# Ti Frames Break More than CF. WHAT?!?!



## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok so I went into my LBS the other to ask their input on whether custom Ti BB30 frames encounter the same issues with creaking and bearing wear as mass produced frames (assuming the Ti builder does an excellent job machining the shell). Let me caveat this whole story by ensuring everyone knows this LBS is an old mans mid-life crisis shop that almost exclusively sells CF bikes in the price range of $7K-$20K which means they have a lot of BB30 bikes (and a lot of darsh bags). Rather than answering my questions, they just made me feel like an idiot for even considering going with an english threaded BB and then decided to get on the topic of why I would ever buy a custom Ti rather than a CF bike which is much stronger and better than any Ti bike ever made.

Three of the guys decided to express their opinion that 90% of their friends that have custom Ti frames have cracked or broken their frames within two years of owning them. I know the history of litespeed ti frames cracking or breaking or whatever but I am wondering if custom Ti bikes made by great builders (Eriksen, IF, Potts, Form, Vertigo, Quiring, etc) have had any issues with this?


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Hmmm, they sell carbon fiber bikes at that shop you say? It's kinda in their interest to try to pump you up on what they have on the floor, ya think?


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

Broken Litespeed frame. Somehow, the welds don't look so good when the frame is broken. Just sayin'.


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

Edoz - I am not that stupid and realize that could have been what they were trying to do but I already told them I was in the process of building the custom Ti frame and I wasnt going to purchase a carbon fiber bike no matter what they told me. My whole point was that they tried to say Ti breaks more often than any other material with mention of CF specifically and I wanted to see if anyone else agrees with them. That was all.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

pitze1mr said:


> Edoz - I am not that stupid and realize that could have been what they were trying to do but I already told them I was in the process of building the custom Ti frame and I wasnt going to purchase a carbon fiber bike no matter what they told me. My whole point was that they tried to say Ti breaks more often than any other material with mention of CF specifically and I wanted to see if anyone else agrees with them. That was all.


Don't worry about it. You like titanium. They like carbon. Let's meet in the middle and just get steel.


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

pitze1mr said:


> (snip) they just made me feel like an idiot (snip)


When a LBS starts to make you feel like an idiot when you know you are not one, just walk out the door, man. I was told by one guy that facing a 73mm BB shell down to 68mm would put so much wear on his cutting tool that he didn't want to risk it. The frame was made of aluminum.

Same shop tried to sell my buddy a triathlon / racing road bike when he asked about putting a riser stem and drop bars on an old mountain bike.


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

I didnt mean they made me feel like an idiot, I just meant they tried to make me feel like an idiot. When I ask for bike advice, I am not going to ask people that work at a bike shop, I am going to ask my friends that race or work as mechanics or frame builders themselves. I will never believe anything that a bike store employee tells me but the fact that they claimed ti bikes are more fragile than carbon bikes struck a nerve and I decided to ask a mechanic buddy about it and he told me he has probably seen the same amount of ti and cf frames break but he caveated saying that about 90% of the ti frames that he saw break were litespeed leading me to ask about other (higher quality) framebuilder's Ti frames. 

I definitely agree with you though and I almost did walk out but I was intrigued by their useless knowledge. Its just like telemarketers, I will never buy anything but I like to string them along to hear how stupid the offer/advice is going to be.

Bee - I also agree about the steel. My 09' salsa casseroll single/fixed is my trustiest steed in the stable. That thing seems like it will last a lifetime and looks good in the spicy mustard color. Its damn heavy though  and doesnt soak up the bumps very well.

My trustiest purchase to date however was the ti eriksen sweetpost. Its almost like I have FS on my hardtail when I ride that post.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

Drew Diller said:


> When a LBS starts to make you feel like an idiot when you know you are not one, just walk out the door, man. I was told by one guy that facing a 73mm BB shell down to 68mm would put so much wear on his cutting tool that he didn't want to risk it. The frame was made of aluminum.
> 
> Same shop tried to sell my buddy a triathlon / racing road bike when he asked about putting a riser stem and drop bars on an old mountain bike.


I agree. If your local bike shop treats you like crap, then just leave and take your business to another place. There is no excuse for bad service from bike shops like these.


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## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

Can't say I hear of many ti frames cracking at all (unless a truck, garage roof or high-velocity tree helps it along). Even 'cheap' far eastern frames like Van Nicholas seem to last just fine.

The real question though, is why BB30 at all? If you're spending the kind of money custom-ti calls for and want a press in bb, may as well use a system that won't be rubbish from the start (BB92 for example). Still none of them beat the good old English threaded bb as far as my money goes.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I was waiting for someone to say it in one of your other threads, and if someone did disregard. But you have discussed this stuff with the builder correct?


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

pitze1mr said:


> When I ask for bike advice, I am not going to ask people that work at a bike shop, I am going to ask my friends that race or work as mechanics or frame builders themselves. I will never believe anything that a bike store employee tells.


...


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

Yea I have briefly discussed this stuff with the builder but we have not yet started the CAD so I will address it at a later time I just wanted to be as informed as possible by the time we really get into the design stage.

I know I have started a lot of threads lately but searching for the info I need wasnt helpful as no one was asking the questions that I needed answered. I definitely love learning more which is the reason I am asking the specific questions I need answered.

And Adarn - I knew someone was going to catch my mistake. I was going to edit my response but I wanted to see if anyone would catch it. I was walking by the bike store and decided to stop in to ask them about bearing wear on custom ti BB30 frames. I did not go out of my way to do it but thought i would since I was walking by. I am still going to ask my buddies before I make my decision. Thanks for keeping me sharp though.

Some people are pretty meticulous on these forums but I appreciate it. I do it too.


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

This was the builders response by the way to my questions about the belt drive and BB30.

"Never the less, the belt drive option or the BB30 does not have any downsides in my opinion (I love the centertrack on my fat bike!). You can still run an english bb in a BB30 shell and the belt drive option is just a small button head screw down located by the dropout."


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Random thoughts*

-Everything breaks eventually. Especially mountain bikes, if you ride them like they should be ridden. One day, you'll mess up and hit that tree/ditch/construction equipment hard enough to buckle your downtube. Or you'll drop your bike off a cliff while doing an emergency dismount and crease a tube around a rock. Or you'll let your teenage son drive home from the race and he'll run it into the garage. Mountain bikes have hard lives. 
-The average "high end" ($1500 and up) bike is only kept by its original owner for 18 months. You might be an exception, or you might not. 
-Every frame material can be reliable, or horrible, it depends on how well constructed the frame is, not the particular material used. 
-Being a weightweenie about your frame is usually a dumb idea unless the only thing that matters to you is the number on your scale. 
-I don't know of any reputable ti builders that have regular breakage problems - and any good ti builder will give you a very generous warranty to ease your mind, as well. 
-The old 6/4 Litespeeds are junk (see the weightweenie comment). You should not judge modern ti builders by those things falling apart.

-Walt


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## CBaron (May 7, 2004)

pitze1mr said:


> This was the builders response by the way to my questions about the belt drive and BB30.
> 
> "Never the less, the belt drive option or the BB30 does not have any downsides in my opinion (I love the centertrack on my fat bike!). You can still run an english bb in a BB30 shell and the belt drive option is just a small button head screw down located by the dropout."


The belt drive "option" is great. The actual belt drive drivetrain maybe not-so-much.

&#8230;especially on Ti.

-CJB


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

**Everything* has downsides*

That is a pretty stupid statement. It's one thing to believe that belts or BB30 are better than chains/English, but to say they have NO downsides? Hilarious. I can think of many non-controversial downsides to both, in addition to lots of debatable ones. That said, if you want the latest cool thing, they are both definitely new and cool.

Without going into too much detail, making a frame compatible with a belt drive is MUCH more than just adding a little coupler. It requires sacrifices in rear end geometry as well as limiting your choices of chainstay to very beefy stuff that will be stiff enough to keep the belt from slipping. The end of the world? Not necessarily. A downside? Yes.

-Walt



pitze1mr said:


> This was the builders response by the way to my questions about the belt drive and BB30.
> 
> "Never the less, the belt drive option or the BB30 does not have any downsides in my opinion (I love the centertrack on my fat bike!). You can still run an english bb in a BB30 shell and the belt drive option is just a small button head screw down located by the dropout."


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## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

*i like steel*



bee said:


> Don't worry about it. You like titanium. They like carbon. Let's meet in the middle and just get steel.


i like steel...in my hardtail, guns, knives, cooking pots.

I've been trying to break my steel HT with XC riding, since 1998... as soon as I do that I'll get me a Reynolds 853 steel HT frame to replace. ...might be a while, even with a 130mm fork. plus, now I flow on a Bullit/Boxxer bike...no steel here, but I still like it.

when the time comes to replace my Bullit, I am wondering...SC Nomad carbon frame or what else that can run on coil, front derailluer, and take a 170~200mm steel coil fork....then I wake up and go ride, trying to break that al. Bullit.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

I can't speak to failure rates of ti vs any other material but I'm curious about your BB30.

Are you actually choosing a proper BB30 (internal circlips, 42mm bore, steel races pressed into ti) or a PF30 (46mm bore, bearings pressed into a delrin cup, same exact bearing as a BB30)

Just curious. People mix up the nomenclature frequently but from a fab standpoint there's a huge difference between the two despite the fact that they do the same job. I don't know why anyone would ever build another BB30 frame.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

smudge said:


> I can't speak to failure rates of ti vs any other material but I'm curious about your BB30.
> 
> Are you actually choosing a proper BB30 (internal circlips, 42mm bore, steel races pressed into ti) or a PF30 (46mm bore, bearings pressed into a delrin cup, same exact bearing as a BB30)
> 
> Just curious. People mix up the nomenclature frequently but from a fab standpoint there's a huge difference between the two despite the fact that they do the same job. I don't know why anyone would ever build another BB30 frame.


If I am not mistaken, people with these large bore bottom brackets (BB30, PF30, BB92, etc) complain a lot about BB creaking that won't go away.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

My wife rides a 1999 Litespeed road bike. She purchased it brand new in 99. She's put more miles on it then you can imagine. She's on her 3rd wheel set, I've put enough chains on it to go to the moon and back. Enough bar tape to clear cut a forest of cork trees. She's worn out a water bottle cage. (no kidding worn the aluminum almost in half). Frame is solid as a rock and it has a english BB. I know its a road bike but it probably has around 50,000 miles on it.

Tim


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

Hey Sean,

It would be a proper BB30 rather than a PF30. I am leaning more towards english though just because of the Crank purchase options as well as my positive experiences and ease of maintenance of external BBs. I know a few friends that have had ti bikes built from him with BB30 and they love them and (they say) they have not had any issues with creaking or bearing wear.

-Matt


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## honkifyoubonk (May 3, 2012)

sda


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Anybody that thinks BB30 is substantially better than English threaded is an @#%&[email protected]!

Sounds like the LBS is set-up for roadies....Tell them that you are going to take your $8000 custom Moots order somewhere else!


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## esilvassy (Jul 25, 2006)

bee said:


> If I am not mistaken, people with these large bore bottom brackets (BB30, PF30, BB92, etc) complain a lot about BB creaking that won't go away.


I have a BB92 in my pivot and no creaky issues. I think that the delrin cups are a factor in stopping creaks.

if i were given the choice between BB30 and PF30 I would go the PF route personally.


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## pitze1mr (Jul 12, 2010)

its not an $8000 moots order either way and I am definitely not ordering through a bike shop but I would if I was 

Since the whole thread question was about whether BB30 or English was better, would you be able to elaborate why you like English more than BB30. Additionally, please inform whether you have rode a BB30 or whether you are basing your opinion off of some else's experience. In theory, it seems like a great idea except I think I would like some more protection of the bearings. What are your issues with BB30??


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## zerodish (Jun 17, 2006)

I've made paper thin seamed tubing 2 to 3 inches in diameter. They were part of an aircraft deicer so only carried hot air. You could pinch the walls of the tubes until they touched. I tried to bust a seam this way but was unable to do so. If titanium frames are breaking then the builders are letting oxygen into the welds.


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