# I need a little help please



## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Hello I'm SkUG *waves*
I've decided that its time for a new light
First i looked at the HID range and was immediately put off by the price tag and short run times of 3 - 4 hours...
So i looked at halogen lighting - again the price put me off, i know i thought to myself i can build a halogen lamp myself!
I was going to make my own housing but i found an old lamp with a suitable housing (aluminium ideal for getting the heat out), the plan was to have two of these each, each switched, one for main beam and one for flood, but whilst i was looking for a bulb with a beam between 4-10 degrees i accidentally discovered LED emitters and my eyes instantly lit up!
More compact, brighter and alot more energy efficient!
My decision was made, LED emitters are the future of lighting, so lets get in there!
(i have a metal working lathe/most tools and i can confidently manufacture my light!)

Ideally my light should include the following features
1. At least 2 LED emitters ideally 3 or 4
2. Angle of beam, (ideally i'd like 2 spots and one wide beam - or 1 spot and 1 beam on each side of the handlebars)
3. 5-8 hours runtime (ideally as I've no where to charge my light at work!)
4. Dimmable (for use on and off road)
5. the ability to switch off 1 or 2 LEDs (mostly to save power but not essential, i would like this feature)
6. waterproof (as I'm in the UK, not renowned for its sunny weather)

Reading quite alot of this forum I've come to the conclusion that I'm quite confused 
So could you guys (and gals - hello there ) help me out with the following questions?
*1. Emitters *
What is the brightest available emitter available to buy today? (I've seen the triple rebels but i don't see any suitable lenses at present) - will probably purchase some stars (as they look easier to work with, are they now isolated?) from www.dealextreme.com as they have free postage (unless you can suggest a cheaper alternative?)
*2. Lenses *
Looking at lots of pictures /reading the forum i've decided that anything between 4-6 degrees will probably be "OK" for the spot, and about 10-15 degree for the flood, where can i get said lenses? (dealextreme don't appear to have any information about the optics/collimators on there! - i may just end up buying 1 of each to work out whats what and leave a review for them! unless you guys know better?)
*3. Battery / runtime *
now this is where my confusion begins! if i understand this correctly (and i probably don't) on average each emitter uses approx 3.7v? 
3 emitters = 11.1v? but the buckpuckthingywhatisit uses 2v? so i'll need a minimum of 13.1v? no?
4 emitters = 14.8v? +2v? so I'll need a 16.8v battery? correct? or have i misunderstood something?
now if I've understood all that correctly, and the emitters are all running on 1ma (which they probably won't be) and i want to run them for 5 hours i'll need a battery with 5ah rating?
Assuming I've got all the above workings out right (please tell me my brain works!) where can i get a battery pack that doesnt cost the earth?! 
*4. Dimming *
About the dimmable buckpucksthingies that are available on the market, do they have the potentiometer built in? Or do i need to buy one and wire it to the buckpuckthingy?
Where can i get a dimming buckpuckthingy that will run the above (3 or 4 emitters @ upto 20v)? 
Have i read right that they do a boost buckpuckthingy that will allow you to use lower voltages? the harder i think the more confused i become 
*5. Switches*
Now this is something I've not seen done on here yet (maybe i'm going blind?) but i'd like to be able to switch either 1 or 2 of the emitters off to save battery time, assuming i'm running at least 3 emitters - any ideas, i was thinking of running a "common" and switches for each emitter, but i'm uncertain if the buckpuckthingy will allow me to do this plus I've forgotten how all this electronics works! 
*6. Waterproofing *
basically waterproof connections from battery to head, whats best? (oh and maybe the potentiometer depending how it fits?)

When the lights are all up and running i'll post a "how to" tutorial with beam shots and the lot 
Many thanks in advance!
SkUG


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi Skug.and welcome to the madhouse.
This will be an interesting thread to watch as it will be the perfect light .

1/ the brightest emmitters at the mo are the cree R2 but will probably change soon.

2/ Yes you are on the case with optics check out the group buys over at candlepowerforums some good deals there.

3/batteries lots of options too many to list but the favorite seems to be Li Ion for weight and power . again there is lots of info here and on CPF just have fun searching.

4/ dimming is very usefull and the cream seem to be from taskled / at the top down to DX at the lower price bracket. 

5/ & 6 there has been much discusion about switches and connectors and no one has found the perfect set up yet so still searching . 
switching individual leds on and off has not arrived yet unless each led has its own driver and switching . and is not really needed with the controlability of leds switching one off does not really achieve any advantage on runtimes . just dim the lot .

Looking forward to seeing your ideas and good luck.
Trout


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## Hack On Wheels (Apr 29, 2006)

Switch options: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=382077

Hope this helps!


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## heatstroke (Jul 1, 2003)

on the battery. if using a buck : 
then min voltage = (Y * Vf ) + 2V 
where Y = number of series Leds
Vf = forward Volage at current you want to run ( R2&Q5 ~ 3.4 V @ 800ma, ~3.5V at 1000mA)

note I've seen some CPF quotes of 3.7-4.0 V for the R2 at 1000mA. But I have built 5 R2 kits now from Cutters and all have been consistent at 3.5 - 3.55Vf at 1000 mA


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Cheers!


troutie-mtb said:


> 1/ the brightest emmitters at the mo are the cree R2 but will probably change soon.


Do you have a link to an R2 emitter? maybe i'm looking in the wrong place as i can't seem to find an R2 (except in a flash light - which appears to be a rebel (and i can't find any lenses for those either!))


troutie-mtb said:


> 2/ Yes you are on the case with optics check out the group buys over at candlepowerforums some good deals there.


Woo! 



troutie-mtb said:


> 3/batteries lots of options too many to list but the favorite seems to be Li Ion for weight and power . again there is lots of info here and on CPF just have fun searching.


I was looking at remote control helicopter batteries (14.8v and nice and compact), but i became confused between 5000mah, now is that the same as 5ah? - can you refresh my memory? - i'm having a dull moment 



troutie-mtb said:


> 4/ dimming is very usefull and the cream seem to be from taskled / at the top down to DX at the lower price bracket.
> 
> 5/ & 6 there has been much discusion about switches and connectors and no one has found the perfect set up yet so still searching .
> switching individual leds on and off has not arrived yet unless each led has its own driver and switching . and is not really needed with the controlability of leds switching one off does not really achieve any advantage on runtimes . just dim the lot .
> ...


Do you have any links for the dimmables buck'?
Surely using 2 emitters is going to use twice as much energy as using 1 emitter?
Being able to switch one off would double the runtime?
Reading up on the buck' it seems that you can run 1, 2, 3, 4 and upto 5 emitters using one buck' - now to me, that says you can turn one or two emitters off? (ok so they may have not meant by using a switch - but thats how i read it )

Thank you for all for your prompt helpful replies!


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Hack On Wheels said:


> Switch options: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=382077
> 
> Hope this helps!


Thank you, i don't see any mention of being able to switch one or two LED's off, I'll post my queries in that thread though 

Thank you for all for your prompt helpful replies!


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

heatstroke said:


> on the battery. if using a buck :
> then min voltage = (Y * Vf ) + 2V
> where Y = number of series Leds
> Vf = forward Volage at current you want to run ( R2&Q5 ~ 3.4 V @ 800ma, ~3.5V at 1000mA)
> ...


Ahah - thats made it alot clearer, excuse my ignorance but how would i find out the Vf?

Thank you for all for your prompt helpful replies!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Skug

optics here 
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=175502
He is also selling Q5 leds which are just down from R2

allsorts of drivers here http://taskled.com/

R2 here but are in short supply http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=12&pg=2

switching leds in and out is not good read this 
taskled 
Administrator
Full Member

Posts: 138

Re: Alternating the numbers of LED's under current? 
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 07:30:38 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Gunnar on October 21, 2007, 02:26:12 PM
Is it possible to connect more (up to 6 right?) or disconnect leds from the loop of leds when running the driver?

/Gunnar

The danger is that if the load is removed, the driver will see no load and try to regulate. When it does that it raises the output voltage to close to the input voltage. So, say you have 24V of input voltage, now you switch to 3 LEDs - for a moment there is no load, the output voltage rises to 24V (charging the output capacitors to 24V), the 3 LEDs finally switch in and are zapped with 24V from the output capacitors while the driver goes back into regulation with a good chance of having destroyed one or more LEDs.

With current regulated LED drivers NEVER disconnect/reconnect the LEDs while the driver is powered up. Even though the driver will often not be damaged - the LEDs are what will likely be destroyed or at least damaged.

cheers,
george.

Logged

Gunnar 
Newbie

Posts: 8

Re: Alternating the numbers of LED's under current? 
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 12:56:26 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My idea was to use a connector (like a DC-connector or other connector with an normally closed contact) that automatically keeps the remaining loop closed when the extra 3 LEDs disconnects, so the load always will be minimum 3 LEDs under power.
But do you mean that the output voltage rises anyway?

Regards 
Gunnar

Edit: clarifying

« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 01:50:16 AM by Gunnar » Logged

taskled 
Administrator
Full Member

Posts: 138

Re: Alternating the numbers of LED's under current? 
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 09:24:43 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Gunnar on October 22, 2007, 12:56:26 AM
My idea was to use a connector (like a DC-connector or other connector with an normally closed contact) that automatically keeps the remaining loop closed when the extra 3 LEDs disconnects, so the load always will be minimum 3 LEDs under power.
But do you mean that the output voltage rises anyway?

Regards 
Gunnar

Edit: clarifying

If you have say 5 LEDs connected and running at some current. Say, the Vf is at 3.5V per LED at the current it is running at. You have 3.5 x 5 = 17.5V across the LEDs. Now you disconnect 3 LEDs and have 2 LEDs (they would have a Vf of 7V).

For a short period of time the driver will have 17.5V across the output capacitors and that will appear across the 2 remaining LEDs until the capacitor discharges and the voltage drops to 7V (new current regulation Vf).

That short 17.5-7 = 10.5V 'spike' is not a good thing for the LEDs. Quickly or over time they will be damaged. One possible solution would be to wired a Zener (reverse biased) across the remaining LEDs (say 4.1V x # of LEDs, 1W rated), so that if the voltage goes above 4.1V x 2 (or 3) then the Zener breaks down and conducts rather than the spike going through the LED.

Again, as I wrote before, you don't want to change the number of LEDs while a driver is powered up unless you somehow protect the LEDs from possible voltage spikes.

cheers,
george.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtLuke 
One question, is it better to run fewer LED's at a higher rating or more at a lower rating?

More led's at lower curent i.e.:
3x Q4 3,20V @ 350mA => 305 lum => 3,36W
1x Q4 3,75V @ 1000mA => 235 lum => 3,75w


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

I'm on the other side of the world from Auz... wonder what the postage is like to the UK?
maybe if there is an off between the switching - 1 off 2 off 3 for example?


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## Funkster-B (Feb 25, 2008)

*JFET Current limiter?*

'lo all,

SkUG and I were discussing this on another forum a while ago, makes sense for me to reply here though )

If you wanted to switch LEDs off by short-circuiting them while the bucking converter is running, how about protecting the remaining diodes with a series current limiter set just slightly above the current setting of the buck? That way you wouldn't damage your expensive emitters, and the output voltage would gently decay until the current limiter was back to zero ohms and everything was dandy.

Should be do-able with a big JFET and a bit of thought...

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_5/15.html

?

--
Olly


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## redbeans (Dec 15, 2005)

Funkster, 

Would you want to do that even if you can? If 4 LEDs are going to be brighter at half power than 2 LEDs at full power, why would you want to switch off individual LEDs instead of dimming them all? (Or three at two thirds versus 2 at full, or three at one third versus one at full, etc.)

Troutie sold me with this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtLuke
One question, is it better to run fewer LED's at a higher rating or more at a lower rating?

More led's at lower curent i.e.:
3x Q4 3,20V @ 350mA => 305 lum => 3,36W
1x Q4 3,75V @ 1000mA => 235 lum => 3,75w


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

The only time you might want to switch out individual LEDs is to create a different beam pattern(you may want to switch from spot to flood...see my MTB light linked below).
Instead of switching off you can limit the current by adding a series resistor.
I run 4 LEDs in two strings. The "wide" string has a series resistor(around 5 ohm) that can be shorted out with a switch. When shorted all 4 LEDs run at 500mA, with the resistor in they run something like 200/800mA.
The driver is not seeing a significant change in load during the switchover...Its still pumping 1A into around 7V.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

znomit said:


> The only time you might want to switch out individual LEDs is to create a different beam pattern(you may want to switch from spot to flood...see my MTB light linked below).
> Instead of switching off you can limit the current by adding a series resistor.
> I run 4 LEDs in two strings. The "wide" string has a series resistor(around 5 ohm) that can be shorted out with a switch. When shorted all 4 LEDs run at 500mA, with the resistor in they run something like 200/800mA.
> The driver is not seeing a significant change in load during the switchover...Its still pumping 1A into around 7V.


now that sounds sensible -i'll have a read tomorrow (its 1am here *yawn*) g'nite!
how about something like this maybe?


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

SkUG said:


> now that sounds sensible -i'll have a read tomorrow (its 1am here *yawn*) g'nite!
> how about something like this maybe?


No like this


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

I picked up a prewired buckpuck from LEDsupply. I couldn't find a small potentiometer anywhere. You can add a "P" to any of the driver part number that have the dimmer option built in and they will send it prewired.


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## eddielee70 (Dec 28, 2006)

if you not want to bother, buy from the man who taught us all.

http://bikeled.org/

man that is cheap, archeclot is charging $190 including shipping for his setup that cost $150 in parts. He is making less then minimum wage on labor. If I didn't build my own lights, I would buy . with 4 hour light at max power and 20 hour on low. that would be much better setup. $150 in parts sell for $180 plus shipping. archeclot has only 3 for sale. so buy them fast.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

eddielee70 said:


> if you not want to bother, buy from the man who taught us all.
> 
> http://bikeled.org/
> 
> man that is cheap, archeclot is charging $190 including shipping for his setup that cost $150 in parts. He is making less then minimum wage on labor. If I didn't build my own lights, I would buy . with 4 hour light at max power and 20 hour on low. that would be much better setup. $150 in parts sell for $180 plus shipping. archeclot has only 3 for sale. so buy them fast.


I've worked it out - my light will cost about £50 including batteries and charger (as i can get the batteries and charger at trade price)... thats about US$100

p.s. i just noticed i missed out the common on my diagram (doh)


znomit said:


> No like this


your diagram shows all 4 emitters as on (just two at a lower output), I want to turn them OFF (remove them from the circuit) not lower the output... 
With the dimmable buck' you should be able to adjust the brightness, regardless of 2 3 or 4 emitters?


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

SkUG said:


> With the dimmable buck' you should be able to adjust the brightness, regardless of 2 3 or 4 emitters?


Yes. I happen to be running 3.


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## geoliquid (Dec 20, 2007)

hello,
is there any reason you couldn't run two pucks wired in parrallel to the batteries. puck1 controlling led1and led2, puck2 controlling led3 and led4. have a switch before each puck.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Yes you could run the two buck pucks idea but it's not cheap and requires more space. Just dim them all together.


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## geoliquid (Dec 20, 2007)

additional puck is only $13.99
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021-d-n-1000.php
or $14.99 wired
http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php

also with two pucks, I can also power 4 leds with one 14.4v batterypack


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

.40AET said:


> Yes. I happen to be running 3.


you've taken that out of context, this does not help :madman:


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

geoliquid said:


> hello,
> is there any reason you couldn't run two pucks wired in parrallel to the batteries. puck1 controlling led1and led2, puck2 controlling led3 and led4. have a switch before each puck.


a) price b) space c) too easy :nono:


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Skug a lot of pucks wont stand up to having the LEDs disconnected, even momentarily...:madmax: 
And switching from three LEDs to one, well that one LED gets 11V. :madmax: 

Check the datasheet for whatever one you are using. 
Let us know how you get on with your build, who knows, it just might work. :thumbsup:


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Skug.
Why take a simple and reliable bike light and make it complicated despite 
all the advise that it is not a good idea. 
just make 2 smaller lights and a Y lead and there you have the flexibility your after.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

znomit said:


> Skug a lot of pucks wont stand up to having the LEDs disconnected, even momentarily...:madmax:
> And switching from three LEDs to one, well that one LED gets 11V. :madmax:


I think your misunderstanding what im aiming to do...
the emitters will be removed from the circuit, the buck will only see one emitter and will regulate it as it would normally if there where only one fitted, make sense?
To do this power will have to be switched off momentarily
Reading the datasheets (unless i've read something horribly wrong) i believe this is possible

edit : sorry there was an extra "not" in there - should make mroe sense now!


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> Skug.
> Why take a simple and reliable bike light and make it complicated despite
> all the advise that it is not a good idea.
> just make 2 smaller lights and a Y lead and there you have the flexibility your after.


Why give up so easily?
I more than likely will be having two smaller lights, but i want a main beam and a flood on each side of the handlebars, switchable like the high and low beams on a car, its not impossible


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Can someone please explain the the difference between 5000mah and 5ah? 
Thank you

edit : this wasn't supposed to be here, but at the end of the thread... stupid "post reply" button on the wrong page....


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*anythings possible, given enough time or money*



SkUG said:


> Why give up so easily?
> I more than likely will be having two smaller lights, but i want a main beam and a flood on each side of the handlebars, switchable like the high and low beams on a car, its not impossible


Get two cutter PCBs for a triple or quad or seperate LEDs.
Then get a narrow and medium optic optic or the Rocket3-S/Rocket3-M or a narrow/wide lenses from Dealextreme. For a wide/flood on each bar, you'll need separate lenses so go with a combination of lenses of your choice.

One bflex/nflex/maxflex driver each in of the heads and a Y cable to the battery.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

notaknob said:


> Get two cutter PCBs for a triple or quad or seperate LEDs.
> Then get a narrow and medium optic optic or the Rocket3-S/Rocket3-M or a narrow/wide lenses from Dealextreme. For a wide/flood on each bar, you'll need separate lenses so go with a combination of lenses of your choice.
> 
> One bflex/nflex/maxflex driver each in of the heads and a Y cable to the battery.


i shall be using narrow and wide beams (as mentioned in the first section of the first post) but thats still using two buck' and therefore increasing manufacturing costs. I understood all of that upto "blfex/nflex/maxflex,


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

5000mAh = 5Ah
m means mili = 1/1000


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## geoliquid (Dec 20, 2007)

SkUG said:


> Why give up so easily?
> I more than likely will be having two smaller lights, but i want a main beam and a flood on each side of the handlebars, switchable like the high and low beams on a car, its not impossible


I think this would work. I'm picturing a three position toggle switch with the center position as off, up position as high and down position as low. That way you can't switch from high (4 leds) to low (2 leds) by completely turning off the circuit. the puck would be fine. :thumbsup: But i could be wrong and someone please correct me if I am.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Dominik.M said:


> 5000mAh = 5Ah
> m means mili = 1/1000


so 5000mah is how many minutes hours at 1 amp?


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

geoliquid said:


> I think this would work. I'm picturing a three position toggle switch with the center position as off, up position as high and down position as low. That way you can't switch from high (4 leds) to low (2 leds) by completely turning off the circuit. the puck would be fine. :thumbsup: But i could be wrong and someone please correct me if I am.


:thumbsup: Now i'm glad you can see what i'm trying to do (was starting to think i was going insane!), but i think that i possibly may have missed a "common" wire out? (I've not done electronics since i was about 12,i'm 27 next month!) any suggestions / problems with my design?


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

empty


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

Depends on voltage of the battery pack and driver efficiency.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Dominik.M said:


> Depends on voltage of the battery pack and driver efficiency.


could you give me an example?


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Dominik.M said:


> empty


i wish there was a delete option on this forum... i keep replying in the wrong place too! :madman:


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

3,7V * 5Ah = 18,5 Wh
7,2V * 5Ah = 36,9 Wh
14,4 * 5Ah = 72,0 Wh

Now i.e you want to power up one led... typical Vf for 1A is about 3,9-4,0V so :
1A * 4,0V = 4W

Efficiency of a good driver is about 85-90% so :
4W / 85% = 4,7W 

Then : 
18,5 Wh / 4,7W = 3,93 h
36,9 Wh / 4,7W = 7,85 h
...


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Dominik.M said:


> 3,7V * 5Ah = 18,5 Wh
> 7,2V * 5Ah = 36,9 Wh
> 14,4 * 5Ah = 72,0 Wh
> 
> ...


 and the 5000mah? - i kinda meant 5000mah compared to the 5ah
but thats still useful information


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Skug . You are confused we are confused . 
you want full beam and low beam , flood and spot . 

what notaknob is saying is 
2 lights one flood and one spot put either a Bflex / Nflex or a Maxflex in each light 
all these drivers are programable for high / low output of your choice or even 5 different outputs stepping from high to low , so highly tunable to your wants very simple set up in in each light with the minimum of fuss.
someone else has done all the hard work designing the driver ( in this case George from Taskled ) 

so you dont need complicated wiring just a power in and 1 switch for each light head , switch on / full beam and low beam all controled from 1 small push button .

bike lights have a hard time with vibration and the weather so keep it simple then less to go wrong.


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

Goo to the primary school, there somebody will tell you what is the difference between 1000mm and 1m. :


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Dominik.M said:


> Goo to the primary school, there somebody will tell you what is the difference between 1000mm and 1m. :


Ahh blow it out your exhaust :bluefrown: come on my brains having a dull moment! 
1m = 100,000mm? thefore 1000mm = 10th of the runtime? (I mean that's what i originally asked...)
all i have to say is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

SkUG said:


> *3. Battery / runtime *
> now this is where my confusion begins! if i understand this correctly (and i probably don't) on average each emitter uses approx 3.7v?
> 3 emitters = 11.1v? but the buckpuckthingywhatisit uses 2v? so i'll need a minimum of 13.1v? no?
> 4 emitters = 14.8v? +2v? so I'll need a 16.8v battery? correct? or have i misunderstood something?
> ...


To go back to Skug interesting questions: where to find good deals on battery packs - in Europe?
thanks
fab


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> Skug . You are confused we are confused .
> you want full beam and low beam , flood and spot .


I did say LIKE high and low beam - the idea was to show that it is switchable... nevermind... 
The fact there is a potentiometer in part of the circuitry this means the beam is adjustable so you have the option to dim / brighten the beam (is no one paying attention?)


troutie-mtb said:


> what notaknob is saying is
> 2 lights one flood and one spot put either a Bflex / Nflex or a Maxflex in each light
> all these drivers are programable for high / low output of your choice or even 5 different outputs stepping from high to low , so highly tunable to your wants very simple set up in in each light with the minimum of fuss.
> someone else has done all the hard work designing the driver ( in this case George from Taskled )
> ...


Thank you for explaining, i really wish people would provide a link to the products they are waffling on about!

There is no complicated wiring... just a dimmable buck and a switch!


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Ausable said:


> To go back to Skug interesting questions: where to find good deals on battery packs - in Europe?
> thanks
> fab


Hi, you can use camcorder batteries solders I bought the mine here

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

MSXTR 
thanks for the link, why everything bike-related is cheaper in germany!
Which Led configuration are you running with this battery and what's the run time?
fab


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Ausable said:


> MSXTR
> thanks for the link, why everything bike-related is cheaper in germany!
> Which Led configuration are you running with this battery and what's the run time?
> fab


Hi, I use the batery and the charger of the link, really this battery don't are of 5500 ma how the said, it's of 6000 mah, I use this battery with my triple seoul P4 U-bin kaidomain flashlight DIY modified :idea: :smilewinkgrin: and the maxflex circuit, look




























Runtime? hummmmmm, I don't know, normally I only ride about 2 hour by the night and work perfectly.

By the way, I have found another ebay german shop still more cheap, :madman: here

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

Skug, here's a lesson on units.

The basic unit of current is an amp, abbreviated "A".

The metric system uses these common prefixes to further expand upon the basic units:

deci "d" mean 1/10, one-tenth;
centi "c" means 1/100, one-hundredth;
milli "m" means 1/1000, one-thousandth;
and so on..

therefore, when referring to amps "A":

one-tenth of an amp = 1 deciamp (0.1A = 1dA)
one-hundredth of an amp = 1 centiamp (0.01A = 1cA)
one-thousandth of an amp = 1 milliamp (0.001A = 1mA)

or,

10 deciamps = 1 amp (10dA = 1A)
100 centiamps = 1 amp (100cA = 1A)
1000 milliamps = 1 amp (1000mA = 1A)

I've never heard of anyone using the unit of deciamp or centiamp though, and people might look at you really funny if you did, but it wouldn't _technically_ be incorrect. Hehe, I actually think I might start using terms like cA and µA to talk about my batteries - just to see how confused I can make people... or 4.4E-3Ah.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

joraff said:


> Skug, here's a lesson on units.
> - - -
> 10 deciamps = 1 amp (10dA = 1A)
> 100 centiamps = 1 amp (100cA = 1A)
> 1000 milliamps = 1 amp (1000mA = 1A)


Thank you for taking the time to refresh my memory 
Why call a mA a thousandth? ahh now you can see why I'm confused!
So let me get this straight 5500mAh = 5.5aAh? or have i lost my marbles? :crazy:

My project is a little delayed due to my untidy workshop / my car needing some serious metal worm attention! 
Plus i can't find any r2's anywhere? 
Does anyone have a comparison datasheet on the brightness of the emitters (i may compromise) ? 
Thanks again

SkUG :yawn: its 2am!


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

The difference between a Q5 and a R2 on paper is only about a 7% output difference - something that your eye would most likely never be able to tell. Depending on the batch of Q5's you get, however, the forward voltage of the die might be higher than anticipated, thus requiring more juice from your battery when driven at a constant current. The R2's so far seem to have normal, if not lower than normal Rf (forward voltage).

Yeah R2's are hard to find now! Cutter is sold out, and the group buys in cpf are all closed. I just bought some Q5's from brum and I'm sure they'll do just fine for me. I wouldn't recommend buying Q5's from dealextreme, as it seems to be a lottery as to whether you get a good emitter. Some of their Q5's seem to be barely better than an older P4 bin.

brum is in EU already so you could get them shipped quickly, most likely. You can buy them from him here.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

SkUG said:


> *3. Battery / runtime *
> now this is where my confusion begins! if i understand this correctly (and i probably don't) on average each emitter uses approx 3.7v?
> 3 emitters = 11.1v? but the buckpuckthingywhatisit uses 2v? so i'll need a minimum of 13.1v? no?
> 4 emitters = 14.8v? +2v? so I'll need a 16.8v battery? correct? or have i misunderstood something?
> ...


how about this for a battery?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/14-8v-4000Mah...yZ123847QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
14.8v 4000mAh 4Ah?


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## zemike (Sep 3, 2007)

SkUG said:


> how about this for a battery?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/14-8v-4000Mah...yZ123847QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 14.8v 4000mAh 4Ah?


this is overkill. Li-Poly are heavier than Li-Ion and more expensive
and you need a protection PCB for Li-Poly

check this one:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3600


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

zemike said:


> this is overkill. Li-Poly are heavier than Li-Ion and more expensive
> and you need a protection PCB for Li-Poly
> 
> check this one:
> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3600


what's the difference between li-ion and li-ploy'? besides 30g? (ie a packet of crisps or potato chips as they say in america...)
the link you gave me is $50 about £25, the one i linked to is £11 about $22 including postage...


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## zemike (Sep 3, 2007)

The difference is the presence of a "Protection PCB" which protects the pack from low discharge


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

zemike said:


> The difference is the presence of a "Protection PCB" which protects the pack from low discharge


Is that all? how much are they? i'm sure i saw a link earlier in another thread...
so i did http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=388304


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

SkUG said:


> what's the difference between li-ion and li-ploy'? besides 30g? (ie a packet of crisps or potato chips as they say in america...)
> the link you gave me is $50 about £25, the one i linked to is £11 about $22 including postage...


The Li-Poly batteries, need a special charger and one balancer for each piece of the battery, if you don't use the balancer then this batteries could explode. This batteries have a great performance, but are dangerous of handle.

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

msxtr said:


> The Li-Poly batteries, need a special charger and one balancer for each piece of the battery, if you don't use the balancer then this batteries could explode. This batteries have a great performance, but are dangerous of handle.
> 
> Greetings - Saludos
> 
> msxtr


ahh, well i'd need a charger anyways... what is a balancer? part of the charger or the battery?
Thank you for your wisdom


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

SkUG said:


> ahh, well i'd need a charger anyways... what is a balancer? part of the charger or the battery?
> 
> Thank you for your wisdom


Hi, here a balancer, this work connect to the charger

Charger










Balancer










Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

msxtr said:


> Hi, here a balancer, this work connect to the charger
> 
> Charger
> 
> ...


so its just the charger? nothing extra to add to the battery? sounds easy enough


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

SkUG said:


> so its just the charger? nothing extra to add to the battery? sounds easy enough


Hi, yes, "only" with the charger and the balacer it is enough, only you connect the batteries to the balancer and this to the charger and to work 

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

UPDATE
*1. Emitters *
Bought 5 x cree Q5 emitters (3 for handle bars - 2 for helmet light maybe/spare?) 
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394 - (i did try cutters.com.au - what a maze of a website, i gave up in the end)
mostly because they where a) in stock b) value for money and the code "BULKRATE" saved me a few quid/dollars and c)bearing in mind my old light is an 2AA krypton bulb i think i'm going to notice the difference!
*2. Lenses *
Hopefully these lenses will be suitable
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1918
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1920
i wish sellers/buyers would leave some details about products... sheesh (i shall also leave a review for these lenses on the website too! - any information you require besides the obvious beam angle etc?)
(also purchased some glass lenses / glow in the dark o-rings to help create a waterproof seal)
if they aren't suitable i'll just have to buy some more at a slightly higher price - doh!
*3. Battery / runtime *
Still need a little advice here...
I need about 5-8 hours runtime ideally, weight isn't really an issue (as i'm used to my old steel bike that weighs about the same a me, great for building muscles - got a new alloy framed bike now) but size maybe an issue, ideally i'd like something to mount either a) on the handle bars or b) on the top tube of the frame near the headset (my bike bottle is on the rear behind my seat)
*4. Dimming * & *5. Switches*
after much advice, i've decided on one main on / off switch, probably a toggle switch or something (i've got a few waterproof ones somewhere)
I Bought a 1000ma pcb buckpuck and potentiometer
http://www.luxeonstar.com/item.php?id=863&link_str=240::241::1397&partno=3021-D-E-1000
with http://www.luxeonstar.com/item.php?id=1828&link_str=240::241::1398&partno=3021HEP
attached so save all that mucking about with PCB's 
(i probably won't be running these at 1000ma all the time, more than likely the lower setting)
*6. Waterproofing *
Firstly
Optics will be held in place via the inner casing with alloy bolts(hopefully) passing all the way through the body, the thin (1mm or 2mm) outter casing will hold a flat glass lens in place to protect the optics (i do get rather muddy) with glow in the dark o-rings which will sit in a small indent in the casings
Secondly
The wiring / connections - what seems to work best?

Thank you all for your advice and helpfulness 
(if i can remember how to get CAD working (8 years ago since i last used it!) i'll post some pics up!)
p.s. is there anything you'd change in this setup? (besides brighter emitters?)


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

Looks good. Have you decided on an enclosure?


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

For your 3 LED light, you'll need at least a 13V battery. A 14.8V Li-ion with 4400mAh capacity will yield you close to 7.5 hours of runtime at 700mA, or 5.5 hours at 1000mA.

Here's a handy calculator another mtbr member wrote up that estimates battery runtime.
http://65.18.29.20/~kworster/ledcalc2.html


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

joraff said:


> Looks good. Have you decided on an enclosure?
> For your 3 LED light, you'll need at least a 13V battery. A 14.8V Li-ion with 4400mAh capacity will yield you close to 7.5 hours of runtime at 700mA, or 5.5 hours at 1000mA.
> 
> Here's a handy calculator another mtbr member wrote up that estimates battery runtime.
> http://65.18.29.20/~kworster/ledcalc2.html


I have a few ideas on the enclosure at the moment (as this is my first build) i'm not sure how big everything actually is, so i'm going to wait for everything to arrive 
i've got a few designs drawn out on paper/in my head
hopefully i'll try to keep it as easy and as cheap as possible to manufacture
Regarding the battery, thats about the voltage i'd worked out too.. (using that handy little link - thanks ) 
I was going to use a small golf cart battery (which i can get at trade prices) but its quite big and bulky, 6 inches long 2 inches wide and its only 12v - so thats out of the question.... 
i'll keep everyone updated with my progress (it may slow down shortly as its about to get busy at work and i'm gonna be knackered!)


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

Well I suppose you could use a golf cart battery if they were significantly cheaper to you, but you'll have to switch to a "boost" driver, such as a bflex or maxflex. 

But you've already ordered the buckpuck and lead-acid batteries are very very heavy compared to Li-ion, and probably not the best idea to use on a bike that could tip over and possible spill acid!

Look on ebay for Li-ion batteries from all-batteries. Most people will agree it's the best deal around for Li-ion battery packs.


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## TrekJeff (Oct 12, 2006)

14.8v 4400mah battery packs are available with chargers and water proof connectors for less than $100. You can save a couple bucks buying from thier ebay listings
Chargers are also pretty cheap through there listings

Buy them both at the same time, compare the discount in shipping to what they actually offer on thier webstie and you may come ahead a few bucks.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

update : some bits arrived

Emitters, glass lenses, glow in the dark - orings and optics anyone know if i need a holder for these? or do they just sit on the top of the emitter?
(just waiting for luxeonstar.com to send me my buck!


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

.40AET said:


> I picked up a prewired buckpuck from LEDsupply. I couldn't find a small potentiometer anywhere. You can add a "P" to any of the driver part number that have the dimmer option built in and they will send it prewired.


Thats exactly what i've ordered  Thank you (not from ledsupply but from www.luxeonstar.com)


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## TrekJeff (Oct 12, 2006)

Sk..how long did it take to get your order?


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

TrekJeff said:


> Sk..how long did it take to get your order?


ordered on the 3rd and posted on the 11th, turnt up on the 15th (I also used the discount code " BULKRATE " - watch out as this sometimes increases the price!)


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Hello, just working a few things out before I purchase some metal, (taking bit longer than anticipated) 
Is there a recommended maximum distance from the buck to the emitters? i'm thinking of moving all the electronics onto the battery pack, mostly for aesthetics
Good or bad idea?


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2008)

According to the data sheet for the buckpuck, the leads to the Leds should be as short as possible preferably 6 inches or less.


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

dweeby said:


> According to the data sheet for the buckpuck, the leads to the Leds should be as short as possible preferably 6 inches or less.


Thanks (i forgot about the data sheet! oops)


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

Hello again, some more easy questions for those who know.. 
18650 rechargeable batteries, are they the same size as AA?
If so can you answer me this - whats the difference between these two?
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12396
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12397

does the protected mean I don't have to buy a protection circuit? I'm a little confused again 

If they are indeed the same size as AA batteries i'm going to buy http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ModuleNo=10400&doy=1m5 something like that and mount the batteries buckpack, switch, pot in a little box/bag and mount it on the handlebar stem

in other news I've ordered some Aluminium - watch this space!


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## Dominik.M (Sep 21, 2007)

No they are totally different...
AA - 14500 - 14 mm diameter / 50 mm length
18650 - 18 mm diameter / 65 mm length

These protected - have already pcb protection circuit inside (overvoltage / over discharge)


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

ahh crapcakes - thanks for your prompt reply, do they make a holder for these or do i have to make my own? I don't fancy soldering batteries...


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## tamen00 (Mar 10, 2004)

18650 are not the same size as AA's, they are bigger around and longer. As far as I know, there is not a battery holder made for the 18650's... so bummer there. (If anyone knows where to get a holder, share it!!). I have seen a couple of people make holders for the batteries out of PVC pipe, but seems like a pain when you can get a premade pack for a few dollars more....

Best bet is to really get one of the packs from battery-space or allbattery. Seem to work well and not that expensive. by the time you make a 14.8v, 4000 mah battery pack from the deal extreme cells, you are looking at 40 bucks for the cells, and then the hassel and cost of building a pack, shrink wrap, wiring/etc.... for $52 you could use this one: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3600

Also, the difference between the batteries is the protection. I think that does mean you do not have to worry about overdischarge of those batteries, but I am not sure about overcharging/etc.

Once you get these lights built, post a picture of the light pattern with those optics. I am very interested in seeing what kind of pattern they put out!! Have fun!!


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

tamen00 said:


> 18650 are not the same size as AA's, they are bigger around and longer. As far as I know, there is not a battery holder made for the 18650's... so bummer there. (If anyone knows where to get a holder, share it!!). I have seen a couple of people make holders for the batteries out of PVC pipe, but seems like a pain when you can get a premade pack for a few dollars more....
> 
> Best bet is to really get one of the packs from battery-space or allbattery. Seem to work well and not that expensive. by the time you make a 14.8v, 4000 mah battery pack from the deal extreme cells, you are looking at 40 bucks for the cells, and then the hassel and cost of building a pack, shrink wrap, wiring/etc.... for $52 you could use this one: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3600
> 
> ...


The postage rates are out of this world.. $60.19! i'm in the UK


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

SkUG said:


> Hello again, some more easy questions for those who know..
> 18650 rechargeable batteries, are they the same size as AA?
> If so can you answer me this - whats the difference between these two?
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12396
> ...


SkUG, I bought 8 of these batteries and they are crap becouse the protection switches them off at 3.5 v and not 2.5 as it should be. Also there isn't a holder made for them on the planet. I also bought two of the DX chargers to charge four cells at a time.
Complete waste of money.


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

SkUG said:


> The postage rates are out of this world.. $60.19! i'm in the UK


SkUG. I am also in th UK that's Why I bought the crap batteries from DX. But I have now found that All Battery.com have an ebay shop that they don't make easy to find and the postage is about £7 to the UK but £50 postage on the main site for the same battery.
I'll try and post a link if I can work out how to do it. They changed the name to "All Battery Centre" for ebay. 
I am going to put in an order .


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

dweeby said:



> SkUG, I bought 8 of these batteries and they are crap becouse the protection switches them off at 3.5 v and not 2.5 as it should be. Also there isn't a holder made for them on the planet. I also bought two of the DX chargers to charge four cells at a time.
> Complete waste of money.


I wasn't planning on buying them from DX unless i had to (hopefully I should be able to get these at work - i'd prefer a premade pack - which i know I can't get at work) I just wanted to make sure i understood the workings of "protected" and "non protected" - alternatively I've just found 16 NiMH 1600mAh AA batteries that i'd forgotten all about and charger too that I bought for my remote control car, bit bulky but I'm sure I can cobble something together to get me going before I fork out loadsa cash for batteries
Thanks for your input :thumbsup:


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## SkUG (Feb 19, 2008)

ahh sounds good, i think i just found them http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=330180684713&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014


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## joraff (Feb 15, 2007)

SkUG said:


> ahh sounds good, i think i just found them http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=330180684713&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014


Good batteries there... I've been using two of those exact packs pretty heavily for the past 2 months without any issue.

(if ebay link goes dead, I'm talking about TENERGY 14.8V 4400mAh 4s2p 18650 packs)


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

That's the ones.


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