# New to Tandems - DC-9 vs. ECDM?



## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey Guys!

I've been bit by the tandem bug and have been reading up on many of the threads. You have a great forum here... Thanks for all the helpful information!

My wife and I (originally from the NW) have found ourselves in beautiful Salt Lake City, UT, and she's beginning to really enjoy mountain biking. As a long time rider, it's awesome to get out there and explore the trails together, but finding common ground (no pun intended) here in the Wasatch can be a challenge as she's less comfortable on our rocky and loose terrain. She's an ER resident, so our time together is limited and we spend quite a bit more time hiking than riding together.

We recently had the chance to borrow a friends 2010 26" ECDM for an afternoon at Park City, and we were pretty surprised at how much fun we had. I really enjoyed taking her on a few more challenging trails, and she loved the ability to see new terrain without needing to take full ownership of steering, braking, bike handling, etc. Above all, we really enjoyed the time together, and the sense of teamwork and accomplishment when we were done.

As such, with our 5-year wedding anniversary coming up, we've both decided a true tandem MTB is in our very near future. So now the fun of planning, shopping and building begins. It didn't take long to learn that Alex Nutt at MTBTandems is the man to talk to. I was able to chat with him yesterday... What a tremendous resource!

Our typical rides will cover everything from flowy forested trails to rocky and loose terrain, with considerable climbing. Switchbacks are a way of life out here. I also anticipate a few trips to Moab, Fruita, Gooseberry, etc during cooler months, so I need something that can handle some chunky terrain. I personally enjoy riding pretty fast, and I want my wife to not hate me when we're done. With that said, my wife would love to use our tandem to run around town, grab coffee, etc... you know, the stuff ladies enjoy too.

If we're going to do this, we'd like to do it right. We're trying to decide between a ECDM (27.5 or 29) vs. the DC-9, and I'd love to hear feedback from this community on which route they suggest. The DC-9 has my interest due to its value, agility and wheelbase, but I'm not sure if a 2.4" tire and thudbuster can keep my wife happy on longer rides and choppier terrain (she's a good rider, but this will be new for her). The ECDM seems like the crowd favorite for rugged trails, and I'm a big fan of Sherwood and his company. That said, I'm curious if the 29" ECDM is too long of a bike for the switchbacks out here, and I'm curious if it's the right bike to start on.

Questions:
- Does anyone have both rigs to provide a comparison?
- Any riders out there with the DC-9 in steep and technical terrain?
- Anyone dying to upgrade their current rig and need a reason to sell?
- What's the best color for the ECDM (any takers on cosmic orange)?

While we don't want to break the bank, we want this to a long-term rig and are prepared to make the investment.

Apologies for what now looks like a rather long post, and thanks in advance for your help guys!

Adam


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

*Orange! *

Is not Orange the ONLY proper color for a Tandem Mountain BIke? 

For riding around town, I built a second wheelset with suitable tires. Rides like two different bikes.

No matter what you decide, you're gonna have a blast! Can't wait to hear what you get.

Cheers

K&K


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We have an ECdM. We don't look for road rides to use it on, however we do ride to the trail and back, and have purposefully taken it to ride the Monterey Bike Path from PG to Marina (~10 miles one way, all paved). The reasons for that won't really affect your choice of FS or HT, but I bring it up to suggest that there's no real penalty in riding a FS tandem around town. Somewhat less efficient? Of course, but so is riding an off-road tandem on the road, so...

Regarding Sherwood's company, he also makes the Fandango frames for Alex, so you're good either way.

Lastly, with regards to wheelbase, I don't see a few inches difference (between brands, or between wheel sizes) making a huge difference. It's more about technique, and practicepracticepractice. Quite a lot of that will vary depending on your particular trails.

But once you start saying words like "chunky" terrain, I don't see how you get out of going with the ECdM.

As to color, I really liked Ferrari Red...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hmm... where to start?

Our first offroad tandem was a 26" ECDM. We rode that for 3 years (I think). We bought a Fandango 29" when they first came out with the thought that the bigger wheels would make for a better ride. After a year on the 29 Fandango, we sold the 26" ECDM and bought a new 29" ECDM. I'm sold on the big wheels for tandem mtb. Specifically, having a larger diameter front wheel enables you to ride over some obstacles that would be problematic on 26" wheels.

The 29" ECDM is the ticket for us. We ride in the Colorado mountains and the terrain is likely similar to yours. Although the Fandango is an great bike and likely faster in certain conditions, overall, we prefer the suspension for the types of riding that we do. We do at least on 50 + mile race per year on the tandem and we're ok with a slight weight penalty for the ride compliance of the full suspension.

I'll have to dig up some photos to share, but feel free to PM me with any questions.

I don't think you can go wrong between those 2 bikes. If you can afford it, my bias is towards the ECDM. FWIW, we have a el Gran Jeffe too, so we certainly like our off road tandems!!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

If you have been reading, you know we have owned several off-road tandems. We loved all but one and that was the 01 Cannondale, just never came to terms with the geometry.

Loved our 29 Fandango and like DS2199 we owned it while we owned our ECDM. 

Some injuries had us sell the Fandango but we still have the ECDM. An ECDM properly setup, regardless of wheel size is a great bike. For our own reasons we have kept our 26 ECDM. Many because it works well for us and I find the handling very good on our terrain. Our very good friends have a 29 ECDM. Theirs is much taller in regards to ground clearance. They also run a single crown Fox fork which allows them (and rest assured they are both strong and skilled riders) to allow them to navigate the tightest switchbacks. Our machine runs a Fox 40 and other than a few crazy tight switchbacks we normally make it but my line choice may be creative...

As for color, I would prefer polished, we have been to several events and really all the colors are nice, but there is only one color to own...maybe two Ventana Black Super Dust or see if they could go with Kawasaki day-glo green.

In regards to extra wheels and such, our friends have two wheelsets for thier 29 ECDM, but realized the pain they can be...He just bought a used 97 Cannondale road tandem and built it DI2. We do not have spare road wheels but do have a road tandem also. Our ECDM sees use to get to trailheads from home, or on Epics where pavement is involved. With the Burley trailer or Tag-A-Long, the ECDM has pulled the grandkids in the woods and to the parks. Sometimes paved, sometimes less paved. Unless really strong the ECDM will not outrun a road tandem. Use it as you mention, coffee, short hop to store etc.

All the best with it, Alex will steer you good and happy anniversary.
PK


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

Thanks for the help guys! Love the rigs, too. 

Okayfine that Ferrari red with the black 66 and MTX's looks pretty incredible. I believe I found that one when I was trolling and quickly went to see if that color is still an option at Ventana. Is that 66 at 170mm, or has it been lowered?

Love the orange (go Beavers) on your ECDN ki5ka, you guys look like you really enjoy getting out there.

PMK - what travel do you have your 40 set at, and how does it mate up with the RP3 on the rear?

My wife and I took our friends ECDM out for an afternoon ride yesterday on Great Western and Lower Big Water trails near Park City, and it really solidified the Ventana for us. We crushed some pretty rocky and rooted singletrack, and I realized that there's little chance she'd let me navigate like such a hooligan if she were getting bounced all over the trail on a hardtail... despite how great the Fandango may be. It was a great ride, and we decided over beers afterwards that we need an ECDM in our life... so now it's a matter of putting pen to paper. 

We're considering searching for a used 26", or purchasing a new 27.5" or 29". While we didn't feel the 26" hang up too much, I can only imagine how capable these bikes are with the larger wheel size. It must really cover ground well.

ds2199 - you've had both the 26" and 29" ECDM. How similar or different does the ECDM ride when build around the larger wheel? 

Anyone know if the 27.5" ECDM is based on the 26" or 29" frame, or does it have tubing and geometry unique to the build?

Thanks again - I'm looking forward to bringing my first Ventana into the garage and seeing some of you out there!

Adam


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Our Fox 40 has the travel reduced to just under 150mm. We do not use the RP23 (RP3 came with out ECDM). Ours has the rear setup with an early series Fox DHX5.0 Air with the round compression knob. If you look close at the photo, the piggyback reservoir is visible.

In regard to wheel size, I am not sure that there is one that is the king. 

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

NWfreeride said:


> Thanks for the help guys! Love the rigs, too.
> 
> Okayfine that Ferrari red with the black 66 and MTX's looks pretty incredible. I believe I found that one when I was trolling and quickly went to see if that color is still an option at Ventana. Is that 66 at 170mm, or has it been lowered?


Ferrari Red was a stock color on a different frame at the time we had our frame in for repairs. I guarantee if you call Teresa, she'll know what you're talking about and will be able to make your frame that color. They may also steer you towards the online powdercoat catalog with hundreds of colors. Maybe it's an upcharge, maybe you'll get lucky. We currently have an S&S 26" bike in blue picked from the catalot:








That old 66 was at 160mm, IIRC. We're currently running an '11 66EVO as I was noticing some flex on square hits with the old 66SL. It's not optimal for geometry, but we're a heavier team at ~370lb with gear, so...


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Same tubeset for all 3 frames. The 29'er sits about 1" higher than the 26" & 27.5". Otherwise very similar other than the difference in wheelbase relative to wheel size.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Used ECdM here...............he might ship to the states from UK.

VENTANA El Conquistador De Montanas (ECDM) ? THE Off Road MTB tandem | eBay

Ours in Champagne.........


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

switchbacktrog said:


> Used ECdM here...............he might ship to the states from UK.
> 
> VENTANA El Conquistador De Montanas (ECDM) ? THE Off Road MTB tandem | eBay
> 
> ...


Beauty!

Is the Pike approved for tandem use? What your team weigh fully geared up, and how has it performed?


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

NWfreeride said:


> snip...
> 
> ds2199 - you've had both the 26" and 29" ECDM. How similar or different does the ECDM ride when build around the larger wheel?
> 
> ...


My biased opinion is that the 29er handles better than the 26". I could easily still own a 26" tandem and I choose not to. I am also not interested in the 27.5. The wheel size difference to me is negligible. I do think that might be the best all around mtb tire size in general, but for tandems, I have no interest in giving up the bigger front wheel.

Some have said that the 29er is not as nimble. I certainly don't notice it, or maybe it is a trade off in terms of overall speed with rolling over things. The handling is not that different, it's more of what is possible to ride over (b/c you wheelie the front end of a tandem - unweighting and rolling over is the best you can do). Sure switchbacks are hard or impossible, but it's not measurably different on the 29" bike vs. the 26" wheeled bike - maybe my skills are better now than when I had the 26" ECDM?

I have thought about going back and loading up some old garmin files to my strava to see if there is any noticeable difference in terms of average time on certain trails. But I am aware that trails change and fitness changes and maybe bike handling skills improve, so it is likely not a good comparison.

I'll say it again, my personal biased opinion is to the bigger wheel. I am sure there are circumstances and terrain that could put the edge to a smaller wheel, but probably not frequently for us.

I'm sure this does not really help b/c everyone has their own opinion, that is why there are choices!


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

NWfreeride said:


> Beauty!
> 
> Is the Pike approved for tandem use? What your team weigh fully geared up, and how has it performed?


The Pike is not Tandem rated although it works fine for us on all terrain and is probably far more capable than the riders.

Fully kitted out we are around 320 pounds.


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## DrMarkR (Apr 18, 2013)

We've had the Fandango for about two years (29er). Give me a couple of weeks and our ECDM will be finished.....and I'll give you a detailed report.

Or, alternatively, you can come visit and ride both yourself!

Mark Russell
Tucson


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## DrMarkR (Apr 18, 2013)

NWfreeride said:


> Anyone know if the 27.5" ECDM is based on the 26" or 29" frame, or does it have tubing and geometry unique to the build?
> 
> Adam


The 29 frame will accept the 27.5 wheels just fine. Simply lowers the BB's to the exact clearance of the 27.5 model frame.


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## DrMarkR (Apr 18, 2013)

TandemNut said:


> Same tubeset for all 3 frames. The 29'er sits about 1" higher than the 26" & 27.5". Otherwise very similar other than the difference in wheelbase relative to wheel size.


Alex too fast on the draw.....ha!

Ignore my last post...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

FWIW, based on the spec chart at Ventanas website, the 29 has a 71.4 degree headtube angle and the 26 has a 70.4 degree headtube angle.

Capt BB on 29 is 15.57" vs 14.20" on the 26.

Chainstay is 18.19" 0n the 29 and 17.00" on the 26.

Two different wheel sizes with applicable frame dimension and angle changes to accommodate.

Both great machines, but noticeable differences when placed side by side.

PK


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

We have a hardtail 26" tandem, (Curtlo Custom steel) and we would like to get a 29" ECDM. The stoker on a tandem is not able to see the bumps and rocks that are coming under the wheels and therefore is more likely to have their full weight on the saddle at the wrong time. There is no way to properly warn them of every possible bump. 
Anyway, what I am getting at is I would recommend the 29 ECDM because of 3 things. 
1- 29" wheels roll over stuff better.
2- full suspension eases the stokers unexpected shocks better than a suspension post.
3-Better pedal clearance for fewer pedal strikes.
By the way we live in Park City, so if you would like to ride with us sometime send me a P.M.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

I can't imagine living in Salt Lake and NOT going full suspension and the EDCM. Proximity to Moab, Fruita, etc. (Idaho ain't far, either!), makes it crystal clear: EDCM. And having ridden Moab over ten + different occasions, I know how it just devours bikes and riders. Full suspension is such a must these days when riding terrain like this.

That said, I have no experience on a full suspension tandem, so take my suggestion for its limited worth. But from what I've read about here and experienced on my Cannondale, I can't imagine you'd be unhappy with the EDCM. You'd probably be fine on the Fandango, but perhaps missing something when the going gets rough. Whereas on the EDCM, I don't think you'd miss a THING!

When I ordered the tandem, I told my then-fiance, "We'll spend most our time on the mellow stuff, fireroads and the like." Yeah right. That lasted about ten minutes! Riding the challenging and rough stuff is where it's at. I earned the respect of my stoker on the road tandem, so when we ventured off road, she didn't have any qualms about doing some pretty challenging stuff. Haven't dropped her yet in 18 years!

And this is also coming from a hard-tail mountain biker. I grew up with mountain biking rigid, so I'm old school in that way. I'd be the person who would probably be just fine on the Fandango (not really), because I didn't grow up on long-travel full suspension bikes. If you and your wife have, well then I just can't imagine not going full suspension.

Now if you lived in another locale and had other aspirations for your rides (more mix of road riding and perhaps light touring), then the Fandango would probably be fine.

But nope, not for Utah. Go for it!


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

Guys,

Thanks for all of the help and the great advice.

We were ready to pull the trigger on a new 29" ECDM, when we had the good fortune of a fellow Ventana-fan and ECDM owner (*Ciclistagonzo*) offering to pass along his 2010 rig.

As fate would have it, Aaron was located within driving distance, and offered us a chance to take a quick weekend vacation and a maiden voyage on the great singletrack around Lake Tahoe. The real kicker was the chance to meet Sherwood Gibson as we picked up the bike. Totally unreal!

Here's Aaron and I getting down to business:









Our new bike is in awesome shape, and looks great in Cosmic Orange:









After an initial shakedown, we had a chance to stretch it's legs in Park City, and in Millcreek Canyon, and my stoker couldn't be happier!









We've got a fox 36 on the way, and plan upgrading a few things (wheels, tires, brakes) as the summer rolls on. The fun begins!

Thanks again to the board for your help, I look forward to posting our adventures and build here on MTBR and sharing in the community.

A special thanks to Alex at MTB Tandems. While our bike didn't come from Georgia, I've got a funny feeling that lots of parts will! 

Cheers!

Adam


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Should be a great bike from a person that lives Ventana.

Need to ask though, why make any changes. I thought I read this was a pretty solid build. Wear it out, then swap it out? 

PK


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

It's certainly a great riding bike as is... but I'd like to make a few small tweaks to get things dialed in.

I'd like a bit taller fork and stronger brakes for the terrain out here. The BB7s aren't bad by any means, but we got spoiled riding some Hope Tech V4 brakes, so we're looking for something hydraulic and quad-piston for the longer descents and faster trails. 

I enjoy building wheels, so down the road we may lace up something wider and tubeless compatible. Playing with the idea of a 27.5 front as well, but we will see how things handle with the 36 Talas in 100 and 130 settings.

More riding tomorrow - we're pumped!


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Congrats on the bike! You will love it!


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Super glad to see it out in the wild where it should be!


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Welcome to the club, love the color


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