# Frame jig - homemade?



## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

Hello,

I'm finally making my first posting on this forum, I've ridden and raced for years, and it's always been a goal of mine to build my own road or track frame. I've read and heeded the advise of others to do my searches (both here and all around the web), researched materials, and I bought the Tim Paterek manual. I've pulled a few frame jig ideas from this forum and I appreciate the owners posting them. I'm not ready to commit to the Henry James Universal jig, possibly down the line if all goes well. 

My request... will any of you that assembled homemade frame jigs be willing to share your plans? In your plans did you find things to be of little use or more importantly did you find any oversights that required modification? I'd love to see pictures! I'm always intrigued how people will use different materials and means but end up with similar final result. 

Please be fair, I know I'm a F.N.G. but I've put more than a year into planning at this point (this is not a passing fancy), and I'm not hear to take up forum space or step on toes. I value your insight and I look forward to your input along the way. I know this forum has some seriously talented cats, the last year has been great reading and following peoples' builds has been inspiring. I believe in myself and I know I can build a fine frame, I'm prepared for the eventual mistakes, but pops didn't raise a quitter!

Thanks for your time and any assistance you can provide on the frame jigs!

Best regards,

-DON-

p.s. The image consists of the Dedacciai tube set, lugs, 1 1/8th threaded fork materials, Henry James track drop out (but I have a Surly track drop with a derailleur hanger and a Columbus road too), and obviously Tim P.'s book.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Question, specifically what do you need a jig for?


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*My goal*

Thank you for the reply. I took my '89 Schwinn Circuit to a local builder to have the rear drop outs widened to 130, after talking with him about building frames, it was suggested to me to cut my teeth on a lugged frame. That way I could build my skills with cutting and filing the tubing, learn to work the torch, but not need a universal jig and everything else. That said, that does not mean that I want to exclusively make lugged frames, my eventual goal would be to assemble a complete frame from a group of tubes... something like my Chris Daily (Hershey, PA) made Smorgasbord "Country Style Buffet" made out of Reynolds 853. I'll include a couple of photos.

Thanks!


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

people have shared plans. There are plans on Instructables


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Here are some pics of my first jig to give you some ideas, remember to be resourceful, use lots of patience, and a good level...............:thumbsup:


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

*You've probably seen these before...*

but I'll put them here again. At 2 years and 24 frames in, I still think I'm a FNG. I will say though that you should keep things as simple as possible. Let the process drive the tools and *do not* let the tools drive your process. It's easy to get overwhelmed just by the tools.

A nice flat plate and some simple machining will get you what I have. Do not have access to a machinist? Google Alex Meade...he's a framebuilder that also sells tubing blocks and assorted framebuilding tools.

Good luck and have fun!

B


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Smokebikes said:


> Here are some pics of my first jig to give you some ideas, remember to be resourceful, use lots of patience, and a good level...............:thumbsup:


Love the fixturing there. Good job on that.

I will mention and I mean no personal disrespect but IMHO Mapp torches for framebuilding belong in the trash dump.

I maybe have been lucky but I personally spent about 200 dollars for a complete brazing setup including a new Meco aviator jet. It is an absolute necessity to have a good torch.

Why? Mapp does not generate enough heat and penetration is almost always compromised. So, what does the brazer do? They go dabbing all over the edges as is shown in the pictures. Seems like it should work but it shear is about 10% of what it should be.

IMHO one does not need fancy fixtures. One absolutely needs a decent torch. It is cheap, useful and with proper use guarantees a solid but more importantly SAFE joint.


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## 3wfab (Aug 1, 2010)

here is a "80/20" jig. Stuff isn't real accurate but works well for 'production'. I don't like doing one at a time with this stuff.
Also helps using a reference to setup this kind of jig. Really, more important is having the ability to accurately measure than it is to have a jig. I've often thought of using 'tooling' for specific joints in lieu of placing tubes in a jig but.....here are some shots.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

unterhausen said:


> people have shared plans. There are plans on Instructables


Those are mine:

http://www.instructables.com/member/drwelby/

and FNGs feel free to PM me questions, I don't mind.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

MDEnvEngr said:


> but I'll put them here again. At 2 years and 24 frames in, I still think I'm a FNG. I will say though that you should keep things as simple as possible. Let the process drive the tools and *do not* let the tools drive your process. It's easy to get overwhelmed just by the tools.


Every time I see that jig it warms my cockles. What are you using for fixturing the back ends of your frames?


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## Smudgemo (Nov 30, 2005)

Don't worry about a jig just yet. Just get some cheap Vee Blocks from Enco or KBC and shim them like Tim shows in the book. Cereal box shims work great. Everything I've built so far has been w/o a jig except for two forks. dr.welby also has an 80/20 solution for that, but I built my own. 

I'd also suggest that right after Dave's suggestion of a good torch, you spend some time pulling silver through practice lugs or slip-fit tubes (like 1" OD and 1 1/8" x .058. You'll be using up silver, but not wasting your good lugs and tubes. You really need to try it to see how it works.

That being said, I built a simple version of Doug Fattic's jig that I haven't used yet. You can search "sizing board" for more info here or on the Frame Forum for photos and info. Doug has even been so kind as to offer suggestions on how to make one if you don't have much machine shop access. I think I have the plans on Sketchup if you want them.

Now that I think of it, this might be a good topic on the Frame Forum. Seems my wife accidentally overstocked the pantry with popcorn, and we should use it up.


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

dr.welby said:


> Those are mine:
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/member/drwelby/
> 
> and FNGs feel free to PM me questions, I don't mind.


Hello Dr. Welby,

Unterhausen (thanks for the reply and link) had mentioned plans on instructables.com, I was fortunate enough to have happened onto your plans this week for the first time. Thank you for those design postings and I appreciate your willingness to offer a new guy some help. I'm sure I will take you up on your PM offer fairly soon.

Thanks again,

-DON-


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

MDEnvEngr said:


> but I'll put them here again. At 2 years and 24 frames in, I still think I'm a FNG. I will say though that you should keep things as simple as possible. Let the process drive the tools and *do not* let the tools drive your process. It's easy to get overwhelmed just by the tools.
> 
> A nice flat plate and some simple machining will get you what I have. Do not have access to a machinist? Google Alex Meade...he's a framebuilder that also sells tubing blocks and assorted framebuilding tools.
> 
> ...


Hey B (MDEnvEngr),

Thanks for the pics, after looking at Smokebikes' images and going back over Dr. Welby's contributions, I was pleased to see an alternative set up. Good point on not letting the tools drive the process, I was initially overwhelmed by the Paterek book with regard to the tool set up. It seemed like a massive amount of tooling for an an initial shop set up. Also, thanks for suggesting Alex Meade, I checked out his site and liked a number of things (threaded single speed drop out). I appreciate you taking the time, thanks!

-DON-

p.s. I'll try not to lose sight of the "fun" aspect, I suspect there are times ahead that will be anything but fun... that said, it must feel good to have 24 of these babies under your belt!


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

Smudgemo said:


> Don't worry about a jig just yet. Just get some cheap Vee Blocks from Enco or KBC and shim them like Tim shows in the book. Cereal box shims work great. Everything I've built so far has been w/o a jig except for two forks. dr.welby also has an 80/20 solution for that, but I built my own.
> 
> I'd also suggest that right after Dave's suggestion of a good torch, you spend some time pulling silver through practice lugs or slip-fit tubes (like 1" OD and 1 1/8" x .058. You'll be using up silver, but not wasting your good lugs and tubes. You really need to try it to see how it works.
> 
> ...


Hi Ryan (Smudgemo),

I watched some vids that Doug Fattic had posted on youtube yesterday, I wonder how much his frame building course costs? I would guess that it cost quite a bit of dough! As far as the Fattig jig, sure, I'd like to have those plans if you can get them without much trouble. I did grab your Show & Tell Friday thread posting from a few months back:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=635452

Your set up seems like the best cost effective way for me to get started. I'm going to have to look into the costs of Dr. Welby's jig, an upright frame jig is what I want down the line. Your sizing board seems perfect for where I am at this point. Did you brace the 1 1/2" particleboard? What about a piece of steel plate to skin the top surface? I do have some limited access to a machine shop and fabricator, I'm hoping to be able to make some of the tooling instead of buying everything.

Thanks for the help!

-DON-


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## Smudgemo (Nov 30, 2005)

It's just two pieces of particle board glued together on a flat surface. A metal surface would be okay, but starts to defeat the idea of cheapness. I'm only tacking in it, and aluminum foil or a plumber's cloth will protect the wood. I haven't done more than a couple of joins in it, but it seems to be fine for now. I sorta wish that I'd have made more clearance between the tubes and board, but it's okay as is. 

The plan is in 2D because I didn't care about modeling any thicknesses, so don't expect anything fancy. PM your email address if you want it. Just to be clear, this isn't a plan for Doug's fixture, it's just what I came up with based on his. I'd suggest rereading his thoughts on it, especially for setting the fork rake.


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

What someone uses to hold tubes in the right relationship to each other somewhere in the building process depends on a person's philosophy (braze in or out of the fixture, etc). Personally I prefer the British system of a "sizing board" used by many classic European builders. This is where an outside rectangle (like a "picture frame") holds the 4 flat pieces that represent the main tubes. You can see a picture if this idea in Smudgemo's post (nice work!). The bottom piece represents the wheel base line and the rest of the outer structure holds the head and seat tube pieces with marks at their chosen angle. It does away with the need for a full scale drawing. It also makes it easy to check the accuracy of miters and adjust something (either the miter or fixture) if anything got a little off. Its simplicity in both design and ease of construction is why I believe many British builders used one. It is the style I would recommend to someone just starting out because they aren’t that hard to make and are easy to understand.

I only tack in this fixture and braze the frame free after aligning it on a surface plate. I put the back end on using an adjustable T tool (easy enough to make), a true wheel and a straight edge with an adjustable screw. This gives me the most accurate results even compared with my expensive Anvil Master or Bike Machinery Hydra fixtures. Using commercial fixtures does not guarantee a rear wheel will accurately center, it just speeds things up. I know there is little chance a homemade fixture will get the rear triangle precisely right if a frame is brazed in one.

Now I've taken this concept and added many bells and whistles to the ones I have laser cut and etched out of stainless steel. Almost every possible dimension (seat/head angles, tube lengths, rake and drop, even straddle height) can be set with markings and dodads on the fixture. The V blocks that orient the tubes are held off of the flat surface it rests on with adjustable height pieces. That means that the position accuracy of the tubes is oriented to the flat surface and not the fixture itself. That greatly reduces the precision (and therefore cost) required in a fixture. Both Mdenvengr and 3wfab use the some concept in their fixturing (they orient the plane of the tubes with the supporting table and hold them there with the fixture rather than rely on the fixture itself for alignment accuracy). I’ve got pictures of mine on our ukrainebicycletours website. I think my assistant Herbie has some on his flickr page under Helm Cycles.

One of the most important features I built into my fixtures is the ability to design a road frame using the actual seat/seatpost and stem the customer has selected. Markings on the fixture allow me to adjust the saddle height and setback. I place the stem in its relationship to the seat and move the pieces that represent the tubes to make the design and part relationships come together. This literal approach to building reduces the chance for mistakes that might creep in when things are more abstract.


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*Thanks ! ! !*

MTBR frame building forum -

Thank you to everyone who took the time to contribute a comment, suggestion, photo, or advise... I genuinely appreciate each of you for taking the time to help a noob out with my greenhorn questions/ideas. As much time as I spent (numerous hours online) leading up to my first posting, what I thought I'd figured out, it wasn't squat! In the matter of a few days, you guys provided so much practical info and experience, it helped point me in the right direction. Thanks again for caring enough to help!

Hey Ryan (Smudgemo) & Doug (Fattic) -

I especially want to thank both of you for your contributions to this thread. I've mashed it over in my head, I considered my lack of experience coupled with my financial limitations and building a surface plate is the proper choice for me at this time. I just need to get the design down, make a list of materials, and get busy. In the flickr link below, Herbie is utilizing a surface plate, are there any specs or plans available for this frame tool? I'll be off work for a couple of weeks over the holidays and I'd like together materials and get a surface plate made.


__
https://flic.kr/p/4276688044

Thanks all, you've made a newbie feel welcome, and your stories (and images) inspire me to be better than I am... so thank you!

-DON-

p.s. Doug, you must be very proud of Herbie, his artistry is amazing!

p.p.s. Doug (or anyones else that might know), what's the story on this Ti (or is it stainless) frame? It credits you but the site is European without translations. That is one of the prettiest seat tube junctions I've ever seen!


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

That green frame was made by master builder Bruce Gordon. It is titanium. He showed that at Portland NAHBS and it won some award. It was painted by Brian Baylis. He later built another masterpiece with ti lugs and carbon tubes and showed it at Interbike in Las Vegas.

A semi brief history lesson. Americans "discovered" the 10 speed bicycle in 1970. Meaning that that was literally the year when lots of people with a driver's license started to ride a bicycle for recreation (not just kids without cars) and it was thought of as normal. Before that it was an adult activity kin to curling or squash - somebody did it but not anyone you knew. Suddenly many people wanted really good bicycles but there weren't any builders left in the US. The ones that had made bicycles for 6 day racers in the early part of the century had retired or died. 

Albert Eisentraut is the father of modern American framebuilders. He grew up in Chicago and learned from Oscar Wastyn who built the first Schwinn Paramounts (their top of the line model) in the 30's. Albert was also a teacher and held framebuilding classes around the country in the early 1970's. Bruce Gordon took one of those classes and later worked with Albert before they went their separate ways. 

Faliero Masi was a respected Italian builder from Milan. Some rich American paid him a lot to come build his frames in the US in 1973. He brought over Mario Confente one of his builders to help him get started in CA. Brian Baylis went to work for them as a young apprentice that year. Eventually Mario went to work for himself and made something like 130 to 150 frames under his name before dieing suddenly in his 30's. That makes his frames the most desired among collectors. Brian still builds and paints in San Diego. 

There was about a dozen young guys that went to Europe (mostly England) in the early 70's to learn how to build frames. Peter Weigle, Richard Sachs, Peter Mooney and myself were among that group. I was a teacher too and had spent some time during my summer vacations visiting almost all the British builders to see who might be the best fit to teach me. I was determined to bring that knowledge back in the States and teach it here. 

Johnny Berry was a master builder in Manchester who died late 1974. I brought a lot of his workshop back with me after I apprenticed at Ellis Briggs in Shipley (near Bradford and Leeds). I still use his bench vise and cast iron surface plate.


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*Masi - Medici - Simonetti - my garage*

Good morning Doug (and forum),

Thank you for the history lesson, I was familiar with some of those names and details, but didn't realize that it kicked off in the last 40 years. I had no idea that it all happened since I was born (1971), it feels like it should be so much older. I started racing juniors as a freshman in high school back in 1986. I was on the best I could afford at the time, a steel Schwinn 12 speed bought from Monty at Fullerton Schwinn. My riding/racing improved greatly by 1989 and I worked through my senior year so I could afford to buy a Schwinn Circuit (top-of-the-line steel the year w/ lugged Columbus SL) and a Schwinn 974 (formerly "Ontare" and top-of-the-line aluminum licensed from Gary Klein using oversized 7000 series aluminum) as graduation presents to myself. I still own both bicycles, I've bought and sold dozens over the years, but that pair has always stayed with me.

My bike stable has a connection to the past and I never knew the importance. My wife's race bike is a Simonetti with Campy 10 speed, it's done in the classical Italian way with chrome lugs/stays, Ferrari red paint with white accents. To this day, it's still nicer than any bike I have ever owned! I've never moved on from the 8 speed Dura Ace on my 974, I can still close down on just about anyone with that set up, so I've never seen a need. I knew about Gian Simonetti's connection to Medici and I knew Medici was connected to Masi but I did not know that it all happened so recently. I guess I always assumed that the Masi name went way back. I know when I was racing after high school, I saw countless racers on Masi, Medici, Pinarello (the "Italians") and the lone "American" was Paramount. I lusted after the Paramounts I saw hanging at Fullerton Schwinn! I never did buy one. If this frame building thing doesn't work out for me for whatever reason, I've promised myself a nice vintage Paramount to nurse my bruised ego.

Maybe if I can achieve a certain amount of success with building myself some frames, the money I'll save on that Paramount, I could put that towards taking your frame building class.

Thanks again Doug, I appreciate you taking the time!

-DON-


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## cataño (Sep 7, 2009)

Someone mentioned Alex Meade's machining work upthread, and I just wanted to add my vote of confidence for his work. He made me a set of very simple tube blocks with 5" standoff and an adjustable bb post that (along with a full-size drawing/cad printout and a flat surface) make up my 'jig.'










I was able to buy the pieces one-by-one as my budget allowed, and it's a fairly infinitely expandable set-up - in fact, I'm going to be ordering some 34.9 and 38.1 blocks from him in the near future.


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## MDEnvEngr (Mar 11, 2004)

*The rear end jig*



dr.welby said:


> Every time I see that jig it warms my cockles. What are you using for fixturing the back ends of your frames?


I do use some 8020. This is the rear end "jig". Just a piece of 8020 with a big slab of plate bolted to the side. The plate is machined to put the center of a 73mm BB in the center of the 8020. The dummy axle holder (my idea, machining by my machinist buddy at work) has tongues in the bottom to keep things centered on the 8020. I put a dummy BB on the post and then make my chainstays as a sub assembly, including bridge. I then miter the chainstays together. I replace the dummy BB with the front triangle assembly. Use my digital level to set the angle (to include the BB "drop", which usually adds 6 - 8°). I tack the CS assembly to the front triangle in this jig. Then pull out and finish brazing in the stand. Seat stays are done out of the jig.

B


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*Clever ideas!*

MDEnvEngr -

Thanks for the images, that looks like a really nice way to assembly the chain stays. The design is nice and compact and doesn't appear to be too difficult to adjust and expand. Really cool, thanks again!

cataño -

Thank you for contributing, it's good to see your set up using Alex Meade's frame blocks. I've been to his web page a few times and searched his tool area, he lists a price of $30.00 per block, (my question for you) how much do you have into your set up? Did you make the bottom bracket rear drop out pieces?

I was swamped with work for a few weeks, so I was unable to even think about getting together a frame set up. Now, I'm off work until after the first of the year and I'm hoping to make some progress on getting some frame assembly materials together and going. Thank again to this forum for your contributions, they really do help quite a lot and I very much appreciate those of you who took the time!

Happy holidays!

-DON-


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## cataño (Sep 7, 2009)

I didn't buy all the pieces at once so I don't recall the exact price, but I think it worked out to about $600 for the whole set-up. The BB post was the most expensive piece, but even that wasn't much more than $100-150 IIRC, most of which went to the cost of the raw material for the base plate.

I'm hoping to assemble a very simple rear triangle jig out of 8020 that's really close to the one that MDEnvEngr put together with the addition of an adjustable beam to hold the seat tube in place so I can tack CS/BB/ST in one go, check alignment, then move the whole thing to the blocks and build the front end.

I've found that when building jig-less off of a flat surface, the best way to ensure a straight frame is to start with the CS-BB joint first and work forwards from there. If you're doing a fillet brazed frame sans-jig, I'd also strongly suggest going with a shell that has CS sockets over one that's completely lugless. Ceeway offer two different versions - one for 30/16 oval stays and one for 22.2 round stays. The 22.2 version is stamped and requires some handwork, while the 30/16 is a very nice (albeit slightly heavy) casting. YMMV, of course, but that's what works for me.


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

On the Phred framebuilder's list yesterday, Rick posted an interesting idea about using epoxy to create a accurate flat surface for making an alignment table. It is poured on a foundation of something solid but less flat accurate. He posted it under the title of "Getting lucky in Norway". This was in response to a post Truls made about finding a better surface plate in Denmark and as a bonus getting a Bike Machinery Hydra fixture from the same place.

I have 2 cast iron tables as well as a cast aluminum one and in addition a Bike Machinery alignment table with digital readouts for my framebuilding classes so I'm not in any rush to try the concept myself. However I think this idea might be promising for hobby or beginning part time builders. Besides the link to more information in his Phred post he also included another source of cnczone in a private email to me.


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## indrek (Feb 16, 2004)

This was a frame jig I was supposed to build couple of years ago at a local CNC shop. Didn't quite got to that though (carbon frames are to blame )


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## MrCookie (Apr 24, 2005)

*V-Blocks*

I have always wondered why nobody does v-blocks with the v on the side. If mutiples were made, you could use tubes of different diameters without having to compensate for the differences in radii/centerlines.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

v-blocks aren't particularly easy to make


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

MrCookie said:


> I have always wondered why nobody does v-blocks with the v on the side. If mutiples were made, you could use tubes of different diameters without having to compensate for the differences in radii/centerlines.


This is what the Nortac jigs use and I agree, it's a good system. I've seen quite a few ready made blocks at sites like McMaster-Carr that would work


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

It just blows me away what is available for beginning frame builders these days. Just having a single person to bounce ideas with was great, thirty years ago. Now you can purchase everything needed new or used. I started with early BMX production and used technology from motorcycle frames, airplanes and race cars to get started.

I have just recently taken an interest in doing steel frames again after some twenty years of most of my cycle work in aluminum. Most of my tooling is dedicated production fixtures but I now have an Anvil for the frames and home made for the fabrication.

Having done four or five in the past couple of weeks and I am really enjoying it. I am TIG welding the main triangle and improving my brazing hand while nailing on the small parts (I had a little training from a traditional builder at one point).

The next system will be a belt mitre machine like one of you guys have. I am not having any difficulty with material hardness yet with Zona but the harder materials my current system will reach it's limits it seems.

Here are a few pics.


IMG_4012 by frankthewelder, on Flickr

IMG_3927 by frankthewelder, on Flickr


IMG_3927 by frankthewelder, on Flickr


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

verticult, are you frankthewelder?


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*He is one in the same-FTW*

Blaster1200 gets the prize!

Verticult is FTW... and hopefully one day I will have one of those beautiful frames to throw my leg over! I pulled images from a road thread over on the VRC forum, some nice touches on those drop outs! It impressed me when I read that Tim (Aemmer), a rider with an insanely awesome stable of bikes coupled with an unnatural ability to get his hands on rare bike gems, chose to have FTW make his son's first mountain.

Frank, what's inspired you to put the aluminum aside and grab some Columbus Zona? I was checking out the Zona tube set before I bought my Deda. The 8 tube Zona set for a 54cm road frame was around 1350g, my idea was to do a 56cm cyclocross build out of Zona. I decided to get a couple of frames made before I went with Nivacrom alloy.

Thanks for contributing! I dig your Flickr album too, more things to inspire me!

-DON-

p.s. How much for a 56 cross frame out of stainless or Ti?


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

neo_pop_71 said:


> Blaster1200 gets the prize!
> 
> Verticult is FTW... and hopefully one day I will have one of those beautiful frames to throw my leg over! I pulled images from a road thread over on the VRC forum, some nice touches on those drop outs! It impressed me when I read that Tim (Aemmer), a rider with an insanely awesome stable of bikes coupled with an unnatural ability to get his hands on rare bike gems, chose to have FTW make his son's first mountain.
> 
> ...


Hi, I dropped a a machine on my right hand and crushed it pretty well early last spring. I wasn't able to ride my usual machines (DH/trials). I broke out my old Easton road bike but it wasn't really inspiring me to ride. I bought a '78 Raleigh road bike made from 531 and really liked it quite a bit. A friend who owns a small brand suggested he would help me develop a good road bike for my needs (old stiff guy who rides on crappy roads). About the same time two guys who usually buy one of everything offered to but whatever junk I produced as long as it fits them.

I started practicing using a gas torch on brass and silver and so far the silver is going quite well. The brass, not so well. I used boric acid for flux and didn't clean properly on the brass practice. I will build myself a couple of TIG zona frames to get my geo worked out while I practice further with lugs and brass.

I am not really quoting prices, just having a but of fun at this point while I learn. Thanks for the kind words.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

verticult said:


> I used boric acid for flux and didn't clean properly on the brass practice.


Frank, Get yourself some prepared flux (our stuff or gasflux, something). This isn't ancient Egypt or a 1900's Brit frame shop

There really is a heap of difference.

Good luck!


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

dbohemian said:


> Frank, Get yourself some prepared flux (our stuff or gasflux, something). This isn't ancient Egypt or a 1900's Brit frame shop
> 
> There really is a heap of difference.
> 
> Good luck!


Ya, You know how it is..tons of stuff to do already. It's still a hobby.LOL


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## MrCookie (Apr 24, 2005)

Harris #17 flux (blue-green) works well for brass when off the shelf stuff is easiest to come by. 

In the past I tried the black and white fluxes with brass and they were barely better than nothing at all, lots of charring and bubbling in the filler.

Note: I tried the Harris #17 flux with silver based filler, and it was a no go (no flow for me anyway) too.


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## sonic reducer (Apr 12, 2010)

I am gearing up to try and build a frame for the first time. I work in a small architectural metal shop with a tig, grizzly mill/drill, all the saws, hand tools etc. I would like to build a jig that can accomodate a variety of frame designs but be fairly cheap to build. should I go with a flat board type, or upright like a motorcycle frame jig? which is more forgiving to work with as a first timer? I build fixtures a lot but its for stuff that is not at bike frame precision level.

the two thicknesses of 3/4 MDF with V blocks is appealing from a cost and ease of layout perspective but its accuracy and durability seem questionable. if i was to do a vertical jig, I have a few perfect pieces of wide flange beam that i could mill slots into for a back axle fixture and have an angle jig for the head tube. most of the material would be free. I would also build that to accomodate motorcycle frames too. however keeping it straight seems a little tricky and it would be heavy and cumbersome to move around and more work to fabricate.


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

doug fattic said:


> On the Phred framebuilder's list yesterday, Rick posted an interesting idea about using epoxy to create a accurate flat surface for making an alignment table. It is poured on a foundation of something solid but less flat accurate. He posted it under the title of "Getting lucky in Norway". This was in response to a post Truls made about finding a better surface plate in Denmark and as a bonus getting a Bike Machinery Hydra fixture from the same place.
> 
> I have 2 cast iron tables as well as a cast aluminum one and in addition a Bike Machinery alignment table with digital readouts for my framebuilding classes so I'm not in any rush to try the concept myself. However I think this idea might be promising for hobby or beginning part time builders. Besides the link to more information in his Phred post he also included another source of cnczone in a private email to me.


A lot of modern cnc machine bases are made using epoxy granite
There was a big thread over on CNC zone forum regarding this


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## JerryW (Nov 18, 2008)

Taking inspiration from several other jigs found on the internet, I put together a fully adjustable jig based on readily available aluminum extrusions.

Framebuilding Jig

The photo titled "Jig Parts" has notes with the part numbers of each piece. All the photos have larger views under "Actions > View all sizes".

I made the cones on my lathe from some scrap materials, but I'm sure any machine shop could make these for a reasonable price. I've also seen reference to these being available from jig manufacturers, although I don't recall who or where.

I'm just a hobby builder, and have only made three frames in this jig, but it has proven to be much easier to use and more accurate than the MDF flat jig I previously used(and not flammable  ). And the cost was reasonable, less than $150, if I recall.

Jerry


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

JerryW said:


> /URL]


I can't quite figure out how this thing is supposed to work. It seems "too" simple. Does it only build frames where the heat tube angle = the seat tube angle? Looks slick, though. When you do your drawing I would guess you do something like making lines along the x & y axes as defined by the jig so you know how to set it up?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Feldybikes said:


> I can't quite figure out how this thing is supposed to work. It seems "too" simple. Does it only build frames where the heat tube angle = the seat tube angle? Looks slick, though. When you do your drawing I would guess you do something like making lines along the x & y axes as defined by the jig so you know how to set it up?


 This is the jig I copied and it works pretty good I have only made 3 frames so Im no expert!!!


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Feldybikes said:


> I can't quite figure out how this thing is supposed to work. It seems "too" simple. Does it only build frames where the heat tube angle = the seat tube angle? Looks slick, though. When you do your drawing I would guess you do something like making lines along the x & y axes as defined by the jig so you know how to set it up?


These jigs are all rough copies of the Arctos jig, but lack all of the clever stuff in the Arctos that make it possible to set it up without doing a bunch of trigonometry or mocking it up in CAD.

But for the garage builder, easy set-up isn't as important, since set-up time isn't costing you money.


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## JerryW (Nov 18, 2008)

Feldybikes said:


> I can't quite figure out how this thing is supposed to work. It seems "too" simple. Does it only build frames where the heat tube angle = the seat tube angle?


There is enough play in the fastener slots to allow a few degrees difference between head tube and seat tube.



Feldybikes said:


> Looks slick, though. When you do your drawing I would guess you do something like making lines along the x & y axes as defined by the jig so you know how to set it up?


Exactly. The head tube centerline is the vertical Y axis and the horizontal X axis runs through the bottom bracket. AutoCAD makes it easy to get these dimensions.



dr.welby said:


> These jigs are all rough copies of the Arctos jig, but lack all of the clever stuff in the Arctos that make it possible to set it up without doing a bunch of trigonometry or mocking it up in CAD.
> 
> But for the garage builder, easy set-up isn't as important, since set-up time isn't costing you money.


Bingo! Since this is just a hobby for me the extra setup time doesn't matter.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Gotcha. Thanks for the response. This homemade jig is actually simple enough to get me to consider building my own.


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## einreb (Nov 5, 2010)

I think I posted this in another thread, but if you can find a flat metal surface... just use some magnetic bases with cones for the front triangle. Rear triangle you can use a 'T' jig.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

einreb said:


> I think I posted this in another thread, but if you can find a flat metal surface... just use some magnetic bases with cones for the front triangle. Rear triangle you can use a 'T' jig.


Where do you get the magnetic bases and cones?


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## dperalta (Dec 31, 2008)

MrCookie said:


> I have always wondered why nobody does v-blocks with the v on the side. If mutiples were made, you could use tubes of different diameters without having to compensate for the differences in radii/centerlines.


This is exactly how I build my front triangles. I made V-blocks out of oak on my table saw, about 15 of them, all identical. Work great for me. I screw them down to a half sheet of MDF through holes drilled through the blocks, which allows me to adjust the position of the blocks a bit.


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## neo_pop_71 (Apr 11, 2008)

*Interesting idea ! ! !*

Man *bee*, I'm with you, that's such a cool idea! There are many specialty metal supply businesses in my area, I've seen large flat industrial plate in varied thicknesses... I'd really interested to find out who the suppliers or manufacturers are on those magnetic bases and cones!!! I could see mounting the piece of plate to an adjustable drafting table, then you could get at each angle with ease. I have a 60" steel framed professional table that I picked up for free on Craigslist a few months back, this would be a really cool project! Obviously, I get the fact it couldn't be angled to the point the magnets slide but it would make the overall project easier if you weren't bending over a flat table.

Please *einreb*, what's the info on the magnetic bases and cones?

Thanks,

-D-


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## einreb (Nov 5, 2010)

Alex Meade made the cones for me ($30 each?). just steel stock turned and tapped M6? the magnetic bases are available from all sorts of places and have hardware to thread right up to the threaded holes in the cones.

shars.com - 412quot x 1quot x 114quot Magnetic Base


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

MrCookie said:


> I have always wondered why nobody does v-blocks with the v on the side. If mutiples were made, you could use tubes of different diameters without having to compensate for the differences in radii/centerlines.


Mr. Cookie.. I really like your idea. I thought I'd design something up to try to figure out some costs for a DIY. I thought for my initial look-see, I'd use new materials, and try to do a couple of alternatives to improve the cost / build equation.

Note: I've never actually built any parts with this, I'm just thinking out loud.

Assumptions: 
--Its okay to steel (er.. steal) Mr. Cookies design, as he borrowed it from the Wright Brothers in the first place.
--Materials are purchased retail. (i.e. no supply of surplus material on hand...)
--Height of centerline = 10" above the table. I'm thinking I wanted room to TIG tack on bottom side of each joint, with long tungsten cap in place on my torch. (Am I being too detail oriented here?)
--45 degree cut would have minimum 1.5" of flat to accomodate a 3" dia tube.
--Use onlinemetals.com for retail cost comparisions. They are somewhat expensive, yet are a very convenient way to compare one material to another, and get a gut feel for what things cost. Obviously it would be expensive to buy a lot of hot rolled steel and pay shipping. Assume longest material available, cut to length in your shop. Nice web site.

I designed three alternatives.
1) Hot Rolled Hollow tube. 3.5"x3.5"x0.1875" shown. It turns out in that size, only 1/8" gauge is available. (cost = $5.83/ for one holder) If I go to 2"x3"x0.1875", the cost for one holder is $7.66

2) Pure Mr. Cookie design, solid material, 1.5"x3" shown, could be steel or aluminum. It turns out online metals doesn't have solid material in 1.5"x3"... 2"x3" steel would run $38.48 (ouch). 1x3" steel = $12.63 / for one tubing holder. 1.5x3" 6061 aluminum = $16.95 / for one holder.

3) Angle Iron version. I wanted to see if this was even possible. I designed for 2"x2" angle iron (0.1875" gauge) There are four pieces cut 6" in length, and one three inch length to actually hold the tube. The splice in the middle is there to accomodate welding & setup variability. I'd propose four oversized drilled holes. Oversized to allow for vertical adjustment, and space for shims to adjust for angle work as necessary. Cost for this option is $7.48 each.

I'm thinking options #1 and #2 really require access to a milling machine. Option #3 could probably be build with simple tools, adjusted on a surface plate for final accuracy.

Obviously I've got to finish a design for a locking mechanism. A small v block (Like Mr. Cookies') or a heavy gauge wire bent to shape and threaded on the ends for wingnuts.

For me, I'm possibly on the path for 2x3" hollow steel tubing, with some machine shop time at the local hackers space (i3detroit.org) its a clean design, stores well, cost effective. (Note: I'm still thinking the flat table layout thing versus inexpensive DIY jig as well..) I'm in this purely as a hobby.. perhaps two or three frames per year?

Comments? Other ideas?

--zip.


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