# How to guide: Reshim your ABS+ HSC shim stack



## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Seems like there has been a lot of talk on here about Manitous ABS+ damper and how good it is. I have been playing around with the HSC shim stack over the last few months and figured i would make a "how to" guide so others can do the same. It only takes 15-20 minutes and once you get a shim stack set up for your weight, The ABS+ damper is even better!

Use a 2.5mm allen wrench to take the top cap off. Take it off carefully!








Be careful not to loose the little ball bearings and springs, They are very tiny and easy to loose track of.When you reassemble, it doesnt matter where they springs and bearings go as long as they are across from each other.








Once the top cap is off, unscrew the damper from the leg and pull it out. Pull is out slowly and you wont loose very much oil. Keep a rag near by because you will loose a little no matter what.
Damper after being pulled out.








At the very top of the damper, there is a place for a 10mm wrench to hold the damper while you use a 13mm socket to unscrew the nut on the bottom of the piston.

One shim that is used as a check valve and a spring are under the piston. This just allows oil to flow freely back into the leg after the fork is compressed and re-extended. When reassembling, The spring goes back with the wider end toward the piston and the skinnier end toward the nut. 
























Close up of bottom of piston








Close up of top of piston








Shim stack installed
















My 2010 drake has 6 compression shims stock. 3 the same size, and 3 that get progressively smaller in a pyramid shape. Lighter rider can remove shims to allow the HSC to open with less force, while heavier riders will want to add shims. Endless possibilities for shim configurations, So if you try this, post your weight and shim stack.

Reassemble same way you take it apart. Make sure the LSC is all the way open(counter clockwise) when you put the damper back in the leg. Oil height should be 87mm from the crown when fully assembled. If your careful taking it apart you shouldn't loose a significant amount of oil, but always check to make sure.:thumbsup:

*Key points from that this thread has turned up:*

1. Thanks to Solitone, we have the Manitou ABS+ tuning guide which includes dyno charts and many different shim stack combinations. Its probably the single best find this thread has produced (thanks Solitone)

This link should work:
https://goo.gl/JaqWO

2. Spring rate needs to be set up correctly. I get PM's and hear of people trying to get their fork to feel right when it is way under/over sprung. Spring rate trumps damping and should always be set up correctly prior to trying different shim stack configurations.

3. A good place to order shims is MX tech.
MX-Tech Suspensions


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Is that a dished piston? With the outer ring protruding slightly more than the inner seat which the centre of the shims are compressed against?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Is that a dished piston? With the outer ring protruding slightly more than the inner seat which the centre of the shims are compressed against?


yes, there is a small lip that the shims sit on top of. From memory I would say is about half a mm tall


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> yes, there is a small lip that the shims sit on top of. From memory I would say is about half a mm tall


Cool, there's another tuning dimension manitou have given you. By relocating small shims to under the largest one you can reduce the preload on the shim stack and have it opening sooner.

Basically now you've got platform starting point on top of all the usual shim stack options. By closing the freebleed it's a total platform.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

that's a great point dougal. I never thought about it, but that would open up even more options.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

So, for a total shim newb here, do you remove one of the largest diameter shim to decrease HSC? Conversely, do you add a shim equal to the largest diameter shims to increase HSC?

What do you torque the nut to?

Is there some place I can read about the underlying mechanics of how this shim system works?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes the stack preload can be a good tuning option for those that understand it.

Currently Race Tech has this option with their G2 series Gold Valves.

Race Tech takes it a step further by allowing the preload shim the ability to run different diameters that alter the port area.

Those wanting to understand more should do some searching about Penske dampers. There should still be tech articles about the various piston or valve body designs.

Also, remember, that as you unload the stack, you almost always must firm the stack. The downside of running a non preloaded stack is in most instances you will increase HS damping and often create deflection issues.

PK


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

Subscribed. (great thread!)

P


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## JLantz (Feb 8, 2005)

I have the Drake '10. 

I am not a suspension engineer. 

How does rider weight affect the purpose of the shim stack?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

JLantz said:


> I have the Drake '10.
> 
> I am not a suspension engineer.
> 
> How does rider weight affect the purpose of the shim stack?


The purpose of the HSC shim stack is to open as a "blow off" when oil pressure builds up because it cant get through LSC circuit fast enough. Heavy riders are going to create more pressure then lighter riders, causing the shim stack to open on smaller hits that a heavier rider may not want it to open on. On the other side, lighter riders will have to hit a much bigger hit to get the same shim stack to open. Think of it as a 250lbs person is going to be much harder on a fork then a 150lbs person, So them same shim stack on the same fork will feel a lot different to those two people.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

half_man_half_scab said:


> So, for a total shim newb here, do you remove one of the largest diameter shim to decrease HSC? Conversely, do you add a shim equal to the largest diameter shims to increase HSC?
> 
> What do you torque the nut to?
> 
> Is there some place I can read about the underlying mechanics of how this shim system works?


You can add and remove any size shim, you will get the biggest effect by adding or removing the biggest shims, but for fine tuning, you can change any of them. There is also different shim thicknesses that you can use for more tuning options.

I couldnt find a torque number for the nut. I just snug it down fairly lightly and have not had any problems, But if anyone find a torque number it would be good to know.

use google to find information on shim stacks, Lots of good information out there:thumbsup:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Took a moment and found a link to the Penske site info.

http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/Adjustable_Manual.pdf

Later pages discuss the various piston design formats.

Pretty technical but should be more than enough information to make your brain hurt.

Granted it is not bicycle specific in title but is applicable.

PK


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Good link PMK


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I've got an introduction to shim stacks on the www.dougal.co.nz website below, because it's frames (yeah it needs updated), but follow this path
www.dougal.co.nz
-> click to enter
-> Suspension
-> Advanced tuning tab will turn up below.  Read the basic tuning one first

The Penske one is a gold mine once you've got a handle on it.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I've got an introduction to shim stacks on the www.dougal.co.nz website below, because it's frames (yeah it needs updated), but follow this path
> www.dougal.co.nz
> -> click to enter
> -> Suspension
> ...


Thats a great link dougal. It explains shim stacks in detail and it written in a way that I would think a noob would understand pretty easily.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Thats a great link dougal. It explains shim stacks in detail and it written in a way that I would think a noob would understand pretty easily.


Thanks, I always appreciate good feedback.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

here is a good place to buy shims. I still need to measure the shims ID and max OD. I will do so and post them when I get a chance.


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Thanks, I always appreciate good feedback.


Dougal, did the quake affect your area?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

derby said:


> Dougal, did the quake affect your area?


Hi Ray

I live about 450km away so that quake and the aftershocks were just able to be felt here. But I do have a lot of friends and also family in Christchurch. So far every report I've heard from people I know is good, but it is still early days and there are a lot of people still to get news from.
It will be some time before the extent of the casaulties are known.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Hi Ray
> 
> I live about 450km away so that quake and the aftershocks were just able to be felt here. But I do have a lot of friends and also family in Christchurch. So far every report I've heard from people I know is good, but it is still early days and there are a lot of people still to get news from.
> It will be some time before the extent of the casaulties are known.


Good to hear you are ok dougal, Hopefully all your friends and family are as well.


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

Subscribed!!!
As I have a 2009 Minute modified with the ABS+ damper.
It's a great setup BTW.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

Hello everyone. I own a Manitou Minute Expert 100 mm.
Weight around 158 pounds, maybe 165 equipped.

Have been riding the fork for about 10-15 hours already and still feel it kinda stiff on its travel. 

One click from fully open is what i usually use when going downhill, on very rocky terrain. Im running the fork at around 10 psi.
Im getting maybe 70 or 75 mms of travel from it, even from big, soccer sized football rocks.
So i was thinking about getting rid of one of the medium shims.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Take the 10 psi out and go for a ride. Taking a shim out would allow you to run the 2-3, maybe even 4 clicks of low speed compression to dial out brake dive and some pedal bob and still maintain small bump sensitivity, But not change the amount of travel you use. Since your fork is a coil fork with air preload, you may need to change to a softer coil spring. That being said though, hitting a soccer sized rock should not bottom your fork, It should only use close full travel on a 2-3 ft drop or a pretty hard hit. What does the fork give you for sag?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thought this would help out: Find your fork and your forks travel. The first number after is is stock oil height, Second set of numbers is acceptable range of oil height.

Circus Comp/Match 80mm 83 80-85
Circus Comp/Match 100mm 83 80-85
Match 130mm 83 80-85
Circus Expert/Drake 80mm 87 85-90
Circus Expert/Drake 100mm 87 85-90
Circus Expert/Drake 130mm 87 85-90
R7 80mm 83 80-85
R7 100mm 83 80-85
Minute 100mm 87 85-90
Minute 120mm 87 85-90
Minute 140mm 87 85-90
Drake 29er 80mm 87 85-90
Drake 29er 100mm 87 85-90
Drake 29er 120mm 87 85-90
Minute 29er 80mm 87 85-90
Minute 29er 100mm 87 85-90
Minute 29er 120mm 87 85-90
R7 MRD 80mm 103 100-105
R7 MRD 100mm 108 105-110
Minute MRD 100mm 108 105-110
Minute MRD 130mm 113 110-115


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## slip20 (Mar 19, 2009)

*Bob*

Just switched out my old 100mm minute absolute air (with ABS+) for a 120mm Tower Pro. I had the 100 dialed so that about 2-4 clicks, I had no bob on the climbs, but had the action that I wanted for travel. On my 120, the only way to control the bob on climbs is full lock out. Would you say adding about 1-2 big shims would put my "happy" range somewhere between full lock out and 0? I weigh 165 and have no idea which springs were in each of those forks, they had what ever was "stock". 
Thanks!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

slip20 said:


> Just switched out my old 100mm minute absolute air (with ABS+) for a 120mm Tower Pro. I had the 100 dialed so that about 2-4 clicks, I had no bob on the climbs, but had the action that I wanted for travel. On my 120, the only way to control the bob on climbs is full lock out. Would you say adding about 1-2 big shims would put my "happy" range somewhere between full lock out and 0? I weigh 165 and have no idea which springs were in each of those forks, they had what ever was "stock".
> Thanks!


You would actually want to remove shims. The Dial on the outside of your fork is low speed compression. The Shims are the high speed compression blow off. If you remove shims, the fork will open the shim stack with less force. So if you remove one or two shims, you will be able to have your low speed one or two clicks from closed(or completely closed if needed) and have the fork still move on impacts.

Your situation is a good situation for experimentation as well. It sounds to me like a dual stage shim stack would work perfect for you.

That would look something like this:









if you put a single shim or a one big and one small shim on the bottom, a few of the smallest shims on top of those to create a gap,( you would have to buy a few shims) followed by a big shim(stack) again, You would have something that would help you out tremendously. This would allow you to run the ABS almost closed to stop pedal bob and brake dive. But when you hit a small bump, open the 1st stage enough to give you some decent small bump sesitivity, but keep you from blowing through travel, and the second stage would allow for good feel on bigger hits.

I would experiment with different shim configurations. You will be able to find something you like after a few tries. But you defenitly are going to want to remove shims, not add( unless you try the two stage stack)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Shims are 8mm ID with a max OD of 19mm


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I tried the dual and triple stage shim stacks a few years ago and gave up on them.

Basically the more stages you put in, the more your shim stack damper imitates an orifice damper. Not enough low speed damping and too much at higher shaft speed. This means the suspension both wallows and spikes. No good at all for the places I like to ride which are littered with sharp rocks and roots.

If you spend a lot of time at either end of the damping spectrum it could work okay (i.e. small bumps followed by a cliff drop), but I've found between a single stage conical stack and a more digressive flat stack to work best. The digressive stacks with more low speed damping seem to be able to extract more bump energy without transferring it to the rider, holding the bike up better between hits and sucking up the fast hits much better.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> I tried the dual and triple stage shim stacks a few years ago and gave up on them.
> 
> Basically the more stages you put in, the more your shim stack damper imitates an orifice damper. Not enough low speed damping and too much at higher shaft speed. This means the suspension both wallows and spikes. No good at all for the places I like to ride which are littered with sharp rocks and roots.
> 
> If you spend a lot of time at either end of the damping spectrum it could work okay (i.e. small bumps followed by a cliff drop), but I've found between a single stage conical stack and a more digressive flat stack to work best. The digressive stacks with more low speed damping seem to be able to extract more bump energy without transferring it to the rider, holding the bike up better between hits and sucking up the fast hits much better.


Thats good to know dougal, I have been experimenting with dual stage myself. I found decent results that seem promising, But nothing spectacular yet. But the places I ride are like you said, Smaller bumps and some medium sized drops, not much in between. Maybe If I dont find something that I really like soon, I will go back to experimenting with different single stage stacks. I have yet to try taking some of the preload off the shim stack yet, Maybe I will try that.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Hey dougal, Did you get affected by the tsunami?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Hey dougal, Did you get affected by the tsunami?


Not here, I'm in the south island and almost as far inland as you can be. It sounds like the north island got big enough waves to measure (40cm or so) but not enough to cause any problems.

From a scientific point of view, this is the best recorded Tsunami of modern times and we will learn a lot from it's movements. My deepest sympathies to those affected in Japan.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I saw that Hawaii and the west coast of the United States had some minor damage from the Tsunami and heard some stuff about New Zealand as well. Good to hear nothing in your area.


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## Clones123 (Apr 29, 2010)

Whoa - so Mullen119 is the Manitou Man! Great info.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The real Manitou man is dougal, He pretty much knows everything there is to know about Manitou.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

I read Manitous also have Rebound shim stacks?

How would that work?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

assas1n said:


> I read Manitous also have Rebound shim stacks?
> 
> How would that work?


Yes oil damped manitous have had shimmed rebound since 1996. The rebound knob is your low-speed rebound dial, it controls oil through the centre of the shaft. The shims are for high speed rebound and open up to allow the fork to extend faster and stick to the ground better (giving more traction and better ride) while keeping low speed movements well controlled and the bike stable.

If your rebound is too slow even with the knob full open then softening up the rebound shim stack will help a lot. On my bikes I like a fast rebound and shoot for the rebound knob mostly closed with the shims doing the majority of the work.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

Oh i see, so i need no manipulating on that matter hehe.
I run more less at the middle of the rebound knobb.

Whats weird is, if i run the fork with a really slow rebound, actually the compression gets harder and stiction rises alot !

I own a Minute Expert 2011 - 100mm


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Ok here's a couple question's for you Manitou guru's.

I've been looking at the Minute Expert, and on their site it says:
Travel: 80, 100 (Internally Adj), 130

So what does this mean exactly? If I had a 130mm fork could it be tuned down to 100? And if so how involved of a job is it?

Also I imagine I'll need some kind of air pump. Recommendation?

Sorry for the newb questions!


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

dundundata said:


> Ok here's a couple question's for you Manitou guru's.
> 
> I've been looking at the Minute Expert, and on their site it says:
> Travel: 80, 100 (Internally Adj), 130
> ...


No, the 130 is fixed travel. The 100 is adjustable down to 80 internally. Almost all the Manitou "Expert" and "comp" models do that.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

You can shorten any fork if you are into real modifications. I've never let the factory recommendations or intentions bother me too much.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

The reason i asked was because the best deal I could find for the 100mm has those darn v-brake bosses and the 130mm for the same price has none.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

aaronka970 said:


> Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.


I don't know about ABS but TPC is great and you can shim it to give the ride you want.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

aaronka970 said:


> Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.


Possibly, by swapping dampers, but Manitou says the ABS+ damper won't fit in an SPV fork, others on here say they have successfully fitted it.

Buy one, try it out, let us know. I think the non MRD versions for Minutes are about 45 bucks at CRC. You'd have to get a TPC rebound damper while you're at it, another 40 bucks or so.


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## aaronka970 (May 7, 2010)

Great, thanks!

End of hijack. Could have started another thread, just noticed a lot of Manitou guys active on this one and I like the idea of fine tuning through shim stacks. Not to mention it sounds like ABS+ is the way to go.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

Would it be ok if i take out one of the big shims? (manitou minute expert)
Maybe get 2 of the smaller ones off? Dont know.

I feel the fork is damping the compression too much and not getting enough travel.


Thanks


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

The biggest shim is needed to cover the ports. If you feel you have too much compression damping, take out the smaller shims first.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

All of them?

What i believe is that the fork is too progressive, and i would want it to feel more linear.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

assas1n said:


> All of them?
> 
> What i believe is that the fork is too progressive, and i would want it to feel more linear.


Progression is the spring, not the damper. Feel free to drain the oil from the damper and go for a ride to see how much travel you can get with no damping. Just beware it'll be quite bouncey.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

assas1n said:


> Would it be ok if i take out one of the big shims? (manitou minute expert)
> Maybe get 2 of the smaller ones off? Dont know.
> 
> I feel the fork is damping the compression too much and not getting enough travel.
> ...


There should be 3 of the largest shims stack on top of each other on your fork. You need to leave at least one to cover the oil ports. But removing one(or two) should will be fine. Experiment with removing different shims and see how it effects the ride, and the LSC (ABS+ dial). It will allow you to better understand what you are changing.


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## assas1n (Sep 28, 2009)

Yep, ill have to get my hands dirty and learn!

Will be getting oil for the damper and semi oil bath for the lowers next week, so i can do experimentation on the shims!

Thanks guy!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> My 2010 drake has 6 compression shims stock. 3 the same size, and 3 that get progressively smaller in a pyramid shape. Lighter rider can remove shims to allow the HSC to open with less force, while heavier riders will want to add shims. Endless possibilities for shim configurations, So if you try this, post your weight and shim stack.


Very interesting thread--I suscribed to it.

Just wondering what configuration you tried was the best for your weight? The standard configuration from Manitou, or a custom one where you removed or added shims?

I remember from another post of yours that you weigh like me, so it'd be a good starting point for me.


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## big Kat (Feb 19, 2004)

Dougal

I have 2005 manitou Nixon super, air sprung with TPC+. I'm over 300lbs and want to tune this fork for cross country and all mountain. I do not get off the ground much but want better control from my Nixon. Right now I'm running 7.5 weight oil and have the max level in the fork. What suggestions do have to control diving and to keep the fork riding higher in it travel. I am willing to try re-shimming the fork but need some expert advice before I dig in.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

big Kat said:


> Dougal
> 
> I have 2005 manitou Nixon super, air sprung with TPC+. I'm over 300lbs and want to tune this fork for cross country and all mountain. I do not get off the ground much but want better control from my Nixon. Right now I'm running 7.5 weight oil and have the max level in the fork. What suggestions do have to control diving and to keep the fork riding higher in it travel. I am willing to try re-shimming the fork but need some expert advice before I dig in.


I would start by doubling the shims that are in the compression damper. Simply double them up and go from there. Presuming your air-spring pressure is okay, there is also a short coil spring under the air spring which should be upgraded to a stiffer one.

The rebound will probably be okay as most find the stock range too slow, see how that end goes.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

For outdoor riding, I remove one of the big shims and its close to what I am looking for. I have been experimenting with a two stage stack, But havent found the perfect set up yet. I need to order more shims to give myself more options.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> For outdoor riding,


Is there any other type of riding?


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## big Kat (Feb 19, 2004)

Dougal,

Thanks. I have 2 stiff ride kits already. Do you have any info on the shim size? Should I move to a thicker shim or just double up?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

big Kat said:


> Dougal,
> 
> Thanks. I have 2 stiff ride kits already. Do you have any info on the shim size? Should I move to a thicker shim or just double up?


It is better to double up the shims. Thicker shims cannot flex as far without bending and eventually breaking.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Is there any other type of riding?


 Where I live, There is Rays MTB which is indoor mountain bike park for the winter. I was running a different set up there because there isnt much for small bumps. I was running my fork almost locked out with a weak shim stack to allow for it to blow off on the medium sized hits without a really harsh spike. Not much for big hits there, so the weak shim stack didnt give any problems with harsh bottom outs. I forgot about it and took it for my first outdoor ride of the year last week and had some problems :lol:


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Manutou's ABS+ tuning guide*

I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.

They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.

This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Great find, thanks.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Awesome link!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

That is a fantastic link and really useful information for anybody that has a Manitou fork.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Suspension Damping*

For those like me who don't have a deep knowledge of suspension damping, here's an article that gives a good brief introduction.

It refers to motorbike suspensions, hence velocity figures used in the examples are higher than those experienced by MTB suspensions. Nevertheless the basic principles are the same.

It explains the difference between low and high speed damping, as well as the meaning of damping curves, so it helps understand the damping curves in Manitou's document I posted before.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

solitone said:


> ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf


Score!!!


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## Mr.P (Feb 8, 2005)

Thanks for posting that up, solitone, great doc!

P


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

solitone said:


> For those like me who don't have a deep knowledge of suspension damping, here's an article that gives a good brief introduction.
> 
> It refers to motorbike suspensions, hence velocity figures used in the examples are higher than those experienced by MTB suspensions. Nevertheless the basic principles are the same.
> 
> It explains the difference between low and high speed damping, as well as the meaning of damping curves, so it helps understand the damping curves in Manitou's document I posted before.


link is not to article, but to the main page, which doesn't have the article
could you double check


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I tuned mine a long time ago.. from what I remember, even at 200lbs I ended up pulling out all but one of the big shims. Mine had a ton of shims in it and it rode like a brick! I think they wanted a simulated platform.

Dont forget about very nice shimmed rebound damper! IMO, rebound tuning is really what turns a good fork, into a fantastic fork. Theres tons of control in getting your HSR really dialed.. nice and fast HSR stops pack up, and slow LSR gives control. 

Sadly, I had to give up on ABS+  I had a fork that technically shouldnt exist, an IT abs+ minute. The IT needs the spv pressure to have a normal spring rate.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> I tuned mine a long time ago.. from what I remember, even at 200lbs I ended up pulling out all but one of the big shims. Mine had a ton of shims in it and it rode like a brick! I think they wanted a simulated platform.
> 
> Dont forget about very nice shimmed rebound damper! IMO, rebound tuning is really what turns a good fork, into a fantastic fork. Theres tons of control in getting your HSR really dialed.. nice and fast HSR stops pack up, and slow LSR gives control.
> 
> Sadly, I had to give up on ABS+  I had a fork that technically shouldnt exist, an IT abs+ minute. The IT needs the spv pressure to have a normal spring rate.


I don't think that is true. Manitou made a Minute 140 IT with ABS. Not very common but they made it.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

The fork sagged excessively. Running enough pressure to keep it in the top of the travel like it should would make using all the travel impossible. It wasnt the platform either, as I had gutted the ball assembly. It was effectively a 130mm fork with abs+. With IT, I had it at about 145mm.

Manitous cs told me making an abs IT minute would be impossible.. its obviously not, but something funny happens with the IT spring. If theres a factory IT ABS fork, they might have retuned the negative chamber or something.


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## Bicycle019 (Jan 23, 2004)

Thanks for the link! Much appreciated


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

chauzie said:


> link is not to article, but to the main page, which doesn't have the article
> could you double check


That's strange. I've just hit the link and it opens the article--not the main page as you say. Its titile is _Technicalities: Suspension Damping_, and it is in the section _Home»Motorcycle Tech Tips_.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.
> 
> They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.
> 
> This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf


Whats odd about the link is that my stock shim stack is not listed IMO, One of the best links posted on this site.:thumbsup:


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm actually curious which fork gets which stack-configuration...

Is manitou planning on offering a shimpack/tuning kit?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> The fork sagged excessively. Running enough pressure to keep it in the top of the travel like it should would make using all the travel impossible. It wasnt the platform either, as I had gutted the ball assembly. It was effectively a 130mm fork with abs+. With IT, I had it at about 145mm.
> 
> Manitous cs told me making an abs IT minute would be impossible.. its obviously not, but something funny happens with the IT spring. If theres a factory IT ABS fork, they might have retuned the negative chamber or something.


That is interesting. I have a 160 Nixon IT that originally came with an intrinsic damper. Worked great but wanted to try TPC+ (as I had it before in my X-vert super and loved it!). While it works well, I can't help but think that the intrinsic, with it strong bottom out control and progressive nature worked better with the IT system.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

two-one said:


> I'm actually curious which fork gets which stack-configuration...


I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:

- *Production XC Stack*: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
- *Production Trial Stack*: Minute;
- *Production Jump Stack*: Circus.

I would have said that Tower had the same stack as Minute (being the same fork as Minute but for 29er), however Manitou's webpage doesn't specify trail tuning.



two-one said:


> Is manitou planning on offering a shimpack/tuning kit?


They told me that the document comes with Manitou's new tuning kit they are selling. So yes, I think there is already a tuning kit on offer.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Whats odd about the link is that my stock shim stack is not listed


Yes, I noticed that. Perhaps something has changed in this year's shim stack configurations?


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## jdgang (Oct 1, 2009)

Well I will be looking into this soon. I just put in a ABS+ damper in my 2008 Minute Comp 140. Dont know if I will though since mine fork has the stage 2 spring rate and it seems (only after one ride) that I have really finite control on the amount of bump control for the fork. really plush spring rate at the lowest ABS+ fully open...perfect spring rate three clicks from the lowest ABS+ two clicks from open....fully locked spring rate at the highest ABS+ closed


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## HomegrownMN (Nov 29, 2004)

solitone said:


> I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:
> 
> - *Production XC Stack*: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
> - *Production Trial Stack*: Minute;
> ...


Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack. 
I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP. 
Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.

sent from my hand-held computer


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.
> 
> ...


Photo's...?


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## HomegrownMN (Nov 29, 2004)

Negative. Looks the same as the OP's pics, just the differences i explained. Maybe next time i open her up, i'll take pics

sent from my hand-held computer


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.
> 
> ...


I will be super disappointed if they are using a plastic piston.......

Side note: I talked to a Manitou tech a few days ago and they said there may be a long travel fork (160-180mm coming out, but not until 2013. Hopefully this is true.


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## HomegrownMN (Nov 29, 2004)

Well, be disappointed. I was told today by Manitou tech, that the Pro comes with the alum piston. Expert gets plastic. Waiting to hear back from them about my shim stack. Their website definetly says 'Trail Tuned' and i most definetly have the XC pack..... Hopefully they will be sending me a Trail stack, but i was told the tuning 'kits' aren't available yet...?!?

sent from my hand-held computer


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

HomegrownMN said:


> Well, be disappointed. I was told today by Manitou tech, that the Pro comes with the alum piston. Expert gets plastic. Waiting to hear back from them about my shim stack. Their website definetly says 'Trail Tuned' and i most definetly have the XC pack..... Hopefully they will be sending me a Trail stack, but i was told the tuning 'kits' aren't available yet...?!?
> 
> sent from my hand-held computer


I wonder it the Match comes with a piston made out of a wicker basket......

Im very disappointed with that news. Especially because My 2010 drake came with a aluminum piston and the Minute Expert is suppose to be the exact same fork.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Manitou have almost always used plastic damper pistons. The only exceptions I have owned are 99 Xvert Ti (aluminium rebound piston) , 2000 Xvert carbon (aluminium rebound piston), 03 Minute SPV (aluminium piston), 06 Nixon (TPC+ removable cartridge) and Nixons.

All the rest of the EFC's, FS Ti's, Xverts, Blacks, Mars etc that I've owned are plastic pistons, none of them have suffered because of that.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Manitou have almost always used plastic damper pistons. The only exceptions I have owned are 99 Xvert Ti (aluminium rebound piston) , 2000 Xvert carbon (aluminium rebound piston), 03 Minute SPV (aluminium piston), 06 Nixon (TPC+ removable cartridge) and Nixons.
> 
> All the rest of the EFC's, FS Ti's, Xverts, Blacks, Mars etc that I've owned are plastic pistons, none of them have suffered because of that.


I dont see why it would have any effect on performance, but its still disappointing IMO.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.
> 
> ...


You can order shims here by the way


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.
> 
> Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.


What is the OP?


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## HomegrownMN (Nov 29, 2004)

solitone said:


> What is the OP?


Wow. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OP+++urban+dictionary

sent from my hand-held computer


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## jdgang (Oct 1, 2009)

lmgty.com one of my fav websites..I send that link to my wife all the time. 

:madman::madmax::madman:


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## HomegrownMN (Nov 29, 2004)

Good news & bad news....

Good news, always first:
After speaking to Manitou tech last week about my valving, i recieved a small envelope today. Inside was the 'speed shim' as Manitou calls it. This is essentially the only diff between the XC & TRAIL valving. It lies on top of the piston and then the 2 platform shims on top of that. Everything mic'd out as per Manitou's charts.(that link rules!)

Installed the Speed Shim along with both Platform shims (removed 1 before) in the proper order. Reassembled & rode around the block a couple times. 
Initial impression is a much livelier feel & less platform. This setup also ramps up considerably compared to the XC valving that was real linear after the platform. Will be taking it out for a real ride thurs.
This is my kinda feel. A couple clicks of comp damping and we should be good to go.

Bad News: i didn't take any pics! 
(I hate messing with my camera while wearing oily latex gloves)

I've got about 10hrs on mine so far and all i can say, are good things.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

HomegrownMN said:


> Good news & bad news....
> 
> Good news, always first:
> After speaking to Manitou tech last week about my valving, i recieved a small envelope today. Inside was the 'speed shim' as Manitou calls it. This is essentially the only diff between the XC & TRAIL valving. It lies on top of the piston and then the 2 platform shims on top of that. Everything mic'd out as per Manitou's charts.(that link rules!)
> ...


Thats great! Manitou costumer service is top notch.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> I dont see why it would have any effect on performance, but its still disappointing IMO.


Why does it disappoint you? I would myself say an aluminum piston is more stiff and durable than a plastic one. But is this the case indeed?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> Why does it disappoint you? I would myself say an aluminum piston is more stiff and durable than a plastic one. But is this the case indeed?


I would agree, My Drake came with an aluminum piston. When they switched the name "Drake" to "Minute Expert", They also must have switched from an aluminum piston to a plastic piston. Its really not a big deal, But its a little disappointing. I would much prefer my aluminum piston over the plastic.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

Found what I think is the perfect setup for my Clyde ride!!! Running one velocity shim and four blow-off shims. My 29 M Minute is performing better than ever…


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## squints88 (Jul 12, 2011)

This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?

I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

squints88 said:


> This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?
> 
> I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?


Yes, I think you can tune the Circus, although I'd probably take the Minute, which is already tuned for trail riding and it seems stiff and durable as well.

Regarding the _jump stack_, have a look at a couple of previous posts:



solitone said:


> I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.
> 
> They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.
> 
> This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf





solitone said:


> I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:
> 
> - *Production XC Stack*: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
> - *Production Trial Stack*: Minute;
> ...


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

squints88 said:


> This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?
> 
> I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?


I think it would be overkill for an AM fork, but it certainly could be tuned to perform. It has all the same internals, just a different shim configuration. Considering you can find the Minute Expert for about the same price, I'd rather go that route, save about a pound and a half...


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## squints88 (Jul 12, 2011)

thanks i read over that pdf and it seems like the damper is the same and thie difference is simply in the shim stack.

I am weighing the differeces between the minute and another circus..weight isn't really a concern for me as much as reliability. I've got a lot of downhill components on my bike that are a little overkill haha but i dont usually have to replace them thats for sure. Theres some great info in this thread i cant wait to tear into this new fork lol


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I've got a 2011 R7, and I just did the shim stack mod last night.

I ordered a bunch of shims to play with from these guys: www.racingsuspensionproducts.com

What I really wanted was to swap from the stock XC stack to the Trail stack, which means adding one 17.5x0.2 Speed Shim. I couldn't find a perfect match for that, so I went with a 17x0.15 instead.

With the stock XC stack I had found:

1 click from fully open was beautiful on really rooty, technical stuff, but it had seriously unpredictable brakedive.
3~4 clicks mostly eliminated the brakedive, but was significantly harsher
2 clicks was kindof the worst of both worlds.

So I put in the speed shim last night (took maybe 20 minutes) and went for a nice long ride today. The new stack is definitely a better fit for me, because I was able to run at 4~5 clicks and have no brakedive, but still a nice supple ride. With this setup I still have more platform than I need, so I may add a second speed shim or remove/swap one of the blowoff shims with something smaller. Definitely a nice mod, though.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

PMK said:


> Took a moment and found a link to the Penske site info.
> 
> http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/Adjustable_Manual.pdf
> 
> ...


That is awesome. Hopefully getting a roco wc air soon (if the guy doesn't take me for a ride lol).

This is meant to be pretty easy to pull apart, so shim tuning is something I plan on tinkering with!

(also subscribing to thread)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

newfangled said:


> I've got a 2011 R7, and I just did the shim stack mod last night.
> 
> I ordered a bunch of shims to play with from these guys: www.racingsuspensionproducts.com
> 
> ...


Another option to try, assuming you have a shim to use, would be putting a smaller speed shim in. Say 15-16mm x .15. This would allow for more oil flow around the speed shim without the need for the shim to flex as much, giving better oil flow without taking more preload off the rest of the shim stack. I'm afraid that if you have two speed shims, the stack may not have much preload left, making for too weak of a stack. If you do add a second speed shim, You will probably want to add a few more shims to the stack to stiffen it up.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ thanks. My shims are now in the parts box, but I think what I got was 19x.1 (narrower blowoff shims), 17x.15 (my "speed shims"), 17x.1 (narrower speed shims) and 15x.1 (smaller speed shims). So I've got lots to play with. To start with I wanted to get as close to the stock Trail stack as possible, and then work out from there.

There's also a note in the Manitou techdoc that "For TS or ISO Air systems, an extra 5-10cc of semi-bath oil on the air piston will increase the ramp-up of the air spring, reducing bottoming and improving control overall for some riders." I may do that before changing the stack again, just to see what sort of effect it has.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

newfangled said:


> ^ thanks. My shims are now in the parts box, but I think what I got was 19x.1 (narrower blowoff shims), 17x.15 (my "speed shims"), 17x.1 (narrower speed shims) and 15x.1 (smaller speed shims). So I've got lots to play with. To start with I wanted to get as close to the stock Trail stack as possible, and then work out from there.
> 
> There's also a note in the Manitou techdoc that "For TS or ISO Air systems, an extra 5-10cc of semi-bath oil on the air piston will increase the ramp-up of the air spring, reducing bottoming and improving control overall for some riders." I may do that before changing the stack again, just to see what sort of effect it has.


If you end up taking it apart, I would try the 15 x.1 by its self first and see if you like it. If not I would try both 17mm shims and add the 19x1 to the blow off shims to help compensate for the loss in stack preload. Adding the oil to the air spring is always a good thing if you have a bottom out problem or the feeling of a weak mid stroke.

Make sure to change only one thing at a time though so you can see what affect each change makes on performance. It usually takes a few tries, but you will end up with awesome fork.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Yeah, thinking about it a bit for a few more minutes...with the new stack there's no bottom-out issue, so adding oil on the spring doesn't get me anything. I've got to go back to the graphs in the techdoc to see what looks good.


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Absolute Plus Tuning Kit*



zenkem said:


> Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com


Interesting! So now it's official, they'll offer the Absolute Plus Tuning Kit.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I wonder how much the kit will cost? The moto ones online are upwards of $100, which isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but which seems geared more to a shop/team than to the home tinkerer.

As for my R7, adding the extra velocity dependency has made it so much better and I think I'll be keeping my current stack for the foreseeable future. I know the R7 is a bit of a specialized fork, but I don't know when the stock XC stack would ever be better than that trail stack, unless it's for people who ride trails that have absolutely no technical features.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The thing that that has me interested in the kit is that it comes with multiple pistons. I am wondering if there is a difference in the ports on them or if they are just different OD dimensions for the different fork stanchions. Shims are easily bought if needed and solitone posted the contents of the tuning guide, so if the pistons do not have different port designs, the kit is pointless to mtbr users.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I have a tower pro fork and like the ride with the compression set to 3-4 clicks from soft. When the compression is set to 3-4 the fork bottoms out very easily and often. The rebound is set to the middle. 

I would like to have the fork set to 3 clicks and have it ramp up quicker so it will not bottom out as easily. So I would think adding a shim to the hsc stack would be the right thing to do. 

What do you guys think?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> I have a tower pro fork and like the ride with the compression set to 3-4 clicks from soft. When the compression is set to 3-4 the fork bottoms out very easily and often. The rebound is set to the middle.
> 
> I would like to have the fork set to 3 clicks and have it ramp up quicker so it will not bottom out as easily. So I would think adding a shim to the hsc stack would be the right thing to do.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Its hard to answer that question without knowing a few other things first.

Mainly, how much do you weigh? When you fully close your LSC, is your fork fully locked out? If so, how much force does it take when you push down to make the fork move?

If it takes a a pretty good amount of force to break the lock out, then adding a shim would not help you out very much because the shim stack would already be fairly strong giving you a good amount of HSC. If it breaks free from being locked out without much effort, then your current stack is fairly weak and there is not much HSC. Adding a shim would help only if the stack is on the weak side. If its not, your problem is elsewhere.

When it comes to bottoming problems, Its normally caused by the fork being under sprung for the riders weight. In that situation, the damper will be ineffective. Your fork has a small coil spring that is used for the first 20% or so of travel, after that the air spring kicks in. I would up your air pressure a few PSI to help with the bottoming. The small bump sensitivity should not be effected to much since the intitial travel is absorbed by the coil, but it should increase your bottom out resistance. If you are running more then 25-30% sag, you may need a stiffer coil.

Hope that helps.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I guess it's been about two months now since I reshimmed my R7, and I'm totally impressed. I like running 3-clicks too, but I was having problems with nasty brakedive. So like mullen is saying it could just be a spring setting. For brakedive and pedalbob though, adding a speedshim worked beautifully.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

newfangled said:


> I guess it's been about two months now since I reshimmed my R7, and I'm totally impressed. I like running 3-clicks too, but I was having problems with nasty brakedive. So like mullen is saying it could just be a spring setting. For brakedive and pedalbob though, adding a speedshim worked beautifully.


Im glad to see this thread helped you find what you were looking for:thumbsup:

As for rupps5, If we find out he is properly sprung, and doesnt care about a firms lock out, Changing from a platform style stack to more of a true HSC stack by adding a speed shim could be a possible solution. To me, its the only way to have it set up, but I also hate the platform feel of any damper, front or rear.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I weigh 165 without gear.

Messed around with my fork and here is what I got:

original setting:
-70 psi
-sag 18mm -lsc open
-lsc closed and running over a 4x4 in the basement test. Went through 35mm of travel

setting 2:
-85 psi
-sag 19mm -lsc open
-lsc closed and running over a 4x4 test. Went through 37mm of travel

now the test and sag measurements ares not perfect but they are the average of taking each measurement 5 times. So why am I sagging and using up more travel at a higher psi?

I do not care about lock out, I have never used it on any fork and would rather have a true hsc stack.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> I weigh 165 without gear.
> 
> Messed around with my fork and here is what I got:
> 
> ...


The way your fork spring works, Adding air pressure only has a small effect on the amount of sag you get, and at higher air pressures, effect gets smaller.(because the coil spring moves for the first part of travel, the air spring kicks in deeper into the stroke.) It sounds like you have an acceptable amount of sag, so your coil should be correct for your weight.

Running over a 4x4 wont be a very good test because there are many variables that can change the result.(speed, body weight distribution, and body reactions). What you really need to do put in a full ride at 85psi and if it helps the bottoming.

As for your shim stack, adding a speed shim would completely change the feel of the damper. What it would do is take preload off the shim stack making it weaker, and would lose the platform feel to it. Doing this would allow you to run more LSC (say 4-5 clicks) without losing the small bump compliance and without the harsh spiking you feel when running more LSC with your current stack. It basically will create a smooth transition from the LSC to the HSC. This could help you because as your run more LSC, it will force more oil flow through the HSC stack, giving you more overall damping.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ like you're saying, before I added the speed shim I had my fork set so that it wasn't beating me up on the rootiest, choppiest sections of my trails. After the speed shim was installed the fork didn't spike nearly as badly (or at all, really) on the choppy stuff, so I was able to up the pressure and the LSC. Looking back over this thread, I guess that I used to run at 1-2 click open (I thought it was 3), and now I'm at 4-5. The behavior is totally different.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Just got back from a ride with 85psi and I did not like it at all. I did not bottom the fork as much but it was just too stiff. I ended up with the rebound and lsc all the way open to try to get the fork to soak up more bumps but there was just too much air. So I think I will try 77psi for the next ride.


I am interested in trying the speed shim. Where would I get one and what dimensions does it have?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> Just got back from a ride with 85psi and I did not like it at all. I did not bottom the fork as much but it was just too stiff. I ended up with the rebound and lsc all the way open to try to get the fork to soak up more bumps but there was just too much air. So I think I will try 77psi for the next ride.
> 
> I am interested in trying the speed shim. Where would I get one and what dimensions does it have?


Look over the information in this link: http://solitone.interfree.it/ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf

It can be somewhat hard to understand at first, but it gives great information on how the different shim stacks effect the damping curve.

I would suggest starting with a stack consisting of (2) 17.5mm OD x .02mm thick shims on the piston, followed by a 15mm x.02mm followed by a 13mm x .01mm. all with 8mm ID's. That would be a pretty strong stack with no platform.

That is just my suggestion though. Taking the time to learn the information in that link will help you decide what stack to go with. It really depends on what you are looking for performance wise from your fork. Generally speaking, the XC series of stack in the link are going to have a platform feel. The Linear series is a true HSC stack with no preload. And the trail series is a a mix of the two with a small amount of platform, but with much less spiking then the XC series.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Thats funny I just read that pdf a couple of minutes ago. I like the sound of the linear stack. The whole reason this fork was bought was to play with the shim stacks. Time to order a bunch of shims.

There are a couple of links to shims in this thread but I have not seen a 17.5mm OD x .02mm for sale anywhere. Do you have to get these from Manitou?


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ I went with a 17x0.15 from here: Racing Suspension Products. I bought eight to play with, but so far the 17 is the only one I've used.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> Thats funny I just read that pdf a couple of minutes ago. I like the sound of the linear stack. The whole reason this fork was bought was to play with the shim stacks. Time to order a bunch of shims.
> 
> There are a couple of links to shims in this thread but I have not seen a 17.5mm OD x .02mm for sale anywhere. Do you have to get these from Manitou?


As said by newfangled, Just use a 17mm shim. I would also buy them from the link he posted because the MXtech website keeps getting hacked for some reason. Post your results one you find a stack you like:thumbsup:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

They don't offer shims in a thickness of .02mm. 
You should be looking for .2mm.

FWIW, 
.1mm is approx .004 inch. 
.2mm is approx .008 inch

.02mm is approx .0008 inch


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

PMK said:


> They don't offer shims in a thickness of .02mm.
> You should be looking for .2mm.
> 
> FWIW,
> ...


Thats what I meant to type. Im sure he figured it out when looking them up.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I'd also thought about going to a motorcross shop, but decided online was easier. Anyone know if moto shops would be likely to have the right shims in stock?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

newfangled said:


> I'd also thought about going to a motorcross shop, but decided online was easier. Anyone know if moto shops would be likely to have the right shims in stock?


I would be surprised if they did. Most shops dont tune suspension in house.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

*Some facts about Minute MRD, Absolute+, Mars Air*

MRD Absolute+ shims have not been covered in this thread so far.

My Minute MRD, 100 mm travel, 20 mm thru-axle, came with the following shims, starting from shaft:

narrow clamp shim, 9 x 0.2(*) mm x (1)
wide clamp shim, 11 x 0.1 mm x (1)
blow-off shim, 14 x 0.15 mm x (4)
preload reducer shim, 9 x 0.1 mm x (3)

Which is a strange stack: a lot of equal height blof-off shims, reinforced by a wide clamp shim, and preload reduced by as much as 0.3 mm. The fork was impractical to ride with needle fully closed, too much platform and spiking. Running the needle in semi-open positions was a compromise between plushness and bob/dive.

I have installed a 0.2 mm M6 precision washer (technically it's not a dedicated damper shim) to use as the speed shim and only left 1 blow-off washer (now preload reduced by 0.2 mm) and the narrow clamp washer. I hope that this setup resembles tune EK-012611-02 from the Manitou document, which only mentions non-MRD dampers.

I am yet to test this setup in real use -- waiting for the current cold spell to end.

_____________________
(*) This number is taken from memory.

PS
I'm overhauling the fork completely anyway, and have changed the stock coil spring (color code red, which is medium I guess) for spring code 83-3172, which was sold to me as firm, although it has no color markings. It feels firmer by hand indeed. It's also 3.7 mm wire thickness and 87 mm long, as opposed to 3.4 mm and 77 mm respectively on stock spring.

I had to shorten the rubber top out bumper (the one on spring rod) by 10 mm to accomodate the longer spring.

Also, it's a known fact that there is no spring grease/semi-bath oil separating seal in Mars Air forks. Which results in oil penetrating coil spring chamber in use, where it attempts to dissolve the grease (even if you only leave enough grease to cover stahcnion wall from inside -- they put a *huge* amount of grease in during assembly) and gets thickened in the process. This thickened snot-like mixture has trouble reaching the upper bushing.

What I have done is cut a 4/2 mm heat shrink tube into several 1 cm pieces, piloted them on the spring wire, distributed them around and shrunk them until they are unable to move. I used no grease at all, relying instead on the tube and quality motor oil to protect the stanchion wall.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> MRD Absolute+ shims have not been covered in this thread so far.
> 
> My Minute MRD, 100 mm travel, 20 mm thru-axle, came with the following shims, starting from shaft:
> 
> ...


Instead of using the washer, You should get the results you are looking for by removing one(or maybe even two) of the blow off shims. It would allow the stack to blow off easier while still using damper shims. You can also add the shims you remove to top of the stack to give less platform, but keep a little more HSC overall

Let us know how it rides when you get a chance:thumbsup:


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Instead of using the washer, You should get the results you are looking for by removing one(or maybe even two) of the blow off shims. It would allow the stack to blow off easier while still using damper shims.


I'm going to order some real shims, of course )
But will try my luck with the improvised shim washer for now. I googled up, and they seem to be made of spring steel and with good tolerances. The one I used is 12 mm OD which covers MRD piston ports but clears the raised edge, just like how a speed shim is supposed to fit.



mullen119 said:


> You can also add the shims you remove to top of the stack to give less platform, but keep a little more HSC overall


Would this be a form of 2-stage shimmed damping that was mentioned in this thread?



mullen119 said:


> Let us know how it rides when you get a chance:thumbsup:


Will do!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Would this be a form of 2-stage shimmed damping that was mentioned in this thread?


Yep. It would allow the stack to open partially on smaller hits to feel less spikey, but keep a good amount of damping on big hits.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, here's how that 0.2 mm "speed shim" and 0.15 mm blow-off shim combination feels in room test with needle fully closed: no perceivable blow-off force on low-speed movement, and a suddenly appearing spike feel when I try to compress the fork faster.

Feels like 0.2 mm is way too thick of a speed shim for MRD. At least the improvised type. Since any blow-off force seems to be absent, I'm not even going to try this stack on a real ride.


Next stack to try, starting from shaft:

narrow clamp washer (it's 0.25 mm, I've just measured it)
wide clamp washer
2 x 0.15 mm blow-off shims
1 x 0.1 mm preload reducer
2x 0.1 mm "speed shims", hopefully for 4 times less stiffness than 1 x 0.2 mm (not gonna give up on that idea right away..)


PS
Results are weird. I expected the blow-off force to be about half of what there initially was with 4 blowoff shims and 0.3 mm total preload reduction (which was way too much). But there is still no detectable blow-off force.  And the higher speed spike remains, it just requires me to push the fork faster to trigger it, than it was with 0.2 mm "speed shim".


Anyway.. next stack, starting from shaft:

narrow clamp washer
wide clamp washer
3 x 0.15 mm blow-off shims
2 x 0.1 mm preload reducer
1 x 0.1 mm "speed shim".


PPS
I'm using a very light oil, Stendec Crystal Fork Fluid 2.5W (stock oil that I dumped was definitely heavier). This must be why very low speed compression with needle closed feels like there's an orifice still open. Oil must be having very little trouble flexing whatever "speed shims" that I tried, and (what is mysterious) up to 3 x 0.15 mm blow-off shims, preload reduced by 0.3 mm. 


PPPS
I went back to (almost) the first stack I was going to try, but with wide clamp washer added:

narrow clamp washer
wide clamp washer
1 x 0.15 mm blow-off shim
1 x 0.2 mm "speed shim",

and this time changed the oil to a 1:1 mix of Stendec 5W and 10W. Weeeeeeell... it feels better now (with needle sitll fully closed). Much more explainable. What was preceived as absence of blow-off and a sudden spike, is now a platform-like feeling that with reasonable force opens to what feels like heavily damped travel (real riding will tell whether it's too heavy or not).

I guess that the light oil was (in small quantities) bypassing the (defective?) check valve on the front side of piston. It would have had little effect when riding, but on manual room test even the small blow-off force kicking in at higher speeds was perceived as a spike (which it wasn't, it would open if I pressed harder, but in comparison to very low speed free travel it felt like hitting a wall). It's as if the needle was not fully closed, but instead 1-2 clicks from closed.


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## badburn666 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Marzocchi 55r 08'*

Hi guys,

Im all the way from the Philippines and I read one of you forum posts. I own a Marzocchi 55r 08 model. It seems to lock out and I only get 2-3 inch travel and even less sometimes. This form is supposed to be 160mm travel.

I read that you can drill into it and make it work again.

Im am not really sure how to do it so I am researching for more info and photos as well.

It'll be a great deal of help if you can send me more specific details.

Thanks much!:thumbsup:

regards,

Nicolas


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

badburn666,
you may want to look here, for instance.


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## badburn666 (Jan 29, 2012)

*55r*

yup, read that already. thanks though.

Still need more instructions and illustrations for it.


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## MPH_66 (Dec 26, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Also, it's a known fact that there is no spring grease/semi-bath oil separating seal in Mars Air forks. Which results in oil penetrating coil spring chamber in use, where it attempts to dissolve the grease (even if you only leave enough grease to cover stahcnion wall from inside -- they put a *huge* amount of grease in during assembly) and gets thickened in the process. This thickened snot-like mixture has trouble reaching the upper bushing.
> 
> What I have done is cut a 4/2 mm heat shrink tube into several 1 cm pieces, piloted them on the spring wire, distributed them around and shrunk them until they are unable to move. I used no grease at all, relying instead on the tube and quality motor oil to protect the stanchion wall.


I recently changed the ride kit on my Minute Pro (also has the Mars Air) and can confirm that your grease experience was not an anomoly. The stock spring was covered in huge globs of grease. Manitou's excessive use of grease for the spring seems somewhat strange given that the service manual says you're supposed to "lightly" grease it.

I followed the manual's instructions and lightly greased the new firmer spring. I'll see what the grease does to the semi-bath oil next time I service it. If it looks like it's making a thick soup, I'll give your heat shrink tubing idea a shot.

Do you think it makes any difference in the type of grease used? Manitou used copious amounts of a red grease that seems thinner than the standard white teflon grease I usually use. It seems like using thicker and less grease would reduce the sem-bath/grease soup risk.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

MPH_66 said:


> Do you think it makes any difference in the type of grease used? Manitou used copious amounts of a red grease that seems thinner than the standard white teflon grease I usually use. It seems like using thicker and less grease would reduce the sem-bath/grease soup risk.


Well, when I first overhauled my Mars Air sprung Minute (did it out of the box, before first time installation) I used a little Rock'n'Roll Super Coat on the spring. I also removed most of the red grease, only left a thin layer on stanchion wall. The results were less snotty than with my previous Mars Air and TS Air experiences with other forks, -- a considerable amount of oil actually leaked out of spring side lowers when I started overhauling it the second time (that's when I wrote that post).

Before that, when I used to leave some red grease on the spring itself (still removed most of it before 1st install), I only got several drops of oil from (spring side) lowers on next overhaul -- and the lower leg was invariably filled with goo.

On our more local forum I once suggested devising a seal in the plastic stanchion lower end nut around the compression rod. Some guys have given it a try. A recent successful attempt was to cut a groove in plastic, put a petrol-resistant o-ring in there and polish the rod (as I suggested). I don't yet know how he cut the groove (but see below), but he says that the result is very promising so far -- no oil penetration and negligible stiction.

Edit: he used a dremel.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

This isn't about reshimming, but I'm hoping some of the manitou experts might be able to help out.

I just serviced my 2011 r7 for the first time, and when I was putting it back together it seems like the threads at the bottom of the leftleg/compressionrod are stripped. The manual says to tighten to 45-55 in-lbs, but I can only get it a little more than fingertight and then it spins and spins. I don't think I stripped it, but the threads are just plastic so it seems like it would be an easy thing to do?

Anyway, I'm assuming that running it like this would be a bad thing and that I should try to track down a replacement compressionrod assembly? Or did I miss something during reassembly that's preventing me from tightening it up? Any advice from the experts?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

newfangled,
yes, the plastic nut threads can be stripped. Examine them closely.

Also examine threads in the stanchion, just in case -- maybe there's something that fscked up the plastic thread.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The piston may be spinning in the stanchion. Take the lowers back off and put the bolt back in and tighten it. If the compression rod is spinning with the bolt then the piston is spinning in the stanchion. To fix this, hold the compression rod to stop it from spinning while tightening the bolt. This should clean out the threads and allow you to tighten it when the lowers are attached.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks mullen, I'd considered taking it apart again and threading it in without the lowers, but I was feeling too lazy. I'll give that a shot, though.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Ah, *that* bolt. I thought it's about the plastic nut that you turn with 22 mm wrench. One came from factory with stripped threads recently.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ sorry, yeah it's the metal bolt into plastic threads. I don't think I stripped it because I wasn't able to get any force into it, so either the piston is spinning (hopefully), or it came stripped and was never tight to begin with. We'll see after I take it apart again.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well then, lowers on a R7 (TS Air sprung) fork are best removed and put on with some pressure in air chamber. This preloads the negative spring, which, in turn, presses down on the plastic rod thus preventing it from turning somewhat, together with the force that bolt creates pulling the rod into the bottom of the lower leg. You kind of compress the rod in between the negative spring and the bottom of lower leg.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Well then, lowers on a R7 (TS Air sprung) fork are best removed and put on with some pressure in air chamber. This preloads the negative spring, which, in turn, presses down on the plastic rod thus preventing it from turning somewhat, together with the force that bolt creates pulling the rod into the bottom of the lower leg. You kind of compress the rod in between the negative spring and the bottom of lower leg.


This is good advice. But I was just thinking about it, and 45in/lbs is not more more then finger tight. Its not a bad idea to pick up a torque wrench if you dont have one already. My current fork( RS Lyrik) says 60in/lbs on the foot bolts and I was shocked at how little torque it was. After you put the bath oil in, Put the bolt in the get everything lined up, then take it out and clean it(bolt and lowers) with rubbing alcohol to get any oil off. Then use some blue locktite to keep it from coming loose. (oil and locktite do not mix very well)

If you dont have or cant get access to a torque wrench, 45/in/lbs will be just a hand tight when holding the short side of an allen wrench.(hope I worded that so it makes sense :lol


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

tagged for future reference


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> This is good advice. But I was just thinking about it, and 45in/lbs is not more more then finger tight. Its not a bad idea to pick up a torque wrench if you dont have one already. My current fork( RS Lyrik) says 60in/lbs on the foot bolts and I was shocked at how little torque it was. After you put the bath oil in, Put the bolt in the get everything lined up, then take it out and clean it(bolt and lowers) with rubbing alcohol to get any oil off. Then use some blue locktite to keep it from coming loose. (oil and locktite do not mix very well)
> 
> If you dont have or cant get access to a torque wrench, 45/in/lbs will be just a hand tight when holding the short side of an allen wrench.(hope I worded that so it makes sense :lol


Why, 45 in/lbs is about 5 Nm torque, and that's the typical amount applied on stem bolts, for instance. I use a 0-60 in/lbs torque wrench to install carbon handlebars, and I surely am not able to develop 5 Nm torque by turning the short side of an 4 or 5 mm hex wrench. )

That being said, I do agree that with any of the forks that I worked on (Manitou, RS, Fox, DT Swiss, Magura, Suntour - haven't yet been trusted with a Marzocchi, however), however different methods they all use to retain the rods in the lowers (by the way, Manitou I think is one of the best in this regard), the torque needed is invariably much lower than what could be achieved with the size of fasteners used.

Back to the shim stack topic -- I did several rides on my modified Minute MRD stack (Mars Air, 100 mm travel, firm coil spring, 90 psi in air chamber, rider weight between 75 and 80 kg with gear). It's a low platform and a single 0.1 mm speed shim combination. 2.5W Stendec fork oil. I've always ran it with LSC needle fully closed (my intention was to be able to leave that knob alone for the most riding). The bike is a 2-speed DJ-based 26" hardtail, with plastic pivotal saddle bolted way down.

Well.. the amount of platform is sufficient to climb whatever grades I tried (traction on snow trails permitting). I wonder why the XC factory tune is so much harder -- must be intended for very strong and heavy riders hammering while not pulling on the bars.

The same platform prevents the fork from handling small irregularities, however, which takes away ride comfort. Guess I'll have to become used to that. Platform opens when I hit something that would throw me off with a rigid fork, and that's great.

The fork only bottoms out when I make a serious mistake, like casing a double with my front wheel. Typical maximum landing travel to transition is 75 mm.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Why, 45 in/lbs is about 5 Nm torque, and that's the typical amount applied on stem bolts, for instance. I use a 0-60 in/lbs torque wrench to install carbon handlebars, and I surely am not able to develop 5 Nm torque by turning the short side of an 4 or 5 mm hex wrench. )


I have found that I can put about 60-70in/lbs holding the short side of an allen wrench. I took the time to test to help a riding buddy who didnt have a torque wrench and needed to know for a frame bolt. That said, its not a great way to judge as everyone can create different amounts of torque. I was a hold out for a while on buying a torque wrench, but after hearing of people cracking lowers from over tightening the foot bolts, so I picked one up a few years ago. Now its something I recommend anyone who is serious about working on a bike buys.



J. Random Psycho said:


> Back to the shim stack topic -- I did several rides on my modified Minute MRD stack (Mars Air, 100 mm travel, firm coil spring, 90 psi in air chamber, rider weight between 75 and 80 kg with gear). It's a low platform and a single 0.1 mm speed shim combination. 2.5W Stendec fork oil. I've always ran it with LSC needle fully closed (my intention was to be able to leave that knob alone for the most riding). The bike is a 2-speed DJ-based 26" hardtail, with plastic pivotal saddle bolted way down.
> 
> Well.. the amount of platform is sufficient to climb whatever grades I tried (traction on snow trails permitting). I wonder why the XC factory tune is so much harder -- must be intended for very strong and heavy riders hammering while not pulling on the bars.
> 
> ...


Its good that you found a stack that you like, but I would recommend leaving the dial one click from fully closed and getting a shim stack that you like in that position. You can ride with it fully closed, but you are completely closing off the LSC port and running with oil flowing through the HSC stack only. It wont cause any problems, but you are loosing a over all performance by getting rid of a useful tuning point completely.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Its good that you found a stack that you like, but I would recommend leaving the dial one click from fully closed and getting a shim stack that you like in that position. You can ride with it fully closed, but you are completely closing off the LSC port and running with oil flowing through the HSC stack only. It wont cause any problems, but you are loosing a over all performance by getting rid of a useful tuning point completely.


I thought about that -- but I'll have to use thicker oil because with 2.5W even 1 click from fully closed is enough to make the platform ineffective. I also expect that the effect of some oil flowing through LSC port at every force applied to fork would be not useful enough as to make it handle the small stuff better at speed, but harmful enough to make it bob on every pedal stroke (this is what I wanted to get rid of) -- what do you think on this?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I thought about that -- but I'll have to use thicker oil because with 2.5W even 1 click from fully closed is enough to make the platform ineffective. I also expect that the effect of some oil flowing through LSC port at every force applied to fork would be not useful enough as to make it handle the small stuff better at speed, but harmful enough to make it bob on every pedal stroke (this is what I wanted to get rid of) -- what do you think on this?


 I see what your trying to achieve. I dont know if you will ever find a set up that allows for small bump compliance and pedaling efficiency without some compromise. The closest thing you can get would be to switch to a Fox fork with Terralogic or buy a MILO remote to switch from fully open to fully closed on the handle bars. A set and forget just wont allow for a perfect set up in your situation though.

Tough call.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I have no problem running with the clickers closed. If you can acheive the ride you want with all the oil through the shims it's not a bad thing.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> I see what your trying to achieve. I dont know if you will ever find a set up that allows for small bump compliance and pedaling efficiency without some compromise. The closest thing you can get would be to switch to a Fox fork with Terralogic or buy a MILO remote to switch from fully open to fully closed on the handle bars. A set and forget just wont allow for a perfect set up in your situation though.
> 
> Tough call.


Looks like it. I've been considering Terralogic since 2007, then Fox stopped making them, then resumed, but I was running Manitou forks by that moment. I'm building a true singlespeed now (for XC duties) and am going to put another Manitou fork on it, because I have the parts. If I don't like it I'll face this exact choice, Fox or MILO.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Looks like it. I've been considering Terralogic since 2007, then Fox stopped making them, then resumed, but I was running Manitou forks by that moment. I'm building a true singlespeed now (for XC duties) and am going to put another Manitou fork on it, because I have the parts. If I don't like it I'll face this exact choice, Fox or MILO.


Terralogic is a pretty interesting damper design that makes a lot of sense for XC riding if it works as good as they claim. Its about the only way to get a good platform and keep most small bump compliance. I dont ride a ton of XC, If I did(and had loads of cash) I would consider one myself.

Your set up sounds like its pretty good for what you are looking for though.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Can any that has used the minute with both absolute and ABS+ please tell me which of the systems is more plush in the open position?


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## jdgang (Oct 1, 2009)

They are both the same system. Absolute only had 5 detents from fully open to close while the ABS+ has 7 from fully open to close. They are the same when fully open or fully close.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

So the only advantage is tuneability and detents range, right?
And if you use MILO remote (2 positions, full open and full close) they act exactly the same

now I know the update is not necesary for me, thanks


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## jdgang (Oct 1, 2009)

yes, I do not use the MILO remote for that exact reason. I use fully open, the third detent(where I usually ride) and fully lockout available to me.


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## gabgi (Dec 29, 2008)

I've used ABS and ABS+ ( in Drake ,but it doesn't matter I think) and IMO ABS+ is much more plush in fully open position. ABS+ made my fork more sensitive for small bumps and more linear than with ABS. Tuneability and detents range are additional bonus .


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Absolute is a very different damper, it's nothing like Absolute+.

In Absolute, there are no compression shims, just constant sized oil port plugged with blunt-needle-shaped check valve. And it's the preload of that valve which you adjust with the knob, not port size directly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Absolute + is better compared to the original TPC damper which was similar in design.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

Anyone got the piston head dimensions - in particular the outside diameter?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Same as any minute damper.. I dont want to pull my abs+ unit, but the SPV unit it replaced measured 28.62mm. The abs+ should be the same or very very close.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

On a semi related note, I went for a ride on my coil u-turn D) abs+ minute. Beautiful ride, I love this thing.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

TigWorld said:


> Anyone got the piston head dimensions - in particular the outside diameter?


It would depend on the fork. The Minutes/Towers would be different from the Match, which would be different from the R7. Would also depend on if it was MRD or not.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> On a semi related note, I went for a ride on my coil u-turn D) abs+ minute. Beautiful ride, I love this thing.


This sounds very interesting, please explain........


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Its down on travel currently (as expected), so not 100% done. I used a tora coil u-turn spring. Just have to change the lower leg cap from a seal head to one for a coil. I used the drake lower cap, and a drake top spring cap. Removed the u-turn cap (its just a c-clip), drilled out the drake cap and installed a short rubber bumper and put the c-clip back on. Slips right in and you're on your way! If i had a pike spring, it would be perfect. 

I intended on using all manitou parts for a coil conversion, but they just dont exist. Tried a drake coil pushrod, but its too narrow and falls through the lowers. nixon 145 coil, but its way too long and too fat. The RS u-turn parts end up working better. 

Weight be damned, im faster on the coil and its so so much smoother!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> Its down on travel currently (as expected), so not 100% done. I used a tora coil u-turn spring. Just have to change the lower leg cap from a seal head to one for a coil. I used the drake lower cap, and a drake top spring cap. Removed the u-turn cap (its just a c-clip), drilled out the drake cap and installed a short rubber bumper and put the c-clip back on. Slips right in and you're on your way! If i had a pike spring, it would be perfect.
> 
> I intended on using all manitou parts for a coil conversion, but they just dont exist. Tried a drake coil pushrod, but its too narrow and falls through the lowers. nixon 145 coil, but its way too long and too fat. The RS u-turn parts end up working better.
> 
> Weight be damned, im faster on the coil and its so so much smoother!


That is awesome. Post some pics when your done. I love franken forks. A straight coil Minute is very appealing.


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

One Pivot said:


> Same as any minute damper.. I dont want to pull my abs+ unit, but the SPV unit it replaced measured 28.62mm. The abs+ should be the same or very very close.


Awesome. Cheers.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

And has anybody tried to insert a 2012 ABS+ updated cartridge in a 2008 MRD minute? Or only the 2010 version fits?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

STS said:


> And has anybody tried to insert a 2012 ABS+ updated cartridge in a 2008 MRD minute? Or only the 2010 version fits?


From what I was told by Manitou, Everything is interchangeable from 2006 and newer.


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## labarnett (Mar 14, 2011)

*Help with ABS+ installation*

Hey all, slightly off topic but I just installed the ABS+ damper in my 2007 R7 super 100 TPC. Everything went fine until I tried to tighten the compression rod fixing bolt to the suggested 45-55 inch lbs....the bolt just keeps turning and I can't get it tight enough. I guess the compression rod is spinning around inside the leg? Any guidance? Thanks!


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

labarnett said:


> Hey all, slightly off topic but I just installed the ABS+ damper in my 2007 R7 super 100 TPC. Everything went fine until I tried to tighten the compression rod fixing bolt to the suggested 45-55 inch lbs....the bolt just keeps turning and I can't get it tight enough. I guess the compression rod is spinning around inside the leg? Any guidance? Thanks!


Try adding air to the air spring then finish tightening the bolt. Might just need a little resistance to finish it off.


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## labarnett (Mar 14, 2011)

*tried adding air*

I did add about 90 psi, which helped only slightly.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Take the lowers back off and put the bolt in to clean out the threads. This allows you to hold the compression rod if needed. Sometimes the threads get slightly damaged and they need to get cleaned out. Once it feels like it threads in smoothly, put the lowers back on see if it works.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

labarnett said:


> I did add about 90 psi, which helped only slightly.


Impact wrench... an air tool will do it also.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

You'd have to have some serious balls to impact that on! Thats asking for a disaster.

Get it as tight as you can get it, lock out the compression and go bounce down the street for 5 minutes. It'll seat, and tighten up afterwards.


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## labarnett (Mar 14, 2011)

*Fixed, thanks*

Thanks guys, I just rode it around for a few minutes and was then able to tighten it up to the correct torque. Good suggestion One Pivot. It's not that big of a deal to take it apart again and clean the threads, but I was glad I did not have to go to that effort again.

Obviously I haven't gone on any real rides yet, but the new damper seems to be doing what it claims...more plush in the first 2 inches of travel and more stiff upon deeper compression. Hopefully this will limit the substantial brake dive I experienced with the original damper.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Good stuff, glad that worked.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

I have just got the ABS+ damper to replace the 2008 absolute one

But I'm confused about the oil
for my 130mm MRD The manitou service manual says 125mm, but in the instructions that comes with the new damper says 110mm
may be ABS+ needs less oil?
which is the correct one?

thanks


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

STS said:


> I have just got the ABS+ damper to replace the 2008 absolute one
> 
> But I'm confused about the oil
> for my 130mm MRD The manitou service manual says 125mm, but in the instructions that comes with the new damper says 110mm
> ...


I would go with what the instructions for the new damper says. If the oil level is to low you will know, But I think the ABS+ damper is slightly longer allowing for the lower oil level.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Thanks,
I will mount it this week
And I'm planning a tunned remote instead of milo, to be able to select 3 potitions: open, low platform and lock, that are what me (and most) use
I will post it her if it works


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

You might have a problem with the middle position. Unlike the original ABS damper, ABS+ only gives a platform feel on the last click. The first 6 clicks work as low speed compression and slow the movement of the fork, but do not have a platform threshold to break.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> You'd have to have some serious balls to impact that on! Thats asking for a disaster.
> 
> Get it as tight as you can get it, lock out the compression and go bounce down the street for 5 minutes. It'll seat, and tighten up afterwards.


Thats good to know, I never heard this suggestion. but if it works it can save a lot of time.:thumbsup: I would give you rep, but it says I need to spread some Rep around before I can rep you again:skep:


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> You might have a problem with the middle position. Unlike the original ABS damper, ABS+ only gives a platform feel on the last click. The first 6 clicks work as low speed compression and slow the movement of the fork, but do not have a platform threshold to break.


Strictly speaking, this depends on oil viscosity. The thicker the oil, the less pronounced is platform loss when LSC knob is rotated counter clockwise (platform is still there, but it requires higher shaft speeds to take effect and then overcome).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Strictly speaking, this depends on oil viscosity. The thicker the oil, the less pronounced is platform loss when LSC knob is rotated counter clockwise (platform is still there, but it requires higher shaft speeds to take effect and then overcome).


Thats only partially true. Platform by definition means that there is a threshold that needs to be broken to allow the fork to move. The way the ABS+ damper is designed, the only way to have a true platform is to make all the oil flow through the shims. If oil is able to flow around the shim stack(through the LSC port) there would be no threshold that needs to be broken to allow movement. Thicker oil can allow the oil to move more slowly through the LSC port, but the effects are very small and still not a true platform since the fork can move, just slowly. This is why ABS+ is better compared to TPC and not the original ABS which was a true platform style damper. (and why Manitou calls it TPC technology, Absolute+)


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

That's exactly the first difference I appreciated with absolute
But I had a problem when installing Abs+
When trying to insert the damper it was too hard (it came in locked position from factory!) and pulling it out made the long cylinder inside the leg to go out with it
So now I don't know if the oil must be only inside that cylinder once mounted again, or also around it
Quantity would be very different

Do you know how it is?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

STS,
seems like you've got an MRD fork. The long cylinder (damper tube) should contain all the damping oil, and no oil is supposed to be in the space between stanchion walls and the damper tube. This is how weight loss is achieved with Minute/R7 (and I guess also Marvel Pro now) MRD style dampers.

You will have to disassemble the fork to get the tube back in place (this is best done with rebound assembly unscrewed from stanchion).


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

Thanks
I manage to insert it easy from the top, fill with oil and insert the ABS+
Seems it works correctly
And it feels more plush than absolute in the open sets


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

Anyone have a link to the Manitou tuning guide? The site appears down.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

Aaron1017 said:


> Anyone have a link to the Manitou tuning guide? The site appears down.


This one? https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-s3OzrP-sd0ZWI4MjdkZDEtNTcyYS00MDhmLThhMmUtMDM2ZGFlNGUwZGQw


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## Aaron1017 (Jun 1, 2010)

mattsavage said:


> This one? https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-s3OzrP-sd0ZWI4MjdkZDEtNTcyYS00MDhmLThhMmUtMDM2ZGFlNGUwZGQw


YES! Thanks!


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> You might have a problem with the middle position. Unlike the original ABS damper, ABS+ only gives a platform feel on the last click. The first 6 clicks work as low speed compression and slow the movement of the fork, but do not have a platform threshold to break.


I dont know about a problem.. you might kinda like it! Depending on your shimstack, the middle position gives a pretty firm, very brake dive resistant setting which still gobbles up chatter.

Its really so good, I think it kills any need or desire for a true harsh platform.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> I dont know about a problem.. you might kinda like it! Depending on your shimstack, the middle position gives a pretty firm, very brake dive resistant setting which still gobbles up chatter.
> 
> Its really so good, I think it kills any need or desire for a true harsh platform.


Agreed, I dont know if "Problem" was the correct word to use "lol"


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Hey guys, I am having a bit of an issue with my new Minute Pro. I weigh about 185 with the stock spring installed. Even with 110 psi, the fork blows through its travel too easily. It will bottom if I open the Absolute+ dial and bounce on the front end of the bike. The sag is just about right. Will the firm spring be what I'm looking for, or is that only for sag? There is little midstroke support, and it bottoms easily even with full compression Thoughts?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The firmer spring should help. I find stock manitou springs on the weak side. I'm 150lbs and the stock spring on mine was to soft.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

I am also thinking about getting some shims, but the trail stack I want to try requires a 13x1.1 clamp washer. None of the shim places carry anything that thick. Where can I get one of those?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

1.1mm thick is about the thickness of a regular washer from a hardware store. I would head to a local hardware store with some calipers or something you know is 1 mm thick and compare.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Clamp shims don't flex a noticable amount, so any thickness will do as long as you don't run out of room.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Good call. Thanks guys!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

This thread has gotten much bigger then I would have ever thought. I wanted to edit my post to add some of the great info that this thread has brought up, but for some reason I cant. I figured this is the best way to get the information towards the beginning of the thread to keep people from looking through the whole thing.

The most important things are:

1. Thanks to Solitone, we have the Manitou ABS+ tuning guide which includes dyno charts and many different shim stack combinations. Its probably the single best find this thread has produced (thanks Solitone)

This link should work:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-s...M2ZGFlNGUwZGQw

2. Spring rate needs to be set up correctly. I get PM's and hear of people trying to get their fork to feel right when it is way under/over sprung. Spring rate trumps damping and should always be set up correctly prior to trying different shim stack configurations.

3. A good place to order shims is MX tech.
MX-Tech Suspensions

Im sure there is more that I should add to this list, but I am out of time. If anyone thinks of anything else, feel free to post it up.:thumbsup:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I tried quoting my first post to get it on the first page sine it wont let me edit my original post, but it didnt work. Oh well, I tried.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

mullen119,
try contacting a moderator perhaps? They may be in a position to alter editability-expiration forum rules for you.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thats a good thought. I just sent the first Mod I found a PM to see if they can help. Im glad this thread has helped so many people, I just wonder how many dont take the time to read past the first page or two. Most of the good information in in the later pages.


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

Which stack is the '10 drake (mullen p1)? I don't see one in the pdf that exactly matches it.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

rlouder,
can you write your stack down, in order it's installed, with shim thicknesses? Then we could be able to tell what to expect from it.


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

J. Random Psycho said:


> rlouder,
> can you write your stack down, in order it's installed, with shim thicknesses? Then we could be able to tell what to expect from it.


It's a '10 drake, so I assume it's just like mullens on page 1. I was looking through the pdf to see what to try before I take the damper out. They only made one model of the drake in 10, so I can't imagine it would be different from his.

I'm looking for better hs small bump absorption if you want to point me in the right direction. The drake's stack looks much stiffer than anything in the pdf except the dj, so I may just remove a big shim and see what happens.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

rlouder said:


> I'm looking for better hs small bump absorption if you want to point me in the right direction. The drake's stack looks much stiffer than anything in the pdf except the dj, so I may just remove a big shim and see what happens.


Yes, removing a big (platform) shim is a good start.
You can also play with platform shim preload washers.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rlouder said:


> Which stack is the '10 drake (mullen p1)? I don't see one in the pdf that exactly matches it.


its not listed. My best guess is because my drake is a 2010 and the guide is from 2011.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Removing a platform shim will help if you want to try something without buying any shims. But if you dont use the compression as a lock out, I would suggest adding a velocity shim to reduce the platform feel and in return, allow for more oil flow through the shim stack.

Something like trail stack # EK-012611-03

If you reeeaaallly dont care about about platform, A stack from the linear series would give you the best small bump compliance. I used a linear stack for a while and loved it.


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## Camaleon (May 10, 2006)

This is a great post.
What set up will you use in a Manitou Tower Pro 100mm for a 220lbs rider on a 29 HT that will mainly be use for XC
It comes with the firm spring, should I get the Xfirm and what shim configuration will be the best?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I would only change shim stacks if your not happy with your forks performance. Its hard to suggest something without knowing what areas of performance you are looking to improve as well


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Can anyone confirm whether Tower Pro comes indeed with the XC stack?

This is what I supposed in a previous post, but I have no official information. Has anybody inspected their shim stack?

Tower Pro will be my next fork, and so I'm curious 


--> UPDATE:

Just wrote to Manitou's customer service asking this question.

In very few minutes they answered that usually Tower Pro's come with the Trail stack. However, some distributors in Europe have ordered them with the XC stack. 

Difficult to say it for sure, so. I don't know if this is true in the US as well. Anyway, it's likely that your stack is trail-tuned, not XC-tuned.

P.S. Once again Manitou's support has been unbelievably quick! Great!!


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## rlouder (Jun 26, 2007)

mullen119 said:


> its not listed. My best guess is because my drake is a 2010 and the guide is from 2011.


Took mine out yesterday. My '10 drake came with one of xc stacks from the pdf: two .008 platform shims.

With only one installed, it has the reduced platform I'm looking for, but it's too soft after it breaks. Time to order some shims.

------------------------------------

*100mm*

------------------------------------


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

rlouder said:


> Took mine out yesterday. My '10 drake came with one of xc stacks from the pdf: two .008 platform shims.
> 
> With only one installed, it has the reduced platform I'm looking for, but it's too soft after it breaks. Time to order some shims.


how much travel does your drake have? I feel like mine is a freak. :lol:


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*2011 Minute Expert*



HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share.


I haven't opened my 2011 Minute Expert yet, as I have been pretty happy with it till now, but I think mine has the XC stack (instead of the trail stack) as well.

I say this because platform is very strong. When in the "MAX" position (highest LSC damping) it's completely locked-out--it seems almost impossible to move the shaft!

I bought this fork aftermarket, from an online shop, but it might well be that it is an OEM unmounted from another bike frame--don't know whether this can explain the difference in shim stack.

I'll have a look into the HSC soon when I'll service that fork. In the meanwhile they're going to ship me my new 2012 Tower Pro. Now that I have a better understanding of how dampers work and of the characteristics I'm looking for, I'll be experimenting different shim stacks on this new fork. Hopefully I'll find my ideal setup.

Thanks to all for the wealth of information you guys posted on this thread! :thumbsup:

UPDATE:

I've finally opened my Abs+ damper, and I confirm what I suspected--I have the XC stack (one small clam shim, followed by two platform shims and the piston).

Unfortunately I cannot experiment with different stacks at the moment, cause I was superficial when I first tried to remove the compression damper, and now my LSC adjustment doesn't work anymore, as reported here and in the following posts.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Anybody have any info on adjusting the rebound stack? I'm thinking about trying to speed up the high speed rebound a bit while slowing the low speed down a tad. Just remove a shim? I haven't been in the damper yet to see what's there... 2011 Minute Pro fork, fwiw.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Anybody have any info on adjusting the rebound stack? I'm thinking about trying to speed up the high speed rebound a bit while slowing the low speed down a tad. Just remove a shim? I haven't been in the damper yet to see what's there... 2011 Minute Pro fork, fwiw.


Rebound tuning is a lot different then compression tuning. When tuning compression, there are a lot of different variables at play(size of rider, size of hit, speed of hit, shape of obstacle...) When tuning rebound, the number of variables is much less because the only force that needs to be controlled is the spring, which generally speaking, is a consistent force. When a fork nears the end of its stroke, the spring force is much higher. This is the point at which the HSR shims will open. This is why HSR is often refereed to as ending stroke rebound by manufactures. The term "ending stroke rebound" is not technically accurate, but it helps people who do not understand the technical aspects correctly set up their rebound.

When it comes to tuning rebound on a fork, Manufactures tend to get it set up pretty well because its not as complicated. Extremely light riders who use very little air/light coil springs can benefit from removing a shim since the spring rate is much lower. Extremely heavy riders can benefit by adding a shim to compensate for the higher air pressures/ heavier coils. In most cases its not needed.

This is only the case for forks though. Rear shocks have the added variable of leverage ratios and this is when rebound tune becomes very important, and manufactures dont necessarily get it right.

Hope that helps:thumbsup:


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*TPC vs. Absolute vs. Absolute+*



mullen119 said:


> This is why ABS+ is better compared to TPC and not the original ABS which was a true platform style damper. (and why Manitou calls it TPC technology, Absolute+)


How does a platform-style damper (like the old Absolute) work, when compared to a shim-focused damper (like the old TPC and the new Absolute+)?

Is there any doc explaining the difference between old TPC, old Absolute, and new Absolute+?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Old Absolute is entirely different from either TPC or Absolute+. Instead of shims, it has a spring loaded needle-shaped piston. The top knob adjusts preload of that spring. Once pressure created by rebound rod entering the damper at compression stroke exceeds that preload, the piston opens and Absolute works like an orifice style damper.

TPC is different from Absolute+ in that it doesn't have a raised edge on the top of its piston, against which platform shims could be preloaded, so it cannot create platformness.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> How does a platform-style damper (like the old Absolute) work, when compared to a shim-focused damper (like the old TPC and the new Absolute+)?
> 
> Is there any doc explaining the difference between old TPC, old Absolute, and new Absolute+?


I never had the old ABS damper, so cant comment on how it works. In most cases, Platform style dampers have a spring that holds the LSC port closed. When oil pressure builds, the spring is pushed back opening the LSC port, and allowing the fork to move. Control of the threshold(point at which the port opens) is done by controlling spring tension on the spring that holds the valve shut. Lots of variations on how this is done, but thats the basic design of platform style dampers.

TPC is pretty much the same design as ABS+. ABS+ just has a few tweaks to the system that allows it to work a little better, and give it more options for tuning. I believe the TPC damper didnt allow you to preload the shim stack.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Thank you both for your sharing!

You speak of preloading platform shims. What does this mean?

As for Abs, if I understand it right, such an old damper had just one circuit, orifice-like, acting as both a LSC and a HSC?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Absolute+ platform shims have large enough diameter to reach that edge. When you tighten the nut that holds piston and shim stack assembly on damper shaft, the shaft, which is stepped above shim stack to a larger diameter, presses on the stack. This pressure deflects platform shims statically, so that their perimeters rest on that raised piston edge, and their centers are lower than their respective perimeters.

In contrast, speed shims and preload reducing shims have smaller diameter to avoid contact with raised piston edge. Any smaller shims placed below platform shims end up not preloaded.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

:thumbsup:


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

zenkem said:


> Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com


BTW, this link explains the preload thing as well.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

The Golden Wrench: Manitou Absolute+ Tuning Awesomeness


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gotta love fork tuning.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Abs+ tuning kit*



newfangled said:


> I wonder how much the kit will cost? The moto ones online are upwards of $100, which isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but which seems geared more to a shop/team than to the home tinkerer.


Yes it is. It retails for around 200$. I'll defenitely opt for spare shims!

Just wondering what ID size is needed? 8 mm?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> Yes it is. It retails for around 200$. I'll defenitely opt for spare shims!
> 
> Just wondering what ID size is needed? 8 mm?


8mm is correct


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Manitou ABS+ Tune kit Decline March 2012*

I think the following article is very interesting indeed. It gives hints as to how to zone in the candidate right tune for you:
Manitou ABS+ Tune kit Decline March 2012


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## kos83 (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi
Very interesting post.

I have a circus 130 and i want to make it more trail friendly.I mean use more travel and be more plush but keep a good bottoming resistance.I do agressive trail with jump and some dj. .

Change the spring for a softer is the best start ? 
For now i run it with no air ( i weigh 147 lbs) and i use less than 3/4 of the travel only on big impacts.

Big thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

kos83 said:


> Hi
> Very interesting post.
> 
> I have a circus 130 and i want to make it more trail friendly.I mean use more travel and be more plush but keep a good bottoming resistance.I do agressive trail with jump and some dj. .
> ...


first thing to do is to check your sag. Since its a DJ fork, its probably over sprung and moving to a softer spring would help. It also has a very stiff shim stack, so removing a shim should help with small bump sensitivity.


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## kos83 (Jun 17, 2011)

thank for the answer.

the stock spring is a firm. i think i'm around 10/15 % of sag so a medium will be better.
i try to understand the function of each shim but i'm a bit lost.
It's the blow-off shim i must remove ?
i saw in the tuning guide, the difference between trail and jump stack is a velocity dependant shim (pink) and 2 blow-off shims (blue). What is the function of the pink velocity dependant shim ?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

kos83 said:


> thank for the answer.
> 
> the stock spring is a firm. i think i'm around 10/15 % of sag so a medium will be better.
> i try to understand the function of each shim but i'm a bit lost.
> ...


Generally speaking, Think of blow off shims as platform shims, meaning the more blow off shims you have, the more platform your shim stack will give you.

Speed shims are very similar to preload reducing shims. They reduce the preload on the shim stack making the blow off shims open easier. The difference between Speed shims and a preload reducing shim is that a velocity shim adds to the damping characteristics of the shim stack, and a preload reducing shim does not.

Velocity shims(are used as speed shims as well), are extra shims that add to the over all damping curve, but do not have an effect on platform. Instead, they control how the blow off shims open, giving extra support after the intial opening of the blow off shims.

It takes time to understand what exactly is going on. The Dyno charts help a ton when narrowing down the possibilities, but experimenting is the best way to learn what exactly is going on and how each shim effects the feel of the fork. The main thing for you to realize is that your stock shim stack is very stiff. It only allows oil to pass on very hard hits. Removing one platform shim is a good start to making the fork more trail friendly.:thumbsup:


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

may have missed it, i did not read this entire thread but there a rule of thumb what shims/order you should have for a given rider weight?

Ie; if I weight 210lbs what shim stack should I have for the best ride etc?

J-


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jjc155 said:


> may have missed it, i did not read this entire thread but there a rule of thumb what shims/order you should have for a given rider weight?
> 
> Ie; if I weight 210lbs what shim stack should I have for the best ride etc?
> 
> J-


Its a little more complicated then just weight. You have to take into account what characteristics you are looking to achieve. Do you want more platform? Less platform? More overall damping? Better small bump compliance? better pedal efficiency?


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## kos83 (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks again !!

so first step i will try a softer spring and start the experiment  
Hope i won't create a frankenstein fork 

I will report the result here


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Its a little more complicated then just weight. You have to take into account what characteristics you are looking to achieve. Do you want more platform? Less platform? More overall damping? Better small bump compliance? better pedal efficiency?


copy makes sense. I am putting my fork on tomorrow so I will see how i feels once I get it dialed in.

Just curious what is "platform."

J-


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jjc155 said:


> copy makes sense. I am putting my fork on tomorrow so I will see how i feels once I get it dialed in.
> 
> Just curious what is "platform."
> 
> J-


Platform is when the fork is locked out, how much pressure is takes to break the lock out and allow the fork to move. More platform = stiffer lock out. Less platform means a lighter lock out. Its all depends on what you want.


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Platform is when the fork is locked out, how much pressure is takes to break the lock out and allow the fork to move. More platform = stiffer lock out. Less platform means a lighter lock out. Its all depends on what you want.


roger, sort of what I thought

thanks

J-


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Don't know if I missed it, but I'd say it'd be important to know how much the bottom bolt under the piston should be tightened. The tighter, the more the blow-off shims get preloaded, as they flex more.

I can't find any torque figure in Manitou's tuning guide. How much do you tighten that bolt?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Tighten it all the way. The amount of preload on the shims should be set by the stack itself and not the bolt that holds the piston on :thumbsup:


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

But not so hard as to strip the thread or break off the end of shaft.. didn't happen to me yet, but that kind of disaster looks doable.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

If I torque my bolt a bunch it will deform the single shim that is preloaded by the spring on the bolt side of the piston.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

rupps5 said:


> If I torque my bolt a bunch it will deform the single shim that is preloaded by the spring on the bolt side of the piston.


Proceed very carefully with that shim -- it should not deform at all if everything is assembled correctly. It's possible to bend it permanently, thus creating significant oil bypass around the compression shim stack.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Tighten it all the way. The amount of preload on the shims should be set by the stack itself and not the bolt that holds the piston on :thumbsup:


Regarding this issue, Randy Grob of ManitouTech wrote me:


> you should torque that nut to.... (2.3 - 2.8 N-M)..(20-25 in-lb )


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Great info!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*How fun!*

A new Abs+ damper for my Minute arrived yesterday. So today I replaced the one that I had broken last week.. :madman:

But before I unmounted the piston to inspect the shim stack--now I knew how to do it properly 

Again, I found out that the new damper came with the production XC stack, as there were 2 blow-off shims, i think 19 x 0.20 mm.

I had hoped for a Trail stack, to try the effect of a speed shim. But anyway, I removed one of the blow-off shims to reduce platform. Till now I had been riding with the production XC stack, and I found 514 N of platform too much for me. With just one shim, platform is reduced to something like 257 N, which I feared would be too little though.

Well, I tried it for a short one hour ride and.. What a ride! True, I can feel bobbing when I climb uphill and push heavily on the pedals out of saddle. But I'm not particulaty keen on out of saddle pedalling, so platform may well be just what I need.

On the other hand, when descending on very rough rocky tracks I can now turn the adjuster to MAX-3, and the fork is so smoother. I think this depends on reduced brake dive, allowing for better use of the fork's travel.

I could descend faster, with less fatigue, feeling more secure, and feeling better terrain complaince. Although there were many pretty big stones, it was as if the front-end was stuck to the track. So much fun! :thumbsup:

Now I'm curious and want to try other configs. I'll buy some shims, cause I want to see what happens with a velocity shim. Why didn't I try it earlier? 

BTW, I ride a front, and weigh 154 lbs. May be useful for comparison.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

HomegrownMN said:


> Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
> I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
> Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.
> 
> Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.


yes, I have the same fork and I confirm that the piston is made of red plastic.

This is not the case with the new Abs+ damper I recently bought, to replace the stock one I'd broken. This new one has a beutifully anodized aluminum piston.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Manitou's damping curves*

I was looking again at Manitou's graphs.

How comes that the Production XC stack CV-11411-03 gives 514 N of platform, when stack CV-11411-01 gives 220 N?

The first stack has 2 blow-off shims .2 mm thick, while the latter has only one blow-off shim .15 thick.

I would expect 257 N with one platform shim .2 mm thick. Therefore, with one just .15 mm thick I would expect around 108 N..

Am I missing something, or there's an error in the tuning guide?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> I was looking again at Manitou's graphs.
> 
> How comes that the Production XC stack CV-11411-03 gives 514 N of platform, when stack CV-11411-01 gives 220 N?
> 
> ...


Interesting. My guess(and its only a guess) is that with just one shim, the preload is higher causing a higher blow off. Each additional shim added to the stack will have less preload, making them contribute less to the blow off point then the previous shim.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Interesting. My guess(and its only a guess) is that with just one shim, the preload is higher causing a higher blow off. Each additional shim added to the stack will have less preload, making them contribute less to the blow off point then the previous shim.


I don't know whether this may be the case with only one shim.

But if you compare CV-11411-03 (Production "XC Stack") with CV-11411-07, you'll see that platform increases from 514 N to 750 N.

As explained in the caption, _the %increase in platform equals %increase in shim qty when thickness is equal_.

If each additional shim added less platform, you wouldn't have such a linear increase when adding a 3rd shim either.

Also this explanation (from shim index page) suggests that something doesn't add up in CV-11411-01 graphs:


> When stacking up shims of the same OD, increasing quantity has a linear increase in stiffness, resulting in a linear change in the damping force. Thickness however, has a cubic relationship to stiffness (t3), therefore, increasing the thickness of an individual shim has a significantly higher effect on damping force.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I see what your saying. The graphs are going to be taken straight from a dyno program, so the graph and the amount of force is going to be correct. If there is a miss print(seems like there is), its going to be on the side where it says the shim sizes. After taking a hard look at the graphs and stacks, I am thinking that its a miss print and the graph shows a single .2mm shim rather then the listed .15

Good catch, something doesnt add up for sure.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> After taking a hard look at the graphs and stacks, I am thinking that its a miss print and the graph shows a single .2mm shim rather then the listed .15


Yes, that's what I also think. Just wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing something I don't know. Thanks!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I don't know if it's the new damper that still needs to break in, or if it's the different shim stack I'm using, but now I can feel a litlle noise when the fork compresses.

Perhaps is the sound of oil flowing through the shim when blow-off force is reached. 

Before I had so much platform that I always opened the LSC to MAX-7 or even MAX-8 (full open) when riding downhill. So oil always flowed through the LSC, not shim stack.

Now, with only 1 platform shim, things are different. I can feel the HSC coming into play, and i adjust the knob no more than MAX-5. 

Could this explain the noise?

Unfortunately I havent tried it full open, so i cant tell for sure..


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

*Updated Abs+ Tuning Guide*

Here's the last version of Manitou's Abs+ Tuning Guide

It has no major changes from the one previously posted, but there is an introduction page that might be interesting for newbies.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

solitone said:


> I don't know if it's the new damper that still needs to break in, or if it's the different shim stack I'm using, but now I can feel a litlle noise when the fork compresses.
> 
> Perhaps is the sound of oil flowing through the shim when blow-off force is reached.
> 
> ...


It could be that you lost too much oil, and now you get some cavitation because of airbubbles reaching the piston.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

two-one said:


> It could be that you lost too much oil, and now you get some cavitation because of airbubbles reaching the piston.


Thanks for the info.

I don't know. Actually I checked oil level before I reassembled the damper and added some oil to get the specified 87 mm.

But.. is it that simple? I basically just added some oil and checked level again..


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Oil moving past the shims will make some noise, but make sure you have the correct oil level.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I can't find 17.5 mm shims. Is it better to use 17 mm or 18 mm shims, as an alternative? Or is it worth trying both? 

I'm not sure whether 18 mm is still a speed shim. Perhaps it is large enough to touchr the border of the piston, and so it's a platform shim actually?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

You want shims that lay flat and still cover the holes..

I wonder if there is a method to precisely grind 0.5 mm off a shim, so that shim remains otherwise intact. Like clamping it in between a pair of thick, rigid discs precisely 17.5 mm in diameter, and dremeling off the rest.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Oil moving past the shims will make some noise, but make sure you have the correct oil level.


Yes, I need to check it again, as I didn't follow the exact procedure when refilling last time.

According to Manitou's Service Guide you should:


> Pour oil into the stanchion leg until it is about a quarter of the way up. Cover the hole in the stanchion with a rag and cycle the fork 7-10 times. *Failure to do this will cause an incorrect oil height*. After cycling the fork, continue filling the stanchion leg with oil to the oil height specified on the Oil Height Chart found in this manual for your fork model.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Go with 17. I believe 18mm will hit the lip on the piston.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

J. Random Psycho said:


> You want shims that lay flat and still cover the holes


A 17 mm shim would cover the holes, wouldn't it? One of the documented velocity shims is 15 mm, so I assume that 17 mm would work well.

Have you found 17.5 mm shims somewhere?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

solitone said:


> A 17 mm shim would cover the holes, wouldn't it? One of the documented velocity shims is 15 mm, so I assume that 17 mm would work well.
> 
> Have you found 17.5 mm shims somewhere?


It feel like you are way over thinking this :lol:

Just go with a 17mm shim and be done with it. The only place to get a 17.5mm shim would be from Manitou. .5mm is not going to be a noticeable difference.

You also dont have to follow the charted stacks exactly, they are just a few options to show you the differences and how different shim combinations change the oil flow. By now, you have a very good understanding of how each shim can effect the stack and if you wanted to make a custom stack that is in between one of the listed stacks, you have the knowledge to do so:thumbsup:


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the info! I'll go with 17 mm, plus several other shims 

UPDATE

In the end I contacted Manitou's support and they kindly sent me several 17.5 mm speed shims by post for free!

I'm very impressed on how helpful and customer-focused they are. I'm not used to such attitude here in Italy..


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> Oil moving past the shims will make some noise, but make sure you have the correct oil level.





solitone said:


> Yes, I need to check it again, as I didn't follow the exact procedure when refilling last time.


I've checked oil level again, this time following all steps explained in Manitou's Service Guide, but the damper is still noisy when compressing.

Even with LSC all open, noise is there, so perhaps it's not the sound of oil through shims. Don't know, to me it seems the noise of the foam..

Anyhow, apparently it works and so I don't worry for the time being.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

solitone,
does the noise resemble the sounds made when someone or something is hastily devouring semi-liquefied food, chewing with their mouth open? If so, this is normal I think.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, I believe your description of that sound is accuarate 

I never noticed it with the previous abs+ damper that came stock with the fork. After breaking it during maintenance I replaced it with a new one and now I hear that noise.

Not too bad, though, just something different than before. I'll see whether that noise diminishes with usage.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Both my forks make noise on compression, and rebound. If your oil level is correct, its not something to worry about.


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## BikeDestroyer (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm so glad I found this site. I'm an experienced off-road motorcycle rider/racer but a noob with the mountain bike. I just picked up a '13 Rockhopper 29. My first ride out on it beat the crap out of my arms and upper body. The stock Suntour fork only had 1" of travel with preload all the way out and no other adjustments (pile of crap if you ask me).
I found this forum and began my search for a good fork with the ability to tune it. From the cost perspective, reviews on here and reading how the Manitou forks work I ended up buying a Tower Expert. 
Now after reading this entire thread I have no doubt that I made the right choice. I can't wait to get it on the bike and try it out. 
Thanks to those who give a wealth of information here. This has made my job as a newbie so much easier.


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## dubk (Mar 31, 2012)

Can anyone help me out? I took apart my ABS+ damper to get familiar with it, and I thought I had installed it correctly but the knob does four full rotations with a lot of clicks before it locks out. I'm reading that there should be about six click settings for the knob. Verification please?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

But does rotating the knob indeed lock and unlock the fork?

This is strange, because you're right--6 or 7 clicks (about half a turn) is all that is needed to fully open or close the damper.


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## dubk (Mar 31, 2012)

solitone said:


> But does rotating the knob indeed lock and unlock the fork?
> 
> This is strange, because you're right--6 or 7 clicks (about half a turn) is all that is needed to fully open or close the damper.


It will eventually lock after the four full rotations. I'm looking at the ABS+ shop drawings and can't figure out if I re-installed it incorrectly, and the service manual isn't much help. Is there a proper step-by-step write up on installation?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

I can't see how an incorrect installation could result in that behaviour. The lock-unlock mechanism of the abs+ damper cannot be changed--it will take about half a rotation.

Have you tried to unmount again the top cap? If you turn the knob, how much does it rotate? Half a turn as it should?

If so, you probably did not put the little springs and balls is the right way,or perhaps you didn't close the top screw at the right torque?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Did you do anything to the damper after taking it out? If so, what did you do?


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## dubk (Mar 31, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Did you do anything to the damper after taking it out? If so, what did you do?


Didn't do anything but have a look since I didn't have the shims, just wanted to see how difficult it was to remove. I had a semi-difficult time removing it and used needle nose pliers to gently grab and pull. I replaced the oil and pushed the damper back in afterwards as a whole piece using the gland nut and socket.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

dubk said:


> Didn't do anything but have a look since I didn't have the shims, just wanted to see how difficult it was to remove. I had a semi-difficult time removing it and used needle nose pliers to gently grab and pull. I replaced the oil and pushed the damper back in afterwards as a whole piece using the gland nut and socket.


Where did you grab? From what you are describing, it sounds like the needle(that covers the port) is broken, or becoming unscrewed as you turn the ABS+ dial.

I would take the damper back out, and turn the little hex nut that controls the LSC needle and see if you can figure out what is happening. It should move about half a turn between fully open and fully closed. Hopefully with the damper out, the problem will be obvious.


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## dubk (Mar 31, 2012)

mullen119 said:


> Where did you grab? From what you are describing, it sounds like the needle(that covers the port) is broken, or becoming unscrewed as you turn the ABS+ dial.
> 
> I would take the damper back out, and turn the little hex nut that controls the LSC needle and see if you can figure out what is happening. It should move about half a turn between fully open and fully closed. Hopefully with the damper out, the problem will be obvious.


I grabbed the lip of the hole where the rod/needle inserts into the damper. I'll pull the damper and inspect but I fear you're correct and I may have damaged it. Do you think I can repair or should I buy another? And is there a certain way I should remove the damper from the leg to keep from further damaging it? Thanks for the assist.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

It doesnt sound like you did anything wrong. Its best to grab it with your hand and pull it out though. I lean more towards the "its unscrewing itself" theory because if it was broken, I would think that it would not work at all. 

Take it apart and see if the LSC hex keeps turning and maybe post a few pictures if you can.


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## dubk (Mar 31, 2012)

You were right on the dot, the hex was unscrewing and the top nut came out but the damper remained in the leg. I pulled it out, cleaned it up, put some more loctite, and now it's perfect. I get six clicks and then full lockout. Thanks for the help!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Awesome, Im glad it worked out for you:thumbsup:


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## pedz (Nov 10, 2012)

i'm new here and just recently got Manitou R7 100mm pro here in Philippines. i weight 210lbs and pump 110psi. that gives me 10% sag. 

i want something like this
10-15mm sag
10- 15 mm a little hard during hard packs
60-65mm plush for trails 
10 mm hard to keep out from bottoming

i ride mostly XC that why i got this fork


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

pedz said:


> i'm new here and just recently got Manitou R7 100mm pro here in Philippines. i weight 210lbs and pump 110psi. that gives me 10% sag.
> 
> i want something like this
> 10-15mm sag
> ...


Looks like you need an XC stack with some customized platform.
Given your weight, "a little hard" can mean factory stack will do (factory stacks can differ batch to batch, sometimes they are not way too thick).

To make use of the factory platform, you'll have to ride with LSC port nearly closed (red knob clockwise).


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Its kinda hard to follow what your looking for.


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## pedz (Nov 10, 2012)

hahaha

btw, when i turn to lock-out (platform) i can still push it down. i believe we can still make this more solid by adding "Blow-Off Shim 19mm x 0.2t" am i right?

then eliminating brake dive when adjuster fully open, we need to add "Velocity Dependant Shim 17.5mm x 0.20t" right? 

i rode my bike yesterday just inside the village, trying to find a good rebound and i think i like turning it clockwise just passing the middle setting for rebound. 

i still need to buy a shock pump this week to experiment diif kinds of PSI settings..


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

another great thread on this fork. just picked up a tower pro but it sounds like I absolutely need to get this new xx firm "clydesdale" spring in first before I tinker with this stuff. I'm 250lbs byt the time i'm geared up probably closer to 265 but have heard a lot of big guys have gotten this fork to work well.


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## jdgang (Oct 1, 2009)

pedz said:


> hahaha
> 
> btw, when i turn to lock-out (platform) i can still push it down. i believe we can still make this more solid by adding "Blow-Off Shim 19mm x 0.2t" am i right?
> 
> ...


From my own personal xp then yes. I had the production XC stack 3x19 x .2t had when fully locked out it was fully locked out, but my small bump well there was none. I removed (2) shims and the fork was a little more plush but the full lockout is not there. I am looking to getting different shims to tune it more to my taste.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey guys,

I love this thread and I have a problem of my own I would like to share.

I have a 2011 Minute Pro and I weigh appr. 155-160 lbs with gear. The problem is that I can not get it to be compliant on small bumps, but not bottom out when not keeping my weight perfectly centered on jumps (jumps <50 cm/20"). Also, I get the feeling that, despite setting the rebound knob half way, I sometimes get slight top-out. Lowering air pressure increases small bump compliance, but worsens bottoming. Increasing compression damping helps a bit, but again decreases small bump compliance. I first thought that the stock spring might be wrong, but considering my weight it should be about right (and finding replacement parts in the Netherlands is a PITA). 

It seems that making the spring rate more progressive would be the way to go, but I prefer not to open the fork if there is a simpler solution. Can you guys give me some advice? Thanks in advance

p.s. Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but I'm new here and not allowed to start a new thread yet. I thought this might be the most relevant one for my question.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Send Manitou an Email here: Manitou Suspension Forks & Bicycle Components for Mountain Bikes

I believe you can add some oil to the air chamber to reduce volume and create a more progressive spring rate. Usually thick oil(like 80w) is used. That seems to be the best solution. But email Manitou, their tech people are quick to respond and will give you the best solution to your problem.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I'd try adding a speed shim or two (one large diameter to cover HSC ports, one smaller diameter above it) and leaving LSC open wide enough to get small bump sensitivity.

As for the spring side, Minute Pro has Mars Air spring. At your weight, small bumps should be adequately handled with the stock coil spring (but you may have to check if you have the Medium spring indeed). If you want more spring progression, maybe add more oil to the air spring chamber.


PS
Yes, go for the thickest oil for air chamber.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks for the quick response! I have e-mailed Manitou. In the meanwhile, how much oil should I add to the air chamber to be safe and not lose too much travel?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, recommended volume is 6 ml, try 12 ml. )

Please post Manitou's answer here, if they allow it.


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks, will do


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## Chromo (Oct 6, 2005)

*"XC" versus "Trail" Shim Stacks*

I have a question that relates to the feel of a "XC" tuned damper versus the "Trail" tuned unit. Assuming that the coil is suited to the rider's weight and the air pressure is set within the correct limits, what are the differences in ride feel between the two? According to the Manitou tuning guide, the only difference between the two shim stacks is the addition of one 17.5 x 0.20 velocity shim for the Trail tune. The figures show that there is 44lbs less platform in the Trail tune but what are the real world differences when riding?

Just for reference, I'm coming from a Reba Race 29 fork that was used for general cross country and endurance riding. The Reba was a good, reliable unit but I found that I was constantly reaching down to lock it out on climbs and then flicking it open 2 - 3 clicks for a plusher ride on flatter and/or downhill sections. Given the tunability of the Manitou ABS+ damper, is is possible to find one setting that doesn't need to be adjusted over the course of a ride?

I'd also be interested to hear the experiences of anybody who has had a good result with one of the "Linear" shim stacks for cross country use.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Those are good questions. The main answer is no, you will not be able to avoid manually adjusting LSC on Absolute+ for that kind of riding where you need both the platform and the plushness.

The stacks called "Linear" don't have platform shims at all, so it's not possible to lock them out completely by closing LSC (red knob fully clockwise).

The 2 differences between "XC" and "Trail" stacks are just that, Trail has less platform but it has more speed dependency (bigger slope on the damping curve). The platform on XC stacks is huge, as if it was intended to absolutely (pun not intended) prevent compression by standing pedaling efforts, no matter how heavy and strong the rider is.

What I have done to avoid manual adjustment is to do away with plushness. I set the smallest amount of platform that can prevent compression* if* I pull on the bars simultaneously with pedal downstroke. I also set some speed dependency to avoid using too much travel. I always ride it with LSC fully closed. The result is a fork that is not plush by any definition of plush, but the harder I go, the better it works. It opens up to make up for every mistake. And it doesn't bob when I pedal standing. A couple LSC clicks counterclockwise, and I get the plushness -- not that I have any need of it on the DJ/urban/tech XC/do-all bike the fork is used.


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## Chromo (Oct 6, 2005)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Those are good questions. The main answer is no, you will not be able to avoid manually adjusting LSC on Absolute+ for that kind of riding where you need both the platform and the plushness.
> 
> The stacks called "Linear" don't have platform shims at all, so it's not possible to lock them out completely by closing LSC (red knob fully clockwise).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. On reflection, I guess it's asking too much to wish for a "plush platform". I'm presuming you got the feel you want by starting with a Trail stack. Also, do you ever get full travel from your standard setup?

This thread is a great resource.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes, I was using Trail stacks from the document as a guide. I don't remember getting exactly 100 mm of travel, but near-full travel, within a few mm from 100, happens on multiple occasions, such as rougher pilot errors, or deliberate front-wheel-first landings. I think it's the air chambers, both Mars Air and Absolute+ MRD, which limit the travel to slightly under 100 mm.

In any case, the fork feels "bottomless", as they say. There's no sudden ramp-up of resistance to compression, it's all gradual.


Recently I've done about the same tuning to a 80 mm Circus Comp. Must have put too weak a platform, because it bobs very slightly when I pedal. Adding a second platform shim created too strong a platform. I should have played with preload reducing shims more.

The bottomless feel, however, is there, but because of the firm coil spring, I rarely get over 60-65 mm of travel. The highest current gunk mark measured 72 mm from the top of (Enduro) seals. That 72 mm hit I certainly remember as the one where I crashed and bruised my right thumb against the grip, this was severe pilot error on takeoff (and subsequent botched landing).


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

*Reply from Manitou*



J. Random Psycho said:


> Well, recommended volume is 6 ml, try 12 ml. )
> 
> Please post Manitou's answer here, if they allow it.


Hey guys, like I promised I´ll post the answer. Basically they asked me in which country I live (the Netherlands) and directed me to the Dutch distributor. I wrote them the same e-mail in Dutch and they responded within a day that the best thing to do, would be to take it to a local shop and let them send it to the distributor, who would then make the adjustments needed. I have asked them how much this would cost me and will post the answer when I get it.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks! So they are now shifting to handling issues through their dealer network.. (which, to me, invariably sounds like more delays.)


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

Yeah, I agree. Or maybe they put more effort into their US customers than the ones in the EU (wouldn't be the first company to do so), although I have to admit they are quick with their responses. Some companies keep you waiting for an answer for weeks.


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## ilikefire (May 15, 2008)

*Which travel Minute?*



J. Random Psycho said:


> As for the spring side, Minute Pro has Mars Air spring. At your weight, small bumps should be adequately handled with the stock coil spring (but you may have to check if you have the Medium spring indeed).


Out of curiousity what travel Minute Pro do you have Mac? The 140mm travel Minute comes with the firm spring whereas the 120mm, 100mm come with the medium - according to the website that is....


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## Mac1987 (Apr 22, 2012)

I have the 100mm version, so it should be the medium version then. Isn't this the right one for my weight (+- 155 lbs incl. gear)?

p.s. two-one: thanks for the PM. Unfortunately my post count (5) is too low to reply via PM (need 10 posts). This was my reply:

Hey (name),

ik woon in Spijkenisse (15 km onder Rotterdam), maar op zich zou ik best graag een keer langskomen als ik er zelf niet uit kom. Is het goed als ik in dat geval contact met je opneem? Ik vind het namelijk een beetje overdreven als jij nu moeite moet steken in mijn vork voordat ik zelf ermee gestoeid heb  In ieder geval super bedankt voor het bericht!

Gr.,
Marcel


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

So, I have a 130mm Minute MRD with the MILO remote. Anyone pulled the damper to see how to increase low speed compression with these? I have the xfirm spring installed and run 100 psi, but slow technical maneuvers experience a scary amount of brake dive and it rides pretty well down into the travel, more than I'd like.

Do these have a set screw inside that is adjustable to control lsc? Or will messing with the shims help? 

I've only ever used tpc+ and spv, haven't fudged around with Absolute yet. Thanks!


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

^^^ Isn't this post helpful?

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...bs-hsc-shim-stack-687754-12.html#post10188737

You should be prepared to forget small bump compliance, though.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I have never used MILO, But from what I know, there is no separate LSC adjustment. Using the MILO remote will take the LSC from fully open, to fully closed when the lever is pushed. An email to Manitou will either confirm that there is nothing you can do, or give you some options. 

One thing to note though, is that LSC does not prevent brake dive. It controls the speed at which the fork dives, not how much. Its still an important adjustment, but not the total solution of diving problems. If your fork is diving deep into it travel, the spring rate is likely off and the major problem. I know you said you are using the Xfirm spring, but you may want to look into the XXfirm spring that is suppose to be available soon(if not already) Another option would be to put a few CCs of oil on the piston to give a more progressive spring rate, firming up the midstroke support. 

It also sounds like you upgraded to ABS+, what damper did you have before?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Two notes.

1. If you decide to add oil for progression, know that it drains down through piston seal rather quickly on many a Minute Mars Air fork.

2. The only true way to set sag on Mars Air is to change coil spring.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

mullen119 said:


> One thing to note though, is that LSC does not prevent brake dive. It controls the speed at which the fork dives, not how much.


Yes, I read an interview with Ed Kwatersky where he basically said the same thing: http://twentynineinches.com/2012/06/26/the-engineer-speaks-2012-manitou-tower-pro/

Although when I lock down the fork (Max adjuster position), I don't have any significant brake dive, even when the amount (not only the speed) of dive is concerned.

True, you have to sacrifice plushness in that condition. But tuning platform to the minimum necessary (J. Random Psycho's setup), it should still offer good ride quality in steep, rough, technical paths, absorbing medium to big hits.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

J. Random Psycho said:


> If you decide to add oil for progression, know that it drains down through piston seal rather quickly on many a Minute Mars Air fork.


I had this experience too, so I''m planning to use some silicone grease as a volume-reducer/lubricant... good luck flushing that stuff past an o-ring


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I'll try that too next time. Will use LiquiMoly Silicon-Fett that I put in shock air cans.

However, I tried mixing Rock-n-Roll Super Slick with heavy (10W-60) motor oil, and while it holds somewhat longer than motor oil alone, it still gets pushed through uncomfortably quickly. In the process, Super Slick separates from oil and gathers on the lower side of the piston.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't know because I have not looked at any of the parts schematics but I would THINK that you could buy the air piston shaft from a longer travel fork like a tower 120 and cut it to be longer than the one in the existing fork to reduce air volume. Just make sure that the shaft is not too long where it hits the top cap. That is just a thought.

The other thought would be to try a heavier oil in the dampener and a lighter shim stack which should slow down the brake dive I would think.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Hi,

perhaps I already asked this question, can't remember. But I realised I get bewildered when comparing two dyno-charts from Manitou's abs+ tuning guide. Specifically, they are the charts for the stock XC CV-11411-03 stack, and for CV-11411-01.

CV-11411-03 has 2 blow-off shims (19 x 0.20t), and the resulting platform is 116 lbs:









CV-11411-01 has 1 thinner blow-off shim (19 x 0.15t), and platform is 50 lbs:









The clamp shim is the same in both stacks.

I'd expect that removing 1 blow-off shim from production XC stack (19 x 0.20t) would result in a platform of around 60 lbs. So, not much difference between this setup and CV-11411-01 with the thinner 0.15t shim.. confused

This seems to contradict the following statement, always from the tuning guide:



> When stacking up shims of the same OD, increasing quantity has a
> linear increase in stiffness, resulting in a linear change in the damping force. Thickness however, has a cubic relationship to stiffness (t3), therefore, increasing the thickness of an individual shim has a significantly higher effect on damping force.
> [...]
> It would take 8 shims 0.10mm thick to equal 1 shimthat is 0.20mm thick (OD being equal)


On the other hand, stack CV-11411-07 seems in line with that statement, as 3 blow-off shims (19 x 0.2t) result in 169 lbs of platform (i.e. about 3/2 the force of production XC stack):









Now the question is: does this difference from theory depend on the *clamp shim*, which mitigates the effects of blow-off shim thickness?


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Ooooopssss.. Yes, i already asked that, and mullen119 answered!!

Sorry


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

Just ordered some shims and I'm getting ready to dive into HSC tuning on my Tower Pro 29. I figured I'd be sensible this time and read up on it *before* I open it up. I've read through this thread and the articles that are linked from it and gone through the Manitou tuning guide and have a question. It seems that wherever multiple platform or speed shims of the same size are used, they are always the same thickness. Is there a technical reason not to use a stack like say, a 19 x 0.2 and a 19 x 0.15 or is it just that there isn't enough of a functional difference to bother with it?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

You can combine (as in, stack next to each other) shims of equal diameters but different thicknesses to get closer to the desired amount of platform.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

Well, I decided to check out the shim stack on my recently purchased Tower Pro 29, even though the new shims haven't arrived yet. It came with the Production Trail Stack.
Since I wanted to try some changes that didn't require new shims, using the very well done instructions in this thread I pulled one of the 19 x 0.20t blow-off shims, making it an EK-012611-03 trail stack, and went for a ride. The first change was a step in the right direction, but I just pulled the other blow-off shim to make it a CV-11411-10 linear stack. I'll try it tomorrow to see what it does and my shim order will be here Wednesday, so I'll happily be diving into the experimentation full blast then. This thread has been a tremendous help and my thanks to everyone who has contributed.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i have a question or two, but 1st i'd like to say with the MILO it really limits you on performance. it doesn't come close to giving full open to full LO. i'd say from memory that there is prolly a 135* swing with the stock abs+ lever. the milo however only gives 89*, but we'll call it 90. so that being said there is roughly 1/3 of lost tunability. it took me a bit to get it dialled but i think i have mine at full LO to 3-4 clicks from LO. i'm ditching it tonight. i also thought about a RS poplock so you can dial it as needed from the bars.

ok, so bear with me as im a vigin fork tuner and it is taking me a moment to wrap my head around this. i read this whole thread last night along with solitones & trailmakers. heres my info :
185-187 lbs geared up
2011 tower pro with med, firm, & x-firm springs. firm is installed. 90 psi 1/2 rebound
unsure of stack in damper. i've read that it should have trail, but others are saying they have xc. i need to check tonight.
i love the plushness, but the brake dive is killing me. i ride aggressively, so if i dont bail at least once im not pushing it hard enough. mainly xc trails here in mid MI, however once i slap this fork on to my new nimble 9 frame i will be heading to lift assist trails and to the porcupine mtns in the UP. i feel my sag is where it should be on the firm spring in an attack mode. so my question is do i need less platform shims?

edit: i also bottom out once or twice a ride. which is fine as i feel like i have fork pretty well dialled cause i'm using all my travel. most rides are around 12-20 miles with a couple of drops ranging from 2-5 feet.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Are you sure you have the right pressure? Why don't you try and rise it gradually, and note the effect? 

Before you focus on damping, you should be reasonably sure you're not undersprung.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

fishwrinkly, how tall are you? If you have the production stack (either), you shouldn't need to change it if your only complaint is dive. What you need to try is to dial in some lsc, assuming the spring is correct. Where do you currently have the lsc set, clicks out? Dive and plushness is always going to be a balancing act. Also, you've got the x firm spring, so try it. I'd eliminate that variable before you focus too much on damping, as adding lsc to control damping is really just a crutch.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

thanks solitone i will get out there tomorrow possibly to play more with pressures. ktm520 i'm 6'2". i still have the milo on so its hard to say exact clicks but at least mid to a lil above toward LO. well when i get time i will report back with numbers.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Missed the Milo part. That makes it hard to fine tune. When you have it set firm (locked out, whatever you want to call it), is the dive still excessive? You may have a hard time dialing the lsc with the milo installed. 

I'm the same height but only weigh 160. For a tall rider, it's hard to completely eliminate dive, especially when standing, because our body has more leverage on the bike compared to a shorter rider. Running a stiffer spring is the only real cure in my experience, but like I said, then plushness is compromised. Adding lsc is more about stability than actually reducing the amount of dive, ie travel used. It just slows down how quickly it happens.

I'm still getting my fork tuned in, actually getting ready to try a med spring, but with a plush setup, it doesn't dive worst than any RS or Fox fork I have ridden. I'm still amazed by the action of this fork and can't believe I've waited this long to try one. The tuneability is just icing.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

LSC damping only controls the speed at which the fork dives, not how much it dives. Spring rate controls the amount of dive. If your fork is diving excessively, you have a spring rate problem.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Ok I'm going to basement to throw the x firm and abs+ knob on and set it half way to LO along with 1/2 rebound and will start at 90 psi. When LO is at full there's about 1" of dive


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

fishwrinkle said:


> Ok I'm going to basement to throw the x firm and abs+ knob on and set it half way to LO along with 1/2 rebound and will start at 90 psi. When LO is at full there's about 1" of dive


I'm gonna guess that even with an x firm spring at your weight that that a bit more than 90psi may be needed. when you stiffen the spring on these you also need to increase psi significantly


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Good to know. Thx cp


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

How did it go?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

Great thread for us DIY'ers.

I just picked up what appears to be a 2009 Drake Comp 100mm. The only external adjustment is rebound. I believe the damper is FFD.

Can I upgrade to TPC or ABS+? Is it worth upgrading?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes you can, and of course it is mandatory to upgrade from that FFD junk. Last time I saw one it was a plastic cork with 4 round holes in it. That is non(-externally)-adjustable orifice damping. The abomination!


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

cpfitness said:


> How did it go?


a lil late to the party, but i ended up at: X-firm spring, rebound 75% open, abs usually about mid way, 115 psi & tsp grease on top of the chamber to stiffen that dive. its now a dream and i can, not that i try to, plow through most anything and small bumps do not exist. oh and for reference i weigh ~195-200 #'s geared


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## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Yes you can, and of course it is mandatory to upgrade from that FFD junk. Last time I saw one it was a plastic cork with 4 round holes in it. That is non(-externally)-adjustable orifice damping. The abomination!


Okay, I've been studying page 27 of the 2009 Service manual

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2009 Fork Service Manual.pdf

and searching for dampers and other parts online (mostly at CRC). I have yet to find a TPC damper, but I've found an Absolute+ damper without the knob ($50-ish) and another kit with the knob and MILO setup ($77-ish).

It appears I can simply upgrade the damper (#5 on the schematic) alone. Is that the case?

Would it be worth it to upgrade the other leg to air? Can I simply add the air cap (#3) without the "air specific" spring (#2) and compression rod (#1)?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes, the dampers are interchangeable. My advice is to go for Absolute+ (of course) but without MILO.

As for the spring, being a fan of coils (++ reliable) I can't really recommend air.. isn't your spring side ACT Air though? It's a full size coil assisted by low pressure high volume air in the same chamber, it's reliable enough and is air-like adjustable. And you can get heavier coil and run it without air pressure if you want.


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## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

No, mine has no air, just a Comp with FFD. Both top caps are nothing but solid caps. The only adjustment I have is rebound on the bottom of the leg.

I am thinking an air cap can be tried with the existing spring. The air just fills the same area as the spring. If I like it, great. If not, swap back.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Air cap alone may not be enough, it depends on which spring side compression shaft/cap assembly is in your fork. Basically there are 2 types of such assembly for full size coil 32 mm stanchion Manitou forks: one with o-ring in a groove and one grooveless without o-ring (this is the piston part where the spring rests). The former go in ACT Air forks together with an air cap (Schrader valved). The latter go with mechanically preloaded or non-preloaded coil forks.


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

> I am thinking an air cap can be tried with the existing spring. The air just fills the same area as the spring.


Air cap with no air piston ?

There's probably a good reason why there's no air cap on your fork with it's current coil spring setup.

Troubleshooting.
Symptom: Air Loss
Cause: Air Piston leaks
Solution: Check oil volume on top of piston, replace parts as needed.

2009 Drake Comp coil compression rod
2009 Drake Comp air compression rod
* the o-ring that's on the piston on the air compression rod is what seals the air in the stanchion

You might be better off just getting a ABS+ with knob for your fork.


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

rockhound said:


> Would it be worth it to upgrade the other leg to air? Can I simply add the air cap (#3) without the "air specific" spring (#2) and compression rod (#1)?


No you can not, for several reasons. Mostly the inside of the leg isn't machined and polished to function with the air piston. Dont bother thinking about it.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm trying different shims to soften/speed up my ABS+, but currently finding the rebound pretty slow too, so is there any reason not to use lighter oil to speed up both? I have some Redline 2.5wt on hand...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Try it, why not. Ironically I had the reverse problem with Marvel Expert recently, it had a large rebound orifice and too fast rebound. 10W oil helped.


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## NorCalTaz (Nov 12, 2013)

Anyone know of or have a copy of "ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf", the link http://solitone.interfree.it/ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf is broken.

Thanks


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Hi, you find an updated link at the end of Mullen's first post:
http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...ur-abs-hsc-shim-stack-687754.html#post7783419


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I cant believe this thread is nearing 40,000 views!


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

Man, I have these spares I don't know what to do with anymore... A complete Nixon 160 MRD cartridge with TPC+ and rebound dampers as well as a spare MRD tpc+ damper... Any ideas?



















I also have a spare standard TPC+ damper for a Sherman 150, Nixon 145, and possibly Minute (not confirmed)...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Ebay? I'm certain there are a lot of fans of TPC+ dampers out there.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I wonder if the cartridge could be used to fraken fork a TPC+ damper into another fork. Hmmmmm


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

But why, for a better chassis?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I would love to modify my lyrik to fit a tpc+ cartridge. That would be amazing.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Ah, kind of getting a Mattoc without buying one? )
(though its damper works different than TPC+)


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

I like the new MC2 damper in the Mattoc and Hope to get one at some point, but I will always be partial to tpc+. Just a great damper design for long travel forks.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

I've got a 120 Tower Pro on a SB95. I'm mainly been posting my tuning on the "Tuning a Tower Pro" thread. I have tried a few different stacks, mostly trail and linear, but have been playing with a 2 stage here lately. I didn't really care fore the trail stacks as I have no need for any platform whatsoever.

current 2 stage:
17x.15
13x.1
17x.2
17x.2

Both stages are too soft and it developed an audible click when transitioning from comp to reb. Ultra plush, but it blows through the stroke pretty badly on any type of high speed hit. I believe it is the face shim causing the noise as it get worst as the lsc approaches fully closed. First I'm going to go back to a straight stack and see if the noise goes away. Then, I will play with the 2 stage some more, adding stiffness to both stages.

I also recently tore apart the rebound piston. The rebound stack is a single 21x10x0.3 shim. I plan on lightening the reb stack at some point. There also appears to be plenty of room to install a midvalve, which I'd like to play with at some point, but that's far off. Too busy playing with shocks right now.


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## investorofmercy (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a manitou absolute plus tuning kit fs on ebay if anyne is interested.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

mattsavage said:


> No, the 130 is fixed travel. The 100 is adjustable down to 80 internally. Almost all the Manitou "Expert" and "comp" models do that.


Looking at the Manitou '12 Service Manual there are 5 parts that are associated with the 130mm travel option. If these five parts replaced the like parts of the 100/80mm travel option, would this effectively make a 130mm travel fork?

Also seeking some advise; I just ordered the Circus Expert 80/100mm. My primary use I intend for the fork is Urban Assault, with some XC and light AM thrown in. I weigh low 170's without gear and don't fluctuate personal weight much at all.

Everything here is a climb. All of the good parks in town are large hills that you have to ascend in order to use. The places I go don't have much for rock/root gardens, just occasional obstacles, but there are lots of drops and jumps. When I do get out for some trail riding, I'm not looking to kill the bike the fork is going on, so the trails this bike will see will not be all that fun for a FS with 120mm+ of rear suspension. However, the trails it will visit wont be smoothed out. I'm going to be jumping up onto obstacles too, so I wouldn't want the fork to extend to quickly messing with my balance.

Were would be a good place for me to start, I was thinking the Trail series, or that maybe Linear would be more the thing for Urban assault; what do you guys have to say?

Edit: Spelling


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

pdxmark,

one of these parts should be the longer stanchioned CSU, which costs comparably to a whole fork.. otherwise yes, you can build your own fork from Manitou parts.

As for the damper tune, I'd look for a very light platform and a minimal speed stack initially. For urban, run it with platform and see if you need more speed shims. For offroad you can open LSC a bit (though I don't do that on mine because I mostly stand, thus it's quick to bunnyhop/unweight over most stuff, but I always need the platform).


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Called Manitou about the 130mm upper stanchions, Manitou only makes the Circus 130mm in Tapered.

So...

Edit: Deleted: forget all that. Was emailed a coupon for 25% off items over $200 at PP. So what did I do... Picked up the 2013 Minute Pro for $210; and, it has no frame to go on right now!

Just got my Circus Expert in the mail today, and ordered another fork :yesnod:

Edit2: Where can I get a medium spring for the Manitou CE?
...

Kind of OT: I'm getting a Samurai with a 44mm x 114mm headtube, I would like to use the 'Cane Creek AngleSet Headset' so I can play around with the angle of the fork.--Deleted irrelevant sentence--.


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

I'd like to order some shim to ABS+ for MX-tech, but they need ID (internal diameter) of shims, is the anybody know this diameter.
Fork: Manitou Tower Pro 2011 29" ABS+


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

8mm. I order my shims from RSP. They have a larger selection of shim thickness, id, and od.


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

ktm520 said:


> 8mm. I order my shims from RSP. They have a larger selection of shim thickness, id, and od.


thanks, can you give me any link to RSP?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Revalving Shims


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Tomick said:


> I'd like to order some shim to ABS+ for MX-tech, but they need ID (internal diameter) of shims, is the anybody know this diameter.
> Fork: Manitou Tower Pro 2011 29" ABS+


8mm


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

what about torque for the nut on the bottom of the piston?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf '12 manitou manual, but should still be fine


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

fishwrinkle said:


> http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf '12 manitou manual, but should still be fine


I have this manual, i think about nut on damper.
See below


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

That nut should be torqued to 2.3 - 2.8 N*m (20-25 in*lb) (source: email from Manitou Support)


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

Ok, thanks.
I checked offer MX-Tech and RSP- i can't find shim OD 17,5mm. If i use shim OD17mm or 18mm what is change in curves? i think about:
CV-11311-01 Production “Trail Stack”
11 x 0.5t x (1)
19 x 0.2t x (2)
17.5 x 0.2 x (1)
or 
CV-11411-12 Linear
13 x 1.1t x (1)
13 x 0.1t x (1)
17.5 x 0.20t x (3)


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

The change would be insignificant.


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

solitone said:


> The change would be insignificant.


ok, thanks.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Tomick said:


> Ok, thanks.
> I checked offer MX-Tech and RSP- i can't find shim OD 17,5mm. If i use shim OD17mm or 18mm what is change in curves? i think about:
> CV-11311-01 Production "Trail Stack"
> 11 x 0.5t x (1)
> ...


I use 17mm od for the "speed" shims and would recommend that over a 18. The piston has a shoulder on it that is used to preload the 19mm shims. The speed shims sit down inside this pocket and if it is too large is will start to restrict flow between the edge of the shim and the piston shoulder. I'm not even sure an 18 will fit down in the pocket without resting on the radius of the shoulder corner. RSP will make you 17's, just add them to your cart.


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## Tomick (Sep 30, 2011)

ok, it a little problem with order, i'm from Poland- but i think i can do it


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## severthee (Mar 17, 2013)

Good day

i've just stumbled upon this thread looking for info to maximize my fork. Wow what a wealth of information this thread has! Quite overwhelming for someone like me, im no suspension engineer, but im learning!

I have a 100mm minute 29er from 2011. I think this became tower pro. It has abs+ damping on it. I weigh about 180lbs. This fork came with a medium spring back in the day. While it was awesome for plushness and all, i felt it didnt give enough rate to push the airpiston back. I was using 85-90psi.

I ordered the firm coil to stiffen things up , found that the air piston breaks away easily now which i prefer, but i was not using most of the travel even when i decrease psi to 75. 
I measured my overall travel , its around 87-90mm with a little play. Not sure if its the small spring sandwiched by the blue rod and air piston OR the firm coil. Also not sure if the conical bushing on the compression rod OR the 5cc of oil is decreasing max travel by almost 10mm. 

Basically with this 90mm travel i have, i am not getting even 75% of that, at my weight with firm spring plus 75psi. Running the abs+ fully open and rebound at 1/8from fast.

I am now looking at changing shimstacks. Im gonna assume i have an xc stack because when its full locked. . . It is Locked. It doesnt budge and i dont even try to break that lock. At max-1 i have little movement. Max-2 and max-3 opens it up a bit but still dampens. Max-4 to fully open feels all the same.

I would like to retain the lockout feature, i assume that means retaining one of the big shims? But i would like to maximize of whats left with my travel as well. Is this possible? To make the fork lock a bit, at MAX but for the fork oil to gush in with ease at the early to mid part of the travel WHEN FULLY OPEN then ramp up before bottoming out? Or is this too much to ask for this fork?


thanks!


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

The small spring is a negative spring, doesn't affect travel. I don't believe the bottom out bumper is taken into acct when measuring full travel, so that shouldn't affect it. 

How are you measuring full travel? Letting all the air out and compressing?

90mm of travel on a 100mm fork sounds typical. Rarely do you use full travel except on the hardest high velocity hits. I say go back to the medium spring and add some low speed compression to keep it from wallowing and riding higher in the travel.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

mattsavage said:


> I say go back to the medium spring and add some low speed compression to keep it from wallowing and riding higher in the travel.


This. You've got a spring setup issue, not damping.


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## mahavishnu (Mar 7, 2013)

...


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## severthee (Mar 17, 2013)

i measure the upper lip of the dust wiper to the bottom of the o-ring/oil line it smears on the stanchion

yes matt, i let the air out and compress. but i dont think i've emptied the oil in the air piston everytime i measure.

alrightie, I will go back to medium and bump the psi. 

also i realized ive recently converted to tubeless same time i changed the spring. i was normall running 32-35 psi with the medium set up. and now im in 25-28. does that affect the fork at all?

thanks guys!


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## mattsavage (Sep 3, 2003)

severthee said:


> also i realized ive recently converted to tubeless same time i changed the spring. i was normall running 32-35 psi with the medium set up. and now im in 25-28. does that affect the fork at all?
> 
> thanks guys!


No, shouldn't... Will affect overall handling, but not fork performance.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Decided to revive this thread. Mainly because Clydes can use the info from my tweaking. Not to mention, but HONORABLE mention to the OP (mullen) for being a huge help with getting the initial stages of dialing this fork in. Never had a decent fork, much less something with more than a simple rebound and lockout knob,lol.

Im 270lbs just got a Marvel Expert 29" couple weeks ago. Now that air spring is set, travel options have been tried (you can go 18-90-100-110-120 by simple changing spacers on the compression rod) and oddly enough set back at 100mm (stock for frame anyway).

TIME TO PLAY WITH DAMPERS!!! First thing I noticed, rebound adjustment I had to max out since Im running a bit higher air pressure in the spring, otherwise it would have kind of a "thud" feeling when front tire left the ground.

Temp fix (I can open it 1-2 clicks now before I start getting thud): remove rebound rod, take off nut and remove thick washer and thin one below it, reverse their install. Thick first then thin, then nut. That helped a good bit. going to 7wt (Maxima "Racing Zero Friction" stuff) oil helped a tad more. Dont want to go higher as I dont want to throw the compression damping all over the place.

Ordering shims tomorrow probably. Wish MX had more options, RSP charges $12 for shipping in the US!!! $12.00 for a padded envelope that costs $2 to ship lol. So shipping rather high at RSP plus 0.20 more expensive for shims. STILL cheaper than $180 for the Manitou kit,lol. Gonna check with LBS since the tuning manual has spec numbers for shim set ups, maybe its cheaper that way.

Once I have shims in hand Ill update first about rebound damper changes to balance out air spring pressures for us big guys, then Ill start playing with the ABS+ itself lol.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Ordering shims tomorrow probably. Wish MX had more options, RSP charges $12 for shipping in the US!!! $12.00 for a padded envelope that costs $2 to ship lol. So shipping rather high at RSP plus 0.20 more expensive for shims.


MX Tech's shipping is high also. RSP has a better selection and really the only advantages to MXT is if you buy bags of 10 shims. Not much we can do about though. It's well worth the investment. You can really transform how the damper works with a 5 min revalve. The trick is first knowing what you want to change and then formulating a stack to get there. Lots of smart folks here that can help you with that and flatten the learning curve, and save you some money on shims.

The Marvel comes with a XC stack, which is great if you like pedalling platform and a super rigid lockout, but at the sacrifice of small bump and square edge compliance. What is your experience level and what type of trails do you ride?

It's been awhile since I've had the rebound piston apart, but I don't at all follow what you did with the shims. I remember there being a single heavy (0.3mm thick) shim in the rebound stack that should be right up against the piston face. The smaller shim would be what you call a clamp shim. Your stack may have been installed incorrectly from the factory. At your weight, you will definitely want to revalve the rebound stack. However, the harsh top out is more so do to the negative spring being to soft. This is a common problem with this type of air spring design for heavy riders. Keep in mind you are way outside the as designed target rider weight. Be careful using rebound damping to tune this out as you may end up with too much low speed rebound damping.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thnx for the advise. My rebound is thick shim on check valve side (full open under compression stroke) then thin 19mm shim ,then a thin 12 or 13mm shim, a thin clamp shim, then clamp washer. I have been running it almost all the way or all the way and kills most (or all now) of the hard rebound. Wish I could figure out how to find a better neg spring for that but oh well.

As for Trails, upper midwest singletrack, few rocks, tons of roots, well groomed and maintained.

I dont ever use the lockout though except stand and mash on pavement. Never used lockout on trails. I did notice how strong it is though. ROckshox TK system I can shove hard on the forks and get it to budge, this feels like hitting a rigid fork when locked out,lol.

I have everything set so I run lever in middle, trail chatter is pretty decent with right tire pressure now, cant complain. Short, steel, rooted climbs are much nicer now feel more in control. Just that initial hit at speed that the platform catches...want to take it down just a tad. Im working on reading through this thread o get an idea of what changes what combined with tthat manitou manual that is linked here (printed that off). 

All I know atm is the rebound needs a little more dialing, think I know how to fix that to desired setup now, just ABS need to sort out best way to maintain a little platform (guessing I can do this partially with lever) for the long climbs but rest more "trail" I guess would the term so faster hits are a bit softer.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK so it hit me a little while ago:

With ISO air (ya a tad off topic but this could play a part in damper tuning) the negative spring has basically a piece of rubber automotive hose thats on the compression shaft.

http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2014-Aftermarket-Fork-Travel-Adjust-Guide.pdf

Scroll down to ISO air section and ull see. Spacers for travel setting sit above it then it and neg spring. Ill have to do some measuring on the spring to make sure, but (using a spare made from automotive hose, fuel or transmission not sure which till I tear into fork) can go a bit shorter, increasing preload on neg spring. May screw with travel a bit but if I go a full 10mm shorter I can add another travel spacer to compensate. Can probably find smaller spacers if I need to. I considered spacers that would fit over the rubber but that causes concern on integrity of the spacers and possible fork damage if it was to fail since it will be rather thin walled.

I had no idea the neg spring would effect damping ("Duh Im slow today" moment when I read it and it hit me). Messing with that will effect both so going to play with that a little first. Leaving stock one untouched in case experiment doesnt work, if it does then Ill modify stock one accordingly. Thankfully I dont need trails to test this matter, my yard and street with be plenty.

Man I need a bike stand so I dont have to take the forks off everytime I mess with internals.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Talking to manitou, the neg spring isn't meant to be messed with which is why there isn't a different spring rates. Warranty void if I do, so not happening.

With that went to tune rebound side, damn if i didn't bother asking or measuring...10mm shims. Then in frustration put back together and forgot to tighten nut. Dont do that u have a hellva time carefully getting piston and stuff back out when u realize it and it un screws as u remove the cap. Just going to leave it as it was till seal cage time.


Onto tuning abs+ went smooth. Have plenty of shims now. Thnx for the info here big help in hopefully nailing this right the first time.
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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Figured id throw an update in.

Tried a higher platform version of trail stack (3rd platform shim). Ride was a bit rough (initial hits) but could practically ride locked out lol. Open a couple clicks rode pretty nice. Liked it except 0 lockout basically. 

Tomorrows test, kinda split the stack using a .15 preload reducer above the speed shim. Have a fair bit of platform at lockout (can stand and mash without compressing the forks alot) but rides really nice 2-3 open.

Unsure how much ill actually care about the lockout platform but option is there now. 

See how this split stack thing does on trails that have more techy stuff tomorrow.
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## DYI01 (Jun 28, 2012)

This isn't quite related to the tuning of the ABS+ damper but a simple mod you can do to increase the resolution of the damper adjustment knob. So instead of the normal 8 clicks, you get 16. What you do is take the red compression damper knob off of fork and arrange the ball/spring detents to sit at 90deg from each other instead of the normal 180deg. In essence it gives you half click increments vs what you had stock. It will allow you to fine tune your damper even further than you could before.


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## mahavishnu (Mar 7, 2013)

Interesting. I initially thought the detents are evenly spaced. If they are odd in numbers, your simple mod will make sense. I removed the detent balls before, while it provide fine tuning, it was also easy to accidentally turn the abs+


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

There is not many users of Manitou on this forum so I really didn't want to make a new thread and my question I think is simple, just need some other users experience or knowledge...









If the large spacer is not put on the top of the piston(red arrow), will this soften up the firm spring on the manitou circus and still be 100mm travel, or will it be bad for the fork to not put on the large rubber pumper?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

pdxmark said:


> There is not many users of Manitou on this forum so I really didn't want to make a new thread and my question I think is simple, just need some other users experience or knowledge...
> 
> View attachment 936938
> 
> ...


You should start a new thread. But in that position it is 100mm travel. Spacer below the top is 80mm travel.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Just got my first Manitou fork since late 2012 when I sold my Drake that started this thread. Did a revalve and when reinstalling the damper, messed with different placement of the spring/bearing set up. If you instal the two balls with two open spaces between them, it you you a solid 17 clicks of low speed that are evenly spaced. probably overkill but it can hurt. Good find!


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Nice! There have been times were I wanted half a click.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ktm520 said:


> Nice! There have been times were I wanted half a click.


Surprised it took so long for someone to figure that out.

Started my tuning with your suggestion of a single 17 x .2


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## Gabe3 (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a 2014 marvel pro 29 on the way. I didn't know in order to tune, it costs $200 for the kit. I thought the shims would be like $20 or something, lol. hope I like it stock.

can I buy shims individually? I weigh 138 lbs and looking for plushness and small bump sensitivity. I'm coming from a dual air reba rl and looking for more of the above than it gave me.


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Gabe3 said:


> I thought the shims would be like $20 or something, lol. hope I like it stock.
> 
> can I buy shims individually? I weigh 138 lbs and looking for plushness and small bump sensitivity. I'm coming from a dual air reba rl and looking for more of the above than it gave me.


Shims are cheap. It literally costs more to ship them than it does to buy them.

MX-Tech Suspensions

I'm sure I've seen links to other suppliers somewhere, but I can't find them at this moment. 
I got my shims from a local motorcycle shop, they practically gave them away.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Actually imo mx-tech sucks. Selections are horrible. Just so few sizes for what we need, m8 for abs. There is a link to tuning guide in this thread, it'll give u a lost of sizes to cover all options u could need/want. Revalving kit is am lbs thing lol.

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/shim/shim.html

I ordered a a bunch through them fast shipping great ppl to deal with. And huge selection. Allowed me to tune damper and rebound cause I could get both sizes in any thickness I could need.

Ps: thnx guys for the trick of moving the balls around. I had 8 to start and some how after playing with shim stack I now have 9 lol. Now I have even more options to tune the abs, just what I need 

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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

DYI01 said:


> This isn't quite related to the tuning of the ABS+ damper but a simple mod you can do to increase the resolution of the damper adjustment knob. So instead of the normal 8 clicks, you get 16. What you do is take the red compression damper knob off of fork and arrange the ball/spring detents to sit at 90deg from each other instead of the normal 180deg. In essence it gives you half click increments vs what you had stock. It will allow you to fine tune your damper even further than you could before.


Added 10 clicks for a total of 19 on my Circus Expert :ihih:

Edit: 178lb without gear, started with Production Jump Stack. Now experimenting with; x1 Clamp Shim 11mm x 0.5t, x3 Blow-Off Shim 19mm x 0.2t, x1 Velocity Dependant Shim 17.5mm x 0.20t. It's close to what I'm looking for, a bit of a mixed Trail/Jump fork. Might trade out one of the 19x.20t for a 19x.10t.

Edit2: As far as my last post, seems that if you take the bumper out and don't put it on the bottom of the piston flange, there will be negative space between the air piston and the spring, by about 1.8cm. This is bad!


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## Gabe3 (Mar 13, 2009)

can anyone in the 130-140 lbs range post what shim stack they are using on a marvel 100mm? or what you recommend using? I weigh 137 lbs.

I've gone all the way down to 35 psi. I'd still like some plushness on the medium bumps. on the iso air chart it says 65 psi for 120 lbs. which seems insane. its too harsh for me even at 50. small bumps seem to feel ok though.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Gabe3 said:


> can anyone in the 130-140 lbs range post what shim stack they are using on a marvel 100mm? or what you recommend using? I weigh 137 lbs.
> 
> I've gone all the way down to 35 psi. I'd still like some plushness on the medium bumps. on the iso air chart it says 65 psi for 120 lbs. which seems insane. its too harsh for me even at 50. small bumps seem to feel ok though.


I've done some math, but none of this seems to be correct. At your weight, you should have about 25kg of weight on the front fork in "attack position", where you should be aiming for 20% sag to be in the optimal spring rate for an air-fork. And to support that weight, your fork should be aired to about 60psi. 
Your 35psi should be giving you 50% sag. So I think something is wrong with your negative spring, shock pump, or you are measuring sag in an incorrect way.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Gabe3 are there platform shims in your stack? If so try taking one out and go for a ride and see how it feels


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Gabe3 said:


> can anyone in the 130-140 lbs range post what shim stack they are using on a marvel 100mm? or what you recommend using? I weigh 137 lbs.
> 
> I've gone all the way down to 35 psi. I'd still like some plushness on the medium bumps. on the iso air chart it says 65 psi for 120 lbs. which seems insane. its too harsh for me even at 50. small bumps seem to feel ok though.


Do you have a Pro? If so, the coil ride kit affects small bumps more than air pressure, which ride kit is in the fork?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

fsrxc, Marvel has ISO air spring that does not have coil at all.

Gabe, how much sag does this 35 psi give you? 

If you remove the platform shims, it will make the fork much plusher. I'm 210lbs and I removed both platform shims (19mm) from trail stack, leaving only one speed sensitive shim (17.5mm). I like it. 

Marvel might have the XC stack that does not have speed sensitive shim in the stack. You must find the replacement shim.


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

Gabe3 said:


> can anyone in the 130-140 lbs range post what shim stack they are using on a marvel 100mm? or what you recommend using? I weigh 137 lbs.
> 
> I've gone all the way down to 35 psi. I'd still like some plushness on the medium bumps. on the iso air chart it says 65 psi for 120 lbs. which seems insane. its too harsh for me even at 50. small bumps seem to feel ok though.


Broken the fork in yet?

From a Manitou Owners Manual.


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## Gabe3 (Mar 13, 2009)

two-one said:


> I've done some math, but none of this seems to be correct. At your weight, you should have about 25kg of weight on the front fork in "attack position", where you should be aiming for 20% sag to be in the optimal spring rate for an air-fork. And to support that weight, your fork should be aired to about 60psi.
> Your 35psi should be giving you 50% sag. So I think something is wrong with your negative spring, shock pump, or you are measuring sag in an incorrect way.


my pump has 3 marks between 0-50 psi, so its a little tricky but the 3rd mark should be 37.5 psi and I'm airing to a hair under that mark.

I measured sag with my rear wheel wedged between the washer and dryer so it was pretty stable tests. after getting off the bike, my fork doesn't rebound completely, more so the lower the psi. so I took these measurements after pulling the fork out by hand. at 60 psi, I could pull the fork out 2mm. at 35 psi, 5mm.

35 psi: 26mm
50 psi: 18mm
60 psi: 14mm



rupps5 said:


> Gabe3 are there platform shims in your stack? If so try taking one out and go for a ride and see how it feels


I don't know if theres any platform shims. its a 2014 marvel pro. are the platform shims the 19mm x 0.2t ?



arnea said:


> fsrxc, Marvel has ISO air spring that does not have coil at all.
> 
> Gabe, how much sag does this 35 psi give you?
> 
> ...


it gives me 26mm sag but since the fork sags on its own about 5mm so really 21mm.



cobba said:


> Broken the fork in yet?
> 
> From a Manitou Owners Manual.
> View attachment 942542


I forgot about the break-in. I guess I won't mess with the shims till I get past 20 hours. I'm at about 5-10 hours.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok here's this for u (I have same fork)

Fork negative spring is much of the reason for it not rebounding fully and guessing ur rebound is also set too tight.

Ur fork as 2 19x0.2 platform shims. This is much of ur harshness. Ur weight is only a small part of damper setting. Stock shims too harsh for me and I'm 270lbs. Until u order shims take 1 platform shim out, once that's all done properly and ur ready to ride, move ur abs lever to locked, then open 4 clicks, 5 if that's still a little harsh. 

Sag counts even the bit of extra that u can "pull up". If u want softer ride set at 30%, stiffer around 20%. So 30mm to 20mm compressed.

Now ride the crap outta it, u need to break it in.
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## jimlmackjr (Dec 14, 2014)

*09 Manitou Drake Super Air 80mm questions*

Just bought a 2008 Specialized Stump jumper it came with Maniou Drake Super Air 80mm Forks. after reading the thread I took my forks apart and I think someone upgraded these to the ABS+

When I ride these fork I have a clicking noise when the forks are compressing 
also can these be shimmed????


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jimlmackjr said:


> Just bought a 2008 Specialized Stump jumper it came with Maniou Drake Super Air 80mm Forks. after reading the thread I took my forks apart and I think someone upgraded these to the ABS+
> 
> When I ride these fork I have a clicking noise when the forks are compressing
> also can these be shimmed????


That's not an n Abs+ damper. I'm not sure what that one is I'm guessing its a old absolute damper. Maybe someone else can chime in with better info on what damper it is. Pictures show no shims to to change.


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## Aresab (Mar 27, 2007)

You are correct, that is the 2008-2009 ABS damper (non-shimmed / not plus version), I have a bunch of them from upgrades of Minutes and R7's laying around. The clicking noise was common in 08, Manitou send out a fix kit for free, not sure if they will still do it though. If funds allow, I'd recommend the ABS+ damper, leaps and bounds better. They are fairly cheap, I bought one this past fall for under $60 at PricePoint. You do need to readjust oil level when installing.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Yep that's the old absolute. The ABS+ is a drop-in upgrade that will massively improve your fork.


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## Gabe3 (Mar 13, 2009)

I was adjusting the rebound knob on my marvel pro the other day and noticed when its turned all the way to slowest rebound. the fork gets really soggy. when I compress it, it hardly rebounds, just stays stuck. turning the knob one click or even half a click makes it rebound. and it seems to work. kinda weird.

this isn't related to the above, but does anyone lube their stanchions or around the seal?


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## jimlmackjr (Dec 14, 2014)

Thanks everyone . I founds the ABS+ on Amazon for like 39$ and if I wanted the lock out kit it was like 55$. So do I want the lock out or not


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

jimlmackjr said:


> Thanks everyone . I founds the ABS+ on Amazon for like 39$ and if I wanted the lock out kit it was like 55$. So do I want the lock out or not


Personally, I like having all the clicks in the middle and have no reason. To have a remote lock out. But if you need to use the lock out often then i may be worth it for you.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

if you are talking about the MILO i say it's def not worth the $55. it's a PITA to set up and get dialed to where you would like it. you lose a lot of adjustment when using the MILO. if you really want it PM me as i have one sitting here that has minimal hours


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I modified my Milo cause it didn't open far enough, took dremel to the red cap and cut the groove deeper. Measured and marked where the normal knob was for each click then ground away the groove till the Milo knob would go from full lock to where I usually have it set open.

All that said, I'm doing this soon and been done plenty with perfect results. Buy a rockshox poploc lever and use it instead. You can't go full open to full lock out but full open is scary anyway, horrible brake dive.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Marvel 100mm fork on a Kona Unit SS.
90kg rider, riding everywhere.

It'll be used for playing in the hills, XC racing, back country epics.

As it's a single speed, I'll be using the locked out platform most of the time and the stock XC stack is a little too rock solid.
Maybe a platform breakaway around 400Nm instead of the stock 500?
Tried with one 19x0.2 removed, but not enough platform.
Replace one of the 19x0.2's with a 19x0.15?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's something you'll have to play with. Your wanting to do something most of us dont, which is 0 small bump compliance, harsh ride. Remember you can't have a strong platform in full lock and not practically be riding rigid fork.

Rider weight means little for abs+ damper. Spring controls rider, damper controls spring. Get a few different shims and try a few variations to see what you like.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> That's something you'll have to play with. Your wanting to do something most of us dont, which is 0 small bump compliance, harsh ride.


I'd just like it to be closer to how the Motion Control on my Stumpy 26" hard tail handles.
Not as strong a platform as the ABS+ XC stack when climbing locked out and flick it open a click or 2 for bumpy/descent.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

NordieBoy said:


> I'd just like it to be closer to how the Motion Control on my Stumpy 26" hard tail handles.
> Not as strong a platform as the ABS+ XC stack when climbing locked out and flick it open a click or 2 for bumpy/descent.


You can also place one or more 12mm shims under the stack. These shims don't have to flex, but just reduce the 0.6mm preload that is normally placed on the XC stack. 
If you use a shim of about 17mm diameter it will also add to the overal speed sensitivity, which might be a good thing, or a bad one if you prefer a digressive (blowoff) feel.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

NordieBoy said:


> I'd just like it to be closer to how the Motion Control on my Stumpy 26" hard tail handles.
> 
> Not as strong a platform as the ABS+ XC stack when climbing locked out and flick it open a click or 2 for bumpy/descent.


Find the manitou tuning chart, order up some shims and start trying some variations. Trying to duplicate motion control damper the way you like it is something you'll have to play with. Luckily shims are cheap, a bottle of damper oil is also pretty cheap, and takes only 5mins (once you've done it) to make a change to your shim stack and be riding again.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

2.5w oil?

The rebound is slightly... frisky.
You can get the wheel to "hop" on any setting other than locked out.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

After a few rides and a good long (40km) race, I think the stock XC shims are about right for single speeding so I've ordered the MILO adjuster.
It's going to be mated up to an X0 9spd or Zee 10spd shifter depending on which is more compatible for adjustment duties.
On my RS SID Race forks the X0 gives 5 clicks from locked out to fully open.
The poplock was fine when it had gears and I was seated climbing but not SS...


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## jimlmackjr (Dec 14, 2014)

1ax


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## jimlmackjr (Dec 14, 2014)

ok I called and talked to Manitou and for my fork it only came with a medium spring

09 Manitou Drake Super Air

I bought the ABS+ damper but it makes the ride way too soft.
my question is can I use some shims and a combination of fork oil to make the fork a little stiffer

I am going to do a fork o ring kit and add a thicker OIL like maybe a 7.5w or 10w oil
can someone tell me the amount of oil I need to add in the right scantion and how much I need to add the rebound area 
thanks in advance


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

first get the correct spring for your weight and style of riding. http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2009 Fork Service Manual.pdf pg 23. http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf pg 23 here will show you how to set and measure height for oil.


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## jimlmackjr (Dec 14, 2014)

ya I bought this bike used and I got in contact with Manitou and they said that model only came with the MED spring and they never made a firm spring for it 
im a 240lb novice XC/AM rider and when I installed the ABS+ the spring was too soft 
and Manitou recommended a firm but when I sent them the model number they told me they don't make it for the DRAKE SUPER AIR model

so that why I was asking about added more shims and thicker oil to see if that would help adding to the compression 
but I am looking at doing a FORK exchange to the Manitou Circus expert in about 6 month


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The abs+ has nothing to do with the spring firmness, if you upgraded to abs+ and ride became to soft vs before, you need to change the high speed shims and turn the knob closer to "locked"


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## buddiesconfusion (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi, I'm new to this thread; I just finished installing a 2013 minute pro on my trek fuel EX9. I'm stoked to have such a user friendly fork but now after reading through some of this thread I'm a little overwhelmed. My plan was to ride it for a while and see what I think. I weigh approx. 190-195, 6'2" and a fairly decent rider that likes to push hard. We have some long grinds on our rides to I'm glad to have a fork with some lockout. When I'm ready to start delving into reshim the fork where do I begin? Thanks for the help


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi, I'm new too, although I've been reading quite alot in this topic and related documents, just created an account to ask questions and participate. You've created quite a resource here, well done.

Last week I got my hands on an as good as new 2012 Minute Pro 140, installed it immediately ofcourse, set the sag and went for a quick ride (bounce) in the street.
Sadly it suffers from massive brake dive. I was under the impression that the 2012 140mm came stock with a firm ride kit, I am about 187 lbs (84kg), 200 lbs with full kit. Looking at the air pressure chart that should equate to less than 50 psi. But that results in mahoosive brake dive. Should it have a standard ride kit, 100 psi would probably suffice, but even then and at maximum pressure it still dives to much for my liking.

I was very interested in this fork and the ABS+ damper and ofcourse to posibilities of tuning it (becoming somewhat of a suspension enthousiast), but as I read on multiple occasions spring rate trumps damping, so thats something that should be taken care of beforehand. I

But to get to the real question, I was wondering what ride kit it was fitted out with and if I should get a firmer option (I read that the springs are generally not that firm and that heavier riders prefer a extra, or even xx firm ride kit).

Checked the service manual, remove casting, quite simple and straight forward, but hit a snag almost immediately. The bolt which threads into the compression rod (spring side) a 12mm hex bolt in my case, doesn't want to come out, it spins and spins (with quite some drag) so it appears the rod or internals are slipping. How can this be solved, I would really like to get going with this fork and experiment with the features (and ditch the Fox 32 Talas its replacing). Otherwise I am going to have to dish out quite a bit more on a Mattoc. 

In this video at about 1:14: 



 its suggests pressing down on the arch to remedy this problem, mentions the spinning. Tried it, but that doesnt work sadly. Ant thoughts? Thanks.

Send an email to Manitou support aswell.

Any idea where you can get firm or extra firm ride kits still?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

not sure what coil the 12 minute 140 comes with but I am 200lbs geared up and run xfirm coil with 90 psi with the trail shim pack that came stock in the tower pro.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

I used a ratchet strap from crown to arch and an impact. Your LBS should be able to get the coil kit, if not call shockspital. They're real helpful.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Dougal said:


> The biggest shim is needed to cover the ports. If you feel you have too much compression damping, take out the smaller shims first.


Thank you. I've been looking for this info for a while.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

fishwrinkle said:


> I used a ratchet strap from crown to arch and an impact. Your LBS should be able to get the coil kit, if not call shockspital. They're real helpful.


I emailed Manitou (Hayes) and just got a reply from the distributor over here. They said to try a LBS for the ride kits (I dont think there are any shops here that deal in Manitou, but they can always contact the distributor I guess), they can be ordered via them.

Regarding the technical question they advised to send it to them for examination (via a shop) to see what's not coming undone. But seeing as I got it for a real good deal second-hand, the question is, if thats viable option, cost wise.

Just tried compressing it with a strap, the bolt has come out 1-2mm and is now pretty loose, but still wont extract.  Could it have something to do with the mysterious 'air shelf' that is mentioned in the service manual?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

Naw the air shelf has nothing to do with that. I'm assuming you ratchet the strap again after that 2mm gain? Did you use an impact gun or a drill? Something that can spin it faster that your hand is needed.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Aha, thats good news, read in the manual that it requires sending it away for service if it has moved.
Yep, tried to tighten it further, but it didn't seem to compress further strangely enough.
No, only hand tools here. I'll see if I can borrow a power drill, maybe thats solution. Thanks.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Stratus,

Keeping raising the air until you get the level of support you seek. There really isn't a max air pressure, but what will happen is it will develop a harsh spike in the spring curve if the air springs gets outside of the compatible range of the coil spring. I'm 165lb, and currently running a med spring with 110psi in my TP.

Check out the Tower Pro thread. Lots of good info there on setting up the mars spring. It can be quite confusing. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need a firmer spring to get more support. The air spring portion is really what shapes the mid/btm support, and imo the charts on the fork legs aren't even in the ballpark, especially if you are an aggressive rider.


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## buddiesconfusion (Feb 7, 2009)

Does the blue rebound adjustment knob on the minute pro supposed to have "clicks" when you turn it? I'm used to having click and new to this minute pro. Also where is a link for the different dump charts for the different shim stacks? The one i found didn't work. Thanks all. This afternoon should be my maiden voyage on the fork and I'm stoked.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

No it's not indexed, so no clicks. Continues over 180 degrees.

The link mentioned in the beginning is dead, the working one is somewhere in here.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Stratus - I had same problem. I managed to unscrew the bolt by pumping up the pressure first, so the compression rod in the air spring is pressed tightly against the bottom of the leg. I was still unable to unscrew it by hand. I took a ring spanner and put it over the bolt head, then took hammer and hit the other end of the spanner to make it rotate. It's like improvised impact gun  Took two or three hits to make the bolt rotate inside the rod. I hope my explanation was clear - don't hit the bolt with the hammer, but use the hammer instead of your hand to make the spanner rotate.

Regarding the pressure and spring. I think the correct procedure is to add more air until you like the mid stroke and don't get too much brake dive. If you bottom out at this pressure too much, add some grease into air chamber to make the spring more progressive. If after those adjustments the small bump compliance is bad you need softer spring. 

I'm 220lbs, and ride 100mm Tower Pro. The weight distribution is ~35/65 - this is important. I use ~100psi and medium spring. I had firm spring first, but for my riding (lot's of small roots, no jumps, very small drops) it felt too harsh. I had one ride with medium spring and it seems good. I also made the shim stack much softer. I have bunch of shims, so I plan to play with different configurations.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/manitou-tower-pro-fork-clydesdales-techical-751708.html lots of good info in here, even if you're not a clyde. i'm sure its been posted before.

arnea that to me seems crazy, but if it works it works.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

fishwrinkle said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/manitou-tower-pro-fork-clydesdales-techical-751708.html lots of good info in here, even if you're not a clyde. i'm sure its been posted before.
> 
> arnea that to me seems crazy, but if it works it works.


It does work and that's how it supposed to work, but it's hard for folks to uderstand. The Tower Pro thread does a much better job of explaining how the coil and air spring interact in the Mars setup. The Clyde thread . . . not so good, unless your 250+ lbs because it mostly promotes "the firmer coil equals more support" misunderstanding.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/tuning-tower-pro-852107.html


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

BTW, I put the ABS+ tuning manual up here: http://home.cyber.ee/arne/ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

yeah i've read most of TaTP and literally all the crayon bell graphs make me sleepy. even you were back and forth on firmness of coil and air and what coil to use. so when my new lowers to arrive (found a crack at rebound knob upon an overhaul) i will install the firm spring and run higher psi to refresh my memory. i'm not trying to ruffle feathers as it's been a while since i adjusted internals. i do see what you're saying to an extent. i just got back into the sport 3 seasons ago. last manitou fork i had was back in 95 and used polymer bumpers. 

here' my setup

200#'s geared, sag at about 25% in attack mode with xfirm spring. 95psi, 5 clicks from max, rebound ~90% open, 5cc grease top side. bottom out 1-2x's a ride. trails consist of roots, rocks, average drop 2-5 feet couple times a ride with occasional jumps with good transitions

when i run the firm spring what psi should i start with? i believe i'm riding this fork at it's limits and might want to look at a more AM fork but can't swing that at the moment


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ktm520 said:


> It does work and that's how it supposed to work, but it's hard for folks to uderstand. The Tower Pro thread does a much better job of explaining how the coil and air spring interact in the Mars setup. The Clyde thread . . . not so good, unless your 250+ lbs because it mostly promotes "the firmer coil equals more support" misunderstanding.


Sorry but not a misunderstanding, the engineers that designed and test the fork say that's how its to be done so air pressure doesn't overcome the spring. Its not a simple negative spring air system.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

fishwrinkle said:


> yeah i've read most of TaTP and literally all the crayon bell graphs make me sleepy. even you were back and forth on firmness of coil and air and what coil to use. so when my new lowers to arrive (found a crack at rebound knob upon an overhaul) i will install the firm spring and run higher psi to refresh my memory. i'm not trying to ruffle feathers as it's been a while since i adjusted internals. i do see what you're saying to an extent. i just got back into the sport 3 seasons ago. last manitou fork i had was back in 95 and used polymer bumpers.
> 
> here' my setup
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say I was back and forth but it took me awhile and testing 3 different coils before I found a setup that had good mid support and small bump. I didn't fully understand what was going on until I modeled the spring curve and could play with all variables. I had to switch from a soft to med spring because I got to that point where the coil was harshly bottoming before the air piston started to move. Before I went up on air, the fork was carpet ride plush but had terrible mid/btm support. Depending on how you ride and at what level, that might work for you.

It's really hard to compare spring setup based on rider mass. If you want to try a firm spring, just guessing, I go up 15-20 psi and just tune by feel. This is also a hard conversation to have without factoring in damping. You can run a ton of damping to get good mid/btm support with a soft spring but it be terrible at absorbing square edge.

***edit*** If you are already at 25% sag with the the xfirm, the firm will probably be too soft, but don't let that keep you from trying it. Judging by how you described your riding style, I'd say you won't like it.



tigris99 said:


> Sorry but not a misunderstanding, the engineers that designed and test the fork say that's how its to be done so air pressure doesn't overcome the spring. Its not a simple negative spring air system.


You have to take that in context of the clyde thread and everything trailbuilder posted from the Manitou Engineers was specifically for the clyde spring. If you recall, he ultimately had to go up on both coil rate and air to get where he needed to be. You can definitely get to the point that the air over powers the coil, but like I noted above it's much higher than that worthless chart on the fork leg. Even Manitou published curves of the clyde spring with 190psi. I also talked to Manitou through out my hole testing, they told me to run firm/xfirm based on my weight. They changed their tune the more we talked and I shared my test results.

The air spring predominately defines the mid/btm portion of the curve. Coil defines sag and mostly effects small bump and the initial portion of travel. That's the short. Don't knock it until you try it.

Anyway, back to abs+ tuning. I have had this same beat my head on the wall discussion more than once on the TP tuning thread.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

arnea said:


> Stratus - I had same problem. I managed to unscrew the bolt by pumping up the pressure first, so the compression rod in the air spring is pressed tightly against the bottom of the leg. I was still unable to unscrew it by hand. I took a ring spanner and put it over the bolt head, then took hammer and hit the other end of the spanner to make it rotate. It's like improvised impact gun  Took two or three hits to make the bolt rotate inside the rod. I hope my explanation was clear - don't hit the bolt with the hammer, but use the hammer instead of your hand to make the spanner rotate.


I found a topic on here regarding this problem, the hammer and spanner approach was suggested there too. I tried it, but still no luck sadly. Kinda running out of options I'm afraid. Thought about griding the bolt head of.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

There is one more non-destructive option as described here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/some-days-just-suck-853791.html#post10381378

I haven't tried it myself, but you should be able to remove the piston (compress the fork fast and it should pop out) and then push long 5mm allen key from the top of the fork, down through the blue rod. The end of compression rod has 5mm allen head. There is black rubber plug on top of blue rod, you should push it out with the allen key.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Can anyone tell me what the weight difference between the marvel pro 80/100 and 100/120 version is?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have the expert version which is 60g heavier (if you get pro with steel steerer) only because of damper, its in the stancion instead of separate cartridge in the stancion. Also can adjust 80-120 on the fork adding/removing spacers, im guessing damper cartridge is limiting that part but can't be more than 10-15g difference in the 2. 20mm more travel in damper but less spacers compression side. Not enough you or anyone else would ever be able to notice.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

I assume you mean the expert is +60g on the pro? The Manitou tech said the 100mm can be internally adjusted to 80mm but not to 120mm and the 120mm version can be adjusted to 100mm.


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

OFFcourse said:


> The Manitou tech said the 100mm can be internally adjusted to 80mm but not to 120mm and the 120mm version can be adjusted to 100mm.


The 80/100mm version has a different Compression Rod Assembly and a different CSU to the 100/120mm version.

Travel adjustments are made with internal spacers: http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2014-Aftermarket-Fork-Travel-Adjust-Guide.pdf


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya must be different on the pro because of the damper cause my expert (just bought last August) I can go to either extreme, box included extra spacers and was preset at 100.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

The 2 spacers are to reduce the travel by 10mm each, to 90 or 80mm travel.
I didn't think the 100mm forks could be lengthened though?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

My 29er version goes all the way either direction, 80-120. I can stuff in a max of 4 spacers to get 80, only 2 in is 100, take them out its 120. I dunno why mine is different but I paid the lbs price to make sure I got absolute latest version so offset was 48 etc. But odd only expert can do this.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Ill open mine up and let ya know when they arrive I got the 120s


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Any youtube vids on adjusting the travel? Can't seem to find any. Found the tech doc http://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2014-Aftermarket-Fork-Travel-Adjust-Guide.pdf
but it's nice to see it done too, cheers


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Its really simple if u just read the instructions on the doc, just make sure to turn the ring for the rebound damper adjustment the right way when you pull the lowers off, it snaps off easy if you do it wrong.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Got the fork on the bike, I weight about 85kg (188lbs) with pack etc. I know the fork will loosen up as it wears in just curious what air pressure others are running on the marvel pro 120. I've got it at 70psi atm with the rebound around halfway.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Pressure is rider/bike specific for say and feel. Pressure number actually means little because every shock pump is different. Use sag to sort out air pressure, once u dial it in record the pressure ur pump says so u know for next time.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

Still no luck removing the bolt, but haven't really tried either. Haven't had time really, but managed to get a few rides in. Most of them on road for training purposes, but a bit offroad aswell, with the pressure just exceeding max (...) the brake dive was a bit more acceptable, but the transition from coil to air seemed to be too noticable in a negative way. The damper didn't seem correct that either, running close to max it felt both wallowy and jerky. 

But one of the reasons to pick up this fork was the ability to easily tune the damper yourself, hence this topic. But as is mentioned (wisely) in the beginning of the topic, spring rate trumps damping, so I thought to get that in order first. But since the fork doenst want to let go of its lowers that isn't going anywhere soon. Someone pointed out earlier to me, not to try and get a higher spring rate, as in the Tower Pro tuning topic, quite a few heavier riders found that not to be what they were looking for. 

So last week I decided to open up the damper after all and take another look at the tuning guide. Read the descriptions with the various shim stacks, kinda knew what I was looking for and what was possible with the standard shim stack (stock trail) and no additional shims. That doesn't leave all that much options, but one stack looked interesting, so I took out the speed shim and with two platform shims you ofcourse get the stock xc stack.

Haven't had time yet to take it for a good ride, I did try it out in the street quite a bit and on some 'obstacles' and it seems promising. The excessive brake dive is gone and the fork stays up in it's travel and there is a lot more support along the way, mid stroke especially. Full open to five clicks from max feels good, any clicks more to max makes it feel too harsh, but the pressure was still high at that time (Sag was too low, so that's a giveaway). Dropped the pressure to more normal values and hope to try it out on some trails soon. 

One thing I noticed opening up the damper, was that my compression piston is blue, on all the photo's everyone elses is red. I thought I did see a blue one in the Manitou shim kit. Any logic behind that?

Thanks.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Still no luck removing the bolt, but haven't really tried either. Haven't had time really, but managed to get a few rides in. Most of them on road for training purposes, but a bit offroad aswell, with the pressure just exceeding max (...) the brake dive was a bit more acceptable, but the transition from coil to air seemed to be too noticable in a negative way. The damper didn't seem correct that either, running close to max it felt both wallowy and jerky.


Dude, there is no max pressure so to speak. Pull that sticker off the lower and throw it away. How much air are you running? My dad is the same weight (just for reference) and I have him setup with a firm spring (120) and 120 psi. I highly doubt you are feeling the transition from coil to air.

Damping setup is a personal thing. IMO, the xc stack is a mistake unless you want an ultra firm lockout at the sacrifice of small/square bump performance.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Omg dont do xc stock stack, im 275 and that stack was rough.

Get ur spring rate right them rip out a platform shim, turn knob to 3-4 clicks open from lock. Brake dive goes to almost non existent but doesn't beat the crap put of you. Your actually approaching it backwards from what the tuning guide says to do.


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## Jdirt (May 25, 2013)

*ok i am in the exact same situation.*



mullen119 said:


> You would actually want to remove shims. The Dial on the outside of your fork is low speed compression. The Shims are the high speed compression blow off. If you remove shims, the fork will open the shim stack with less force. So if you remove one or two shims, you will be able to have your low speed one or two clicks from closed(or completely closed if needed) and have the fork still move on impacts.
> 
> ok, are you saying that low speed compression via the red dial at the top of the fork affects low speed compression damping independently of the shims in the stack?
> 
> ...


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Jdirt said:


> for example you have two stacks both at 2 clicks out from max: one stack has 4 19mm shims and other has 2 19mm shims. would both stack behave similarly in regards to pedal bob and and other low speed compression events?
> 
> thank you.


No, the stiffer stack would have more damping throughout the whole curve, for this specific example. Now, when you start getting out in the last half of the adjustment range, the stack stiffness has a lesser effect on the lsc range.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Btw the 19mm shims are platform shims so the more you add the stiffer and rougher the damper is going to be. Its better in most cases to use less (most only use 1 19mm or add the tension relief shims between the 17mm and 19mm) platforms shims and use 17mm "speed shims" to control most of the damping curve. Its the knob that controls brake dive and pedal bob more. Closer to lockout, the less there is, but more your reliant on the shim stack being tuned properly so your not feeling like your on a rigid fork.


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi All. Ive got a 2012 Marvel Expert (120mm) that I bought new about 18 months ago. The rebound has always been super-fast even with the damping set at max. Im about 85kgs (187 pounds) if that makes a difference, and I ride trails with loads of rocks, small drops (1 ft) and small jumps.
Other than using 7.5w oil (instead of the 5w), is there anything I can do with the rebound shims? The new oil is the cheaper option, but it might also affect the compression??
Any advise would be awesome. 
Thanks


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Sounds like the fork might need an overhaul. Heavier oil may help but may also just mask the issues.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Anyone have a Milo remote kit they would like to off load?


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

pm sent


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Pembo6 said:


> Hi All. Ive got a 2012 Marvel Expert (120mm) that I bought new about 18 months ago. The rebound has always been super-fast even with the damping set at max. Im about 85kgs (187 pounds) if that makes a difference, and I ride trails with loads of rocks, small drops (1 ft) and small jumps.
> 
> Other than using 7.5w oil (instead of the 5w), is there anything I can do with the rebound shims? The new oil is the cheaper option, but it might also affect the compression??
> 
> ...


First need to drop the lowers, I had a problem with my '14 marvel where the nut retaining the shim stack came loose. Messed up rebound and compression damping.

If your compression damping adjustments work fine and have full affect, then you'll need to tune the shim stack. But on mine im a Clyde and rebound damping was great stock till I got my air pressure up where I needed it.

If you change the oil weight you'll have to retune the compression damper as well.


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

Thanks Tigris99. Compression is fine. I might try the heavier fluid and see how the compression handles it.


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## Stratus (Mar 29, 2015)

ktm520 said:


> Dude, there is no max pressure so to speak. Pull that sticker off the lower and throw it away. How much air are you running? My dad is the same weight (just for reference) and I have him setup with a firm spring (120) and 120 psi. I highly doubt you are feeling the transition from coil to air.


Is there really no maximum? Or is it just for legal reasons (CYA or how you call it)? I thought Manitou being run by engineers it was based on psysical constraints and design choices, as all other (full) air sprung forks definitely have a maximum, or is there something else going on here, just interested.

Haha pulling the sticker of and throwing it away, that's a good tip for more 'air tables'. 
That time I was running about 120 psi (indicated by my shock pump, so only for my own reference), 140mm, firm: I finally got the lowers of whoo! So I had a chance to check the spring rate, firm indeed as per spec. That was with the stock Trail stack though.

Put it back together, went to 80-90 psi and went for a quick testride, this was with the XC stack. Not that bad, small bump compliance was still good (better than my SiD...), brake dive was better controlled, out of seat pedalling and full pull sprinting was no problem, not much suspension pump going on, kinda how I like it, stayed higer up in the travel generally. Did seem to notice some dive/compression through sharp corners/berms (g-outs?). Almost forgot, kinda important, ABS+ knob was at 3 or 4 clicks from MAX.

Yesterday took it across the border for some more techincal riding, bit of climbing, descending, plenty of roots and a bit of rock, nice technical singletrack. Good test for the fork at the same time, not bad. 
Had a few bottom-outs, as the sag inidicator was near the top (as far as that goes with a Manitou), but didn't notice any harsh cluncks. But it could do with a bit more HSC, guessing from this one ride.



> Damping setup is a personal thing. IMO, the xc stack is a mistake unless you want an ultra firm lockout at the sacrifice of small/square bump performance.


It certainly is, no doubt about that. 
With the ABS+ knob on max it's quite firm indeed, but that isn't something I require, almost never use a lockout, always ride open. But small bump and square edge performance wasn't half bad. Adjuster at 4-5 clicks from max in this case.



tigris99 said:


> Omg dont do xc stock stack, im 275 and that stack was rough.
> 
> Get ur spring rate right them rip out a platform shim, turn knob to 3-4 clicks open from lock. Brake dive goes to almost non existent but doesn't beat the crap put of you. Your actually approaching it backwards from what the tuning guide says to do.


Didn't notice it to be rough or harsh. 

So go to one speed shim and one platform from stock? Might try that.
After yesterday's ride and some observations, I did open up the damper again, and went back to stock Trail. Let's see if you are right. 
Pressure is at 90 psi now. Took it for a short spin in the street to feel how it compares, better than last time with that setup it seemed.

But when I openend up the damper to change the stack, I might have found a reason, I must have misread the torque value with which to tighten the 13mm nut at the bottom, tightened too snugly (with both stacks maybe), as the check valve (shim) bended a bit when I tightened it down. Aha, then it doesn't really stop oil form flowing past.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Stratus said:


> Is there really no maximum? Or is it just for legal reasons (CYA or how you call it)? I thought Manitou being run by engineers it was based on psysical constraints and design choices, as all other (full) air sprung forks definitely have a maximum, or is there something else going on here, just interested.


I'm not going to speculate the method behind the madness of those spring charts, but like I already said, Manitou has published spring curves of the XX spring with 190psi. Sure, there is some mechanical limit to the piston seal and chamber/fork leg, but if you're not pushing 190psi, don't sweat some notional limit.

The biggest mistake you can make as a newbie tuner is assuming that you are pretty close and calling it quits. Don't stop making changes until you know for sure that you have overshot the target, and then backup. That being said, I still think you are over damped and under sprung. If you don't want a firm lockout, change to linear stack and go way up on your air for good mid/btm support.

You bent the rebound check shim because you didn't install it right. The shim has to be centered on the plastic spring perch. It actually rides up and down the should of the perch when it opens and closes. It's not clamped like the comp shims, and it doesn't deflect, the hole shim floats on the shoulder. When the nut just barely snugs things down, pull up on the shim and makes sure it opens, floats. If not, it's not installed correctly.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm expecting a Manitou Marvel Comp 120 to arrive tomorrow or the next day for my single speed. It should have a MILO with it, but not installed. It sounds like the MILO evokes some pretty mixed feelings, so lets leave that completely out of the equation for a while. My questions are this:

Does anyone know which stack the Marvel Comp 120 comes with?

Does anyone have any notion where I might want to go from stock, given: I'm 220ish kitted up, ride technical XC style trails, small drops, occasional small jumps. Most trails are rooty or rocky.

If I understand what I've read in this thread correctly, I'll likely want a more stout spring (which determines sag?) at the very least. Can anyone confirm this, or provide other pointers? Thanks.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

The Marvel's should come with the XC stack. Add a 17.5mm x 0.2mm shim and it becomes the trail stack.
Was reading about this last night as I want to try it on my 100mm Expert's.
Does the TS Air use a spring?


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## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

The Marvel Comp uses a regular air spring, not the air spring plus coil spring combo used in the Minute Pro. All you need to do with the Marvel Comp is set the air pressure, there is no coil spring to swap. As for the shim stack, the Marvel series uses the XC stack, hard to say how it'll work for you since I have no idea where you prefer to set the adjustment, which fork you were using before, and how you want the fork to feel. I'd say ride it and see how it feels, then go from there.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Marvel expert and pro use ISO air not Ts, has a negative spring just not adjustable like MARS air. Comp uses Ts so no negative spring.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

TS also has a negative spring.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ktm520 said:


> TS also has a negative spring.


I think the only one with no negative spring is the Dorado air (Dorodo/Mattoc/Magnum) and I guess the ACT which is coil with air preload.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Getting educated already - thanks guys. I was worried I may have to change out a spring to even begin to get the ride right. The fork coming off the bike is a slightly shorter rigid steel fork, which has been great fun, but my upper body has been telling me I'm not as good a damper as I used to be, so I'm shooting for some unknown level of plushness out of this fork. It will be important that it locks out for climbs, and important that it unlocks and takes the edge off every where else. Can't have a soft suspension fork slowing a single speeder down on the climbs, right? Tracking info says the fork should arrive this afternoon, so it'll likely take a couple days for the LBS to install it and cut the steerer for me, etc, then we'll get a look at it.

Thanks for the answers so far, I'm sure I'll end up with more. This is an awesome thread, by the way. It's one of the reasons I decided to pull the trigger on this fork. Maybe you guys should be getting kickbacks from Manitou?


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

It took a while to get my bike back with the fork on it because the shop had to order a post mount adaptor (never thought about that) for the front brake since the old fork was ISO. I picked the bike up from the shop and went straight to the trail with it, and based on the tuning sticker on the fork, but 75 PSI in the fork (figuring for the low end of 220 since I'm about 215+hydration pack). I cranked the damper back to three clicks from locked out to get the brake dive under control, and it felt pretty good. I'm going to actually measure the sag at some point today and see if the air pressure is in the ball park.

Big question is this: I see the MILO looks like an on/off unit. I also see some indication that it doesn't provide the full range of adjustment. Can anyone comment on how much or how little adjustment it can give? For instance, if my sag is in the ball park with 75 PSI, can I make the MILO only run from closed to three clicks open?

I have to be honest, I'm super impressed with how good this fork felt for just throwing some air in it and hitting a trail with some rock gardens and real technical stuff.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes, MILO is on/off and it doesn't pull enough cable to spin LSC knob across its full range. Usually MILOs are set up so as to close off LSC completely when engaged.

However, it (the LSC knob, either with MILO attached or not) has no relation to the fork's air spring pressure, those are independent settings.

As to how much adjustment does MILO give, I'd say that with factory damper oil the MILO "open" position should be enough for a plush ride. However take it with a grain of salt form me as my idea of plush is anything that bobs when I pedal out of saddle.  -- running a rigid fork currently and happy so far.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Yes, MILO is on/off and it doesn't pull enough cable to spin LSC knob across its full range. Usually MILOs are set up so as to close off LSC completely when engaged.
> 
> However, it (the LSC knob, either with MILO attached or not) has no relation to the fork's air spring pressure, those are independent settings.
> 
> As to how much adjustment does MILO give, I'd say that with factory damper oil the MILO "open" position should be enough for a plush ride. However take it with a grain of salt form me as my idea of plush is anything that bobs when I pedal out of saddle.  -- running a rigid fork currently and happy so far.


Right, I get the air pressure isn't affected but LSC, but I was able to tune out some brake dive by closing down on the LSC some. While they're independent settings, they do interact.

When I actually checked sag %, it looks like somewhere between 70 and 75 PSI is where the air should be, but brake dive is still an issue. I'm going to get it close and ride it through the break-in and see what happens at that point.

I put the MILO on (took about a half hour, including fishing one of the metal balls out of the bottom of one of the little holes the springs are supposed to sit in because I've got fat fingers) and rigged it up to lock out, and turn only the distance of three clicks back towards open by fiddling with where i put the spring that returns the knob.

I'm supposed to hit a pretty fun trail with a group on Saturday, so I'll have a much better picture of how all of this works together then, but so far, I'm liking the stock setup pretty well. I'm coming off a rigid fork, so the lock out is important to me for climbs (SS and all that) but yes, anything not rigid becomes plush when you kick the lockout off.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

does anyone know the dyno of a 2012 manitou tower pro?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

spyghost said:


> does anyone know the dyno of a 2012 manitou tower pro?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All the damper dyno charts are in the abs+ tuning guide. Are you asking which tune they come with?


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

Dougal said:


> All the damper dyno charts are in the abs+ tuning guide. Are you asking which tune they come with?


i dont have a tuning guide unfortunately.

yes im asking for the stock shims that came with the fork as brand new.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Standard trail stack. 2 platform 1 speed shim.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

tigris99 said:


> Standard trail stack. 2 platform 1 speed shim.


what thickness? any charts you can share?

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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

spyghost said:


> what thickness? any charts you can share?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From the first post.
http://goo.gl/JaqWO


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Is it possible that I feel less LSC damping just because I changed fork seals? Now I have installed Enduro seals, which appear smoother than stock Manitou's (pretty less stiction). Everything in the abs+ damper configuration has not changed. I checked oil level 2 times. Still, it seems there is less LSC damping. Even when abs+ is maxed, the fork is not completely locked out (previously it was, almost).


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Did u change the oil in the damper? Did you check the oil level as shown in manitou manual? Did u compress forks several times with dampers set full open and then let sit so air trapped in the fluid can escape to the top of the damper?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

solitone said:


> Is it possible that I feel less LSC damping just because I changed fork seals? Now I have installed Enduro seals, which appear smoother than stock Manitou's (pretty less stiction). Everything in the abs+ damper configuration has not changed. I checked oil level 2 times. Still, it seems there is less LSC damping. Even when abs+ is maxed, the fork is not completely locked out (previously it was, almost).


Most definitely. Friction is another form/source of damping in any suspension system. Reduce friction and reduce the total damping. I recently switched to Fox 20wt gold in my Tower and had to add a click of lsc. Pretty amazing stuff.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ktm520 said:


> Most definitely. Friction is another form/source of damping in any suspension system. Reduce friction and reduce the total damping. I recently switched to Fox 20wt gold in my Tower and had to add a click of lsc. Pretty amazing stuff.


Did you put that in your lowers im assuming? Ive been looking for something better than just synthetic oil (though I dont think I wanna see the price lol). I know prep m on the seals at rebuild helps alot but that is eventually washed away by the oil in the lowers.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Did you put that in your lowers im assuming? Ive been looking for something better than just synthetic oil (though I dont think I wanna see the price lol). I know prep m on the seals at rebuild helps alot but that is eventually washed away by the oil in the lowers.


Yes, lowers. I also use it in my air shocks. A quart will last a long time. It's worth it.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> Did u change the oil in the damper? Did you check the oil level as shown in manitou manual? Did u compress forks several times with dampers set full open and then let sit so air trapped in the fluid can escape to the top of the damper?


Yes, I changed oil and followed that procedure. After the 1st ride I also removed the damper again to double check oil level, and it appeared to be right.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Did you put that in your lowers im assuming? Ive been looking for something better than just synthetic oil (though I dont think I wanna see the price lol). I know prep m on the seals at rebuild helps alot but that is eventually washed away by the oil in the lowers.


Try Motorex Supergliss.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

Reverted back to standard trail stack. 2 blowoff shims and one velocity shim, all .2 mm thick. Now seems good again. Tomorrow I'll test it on the trail.

Previously I had just one .2 blowoff shim with one .15 velocity shim. Unbelievable how significantly LSC was affected by fork seals..


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

solitone said:


> Reverted back to standard trail stack. 2 blowoff shims and one velocity shim, all .2 mm thick. Now seems good again. Tomorrow I'll test it on the trail.
> 
> Previously I had just one .2 blowoff shim with one .15 velocity shim. Unbelievable how significantly LSC was affected by fork seals..


That's a big jump in valving. Just changing bath oil can make a big difference. I don't think the seals where a major factor. Manitou seals are pretty good. As soon as mine are gone, I'm going to try a set of Fox seals.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

ktm520 said:


> That's a big jump in valving. Just changing bath oil can make a big difference. I don't think the seals where a major factor. Manitou seals are pretty good. As soon as mine are gone, I'm going to try a set of Fox seals.


Don't know. Last time I serviced the fork I used the same oil I used this time, the only thing different are seals, so..


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Did you take the rebound valve out or mess with it in any way? Or same with the compression side. If you don't get the check valve shim in exactly perfect it will screw your damping all up. Dont ask how I know lol, 2 am is not a good time to make damper adjustments lol.


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## solitone (Apr 27, 2011)

^^ No, I didn't do anything wierd. Just serviced fork as per service manual, as I did several other times before. Only thing different is seals installed.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Can any lightweight (135lb here) share their setups? I am on a 27.5 120mm Marvel Pro and riding rough XC. Here are some of my notes:
-Got it used. Came with 3 x 19x2.0 XC shim kit. This was way to harsh

-Went to EK-12611-02 |60-65psi | Max-6 or 7 even to full open. This was better, but not able to get full travel . 

-Tried a modified CV-11711-01 due to shim availability. 
Clamp shim|19x0.15t | 10.5x0.25t | 17.5x0.2
-65psi, Max-6. Too soft and divvy. 

-modified EK-12611-02 with 19x0.10 instead of the 19x0.15
60-65psi| Max-5 or 6

-repeating with the above with 60psi, max-1 or max-2 and faster rebound

I am finding that rebound is one of the hardest things for me to tune. There seems a point in turning the knob where it goes from damped to bouncy. 

is there any information on how to tune the rebound damper?

-I got a tip from Mullen to try a linear stack. I'll post my results

-


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Your first problem is running damper at max 6 and expecting it not to dive. That's almost full open low speed. Changing the shim stack does NOTHING for low speed setting. And low speed setting is the knob, knob adjusts nothing in the shim stack which is high speed.

Secondly weight matters little for the shim stack. Also what % sag are you running. Psi number is another "means nothing" do to pump differences. 

You need to set the knob where you want it for lack of dive (I ride at max 3-4) then tune ur shim stack for high speed where you want it. 

Also stop worrying about "getting full travel" on xc trails, especially on a 120mm fork. My trails are really rough "xc" and 80mm is plenty, I ride at 110 travel and never use it all unless I land hard. Be worried about control and feel, not how much travel you use.

As for rebound, no guide for tuning. But if you take a little bit of time to understand the fairly simple concept of how the shims work, you can tune it but its more difficult. And very easy to break the rebound system if you do t have the proper tools to be working on it. I did tune my rebound because of the higher pressures I have to run.


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

Ahh, finally some shim talk... it's been a while 
Linear stacks are great for freeridey biking, but for XC purposes I prefer a preloaded stack, so that there is very little damping on the blowoff. 
You can try to do a {clamp, 19x0.15} configuration. Very simple, but the increased preload should keep the brake dive at bay, while the extremely digressive profile of the lack of shims should make rocky sections use a lot of travel. If it still bottoms out, you can stack some light shims between the clamp and the other shims to increase preload+highspeed, or you can increase air pressure, or reduce air-chamber volume.

For the rebound, I tend to slowly roll around in the parking lot, and then suddenly jam my weight on the handlebars, trying to use as much travel as I can. I keep my arms stiff, and try to feel whether the rebound jumps beyond sag, and back down again. I aim for a slightly underdamped/critically damped feel:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Can any lightweight (135lb here) share their setups? I am on a 27.5 120mm Marvel Pro and riding rough XC. Here are some of my notes:
> -Got it used. Came with 3 x 19x2.0 XC shim kit. This was way to harsh
> 
> -Went to EK-12611-02 |60-65psi | Max-6 or 7 even to full open. This was better, but not able to get full travel .
> ...


I've got my wife running the lightest linear tune (I think it's CV-11411-11, but haven't got records handy).
I tune it to about halfway on the LS dial and it appears to work very well. It's stable enough that people 20kg heavier can get on and ride and it still feels like it should.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Been messing with the shim stack on my 120 marvel which came with the XC stack (that had a solid platform) and running the trail stack now (which is a lot more plush) its on my single speed tho and I'm really missing the platform when I'm climbing out of the saddle. Any suggestions on what to try next?

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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

I found the XC stack while having a nice platform was a bit more punishing on ruff stuff

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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

The platform in XC stack is way too strong. For a singlespeed I'd leave just enough platform to prevent bob while standing (leaving 1-2 thinnest platform shims and playing with their preload). The fork wouldn't be plush though, but as soon as you _really_ need it, it would kick in.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm after an XC stack with maybe 10mm of bob when climbing out of the saddle. Should be just playing around with a couple of different thickness preload shims.
It's either a softened XC stack or a trail stack with more platform.


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi all. Can anyone confirm the inside diameter (ID) for the compression shims? Is it 8mm ??
Thanks


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes, it is 8mm


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

Thanks Arnea.


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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 26, 2009)

Hello, new owner of a Marvel Comp here.
Am I right in my understanding than when the compression knob is fully open, shim stacks behave similar?

I'm looking mainly for small bump compliance, less for avoiding brake dive and even less for avoiding pedal bob. Do I still need a tuning if I leave the ABS at MAX-8 as in fully open?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Lucky Luciano said:


> Hello, new owner of a Marvel Comp here.
> Am I right in my understanding than when the compression knob is fully open, shim stacks behave similar?
> 
> I'm looking mainly for small bump compliance, less for avoiding brake dive and even less for avoiding pedal bob. Do I still need a tuning if I leave the ABS at MAX-8 as in fully open?


Fully open only controls the bypass around the shims which is quite small. Oil still transfers through the shims on all but the slowest movements. The softer the shim stack the more oil will flow through it.


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

I recently changed my Marvel shim stack from XC to teh Trail version. Pretty sure I removed both platform shims and I added a speed shim (18 OD x 0.2 thick). I weigh about 72kh without gear, and it made a significant difference. I have always run teh fork fully open. But now I get MUCHbetter small bump sensitivity. I thought I might blow through the travel muich faster but that hasnt been a problem. The suspension on big hits has remained unchanged. I highly recomend the changes. Also, I havent noticed any brake dive or pedal bobn. Ive got the 120mm version.


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## Pembo6 (Jul 17, 2013)

Forgot to mention. Be very careful with the torque when tightening the shim stack. Dont over tighten or you will buckly the shims. Only need the slightest bit of torque.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

On full open not much is going to change because the shim stack has little effect. I can't believe anyone would ride these full open as dive and Bob is impossible to deal with. But if your exceptionally light weight or used to a fork with a very bad damper, then it's possible I guess. I'm not a great rider or anything, but brake dive and Bob drove me nuts out of the box on anything more open than 5 clicks open. Felt like I was riding a bike with a Walmart fork that had rebound dampening at least.

Actually sounds more like you have your air pressure too high on the air spring. Marvel expert and pro versions have a negative spring which gives awesome small bump compliance to nce the fork has a few rides on it and you have your air pressure set correctly.



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## Lucky Luciano (Aug 26, 2009)

Sag is at about 25% so pressure should be OK. I'm gonna try it at sag 30% too, and I'm still in the break-in period (only ridden 5 hour on road).

I bought the Comp because nobody here or elsewhere could explain clearly how Expert/Pro would be better than the Comp, for 90 euros more.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya I didn't see you ask that, I could have explained. And all the info is on manitou's website. The comp your not going to get the small bump compliance of better forks due to the air spring. TS air is a simple and basic air spring system. The expert and pro use ISO air which has a negative spring to give the complainace.

Expert vs pro I see no gain besides for the weight weenies. The damper is reduced to cartridge instead of full leg bath. Less fluid in the damper = lower weight. Though I do not know if expert is available all thru axle variants. I just know it comes in 15mm.

Comp version is limited and messing with the damper is going to do little (is it even abs+?). It will improve after some use. Reducing platform shims would help at speed if you want to close the damper more (so it's actually doing something).

Another thing that may help (we can do it with ISO air, not sure on TS air) is making the air spring more progressive by adding oil to the air spring (very small amounts) and running your pressure lower.

Sag is only a STARTING POINT. You adjust more or less depends on what you need. There is alot that can be tuned on manitou's forks, takes time and research to learn and understand how to adjust each thing.

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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Ya I didn't see you ask that, I could have explained. And all the info is on manitou's website. The comp your not going to get the small bump compliance of better forks due to the air spring. TS air is a simple and basic air spring system. The expert and pro use ISO air which has a negative spring to give the complainace.
> 
> Expert vs pro I see no gain besides for the weight weenies. The damper is reduced to cartridge instead of full leg bath. Less fluid in the damper = lower weight. Though I do not know if expert is available all thru axle variants. I just know it comes in 15mm.
> 
> ...


Iso air and ts air are nearly identical spring systems. Both are positive air springs with negative coil springs. The only difference is that there is a soft, elastomer like bumper between the piston and push rod that helps the first few mm of travel be free of seal drag. One is not much different from the other performance wise.

Also, adding oil on the piston doesn't really work. The oil makes it past the quad ring very quickly. Manitou is no longer specing oil on the pistons in new forks, opting for a good coating of suspension grease (slicoleum/slick honey) instead. It just works better.

Definitely move away from the stock xc stack. It's far to stiff for normal riding. Trail stacks or even linear work much better, allowing you to dial in a proper lsc setting without a harsh feel


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I didn't know they got away from the oil, I'll have to remember that during my next fork service. I have a big tube of prep m so I'm covered there

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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> I didn't know they got away from the oil, I'll have to remember that during my next fork service. I have a big tube of prep m so I'm covered there
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


It just works better. It caused issues on the mattoc because the oil fairly quickly made its way to the negative chamber. The TS/iso air system don't show issues as quickly because of the negative coil, but after a few rides the piston is dry and performance suffers.

Prep m is decent, but fairly thin when temperatures get warm. That's why the switch to slicoleum. It tends to stay in place longer when being used as a primary lubricant.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's one thing i haven't seen yet as I opened my system several times during tuning. Being a big guy, they tune well but takes a little more time. Each change I would ride a few times. 

Never had a dry air piston but between the last 2 changes I did notice 95% of the extra oil I had put in the air chamber was gone. Thought maybe I had forgot to put it back in (which I'm insanely meticulous so was surprised). But this would explain things, it just slowly worked it's way past into the bottom of the fork. Shocking oil makes it through but air doesnt (not at a noticeable rate anyway)

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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> That's one thing i haven't seen yet as I opened my system several times during tuning. Being a big guy, they tune well but takes a little more time. Each change I would ride a few times.
> 
> Never had a dry air piston but between the last 2 changes I did notice 95% of the extra oil I had put in the air chamber was gone. Thought maybe I had forgot to put it back in (which I'm insanely meticulous so was surprised). But this would explain things, it just slowly worked it's way past into the bottom of the fork. Shocking oil makes it through but air doesnt (not at a noticeable rate anyway)
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


The two rides I stated is for the few ml called for. More would last longer.

What happens is the oil clings to the walls and the seals slide past some of it rather than wiping it clean. On the rebound stroke, it pushes just a little bit down to the bottom, lost into the negative spring. Multiply that by thousands of stokes and it all disappears. You can solve it by having a lip on the quad ring to wipe the oil clean, but that adds friction.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya I didn't even think about all that. I put extra in for changing progression but noticed on the last service (after a season) it was all gone, not dry but very little in there and after bike Sat for a bit, started seeing a bit of stiction. Never thought about the internal seal design.

Which I'm fine with that, I'll stuff some prep m in there on this service I'm about to do (well just change lower oil, clean/grease wipers, etc). Don't see a point right now with almost full tube of prep m to buy something different as I'm on a limited budget. Added a fat bike to my garage and it needs love too (bought used) after riding it hard and putting it away wet all season.

Thanks for the info there, I didn't know about that update. But too my Marvel's are going on season 3 technically with first 2 being short. Bought forks in August yr 1, last yr I was down for several months do to elbow injury followed by surgery to fix it. I still service it each year regardless. But since everything is like new, saw no need to check into anything. This year it'll probably see it a couple times.

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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Ya I didn't even think about all that. I put extra in for changing progression but noticed on the last service (after a season) it was all gone, not dry but very little in there and after bike Sat for a bit, started seeing a bit of stiction. Never thought about the internal seal design.
> 
> Which I'm fine with that, I'll stuff some prep m in there on this service I'm about to do (well just change lower oil, clean/grease wipers, etc). Don't see a point right now with almost full tube of prep m to buy something different as I'm on a limited budget. Added a fat bike to my garage and it needs love too (bought used) after riding it hard and putting it away wet all season.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: prep m works fine, I wouldn't worry about it. Just load it on and put a little on top the piston to work it's way down over time


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

I recently got a 100mm 29er Marvel comp and have been slowly reading through and digesting all the available ABS+ tuning info including the Manitou shim stack tuning guide.

Looking a bit further trying to research the effects of shim stack tuning, it pretty quickly became apparent that shock tuners from the motorcycle world have developed a deep understanding and knowledge of the the complex dynamics of shock tuning that would be potentially beneficial for a better understanding of out ABS+ manitous. One of the sources I came across was the commercial spreadsheet calculation program Shim ReStackor, Finally software to tune a shim stack 
From the trial demo, the shimrestacker program looks to be very detailed but with a steep introductory learning curve and much of the preset options and documentation is geared more directly for motorcross shocks. I would be curious if anyone has ever successfully configured shimrestacker to analyze manitou fork ABS+ shim tuning or if there are any similar (but perhaps less complex) shim stack calculation programs available?

Short of trying to program an entire physics simulation calculator, it occurred to me that it might not be too difficult to input all the manitou factory ABS+ tuning guide info into a spreadsheet in order to help sort out some of the tuning options. The combine HSC + LSC dyno curves would be complicated to model but it should not be to difficult to calcualte the overall spring rate, pre-load tension and platform levels for some of the more basic tuning curves. Has anyone tried something similar ?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not sure how one can model the ABS+ special piston with lip in the Shim Restackor. Actually tuning of the ABS+ is so fast and the number of reasonable combinations is not big - so the easiest (and most fun) way is just start experimenting. 

First question is - do you need any preload at all? I recommend to check out linear stacks first. I ride cross country and use light linear stack with low speed needle almost closed - it has very good small bump sensitivity and good midstroke. I like to spin (no out of saddle sprints) and this stack fits me very well.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK Mullen, decided to do a full service. Trying something different too. First I did as advised, prep m in the air chamber.

Went linear stack (2 speed and 1 13mm to stiffen things up on are hard hit), 120mm with around 30% sag. Hopefully smooth things out while I keep my lsc half closed to keep dive/Bob where I like it.

@gray: advise, I did the sheets and all that, spent hours burning them into my brain. Outcome is I have no idea where the print offs are, could care less. Simple things to know.

Platform shim creates a "blow off" type effect. The biggest diameter ones. Unless you want it to have a platform for climbs, just leave them out. As I did now, too harsh for my liking as my climbs always have roots and crap.

Speed shims: these are your linear damping. More/thicker the stronger the effect. Useful info is that it takes (numbers are for reference, not actual thicknesses) 3 of a .01 thickness to equal 1 .02 thickness for damping effect.

13mm shims create a "second stage" to the linear. On small bumps the speed shims deal with it, when you have a bigger hit, the speed shims want to open all the way, but the 13mm shim (s) stiffen the speed shims after they open to a certain point. Increasing damping effect when you have a big hit to reduce bottom out.

May not be 100% correct way of explaining it but that's how I have it in my head. Shims are easy to swap around so why not give yourself more excuses to ride. Testing out fork tuning. Fancy graphs and curves give you a reference to understand how each shim size effects properties. Beyond that they are totally useless as outside temp, variations in rider weight and so on will change those curves.

LAB TESTS ARE ONLY FOR A REFERENCE AS A STARTING POINT, THEY ARE NOT REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE

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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Useful info is that it takes (numbers are for reference, not actual thicknesses) 3 of a .01 thickness to equal 1 .02 thickness for damping effect.


I'm pretty sure that it takes about 8 .1 shims to have equal damping effect of 1 .2 shim. There is cubic relationship between thickness and stiffness of shims.

From Shim Restackor page (http://www.shimrestackor.com/Code/Sample_Applications/Demo_3Clk/3clk-softer.htm):

"Here, you could attempt to apply the typical shim stack rules of thumb: stack stiffness varies with the diameter squared and the thickness cubed"


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I specifically said "numbers for reference"

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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes, but the ratio is same for .01 and .02 mm shims. You need 8 .01 shims to get stiffness of single .02 shim.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Dude for the love of God, I don't have my sheets around to look at SO I WAS USING RANDOM NUMBERS, get over it. Ratio is 3:1,8:1,or 100:1 I don't care, was a simple point I was trying to make to explain regarding just use one thicker shim instead stacking. Basically don't over think it cause it's a waste of time.

What part of I don't use my sheets (and I don't use more than a couple of the same shim diameters stacked) did you miss???

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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Dude for the love of God, I don't have my sheets around to look at SO I WAS USING RANDOM NUMBERS, get over it. Ratio is 3:1,8:1,or 100:1 I don't care, was a simple point I was trying to make to explain regarding just use one thicker shim instead stacking. Basically don't over think it cause it's a waste of time.


Ok, I didn't realize that all the number weres random. I thought that only thicknesses were selected arbitrarily.



tigris99 said:


> What part of I don't use my sheets (and I don't use more than a couple of the same shim diameters stacked) did you miss???


I just tried to correct what seemed to be an error.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

No I just tried to give an idea, my print outs probably got thrown out last summer and have a new phone now so didn't have the PDF either.

But for reference cause this thread is insanely long now, here's a good place to get a variety of shims. It's where I get mine vs buying the entire manitou kit.

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/shim/shim.html

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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Tigris, Arnea- Thanks for the info and feedback. 
I do a lot of riding on climbs so I think I want to keep a bit of platform in order to be able to eliminate pedal-bobbing while climbing. The stock XC tune CV-11411-03 was definitely stiffer than I liked but I am pretty happy with XC tune CV-11411-04 achieved by adding a single 10mm OD x 0.25 thick preload reducer shim below the two stock 19mm platform shims. The preload reduction cuts the platform and force curve roughly in half from the original CV-11411-03 tune. I also like being able to keep the LSC adjuster closed or just cracked open a click or two in order to reduce brake dive compared to a tune where I would need to open the LSC further to keep it somewhat plush.

I did a bunch more reading and came to the realization that it would be fairly difficult project to write a simple spreadsheet that would somewhat accurately predict all the possible shim stacks. From the documentation, it does appear that the restackor program can be configured to handle the complex fluid dynamics and shim pre-load that are produced by the 0.6mm lip on top of the ABS+ port. Purchasing the restackor program to do the modeling would be a bargain compared to the time involved if someone actually needed that level of info.

As far as I got was to calculate the spring constants for the standard individual ABS+ shims. Even just doing this requires some fairly complex calculations. Individual shim stiffness is influenced variously by both the outside diameter and the inside (hole) diameter, by the height of the shim and by the ratio of the height to the OD. 
As you pointed out, increasing the shim thickness has a cubed effect on the individual shim thickness (thicker shims are stiff). What is not quite as intuitive is that for a fixed shim ID (8mm) and thickness, a reduction of the OD produces a stiffer individual shim. Rather than tackle the shim stiffness calculations myself, I found an engineering spreadsheet designed for calculating "Bellville spring" (dished disk springs). Bellville spring stiffness behave much differently if they are manufactured with excessive concave/convex dishing, but you can use the same equation to calculate stiffness of a flat shim by just setting the overall height of the dished spring a tiny bit more than the shim material thickness. The spreadsheet generates an error if you put the Bellville spring height exactly equal to the shim material, but it works fine if you enter a overall height of 0.21mm for a 0.20mm thickness shim. Spreadsheet I used was downloaded from; Excel Belleville Spring Calculator

I ran all the standard ABS+ shims and came up with the following spring rate constants (K) for shims all of 8mm ID;

OD (mm)_H(mm) K(N/mm)
19mm____0.2____ 27.6
19mm____0.15____11.6
19mm____0.1_____3.4
17.5mm__0.2_____33.5
17.5mm__0.15____14.2
17.5mm__0.1______4.2
17mm____0.2_____36.0
17mm____0.15____15.2
17mm____0.1______4.5
15mm____0.2_____49.8
15mm____0.15____21.0
15mm____0.1______6.2
13mm____0.2_____75.6
13mm____0.15____31.9
13mm____0.1 _____9.4

Comparison graph of the results looks like;








Admittedly none of this does much to directly predict the combine complex behavior of shims stacked together which are of different OD. A common MX shim stack configuration is to have a large OD shim on the bottom and stack against the valve port and gradually tapering springs stacked on top. The resulting tapered shim stack should have a combine stiffness that is a bit less than the combine individual shim stiffness because the large shim hangs out from beneath the smaller, stiffer shim above and so is only partially stiffened by those above. Still, just knowing the relative stiffness of individual shims should be helpful for selecting shims for an experimental stack..

Unfortunately, I dont see an obvious direct relationship between the calculated shim spring rates and the observed blow-off force needed to overcome the platform level of the XC tune stacks.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The platform shims have preload. That's what creates the platform. If you noticed when you were making changes, there is a raised lip that the platform shims rest on. When you tighten the assembly the shims are compressed into a dish shape. This removes the normal spring rate. Instead it requires a certain level of pressure before they "pop" open.

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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

As I understand spring physics, you should be able to multiply the spring rate constant (K) by the amount of pre-load deflection to determine the force needed to lift the shim off of the lip.
For a 19mmx0.2t shim pre-loaded 0.6 mm, the calculated force to lift the shim is thus 27.6 N/mm x 0.6mm = 16.6 N. 

If you look at the graphs for pre-loaded tunes CV-11411-03 (using two 19mm shims) and CV-11411-07 (using three19mm shims) and divide the blow-off platform force by the # of shims, this tells you that each of the pre-loaded 19mm shims contributes an average of 254 N of force to the platform so a bit over 1 order of magnitude difference from my calculated springs. You would also need to include in the calculation that the 11mmx 0.5T clamp shim above the pre-load shim would stiffen the 19mm shims to function more like a 19mm OD shim with a 11mm ID (instead of actual 8mm ID), the 11mm clamp should make the platform shims around 20% stiffer. 

All I can think is that perhaps somehow I miscalculated the spring-rate constants at 1/10 the actual rate, in which case the calculated force 165N x 120% = 200N would be a bit closer to the observed chart blow-off force of 254N per shim.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Dude, your making me think to much . I understand all that but my "mental capacity" prefers led lighting systems
My guess would be like I said, your over thinking it so probably made a very simple mathematical mistake is all. Recheck your calculations but keep it simple, one piece at a time. Especially if I understand you correctly and your off by a factor of 10. Simply forgot a 0 or accidently put a decimal in the wrong spot. IT HAPPENS, don't dwell on it.

And there is alot of other factors in how a fork will perform. So if your doing all this just to "analyze and understand" then awesome. You have more patience than me (but I do the same with LED bike lights and flashlights). If your doing this to determine best shim set up, your beating your head on a wall. Ambient temperature, air chamber pressure, riding position, bike geometry, and the list goes on will screw up what you think your accomplishing. Too many variables.

I'm hoping for the former (cuz you can) instead of the latter. Be nice to have another "analyst" dealing with manitou forks. Couple good guys here already, but except Mullen, their not around much. And I personally prefer the "try-ride-try something else-ride again" technique. DONT THINK, DRINK (well ride then drink )

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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

Analyzing the shim springs was definitively just a fun intellectual amusement, not an outright replacement for try-it-and-ride-it tuning. Understanding the relative individual shim spring rates however did help me with interpreting the manitou example shock dyno tuning charts and I think I would have an easier time with developing custom shim stacks.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

arnea said:


> . I ride cross country and use light linear stack with low speed needle almost closed - it has very good small bump sensitivity and good midstroke. I like to spin (no out of saddle sprints) and this stack fits me very well.


Could you describe the linear stack you are running. Your riding style sounds a lot like mine. Can you describe it starting from the clamp shim (what size ) and then going to the piston?

Thanks. I've been on Clamp | 15x0.15 | 17x0.2 |Piston and it has been ok.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I had the standard Trail stack (11x0.5 clamp, 2x19x0.2 preloaded shims and 17.5x0.2 speed shim). I removed both preloaded shims and added 17x0.1 shim on top of existing speed shim.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

What are you talking about, none of that has anything to do with what we are discussing??? Everyone modifying shim stacks has the manual and knows how to do the work so wondering why you posted that?

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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

munkitkat said:


> Did u change the oil in the damper? Did you check the oil level as shown in manitou manual? Did u compress forks several times with dampers set full open and then let sit so air trapped in the fluid can escape to the top of the damper?


Actually, I'm glad minkitkat posted this. It's a good reminder to me as sometimes I forget to do this or am not patient enough to follow the procedure correctly. I'm sure my oil level has been off because of this.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wanted to report back. Changing to prep m in the air chamber and going linear stack is amazing. I ran LSC 3 clicks open and no dive issues at all, Bob was unnoticed and small bump compliance was freaking amazing. 120mm seems to have brought the bike to life too. Smoother control leaning in the corners and much more stable coming down without killing response to steering inputs.

Like riding a much more fun and new bike lol. And the 30% sag is enough that I can still keep the weight forward on the climbs without issue

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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

So I am a newbie with Manitou forks. I previously owned an X-fusion Velvet in 2011 that was fairly easy to service, as I had installed Enduro fork seals no problem. I am now a proud owner of a new 120mm Mavel Pro 29er fork and not a clue, until now somewhat, how to go about opening it up and changing oil, seals or removing platform shims. I just went to the Manitou support online and opened up this service video:




My first question is - is this video relavent to my Marvel Pro in any way? I quickly noticed the Mattoc requires 3 specialty tools: flat ground 24mm socket, 8mm thin wall socket and a cassette tool. Any chance these are also needed on the Marvel?

I have also been told that I may want to loose the platform shims altogether in an effort to gain plushness and small bump compliance.... is this also true?

I think the right thing to do first is ride the snot out of this fork for 30-50 miles and then decide what needs to be done under the hood, yes? Great info here and enough to make my brain hurt, but thanks!


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

if it were me, like you said ride the piss outta it before opening it up. except mine took much more than 50 miles to break in.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

I dont think that the mattock video is particularly applicable to your marvel, the mattock is a more complex fork. You can get the ABS+ dampener out of your marvel for tuning in just a couple of minutes work just using normal hand-tools, see post #1 of this thread and start reading through the manitou tuning training manual; http://goo.gl/JaqWO


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Do NOT take out all the platform shims UNLESS you buy "speed shims" to tune with in their place. Removing the platform shims in the marvel means removing ALL high speed damping shims. 

Unless manitou changed it the stock abs shim stack is 2 platform shims and nothing more. Ya u need shims in there or you want have any damping.

Manitou has a service manual on their website. Marvel forks are INSANELY easy to work on with standard tools. But it's not something you should do without good reason. Many snap off the damper shaft not taking the forks apart properly 

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NH Mtbiker said:


> So I am a newbie with Manitou forks. I previously owned an X-fusion Velvet in 2011 that was fairly easy to service, as I had installed Enduro fork seals no problem. I am now a proud owner of a new 120mm Mavel Pro 29er fork and not a clue, until now somewhat, how to go about opening it up and changing oil, seals or removing platform shims. I just went to the Manitou support online and opened up this service video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The marvel is a lot easier to service than the Mattoc. No special tools.

Just remember the damper side (8mm hex) screws INTO the fork to remove it.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Manitou has service manual up in their site: http://www.manitoumtb.com/assets/Service Manuals/2012 Service Manual.pdf It's old, but contains all the information you need.

You can get shims from here: Revalving Shims You need 8mm ID shims. Get couple of 17mm OD shims with 0.1, 0.15 and 0.2mm thickness. Also you might want some thicker (e.g. 0.25mm) shims with 10mm OD if you decide you need some light platform. You can use those to reduce the preload of the platform shims.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

I have a Marvel pro. The exploded assembly drawing in the Manitou service manual shows a smaller diameter cartridge damper. What diameter compression shims do I need to alter the standard XC compression stack to something with less platform? It looks to me that the 19mm platform shims listed in the manitou tuning document might be too big.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sine waiver said:


> I have a Marvel pro. The exploded assembly drawing in the Manitou service manual shows a smaller diameter cartridge damper. What diameter compression shims do I need to alter the standard XC compression stack to something with less platform? It looks to me that the 19mm platform shims listed in the manitou tuning document might be too big.


The small diameter Marvel Pro ABS+ I've worked on had four shims. 2 spacer shims and 2 damping shims.
By moving the two spacer shims (one at a time) to between the piston and damper shims you reduce the preload and platform.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Thanks Dougal, So the standard shim configuration is 2 'platform' shims up against the lip on the piston, then the 2 spacers? Do you recall if moving one spacer to the other side of the 2 platform shims made a meaningful difference? ( I'm only running ~70psi and find the standard platform excessive). You don't recall the diameters of these by chance? I'm wondering if I need to buy a few various sized shims to fine tune.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sine waiver said:


> Thanks Dougal, So the standard shim configuration is 2 'platform' shims up against the lip on the piston, then the 2 spacers? Do you recall if moving one spacer to the other side of the 2 platform shims made a meaningful difference? ( I'm only running ~70psi and find the standard platform excessive). You don't recall the diameters of these by chance? I'm wondering if I need to buy a few various sized shims to fine tune.


I moved them both as the rider was apparently ~40kg. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to test ride the fork. But a major complaint was "can't get all the travel".

I would have to dig out the service sheet for the measurements of all the shims in that fork and what the final configuration was.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

SW-
my recent experience buying a new 2016 marvel comp was that it came setup with
stock XC tune CV-11411-03 consisting of 2x 19mm platform shims (and a thicker clamp shim on top) but there were not other smaller thin shims included in the stack that could be moved around to tune it. The platform and dampening curve were definitely stiffer than I liked. 
I changed to XC tune CV-11411-04 by adding a single 10mm OD x 0.25 thick preload reducer spacer below the two stock 19mm platform shims. The preload reduction cuts the platform and overall dampening force curve roughly in half from the original CV-11411-03 tune, much more to my tastes.
Because the 10mm preload reducer shim is smaller than the piston ports, it does not actually ever flex, it is just a "dumb" spacer between the platform shim and the piston. I just made my own reducer spacer from a thin aluminum washer instead of sourcing a stainless steel shim, (as is needed if the shim actually bends). I first started out with a 0.4mm thick preload reducer shim but it was too thick for my taste. It only left 0.2mm of the original 0.6mm of preload and so barely had any platform remaining. Difference between 0.4 mm preload spacer and a 0.25mm spacer was very significant. 
Do study the manitou shim stack graphs for better understanding of the stack tuning variables; http://goo.gl/JaqWO


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

The stack tuning seems pretty logical. Its just all the shim size information is in relation to the larger 'in leg' damper. I was hoping someone might know shim diameters for the smaller diameter cartridge ABS+ unit so I can buy a few shims before I take the thing apart. Scaling from a jpeg found online suggests the platform shims are d6mm x D15mm. I might just pull it out and measure.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

sine waiver said:


> I have a Marvel pro. The exploded assembly drawing in the Manitou service manual shows a smaller diameter cartridge damper. What diameter compression shims do I need to alter the standard XC compression stack to something with less platform? It looks to me that the 19mm platform shims listed in the manitou tuning document might be too big.


I was under impression that only rebound circuit is smaller diameter and compression damper is exactly same.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Item 3, page 27 of the 2012 Manitou service manual seems to show a smaller diameter compression piston.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

What model year do you have? If it is newer fork then the damper is different. Check out this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNRFRyNGJDdndyUUk/view?pref=2&pli=1


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have the 2015 and it's the same. The piston is different diameter. But the shims ARE THE SAME. 17mm od for speed shims, 19mm od for platform shims. The only difference is the cartridge damper piston is machined smaller on the outer area where the oring is seated. Same as with the rebound piston. Outer part of the piston where the Teflon seal is is machined further to reduce overall diameter.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sine waiver said:


> The stack tuning seems pretty logical. Its just all the shim size information is in relation to the larger 'in leg' damper. I was hoping someone might know shim diameters for the smaller diameter cartridge ABS+ unit so I can buy a few shims before I take the thing apart. Scaling from a jpeg found online suggests the platform shims are d6mm x D15mm. I might just pull it out and measure.


I've pulled my service sheet.

This cartridge ABS+ has 6mm ID shims.
2x 9mm OD preload shims
2x 14mm OD damping shims.

All approx 0.23mm thick (vernier measurements so +/- 0.02mm, I didn't use micrometers to check).

As this fork came to me it had one 9mm above and one 9mm below the 14mm shims.
I rearranged to both 9mm shims below to reduce preload.

The piston has a 0.6mm lip, so with both shims below it still has some preload.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh they did update and made the entire thing smaller. Figured mine was recent version but seems not. Nice because the big price difference for 50g lighter damper was a bit insane.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Oh they did update and made the entire thing smaller. Figured mine was recent version but seems not. Nice because the big price difference for 50g lighter damper was a bit insane.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


The weight of the damper is only a small part. There's something like 100cc less oil in the cartridge versions which is about 0.2 lb savings in oil alone.

It's generally only the pro models which get the smaller cartridge damper.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

arnea said:


> What model year do you have? If it is newer fork then the damper is different. Check out this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7grOSQ82keNRFRyNGJDdndyUUk/view?pref=2&pli=1


Ok, thanks for that. Is that assembly drawing for the latest (2016) model?
I bought it late 2015 from CRC, so assume it is 2015. I'll take the cartridge out this afternoon to measure it.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok, enough with the guess work. I removed the compression damper assembly (fantastically easy by the way). The piston seals directly in the inside diameter of the stanchion, no cartridge damper here (despite manitous spec saying so for the marvel pro). So as per tigris' experience the platform shims are 19mm. 
What soon became evident was the source of the excessive platform force. There was four 19 x 0.2 shims stacked. If you extrapolate that from the manitou's tuning info which shows damping characteristics for 2 and 3 19x0.2 shims you get a max platform of 1000N. Considering I only weigh 65kg (so maybe 25-35kg on the forks) no wonder they felt a bit harsh. Not sure how 4 shims ended up in the stack but I assume just assembly error?
Put it back in with 2 19x0.2 shims (what is supposedly the stock XC setup?), still ample platform to almost lock out at max setting but far more progressive in how the adjuster dials in the amount of platform. 
Now I can source some shims to fine tune.


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## ilikefire (May 15, 2008)

Speaking of updates.... I've got a Manitou Minute Comp 2015. I was told by the techs that the stock fluid in that fork is Maxima 5wt fork fluid. Which is lighter than the Motorex 5wt....

My issue is that I'm experiencing minimal/no change from full open to closed rebound. And I'm seeing brake dive on MAX LSC when travelling slowly but pulling hard on the brakes.

All of this leads me to believe the fork is under damped. So I'm thinking of switching to the Motorex 5wt. Thoughts? Do I have that right?

Notes: My weight = 160lbs, shim stack is stock trail stack.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

ilikefire - I have used different oils and the difference between closed vs open rebound has always been very noticeable. So I doubt that the problem is about oil viscosity.

How does your rebound feel - is it always fast or always slow? If it is always fast then perhaps something is wrong with rebound shims - like they are not closing completely.

Stupid question, but have you checked the oil level?

I would take the damper side open, clean it completely, make sure that rebound knob does its job and put it back together.

BTW I went with Silkolene RSF 2.5 oil that is even lighter than Maxima 5 (Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki). I had aeration problem with thicker oils (especially at lower temperatures) where fork got stiffer during the ride. With light oil the bubbles rise to the top faster and oil becomes normal faster.


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## ilikefire (May 15, 2008)

arnea said:


> ilikefire - I have used different oils and the difference between closed vs open rebound has always been very noticeable. So I doubt that the problem is about oil viscosity.
> 
> How does your rebound feel - is it always fast or always slow? If it is always fast then perhaps something is wrong with rebound shims - like they are not closing completely.
> 
> ...


Yes I find rebound too fast. I did pull the rebound damper out. Low speed rebound dial looked to be working fine. I didn't pull the rebound shims apart though. I'll have to make sure the check valve is properly covering the ports....

I still don't understand the brake dive issue though... Shouldn't max LSC eliminate brake dive?

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm thinking the same thing, shims are out of place. If your on MAX CLOSED (knob turned all the way back towards you) and you get brake dive something is not right. I'm 270lbs and the stock XC stack was still practically locked out at low speed.

BTW that's NOT an oil problem, the tiny difference between the 2 will not make a big difference like that.

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## ilikefire (May 15, 2008)

tigris99 said:


> I'm thinking the same thing, shims are out of place. If your on MAX CLOSED (knob turned all the way back towards you) and you get brake dive something is not right. I'm 270lbs and the stock XC stack was still practically locked out at low speed.
> 
> BTW that's NOT an oil problem, the tiny difference between the 2 will not make a big difference like that.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Yeah OK I think you're both onto something. I'm starting to think I've got two separate problems here.

1) I think my brake dive issue is because I didn't snug the nut on my abs+ damper enough. Found the piston and shims floating around in the fluid.

2) I think the rebound issue is a loose or damaged piston seal. Is it possible for the seal/o-ring to shrink? The piston does not feel tight against the stanchion. I'm thinking the fluid is going around the piston instead of through.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There's a teflon seal on the rebound piston, it's supposed to slide up and down easily, not fit tight. But if all you compression side parts were floating in there you need to test the forks down and check the rebound shims now. Make sure you didn't damage anything.

Other thing is in stock form rebound settings are hard to feel the difference. It's just fast and faster lol. But when I hit a batch of roots or similar at speed you'll notice the difference in performance. Just very subtle otherwise. And if your heavy like me, a change to its shim stack is needed too as high pressures in the spring overcome the stock rebound shims. So lack of decent rebound control.

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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Having though about this a little more, I suspect the 4 x 19x0.2 shims might be right to achieve the standard XC platform force in the marvel pro. It seems like the damping curves and shim configurations in the Manitou tuning document (2011) may relate to having a rebound piston running directly inside the stanchion.

tigris, what diameter is the rebound piston in your fork?
If it is smaller as per the assembly drawing shared by arnea then the pressure generated by the smaller diameter rebound piston for a given input force is probably close to twice that for a larger rebound piston. So to achieve a similar platform force as for an in leg rebound piston, the preload force on the platform shims would need to be doubled, hence the 4 19x0.2 platform shims.
This would also imply the velocity dependent damping force is half that shown in the Manitou tuning doc damping curves? (given the fact that the flow rate generated by the smaller rebound piston is half). I'm thinking I might add some 17mm shims to the valve face to increase the progression of damping force at higher velocities.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Didn't like the feel of the marvel pro 120 out of the box so decided to play with some shims.

First of all i thought the pro had a smaller diameter dampener inside a tube of the fork leg to save weight. Mine just has the standard size dampener.

The stack that came with the fork was a 4x 19mm x .2mm. No wonder why it did not have initial stroke smoothness.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The pro at least used to have a cartridge damper instead of the full leg full of fluid. Wasn't a big weight savings though, less than 100g iirc which is why I didn't bother paying the extra.

I don't know why manitou thinks the stock shim stack is a good stack for anything, it rides like a brick unless you have the LSC full or close to full open.

Surprised to see someone who spent the money on the full kit (that thing is expensive), probably have a lot more tuning options that way though!

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## croakies (Mar 4, 2011)

The full cartridge version was very finicky with oil level and prone to hydrolocking if not perfect. I think this is why they moved to a more traditional half cartridge setup which I prefer 

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I've had no issues with mine personally, first I've heard of the regular version having issues. May be possible that the design was updated to correct those issues. My oil level is never "perfect" just good enough (between 85 and 90) and no issues so far. 

I hated the stock stack, I don't even have a platform shim in anymore (went a small linear stack) and love it now. Run the LSC only a couple clicks open and love it now.

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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

tigris99 said:


> Surprised to see someone who spent the money on the full kit (that thing is expensive), probably have a lot more tuning options that way though!


I bought the full kit and fork for less than the price of a new Fox, so that made me happy. I've wanted to find the time to digest this thread, as I want to retune my Marvel from the stock shim stack. HSC seems to be too harsh as-delivered.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Bunch of us just order shims.

Fox forks are INSANELY priced lol. Plus manitou IMO does a better job of taking "Clyde level" riders into account for their designs and user tuneability. At my weight my forks work amazingly well compared to anything I've demoed (fox and rockshox) 

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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

So does anyone have any time on the newer Minute Pro at 140mm? I remember hearing some guys complain that the old Tower Pro was very noodly at 140mm for bigger guys when pushed hard. I am in need of a new fork and seriously debating on going with the Minute (as per Manitous recommendation) or going with the 27.5 Magnum Pro at 140 with a standard 29er tire/wheel setup. 

I am 180lbs outta the shower and ride pretty hard in the Tahoe area. Hence wanting to move up to the 34mm stanchion. Currently WAS running a 2011 Revy RL at 140. Not afraid to play with the shim stack and on of the Manitou techs I talked with said he could help me with a better trail tune for my size if I didn't like the initial tune. 


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok, so the 4 shims on the marvel pro must have been a design decision. It effectively allows a full lockout, which I guess might be desirable for some in an XC fork. I purchased a few shims and ended up with:
11x0.5 - support spacer
17x0.15 - platform
19x0.2 - platform
10x0.1 - spacer to reduce platform shims stack preload to 0.2mm
15x0.15 - speed
17x0.15 - speed
This gives a ~120N platform with LSC needle closed, which seems enough platform for seated pedaling for my 65kg. At 4-5 clicks from open the small bump sensitivity is still decent but it certainly doesn't wallow under normal pedaling. Doesn't bottom easily off small drops. I might try reducing the platform shim preload another 0.1mm at some stage.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

rupps5 said:


> Didn't like the feel of the marvel pro 120 out of the box so decided to play with some shims.
> The stack that came with the fork was a 4x 19mm x .2mm. No wonder why it did not have initial stroke smoothness.


Interesting that the stock tuning did not utilize a clamp shim as all of the example tunes from the 2011 manual included a clamp shim.

For a large diameter platform shim that is not backed by a clamp shim or a stack of decreasingly smaller shims, the location for the flexing of the large diameter shim gets concentrated toward the inside diameter of the shim. At least with the forces encountered in motorcycle shocks, there is a concern that metal fatigue from concentrated flexing of the shims will eventually cause the shim to crack. A clap shim helps to both stiffen the platform shim and to move the location for the flexing outward 
and and distribute the stress over a wider area.

Perhaps the forces for MTB shocks are not high enough to cause fatigue of the unclamped platform shim? I wonder what (if any) benefit or tuning characteristics are derived from not including a clamp?


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

The marvel pro I have, had an 11x0.5 clamp/support shim on top of the 4 x 19x0.2mm platform shims.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Yep mine in the picture did not have a clamp shim, just the 4x 19x.2


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's differebt because I don't even think mine had 4 platform shims new, 2x 0.2 and clamp shim iirc

Last I thought (I'll have to look it up) 4x 0.2 is the jump stack.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi everyone. I've been watching this thread for a while, as I have a 2012 Marvel Pro that I intended on tuning. I used to tune car shocks for a living, so when I saw that this thing was tunable, I jumped at it.

I've had the fork for nearly three years now, and I'm *finally* getting around to tuning it. When I bought the fork, I also bought the official Manitou tuning kit.

Tonight I pulled the damper out, and what the... I don't have anything like what I've seen in this thread, and it appears that just about everything in the tuning kit is for something else. I've attached a better photo than any I could take of mine - credit for the photo goes to Chain Reaction Cycles, which is where I got all the parts.

I'm going to check the shims that came with this fork (there appears to be just one shim to the naked eye, but we'll see) to see where I'm starting. Has anyone else opened up this fork and worked on this particular piston and damper? I totally didn't expect this. I admit I haven't read all 23+ pages in this thread, but what I have read didn't show anything like my damper.

Thanks for any insight or tuning tips you might have for this one. I was going to just add a shim to reduce the preload on the stack (I believe it was going from XC code that ends with 03 to the one that ends with 04 in the tuning guide), but now I'll have to come up with a new plan.

Cheers!


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CTB said:


> Hi everyone. I've been watching this thread for a while, as I have a 2012 Marvel Pro that I intended on tuning. I used to tune car shocks for a living, so when I saw that this thing was tunable, I jumped at it.
> 
> I've had the fork for nearly three years now, and I'm *finally* getting around to tuning it. When I bought the fork, I also bought the official Manitou tuning kit.
> 
> ...


You have the cartridge version of the damper. It's the same thing, but uses 6mm ID shims instead of 8mm because of the smaller damper cartridge. Not sure what comes in the tuning kit, it may not be compatible.


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks, mullen. Yep, there is NOTHING in the kit that is compatible with the possible exception of the check valve shim. Which, of course, doesn't really matter.

Below is a picture of the disc stack that came with this fork. I measured them as follows, starting from the left to the right:

9 x 6 x 0.25
14 x 6 x 0.21
14 x 6 x 0.21
9 x 6 x 0.25

I didn't measure the check valve shim. Those 0.21's might be 0.2's; can't vouch for sure for that kind of accuracy.

Time to surf this thread to find where I can buy 6mm shims. Pretty sure I saw recommendations in there somewhere. I was thinking now that I could have put the two 9mm on the same side of the stack to reduce the preload, but then 1) that might be too drastic of a change, and 2) I suspect the 9mm farthest from the piston is being used as a fulcrum disc to control the deflection of the 14mm discs. Taking that away would probably made a lot more change than I was going for.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CTB said:


> Thanks, mullen. Yep, there is NOTHING in the kit that is compatible with the possible exception of the check valve shim. Which, of course, doesn't really matter.
> 
> Below is a picture of the disc stack that came with this fork. I measured them as follows, starting from the left to the right:
> 
> ...


Send me a pm, I think I have some 6mm ID shims and nothing that uses them. I can go through them and send them to you. I just need to see what I have in 9-14mm OD sizes.


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

CTB- 
6mm ID shims can be had from;
Revalving Shims

I played with various thickness of preload reducer shims, even a 0.05mm difference caused a noticeable change to the platform force. Shifting both of your 9mm OD shims below the platform shim would likely remove most all the preload and leave no available platform. On the large diameter ABS+ stacks, the piston has a 0.6mm lip that the platform shims preload against, not sure if the preload piston lip height is same for the smaller cartridge stack.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

That's the older cartridge damper for minimal oil volume and weight. The newer forks are using a smaller diameter rebound piston but normal diameter compression.

What are your main goals?


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

GrayJay said:


> On the large diameter ABS+ stacks, the piston has a 0.6mm lip that the platform shims preload against, not sure if the preload piston lip height is same for the smaller cartridge stack.


Oh man, I completely forgot to measure the depth of the land on the piston. I was going to do that but it went right out of my brain. I'm quite sure it is a smaller lip than the large piston, but "quite sure" isn't very accurate. I'll measure it once I have some shims and do some tuning.

Dougal, right now I run the fork wide open. I'd like less HSC than I have now and to perhaps shift the range so that I can run the fork more in the middle of the clicks so that I have at least some adjustability both ways.


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

Another thought: this link
Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike
shows what looks like my fork on the outside, but then shows the in-leg version of the ABS+ damper. Since I already have the tuning kit with all kinds of shims and pistons, is there any reason (other than the few grams of weight that I don't care about) that I wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't change my fork over to the bigger piston system (non-cartridge ABS+)? I'd need the rebound assembly as well, but I don't know that they would fit into my 2012 model.

Edit:
It looks like I would have been better off getting the Expert model instead of the Pro model. The Expert appears to have everything needed to use my tuning kit. I bought the Pro because I thought it was exactly the opposite. I'm going over the parts schematics now, but it looks like I just could use Expert guts and be good to go. Ain't that a kick in the head.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

CTB said:


> Another thought: this link
> Manitou's Marvel Pro and Real Custom Tuning - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike
> shows what looks like my fork on the outside, but then shows the in-leg version of the ABS+ damper. Since I already have the tuning kit with all kinds of shims and pistons, is there any reason (other than the few grams of weight that I don't care about) that I wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't change my fork over to the bigger piston system (non-cartridge ABS+)? I'd need the rebound assembly as well, but I don't know that they would fit into my 2012 model.
> 
> ...


That would depend if your stanchions are taper wall inside or not. If they are then you'd need the cartridge rebound shaft of the new type. This will give you a small daimeter rebound piston but full diameter compression piston.

I need to order some of these parts myself so I can verify fitment.


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

Based on the 2012 service manual that Manitou has online (and mine is a 2012), the Pro and Expert share stanchion/crown assy's.

Common parts:
Crown assy: 141-28131-K010
Knob kit (rebound): 141-28131-K017
Outer Casting (sliders): 141-27988-K019

The parts above are for a white 120mm QR15 tapered Marvel.

Non-shared parts:
ABS+ damper (Expert): 141-28532-K101
ABS+ Cartridge damper (Pro): 141-26532-K009
Rebound damper (Expert): 141-28131-K018
Cartridge Rebound (Pro): 83-3282 (?)
Cartridge tube for 120mm tapered stanchions (Pro): 141-28131-K002 

It appears that the Expert parts can go into the Pro stanchions based on this. 

Mullen is very kindly sending me some shims, so I'll at least be able to tune what I have a bit and see what I find. (Thanks!)


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

What ptfe are you guys using on the legs?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I must say that I didn't get the question. If it was about the assembly lube then I'm using Rock'n'Roll Superslick on various seals. It works fine. Now I got Slickoleum and will try to see how it works.


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

So to follow up with my post above:
My goal was to reduce the overall amount of compression damping so that I could be at least a couple clicks into the middle of the adjustment range on the Marvel.

First I tried by simply removing one of the 14's from the disc stack.

9 x 6 x 0.25
14 x 6 x 0.21 <-- removed
14 x 6 x 0.21
9 x 6 x 0.25

That was comically plush and made the front end feel like a gumdrop in the sun. It absorbed everything, but the bike was dead as heck. You couldn't pop the front end up for anything. I finished that ride with the compression adjuster one click away from lockout, just to make it feel barely acceptable. 

So happily one of the discs that Mullen sent me split the difference nicely. I believe it was a 14 x 6 x 0.10, so I added that in. 

Now we're talking. After a lot of rides on it, I'm on the 2nd or 3rd click from wide open on the compression adjuster now, and the ride quality is excellent without being dead. I'm very happy with this. Mullen, thanks again for the discs!

9 x 6 x 0.25
14 x 6 x 0.21
14 x 6 x 0.10
9 x 6 x 0.25


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## Björnsitsen (Oct 8, 2016)

I have a problem with my minute comp 140. Fork is new and worked before i started tuning.... pulled out damper unit and removed one shim from my trail stack. Put damper unit back and now The abs+ lever dont work. No lockout or increased compression. 

Put The shim back again and check oil level. Cant find anything wrong. 

Have taken it out 20 times now but cant find anything wrong. Now when i push hard on the fork it locks out after some cm. If I push slowly on the fork i cant feel any lockout or change in compression. Tried 85-90mm in oil level.

What is wrong? 

Best regards


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Björnsitsen said:


> I have a problem with my minute comp 140. Fork is new and worked before i started tuning.... pulled out damper unit and removed one shim from my trail stack. Put damper unit back and now The abs+ lever dont work. No lockout or increased compression.
> 
> Put The shim back again and check oil level. Cant find anything wrong.
> 
> ...


It's likely a shim isn't centred or is damaged, letting oil bypass. You'll have to take it apart, spread it all out carefully and check all the pieces.


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## Björnsitsen (Oct 8, 2016)

Could it be the thin shim that lets oil flow back after compression? The one that has a small coil. Not shim stack. That one has a smal damage.

Thanks for quick reply!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Björnsitsen said:


> Could it be the thin shim that lets oil flow back after compression? The one that has a small coil. Not shim stack. That one has a smal damage.
> 
> Thanks for quick reply!


That'll do it. It'll bypass oil on compression and rebound if it doesn't seal.


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## Björnsitsen (Oct 8, 2016)

Great! I try that tomorrow. Any idea where to get a new one or is it possible to get it straight igain?


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## Björnsitsen (Oct 8, 2016)

Problem solved! Straighten the shim a little and put it back and now it works! Thanx for the help! 

I think the fork is a little to progressive. Can i change coil on a ts air? Or does it help with a more linear stack?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Björnsitsen said:


> Problem solved! Straighten the shim a little and put it back and now it works! Thanx for the help!
> 
> I think the fork is a little to progressive. Can i change coil on a ts air? Or does it help with a more linear stack?


Yes you can swap TS Air for the ACT coil. I'm not aware of any different rate negative springs for the TS Air though.

I've never ridden a TS Air fork properly. My own Manitou forks are MARS, coil or Dorado Air.


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## Björnsitsen (Oct 8, 2016)

Ok! So shim stack has nothing to do with progressive fork at all? Did i understand correct that i can buy only the coil from an act air fork and put it on my ts air? 

I weight 80 kg geared up and have 60 psi at the moment. Only 10h on the fork so far so maybe it loses up little more with more hours.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

*Newbie with a Marvel Pro*



tigris99 said:


> I have the 2015 and it's the same. The piston is different diameter. But the shims ARE THE SAME. 17mm od for speed shims, 19mm od for platform shims. The only difference is the cartridge damper piston is machined smaller on the outer area where the oring is seated. Same as with the rebound piston. Outer part of the piston where the Teflon seal is is machined further to reduce overall diameter.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


So I have a 2016 Marvel pro (bought from Chain reaction in Jan 2016), I can confirm as above, the shims are 8x19mm. I'm guessing the earlier marvels must have had the smaller diameter.

So anyway my situation is, after reading this forum, I had bought the Marvel Pro to put on my hard tail, which is essentially a commuter and occasional have a play on easy XC trails. Truth be told I have probably done about 50km off road and 500km on road. In that time I felt it was a good fork, 3 or 4 clicks back felt good for "road bumps" compliance, and max definitely locked it out.

Anyway my main bike is a 2013 Rocky mountain element, which I am really happy with except the Fox CTD has always felt ordinary. Well the fox fork finally packed it in so I (re)read this forum to get some ideas and confirm my decision to add the Marvel Pro to the Rocky.

So Last night I opened it up to check the Shims situation (i've been a dirtbiker for years and never touched the things, but get the gist of them) Anyway the factory setup on my forks:
4 x 19mm platform shims and it had 72mm oil height







I dont have any spare shims yet, so all I could do was remove some shims. First up I took 2 platform shims out, so that it had the standard XC stack, when I put it back together I made the mistake of bouncing forks up and down on ground (since not installed on bike yet) and I thought it was not stiff enough to act as a lock out on Max, so put 1 shim back in, which makes it the same as CV-11411-07.

So I left the oil height at 72mm as well (even though this is more than specs say). I set sag at 25%, which was about 70psi.

Anyway I took it for a ride this morning on classical XC single track, pretty smooth, just a few small roots and rocks, a couple of 1ft jumps and drops.
My findings were: 
1. full open on dial was still too stiff for small roots and rocks.
2. I used about 70% travel, So I think sag/pressure is about right, or maybe a little too high.
3. in general damp comp damping was just too stiff
4. rebound maxed to + and still felt like it needed more (maybe side affect of compression being too harsh
5. too stiff to notice brake dive
6. i think I will do the standard mod of dropping back to only 1 platform shim.

Anyone have a comment about oil height? will that add to general stiffness?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

minisman said:


> So I have a 2016 Marvel pro (bought from Chain reaction in Jan 2016), I can confirm as above, the shims are 8x19mm. I'm guessing the earlier marvels must have had the smaller diameter.
> 
> So anyway my situation is, after reading this forum, I had bought the Marvel Pro to put on my hard tail, which is essentially a commuter and occasional have a play on easy XC trails. Truth be told I have probably done about 50km off road and 500km on road. In that time I felt it was a good fork, 3 or 4 clicks back felt good for "road bumps" compliance, and max definitely locked it out.
> 
> ...


Unless you need a firm platform, don't tune that way. It makes for overly harsh square edge impacts unless the dial compression is full open or very close to it. Order shims and try a trail stack or better yet (if you don't want any lockout), a linear stack. This allows you to have the lsc adjuster close to closed for low speed support, but still blowoff for square edged hits. I believe my favorite stack was a 17x.2 shim for support and to reduce preload, followed by a 19x.1 that allowed the lsc adjuster to have a definitive effect and support slower shaft speeds. Before blowing off.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> Unless you need a firm platform, don't tune that way. It makes for overly harsh square edge impacts unless the dial compression is full open or very close to it. Order shims and try a trail stack or better yet (if you don't want any lockout), a linear stack. This allows you to have the lsc adjuster close to closed for low speed support, but still blowoff for square edged hits. I believe my favorite stack was a 17x.2 shim for support and to reduce preload, followed by a 19x.1 that allowed the lsc adjuster to have a definitive effect and support slower shaft speeds. Before blowing off.


This bike is for XC racing as well, so I do want a decent platform, but NOT this harsh!

For now I am stuck with no spare shims, all I have is the 4x platform shims. So I guess I am asking is removing all except for 1 going to be ok for a bit of platform and much softer than now?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

minisman said:


> This bike is for XC racing as well, so I do want a decent platform, but NOT this harsh!
> 
> For now I am stuck with no spare shims, all I have is the 4x platform shims. So I guess I am asking is removing all except for 1 going to be ok for a bit of platform and much softer than now?


No issues with running just one. Only way to know if it's firm enough is to try it. After you do a few changes, you will get fast enough that you can do it in 15 minutes, so changing will be fast and easy to try new things.

Keep in mind the thickness of the shims is very important, not just the diameter. Make sure you know the thickness of the shims you are using.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

minisman said:


> So I have a 2016 Marvel pro (bought from Chain reaction in Jan 2016), I can confirm as above, the shims are 8x19mm. I'm guessing the earlier marvels must have had the smaller diameter.
> 
> So anyway my situation is, after reading this forum, I had bought the Marvel Pro to put on my hard tail, which is essentially a commuter and occasional have a play on easy XC trails. Truth be told I have probably done about 50km off road and 500km on road. In that time I felt it was a good fork, 3 or 4 clicks back felt good for "road bumps" compliance, and max definitely locked it out.
> 
> ...


I am pretty light at ~67kg and found the compression damping to be excessive (mine had the 4, 19 x 0.2 shim stack). After trying numerous combinations I ended up running 2.5wt fork oil with a 17x0.15 speed shim, a 11x0.1 spacer shim (to reduce platform shim preload) and a single 19x0.2 platform shim. The platform threshold with the needle closed is around 145N (14kg) which is ample for seated climbing. I have been running it 2-3 clicks from closed for climbing and descending and it works well. running 70psi in the spring and recommended damper oil height (87mm?)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

sine waiver said:


> I am pretty light at ~67kg and found the compression damping to be excessive (mine had the 4, 19 x 0.2 shim stack). After trying numerous combinations I ended up running 2.5wt fork oil with a 17x0.15 speed shim, a 11x0.1 spacer shim (to reduce platform shim preload) and a single 19x0.2 platform shim. The platform threshold with the needle closed is around 145N (14kg) which is ample for seated climbing. I have been running it 2-3 clicks from closed for climbing and descending and it works well. running 70psi in the spring and recommended damper oil height (87mm?)


Which brand of oil were you running? The factory Maxima 85-150 is labelled 5wt but matches other brands 2.5wt.
Anything 14-16 cSt @40C is essentially stock. There is no benefit to going thicker on a damper like this that can be easily revalved. A few brands make thinner, but that's getting into diminishing returns.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> No issues with running just one. Only way to know if it's firm enough is to try it. After you do a few changes, you will get fast enough that you can do it in 15 minutes, so changing will be fast and easy to try new things.
> 
> Keep in mind the thickness of the shims is very important, not just the diameter. Make sure you know the thickness of the shims you are using.


My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.

Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

minisman said:


> My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.
> 
> Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
> I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?


Hard to say. A single .2mm thick shim has the same relative stiffness as 8 shims .1mm thick. A 1.5mm thick is the equivalent of.a little over 3 shims .1mm thick.

This means the stock 2 shim stack you refer to uses .2mm shims has a relative stiffness of 16 (8 x 2)

If your 4 shims are .15mm thick instead of .2mm, then your stock stack would have an overall thickness of 12 which is less stiff overall than the old XC stack.

Without knowing your shims thickness for sure, I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that Manitou did adress the overly stiff stack, just not quite enough. They also don't want to lose the firm lockout out on the XC forks. It's what some people want.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Dougal said:


> Which brand of oil were you running? The factory Maxima 85-150 is labelled 5wt but matches other brands 2.5wt.
> Anything 14-16 cSt @40C is essentially stock. There is no benefit to going thicker on a damper like this that can be easily revalved. A few brands make thinner, but that's getting into diminishing returns.


I went with motorex 2.5 race oil, firstly because I could get locally easily but it also has a higher VI than the maxima. So over the recent winter (when I was trying different setups) here, where temperatures are going to average <10C, the maxima is 62cst and the motorex 2.5 is 42cst , the motorex gives a noticable decrease in damping (though not so much the threshold force, since that is largely governed by the platform shim stiffness-which is good since you can decouple the threshold from the velocity damping to some extent by changing the oil viscosity).
I guess in summer, say 30-40C, the standard maxima and 2.5 motorex are probably close enough to be indistinguishable.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

minisman said:


> My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.
> 
> Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
> I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?


Lockout, which is effectively what the 4x 19x0.2 shims provides with the needle closed, is likely to be seen by Manitou marketing as a necessary feature for xc forks. So they tell engineering to make it happen?


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

mullen119 said:


> Hard to say. A single .2mm thick shim has the same relative stiffness as 8 shims .1mm thick. A 1.5mm thick is the equivalent of.a little over 3 shims .1mm thick.
> 
> This means the stock 2 shim stack you refer to uses .2mm shims has a relative stiffness of 16 (8 x 2)
> 
> ...


Mullens, 
I still need to buy a new set of higher quality digital verniers to confirm. But I my gut feeling is you are correct and that manitou may have switched to 4x .15mm.

The reason I say this, is becuase I did some more testing, I removed a 2nd shim, so now i have 2x platfrom shims (of what ever thickness they are). I took it for a very hard rocky/ rooty/ climby ride. It felt great(but not really any different to 3 shims in the open 5 most open ABS+ settings), but the abs+ knob had no affect and no lockout any more, so it was definitly under valved.

So I will add the 3rd shim back, as I liked that and i still had a proper platform.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

minisman said:


> Mullens,
> I still need to buy a new set of higher quality digital verniers to confirm. But I my gut feeling is you are correct and that manitou may have switched to 4x .15mm.
> 
> The reason I say this, is becuase I did some more testing, I removed a 2nd shim, so now i have 2x platfrom shims (of what ever thickness they are). I took it for a very hard rocky/ rooty/ climby ride. It felt great(but not really any different to 3 shims in the open 5 most open ABS+ settings), but the abs+ knob had no affect and no lockout any more, so it was definitly under valved.
> ...


When did you buy the forks? My 2015 model definitely had 4 x 19 x0.2


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

sine waiver said:


> When did you buy the forks? My 2015 model definitely had 4 x 19 x0.2


Only a few months ago. It was advertised at 2016 model.
So with yours what have you done? Do you still get lockout? Or close to it?


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

minisman said:


> Only a few months ago. It was advertised at 2016 model.
> So with yours what have you done? Do you still get lockout? Or close to it?


I have ended up with 17x0.15, 11x0.1 x 19x0.2
No lockout anymore, just ~14kg threshold ( which is ample to stop any bob during seated pedalling). but in my view, you can't achieve a good shim stack tune and still have a lockout with the abs+ damper. There is a reason Fox use a multi circuit compression circuit in the fit 4, to allow a well tuned shim stack for general riding as well as a lockout.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

Thats interesting you say that, because in my opinion Fox compression damping is useless and feels dead, but then again the latest model fox stuff i have is 2013 evo CTD... reknowned as rubbish.
I personally feel that the piston porting in the minute pro with all combos of shims i have tried is better than the Fox forks I have owned.

Also I switched my shims back to 3 x19mm, and I tried my rusty old verniers on them again. they are definitly more than .1mm and less than .2mm thick. and I measured all 3 stacked together to be a bit over .4mm so I am thinking they are .15mm.

So as mullens said the old XC stack of 2x .2mm thick had a stiffness of .16, and the recommendation was to go back to 1 shim and being a stiffeness on 8. My original stack of 4x .15mm had a stiffness of 13.5 ( less than old XC stack) going to 2 x .15mm was too soft, it was stiffness of 6. so 3x .15mm is a stiffness of about 10.

3 shims will have to do until i buy some more shims of other diameters. I rode it yesterday arvo with 3 and its not too bad, but could improve a bit.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

Well guys,
After a month or so of riding my Rocky with the Marvel pros 'borrowed' from my hard tail, and Fox not being very useful with repairing my other forks I have bought another set of Marvel pros  
In the meantime I bought digital calipers and about $30 worth of shims from a motorbike suspension shop, however they didn't sell 17.5 OD, i had to buy 17mm OD shims( I wonder how much that will affect it??).
So last night, I popped open the brand new and unused Marvel pro, measured everything up and set a shim stack to test. I can confirm that with both 2016 Marvel pros the standard shim stack is 11*0.50 clamp, 4x 19*0.20 platform. (NOT 19x0.15 like i had guessed)
On my other fork I was reasonably happy with running 11*0.50, 3x 19*0.20 (CV-11411-07) at about 3 clicks from Max, however I felt I wanted something with a little less platform and a little bit more linear. I actually considered the Jump stack, but I wanted that little bit more platform for XC, as I said before 2x 19*0.20 was not enough platform for me.
So after looking at the graph at top of page 12 of the tuning manual seeing the difference between adding a 17.5*0.15 and 17.5*0.20 I decided I'd put a 17*0.15 next to piston.
So my stack ended up being 11*0.50, 3x 19*0.20, 17*.15.
I am going to hit up my local XC track this afternoon for about an hour or 2. I know the fork will need bedding in. (It has that horrible topping out thud that happened on my other fork, which tricked me into running too much rebound)
I can't wait!!!!

Also I would love to increase travel to 110 or 120mm, but I dont feel like stripping it and loosing all that brand new unused oil just yet.

I forgot, for the record I got the kitchen scales out and checked some weights. 
The old 2013 Fox Float CTD 29er 100mm with 15mm axle installed and tapered steerer cut to 195mm weighed 1710g
The New 2016 Marvel pro 29er 100mm with 15mm axle installed, tapered steerer uncut, 1780g, and cut to 188mm 1752g.

So very minor weight penalty over the fox... and website spec sheets are wrong (as usual)


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

So a bit of an update on my marvel pro, I have done quite a bit of testing... probably not consistent with my methods, and terrible with my record keeping but here is a bit of a run down.

So before buying shims my best set up was: 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2 70psi - good platform, still had LO, railed corners, sat too low in stroke unless add more air, then lost small bump. 
tried 10.5x0.5, 17x0.2, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 - better mid support, platform lacking, still had LO
tried 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.2 - no lockout, didn't even ride it
tried 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 -platform good, a little lacking, good for majority of stroke, needed a little more big hit resistence.
tried (jump stack with thinner velocity shim)
10.5x0.5, 17x0.15 4x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 - better support whole way, but a bit dead/ wooden feeling, and had to drop psi- classic overdamped undersprung)

So its obvious I like a lot of platform shims, but I also want them to fully blow off before speed shims come into play... So I am thinking i need a 2 stage stack. but everyone that tried that has said they ended up with going for a straight linear stack... which doesn't sound like my sort of thing at all!

Other wise I think my best bet is 3x platforms, 1x .15 speed shim and then playing with the spring side a little to get me higher in stroke.... Either adding some grease/oil to reduce volume, or going to 120mm travel so its sitting at the right height in the midstroke and reduces bottoming.

Any hints on air spring mods? also how far do I have to go stripping the fork to change travel spacers?


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## Mikros (May 24, 2016)

Hi guys,

Just finished playing with my 2016 Marvel Pro. I bought it as 100mm for my Epic to replace SID with Brain. I recently bought another bike (BH Lynx) that has 120mm Fox Float CTD 32 fitted. I believe that when I tune the damper on Marvel I will end up with better and lighter fork. Conversion to 120mm was straightforward, then I removed the damper to check which variant is fitted. 

As expected, it was XC tuned with stack of 4 shims 19 (OD) x 8 (ID). No idea about thickness of the shims (battery in my calipers gone dead...). Anyway, once I get different shims I'l go with trail or linear tune. 

One thing I could not figure out is how to fit the damper back in. It will slide in just about half way, then it just will not budge. I didn't want to apply brutal force and decided to ask here. Is there some sort of trick? Keep wiggling from side to side and pushing down? 

Any reply would be much appreciated.

Cheers.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

Mikros said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just finished playing with my 2016 Marvel Pro. I bought it as 100mm for my Epic to replace SID with Brain. I recently bought another bike (BH Lynx) that has 120mm Fox Float CTD 32 fitted. I believe that when I tune the damper on Marvel I will end up with better and lighter fork. Conversion to 120mm was straightforward, then I removed the damper to check which variant is fitted.
> 
> ...


Make sure the compression damper adjuster is in the open position, in the closed position with the STD shims it takes a lot to force oil past the preloaded stack. Might be the problem.??


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## Mikros (May 24, 2016)

Let me check after work - I'm sure I turned the adjuster to one of the stop positions,

but it is quite possible I've locked it fully rather than opened it. 

Thanks for a hint, should've thought about it rather than swearing like a sailor.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

sine waiver said:


> Make sure the compression damper adjuster is in the open position, in the closed position with the STD shims it takes a lot to force oil past the preloaded stack. Might be the problem.??


Yep turn it all the way forwards or anti clockwise.
Also do yourself a big favour and take either 1 or 2 of the 19mm shims out. I have fiddled around a lot and I still like 3x19mm shims, and 2 clicks from lockout


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## Mikros (May 24, 2016)

minisman said:


> Yep turn it all the way forwards or anti clockwise.
> Also do yourself a big favour and take either 1 or 2 of the 19mm shims out. I have fiddled around a lot and I still like 3x19mm shims, and 2 clicks from lockout


Mystery solved, I've had a brainfart - thinking of opening the damper, I turned it fully clocwise to locked. Every fork I've ever touched opens up anticlockwise even RS SID which has a rebound dial on top of right leg (fast rebound anticlockwise). Oh well...

I plan to remove 2 platform shims first and see how it feels, then try with 3 shims. I really wanted to add 17.5/0.2 speed shim to either 1 or 2 platforms, but I'm having enormous difficulties to find it anywhere in Oz. Manitou tuning kit disappeared from market as well. May end up ordering set of 17.5mm from US (there's a link somewhere here), but it is not the cheapest option.

What I'm after most of all, is small bump/trail chatter compliance to ease the pain from my seriously injured shoulder which haunts me from my dirt bike days. Pedal bob is not much of a concern but brake dive is not much fun. I'd like to find some compromise.

At the moment the my Fox CTD is mostly set in downhill mode even for general trail ridig, so there is my bias towards a linear mode rather than strong platform. Its not bad, but I really hope I can better it with Marvel. If I only had the shims to play with that is. :-(

Thank you guys for your prompt replies. Much appreciated.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

This is the shim stack that i have liked the best for xc racing










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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

Mikros,
With regards to buying shims in OZ, I bought mine from Tecnik Motorsports online, however had to buy bags of 10. They only had 17mm ,not 17.5mm, somone else said the difference is barely noticeable, so thats what I went with. Ended up buying about $30 worth in the end.

So on that note, I have spare 17x 0.2 and 17x 0.15 and I also bought some 10 x.25 to try to use as clamp shims... but havent tried it yet.

If you like I can send you 2 or 3 of each $5 plus postage??? PM me your postage details if you are keen?


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

rupps5 said:


> This is the shim stack that i have liked the best for xc racing


Thats a massive stack... can you identify what it is actually doing?? and explain it to me?


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## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

minisman said:


> Thats a massive stack... can you identify what it is actually doing?? and explain it to me?


My guess- for low-speed hits it starts by behaving similar to a no platform, low-dampening force linear stack with just the bottom 2x 17.5mm shims providing all the initial dampening. When it gets a larger hit, the two big bottom shims lift and around past the 10mm shim and contact the upper "christmass tree" stack which kicks in to provide a sharp ramp-up in dampening force that progressively increases once you begin putting force on the smaller diameter 15mm and 13mm shims at the top of the tree.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Can I get a recommendation for tuning my 27.5 Marvel Pro 120mm for dealing with roots? I seem to be deflecting off them rather than sucking them up. My current shim stack is pretty light linear tune but maybe I had too much air this day? I want to try again from scratch and need a good starting point.

Weight 140lbs
Terrain - aggressive XC primitive trails 
120mm Marvel Pro on Ti hard tail 27.5
2.5 wt fork oil
Fox Gold semi bath

Current shim stack:
Clamp | 15x0.15 |17x0.15 | Piston
LSC closed or 1 click open
sag about 25% 65psi
top of air spring packed with Slickoleum, no oil on it as it blows by the seals quickly

Something just isn't right. It feels supple and moves on climbs, but then was deflecting off the roots, so counter to what I'd think. I have been setting rebound on the fast side thinking that is what is needed for roots but it has also felt bouncy. 

I saw this recipe in a previous post and am going to try it out: "2.5wt fork oil with a 17x0.15 speed shim, a 11x0.1 spacer shim (to reduce platform shim preload) and a single 19x0.2 platform shim."

For this is the correct order:
Clamp | 19mm platform | 11mm spacer | 17mm speed shim | Piston


Anyway any suggestions appreciated.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually your shim stack is set rather soft but you may want to switch the 15 for a 13. Also open up your LSC a bit more.

Also since you've worked on your forms obviously did you pump your forks up before installing the rods into the lowers? If you did that's another issue. Forks should be mostly/fully compressed before installing air piston rod bolt or threading the damper rod in.

Also check your tire pressure, solid chance your running too high if your badly deflecting.

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Forks should be mostly/fully compressed before installing air piston rod bolt or threading the damper rod in.


No they shouldn't.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ashwinearl said:


> Can I get a recommendation for tuning my 27.5 Marvel Pro 120mm for dealing with roots? I seem to be deflecting off them rather than sucking them up. My current shim stack is pretty light linear tune but maybe I had too much air this day? I want to try again from scratch and need a good starting point.
> 
> Weight 140lbs
> Terrain - aggressive XC primitive trails
> ...


What's your air pressure? That's a very soft shim stack you're running already. It's likely not the damper.

How many CC of grease have you got in the air-spring? It's not too progressive?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> Can I get a recommendation for tuning my 27.5 Marvel Pro 120mm for dealing with roots? I seem to be deflecting off them rather than sucking them up. My current shim stack is pretty light linear tune but maybe I had too much air this day? I want to try again from scratch and need a good starting point.
> 
> Weight 140lbs
> Terrain - aggressive XC primitive trails
> ...


Sounds like you are too fast on rebound to me. Slow it down and see if it helps


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Ashwinearl

I bet that the shim stack is too light. That is why you have closed your low-speed compression. If you open up your lowest speed compression do you just blow through the travel?

What does the fork feel like when you're about four clicks from open on low speed compression?

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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

mullen119 said:


> Sounds like you are too fast on rebound to me. Slow it down and see if it helps


I agree. If you're popping up off roots, you need some rebound in it. It's sometimes hard to separate too much compression, where the bike simply jumps up upon impact with the root (often harshly), vs. too little rebound where the fork absorbs the root but then pops up too quickly as the fork extends *after* the root.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

CTB said:


> I agree. If you're popping up off roots, you need some rebound in it. It's sometimes hard to separate too much compression, where the bike simply jumps up upon impact with the root (often harshly), vs. too little rebound where the fork absorbs the root but then pops up too quickly as the fork extends *after* the root.


I have found when people use the word "deflect", it is almost always a rebound problem. Rebound is always overlooked, but is just as, if not more important than compression.

I know quite a few people who run a single 17x.2mm shim in abs+ dampers. I don't think lack of compression damping is the issue.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

rupps5 said:


> Ashwinearl
> 
> I bet that the shim stack is too light. That is why you have closed your low-speed compression. If you open up your lowest speed compression do you just blow through the travel?
> 
> ...


4 clicks from open dives very easily and usually leave the LSC closed or 1 click open. Yes, I agree that the shim stack is probably too light. I recall reading in this thread that with a linear stack, that the LSC knob has limited effect.

Regardless, I am going to try some different stacks and experiment again.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Sounds like you are too fast on rebound to me. Slow it down and see if it helps


I will experiment with this. I know I was speeding up (reducing rebound compression) which sounds like it was making it worse!!


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dougal said:


> What's your air pressure? That's a very soft shim stack you're running already. It's likely not the damper.
> 
> How many CC of grease have you got in the air-spring? It's not too progressive?


I am running around 65-70psi. The entire cavity on the top of the air piston is packed with Slickoleum grease. I stopped adding any additional oil on top of it. Yes, I am beginning to think it is too progressive and will experiment with less.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

For XC, how do you recommend setting sag? ABS+ fully open , break stiction, and check in seated position? or standing?

Any suggestions for performing controlled testing away from the trail, such as riding over a two by four on the driveway?


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## CTB (Feb 2, 2008)

Sag should be seated in riding position on the flat. In theory as long as you haven't locked out either end, the damper position won't make a huge difference, but some folks insist on doing it with adjustments at full open. I don't.

If you're experienced tuning, you can use a curb near your house, etc. I use the curbs around mine to get a first shot at it, and then I'm usually no more than a click away once I hit a trail.

I check rear rebound by riding off the curb in front of my house seated - adjust to taste. I ride up the curb to check compression (like our ABS+ knob) and again, adjust to taste. I try to do the same speed and same place each time. Front rebount isn't as easy since I don't have any root-like objects nearby, but you can still learn things from a rounded curb. Then you do some tweaks at the trail if you don't like where you end up.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

ashwinearl said:


> For XC, how do you recommend setting sag? ABS+ fully open , break stiction, and check in seated position? or standing?
> 
> Any suggestions for performing controlled testing away from the trail, such as riding over a two by four on the driveway?


I check sag standing, but it's a mostly useless number anyway, so don't put too much stock in it. Judge mostly by feel. Compression should always be open when checking.

There is no way good way to test at home. When you are on the trail, you are you going faster, bumps are randomly spaced and various sizes, shaft speeds are all over place. Hitting a random bump or two in your driveway just can't replicate what a trail is like.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

ashwinearl said:


> It feels supple and moves on climbs


Sounds like excessive low speed damping isn't the issue, but if it is in fact the compression damping, the damping force at higher velocities might be too high.
If you consider the aim of tuning a compression stack in the damper is to dissipate a given amount of energy for an impact, a linear stack such as you've been trying will need to generate a higher peak damping force than a (bleed closed) preloaded stack to absorb the same energy. My (contestable) logic is to set the platform shim preload to give a threshold/blow off force I am happy to put up with (10-15kg for me), then add some speed shims to provide more damping at higher velocities. One or two clicks open on the adjuster seems to be enough to smooth the transition from bleed flow to stack flow.
Thats my logic behind the clamp, 19x0.2, 11x0.1, 17x0.15, piston face.
It would be good if the piston step depth was greater to give a bit more freedom in what you can fit in for the speed shim stack height but it seems just adequate.


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

sine waiver said:


> a 11x0.1 spacer shim (to reduce platform shim preload) and a single 19x0.2 platform shim.


sine waiver, would a 10x or 10.5x size work in place of the 11x0.1 spacer. I have 10x0.1, 10x0.13, 10x0.15, 10.5x0.25, 10x0.2

I am similar in size and ride style. 140lbd 63kg, riding aggressive XC


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

ashwinearl said:


> sine waiver, would a 10x or 10.5x size work in place of the 11x0.1 spacer. I have 10x0.1, 10x0.13, 10x0.15, 10.5x0.25, 10x0.2
> 
> I am similar in size and ride style. 140lbd 63kg, riding aggressive XC


I'm sure the 10 or 10.5 would work, just means a slightly softer speed shim. Having the slightly thicker shims on hand might be good to fine tune the platform threshold. The 0.13 or 0.15 might be good to provide a very light platform.
You could also use a similar thickness but larger diameter shim in place of the 11 if you want to stiffen the speed shim for more damping at higher velocities.
The best thing is that it is so fast to change you can try a lot of options, compared to a fit4 I've been playing with.


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## minisman (Mar 31, 2009)

sine waiver said:


> If you consider the aim of tuning a compression stack in the damper is to dissipate a given amount of energy for an impact, a linear stack such as you've been trying will need to generate a higher peak damping force than a (bleed closed) preloaded stack to absorb the same energy. My (contestable) logic is to set the platform shim preload to give a threshold/blow off force I am happy to put up with (10-15kg for me), then add some speed shims to provide more damping at higher velocities. One or two clicks open on the adjuster seems to be enough to smooth the transition from bleed flow to stack flow.
> Thats my logic behind the *clamp, 19x0.2, 11x0.1, 17x0.15*, piston face.
> It would be good if the piston step depth was greater to give a bit more freedom in what you can fit in for the speed shim stack height but it seems just adequate.


So I tried a variation of this stack, since you think its a good XC race style. Since every time a setup a stack a do the garage bounce test and like to have near-lock out. I couldn't handle 1x 19mm platform shim, so added 2x 19x0.2 shims, especially since the only crossover shim i had was 11x0.25, i was loosing a lot of preload so thought I'd stiffen it up.
Garage test still felt too soft and had brake dive with all clicker settings.
Trail test.... well its too harsh!!! but it gave quite good control... I'm looking forward to where this is heading, will try a new variation of the stack this weekend.


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## sine waiver (Mar 30, 2016)

minisman said:


> So I tried a variation of this stack, since you think its a good XC race style. Since every time a setup a stack a do the garage bounce test and like to have near-lock out. I couldn't handle 1x 19mm platform shim, so added 2x 19x0.2 shims, especially since the only crossover shim i had was 11x0.25, i was loosing a lot of preload so thought I'd stiffen it up.
> Garage test still felt too soft and had brake dive with all clicker settings.
> Trail test.... well its too harsh!!! but it gave quite good control... I'm looking forward to where this is heading, will try a new variation of the stack this weekend.


You could try just one 19x0.2 and no 11 so you have more preloaded on the 19 shim for more platform but less higher speed damping than the 2x19 shims you tried.


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## Mackmountain (May 2, 2016)

I had herd somewhere that what you put in front of a shim will reduce it's platform. Going by this theory I came up with a stack that works quite well for me. 

Im running a manitou minute expert 130mm with iso air and tpc damper.

I found 2 platform shims too much but one not enough. 
Starting with the xc tune I went with 2 platform shims and put 3 or 4 speed shims in front (instead of just 2). This theoretically would make the two platform shims almost ineffective. 

So I thought why not give the platform a little more help and put a 13 behind them and clamped it with a 1.1mm washer.

Seems to work great for me. I'm a heavier rider and the fork sits a lot higher in the travel without having to increase air pressure. Has a great pedal platform with just a little give for comfort without bobbing everywhere.

Doesn't dive everywhere and really handles most situations better than i ever hoped for. I haven't changed it as I can't really see how I can make it better than this.

Only running 75 psi with lsc fully open and reboud 3 of 7 clicks open.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

i don't have any recommendations, but i'd shoot for a stack that allows my lsc to be midway. just so i could have a nice range for "those days". if your happy then i guess thats waht matters


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Any suggestions on cleaning/checking the Rebound Assembly on a Manitou Marvel Pro? I don't want to retune it or change shims, just clean it and verify that the check valve is working correctly.

Thanks


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

Can somebody help me, please?
I can't pull the piston down from the rod. I've tried pulling it as hard as I can with my hands, I tried unscrewing it, but it just doesn't move.

What am I missing here? I don't understand what am I doing wrong. Isn't it supposed to freely slide down from the rod at this point?
I'm so frustrated. I am afraid to damage the piston if I try pulling it any harder than I do.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes, it is supposed to slide freely. Perhaps somebody has other suggestions, but I would support the piston from the edges and slightly tap the shaft end with rubber mallet. Sharp hits are better for braking free the seized stuff.


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

arnea said:


> Yes, it is supposed to slide freely. Perhaps somebody has other suggestions, but I would support the piston from the edges and slightly tap the shaft end with rubber mallet. Sharp hits are better for braking free the seized stuff.


It's a new fork, I just bought it. Impossible that it's seized. Also, it's made from plastic, what is there to seize?

I will try your suggestion and report back, thank you.


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

Destroyed the rod tread by hitting it with a mallet. So much about my new fork...














I suppose I can't cut the damaged part of this? Does this bottom part touch anything when the fork bottoms out?

Edit: managed to save the tread luckily. The nut goes on the tread just fine, but I still didn't manage to pull the piston out.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Isabis said:


> Destroyed the rod tread by hitting it with a mallet. So much about my new fork...
> View attachment 1162011
> View attachment 1162012
> 
> ...


Try twisting the piston to break it free. I have come across some tight piston, but never stuck.

And for future reference, never hit the threads of anything. If you are going to do that, thread the nut on so you hit the nut, this protects the threads.


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

mullen119 said:


> Try twisting the piston to break it free. I have come across some tight piston, but never stuck.
> 
> And for future reference, never hit the threads of anything. If you are going to do that, thread the nut on so you hit the nut, this protects the threads.


Thanks for the tip, I sure won't repeat the same mistake again.
I have tried everything with my hands, it doesn't move one bit. I am not a weak person so we can rule that out - me not having enough strength. I don't understand what is there between the piston and the rod to cause this? It makes no sense.

edit: simply can't remove it, I suppose I am stuck with "Production XC stack" unless I buy another damper some day. That's disappointing, I already had 5 shims ready to try different shim stacks.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

But write to Manitou technical support. This is not normal.

BTW what fork exactly you have? Does it have ABS+ or Kwik-Toggle lockout?


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

arnea said:


> But write to Manitou technical support. This is not normal.
> 
> BTW what fork exactly you have? Does it have ABS+ or Kwik-Toggle lockout?


I destroyed the damper by hitting it with a mallet, hardly believe Manitou would cover this even if the fork was bought from the official distributor, which isn't the case. I bought it here, it has ABS+ damper: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Manitou-COMP-27-5-29-inches-100-mm-cone-tube-shoulder-controlling-gas-fork-fork-fork/32721289925.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.lFcyeY


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Thats not even manitou more than likely, thats probably a counterfit otherwise it is a factory reject thats actually a pile of factory rejects slapped together and being sold by that seller illegally.

Never ever buy "branded" parts on alibaba. Rarely do you not have problems.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Hot water is good for removing stuck plastic parts. The plastic expands more with heat than the aluminium does.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Except both parts are aluminum not plastic, at least in real manitou forks

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Except both parts are aluminum not plastic, at least in real manitou forks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


ABS+ comes in versions with aluminium or plastic pistons now. Different price points.

It's a real manitou damper.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Didnt know they made plastic pistons in ABS dampers at all, thats a new one. 

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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> Didnt know they made plastic pistons in ABS dampers at all, thats a new one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Maybe within the last year. So yeah it's a new one.


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

RAKC Ind said:


> Thats not even manitou more than likely, thats probably a counterfit otherwise it is a factory reject thats actually a pile of factory rejects slapped together and being sold by that seller illegally.
> 
> Never ever buy "branded" parts on alibaba. Rarely do you not have problems.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I hear you, but when the damper is being assembled in the factory the workers slide the piston onto the rod. They make the rod in one piece and then the workers slide the piston onto the rod later. It's impossible that this is a factory reject or a counterfit. The damper is identical to the genuine one and the piston would never fit on the rod if there was a production error on it (extra material being on the part of the rod where the piston slides on type of error).



Dougal said:


> Hot water is good for removing stuck plastic parts. The plastic expands more with heat than the aluminium does.


I will try this and report back, thank you!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

If it was simply slid on it would come right off 

Aliexpress is literally worse than ebay and amazon combined for counterfeit, factory rejects and so on. A factory reject could simply be the batch has the issues you are having, so not user tunable as agreed. That piston being stuck could be from literally sitting in the mold for 3 seconds too long (i spent YEARS in plastics molding, 2-3 seconds, 0.05mm out of spec can me the difference between good or bad part thus reject or not).

Not saying Im 100% positive but Manitou handing off a ton of forks to be sold stupid cheap straight out of china...like thinking rockshox and fox forks can be found in legit form as well.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Isabis (Jul 17, 2014)

RAKC Ind said:


> If it was simply slid on it would come right off
> 
> Aliexpress is literally worse than ebay and amazon combined for counterfeit, factory rejects and so on. A factory reject could simply be the batch has the issues you are having, so not user tunable as agreed. That piston being stuck could be from literally sitting in the mold for 3 seconds too long (i spent YEARS in plastics molding, 2-3 seconds, 0.05mm out of spec can me the difference between good or bad part thus reject or not).
> 
> ...


Well, I am sure the rod is a single piece of aluminum so I don't see how else the piston can be installed other than being slid on the rod. Maybe the plastic is deformed in a way that the piston slides on the rod easily, but can't slide off. 
The fork really was dirt cheap and even if I bought a new damper, I would still spend less than what the fork costs when bought at official distributor, this is one good thing about all this.

The hot water trick didn't work, the piston was still rock solid and not moving after being submerged 5mins in a hot water.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

They make different versions for the SEA market
And KT damper has a plastic piston, by the way, so this one might be from the same mold, just removable (well, most of the time) and with a tuneable shim stack

X-fusion too has models won't see on their site being sold in China (X-32 EVO, for example)


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

What is the correct oil height for a 2015 Minute Pro? I seem unable to find that info on Manitou's pages or elsewhere. In the 2012 version it should be 87 mm and in the 2016-2017 version it is 75 mm. In mine it was 83 mm, after I had removed the damper and only spilled a few drops. I just bought it, but it is a model year 2015. I find the fork too soft for me, and perhaps it is because it has been running with too low oil.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

olao said:


> What is the correct oil height for a 2015 Minute Pro? I seem unable to find that info on Manitou's pages or elsewhere. In the 2012 version it should be 87 mm and in the 2016-2017 version it is 75 mm. In mine it was 83 mm, after I had removed the damper and only spilled a few drops. I just bought it, but it is a model year 2015. I find the fork too soft for me, and perhaps it is because it has been running with too low oil.


On the M30 manual for 2015, you have the oil chart for all the forks of that year.
They usually don't change it anyway.
Your Minute Pro it's listed there, the oil level is 75mm.
Go check it yourself, just to make sure.


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Aglo said:


> On the M30 manual for 2015, you have the oil chart for all the forks of that year.


Ok, thanks a lot. Should have checked there, I guess. Still, Manitou could have done better than hiding their user relevant information like that, imho.

Have now added oil up to 75 mm, and it does feel better going up and down on the sidewalks around the house. Might try it on the trails later today, but it is extremely wet and muddy at the moment, so nearly impossible to go fast on anything bumpy...

Nevertheless, I still believe it is a little to soft for me. It has the production XC stack (2 19x0.2 mm shims), but even at MAX it does not give a really firm platform. For me, that is - at 90 kg (200 lbs) and using around 100 psi. Am currently trying to order some more shims to play around with different stack setups.

After having had the damper apart a couple of times to inspect and measure the shims (and oil level), I feel uncertain about how hard to torque the nut below the piston. Have read the previous posts on the topic, but am not sure I understand the consequences of over- vs. under-tightening the nut. After all, there is a spring, but that seems to be entirely compressed anyways.

Edit: Went out on the driest trails and dirt roads I could find today (darn wet and muddy anyway), and it is a great fork. Still a little soft for steep ascents in the MAX, but perfect on bumpy trails and descents when 60-90 degrees open. Should correspond to 2-3 clicks I guess (but I have no clicks as mine is remote ready, so mounted without the spring and dialed by eye).


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## KoolGrandWizardLuke (Dec 23, 2017)

My current compression shim stack looks like this.
PISTON
17.5x0.20 (2)
19x0.20
19x0.15 (2)
19x0.10
17.5x0.15
15x0.10
13x0.10
11x0.50
10x0.15

The 10x0.15 obviously does nothing.
The fork has 100mm of travel.


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

I want to tweak the shim stack in my Marvel Pro, but the Abs+ damper seems to be stuck. Here's what I did:
1. Opened LSC (anticlockwise to max).
2. Removed adjuster knob, ball bearings and springs.
3. Unscrewed the damper with a 24mm hex socket until it started to "jump" on thread, so there should be no thread engaged.
4. Tried to pull the damper up, but it won't budge.

Can anyone help? Do I have to apply more force? The damper has not been removed before.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

Basically yes. Try to move it left and right while pulling outwards.


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

arnea said:


> Basically yes. Try to move it left and right while pulling outwards.


Nope, still doesn't work. There was comment about letting the air out earlier in thread, should I have done that too?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

the same situation with mattoc. This cap is sealed by o-ring deep in stanchion. It helds so much that every time I try to get it out my fingers suffer. IMO try harder and move it left-right during pulling. Then suddenly loud POOOOP occurs and everything is covered with damper oil


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Finally made it with help of copper wire, I wrapped it under the damper and pulled up. Just like @nikon255 said, my previous attempts resulted in finger ache, but the wire can be pulled with anything hooked.

Thanks for help, guys.


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Klaster_1 said:


> Finally made it with help of copper wire, I wrapped it under the damper and pulled up. Just like @nikon255 said, my previous attempts resulted in finger ache, but the wire can be pulled with anything hooked.
> 
> Thanks for help, guys.


Grab the stanchion by both hands, and firmly but slowly push the damper up by both thumbs, while wiggling it a little to the sides. Don't rush it, but let it take a few seconds to get it out. That usually works just fine, and mostly also avoids spilling much oil.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

after few times I found the same method, just gradually pull with some side to side movement.


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

I have some 17od shims laying around but their id is 6 instead of 8. Can i drill them out to fit the shaft or would that be impossible?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

hurck said:


> I have some 17od shims laying around but their id is 6 instead of 8. Can i drill them out to fit the shaft or would that be impossible?


It doesn't work that way. Your best bet is to buy new shims

You can also email [email protected] and nicely ask. If you are lucky, they may send you a few for free


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## hurck (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks, i’ll try it that way. Or order the ABS+ tuning kit somewhere. I’ll probably need to contact manitou tech support for the 2 mcleods i’m running. Those shims aren’t for sale (yet?)  

My mcleods are from when they first came out, so they probably still have the old shimstack. I still need to open them up to check for sure


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

hurck said:


> Thanks, i'll try it that way. Or order the ABS+ tuning kit somewhere. I'll probably need to contact manitou tech support for the 2 mcleods i'm running. Those shims aren't for sale (yet?)
> 
> My mcleods are from when they first came out, so they probably still have the old shimstack. I still need to open them up to check for sure


You can order shims online for about 1$ a piece plus shipping. It's kinda a crazy price, but is worth it if the don't send you a few (they probably will)


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Finally got around to measuring up and posting the ABS+ mini tuning kit shims.

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/abs-tuning-kit-small-manitou.html

Contains 24 metric shims.

8x10x0.1 (x2)
8x10x0.15 (x2)
8x10x0.2 (x2)
8x11x0.5 (x1)
8x17.5x0.1 (x2)
8x17.5x0.15 (x2)
8x17.5x0.2 (x2)
8x19x0.1 (x2)
8x19x0.15 (x4)
8x19x0.2 (x4)
10x20x0.15 (x1)


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Finally got around to measuring up and posting the ABS+ mini tuning kit shims.


That's a good deal, more shims and cheaper than from RSP 👍


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

I put oil in my air chamber to make it more progressive. Worked for a while, but now it is all gone. Guess I read some early posts in this thread and looked no further. In somewhat later posts it is explained how oil is gradually sucked down below the piston. So now I wonder, where exactly did my oil go? I have a Minute Pro with MARS air. I know that mullen119 has explained previously that it goes into the negative chamber, but is that so for a MARS fork? If I understand the anatomy of my fork it should first arrive in the chamber of the coil. If it is there, I guess it does little harm, but if it is in the negative it would reduce negative volume and make the fork harsh (and it is a bit harsh).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

olao said:


> I put oil in my air chamber to make it more progressive. Worked for a while, but now it is all gone. Guess I read some early posts in this thread and looked no further. In somewhat later posts it is explained how oil is gradually sucked down below the piston. So now I wonder, where exactly did my oil go? I have a Minute Pro with MARS air. I know that mullen119 has explained previously that it goes into the negative chamber, but is that so for a MARS fork? If I understand the anatomy of my fork it should first arrive in the chamber of the coil. If it is there, I guess it does little harm, but if it is in the negative it would reduce negative volume and make the fork harsh (and it is a bit harsh).


MARS has no negative chamber, so the oil flows down into the lower leg bath oil.


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## olao (Aug 17, 2017)

Dougal said:


> MARS has no negative chamber, so the oil flows down into the lower leg bath oil.


Oh, so I did not understand the anatomy of my fork... But then anyway, I will just leave it there until next time I have a reason to open up the lowers. I guess that should not be a problem. It is good oil - supergliss  The harshness I will try to fix through the shim stack.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Hi, I'm in the process of upgrading my wife's hardtail with a machete with ABS damper. 

Now that I have the damper sitting in front of me, can I get a suggestion for adjusting the shim stack (for now without buying a set of shims to play around with, but if necessary I can probably transplant some from a 2012 Minute Pro I have on the shelf) ) for a very light not aggressive rider?

Weight:48-49 kg
Trails: loose over hard interspersed with small rock gardens
Speed: low, still trying to get her to let the bike keep momentum over "scary" stuff and hope the new fork will help
Thanks!

(Side question: the blue damper oil that I poured out -with the intention to reuse) had a lot of micro bubbles. Was that due to the removal? Should I just use new oil?)


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

A picture to show what I'm working with:

On the left is the damper from a new 2018 machete 27.5 straight tube QR
On the right is the damper from a 2012 Minute pro 26

After measuring the stock shims, it looks like the machete comes with the production XC stack and the minute came with the trail stack.

Also of interest: The machete damper has a plastic piston as well as a different check valve design (drilled) with separate spacer to keep the spring centered.

My initial thought is to try the "EK-012611-03" (11x0.5, 19x0.2, 17.5x0.2) but am wondering about the effect of just leaving out the 17.5 speed shim and using (11x0.5, 19x0.2)

Without a set of thinner shims to try there's not much else on the table at the moment that I can think of.


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## fsrxc (Jan 31, 2004)

Desertride said:


> View attachment 1258519
> 
> 
> A picture to show what I'm working with:
> ...


I'm ~150lb-ish and my old/spare bike has a Minute Expert ('12) and I ran the 17.5x0.15mm speed shim without the 19mm shim. It will be more forgiving at low speeds (I have lots of rooty/rocky twisty singletrack) and feel fairly bottomless on bigger hits. If she finds it too unstable then you could try adding a thin 19mm shim.


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## rcracer2 (Nov 12, 2014)

Desertride said:


> A picture to show what I'm working with:
> 
> On the left is the damper from a new 2018 machete 27.5 straight tube QR
> On the right is the damper from a 2012 Minute pro 26
> ...


You will want a linear stack so 11 and 17.5x.2t and if you get the mini-kit or shims elsewhere online try thinner 17.5s; Remember it takes 8x 0.1t to equal one 0.2t (0.2^3 = 8*(0.1^3))
Going through a similar thing with my wife's Magnum on an Airborne Griffin B+ hardtail


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## aiv23 (Feb 8, 2019)

Not sure if anyone is still reading this thread, but it has has been really helpful. My fork is feeling much better having long suspected it was too harsh for my situation. 

On a side note, each time I crack the damper open (every once in a while) my oil level is higher. I’m guessing the oil is migrating from the lowers? Would anyone know what o ring to replace on the damper piston. This is on an OEM 2018 Mattoc Comp.


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## 96Turner (Jul 22, 2017)

Any ABS+ tuners have any input on this stack?

Trying to put together a winter setup for a Machete 32mm stanchion 140mm travel, switched to RS 2.5wt Oil for winter. Running a Dirt Wizard 27.5x3 for winter. Looking for a plush setup with around 125N of platform that is very compliant on small bumps, but with great mid support and traction for winter messy conditions.

So far i have:

11mmx.5t clamp washer
13mmx.1t platform
19mmx.15t platform
19mmx.15t platform
10mmx.25t preload reducer
17mmx.15t speed 
piston

If anyone with time tuning these stacks has any input it would be much appreciated!


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## dk76 (Apr 5, 2020)

Currently I have a 120mm Machete Pro with ABS+ damper. Have been tryng different tunes for a while, for now running Trail stack: 1ea 19x0.2 and 1ea 17.5x0.2. It gives me enough brake dive and g-corner support, very smooth over roots and rocks at slow speed. I ride it with 2 clicks from full closed on LSC, like the way it is slightly overdamped, but opens up when hit something. I have pretty much dialed my rebound perfectly where I want it to be. My geared-up weight is 170lb, I run about 72psi pressure, which gives me about 24% sag. The only problem is that fork gets easily overwhelmed while going fast? (17+ mph) in the rough stuff, I can definitely tell it packs really fast. I never use up all 120mm of travel, maybe 105mm max. So my only option now the way I see is try to increase air pressure, and maybe decrease rebound damping one more click?

To answer all tech questions in advance: I run 87mm oil level, use Maxima 5w oil, cycle the fork to purge the air during the damper install and assemble the ABS+ damper correctly.


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## dk76 (Apr 5, 2020)

96Turner said:


> Any ABS+ tuners have any input on this stack?
> 
> Trying to put together a winter setup for a Machete 32mm stanchion 140mm travel, switched to RS 2.5wt Oil for winter. Running a Dirt Wizard 27.5x3 for winter. Looking for a plush setup with around 125N of platform that is very compliant on small bumps, but with great mid support and traction for winter messy conditions.
> 
> ...


Have you downloaded the Manitou tuning guide?

You can try my setup, it's one of the Trail tunes: from the clamp shim to the piston direction: 1ea 19x0.2mm, 1ea 17.5x0.2mm. This is very good and supportive ride, but I'm having issues at high speeds in rough stuff, it packs out. Might be my air pressure and/or reboumd. If you don;t go fast, you'll like it. Just my 2C


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

No sure if this is the right place to ask, but anyone knows if new R7 damper/spring are compatible with older 32mm forks?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Klaster_1 said:


> No sure if this is the right place to ask, but anyone knows if new R7 damper/spring are compatible with older 32mm forks?


The Expert air spring can be made to fit TS Air or ISO Air forks with some light engineering work (machining to air piston and lower legs). It is not a bolt in in any way.
The compression dampers are listing a change in threads. But it's going to be late August before we have production models in to confirm.


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## dragoontwo (Dec 2, 2020)

I have a Markhor that upon removal of the stock damper, the piston removed itself from the damper. I purchased the M30 ABS + damper and installed it with a linear stack up. After installing the damper, it seemed to have no damping whatsoever, and the adjustment on top seems to do nothing. I attempted to remove the ABS damper, and it came out without the piston and shim assy attached. Is it a known issue to have the damper remove the piston head when installing or removing the damper assy? The first time I adjusted the ABS shim stack, it was dry(new) with loctite on the nut threads. Is the ABS piston o-ring just too tight? I just hope that all the pieces come out when I drain the oil.


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

dragoontwo said:


> I have a Markhor that upon removal of the stock damper, the piston removed itself from the damper. I purchased the M30 ABS + damper and installed it with a linear stack up. After installing the damper, it seemed to have no damping whatsoever, and the adjustment on top seems to do nothing. I attempted to remove the ABS damper, and it came out without the piston and shim assy attached. Is it a known issue to have the damper remove the piston head when installing or removing the damper assy? The first time I adjusted the ABS shim stack, it was dry(new) with loctite on the nut threads. Is the ABS piston o-ring just too tight? I just hope that all the pieces come out when I drain the oil.


It happened to at least one other guy in this thread. I myself unscrewed top cap from the shaft. I think it happens if you rotate damper too much when it is already unscrewed. That nut should be tightned to something like 2.3-2.8 Nm. No need for loctite on the nut. When there is no difference when adjusting LSC knob (asuming shim stack is not too light) that is usually due to bent or improperly seated check valve shim (one under piston). That shim needs to sit on the check valve guide (black thing on the spring needs to go through that shim to keep it centered). Also if you did the upgrade from Kwik toggle you need to add some oil. Oil level should be checked every time you pull damper out.


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## dragoontwo (Dec 2, 2020)

From center top: nut, seat, spring, spacer and check shim. Which end of the spring sits against the check shim? The current Markhor manual states 92mm for the 80/120 with no change for abs. It also listed the Machete 90/120 kt or abs at 87mm. This is the only call out in the manual for abs oil level. What would you suggest for my 80mm Markhor? 92mm? 87mm?

Eta: In the tuning guide, it looks like the big end of the spring sits on the check shim. Is this correct or a case of a wrong graphic?


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

dragoontwo said:


> View attachment 1919014
> 
> 
> From center top: nut, seat, spring, spacer and check shim. Which end of the spring sits against the check shim? The current Markhor manual states 92mm for the 80/120 with no change for abs. It also listed the Machete 90/120 kt or abs at 87mm. This is the only call out in the manual for abs oil level. What would you suggest for my 80mm Markhor? 92mm? 87mm?
> ...


It looks like yours is little different than mine. Check this picture:
How to guide: Reshim your ABS+ HSC shim stack
Yours is on the left, mine on the right.
I never dealt with one like yours, but from what I can see from the post I've linked, proper order should be nut, seat, spring, check shim and *then **spacer*.
Be carefull though before thighten the nut, cause usually it is quite obvious when something is not seated right. Check shim should sit dead flat, dead center on the piston.
Wide side of the spring sits against the shim.
Oil level should be 83 mm (or 80-85 mm range) for 80 mm and 100 mm travel.
Also from your photo it looks like check valve shim has small dent on the bottom of inside diameter. It could be just enough to let the oil bypass the shim stack. But maybe it's just the photo.

And just one more important notice. It could be the photo quality, but your damper, piston and shims (probably oil in general) looks full of dirt particles. It could also be something that prevent shims from being properly seated.


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

I am so glad this thread is not dead. It is great source of information. 
I've found one more mistake in tuning manual. It is the CV-11411-05. I've tried it and there is no platform at all, so I assume there should be only one reducer shim instead of two. I ended up having 5 pcs of 19x0.2, 2 pcs 17.5 x 0.15 and 1 pc 17.5x0.1. I think platform is around 250 Nm. Just ok for stand up pedaling (there is small and slow movement). Running at max -2 gives great supprot. You can really lean forward and put some weight on the front wheel in the corners (I ride xc). On my usual trail I had two spots where g-outs would turn my stomach upside down. After I added velocity shims as mentioned above, it is all gone. Fork is little rough when trail gets chattery. Max -4 is really plush for gravel roads. So the range of setup is just what I need. 
I am satisfied and don't want to change, but CV-11811-06 looks interesting.
It looks like max would give you some platform, and 1-2 clicks open would be almost linear? Anyone tried it?


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## dragoontwo (Dec 2, 2020)

I don't think that little nick in the check shim will be an issue, but I was going to see if I could flatten it back out a bit. The dirty look is the photo quality. My basement is not well lit. The fork has not even been ridden except for a few loops in the driveway to check the damping before hitting the trail. The check shim and spring both float around the spacer. Where are you getting 83mm oil level?


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

As for the oil level, Markhor, M30 and R7 (old not new one) are the same (R7 MRD is different!!)
Same info can be found here Manitou Kwik-toggle damper anyone?

As for the check shim, it needs to cover ports on the bottom of the piston. 
If you rule out dent on the check shim and check shim is properly installed, then make sure oil level is correct and shim stack is firm enough.
What shim are you using for the shim stack?


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## dragoontwo (Dec 2, 2020)

geranoll said:


> As for the oil level, Markhor, M30 and R7 (old not new one) are the same (R7 MRD is different!!)
> Same info can be found here Manitou Kwik-toggle damper anyone?
> 
> As for the check shim, it needs to cover ports on the bottom of the piston.
> ...


Covering the ports should be fine. Will double check later. My Markhor is newer production, but 5mm more oil surely won't hurt. I was going to try 2 17 x 0.25 shims instead of 3 17 x 0.20 as I put my other 17 x 0.20 shims into my Machete. I am going to try 17 x 0.25(2) and 17 x .020(1) a modified CV-11411-10. If I still don't like it, I'm going to try CV-11411-12.


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

dragoontwo said:


> Covering the ports should be fine. Will double check later. My Markhor is newer production, but 5mm more oil surely won't hurt. I was going to try 2 17 x 0.25 shims instead of 3 17 x 0.20 as I put my other 17 x 0.20 shims into my Machete. I am going to try 17 x 0.25(2) and 17 x .020(1) a modified CV-11411-10. If I still don't like it, I'm going to try CV-11411-12.


Than it's probably oil level, although, I wonder could you notice much difference with 2 17 x 0.25 compressing the fork only by hands. Real effect of the velocity shims is at high shaft speeds. 
If you didn't already, check the first page of tuning manual. Not sure but I think 3 pcs of 0.2 thck could be just the same as 2 pcs of 0.25 thck.


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## geranoll (Nov 21, 2020)

geranoll said:


> Not sure but I think 3 pcs of 0.2 thck could be just the same as 2 pcs of 0.25 thck.


Or 2 pcs of 0.25 thck is almost two times stronger than the 3 pcs of 0.2 thck?? 😅


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## fuzz_muffin (Dec 24, 2017)

Hey all, 

Thought about posting a new thread but this place seems like the more appropriate place for my questions.
I have a Manitou J-unit 24 fork that's gonna be used on a 24" DJ type bike, so smooth trails and decent sized doubles, and possibly some street is the name of the game. The rider is rather light at about 55kgs.

The plan is to grab the tuning kit from ol' mate Dougal.
A quick squish indicates that the current tune (youth apparently?) will be a bit shithouse for fast, smooth and lipped jump lines. 

Yes I have a copy of the tuning guide, and will start with the jump tune

What is the goal with damping curves for jump bikes? lots of support from the platform? any other considerations apart from 'hard as ****'?
Is the 120 psi pressure limit a 'hard' limit on the J-unit? 
Any oil recommendations? 

First time shim fiddler but I'm decent with mechanical stuff, graphs are my bread and butter and I like them. 

Cheers.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Tuning a new to me older Machete 120mm 29+ Boost fork that I've reduced to 100mm and upgraded to ABS+.
The aim is a better fork for full suspension single speed XC/marathon type riding than the Reba boost that was on it.
The Reba is lighter and 30mm less A-C.

I'm looking for a reasonable platform when locked out, supple up top but able to handle any surprises on the course or mistakes made in the latter stages of a 6hr.

Started with the stock trail stack (11x.5, 19x.2*2, 17.5x.2) as the stock XC stack had far too much platform and not enough velocity dependency (if I'm understanding that correctly?) for normal training.
The stock trail stack hasn't got enough platform.
Next test will be with 11x.5, 19x.2*3, 17.5x.2 to give some more platform and HSC.
At least that's the idea. Reality may be different.
I'm using a ShockWiz to help tune.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fuzz_muffin said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Thought about posting a new thread but this place seems like the more appropriate place for my questions.
> I have a Manitou J-unit 24 fork that's gonna be used on a 24" DJ type bike, so smooth trails and decent sized doubles, and possibly some street is the name of the game. The rider is rather light at about 55kgs.
> ...


Jump stack is incredibly stiff. I wouldn't put one under a 55kg rider unless they were mad-core. 
I've been riding a bit of ABS+ lately and found two 17.5x0.1mm shims (no platform shims) were working well for choppy grade 5-6 trail. Anything more kicked too much. You can go much firmer on smoother trails with single big impacts.

The Youth Tune is:
8x17.5x0.15(2), 8x91x0.15,8x11x0.5mm.
I don't have a dyno for that tune. But I think it's a very good starting point for a jumping kid.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Next test will be with 11x.5, 19x.2*3, 17.5x.2 to give some more platform and HSC.
> At least that's the idea. Reality may be different.


Right amount of platform, too much HSC. Felt very similar to the Reba.
Next is swapping a 19x.2 with a 19x.15 to soften the HSC and a thinner speed shim to bring a little of the platform I'll lose back.
In theory...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Oops. The rebound pop-off washer looked like a wave washer. Quite bent. That'll invalidate the previous tests...
Luckily I just got a tuning kit from Dougal.
11x.5, 19*.2*2, 17.5x.1 seemed quite nice. Won't get to test it properly before the race tomorrow night though


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Oops. The rebound pop-off washer looked like a wave washer. Quite bent. That'll invalidate the previous tests...


The popoff cap/guide had pinched the centre of the slightly off-centre shim so it couldn't move...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Settled on my final(ish) XC/Trail stack.
11x.5
19x.15
19x.2
17.5x.15

Less platform than the stock XC stack and a little speed dependency.
Now just to play with pressure, tokens & rebound.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Marvel 100mm fork on a Kona Unit SS.
> 90kg rider, riding everywhere.
> 
> It'll be used for playing in the hills, XC racing, back country epics.
> ...





two-one said:


> You can also place one or more 12mm shims under the stack. These shims don't have to flex, but just reduce the 0.6mm preload that is normally placed on the XC stack.
> If you use a shim of about 17mm diameter it will also add to the overal speed sensitivity, which might be a good thing, or a bad one if you prefer a digressive (blowoff) feel.


80kg rider now 
The ABS+ damper has been transplanted from the Marvel to the Machete and from the Kona Unit to the Giant Anthem - still single speed.
It looks like I've ended up with 19x.2, 19x.15, 17x.15 which is giving a good platform and support at the speeds I ride/race at.
Played with 80psi and a RockShox token (machined down to press-fit in the topcap) and liked the progressiveness, but never got past 90% travel.
Back to 85psi and no token.
I'm finding myself adjusting the LSC often enough that a Milo might be the ticket.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

if you can't find a milo i think i have one in my bin. just saw you're in NZ, but the offer is still there


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

fishwrinkle said:


> if you can't find a milo i think i have one in my bin. just saw you're in NZ, but the offer is still there


Got one in my bin too 
Managing to get 8 clicks of the shifter from locked out to just over 1/4 of a turn more open.
I'll see this afternoon if the steps are suitable for racing.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

X0 9spd shifter and the Milo works fine, and I used it far too much, but it doesn't feel right to be using it on *this* single speed.
I'd love to remove the dropper and put my carbon post on too, but I'm even more useless in tech without it


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## Schnazel (7 mo ago)

Hi all, I read a good piece of this thread already and would like to ask some advice regarding the shim stack on my manitou markhor. 
I'am 90kg with 1,94m of height and got the fork on a 2014 Kona Unit riding it with 100mm of travel. I rode the stock XC stack for a while which I found ok but a little harsh with too much break dive, once the platform was exceeded. So I tried the production trail stack with on speed shim and two platform shims, which was not enough platform for my liking. I like to hammer into the pedals from time to time especially on flats or flow trails and also like climbing quite much which is mostly done out of the saddle. 
So I added one platform shim to the trail stack (19x0,2). The platform is quite nice now when closed (have to stand up and hammer it to get movement), but the fork still feels too harsh for my liking although velocity dependency went up and small bump compliance is a little bit better. The wide open position is ok on trail. I also noticed the fork uses just 70% of travel so that could also be increased a bit, it feels a little too progressive somehow. At the moment I run it at 110 psi to get around 20% sag and avoid top outs. 

I thought I eventually replace one 0,2 platform shim with a 0,1 platform shim and try that out, but wanted to ask if anyone has some advice what I could try to reduce the harshness a bit further by keeping a good amount of platform (I know its not an easy undertaking since the harshness comes as a byproduct of the platform setup). 

The trails I ride are mostly what would be XC in the modern terminology - steep uphills, moderate downhills with mostly flowy trails, roots in various sizes, occasional steep sections - the kind of stuff where you have to work quite good on a hardtail and have to choose your lines wisely. 

Thanks in advance!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

If I put my Marvel back on my Unit, I'd run the same stack I've got on the Anthem (both single speed, standing climbing).
19x.2, 19x.15, 17x.15
Locked out for smooth climbing and one click open for normal trails.
Fully open for rough descents.
Get to about 90% travel on a normal ride (inc small jumps) and only closer to 100% if I stuff up.


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## Schnazel (7 mo ago)

Thank you, Ill order a 17x.15 shim and try that out, seems like a sound stack. I suppose you lower the plattform a bit with the second plattform shim which is thinner and the thinner velocity shim lowers the velocity dependency and progression a bit. Will try it as soon as the shims arrive!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I tuned it with the aid of a ShockWiz and Dougals tuning guide http://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/wysiwyg/shockcraft_1_page_suspension_setup_guide_v0.pdf


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## Schnazel (7 mo ago)

I know the tuning guide, but shockwiz is new to me. Ill check that out eventually, thanks again


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## Schnazel (7 mo ago)

Ok, short feedback:
I installed the aforementioned shimstack and padeled a few times around the house, and it feels pretty amazing. Keep in mind I have to test it on trail but first impression: the fork is more sensitive, small bump compliance is way up and harshness completely gone. When closed the fork is pretty stable, seems at least as stable as with the 3x 19x.2 shims but without the harshness. It also it travels further into travel and brake dive feels more controlled. Very nice! 
Thanks a lot!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Big rider at 6'2" 250lbs building up a 29x3" hardtail using a Mastodon PRO (I had it from my fat bike build, and have been riding rigid). I am riding rigid now, and really really like the qualities of rigid with regards to pedaling platform, no brake dive, and being able to stand out of the saddle climbing w/o riding super low in the travel (which usually happens because of my weight). 

I would likely enjoy the XC tune, but having very limited time to tune I am wondering if there are any tips on what people might think would work for my weight. I am also looking to do the remote lockout as well.


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