# Locktite to fix headset creak?



## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

I am posting here as a follow up to a thread I started in the singlespeed forum trying to fix a creak that is driving me mad. The short version is that I have a rigid titanium 29+ bike that has a creak coming from the headset/headtube. I went through a (very) long process of elimination and am sure that this is where the creak is from. When I pull the headset out (Chris King) regrease and replace the creak goes away for about an hour then slowly comes back. When I had the headset fitted the LBS guy told me that the headtube is slightly out of round and I presume that is why the creak is there. As a result I have tried to find someone who can re-face the headtube but no one near me can do this on a Ti frame apparently. I am in Australia so cant send frame back to manufacturer easily.

So what should I try? Things that I have had suggested to me are:
1) use the Locktite that also fills gaps (forget the product number) when installing the headset - suggested by a bike mechanic friend who said he had done this on his bikes but would not do it to a customers bike - seems like a bit of an agricultural approach but I am willing to try anything!
2) get a cheaper headset that is "a bit softer" like a Cane Creek maybe and see if that fits in the headtube better.

Any advice or other suggestions would be welcomed!

Thanks


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

the original thread is in the Singlespeed forum and is called "creaky Ti SS" but I dont know how to link to it using tapatalk.



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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

If you do use loctite I think you'll want to use the green sleeve retaining compound (640) that is used when installing bearings in frames. I wouldn't worry about it hurting anything.


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

If it were my bike, I'd look at Loctite 641, controlled strength retaining compound. I'll assume that everything still presses together and the parts are tight. The 641 is a little weaker, better suited to aluminum parts. Provided the gap isn't more that 0.002" - 0.003" or so... 

The goal is to fill the gap and prevent movement or fretting corrosion. If you don't like the idea of adhesive, a suitable anti seize may offer enough cushion for the parts you're using.

I believe 641 is one of the "global" products...

Good Luck.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

try another headset...


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

thomllama said:


> try another headset...


this. occasionally, ive heard of ck headset creaking. get a cane creek 40.


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## RSW42 (Aug 22, 2006)

Don't mean to be the downer here, but titanium frames are famous for transient noise.

Everything else checking out?


R


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

bing! said:


> this. occasionally, ive heard of ck headset creaking. get a cane creek 40.


To stay on par with the CK, go with the 110.

OP, you mentioned the headtube was out of round and you mention the tube needs facing. If the HT is out of round, what good would facing it do? If the connection between the cup and the tube is not flush, if there's extra paint or if it was improperly, lopsidedly faced then refacing it flat would be the thing to do. However, if the HT is out of round, ovalized, that would be a defect or damage and could need to be replaced. If the HT is out round, there is a miniscule gap, a place where the cup can move or rub that certainly could be the creaking cause, but that can't be fixed by facing the HT. I haven't read your other post in the SS forum, and I may be misunderstanding the description of the problem, but refacing an ovalized HT will not get rid of the creak.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

dbhammercycle said:


> To stay on par with the CK, go with the 110.
> 
> OP, you mentioned the headtube was out of round and you mention the tube needs facing. If the HT is out of round, what good would facing it do? If the connection between the cup and the tube is not flush, if there's extra paint or if it was improperly, lopsidedly faced then refacing it flat would be the thing to do. However, if the HT is out of round, ovalized, that would be a defect or damage and could need to be replaced. If the HT is out round, there is a miniscule gap, a place where the cup can move or rub that certainly could be the creaking cause, but that can't be fixed by facing the HT. I haven't read your other post in the SS forum, and I may be misunderstanding the description of the problem, but refacing an ovalized HT will not get rid of the creak.


get what your saying, but actually it can.. if faced properly the meeting surfaces of the headset and the frame "might" be enough to hold it in place enough to stop the minute movement that is causing the squeak... Usually when metal gets deformed not only does the tube get ovalized, but a small lip will raise up (or down) that will kick the faces out, causing stuff to not line up, causing the dreaded squeak..

Also with a headset, unlike BB's and such, the final height of the head tube can change, so .. you can actually take off a good bit of the tube's length if desired to get beyond the distorted section... probably not his first choice but it can save a frame ..


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

Thanks for the advice. I think Ill try the headset swap first. 

RSW42 - I am 99% sure it is the headset that is creaking as I have systematically gone over the bike and removed and regreased everything. Nothing reduces the creak apart from removing the headset and regreasing the interface between the headset and the head tube. When I do that the creak goes away for a few hours but slowly returns.

dbhammercycle - thanks for that. I think I may have overstated the amount of ovalisation. The bottom of the head tube is round but when you go to press the top of the headset in you can feel that the top is very slightly out of round. there is no visible gap its just that when you sit the headset on the top of the tube you can feel it touches two opposing sides first (if that makes sense). half a turn of the headset press and it is flush all round with no visible gap or wobble and it presses in straight. I just thought the slight ovality I noticed might be enough to cause the creak. I spoke to Forrest carver about this and he said it is not unusual for there to be a slight variation like this that occurs during welding and that it should not cause a problem.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*I disagree with Forrest.*



rusty_ss said:


> Thanks for the advice. I think Ill try the headset swap first.
> 
> RSW42 - I am 99% sure it is the headset that is creaking as I have systematically gone over the bike and removed and regreased everything. Nothing reduces the creak apart from removing the headset and regreasing the interface between the headset and the head tube. When I do that the creak goes away for a few hours but slowly returns.
> 
> dbhammercycle - thanks for that. I think I may have overstated the amount of ovalisation. The bottom of the head tube is round but when you go to press the top of the headset in you can feel that the top is very slightly out of round. there is no visible gap its just that when you sit the headset on the top of the tube you can feel it touches two opposing sides first (if that makes sense). half a turn of the headset press and it is flush all round with no visible gap or wobble and it presses in straight. I just thought the slight ovality I noticed might be enough to cause the creak. I spoke to Forrest carver about this and he said it is not unusual for there to be a slight variation like this that occurs during welding and that it should not cause a problem.


The process of "facing" a head tube usually also involves reaming as well. One usually uses a facing/reaming tool combination in one process. Welding almost always causes tube deformation and that's why the facing/reaming process is done either at the bicycle fabricator's prior to shipping or at the LBS level prior to building the bike.

I do not think there is any glue/threadlock/filler material (short of welding rod material) that will remedy this problem for you. There is simply too much force acting on the headset and headtube. You MUST have the proper headset fit and leaving an oval head tube is not appropriate.

But removing MORE headtube material will only WORSEN your situation at this point. If you were to ream it further, you may end up with a perfectly round bore (good), but it will now be too large, so your interference fit will be too loose [loose headset cup(s)].

If you could obtain a headset with a larger cup OD, then you could ream the headtube round, then press in the headset and get the proper interference fit.

See Chris King's tech talk website: Headset Tech | Chris King Precision Components

I thought King offered larger headset cup options, but I was unable to find this option on their site. Perhaps a more thorough look will confirm this.

This is something I'd have a very well-equipped LBS deal with or, better yet, let the frame manufacturer resolve the problem for you.

Short of that, you may just decide to live with it and keep experimenting with different grease and anti-sieze treatment options.


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## nov0798 (Nov 27, 2005)

Why not just get some shim stock and place it around the bearing race to take up the space.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*Not workable.*



nov0798 said:


> Why not just get some shim stock and place it around the bearing race to take up the space.


The shim stock will not stay in place, double over in places, pinch between the top of the head tube and headset cup, tear, etc. Additionally, you can't just put in a small piece to take up any looseness because then your cups won't be parallel. This will also further ovalize the head tube, making the problem worse.

Head tubes need to be properly prepared so headset cups sit parallel and the tube ends are perpendicular. A headset simply will not adjust or perform properly without it. And this is why Chris King makes is abundantly clear on his website and in his headset instruction manuals how crucial proper heat tube prep is.

There is one other option that the OP can try to increase the tightness of the cup fit, but it's not ideal. If you were to brinell the faces of the cups that slide into the head tube, this will increase the interference fit. I have never tried it and you may permanently damage a headset, but it may be worth trying.


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## nov0798 (Nov 27, 2005)

TandemBear said:


> The shim stock will not stay in place, double over in places, pinch between the top of the head tube and headset cup, tear, etc.


If properly done, it will not do any of these things.



TandemBear said:


> Additionally, you can't just put in a small piece to take up any looseness because then your cups won't be parallel.


They don't appear to be parallel now.



TandemBear said:


> This will also further ovalize the head tube, making the problem worse.


If the space is reduced, and the cup is not allowed to move then this wont happen. Continuing to allow it to move around, definitely would eventually make it worse. While its not the ideal fix, it will work.

Since the OP isn't going to send the frame back, short of machining the head tube, and placing an insert in it, or welding it up and re cutting it, im not sure what other choices he has.

You could also try Loctite 680. This stuff will hold the cup in place, BUT you will need to burn it out if you ever want to remove the cup in the future. This would most likely mess up the frame.


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

Or you could try the Loctite 641... Controlled strength, disassemble with tools, no heat...


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## nov0798 (Nov 27, 2005)

Ahh yes the 641 is a better fit in this application.


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is really useful (and more sensible than the advice I seem to have gotten at a couple of LBS's I tried!). I should also add that the noise, while annoying and something I want gone, only occurs when I am climbing or cranking out of the saddle. It is not one of those full on creaks that you hear sometimes that there is no way I could live with.

My plan this weekend is to try various things starting with the least permanent and working my way up.


1 - headset removal - super thorough clean - re-grease with different grease

if that does not work

2 - try a different headset - I know its a long shot but I can always use it somewhere else

if that does not work

3 - locktite 241 - which I am told I can remove without heating etc if required

then

4 - slight sanding/dremell of cheaper headset in tightspot

then

5 - think about more permanent options like stronger bonding agent or frame mods. Hopefully it wont come to that though!


Thanks again. Ill post what worked (hopefully) next week.



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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

nov0798 said:


> If properly done, it will not do any of these things.
> 
> They don't appear to be parallel now.
> 
> ...


Feel free to point me to a reputable frame builder or LBS who uses shims* on ovalized head tubes and I'll accept this solution. The usual fix for an ovalized steel head tube is having a frame builder add brass to the head tube and re-ream it to proper ID. I've never come across anyone using shims and I would never suggest it on a public forum, unless I qualified the suggestion with several caveats:

Is this a frame you don't really care about?
Will you check the cups frequently to be sure they're still achieving a proper interference fit?
If you're 100% fine with further damaging your frame and possibly experiencing catastrophic head tube failure, then go right ahead.

IF the OP's cool with this, then by all means, start shimming the head tube!

And BTW, an ovalized head tube does not equate to the ends being out of parallel. They MAY be. Adding shims will almost certainly result in the cups no longer being parallel. So this will add ADDITIONAL looseness to the bearing, compounding the OP's problem, which will, in turn, possibly do additional damage to the head tube. Again, not the ideal solution at all.

That being said, the proper Loctite compound may indeed solve his problem. I found a good discussion on a machinist discussion forum:
Press fit bearing hole out of round

*And I'm not referring to diameter-reducing shims like what Wheels Manufacturing makes. By "shims," I mean thin metal stock intended to fill a small gap. The shim of choice is, of course, the trusted aluminum can - as seen in Greg Lemond's aero bars during his 1989 Tour de France victory!


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

I recommend you NOT Dremel the cheaper headset! This will only introduce more problems to your fit. You want a perfectly round cup, not something with a varying OD throughout its circumference. 

If you want to ensure the headset presses in well, you could be sure there's a nice chamfer on the edge of the cups to allow them to ease into the headtube without scraping off material. You can do this safely with a Dremel or hand file. Note that Chris King adds to his reaming/facing recommendation to be sure to de-burr the inside edge of the heat tube to prevent scraping the headset cups when pressing in.

You'd be well served by using a set of quality calipers, measuring the OD of your existing headset cups and trying to find another "cheaper" headset with slightly larger cup OD. They do indeed vary. So as you shop around, you may come across another headset with larger enough cup dimensions to resolve your problem.

Good luck!


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

Thanks for that Tandembear. Good to know. I am hoping the different headset will be all I need.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Send the frame back - it should have a round head-tube for 1,400 bucks. Off course a cheap headset might just work great too.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*King oversized HS for $112:*



rusty_ss said:


> Thanks for that Tandembear. Good to know. I am hoping the different headset will be all I need.


Chris King 1 1 8 Silver Headset for Over Reamed Frame 004" Oversized | eBay

Assuming .004" oversize is enough to snugly fit your frame.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Chris King SteelSet? | Chris King Precision Components

How about this? 
I had what I thought was a creaky headset once. Turns out, it was the stem.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

rusty_ss said:


> Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is really useful (and more sensible than the advice I seem to have gotten at a couple of LBS's I tried!). I should also add that the noise, while annoying and something I want gone, only occurs when I am climbing or cranking out of the saddle. It is not one of those full on creaks that you hear sometimes that there is no way I could live with.
> 
> My plan this weekend is to try various things starting with the least permanent and working my way up.
> 
> ...


Grease is intended to make things move. Your headset is making noise because it's moving, so applying a different grease is only a band aid and the creaking WILL come back. 241 is a waste of time, it's intended as a thread retainer for threaded fasteners. What you need is a sleeve or bearing retainer. The 641 mentioned above will probably work. I keep 660 around for these situations. I've got a road bike that I've ridden the snot out of with a heat tube that is over sized and I used 680 on install. It's yet to make a creak of any kind. I consider this a perfectly acceptable repair for a problem such as yours. Although I will say I would have preferred the head tube have been properly sized in the first place. Shim stock could work but I would wait till the retaining compound failed (which is unlikely) before I went down that road.

Having the head tube buttered up with brass and re sized is the way this problem was solved 30 years ago before we had chemicals that did the same thing in 15 minutes.


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## Bear Spleen (Aug 12, 2006)

Hi All,

Sorry for the long delay in showing up, here! And thanks to Tim for directing me to these topics. First thing's first...frame creaks are like roof leaks. Extremely annoying, and difficult to locate the source of. I have personally debuilt and rebuilt a bike four times in a row only to find out that the creak was coming from my $20 clipless pedals...

We have had several reports of creaky Gnarvesters, and so far one of three solutions has worked in all but one case.

*1.) Are you using a CINCH crank with a sleeve?*
This is historically the number one source of creaks. Fully tightening a 30mm spindle bottom bracket into one of our frames with the sleeve installed will create a small lip on the sleeve, which binds against the inside of the bottom bracket shell and prevents it from turning smoothly. The bind only occurs in the last bit of torque, so not fully tightening the bottom bracket will eliminate the bind while simultaneously causing a creak due to improper cup tightness. If you're using a 24mm spindle crank, this is probably not the issue. If you are using a 30mm spindle, remove the sleeve and reinstall the bottom bracket. Removing the spindle sleeve has worked on (5) of (11) reports.

*2.) Have you checked your belt drive coupling?*
There's a good chance that you didn't even know you had this! It's a bolt which connects the drive side dropout to the chain stay. Removing the bolt allows you to install a belt on the frame for SS or IGH use. We torque these bolts properly before shipping, but it's not impossible for the bolt to loosen up over time. If you aren't using the belt drive capability, using Loctite on the bolt is not a bad idea. Oh, and grease the mating surfaces of course! Checking/greasing/retorquing the belt drive coupling has worked on (3) of (11) reports.

*3.) Are you using a Thomson seatpost?*
Our seat tubes sometimes come in slightly more teardrop-shaped than round, and due to the corduroy texture of a Thomson post this combination can create an annoying tick noise. Bolt-on seatpost clamps usually solve the issue, and copper anti-seize helps as well. If you're still having an issue, contact me ([email protected]). Swapping to a non-Thomson seatpost has worked on (2) of (11) reports.

Bottom line: don't give up! We did have one customer send their frame back after a year of use, citing a perpetual creak that no one could get rid of. After re-tightening the sliding dropout bolt, the creak disappeared and that frame is now a well-used part of our demo fleet...


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

Nice follow-up!

Yes, creaks can be very frustrating. I pulled apart my BB, chainrings & bolts, pedals and anything else only to discover my incessant creak was the replaceable derailleur hanger! Hey, at least my drivetrain was now in great shape!

Long story short, if you use grease, anti-sieze and/or locktite when assembling parts of your bike, you'll be able to get them nice and tight and will prevent corrosion and creaking. It makes future servicing a breeze. And you shouldn't have problems with stripping threads - unless you're totally ham-fisted. How many times have I pulled of a brake cinch bolt to find it BONE DRY? More times than I can recount.

Metal-metal contact almost ALWAYS needs some sort of treatment - and grease is usually the solution. I understand some engineers swear against lubricating threads. And some torque values are given for dry threads. But I also understand that a lot of thread torque values given are for maximum torque, when the threads just begin to fail. This is not what bicycle assembly entails. Almost-at-stripping threads may be the strongest way to build a bridge, but it isn't how bikes are built!

I rode with a guy who absolutely SWORE his square crank tapers not only should not be greased, but should be SPOTLESS! He used acetone on all the faces when installing his cranks. Let's just say his bone-dry cranks creaked like crazy - it was unbearable. But he was convinced he was right. Well, I've always greased crank tapers and never had a (left) crank arm taper fail. Then I came across Jobst Brandt's thorough discussion on the issue and he insists crank tapers need grease. Too bad I read Brandt's treatise well after riding with this guy! 

(He's probably still creaking into the sunset!)

Good luck.


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## Mr Crudley (Jan 27, 2006)

Can you try some Ti prep copper lube on the headset? I have a Ti frame with a BB that needs it to keep it quiet. It might help for the Ti to alloy headset interface. Regular lubes goes hard after a while and the creak will return. As for locktite, I think there has to be a better solution.

I also had to get my BB faced. The frame was painted originally. I stripped the paint which showed that the BB wasn't exactly straight. The paint must have provided enough to prevent any squeaks. 

I'm in Sydney and can point you to the LBS that did mine if it will help. They grinded down a few tools that day  

I know creaks can drive you nuts. Take your time to identify it correctly and don't give up.


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

Hi all. Well its been a while but its time a gave an update on my progress. First of all I want to thank Forrest and Davis at Carver Bikes who provide me with some really useful suggestions (both here and offline) as well as fantastic warrantee support if I chose to go down that path. 

Second, the creak is gone! (touch wood, fingers crossed etc).

I worked through pretty much all of the suggestions made earlier in the thread including those from Carver regarding the cranks, chainstay and seatpost. I also tried the copper grease Mr Crudley suggested as well as a cheaper Cane Creek HS. 

None of these eliminated the creak but it was slightly suppressed by the copper grease for a while as well as the different headset (I only tried changing the top part though but maybe should have tried both top and bottom as I now think it was the bottom creaking). Anyhow this confirmed for me that the creak was definitely coming from the HS/HT interface so I figured I would try the Locktite 641 that was suggested to me by a mechanic mate. This product is supposed to be a "controlled strength retaining compound, designed for press-fit cylindrical parts bonding that require easy disassembly". By the time I tried this I was pretty sure nothing would work so much to my surprise I jumped on the bike the next morning for a ride and there was just ...... silence 

I did a big ride that day with lots of steep SS out of the saddle climbing and it stayed silent and has ever since. I cant tell you how happy it has made me and I am just enjoying every ride of this awesome bike so much more. 

Ill post again if anything changes but hopefully the creak will stay away and since it is the Chris King HS I used dont see that there will be any issues maintenance-wise as I can still replace the bearings as required without pulling the HS. 

Thanks again for the help everyone.


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## Mr Crudley (Jan 27, 2006)

Excellent, a great result. Your ears can rest now :thumbsup:

I use a Permatex blue threadlocker which is similar to Loctite 242 - great for bolts like chainrings and disc rotors that you don't want to budge until you need to undo them. Only need a tiny dab and they seem to undo easier when you need to take them off.

I've had a noisy chainring bolt in the past and it was difficult to find. A dab of Permatex blue cured it.

I'll keep Loctite 641 in mind for the future. Might be a better solution for bigger parts that are unthreaded.

I really hate those repetitive 'clicky' noises that occur at each pedal stroke and I'll hunt them till the end of the earth :skep:

Enjoy silent riding again.

== Also Rusty, this is freaky, we have both joined in Jan 2006 and have 133 posts....Weird......


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## rusty_ss (Jan 28, 2006)

That is a bit weird Mr Crudley --- doh 134!


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