# Clear coat over decals into a fresh Powder Coated frame.



## Pepelepu (May 5, 2012)

Hi everyone.
I'm Restoring my hardtail and in the process I did a Powder coating on the frame.
I will put Giant decals because my bike is a Giant, also some personalized name logo that I did. The reason I want to do Clear coat over the decals is to protect them. Has anybody tried to do something similar? If so, what kind of clear coat method you guys did? Any bad experiences? 
Please, dont come with answers like "you dont need a clear coat over Powder coating", "dont put decals on your bike".
Anybody that is going to install new decals, knows what I'm talking about, if you se at your new bike, if is a major brand will notice that the decals are under a coat.
Thank you guys.


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## raggydoo (Jun 18, 2008)

Never tried it but I'd be interested to know what you find out.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been wondering the same thing. I could see how the clear coat could smear the decal ink or disolve the glue or make the decal bubble etc. Its good to look into it before you start spraying.


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## DC2.2GSR (Apr 12, 2012)

Clear won't do anything to the logo decals, assuming they're printed and/or cut on quality vinyl. I'm an automotive painter and I've done hundreds of projects that involved clearing over decals of some sort. The industry standard method of putting clear over vinyl would be to lay a base coat, apply the vinyl, clear coat and let cure. Wetsand the clear, reapply clear, and wetsand again. Repeat until there are no more edges. Depending on the thickness of the vinyl, it could take at least four coats of clear (2+2), but up to 10 or so if it's a thick decal. That opens up another entire discussion about stacking (layering) clear, but you get the point. Clear over vinyl is okay. :thumbsup:

As for clearing over the powder, don't do it. The problem that you're going to run into is with adhesion. First, depending on which brand of clear you use, you _may_ have issues chemically by putting the clear over powder. It's not likely, but it's a possibility. Next, and most likely is a mechanical adhesion problem. In order to get the clear to properly adhere to the surface, you'll have to sand the powder coat before the vinyl goes on, apply the vinyl, and then clear coat it.

With a standard automotive process, you would wet or dry sand the old clear coat with 800 to 1000 grit before re-clearing. The problem is that 1000 grit won't even tickle powder coat. You'll have to go much lower, maybe even 400 to start. Depending on your powder color, you may distort or thin a solid color, and you will definitely destroy anything metallic. Powder coat is essentially (for this comparison only) a single-stage paint, meaning that the color and the shine are all in one. Disturbing the surface will distort the way the color looks and move metallics. That's a bad situation every time. The only fix would be to re-powder the parts.

After each issue above, you still might end up with all kinds of fisheyes, etc. from trying to spray one material over an entirely different and possibly incompatible material. Avoid all the problems and just talk to your powdercoater about laying a clear powder over everything once the decals are on. It's a much easier and more durable option. After all, you got your bike powder coated for a reason (durability) and putting automotive clear over the powder defeats the entire purpose of powder coating.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

DC2.2GSR said:


> Clear won't do anything to the logo decals, assuming they're printed and/or cut on quality vinyl. I'm an automotive painter and I've done hundreds of projects that involved clearing over decals of some sort. The industry standard method of putting clear over vinyl would be to lay a base coat, apply the vinyl, clear coat and let cure. Wetsand the clear, reapply clear, and wetsand again. Repeat until there are no more edges. Depending on the thickness of the vinyl, it could take at least four coats of clear (2+2), but up to 10 or so if it's a thick decal. That opens up another entire discussion about stacking (layering) clear, but you get the point. Clear over vinyl is okay. :thumbsup:
> 
> As for clearing over the powder, don't do it. The problem that you're going to run into is with adhesion. First, depending on which brand of clear you use, you _may_ have issues chemically by putting the clear over powder. It's not likely, but it's a possibility. Next, and most likely is a mechanical adhesion problem. In order to get the clear to properly adhere to the surface, you'll have to sand the powder coat before the vinyl goes on, apply the vinyl, and then clear coat it.
> 
> ...


Great info! Thanks.


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## Ltdan12a (Jun 15, 2012)

How will the decals react to the baking process for the powdercoat though?


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Decals eventually get damaged. If their above the clear they are easy to replace. Ive done frames with decals above and below clear and my preference is definitly above. Below a clear definitly looks better when done like describbed above but its an expensive process.


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## Pepelepu (May 5, 2012)

DC2.2GSR said:


> Clear won't do anything to the logo decals, assuming they're printed and/or cut on quality vinyl. I'm an automotive painter and I've done hundreds of projects that involved clearing over decals of some sort. The industry standard method of putting clear over vinyl would be to lay a base coat, apply the vinyl, clear coat and let cure. Wetsand the clear, reapply clear, and wetsand again. Repeat until there are no more edges. Depending on the thickness of the vinyl, it could take at least four coats of clear (2+2), but up to 10 or so if it's a thick decal. That opens up another entire discussion about stacking (layering) clear, but you get the point. Clear over vinyl is okay....


Very good info you wrote. If sanding the PC is a MUST, then I'll just forget that and install the decals over the frame and call it done. I asked the PC guys and they told me that there was no chemical reaction to it, that it was ok to clear coat over, but never mentioned the part of wetsanding the PC. I'll do some research still to find out about reacting chemicals on these two methods.
Thank you very much.


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## DC2.2GSR (Apr 12, 2012)

Ltdan12a said:


> How will the decals react to the baking process for the powdercoat though?


I'm not very familiar with powder coating from my own personal experience, I just know the basics from being in relatively the same industry. We actually sub out all of our powder work to another local shop. I do know that the bake temps for powder are _much_ higher than the 160-ish degrees that I use to force dry paint work. The survivability of the decals depends on a lot of factors, one being the quality of the vinyl. The best way to figure it out is the have your powdercoater lay out some of the identical materials on a test panel, apply the decal, clear powder the panel and bake it.



Pepelepu said:


> Very good info you wrote. If sanding the PC is a MUST, then I'll just forget that and install the decals over the frame and call it done. I asked the PC guys and they told me that there was no chemical reaction to it, that it was ok to clear coat over, but never mentioned the part of wetsanding the PC. I'll do some research still to find out about reacting chemicals on these two methods.
> Thank you very much.


Sanding the powder coat in some way/shape/form is definitely a must. Again, you need some sort of mechanical adhesion or else the paint will peel off like a layer of skin.

customfab is right, if you're hard on your equipment the easiest and cheapest way is definitely to put the decals on the exterior and let them be. If they get damaged, you can use an eraser wheel to kill the old decal without damaging the surface finish and then reapply another decal and you're back in business.

I definitely prefer to avoid using vinyl decals altogether unless it's a specific factory decal or a very complicated printed vinyl. I'd rather cut paint mask material and do the work with basecoat alone, then bury it under some clear and sand it smooth. That's a much more complicated, time consuming and expensive process, but it's reasonable to say that it's the only proper way to do the paint work. In my opinion, burying actual vinyl itself is kind of a half-assed way to go about it. It's all about perspective though. To someone who just wants the logos on the bike and protected from minor wear, clearing over vinyl is fine. To me, someone who does custom paint work for a living, I think that masking and doing the base coat work is the only acceptable way. However, that requires planning ahead and visualizing the final product completely. In the OP's case, that would mean avoiding powder coating altogether and doing it all with automotive base and clear.


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## Quik66 (Jun 26, 2012)

DC2.2GSR said:


> Next, and most likely is a mechanical adhesion problem. In order to get the clear to properly adhere to the surface, you'll have to sand the powder coat before the vinyl goes on, apply the vinyl, and then clear coat it.
> 
> With a standard automotive process, you would wet or dry sand the old clear coat with 800 to 1000 grit before re-clearing. The problem is that 1000 grit won't even tickle powder coat. You'll have to go much lower, maybe even 400 to start. Depending on your powder color, you may distort or thin a solid color, and you will definitely destroy anything metallic. Powder coat is essentially (for this comparison only) a single-stage paint, meaning that the color and the shine are all in one. Disturbing the surface will distort the way the color looks and move metallics. That's a bad situation every time. The only fix would be to re-powder the parts.
> 
> After each issue above, you still might end up with all kinds of fisheyes, etc. from trying to spray one material over an entirely different and possibly incompatible material. Avoid all the problems and just talk to your powdercoater about laying a clear powder over everything once the decals are on. It's a much easier and more durable option. After all, you got your bike powder coated for a reason (durability) and putting automotive clear over the powder defeats the entire purpose of powder coating.


I do alot of automotive restorations and hang out with alot of others, and I recall several powder coating shops telling me to scuff the PC with a Scotch-Brite pad (I recall, it was the maroon/red pads)... I even recently had some wheels PC'd but i will eventually paint them another color (not "clear" though)...

But I'd talk to the powder coater about applying the clear, and possibly get some extra pieces to try out ( maybe one piece of metal to see IF the decal survives the 400+ degree cure... Maybe another piece or two to try scuffing/sanding and Clearing with paint, to see IF the color/sheen still look good.)...


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## Toddlar (Jan 2, 2015)

My company makes the actual decals for OEM bike manufactures. They are designed to withstand 450F so they can be clearcoated with poyesters and such. Most companies use acrylics but I see very good results from TGIC. 
As for decals, Vinyl is out . It's very thick, shrinks and looks terrible. The ink will not likely be suitable for high temperature so it will bleed. If you must use Vinyl don't clearcoat it. Tell your friends your going for the Walmart look. 
There is no need to scuff powder prior to applying a clear power on top. Your powder supplier can tell you which powders are comparable. This is absolutely not necessary!!! There is not one manufacture on this planet that scuffs the bikes prior to clearcoat. They would have gone out of business years ago had they tried. 
You will also notice that many newer bikes have a combination of gloss and matte two tone. This is done with baked on decals that are as durable as the paint finish. This saves a lot of labor cost in masking ,unmasking etc. Here is our website for further information but unfortunately we do not make decals for retail customers unless you want to buy a few thousand. TSL Graphics | Printer of Decals Badges Stickers & Transfers I am not aware of anyone would be interested in selling you a decal. Sorry.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Toddlar said:


> My company makes the actual decals for OEM bike manufactures. They are designed to withstand 450F so they can be clearcoated with poyesters and such. Most companies use acrylics but I see very good results from TGIC.
> As for decals, Vinyl is out . It's very thick, shrinks and looks terrible. The ink will not likely be suitable for high temperature so it will bleed. If you must use Vinyl don't clearcoat it. Tell your friends your going for the Walmart look.
> There is no need to scuff powder prior to applying a clear power on top. Your powder supplier can tell you which powders are comparable. This is absolutely not necessary!!! There is not one manufacture on this planet that scuffs the bikes prior to clearcoat. They would have gone out of business years ago had they tried.
> You will also notice that many newer bikes have a combination of gloss and matte two tone. This is done with baked on decals that are as durable as the paint finish. This saves a lot of labor cost in masking ,unmasking etc. Here is our website for further information but unfortunately we do not make decals for retail customers unless you want to buy a few thousand. I am not aware of anyone would be interested in selling you a decal. Sorry.


Excellent 2.5 year old thread resurrection!


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

006_007 said:


> Excellent 2.5 year old thread resurrection!


It is either that or an excellent spam attack. Click on the link I dare ya.


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## Toddlar (Jan 2, 2015)

deke505 said:


> It is either that or an excellent spam attack. Click on the link I dare ya.


No , not spam just a slow day at the office. Came across the thread could not let some of the comments stand.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I have used Dupont Imron clear over everything including chrome, but as was stated there is on under adhesion, doing something like this for a show finish that does really see the real world will work, but if you nick the clear it peals off in sheet form...
...so for a bicycle frame that will it's share of chips from use I wouldn't do it.


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## CaptDan (Jun 26, 2013)

Has anyone simply wrapped-over the decals with a sheet of clear vinyl?

https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/7/0/7/3/1/8/webimg/654094526_o.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KLWprn5jTXw/0.jpg


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

CaptDan said:


> Has anyone simply wrapped-over the decals with a sheet of clear vinyl?
> 
> https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/7/0/7/3/1/8/webimg/654094526_o.jpg
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KLWprn5jTXw/0.jpg


That's basically what a Frameskin or Invisiframe kit would do, and it's a great option.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

What about running no decals except a headtube badge? is that a major no-no?


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

The Down Tube Police will be contacting you soon.


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## D. Doyle (Jan 30, 2021)

Toddlar said:


> My company makes the actual decals for OEM bike manufactures. They are designed to withstand 450F so they can be clearcoated with poyesters and such. Most companies use acrylics but I see very good results from TGIC.
> As for decals, Vinyl is out . It's very thick, shrinks and looks terrible. The ink will not likely be suitable for high temperature so it will bleed. If you must use Vinyl don't clearcoat it. Tell your friends your going for the Walmart look.
> There is no need to scuff powder prior to applying a clear power on top. Your powder supplier can tell you which powders are comparable. This is absolutely not necessary!!! There is not one manufacture on this planet that scuffs the bikes prior to clearcoat. They would have gone out of business years ago had they tried.
> You will also notice that many newer bikes have a combination of gloss and matte two tone. This is done with baked on decals that are as durable as the paint finish. This saves a lot of labor cost in masking ,unmasking etc. Here is our website for further information but unfortunately we do not make decals for retail customers unless you want to buy a few thousand. TSL Graphics | Printer of Decals Badges Stickers & Transfers I am not aware of anyone would be interested in selling you a decal. Sorry.


I am literally stumbling my way through this process now. So glad this thread exists. Great answers people.


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