# Modern Trail Building.. What's popular right now?



## twowheelmotion (Feb 10, 2010)

What's everyone building these days? 

Ten years ago, everyone wanted jumps and berms but 8% IMBA standards ruled the land.. These days, Flow Trails like the one in Demonstration Forest in Aptos, CA seem to be the standard. Even Bentonville, AR, the home town of The Wal Mart has flow, jumps and fun stuff.. 

But now that trail builders have answered the calls to build bike-specific flow, which to me, is as "modern" trail building can get, what's the next level? 

I ask because I was on a flow trail binge, for a long, long time. It was recently I rode some rather rudimentary trails that were narrow, steep, rocky and raw. I was puckered, I was scared and I had a blast!! 

Brought up the question that: If the chance to build new routes, and lines came available, would flow be the call? What's everyone else building?


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## bizango (Mar 20, 2016)

It depends on a rider's style of course, but I prefer riding and building trails that utilize the natural features and terrain. I think it is a shame when I see flow trails that literally could be anywhere because the ground has been manipulated so heavily. I have been increasingly seeing maintenance on traditional trails adding berms and flow trail like features. Sometimes that does help with the way the trails rides, but other times is takes away a lot of character and some of the inherent riding challenges. But hey, I'm probably way more of a traditionalist when it comes to the riding experience than your average rider.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Best trails I've ever ridden have all been a mix of flow and older traditional style trails. You can build a traditional trail a little wider and give it some flow without going overboard on jumps and berms.

SVBC has absolutely mastered trails like these here in central Virginia.


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## sbd (Sep 23, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> Best trails I've ever ridden have all been a mix of flow and older traditional style trails.


This.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

twowheelmotion said:


> but 8% IMBA standards ruled the land..


I'm going to stop you right there. IMBA guidelines do not lead to bland or bad trails. Choosing mileage over quality leads to bad trails. Tech, fun, wood or rock work is expensive. If you don't want to pay contractors, you have to have a land manager who is willing to bring in volunteers to gnar it up. Few land managers are willing to unleash volunteers. All the things people like or complain about regarding trails is the choice of the builder/land manager/club/Santa Claus or whoever. A group that wanted to could build Ladies Only and be 100% IMBA guidelines compliant. Its just going to be very expensive.



Fajita Dave said:


> Best trails I've ever ridden have all been a mix of flow and older traditional style trails. You can build a traditional trail a little wider and give it some flow without going overboard on jumps and berms.
> 
> SVBC has absolutely mastered trails like these here in central Virginia.


^^^ This. You can use the flow shapes and keep the trail looking more natural and not a dirt highway. Put the jumps and kickers and berms where the terrain allows for it.

Look at this and you see a trail builder who took the time:


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Paid professionals are building whatever their clients ask for. Although sometimes the terrain dictates the actual outcome in unexpected ways. You can't dig up dirt for berms and pump rollers on solid rock, and when you find solid rock, you have to work with the grade that it gives you, which of course isn't a problem from an erosion standpoint, but might be more difficult to ride than desired. I never like to miss an opportunity to provide a range of experiences on a single trail if I have some leeway. But I can't put a big jump line on 24" wide trail. In the past 2 years I've literally built everything from purpose built direction specific gravity trail with tech and jump features, to a completely hand built 8+ mile rock tech fest that involved using 3 come-a-longs and a grip hoist to move single rocks into place, and pretty much everything in between.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> SVBC has absolutely mastered trails like these here in central Virginia.


That Lookout reroute up above Stokesville - that sticks out in my mind.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

CycleKrieg said:


> Choosing mileage over quality leads to bad trails.


Wish more people understood this. I rode a trail recently where the terrain had good potential but the trail utilized non of it. Instead the trail cut out any speed that would have been gained on the descents. There were route options that offered no variety over the other option. There was lots of places the trail went out of its way to pointlessly wind around trees that were not otherwise in the path of the trail. The trail sees very little traffic. Despite only being a couple years old, it looks like nature is taking it back (still covered in leaves from the fall).


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

jeremy3220 said:


> Wish more people understood this. I rode a trail recently where the terrain had good potential but the trail utilized non of it. Instead the trail cut out any speed that would have been gained on the descents. There were route options that offered no variety over the other option. There was lots of places the trail went out of its way to pointlessly wind around trees that were not otherwise in the path of the trail. The trail sees very little traffic. Despite only being a couple years old, it looks like nature is taking it back (still covered in leaves from the fall).


We also have lots of that here in central VA from another trail organization haha! It's getting better though. I'm a member of this one but never get to help on trail work days because I work on Saturdays so I can't complain.

Even if I did help build more trails here I don't have anywhere near the experience needed to make really good trails. I just have a lot of time messing around with backyard trails and I used to build BMX jump lines when I was a kid.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Cotharyus said:


> That Lookout reroute up above Stokesville - that sticks out in my mind.


Lookout is a good example! So is Wolf Ridge and plenty of trails on Massanutten's western slopes.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Fajita Dave said:


> Lookout is a good example! So is Wolf Ridge and plenty of trails on Massanutten's western slopes.


I haven't been on the western slope since I was in high school. That was in the early 90's. At some point I need to make it back out there.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Cotharyus said:


> I haven't been on the western slope since I was in high school. That was in the early 90's. At some point I need to make it back out there.


Check it out on Trail Forks. Honestly you'll need the app just to navigate anyway as they packed a ton of trails into a small space. Definitely ride down Laird's nose and Puzzler. Anything else you do from there will still be awesome. If you're good through super chunky rocks you can ride/hike up Laird's downhill and ride the ridge line back from Kaylor's Knob. Upper Ravine is a good descent from the ridgeline, super chunky rocks at the top which transitions into a smoother flowy downhill.

Western Slopes does have a $10 fee now that you pay through the LuvTrails app. I don't know if they charge in the 90s but the trails have changed massively in the past 8 or so years. I would live in their parking lot if I could.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

So, to the OP... "What's popular right now?"

(the following gets a bit off topic...)

Dwindling are the days of large tracts of land where the ambitious loner with too much time on his hands could go build whatever sort of trail he wanted. Land managers are now forcing trail builders to act collectively through organized entities/clubs. Liability issues and catering to competing trail users force this. So when you have more people weighing in, trail design changes. 

In the past trails were very often built by the few gnarled, weathered, challenge-seeking, hard core riders. Fun was a far afterthought and challenge was the goal. (Think about it... picture the lone guy, with pick and rake in hand, bent and toiling for hours over the muck and mire - seem like fun?) Challenge was indeed the goal - trails were quite simply harder - more rugged, with steep ups and downs. The builder would be saddened if anyone could ride their trail "no-dab" the first few times through. Make no mistake, flow could be found but it had to be earned through long hours of grappling with off camber rocks and roots, the steeps and jagged sections, the ups and the downs. Personally speaking, a trail that leaves me scabby kneed, red-lined, cussin'.... that's a trail I'll come back to every day to make it flow. I'd sooner have a lost a good hard fight against a strong opponent, than be the champion in a too easily won contest. 


Now with more folks involved with trail building, or shall we say with giving input to trail building, naturally there will be more inexperienced riders weighing in. There will be more folks just wanting easy fun - a quick thrill. Not saying that is wrong, just different. So trails today, in general are easier. They are geared toward simple fun. A quick thrill. Again not bad, just different. Newer trails are more buff and highly manicured. Trails filled with man-made features. They are trails you can bring most any beginner too and they will have a blast. It will help "grow the sport" if that is what you are after.

Call these "fun trails", cotton candy. You get a quick smile but the thrill is gone rather quickly for the advanced rider. But for the majority of riders, the non-obsessed mountain biker, these trails will provide lasting fun.


As a testament to what I'm saying go to any DH, lift assist bike area. Its like a microcosm of the evolution (or de-volution) of trail building. The old school trails - the oldest trails on the map vs the new buffed out "fun trails" (I refrain from using the term "flow trail" as any good trail, buff or rugged, will offer flow.). New "fun trails" are packed with weekend warriors - literally falling over each other, riding on top of each other. For every one old school gnar trail, three fun trails are being built. Riding the original, old school trails at DH parks you'd think you are the only one on the mountain. No surprise, the majority of people on bikes want just the fun. The work and challenge take a far back seat for the general population.


That said, anyone who is willing to spend their own time and energy volunteering to build any kind of trail has my appreciation. Furthermore, I'm very thankful I even have the opportunity to play in the dirt like I get to do. We still have so much public land to do nearly as we please. We are lucky.


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

Miker J said:


> Newer trails are more buff and highly manicured. Trails filled with man-made features. They are trails you can bring most any beginner too and they will have a blast. It will help "grow the sport" if that is what you are after.


Also, making this a bigger issue is that sometimes land managers (and even clubs) can get it in there head that trail maintenance is a museum function. The trails can never change and every root or pebble must be removed with prejudice.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Whatever trail you build, hikers and noobs will passionately cut alternate paths around every pebble which will become a worn-in re-route in a matter of days.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

TylerVernon said:


> Whatever trail you build, hikers and noobs will passionately cut alternate paths around every pebble which will become a worn-in re-route in a matter of days.


This has been a pretty big issue around here in the past year or two. On some new trails I saw it coming and the trail should have been designed a bit differently from the beginning. Most of it is on older trails which have been ridden "correctly" for at least 20 years.

I think education is a critical part of fixing that. Noobs just don't know any better. I always stack logs, branches or rocks where people start going off trail as a passive lesson for whoever started making them.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Miker J said:


> So, to the OP... "What's popular right now?"
> 
> (the following gets a bit off topic...)
> 
> ...


Well stated.

What's popular now is inclusion and accessibility. It comes at the price of adventure. If you learned the sport of mountain biking in the '80s and early '90s, those bikes on primitive trails, you had to be adventuresome and athletic. Those of us that really connected to that experience often find the modern version of mountain biking less than compelling.

For me, those old trails still exist. Many have been blown out from the moto crowd but the mtb lines are still in there. I have my home trails where I never had to answer to anyone about accessibility or liability. Just so long as that older experience is still available, I won't begrudge those who build and ride excavated flow trails.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

MOJO K said:


> Well stated.
> 
> What's popular now is inclusion and accessibility. It comes at the price of adventure. If you learned the sport of mountain biking in the '80s and early '90s, those bikes on primitive trails, you had to be adventuresome and athletic. Those of us that really connected to that experience often find the modern version of mountain biking less than compelling.
> 
> For me, those old trails still exist. Many have been blown out from the moto crowd but the mtb lines are still in there. I have my home trails where I never had to answer to anyone about accessibility or liability. Just so long as that older experience is still available, I won't begrudge those who build and ride excavated flow trails.


Totally agree with this. I think there is a resurgence of "pirate building" but it is 2.0 aka low key, low impact but focusing more the rider experience rather than mass consensus. These types of trails should be allowed as without continual maintenance they dissolve back to a natural state within months if not weeks. They use all natural features of rock, topography, dirt, local wood (not milled and/or nailed) and from the hiker perspective look pretty much like game trails for the most part.

I actually think this is a positive move for MTBing. Formally sanctioned trail systems should go through formally sanctioned building processes and for promotion and mass consumption taking into account "the greater need / good". Small "homegrown project" trails that stay in what I would characterize as minimally evasive and/or "rustic" should continue to be built by those who know how. Many times these eventually become the basis for formalized trail systems.

Of course, these systems should not be built on private land without permission and those built on public land should be aligned to the specific language in the master plan for those areas.

$0.02


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

The modern, sanctioned trails being built that I've ridden in the last five years, mostly in western Colorado, all remind me of a scene from the Matrix. They're all sitting in the galley of the The Nebuchadnezzar, and Mouse is waxing philosophical about "tasty wheat". Loosely paraphrased, "How does the Matrix know what tasty wheat tastes like? Same for chicken, maybe they don't know what chicken tastes like, that's why everything tastes like chicken." That's how I feel about these sanctioned trail builds, IMBA sponsored, backed and designed. Doesn't matter where or what you're riding, it all tastes like chicken. Someone is taking the topography of the trail build area, plugging it into the same IMBA algorithm, and out pops a trail route, same stupid switchbacks, unnecessarily loopy, bermed, with "flow" design everywhere. You can just feel the Matrix oozing from these lifeless trails. As mentioned previously, the trails I grew up riding evolved from game trails, almost organic in design and layout. Anyway, as we ride new trails and come across one of these, its common for someone in my family to yell out "tastes like chicken!". Rarely do we return to ride them a second time.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

watermonkey said:


> The modern, sanctioned trails being built that I've ridden in the last five years, mostly in western Colorado, all remind me of a scene from the Matrix. They're all sitting in the galley of the The Nebuchadnezzar, and Mouse is waxing philosophical about "tasty wheat". Loosely paraphrased, "How does the Matrix know what tasty wheat tastes like? Same for chicken, maybe they don't know what chicken tastes like, that's why everything tastes like chicken." That's how I feel about these sanctioned trail builds, IMBA sponsored, backed and designed. Doesn't matter where or what you're riding, it all tastes like chicken. Someone is taking the topography of the trail build area, plugging it into the same IMBA algorithm, and out pops a trail route, same stupid switchbacks, unnecessarily loopy, bermed, with "flow" design everywhere. You can just feel the Matrix oozing from these lifeless trails. As mentioned previously, the trails I grew up riding evolved from game trails, almost organic in design and layout. Anyway, as we ride new trails and come across one of these, its common for someone in my family to yell out "tastes like chicken!". Rarely do we return to ride them a second time.


That's a very good way to put it. We don't have many trails like that around here but I know exactly what you're talking about.

I find there's a few things in life that become a whole lot less fun when they get more refined. They're still "fun" but feel to safe to be exciting or satisfying.


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## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

watermonkey said:


> The modern, sanctioned trails being built that I've ridden in the last five years, mostly in western Colorado, all remind me of a scene from the Matrix. They're all sitting in the galley of the The Nebuchadnezzar, and Mouse is waxing philosophical about "tasty wheat". Loosely paraphrased, "How does the Matrix know what tasty wheat tastes like? Same for chicken, maybe they don't know what chicken tastes like, that's why everything tastes like chicken." That's how I feel about these sanctioned trail builds, IMBA sponsored, backed and designed. Doesn't matter where or what you're riding, it all tastes like chicken. Someone is taking the topography of the trail build area, plugging it into the same IMBA algorithm, and out pops a trail route, same stupid switchbacks, unnecessarily loopy, bermed, with "flow" design everywhere. You can just feel the Matrix oozing from these lifeless trails. As mentioned previously, the trails I grew up riding evolved from game trails, almost organic in design and layout. Anyway, as we ride new trails and come across one of these, its common for someone in my family to yell out "tastes like chicken!". Rarely do we return to ride them a second time.


Quoted for truth. Same here in Vt.


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## Flinthilldigger (Sep 22, 2020)

DaveVt said:


> Quoted for truth. Same here in Vt.


Haha no offense, but I don't think there's anything wrong with flow and inclusivity. There is room for both types of trail- flow and natural. Both have beauty and teach you different things. Mountain biking has grown, gentlemen. No reason to tip your nose at things you don't understand.


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## fatso (Jul 27, 2005)

"Tastes like chicken" is a perfect description of what I was trying to explain to some guys a week or so ago.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

I've been up at Brianhead the last 6 weeks working on the Dark Hollow reroute. There's a Thai place there that serves up a mean American breakfast, the other day I got the chicken and waffle. good lawd that chicken smothered in country gravy was delicious!

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, I'm a huge fan of modern day trail building.......to a point. We've learned a lot on what feels good on a bike, I can't see that as a bad thing. If every trail gets built by one guy and that person follows their basic formula every time we will have a problem, no matter how glorious that persons berms and jumps are. 

Dark Hollow is a classic, old school fall line dh trail on the upper section then it follows an old pack trail for the lower 2/3rds. Some of it was fun but a lot of it was just sort of ok imho. There are locals that aren't happy about the project but I'm trying my best to leave some straight lines, difficult flat corners and some untouched short fall line bits that don't even see the blade. Then where the corridor dictates we are building big bermed sequences. We didn't design the corridor so I'm trying to see what they were seeing and make it work. 

I guess like everything, none of this is black and white exactly eh?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

raisingarizona said:


> I've been up at Brianhead the last 6 weeks working on the Dark Hollow reroute. There's a Thai place there that serves up a mean American breakfast, the other day I got the chicken and waffle. good lawd that chicken smothered in country gravy was delicious!
> 
> What were we talking about? Oh yeah, I'm a huge fan of modern day trail building.......to a point. We've learned a lot on what feels good on a bike, I can't see that as a bad thing. If every trail gets built by one guy and that person follows their basic formula every time we will have a problem, no matter how glorious that persons berms and jumps are.
> 
> ...


Not black and white. Exactly. With a project that sounds like what you're working on, it can be change it or lose it. Keeping some of the classic feel while doing what you have to in order to make the required changes is a challenge, but fortunately for riders, what you do to make that happen and what I might do on that exact same project will be different. Which is better? Hypothetically there is no right answer unless one of our versions is just crap. So like you said, as long as more than one person is building, it won't be but so bad.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

watermonkey said:


> The modern, sanctioned trails being built that I've ridden in the last five years, mostly in western Colorado
> 
> "tastes like chicken!". Rarely do we return to ride them a second time.


Well put.

I recently left W.CO, largely because of the direction the trails were going.

I'll have to remember 'tastes like chicken'. We'd taken to calling them 'perfectly calculated crap'. Your moniker gets the point across at least as well without denigrating the work that went in to getting to that point.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

No chix for the most part here in MA. Mostly multi use trails in state parks with volunteer labor. Not so much in the way of brown sidewalks. Big rocks with a little dirt to connect the smaller rocks. Lots of short punchy climbs. Repeat as needed. Great riding all around the greater Boston area.


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## bizango (Mar 20, 2016)

"I recently left W.CO, largely because of the direction the trails were going."

Out of curiosity, what riding areas or trail systems are you referring to?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bizango said:


> Out of curiosity, what riding areas or trail systems are you referring to?


GJ, Fruita, Loma.


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

We are really proud of our new trail, the Cruser's Kettle. Its flowy without being flow trail and got some chunk. It will get chunkier as it ages in, but its nice to have something that isn't the over manufactured ribbon-o-dirt.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

I deny the legitimacy of framing the debate as "What's popular right now?"

Pro builders make the kind of trail the client wants. The client that matters is usually the land owner, hopefully in consultation with whatever bike organization is responsible for maintaining the trails.

All volunteer efforts build whatever they are capable of. That is to say, the focus is often on getting a loop of some kind put together that is rideable, as opposed to building to some design specification.

I hate the trendy distain that certain critics bring to disparage machine built trail as "sanitized" or "soulless" or whatever negative comes to a lazy mind. I get slammed with this idiotic nit picking on a regular basis, and I have zero sympathy for the complaint "But you took out my favorite (insert your feature here)." FWIW, I currently have no approval for use of machinery, but my partner and I are working on it. 

The minority of idiots I deal with offer NOTHING other than bloviating about the wonders of badly eroded trail and complaints about how we're ruining their experience. My response is "Go ride somewhere else then."

I give zero f's about anyone's opinion of my work at this point. To a man, positive or negative, not one of them has the slightest comprehension of what it takes to construct a trail that won't auto-destruct in the first heavy rainfall. And they don't care to make the effort to understand what I'm dealing with. I build what I like to ride, and what will last, and what the land owner will tolerate. Nothing else matters, not even a little bit.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Walt Dizzy said:


> I give zero f's about anyone's opinion of my work at this point.


So, how long have you been designing and building trails for IMBA?


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Very humorous. But don't quit your day job just yet.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Very humorous. But don't quit your day job just yet.


I think he could at least go to part time.

In the post he was responding to, you sound completely and utterly burnt on your job.

Maybe you don't feel as bad as that sounded.

Or maybe it's time to transition into whatever's next.


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## bizango (Mar 20, 2016)

Or take a nap.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

OK, I'll drop the argument.

But I'll still build what I want regardless. You can't stop me now suckas. Hahahaha.....


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## bizango (Mar 20, 2016)

I get what you're saying. You can't make everybody happy. The best you can do is listen to and respect the nature and spirit of the place you are building. If you do it'll tell you what the best layout for the trails are and they will fit and feel natural for that place. Like I've said before, the best trails are already there, we just reveal them.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I think Walt has an extremely valid point aka the blabber of the lazy and uninformed. Lots of people say they want to "help" or worse, build their very own shitty 2' high kicker that doesn't link to a landing and never revisit or maintain it, and think they know what's up about trail building. I see it locally as well where people ask me to / want to build fall line trails 5 yards wide straight down the front of the hill facing all of the neighborhoods below. Yeah, that's not going to cause a stir at all! "Nah Brah, it will totally be sustainable because ITS STEEP!" No joke, someone actually said that to me.

It gets a bit tiresome listening to people complain about trails and systems they put nothing into, but I'm slowly getting better at tuning them out. You can't make everyone happy and everyone will have something "they don't like" about certain sections / trails. It's okay, I am not building the entire system for you. Hell, I'm not building it for myself either!


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

There's not been much said about maintenance. Old trails were usually built with little regard to maintenance. We didn't know as much about it. Fall lines straight down slopes, no water bars, no thought to pooling water or erosion. Even building TTFs with log piles etc.
Modern trails are built to minimize maintenance, because do people want to spend money on new miles or repairing old miles? So the trails are a little more bland in a lot of ways, but there's more of them and they need less maintenance. 
It's always going to be a trade-off. Handbuilt trails that take in every cool feature and need constant attention, compared to machine-assisted that might not be quite so precise and refined but hold up to abuse.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

TooTallUK said:


> There's not been much said about maintenance. Old trails were usually built with little regard to maintenance. We didn't know as much about it. Fall lines straight down slopes, no water bars, no thought to pooling water or erosion. Even building TTFs with log piles etc.
> Modern trails are built to minimize maintenance, because do people want to spend money on new miles or repairing old miles? So the trails are a little more bland in a lot of ways, but there's more of them and they need less maintenance.
> It's always going to be a trade-off. Handbuilt trails that take in every cool feature and need constant attention, compared to machine-assisted that might not be quite so precise and refined but hold up to abuse.


 Constant attention? Not for the most part? MA builder here, lots of rocks, big and small. The key is the layout. Slope and grade. Water is the biggest concern. Clear some drains in the fall. That's about it.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

CycleKrieg said:


> We are really proud of our new trail, the Cruser's Kettle. Its flowy without being flow trail and got some chunk. It will get chunkier as it ages in, but its nice to have something that isn't the over manufactured ribbon-o-dirt.


so that trail while good design and probably ok fun, is still kind of meh and boring....

So many flow trails are just so poor, or medicore the really good ones are few and far between.


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## CycleKrieg (Dec 19, 2013)

BushwackerinPA said:


> so that trail while good design and probably ok fun, is still kind of meh and boring....
> 
> So many flow trails are just so poor, or medicore the really good ones are few and far between.


Not wanting to be that guy, but how do you know what its like to ride this trail?

Also, isn't "fun" sort of the goal?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

My local trail organization makes me want to cry. Cry with joy that is.

Although they do build some flow trails, they also build a whole of of steep, rooty, madness that takes a load of skill to ride. I can't thank the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance enough for what they put together.


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