# .....really? pulled over.



## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

Edit: Moral of the story: Don't treat a red light as a stop sign in PA. I was wrong, and ignorant of the law. I know the law now and will not break it again. Read on if you please 

My commute home from work is about two miles long, and all down hill. In the two miles, there are five traffic lights. The lights are incredibly worthless at night, and do nothing except stop the flow of traffic and waste time. The lights really should just be turned off from 9pm to 6am.
On my way home tonight, I pedaled through one red light. I slowed to make sure no cars were coming, (there never are anyway), and went on through. I was under the assumption that cyclists were permitted to treat a red light as a stop sign. Apparently, I was mistaken.

Half a mile later, a police car turns on his lights and shoots in front of me, parking half way on the sidewalk. The officer gets out of his car and shouts "So what, you don't think you have to obey the rules of the road? Think you can just blow through red lights? Is it gona mess up you 'pace' to stop?" I explained to him that I had read it was permissible for a cyclist to use a traffic signal as a stop sign.
"Ohhh that's what ya read did you? Well were'd you read that?"
"I can't remember" I said
"Oh so you can't remember. So which one is it? You can't remember or you read it?"
"I read it somewhere."
"Well were did you read it?"
I told him again that I couldn't remember. The conversation continued like this for at least one more 'where?' 'cant remember.' cycle. He then proceeded to tell me that if I did it again I would be fined $110 and get points on my drivers licence.

That's $110 AND points on my drivers licence. :madman: For riding a bike. He then said "And if you want to doubt me, I'll give you the fine and ticket right now." I said I didn't doubt him.
But here's the PA bike code.

Section 3502. Penalty for violation of subchapter.
Any person violating any provision of this subchapter is guilty of a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of $10.

$10 is a little weee bit less severe. 
But I was also wrong. A bike is subject to the same rules as a car in PA. Which I think is ridiculous, but I guess I'll have to follow the law until its changed. I just do not think the police man had to be such a jerk about it.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Wait, what??
You blow through red lights and are surprised you got pulled??And angry?
you also said, "I pedaled through one red light. I slowed to make sure no cars were coming" then went on to say "I had read it was permissible for a cyclist to use a traffic signal as a stop sign."
How is that even treating the light like a STOP sign!!?

Bikers like you piss me off and give other cyclists a bad name.

And this, "I just do not think the po po man had to be such a jerk about it." from this? "He then proceeded to tell me that if I did it again I would be fined $110 and get points on my drivers licence."

Sounds like he was being cool to me


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

It is legal in some states, though apparently PA isn't one of them. Not sure if the lights on your route are on a timer or a loop? If they're on a loop and your bike frame is steel, look for the seam in the pavement and try stopping over it. This may still not be enough though. I'll usually just pedal over to the crosswalk button and press it to get the light to change. Alternately, you could try mapping a route that avoids most or all intersections with streetlights?


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## Brewboy74 (Mar 6, 2005)

Please consider that if we as cyclists would like to be treated with respect on the road that we must follow all rules of the road as if we are a vehicle. My daily commute takes into the center of city of 110,000. I demand to be treated like a car by acting like one, which most definately means stopping at all stop lights and stop signs. It does sound like the cop was a bit of a tool and for that I am sorry.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> Wait, what??
> You blow through red lights and are surprised you got pulled??And angry?
> you also said, "I pedaled through one red light. I slowed to make sure no cars were coming" then went on to say "I had read it was permissible for a cyclist to use a traffic signal as a stop sign."
> How is that even treating the light like a STOP sign!!?
> ...


He wasn't being cool. At all. He was really not very nice about it. I was unaware of the law, and if you read my post, I said I'm going to follow the law from now on. But it was insane of him to threaten me with a $110 dollar fine and points on my license when the fine is actually $10. So yes, I was a little perturbed. 
And I did not blow through the light.
But the officer essentially wanted me to stop and wait in line behind other cars at the bottom of a steep hill. That is a recipe for getting crushed under 4000 pounds of rolling death.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

the munts said:


> He wasn't being cool. At all. He was really not very nice about it. I was unaware of the law, and if you read my post, I said I'm going to follow the law from now on. But it was insane of him to threaten me with a $110 dollar fine and points on my license when the fine is actually $10. So yes, I was a little perturbed.
> And I did not blow through the light.
> But the officer essentially wanted me to stop and wait in line behind other cars at the bottom of a steep hill. That is a recipe for getting crushed under 4000 pounds of rolling death.


Well, since he let you off with a warning, I think that's 'cool'.

I think that its awesome that you learned something and are going to follow the rules of the road from now on :thumbsup:

$110 and points on your record for running a red light is not out of the ordinary.

How did you not blow through the light?...by your own admission you said "I *slowed *to make sure no cars were coming, (there never are anyway), and went on through."

You don't have to stop behind a line of cars. You can go right up to the limit line on the right-hand side and wait there.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

You should read more about commuting. You're really not all that good at it. You need to ride defensively and as a vehicle. Wait at the lights. That's life. If it is a light that you know uses a magnetic sensor and your bike does not trip it, stop, check the intersection, then go. If you get pulled over for that, just explain that you crossed as safely as a vehicle good and be calm. If you come to a complete stop it's not a big deal. The law in WI is that you have to wait 45 seconds before you can run a red if you think you have not tripped the sensor. I never wait that long, but I do know what lights I can trip and which I cannot.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

I was calm. And I understand I was wrong. But I don't need to "read more about commuting." Saying that I'm not very good at it is a pretty large assumption. I've done a fair amount of it. But ok. 
I do however need to read more about my area's laws. And carry a printed copy of at least the part about fines, just in case, since my local police force seems a bit confused.
The sad part is, if a state trooper would have pulled me over, he likely would have been polite and professional when he told me what I did wrong. The guy that did pull me over was just harassing me.



> "I slowed to make sure no cars were coming, (there never are anyway), and went on through."


I was crawling. Almost a trackstand. Nothing that could be considered blowing through by any standard.


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## ash240 (Jun 2, 2007)

I agree with the OP. 
The Cop should have given him a big bunch of roses and thanked the OP for giving him the chance to meet and discuss these issues.

OP, YOU did the wrong thing, acted silly and assumed.

The Cop did the right thing, he made the point in a way that sunk in and was VERY nice not to book you for being so silly. I would also not be so sure his opinion of what you would be booked with was incorrect. 

As for the rubbish about waiting in that location, crushed bla bla bla. That's just idiotic justification for you being stupid.

Do the wrong thing and expect to pay for it.


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

Thanks for the lecture.

This is obviously one of those subjects like politics and religion that could go on forever, but it pisses me off when using one's own common sense to stay out of harms way isn't enough and we need people like you and militant cops to tell us how to behave.

One of the reasons I ride a bike is to allow myself some breathing room from the law, and still have some fun to and from work. All the while looking after my own back.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> The Cop should have given him a big bunch of roses and thanked the OP for giving him the chance to meet and discuss these issues.


Thats not what I meant. Being pulled over left a big enough impression by itself. I was not putting myself or anyone else in any danger. I was absolutly sure no car was coming either way when I crossed that street. I just think that a police officer should act like a professional, not like a drill sergeant.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

ash240 said:


> I agree with the OP.
> The Cop should have given him a big bunch of roses and thanked the OP for giving him the chance to meet and discuss these issues.
> 
> OP, YOU did the wrong thing, acted silly and assumed.
> ...


Seconded. I was grateful for a stern warning when I was pulled over for rolling through a flashing red light early one morning. You can't blame the cop for doing his job.


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

He probably was a drill sergeant!

Hell, if I'm at a light in the middle of the night in a car and nobodys around I'll drive through it. Let common sense rule your life, not the law.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> Let common sense rule your life, not the law.


I'm glad someone finally got what I was saying. The whole incident was really unneeded. . That said, the local force is not going to change, so I'll have to watch myself from now on.


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## sfuller (Jan 14, 2007)

highdelll said:


> You don't have to stop behind a line of cars. You can go right up to the limit line on the right-hand side and wait there.


You don't have to, but this is a good way to possibly get right hooked, even IF there's a bike lane there that makes this legal. Personally, I'll sit behind the line of cars and be seen.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

"Personally, I'll sit behind the line of cars and be seen." - By who?
OK...I ride up to the front and be seen - I make sure I'm slightly ahead of the car (in their view) to my left at a red light. When the light goes green, I'm outta there and then I don't have a line of cars that I have to discern what they're going to do (go straight/ turn right).
YMMV


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## Solomon76 (Jul 22, 2008)

I never understood why someone would get points taken from their driver's license for breaking the law on a bicycle when you don't need a driver's license to ride a bicycle. I understand the fine because there has to be some type of punishment for breaking the law, but if someone gets enough points against their license it will be suspended and they will be forced to ride a bike anyway (kind of ironic). What if someone doesn't have a license in the first place (maybe the reason that they are riding a bike)?


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## Yukon-RSX (Feb 6, 2007)

In the UK I have seen countless bike riders jump red lights on the way to work, and it's only a matter of time before they become road kill. Especially since the junction it happens at is right next to a busy lorry section.


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## harpdog (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm thinking the cop was quoting the "fine" based on the court costs and administrative fees that are added to traffic cases. These alone add up to about $100 where I live.The state gets the fine, and the local court gets the rest, to pay for their costs, as well as some going back to the municipality. Most of these costs apply even if you pay the fine without appearing in court, since the court system is still processing a case. He was ballparking what it would cost you if he wrote the ticket.


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## nepbug (Sep 3, 2004)

I always like how in threads like this you know there will always be a bunch of people that come along with their "I am correct all the time, you're an idiot" attitudes.

You broke the law, you know it, we know it, the cop knew it. That doesn't change the fact that the police officer did a maneuver that endangered you (pulling in front of you forcing you to stop) and then proceeded to go on an immediate tirade without any provocation on your part. 

If you were in a car I guarantee the cop wouldn't have swerved in front of you and stopped and wouldn't have come out yelling about how you think you don't need to follow the rules. He obviously had a chip on his shoulder about something.

So, I agree with you, the police officer was not professional about it all.


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## JoshS (Jan 7, 2004)

At the college i went to ( the famous picture of a corvette pulled over by a bicycle cop) if you went through a stop sign on campus, you got a $220 fine and points. it was annoying because the cops would hide, but mainly tuesdays or wensdays you knew not to roll by a few signs on campus. the annoying part was they would pull you over even if you were going the opposite way on a one way street with sholders (bike lanes) on both sides.


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## JunkShip (Apr 23, 2009)

Heh. Debating the law with a police officer.... that never works out. Trying to rationalize their behavior is useless.

As for the laws in general, I will go out of my way to abide by the traffic laws. Maybe it's just me, but it seems auto drivers become more agressive and less observent (and rational) every day. And bikes operating outside the law seems to be a hot button for them.


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## ttper (Aug 29, 2008)

Why would you get the points on your drivers license? You were not driving.
Is it required to have a valid drivers license in PA to ride a bike on the road? 
What if you didn't show your drivers license but other id?


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

the cop was cool for not giving you a ticket, but he wasn't cool with how he handled it. to each their own. some people are nice and constructive in the world and some aren't- same goes for cops. sounds like a bit of a power trip to me; however, i'm sure he does run into jerks all the time and can understand a consistent stance he takes with everyone.

i wonder if he would do the same thing if someone was walking and their wasn't a crosswalk with signals.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

*That asshat*

Hell, if it's only $10 i'd continue blowing street lights if it's safe to cross. Who cares, really? It's the intent of the law not the letter you need to follow. Just look both ways and make sure they're no cops around. There are a lot of by the book geeks around here but im not one. The laws really need to be changed for non-motorized traffic. * I think im smart enough to know when to its safe to cross and when it's not. I dont need a law or some stupid light to tell me when to go.*


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

AC/BC said:


> * I think im smart enough to know when to its safe to cross and when it's not. I dont need a law or some stupid light to tell me when to go.*


I bet that's exactly what my acquaintance thought just before he got hit by the car and died when running a red light. Some day it might be you. It is better to be cautious than dead. Mistakes happen.


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## EvilScience (Jul 16, 2004)

AC/BC said:


> Hell, if it's only $10 i'd continue blowing street lights if it's safe to cross. Who cares, really? It's the intent of the law not the letter you need to follow. Just look both ways and make sure they're no cops around. There are a lot of by the book geeks around here but im not one. The laws really need to be changed for non-motorized traffic. * I think im smart enough to know when to its safe to cross and when it's not. I dont need a law or some stupid light to tell me when to go.*


I appreciate where you're coming from, but one interpretation of the cops overreaction to the OP is the prevalance of law-breaking cyclists they see on a daily basis. I commute by bike daily, and ~ 75% of other cyclists run lights, stop signs, weave through traffic, and just generally make nuisances of themselves. When I am driving, its actually pretty frustrating/scary, and so as a cyclist I really do stay within the rules. We expect it of cars (and who likes pedestrians throwing themselves in front of you when driving?), so why not other vehicles on the road? There have been numerous threads recently discussing the dangers/a$$hattery of fixie riders - this is no different, just another cyclist who feels the law doesn't apply to him/her. Maybe the law should be changed, but until then, if we want to be treated with respect on the road, I think we should act accordingly.


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## EvilScience (Jul 16, 2004)

Schmucker said:


> I bet that's exactly what my acquaintance thought just before he got hit by the car and died when running a red light. Some day it might be you. It is better to be cautious than dead.


And there's the other important point (condolences on your friend..). It's a little like driving after a few beers - sure you think you're ok....


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## Black Bart (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm no lawyer, but I can't figure out how you've applied Section 3502 of Chapter 35, subchapter A to your situation. I'm seeing nothing in 35/A laying out different responsibilities for bicycles regarding stop lights or signs.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

EvilScience said:


> And there's the other important point (condolences on your friend..). It's a little like driving after a few beers - sure you think you're ok....


My condolences as well.
Just to add though, If you mess-up in your car, and run a light for instance, and get T-boned at a nominal 25 mph. You'll likely come out unscathed (yes, I know it's not 100%), whereas, you get hit in the same manner on a bike, the odds ain't so great - helmet or not.

"It's a risky world that we live in. And the landscape of risk is constantly changing,"


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## PscyclePath (Aug 29, 2007)

Gary the No-Trash Cougar said:


> It is legal in some states, though apparently PA isn't one of them.


Idaho is the only state which allows cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs. If you ain't riding in Idaho, then those 8-sided red & white signs mean stop. Red lights mean stop, and don't go until the light turns green again.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

PscyclePath said:


> Idaho is the only state which allows cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs. If you ain't riding in Idaho, then those 8-sided red & white signs mean stop. Red lights mean stop, and don't go until the light turns green again.


I know other states have considered the same idea, so here's an article from SF Examiner about it affecting CA.

When it comes to non-timed lights (ie. sensor operated), I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a cop to cite you after coming to a complete stop at a 'red' and waiting for a bit, then after it's apparent that the light will not trigger, to proceed with caution. In fact, I believe there's a sub-section in the CVC that addresses this - The code is massive so I can't find it easily right now (I may even be wrong).


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

^^
Indiana allows motorcycles to continue through a red light they do not trip, but only after stopping first. This is not the same thing as a yield sign. I'm also not sure if it applies to bicycles or not. The written law is unclear.

It seems reasonable to me, that one could make a complete stop at a red light, then go if the light won't trip and the intersection is clear. I think pushing the cross walk button is the best way, if there is one.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

emtnate said:


> ...It seems reasonable to me, that one could make a complete stop at a red light, then go if the light won't trip and the intersection is clear. * I think pushing the cross walk button is the best way, if there is one*.


Agreed, but many/ most _overall_ (as I'm sure y'all know) loop/ sensors are w/out ped signals.

*no arguing - just expounding


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Good To Know*



Schmucker said:


> The law in WI is that you have to wait 45 seconds before you can run a red if you think you have not tripped the sensor. I never wait that long, but I do know what lights I can trip and which I cannot.


I've waited more than 5 minutes at lights until a car finally came along to trip it.


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## mjwood0 (May 24, 2004)

Solomon76 said:


> I never understood why someone would get points taken from their driver's license for breaking the law on a bicycle when you don't need a driver's license to ride a bicycle.


This threat is really funny to me. I can't imagine how they could enforce something like this as the main reason a lot of people ride bikes is because they can't (for one reason or another) or won't get a drivers license.



nepbug said:


> You broke the law, you know it, we know it, the cop knew it. That doesn't change the fact that the police officer did a maneuver that endangered you (pulling in front of you forcing you to stop) and then proceeded to go on an immediate tirade without any provocation on your part.


There is no excuse for a police officer to act unprofessionally even if running the red light wasn't the most professional move on your part. I would have asked for his badge number (or just read it off the badge) and written a letter to the town. I've done it before and will happily do it again.

We (the taxpayers) pay for the police to protect us and enforce the laws. This means that we should expect them to pull us over when we break the laws, but should also expect to be treated with professional respect. Cops are people too -- they aren't above of below the average citizen.

Overall, it sounds like you learned your lesson and are doing the right thing by researching the laws. Being better informed can't hurt anything.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

nepbug said:


> I... That doesn't change the fact that the police officer did a maneuver that endangered you (*pulling in front of you forcing you to stop*) ...


Totally typical... It's easier/ safer to pull over a cyclist by pulling ahead and waving them over.
Quote:"Half a mile later, a police car turns on his lights and shoots in front of me, parking half way on the sidewalk. The officer gets out of his car and shouts..."
I'm sorry, but that's how you have to stop a cyclist sometimes... not many people have mirrors on their bikes.
I'm, speaking from experience.

Ask me why my bike got dismantled because I was suspicious. (wearing a backpack at night) - trust me ... I'd be angry too!

But that's how you are to pull people on bikes...............................


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Be glad you*

didnt end up in the hospital running those red lights


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## PscyclePath (Aug 29, 2007)

highdelll said:


> I know other states have considered the same idea, so here's an article from SF Examiner about it affecting CA.


Oklahoma, Oregon, and Arizona have proposed what's know as the "Idaho Stop" during their current legislative sessions; in all three cases the bills died in committee. So Idaho will remain a lonely example for at least another year or two.


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## mike_d_1583 (Feb 12, 2008)

Schmucker said:


> It is better to be cautious than dead.


In this world, it would be better to be dead. Everythings going to hell anyway, give it 5 years for humans to destroy the world.


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## KeylessChuck (Apr 15, 2006)

Come on people, if you can't trust your own eyesight enough to see if anyone is coming then maybe you shouldn't be on the streets in the first place. How is it that you are willing to put your life in the hands of some lights at an intersection over your own discretion?

This is a very sad thead for me.

I can understand setting a good example and trying to work towards a better relationship with motorists, but letting an idiot electronic circuit make your decisions for you when there is no one else around is insane!


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## illchilla09 (Apr 4, 2009)

I couldn't agree more.Aren't we policed enough people?The reason I decided to start mountain biking was partially because of the harassment I received for motocross riding.I think if I ever got pulled over for running a red light on a bike I would have a heart attack.I see police making turns without using directionals,rolling through stop signs,etc on a regular basis.I just had a woman cop not stop for me in a crosswalk(I was half way across the street) while talking and laughing on her cell phone while in the cruiser.Who gives her the ticket?The problem is cops are doing the same exact things themselves that they are giving others tickets for.Possibly it is the police that need to be policed a little.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I always try to obey the law while riding a bike but I have to say, if I was riding home at night and no one was around at a red light and I had stopped....I'd do a quick scan and then ride on. I really can't see myself sitting there until it changed 5 minutes later.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Hey then dont*



KeylessChuck said:


> Come on people, if you can't trust your own eyesight enough to see if anyone is coming then maybe you shouldn't be on the streets in the first place. How is it that you are willing to put your life in the hands of some lights at an intersection over your own discretion?
> 
> This is a very sad thead for me.
> 
> I can understand setting a good example and trying to work towards a better relationship with motorists, but letting an idiot electronic circuit make your decisions for you when there is no one else around is insane!


thats your choice..


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

Can you cross in crosswalks?


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> I can understand setting a good example and trying to work towards a better relationship with motorists, but letting an idiot electronic circuit make your decisions for you when there is no one else around is insane!


I agree 100%
And I doubt that there is anyone who has posted here that has not run a red light while on a bike at some point. Kids on BMXs do it, groups of roadies do it, and commuters do it. That doesn't make it safe, but the fact is, sometimes it is safe to cross. There are times that no cars are coming the other way, and no amount of red light is going to make them come.
But its still against the law (which I really think should be changed)


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## Nithius (Feb 28, 2009)

Riding through red lights when no one is around is my way of sticking it to the man.


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## chewymilk99 (Nov 26, 2008)

What part of PA do you live in (I'm outside of Philly) I want to make sure I don't ever go to that town. If it employes over active douches like that for cops (and shut up I'm not bashing cops) I want to make it a point of never buying anything there.

In PA bikes are considered "vehicles" If you get pulled over drunk riding. You will get a DUI (and you should) 
If you blow a red light in a car. You can not have points added to your license. 
If you T-boned a buss filled with nuns (after blowing a red light) you would get a ticket for reckless driving. Not the red light.
The two exceptions are Philladelphia and Pittsburg. These are right now the only places with redlight cameras.

Remember, in PA we have a no-fault rule about accidents and traffic fines. If this ever happens again, just calmly (you may be being videotaped) tell the officer to give you the ticket and you and him can argue it out in court.
I had an officer try to give me a ticket for not having a light. It is not against the law, in any way to not have a light or reflectors on your bike.
The judge laughed when he read the docket, and basically ripped the cop a new one for wasting tax payer money. 


Now all that being said you really shouldn't blow through red lights. It really is unsafe. You really don't know what drunk moron is coming the other way. 
If you are in Philly they have jaywalking rules so you can't just get off and walk. 
If there are no push buttons to change the lights (which means no cross walk signs) Then you can go through it. After stopping.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Nithius said:


> Riding through red lights when no one is around is my way of sticking it to the man.


Yeah!!.... 'Cept this time the man was around,,,....


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## ghettorider (Mar 24, 2009)

So much "holier than thou" high horse riding going on in this thread. I blow through 10 stop signs coming back from school daily (they are not intersections though, they seem to have been put there to annoy motorists). If a cop tries to "pull me over" he'll be SOL because I'm not stopping for him.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> What part of PA do you live in (I'm outside of Philly) I want to make sure I don't ever go to that town. If it employes over active douches like that for cops (and shut up I'm not bashing cops) I want to make it a point of never buying anything there.


I'm just outside of Pittsburgh. My town is full of potholes, roads without shoulders, ******** in big trucks, and evidently, police who can't find any real crimes to prevent. Its good fun trying to commute on a bike here.

I just though this was funny. Pulled directly from my town's police department website: 
"... we are committed to making sure that every citizen we interact with is treated with dignity, compassion and a sense of professionalism."


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

KeylessChuck said:


> Come on people, if you can't trust your own eyesight enough to see if anyone is coming then maybe you shouldn't be on the streets in the first place. How is it that you are willing to put your life in the hands of some lights at an intersection over your own discretion?
> 
> This is a very sad thead for me.
> 
> I can understand setting a good example and trying to work towards a better relationship with motorists, but letting an idiot electronic circuit make your decisions for you when there is no one else around is insane!


I agree with you completely Chuck, however Mr Police Man does not agree with us and will issue a citation. That's money I could be spending on cheeseburgers.


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

OK, ghettorider, I'll come watch your trial for multiple traffic infractions, felony evading, and whatever else they slap on you WHEN they put you over the hood of a cruiser.

Holier-than-thou...hmmmmmmmmmmm. HERE'S a thought -- sure, there are stupid laws out there, but sorry folks, you don't get to decide which laws you obey and which you don't. It's the admission price for this little BS parade called civilized society. When someone else decides red lights are stupid, runs one, and turns you into street grease, hey...what they think is more important, right? Wait, you're dead, I'll ask your LADY.


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## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh, forgot -- emtnate, my dude! There's a bill in the IN G.A. right now that will enable cyclists to do just that, Senate Bill 553. Check it out!


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## ghettorider (Mar 24, 2009)

bigpedaler said:


> OK, ghettorider, I'll come watch your trial for multiple traffic infractions, felony evading, and whatever else they slap on you WHEN they put you over the hood of a cruiser.
> 
> Holier-than-thou...hmmmmmmmmmmm. HERE'S a thought -- sure, there are stupid laws out there, but sorry folks, you don't get to decide which laws you obey and which you don't. It's the admission price for this little BS parade called civilized society. When someone else decides red lights are stupid, runs one, and turns you into street grease, hey...what they think is more important, right? Wait, you're dead, I'll ask your LADY.


Obeying traffic laws does not in any shape or form guarantee me that I won't end up as a stain on the pavement and conversely breaking laws does not necessarily put me in the way of bodily harm. Case in point, on a 20 mile ride I would say about 10 or so drivers pull out way too quickly without looking both ways, which would result in my untimely demise were I not to ride defensively and yield to those who do not aknowledge me. On the other hand if a police officer decides to pull me over and make an example of me over some technicality, e.g. using judgement and violating a law in a manner that doesn't affect anyone, well it's time he will waste because he obviously can't cross terrain as effectively as a single tracked vehicle. 

BTW, there are ALWAYS stupid and unjust laws, because lawmakers do not have the same varied background that the people who have to follow those laws do. I mean at one time it was illegal for women to vote in elections, wasn't it?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

bigpedaler said:


> OK, ghettorider, I'll come watch your trial for multiple traffic infractions, felony evading, and whatever else they slap on you WHEN they put you over the hood of a cruiser.
> 
> Holier-than-thou...hmmmmmmmmmmm. HERE'S a thought -- sure, there are stupid laws out there, but sorry folks, you don't get to decide which laws you obey and which you don't. It's the admission price for this little BS parade called civilized society. When someone else decides red lights are stupid, runs one, and turns you into street grease, hey...what they think is more important, right? Wait, you're dead, I'll ask your LADY.


:I don't know how to make an applause emoticon, but it would go in here:


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

highdelll said:


> :I don't know how to make an applause emoticon, but it would go in here:


Why........just wondering do you obey all the "stupid" laws?

I'm going to take a tangent here.........but bikers who run stop signs and run red lights "piss you off and give bikers a bad name," are equivalent to pot heads who play disc golf. They piss me off and give the sport a bad name.

From the SNL skit........Seriously?!!? Really, seriously!!??

Some people here think to highly of themselves.


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## illchilla09 (Apr 4, 2009)

Nice job 88Rex! I don't know how to make an applause emoticon, but it would put it HERE


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

88 rex said:


> ... bikers who run stop signs and run red lights "piss you off and give bikers a bad name," are equivalent to pot heads who play disc golf. They piss me off and give the sport a bad name.


Seriously?!!? Really, seriously!!??

wait...
Seriously?!!? Really, seriously!!??

you are really reachin' dood

You wanna compare running red lights to smokin' pot?
and furthermore, when have I ever said that I 'smoked pot'?

that's pretty libelous man.


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## split.therapy (Apr 27, 2008)

PscyclePath said:


> Idaho is the only state which allows cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs. If you ain't riding in Idaho, then those 8-sided red & white signs mean stop. Red lights mean stop, and don't go until the light turns green again.


I love living in Idaho  . :yesnod: :cornut:

Maybe the PO's purpose behind the tongue lashing :nono: was to get the point across since he didn't write the ticket :thumbsup: .


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

highdelll said:


> you are really reachin' dood
> 
> You wanna compare running red lights to smokin' pot?
> and furthermore, when have I ever said that I 'smoked pot'?
> ...


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=511497



highdelll said:


> Oops just saw your post...
> yeah ... disc golf = frisbee golf
> the reason it's not called 'frisbee' golf (at least on tournament level play) is because that name is trademarked by Wham-O
> Super fun - I love it!!
> very herb friendly too




You gotta love the interweb. Seriously.

Loves disc golf......has the screenname HIGHdelll........If it walks like a duck......

That's not being "libelous." It's my point to point out that you are a merely a huge hypocrit in this thread.

I think the bible phrased this best;

Luke 6:41-42

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


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## donalson (Apr 13, 2004)

JunkShip said:


> Heh. Debating the law with a police officer.... that never works out. Trying to rationalize their behavior is useless.


yup no point... cops are NOT lawyers... they typically have a very rudimentary understanding of the law... thats what lawyers are for... sadly I had the learn the hard way on that one... almost $1500 in fines and 10 days in jail (which has cost me 4 or 5 good jobs nwo) all for a charge that i plead no contest to because I assumed the cop knew what the hell he was talking about and I assumed the legal system would work (all very bad decisions) instead of consulting with a lawyer.

on a side note... it's their game... you gota play it their way... lawyers are all part of their game :-/...


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

88 rex said:


> You gotta love the interweb. "


UH MAH GAWD
that's funny, you went and did a search for all my posts and came up w/ bupkiss!
Nice try man :thumbsup:

FWIW, Smokin reefer doesn't kill people - but running red lights does - since we're going off on extreme tangents and baseless comparisons.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

ALSO @ 88 Rex... you must be an 88 year old tyrannosaur .
I love your logic man 

How am I a hypocrit*e* BTW?


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

highdelll said:


> FWIW, Smokin reefer doesn't kill people - but running red lights does - since we're going off on extreme tangents and baseless comparisons.


How about smoking weed AND running red lights........now that's a recipe!:thumbsup:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Here goes: I sped. I followed too closely. I ran a stop sign. I almost hit a Chevy. I sped some more. I failed to yield at a crosswalk. I changed lanes at the intersection. I changed lanes without signaling while running a red light and speeeding!


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## j e SS e (Dec 24, 2007)

If you want the same rights and respect on the road as cars, you have to follow the same rules as cars. 

There are no special permissions in an equal-rights environment.


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

highdelll said:


> ALSO @ 88 Rex... you must be an 88 year old tyrannosaur .
> I love your logic man
> 
> How am I a hypocrit*e* BTW?


Come on highdelll is wasn't much of a stretch to put your screenname and tag together


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

Flystagg said:


> Come on highdelll is wasn't much of a stretch to put your screenname and tag together


I don't mind if people want to associate one with the other, I just don't see how that makes me a hypocrite.


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## Black Bart (Apr 19, 2004)

j e SS e said:


> If you want the same rights and respect on the road as cars, you have to follow the same rules as cars.
> 
> There are no special permissions in an equal-rights environment.


That argument is pointless until cars start following the law.

The road is not an equal rights "environment", bikes are not covered by many laws and regulations governing motor vehicle use. My following the rules will not earn respect from a driver who is ignorant of the law and a cyclists right to the road (the "bikes are toys that don't belong in the road line of thinking). Bikes (and pedestrians) DO have rights that motor vehicles do not.

A motor vehicle is a deadly weapon, must be registered, insured and operated by a licensed driver. It's very use damages the environment and health of those around it and kills innocent people every year by the tens of thousands. The infrastructure required for their use (roads, parking, runoff mitigation, etc) has a cost well above the tax revenue generated by them.

Now that you got me thinking, how about all car drivers get their s#!t together, stop breaking the laws and killing people? If not we should just stop letting them use our roads. :thumbsup:


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

Wow, this thread is totally turning into a reality TV series. New episode of ".....really? pulled over." Sunday night, 9pm on VH1. 

Can we all agree to disagree, or are we just bored and killing time?

I understand the concern with following the rules of the road and getting creamed anyway, but here's something you can try that seems to work for me; ride as if you were invisible. We follow the rules of the road and expect people in cars to do the same, but we get mad when they don't and endanger us. This is the assumption that kills. Ultimately you have to look out for yourself and ride as if motorists can't see you, ride defensively!


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## ghettorider (Mar 24, 2009)

highdelll said:


> FWIW, Smokin reefer doesn't kill people - but running red lights does - since we're going off on extreme tangents and baseless comparisons.


Sure it does, hundreds of people suffer and die over the wars for dominance that the criminal bodies which produce said reefer wage, both abroad and right here in the US.


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## harry2110 (Oct 18, 2008)

Solomon76 said:


> I never understood why someone would get points taken from their driver's license for breaking the law on a bicycle when you don't need a driver's license to ride a bicycle. I understand the fine because there has to be some type of punishment for breaking the law, but if someone gets enough points against their license it will be suspended and they will be forced to ride a bike anyway (kind of ironic). What if someone doesn't have a license in the first place (maybe the reason that they are riding a bike)?


I am also wondering what would happen as I cant get a license because of my vision.


ttper said:


> Why would you get the points on your drivers license? You were not driving.
> Is it required to have a valid drivers license in PA to ride a bike on the road?
> What if you didn't show your drivers license but other id?


Actually this would go against all notion that you should ride a bike on a sidewalk as its dangerous to people. Also some roads dont have side walks and then you have to ride on the road.


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## ProfGumby (Feb 27, 2008)

Maybe the Cop had to scrape up what was left of a rider who blew a red light recently and he was a little tightly wound?

Cyclist do a LOT of stupid things, from kids to geezers, we have all seen some idiotic stuff come from the operator of a cycle....just today I watched a roadie totally blow a stop sign. I am sure he assumed the car that was starting across the intersection made it okay for him to come up alongside and pass. But what if that car turned right? Or what if someone ran the intersection from his right? I have seen this guy do stuff like this before. I think he thinks he is Lance Armstrong.


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## Fuelish (Dec 19, 2003)

Brewboy74 said:


> Please consider that if we as cyclists would like to be treated with respect on the road that we must follow all rules of the road as if we are a vehicle. My daily commute takes into the center of city of 110,000. I demand to be treated like a car by acting like one, which most definately means stopping at all stop lights and stop signs. It does sound like the cop was a bit of a tool and for that I am sorry.


Agreed ...... although, even if it came to aticketable offense, I'd like to think there's no way they could give you points against your driver's license, as no license is required to ride a bike, just have to obey all traffic laws. I used to work night shift in MI, and felt like an idiot a lot of times waiting for a red light to change, but .... the local cops were richards, and I am too old to be fightin' with the law


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## RCdropper (Jun 1, 2009)

If U-turns are legal in your state just make a right, flip a U and make another right. Cars/motorcycles did this all the time when I lived in FL.


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## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

That still counts as running the red.


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## RCdropper (Jun 1, 2009)

Yea but at least you made an effort.


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## sturmruger (Mar 6, 2008)

**** the police!:madmax:


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## giant fan (Jun 5, 2009)

I was pulled over for riding the wrong way down a one way street when i was a kid; never understood why. now i live in oxford uk and see how many people on bikes blow lights and for every smart rider who knows what he's doing there's an idiot or two who doesn't. The police can't tell the difference; still sounds heavy handed though. :nono:


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## MassRider413 (Mar 21, 2009)

i honestly dont think u did anything wrong. you stopped, checked for cars and went on safely down the street not disturbing anyone. i think a lot of you are a little up tight @$$**** lol


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## ChromedToast (Sep 19, 2006)

Brewboy74 said:


> Please consider that if we as cyclists would like to be treated with respect on the road that we must follow all rules of the road as if we are a vehicle. My daily commute takes into the center of city of 110,000. I demand to be treated like a car by acting like one, which most definately means stopping at all stop lights and stop signs. It does sound like the cop was a bit of a tool and for that I am sorry.


Just yesterday I was driving down a small highway that has a clean and wide bike lane and "single file only" signs, come around a corner give a polite hoot to the guys riding two abreast, no response so I pass them, by law giving them 3 feet which put me fully into the oncoming lane. The next guy is single file, but weaving in and out of the bike lane, again I honk, this time the guy gives me a middle finger and damn near wrecks in front of me.

People like the OP and the guys from yesterday make me want road biking banned, the whole summer I drive in fear of hitting one of these idiots and getting thrown in jail.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

_i honestly dont think u did anything wrong. you stopped, checked for cars and went on safely down the street not disturbing anyone. i think a lot of you are a little up tight @$$**** lol_

This sums it up for me. That light in the middle of nowhere serves to settle any confusion should there be more than one car there at a time. In the middle of the night, nobody else around, laws nonwithstanding, it seems a little moronic to HAVE to stop and sit there for a while. Yes, it's the law. No, it's not always logical.

Especially for a cyclist, whose only putting him/herself at risk.

And yes, I know that there's plenty of "What ifs" such as, What if another car is coming that you can't see? What if a pedestrian is crossing that the cyclist doesn't see? I still say, knowing how long some of those red lights can last w/o more traffic triggering them, that I'd go through on a bike after slowing down a bit.


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## Yeti2424 (Feb 27, 2009)

Just obey the law. In California moving violations on a bicycle go on you Drivers License Motor Vehicle Record. I work in the insurance industry and have seen tickets on MVR's from riding a bicycle such as speeding, unsafe lane change, driving on the wrong side of the road, turning without signaling, red light, stop sign, failure to yield, and driving under the influence(on your record for 10 years). I've seen kids get such tickets on bicycles and the California DMV assigned them a Drivers License # to put the ticket on and they were unable to get a permit/license until they were 18. With the fines and increases of premium on your auto insurance it's really not worth it financially to not obey the law.


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

MassRider413 said:


> i honestly dont think u did anything wrong. you stopped, checked for cars and went on safely down the street not disturbing anyone. i think a lot of you are a little up tight @$$**** lol


That is a really well thought out and articulate way of stating your point. Congratulations on completely missing the overall point of this thread. As an @sshole who obeys traffic laws, I'd like to thank you for your efforts to increase public and police awareness of cyclist's general disdain for obeying the simple rules of a civilized society. "lol"


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

_thank you for your efforts to increase public and police awareness of cyclist's general disdain for obeying the simple rules of a civilized society. "lol"_

Yeah, everybody else obeys the law AT ALL TIMES. I've seen enough SUVs AND cops blowing through red lights to not lose sleep over how terrible I am as a cyclist.

Does their behavior make it okay? Of course not. It does make it hypocritical of them to get all high-and-mighty though.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Here's part of an article about a cyclist that got hit while riding according to the law:

"_Then, this grey SUV came swooping in and came really close, like one foot away from my wheel," said Dooda, who claimed he was not pedaling in the crowded bike lane because he was keeping up with vehicular traffic by going 25 mph, the speed limit in the park.

"It was very aggressive...he was deliberate and kept revving his engine," said Dooda. "I kept my pace up as we came to the stop light \[and\] I looked back and yelled 'You almost killed me. It's 25 \[mph\] in the park - slow down!'"

But the SUV did not slow down, instead jerking forward and knocking Dooda to the ground, the bicyclist said._

So you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.


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## Gary the No-Trash Cougar (Oct 14, 2008)

Christine said:


> Yeah, everybody else obeys the law AT ALL TIMES. I've seen enough SUVs AND cops blowing through red lights to not lose sleep over how terrible I am as a cyclist.
> 
> Does their behavior make it okay? Of course not. It does make it hypocritical of them to get all high-and-mighty though.


That's why we law abiding citizens should try to lead by example.


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

Christine said:


> Here's part of an article about a cyclist that got hit while riding according to the law:
> 
> "_Then, this grey SUV came swooping in and came really close, like one foot away from my wheel," said Dooda, who claimed he was not pedaling in the crowded bike lane because he was keeping up with vehicular traffic by going 25 mph, the speed limit in the park.
> 
> ...


He's a roadie! I thought he had a holier than thou attitude with his statements. The driver in the SUV must have been a mountain biker


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## Selftest (Jun 3, 2009)

Look, I know this has been done to death. But think of it this way...

Laws are there for a reason. Even if we don agree with them, choose to ignore them, break them on purpose... It doesn't change the fact that if we break them, we have the potential to pay for our infraction.

All would agree that a bike is a vehicle, right? All would agree that there should be some sort of law for all people sharing a road, right? If you can get a ticket for jaywalking on an empty road, why should you not get a ticket for rolling a red light in an intersection? 

I have a feeling that, if you would have stopped for a few minutes, taken a breather, drank some fluids, and then proceeded with caution, you may have avoided the cops "nastiness." Maybe. 

This is not always the case. Some cops are just ********s. That is true for every person or proffession on this planet. You don't know him. You don't know his history. Maybe someone he was close to died in a bike accident doing exactly what you did. Who knows?

The fact if the matter is, points and a fine are normal. Traffic school is your friend. You learned a lesson, and didn't even have to pay for it. Consider yourself taught, and move on.


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## the munts (Jan 7, 2009)

> Traffic school is your friend. You learned a lesson, and didn't even have to pay for it. Consider yourself taught, and move on.


Traffic school certainly is not friendly. But I did move on...about 3 months ago. Is this thread really still going?


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

Next time stop at the light for a split second, hang a right (I assume you can turn right on red lights down there) go 20 ft, cross street...continue on your way.

Nothing illegal with that...unless crossing the street with your bike is j-walkin. In the great white north we call that a legal loophole.:thumbsup:


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