# Is e-MTB lazy? Find out on Mbr



## Jamie_MTB (Nov 18, 2004)

Very interesting

Is e-MTB lazy? - MBR


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

"Hater" here () but I never thought electric bikes were for lazy or bad people, only that they are different than bicycles and allow people to travel much faster and further than they could on a bicycle as evidenced by the linked vid.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Then riding a moto is super lazy...
...I love being super lazy!

Brraaap...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yep, it's pretty clear that you can ride putting out the same effort and go farther and faster with what the motor adds on top, or you can back off, let the motor make up the difference and ride at the same pace as usual or anywhere in between. I don't think it's a crime to do either.

There's other people who have pointed out the same thing.

Riding an Electric Bike is NOT Cheating. Here?s the Data to Prove It [VIDEO] | Electric Bike Report | Electric Bike, Ebikes, Electric Bicycles, E Bike, Reviews


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Having a motor makes it a moot point.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

FOR ME (probably I'm strange), don't know why most individuals would want to ride an eMTB except for a different riding experience (my reason), deteriorating fitness, physically challenged or for some reason they need to cover more ground. My fit friends like them for commuting, but that's understandable.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

I dont think you can actually go further, except if you take a couple of spare batteries with you. Which weigh a lot! I think an mtb century with lots of elevation gain would be quite hard on a single battery (or two) pack once it runs out of juice.

I think some people that use them have a legitimate reason to, but for many, it is a rather, shall I say, easier way to get out into nature and "pedal" up a climb. But hey, there are even lazier people staying on their couches watching tv all day. Who am I to judge? One thing is for sure though, its not cycling or mountain biking any more, but that doesnt mean its bad or that its not super fun. I used to be into atvs before I got into mountain biking. I wasnt cycling or mountain biking when I was riding my atv up the mountains, but I sure was having fun and getting some workout. I see E motorcycling with pedals kind of the same. Its Just something different. What I still dont get is why its being discussed in a mountain biking forum. I dont see any atv or moto enduro sub forum in here. Should we open one up? I want to know how many people are still using two strokes and what their advantages are over modern 4 stroke engines. 

Cheers


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Because 4 is double 2, it has to be better! I just wish my billion watt eMTB made more noise when I crack the throttle. I like the sound of power, want others to know my eMTB is the biggest baddest on the mountain and it makes my eh-hum “nose” grow. I’ve always had nose envy.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Having a motor makes it a moot point.


Because, as the saying goes; 'Real men(and ladies) don't need motors.'


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

abelfonseca said:


> One thing is for sure though, its not cycling or mountain biking any more, but that doesnt mean its bad or that its not super fun.


 Opinions vary. While you have the right to form your own opinion, it remains your own opinion.

My opinion is that the eMTB is an evolutionary change of the MTB that has been enabled largely by advancements in science and technology (advancements in batteries being perhaps the best example) driven by higher demand in other applications, and now being applied at little marginal cost in development to eMTBs, eBicycles in general.

I see the eMTB (and eBicycle) as an evolutionary change of the MTB (and Bicycle) rather than a revolutionary change independent from the bicycle simply because they share so many parts in common. It seems relatively obvious that for moderate cost one can now convert an existing MTB to eMTB while keeping the same frame, the same headset, the same fork, the same handlebars and stem, the same rear suspension and shock, the same hubs, the same spokes, the same rims, the same tires, the same brake rotors, the same calipers, the same brake lines, the same master cylinders and lever sets, the same seat post and seat, etc. They share very much in common. The vendors that sell those parts pay the forum owner to advertise here. Providing the eMTB subforum will likely increase his revenue from that advertising.



abelfonseca said:


> I see E motorcycling with pedals kind of the same. Its just something different. What I still dont get is why its being discussed in a mountain biking forum.


One very good reason for the eMTB subforum here is the aforementioned close commonality with MTBs.

Another and perhaps the most important reason for an eMTB subforum in an advertising supported for-profit privately owned discussion forum with many other subforums on inter-related subtopics would be that the owner of the forum wants it here and/or someone acting in the owner's behalf wants it here.

There are more than a few luddites here who are not satisfied with avoiding subjects that do not interest them, but are further motivated to try and force away discussion of the subject matter toward reducing exposure and promotion of something they want to terminate.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

abelfonseca said:


> I dont think you can actually go further, except if you take a couple of spare batteries with you. Which weigh a lot! I think an mtb century with lots of elevation gain would be quite hard on a single battery (or two) pack once it runs out of juice.
> 
> I think some people that use them have a legitimate reason to, but for many, it is a rather, shall I say, easier way to get out into nature and "pedal" up a climb. But hey, there are even lazier people staying on their couches watching tv all day. Who am I to judge? One thing is for sure though, its not cycling or mountain biking any more, but that doesnt mean its bad or that its not super fun. I used to be into atvs before I got into mountain biking. I wasnt cycling or mountain biking when I was riding my atv up the mountains, but I sure was having fun and getting some workout. I see E motorcycling with pedals kind of the same. Its Just something different. What I still dont get is why its being discussed in a mountain biking forum. I dont see any atv or moto enduro sub forum in here. Should we open one up? I want to know how many people are still using two strokes and what their advantages are over modern 4 stroke engines.
> 
> Cheers


I'm with you, this site shouldn't discriminate against e-bikes just because they lack pedals.

Hey I just checked out KTM's website. They have a new range of E-Bikes!

E-Ride

Sadly the batteries weigh 28kg and provide only 2.6kWh. Peak power is 16kw, only 11kw continuous, so only good for 2-3hrs of riding and then how do you recharge it when you're out in the world? Bring a generator and charge over night?

I'm way more interested in the Freeride 250 R, has about twice the peak power, better range, much easier and faster to refuel. Can't imagine going for the electric version at this time.

KTM Freeride 250 R 2017


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eri said:


> I'm with you, this site shouldn't discriminate against e-bikes just because they lack pedals.


Then it would be a motorcycle forum.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> I see the eMTB (and eBicycle) as an evolutionary change of the MTB (and Bicycle) rather than a revolutionary change independent from the bicycle simply because they share so many parts in common. It seems relatively obvious that for moderate cost one can now convert an existing MTB to eMTB while keeping the same frame, the same headset, the same fork, the same handlebars and stem, the same rear suspension and shock, the same hubs, the same spokes, the same rims, the same tires, the same brake rotors, the same calipers, the same brake lines, the same master cylinders and lever sets, the same seat post and seat, etc. They share very much in common.


True, you can do that with a Whizzer motor too, which while stinkier, I see more of around here. I wouldn't call either version of a motorized bicycle a bicycle, but I will agree they are fun to ride and can make people money.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

A motorized bicycle is just that, a bicycle that has altered by adding a motor.

Adding a receiver hitch, tow bar and trailer to a Porsche 911 does not change it into a truck or a tractor, rather it remains very much an automobile, merely one that has been altered to allow for the towing of a trailer.

If you attend any autocross races, you will likely see sport oriented automobiles towing tire trailers into and out of the paddock area before and after the racing events. Out on the street, the owner can expect to encounter some fanboy who gets his knickers in a twist over seeing a receiver hitch on one the sports cars that he so dearly loves, cars owned by someone else.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> A motorized bicycle is just that, a bicycle that has altered by adding a motor.
> 
> Adding a receiver hitch, tow bar and trailer to a Porsche 911 does not change it into a truck or a tractor, rather it remains very much an automobile, merely one that has been altered to allow for the towing of a trailer.
> 
> ...


Unlike your example, a premise or a fundamental characteristic of cycling is doing it without any external power source, only the one provided by your own body (and the accumulation of gravitational potential energy). Adding or removing a hitch from a car is not a fundamental characteristic of a car or driving a car. A hitch on a porsche would be more akin to kickstand on a mountain bike, horrible indeed, but still a bike with which you can do propoer cycling.

I get your point on the electric motorbikes sharing components with bicycles and thus having a place here, but so do recumbents and road bikes and you dont see much of them here. Even though they are 100% human powered, they have their own dedicated forums. I dont actually mind e motocycles being discussed on mtbr, but if I was an ebiker, I would probably be in one of these:

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/
https://electricbike.com/forum
UK Electric Bikes l Pedelecs

Cheers


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Opinions vary. While you have the right to form your own opinion, it remains your own opinion.
> 
> My opinion is that the eMTB is an evolutionary change of the MTB that has been enabled largely by advancements in science and technology (advancements in batteries being perhaps the best example) driven by higher demand in other applications, and now being applied at little marginal cost in development to eMTBs, eBicycles in general.
> 
> ...


 Hmmm. Evolutionary? Remains to be seen. Call it what you like but bikes don't have motors. E bikes are somethings else. As defined by the governing bodies for road and off road. Motor, motorcycle, moped. The issue is lumping them all together. Looks like a bike? Must be the same. Not. YRMV.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I have nothing against motors. Enjoy them quite a bit. 
But bicycles don't have them. Adding one is not an 'evolution', it's a complete negation of one of the most fundamental aspects of the definition of 'bicycle'.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

abelfonseca said:


> I want to know how many people are still using two strokes and what their advantages are over modern 4 stroke engines.


We just picked up a new 2-stroke the other day, cuz 4-strokes in kid sizes are slow and shitty. 

17,000 watts of BRAAAPPPP!!!!


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Given recent events, can an E-Bike now be called and "Alternative Bike"?


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> We just picked up a new 2-stroke the other day, cuz 4-strokes in kid sizes are slow and shitty.
> 
> 17,000 watts of BRAAAPPPP!!!!


Cool! I wonder though, given title of this thread... does your use of this machine mean you're... llllazy?

Ya know... this fake news problem we're having these days. The new 'alternative fact' universe. One thing that's needed is some sort of trust network to validate the source and make it easy to dial back on the fake facts.

So... I wonder what the connection is between e-bike advocates and the e-bike industry?

Like... who decided this sub-forum belonged on this site, and what were their reasons? Can we find the person and hear from them?

Yeah it might increase traffic, so I can see an bare monetary incentive. But to me it is like having an 'mtb' subgroup next to 'running shoes' on a trailrunning site. I don't go to the trailrunner forums and post about mtb being an 'evolution' of running. Or suggest that mtb riders are/aren't lazy.


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## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

I think it's lazy if you choose to ride an E-Bike and your equally unfit friends ride regular mountainbikes when you ride with them.

It's not lazy if you ride with friends on E-bikes as well.

IMO


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

I think it's funny this is even up for debate.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

eri said:


> Cool! I wonder though, given title of this thread... does your use of this machine mean you're... llllazy?
> 
> .


It's not mine, it's my 12 y/o son's. 
He rides it when he's not playing video games.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

d365 said:


> I think it's funny this is even up for debate.


It's not. The inclusion of motors decided this before it started.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm. Evolutionary? Remains to be seen. Call it what you like but bikes don't have motors. E bikes are somethings else.


Opinions vary.

Below is a Zerode G2 downhill unassisted MTB. Its an interesting design, uses a Shimano Alfine geared hub as a mid-drive transmission, overdrives it to reduce torque loading on the gears. It provides reliable quick shifting under load, and has reduced unsprung weight as compared to most other mutli-speed designs. The downside of the extra mechanism associated with both primary and secondary chain drives is that it is not a lightweight bicycle.

















Again in case you missed it the first time, the above is not a motorized bicycle. The device in the middle is a geared hub.

Below is a 5kw-6kw (crest power level, not continuous) conversion of a Zerode G2 by Tangent Motors. There is a 40:1 eccentric drive gear reduction unit between the motor and the drive sprocket.

Batteries are carried in a backpack.

To me that is still a bicycle, just far more usable, and relatively fast on uphill climbs where chairlifts are not available.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> To me that is still a bicycle, just far more usable, and relatively fast on uphill climbs where chairlifts are not available?


Opinions vary, but facts do not. Bicycles do not have a motor. That motorbike has a motor. Not debatable.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

{{{ deleted ... I do not want to further perpetuate an argument about semantics }}}


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Below is a 5kw-6kw (crest power level, not continuous) conversion of a Zerode G2 by Tangent Motors. There is a 40:1 eccentric drive gear reduction unit between the motor and the drive sprocket.
> 
> Batteries are carried in a backpack.
> 
> To me that is still a bicycle, just far more usable, and relatively fast on uphill climbs where chairlifts are not available.


Dave's got a nice rig and makes a beautiful motor, but I find it amusing that you think an ebike with a claimed 45mph top speed without pedalling is still a bike.

Here it is in action:


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Irony is posting in a thread discussing laziness while touting lift assisted motorbikes.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> {{{ deleted ... I do not want to further perpetuate an argument about semantics }}}


 Alternative facts perhaps? So, JRT, you in Western MA? Plenty of places for your motor sports, not so much near the Boston Area. Lazy? Hmmm. Well the mountain in mountain bikes mean that ( wait for it) some mountain bikers actually ride UP a mountain and then ride down it, go figure. Did some awesome down hill single track off the back side of Jiminy Peak back when Pedros fest was a thing.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

tiretracks said:


> Irony is posting in a thread discussing laziness while touting lift assisted motorbikes.


What is your definition of a "lift assisted motorbike"? Are you referring to those as being motorbikes simply because they are using a chair lift to power the ascent up the mountain? By that logic, if you carry a bicycle in the bed of a pickup to get to he trailhead, does that action make a bicycle a motorbike? Yours is an interesting concept, but I cannot agree with that.

Those bicycles on the chairlift are not bicycles that have been augmented with electric motor drives, rather are just the usual old fashion conventional bicycles.

A lot of downhill ski areas generate additional revenue in warm weather by offering that activity.

Customers use the chairlift to ascend the mountain with their bicycle. Instead of using an electric motor on the bicycle, they use the electric motor on the chairlift to power the climb, and then use gravity to power most of the descent.


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## JRT_in_WMass (Jul 22, 2013)

Harryman said:


> Dave's got a nice rig and makes a beautiful motor, but I find it amusing that you think an ebike with a claimed 45mph top speed without pedalling is still a bike.


Consider the progression:

1.) Carry some uninstalled parts in your back pack, and ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle.

2.) Carry the same parts on a bike rack, and ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle.

3.) Attach the parts to the bicycle frame, but do not connect the motor to the drive system, and ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle.

4.) Attach the parts to the bicycle frame, and connect the motor to the drive system, but do not connect a battery, and ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle.

5.) Attach the parts to the bicycle frame, and connect the motor to the drive system, but do not connect the battery except for assistance in climbing steep hills, and otherwise ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle, a bicycle that is augmented with electric power on hills.

6.) Attach the parts to the bicycle frame, and connect the motor to the drive system, and use a switch to connect/disconnect power to the motor on demand, and otherwise ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring; 
is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle, a bicycle that is augmented with electric power on demand.

Also... 
On level ground, drag and the tractive effort (propulsive force at the contact patch, proportional to drive wheel torque) required to overcome that drag, increase with approximate proportion to the square of the speed, and similarly propulsive power on level ground increases approximately with proportion to the cube of the speed, such that a 6.0_kW motor can deliver 2x the speed of a 0.75kW motor on level ground. But none of that is a consideration in whether or not it is a bicycle augmented with electric power. So yes, regardless that he claims 45_mph top speed, his bicycle is a bicycle because he can use the throttle to turn off the power and ride the bicycle using only the power of his legs to rotate the chainring. 
Is it not a bicycle? 
Yes, it is a bicycle, a bicycle that is augmented with electric power on demand.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bikes don't have motors. Motorized vehicles are another. What matters is how the land managers and property owners define them. Not your convoluted thinking. And bikes don't have throttles. E motorcycles do. As said before, plenty of motorized places to use them in western MA. Don't poach biker/hiker trails. Sort of like trying to explain to the officer that you are only " a little " drunk.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Goofy and convoluted semantics aside, bicycles really don't have motors. That's the essence of what makes them bicycles.
It's really not all that complicated.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Consider the progression:


Sweet freshman philosophy paper!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

The entire premise of e-bikes requires that folks be confused by these logic games.

People building/advertising/selling ebikes need to be on board with those argument, otherwise they'd go do something else. Why make the ebike? You must support the fiction that 'its a bike.'

I think that's true. If folks just wanted to be out in nature without pedaling then current motorbikes are wonderful. What isn't met today by motorbikes? Trail access. Is there any other reason for ebikes to exist than to try and weasle trail access?

I'm more sympathetic to the disabled access argument, and even so I'm comfortable telling them to find a different sport - even great surfers get old and must give up surfing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

There is no footing to deny disabled use; you'd likely be breaking the law by trying. 
Have to be kind of a dick to want to in the first place IMHO.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Consider the progression:
> 
> 1.) Carry some uninstalled parts in your back pack, and ride the bicycle using the power of your legs to rotate the chainring;
> is it not a bicycle?
> ...


Da FUUUUUUUUU........


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

abelfonseca said:


> Da FUUUUUUUUU........


Exactly. Holy hell what did I just read?


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> There is no footing to deny disabled use; you'd likely be breaking the law by trying.
> Have to be kind of a dick to want to in the first place IMHO.


You're simply wrong about the law - which dovetails with why we don't see disabled folks (legally) riding the PCT on motorcycles, in national parks, etc.

I am sorry but I question your incentives. What is the world you are advocating for?

Do you have any financial relationship with ebikes?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> Consider the progression:


By that unassailable logic, I can see that this is also a bicycle, just augmented with ICE power. It's got bike parts, it's got pedals, you can pedal it, the holy trifecta.






https://motoped.com/

It's amazing no one has ever thought of adding motors to bicycles before.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

eri said:


> You're simply wrong about the law - which dovetails with why we don't see disabled folks (legally) riding the PCT on motorcycles, in national parks, etc.
> 
> I am sorry but I question your incentives. What is the world you are advocating for?
> 
> Do you have any financial relationship with ebikes?


How familiar are you with ADA guidelines governing OPDMD access? You'll likely be surprised as to what's allowed, and where. Unless you've got some specific background with those guidelines and how they're applied, and are in a position of power with regard to the trails you're on, you're best off piping down around anybody who's claiming a disability pass when it comes to using an e-bike as an OPDMD. It's very unlikely you'll be in the right.

I don't have any incentives, and I'm not advocating for any sort of world. Well, maybe one where people use more common sense and spread less misinformation.

I once loaned an e-bike some money, but it paid me back over time and though we no longer have a financial relationship, we still get together for a beer once in awhile. 
:crazy:


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> How familiar are you with ADA guidelines governing OPDMD access?


I'm a small fish. I only know a bit about trail access rights because some wicked hikers make it necessary. And I have the local ranger district number in my phone who can do the explaining. Here is an url that I *think* describes the current situation pretty well, but I'm not a lawyer and would love if you could explain the actual rules:

QUESTIONS and ANSWERS on Department of Justice Rule on Other Power Driven Mobility Devices

I've pasted here a relevant snippet but it aint the written law - I would appreciate if you could correct any mistakes.


Q. Does the DOJ ADA rule also apply to Federal agencies?
A. The National Forest System, the National Park Service, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and the other Federal land management agencies are not under the 1990 ADA and therefore the ADA rule does not apply directly to them. Federal agencies are under the 1968 Architectural Barriers Act (ABA) requiring new or altered facilities to comply with the accessibility guidelines and the 1973 Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act requiring qualified people with disabilities not be denied participation unless allowing that participation would result in a fundamental alteration of the program.

Q. Some of our trails are on US Forest Service managed land. How do the travel management designations affect National Forest trails?
A. Under US Forest Service regulations, any device that meets the requirements of the wheelchair definition is allowed to be used wherever foot travel is allowed. All self-propelled motorized devices that do not meet the definition of a wheelchair are considered to be motor vehicles of various classes. During travel planning the effects of classes of motor vehicles on public safety, and cultural and natural resources were considered across US Forest Service managed lands. Those routes and areas found to have acceptable impacts for various classes of motorized vehicles were designated and are shown on the National Forest or Grassland's Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM). The designated routes on the MVUM may be used by all people for the classes of vehicles specified. Motor vehicle use inconsistent with these designations is prohibited for everyone.

Therefore the US Forest Service designation process has assessed the lands for use by various classes of motorized devices in accordance with the DOJ assessment factors and has determined where which classes may be used and where such use is not allowed. The prior-notice requirement information about where certain vehicles are allowed on National Forests and Grasslands are met through the online information postings, and also available upon request.​


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Being Ada doesn't allow you to go anywhere or do anything. Nor does it require people/agencies to make everything accessible. Try to ride an ebike on blm land, while claiming Ada and see what happens. You'll be asked to leave and not return. I'd you do, you'll get a ticket. No apologies.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

JRT_in_WMass said:


> What is your definition of a "lift assisted motorbike"? Are you referring to those as being motorbikes simply because they are using a chair lift to power the ascent up the mountain? By that logic, if you carry a bicycle in the bed of a pickup to get to he trailhead, does that action make a bicycle a motorbike? Yours is an interesting concept, but I cannot agree with that.
> 
> Those bicycles on the chairlift are not bicycles that have been augmented with electric motor drives, rather are just the usual old fashion conventional bicycles.
> 
> ...


Well said. If you don't climb up endless mountains with a fig newton in your mouth with Teva hikers and a hard tail singlespeed, you're pretty much an ebiker as defined by posters here. Its the most hardcore group of bikers you'll ever encounter.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The only difference is they are not on singletrack going uphill. The 2 major issues will always be 1) Ebikes threatening trail access as they are hard to differ from conventional and 2) Closing speeds. I personally think downhillers that chairlift exert less energy than ebikers. Not saying downhill runs are not fun, but at least with an ebike, you are pedaling uphill.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Try to ride an ebike on blm land, while claiming Ada and see what happens. You'll be asked to leave and not return. I'd you do, you'll get a ticket. No apologies.


Not all BLM land, only non-motorized access BLM land, which I would wager to say is a pretty small percentage overall. Wilderness Areas excepted as they don't allow bicycles either.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Whats lazy 250W pedal assist or 500+W fat **** trying to get motivation?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> The only difference is they are not on singletrack going uphill. The 2 major issues will always be 1) Ebikes threatening trail access as they are hard to differ from conventional and 2) Closing speeds. I personally think downhillers that chairlift exert less energy than ebikers. Not saying downhill runs are not fun, but at least with an ebike, you are pedaling uphill.


You guys are missing the obvious difference. Shuttles almost always exist where downhill-only trails exist. Riding a shuttle up to ride a downhill-only trail is much different than shuttling your local multi-use singletrack.

Also, putting your bike on a chairlift doesn't add a motor to your bike any more than sitting in a car makes you a bionic man.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Dave's got a nice rig and makes a beautiful motor, but I find it amusing that you think an ebike with a claimed 45mph top speed without pedalling is still a bike.


I find it disturbing that he doesn't comprehend the obvious difference..


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> Irony is posting in a thread discussing laziness while touting lift assisted motorbikes.


I think we're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe it's encouraging to see these motorcycle guys putting pedals on their motorcycles to add a bit more excercise to their rides.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Go race a moto on a motor cross track and check your heart rate when your done. Moto guys are not slouches, and IF they were who gives a rats ass. Are you Peter Sagan? Anybody that gets outdoors is exerting more energy than someone who does not. 

The REAL ebike arguments up for debate should be what I listed above. If you don't like "change" then start sending smoke signals instead of typing. Last I checked Ebikes are rolling in a lot faster than they are going out. I ride both and enjoy both for each own agenda. 
IM NOT FOR EBIKE POACHERS
IM NOT FOR CONVENTIONAL POACHERS. I AM FOR TRUMP!


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Sarcastic nonsense Pinocchio comments aside, I don’t think most eMTB riders are lazy. Most are just looking for a different enjoyable experience and/or need the assist to keep them in the game. Not having the ability to charge up a steep long hill does not mean that rider is lazy. The fact that he is out riding and not sitting on the couch watching his stomach grow indicates that. Pinocchio is my hero!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I personally think downhillers that chairlift exert less energy than ebikers.


All depends on the trails and the rider IME.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

eri said:


> ***snip****


See, it's all clear as mud!


Seriously, it varies wildly depending on exactly where you're standing. I really can't see why anyone would have a problem with E-bike use for some with a recognized disability under the ADA. I've been to some spinal cord injury trail events and you would have to be a incredible ******* to decide you want to deny those folks access to the trails. Personally, I'm all for allowing lots of leeway for those with disabilities. The numbers will always be a relative drop in the bucket, and it's the right thing to do.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm too lazy to use the "Subscribe" button so I'll just do this post instead. Yes e-biking is a lazy activity in the same sense that ride shuttles and chairlifts are "lazy". (Throw single speed vs. selective multiple-ratio gearing into the discussion may we?)

But as far as calories burned, not so lazy; e-bikes still can require considerable effort depending on what the rider is trying to accomplish. E-bikes don't automatically limit the amount of additional energy the rider wants to add via the pedals.

My own personal recent experience is that I'm expending more energy riding my e-moto-e-cargo bike (with a heavy load) than I would have if I was just pedaling the same route using my regular MTB sans the load. A lot to wrassle around in tight technical terrain.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Definition - A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two typically wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and usually having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals by which it is driven.

What is the problem here in understanding this?


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> I have nothing against motors. Enjoy them quite a bit.
> But bicycles don't have them. Adding one is not an 'evolution', it's a complete negation of one of the most fundamental aspects of the definition of 'bicycle'.


That sums it up nicely :thumbsup: As a former motorcycle owner, I'm all about having a motor...just don't try to call it a bicycle.


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## Ryder (Aug 20, 2004)

You felt the need to resurrect a 7 month old thread just to add that? Well done sir.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ryder said:


> You felt the need to resurrect a 7 month old thread just to add that? Well done sir.


7 months? Try 19 months!


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2018)

Ryder said:


> You felt the need to resurrect a 7 month old thread just to add that? Well done sir.


Yep


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

...


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Jim_bo said:


> ...


That's you're best post

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Post #45.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Post #45.


That's a good one too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

This gets your heart rate up too, hard to say your getting a good workout though.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

sfgiantsfan said:


> This gets your heart rate up too, hard to say your getting a good workout though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"No motor and no batteries" is what makes that device so apropos!


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2018)

Jim_bo said:


> ...


Why did you change your original post this morning?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

griz said:


> Why did you change your original post this morning?


He moved it to the other thread, which has now been closed.

The "..." replacement was far more intelligent and well thought out, though.


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