# PAUL CROSSTOP III brakes,, Can I even find them somewhere..!?!?



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

This is a strange model Design as far as I know is a transition from Low Pull Canti levers to the V-brake realm..









This days I have a Cyclocross bike and the stupid Canti's with STI Levers are making me crazy (I love Canti's Just not with STI road bike levers), so I'm searching for a more elegant solution like this paul CrossStop's

I guess If I can not find them I can modified a set of XTR v-brakes or even make my own brakes (Milling machine at hand).but will be nice to find the Folcrums, cable pulls and dimensions.

I also found this other solutions from

"Strange Brakes"


















IRD as usual Brilliant









Collateral thinking IRD solution, what a shame his brain is fried by now.









But I'm more than Open to suggestions, bigger pictures and/or even mathematical formulars


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

STI levers dont pull very much cable (less than a standard canti brake lever). Are you sure you want to go to a V style brake? Your best bet woth STI is probably something like a Mafac or Paul's Mafac copy.

The set up on the last picture might work though with the high leverage STI's. Who made that? IRD?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

A set of hte Paul's were on eBay this week. The auction just ended. I have a set of Cross Stop 2 brakes (full bike worth) connected to mtb levers, and I'm not overly impressed - they're not very adjustable, very finicky, and all around a pain to set-up.

What's your issue with cantis with STI levers? I think that they work just dandy.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Man Canti's

I have try pretty much anything, Mafac's, Empella froglegs, pauls, Avid tri alings, Xtr's , tall stratle cables, pads In pads out toe in, flats, you name it, even my super secret weapon the Windwood Urethane pads with very little Improvement..

ps: I'm totally old school bike geek and I have set up millions of canti brakes to work really well, but so far not much luck with my Empella, also the brake bosses flex a little to much but I'm out of DKG braces to fix the flexion


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

patineto said:


> Man Canti's
> 
> I have try pretty much anything, Mafac's pauls, Avid tri alings, Xtr's you name it, even my super secret weapon the Windwood Urethane pads with very little Improvement..
> 
> ps: I'm totally old school bike geek and I have set up millions of canti brakes to work really well, but so far not much luck with my Empella.


What problems are you having?


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> What problems are you having?


well as easy as they don't stop my FatAss, so I'm pre-braking everywhere scrubbing speed, to the point I just don't trust them.

I don't mind working with them all the time, In fact I carry tools everywhere I go, but I need more dependable stopping power.

In short if the Windwood pads don't stop me I'm just don't have much hope..

Actually I add a pair of the top brakes like this and from there the cable pull is a little better (the pull far more cable than the STI's)









The pads are set to hit absolutely tangent to the rim in the Horizontal plane, the folcrum of the arms is as good as is going to get, as little toe-in as possible before the start to squill, so the pads don't drag on the rim, but they also stop you (well as much as possible)

I think also the problem is that the brake studs are flexing (specially at the forks with Brakes like the Froglegs or neo retro's), so if I'm going to go as far as install a brake booster (aka Diminish mud clearance) may as well get some High end V-brakes with a proper Cable Cam or cable pull for the STI's..

two More options..

The IBIS "Love Unit" Release in 1994 for tandem usage, today Impossible to find i guess.. (Use to have a few of those at my shop in Colombia many years ago and never grab one :madman: ) maybe I can make some kind of "Bowen box" To replicate the effect since is basically compose of two concentric circles (no Nautilus cams or Lobes) of different diameters








Sorry for the super small pictures

And a Linear "Cam" made by *Side track call BPB* that works far better than the inefficient "travel agent" from QBP


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Are you fairly new to CX bikes? If so, they don't stop nearly as well as a MTB. The breaks aren't necessarily weak, it's that there's a much smaller contact patch between the ground and the tire.

Also, when riding on the hoods, there's very little leverage on the brake lever. If you want to stop you really need to ride in the drops.

If you're a veteran to CX bikes, the above is true, but it's probably not your issue.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

laffeaux said:


> Are you fairly new to CX bikes? If so, they don't stop nearly as well as a MTB. The breaks aren't necessarily weak, it's that there's a much smaller contact patch between the ground and the tire.
> 
> Also, when riding on the hoods, there's very little leverage on the brake lever. If you want to stop you really need to ride in the drops.
> 
> If you're a veteran to CX bikes, the above is true, but it's probably not your issue.


Well senor laffeaux I think you hit the nail right in the head...

Even if I grow up in Colombia, I'm being riding Mountain bikes since 1983 (I did ride on a wood velodrome with the god of speed francesco Moser) but never really got into road bikes (My IBIS Tandem was my road bike), much less proper Cyclocross, even if many of the races i compete have long step running climbs and mud pits.

I'm also well aware of the traction restriction of the smaller contact patch , then in real life (not racing, but riding on the road, street or single track) you need to be able to come to a stop (not just a slow down) before you hit something or somebody..

So yes maybe I'm looking for a Cyclocross/MTB Hybrid, or at least a bike with similar braking capabilitys as any of my mountain bikes from 20 years ago, I don't think that is asking to much don't you think...

I'm 6.2" 220 with about 8 of pro level MTB racing (well in sur american speeds at least) if that make any difference.


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## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

*For the love of God, please do not use Paul Crosstops!*



patineto said:


> Well senor laffeaux I think you hit the nail right in the head...
> 
> Even if I grow up in Colombia, I'm being riding Mountain bikes since 1983 (I did ride on a wood velodrome with the god of speed francesco Moser) but never really got into road bikes (My IBIS Tandem was my road bike), much less proper Cyclocross, even if many of the races i compete have long step running climbs and mud pits.
> 
> ...


Ricardo,

PLEASE do not use Paul Crosstops on any of your bikes. A number of years back I was following Adam Hunt down a series of fast switchbacks in Annadale up in Santa Rosa. I came around one of the turns to see his bike tumbling in one direction and Adam flying Superman style about 5 feet above the ground. A nice fat rock stopped his momentum when he smashed into it with his head (luckily covered by a helmet at the time) about 10 feet later.

After he woke from the concusion, got his memory back, got airlifted to the emergency room via helicopter and had a spinal tap but sometime before he had to fork out over $3000 in medical bills, he got a chance to look over his bike.

The Paul Crosstop on the front wheel had broken, the "crosstop" portion of the brake dropped into the knobbies of his tires and stopped the momentum of the bike (although unfortunately not he) cold. You break a normal cantilever or v brake and this type of thing could never happen.

Adam worked at Paul Components for a time and so felt comfortable calling up Paul and telling him about his crash, etc. It was about that time that the brakes ceased to be manufactured.

Years later when Adam sold a bunch of his vintage items to Jeff Archer at First Flight Bikes, he passed along the Crosstop brakes as well but only under the premise that Jeff never use them on a bike that actually got ridden.

Just a heads up.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

datasurfer said:


> Ricardo,
> 
> PLEASE do not use Paul Crosstops on any of your bikes. A number of years back I was following Adam Hunt down a series of fast switchbacks in Annadale up in Santa Rosa. I came around one of the turns to see his bike tumbling in one direction and Adam flying Superman style about 5 feet above the ground. A nice fat rock stopped his momentum when he smashed into it with his head (luckily covered by a helmet at the time) about 10 feet later.
> 
> ...


Thanks senor...

You are right as usual...

I'm being looking at the construction method of the three different brakes and is kind of scary to relay on a "single mast" with so much torsionally loads, do to the way the forces go into the "Pivotal" side of the brakes (were the rocker is) mine will be a "Fork" type (I think mine will be a double sided brake arm with the rocker sandwich in the center and not the other way around.)

I better ask Adam about them, before I hack a set of my own..

I think I found some great donor parts for the prototype...

Anodize and in many different sizes already..









I have acess to tons of this (broken ones) thanks to my friends at mountain hardware and in the Industry.









Ps: How come you and adam did not go to the American cyclery party last night...!?!?

I was sure you will be friend with Henry, Tyson and all this guys..

For me was kind of fun to say to all this guys I work with for so long, but as usual was kind of boring crowd full of "Fixie" girls and boys and their tight bluejeans.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I woudn't be too concerned about breaking a Crosstop and I question whether that small peice of alluminum bouncing off the knobbies of a tire would actually send you over the bars if you traveling that fast. I used to ride the IRD's a lot, they were a wonderful brake if set up right. You won't need to worry about power as they are more powerful than any canti that I have ever ridden but you will need to worry about seatstay flex and the tire patch, in reality that will be the limitting factor. I set up a set on my uncles Santana Triple and unless it was a very long downhill you never needed any more break.


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## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

AKamp said:


> I woudn't be too concerned about breaking a Crosstop and I question whether that small peice of alluminum bouncing off the knobbies of a tire would actually send you over the bars if you traveling that fast. I used to ride the IRD's a lot, they were a wonderful brake if set up right. You won't need to worry about power as they are more powerful than any canti that I have ever ridden but you will need to worry about seatstay flex and the tire patch, in reality that will be the limitting factor. I set up a set on my uncles Santana Triple and unless it was a very long downhill you never needed any more break.


Well,

Seeing is believing. The crosstop can break and can fall into the grooves between the knobbies on the right tire even at speed. Although it is plausible that the incident could be considered a freak accident I for one am not going to take the chance and ride using one while there are many viable alternative designs available, many listed above. When one witnesses an incident like this, I feel it is one's duty to inform other's where a safety issue exists. Y'all can do whatever you like...I'm not your mother. just make sure you have good medical insurance whilst doing it.

Where we do agree, however, is that IRD brakes are astouding.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

datasurfer said:


> Well,
> 
> Seeing is believing. The crosstop can break and can fall into the grooves between the knobbies on the right tire even at speed. Although it is plausible that the incident could be considered a freak accident I for one am not going to take the chance and ride using one while there are many viable alternative designs available, many listed above. When one witnesses an incident like this, I feel it is one's duty to inform other's where a safety issue exists. Y'all can do whatever you like...I'm not your mother. just make sure you have good medical insurance whilst doing it.


While I'm sure it was a bad event, I don't think that it's any worse than any cantilever design. On almost any cantilever brake, if the cable running from the lever to the cable hanger where to break, the straddle cable will drop onto the knobby tire and become an instant stopping device, resulting in the same sort of endo crash.

So while I agree that the Paul's brake is not the best design, I don't see it being any more dangerous than a cantilever brake.


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