# Anybody know what is up with Curtlo Bikes?



## leadbutt (Mar 5, 2004)

I was e-mailing back and forth with Doug back in January. Even sent in deposit about the middle of the month, but since then I've not heard ANYTHING! I've left 3 or 4 voicemails and sent 2 or 3 e-mails. And still...nothing.

I'm just wondering if anybody has heard anything about Doug - he's always been pretty quick to respond but to not hear anything from him, esp since I'm on his waiting list, is strange.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

I'm waiting on a frame.... coming up on 6 months since my down payment, haven't gotten a sketch yet. I anticipated a 4-6 month wait going into this, so I'm not panic-stricken just yet. 

Doug's always replied to my emails within 48hrs, and he's been very receptive to my questions and requests. We last spoke via email on March 4th. We still have snow on my favorite trails so I can't see being too put off by the extra wait, but it's getting harder to stay distracted....

Hopefully he'll be sending my sketch and calling you back shortly  
fingers crossed....


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Give it some time...*

I'm not trying to excuse poor communication, but you're probably buried *deep* in the waitlist right now, so he may be swamped and it's taking some time to get back to you. Or he spent your money on hookers and blow and he's fled to Tajikstan to live like a king for the rest of his days...

Hmm. Now that I think about it, I, um, gotta go now...(sound of tires squealing)

I know that personally, it's really a drag when people send me emails every day changing their minds about stuff when the build is months and months away - just make yourself some notes about what you want to change or ideas, then spring it ALL on me at once when we're ready to start designing - much easier time-wise for me. And if it's just too exciting to wait - call me. Email can be a pain when you want to discuss the ins and outs of some doodad - it's way better to talk on the phone.

Weirdly enough, some people seem really uncomfortable with the phone in general.

Anyway, I hope you hear back soon. I'd keep calling (don't bother with the voicemails) until you get him in person. Good luck!

-Walt



leadbutt said:


> I was e-mailing back and forth with Doug back in January. Even sent in deposit about the middle of the month, but since then I've not heard ANYTHING! I've left 3 or 4 voicemails and sent 2 or 3 e-mails. And still...nothing.
> 
> I'm just wondering if anybody has heard anything about Doug - he's always been pretty quick to respond but to not hear anything from him, esp since I'm on his waiting list, is strange.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Yup.....

Also- Doug mentioned that he had some unplanned family travel come up in Jan/Feb. Might be a factor....

I was pondering Doug's business model last night....from what I've heard, he personally makes 1000 frames or so a year, at ~$825+/- each. And he's been doing this for 20 years.
That tells me two things:

He may have made 20,000+/- custom frames. Maybe I'm off by a few thousand but obviously Doug has the experience to make a killer custom bicycle frame.
He's obviously not in it for the money, or to grow a larger business at the expense of quality.

And with that I will continue to wait patiently......


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## Sleeveless (Nov 18, 2006)

FM said:


> Yup.....
> 
> Also- Doug mentioned that he had some unplanned family travel come up in Jan/Feb. Might be a factor....
> 
> ...


I spoke with him a few months ago about a custom steel monstercross, and he quoted me a great price. I haven't put my deposit down just yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I find it hard to believe he makes 1000 frames a year. Seems like he would need more people to make 3 frames a day. I'm just guessing, as I don't have any personal experience.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*1000 frames??!?*

I'm generally kinda middle of the pack as far as speed goes, and I probably do 60 a year. Admittedly there are also probably 50-60 forks in there too, but even if I just concentrated on frames, I doubt I could crack 70 working normal hours.

Steve, who is a very good fillet guy, and works hard, does _30_.

Doug is not making 1000 frames. Maybe 100. That would be really impressive in itself. But 1000 by himself, no way in hell. That's 3 frames a day. I'm hard pressed to make a complete frame in 6 hours or so, and that's just construction - I'm not counting talking to the customer, designing, hauling frames to PC, shipping, dealing with insurance and taxes, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great builder and I have nothing but respect for him. But 1k/year frames is just silly.

As an aside, I have no idea how he makes any money. I buy stuff in massive bulk and have essentially zero overhead and I'd starve to death selling frames for $800.

-Walt



FM said:


> Yup.....
> 
> Also- Doug mentioned that he had some unplanned family travel come up in Jan/Feb. Might be a factor....
> 
> ...


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

*No wonder he's not responding!*

I thought I read that somewhere, I'll see if I can find it. Of course, since I read it on the internet, it must be true! 

But yeah now that I think about it, no way. 
10-12 frames a month, done in batches, would still be pushing it for one guy who works full time and doesn't paint (?)


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

FM said:


> I thought I read that somewhere, I'll see if I can find it. Of course, since I read it on the internet, it must be true!
> 
> But yeah now that I think about it, no way.
> 10-12 frames a month, done in batches, would still be pushing it for one guy who works full time and doesn't paint (?)


Yeah, that was probably just a typo blurb somewhere.

All builders situations are different but I have never really known anyone to make much over 120 frames a year and that is hauling the mail. 40-60 seems about average. The super lugged guys less, Some of the TIG guys more.

Paint, really can pack on some time too.

Curto, I do not know him personally, but he is a good fillet brazer but does practically no finish work? That and simple, down to earth paint and designs probably keep the price low. I don't know how either cause my last build here cost a lot more than 800 bucks before I began

Dave Bohm
Bohemian


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

I talked to a very accomplished builder who can have a frame mitered and tacked within 4 hours. I am seriously jealous.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Yep.*

I remember hearing about a seminar given by Carl Strong (I wasn't there) in which he stated that if you're building with TIG, you should be able to build a bike (start to finish) in one work day if you want to make money.

I'm easily distracted and not very fast, but I think I can pretty easily build a frame start-finish in about 6 hours. I'm sure some folks are a lot faster.

Mmm. Thread hijacked! I'm the best mod ever...

-Walt



D.F.L. said:


> I talked to a very accomplished builder who can have a frame mitered and tacked within 4 hours. I am seriously jealous.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Walt said:


> I remember hearing about a seminar given by Carl Strong (I wasn't there) in which he stated that if you're building with TIG, you should be able to build a bike (start to finish) in one work day if you want to make money.
> 
> I'm easily distracted and not very fast, but I think I can pretty easily build a frame start-finish in about 6 hours. I'm sure some folks are a lot faster.
> 
> ...


Folks who worry about thread hijacking tend to be the worst mods ever.

It's the interscape, it's supposed to be wormy.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Walt said:


> I remember hearing about a seminar given by Carl Strong (I wasn't there) in which he stated that if you're building with TIG, you should be able to build a bike (start to finish) in one work day if you want to make money.
> 
> I'm easily distracted and not very fast, but I think I can pretty easily build a frame start-finish in about 6 hours. I'm sure some folks are a lot faster.


Longer than an hour to cut the ends of a tube and you're gotta start thinking there's something wrong with your set-up.

There's about five thousand people in the Pacific Rim laughing as they're reading this.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

To the OP. Three years ago, I ordered a Ventana based full suspension frame from Curtlo. I also agonized over the wait and lack of communication. But, when it's your turn, everything happens very quick. In the end I waited almost seven months, and it was well worth it. I'm the rider a stock 18" frame is made for, but this frame was so perfect. Extension of the body sort of thing. I plan on ordering up a road frame soon so leave the man alone and let him join tubes:thumbsup:


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## leadbutt (Mar 5, 2004)

I don't mind the wait at all. 3-4 months is what he said, but if it's 5,6 or even 8 now, I wouldn't care - I'd just like answers to simple questions. I'm not changing any specs - just wondering how soon I need to have my info in.

I even sent one e-mail just requesting a refund. If it's not possible, I don't mind but there's not been any tubes cut (he doesn't have any measurements on me at all). The lack of communication is what disturbs me. Since there has been NOTHING since January, I wondered if something hadn't happened to him (...bike wreck, dirty kidnapping hookers from across the border, etc...)


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## rmb (Feb 9, 2004)

I have a softail with the relish shock from Curtlo and it came in 8 weeks. It was also less than the dos niner frame, too hard to resist.

If he was away for a bit, he is really busy now and hard to reach. Like Walt said just call at different times during the day and try to catch him answering the phone. I think this is part of the inexpensive price, he is unable to communicate with everyone until it is their time.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

rmb said:


> I have a softail with the relish shock from Curtlo and it came in 8 weeks. It was also less than the dos niner frame, too hard to resist.
> 
> If he was away for a bit, he is really busy now and hard to reach. Like Walt said just call at different times during the day and try to catch him answering the phone. I think this is part of the inexpensive price, he is unable to communicate with everyone until it is their time.


I have never heard anything negative about Curtlo. People who really don't come through get a bad rep pretty quickly in this business. Leadbutt. I wouldn't worry about it. It will happen, that I am sure of.

People really don't realize how much is going on and how much it takes to stay in communication and answer the phone. Now, I am not making excuses but if you are brazing or welding, I do not pick up the phone or I would be stopping all the time. Other times you just can't be interrupted when for instance you have to be back in the paint booth in exactly 10 minutes. You know Seven cycles has these consumer advocates. There only job is to stay in touch with customers and process the order. I assume that they work with hundreds of customers at a time but it is a full time job and if you buy a Seven you are clearly paying for all these employee's. Communication is the downfall of many a framebuilder.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

I had worked with Doug years ago to get a custom hardtail. Waited longer than I wanted, but far less than with some other builders. I ended up with a fabulous riding frame in under six months. Simple, no frills, Platinum OX frame that rode excellently. No one else I found was able to touch his pricing for what I wanted and got in the end. 

Downside? Yeah, the man is busy and communication is slow. It's worth the wait. He's obviously gotten a little more expensive, and a little busier since then - this was in 2001. :thumbsup:


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## leadbutt (Mar 5, 2004)

I totally understand the dynamics of a one-man shop. I was owner, operator and janitor of a custom paint and sign shop for 7 years. However, I returned all phone calls and e-mails within 48 hours (at least). 

That's what concerns me - the lack of communication. I'm confident just by his reputation that the bike will be awesome, but not recieving replies to e-mails or voice messages after 2 months is disconcerting.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Not to start a pissing match, but some of the names thrown around here as 'benchmarks' in the framebuilding world may not be the best when it comes to things such as speed. John Slawta comes to mind as a guy who has been building decades longer than both Strong and Garro. Not saying that equates to quality, integrity, etc.. everyone can make their own minds about that. But speed? When I went to UBI in the early '90's Slawta was held up as the paragon of speed and efficiency. One a day, fillet, mad custom paint.

I would say Curtlo could do more like 300-400 a year pretty easily.

-Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> Not to start a pissing match, but some of the names thrown around here as 'benchmarks' in the framebuilding world may not be the best when it comes to things such as speed. John Slawta comes to mind as a guy who has been building decades longer than both Strong and Garro. Not saying that equates to quality, integrity, etc.. everyone can make their own minds about that. But speed? When I went to UBI in the early '90's Slawta was held up as the paragon of speed and efficiency. One a day, fillet, mad custom paint.
> 
> I would say Curtlo could do more like 300-400 a year pretty easily.
> 
> -Schmitty-


It is possible to build one frame a day. If one was to work 300 days a year then yes, one could do 300+ frames a year.

Now whether you want to do 300 frames a year is another story. Most of the time you have to have some sort of marketing help (John slawta sold through shops, this increased the amount of frames he could sell but greatly decreased the profit margin). The administration of building 300 frames a year seems to keep most single builders from being able to accomplish those numbers. One wants to ride a bike once in a while too eh?

There are lots of business models. The very low cost, very quick build is certainly one of them and one of the most profitable.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm a fan of Curtlo, and with that said, someone suggest that if he really is on leave, to put an away message up on the email and answering machine. Even under normal circumstances, an away message can be used via email to indicate that it will take some time to respond to email (along with a note on the website).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Yes, but....*

I spend about 1/3 of my time in the shop. The other 2/3 is website, email, phone, powdercoat deliveries, FedEx, taxes, insurance, ordering supplies, etc, etc.

Building the frames is the easy part, in terms of effort.

So yeah, lots of people could build 300 frames in a year. But there would have to be several other people taking orders, doing design work, etc, etc. Specialization is a great thing, and there are folks in Asia, as Thy pointed out, who are doing one part (welding a tube, or cutting a tube, or whatever) of building hundreds of bikes a day.

But we're talking about one-man (or woman, sorry Margo) shops here, right?

Doug sells good bikes at amazing prices. Complaining about poor communication on a custom frame that costs less than most decent production ones seems silly to me. Let the man build. If you want a more personal experience, be prepared to pay more money.

-Walt



Schmitty said:


> Not to start a pissing match, but some of the names thrown around here as 'benchmarks' in the framebuilding world may not be the best when it comes to things such as speed. John Slawta comes to mind as a guy who has been building decades longer than both Strong and Garro. Not saying that equates to quality, integrity, etc.. everyone can make their own minds about that. But speed? When I went to UBI in the early '90's Slawta was held up as the paragon of speed and efficiency. One a day, fillet, mad custom paint.
> 
> I would say Curtlo could do more like 300-400 a year pretty easily.
> 
> -Schmitty-


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Walt said:


> I spend about 1/3 of my time in the shop. The other 2/3 is website, email, phone, powdercoat deliveries, FedEx, taxes, insurance, ordering supplies, etc, etc.
> 
> Building the frames is the easy part, in terms of effort.
> 
> ...


AMEN! to that!!!!










I am not knocking you. Service should always be part of the deal, but if somebody is going to offer bargain basement pricing you have to think that something has to slip a little. Give it a little time, I am sure he will get back to you. You will probably love the result and forget about the path to get there.

Dave B


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

I find it confusing that builder's still can't seem to communicate with their customers in a timely fashion. In this day and age, there is no real reason for ann e-mail or a phone call to go more that 48 hours un-answered (and that's 48 hours at the most).
Why can't a builder find enough time while drinking a cup of coffee in the AM to answer a few e-mails. Even just a "Hey, I got your message and I'll get back to you about it (more in depth) in the next few days..." goes a VERY long way.


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

I think the builders posting their views on this forum are biased (nothing wrong with that), but the posts fail to recognize the current world and view of independent builders as shysters that can go out of business at any time and take your money. That's not the customer's problem, nor is it a fault of theirs to want to be reassured sometimes. Hell, six months and an update really isn't being unreasonable. The problem is not that of the consumers as is being charged here. There's an inherent flaw in the business structure that can be rectified fairly easily one of several different ways, but the consumers are being viewed as pushy and demanding and expecting too much for the price.

People just want to be assured their money isn't going the way of Mint and Chester.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Jerk_Chicken said:


> I think the builders posting their views on this forum are biased (nothing wrong with that), but the posts fail to recognize the current world and view of independent builders as shysters that can go out of business at any time and take your money. That's not the customer's problem, nor is it a fault of theirs to want to be reassured sometimes. Hell, six months and an update really isn't being unreasonable. The problem is not that of the consumers as is being charged here. There's an inherent flaw in the business structure that can be rectified fairly easily one of several different ways, but the consumers are being viewed as pushy and demanding and expecting too much for the price.
> 
> People just want to be assured their money isn't going the way of Mint and Chester.


I hope I'm not coming off claiming that indy builders are shysters or anything. But ALOT of them don't do themselves any favors by going with the almost "elitist" attitudes protrayed here. When a builder says "I'll get to you when I can", that just poor business practice.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

*Homework*

There have been a few threads like this about Curtlo in recent years. many have commented on the lack of communication from Doug, and although he claims 12 weeks, the norm seems to be 4-5 months and 7-9 is not unheard of.

I have worked at a custom frame shop, and they had the same communication issues, but 2-3x higher prices than curtlo. I hate to say it, but it only takes one posuer/OCD customer who needs daily hand-holding to set 10 other orders back 4-6 weeks.... thats the nature of the business.  (not referring to leadbutt here)
So I respect Doug's approach. At $825 we're not paying him to answer endless emails and phonecalls. He's busy building.

Whats *cool* is all these people who were totally P.O.'d about the wait and lack of communication, 3-4 months later they post and say "*Doug took care of me, I love my frame, I would definitely order through him again*" Now that's a very strong endorsement in my book! if somebody can go from p*ssed and wanting a refund to totally stoked.... and that seems to be the outcome every time. I found 4-5 customers like this, yet none really had anything bad to say about his frames.
:thumbsup:

I also like his no-frills approach. 
In my opinion too many custom builders and customers get caught up in the custom paint, fancy lugs, bent tubes, hand-made leather hand-bag stuff. I respect the skills involved but it's not want I want as a _*rider*_. I want the custom fit& ride but don't care about the look. I also don't need hand-holding. I want a bike frame not a girlfriend.

Anyways- good thread and I'll certainly keep this board up to date on my curtlo experience. I am as stoked as the day I ordered.

Good luck Leadbutt. Maybe buy a used frame to ride and keep your mind off the wait, I suspect you may have another 3-4 months.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I totally see where you guys are coming from and you are of course 100% correct.

I have been in business 15 years. I try and be truthful and prompt. I don't tell anybody 6-12 weeks, that is just a standard joke in our business. I tell the truth and if it kills the sale then at least I won't have a disgruntled customer.

If you go with someone that has been around a while then it is a pretty safe bet. Lets be honest here. Mint, Chester and some of the others where really driven by the "deal" and people were willing to forgo some lack of reputation for the lower price.

With that being said, I do believe that it is only cordial to return calls and e-mails promptly. I have to say, that my customers are more than awesome and have given me serious slack at times. More than understanding if I just stay in touch.

As far as fancy vs. not or user vs. not. None of that makes any difference to me. I should be the same great purchasing experience. A lug or nice paint job have nothing to do with it. 

Dave B
Bohemian


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Elitist?*

Well, I hope I'm not coming off as an "elitist" - I'm just trying to say that running a business is a lot of work. Like anything else, you get what you pay for. If you want fancy stainless polished lugs with the flag of Surinam carved into each one, you'll need to pay more money.

Likewise, if you want lots of personal attention and to discuss things in person with the builder, you would expect to pay more (at least IMO) than $800. At that price, to be very blunt, Doug probably does not have much time or interest in talking to you until he's ready to start cutting and welding. I could be wrong there.

Giving accurate wait time estimates and some basic level of communication (I have a page on my site where I update the waitlist and give basic info about my progress every few days) is something that everyone should be able to do, though, regardless of price. In the age of the internet, letting everyone know what you're up to is pretty easy.

-Walt



toddre said:


> I hope I'm not coming off claiming that indy builders are shysters or anything. But ALOT of them don't do themselves any favors by going with the almost "elitist" attitudes protrayed here. When a builder says "I'll get to you when I can", that just poor business practice.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Walt said:


> Likewise, if you want lots of personal attention and to discuss things in person with the builder, you would expect to pay more (at least IMO) than $800. At that price, to be very blunt, Doug probably does not have much time or interest in talking to you until he's ready to start cutting and welding.
> -Walt


That was pretty much my expectation going into it....

By the way- when I first looked at Curtlo, based off the price, I figured $825 was for custom geometry only, and Doug would probably would use a standard tubing, drop-out & hardware package to keep the cost down. I was pretty surprised when I asked for a quote on something outside the norm (Long travel FR hardtail, bigger tubes & gussets, full length cables, 73mm BB shell etc ) and he said $825 would cover it. I am paying extra for paragon sliders though.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Walt said:


> I spend about 1/3 of my time in the shop. The other 2/3 is website, email, phone, powdercoat deliveries, FedEx, taxes, insurance, ordering supplies, etc, etc.
> 
> Building the frames is the easy part, in terms of effort.
> 
> -Walt


yeah, buddy.........Strong may build a bike a day, and other game-on TIG builders i know do, but Strong also has his wife manning the phones & doing the people relations thing, AND a mechanic. that's sweet! when it's one guy you have to wear all the hats. i do 30+ frames a year *in a wheelchair*...........everything takes me a long time, BUT, i'm also forced to be very efficient because of it.....that's really all the frames i want to make, as it covers the bills, and heck - i wanna go do stuff, too.......if Curtlo is selling frames for sub $900.00 then he is a busy guy........i try for 4-5hrs of metal work a day. that's all i can pull in the chair in the shop. then there is client communication. lots of time there. lastly, people HAVE YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW FOR YOUR BUILDER!!!!! don't wait 9 months and not know what color you want or what fork you are going to use! please!! Steve.


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## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

I know that Doug was out of town for a funeral of a family member and I bet he is still catching up. I know that it got in the way of the framebuilder's article I have been working on.

Doug will take care of ya and the frame will be the real deal, but do not expect prompt communications for reasons already touched on by the other builders. Always been that way, not likely to change now.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

To go completely off track. One of the things I have always wondered about is pricing.

Now, I don't know anything about Curtlo's situation, or any numbers of production and the like but remember that graph in economics 101 where price vs. demand and theoretically where they cross is the optimum price. That is, if your price is too low and you have way too much business to do then you could, theoretically, charge more, make slightly less frames but the amount of income would be the same.

I would have to guess that Doug could charge lets say 200-300 more. His business would drop slightly but then again the profit margin would be greater and he would have to work less. I understand pricing goes across then entire scale from 200 dollar frames at supergo to 10k carbon uber road frames, but $825 seems awfully low in today's world. 

I used to offer a 1k frame. Oh some time back, but it was a smoking deal. Road or Mountain. Guess what. sold maybe 10. Nobody bought them. Most everyone upgraded. A few of those budget customers were some of the most challenging I have dealt with. I didn't do my own paint then but one was at the painter (seriously) and she was trying to back out because it had been there a month. I didn't have any control over it. Sorry, off track....Back to normal programing.

Dave B

P.S. I wondered if it was something serious like a death in the family. I hope everything is o.k.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I think the long wait is part of the mythology. If there wasn't a long wait, I think many customers wouldn't think the experience was that special.

I also think there are a heap of builders that just aren't quite there in terms of being able to justify another set of hands, and ironically aren't charging enough so that they can make that transition. The myth of the long wait = something special is probably conveniently masking that fact.


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## slowrider (May 15, 2004)

*Hard working builder.*

I swapped emails with him on febuary 18th through the 24th about building me a custom 4" fs 29r at his amazing price. I haven't pulled the trigger yet partially due to the wat time but I'm atill thinking about it.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I ordered a MTB frame from Curtlo back in 1998 and it's still my daily rider. I LOVE that bike. Yes, delivery was a bit late and I was somewhat peeved (painter took his sweet time), but I got a sweet frame at a ridiculously good price. I emailed pics of it to Doug a few weeks ago, and he remembered me.

I worked for a small bike accessory company, back in college, and my boss had a Curtlo road bike. He took delivery of back in 1994. He still rides that bike. As much as I enjoy looking at frilly, fancy lug and finishwork, I still prefer more basic frames (nothing against those of you here who specialize in fancy frames--I am in awe), and Curtlo is way up there in my book.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> I think the long wait is part of the mythology. If there wasn't a long wait, I think many customers wouldn't think the experience was that special.
> 
> I also think there are a heap of builders that just aren't quite there in terms of being able to justify another set of hands, and ironically aren't charging enough so that they can make that transition. The myth of the long wait = something special is probably conveniently masking that fact.


spoken like a true designer. you should try it out. also, there's some of us that just don't want employees. i owned a bike shop, and the two things i hate the most are backstock & telling people what to do. that's why i work solo. i have a very occasional helper for stuff like cleaning tubes & making ST sleeves. he auto pilots & that's all he wants to do. perfect. builders do what they do, in a time frame the are comfortable with, and charge what they charge. it's the consumer's choice to pony up or go with someone else. simple as that. Doug has been doing this for a long time. he's solid. Steve.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

toddre said:


> I find it confusing that builder's still can't seem to communicate with their customers in a timely fashion. In this day and age, there is no real reason for ann e-mail or a phone call to go more that 48 hours un-answered (and that's 48 hours at the most).
> Why can't a builder find enough time while drinking a cup of coffee in the AM to answer a few e-mails. Even just a "Hey, I got your message and I'll get back to you about it (more in depth) in the next few days..." goes a VERY long way.


I'm really not trying to be a dick here, but just wait until you're doing this on a pro basis and see if you feel the same 6 months in. I'm definitely not pro, but I have seen it from the inside. A lot of builders literally get 30 emails and 10 phone calls EVERY day. 75% are from 'anglers' just fishing for information about a bike they are simply thinking about and aren't ready to pull the trigger on. 90% of those people either buy the frame from someone else or never pull the trigger.

Buying a custom frame is a total passion purchase, and cyclists are very passionate about their sport. Many get more than a little OCD about their purchase. 430mm chainstays or 435mm? 32t chainring or 34t? XT or Middleburn? XO or XTR? 12-32 or 12-34? 71deg HTA or 71.25 HTA? 12" BB height or 12.25"? Rampages or Nevegals? A framebuilder usually has to answer 100 of these questions that aren't necessarily part of his 'job' on this framebuild, but customers tend to expect framebuilders to have all of this knowledge and advise them on every little detail of their build. It's part of the gig, but it's also an insane time drain. Then you add on the fact that people, especially cyclists, like to talk. One 'simple' phone call can turn into an hour if you're not careful.

We've gotten ourselves into this technology-driven instant-gratification mindset where we want to send an email inquiry and receive an email response back within 30 minutes. Some builders just aren't wired like that. People get into this industry b/c they are good at working with their hands and enjoy the creation/fabrication aspect. Talking to customers is, at least partially, a means to an end. A lot of us "cusomers" are in the business world where email rules and we sit in front of a computer all day, so we are used to instant communication. Framebuilders don't necessarily fit that model, especially if we're talking one person shops.

Sometimes it's not as simple as "responding to an email over morning coffee", especially when there are 65 emails in your inbox b/c you had to take an emergency week off for family issues. Maybe sending an email to your web design guy (or updating the web page yourself) did't rank high enough when you were preparing to go to a funeral or other emergency for a week, so the vmails/emails piled up for a week and now that you're back it's a little confusing to keep track of who you've responded to and who you haven't, etc.

I don't know Doug, but I do have a friend who has 2 of his frames, and he's very satisfied. As Walt and others have said, I don't think Doug's going anywhere, so my advice would be to email/call him with a slightly apologetic tone about getting worked up and just indicate that you're curious about where you sit in the queue. You get more flies with honey, and I can tell you that I have patently ignored difficult customers for short periods b/c they pissed me off with a vmail or email. I always respond eventually, but if you're going to get pissy with me, I make you wait, just out of spite.

Doug may have more important things on his mind right now.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Francis Buxton said:


> I'm really not trying to be a dick here, but just wait until you're doing this on a pro basis and see if you feel the same 6 months in. I'm definitely not pro, but I have seen it from the inside. A lot of builders literally get 30 emails and 10 phone calls EVERY day. 75% are from 'anglers' just fishing for information about a bike they are simply thinking about and aren't ready to pull the trigger on. 90% of those people either buy the frame from someone else or never pull the trigger.
> 
> Buying a custom frame is a total passion purchase, and cyclists are very passionate about their sport. Many get more than a little OCD about their purchase. 430mm chainstays or 435mm? 32t chainring or 34t? XT or Middleburn? XO or XTR? 12-32 or 12-34? 71deg HTA or 71.25 HTA? 12" BB height or 12.25"? Rampages or Nevegals? A framebuilder usually has to answer 100 of these questions that aren't necessarily part of his 'job' on this framebuild, but customers tend to expect framebuilders to have all of this knowledge and advise them on every little detail of their build. It's part of the gig, but it's also an insane time drain.  Then you add on the fact that people, especially cyclists, like to talk. One 'simple' phone call can turn into an hour if you're not careful.
> 
> ...


I can only imagine what kind of calls and e-mails custom builders get. But 2-3 months to get back to somebody???? Escpecially when the person has a deposit down???
I hope that there isn't something seriously wrong with Doug or some one close. But I'm questioning the fact that this seems to be a pretty common trend in the custom industry, and I'm not meaning to pick on anyone specifically.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Francis Buxton said:


> I'm really not trying to be a dick here, but just wait until you're doing this on a pro basis and see if you feel the same 6 months in.
> .
> 
> .


yo, FB - good post. you "get it" thanks! Steve.


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

toddre said:


> I But I'm questioning the fact that this seems to be a pretty common trend in the custom industry, and I'm not meaning to pick on anyone specifically.


It's not a common trend at all- a few whiners (not including the OP here) in this mtbr micrcosm skew the perception for a lot of people. And then posts like this (Toddre) just perpetuate this misconception. 
FWIW, I know for a fact that all the pros who've posted on this thread do a great job of communicating w/ customers and potential customers and they aren't the exeception, they are the norm.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Live Wire said:


> It's not a common trend at all- a few whiners (not including the OP here) in this mtbr micrcosm skew the perception for a lot of people. And then posts like this (Toddre) just perpetuate this misconception.
> FWIW, I know for a fact that all the pros who've posted on this thread do a great job of communicating w/ customers and potential customers and they aren't the exeception, they are the norm.


 I have to agree with everything you say here. I think I unintentionally let my feelings about this get way out of hand (my fault). If I offended and/or pissed anyone off, I do apologize.
I have nothing but respect for the guys who post on here and sorry if I painted with a really broad brush.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

toddre said:


> But 2-3 months to get back to somebody???? Escpecially when the person has a deposit down???
> I hope that there isn't something seriously wrong with Doug or some one close.


As I said previously, he's always gotten back to me promptyly, usually 12-24hrs, and has been very accomodating to ALL my questions and requests. It sounds like Leadbutts' case is somewhat unique and that may have to do with the timing and Doug being out of town. 
Unfortunately I think maybe Doug probably was probably dealing with something more important.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> Builders do what they do, in a time frame the are comfortable with, and charge what they charge. it's the consumer's choice to pony up or go with someone else. simple as that.


Nobody is arguing otherwise. However, there's always better ways of doing things and nobody is impervious, and personally I think it's healthy that we can discuss these things. Or we can collectively stick our head in the sand and be self righteous. Which is best?

Doug certainly is solid. In fact, there's very few bikes that resonate with me over the years, and one of those is a Curtlo. It was in an ad in MBA I think....two tone blue with darker blue jagged triangles over baby blue, with a headshock style fork. Baby blue before it's resurrection, and the curtlo stencil style graphics before stencil style graphics were cool. It looked like the Tirpitz in a party dress.










Still, communication in most regards in 'our industry' is something that could generally be improved. At least from where I'm sitting.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Still, communication in most regards in 'our industry' is something that could generally be improved. At least from where I'm sitting.


Agreed. It's a weak point for a lot of us, myself included. It's part swamp/alligators, and part just too much going on. I spend less time on the phone now than I did when I was building, and between the phone/email, it's still probably 6 hours a day. Note to self = if I'd update my site and finish the user guides, it'd save me a lot of time. Swamp/alligators. And stay off the internet.


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## Jaybo (Mar 5, 2008)

*Pretty skinny living*



Walt said:


> I'm generally kinda middle of the pack as far as speed goes, and I probably do 60 a year. Admittedly there are also probably 50-60 forks in there too, but even if I just concentrated on frames, I doubt I could crack 70 working normal hours.
> 
> Steve, who is a very good fillet guy, and works hard, does _30_.
> 
> ...


He would have to do more than that to pay his bills. If he only sold 70 frames a year at less than 1k he would not make much dough.

Jaybo


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Might not be in it for the money...*

Just figuring in my head, if you assume his per-frame costs are somewhere in the $350-400 neighborhood (which is doable with supplies bought in bulk and no overhead), he'd need to build about 125 frames/year to make $50k (which is a sort of minimal reasonable salary for a grown person, IMO).

That's 2.5 frames/week, if you work EVERY week. That's tough.

Of course, he sells complete bikes and parts as well, which helps some, but I think the bottom line is that he probably just likes building bikes and doesn't care much about getting rich. And I'm sure he's a fast builder, too. I can't really see a solo person doing much more than 2 frames a week once all the ancillary tasks are taken into account, though.

If I was him, I'd raise my prices by $200 or so, work a little less, and make the same (or more) money. But I'm not him.

-Walt



Jaybo said:


> He would have to do more than that to pay his bills. If he only sold 70 frames a year at less than 1k he would not make much dough.
> 
> Jaybo


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Walt said:


> he'd need to build about 125 frames/year to make $50k (which is a sort of minimal reasonable salary for a grown person, IMO).
> 
> If I was him, I'd raise my prices by $200 or so, work a little less, and make the same (or more) money. But I'm not him.
> 
> -Walt


Walt, I wish I had taken advice like this to heart when I first started. When you are in your early 20's, 20k a year seems like a decent living. My guess is that most framebuilders are making significantly less than 50k a year which really means that framebuilding cannot provide for their future needs. It is why we see so many framebuilders drop out and become something else.

I don't think it is any secret that framebuilding is about half of my income per year, the rest being computer/accounting/design or some of the many other things I have cultivated over the years. Many think that I must make a lot of money of some of these wonderbikes that I sell but the fact is the dollar/per hour is significantly less than most build in a day or two bicycle frames. The other reality is that I sell fairly normal-average bikes too and those are my bread and butter.

I agree too that Curtlo should raise his prices from purely from a business POV. His stuff is artificially low and he could probably easily work less and make the same amount. Even with an increase of 200 dollars he would still be one of, if not the cheapest options out there. But as you said, his business, we are not him.


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## Carl S (Feb 17, 2004)

*quick clarification*

Hi everyone I'm a little late to the party but I was just reading through this post and saw Walt's statement:

"I remember hearing about a seminar given by Carl Strong (I wasn't there) in which he stated that if you're building with TIG, you should be able to build a bike (start to finish) in one work day if you want to make money."

I thought I'd elaborate a bit. I probably said that but there is more to the story. I wasn't suggesting that a builder should be making 5 frames per week. It could be done but it would be very tiring and other parts of the job would be ignored. In a five day work week a proficient TIG builder that also focus on a quality product and customer service should be able to build a bike in a days time so on average, a good builder that does steel TIG will make 2-3 frame per week and about 60% of that for titanium. That time will be spread over a week and the other stuff that comes with the job will consume the other 20+ hours.

As for Doug, he's a stand up guy and a great framebuilder. My guess is that there is nothing to worry about and if he's slow getting back to customer it's because of extenuating circumstances or he's extremely busy. Like they say, "Quality, Service, Price, pick two".


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

could be like me, 25000 unread emails in my inbasket

I kinda wish threads like this would just go away. Bothers me every time I refresh the forum.


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## Pinchphlat (Feb 27, 2009)

Well as a recent (2009) owner of a Curtlo Epic Mountaineer, I can certainly give a view on how things stand at the moment.

I ordered my bike in July 2008. The designs were developed mid-November, and the bike was completed by the end of January. So that is 7 months. Worth every second of it.

I live in Australia, so picking up the phone to chat to Doug was not really a regular option for me. However he was always pretty good at answering emails, although sometimes several weeks would pass before I would hear from him. Readers should keep in mind that Doug IS Curtlo Cycles- once I didn't hear from Doug for a month, but that was because he was ill with a chest infection. There was no one else minding the store to reply to me during this time!


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## leadbutt (Mar 5, 2004)

UPDATE -- I received a check from Doug last week, a refund of the deposit I put down on the bike. I'd asked for it a week before but was beginning to wonder since I'd not heard/read/seen anything in response. Imagine my surprise when I opened the mailbox and there was an envelope from Washington state.

From everything I've read, I'm sure the bike would have been worth the wait. I still don't question Doug's ability to build a bike.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Thanks for the updates. Pinchphlat, I woudl love to see pix of your ride!

I'm just past 6 months... hoping it will be any day now :drumroll:


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## Pinchphlat (Feb 27, 2009)

Well since you asked so nicely FM...  

Here are some pics taken on a couple of my rides in the Blue Mountains (just west of Sydney). I have also posted a review for the Epic Mountaineer on mtbr as well.


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## Pinchphlat (Feb 27, 2009)

Oh and if you are wondering why the last two pics look a little blue, it is because of the flash distorting the colour.


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## BeatAFool (Jan 14, 2008)

> UPDATE -- I received a check from Doug last week, a refund of the deposit I put down on the bike. I'd asked for it a week before but was beginning to wonder since I'd not heard/read/seen anything in response. Imagine my surprise when I opened the mailbox and there was an envelope from Washington state.
> 
> From everything I've read, I'm sure the bike would have been worth the wait. I still don't question Doug's ability to build a bike.


in the end it all worked out.........................................for you!


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## gpsser (Jan 5, 2004)

FM said:


> Thanks for the updates. Pinchphlat, I woudl love to see pix of your ride!
> 
> I'm just past 6 months... hoping it will be any day now :drumroll:


I have had my Curtlo since last summer. FM, I think you may have been thinking of numbers from a post of mine. It is only about 100 or so frames a year that he told me he builds. Very family oriented guy, keeps his work to only about 40 hours a week, and takes a lot of family vacations. He also does a lot of xc skiing in the winter. Not an excuse for the lack of communication, but I understand where he is coming from.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Great looking bike pinchphlat!

The brazed joints look so nice. I am curious to see wheter mine will be brazed or TIG.

I am finding that additional riding really helps keep my mind off the wait :thumbsup:


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

The only TIGd Curtlos that I've seen were the Easton aluminum Vipers that he did back in the early to mid 90s. You were guaranteed to see a few if you lived or raced in the L.A. area.


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

I have never heard anyone that says "My Curtlo is a bad bike". Worth the wait I am sure.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

My Curtlo is a rad bike.


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## bigtymerider (Oct 4, 2008)

*Insight?*

I read some of these threads but not all of them. I spoke to Doug about a month ago and he is alive and well. Let me clear up a few things since I did drive 8 hours and spent 2 hours getting fitted and shooting the S$%^ with him in one day. My blog has it all in detail and some pics to his life style. He builds about 100 frames a year. The guy is not in it for the money and enjoys his free time. His timelines are usually off, any one that has researched him knows this. I honestly doubt that he checks his messages or e-mail daily. And he takes breaks between batches. I know this is not a buisness model we are used to but he seems to always come through and people love his bikes. He has a great little shop and sweet house in the country. And if all else fails I know where he lives  .


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## bigtymerider (Oct 4, 2008)

*Insight?*

I read some of these threads but not all of them. I spoke to Doug about a month ago and he is alive and well. Let me clear up a few things since I did drive 8 hours and spent 2 hours getting fitted and shooting the S$%^ with him in one day. My blog has it all in detail and some pics to his life style. He builds about 100 frames a year. The guy is not in it for the money and enjoys his free time. His timelines are usually off, any one that has researched him knows this. I honestly doubt that he checks his messages or e-mail daily. And he takes breaks between batches. I know this is not a buisness model we are used to but he seems to always come through and people love his bikes. He has a great little shop and sweet house in the country. And if all else fails I know where he lives .


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## strongale.lightbike (Sep 4, 2007)

*Communication is key!*

i ordered a epic mountaineer 29er in 07. i too ran into communication issues with Doug once we got the ball rolling. All i wanted was an update, like what walt has on his site (i would've gone with ya walt, but you wouldn't touch the soft tail!). I actually called the local paper in his town of business to see if he was recently reported missing, mauled by a bear or abducted by aliens. Serious. In the end he delivered me a great looking bike, although without the collegiate panels. i was promptly hit by a car commuting to work and then it fell off my buddy's hitch rack and dragged a few miles along onion creek road in moab. I thought maybe it was cursed or something. I (reluctantly) sent it back for repair, wondering if it would take another 4 months to get back. He turned it around quickly, welded on the requested bottle opener added the panels. its an awesome ride. combined with my brooks saddle, its actually quite dreamy!

i just emailed him a few questions and he returned my email in less than 12 hours...i was totally in SHOCK! But i give the guy a crapload of credit, his welds are beautiful; but can improve in his communication skillz a bit.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Screw that!*

This dude has been building longer that pretty much every other builder mentioned in this thread. Obviously, he's doing something right. Want unlimited hand holding, go elsewhere...want 24-7 internet droning, go elsewhere. Doug works how he works, it's no surprise, no false bill of goods. The poor guy probably has a search and rescure plane circling his house.

-Schmitty-


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## roox911 (May 28, 2008)

I'm now starting to lose a bit of faith in Curtlo. It has been 1 year (tomorrow in fact) since my order for 2 frames was placed. Originally I was told they would be built by the end of LAST august or septemeber (it was suppose to be an anniversary present to my Wife and I) Still can't get him to give me a timeline or return phone calls or emails. Last contact was 1 month ago today saying i was in the upcoming or the next batch. 

Am i just getting skipped in the queue or has anyone else been waiting for a year? I have been really relaxed over the whole wait, going months in between emails for updates. He was really great with getting back to me until the new year, now its just getting painful.

Any ideas folks?


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

We've ordered probably a few dozen frames from Doug over the last few decades for various projects, and orders for multiples have always taken longer.

But as stated all throughout this thread, good things come to those who wait.

---

A century ago, America used to be able to produce not only better products, but faster and cheaper as well. Now the Chinese do, and Americans fancy themselves all Artistes. Doug has been doing good work so long, and so successfully, he's indeed no longer in it for the money, but does have his process down, and is able to make a profitable business of carrying on the tradition that made America an industrial success.

If you want a great bike and hand-holding or speedy delivery, there are no shortage of other builders who will provide you with that. If you just want the bike, then Curtlo gives you the option to pay for just the bike, and get it. But don't complain that you're not getting the star treatment or that it's not happening fast enough. You didn't pay for that.


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## roox911 (May 28, 2008)

Oh, i dont mind waiting a bit for artisan quality. But when one is told 3 months, and 12 months later still doesn't have a build date, it gets a bit tiring. Hand holding not required, my measurements and pictures were sent out in July of last year.

I fail to see how a bit of venting about a 9+ month overdue order (with no end in site) is complaining about "star treatment". I'm asking for ideas/opinions and advice on what to do. I see that a gentleman that ordered a frame a month after me has had his since January. I fail to see how that is fair.

Like i said, i have been quiet and accommodating for a year, and assuming doug actually contacts me and we progress, I'm still going to love these frames.. But all i know is that now, I'm pretty much without 2 bikes for the season.



HotBlack said:


> We've ordered probably a few dozen frames from Doug over the last few decades for various projects, and orders for multiples have always taken longer.
> 
> But as stated all throughout this thread, good things come to those who wait.
> 
> ...


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Francis Buxton said:


> A lot of builders literally get 30 emails and 10 phone calls EVERY day. 75% are from 'anglers' just fishing for information about a bike they are simply thinking about and aren't ready to pull the trigger on. 90% of those people either buy the frame from someone else or never pull the trigger.


Best post in ithread. Those numbers are conservative. There are entire days and sometimes weeks that go by where you don't get more than an odd hour here or there in the shop, because everyone in the world wants to call you all hours of the night, to obsess about 650b vs 29 vs 26 vs 24 vs 2x9 vs 3x8/9/10 vs rigid vs suspension vs bushnell vs custom sliders vs this thing I saw on a 1920's shaft drive vs hydros vs mechs vs... and then that old chestnut "you should really get your frames made in china", and my personal favorite: "How do you, you know, design bikes?" What? "Like, how do you know how to do it?" ...or "Can you email me your FEA testing of my frame?" ...great, another mtbr guy.

Add to that, the proportion that the more of your time a person takes up, the more likely they'll ask you to sell them your product at half price as a "sponsorship" deal because they "have a lot of friends that look at what I ride".

When I was on my own, there were customers who would call up, say what they wanted, and ask you when it'd be delivered. Yes, I can do that, I'd say, and they'd get priority service. They were always the nicest customers, and were most of my repeat business.

And the next thing you know, you've got a dozen employees, you're bleeding money, your frames cost twice as much as they used to, and you're just hoping to god somebody buys your company before you lose everything.

Ah, bikes.


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

roox911 said:


> I fail to see how a bit of venting about a 9+ month overdue order (with no end in site) is complaining about "star treatment". I'm asking for ideas/opinions and advice on what to do. I see that a gentleman that ordered a frame a month after me has had his since January. I fail to see how that is fair.


The "star treatment" wasn't directed at you. Advice is to wait or order two bikes elsewhere. If we ordered three of a frame, we'd wait a year, and during that time, we'd order three or four single orders, and we'd have them in 3-4 months.

I'd recommend not ordering from Doug if you are currently without bike, and will be waiting for your Curtlo to arrive to ride again.

...and there you are.


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## roox911 (May 28, 2008)

HotBlack said:


> The "star treatment" wasn't directed at you. Advice is to wait or order two bikes elsewhere. If we ordered three of a frame, we'd wait a year, and during that time, we'd order three or four single orders, and we'd have them in 3-4 months.
> 
> I'd recommend not ordering from Doug if you are currently without bike, and will be waiting for your Curtlo to arrive to ride again.
> 
> ...and there you are.


All advise taken in. Had we known in advance that times given were not just wrong, but off by the better part of a year, we would have looked elsewhere, but we were told 3-4 months by the builder. Now that the summer is upon us, and the build kits are sitting in our spare room, the knowledge that 3 months actually = 13 months doesnt do us much good. We have bikes currently, but the wife is finding it mighty hard to keep up on our cyclo rides with a 35lb freeride bike  Again, this wasnt a "we need bikes now" thing, this was a "lets order bikes for the NEXT summer so we can really enjoy them", now i guess that was a foolish idea.

Either way, you seem to love the frames, as you have been riding them for years, and I am sure that we will love em as well.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Sorry, but I have to take issue with the comment that Doug's way of working is "carrying on the tradition that made America an industrial success.". It's how America (and the rest of us) _failed._

Essentially, I think if you want customer service, you have to be willing to pay for it. If you want a reasonable leadtime, then you have to pay for that, too.

It's pretty clear what you're getting yourself into when you decide to go with whoever for your next custom bike. Everyone is different, and Doug has decided to run his business in a certain way and you either put up with that or you shop on.


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

Not to be Mr. Obvious, but did you place a down payment with Doug? It is my understanding that this is how the process starts, but it is not communicated clearly. From what I have read here, until you place a deposit, the process has not started yet.

Sorry to hear about the long wait. I think a refund request would not be out of line for you. I recently placed a down payment with Doug, based on his low low price and I expect to wait a long time, but geez, a year is a really, really long time. I was told at least 16 weeks, which I know will turn into a much longer wait. If I approach 9 months, I am going to ask for a refund I think. You have a lot of patience. 

Depending upon what you ordered, there are builders who offer a similiar frame for just a little bit more. A certain builder in Colorado has a list that tells you exactly where you are on the build order and about how long it takes to get to the top of the list. If you are not particular on color, the price difference on a hardtail frame is only $175. As you add features, the gap grows (EBB, Paragon dropouts, etc). 

I know the price is low, but I am frustrated with your experiences to date. No one should have to wait a year (a year plus) when they are told 3 or 4 months. Just because you are getting multiple frames you should not wait longer - - - I mean perhaps one frame will be done right before the other, but two frames ordered at the same time should be completed about the same time give or take two weeks.


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## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Sorry, but I have to take issue with the comment that Doug's way of working is "carrying on the tradition that made America an industrial success.". It's how America (and the rest of us) _failed._


I agree with the rest of your post. But if you compare:

Building a skill, refining it tirelessly, doing the work yourself, keeping it simple, keeping your costs down, putting all your effort into the product, so you can charge a reasonable rate and ensure steady business

and...

Actually I don't even have to get into how modern American society and business models turn that on its head. All I have to do is point out that it's what China and every other industrializing nation has been busy doing, though often pushed to extreme, and is why they're getting all the business. Because that works. And this fluffy, "living beyond your means and expecting everyone else to pay for it" thing does not.

That's what I was thinking, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it.


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## roox911 (May 28, 2008)

Manicmtbr said:


> Not to be Mr. Obvious, but did you place a down payment with Doug? It is my understanding that this is how the process starts, but it is not communicated clearly. From what I have read here, until you place a deposit, the process has not started yet.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the long wait. I think a refund request would not be out of line for you. I recently placed a down payment with Doug, based on his low low price and I expect to wait a long time, but geez, a year is a really, really long time. I was told at least 16 weeks, which I know will turn into a much longer wait. If I approach 9 months, I am going to ask for a refund I think. You have a lot of patience.
> 
> ...


Yup, deposit was given via credit card 1 year ago today. on a positive note, i did receive a short email from him today, he was out of town for the last few weeks by the looks of it. I am supposedly in the "current" build group, so I assume that means i'm close to the end. Didnt really answer my questions on why this is taking so long, and why people that placed orders months after me are already riding, but it looks like it might signify the end is approaching! About a month ago I almost canceled my order, but after emailing another builder i was told 3 months wait from then... And i envisioned having a few extra months tacked on (once bitten...). I'll keep people updated on how the process goes from here, hopefully there are no more delays and I'll be riding by july'ish.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Ha ha..*

Curtslo.....

-Schmitty-


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## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

roox911 said:


> Yup, deposit was given via credit card 1 year ago today. on a positive note, i did receive a short email from him today, he was out of town for the last few weeks by the looks of it. I am supposedly in the "current" build group, so I assume that means i'm close to the end. Didnt really answer my questions on why this is taking so long, and why people that placed orders months after me are already riding, but it looks like it might signify the end is approaching! About a month ago I almost canceled my order, but after emailing another builder i was told 3 months wait from then... And i envisioned having a few extra months tacked on (once bitten...). I'll keep people updated on how the process goes from here, hopefully there are no more delays and I'll be riding by july'ish.


Was he out of town for the last year?

People, you have to be realistic. If he's got your money, no communication, no start date, progress, nothing, it's called theft.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Somewhere between walmart and the personalized willy wonka factory tour lies the ultimate customer experience.  

Yes a 8-12+ month wait sucks, especially when the initial info suggests much less. But does it suck less than riding a production bike that doesn't fit, doesn't have tire clearance, too steep/slack, or has some other detail that totally bugs the owner?

I know for me, after much research I came to the conclusion that there simply was not a production steel hardtail frame on the market I would be %100 stoked to own. Many come so close, but none were quite %100. Thats why I sold my dekerf's. So, the options were a curtlo at $900 with a 9-12 month wait, or another custom brand at a 3-4 month wait and ~%50 higher cost. 

Still waiting and still stoked. Once the wait is over, you don't seem to find many unhappy curtlo owners. Sh*t, it took me 25-30 years to find a woman I really liked, would I settle for less just for instant gratification? hell no.

There's always access and sette if you need something cheap to get you through the wait.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm confused. Either you were celebate for 25 years, or your 'woman you really like' made you wait a _very_ long time for da booty.

Or are you 'Still waiting and still stoked'?

It's all very confusing.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Thylacine said:


> It's all very confusing.


Is it? Sorry about that. 



FM said:


> There's always access and sette if you need something cheap to get you through the wait.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

*Update: Stoked.*

Received my Curtlo frame today.
It's only about 1/2 built, but already I can say it was absolutely worth the wait for me- even though I was really starting to wonder towards the end.
Doug nailed every feature I specifically requested, and threw in a few nice surprise touches as well.

Here's a teaser from the unpainted photos Doug sent last week.
I'll post a review in the AM forum after I get a few rides on it.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

FM said:


> Received my Curtlo frame today.
> It's only about 1/2 built, but already I can say it was absolutely worth the wait for me- even though I was really starting to wonder towards the end.
> Doug nailed every feature I specifically requested, and threw in a few nice surprise touches as well.
> 
> ...


I gotta see more of that.


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

FM said:


> Received my Curtlo frame today.
> It's only about 1/2 built, but already I can say it was absolutely worth the wait for me- even though I was really starting to wonder towards the end.
> Doug nailed every feature I specifically requested, and threw in a few nice surprise touches as well.
> 
> ...


Looks interesting 

Please post final geometry too. Referencing headset, fork length, tires... corrected for gravity and the earths wobble please. Maybe some comments on how the bike responds to various fork lengths. Thanks. Oh, and if it's wildly better than the infamous TransAm!


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

All Mountain said:


> Please post final geometry too. Thanks. Oh, and if it's wildly better than the infamous TransAm!


received it saturday, built it up saturday night, rode it sunday.
Will be putting about 3500' up & down on it tomorrow night.
Then thursday I'm off for a weekend riding trip where it will see 5-7k' downhills.
So.... putting off the review for a few days 

vs. the transam, this frame probably has more in common with the chromag samurai or cotic bfe. Regardless, I am really stoked I went custom and got exactly what I wanted. Curtlo exceeded my expectations on this, absolutely worth the wait.


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## bigtymerider (Oct 4, 2008)

*no pic yet*

lets see those pictures.


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## ssumo (Mar 4, 2004)

FM said:


> received it saturday, built it up saturday night, rode it sunday.
> Will be putting about 3500' up & down on it tomorrow night.
> Then thursday I'm off for a weekend riding trip where it will see 5-7k' downhills.
> So.... putting off the review for a few days
> ...


Does your Curtlo happen to be "Tonka" darkish yellow in color? I saw a B!TCH!N freeride looking one with a long travel fork and big rotors on my way home yesterday on I90 traveling east from Seattle. Was following someone from Mercer Island to my exit in Issaquah. Sweet ride whoever owns it.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

ssumo said:


> Does your Curtlo happen to be "Tonka" darkish yellow in color? I saw a B!TCH!N freeride looking one with a long travel fork and big rotors on my way home yesterday on I90 traveling east from Seattle. Was following someone from Mercer Island to my exit in Issaquah. Sweet ride whoever owns it.


Yep, that was me  
Glad you dug the bike. Was on my way to ride, we did 3100' up & down, the curtlo is incredible. I seem to be descending more confidently than on my 6x6" bike, which is a pleasant surprise.


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

Oh come on! You gotta' give us more than that!

The idea of a short, low, slack built Ventana rear-ended Curtlo has me salivating.



FM said:


> Received my Curtlo frame today.
> It's only about 1/2 built, but already I can say it was absolutely worth the wait for me- even though I was really starting to wonder towards the end.
> Doug nailed every feature I specifically requested, and threw in a few nice surprise touches as well.
> 
> ...


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

scrublover said:


> Oh come on! You gotta' give us more than that!
> 
> The idea of a short, low, slack built Ventana rear-ended Curtlo has me salivating.


Like this? 74*ST, 68* HT, 5/6" CCDB rear,(plus a longer TT for my dragging knuckles) built specifically for D'ville, Ashland 12 mile Super D type riding/races

Edit: Two more pics


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## Pinchphlat (Feb 27, 2009)

Wow FM, that sounds like quite a bike you have acquired! So c'mon, we need some pics so we can drool over it! :thumbsup: 

It is now 4 months since I got my curtlo 29er Epic Mountaineer, and all I can say is that Doug is pretty awesome when it comes to bike building - it keeps on performing on all of the X-country work that I throw at it. In Canberra (Australia) we certainly have some challenging X-country trails, and the bike hasn't let me down yet.

Definitely worth the 7-month waiting period (that was my experience) - you get a quality product from Doug  I hope roox911 gets the bikes soon - I have to say that 12 months is a very long wait by any measure...


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## scrublover (Dec 30, 2003)

Vader said:


> Like this? 74*ST, 68* HT, 5/6" CCDB rear,(plus a longer TT for my dragging knuckles) built specifically for D'ville, Ashland 12 mile Super D type riding/races


Yep! I'd probably do another degree slacker on the HTA, but otherwise, that is pretty much it! Built around a Pike. I certainly don't need it, but the idea certainly has much appeal.

C'mon FM, quit teasing us and get some more pics and ride report stuff up!


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## Hollis (Dec 19, 2003)

I'd settle for a blurry cellphone pic


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Nice bike, Vader. I like that it's covered in dirt, the way it should be. Every Curtlo that I've seen around here looked well-ridden.


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

I remember Curtlo getting the one of the first easton sets as did Bradbury and Yeti (where I worked) so he has been doing this a really long time. I have developed some bad customer service habbits over the years that I will share with you. 
(1) a potential customer calls and wants me to explain why my my version of his "dream" would be better than another builders version. I don't return the call or email. I just can't do it.
(2) a deal gets started, there are some delays and momentum is lost. I simply "let it go" and keep sidestepping it till someone squeeks, screams or complains, I quickly send their money back or get the job done. 

(3) sometimes don't get stuff done fast enough. I am not easly satisfied. If I can't come up with something I like, I wait for the "spirit to strike" , I usually only take jobs that others can't or won't do. I don't always have an answer right away, hopefully there is time. 

What I do well?, just get back to the customers quickly with the truth. I don't allow myself to be badgered or "forced" into an unrealistic resolution. I always do the best on a project that I can. I can't satisfy everyone but I do try to "weed out" jobs that don't suit me early on. 


I also do a lot of other projects. My shop is about 6000' and I have three Bridgeports just for bikes.


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## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

scrublover said:


> C'mon FM, quit teasing us and get some more pics and ride report stuff up!


Posted over in the all mountain forum.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Here's some Curtlo destruction. Thread with a video is here. Doug says it's repairable so it's being shipped out tomorrow.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=5924672#poststop


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## BeatAFool (Jan 14, 2008)

> The good news is that the frame can be repaired. Doug is going to replace the down, head, and top tube for $150. New paint is another $100.


$150 WOW!!


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Damn, dude. I'm glad that you're alright.

I saw a Curtlo similar to mine on the trail last night. Very nice.


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## roox911 (May 28, 2008)

figured i would update my complaint from 8 months ago. Frames finally came in about a month and a 1/2 ago, just finishing the build now.  Total time from purchase date... about 20 months. 

The frames look great, should fit us pretty much perfectly, and will be our last MTB frames for a good long while. Towards the end of the wait Doug called me and we had a great chat, very nice guy, as he always was on the phone. 

Would I do it again? Don't think so, I would rather spend the extra $ on a quicker turnaround and better communication. If I could get a firm date (if there is such a thing) then I could be convinced.


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

Most will tell you here that this is part of the "privilege" of going with a custom builder. 20 months.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Ride the bike first! Then tell us if it was worth the wait.


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## Jaybo (Mar 5, 2008)

*No mercy*



Walt said:


> I spend about 1/3 of my time in the shop. The other 2/3 is website, email, phone, powdercoat deliveries, FedEx, taxes, insurance, ordering supplies, etc, etc.
> 
> Building the frames is the easy part, in terms of effort.
> 
> ...


I'm a State social worker and I have people hanging off me like I'm a life vest. I would love to talk to people about biking stuff and dealing with logistics. Please, gawd, give me some empathy. .


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## Robert Pinder (May 12, 2015)

Ordered my custom road travel frame Jan 2014, received it March 2015 - fortunately I have lots of other bikes - it was well worth the wait!


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Walt said:


> I'm generally kinda middle of the pack as far as speed goes, and I probably do 60 a year. Admittedly there are also probably 50-60 forks in there too, but even if I just concentrated on frames, I doubt I could crack 70 working normal hours.
> 
> Steve, who is a very good fillet guy, and works hard, does _30_.
> 
> ...


Walt has a very good point here , for a 1-2 man shop 50 -100 frames is doable . 1000 is crazy talk and if you think about the numbers over a long term then really who is buying these frames and why is it then we don't see 3-4 riding down each of our respected blocks each week like say we did in the 80's when GT or Schwinn was producing #'s like that here in the US . Just a observation , carry on .


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