# The WTB Phoenix Thread



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I think the Phoenix is a classic most definitely worthy of it's own thread even though its really not super old yet. Ive seen some nice ones posted here over the years, so lets put 'em all in one spot to enjoy. Ive got a few pics of mine, but I'll let you guys get this thing going as I find some good pics to post.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)




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## UMMADUMMA (Oct 11, 2006)

*here's my brothers phoenix.....i will complete this project for him!!! r.i.p.*

01retro's


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

I've owned a '93 and a '98 (pretty much a first and a last of the series). I now own neither. 

The first pic is a '93 SE (Special Edition) which had roller cams and a few other WYB goodies. The second is a '98 "standard" Phoenix. Both were nice.


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## Rob M. (Aug 30, 2005)

Heres mine.
I still remember when my friend Bryan and I stoped by our favorite bike shop one saturday afternoon. I remember we turned the corner into the second room and right there under the tv was the most beautiful blue bike with three names down the big fat seat tube. The bike stoped us in our tracks and we both simply said woooooo. Then we started asking questions about the bike. The bike was built up the way P.C.C. would typically build a bike back in those days. A splatering of WTB, Shimano, Prolong saddle,and I think it had Ti WTB flat bars. It was nice but more than a young Marine could afford. I would come in on a constant basis to hang out at the shop to visit the guys and drool on that bike. I told my wife that I wanted to buy this frame and build it up with the parts from my Stumpjumper. It was that matte grey Stumpjumper from I think 91" or so. It had 7speed XT thruout and all I would need is a front derailleur. Chuck even worked up a price for me for the frame and seatpost and wrote the price on a little piece of cardboard, I think it was from a tube box. I am sure Chuck doesnt know this but I carried that piece of cardboard in my wallet for years. Around that time my wife and I went on vacation visiting all the mountain bike hot spots, Durango, Crested Butte, and Moab. Just traveling around camping and riding with no particular place to be. One day after our trip I brought in the mail and saw the credit card bill and was wanting to see the damage we did during our trip. So I opened the envelope and started checking out the bill, I looked up at my wife and said Pacific Coast Cycles $500.00? My wifes face just fell and that is when I ruined the surprise that me wife had put the Phoenix on layaway for me. She still gives me crap that I never looked at the bill before and I still try to convince her that I was just checking to see how much we spent on our vacation. Sorry this story is getting long, I'll try to shorten it up. Shortly after we paid it off I got out of the Marine Corps and needed a job. Again one saturday we happened into the shop and I noticed that a big part of the staff was missing. I asked Chuck what happened to everyone and he explained that Mike had moved on to Haro, and either Pete or Tom went off to school and the other had just moved away. So I hit him up for a job. I guess since I hung around so much anyway he hired me. Now I couldnt build up the Phoenix with the parts from the Stumpjumper. So I slowly started piecing it together. It got the first WTB adjustable hubs the shop had, built up by Chuck with BCX 1 & 2 rims, Chris King, Bontrager grey saddle, brand new XT 8 speed drivetrain. I kept the thumbshifters from the Stumpy because they had that extra half a click. The parts havent changed much from the original build, I just changed stuff as it wore out. I had some Sims cranks on at first but after a couple of weeks they cracked so I put on the Shimano's no bling but they work. Anyway this bike has been thru alot with me, it was my main mountain bike for years. It had a repaint because the original D&D paint just chipped away. And then on a little cruise along mission beach one day I hit a railroad ti and twisted the frame. It was ugly, the top tube had a crease on one side and the down tube had a crease on the opposite side. I know Steve P. thought it was a J.R.A. story but I didnt ask him to warranty the frame I just wanted it fixed. Steve cut the front triangle off and built a new one. That was right when 1 1/8" headtubes were getting popular and that is what Steve wanted to put on but I wouldnt have it. I insisted we stayed with 1" so Steve brazed in some collars to reduce the size. Well I love this bike and have alot of history with it. Unfortunatly it doesnt get ridden much anymore (damed 29" wheels) but I will probably never part with it. Sorry this is so long I guess I was just thinking about the salad days, hope you enjoyed.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Mine is waiting for a new Type II from Steve Potts... It is a 96 and will have front and rear roller cams.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re-post*

I've posted this before but here it is again. When I purchased it Steve said it was the first large phoenix built.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Cool post Rob. Brings back a ton of memories. I'll get some photos of mine posted later today.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*heres one or two*

man, i remember seeing the baby blue Phoenix of Stan Lee's when i first came to college in 94, and his was a 93, only it use to be gun metal blue. anyhow, so i just get into town, and am riding my crummy trek down to campus and i pass this hippie birkenstock store (coincidentally that same hippie store is exatly next to my bikeshop now) and what do i see locked to the rack just in front, but this phoenix! i about ride my bike into a parked car, turn around and proceed to check it out for about an hour, I had never seen one in person, but had always admired Steve's work, not to mention all things WTB and Cunningham, the rest has evolved into a life of pursuing the finer things from those fellow.

Stan Lee's phoenix set it all in motion.

so here's a couple of mine.

all for now
nate


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

that green phoenix is truly superb. it has that purposeful, tough as nails, thread the needle sort of look i always liked with the wtb stuff in general. chapeaux!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

dRjOn said:


> that green phoenix is truly superb. it has that purposeful, tough as nails, thread the needle sort of look i always liked with the wtb stuff in general. chapeaux!


Yep, that green one is awesome Nate. I love that one.

The only problem is the cams dont match!! 

I want to build one up like that with a rigid fork, drop bars, and roller cams front and rear as a sort of steel 'Ham. Both of mine now have squishy forks on them.


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Still in the works....










A nice specimen...


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## moonter (Oct 14, 2004)

Jeroen said:


> Still in the works....
> Looking good Jeroen.
> 
> Here's mine, still in the works also. Please excuse the awful camera-phone picture.
> ...


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

@Moonter;

family reunion:

yours and mine when the both where still mine ;-)


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*how's about the pink one again.*

and man, i sure dig the original gunmetal blue and pearl white's that you guys have.

so classy.

here's jacquie again.

notice the electrical tape covering up Wilderness trail bikes on the downtube. some love loss there.

nate


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

*My Phoenix*

Courtesy of ~martini~, after I hounded him for a period of time, this is now my trusty steed. Took it out for a ride in the hills behind my house today so I could take some pics and take it off some sweet jumps. It will soon have a Steve Potts built Type II and front rollercam.









It was in the process of toppling over as this shot was being taken :sad: But, no harm, no foul.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

*Phoenix*

I read this thread with great interest. you all seem to love your Phoenix frames.
Here in Marin County- birthplace of the Phoenix, most people could not have cared less about that frame. It was dated as soon as it was introduced. It was steel, it was not light, the first ones were not even suspension corrected.
As I recall most of the people that owned them got them at or below cost or by trade with WTB- hardly anyone who had one actually went to a bike shop and paid retail for it.
I guess coal becomes diamonds in time?
Don't think I'm a hater- I would take an old school Potts or Cunningham with a type II and rollercams in a heartbeat- I'm just saying that in Marin County when these bikes were current they were not the deal by a long stretch.


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## UMMADUMMA (Oct 11, 2006)

bootsie_cat said:


> I read this thread with great interest. you all seem to love your Phoenix frames.
> Here in Marin County- birthplace of the Phoenix, most people could not have cared less about that frame. It was dated as soon as it was introduced. It was steel, it was not light, the first ones were not even suspension corrected.
> As I recall most of the people that owned them got them at or below cost or by trade with WTB- hardly anyone who had one actually went to a bike shop and paid retail for it.
> I guess coal becomes diamonds in time?
> Don't think I'm a hater- I would take an old school Potts or Cunningham with a type II and rollercams in a heartbeat- I'm just saying that in Marin County when these bikes were current they were not the deal by a long stretch.


FOOLISH!!!!........

i did some ridn' in marin back in 95' we were the guys on the mountain cycles san andreas' 4x4's...all the locals on hard tails were laughin' at us......funny.....


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

how could a bike considered " not the deal by a long stretch" make it so long. when were the last ones made, 2001?beyond? (formerly known as phoenix counts imho).

who's got one of the 29ers?


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## UMMADUMMA (Oct 11, 2006)

FIXED MY PICS!!!

LOOKY LOOKY WAY UP!!!! 




ud


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

*Phoenix*

They probably kept making them because they still had tubesets?
Why do you think Potts fraes were made out of Tange MTB tubing for ever?
Heck, you could probably go by WTB and still get a Bon Tempe- I know that they made 20front triangles as a 1st batch- probably 15 of them still there.



hollister said:


> how could a bike considered " not the deal by a long stretch" make it so long. when were the last ones made, 2001?beyond? (formerly known as phoenix counts imho).
> 
> who's got one of the 29ers?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

bootsie_cat said:


> Here in Marin County- birthplace of the Phoenix, most people could not have cared less about that frame. It was dated as soon as it was introduced. It was steel, it was not light, the first ones were not even suspension corrected.


I'm sure lots of people everywhere felt the same way, but to a few it was a very nice frame. There were maybe 500 made, so it was never intended to sell all that well.

The blue one that I posted above spent many years on the trails of Marin (ridden by the original owner), and I always thought that it rode really well when I owned it.

I still prefer to ride non-suspension correct steel. The newest bike that I own (made in 2004) is rigid (not corrected for suspension) and steel. I agree it's not what people people want, but some of us prefer it.


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## Rob M. (Aug 30, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Cool post Rob. Brings back a ton of memories. I'll get some photos of mine posted later today.


Thanks Mike,
I Hoped you would like it. Do you have any pictures of the shop from back in the day? I remember walking in there and seeing a rack full of the bikes that are talked about here. Potts, Salsa, Ibis, Bontrager, Monolith, and then the employee bikes and of course Chuck would have his Cunningham there somewhere. Alot of bike goodness.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Man I miss that bike. Only bike I've ever owned that I wish I still had. These WTB's were dang NICE riding bikes.

I'll probably maybe get one again someday...Or one of those new fangled 29er Potts's.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bootsie_cat said:


> I read this thread with great interest. you all seem to love your Phoenix frames.
> Here in Marin County- birthplace of the Phoenix, most people could not have cared less about that frame. It was dated as soon as it was introduced. It was steel, it was not light, the first ones were not even suspension corrected.
> As I recall most of the people that owned them got them at or below cost or by trade with WTB- hardly anyone who had one actually went to a bike shop and paid retail for it.
> I guess coal becomes diamonds in time?
> Don't think I'm a hater- I would take an old school Potts or Cunningham with a type II and rollercams in a heartbeat- I'm just saying that in Marin County when these bikes were current they were not the deal by a long stretch.


I know this group of Ford lovers that think the Chevy guys are dumb.

I guess we all have our preferences. The Phoenix in 1995 (or especially '98) was not a cutting edge FSR with a carbon Future Shock (or name any other bike in those glossy MBA ads). It was a light (4.3 pounds of Ritchey oversized Logic tubing), lively, well thought-out trail bike that handled really nicely. I think its probably the best trail bike Ive ever ridden. Ive ridden a lot of bikes on trails for more than two decades and this one is magic for me. Hard to beat unless your looking to catch big air or doing the hardcore DH thing. I even did a decent little drop on mine, ask Rumpfy. 

Bottom line is, I think most people like em for the ride. But, it doesnt surprise me that in the 90s that these were probably not the most sought after bikes. Most people were chasing that magic in full suspension I think.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Here are a couple old ones of mine. Its different now, but cant find the pictures. More to come.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Hard to beat unless your looking to catch big air or doing the hardcore DH thing. I even did a decent little drop on mine, ask Rumpfy.


Little? Thats a 5' footer to almost flat...I didn't think you were going to go for it.


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## dick (Dec 13, 2006)

Five whole feet, huh.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Rob - Pictures? I've got a couple taken in the shop area, but not sure about the rest of the shop. I'll look.

~martini~ Consider it yours to ride anytime you visit the area!

One thing that can best be used to describe the way a Phoenix handles is nothing. The best testament to a bike's handling is not being able to say anything about it. It is so neutral feeling - nimble and stable at the same time - that it really exhibits no negative traits. When someone asks you how a particular bike rode and you really have no words for it becuase you don't have to think about how it rides, that's the best trait a bike can have.

Here's a review from '94 - understated is the key word.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Here's a review from '94 - understated is the key word.


whos got some better pics of that stem


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Interesting review. I wouldnt call mine an XC race bike, but I wouldnt call it a cruiser either. Its not a bike I choose for fire roads. It seems to live for singletrack.

If I was going to race the Hardtail class in a DH, the Phoenix would get the job for sure. These things really come to life on fast downhill singletrack. Super fun.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

hollister said:


> whos got some better pics of that stem


Like this?


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## Pottser (Jan 30, 2004)

I remember being with Steve and Charlie in october 1992 and seeing my first Phoenix bikes. I really don't remember whether they were called Phoenix by then. I bought mine a few years later, 95/96. I still ride it on most of my long rides. Last summer I rode the Leadville 100 on this bike. Would love to have a 29-er with Phoenix-manners.......


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## logbiter (Dec 30, 2003)

Pottser said:


> Would love to have a 29-er with Phoenix-manners.......


I tink that's called a Haro Mary... from what I recall seeing on the 29er board, the mary was inspired by the pheonix.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

logbiter said:


> I tink that's called a Haro Mary... from what I recall seeing on the 29er board, the mary was inspired by the pheonix.


Aye. :thumbsup:


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

The Mary is a nice machine.

Here's a newer '99 Phoenix with disc mounts:


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

*Charlie's Phoenix*

Here is a photo of Mr. C's bike. It's not the best photo, but it's such a great set up.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

*coolness everywhere you look/great photo*



stan lee said:


> Here is a photo of Mr. C's bike. It's not the best photo, but it's such a great set up.


dear god i wanna see more of that shed/garage/whatever


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

hollister said:


> dear god i wanna see more of that shed/garage/whatever


You'd pass out at all the coolness.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

*Color Options*

The second is a '98 "standard" Phoenix.








[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know at what point the paint changed? I just talked to a guy who has a Yellow one from '97 and he said that yellow was the original color. Was '97 and '98 when the change occured? I know that in '93 and I think '94 Blue and Pearl were the options outside of custom job. Maybe in '95 they added the Green?


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## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

*When the show fits.....*



dick said:


> Five whole feet, huh.


Why do you think they call him Dick?


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

*Phoenix*

I wanna see the mirror for watching tv!


stan lee said:


> Here is a photo of Mr. C's bike. It's not the best photo, but it's such a great set up.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

dick said:


> Five whole feet, huh.


Yep, five whole feet buddy.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Courtesy of ~martini~, after I hounded him for a period of time, this is now my trusty steed. Took it out for a ride in the hills behind my house today so I could take some pics and take it off some sweet jumps. It will soon have a Steve Potts built Type II and front rollercam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey mike,
which handlebar is this one? titec.. but is it ti? i like the sweep. a lot. and it seems 24in wide.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> hey mike,
> which handlebar is this one? titec.. but is it ti? i like the sweep. a lot. and it seems 24in wide.


Surly 1x1 Torsion bar maybe?

Those are pretty wide with a fair amount of sweep. Cool bar.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Surly 1x1 Torsion bar maybe?
> 
> Those are pretty wide with a fair amount of sweep. Cool bar.


i thought of those.. steel.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

colker1 said:


> hey mike,
> which handlebar is this one? titec.. but is it ti? i like the sweep. a lot. and it seems 24in wide.


It's a silver aluminum Titec Flatracker (the other photo with the WTB stem is a Titec ti 118 bar - different from the one on my Phoenix). 630mm wide with about 11 deg back sweep. My favorite flat bar. Salsa is now making some nice wide flat bars with both an 11 and 17 deg backsweep as well. Probably my new (readily available) flat bar.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*heres a 94*

ok, so the parts may look familiar and the seatpost isn't correct, but i thought i'd share anyhow.

these parts came off my 96 Phoenix that will end up with a sussy fork, and this 94 frame came originally from rumphy via a nice fellow in japan.

need to still paint the TypeII, but haven't.

here you go.

hey rumphy, did you have the rollercam mounts added to the seatstay? or were they already on there? odd for a 94.

all for now 
nate


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*uh,*

it's actually blue, but you can't tell by that photo, maybe this one.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Nate, I can't wait to get down to yer shop! I recently found out that a cousin is getting married and the wedding is in Lincoln. Some time in August. I'll for sure be bringing along a bike. 

I'll get ahold of ya closer to the date to try and set something up.

Marty

ps, yer pm's are full...sorry for the OT


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

cursivearmy said:


> ok, so the parts may look familiar and the seatpost isn't correct, but i thought i'd share anyhow.
> 
> these parts came off my 96 Phoenix that will end up with a sussy fork, and this 94 frame came originally from rumphy via a nice fellow in japan.
> 
> ...


Hey! Nice to see it come back home.

Yep, the RC mounts were already there.

Here are a few pictures as I found it:


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

*That was quick*

Looks great, Nate. I want one with a Type II up front. I should have bought that from Rumpfy a long time ago.

Here's mine with the lever link up front:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Looks great, Nate. I want one with a Type II up front. I should have bought that from Rumpfy a long time ago.
> 
> Here's mine with the lever link up front:


We could have done a straight up for what I just picked up! :smilewinkgrin:


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Looks great, Nate. I want one with a Type II up front. I should have bought that from Rumpfy a long time ago.
> 
> Here's mine with the lever link up front:


I dig the oversize Suntour seatpost on that bike. Was that a production item and if so, where can I find one from my Phoenix?


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*some answers*

hey marty, please stop by the shop in august, we'll go ride somewhere for sure.

ER-thanks for the shots of the Phoenix frame before the repaint, cool to see for sure. And by the way, just exactly what did you recently aquire?

FB, i'm stoked that you got the scissor cam to work on that WTB brake brace, it looks so correct and tough on the front end. what year is that Phoenix?96?or 97?

Bushpig- that's a suntour head unit on a custom WTB 31.8 aluminum post, they use to do them that way and you could get them with your phoenix from WTB. I've got a couple of the head units out of fried post's. since suntour just pinned them into their posts you could have a shim made and fit it into the new post, like WTB did.

keep the phoenix stuff coming.

nate


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Here is a photo of Mr. C's bike. It's not the best photo, but it's such a great set up.


That is a really cool Phoenix. Just like having a steel Ham. I want one like that. Love that color too.

Charlie said that particular Phoenix is a one-off and a bit noodly; its got a True Temper front triangle which is a bit smaller in diameter than the Ritchey Logic Oversized tubing typically used.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> hey marty, please stop by the shop in august, we'll go ride somewhere for sure.
> 
> ER-thanks for the shots of the Phoenix frame before the repaint, cool to see for sure. And by the way, just exactly what did you recently aquire?
> 
> ...


Yep, what Nate said; its just a standard Suntour post cut off at about 4" and pressed into a 31.8 tube with a pin and some epoxy.

I also have one that looks like Suntour made it (one piece/no pins), but I think its a 31.6.

Nate, I think thats a 96. I cant really read the serial number.


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Mine came with an American Classic seatpost and I see those pop up in their catalogs mostly.


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## CT2 (Apr 1, 2004)

*Great thread Any production numbers*

I love all the great shots of Potts bikes. I have a Ti Phoenix and my father has a Potts custom steal.

Anyone have production numbers on Potts built Phoenixes, both Ti and steal. It is my understanding that the last of the Phoenixes, were not built by Potts, is this true.

I will try and post some pictures in a few.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

CT2 said:


> I love all the great shots of Potts bikes. I have a Ti Phoenix and my father has a Potts custom steal.
> 
> Anyone have production numbers on Potts built Phoenixes, both Ti and steal. It is my understanding that the last of the Phoenixes, were not built by Potts, is this true.
> 
> I will try and post some pictures in a few.


I believe fellow forum regular Fillet Brazed is working on a Potts serial number registry/database....not sure if that includes Phoeni (plural of Phoenix? )).
I'm sure he can make use of your Dad's Potts serial number.

And we can all make use of seeing some pictures of your Potts/WTB rides.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

CT2 said:


> I love all the great shots of Potts bikes. I have a Ti Phoenix and my father has a Potts custom steal.
> 
> Anyone have production numbers on Potts built Phoenixes, both Ti and steal. It is my understanding that the last of the Phoenixes, were not built by Potts, is this true.
> 
> I will try and post some pictures in a few.


Not sure how many steel Phoenixes were made. Cursivearmy might know that. Like Rumpfy said, Im putting together a Potts database and would like your serial numbers and to see pics.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*hey guys,*

well, last i spoke with steve he said that he built between 550 and 600 steel Phoenix's during the run, but then again, brennan and i were busy chewing our french toast and not really giving him full attention. steve makes great french toast.

but yup, between 550 and 600 according to steve.

all for now
nate


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

cursivearmy said:


> well, last i spoke with steve he said that he built between 550 and 600 steel Phoenix's during the run, but then again, brennan and i were busy chewing our french toast and not really giving him full attention. steve makes great french toast.
> 
> but yup, between 550 and 600 according to steve.
> 
> ...


So about 100 were made per year?


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> steve makes great french toast.


You gotta try the sourdough pancakes next time :thumbsup:


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ssmike said:


> You gotta try the sourdough pancakes next time :thumbsup:


I dont think the french toast or the sourdough pancakes can hold a candle to the pizza from the local Point Reyes Pizzeria/Video Rental store.


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## dick (Dec 13, 2006)

Interesting how many of you have had 'breakfast' with Steve Potts.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

dick said:


> Interesting how many of you have had 'breakfast' with Steve Potts.


ah, jealousy rears its ugly 'head.'


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> well, last i spoke with steve he said that he built between 550 and 600 steel Phoenix's during the run, but then again, brennan and i were busy chewing our french toast and not really giving him full attention. steve makes great french toast.
> 
> but yup, between 550 and 600 according to steve.
> 
> ...


Ok, so I got a PM with a Phoenix serial number and Ive started a seperate Phoenix database. If you can, give me the SN, size, rear brakes (SE or not) and whether or not its got the old or newer decals. Or a pic. Thanks.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Ok, so I got a PM with a Phoenix serial number and Ive started a seperate Phoenix database. If you can, give me the SN, size, rear brakes (SE or not) and whether or not its got the old or newer decals. Or a pic. Thanks.


WTB Phoenix 94260 was an SE model. 15" frame, blue.
Feel free to use the pics from this thread. Older style decals I believe.


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## Belfrey (Jan 12, 2004)

Hollister gave me a heads-up on this thread. I ride a Ti Phoenix, '97 if I remember right. Unfortunately, I see no numbers on it and I have none of the original documents. It isn't a collector's piece for me, it's my main ride! I'll just re-post pics and explanation from the F=88 posts I made about it:



> Sorry about the cheesy kitchen pics, but I didn't want to be accused of not having a bike, so I did a rush job:
> 
> <img src=https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/Phoenix_001.jpg>
> <img src=https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/Phoenix_002.jpg>
> ...


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## bestmtb (Oct 19, 2004)

*My WTB Phoenix Ti*

I love this bike. One of my favorite rides.


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## CA Peddler (Nov 20, 2006)

*Trusty old friend*

I sure wish my Phoenix was as beautiful as the others shown but it's my daily ride. I've always thought that the best kind of bike is one that's ridden. That makes this the best I've ever owned.....and I have a few.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

CA Peddler said:


> I sure wish my Phoenix was as beautiful as the others shown but it's my daily ride. I've always thought that the best kind of bike is one that's ridden. That makes this the best I've ever owned.....and I have a few.


Thats totally awesome. Thats the exact Phoenix Ive been looking for. And I agree about the riding part. They sure are great riding bikes. If you ever want to uh, you know....


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Its not a great pic, but I need to bring this thread back. Any more Phoeni' out there?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Its not a great pic, but I need to bring this thread back. Any more Phoeni' out there?


Your rear spring tension is way ... too ... tight


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

bushpig said:


> Your rear spring tension is way ... too ... tight


Haha! Little bit.

Thats been corrected and WTB brace added.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> WTB brace added.


 the one from the front end? the spacing worked out OK, or did it need to be drilled more?


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Okay I Play...

At first when I got the frame I was running a more "V.R.C." set up, Using WTB canti brakes (not the crappy copies), Suntour XC pro brake levers with XT thumpshifters, on a M900 rear hub using a 8speed cassette, a "Universal clamp" band type XT front derailleur (the seat tube is massive on the Ti version)

Well I was getting tired of the Kadiwompas Suntour cable stop attach to the seat post collar and also the routing of the brake wire attach to the steer tube, but before that I try a set of AVID tri-Aling brakes with not much emothional attachment.

Anyway One day i just figure out since my frame was somehow "Newer" and not running the proper rollercam mounts was pointless to try to keep it Mega Vintage so I build it with a more current mix of M900 and M950 parts.

As any of my bikes this is a "Rider" and it needs to work as best as possible.









Halson suspension fork (I don't have a proper rigid fork so far) on a WTB grease guard hub and a Mavic 517 rim with a matching color Mango chris king headset (thanks mister mendocino)









My Funky Ti handlebars look amazing but sincerely they don't work that well for me, maybe I need more hours with them.









Yes I wrap the chainstays, hell I always wrap my chainstays.
my last "mister Tuffy" happen to the orange and I think it looks kind of cool, M900 rear with a red bulleye pulley, a Thompson seatpost since I did not have the proper suntour seatpost and a re-machine Hope seat collar QR clamp.









A 20 year old White "Perforated" Selle Italia flite that is being with me all that time and the super comfy Oury grips like all the Hipsters in san francisco (I do have the WTB grips, I just don't like them)
the cranks are 175mm M900 running on a 108mm x 68mm Syncros Ti bottom bracket (the BB shell is 73mm but I know a few tricks)









And this one just for Eric since apparently he loves my Motorcycle more than I do....:nono: 









Again sorry is not super VRC, then again it rides very nice.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

patineto said:


> Okay I Play...
> 
> At first when I got the frame I was running a more "V.R.C." set up, Using WTB canti brakes (not the crappy copies), Suntour XC pro brake levers with XT thumpshifters, on a M900 rear hub using a 8speed cassette, a "Universal clamp" band type XT front derailleur (the seat tube is massive on the Ti version)
> 
> ...


Looks good to me! Might be one of your best! :thumbsup:


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

hollister said:


> the one from the front end? the spacing worked out OK, or did it need to be drilled more?


Yep. Its a newer brace with the etched logo. I have an older one for the Salsa. Its heavier.

And here's some better pics with the more dialed set up. I did have to widen the holes just a tiny bit.














































Brace for the Salsa.


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



cursivearmy said:


> it's actually blue, but you can't tell by that photo, maybe this one.


Nate-
Where can I get a front cable hanger set-up like you have on this Phoenix?
I have pretty much the same bike but I think it's a 1996 and has the "Phoenix" decal on the top tube not the down tube...but I really like that cable hanger and want one! 
I've seen it on many of your bikes, as well as on other Potts' bikes.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*










Rumpfy,
Do you think that a Roller-Cam would work back there, or is there not enough room for the cam to properly travel or will it be on a funky angle? 
I don't yet have a Toggle-Cam for my Phoenix, just a Roller-Cam and was just curious if anyone ever tried a Roller-Cam with that sized frame and cable routing
...Anyone? Anyone? ...Bushpig?


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Do you think that a Roller-Cam would work back there, or is there not enough room for the cam to properly travel or will it be on a funky angle?
> I don't yet have a Toggle-Cam for my Phoenix, just a Roller-Cam and was just curious if anyone ever tried a Roller-Cam with that sized frame and cable routing
> ...Anyone? Anyone? ...Bushpig?


While a toggle is ideal for an off-center cable angle, a roller should work provided there is enough room for the cam to travel. You'll just have to adjust the spring tension accordingly. There are other frames (RItchey P-Series, Phoenix with canti brakes) that use an off center cable pull and they work just fine too by balancing the spring tension.


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Nate-
> Where can I get a front cable hanger set-up like you have on this Phoenix?
> I have pretty much the same bike but I think it's a 1996 and has the "Phoenix" decal on the top tube not the down tube...but I really like that cable hanger and want one!
> I've seen it on many of your bikes, as well as on other Potts' bikes.


Is your bike 1" or 1 1/8"?


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Is your bike 1" or 1 1/8"?


Do you have extras in a 1.125 size?


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> Do you have extras in a 1.125 size?


Maybe a few


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Nate-
> Where can I get a front cable hanger set-up like you have on this Phoenix?
> I have pretty much the same bike but I think it's a 1996 and has the "Phoenix" decal on the top tube not the down tube...but I really like that cable hanger and want one!
> I've seen it on many of your bikes, as well as on other Potts' bikes.


It's a WTB cable hanger. There are some quality replicas known to be floating around out there if you know the right people..


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



ssmike said:


> While a toggle is ideal for an off-center cable angle, a roller should work provided there is enough room for the cam to travel. You'll just have to adjust the spring tension accordingly. There are other frames (RItchey P-Series, Phoenix with canti brakes) that use an off center cable pull and they work just fine too by balancing the spring tension.


Thanks SSMike, That's good to know.


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## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Any more Phoeni' out there?


Yes, mine, but it is not finished - yet. Pic from right after collection =>


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Patineto- Very smooth ride. I used to have a Halson PDS fork, and used a Ritchey Z-Max 2.35. As I recall, it touches the crown when the fork is near bottoming. I would check.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ssmike said:


> While a toggle is ideal for an off-center cable angle, a roller should work provided there is enough room for the cam to travel. You'll just have to adjust the spring tension accordingly. There are other frames (RItchey P-Series, Phoenix with canti brakes) that use an off center cable pull and they work just fine too by balancing the spring tension.


A cam is a little more critical than a canti straddle cable in that it's shaped to open the arms a certain way. I think you'd get the cam pulling to one side making the arms respond oddly. Only one way to find out though.

Maybe you could have a asymmetric cam made. 

Finding toggle cam parts is not impossible, but it's tough... I fab'ed some toggle cam parts up a while back just for fun and it worked, but it was ugly. I can't find the pics though.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> It's a WTB cable hanger. There are some quality replicas known to be floating around out there if you know the right people..


nice replica! now you have a real one to put on there.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Here is a photo of Mr. C's bike. It's not the best photo, but it's such a great set up.


hmmm. I just realized why that picture looked so familiar.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

oh my god. That's hideous. 

That bike is just set up wrong. 

In order to redeem yourself, E12k, you have to repost when its complete. 

kthxby.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*FB's Toggle Cam*

FB's Toggle Cam


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

patineto said:


> Okay I Play...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Again sorry is not super VRC, then again it rides very nice.


Looks really good to me!


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> A cam is a little more critical than a canti straddle cable in that it's shaped to open the arms a certain way. I think you'd get the cam pulling to one side making the arms respond oddly. Only one way to find out though.
> 
> Maybe you could have a asymmetric cam made.
> 
> Finding toggle cam parts is not impossible, but it's tough... I fab'ed some toggle cam parts up a while back just for fun and it worked, but it was ugly. I can't find the pics though.


Hence the use of the word "should."  Yeah, I think it may pull oddly, but once the brake is "on" and the rollers are on the right section of the cam, it should (there it is again!) be okay. The larger the frame and the longer the distance from the guide to the cam, the better. Definitely worth a try, though. Maybe I'll experiment a bit today.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

ssmike said:


> Hence the use of the word "should."  Yeah, I think it may pull oddly, but once the brake is "on" and the rollers are on the right section of the cam, it should (there it is again!) be okay. The larger the frame and the longer the distance from the guide to the cam, the better. Definitely worth a try, though.


FatMike has a line on a togglecam so he doesn't need to try.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> nice replica! now you have a real one to put on there.


Right! I should swap that out huh? Man I'm lazy.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Shayne said:


> FB's Toggle Cam


That is hideous.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Shayne said:


> FB's Toggle Cam


I think the technical name for that is a Gimp-L-Cam.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

uphiller said:


> Patineto- Very smooth ride. I used to have a Halson PDS fork, and used a Ritchey Z-Max 2.35. As I recall, it touches the crown when the fork is near bottoming. I would check.


Thanks senor for the headups.

So far I have never bottom out one of this PDS's (i have three from the same era) plus I'm also pretty chubby,kind of clumsy and I like to jump things.

This days I only ride on 2.1 tires since all my WCS 2,35 are all gone and/or to worn out (I still have a few massive Klein deathgrips that I love).

In any case thanks for the advice.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> That is hideous.


I forgot why it was that I made that until Shayne came up with the pic. I bought that frame and it only had one WTB arm and I couldnt find another so I used a Suntour arm that operated on a different plane than the low-sitting (stiffer) WTB version. So, because of that, a regular roller cam wouldn't work with the two differing arms so I fab'd the toggle set up there to match up to the ~3mm of offset. I love to tinker with stuff. Someday I will have some nice machinery like DC, but for now its just a bunch of Park tools unfortunately. 

Since then Steve Potts gave me the one WTB arm I needed and all is good. Coincidentally, that particular bike was modified at one point on its BB shell (by Charlie I'm pretty sure) to run the offset cable allowing a toggle cam.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Since then Steve Potts gave me the one WTB arm I needed and all is good. Coincidentally, that particular bike was modified at one point on its BB shell (by Charlie I'm pretty sure) to run the offset cable allowing a toggle cam.


What bike is that?


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



ssmike said:


> Is your bike 1" or 1 1/8"?


SSMike,
My bike is 1 & 1/8"


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

some Phoenix pics showing some varying incarnations over time:


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> FatMike has a line on a togglecam so he doesn't need to try.


Yes Bushpig, YOU are correct that I have access to a proper togglecam and I'll give you props on that, I was JUST askin' and I appreciate all of the knowledgeable answers from the troops! :thumbsup:

Don't go getting your Lycra Shorts in a ruffle!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Yes Bushpig, YOU are correct that I have access to a proper togglecam and I'll give you props on that, I was JUST askin' and I appreciate all of the knowledgeable answers from the troops! :thumbsup:
> 
> Don't go getting your Lycra Shorts in a ruffle!


Hahaha...BP got all nervous.


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## LIFECYCLE (Mar 8, 2006)

That bike looks like it rides well just standing there


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Rumpfy said:


> Hahaha...BP got all nervous.


Poor BP, he would make a really annoying girlfriend! 

But he has a *****in' bike collection and he does have access to cool stuff!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Poor BP, he would make a really annoying girlfriend!
> 
> But he has a *****in' bike collection and he does have access to cool stuff!


:skep: :skep: :skep:


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Poor BP, he would make a really annoying girlfriend!


Hahah. Totally. Sooo needy.


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*My WTB Phoenix...a work in progress...*

This recent acquisition is a work in progress...




































More photos to follow as the build continues...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Did you measure the headtube? Looks like a susp. corrected frame to me.

Nice fork!


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

uphiller said:


> Patineto- Very smooth ride. I used to have a Halson PDS fork, and used a Ritchey Z-Max 2.35. As I recall, it touches the crown when the fork is near bottoming. I would check.


Okay I'm getting Old.

I can not even tell what kind of tires I install on my bikes anymore.

The labels are far gone, but I think you are right and the tire is a 2,35 (it measure about 2.2) but after being around all this mega gigantic downhill tires this one just look tiny in reference.

Well the important part is that the tire is not touching on the fork crown no matter how hard I try, I even when "Mini jumping" at the Golden gate park near the aquarium dropping from a 2feet platform to flat a few times and nothing happen.

In any case thanks for having better eyes than I do.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

patineto said:


> I can not even tell what kind of tires I install on my bikes anymore.


In that case, the Ritchey Z-Max up front is also technically backwards.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Did you measure the headtube? Looks like a susp. corrected frame to me.
> 
> Nice fork!


Steve had all the frame measurements for building this fork.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> This recent acquisition is a work in progress...
> 
> More photos to follow as the build continues...


All you really need is that 140mm rear hub right? The rest of the parts can't be that difficult to source.

Build it up and get it on the trail as quickly as you can. You may just have to change your handle after.

Its timeless in a sense that there isn't a modern hardtail made today that feels the way this bike does.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

That built up blue Phoenix with SID fork looks so right. I'm not a fan of totally period correct bikes, because some modern stuff works better, in my opinion. How do you like that Thomson stem? I'm thinking about buying one for my Curtlo (1998; one of the last frames that Doug built in California. Does it belong in this forum?), but it might appear too chunky for a steel bike.

--Antoine


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## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Fillet-brazed said:


> Did you measure the headtube? Looks like a susp. corrected frame to me.
> 
> Nice fork!


FB-I didn't personally measure it, but it does look a lot like your frame in your photos that is obviously suspension corrected-although I got this frame & fork from BP and he had the fork made by Steve Potts specifically for this frame, so I doubt they would both overlook that detail...See BP's reply below...

Yeah it really is a nice fork:thumbsup:


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Rumpfy said:


> All you really need is that 140mm rear hub right? The rest of the parts can't be that difficult to source.
> 
> Build it up and get it on the trail as quickly as you can. You may just have to change your handle after.
> 
> Its timeless in a sense that there isn't a modern hardtail made today that feels the way this bike does.


...
All you really need is that 140mm rear hub right? The rest of the parts can't be that difficult to source. ACTUALLY NO I DON'T HAVE A 140MM HUB OR WHEEL...I WAS PLANNING ON USING A 135MM PHIL WOOD BOLT-ON HUB WITH A SPACER, DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS? 

Build it up and get it on the trail as quickly as you can. You may just have to change your handle after.
I PLAN ON BEING BLOWN AWAY BY THE RIDE ON THIS BIKE BUT I'LL ALWAYS BE
"FAT" 

Its timeless in a sense that there isn't a modern hardtail made today that feels the way this bike does. THIS HARDTAIL TO ME REPERESENTS A BRIDGE BETWEEN THE PAST AND CURRENT FRAME TECHNOLGY...IT WAS CRAFTED BY A PIONEER IN THE SPORT DESIGNED WITH THE RIDER IN MIND AND HAS SOME MODERN TOUCHES, SUCH AS THE GEOMETRY AND THE 1 & 1/8 HEAD TUBE, AS OPPOSED TO A 1" THREADED...


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> Steve had all the frame measurements for building this fork.


I'm sure it's the correct fork.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> I'm sure it's the correct fork.


ah, nevermind, but don't complain to me if it feels like a Bontrager.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Vlad said:


> That built up blue Phoenix with SID fork looks so right.


 That's the way it feels too.



Vlad said:


> How do you like that Thomson stem? I'm thinking about buying one for my Curtlo (1998; one of the last frames that Doug built in California. Does it belong in this forum?), but it might appear too chunky for a steel bike.


The stem is fine, it is a little bulky. Maybe if the Phoenix didnt have the oversized tubing it would look even more bulky.

Start a thread for your Curtlo.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> ACTUALLY NO I DON'T HAVE A 140MM HUB OR WHEEL...I WAS PLANNING ON USING A 135MM PHIL WOOD BOLT-ON HUB WITH A SPACER, DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS?


Nope. You got it. Get a 5mm longer left end cap for your phil, re-dish the wheel and it's a 140 spaced hub.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



ssmike said:


> Nope. You got it. Get a 5mm longer left end cap for your phil, re-dish the wheel and it's a 140 spaced hub.


SSMike-You have a PM!


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

Hi,
an info please,I bought my Phoenix used some months ago.
But the frame has 135 mm rear space!!!!
why???????????????
Thanks


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

alasa said:


> Hi,
> an info please,I bought my Phoenix used some months ago.
> But the frame has 135 mm rear space!!!!
> why???????????????
> Thanks


It's a Fhoenix (fake phoenix) 

Not sure if the last of the breed were 135mm....they might have been.

Do you have pictures and a serial number?


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

*Wtb*

Hello Eric,
I think no fake,
here a pix, serial number is 94301

1" steer tube, U brake bosses, and I check rear spacing.

Ciao
Andrea


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

You could order one with 140 or 135 spacing. Mine is 135 but once I find a 140 grease guard cassette hub (the good one), I'll respace it to 140.


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

I dont Know, I think my frame is '94.
I check rear space and it's 137 mm.
So I can use 135 or 140 without problems, I hope!!

Thanks
Andrea


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

alasa said:


> Hello Eric,
> I think no fake,
> here a pix, serial number is 94301
> 
> ...


Very nice Phoenix! :thumbsup:


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

Thank you Eric,
but where can I find Phoenix history and difference betweene
models, steer tube 1" or 1,1/8, cantilever or cam brake, cam brake in chainstay or in the seatstay.............
Thanks
Ciao
Andrea


----------



## alasa (Jan 28, 2004)

Found info at
http://mombat.org/WTB.htm
the 140 mm rear spacing born in '96 with 8 speed
older frame are 135!!


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

ssmike said:


> You could order one with 140 or 135 spacing. Mine is 135 but once I find a 140 grease guard cassette hub (the good one), I'll respace it to 140.


Well, I was wrong. Mine (1998) is 140 but had a 135 hub in it. Just got done respacing the XT hub from 135 to 140 and redishing the wheel. Ideally, I should have used a 5mm longer axle, but there's about 3.5mm of axle extending past the lock nut - sufficient.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

alasa said:


> Found info at
> http://mombat.org/WTB.htm
> the 140 mm rear spacing born in '96 with 8 speed
> older frame are 135!!


I think it came along earlier than that as my '95 has 140 spacing...


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Well, I was wrong. Mine (1998) is 140 but had a 135 hub in it. Just got done respacing the XT hub from 135 to 140 and redishing the wheel. Ideally, I should have used a 5mm longer axle, but there's about 3.5mm of axle extending past the lock nut - sufficient.


I just measured 3 newish frames and they all measure out at roughly 137mm - 138mm. One frame had a 140 hub and the other two had 135 hubs. Now who's confused...I'll stop talking with myself now.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

I think I need one of those super tall, super long "Suntour XCPro + WTB" specific seat post, since the thompson I have is just not long enough, are they hard to find..??

how much do they go for, if i ever find one..??

Also I have a bunch of XC pro post already, can I just "add" a external sleeve of 7000series aluminum, in a similar way Steve did, or is something really special about them.

I have not seeing one in years, I don't remember exactly how they where made, but i do remember they did look very rudimentary..


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Take a number.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

patineto said:


> I think I need one of those super tall, super long "Suntour XCPro + WTB" specific seat post, since the thompson I have is just not long enough, are they hard to find..??
> 
> how much do they go for, if i ever find one..??
> 
> ...


Mine was made by Charlie Cunningham. It is internally butted based on my frame size and has nice finishing where the XC Pro head was rivited on. It is very nicely made.


----------



## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

patineto: My..er I mean Mikes...is a 31.8mm post. I know they've varied between 31.6 and 31.8. I just checked the qbp website, and the 31.8 x 410 Thomson's aren't available any more. You may get lucky and find one used...or you can call up Thomson and see if they'll do one up for you again.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

The Shannon brand from Germany does the 'Hard Core' post, here specced as 430mm, but they do 500mm as well. Nice feature is they were already available when your Phoenix was new, so period correct.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

bushpig said:


> Mine was made by Charlie Cunningham. It is internally butted based on my frame size and has nice finishing where the XC Pro head was rivited on. It is very nicely made.


I Fix it For you
*
"Mine was made by Dave at DKG"*

Actually not that long ago I learn that ALL the famous Cunningham frames where actually welded by David too.

Kind of sad if you asking , specially after the many times i congratulate charlie and lady wombat for the frames

ps: yes he was part of the design process, for sure, but not the making or building of them.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

~martini~ said:


> patineto: My..er I mean Mikes...is a 31.8mm post. I know they've varied between 31.6 and 31.8. I just checked the qbp website, and the 31.8 x 410 Thomson's aren't available any more. You may get lucky and find one used...or you can call up Thomson and see if they'll do one up for you again.


Serendipitys are kind of fun..

Actually a few months back I ask around here what type of frames will fit a 31.8mm seat post, since a friend of mine have two of them. (I was sure they where for Adroid's)

Currently I'm running one of this 31.8 thompson post from Adam, but i still want to get a longer one, at least if do not cost me more than a complete bike.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

patineto said:


> I Fix it For you
> *
> "Mine was made by Dave at DKG"*
> 
> ...


You "fix" wrong bro. Mine was made by Charlie. He and I went back and forth on the details and the process.

Most not All "Hams had some welding done with Dave. Charlie did finishing and heat treating. I am sad that it makes you sad  Jacquie didn't do any of the frame building.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Take a number.


What....:madman:

F^&K :nono:

Are they that Hard to find

I guess I better stop dreaming about it.

Or maybe make my own, I have some good contacts at the "Easton tent pole lab" maybe I can ask a favor for a super fancy and light piece of tubing.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Elevation12 said:


> The Shannon brand from Germany does the 'Hard Core' post, here specced as 430mm, but they do 500mm as well. Nice feature is they were already available when your Phoenix was new, so period correct.


Thanks Senor for the link...

My frame is a Titanium version, do the steel ones use the same diameter...!?


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

patineto said:


> I Fix it For you
> *
> "Mine was made by Dave at DKG"*
> 
> ...


And yet it still doesn't detract from the why the bike as a whole is still not any less desirable. Does it really matter if the guy who's name is on the frame didn't "make" every single aspect of the bike? If you have the resources available to you, why not use them?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

patineto said:


> I Fix it For you
> *
> "Mine was made by Dave at DKG"*
> 
> ...


Like BP said, Dave G didnt do all of them, just some for a certain time period. Charlie was about function/performance, so if there was a better way, that's where it went.

I also like how you said CC was _part_ of the design process. He was the end all and be all of the design process.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

bushpig said:


> You "fix" wrong bro. Mine was made by Charlie. He and I went back and forth on the details and the process.


Upss sorry about, for sure you guys know far more about the topic than i do...



> Most not All "Hams had some welding done with Dave. Charlie did finishing and heat treating. I am sad that it makes you sad  Jacquie didn't do any of the frame building.


I was just sad because for many years (since 1987 or so) I imagine Charlie welding the frames at his dark leaky shed, but when I visit his house I never so a TIG welder around and I was to afraid to ask, Then a week ago taking with my friend JP and him at the shop (quoting some products I need to make) I found out he weld the frames too.

Anyway for the last few days I was getting a "Gary fisher syndrome" about them, thanks for correcting me at least somehow.



> Jacquie didn't do any of the frame


yes,, I did know she did not work on the frames, but emotional support sometimes count too.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

patineto said:


> I Fix it For you
> *
> "Mine was made by Dave at DKG"*
> 
> ...


pfffftttt.. "artisanship and old artistic values of handmade blablabla"...pffftt.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Take a number.


Well that was not that hard...

I guess It pays to have connections but even more be nice to people..

A old friend of mine in so-cal had one of this long seatpost and is on my way as we speak.

I show you pictures when I get it, to see if the right thing (I don't see how it can not be)

until monday.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

patineto said:


> I guess It pays to have connections but even more be nice to people..


Attach it to your motorcycle.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Attach it to your motorcycle.


No Eric I only attach Crappy useless parts to my Moto, besides I will not like for Her to lose that special flavor of disarray that you enjoy so much.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Attach it to your motorcycle.


Man.. A 18" shaft, almost 19 1/2" at the seat post clamps.









With all the respect Charlie deserves, this post is not that well "put" together, just a couple of pins holding a masterful XC-pro seat post (one of the best designs ever in my opinion)









Why do you need something so long puzzles me, is not like you need to run the seat directly from the bottom bracket, oh well.:madman: 









Hell, I'm going to try to make one my self and see what happen, but don't worry Eric i also know how to make things "Nice"


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

patineto said:


> Man.. A 18" shaft, almost 19 1/2" at the seat post clamps.
> 
> With all the respect Charlie deserves, this post is not that well "put" together, just a couple of pins holding a masterful XC-pro seat post (one of the best designs ever in my opinion)
> 
> ...


Nice pick up either way. Better than the Syncros post I have on mine.

Unless you want to trade.


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Nice pick up either way. Better than the Syncros post I have on mine.
> 
> Unless you want to trade.


Man Eric is any kind of Bike you DO NOT Have..

No Thank you on the Trade.

If the one I'm going to make works, I will sell this one and send the money to my friend or maybe return it to him.

Will see.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Eh, worth a shot. I wouldn't trade with me either.


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

patineto said:


> Man Eric is any kind of Bike you DO NOT Have..
> 
> No Thank you on the Trade.
> 
> ...


Glad the good folks here were able to supply you with the necessary information to create your auction. You might want to check your spelling (yeah, I know English is not your first language, but geez at least spell "Cunningham" and "Phoenix" correctly). I assume everyone who contributed to your knowledge of this seat post will be getting a cut of the auction proceeds.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

At least he didn't start a whole new thread to pillage info from first.


----------



## nitram3k (Oct 6, 2005)

*Here's my Pheonix*

I found mine on Ebay about 4 years ago for less than 600 dollars complete. It came with these extra parts: an American Classic seatpost, older WTB wheelset, Judy parts, new set of WTB tires, new set of Gripshift X-Rays, new set of WTB dual compound brake pads. Originally came with WTB titanium flat bars, cromoly threadless Salsa stem, Real brake levers, red Precision Billet rear derailluer, Specialized S-Works crankset, WTB New Paradigm bottom bracket. Titec seatpost and older WTB SST saddle.

Missed spelled Phoenix on purpose, since that's how it was listed on Ebay. Maybe that's why only 2 people bidded on the bike.

Best bike I have ever ridden. From local trails, Angeles Crest Forest to many parts in Mexico, great ride every time.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

nitram3k said:


> I found mine on Ebay about 4 years ago for less than 600 dollars complete. It came with these extra parts: an American Classic seatpost, older WTB wheelset, Judy parts, new set of WTB tires, new set of Gripshift X-Rays, new set of WTB dual compound brake pads. Originally came with WTB titanium flat bars, cromoly threadless Salsa stem, Real brake levers, red Precision Billet rear derailluer, Specialized S-Works crankset, WTB New Paradigm bottom bracket. Titec seatpost and older WTB SST saddle.
> 
> Missed spelled Phoenix on purpose, since that's how it was listed on Ebay. Maybe that's why only 2 people bidded on the bike.
> 
> Best bike I have ever ridden. From local trails, Angeles Crest Forest to many parts in Mexico, great ride every time.


Great score. Still have the seatpost and wheelset - or perhaps those Judy parts 

That bike looks well ridden. WTB certainly built a classic!


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

> I found mine on Ebay about 4 years ago for less than 600 dollars complete.


Same year and looks like even the same size as mine (I really need to take some photos). Mine also came from e-bay, I gave $400 for the bare unbuilt frameset back in about 99. The guy I bought it from said it had been stored in his closet. He bought it to build up for an ex-girlfriend. Lucky for me, the girlfriend was gone before the bike was built. I made a deal with him off e-bay, at first he resisted but nobody was bidding so he took my offer and pulled the auction.



> Best bike I have ever ridden.


I agree. The only bike I've ever really felt comfortable on in any condition or terrain.


----------



## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Found an old picture of the dearly departed. Taken at the **** Trail trailhead in Crested Butte. Set up in the pic is with a Marzocchi Z-1 4" fork, XTR/sram 9.0sl/and big tires. Bestest 'all mountain' bike I've owned to date. As has been stated many times here already, the techy-er the trail gets, the better this bike gets. Just pure awesomeness.


From Vassago y Haro


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

What's everyone using as a seat post binder ont he Phoenix frames? My first try was a generic quick-release collar, taken apart and stuck through the welded on frame eyes. That wasn't tight enough so I ended up with a flat spot worn on an Am Classic post where it'd slide down. Since then I threaded a heli-coil into one side of the welded on eyes, and ran an M5 bolt through from the other side. That along with a new post fixed the problem, but it looks like crud and makes me wonder if others have run into the problem and what they did to fix it.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

wv_bob said:


> What's everyone using as a seat post binder ont he Phoenix frames? My first try was a generic quick-release collar, taken apart and stuck through the welded on frame eyes. That wasn't tight enough so I ended up with a flat spot worn on an Am Classic post where it'd slide down. Since then I threaded a heli-coil into one side of the welded on eyes, and ran an M5 bolt through from the other side. That along with a new post fixed the problem, but it looks like crud and makes me wonder if others have run into the problem and what they did to fix it.


I just used an M900 seat qr. Worked fine.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

nitram3k said:


> Missed spelled Phoenix on purpose, since that's how it was listed on Ebay. Maybe that's why only 2 people bidded on the bike.
> 
> Best bike I have ever ridden. From local trails, Angeles Crest Forest to many parts in Mexico, great ride every time.


Aaah, thats why you got it for a song. Nice work!


----------



## murd (Oct 30, 2008)

*My 98.*

Here is my 98. 140mm spacing and roller cam. Swapped parts out in 2002. My parents called her their daughter-in-law for many years.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

murd said:


> Here is my 98. 140mm spacing and toggle cam. Swapped parts out in 2002. My parents called her their daughter-in-law for many years.


Very nice. Makes me regret not putting RC bosses on mine


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

When were RC mounts not an option?


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> Very nice. Makes me regret not putting RC bosses on mine


I guess the last ones made had V-Brakes...Does anyone know who bought the Ti Phoenix from a person selling on Ebay over the summer, who literally hacked off the Roller-Cam mounts and had V-Brake mounts "welded" on?  Boy was that a tragic looking frame!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> I guess the last ones made had V-Brakes...Does anyone know who bought the Ti Phoenix from a person selling on Ebay ovdr the summer, who literally hacked off the Roller-Cam mounts and had V-Brake mounts "welded" on?  Boy was that a tragic looking frame!


I heard that that one has been fixed and is now good as new. I hope whoever bought and fixed it posts it for us.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> I heard that that one has been fixed and is now good as new. I hope whoever bought and fixed it posts it for us.


Dude-I thought that wasn't possible...you totally should've done the Roller Cam mount addition to your frame! :nono: Dang!


----------



## murd (Oct 30, 2008)

There are 2 other Phoenix frames cruising Prescott AZ right now. Both steel and standard standard brake bosses. I think they were ordered 99 and 2000.


----------



## fetor (Nov 29, 2006)

*Ti Phoenix*



bushpig said:


> I heard that that one has been fixed and is now good as new. I hope whoever bought and fixed it posts it for us.


That's hilarious. Bushpig knows more about the status of my frame than I do.... guess I'll stop emailing Steve for updates and come to this forum.

Yes, I'm the dope who spent too much on the hacked Ti Phoenix. The frame actually was in very good shape aside from the careless grinding off of the RC mounts. Steve found replacement decals for it and should now be building a fork to match. Maybe BP can give me the status of the fork. 

I'll be sure to post pics when the build is done, although that may be a while. Still need one more set of black roller cam brakes, and I know how eager all of you are to sell/trade a pair to me.

Since it's my first post, I want to thank the regulars of this forum whose collective wisdom I have greatly appreciated since I started lurking about a while ago. I will try and repay this by posting some of my other bike builds that I think you'll like.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

fetor said:


> That's hilarious. Bushpig knows more about the status of my frame than I do.... guess I'll stop emailing Steve for updates and come to this forum.
> 
> Yes, I'm the dope who spent too much on the hacked Ti Phoenix. The frame actually was in very good shape aside from the careless grinding off of the RC mounts. Steve found replacement decals for it and should now be building a fork to match. Maybe BP can give me the status of the fork.
> 
> ...


I'd say you'll get along here juuuust fine. 

Welcome!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

fetor said:


> That's hilarious. Bushpig knows more about the status of my frame than I do.... guess I'll stop emailing Steve for updates and come to this forum.
> 
> Yes, I'm the dope who spent too much on the hacked Ti Phoenix. The frame actually was in very good shape aside from the careless grinding off of the RC mounts. Steve found replacement decals for it and should now be building a fork to match. Maybe BP can give me the status of the fork.
> 
> ...


I can't wait to see it. Steve has just finished refreshing a Ti Phoenix for me which I expect to see in the next few weeks. Steve does forks in batches so hopefully your fork batch will happen soon. You won't regret the wait once you have the bike together!


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



fetor said:


> That's hilarious. Bushpig knows more about the status of my frame than I do.... guess I'll stop emailing Steve for updates and come to this forum.
> 
> Yes, I'm the dope who spent too much on the hacked Ti Phoenix. The frame actually was in very good shape aside from the careless grinding off of the RC mounts. Steve found replacement decals for it and should now be building a fork to match. Maybe BP can give me the status of the fork.
> 
> ...


Fetor,

Welcome aboard and I meant no disrespect, but that frame was really difficult to look at! It took a lot of courage to buy it and attampt to get it back to "normal", the person who sliced off the Roller Cam mounts and slop welded on those V-Brake mounts should hang their head in shame :nono: Glad to hear that it will be back in some good hands and look forwad to seeing photos soon!

I know where you might possibly score 1 black WTB Roller-Cam brake, but it would involve assisting me in convincing the guy that I sold my 1987 purple Fat Chance to - to sell or trade it back to me...If I could only get that bike back I would consider taking the black WTB Roller-Cam brake off, swapping it out with a Suntour XC and then trading the WTB brake to you...my only hurdle is that I sold the bike in a moment of weakness back in 2002 to a bike hoarder and I'm pretty sure that the thing has just been hanging in a store room up north and probably hasn't even been ridden since it left my hands

Send me a PM if you want to scheme up a way to score the Brake,

Regards,

Michael-NYC


----------



## fetor (Nov 29, 2006)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Fetor,
> 
> Welcome aboard and I meant no disrespect, but that frame was really difficult to look at! It took a lot of courage to buy it and attampt to get it back to "normal", the person who sliced off the Roller Cam mounts and slop welded on those V-Brake mounts should hang their head in shame :nono: Glad to hear that it will be back in some good hands and look forwad to seeing photos soon!


I agree, there was a bit of emotion tied to the final bid I made. Although, I did do some research like investigating the company he used to add the canti studs, and getting an opinion of a builder. But aren't those the projects that have the most potential upside... aside from the clueless guy selling his Phoenix on Craigslist for $175 (did one of you get that by the way?), or being an MTBR moderator. You should have seen the old Mustang convertible I brought back to life in high school... that took courage.



Fatmikeynyc said:


> I know where you might possibly score 1 black WTB Roller-Cam brake, but it would involve assisting me in convincing the guy that I sold my 1987 purple Fat Chance to - to sell or trade it back to me...If I could only get that bike back I would consider taking the black WTB Roller-Cam brake off, swapping it out with a Suntour XC and then trading the WTB brake to you...my only hurdle is that I sold the bike in a moment of weakness back in 2002 to a bike hoarder and I'm pretty sure that the thing has just been hanging in a store room up north and probably hasn't even been ridden since it left my hands


I can relate to your regrets about selling the Fat. That's the reason I bought the Ti Phoenix. I acquired a steel Phoenix a while ago, and sold it to pay for another project. I miss that bike.... a lot. Hence the "bit of emotion" when I bought the Ti Phoenix.

I appreciate the help sourcing a roller cam set. I'll PM you to discuss it further.

Also, thanks to Rumpfy and Bushpig for the warm welcomes. BP, I look forward to seeing your Phoenix as well.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Here is a mock up of my 97 Ti Phoenix. Hopefully I will get it built over the winter.


----------



## newsboymerlin (Jan 7, 2005)

nice... looks really like new. 

a.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> Here is a mock up of my 97 Ti Phoenix. Hopefully I will get it built over the winter.


sWeeT! :thumbsup: That's going to be a nice riding bike!

What is that bolt looking thing above the BB shell for and just curious, why did you choose that particular fork, is is based on travel and geometry and V-Brake, I'm assuming it wasn't the color? :skep:


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> sWeeT! :thumbsup: That's going to be a nice riding bike!
> 
> What is that bolt looking thing above the BB shell for and just curious, why did you choose that particular fork, is is based on travel and geometry and V-Brake, I'm assuming it wasn't the color? :skep:


Bolt is for an E-Type derailleur. The fork is a 65mm suspension, V brake and I had it so pretty much hit the tri-fecta!


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



bushpig said:


> Bolt is for an E-Type derailleur. The fork is a 65mm suspension, V brake and I had it so pretty much hit the tri-fecta!


It's nice! 
Too bad the fork wasn't black are you going to do anything else blue and is this bike going to be period correct or are you going for function over fashion?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

That thing is going to be tits. I like the electric blue.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i need a steel phoenix.   :thumbsup:


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> It's nice!
> Too bad the fork wasn't black are you going to do anything else blue and is this bike going to be period correct or are you going for function over fashion?


I agree with Rumpfy, I think the blue looks pretty decent. The bike is from 97 and since I don't fee particularly sentimental about that time, I'm not going to go period correct with it.


----------



## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Bolt is for an E-Type derailleur. The fork is a 65mm suspension, V brake and I had it so pretty much hit the tri-fecta!


That fork sure has a lot of stanchion tube showing for 65mm of travel. I dig the electric blue look against the stark titanium. :thumbsup:


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

ssmike said:


> That fork sure has a lot of stanchion tube showing for 65mm of travel. I dig the electric blue look against the stark titanium. :thumbsup:


Yea, I was thinking the same thing about the fork. It was billed as 65mm


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Yea, I was thinking the same thing about the fork. It was billed as 65mm


your BB looks slightly too tall. as if the fork has 15mm more travel


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

bushpig said:


> Yea, I was thinking the same thing about the fork. It was billed as 65mm


The SIDs lowers have a slightly different (shorter) casting than the Judys leaving more stanchion showing.


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

A terrible picture, but I never claimed to be a photographer


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



wv_bob said:


> A terrible picture, but I never claimed to be a photographer


That's actually quite a cool looking bike!


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks, it rides better than it looks


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



wv_bob said:


> Thanks, it rides better than it looks


I'm sure it does! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Yesterday when I were shopping for Sinterklaas' chocolate letters I got a call my Phoenix is ready at the painter and I can pick it up. Will do that upcoming week. I am really looking forward.

To fresh up your memory: This is how it looked when I got it =>










Eek!

I know.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Elevation12 said:


> Yesterday when I were shopping for Sinterklaas' chocolate letters I got a call my Phoenix is ready at the painter and I can pick it up. Will do that upcoming week. I am really looking forward.
> 
> To fresh up your memory: This is how it looked when I got it =>
> 
> ...


Why did you have it painted, was there any particular area where it was very rusty?
Also, who is doing the paint for you and will there be original decals?


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

There was some underrusting visible under the paint. Repaint was necessary if I wanted to preserve this frame into the future. It was also an excuse to get rid of the red, as I am not a very 'red type of guy' generally. In particular not this red.

I decided for a very deep gloss black with mousegrey lower section of the Type 2. Text DT and TT are sprayed on and will be in mousgrey with silver. ST and chainstay decal are in black-silver. I wanted this from the beginning. Of course I can't wait to head to the painter and see how this worked out.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*

Is this the type of "under rusting" that you saw on your frame? 
Here is my Phoenix and this "spidery rust" under the paint as well as a bunch of chips where you see bare steel on mine is leaning me towards a repaint:









I was thinking of going all silver (like the fork is) via D+D mainly to preserve the frame from future rust issues...








Anyone have any thoughts/advice??


----------



## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

Last week Lauren rode the Ti-Phoenix for the "Turkeyride" at Fairfax.









When... I WalK my Ibis SS pretty much the whole way up since my old Sachs "new success" rear derailleur Hand made spring lost temper half way on the trip (i'm sure I did something wrong when I heat/cool it down) and the chainsuck was just to persistent to let me ride it. so for now on is back to the trusty M900 parts that never ever fail.

We also found a sister along the way.









I think Lauren is going to keep the Phoenix as one of her bike for now one, at least with the "funky" handlebars it fit her far better (Even if the effective top tube is almost 23" long) plus I guess i'm much to chubby and the frame flexes (B.B and rear end) far to much for my taste (much more than the Ibis and the Yo-Eddy's for sure)


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Anyone have any thoughts/advice??


Ya. Just build and ride it.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Rumpfy said:


> Ya. Just build and ride it.


Let me Re-Phrase that; "Anyone except Rumpfy who rides bikes with holes in them..."


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Is this the type of "under rusting" that you saw on your frame?
> Here is my Phoenix and this "spidery rust" under the paint as well as a bunch of chips where you see bare steel on mine is leaning me towards a repaint:


It is a bit tough to see on pics, but with mine it looked like those little worms. They were on front ST and on top TT.

PM'ed you.


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Is this the type of "under rusting" that you saw on your frame?
> Here is my Phoenix and this "spidery rust" under the paint as well as a bunch of chips where you see bare steel on mine is leaning me towards a repaint:


When I first got my Phoenix it looked like it had rust under the paint in pretty much that same spot. I sanded it down, and it wasn't rust, but it was so long ago that I don't remember what it was. I found some paint that was close enough to hide the little spot I sanded.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Let me Re-Phrase that; "Anyone except Rumpfy who rides bikes with holes in them..."


Major rust, sure...take it down and re-do it (unless you're me, then you leave it anyway.  ).
I just wasn't seeing any in the picture you posted, rust worm or otherwise.

I just know you're going to take that bike and put the tall stem, flat pedals, and goofy seat on it and have it be immaculate and its going to sit. :nonod:


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

patineto said:


> Last week Lauren rode the Ti-Phoenix for the "Turkeyride" at Fairfax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the the deal with the taper chainstays on the top Ti phoenix? I've not seen those on a Ti.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

bushpig said:


> What is the the deal with the taper chainstays on the top Ti phoenix? I've not seen those on a Ti.


i like that wtb stem
.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*Classic Ti Phoenix SN 98062*


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



Rumpfy said:


> Major rust, sure...take it down and re-do it (unless you're me, then you leave it anyway.  ).
> I just wasn't seeing any in the picture you posted, rust worm or otherwise.
> 
> I just know you're going to take that bike and put the tall stem, flat pedals, and goofy seat on it and have it be immaculate and its going to sit. :nonod:


OK, maybe I'm overeacting but I read one of those old articles where Steve Potts apparently didn't allow for any moisture to escape from the tubes if it got in there because he felt that frame owners should be taught proper frame care to avoid that from happening...Plus I got a little freaked when I saw the red Phoenix that looked mint to me and supposedly had rust and even though it's hard to see in the photo there's defintely something doing under the paint, maybe it's nothing worth worrying about... I could use new "Phoenix" decals for the top tube though, but I don't think that's on the Rumpfy priority list either 

BTW-Since you already raised the issue I actually do have *THE MOST REPULSIVE* stem picked out for my Phoenix I bought it with you in mind! But sadly no seat yet, WTB has had some real ugly ones lately so I have a lot to choose from, White, Silver, Camo...Now that I already have kids I may not need to use those testicle saver seats that I had on some of my rides, so I'll probably get something flashy just to get your goat 

I actually do plan on riding this Phoenix, I need to get back in shape after not riding for too long plus that way the rest of my bikes can remain as "Living Room Queens" and after all of the hype I really do want to see what the magic is all about with the Phoenix :thumbsup:


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

who got it?


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Steve Potts apparently didn't allow for any moisture to escape from the tubes


I agree, I could've only helped to leave at least a weep hole to get any moisture out. I spent some time trying to decide a way to safely drill up into the seat tube from the bottom bracket. In the end it seemed like a stupid idea to take a chance on ruining the thing to prevent something that might not happen.



Fatmikeynyc said:


> even though it's hard to see in the photo there's defintely something doing under the paint, maybe it's nothing worth worrying about...


As posted above


> When I first got my Phoenix it looked like it had rust under the paint in pretty much that same spot. I sanded it down, and it wasn't rust, but it was so long ago that I don't remember what it was. I found some paint that was close enough to hide the little spot I sanded.


But you gotta get brave and break out the sandpaper.  I'll admit it was a lot easier to do 10 years ago than it would be today though.

Even though I don't remember specifics, I'm pretty sure what I found was IN the paint, not under it, so once the paint was off the tube was clean. Sometimes a guy's gotta do what paranoia wants him to do though. A strip and repaint won't hurt anything but your wallet.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> You talkin' about the recent CL one?


yessir


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

hollister said:


> who got it?


You talkin' about the recent CL one?


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

wv_bob said:


> I spent some time trying to decide a way to safely drill up into the seat tube from the bottom bracket.


Through the threaded hole used to attached the plastic bottom bracket cable guide?


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

DoubleCentury said:


> Through the threaded hole used to attached the plastic bottom bracket cable guide?


Yeah exactly ... there is no plastic guide, so I'd have to go up through both sides of the BB shell and hit the middle of the seat tube, or find a long punch to mark where to drill coming down from the top and use a long drill extension to get the bit down there. The more I thought about it the less sense it made to do it


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*The Phoenix Thread*



wv_bob said:


> When I first got my Phoenix it looked like it had rust under the paint in pretty much that same spot. I sanded it down, and it wasn't rust, but it was so long ago that I don't remember what it was. I found some paint that was close enough to hide the little spot I sanded.


I'm not going to mess with it myself, I'm not that crafty!

I'll keep everyone posted on this whether I just build it up or decide to paint it...chances are I will just go for a build right now...


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

DoubleCentury!

I have tried to comment on your: Classic Ti Phoenix SN 98062 twice since you posted it this morning and for some reason it won't register!! 

It's Awesome! Even though it doesn't seem "Vintage" it's a 10 year old bike that isn't made any longer, but it's a killer build, did you put this together or did you get it complete?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> DoubleCentury!
> 
> I have tried to comment on your: Classic Ti Phoenix SN 98062 twice since you posted it this morning and for some reason it won't register!!
> 
> It's Awesome! Even though it doesn't seem "Vintage" it's a 10 year old bike that isn't made any longer, but it's a killer build, did you put this together or did you get it complete?


I heard that there were some posting issues with putting text in the title field. Were you doing that?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

*Lol!*



Fillet-brazed said:


> I heard that there were some posting issues with putting text in the title field. Were you doing that?


LOL! Only if you retype it in for every post you make.


----------



## Fatmikeynyc (Jun 20, 2005)

*LOL! Only if you retype it in for every post you make*



Rumpfy said:


> LOL! Only if you retype it in for every post you make.


Hey What do you mean Rumpfy? 

So who here got the SF area Phoenix? The seller didn't even answer my desperate plea...


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> The seller didn't even answer my desperate plea...


you're the fourth person I've heard that from


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> DoubleCentury!
> It's Awesome! Even though it doesn't seem "Vintage" it's a 10 year old bike that isn't made any longer, but it's a killer build, did you put this together or did you get it complete?


Acquired as a complete bike, that needed a service overhaul and a few modifications. This is a no-nonsense build that will service as my primary hardtail, replacing a Ritchey NiTi with a similar M952 build. In the future the fork will be replaced with something lighter.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Yes DC, great chassis. It is obvious you created a very enjoyable rider.

Got my Phoenix and Type II from the painter this week. Already have some pics of the Type II =>

















Neatly done. Happy with it.


----------



## Pottser (Jan 30, 2004)

This thread is so much fun. Your type II looks fantastic. I love to see the rest of your paintjob. I like to show my Phoenix riding the Austrian Alps last summer. I bought this frame somewhere in 1994/1995 and I still ride it many miles.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fatmikeynyc said:


> Hey What do you mean Rumpfy?
> 
> So who here got the SF area Phoenix? The seller didn't even answer my desperate plea...


Haha!

Didn't answer my emails either. I'm sure whomever called first had the best chance.

Besides...thats territory encroachment. :skep:


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Pottser said:


> This thread is so much fun. Your type II looks fantastic. I love to see the rest of your paintjob. I like to show my Phoenix riding the Austrian Alps last summer. I bought this frame somewhere in 1994/1995 and I still ride it many miles.


Great action shot of the Phoenix.

Just got back from riding mine in Santa Cruz today as it were.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Quickpic !










Hope to have it rolling somewhere in ....2000 and 9 !


----------



## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Nice one Melvin!

I noticed that the ends of the legs on your Type II aren't scallowed/spoon-shaped, but 'flat'... thats somewhat weird. Than again, your Phoenix also has rack mounts and a different cable routing than mine (cause of the chainstay-mounted brake). I thought that was done only on the earlier modell, whereas your's is a later one than mine (different dropouts and decalling).


----------



## Pottser (Jan 30, 2004)

Hi, it turned out great. Is the colour black on the mainframe? 

Jeroen: this Type II was made by Wes Williams, because at that time Steve didn't have time to build a Type II. One of the few who were allowed allowed to build Type II is/was Wes Williams. The fork was sent back to WTB and painted together with the frame. 

The original owner wanted racks front and rear, because he wanted to use it for touring. That's the reason of course for the braze-ons but also for the different cable route and brake position. I am glad it showed up again. I hope you ride it a lot, that's what Phoenix are famous for.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Thank you for the kind words

Colour of frame and upper section of fork is a very deep gloss black. The decals are in mousegrey, as is the lower section of the Type II. 

Will only use neutral colours in the build ...except for tyre flanges. 

Already from the start of the project I know what I want. I am only undecided on whether to go for XC Pro or XTR m900. Suntour has a link with WTB through Grease Guard, what makes it a good pick, but maybe XTR has a tiny little bit more class. Class to complement the class of the frame.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Elevation12 said:


> Thank you for the kind words
> 
> Colour of frame and upper section of fork is a very deep gloss black. The decals are in mousegrey, as is the lower section of the Type II.
> 
> ...


xtr is better. why build it w/ something worse? "cool factor" ?


----------



## datenschwanz (Jul 12, 2004)

the taper chain stay on the ti one is the sandvik chain stay, from what i've been told.


----------



## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

m900 is so played out.  

Go with the XC Pro.


----------



## bradmtb (Mar 16, 2006)

*Front derailleur and custom paint?*

Trying to find out if the Phoenix takes a 31.8mm FD w/ bottom pull 
and bottom or top swing?
Also, any recommendations for custom painter for my '96 Phoenix around
the SF Bay Area?
Thanks


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Hi BradMTB,

Front derailleur with my True Temper Phoenix (probably the same as your 1996 one) is 34,9mm in diameter. Bottom pull. I personally would go for the conventional design, the down swing.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

bradmtb said:


> Trying to find out if the Phoenix takes a 31.8mm FD w/ bottom pull
> and bottom or top swing?
> Also, any recommendations for custom painter for my '96 Phoenix around
> the SF Bay Area?
> Thanks


As for paint, D+D Cycles in San Lorenzo did the original paint work on the Phoenix's and might have decals as well.


----------



## fetor (Nov 29, 2006)

*Risen from the ashes....*

I promised to post some pics of my Ti Phoenix project when it was finally done, but Mike at BlackMountain Cycles has already posted a much better story about the bike than I could ever write:
http://blackmountaincycles.blogspot.com/2009/01/wtb-titanium-phoenix.html

I owe a huge thanks to Mike Varley for building the bike and figuring out a workaround to the rear brake issue. What other bike shop can get your roller-cam modification approved by Charlie himself?

Thanks to FatMikeynyc and Bushpig for help with sourcing the front roller-cam.

It's 70 degrees outside right now... a perfect day to take the Phoenix on it's maiden voyage.

-fetor


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

fetor said:


> I promised to post some pics of my Ti Phoenix project when it was finally done, but Mike at BlackMountain Cycles has already posted a much better story about the bike than I could ever write:
> http://blackmountaincycles.blogspot.com/2009/01/wtb-titanium-phoenix.html
> 
> I owe a huge thanks to Mike Varley for building the bike and figuring out a workaround to the rear brake issue. What other bike shop can get your roller-cam modification approved by Charlie himself?
> ...


Looks super nice. Someday I'll have to try me a ti one.


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Here's a pic of my Phoenix at the top of today's climb - the temps were in the mid to upper 20s F. I bought the frame at a swap nearly two years ago, and it included the rear toggle cam brake. The frame had a crack at the seat binder when I bought it, so I sent it to Steve for repairs. It recently came back with the crack repaired, a new fork, and a spiffy new white paint job (previously it was black). The build includes WTB brakes, hubs, and bar - otherwise it's mostly Shimano m900 XTR.

I'm not crazy about the stem. It puts the bars in the right place, but it does not do it with any style. Hopefully there's a solution to that in the future. In the mean time I'll ride it as is. Today I was out for 2 hours and 45 minutes and climbed about 2400 feet. The bike rode great.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

laffeaux said:


> I'm not crazy about the stem.


What the _hell_ man.


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> What the _hell_ man.


I appreciate the gift.  When I find a different stem I'll send this one back to you.


----------



## Williwoods (May 3, 2004)

sick bike needs a limp digit for sure.


----------



## Rob M. (Aug 30, 2005)

The bike looks great E. I really like the picture also. I think this bike needs it's own thread. If you wouldnt have told me you posted, I wouldnt have checked this thread.
Happy Trails


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Does anyone have a readable copy of the Phoenix catalog, or know what the effective top tube length is for a 15" frame? I tried the catalog at http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/WTB/1996.pdf but can't read it. Reason for asking: 29er shopping


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

wv_bob said:


> Does anyone have a readable copy of the Phoenix catalog, or know what the effective top tube length is for a 15" frame? I tried the catalog at http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/WTB/1996.pdf but can't read it. Reason for asking: 29er shopping


22.75


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks BP


----------



## GoldenEraMTB (Aug 25, 2008)

Pottser said:


> This thread is so much fun. Your type II looks fantastic. I love to see the rest of your paintjob. I like to show my Phoenix riding the Austrian Alps last summer. I bought this frame somewhere in 1994/1995 and I still ride it many miles.


Great action shot 

Good thread...I was able to gather some info regarding seatposts/sizing/etc...but there's a lot more I want to read. Anyone have more resources on these bikes...including a readable copy of the phoenix catalogue?

Thanks


----------



## GoldenEraMTB (Aug 25, 2008)

bushpig said:


> What is the the deal with the taper chainstays on the top Ti phoenix? I've not seen those on a Ti.





datenschwanz said:


> the taper chain stay on the ti one is the sandvik chain stay, from what i've been told.


:madman: help please.

I just picked up a Phoenix Ti, and need some clarification on this issue brought up in this thread, but not really clarified.

So does the Ti Phoenix come with tapered chain stays or not? Does it come with both tapered and non-tapered? Is there such thing as a non-steve potts built Ti Phoenix or replicas/knock-offs floating around out there?

any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Both were made. Most I have seen are not tapered but some are tapered. Potts built the Phoenixes.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Hello fellow WTB afficiados,

Hope to have the Phoenix finished for upcoming OWMTBC event. 

I will be fitting the original New Paradigm headset. I want to have it properly assembled and prefer to install loose balls instead of balls fitted in a ring. What size balls do they take? Okay, I can see with my eye I must be 5/32 or 4mm ...but which of the two?

The New Paradigm bottom bracket will not make its return. Pottser convinced me it is not the most ingenious product ever designed by the WTB crew, so a Suntour XC Pro MD unit will be installed instead. Same Q! What size ball? 5/32 or 4mm.

Of course I did a quite extensive search for it by myself (BikePro, old Suntour and WTB NP catalogue), but I simply couldn't find it.


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Unless something is funky with this stuff it should be Imperial, i.e. 5/32.


----------



## ckevlar (Feb 9, 2005)

The suntour bottom bracket from the factory runs 1/4" loose balls (if my memory banks are working today) so you should not need additional bearings in there.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Thanks for your contribution both

Untill recently I were always under the assumption everthing used was imperial size. Untill I encountered some specs on the web that several headsets (dia compe, DA7400) take 4mm balls. No idea whether that is a fact or result of non accurate writing up of stuff by some people, but it surprised me ...and of course the material that we WTB afficiados are working on has to be preserved into eternity, so every job on it has to be performed properly. Hence me questioning.

ckevlar, I do know the regular and more common XC Pro bb takes 11 1/4'' balls. This is a MD unit however and it is somewhat different, including the size of the balls used.


----------



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Spotted outside the Iron Springs Brewery. This guy is a rider, not a collector.


----------



## GoldenEraMTB (Aug 25, 2008)

must be nice to not have to lock up your bike when going around town.
I'd get suspicious if I saw a guy casing my ride while I'm picking up something to eat


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

I repurposed the old girl with a drop-bar setup. I'm really happy with the result.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

That looks super fun. How do you like the Woodchippers?


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

So far so good on the woodchippers. Nice and wide, plenty of hand positions. The extension may be too long for veteran barcon users, but I don't know the difference so it's not a problem for me. 

The only thing I wish I'd done different, is to rotate the barcons 90* so they shift horizontally and can't hit the top tube. I didn't think of that, and after I'd wrapped the bars I noticed a bike in the 29er monstercross thread set up that way. Don't want to take the chance of tearing the wrap, so I'm leaving them as they are for now.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Good tip. It's those little things you learn by doing 
Another longer term project is to make my Monster a drop bar set up so I am trying to glean as much info as I can.


----------



## Werner (Nov 9, 2005)

my both Phoenix.

Werner


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Very nice Werner!!


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Yes, very nice. That looks like a series 1 and a series 2 to me. Interesting to see how you made the Rock Shox enable to take the cam.


----------



## Werner (Nov 9, 2005)

here is a picture from the lever linking on the frontbrake from the red one.
the white one is from '93,and the red one from '94 

Werner


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow! Did you go through WTB when you got the bikes or did you go through Steve and Charlie directly?


----------



## Werner (Nov 9, 2005)

Hi,
here are some informations about the linking from the roller cam.
The threads and dimensions are in inch and not in mm
i found the linking together with a WTB rollercam (compact version)in a bikeshop about 25 miles from my home. I
think itwas about 5 years ago.The shopowner didn't give me
any informations about the parts,but he told me that he sold 
many parts to "collectors"
His own bike is a Ritchey super comp.
now he is selling garden tools,powermower and motorsaws.
did someone know more about the linking? I think it was no serial produktion

Werner


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Werner said:


> Hi,
> here are some informations about the linking from the roller cam.
> The threads and dimensions are in inch and not in mm
> i found the linking together with a WTB rollercam (compact version)in a bikeshop about 25 miles from my home. I
> ...


Yes, that's called a Lever Link and it's Charlie's favorite version of the RC platform. It was never sold because of WTB's concern with people not knowing how to properly adjust them and having unfavorable consequences (liability) if adjusted incorrectly. I have one on my Phoenix which I think is somewhere in this thread. It works really nicely and is very easily adjusted compared to a roller cam.


----------



## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

Werner said:


> here is a picture from the lever linking on the frontbrake from the red one.
> the white one is from '93,and the red one from '94
> 
> Werner


Pardon the blasphemy, (as it's a beautiful brake and set up), but without the actual cam, it looks like a lot like the world's most elegant v-brake. I'm looking at the action of the arms and cable pull...am I seeing it wrong?

Steve


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

eastcoaststeve said:


> Pardon the blasphemy, (as it's a beautiful brake and set up), but without the actual cam, it looks like a lot like the world's most elegant v-brake. I'm looking at the action of the arms and cable pull...am I seeing it wrong?
> 
> Steve


Yes, you're seeing it backwards.  The arms push outward - opposite the V brake.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

I had already covered it here extensively, but I reasoned the final result belongs in 'The Phoenix Thread'

The finished Phoenix >>


----------



## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

What the hell, here's mine. Its set-up for being ridden hence the not period correct Groovy ti bars.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Nice. That saddle is a winner too.


----------



## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

dirtdrop said:


> What the hell, here's mine. Its set-up for being ridden hence the not period correct Groovy ti bars.


Nice  I have a mate who is riding with the Luv Handles on his Groovy. He likes it a lot. The bar shown on my Phoenix is also by Rody, but conventional flat. Custom specs I asked for are 585mm wide and 6 degrees sweep. Rody even manufactured a ti shim with it.

On the ''set-up for being ridden'' comment: To me it looks like most bikes in this thread are meant to be ridden. Some more than others, but they are no show bikes. I think that is a cool thing.


----------



## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

My new, NOS 1995 Phoenix. 18" Forest Green, 140mm rear spacing, suspension corrected. Serial number 95372.

Full writeup here: https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=621722


----------



## Sir H C (May 27, 2010)

New here, but 2 WTB Phoenix bikes. I should scan the catalogs from them too (I have two when I first was hoping to get a Phoenix):

this is a frame I got, and am still in the process of building it up. Getting a type II fork made for it:










And here is a Ti one that I have that I love and ride all the time:










I changed the fork on this one (came with the bike when I bought it), as the fork in the picture was too long and make the bike steer like a cadillac, now with a Fox 80 mm fork, it is a nimble awesome machine.

have to get updated pictures...


----------



## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Nice. That saddle is a winner too.


Ha, I was just about to say I want that seat.


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Sir H C said:


> New here, but 2 WTB Phoenix bikes. I should scan the catalogs from them too (I have two when I first was hoping to get a Phoenix):
> 
> this is a frame I got, and am still in the process of building it up. Getting a type II fork made for it


Nice pair. Who's making your type II? I was under the impression that Potts was no longer making them.


----------



## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Sir H C said:


> New here, but 2 WTB Phoenix bikes. I should scan the catalogs from them too (I have two when I first was hoping to get a Phoenix):
> 
> this is a frame I got, and am still in the process of building it up. Getting a type II fork made for it:
> 
> ...


Great frames, and Ti bike just look so "right". I would love to seethe catalog scans if you get the chance.


----------



## Sir H C (May 27, 2010)

Potts is supposedly doing it. I paid him a while back for it.


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

apat13 said:


> I would love to seethe catalog scans if you get the chance.


Me too - the Phoenix catalog I know of on the web is too grainy to read in places

http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/WTB/1996.pdf

and also

http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/html/wtb.html


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Sir H C said:


> New here, but 2 WTB Phoenix bikes. I should scan the catalogs from them too (I have two when I first was hoping to get a Phoenix):
> 
> this is a frame I got, and am still in the process of building it up. Getting a type II fork made for it:
> 
> ...


Two great bikes! :thumbsup:


----------



## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

I finally get to play...picked this up earlier this year, ran SS while I collected some turn of the century bits. 94 SE SN 94250 (as far as I can read through the paint).










Sorry for the lack of detail in the pics, I took them in haste and have been meaning to get some better ones...but they should give you the idea.

Here she is geared up with a 2000 model Marz Z2 X-Fly - rebuilt, 1" steerer pressed in and reduced to 60mm, like buttah. NOS SST.98 saddle and Thomson 410mm post. Hubs are WTB Momentum GG, rear rim is a Laser Beam front is Mavic 717.










SRAM 9.0 SL rear mech, M900 cassette and chain. 









M900 front mech and RF Turbine LP cranks, BB is a NOS WTB Momentum GG, 747 pedals that have seen better days but will not die ;-)










King 1" MTB headset came with the bike, the X-Fly was nicely destickered. Front brakes are late 90s SRAM 9.0.










Thomson 100mm post, Easton Monkey Light XC bar, SRAM 9.0 grip shifters. Speed Dial Ultimate levers handle the rear toggle cam and front V just fine.










Eric


----------



## Ashes (Jan 19, 2011)

Man, I have not thought much about my trusty phoenix since it's last re-haul circa 2002. Used it for the occasional trail ride, but mainly for towing a B.O.B. around town. I've been mostly road riding for most of the past decade. Having fallen head over heals for trail riding again over this winter, I came on to the forums recently to lurk and re-learn a few of the details about my 95XXX serial, suspension adjusted 15" phoenix, and my mind is blown by the community of Phoenix lovers out there. I approve.

Mine is quite a mutt, but think that I have a few old classic parts that you all might dig, and some that will make you chuckle. I'll post pictures here soon. 

Thanks for all the info, and the memories.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Ashes said:


> Man, I have not thought much about my trusty phoenix since it's last re-haul circa 2002. Used it for the occasional trail ride, but mainly for towing a B.O.B. around town. I've been mostly road riding for most of the past decade. Having fallen head over heals for trail riding again over this winter, I came on to the forums recently to lurk and re-learn a few of the details about my 95XXX serial, suspension adjusted 15" phoenix, and my mind is blown by the community of Phoenix lovers out there. I approve.
> 
> Mine is quite a mutt, but think that I have a few old classic parts that you all might dig, and some that will make you chuckle. I'll post pictures here soon.
> 
> Thanks for all the info, and the memories.


Post pics anyway!


----------



## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

from 1996


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Rider:


----------



## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

Another rider  Less gears this time.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

So, umm, anyone got a spare seat tube decal in silver kicking around?


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Yesterday:









Today:


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

well? what did ya think? Needs different hubs! (Everything else I can live with. ) Seems like lots of Californians smathered on some sunscreen and went riding today! woo hoo!


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Full write-up coming soon. Suffice to say, what a well-mannered bike!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

rear tire must go... my eyes! beautifull frame color. beautifull build.


----------



## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

Frame 2 big


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Funny, didn't feel like it 2 me.

Full write-up here: http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/1998-wtb-phoenix-765286.html


----------



## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

2 jealous!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Got my '96 up and out for a shake down ride. Liking it. I have raced this bike locally but tweaked the build a bit.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Nice turbo. ( i know i am heading for a phoenix..)


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Turbo_Matic_! Looks great---the Steelman stem turned out to work really well.


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Bushpig- how did you get a Lever Link brake? I thought they never went into production.


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

"its not what you know, its who you know.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> rear tire must go... my eyes! beautifull frame color. beautifull build.


Agreed. Otherwise, cool Phoenix.



muddybuddy said:


> "its not what you know, its who you know.


Yep!


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

My '98 Ti is in heavy ride rotation lately. Yesterday on Eldridge Grade (Mt. Tam):


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

muddybuddy said:


> "its not what you know, its who you know.


Yep. From the WTB vault, this is an original lever link (and Charlie's favorite version):


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

muddybuddy said:


> "its not what you know, its who you know.


Or what you know how to do.


----------



## moonter (Oct 14, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Or what you know how to do.
> 
> View attachment 670149


Nice.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

DoubleCentury said:


> Or what you know how to do.
> 
> Funny!


----------



## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

You have to be light on that brake so you don't crush your rim sidewalls!


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

With a booster plate and this amount of leverage, the source of flex becomes the brake arms themselves. One finger braking for sure.


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

DoubleCentury said:


> Or what you know how to do.
> 
> View attachment 670149


Is that a mix of original and your handiwork? Or, all yours?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

muddybuddy said:


> Is that a mix of original and your handiwork? Or, all yours?


Pretty sure arms are original, lever link and brace portions are DC specials.


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Pretty sure arms are original, lever link and brace portions are DC specials.


(Fork) Brace is vintage too.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

That's right, the Judy fork arch was a WTB product and really beefy. I made the link and booster.


----------



## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Am I alone in thinking subpar braking is all a part of the vintage experience? 

j/k. Nice work as always. Looks better in person.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> With a booster plate and this amount of leverage, the source of flex becomes the brake arms themselves. One finger braking for sure.


Especially when one rides the brakes as much as you do.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Halaburt's ti is awesome. Never any issues with the Moratis? The scary internet pics seem to suggest they are worth more than they're, well, worth.



yo-Nate-y said:


> So, umm, anyone got a spare seat tube decal in silver kicking around?


And this, quoted for desperation/persistence.....none 'round?


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Halaburt's ti is awesome. Never any issues with the Moratis? The scary internet pics seem to suggest they are worth more than they're, well, worth


that goes without saying.


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Halaburt's ti is awesome. Never any issues with the Moratis? The scary internet pics seem to suggest they are worth more than they're, well, worth.


So far, so good. I do keep an eye on it though. Those went on it when the bike was new. I recall at the time not being able to find a new set of 181 CBR's (what I ran on all my other bikes at the time) and I couldn't bring myself to run the (IMO) ugly Shimano M950's.



girlonbike said:


> that goes without saying.


I'll assume you're referring to the part of Nate's comment about how awesome my bike is.


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

This really pretty much has to be the best thread ever  great pics and info lately :thumbsup:


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

halaburt said:


> So far, so good. I do keep an eye on it though. Those went on it when the bike was new. I recall at the time not being able to find a new set of 181 CBR's (what I ran on all my other bikes at the time) and I couldn't bring myself to run the (IMO) ugly Shimano M950's.
> 
> I'll assume you're referring to the part of Nate's comment about how awesome my bike is.


awesome indeed! otoh i have to ask: why not barcons? I like them so much since i can shift on any situation and, being inside the bar, it gives a very solid platform for the levers. mho.. just curious.


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> awesome indeed! otoh i have to ask: why not barcons? I like them so much since i can shift on any situation and, being inside the bar, it gives a very solid platform for the levers. mho.. just curious.


You mean barcon shifters on the Kelly mounts?... or on in the traditional position? I assume the former?

At the time I don't think I knew/understood that Shimano barcons could use the same mount platform as the down tube type shifters. All the Kelly material only talked about DT shifters. Now that I know, I'd like to try the fatter/shorter barcon types on these mounts but just haven't gotten around to it.

I've got barcons (in the traditional position) on Salsa Woodchippers on my Fargo and like that a lot actually... For future flared drop bar bikes running >8sp, I would probably go that route now. For <=8sp, I do like the various WTB mounts.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Barcons, traditional, inside the bars. I like it.


----------



## Stylus (Oct 9, 2008)

yo-Nate-y said:


> .....none 'round?


I could also use a set of decals, in my case the newer ones.


----------



## mrjustin007 (Jul 22, 2008)

Is my seatpost too long?


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

You might be better on an 18".


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

...or playing basketball.


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

mrjustin007 said:


> Is my seatpost too long?


You might also ask the same question about your fork.


----------



## mrjustin007 (Jul 22, 2008)

yo-Nate-y said:


> You might be better on an 18".


I think so, I've been looking for a trade. . .



colker1 said:


> ...or playing basketball.


I still play recreationally. I'm 6'5", but only have a 34" inseam, and a long torso.



halaburt said:


> You might also ask the same question about your fork.


It's a Z2 BAM, 1998, I think, so it should be 70mm, right?


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

mrjustin007 said:


> I think so, I've been looking for a trade. . .
> 
> I still play recreationally. I'm 6'5", but only have a 34" inseam, and a long torso.


You would definitely be better served with an 18... Didn't someone just recently pick up a large Phoenix frame and want a medium?


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Does it interfere with the water bottle braze ons.....


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

GMF said:


> You would definitely be better served with an 18... Didn't someone just recently pick up a large Phoenix frame and want a medium?


I remember that too. Justin, do a search, I think I remember that in the trade thread or WIW thread.


----------



## mrjustin007 (Jul 22, 2008)

girlonbike said:


> I remember that too. Justin, do a search, I think I remember that in the trade thread or WIW thread.


GOB - I posted in a couple of places looking for a trade, so it may be my posts you are thinking of. Have 15" looking for 18" or 19.5", not the other way around.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

For thread comprehensiveness. The current build on my '98.


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## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

that looks nice!

Does anyone know if there were any top pull front derailleur Ti Phoenix?

Are those the ones sold in the early 2000's and finished by others than SP?


----------



## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

Machianera said:


> Does anyone know if there were any top pull front derailleur Ti Phoenix?
> 
> Are those the ones sold in the early 2000's and finished by others than SP?


Gee, I wonder why you ask. ;p

I don't think any production, made-by-SP ones came that way --- although obviously customers could request some customization. As for you second question, I don't think it's just a start/finish thing. Look at the serial number (if any).


----------



## Machianera (Feb 5, 2011)

halaburt said:


> Gee, I wonder why you ask. ;p
> 
> I don't think any production, made-by-SP ones came that way --- although obviously customers could request some customization. As for you second question, I don't think it's just a start/finish thing. Look at the serial number (if any).


Just curious 

I was hanging out with a friend that used to have a couple of phoenix back then. He told me about a disk brake model with top pull routing. There is a picture of what i think is the bike on the BMC blog (650 conversion)...

I guess they are wtb frames but no phoenix.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Mine at Bernal Heights, and with a ti jobbie on the Flume Trail in Tahoe (my filter= plastic baggie).


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

And a couple less gauzy pics:


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Very stoked to now sport a Type II thanks to a gracious fellow MTBR and Fat Cog'er:


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

How do you like Mary?


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Those are Groovy Luv Handles and I like them a lot. A nice swept ti bar would also be cool (and lighter), but the Luvs are super comfy.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

You're getting there! Those forks look perfect on there.


----------



## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Very stoked to now sport a Type II thanks to a gracious fellow MTBR and Fat Cog'er:


Looks amazing!


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Now, that's a proper Phoenix. Goofy bars aside.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

mainlyfats said:


> Looks amazing!


Much obliged!


----------



## ColsonTwinbar (Sep 21, 2012)

Hi everyone,
I've been peeping around this thread every once in a while over the last decade and finally decided to drop in and share a story and get some guidance on what to do with my 1998? WTB Phoenix

It's a bit of a miracle that I have this bike, I was on a rare visit to my uncle in Mill Valley in 2001 where I spotted a bike, missing its wheels and seat post, tucked next to a shed. I asked him about it and he said he pulled it off the top of a truck load he was hired to take from a house that was being repossessed. He figured it was someone who lost their shirt in the dot com boom. I told him what it was which was surprising since he grew up in the middle of the whole Mt Tam scene. He gave it to me as a late birthday present (12th) and I took it to Steve, who happens to be an old family friend, to see if he had the odd sized seat post. After I got it all rolling, I got to ride it around Mt Tam and the hills above Pt Reyes a few times before heading back to Washington, where it was an everyday rider more than a mountain bike. Now I've been in college for the last few years and have grown out of the bike, and haven't been riding it, I can't justify selling it, but want to give it a proper build so that I'll ride it. I was planning to put disks on it as I already had wheel and fork mounts and Steve said he'd weld a rear mount on for me. 
I don't consider myself a mountain biker, but do restore and collect Prewar bicycles and have rebuilt a few Klunkers for family who had them back in the day. So I just want some advice one what you guys would do. 
-Nolan


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I definitely wouldn't get disc mounts. I would wash, wax, put a bunch of nice xtr parts on it and enjoy the hell out of it.

Not only would I do that but I do do that.


----------



## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

+1 on the no discs. As far as you out growing the bike, you might try to find someone to trade sizes with you to get one that fits properly. Or if you're dead set on the discs, you could maybe trade it for a frame that already has disc mounts. Post a pic of it when you get a chance.


----------



## ColsonTwinbar (Sep 21, 2012)

Just posted an image in my gallery as I cannot post links yet. 
The kicker would be that the mount would be welded on by Steve Potts himself, It has been the only change I have considered as the braking power of the old wtb roller cams is not that impressive compared to disks.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

ColsonTwinbar said:


> Just posted an image in my gallery as I cannot post links yet.
> The kicker would be that the mount would be welded on by Steve Potts himself, It has been the only change I have considered as the braking power of the old wtb roller cams is not that impressive compared to disks.


That really doesn't change anything to me. Don't do it.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Actually, just send me those sucky WTB roller cams and get yourself some disc brakes.


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

muddybuddy said:


> +1 on the no discs. As far as you out growing the bike, you might try to find someone to trade sizes with you to get one that fits properly. Or if you're dead set on the discs, you could maybe trade it for a frame that already has disc mounts. Post a pic of it when you get a chance.


^^^ Agreed.

If you want a bike with discs sell the Phoenix and use the money to buy a different bike.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Ya! PM sent!


----------



## ColsonTwinbar (Sep 21, 2012)

As a collector of other styles of bikes, I wont be letting any original parts far from the bike. I am however interested in trading for a larger frame. This is a 16" and I'm 6' 1", so a little compact for me.


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## ColsonTwinbar (Sep 21, 2012)

It has roller cam on the chainstays and wtb cantilever in the front.


----------



## Guest (Sep 21, 2012)

ColsonTwinbar said:


> As a collector of other styles of bikes, I wont be letting any original parts far from the bike. I am however interested in trading for a larger frame. This is a 16" and I'm 6' 1", so a little compact for me.


I'm glad to hear that you won't be letting original parts slip through your fingers. I would keep it original and enjoy.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

ColsonTwinbar said:


> As a collector of other styles of bikes, I wont be letting any original parts far from the bike. I am however interested in trading for a larger frame. This is a 16" and I'm 6' 1", so a little compact for me.


A larger frame would be better but they are rather hard to come by. One option would be to get a super long layback post and a gigantic stem and make it work. Might not even look too terribly bad.


----------



## rammer (Mar 14, 2006)

Here are some photos of my '98 Phoenix, I'm the original owner. 13.5", 140mm rear end, Toggle Cam, 140mm New Paradigm rear hub in Gunmetal Blue.
I was told that it is the 1st or 2nd 13.5" Phoenix the made or sold. I believe '98 was the first year they did the in between sizes in 13.5" and 17.5"
Photos of photos (sorry, no access to a scanner) of the original build in '98. Also a photo of my invoice.
More recent photos at the end, plus a photo of the BB serial number, but I have since changed the fork to a 120mm SID, in black which looks much nicer and brings the handling back a bit, certainly better than the 140mm Recon fork in the photo
I don't ride it too much any more because a hardtail isn't really appropriate for the terrain where I live, but I did recently ride it in a 55 mile "mixed terrain" race/ride, equipped with Nano Raptors I held my own with the CAT 1 guys on CX bikes.
Enjoy...


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

rammer said:


> Here are some photos of my '98 Phoenix, I'm the original owner. 13.5", 140mm rear end, Toggle Cam, 140mm New Paradigm rear hub in Gunmetal Blue.
> I was told that it is the 1st or 2nd 13.5" Phoenix the made or sold. I believe '98 was the first year they did the in between sizes in 13.5" and 17.5"
> Photos of photos (sorry, no access to a scanner) of the original build in '98. Also a photo of my invoice.
> More recent photos at the end, plus a photo of the BB serial number, but I have since changed the fork to a 120mm SID, in black which looks much nicer and brings the handling back a bit, certainly better than the 140mm Recon fork in the photo
> ...


Nice. Similar set up to mine with the disc/tc combo. I'm kinda surprised a 98 has those mounts since v-brake were all the rage at that point.

That thing must be a chopper with 120mm fork. I can't fathom 140mm fork. 63mm....80mm maybe. :nonod:


----------



## rammer (Mar 14, 2006)

I'll have to check the HTA. You can argue that the longer fork gives it a more evolved geometry anyway. A longer travel fork 120mm fork will be setup for more sag than an 80mm that it was "designed" for, so the delta isn't 40mm axle to crown but a bit less, assuming similar crown and dropout height. Moving the seat forward a bit restores the STA to good enough. Old school 71 HTA are a bit overrated in my opinion, just have to setup for corners a bit better at slower speeds with the slacker HTA.
Still have an 80mm Z2 BAM, and an older '95 Judy SL with DH dampers (75mm?) but I'd rather have the more modern damping and a bit more travel for what I have to ride where I live. Paired with 2.4 tires it works OK. Lack of disc brake in the rear is a bit limiting though. When riding where you're not suspension or brake limited, it works well..but so does any bike I suppose.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

You were able to get a 2.4 in the rear? 
I stepped down a size when a 2.35 wouldn't fit in mine.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

rammer said:


> I'll have to check the HTA. You can argue that the longer fork gives it a more evolved geometry anyway. A longer travel fork 120mm fork will be setup for more sag than an 80mm that it was "designed" for, so the delta isn't 40mm axle to crown but a bit less, assuming similar crown and dropout height. Moving the seat forward a bit restores the STA to good enough. Old school 71 HTA are a bit overrated in my opinion, just have to setup for corners a bit better at slower speeds with the slacker HTA.
> Still have an 80mm Z2 BAM, and an older '95 Judy SL with DH dampers (75mm?) but I'd rather have the more modern damping and a bit more travel for what I have to ride where I live. Paired with 2.4 tires it works OK. Lack of disc brake in the rear is a bit limiting though. When riding where you're not suspension or brake limited, it works well..but so does any bike I suppose.


Good points. I guess the/my (perceived?) suggishness throws me enough to shy away from going to that much travel.

Where I'm at, I can tackle 90+% of the trails with 63mm and a 2.24 up front (with some buzzing if I come down hard enough).

What kind of terrain are we talkin' about where you live?

If you think that rear brake is limiting, I'll gladly take it off your hands.  You can weld on a rear disc tab!


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

when you initiate a turn, the weight is off the front, fork decompresses and you need to turn it like a wheel barrow.. ymmv. 
i love when i can unweigh the front and it's still nimble.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Super easy to unweigh the fork when it is choppered out


----------



## rammer (Mar 14, 2006)

Won't be converting to disc, the Toggle Cam is a big part of what makes this bike. Apparently the small sizes are real challenging for Roller Cam due to cable routing which is what let to the Toggle Cam design. I also remember another version known as Scissor Cam, but I think that was just a prototype, that version allowed the cable housing to be routed all the way to the brake. Lots of ways to tackle a basic mechanical linkage.

Most of the riding I do is on the central coast, it's pretty rocky here. When I first moved here with only that bike I ended up running 2.25 IRC Missiles, they were the only thing at the time that would hold up well enough to not pinch flat every other ride. 

I take this bike out maybe once or twice a year mainly for nostalgia, it just reminds me that a hardtail isn't well suited for most of the terrain around here. You can do it, but if you have a full suspension bike as an option to ride, that weighs nearly the same, why not just ride that instead.

On a really steep descent where you're keeping your speed in check with a lot of brake drag, you can notice your right arm pumps up more than the left. Seems to demonstrate the advantage of disc vs rim brake. I run a hydraulic disc brake up front. It could very well be the lever ergonomics though.

I'm pretty sure I've had a 2.4 Mutano Raptor on the rear of this bike..but I could be mistaken. 

So that should answer most of the questions and comments above...

Another WTB trinket I have is a RS Judy brake brace. I had broken the stock one on my '95 Judy SL. The cool thing is it can accept post mounts for a Roller Cam, I think it had accommodations for a bolt on cable housing stop, but I was running V-brakes so didn't have the cable stop. I also remember seeing the Scissor Cam brakes mounted on one of these. I'll post some photos when I get a chance.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

We've seen the scissor cam here. Maybe even this thread.


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

rammer said:


> Another WTB trinket I have is a RS Judy brake brace. I had broken the stock one on my '95 Judy SL. The cool thing is it can accept post mounts for a Roller Cam, I think it had accommodations for a bolt on cable housing stop, but I was running V-brakes so didn't have the cable stop. I also remember seeing the Scissor Cam brakes mounted on one of these. I'll post some photos when I get a chance.


I picked up one of those stops at a swap not too long ago, still looking for the brace though..


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

hollister said:


> I picked up one of those stops at a swap not too long ago, still looking for the brace though..


I'll take that for the brakes you owe me for.


----------



## rammer (Mar 14, 2006)

WTB brake bridge


----------



## rammer (Mar 14, 2006)

Recent photos of the Phoenix


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

No pedals, tricky.


----------



## ericb49 (Aug 11, 2006)

Current state of the 1994 SE - finally hung the new shoes.










WTB New Paradigm 32h hub, LASER beam rim, all NOS and Gravy built. Ti XTR 8-speed cogs.









WTB New Paradigm 28h front.









SB8 is no longer on there, Mutano 2.24 front and 2.4 rear.


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

Waiting to be build up, searching for WTB part as hubs and headset 1"
Can't wait till it rolls 

















No, not really with this Manitou, it will build up with the original fork from Steve Potts


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Nice entrance today.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

aspreti said:


> Waiting to be build up, searching for WTB part as hubs and headset 1"
> Can't wait till it rolls
> 
> No, not really with this Manitou, it will build up with the original fork from Steve Potts


Welcome! Always did like the white Phoeni best. Glad you went with a correct fork from Steve.


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

Here is my Phoenix Frame I bought in 97 and still haven't put any parts on it! LOL trying to get it done right! Looking for advice on parts etc.


----------



## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

pahydroman, guessing your PM box will be very busy, very soon.


Steve


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

pathydroman said:


> Here is my Phoenix Frame I bought in 97 and still haven't put any parts on it! LOL trying to get it done right! Looking for advice on parts etc.


'Trying to get it done right' has kept you from building it for 16 years?

IMO, full M950 XTR 8spd.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

That, except with m950 series v-brakes and levers but m730 series thumbshifters for the win.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

If it is 140mm spaced in the rear, widening a Chris King is going to be easier than finding a wide WTB (and lighter, and louder--in a good way).


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Was the 140 hub shell wider, or just a longer axle and more spacers on the non-drive side to reduce dish? IIIRC, that was the original hub approach.
FWIW, i'm running a Ti axle for a 135 XTR hub and it just barely works for my 140 rear spacing.

Also, i'm curious about what a "proper" build for a phoenix would be. Obviously WTB bearings (hubs, headset, BB if you are lucky), brakes, rims, saddle tires seem a likely choice... after that? Hrmm... i guess that's most of a bike... Suntour build. I think i answered my own question 
I'd love to find a powerband stem.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> IMO, full M950 XTR 8spd.


A little bland, but super solid. But what else was there in 97? In my opinion, thumbshifters seem too lazy for the laser-precision, singletrack-slicing Phoenix. 

Some Koski stuff (stem, bars, brakes, etc) would be cool too as the two companies were at some point (and somehow) collaborating.


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Wider axle. I have one somewhere.


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

One I bought back when I lived in the bay and thought I would of built it then. I moved and then kids and just never got around to it. Now I am getting into riding with my kids etc and would like to just build it up. 

Yes it is a rear 140mm. I also can't seem to find any numbers stamped into it? Maybe just not looking in right spot?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

yo-Nate-y said:


> If it is 140mm spaced in the rear, widening a Chris King is going to be easier than finding a wide WTB (and lighter, and louder--in a good way).


Good call.



Fillet-brazed said:


> A little bland, but super solid. But what else was there in 97? In my opinion, thumbshifters seem too lazy for the laser-precision, singletrack-slicing Phoenix.
> Some Koski stuff (stem, bars, brakes, etc) would be cool too as the two companies were at some point (and somehow) collaborating.


Ya...not a whole lot of other options out there. The beginning of the dull era of MTB. Not sure what fork to run. White? Bomber?



pathydroman said:


> One I bought back when I lived in the bay and thought I would of built it then. I moved and then kids and just never got around to it. Now I am getting into riding with my kids etc and would like to just build it up. Yes it is a rear 140mm. I also can't seem to find any numbers stamped into it? Maybe just not looking in right spot?


Serial number is under the BB. Hope you get it up and running without too much fuss. You missed a lot of years riding the best hardtail ever made.


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks just found it. #96476


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

So I take it the more WTB parts I can find for it might be the best idea for it? Does anyone know what the value of it would be? I think I need to start a large list of parts! LOL


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

pathydroman said:


> So I take it the more WTB parts I can find for it might be the best idea for it?


Its your bike - do what you want 

I just know, in general, WTB made a lot of bike components, and many of them were quite good. Around 2000, they were starting to transition into the lesser company they are today. They pretty much made everything except drivetrain bits (with the hubs being an exception). Anything "New Paradigm" is pretty good and built for the long-haul.


----------



## -Anomie- (Jan 16, 2005)

pathydroman said:


> So I take it the more WTB parts I can find for it might be the best idea for it? Does anyone know what the value of it would be? I think I need to start a large list of parts! LOL


That's the way I built my '96 Phoenix, the main exception being I couldn't find (or afford) WTB thumb shifter mounts for drop bars, so I went with M900 Rapid Fire and DKG mounts, and I had a WTB SST saddle on it but then remembered I didn't like them back then and still don't now. If you hunt around most of the New Paradigm parts aren't hard to find, you just have to be willing to fork out the cash and they aren't cheap. Sorry for the craptastic photo, I'll post a better one tomorrow when I can take it outside.


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Great looking phoenix!


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

-Anomie- said:


> That's the way I built my '96 Phoenix, the main exception being I couldn't find (or afford) WTB thumb shifter mounts for drop bars, so I went with M900 Rapid Fire and DKG mounts, and I had a WTB SST saddle on it but then remembered I didn't like them back then and still don't now. If you hunt around most of the New Paradigm parts aren't hard to find, you just have to be willing to fork out the cash and they aren't cheap. Sorry for the craptastic photo, I'll post a better one tomorrow when I can take it outside.


What's the story on the seat stay brakes?


----------



## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Fillet-brazed said:


> What's the story on the seat stay brakes?


Wasn't that an option?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

stan lee said:


> Wasn't that an option?


Woops, scratch that. Momentary memory malfunction. :\


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Momentary memory malfunction.


Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed that you HAVE a seat stay U brake phoenix...


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

GMF said:


> Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed that you HAVE a seat stay U brake phoenix...


haha!! Did I mention I haven't ridden it in months, but have ridden my Cunningham recently?  Ok, that's all the excuse I got.


----------



## GMF (Jan 10, 2004)

Well, 2 things. Sorry for insulting your bike with the "U brake" comment. Roller/toggle cam is the respectful terminology here, and I would not be able to remember everything about every bike if I had as many as you...


----------



## utahdog2003 (Jul 8, 2004)

*Still Going...*

... and recently used to illustrate the differences between good and bad twinkly garnishing. :thumbsup:


----------



## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

pathydroman said:


> Thanks just found it. #96476


 Older than mine - #96529


----------



## Grantwallace (Dec 30, 2013)

Sir H C said:


> New here, but 2 WTB Phoenix bikes. I should scan the catalogs from them too (I have two when I first was hoping to get a Phoenix):
> 
> this is a frame I got, and am still in the process of building it up. Getting a type II fork made for it:
> 
> ...


I sold you that Ti Phoenix. I'd like to buy it back. I was sick when I sold it and was unable to ride....Turn out the doctors were wrong....

I miss that bike....it should be SN:24, but I'm positive it's my old one.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Welcome to VRC. Great first post. I would like that Ti Phoenix also.


----------



## wxflyer (Apr 30, 2006)

Oh, I didn't know it was for sale. Did I miss something? In that case, I'd like to buy it too.


----------



## Grantwallace (Dec 30, 2013)

wxflyer said:


> Oh, I didn't know it was for sale. Did I miss something? In that case, I'd like to buy it too.


I dont think the guy is on here anymore....

I was bored the other day and thought I would start looking at bikes again. I was wondering what Steve Potts had and then thought, " I wonder what happened to my old bike?" I love google Image search so I typed in WTB Ti Phoenix and there it was on the first page..... I know it is mine from the fork and the fact I let Shimano use me as a guinea pig for those silly shifters.

I'll find his original Email and see if he is interested in selling it. I did have him promise me that he would offer it to me before he sold it to anyone else.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

He sure has a nice pair of frames.


----------



## wxflyer (Apr 30, 2006)

Very nice bikes. I hope you can talk him into selling.


----------



## desmodetroit (Feb 25, 2014)

*"ART" is in the eye of the beholder*

I worked in the bike shop biz for many years and built some really awesome bikes for customers. I could see the writing on the wall, with newer CNC/Billit parts ...Carbon Fiber....and Full Suspension in its infancy. So I decided to build a bike from the area from witch I came. I started building mine back in 1995, and never finished. I have Gore cables and X-Ray Grip Shifters for it, because those parts where available and new back then. The only thing that is not from 95ish is the carbon fiber stem spacer, witch will be coming off when the bike is finished.

I do like the newer WTB tires with white lettering on the side vs. mine, but again I wont to have everthing from 94,95,96ish.

Some parts that can't be seen are:

WTB New Paradigm Bottom Bracket -Ti
Velocity water bottle cage
Chris King Headset
Specialized Ti Skewers
Ti seat post collar bolt


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Not the direction I would have gone with that bike, but the foundation is great!


----------



## desmodetroit (Feb 25, 2014)

Rumpfy said:


> Not the direction I would have gone with that bike, but the foundation is great!


I didn't build this one for a rider. I did use a few parts that where in the shop showcase that I worked at, that may not have been my first choice, but do to my finances as a bike shop wrench, I did my best at the time I started the build. I had a WTB Cr-Mo Stem on it until I scored the Syncros from a friend and a Bontrager Titec handlebar with XTR front and rear derailleurs, the XTR was only on for a short time do to my Specialized M2 that I was still racing at the time needed a little maintenance. I was also building another Phoenix at this time as my new race bike, It was the dark forest green w/silver decals and a custom painted Rock Shox Judy fork.

After the build was under way, certain bike parts spoke to me as I tried to make the components flow with each other, like the TNT cranks that tapered near the pedal like the FSX Fork does at the drop out, similar to the seat and chain stays of the frame.

I would not have used Ritchey W.C.S. Ti pedals but," they spoke to me" with there gold color that matched some of the other parts that where saying I have a touch of gold on me too, like the photos show with the front hub badge....rim sticker....stem bolt washer....fsx fork logo...even the brass pivot bolts on the Paul derailleurs and the springs on the Avid canti brake arms all to go with the little decal on the left chain stay marking the painter of the frame.

I started this project knowing this bike was going on the wall. So I was more interested in some pretty parts than function, not to say that the "pretty" parts don't work great.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

desmodetroit said:


> I was also building another Phoenix at this time as my new race bike, It was the dark forest green w/silver decals and a custom painted Rock Shox Judy fork.


Too great of a bike to be a wall hanger! Got any pics of the green one? Mine started off green too.


----------



## desmodetroit (Feb 25, 2014)

Rumpfy said:


> Too great of a bike to be a wall hanger! Got any pics of the green one? Mine started off green too.


Unfortunately No. Along with many other "prized possessions"(Bridgestone X0-1...Bimota SB6R motorcycle... Ducati 900 SS Special Edition motorcycle...Ducati Elefant 900 Enduro...etc...etc ) :cryin: . I sold to pay the doctors, as my wife and I tried to have children for seven + years .

WORTH EVERY PENNY for my new "prized possessions".

I just realized as I was attaching this photo, that it may look like I"m talking about the dirt bike as-well, but I mean the girls.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Beautifull girls!! You did good.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

desmodetroit said:


> prized possessions


Nothing better than having a daughter. Definitely worth every penny!


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

My 1998 with some updates.


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

Starting to build up my Phoenix, Still waiting for Type II. In the meantime it comes with an Accutrax.

Sorry for lousy photo quality, iPhone.

If someone own WTB Skewers or a WTB SST Ti saddle and will sent to Germany, let me know.

Thank you, Alex


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

you need a shorter stem.


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

I know, still in search and high hope ...


----------



## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

*This article may be elsewhere in this thread ...*

If not, I can do a proper scan and post if interested. 
January '94 Mountain Biking.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

They say it's an all day comfort cruiser. NOt what i hear from the fans in VRC


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> They say it's an all day comfort cruiser. NOt what i hear from the fans in VRC


Mine's comfy. Would be a great all day bike (for a hardtail).


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Mine's comfy. Would be a great all day bike (for a hardtail).


didn't you say something about it being a great technical trail ride?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> didn't you say something about it being a great technical trail ride?


Yep.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> didn't you say something about it being a great technical trail ride?


They're great at everything!


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

CCMDoc said:


> If not, I can do a proper scan and post if interested.
> January '94 Mountain Biking.


Post the full article if you can.


----------



## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

laffeaux said:


> Post the full article if you can.


Will do before weeks end.


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

CCMDoc said:


> Will do before weeks end.


Searched the net for the article, but no success.
Will be great if you post the complete article.
Thanks, Alex


----------



## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

*January 94 Mountain Biking*

If anyone prefers, I can email original scans but each page is ~ 2MB.


----------



## classen (Oct 7, 2009)

if you send me the original scans I can turn them into a PDF file, apply some measure of compression, and post a link here for all to download. PM incoming with my email address.


----------



## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

classen said:


> if you send me the original scans I can turn them into a PDF file, apply some measure of compression, and post a link here for all to download. PM incoming with my email address.


Scans emailed!


----------



## classen (Oct 7, 2009)

small version (800kb) 
mtn_biking_wtb_phoenix_review_sm.pdf

big version (9.3MB) -- if you want to see all the little details of the magazine printing process.
mtn_biking_wtb_phoenix_review.pdf


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

Great, thanks.
Alex


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

Like you know, I am just start to build up my Phoenix . All works fine, since it comes to brakes (WTB speedmaster canti/Taiwan ). Does someone owns a manual for installing these brakes and will be so kind sent me a scan or know where to find it online?

Thanks, Alex


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> didn't you say something about it being a great technical trail ride?


So, reading that write up, I guess I agree for the most part. It was never a superb climber in my opinion with the laid back seat angle, but it gets up the hills just fine. Where it shines though for me is ripping through fast, fun, technical singletrack.

I think I've said it before; I wouldn't choose it as an XC race bike, but if I was racing the hardtail DH class, it'd be my first choice.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> So, reading that write up, I guess I agree for the most part. It was never a superb climber in my opinion with the laid back seat angle, but it gets up the hills just fine. Where it shines though for me is ripping through fast, fun, technical singletrack.
> 
> I think I've said it before; I wouldn't choose it as an XC race bike, but if I was racing the hardtail DH class, it'd be my first choice.


It looks similar in numbers to a Yo Eddy: fat oversize tubing, 72/71 angles, long sloping top tubes and a 41.5in wheelbase on a medium frame. Except the Phoenix has a tall head tube.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Yo Eddy is a lot more nimble. Phoenix rides more stable, esp at speed. A Yo can be more fun in some ways, but also takes more attention.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

*Hot Rod Phoenix*

I don't do many hot rod bikes these days, but here is my steel Phoenix with a 9 speed dropbar build. I was going to make a billet stem for it but I now have the materials to make an LD.








\

More details on the bike here,

1994 WTB Phoenix SE - Vintage MTB Workshop


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> I don't do many hot rod bikes these days, but here is my steel Phoenix with a 9 speed dropbar build. I was going to make a billet stem for it but I now have the materials to make an LD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have to say, I'm not diggin the carbon fork choice on that...


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Debbie Downer strikes again.

Without custom paint, this fork blends in pretty well.

Would you prefer the silver WTB brake arch on a yellow, gold, or red Judy? No thanks.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

How did you adjust the RS to take a roller cam?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Debbie Downer strikes again.


hahah! Whatever makes you happy, DC.

Doug Lexington just said the Mohagany seat does not match the Pine bar tape. I'll tell him to shut up.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Doug Lexington just said the Mohagany seat does not match the Pine bar tape. I'll tell him to shut up.


Haha! Whatever happened to that guy?


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

tductape said:


> How did you adjust the RS to take a roller cam?


WTB made a Judy arch that accepted it.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

tductape said:


> How did you adjust the RS to take a roller cam?


It was a WTB product, as shown here. It weighs a ton.

Lever Link Brake - Vintage MTB Workshop



Fillet-brazed said:


> Doug Lexington just said the Mohagany seat does not match the Pine bar tape. I'll tell him to shut up.


Tommy Donahue agrees, but calculated that at T = 123 hours of ride time the two would match in color from discoloration of the tape. A new photo will be taken at that time, after which the match will be lost forever.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> I don't do many hot rod bikes these days, but here is my steel Phoenix with a 9 speed dropbar build.


Can't say I cared much for suspension forks + drop bars, but thats a cool hotrod.

I'll repost new pictures of my hotrod Phoenix here soon. New fork is en route that'll really make things plush.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Can't say I cared much for suspension forks + drop bars, but thats a cool hotrod.


I'd gladly trade for a non-suspension corrected frame. This frame needs yet another owner.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> I'd gladly trade for a non-suspension corrected frame. This frame needs yet another owner.


Non-suspension corrected SE 140 would be ideal. That poor frame. You could always send it back to it's first owner.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Can't say I cared much for suspension forks + drop bars,


Agreed, but I got somethin in the works (not a Phoenix) that seems like it sorta gets by this aesthetic problem.


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Agreed, but I got somethin in the works (not a Phoenix) that seems like it sorta gets by this aesthetic problem.


Please don't add drops to this bike.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> Please don't add drops to this bike.


Ha! That one gets slicks and an aero bar.


----------



## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

What? No Spins? pffft



Truth be told, I actually like that JP Morgan.


----------



## s_timoshenko (Jun 30, 2007)

Adding my contribution to the thread

'93





'97


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Really like the stem and crown all matched up. Looks so clean and beautiful.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Beautifull.. but if it was mine i would build the rigid Phoenix w/ a drop bar.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

s_timoshenko said:


> Adding my contribution to the thread
> 
> '93


Green one is really nice, but I love the white one!


----------



## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

That's dangerously close to the best of both worlds right there


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

The white one gives Jeroen's a run for the money.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Different seatpost/saddle, front tire label on the same side...cantis are still cantis. I love the overall color scheme and fork/stem paint.

The green one looks like such a ripper. Nice pair up!


----------



## s_timoshenko (Jun 30, 2007)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Different seatpost/saddle, front tire label on the same side..


Planning to replace the seatpost with a replica of a WTB post with a suntour head. The saddle is a WTB designed Specialized. Also have a set of WTB classic hubs and a WTB-modifed freewheel to built up a new set of wheels. The front tire orientation is intentional. With Timbuk IIs running the front reversed performs a bit better, in my opinion. The beveled edge of the tread is leading to help it roll better and braking is against the square edge of the tread.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

s_timoshenko said:


> Planning to replace the seatpost with a replica of a WTB post with a suntour head. The saddle is a WTB designed Specialized. Also have a set of WTB classic hubs and a WTB-modifed freewheel to built up a new set of wheels. The front tire orientation is intentional. With Timbuk IIs running the front reversed performs a bit better, in my opinion. The beveled edge of the tread is leading to help it roll better and braking is against the square edge of the tread.


Yep, good eye. The Timbuk II is has the rotation arrow in the wrong direction. Not sure if that was the case on the originals as well...


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Different seatpost/saddle, front tire label on the same side...cantis are still cantis. I love the overall color scheme and fork/stem paint.
> 
> The green one looks like such a ripper. Nice pair up!


That's a WTB designed Prolong seat. Perfect.

Those tires have the rotation direction pointing the wrong way (consequentially the labels are on the wrong side), especially for the front; rear could somewhat be argued either way.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Seatpost plan sounds great! I know the spesh is WTB design, but something about that big S.... would the rear TBII reversed do much worse? Labels are a petty grievance, to be sure, but still annoying


----------



## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Plus the hardware on the brakes. 


girlonbike said:


> Really like the stem and crown all matched up. Looks so clean and beautiful.


----------



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jeff said:


> Plus the hardware on the brakes.


Not the dia compe levers. Light and pretty but shimano slr would rock those wtb cantis like nothing else.
The green Phoenix is rad.


----------



## s_timoshenko (Jun 30, 2007)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Seatpost plan sounds great! I know the spesh is WTB design, but something about that big S.... would the rear TBII reversed do much worse? Labels are a petty grievance, to be sure, but still annoying


Traction would be compromised if the rear is reverse, which would be more annoying .



jeff said:


> Plus the hardware on the brakes.


Chris DeKerf did the repaint. I sent him the brake hardware to match. I was also thinking the blue would be a bit similar to Blue that the Phoenix also was available in.



colker1 said:


> Not the dia compe levers. Light and pretty but shimano slr would rock those wtb cantis like nothing else.
> The green Phoenix is rad.


I kind of prefer the performance of the SS5 levers to the SLRs. The SS5s give more feedback and modulation, in my opinion.

The green '97 still needs some finetuning. The fork travel is set at 80mm currently, I need to bring it down 63mm. I plan to put a Chris King Classic hub with a 140 axle on the rear with a matching front. Currently, the hubs are M950s with washers added to the rear to space it out to 140. The seatpost also needs to be replaced and I'll likely swap the saddle for another SST that doesn't have the yellow kevlar reinforcing. Also the frame will be repainted. It's been already been repainted once but it's thin and there's no clearcoat. I'll keep it green but it will be a pearl or a candy to give colour more depth.


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

s_timoshenko said:


> Traction would be compromised if the rear is reverse, which would be more annoying .


You're luck you get to ride it. All we get to do is nit pick pics


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Seatpost plan sounds great! I know the spesh is WTB design, but something about that big S.... would the rear TBII reversed do much worse? Labels are a petty grievance, to be sure, but still annoying


If you follow the arrow's guidance on the rear you get increased rolling resistance, more climbing traction, and less braking traction. Most tires are marked the opposite of this; they go for less rolling resistance and more braking traction (which is what I'd prefer) so not sure what Panaracer was thinking. For the front it's a no brainer as you get poor braking, more rolling resistance and no benefits if you do what the arrow says.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

A recent (although not great) shot of my Phoenix. Unlike most of my bikes this one is not period correct, but built with purpose.
It has evolved over the years and is what I consider to be the best (vintage) bike I've ever ridden.

95 Phoenix SE suspension corrected frame, 1 1/8" HT - repainted in a dark charcoal with limited black decals.
RB modified Fox Float 80 (knocked down to 70mm)
Chris King No Logo HS
WTB Powerband stem
Easton SL carbon low rise (optional WTB Ti, but I like the slightly wider carbon bars)
ESL grips
M900 XTR brifters, ti clamp bolts
M901 XTR fd, ti pinch bolt (shaved for clearance)
UN91 XTR BB, 107mm
Suntour XC Pro Micro Drive (Sugino) forged cranks, 175mm (shaved for clearance), alloy chain ring/crank bolts
M910 XTR rd, ti pinch bolt, Carmichael pulleys
Wheelset - F: Chris King ISO, Mavic 317, WS XL14 spokes, alloy nips, R: WTB 140mm, Mavic M231CD, WS DB spokes, alloy nips
Dura Ace 11-26 8spd cassette
Brakes: WTB Toggle Cam rear, Avid Road BBDB7, ti rotor bolts
Quick Release: Salsa F/R/Seat
WTB (CC) modified Suntour XC seatpost
WTB SST Ti saddle
Tires: WTB Motoraptor 2.24 rear, 2.4 front
King SS cages
M959 XTR clipless pedals

With heavy tires and tubes its sitting at 25.75lbs. While the mullet look isn't ideal visually, it lets me run a modern fork and the Toggle Cam out back with the M900 levers.
It is otherwise a very unassuming bike, which suits me just fine.


----------



## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Great work around on the BB7/lever issue. You say shaved cranks and front derailleur? Crank/Chainstay?


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

jeff said:


> Great work around on the BB7/lever issue. You say shaved cranks and front derailleur? Crank/Chainstay?


Has to be the Road version of the BB7. The feel between front disc and TC isn't too bad either. Better modulation and feel with the Toggle Cam, but the Avid is tolerable.

And ya with the 107 spindle I needed the FD to release inward just a touch more to make the little ring. Cranks would catch the chainstay with the flex, so the end was shaved a little to clear as well.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Rumpfy said:


> Cranks would catch the chainstay with the flex, so the end was shaved a little to clear as well.


You animal!


----------



## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> You animal!


Nah, he just didn't have the juice to tighten the crank bolt enough.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

WTB-rider said:


> Nah, he just didn't have the juice to tighten the crank bolt enough.


The opposite. I tightened that thing on there so hard I lost all the clearance.


----------



## iamkeith (Feb 5, 2010)

Favor request:

Is anyone able to cite the differences in Phoenix headtube lengths (or any other useful measurements), to help determine/confirm if a particular frame is intended to be suspension corrected or rigid? I seem to find conflicting information in some other old threads, even though this is noted as the surest way to tell. Also, did these numbers change throughout the course of the run, or were the suspension models always intended for a 63mm-ish travel fork? 

I'm mostly interested in the measurements for the 18" frame, but it might be nice, if anyone has them, to include other frame sizes too, as future reference for others.

Thanks for any info...


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Yep, head tube length difference is the key for sue vs non sus. There are a few PDFs floating around. Dig through these yet?: Catalogues | WTB Archive | Retrobike


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Found the one I was thinking of:


----------



## iamkeith (Feb 5, 2010)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Found the one I was thinking of:


Thanks, Nate! That's tremendously helpful. Haven't run across that PDF before. I've looked through as many old catalogs as I could find, along with a "late model hardtails" spec sheet that someone here posted, but they all seem to list dimensions for the suspension-correct version only.

I'm still perplexed about something though, and I guess I'm eventually going to have to embarrass myself with some more information in order to ask the question. (Basically, I'm seeing something where a +/- 385mm a-c fork measurement yields the correct frame angles, on a frame that's _supposed_ to be suspension-corrected...)

In the meantime, just out of curiosity: Did happen to measure the head and seat tube angles on your green beauty, before and after you installed the type II? If so, how close do they actually come to the specified 71/72?


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> The opposite. I tightened that thing on there so hard I lost all the clearance.


RBI makes no excuses.


----------



## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

rumpfy said:


> the opposite. I tightened that thing on there so hard i lost all the clearance.


ha!


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

DoubleCentury said:


> RBI makes no excuses.


Standard process is to tighten until you strip the threads or hear a 'crack', then back off a quarter turn.....which ever comes first.


----------



## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

farmer tight


----------



## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

iamkeith said:


> In the meantime, just out of curiosity: Did happen to measure the head and seat tube angles on your green beauty, before and after you installed the type II? If so, how close do they actually come to the specified 71/72?


Haven't measured -- the Type II I have was made for a sus-corrected Merlin, but feels good. Before I installed that I had a Salsa fork (nice if a bit too flexy) and a Manitou R7 which left it rather choppered...but with 80mm of travel. I'll try to remind myself to measure the next time I swap tires out (could be a while).


----------



## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

Changed stem and mounted the brakes, which was a nightmare ....


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

what style brakes are the rear studs for a Phoenix? It has a 140mm rear (this is far from a given on a phoenix)?


----------



## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Either canti or u brake-roller cam option.


pathydroman said:


> what style brakes are the rear studs for a Phoenix? It has a 140mm rear (this is far from a given on a phoenix)?


----------



## pathydroman (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you!


----------



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

This is a pretty distinctive bike, so I wouldn't be surprised if it has already showed upon this thread or if one of you guys owns it. Saw it in San Rafael today, possibly in connection with the Appetite Seminar.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

All business in the front, and party in the back!


----------



## moonter (Oct 14, 2004)

A question for all you Phoenix owners. I'm building mine for the first time and it has brazed on cable guides under the BB. Do you run the inner cables through these and directly against the BB shell or do you use some sort of thin tube as a "guide" to reduce friction?
Thanks
Gary


----------



## bradmtb (Mar 16, 2006)

Since I was using Goretex cables, they came in a sheath that protected the cable. The set also came with guides for different applications.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

No sheath for me. 

I want to feel everything.


----------



## iamkeith (Feb 5, 2010)

I used nokian(?) cable housing liner. Same at the rear brake cable guide (pre-V brake routing). I seem to remember the housing being a pretty tight fit, but the cable itself slides nicely.


----------



## bradmtb (Mar 16, 2006)

My setup is ditto to iamkeith...never a problem.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I run mine bare back too, no sheath.


----------



## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Great guys...


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Modern Love:


----------



## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

tductape said:


> Modern Love:


Looks like quite a weapon Tim.

Every time I see a front fender on a mountain bike I want to make motorcycle noises.

Steve


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

eastcoaststeve said:


> Every time I see a front fender on a mountain bike I want to make motorcycle noises.
> 
> Steve


It has been raining here for day's. The fender keeps the mud out of the eyes. I really like those "the" fenders. They go on and off in five minutes, and they can almost be considered vintage by now.


----------



## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

Where was that taken at? I know you are close by. I am awfully jealous. I want a Phoenix more than I can possibly tell you.


----------



## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Black Diamond. The Church property.


----------



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Spotted this one while out riding today. The owner turned out to be Tony Martin.









Who is Tony Martin? Only one of the significant contributors to mountain bike culture and vernacular, starting in 1980 with the first "Ricky Cha" cartoon in the Fat Tire Flyer.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> Spotted this one while out riding today. The owner turned out to be Tony Martin.
> Who is Tony Martin? Only one of the significant contributors to mountain bike culture and vernacular, starting in 1980 with the first "Ricky Cha" cartoon in the Fat Tire Flyer.


Non-suspension corrected SE with all the WTB goodies...nice!


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## mauricer (Apr 15, 2011)

My 2 cents.

The 1998 Phoenix SE i bought from a nice Idaho fellow. Since we have a classic ride out in two weeks i wanted it ready for whatever it takes. So to test the water before i build it up as planned, i just threw existing parts at it for the moment. Can't wait to ride it though. Just like the Potts it feels like it fits perfectly already.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Getting there


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

hollister said:


> Getting there


Sexy.

Fitfinder stem peeking out?

Steve


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

eastcoaststeve said:


> Sexy.
> 
> Fitfinder stem peeking out?
> 
> Steve


Just to give an idea for where I'm headed with this


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

hollister said:


> Just to give an idea for where I'm headed with this


It looks awesome so far....looking forward to seeing progress and completion.

Steve


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## g60vw (Jun 20, 2016)

Wow! I never knew that there was a such a devoted following to the ol' steed that I've loved for 20 years. I built mine as a sort of graduation present to myself after high school. It was 1996 and a friend sold me his Med Phoenix as he made the move to the new Ibis Bow-Ti. I worked at REI at the time and tried to outfit the bike as well as I could for how little I had as an 18yo guy with a taste for the finer things. The bike is still built up almost exactly as I did it then, only having changed out the brakes and levers (I do miss the Kooka Racha levers, but the Avid Tri-Aligns not so much) and pedals as my OG Onzas finally gave up and I got some Times.

The build centered around that beautiful frame and oversize Synchro seatpost. I used a Manitou EFC front fork that I converted to coil springs and a 1' threaded steerer. Headset was the same Shimano 600 road unit that the PO had run. Drivetrain is a mix of XTR shift pods, XTR front and XT rear deralliers, and XT BB. Wheels carried over from my previous Barracuda: handbuilt Pauls F-Hub w/ Bontrager BCX-1 front and a re-flanged 36 hole Bullseye freewheel hub with an 8spd FW and BCX-2, and Salsa QRs FnR. Bar was also a carryover, my first WTB part, their old Ti flat bar w/ the plastic "bulge" spacer in the middle, Precision Billet Pro-Shift levers and Bontrager bar ends. my 23 yo Flite saddle rounds it out. This pic is with an old set of Ritchey speedmaxes, but I have since gone back to a full MTB tire with some NOS WTB Velociraptors.

Enjoy! I still do, but I really need to update the drivetrain.


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

Awesome! Thanks for sharing the bike and backstory.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

What a beautiful bike.


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## mauricer (Apr 15, 2011)

The new stem for my Phoenix is ready for shipping.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mauricer said:


> The new stem for my Phoenix is ready for shipping.


Nice! Who did the work?


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## mauricer (Apr 15, 2011)

Eric Estlund at Winter Bicycles. Had another stem and a fork made too. He knows his fillets.


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## aspreti (Apr 20, 2013)

What a bike, but I've sold it :madman:


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Always a good thread to revive.


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## Mr. Claus (Oct 5, 2015)

hollister said:


> Getting there


Hey Hollister, I didn't see this one at the VRC ride a couple weeks ago, is this one all ready to fly out of the gate? Where's this one headed, already spoken for? Not that I could afford it....booo-hooo.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I know Ibis would bend the brake levers to match the angle of hbars.. Is it doable?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Mr. Claus said:


> Hey Hollister, I didn't see this one at the VRC ride a couple weeks ago, is this one all ready to fly out of the gate? Where's this one headed, already spoken for? Not that I could afford it....booo-hooo.


Took H long enough to land one, I doubt it's going anywhere ever except the trailhead.


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## Mr. Claus (Oct 5, 2015)

That makes sense, seems like it's got all the WTB bells and whistles, Hollister I'm sure I'm not alone here, but a few pics of the finished product would be nice and envy inducing...


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Not finished yet. A few of the placeholders since this pic have been fixed, a few more to go


Please forgive the phoeni pics..


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Is the stem coming from Potts?


hollister said:


> Not finished yet. A few of the placeholders since this pic have been fixed, a few more to go
> 
> 
> Please forgive the phoeni pics..


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

jeff said:


> Is the stem coming from Potts?


No one has been able to convince him to start makin' those again.


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## mauricer (Apr 15, 2011)

Reviving this most important thread with a project in progress


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

My favorite color!
Looking forward to seeing progress at more than a glacier's pace ...


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

CCMDoc said:


> Looking forward to seeing progress at more than a glacier's pace ...


:sad:


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

hollister said:


> :sad:


soooooo....how is the gossamer Klein coming along?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Lolz!


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Headed to a new home shortly


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Pretty sure this bike has it's own thread, but here it is in the Phoenix thread.

My 1993 Wilderness Trail Bikes Phoenix SE, non-suspension corrected, full WTB catalog spec. Even the non-WTB parts are WTB collaboration items.

Before:








After:








JNT in Los Gatos








Gap in Saratoga








Wilder in Santa Cruz


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

Rumpfy,
THAT is a truly AWESOME Phoenix.


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

So I finally have one to call my own. A super gracious local who wasn't using his sold it to me and I am now in the process of redoing it. I grabbed a 31.6 Thomson Layback post since it will be a bazillion years till I find a proper Suntour/WTB one. It is a 95 so I will be swapping everything out on it to XTR with the exception of the brakes and rear hub (front hub might also get a WTB.... have a couple things sitting in the hopper that will get tried out on it).

With that said..... to match the lovely rear brake in the pic above. What front brakes would you run on it and what levers would you run?

I have a lot of options at my disposal that I could use but I also am not going to skimp on this so even if I don't have something I will buy whatever is needed to best compliment that awesome rear.

What say you all? As always love to hear your input. Thanks!!


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## SMRTIN (Dec 17, 2012)

My project is starting to pick up steam after sitting around for a year, so I'll throw it in along with the cool green one to get this thread going one.

Some of you may remember this bike from its time at Mombat.









The bike is a 1994, a 1" suspension corrected frame. My Ti Phoenix is already running a Judy so I thought I'd convert this one to a rigid configuration. Steve Potts provided a corrected Type 2 fork last year and I was just noodling along trying to figure out a stem solution to run dirt drops. Steve ended up making a series of stems a couple weeks ago and I managed to get one that matches my rise/reach requirements.

















So I stripped the frame down to send to Rick at D&D to paint the stem and fork to match. He's going to check it over while there and see if he thinks the rust issue is bad enough to address (significant rust spidering across the entire frame). Chuck at PCC rebuilt the wheels with brand new Powerbeam rims so that's good to go, rear is a gunmetal NP and front is a sort of white/pearl white NP. I'm trying to decide whether I'll run the saber cam up front now that the Judy is gone. That brake, despite some of the not so good things I've heard about it was one of the draws for the bike, along with all the amazing things I've heard about the frame itself ofcourse. So, I'm inclined to make it work, but we'll see. I'd like to have a complete gunmetal group on the bike, but that may need to wait.









Other than that I'm going to get dual cockpits setup, one RM-2 with WTB shiftermounts and DA levers and the other using a Powerband quill stem with a WTB Ti bar and M737. The bike came equipped with a press in BB setup for compact drive and with Shimano M737 more or less. So, I may keep that setup or go with an XC-PRO MD or XC-PRO/XT hybrid. Not exactly sure yet.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

datmony said:


> View attachment 1195067
> 
> 
> So I finally have one to call my own. A super gracious local who wasn't using his sold it to me and I am now in the process of redoing it.
> ...


Fantastic pickup. Congratulations.

Brake levers - Paul would be my first choice, followed by Avid Speed Dial. There are a few others of similar design from that era that would look good and work well.

Front brake - I assume it's a suspension fork and would run a V-brake while you wait to find something better. It'll give you similar feel and grab as the rear you have.

Brake levers means you're going with shifters other than the XTR Brake/Shifter combo so if you're doing that, you'll also need to think about which shifters will you be using.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

SMRTIN said:


> My project is starting to pick up steam after sitting around for a year, so I'll throw it in along with the cool green one to get this thread going one.
> 
> The bike is a 1994, a 1" suspension corrected frame. My Ti Phoenix is already running a Judy so I thought I'd convert this one to a rigid configuration. Steve Potts provided a corrected Type 2 fork last year and I was just noodling along trying to figure out a stem solution to run dirt drops. Steve ended up making a series of stems a couple weeks ago and I managed to get one that matches my rise/reach requirements.
> 
> ...


Niiiiice!

That dual bar setup is exactly the same as I had planned for my recently built Potts Ti Phoenix but in the end I chickened out and stuck with the flat bar setup.

You probably don't need that silver bike anymore. 
I'll drive down and take it off your hands. You'll have more room to work and less clutter.

Hope to see it complete and in person some time this summer.


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## datmony (Jul 12, 2012)

CCMDoc said:


> Fantastic pickup. Congratulations.
> 
> Brake levers - Paul would be my first choice, followed by Avid Speed Dial. There are a few others of similar design from that era that would look good and work well.
> 
> ...


Thanks!! Funny that I hadn't seen the reply and actually took your advice without knowing it. Used a set of speed dial levers so I could run the same levers for the rear and the vbrake front. I left the White Brothers fork on it for now but will be trying out some other forks over time. I am tossing around the idea of machining a new fork brace for a couple forks so that I can run a set of roller cams up front too.

For shifters I went with my standard, m732 thumbies. Perfect for the mud of Washington.....

Took it for a spin with the puppy last night for it's first ride. It has some kinks to still be sorted but was an absolute pleasure to ride. Definitely disappears under you.....


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)




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## onebignut (Aug 1, 2013)

hollister, that bike is just perfect!


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## shamobius (Jul 26, 2014)

I am loving my 1996 Phoenix, a great rider! Being my own worst enemy, I can't help but want to set this up a little more retro some day, even though it runs perfectly as is. Maybe once I find/order the proper fork...

20180317_115615 by shamalama88, on Flickr

20180317_115432edit by shamalama88, on Flickr


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2019)

Just finished rebuilding it yesterday. 1999 steel Phoenix...I bought it brand new from WTB. It’s built up with mostly original parts that I rode.


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## Levi Strauss (Jan 20, 2008)

hello from germany

i need help - is this cable routing on the top tube and the especially bottle boss reinforcement original ?

what do you think ? frame is from 1993 and both pics show the same frame.

best regards

mike


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## apat13 (Jun 19, 2006)

It's only original once......


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## manuelschafer (Feb 3, 2018)

Levi Strauss said:


> hello from germany
> 
> i need help - is this cable routing on the top tube and the especially bottle boss reinforcement original ?
> 
> ...


wtb member frame maybe,..
in 93 some pro(to) V-brake testing? - or back there been used with clamp fitted cable stop.

bottle bosses seem OG also as CC did em that way.. again likely custom touches to frame.


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## Proto20000 (Jan 19, 2021)

Picked up for more than I wanted to pay but a nice example of later Ti version.


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