 miles) from my house.


Having to drive to a trail-head is not a selling point, and pretty much disqualifies anyplace as being an "mtb town" imho.

I've probably gotten in my car to ride my bike less than five times in the last decade.

.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Phoenix has a lot of good riding but with 4.5M population I don’t think you can call it a town.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

leeboh said:


> It's called visiting and being a tourist? One doesn't have to quit your jobs, uproot the family, change schools and leave all the extended family to appreciate going somewhere else. Being single? Much easier. I have traveled some, doesn't mean I want to move there. NYC and FL ? Not for me. Lived in Eastern MA my whole life, no desire to leave.


There's still time left. It's never too late to broaden one's horizons.


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## Fluidworks (Oct 3, 2008)

I moved to Knoxville, TN from Southern California. The cost of living is a tiny fraction, the air is clean, no traffic, houses are available for $100k on huge property, and it has amazing cycling network five minutes from downtown. I won't be going back.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

k2rider1964 said:


> People probably aren't mentioning Bend because it's already been overblown and Californianized....high rental rates, silly housing prices, TRAFFIC, fu-fu restaurants and a trail system that's kinda 'meh' if you ask me. I get bored there in a week as so many of the trails are similar.


Let's go line-by-line:

*High rental rates:* yes. Finding anything to rent at any price is a challenge.
*Silly housing prices:* I suppose so. Transplants from the Bay area and Seattle comment on how inexpensive houses are here but if you are wanting to move from rural Idaho it'd be sticker shock. We're waiting for our kids to move out and our house value to break $1M in a few years then might cash out and retire elsewhere.
*Traffic:* Horrible on certain routes at certain times but a far cry from a true big city like SF or Seattle. Knowing local traffic patterns helps since there's almost always an alternate route that flows well. You'd have to be a resident to know those patterns though.
*Fu-fu restaurants:* a good thing. Food choices beyond Olive Garden and Applebees is a plus. Food is expensive in general though. When I travel and think that ski resort meals and airport meals seem cheap, that tells me that I've been paying too much at home. Pints are now $6.50. Hamburgers are $14+. 
*Meh trails:* Yeah, a lot of it is B grade, but there_ is _a lot of it and it keeps growing. There are some really fun trails that I still like a lot so I head that direction. The trails everywhere I've ever lived has gotten to be same-old same-old eventually. 

As far as being a place where one might want to raise a family though, Bend is pretty nice as long as you have adequate income and housing.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

k2rider1964 said:


> Living in OC or San Diego my whole life, it's makes me smile to see folks in the SF Bay areas think they have great weather.


Unless you live very near the coast, it can get very hot in SoCal; too hot for me. Winters are nicer though.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Nat, its called being part of a community. Having a sense of place. Having friends and family close, and knowing many other community members is a great way to live.

Certainly people need to travel, especially internationally, to see the world and get to know and their fellow citizens of the world. But you don't need to move your home to do that.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Jayem said:


> A few weeks in the summer? I just checked weather.gov and it's 98°F tomorrow!
> 
> Holy hell.


Meh. It *might* get to 98 at the airport, where they pull the official data from. It'll be 5-8 degrees cooler than that at virtually every trailhead.
Tomorrow is an anomaly. It's flirting with record highs, and its only 2 days before it returns to 'average' or actually a little below average at 80-85 deg highs.
It'll also be at like 3pm. By 5pm, the sun is setting and it's cooling off nicely. It also won't crack into the 90's until probably 1pm.

Shrug. Not everyone digs Phoenix. Like everything else in life, thats alright. I could have chosen to live basically anywhere with my profession. I chose Phoenix. I'll take extra water and deal with 110F 8 days a week vs 4 layers of clothes and snowpacked (or closed) trails.



_CJ said:


> Having to drive to a trail-head is not a selling point, and pretty much disqualifies anyplace as being an "mtb town" imho.
> 
> I've probably gotten in my car to ride my bike less than five times in the last decade.


driving is required because of the neighborhood I chose. There are plenty of houses that allow for driveway to dirt in PHX.

I would actually say, of my riding group I'm in the minority that I can't pedal out my garage.
Of the 15 or so trail systems I listed in my first post, all but 3 (White Tanks, Estrella, Lake Pleasant) have housing communities within 1 mile of trail access.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

FishMan473 said:


> Nat, its called being part of a community. Having a sense of place. Having friends and family close, and knowing many other community members is a great way to live.
> 
> Certainly people need to travel, especially internationally, to see the world and get to know and their fellow citizens of the world. But you don't need to move your home to do that.


You can find a community anywhere you live, and spending a few days in a place is not the same as living there for years.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Nat said:


> There's still time left. It's never too late to broaden one's horizons.


 Or not. North of Boston guy. Can pedal all day to trails right at the end of my driveway. In several directions. Humid south? Not, " Awesome" desert? No thanks. Not quite the low cost of living. There is something to be said for world class hospitals and education system, 45 minutes form the beach and 2 hrs to skiing. YRMV.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Knoxville does seem like a cool spot. Haven't been there in years. Awesome climbing and great people in Tennessee too. One thing that keeps me west of the continental devide is access to open space. The ability to just get myself out in the middle of nowhere with little effort is very satisfying.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

_CJ said:


> The Californication of Colorado is real. People are fleeing CA in droves, and when they sell their 2 bdrm rancher for $1M+, paying cash for a $400K house in paradise is like hitting the lottery for them.
> 
> .


This couldn't be more true. I am from California, moved to the midwest when I was a kid but still spent summers out there with family. In 2005 my wife and I moved to Denver and after fighting tooth and nail for decent jobs out there, we eventually decided to come back to the midwest. Since 2005 Denver alone has changed so much that I barely recognize it. It's actually really sad. I used to drive to Breckenridge to snowboard with some buddies that lived up there, and the majority of the population was millennials trying to hack it up high so they could be close to the resorts, and mountain hippies. Now it's a giant mess of Audi's with SWorks road bikes on top.

It's sad, I remember we tried to take a family camping trip before we moved out of California and ended up driving home late at night because the campsites were full. Colorado is quickly becoming the same way.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

There is no "one size fits all". Cost of living isn't the same for everyone. You might be retired, have a medical condition or be living mortgage free. However, this is a great place to share things.

Meanwhile, I'm counting my blessings. Within 15 minutes of my house are 3 trail systems. Thirty minutes away are at least 3 more. Then there is "the other side of town" and even the urban core has a couple. Unfortunately, it's hard to ride year round in the Kansas City area.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

leeboh said:


> Or not. North of Boston guy. Can pedal all day to trails right at the end of my driveway. In several directions. Humid south? Not, " Awesome" desert? No thanks. Not quite the low cost of living. There is something to be said for world class hospitals and education system, 45 minutes form the beach and 2 hrs to skiing. YRMV.


Well, okay then. It appears you have everything you could ever want and you're happy.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

WHALENARD said:


> Knoxville does seem like a cool spot. Haven't been there in years. Awesome climbing and great people in Tennessee too. One thing that keeps me west of the continental devide is access to open space. The ability to just get myself out in the middle of nowhere with little effort is very satisfying.


That's one of my biggest beefs with Texas (there are many others though). Everything is owned by someone and you have to pay to use someone's privately-owned land, all of the riding areas are compressed into tiny little spots and it's basically the complete opposite of what you stated, driving hours to get to some little ranch that someone makes you pay to ride or the stuff closer to the cities that is well, in the cities.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ARandomBiker said:


> Meh. It *might* get to 98 at the airport, where they pull the official data from. It'll be 5-8 degrees cooler than that at virtually every trailhead.
> Tomorrow is an anomaly. It's flirting with record highs, and its only 2 days before it returns to 'average' or actually a little below average at 80-85 deg highs.
> It'll also be at like 3pm. By 5pm, the sun is setting and it's cooling off nicely. It also won't crack into the 90's until probably 1pm.
> 
> ...


Apart from the near 100 temps this week, it dips to just above 80 on Friday, then it's back into the 90s for Sunday and Monday, so yeah, it's an extreme environment. I've been there, gotten the (wet) t-shirt, played the game. The lack of cover and abundance of light colored rock reflects a lot of radiation back on you and in the light it can be pretty hard to deal with, your brain is literally boiling in your head and people still die that are fit and hydrated. As you know, many people get rescued and a few die due to exercising in the summer there. It's an extreme environment for most riders and getting into the 80s-90s is not much fun for me, you sweat like a dog (even in dry Arizona) and generally pretty miserable. If you love it and ride it, congrats. It's no more "year round" than where I live in Alaska, where it's in the 50s now, but the 14 hours of sunlight (and growing) makes the temp feel a lot warmer, since the surface and buildings are baking in the sun all day. Dealing with our cold in winter is not for everything though, we like to say there is no wrong weather, just wrong clothing, but just like riding in 100+ temps and dealing with having to wake up at 4am on the weekends, it's not for everyone and it's an extreme environment to deal with.

The thing that I don't agree with is sugarcoating it or misrepresenting it. I know how hot it can be and how it doesn't get below 100 until long in the night and the trend in some spots seems to be not even getting below that during the hottest times at night. I also know that riding at night in those temps is much more do-able and you feel a lot better. Just like us in the winter, you get used to a lot of night-riding, which is fun in it's own right.

Lots of people move to Phoenix to stay indoors most of the time, but if you like to get outdoors and are there for more than just the winter, it's an extreme environment and my hat is off to you for getting out in the summer and dealing with it. If you are used to more moderate climates, AZ has those too, but most people think AZ=Phoenix, when there is so much more like Show Low, The Rim, Payson, Prescott, Flagstaff, Williams, and other little amazing pockets.

Don't put on 4 layers in the cold, that's the newbie mistake, most people over-dress the core and are miserable. I tell you though, it's hard waking up at 9am on the weekend so I can ride when the sun is up and it's warming up, and then hit the brewery on the way back home. Terrible I tell ya


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Jayem said:


> That's one of my biggest beefs with Texas (there are many others though). Everything is owned by someone and you have to pay to use someone's privately-owned land, all of the riding areas are compressed into tiny little spots and it's basically the complete opposite of what you stated, driving hours to get to some little ranch that someone makes you pay to ride or the stuff closer to the cities that is well, in the cities.


I did a month long road trip through Texas in 2003 with my girlfriend. State really runs the gamut of both people and environments. A lot of the small towns were something out of a movie that time forgot many years ago. Lots of boarded up store fronts with nobody around as well. Big Bend on the other hand was phenomenal. Clearest night sky I have ever experienced bar none. Definately wouldn't want to live there. Mountains are my jam.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Well, what do you know. Of the top 100 place to live, #2 is also one of the top mountain bike towns (arguably #1 imho).

https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/best-places-to-live-in-the-us

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jayem said:


> Lots of people move to Phoenix to stay indoors most of the time, but if you like to get outdoors and are there for more than just the winter, it's an extreme environment and my hat is off to you for getting out in the summer and dealing with it. If you are used to more moderate climates, AZ has those too, but most people think AZ=Phoenix, when there is so much more like Show Low, The Rim, Payson, Prescott, Flagstaff, Williams, and other little amazing pockets.


I agree that the Sonaran Desert is an extreme environment but that's a good thing IMO, Phoenix is a blight that has ruined a good chunk of it but if the climate were more moderate the damage would be much worse.

Prescott, Flagstaff, etc. are nice but they don't have the Sonaran Desert which is one of the crown jewels of the SW. Lots of people enjoy "extreme" environments, I'm sure you can relate


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

_CJ said:


> Well, what do you know. Of the top 100 place to live, #2 is also one of the top mountain bike towns (arguably #1 imho).
> 
> https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/best-places-to-live-in-the-us
> 
> .


Although I'd say #2 should be in there, a large percentage of that list I laugh at.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Listen/read carefully all the above posts (except from that randombiker dude). Do NOT think about moving to Phoenix. The sun is hot and the rocks are big and sharp. Now, I’m off to ride SoMo, which I do year-round.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

_CJ said:


> Well, what do you know. Of the top 100 place to live, #2 is also one of the top mountain bike towns (arguably #1 imho).
> 
> https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/best-places-to-live-in-the-us
> 
> .


Coincidentally (or not), #5 on that list is also part of the Northwest Arkansas metroplex.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Jayem said:


> A few weeks in the summer? I just checked weather.gov and it's 98°F tomorrow!
> 
> Holy hell.


Yeah and it will be back to 74 on Thursday and friday. And I have ride planned for 6:15 today and I ride yesterday in 95F temps in the late afternoon. I did not die and it was fun. That was on the way home from work and drive by that place every day.

But yeah it too extreme for most people to ride. Too rough, too many trails, never an off season. It wears you down. Most can't handle it.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> Too rough, too many trails, never an off season. It wears you down. Most can't handle it.


Yeah, seems like just about the time I get sick of the summer night rides, it is "winter" and perfect for riding during the day, and about the time I am sick of the winter it is time for more summer night rides. Gets exhausting, and just as soon as I think I have ridden all of the trails in town, they freaking build more. Ugh! I can't keep up. I need to move or take up golf.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

dirtbyte said:


> Yeah, seems like just about the time I get sick of the summer night rides, it is "winter" and perfect for riding during the day, and about the time I am sick of the winter it is time for more summer night rides. Gets exhausting, and just as soon as I think I have ridden all of the trails in town, they freaking build more. Ugh! I can't keep up. I need to move or take up golf.


Interesting. It's virtually always 50-60 degrees when I ride, year round. Early morning in the summer, late afternoon in the winter, mid-day in the spring and fall....and there are green trees all around every day of the year.

I seriously don't know how you guys handle it, but to each their own.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I used to enjoy riding year-'round but I've come to enjoy having a legit winter. We have a major ski resort right up the road so I take a break from biking.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

_CJ said:


> Interesting. It's virtually always 50-60 degrees when I ride, year round. Early morning in the summer, late afternoon in the winter, mid-day in the spring and fall....and there are green trees all around every day of the year.
> 
> I seriously don't know how you guys handle it, but to each their own.


Many don't understand the temps. on the Front Range. I try to keep it on the downlow to diminish the already huge influx of migrators.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nat said:


> I used to enjoy riding year-'round but I've come to enjoy having a legit winter. We have a major ski resort right up the road so I take a break from biking.


Ditto that. Hobbies to the seasons keeps it fresh and interesting. Fresh tracks in the backcountry are glorious. Bout an hour to the Ocean is pretty sweet too.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Porkchop_Power said:


> ... Please also realize that the percent of local population with college degrees is tiny in these places as compared to a major city so these jobs make sense...


I don't know the current demographics, but when I lived in Summit County (Breck, Keystone, etc) in the late 80's and early 90's we had the highest average level of education per capita of any US county. Almost every one of my ski techs had at least an undergraduate degree and several had advanced degrees. We had a nuclear physicist, a couple of engineers, and a lawyer tuning and renting skis in our shops. Many well-educated folks were opting to take blue collar jobs in order to enjoy the resort lifestyle. Most were young and eventually moved on to pursue their professional careers, but I would imagine that new folks would be coming in and filling their shoes.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Many don't understand the temps. on the Front Range. I try to keep it on the downlow to diminish the already huge influx of migrators.


I prefer to ride at 3pm when it's 95 and the UV index is dialed up to 10 or 11. Why? Because I won't see a soul at Lory or HTMP. I've done rides on Saturdays in the summer where the only people I see are the drunks in their boats on the reservoir.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Interesting. It's virtually always 50-60 degrees when I ride, year round. Early morning in the summer, late afternoon in the winter, mid-day in the spring and fall....and there are green trees all around every day of the year.
> 
> I seriously don't know how you guys handle it, but to each their own.


Most guys can't.. and for dirtbyte if it is under 70 he breaks out the arm warmers and under 60 is full cold weather gear. As for last evening's ride. Yeah it was 100F in Phx, but we survived 23 miles and 2200ft of climbing. Again most simply can't handle it. That is ok with us.


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## tammin (Aug 22, 2006)

Anyone care to weigh in with their vote for an international location, same or similar criteria? Near the ocean and a decent-sized airport. Lots of usable days. Great riding tracks nearby. Low housing cost. Low cost of living. Ideally Italy, maybe Spain or Portugal.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

JoePAz said:


> Most guys can't.. and for dirtbyte if it is under 70 he breaks out the arm warmers and under 60 is full cold weather gear. As for last evening's ride. Yeah it was 100F in Phx, but we survived 23 miles and 2200ft of climbing. Again most simply can't handle it. That is ok with us.


Dude, you're hilarious.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

How about:

South: near Boone, N.C. - plenty of rural inexpensive towns
Midwest: Marquette, MI - maybe more expensive than the rest of U.P. - but that’s like being the tallest midget. 😁
West: in/around Kellogg, ID - not quite discovered yet....but will be soon.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Riding in those conditions don't make you a tough guy, it makes you a masochist. I ride my bike for fun. Pretty green trees, birds singing, and pleasant temperatures make it all the more enjoyable. Why anyone would choose to ride on the blistering heat of a brown, dead desert is beyond.











Yep, brown and dead. Zero wildlife. No one should go there


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

hogfly said:


> Coincidentally (or not), #5 on that list is also part of the Northwest Arkansas metroplex.


Most people see Arkansas and can't get past various assumptions/stereotypes, as evidenced further up. Also, the way the metroplex is laid out is a bit unusual with there not being a big central nucleus so that confuses them as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Most people see Arkansas and can't get past various assumptions/stereotypes, as evidenced further up. Also, the way the metroplex is laid out is a bit unusual with there not being a big central nucleus so that confuses them as well.


I haven't said anything about Bentonville because I'm not sure how to express my mild displeasure for the area. My wife has family there, so I've been down there three times for family get-togethers. I get a real yuppy vibe from the place, its like Boulder with big hair and deep-fried everything. There is a lot of suburban sprawl with ENORMOUS, ugly, wasteful houses. Maybe since the cost of living is relatively low, you can have the average person in a 5000 sq ft house, I don't know. But what's the point?

Its beautiful country. There are reasonable homes here and there. The trail development going on there is very interesting, the moderate number of trails they have now are pretty good and there are plans for a lot more. Personally, I like the climate. And admittedly, maybe its just my progressive values clashing with the hypocritical "christian" southern culture. But that place just doesn't feel right. Downtown Bentonville feels like Pleasantville, it lacks the character and small-businesses I like to see in a "mountain bike town".

Its not an outdoors-persons culture. At least in an over-priced mountain town people are hiking the trails in their Patagonia and Prada gear. So I think that rules it out as a "mountain bike town".

I'm not saying I'm right on this, just my $.02.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Bentonville changed when Uncle Jed, I mean Sam Walton struck gold. If you were in that area 30 years ago it was totally different. Just the change from the 80's to 90's was enormous! The mountain bike scene is all thanks to one of Sam's kids. As a youngster we used to pass through there on 71 highway. I'm glad it brought modern luxuries to that place. Just annoyed at all the traffic on my way south. Timing is everything. Bentonville & Belle Vista aren't a true representative of what Arkansas is.

As for biking there are other places to ride- check out Ouachita Natural Forest

Arkansas does have a good climate. Yes, they have humidity. It takes getting used to. But like Phoenix, you just ride early or late. Cost of living really is inexpensive. Finding a job could be a challenge depending on what you want or are willing to settle for including wage.

One thing I just love about Arkansas and many of the southeast states is the hospitality!

PS- my parents were both born in Arkansas and yes, I like to go bare foot.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

FishMan473 said:


> I haven't said anything about Bentonville because I'm not sure how to express my mild displeasure for the area. My wife has family there, so I've been down there three times for family get-togethers. I get a real yuppy vibe from the place, its like Boulder with big hair and deep-fried everything. There is a lot of suburban sprawl with ENORMOUS, ugly, wasteful houses. Maybe since the cost of living is relatively low, you can have the average person in a 5000 sq ft house, I don't know. But what's the point?
> 
> Its beautiful country. There are reasonable homes here and there. The trail development going on there is very interesting, the moderate number of trails they have now are pretty good and there are plans for a lot more. Personally, I like the climate. And admittedly, maybe its just my progressive values clashing with the hypocritical "christian" southern culture. But that place just doesn't feel right. Downtown Bentonville feels like Pleasantville, it lacks the character and small-businesses I like to see in a "mountain bike town".
> 
> ...


Your criticism of Bentonville is actually extremely valid and shared by many residents of the greater NWA region. It's certainly improving as the Waltons (and various think tanks and subsidiaries of the Waltons) are also spending a lot of money on trying to create a more vibrant culture in downtown as well (building lots of downtown housing, drinking establishments, restaurants, etc..). That being said, it still has a somewhat manufactured feel to it. I always call if Field of Dreams, in that they've built it... and people are coming. It just hasn't been established long enough to develop a truly interesting culture.

That's why I, and a lot of other people, live in Fayetteville which is where the University of Arkansas is located. It has much more of a "funky" vibe and also has its own set of quality trails (though not nearly as many as the Bentonville/BV area, which is only a 25 minute drive away, I would still argue that Mt. Kessler, in Fayetteville, is one of the best trail networks in the whole state with the best history behind it). Fayetteville has the feel of an outdoor town with a pretty serious outdoor culture constantly fueled by the influx of college kids.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

_CJ said:


> Dude, you're hilarious.


Yes he is, he is also right. PERFECT riding conditions for us on Tuesday night.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

dirtbyte said:


> Yes he is, he is also right. PERFECT riding conditions for us on Tuesday night.


I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.

.


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

_CJ said:


> I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.
> 
> .


Just for reference... This is what night riding (we started at 6:30pm - was light out for the first 30-40 minutes of the ride) looks like on a day that hit 100 degrees... Average temp on the ride was 73 degrees. So unbearable.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.
> 
> .


Something tells me you think we are crazy. But it was perfect conditions. In fact eating dinner after the ride outside I had to turn off the fans. It was getting too cold.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

When you live in AZ your body gets used to the heat. The first year there I was miserable. By the third year I wasn’t as bothered by the heat. I have a theory that your body grows more capillaries in the skin to shed heat. When Arizonans visit colder climes they wear down jackets when it’s 60F.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

JoePAz said:


> Something tells me you think we are crazy.


No, I think you're just a bunch of goobs on bicycles, just like the rest of us. There's nothing crazy, or bad ass, or special about riding a bicycle with your buddies on a decidedly average suburban trail.

.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

One of my favorite things to do when on business travel in Scottsdale is to hike up Camelback and hit the peak just before sunrise. It's never been unbearably hot that time of morning, even in the middle of summer. Finding a parking spot can be a challenge, though.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

FishMan473 said:


> I haven't said anything about Bentonville because I'm not sure how to express my mild displeasure for the area. My wife has family there, so I've been down there three times for family get-togethers. I get a real yuppy vibe from the place, its like Boulder with big hair and deep-fried everything. There is a lot of suburban sprawl with ENORMOUS, ugly, wasteful houses. Maybe since the cost of living is relatively low, you can have the average person in a 5000 sq ft house, I don't know. But what's the point?
> 
> Its beautiful country. There are reasonable homes here and there. The trail development going on there is very interesting, the moderate number of trails they have now are pretty good and there are plans for a lot more. Personally, I like the climate. And admittedly, maybe its just my progressive values clashing with the hypocritical "christian" southern culture. But that place just doesn't feel right. Downtown Bentonville feels like Pleasantville, it lacks the character and small-businesses I like to see in a "mountain bike town".
> 
> ...


Bentonville proper I can see how you might form that opinion. When was the last time you visited? There are quite a few small businesses downtown now. The one thing you have to keep in mind is that Bentonville really isn't just Bentonville when people speak about it in terms of biking. You pick up Rogers, Bella Vista, Springdale, Fayetteville and all the other small towns (it's a 25 minute drive from Bella Vista to Fayetteville, the two furthest points from each other). I would however say that this area has an outdoor culture. Everyone I know uses the natural surface trails at least semi-regularly. Add in easy access to world class fishing, some of the best freshwater diving in the US, rock climbing, etc. and you have a large number of people doing outdoor activities.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I want to say it was 2016, and we stayed in Rodgers. Only visited Bentonville for the trails.

I'd be really interested in suggestions for good trails within riding distance of the east side of Rodgers. I'm sure we'll be back soon.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

FishMan473 said:


> I want to say it was 2016, and we stayed in Rodgers. Only visited Bentonville for the trails.
> 
> I'd be really interested in suggestions for good trails within riding distance of the east side of Rodgers. I'm sure we'll be back soon.


Other than the Railyard and Lake Atalanta there isn't anything within riding distance there. Rogers is definitely where I would go for breweries and food but is a novelty for trails.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

the one ring said:


> One of my favorite things to do when on business travel in Scottsdale is to hike up Camelback and hit the peak just before sunrise. It's never been unbearably hot that time of morning, even in the middle of summer. Finding a parking spot can be a challenge, though.


It's always nice escaping SoCal to get away from the crowds.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

_CJ said:


> No, I think you're just a bunch of goobs on bicycles, just like the rest of us. There's nothing crazy, or bad ass, or special about riding a bicycle with your buddies on a decidedly average suburban trail.
> 
> .


 Jeez, you really are something of a jerk, huh? Maybe you're more fun in person.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This thread:

Right turn Clyde.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Blatant said:


> Jeez, you really are something of a jerk, huh? Maybe you're more fun in person.


Nope.

.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Other than the Railyard and Lake Atalanta there isn't anything within riding distance there. Rogers is definitely where I would go for breweries and food but is a novelty for trails.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


As others said, the Railyard and Lake Atalanta are best bet. Railyard is awesome, but it's very susceptible to rain closure. One thing you're close to in East Rogers is Hobbs State Park, which is one of the better XC rides (with some newly developed flow/jump lines on the War Eagle Loop). Definitely have to drive, but it's 20 minutes away and often gets overlooked due to all the newer "flashier" trail development around NWA.


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## demondan (Jul 25, 2008)

Butte Montana


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

The real question is why are po dunk towns with zero opportunity jobs and insane housing price even a thing. 

I’ve even looked at the local Facebook job pages for these towns and nobody seems to be interested in outdoor activities it’s simply locals that would leave if they had two nickels to rub together. 

One guy thought being a hotel desk clerk was a career and many are just people looking for odd jobs like laying visqueen under single mom’s trailers. These aren’t insults but actual fact.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

04 F2000SL said:


> The real question is why are po dunk towns with zero opportunity jobs and insane housing price even a thing.
> 
> I've even looked at the local Facebook job pages for these towns and nobody seems to be interested in outdoor activities it's simply locals that would leave if they had two nickels to rub together.
> 
> One guy thought being a hotel desk clerk was a career and many are just people looking for odd jobs like laying visqueen under single mom's trailers. These aren't insults but actual fact.


Do you mean insanely low or high housing prices? If you're retired like me, you don't need a job.


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## 04 F2000SL (Jun 17, 2008)

The houses are over priced. What should be 120k is 420k

I'm not retired



MikeDee said:


> Do you mean insanely low or high housing prices? If you're retired like me, you don't need a job.


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## onewheelwunder (Nov 8, 2010)

FishMan473 said:


> I want to say it was 2016, and we stayed in Rodgers. Only visited Bentonville for the trails.
> 
> I'd be really interested in suggestions for good trails within riding distance of the east side of Rodgers. I'm sure we'll be back soon.


Have you ever spent anytime in Eureka Springs? It's quite the dichotomy, I like to refer to the area as a bunch of gun toting hippies with Hill Billy tendencies. I love it for vacations, and if you ride motorcycles or fish it's like Shangri-La. Although it would be hard to find work there. I'd think living between Bentonville and Eureka Springs could be just right

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## cbrossman (Mar 23, 2004)

04 F2000SL said:


> The houses are over priced. What should be 120k is 420k
> 
> I'm not retired


A house is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it; no more, no less.

I'm not clear on the meaning of your previous comment, but I suspect I live it the kind of town you attempting to describe ... Durango.
But beyond relatively expensive housing (not Telluride or Limon), people move and remain here for the outdoor opportunities, not matter what the financial impacts are.

I believe that if the OP did not qualify their question with affordable, which is clearly a relative term, Durango would be all over these posts and for good reason. 
It is expensive because people want to live here, supply and demand, and not just because it has some of the best mountain biking available.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

cbrossman said:


> A house is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it; no more, no less.
> 
> I'm not clear on the meaning of your previous comment, but I suspect I live it the kind of town you attempting to describe ... Durango.
> But beyond relatively expensive housing (not Telluride or Limon), people move and remain here for the outdoor opportunities, not matter what the financial impacts are.
> ...


Tourist towns always have high priced housing. They attract wealthy folks that buy vacation homes. A place like Oakridge OR isn't a tourist town and has low priced housing; more or less the definition of a podunk town with few job opportunities, though I've never been there.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Affordable is a very relative term as well. Coming from a large city $400K is extremely affordable and most people can easily pay cash for such a house after cashing out equity on a home they have owned for just a few years. Even in the poorest area you can't build new for less than $200K for a standalone house. While labor may be cheaper materials costs are the same or even more in remote locations. The only reason that there are sub $200K homes anywhere is that the population is declining and there is more supply than demand. In the front range of Colorado, including water tap fees and other development fees, the absolute minimum to build and sell a single family home is now around $350K if you are very far from a downtown area and land is cheap.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

onewheelwunder said:


> Have you ever spent anytime in Eureka Springs? It's quite the dichotomy, I like to refer to the area as a bunch of gun toting hippies with Hill Billy tendencies. I love it for vacations, and if you ride motorcycles or fish it's like Shangri-La. Although it would be hard to find work there. I'd think living between Bentonville and Eureka Springs could be just right
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Main problem with Eureka is lack of economy. Other than that, it's a pretty unique charming place. On top of that, they're opening 6 new legitimate downhill runs at Lake Leatherwood there which are intended to make it the top downhill destination between the Applachians and the Rockies. Semenuk has been sighted at the builds consulting on the designs.

They're also developing a whole other trail system there on the site of the Greaf Passion Play. Definitely a cool town, if you can find work or work remotely. Crazy, eclectic population. One of my best friends is from there, so I've spent a lot of time hanging with the locals.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Porkchop_Power said:


> Affordable is a very relative term as well. Coming from a large city $400K is extremely affordable


IMO, this is crazy as fk. Housing has gone absolutely ballistic in most places and families that could afford a house 20 years ago have no real hope of doing so anymore. These same type of families are not making 2-3x what they did back then, but the houses cost 2-3x more.


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## Awshucks (Apr 14, 2013)

hogfly said:


> As others said, the Railyard and Lake Atalanta are best bet. Railyard is awesome, but it's very susceptible to rain closure. One thing you're close to in East Rogers is Hobbs State Park, which is one of the better XC rides (with some newly developed flow/jump lines on the War Eagle Loop). Definitely have to drive, but it's 20 minutes away and often gets overlooked due to all the newer "flashier" trail development around NWA.


We stayed in Rogers during spring break this year in lake Atlanta and had an absolute blast riding at Hobbs state park although war eagle trail was closed

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

Porkchop_Power said:


> Affordable is a very relative term as well. Coming from a large city $400K is extremely affordable and most people can easily pay cash for such a house after cashing out equity on a home they have owned for just a few years...


had that is so freaking funny and out of touch. $400k is ALOT of money and most people don't have that kind of cash or equity. Alot of people have had any equity wiped out in the last 10 years. I know I do. If I am lucky I am at ZERO. If not I am still negative. $350k for new single family home around here is not even close to being true. It is ALOT less. And I love in a big city of jobs and lots of Mtb trails all over.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

JoePAz said:


> had that is so freaking funny and out of touch. $400k is ALOT of money and most people don't have that kind of cash or equity. Alot of people have had any equity wiped out in the last 10 years. I know I do. If I am lucky I am at ZERO. If not I am still negative. $350k for new single family home around here is not even close to being true. It is ALOT less. And I love in a big city of jobs and lots of Mtb trails all over.


A lot. Two words. Thank you.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> A lot. Two words. Thank you.


Grammar zea lot.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Nat said:


> Grammar zea lot.


Not to derail, but we don't know each other. Not many of us do. Our only way to communicate is through writing. When you can't spell or use proper grammar, you come across as less than intelligent. Are you less than intelligent? Are you good with other people thinking you are a moron based solely on how you write? I'm not. You shouldn't be either.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Silentfoe said:


> Not to derail, but we don't know each other. Not many of us do. Our only way to communicate is through writing. When you can't spell or use proper grammar, you come across as less than intelligent. Are you less than intelligent? Are you good with other people thinking you are a moron based solely on how you write? I'm not. You shouldn't be either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I agree with you (but I'm funnier).


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Nat said:


> I agree with you (but I'm funnier).


Most likely true.

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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Average home price in America can vary from 200-285k
Average income for couples- $118k
Average income for single- $35k

Rule of thumb- income x 2 to 2.5 = how much house you can afford.

Where do you fall?

Here are my sources-

New home price-
https://www.census.gov/construction/nrs/pdf/uspricemon.pdf

Existing home prices-
https://ycharts.com/indicators/sales_price_of_existing_homes

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_existing_singlefamily_home_average_sales_price

Average and Median Cost for A Pre-owned (Used) Home in The United States

Average Sales Price of Houses Sold for the Unites States-
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS

Average Income-
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...4/average-american-household-income/93002252/

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/10/30/heres-the-average-american-household-income-how-do.aspx

Earnings at every age-
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/24/how-much-americans-earn-at-every-age.html


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

pitdaddy said:


> Rule of thumb- income x 2 to 2.5 = how much house you can afford.


That rule may be close to how much of a loan someone might be approved for, but it's far in excess of what most people should spend.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

coke said:


> That rule may be close to how much of a loan someone might be approved for, but it's far in excess of what most people should spend.


While I do agree with you statistics show a couples annual income is about half the average price.

Back to the question of "MTB town with lowest cost of living", are we talking mtb only? I'd rather be in a ho-hum place not known for any one thing in particular with a decent mtb community/club.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

That rule of thumb is way low and was tailored to a much higher interest rate environment. Rule of thumb now is probably closer to 4x income with 5x income in higher cost areas. There is also a huge difference where property taxes are low vs. high. A $400K mortgage (on a $500K house with 20% down) at 4.625% (latest average rate per FNMA) is only $2057 per month. Add $400 for taxes and insurance per month and it is still less than $2500 per month. Using the 35% of gross income for housing (what most mortgage companies use) this is only a $85K household income.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

coke said:


> That rule may be close to how much of a loan someone might be approved for, but it's far in excess of what most people should spend.


Are you saying that if you make $50K/year then you should spend no more than $100K for a house?


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

That is why the 2 to 2.5 rule is absolutely wrong. Using 4 to 5x it is $200K to $300K which is very doable on a $50K salary. Being in the finance industry I see these numbers all the time. Also, the absolute biggest issue (aside having $100K in loan debt for a liberal arts degree) is having a $600-$800K car payment per month because someone thought the needed a $50K new truck or car. And yes many places will approve people with $30K incomes for this type of car payment with 12% interest or more.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Which car?












I think I need it.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Nat said:


> Which car?





Porkchop_Power said:


> $600-$800*K* car payment per month


Damn, not a car &#8230; an F-35?


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

I thought the rule of thumb was that monthly housing expenses should not exceed x% of your monthly income, where "expenses" include principal + interest, hazard insurance, property taxes and (if applicable) mortgage insurance? And "x%" I believe was 25% way back when we bought our house.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Silentfoe said:


> Not to derail, but we don't know each other. Not many of us do. Our only way to communicate is through writing. When you can't spell or use proper grammar, you come across as less than intelligent. Are you less than intelligent? Are you good with other people thinking you are a moron based solely on how you write? I'm not. You shouldn't be either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Then I must suggest that you actually use proper grammar in your posts. By the criteria you laid out yourself, in the above post, you come across as less than intelligent.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, but 35% is what is usually used.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Obviously prices vary depending on where you are in each state, but this is a nice overview of the salary needed to afford the median priced home in each state.

I found this online at
https://www.vividmaps.com/2018/04/salary-need-afford-average-home-state-2018.html


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Good chart and makes sense. Really goes to show how the coasts and mountain west have a much higher cost of living then the middle of the country.


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## zgxtreme (Mar 25, 2007)

Love being in a green state!


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Nat said:


> Are you saying that if you make $50K/year then you should spend no more than $100K for a house?


Yes roughly, but that's just my opinion.

*Average person:*

Car loan(s)
Credit card debt with high interest
Little to no cash savings or emergency funds
Nicer house than really needed that takes a large portion of their income
Probably either saving no money for retirement or just doing the minimum to get a company 401k match

*My thoughts*

Drive a modest car. It's honestly hard to believe someone would spend $50k on a truck.
Have at least 6 months of expenses of cash saved to get you through tough times if needed.
Avoid high interest debt. If you don't have cash for something, don't buy it.
Live in a modest house. 
Put the max allowed in your retirement account. I believe the 401k limit is $18,500 for 2018.

In my experience, having your finances in order so you aren't living paycheck to paycheck results in a far greater quality of life. That sense of stability and lack of worry will make you happier than any material thing you can buy.

I'm personally making some of these sacrifices now so I don't have to work my entire life. Hoping to retire while I'm still young and healthy enough to enjoy life.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Hmmm, I agree with your thoughts overall but I didn't think one could even find a house to buy for <$100K any more. Where I live, if there was such a house available it would be in pretty rough shape or in a very undesirable area.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

So back to the original question of what town has the lowest cost of living?

Pretend you have to pay cash for everything but your house. And pretend you have to come up with 20% down payment on that house. Now where would you go?

I'm not going to derail this thread trying to teach someone how to spend their allowance.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

coke said:


> Yes roughly, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> *Average person:*
> 
> ...


But I'm entitled to that 3000sq ft house & Ferrari F430!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

sgltrak said:


> Obviously prices vary depending on where you are in each state, but this is a nice overview of the salary needed to afford the median priced home in each state.
> 
> I found this online at
> https://www.vividmaps.com/2018/04/salary-need-afford-average-home-state-2018.html
> ...


Interesting, but not even remotely accurate. Who buys a house that expensive with 10% down? "Average" houses should be second or third homes, with far more than 10% equity in them. Kind of smells like that USA Today article from a few years ago that said the American dream requires a $130K salary, which is of course absolutely ridiculous.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Po Dunk. Is that towns that have neighborhoods that smell like skunk all the time?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

One of the interesting things about CA vs. CO is that wage growth in CO is more or less stagnant. 

While home prices in the Front Range aren’t Bay Area level yet, people are buying them with a lot less salary.

Something has to give eventually. 


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Interesting, but not even remotely accurate. Who buys a house that expensive with 10% down? "Average" houses should be second or third homes, with far more than 10% equity in them. Kind of smells like that USA Today article from a few years ago that said the American dream requires a $130K salary, which is of course absolutely ridiculous.


This is a simple comparison and not meant to figure out how much you can afford. Seems reasonable to me. It pulls the average house price in each state and does a simple calculation on salary based on some canned formulas. Generally this is another way to look at average home price per state. It shows some states have much higher average home prices. That said I not sure if they are using "average" or "median" Median is actually a better number since average can be skewed by a few really expense homes.

What I am surprised is how expensive Colorado has become.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't care what the map says, I will NOT move to Ohio.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

sgltrak said:


> Obviously prices vary depending on where you are in each state, but this is a nice overview of the salary needed to afford the median priced home in each state.
> 
> I found this online at
> https://www.vividmaps.com/2018/04/salary-need-afford-average-home-state-2018.html
> ...


This map needs average 2 and 1 person household income to have any utility.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

JoePAz said:


> What I am surprised is how expensive Colorado has become.


We're all surprised. Anyone who wants to suggest inflation is low isn't paying attention. Restaurant prices have damn near doubled in the last five years, and real estate is through the roof.

As I said before, the Californication of Colorado is real.

.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

_CJ said:


> We're all surprised. Anyone who wants to suggest inflation is low isn't paying attention. Restaurant prices have damn near doubled in the last five years, and real estate is through the roof.
> 
> As I said before, the Californication of Colorado is real.
> 
> .


Yep, I moved back to Northern Colorado from San Diego 6 years ago. I thought I was coming back to lower prices, not! The restaurant pricing in Colorado is on par with California yet the portions are smaller. The real estate is also the roof. Rents are higher in Colorado than California. The only thing that I've noticed that is lower in Colorado from California is gas prices.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

sgltrak said:


> Obviously prices vary depending on where you are in each state, but this is a nice overview of the salary needed to afford the median priced home in each state.
> 
> I found this online at
> https://www.vividmaps.com/2018/04/salary-need-afford-average-home-state-2018.html
> ...


For Washington State, that high cost mostly comes from three counties around Seattle. The rest of the state is much cheaper. Especially east of the Cascades and the coast.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

_CJ said:


> We're all surprised. Anyone who wants to suggest inflation is low isn't paying attention. Restaurant prices have damn near doubled in the last five years, and real estate is through the roof.
> 
> As I said before, the Californication of Colorado is real.
> 
> .


As is the Californication of Washington. Well, at least the Seattle area.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Curveball said:


> For Washington State, that high cost mostly comes from three counties around Seattle. The rest of the state is much cheaper. Especially east of the Cascades and the coast.


That's generally true of all the States. Highest prices around the biggest cities or in tourist locations while the rest of the State is reasonable.

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

It makes sense to me. The more desirable a place is to live the more expensive it is to live there.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nat said:


> It makes sense to me. The more desirable a place is to live the more expensive it is to live there.


Not true in Colorado. I do a fairly regular real estate search for the entire state, and the entire state is significantly more expensive than other states I do similar searches on.

It's getting harder and harder to justify living here. On one hand, our house is becoming a retirement nest egg because it's appreciating so quickly. On the other hand, the smart money cashes out before the crash.

Add in the insanely priced health insurance I'm forced to buy, because I'm self employed and more reasonably priced plans have been outlawed for people my age, and it's even harder to stay. Lets not even get into the overcrowding and overwhelmed/crumbling infrastructure.

.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Colorado as a whole is desirable, no? More than say, Mississippi?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nat said:


> Colorado as a whole is desirable, no?


No. Without getting into a debate about specific locations, I know of plenty of places in other states that dollar for dollar are far more "desirable", unless maybe legal weed is your primary factor in desirability.

.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

What about someplace like Las Vegas / Henderson, NV area? I would imagine it's a large enough to cover all the range of housing, jobs, etc.?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

_CJ said:


> No. Without getting into a debate about specific locations, I know of plenty of places in other states that dollar for dollar are far more "desirable", unless maybe legal weed is your primary factor in desirability.


I'll have to ponder that a bit.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

_CJ said:


> No. Without getting into a debate about specific locations, I know of plenty of places in other states that dollar for dollar are far more "desirable", unless maybe legal weed is your primary factor in desirability.
> 
> .


Which I blame as a huge part of the influx in population growth. Come on people get a life. Moving to a state because of the legalization of weed, really? What gets me about living here is the amount of out of state plates I see with drivers smoking openly. It's like they think they're cool to do so. What they apparently don't know is they are susceptible to getting a driving under the influence ticket, just like alcohol.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Which I blame as a huge part of the influx in population growth. Come on people get a life. Moving to a state because of the legalization of weed, really? What gets me about living here is the amount of out of state plates I see with drivers smoking openly. It's like they think they're cool to do so. What they apparently don't know is they are susceptible to getting a driving under the influence ticket, just like alcohol.


The rapid growth in CO's population started well before marijuana became legal. It's increased by 800,000 people since 2007. 1,300,000 since 2000.

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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Le Duke said:


> The rapid growth in CO's population started well before marijuana became legal. It's increased by 800,000 people since 2007. 1,300,000 since 2000.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know, but the legalization has certainly added to the rapid growth.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> The rapid growth in CO's population started well before marijuana became legal. It's increased by 800,000 people since 2007. 1,300,000 since 2000.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That sounds very much like Washington too. Where do all these people come from?

I suspect that we're seriously overpopulating this planet.


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## shamrok (Aug 2, 2012)

Hobbs... damn, now I want to go to Hobbs! 

I'll gladly drive past Slaughter Pen/Back40 to have Hobbs for myself for a few hours.


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## chuck80442 (Oct 4, 2009)

I listened the Singletracks podcast last week, and just stumbled upon this thread and read through the whole thing...and I find it hard to believe that, other than a quick mention of Albuquerque, New Mexico is nowhere to be found.

Santa Fe is expensive, but outside of that there are towns up and down the Rio Grande Valley that are a million times cheaper than Colorado and rideable year round. Crazy drought this winter allowed me to ride nonstop here in Taos. This isn't normal, but even in a big snow year I can head south a few hours and ride, plus there's Colorado just north for summer and Southern Utah just a half day's drive away.

Jobs are tough, which is why this place is still relatively empty, which is kind of weird when you consider that it's tucked between the fat wallets of Texas and Colorado, but if you can swing it you'll never look back. I grew up in San Diego AND a mountain town in Colorado (Fraser/Winter Park) and I'd never go back to either. Folks here think Taos is expensive, but houses can easily be found for under $200k if you're not attached to big and fancy and new, and you can bike, hike, raft, ski and all the rest to your heart's content.

New Mexico has a rough edge, and tons of poverty, but the climate is relatively easy (no humidity!) (only crazy hot way down south) and varied, as is the landscape, and the food is the best in America IMO. If you can tone down your expectations and meet the place on its own terms then there are a number of good options.


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## shamrok (Aug 2, 2012)

how are places like Breaking-Bad-Land (Alb) and Las Cruces?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

chuck80442 said:


> I listened the Singletracks podcast last week, and just stumbled upon this thread and read through the whole thing...and I find it hard to believe that, other than a quick mention of Albuquerque, New Mexico is nowhere to be found.
> 
> Santa Fe is expensive, but outside of that there are towns up and down the Rio Grande Valley that are a million times cheaper than Colorado and rideable year round. Crazy drought this winter allowed me to ride nonstop here in Taos. This isn't normal, but even in a big snow year I can head south a few hours and ride, plus there's Colorado just north for summer and Southern Utah just a half day's drive away.
> 
> ...


Hmmm very interesting!


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## chuck80442 (Oct 4, 2009)

Las Cruces is desert hot in summer with, from what I'm told and have read on MTBR forums, tons of good riding year round. 

Albuquerque has all the good and the bad of New Mexico multiplied to city scale, but I've grown to love it. Milder than Taos (which is up near the Colorado border) but not as hot as Las Cruces. It's about 500k in population, with a major university and a unique vibe in every way....plus a growing system of foothills and mountain trails, with much more an hour or two away. It's off the map still but I can't imagine it will stay that way forever, although the crime and aforementioned poverty holds it back.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

chuck80442 said:


> I listened the Singletracks podcast last week, and just stumbled upon this thread and read through the whole thing...and I find it hard to believe that, other than a quick mention of Albuquerque, New Mexico is nowhere to be found.
> 
> Santa Fe is expensive, but outside of that there are towns up and down the Rio Grande Valley that are a million times cheaper than Colorado and rideable year round. Crazy drought this winter allowed me to ride nonstop here in Taos. This isn't normal, but even in a big snow year I can head south a few hours and ride, plus there's Colorado just north for summer and Southern Utah just a half day's drive away.
> 
> ...


Taos you say? Yeah, I can definitely see that as being a very cool place to live. It would certainly beat the constant cold rain of Seattle, much lower cost of living, biking, skiing powder instead of Cascade concrete, etc.

I bet I'd really like it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

My wife and I spent a week riding in NM back in 1995 and really enjoyed it. Red River was a cool town as was Taos. South Boundary trail was the main attraction and I’d imagine there’s more trail now.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

And Taos is on the verge of exploding. It’s already got ONE Starbucks.:lol::lol::yesnod:


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## chuck80442 (Oct 4, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And Taos is on the verge of exploding. It's already got ONE Starbucks.:lol::lol::yesnod:


And a brand new IHOP!


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

We love New Mexico, and you’re right that it probably should have made the list. I think the fact that Santa Fe is considered the main MTB town in the state, and it’s so expensive probably kept it off. But there are definitely other more affordable places to live in NM. We’ve considered moving out there, but we mainly love Santa Fe, and it’s crazy expensive. I’m also in education, and the education system in NM isn’t great (says the guy living in Arkansas. Hah). The huge income inequality in Santa Fe is also bothersome. 

But the food makes up for it all!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

hogfly said:


> The huge income inequality in Santa Fe is also bothersome.


It's pretty bad in the whole state really. Little pockets of wealth surrounded by abject poverty. The government seems horribly corrupt, and the population isn't very well educated. My wife and I spent some time looking around down there, and have some friends who moved there a few years ago. The people we know really like it, but they came from places where the sun never shines (Portland & Chicago). It's definitely cheap, but the crime is real. I know (motorcycle) people who won't ride alone, or at all, in remote areas because of breaking bad type stuff.

All that said, there are definitely far worse places to live, and I haven't ruled it out myself. The biggest draw for me is there isn't a major metropolitan city with millions of people. No Denver, LA, Phoenix, Seattle, etc. ABQ is the biggest, but it's no bigger than Colo Sprgs. It's a lot like Colorado, but without the angry mob in Denver flooding into the mountains every weekend.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

I know a lot of people who grew up in NM. Everything people are saying is true. The riding can be great, there are literally hundreds of thousands of square miles of desert and high mesa where you can ride on whatever trails you find or build and not see anyone on a year round basis. Cost of living is cheap. But crime is an issue (somewhat avoidable if you know where to avoid) but the real issue that keeps them from going back is the absolutely terrible schools. Job prospects are also not great unless you are an engineer / scientist and work at Los Alamos.


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## chuck80442 (Oct 4, 2009)

Porkchop_Power said:


> I know a lot of people who grew up in NM. Everything people are saying is true. The riding can be great, there are literally hundreds of thousands of square miles of desert and high mesa where you can ride on whatever trails you find or build and not see anyone on a year round basis. Cost of living is cheap. But crime is an issue (somewhat avoidable if you know where to avoid) but the real issue that keeps them from going back is the absolutely terrible schools. Job prospects are also not great unless you are an engineer / scientist and work at Los Alamos.


All true. NM is definitely not for everyone, but the worst of the crime and bad schools can be easily avoided via the right town/neighborhood and/or charter schools, neither of which necessarily require one to be wealthy. The job problem is the toughest nut to crack, and many of my friends here in Taos are either freelancers who could live anywhere, have a specific skill (computer or auto repair) they parley into a small business, or work for the Forest Service or BLM, or similarly taxpayer funded jobs like teachers or social workers or whatever.

Tough to get by, but as you mentioned, those millions of acres of empty public land (and a swell climate) MINUS the throngs of people found just north in Colorado, make it a pretty unique place with tons of great riding and empty trails for anyone willing to take the chance and work around/with the darker aspects. It's a bit like the Wild West, way less sanitized than other places in the Rocky Mountains and beyond, which is what helps keep it off the map, for better and for worse.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Thank you for the information on New Mexico. It has not been "Californicated" yet & guess now I know why. If a person is pretty self-sufficient it could be an ideal place. Looks like most of the mtb trails are near ABQ, Sante Fe, Angel Fire, & Taos area.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> This couldn't be more true. I am from California, moved to the midwest when I was a kid but still spent summers out there with family. In 2005 my wife and I moved to Denver and after fighting tooth and nail for decent jobs out there, we eventually decided to come back to the midwest. Since 2005 Denver alone has changed so much that I barely recognize it. It's actually really sad. I used to drive to Breckenridge to snowboard with some buddies that lived up there, and the majority of the population was millennials trying to hack it up high so they could be close to the resorts, and mountain hippies. Now it's a giant mess of Audi's with SWorks road bikes on top.
> 
> It's sad, I remember we tried to take a family camping trip before we moved out of California and ended up driving home late at night because the campsites were full. Colorado is quickly becoming the same way.


Colorado is not *becoming* the same as California, it *is* the same as California now.

Most State Parks in CO now have online reservations, and if you aren't on the internet the moment the reservations open, you're screwed. If you want to camp NFS or BLM, you'd better slot in on Thursday morning at the latest, or be able to go very deep into the backcountry.

Just for jollies, I just looked at Golden Gate State Park, and *every* campsite is reserved for *every* weekend through the summer.

I am happy the value of my house has shot through the roof, so I can GTFO of the Front Range when I retire in a few years. I would really like some areas of SW Colorado, but the populations are exploding in the nice areas out there. Might have to make the brave move and go to NM or even somewhere weird like NW Nebraska or SW South Dakota. Crime is a real factor in NM, a friend of mine lives near ABQ and he has some crazy stories, including pumping gas at a convenience store while the clerk inside was murdered for $125.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

I had a friend who was traveling out West, and I had mentioned how much we loved the riding and food in Santa Fe. They decided to stop over there for the night and do a ride. Woke up the next morning to no bikes on their vehicle. I felt guilty as hell for not warning him about bike theft in the area (which I mean... anyone should take precautions to avoid, but some area, like Santa Fe, are worse than others). We slept with our bikes in our freaking room in a tiny Sage Inn one year.

Now we get AirBNBs that are bike friendly and have a place to store our bikes or at least somewhere secluded to put them away from street view.


Some other friends who lived in ABQ were telling us about a theft ring that would target UHauls at hotels... as in... they'd break into them, hotwire them, and steal the whole thing in order to get the contents. That would be a damned rude awakening at a hotel in the morning.


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## Clayncedar (Aug 25, 2016)

Not where I live in eastern Pennsylvania north of Philly and west of NY. First it got invaded by people from NY and NJ fleeing high taxes. Generic ugly McMansion developments popped up everywhere.

Now the rise of e-commerce made my area the Inland Empire of the East for distribution centers so warehousing/tractor trailers basically paved over a lot of what farms were left with more to come.

Pennsylvania - The nation's highest gas taxes, worst trash-filled potholed roads, and most corrupt politicians, a.k.a. "Harrisburglars".

The shame of it is we have some really nice technical trails, historical towns (mine stored the Liberty Bell overnight and was a major stop on the Underground Railroad), and good microbreweries.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

hogfly said:


> I had a friend who was traveling out West, and I had mentioned how much we loved the riding and food in Santa Fe. They decided to stop over there for the night and do a ride. Woke up the next morning to no bikes on their vehicle. I felt guilty as hell for not warning him about bike theft in the area (which I mean... anyone should take precautions to avoid, but some area, like Santa Fe, are worse than others). We slept with our bikes in our freaking room in a tiny Sage Inn one year.
> 
> Now we get AirBNBs that are bike friendly and have a place to store our bikes or at least somewhere secluded to put them away from street view.
> 
> Some other friends who lived in ABQ were telling us about a theft ring that would target UHauls at hotels... as in... they'd break into them, hotwire them, and steal the whole thing in order to get the contents. That would be a damned rude awakening at a hotel in the morning.


I don't know anywhere in the US where I would leave my bikes on the rack overnight at a hotel. That's asking to have bikes stolen.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

chuck80442 said:


> I listened the Singletracks podcast last week, and just stumbled upon this thread and read through the whole thing...and I find it hard to believe that, other than a quick mention of Albuquerque, New Mexico is nowhere to be found.
> 
> Santa Fe is expensive, but outside of that there are towns up and down the Rio Grande Valley that are a million times cheaper than Colorado and rideable year round. Crazy drought this winter allowed me to ride nonstop here in Taos. This isn't normal, but even in a big snow year I can head south a few hours and ride, plus there's Colorado just north for summer and Southern Utah just a half day's drive away.
> 
> ...


Good post. NM is one place that I keep coming back to look at again and again because it reminds me a lot of Colorado from many, many years ago but I also love the unique NM culture. I just haven't found the particular location yet that screams "home" to me like Colorado Springs did 30 years ago. ABQ is too big for what we want, although the communities that straddle the Sandias might suit, particularly on the Eastern slope. Santa Fe is too expensive and, while charming in some ways, give me all the same bad vibes I get from Boulder. I spent a lot of time in Las Cruces and Alamogordo in my previous life working at WSMR and Ft. Bliss. I like the size and location of Taos but didn't care for the new-age artsy-fartsy scene there. I haven't hit Silver City yet but it looks interesting and I have to revisit and take my wife to Ruidoso which I haven't seen in 20some years myself.

I can live wherever I want to as long as I have good broadband internet and reasonably (2hrs by my reckoning) close to a decent airport - so what else in NM should we consider?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

TheBaldBlur said:


> I can live wherever I want to as long as I have good broadband internet and reasonably (2hrs by my reckoning) close to a decent airport - so what else in NM should we consider?


Angelfire if it's affordable. Ski in the winter, mountain bike in the summer. Reasonably close to Taos.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> People migrate. I never understood the mindset of the local mentality anywhere. People who are born a state and remain there get an attitude towards people that move into that state from other states. Get over it, people migrate.
> 
> This rant by no means was directed at either one of you.


Being that you are from Colorado, this statement makes me respect you even more.

This placed is filled with heady "locals", that just moved here last year.

Not an entirely blanket statement though. I've met some seriously wonderful people that are born and raised. I've also met some seriously wonderful people that have come from other places. It's the douches in between....ugh...


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

Nat said:


> Grammar zea lot.


Alt Write


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> People who love to fat bike will argue all day what constitutes "year-round riding".
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


yup, how about Marquette Mi.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

life behind bars said:


> Angelfire if it's affordable. Ski in the winter, mountain bike in the summer. Reasonably close to Taos.


AF is nice but I prefer Red River even more - though I don't know what the riding is like there. Both of those, and Taos for that matter, are outside of my 2hr drive to airport rule though.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

TheBaldBlur said:


> AF is nice but I prefer Red River even more - though I don't know what the riding is like there. Both of those, and Taos for that matter, are outside of my 2hr drive to airport rule though.


You know what they say about rules, don't you?


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## BobbyLight350z (Feb 1, 2016)

Western NC.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> The Bay Area gaining population and CA losing population are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Also, the Census makes continual population estimates every year.
> 
> ...












On the local news today, California's population increased by 309,000 people last year.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

MikeDee said:


> On the local news today, California's population increased by 309,000 people last year.


Yeah that doesn't make the news here.  not sure where they're gonna put those people though.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

MikeDee said:


> On the local news today, California's population increased by 309,000 people last year.


Fake news.

Not showing net gain or loss for the state, only showing total population, and increase in SF & SJ.

.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Fake news.
> 
> Not showing net gain or loss for the state, only showing total population, and increase in SF & SJ.
> 
> .


Can you explain why you believe the numbers are not real?

Something besides, "It doesn't fit my point of view", please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Can you explain why you believe the numbers are not real?
> 
> Something besides, "It doesn't fit my point of view", please.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think what he's saying is that it mentions new residents only but doesn't mention if that is a net gain? If 5 people move into my neighborhood but 10 move out, my population went down but I can claim 5 new residents. It also only says an increase in one area. Did all of the others stay the same or decrease? This image from the news is a very one sided spin.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yes, most recent reports on Calif. population has it at a net decrease.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Silentfoe said:


> I think what he's saying is that it mentions new residents only but doesn't mention if that is a net gain? If 5 people move into my neighborhood but 10 move out, my population went down but I can claim 5 new residents. It also only says an increase in one area. Did all of the others stay the same or decrease? This image from the news is a very one sided spin.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Well...

"The news" didn't say that. Mike Dee did.

The info graphic only said X number of new residents. It didn't say that the population increased.

So, MikeDee's interpretation of it is probably incorrect, but that doesn't at all discredit the graphic and the information it contains.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> Well...
> 
> "The news" didn't say that. Mike Dee did.
> 
> ...


Actually it does discredit the graphic on a certain level. It shows that the graphic is somewhat ambiguous. That in turn leads to the question of was it an honest mistake or was it purposely constructed by the broadcasting station to be ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Actually it does discredit the graphic on a certain level. It shows that the graphic is somewhat ambiguous. That in turn leads to the question of was it an honest mistake or was it purposely constructed by the broadcasting station to be ambiguous and open to interpretation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


There's also the possibility that the next frame of the broadcast showed that the population only increased by 50,000 residents (spitballing). Point being, that is one picture, and while incomplete, the data on that one picture is not incorrect.

Imagine a kids book that says, on page one, that squares are rectangles. Then, when you flip the page, it says that they have four equal length sides, and right angles. Page one is not incorrect, even if page two is omitted.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Double post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Well...
> 
> "The news" didn't say that. Mike Dee did.
> 
> ...


Guess you had to watch the newscast like I did. There is a net increase in population of 309K FOR THE STATE AS A WHOLE over the last year. It was a Bay Area newscast, so they had to put their spin on the local effects. The Sacramento area also experienced a population increase and they talked about increasing traffic and a shortage of housing/prices going up in that area as well.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Le Duke said:


> There's also the possibility that the next frame of the broadcast showed that the population only increased by 50,000 residents (spitballing). Point being, that is one picture, and while incomplete, the data on that one picture is not incorrect.
> 
> Imagine a kids book that says, on page one, that squares are rectangles. Then, when you flip the page, it says that they have four equal sides. Page one is not incorrect, even if page two is omitted.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The picture is still ambiguous and poorly constructed. A smaller font could have been used to convey the complete picture. One should never rely on a secondary visual to clarify, enhance yes, clarify no, the first. There is no guarantee that the audience will still be attentive.

Your children's book and shapes arguments makes so many apples to oranges comparisons I'm not even going to bother pointing them out individually.

Judging by his follow up post if the broadcast was truly saying there was a net increase I hope we can both agree the picture just went from poorly to horribly constructed.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Agreed.




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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm in SoCal and would like to know where they plan on getting the water for all of these new residents. They don't have enough water for those that are already here.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

John Kuhl said:


> I'm in SoCal and would like to know where they plan on getting the water for all of these new residents. They don't have enough water for those that are already here.


I'd like to know where all these people are coming from. Who's buying up all the real estate driving up prices and rents? Foreigners? Is the California economy really that much better than the rest of the country? My favorite art supply store is closing because some SOB bought the building and raised the rent 30%.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Can you explain why you believe the numbers are not real?


hmmmmmmmm

https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/05/03/82740/la-is-losing-people-to-other-states-while-the-bay/

"California's economy may be growing, and its population may be steadily increasing. But *more people continue to move out of the state every year than those moving in from other states*.......Newborns and immigrants from other countries keep California's population steadily growing.....But if you only look at people moving within the United States, California continues to lose people to states like Texas, Arizona and Nevada. "

.


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## cwtch (Apr 26, 2018)

My humble opinion is anyplace that is awesome to live and has good weather and great trails isn't going to be cheap.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

_CJ said:


> hmmmmmmmm
> 
> https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/05/03/82740/la-is-losing-people-to-other-states-while-the-bay/
> 
> ...


So the population is still growing. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

_CJ said:


> hmmmmmmmm
> 
> https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/05/03/82740/la-is-losing-people-to-other-states-while-the-bay/
> 
> "California's economy may be growing, and its population may be steadily increasing. But *more people continue to move out of the state every year than those moving in from other states*.......Newborns and immigrants from other countries keep California's population steadily growing.....But if you only look at people moving within the United States, California continues to lose people to states like Texas, Arizona and Nevada. "


The exodus is going to accelerate due to the recent tax overhaul, capping the state & local taxes that can be deducted from federal taxes; and not just from CA, although it leads the pack according to this article.

The great exodus out of America's blue cities | TheHill


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

_CJ said:


> hmmmmmmmm
> 
> https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/05/03/82740/la-is-losing-people-to-other-states-while-the-bay/
> 
> ...


Good article. California is dysfunctional. Turned me from a registered Democrat to Republican; not that it's going to make a difference as this is a heavily blue state.

Another thing that everyone is ignoring, the homeless situation is out of control.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

This is sort of relevant:


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> So the population is still growing. Thanks.


And net migration is negative, which is in contrast to the narrative being forwarded by the "population growth" stories being bandied about. That's what makes it "fake news".

.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

cwtch said:


> My humble opinion is anyplace that is awesome to live and has good weather and great trails isn't going to be cheap.


Southwest Utah is awesome.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

MikeDee said:


> I'd like to know where all these people are coming from. Who's buying up all the real estate driving up prices and rents? Foreigners? Is the California economy really that much better than the rest of the country?


Absolutely. There are a ton of foreigners spending money on homes in SoCal, specifically Asian and Middle Eastern money. I have (3) buddies I ride with that are in the industry in OC. One works for a concrete company that builds high end, difficult, crazy foundations (they've built 3 for Kobe Bryant for example) and another guy that owns his own framing company. The smallest house he builds is 10,000 sq feet and he's so busy, he's turning down jobs for the 1st time in 30 years in the business. Last year, he bid on a $35 million (yes, MILLION) SPEC home that (3) Iranian brothers were building to flip. The LOTS alone for some of these homes are double digit millions!!!


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