# Best 6x6 all mountain bike.....



## CupCrazynNJ (Aug 20, 2005)

Dudes,
I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


----------



## Mr. Lumberg (Oct 2, 2005)

CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


I'd check out the Yeti 575. Just look at the reviews man, this thing is pretty sweet.


----------



## TryAndStopMe (Jan 14, 2004)

*recommendations*

also check out the SC Nomad. if you can wait for the 2006 models the Iron Horse 7 point 9 looks pretty tasty as well and you get another inch of travel on a bike that can still be built in the 35 pound range.


----------



## Wilbur (May 9, 2004)

CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


The Yeti and the Giant will not hold up to 210lbs dropping 4ft particularly if that occurs one or more times on every ride-which it should. A few choices that can take the abuse and inspire confidence over the long haul would be the SC Nomad, Turner 6 Pack, and also the Kona Coilair. All of these choices provide a platform for air or coil shocks, compatibility w/ 5-7" travel forks and the ability to fit in at Whistler Bike Park or a 24 Hour event. All can be built up as light as 30lbs or as 40lbs FR/light DH rigs. I am sure there are many more terrific choices. I have only had experience w/ the above choices. Hope that helps.


----------



## anthonys (Jan 22, 2004)

Wilbur said:


> The Yeti and the Giant will not hold up to 210lbs dropping 4ft particularly if that occurs one or more times on every ride-which it should.


Where is this written?

What makes the other choices more robust than the Yeti or Giant?


----------



## Wilbur (May 9, 2004)

anthonys said:


> Where is this written?
> 
> What makes the other choices more robust than the Yeti or Giant?


Yeti and Giant make great frames. I chose the above models based upon my experiences. If the rider had stated that he was either a lighter rider or was not dropping 4ft-I agree w/ the Reign or 575. Four feet doesn't seem high, however when you are on the saddle looking down and dropping-4 ft is plenty high, the forces to the frame, pivots, and components are brutal. However w/ a good transition or 160lb rider the forces are lower and the reign and 575 are fine. That said, a Yeti ASX w/ fox dhx air and 150mm fork or giant faith lightened up would be great options. I'm not bashing the brand (for example the SC superlight, Kona King Kikapu would not be good choices either). Based on weight of rider, size of drops and the weight of bike that the rider is after (35lbs), I would choose more towards "aggressive trailbike" vs long travel trailbike. Please contact the Yeti and Giant representatives directly and give them the scenerio. They will let you know what "MODEL" is appropriate which may well be the 575 and reign. Just my opinion and experiences. Thanks


----------



## Robot Chicken (Jun 3, 2005)

Wilbur said:


> The Yeti and the Giant will not hold up to 210lbs dropping 4ft particularly if that occurs one or more times on every ride-which it should. A few choices that can take the abuse and inspire confidence over the long haul would be the SC Nomad, Turner 6 Pack, and also the Kona Coilair. All of these choices provide a platform for air or coil shocks, compatibility w/ 5-7" travel forks and the ability to fit in at Whistler Bike Park or a 24 Hour event. All can be built up as light as 30lbs or as 40lbs FR/light DH rigs. I am sure there are many more terrific choices. I have only had experience w/ the above choices. Hope that helps.


I agree.

Just because a bike fits a category, DOESN'T mean it fits that category for everyone.

A 80 lb person could drop 6 feet all day long on a XC bike without breaking it. A 210 lb guy could snap the same bike just hitting a root hard in the trail.

Same with all mountain bikes. They are only a step above XC in durability and not intended for drops, but more for smashing through rough terrain. A 80 lb guy could huck the snot out of one over 10 feet with no problems, but a 210 lb guy will snap it on a 4 footer eventually.

Weight wise you should be looking at Freeride bikes for your All MOuntain use. A 4 footer to nice tranny can be done on a rigid bike. A 4 footer to flat or rocks is brutal even to dual suspenion bikes.

Here's some general guidlines for bike to human weight ratios:

Road biking - 10-15% of body weight

XC MTB - 15-20% of body weight

Freeride MTB - 20-30% of body weight

You should be looking for a bike that around 20% of your body weight for abusive riding. Remember, slamming into roots and rocks at full speed can take just as much of a toll on your gear as drops.


----------



## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

This has been rehashed in considerable detail over on the "What Bike to Buy" forum and it seems (if cost isn't a limiting factor too much) the consensus comes back to these:

Turner 6 Pack
Ventana X5 (with 6 inch links if you must have 6")
Intense 6.6
SC Nomad
Yeti 575 (A bit lighter duty than the others)

The Slayer, Coiler, Titus SuperMoto, and Reign are good choices too but don't get as much play time here from the "experts" .

Might also consider the Norco Six (very burly), Transition Preston or Dirtbag, etc. You're right, this category is loaded.


----------



## SHAHEEB (Dec 4, 2004)

*exactly what he said...*

this category is loaded...

along w/ the nomad is the heckler, and the blur 6.6.

the new specialized 6" travel FR bike should be looked at as well. its basically the scaled down version of the demo.

do a search, thats what its there for. this question comes up all the time.


----------



## CupCrazynNJ (Aug 20, 2005)

*Thanks guys!*

Wow. This was the first time I've actually recieved good feedback for my question. Usually people wind up kinda answering my question and then everyone argues about something stupid and unrelated haha. I really appreciate the help and I really like the turner and the Rocky Mountain Slayer now. My only problem is i work at a family oriented bike shop now that sells giant so I could get a pretty good deal on one. The faith custom build was one way I was thinking of going but i figure the rake would be too extreme to be agile at all. If you wanna comment on eitehr of my posts, please do! It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Rich


----------



## billybobzia (Jan 10, 2004)

isn't the slayer a 5 inch bike??

i ride a yeti 575 and love it but i am pretty light 160 ish...my riding partner just got a reign 2 and geez has he gotten fast quick, he loves it...the reign seems a bit burlier than the yeti but not by much...another friend has a slayer and personally i don't like it, we switched bike for a bit one day and the brake jack was very obvious...you have lots of good options, shopping is almost as fun as riding it....good luck


----------



## Robot Chicken (Jun 3, 2005)

CupCrazynNJ said:


> Wow. This was the first time I've actually recieved good feedback for my question. Usually people wind up kinda answering my question and then everyone argues about something stupid and unrelated haha. I really appreciate the help and I really like the turner and the Rocky Mountain Slayer now. My only problem is i work at a family oriented bike shop now that sells giant so I could get a pretty good deal on one. The faith custom build was one way I was thinking of going but i figure the rake would be too extreme to be agile at all. If you wanna comment on eitehr of my posts, please do! It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Rich


I would go for the 6pack or the Giant which has the maestro suspension right?

If you get the Giant, you will never have to worry about breaking a part. Even though it may weigh more, it's worth having the extra beef if you weigh a lot AND want to ride it hard. 4 foot drops are way beyond anything a AllMountain bike should be doing with a 200lb + guy.

I ride a 37 lb 6x6 bike and close to 200 lbs suited up:

Azonic Saber 19 inch frame in 6 inch mode 
Pike 130mm setting feels best for trail riding
Marzocchi 20mm hub with 2.7mm heavy gauge DH spokes to Sun MTX 34mm rim (stiffest god damn front wheel money can buy! Tacoed too many whimpy ones!)
700mm wide DH bars with 50mm rise and 8 deg sweep (us heavy guys need wide bars!!)
60mm DH stem
Cushy seat for my fat ass
Cheapo shimano crankset with upgraded BB ($40, heavy, never bent a single one, highly underrated)
Large flat DH pedals for large feet
Race face bash ring
XT rear hub with 2.7mm heavy gauge spokes to Sun MTX rim
Kenda Nevegal 2.5 DH sticke tire front (heavy)
Maxxis high roller 2.35 DH super tacky rear tire (heavy)

Most important part of making a bike large person freindly is having wide handle bars. It adds an incredible amount of steering ability to your bike in rough terrain. They also let you stick wacky landings without the bike feeling squirrly on impact.

I ride my bike as speced above on 30 + mile epic rides that go for 4000+ vertical feet. I don't even notice the heavy DH tires any more. Best thing about DH tires? I haven't had a flat in over TWO 2 ll years!!! That includes one time I smashed my whole rear rim (XC rim) into 10 parts, guess what, the inner tube was still full of air and still in use today!

I say having a flawless ride with no problems is worth lagging the heavy weight. Once those muscles get used to the heavy bike you will not even notice the weight and be able to keep up with everyone else.

Seems like I spend more time waiting for freinds to fix their XC bikes than they have to wait for me to get up a steep section.


----------



## Go Kart Motzart (Jan 2, 2004)

I think new (starting in 05) Specialized Enduro is the best of the off the shelf options. Fox 36 fork and no shortcoming on the components. Hard to beat for the money.


----------



## krank (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm about 215 give a take a few pounds. I'm lovin my Kona coiler. Beefy and climbs well.


----------



## anixi (Mar 31, 2005)

*a thought...*

How about the Ventana El Chamuco? At $1300/frame it's a relatively cheaper "boutique" frame and is very burly. You can put the F36 on it and light tires and it becomes a trail bike. here's the link:
http://ventanausa.com/frame_elchamuco.html


----------



## ronny (Apr 2, 2004)

*Too many choices.*



CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


If money is not an option and you want a tough 35lb bike, the Turner is stronger and better all around than the Reign or Slayer. It is specifically designed for what you describe.

You don't have to have six inches of travel to get what you need out of a bike. The Turner 5-spot has 5" of travel and can handle 4ft drops with ease. The same can be said of the Hecklers with the 5" rear shock. 6" of travel is the magic number this year and 5" was last years magic number. Get what works the best for you.

I was actually steered away from the Reign this year from some shops because of my weight 210lbs and riding style which is aggressive xc. ie 4ft drops. It may or may not hold up but it is better to be safe when you are hard on bikes. I have never been a big fan of RM but the Slayer has had quality control issues over the years. I am not sure what the new bikes are like.

One bike mentioned that is a proven performer for riders over 200lbs is the Santa Cruz Heckler. It has close to 6" of travel and does well in any riding application. The Heckler is also cheap these days. I no longer ride a Heckler but it remains right at the top of my list for the "one" bike that does everything pretty well.


----------



## Robot Chicken (Jun 3, 2005)

ronny said:


> If money is not an option and you want a tough 35lb bike, the Turner is stronger and better all around than the Reign or Slayer. It is specifically designed for what you describe.
> 
> You don't have to have six inches of travel to get what you need out of a bike. The Turner 5-spot has 5" of travel and can handle 4ft drops with ease. The same can be said of the Hecklers with the 5" rear shock. 6" of travel is the magic number this year and 5" was last years magic number. Get what works the best for you.
> 
> ...


Amount of travel doesn't mean jack squat. It's how the frame is made.

A 6 pack isn't good at drops because of 6 inches of travel. It's good because of the heavy duty frame and solid parts.

Transition Preston FR is a 4 inch travel frame, it can take more abuse than just about any 6 inch bike out there.

5 spot has 5 inches of travel, but is also a lighter frame and not designed for heavy riders doing 4 foot drops. It could have 9 inches of travel and my opinion would remain the same.

Hell, I can do 6 foot drops to flat with my Steelhead hardtail frame. No travel, but never going to break 7 pounds of steel!!


----------



## ronny (Apr 2, 2004)

Robot Chicken said:


> Amount of travel doesn't mean jack squat. It's how the frame is made.
> 
> A 6 pack isn't good at drops because of 6 inches of travel. It's good because of the heavy duty frame and solid parts.
> 
> ...


True, it is how the frame is made that ultimately matters.Get what works best for you is what I was getting at. I was also making a point that more travel does not always equate to a more capable bike.

The 5-spot is actually a much stronger frame than what you give it credit for. I know of quite a few spot owners, light and heavy that punish the frame and it holds up. Check out the Turner board.

I actually own a Preston fr but have not been able to test it adequately because of knee surgery this summer. With the frame weighing nearly nine lbs with the Romic, it is beef.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

This one.


----------



## nwmtb (Jan 3, 2004)

i'd second or third for a vote for some of the mentions so far on this topic. The Six Pack from Turner, and Ventana's X-5 with 6" rocker kit, and even the Ventana ElChamuco would be a decent decision.

How about one that hasn't been listed yet....Canadian made, rugged and should be able to handle some serious abuse. The Knolly Delirium , http://knollybikes.com/deliriumt.html . It would be an option on my short list.

good luck choosing !


----------



## ronny (Apr 2, 2004)

Very nice Jm, I mean Jayem.


----------



## anthonys (Jan 22, 2004)

I think folks are giving the 575 short shrift here, the frame is plenty robust for the type of riding in question. And the new kit spec for the Enduro Pro 20 is well thought out and very nicely priced.


----------



## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

https://www.knollybikes.com/deliriumt.html










Kn.


----------



## Robot Chicken (Jun 3, 2005)

K'Endo said:


> https://www.knollybikes.com/deliriumt.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, slightly overkill?


----------



## mudpuppy (Feb 7, 2004)

Robot Chicken said:


> Hmmmm, slightly overkill?


Maybe for most places...but not here...that thing is build for the shore and the rigors that come with it....


----------



## nwmtb (Jan 3, 2004)

*overkill ??*

nah....is there such a thing ??

CupCrazy's first 5 sentences went something like this :



CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think.


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

SHAHEEB said:


> this category is loaded...
> 
> along w/ the nomad is the heckler, and the blur 6.6.
> 
> ...


The Blur 6.6? That's essentially a Nomad...the LT Blur has 5.3 inches of rear travel fwiw


----------



## CupCrazynNJ (Aug 20, 2005)

was there a point to that post man? cause i can't find one lol, to all others, i appreciate your wealth of knowledge. Keep on arguing, and debating because I enjoy the insight. Thanks.


----------



## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

I think the new Fisher Fat Possum looks pretty cool.


----------



## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Jayem said:


> This one.


Would that be an ITC or TNT turner? 

Either way, what a great looking bike. Looking for a 6X6 frame myself to replace my dualie xc rig.


----------



## krank (Jan 23, 2004)

Robot Chicken said:


> Amount of travel doesn't mean jack squat. It's how the frame is made.
> 
> A 6 pack isn't good at drops because of 6 inches of travel. It's good because of the heavy duty frame and solid parts.
> 
> ...


 Ya, but then there's the wheels too. You do a big drop to flat with a big rider and no suspension and guess what's taking the brunt of the impact. That's right, the wheels.


----------



## Evel Knievel (Mar 28, 2004)

Haro 

Bullit

Coiler


----------



## ChipV (Jun 6, 2005)

I'm about your size and weight (6'3", 210 in gear) and ride aggresive XC and dabble in freeride. It seems like everyone here has covered about all the bases, but I'll throw in my .02 anyhow.

Don't worry too much about weight. At your size you could eaily use a 35+ pound bike for a do-everything machine. I have harped on this before, but bike weight really should be proportional to rider weight. At 200 lbs, a 37 lb bike would be proprtional to a 160 lb rider on a 29.6 lb bike, or a 130 lb rider on a 24 lb bike (5.4:1 ratio). 

Don't get too caught up in suspension travel, either. A well set-up 4" on a bike with the right head angle and geometry will handle anything you throw at it ( I like 67-68 degrees HA for all around use). In fact, I 'll go as far as to say that head angle and cockpit configuration are more important that travel. There is nothing wrong with more travel, just don't think bigger is better. 

As far as what specific bike- SC Nomad (Ahhhhh),Heckler (versatile, simple), Kona Coiler Air, Norco's, Turner...Heck, for the money Haro makes a nice looking single pivot. Once you figure out how much you have to spend and what you want out of the bike the filed will shrink considerably. 

I won't get into the SP/ 4-bar, horst link, blah, blah, blah suspension designs you get to choose from. I ride a single pivot (Gemini), but won't go to bat saying one is better than the other. I will say that I am a fan of platform rear shocks for multi-use bikes. There is give & take, but any tradeoffs are well worth it if you have to peddle that 37 lb monster up the side of a mountain. 

Good luck.


----------



## jfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

*Weight*

I have to agree with ChipV here. The weight of the bike should not be a big issue. I also ride a Gemini that has a platform shock. I think the thing works great. I ride the same stuff that you are talking about and I am always happy to haul a few extra pounds up a hill for the added durability and comfort that comes with it. My bike is 37lb and I am only 160. One of my buddies is 210 and has an Enduro. He has broken many parts in the last year and is wishing he went for a beefier bike. I run the heavy High Roller tires to and I have only had one flat in the last year. I don't think you will regret buying a heavy duty bike.


----------



## Ventanarama (Dec 10, 2001)

Robot Chicken said:


> Hmmmm, slightly overkill?


Not necessarily, should hopefully come in at less than 1lb heavier than the 6-Pack. It pedals really well and in the short chainstay setting it should climb very very well for its weight. Sick sick bike, I'm getting one. I took one look at it and told Noel, "put me down for 3 from the first batch". 
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com


----------



## CupCrazynNJ (Aug 20, 2005)

Man, as i read i get more and more options lol. First of all I said wait wasn't really an issue. My bike right now comes in at like 27-30 and I hate it cause I feel like I'm gonna snap it in half. I figured I wanted about a 35 lbs. bike and was really into the Reign untill i found out it comes in around 31 lbs. which strikes me as hardly beefy. I like the 6 inches of travel idea, coming from a bike with 4, the downhills and skinny ass tires on an NRS are less than confidence inducing, but more jarring and scarry haha. My whole concern is that I want a bike that I can go downhill fast and confidently, take off small drops of like 4 feet, and still have the agility of an xc bike. Ha ha, I know this is what everyone would like, but right now the Turner six pac and Rocky Mountain slayer for '06 are billed for exactly that...confused XC riders lol. No need to quibble over weight as it is not an issue, I realize that proportionally a 40 lbs. bike should be no problem for me to drive up a hill once I get accustomed to it. The first few rides are gonna be rough though lol. Keep up the debate boys....lovin it.


----------



## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

so you are getting this and the Pugsley then?


----------



## mwcet8k (Jun 17, 2004)

*Yeti 575*

My riding buddy did this to his 575 in July when we were riding in Flagstaff. The suspension link snapped in half when he landed off approx. a two foot jump. Granted, he got a lot of air on this frame before it broke, but we were both surprised that it gave way. I never saw him do anything that this bike wasn't designed for. He weighs about 190. To Yeti's credit, they warrantied the frame with one that came with the newer Fox shock (the old one had a 5th Element).


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

anthonys said:


> Where is this written?
> 
> What makes the other choices more robust than the Yeti or Giant?


I don't know about the Riegn, but as for the 575 at 210 lbs I'd be hesitant to be doing 4 foot drops on a 6 lb frame.


----------



## icegeek (Feb 16, 2004)

OK, this isn't converging. How bout we ask it this way: "What are the worst 6x6 trail bikes out there?"


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2005)

there have been lots of good suggestions. i would like to add my .02 and i hope that it helps you out.

unless you do all your own wrenching, buy something from a LBS close to home. makes it nice for repairs, supports the LBS so when you need parts fast they are there for you (hopefully), and doing so can save you money on other purchases if the shop gives you the "good guy" discount on other stuff for a while after a purchase.

i am 5'11" and a stout 205. when i went shopping for bikes i rode lots of them. Ellesworth, Giant, Trek, Specialized. i decided we (my wife and i were both buying bikes) would best be served by getting the same brand at the same store (maximize the good guy discount). we decided to go with specialized. i test rode Stumpys and they felt flimsy. then i test rode my Enduro. SWEET is all i can say. i felt so comfortable on it and the fork feels so stout. i have since done some stuff to it to get it down on weight and in some cases make it stronger (changed the XTR RD to a short cage XT with a ring guard/1x9). my bike weighs 29lbs or so now. i ride hard (3' drops to flat, jumps, etc) and like knowing that Specialized will warrantee the frame as lots of people here attest to. with this in mind i suggest you test ride a Large Enduro Pro, the 06 models come with some really sweet Sram bling.

my other suggestion is based on what i have seen with the new bike from intense. they are made right here in the town where i live (Temecula, CA). their new 6.6 would be my ultimate bike of choice. unfortunately, i have financial limitations that keep me from buying one. if you wind up with an Intense 6.6 please post pics so i can live vicariously through you.


----------



## ka0t1c07 (Aug 3, 2005)

I got a Nicolai TST. Built like a tank. The TFR is a lighter version, but still built like a tank.


----------



## ChipV (Jun 6, 2005)

Saw a pic of that Intense 6.6...OOooooooooh, that's nice. That & the new Santa Cruz serve as my new bike Porn. In three years, when they are outdated, I'll probably buy a used one.


----------



## drnich (Dec 20, 2004)

*Moment*



CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


Dont forget about the Ellsworth Moment. A little pricier but awesome.


----------



## smw (Jun 22, 2005)

billybobzia said:


> isn't the slayer a 5 inch bike??
> 
> The new Slayer is 6in.


----------



## Rooster (May 7, 2004)

*Weight Issue*

I'm 6'1" and about 200# when fully dressed (3L Camel Back, etc). I spent a year and a half in the saddle of a Gemini and loved the bike, made mountain biking a whole lot more fun. I used to tell people that it peddled great, it was an all-purpose, all-mountain bike/light FR rig. I never had a problem keeping up with any of my regular riding buddies, actually, I became faster than them. When I broadened my horizens and started riding with the local bike clubs (NEMBA), I realized that, man, I'm pushing around a lot of bike. Then I did a 24 hour race on a 4 man team and realized, once and for all, that I should be on something lighter with a more xc'ish stance. I picked up a SC Blur LT about 4 months ago and I cannot tell you what a world of difference there is. The weight of a bike made a HUGE difference. I still can't believe I'm cleaning the hills and tech stuff that I'm doing now. I'm moving up in points in my race class where I was DFL previously. And I do hammer the bike, not crazy free-ride style, but don't think twice about the 4 footers. I'll pin a lot of the credit on the engineering of the BLT, but having a lighter machine changed everything. By the way, it comes in sub-30# (large frame)


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Yours on order yet?


----------



## Guest (Oct 7, 2005)

*little pricier?*

i would say that the moment is just a bit more than "a little pricier".

you can buy an enduro, camelback, everything you need for less than you can build a moment and still have to buy all the necessary gear. don't get me wrong, if i had money flying out of my @$$ i would buy one. i don't though.

05 enduro expert you can get a deal cuz it's last years model, maybe 2900 or so?

moment frame 2500, Fox 36 RC fork 850 or so. that doesn't include ANY componenets. i would say to build it out from there 600 in wheels, 400 brakes, 50 tires, 80 headset, 300 cranks, shifters, pedals, stem, handlebar etc etc.

it wouldn't surprise me if the average moment build is way over 5K.


----------



## ChipV (Jun 6, 2005)

I have no doubt you are right about a lighter. long travel bike, like the Blur LT, being the better all around bike. I actualy had a Tomac Eli before my Gemini and I loved the bike. It was similar to the Blur in that it had 5.5 in the rear and 5 in the front, was fairly light, and ran a stable platform shock (though suspension designs are totally different & it isn't near the quality of the Blur). I would still be riding it if it hadn't cracked like an egg. 

I've also got a Jamis XLT sitting in the garage that is about to be parted it. Honestly, it is a better all-around bike than the Gemini, too, and is a 5x5. But, keeping it maintained is a constant battle- suspension bolts work loose during rides, the seat-stay brace contacts the frame, and the seat post has a tendency to slip. No one of these problems are a big deal, but I do not believe the frame will hold up to long term abuse.

So, I ride the Gemini. Not my dream bike by any means (would definatly take the Blur LT, the Nomad, Intense, or many others over it), and it IS overkill for a trail bike, but it will have to do for a while. I will say, though, the Cannondale simply DESTROYS both bikes I mentioned (Tomac & Jamis) on downhills, drops, and really gnarly terrain....you just pay a price for that everywhere else.


----------



## bullit71 (Apr 9, 2004)

*Enduro Expert 06*

Just got my 06 Specialized Enduro Expert

Highlights are:

Fox 36R fork
Fox DHX Air shock
SRAM 9.0 rear dr
Truvativ Stylo cranks w/2 rings and Blackspire Bash and chain guide
Avid Juicy 7's

I taken it for a couple rides, and so far I am really impressed. It rails like no other bike, the fork is crazy stiff, and feels good in jumps and drops 4' or less. The rear shock is super tunable, and feels great, and the brakes are killer.

What else do ya need?

My suggestion...


----------



## Redmon (Jan 12, 2004)

mwcet8k said:


> My riding buddy did this to his 575 in July when we were riding in Flagstaff. The suspension link snapped in half when he landed off approx. a two foot jump. Granted, he got a lot of air on this frame before it broke, but we were both surprised that it gave way. I never saw him do anything that this bike wasn't designed for. He weighs about 190. To Yeti's credit, they warrantied the frame with one that came with the newer Fox shock (the old one had a 5th Element).


I love my 575 but that just made me pucker up! I only weigh 170 with all my gear on so I should be safe, right? Hehe Im no jumping fool, a grasshopper gets more air than I do but I do ride some gnarly trails,

Shawn


----------



## Guest (Oct 7, 2005)

bullit...

i love mine too. 

it is a great bike.


----------



## mwcet8k (Jun 17, 2004)

Redmon said:


> I love my 575 but that just made me pucker up! I only weigh 170 with all my gear on so I should be safe, right? Hehe Im no jumping fool, a grasshopper gets more air than I do but I do ride some gnarly trails,
> 
> Shawn


 I wouldn't worry about it too much. I still think the 575 is a great bike. In my opinion, the suspension link breaking the way it did was just one of those freak accidents. If that was a weakness on the bike, I'm sure Yeti would have redesigned the link by now to be beefier.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2005)

*Intense 6point6*



CupCrazynNJ said:


> Dudes,
> I need help! I weigh 210, and I'm pretty brutal on my bike. I'm looking to get a bike i can xc on and not worry about droppin off drops of like 4 feet at most. I currently ride a giant nrs and I hate how thin and flimsy the frame is. I want something around 35 lbs. i think. The new Rocky Mountain Slayer and the Giant Reign are my top choices so far, but the Turner six pac is pretty sweet too! If any of you have an opinion, please share it, there is a lot of freakin choices and I have no idea which way to go! Custom build is also an option, so if you like a particular frame, feel free to let me know that too! Thanks guys


This can handle 210 and then some.


----------



## fireboy (Jan 12, 2004)

I loves me coiler!! primo...baby...primo....


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> This can handle 210 and then some.


What's the leverage ratio? That will really tell you if it can handle "and then some"...


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2005)

i am sure a 6.6 can handle 210 and then some. the DHX air is a good shock. my 5th element on my Enduro is fine for me. i weighed myself before a really long ride the other day and i was at 260. granted i had the wifes digital camera bag, 3L of water, 2 tubes, 2 pumps, tools, food, first aid kit, walkie talkie, and all the other random crap i carry on long rides.

i got an invite tonight to go over to intense and check out their factory (they are right around the corner from my house). i am afraid to do it cuz i don't want to go home with a new frame....


----------



## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

billybobzia said:


> isn't the slayer a 5 inch bike??
> The new Slayer is 6in.


And the slayer has a claimed weight of about 7lbs.

The 6.6 looks like a pretty sweet option if money is not a concern.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> This can handle 210 and then some.


Is that a carbon seatpost? If so, it definitley can't handle 210lbs of hard offroading. Seen too many of those broken.


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2005)

i think he was referring to the frame. stuff like seatposts are personal preference items. Intense doesn't have a "stock build" for a bike. customer specs what they want at their LBS.

i personally would have a Fox 36 on mine, none of the XTR stuff, and a Thompson seat post. i know a Thompson can handle my 200lbs.


----------



## Octane (Mar 16, 2004)

Go Kart Motzart said:


> I think new (starting in 05) Specialized Enduro is the best of the off the shelf options. Fox 36 fork and no shortcoming on the components. Hard to beat for the money.


I agree. I'm 230 and I'm very agressive rider. I recently switched from a SC Bullit to a '05 Specialized Enduro Pro, and I'm loving it. It's over 10 lbs lighter than my Bullit, and rides even nicer. I picked mine up NEW for $2500.

I haven't had a chance to break anything yet, but I have done a couple of DH events on it, as well as several long XC rides. I'm very happy with it so far.

-Brad


----------



## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

mechmann_mtb said:


> i am sure a 6.6 can handle 210 and then some. the DHX air is a good shock. my 5th element on my Enduro is fine for me. i weighed myself before a really long ride the other day and i was at 260. granted i had the wifes digital camera bag, 3L of water, 2 tubes, 2 pumps, tools, food, first aid kit, walkie talkie, and all the other random crap i carry on long rides.
> 
> i got an invite tonight to go over to intense and check out their factory (they are right around the corner from my house). i am afraid to do it cuz i don't want to go home with a new frame....


I hope you went. They are very excited about their facility and I often hear, "If you're ever in Temecula, you should drop by." I'd love to , but I don't even know where Temecula is. They're a nice bunch of guys, but those So. Cal boys sure do dress funny.... big baggy shorts, black shirts and crisp, new black hats.

Het jayem... if you're still reading, I don't give a flying fokk what the leverage ratio is.. I rode the 6.6 at 210 plus my gear and it was semi-long travel VPP perfection. Why should I care what the "leverage ratio" is? Isn't there a tech-weenie thread for questions like that?
You're Enduro is a nice bike, but howsabout that 6.6? Use restraint!


----------



## Guest (Oct 9, 2005)

my enduro is almost new still. 

i just got it dialed in perfect (1x9, bar, stem, short cage RD everything). i know that if i bought the Intense i would put 95% of the stuff off my Enduro on that bike (seatpost/clamp and headset are the two that come to mind).

maybe i'll snag a 6.6 next summer after i have been bashing the hell out of my enduro for a year 

the enduro is a sweet bike. mine now tips the scales at 30lbs.


----------



## velocipus (Apr 27, 2005)

Rivet said:


> Is that a carbon seatpost? If so, it definitley can't handle 210lbs of hard offroading. Seen too many of those broken.


Very observative Rivet, but D was talking about the frame, not the seatpost.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

velocipus said:


> Het jayem... if you're still reading, I don't give a flying fokk what the leverage ratio is..


I know you don't care, it's called ignorance.

Let me lay it out for you;

A highly leveraged bike will require excessive spring force, which means with an air shock, a heavy guy may well exceed the maximum limitation of the shock, in other words, if he is at or near the shocks PSI limit, it may blow out fairly quick. It doesn't matter how beefy the rest of the bike is, because if the shock is highly leveraged you can have a hard time making the suspension work for " 210 and then some". There are plenty of highly leveraged bikes out there that have a hard time coping with people around 230lbs or more, because of this fact.

I'm not saying the bike in question suffers from this at all, but it's always a question to ask when you are thinking about heavier riders paired up with certain bikes.

So next time you might try thinking, or at least giving people a chance, before comming out with an idiodic reply.

Maybe, just maybe, I've taken this into consideration for riders when advising them about what bike to purchase. When I was selling giants, I wouldn't just try and a heavy guy a bike and hope that they wouldn't blow out the shock, I explained the situation and why a particular bike may not make sense for them. I've dealt with this before, and I would never jump to the conclusion that a bike is "great for 210+ guys" just because the frame is beefy, that's only one part of the equation.


----------



## Guest (Oct 9, 2005)

Jayem does have a point there.

BUT

if you look at the picture posted, there is no cantilever that actuates the shock. the shock has a 1:1 relationship with the top of the seat stay on the triangle. of course there is some leverage involved, but it is no where near the leverage that you would encounter with a cantilever type (Horst and ICT designs)


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mechmann_mtb said:


> Jayem does have a point there.
> 
> BUT
> 
> if you look at the picture posted, there is no cantilever that actuates the shock. the shock has a 1:1 relationship with the top of the seat stay on the triangle. of course there is some leverage involved, but it is no where near the leverage that you would encounter with a cantilever type (Horst and ICT designs)


No, leverage depends on how much wheel travel for how much shock stroke, like if it has 6.6" of travel, with a 2" stroke shock, it would be 3.3" of wheel travel for 1" of shock stroke. It doesn't matter if it has a linkage or not, this is irregardless of the actual linkage arrangement. If it has 2.25" stroke for 6.6" of travel its leveraged at 2.93" of wheel travel per inch of shock stroke. That is a bit on the high side. Medium range is usually around 2.5-2.6:1 My own bike is leveraged at 3:1, and it's a "highly leveraged" bike, it doesn't work well with air shocks for heavier riders, and even with coil shocks real heavier riders will run into a limitation in this respect. On the other hand, low-leveraged bikes like the new foes 2:1 bikes can use very soft springs, because they are low-leverage. This means you could be cruising around with a 325lb spring where you traditionally needed around a 550lb spring for the same amount of rear travel.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> ... with an air shock, a heavy guy may well exceed the maximum limitation of the shock, in other words, if he is at or near the shocks PSI limit, it may blow out fairly quick.


How high are the upper psi limits of modern air shocks, or where does one find that info? Knowing leverage ratio is pointless unless you also know the peak pressure limit of the shock.

I wonder how high peak pressures get? The peak pressure limits must be pretty high, because once that air chamber is compressed down to a tiny volume, pressure will skyrocket. I bet even a slight 150 pound guy, if he were to huck the bike off a drop, could cause greater pressure than a 230 pounder who never left the ground. Something about Ideal Gas Law, PV=nRT. Any chemists in the house who care to run the calculation? I lost my calculator at the bus stop.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> How high are the upper psi limits of modern air shocks, or where does one find that info?


The shock manual will specify the max PSI that it can handle. For fox shoxs its around 300psi, which is simly a whole lot of spring force.


----------



## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

*Back to the topic at hand*

Love the descriptions of leverage ratio and all (which are relevant for the bigger dude), but back to the conversation. 

Lighter 6x6 "AM" bikes:
Yeti 575
Giant Reign
Enduro (air suspension)

Burlier 6x6 bikes:
Norco Six
Turner 6 Pack
Kona Coiler
SX Trail (coil suspension)

Still TBD (based on feedback about durability, etc.), but AWFULLY sexy 6x6 bikes.....
Intense 6.6
SC Nomad

Cheers,
EB

P.S. I think a bigger guy should go with a coil shock (DHX 5.0 or similar on a 6" travel bike to avoid shock issues)


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> The shock manual will specify the max PSI that it can handle. For fox shoxs its around 300psi, which is simly a whole lot of spring force.


But does that figure refer to inflated psi at rest (without load)? If the shock were inflated to even 100 psi, if you reduce the volume (compress the shock) by 4x, I think the pressure would quickly surpass than 300psi. I wonder what exactly is the change in volume is for most shocks?

If only I remembered enough Inorganic Chemistry to work with this equation accurately, but P=nRT/V, so quartering the volume would at least quadruple the pressure.

[P is pressure, T is temp, V is volume, n is the number of moles, and R is a constant.]

For now I can just play with this schematic: http://www.7stones.com/Homepage/Publisher/Thermo1.html


----------



## billybobzia (Jan 10, 2004)

Nat said:


> But does that figure refer to inflated psi at rest (without load)? If the shock were inflated to even 100 psi, if you reduce the volume (compress the shock) by 4x, I think the pressure would quickly surpass than 300psi. I wonder what exactly is the change in volume is for most shocks?
> 
> If only I remembered enough Inorganic Chemistry to work with this equation accurately, but P=nRT/V, so quartering the volume would at least quadruple the pressure.
> 
> ...


ahhh, inorganic chemistry in a mtn biking forum, gotta love it....its been awhile since the days of chemistry for me, i almost majored in it, but stopped short at the minor level...


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> But does that figure refer to inflated psi at rest (without load)?


Yes, obviously the pressures will be higher when its compressed.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Yes, obviously the pressures will be higher when its compressed.


What I meant was, "does that 300 psi max. refer to the max. pressure to which the user may inflate the shock, and that the manufacturer has calculated a tolerance based upon the change in volume of the fully compressed shock with 300 psi being the max. unloaded starting point?"

Santa Cruz recommended inflating the Blur shock to body weight for example. At my then 180 lbs., compressing the shock even to half volume would send pressures up past 360 psi.

If this is the case, then it doesn't matter how much the rider weighs as long as he doesn't inflate it past 300 psi at rest. The max. psi for failure will be a result of how much air was inflated into the shock to begin with, plus how much the shock shock gets compressed (and for completeness, the temperature of the air inside). The shock doesn't know or care whether the bike has a 1:1 ratio, a 4:1 ratio, or any other ratio. It just matters how much air was inflated to begin with, how hot it is, and how much it's being compressed. Am I wrong? Anyone?

So in conclusion, one would want to ask about leverage ratio only because it could greatly influence how effectively the shock handles the workload, but it won't be the cause of failure due to a heavy rider causing too high of pressure (unless he inflated it past the recommended max. to begin with), so one need not worry about that. Correct?

Goddammit, why the heck am I discussing suspension leverage ratios when I ride a hardtail???


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

billybobzia said:


> ahhh, inorganic chemistry in a mtn biking forum, gotta love it....its been awhile since the days of chemistry for me, i almost majored in it, but stopped short at the minor level...


Science rules! I liked it a lot. I liked school so much I ended up with a biomechanics/pre-med major and minors in chemistry, biology, and history (because liberal arts were more interesting than science). I'm sure I'll go back to college when I'm retired.


----------



## billybobzia (Jan 10, 2004)

Nat said:


> Science rules! I liked it a lot. I liked school so much I ended up with a biomechanics/pre-med major and minors in chemistry, biology, and history (because liberal arts were more interesting than science). I'm sure I'll go back to college when I'm retired.


yeah i liked it a lot too...ended up with a biology degree with a chem minor and then i became a special ed teacher so i don't use it much any more...organic chem was one of my favorite classes of all time...


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> What I meant was, "does that 300 psi max. refer to the max. pressure to which the user may inflate the shock, and that the manufacturer has calculated a tolerance based upon the change in volume of the fully compressed shock with 300 psi being the max. unloaded starting point?


The answer is still yes.


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> https://www.knollybikes.com/deliriumt.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That'd be my choice!


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Rule of thumb: Your frame should be within 2-pounds of your wheelset/tires and you frame should never weigh less than your fork.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> The answer is still yes.


Then it doesn't matter how heavy the rider is. As long as he doesn't inflate the shock beyond the max. limit, he won't "blow out the shock."


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> Then it doesn't matter how heavy the rider is. As long as he doesn't inflate the shock beyond the max. limit, he won't "blow out the shock."


Yeah, it does matter how heavy the rider is, because on a highly leveraged bike, a heavier rider will need a very high PSI, so his normal setting could be around 300psi, which I would not recommend. I had a customer that wanted to buy a giant trance from us, and he was heavy to put it mildly, and for this reason it just wasn't a good idea. He would have had to inflate it near it's max limit, which is not a good area to be in.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, it does matter how heavy the rider is, because on a highly leveraged bike, a heavier rider will need a very high PSI, so his normal setting could be around 300psi, which I would not recommend. I had a customer that wanted to buy a giant trance from us, and he was heavy to put it mildly, and for this reason it just wasn't a good idea. He would have had to inflate it near it's max limit, which is not a good area to be in.


You realize you're second guessing the shock manufacturer with that recommendation? How close to 300 psi was that customer's normal setting by the way?


----------



## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

Nat said:


> Then it doesn't matter how heavy the rider is. As long as he doesn't inflate the shock beyond the max. limit, he won't "blow out the shock."
> 
> You realize you're second guessing the shock manufacturer with that recommendation? How close to 300 psi was that customer's normal setting by the way?


I think you're missing the idea that a heavier rider requires more shock air pressure to 1) reach the recommended suspension sag for proper suspension performance and 2) prevent bottoming. If the required pressure to reach that sag point (which is a shock manufacturer recommendation) is too high for the shock to bear (another shock manufacturer recommendation) in that leverage configuration, then dissuading the customer from that bike is IN ACCORDANCE with the shock manufacturer's recommendation.

According to you, the too-heavy rider can run his shock just below the max pressure limit. But then the bike will be sagged out of the shock manufacturer's recommendation and will be bottoming all the time. Are you arguing that this is the shock manufacturer's recommendation?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> You realize you're second guessing the shock manufacturer with that recommendation? How close to 300 psi was that customer's normal setting by the way?


Would have been at least 280, up to around 300. No, I won't let someone buy a bike that's going to be putting that much PSI in it, it's asking for trouble.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DtEW said:


> I think you're missing the idea that a heavier rider requires more shock air pressure to 1) reach the recommended suspension sag for proper suspension performance and 2) prevent bottoming. If the required pressure to reach that sag point (which is a shock manufacturer recommendation) is too high for the shock to bear (another shock manufacturer recommendation) in that leverage configuration, then dissuading the customer from that bike is IN ACCORDANCE with the shock manufacturer's recommendation.
> 
> According to you, the too-heavy rider can run his shock just below the max pressure limit. But then the bike will be sagged out of the shock manufacturer's recommendation and will be bottoming all the time. Are you arguing that this is the shock manufacturer's recommendation?


I was asking if the max. psi limit given by Fox referred to the max. pressure it can handle without any compression or if it meant absolute max. pressure. It must be the former, because one could exceed 300 psi very easily.

So, if 300 psi is what Fox recommends as a max. without any load on the shock, then they must've accounted for what the pressure would reach at full compression. So as long as you're under their recommended starting point, you should be within their recommended range regardless of how much sag you run.

In terms of the psi of a closed volume, it does not matter what the leverage configuration is that's compressing that container. It can be 1:1, 1000:1, or 1:1000. The pressure is dependent on the volume of the enclosed space, the temperature of the gas inside, and quantity of gas molecules within that space.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Would have been at least 280, up to around 300. No, I won't let someone buy a bike that's going to be putting that much PSI in it, it's asking for trouble.


Did you actually check it though, or are you just figuring it would've been that high? Why would Fox give a max. pressure limit if they didn't feel the shock could handle it?


----------



## Merrimack Dave (Jan 31, 2004)

*Consider the Saber*

I have a 19" Saber and it is an amazing bike, just under 34 pounds with the Romic and definately beefy enough for you. You're not likely to get a frame of this quality at this price for much longer. Saber @ Wheelworld


----------



## phillip schweiger (Oct 7, 2005)

What about the new secialized sx trail 2 with the fox 36 and dhx 5.0. Its got 6.6 rear travel and 160mm in the front plus xo components and a sweet paint job for 3800


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

DWF said:


> Rule of thumb: Your frame should be within 2-pounds of your wheelset/tires and you frame should never weigh less than your fork.


And don't forget the most important one: Never eat anything bigger than your own head.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nat said:


> Did you actually check it though, or are you just figuring it would've been that high? Why would Fox give a max. pressure limit if they didn't feel the shock could handle it?


you're running around in circles.

Of course I checked it, but I also know that as someone puts on a few pounds of clothes, camelback, and whatever else, that PSI that was around 280-290, might be even higher, not to mention if he packed on a few more pounds. As I said before, it wouldn't have been responsible of me to recommend that bike for him, with the required pressure so close to the limit, and I have to consider other variables like the above. There are other variables too, so foxes "300psi" limit is somewhat of a ball park type limit, as a shock cycles, the leverage ratio changes, so depending on this change, you could be seeing a lot different "ending psi" on different bikes, depending on the ending leverage ratio. Another variable is frames, frame manufacturers don't always use Foxs recommendations about leverage ratio, and rocky mountain in particular is bad about this, they make/have made bikes with leverage ratios well above 3:1, which puts excessive load on the shocks.

Again, to be aware of these factors can help you choose the right bike.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Jayem said:


> Of course I checked it, but I also know that as someone puts on a few pounds of clothes, camelback, and whatever else, that PSI that was around 280-290, might be even higher, not to mention if he packed on a few more pounds. As I said before, it wouldn't have been responsible of me to recommend that bike for him, with the required pressure so close to the limit, and I have to consider other variables like the above.


Okay, if you say you checked it then I believe you. You're right that it was responsible of you to steer the heavy guy elsewhere if he was near that limit just sitting there. I'll concede on this point.
.
.


Jayem said:


> ...as a shock cycles, the leverage ratio changes, so depending on this change, you could be seeing a lot different "ending psi" on different bikes, depending on the ending leverage ratio.


I believe you're wrong here, and this is the concept I think you don't understand: a fully compressed shock is a fully compressed shock, regardless of how big the lever was that got it there. You can have a light weight on the end of a long lever, or a very heavy weight directly on top of the shock without any lever. If it's fully-compressed, it's fully-compressed. The internal psi is not dependent on the device that compressed the can, only on the volume, temperature, and moles of the gas inside. Unless a chemist, physicist, or engineer can show why this concept is wrong, I'm going to have to go by it.

I will give you that a shock has a more difficult time satisfactorily controlling a high-leverage suspension though, because it has to control a lot of wheel travel with a small amount of shock stroke, and performance will be sub-optimal.


----------



## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*I think what Jayem is trying to get at here...*

...is that the shock might not have sufficient resistance to bottoming out, _because_ the leverage ratio changes towards the end of the shock. That's exactly his point: you don't know what the end of stroke leverage ratio is and the shock can ONLY deliver so much resistance to compression, which is exactly what you say: once the shock is fully compressed, it can not generate any more resistance to oppose the force of compression.

So, in the case of an air shock with a maximum upper pressure limit (without a rider on the bike), you might get into a situation where the air shock is unable to develop enough resistance to avoid bottom out. With a coil spring shock, you just throw a higher rate spring on there (damper issues aside); that's not possible when you've reached the manufacturer's suggested maximum pressure of an air shock. This is one of the reasons that we design our new Delirium T All Mountain frame with a low 2.5:1 leverage ratio. The issue then becomes finding spring rates _low enough_ for light weight riders, since most coil spring shocks target leverage ratios around 2.8:1 to about 3:1 (the Delirium T is designed for both coil and air shocks).

As an aside, the PV=nRT equation isn't quite an accurate way of representing the force on todays modern air shocks. Certainly, any "ideal" gas follows this law pretty closely. However, modern air shocks are designed to give a more _linear_ feel than their exponetially progressive forebearers. The shock manufucturers do this by adding a second air cavity which effectively means that the pressure does NOT ramp up exponentially, but is much more linear, at least until the end of the stroke where there is usualy a bit more aggressive ramp up.

Cheers,

Noel



Nat said:


> Okay, if you say you checked it then I believe you. You're right that it was responsible of you to steer the heavy guy elsewhere if he was near that limit just sitting there. I'll concede on this point.
> .
> .
> 
> ...


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Merrimack Dave said:


> I have a 19" Saber and it is an amazing bike, just under 34 pounds with the Romic and definately beefy enough for you. You're not likely to get a frame of this quality at this price for much longer. Saber @ Wheelworld


 i'll definately second that with a big 'ol "You sho' got that right"!


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

knollybikes.com said:


> ...is that the shock might not have sufficient resistance to bottoming out, _because_ the leverage ratio changes towards the end of the shock. That's exactly his point: you don't know what the end of stroke leverage ratio is and the shock can ONLY deliver so much resistance to compression, which is exactly what you say: once the shock is fully compressed, it can not generate any more resistance to oppose the force of compression.
> 
> So, in the case of an air shock with a maximum upper pressure limit (without a rider on the bike), you might get into a situation where the air shock is unable to develop enough resistance to avoid bottom out. With a coil spring shock, you just throw a higher rate spring on there (damper issues aside); that's not possible when you've reached the manufacturer's suggested maximum pressure of an air shock. This is one of the reasons that we design our new Delirium T All Mountain frame with a low 2.5:1 leverage ratio. The issue then becomes finding spring rates _low enough_ for light weight riders, since most coil spring shocks target leverage ratios around 2.8:1 to about 3:1 (the Delirium T is designed for both coil and air shocks).


Why that certainly does make sense. Thanks for your input.
.
.


knollybikes.com said:


> As an aside, the PV=nRT equation isn't quite an accurate way of representing the force on todays modern air shocks. Certainly, any "ideal" gas follows this law pretty closely. However, modern air shocks are designed to give a more _linear_ feel than their exponetially progressive forebearers. The shock manufucturers do this by adding a second air cavity which effectively means that the pressure does NOT ramp up exponentially, but is much more linear, at least until the end of the stroke where there is usualy a bit more aggressive ramp up.


Do modern two-chamber shocks allow air to escape into the second cavity at a certain point during compression, or is it always open? Or is it under manual control, so you can adjust spring rate? Either way, it in effect is making a larger volume container, right? I think the air must still adhere to the gas law (and laws didn't become laws by being easily violable), but if you increase the volume then you lower the pressure. If you reduce the pressure, then you remain on the more linear portion of the rate curve. You would only need to compress a large volume a small percentage, whereas you'd need to compress a small volume a large percentage (and thus progressing higher up the rate curve). Does that sound right?


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Nat said:


> Why that certainly does make sense. Thanks for your input.
> .
> .
> 
> Do modern two-chamber shocks allow air to escape into the second cavity at a certain point during compression, or is it always open? Or is it under manual control, so you can adjust spring rate? Either way, it in effect is making a larger volume container, right? I think the air must still adhere to the gas law (and laws didn't become laws by being easily violable), but if you increase the volume then you lower the pressure. If you reduce the pressure, then you remain on the more linear portion of the rate curve. You would only need to compress a large volume a small percentage, whereas you'd need to compress a small volume a large percentage (and thus progressing higher up the rate curve). Does that sound right?


Nat... physics laws apart.... You're missing something. Fatigue.

Simply put a lighter rider will use less pressure in the shock and will always produce less total force and hence, less stress over the shock and its internals. Mostly the seals.

The seals will hold up some time but eventually will fail under higher pressures. The shock is designed around a pressure range where it will work most of the time. A heavier rider can send the shock out of that "design comfort zone" and reduce life cycle of the shock significantly.

Same for the frame, wheels, fork, etc.... Max loads (and Noel can give you a much deeper and precise insight than me) are much higher than normal riding and bikes/components are designed around those max stresses. But obviously, the longer you make the part work at those "peaks" or closer to, the shorter the life of the component will be.

Remember... it's not a matter of how much, but a matter of how long.

Jayem... leverage reduces life on shocks mostly because damping has to be greater to control the wheel. This puts more stress on the shocks internals... and yes, also on the seals. But you are more likely prone to blow up the shims stack or degradate the oil much faster than you'll blow seals.

Anyway what you did clearing your customer off a bike not for him was more than correct. I wish there would be more knowledgeable people like you in our LBS's.


----------



## pecka (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm impressed that no one mentioned Cannondale Prophet. I know that it's not truly 6 inch bike but does the 0.5 inch really matter? You can have either Prophet for general trail riding or Prophet MX w/ 12mm through axle in the rear and F36 in front for harder stuff. I know that Cannondale may not have the recognition of the other bikes mentioned (wonder why?) but this bike is really great all arounder.


----------



## Robot Chicken (Jun 3, 2005)

pecka said:


> I'm impressed that no one mentioned Cannondale Prophet. I know that it's not truly 6 inch bike but does the 0.5 inch really matter? You can have either Prophet for general trail riding or Prophet MX w/ 12mm through axle in the rear and F36 in front for harder stuff. I know that Cannondale may not have the recognition of the other bikes mentioned (wonder why?) but this bike is really great all arounder.


Looks like a killer bike! Only one problem..

Looks to have a falling rate spring design. DHX is pretty linear shock, so I don't know how well that bike would feel on larger hits with a big guy. Damping should feel consistant, but falling rate isn't for anything other than trail riding with no drops.

There's also the fact that it's a single pivot with no extra linkage for stiffness. Us big guys tend to flex these frames a bit too much which can cause the shock to go out quick.

It really helps to know a mechanical engineer. My engineer buddy is going to CNC out a new rocker plate for my bike's shock so I can run a longer stroke air DHX shock than the current 2.0 in for 6 in frame. I would love to get a DHX air but with my riding style and weight it wouldn't be a good idea with a 3:1 ratio.


----------



## pecka (Jul 19, 2004)

Robot Chicken said:


> Looks like a killer bike! Only one problem..
> 
> Looks to have a falling rate spring design. DHX is pretty linear shock, so I don't know how well that bike would feel on larger hits with a big guy. Damping should feel consistant, but falling rate isn't for anything other than trail riding with no drops.
> 
> ...


Well don't know what you mean bi the "big guys", I'm 6'6" @ 190lbs and my father is 6'7" @ 230lbs and we are both happy w/ Prophets - and that is w/o the 12mm axle in the rear.

As for the shock - I don't know I only ride this bike w/ Swinger 3way and Fox RP3 and these are good for trail riding. Maybe you can demo the bike and see for your self.


----------



## Free the Yeti (Apr 25, 2005)

I ride a 575, works great for me but I'm 150ish. The Yeti AS-X is their freeride bike which is a lot beefier...it could definetly handle your weight and 4 foot drops.

http://yeticycles.com/1_bikes/asx_work.html#


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Feb 3, 2004)

Now that I've got a couple weeks on the Nomad, I'd say you have to try one. Solid, works on all terrain well, can handle your requirements...31-33 pound builds are relatively easy.


----------



## mtnfiend (Feb 26, 2004)

*A First*

This is the first report I've read of a 575 failure. Interesting. Given that Yeti warrantied the frame makes me believe they feel it was a defect in that bike and not an indication of a weak design.


----------



## El Beastro (Jan 20, 2004)

FoShizzle said:


> so you are getting this and the Pugsley then?


Man Fo....don't you listen. The Pugsley is mine!!! 

You need to stop going to Step Aerobics class and getting your butt stomped by those old ladies. It's effecting your ability to read and comprehend the written English language.


----------



## bulletboy (Sep 6, 2004)

*Take that bronco out and drive it!*

That is one sweet bike though.


----------



## emzed (Aug 8, 2005)

Any thoughts on the new Norco 6, or fluid? How about Devinci?
I'm lookin' for a new ride too.


----------



## ronny (Apr 2, 2004)

I have no experience with the Norco 6 or fluid but Devinci makes an excellent all mountain frame called the Guzzler or Magma. The frames are the same but have different parts specs with the Guzzler being the entry level bike. 

The Guzzler is often referred to as the poor man's six pack in Canada but the frame quality is right up there with the big boys. The Guzzler in Canada has the FSR horst link and needle bearings at all the pivots. The needle bearings are said to better and less maintenance than bushings or ball bearing pivots. The Guzzler has 6" of travel and is beefy enough for some light freeriding. I have only tested the Guzzler a couple of times but it climbs well and is a comfortable bike. The 2005 model is also cheap right now.


----------



## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

The SXT will do you well. Its a great 6x6 from Specialized.. Great for heavy riders or riders that ride heavy, and the 4bar horst (or FSR) climbs well.


----------

