# Salsa Tandem? Yep.



## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

Wow. I would have never expected Salsa to build a mtn. tandem. But here she is...
Powderkeg | Bikes | Salsa Cycles
Wonder if they will ever make it fat?


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## andrusc (Sep 13, 2010)

Strange entry into the tandem market. A basic wheelset that would be considered wimpy even on a single mountain bike, a rigid fork, and bb7 brakes. This may be fine for gravel grinding but at about the same price a person could have a Fandango DC-9 and be sporting a trail-worthy mountain tandem.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I had the same reaction... and when I look further I see this " Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24")." Really!! 23" jumps/drops on a rigid mountain tandem... oh and $4k!!!! scheez
.


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## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

Frameset is $2k?!?!


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Bacon, You are correct. I listed the cost of a complete bike.

Powderkeg | Bikes | Salsa Cycles
Pricing
Powderkeg Complete Bike - U.S. MSRP $3999
Powderkeg Frameset - U.S. MSRP $1999
Availability
Summer 2015


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## Tracer650 (Nov 19, 2012)

Salsa bikes.... constantly innovating.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

2K for a frameset isn't bad. $300 more than the Fandango. And I guess it is chromoly which gives you a choice of materials.
The more I ride my 26 inch Tandem the more I think the smaller wheel is stronger and stiffer which is good on a tandem. Perhaps the 27.5 size is going to be the trend.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Another missed opportunity! You'd think they'd have learned something from watching Cannondale's T29 flop at an even lower price point. 
$2k for an offshore-sourced frame/fork isn't much of a bargain. 
I had planned on carrying these in the shop when we first heard about the project a few years ago, but after seeing the spec and price, I think this tandem will be a hard sell to anyone but the Salsa ...... faithful.


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## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

^Agreed. I really like the brand. We have a Muk and El Mar in our stable... great bikes. But I am scratching my head at the price of the frame alone.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Agree with Tandemnut, kind of may have a cult following. Hardtail tandem, Fandango is the bike, MTBTandems is the place.

Sorry to sound like an ad, but with a lot of miles on that Fandango before we decided on just two tandems for this old team, that was a great bike that really performed well.

Both of us still miss it, but our old lower backs are grateful. We did some pretty crazy rides on the Fandango and it always wanted more.

PK


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

The 42-pound frame weight kind of turns me off.

: D


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

She&I said:


> The 42-pound frame weight kind of turns me off.
> 
> : D


That MUST be the weight of the complete bike......................I hope.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Looking closely at the frame specs their is some enticing stuff. Alternator dropouts for geared, single speed, Rohloff hub etc. 7 water bottle mounts on frame and 2 on fork. This steel frame should be beefy enough for anyone. 
I really don't think they are overpricing the frame at all. What else out there compares? Fandango frame is a great deal but it is aluminum.
Lots of tandem frames cost a lot more than that.
Couldn't find the BB height in the specs.


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## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

Frame weight is 11.16lbs.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Looking closely at the frame specs their is some enticing stuff. Alternator dropouts for geared, single speed, Rohloff hub etc. 7 water bottle mounts on frame and 2 on fork. This steel frame should be beefy enough for anyone.
> I really don't think they are overpricing the frame at all. What else out there compares? Fandango frame is a great deal but it is aluminum.
> Lots of tandem frames cost a lot more than that.
> Couldn't find the BB height in the specs.


There is nothing wrong with Aluminum unless you like a stiff, lightweight frame.

Fandango is made in the USA, can be had in a variety of colors and "rigging".

It does not make sense to build a steel hardtail tandem frame in an era when mountain bikers have a choice of so much more and better (Ti, Carbon, Al).

At the same time, Ventana comes out with a fat tandem in aluminum with adjustable drops, it's also made and the USA, and it costs less.

Have you seen this frame: Calfee Tetra Hardtail Tandem Frame (27.5")

Now that's a frame! Of course it's also three times the price of a Fandango, but, it's light and supposedly strong...I ride carbon on my FS 29er, it's nice stuff.

Santana has a nice history, people know who they are, maybe they're aiming for a different clientele?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> There is nothing wrong with Aluminum unless you like a stiff, lightweight frame.
> 
> Fandango is made in the USA, can be had in a variety of colors and "rigging".
> 
> ...


Salsa or Santana...

Some folks seem to believe this Salsa is something new. The design and prototype is several years old. I chuckled about how many water bottle mounts it has, I may be wrong, but if you install that many bottle cages, is there any room left for frame bags? The machine is being presented as a bikepacking setup. Pretty certain that our Fandango was built that way in 2010, and there have been others that have done some serious bikepacking on the Fandangos.

PK


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

PMK said:


> I chuckled about how many water bottle mounts it has, I may be wrong, but if you install that many bottle cages, is there any room left for frame bags?


I had that exact thought, PK.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I am an avid bikepacker and not everyone uses framebags. These mounts will not interfere with putting on a framebag should you want to. And their fork has mounts as well, something many others do not. And without framebags you can pack some serious water along without having to use a hydration pack.
I am not a Salsa fanboy but they are certainly bringing something different to the table. Lot's of people still prefer steel to other materials. Read up on the materials before you toll the death knell for steel.
Only time will tell if Salsa has a winner on their hands. They certainly are a big seller in the bikepacking community. Their Fargo is one of the most popular rigs for the Tour Divide race.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

We are avid tandem riders (when healthy), and have bikepacked on a tandem. We have ridden steel road tandems and aluminum. I have a pretty good understanding of materials and there properties from my day job.

Salsa will sell a bunch of these bikes. I am guessing those that have ridden tandems a while will not jump to one.

All the best with your Powderkeg, and yes, as you said, time will tell.

PK


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

PMK said:


> We are avid tandem riders (when healthy), and have bikepacked on a tandem. We have ridden steel road tandems and aluminum. I have a pretty good understanding of materials and there properties from my day job.
> 
> Salsa will sell a bunch of these bikes. I am guessing those that have ridden tandems a while will not jump to one.
> 
> ...


Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. I guess the only ones worth looking at are Fandango, Ventana and Calfee. 
I don't know why you automatically assume that I have a Salsa of any type or will buy one? I don't and probably won't. 
Why don't you tell me why steel is so bad for a bicycle frame particularly one meant for touring? Look at most of the custom touring frames and you will see many of them are steel
My tandem is an old steel KHS modified with a heavy duty Fox fork, hand built (by me) 36 hole 20 MM through axle to a beefy rim and a thudbuster. The bike works great for us and I don't think we need to upgrade.
I anticipated this forum to be a little more friendly and open to new things but I guess I was wrong. Sorry about messing with your turf!
Enjoy your forum!


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## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

I think Salsa will have some good success with the bike packing community and sell quite a few. They do steel very well (you can see the Surly influence there). That said. I still think this frame and complete build is a bit pricey.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

No Hate.

Here's the story from Salsa. They have been testing and doing homework. 5 years worth.

Salsa Cycles

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

richwolf said:


> Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. ...
> Enjoy your forum!


Rich,

No one here has any motive to be hating on Salsa.

This is a pretty eclectic bunch here with a lot of experience, and it seems that a lot of us are having the same reaction. This bike, at this price, does not make sense. I think we all appreciate that a manufacturer is interested in what WE are interested in, but it seems they have missed the mark.

The Cannondale MT800 was pretty much the same bike in aluminium with a killer groupo, and it didn't make it. Despite the great build, we got nowhere with it off paved paths. We tried for several years, making all sorts of modifications, including enormous DH tires that cut into the stays. Just didn't work.

We got an ECdM and the world changed. We ride more in one week than we rode in a year with the MT800. Riding ANY tandem is challenging enough. Riding single-track... that's a whole magnitude of more bigger challenge (I'm a teacher and I approve of that creative bit of grammar there ).

FWIW, I will never encourage anyone to spend the money on a rigid tandem mountain bike. I will tell them, "it's worth it! Buy an ECdM! If there were other options, I'm sure I would consider them, but as it is this is the only option, unless you have more money... then look at Calfee.

There's a lot of experience available here for you to benefit from ... just say'n

Cheers my friend.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

As noted, there is an invaluable wealth of off-road tandem experience on this (and other) forums. That experience has shown, repeatedly, that certain geometry, components, materials and accommodations make off-road tandeming easier and more fun.

Frame material choices have changed over the years to the lightest, stiffest platform, since suspension and tires do so much more to handle bumps than frame material ever can. Thus, alloy frames on average-priced stuff and carbon on high-end stuff. Just like with single bikes, tastes have changed and new materials work better. Since tandems place some unique stresses on materials, lateral stiffness is even more important, especially off-road where laser-sharp handling is sometimes critical to a successful line. That's why most tandem frames within the mainstream enthusiast market are alloy, with carbon on the high end.

From my position, there is some frustration with both Cannondale and Salsa because they keep making (what I consider to be) the same mistakes - inappropriate geometry for true off-roading. In the case of Salsa, they also have chosen a less-efficient frame material, and on top of that, have spec'd the tandem with parts that will likely not hold up to off-roading (or loaded touring, which appears to be the intent of this design).

It's not like any of this info is secret or anything. These forums are full of the experiences of lots of teams who have learned expensive lessons about what works and what doesn't. A few days spent here would probably save a company a great deal in warranty costs and ill-will. In fact, when Salsa first "leaked" info on this tandem project a few years ago, the feedback they received (many from Salsa fans, since it was leaked on a Salsa forum) mirrored the comments that have been made here since the introduction.

Since they haven't chosen to pay attention to the experiences of riders who have "been there, done that", one could assume that they either are not very bright (very unlikely - Salsa's a successful brand), or their intended use is not what we think it is. Maybe the best analogy is SUV's; very few people actually use them as they were originally intended, and as a result current designs are not nearly as capable and durable as older ones (electronic aids notwithstanding). but a lot of folks buy that "look". Truthfully, it seems to me that the geometry on this tandem leans more towards gravel grinding, and perhaps dirt touring, not full-on mtb tandeming. From that aspect, I think the Co-Motion Java might be more the intended target of this Salsa tandem, not a Fandango or a Ventana. This is a Tandem Mountain Bike forum, not a tandem touring forum, so one might expect some criticism from the perspective of the members here.

Salsa will sell these to people who buy Salsa, just like Cannondale did and will do for a bit longer, at least until their US-brand cachet finally wears off and people realize it's another Asian-sourced import. Does where a product is sourced from matter? It does to me, it doesn't to some people.

I sell most every brand of off-road tandem (or wannabe) made; I'm not too proud - I'm a tandem dealer, after all - if the Salsa is available to me, I'll sell it as well. I'm also very up-front with customers about what a tandem will and won't be good at. And what bothers me most is that some folks will buy these tandems, have an experience that is less than it could have been, and in many cases choose not continue to ride off-road, thinking it's not practical or feasible. And that is lost business and lost opportunity for our niche of the sport.

Perhaps it's unrealistic to expect everyone here to agree with or support what seems to be an assertion that a KHS with a suspension fork and wheelset upgrade, the new Salsa, The Cannondale T29, or similar products, represent a good off-road tandem platform in the wider context of what's available now,_* and especially within the context of the style of riding many on this forum participate in.*_ From the point of view of many on this forum, the new products we're seeing aren't even as good as what's already available for what we use them for. Like all enthusiasts, we look forward to new and better products being introduced.

The members here speak from their own and shared experiences, and those experiences are very valid (and valuable).


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

As others have said, it's not about "hate". Just experience with other designs, build specs and perceived value. 

The combination of those things has lead me to the tandems that we own now. 

I get frustrated when the forums become rants and things get sideways. The knowledge and experience on these forums CAN be extremely valuable. Other times, you just have to wade through it and move on. We all have opinions. Some based on a wealth of experience and others not. 

I generally choose not to get engaged in the "hate".


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> As noted, there is an invaluable wealth of off-road tandem experience on this (and other) forums. That experience has shown, repeatedly, that certain geometry, components, materials and accommodations make off-road tandeming easier and more fun.
> 
> Frame material choices have changed over the years to the lightest, stiffest platform, since suspension and tires do so much more to handle bumps than frame material ever can. Thus, alloy frames on average-priced stuff and carbon on high-end stuff. Just like with single bikes, tastes have changed and new materials work better. Since tandems place some unique stresses on materials, lateral stiffness is even more important, especially off-road where laser-sharp handling is sometimes critical to a successful line. That's why most tandem frames within the mainstream enthusiast market are alloy, with carbon on the high end.
> 
> ...


 I am willing to take our modified tandem and tandem team against you "experts" out there. You can blather on endlessly about stupid reasons why a particular bike won't work or is a bad value (such as why would you want 7 water bottle mounts because of the frame bag situation). Seriously the Salsa frame at only $300 more than the Fandango which includes a beefy rigid fork and is not that much more in the whole scheme of things so this "expensive" argument really doesn't hold much water.. Don't like their whole bike spec but like their frame, then buy the frame and build it up the way you want.

My new front end on my KHS has dramatically changed what our bike is capable of. The front end of a tandem is so much a part of the equation. Our new front end is stiffer in every-way, and floats over just about everything. It even feels stiffer than my single bike. I think it is much superior to the fork that comes stock on the Fandango. What specifically about the Fandango is going to get us up the hills quicker, down the hills quicker and around the corners quicker? 
I laugh when a friend gets a brand new bike and tells me how much faster he is on it only to see him just as far back as he always was. To me the only thing that will make a mountain bike significantly faster (once you get to a reasonably put together bike) is suspension for downhills or putting some training time in (you know actually riding the damn thing)
Have fun folks, we are going out riding even though Alex doesn't think that our tandem is off road worthy. I also think that there is an invaluable wealth of *mis information* on this and other forums.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

richwolf said:


> I am willing to take our modified tandem and tandem team against you "experts" out there. You can blather on endlessly about stupid reasons why a particular bike won't work or is a bad value (such as why would you want 7 water bottle mounts because of the frame bag situation). Seriously the Salsa frame at only $300 more than the Fandango which includes a beefy rigid fork and is not that much more in the whole scheme of things so this "expensive" argument really doesn't hold much water.. Don't like their whole bike spec but like their frame, then buy the frame and build it up the way you want.
> 
> My new front end on my KHS has dramatically changed what our bike is capable of. The front end of a tandem is so much a part of the equation. Our new front end is stiffer in every-way, and floats over just about everything. It even feels stiffer than my single bike. I think it is much superior to the fork that comes stock on the Fandango. What specifically about the Fandango is going to get us up the hills quicker, down the hills quicker and around the corners quicker?
> I laugh when a friend gets a brand new bike and tells me how much faster he is on it only to see him just as far back as he always was. To me the only thing that will make a mountain bike significantly faster (once you get to a reasonably put together bike) is suspension for downhills or putting some training time in (you know actually riding the damn thing)
> ...


When did I say that? Don't misquote me. If your KHS works for what you do with it, then I'm truly happy for you. I, and others, have found such designs and materials to be lacking for what we do with them. Calling those reasons "stupid" seems pretty childish, and smells much like a troll. And to call the information here "misinformation" because you don't agree with it is pretty insulting to some folks here whom I know personally, and know for a fact that they know exactly what they're talking about.

Many have progressed to newer, better designs that work better for what we/they do with them. Not sure why that offends you, but it sure seems to.

Perhaps, as you seem to be trying to say, we and the other teams on this forum just aren't good tandem riders like you are?

I am curious though: have you ridden any other off-road tandems?

I remember now why I refrain from engaging in forum discussions.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Rich, you sound simply butt-hurt over the fact that nobody went gaga over the Salsa tandem, then you accuse everyone who didn't (or those who made various random observations or musings) as "hating," and ultimately propose some sort of tandem riding dick measuring contest.

Get over your ultra-experienced self. Enjoy the diverse and experienced opinions here, and be one of them. Or take your present attitude and GTFO like you inferred you would.

Cheers,

Mike


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## THenne (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm new to the tandem game and really enjoy the diverse and experienced opinions and recommendations here. Keep them coming and Thanks to all for the info!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

richwolf said:


> View attachment 968399


Rich, there is no hate.

Your photo explains a lot if that us your type of riding.

I would say everyone agrees that for open terrain or very flowing single track, that Salsa will be fine. So will many other tandems including yours.

There are plenty of videos posted, showing some very technical singletrack trails that some of us have ridden. Most will show terrain far different than your photo.

For simply fun, you should get in touch with some other tandem teams that may be local to you and do a group ride. You may ride the wheels off that KHS and show them how it's done. As I often say, 'It ain't the arrow it's the indian", or in this case Indians.

For comparison, this is some of the silly stuff we enjoy. Not sure I would be comfy on a rigid tandem or something not with precise handling






Then again we also enjoy this with our first grandkid.

If you are having fun, that's what matters most.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> When did I say that? Don't misquote me. If your KHS works for what you do with it, then I'm truly happy for you. I, and others, have found such designs and materials to be lacking for what we do with them. Calling those reasons "stupid" seems pretty childish, and smells much like a troll. And to call the information here "misinformation" because you don't agree with it is pretty insulting to some folks here whom I know personally, and know for a fact that they know exactly what they're talking about.
> 
> Many have progressed to newer, better designs that work better for what we/they do with them. Not sure why that offends you, but it sure seems to.
> 
> ...


If you lived closer I would give that big old teddy bear of you Alex, a hug to cheer you up...then you would swat me like a fly, no doubt causing injury...Mike H, you do it.

Better still let the female stokers handle this, provided Kim is ok with it.

PK


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

richwolf,

If you wish to discuss the subject of this thread, here is the place to do it — not through PM to me. You appear to have some legit complaints with how this thread went down, so why not sack up and agree to disagree with a few people here? Complaining to me won't do jack. Stop being the only whining person on the tandems board and share your opinion like the rest of us blathering, silly riders.

Cheers again,

Mike


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

She&I said:


> richwolf,
> 
> If you wish to discuss the subject of this thread, here is the place to do it - not through PM to me. You appear to have some legit complaints with how this thread went down, so why not sack up and agree to disagree with a few people here? Complaining to me won't do jack. Stop being the only whining person on the tandems board and share your opinion like the rest of us blathering, silly riders.
> 
> ...


I have never had anyone complain about a PM before. I have had several people PM me and never thought it a big deal to be brought up to everyone's attention but here is the PM I sent She&I

"I am not butt hurt over the Salsa or what people think about it, but many of the comments seemed to have been made out of dislike for anything not Ventana or Fandango. For people to call the Salsa frameset (with fork) at only $300 more than the Fandango "pricey" seems ridiculous. How many quality Tandem frames come in under $2K? And the comment about how ridiculous 7 water bottle mounts was even sillier. Like I said the proof will be in the pudding, and either people will like them or not, but for people to make huge judgement calls about a product without trying it out seems a little premature.
I also found your comment in your response offensive. My point was that once you get to a certain quality level in a bike that the motor has a lot more to do than anything.
I asked Alex how a Fandango compared to my setup would make us faster downhill, uphill or in the turns and he failed to address any of those questions. It was the perfect opportunity for him to showcase how his bike is superior and why.
If I were to look at a new bike I would strongly consider a ventana FS in 26 inch wheel size but at this point ours works great and I would rather spend the money on going places.
And yes I will not post on this forum anymore."


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We started off-road riding on a KHS that I swapped a suspension fork onto. Added disc brakes. Bars to suit, a rear suspension post for the stoker. We were limited in what trails we could ride while keeping my stoker happy AND seated. We bought up to an ECdM and I can tell you it's a dramatic improvement for us, how we ride, where we ride, and the speed at which we can ride.

Not recognizing that there are many people here who started out on a lower-end bike and do honestly have that experience under their belts and found reasons to upgrade is unfortunate for you. Doubly so since you seem to be trashing people here because you seem to feel everyone here is blind to anything but Ventana. And also, perhaps, ignoring the actual/factual reasons that may well be.

If you're happy with your current ride, that is actually all that matters. 

...but, just maybe, you don't know what you're missing in having a bike that's more suited to off-road riding than the KHS. Remember, I speak from experience.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

richwolf said:


> And yes I will not post on this forum anymore."


That's a shame, there too few of us already.

Maybe it'd be worthwhile to take a few moments to reflect on how disagreements on the internet can get blown out of proportion.

I will say, that though I don't always agree with the real experts on this forum (not me), I will say that even when I disagree I think real hard about what they are saying and why I think different; looking for things I may have missed 

There is nothing wrong with having a gravel grinder like the Salsa, that is probably the more typical use for a mountain tandem. For us, we tend to ride technical stuff, lots of rocks, drops, tight turns, trails that woudl challenge a solo bike, so we ride a Fandango and are in process of building a Jefe.

If you have a "paid for" tandem and you want to tweak it, and make it the best it can be, that is probably a good money save in the short term. In reality, you can't make a KHS into a Fandango, they are light years apart in geometry and stiffness. I think this is what Alex was trying to convey when comparing an SUV to a "real" four wheel drive..

Rich, don't feel put upon, it is not unlike folks telling me I should get a Ventana El Conquistador, and what do I do but build a Jefe instead


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

richwolf said:


> Geeeeeeeeeez, lot's of hate for Salsa here. I guess the only ones worth looking at are Fandango, Ventana and Calfee.
> I don't know why you automatically assume that I have a Salsa of any type or will buy one? I don't and probably won't.
> Why don't you tell me why steel is so bad for a bicycle frame particularly one meant for touring? Look at most of the custom touring frames and you will see many of them are steel
> My tandem is an old steel KHS modified with a heavy duty Fox fork, hand built (by me) 36 hole 20 MM through axle to a beefy rim and a thudbuster. The bike works great for us and I don't think we need to upgrade.
> ...


richwolf - if your're still out there...It seems that this is where this thread began really began to unravel.

*I don't think there is actually any hate for Salsa*. I think there are a lot of experienced teams that have actually ridden a lot of different materials and brands. Some of these guys are engineers, so they have a good perspective - not me, I just ride bikes.

People in general tend to be loyal to the brand that they have. Someone owns a Harley motorcycle and they rave about it. Someone buys a Prius and all of the sudden they are very green and might talk down about your SUV.

Some of us have owned multiple brands of tandems and have found certain materials and geometry to suit us at varying price points (The only tandem frame material that we have NOT owned is titanium, and I'm not averse to it, just haven't plunked down the cash to give it a shot)

I say don't take this personally. We all have opinions. It is after all, the internet and a forum where people go to discuss, sometimes rant and other times show brand loyalty (its hard not to).

No ill will from me. I hope you enjoy the bike that you currently own and if you buy something new, hopefully it suits whatever need you wish to fill.

FWIW regarding the Salsa, the stand over alone is enough for me to disregard the Salsa Powderkeg, but I am not in the market for a new bike, so it was never even a thought for me.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

TandemNut said:


> I remember now why I refrain from engaging in forum discussions.


yep


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

She&I said:


> Or take your present attitude and GTFO like you inferred you would.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


yep


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## TCW (Mar 13, 2006)

I like Salsa bikes, nearly got a Spearfish when they first came out. At the time they seemed like the best value around, for what I wanted.

I saw different versions of this tandem teased a couple years ago. The right side timing chain with 2 x gearing looked sweet. 

This bike just doesn't seem like a good value, especially compared to Fandango for trail riding or a Cannondale 29er for easy trails and gravel grinding. If the Salsa was $500 - $800 cheaper then I'd take a closer look. 

Speaking of gravel grinding. We recently slapped some CX tires on our road tandem and it worked great for gravel. A buddy built up a wheelset for his road tandem and it worked great on the gravel for him and his son. If I were looking for something new for mostly gravel I'd probably get the Cannondale for under $3K, street price.


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## ALM (Jul 14, 2012)

So I guess Richwolf is a NO for the next AORTA? Sorry I could not resist : ) The KHS is great if that is the terrain you are riding but I don't think it would do well on some rough single track like this (yes I took this opportunity to repost this pic of us cause I like it! LOL)

If you are still here RW, this is a great group and I have had the pleasure of meeting just a handful. If the KHS works for you then ride the wheels off of it. We have a Trek T1000 road tandem and would love to have a Co Motion or DaVinci ...BUT ... it will not make us any faster. These two old, fat, motors just do the best the can. And, if you decide to try and make the next AORTA then I will buy your first drink!


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ALM, you're stirrin' the pot! 
I hate to see anyone leave a forum. Hope we get to meet RW and his stoker someday and ride with them - I suspect that, as with most tandem teams, they're probably very nice folks in person.


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## THenne (Dec 6, 2005)

Is there a link to info on AORTA 2015? Sorry but new to the game.


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## durist (Jan 30, 2014)

*Salsa tandem fork*

Hope this isn't OT, but does anyone know if they're going to be selling the fork separately? That looks like it could be a nice rigid option for my Fandango with the through-axle.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

durist said:


> Hope this isn't OT, but does anyone know if they're going to be selling the fork separately? That looks like it could be a nice rigid option for my Fandango with the through-axle.


On topic!

And a good question. Inquiring minds want to know...


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## ALM (Jul 14, 2012)

THenne said:


> Is there a link to info on AORTA 2015? Sorry but new to the game.


Ahhhh, inquiring minds would like to know!! I for one hope so! I also hope it is just a little later in the year like mid June to end of June. I own a small business and wife is a teacher. Neither of us can get free at the beginning of June but I know majority rules.

After buying our Fandango and getting to meet Alex/Kim Knutt and Michael/Carin Hopton we want to go back. I just look forward to getting to ride with some other tandems to watch and learn. I have heard rumors of how bad Paul/Jeanne are on the tandem also.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I CAN"T believe you went right at 1:10!!! Crazy team you are! love it!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ALM said:


> Ahhhh, inquiring minds would like to know!! I for one hope so! I also hope it is just a little later in the year like mid June to end of June. I own a small business and wife is a teacher. Neither of us can get free at the beginning of June but I know majority rules.
> 
> After buying our Fandango and getting to meet Alex/Kim Knutt and Michael/Carin Hopton we want to go back. I just look forward to getting to ride with some other tandems to watch and learn. I have heard rumors of how bad Paul/Jeanne are on the tandem also.


Paul and Jeanne committed to Brenda and Larrys event. Probably no AORTA 2015 for us this year.

PK


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

What I don't understand is why Salsa would not release a "triple-threat" frame that can handle 29, 29+ and fat tires (or at least 27.5+)? They obviously have the knowledge to produce something like that. $2K for an ultra-versatile frame does not seem too bad, but for one limited to one tire/wheel size I am not really sold on it.


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## plantdude (Dec 30, 2007)

Interesting discussion and lots of knowledge here. Despite the general dismissal of the powderkeg in this thread, I am considering ordering one. 

This will be the first tandem in my quiver. My wife and I used to ride together (on our own bikes) before kids. Now we'd like to get back into riding together for "dates" so that we can spend time together and be active. We've ridden a Santana road tandem before on a couple road rides and my wife really enjoyed it. I'm a Mtn biker at heart, but enjoy all surface and terrain types, currently riding a rigid salsa El Mariachi as my main bike.

Here in the east bay hills there's lots of great riding: back roads, fire roads, remote open space areas to explore. My wife wouldn't enjoy high speed off road or technical ST descents, so I see us mostly doing what I'd consider mixed terrain rides. So road and fire trail (although they can be really rutted due to cattle) linked together with maybe the occasional smooth singletrack here and there.

I think that the powderkeg would be a good rig for us. My local shop has offered me a little discount to sweeten the deal, so I think the pricing is reasonable for what it is. Thinking I'd upgrade to XT or SLX hydraulics and put a jones loop bar on the front. We're both light and the bike will never leave the ground on this bike, so I think the wheels will work for us. I'm 6' she's 5'3", so looking at the lrg/sml.

Any suggestions, advice, etc with regards to this bike being/not being a good choice for us or not? Thx


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Suspension is worth considering. Trail feedback is not a good thing for someone adverse to technical terrain. At least a good squish fork, if not frame and fork for the most comfortable and enjoyable ride.


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## DrMarkR (Apr 18, 2013)

Some obviously don't want to hear it, but there's no way we're going to hammer some of the single track we have here on a rigid fork Salsa, or a KHS frame (with whatever fork you put on it) as fast as we can on our Fandango.... simply isn't going to happen. The difference in handling doesn't allow it, at least with us aboard. We ride this bike aggressively, essentially all the time we're on it. Others may not test the bike's limits this much. 

If anyone thinks this is not true, come on down for a training camp! Guest house is available. ...! We don't ever get to ride MTB tandems with anyone else and would love to do so!


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## andrusc (Sep 13, 2010)

If you have the option of trying out an assembled Salsa make sure to check out the standover clearance for your stoker. My (previous) stoker was 5' 4" and she was at her limit on a small Fandango. Also, you might find that you need to give up the suspension seat post in order to lower the seat enough.

For the purposes you describe the Salsa will probably make for a fine ride. I once had a Santana road tandem with a steel frame and the ride was quite compliant and a lot of fun.

One way to approach your decision is to consider how the Salsa would look starting with a bare frame and doing your own build. Since the frame is $2000 -- you would have an additional $2000 to invest in components. A sturdy wheelset might be a good starting point. Another way to approach it is how the bike might look if you bought the entire bike, sold the wheelset unused on E-bay, and then bought a sturdy wheelset with wide rims (about $600). I would also think about how to run the widest tires possible (perhaps even a 29x3" in front) to help with the road chatter.

Whatever you decide this is going to be a lot of fun (and so says my stoker).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

If you are a mountain biker at heart, you will ride your tandem on technical trails, and your wife will follow because she won't know better until after the fact 

How suspension works on a tandem is not unlike a mountain bike, BUT on a tandem you can't manipulate the bike; and your partner, the way you can riding solo. Your partner can't anticipate what is coming, nor can you avoid all obstacles or give her a heads up as to a pending impact, so she will have no advance notice before being bounced. The rear suspension (a thudbuster helps) will ease that impact and save their body, increasing their enjoyment and increasing the time they are "willing" to spend in the saddle.

A rigid tandem fork is for paved bike trails. If you ride anything rough you will outmatch your rigid fork. A tandem "goes through and over obstacles", it is not possible to manipulate a tandem like you can on a solo bike, so your rigid bike expereince does not apply.

As for the Salsa, I would be concerned about the frame rigidity and it's compatibility with a suspension fork, so check the specs. Maybe Alex will chime in on steel vs aluminum?

We don't ride an ECDM, currently we're building a Jefe fat tandem (Bluto suspension for, thudbuster for the stoker) to replace our first tandem (Fandango). If we weren't building the Jefe, I'd get an ECDM. In the beginning we should have bought an ECDM instead of the Fandango, not saying that the Fandango is poor choice, but a full suspension tandem is where it's at for trail riding.

Consider getting an ECDM with a lower end groupo versus a hardtail with a higher end groupo. Not only will you and your stoker be happier, it will have a higher resale. You can always upgrade parts down the road, though you may find that lower end parts last longer on a tandem because tandems don't generally see as much use as a solo bike.

But, if you are looking to start low and go slow, I have a well cared for Fandango for sale ($2500) Fandango 29er Tandem, Large Frame, WB Loop 100mm Fork, SRAM 2 x 10 - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories



plantdude said:


> Interesting discussion and lots of knowledge here. Despite the general dismissal of the powderkeg in this thread, I am considering ordering one.
> 
> This will be the first tandem in my quiver. My wife and I used to ride together (on our own bikes) before kids. Now we'd like to get back into riding together for "dates" so that we can spend time together and be active. We've ridden a Santana road tandem before on a couple road rides and my wife really enjoyed it. I'm a Mtn biker at heart, but enjoy all surface and terrain types, currently riding a rigid salsa El Mariachi as my main bike.
> 
> ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

More on the frame and build:

The frame appears to be burly, at least they talk about "massive frame tubes" and high strength steel. It is also spec'd for a 100mm suspension fork, so if this true then the frame is good to go. It has alternatorr drop outs which are a nice touch, get them with a 12 x 142 so you can run a through axle which is important for wheel stabaility.

The build kit is not good to go. The rims and hubs will not handle tandem trail riding, they are low grade wheels even spec'd to a solo bike. The rest of the parts are low to mid grade, nothing special. So you're paying a lot for the frame, but if you relaly want this frame, I'd build your own.

Good wheels will cost a grand, suspension fork is another grand or so, two grand for everything else. Figure $5k plus tax.

Size wise, the Large/Small may be too big for you at 6'. Our Large Fandango is tad long and tall for me, but it's nearly an inch shorter in standover; we are the same height. We got the large because my wife is tall (5'10"). The Medium/Small might be a better fit, use a long stem to stretch out. I prefer a tighter cockpit and a more upright position so I can get our over the front end for control. Unlike a solo bike, you won't have to wory about going over the handlebars.

Also take a look at the Fandango as a custom or the Ventana Jefe.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

plantdude said:


> I'm a Mtn biker at heart, but enjoy all surface and terrain types, currently riding a rigid salsa El Mariachi as my main bike.
> 
> My wife wouldn't enjoy high speed off road or technical ST descents, so I see us mostly doing what I'd consider mixed terrain rides.
> 
> Any suggestions, advice, etc with regards to this bike being/not being a good choice for us or not? Thx


As a "Mtn biker at heart", you won't be able to resist technical ST descents. My wife didn't even ride off-road until we got the tandem. We are now on our third having gone from KHS rigid to Lapierre hardtail to ECdM. Save some money and time and go for the best you can afford now rather than doing it later......................neither of you will regret it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

switchbacktrog said:


> As a "Mtn biker at heart", you won't be able to resist technical ST descents. My wife didn't even ride off-road until we got the tandem. We are now on our third having gone from KHS rigid to Lapierre hardtail to ECdM. Save some money and time and go for the best you can afford now rather than doing it later......................neither of you will regret it.


Yup, the stuff we do on a tandem is far more technical than my wife could do on a solo bike, both the up and the down. On solo bikes my wife could never come close to riding the stuff I ride.

On a tandem, I can use my skills to get us places that she could never get on her own, at the same time I get a tremendous workout because I push my physical and technical abilities by making a tandem do what a solo bike can do.

If you already know that you and your wife make a fun tandem team, then spring for the good stuff and go ride. If you're feeling guilty about how much a tandem costs, then get the entry level ECDM from Alex at MTB Tandems and upgrade as you go.

When I look at the entry level ECDM, there really is nothing "low quality" about his package. I'd take the WB hubs over the Hopes any day. SRAM X7 drivetrain works fine, though I'd spec it with as a 10 speed; cassette, chain, shifter, derailleur upgrade shoudln't cost more than another $100.

Also, the ECDM has a number of sizing choices that will work for you and your wife.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

plantdude said:


> My local shop has offered me a little discount to sweeten the deal


If money is an issue (and when is it not?) I'd strongly suggest you look into a used ECdM. They come up now and again and are always killer deals (figure ~$3500 being a ballpark used price for a bike in good condition). As others have said, you'll start out on fire roads, but you'll eventually move to ST as your skills improve.

Any particular reason you're considering the Salsa over a Fandango? Or, for $1000 more than Salsa list, you can get a brand new ECdM from mtbtandems.com, which is not only a far more capable bike that will be much more comfortable for your stoker, but will hold its value better. You'd end up putting money into the Salsa to make it work (wheels, Thudbuster, tires to suit, etc.).


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

I'd like to weigh in on the subject, but last time I did, someone got mad and left the forum.
Thank you all for the nice comments on the Fandango. I realize they're not for everyone, but I do appreciate that customers have recognized the value that is there.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Alex, two things. 

1. If we don't have everyone's opinion based on their experiences, the poster won't get to see all sides of an issue from the perspective of individual teams. 

2. If we don't get to have your experience as someone who sells tandems and has a much better aggregate idea of what works and what doesn't, we all lose out on valuable information.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Alex, two things.
> 
> 1. If we don't have everyone's opinion based on their experiences, the poster won't get to see all sides of an issue from the perspective of individual teams.
> 
> 2. If we don't get to have your experience as someone who sells tandems and has a much better aggregate idea of what works and what doesn't, we all lose out on valuable information.


+1 on this...
Before I ordered my Fandango I had many questions on C-Dale vs Fandango and Alex took the time and answered all my questions.
We just spent another hour the other day talking Brakes and in the end, I'm very happy with my choice...
Thanks Alex for all your Help!!!


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

I have to disagree with Ben's comment above that, categorically, the ECDM is where it's at for trail riding. We roll pretty well thru a lot of varied and rough terrain, primarily singletrack, and the Fandango is a fantastic trail machine.

Would I like to own an ECDM? Sure. But, I don't need one based on a lack of performance from the Fandango platform. 

Just my $.02 for those on the fence about what to buy.


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## KR65 (Sep 8, 2013)

***Disclaimer - I have a Salsa El Mar and Fargo as my current rides, and am looking at a Muk***

I have no dog in this fight and my only comment is this...

First, the fine folks at Salsa are not dolts. It's a safe bet they know their target markets and it's another safe bet the Powderkeg will sell well.

Two, different strokes for different folks. Tandems are no different than any other bike in existence. Some rave about Brand X tandem and some rave about Brand Y tandem. Find a bike that fits your needs and style of riding and go have fun!

Being outdoors and riding amongst nature is so much more fun than arguing on the interwebz...

:lol:


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

KR65 said:


> Two, different strokes for different folks. Tandems are no different than any other bike in existence. Some rave about Brand X tandem and some rave about Brand Y tandem. Find a bike that fits your needs and style of riding and go have fun!


Kind of the crux of this whole thread, though, if you really read it.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

My wife and I got to ride a late version Powderkeg prototype, We rode it as we would our custom Curtlo hardtail tandem in the singletracks of Park City. It was a very fun bike to ride when the trails were not too rocky. The low bottom brackets did make it very difficult to avoid pedal strikes on rocks or grade dips. There were sections that we could not pedal enough to maintain enough momentum to clear rock gardens. putting a suspension fork could raise the captain's bb a bit but the stokers will still be too low. When I returned the bike I suggested raising bb height for singletrack use, the reply was that is not really the market for this bike. 
This is a good riding tandem, It is not appropriate for what many of us like to ride.
If you will not need any suspension it will probably be fine for you.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm not at all surprised by mactweek's ride impressions. If the bike had a BB drop of around 40mm instead of 60mm it would be a much more versatile mountain bike. No reason for 70 degree HT angle either, too much trail for a 45mm offset fork.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> If you are a mountain biker at heart, you will ride your tandem on technical trails, and your wife will follow because she won't know better until after the fact


This is EXACTLY what I wanted to say to plantdude! When I ordered our Cannondale in '97, I just assumed we'd "stay on fire roads." Well, that expectation lasted about a quarter of our first ride! We were off on single track right away and LOVING it!

Sounds like you're in the East Bay, right? We ride Joaquin Miller single track whenever we get the chance. Fire road is boring on a single and it's just as boring on a tandem - if not more so. All the single track we find fun and challenging on our single bikes is just THAT MUCH MORE FUN on the tandem. And don't forget that there's an added bonus of not really worrying about going over the bars. Just point and shoot and it's all good! (OK, not REALLY, but WAY more true than on a single.)

We've ridden Hermosa Creek and Trail 401 in Colorado. Attempted Slickrock twice but blew up two different hubs, so we never completed it. LOVE Sierra riding when we are in shape and get the chance. And enjoy local single track, from East Bay regional parks, China Camp and stuff on the peninsula. Dying to give the new Soquel Demo flow trail a go.

Now, if you have a partner who absolutely doesn't want to venture onto single track, then go with a rigid tandem. If she rides off road and likes adventure, why limit your options? You'll LOVE a plush fork up front. And with 20mm through axles and massive fork blades/sliders, you don't have to trade off benefits of suspension with sloppy steering - you can have your cake and eat it too!

I'm still riding a hard tail tandem - and loving it. Getting back in shape to ride Hole in the Ground at Donner Pass this summer. And some Tahoe Rim Trail too. Once the funds allow, I'll be going all in on a Ventana full suspension. Can't wait!

So perhaps you should get out and demo some tandem options so you end up buying what you end up needing. And I sincerely doubt a rigid tandem will meet your needs.

Cheers!

PS Why do I have more green "reputation" bars than TandemNut??? That makes NO sense. No sense whatsoever!!!


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## plantdude (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for the tips/suggestions.

I am in the east bay TandemBear (and right near JMP actually). While I can't see my wife wanting to bomb Cindy on the tandem, I do think having the capability and comfort to ride sunset, etc and redwood and Chabot would be ideal.

You've all convinced me; I'll wait and save up for an ECDM or simar FS set up.


Sent from a tiny keyboard


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

plantdude said:


> Thanks for the tips/suggestions.
> 
> I am in the east bay TandemBear (and right near JMP actually). While I can't see my wife wanting to bomb Cindy on the tandem, I do think having the capability and comfort to ride sunset, etc and redwood and Chabot would be ideal.
> 
> ...


Excellent!!!

PS I realize that my avatar pic was taken on Sequoia Bayview, so it should look pretty familiar.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yup, the stuff we do on a tandem is far more technical than my wife could do on a solo bike, both the up and the down. On solo bikes my wife could never come close to riding the stuff I ride.
> 
> On a tandem, I can use my skills to get us places that she could never get on her own, at the same time I get a tremendous workout because I push my physical and technical abilities by making a tandem do what a solo bike can do.
> 
> ...


Isn't that sexist?!!! Kidding.

It's true! True for me, at least. But not really sexist. I've spent many an hour riding up and down stairs and obstacles, honing my skills. This is something my wife has really no interest in doing. I'll spend hours on trials riding. In fact, I'm working on honing my skills now in hopes of making unicycling easier to wrap my almot-50-year-old-brain around. (Aside, my backwards riding skills are getting pretty decent. Boy was I thrilled this weekend to find that backwards riding on the tandem is EASIER! Cool!!!) Anyway, it's just a matter of what one enjoys doing on a bike.

My wife doesn't want to take the chances on her single that I take on my single. She also doesn't get a thrill from trials riding either. So when I'm on the tandem, my willingness and confidence to do hard stuff is a fair amount higher than hers. Plus, the tandem offers a certain level of stability that a single bike doesn't have (per my not going over the bars comment earlier).

That said, we just rode up a set of stairs at Lake Merritt over the weekend that was a total blast! They were just the right length and not TOO steep to allow a successful ascent, but a big challenge. We hadn't done a set of stairs like this yet. I knew we were right on the edge of not making it because the rear tire was struggling a bit to maintain traction. I'm pretty lucky to have a partner who trusts me enough to agree stuff like this! I'll add that I built up her trust from the beginning on a road tandem for a few years before delving into offroad tandems. I'll add that my wife also weighs 100 lbs. less than me, so I find it really easy to maintain control, change direction, and generally feel really in control of the direction of the bike. I feel a significant difference when I have a stoker weighing just 20 lbs. more. The closer a pair is in weight makes for more challenging captaining, in my experience. At least you have to be in that much better synch to avoid going down.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

How does one's reputation get the little green thingies?


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

It's the star on the lower left of the thread message. I forget that this exists. I go ahead and click the star for you.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ebnelson said:


> It's the star on the lower left of the thread message. I forget that this exists. I go ahead and click the star for you.


 Why thank you sir - I didn't even realize that was there. Guess my reputation precedes me...


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## Johnbonn (Apr 7, 2015)

Rich well said. We were torn between a fat tandem (think it is the coolest looking tandem out there) and a Cannondale and put a Lefty on it. Well we took your advice and took the dive into FS and we got a Davinci Symbiosis and can't image anything better. We had some concerns but after our first ride could not be more pleased. Cant imagine any better tandem for single tracking! Thank you for the advice on FS tendering! By the way we did ride the Cannondale 29er a test ride and for rails and trails I think you can't beat it at left over pricing our local shop quoted us 1725! Great riding position and nice and efficient but for what we were planning on doing not the tandem. The Davinci Symbiosis is just what we wanted and needed. Enjoy the ride!


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## sportsnapper (Apr 24, 2014)

> just assumed we'd "stay on fire roads." Well, that expectation lasted about a quarter of our first ride! We were off on single track right away and LOVING it!


Yep. We needed an off road tandem for fire roads and rougher stuff. We've done so much, much harder stuff than that, rocky downhill in Scotland etc. I get told off for braking! It's possibly not as scary at the back when you can see the drop....I don't know - I don't do the back seat!


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*How's the rear hub?*



Johnbonn said:


> Rich well said. We were torn between a fat tandem (think it is the coolest looking tandem out there) and a Cannondale and put a Lefty on it. Well we took your advice and took the dive into FS and we got a Davinci Symbiosis and can't image anything better. We had some concerns but after our first ride could not be more pleased. Cant imagine any better tandem for single tracking! Thank you for the advice on FS tendering! By the way we did ride the Cannondale 29er a test ride and for rails and trails I think you can't beat it at left over pricing our local shop quoted us 1725! Great riding position and nice and efficient but for what we were planning on doing not the tandem. The Davinci Symbiosis is just what we wanted and needed. Enjoy the ride!


I see it's spec'd with a WI rear hub. Is yours? How's it working out? How long/many miles on it?

Sweet bike. Feel free to post some gratuitous pictures!!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Great choice!

I think it's hard to pick a tandem the first time around. Alex suggested we get an ECDM, but I was being cheap (conservative) because I wasn't sure that riding a tandem would work for us.

If I wasn't such a gear hound, I'd have sprung for a Symbiosis this time around, but I wanted to play with wheel sizes and find the "perfect fit" so the next time I'll do a custom.

Most people end up doing more off road than they originally expected, which is why having more tandem than you need is a plus.

Suspension is "where it's at" for comfort and performance on anything but asphalt, but it's not a requirement, and because it is more expensive, it is less common. Big tires are fun, but they are not the same as suspension.

We're working toward one tandem and three wheel sets, then we can choose 



Johnbonn said:


> Rich well said. We were torn between a fat tandem (think it is the coolest looking tandem out there) and a Cannondale and put a Lefty on it. Well we took your advice and took the dive into FS and we got a Davinci Symbiosis and can't image anything better. We had some concerns but after our first ride could not be more pleased. Cant imagine any better tandem for single tracking! Thank you for the advice on FS tendering! By the way we did ride the Cannondale 29er a test ride and for rails and trails I think you can't beat it at left over pricing our local shop quoted us 1725! Great riding position and nice and efficient but for what we were planning on doing not the tandem. The Davinci Symbiosis is just what we wanted and needed. Enjoy the ride!


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

We now have 2 Powderkegs in the MTB Tandems demo fleet for folks to try out. In person, it's a nice looking package, and appears to be well thought-out, other than the component specs outlined earlier in the thread. Measured BB height is right at 12", so a little better than initially anticipated; the Cannondale T29, for comparison, is under 11".
Frame build quality looks good, the fork is a nice one with QR15 and lots of bottle bosses on it. Parts pick is pretty good so far - we'll see how it shakes out over time and use.
We'll probably take them with us this weekend when we meet ALM and MHopton and others at JackRabbit Trails in NC. Hope to get some folks on them for initial impressions.
The folks at Salsa have been pretty clear in conversations that this isn't meant to be the singletrack weapon that a Fandango or ECDM is, but more of a dirty tourer/gravel/all-surface tandem. For that use, it should do well.
We'll likely buy frames and put our own parts kit on it, at least until Salsa upgrades the wheelset. The wheels would make a decent pair of light-duty road wheels, and a 2nd, heavier-duty set of off-road or touring wheels would make a complete package, but that also runs the price up substantially. We'll have more to say once we've put some time on the Powderkeg. In the meantime, it's nice to have some activity within our little niche!


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Gotta admit....these are pretty cool. I enjoyed my demo ride around the parking lot.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## xcelr8 (Mar 29, 2007)

Tonight will be the first ride on the new tandem. I made a few changes to the stock build which included a MRP Stoke fork, WTB Scraper front rim, Ardent 2.4 rear, Chronicle front tire, and Saint brakes with 203mm ice tech rotors.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

That looks nice....................you might end up clipping a few trees and gate posts with those wide stoker bars though.


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## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

xcelr8 said:


> Tonight will be the first ride on the new tandem. I made a few changes to the stock build which included a MRP Stoke fork, WTB Scraper front rim, Ardent 2.4 rear, Chronicle front tire, and Saint brakes with 203mm ice tech rotors.


How's the clearance up front? Which hubs?


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## xcelr8 (Mar 29, 2007)

sisu said:


> How's the clearance up front? Which hubs?


I used the stock hub and laced it to a WTB Scrapper Rim. The maxxis tire fit with a few mm of clearance but under hard cornering it would rub slightly. I have since swapped it out for a Geax 2.4 Gomma on the Scrapper Rim which makes this tire pretty wide. The Geax sized out at around a 2.6-2.7 with a bit less volume but much more clearance. I Need a 29+ tire that is just a little shy of 3.0.


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## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

You might try the Vee Trax Fatty or a Knard. Of the two I think the Vee tire was a bit narrower. I had them on 40mm rims. Pretty sure both were under 3".


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## Iowagriz (Jan 14, 2008)

Any updates on ride quality of the PowderKeg? For those that have ridden, what are your impressions? For those that own, what would you change?

Looking for midwest gravel grinder (the target audience).


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## sisu (Sep 16, 2006)

Alex Nutt at mtbtandems.com stocks this bike and could put you in touch with people who have some miles on the bike. I think Jay and Tracy Petervary have one, friend him on FB and he'll give you the dope (he's a salsa rider so he might be biased).

For my money, the drop-bar Cannondale Alex sells is a better deal (use a Cirrus Cycles Body Float on any bike you get).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TonyMcG (Apr 14, 2006)

I was hoping to see a few more reviews of the Powderkeg from people that actually own and ride them. I have only seen a handful in person with the first being Jay and Tracy Petervary's at DK in 2015. At Gravel Worlds last year, I ran into JP in the hotel lobby and he had converted his Powderkeg to dropbar with Salsa Cowchippers. He had also replaced the Terravail Sparwood for narrower Cannonballs.

My wife and I have been riding an old Santana Noventa for the last 5 years, but the stoker seat tube is too long to fit a suspension seatpost under my short stoker. The LG/SM Powderkeg should give her plenty of room and my grandkids will grow into it quicker. We will probably never ride it on anything rougher than Midwest gravel roads or rail trails, so I think that the bigger tires and Thudbuster should be more comfortable than the old Santana.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

If you would only be riding gravel roads and rail trails the Powderkeg should be great. I would contact Alex at mtbtandems.com he will have more experience with what works and what doesn't than almost anyone. He sells these and would know of any issues people are having with them. He may be able to build up a frame with "tandem rated" parts for about the same price as the Salsa build. I would be concerned about the Shimano hubs in particular. Tandems put a lot of stress on hubs, especially climbing.


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## Jbull (Jan 17, 2017)

Tonymcg
I will weigh in on your question because I own a powderkeg but with a few caveats you should be aware before you take my advice to the bank:
1. It's our first tandem of any type
2. We are middle aged ( mid 40s) and probably slow compared to the hard core folks on this forum 
3. We have ridden the powderkeg about a total of 30ish miles since buying it about a month ago. Weather has not been good in Colorado for much riding this winter 
4. I have not ridden any other modern tandems to offer any kind of comparison 
5. Our tandem is bone stock factory except for a cushy gel stoker seat 
That said, we are having a ball riding the powderkeg. We have ridden some asphalt where I was surprised by its outright speed, two track jeep roads where it seemed right at home and about 7ish miles of intermediate (blue) single track in Moab. 
We absolutely loved riding single track. We were able to go places my wife cannot go on her own and at a much faster pace than the two of us can go together while on singles. We are planning a trip to Sedona this weekend for more single track fun. 
We have a lg/sm. I am 6"1' she is 5"3'. Sizing seems about perfect for us. We are not a lightweight team at just about 380lbs dressed to ride. So far I have no reason to complain about anything. Rigid fork. SLX components. Stans flow wheels. I know this is not top notch stuff, but so far it all works... we will upgrade if and when we break things. Till then we are just planning to have fun. My greatest regret about my MTB tandem is that we didn't buy one sooner. 
Jeff


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Ain't a MTB tandem GREAT!


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## Jbull (Jan 17, 2017)

Wow - i just read thru this entire thread. Sorry for the early controversy and somebody going home mad.
I thought after reading I might share my naive thought processes for anyone who is still considering a Powderkeg if it should help in your decision processes: Before buying a powderkeg, I was pretty sure I would like riding tandems with my wife, but I was a lot less sure whether or not she would like it, so I was a little gun shy about spending big $$ on full suspension etc. I was however, certain that if I made it a bad experience for her, we would be done tandeming pretty quick. So I liked the idea of a moderately priced bike for a trial at tandems (and found mine for $1000 off thru my LBS which made me feel good about supporting my local shop and put the price where it was easier to pull the trigger.) I also liked the idea of a steel bike vs aluminum, with the thought that steel hardtail frame might be more forgiving to the stoker vs aluminum. (earlier in this thread real experts with experience - of which I am not one, seem to disagree with this line of thinking) My stoker who has no other frame of reference on a tandem - but does ride a full suspension single - thinks the ride is pretty smooth with the thudbuster seatpost and a gel saddle. She says she stands up if I do, and I can't see what she is doing back there so we just ride. Maybe ignorance IS bliss. I can't really say if the steel frame is impacting her perceptions of ride quality or not. For what it is worth - my evil plan to get my wife stoked on stoking seems to have worked. We did a couple of break in rides (break in of the team not the bike) on pavement, followed by a trial of 2 track dirt (which is what I was anticipating would be our go-to riding style) followed by what I thought would be a BIG stretch for our abilities and my stoker's level of trust in me on single track. I totally, completely underestimated the adventurous nature of my wife/stoker who had the "best ride ever" on our first attempt at single track. She says more please! So, perhaps I under purchased for our first tandem. Not sure it really matters to me at this point. We are having fun riding a bike together. More fun than we ever have riding singles together. Pretty cool.

That said, I would love to try some of the really high end stuff described earlier in the thread, and will be paying close attention to where Alex Nutt is going with a trailer full of demo bikes. (Alex feel free to check out Cortez CO or anywhere in the vicinity Phil's World is calling you, and we have a nice guest room) I can't imagine having MORE fun than we already are, but if the ventanas and fandangos and Calfees are as good as everyone on this thread says...


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## TonyMcG (Apr 14, 2006)

I ordered a Powderkeg this afternoon. QBP had a 20% discount on them that I couldn't pass up. I am going to swap out the captain handlebars with Jones Loop H-Bars, and the stoker handlebars with Woodchippers from my Fargo. I also ordered an Alternator Rack and a Banjo Brothers trunk bag. I will probably replace the WTB Pure V for a Brooks Cambium C17 Carved, and I will let my stoker decide whether she wants to change saddles. The bike should arrive Monday, and I will head over to my LBS to supervise the assembly. We have been talking about riding a few days of RAGBRAI this year, and I am looking forward to showing my wife why I prefer gravel roads over asphalt.

By this time next year, I hope to have better wheelset and I am going to try and squeeze a pair of Surly Extraterrestrials on it.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

Congratulations. Enjoy the tandem.


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## Johnbonn (Apr 7, 2015)

xcelr8 said:


> Tonight will be the first ride on the new tandem. I made a few changes to the stock build which included a MRP Stoke fork, WTB Scraper front rim, Ardent 2.4 rear, Chronicle front tire, and Saint brakes with 203mm ice tech rotors.


Just looking for an update. How is the Powderkeg working out? What is the widest tire you can fit in the rear? How are the brakes? Anything you would do different? What other tandems did you look at before making the decision on the Powderkeg and why? 
Thank you JB


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