# Hydraulic disc brakes are worthless



## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

I've had hydraulics that have worked flawlessly before, but I truly prefer mechanical disc brakes. Easy peasy - no hassle with bleeding, hose lengths and overall price of purchase and upkeep.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Bit of a rant here...but I received the bike I ordered yesterday and the rear wheel was frozen because the rear Avid Elixir 3 brake was clamped down on the disk. So i started my research and several people said to use the spacer to pry them apart..Tried that and didnt help at all. So then I looked on the Avid site and it said in extremely rare cases there is too much fluid in the lines and to bleed them. So after searching 30 minutes online to find where the screw is to do this since the included manual is complete crap I figure that out. I bled it out little by little using the spacer to push the pads apart. I got them to the point that they are farther apart but still the disc skips lightly on the rim. And even with this marginal accomplishment there is now no power in the brake lever up front cause I had to remove so much oil.(Which is also corrosive and gave me some minor chemical burns on my finger tips)

What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting. 

Overall point, these things seem over complicated for doing the exact same thing a more reliable, adjustable, cheaper, lower maintenance mechanical disk brake can do.

End Rant


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## .bg. (Mar 28, 2012)

yakyakgoose said:


> Bit of a rant here...but I received the bike I ordered yesterday and the rear wheel was frozen because the rear Avid Elixir 3 brake was clamped down on the disk. So i started my research and several people said to use the spacer to pry them apart..Tried that and didnt help at all. So then I looked on the Avid site and it said in extremely rare cases there is too much fluid in the lines and to bleed them. So after searching 30 minutes online to find where the screw is to do this since the included manual is complete crap I figure that out. I bled it out little by little using the spacer to push the pads apart. I got them to the point that they are farther apart but still the disc skips lightly on the rim. And even with this marginal accomplishment there is now no power in the brake lever up front cause I had to remove so much oil.(Which is also corrosive and gave me some minor chemical burns on my finger tips)
> 
> What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting.
> 
> ...


:yawn:

Have you ridden with hydraulic brakes yet? Setup might be more troublesome, but I'd at least wait until you've used the equipment before calling them "worthless."


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## Biohazard74 (Jul 16, 2009)

Have used both and hydraulics are the way to go all the way. If you do light riding its not a big deal, but when you start with the crazier stuff you will notice a huge difference :thumbsup: All i know is when you set them up correctly they are the best IMO. Good luck


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Im just pretty pissed that I have a brand new bike sitting in my livingroom that cant be used right before a planned mountainbike trip.


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## .bg. (Mar 28, 2012)

yakyakgoose said:


> Im just pretty pissed that I have a brand new bike sitting in my livingroom that cant be used right before a planned mountainbike trip.


In that case, I'd run it up to your local LBS and see if they can throw it together for you for the trip. It's never a good idea to rush what's already a frustrating job in order to make a trip. Even worse when it's a completely new piece of equipment that you haven't learned the ins and outs of yet.

It really will just lead you to frustration...


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## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

yakyakgoose said:


> Bit of a rant here...but I received the bike I ordered yesterday and the rear wheel was frozen because the rear Avid Elixir 3 brake was clamped down on the disk. So i started my research and several people said to use the spacer to pry them apart..Tried that and didnt help at all. So then I looked on the Avid site and it said in extremely rare cases there is too much fluid in the lines and to bleed them. So after searching 30 minutes online to find where the screw is to do this since the included manual is complete crap I figure that out. I bled it out little by little using the spacer to push the pads apart. I got them to the point that they are farther apart but still the disc skips lightly on the rim. And even with this marginal accomplishment there is now no power in the brake lever up front cause I had to remove so much oil.(Which is also corrosive and gave me some minor chemical burns on my finger tips)
> 
> What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting.
> 
> ...


Your 1st problem is that Avid hydro disks are GARBAGE!! Repeat, GARBAGE. Crappy modulation, dumb streight blade lever that isn't ergonomic at all, mechanical issues, and kinda chincy build quality. I'd recommend a switch over to Shimano or Hayes.

Lots of people gripe about hydros but I've bled my Shimano M775's once a year, and I have NEVER had to touch them all season for the past 2 seasons. EVER! Much better than adjusting for cable strech in a mech brake system. Not to mention the increase in stopping power. 1 finger brakeing ftw.

I'd never use any other kind of brake again. Cables or rim.


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## Biohazard74 (Jul 16, 2009)

esundell90 said:


> Your 1st problem is that Avid hydro disks are GARBAGE!! Repeat, GARBAGE. Crappy modulation, dumb streight blade lever that isn't ergonomic at all, mechanical issues, and kinda chincy build quality. I'd recommend a switch over to Shimano or Hayes.
> 
> Lots of people gripe about hydros but I've bled my Shimano M775's once a year, and I have NEVER had to touch them all season for the past 2 seasons. EVER! Much better than adjusting for cable strech in a mech brake system. Not to mention the increase in stopping power. 1 finger brakeing ftw.
> 
> I'd never use any other kind of brake again. Cables or rim.


I have Avid Elixer r's and haven't had to do anything to them in the 2 years ive had them. Maybe about 1500 miles. Modulation is awesome and Have yet to fail me. Altghough it took a bit to get them right when i got them but when i got it right they were amazing and still feel great after 2 years


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## Call_me_Tom (May 26, 2008)

I have both Mech & Hydro, for the riding I do, I don't notice a difference. The maintenece of hydros is a little daunting.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

You didn't really bleed the brakes. You let some fluid out, which is different. Get a bleed kit (or take your bike to the shop) and bleed your brakes for real this time and see if you notice a difference. Hydros can be a pain to set up, but once you get them dialed, you don't have to do a lot to them.


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

As I see it the OP's problems are:

- he "ordered a bike" which sounds like it came from a mail-order/internet bike shop.
- when he discovered a problem he whines about it on the internet instead of taking it to his LBS
- he posts an unfounded blanket statement that "all xxxx's are crap" because he's frustrated and hasn't actually ridden a bike with a functioning xxxx. 
- which brings us back to the original problem of him ordering a bike from an other than LBS option.

So, yakyakgoose, get a grip, your LBS will fix your bike but you're going to have to pay them money. Making fun of you as you walk out the door they'll do free of charge.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

Where did you buy the bike? Even from an online retailer, I'd expect them to do a bare minimum once-over before packaging it up. Which would incl. making sure the wheels spin. I guess this would be a check mark in the reasons buying from an LBS are good column.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I have both.

I have also notices the cheap nature of Avid hydros. IMO, the BB7's are their best brake. I have a set on my commuter and a set on my wife's mtb. To be honest, I've found them to be FAR more fiddly than my 2002 Magura Julie hydros. the hydros are set and forget. bleeding them is easy. it just take time and care to do it right. the only reason people don't like bleeding hydros is because it's different than adjusting a cable like they're accustomed to doing for derailleurs and other brakes. it's not ACTUALLY any more difficult.

I much prefer the hydros.

1. set and forget
2. smoother lever feel
3. better modulation of power
4. no "mush" feel when properly set up, because there's no cable to stretch
5. actually, hydros are mechanically SIMPLER


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Caffeine Powered said:


> As I see it the OP's problems are:
> 
> - he "ordered a bike" which sounds like it came from a mail-order/internet bike shop.
> - when he discovered a problem he whines about it on the internet instead of taking it to his LBS
> ...


You just sound like an LBS snob. Who would make fun of someone paying them money and trying to learn new things? Yes, I have ridden a hydraulic for one pass down a mountain and didnt notice much difference. Felt a little more "fluid" perhaps. I then asked an LBS the why behind hydraulics and was told the two finger thing. My point is, for the amount of setup for these things I dont see the point except to chase whats new. Also what happens if these mess up on the trail? Your just screwed.

I also like knowing how the things I own work and how to fix them especially in a sport that may require me to have to in the middle of nowhere . Maybe your tight shorts squeezed your boys a little too much and you dont have masculine traits like that anymore, if you ever did. Youd rather run to your nearest easy way out and open your wallet.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

NateHawk said:


> I have both.
> 
> I have also notices the cheap nature of Avid hydros. IMO, the BB7's are their best brake. I have a set on my commuter and a set on my wife's mtb. To be honest, I've found them to be FAR more fiddly than my 2002 Magura Julie hydros. the hydros are set and forget. bleeding them is easy. it just take time and care to do it right. the only reason people don't like bleeding hydros is because it's different than adjusting a cable like they're accustomed to doing for derailleurs and other brakes. it's not ACTUALLY any more difficult.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the informative reply, on mechaincals I occasionally had to dial the pads in and out if they started to run against the wheel. Nothing major, just tweeks. How does this happen with the hydraulics?


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## garrett_xc (Apr 23, 2012)

yakyakgoose said:


> Thanks for the informative reply, on mechaincals I occasionally had to dial the pads in and out if they started to run against the wheel. Nothing major, just tweeks. How does this happen with the hydraulics?


To my knowledge, there isn't an adjustment. The fluid pressure when the lever is released should be so little that the pads ride just off the rotor (or may even drag ever so slightly, hopefully imperceptibly) based on the fluid pressure. As the pads wear down, the fluid level goes down and the caliper self-adjusts (this is the sage old advice...don't just refill the fluid reservoir if it looks low...first check for leaks, and then check the pad depth). Same as with a vehicle.

I think the OP's frustration is that he doesn't understand how the brakes operate or that brake fluid is corrosive, etc. Gotta wear gloves and goggles (or put up with the irritation). Don't get it on paint because brake fluid eats paint.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

to me hydraulic is nice when you have a several mile downhill and your hands have almost no strength left half-way down. In those conditions the extra efficiency of hydraulic brakes is amazing!

In the past week I've replaced the stock pads on 3 pairs of avid elixirs (5 and 3). All had too much hydraulic fluid to allow the calipers to retract sufficiently. on 1 pair (e 3's)I was able to leak a bit of fluid out and everything worked great. on the elixir 5's, both pairs, I had to bleed the brakes with the new pads. Fortunately avids are easy to bleed once you have the bleed kit.

This is definitely an area where buying from a LBS should be an advantage, but unless the bike is new, expect them to charge you for a bleed. If the bike is new or a couple of weeks old, any bike shop that sold you the bike should charge you nothing to get the brakes running without friction causing rub.

if you bought the bike online, this is part of the costs to factor against the savings. You are paying for something when you spend more at a LBS. 

I work at a LBS and I ride a bikes direct gravity 29.4, so maybe I'm reasonably unbiased.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

yakyakgoose said:


> Also what happens if these mess up on the trail? Your just screwed.


So when was the last time you had brakes of any kind fail on the trail? I will tell you the last time for me. I had cheap vee brakes that came stock on a bike. The head broke off of the cable pinch bolt on the rear calipers. Was I not screwed then?

I have ridden my Magura Julies on thousands of miles of trail in 7 states over the course of 8 years. I have replaced the pads and bled them once. And not because there was anything wrong with the performance. I did it because I was creeped out by the lack of maintenance these things needed and I felt better by doing a bit of work on them to make sure they were in tip top shape.

One ride on a trail does not an expert make.

It sounds like your other problem was that you bought a cheap bike with CHEAP hydros. probably single piston. if you're on a budget, don't buy the cheap version of something expensive. I haven't seen a cheap hydro brake that was any better than a good mechanical disc brake, or even a good set of vee brakes. In fact, I've seen some cheap hydro brakes that were much worse than comparably priced mechanicals. just because you're on a budget doesn't mean you have to ride a POS, but to avoid riding a POS, you have to be smart about where you spend your limited funds. and right now it sounds like you're lashing out because you're angry that you made a mistake.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Sounds like the lever was pulled before the rotor was in place so it "self-adjusted" to a point thinner than the rotor. Pretty simple to use a spacer tool of some sort to push the pistons back out to clear the rotor. Only time you should open up the system is for an actual bleed with a bleed kit/tools and following the steps.

Hydros, once set up, self-adjust until the pads are worn. You never have to touch any adjustment feature, if equipped so, unless you want to. How is that more trouble than having to adjust pad clearance with cable actuated brakes every ride or couple rides? I have both, btw, so I kinda understand how this works. 

If you get them bled and adjusted properly, give them time. Then, go back to cables if you don't like them.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

garrett_xc said:


> To my knowledge, there isn't an adjustment. The fluid pressure when the lever is released should be so little that the pads ride just off the rotor (or may even drag ever so slightly, hopefully imperceptibly) based on the fluid pressure. As the pads wear down, the fluid level goes down and the caliper self-adjusts (this is the sage old advice...don't just refill the fluid reservoir if it looks low...first check for leaks, and then check the pad depth). Same as with a vehicle.
> 
> I think the OP's frustration is that he doesn't understand how the brakes operate or that brake fluid is corrosive, etc. Gotta wear gloves and goggles (or put up with the irritation). Don't get it on paint because brake fluid eats paint.


yup, there is no adjustment. occasionally a rotor will warp if it gets too hot on a long downhill (especially a long downhill followed by a splash in a creek) or something, but that happens on mechanicals, too. in cases like that, the rotor can often be bent back.

I prefer hydros that use mineral oil. non-corrosive. some aspects of performance may not be quite as good, but easier to deal with when doing maintenance than DOT fluid. but I don't do DH. that decrease in performance is marginal for me, and not something I need to worry about 99% of the time.


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## Blk02 (Apr 15, 2006)

You might need to adjust the calipers as well. I like to loosen the caliper bolts about 1 turn then put a rubber band on the brake lever so the pads clamp down on the rotor. Then push the caliper side to side so the rotor is centered in the caliper opening. Then re-tighten the caliper bolts (per torque spec). This should align your caliper with the rotor and align your pads with the rotor. I have found that just squeezing the brake and tightening the caliper bolts only lines up the pads with the rotor and the caliper body can still be way off. You have to put opposing forces on the rotor so you don't bend it (press caliber body with thumbs and wrap your fingers over the back of the rotor).


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

yakyakgoose said:


> Thanks for the informative reply, on mechaincals I occasionally had to dial the pads in and out if they started to run against the wheel. Nothing major, just tweeks. How does this happen with the hydraulics?


You shouldn't really have to worry about this too much. Once you get your pads centered around the rotor, the pads should retract to the correct distance from the rotor. They self-adjust in this way.

I don't know much about the Elixer 3s, but I'm fairly certain they are dual piston, not single like NateHawk suggested. They are not the best brakes in the world, but they should work OK for you once you get them adjusted and bedded in.


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

yakyakgoose said:


> You just sound like an LBS snob.


Nope, LBS, online vendors, craigslist, ebay all have their place in providing bikes.

You're the unhappy child because you'd rather type out a rant about how it's an inanimate object's fault when it's your lack of mechanical skills and judgment that's the problem.


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## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

I'd never even consider mechanical discs unless on a winter bike. Hydros are vastly superior in every respect, except cost.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

NateHawk said:


> So when was the last time you had brakes of any kind fail on the trail? I will tell you the last time for me. I had cheap vee brakes that came stock on a bike. The head broke off of the cable pinch bolt on the rear calipers. Was I not screwed then?
> 
> I have ridden my Magura Julies on thousands of miles of trail in 7 states over the course of 8 years. I have replaced the pads and bled them once. And not because there was anything wrong with the performance. I did it because I was creeped out by the lack of maintenance these things needed and I felt better by doing a bit of work on them to make sure they were in tip top shape.
> 
> ...


I see your point about the rarity of brake failures. The brakes and frame are def the cheap things on this bike, but the rest of the components are high end, (x9's, reba fork etc. ) I was aware I'd replace the brakes eventually, but key word EVENTUALLY.  I messed with this thing for hours and almost whacked it with a hammer at one point.

Im used to being able to fix/figure out things, and this stumping me irritated the heck out of me. Its also a 10 speed and I cant seem to get the gears to work right. Seems to be pretty sensitive where you fix one issue and it causes another.

I am willing to admit defeat and called a bike store I usually buy from and they said theyll fix it up on friday if I can get it in today. They also said theyd let me watch so I can figure out what I was doing wrong.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Caffeine Powered said:


> Nope, LBS, online vendors, craigslist, ebay all have their place in providing bikes.
> 
> You're the unhappy child because you'd rather type out a rant about how it's an inanimate object's fault when it's your lack of mechanical skills and judgment that's the problem.


You continue to miss the point. Even set up, the amount of up front cost and continued cost and maintence isnt worth THE marginal benefit TO ME. Even if I had bled them correctly and went and bought the kit (More $). And fixed it in 30 minutes I STILL would have thought "Jeez these are a PITA" Working on something trying to figure it out with limited resources for several hours isnt "rather just type a rant". Thats effort and trying to do something I'm unfamiliar with.

Who goes onto someone elses thread and starts running their mouth and calling grown adults a "child"? Luckily, I've received plenty of other responses that negate the hostility of your posts. You no doubt feel exceptional with your high post count on an online forum but maybe you should set an example.:thumbsup:


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

yakyakgoose said:


> Yes, I have ridden a hydraulic for one pass down a mountain and didnt notice much difference.


OH, one time? Well, then, you are clearly an expert.



yakyakgoose said:


> My point is, for the amount of setup for these things I dont see the point except to chase whats new. Also what happens if these mess up on the trail? Your just screwed.


The only maintenance I ever need to do is replacing the pads and I'll get them bled occasionally. Other than that? Nothing.



yakyakgoose said:


> I also like knowing how the things I own work and how to fix them especially in a sport that may require me to have to in the middle of nowhere . Maybe your tight shorts squeezed your boys a little too much and you dont have masculine traits like that anymore, if you ever did. Youd rather run to your nearest easy way out and open your wallet.


OH SNAP


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Malibu412 said:


> Sounds like the lever was pulled before the rotor was in place so it "self-adjusted" to a point thinner than the rotor. Pretty simple to use a spacer tool of some sort to push the pistons back out to clear the rotor. Only time you should open up the system is for an actual bleed with a bleed kit/tools and following the steps.
> 
> Hydros, once set up, self-adjust until the pads are worn. You never have to touch any adjustment feature, if equipped so, unless you want to. How is that more trouble than having to adjust pad clearance with cable actuated brakes every ride or couple rides? I have both, btw, so I kinda understand how this works.
> 
> If you get them bled and adjusted properly, give them time. Then, go back to cables if you don't like them.


I tried the spacer and a flathead screwdriver before removing some hydraulic fluid and it wouldnt budge for me. It was to the point I was afraid of breaking it.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

nachomc said:


> OH, one time? Well, then, you are clearly an expert.
> 
> I am by no means whatsoever claiming to be an expert.. Just saying for me I didnt notice much. Maybe I would over time, and since it looks Ill be keeping these brakes for a while Im sure Ill find out. Maybe even an expert one day, probably not but one can hope.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

*Malfunctioning Brakes are Worthless*

I have always been the curmudgeon of our group. I resisted disc brakes until I experienced soaking wet V-brakes on a grassy ski slope and could barely slow down. It was an epic descent.

When I went to disks, I poo pooed the hydraulics and bought BB7's because I knew a light rider who melted a hydraulic brake hose and lost his front brake. Another guy broke a fitting on the reservoir and couldn't continue on the trail we were on.

The BB7's (with metallic pads) were "the thing" for me until I ended up on the Thunder Rock Express downhill at the Ocoee Whitewater center in TN in the rain (lots of sandy soil with mica) and the pads wore down before I got to the bottom. Without self-adjustment I had to crank out the barrel adjuster at the lever because the lever was already to the grip (The idea of actually stopping to dial in the calipers never entered my mind since I was chasing a bunch of other guys :madman.

I finally sprung for some dual piston Hopes. They are probably way overkill and overpriced, but they feel like butter... and I bled them with a squeeze bottle when I shortened the hoses, so bleeding brakes is really not equipment-intensive. The thing is, I don't think either the V's, the BB7's, or the Hopes are any stronger than the others in dry conditions. Of course, the V's melt at high speed, and I don't think the BB7's have super good feel until you're going really fast and they're hot. But they both work well for 90% of everything. The hydraulics seem to work that good under every condition.

-F


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

yakyakgoose said:


> You continue to miss the point. Even set up, the amount of up front cost and continued cost and maintence isnt worth THE marginal benefit TO ME.


So you ordered hydros without test riding a bike equipped with them, and as far as I can tell you haven't fixed them so you can't have ridden them yet...

so you're basing your opinion of hydros on what exactly?

I suspect you did test ride a bike with hydros, but you're not willing to accept responsibility for your purchase now that something has gone wrong. Honestly, this was never about mechanical vs hydraulic brakes for you.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Caffeine Powered said:


> So you ordered hydros without test riding a bike equipped with them, and as far as I can tell you haven't fixed them so you can't have ridden them yet...
> 
> so you're basing your opinion of hydros on what exactly?
> 
> I suspect you did test ride a bike with hydros, but you're not willing to accept responsibility for your purchase now that something has gone wrong. Honestly, this was never about mechanical vs hydraulic brakes for you.


False, the bike I purchased was 100% about the fork and shifters and other components. I looked up the brakes and knew they werent top of the line. I figured I'd ride them until they broke....didnt expect to have issues so soon. I have no regrets on the bike I those even if I replace the brakes. I just want to ride the thing.

As for experience, read back through the thread. I dont feel like retyping.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

There are certain companies I've always had trouble with over the years, with just crappy quality control/design.

To name a few,

Crank Brothers (top of my list)
Kenda Tires
Avid
SRAM

Some have gotten better (SRAM in some respects), some not so much. Avid QC has always been piss-poor for me. It doesn't matter if they're making a hydro brake or a mech brake. The mechs I had (BB7s) were terrible. On rough descents the pad adjusters would BACK OUT, severely limiting my braking ability and sometimes giving me no braking. This is different from the problem of the pads wearing down significantly on a long downhill and needing to be adjusted, which also happened often. They had good "stopping power", but would glaze over rather easily with the 160mm rotors and then again, leave me with poor stopping power. The pad adjuster (round dial) itself flew off on a rough descent, never to be found again. The pads wouldn't last but a couple months at the most for me as well. I attribute some of this to grippy-pad material that makes the brakes "seem" very good, but leads to some of the above problems of overheating and wearing fast. Then there was the issue of replacing the cables after a season or so, due to them getting gunky, which happens with normal use, then just the normal aspect of the pads not being self-adjusting like hydro brakes, and so on. 

Then I got some newer avids for a different bike, Codes, and these were also pretty poor. Turkey-warble/extreme vibration when braking. This isn't a bit of squeal, but the result of a poorly designed system. Happens on more than one type of avid brakes, rarely on other manufacturers. I had to use totally different rotors, but even then when switching to new pads I'd get the extreme vibration. So bad I had to jump off the bike, not kidding. Poor lever design that makes it difficult to impossible to get at the reach adjustment (you'd think this would have been solved by now). Getting new pads back in is pretty challenging as well, not "drop in" like my hope M4s. 

Sorry about your experience with avid hydros, I've heard countless other experiences that are similar, but it's usually avid, not hydros that causes this. I have shimanos on one bike (solid) and the hopes on another (solid since 2005). The avids are the worst I've used, and I've used most everything.

MOST hydros are simple mechanical designs. Fairly foolproof. You do have to understand the concept of bleeding and where to add the fluid (top vs bottom) if you want to do this yourself, but it's no different than with a car or motorcycle, actually easier because you can just use a plastic syringe and the others usually require power-bleeders due to the amount of fluid needed. As a bike mechanic, I've seen broken cables before, so I know the ole "what if you break your hydraulic line" scenario isn't really valid, if you break your cable you're just as screwed. Hydros are better in just about every way, much cheaper these days too, but get them from a reputable company. Avid makes a lot of brakes, heck that in itself is probably a warning flag, that they've had so many different models in the last 7 years.

So should I "upgrade" the hydro brakes on my car to cables if the mechs are better? haha.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

Hydraulic brakes are certainly not worthless. The ability to self center on the rotor would make them priceless in my book as dialing in any mechanical caliper can be time consuming. 

OP: I would get that caliper fixed then go out and ride before offering such an opinion.


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## Pisgah (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm afraid if you simply drained some hydraulic fluid, you will most likely need to bleed the system entirely. The line probably now has air bubbles. I have been using hydraulics since 97. While I have not used mechanicals, I can say I am happy with hydraulics. They do give you trouble from time to time, and require more mechanical knowledge with respect to bleeding, but you don't have serious problems with grime in the lines as you might get with mechanicals. Moreover, they are powerful as heck.

I have had trouble with Avids though. But my Hayes HFXs work really well. To bad they are no longer available.


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## vanamees (Oct 10, 2009)

Most hydraulic disc brakes problems are caused by users ignorance.


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## captainjoon (Aug 11, 2009)

I believe that the biggest issues with anything complex is the knowledge of the person using them. Small portions of the issues are either due to poor engineering or defects.

For defects, the answers are simple: Return or exchange.

If the issues are due to poor engineering, the product will not last long out in the market. Hydraulics have been around for a very long time so there is no way that they are products of poor engineering, unless you're narrowing down to specific brands and models. SO, you can say "My Elixer 3 SUX!" but you really can't say hydros suck.

If, somehow you've had problems with all the hydros that you've ever owned (and that you've owned more than 2 or 3), then I can safely say that there is nothing wrong with the hydros you've owned...but rather there's something wrong with you.

BTW, here's a couple of quick tips relating to hydraulic brakes:
- If the calipers have clamped shut, pry the pads open with a flat screw driver with light force while pumping the brake lever. Always works for me.
- When bleeding your brake system, make sure your caliper angle is at more than 30 degrees. I once tried to bleed a system with my bike on a work stand (the bike was angled down 45 degrees so the rear caliper was pretty much horizontal). No matter how much I tried, the system wouldn't properly bleed until I found out what the problem was.


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## vanamees (Oct 10, 2009)

esundell90 said:


> Your 1st problem is that Avid hydro disks are GARBAGE!! Repeat, GARBAGE. Crappy modulation, dumb streight blade lever that isn't ergonomic at all, mechanical issues, and kinda chincy build quality. I'd recommend a switch over to Shimano or Hayes.
> 
> Lots of people gripe about hydros but I've bled my Shimano M775's once a year, and I have NEVER had to touch them all season for the past 2 seasons. EVER! Much better than adjusting for cable strech in a mech brake system. Not to mention the increase in stopping power. 1 finger brakeing ftw.
> 
> I'd never use any other kind of brake again. Cables or rim.


 Avid brakes are just too complicated for some people.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

yakyakgoose said:


> Thanks for the informative reply, on mechaincals I occasionally had to dial the pads in and out if they started to run against the wheel. Nothing major, just tweeks. How does this happen with the hydraulics?


You don't need to adjust for pad wear on hydros. Self adjusting.

A good hydro is smoother than a good mech. It might be harder to setup, but once you've installed them correctly, it's a set and forget thing except change pads when you've worn them off (which you also need to do on mechs  ).

Give them a try and I really think that you'll like them. I know it's frustrating to have a new bike and something is avoiding you ride it, but aside from that, it should work great.


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## Biohazard74 (Jul 16, 2009)

vanamees said:


> Most hydraulic disc brakes problems are caused by users ignorance.


:drumroll::thumbsup:


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## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

Biohazard74 said:


> I have Avid Elixer r's and haven't had to do anything to them in the 2 years ive had them. Maybe about 1500 miles. Modulation is awesome and Have yet to fail me. Altghough it took a bit to get them right when i got them but when i got it right they were amazing and still feel great after 2 years


To be fair, I have not tried any CR's, or XX's or whatever, (Too rich for my blood) lol, but the elixer 3's, and 5's that I've used, no offense, suck. Normally I am a SRAM guy too for just about everything else, but I have to hand it to Shimano on their brakes, they rule. It's funny too because Avid Mech's and Rim brakes are pretty damn awesome and I have 0 complaints about my SD7 rim brakes on my K2 or the BB7's I had on my old Jamis Dakar. 


Call_me_Tom said:


> I have both Mech & Hydro, for the riding I do, I don't notice a difference. The maintenece of hydros is a little daunting.


The maintenance on Hydro's isn't as daunting as you think. Ever bled brakes on a car? Same thing, but easier, since you don't need 2 people.

All you have to remember really is that hydraulic systems are closed systems, and you need to get all the air out. Squeeze your lever, crack the bleeder nut till fluid stops commin out, close the nut, release the lever. This prevents air from getting sucked back into the system so you don't have bubbles. Also keep an eye on the fluid in your resivior, because if it sucks in air, you'll need to re-bleed all over again to get that bubble out.

You can also buy the bleeder kits which make it a bit easier for the newbie. I'd recommend those to someone new to the concept and care of hydraulic systems, or if you're like me and get lazy.

Don't fear the hydraulics, embrace them.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Dion said:


> I've had hydraulics that have worked flawlessly before, but I truly prefer mechanical disc brakes. Easy peasy - no hassle with bleeding, hose lengths and overall price of purchase and upkeep.


I got tired of adjusting the non moving pad to keep the squealing under control.....a long time ago.


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

yakyakgoose said:


> Thanks for the informative reply, on mechaincals I occasionally had to dial the pads in and out if they started to run against the wheel. Nothing major, just tweeks. How does this happen with the hydraulics?


You can get hydraulic brakes that you can dial the pads out as well. It's known as a closed system, the majority of brakes on the market are open, meaning when fluid expansion occurs due to heat, a diaphram in the master cylinder compensates for the fluid expansion. With closed the pads get pushed up against the rotor when fluid expansion occurs. They have a dial on the MC to dial the pads out.
Mechanicals have one side of the piston fixed while the other side isn't. Think of it as a single piston brake.
The self adjusting feature on hydro's is the "diaphram", nothing more.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

yakyakgoose said:


> Im just pretty pissed that I have a brand new bike sitting in my livingroom that cant be used right before a planned mountainbike trip.


Pay someone to fix it for you then! :thumbsup:


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## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

I've actually had nothing but good luck w/ Avid hydros, although I guess they have been somewhat higher end. The Juicy 7's on my last bike had very minimal maintenance (maybe bled and replaced pads 3 or 4 times) for 7 years. And I was way over-working them, being a clyde riding lots of downhill trails on 160 rotors. They would start to fade at the end of a long downhill ride, say, losing 5k ft elevation. A few years ago, I finally overheated the back to the point that the seals blew out. The lbs said it would either be a couple hundred to replace the seals, or they could put a BB7 on for about $75. I choose the latter. The mech works pretty darn good, too, although I prefer the feel of the hydro.

Can't complain about the CRs on my Enduro, either, although I haven't done more than 1k vert on them yet.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

yakyakgoose said:


> Bit of a rant here...but I received the bike I ordered yesterday and the rear wheel was frozen because the rear Avid Elixir 3 brake was clamped down on the disk. So i started my research and several people said to use the spacer to pry them apart..Tried that and didnt help at all. So then I looked on the Avid site and it said in extremely rare cases there is too much fluid in the lines and to bleed them. So after searching 30 minutes online to find where the screw is to do this since the included manual is complete crap I figure that out. I bled it out little by little using the spacer to push the pads apart. I got them to the point that they are farther apart but still the disc skips lightly on the rim. And even with this marginal accomplishment there is now no power in the brake lever up front cause I had to remove so much oil.(Which is also corrosive and gave me some minor chemical burns on my finger tips)
> 
> What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting.
> 
> ...





yakyakgoose said:


> I see your point about the rarity of brake failures. The brakes and frame are def the cheap things on this bike, but the rest of the components are high end, (x9's, reba fork etc. ) I was aware I'd replace the brakes eventually, but key word EVENTUALLY.  I messed with this thing for hours and almost whacked it with a hammer at one point.
> 
> Im used to being able to fix/figure out things, and this stumping me irritated the heck out of me. Its also a 10 speed and I cant seem to get the gears to work right. Seems to be pretty sensitive where you fix one issue and it causes another.
> 
> I am willing to admit defeat and called a bike store I usually buy from and they said theyll fix it up on friday if I can get it in today. They also said theyd let me watch so I can figure out what I was doing wrong.


Ok so you have solved your problem but here is what you need to do. When you are at the LBS get a bleed kit for your brakes. Watch them do whatever they need to do but when you return from your trip go online and download sram's instructions for bleeding brakes. Then do so. Get some experience before you need it. If you screw it up, try again.

Then remember these basic tenants:


Disk brake fluid ruins pads, if you got it on your pads replace them before your trip.
disk brake fluid ruins paint. If you got it on your paint, remove it now with rubbing alcohol.
Once set, disk brake fluid is very benign, but if you ride in wet conditions it will slowly absorb water through seals and the environment being hydrophilic. Plan on bleeding once a year in wet conditions.
if the lever ever feels spongy, it probably has air in it somewhere, follow the instructions and rebleed.
if your rotor touches the caliper the rotor was probably bent in shipping. You can remedy this by doing tiny little tweaks on it using an adjustable wrench or even your hands. Just like truing a wheel work in tiny increments until it is good.
like any technology it will need maintenance and the more advanced the technology the more advanced the maintenance but the pay off will be a system that only requires maintenance after long durations and routine maintenance will be replacing brake pads as needed.

I have gone as long as 3 years between bleeding my formula brakes, only replacing the rear shoes when they started to get noisy and that is 3 times bleeding over the last nine years. Not bad maintenance if you think about it.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

This is my First Stint with Hydro's, I heard horror stories and all the "but what if you get a hole or other problem your brakes are usless" same as if a cable happens to break on mechanical, you lose brakes in one wheel, not the end of the world.
I had mechanical before, they were fine, I would own again but I just like how much easier it is to squeeze hydros.

Good for yak to swallow his pride and take his bike in. Who cares what they say about you when your gone, what matters is you getta rock your ride and enjoy yourself 



> What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting.


When you go on a downhill that is several miles long you will change your opinion on that pretty quickly.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

moved


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Pfffffftttttt.......who needs brakes anyway.....all they do is slow you down.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

physics wise, hydraulic is more efficient then the simple ball and ramp method of most typical mechanical disk brake calipers. more power with less effort and i believe hydro takes the high temperatures much easier. i don't recall seeing to many mechanical disks on downhill bikes. i'm not trying to put down mechanical as i have them on my xc homegrown but for the straight8, it's hydro all the way! i think mechanical is better for xc type riding where one isn't grabbing a hand full of brake on a constant basis


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## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

i like my stringy Avid 8" disc brake on my Bullit.

FWIW, aouble of LBS wrenches saus Shimano disc are good, with mineral goo.


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## OmaHaq (Jun 1, 2010)

After reading through this, I need to correct something:

Full 2.0 brake cable normally does not "stretch". What happens is 
1. The housing compresses in termination points.
2. The cable may have slipped.
3. The pads are worn enough that the cable needs to be tightened.

2mm stainless aircraft cable hardly stretches at all over long runs. 2ft runs, there isn't any. Mechanical discs come down to house selection, pad selection, and setup. Any fade you feel is the housing or pads.

There is nothing wrong with hydros, and I prefer a $$$ set of hydros over BB7's or BB5's. But there is nothing wrong with a good set of mech's. They are cheaper and usually easier to setup, and are field repairable.

Run what you want. I run BB7's and a BB5 just about everyday.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

OmaHaq said:


> 2mm stainless aircraft cable hardly stretches at all over long runs. 2ft runs, there isn't any. Mechanical discs come down to house selection, pad selection, and setup. Any fade you feel is the housing or pads.


Whatever, whether it's the housing or the cable, end result is the same. Student's I work with yank the aircraft throttle to "test idle" all day long, "stretching" the cable, causing the engine to idle lower and lower, over time eventually it quits when they "pull" it to idle.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

OmaHaq said:


> After reading through this, I need to correct something:
> 
> Full 2.0 brake cable normally does not "stretch". What happens is
> 1. The housing compresses in termination points.
> ...


inner brake cable is 1.6mm typically. 1.2mm for shift cables.

BMX companies came out with "compressionless" cable housing a few years back. I haven't seen it on a mtb other than my own yet, but presumably this hasn't been missed in the mtb world. its basically overbuilt derailleur housing. Odyssey Linear cables were the first to exist as far as I know. Definitely a good way to improve brake power, and you can do bar spins without affecting your braking!


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

This thread reminds me of MTV's Beavis and Butt-Head in Virtual Stupidity - PC Windows - YouTube


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## ZXFT (Oct 17, 2010)

Caffeine Powered said:


> Nope, LBS, online vendors, craigslist, ebay all have their place in providing bikes.
> 
> You're the unhappy child because you'd rather type out a rant about how it's an inanimate object's fault when it's your lack of mechanical skills and judgment that's the problem.


If youre going to buy your bike online you better have the mechanical skills to work on it w/o running crying to a bike shop every time your derailleur slips out of alignment. This comes from personal experience. My first bike was an LBS bike that I tore apart and rebuilt to "overhaul" it (but it was just so I could learn about it and give it a through cleaning while I was at it). Then, once I felt confident with my wrenching skills I ordered a bike from PricePoint to save some $$$. And I havent looked back since.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I have XTR hydro brakes. Very little maintenance. Works great. One finger braking. 

I've never had a mechanical brake so I can't compare, but I'm quite happy with my brakes.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

Maybe the tittle of this thread should be changed to "Rim brakes are worthless" as we all can probable agree on that subject.


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## trekremedy (Apr 27, 2012)

till your going down a hill your pads are wet and you need to stop quicky you will wish you had disk brakes


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I have two bikes with mullets. bb7's up front/v-brakes in the back. so maybe not all of us.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Kona0197 said:


> Maybe the tittle of this thread should be changed to "Rim brakes are worthless" as we all can probable agree on that subject.


I doubt it. Worthless is too strong a word.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

I see some negative value in hydraulic brakes on the rear wheel. If people more commonly ran smaller rotors in the rear, the problem would be reduced. 

the problem: skidding down hills. folks with hydraulic brakes seem to do this a lot and its bad for the trail in most cases. 

Skidding your rear wheel to whip your bike around a turn is one thing: a skillful maneuver that can make you faster. Skidding your rear wheel to help slow you down is ineffective and characteristic of poor skills or the wrong equipment (like too big of a rotor).


The trails I ride are intentionally minimally maintained, though the abundance of miles and lack of riders certainly helps. A big benefit other than being prepared for the many miles of leaf covered trails we have further north in the mountans, is that you can ride the trails in the rain without worrying about erosion. Whenever somebody offers to sweep them off, we have to tell them "NO!", as one can go to a few mtb parks and find nicely swept leisure trails suitable for use only in dry weather. Unfortunately, there're a few places where the skidders will pile up pine needles and leaves that they drag down a hill behind them. I'd call it rude, but its probably more about ignorance. Makes me think one ought to "earn" hydraulic stoppers to prevent folks from using their rear wheel like one would a boat anchor.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

PretendGentleman said:


> I see some negative value in hydraulic brakes on the rear wheel. If people more commonly ran smaller rotors in the rear, the problem would be reduced.
> 
> the problem: skidding down hills. folks with hydraulic brakes seem to do this a lot and its bad for the trail in most cases.
> 
> ...


I'll second this. I got a set of brakes off of Ebay and they came with 8" rotors. I used them for a short period on a Santa Cruz Bullit, then I swapped them to a El Mariachi and used them there. The rear was always like an on off switch but since i was riding rigid I rarely used the rear anyway. However I finally got a 6" adapter for the rear and realized that I could be using the rear much more effectively. It is now much more easy to modulate, has less locking bite but a far greater braking range.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

PretendGentleman said:


> I see some negative value in hydraulic brakes on the rear wheel. If people more commonly ran smaller rotors in the rear, the problem would be reduced.
> 
> the problem: skidding down hills. folks with hydraulic brakes seem to do this a lot and its bad for the trail in most cases.
> 
> ...


Following around the local SS/29er HT crowd a lot, I see this happen more frequently with cable (mech) disc brakes, not as much with hydros. Just being honest.

The whole point about V brakes is that they have tons of power, think about how big the "disc" is on that system. Leverage depends on setup, then there's pad material, and so on, but having enough "power" was only an issue when it was wet/contaminated or the rims had glazed-over. Usually they had enough power to "lock" and the poor modulation caused that skidding just as easy, if not easier than anything else.


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## pcmark (Jul 10, 2010)

Kona0197 said:


> Maybe the tittle of this thread should be changed to "Rim brakes are worthless" as we all can probable agree on that subject.


I had some Magura hydraulic rim brakes, and they worked great!:thumbsup: They close the trails here after rains so wet braking ability isn't really a problem.


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## TC (Dec 6, 2006)

*my take...*

i didn't read all replies, but here's my $.o2...

had the same issue with my elixir 5s...my mechanic told me they sometimes put too much fluid in at the factory.

just let a little fluid out and you'll be golden!

i've been very happy with my elixir 5s and 3s...way better modulation than the old juicy 5s i had.

i'll have to say I did like the adjustability of the bb5s i had at one time, but really no comparison to the hydro performance.


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## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

PretendGentleman said:


> the problem: skidding down hills. folks with hydraulic brakes seem to do this a lot and its bad for the trail in most cases.
> 
> Skidding your rear wheel to whip your bike around a turn is one thing: a skillful maneuver that can make you faster. Skidding your rear wheel to help slow you down is ineffective and characteristic of poor skills or the wrong equipment (like too big of a rotor).


OMG thank you for saying this!!

I got yelled at by some stickler on a group ride about skidding my rear on the bank of a BURMED corner!!

"Don't skid *******" he yells. I intentionally stop and tell him to **** off because I'm not a newb who locks up his brakes going into a turn and makes all the "Bumpies" as I call them before the corner. IDK if he's aware that skidding in burmed corners builds the burm??? Apparently this concept was forign to him and he insisted I am the reason the trails are in such shitty shape in some parts. I never lock em up going into a turn, in the apex, you jack the rear and swing it around.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

yakyakgoose said:


> You continue to miss the point. Even set up, the amount of up front cost and continued cost and maintence isnt worth THE marginal benefit TO ME. Even if I had bled them correctly and went and bought the kit (More $). And fixed it in 30 minutes I STILL would have thought "Jeez these are a PITA" Working on something trying to figure it out with limited resources for several hours isnt "rather just type a rant". Thats effort and trying to do something I'm unfamiliar with.
> 
> Who goes onto someone elses thread and starts running their mouth and calling grown adults a "child"? Luckily, I've received plenty of other responses that negate the hostility of your posts. You no doubt feel exceptional with your high post count on an online forum but maybe you should set an example.:thumbsup:


So, you made a poor choice in purchasing a bike with hydraulic brakes. That's what I keep reading. I don't disagree with your premise that they aren't worth your trouble so go buy a set of BB7's, have equipment you can wrench yourself and move on. Sell the hydraulics on craigslist once you've removed them. Hope this helps.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

since starting to ride in 1999 or so before disc brakes hit it big, one constant has been skid marks on the trails. it doesn't matter, folks with bad technique will skid. I wouldn't say that skidding to whip the rear end around a curve is "good" technique, but it's a technique I see people use intentionally that increases the need for maintenance on the trails.

I use a 180 front 160 rear setup on my FSR and I really like the balance of the braking in that setup. I have had notable fade once with that setup, riding DH in Utah. I may have been able to avoid it with better technique. however as I understand it, many newer brakes have better heat dissipation capabilities to reduce fade, anyway. either way, I think it is a good setup that balances power (bigger rotor in the front) with modulation (smaller rotor in the rear).


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

esundell90 said:


> IDK if he's aware that skidding in burmed corners builds the burm???


I don't buy this idea, at least not for most situations. Typically berms are hard pack. Once you tear a layer off the surface, its pretty much impossible to get it to stick back. Much like with concrete, to have dirt pack in a competent manner, you have to start from wet dirt and build up a layer of it. Patching over packed dirt doesn't work and the added material just peels right off.

My experience is from years of dirt jump building as a bmxer. I've had numerous problems with people riding jumps and berms that are too wet or with people doing stuff on the jumps other than riding them as they were designed to be ridden.

A well built berm is an alternative to situations where you can benefit from skidding your back wheel around a turn. I can imagine why someone who spent a lot of time working on a trail would be upset if someone showed up and was skidding on a well-built berm. I'm not saying this is what happened to you, as its quite possible you were skidding on a poorly built berm.

If your berm is a pile of loose material, then perhaps you can add material to build it up by skidding in the right way.


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## Guerdonian (Sep 4, 2008)

I also did not read this whole thread, but the first two and last page, hehe.

My thoughts are these:

Hydraulic disk brakes are great in harsh conditions. The sealed system prevents silt, crap, water, mud, whatever from getting in the line, keeping consistent breaking power. The disks also are much better than rim for wet conditions in general, but it sounds like we are comparing hydraulic to mechanical disk.

When you have bled a few disk brake systems they are all relatively similar (some much better than others) and use the same process. Its a lot more scary sounding than it actually is in practice.

I feel that the hydraulics offer more power for single finger braking, and more modulation. I have not ridden mechanical disks in a LONG time, but the BB5's and BB7's from more than 5 years ago seemed to require more effort on sharp declines and technical sections.

The new Shimano brakes are a game changer IMO, whole nother level of braking power, its awesome. If you ever get a chance to ride these after they are properly set up, its amazing.


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## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

PretendGentleman said:


> I don't buy this idea, at least not for most situations. Typically berms are hard pack. Once you tear a layer off the surface, its pretty much impossible to get it to stick back. Much like with concrete, to have dirt pack in a competent manner, you have to start from wet dirt and build up a layer of it. Patching over packed dirt doesn't work and the added material just peels right off.
> 
> My experience is from years of dirt jump building as a bmxer. I've had numerous problems with people riding jumps and berms that are too wet or with people doing stuff on the jumps other than riding them as they were designed to be ridden.
> 
> ...


Well thats what I'm getting at. A hard pack good berm there is almost no reason to skid period, because you can corner harder with more speed into it.

The burms I typically "skid" on are loose, non-trail builder made burms. I've built trail too, and I know what muffs em up. and 99% of the time skid damage is caused my nuckleheads just locking the hell out of both tires going into a corner. Instead of cornering well, they go way too fast, lock the tires, then enter the corner. Thats where most of the trail damage comes from, that or erosion from natural causes or people riding on stuff when it's pea soup and not hardened up.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Ok so I took it to the bike shop and when I got it back the back brake still touches lightly. They told me that it should go away quickly as i use the bike. Does this sound right or should I contact the website I ordered from and get a new brake?


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

NateHawk said:


> since starting to ride in 1999 or so before disc brakes hit it big, one constant has been skid marks on the trails. it doesn't matter, folks with bad technique will skid.
> 
> I wouldn't say that skidding to whip the rear end around a curve is "good" technique, but it's a technique I see people use intentionally that increases the need for maintenance on the trails.


I agree...its not just hydraulic disc brakes with big rotors. Maybe even if you switch to smaller rotors and you have poor braking technique you just compensate by squeezing harder and skidding just as much.

And I agree that skidding around certain corners is not unambiguously good practice; the context is important. Where I ride I can't imagine a trail ever needing maintenance because of a well-timed skid to get around a tight corner However as I said before, where I ride the risk of nature taking over the trail is more of a concern than damage caused by a few skids.

However when skidding down a hill, there tends to be a big pile of duff stuck at the bottom that somebody has to climb through. This has not been an issue for me in turns where some folks (including myself) might execute a well-timed, speed increasing skid-turn.


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## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

The local trail crew maintains XC/AM type trails, but a lot of the free ride/DH runs here are TORE up, I think some of that might have to do with everyone thinking they're Sam Hill and shredding every corner they come across. To their credit tho, the FR/DH guys do all their own trail work on their own so I guess they can tear it up as much as they want, and they do a pretty good job of putting it back together.


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## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

yakyakgoose said:


> Ok so I took it to the bike shop and when I got it back the back brake still touches lightly. They told me that it should go away quickly as i use the bike. Does this sound right or should I contact the website I ordered from and get a new brake?


right after setup, my brakes almost always "lightly touch" and if it's really light (as in you can hear it on the stand, but not feel any drag during riding) i don't care at all. normally it will correct itself after a short time, most hydro pads are self adjusting. the 1% of the time that it doesn't, a quick readjustment of the caliper does fix it.

so yes, it's normal and in most cases isn't an issue at all.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I run 140 on the back with my mechanicals as they grab near lockup, usually in a panic stop when it is critical not to skid. Plus they tend to heat up more keeping them cleaner. Its pretty flat where I ride and rarely get much heat into them. 

Look at the pad clearance in the rear off the bike. Sit on the bike and check the clearance again. A lot of you will see that the caliper has moved relative to the rotor. This makes rear adjustment a pita. Larger rotors exacerbates this. My hydros will self adjust to this after a while. But then they rub when not on the bike.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

yakyakgoose said:


> Ok so I took it to the bike shop and when I got it back the back brake still touches lightly. They told me that it should go away quickly as i use the bike. Does this sound right or should I contact the website I ordered from and get a new brake?


The brake itself is probably fine. Is it rubbing all the time or intermittently? Sometimes a rotor will get bent a little bit so that it rubs at one point during the wheel's rotation. If this is the case, you can find the part of the rotor that is rubbing and try to straighten it out. If the brake is always rubbing, a number of things could be wrong. The caliper might not be aligned correctly or it's possible they need a full bleed. Of course, their might not even be a problem. Run the brakes for a while and see what happens. A little rub isn't a huge deal.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

yakyakgoose said:


> Ok so I took it to the bike shop and when I got it back the back brake still touches lightly. They told me that it should go away quickly as i use the bike. Does this sound right or should I contact the website I ordered from and get a new brake?


OK, don't quote me, but maybe look at your brake and try this. It worked on mine.

If the caliper is centered on the rotor, but the pads are off-center, causing a rub, I think you can just use your finger and flex your rotor toward the brake pad that is too close to the center. Pushing that pad "out" will cause the other pad to move "in" and your pads will be centered. Before you start make sure your wheel is all the way in the dropouts, caliper is tight, rotor bolts are not loose, etc...

Anyone else concur with this method?

-F


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

PretendGentleman said:


> I don't buy this idea, at least not for most situations. Typically berms are hard pack. Once you tear a layer off the surface, its pretty much impossible to get it to stick back. Much like with concrete, to have dirt pack in a competent manner, you have to start from wet dirt and build up a layer of it. Patching over packed dirt doesn't work and the added material just peels right off.
> 
> My experience is from years of dirt jump building as a bmxer. I've had numerous problems with people riding jumps and berms that are too wet or with people doing stuff on the jumps other than riding them as they were designed to be ridden.
> 
> ...


Actually the origin of a berm came from motocross. The more a track is ridden the bigger the berms get. In fact early on the berms weren't hand built but rather formed from numerous riders making laps. So yes a berm does get bigger from riding it correctly over and over. If there are dudes who use the berms as jumps which is not what they were meant for that will break the berm down. And as far as skidding around a berm that will build it faster but it is not necesary as just riding around it will build it up. of course in the motorcycle versus bike world a berm builds way quicker in the motorcycle world. In the bike world hand building berms to begin with is ideal and will build up bigger as more and more riders use it.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Actually the origin of a berm came from motocross. The more a track is ridden the bigger the berms get. In fact early on the berms weren't hand built but rather formed from numerous riders making laps. So yes a berm does get bigger from riding it correctly over and over. If there are dudes who use the berms as jumps which is not what they were meant for that will break the berm down. And as far as skidding around a berm that will build it faster but it is not necesary as just riding around it will build it up. of course in the motorcycle versus bike world a berm builds way quicker in the motorcycle world. In the bike world hand building berms to begin with is ideal and will build up bigger in time.


my experience with bicycles regarding the buildup of berms has been very different. Perhaps the volume of dirt pushed up the berm is totally different and maybe we have different soil types.

Based on my experience with both bmx and mtb, berms --especially steeper parts of them-- do not grow, not ever, without somebody picking up a shovel and putting in the work. Typically, people take a shortcut and try to patch bumpy sections. The next person to skid on the patches is almost certain to tear them off.

Berms that are sunken into the ground, which I've seen on a few downhills might be something of an exception, as by skidding, you're tending to dig it a big deeper. Nonetheless, I don't think that the material being removed has much of a tendency to accrete elsewhere.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

PretendGentleman said:


> my experience with bicycles regarding the buildup of berms has been very different. Perhaps the volume of dirt pushed up the berm is totally different and maybe we have different soil types.
> 
> Based on my experience with both bmx and mtb, berms --especially steeper parts of them-- do not grow, not ever, without somebody picking up a shovel and putting in the work. Typically, people take a shortcut and try to patch bumpy sections. The next person to skid on the patches is almost certain to tear them off.
> 
> Berms that are sunken into the ground, which I've seen on a few downhills might be something of an exception, as by skidding, you're tending to dig it a big deeper. Nonetheless, I don't think that the material being removed has much of a tendency to accrete elsewhere.


I'm sure the type of soil has allot to do with it. But I think you are right the amount of dirt a bike pushes is minimal. So it takes forever for the berm to actually grow. A motorcycle on the other hand it doesn't take very many laps to build the berm up.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

For the record, I didn't start this thread. Somehow MTBR made me the OP when I replied.

I still think v-brakes are just fine. Heck... canti's aren't bad when set-up right.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

Dion said:


> For the record, I didn't start this thread. Somehow MTBR made me the OP when I replied.
> 
> I still think v-brakes are just fine. Heck... canti's aren't bad when set-up right.


Until you add water and mud to the mix.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I went out on a ride today and it was a fairly technicle rocky unfamilier trail. All I could think of was this thread as I diced my way through the rocky sections of some knarly downhill. I could see where the OP got his opinion on hydro brakes. It sucked having my Hope Mini's hydro brakes six inch rotors front and back,that I have been running for 11 years. They modulated perfectly with zero skidding and stopped on a dime when needed. Basically the best brakes I have ever rode. Over the 11 years of use all I have ever done was change pads and bleed them twice. Sounds like a real pain in the ass over an 11 year span. I can see why someone would choose mechs over hydros *"NOT".*


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## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I went out on a ride today and it was a fairly technicle rocky unfamilier trail. All I could think of was this thread as I diced my way through the rocky sections of some knarly downhill. I could see where the OP got his opinion on hydro brakes. It sucked having my Hope Mini's hydro brakes six inch rotors front and back,that I have been running for 11 years. They modulated perfectly with zero skidding and stopped on a dime when needed. Basically the best brakes I have ever rode. Over the 11 years of use all I have ever done was change pads and bleed them twice. Sounds like a real pain in the ass over an 11 year span. I can see why someone would choose mechs over hydros *"NOT".*


Yeah I have had a set of shimano m485 hydraulic brakes (lower end brakes for those not familiar) on one of my bikes and I litterally haven't touched them in the 2.5 years I've had it. Several thousand miles, haven't touched it. yep, they are a real pain to take care of :skep:


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Dion said:


> Heck... canti's aren't bad when set-up right.


Arg. I hate working on those things.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I went out on a ride today and it was a fairly technicle rocky unfamilier trail. All I could think of was this thread as I diced my way through the rocky sections of some knarly downhill. I could see where the OP got his opinion on hydro brakes. It sucked having my Hope Mini's hydro brakes six inch rotors front and back,that I have been running for 11 years. They modulated perfectly with zero skidding and stopped on a dime when needed. Basically the best brakes I have ever rode. Over the 11 years of use all I have ever done was change pads and bleed them twice. Sounds like a real pain in the ass over an 11 year span. I can see why someone would choose mechs over hydros *"NOT".*


Change the fluid and you will notice a difference as well.


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

Kona0197 said:


> Until you add water and mud to the mix.


At that point you better know how to ride until the rims
are wiped clean by the pads. And yes, still using V-brakes, my
own choice. Shouldn't be riding the trails when there that crappy anyways.
Unless you get caught in unexpected weather.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Somehow we managed to get it done with Canti's and Vee's for quite some time before the advent of decent disc brakes.


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## arkon11 (Jul 26, 2009)

Guys, I have a statement to make.





Who gives a f**k. Let the OP, or whomever use their mechanical disk brakes, and let the rest of you use hydraulic. Who cares? You don't ***** about the effectiveness of the brakes on your neighbors car do you? Who gives a f*** what brakes other people are using as long as it works for them.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

Kona0197 said:


> Until you add water and mud to the mix.


Never had a problem drenched in cyclocross madness.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

Well then it must be a combination of rain and my clydesdale weight.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Kona0197 said:


> Well then it must be a combination of rain and my clydesdale weight.


You must use the brakes just as you would a car with drum brakes in the rain. Drag the brakes through the puddles, brake early and often, drag the brakes well before applying them in earnest. Pad compounds make a huge difference also.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

dammit, I just received my new XTR trail hydraulic disc brakes in the mail. I wish I had read that they are worthless before I ordered them. 

Good thing is Jenson has a great return policy!!!


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> You must use the brakes just as you would a car with drum brakes in the rain. Drag the brakes through the puddles, brake early and often, drag the brakes well before applying them in earnest. Pad compounds make a huge difference also.


Yes. I'm 215lbs. and pad choice makes a HUGE difference. I've had some brake pads that, when I pull the lever, I just keep going.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

> I've had some brake pads that, when I pull the lever, I just keep going.


This was my point. Some pads just don't stop like they should. Yes I know rim brakes work well when properly setup. I just think that rim brakes don't have the bite the disc has.

(Somehow managed to get negative rep for my response)


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

Kona0197 said:


> This was my point. Some pads just don't stop like they should. Yes I know rim brakes work well when properly setup. I just think that rim brakes don't have the bite the disc has.
> 
> (Somehow managed to get negative rep for my response)


You probably got neg becuase your post infers that v's don't work in the wet and mud, then you back pedal to try to save face after acouple of other users post the correct info. I see a pattern of this in your posts.


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

@RS: Well maybe I should have said:



> In my experience rim brakes have a difficult time stopping my bike in the mud and rain. Disc stop my bike much better in adverse weather conditions.


And I probably should have added that when set up properly, yes, rim brakes work very well.

I just word things incorrectly, but my mind is thinking the right way.


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

*brakes*


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## Koppuh Klyde (Jul 13, 2010)

I gotta subscribe to this one! 

FWIW cantis were great for me 20 years ago. BB5s are great for me now. Im <250 lbs now. Being a smart n00b kept me from getting a bike that would be too difficult to work on myself. To me that meant no rear suspension and no hydraulic BRAKES. Good luck OP (not Dion )


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Dion said:


> Yes. I'm 215lbs. and pad choice makes a HUGE difference. I've had some brake pads that, when I pull the lever, I just keep going.


And that's how chamois gets skid marks.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Blurr said:


> Change the fluid and you will notice a difference as well.


Well yeah whenever I bleed the lines I do a fluid change. Basically these brakes are hassle free and work like a charm.


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## Pollution Warrior (Apr 3, 2010)

yakyakgoose said:


> Overall point, these things seem over complicated for doing the exact same thing a more reliable, adjustable, cheaper, lower maintenance mechanical disk brake can do.
> 
> End Rant


Ditto. That's why I use BB7's. There's a learning curve with them too, but they are cheap, great, and simple. I used a DH bike in Thailand once with some sort of Avid hydros. IMO they weren't any better and didn't feel much (or any) better than my BB7's.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Brakes did wear in after a couple hour ride, just in case some one else runs into the same problem. Also my first trip on an air fork vs coil....amazing, its like butter. 

I also came across this whole rep message thing on my profile. The mostly juvenile comments brought a smile to my face, none very creative but what was lacking in wit was made up for in sheer numbers. Im proud of my little meaningless red electronic dot. 

That being said thanks to those of you who helped/ said something positive.


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## Riled (May 1, 2012)

*Agree in principle, but not enough to "rant"*

tl;dr: cost (total cost, not just money)/benefit to me isn't there. This feels like another technology useful for particular riding types (FR/DH/Trials) thrust on the rest for the sake of component company profits.

I've used brakes of all (?) types: old caliper, V, mechanical disk, hydraulic disc. I haven't used any disc systems over 160mm and I just ride I guess what would be considered cross country (just so you know where I'm coming from).

For me and my riding type, discs aren't logical. Once it is possible to lock up a wheel with one finger at speed, there is no further need for a heavier, costlier, finikier, tempermentaler, complexeter braking system. That point for me and my sub-28 lb bike occurred well and truly at the V-brake era. Technically, the old-calipers could too if I recalibrated them every 10 minutes (hence the problem and need for the Vs).

Hydraulic discs have narrowed the gap in many of the shortcoming areas that make them worse than Vs, but they haven't closed any of the gaps that I'm aware of. They are still much more expensive on average, they are still quite a bit heavier, they are still a teeny bit more error prone (or the failures are rare but more often of the catastrophic type), they will forever remain more complex from a mechanical standpoint (but they are better now than originally). I take one thing back though, I don't think they're more finiky anymore. From what I've seen, the new ones are great at self adjusting. As long as they don't leak, they are not very finiky (the Vs could be a little bit finiky, but well within reason).

I totally see the benefit of hydraulic discs for the edge case of Downhill. Course downhillers aren't running 160mm that was thrust on the rest of us, cause they don't care about weight or cost or complexity and can get the *real* stopping power discs can give to their very heavy bikes flying down a mountain. Just because a technolgy is a great solution for an edge case doesn't mean it applies in any way shape or form when you move away from the edge. You still don't see bike makers trying hard to sell dual suspension to road bikes, cause it's just to crazy to sell.

Course, when something isn't _too _crazy to sell, CHA-CHING! As you are all well aware, just try to find a high end front fork or frame with mounts for any brakes other than disc. Pretty damn hard. That's why I say "thrust upon the rest of us" and stand by it. This is what has lately been driving me a little nuts about biking: technology as fashion. It's like finding the latest trendiest technology that you can market well but actually has dubious or marginal performance differences (or more trade-offs than benefits) and capitalizing on it. Bike building is incredibly complex now with 18 different "standards" for each component. Just try to change a bottom bracket and figure out WTH is going on with that I challenge you. It's a freaking axle and a crank arm people!

Ok, I lied, I did rant a little. But the rant is really about this tech as fashion that is fracturing the MTB landscape too much for little to no benefit to anyone but those who get to sell us a new standard every 3 months. I actually kinda like the hydraulic discs that I have now. I would go back to Vs in a heartbeat, but since I didn't have that choice, I feel that disc technology has narrowed enough gaps now that I can live with it. Course, I held out for about 8 years for discs, so I got to skip all the growing pains.

Just my 2 cents.


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## SpinDirt (Feb 22, 2007)

Pollution Warrior said:


> Ditto. That's why I use BB7's. There's a learning curve with them too, but they are cheap, great, and simple. I used a DH bike in Thailand once with some sort of Avid hydros. IMO they weren't any better and didn't feel much (or any) better than my BB7's.


So this makes you an expert in comparing having rode one bike on one ride with hydro brakes. Please read this thread in it's entirety and get back with us.


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## Sean K (Mar 25, 2012)

Riled said:


> tl;dr: cost (total cost, not just money)/benefit to me isn't there. This feels like another technology useful for particular riding types (FR/DH/Trials) thrust on the rest for the sake of component company profits.
> 
> I've used brakes of all (?) types: old caliper, V, mechanical disk, hydraulic disc. I haven't used any disc systems over 160mm and I just ride I guess what would be considered cross country (just so you know where I'm coming from).
> 
> ...


No, just no.

I'll give you that mechanical discs can work 90% as well as hydraulic for most people most of the time...

...However, I must disagree on your statements on V-Brakes (or any other wheel pinchers.)

Pinching a soft aluminum rim is flat-out piss-poor design and was always a crummy solution that was only suitable for bicycles because of their relatively low speeds and weight.

Disc or even drum brakes are lightyears better from an engineering perspective. They eliminate any issues from a wheel being slightly out of true and do not heat up a rim, potentially causing overheating and unseating of a tire (especially on long descents.)

Clinchers were and will never be an optimal design, merely a 'good-enough' compromise method to halt a bicycle.

With that said, the UCI is stupid for not yet 'allowing' discs on roadbikes as well.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Sean K said:


> With that said, the UCI is stupid for not yet 'allowing' discs on roadbikes as well.


UCI Allows Disc Brakes in International Competition. - Cyclocross Magazine


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Riled said:


> tl;dr: cost (total cost, not just money)/benefit to me isn't there. This feels like another technology useful for particular riding types (FR/DH/Trials) thrust on the rest for the sake of component company profits.
> 
> I've used brakes of all (?) types: old caliper, V, mechanical disk, hydraulic disc. I haven't used any disc systems over 160mm and I just ride I guess what would be considered cross country (just so you know where I'm coming from).
> 
> ...


So you joined the site today under a different name to make a rant.


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## Sean K (Mar 25, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> UCI Allows Disc Brakes in International Competition. - Cyclocross Magazine


Not for road; yet...


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

Pollution Warrior said:


> I used a DH bike in Thailand once with some sort of Avid hydros. IMO they weren't any better and didn't feel much (or any) better than my BB7's.


Like any brake, if they're not set up properly to begin with they'll feel like crap. But if you feel better about your mechanical brakes, by all means stick with them.

Hydros are the way to go. Every other means of transportation uses hydraulic systems.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Caffeine Powered said:


> Like any brake, if they're not set up properly to begin with they'll feel like crap. But if you feel better about your mechanical brakes, by all means stick with them.
> 
> Hydros are the way to go. Every other means of transportation uses hydraulic systems.


Exactly!


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So you joined the site today under a different name to make a rant.


If your referring to me, false. My email is already flooded enough and Ive never been to Thailand...yet.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

yakyakgoose said:


> If your referring to me, false. My email is already flooded enough and Ive never been to Thailand...yet.


Actually I was referring to Riled. That is why if you look at my post his post is within it. Like yours here. Thats how this works.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Actually I was referring to Riled. That is why if you look at my post his post is within it. Like yours here. Thats how this works.


Right, you quoted the new members message, so were not sure who the old member is your referring to. :thumbsup:


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

yakyakgoose said:


> Right, you quoted the new members message, so were not sure who the old member is your referring to. :thumbsup:


Thats because it's a mystery to all of us. Some guys will get another handle just to rant away. Or it could be a legit new member I was just guessing. Most new members don't start out with a rant.


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## Sean K (Mar 25, 2012)

Caffeine Powered said:


> Like any brake, if they're not set up properly to begin with they'll feel like crap. But if you feel better about your mechanical brakes, by all means stick with them.
> 
> Hydros are the way to go. Every other means of transportation uses hydraulic systems.


Well, there's a reason for that. The primary advantage of hydraulic actuation is that even over long runs (distances) power and modulation for the most part remains unchanged. Also, running hydraulic lines is much easier, as engineers do not have to take into account any minimum turn radius or maximum number of bends as they would have to with cables to ensure free movement.

On an aircraft, automobile or train, many times the caliper is many feet from the primary cylinder/actuator. To make cables work in those applications, they would be prohibitively thick and heavy, not to mention requiring constant re-adjustment for stretch due to their length.

On a bicycle, most of those issues are not present. The actuator to caliper runs are usually less than 6 feet. And therefore, cable stretch is also not much of a factor, since a 6' 1.2mm cable may only ultimately stretch about 1/4 inch total over it's lifespan.

Also, on a bicycle is where the inherent advantages of a cable actuated system come into play. Firstly, field ruggedness/repairability. A cable actuated disc system doesn't need anything but perhaps a spare cable and section of housing for field repair. Second, compared to some mid to low end hydraulic systems, there are no potential thermal/boil off issues with cable actuated.

So, sure, cable discs have their place, and I feel that there should be more and higher-end choices; As surely the Avid BB7 isn't the pinnacle of whats possible in mechanical disc brake design.


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## patrick2cents (Apr 30, 2010)

having ridden a number of each (as most here have) I find that the only advantage mechs have is an appearance of being simple. I say appearance, because to the average joe it looks easier. The reality always seems to be the opposite. I, and most others I ride with, have hydraulics; and they have worked flawlessly over long periods of time. the few that come with mechanicals always seem to have some sort of issues (one fellow in particular has BB5's and I've had to fix/readjust those a number of times). 

If you aren't particularly mechanically inclined, it blows my mind that you would choose mech's, since they require WAY more adjusting and fiddling with to work right.

edit: from an engineering perspective, fluids that are (near) incompressible are a far far better choice for transmitting pressure in the way that brakes do than is a cable/mechanical assembly.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

A stick in the spokes locks a wheel better than just about anything, although I'll admit this stopping method is a bit touchy and not for everyone.


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## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

Sean K said:


> Well, there's a reason for that. .


 Thanks. You didn't need to tell me I'm right.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Riled said:


> tl;dr: cost (total cost, not just money)/benefit to me isn't there. This feels like another technology useful for particular riding types (FR/DH/Trials) thrust on the rest for the sake of component company profits.
> 
> I've used brakes of all (?) types: old caliper, V, mechanical disk, hydraulic disc. I haven't used any disc systems over 160mm and I just ride I guess what would be considered cross country (just so you know where I'm coming from).
> 
> ...


This guy still has a 1" steerer tube and threaded headset.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

riled said:


> tl;dr: Cost (total cost, not just money)/benefit to me isn't there. This feels like another technology useful for particular riding types (fr/dh/trials) thrust on the rest for the sake of component company profits.
> 
> I've used brakes of all (?) types: Old caliper, v, mechanical disk, hydraulic disc. I haven't used any disc systems over 160mm and i just ride i guess what would be considered cross country (just so you know where i'm coming from).
> 
> ...


tl/dr


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

SeanK said

No, just no.

I'll give you that mechanical discs can work 90% as well as hydraulic for most people most of the time...

...However, I must disagree on your statements on V-Brakes (or any other wheel pinchers.)

Pinching a soft aluminum rim is flat-out piss-poor design and was always a crummy solution that was only suitable for bicycles because of their relatively low speeds and weight.

Disc or even drum brakes are lightyears better from an engineering perspective. They eliminate any issues from a wheel being slightly out of true and do not heat up a rim, potentially causing overheating and unseating of a tire (especially on long descents.)

Clinchers were and will never be an optimal design, merely a 'good-enough' compromise method to halt a bicycle.


With that said, the UCI is stupid for not yet 'allowing' discs on roadbikes as well.



Wow, I never had a tire blow because my rim got to hot, and got news for you,
all us riders who used V-brakes( and still do) ride just as fast as the disc brake users.
It's all in knowing when to apply the brakes, and when to let em go.
It's amazing that manufacturers still sell merely good-enough brake systems.
Not trying to dog ya, DH runs I understand the limitations, but everything else
I believe a good set of V-brakes can handle, in the proper hands.
__________________


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

ThePicnic said:


> I'm going to waste my first post with a lame attempt at trolling. Discuss.


FIFY.


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## ThePicnic (May 2, 2012)

I think brakes are for Wussies altogether, discuss.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

ThePicnic said:


> I think brakes are for Wussies altogether, discuss.


I think wussies are for brakes... unravel....


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

There is one thing I don't understand about hydro brakes. Price. Why is it they are still so expensive? Even the BB7 has come down in price since it's inception. Some of the hydro brakes are still expensive.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

nachomc said:


> This guy still has a 1" steerer tube and threaded headset.


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

ThePicnic said:


> I think brakes are for Wussies altogether, discuss.


Yeah, you're right -- a REAL MAN is defined by the amount of gravel/dirt/debris embedded in his flesh by using his face as a stopper.....

BTW, I wipe my @$$ on the trail with poison oak...... My $hit is so toxic, it kills the plant before it can infect me.


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

I've TESTED hydros at the LBS, and while I like the ease of lever throw, I prefer what I can get out of the BB7; ceramic pads and XTR cables bring them awfully close together in performance. The downhill that would cramp up my hands would have to be DAMNED long, as my brakes are set up for almost effortless lever pull.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Kona0197 said:


> There is one thing I don't understand about hydro brakes. Price. Why is it they are still so expensive? Even the BB7 has come down in price since it's inception. Some of the hydro brakes are still expensive.


Complexity and cost to manufacture are but a couple of reasons.


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## captainjoon (Aug 11, 2009)

Caffeine Powered said:


> Like any brake, if they're not set up properly to begin with they'll feel like crap. But if you feel better about your mechanical brakes, by all means stick with them.
> 
> Hydros are the way to go. *Every other means of transportation uses hydraulic systems*.


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## Riled (May 1, 2012)

> This guy still has a 1" steerer tube and threaded headset.


Not sure where you got that from, maybe my profile defaulted to that since I didn't fill it all out, but my point is: so effin what! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have been around long enough to have had a bike that had that (as there was nothing else at the time), and you know what, it performed IDENTICALLY, to the threadless aheadset with cartridge bearings that I have today! I wouldn't be shocked if it weighed the same as well.

Thank you for illustrating my point nachomc. And any of you who for a second judged me assuming that I was currently riding a bike with older headset "technology," check yourself (you know who you are, and the rest of us will know you when you can't stand but to reply defending the "tech"). Technology as fashion I swear to God.

Point is, there have been real advances in MTB tech and design no doubt. Us consumers have sometimes mutated it into something other than simple choice. What you are riding doesn't say anything about you. It does pay to be aware of when design changes for a real reason, not to improve someone's bottom line. That's all I'm saying.

Finally, no I'm not a second account made by someone. I have really just joined. I'm looking to get advice on a rebuild and need to post 5 times first, so ya know, here I am. I've got 15 years riding road and mountain, at least 5 on clinchers and 5 on mech disc, now 5 on hydraulics. Also, some key quotes from my earlier post:
"IMHO", "I feel that", "for me and my riding style", "I actually kinda like the hydraulic disc brakes I have now."


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Riled said:


> Not sure where you got that from, maybe my profile defaulted to that since I didn't fill it all out, but my point is: so effin what! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have been around long enough to have had a bike that had that (as there was nothing else at the time), and you know what, it performed IDENTICALLY, to the threadless aheadset with cartridge bearings that I have today! I wouldn't be shocked if it weighed the same as well.
> 
> Thank you for illustrating my point nachomc. And any of you who for a second judged me assuming that I was currently riding a bike with older headset "technology," check yourself (you know who you are, and the rest of us will know you when you can't stand but to reply defending the "tech"). Technology as fashion I swear to God.
> 
> ...


I like this guy, hes a realist.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

yakyakgoose said:


> I like this guy, hes a realist.


No, he's opinionated and inexperienced.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Riled said:


> Not sure where you got that from, maybe my profile defaulted to that since I didn't fill it all out, but my point is: so effin what! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have been around long enough to have had a bike that had that (as there was nothing else at the time), and you know what, it performed IDENTICALLY, to the threadless aheadset with cartridge bearings that I have today! I wouldn't be shocked if it weighed the same as well.
> 
> Thank you for illustrating my point nachomc. And any of you who for a second judged me assuming that I was currently riding a bike with older headset "technology," check yourself (you know who you are, and the rest of us will know you when you can't stand but to reply defending the "tech"). Technology as fashion I swear to God.
> 
> ...


After you comb through your profile to find where it says you have a 1" steerer tube maybe you can take some personal time and try to be less clueless


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

Opinionated,yes, inexperienced , don't think so.
I would call it passionate in his beliefs.
If new components aren't his thing, more power to him.
And I will agree that manufacturers are pushing things with the slick
ads, some things I think should have been left alone.
And I will not get into a free for all with my statement, suffice it
to say we all have different opinions.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

nachomc said:


> After you comb through your profile to find where it says you have a 1" steerer tube maybe you can take some personal time and try to be less clueless


He just signed up, heaven forbid he hasnt found where everything is. Get off the guy's ass.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

yakyakgoose said:


> Get off the guy's ass.


And back on yours?


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

It seems many of the forum members have adopted the same timing of their menstrual cycles...


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## Riled (May 1, 2012)

yakyakgoose said:


> Bit of a rant here...but I received the bike I ordered yesterday and the rear wheel was frozen because the rear Avid Elixir 3 brake was clamped down on the disk. So i started my research and several people said to use the spacer to pry them apart..Tried that and didnt help at all. So then I looked on the Avid site and it said in extremely rare cases there is too much fluid in the lines and to bleed them. So after searching 30 minutes online to find where the screw is to do this since the included manual is complete crap I figure that out. I bled it out little by little using the spacer to push the pads apart. I got them to the point that they are farther apart but still the disc skips lightly on the rim. And even with this marginal accomplishment there is now no power in the brake lever up front cause I had to remove so much oil.(Which is also corrosive and gave me some minor chemical burns on my finger tips)
> 
> What the heck is the point of these over mechanical disk brakes? They do the exact same thing except with 10x the complexity and a fraction of the adjustability. (No individual adjustment of pads) I asked a shop worker once and he said you could squeeze the brake lever with one finger. If you find squeezing a mechanical disk brake too hard you need to sell your bike and take up knitting.
> 
> ...


From what you're describing, I wonder if your rotor is out of alignment. That might explain the symptoms and you say that it's now skipping against the pads. Also, if it's lightly skipping, it should be close enough to firmly grab the rotor, so it probably also has air in the lines as well.

If the rotor's mis-aligned, you can try taking it off, cleaning all the mounting surfaces, and remounting. Any paint chip, or threadlock buildup, or anything like that can cause it to be mis-aligned. In your case, it sounds bad enough that it would be obvious when you take off the rotor whether there was something there.

Good luck.


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## rrschult (May 3, 2012)

I have had mechanical brakes when I first started riding trails and they were fine to some extent. I have not had any problems with my current bike with hydraulic brakes. I think its more of a preference in some cases but I would rather have hydraulic brakes.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Malibu412 said:


> And back on yours?


If you want to show off how much of an badass you think you are on the internet, go for it bud.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

yakyakgoose said:


> He just signed up, heaven forbid he hasnt found where everything is. Get off the guy's ass.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

yakyakgoose said:


> If you want to show off how much of an badass you think you are on the internet, go for it bud.


"A" badass. Not "an" badass. No need to thank me.


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## yakyakgoose (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks for giving me back my red dot via anonymous insults. It seems it gets everybody pissed off on here to point out when people are being completely disrespectful to a guy asking a question or has an opinion different than their own.

mbmb65-You may appreciate the correct use of "an" in the paragraph above


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

yakyakgoose said:


> Thanks for giving me back my red dot via anonymous insults. It seems it gets everybody pissed off on here to point out when people are being completely disrespectful to a guy asking a question or has an opinion different than their own.
> 
> mbmb65-You may appreciate the correct use of "an" in the paragraph above


Why yes, I do.


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