# Dream Bike packing wheel set



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

So, have been doing some thinking recently, and am possibly planning to get a 2nd set of wheels for my OG Krampus next year. Want to start saving some money away now.

Looking to build the "ultimate" (or at least a solid "not so rich guy" ) bike packing wheel set for 29+ rigid. Definitely want a dynamo hub on the front. 

what do y'all think? What is out there?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> So, have been doing some thinking recently, and am possibly planning to get a 2nd set of wheels for my OG Krampus next year. Want to start saving some money away now.
> 
> Looking to build the "ultimate" (or at least a solid "not so rich guy" ) bike packing wheel set for 29+ rigid. Definitely want a dynamo hub on the front.
> 
> what do y'all think? What is out there?


For whom? Used where? Used how? Used how often? With what goals? Compared to which current wheels? With which size tires? Tubes or tubeless? Pressure range?

Etc...

Point simply being, everyone's "ideal" is different, because *we* are all different.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mikesee said:


> For whom? Used where? Used how? Used how often? With what goals? Compared to which current wheels? With which size tires? Tubes or tubeless? Pressure range?
> 
> Etc...
> 
> Point simply being, everyone's "ideal" is different, because *we* are all different.


hmmm...

- it would be for me: 6' and between 190 and 210lbs given the season
- doing most of the riding in the midwest, Canada or east coast
- fall, spring and early summer trips; probably some wet and snow riding, but not deep snow for now
- for now, not more than 2-3 day adventures due to work schedule; week long trips in the summer; 
- current wheels are Rabbit Holes with Knards on them; Surly hubs
- goals for now would be to get some short trips in to build strength and health; 
- would prefer to have 3"wide tires; I have always run tubes...am not opposed to trying tubeless, but have never really needed to for the riding I do now; 
- would be doing gravel road, and some single/double track type riding <- then some single track riding once at camp sites;
- I currently run the Knards at 17psi, and would actually be happy with staying with the Knards for bike packing

- i would also plan on running my 1x set up

I am not a weight weenie for sure, so that is not at the top of the list, but would not say "no" to a lighter set for the longer trips.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> hmmm...


That's good info.

Given that you don't care a lot about weight, and you don't seem too fussed with tubeless, what is it that you want this new set to be able to do that your current wheels won't, or can't?


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Myself, I'd skip the dynamo. I found that using a battery bank is much more effective.
- Delorme will run 3+ days between charges.
- ETrex uses AA batteries.
- Headlight uses 18650 rechargables.
- Phone runs a few days in airplane mode. Searching for services kills them quick.
- Garmin Edge 500 is the only thing needing charged daily.

I had a wheelset with a SP PD-8X dynamo. I had a devil of a time charging anything with it. I sold the wheels with a bike.

My perfect rims are Stans Arch MK3 running tubeless. I don't run + sized tires though.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

mikesee said:


> That's good info.
> 
> Given that you don't care a lot about weight, and you don't seem too fussed with tubeless, what is it that you want this new set to be able to do that your current wheels won't, or can't?


well, that might have been an underlying thought in my questioning...do I even need a new wheel set? I think I am in the process of trying to figure out whether I need/want a dynamo hub and whether I do want to reduce the weight. Baker's post below is some insight on the dynamo thing for sure. As I get stronger - and more time to ride in the future - that might be more useful. For now, I can probably get away with a charger pack.



bakerjw said:


> Myself, I'd skip the dynamo. I found that using a battery bank is much more effective.
> - Delorme will run 3+ days between charges.
> - ETrex uses AA batteries.
> - Headlight uses 18650 rechargables.
> ...


So it might be that my thought should be, what is a good set for my normal midwestern, fall/winter/spring trail riding, and that I already have the bike packing set up that I need...

just sort of a process of thinking "out loud" I guess.


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## Moof123 (Jul 1, 2019)

In my dreams I am so manly as to not care about hills, bumps, and the prices of carbon tomfoolery.

Instead I will tell you what I am building up at the moment.

WTB Asym i35 29" rims. Why? Well my bike is non-boost and these look like a decent way to get strong wheel for QR hubs. They are also a bit odd, which appeals to my contrarian nature. I like the idea I can stick down to 2.4" tires on them if I want to, and hopefully get away with 3.0" too.

Dynamo hub: I'm trying a Shimano QR dynamo hub in front I found off ebay for $50. On my last 8 day trip the power from a 15,000 mAh bank was good for 4 days of tunes, headlight recharging, GPS running, and headphone recharging. After that everything probably could have made it another couple days before going flat (with lots of crossed fingers that my headlight would not conk out at a bad time). I ended up staying in a hotel after day 4 for a night which let me get a bit of a charge (power bank only got 1/3 charged overnight). I had to curtail my music for a couple days to make sure I could save some phone charge and keep my lights going. So now I am trying a dynamo for grins and giggles.

Back hub: Shimano XT no frills, no sexiness. I just don't get the bling factor on expensive hubs, so I am sticking with what has never let me down and doesn't break the bank.

Tires: Trying 3.0" Knards, cuz why not. Sure the rims are a bit skinny. I am not shredding just grinding along on mostly gravel double track. I am just looking for some decent traction and to smooth out the rough bits, so I'm not too worried about it.

While there is a small part of me that lusts for light carbon rims, sniny hubs, and other fanciness, I also am totally against owning a garage queen that I fear beating the hell out of. Modest price lets me be guilt free when I wear things out or break something, or even just decide I want to try something different.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Moof123 said:


> In my dreams I am so manly as to not care about hills, bumps, and the prices of carbon tomfoolery.
> 
> Instead I will tell you what I am building up at the moment.
> 
> ...


I agree with the simplicity thing as well. Simple and strong.

I think I would be more comfy with 40mm rims, but probably will stick with the Knards for the bike packing thing b/c they roll pretty well over just about everything. The only electronics I would have with me would be lights and, GPS and phone. I love music, but don't know if I would want to ride with my ears closed off by headphones. I can't do ear buds...

where do you ride?


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## Moof123 (Jul 1, 2019)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> I agree with the simplicity thing as well. Simple and strong.
> 
> I think I would be more comfy with 40mm rims, but probably will stick with the Knards for the bike packing thing b/c they roll pretty well over just about everything. The only electronics I would have with me would be lights and, GPS and phone. I love music, but don't know if I would want to ride with my ears closed off by headphones. I can't do ear buds...
> 
> where do you ride?


I'm in the Portland Oregon area, so around Mt Hood, and most recently I did Portland to the Oregon Outback going East to Shaniko, then South from there. Kicked my out of shape butt. I'm an earbud whore, can't justify, just am. I'm sporting a 2018 Unit 2X, cuz 1x drivetrains are just not my ball of wax.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Moof123 said:


> I'm in the Portland Oregon area, so around Mt Hood, and most recently I did Portland to the Oregon Outback going East to Shaniko, then South from there. Kicked my out of shape butt. I'm an earbud whore, can't justify, just am. I'm sporting a 2018 Unit 2X, cuz 1x drivetrains are just not my ball of wax.


ah...cool. You have way more access to riding areas than I do here...or at least close access.

I wish I could find a way to listen to music as i ride. I am a professional musician by trade, so I am listening all the time, but but ear buds mess with my equilibrium, and make me nauseous...was gonna try those Aftershokz things, but too many people that I know have said that they don't "work like you think they will"


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

The way I see it, if you do a lot of riding at night, a dynamo is 100% necessary. Bike lights use a ton of energy and dynamo lighting is really really good. If you don't ride a ton at night, and you're not going more than 2-3 days without an outlet, then don't bother. Turn your phone off and bring a big backup battery. 

I just had this debate myself for my mountain bike. Mostly I ride it as a mountain bike during the day. A few times a year I take it out on bikepacking trips, usually in the overnight to 5 day range. However, here in New England, we swing through towns several times a day, so there are plenty of opportunities to recharge a big backup battery. Instead I'm going to invest in a quick charge battery that can top up while I'm eating breakfast. That way, the 99% of my rides that aren't deep in the woods for days on end, I can ride a lighter, cheaper, faster, more fun bike.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

Way off topic, but whatever:

Str8, I have tried the Aftershokz. They are OK, but not great. My wife has them and LOVES them. They didn't work for me. I wear glasses when I ride, and the headphone band gets in the way of the glasses ear tab. Also, the speaker part of the headphone keeps moving around and sliding into the wrong spot.

I tried them on my commute, which involves an extended section of bike path next to a freeway. Without the noise blocking aspect of earbuds, the freeway was too loud to hear my music. Oh, and if you turn them up to the max, the bass starts physically shaking your head (which is stupid - a high pass filter at high volume would fix this completely). 

Oh, and the sound quality is terrible. But for podcasts, whatever.

Oh, and 6 hour battery life, coupled with a weirdly rigid neck band makes them pretty awful for backcountry use. You can't stash them away when they are charging, and you'll need them to be charging a lot.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

lentamentalisk said:


> The way I see it, if you do a lot of riding at night, a dynamo is 100% necessary. Bike lights use a ton of energy and dynamo lighting is really really good. If you don't ride a ton at night, and you're not going more than 2-3 days without an outlet, then don't bother. Turn your phone off and bring a big backup battery.
> 
> I just had this debate myself for my mountain bike. Mostly I ride it as a mountain bike during the day. A few times a year I take it out on bikepacking trips, usually in the overnight to 5 day range. However, here in New England, we swing through towns several times a day, so there are plenty of opportunities to recharge a big backup battery. Instead I'm going to invest in a quick charge battery that can top up while I'm eating breakfast. That way, the 99% of my rides that aren't deep in the woods for days on end, I can ride a lighter, cheaper, faster, more fun bike.


good points, and it sounds like you ride in the same way I do...probably will not target the dynamo now...they are moderately expensive as well.

And thanks for the Aftrshoks info. Much of that is what I have heard from other people as well.

I think I a mmore in need of getting a second set of wet/winter riding wheels rather than long trip specific wheels since the Knard/Rabbit Hole thing seems to be fine for touring. I like the Knards for any dry riding that I do around here, but they are not good in wet and deeper snow


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> probably will stick with the Knards for the bike packing thing b/c they roll pretty well over just about everything.


Bontrager XR2's, formally the Chupacabra over a knard..... had good luck with a Race Face arc rim thus far too.

Both the above would be tubeless.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> Bontrager XR2's, formally the Chupacabra over a knard..... had good luck with a Race Face arc rim thus far too.
> 
> Both the above would be tubeless.


definitely in the front run if I go to a different set for inclement weather riding...


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## nowhereyonder (Nov 29, 2016)

I might be the only one, but I was excited to see Surly finally came out with tubeless 60tpi 29x3.0 Knards. For a fast, high volume tire they're hard to beat and the 27tpi versions seem to last forever in terms of wear.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

nowhereyonder said:


> I might be the only one, but I was excited to see Surly finally came out with tubeless 60tpi 29x3.0 Knards. For a fast, high volume tire they're hard to beat and the 27tpi versions seem to last forever in terms of wear.


hmmm...didn't know that. I am not totally drinking the tubeless Kool Aid yet, but would not be against it. I have heard that Rabbit Holes are hard to run tubeless as well...


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## nowhereyonder (Nov 29, 2016)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> hmmm...didn't know that. I am not totally drinking the tubeless Kool Aid yet, but would not be against it. I have heard that Rabbit Holes are hard to run tubeless as well...


It's not so much of a tubeless issue, so much as Surly has decided to finally move the Knard out of the plus-stone-age into modernity. The 27tpi wire was heavy, and the folding bead 120tpi was known for having weak sidewalls. Lateral traction is poor. Neither were officially tubeless, and other manufacturers's tire soon got a better reputation. Few competitors are as big though, none of them are as fast and the 27tpi wears really well. So yeah, the Knard is a niche within a niche, but it's better than it was....

FWIW, I've run stock 27tpi Knards tubeless on Rabbit Holes split tube and they were always reliable. They've been relegated to running around town and easy trails by my father using tubes, but I wouldn't hesitate to run either tubeless again on longer trips where float, rollover and speed are paramount.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I recently replaced my well used Pacenti TLR28 29er rims with a pair of Nextie 35mm carbon rims, using db14 spokes and alloy nipples. Re-used my Phil wood front and Alfine 8 rear hubs. Stiffest wheels I've ever built up... no dish, not too heavy, but not too light either, perfect for bikepacking.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

bsieb said:


> I recently replaced my well used Pacenti TLR28 29er rims with a pair of Nextie 35mm carbon rims, using db14 spokes and alloy nipples. Re-used my Phil wood front and Alfine 8 rear hubs. Stiffest wheels I've ever built up... no dish, not too heavy, but not too light either, perfect for bikepacking.


sweet...will have to look up those options!!


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## ionivan (Mar 15, 2018)

bsieb said:


> I recently replaced my well used Pacenti TLR28 29er rims with a pair of Nextie 35mm carbon rims, using db14 spokes and alloy nipples. Re-used my Phil wood front and Alfine 8 rear hubs. Stiffest wheels I've ever built up... no dish, not too heavy, but not too light either, perfect for bikepacking.


I am looking at carbon rims too.
Rocky Mountain Element 29 xc fs bike, 75 kg, lightweight bikepacking setup.
Riding mostly flatland, visit mountains once a year.

Deciding between ~400 gr i29 rims or <350 gr lightweight i25 with cushcore xc inserts.
Already have 32H syntace hubs. Will use brass nipples and sapim d-light spokes.
Maybe will break my piggy bank and buy CX-ray spokes.
2.25" schwalbe tyres, maybe some 2.4 like bontrager xr2.

What do you guys think? Any bikepacking experience with tire inserts?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

ionivan said:


> I am looking


Tire inserts are neat. Not mandatory, but they do what they're supposed to.

I will likely never understand the fascination with CX Ray spokes. They're brittle, they ride harsh relative to almost every other spoke, and you have to pay more for the 'privilege'.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

so after reading the posts in this thread, and doing some thinking, I am feeling like I need more of a great wheel set for trail riding, and then use the OG Rabbit Hole/Knard set for bike packing (?)

am thinking that a 40mm wide rim and some better tires for the fall/winter/spring is more of what I want...and that I am thinking of getting a lighter set for that kind of riding...

the fun is in the process, which this is part of...been cool to reference some of the products people are suggesting that I was not familiar with before

keep the info coming!


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Tire inserts are neat. Not mandatory, but they do what they're supposed to.
> 
> I will likely never understand the fascination with CX Ray spokes. They're brittle, they ride harsh relative to almost every other spoke, and you have to pay more for the 'privilege'.


I've never relied on the understanding of others when I make my purchase decisions.
I built up my CX-Ray wheels for my Ogre back in 2012 (from memory) in spite of plenty of nay sayers and I've never regretted my decision.
Never broken a spoke and they've done plenty of heavily laden miles as I tour with racks and 4 panniers, handlebar bag and rack bag.
Bike more often than not hauling a Extrawheel trailer for water duty.
Funnily enough, so impressed with my bikes wheels, I mirrored the wheel build with CX-Rays, for the trailer.
Other than a two yearly tension check, I've had to do nothing to them.
I'd have gone with Alpine 3's back in the day but the J bend sizing wasn't suitable for my rear hub.

Still loving my dynohub and IGH.

Only thing I'd do differently would be getting brass nipples rather than the alloy ones that came with the Rays.


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## rifraf (Dec 22, 2012)

bakerjw said:


> M
> I had a wheelset with a SP PD-8X dynamo. I had a devil of a time charging anything with it. I sold the wheels with a bike.


This seems a common complaint for some charging systems that seem to need quite a pace before the charging kicks in eg. Sinewave needing around 15kmph.
I was lucky with my E-werk which starts putting something out around 8 or 9 kmph.
I use it to keep my phone, Edge unit andl headlight torch topped up.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> So, have been doing some thinking recently, and am possibly planning to get a 2nd set of wheels for my OG Krampus next year. Want to start saving some money away now.
> 
> Looking to build the "ultimate" (or at least a solid "not so rich guy" ) bike packing wheel set for 29+ rigid. Definitely want a dynamo hub on the front.
> 
> what do y'all think? What is out there?


I've been guilty of building up some blingy wheels for trail riding. For bikepacking all I want is reliable without being stupid heavy/harsh. I've got some Hope hubs + Rabbit Hole wheels on my OG Krampus that have seen a lot of abuse on a rigid/hardtail with no complaints. The rims are perfect and they've never needed a spoke wrench and the tubeless setup has been flawless. Nothing fancy, but that's exactly what I want out of a set of bikepacking wheels trouble free riding.

If I was starting from scratch building a 29+ wheel set I'd still go with Hope or DT Swiss hubs and some of the low[er] cost Chinese carbon rims [I've had good luck with Light Bicycle]. I'll leave the spoke choice to my wheel builder as I usually do.

I don't want a dynhub hub on a bikepacking bike as I do my best to reduce my electronics such that carrying extra batteries isn't a problem and being a realist I do more trail riding with my bikepacking bike than bikepacking so no need to push that dynohub around all the time.


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

ionivan said:


> What do you guys think? Any bikepacking experience with tire inserts?


I have been using Pepi's RokLine Noodles for 12 months now on Stan's Valor and Crest rims with 2.25 to 2.35 tires usually at 10 to 15 psi. 
Vertically they feel like 10 to 15 psi but laterally they feel like 30 psi, so no folding over of the sidewalls under extreme cornering forces. 
At first I had trouble getting the rim tape to stick to the Valor carbon rim, so did a bit of riding with no to little air in the rear, (one time at 0 psi up to 7km including North Shore singletrack, and another time for 10km with overnight bikepack load at 7 psi) with no damage to the tire, rim or noodle. 
Last month I changed a tire because I wanted something knobbier for winter, and couldn't find a mark on the noodle, even though I have repeatedly bottomed out on sharp rocks.
For bike packing I found the noodles allowed me to ride at about 10 psi over 10-30mm angular railway ballast and feel like I am just riding a normal gravel road, but still have the light weight advantage to not feel the sluggishness of fat tires.
Since it is now easy to find good deals on used narrow carbon rims because they are out of fashion (I found mine on PinkBike), you can probably get a narrow carbon wheel set cheaper than a wide aluminum wheel set.
Valor rim with Rokline (at 330 gm + 95 gm) vs Arch Mk3 (at 453 gm and no insert), so narrow rim with insert can be lighter overall too. (Pepi's RaceLine red noodle is even lighter, and inserts feel like they provide the side support of a rim even wider than the Arch)
For roll down testing or coasting next to others, I don't see a rolling resistance change on pavement, and if anything (like with rail ballast) the noodles are faster

The cons are that changing a tire takes more time and effort, and if you flat on the trail, it is easier (and much less messy) just to keep riding carefully rather than trying to put a tube in (for BC Marathon races, I have stopped carrying a spare tube, so another 200 gm saving)


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