# COVID Vaccine updates



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We’re starting to vaccinate the Tier Two folks, >70yo, I volunteered for a shot clinic this weekend, 1200 shots available.

I got my second shot today, feeling great, two weeks from now I’ll be unleashing my super powers!

ie we’re going to eat inside a restaurant 😆


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

That's great news . We completed our second round of vaccines on my units for the veterans on January 12.

This photo of Mr B a veteran on my unit, just 2 weeks shy of his 108th birthday (January 26) , he is receiving his second Covid vaccination. I am very proud of our team providing exemplary care for Mr B and our unit veterans (who all received their second dose). The average age of veterans on my 2 units is 97 and they all consented to receive the vaccine.










I can't outshine a 108 year old veteran from getting his second Covid-19 vaccination... but I got my second dose of vaccine on January 13. I did not have any side effects (except a sore arm) although a couple of my staff reported headache and malaise which subsided in 24 hours. I'm feeling good and hopefully contributing to protecting others who are vulnerable. Science prevails


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> I got my second shot today, feeling great, two weeks from now I'll be unleashing my super powers!
> 
> ie we're going to eat inside a restaurant ?


From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.

If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

My ex wife got it today:

"I got it yesterday morning. My arm has been killing Me worse and worse all day. By about midday my joints started to hurt. Now I have chills and feel like I have a fever despite the thermometer saying 98.6"


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm in Colorado, and we began vaccinating 70+ several weeks ago. I work for a healthcare system so I've had both my shots as well. Pretty sore arm both shots (Pfizer). I had a slight headache first shot, but not sure if that was related or not. Some have had a pretty rough go with the second shot, about 1 in 5 from what I've heard.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Colo Springs E said:


> I'm in Colorado, and we began vaccinating 70+ several weeks ago. I work for a healthcare system so I've had both my shots as well. Pretty sore arm both shots (Pfizer). I had a slight headache first shot, but not sure if that was related or not. Some have had a pretty rough go with the second shot, about 1 in 5 from what I've heard.


I only had a sore deltoid muscle for 24 hr after my second dose

Out of the 400+ veterans over age 89 that were vaccinated (with Pfizer) at my hospital only 3 had any side effects (joint pain and fever) More staff c/o reaction (average age 40-50)


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

walkerwalker said:


> From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.
> 
> If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


Despite being vaccinated, all front line staff at our facility are require to continue to have a weekly covid test. A negative test will lead to 2 weeks being quarantined (vaccinated or not) We wear full PPE and will continue this practice indefinitely.

Our province (Ontario ) is still in lockdown ... since December 26. We are mandated to wear masks in any building/workplace that remains open , practice social distancing. Things appear to be improving. We are seeing a gradual decrease in province wide cases. The regions hardest hit are the most densely populated and places of work. Our hospital continues to have a dozen or more cases in ICU and a full infirmary unit with active cases

The lockdown is working and the place of greatest transmission is workplaces


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Wife and I are scheduled for our first vaccine on Monday. We will see if the expected shipment of the vaccine actually arrived. 

On a side note, it took me 23 days of skiing so far to finally figure out how to wear my mask, glasses and goggles while skiing and not have them fog up. Little things like that are a big accomplishment this season.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

walkerwalker said:


> From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.
> 
> If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


It's the same with most vaccinations, so if you previously stayed inside, took the flu vaccine, and wore a mask during flu season, sure, that makes sense.

It's your comfort level that matters most to you, so do what you feel is right.

if a vaccinated person were to acquire the virus, they woul not get sick or they would have reduced symptoms, which means reduced viral load.

Kerp in mind that even with 80% immunity (that's the current level needed to remove all precautions), this virus is here to stay.

At work we're gonna wearing masks for a while longer ....

As medical providers, our exposure is quite high, not unlike any community acquired illness. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't gotten sick; I have been pretty careful ?

PS: let's keep this thread non confrontational so it doesn't get closed by admin.

My suggestion is to only make one response to a post you disagree with, then let it go.

There are many ways to slice an apple ...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

My shot is scheduled for Feb 10th; my 2 kids got their initial round because they work in grocery stores.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

walkerwalker said:


> From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.
> 
> If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


Keeping my eye on the news coming out of Israel. They bought a lot of vaccine up front and already have 19% of their population vaccinated. This is greater than any other country to my knowledge? Here in Oregon they're proposing stretching out the second dose as this would allow more people to receive the first round of vaccination. The prevailing wisdom being that the first dose still provides something like 80 to 90% efficacy. Yet, in Israel, they're in part explaining the continued infection rate among the vaccinated to not having received their second dose. There's a lot of competing information out there.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I'm an essential employee and in the current round here in New Mexico. I can't wait for the day when I can get mine. My girlfriend is a health care worker and obviously I was very concerned she would bring the virus home. Since I can't telework, I can only hope they get to my group as soon as possible (there are subgroups within a phase).


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> My ex wife got it today:
> 
> "I got it yesterday morning. My arm has been killing Me worse and worse all day. By about midday my joints started to hurt. Now I have chills and feel like I have a fever despite the thermometer saying 98.6"


Update this morning:

"Well, at least it was short lived. I feel totally normal this morning. My arm still hurts but not like it did."


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## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm not getting it. That is my update, carry on!


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## John232629 (Oct 11, 2005)

walkerwalker said:


> From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.
> 
> If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


Not exactly accurate. The studies were run with A endpoint evaluation of symptomatic / severe cases. We don't have the data yet (or at-least access to the data as gen pop) to say if it keeps you from getting/spreading it. So we're instructed to continue with the precautions in places until more is known. Hopefully we'll have more data by summer to understand the risk of asymptomatic disease after vaccination.

good op-ed read: Op-Ed: Throw Away Your Mask After COVID Vaccination?
and counter point: Op-Ed: Now Is Not the Time to Relax COVID Restrictions

FYI, i'm front line ED based NP, 2 weeks out after 2nd pfizer. 7 hours after 2nd shot I had notable body aches and difficulty sleeping, but was fine enough by morning the 2nd day. Both shots had me with a sore arm...same as with Tdap or flu shot. I continue to utilize my PAPR with all patients I see in the ED and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

My coworker got his last Friday with no side effects. I have zero interest in getting mine in the near future, but maybe sometime in the summer at the earliest.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> Keeping my eye on the news coming out of Israel. They bought a lot of vaccine up front and already have 19% of their population vaccinated. This is greater than any other country to my knowledge? Here in Oregon they're proposing stretching out the second dose as this would allow more people to receive the first round of vaccination. The prevailing wisdom being that the first dose still provides something like 80 to 90% efficacy. Yet, in Israel, they're in part explaining the continued infection rate among the vaccinated to not having received their second dose. There's a lot of competing information out there.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


One dose of the two dose vaccine provides about 50% response rate, but that's really not an accurate way to look at the vaccine, it's is not like applying a patch to a leak.

The vaccine provokes an immune response without causing the illness, so one shot might not provoke a substantial response, hence the second dose.

for example:

~ 50% of the folks who receive the first dose of a two part vaccine will have an adequate immune response.

~95% of the folks who receive two doses of a two part vaccine will have an adequate immune response.

Having an adequate" response means your body will not allow the virus to spread as quickly or as broadly because your immune system already knows the virus and is prepared to respond.

Vaccination does not prevent illness, it reduces the degree of illness and reduces the risk of serious illness,

Some vaccines have a longer life, Tetanus lasts ~ ten years, MMR lasts for life, but the flu vaccine lasts ~ six months. Titers can be used to measure immune response, which is how MMR revaccination is determined.

There is a single dose vaccine in trials that may be available in March. Keep in mind that many vaccines are given in multiple doses, so one shot is not always better, though it is easier ?


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

walkerwalker said:


> From what I've read, the vaccine will not keep you from catching the virus, nor will it prevent you from spreading it. It will only reduce your chances of getting severely ill. Therefore, until a minimum of 70% of the population have been given the vaccine, you should not go eat inside at a restaurant. You should still wear your mask and socially distance, even if you've had the vaccine.
> 
> If this is incorrect, please direct me to a good scientific source that supports the contrary. Since there is still very little understanding of sars-cov-2 and the efficacy of vaccines, and much of the reporting is contradictory, it's difficult to know what to believe. However, if the vaccine does not stop transmission, it is very very important people know that. I'm surprised there has not been more effort to disseminate that fact.


This is not correct.

The vaccine prevents the vast majority of people from the infection caused by the virus. Interpret that however you must. The Pfizer vaccine was 100% effective at preventing severe COVID-19 infection in its clinical trial, but that is just one statistic, not the only preventative effect the vaccine has. Both have been highly effective at completely preventing the infection.

Even after 70% of the public has the vaccine, we still may need to wear masks and social distance; the reason for that is in the next paragraph. It's not like herd immunity is some magic threshold. The hope is that the vaccine will bend the curve down substantially and protect our hospital resources. Herd immunity is not a black or white thing that is automatically achieved at 70% vaccination. I am hoping we have substantial effects from herd immunity far below that. There's also no guarantee, given the nonsense propaganda going around, that 70% of our population will ever be vaccinated.

The distinction you're talking about is called "immunity" versus "sterilizing immunity." Studies show that the vaccines confer "immunity," in that the overwhelming majority of those vaccinated do not contract the infection. It remains unstudied and unknown as to whether the immunity is so-called "sterilizing immunity," which would also prevent vaccinated people from infecting people who were not vaccinated by being asymptomatic carriers of the virus. I have read many perspectives on this, and many experts believe there is a strong reason to believe that these vaccines DO confer sterilizing immunity. The reason you are seeing such strong words of caution is that nobody really knows for sure because the studies are yet incomplete and contact tracing is hard. So we don't know for sure, but if the vaccines do confer sterilizing immunity, and we can be sure of that, the experts will tell us that we can let our guard down completely and go back to normal. The sources you're reading saying that the vaccine does not "stop transmission" are based on the same lack of knowledge. Nobody knows for sure. I wish they'd be more hopeful, but I understand why they think telling us to still take caution is the best decision. The reality is that no person who is vaccinated worries about giving measles or polio or tetanus to anyone else. There's a strong reason to believe these vaccines are the same way, from a theoretical perspective. But until someone has clinical data, they are unwilling to say that. The reason there hasn't been "more effort" is because until they have the data, even if they have a theoretical basis for telling us this, they're not going to say anything other than be careful until they know.

If you re-read whatever sources of information you've been reading, this will all make sense.

Edit:

This post hasn't held up very well, which is a good thing. We now know the vaccines are highly effective at preventing a person from transmitting the virus to others. About half of the people who got COVID-19 after being vaccinated were asymtomatic. The numbers vary, but the ability to not only prevent the vaccinated person from being infected, but also to prevent them from spreading anything to others, appears to be very, very strong.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Nurse Ben, thanks for the statistics, I like hearing from the frontline healthcare workers. John, thanks for those links, they are interesting reads. My takeaway was that while the vaccine will not eliminate the possibility of acquiring and subsequently transmitting the virus, since the immune response is hastened you'd be transmissible for less time. Further, the vaccine will reduce the total viral load, which would also reduce the potential for transmission. Therefore the one MD who is arguing for reduced masking after being vaccinated was referring to situations that already have minimal risk, like having a meal at home with a small group of other vaccinated people. Which I agree, the risk would be very small in that case. 

My concern allies with the other MD who argued for keeping the masking protocol after vaccination. Which is that in public, you'd have no way of knowing if someone without a mask is vaccinated or just an anti-masker. It would just cause additional confrontation, and the careless folks would have an alibi for being careless. Even if you, being vaccinated, are not likely to develop severe symptoms, the unvaccinated people you come in contact with could. And right now that is 80 to 90% of the population is still vulnerable. So it comes down to what I believe has been the point all along, are you concerned just about your own health, or also the health of others, and the population at large? Once the CDC or other authority can confidently say a large majority of the general population has been vaccinated, those concerns would be mitigated. 

I'm being long winded, but my point is that I've already seen many people assuming that once they are vaccinated they will be able to go to bars, concerts, grocery store, etc maskless and have complete immunity. I'm dismayed that the effort to dispel such misinformation isn't more aggressive.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

walkerwalker said:


> I'm being long winded, but my point is that I've already seen many people assuming that once they are vaccinated they will be able to go to bars, concerts, grocery store, etc maskless and have complete immunity. I'm dismayed that the effort to dispel such misinformation isn't more aggressive.


Because they might be right. And don't you hope they are?


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

@twodownzero well said. immunity vs sterilizing immunity is a new term for me. I suppose everyone reacts to "we don't know yet" in their own way. Some fall on the side of caution, some don't. Personally, I don't understand the folks who choose to be extraordinarily reckless until we know for sure. (not saying that is anyone here). I'd rather be cautious until we know for sure, and as you say the authorities prefer the wording of caution.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

The definition of recklessness is knowing there is an extreme risk and taking it anyway. Calling them reckless is, in a word, wrong. Maybe they should be more careful, but to say that they know otherwise is not true; nobody knows.

All common vaccines we take provide sterilizing immunity. I hope this one does, too. I also think the public is tired enough of the restrictions that trying to enforce mask mandates after the vaccines are available to the general public is going to be impossible. In my state, it's impossible now as it is. Instead of telling people to take precaution with no evidence it's necessary, I hope we can have some more optimistic policy going forward. Call it wishful thinking if you like. I don't think it's unreasonable to think this vaccine is just like every other one in that respect. The caveat is that it uses entirely new technology.

I can say this: if these vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, we are all screwed. The public won't hold on much longer.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Huge thanks to all of the front line workers who have bravely and selflessly put their own health and the health of their families on the line for the rest of us. I'm glad they are first in line for the vaccine. I should be in the next phase (hoping February) and I'm signed up and ready. It will be interesting to see how this changes behaviors long-term.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The vaccination rates for flu are ~50%, the fear and complications surrounding the Covid-19 vaccine will probably keep vaccination rates low, so anticipate 40-50% at best, which is a long way from the 80% needed for “herd immunity”.

Truly, the vaccine will help reduce infection rates and hopefully prevent the medical system from being overwhelmed, but the vaccine is not a “cure”.

Once the vaccine is more readily available, you should expect to see some “vaccine passports” utilized in high risk scenarios like flying and in the schools.

Fun times ahead!

Wear your masks!!

PS, the second shot may make you feel worse than the first shot ... that’s how allergic responses work, each exposure leads to a more severe response.

My first shot was no big deal, no fatigue, some minor shoulder pain. My second shot was accompanied by some fatigue, headache, joint pain, and serious shoulder pain.

The vaccine is well worth the discomfort and hassle, my anxiety about getting the virus is so much lower now, what a relief!


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## LC17SMP (Dec 27, 2016)

No vaccine, No mask, amusement parks, restaurants, bars, mtbing, birthday party’s, Thanksgiving, Christmas with family and friends, etc. Been living life just like I always have. Haven’t spent 1 day or night with COVID anxiety. I wonder how many years in life expectancy I didn’t loose to stress from all this COVID stuff. What’s next COVID 20, 21, 22? Endless shut downs? Not worried about it. 

Live life people!


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## Galeforce5 (Jun 7, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Keeping my eye on the news coming out of Israel. They bought a lot of vaccine up front and already have 19% of their population vaccinated. This is greater than any other country to my knowledge? Here in Oregon they're proposing stretching out the second dose as this would allow more people to receive the first round of vaccination. The prevailing wisdom being that the first dose still provides something like 80 to 90% efficacy. Yet, in Israel, they're in part explaining the continued infection rate among the vaccinated to not having received their second dose. There's a lot of competing information out there.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


I live in Israel, so I will shed some light on the situation. First, we are way past 19% for the first vaccination, closer to 40%. Starting next week, everyone that wants to get vaccinated will be vaccinated from ages 16 and up. The reasons for the high rates of vaccination, not necessarily in order: 1. Israel is paying more than anyone else for vaccines; 2. It is a small country, so logistically, getting the vaccine out to the public is easier; 3. Every person by law is a member of a "Kupat Cholim"-think HMO, and your medical info. is all online, easily accessible by you, health care providers, hospitals, etc., and they can contact you easily by phone, sms, web, app., etc. For example, I scheduled my first vaccination online. As soon as scheduled, I got an sms confirming the first and scheduling the second vaccination, 4. We are used to being on an emergency footing, and people here know what to do in the event of a crisis, it's part of life here. As for the increasing numbers of sick people, there are a few explanations, all logical. First, there are segments of the population that continue to flaunt the rules against congregating. Second, some segments of the population refuse to get vaccinated as a result of being fed false information, Third, the government has been lax in enforcing quarantine for overseas arrivals, meaning that they are required to be in quarantine, but the enforcement is lacking. We should be at 70% plus vaccinated by the end of March, and 90% or more by the end of June.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

LC17SMP said:


> No vaccine, No mask, amusement parks, restaurants, bars, mtbing, birthday party's, Thanksgiving, Christmas with family and friends, etc. Been living life just like I always have. Haven't spent 1 day or night with COVID anxiety. I wonder how many years in life expectancy I didn't loose to stress from all this COVID stuff. What's next COVID 20, 21, 22? Endless shut downs? Not worried about it.
> 
> Live life people!


Wow, that is so pathetic. Soon 1/2 million Americans will be dead and the healthcare workers completely overwhelmed and exhausted because attitudes like this.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

serious said:


> Wow, that is so pathetic. Soon 1/2 million Americans will be dead and the healthcare workers completely overwhelmed and exhausted because attitudes like this.





serious said:


> Wow, that is so pathetic. Soon 1/2 million Americans will be dead and the healthcare workers completely overwhelmed and exhausted because attitudes like this.


I work in an ED and we are not overwhelmed and the death rate is not factual, but keep believing what you want. There has been zero increase in the US population death rate for 2020. The same people that are dying from COVID would more then likely have also died from the flu.


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## John232629 (Oct 11, 2005)

Arm&Hammer said:


> I work in an ED and we are not overwhelmed and the death rate is not factual, but keep believing what you want. There has been zero increase in the US population death rate for 2020. The same people that are dying from COVID would more then likely have also died from the flu.


Lucky. We ran an 8 hour wait for people who need supplemental O2 at our shop last week when I was PIT. I had to remind nursing staff to change out the tanks every couple hours.


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## pctloper (Jan 3, 2016)

I have an appointment at Stanford next Wednesday---looking forward to this at 66----Appointments and supply are still issues but seems most Bay Area outfits are now taking folks over 65----Kaiser--Standford for sure


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

Arm&Hammer said:


> I work in an ED and we are not overwhelmed and the death rate is not factual, but keep believing what you want. There has been zero increase in the US population death rate for 2020. The same people that are dying from COVID would more then likely have also died from the flu.


No wonder America has the worst covid response in the world. Way too many idiots, living in some alternate reality. Get educated and stop propagating this idiocy.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Arm&Hammer said:


> I work in an ED and we are not overwhelmed and the death rate is not factual, but keep believing what you want. There has been zero increase in the US population death rate for 2020. The same people that are dying from COVID would more then likely have also died from the flu.


Must be fun living in an alternate reality. My girlfriend comes home looking trauma-affected like she was beaten or worse from every 12 hour shift and her thirty-something colleague is in the hospital dying despite having zero comorbitities before this. You're living in a delusional dream world not supported by anything other than your own delusions.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> The vaccination rates for flu are ~50%, the fear and complications surrounding the Covid-19 vaccine will probably keep vaccination rates low, so anticipate 40-50% at best, which is a long way from the 80% needed for "herd immunity".


A flu shot is not a vaccine and you should stop using that word to describe it. A flu shot is, at best, a guess. A real vaccine is not a guess and nothing else that we call a "vaccine" is even close in efficacy to the flu shot.

I got my flu shot this year and last year, and I'm happy to do it. But to suggest that a real vaccine and a flu shot are even comparable is a mistake, and doing so is part of the reason the general public is so ignorant about the actual statistics about real vaccines.


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## LC17SMP (Dec 27, 2016)

Oh no. Somebody posted a chart and someone else’s girlfriend is worn out from having to pay all the bills because he rides mtb all day. I better stay at home and start wearing a mask. 

I laugh when someone looks at me twice in the grocery store for not wearing a mask. Everyone is touching their mask, itching their face, coughing, touching products, using payment machines that everyone touches and then bringing the contaminated products home so everyone in the home can be contaminated. COVID can live up to 3 days on some materials (plastic) study’s suggest. Thinking we can stop COVID is pure delusional fantasyland. And for you in delusional fantasyland the goal was never to stop COVID but to keep it from overwhelming local hospitals. The real experts know it’s far to widespread to stop. Vaccine companies and their shareholders don’t want herd immunity, they want herd vaccinations. Bill Gates to save the day. Lol. He can’t fix the viruses at his day job. 

Common sense isn’t so common these days.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

2sharp7 said:


> I'm not getting it. That is my update, carry on!


Why not if you don't mind my asking?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I think folks are not following


twodownzero said:


> A flu shot is not a vaccine and you should stop using that word to describe it. A flu shot is, at best, a guess. A real vaccine is not a guess and nothing else that we call a "vaccine" is even close in efficacy to the flu shot.
> 
> I got my flu shot this year and last year, and I'm happy to do it. But to suggest that a real vaccine and a flu shot are even comparable is a mistake, and doing so is part of the reason the general public is so ignorant about the actual statistics about real vaccines.


A medication is not called a vaccine because of it's success rate, but because of what it does in the body.

Some vaccines are better than others, the "guess" is not about whether a vaccine will work, but whether the virus that ultimately comes to America is the one they correctly predict.

Many viruses mutate over time, and vaccines don't always promote a permanent change in our immune response, so reimmunization is often necessary.

Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding about medicine. Since there is also a lot of misinformation, it becomes much more important to trust your medical provider.

Folks are starting to post contrary to MTBR rules, if it gets too hostile this thread will be closed..

Please try to post responsibly.

Thanks


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

LC17SMP said:


> Oh no. Somebody posted a chart and someone else's girlfriend is worn out from having to pay all the bills because he rides mtb all day. I better stay at home and start wearing a mask.
> 
> I laugh when someone looks at me twice in the grocery store for not wearing a mask. Everyone is touching their mask, itching their face, coughing, touching products, using payment machines that everyone touches and then bringing the contaminated products home so everyone in the home can be contaminated. COVID can live up to 3 days on some materials (plastic) study's suggest. Thinking we can stop COVID is pure delusional fantasyland. And for you in delusional fantasyland the goal was never to stop COVID but to keep it from overwhelming local hospitals. The real experts know it's far to widespread to stop. Vaccine companies and their shareholders don't want herd immunity, they want herd vaccinations. Bill Gates to save the day. Lol. He can't fix the viruses at his day job.
> 
> Common sense isn't so common these days.


Yet you're still talking about surfaces when it was widely publicized a LONG time ago that surfaces are not vectors. Meanwhile, mass scale metastudies with samples of over 25,000 people show an 80+% reduction in transmission from masks and yet you're still a denier. Maybe the truth just doesn't matter to you. And my local hospitals _were _overwhelmed for about 3 months and made national and international news.

The sad part about all of this has been me seeing who cares about their fellow man and who doesn't. I had no idea my friends were so selfish. When this is all over, my social circle will be smaller. I can understand a genuine debate about the science. But to remain ignorant and take risks with the lives of your fellow men for no reason is despicable.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> A medication is not called a vaccine because of it's success rate, but because of what it does in the body.
> 
> Some vaccines are better than others, the "guess" is not about whether a vaccine will work, but whether the virus that ultimately comes to America is the one they correctly predict.
> 
> ...


Influenza is unique because nobody knows what this season's influenza will look like. A flu shot is not a vaccine. Calling a flu shot a vaccine just adds to the misinformation and nonsense that sadly exists in our public discourse on the topic. The smallpox vaccine eradicated the disease from the earth. The polio, measles, etc, vaccines are so effective that practically nobody in the civilized world outside of people with anti-vax parents have to worry about getting the disease. The same is simply not true about influenza. I suggest that we should use a different word to describe flu shots because they're far less effective than the medicines we commonly call "vaccines."

Further, it is similarly not very persuasive to say to "trust your medical provider." Medicine is not really science. It's a loosely science-based set of traditions that predate the idea we call "science" today. Science has ancient origins, but the modern philosophy of science, e.g., the empirical rule, scientific method, etc., is a product of the 18th Century. Medicine far predates that, and even after modern science became a thing, physicians were still bleeding people. It wasn't until probably the mid 1800s, e.g., the germ theory of disease, that science really had an influence on medicine. All of this to say that medical providers are not infectious disease specialists. They may choose to stay current, especially in the current climate, but there are plenty of medical providers out there who don't stay on the cutting edge of scientific research, because they are too busy saving lives to do so. There's nothing wrong with that, but suggesting that clinical anything is similar to lab science is simply not accurate, not for medicine and not for any other field of which I am aware, either, and especially not for a novel illness. That's not to say that your medical provider is no good or malicious, but to expect him or her to be up to speed on something like this when he or she is busy in the trenches is asking a lot. Being an "expert" myself, I hate to feed the death of expertise. But I place far more weight on the opinions of actual researchers than your average medical provider, although living with one, I'm glad she brings things to my attention that are worthy of looking into--which is especially hard to do with a novel illness.


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## LC17SMP (Dec 27, 2016)

Two, That’s just it. You can’t understand a genuine debate about the science. The only debate you will have is on your terms with your scientist and your facts. I guarantee you take risks with others lives regularly. Answer you phone/text while driving? Ride to fast on a trail that could lead to a collision? Married? If not are you having/had sex with different partners? Drive a car? Why is that an acceptable risk? You don’t have to drive. I could go on and on. I’m sure under a microscope we are all needlessly endangering others. I’d still be your friend and have friends that think like you. What is right for me may not be right for you. That’s America. The freedom of speech. The freedom to get or not get the vaccine. The freedom to stay home if needed for you health. Maybe I’ll see you on the trail sometime. I’ll be the guy without a mask. 😉


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Crankout said:


> Why not if you don't mind my asking?


My 2 cents
I already had it, it amounted to a 2 day mild head cold. 2 days being a little tired and 4 days with a slight dry cough. Anyone with a halfway functioning immune system that is not deficient in the hormone they call Vitamin-D can easily fight it off. Close to 90% of those getting severely ill and dying are D3 deficient. 80% of the US is D3 deficient, 50% are magnesium deficient (activates D3), 45% are obese (need 3x more D3) and 88% are metabolically unhealthy. Krispy Kreme donuts, Taco Bell nacho supreme and In-N-Out Burger is what is getting people severely ill and killing them. Vaccines and Big Phrama pharmaceuticals do not fix those problems, but it does put a lot of $$$ in their pockets.

There are also some serious risks associated with these emergency use/experimental vaccines and any long term side effects are still unknown. 





COVID Vaccine Landing


VAERS




www.thearkivist.net


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

LC17SMP said:


> Two, That's just it. You can't understand a genuine debate about the science. The only debate you will have is on your terms with your scientist and your facts. I guarantee you take risks with others lives regularly. Answer you phone/text while driving? Ride to fast on a trail that could lead to a collision? Married? If not are you having/had sex with different partners? Drive a car? Why is that an acceptable risk? You don't have to drive. I could go on and on. I'm sure under a microscope we are all needlessly endangering others. I'd still be your friend and have friends that think like you. What is right for me may not be right for you. That's America. The freedom of speech. The freedom to get or not get the vaccine. The freedom to stay home if needed for you health. Maybe I'll see you on the trail sometime. I'll be the guy without a mask. ?


Except this is different, because you don't know the probabilities. The risks to driving are well known and document. The risks of STDs, texting and driving, drunk driving for that matter, etc., have been well studied and documented. This is a novel illness, the effects of which are widely unknown and unpredictable. Many act as if death is the only possible consequence as young people with nothing wrong with them are dying or worse, having long term health effects of unknown duration.

It is one thing to tell someone they have assumed a risk that is known, and something vastly different to assume a bunch of unknown risks. I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime. Every risk I take, I may not calculate it specifically, but the factors of the discussion are known. This is not that situation.

What is known is that the probability of anything really terrible happening is much smaller from the vaccine than it is from the infection. All credible sources of information on the topic agree about that. That is why I cannot believe people are trying to have a genuine debate about vaccinate versus don't vaccinate. People should be literally fighting over every dose they could get their hands on. What I would be willing to pay for the vaccine if I could get it might surprise you.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

"No vaccine, No mask, amusement parks, restaurants, bars, mtbing, birthday party’s, Thanksgiving, Christmas with family and friends, etc. Been living life just like I always have. Haven’t spent 1 day or night with COVID anxiety. I wonder how many years in life expectancy I didn’t loose to stress from all this COVID stuff. What’s next COVID 20, 21, 22? Endless shut downs? Not worried about it."

"I laugh when someone looks at me twice in the grocery store for not wearing a mask. Everyone is touching their mask, itching their face, coughing, touching products, using payment machines that everyone touches and then bringing the contaminated products home so everyone in the home can be contaminated"

"Anyone with a halfway functioning immune system that is not deficient in the hormone they call Vitamin-D can easily fight it off."

I don't wear a seatbelt when driving. I laugh when I see others wearing a seatbelt. No condoms when having sex. AIDS and stds are a joke/hoax/easy to beat with the right vitamin. Susncreen is for suckers. I say just lay outside in the baking sun and use baby oil to enhance the tan. Even though others may have died from car accidents, skin cancer, and AIDS, I haven't spent a moment worrying or caring about other people. I'm sure they would have died from something else just as bad. That's just how I roll.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

serious said:


> No wonder America has the worst covid response in the world. Way too many idiots, living in some alternate reality. Get educated and stop propagating this idiocy.


Sounds like you need some education, delusional back at you.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

twodownzero said:


> What I would be willing to pay for the vaccine if I could get it might surprise you.


Ballpark, are we talking bike, car or house? I'm willing to wait because many others are, quite frankly, more deserving than I am, but once all the essential folks get theirs I'd cough up a pretty penny to get it as soon as I could thereafter. Because I'm not quite 65 I'm old enough to be screwed if I get it, but not old enough to get it anytime soon.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

LC17SMP said:


> No vaccine, No mask, amusement parks, restaurants, bars, mtbing, birthday party's, Thanksgiving, Christmas with family and friends, etc. Been living life just like I always have. Haven't spent 1 day or night with COVID anxiety. I wonder how many years in life expectancy I didn't loose to stress from all this COVID stuff. What's next COVID 20, 21, 22? Endless shut downs? Not worried about it.
> 
> Live life people!


I'm with you. I've taken multiple, multi-day mountain bike trips with 60+ year old friends in the truck for 800+ miles each way, flown to visit family in the US and have been to Mexico twice in the last 3 months. Admittedly, I do wear a mask when I go in businesses because they have it posted that you are required to wear one. Out of respect for the business owner, I do as they request. The second I clear the threshold of their doorway, the mask comes off.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You know, when I started this thread and the other thread, the idea was to pass on good news and positive vibes.

I’m really not sure what is wrong with people these days, perhaps it’s the change wrought by social media?

There was a time, not that long ago, when people were more civil and respectful toward each other.

I’d gladly give up the internet and all that goes with it, if only we could get back some of what we’ve lost.

I’m a mental health provider, and from my perspective, the world has taken a bad turn and I’m struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck and good health to you all,

The nurse has left the building.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Wife and I got our first covid vaccination yesterday (1/25) and are scheduled for the second on 2/24. 
Period.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

k2rider1964 said:


> I'm with you. I've taken multiple, multi-day mountain bike trips with 60+ year old friends in the truck for 800+ miles each way, flown to visit family in the US and have been to Mexico twice in the last 3 months. Admittedly, I do wear a mask when I go in businesses because they have it posted that you are required to wear one. Out of respect for the business owner, I do as they request. The second I clear the threshold of their doorway, the mask comes off.


The issue with this is that you can be carrying and not illin' on the outside.

I don't worry so much about myself as the health of others around me who may not be able to thwart if off.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> You know, when I started this thread and the other thread, the idea was to pass on good news and positive vibes.
> 
> I'm really not sure what is wrong with people these days, perhaps it's the change wrought by social media?
> 
> ...


Seems to be that way, but then again, we tend to hear the extremes and not the middle anymore.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

LC17SMP said:


> Where is the unity Joe promised?
> Come on serious. We are having some good civil discourse here and now your acting like a child. Your trying to get this thread locked because you can't convince others to think like you? The ability to agree to disagree and live together as one nation is what makes us American. Always has. The attitude your displaying is the cancer eating away at America.


Next time don't come back with garbage that attempts to dismiss the 420,000 deaths like they never existed. Have some respect for essential workers and first responders who have been working around the clock to take care of hospitalized people.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

wayold said:


> Ballpark, are we talking bike, car or house? I'm willing to wait because many others are, quite frankly, more deserving than I am, but once all the essential folks get theirs I'd cough up a pretty penny to get it as soon as I could thereafter. Because I'm not quite 65 I'm old enough to be screwed if I get it, but not old enough to get it anytime soon.


I'm an essential employee and I've gone to work every day. I make far less than I made before this career, which is a public service. I don't have much, but the sacrifice I'd be willing to make in order to have the vaccine is pretty high. Especially if the vaccine doesn't confer sterilizing immunity, because my girlfriend can certainly bring it home, and my coworkers are all at risk from me.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

serious said:


> Next time don't come back with garbage that attempts to dismiss the 420,000 deaths like they never existed. Have some respect for essential workers and first responders who have been working around the clock to take care of hospitalized people.


 Some people are simply selfish tw*ts, which is why America sucks sometimes.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

How long until we're yelling at each other for not wearing 3 masks at once?

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Mighty interesting









Merck Scraps COVID Vaccines; Says It’s More Effective To Get The Virus And Recover


Shots generated an 'inferior' immune system response in comparison with natural infection



summit.news





Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> Mighty interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, I just can't ignore this:

1) The Merck vaccine FAILED the trials due to poor efficacy, that is all
2) Getting COVID DOES result in some resistance to reinfection based on your antibody response
3) Getting COVID MAKES YOU SICK and can kill you or leave you disabled, but yeah, if you survive you get some benefits

Unless you are trying to be misleading, your response to this news is incredibly obtuse.

Please use your head and apply the scientific method when reviewing news.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Okay, I just can't ignore this:
> 
> 1) The Merck vaccine FAILED the trials due to poor efficacy, that is all
> 2) Getting COVID DOES result in some resistance to reinfection based on your antibody response
> ...


Give me a break dude. You responded to another post of mine in this thread stating the importance of the Pfizer BioN-tech vaccine in stopping the viruses evolution..."patching holes in a ship".There is ZERO evidence that this vaccine prevents transmission, nearly half the people in the vaccinated group of the trial got Covid. The 95% efficacy was derived from preventing severe symptoms (even though 2 in the vaccinated group in the trial did get severe symptoms).

Imo this is big news from a major drug maker that received some 350 million of tax payers dollars to produce a vaccine.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> Give me a break dude. You responded to another post of mine in this thread stating the importance of the Pfizer BioN-tech vaccine in stopping the viruses evolution..."patching holes in a ship".There is ZERO evidence that this vaccine prevents transmission, nearly half the people in the vaccinated group of the trial got Covid. The 95% efficacy was derived from preventing severe symptoms (even though 2 in the vaccinated group in the trial did get severe symptoms).
> 
> Imo this is big news from a major drug maker that received some 350 million of tax payers dollars to produce a vaccine.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


Whether a company received funding and was successful or unsuccessful in their efforts to develop a vaccine is not the issue at hand.

I'm assuming you are smart enough to know the difference, so I'm not going to argue with you.

Please don't misrepresent information, it's disingenuous and it could lead folks astray.

Do no harm.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Please don't misrepresent information, it's disingenuous and it could lead folks astray.


I'm at a loss as to where I did that or anything else you inferred too in post #57. Seems more like your interpretation given I said exactly 2 words. Anywho, harm reduction is my bag.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Got the 2nd round of Moderna last night. Body aches all day today and now a low grade fever. Hopefully gone tomorrow. I want to ride!


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

I got my second Moderna vaccine last week also and had slightly worse side affects as well. More arm tenderness which lasted longer than the first, but nothing else too serious. I little malaise, lower back ache the second day.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I ate indoors at a restaurant today, it was wierd, but it felt good.

Looking forward to getting more folks vaccinated so we can back to normalcy


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## EJC (Sep 23, 2009)

WHALENARD said:


> Mighty interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I wouldn't use the word misleading but maybe sensationalized. After seeing the article I went ahead and read what Merk posted for the press release on their web page just to make sure it was factual. I decided to post this of the two. 

Here's the thing, I've posted several source studies on these threads since fall. I tried to get anyone talking about anything contained in the 53 page document on the FDA website used for emergency approval of the Pfizer BioN-tech vaccine...nuttin. I understand, this a mountain biking site, fair enough. I figured maybe this would grab more attention than Merk's press release which was rather dry. It did. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

"Merck said in a statement posted on its website the decision to scrap the two vaccine candidates followed its review of findings from Phase 1 clinical studies. The studies showed that both candidates were generally well tolerated, but the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection with Covid-19 and those reported for other Covid-19 vaccines." NBC News

I definitely plan on getting the vaccine. I understand that these vaccines don't eliminate the possibility of contracting the virus but they do work well in preventing server cases of it. I understand they don't prevent a person from carrying the virus (obviously without them contracting it) and possibly spreading it to other people. Studies do indicate that active virus shedding from an ill person does spread more easily than passive emission. I wear my mask whenever outside of my house or my car. Period. Every single time without exception, if for no other reason then as a sign of respect towards other people. It's simple. I want the vaccine to prevent a sever case in myself and make me less of a vehicle for transporting it to others.

In the meantime, here is something funny...


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I understand that these vaccines don't eliminate the possibility of contracting the virus but they do work well in preventing server cases of it. I understand they don't prevent a person from carrying the virus (obviously without them contracting it) and possibly spreading it to other people.


For the vast majority of people, the vaccine does eliminate the possibility of contracting the virus, or more precisely, the disease associated with the virus.

There is exactly zero evidence that vaccinated people can carry the virus anywhere or transmit it to anyone else. The infectious disease people are worried and wanting to take all possible precautions, but they have zero scientific basis to tell you that a vaccinated person can infect someone else. Even they will tell you that they're still studying that and that they don't know.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Just curious; are the COVID anti-vax people also avoiding yearly flu shots?


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

I'm not clicking that link because it looks like then my laptop would need a vaccine.... but the mRNA vaccine is literally sugar, salt, fat, and acid. The unpronouncable ingredients in your frozen microwave meal and McNuggets are probably much worse.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Unfortunately, I think that at the rate that the anti-vax propaganda is spreading, it'll be a long time before we achieve anything close to herd immunity levels.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

dysfunction said:


> Unfortunately, I think that at the rate that the anti-vax propaganda is spreading, it'll be a long time before we achieve anything close to herd immunity levels.


Yup, we won't even get close, I'm predicting 40-50%, around what we see for flu vaccinations.

So the folks who get the vaccine are less likely to get sick, less likely to make others sick, and if they get sick it'll be to a lesser degree.

In my mind, this is the American way, the freedom to choose. So choose wisely or be prepared for the consequences. Once the vaccine is available to all, there will be no one to blame but yourself.

A dats point: one of our interns tested positive for COVID when she went to see her provider about sinus congestion. She had the her first vaccination three weeks ago. Other then some minor sinus congestion she is symptom free.

The benefits of vaccination or just good luck, hard to say.

I'm fully vaccinated and I'm loving it!!

I wish we could vaccinate everyone right now, but it's gonna be a minute, so be safe, be patient, come Spring we'll be opening up and the world will return to its previous state: angry, uptight, and anthropocentric, yup


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Yea, I initially figured 18-24 months before being able to resume anything close to normal. The way even distribution is rolling out here, it won't be spring.. and we return to being mostly cooped up indoors for the summer come April anyway


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

Not a peer-reviewed study, but an interesting anecdotal observation... I too work for a healthcare organization (I'm not clinical though). I was visiting a clinic earlier this week and met with the lead physician there for a bit. His clinic has not seen one single case of the flu this this year. Not one. He's had that practice about 15 years and cannot ever recall that being the case this late in the Winter. We're almost to February. I've read that nationally, our numbers are at historic lows. Sorry, but I believe masks, washing hands and social distancing actually work.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Colo Springs E said:


> ...Sorry, but I believe masks, washing hands and social distancing actually work.


No reason to be sorry for believing the truth.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> ...In my mind, this is the American way, the freedom to choose. So choose wisely or be prepared for the consequences. Once the vaccine is available to all, there will be no one to blame but yourself.


Everyone is always so concerned about their rights. Rights come with expectations and responsibilities to your neighbors and fellow citizens, and to the culture and society that makes those rights possible. No one seems to remember that.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Colo Springs E said:


> Not a peer-reviewed study, but an interesting anecdotal observation... I too work for a healthcare organization (I'm not clinical though). I was visiting a clinic earlier this week and met with the lead physician there for a bit. His clinic has not seen one single case of the flu this this year. Not one. He's had that practice about 15 years and cannot ever recall that being the case this late in the Winter. We're almost to February. I've read that nationally, our numbers are at historic lows. Sorry, but I believe masks, washing hands and social distancing actually work.


We have not had one any flu outbreak at my hospital (approx 1350 beds and 10,000 staff). Typically during a flu outbreak we isolate infected patients (approx 7-14 days) and quarantine patient care units (closing the units for admissions until the last case is no longer contagious) . We have not had to do this since treating the first Covid case (January 25, 2020) and the pandemic lockdown began (March 17, 2020)

I believe preventative measures (hand hygiene, masks and social distancing are a good start) as well as other interventions (e.g. reduced visiting, allowing work at home for some dept staff (eg payroll and HR), prevent working and floating between more than one health care facility) has everything to do with this positive outcome


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Oh, absolutely, good hygiene has helped reduce the cases of flu, as well as a lot of other infection disease ... well maybe not STD's ?

But staying away from people, working from home, not working, have also contributed as much or more to the reduction in illness.

Disease spreads easier in higher density communities and in communities that are close knit.

I get me a a long term lease on a cave, gonna be a hermit when I retire ?



cyclelicious said:


> We have not had one any flu outbreak at my hospital (approx 1350 beds and 10,000 staff). Typically during a flu outbreak we isolate infected patients (approx 7-14 days) and quarantine patient care units (closing the units for admissions until the last case is no longer contagious) . We have not had to do this since treating the first Covid case (January 25, 2020) and the pandemic lockdown began (March 17, 2020)
> 
> I believe preventative measures (hand hygiene, masks and social distancing are a good start) as well as other interventions (e.g. reduced visiting, allowing work at home for some dept staff (eg payroll and HR), prevent working and floating between more than one health care facility) has everything to do with this positive outcome


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

SteveF said:


> Everyone is always so concerned about their rights. Rights come with expectations and responsibilities to your neighbors and fellow citizens, and to the culture and society that makes those rights possible. No one seems to remember that.


You're missing something: folks only care about what they can't do and what others won't do.

It's a strange conundrum:

Folkd don't want to be responsible for the health and safety of others, but they want to control the reproductive rights of others.

Folks don't want to pay more taxes, but complain the there are potholes, homelessness, and that their health insurance is too expensive.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Honestly, I think humans (think western society) have gotten spoiled by having organized government, they have a sense of entitlement with no sense for personal responsibility.

I gave up my dreams of utopia in my twenties after spending time in the Peace Corps, returned home to the USA and reality struck.

Face it, most people suck.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

walkerwalker said:


> I'm not clicking that link because it looks like then my laptop would need a vaccine.... but the mRNA vaccine is literally sugar, salt, fat, and acid. The unpronouncable ingredients in your frozen microwave meal and McNuggets are probably much worse.


Now I know why I'm pretty healthy. I eat about one microwave meal a year and have eaten at McDonalds around 3 times in the last 30 years.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Colo Springs E said:


> Not a peer-reviewed study, but an interesting anecdotal observation... I too work for a healthcare organization (I'm not clinical though). I was visiting a clinic earlier this week and met with the lead physician there for a bit. His clinic has not seen one single case of the flu this this year. Not one. He's had that practice about 15 years and cannot ever recall that being the case this late in the Winter. We're almost to February. I've read that nationally, our numbers are at historic lows. Sorry, but I believe masks, washing hands and social distancing actually work.


This. I bet a lot of communicable diseases are down this year. The solutions is everyone becomes and introvert. Problem solved.

also thanks to @Nurse Ben for not engaging with johnny antivax in this thread. I can obliquely do so because I can also remove them from here. Thanks for keeping this all pretty civil and I look forward to joining you all in this forum in 6 months.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ripbird said:


> Now I know why I'm pretty healthy. I eat about one microwave meal a year and have eaten at McDonalds around 3 times in the last 30 years.


Not to mention his comment was completely nutso ?

There's probably more mercury in a glass of tap water than in ten vaccinations.

I still don't understand where folks get their information. I'm a medical provider, if these things were bad for us I'd know that.

I'm always surprised when lay people know more than me about medicine ?

Hey, so check it out: when you put a poster on ignore, the new MTBR format completely removes that poster from your view, so you do t even see that they posted and you don't see them quoted.

Two thumbs up on the new format ??


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Not to mention his comment was completely nutso ?
> 
> There's probably more mercury in a glass of tap water than in ten vaccinations.
> 
> ...


well the internet does have a lots of "proof". More than one would get from getting a medical education and in your practice.

The funny thing is that while medical gets all the grief, I rarely see people espousing bypassing building codes for construction. I mean they are also based on science but so many of them are literally never relied upon for the history of a building. Construction concerns might have their hand in getting code passed to benefit their products. I have been watching the wood companies push hard on the Cross Laminated Timber front from the point of view that it is carbon sequestering, local products, etc. but reasons and random german internet pages and "Scientist" I am sure have all sorts of points that it is better to build with concrete.

I trust doctors and especially scientists. Corporations less but their scientists are doing the best they can. A vaccine that works 1 year after a virus is identified is insane, much less the choice of 2. Crazy amazing stuff!


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> Not to mention his comment was completely nutso ?
> 
> There's probably more mercury in a glass of tap water than in ten vaccinations.


I'm not aware of there being elemental mercury in _any _vaccination.

Bringing up that there is some compound that may contain mercury in a vaccine is about the same as saying using salt on your food is like drinking bleach because it contains _chlorine_. If someone doesn't have enough knowledge about chemistry to know the difference, is that really worth a response?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> I'm not aware of there being elemental mercury in _any _vaccination.
> 
> Bringing up that there is some compound that may contain mercury in a vaccine is about the same as saying using salt on your food is like drinking bleach because it contains _chlorine_. If someone doesn't have enough knowledge about chemistry to know the difference, is that really worth a response?


I always wonder if people that are antivax have scented candles or essential oils in their house. The content of those are literally anything that needs to be in them to make them smell like they do. There is no research on how extended exposure to scents impacts people and the chemicals are dispersed around your house, you inhale the chemicals, and you will end up ingesting them.

If you are going to be militant about chemicals in your body, scented anything should be number one on your list, followed a close second by anti-perspirant. Literally rubbing all types of chemicals on your body to stop a natural process.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I put much more faith in the head epidemiologist where I work who has over 30 years experience studying and treating Infectious Diseases than I do some random internet article that is not based on any science. I work at a Hospital. 
He has repeated stated to our staff that contracting COVID19 is way more dangerous than the side effects of a well studied Vaccine.* I trust his Expertise.*

If a mechanic with 30 years experience working on FORD engines gives you a diagnoses of what it takes to repair your FORD engine, *do you trust the expert?*

If a Plumber with 30 years experience tells you a clogged pipe is going to need to be cleared, *do you trust the expert?*

If a Contractor with 30 years experience building concrete foundations gives you a recommendation on building a foundation, *do you trust the expert?*

With the advent of the internet people with ZERO experience are giving out advice on things they know nothing about and because it "feels right" or "matches a persons values" they believe the baseless information instead of the experts in the field.

I work in IT, I have been doing so for 20 years. There are some things where I am considered the Subject Matter Expert on my team. People come to me with questions regarding that software/hardware. There are other SME's on the team and I go to them for the info they know. I don't tell Doctors how to set bones and treat patients, they are the experts in their field.

Keyboard Warriors are NOT Subject Matter Experts when it comes to Vaccines. But they have convinced a subset of the population that bringing back Small Pox, Polio and the Measles would be better than a possible side effect from a vaccine. The numbers just do not support any theory that vaccines are dangerous. There is NO data to back that up, rather there is mountains of data showing that Vaccines are safe and effective and have been so for over 100 years.

Part of my job is helping the departments prepare each fall for the "Winter Surge" due to the spreading of the flu. The 2019/2020 flu season was extra light, it usually ramps up in Feb/March, right when schools closed down and stay at home orders went into effect. So far this year there has been NO flu season, NO winter Surge. Yes it is anecdotal, but to the points of others who work in healthcare, distancing and sanitization is the direct reason for the lack of Flu season.

I got my second dose of Moderna a week ago. outside of a sore injection site I experienced fatigue, chills and fever during the following 48 hours, after that I am back to normal.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

rockcrusher said:


> I always wonder if people that are antivax have scented candles or essential oils in their house. The content of those are literally anything that needs to be in them to make them smell like they do. There is no research on how extended exposure to scents impacts people and the chemicals are dispersed around your house, you inhale the chemicals, and you will end up ingesting them.
> 
> If you are going to be militant about chemicals in your body, scented anything should be number one on your list, followed a close second by anti-perspirant. Literally rubbing all types of chemicals on your body to stop a natural process.


But, but sir, water has HYDROGEN!!! Isn't that how the Hindenburg burnt to a crisp?


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm always surprised when lay people know more than me about medicine ?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I cannot believe anyone judicious enough to wear a mask would make a habit of eating at restaurants.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Latest CDC Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) data. Typically only about 1% get reported with other vaccines Flu ect....









COVID Vaccine Data - OpenVAERS







www.openvaers.com


----------



## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

Safety monitoring in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conduct post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring using the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), a spontaneous (or passive) reporting system. ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





VAERS is primarily a safety signal detection and hypothesis generating system. Generally, VAERS data cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused an adverse event. VAERS data interpreted alone or out of context can lead to erroneous conclusions about cause and effect as well as the risk of adverse events occurring following vaccination.

Perhaps the two most common misconceptions about VAERS are that temporally associated reports represent true adverse reactions caused by vaccination, and that VAERS reports equate to rates of adverse events or indicate risk of adverse events associated with vaccination. The VAERS website has specific guidance on interpreting case report information, which includes the statement: "When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established &#8230; VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine"


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm always surprised when lay people know more than me about medicine ?


I get that a lot in my profession, too. Armchair professionals.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

Crankout said:


> I get that a lot in my profession, too. Armchair professionals.


I get the opposite. Protected by math and physics. It would be kind of funny to me if people started acting like experts on integrated circuits, though.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

andy f said:


> I get the opposite. Protected by math and physics. It would be kind of funny to me if people started acting like experts on integrated circuits, though.


I'm sure if you laid it out there on Facebook and politicized it, you'd get the integrated circuit non-believers....


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Crankout said:


> I'm sure if you laid it out there on Facebook and politicized it, you'd get the integrated circuit non-believers....


I think the interesting thing is the people that get all "First they said you didn't need to wear a mask, then they said you do, now they are saying maybe 2 are important. It is hard to believe them when what they are saying changes so frequently." Shows a total lack of understanding how science works, how a rapidly evolving situation can change, yet it also shows how transparent the scientist are, amending their initial standings as new and more advanced information comes in.

Like first they said vacuum tubes, then they said transistors, now it is silicon chips. Which is it? I am sticking vacuum tubes as it is the first things the scientists said worked. Or first they said lap belts, then they said shoulder belts, now they say air bags and shoulder belts. Which is it?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> Or first they said lap belts, then they said shoulder belts, now they say air bags and shoulder belts. Which is it?


Full harnesses, including HANS and fire suppression systems, or nothing.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> Full harnesses, including HANS and fire suppression systems, or nothing.


That is how I drive. Plus I don't drive.

On that note I saw a guy skiing the other night with a full cartridge respirator on.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Crankout said:


> Just curious; are the COVID anti-vax people also avoiding yearly flu shots?


I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means. I had every standard vaccination growing up. Both my kids had every standard vaccination growing up. I even went and had both rounds of the shingles vaccine earlier this year. But the flu shot? NOPE. I haven't done so since 2010. My employer used to require us to get one every year. Every year I got sick with flu like symptoms and had to miss work. I wasn't the only one. Our sick and vacation time were tied together so I was essentially losing vacation days by being forced to get a flu shot. There was talk of filing a grievance with the City to force them to return our vacation time credit. Lo and behold, they cancelled the requirement to get the flu shot the next year (2011). I haven't had the shot or the flu since. Hmmm....

As far as the COVID vaccine, you guys can have at it. My wife works at a major biotech responsible for some pretty amazing discoveries (they loaned some of their rocket scientist pharmaceutical chemists to the Pfizer COVID team). She has been there over 23 years so I've seen the processes and YEARS AND YEARS required to get drugs approved. Many, many, MANY drugs have gone through the same process for YEARS and YEARS before they were deemed safe by the FDA and then lo and behold, we find out later they are actually bad for you and get pulled off the market overnight. So yeah, I'm kind of skeptical of anything like this rushed to market. I also have plenty of family in the medical field so I'm not in the dark on COVID...daughter is an RN on a recovery floor, daughter in law works in ICU, niece is an ER Nurse Practitioner and her husband is an ER doctor.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, then we can continue this mess for years.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

k2rider1964 said:


> As far as the COVID vaccine, you guys can have at it. My wife works at a major biotech responsible for some pretty amazing discoveries (they loaned some of their rocket scientist pharmaceutical chemists to the Pfizer COVID team). She has been there over 23 years so I've seen the processes and YEARS AND YEARS required to get drugs approved. Many, many, MANY drugs have gone through the same process for YEARS and YEARS before they were deemed safe by the FDA and then lo and behold, we find out later they are actually bad for you and get pulled off the market overnight. So yeah, I'm kind of skeptical of anything like this rushed to market...


Let's assume your skepticism is totally justified and there's an elevated risk of serious side effects that won't show up until years later. How do you weigh those risks vs. the far more immediate risks of serious and potentially lifelong illness or death from COVID? If I was 30 I could maybe see the argument. At 50+ (as everyone in this forum presumably is) or 60+ in my case, the math just doesn't work. The risk of not getting the vaccine just seems so much higher.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

wayold said:


> Let's assume your skepticism is totally justified and there's an elevated risk of serious side effects that won't show up until years later. How do you weigh those risks vs. the far more immediate risks of serious and potentially lifelong illness or death from COVID? If I was 30 I could maybe see the argument. At 50+ (as everyone in this forum presumably is) or 60+ in my case, the math just doesn't work. The risk of not getting the vaccine just seems so much higher.


I'm not aware of any expert or organization on earth that disagrees with this position. The risks of the disease far outweigh any known risk of the vaccine.

This study was apparently just released showing that the vaccine does reduce transmission. Here's to hoping other studies show the same:









More Good Vaccine News: Early Data Suggests AstraZeneca Shot Can Lower Transmission Risk


New research suggests that the covid-19 vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University will not only offer protection against the symptoms of the viral illness but also lower a person’s risk of transmitting the virus to others. Though scientists have been optimistic that this and other...




gizmodo.com


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

> As far as the COVID vaccine, you guys can have at it. My wife works at a major biotech responsible for some pretty amazing discoveries (they loaned some of their rocket scientist pharmaceutical chemists to the Pfizer COVID team). She has been there over 23 years so I've seen the processes and YEARS AND YEARS required to get drugs approved. Many, many, MANY drugs have gone through the same process for YEARS and YEARS before they were deemed safe by the FDA and then lo and behold, we find out later they are actually bad for you and get pulled off the market overnight. So yeah, I'm kind of skeptical of anything like this rushed to market. I also have plenty of family in the medical field so I'm not in the dark on COVID...daughter is an RN on a recovery floor, daughter in law works in ICU, niece is an ER Nurse Practitioner and her husband is an ER doctor.


True, the long term effects of a new vaccine cannot be easily determined. And the reason they could bring to market these vaccines in such a short time is because they are based on genetics.

But if everyone would have your attitude, America would probably reach 1M dead and the virus would be bouncing around the country for a while, destroying lives and the economy.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> With the advent of the internet people with ZERO experience are giving out advice on things they know nothing about and because it "feels right" or "matches a persons values" they believe the baseless information instead of the experts in the field.


Hey! I thought talking about Politics was off limits here!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

serious said:


> True, the long term effects of a new vaccine cannot be easily determined. And the reason they could bring to market these vaccines in such a short time is because they are based on genetics.
> 
> But if everyone would have your attitude, America would probably reach 1M dead and the virus would be bouncing around the country for a while, destroying lives and the economy.


To be entirely honest, to know all the side effects from a medication or vaccine, it would need to be studied for a long time, decades even, so realistically the short time line is adequate as most side effects present in the first few days.

The other thing about medications is that unlike tobacco, they don't cause illness, they treat illness.

Just some things to consider ...


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> I think the interesting thing is the people that get all "First they said you didn't need to wear a mask, then they said you do, now they are saying maybe 2 are important. It is hard to believe them when what they are saying changes so frequently." Shows a total lack of understanding how science works, how a rapidly evolving situation can change, yet it also shows how transparent the scientist are, amending their initial standings as new and more advanced information comes in.
> 
> Like first they said vacuum tubes, then they said transistors, now it is silicon chips. Which is it? I am sticking vacuum tubes as it is the first things the scientists said worked. Or first they said lap belts, then they said shoulder belts, now they say air bags and shoulder belts. Which is it?


The problem is that the updates do not consider a thorough consolidation of the science.
The mask wearing thing has been one of the most unscientific aspects of the whole policy. The changes are not based upon the totality of the science, only bits and pieces, and that can have catastrophic effects.

Mask design, application, and efficacy is not new science.
This has not "evolved" in 12 months.
But the political policy has.
BIG BIG difference.

Explain to me how on God's green earth directing people to "double mask" is anything like science when nothing is specified about filtration density, total number of layers in each mask, seal effectiveness, exhalation accommodation, maintenance or cleaning.

This stuff is a stab in the dark at some kind of practical policy that pushes science nearly completely off the table.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I am getting tired of all these sound bite scientists continually asserting that certain things “make good sense” or “definitely sounds good to me” and then those statements are put forth as “science”.
They are not.
They are personal opinions of scientists and the two are not the same.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

*Science isn't using all of the science it should be*
Though face masks, travel restrictions, and social distancingguidelines may help slow the number of new infections in the short term, study authors say the lack of climate data included in epidemiological models has left a glaring hole in the plans to defend against COVID.

"In pandemics, where massive and effective vaccination is not available, the government planning should be longer-term by considering weather effectsand design the public health and safety guidelines accordingly," Prof. Dbouk adds. "This could help avoid reactive responses in terms of strict lockdowns that adversely affect all aspects of life and the global economy."
As temperatures rise and humidity falls, Drikakis and Dbouk expect another improvement in infection numbers. They note, however, that mask and distancing guidelines should continue to be followed with the appropriate weather-based modifications.








The weather has a bigger impact on COVID spread than social distancing, study concludes


Researchers say the lack of climate data included in epidemiological models has left a glaring hole in the plans to defend against COVID.




www.studyfinds.org


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

OzarkFathom said:


> The problem is that the updates do not consider a thorough consolidation of the science.
> The mask wearing thing has been one of the most unscientific aspects of the whole policy. The changes are not based upon the totality of the science, only bits and pieces, and that can have catastrophic effects.
> 
> Mask design, application, and efficacy is not new science.
> ...


If you cannot even understand the simple concept of mask wearing against spreading a virus out of your mouth and nose, it is best to stop posting anti mask nonsense. Just look at the impact on the flu from all the mask wearing, hand washing and distancing. Literally eliminated this winter.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

serious said:


> If you cannot even understand the simple concept of mask wearing against spreading a virus out of your mouth and nose, it is best to stop posting anti mask nonsense. Just look at the impact on the flu from all the mask wearing, hand washing and distancing. Literally eliminated this winter.


So, scientifically, exactly how many ratty handkerchiefs equal a single high grade medical mask? Or 2, since that's the new guideline.
Would it be 2 ratty handkerchiefs? Less? More?


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Deficiency disease/problem, just like the millions of sailors that died in the 1800's from scurvy (vitamin-c deficiency).
Close to 90% of those getting severely ill and dying are deficient in this crucial steroidal immune system hormone they call Vitamin-D and 80% of the US is deficient. Big Pharma/Med, the Big Pharma/Med funded Main Stream Media and the corrupt CDC/NIH/FDA will not tell you this. They love this deficiency it makes them billions of dollar$ in pharmaceutical sales, medical treatments, vaccine sales ect.. 

Here is my simple daily "vaccine" that I try to get from natural sources (Sun, diet) when possible. Works very well for viral infections, bacterial infections, autoimmune diseases, inflammatory diseases, cancers ect...
5,000iu summer and 10,000iu winter Vitamin-D (Critical Immune System Hormone, need blood levels at 60ng/ml)
400mg Magnesium (Activates Vitamin-D)
1 gram Vitamin-C (Antiviral and stimulates T-Cells)
30mg Zinc (Antiviral)
400mg Quercetin (Zinc ionophore/gets the Zinc into cells)


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

serious said:


> If you cannot even understand the simple concept of mask wearing against spreading a virus out of your mouth and nose, it is best to stop posting anti mask nonsense. Just look at the impact on the flu from all the mask wearing, hand washing and distancing. Literally eliminated this winter.


Think about that for just a second.
*According to your "Scientific" opinion, the masks stopped the spread of the flu virus dead in its tracks, according to you "literally eliminated it", but man o man that sneaky old COVID slipped right by.*
And again many many masks being worn actually concentrate and project exhaled droplets farther and more efficiently. Forget about the eyeglass fogging seal around the nose.

I think I know who is putting out "nonsense" here, that is pretty obvious.

Do masks when used correctly reduce the spread in the right circumstances?
Sure.
I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise.
And for you to imply otherwise demonstrates the weakness of you argument.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

The whole DNA/RNA debate seems moot based on scientific publication via various sources. It has no impact on our genetics.

Just get the damn shot and help us return to normal. 


serious said:


> If you cannot even understand the simple concept of mask wearing against spreading a virus out of your mouth and nose, it is best to stop posting anti mask nonsense. Just look at the impact on the flu from all the mask wearing, hand washing and distancing. Literally eliminated this winter.


It's difficult to persuade anti-maskers/vaxxers to do the right thing for the common good.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

OzarkFathom said:


> Do masks when used correctly reduce the spread in the right circumstances?
> Sure.
> I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise.


I just want this to live on forever.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> I just want this to live on forever.


Well things are looking up around here.

Now you can address the more salient point in that post, why mask wearing "eliminated the flu completely" but not COVID.
You know, _scientifically_.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In2falling said:


> Deficiency disease/problem, just like the millions of sailors that died in the 1800's from scurvy (vitamin-c deficiency).
> Close to 90% of those getting severely ill and dying are deficient in this crucial steroidal immune system hormone they call Vitamin-D and 80% of the US is deficient. Big Pharma/Med, the Big Pharma/Med funded Main Stream Media and the corrupt CDC/NIH/FDA will not tell you this. They love this deficiency it makes them billions of dollar$ in pharmaceutical sales, medical treatments, vaccine sales ect..
> 
> Here is my simple daily "vaccine" that I try to get from natural sources (Sun, diet) when possible. Works very well for viral infections, bacterial infections, autoimmune diseases, inflammatory diseases, cancers ect...
> ...


Dude, you really gotta' lay off on the Vitamin D thing, it's like your obsession or something. Granted it's a thing, but ain't the thing and it certainly ain't the only thing.

Rarely is their one cause for an entire population's susceptibility to disease, just think about it, it's just not logical.

I grew up with a father who thought high dose Vitamin C was the answer to staying healthy, he still takes huge dose of Vitamin C, pees it out every day, but insists that more is better.

There's a really funny joke that someone posted recently, really applies to many comments on this thread, it goes something like this:

"Hey honey, come look at this, I just found something on the internet that no one has ever considered."

Maybe diversify a little bit, get a new hobby, stamps or coins?


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Crankout said:


> The whole DNA/RNA debate seems moot based on scientific publication via various sources. It has no impact on our genetics.
> 
> Just get the damn shot and help us return to normal.
> 
> It's difficult to persuade anti-maskers/vaxxers to do the right thing for the common good.


Broad brushes are poor tools in debating the facts.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Crankout said:


> The whole DNA/RNA debate seems moot based on scientific publication via various sources. It has no impact on our genetics.
> 
> Just get the damn shot and help us return to normal.
> 
> It's difficult to persuade anti-maskers/vaxxers to do the right thing for the common good.


It's not difficult, it's not possible. So consider your own opinions, how firm are they, would you change your opinions because I said so?

So most people have deep felt beliefs and understandings about hw things work, and the only time these beliefs change are when the individual decides to change.

Change is hard, change is slow, change is complicated.

You can't change other people, you can only change yourself.

My advice: Mind your own business, stop with the social responsibility BS, let people do what they want to do, if you feel that what another person does is putting you at risk, then YOU CHOOSE to change what you are doing. For example: You walk into a store, no one is wearing a mask, it makes you uncomfortable so you ...

1) Grin and bear it
2) Leave

Really, that's all you can do that will make a difference for you.

You can argue with me till you are blue in the face, but consider what I'm saying, think about your experiences, and you'll see that nothing you do will change others, but if you push it you will cause a conflict.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Excellent.

Protecting yourself protects others. 
Wear a mask to protect yourself.
Debate the subject, consider what’s offered.
As for teaching others, let them have the experience that results from their behavior and take steps to isolate yourself from any negative consequences they create.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The vaccine implementation around here is going smoothly.
Late 70s aunt and uncle praised the efficient process.
No one standing around, no chit chat.
National Guard directing logistics, driver and passenger paperwork as proceeding through line, both windows down, shots through window each side at same time, proceed to parking lot for 15 minutes, blow horn for attendant if issues arise. Whole process, 1 hour.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> So, scientifically, exactly how many ratty handkerchiefs equal a single high grade medical mask? Or 2, since that's the new guideline.
> Would it be 2 ratty handkerchiefs? Less? More?


2.387, plus or minus, depending on state of rattiness


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> 2.387, plus or minus, depending on state of rattiness


Ed Zackary!

I liked when the 'science' drove our Governor to declare a 9:30 curfew. Cuz the virus apparently comes out at night, or something.
And then people are expected to trust someone who exhibits that kind of judgement.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

Crankout said:


> The whole DNA/RNA debate seems moot based on scientific publication via various sources. It has no impact on our genetics.
> 
> Just get the damn shot and help us return to normal.
> 
> It's difficult to persuade anti-maskers/vaxxers to do the right thing for the common good.


Yes, genetic vaccines are a type of vaccines. No impact on our DNA.


----------



## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

OzarkFathom said:


> Think about that for just a second.
> *According to your "Scientific" opinion, the masks stopped the spread of the flu virus dead in its tracks, according to you "literally eliminated it", but man o man that sneaky old COVID slipped right by.*
> And again many many masks being worn actually concentrate and project exhaled droplets farther and more efficiently. Forget about the eyeglass fogging seal around the nose.
> 
> ...


Make up your mind. In one post you **** all over masks, in another you approve of masks.

Furthermore the R0 number for the flu and covid are different. Masks help prevent both, but in a world of morons where many refuse simple guidelines, covid will spread a lot more than the flu.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

You cannot make a compelling case by embellishment and misrepresenting what others post.

As for the “moron factor” you put forth, that is an unscientific assertion as well.
The same morons who as you say completely eliminated the flu, spread the COVID like wildfire. And not in any credible proportion considering any communicable difference.
So again, nonsense.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Expert Prediction of Scientists:

_*Experts working in the field of vaccine development tend to believe that an effective vaccine is not likely to be available for the general public before the fall of 2021. A new paper details the results of a recent survey of 28 experts working in vaccinology.*_

*The survey was carried out in late June 2020. The majority of those surveyed were mostly Canadian or American academics with an average of 25 years of experience working in the field.
"Experts in our survey offered forecasts on vaccine development that were generally less optimistic than the timeline of early 2021 offered by US public officials. In general they seem to believe that a publicly available vaccine next summer is the best-case scenario with the possibility that it may take until 2022,"* said Jonathan Kimmelman, a James McGill professor and the director of the Biomedical Ethics Unit at McGill University and the senior author on the paper.
Many experts also believe that there may be some false starts before an effective vaccine is available. *"The experts we surveyed believe that there is a 1 in 3 chance that the vaccine will receive a safety warning label after approval, and a 4 in 10 chance that the first large field study will not report efficacy,"* added Patrick Kane, the lead author, who is a decision scientist and postdoctoral fellow at McGill University.









Expert opinion: COVID-19 vaccine rollout unlikely before fall 2021: But many experts surveyed also believe vaccine development will take place at an accelerated rate


Experts working in the field of vaccine development tend to believe that an effective vaccine is not likely to be available for the general public before the fall of 2021. A new paper details the results of a recent survey of 28 experts working in vaccinology.



www.sciencedaily.com





Looks like we need to revisit the term "expert"......


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

And again....

_The average times of the fastest sprinters in the 100-metre dash are in the ballpark of 10 seconds. So, what would you think if someone promised to run the race in one second? 
It typically takes a minimum of 10 years for a vaccine to complete the three consecutive phases of the clinical research pipeline. This is because of the scope and length of the experiments, the need to critically assess the results at each stage and the mountains of paperwork that are involved. 
What are the chances that this can be reduced to 12 months? Indeed, it has been implied that this process can be accelerated to "warp speed."

We contend that a safe and effective vaccine against severe acute respiratory syndrome-coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2), which is the causative agent of coronavirus disease COVID-19, *most likely cannot be made available to the public in time to make a substantial difference to the natural outcome of this pandemic. *People often cling to hope even when prospects of success are low. However, this can have negative consequences if that hope is not realized.

*We are academic scientists who manage vaccine research programs. In fact, Dr. Bridle received COVID-19-focused funding to develop a novel vaccine platform. Although many of us are working hard towards developing vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, we worry that some in the scientific community have offered too much hope for this to be accomplished in a timely fashion. Sometimes these promises are used by politicians and governments to inform public policies. As a result, the integrity of the scientific community is now in the limelight and, arguably, at risk.









Fast COVID-19 vaccine timelines are unrealistic and put the integrity of scientists at risk


It usually takes 10 years for a new vaccine to complete clinical trials, but we've been promised a COVID-19 vaccine in 12 to 18 months. Even if such fast-tracked development is possible, is it wise?




theconversation.com




*_


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Gawd, how I love the new ignore function! Not only do I not see the blocked poster's posts, I don't see the blocked poster's comment when it's quoted 

Seriously, just try it, then you won't end arguing with a fool on the street corner; and confused people driving by won't know which one is the fool


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

OzarkFathom said:


> Expert Prediction of Scientists:
> 
> _*Experts working in the field of vaccine development tend to believe that an effective vaccine is not likely to be available for the general public before the fall of 2021. A new paper details the results of a recent survey of 28 experts working in vaccinology.*_
> 
> ...


It just amazes me how many people blindly follow the advice of "experts". As if every doctor, medical professional, scientist, whatever, graduated at the top of the class. 
When, in fact, they are just like everyone else-they range from dull to bright. 
Within my lifetime, I have seen so many
medical mistakes among friends and family. 
Anyone here looked up the stats on medical malpractice?? Mind boggling even if the high estimates are halved. How about all the
drugs, chemicals, "foods", etc that were once endorsed by the "experts " that have since been found deadly. 
There are still NO covid "experts ",
only students. 
And yes, I wear a mask (1),
and yes, I will get the vaccine.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Gawd, how I love the new ignore function! Not only do I not see the blocked poster's posts, I don't see the blocked poster's comment when it's quoted
> 
> Seriously, just try it, then you won't end arguing with a fool on the street corner; and confused people driving by won't know which one is the fool


Works great for folks who really need the help.
So great that they feel the need to perpetually review it.
Hmmmmm.
Must be really tough having to read the reactions.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> Expert Prediction of Scientists:
> 
> _*Experts working in the field of vaccine development tend to believe that an effective vaccine is not likely to be available for the general public before the fall of 2021. A new paper details the results of a recent survey of 28 experts working in vaccinology.*_
> 
> ...


Look at the date of that piece. That was before the manufacturers even SOUGHT the FDA's EUA.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Yes, that is clear.
I am pointing out that the "experts" found some compelling reason to make emphatic statements about science and process in a circumstance where they could not back it up with timely scientific evidence and they were proved to be very wrong.

*Additionally, they obviously ignored the timeline estimates of the very people heading up large teams of scientists actively engaged in the development of multiple vaccines which proved to be 90%+ effective in short order.*


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

downcountry said:


> It just amazes me how many people blindly follow the advice of "experts". As if every doctor, medical professional, scientist, whatever, graduated at the top of the class.
> When, in fact, they are just like everyone else-they range from dull to bright.
> Within my lifetime, I have seen so many
> medical mistakes among friends and family.
> ...


Like anything human, mistakes will be made, but the mistakes are not always due to incompetence or stupidity.

As we learn we change, we improve, so it's important to consider the context at the time of the "mistake".

Criticizing the past is always easier when you know the future.

Think about the last time you had someone work on your car and the repair failed to solve the problem. You might be quick to blame the mechanic or perhaps you blame the company that made the vehicle, but what if it's just hard to know the solution because things are complicated?

Being an expert does not mean you know everything or you don't make mistakes.

Just think about it.


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)




----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

_*A recommendation about double-masking by White House advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci isn't receiving any praise from one of the nation's leading experts on COVID-19.
Dr. Michael Osterholm, who leads the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, refuted Dr. Fauci's claim that double-layering would likely make masking "more effective."
"I do not support the idea of two masks," said Dr. Osterholm*, who spoke to WCCO Radio's Cory Hepola on Wednesday morning.

*Osterholm explained that masks work based on how they fit and their filtration.
"Masks, as they're defined work in two ways. The first is in regards to how that masks fits. How well does it fit around you? It's like swimming goggles. They don't usually leak through the lenses they leak through the seal around your eyes or face," said Osterholm.*
Dr. Osterholm pointed out the N95 respirators are so highly regarded because of how they filter out the virus.

"They have a very tight face fit and the material that's used basically for the filters is electrostatically charged," he said. "The pore size lets air travel through easily, but the virus is trapped as it comes through by an electrostatic charge in the respirator."
Doubling up on masks would likely lead to more harm, than good, when it comes to cloth face masks, or even N95 respirators.
*"If you put more of it on, all it does is it impedes the air coming through and it makes it blow in and out along the sides. The fit becomes even less effective," Osterholm said. "Double masking could be a detriment to your protection."*
_


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Like anything human, mistakes will be made, but the mistakes are not always due to incompetence or stupidity.
> 
> As we learn we change, we improve, so it's important to consider the context at the time of the "mistake".
> 
> ...


Good point. Should be common sense, apparently not


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Here’s Oz’s expert advice early on...

Utter B.S.
I just washed my hands and will be back to work next week.
You stay home and cower in the corner with your internet connection and your little timer.
Stop tying up the emergency room over flu symptoms.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> Dude, you really gotta' lay off on the Vitamin D thing, it's like your obsession or something. Granted it's a thing, but ain't the thing and it certainly ain't the only thing.
> 
> Rarely is their one cause for an entire population's susceptibility to disease, just think about it, it's just not logical.
> 
> ...


Thanks for setting me straight there buddy. You are right a 14x higher risk of severe illness and death is just a "thing". 
You are right I need to stop reading research papers and study papers and turn to you and CNN for all my health and medical information. Krispy Kreme doughnuts, Big Phrama pharmaceuticals and vaccines are the answers.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Here's Oz's expert advice early on...
> 
> Utter B.S.
> I just washed my hands and will be back to work next week.
> ...


Link it.
You're my favorite Groupie....

But ya gotta love it when those preaching the most about wearing masks promote the one activity that requires its removal indoors in close proximity to others while putting stuff in your mouth. Just so they can socialize, be served, and not have to get their hands in hot soapy water doing the dishes, LMAO.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's not difficult, it's not possible. So consider your own opinions, how firm are they, would you change your opinions because I said so?
> 
> So most people have deep felt beliefs and understandings about hw things work, and the only time these beliefs change are when the individual decides to change.
> 
> ...


I guess, but I'm a fan of social responsibility and it's BS.

Listen I read Jonathan Haidt, and get the whole 'understand the other's perspective' gig. Sometimes it work for me. Other times I get impatient and frustrated.

I'm expecting you to not offer up unsolicited advice or attempt to correct misunderstanding from here on out.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

The best way to protect society is to protect yourself.
Simple enough.
But evabody wants to rule the world......


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Broad brushes are poor tools in debating the facts.


Huh? Broad brushes re: molecular biology?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Link it.
> You're my favorite Groupie....
> 
> But ya gotta love it when those preaching the most about wearing masks promote the one activity that requires its removal indoors in close proximity to others while putting stuff in your mouth. Just so they can socialize, be served, and not have to get their hands in hot soapy water doing the dishes, LMAO.


Glad you find yourself funny, i do to









Mountain Bike Reviews Forum







www.mtbr.com


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Glad you find yourself funny, i do to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks quite different in context now doesn't it.....


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Crankout said:


> Huh? Broad brushes re: molecular biology?





> . *It's difficult to persuade anti-maskers/vaxxers to do the right thing for the common good. *


*That* is a fallacious broad brush us vs them dichotomy.
Everyone who disagrees with your details and particular choices is not the enemy of good.
And they are not a monolithic group.
It is a rhetorical oversimplification.

Again, I find most people taking reasonable precautions.
It's the people who preach behavior for everyone else whilst breaking the rules themselves that I find amusing. And there are plenty of examples of that.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Looks quite different in context now doesn't it.....


No, you made some entertaining gold nuggets in that thread and elsewhere. I would ask you to keep it coming but of that I have no doubt


----------



## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OzarkFathom said:


> Expert Prediction of Scientists:
> 
> _*Experts working in the field of vaccine development tend to believe that an effective vaccine is not likely to be available for the general public before the fall of 2021. A new paper details the results of a recent survey of 28 experts working in vaccinology.*_
> 
> ...


Maybe you need a better understanding?

As pointed out below.


twodownzero said:


> Look at the date of that piece. That was before the manufacturers even SOUGHT the FDA's EUA.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Explain it to me


----------



## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

serious said:


> If you cannot even understand the simple concept of mask wearing against spreading a virus out of your mouth and nose, it is best to stop posting anti mask nonsense. Just look at the impact on the flu from all the mask wearing, hand washing and distancing. Literally eliminated this winter.


LMAO, they are not testing for the flu this year, has nothing to do with mask policy.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Arm&Hammer said:


> LMAO, they are not testing for the flu this year, has nothing to do with mask policy.


Testing for flu is down, and from sampling we know flu is way diwn too. Because of mask wearing, social distancing, and other means most ppl adhere to to avoid covid. The fact that covid is still able to transmit shows how crafty it is, and hardly the the wash your hands and move along issue some tried to have you believe


----------



## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> Gawd, how I love the new ignore function! Not only do I not see the blocked poster's posts, I don't see the blocked poster's comment when it's quoted
> 
> Seriously, just try it, then you won't end arguing with a fool on the street corner; and confused people driving by won't know which one is the fool





Nurse Ben said:


> Like anything human, mistakes will be made, but the mistakes are not always due to incompetence or stupidity.
> 
> As we learn we change, we improve, so it's important to consider the context at the time of the "mistake".
> 
> ...


But humanness also explains why the mask idea is largely a failure. Not that, mechanically, masks can't work. It supposed people wouldn't actually act like people. And I know for a fact that experts have been studying human nature for at least a few years now.
And I don't mind advice from the experts,
I just want the truth, from whatever side, and not smoke.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

downcountry said:


> But humanness also explains why the mask idea is largely a failure. Not that, mechanically, masks can't work. It supposed people wouldn't actually act like people. And I know for a fact that experts have been studying human nature for at least a few years now.
> And I don't mind advice from the experts,
> I just want the truth, from whatever side, and not smoke.


Good point. Truth is nice. When you/we are fed lies for so long you tend not to believe anything. At that point you should consider who you'v been listening to


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

OzarkFathom said:


> It's the people who preach behavior for everyone else whilst breaking the rules themselves that I find amusing. And there are plenty of examples of that.


Humans are social animals. It isn't easy. The last time I saw Colorado was January 2020. And I still can't until this is over.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Crankout said:


> I guess, but I'm a fan of social responsibility and it's BS.
> 
> Listen I read Jonathan Haidt, and get the whole 'understand the other's perspective' gig. Sometimes it work for me. Other times I get impatient and frustrated.
> 
> I'm expecting you to not offer up unsolicited advice or attempt to correct misunderstanding from here on out.


Well, since you asked nicely ...

Boundaries, what we share with another person or what is shared between a group, they vary depending on the relationship.

In a community, a boundary between members of the community vary depending on their roles, but how are boundaries different in an unintentional community where membership is self determined?

When you suggest that their is a greater good served by a member's actions, you assume that all members feel equally, but in the case of an unintentional community, you have no control or license to control others. Cooperation and agreement is independent and self determined.

Suggesting that people wear masks to safeguard others relies on agreement and cooperation. Insisting that people wear masks crosses boundaries because the relationships between anonymous people is indeterminate.

In other words, we are not a community of people, we are not a society, we are a collection of unrelated, independent beings with a limited collective vision.

We are a part of a political economy.

If you can find a way to entwine political or economic value into a common good, then yes, you may get people to agree to wear masks, maintain social distancing, and get vaccinated in order to protect others.

This ^ can work in some countries, possibly in some communities, but in America, Good luck ?

Sadly, my uncle passed away from Covid yesterday, he was a pediatrician, he'd been receiving treatment for Lymphoma and had been doing well; he was expected to recover. He wasn't able to receive the vaccine due to treatment.

His last words to my father were: the virus is real.

On a bright note, I am happy to note that all of my kids have now received both doses of the vaccine, boom!

My son, daughter, daughter in law, and son in law are all in the medical field, as are my wife and I. We are two nurse practitioners, a future nurse practitioner, and two future nurses. We also got a token future orthodontist, but thankfully he doesn't ride a Yeti ?

Everyone stay safe out there, the vaccine is going to be more widely available in the coming months, until then we still need to be smart.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Well, since you asked nicely ...
> 
> Boundaries, what we share with another person or what is shared between a group, they vary depending on the relationship.
> 
> ...


Sorry for your loss. On the brighter side sounds like you have lots going on and lots to be happy about.
As far as a peaceful society not working in America think it will have to get worse before it gets better. A reckoning of what's really important and how we are all better off when we all work together, if you will. The growing divide between haves and have nots, financially, mentally, emotionally... The finger pointing blame game. Maybe now with 5G controlling all to be vaccinated, and Jewish space lasers in full effect...


----------



## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

Arm&Hammer said:


> LMAO, they are not testing for the flu this year, has nothing to do with mask policy.


People are not presenting with / dying from flu. Nice try.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> At that point you should consider who you'v been listening to


It's not as simple as just picking a 'who'. People who might be right about one thing one minute are often completely wrong about something else the next. 
Those who just pick a 'hero' (or more likely, have that hero picked for them) and then go along with everything they say regardless are morons.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Colo Springs E said:


> People are not presenting with / dying from flu. Nice try.


So you really believe the US magically went from 45M flu cases with 800,000+ hospitalizations and over 60,000 deaths 3 years ago to 0-0-0 this year?

Seems reasonable.

?





__





Estimated Flu-Related Illnesses, Medical Visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2017–2018 Flu Season | CDC


Links to key resources on the burden of influenza - CDC




www.cdc.gov


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's not as simple as just picking a 'who'. People who might be right about one thing one minute are often completely wrong about something else the next.
> Those who just pick a 'hero' (or more likely, have that hero picked for them) and then go along with everything they say regardless are morons.


I agree. Time has a way of proving who is worth listening to, and who the morons are.

Smart ppl learn from their mistakes.
A genius learns from others


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you really believe the US magically went from 45M flu cases with 800,000+ hospitalizations and over 60,000 deaths 3 years ago to 0-0-0 this year?
> 
> Seems reasonable.
> 
> ...


Never heard flu cases were zero. That's not reasonable. More ppl got vaccinated for flu this year, for obvious reasons, and more ppl are taking more precautions against infection. As a result flu cases are way down. Pretty reasonable, and an easy concept to grasp


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Another thing with virus is the less ppl that have it, the less chance you have of getting it. Like a domino effect. Which is why a national (federal) lockdown, and not the regional partial at dif times shutdowns we had would have been much more effective. We wouldn’t find ourselves nearing 1/2 million dead. Hindsight is 20/20. Guess asking some to sacrifice for the good of everyone is too much to ask. Ppl get all caught up in what their rights are, and defiant against mandates like mask wearing, gasp.
Hard to believe, giving our history with this virus already, ppl still dig their heals in against what’s known (so far) to help


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Never heard flu cases were zero. That's not reasonable.





Colo Springs E said:


> People are not presenting with / dying from flu. Nice try.


You heard it here first!


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Hard to believe, giving our history with this virus already, ppl still dig their heals in against what's known (so far) to help


I hear ya.
As I mentioned before, I've only actually seen one person IRL refuse to wear a mask into a store this past year, a very angry Puerto Rican lady who declared it "stupid f*****g Grin*o bullshit".

Obviously, there are more people out there like this, but at least where I live, the number is thankfully miniscule.
I tend to see a lot more people being labelled "anti-maskers" simply because they question the pointlessness of some of the more ridiculous guidelines, even though they still follow the ones that make sense.


----------



## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you really believe the US magically went from 45M flu cases with 800,000+ hospitalizations and over 60,000 deaths 3 years ago to 0-0-0 this year?
> 
> Seems reasonable.
> 
> ...


I did mot mean zero cases or deaths.... my point is there are significantly fewer cases and deaths this year. Not an opinion, a fact.


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

I don't fault anyone for being skeptical about vaccines or all of the numbers in general, in fact I should hope that everyone has put some thought into it.
Haven't been fortunate enough to be eligible for a vaccine yet but glad front-line workers and the elderly are at the front of the line with inmates and hospital board members, it's ok, I'll wait.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> You heard it here first!


Figured he didn't mean it literally, nor going for drama


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I hear ya.
> As I mentioned before, I've only actually seen one person IRL refuse to wear a mask into a store this past year, a very angry Puerto Rican lady who declared it "stupid f*****g Grin*o bullshit".
> 
> Obviously, there are more people out there like this, but at least where I live, the number is thankfully miniscule.
> I tend to see a lot more people being labelled "anti-maskers" simply because they question the pointlessness of some of the more ridiculous guidelines, even though they still follow the ones that make sense.


Appreciate this post, and that you haven't seen many not taking precautions, like masks. Not sure if you're judging it on the last year, 10 mos, 8 mos, but have to be honest find that hard to believe.
Many places are dealing with this pandemic better than us (US). In some places that success is mostly voluntary, and in some not so much, like China.
When this whole covid thing broke there was talk of this was made by China. In our highly polarized partisan atmosphere that was quickly dismissed as conspiracy. While I don't see the motive for China to release this on purpose there is some evidence that suggests it doesn't behave like a completely natural virus.
When you/we are fed lies for so long you start to question everything. Sometimes you/me/we just have to trust. As an example. You here ppl say things like closing restaurants and the likes at 9:30 is stupid. It's not like the virus only spreads at night. While the truth is most restaurant kitchens close at 10, then it's mostly drinking, and think most can agree ppl gathering to drinking probably shouldn't be hi on lthe ist of priorities when schools aren't safely open, or safe as could be, if open at all. Not saying ppl shouldn't question authority, but ...Saying /questioning things like that might make a person feel/ sound smart for a minute but in the end only serves to instigate


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There are almost no good questions asked. We have no clue what vaccines do. The person vaccinated might not have symptoms and feel sick but they can still carry the virus and give it to others. The big celebration is about empty promises. They might say you need a booster after 12 months, you need a new shot for that new variant and so on. They started giving the second dose later than they promised because of shortages so the 93% promised protection was bullshit. They said we fallow science and now they do not. Future generations will have to face the invoice. Nothing new. For over 40 years it is all more defecits. Wow in 3 years we will have anti defecit vaccines, youppiiii.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

33red said:


> There are almost no good questions asked. We have no clue what vaccines do. The person vaccinated might not have symptoms and feel sick but they can still carry the virus and give it to others. The big celebration is about empty promises. They might say you need a booster after 12 months, you need a new shot for that new variant and so on. They started giving the second dose later than they promised because of shortages so the 93% promised protection was bullshit. They said we fallow science and now they do not. Future generations will have to face the invoice. Nothing new. For over 40 years it is all more defecits. Wow in 3 years we will have anti defecit vaccines, youppiiii.


Almost every claim made in this post is false or a half truth. It is not even remotely true that we have "no clue what vaccines do." That is quite possibly the biggest crock of crap ever posted to this forum.

A study from Oxford University that I posted a link to a media account about refuted the claim of vaccinated people being asymptomatic carriers. Nobody knows for sure, and the claim "they can still carry the virus and give it to others" is unsupported by any legitimate evidence.

Nobody knows if we will need a booster after 12 months, either. The virus might be eradicated. And basically nobody's studied it for 12 months yet.

I have not seen any credible source state that we will need "a new shot for that new variant." I have seen many credible sources saying the opposite, that the technology the vaccines use is robust and will be very likely to be effective against new strains.

Many people develop substantial immunity from even the first shot, and the efficacy rates from the huge studies performed to get emergency use authorization are not "bullshit" and are widely misunderstood.

As for fiscal policy, color me a bit skeptical that your knowledge of macroeconomics is as strong as your views on vaccines. After all, you appear to have had trouble finding the word "deficit" in the dictionary but you want to lecture us all on them.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

COVID Vaccine Data - OpenVAERS







www.openvaers.com




Established in 1990, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national early warning system to detect possible safety problems in U.S.-licensed vaccines. VAERS is co-managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

twodownzero said:


> Almost every claim made in this post is false or a half truth. It is not even remotely true that we have "no clue what vaccines do." That is quite possibly the biggest crock of crap ever posted to this forum.
> 
> A study from Oxford University that I posted a link to a media account about refuted the claim of vaccinated people being asymptomatic carriers. Nobody knows for sure, and the claim "they can still carry the virus and give it to others" is unsupported by any legitimate evidence.
> 
> ...


Op is not all wrong, or at least we don't know for sure on some points. Until we come up with a vaccine against being a drama queen, take it easy


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

33red said:


> There are almost no good questions asked. We have no clue what vaccines do. The person vaccinated might not have symptoms and feel sick but they can still carry the virus and give it to others. The big celebration is about empty promises. They might say you need a booster after 12 months, you need a new shot for that new variant and so on. They started giving the second dose later than they promised because of shortages so the 93% promised protection was bullshit. They said we fallow science and now they do not. Future generations will have to face the invoice. Nothing new. For over 40 years it is all more defecits. Wow in 3 years we will have anti defecit vaccines, youppiiii.


If you're going to celebrate please do it safely with clapping instead of exclaiming youppiiii


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

In2falling said:


> COVID Vaccine Data - OpenVAERS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, Bush started it, and every president who follow increased its funding, except our last


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Arm&Hammer said:


> LMAO, they are not testing for the flu this year, has nothing to do with mask policy.


That's not correct.

Anyone who presents with flu like symptoms is tested for flu, if flu is negative they are then tested for Covid. If they have a sore throat, they are also tested for strep.

This ^ is the rule out process.

There are still many positive flu cases, just not as many as normal due to precautions taken for Covid and the slightly higher flu vaccination rate this year.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

A friend who is an emergency room doc who has become somewhat an unwilling expert having been in ny (ground zero) and now travels the country to dif hotspots believes yearly covid vaccination will become as norm as flu vaccine are.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Colo Springs E said:


> I did mot mean zero cases or deaths.... my point is there are significantly fewer cases and deaths this year. Not an opinion, a fact.


Well, that's not really even close to what you said.

What does 'significantly fewer' mean in terms of actual numbers?
Maybe you can share a link or two to where you're getting the data that supports your new 'fact'?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Figured he didn't mean it literally, nor going for drama


New leaf? Or just slacking today?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> New leaf? Or just slacking today?


Lol, no. Always try to keep it real, without much of a zeal for drama. You should try it. 
Do you really not believe flu cases are way down? Or do you just not understand why?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Appreciate this post, and that you haven't seen many not taking precautions, like masks. Not sure if you're judging it on the last year, 10 mos, 8 mos, but have to be honest find that hard to believe.
> Many places are dealing with this pandemic better than us (US). In some places that success is mostly voluntary, and in some not so much, like China.
> When this whole covid thing broke there was talk of this was made by China. In our highly polarized partisan atmosphere that was quickly dismissed as conspiracy. While I don't see the motive for China to release this on purpose there is some evidence that suggests it doesn't behave like a completely natural virus.
> When you/we are fed lies for so long you start to question everything. Sometimes you/me/we just have to trust. As an example. You here ppl say things like closing restaurants and the likes at 9:30 is stupid. It's not like the virus only spreads at night. While the truth is most restaurant kitchens close at 10, then it's mostly drinking, and think most can agree ppl gathering to drinking probably shouldn't be hi on lthe ist of priorities when schools aren't safely open, or safe as could be, if open at all. Not saying ppl shouldn't question authority, but ...Saying /questioning things like that might make a person feel/ sound smart for a minute but in the end only serves to instigate


Some places in the US, like where I live, handled it a lot better than others, apparently like where you live (New York right? Nuff said.)

Along the lines of what you said earlier, if you knew someone was lying to you, why did you keep listening and believing?
Personally, I don't rely on shady politicians (that's all of them BTW) to give me medical advice. If you did, that's on you.

As far as stupid guidelines in the form of curfews go, when people from Massachusetts ask whether it 'only comes out at night?', it's not just based on a restaurant curfew.
They actually said no one was allowed out of their homes at night except for work. And school apparently but who the **** is going to school in the middle of the night during a pandemic?
For us, it's not a case of trying to sound smart, it's a case of the guidelines being ridiculous and people drawing the line at sheer idiocy.

"BOSTON - Starting Friday night, Massachusetts residents will be breaking the law if they're out between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m., unless on the way to or from work or school."








Massachusetts is calling for a curfew to curb rising COVID-19 infections. Experts say it's probably not enough.


An overnight curfew for Massachusetts residents is aimed at slowing spread of COVID-10. Experts say it may not be that effective, but it's something.



www.usatoday.com


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Lol, no. Always try to keep it real, without much of a zeal for drama. You should try it.
> Do you really not believe flu cases are way down? Or do you just not understand why?


I believe they are down and why that might makes sense, but don't know if for a fact. 
I don't believe that they are down as low as some people like to make out though (as Nurse Ben says, there are still 'many' cases), and look forward to seeing some actual numbers to back up opinions.

Too dramatic?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I believe they are down and why that might makes sense, but don't know if for a fact.
> I don't believe that they are down as low as some people like to make out though (as Nurse Ben says, there are still 'many' cases), and look forward to seeing some actual numbers to back up opinions.
> 
> Too dramatic?


If you believe cases are down than you must have thought op really meant zero flu cases. I mean if you're not going for drama. To me the op read cases are historically low. Which is true, and understandable. The same way I read Nurse Ben said there are many less cases, while you read many cases. Guess we see what we want to see. And don't wish to drag Nurse Ben in because if you hadn't noticed Ben doesn't seem like he has time for drama


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> If you believe cases are down than you must have thought op really meant zero flu cases. I mean if you're not going for drama. To me the op read cases are historically low. Which is true, and understandable. The same way I read Nurse Ben said there are many less cases, while you read many cases. Guess we see what we want to see. And don't wish to drag Nurse Ben in because if you hadn't noticed Ben doesn't seem like he has time for drama


Quit whining about 'drama'; anyone who's been here more than a couple days knows you're full of ****. 
?

I didn't 'see what I wanted to see', I saw what he actually wrote.



Nurse Ben said:


> *There are still many positive flu cases*, *just not as many as normal*


Just like the other guy actually wrote



Colo Springs E said:


> *People are not presenting with / dying from flu.* Nice try.


Not remotely true.

But while I'm responding to what people actually wrote, you're just going completely off-topic and trying to create 'drama'.
Which, as everyone is aware, a big part of your standard MO. So please, spare us.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Quit whining about 'drama'; anyone who's been here more than a couple days knows you're full of ****.
> ?
> 
> I didn't 'see what I wanted to see', I saw what he actually wrote.


Well now we know it's personal for you. I see many less cases than usual. You see "many less cases". Ok, we established that. So if you want to talk about zero flu cases and things you know but "don't know it fir fact" can we talk about things we know for a fact? I'll go first. I don't know it for a fact but I know it's true many female gym teachers are gay.
Walmart has a lower acceptance rate than Harvard


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Well now we know it's personal for you.


LMAO.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

> Yup, we know what it about with you


NY Times.....
You still cannot face the deadly reality.


----------



## levity (Oct 31, 2011)




----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just a little something to think about:

Viruses tend to mutate, these mutations can be bad for us or good for us.

The current Covi mutations are not good for us, They have led to easier spreading and possibly being more lethal.

Here’s the punchline:

Mutation increase the more a virus is transmitted, so even though we will ultimately control the prevalence of Covid in the USA; likewise in other wealthy nations, less affluent nations will continue to have significant transmission, which will lead to more mutations.

This ^ is a big concern and truly the 500# gorilla in the room.

Don’t lose any sleep over this BUT do consider being supportive when the wealthier nations look to vaccinate folks in poor countries.

Also, the masking and social isolating, that helps with reducing cases, reducing mutation, etc ...

Think of it as being forward thinking 🤔

Now for gawds sake, go ride your bikes!!


----------



## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> Just a little something to think about:
> 
> Viruses tend to mutate, these mutations can be bad for us or good for us.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that post.
My 2 rides are done for today, nap time.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I expect closing schools did more to mitigate the flu numbers than any other of the COVID related policy measures.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Not wasting Vaccine might be a good start.
Especially in places hardest hit.

_Across New York State, medical providers in recent weeks had the same story: *They had been forced to throw out precious vaccine doses because of difficulties finding patients who matched precisely with the state's strict vaccination guidelines *- and the steep penalties they would face had they made a mistake._









After Unused Vaccines Are Thrown in Trash, Cuomo Loosens Rules (Published 2021)


Now, employees who interact with the public, including pharmacy cashiers, qualify. It was the second time in two days that the state amended its rules.




www.nytimes.com





_
Isolated incident? Not a chance, Dr. Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health, told NBC News.
"This kind of thing is pretty rampant," Jha said. "I have personally heard stories like this from dozens of physician friends in a variety of different states. *Hundreds, if not thousands, of doses are getting tossed across the country every day. It's unbelievable."*
Jha said the ER doctor whose story he laid out in a Twitter threadthis week asked to not be identified, but his story, seen by thousands of people, resonated with other medical professionals frustrated by rules and regulations that they say are making it harder to get more Americans vaccinated.









Thousands of Covid-19 vaccines winding up in the trash


It's unclear how many doses have wound up in the trash because many hospitals aren't reporting these numbers for fear of retribution, a leading public health doctor said.




www.nbcnews.com




_


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)




----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)




----------



## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Is flu vaccine good for 6 months because the vaccine loses its effectiveness, or because there are new strains?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Well now we know it's personal for you. I see many less cases than usual. You see "many less cases".


No...I don't see any of your imaginary conversations. 
I see exactly what was said. 
What's cool is that someone was nice enough to write their words down, and with today's technology, we can go back in time and see those words almost like we were there firsthand! 
Amazing times huh!?!? Who'd'a thunk?! ?

Look, here it is again!!!



Nurse Ben said:


> *There are still many positive flu cases*, *just not as many as normal*


Almost like he said what he said, and some people are able to simply read the words that are there without adding their own extra words in or rearranging them or anything!!! 
Crazy right?

Next up, we look up the definition of the word "irony" and see how applies to your recent posts.
?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Not wasting Vaccine might be a good start.
> Especially in places hardest hit.
> 
> _Across New York State, medical providers in recent weeks had the same story: *They had been forced to throw out precious vaccine doses because of difficulties finding patients who matched precisely with the state's strict vaccination guidelines *- and the steep penalties they would face had they made a mistake._
> ...


Like said, knew it would come to NY hate with you, again. A quick search of your assertions reveals it's not only a ny problem. Many states have same issue for a variety of reasons. Including poorly established rules set forth by fed government that states and hospitals must follow, by law. We, the United State, will fix this too. The bigger problem that needs to be fixed is the misleading info, and divide stokers who spew lies and sow bs that actually gets some legs sometimes. Like the talk of COVID was nothing, wash your hands and move along. Boy was that wrong. Hydroxychloroquine.... Not enough ppl would vaccinate. Turns out we can't get enough vaccines fast enough. You posted about ny not accepting vaccines for lack of trust. Then ny had first person in country vaccinated. I couldn't make this stuff up, so thanx for doing it for us. Time has a way or showing what is real, and right, and boy, you have been on the wrong side of just about everything, yet continue to be righteous. Pretty funny, in a sad way.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> View attachment 1915102


You've posted this pic a few times. He was distanced, in a stadium. Sitting next to his wife, and good friend. Was tested multiple times, including the day before, lowered his mask to hydrate, and his friend has a mask on. Not sure what you think this pick proves, other than you got nothing. Nothing new for sure


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> No...I don't see any of your imaginary conversations.
> I see exactly what was said.
> What's cool is that someone was nice enough to write their words down, and with today's technology, we can go back in time and see those words almost like we were there firsthand!
> Amazing times huh!?!? Who'd'a thunk?! ?
> ...


Yeah, amazing, flu cases down. From what I gather way down. And they're not zero.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

CrozCountry said:


> Is flu vaccine good for 6 months because the vaccine loses its effectiveness, or because there are new strains?


Have heard 12 months or longer, effectiveness goes down with variants, and nobody knows for sure


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Yeah, amazing, flu cases down. From what I gather way down. And they're not zero.


Oh is that what you gather?

Sounds accurate and reliable. 
Some solid gathering you've done there. A++

😄


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> You've posted this pic a few times. He was distanced, in a stadium. Sitting next to his wife, and good friend. Was tested multiple times, including the day before, lowered his mask to hydrate, and his friend has a mask on. Not sure what you think this pick proves, other than you got nothing. Nothing new for sure


He certainly was not distanced and he certainly wasn't "hydrating" and any prior test is irrelevant according to his own advice. He was also not staying home or performing essential work. He was at a spreader event ball game.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

theMeat said:


> Like said, knew it would come to NY hate with you, again. A quick search of your assertions reveals it's not only a ny problem


You don't have to search anything. 
It's there in those two links.
Not just NY, and nothing about hate, it's a New York Paper.
It is Science.
But you have to actually read the post before you comment or your credibility takes yet another hit.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> Not wasting Vaccine might be a good start.
> Especially in places hardest hit.
> 
> _Across New York State, medical providers in recent weeks had the same story: *They had been forced to throw out precious vaccine doses because of difficulties finding patients who matched precisely with the state's strict vaccination guidelines *- and the steep penalties they would face had they made a mistake._
> ...


I live in NYS and have seen this news; unreal. The trick is that getting the last dose out of the vial requires a special syringe from my understanding.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> You don't have to search anything.
> It's there in those two links.
> Not just NY, and nothing about hate, it's a New York Paper.
> It is Science.
> But you have to actually read the post before you comment or your credibility takes yet another hit.


Cuomo has done a superb job at managing the spread going back to last year. Restrictions his admin set forth resulted in a significant drop in cases, with little to no help from the feds and gRump.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> He certainly was not distanced and he certainly wasn't "hydrating" and any prior test is irrelevant according to his own advice. He was also not staying home or performing essential work. He was at a spreader event ball game.





OzarkFathom said:


> He certainly was not distanced and he certainly wasn't "hydrating" and any prior test is irrelevant according to his own advice. He was also not staying home or performing essential work. He was at a spreader event ball game.
> View attachment 1915168
> View attachment 1915168


There are literally no people around him, he is outside and within his pod. Stop being so disingenuous.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Review the term “literal”


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> Review the term "literal"


There are figuratively no people around him in that photo.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> Review the term "literal"


There are also literally no people around him in that photo that are not within his personal pod, and especially literally no one within the CDC recommended guidelines of 6' that are not within his personal pod.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> There are literally no people around him, he is outside and within his pod. Stop being so disingenuous.


But is it after 10pm? 
Should they even be allowed out their homes at all?
And shouldn't they be wearing 2 masks? Or is it 3 now?
Why are these people not in jail?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

He is clearly violating his own advice. And Cuomo withheld vaccine under threat of fines and the doctors themselves clearly objected. They were thrown into the trash. He is also attempting to cover up his nursing home fiasco which cost many lives.

Where did the CDC specify a “Pod” exemption at sports events for spectators without masks?


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

rockcrusher said:


> There are figuratively no people around him in that photo.


The virus spreads in exactly this manner as perfectly illustrated in the photos. The science makes that clear.


----------



## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Crankout said:


> Cuomo has done a superb job at managing the spread going back to last year.


The facts clearly refute that nonsense.
The virus spread to the whole country from NY.
Not one bed of the Naval mercy hospital ship that was promptly sent by the President to NYC was used.
The vaccines were produced in record time under an administration that streamlined the process.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

OzarkFathom said:


> He is clearly violating his own advice. And Cuomo withheld vaccine under threat of fines and the doctors themselves clearly objected. They were thrown into the trash. He is also attempting to cover up his nursing home fiasco which cost many lives.
> 
> Where did the CDC specify a "Pod" exemption at sports events for spectators without masks?


If you can go to church and be separated you can go to a sporting event and be separated. You are literally the definition of dog whistle. My god man try to be as smart as you act.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> The facts clearly refute that nonsense.
> The virus spread to the whole country from NY.
> Not one bed of the Naval mercy hospital ship that was promptly sent by the President to NYC was used.
> The vaccines were produced in record time under an administration that streamlined the process.


Maybe you don't understand how virus spreads. Or who knew what and when, and how virus getting to NY could have been halted. Or that the virus came to ny from Europe and ppl that travel from Europe likely land in ny. 
But please, continue your politics, blame game and other nonsense. What's clear is that if you didn't put agenda over reality you might be taken more seriously


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

LMAO. Another day, another sunk cost fallacy.


----------



## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Meat and Rock,
Did you guys see the post SB celebration 
with all the unmasked players hugging and
carrying on right in each other’s faces??
If not, I wouldn’t recommend watching. It might be too much for you.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

downcountry said:


> Meat and Rock,
> Did you guys see the post SB celebration
> with all the unmasked players hugging and
> carrying on right in each other's faces??
> If not, I wouldn't recommend watching. It might be too much for you.


Don't know if i'v seen that vid but have seen a few. Can handle it. Hope the ppl that end up in hospital because of it can handle it too


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

CrozCountry said:


> Is flu vaccine good for 6 months because the vaccine loses its effectiveness, or because there are new strains?


Yes and yes


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm kinda' amazed that the moderators have let this thread stay open, not a bad thing ...


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

OzarkFathom said:


> The facts clearly refute that nonsense.
> The virus spread to the whole country from NY.
> Not one bed of the Naval mercy hospital ship that was promptly sent by the President to NYC was used.
> The vaccines were produced in record time under an administration that streamlined the process.


Cuomo started reacting to the state and NYC's initial cases with increasingly intrusive but necessary measures. At the time, these actions were invasive to most (ex. limiting crowds to no more than 500(!); state of emergency declaration; postponing events like the St Pats parade). Some were done w/DiBlasio.

It was Cuomo who insisted and demanded the public follow CDC guidelines unlike the more conservative states who saw these as infringements on freedom. And having schools and businesses close up in mid to late March.

Sure, he could've been better with other things like this nursing home fiasco.

Though not part of the argument, our then-President did a horrible job in managing it. He encouraged the spread through his actions and words.


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm kinda' amazed that the moderators have let this thread stay open, not a bad thing ...


Eliminating the worst of the trolls is a step in the right direction.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm kinda' amazed that the moderators have let this thread stay open, not a bad thing ...


50+ folks need to be more informed: GOP Rep. Ron Wright dies following Covid diagnosis

It is not something to trifle with. I will moderate it as needed to keep out the politics as much as possible but as you are leading and ensuring that the disinformation is countered it seems like a valuable thread. If it was just a bunch of usual MTBR yahoos it'd have been shut down a long time ago. Not to put the onus on you @Nurse Ben but you are keeping the information straight and to the point.

However come in here and spread your facebook gleaned "information" or antivax bullshit and it will be a quick trip to banville for you.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Crankout said:


> I live in NYS and have seen this news; unreal. The trick is that getting the last dose out of the vial requires a special syringe from my understanding.


That's part of the waste, part of it too much red tape, too many lawyers. Not long ago did ppl start talking about extra doses and who's to blame for the screw up/miscalculation. Only to find out what docs knew was that most meds that get injected come overfilled to allow proper fill of needle, unless you have certain needle that can fill without waste. So docs where doing what they could to spread more doses.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Crankout said:


> Cuomo started reacting to the state and NYC's initial cases with increasingly intrusive but necessary measures. At the time, these actions were invasive to most (ex. limiting crowds to no more than 500(!); state of emergency declaration; postponing events like the St Pats parade). Some were done w/DiBlasio.
> 
> It was Cuomo who insisted and demanded the public follow CDC guidelines unlike the more conservative states who saw these as infringements on freedom. And having schools and businesses close up in mid to late March.
> 
> ...


For sure. Think on the best of circumstances with the smartest most just ppl there'd be mishaps. Understandable, almost expected. That's dif than talking about straight up stupid ego driven and not sure where one of these you mention sits. You're a New Yorker and can probably guess which one I'm referring to


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes and yes


Have you heard anything about docs, staff receiving regular (6 month?) doses ?


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> 50+ folks need to be more informed: GOP Rep. Ron Wright dies following Covid diagnosis
> 
> It is not something to trifle with. I will moderate it as needed to keep out the politics as much as possible but as you are leading and ensuring that the disinformation is countered it seems like a valuable thread. If it was just a bunch of usual MTBR yahoos it'd have been shut down a long time ago. Not to put the onus on you @Nurse Ben but you are keeping the information straight and to the point.
> 
> However come in here and spread your facebook gleaned "information" or antivax bullshit and it will be a quick trip to banville for you.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

theMeat said:


> View attachment 1915311


Zombies don't actually bite you, it is ok, go about your business and keep the economy up!


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> Zombies don't actually bite you, it is ok, go about your business and keep the economy up!


Sorry, I'm still getting the hang of this joke thing. That was a self portrait saying thank you
?


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

theMeat said:


> Sorry, I'm still getting the hang of this joke thing. That was a self portrait saying thank you
> ?


Was like looking in a mirror! I was confused.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> Was like looking in a mirror! I was confused.


Oh, we must look alike it was my self portrait


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

theMeat said:


> Oh, we must look alike it was my self portrait


Internet twins.


----------



## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)




----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

In2falling said:


> View attachment 1915372


That is some impressive health there in that women.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

She is blessed, literally


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Like most of us, I’m past middle age, so I’ve seen enough to know that what goes around comes around.

I’ll admit to being surprised at how the past few years have turned out; if you would have asked me ten years ago, I could never have guessed.

So yeah, here we are, doing what we do.

I do think more would get more done if folks could agree to disagree, but if it was that easy then we wouldn’t be arguing about the past, present, and future 🙄

I find it interesting to hear the opinions of others, years ago I might have gotten upset and argued, but I’ve mellowed with age and experience. My hope is that this mellowing will continue until I no longer get upset about anything; seriously, that is my goal.

So please, let’s keep the dialogue going, do try to temper your posts, much can be said without drawing the ire of big brother. Most of us would get along in real life, I’m sure of it 👍


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Some places in the US, like where I live, handled it a lot better than others, apparently like where you live (New York right? Nuff said.)
> 
> Along the lines of what you said earlier, if you knew someone was lying to you, why did you keep listening and believing?
> Personally, I don't rely on shady politicians (that's all of them BTW) to give me medical advice. If you did, that's on you.
> ...


She says it better than i
"The thinking behind this is that people who are out past 10 p.m. and before 5 a.m., doing things other than grocery shopping or other essential tasks, may be out at bars or restaurants or at events where they are likely to let their guard down and be less likely to wear a mask or social distance. The biggest impact of a curfew is likely that it is a signal about the seriousness of the situation-and how we all need to limit contact with others."


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> She says it better than i
> "The thinking behind this is that people who are out past 10 p.m. and before 5 a.m., doing things other than grocery shopping or other essential tasks, may be out at bars or restaurants or at events where they are likely to let their guard down and be less likely to wear a mask or social distance. The biggest impact of a curfew is likely that it is a signal about the seriousness of the situation-and how we all need to limit contact with others."


If she's saying it better than you could, you should probably consider giving up saying anything. The bars close at 9:30, so locking down the entire state because you think some people are going to be heading bars at 10:00 really is about as stupid a thing as I've ever heard. What are they going to do? Stand outside in big groups and look in the windows?

Even if the bars were open at that time (which they are NOT), maybe the only reason she and her cronies ever leave their houses in the evening is to go to a bar, but what the hell does that have to do the vast majority of people who aren't alcoholics? 
What about people under 21 who can't go to bars. Why aren't they allowed out of their houses?
Or people that don't drink. Or people that drink, but do it outside? It's so dumb it hurts. .

I haven't been in a restaurant or bar in a year, but you agree with these clowns that I shouldn't be allowed to walk my dog up the road at 10:05? Meanwhile, the brewery down the road was packed with a few hundred people drinking from noon to 9:30? But I shouldn't be allowed to go on a night ride of hike? Or wherever or whatever I want, for that matter?

Useless, ridiculous and wildly overreaching. I can't believe anyone thinks this makes any sense whatsoever.
Then again, people regularly make me drop my expectations; the bar's been lowered once more.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> If she's saying it better than you could, you should probably consider giving up saying anything. The bars close at 9:30, so locking down the entire state because you think some people are going to be heading bars at 10:00 really is about as stupid a thing as I've ever heard. What are they going to do? Stand outside in big groups and look in the windows?
> 
> Even if the bars were open at that time (which they are NOT), maybe the only reason she and her cronies ever leave their houses in the evening is to go to a bar, but what the hell does that have to do the vast majority of people who aren't alcoholics?
> What about people under 21 who can't go to bars. Why aren't they allowed out of their houses?
> ...


Not sure what you think the secret power play for encouraging ppl to stay in is.
Thankfully, hopefully, more ppl can understand the concept of essential travel which she said well. Didn't know she was a cronie but if you say so.
Where I live there was some mask and travel restrictions, enforced with fine. Yet among millions not one ticket was issued. If you live in a place where you fear for police when walking your dog at 10:05, you should move


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Not sure what you think the secret power play for encouraging ppl to stay in is.
> Thankfully, hopefully, more ppl can understand the concept of essential travel which she said well. Didn't know she was a cronie but if you say so.
> Where I live there was some mask and travel restrictions, enforced with fine. Yet among millions not one ticket was issued. If you live in a place where you fear for police when walking your dog at 10:05, you should move


The bar has now hit the floor, and apparently is still sinking...
So they are enforced with a fine, but have never been enforced with a fine? Sounds effective.
I'm not afraid of anything, I'm pointing out epic stupidity. Not a single reasonable person could take something like this seriously; dumb stuff like this only serves to reinforce the notion that our 'leaders' are clueless and are throwing out ill-considered, useless guidelines just to appear that they're doing something.

New word for you:

*CRONY*
*noun, plural cro·nies.*
a close friend or companion; chum.

Now please, explain how it makes sense to have a 10:00 curfew to keep people from going to closed bars. 
Try to follow the science (9:30 comes before 10:00, in case that's in question).


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

So they are enforced with a fine, but have never been enforced with a fine? Sounds effective

Yes, it was very effective. So is limiting travels to essential. Has worked in many places.

Oh, I know you’re not afraid of anything, and by your provided definition of cronie, you are more one of my crony’s than she is. Just saying


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

theMeat said:


> So they are enforced with a fine, but have never been enforced with a fine? Sounds effective
> 
> Yes, it was very effective. So is limiting travels to essential. Has worked in many places.


So banning non-essential travel NOT during the hours when everyone is actually out doing it, but rather after everything non-essential is already closed sounds effective to you?

LOL! Dude, really, you're really reaching. Is this personal for you? Are just looking for drama? Have you un-turned your new leaf from a couple pages back? 
😄

Please link to the actual limitations put in place in your state for in-state and local travel and the corresponding data showing a significant drop in infection rates resulting. 
I'm happy to follow your science, if you have any.


----------



## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Turning down the noise in this thread a bit... Yesterday my county finally opened up vaccine availability to those over 65 (had been only 75+). I'm in my early 60s still so don't qualify, but an older riding buddy does. I'm more plugged into the net than he is so I found out exactly when new doses were being scheduled and got him an appointment before they all (quickly) filled up. Even if it's going to be a while before most of us get vaccinated we can help older friends and relatives navigate through the process.


----------



## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> So banning non-essential travel NOT during the hours when everyone is actually out doing it, but rather after everything non-essential is already closed sounds effective to you?
> 
> LOL! Dude, really, you're really reaching. Is this personal for you? Are just looking for drama? Have you un-turned your new leaf from a couple pages back?
> 😄
> ...


Yeah, you know what, nah. Have a good day


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Here are some handy statistics:
The top 4 countries, in order of percent vaccinated are...
Israel, UAE, U.K., U.S.








Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research


Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...




ourworldindata.org





J&J single dose (adenovirus) DNA vaccine - better than initial data would suggest. Dig down to day 49 and it's 100% effective for severe or hospitalized cases. The beauty of this vaccine is it was studied after variants arose, and in the very countries in which they arose:





The bottom line is that the best vaccine is still the first one you can get.

At least among the 3 in wide use + J&J. I'd skip the CoronaVac!


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Crankout said:


> Cuomo started reacting to the state and NYC's initial cases with increasingly intrusive but necessary measures. At the time, these actions were invasive to most (ex. limiting crowds to no more than 500(!); state of emergency declaration; postponing events like the St Pats parade). Some were done w/DiBlasio.
> 
> It was Cuomo who insisted and demanded the public follow CDC guidelines unlike the more conservative states who saw these as infringements on freedom. And having schools and businesses close up in mid to late March.
> 
> Sure, he could've been better with other things like this nursing home fiasco.


I'm not sure I understand the credit New York officials get for dealing with COVID.

What does the data say?
I can't think of a metric that makes them look good compared to, say, Florida...or Texas, after looking at the data as of 10 Feb 2021.

New York deaths and deaths per 1,000,000 are 45,459 and 2,337
For Florida they're ........................................................28,208 and 1,313.... And Florida has more people.

On the vaccination front, Florida is at over 3.2% of the population with 2 doses and N.Y. is at 2.9%.

In New York, the number of deaths among long term care facilities was undercounted by as much as 50%.

I believe the Feds not only built up facilities in New York that weren't utilized, but also sent in a Navy medical ship that was not utilized. Those assets could have been used elsewhere.

In the process, New York did about 50% more damage to its economy - measured as a drop in GDP - than either Florida or Texas with the policies they implemented.
New York, in NYC at least, will have a lost generation of young people who needed to go to school, and didn't, while in Florida, they continued their educations.

I'm not trying to denounce N.Y. authorities, I just don't see any hard data that supports the thesis that they did a good job responding to this crisis.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I'm not sure I understand the credit New York officials get for dealing with COVID.
> 
> What does the data say?
> I can't think of a metric that makes them look good compared to, say, Florida...or Texas, after looking at the data as of 10 Feb 2021.
> ...


NY got hit hard and hit first. Considering that and lack of understanding at the time think leaders did well. Was pretty scary for a while and our gov offered a calming brief daily, sharing what he knew and that was comforting. Looking from the inside out am not aware of NY getting any undue or special credit. Was funny and entertaining watching sycophants become instant cuomo fans when he praised our former prez, and then instant haters when he criticized.
The pop up tent hospital in Central Park was used, and many hospitals set up their own tents that were used. As far as Mercy navy ship it would have been used if necessary, and think it was good for ppl to see it being deployed, even tho in the end was hardly necessary. Given it's a ship that limits where it can go, and given the hot spots at the time think it was where it should have been. Another aspect of the ship was added layers of protocol, travel, and docs being familiar with where they usually work an advantage


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MSU Alum said:


> I'm not sure I understand the credit New York officials get for dealing with COVID.


As Meat demonstrates above, it's got a lot to do with politicization


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> As Meat demonstrates above, it's got a lot to do with politicization


It doesn't have to, as I demonstrated above. And above that.
Sometimes it just makes sense


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

I am paraphrasing a post from the New York Times about exercise (ie running) following the covid vaccine. My experience is that I had no side effects from the vaccine (except mild localized soreness) and my fitness routine did not change.I continued doing my daily crossfit program and daily short run and weekly longrun and mtb rides without any adverse effects:



> One question runners [cyclists] may be wondering about is, "Can I run /ride in the days after getting the shot?" The short answer is yes, if you feel up to it.
> If you're getting vaccinated in the United States right now, you'll receive the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine, in two doses about 28 days apart. You'll probably have soreness at the injection spot. You may also experience fatigue, headache and chills, though this is more likely after the second dose. If you've had Covid-19 already, you have a greater chance of feeling rotten after the first dose, too.
> 
> If you want to run [ ride etc] , go ahead, said Dr. Jordan D. Metzl, a sports medicine physician at Hospital for Special Surgery and frequent Times contributor (his piece on returning to exercise after having the virus is a must-read). He had a sore arm after both doses of the Pfizer vaccine, and said he felt "lousy" the night after his second
> ...


There are links to more articles in this NYT editorial


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Got the first vaccine dose this week. I've never had a flu shot before and I'm not big on meds, but I've seen too many people get really sick from corona and I have some family members at higher risk. Arm was sore for 24 hours and some fatigue for 48 hours, but nothing major and I was back on the bike two days after the shot.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

cyclelicious said:


> I am paraphrasing a post from the New York Times about exercise (ie running) following the covid vaccine. My experience is that I had no side effects from the vaccine (except mild localized soreness) and my fitness routine did not change.I continued doing my daily crossfit program and daily short run and weekly longrun and mtb rides without any adverse effects:
> 
> There are links to more articles in this NYT editorial


I crushed an indoor bike session the day of my 1st shot, but was unusually fatigued that eve and a bit wonky the next day. Shot 2 tends to whack you out on the day after, but fine beyond that.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I am a few days late to the party, but some had mentioned about the lower case numbers for the Flu this year.

I can attest to this being the Case in San Diego for Children. At the Hospital where I work we have 2 different floors in 2 different buildings for the "medical unit", this is the place where patients who have any sort of respiratory disease would stay.

One of those floors was closed down last year and still has not opened up. That is way outside the norm.

Starting in December I am an IT Liaison to the Nursing staff for what is called "winter surge", essentially a way of saying Flu Season where the census goes way up, mostly due to influenza cases. We meet every 2 weeks. This year there has been no visible "surge" and they started cancelling the meetings.

This is anecdotal, but it seems to jive with what other hospitals around the nation are reporting when it comes to seasonal flu admissions.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> I am a few days late to the party, but some had mentioned about the lower case numbers for the Flu this year.
> 
> I can attest to this being the Case in San Diego for Children. At the Hospital where I work we have 2 different floors in 2 different buildings for the "medical unit", this is the place where patients who have any sort of respiratory disease would stay.
> 
> ...


Yeah, my son is a biomathematician (or something - he works for a company making PCR tests and with the CDC) and says that there is the downside of no data on what to design as a flu vaccine next year. Apparently, Australia is one of the first places to incubate these strains and not much is happening down under. If it's a bad flu mutation AND no good vaccine, we could be in trouble.
I think it's all the COVID precautions resulting in very few flu cases.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah, my son is a biomathematician (or something - he works for a company making PCR tests and with the CDC) and says that there is the downside of no data on what to design as a flu vaccine next year. Apparently, Australia is one of the first places to incubate these strains and not much is happening down under. If it's a bad flu mutation AND no good vaccine, we could be in trouble.
> I think it's all the COVID precautions resulting in very few flu cases.


Yep, come early fall we have data from Australia on how the flu season went for them and use it as a gauge for how it might go here.

My personal feeling on the reduction in the Flu has more to do with Schools being closed. I have 2 small kids and they are the WORST at not spreading germs... My son is almost 5 and it starting to mostly remember to cover his mouth when he sneezes or coughs.... but I still have to remind him. Schools are hot beds for germ transfer when there is no pandemic, and they come home and give it to their families.

On another note, just got this company email:


> This afternoon, Rady Children's surpassed 30,000 vaccinations, mostly at our community clinic. That's almost 10,000 more than just over a week ago! These are the total number of shots given to staff and community members since we vaccinated our first staff member on Dec. 15, 2020. Thanks to all involved and for doing your part to help keep our colleagues and community safe and healthy.












I was able to get my Father (66) and my Grandparents (eighties) their first shots over the last 2 weeks. Such a huge sign of relief watching my grandparents get vaccinated, they will be back in a few weeks for their second doses.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> Yep, come early fall we have data from Australia on how the flu season went for them and use it as a gauge for how it might go here.
> 
> My personal feeling on the reduction in the Flu has more to do with Schools being closed. I have 2 small kids and they are the WORST at not spreading germs... My son is almost 5 and it starting to mostly remember to cover his mouth when he sneezes or coughs.... but I still have to remind him. Schools are hot beds for germ transfer when there is no pandemic, and they come home and give it to their families.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Wonder what the word is on when ppl have to be re-vaccinated ( how long it lasts)
Know some that work in schools, Seems when done well/safely not a big spreader of covid. Not as big as I'd a guessed.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

theMeat said:


> Interesting. Wonder what the word is on when ppl have to be re-vaccinated ( how long it lasts)
> Know some that work in schools, Seems when done well/safely not a big spreader of covid. Not as big as I'd a guessed.


We had our monthly department meeting today and the CTO invited a Doctor to join us for the last 10 min for a QnA about the vaccination etc.

She said word in the Epidemiologist community is continuing to lean toward this being more of an annual thing like the Flu Shot. Even those who have already recovered from a case of COVID19 are being encouraged to get vaccinated to make sure you are covered.

On day's like today I feel very fortunate to work in a place where we can have a SME join our meeting for something like this, and Props to our CTO for making that happen.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> We had our monthly department meeting today and the CTO invited a Doctor to join us for the last 10 min for a QnA about the vaccination etc.
> 
> She said word in the Epidemiologist community is continuing to lean toward this being more of an annual thing like the Flu Shot. Even those who have already recovered from a case of COVID19 are being encouraged to get vaccinated to make sure you are covered.
> 
> On day's like today I feel very fortunate to work in a place where we can have a SME join our meeting for something like this, and Props to our CTO for making that happen.


For sure, and thanx for sharing it with us


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Cuomo aide Melissa DeRosa admits they hid nursing home data so feds wouldn’t find out


Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s top aide privately apologized to Democratic lawmakers for withholding the state’s nursing home death toll from COVID-19 — telling them “we froze” out of fear t…




nypost.com





Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Amazing how it almost magically disappears in the summer like the flu 























"An analysis of over 190,000 US SARS-CoV-2 test results shows positivity rate halved with vitamin D levels of 55 ng/ml or higher vs. less than 20 ng/ml"








New Study Shows ~50% Lower COVID-19 Positivity Rate among those with Higher Vitamin D Levels - GrassrootsHealth


An analysis of over 190,000 US SARS-CoV-2 test results shows positivity rate halved with vitamin D levels of 55 ng/ml or higher vs. less than 20 ng/ml Evidence for vitamin D and its importance in fighting COVID-19 continues to mount, with one of the latest studies recently published by Kaufman...



www.grassrootshealth.net





"level below 12 ng/ml had a 6-fold higher risk of severe disease resulting in the need for invasive mechanical ventilation and/or death, and approximately 15 fold higher risk of death."








15 Fold Higher Risk of Death due to COVID-19 with Low Vitamin D Levels <12 ng/ml - GrassrootsHealth


Study from Germany finds greater risk of inpatient hospitalization, disease severity and death due to COVID-19 among patients with vitamin D deficiency



www.grassrootshealth.net


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

WHALENARD said:


> Cuomo aide Melissa DeRosa admits they hid nursing home data so feds wouldn’t find out
> 
> 
> Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s top aide privately apologized to Democratic lawmakers for withholding the state’s nursing home death toll from COVID-19 — telling them “we froze” out of fear t…
> ...


If there is truth to this and other claims he should be and will be impeached and then prosecuted. Perhaps you should start another thread on this since this one is geared towards sharing useful info on the virus. Maybe vitamin D is a fix for this too


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> Yep, come early fall we have data from Australia on how the flu season went for them and use it as a gauge for how it might go here.
> 
> My personal feeling on the reduction in the Flu has more to do with Schools being closed. I have 2 small kids and they are the WORST at not spreading germs... My son is almost 5 and it starting to mostly remember to cover his mouth when he sneezes or coughs.... but I still have to remind him. Schools are hot beds for germ transfer when there is no pandemic, and they come home and give it to their families.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm 68 and slated to get my first dose in early March. I figure by mid April, I'll be good to go for a road trip to Moab.
BTW, the VA (in the U.S.) is vaccinating over 65 nationwide, so if you're in the system, give them a call.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I didn't read through this whole thread (I'm guessing it's a lot of political arguing) but I've had both Pfizer vaccinations now. After the first dose I had a sore shoulder for about 24 hours. After the second shot I had a sore shoulder and felt a little "off" and a bit lethargic for 24 hours. The room was spinning ever so slightly for a couple of hours.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nat said:


> I didn't read through this whole thread (I'm guessing it's a lot of political arguing) but I've had both Pfizer vaccinations now. After the first dose I had a sore shoulder for about 24 hours. After the second shot I had a sore shoulder and felt a little "off" and a bit lethargic for 24 hours. The room was spinning ever so slightly for a couple of hours.


Good for you. I am 63 in Quebec, i guess somewhere in june i will have had 2 shots 2 weeks ago so i might b
e considered _immunized_.
I have no clue if it will be the Pfifer and i guess it will take untill july to know the efficaccy against the 4 main early strains.
Will we be triple masking???
My 88 YO mom is scheduled tuesday 10:30. Maybe in 6 weeks i will be able to see her?


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Magically disappears in the summer? Huh&#8230;


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## Dream Plus (Feb 12, 2004)

Scheduled for 1st round of Moderna vaccine tomorrow. Rollout of schedule web site was lousy, but worked in the end.was surprised to see email from my count in MD this morning. I will be somewhat reassured once fully vaccinated.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Dream Plus said:


> Scheduled for 1st round of Moderna vaccine tomorrow. Rollout of schedule web site was lousy, but worked in the end.was surprised to see email from my count in MD this morning. I will be somewhat reassured once fully vaccinated.


How long does it takes? Is it _fully_ effective 2 weeks after the last shot?


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## Dream Plus (Feb 12, 2004)

Don't know the definition of fully effective. Timing & effectiveness depends on a lot of factors I won't be measuring. Translation of RNA to spike protein, my individual antibody response, type switching, and the vaccine coding versus variants. I'm not going to resume life as before until it's obvious that the pandemic has waned.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

33red said:


> How long does it takes? Is it _fully_ effective 2 weeks after the last shot?


That's about right.
For the single shot, it would be about 50 days, according to the current data (Johnson & Johnson).

Edit: BTW, I'm not disagreeing with Dream Plus. The data is for large groups, so individuals may respond differently. 2 weeks after my second dose, I'm going to go ape-sh*t though because I don't have that much of my life left and I'm going to have fun!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Dream Plus said:


> Don't know the definition of fully effective. Timing & effectiveness depends on a lot of factors I won't be measuring. Translation of RNA to spike protein, my individual antibody response, type switching, and the vaccine coding versus variants. I'm not going to resume life as before until it's obvious that the pandemic has waned.


Most of the employees at the Hospital where I work have been vaccinated, but the policy is still to get screened everyday upon arriving at work and to wear a mask when working near others. Seems odd, but until more is known about how it transmits and if a vaccinated person can carry and re-transmit we are erring on the side of caution.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Most of the employees at the Hospital where I work have been vaccinated, but the policy is still to get screened everyday upon arriving at work and to wear a mask when working near others. Seems odd, but until more is known about how it transmits and if a vaccinated person can carry and re-transmit we are erring on the side of caution.


Ya prevention has been our problem. I live in Quebec and our numbers are the worst. I am not surprised.
Taking care of old people was mainly a woman job 40 years ago and it is the same for sick people.
Has a results they were underpaid so staff was short for years. They stopped hiring so agencies were
sending minimum wage staff to fill in. A sick staff could infect people at 3-5 different places so old
people dropped like flies.
Many studies for decades show that 100$ invested in prevention saves about 900$ for a real saving of 800$.
30 years of promising equal pay and still _woman jobs_ are under paid.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

MSU Alum said:


> 2 weeks after my second dose, I'm going to go ape-sh*t though because I don't have that much of my life left and I'm going to have fun!


That's what I'm kinda of dreading. Millions of vaccinated folks partying like it's 2019, while the rest of us poor unvaccinated pieces of sh*t have to hunker down while another surge spreads around.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

wayold said:


> That's what I'm kinda of dreading. Millions of vaccinated folks partying like it's 2019, while the rest of us poor unvaccinated pieces of sh*t have to hunker down while another surge spreads around.


That is the part many think and talk about. What about the next 10 years? Will there be a big recession? An economic crash?
Will interest rates triple? With everything being global, s*it might get global. Will the money inherited will be spent and keep
enough people working? It might be the middle class being down graded and many will be ex rich countries?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

wayold said:


> That's what I'm kinda of dreading. Millions of vaccinated folks partying like it's 2019, while the rest of us poor unvaccinated pieces of sh*t have to hunker down while another surge spreads around.


If they're vaccinated, how would that lead to another 'surge'?
😒


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> If they're vaccinated, how would that lead to another 'surge'?
> 😒


If we're lucky and the vaccines confer sterilizing immunity then it wouldn't. If, however, the vaccines just provide effective rather than sterilizing immunity (and so far AFAIK there's no good evidence which it is) then all the vaccinated folks become potential vectors if they develop asymptomatic infection. I really hope this isn't the case, but once folks are vaccinated I hope they'll still be masking to protect others until the either the vaccine is proven to be sterilizing or the infection rate dies down to negligible levels.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

wayold said:


> That's what I'm kinda of dreading. Millions of vaccinated folks partying like it's 2019, while the rest of us poor unvaccinated pieces of sh*t have to hunker down while another surge spreads around.


I wouldn't be overly concerned, the vaccinated folks are less likely to get sick, so they're less likely to transmit the virus.

If you continue to practice safety precautions, it shouldn't change much for you.

I really doubt the government will relax precautions until a significant number of people are vaccinated, so safety in restaurants and stores should remain about the same.

Of course, if you're going out to crowded public venues and you're not vaccinated, that suggests you're not really being all that safe ...


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

wayold said:


> That's what I'm kinda of dreading. Millions of vaccinated folks partying like it's 2019, while the rest of us poor unvaccinated pieces of sh*t have to hunker down while another surge spreads around.


Antibody and B-cell immunity will make it very unlikely that the virus will replicate in a vaccinated individual other than in very small amounts, so not enough of a viral load to spread. "Sterilizing immunity" isn't a necessary target to hit. There are vaccinations against childhood diseases that have reduced infections across the board by over 95% that do not confer that level of immunity. 
This isn't like "asymptomatic spreaders". The vaccine doesn't make you asymptomatic, it prevents the replication from taking place to a very high degree by attaching antibodies to the virus and "preprogramming" macrophages to consume them so that the virus isn't able to get into cells to replicate. The polio vaccine is a great example of this.

There will be exceptions, if the vaccine is "only" 95% effective, of course, but it should be rare.
You can still catch COVID, of course, but it would be from someone unvaccinated, so don't let your guard down until you've been vaccinated and waited for a while after the vaccination for your immune system to kick in. It's not instantaneous.

This isn't the first, or the worst, pandemic humanity has faced.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

My vaccine appointment is Thursday. Not sure which one I'm getting and I don't care. I am ecstatic.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> My vaccine appointment is Thursday. Not sure which one I'm getting and I don't care. I am ecstatic.


Yeah....even Sputnik is turning out to be pretty effective!

I'm jealous.

I'll repeat it for the veterans, in the U.S.:
The VA is accepting appointments nationwide 65 and older for vaccinations.


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## Dream Plus (Feb 12, 2004)

Dream Plus said:


> Don't know the definition of fully effective. Timing & effectiveness depends on a lot of factors I won't be measuring. Translation of RNA to spike protein, my individual antibody response, type switching, and the vaccine coding versus variants. I'm not going to resume life as before until it's obvious that the pandemic has waned.


Just a followup. I got the 1st shot and it was super efficient. I'm surprised that all went so smoothly. My County has a rep as backwards. While waiting the 15 minutes post injection, you signed up for round 2 right here and walked out with an appointment. No real side effects, but I only rode the trainer for 30 min after my walk.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

MSU Alum said:


> Yeah....even Sputnik is turning out to be pretty effective!
> 
> I'm jealous.
> 
> ...


Got a call today that the weather delayed the shipment of vaccines and so my shot is postponed. Obviously I'm bummed but the end is near.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

twodownzero said:


> the end is near.


That light at the end of the tunnel is an oncomming train?
No, I know what you mean.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Great article about a local Torontonian who helped save the world from Covid

*"It's likely we'll see another pandemic in the next 20 years": The Toronto scientist who invented the Covid vaccine technology says we need to prepare for the next virus*

Back when he was a high school student in Scarborough, Derrick Rossi predicted that a virus would someday bring the world to its knees. A few decades later, the stem cell biologist and Harvard prof discovered the modified mRNA technology that led to the creation of Moderna-and, eventually, to the world's first two approved Covid-19 vaccines. Rossi left Moderna in 2015, but retains a significant amount of stock in the company, now worth $60 billion. And lately, he's been advising the Canadian government on our future vaccination strategy. Here he tells _Toronto Life_ about how he made his big discovery, and why-gulp-the next pandemic is not a matter of if but when.

*You discovered modified mRNA, the scientific innovation behind both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Maybe we could start with a science-for-dummies explanation of what that is exactly*
Sure. Everybody has heard of DNA and we recognize that that's where our genetic material is, how heredity is passed. What people might not know is that DNA is an incredibly passive molecule; you need active molecules, which are the proteins. People think of proteins as something that comes in their hamburger, but they're also the worker bees of cells, making sure that cellular life, and therefore all life, happens. MRNA is the middle man, the messenger that carries the genetic coding from the DNA so that cells know what protein to make. That's not anything we came up with. Scientists have been aware of the mRNA molecule since the 1950s.

*So what was your discovery then?*
Well, this is where the story gets complicated. Our experiment was actually something different-a project focused on stem cells. As one step in that process, we were trying to figure out if it was possible to inject synthetic mRNA into cells without killing them. After a few false starts, we realized that we could do that by making some modifications, and that's where the name Moderna comes from-modified mRNA. We completed our work and wrote a paper that was heralded in the scientific community.

*And you were named on Time magazine's list of "People Who Mattered" in 2010.*
That's right! We got quite a bit of attention. But, like I said, the larger project was about stem cells, and everyone wanted to talk about that rather than the modified mRNA. I was getting calls from Big Pharma companies asking me about stem cells, and I'm thinking, _Don't they see what's really important here?_ I knew if we could manufacture mRNA, we could make cells produce whatever protein we wanted whenever the heck we wanted. And that meant we could intervene on any aspect of life, including human diseases and illness.

*Were vaccines always part of the Moderna game plan?*
Not when we started. Generally, vaccines aren't a very good business model. They tend to have low profit margins, and they aren't sold for a lot of money, since governments pay for them. Our focus out of the gate at Moderna was on genetic diseases, thousands of which have their underpinnings in a bad stretch of DNA, which makes a bad stretch of mRNA, which makes a bad stretch of proteins. I had always imagined that the first application would be addressing some rare childhood disease, and being able to help a few thousand families. But as you know, and as most of the planet knows, the first two modified mRNA products to receive emergency authorization were these two Covid vaccines-the one by Moderna and the one by Pfizer.

*How are mRNA vaccines different from traditional ones?*
Let's start with how all vaccines are the same-they work by getting your immune system ready to mount a response against an invader by introducing that invader into your body in a form that your body will be able to handle. It's almost like a training session to prepare for the real thing. With traditional vaccines, the invader is expressed by a weakened or inactivated version of the actual virus-in this case SARS-CoV-2-whereas with the mRNA vaccines, we're injecting the body with modified mRNA that will instruct cells to create that specific protein on the viral surface. For Covid-19, that's the spike protein we all know from images.

*And does that difference make mRNA vaccines better? Faster? Safer?*
In traditional vaccines, weakening or deactivating the virus takes time. We can produce synthetic mRNA much faster. Last year, for example, a lot of the world's vaccine experts were saying there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that we were going to have a vaccine ready to go in 12 months, that it would be more like five years, two years minimum. And that whole time I'm thinking, _Well, yeah, but they don't know the new technology._ Think about the traditional approach to the seasonal flu, which has always been to take a best guess at what that year's strain will be, create a vaccine accordingly and hope for the best. With mRNA, we can wait and create a vaccine based on the strain that emerges.

*You will forgive me for noting that you don't look like a typical science guy. You have a soul patch, you seem to own a lot of rock T-shirts.*
It's funny, because I was doing a webinar with the California Institute of Regenerative Medicine the other week, and they asked me what I would have done if I hadn't been a scientist. I said I probably would have been a rock and roller. I'm into a lot of obscure punk. I spend a lot of time digging and exploring. I quite like finding new music that I haven't found before.

*Not entirely dissimilar to your work as a scientist.*
That's true. And honestly, I knew what I wanted to do pretty early on. I took a class in molecular biology way back when I was a student at Dr. Norman Bethune High School in Scarborough, and from there I knew what I wanted to do. I have these memories of sitting around with my high school friends doing what it is that high school students do. We'd get into these deep discussion about how the world was going to end. You'd have one guy saying it was going to be an asteroid, another saying nuclear war. I was always the one who said pathogen.

*Fast forward to the early weeks of 2020. Are you thinking, Well, this is it. It's finally arrived?*
Ha! Well, I wouldn't say I saw this as an extinction event, but I was definitely paying attention to the data. Originally we had a fatality rate around two per cent, which was not Ebola level, but pretty goddamn high. I'd left Moderna in 2015 to start other biotech companies, but I still hold a large stock position, so I was hearing from from them that it looked bad. But the flip side was that this is a great application for the mRNA technology, so let's mobilize. Which of course they did.

*What about your own day to day? Were you the guy stocking up on toilet paper? Making work-from-home contingency plans?*
I retired from academia a couple of years ago, so I wasn't having to make major changes. We had planned a family trip to Africa, which we had to cancel. People were saying, "Don't worry, just go, it's not a big deal, this virus isn't even in Africa yet." But I was like, "It will be."

*And were your kids like, "Come on, Dad-why do you have to be uptight science guy?"*
There was a bit of that, but it was clearly the right call. We have a house in New Hampshire that's in the woods, totally removed, so we went there and we stayed for six months. Either my wife or myself would go to the grocery store once a week, but other than that it was total isolation. My wife is also a biologist, so everything that came into our house was squirted down or rigorously scrubbed. We came back to Boston because my daughters are back in school. And I really did have every intention of retiring two years ago, but since last winter I've spent pretty much every day on the phone doing interviews, radio, advocating for science. Obviously that was a major issue in America.

*As a Canadian living in what was then Trump's America, were you paying attention to our Covid response? Did you ever consider heading home?*
Of course I was watching. I was pretty proud to see Canada handle it so much better than what was happening here in the U.S., though I guess it's hard to imagine things being handled worse. I love Canada and I miss it. I haven't been back to Toronto as much as I used to since my parents passed, and then of course in the last year I haven't been able to get back. I am a huge Leafs fan, so in the past I've been that guy who flies back and forth during playoff season. I'll be back to cheer for my team when we can do that. In terms of a Covid response, I think Canada has done a good job. Actually, I've been advising both the federal and Ontario governments on vaccine strategy.

*It's fair to say our rollout has been slower than we'd like. You've got an inside track at Moderna. Where did we go wrong?*
Canada did a good job of securing doses. And Canada was able to pay for its Moderna doses upfront, which has been hugely important to getting the infrastructure in place. The current bottleneck is a manufacturing issue, and I don't know that there's much that can be done about that. I think the focus needs to be on creating the infrastructure for domestic production. Find a large empty building in Mississauga or Scarborough and get to work on it. It will take a while, and it might even miss most of this pandemic, but guess what?

*I don't like where you're going here&#8230;*
There is going to be another pandemic, and next time we can be prepared. Right now, billions of vaccines is a tall order. Imagine if in the future if we had production facilities in countries all over the world and we could do a billion doses in a month?

*Can we go back to this next pandemic thing? Do you mean like in our lifetime? In the next 20 years?*
I can't say when exactly, but I'd say the next 20 years is likely. Just look at the recent history of epidemics like SARS, MERS. It's one of the realities of living in a global society where people fly all over the world. And if you look at what's happening with variants-that's probably something we're going to be dealing with for the next few years.

*Moderna is a private company. Has your involvement made you a rich man?*
I don't really like to talk about the money part of it, but yes. I have done well.

*Like, "I'm buying a fancy new sports car" well? Or "I'm buying a boat to house my fancy sports car collection" well?*
Well, like I said, I don't want to talk about this. But if you look at the current valuation of the company, it's somewhere around $60 billion.

*Okay, fair enough. Being somewhat removed now, how do you process the part you've played in this potentially civilization-saving science?*
Are you asking if I pat myself on the shoulder? Listen, even before the pandemic, I was very proud of the success of Moderna. People used to congratulate me and say, "Aren't you proud? You've achieved so much." I used to say, "Not until we make a product that really changes people's lives. I'll be able to hang up my hat when we do that." But now that that's happened, I don't feel like I'm finished. I'm really pleased. There has been so much loss and devastation, and vaccines are the way out of this.

*Do your daughters know that Dad is a hero?*
Not really. Though my daughter Lumi plays hockey, and the other day one of the hockey moms told me how her daughter was at the dinner table talking to her dad and said, "Why can't you do something cool like Lumi's dad?" That was kind of cool.









"It's likely we'll see another pandemic in the next 20 years": The Toronto scientist who invented the Covid vaccine technology says we need to prepare for the next virus


A decade ago, the Scarborough biologist Derrick Rossi discovered modified mRNA, a revolutionary new cell technology. Now his creation is about to save the world




torontolife.com


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Arm&Hammer said:


> edited


LMAO. What a flaming dumpster full of skunk vomit that article is.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Arm&Hammer said:


> edited


You can't be serious. You didn't know globalresearch is a conspiracy theory tank. I would say think tank, but...
I'm sure this will get plenty of weak minded followers. Can I interest you in a Lysol injection?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I got the first dose (Moderna) on Friday. On Saturday, I hit the slopes pretty hard with no issues. On Sunday at about 1100 developed a fever that lasted about 4 hours (wondering if that correlates with the spike proteins being dumped into my system - seems about right) that went away on its own. Monday, feeling fine.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> I got the first dose (Moderna) on Friday. On Saturday, I hit the slopes pretty hard with no issues. On Sunday at about 1100 developed a fever that lasted about 4 hours (wondering if that correlates with the spike proteins being dumped into my system - seems about right) that went away on its own. Monday, feeling fine.


I head for my 2nd shot next week, and am planning on some fatigue etc the following day.


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Had my 1st Pfizer shot last Friday. No ill effects at all. Rowed(erg) twice over the weekend, and skied today. We shall see how shot #2 goes in early March.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

My father in law got his 2nd does of the pfizer last week. Said he had mild to no side effects. It made me wonder, if you've already had covid, then later got the vaccine, would the side effects not be as bad? Since your body already 'knows' how to fight covid, it would follow that it wouldn't react as harshly to the vaccine. 

As for my father in law, he never got an antibody test so there's no way to really know if he had it previously asymptomatic.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

walkerwalker said:


> My father in law got his 2nd does of the pfizer last week. Said he had mild to no side effects. It made me wonder, if you've already had covid, then later got the vaccine, would the side effects not be as bad? Since your body already 'knows' how to fight covid, it would follow that it wouldn't react as harshly to the vaccine.
> 
> As for my father in law, he never got an antibody test so there's no way to really know if he had it previously asymptomatic.


My understanding is that it is more likely that the second dose of vaccine will have side effects. That doesn't mean they will be bad, just that it's more likely they will occur. Based on that observation, I'd guess that getting the vaccine after having had COVID would generally lead to greater side effects. But, it's so variable individually, that it's probably hard to predict.

There's some new data that's kind of interesting on the two dose vaccines. The efficacy of the first dose was calculated at around 52%. But that efficacy was for the entire (in the case of Moderna) 28 days or so between doses. During the first 10 days or so, you wouldn't expect any immunological efficacy because it takes that long for the immune response to kick in. I think they went back and calculated efficacy for days 14 through 28, prior to the second dose, and came up with an efficacy of about 92% for that period.

If the second dose really is just to increase the duration of immunity, I could see changing the procedure to having the second dose more like 4-6 months later. That would have the added benefit of allowing more people to get at least one dose early on (the logistics of that are simplified) and possibly extending immunity.

Interesting stuff, for sure! Dr. John Campbell has regular updates on this sort of information on YouTube.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

walkerwalker said:


> My father in law got his 2nd does of the pfizer last week. Said he had mild to no side effects. It made me wonder, if you've already had covid, then later got the vaccine, would the side effects not be as bad? Since your body already 'knows' how to fight covid, it would follow that it wouldn't react as harshly to the vaccine.
> 
> As for my father in law, he never got an antibody test so there's no way to really know if he had it previously asymptomatic.


It's my understanding that the common side effects occur less in older folks.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Side effects vary, it differs from person to person, try not getting too hung up on it, the side effects from the vaccine only last at most a couple days, it's not like you're starting a new relationship


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)




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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Side effects vary, it differs from person to person, try not getting too hung up on it, the side effects from the vaccine only last at most a couple days, it's not like you're starting a new relationship


I turned into an alligator and can hear bill gates speaking to me in my head. That is normal right?










Maybe Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was set in 2021?

i kid, i kid.

My grandparents get the second does of Pfizer tomorrow, I am so excited for them. I really hope the side effects are minimal for them. After they have a few weeks to let it settle in I need to make a trip out to their house and fix a computer issue I was going to help with right before the lockdown started. I am already vaccinated so I think I am okay to go into their home for an hour. I will wear a mask while there just to be extra careful.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> I turned into an alligator and can hear bill gates speaking to me in my head. That is normal right?
> 
> View attachment 1918025


You may be joking, but I have patients who believe in the lizard people conspiracy, it's really kinda scary.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> You may be joking, but I have patients who believe in the lizard people conspiracy, it's really kinda scary.


Not much crazier than some of the stuff purported by major religions. 
I guess when over 80% of the population believes in supernatural beings, it's not all that surprising that some of them end up looking like lizards.
Hell, 45% of Americans believe in ghosts. At least "only" 13% believe in vampires. 
Crazy crazy stuff.


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## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> You may be joking, but I have patients who believe in the lizard people conspiracy, it's really kinda scary.


Keith Richards looks like a lizard.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)




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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> My grandparents get the second does of Pfizer tomorrow, I am so excited for them. I really hope the side effects are minimal for them. After they have a few weeks to let it settle in I need to make a trip out to their house and fix a computer issue I was going to help with right before the lockdown started. I am already vaccinated so I think I am okay to go into their home for an hour. I will wear a mask while there just to be extra careful.


They are vaccinated and you are too. Are you concerned about giving them something other than COVID?
I'm guessing they'd like to see your smiling face!

Here is a discussion of the newest data on the Pfizer vaccine.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

My wife and I had our second Moderna shot yesterday. For those interested in the effects of the second vaccine, they are about zero from our experience. Mild headaches and some body aches quickly relieved by a couple Tylenol. Other people we know have experienced similar effects. 

Ah, but the dreams! There's the rub. 

My wife dreamed of finding paper with beautiful pictures and colors and meeting an old man who explained what they were in a language she did not understand and gave her more. She feels she found paper money.

One of my dreams was so much more bike related. I was riding my favorite mountain bike trails on my road bike. I passed a girl, said hello, and rode on. Later she caught up with me. For some reason, I looked down and I was using my Chester flat pedals on the road bike but I was riding barefoot and not experience any pain from the pins.

It doesn't seem I can add anything else.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

A very powerful documentary posted in the NYT Feb 25, 2021. that accurately presents a snapshot of the intensity of care being provided for patients in ICU. As a nurse manager in a high risk department of the hospital, I can relate to the basic knowledge, skills and professionalism required keep patients and veterans safe in Long Term Care. What we do today is helping someone enjoy life a little longer and has lasting meaningful impact on others. Wear your mask, sanitize your hands and practice social distancing to protect yourself, your significant others and community. And get vaccinated.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Whut!!!??? Been away for awhile. Last I was here these discussions were banned. 92 yo mother with comorbidities finally got her first shot a week ago, Pfizer. She didn't report any side effects except for a slightly sore arm. My wife and I head in tomorrow AM for our first Moderna shot. We're hoping a side effect will be making us less antisocial.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I got my initial COVID vaccine injection Friday 5pm (Moderna).
By the time I'd arrived home, my arm hurt but not too bad.
Next morning (Saturday) it hurt quite a bit more. Stayed that way all day. I took acetaminophen, went riding.
ATM it's 6:30am Sunday morning (36ish hrs post-injection) and the arm pain is substantially worse.
I sound like a whiner. Sorry.
=sParty

P.S. Going riding today, too. Life goes on.

EDIT/UPDATE: Monday morning (day 3) — arm feeling better but still sensitive. Let’s just say I wouldn’t want a buddy to greet me with a punch in the shoulder yet. I’m surprised that injection impacted me as much as it did. I usually shrug this kind of thing off. P.S. Yesterday’s ride was good. Going again today.


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## Aquilon (Apr 3, 2008)

Moderna. Round #1, no problems. Arm a bit sore on days 2-3, comparable to a tetanus shot. Round #2, arm was much more sore than round one beginning about an hour after the shot. Felt fine otherwise the rest of that day (had the shot in the morning, around 9AM). Then shortly after going to bed it was like a train hit me. Or a good OTB crash. Chills, fever, headache, joint and body aches and pain. Kept me up all night, lasted about 12 hours. Tired and run-down the next day from lack of sleep. Back to normal the following day.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

My initial vaccine was a few weeks ago but got canceled due to supply chain issues. I scheduled with another provider for Thursday morning.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

This was understood in 1919. Now we're just rediscovering it. There is so much about school design (roughly post 1970) that is not conducive to this. Many classroom (and offices) don't have windows! Get outside and enjoy the outdoors


















Why Opening Windows Is a Key to Reopening Schools (Published 2021)


A simulation of airflow in a real New York City classroom shows how simple ventilation and filtration can reduce the probability of coronavirus exposure.



www.nytimes.com


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I was pleased to see on the news this morning that they're now estimating that they'll have enough vaccines for every adult in the U.S. by the end of May. Distribution is another thing I suppose, but I'd love to get a shot before summer.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cyclelicious said:


> This was understood in 1919. Now we're just rediscovering it. There is so much about school design (roughly post 1970) that is not conducive to this. Many classroom (and offices) don't have windows! Get outside and enjoy the outdoors
> 
> View attachment 1919080
> 
> ...


Yeah, the school where I substitute teach has a LOT of classrooms without windows. Or, they have windows that don't open. I've told them I'm not comfortable covering classes again until I'm fully vaccinated. I'm sure they've been getting a lot of that because in their messaging to substitute teachers, they're heavily touting some filtration system that they installed. Sorry. With my health history, I'm not gambling on that.

I've been eligible for a vaccine in my state for awhile because I'm school staff. But my county has next to no vaccines and it's HARD to get one even if you're eligible. The waiting list is over 55k long, and they're only vaccinating about 2k per day. When they started vaccinating school staff, they only started vaccinating people who were on specific approved lists. As a substitute teacher, those lists didn't include me. I started checking nearby counties. I could schedule an appt in Charlotte, almost 3hrs away, but not for another month or month and a half.

My wife got in at a Walgreens in SC as an essential worker on Sat, but something changed and by the time I checked, I could not. I've been hearing about problems with Walgreens' system in other places, too, so I think it's a company-wide problem. I ended up getting an appointment in TN for today (Moderna vaccine). I got said appointment only 2 days in advance to the actual. I dunno wtf is going on with distributing this thing and why it's so hard to get in some places but not others. There was a car ahead of me in line with NC plates that was full and they were ALL getting vaccinated. A friend of mine in a very rural county in NC is in the next group and was able to get on the waiting list in TN, but not in NC. He doesn't think his county is getting any vaccines. They've stopped sharing any information about vaccinations there.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> Yeah, the school where I substitute teach has a LOT of classrooms without windows. Or, they have windows that don't open. I've told them I'm not comfortable covering classes again until I'm fully vaccinated. I'm sure they've been getting a lot of that because in their messaging to substitute teachers, they're heavily touting some filtration system that they installed. Sorry. With my health history, I'm not gambling on that.
> 
> I've been eligible for a vaccine in my state for awhile because I'm school staff. But my county has next to no vaccines and it's HARD to get one even if you're eligible. The waiting list is over 55k long, and they're only vaccinating about 2k per day. When they started vaccinating school staff, they only started vaccinating people who were on specific approved lists. As a substitute teacher, those lists didn't include me. I started checking nearby counties. I could schedule an appt in Charlotte, almost 3hrs away, but not for another month or month and a half.
> 
> My wife got in at a Walgreens in SC as an essential worker on Sat, but something changed and by the time I checked, I could not. I've been hearing about problems with Walgreens' system in other places, too, so I think it's a company-wide problem. I ended up getting an appointment in TN for today (Moderna vaccine). I got said appointment only 2 days in advance to the actual. I dunno wtf is going on with distributing this thing and why it's so hard to get in some places but not others. There was a car ahead of me in line with NC plates that was full and they were ALL getting vaccinated. A friend of mine in a very rural county in NC is in the next group and was able to get on the waiting list in TN, but not in NC. He doesn't think his county is getting any vaccines. They've stopped sharing any information about vaccinations there.


Sounds like you're in NC (maybe SC)? Also sounds like you've got it figured out, but if something changes things seem to be going pretty smoothly in Guilford County. My (teacher) wife got her first shot last Saturday. When they opened up vaccines for the rest of the essential workers Wednesday I was able to go online and schedule an appointment 5 minutes away for Saturday evening.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)




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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> Sounds like you're in NC (maybe SC)? Also sounds like you've got it figured out, but if something changes things seem to be going pretty smoothly in Guilford County. My (teacher) wife got her first shot last Saturday. When they opened up vaccines for the rest of the essential workers Wednesday I was able to go online and schedule an appointment 5 minutes away for Saturday evening.


Yep. NC. Buncombe County. It seems the more rural you are, the harder it is to get the vaccine. Buncombe is still not vaccinating all of Group 3, even though it's open at the state level. Still restricting it to only teachers on the lists. My friend is in Mitchell County. He's in group 4, which is "supposedly" able to start getting vaccinated on March 24, but he's not holding out any hope. He's on a wait list in TN for when they start scheduling his group (he's 1c over there).

The piecemeal signup process in NC sucks hard. For me to register in TN, I just go to the TN dept of health website, and it shows all of the government-organized sites in the state, so I can see what neighborhing counties offer (not the private companies like Walgreens, who have their own systems). TN is doing a weird thing by splitting things up by 1st shot and 2nd shot. The location where I went yesterday is a 1st shot only location, so I have to go elsewhere for my 2nd. And I have to pay attention to which vaccine is being given at each. I have to make my reservation according to which shot I got (Moderna).


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

My folks are rural Buncombe and both have had 2 doses of the Pfizer (I believe). I understand they were kinda at the right place at the right time though. They're high risk and gather there was simply 2 doses left where my father was getting some of his cancer meds. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

My dad came down and got his second dose today! Stoked for him!


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

There are vaccines around in SoCal if you know where to look. I've been able to sign up friends and, most recently, my wife (a teacher) - but I'm not yet eligible myself. Just as a test I scheduled and then cancelled one for myself yesterday, so unless supplies totally go to sh*t I should be good to go whenever they decide ordinary 60-somethings are deserving.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

WHALENARD said:


> My folks are rural Buncombe and both have had 2 doses of the Pfizer (I believe). I understand they were kinda at the right place at the right time though. They're high risk and gather there was simply 2 doses left where my father was getting some of his cancer meds.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


The people I know who actually got it in Buncombe County definitely seem to have been lucky more than anything.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

This week is a good time to check for appointments if you're eligible. With the J&J approval, there is a window where there will be an influx. This is according to our governor in NY, but I'm assuming it could apply elsewhere....there will be an initial large batch of J&J vaccine this week, then a lull in production, followed by ramping up again. As a result, a few sites in New York State will be open 24/7 this week until that initial batch runs out.

I'd guess this is because J&J has been manufacturing ahead of time in anticipation of FDA approval, meaning they have a stock pile ready to go. They are not typically allowed to do this, but exceptions have been made for covid. Once that runs out, it will be on a regular production schedule. However, supposedly at the direction of Biden and the defense production act, Merck has agreed to help manufacture the J&J vaccine, which will contribute to the ramping up again.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

As of March 8, Summit County Utah is opening up vaccines to those over 50.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

walkerwalker said:


> This week is a good time to check for appointments if you're eligible. With the J&J approval, there is a window where there will be an influx. This is according to our governor in NY, but I'm assuming it could apply elsewhere....there will be an initial large batch of J&J vaccine this week, then a lull in production, followed by ramping up again. As a result, a few sites in New York State will be open 24/7 this week until that initial batch runs out.
> 
> I'd guess this is because J&J has been manufacturing ahead of time in anticipation of FDA approval, meaning they have a stock pile ready to go. They are not typically allowed to do this, but exceptions have been made for covid. Once that runs out, it will be on a regular production schedule. However, supposedly at the direction of Biden and the defense production act, Merck has agreed to help manufacture the J&J vaccine, which will contribute to the ramping up again.


I heard some talk about this on the radio yesterday on my way home from getting my shot. Sounds like there's anticipation about higher production of the moderna and pfizer vaccines, too. they said PA had begun adding appts. I thought I heard some mention of TN, too, but didn't catch any details.

NC has already said how many J&J doses it's getting, but no indication yet about local allocation.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> Yep. NC. Buncombe County. It seems the more rural you are, the harder it is to get the vaccine. Buncombe is still not vaccinating all of Group 3, even though it's open at the state level. Still restricting it to only teachers on the lists. My friend is in Mitchell County. He's in group 4, which is "supposedly" able to start getting vaccinated on March 24, but he's not holding out any hope. He's on a wait list in TN for when they start scheduling his group (he's 1c over there).
> 
> The piecemeal signup process in NC sucks hard. For me to register in TN, I just go to the TN dept of health website, and it shows all of the government-organized sites in the state, so I can see what neighborhing counties offer (not the private companies like Walgreens, who have their own systems). TN is doing a weird thing by splitting things up by 1st shot and 2nd shot. The location where I went yesterday is a 1st shot only location, so I have to go elsewhere for my 2nd. And I have to pay attention to which vaccine is being given at each. I have to make my reservation according to which shot I got (Moderna).


I'm in rural Nevada, we have no issues with getting vaccines.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm in rural Nevada, we have no issues with getting vaccines.


It's different in NC.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I've still got my old work ID (law enforcement) so I could go down and get the shot anytime but I'm in no rush. Maybe 2025 or so. I haven't had a flu shot since they stopped forcing us too in 2011. Guess what? I haven't had the flu either. The only thing that would expedite me getting a vaccine that hasn't been properly vetted will be if my daughter get's her Army rotation in Germany extended and they require proof of the vaccine to travel abroad. Luckily, she rotating back to the US in July for the time being.


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> We're starting to vaccinate the Tier Two folks, >70yo, I volunteered for a shot clinic this weekend, 1200 shots available.
> 
> I got my second shot today, feeling great, two weeks from now I'll be unleashing my super powers!
> 
> ie we're going to eat inside a restaurant ?


I got my first shot last Friday. Other than my arm being sore for a couple days, no bad effects.

I've heard from people who are paramedics administering the vaccine and have received the vaccine themselves that the second one tends to be worse. They also say staying well hydrated as in lots of water, Gatorade, Pedialyte, Liquid IV, etc. helps lessen the effects.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Got my 2nd round on Wednesday, and was exhausted yesterday. No other side-effects, though. 

I'd suggest drinking plenty of water afterward and the following day.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ElTortoise said:


> I got my first shot last Friday. Other than my arm being sore for a couple days, no bad effects.
> 
> I've heard from people who are paramedics administering the vaccine and have received the vaccine themselves that the second one tends to be worse. They also say staying well hydrated as in lots of water, Gatorade, Pedialyte, Liquid IV, etc. helps lessen the effects.


After my second dose of Moderna:

The first night I woke up with the chills.

The next day I felt okay in the morning but got super tired and was running a mild fever, went back to bed for half the day.

After the first 48 hours was up I was back to normal.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

My girlfriend and I signed up here in tx on a waiting list early in the week and a few hours afterwards we were able to set up appointments for our first shots two days later. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> It's different in NC.


oh trust me, I got twenty five years living in the south, saying it's "different" down there is like suggesting Vegas gets a little warm in the summer ?

first two questions I was asked when I started a new job in Knoxville: what church do you attend? what do you think of them Vols?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

k2rider1964 said:


> I've still got my old work ID (law enforcement) so I could go down and get the shot anytime but I'm in no rush. Maybe 2025 or so. I haven't had a flu shot since they stopped forcing us too in 2011. Guess what? I haven't had the flu either.


be sure to let us know how that works for you, my brother is your age, rolled the dice, did fine, sick for a week.

on the other hand, my wife is a primary care provider, she has had a few healthy patients in their forties and fifties die, so it's a risk.

500k dead from the virus
zero dead from the vaccine


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

wayold said:


> There are vaccines around in SoCal if you know where to look. I've been able to sign up friends and, most recently, my wife (a teacher) - but I'm not yet eligible myself. Just as a test I scheduled and then cancelled one for myself yesterday, so unless supplies totally go to sh*t I should be good to go whenever they decide ordinary 60-somethings are deserving.


I'm in SoCal too. The county has them for free. I also work in the operating room so I can get one at work, but I've been off for a year because of no elective procedures. It's been a ghost town there. I've been skirting the flu shot for a decade and will fully retire if the vaccine is required. I had COVID and it was nothing but three days of hell. Less than a week later I was partying in Europe.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> oh trust me, I got twenty five years living in the south, saying it's "different" down there is like suggesting Vegas gets a little warm in the summer ?
> 
> first two questions I was asked when I started a new job in Knoxville: what church do you attend? what do you think of them Vols?


That's not what I meant, though there's some truth to it. If you're not from the south, it can certainly be some culture shock. I simply meant that vaccine availability isn't the same in NC. There's a legitimately short supply and getting your hands on it means either you've worked hard and searched widely for it or you've gotten lucky. I searched widely. There seems to be a great deal of variability from county to county, and unless you "know" someone/something, then you won't necessarily know which counties have better availability than others.

Something TN is doing much better than NC (surprising, I know) is centralizing appointments and giving you a one-stop search tool for them. In NC you have to search county-by-county. I got my first shot in one county (that site was a 1st shot-only vaccination site), and made my appt for my 2nd in another one. Was easy to find the appts on their website (though it took 24hrs after I got my 1st for the system to start showing 2nd appt times).


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

My sister is a retired RN and has volunteered to administer the vaccine in the county Asheville is located in so she'll be getting vaccinated to do so.

My wife got it Friday before last. The next day she told me she was feeling fine. Then late Sunday she declared her kidneys had been sore and her pee dark ever since the shot, despite drinking a lot of water. She made an appointed Monday morning with a doctor, the cancelled it 15 minutes later, declaring she felt fine.

I've noticed a number of you mentioned drinking a lot of water but haven't seen anything about kidney issues. She is very sensitive to medicine, though.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> be sure to let us know how that works for you, my brother is your age, rolled the dice, did fine, sick for a week.
> 
> on the other hand, my wife is a primary care provider, she has had a few healthy patients in their forties and fifties die, so it's a risk.
> 
> ...


I expect it to work out the same way not getting the flu shot has all these years. Riding mountain bikes and pretty much anything we do outdoors is a risk. I broke my femur riding dirt bikes at Mammoth and the doctor said my fracture missed my femoral artery by 2mm, obviously I would have bled out if I severed it. I fractured my neck (C1 & C2) and was told by the specialist that 40% or people with my injury die from asphyxiation, 40% end up quadriplegics and the other 20% are fine...I'm still riding.

I've had a few ex-work associates die from Covid so I know it a real issue but my daughter is a nurse, my DIL is an ER nurse, my niece is an ER NP and her husband is an ER doctor. I know for a 100% fact that Covid numbers are manipulated and I'm sure you do as well but you keep throwing out any number you want. As far as deaths from the vaccine, I think you better check with the CDC as last I checked, over 1300 people have died after receiving the vaccine. You know, a vaccine that was not put thru the rigorous FDA testing of Zantac that was later found to be rather harmful. My wife works in the Biotech field so I'm very familiar with the number of steps/phases to get a drug approved.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

k2rider1964 said:


> I expect it to work out the same way not getting the flu shot has all these years. Riding mountain bikes and pretty much anything we do outdoors is a risk. I broke my femur riding dirt bikes at Mammoth and the doctor said my fracture missed my femoral artery by 2mm, obviously I would have bled out if I severed it. I fractured my neck (C1 & C2) and was told by the specialist that 40% or people with my injury die from asphyxiation, 40% end up quadriplegics and the other 20% are fine...I'm still riding.
> 
> I've had a few ex-work associates die from Covid so I know it a real issue but my daughter is a nurse, my DIL is an ER nurse, my niece is an ER NP and her husband is an ER doctor. I know for a 100% fact that Covid numbers are manipulated and I'm sure you do as well but you keep throwing out any number you want. As far as deaths from the vaccine, I think you better check with the CDC as last I checked, over 1300 people have died after receiving the vaccine. You know, a vaccine that was not put thru the rigorous FDA testing of Zantac that was later found to be rather harmful. My wife works in the Biotech field so I'm very familiar with the number of steps/phases to get a drug approved.


Interestingly enough if you scroll up further, you will read that ZERO people have died from this trusted and safe vaccine and the manipulating media has certainly hit the silent button.

I work at a hospital, but luckily in a building that's not attached and I don't ever have to go near the Covid flr. which is now down to 13 POS. Covid patients, from 166 on 1-7-21. I can get the vaccine anytime I want, but I'm in no hurry and I'm passing for now, just like I passed on the flue shot for the past 6 years or so. I used to get the flu shot when I worked on the floors and had to enter patient rooms, but no need for it these days, considering I haven't had the flu in the past 22 years.

Back in July I relieved my co worker for the next shift, only to find out that evening he started showing symptoms and was infection with Covid19. I used the same computer and touched door handles and everything else he touched that day, so I was up close and personal with contracting it. I was off the following 2 days and only when I returned to work, I then found out that my co worked was off for 2 weeks and I had to read between the lines of why. I was directly exposed, but due to patient confidentiality my supervisor couldn't directly tell me. What a joke this was and California finally did something right and changed this law Jan.1 if you are exposed with Covid at the work place.


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## tag1260 (Jan 24, 2021)

Got my second dose of Moderna. Never, ever, been so sick in my entire life. Chills, fever, pain, threw up stuff the neighbors ate. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.


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## Carve It Up (Jun 24, 2014)

After being quite careful I tested positive for Covid in December, which I am sure I picked from my son who works in a grocery store and at a local take out pizza place. I had 3 days of a miserable experience over christmas, including fevers up to 104, chills, body aches, and lost my taste and smell. As an educator ready to get students back into school, I finished my 2nd shot of Moderna on Thursday. Both rounds gave me some mild fever and chills and lots of fatigue. I feel good now getting many miles on the bike, and feeling good about being back in the classroom.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

There is such a diverse and personal reaction to the vaccine. Since the vaccine is, not exactly giving you sars-cov-2 but rather teaching your body how to fight it, I wonder if you're reaction to the vaccine correlates to how severe your case would be if you'd caught covid. Like, Tag1260 had a bad reaction to the vaccine, does that mean if they had actually caught covid it would have been very severe?

My dad and my best friend both got first shot of pfizer today. I'll have to follow up with them soon to see how they're doing.


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## tag1260 (Jan 24, 2021)

I read where reactions to the Pfizer are usually on the first dose and the moderna is on the second. 

I heard both that like you said it could be how it would have affected me but also heard I might have been recently exposed and have it in my system. Kinda like the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

tag1260 said:


> I read where reactions to the Pfizer are usually on the first dose and the moderna is on the second.
> 
> I heard both that like you said it could be how it would have affected me but also heard I might have been recently exposed and have it in my system. Kinda like the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.


We've been administering Pfizer since December. There are only a few reported side effects from staff receiving the vaccine following the second dose. Interestingly we've vaccinated over 400 veterans in our long term care facility (average age is 97) 10 of those veterans are on my units and are over the age of 100 (the oldest is 108). There have been a couple of reports of some headaches amongst some vets (3 vets in total from my units). We haven't lost one vet in our facility due to covid or from the vaccine.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

walkerwalker said:


> There is such a diverse and personal reaction to the vaccine. Since the vaccine is, not exactly giving you sars-cov-2 but rather teaching your body how to fight it, I wonder if you're reaction to the vaccine correlates to how severe your case would be if you'd caught covid. Like, Tag1260 had a bad reaction to the vaccine, does that mean if they had actually caught covid it would have been very severe?
> 
> My dad and my best friend both got first shot of pfizer today. I'll have to follow up with them soon to see how they're doing.


It appears that the younger you are, the more likely you are to have a reaction (even though the likelihood is slim). Also, the younger you are, the less likely you are to suffer greatly from the infection. Based on that, I'd guess the correlation between strong reactions to the vaccine and what would have been a bad covid infection outcome is weak.

Here's part of the data:


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Harold said:


> Yep. NC. Buncombe County. It seems the more rural you are, the harder it is to get the vaccine. Buncombe is still not vaccinating all of Group 3, even though it's open at the state level. Still restricting it to only teachers on the lists. My friend is in Mitchell County. He's in group 4, which is "supposedly" able to start getting vaccinated on March 24, but he's not holding out any hope. He's on a wait list in TN for when they start scheduling his group (he's 1c over there).
> 
> The piecemeal signup process in NC sucks hard. For me to register in TN, I just go to the TN dept of health website, and it shows all of the government-organized sites in the state, so I can see what neighborhing counties offer (not the private companies like Walgreens, who have their own systems). TN is doing a weird thing by splitting things up by 1st shot and 2nd shot. The location where I went yesterday is a 1st shot only location, so I have to go elsewhere for my 2nd. And I have to pay attention to which vaccine is being given at each. I have to make my reservation according to which shot I got (Moderna).


My in laws and my wife's brother and his family are out that way, they live in Haywood County. My wife said her brother and his wife (teachers) found their vaccine through the Atrium Health website. You don't have to be with them, you can create a login and it will search statewide for availability. Might be worth a shot. Her parents got theirs through the Haywood County Health Dep't. They were on a wait list and got a call that they had 2 hours to get to the fairgrounds for their shots, but both have had their first and have an appointment for the second now. Good luck!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MTB_Underdog said:


> My in laws and my wife's brother and his family are out that way, they live in Haywood County. My wife said her brother and his wife (teachers) found their vaccine through the Atrium Health website. You don't have to be with them, you can create a login and it will search statewide for availability. Might be worth a shot. Her parents got theirs through the Haywood County Health Dep't. They were on a wait list and got a call that they had 2 hours to get to the fairgrounds for their shots, but both have had their first and have an appointment for the second now. Good luck!


Yeah, spotty. Gotta go through each county health dept. Maybe through each health provider. And maybe you'll have tiny notice. Depending on what I'm doing, 2hrs to the Haywood County Health Dept wouldn't be happening.

Glad I got my first already, and that I have my appt for my 2nd. Disappointed it didn't happen more locally than it did, but glad I got it at all right now.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

First shot of Moderna, sore arm. 2nd shot some body chills and fatique but the sore arm wasn't as bad. Three days later I did a 36 mile ride with 5000' of climbing.

Personally if I had unknowingly been exposed and then became an asymptomatic carrier and passed it on to others including family members I would feel horrible. It's not about me, rather it's also about some accountability, and doing it for others. I just don't get the anti-vaxxer rationale but carry on.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

natas1321 said:


> My girlfriend and I signed up here in tx on a waiting list early in the week and a few hours afterwards we were able to set up appointments for our first shots two days later.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


You'll need them down there in Texas.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

Very true. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I am so glad I don't have to worry about Polio, or Small Pox.......


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

k2rider1964 said:


> I expect it to work out the same way not getting the flu shot has all these years. Riding mountain bikes and pretty much anything we do outdoors is a risk. I broke my femur riding dirt bikes at Mammoth and the doctor said my fracture missed my femoral artery by 2mm, obviously I would have bled out if I severed it. I fractured my neck (C1 & C2) and was told by the specialist that 40% or people with my injury die from asphyxiation, 40% end up quadriplegics and the other 20% are fine...I'm still riding.
> 
> I've had a few ex-work associates die from Covid so I know it a real issue but my daughter is a nurse, my DIL is an ER nurse, my niece is an ER NP and her husband is an ER doctor. I know for a 100% fact that Covid numbers are manipulated and I'm sure you do as well but you keep throwing out any number you want. As far as deaths from the vaccine, I think you better check with the CDC as last I checked, over 1300 people have died after receiving the vaccine. You know, a vaccine that was not put thru the rigorous FDA testing of Zantac that was later found to be rather harmful. My wife works in the Biotech field so I'm very familiar with the number of steps/phases to get a drug approved.


I think you're missing my point: You will get the virus, that's how it works, if not now, sometime in the following "season".

If you know the virus is more lethal than the vaccine, it kinda makes sense to cover your bases, esp if your are senior..

COVID is very different from the flu: far more lethal, far more complications, far more transmittable.

But I get your reluctance, I have plenty of clients who are refusing the vaccine and I have a few family members who are refusing the vaccine.

The 1300 folks who were reported to have died after taking the COVID vaccine did not die as a result of taking the vaccine, they died of other medical issues. A dinosaur is a lizard, but not all lizards are dinosaurs.

And no, I do not think the COVID related deaths numbers are manipulated, but I do think there is more than one way to view deaths attributed to a single cause, esp if there are other medical conditions. How can anyone know if a person would have survived if they had not gotten COVID?

Hindsight is fine way to approach many things, but once your dead, your dead.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> I think you're missing my point: You will get the virus, that's how it works, if not now, sometime in the following "season".
> 
> If you know the virus is more lethal than the vaccine, it kinda makes sense to cover your bases, esp if your are senior..
> 
> ...


Also, if there are enough people who continue to get infections, it may be enough to generate substantial mutations; substantial enough to overcome the immunity others have gained through either getting the virus, or getting the vaccine. It just doesn't make sense to not get the vaccine at this point.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Rather than waste a bunch of energy on folks who don't want the vaccine, how about just letting the folks who are literally begging for it get it a bit sooner. 60-somethings in CA are still stuck at home waiting our turn while lots of open appointments sit unused. I tried again today and 3 different local drugstores had appointments and vaccine available (but not for me). I won't take an appointment away from someone ahead of me in priority, but these slots are just going by without takers.

Doesn't seem to be much point in any policy that has us vaccinating at anything less than full capacity.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Like others, I have never gotten the flu shot and don't even like taking aspirin but I have seen too many healthy people with no preexisting conditions (including high-level athletes) become very ill from covid. I got the first pfizer shot 3 weeks ago and just had a sore arm for 24 hours. After the second shot, I had some body aches and a low fever for 24 hours, and then I was fine. Our country is so divided on every issue right now that somehow we have managed to politicize a virus and vaccine. I'm looking forward to MTNB trips in the near future and will still mask to protect others.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I saw just a quick blurb on the local news this morning that there's a S. Africa strain of the virus that is more resistant to the vaccines we currently have. That's a bit discouraging.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

lol. got a phone call from the county yesterday late afternoon saying that my name was on a list of educators eligible for the vaccine. My county, fwiw, is not opening to full "group 3" until tomorrow, regardless of the governor's statement that opened the full group a week ago, due to limited supply of vaccines.

Not sure if they were going to give me a limited amount of time to get to the vaccination site to actually receive it or not. I told them I already got my 1st shot elsewhere, so they took me off their list.

it would have been REALLY NICE if they'd checked for my name on the list when I called initially to ask. I might have been willing to wait another week if I had known I'd have been able to get it locally.

TN is now vaccinating people with preexisting medical conditions. a friend of mine with a history of strokes got his appt for a week from yesterday. NC has said it won't open up for those folks (group 4, here) until March 24. And of course the way things have been going, my county would probably be lagging another 2 weeks behind the rest of the state. and his county an even bigger question mark. I'm glad he's got his appt. soon, we'll be able to start counting down the days that our two households will be able to get together for dinner sans masks (under the new cdc guidance). we haven't seen each other in a year.

my folks are getting there with theirs. my mother got her first one awhile ago as a "health care provider" since she works closely with kids who have various disabilities. my father is eligible, but is still searching for an appt that he can work with on his schedule (probably not searching super hard if I know him). so hopefully we'll be able to see them late spring or early summer or so. my wife's parents won't get vaccinated, period. they're high risk, so I don't think we'll be seeing them for awhile still.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm at the point where I'm close to not giving 2 fuggs about those unwilling to get vaccinated. We can't let that small group stop the rest of us from returning to some normalcy. It's on them to battle the illness if they contract it. They key is getting the majority to get vaccinated. I'm hoping to toss my masks into the firepit come summer....


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Talked to my mom last night. She and dad just got their second shots and so far, just sore arms. She also said my sister found out that though she would be administering shots, she would not be given one unless there are left over shots at the end of the day. She has decided to assist in another capacity where she won't be in such close proximity to a bunch of people.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

I finally got mine last week (Pfizer/BioNTech). Sore arm for 24 hours. Perfectly fine now and can't wait for round 2.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I expect there's an inclination for some people to try not to get into databases, though we're all in so many now, that it hardly matters.
Every telemarketer on the planet knows about me anyway!

For those of you who have had the first (or only, or both) shot, did you get into the VAMS (TMFA) database?
Vaccine Administration Management System.


Login Template Title


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> I expect there's an inclination for some people to try not to get into databases, though we're all in so many now, that it hardly matters.


Those same people should probably be refusing to use any digital communications, no web browsers, no social networking, no email, no cell phones and should only pay for items with cash. I bet they don't do any of those things, nor have any idea just how much of their personal data they volunteer (essentially) publicly.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

If people are refusing the vaccine because they don't want to be in a database, they are in for a rude awakening. In my line of work we can learn anyone's personal information, social media, family info, and dark web info (including email passwords) in minutes. Even simple Google searches will reveal most of this info. Our personal and often professional data is sold hundreds of times a day.

Interesting article in Rolling Stone shares research that suggests that the most resistant demographic group to the vaccine is white republicans, 56% of whom are unsure or will not receive the vaccine (40,000 respondents):









Why Are Black Communities Being Singled Out as Vaccine Hesitant?


Positioning vaccine distrust as a problem specific to African Americans is not only inaccurate and unjust — it’s also harmful




www.rollingstone.com


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> I expect there's an inclination for some people to try not to get into databases, though we're all in so many now, that it hardly matters.
> Every telemarketer on the planet knows about me anyway!
> 
> For those of you who have had the first (or only, or both) shot, did you get into the VAMS (TMFA) database?
> ...


Let me rephrase this, since the point appears to have been overlooked:

For those of you who have had the first (or only, or both) shot, did you get into the VAMS (TMFA) database?
Vaccine Administration Management System.


Login Template Title


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Then there's this. Makes no sense.



https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article249661548.html


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Shark said:


> Then there's this. Makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article249661548.html


Do they have to be tobacco "cigarettes"?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Same with type-2 diabetes. I'd wager a large portion of the comorbidities, in the under 60 sect, were lifestyle too. Infact it's likely the death and infection rate in the states were largely due to our amazing health and institutions. We should probably spend more money, that'll fix it. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

MSU Alum said:


> Do they have to be tobacco "cigarettes"?


they can be lies. and then go get vaccinated.

at any rate these vaccines will eventually be as available as flu shot....
hang tight you will all get yours eventually if you want one


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

New Observer is flaming garbage. Flush that one.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Crankout said:


> I'm at the point where I'm close to not giving 2 fuggs about those unwilling to get vaccinated. We can't let that small group stop the rest of us from returning to some normalcy. It's on them to battle the illness if they contract it. They key is getting the majority to get vaccinated. I'm hoping to toss my masks into the firepit come summer....


I understand why some might feel the way you do, but it is a bigger issue than that. There are some individuals with underlying medical conditions and allergies to certain medicines that wont be able to get the Vaccine, maybe not ever, and they are in danger from the virus if a "heathy" person does not get the vaccine, contracts it and spreads it.....

Hopefully enough people get vaccinated to eradicate COVID, but I doubt that will happen.

That said, Polio and Small Pox were eradicated due to vaccination, so there is hope.

If there was a vaccine for Cancer I wonder if there would be so much resistance to it......


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Googling the cigarette priority shows many many NC and national news outlets reporting the same.

I was basing my tangent on this.








CDC's COVID-19 vaccine guidelines prioritize people with type 2 diabetes over type 1. Why?


The CDC’s interpretation of risk differs from the decision made by UK health officials to include both type 1 and type 2 diabetes in its list of conditions that pose higher risk after COVID-19 infection.




www.pbs.org





Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

drich said:


> Interesting article in Rolling Stone shares research that suggests that the most resistant demographic group to the vaccine is white republicans, 56% of whom are unsure or will not receive the vaccine (40,000 respondents):


First off, LOL at considering Rolling Stone a good source for unbiased information. That's truly amusing.

But if you're gonna suckle from that teat, note that the article goes on to contradict the claim above, as it says that 62 percent of black adults between 18 and 44 years old were also in the resistant camp. Probably not a lot of republicans in that demographic I'd venture, and even fewer white ones.

"Black adults 60 years of age and older are more willing to be vaccinated against Covid-19: 68 percent plan to receive the vaccine, compared with 38 percent of Black adults between 18 and 44 years old."


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

Just saw that here in iowa, smoking is a qualifier for preexisting condition as of 2 days ago, WOW!

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Here's some interesting, and (it would appear) contradictory info from the CDC website as of today:

*Information on how well the vaccine works*

The J&J/Janssen vaccine was 66.3% effective in clinical trials (efficacy) at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 illness in people who had no evidence of prior infection 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine. People had the most protection 2 weeks after getting vaccinated.
The vaccine had high efficacy at preventing hospitalization and death in people who did get sick. No one who got COVID-19 at least 4 weeks after receiving the J&J/Janssen vaccine had to be hospitalized.
Early evidence suggests that the J&J/Janssen vaccine might provide protection against asymptomatic infection, which is when a person is infected by the virus that causes COVID-19 but does not get sick.
CDC will continue to provide updates as we learn more about how well the J&J/Janssen vaccine works in real-world conditions.
1. "People had the most protection 2 weeks after getting vaccinated."
2. "No one who got COVID-19 at least 4 weeks after receiving the J&J/Janssen vaccine had to be hospitalized."

It might be tempting to think that you can consider yourself fully vaccinated 2 weeks after the one J&J/J vaccine. I don't think that's exactly what they're saying. It'll be interesting to see if they come out soon with more guidance.

3. "CDC will continue to provide updates as we learn more about how well the J&J/Janssen vaccine works in real-world conditions."


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MSU Alum said:


> It might be tempting to think that you can consider yourself fully vaccinated 2 weeks after the one J&J/J vaccine. I don't think that's exactly what they're saying.


Definitely not. Sounds like you've still got a ~35% chance of getting it, just less likely to go to the hospital if so.
And of course, you can still spread it, and the fact that it reduces symptoms may make it more likely for people to not realize they are infected and contagious.
Gotta be careful of cultivating a false sense of security.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Definitely not. Sounds like you've still got a ~35% chance of getting it, just less likely to go to the hospital if so.
> And of course, you can still spread it, and the fact that it reduces symptoms may make it more likely for people to not realize they are infected and contagious.
> Gotta be careful of cultivating a false sense of security.


That is not what efficacy means. The 95% for Pfizer/BionTech doesn't mean you have a 5% chance of "getting it." It means that 20 times more people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period.

The actual percentage of people in the Pfizer trial who got COVID-19 despite the vaccination was 8 out of over 20,000 people, or to put it in the terms you want to use, .04%. No, that isn't a typo.

Public health officials are being overly cautious. It's about time they start telling people that they can ease up on the restrictions if they're vaccinated. The CDC started doing so this week, but I'm hoping as the vaccine becomes more widely available, that we see more of that.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Definitely not. Sounds like you've still got a ~35% chance of getting it, just less likely to go to the hospital if so.
> And of course, you can still spread it, and the fact that it reduces symptoms may make it more likely for people to not realize they are infected and contagious.
> Gotta be careful of cultivating a false sense of security.


you can still spread it if you are sick.

At this point anyone who knows they are sick and still ventures outside into the public to spread germs is a jerk.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> That is not what efficacy means. The 95% for Pfizer/BionTech doesn't mean you have a 5% chance of "getting it." It means that 20 times more people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period.
> 
> The actual percentage of people in the Pfizer trial who got COVID-19 despite the vaccination was 8 out of over 20,000 people, or to put it in the terms you want to use, .04%. No, that isn't a typo.
> 
> Public health officials are being overly cautious. It's about time they start telling people that they can ease up on the restrictions if they're vaccinated. The CDC started doing so this week, but I'm hoping as the vaccine becomes more widely available, that we see more of that.


I'm confused by the terminology I guess. So what does ~66% efficacy mean? From your explanation, it means that twice as many people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period, so that would mean it cuts the risk about in half, correct?


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm confused by the terminology I guess. So what does ~66% efficacy mean? From your explanation, it means that twice as many people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period, so that would mean it cuts the risk about in half, correct?


No, it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. The measles vaccine has an efficacy of 88%, but you probably have never met someone in the recent era who got measles.

The Israeli study looked at 1.2 Million people, 600k in the control group and 600k vaccinated. The sample was generally older and sicker than the people reading this. Toward the end of the study, you are able to observe that the new infections dropped to basically nothing. After day 35, there were only 4 new infections in a sample of nearly 600,000 people.



https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765#figures_media



You have to think of it not only in terms of total number who got the infection, (4460/596,618 = .75%) but also compare how few new infections there are once immunity sets in. For example, if you consider day 28 and later, there are only 55 new infections in that sample of 596,618 people, which is .009% of the total in that group. Compare that to the unvaccinated group, where there were 325 new infections, nearly 6x that same number.

Comparing extremely small numbers is difficult, but the vaccines are highly, highly effective. They greatly reduce the incidence of infection. And if we were to consider only symptomatic infection, the numbers even smaller.

Efficacy only tells you the comparison between the control group and the vaccinated group. It does not tell you how likely you are to get the infection because the effect of immunity--to greatly reduce the number of people who become infected and are then able to infect others--massively reduces the possiblity that anyone--vaccinated or unvaccinated--gets the infection.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm confused by the terminology I guess.


Welcome to the club!
I'm also a member in good standing.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Nurse Ben said:


> The 1300 folks who were reported to have died after taking the COVID vaccine did not die as a result of taking the vaccine, they died of other medical issues.











Utah woman, 39, dies 4 days after 2nd dose of COVID-19 vaccine; autopsy ordered


SALT LAKE CITY (KUTV) - During a KUTV investigation into COVID-19 vaccine side effects and where to report them, we found four reported deaths, filed by Utah families and their caregivers to the CDC’s Vaccine Adverse Reporting System. One case stood out, a 39-year-old single mom from Ogden who...




wset.com


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

In2falling said:


> Utah woman, 39, dies 4 days after 2nd dose of COVID-19 vaccine; autopsy ordered
> 
> 
> SALT LAKE CITY (KUTV) - During a KUTV investigation into COVID-19 vaccine side effects and where to report them, we found four reported deaths, filed by Utah families and their caregivers to the CDC’s Vaccine Adverse Reporting System. One case stood out, a 39-year-old single mom from Ogden who...
> ...


I guess if you have McDonald's for lunch and die in a car accident on your way back to the office, McDonald's must have caused your death, right?


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Just this evening my local news reported two folks were dead after a car accident. The one driver just got the vaccine, was pulling out of the vaccination site and failed to yield. I guess people will say that the vaccine killed him, and the other driver. Or maybe it will be reported as a nursing home death? I can't keep up with crazies anymore.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

"No link between COVID-19 vaccine and 4 Utahns who died after shots, medical examiner says"
March 10 at 0645








No link between COVID-19 vaccine and 4 Utahns who died after shots, medical examiner says


Among the more than half a million Utahns who have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine, 154 people had bad reactions that have been reported to a federal database, The Salt Lake Tribune reports.




www.fox13now.com





It's just not very likely the vaccine caused the deaths.

Edit: That doesn't mean it's impossible.

There is an ongoing data collection process for vaccine adverse side effects. If you're interested in contributing, or have had side effects, you can sign up at:
VAERS - Report an Adverse Event


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Got my 2nd Pfizer shot yesterday. So far nothing tangible as far as side effects. I didn't have any with the 1st shot either.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Well, one thing that has come out of all of this is that medical folks are lousy at explaining things to non-medical folks.

My folks got their second shot of the Moderna vaccine a few days ago. Dad (87) had no side effects, Mom (84) had a headache and felt rundown a couple of days but is feeling better.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

My wife got the J&J yesterday and about 7-8 hours later developed chills and a mild fever (~100F). Seems fine this morning.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

twodownzero said:


> No, it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.


I used tried following your explanation with nothing but the numbers changed (95 down to 66)

5+95=100
100/5=20



twodownzero said:


> The 95% for Pfizer/BionTech doesn't mean you have a 5% chance of "getting it." It means that 20 times more people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period.


So for J+J that would be

34+66=100
100/34=~3

So per your explanation, that would mean that "3 times more people in the unvaccinated group than the vaccinated group contracted the infection during the trial period"?
Which would be the same thing as saying for every 3 in the control group that got it, 1 in the vaccinated group did. 
So whatever the odds/chance of contracting it before vaccination have been reduced by 2/3s.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

In2falling said:


> Utah woman, 39, dies 4 days after 2nd dose of COVID-19 vaccine; autopsy ordered
> 
> 
> SALT LAKE CITY (KUTV) - During a KUTV investigation into COVID-19 vaccine side effects and where to report them, we found four reported deaths, filed by Utah families and their caregivers to the CDC’s Vaccine Adverse Reporting System. One case stood out, a 39-year-old single mom from Ogden who...
> ...


So a woman with Liver disease dies of liver disease. That sucks for her and her family, sorry to hear it.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Because I don't want to start another thread and this one has behaved very well for a while I was watching Adam Savages youtube channel where people send in questions about his Mythbuster days, this one caught my eye;

Things he learned that most impacted his daily life, mostly about biological things:





And the actual test of the simulated runny nose he references:





I think this is the sort of thing that needs to be shown to the anti-maskers and those who just refuse to stay home when they are sick with anything. I have said it before, but one thing this pandemic has taught me is I will never go in public again with even the slightest runny nose.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

the one ring said:


> My wife got the J&J yesterday and about 7-8 hours later developed chills and a mild fever (~100F). Seems fine this morning.


Pretty common reaction from my experience.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Interesting stuff in this thread.

Regarding "efficacy", I think part of the problem is that the term can be defined differently, in different trials. And, efficacy as applied during a trial, may become defined differently once the trial is over and data begins to come in, in the real world application. Efficacy in a trial covers a different period with different targeted outcome and in the case of J&J/J, it appears that "protection" against bad out comes as time goes by, increases. So it's a bit of a moving target.

4:10 or so (but the whole video is good) 




We will always have pandemics, diseases and so forth. This one is fairly mild, in human historical terms. For the H1N1 in the 1918 -1920 period, corrected for population in the U.S., total deaths today would have been between 1.7 million and 2.5 million (.5% to .8% of the population). 
Right now, the Case Fatality Rate for the U.S. military (young, generally healthy) is 0.15% Based on Worldometer row 57 U.S. military - total deceased (305) / total recovered (196,711).


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Crankout said:


> Pretty common reaction from my experience.


Update: I heard a racket, went to see what was going on and saw she was "lecturing the porcelain punchbowl." Nausea is an uncommon but possible side effect of the J&J.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

I hope Biden is right about May. I'm someone (along with my wife) that has been to work every single day since this started. She deals with the public. And we are not close to receiving the vaccine yet because we are healthy and in our early 50's. We have friends that have been working from home for months that have long since been vaccinated since they are in a different category, yet not exposed to anyone. It's just frustrating, maybe because they brag about it on Facebook as they have been "working" from home for months, meanwhile we have been considered essential enough to trudge to work, but not essential enough to vaccinate.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

nOOky said:


> I hope Biden is right about May. I'm someone (along with my wife) that has been to work every single day since this started. She deals with the public. And we are not close to receiving the vaccine yet because we are healthy and in our early 50's. We have friends that have been working from home for months that have long since been vaccinated since they are in a different category, yet not exposed to anyone. It's just frustrating, maybe because they brag about it on Facebook as they have been "working" from home for months, meanwhile we have been considered essential enough to trudge to work, but not essential enough to vaccinate.


I feel for you, all the social media bragging annoys me. There is no point to post about your vaccination, just upsets and frustrates those who can get it yet.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

nOOky said:


> I hope Biden is right about May. I'm someone (along with my wife) that has been to work every single day since this started. She deals with the public. And we are not close to receiving the vaccine yet because we are healthy and in our early 50's. We have friends that have been working from home for months that have long since been vaccinated since they are in a different category, yet not exposed to anyone. It's just frustrating, maybe because they brag about it on Facebook as they have been "working" from home for months, meanwhile we have been considered essential enough to trudge to work, but not essential enough to vaccinate.


There's a strong logic behind vaccinating the younger, mobile, social, working population first.









Why COVID-19 vaccines should prioritize 'superspreader' people


A team of experts argues that after taking care of essential workers, COVID-19 vaccinations should be given to the greatest transmitters of the virus, who are mostly the young.




www.pri.org













Younger People Get Vaccines First in Indonesia’s Unusual Rollout


Indonesia plans to vaccinate its young working-age population against the coronavirus before the elderly, in contrast to much of the world that’s planning on putting its vulnerable older people first in line.




www.bloomberg.com


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Harold said:


> There's a strong logic behind vaccinating the younger, mobile, social, working population first.


There is. I think epidemiologists will be studying this for a while. Part of it rests on answers to questions such as, "what are the chances of certain age groups getting the virus in viral loads high enough to effectively transmit it"? If you can establish that there is an age range (or any grouping) where people are effective spreaders, that would be a good place to start, early on in the epidemic. Once the virus is truly endemic, as it is now, it might become best to concentrate on groups most likely to be most adversely affected. Lots of "lessons learned" to come out of this, for sure!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The covid and the vaccines have common points. Lots of discussions about the wrong questions.
How many vaccines will the _nice fallowers_ get in the next 5 years?
Why is each individual not permitted to choose wich vaccine she/he gets?
I can choose what car i buy, obviously we are all paying for the vaccine but no choice??
What about people who accepted to be vaccinated first, they were expecting the second dose in 2 weeks
it is now delayed to 16 weeks in some area, that is a breach of contract, how much is the compensation??


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

33red said:


> The covid and the vaccines have common points. Lots of discussions about the wrong questions.
> How many vaccines will the _nice fallowers_ get in the next 5 years?
> Why is each individual not permitted to choose wich vaccine she/he gets?
> I can choose what car i buy, obviously we are all paying for the vaccine but no choice??
> ...


You can chose. You may have to wait if the one you want isn't available, but here, we have Moderna, J&J/J and Pfizer.
You don't have to get it at all, but I don't really understand why someone wouldn't.

We haven't seen these kinds of delays, at least not in Utah. You get scheduled, once you're next in line, and 28-30 days later you get the second dose, unless it's J&J/J.
Actually, I guess i was delayed for my second dose. Originally it was scheduled for 19 March at 0900. I was notified that was changed to 19 March at 1230.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

33red said:


> The covid and the vaccines have common points. Lots of discussions about the wrong questions.
> How many vaccines will the _nice fallowers_ get in the next 5 years?
> Why is each individual not permitted to choose wich vaccine she/he gets?
> I can choose what car i buy, obviously we are all paying for the vaccine but no choice??
> ...


how much of a dumbass are you?

how many vaccines will people get in the next 5yrs? I'll get as many as I need, that's how many. I actually had to get a MMR booster shot in early 2020. I was starting to work in a school and given the anti-vax dumbshits who are causing a resurgence in measles, I got my titers taken. Turns out, I had no immunity to measles at all. Did some reading, and learned that there was a short period of time where only 1 MMR shot was given (which coincides with when I got mine in the early 1980's). A small-ish portion of people did not develop immunity to measles after just a single MMR booster. Turns out, I'm one of those people. so I got a booster last winter. I get the flu shot mostly every year. sounds like research is beginning regarding combining the seasonal influenza vaccine with a coronavirus vaccine.

sometimes there's a choice of which one you get. when I scheduled mine, I got to see what vaccine was being given at some sites, but not others. some places aren't doing it that way because they don't get the same numbers of each vaccine every time. they get what they get. which means the people scheduled for the vaccine get what's available. there's still a supply shortage relative to the number of people who want it. beggars can't be choosers.

wtf are you talking about with the delays? what contract is being breached? there is research showing that you CAN delay the 2nd vaccine. and some places have decided to do just that so they can prioritize getting people their 1st vaccine. yes, it means that people have a lower level of immunity for longer. but it also means that more people can have SOME level of immunity sooner. these are difficult public health decisions that need to be made in light of vaccine supply and distribution limitations.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Harold said:


> I actually had to get a MMR booster shot in early 2020.


Funny you mention that. A couple of years ago, my doctor mentioned that some of her doctor friends had come down with whooping cough!
At that point, I got caught up with all of my immunizations.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> Funny you mention that. A couple of years ago, my doctor mentioned that some of her doctor friends had come down with whooping cough!
> At that point, I got caught up with all of my immunizations.


interestingly, some time last summer I saw an article describing that some researchers were hypothesizing about whether one reason children seemed less susceptible to covid was because they had some level of protection because of recent childhood immunizations.









Childhood Immunization and COVID-19: An Early Narrative Review


The COVID-19 pandemic has evolved into arguably the largest global public health crisis in recent history—especially in the absence of a safe and effective vaccine or an effective anti-viral treatment. As reported, the virus seems to less commonly ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












Does Early Childhood Vaccination Protect Against COVID-19?


The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is an on-going pandemic caused by the SARS-coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) which targets the respiratory system of humans. The published data show that children, unlike adults, are less susceptible to contracting the ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












MMR Vaccine May Be Reason Children Are Less Affected by COVID-19


The measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine may hold the key to the mystery surrounding children and the COVID-19 pandemic.



www.pharmacytimes.com


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Harold said:


> interestingly, some time last summer I saw an article describing that some researchers were hypothesizing about whether one reason children seemed less susceptible to covid was because they had some level of protection because of recent childhood immunizations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think there was also a MedCram video on the subject. Here's another study to add to yours:

Polio, HIB, MMR, Varicella, PCV13, Geriatric Flu, and HepA-HepB vaccines consistently show associations with lower rates of SARS-CoV-2 infection across 1, 2, and 5-year time horizons








Exploratory analysis of immunization records highlights decreased SARS-CoV-2 rates in individuals with recent non-COVID-19 vaccinations - Scientific Reports


Clinical studies are ongoing to assess whether existing vaccines may afford protection against SARS-CoV-2 infection through trained immunity. In this exploratory study, we analyze immunization records from 137,037 individuals who received SARS-CoV-2 PCR tests. We find that polio, Haemophilus...




www.nature.com


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

nOOky said:


> I hope Biden is right about May. I'm someone (along with my wife) that has been to work every single day since this started. She deals with the public. And we are not close to receiving the vaccine yet because we are healthy and in our early 50's. We have friends that have been working from home for months that have long since been vaccinated since they are in a different category, yet not exposed to anyone. It's just frustrating, maybe because they brag about it on Facebook as they have been "working" from home for months, meanwhile we have been considered essential enough to trudge to work, but not essential enough to vaccinate.


I hope he is absolutely dead wrong. The data in the Israeli study suggest that if everyone is vaccinated by May 1, by May 25, the protections from the vaccine would be so complete that virtually nobody would be able to get infected. Why would we wait until July 4 to see our friends and family members when a robust immunity exists over a month before that?

Statements like the President made yesterday are stupid and irresponsible. We know the vaccine works. Once we are vaccinated, it is time to let our guard down and enjoy our lives again. It's like they say they're following the science until it doesn't fit the lockdown narrative and then we're not following the science.

The science said to lock down and wear masks, and I did it.

The science now says that the vaccines work and offer nearly complete protection. Hell, the vaccine's efficacy is higher than the vaccine for measles for God's sake.

It's time to start pushing back against the restrictions. Once vaccination is universally available, there are no more innocent victims (once immunity kicks in).


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

Oklahoma just dropped all state restrictions today.

I got my first dose yesterday. Only became eligible this week. My wife has been done for weeks. There were actually thousands of appointments available statewide, with your choice of vendor(except J&J). Took no time at all and I was even able to combine the trip(took an hour to get to the rural site) with a MTB scouting trip. Didn't have the bike but there is a small trail system close by built by Rogue Trails out of the NWA area.

Other than masks we have been really pretty much wide open for a long time. Some municipalities and counties have restrictions but hasn't really affected my life much at all. Of course all I do is ride and drink beer.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

twodownzero said:


> I hope he is absolutely dead wrong. The data in the Israeli study suggest that if everyone is vaccinated by May 1, by May 25, the protections from the vaccine would be so complete that virtually nobody would be able to get infected. Why would we wait until July 4 to see our friends and family members when a robust immunity exists over a month before that?


Biden made it abundantly clear in his speech that everyone would not be vaccinated by May 1st. He said by May 1st every state must make all residents over 18 years old _eligible_. He also said they expect to have enough doses to cover all adults by the _end of May_. He also stated it will take some time after that to physically distribute the doses and get them into peoples arms. But most folks these days need to work on their basic listening and comprehension skills.

Beyond that, it will take some more time to get everyone a second shot if needed. Then, scientists and researchers have been saying for quite some time now that they expect it to take at least two weeks _after the second shot _for the vaccine to be fully effective. IF everybody (or at least 70-90% they're estimating) gets the vaccines, THEN the virus will have no hosts to spread to, but it will take some time for the currently active virus to dissapate.

If you do the math on all of that, I think July 4th is actually a very optimistic date. It could very easily take longer than that. Especially if you add extra time for convincing the 5G chip, Qanon, freedom cause 'Merica folks to get the vaccine. Which, by the way Biden also said that July 4th is doable, but not guaranteed if people don't cooperate.

Based on what's happened in the past year, my prediction (and Lord I hope I'm wrong), is that state governors will continue to ignore the many many warnings and open up too early. Anti-masker, anti-vaxxer, 'invincible' college kids, and generally selfish Karens will continue to spread Covid-19, possibly with its worse variants that are more immune to the current vaccines, and there will be at very least another big surge of cases and deaths. At worst, we'll have to develop new/updated vaccines and this entire year is going to be a repeat of 2020.

Sorry, got a little rant-y there. I just want to go back to work.


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## Truckee29 (May 9, 2011)

walkerwalker said:


> .. Anti-masker, anti-vaxxer, 'invincible' college kids, and generally selfish Karens will continue to spread Covid-19, possibly with its worse variants that are more immune to the current vaccines, and there will be at very least another big surge of cases and deaths. At worst, we'll have to develop new/updated vaccines and this entire year is going to be a repeat of 2020.
> 
> Sorry, got a little rant-y there. I just want to go back to work.


Why is this administration failing to vaccinate illegal border crossers before releasing them into our communities? Why isn't BPS getting them? Seems counter-intuitive to me. This should worry folks as much as the types you list in your post, if not more. Look at where these people are being placed and watch what happens. Tell me it's not strategic

When I was getting my first dose the line wrapped around the County Health facility where they were administering the shots. I was the oldest person in that line of over 100 people. The tech who stuck me said they were just looking for arms to stick


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Truckee29 said:


> Why is this administration failing to vaccinate illegal border crossers before releasing them into our communities? Why isn't BPS getting them? Seems counter-intuitive to me. This should worry folks as much as the types you list in your post, if not more. Look at where these people are being placed and watch what happens. Tell me it's not strategic
> 
> When I was getting my first dose the line wrapped around the County Health facility where they were administering the shots. I was the oldest person in that line of over 100 people. The tech who stuck me said they were just looking for arms to stick


Ya gotta' stop worrying about who's infected cuz at this point we're all potentially infected.

It's like the flu, you don't worry about who has the flu, you either get the flu vaccine and hope it protects you enough to keep from getting really sick, or you skip the vaccine and take your chances..

It's time to stop worrying about who got the vaccine and who didn't, the time for testing has also passed, for now you practice being safe until you're vaccinated, then you try to be safe until all those who want to be vaccinated can be vaccinated, then we go back to business as usual.

The folks who don't want to get vaccinated are not "our" problem once all the folks who want to be vaccinated are vaccinated.

Just remember, you can't make another person think and act the way you think and act.

It's best to just let it go and move on.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Truckee29 said:


> Why is this administration failing to vaccinate illegal border crossers before releasing them into our communities? Why isn't BPS getting them? Seems counter-intuitive to me. This should worry folks as much as the types you list in your post, if not more. Look at where these people are being placed and watch what happens. Tell me it's not strategic
> 
> When I was getting my first dose the line wrapped around the County Health facility where they were administering the shots. I was the oldest person in that line of over 100 people. The tech who stuck me said they were just looking for arms to stick


I'll take, "Things that didn't happen for $300, please."

But, great demonization of minorities by associating diseases with them, without factual basis. Truly. A+ work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

walkerwalker said:


> Biden made it abundantly clear in his speech that everyone would not be vaccinated by May 1st. He said by May 1st every state must make all residents over 18 years old _eligible_. He also said they expect to have enough doses to cover all adults by the _end of May_. He also stated it will take some time after that to physically distribute the doses and get them into peoples arms. But most folks these days need to work on their basic listening and comprehension skills.
> 
> Beyond that, it will take some more time to get everyone a second shot if needed. Then, scientists and researchers have been saying for quite some time now that they expect it to take at least two weeks _after the second shot _for the vaccine to be fully effective. IF everybody (or at least 70-90% they're estimating) gets the vaccines, THEN the virus will have no hosts to spread to, but it will take some time for the currently active virus to dissapate.
> 
> ...


If everyone is eligible, everyone should be getting vaccinated. I got vaccinated literally at the first opportunity I was "eligible." If everyone is "eligible" on May 1, then everyone should have a shot in the arm by then.

It absolutely does not take two weeks after the second shot for the vaccine to be "fully effective." A week after the second shot, the immunity response in a generally sick population, median age 45, was about as strong as it's ever going to be. Even after day 7, the immunity is strong, and after day 12, very strong. Again, the public health officials are lying to us and trying to act like we ought to be more cautious than the data warrant. There are nearly 600,000 people in the Israeli vaccine study. We need to STOP pretending as if we can't rely on the vaccines. The vaccines have saved many thousands of lives already. They work!

If you do the math based on the actual empirical data and not nonsense emotion, we should all be able to go to a crowded rock concert by July 4.

I can say this: by the time I reach day 28, other than wearing a mask to make others feel safe, I'm not engaging in any more precautions. To incur any individual costs to "protect" myself from a virus that I have profound immunity to based on a vaccine is utterly stupid.

I haven't seen my family since this crap began. I'm absolutely done with this nonsense! Get vaccinated and live your life. The precautions were a band-aid. The vaccine is the _solution_.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> But, great demonization of minorities by associating diseases with them, without factual basis. Truly. A+ work.


People waiting to enter legally are tested prior to crossing the border. Those who test positive have to remain in Mexico.
Those who enter illegally aren't tested by the border patrol. In Brownsville Texas once they are dropped off , they are then tested. Since Jan 25th, 108 have tested positive and been released.
There is a pandemic going on. I can't go to Alaska without being tested, and/or quarantined. The problem is that there is no organized method for receiving, processing, and quarantining the flood of people who enter the country illegally, from other countries that have poor methods of identifying those who are infected.
This isn't about being outraged at "minorities", this is about being outraged at a process guaranteed to promote more people becoming infected.

Even the best virtue signalling is no substitute for actually understanding the problem.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

I don't know the actual numbers of who's currently eligible vs total adult population and what will happen between now and May, so I'm not going to make up statistics. but you are saying that on May 1st, when 10's if not 100's of millions of Americans become eligible, you expect the distribution channels, facilities, and staff to be capable of vaccinating them all in one day? 

I didn't say anything that included 'non-sense emotions'. I too was using empirical data just as you are. However, since the data is not complete, and much of it we are still unsure of, everybody interprets it differently. Most authorities are choosing to err on the side of caution. Could you imagine if they promised something like "with 100% certainty the virus will be gone on "x" date", then it didn't happen? How much people would rant and protest. 

BTW, I would love it if everyone could go to a crowded rock concert by July 4. I'm a live audio engineer, that is my primary source of income. But it's just not going to happen if people jump the gun.


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## Truckee29 (May 9, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> I'll take, "Things that didn't happen for $300, please."
> 
> But, great demonization of minorities by associating diseases with them, without factual basis. Truly. A+ work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm am a minority. So next you'll call me racist right? It's what you seem to you do when you can't accept the real facts. Nothing I said associates minorities with Covid-19 But you just be you. The MTBR Liberal defender and strawman.









After Border Patrol release, asylum-seekers test positive for Covid in Brownsville, Texas


A number of migrants seeking asylum and released by Border Patrol have tested positive to Covid-19 tests in Brownsville, Texas. Some plan to continue their journey to other cities and states.




www.nbcnews.com


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

The information coming from Israel is fantastic to have, and it's mostly good news. However, you also have to factor in that they have a vastly superior health care system compared to anything in the United States. They were much better prepared to disseminate information, educate their population, and execute their plan.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MSU Alum said:


> People waiting to enter legally are tested prior to crossing the border. Those who test positive have to remain in Mexico.
> Those who enter illegally aren't tested by the border patrol. In Brownsville Texas once they are dropped off , they are then tested. Since Jan 25th, 108 have tested positive and been released.
> There is a pandemic going on. I can't go to Alaska without being tested, and/or quarantined. The problem is that there is no organized method for receiving, processing, and quarantining the flood of people who enter the country illegally, from other countries that have poor methods of identifying those who are infected.
> This isn't about being outraged at "minorities", this is about being outraged at a process guaranteed to promote more people becoming infected.
> ...


What he said wasn't correct.

I don't know how else to spell it out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Truckee29 said:


> I'm am a minority. So next you'll call me racist right? It's what you seem to you do when you can't accept the real facts. Nothing I said associates minorities with Covid-19 But you just be you. The MTBR Liberal defender and strawman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Re-read the headline of that story. Then re-read what you wrote in the post I quoted.

If the headline and story is true, what you wrote is wrong.

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## Truckee29 (May 9, 2011)

Facts maybe?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Truckee29 said:


> Facts maybe?


Ok. Let me spell this out for you.

You linked to a story about asylum seekers.

Your first post, which I quoted, was about illegal immigrants.

The two are not the same; asylum seekers are here legally. As in, the law affords them that right until their case is adjudicated. Why would you describe them as illegal immigrants?

So, again: what you wrote was wrong. Own it.

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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

From the Utah state COVID site:








_*All three vaccines begin to protect you soon after being administered, including with the first dose.

All percentages below are calculated based on a relatively small number of events and should be viewed as estimates. The data presented for Johnson & Johnson was based on overall effectiveness; in the United States it was shown to be 72% effective against all infections. 
_


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## Truckee29 (May 9, 2011)

Deleted


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

walkerwalker said:


> The information coming from Israel is fantastic to have, and it's mostly good news. However, you also have to factor in that they have a vastly superior health care system compared to anything in the United States. They were much better prepared to disseminate information, educate their population, and execute their plan.


Huh? What does that have to do with the efficacy of the vaccine? Are human beings somehow different if observed in Israel versus the United States? This is a bizarre sort of response. I argue that the vaccine is highly effective, and your response is that their health care system is somehow better than ours?

If we were all vaccinated, we wouldn't need health care for COVID-19. Because the infections would be so few (and those infected so mild), that a total moron could probably care for the people with COVID.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

No, I did not say anything about efficacy. We were discussing the feasibility and timeline of distributing the vaccine to every American. Everyone will be eligible on May 1st, and you stated that should somehow mean that everyone would be vaccinated on or before that date. Then you mentioned Israel. And I was pointing out that their health care system is much better set up administratively, and can more effectively distribute vaccines to people. My point is, just making people eligible is only one step of the process. There are many other logistics to consider before everyone (or enough) people can get it.

The vaccine could be 100% effective, but if only 20% of the people have got the shot, then it's not yet providing any real protection for the community at large.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Turns out people where I work were informed via email they could get the first shot. You call the county, tell them where you work, since our work is deemed critical and they have enough shots, we can get a shot. Well... some of us. I live in Wisconsin, but work in Minnesota. So to get the shot you have to be a resident of the county in Minnesota lol. My wife calls our county and hounds them daily, and we are still slated for the end of April. I can hang on, especially since most of my co-irkers will be vaccinated.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

nOOky said:


> co-irkers


👍


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Ok. Let me spell this out for you.
> 
> You linked to a story about asylum seekers.
> 
> ...


I'm somewhere around 100% sure that when he said 'illegal immigrants' it was referring to how they initially crossed the border.
Also about 100% sure that you already knew that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm somewhere around 100% sure that when he said 'illegal immigrants' it was referring to how they initially crossed the border.
> Also about 100% sure that you already knew that.


Just so we're clear: you're claiming that every single one of those asylum seekers entered illegally?

Do you have any proof to back up that statement? Or, just making **** up?

No reputable news source has made any comment at all about the nature of their entry. One condition for applying for asylum is that you have to enter through a designated port of entry. Which Brownsville, TX (location in story) is, actually. So, it appears that they meet the conditions for legal entry, pending any other revelations.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Just so we're clear: you're claiming that every single one of those asylum seekers entered illegally?
> 
> Do you have any proof to back up that statement? Or, just making **** up?
> 
> No reputable news source has made any comment at all about the nature of their entry.


As mentioned, if you go through a legal point of entry, you are tested there and not allowed in of you are positive.
Currently, after entering illegally, you can get into the 'catch and release' program, which is the situation for the people in the article.

"These folks are asylum seekers, so criminalizing them based on their manner of entry, which is not related to their legal ability to seek asylum, is misleading," Meza said.









Fact-check: Is the Biden administration releasing 'hundreds' of infected migrants into Texas?


Texas Gov. Greg Abbott turned his attention to the border last week to highlight coronavirus cases among migrants crossing into Texas.



www.statesman.com


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Greg Abbott: “The Biden Administration is recklessly releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants who have COVID into Texas communities.” 

PolitiFact's ruling: Mostly False

Here's why: One day after Gov. Greg Abbott announced he would lift the statewide mask mandate and allow all businesses to open to 100% capacity, the governor turned his attention to the coronavirus spreading along the Texas-Mexico border. 

Later in the same article: 

‘Illegal immigrants’ vs asylum seekers 

Abbott’s statement mischaracterizes the status of migrants who are being released into U.S. communities by U.S. Customs and Border Protection. 

Further down, in the article you cited: 

“Illegal immigrants” are migrants who have entered the country without legal permission. All of the migrants being released by U.S. Customs and Border Protection, on the other hand, have applied for asylum and have a legal claim to remain in the U.S. while they await their asylum proceedings.

So, you just shot down your own theory. The article you posted states that they are all legal. Good job!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Greg Abbott: "The Biden Administration is recklessly releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants who have COVID into Texas communities."
> 
> PolitiFact's ruling: Mostly False
> 
> ...


You are going out of your way to try to make it appear that you miss the point entirely, which is that the original act of crossing in those cases was illegal. 
But you know that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> You are going out of your way to try to make it appear that you miss the point entirely, which is that the original act of crossing in those cases was illegal.
> But you know that.


Huh? My point is that crossing a border to seek asylum IS legal when done at a port of entry. These is nothing in the article you shared that indicates that these people acted in an illegal manner.

If anything, the article indicates the opposite.

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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

I've had both of my shots recently.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Huh? My point is that crossing a border to seek asylum IS legal when done at a port of entry. These is nothing in the article you shared that indicates that these people acted in an illegal manner.


"Romero said that t*here are two categories of migrants who are being released to the city's bus terminal*: *asylum seekers entering after the repeal of the Trump administration's Remain in Mexico policy, and those who have been apprehended at the border *and allowed to remain in the country pending immigration court hearings"


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> "Romero said that t*here are two categories of migrants who are being released to the city's bus terminal*: *asylum seekers entering after the repeal of the Trump administration's Remain in Mexico policy, and those who have been apprehended at the border *and allowed to remain in the country pending immigration court hearings"


And yet, in THIS INSTANCE:

Abbott's statement mischaracterizes the status of migrants who are being released into U.S. communities by U.S. Customs and Border Protection. 
"Illegal immigrants" are migrants who have entered the country without legal permission. *All of the migrants being released by U.S. Customs and Border Protection, on the other hand, have applied for asylum and have a legal claim to remain in the U.S. while they await their asylum proceedings.*


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Silly me, how did I inadvertently wander into the illegal immigration thread? Anyway, vaccination opens up to a much wider group of folks in California on Monday - basically everyone with a disability or serious health condition. There's a specific list of conditions that qualify, but no proof is going to be required, so it's widely expected to be a free-for-all. Meanwhile, healthy 60-somethings like me are still SOL. 

There's still plenty of doses to be had. I check for appointments every few days and anyone with enough internet knowledge to post to this forum could easily find one. But eligibility is another matter. Maybe in another few weeks...


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

My wife who is 4 months pregnant just got her second moderna shot at the recommendation of her OB. Body aches for about 12 hours, no fever.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Getting my first shot (Moderna) tomorrow. I'm 57 and teach college, so I became elegible last week. Everywhere I check online, no appointments show available. A friend of mine who teaches said she just called a medical clinic near her and they said she could come in after hours the next day. So I did the same thing, and called a clinic on Friday. They had a regular open appointment for this Monday morning. In fact, they had a number of open times for Monday? If you are elegible, just call a clinic directly.
BTW, My wife is a critical care / oncology nurse and had both her shots a month ago. The second shot made her feel sick like the 24hr flu. She had the chills and felt nauseous. She was fine a day later.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

Got the 1st moderna shot last friday. Rode 28 miles right after and 54 the next day. No problems at all. 2nd shot scheduled for April 9th, hopefully it goes as well.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

walkerwalker said:


> No, I did not say anything about efficacy. We were discussing the feasibility and timeline of distributing the vaccine to every American. Everyone will be eligible on May 1st, and you stated that should somehow mean that everyone would be vaccinated on or before that date. Then you mentioned Israel. And I was pointing out that their health care system is much better set up administratively, and can more effectively distribute vaccines to people. My point is, just making people eligible is only one step of the process. There are many other logistics to consider before everyone (or enough) people can get it.
> 
> The vaccine could be 100% effective, but if only 20% of the people have got the shot, then it's not yet providing any real protection for the community at large.


I did not say "on or before." You made that up. Everyone who is willing to become vaccinated should be doing it at the first available opportunity. My first appointment was canceled because weather delayed the shipment of the vaccine. I did get a call the day before my second appointment that I could get it at 7 pm the day before, but I declined and got it the next morning. If the vaccine doses are available, there's no excuse for not being vaccinated. It's not as if the bottleneck is the ability of health care providers to give IM shots. The bottleneck is the availability of vaccine doses. If we had 300 million doses available right now, they could be in arms by the end of the week. It would not take a month or more to vaccinate our population if

I did not "mention Israel." I mentioned a scientific study that has a sample of nearly 1.2 Million human beings that happens to have been conducted on the Israeli population. How effective the vaccine is against a control group has nothing to do with the efficiency of their health care system.

It is a misnomer to believe we don't have the logistical ability to give people the vaccines. Every Wal-Mart in America can give the vaccines. There is no line of people waiting for a person with a syringe to push it into their muscle. The problem is that we don't have the doses, not that we don't have enough minimally trained people to give an IM injection. If it was, people could be trained to give these injections in a matter of hours or we could use Army medics or something. It seems to me that you've constructed this world where syringe holders is the bottleneck and there is simply no evidence that is the case. The hospital by me gives shots for 3 hours a day in the morning and evening. The other 18 hours a day, there are no shots to give.

The vaccine is about as close to 100% effective as it gets, as long as sufficient time has passed after the shots to build immunity. What we need are shots in arms ASAP. Fortunately, as people accept the shots, our population is understanding how important it is to get the shots so we can go on with our lives. Like I said, the masks and all the social distancing are band-aids. The vaccines are a _permanent solution_.


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## Scott In MD (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm a healthy 55 y/o cyclist riding about 1000 miles per year mostly on the trail. Had the virus with mild symptoms In September. One week bad cold w headache but no fever and two weeks fatigue. Quarantined in a very disciplined manner and thankfully did not get anyone else sick. DW and our little boy did not get sick, nor did any coworkers. Took this pic while recovering ... notice no one else around for miles but this was after ten days.

Had Pfizer #1 in February w noticeable side effects in a program for essential manufacturing workers. Arm pain, headache, congestion for about 36 hours.

No reaction to Pfizer #2. Grateful and now starting to live a more normal life. Had pizza and beer in a bar recently ... with a lot of old people there too... and really looking forward to a renewed economy and social environment, but there's a lot to learn from this, and take forward.

Is what I think.


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## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

My wife, who is also a part-time vaccinator for the Covid Vaccines, got her 2nd Moderna the other day. She was sick for at least 36 hours. Headache, nausea, chills, aches etc. You name it. She said it's about the sickest she's ever been in her life. I got my 1st Moderna last week and did feel the symptoms a bit, but not enough to prevent me from riding my bike. I'm really looking forward to the 2nd one


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

ridetheridge said:


> My wife, who is also a part-time vaccinator for the Covid Vaccines, got her 2nd Moderna the other day. She was sick for at least 36 hours. Headache, nausea, chills, aches etc. You name it. She said it's about the sickest she's ever been in her life. I got my 1st Moderna last week and did feel the symptoms a bit, but not enough to prevent me from riding my bike. I'm really looking forward to the 2nd one


I had COVID back over Thanksgiving, and just had my 1st Moderna vaccination last week. Shoulder was sore initially, then at 12 hours post-shot, I woke up in the middle of the night with chills, whole body aches and a headache. Got back to sleep, and felt decent when I woke up, but that quickly changed, and I spent the day feeling flu-ish, with aches, chills and a headache. Pretty shitty, but then it cleared up about 30 hours or so post-shot. Can't wait for #2! 

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## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

waltaz said:


> I had COVID back over Thanksgiving, and just had my 1st Moderna vaccination last week. Shoulder was sore initially, then at 12 hours post-shot, I woke up in the middle of the night with chills, whole body aches and a headache. Got back to sleep, and felt decent when I woke up, but that quickly changed, and I spent the day feeling flu-ish, with aches, chills and a headache. Pretty shitty, but then it cleared up about 30 hours or so post-shot. Can't wait for #2!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


According to this article, people that have had COVID get sicker on the first shot and less on the 2nd. So you are probably in good shape.



https://www.yahoo.com/news/had-choice-covid-19-vaccine-110026775.html


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

ridetheridge said:


> My wife, who is also a part-time vaccinator for the Covid Vaccines, got her 2nd Moderna the other day. She was sick for at least 36 hours. Headache, nausea, chills, aches etc. You name it. She said it's about the sickest she's ever been in her life. I got my 1st Moderna last week and did feel the symptoms a bit, but not enough to prevent me from riding my bike. I'm really looking forward to the 2nd one


Did she have problems with the 1st shot?


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## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

joeduda said:


> Did she have problems with the 1st shot?


She did have slight symptoms from the 1st one, mainly sore arm and just feeling a bit under the weather. Nothing like the 2nd.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

ridetheridge said:


> According to this article, people that have had COVID get sicker on the first shot and less on the 2nd. So you are probably in good shape.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/had-choice-covid-19-vaccine-110026775.html


Good to know! 

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> So a woman with Liver disease dies of liver disease. That sucks for her and her family, sorry to hear it.


I am not making a diagnosis here. But I just read this article about a major increase in liver disease among young women. This could possibly be what happened to this lady;

Sharp, 'Off The Charts' Rise In Alcoholic Liver Disease Among Young Women Sharp, 'Off The Charts' Rise In Alcoholic Liver Disease Among Young Women

The aftereffects of this pandemic will continue to be uncovered for years to come.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

waltaz said:


> I had COVID back over Thanksgiving,


How do you know? I thought it wasn't here at that point. Did you get an antibody test or something?
I had something that absolutely kicked my ass around that time as well.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> How do you know? I thought it wasn't here at that point. Did you get an antibody test or something?
> I had something that absolutely kicked my ass around that time as well.


Tested positive; sure was here in Nov, 2020...

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

waltaz said:


> Tested positive; sure was here in Nov, 2020...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting. So, from what I understand, they weren't testing for it at that time, as no one had even heard of it, so did you find out after the fact? What sort of test?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Interesting. So, from what I understand, they weren't testing for it at that time, as no one had even heard of it, so did you find out after the fact? What sort of test?


You must be confused with thanksgiving 2019. It was here 2020, and we were testing for it. Although as Klerejr said, we will be learning about this for years, and wouldn't be surprised if it was here thanksgiving 2019


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Slap head needs his coffee.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Slap head needs his coffee.


Apparently! 
Whole frigging year went by without me noticing. LOL!!!


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Apparently!
> Whole frigging year went by without me noticing. LOL!!!


Heh, well, if you can't loose track of the year in the over 50 forum, where can you?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SteveF said:


> Heh, well, if you can't loose track of the year in the over 50 forum, where can you?


Right?

I wonder if anything else interesting happened. 🤡


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I'm not looking forward to my 2nd covid shot. got scheduled to guide a bike tour at work 2 days after my 2nd moderna vax. I had mild symptoms after the first, and if it hits me like a ton of bricks after the 2nd, then that bike tour is gonna suck hard.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Harold said:


> I'm not looking forward to my 2nd covid shot. got scheduled to guide a bike tour at work 2 days after my 2nd moderna vax. I had mild symptoms after the first, and if it hits me like a ton of bricks after the 2nd, then that bike tour is gonna suck hard.


Hopefully you will be OK. I had it rough for 24 hours but I was riding after that and felt fine. Hydrate the day of the shot and do your best to get a good night's sleep. Good luck!


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## Dream Plus (Feb 12, 2004)

drich said:


> Hopefully you will be OK. I had it rough for 24 hours but I was riding after that and felt fine. Hydrate the day of the shot and do your best to get a good night's sleep. Good luck!


Got the 2nd Moderna shot yesterday. I'm feeling OK. Not perfect. I'm going to ride today though.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Harold said:


> I'm not looking forward to my 2nd covid shot. got scheduled to guide a bike tour at work 2 days after my 2nd moderna vax. I had mild symptoms after the first, and if it hits me like a ton of bricks after the 2nd, then that bike tour is gonna suck hard.


Like others, the day after for me was exhaustion, and felt fine 2 days out.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Harold said:


> I'm not looking forward to my 2nd covid shot. got scheduled to guide a bike tour at work 2 days after my 2nd moderna vax. I had mild symptoms after the first, and if it hits me like a ton of bricks after the 2nd, then that bike tour is gonna suck hard.


Probably not as bad as COVID though........which is kinda the point.


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

Got my first vaccine last week,looking forward to getting the second and having a little less stress at work (factory job).

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

twodownzero said:


> Probably not as bad as COVID though........which is kinda the point.


_my point_ is that I was scheduled to guide 2 days after my 2nd shot. it's possible that my response will be low enough that it won't be trouble. but I'm also hearing that the 2nd day post shot is the worst for some. given what I understand about it, I WANT a harsher response to the vaccine, anyway (really means it's working).


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## Rick w (Dec 23, 2020)

I've had the Pfizer (both) and had no side effects, other than a little soreness in the shoulder. Not bad at all no worse then if I got gosed in the shoulder.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

my mother got the moderna vaccination today.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

twodownzero said:


> If everyone is eligible, everyone should be getting vaccinated. I got vaccinated literally at the first opportunity I was "eligible." If everyone is "eligible" on May 1, then everyone should have a shot in the arm by then.
> 
> It absolutely does not take two weeks after the second shot for the vaccine to be "fully effective." A week after the second shot, the immunity response in a generally sick population, median age 45, was about as strong as it's ever going to be. Even after day 7, the immunity is strong, and after day 12, very strong. Again, the public health officials are lying to us and trying to act like we ought to be more cautious than the data warrant. There are nearly 600,000 people in the Israeli vaccine study. We need to STOP pretending as if we can't rely on the vaccines. The vaccines have saved many thousands of lives already. They work!
> 
> ...


just something to think about- my wife works in a busy ER in a major metro area. She's seen 3 people so far that ended up being positive for covid, all three were fully vaccinated post 2 weeks of both shots.


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

Once vaccinated we can get out and do more,so we can still get it just milder effects on your body due to the antibodies being built up.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Harold said:


> _my point_ I WANT a harsher response to the vaccine, anyway (really means it's working).


I think few understand this.
I've read the mRNA coating can be stripped away before reaching the cell.

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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I saw the data regarding Israeli experiences referenced, so I thought I'd chime in.

I think the "takeaway" is, don't expect the vaccine to protect you much before about day 21!
This makes sense. It takes a while for the lipid surrounded mRNA (the vaccine) to be absorbed into cells, and then for the cells to produce the protein, get the protein back into the blood and activate the "adaptive" immune system. It's why, when you get a cold, your body isn't instantly immune.

Anyway, from the study:

*"After initial injection case numbers increased to day 8 before declining to low levels by day 21."*
So in the first week, don't "party like it's 2018"!

*"Estimated vaccine effectiveness was pretty much 0 at day 14 but then rose to about 90% at day 21 before levelling off. The cause of the initial surge in infection risk is unknown but may be related to people being less cautious about maintaining protective behaviours as soon as they have the injection."*
I also wonder if it's a case of the innate immune system being "distracted" by the proteins initially produced thereby being less capable of fighting off a virus.
Or, they could have been exposed a day or two before the first injection.

*What our analysis shows is that a single dose of vaccine is highly protective, although it can take up to 21 days to achieve this."*

Here's the study.
*





Estimating the effectiveness of the Pfizer COVID-19 BNT162b2 vaccine after a single dose. A reanalysis of a study of ‘real-world’ vaccination outcomes from Israel


A distinctive feature of the roll out of vaccination against SARS-CoV-2 virus in the UK was the decision to delay the timing of the second injection till 12 weeks after the first. The logic behind this is to protect more people sooner and so reduce the total number of severe infections...




www.medrxiv.org




*
Regarding the idea that the harsher the reaction to the vaccine, the better the protection, I don't see the data supporting that. Many who get the placebo reported moderate reactions (and of course, they get no benefit), and the entire group, regardless of reaction, seems to become immune.

It does kind of make me wonder, though. If the group with the harsher reaction to the vaccine had gotten the virus instead, would they have been more likely to experience the cytokine storm associated with the disease? Who knows? Early responses to the vaccine are probably more dependent on the Innate system, rather than the adaptive system.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

I've whined several time in this thread about being ineligible for the vaccine (since, though "wayold" I'm not yet 65 - the age cutoff in California). I couldn't make myself lie about having a serious disease/condition like some folks are doing to get their shot, but there was another alternative - vaccine hunting. 

Since COVID vaccines only keep for a short time any that are unfrozen have to be used that day or thrown out. This has given rise to a whole subculture of vax hunters searching for these leftover doses. So I plugged into the vax hunter web sites and eventually got on the waiting list for several local pharmacies. In surprisingly short order - a few days after getting on the list - a local drugstore had a few extra shots, called me at 5:10 PM and I was getting my first Moderna shot by 5:30. No cheating or line-cutting involved, just using a shot that would otherwise end up in the trash.

Sure I could have waited another month or two for access to open for everybody, but as a male over 60 in a high risk area I was tired of feeling like a had a target on my back every time I left the house. It was nice to have another option.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

wayold said:


> I've whined several time in this thread about being ineligible for the vaccine (since, though "wayold" I'm not yet 65 - the age cutoff in California). I couldn't make myself lie about having a serious disease/condition like some folks are doing to get their shot, but there was another alternative - vaccine hunting.
> 
> Since COVID vaccines only keep for a short time any that are unfrozen have to be used that day or thrown out. This has given rise to a whole subculture of vax hunters searching for these leftover doses. So I plugged into the vax hunter web sites and eventually got on the waiting list for several local pharmacies. In surprisingly short order - a few days after getting on the list - a local drugstore had a few extra shots, called me at 5:10 PM and I was getting my first Moderna shot by 5:30. No cheating or line-cutting involved, just using a shot that would otherwise end up in the trash.
> 
> Sure I could have waited another month or two for access to open for everybody, but as a male over 60 in a high risk area I was tired of feeling like a had a target on my back every time I left the house. It was nice to have another option.


My Aunt did that.

I work at a hospital that is one of the County Vaccination sites and we get a line of people waiting each day in the afternoon hoping to get anything not used for the appointments.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

wayold said:


> I've whined several time in this thread about being ineligible for the vaccine (since, though "wayold" I'm not yet 65 - the age cutoff in California). I couldn't make myself lie about having a serious disease/condition like some folks are doing to get their shot, but there was another alternative - vaccine hunting.
> 
> Since COVID vaccines only keep for a short time any that are unfrozen have to be used that day or thrown out. This has given rise to a whole subculture of vax hunters searching for these leftover doses. So I plugged into the vax hunter web sites and eventually got on the waiting list for several local pharmacies. In surprisingly short order - a few days after getting on the list - a local drugstore had a few extra shots, called me at 5:10 PM and I was getting my first Moderna shot by 5:30. No cheating or line-cutting involved, just using a shot that would otherwise end up in the trash.
> 
> Sure I could have waited another month or two for access to open for everybody, but as a male over 60 in a high risk area I was tired of feeling like a had a target on my back every time I left the house. It was nice to have another option.


Good strategy. Here in Utah, everyone above the age of 16 will now be eligible on March 24!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

just stopped off at a friend's house this afternoon to pick up some baked goods. she's starting to sell items and is working on building up a collection of recipes. and refining those recipes. I occasionally volunteer as a crash test dummy, of sorts, so this was what prompted today's visit.

we were doing a little catching up and she told me about a friend of hers who works for the USFS in a neighboring county (my friend works for the NPS) about how that county has been frustratingly stuck on group 1 vaccine distribution for FOREVER. Not because they can't get doses, but because they're having a hard time getting enough people to administer them. so the county has tapped the USFS employees there to help them administer vaccines.

the rest of the state is now in group 4 as of a couple of days ago.

my friend is in the priority group that JUST opened up a couple days ago, and is waitlisted in a couple of places. seems our county has finally caught up with the state's release schedule, which is promising.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

100 million and growing. We are getting there, and I for one am feeling the most optimistic I have in quite some time.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

My wife got her J+J Wednesday.
Was feeling crappy yesterday, but seems 100% today.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

So do you guys find you have a choice in which vaccine you get or or is it basically vaccine dujour?


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

upstateSC-rider said:


> So do you guys find you have a choice in which vaccine you get or or is it basically vaccine dujour?


I know some of the pharmacy web sites you can look for appointments on indicate which vaccines they offer. However, every time I look there are no appointments at any place nearby so I don't know if you can select to that level.

I did get an appointment for next Tuesday, through work, at the Navy base. The email I got said it's an appointment for my "first dose," but not which one. For all I know it could mean "first and only dose of J&J."


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

J n J for me tomorrow. No choice. Controversial manufacturing to some or not. We are pretty sure that most everything in the world is controversial or offensive anymore.✌

I’ll post my post vaccine report.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

upstateSC-rider said:


> So do you guys find you have a choice in which vaccine you get or or is it basically vaccine dujour?


depends where you get it. some places let you know what they have beforehand. some don't.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Looking at vaccinefinder.org or one of the similar sites you can find what type of vaccine different places offer. Assuming you're eligible to make an appointment you can choose your vaccine by choosing where you make your appointment. For ineligible folks just hunting for a leftover shot, you pretty much take whatever you can get. Fortunately all 3 vaccines work pretty well so I wouldn't really worry about which one you get.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Nashville to vaccinate 10,000 people in one day at Nissan Stadium


Nashville intends to vaccinate 10,000 people in one day using Johnson and Johnson vaccine at a drive-thru event at Nissan Stadium on March 20.



www.tennessean.com





Wife showed me this last night.


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

Drove 8 hours round trip from Santa Fe to Amarillo for the vaccine (Moderna). Went for a ride when I got home in the afternoon. Glad I got the first shot!✔✔✔


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Just got home from the mass vaccination at Nissan Stadium. See my Ekram post above. 
Got to say the whole process was excellent. 👌Feeling normal. Will report back.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Got my first Moderna shot Feb 19 with about 4 hours of mild fever 30 hours after the shot. Got my second one on March 19 and sure enough, about 30 hours later got a mild fever for about 2 hours that time.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Waiting until next Friday, 3/25, for shot #2 of the Moderna vaccine.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@Radium. Bueno amigo.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

EKram said:


> @Radium. Bueno amigo.


Viva los Estados Unidos! Jai yai yai!.....


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Had the first injection of Friday. Was no side effects to this point. The ordeal was a breeze going in and receiving the dose. They had us hang out for a short time following just in case. 
Being a special care cat, my doc was adamant that I should do the deed as soon as available. Fortunately, no issue at this point. 
Pfizer was the source of vaccine.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Getting my first Pfizer tomorrow morning. I became eligible a week ago, signed up pre-appointment just after midnight. Received an email about 40 hours later that I could reg for an appt, tried and none were available. Then a couple of days ago I got another email with additional locations, one in my county. Tried and unavailable but then I tried another site about 45 minutes - hour from me and got an appt.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Getting the shot at the Nashville mass vaccination event should lessen symptoms of Covid. 
The people that run covid statistical numbers are happy. Politicians already easing restrictions.

J&J vaccine, some chills 29 hours after woke me up. Snuggled in with wife and went back to sleep. Upper arm sore.
Going for a ride soon.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Getting the first Moderna shot tomorrow morning. Somewhat worried about the efficacy for the new strains, but I'm not waiting to git er done it's all that's available.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

As Jim Kirk would say “ships log entry” or something like that.
60 hours after the J&J shot, shot soreness in the arm gone. No complications ‘cept those short lived chills either from the vaccine or not. Counting days until vaccine is touted to be fully effective.
Here in TN, Krispy Creme is giving a donut a day for 1 year after vaccination.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Shot 2 of Pfizer/BioNTech tomorrow. The end is near!


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Shot #1 of #teamPfizer yesterday. Very noticeable pain in the muscle where the shot was given, a lot more than I remember from any flu shot in the past. Kind of a bummer for a side-sleeper.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

EKram said:


> Here in TN, Krispy Creme is giving a donut a day for 1 year after vaccination.


That's probably more dangerous than COVID!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

EKram said:


> Here in TN, Krispy Creme is giving a donut a day for 1 year after vaccination.


Not just TN. Looks like it's a decision for specific locations/franchises or something? One location in my town is doing it (happens to be the one closest to me). Scary.

Krispy Kreme - Promotions


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

"We return you to your regularly-scheduled co-morbidities."


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> That's probably more dangerous than COVID!


You are sorely mistaken.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

Here in TN, Krispy Creme is giving a donut a day for 1 year after vaccination.







If covid does not get you , then maybe diabetes will. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

natas1321 said:


> Here in TN, Krispy Creme is giving a donut a day for 1 year after vaccination.
> If covid does not get you , then maybe diabetes will.











Food Fried In Vegetable Oil May Contain Toxic Compound


When highly unsaturated vegetable oils are heated at frying temperature (365 F) for extended periods--or even for half an hour--a highly toxic compound, HNE (4-hydroxy-trans-2-nonenal) forms in the oil.



www.sciencedaily.com




"When highly unsaturated vegetable oils are heated at frying temperature (365 F) for extended periods--or even for half an hour--a highly toxic compound, HNE (4-hydroxy-trans-2-nonenal) forms in the oil"









4-Hydroxynonenal - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




"such as chronic inflammation, neurodegenerative diseases, adult respiratory distress syndrome, atherogenesis, diabetes and different types of cancer"
"inked in the pathology of several diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, cataract, atherosclerosis, diabetes and cancer."


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I like my dry humor has been taken well.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

Nothing wrong with krispy kreme they have some good doughnuts, had one about 10 years ago. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

natas1321 said:


> Nothing wrong with krispy kreme they have some good doughnuts, had one about 10 years ago.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


Agree, they are tasty little guys. But we will know how well the overweight public can regulate themselves lol.
Free donuts for all!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm hoping for the McDonald's daily free French Fries offer to kick in...


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Got my second shot today (Pfizer/BioNTech). No symptoms; hoping tomorrow isn't miserable. Either way, no regrets.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

dupe


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

................


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Holding out hope that some place in San Diego will offer free fish tacos for the vaccinated. One per week would be acceptable.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Tacos? I'd settle for available vaccines.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

the one ring said:


> Holding out hope that some place in San Diego will offer free fish tacos for the vaccinated. One per week would be acceptable.


In my best Homer Simpson voice....."Mmmmm, fish tacos"!


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

got my second shot today, arm is sore but otherwise all good. yea!!


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> oh trust me, I got twenty five years living in the south, saying it's "different" down there is like suggesting Vegas gets a little warm in the summer ?
> 
> first two questions I was asked when I started a new job in Knoxville: what church do you attend? what do you think of them Vols?


I'm from Alabama. The south is a good place to be from.

I probably would've answered those questions, "I'm a satanist, do you know where they meet locally?" and, "they suck."


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I absolutely adore Alabama.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Just a sore arm late in the day and the next from my first shot. I was going to bed and noticed my shoulder hurting and my first though was it was from breaking my collarbone and then I remembered I'd had the shot.


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

I got my second vaccination This past Friday. Saturday sore arm where I got the shot, very lethargic, low grade fever and dull headache for the day. Just trying to do some light work around the house was kicking my butt. Was still a little lethargic Sunday but the fever and headache were gone at least. I went riding. Other than the hill climbs were kicking my butt, it was a beautiful SoCal day to ride.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Got my second shot last Thurs. I think I may have had some localized pain the next day, but it's hard to say since I already had localized soreness from doing PT on both my shoulders later that Thurs. afternoon.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Just a sore arm late in the day and the next from my first shot. I was going to bed and noticed my shoulder hurting and my first though was it was from breaking my collarbone and then I remembered I'd had the shot.


My first night after shot #1, I had a substantial "bruising" pain in my deltoid, to where I couldn't sleep on it. The second night that subsided but the shoulder joint itself was hurting pretty bad, like after one of the many times I've dislocated it. That was also gone by the next evening.

I tried to avoid the vitamin-I, but that 2nd night I definitely needed it and caved.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

New York State is opening vaccine eligibility to all adults 30 and up tomorrow March 30th. And 16+ April 6th. There already doesn't seem to be any appointments available, with this mass influx of eligible people I expect it to be a while before anything is available. But at least you can get on the list.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

My wife got her second shot on Saturday morning. She did lots of research, looking for things to worry about, but so far she's only had a sore arm.


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## thegock (Jan 21, 2014)

the one ring said:


> I tried to avoid the vitamin-I, but that 2nd night I definitely needed it and caved.


Monday, when I got my second shot of Moderna, the person administering the injection told me that I should only take Tylenol.


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## MTB_Underdog (Jul 8, 2020)

Got my second Pfizer Saturday afternoon, absolutely kicked my butt all day Sunday. Fever, cold chills, headache, lethargic, general soreness. Slept most of the day on and off, then the headache woke me up around 4:00 AM Monday morning. Stayed up until the kids went to school then back to bed until noon (I work third shift). Finally felt normal Monday afternoon.

First shot was pretty much nothing, arm was a sore but not bad. The second, wow.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

chazpat said:


> My wife got her second shot on Saturday morning. She did lots of research, looking for things to worry about, but so far she's only had a sore arm.


Same here. She got hers Monday. Same saga, so much conflicting media information. 
We have people in our circle, of a like mind, discussed, and decided on our own. Concept!

Other than being married to me, she's got the sore arm and is fine.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

I was able to schedule for this Monday, and my wife snagged an appointment for Saturday, both pfizer. The NYS run site was like a carnival game trying to schedule. "appointments available", click through everything, enter info, only to be told appointment is already taken. Back button ineffective, must re-do captcha and put in info, repeat. I tried this game for 30 minutes before finding a better method.

There is a "finger lakes vaccine tracker" website that shows other locations besides the state run sites. Picked one close to me run by the hospital, and their website was much better to navigate. So, as many folks in this thread have mentioned, it's better to find a non-government vaccine site and contact them directly.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

On Monday, Arizona opened up new appointments at the state run facilities. It took a coordinated effort of six people to get five appointments. I'm not sure opening up to 16+ made sense in that regard. Of course,the website sucked, appointments were gone before you could click on confirm.. And it was generally harder than buying rage against the machine concert tickets for last year was. I will say, walk in was 25 minutes, start to finish. Much faster than drive through. Day one of Pfizer done, and not even a sore arm. So basicllay better than earlier in the year when I got both influenza and tetanus done.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

Georgia finally has their crap together, I've had friends go to Florida and Alabama for their first shot. 

I got my second Pfizer shot yesterday, only side effect is arm is a little sore, woke up early with a headache and a little sluggish. I do feel better after running 5 miles and will ride 10 or 12 after shoulder PT.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Wife got her 2nd Moderna on Saturday.

She felt a little tired and had a mild headache up through Sunday morning, but it wasn't anything extreme. She felt like she could have even gone to work if she had to.

My 2nd Moderna is coming up on Thursday. I only get one day to recuperate before I have to go to work, so here's hoping my response to it isn't too bad. But knowing how my immune system likes to get rowdy, I'm preparing myself (mentally) for a hard hit. A friend of mine spent 2 days in bed after his 2nd Moderna.

I've got a bunch of friends and family in the midwest getting the J&J vaccine in the past week or two, but I don't know anyone locally who's received that one. That vaccine alone seems to be swaying some of my family members who have been staunchly against getting one. Sister-in-law and brother-in-law both got the J&J (thought they weren't going to get one at all) and now my father-in-law and mother-in-law want to get it. I really hope they do.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

There was a neighborhood 'pop up vaccination' in Tucson last week, a friend and his wife got the J&J there. It's the only J&J I've heard of in Pima County.. here it's Pfizer for state-run and Moderna for County run. We'll have FEMA sites at some point too. 

I think the 'one and done' aspect is much more appealing to many.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Heres a twist. 
Wife got a standby J&J (she is a one and done) slot very shortly after her HCP sked her a Moderna 2 weeks later. She gets the shot, and doing the right thing, and after a “goat rope “ of 15 minutes on the phone, was able to cnx. the HCP Moderna appointment. Was told she could not cnx online.

So odd.


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

Got my second Pfizer Saturday. Arm soreness was the same as the first shot - similar to the geezer flu shot. Had a slight headache, but could well have been allergies too. Yesterday I felt too tired to ride, but I've been forcing myself to go out 6 days a week since last July and it might have just been fatigue. Rode hard today and felt great, I'd say any side effects were minimal.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

A ring of logic. My wife talked to her 2nd cousins wife (no joke) who cares for her 96 yr. old mother in law (lives next door). This is Northern MN farmland where they talk funny.

Wife’s cousin got vaccinated ‘cause much like a common cold response (ex. who gave you that?) there will be no second guessing if the m in law gets detrimentally covid sick.

Both got vaccinated, no sides.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Lovely fringe propaganda site there.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

dysfunction said:


> I think the 'one and done' aspect is much more appealing to many.


Maybe but my second Pfizer shot took literally 10 minutes and had zero side effects.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Just had my first pfizer yesterday as a standby. Really thought i should be eligible since i service numerous restaurants, food service, and hospital shops for work, but im not until next week. Anyway, its been about 30 hours. Only side effect has been shoulder soreness. Just went for an easy ride a few hours ago.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

@krankie. Need a cranky photo above your name.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Getting my 2nd pfizer shot today. Thinking about an easy ride right after. Anyone have any experience good or bad with such?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

the 2nd Moderna that I got yesterday is definitely hitting me harder than the first.

Most of the day yesterday was fine, but by the evening (~6hrs after), I was starting to get pretty sore. Injection site soreness as well as full body aches. Early this morning, I got up earlier than usual because the injection site pain and full body aches were pretty bad. Had a fever and took some meds. Went back to bed till 11am. I never sleep that late anymore. Now that afternoon is moving on, I'm starting to feel that soreness coming back as the meds slowly wear off. Taking it fairly easy today, but I've been functional.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Epidemiologist Dr. Larry Brilliant, best known for his work eradicating smallpox, on Thursday expressed concerns over new coronavirus variants and stressed the need for a backup plan in addition to vaccinations to control the pandemic.
"I'm quite worried about the variants. We seem to be getting not only many variants, but variants of concern almost every week," Brilliant told CNN's Erin Burnett. Daily new infections in the United States have plateaued at around 60,000, and public health experts warn that a fourth wave of the virus could be about to crash down on the country.
A coronavirus strain that originated in South Africa, for example, renders the AstraZeneca vaccine 90% ineffective, Brilliant pointed out. A variant first seen in Brazil can allow reinfection, and one that emerged in the United Kingdom is more transmissible.
"I do think we have to have a backup plan in addition to vaccinating everybody as fast as we can," said Brilliant. "I think we have to get really much better at outbreak containment, detecting of diseases, finding them, isolating them, and vaccinating them with the vaccine that matches the variant that our genomics tells us they have."
Burnett asked if vaccine booster shots being developed against the variants would be enough.
"I think it could be that the booster does it," Brilliant replied. "I'm hopeful that there'll be boosters that vaccinate us and immunize us for everything since the last vaccine we had. But, in addition, we will have dozens of vaccines and some will match better against certain variants."
Effectively matching the right vaccine to the right strain "will become more and more important" in future months, Brilliant predicted. 
*Copied from Yahoo news*


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## thegock (Jan 21, 2014)

SteveF said:


> Getting my 2nd pfizer shot today. Thinking about an easy ride right after. Anyone have any experience good or bad with such?


I got #2 Moderna at 3:15pm Monday and rode hard at noon Tuesday.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

33red said:


> "I think it could be that the booster does it," Brilliant replied. "I'm hopeful that there'll be boosters that vaccinate us and immunize us for everything since the last vaccine we had. But, in addition, we will have dozens of vaccines and some will match better against certain variants."
> *Copied from Yahoo news*


....and everybody on the thread will be lining up to get them all. Bahhhhhhhh


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

33red said:


> Epidemiologist Dr. Larry Brilliant, best known for his work eradicating smallpox, on Thursday expressed concerns over new coronavirus variants and stressed the need for a backup plan in addition to vaccinations to control the pandemic.


Late to the party Doc. Many, many ahead of you seeding fear and anxiety. Hey Doc. Wear a mask while doing the wild thing.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

EKram said:


> Late to the party Doc. Many, many ahead of you seeding fear and anxiety. Hey Doc. Wear a mask while doing the wild thing.


I just tought he was boosting profit$$$$$


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

*Is the Second Dose Bad? If I Feel OK, Is It Working? Can I Take Tylenol?*
_The most common questions about vaccination side effects, answered._

Every day nearly three million people in the United States are getting the Covid-19 vaccine. And every new jab prompts new questions about what to expect after vaccination.
Last week I asked readers to send me their questions about vaccinations. Here are some answers.
*Q: I've heard the Covid vaccine side effects, especially after the second dose, can be really bad. Should I be worried?*
Short-lived side effects like fatigue, headache, muscle aches and fever are more common after the second dose of both the Pfizer-BioNTech and the Moderna vaccines, which each require two shots. (The Johnson & Johnson vaccine requires only a single shot.) Patients who experience unpleasant side effects after the second dose often describe feeling as if they have a bad flu and use phrases like "it flattened me" or "I was useless for two days." During vaccine studies, patients were advised to schedule a few days off work after the second dose just in case they needed to spend a day or two in bed.
Data collected from v-safe, the app everyone is encouraged to use to track side effects after vaccination, also show an increase in reported side effects after the second dose. For instance, about 29 percent of people reported fatigue after the first Pfizer-BioNTech shot, but that jumped to 50 percent after the second dose. Muscle pain rose from 17 percent after the first shot to 42 percent after the second. While only about 7 percent of people got chills and fever after the first dose, that increased to about 26 percent after the second dose.
The New York Times interviewed several dozen of the newly vaccinated in the days afterward. They recounted a wide spectrum of responses, from no reaction at all to symptoms like uncontrolled shivering and "brain fog." While these experiences aren't pleasant, they are a sign that your own immune system is mounting a potent response to the vaccine.
*Q: Is it true that women are more likely to get worse side effects from the vaccine than men?*
An analysis from the first 13.7 million Covid-19 vaccine doses given to Americans found that side effects were more common in women. And while severe reactions to the Covid vaccine are rare, nearly all the cases of anaphylaxis, or life-threatening allergic reactions, occurred in women.
The finding that women are more likely to report and experience unpleasant side effects to the Covid vaccine is consistent with other vaccines as well. Women and girls can produce up to twice as many antibodies after receiving flu shots and vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella (M.M.R.) and hepatitis A and B. One study found that over nearly three decades, women accounted for 80 percent of all adult anaphylactic reactions to vaccines.

While it's true that women may be more likely to report side effects than men, the higher rate of side effects in women also has a biological explanation. Estrogen can stimulate an immune response, whereas testosterone can blunt it. In addition, many immune-related genes are on the X chromosome, of which women have two copies and men have only one. These differences may help explain why far more women than men are afflicted with autoimmune disease, which occurs when a robust immune response attacks the body's healthy tissue. You can read more about women and vaccine side effects here.
*Q: I didn't have any side effects. Does that mean my immune system didn't respond and the vaccine isn't working?*
Side effects get all the attention, but if you look at the data from vaccine clinical trials and the real world, you'll see that many people don't experience any side effects beyond a sore arm. In the Pfizer vaccine trials, about one out of four patients reported no side effects. In the Moderna trials, 57 percent of patients (64 or younger) reported side effects after the first dose - that jumped to 82 percent after the second dose, which means almost one in five patients reported no reaction after the second shot.
A lack of side effects does not mean the vaccine isn't working, said Dr. Paul Offit, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and a member of the Food and Drug Administration's vaccine advisory panel. Dr. Offit noted that during the vaccine trials, a significant number of people didn't report side effects, and yet the trials showed that about 95 percent of people were protected. "That proves you don't have to have side effects in order to be protected," he said.
Nobody really knows why some people have a lot of side effects and others have none. We do know that younger people mount stronger immune responses to vaccines than older people, whose immune systems get weaker with age. Women typically have stronger immune responses than men. But again, these differences don't mean that you aren't protected if you don't feel much after getting the shot.
Scientists still aren't sure how effective the vaccines are in people whose immune systems may be weakened from certain medical conditions, such as cancer treatments or H.I.V. infection or because they are taking immune suppressing drugs. But most experts believe the vaccines still offer these patients some protection against Covid-19.

The bottom line is that even though individual immune responses can vary, the data collected so far show that all three vaccines approved in the United States - Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson - are effective against severe illness and death from Covid-19.
*Q: I took Tylenol before I had my Covid vaccine shots and had very little reaction to the shots. Did I make a big mistake?*
You shouldn't try to stave off discomfort by taking a pain reliever before getting the shot. The concern is that premedicating with a pain reliever like acetaminophen (Tylenol) or ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin), which can prevent side effects like arm soreness as well as fever or headache, might also blunt your body's immune response.
While it's possible that taking a pain reliever before your shots might have dampened your body's immune response, vaccine experts say you shouldn't worry, and you shouldn't try to get another shot. Studies of other vaccines suggest that while premedicating can dull the body's immune response to a vaccine, your immune system can still mount a strong enough defense to fight infection. A review of studies of more than 5,000 children compared antibody levels in children who took pain relievers before and after vaccinations and those who did not. They found that pain relievers did not have a meaningful impact on immune response, and that children in both groups generated adequate levels of antibodies after their shots.
The high efficacy of all the Covid vaccines suggests that even if taking Tylenol before the shot did blunt your body's immune response, there's some wiggle room, and you are likely still well protected against Covid-19. "You should feel reassured that you'll have enough of an immune response that you'll will be protected, especially for vaccines that are this good," said Dr. Offit.
*Q: What about taking a pain reliever after the shot?*
"It's OK to treat" side effects with a pain reliever, said Dr. Offit, but if you don't really need one, "don't take it."
While most experts agree it's safe to take a pain reliever to relieve discomfort after you get vaccinated, they advise against taking it after the shot as a preventive or if your symptoms are manageable without it. The concern with taking an unnecessary pain reliever is that it could blunt some of the effects of the vaccine. (In terms of the vaccine, there's no meaningful difference if you choose acetaminophen or ibuprofen.)
During the Moderna trial, about 26 percent of people took acetaminophen to relieve side effects, and the overall efficacy of the vaccine still was 94 percent.
*Q: Are the side effects worse if you've already had Covid-19?*
Research and anecdotal reports suggest that people with a previously diagnosed Covid-19 infection may have a stronger reaction and more side effects after their first dose of vaccine compared to those who were never infected with the virus. A strong reaction to your first dose of vaccine also might be a sign that you were previously infected, even if you weren't aware of it.
If you previously tested positive for Covid-19 or had a positive antibody blood test, be prepared for a stronger reaction to your first dose, and consider scheduling a few days off work just in case. Not only will it be more comfortable to stay home and recover in bed, the vaccine side effects can resemble the symptoms of Covid-19, and your co-workers won't want to be near you anyway.
*Q: I had Covid-19 already. Does that mean I can just get one dose?*
Studies suggest that one dose might be adequate for people who have a previously confirmed case of Covid-19, but so far the medical guidelines haven't changed. If you've received the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines, you should plan to get your second dose even if you've had Covid-19. Skipping your second dose could create problems if your employer or an airline ask to see proof of vaccination in the future. If you live in an area where the single-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine is available, then you can be fully vaccinated after just one dose. You can read more here about the vaccine response in people who've had Covid-19.
*Q: Will the vaccines work against the new variants that have emerged around the world?*
The vaccines appear to be effective against a new variant that originated in Britain and is quickly becoming dominant in the United States. But some variants of the coronavirus, particularly one first identified in South Africa and one in Brazil, appear to be more adept at dodging antibodies in vaccinated people.
While that sounds worrisome, there's reason to be hopeful. Vaccinated people exposed to a more resistant variant still appear to be protected against serious illness. And scientists have a clear enough understanding of the variants that they already are working on developing booster shots that will target the variants. The variants identified in South Africa and Brazil are not yet widespread in the United States.
People who are vaccinated should still wear masks in public and comply with public health guidelines, but you shouldn't live in fear of variants, said Dr. Peter J. Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. "If you're vaccinated, you should feel pretty confident about how protected you are," said Dr. Hotez. "It's unlikely you'll ever go to a hospital or an I.C.U. with Covid-19. In time you're going to see a recommendation for a booster."
I hope these answers will reassure you about your own vaccine experience. You can find a more complete list of questions and answers in our special vaccine tool "Answers to All Your Questions About Getting Vaccinated Against Covid-19."

Link Is the Second Dose Bad? If I Feel OK, Is It Working? Can I Take Tylenol?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Moderna. First shot, nothing. Second shot kicked my butt. Took 12 hrs to hit after the shot. Couple of hours of fever and bad chills, body aches. Felt great about 30 hrs after the shot. My wife had only a very mild reaction. 

FWIW, I had a strong reaction to my first Shingrix shot a couple years ago, and nothing to the second. The reaction to the first was nowhere near as strong as to the second Moderna shot.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

EKram said:


> Late to the party Doc. Many, many ahead of you seeding fear and anxiety. Hey Doc. Wear a mask while doing the wild thing.


I have an idea, let's play the fear card followed by the panic card...
Fed up with that crap, I am...


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)




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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

You might think, this pandemic being worldwide, there must be be some smart docs, that have ways to get the pandemic straightened out. The WHO seems useless.

I am stymied by how long, only the US pharma, have made some progress. Viewing post 531, Is the US lab mice for the rest of the world?


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

thegock said:


> I got #2 Moderna at 3:15pm Monday and rode hard at noon Tuesday.


Thanks, more or less what I did as well. I got the shot at 2pm friday, but found other things needed doing so I didn't ride until mid day saturday. Aside from soreness at the injection site, I had no side effects.


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## ilanarama (May 20, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> Moderna. First shot, nothing. Second shot kicked my butt. Took 12 hrs to hit after the shot. Couple of hours of fever and bad chills, body aches. Felt great about 30 hrs after the shot. My wife had only a very mild reaction.
> 
> FWIW, I had a strong reaction to my first Shingrix shot a couple years ago, and nothing to the second. The reaction to the first was nowhere near as strong as to the second Moderna shot.


My experience was the exact opposite of yours - my first Shingrix shot didn't affect me at all and the second put me in bed for a day with pseudo-flu. I got the J&J and had a mild headache for 2 days but nothing else.


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## SoDakSooner (Nov 23, 2005)

2nd Pfizer shot today. We will see. Group ride planned for tomorrow and hopefully some Zwift tonight and Weds.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Wife had pfirst Pfizer shot Saturday. Just a sore arm and a headache. I had mine this afternoon. I wouldn't believe they gave me anything if I didn't see the nice lady jab me with my own eyes. Went for a 13 mile ride an hour later. 

The site was a drivethru, with almost no line. Super quick experience.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

I am a teacher, so I was able to get my Pfizer shots in February and March. The first dose was no problem, the second one put my on the couch for a full day with flu-like symptoms. Unfortunately, the outbreaks in school-aged children are growing here, forcing us back to virtual learning this week. Hopefully this will pass quickly and we can finish the school year without any more interruptions.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

deuxdiesel said:


> I am a teacher, so I was able to get my Pfizer shots in February and March. The first dose was no problem, the second one put my on the couch for a full day with flu-like symptoms. Unfortunately, the outbreaks in school-aged children are growing here, forcing us back to virtual learning this week. Hopefully this will pass quickly and we can finish the school year without any more interruptions.


While in my part of the US, schools are hoping to (almost) fully reopen in a few weeks based on shaky science.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Yup...a restaurant we recently dined at just announced that multiple staff had the covids, as well as patrons. Fugg me with a broom handle. At least those in my party are fully or partially vaccinated...


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Crankout said:


> While in my part of the US, schools are hoping to (almost) fully reopen in a few weeks based on shaky science.


With the exception of a few days here and there, we have been in person all year. Strict mask wearing and contact tracing through seating charts has really helped.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

deuxdiesel said:


> With the exception of a few days here and there, we have been in person all year. Strict mask wearing and contact tracing through seating charts has really helped.


Are you going by 3 or 6 feet, and are you routinely testing the kids?


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

In theory we are 6' apart, but in practice it's more like 4-5' apart. No regular testing, just very aggressive contact tracing when a positive is reported. My wife is a virologist, and her lab is seeing a massive increase in positivity rates among school-aged children right now, many who are symptomatic, so the whole "kids don't get sick and only carry it" may be something else that is not 100% correct.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

deuxdiesel said:


> In theory we are 6' apart, but in practice it's more like 4-5' apart. No regular testing, just very aggressive contact tracing when a positive is reported. My wife is a virologist, and her lab is seeing a massive increase in positivity rates among school-aged children right now, many who are symptomatic, so the whole "kids don't get sick and only carry it" may be something else that is not 100% correct.


I find the amount of misinformation to be repulsive. Folks really need to carefully get on with life, period. The idea that kids cannot become sick is pure rubbish. If they are virulent, they have been or are sick. Of course there will be the percentage that are asymptomatic.

On the bright side, this pathogen is not cancer... Nor is it one of those bugs that has a higher than 90% mortality rate.
And to further the bright side, there are vaccines in regular distribution. Being a "special care cat", I was vaccinated early. Now, Commandant Polis is going to make the vaccination available to all in the next 30 days or less. Hopefully, that helps this situation come to be less a fear or panic card for the media to continue playing.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Been reading through and trying to digest this









SPI-M-O: Summary of further modelling of easing restrictions – Roadmap Step 2, 31 March 2021


Statement from the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling, Operational sub-group (SPI-M-O).




www.gov.uk





Not good, not surprised.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

deuxdiesel said:


> In theory we are 6' apart, but in practice it's more like 4-5' apart. No regular testing, just very aggressive contact tracing when a positive is reported. My wife is a virologist, and her lab is seeing a massive increase in positivity rates among school-aged children right now, many who are symptomatic, so the whole "kids don't get sick and only carry it" may be something else that is not 100% correct.


I was questioning that theory re: kids not being 'super-spreaders', etc. The notion that kids do not spread it is the basis for the re-opening argument. Is there an increase in your school community? We'll find out within a month here....


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

BansheeRune said:


> I find the amount of misinformation to be repulsive. Folks really need to carefully get on with life, period. The idea that kids cannot become sick is pure rubbish. If they are virulent, they have been or are sick. Of course there will be the percentage that are asymptomatic.
> 
> On the bright side, this pathogen is not cancer... Nor is it one of those bugs that has a higher than 90% mortality rate.
> And to further the bright side, there are vaccines in regular distribution. Being a "special care cat", I was vaccinated early. Now, Commandant Polis is going to make the vaccination available to all in the next 30 days or less. Hopefully, that helps this situation come to be less a fear or panic card for the media to continue playing.


'Carefully' is the key word. While the mortality may be around 1-2%, I still want no part of it (well, I'm good but others are not yet in terms of vaccinations). A significant resurgence means going back to those limitations that sucked the life out of everyone.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

At first it was only senior citizens that had to worry. They stayed home while the 30,40 somethings went to work, the bar, etc. Then cases rose in middle age groups, but teens/college kids were ok. Then they all kept partying and went to Miami. Then cases rose but kids were ok, so lets re-open schools. Then child cases rose. At the same time the vaccine was available to seniors, then the age of eligibility lowered and lowered, many states are 16 and up now. 

My smooth brained armchair science says that a virus needs hosts. When those hosts are no longer viable (dead, vaccinated, or just staying home), the virus moves on to a new target group. Once all the 16 and up are vaccinated, cases in children are gonna go up. Kids are resistant, not immune. And all this time the virus has been learning, getting stronger. 

Hopefully we can continue the pace of vaccinations and outrun the virus.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Everybody's right. I've been overthinking this. My drugstore scheduled my 2nd Moderna shot 4 days before the 28 day due date. This is allowed, but not recommended, by CDC guidelines. I've decided I should just take the early shot rather than worry about trying to schedule one for 28 days+. The pharmacist scheduled it then and they know what works. Also, I'll just get it over with sooner this way (day after tomorrow).


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Crankout said:


> I was questioning that theory re: kids not being 'super-spreaders', etc. The notion that kids do not spread it is the basis for the re-opening argument. Is there an increase in your school community? We'll find out within a month here....


Another great MedCram Q&A
Daniel Griffin, MD, PhD answers questions about misconceptions about children and COVID-19

A short side note on 3' Vs. 6' separation of desks in school at time 32:00
A discussion on the clearing of "long term" symptoms after vaccination as well. The whole thing is worth a look.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Another great MedCram Q&A
> Daniel Griffin, MD, PhD answers questions about misconceptions about children and COVID-19
> 
> A short side note on 3' Vs. 6' separation of desks in school at time 32:00
> A discussion on the clearing of "long term" symptoms after vaccination as well. The whole thing is worth a look.


Thanks. That helps put my mind at ease.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Scheduled my 2nd dose of #teamPfizer on 4/13. Can't believe I'm all giddy about intentionally getting a few days of flu-like symptoms (maybe).


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)




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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

the one ring said:


> Scheduled my 2nd dose of #teamPfizer on 4/13. Can't believe I'm all giddy about intentionally getting a few days of flu-like symptoms (maybe).


I'm a week behind you (also #teamPfizer) on April 19. I've never been so excited to get flu symptoms before, given how much I got them in the first one (all sorts of fun flu symptoms with in the first 18 hours, then fatigue and a headache for a week).

One of my riding buddies has long hauler's symptoms. He's signed up for the J&J and will hopefully get his next week. I've never been able to keep up with up him riding before, and now it feels like he's slowed down a lot, so I'd like to see him get back to himself.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

There is so much information/disinformation out there it's not even funny, but what's weird to me is that I remember going to the doctor for myself or my kids for flu-like symptoms and the doctor saying "We can't really do much for a viral infection, just treat the symptoms". 
And now, since I haven't received the vaccine (or even look forward to it), I'm regarded as the wierdo or anti-vaxxer because I'm cautious or that I question things...Strange days.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Treatment and prevention are two different things. There aren't many viral infections that can be treated, which is WHY vaccination to prevent them in the first place is how they're dealt with. I'm not an expert, but I googled it and the first 542,000,000 results said so. 

By your own logic, your knowledge of viral infections being difficult to treat should be the exact reason you want to get a vaccine.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

upstateSC-rider said:


> ...for flu-like symptoms and the doctor saying "We can't really do much for a viral infection, just treat the symptoms".
> And now, since I haven't received the vaccine (or even look forward to it), I'm regarded as the wierdo or anti-vaxxer because I'm cautious or that I question things...Strange days.


While that's not as true as it once was (treating viral infections is becoming more of a reality -- ask Trump about monoclonals), it's *EXACTLY THE REASON* you want to get the vaccine for this (or any problematic) virus -- don't let it get a foothold by having your immune system "locked-and-loaded" for when it shows up.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

My wife’s tennis partner and her husband got the Pfizer vaccine last week here in So Cal, second dose. Two days later the husband, 59, had a stroke. No underlying issues or adverse history whatsoever. Active, good tennis player. He had no issues with dose 1. Prognosis is good, no paralysis, but not good for his lifestyle. Can’t play tennis now, no clue when or if he ever can again. Sure as hell wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Makes me think twice about getting a vaccine, especially since I had COVID in January and have confirmed antibodies via blood test. 

Think we will be hearing more of this kind of thing as time passes. Obviously there are some issues with the Astra Zeneca one as well. Right now rare and negative reports are outliers, but...early days.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

1 in 3 COVID-19 Survivors Diagnosed with Neurological or Psychiatric Disorder, Study Shows

Link to _Lancet Psychiatry_ journal article.


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## Buster (Jan 4, 2004)

My wife and I got our 2nd Pfizer shot yesterday. Both of us feel fine this morning. Had a little soreness yesterday in our upper arms and I still feel some of that today, but that's it so far. No flu like symptoms. Both of us are 56 years old, fwiw.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

MattMay said:


> My wife's tennis partner and her husband got the Pfizer vaccine last week here in So Cal, second dose. Two days later the husband, 59, had a stroke. No underlying issues or adverse history whatsoever. Active, good tennis player. He had no issues with dose 1. Prognosis is good, no paralysis, but not good for his lifestyle. Can't play tennis now, no clue when or if he ever can again. Sure as hell wouldn't wish that on anyone. Makes me think twice about getting a vaccine, especially since I had COVID in January and have confirmed antibodies via blood test.
> 
> Think we will be hearing more of this kind of thing as time passes. Obviously there are some issues with the Astra Zeneca one as well. Right now rare and negative reports are outliers, but...early days.


That sucks to hear and why a healthy person like me (46 years old) who hasn't had the flu in 22 years has no business or reason the get the vaccine RIGHT NOW.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Correlation != causation


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

How is it in your country? I am a Canadian, 63, healthy and will probably be eligible soon.
I am thinking of first getting tested to know if i had covid.
Do they just vaccine or test you first?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

33red said:


> How is it in your country? I am a Canadian, 63, healthy and will probably be eligible soon.
> I am thinking of first getting tested to know if i had covid.
> Do they just vaccine or test you first?


no reason to test prior to vaccination.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Ripbird said:


> That sucks to hear and why a healthy person like me (46 years old) who hasn't had the flu in 22 years has no business or reason the get the vaccine RIGHT NOW.


there are potential side effects for anything. Tylenol is a drug with particularly nasty side effects that people don't think twice about. not to mention, we have zero evidence that the vaccine caused anything. it's possible, but no proof.

AND, there's every reason for those young and healthy to get vaccinated ASAP. because young and healthy people are more social, they're more mobile, and more of them are still working. so they have a higher likelihood of spreading the virus around if they get it. so get the damn vaccine when you can so we can move past this thing.


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

First dose of Moderna, no problems slight headache sore arm..
2nd dose put my 53 yr old wife in bed with flu like chills for a day then she felt great.
I have been dealing with severe headaches and lightheaded or dizziness for a few days.60yrs old

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yes, staying out of the sun will make you sick. Doctors tell you to stay in the shade so they can make more money. It's all a scam.

JFC.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Buster said:


> My wife and I got our 2nd Pfizer shot yesterday. Both of us feel fine this morning. Had a little soreness yesterday in our upper arms and I still feel some of that today, but that's it so far. No flu like symptoms. Both of us are 56 years old, fwiw.


Good to hear. Did you react at all to the first one?


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## RobertRinAustin (Dec 16, 2020)

Got first Pfizer last week, tired that afternoon, sore arm for a few days. Wife felt mild coldish for a day or so (could have easily been allergies). We're both 53.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I got my Astrazeneca Vaccine this morning. If I develop an extra penis as side effect? should I notify the health authority? I would rather keep it secret.


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

stripes said:


> Good to hear. Did you react at all to the first one?


I had a slight headache, the wife had no issues with the 1st

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I have many people (at least 12+) that are in various stages of all 3 vaccines. So far some minor sides here and there. Nobody really mentioning if they can 100% say if their vaccine is the culprit of anything other than a sore arm-no definitive way to tell, I guess.

Wife says vaccine sides can’t be any worse than the sides they talk about at the end of a pill commercial. -got that right.

I had some related or non related post vaccine chills, wife nothing.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

33red said:


> I am thinking of first getting tested to know if i had covid.


Why? Required in Canada? I know people who have had Covid then test negative later on.
May as well get tested for other stuff too.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

My husband got his first dose of the covid vaccine (Moderna) on his birthday last weekend. Like myself, no side effects other than a sore arm. The vaccine has not slowed him down 

I received my first dose (Pfizer) December 23, 2020 and second one a few weeks later. I've had no issues, continue to work FT and play.


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## 4212darren (Nov 15, 2005)

Im 57 got the Astra a few days ago and was tired the day after with a bit of sore arm but that's it. Had a hard ride 3 days after.


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## Buster (Jan 4, 2004)

stripes said:


> Good to hear. Did you react at all to the first one?


Got our shots at 730am both times, and we both felt tired that evening after the 1st shot. We also got text message reminders for our appointments at 430am so sleep was a bit interrupted. It's hard to say whether the way we felt had anything to do with the vaccines or were just caused by lack of sleep.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

cyclelicious said:


> I've had no issues, continue to work FT and play.


I've had no issues, continue to work FT and play. I've passed up the shot many times and feel no need to get the experiment at THIS time.

My brother who travels for work, received his first shot 3-30 and was Covid + on 4-10 after being COVID tested in those 12 days. Unlike most if not all of you, my brother is tested weekly for work(sometimes more) depending on when he travels from City to City/ job to job.

My point is, you're not always right and not always wrong whether you decide to get the vaccine or not. To point a finger and scold someone who decides not to get the shot and treat/ speak to them as they are a child when you NO nothing about them is Ridiculous .


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

56 here; had COVID in November, with mild symptoms.

Got Moderna #1 five weeks ago, at about midday. Shoulder was quite sore, and I had moderate fatigue, aches and chills through the next day. Woke up the second morning after feeling 100%. Moderna #2 last week, with pretty much the same effects.

I'm otherwise fit and healthy, with no co-morbidities. I didn't think twice about getting the shot, nor did I worry about it.

My wife, age 53, gets Pfizer #1 tomorrow, after having had COVID in February.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)




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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

shred79 said:


> I had a slight headache, the wife had no issues with the 1st
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


Cool. My first one was 2 weeks ago. With my asthma and having a past history of pneumonia, i was really happy to get this. I had a flu like reaction for the first 18 hours, then a headache and fatigue on and off.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I got my 2nd shot of Moderna 4 weeks ago. STILL no side effects.
Am I safe?


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Radium said:


> I got my 2nd shot of Moderna 4 weeks ago. STILL no side effects.
> Am I safe?


Please let some of us know 8 years from now.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Radium said:


> Am I safe?


I suspect the need to revisit or reinforce personal hygiene practices.
Back that up with keeping the immune system optimized.
Shots or masks help, as an aid to better health.
Covid seems to be a singular problem to talk/agonize about but consider all the other attacks on our health [choose the affliction]. I think we can be sure those items are still there.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

EKram said:


> I suspect the need to revisit or reinforce personal hygiene practices.
> Back that up with keeping the immune system optimized.
> Shots or masks help, as an aid to better health.
> Covid seems to be a singular problem to talk/agonize about but consider all the other attacks on our health [choose the affliction]. I think we can be sure those items are still there.


For sure. I had my 6 month oncology follow up appointment at 9:00 am last friday and my 2nd moderna shot at noon.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Radium said:


> I got my 2nd shot of Moderna 4 weeks ago. STILL no side effects.
> Am I safe?


No.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

joeduda said:


> For sure. I had my 6 month oncology follow up appointment at 9:00 am last friday and my 2nd moderna shot at noon.


I combined my colonoscopy with my upper endoscopy. Now I know what it's like to be on a rotisserie.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Radium said:


> I got my 2nd shot of Moderna 4 weeks ago. STILL no side effects.
> Am I safe?


Sure....if you think you are. Odds are you were fine before and you'd still be fine if you didn't elect to get the experimental vaccine. We'll get back to you in a few years and let you know. In the meantime, get in line for your vaccine boosters for the South African, UK and Brazilian variants. News out just today that the South African variant was able to "break through" the Pfizer vaccine.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I got a headache. I took Tylenol for it 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

k2rider1964 said:


> News out just today that the South African variant was able to "break through" the Pfizer vaccine.


Anytime an infection occurs despite vaccination it's called a breakthrough. All the vaccines allow this to varying degrees with all the variants. In every study I've seen though, vaccination significantly decreases the risk of severe disease regardless of the variant (so far). If we wait another couple of years before widespread vaccination, though, I'm sure the happy human petri dishes will manage to breed up a truly resistant variant.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I'll be so happy once this is all over. (Don't deal well with needles). Every 5 minutes it seems there are pictures on the news or in the internet. I'm over it. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Shark said:


> I'll be so happy once this is all over. (Don't deal well with needles). Every 5 minutes it seems there are pictures on the news or in the internet. I'm over it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


As long as there's a huge group of people unwilling to get vaccines, this will continue to be a problem. Like you, I'm also over it and also don't deal well with needles.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

The reporting agencies need to chill.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

All this news just create alot of anxiety for me 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

When Dr. Ryan Cole starts with "I have no agenda", you should raise your eyebrows. Idaho is not the same as everywhere else, and his statistics and methodology are not applicable everywhere. My wife, who works in a virology lab, has done nothing but COVID tests for the past 14 months. 1200 a night herself, 5 days a week, so do the math yourself. Her statistics and data are not the same as Dr. Cole's. All this is here in MI, and can't be compared to other places. We were doing so well, and now we are out of control even with the vaccinations on the increase. I do not mean to imply that Dr. Cole is purposefully misleading people like Scott Atlas was, but Idaho is very different in many ways than other states.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

deuxdiesel said:


> . All this is here in MI, and can't be compared to other places. We were doing so well, and now we are out of control even with the vaccinations on the increase. I do not mean to imply that Dr. Cole is purposefully misleading people like Scott Atlas was, but Idaho is very different in many ways than other states.


We concur. My wife (a bookkeeper by trade) has given up on watching statistics. Nothing is standardized, numbers do not add up or can be balance sheet justified.

Misinformation rules anymore. Anything that causes fear and anxiety prevails.


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

Got Pfizer number two at 1030 AM today! So far, no side effects!


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## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

Got my #2nd moderna the other day. Woke up early with body chills, which persisted throughout the night, followed by a slight headache and bodyaches. The fun lasted about 36 hours.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Moderna #2 about 50 hours ago. So far side effects are no big deal. Arm soreness, feeling a bit achy and out of it the next day, but pretty normal today. Nothing worth dreading.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

ridetheridge said:


> Got my #2nd moderna the other day. Woke up early with body chills, which persisted throughout the night, followed by a slight headache and bodyaches. The fun lasted about 36 hours.


Glad you are on the mend!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

k2rider1964 said:


> Sure....if you think you are. Odds are you were fine before and you'd still be fine if you didn't elect to get the experimental vaccine. We'll get back to you in a few years and let you know. In the meantime, get in line for your vaccine boosters for the South African, UK and Brazilian variants. News out just today that the South African variant was able to "break through" the Pfizer vaccine.


Experimental? Oh boy...


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

Crankout said:


> Experimental? Oh boy...


Yes, that's exactly what it is, except we don't have a tail.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Ripbird said:


> Yes, that's exactly what it is, except we don't have a tail.


So what is the point of crapping on this thread? Nobody is forcing you to get a vaccine, and if those of us who did get it end up with side effects in the future, are you going to gloat? Please explain. Personally, I see it as another step in a string of uncomfortable things (masks, social distancing...) that myself and others are doing to right the ship sooner.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Had my first Moderna yesterday, got a bit light and warm headed but nothing big and that went away later in the day.
Also had a rough night before and was tired so that might played into that.
Today only my arm is a bit uncomfortable but nothing a quick ride cant fix.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Got my second Pfizer yesterday morning. Nothing but a sore arm at this point.

Really excited to now make plans to take Dad (88) up to the cabin!


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Got my second Pfizer yesterday morning. Nothing but a sore arm at this point.


Same and same.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Another MedCram on "Johnson and Johnson Vaccine Pause: A Rare Blood Clot Called Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis (CVST)"
Vaccinations have been suspended out of "an abundance of caution". I wouldn't hesitate to get the vaccine, but as the motto at Faber College (Animal House) says, "Knowledge is good".

Relative risks of this are explained at time 9:30.






Sounds very similar (in cause, if not result) to the event from January: Investigation into Florida doctor who died two weeks after COVID-19 vaccine

Bottom line: 23:10


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've heard of schadenfreude before, but never of 'anticipatory schadenfreude'. Some of these 'anti-vaccer' people seem genuinely vindictive.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

MSU Alum said:


> but as the motto at Faber College (Animal House) says, "Knowledge is good".


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Thought this was some very encouraging news from Canada. SaNOtize's "revolutionary" Covid-19 nasal spray bolstered by Phase II trial


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

I got my second shot of Moderna yesterday evening. Today I’m achy, chilled, food taste slightly different, small headache and I have a low fever. It’s all worth it for the immunity!


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Yesterday afternoon (about 30 hours after my second Pfizer shot) I had a moderate headache, slight fever (99.5F) and some noticeable but minor neck and back aches. By the time I went to bed those were all gone.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

MattMay said:


> Thought this was some very encouraging news from Canada. SaNOtize's "revolutionary" Covid-19 nasal spray bolstered by Phase II trial


That's really interesting. 
L-Arginine dramatically raises NO as well

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

MSU Alum said:


> Another MedCram on "Johnson and Johnson Vaccine Pause: A Rare Blood Clot Called Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis (CVST)"
> Vaccinations have been suspended out of "an abundance of caution". I wouldn't hesitate to get the vaccine, but as the motto at Faber College (Animal House) says, "Knowledge is good".
> 
> Relative risks of this are explained at time 9:30.
> ...


At least it is super-rare. Odds of danger are worse when driving your car.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Does Dr Michael Yeadon give anyone in here pause? 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Got my 1st 2 days ago, Pfizer. Sore arm and slight flu-like symptoms, not horrible.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

What I find super encouraging about all of these vaccine reactions is that they describe almost exactly what I experienced when I actually got COVID in January — at the time I thought it was a mild flu and not COVID since I had no cough or high fever. It was only when I decided to get an antibody blood test, which was positive for antibodies, did I learn I had it.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

_At least it is super-rare. Odds of danger are worse when driving your car._

6.8 million J and J doses given, 6 people had serious side effects. Literally less than 1 in 1 million. Pretty good odds.

I got the Pfizer vaccine over a month ago. Gearing up for my first MTNB road trip


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

WHALENARD said:


> Does Dr Michael Yeadon give anyone in here pause?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) usin


Yes, he gives me pause. Why is he trying to sabotage this part of the recovery plan?


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

MattMay said:


> What I find super encouraging about all of these vaccine reactions is that they describe almost exactly what I experienced when I actually got COVID in January - at the time I thought it was a mild flu and not COVID since I had no cough or high fever. It was only when I decided to get an antibody blood test, which was positive for antibodies, did I learn I had it.


Natural immunity looks at the entire virus and not just the spike protein and like SARS-COVID-1 natural immunity antibodies last upwards to 2 years and T/B memory cells last a lifetime. Pretty much a one and done thing once you had it. Who knows what effect these "vaccines" will have on peoples natural immunity for those getting the "vaccine" after they had it?








COVID Vaccines Focus on the Spike Protein – But Here’s Another Target


New research shows why the N protein might be a good target.




www.discovermagazine.com


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

In the US, 77,000,000 have been fully vaccinated, of which 5800 when on to develop COVID-19 anyway. That is a .007% rate of infection out of all those vaccinated. Amazing. The CDC and vaccine developers knew there would be infections despite vaccination but this super low rate surpassed expectations.

I am receiving my second Moderna shot this morning.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

beastmaster said:


> In the US, 77,000,000 have been fully vaccinated, of which 5800 when on to develop COVID-19 anyway. That is a .007% rate of infection out of all those vaccinated. Amazing. The CDC and vaccine developers knew there would be infections despite vaccination but this super low rate surpassed expectations.
> 
> I am receiving my second Moderna shot this morning.


That's not a static figure though.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## beastmaster (Sep 19, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> That's not a static figure though.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


OK...


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

beastmaster said:


> In the US, 77,000,000 have been fully vaccinated, of which 5800 when on to develop COVID-19 anyway. That is a .007% rate of infection out of all those vaccinated. Amazing. The CDC and vaccine developers knew there would be infections despite vaccination but this super low rate surpassed expectations.
> 
> I am receiving my second Moderna shot this morning.


One of those 5800 was the Governor of my beautiful state, Montana. He got the first shot then immediately went galavanting around without a mask with other maskless people and......of course, got Covid. Many tried to make a big deal out of it and say the vaccine didn't work. However, most children could have followed the directions better than he did and they would know that a couple of days after the first shot your body does not have immunity. His wife got it too and now they have shut down the capitol because more and more legislators keep getting it.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Zguitar71 said:


> One of those 5800 was the Governor of my beautiful state, Montana. He got the first shot then immediately went galavanting around without a mask with other maskless people and......of course, got Covid. Many tried to make a big deal out of it and say the vaccine didn't work. However, most children could have followed the directions better than he did and they would know that a couple of days after the first shot your body does not have immunity. His wife got it too and now they have shut down the capitol because more and more legislators keep getting it.


Yeah. The Israeli experience (data) is that the probability of getting Bat-Fever goes up slightly within the first week of getting the first dose.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

I just snorted a line of asbestos dust and drank a shot of mercury. Feel fine. No side effects whatsoever.


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## wayold (Nov 25, 2017)

Lopaka said:


> I just snorted a line of asbestos dust and drank a shot of mercury. Feel fine. No side effects whatsoever.


If you'd worked in my old lab you could've had that with a side of Plutonium. God knows after 10 years of that I'm probably living on borrowed time. Still got my shot(s).


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

*Can the Covid Vaccine Protect Me Against Virus Variants?*

_Vaccines do a good job of protecting us from coronavirus, but fear and confusion about the rise of variants have muddled the message. Here are answers to common questions._

The news about coronavirus variants can sound like a horror movie, with references to a "double-mutant" virus, "vaccine-evading" variants and even an "Eek" mutation. One headline warned ominously: "The devil is already here."
While it's true that the virus variants are a significant public health concern, the unrelenting focus on each new variant has created undue alarm and a false impression that vaccines don't protect us against the various variants that continue to emerge.
"I use the term 'scariants,'" said Dr. Eric Topol, professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research in La Jolla, Calif., referring to much of the media coverage of the variants. "Even my wife was saying, 'What about this double mutant?' It drives me nuts. People are scared unnecessarily. If you're fully vaccinated, two weeks post dose, you shouldn't have to worry about variants at all."
Viruses are constantly changing, and new variants have been emerging and circulating around the world throughout the pandemic. Some mutations don't matter, but others can make things much worse by creating a variant that spreads faster or makes people sicker. While the rise of more infectious variants has caused cases of Covid-19 to surge around the world, the risk is primarily to the unvaccinated, for whom there is great concern. While vaccination efforts are well underway in the United States and many other developed countries, huge swaths of the world's population remain vulnerable, with some countries yet to report having administered a single dose.

But for the vaccinated, the outlook is much more hopeful. While it's true that the vaccines have different success rates against different variants, the perception that they don't work against variants at all is incorrect. In fact, the available vaccines have worked remarkably well so far, not just at preventing infection but, most important, at preventing serious illness and hospitalization, even as new variants circulate around the globe.

The variants are "all the more reason to get vaccinated," said Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease specialist. "The bottom line is the vaccines we are using very well protect against the most dominant variant we have right now, and to varying degrees protect against serious disease among several of the other variants."
Part of the confusion stems from what vaccine efficacy really means and the use of terms like "vaccine evasion," which sounds a lot scarier than it is. In addition, the fact that two vaccines have achieved about 95 percent efficacy has created unrealistic expectations about what it takes for a vaccine to perform well.

Here are answers to common questions about the variants and the vaccines being used to stop Covid-19.

*Which variant am I most likely to encounter in the United States?*
The variant called B.1.1.7, which was first identified in Britain, is now the most common source of new infections in the United States. This highly contagious variant is also fueling the spread of the virus in Europe and has been found in 114 countries. A mutation allows this version of the virus to more effectively attach to cells. Carriers may also shed much higher levels of virus and stay infectious longer.

The main concern about B.1.1.7 is that it is highly infectious and spreads quickly among the unvaccinated, potentially overwhelming hospitals in areas where cases are surging.

*Do the vaccines work against B.1.1.7?*
All of the major vaccines in use - Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, AstraZeneca, Sputnik and Novavax - have been shown to be effective against B.1.1.7. We know this from a variety of studies and indicators. First, scientists have used the blood of vaccinated patients to study how well vaccine antibodies bind to a variant in a test tube. The vaccines have all performed relatively well against B.1.1.7. There's also clinical trial data, particularly from Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca (which is the most widely used vaccine around the world), that shows they are highly effective against both preventing infection and serious illness in areas where B.1.1.7 is circulating. And in Israel, for instance, where 80 percent of the eligible population is vaccinated (all with the Pfizer shot), case counts are plummeting, even as schools, restaurants and workplaces open up, suggesting that vaccines are tamping down new infections, including those caused by variants.

*If the vaccines are working, why do I keep hearing about "breakthrough" cases?*
No vaccine is foolproof, and even though the Covid vaccines are highly protective, sometimes vaccinated people still get infected. But breakthrough cases of vaccinated people are very rare, even as variants are fueling a surge in case counts. And the vaccines clearly prevent severe illness and hospitalization in the few vaccinated patients who do get infected.

So what's the risk of getting infected after vaccination? Nobody knows for sure, but we have some clues. During the Moderna trial, for instance, only 11 patients out of 15,210 who were vaccinated got infected. Both Pfizer and Moderna now are doing more detailed studies of breakthrough cases among vaccinated trial participants, and should be releasing that data soon.

Two real-world studies of vaccinated health care workers, who have a much higher risk of virus exposure than the rest of us, offer hopeful signs. One study found that just four out of 8,121 fully vaccinated employees at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas became infected. The other found that only seven out of 14,990 workers at UC San Diego Health and the David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles, tested positive two or more weeks after receiving a second dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines. Both reports were published in the New England Journal of Medicine, and are a sign that even as cases were surging in the United States, breakthrough cases were uncommon, even among individuals who were often exposed to sick patients. Most important, patients who were infected after vaccination had mild symptoms. Some people had no symptoms at all, and were discovered only through testing in studies or as part of their unrelated medical care.

Researchers are still studying whether the variants eventually might increase the number of breakthrough cases or if vaccine antibodies begin to wane over time. So far, data from Moderna show the vaccine still remains 90 percent effective after at least six months. Pfizer has reported similar results.

A recent study of 149 people in Israel who became infected after vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine suggested that a variant first identified in South Africa was more likely to cause breakthrough infections. However, those eight infections occurred between days seven and 13 following the second dose. "We didn't see any South Africa variant 14 days after the second dose," said Adi Stern, the study's senior author, a professor at the Shmunis School of Biomedicine and Cancer Research, Tel Aviv University. "It was a small sample size, but it's very possible that two weeks after the second dose, maybe the protection level goes up and that blocks the South Africa variant completely. It gives us more room for optimism."
For now, the variants don't appear to be increasing the rate of infection in vaccinated people, but that could change as more data are collected. Read more about breakthrough cases here.

*Are there other variants we should be worried about?*
The C.D.C. is tracking more than a dozen variants, but only a few qualify as "variants of concern," which is a public health designation to identify variants that could be more transmissible or have other qualities that make them more of a risk. The main additional variants everyone is talking about right now are the B.1.351, which was first detected in South Africa, and the P.1, which was first identified in Brazil. While there are other variants (including two "California" variants, B.1.427 and B.1.429, and a New York variant, B.1.526), for now, it seems that the South Africa and Brazil variants (which as of late March together accounted for about 2 percent of cases in the United States) are causing the most concern. While a new variant can emerge at any time, existing variants also compete with each other for dominance. One interesting new development: In countries like the United States where B.1.1.7 is dominant, some of the other variants seem to be getting crowded out, making them less of a worry.

*Is it true that the variants first identified in South Africa and Brazil can "evade" the vaccines?*
There is a concern that the B.1.351 and the P.1 are better at dodging vaccine antibodies than other variants. But that doesn't mean the vaccines don't work at all. It just means the level of protection you get from the vaccines against these variants could be lower than when the shots were studied against early forms of the virus. Among the variants, the B.1.351 may pose the biggest challenge so far. It has a key mutation - called E484K, and often shortened to "Eek" - that can help the virus evade some, but probably not all, antibodies.

Remember that there's a lot of "cushion" provided by this current crop of vaccines, so even if a vaccine is less effective against a variant, it appears that it's still going to do a good job of protecting you from serious illness.

*How much protection will the vaccines give me against the variant first seen in South Africa?*
We don't yet have precise estimates of vaccine effectiveness against B.1.351, which may be the most challenging variant so far. But studies show that the various vaccines still lower overall risk for infection and help prevent severe disease. A large study of Johnson & Johnson's one-dose vaccine in South Africa found it was about 85 percent effective at preventing severe disease, and lowered risk for mild to moderate disease by 64 percent. (Distribution of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has been paused as health officials investigate safety concerns.) The AstraZeneca vaccine did not do much to protect against mild illness caused by B.1.351, but scientists said they believed the vaccine might protect against more severe cases, based on the immune responses detected in blood samples from people who were given it. There's less definitive research for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against the variant, but it's believed that these two-dose vaccines could reduce risk of infection against the variant by about 60 percent to 70 percent and still are highly effective at preventing severe disease and hospitalization.
"From everything we know today, there is still protection from the vaccines against the South Africa variant," said Dr. Stern.

*Should I still worry that the vaccines are less effective against some variants?*
Part of the problem is that we misinterpret what efficacy really means. When someone hears the term "70 percent efficacy," for instance, they might wrongly conclude that it means 30 percent of vaccinated people would get sick. That's not the case. Even if a vaccine loses some ground to a variant, a large portion of people are still protected, and only a fraction of vaccinated people will get infected. Here's why.

To understand efficacy, consider the data from the Pfizer clinical trials. In the unvaccinated group of 21,728, a total of 162 people got infected. But in the vaccinated group of 21,720, only eight people became infected. That's what is referred to as 95 percent efficacy. It doesn't mean that 5 percent of the participants (or 1,086 of them) got sick. It means 95 percent fewer vaccinated people got infected compared to the unvaccinated group.
Now imagine a hypothetical scenario with a vaccine that is 70 percent effective against a more challenging variant. Under the same conditions of the clinical trial, vaccination would still protect 21,672 people in the group, and just 48 vaccinated people - less than one percent - would become infected, compared to 162 in the unvaccinated group. Even though overall efficacy was lower, only a fraction of vaccinated people in this scenario would get infected, most likely with only mild illness.

While far more research is needed to fully understand how variants might dodge some (but not all) vaccine antibodies, public health experts note that an estimate of 50 percent to 70 percent efficacy against a challenging variant would still be considered an adequate level of protection.

"Seventy percent is extremely high," said Dr. Stern. "Basically what this means is that it's even more important to get vaccinated. If you have 95 percent efficacy, you can create some form of herd immunity with less people. With 70 percent efficacy, it's even more important to get vaccinated to protect others."

*Am I going to need a booster shot?*
Vaccine makers already are working on developing booster shots that will target the variants, but it's not clear how soon they might be needed. "In time, you're going to see a recommendation for a booster," said Dr. Peter J. Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. "That booster will elevate everybody's antibodies and increase durability. The booster will probably be configured to target the South African and Brazil variants."

*Given all these unknowns about the variants, shouldn't I just stay home even after I'm vaccinated?*
Even amid the rise of variants, vaccines will significantly lower your risk for infection and will protect you from serious illness and hospitalization. People who are vaccinated can socialize, unmasked, with other vaccinated people. While vaccinated people still need to follow local health guidelines about wearing a mask and gathering in groups to protect the unvaccinated, vaccinated people can travel, get their hair and nails done, or go to work without worrying. And vaccinated grandparents can hug their unvaccinated grandchildren. Because there are still some outstanding questions about the risk of vaccinated people carrying the virus, a vaccinated person is still advised to wear a mask in public to protect the unvaccinated - although those guidelines may be updated soon.

"The vaccines protect you, so go get vaccinated - that's the message," said Dr. Fauci. "If you're around other vaccinated people, you shouldn't worry about it at all. Zero."









Can the Covid Vaccine Protect Me Against Virus Variants?


Vaccines do a good job of protecting us from coronavirus, but fear and confusion about the rise of variants have muddled the message. Here are answers to common questions.




www.nytimes.com


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

cyclelicious said:


> *Can the Covid Vaccine Protect Me Against Virus Variants?*
> 
> _Vaccines do a good job of protecting us from coronavirus, but fear and confusion about the rise of variants have muddled the message. Here are answers to common questions._
> 
> ...


I'm not "currently" concerned with breakthrough infections, at least in North America.....BUT....In India, a double variant has emerged. There are well over a billion people there, and they are being tested at the rate of one per thousand or so. Even at that, they are seeing over 200,000 new infections per day, so obviously the rate is much higher. Each person who gets the virus provides opportunities through "mistakes" (AKA mutations) for the virus to change. When I was in the military, our philosophy was always that, if there were to be a conflict, we always wanted it to be an "away game". A version of that philosophy may need to be employed for this. Once nations get their own infection rates under control, there needs to be a concerted effort to fight this as an "away game", pouring resources into those parts of the world unprepared to control this evolving contagion.


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Explain this


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Lopaka said:


> Explain this
> View attachment 1926445


Based on my partial knowledge of the study I'd say that this looks like the Israeli study, because of the Hebrew sign in the background.
Only seeing a screen shot makes it hard to say, so if you have the study, post it.

As I recall, in that study, they looked at the people who had been vaccinated and yet still came down with COVID - a very small number, BTW. They compared the rates of THIS variant (B.1.351) in those infected with another variant (I don't remember what that is).

In those not vaccinated, this variant was only about 1% of the total. In the vaccinated group it was closer to 9% OF THE TOTAL.

But, the important thing to understand is that infections of either variant were very low in total, in vaccinated people compared to unvaccinated people - the unvaccinated got more of both in total, by a huge margin. The reason the B.1.351 was higher in the vaccinated group was that the vaccine is more effective against the other variant....BUT, it is effective against both!

It's a COMPARATIVE study to see how efficacy varies against infections based on variant, not on overall efficacy. It's not a study that shows that if you are vaccinated, you have a HIGHER probability of acquiring the infection in this variant compared to the unvaccinated. Just that IF you are infected after vaccination, it's more likely to be by the variant the vaccine is LESS effective at preventing.

Does that make sense? I may not have explained it well.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Lopaka said:


> Explain this


Sure.

Read this: Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals

And then this: Reviews of "Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals" · Rapid Reviews COVID-19

Try not to cherry-pick.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

the one ring said:


> Sure.
> 
> Read this: Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals
> 
> ...


The first article has not been peer-reviewed but does seem to follow the same conclusion as the second. I could not find the sample size in either though.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

deuxdiesel said:


> The first article has not been peer-reviewed but does seem to follow the same conclusion as the second. I could not find the sample size in either though.


The second link is to reviews of the article in the first link.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Plz. summarize article and reviews.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

EKram said:


> Plz. summarize article and reviews.


BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine is the Pfizer vaccine. It's the one that was predominantly used in Israel, I think.

If you are vaccinated with it, you will be less likely to get either variant (B.1.1.7 or B.1.351) compared to being unvaccinated.
If you are not vaccinated, or partially vaccinated - i.e., less than 2 weeks after second vaccination - infection rates between variants are unaffected.
More than 2 weeks after the second shot and you have more protection against B.1.1.7 than B.1.351.

The vaccine is more effective against B.1.1.7 than against B.1.351.
The vaccine is effective against both, though.

They broke groups up into unvaccinated, partially vaccinated (less than 2 weeks after second shot) and fully vaccinated (more than 2 weeks after second shot) and looked at results.

They then compared the infection rates among the groups to see how vaccinations affected outcomes of VOCs - "Variants of concern" - in the population. B.1.351 was still largely prevented, but it did break through more than B.1.1.7

That's what I got from the study.
Read it yourself and see if I missed or misinterpreted something.
I didn't read the review.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Thanks. Still pretty sure the side effects of the drugs I see advertised are worse than the variant(s).
BTW. I love the names (nomenclature or whatever scientists call it) these guys are using. 

BNT162b2Mrna. Need those people on the morning shows to say that 10 times real fast-like the old little kid joke from awhile back.


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## IL8APEX (Apr 24, 2017)

I just rec'd my 2nd Dose of the Moderna vaccine on Friday. This is my Whoop score from Saturday morning...










(I don't know what's up with the time stamps, they make no sense.)

Vaccine at 11am Friday. OK at first. By 7pm was a little sluggish. In bed at 9pm. Fitful sleep with fever chills. Fever broke at 2:30am. Felt like I'd been run over by a truck. Was lethargic and foggy for a few hours after finally waking. 3 Ibuprophen with a late breakfast. Felt like my old self by Noon Saturday.

If this is what the symptoms are, I want NOTHING to do with actually contracting this virus!

-Tom


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

IL8APEX said:


> I just rec'd my 2nd Dose of the Moderna vaccine on Friday. This is my Whoop score from Saturday morning...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm with you on that, I want nothing to do with the real thing. I spent 3 days feeling like **** and now on day 4 I'm going for a ride and it will be a fraction of what I would normally ride.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Ripbird said:


> That sucks to hear and why a healthy person like me (46 years old) who hasn't had the flu in 22 years has no business or reason the get the vaccine RIGHT NOW.


It must be great living in this state of ignorance.

You should be thrilled to get the vaccine the day you're eligible. Getting it later or emphasizing not "right now" but suggesting you might want the protection later is beyond stupid.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Zguitar71 said:


> Yeah, I'm with you on that, I want nothing to do with the real thing. I spent 3 days feeling like **** and now on day 4 I'm going for a ride and it will be a fraction of what I would normally ride.


Yep, same here. Just came back from my second vaccine, and the first time really sucked. I'm hoping the second isn't as bad, but even if it is, it's better than being on a vent or have long haulers COVID, or be one of the +3 million dead from this crap.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

twodownzero said:


> You should be thrilled to get the vaccine the day you're eligible. Getting it later or emphasizing not "right now" but suggesting you might want the protection later is beyond stupid.


Ripbird has reasons to delay. Lot of "maybes" to consider we don't know. One of those maybes probably makes a lot of sense-twodown appears to not agree based on his response words.

At least delay is implied. I have talked to quite a few "never vaccinate". I respect that they make that statement. Above my pay grade to say yay or nay on that choice.

And yes. As posted earlier, wife and I J&J vaccinated.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

twodownzero said:


> It must be great living in this state of ignorance.
> 
> You should be thrilled to get the vaccine the day you're eligible. Getting it later or emphasizing not "right now" but suggesting you might want the protection later is beyond stupid.


Actually educating myself before injecting something in MY body that I feel isn't needed due to MY immune system and health, is me using my OWN brain to make MY own decisions based on what I know about MYSELF. Listening and bowing down to people who have zero interest in YOUR self being or health is ignorance as far as I'm concerned. Now l if you feel the need/want to get this Vaccine for many different reasons, I'm not going to lecture you either.

Ya, how dare me take the wait and see approach for something that NO one has all the answers for, nor has been FDA approved, or is covered by ANYBODY'S life insurance policy.

I bet the fact that I've been in close contact and touched everything that my infected co worker touched minutes later back in July and nothing happened to me, must be shocking to you, but get over yourself.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> Actually educating myself before injecting something in MY body that I feel isn't needed due to MY immune system and health, is me using my OWN brain to make MY own decisions based on what I know about MYSELF.


That's a lot of self-consideration. I mostly think about not killing my parents, but that extends to not wanting to kill other people's parents either... or anyone for that matter. ?‍♂


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

davec113 said:


> That's a lot of self-consideration. I mostly think about not killing my parents, but that extends to not wanting to kill other people's parents either... or anyone for that matter. ?‍♂


Another assumer. What makes you think that I'm not being careful or want to kill my own Mom or any other person for that matter?


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

I contracted Covid from an employee in November. I was sick a few days. I felt fatigued a while after. My doctor has absolutely advised against getting the shot. "Under no circumstances", is what he said.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Ripbird said:


> Another assumer. What makes you think that I'm not being careful or want to kill my own Mom or any other person for that matter?


I'm not assuming anything, I read your post and responded.

The greater the % of people that are vaccinated, the fewer will die... it's as simple as that. Therefore, the choice to not get vaccinated is selfish.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Lopaka said:


> I contracted Covid from an employee in November. I was sick a few days. I felt fatigued a while after. My doctor has absolutely advised against getting the shot. "Under no circumstances", is what he said.


A friend of mine with antibodies got pretty sick for a few days, but IDK how much your risk is increased.


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## thegock (Jan 21, 2014)

I rode with a guy tonight who got C19 late last year. His whole family got it, too. He was in bed for seven days. He said it was real bad.


However, he is riding faster than ever and hitting a race next Sunday.


My wife gets her second Pfizer in a week. Can't wait.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

thegock said:


> I rode with a guy tonight who got C19 late last year. His whole family got it, too. He was in bed for seven days. He said it was real bad.
> 
> However, he is riding faster than ever and hitting a race next Sunday.
> 
> My wife gets her second Pfizer in a week. Can't wait.


Had a few friends and family who had relatively mild cases, some with long haulers.

One of my coworkers had it. Ended up on a vent for 30 days and physical therapy for over 6 months.

As someone who has asthma and has a history of pneumonia, this **** scares me. The idea of drowning in my own lungs is not something i want, nor the idea of subjecting anyone i know and care about to a virus that's killed millions.

I also trust the science behind this. The mRNA vaccines have been around since the early 90s, and are used for Zika and the flu.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Universal COVID/Flu/Cold Vaccine (maintain blood level between 60ng/ml to 100ng/ml)
Summer
5,000iu a day along with some sun exposure between 10am - 3pm
Winter
10,000iu a day























Side Effects


----------



## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Vitamin D. Best source is sunlight. That statement will be knocked down by cancer statements.
Read and see.


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

I could have found this level of idiocy on Facebook. I didn’t realize a mountain bike forum would be the bastion covid “truth.”


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Zguitar71 said:


> I could have found this level of idiocy on Facebook. I didn't realize a mountain bike forum would be the bastion covid "truth."


There's definitely a huge level of stupidity here-but it usually shows up in other ways. I wouldn't say this is the bastion of covid truthers though-that's still Facebook. Facebook, Twitter, and Parler are the bastions of bullshit. People usually keep it to wheel size and carbon vs metal here


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Always nice to hear about topics from like minded (MTB) people. Narrower group of people., with acommon interest.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Lopaka said:


> I contracted Covid from an employee in November. I was sick a few days. I felt fatigued a while after. My doctor has absolutely advised against getting the shot. "Under no circumstances", is what he said.


Why would a medical professional offer such advice, unless one had a specific medical contraindication?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Crankout said:


> Why would a medical professional offer such advice, unless one had a specific medical contraindication?


They did the "research".


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

rockcrusher said:


> They did the "research".


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

_I'm fitter than all of you combined_ (fight me)

and covid still almost killed me 1 yr 4 months ago
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
getting my vaccine in a week, then #2 3 weeks later

I'll be wearing my mask everywhere all the time around anyone, probably for the next 5 years *-dont matta us-*

'cuz I passed high school biology and not a selfish in regards to viruses

and vaccinated or not _I have no idea if I am a carrier and a spreade__r_. you just don't know right away

MY mask is more for you and less for me. keeps my breath from spreading very far


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm just going to leave this right here: Facemasks in the COVID-19 era: A health hypothesis


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> I'm just going to leave this right here: Facemasks in the COVID-19 era: A health hypothesis


As the author's next work, I'd suggest something like "Self-Reflections on Dunning-Kruger".


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

davec113 said:


> As the author's next work, I'd suggest something like "Self-Reflections on Dunning-Kruger".


Reading that report I wonder how the workers that have to wear N95 masks all day or surgeons that have to wear surgical masks feel about their limiting cognitive function that they experience from wearing these masks.

Has this been peer reviewed? I see that it was published but I don't see the peer review supporting the hypothesis.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't care about any mask study....I wear one when out and about, _it shows I am trying_.

it works some unknowable degree better than no mask at all, and doesn't restrict my oxygen. again, it is to slow my exhaust down 'so it doesn't reach 20 feet over to you, as fast as it would if I wore no mask'. That is why.

If I am on the rivet yes it blocks uptake a bit....so I'll pull down the mask when no one is around, and back it goes if someone is around. ez up ez down.

only one time in the whole last 365 days did the mask screw me up...was hammering, was getting close to someone (a snowy climb) and it screwed me up because it fogged my snowblind glasses...so had to stop and unfreeze my glasses.

I have a pile of sweet masks which exactly fit me and it can pop it up and pull it down in 1/2 second easy-peasy

your mileage may vary


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> I don't care about any mask study....I wear one when out and about, _it shows I am trying_.
> 
> it works some unknowable degree better than no mask at all, and doesn't restrict my oxygen. again, it is to slow my exhaust down 'so it doesn't reach 20 feet over to you, as fast as it would if I wore no mask'. That is why.
> 
> ...


I do the same. And just to be clear this was not a study nor was it scientific but it was a published hypothesis that cherry picks information and then uses it to sell a point of view. It was not peer reviewed because again it was just a hypothesis that is not able to be tested as it is just a collection of references to other studies and research. It is scientific only in its publishing in a scientific website and will be cited innumerable times as "evidence" by anti maskers.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

"Medical Hypotheses" is a the name of a journal. It's purpose is just to provide a forum for the presentation of hypotheses and the articles accepted probably shouldn't be taken as completed studies.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> "Medical Hypotheses" is a the name of a journal. It's purpose is just to provide a forum for the presentation of hypotheses and the articles accepted probably shouldn't be taken as completed studies.


That is the point I guess. I lends relevance to something that is just a well cited hypothesis but it looks like a scientific research journal and when you figure that as a society we had to tell people to not eat Tide pods you can only guess how many will use it as their "I did my research" as a reason to not mask. If masking didn't work then our standard flu numbers would match other years but the flu is at an all time low, which sure you could say that it is related to people being isolated but then both of these are just hypotheses.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

Here's another one for the militant mask crowd, and yes, it is Stanford published and peer reviewed...

Peer Reviewed Medical Report Says Face Masks Cause More Problems Then They Prevent


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Here's another one for the militant mask crowd, and yes, it is Stanford published and peer reviewed...
> 
> Peer Reviewed Medical Report Says Face Masks Cause More Problems Then They Prevent


from the article:
"Did you hear about the peer-reviewed study done by Stanford University that demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that face masks have absolutely zero chance of preventing the spread of Covid-19? No? It was posted on the the National Center for Biotechnological Information government website. The NCBI is a branch of the National Institute for Health, so one would think such a study would be widely reported by mainstream media and embraced by the "science-loving" folks in Big Tech," The America Conservative Movement reported."

That link is the same link to the article linked above which I did my "research" on and found that it is a non-peer reviewed hypothesis. Not a scientific study nor is it research based. It is strictly a smattering on incidental cases that support a hypothesis. When the author gets funding and does a study to see if masks actually drop O2 levels, impact health, and do not prevent COVID transmission and his methods are duplicated by peers supporting his study, then I would believe it. Until then this is just a hypothesis. With enough selecting from other research you could support a hypothesis of almost anything really and with the NIH publishing things into a hypothesis journal it would all look legitimate to those that don't understand the difference between a publish hypothesis and a peer reviewed research report.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

_Medical Hypotheses_ is a forum for ideas in *medicine* and related *biomedical sciences*. It will publish interesting and important theoretical papers that foster the diversity and debate upon which the scientific process thrives.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Here's another one for the militant mask crowd, and yes, it is Stanford published and peer reviewed...
> 
> Peer Reviewed Medical Report Says Face Masks Cause More Problems Then They Prevent


Media Bias Fact Check for DJHJ Media


> Overall, we rate DJHJ Media extreme right biased and Questionable based on the use of poor sources, promotion of propaganda, and conspiracy theories as well as consistent one-sided sensationalized reporting.


Seeing Is Not Necessarily Believing


> Despite its official-looking source and format, this article appeared in the journal Medical Hypotheses. This journal's purpose (according to the publisher) "is to publish interesting theoretical papers." They go on to say that the journal will "consider radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas provided they are coherently expressed." When you search for Medical Hypotheses on the internet, you'll find that *it is not conventionally peer-reviewed (reviewed and fact-checked by a team of experts in the field to avoid publishing misinformation).* While Medical Hypotheses does have its own review system, it is "in accordance with the aims and scope of the journal, which is to publish radical new ideas" according to the editor-in-chief-meaning that it publishes work that includes plausible conjecture rather than provable fact.
> 
> This may include both incorrect and unsubstantiated claims. In this example, you can find both, including:
> 
> ...


----------



## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

My apologies gang, for posting an article that linked to the previous one. That said, the mask militance just kills me. Wearing a mask to stop Covid (incoming or outgoing) is like putting up a chain link fence to keep sand out of your yard.

I can also understand pretty much anyone over 60 years old getting the vaccine; however, for those under 60 and in good health, you have a significantly greater chance of dying in a car crash than dying from Covid. Not to mention the preventative measures you can take instead of the experimental vaccine. The media and government are lying to us, and the number of folks who accept what they are peddling as truth is just staggering.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> My apologies gang, for posting an article that linked to the previous one. That said, the mask militance just kills me. Wearing a mask to stop Covid (incoming or outgoing) is like putting up a chain link fence to keep sand out of your yard.
> 
> I can also understand pretty much anyone over 60 years old getting the vaccine; however, for those under 60 and in good health, you have a significantly greater chance of dying in a car crash than dying from Covid. Not to mention the preventative measures you can take instead of the experimental vaccine. The media and government are lying to us, and the number of folks who accept what they are peddling as truth is just staggering.


Gatekeeping what people do to keep other people safe is really shameful. Don't try to shame people for trying to protect others. You can chose to not wear your seatbelt but don't spend your time trying to convince me that I shouldn't.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> Gatekeeping what people do to keep other people safe is really shameful. Don't try to shame people for trying to protect others. You can chose to not wear your seatbelt but don't spend your time trying to convince me that I shouldn't.


No shaming going on here. Just stating facts. The shaming happens much more in the other direction with folks saying that if you don't wear a mask or take the vaccine, then you must want to kill old people. That's the epitome of shaming and absolute hogwash.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> No shaming going on here. Just stating facts. The shaming happens much more in the other direction with folks saying that if you don't wear a mask or take the vaccine, then you must want to kill old people. That's the epitome of shaming and absolute hogwash.


No you are totally shaming, you are judging, referring to people as militant and generally saying people are idiots. Not sure what your definition of shaming is but it certainly doesn't meet the criteria I have.

It is so funny how people are all about choice, business shouldn't have to sell to homosexuals if they don't want, doctors shouldn't have to prescribe birth control if it doesn't if it goes against their religious beliefs, affirmative action is a waste of time but when a business says you can't enter without wearing a mask you lose your ****. The hypocrisy is fairly transparent in these stances. You have a right to your beliefs but you also have the right to the repercussions of those beliefs. Frankly saying that you have no chance of dying if you are under 60 and health is a load of baloney. Small chances are still chances and in a large enough population it equals the equivalent of 9/11 levels of death each day. A percentage of those people are healthy and young.

And even if you don't die the post covid symptoms can be daunting, just look at the founder Texas Roadhouse, who killed himself as it was a better option that post covid symptoms. He was healthy and strong and succumbed to insane health issues that made him take his life.

I understand you believe whatever you believe but you also espouse that people are being stupid in their selflessness in wearing a mask where the only impact to you is that you need to wear a paper piece over your mouth and nose when you buy groceries. Seems like a pretty pathetic cross to die upon.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> My apologies gang, for posting an article that linked to the previous one. That said, the mask militance just kills me. Wearing a mask to stop Covid (incoming or outgoing) is like putting up a chain link fence to keep sand out of your yard.
> 
> I can also understand pretty much anyone over 60 years old getting the vaccine; however, for those under 60 and in good health, you have a significantly greater chance of dying in a car crash than dying from Covid. Not to mention the preventative measures you can take instead of the experimental vaccine. The media and government are lying to us, and the number of folks who accept what they are peddling as truth is just staggering.


I am a 56 year-old male in fair shape for my age. I am also an elementary school/middle school teacher who has taught in-person all year to four separate classes of 18-22 students. We have defied all the trends, including the current spike in Michigan positivity rates. My co-workers and I have all remained healthy since September. The only mitigating efforts have been to* require masks to be worn*. I work in an old building with poor ventilation and small classrooms. Social distancing has been less than 4' since the beginning due to space constrains. The only positive COVID cases among our students has been contact-traced to social gatherings outside of school where masks were not worn. We have also had ZERO influenza cases this year. Count me in as a proud "mask militant".


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> No you are totally shaming, you are judging, referring to people as militant and generally saying people are idiots. Not sure what your definition of shaming is but it certainly doesn't meet the criteria I have.
> 
> It is so funny how people are all about choice, business shouldn't have to sell to homosexuals if they don't want, doctors shouldn't have to prescribe birth control if it doesn't if it goes against their religious beliefs, affirmative action is a waste of time but when a business says you can't enter without wearing a mask you lose your ****. The hypocrisy is fairly transparent in these stances. You have a right to your beliefs but you also have the right to the repercussions of those beliefs. Frankly saying that you have no chance of dying if you are under 60 and health is a load of baloney. Small chances are still chances and in a large enough population it equals the equivalent of 9/11 levels of death each day. A percentage of those people are healthy and young.
> 
> ...


Wrong again, everything you stated about me shaming and saying people are idiots are things you have inferred. I stated several facts as well as my opinion, but by no means did I shame anyone or call anyone stupid or an idiot. Seems I have struck a nerve with you though.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Wrong again, everything you stated about me shaming and saying people are idiots are things you have inferred. I stated several facts as well as my opinion, but by no means did I shame anyone or call anyone stupid or an idiot. Seems I have struck a nerve with you though.


ok. You are right, i shouldn't be forcing you to wear a mask either. You are a grown adult and can make your own decisions on whether you want to do so. Hopefully you don't base your decisions on that article shown above and instead use actual science. I am not militant about mask wearing but I know there are many businesses that are. I hope that every person does not have the opportunity to be a transfer vector to loved ones, coworkers, or neighbors. I hope that people get vaccinated and covid becomes just one more thing we vaccinate against and I hope that it occurs fast so more virulent varieties don't appear. I look forward to the day I don't have to wear a mask but I will also accept it as something I do to protect those around me that can't protect themselves as well as I can in hope that when I can't protect myself as well as others they will do so for me.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm fully vaccinated. At this point, the only reason I wear a mask is to avoid "stinkeye".
But, until a majority are vaccinated, I can see why some people get uncomfortable with unmasked individuals because they have no idea as to the vaccination status. 
Hopefully, in a couple of months, enough people will have been vaccinated to make mask wearing unnecessary.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> ok. You are right, i shouldn't be forcing you to wear a mask either. You are a grown adult and can make your own decisions on whether you want to do so. Hopefully you don't base your decisions on that article shown above and instead use actual science. I am not militant about mask wearing but I know there are many businesses that are. I hope that every person does not have the opportunity to be a transfer vector to loved ones, coworkers, or neighbors. I hope that people get vaccinated and covid becomes just one more thing we vaccinate against and I hope that it occurs fast so more virulent varieties don't appear. I look forward to the day I don't have to wear a mask but I will also accept it as something I do to protect those around me that can't protect themselves as well as I can in hopes that when I can't protect myself as well as others they will do so for me.


I also never said that I am refusing to wear a mask in places that require them. I absolutely respect the decisions of private business owners who want me to wear a mask on their property. Also took a trip by plane a few weeks ago and wore a mask the entire time as well. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. Did I refuse to comply or cause a seen? Absolutely not.

Then there's Utah, where their mask mandate was lifted last week. I was there this past weekend and raced the Tour of St. George with 800 of my closest friends. No masks. It was glorious. And oh yeah, one of my best friends, who is 65 and just got over Covid, raced the Century with me and showed Covid who is boss! These are the kinds of stories that should be shared far and wide to balance out the fear mongering.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> No shaming going on here. Just stating facts. The shaming happens much more in the other direction with folks saying that if you don't wear a mask or take the vaccine, then you must want to kill old people. That's the epitome of shaming and absolute hogwash.


No truer than me being call stupid, self absorbed and I must want to kill others, all because I don't want to be experimented on. Yep, SOME of these MTBR members are extremely tolerant and friendly to otherswho have a different viewpoint. The funny thing is, I ALWAYS wear my mask as required and I'm careful about who I'm around. In the first 6-8 months, I would rarely visit my 74 year old Mom and I since I've only hugged her a couple times and for the most part as careful as I can be around her. I guess these Pro "you have to get the vaccine" shamers have learned the epitome of shaming from the current/ true masters we now have running this Country.

Now for real World numbers/ REAL science at the 400+ bed Hospital I work at in Orange County, Ca, we've averaged about 5 Covid+ patients over the past 2 months and less than 5 for several weeks now. We had the highest ever on Jan.9 at 166 Covid +.


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## Ripbird (Jun 25, 2020)

MSU Alum said:


> I'm fully vaccinated. At this point, the only reason I wear a mask is to avoid "stinkeye".
> But, until a majority are vaccinated, I can see why some people get uncomfortable with unmasked individuals because they have no idea as to the vaccination status.
> Hopefully, in a couple of months, enough people will have been vaccinated to make mask wearing unnecessary.


Ya, I have an older friend I met MTB who is 73, vaccinated and he was all but ran out of Autozone in California today for not wearing his mask correctly.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask when social distancing is impossible, including on the trail. It feels more like a courtesy, something easy I can do out of respect for your health, like not coughing into your face, or taking a sh!t on your lawn.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask when social distancing is impossible, including on the trail. It feels more like a courtesy, something easy I can do out of respect for your health, like not coughing into your face, or taking a sh!t on your lawn.


Are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> Are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life?


People in Japan do and their incidences of COVID and seasonal flu are much much lower than ours. Imagine how much less of burden it would be on our medical system if people weren't getting sick as much because they wore a piece of cloth over their faces when they took the bus or subway or were in a large crowded place.

I am not saying it is right but it does work and it can benefit people. I am sure in more congested cities you will see people wearing mask long after COVID is just another vaccine you take each season, unless of course one of the current strains sends us all 28days later.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> People in Japan do and their incidences of COVID and seasonal flu are much much lower than ours. Imagine how much less of burden it would be on our medical system if people weren't getting sick as much because they wore a piece of cloth over their faces when they took the bus or subway or were in a large crowded place.
> 
> I am not saying it is right but it does work and it can benefit people. I am sure in more congested cities you will see people wearing mask long after COVID is just another vaccine you take each season, unless of course one of the current strains sends us all 28days later.


Okay. Are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life?
You can. I'm just curious.
I'm not. There are just too many things that we can be coerced into doing, "for the common good".
I'm already looking forward to sh!tting in my neighbor's yard, too.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Wrong again, everything you stated about me shaming and saying people are idiots are things you have inferred. I stated several facts as well as my opinion, but by no means did I shame anyone or call anyone stupid or an idiot. Seems I have struck a nerve with you though.


no you are wrong.

so glad I live in one of the highest educated states so there are a lot less of YOUZE around to deal with, sheesh.

and stop your 'militant' BS.

I'm a scientist, and hang out with folks who....happen to work on sars viruses for a living. I don't work with biology... but I know a metric f-ton about what the real facts are. 'cuz i hang out and jam with some of the experts who do. mask use is far better than no use at all. ignorance is making it difficult to resolve issues.

*Oh and today, worldwide, the highest incidences of covid cases since it began. ignorance, baby, ignorance.*


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

MSU Alum said:


> Okay. Are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life?
> You can. I'm just curious.
> I'm not. There are just too many things that we can be coerced into doing, "for the common good".
> I'm already looking forward to sh!tting in my neighbor's yard, too.


I mean if it helps my health or those around me why wouldn't I?


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

127.0.0.1 said:


> no you are wrong.
> 
> so glad I live in one of the highest educated states so there are a lot less of YOUZE around to deal with, sheesh.
> 
> ...


Someone forgot to flush the toilet.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

at any rate this guy I saw on my ride tonight doesn't give a rats arse about any of this whatsoever

all he cares about is grub and attacking canadian geese


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ya know, if we all pulled together as a team in March 2020, we wouldn't be talking much about it now. Just about a vaccine we'd keep stashed away in case it came back again after we massively squashed it in three months. 

human behavior won't allow it though


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

rockcrusher said:


> People in Japan do and their incidences of COVID and seasonal flu are much much lower than ours.


Has nothing to do with masks or behavior. You need a electron microscope to see the virus, cloth/surgical masks do not stop the virus. The US population is fat, metabolically unhealthy, Vitamin-D deficient (from obesity) and were half dead before the virus hit.

New York deaths per million = 2,672
Japan deaths per million = 77
New York 34x higher death rate than Japan

Japan 3.5% obesity rate








Japan Has Cut Obesity to 3.5% in a Controversial Way That Wouldn't Fly in America


In the U.S., obesity is a high-profile issue staked out by people like Michelle Obama and Jamie Oliver. But how do other countries address it, especially wealthy countries, where this problem is most rampant? Dubai pays people to lose weight. New…




www.mic.com





US 42.4%








88% of US metabolically unhealthy








Only 12 percent of American adults are metabolically healthy, study finds: Trends help sound alarm for efforts to lower associated risk of types 2 diabetes, heart disease and other complications


The prevalence of metabolic health in American adults is 'alarmingly low,' even among people who are normal weight, according to a new study. Only one in eight Americans is achieving optimal metabolic health. This carries serious implications for public health since poor metabolic health leaves...



www.sciencedaily.com













CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese


An overwhelming majority of people who have been hospitalized, needed a ventilator or died from Covid-19 have been overweight or obese, the CDC said.




www.cnbc.com


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

rockcrusher said:


> I mean if it helps my health or those around me why wouldn't I?


Will you wear a mask for the rest of your life? It's a yes or no question.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> no you are wrong.
> 
> so glad I live in one of the highest educated states so there are a lot less of YOUZE around to deal with, sheesh.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on being a scientist. Hard to believe I was called judgmental earlier in this thread. Very nice implication that I am uneducated. Quite the opposite. And ignorant? Nope. When you seek the facts for yourself instead of buying into the party line narrative as well as a bunch of contrived numbers, that's the opposite of ignorance.

I will refrain from name calling, but I'm sure glad I "hand out and jam with" red blooded patriotic Americans who think for themselves instead of scientists like you. Here's another link for you sir...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383032541091889152


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Might as well plot population density vs COVID incidence. Because that’s what that graph is.

If I lived in Wyoming and literally never interacted with anyone, yeah, I’d have a lower chance of catching COVID than a guy who lives in NJ and works in NY.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

What about the mandates and protocols between South and North Dakota though? They're relatively similar in population density. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

LMAO. Garbage analysis from an agenda-driven twitter nobody. Some red states should be blue and vice-versa. Multiple other variables not considered. "No correlation" and no causation either. Definition of the x axis? Rubbish.

Try this one (peer-reviewed): Mask adherence and rate of COVID-19 across the United States


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

can't believe I am posting again.

*virus particles do not float around by themselves*, they are attached to water droplets, which are thousands of times
larger than the virus particle

*masks slow down the velocity and therefore the spread of the air when you speak and breathe, cough or sneeze*

that is all it needs to do, to have a significant impact on the spread. slow down the blast from your face holes

and no one cares how healthy you think you are, you can still have the virus and spread it without any symptoms whatsoever. *that's the whole reason this is a damn pandemic*, it sneaks into populations and spreads easier than anything we've dealt with before and no one knows until days later. it would be better if it knocked everyone flat on day one...then we'd have every sick person just stay home and it would not spread.

to resolve corona virus issues, we need* thinking *and *unselfish* people to follow the science, yet here we are dealing with...again...ignorance.


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

I cannot remember the last time someone not wearing a mask coughed or sneezed on me in/outdoors [Pre mask mandates]. 
I can remember people not covering up while coughing or sneezing indoors/outdoors. I.e. expelling lingering airborne particles maybe on to a surface. {pre mask mandates] 
What is mixed with the airborne particle and how long do they last? That's unending debate.

So what are mask standards? Wide range of guesswork from bandannas to medical quality masks. 
And double and triple masking? Is that really that helpful? How about two bandannas?

My bottom line. Use long accepted personal hygiene practices. I feel that this is not quantifiable but if you wear a mask that is a statement of good personal hygiene. So you wear a mask but do you have clean hands?


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## Zguitar71 (Nov 8, 2020)

Zguitar71 said:


> I could have found this level of idiocy on Facebook. I didn't realize a mountain bike forum would be the bastion covid "truth."


Quoting myself because it is still applicable.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Might as well plot population density vs COVID incidence. Because that's what that graph is.
> 
> If I lived in Wyoming and literally never interacted with anyone, yeah, I'd have a lower chance of catching COVID than a guy who lives in NJ and works in NY.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh really? Then please explain AZ, NM, and NV with their mask mandates and poor Covid numbers.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Oh really? Then please explain AZ, NM, and NV with their mask mandates and poor Covid numbers.


that's easy, mask mandate has little effect if the population is full of idiots breaking all sorts of rules their entire life and consider covid a scam or scheme, don't take it seriously, and just ignore common sense and decency for their neighbors. DUH

mask mandates work better when everyone or a significant majority step up and do the right thing, 24x7. the right thing is definitely not happening for many groups of people.

no one should need to be told or mandated 'wear a mask'...they just need to know holy crap a new sars variant, sars2...I'll do whatever it takes....

that is just not happening except for a few smart people who get it right as soon as the news breaks.

others whine and complain no I ain't gonna do it you can't make me.....so then we need mandates....and people still whine and complain oh they be taking my rights away...blahlahblah

truly sickening how selfish sooooooooooooo many people are. mind blowing


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Second Moderna shot this morning, the wife got hers yesterday. She says she is feeling exhausted and has a headache. I'm taking tomorrow regardless, but hoping I feel good.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

127.0.0.1 said:


> that's easy, mask mandate has little effect if the population is full of idiots breaking all sorts of rules their entire life and consider covid a scam or scheme, don't take it seriously, and just ignore common sense and decency for their neighbors. DUH


We live in a country full of idiots. Not likely to have heard immunity for that reason (anti-vaxx): Is herd immunity to COVID-19 possible? Experts increasingly say no.

What amazes me is these are the same people who feel COVID-19 is the equivalent of a flu, and hate wearing masks. But they're unwilling to do what they can to move out of a pandemic.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

On a lighter note, Ted Nugent came down with the COVIDS! Made my day when I saw that...


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)




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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Incredible to think there's a debate about filtering air, lol. The idiocy shown by the anti-maskers is staggering. 

There have been MANY studies done on the subject. There is also a correlation between viral load and how sick you get, so partially filtering the air is still valuable and may make the difference between getting sick and not, or sever sickness vs lesser severity. Maybe organ damage vs not... 

Also, the lack of understanding about how increasing vaccination rates means fewer deaths is simply amazing. 

I hope these idiots realize it never had to be like this. YOU are the reason 1/2 million Americans died, while we would have always had some fatalities, we have 10x as many as we could have had if people would have made the earlier lockdowns effective. We could have been like New Zealand. But no, you gotta have your "freedumb" to infect others. **** You.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> that's easy, mask mandate has little effect if the population is full of idiots breaking all sorts of rules their entire life and consider covid a scam or scheme, don't take it seriously, and just ignore common sense and decency for their neighbors. DUH
> 
> mask mandates work better when everyone or a significant majority step up and do the right thing, 24x7. the right thing is definitely not happening for many groups of people.
> 
> ...


Wow. This post is just dripping with assumptions and judgment. I live in NM, where we have had some of the most stringent mandates in the nation but quite bad Covid numbers, if you believe them. The level of compliance with the mandates is extremely high, so high that I rarely see people without masks when I leave the house. Yet Mr. Scientist here assumes that the population here must be full of idiots.

To be fully bought in to mask wearing and vaccines, you have to believe what the government and "scientists" are telling us, even though what they say changes from one week to the next. Bottom line for me: you want to wear a mask, wear one. You want to get the experimental shots, go ahead. Just don't tell me what I have to do. All that said, I am in full compliance when the situation calls for it.


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## ABQ Clydesdale (Dec 30, 2010)

Crankout said:


> On a lighter note, Ted Nugent came down with the COVIDS! Made my day when I saw that...


Very typical of those trying to control others, expressing happiness at the misfortune of someone with whom you disagree. Do you wish death upon him? Will it also make your day when he (most likely) fully recovers?


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

If y'all want to debate about masks, go start a mask thread. 

Now that the vaccine is available to all 16 and up, are there any young ones here that got the vaccine yet? Anybody have teenage children that have got the vaccine? 

Was anyone here scheduled for the J&J but had to change plans due to the 'pause'?


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

127.0.0.1 said:


> can't believe I am posting again.
> 
> *virus particles do not float around by themselves*, they are attached to water droplets, which are thousands of times
> larger than the virus particle
> ...


Thanks for posting this.
I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Very typical of those trying to control others, expressing happiness at the misfortune of someone with whom you disagree. Do you wish death upon him? Will it also make your day when he (most likely) fully recovers?


Disagree is an understatement. He's a despicable oaf. Folks who agree with his controversial nonsense are filled with nothing but hatred, so yeah, he can go chew a dong as far as I care!!

But really...COVID is over-rated and not serious, so no harm done.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ABQ Clydesdale said:


> Wow. This post is just dripping with assumptions and judgment. I live in NM, where we have had some of the most stringent mandates in the nation but quite bad Covid numbers, if you believe them.  The level of compliance with the mandates is extremely high, so high that I rarely see people without masks when I leave the house. Yet Mr. Scientist here assumes that the population here must be full of idiots.
> 
> To be fully bought in to mask wearing and vaccines, you have to believe what the government and "scientists" are telling us, even though what they say changes from one week to the next. Bottom line for me: you want to wear a mask, wear one. You want to get the experimental shots, go ahead. Just don't tell me what I have to do. All that said, I am in full compliance when the situation calls for it.


if you are one example of the population there, then I'm onto something....

I'm right, my pals who work at Abbott, who fund and work at UCSF, who work in the same Wuhan lab that worked on SARS1 and SARS2 (covid is 2) are all right too. it's a **** situation worsened by failed leadership decisions.

(look up the relationship between Abbott and UCSF and SARS research if you want to figure out how they are all related)

oh here I'll hold your hand









UCSF and Abbott launch viral discovery center at Mission Bay


The University of California, San Francisco, has partnered with Abbott, a global health care company, to launch a first-of-its kind, non-profit viral diagnostics center near the UCSF Mission Bay campus to help identify unknown viruses from around the world.




www.ucsf.edu









__





This Date in UCSF History: Solving SARS


Originally published in Synapse on April 17, 2003. An international team of investigators, including UCSF’s Joseph DeRisi and researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, have identified a novel coronavirus as the probable cause of SARS, or severe acute respiratory...




synapse.ucsf.edu





yeah a few peeps who do this work, are hammerheads and ride buds, and casual acquaintances


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