# Maybe Yamaha should be more popular?



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I only have 3 years on mountain bikes and fatbikes.
I am new to Ebikes.
Last dec. i bought a HT Haibike 2017 new (unsold) with Yamaha PW 250, 500 Wh and from what i read it has the best range for distance, the best range for gears(20S).
I see Specialized, Shimano and now Bosch investing million$ bragging about their low weight. 
If they had the best range they would not keep it a secret.
Ebikes NEED low gears because they are heavier and most want distance/range. 
Yamaha was first in Emotors.
Maybe their secret is they have 4 levels, Giant has 5(also Yamaha).
After my winter season on my fatbike i find this Ebike tough to beat.
It is probably not the most silent but it seems great to me in all other aspects. I get 4 hours of fun, no stress never close to draining the battery.
Is it possible many are buying the advertisement?


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

yes...


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

In terms of motor, yep you are correct, I also have a 2017 Haibike with the Yamaha, and in terms of torque/range, it beats the competition, and it is significantly quieter than the Bosh.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

33red said:


> I only have 3 years on mountain bikes and fatbikes.
> I am new to Ebikes.
> Last dec. i bought a HT Haibike 2017 new (unsold) with Yamaha PW 250, 500 Wh and from what i read it has the best range for distance, the best range for gears(20S).
> I see Specialized, Shimano and now Bosch investing million$ bragging about their low weight.
> ...


Yes but no. My PW-SE motor is very efficient and gets good range but there are two things about it I don't like, applicable only to trail riding. First, the ratchet on the pedals is course, leading to extra pedal strikes if the trail demands timing pedal engagement. Second, the torque drops off rapidly at high cadence; my style of spinning like a madman to gain momentum before an obstacle on a hill fails when I end up doing all the work. The PW-X motor has been slightly improved in both respects.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> Yes but no. My PW-SE motor is very efficient and gets good range but there are two things about it I don't like, applicable only to trail riding. First, the ratchet on the pedals is course, leading to extra pedal strikes if the trail demands timing pedal engagement. Second, the torque drops off rapidly at high cadence; my style of spinning like a madman to gain momentum before an obstacle on a hill fails when I end up doing all the work. The PW-X motor has been slightly improved in both respects.


I have no clue if i have the SE. 1 thing is certain i have instant engagement and i can ratchet. My arms are 175 mm a bit strange on a small frame. I hate pedal strikes so soon i expect to receive 165. It came with 40 mm rims, 27.5x3.0 and 3 days ago i swapped my rear to a 2.8 that i love and i look for a 2.8 front maybe used, a swap? This bike has 1 problem, the rider is not that good.
I was lucky, it is a good match for my use. I also recently put a pair of thin pedals. With a cut bar and a switched stem i still need to test 2 of my other saddles. It is becoming my main bike.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I recently test-rode a bike with a Yamaha drive. 
The negatives that stuck with me:
1. Loud gear whine. 
2. Narrow cadence range where assist was useful. 

I was sure after this ride that I would not buy a bike with this system.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

reamer41 said:


> I recently test-rode a bike with a Yamaha drive.
> The negatives that stuck with me:
> 1. Loud gear whine.
> 2. Narrow cadence range where assist was useful.
> ...


The gears after 2000 miles on my bike are much quieter than when new. I would still buy a Yamaha-powered bike, but I would make sure that I got the PW-X because the torque holds up a little longer and there's more torque; I rode a Giant Trance E+ pro on the trail and it was pretty good.

I think that the design trade-off made by Yamaha for the torque drop is increased range; the motor is operating in a high back-emf condition more of the time which means that more of the battery power is turning into mechanical power and less to heating the motor windings. People generally report good range on Yamaha relative to other brands.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> The gears after 2000 miles on my bike are much quieter than when new. I would still buy a Yamaha-powered bike, but I would make sure that I got the PW-X because the torque holds up a little longer and there's more torque; I rode a Giant Trance E+ pro on the trail and it was pretty good.
> 
> I think that the design trade-off made by Yamaha for the torque drop is increased range; the motor is operating in a high back-emf condition more of the time which means that more of the battery power is turning into mechanical power and less to heating the motor windings. People generally report good range on Yamaha relative to other brands.


Maybe that is it. Specialized is over price, Yamaha is for those who value range and it makes me happy. Go find 1 that makes you happy.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

craigsj said:


> A curious statement, not really wrong but misleading.
> 
> High "back-emf" limits the amount of current that can flow in the motor which lowers resistive losses and reduces heating in the windings. It also reduces power! Taken to the ultimate conclusion, enough emf would eliminate winding heating entirely, but the motor wouldn't work either.
> 
> Also, this manifests itself in power loss as cadence increases and that feels bad. If I want to conserve power I lower my assist level, but when I start cranking I want the motor there with me, not running out of steam due to lack of voltage.


Peak power on the PW-SE comes at 72 rpm; spinning up a hill at 90 rpm the motor feels like it's dropped off to no assistance. Running out of steam is a great way to describe it. I notice it most pulling out of a left hand turn at a traffic light where I have to cross three lanes and get out of the way of the cars behind me; I always have to do a couple of quick shifts. That's what I get for being a cheapskate and buying a closeout bike at a big discount.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

craigsj said:


> Yeah, I would not like that. Might be fine for others.


My bike isn't perfect but still lots of fun; I am eagerly awaiting the crack of dawn so I can go out for a ride 

The Yamaha PW-X is better; up to 90 RPM it produces more torque than Shimano e8000.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> My bike isn't perfect but still lots of fun; I am eagerly awaiting the crack of dawn so I can go out for a ride
> 
> The Yamaha PW-X is better; up to 90 RPM it produces more torque than Shimano e8000.


Can you rachet? 
I only know mine is on a 2017 Haibike and i am trying to know the exact one.
I read some have a delay like some manufacturers in power when they pedal, do you?
The link is to my bike, well if i clean it. It says PW system 25 km/h but mine goes to 32 km/h or 20 m/h wich is our legal limit in Quebec
https://winora-group.com/manuals/2017/specs/HAI_sduro_specs/HAI_SDURO_hardseven_60.pdf

When i demoed a Shimano 8000 the bar was much wider than mine and i did not know the trails so i was on eco mode therefore i cannot compare the power. I read mine has 4 sensors but i see the magnet for RPM, i know it reacts to pedal pressure, i have 4 modes of assist.
Thanks


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

hikerdave said:


> Peak power on the PW-SE comes at 72 rpm; spinning up a hill at 90 rpm the motor feels like it's dropped off to no assistance. Running out of steam is a great way to describe it. I notice it most pulling out of a left hand turn at a traffic light where I have to cross three lanes and get out of the way of the cars behind me; I always have to do a couple of quick shifts. That's what I get for being a cheapskate and buying a closeout bike at a big discount.


I wonder if that motor is made for mountain bike climbing or mountain biking, where cadence is relatively low. Does Yamaha's other motors on their road bikes exhibit the same power drop-off at high cadence?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

MikeDee said:


> I wonder if that motor is made for mountain bike climbing or mountain biking, where cadence is relatively low. Does Yamaha's other motors on their road bikes exhibit the same power drop-off at high cadence?


I think but i am not sure they can be programmed. The motor is a potential and by country, region some distributer set it legally and there are option selected. Mine on the retailer website said 25km max because it was copied from the french website. I new it would be 32 and it is. 10 min ago after my ride i looked under and a sticker says 2017, 32km, class A. So even if we buy **the same bike** it might not be **the same bike** because it will have been programmed differently after it was built but before it was sold.
Giant use Yamaha motor with their software and again i am not sure but i think their display and their battery.
Haibike uses some Yamaha and on other models uses Bosch.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

33red said:


> I think but i am not sure they can be programmed. The motor is a potential and by country, region some distributer set it legally and there are option selected. Mine on the retailer website said 25km max because it was copied from the french website. I new it would be 32 and it is. 10 min ago after my ride i looked under and a sticker says 2017, 32km, class A. So even if we buy **the same bike** it might not be **the same bike** because it will have been programmed differently after it was built but before it was sold.
> Giant use Yamaha motor with their software and again i am not sure but i think their display and their battery.
> Haibike uses some Yamaha and on other models uses Bosch.


Yes, I met the US rep for Yamaha at a bike demo; he said that the bike manufacturers program the controller the way they like. The Giant Trance E+1 pro, which I demoed at a different event, was more powerful than my Haibike SDURO and better in every way; I got off my bike and onto theirs and rode the same trails so it was a pretty good comparison. Slightly more power but no display; just some small LEDs on the mode switch to indicate assist and battery levels.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> Yes, I met the US rep for Yamaha at a bike demo; he said that the bike manufacturers program the controller the way they like. The Giant Trance E+1 pro, which I demoed at a different event, was more powerful than my Haibike SDURO and better in every way; I got off my bike and onto theirs and rode the same trails so it was a pretty good comparison. Slightly more power but no display; just some small LEDs on the mode switch to indicate assist and battery levels.


Than it might be proper to think that the ((Giant version)) might not have the range that we enjoy? I want to ride 4 hrs close to everyday and feel i am on a bike so i do not plan on a battery over 500Wh that would be heavier and more expensive. If i end up with a Giant i will switch the crazy 360% assist to 280%. The small or no display might be smart in case stuff happen in the trails. The tiny one on a Norco-Shimano i demoed was a non issue to me. Between the sound, vibrations, cadence, pressure on pedal and response we know without looking. Never checking my battery level is priceless.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

33red said:


> Than it might be proper to think that the ((Giant version)) might not have the range that we enjoy? I want to ride 4 hrs close to everyday and feel i am on a bike so i do not plan on a battery over 500Wh that would be heavier and more expensive. If i end up with a Giant i will switch the crazy 360% assist to 280%. The small or no display might be smart in case stuff happen in the trails. The tiny one on a Norco-Shimano i demoed was a non issue to me. Between the sound, vibrations, cadence, pressure on pedal and response we know without looking. Never checking my battery level is priceless.


The Giant probably still has good range; I doubt that they rewound the motor or changed its gearing but I think that our PW and PW-SE bikes are as good as it gets for motor efficiency.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

hikerdave said:


> The Giant probably still has good range; I doubt that they rewound the motor or changed its gearing but I think that our PW and PW-SE bikes are as good as it gets for motor efficiency.


Can you tell me wich is mine? I can ratchet, there is no delay in power. Thanks The problem is my shop sells Shimano, that unsold bike was 150 miles away, i spoke to them and their only guy who knows Yamaha is out for a month at least. At first they said there was no paper owner manual then they found them.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

33Red: If I recall correct, the 2017 Haibike Yamaha's featured the 500wh battery as their big technological advance here in the US market. Meanwhile, Europe was getting the 500wh battery and the PW-X drive system in their Haibike lineup. Link: https://sandiegoflyrides.com/review-2017-haibike-lineup/

If you have the bigger LCD display unit, this is a PW drive system. Haibike further separated the PW-X powered bikes from their PW-SE bikes by labeling as X-Duro. My 2016 model, PW drive Full FatSix is labeled S-Duro, as all of their Yamaha powered bikes were labeled up to model year 2018.....

A little confusing for sure, but here it is in a nutshell: 2016 models feature the PW drive and the bigger rectangular shaped display unit. Modeled as SDuro.

2017 featured the 500wh battery and are designated SDuro. Still has the larger display unit.

2018 brings on the PW-X and PW-SE both with the smaller lcd display unit. PW-X is put into the X-Duro lineup, while lesser powered drives featuring PW-SE are still in the S-Duro line.....


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Here is a link to their service manuals, taken from their website. You might be able to find yours in here: https://winora-group.com/de/manuals/


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