# Which hardtail? Looking for a complete or…



## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

Hey guys. I’m interested in the Canfield nimble 9 and at $4,000 it’s at the top of my price range. Not knowing all the other quality brands out there, before making my purchase I was wondering what else you all recommend? Anything better in terms of components? Looking for a mid travel hard tail 1x12.


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## scoon (Aug 26, 2005)

Take a look at Esker Cycles - Mountain Bikes Built for the Wild I had a Hayduke which was amazing. If you are looking for a 29er, check out their Japhy.


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

Love my Nimble 9, had it about 3 months. Also have a Vassago VerHauen, also a great bike but more XC and has the ability to run 29 x2.8. Both have sliders. Sizing though is completely different, on a XL Nimble and a L Vassago. Running the Nimble with 160mm fork and Vassago with a 140mm. If I could only keep one of them, it would be the Vassago due to versatility.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

what, exactly, do you like about the N9? 
150mm fork
shallow BB drop ("high bottom bracket")
modern angles and dimensions
_short_ chainstays

people will recommend the Kona Honzo, but it's quite a bit more in the LLS end of the spectrum. might not feel nearly as "nimble."

RSD Middle Child is pretty close!


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Have you ridden a hardtail with a seat tube that steep before? The N9 is 78+ degrees when sagged. For that reason it is not an all day bike for me. It was a cool bike, but I ultimately sold it for that reason. It may not be a problem for you, but if you're not sure, try and ride something similar first. It weights your hands heavily and for me caused wrist pain and back weirdness. An armchair quarterback on here said I just need to use taller bars...he was wrong. I like the Japhy recommendation.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

BadgerOne said:


> Have you ridden a hardtail with a seat tube that steep before? The N9 is 78+ degrees when sagged. For that reason it is not an all day bike for me. It was a cool bike, but I ultimately sold it for that reason.


You aren't alone I couldn't ride a HT with a STA that steep.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

TheWitness34 said:


> Anything better in terms of components? Looking for a mid travel hard tail 1x12.


There are a ton of great HTs out there at the moment. So many in fact it can be hard to choose. You'd have to give us a lot more info before we can make any useful recommendations though.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

replied below


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

BadgerOne said:


> Have you ridden a hardtail with a seat tube that steep before? The N9 is 78+ degrees when sagged. For that reason it is not an all day bike for me. It was a cool bike, but I ultimately sold it for that reason. It may not be a problem for you, but if you're not sure, try and ride something similar first. It weights your hands heavily and for me caused wrist pain and back weirdness. An armchair quarterback on here said I just need to use taller bars...he was wrong. I like the Japhy recommendation.


I have had zero issues with the seat angle myself, zero weight on my hands. Now if I went with their size recommendation then probably would have an issue. That is why ETT is more important to me then Reach. I have done up to 5 hours on the Nimble and is actually the only bike I have had in years that does not make my hands, back or neck sore during a ride. I like the higher BB, short chain stays, but wish I could run bigger tires then a 2.5 in the rear. Next frame will be a RSD Middlechild to give it a go. Honzo BB too low for me I had a Ragley Big Wig Race last year, was a great bike but BB was also low and I ran a 165mm crank and still had some rock strikes. The Nimble and the VerHauen I can run 170mm cranks and not had any pedal strike issues.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

what type of info are you looking for? I don’t plan to do a ton of speedy downhill or fast trails riding. As my riding evolves I’ll probably get a FS, but for now I’d like to focus on a quality HT. Roots, , downed trees across the trail, rocks and some small drops are all I’ll really be targeting. Don’t get me wrong, there obviously will be ups and downs and I’m not the type to wear out my brakes, but it will not be my primary focus or the focus of the riders I’m going out with to be going super fast. I’m 6’ about 250lb. A 1x12 would be nice. Mid travel front fork.


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

TheWitness34 said:


> what type of info are you looking for? I don’t plan to do a ton of speedy downhill or fast trails riding. As my riding evolves I’ll probably get a FS, but for now I’d like to focus on a quality HT. Roots, , downed trees across the trail, rocks and some small drops are all I’ll really be targeting. Don’t get me wrong, there obviously will be ups and downs and I’m not the type to wear out my brakes, but it will not be my primary focus or the focus of the riders I’m going out with to be going super fast. I’m 6’ about 250lb. A 1x12 would be nice. Mid travel front fork.


I am 6'1" and have the XL Nimble, If I were you I would go with an XL as well, they run small or should I say short because of the steep seat angle. If you go with a L you will run into the weight on the hands because the stack is low compared to the seat height. IDK how actual real tall riders ride these new geo'd bikes.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Canssago said:


> I am 6'1" and have the XL Nimble, If I were you I would go with an XL as well, they run small or should I say short because of the steep seat angle. If you go with a L you will run into the weight on the hands because the stack is low compared to the seat height. IDK how actual real tall riders ride these new geo'd bikes.












Although I am not a fan of low Stack bikes it is at least one of the geo issues that is easily solved with a high rise bar. There are some nice options in the 50-80mm rise range. Add in a few steerer tube spacers and you can really get your bars up pretty high.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

This one is hard for me… I’ve owned a Nimble 9 and a Middlechild, and while they seem like a similar bike on paper they don’t feel like it at all when you actually ride them. I absolutely loved my Nimble 9, and while I had a short honeymoon period with the MC I ultimately really couldn’t click with it at all. It just felt… goofy.

It sucks that there’s really no way to test ride them.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

I don’t really have anywhere to try out bikes besides trek… giant… specialized, etc. I’d like to stay away from those brands of bikes and get something that your average rider doesn’t have and also support these other companies. Right now what I’m looking for is a good solid fork and frame which in the price range seem to bounce around. So I guess nice specs in the price range. Anywhere below say $4,400. Hydraulic disc, 1x12, 130-150mm travel, hard tail. I’m open to other suggestions from others as well. Everybody here is more experienced than I, I can tell you that much. I don’t mind spending the money and the time on a bike and in a few years upgrading but it would be awesome to get a good specd out bike the first time and grow with it as a rider.


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## StopTheExcuses (Feb 18, 2012)

I second the RSD Middlechild. I’ve had mine about a month and LOVE it!


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## Pebisnutt (Sep 6, 2019)

I have an XL nimble 9, it's a blast for the most part. It's a whippy monster truck that can cover a wide range of trail types.
I have minor complaints about fit and balance, the cockpit can feel weird at times, prone towards oversteering, and not the best tool if you've got a lot of techy climbs as it can peter out or struggle to hold a line. I'm 6 inches taller than you though so the fit might be better for you. But once you start to build any amount of momentum it's fantastic. 
It's not going to be the most stable feeling bike but if you just want rowdy, versatile fun it's a great choice and can be built with many different parts


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

Pebisnutt said:


> I have an XL nimble 9, it's a blast for the most part. It's a whippy monster truck that can cover a wide range of trail types.
> I have minor complaints about fit and balance, the cockpit can feel weird at times, prone towards oversteering, and not the best tool if you've got a lot of techy climbs as it can peter out or struggle to hold a line. I'm 6 inches taller than you though so the fit might be better for you. But once you start to build any amount of momentum it's fantastic.
> It's not going to be the most stable feeling bike but if you just want rowdy, versatile fun it's a great choice and can be built with many different parts


I think you just talked me out of it lol.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

I can confirm what Pebisnutt said...when you start giving it the onion, the N9 is fantastic and hard wires into your body and brain. Fun to thrash and very capable. When you're doing anything else, which usually makes up the majority of real world mountain biking, it starts to show its weaknesses. It definitely isn't something I'd categorize as an all-rounder.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

TheWitness34 said:


> I think you just talked me out of it lol.


If that description turned you off from the N9, then I’d argue you need to seriously rethink that category of bikes as a whole. Every AM hardtail I’ve owned or ridden is just as quirky as Pebisnutt says his N9 is. IME you’re not going to find an amazingly well balanced, super capable in all situations hardtail with a 150mm fork… that’s just not what they’re made for. Yes, they’re fun but there are going to be trade offs.


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## Pebisnutt (Sep 6, 2019)

TheWitness34 said:


> I think you just talked me out of it lol.


Lol I try to be honest and subjective, but yeah after 2 years some of the shortcomings become more apparent. Everything is a tradeoff though. 

I should add that terrain (obviously) plays a huge role. I live in Massachusetts with very messy and chunky trails. When I vacationed in north Carolina I was immediately twice as good of a rider and the nimble 9 really excelled


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## Sssteveyoung (Jul 26, 2013)

vikb said:


> You aren't alone I couldn't ride a HT with a STA that steep.





Canssago said:


> I am 6'1" and have the XL Nimble, If I were you I would go with an XL as well, they run small or should I say short because of the steep seat angle. If you go with a L you will run into the weight on the hands because the stack is low compared to the seat height. IDK how actual real tall riders ride these new geo'd bikes.


I am trying to figure this out as well. I just upgraded a V1 2011 Yelli Screamy XL to a 2022 Yelli Screamy L. The old bike was comfortable all day long. The new one absolutely rips and feels much more chuck-able/nimble but I’m getting hand pressure related discomfort after about 2 hours of XC type riding. That’s less of an issue with more aggressive riding - so is related to extended seated pedalling.

I am not sure if it is seat angle or size related. I just took delivery of an XL YS 2022 frame so will build that up shortly and try and figure out what works best for me.

I’ve been comfortable on my bikes for years but while this new geometry makes for great handling downhill out of the saddle, getting it to work for long seated rides is proving tricky.

I am 6’1” FWIW.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> If that description turned you off from the N9, then I’d argue you need to seriously rethink that category of bikes as a whole. Every AM hardtail I’ve owned or ridden is just as quirky as Pebisnutt says his N9 is. IME you’re not going to find an amazingly well balanced, super capable in all situations hardtail with a 150mm fork… that’s just not what they’re made for. Yes, they’re fun but there are going to be trade offs.


A lot of the bike shops in my area have your basic household brand bike names. While they’re great, I feel the money is spent better elsewhere. Here’s a breakdown of what is around here to ride/what I’ll ride and maybe you can give a better suggestion?

-Lots of roots to pop off of or ride over both at speed or pedaling after obstacles
-Rocks. The rocks are usually larger and more of a drop than jumbled together like a rock garden. I enjoy hitting these.
-The ground is usually pretty well packed in. A mix of clay and dirt in some areas. Others just packed dirt.
-At most trails I ride there’s a downed tree or four across the path. Most bike trails here are also hiked but they don’t always clean them up.
-I enjoy going down hills at comfortable speed and hitting drops. I’m not a go fast rider and my skill doesn’t really allow that right now.
-Always up hill down hill around here. Nothing is ever really flat terrain. Some decent climbs.

I figured a hard tail would be both fun And more efficient for what’s described above. You guys know better than me though. $4,400 is my top limit shipped as that’s already pushing it. But I’d rather get a well spec’d bike I can enjoy and ride than one I need to keep waiting on parts for.


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

For an all arounder it is hard to go wrong with a Vassago VerHauen, designed around a 120-140mm fork, does everything well. Super well balanced for ups and down.









VerHauen


VerHauen We have taken the Vassago VerHauen to the next level for the newest iteration and it is by far the best! We have returned to our roots with a 100% made in the USA steel frame built for ripping up and down the trails. For the newest version we have moved production in-house - allowing us...



www.vassagocycles.com


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

Canssago said:


> For an all arounder it is hard to go wrong with a Vassago VerHauen, designed around a 120-140mm fork, does everything well. Super well balanced for ups and down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And spec it out with what else? I was hoping to buy a complete but interested in going that route if parts are available and they’re of the same or better spec of a complete. I want to get on the trails soon both for health reasons and just because now I’ve got it in my mind I’m going to start riding again lol. But of course I’m not eager enough to sacrifice quality.


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

TheWitness34 said:


> And spec it out with what else? I was hoping to buy a complete but interested in going that route if parts are available and they’re of the same or better spec of a complete. I want to get on the trails soon both for health reasons and just because now I’ve got it in my mind I’m going to start riding again lol. But of course I’m not eager enough to sacrifice quality.


Vassago will sell you a complete, or partial. I got a Radimus frame plus pike ultimate fork really good deal on for(right after lockdown, took til end of summer to collect SS build parts). Tom was real responsive to emails and questions


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

socal_jack said:


> Vassago will sell you a complete, or partial. I got a Radimus frame plus pike ultimate fork really good deal on for(right after lockdown, took til end of summer to collect SS build parts). Tom was real responsive to emails and questions


Emailed them. Was hoping to have a bike by the end of the month. last minute you know! Lol


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

TheWitness34 said:


> A lot of the bike shops in my area have your basic household brand bike names. While they’re great, I feel the money is spent better elsewhere. Here’s a breakdown of what is around here to ride/what I’ll ride and maybe you can give a better suggestion?
> 
> -Lots of roots to pop off of or ride over both at speed or pedaling after obstacles
> -Rocks. The rocks are usually larger and more of a drop than jumbled together like a rock garden. I enjoy hitting these.
> ...


Where is "here"/"my area"? It matters. Your descriptors are sortof useful, but less so without pictures or some sort of frame of reference for your descriptors. How you describe things could be anything from beginner trails on up to stuff that would be a challenge to the majority of riders.

I ride a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead with a 140mm fork (MRP Ribbon). It's a fun bike. Will it be what you're looking for? Hard to say. I ride it in Pisgah and while my primary intended use for the bike was to be for some of the easier/flowier trails, it's been my only mtb because the pandemic put a damper on my family's bike shopping and I've even ridden it on the hardest stuff we have. The vast majority of the tech in Pisgah is downhill tech. There's MUCH less climbing tech to deal with, so I don't have as much experience with it in that sort of environment.


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## FIF (Oct 5, 2018)

Framed Bikes might be worth checking out Mountain bikes.


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## garlic-breead (8 mo ago)

i would at least give viathon, the walmart bike a look at. super cheap for what they are








M.1 | X01 Eagle


With it’s amazing X01 Eagle gear range, 120mm-travel SID suspension fork, and lightweight carbon frame, the M.1 X01 packs in the performance at half the cost of our top models. Whether you’re a racer, student-athlete, or just want to tackle dirt trails, this bike will give you the tools to find...




www.viathonbicycles.com




i would look at the xo1 and gx modles and put a better fork on the bike


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## yakswak (Apr 17, 2004)

Someone already mentioned RSD but they are giving some discounts with a code listed on the product page if you buy a bike they have in stock. I tried it for kicks and the code knocked off $400 a complete Aluminum RSD.


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## StopTheExcuses (Feb 18, 2012)

yakswak said:


> Someone already mentioned RSD but they are giving some discounts with a code listed on the product page if you buy a bike they have in stock. I tried it for kicks and the code knocked off $400 a complete Aluminum RSD.


Agreed, I actually purchased my steel V2 right when this sale started. It makes it a really good value for the money, AND in stock. Otherwise OP could also check out Marin Team Marin 2 or a Spot Rocker maybe. I believe they are both in stock as well.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Big tires? How about a Maniak when it opens orders again?


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

I ended up getting an RSD middle child v2 in chromoly, complete GX package. 27.5” wheels. Black.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Canssago said:


> For an all arounder it is hard to go wrong with a Vassago VerHauen, designed around a 120-140mm fork, does everything well. Super well balanced for ups and down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hard to get even a basic idea of what this bike might be about with no geo chart. At least, I couldn't find one.


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## Abunchahicks (Mar 12, 2019)

BadgerOne said:


> Hard to get even a basic idea of what this bike might be about with no geo chart. At least, I couldn't find one.


Yep, and they do not reply to emails or voicemails. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## canyoneagle (Sep 27, 2007)

The Binary Maniak looks awesome. I follow HTP on Youtube and had seen the review. Looks like a really sweet bike.

Not to sound like a fanboy, but just putting an alternative out there for you. I have one of these after a long line of nice 29er hardtails (and fully rigid), and absolutely love it. It handles extremely well as a singletrack ripper, but can also be put to use for bikepacking or adventure biking. Pretty cool - belt drive and Pinion 12 speed gearbox (no derailleurs to muck up). PRIORITY 600X ADVENTURE - Priority Bicycles - here's my thread on the bike, with my upgrades if you're curious.
Or if the budget allows (stretch to $4-$5k), the Solace OM-2P is a sexier equivalent, and the OM-1 is a great option for conventional drivetrain. https://solacecycles.com/bikes

I had a Vassago Mooseknuckle ti 29+ fully rigid and loved it. Might be able to squeeze one in on your budget.

Otherwise, the Canfield looks like a great option.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

Abunchahicks said:


> Yep, and they do not reply to emails or voicemails.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually, Tom at vassago replied to my email a day after I inquired and was very accommodating. But since I had already bought a bike they didn’t get the sale.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

I also just bought a bikeyoke divine 185mm with their triggy long remote. RSD didn’t have any completes with dropper posts left so I guess it’s my first “upgrade”. Hopefully I like it!


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## canyoneagle (Sep 27, 2007)

TheWitness34 said:


> Actually, Tom at vassago replied to my email a day after I inquired and was very accommodating. But since I had already bought a bike they didn’t get the sale.


I had the same experience with Vassago - direct response and conversation(s) with Tom. Great guy, and excellent frames.


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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

Abunchahicks said:


> Yep, and they do not reply to emails or voicemails.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tom has always replied to me same day, sometimes within hours.


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)




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## Canssago (9 mo ago)

Great looking bike!


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

Canssago said:


> Great looking bike!


Thank you!


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## StopTheExcuses (Feb 18, 2012)

TheWitness34 said:


> View attachment 1984498
> 
> View attachment 1984499


Nice! That sure arrived fast! I ALMOST got the matte black aluminum frame to save a few bucks, sharp! What do you think so far? Alex is so easy to work with as well, great bikes and great company!


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## StayVigilant35 (8 mo ago)

He was very responsive, great guy! The bike is awesome. I haven’t given it a total shake down yet and had to adjust the suspension after I got home from the initial ride but I love it. It’s super fun and I don’t feel like I’m driving a tractor trailer like I did with the 29er I had. I actually went over some obstacles I wouldn’t have tried with the 29er. 27.5 is a great median tire size for MTB I think. I’m familiar with chromo as far as it’s durability as all my BMX bikes were chromo. So that’s why I chose it. Titanium would have been my next choice.


StopTheExcuses said:


> Nice! That sure arrived fast! I ALMOST got the matte black aluminum frame to save a few bucks, sharp! What do you think so far? Alex is so easy to work with as well, great bikes and great company!


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## powdertrax (Oct 10, 2014)

I swear by my steel framed Honzo, two of my friends bought one after riding mine. My only complaint which has caused my a couple good slams is the low bottom bracket. Funny thing is I let my son ride the Honzo and I ride my Smuggler and if we run into people on the trails they always ask questions about the Honzo.

When I first bought my Smuggler I found that I was exiting corners too wide and ending up in the soft stuff on the side of the trail ending up doing a Superman every time. I was trying to figure out what was causing me to exit so wide, so I really paid attention to loading up the outside pedal, but it was still happening. I went through as many scenarios of what might be causing it and finally thought maybe the wheelbase is longer then the Honzo, well it was the Honzo was a 1 1/2“ shorter.


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## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

This is a great HT option IMO. I loved mine so much I sold it and ordered the Titanium version.








Tyaughton Steel


SHIPPING NOW. Standard GX spec unavailable until further notice. Please keep in mind that global shipping is still very unpredictable and all delivery dates are approximate. If you have any questions, contact us - [email protected] Bikes ship unassembled. Spec is subject to change due to...




knollybikes.com


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Canssago said:


> Love my Nimble 9, had it about 3 months. Also have a Vassago VerHauen, also a great bike but more XC and has the ability to run 29 x2.8. Both have sliders. Sizing though is completely different, on a XL Nimble and a L Vassago. Running the Nimble with 160mm fork and Vassago with a 140mm. If I could only keep one of them, it would be the Vassago due to versatility.


See it's riders like you that really confuse me (no offense!!), ones that can switch from pretty much the ideal XC middle of the bell curve geo bike like the VerHauen, to a pretty much completely out of left field bike like the newer geo N9, *and be just find on both.* 

They SHOULD feel like very very different bikes, in a number of ways. This is what really has a lot of people scratching their heads when it comes to new bikes, and why it is very difficult to get solid advice on a bike from someone that lives thousands of miles away. What I also find interesting is that you dig and dig for reviews that match your thoughts about how a bike like the N9 "should feel", and find nothing. Then you read a thread like this one, and see that others are experiencing what you thought should be happening. 

Geo similar to an N9 is going to be lackluster in everything but prolonged uphill climbs, and bombing down a hill. It isn't going to be nimble because of the chopper front end, and will be a handful in tight switchbacks and other slow paced tech because it's long and floppy. I've read more then a few reviews were similar geo bikes just feel numb and boring at anything below 7/10ths. But start to wake up when you start blasting. Whereas the Vassago should be a much easier to pedal bike, easier to maneuver at lower speeds, great at everything up to 7/10ths, but starts falling behind at the limit compared to a N9. 

Any bike like the N9 has a lot better chance of giving riders hand pains and leg issues, because the pedaling position is so far forward compared to traditional bikes. I have concluded that bikes with 75*+ STA and sub 67* hta are just meant to due two things, easy higher speed climbing (where an XC geo bike would have you out on the nose of the saddle), and bombing down the hill you just climbed. 

It's basically just physics, and going to be hard to avoid regardless of marketing. A 65* hta bike is going to steer differently, BECAUSE you are steering the bike differently. For example, take your pointer and middle finger and pretend they are a bike fork, with a wheel in the middle, pointing them down at the ground . First pretend that you are on a slack bike with your fingers pointing more forward then down, and you can see how they almost flop when you would turn them side to side, and how that translates to how the bike would steer. Then adjust your fingers to be more upright, like a traditional bike geo, and notice how that changes how you would steer the bike.


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