# Linky ...mtbr tells... WHY



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Mtbr is covering e-bikes and here?s why - Mtbr.com


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

More for eyes to ponder...

SRAM EX1 e-bike component group first look - Mtbr.com


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

People are getting lazier and lazier and those who can make money off of it will, shame MTBR is also pandering to this and not encouraging people to embrace the entire ideal that is MTBing  e-bikes are great for commuting, old people and disabled people who need help, but fat lazy people who just don't want to put in the effort :nono:


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

LyNx said:


> People are getting lazier and lazier and those who can make money off of it will, shame MTBR is also pandering to this and not encouraging people to embrace the entire ideal that is MTBing  e-bikes are great for commuting, old people and disabled people who need help, but fat lazy people who just don't want to put in the effort :nono:


 How does someone else riding a Class 1 ebike affect you? The existence of such a machine does not prevent or inhibit you in any way from pedaling your ass off anytime you want on any trail you want. We have had ebikes and pbikes sharing the trails for over 6 months with no reported incidents AFAIK and I am certain that if there were the anti's would have let us know all about it. So what's the big deal?


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't really care if they cover e-bikes or not, but I kind of wish the first article just said "because our sponsors pay us to" somewhere in there.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Because $$$.

Duh.

If they get bikes banned from a bunch of trails, that will lose them more money in the long run than they made up front, but c'est la vie. Gotta keep an eye on the next quarterly earnings report, right?

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Because $$$.
> 
> Duh.


Yep.

Everything on this site - classifieds, forums, articles, reviews is "Because $$$".

Why are they going to cover e-mtbs? Because $$$

Why do they cover mountain bikes at all? Because $$$

People don't start a business to NOT make money.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sure. I have a bike business. I've probably had a half dozen people come to me to build them electric mountain bikes over the last 5 years - presumably because I'm known for being willing/able to take on very unusual projects. These were people willing to spend considerable money, and I would have made a solid profit.

I said no. 

Why? Because I care about trail access 20 or 30 years from now, or more. I want to ride singletrack with my kids. I want them to be able to ride with *their* kids. If e-bikes are even a slight threat to trail access, I want nothing to do with them - and I think they're actually a big threat. 

Running a good business is more than taking maximizing profit at all costs. 

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Sure. I have a bike business. I've probably had a half dozen people come to me to build them electric mountain bikes over the last 5 years - presumably because I'm known for being willing/able to take on very unusual projects. These were people willing to spend considerable money, and I would have made a solid profit.
> 
> I said no.
> 
> ...


I'd say you're just attempting to maximize profit by avoiding short term profit at the expense of greater long term profit.

You're playing the long game instead of the short game (and you may be right or wrong)...but the game is still to maximize overall profits.


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## WaywardTraveller (Oct 2, 2011)

aborgman said:


> I'd say you're just attempting to maximize profit by avoiding short term profit at the expense of greater long term profit.
> 
> You're playing the long game instead of the short game (and you may be right or wrong)...but the game is still to maximize overall profits.


IMHO, that is harshly cynical given what OP posted.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm wondering why I posted this...


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm wondering why I posted this...


I assumed that when you decided to moderate this subforum that you were a masochist of some kind. I further assume the original post is a symptom of that.

You know what they say about assuming, you are almost always right. I assume that's how the saying goes anyway.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

WaywardTraveller said:


> IMHO, that is harshly cynical given what OP posted.


As someone who believes there is no such animal as "enlightened self interest" and only "self interest" - I don't think it's cynical at all. To be cynical, one would have to believe there is something wrong with that behavior... and I don't think it's wrong, I think it's human nature.

EVERYTHING we do in life is a cost-benefit analysis. The costs/benefits aren't always monetary, but every decision is a cost-benefit analysis.


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## WaywardTraveller (Oct 2, 2011)

aborgman said:


> As someone who believes there is no such animal as "enlightened self interest" and only "self interest" - I don't think it's cynical at all. To be cynical, one would have to believe there is something wrong with that behavior... and I don't think it's wrong, I think it's human nature.
> 
> EVERYTHING we do in life is a cost-benefit analysis. The costs/benefits aren't always monetary, but every decision is a cost-benefit analysis.


Pretentious much? Good god man, he clearly voiced his motives as being related to retaining trail access in the future and you're here doubling down on it being financially motivated.

You were being so cynical you didn't even realize what you were doing.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

WaywardTraveller said:


> Pretentious much? Good god man, he clearly voiced his motives as being related to retaining trail access in the future and you're here doubling down on it being financially motivated.


Reading.Is.Fundamental.

"The costs/benefits aren't always monetary"

I specifically said the cost/benefit analysis isn't always financial.

Heck - repeated studies show that a primary driver of charitable giving is that it increases the happiness level of the giver.


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## WaywardTraveller (Oct 2, 2011)

aborgman said:


> Reading.Is.Fundamental.
> 
> "The costs/benefits aren't always monetary"
> 
> ...


Revisionist much? I mean, THIS is where you started:



aborgman; said:


> I'd say you're just attempting to maximize profit by avoiding short term profit at the expense of greater long term profit.
> 
> You're playing the long game instead of the short game (and you may be right or wrong)...but the game is still to maximize overall profits.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

WaywardTraveller said:


> Revisionist much? I mean, THIS is where you started:


Yes.

Profit is merely benefit - cost, it doesn't necessarily imply monetary profit.

One can profit in monetary transactions, one can profit in barter transactions, and one can profit in emotional transactions.


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## WaywardTraveller (Oct 2, 2011)

Dude, that is NOT what you posted and clearly and absolutely NOT what you meant no matter how hard you try to twist it to be so. You were being a dick and now you're just being a bigger dick.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

WaywardTraveller said:


> Dude, that is NOT what you posted and clearly and absolutely NOT what you meant no matter how hard you try to twist it to be so. You were being a dick and now you're just being a bigger dick.


Well - nice to know you can not only read minds, but are also incapable of debating without resorting to personal attacks.

I can't imagine the day my self esteem is so poor I let someone commenting on the internet get me riled.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Has anyone just considered that EMTB's are fun to ride??? That's why I bought one, a Specialized Turbo Levo. The bike is an absolute hoot to ride!!! For me it's just an added dimension of cycling, a completely new experience, and just adds to the fun and joy of cycling. If you haven't ridden one yet I highly recommend it.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

JVG1967 said:


> Has anyone just considered that EMTB's are fun to ride??? That's why I bought one, a Specialized Turbo Levo. The bike is an absolute hoot to ride!!! For me it's just an added dimension of motorcycling, a completely new experience, and just adds to the fun and joy of motorcycling. If you haven't ridden one yet I highly recommend it.


Thanks anyway.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> Thanks anyway.


I laugh every time I see responses like this. A pedal assist bike, which the Levo is, is not a motorcycle because..... Wait for it..... You have to pedal to go anywhere. A motorcycle doesn't have pedals and has a hand throttle. Motorcycles traditionally are also powered by a gasoline engine. There is a big difference between the two.

Yes the Levo has an electric motor but it is NOT a motorcycle, not even close.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm wondering why I posted this...


Because you are a nice guy with an open mind. Not so common, really.

I think somebody should get the terminology straight.

you write "e-bikes" and Walt and others respond as if you are talking about no pedals.

Pedelec?
Pebike?

E-bike is a big blanket. Mtbr is not covering e-bikes, they are going to cover a subset. 250watt pedelec. Which they compare with Donald Trump LOL.

What the best short name for the levo type bikes?


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Because you are a nice guy with an open mind. Not so common, really.
> 
> I think somebody should get the terminology straight.
> 
> ...


Pedelec or class 1 Ebike.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

JVG1967 said:


> I laugh every time I see responses like this. A pedal assist bike, which the Levo is, is not a motorcycle because..... Wait for it..... You have to pedal to go anywhere. A motorcycle doesn't have pedals and has a hand throttle. Motorcycles traditionally are also powered by a gasoline engine. There is a big difference between the two.
> 
> Yes the Levo has an electric motor but it is NOT a motorcycle, not even close.


cycle: noun 4. a bicycle, motorcycle, tricycle, etc. 


JVG1967 said:


> Yes the Levo has an electric motor


"cycle" + a motor = MOTORCYCLE!


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Johnny_T said:


> cycle: noun 4. a bicycle, motorcycle, tricycle, etc.
> 
> "cycle" + a motor = MOTORCYCLE!


mo·tor·cy·cle
ˈmōdərˌsīk(ə)l/

noun
noun: motorcycle; plural noun: motorcycles

a two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has no pedals.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Two articles about these low power electric motorcycles that sites like MTBR.com are pimping. The Jimmy Mac one is a nice example of a MTB media person with integrity.

Exclusive Jimmy Mac Interview - "Why I left Mountain Bike Action" | Steve Tilford

Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bs, the article can be summed up in this sentence-



> In the rest of the world e-bikes are already a huge business. Sales are expected to total $15.7 billion this year and will reach an estimated $24.3 billion by 2025 according to Navigant Research.


I could give a flying fork what people do with their electric bikes but just don't call them bicycles, classify them with bicycles, or associate them with bicycles. They are not bicycles, nor are they an improvement or "upgrade" to a bicycle. They might be considered an improvement to a motorcycle, or a downgrade, depending on your view.

The *only* reason they have pedals on them at all is to allow them to fall into a legal loophole so they can snake in on the same trails mtb's are currently allowed on, and so manufactures can pocket a kazillion dollars along the way. If that weren't the case they would have more power and no pedals.

Remember mopeds? Same thing, once the door was open the pedals went away pretty quick.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

So if I put pedals on a 5000W motor bike, which can, say, go 60mph on the road, it's still a bicycle? Where's the limit? The pedals are really pretty irrelevant. If I have a rocket powered motorcycle that only fires the rocket when I start pedaling, it's not a bike. It's a rocket. Right? 

Either it's powered by a human with no help, or it's powered by a motor+human like any number of Mopeds (though those rarely have pedals anymore). 

-Walt


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> So if I put pedals on a 5000W motor bike, which can, say, go 60mph on the road, it's still a bicycle? Where's the limit? The pedals are really pretty irrelevant. If I have a rocket powered motorcycle that only fires the rocket when I start pedaling, it's not a bike. It's a rocket. Right?
> 
> Either it's powered by a human with no help, or it's powered by a motor+human like any number of Mopeds (though those rarely have pedals anymore).
> 
> -Walt


I'm only talking about Class 1 E Bikes. Anything else should be restricted to motorized trails only.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

How are you going to enforce that?

-Walt


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> How are you going to enforce that?
> 
> -Walt


That's a valid concern. Right now it's fairly easy to tell the difference between a class 1 and class 3 E Bike. Just look at a Levo vs a Stealth Cycles bike. It's pretty obvious the Stealth is packing more power than the Levo. Class 1 vs Class 2 isn't as easy and as the technology gets better it will get harder to tell the difference between the different classes.

Personally I don't think there should be different classes, only class 1 pedelecs.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To the general public/land managers, they are all going to *look* like mountain bikes. So really there won't be a way to keep very powerful stuff off the trail if you start allowing them at all. Nobody is going to stand at the trailhead and dyno everyone's bike.

-Walt


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Walt said:


> To the general public/land managers, they are all going to *look* like mountain bikes. So really there won't be a way to keep very powerful stuff off the trail if you start allowing them at all. Nobody is going to stand at the trailhead and dyno everyone's bike.
> 
> -Walt


They could just use radar and ticket anything that is going too fast.
They already do.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

It really strikes me why mt bikers would be negative towards e-bikes, but everyone has their opinions... personally if all the e-bikers get pissed off they can join with the motos and then

Watcha ya gonna do when Moto-mania runs wild on you!


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

How do you regulate this, are you going to sit at the trailheads and check each bike, because that is what it'll take :skep: Let me tell you in case it didn't cross your mind, it's an electronic device, it has a computer, the computer only needs to be hacked to make it go much faster, no external changes, just less mileage per battery charge, no one but the owner the wiser, see cops with radar, slow down or users start to carry walkie talkies to warn each other, doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the future.


JVG1967 said:


> I'm only talking about Class 1 E Bikes. Anything else should be restricted to motorized trails only.


Really, it "strikes you" that we're against a push by greedy manufacturers and lazy people to introduce something to trail systems that goes completely against the ethos of mountain biking - weird :skep: ut:


NEPMTBA said:


> It really strikes me why mt bikers would be negative towards e-bikes, but everyone has their opinions... personally if all the e-bikers get pissed off they can join with the motos and then
> 
> Watcha ya gonna do when Moto-mania runs wild on you!


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

JVG1967 said:


> I laugh every time I see responses like this. A pedal assist bike, which the Levo is, is not a motorcycle because..... Wait for it..... You have to pedal to go anywhere. A motorcycle doesn't have pedals and has a hand throttle. Motorcycles traditionally are also powered by a gasoline engine. There is a big difference between the two.
> 
> Yes the Levo has an electric motor but it is NOT a motorcycle, not even close.


Well that and....

Bicycling = cycling.
Motorcycling = cycling.

and... to really blows folks mind:

A motorcycle is a type of bicycle.

The "bicycle" applies to any vehicle with two wheels in tandem.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> So if I put pedals on a 5000W motor bike, which can, say, go 60mph on the road, it's still a bicycle?


Any vehicel with two wheels in tandem, human powered or not, is a bicycle.



Walt said:


> Where's the limit?


Wherever the elected officials in the legislature set it.

Here in Michigan - an air rifle is legally a firearm. So the legislature doesn't even have to adhere to logic. If they want to say any car with less than 50HP is a bicycle - it is.



Walt said:


> The pedals are really pretty irrelevant. If I have a rocket powered motorcycle that only fires the rocket when I start pedaling, it's not a bike. It's a rocket. Right?


If it stays on the ground and the two wheels are in tandem - it's a bike. A rocket bike.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

All my local MTB/Hiking trails ban any motorized use including electric motorcycles with pedals even if they are branded by a bicycle company and sold at a LBS.

It's also great to see that even in a mecca for motorcycles they are banned on mountain bike and hiking trails:

Moab Bans Electric Bikes on Mountain Bike Trails - Mountain Bikes News Stories - Vital MTB



> Motor Assisted Bicycles: The Moab BLM has determined that motor assisted bicycles (electric, gas or diesel) are "motorized vehicles." Use of motor assisted bicycles is only allowed on motorized trails. Please visit the motorized recreation pages for trail information.
> 
> Regulations found at 43 CFR 8340.0-5(a) define an "off road vehicle" as "...any motorized vehicle capable of, or designed for, travel on or immediately over land, water, or other natural terrain..." Furthermore, regulations found at 43 CFR 8342.1 direct the BLM to designate routes as either available for or not available for off road (motorized) vehicles.
> 
> Since electric assist bikes have a motor, they fit under the definition provided in 43 CFR 8340.0-5(a) as off road (motorized) vehicles. Thus, electric bikes are allowed only on routes designated for off road (motorized) vehicle use and prohibited from routes that have been designated only for non-off road (non-motorized) vehicle use. At this time, there is no other BLM guidance specific to managing electric assist bikes, so the Moab Field Office is managing the use as motorized based on the rationale described above.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

LyNx said:


> Really, it "strikes you" that we're against a push by greedy manufacturers and lazy people to introduce something to trail systems that goes completely against the ethos of mountain biking - weird :skep: ut:


You know what's really weird? This idea that there is an "ethos of mountain biking".


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

JVG1967 said:


> mo·tor·cy·cle
> ˈmōdərˌsīk(ə)l/
> 
> noun
> ...


OK, it is a bike with a motor:

motor + bike = motorbike

Call it an eMotorBike if you like, but there is still a motor so it is not allowed on non-MOTORized trails. Same as motorcycle.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Johnny_T said:


> OK, it is a bike with a motor:
> 
> motor + bike = motorbike
> 
> Call it an eMotorBike if you like, but there is still a motor so it is not allowed on non-MOTORized trails. Same as motorcycle.


That will depend on the legislature and how they choose to define "motorized", as well as how state, federal, and private land managers choose to define "motorized".


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

JVG1967 said:


> Has anyone just considered that EMTB's are fun to ride??? That's why I bought one, a Specialized Turbo Levo. The bike is an absolute hoot to ride!!! For me it's just an added dimension of cycling, a completely new experience, and just adds to the fun and joy of cycling. If you haven't ridden one yet I highly recommend it.


I bet they are a blast. I have no problem with them and I agree they would be fun to ride. I might even end up owning some form of emotorbike to help with my commute to work as it is on the edge of getting too difficult when I am not in top shape. My only concern is that our trail systems in and around the Colorado front range are already to the point of being so crowded at times that they are getting difficult to enjoy. If emotorbikes were ever allowed on these trails (luckily they are not) it would bring huge numbers of people who are not dedicated to being fit enough to ride them and would overwhelm the trails even more. I know it is being selfish of me to not want to share the trails, but it is what it is. I feel the same way about the downhill guys that shuttle rides in a pickup to the top of a mountain and bomb down. I think crawling up a long steep climb gives you a different perspective and respect for the trail that people with motors don't have or need. Just making up numbers but I would guess maybe 5% of the population could possibly enjoy these trails currently. You bring emotorbikes into the equation, that number would probably be closer to 50%. If the emotorbikes could bring 10 times the trails with them it might be a good deal for all, but I don't see that happening.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> More for eyes to ponder...
> 
> SRAM EX1 e-bike component group first look - Mtbr.com


Read between the lines!

Why does one need any of this re-engineered drivetrain? Afterall, it's just a pedal-bike that offers a rider some assist....just a little assist, right? What's the Big deal?!

Fat asses get fatter. More aggro a**holes on our trails. Manufacturers profit.

Suggestion to mtbr.com. Dump eBikes completely off this site and start a designated eBike site. Make sure you put a "Politics Only" forum in it so maybe...just _maybe_ it will be more successful than that trainwreck Roadbikereview.com.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Johnny_T said:


> I bet they are a blast. I have no problem with them and I agree they would be fun to ride. I might even end up owning some form of emotorbike to help with my commute to work as it is on the edge of getting too difficult when I am not in top shape. My only concern is that our trail systems in and around the Colorado front range are already to the point of being so crowded at times that they are getting difficult to enjoy. If emotorbikes were ever allowed on these trails (luckily they are not) it would bring huge numbers of people who are not dedicated to being fit enough to ride them and would overwhelm the trails even more. I know it is being selfish of me to not want to share the trails, but it is what it is. I feel the same way about the downhill guys that shuttle rides in a pickup to the top of a mountain and bomb down. I think crawling up a long steep climb gives you a different perspective and respect for the trail that people with motors don't have or need. Just making up numbers but I would guess maybe 5% of the population could possibly enjoy these trails currently. You bring emotorbikes into the equation, that number would probably be closer to 50%. If the emotorbikes could bring 10 times the trails with them it might be a good deal for all, but I don't see that happening.


With the prices of pedal assist bikes are commanding, I doubt your going to see a huge amount of people riding them on trails any time soon.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

How long before Walmart has one? They had a fatbike 3 or 4 years ago. They'll be all over immediately. 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Suggestion to mtbr.com. Dump eBikes completely off this site and start a designated eBike site. Make sure you put a "Politics Only" forum in it so maybe...just _maybe_ it will be more successful than that trainwreck Roadbikereview.com.


Yes, please.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> How long before Walmart has one? They had a fatbike 3 or 4 years ago. They'll be all over immediately.


Half the bikes in my local Walmart are fatbikes.

I still almost never see a fatbike in the woods.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

As soon as someone who bitxhes about eBikes on trails shows me their full rigid singlespeed that they ride exclusively, I'll listen to their inane arguments about why eBikes should not be on trails. An eBike assists the rider, just like derailleurs, suspension, carbon frames, larger wheels/tires. Obviously, there is a gray area where they become "motorcycle", but other than your fragile ego, why does it matter whether someone gets there on a Levo or a Tallboy?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

aborgman said:


> Half the bikes in my local Walmart are fatbikes.
> 
> I still almost never see a fatbike in the woods.


 They're waiting for delivery of the motor kit and the battery, they'll start to show up in a few months. Electric bikes including fatbikes are going to be the hot Xmas present some December not too far off (2018?) and then the numbers will grow quickly. The prices are dropping and the mass retailers are dipping a toe into the water (Cabelas, Bass Pro, Wally World, etc) by selling a small number of units at selected stores to see how it goes.

IMHO, the big holdup on the retail side is fear of liability if there are a rash of battery fires like the hover boards had this winter and spring. Once the mass merchants have the confidence they can sell ebikes with no untoward warranty costs, like lithium power tools today, then ebikes will be sold (and ridden) nearly everywhere that you see pbikes today.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> bs, the article can be summed up in this sentence-
> 
> I could give a flying fork what people do with their electric bikes but just don't call them bicycles, classify them with bicycles, or associate them with bicycles. They are not bicycles, nor are they an improvement or "upgrade" to a bicycle. They might be considered an improvement to a motorcycle, or a downgrade, depending on your view.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> They're waiting for delivery of the motor kit and the battery, they'll start to show up in a few months. Electric bikes including fatbikes are going to be the hot Xmas present some December not too far off (2018?) and then the numbers will grow quickly. The prices are dropping and the mass retailers are dipping a toe into the water (Cabelas, Bass Pro, Wally World, etc) by selling a small number of units at selected stores to see how it goes.
> 
> IMHO, the big holdup on the retail side is fear of liability if there are a rash of battery fires like the hover boards had this winter and spring. Once the mass merchants have the confidence they can sell ebikes with no untoward warranty costs, like lithium power tools today, then ebikes will be sold (and ridden) nearly everywhere that you see pbikes today.


This will just add to kids laziness and refusal to do anything physical. It is just going to contribute to the obesity in this county.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> As soon as someone who bitxhes about eBikes on trails shows me their full rigid singlespeed that they ride exclusively, I'll listen to their inane arguments about why eBikes should not be on trails. An eBike assists the rider, just like derailleurs, suspension, carbon frames, larger wheels/tires. Obviously, there is a gray area where they become "motorcycle", but other than your fragile ego, why does it matter whether someone gets there on a Levo or a Tallboy?


It is all about the motor. All those things you mentioned improve the ride but the motor is still human, not electric.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Johnny_T said:


> It is all about the motor. All those things you mentioned improve the ride but the motor is still human, not electric.


 So what? Equestrians are allowed access and they aren't human powered either. As long as the speed, weight and trail impact are in the ballpark what difference does it make? The mere presence of an ebike does not prevent you from pedaling as much (or as little) as you want.

Where I live Class 1 eMTBs and pMTBs share the same singletrack, how does my arriving at the top of the mountain on my Class 1 have any effect whatsoever on a pMTBers pedaling experience?

BTW, I don't accept the arguement that one has to burn X number of calories to be worthy of trail access. If that was the case, horse riders would have been excluded years ago for the very real fact that the horse is doing ALL the work. I suspect that a Class 1 ebike rider who must, by law, use a PAS and not a throttle, burns far more calories on a given trail than any horseback rider. So what's all the fuss about: fragile egos and hurt feelings?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> So what? Equestrians are allowed access and they aren't human powered either. As long as the speed, weight and trail impact are in the ballpark what difference does it make?


Horses are not propelled by a motor, it is an important distinction that is obviously lost on you.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

WoodlandHills said:


> They're waiting for delivery of the motor kit and the battery, they'll start to show up in a few months. Electric bikes including fatbikes are going to be the hot Xmas present some December not too far off (2018?) and then the numbers will grow quickly. The prices are dropping and the mass retailers are dipping a toe into the water (Cabelas, Bass Pro, Wally World, etc) by selling a small number of units at selected stores to see how it goes.
> 
> IMHO, the big holdup on the retail side is fear of liability if there are a rash of battery fires like the hover boards had this winter and spring. Once the mass merchants have the confidence they can sell ebikes with no untoward warranty costs, like lithium power tools today, then ebikes will be sold (and ridden) nearly everywhere that you see pbikes today.


Thing is...IME - 90% of the pedal bikes I see very obviously never go offroad, and 99.9% of the Walmart MTBs never touch any dirt at all.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Johnny_T said:


> It is all about the motor. All those things you mentioned improve the ride but the motor is still human, not electric.


 The OP was the one that called an MTB a human motor powered vehicle. I was pointing out that there is a long established precedent for humans riding on non-human powered vehicles to have access to trails.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

aborgman said:


> Thing is...IME - 90% of the pedal bikes I see very obviously never go offroad, and 99.9% of the Walmart MTBs never touch any dirt at all.


 That's because they are crap MTBs, just like their eMTBs will be crap...... That doesn't mean they won't sell a shitload of them or that people won't try to take them off-road. It just means that after they find out how crappy a Wally World MTB is with a motor, they will end up buying a slightly better one from BD next time!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> That's because they are crap MTBs, just like their eMTBs will be crap...... That doesn't mean they won't sell a shitload of them or that people won't try to take them off-road. It just means that after they find out how crappy a Wally World MTB is with a motor, they will end up buying a slightly better one from BD next time!


Exactly. Mass market is on the way, for sure. You can buy a trailworthy mountain bike for $500 brand new if you shop around right now. I imagine a decent Ebike will be under $1000 within a few years. Of course there will still be high end $10k+ stuff for retired lawyers, same as non-e-bikes.

-Walt

-Wlat


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> So what? Equestrians are allowed access and they aren't human powered either. As long as the speed, weight and trail impact are in the ballpark what difference does it make? The mere presence of an ebike does not prevent you from pedaling as much (or as little) as you want.
> 
> Where I live Class 1 eMTBs and pMTBs share the same singletrack, how does my arriving at the top of the mountain on my Class 1 have any effect whatsoever on a pMTBers pedaling experience?
> 
> BTW, I don't accept the arguement that one has to burn X number of calories to be worthy of trail access. If that was the case, horse riders would have been excluded years ago for the very real fact that the horse is doing ALL the work. I suspect that a Class 1 ebike rider who must, by law, use a PAS and not a throttle, burns far more calories on a given trail than any horseback rider. So what's all the fuss about: fragile egos and hurt feelings?


As I said in another post, a lot of my bias against emotorbikes is not that they aren't fun and I don't buy the argument that they do more trail damage (at least not low-powered ones). My biggest issue with them is that they will allow the masses to get out on MY (yes, I know it is being selfish) trails. Right now it takes some fitness, some motivation and a whole lot of effort to enjoy riding serious trails. Going on a real mountain bike ride when you are out of shape isn't a lot of fun. By taking all that out of the equation, and letting anybody who buys a motor access the trails is going to overwhelm them in many areas and take a whole lot of the fun out of riding. The trails I enjoy are non-motorized in my area but it concerns me that many of the emotorbike users here seem to see that as a grey area. Non-motorized means if you have a motor on your bike, I will report you (to who? that is another issue). Ride to your hearts content on motorized legal trails, I am sure it fun for you.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

WoodlandHills said:


> That's because they are crap MTBs, just like their eMTBs will be crap...... That doesn't mean they won't sell a shitload of them or that people won't try to take them off-road. It just means that after they find out how crappy a Wally World MTB is with a motor, they will end up buying a slightly better one from BD next time!


It means they will leave their trashed, junk bikes and batteries, and pop bottles, and candy wrappers laying all over the trails.

They want any easy way out. Just like the riders who use the trails but won't build or maintain them.

A new user group wants access to trails? Earn access through hard work - oh, wait, this is the same group that wants the easy way out.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Miker J said:


> It means they will leave their trashed, junk bikes and batteries, and pop bottles, and candy wrappers laying all over the trails.
> 
> They want any easy way out. Just like the riders who use the trails but won't build or maintain them.
> 
> A new user group wants access to trails? Earn access through hard work - oh, wait, this is the same group that wants the easy way out.


 Ebikers have been told quite clearly, many times that they are "motorized" and that there is no place for us on your trails. That being the case, why should we help to build or to maintain trails we will never (if they have their way) be allowed access? The minds are closed against us so why bother to contribute? It's not like our opponents will be swayed by facts, logic or goodwill........


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

We're not asking you for contributions. You could prove your good intentions by showing up and pitching in and making friends and doing your part to keep trails open/open new ones. But when I suggested that, the crowd said I was holding the e-bike folks to an unreasonably high standard.

No problem, though. Ride moto trails, and bring your non-motorized bike (or hike) on the rest. 

-Walt


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> We're not asking you for contributions. You could prove your good intentions by showing up and pitching in and making friends and doing your part to keep trails open/open new ones. But when I suggested that, the crowd said I was holding the e-bike folks to an unreasonably high standard.
> 
> No problem, though. Ride moto trails, and bring your non-motorized bike (or hike) on the rest.
> 
> -Walt


Actually an EBIKE rider could use the bike to tow a trailer/cart and carry all the tools.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

JVG1967 said:


> Actually an EBIKE rider could use the bike to tow a trailer/cart and carry all the tools.


Actually, no they can't due to being prohibited from riding on most single track.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

JVG1967 said:


> Actually an EBIKE rider could use the bike to tow a trailer/cart and carry all the tools.


I thought they weren't any different than normal bikes...

Just kidding. I think volunteering to do that (with permission) would be a great way to show people a positive way e-bikes can be used.

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

aborgman said:


> Any vehicel with two wheels in tandem, human powered or not, is a bicycle.


That's silly, I can barely believe I even did it but I actually googled "bicycle" and the first 3 hits said exactly this-



> noun
> The definition of a bicycle is a two-wheeled vehicle with one wheel in front of the other which is propelled using foot pedals.
> A two-wheeled vehicle that you pedal is an example of a bicycle.
> 
> ...


I thought everyone knew what a bicycle was.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I guess if you just define "bicycle" to be anything featuring 2 wheels, then a lot of things are bicycles.

But that's just being intentionally obtuse. We all agree on the basics of what a bike is. And I think it's easy to draw a line between one with a motor and one without. Now, whether or not there's some limited power pedal-assist only version of a motorized bicycle (which for probably 100 years has been known as a "moped") that would be ok to allow on nonmotorized trails is another question.

The splitting hairs on semantics thing really is pretty pointless, though. The issue is impacts on other users and the impossibility of enforcing power/speed limits in the real world. It's not hard to imagine "bicycles" that go 40mph on singletrack and get all wheeled devices banned, whatever you want to call them. 

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Words used in statutes have their own very specific meanings, meanings that may not be the same as in popular usage. The definition of bicycle is one of those words. In the state of California the definition includes Class 1, 2 and 3 ebikes along with pbikes, you can disagree with this, but that won't change the law.

BTW, it's going on 8 months since pMTBs began sharing singletrack with eMTBs out here in LA and the sky still hasn't fallen yet.......... Could it be that it won't at all?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Words used in statutes have their own very specific meanings, meanings that may not be the same as in popular usage. The definition of bicycle is one of those words. In the state of California the definition includes Class 1, 2 and 3 ebikes along with pbikes, you can disagree with this, but that won't change the law.
> 
> BTW, it's going on 8 months since pMTBs began sharing singletrack with eMTBs out here in LA and the sky still hasn't fallen yet.......... Could it be that it won't at all?


Cite examples of single track that is not expressly forbidden to e-bikes please.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Look, semantics don't matter. If there's no impact on other users, I agree - it's all good. If there is, we aren't going to really see it for a few more years when there are more e-bikes out there. The sky may indeed fall in LA, as local jurisdictions (as Park City did a few years ago) look at the law and notice this loophole. Then they'll just make specific rules about electric motors and that'll be the end of things. Hopefully normal bicycles won't take the fall along with them.

-Walt


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Read between the lines!
> 
> Why does one need any of this re-engineered drivetrain? Afterall, it's just a pedal-bike that offers a rider some assist....just a little assist, right? What's the Big deal?!
> 
> ...


Some good stuff here; I'll quote O M Sack 'cuz he sez the most with the least.

Pretty obvious though; the big name brand bike companies all have e-bikes (e-mtbs) in their line-ups so MTBR has to follow the money.

I like e-bikes but they have no place on trails traditionally featuring muscle locomotion; e-bikers need to go where motors are welcome or create their own riding areas. (Green Sticker fees for e-bikes anyone???)

BTW out here in Kalifornia Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are treated the same way and are allowed up 750 watts; a far cry from the Euro 250 watt "can't hurt anything" pedelec.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Cite examples of single track that is not expressly forbidden to e-bikes please.


 I don't even know what this question means....?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> Cite examples of single track that is not expressly forbidden to e-bikes please.


FWIW, the world renown singletrack in Downieville, CA (some of the best riding in America) are all moto/mtb/ebike/ friendly. Mt bikers do a ton of trailwork there. Moto clubs do too. Which group should ebikers join for trailwork? Or should they have their own trailwork days?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Remember mopeds? Same thing, once the door was open the pedals went away pretty quick.


So the concern is ebike-mopeds will evolve into pedal-less, slow ass e-scooters?


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

If you consider 40-60mph slow, then sure and it's not just the top speed, it's the fact that an electric motor has the same torque all the way through it's power and LOTS of it.



Empty_Beer said:


> So the concern is ebike-mopeds will evolve into pedal-less, slow ass e-scooters?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

LyNx said:


> If you consider 40-60mph slow, then sure and it's not just the top speed, it's the fact that an electric motor has the same torque all the way through it's power and LOTS of it.


Funny thing is, I've never ever seen a scooter poaching singletrack or riding fire roads. Why aren't those lazy bums ripping around on dirt now? I don't think we'll see pedal-less ebike mopeds that go 30+ mph on trails either.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Empty_Beer said:


> Funny thing is, I've never ever seen a scooter poaching singletrack or riding fire roads. Why aren't those lazy bums ripping around on dirt now? I don't think we'll see pedal-less ebike mopeds that go 30+ mph on trails either.


Watch the Martyn Ashton video and get back to me on that.

Bicycle in name only.

(Not bagging on MA; just noting a very prominent example of this technology)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

You've never seen it because electric bikes designed for singletrack weren't ever marketed or available to anyone...until now. Now you can walk into a bike shop and plunk down and go ride. They are specifically marketed as mountain bikes, right? I don't think there's any doubt about that. The poaching will happen in the next few years, and it'll happen a lot (I've already seen some here). That's when the excrement will hit the fan.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> You've never seen it because electric bikes designed for singletrack weren't ever marketed or available to anyone...until now. Now you can walk into a bike shop and plunk down and go ride. They are specifically marketed as mountain bikes, right? I don't think there's any doubt about that. The poaching will happen in the next few years, and it'll happen a lot (I've already seen some here). That's when the excrement will hit the fan.
> 
> -Walt


 You cannot walk into a bike shop, plunk down your money and buy a 60mph electric singletrack ebike. Not today, and probably not ever. You can spend a fortune and have a custom shop build one or you can spend a bit less money and a ton of time and frustration and build your own. Either way, there will never be hordes of 60mph electric bicycles on your trails for the simple reason that there will never be hordes of them in the first place. There WILL be hordes of low-powered, low-speed OEM eMTBs from all the usual suspects that will fit right into the current mix of trail users that we have today as they do currently in CA.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Dude, they're run by computer with electric engines that just need more power, so hack the computer and strap on another battery and voila, there ya go, the more juice you give them, the faster they can go. My brother who doesn't ride or is into MTB could prob hack one and be off and running in no time.



WoodlandHills said:


> You cannot walk into a bike shop, plunk down your money and buy a 60mph electric singletrack ebike. Not today, and probably not ever. You can spend a fortune and have a custom shop build one or you can spend a bit less money and a ton of time and frustration and build your own. Either way, there will never be hordes of 60mph electric bicycles on your trails for the simple reason that there will never be hordes of them in the first place. There WILL be hordes of low-powered, low-speed OEM eMTBs from all the usual suspects that will fit right into the current mix of trail users that we have today as they do currently in CA.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

WoodlandHills said:


> You cannot walk into a bike shop, plunk down your money and buy a 60mph electric singletrack ebike. Not today, and probably not ever.


Right. Just like as soon as an OEM product is released to the MTB market now aftermarket companies aren't chomping at the bit to sell you stuff to hack it so you can go further and faster.

I was given a commuter e-bike to review years ago from an e-bike dealer. He mentioned that legally it was restricted to 30kph. In the same breathe he showed me how to over-ride the speed restriction and offered me a 2nd battery pack to allow me to go faster than 30kph and ride longer.

I don't know what the max speed will be of the electric motorcycles LBS will sell once they've been hacked at home, but sure as $hit they aren't going to be going as slow as they were when they left the shop.

Ih the history of the bicycles and motorcycles the first question any new bike or moto owner has had is how do I make this go faster?

For electric motorcycles the answer will be simple - hack the restrictor tech and buy extra and/or more powerful batteries.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

I can't think of any twisty singletrack where I'd be comfortable or able to operate a motorized 2 wheel vehicle much faster than I can already ride my mountain bike. 

If the concern is hopped up ebikes will be going uphill "too fast", what are your collective thoughts about the speed regular bikes attain on descents?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

DIY kits have been available for several years to build fast eMTB's, but I've never seen one on the trails. The OEM companies are producing eMTB's that almost exclusively fall into the 20 mph pedal assist category (AFAIK 50 of 52 Haibike models are this type). Also, most individuals won't modify their bikes and void the warranty. All this is speculation that is unfounded.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Also, most individuals won't modify their bikes and void the warranty. All this is speculation that is unfounded.


And your speculation is laughable.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Empty_Beer said:


> I can't think of any twisty singletrack where I'd be comfortable or able to operate a motorized 2 wheel vehicle much faster than I can already ride my mountain bike.
> 
> If the concern is hopped up ebikes will be going uphill "too fast", what are your collective thoughts about the speed regular bikes attain on descents?


The speed differential is more of a concern tbh.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

fos'l said:


> DIY kits have been available for several years to build fast eMTB's, but I've never seen one on the trails.


Plus tires were around for 3yrs and were rare on the trails and now year #4 and they are the hot thing.

Electric motorcycles are just starting to get into the mass market were they'll be seen and bought by more people.

The current limitation for people is where do you ride one? They are illegal on all of our local MTB/hiking trails.

That's the conflict that's being setup by the companies selling them to people with few places to ride them. The new owners either stick to the few legal OHV trails they can be on or they start poaching non-motorized trails because there are lots more of those close to where they live.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> If the concern is hopped up ebikes will be going uphill "too fast", what are your collective thoughts about the speed regular bikes attain on descents?


My thoughts-

Some riders (myself included) do ride a little too fast at times for certain situations. Last week I was cranking up a hill at maybe 12mph or so and came up on some riders on horses a little too quickly on a blind corner. Grandpa was in the lead and both he and I reacted quickly, which was fortunate because I would have felt terrible if I spooked any of the horses and caused injury to one or both of his grand daughters.

I don't mean to brag but most mtb'ers would have been going about 6mph in that situation, which is a huge difference. An elite rider might have been traveling along @ 14-15mph. I'm not excusing any sort of bad trail etiquette but if you give every rider the capability of obtaining at pro level speeds (while likely increasing trail density) hazardous or otherwise rude encounters on the trail will rise. Simple math.

750 watts or whatever the number is an arbitrary figure agreed upon to close a deal. Carbon based human power is forever self governing, and simple to regulate.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

vikb said:


> Right. Just like as soon as an OEM product is released to the MTB market now aftermarket companies aren't chomping at the bit to sell you stuff to hack it so you can go further and faster.
> 
> I was given a commuter e-bike to review years ago from an e-bike dealer. He mentioned that legally it was restricted to 30kph. In the same breathe he showed me how to over-ride the speed restriction and offered me a 2nd battery pack to allow me to go faster than 30kph and ride longer.
> 
> ...


 Beyond the ability to change max speed from 20 to 30, which is only available to allow sale in the various jurisdictions, what can you hack on an OEM eMTB? There's no programming port like there is on a Bafang kit and no way to access the power levels. There are over 1/4 million 250/350w eMTBs in Europe, a place with the best hackers on the planet and I haven't seen any stories about them being jail-broke enmass. I haven't even seen anything on ES about it and if it was going to happen it would be bragged about there. One can always make up a scenario where anything can happen, but it's better if you actually have some facts in hand first. I mean, I COULD build an ebike that will use a flux capacitor to take me Back to the Future, but is that a reasonable scenario in the real world?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> And your speculation is laughable.


 Again, have you ever looked at one of these OEM ebikes and tried to "hack" one? Do you have any actual knowledge of this or are we just playing pretend here? Because if we are just imagining scenarios, I have a few good ones too........


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Ever notice that when the anti-MTB crowd can't argue a point, they call you a name or the asses say your point has no validity. Remember we're dealing with know-nothings that have never even ridden an ebike much less worked on one or modified one. Since they don't have one they have no idea how valuable the warranty is and can't fathom (anything actually) why one wouldn't want to invalidate it.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

vikb said:


> Plus tires were around for 3yrs and were rare on the trails and now year #4 and they are the hot thing.
> 
> Electric motorcycles are just starting to get into the mass market were they'll be seen and bought by more people.
> 
> ...


 Gosh, that sounds exactly like the history of pMTBs: they started to show up in the LBS and pretty soon the proto-MTBers were poaching hiking trails. After a few years and a lotta fuss pMTBs were allowed access and then they began to pitch-in on legal trail building and repair. Fast forward a couple of decades, they now have a seat at the table and are using it to block access by another not so dissimilar group in blind fear of "what ifs".

"We have met the enemy, and they are us!"


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Not being sold on e-bikes being given blanket access to MTB trails is equivalent with not understanding how a warranty or a basic electric motor works?

Okay...if you say so.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fos'l said:


> Ever notice that when the anti-MTB crowd can't argue a point, they call you a name or the asses say your point has no validity. Remember we're dealing with know-nothings that have never even ridden an ebike much less worked on one or modified one. Since they don't have one they have no idea how valuable the warranty is and can't fathom (anything actually) why one wouldn't want to invalidate it.


 Actually, I dont have any warranty at all....... However my two BBSHDs are the most popular mid-drive kit motors out there today and while there two levels of programming at the display and an extensive and amazingly deep/complex level of programming available via a PC and programming cable, it has proven IMPOSSIBLE to raise the power above 30a. The motor will take up to 40a when chopped apart and run with an external controller, but the best hackers in the ebike business have been unable to crack the 30a limit.

In other words, it just ain't that easy to hack one of these things, and that's a cheapo Chinese motor with the most basic of software. If Russian hackers are unable to hack the code, does anyone really think that their 13 year-old nephew who can download movies on BitTorrent is gonna be able to do it. Really?


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

There's a line that has been crossed. Many argue "what about advances in suspension? Geometry or drivetrain making it easier to climb and descend?" etc. All advances considered, we're still the powerplant and our output is directly related to performance.

Now. An eBike using ALL of those advances that have been mtb exclusive. Add a motor. What's the next step in advancement? I think we all know the obvious answer. 

It's nothing that I want to see on my local network of trails that we as mtb'rs have worked so hard to gain side by side with equestrians and hiker/runners.

My first experience seeing an ebike on our network, even though it was illegal, was a fat tire rented from an agency a few miles away at the beach. The dude blew by me in the lot, through the trailhead gate, and smoked it up the trail passing numerous hikers, soccer moms, etc with nary a care, all while sporting a t-shirt, loose shorts, and flip-flops on his feet. His pedal cadence was maybe an easy 40 rpms or so I'd guess. Hardly any physical output, yet making 10-15 mph on an upslope and just not giving a **** about anyone else.

Yes, we need more people like that accessing our trails. It's really gonna help our cause.

Go ahead and build 'em. Just keep them in the OHV population and no where near our multi-use trails.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

Oh My Sack! said:


> There's a line that has been crossed. Many argue "what about advances in suspension? Geometry or drivetrain making it easier to climb and descend?" etc. All advances considered, we're still the powerplant and our output is directly related to performance.
> 
> Now. An eBike using ALL of those advances that have been mtb exclusive. Add a motor. What's the next step in advancement? I think we all know the obvious answer.
> 
> ...


I've seen people on regular bikes be asshats too, it's not just limited to E Bike riders.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Ever notice that when the anti-MTB crowd can't argue a point, they call you a name or the asses say your point has no validity.


Honestly, look in the mirror dude. That or start to contribute something of value to these threads instead of repeatedly spewing your one sided hate speeches.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Empty_Beer said:


> I can't think of any twisty singletrack where I'd be comfortable or able to operate a motorized 2 wheel vehicle much faster than I can already ride my mountain bike.
> 
> If the concern is hopped up ebikes will be going uphill "too fast", what are your collective thoughts about the speed regular bikes attain on descents?


It's a closing speed question. Right now if we say the fastest uphill riders are going roughly 6-10mph and downhill going 12-20mph, closing speed is at most 30. That's enough to get hurt pretty bad, and enough to have a very hard time avoiding a collision if you don't have good sight lines.

So descending speeds for mountain bikes are already often a big, big problem. It's why bikes aren't allowed on lots of trails, as basically anyone who has ever hiked knows.

Hikers and trail runners aren't going very fast, so then generally the bad encounters are when the mountain bikes are headed downhill. Uphill it's pretty rare to have a conflict. Hence some trails allow bikes, but only uphill.

Increase the uphill speed by 5-10mph depending on the grade (I'll assume you're no faster on the downhills) and it's worse in all situations. For 2-direction bike traffic you've cut down on the time available to react, as well as increasing the closing speed significantly. You've also turned the climbing e-bikes into a potential hazard for hikers, runners, equestrians because they can go much, much faster.

I might be ok with an assist that kicked off at 10mph. That would make climbing easier, but not *faster*. 20mph is insanity.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Oh My Sack! said:


> There's a line that has been crossed. Many argue "what about advances in suspension? Geometry or drivetrain making it easier to climb and descend?" etc. All advances considered, we're still the powerplant and our output is directly related to performance.
> 
> Now. An eBike using ALL of those advances that have been mtb exclusive. Add a motor. What's the next step in advancement? I think we all know the obvious answer.
> 
> ...


 So if you dont like the behavior or manners of an individual rider you just ban the type of bike they ride? Does that apply to DH bikes too, cause I've seen some outrageous behavior there too. Ditto with plain-Jane pMTBs, sometimes their riders act like asshats, we probably ought to ban those bikes as well, just in case.

What's your real beef, anyway? The slow cadence, no sweat ride while wearing "the wrong clothes" or the bad manners? Bad manners are easy to deal with on an individual basis through enforcement or education, but for hurt fee-fees you are just gonna have to suck it up........


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> DIY kits have been available for several years to build fast eMTB's, but I've never seen one on the trails. The OEM companies are producing eMTB's that almost exclusively fall into the 20 mph pedal assist category (AFAIK 50 of 52 Haibike models are this type). Also, most individuals won't modify their bikes and void the warranty. All this is speculation that is unfounded.


Got passed by an e-"bike" going 30mph+ last night when I was going 28mph on my road bike last night.

Hacked or not, the dude was sitting bolt upright on a knobby tired mountain bike with an electric motor, going 30mph, having just exited a trail complex parking lot.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> So if you dont like the behavior or manners of an individual rider you just ban the type of bike they ride?


Petrol motorcycles are not allowed on many trails and it has nothing to do with their individual behavior. Using your logic there's no reason to "ban" them either.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

We ban all kinds of technology that could have disastrous consequences. There are plenty of levelheaded people who could safely own a recreational howitzer, or drive a Formula 1 car to work every day. However, the potential damage that could be done by the not-so-levelheaded with such an item is unacceptable, so we don't allow people to own or operate them in public.

Of course normal mountain bikes can be ridden irresponsibly. Nobody said otherwise. Motorized bikes (whether electric or gas) can be ridden MUCH more irresponsibly, hence the higher bar for allowing them access to trails. 

-Walt


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

WOW this thread has blown up...
...u guys have been busy!

Still no one has addressed the issue of the future! When mt bikes came on the scene trails were changed forever, but mt bikers stepped up and formed groups and helped build and maintain trails everywhere.

What's to say this won't happen with e-biike users? Couldn't many e-bike users all ready be mt bikers who just want to have another toy in their toy box?

I'm a member of a moto club and we build and maintain 2 moto tracks and 13 miles of single track that is ridden every day! We also build and run races for almost 30 years at the same farm. I'm sure if we weren't on the up and up we wouldn't have that much history with the farmer. Yes we have even run a Zero E-cycle in the 80s vintage class piloted by a Harescramble National Champ and he didn't do half bad finishing mid pack against motos up to 500ccs!

Motos are much more aggressive and a different process of maintenance is used, but the same could work for mt bike trails and mt bikers and e-bikers would benefit. An e-bike is just a mt bike with a small under powered motor! As of yet no one has proved these e-bikes damage trails!

I think someone had better divide this into two categories: Wilderness trails where mt bikes don't have access anyways, and regular state and forest trails. From my own personal tests on my private trails, my fat bike with 26x4.00 tires does more to turn soil than my e-bike with 29x2.1 tires, so I see the complaining as just that "COMPLAINING"


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> The poaching will happen in the next few years, and it'll happen a lot (I've already seen some here).


The poaching is already happening in huge amounts... it's just regular old mtb's riding "secret" or illegal trails, not e-mtbs.

The entire population of e-mtbs in the USA is quite likely less than the number of regular mtbs that poached a trail yesterday.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

LyNx said:


> Dude, they're run by computer with electric engines that just need more power, so hack the computer and strap on another battery and voila, there ya go, the more juice you give them, the faster they can go. My brother who doesn't ride or is into MTB could prob hack one and be off and running in no time.


While there are absolutely SOME things that will be easily modified - if you think you're going to get huge speed gains, you're delusional.

As someone who has done a bit of research in this area with respect to electric cars (I'm an Electrical Engineer at a major research university) - it really isn't that easy.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Of course normal mountain bikes can be ridden irresponsibly. Nobody said otherwise. Motorized bikes (whether electric or gas) can be ridden MUCH more irresponsibly, hence the higher bar for allowing them access to trails.


I'd say that is an assertion not in evidence.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Sorry to say, but in general, it's normally the tinkerers who manage to come up with advancements/tweaks like that while the engineers sit there crunching their numbers and doing their theory and come up with it "can't be done", just like the hummingbird "can't" fly because it's wings are too small.


aborgman said:


> While there are absolutely SOME things that will be easily modified - if you think you're going to get huge speed gains, you're delusional.
> 
> As someone who has done a bit of research in this area with respect to electric cars (I'm an Electrical Engineer at a major research university) - it really isn't that easy.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ah, an appeal to authority? It's pretty simple, even for an engineer - you're adding a human beings (or 2, or 3) worth of power, and only another 10kg (or less) to the vehicle. I already did the math for you in another thread, but I bet you're up to it!

Or just go on youtube and watch some e-bike videos. You can find plenty of DIY bikes that go 25-30mph uphill, and run for an hour or longer. 

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

LyNx said:


> Sorry to say, but in general, it's normally the tinkerers who manage to come up with advancements/tweaks like that while the engineers sit there crunching their numbers and doing their theory and come up with it "can't be done", just like the hummingbird "can't" fly because it's wings are too small.


That is the kind of silliness folks who don't deal with engineering much say.

...just like the silly urban legend that "Scientists once proved that bumblebees can't fly"

Of course - in addition to being an engineer - I AM a tinkerer.

I build bikes, rebuild car engines, do all my own home construction work, do all my own auto repair, build/repair musical instruments, build tube amplifiers...

Never mind that my job largely consists of repairing strange esoteric hardware, and designing one-off electrical systems to enable Aerospace Engineering research projects by graduate students and faculty.

I regularly spec out electric motors and design, build, and test motion control systems - for motors ranging form 1 watt DC up to 440VAC multi horsepower units.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Ah, an appeal to authority? It's pretty simple, even for an engineer - you're adding a human beings (or 2, or 3) worth of power, and only another 10kg (or less) to the vehicle. I already did the math for you in another thread, but I bet you're up to it!
> 
> Or just go on youtube and watch some e-bike videos. You can find plenty of DIY bikes that go 25-30mph uphill, and run for an hour or longer.
> 
> -Walt


Yes... that were designed that way from the start. You seem to be arguing a point no one has made.

We're talking about the ability to MODIFY (without major hardware changes) OEM equipment.

Can you build an e-bike that goes really fast? Absolutely. The Lawless Electric Rocket will do a quarter mile in under 7 seconds at over 200mph.

Are you going to take a standard, manufacturer produced, e-bike and drastically improve the performance without serious modification? Nope. Won't happen.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, then, figure out what grade of climb you can hit the 20mph assist cutoff on with a 750W OE setup, eh?

The power and speed numbers are nuts. Trail conflict disasters waiting to happen. It still baffles me why they aren't building with 10mph cutoffs.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

aborgman said:


> While there are absolutely SOME things that will be easily modified - if you think you're going to get huge speed gains, you're delusional.
> 
> As someone who has done a bit of research in this area with respect to electric cars (I'm an Electrical Engineer at a major research university) - it really isn't that easy.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Ok, then, figure out what grade of climb you can hit the 20mph assist cutoff on with a 750W OE setup, eh?


It's super highly dependent on frontal area, and the surface you're riding on.

Assuming a dirt surface, and using my weight on my bike -

250W (human, or electric) - max grade to hit 20mph, ~ 1%

750W (using weight of lightest Specialized e-bike) - max grade to hit 20mph, ~6.5%

The human powered, 13kg lighter bike will be doing about 8.8mph on the 6.5% grade instead of 20mph.


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

tiretracks said:


>


Right... not at all a modified OEM bike, much less easily.

Heck, why not just post this - it's just as applicable to the discussion:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

aborgman said:


> Right... not at all a modified OEM bike, much less easily.
> 
> Heck, why not just post this - it's just as applicable to the discussion:


That is the direction that ebikes are headed and to argue otherwise is disingenuous at best. Cloaking them in lies and deceit is what results in the opposition towards them that is exhibited by the majority of more than casual cyclists.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

As a former moto person, I know exactly what a lot of moto people are going to think as soon as you allow electric motors on trails... which is that it's game on. 

Look, people will be riding "OE" bikes that are not even vaguely the same as bicycles on trails, if you decide to start allowing stuff with a motor. Plus the DIY crowd. That's a given, I think. The question is how many of them will start doing it and how bad it'll be for access for everyone else.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> That is the direction that ebikes are headed and to argue otherwise is disingenuous at best. Cloaking them in lies and deceit is what results in the opposition towards them that is exhibited by the majority of more than casual cyclists.


 This is the direction that e-motorcycles are taking, not ebikes. Does anyone think that looked like a bicycle and would any hiker or ranger be confused between the two? If you think so, you have a very, very low opinion of your local Rangers.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

An e-bike is an e-motorcycle.

And if trails are restricted to non-motorised uses you can ride one on them no matter what you call your motorcycle. :nono:


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> As a former moto person, I know exactly what a lot of moto people are going to think as soon as you allow electric motors on trails... which is that it's game on.
> 
> Look, people will be riding "OE" bikes that are not even vaguely the same as bicycles on trails, if you decide to start allowing stuff with a motor. Plus the DIY crowd. That's a given, I think. The question is how many of them will start doing it and how bad it'll be for access for everyone else.
> 
> -Walt


 So the gist of your arguement is that the mere presence of Class 1 ebikes on formerly MTB only trails will trigger a flood of Yamahas, KTMs and Suzukis onto them? The tides of snarling two-stroke racers are only held back by a blanket ban on ebikes. Is that correct?

Where do you live that people have so little respect for laws and where so many of the criminal element are motorcyclists. It sounds like a scary place on the edge of anarchy!

Im glad I live somewhere safe like Los Angeles where it's been over a year since ebikes have been sharing trails and still no dirt bikes! I guess our dirtbikers are more law abiding than yours.........


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> Where do you live that people have so little respect for laws and where so many of the criminal element are motorcyclists. It sounds like a scary place on the edge of anarchy!


Mostly happens in places where Motorcyclists have pissed away their own access which is almost everywhere in the country by the way.


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## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

Walt said:


> We ban all kinds of technology that could have disastrous consequences. There are plenty of levelheaded people who could safely own a recreational howitzer, or drive a Formula 1 car to work every day. However, the potential damage that could be done by the not-so-levelheaded with such an item is unacceptable, so we don't allow people to own or operate them in public.
> 
> Of course normal mountain bikes can be ridden irresponsibly. Nobody said otherwise. Motorized bikes (whether electric or gas) can be ridden MUCH more irresponsibly, hence the higher bar for allowing them access to trails.
> 
> -Walt


No one is level headed enough to own a recreational howitzer.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

I disagree. I could easily be a responsible owner of said Howitzer. It's just a big bolt action rifle.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The anti-e crowd keep speculating about things occurring even though there is proof that's it's not happening; for instance, we've allowed eMTB's in the Santa Monica Mountains for at least six months, but there's no reports of any increase in ICE activity. We've allowed physically challenged individuals to use ebikes on trails, most notably the Irvine Company's 60,000 acres of wildlands in socal, but this hasn't precipitated any problems (one earlier argument was we'd be carting them out when their vehicles failed). The only viable reason that I can see for not having eMTB's on trails is that it would give anti-MTB groups ammunition to ban MTB's, but that hasn't happened. They say that everyone is going to modify their eMTB (forget the warranty), but we've had the technology to create fast eMTB's for a long time and I haven't seen one tearing up the trails or scaring people. However, the anti crowd will attack these proven facts by saying it's ridiculous, calling me a name, saying that real data doesn't matter, calling a Class 1 eMTB a motorcycle when CA law defines it differently or finding another baseless argument. WHY I SAY DON'T BOTHER TRYING TO REASON WITH THEM; JUST KEEP RIDING WHERE IT'S ALLOWED AND WATCH NEW AREAS OPEN UP!!!!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Welnic said:


> No one is level headed enough to own a recreational howitzer.


Very few, but some.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I disagree. I could easily be a responsible owner of said Howitzer. It's just a big bolt action rifle.


Sorry, you're right. I was thinking of a mortar.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I use my rec-how for home defense. You can never be too careful, and I need the stopping power.

-W


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Welnic said:


> No one is level headed enough to own a recreational howitzer.


Actually - like machine guns, grenades, sawed off shotguns, etc...

You CAN own them, and they are NOT banned.

It's just difficult and requires lots of paperwork, registrations, and money under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

I actually know someone who went through the process to acquire a fully automatic weapon. It took 5-6 years and cost about $15,000 to acquire a fully automatic Thompson.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Maybe we should just require civilian destructive device registration for e-bikes... 

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Maybe we should just require civilian destructive device registration for e-bikes...


Eh - just equip every bike (mtb or e-mtb) with RFID, track speeds, and boot anyone who rides at unsafe speeds.

Of course - 99/100 that got booted would be on conventional bikes.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

aborgman said:


> The poaching is already happening in huge amounts... it's just regular old mtb's riding "secret" or illegal trails, not e-mtbs.
> 
> The entire population of e-mtbs in the USA is quite likely less than the number of regular mtbs that poached a trail yesterday.


This has sorta been my point in a lot of my comments on these humorous ebike threads. People want to categorically prohibit ebikes on non-motorized trails, yet provide no realistic solution to stop eMTB poachers that wouldn't throw the baby (all bicycles) out with the bath water (ebikes). There have been threads on MTBR about "I saw an ebike on a trail today". I haven't seen a thread where someone says "I saw a mt. biker poaching today".

Here's a short trail near me that bicycles are not allowed on. Given that far less than 50% of mt. bikers likely use Strava, you can easily multiply these numbers by at least 2 or 3:

https://www.strava.com/segments/828815: 8,351 Attempts By 1,060 People

This segment of trail is not secret... but is signed "no bikes". That sign works well!  I'll make the assumption that "no ebike" signs will work just as well as ebikes become more popular.

So careful what ya'll wish for.

But if the folks who are dead set on prohibiting ebikes on non-motorized trails won't get their chamois in a bunch (complain to land manager, whine on MTBR, etc.) when they see eMTB poaching, I'm actually fine with that. That's kind of how it works where I live for normal mt. biking already.

I'm not an ebike proponent. I'm a "ban things based on semantics, emotions and lack of science" opponent.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

aborgman said:


> Eh - just equip every bike (mtb or e-mtb) with RFID, track speeds, and boot anyone who rides at unsafe speeds.
> 
> Of course - 99/100 that got booted would be on conventional bikes.


That has already happened (literally) thanks to Strava.

-Walt


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> That has already happened (literally) thanks to Strava.


Really?

Individuals have been booted from trails by trail management for riding at unsafe speeds based on Strava data?

Not all bikes banned because of Strava data - but the actual, at fault, individuals?

Really?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

aborgman said:


> Really?
> 
> Individuals have been booted from trails by trail management for riding at unsafe speeds based on Strava data?
> 
> ...


All bikes banned. I'm sure you could ban individuals if you wanted but that's not what they did:
http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park

-Walt


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Walt said:


> All bikes banned. I'm sure you could ban individuals if you wanted but that's not what they did:
> Strava Speeds Help Mountain Bikers Get Banned From California Park | Teton Gravity Research
> 
> -Walt


I don't know how you would enforce an individual ban. With helmets and glasses on it's not easy to spot an individual and you'd have to memorise what they looked like and have people actually keeping an eye out for them. Doesn't seem practical.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> This has sorta been my point in a lot of my comments on these humorous ebike threads. People want to categorically prohibit ebikes on non-motorized trails......


Speaking for myself I wouldn't want to categorically prohibit electric bikes from all non-motorized trails but I'm adamant about not categorically allowing them on every non-motorized trail, and from what I see that sentiment echoes the views of many "anti-ebike" posters here.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, exactly. The e-bike folks seem to want their machines categorized and treated as normal bikes across the board. That's clearly a terrible idea. There are trails where a 750W/20mph cutoff assist bike would be fine. There are others where it would be a disaster. It would be easy to do a few years of trial period limited to directional bike-only and motorized trails and see how things go, but that doesn't seem to be acceptable.

-Walt


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Walt said:


> There are others where it would be a disaster.
> 
> -Walt


Again, I really wish the dawn of the eMTB didn't arrive for another 20+ years, but I am trying to figure out what trails in my immediate region (Folsom Lake State Rec Area and Auburn State Rec Area in California) would be a "disaster" if Class 1 or 2 ebikes were permitted on all of them. Maybe the south/east side of Lake Natoma since it is quite popular with runners, walkers and mt. bikers... and it is 5' wide, very flat and has long straight-aways. A pedal-assist bike could get to 20mph pretty quickly and sustain it over several stretches. 20mph sustained for any time with a normal bike would be quite difficult for anyone but the fastest/fittest mtb riders (but still happens). Maybe that's one ebikes should not be on... they can stay on the parallel paved American River Trail (which also prohibits ebikes  )

All the other trails I can think of in these State Parks (and I'm pretty intimately familiar with all of them) have enough twists and turns that any fear of ebikes can absolutely be applied to mountain bikes already.

What specific trails in your area would be a disaster if ebikes were permitted or were regularly poaching them?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> What specific trails in your area would be a disaster if ebikes were permitted or were regularly poaching them?


America has a love affair with motors (nothingwrongwiththat) and since no one knows what the eventual popularity of electric bikes may be no one can predict what problems may or may not arise due to them.

I'd like to hear one logical reason (from anyone) why electric bikes shouldn't be classified differently than bicycles and granted (or denied) access the same way as any other user group.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sounds like some areas are so crowded that any influx of another "species" is critical. Hard for me to relate. IMO, common sense solves the problem here. Just ride where it's legal and not crowded. I go to crowded areas only to show guests from other places around, then it's on foot or MTB.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Empty_Beer said:


> Again, I really wish the dawn of the eMTB didn't arrive for another 20+ years, but I am trying to figure out what trails in my immediate region (Folsom Lake State Rec Area and Auburn State Rec Area in California) would be a "disaster" if Class 1 or 2 ebikes were permitted on all of them. Maybe the south/east side of Lake Natoma since it is quite popular with runners, walkers and mt. bikers... and it is 5' wide, very flat and has long straight-aways. A pedal-assist bike could get to 20mph pretty quickly and sustain it over several stretches. 20mph sustained for any time with a normal bike would be quite difficult for anyone but the fastest/fittest mtb riders (but still happens). Maybe that's one ebikes should not be on... they can stay on the parallel paved American River Trail (which also prohibits ebikes  )
> 
> All the other trails I can think of in these State Parks (and I'm pretty intimately familiar with all of them) have enough twists and turns that any fear of ebikes can absolutely be applied to mountain bikes already.
> 
> What specific trails in your area would be a disaster if ebikes were permitted or were regularly poaching them?


A lot that tend to have traffic in both directions, and are moderately twisty with poor sight lines. As I've explained, closing speeds increasing by 10+ mph is potentially fatal, but certainly no bueno. When climbing speeds increase a lot, we end up with descending-like problems (high speed, don't stop in time) on ALL of the trail instead of just a few sections.

Flying Dog here in Park City would be a great example. It's popular both ways, possible to ride very fast on, and once the aspen and gambel oak leaf out, quite easy to come around a corner and have a bad encounter. If you could go 15+ mph uphill on it, it would be much worse.

There are a ton of trails like that everywhere I've ever lived, really.

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Walt said:


> A lot that tend to have traffic in both directions, and are moderately twisty with poor sight lines. As I've explained, closing speeds increasing by 10+ mph is potentially fatal, but certainly no bueno. When climbing speeds increase a lot, we end up with descending-like problems (high speed, don't stop in time) on ALL of the trail instead of just a few sections.
> 
> Flying Dog here in Park City would be a great example. It's popular both ways, possible to ride very fast on, and once the aspen and gambel oak leaf out, quite easy to come around a corner and have a bad encounter. If you could go 15+ mph uphill on it, it would be much worse.
> 
> ...


This is the crux of my objections to most bike related issues. Closing speeds can be bad even without motors. Users that are racing each other without regard to trail conditions can and have caused accidents. However changing the paradigm to one way for all bicycle traffic can be difficult. In AZ we built a trail on Tucson that initially started as just a trail, then we realized that it had the potential to be very dangerous to someone going the wrong direction and we set out to mark the trail with one way signs wherever it was possible to get someone looping in and going the wrong way. Every so often I would run into someone who, for whatever reason, didn't realize that it was one way. It was terrifying in the most extreme way because I wasn't expecting to see someone coming towards me on a section so I was going at a speed I felt was safe for conditions but was too fast to react to the opposite going trail user and in AZ you want to stay on the trails.

I would accept that e-bikes will be joining mountain bikes on the trails in the near future but I think the only way to do so in a non-conflicting way is to introduce one-way systems wherever the 2 differing modes of trail users will be meeting and sharing trails with each others and other modes. Single direction trails can be awesome, you can build the trail to work with traffic direction or you can leave it ambiguous and reverse the direction every couple of years. Other users could have bi-directionality but mountain bikes could be restrained. It would be like a ski hill with alpine skiers locked into descending but backcountry skiers going about wherever they want to go.

I would not go ride my mountain bike on trails that weren't directional with e-bikes on the trails, as the risks would far outweigh the benefits for me of coming across someone going at the gold standard 20mph in a corner up a hill while I am descending with my kids or just plain descending and not expecting someone to be approaching me at the same speed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Sounds like some areas are so crowded that any influx of another "species" is critical. Hard for me to relate.


Locusts are a species, just saying.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, improved trail design and/or directional trails would help. But our legacy trails are mostly not built to a standard that can handle 2-way 20mph traffic, or anything close to it. I don't think you can easily build what most of us consider "singletrack" that can handle 40mph closing speeds safely in most cases, either. 

Now, I'd love to see that situation improve, but in the meantime, adding a ton of speed to the existing trails seems like a terrible idea. 

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Put another way: climbing on a mountain bike is slow and painful. For the purposes of sharing trails with other users, including other mountain bikers, that's a *good* thing. 

-Walt


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> America has a love affair with motors (nothingwrongwiththat) and since no one knows what the eventual popularity of electric bikes may be no one can predict what problems may or may not arise due to them.
> 
> I'd like to hear one logical reason (from anyone) why electric bikes shouldn't be classified differently than bicycles and granted (or denied) access the same way as any other user group.


This guy keeps taking the words right out of my mouth.

Americans, by the horde, want it cheap, easy, fast, and lots of it.

Once eMotos hit Wally World anything goes.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Beyond the ability to change max speed from 20 to 30, which is only available to allow sale in the various jurisdictions, what can you hack on an OEM eMTB? There's no programming port like there is on a Bafang kit and no way to access the power levels. There are over 1/4 million 250/350w eMTBs in Europe, a place with the best hackers on the planet and I haven't seen any stories about them being jail-broke enmass. I haven't even seen anything on ES about it and if it was going to happen it would be bragged about there. One can always make up a scenario where anything can happen, but it's better if you actually have some facts in hand first. I mean, I COULD build an ebike that will use a flux capacitor to take me Back to the Future, but is that a reasonable scenario in the real world?


You've been on the wrong forums then my friend. 

Help...Deciding on which dongle to buy.. | Electric Bike Community

There's plenty of dongles out there to derestrict OEM bikes, it doesn't change the power, but it doubles the cut off speed. So, your 20 mph cut off is now 40, which means you can be on the gas whenver you'd like. Not super practical, since you'd burn through your battery that much faster, but available all the same. Pull it back off and your "warranty" is intact. Take your pick, they even work with a Levo.

https://www.ebiketuningshop.com/e-bike-tuning/sx2-dongle.html
BlackPed: E Bike Tuning mit dem Smartphone
E Bike Tuning

It's popular enough that it's a problem.

Speed Tuning Kits Threaten E-Bike Market Development
E Bike Tuning


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Empty_Beer said:


> Funny thing is, I've never ever seen a scooter poaching singletrack or riding fire roads. Why aren't those lazy bums ripping around on dirt now? I don't think we'll see pedal-less ebike mopeds that go 30+ mph on trails either.


This video is an ad from the leading seller of ebike kits in North America, you tell me what sort of experience he's selling and how he views the future. I remember riding mopeds in the 70's, it was a lot like this except on pavement. It was fun as hell, but we never thought it was bike riding.






Ebikes haven't had an impact positive or negative yet since they effectively don't exist in significant numbers to matter. Give it a year or two or three. Once the OEM suppliers gear up to the new regs and they all start shipping with 750W motors with "turbo boost" buttons (not throttles - wink wink) to allow starting on a hill or as walk assist, you'll see people everywhere on them.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

In the airplane world, there is a airplane called the Carbon Cub which meets the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) reg's, by placarding the panel that the 180 horse available cannot be fully used in level flight. If so, the max LSA level flight speed may be exceeded. The FAA bought into this go around, letting the CC sell as a LSA though some think it exceeds the regs. It has created no problems of any kind, just like my 1500 watt capable fat bike, it's as simple as acting like an adult, when I mix with conventional riders. I don't pass them or do anything different, I don't spin my tire, I keep it throttled back. My cut off speed is in my mind, (?) common sense tells me not to pass other riders at a higher speed on a narrow single track. I'm STILL waiting for the actual examples, not theoretical, of all the hell the ebikes are raising, so far it's all in YOUR minds.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> In the airplane world, there is a airplane called the Carbon Cub which meets the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) reg's, by placarding the panel that the 180 horse available cannot be fully used in level flight. If so, the max LSA level flight speed may be exceeded. The FAA bought into this go around, letting the CC sell as a LSA though some think it exceeds the regs. It has created no problems of any kind, just like my 1500 watt capable fat bike, it's as simple as acting like an adult, when I mix with conventional riders. I don't pass them or do anything different, I don't spin my tire, I keep it throttled back. My cut off speed is in my mind, (?) common sense tells me not to pass other riders at a higher speed on a narrow single track. I'm STILL waiting for the actual examples, not theoretical, of all the hell the ebikes are raising, so far it's all in YOUR minds.


Your sample of one adult does not account for the rest of the ebike riding population and makes the assumption that they will be equally as responsible as you claim to be.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Sick, no need for a trail....

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

portnuefpeddler said:


> In the airplane world, there is a airplane called the Carbon Cub which meets the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) reg's, by placarding the panel that the 180 horse available cannot be fully used in level flight. If so, the max LSA level flight speed may be exceeded. The FAA bought into this go around, letting the CC sell as a LSA though some think it exceeds the regs. It has created no problems of any kind, just like my 1500 watt capable fat bike, it's as simple as acting like an adult, when I mix with conventional riders. I don't pass them or do anything different, I don't spin my tire, I keep it throttled back. My cut off speed is in my mind, (?) common sense tells me not to pass other riders at a higher speed on a narrow single track. I'm STILL waiting for the actual examples, not theoretical, of all the hell the ebikes are raising, so far it's all in YOUR minds.


You are really arguing, then, that basically any amount of power/speed is fine as long as everyone involved with riding said vehicle is an angel.

I agree. So as soon as we have a population of perfect, responsible humans, I'm all for it.

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Walt said:


> If you could go 15+ mph uphill on it, it would be much worse.
> 
> There are a ton of trails like that everywhere I've ever lived, really.
> 
> -Walt


One good thing about New England - anybody without a bunch of skill tries to run around doing 15 mph on singletrack, there's gonna be carnage.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Yeah, because every body and their mother can just go out and grab a plane, hop in and fly, right  The BS you e-motobike people will use to try and push your agenda is absolutely beyond belief 



portnuefpeddler said:


> In the airplane world, there is a airplane called the Carbon Cub which meets the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) reg's, by placarding the panel that the 180 horse available cannot be fully used in level flight. If so, the max LSA level flight speed may be exceeded. The FAA bought into this go around, letting the CC sell as a LSA though some think it exceeds the regs. It has created no problems of any kind, just like my 1500 watt capable fat bike, it's as simple as acting like an adult, when I mix with conventional riders. I don't pass them or do anything different, I don't spin my tire, I keep it throttled back. My cut off speed is in my mind, (?) common sense tells me not to pass other riders at a higher speed on a narrow single track. I'm STILL waiting for the actual examples, not theoretical, of all the hell the ebikes are raising, so far it's all in YOUR minds.


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## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

portnuefpeddler said:


> In the airplane world, there is a airplane called the Carbon Cub which meets the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) reg's, by placarding the panel that the 180 horse available cannot be fully used in level flight. If so, the max LSA level flight speed may be exceeded. The FAA bought into this go around, letting the CC sell as a LSA though some think it exceeds the regs. It has created no problems of any kind, just like my 1500 watt capable fat bike, it's as simple as acting like an adult, when I mix with conventional riders. I don't pass them or do anything different, I don't spin my tire, I keep it throttled back. My cut off speed is in my mind, (?) common sense tells me not to pass other riders at a higher speed on a narrow single track. I'm STILL waiting for the actual examples, not theoretical, of all the hell the ebikes are raising, so far it's all in YOUR minds.


The Vne (never exceed speed) of the Carbon Cub is 141 mph. The max speed of an LSA in level flight is 138 mph. So even if you aren't operating the plane as an LSA you aren't going to be going much faster anyway. And if people are going to abuse the LSA regs with Carbon Cub it would be running with a gross weight of more than 1320 pounds. And if they did, what kind of problems would there be anyway?

The law of physics state that my plane only develops 360 hp at full throttle, so in level flight it only goes about 205 mph. This has not caused any problems. I don't go that fast on single track though. If I pull to vertical while going full speed I can go straight up for about 3000 feet. This also doesn't cause any problems as long as I initiate the hammerhead turn at the correct time. So what?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Talk about a long way to a short answer , e bikes are here to stay get over it . Now back to the OP I see the need for this and in fact have been waiting for something like this . And talking about flying I once got sucked up in a thunder cloud in my Hangglider and it took me over 9,000ft and carried me over 35mi before I could get away from it with no motor , but the need for e bike gear is just starting to take off . I just spent $800 for some new fox forks and fox has come out with a e bike fork what is that?? I used fox 36s on mine which worked great in the root infested wv ride I just back from .


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

aborgman said:


> I'd say you're just attempting to maximize profit by avoiding short term profit at the expense of greater long term profit.
> 
> You're playing the long game instead of the short game (and you may be right or wrong)...but the game is still to maximize overall profits.


 Some play a different game. See REI, Patagonia, Planet Bike and many others. Some care about the planet and what happens to it, and how their business affects others and nature around it.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> As soon as someone who bitxhes about eBikes on trails shows me their full rigid singlespeed that they ride exclusively, I'll listen to their inane arguments about why eBikes should not be on trails. An eBike assists the rider, just like derailleurs, suspension, carbon frames, larger wheels/tires. Obviously, there is a gray area where they become "motorcycle", but other than your fragile ego, why does it matter whether someone gets there on a Levo or a Tallboy?


 Ugg, line in the sand. Does it have a motor. Does it not have a motor. Very simple. When they allow them in the tour de france I will reconsider.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Welnic said:


> No one is level headed enough to own a recreational howitzer.


I just need a silencer and a .25% load. That and 20 sq miles of land to blow **** up.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Empty_Beer said:


> Funny thing is, I've never ever seen a scooter poaching singletrack or riding fire roads. Why aren't those lazy bums ripping around on dirt now? I don't think we'll see pedal-less ebike mopeds that go 30+ mph on trails either.


That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I knew kids that rode Honda Sprees and similar scooters on social trails 20+ years ago.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

ryguy79 said:


> That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I knew kids that rode Honda Sprees and similar scooters on social trails 20+ years ago.


So THAT'S why we lost access to so many trails in the 80's and 90's!!! Damn Sprees tearing it up and ruining it for all. Before Strava too!!


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

pMTBers are terrified of losing trail access due to confusion with eMTBs because they know that they are already on thin ice in many places due to misbehavior within their own ranks. Their big worry is that new ebikers will either be actual pMTBers or that they will act like pMTBers and ride on busy trails in the same manner as is depicted in all the MTB videos. I really doubt that this will happen, but if all of these pMTB posters are correct about the irresponsibility and basic discourtesy of their peers and themselves, maybe they have a point.

It never occurred to me that there was something called "poaching" of trails or that illegal trail building was a thing. Nor that both had a long and highly lauded place in the history in the sport. Where I grew up we called it trespassing.......

Did anyone ever consider that by introducing a more mature and more responsible element to the trail system ebikes might help to mitigate the amount of nuisance criminality that seems to be so much a part of this sport? What else would you call trespassing or illegal trail building? Ditto bombing down closed trails and then posting it on Strava: petty crime.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Empty_Beer said:


> So THAT'S why we lost access to so many trails in the 80's and 90's!!! Damn Sprees tearing it up and ruining it for all. Before Strava too!!


Good job ignoring the point. Just because YOU haven't seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> PMTBErs are terrified of losing trail access due to confusion with ebikes because they are already on thin ice everywhere due to misbehavior within their own ranks. The big worry is that new ebikers will either be actual pMTBers or that they will act like pMTBers and ride on busy trails in the same manner as is depicted in all the MTB videos. I really doubt that this will happen, but if all of these pMTB posters are correct about the irresponsibility and basic discourtesy of their peers and themselves maybe they have a point.


If we are having a discussion about the videos on the web than I can conclude that every emotorbike that is coming will have 8000 watts and be capable of going uphill at 40 miles an hour. I prefer not to share a trail with that guy.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Did anyone ever consider that by introducing a more mature and more responsible element to the trail system ebikes might help to mitigate the amount of nuisance criminality that seems to be so much a part of this sport? What else would you call trespassing or illegal trail building? Ditto bombing down closed trails and then posting it on Strava: petty crime.


Hahahaaa

I hope your not basing the "mature and responsible" claim on the fellow ebikers you know on the ebike forums. Endless threads there on how to ride illegal bikes at illegal speeds in illegal places.

Every community has their idiots, I and other people here have spent a lot of time mollifying others over our idiots actions, I don't want to give our idiots superhuman strength as well to use while being idiots, they are enough of a problem as it is. And, I don't want to add your idiots to the mix.

Expectations are different on moto trails, there are far less user conflicts since anyone on the trail expects high speeds and dynamic fun. Hikers and dog walkers know what they are in for and usually stay off. Ebikes there are a good fit.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

WoodlandHills said:


> pMTBers are terrified of losing trail access due to confusion with eMTBs because they know that they are already on thin ice in many places due to misbehavior within their own ranks. Their big worry is that new ebikers will either be actual pMTBers or that they will act like pMTBers and ride on busy trails in the same manner as is depicted in all the MTB videos. I really doubt that this will happen, but if all of these pMTB posters are correct about the irresponsibility and basic discourtesy of their peers and themselves, maybe they have a point.
> 
> It never occurred to me that there was something called "poaching" of trails or that illegal trail building was a thing. Nor that both had a long and highly lauded place in the history in the sport. Where I grew up we called it trespassing.......
> 
> Did anyone ever consider that by introducing a more mature and more responsible element to the trail system ebikes might help to mitigate the amount of nuisance criminality that seems to be so much a part of this sport? What else would you call trespassing or illegal trail building? Ditto bombing down closed trails and then posting it on Strava: petty crime.


The trails I ride the most are moto-legal, so eMTB legal too. I really don't have a position in this except maybe that we should see how eBikes do on a limited basis and go from there.

But can I just say, every time you use pMTB, it fills me, someone who has some sympathy with your cause, with rage. Partially, it is the presumptuous act of relabeling the majority (and this is from a guy who doesn't mind being called cis-gendered). Partially it is the annoying lower case thing. But mostly it is the illogical stupidity of the terms. We're talking about pedal mountain bikes and pedal electric mountain bikes, so it should be peMTB and pMTB or to simplify, eMTB and MTB, since the electric part is what differentiates them, not the pedaling.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

IPunchCholla said:


> The trails I ride the most are moto-legal, so eMTB legal too. I really don't have a position in this except maybe that we should see how eBikes do on a limited basis and go from there.
> 
> But can I just say, every time you use pMTB, it fills me, someone who has some sympathy with your cause, with rage. Partially, it is the presumptuous act of relabeling the majority (and this is from a guy who doesn't mind being called cis-gendered). Partially it is the annoying lower case thing. But mostly it is the illogical stupidity of the terms. We're talking about pedal mountain bikes and pedal electric mountain bikes, so it should be peMTB and pMTB or to simplify, eMTB and MTB, since the electric part is what differentiates them, not the pedaling.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


You're reading the pMTB wrong. Woodland Hills calls regular bikes "push bikes". So the p stands for push. I can't imagine that will help with the rage thing, though.


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

There are mountain bikes (MTB's) and e-mountain bikes (eMTB's). Just stop it with the pMTB thing. Seriously.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

Welnic said:


> You're reading the pMTB wrong. Woodland Hills calls regular bikes "push bikes". So the p stands for push. I can't imagine that will help with the rage thing, though.


Thanks for the clarification, but push our pedal, the illogic is the same. I really don't know why it annoys me so much, but it does. So does the word selfie though.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> There are mountain bikes (MTB's) and e-mountain bikes (eMTB's). Just stop it with the pMTB thing. Seriously.


yes please^


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Multiple threads and endless pages of the same rhetoric yet the root of the issue remains largely ignored. 

Electric bikes are a separate user group and should acquire access the same way every other user group does. Simple and totally fair for everybody involved.

Why shove electric bikes down mountain bikers throats? Why insist on pretending it's a regular bicycle and tagging along with them? Why not stand on your own merits? What are you afraid of?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> My thoughts-
> 
> Some riders (myself included) do ride a little too fast at times for certain situations. Last week I was cranking up a hill at maybe 12mph or so and came up on some riders on horses a little too quickly on a blind corner. Grandpa was in the lead and both he and I reacted quickly, which was fortunate because I would have felt terrible if I spooked any of the horses and caused injury to one or both of his grand daughters.
> 
> ...


How fast can horses go?
A horse gives any rider the ability to achieve pro-level speeds and then some.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> How fast can horses go?


Usually around 3 or 4 mph. Depending on terrain a fast pace might be ~7mph. Have you ever been overtaken by a horse on a trail?


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Multiple threads and endless pages of the same rhetoric yet the root of the issue remains largely ignored.
> 
> Electric bikes are a separate user group and should acquire access the same way every other user group does. Simple and totally fair for everybody involved.
> 
> Why shove electric bikes down mountain bikers throats? Why insist on pretending it's a regular bicycle and tagging along with them? Why not stand on your own merits? What are you afraid of?


Cause for starters, the early adopters of ebikes are _mountain bikers_ who identify as cyclists, not dirt bikers? And as tran-syclists who feel the nice "tail-wind" isn't harshing anyone's mellow, they don't believe for 1 second that they need to "acquire access" any other way than just going out and doing what they always did on a normal mountain bike.

In 5 years, do you really think ebikers will only ride with fellow ebikers, or is there any chance a posse of cyclists will include 8 MTB'ers and 2 eMTB'ers hanging together? What are YOU afraid of?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I ride my ebike with other reg mt bikers all the time on the trails I was just in wv mount wood had a great time riding with some locals ,I had to point out to them that I was on a e bike . Every one of them thought my e bike was cool and was more concerned with me not wearing a helmet which I usually do with my gopro . When I came out of the woods I spotted the park ranger rode over and talked to him pointing to my mangled front fender he laughed , the hate for e bikes seem to be a west coast thing and to this form . Headed to Mich to do some riding next


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Empty_Beer said:


> Cause for starters, the early adopters of ebikes are _mountain bikers_ who identify as cyclists, not dirt bikers?


It doesn't matter what they identify as, it's what they actually are that matters.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yep ther mt bikes looks like one rides like one


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Money cures all...
...if Red Bull steps up and does the e-bike thing they will pump lots of money into a certain area and then the big "shut up" will take effect as the receivers of the money will allow all to happen!

Or How about trails where "mt bikes" aren't allow at all just e-bikes!

Stir, stir, stir...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

NEPMTBA said:


> Money cures all...
> ...if Red Bull steps up and does the e-bike thing they will pump lots of money into a certain area and then the big "shut up" will take effect as the receivers of the money will allow all to happen!
> 
> Or How about trails where "mt bikes" aren't allow at all just e-bikes!
> ...


That's fine. Build them and ride them. Just stay off of non-OHV trails.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

But ther Mt bikes made by Mt bike company's for Mt bike use and there fun


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> But ther Mt bikes made by Mt bike company's for Mt bike use and there fun


Dude...what?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Dude...what?


Yeah, is it just me or is this guy making less sense with every post? Stroke? I'm seriously starting to worry this guy has some real issues..


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Since I live in California where an MTB (or any other B) can be either electric or pushbike by state law, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. In 2016, in Los Angeles, calling something a bicycle does not tell you if it's an ebike or not. My Class 1 and Class 2 are both MTBs as far as the law is concerned and it's only a matter of time until popular usage follows. If I can help by popularizing a descriptor (pMTB), I am happy to do my part. In fact, I make it a point to use it in every forum I post on for every subject I have an interest and I've seen it taken up by others every time. I just start off typing pushbike and switch to pbike, soon everyone is using pbike and ebike and pMTB. Car sites in particular seem to love ebikes of all kinds and pickup on new terms like pMTB quickly!

I didn't know that it was so upsetting to the folks here. Honestly, one reason it's popular is that folks who don't ride think it's funny! It sounds a bit rude and combined with the ridiculous Lycra riding costumes and those shoes that make noises when they walk that pbikers wear, well, the whole thing makes people smile. What's wrong with that? Did you guys not know how silly it looks to everyone else when you're all dressed up?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WoodlandHills said:


> it was not my intent to give offense.


Yes it was. You've trolled this board since you joined.


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> Since I live in California where an MTB (or any other B) can be either electric or pushbike by state law, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. In 2016, in Los Angeles, calling something a bicycle does not tell you if it's an ebike or not. My Class 1 and Class 2 are both MTBs as far as the law is concerned and it's only a matter of time until popular usage follows. If I can help by popularizing a descriptor (pMTB), I am happy to do my part. In fact, I make it a point to use it in every forum I post on for every subject I have an interest and I've seen it taken up by others every time. I just start off typing pushbike and switch to pbike, soon everyone is using pbike and ebike and pMTB. Car sites in particular seem to love ebikes of all kinds and pickup on new terms like pMTB quickly!
> 
> I didn't know that it was so upsetting to the folks here. It's regrettable that people are so sensitive, it was not my intent to give offense.


The term pushbike is the stupidest thing I've read all day.


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## Johnny_T (May 29, 2004)

WoodlandHills said:


> If I can help by popularizing a descriptor (pMTB), I am happy to do my part.


My goal is to popularize the descriptor emotorbike instead of ebike since all the owners of them seem to forget they have a motor and it really is the difference between them and a bike. I have seen a few other uses throughout the boards


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Yes it was. You've trolled this board since you joined.


Sure, but not by using pbike........


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> Sure, but not by using pbike........


I'm going to start calling ebikes cbikes instead. Figure it out.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

WoodlandHills said:


> Since I live in California where an MTB (or any other B) can be either electric or pushbike by state law, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. In 2016, in Los Angeles, calling something a bicycle does not tell you if it's an ebike or not. My Class 1 and Class 2 are both MTBs as far as the law is concerned and it's only a matter of time until popular usage follows. If I can help by popularizing a descriptor (pMTB), I am happy to do my part. In fact, I make it a point to use it in every forum I post on for every subject I have an interest and I've seen it taken up by others every time. I just start off typing pushbike and switch to pbike, soon everyone is using pbike and ebike and pMTB. Car sites in particular seem to love ebikes of all kinds and pickup on new terms like pMTB quickly!
> 
> I didn't know that it was so upsetting to the folks here. Honestly, one reason it's popular is that folks who don't ride think it's funny! It sounds a bit rude and combined with the ridiculous Lycra riding costumes and those shoes that make noises when they walk that pbikers wear, well, the whole thing makes people smile. What's wrong with that? Did you guys not know how silly it looks to everyone else when you're all dressed up?


It should still be epMTB vs pMTB, since in both cases they are push bikes as you (and I shudder here) call them. I mean isn't that the while point for these mountain bikes that have electric motors, that you have to push the pedals to get them to go? Isn't that why California law lumps them in and advocates argue they are OK for MUPs?

So then for simplicity let's just drop the p and focus on the differentiator, the e.

Now when we start talking no pedal electric bikes you can add the p to you eMTB.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## ryguy79 (Apr 12, 2007)

IPunchCholla said:


> Now when we start talking no pedal electric bikes you can add the p to you eMTB.


From one of his posts in another thread, he's already there. He specifically says no pedaling.



WoodlandHills said:


> My top speed is determined by my gearing: 20mph on the flat, no pedaling, WOT/full PAS makes me Class 1 legal. Given that my top speed is 20 on the flat, uphill it's a lot slower......


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

ryguy79 said:


> From one of his posts in another thread, he's already there. He specifically says no pedaling.


So, is he advocating for under powered electric motorcycles on MUPs?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> All bikes banned. I'm sure you could ban individuals if you wanted but that's not what they did:
> Strava Speeds Help Mountain Bikers Get Banned From California Park | Teton Gravity Research
> 
> -Walt


And how often do you read rants here about going to fast DH? Mtb riders are concerned about trail access with good reason, but it's nothing to do with e-bikes. It's the gonzo mtb faction. Note the article outlines massive poaching and trail building by mtb riders.



J.B. Weld said:


> Speaking for myself I wouldn't want to categorically prohibit electric bikes from all non-motorized trails but I'm adamant about not categorically allowing them on every non-motorized trail, and from what I see that sentiment echoes the views of many "anti-ebike" posters here.


I'm a compromiser. And reading you don't advocate a categorical ban is encouraging. 



Walt said:


> Yes, exactly. The e-bike folks seem to want their machines categorized and treated as normal bikes across the board.
> -Walt


Big generalization of a bunch of varied views.

Yes, in my perfect world the bar would be impact and 250 pedelecs would be allowed wherever a mtb can go, at least until there proven harm. But I would compromise that position. Already I proposed e-bike permits. If some trails are super-crowded then maybe no-e-bikes (though I don't see how that effects crowds).

I do not claim a 250w pedelec IS a motorless bicycle. Of course they are different tools fundamentally. Those differences don't effect impact though, at least in a meaningful way.



rockcrusher said:


> This is the crux of my objections to most bike related issues. Closing speeds can be bad even without motors. Users that are racing each other without regard to trail conditions can and have caused accidents. However changing the paradigm to one way for all bicycle traffic can be difficult. In AZ we built a trail on Tucson that initially started as just a trail, then we realized that it had the potential to be very dangerous to someone going the wrong direction and we set out to mark the trail with one way signs wherever it was possible to get someone looping in and going the wrong way. Every so often I would run into someone who, for whatever reason, didn't realize that it was one way. It was terrifying in the most extreme way because I wasn't expecting to see someone coming towards me on a section so I was going at a speed I felt was safe for conditions but was too fast to react to the opposite going trail user and in AZ you want to stay on the trails.
> 
> I would accept that e-bikes will be joining mountain bikes on the trails in the near future but I think the only way to do so in a non-conflicting way is to introduce one-way systems wherever the 2 differing modes of trail users will be meeting and sharing trails with each others and other modes. Single direction trails can be awesome, you can build the trail to work with traffic direction or you can leave it ambiguous and reverse the direction every couple of years. Other users could have bi-directionality but mountain bikes could be restrained. It would be like a ski hill with alpine skiers locked into descending but backcountry skiers going about wherever they want to go.
> 
> I would not go ride my mountain bike on trails that weren't directional with e-bikes on the trails, as the risks would far outweigh the benefits for me of coming across someone going at the gold standard 20mph in a corner up a hill while I am descending with my kids or just plain descending and not expecting someone to be approaching me at the same speed.


If the trail needs to be one-way it implies one thing: fast DH riding.

That is THE access issue. E-bikes have nothing to do with it, and speculation is just that. To quote Shakespeare on ebikes: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

For people like me speed is not a goal. I don't want to jump. I don't want to use the backcountry like a motocross track. It's my public land and I'd like to enjoy it in a practical and low impact way, without putting anyone in danger.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You are right uhoh7 its not the speed when I go down hill on my e bike I pick my way down I don't need to carry speed making a e bike safer , its fun to go slow and just enjoy the trail .


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Since I live in California where an MTB (or any other B) can be either electric or pushbike by state law, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. In 2016, in Los Angeles, calling something a bicycle does not tell you if it's an ebike or not.


Are there really that many morons in LA?

Nevermind...stupid question.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> It sounds a bit rude and combined with the ridiculous Lycra riding costumes and those shoes that make noises when they walk that pbikers wear, well, the whole thing makes people smile. What's wrong with that? Did you guys not know how silly it looks to everyone else when you're all dressed up?


I wonder if anybody would find it silly to need a motor to ride a "bike"...


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

WoodlandHills said:


> It sounds a bit rude and combined with the ridiculous Lycra riding costumes and those shoes that make noises when they walk that pbikers wear, well, the whole thing makes people smile. What's wrong with that? Did you guys not know how silly it looks to everyone else when you're all dressed up?


So what you're saying is that if you don't understand someone, feel threatened by them, or feel insecure, start name calling and bullying. Gotcha!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> So what you're saying is that if you don't understand someone, feel threatened by them, or feel insecure, start name calling and bullying. Gotcha!


Anti-E sentiment in a nutshell 

I think the motocross/supercross scene is unassailable when it comes to pfoofy fashion obsession. 

I love to watch the races, which are so good right now, but the get ups: OMG. Some teams have added increased bar guards to allow more ads!

And the mtb/moto crossovers like Tomac show the real outlooks of mtb riders vary widely.

As to dealing with hardened viewpoints on internet forums, you should have seen me try to convince the moto folks global warming was real and caused by us on thumper talk in 2004. I ran down every argument they made.

Of course it made no difference, as rational thinking seldom trumps emotional identity viewpoints.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

uhoh7 said:


> Of course it made no difference, as rational thinking seldom trumps emotional identity viewpoints.


I can agree with this.

I think that both sides of this issue need to take a moment and really understand the realities of the situation. Here are some key points that I think should be focused on and discussed rationally, avoiding the senseless bickering and name-calling that is getting us nowhere. I am going to start a new thread with this post, and I intend it to be productive and civil.

1. E-bikes aren't going away any time soon, so ignoring them is not going to solve anything.

2. E-bikes have just as much right to trails as any other trail user. The question is obviously which trails should they have access to?

3. Just saying e-bikes are not mountain bikes doesn't solve anything. I personally believe they should be classified differently than both mountain bikes and motorcycles, which is a problem when it comes to trail designations. Should there be universal designations, or should it be a trail-by-trail basis?

4. Should mountain bikers embrace e-bikes or fight them? Yes, e-bikes could theoretically increase trail access in places as the number of trail users increases and start to advocate for access. However, siding with e-bikes could possibly cause super-groups like the Sierra Club to use e-bikes against us. I have my personal thoughts on this, but I realize this is a debatable topic.

5. There are people that will push the boundaries and cause problems for everybody. How do we fairly account for this reality when designating trail access?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Very reasonable and good points


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I can agree with this.
> 
> I think that both sides of this issue need to take a moment and really understand the realities of the situation. Here are some key points that I think should be focused on and discussed rationally, avoiding the senseless bickering and name-calling that is getting us nowhere. I am going to start a new thread with this post, and I intend it to be productive and civil.
> 
> ...


Great post 

A problem when it comes to trails designations? We just need a few new ones, that's all.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

uhoh7 said:


> I'm a compromiser. And reading you don't advocate a categorical ban is encouraging.


I have never advocated a categorical ban, and neither have most other posters who have objections to them. And yet we have repeatedly been labeled as "haters" by the pro electric bikers here.

Also I have yet to hear an intelligent response from you or anyone else as to why categorizing them separately from bicycles and determining trail access on an individual basis is unreasonable. Anything?


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

That's not unreasonable not sure how the e bike thing will get worked out but it will and yes I have called you guys e haters but you guys have called me us pro e bike worst , I will refrain from doing so .


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Also I have yet to hear an intelligent response from anyone as to why categorizing them separately from bicycles and determining trail access on an individual basis is unreasonable. Anything?


Once again, I believe that is the plan, from what I've read from IMBA and BPSA: Agree that ebikes are a new category and determine what parks or trails they will be permitted on, on a case by case basis.

This is the proper way to go. Blanket bans neither make sense, nor work.

_
IMBA has worked very hard to define mountain biking as
non-motorized. IMBA recognizes that eMTBs, particularly
those equipped with Type 1 pedal-assist are substantially
different from other motorized uses, *and may warrant a
separate category and new management strategies.* _

https://www.imba.com/sites/default/files/eMTB Study Fact Sheet .pdf

As I've written many times before, I don't think the eMTB consumers will wait for all the legal or environmental issues to be hammered out before hitting the trail... and I also don't think that will have a measurable affect on the legal acceptance of eMTB's on what we currently call "non-motorized" singletrack. I also believe the slippery slope argument that most ebikes will be unregulated, 40 mph, non-pedal machines is silly. We'll see about as many of those in the future as we see today, which for me is none so far.

I do think it is going to cost A LOT of money to swap signs out and update maps to show where this new category is and isn't allowed to go. I would hope the eMTB industry is going to fund that.


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## jsalas2 (Nov 29, 2008)

joining thread


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Empty_Beer said:


> Once again, I believe that is the plan, from what I've read from IMBA and BPSA: Agree that ebikes are a new category and determine what parks or trails they will be permitted on, on a case by case basis.
> 
> This is the proper way to go. Blanket bans neither make sense, nor work.
> 
> ...


TY for excellent post 

I don't agree with parts of it, but it's thought out and tolerant.

as to the MTBR policy, I had to laugh at this:
"We also believe there's a difference between an e-bike and a motorcycle and that difference comes down to throttle application and maximum power output."

In the real world there are motorcycles, loud, hot and smoky. And then there are e-bikes which try to be a motorcycle but are silent. HUGE difference. And finally e-mtbs, which use mtb frames and components with pedal assist drives at various power levels.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> In the real world there are motorcycles, loud, hot and smoky. And then there are e-bikes which try to be a motorcycle but are silent. HUGE difference. And finally e-mtbs, which use mtb frames and components with pedal assist drives at various power levels.


ZERO MOTORCYCLES â€" The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site



> there's a difference between an e-bike and a motorcycle and that difference comes down to throttle application and maximum power output


Zero Motorcycles are not Loud, Hot or Smoky. I see nothing wrong with saying the difference is Throttle application and Maximum power output.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Empty_Beer said:


> I do think it is going to cost A LOT of money to swap signs out and update maps to show where this new category is and isn't allowed to go. I would hope the eMTB industry is going to fund that.


I agree with you 100%, the eMTB industry should definitely fund the change in the signage and device a way to further secure their products from hacks.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i was wondering where the religion thread is? can someone plz point me in the right direction?

ebikes need their own forum, hands down. stop trying to force kool-aid down our throats. i heard tesla is now working with specialized to make an ebike with auto pilot. i wish humanity would revert back to less retarded sh!t. trump also supports them, check it out.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

:lol: We need a thread block app here. I need a safe-space away from the harassment from these eBike threads. I KNOW MY RIGHTS!!! :nono:


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