# What is the Women's Lounge?



## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Recently on another thread some folks have stated that they have become reluctant to post, or that this forum has become less supportive than it used to be. This troubles me as a moderator because the intent of this forum was to be a special place where women can ask questions and post, and NOT feel intimidated. (we have the rest of the internet for that).

Please feel free to email me or post your opinion on this. This community should be what we, as women, want and expect it to be. Also, any suggestions for improvements would be welcome. Or, finally, if you think this forum is just fine the way it is, let us know as well.

An idea that has come up about a zillion times is a "etiquette" thread for guys on this forum. Most recently the powers that be have expressed making such a FAQ and making a sticky out of it. If you have input on this please post that as well.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Well, maybe as a guy I should read a FAQ as to what to post... but I really like this forum. Well, some post are clearly for women which I skip, but I feel that women just do things different than us, and I feel this is intresting and complement me as a person. I don't want to intrude on clearly women-only threads, but some others are pretty cool and I find there are a lot of nice people here.

I think that any forum (regardless of what was the original intentions on the forum, bikes, tvs, music, etc.) is going to get some trolls and, if a post is for women, some men that thinks that all women are just intrested in them. But I'm finding it that those guys just stick for a short time and leave.

Congrats on your work and I think this is a good forum


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## Bikergal (Oct 10, 2005)

Impy said:


> Recently on another thread some folks have stated that they have become reluctant to post, or that this forum has become less supportive than it used to be. This troubles me as a moderator because the intent of this forum was to be a special place where women can ask questions and post, and NOT feel intimidated. (we have the rest of the internet for that).
> 
> Please feel free to email me or post your opinion on this. This community should be what we, as women, want and expect it to be. Also, any suggestions for improvements would be welcome. Or, finally, if you think this forum is just fine the way it is, let us know as well.
> 
> An idea that has come up about a zillion times is a "etiquette" thread for guys on this forum. Most recently the powers that be have expressed making such a FAQ and making a sticky out of it. If you have input on this please post that as well.


Well I'll be the first to say that I'm not shy at all and have no problems jumping in with the fellows. But as a women I think this lounge is fine. I haven't seen anyone be less then supportive, but I'm also new. 
I am also another member of another bike forum and the womens lounge is blocked from the fellows. This enables the less then expressive girls unlike myself open up more so. Its worked pretty well since I have been a member there. I think it helps girls take more about stuff that they think they might get slammed for elsewhere. 
Just my two cents, but I just want to add that I have no complaints and I'm happy with the way things are.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

A sticky is definitely a good idea, as a reminder to guys that it's not a place to troll for dates. 

There was a post about how there's too much menstrual-related talk in here. I don't find that to be the case. It's a bona fide concern for female bikers and an additional thing to deal with during races and long rides. Guys can boast about their own toilet habits in excrutiatingly graphic detail, who cares if they're too freaked out to read about PMS or pregnancy stuff or what have you.

I have no complaints about the WL. It's very supportive while still being a source of honest feedback and lively arguments.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Bikergal said:


> I am also another member of another bike forum and the womens lounge is blocked from the fellows. This enables the less then expressive girls unlike myself open up more so. Its worked pretty well since I have been a member there. I think it helps girls take more about stuff that they think they might get slammed for elsewhere.


This has come up as an option here as well. Personally I like the fact that guys can read and give input. Of course, every so often some guy "doesn't get it" and oversteps that boundary (and usually gets banned after multiple complaints) but that is the rare execption rather than the rule.


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## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

I don't think the guys here are intimidating at all. They may not all be super tactful, but that works for both sexes! I'm not sure it'd be entirely beneficial to have it women's only, since there are so many good opinions and posts by the men that read/post here also.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Christine said:


> There was a post about how there's too much menstrual-related talk in here. I don't find that to be the case. It's a bona fide concern for female bikers and an additional thing to deal with during races and long rides.


Maybe that was in reference to the earlier days of the forum, when if a guy posted inappropriately or tried to troll for dates, then often the response would be a picture of some tampax (the joke being that kind of talk tends to drive guys away).

Heh, still kind of funny in a immature way.


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## VA2SLOride (Feb 17, 2005)

rzozaya1969 said:


> Well, maybe as a guy I should read a FAQ as to what to post... but I really like this forum. Well, some post are clearly for women which I skip, but I feel that women just do things different than us, and I feel this is intresting and complement me as a person. I don't want to intrude on clearly women-only threads, but some others are pretty cool and I find there are a lot of nice people here.
> 
> I think that any forum (regardless of what was the original intentions on the forum, bikes, tvs, music, etc.) is going to get some trolls and, if a post is for women, some men that thinks that all women are just intrested in them. But I'm finding it that those guys just stick for a short time and leave.
> 
> Congrats on your work and I think this is a good forum


I both concur and agree with this.  My sister got me into riding, so I was hip to the female perspective from the beginning. It's kind of refreshing in a lot of cases. You all talk smack COMPLETELY different than guys.

On a side note, I was grocery shopping last night, saw some devil's food, and thought to myself..."dude...I've seen that avatar someplace..."


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Should people feel like they are not allowed to post because they don't agree with what everyone else said in a thread? I think not. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and move on.

And in the thread in question, the original poster came in and *asked for feedback * on her product. Negative feedback is still valid, and important. She can certainly choose to ignore the negative feedback and assume that those who don't like the idea of the product are in the minority, and maybe that's the right business decision.

Anyway - I have no problems with the Women's Lounge, just the way it is.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

VA2SLOride said:


> On a side note, I was grocery shopping last night, saw some devil's food, and thought to myself..."dude...I've seen that avatar someplace..."


I am suddenly so hungry.


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## oldbroad (Mar 19, 2004)

I find this forum to be interesting & informative and have no complaints. There is the occasional caustic comment, but nothing like on other forums. 

As far as inappropriate post from guys, well, the women here put them back in their place right quick! 

Interesting though that the first couple of responses to the question were from guys.


Oh, and the tampex pics are funny.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

Impy said:


> Or, finally, if you think this forum is just fine the way it is, let us know as well.


I think the forum is fine the way it is. I like hanging here because I find the women to be wonderfully intelligent and provide great input--and I dig the wicked sense of humour displayed here on a regular basis.

I also prefer the WL to my old hang out Passion because it is smaller. It's the equivalent of a small village rather than the booming metropolis that Passion has become (I have been on mtbr since 97 when Passion used to be a small village). It's much easier to follow the threads here on a daily basis and get to know a smaller number of posters.

As for men, I'm happy to keep it open. Even the idiots provide amusement if nothing else.
Mary Ann


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Mary Ann said:


> I think the forum is fine the way it is. I like hanging here because I find the women to be wonderfully intelligent and provide great input--and I dig the wicked sense of humour displayed here on a regular basis.
> 
> I also prefer the WL to my old hang out Passion because it is smaller. It's the equivalent of a small village rather than the booming metropolis that Passion has become (I have been on mtbr since 97 when Passion used to be a small village). It's much easier to follow the threads here on a daily basis and get to know a smaller number of posters.
> 
> ...


Ditto. I don't have time to read through all the posts in the main forums, so I search through the DH or part or bike specific ones if I have some question in mind... but I like the wit in here, so it's where I check the most!


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

Mary Ann said:


> I think the forum is fine the way it is. I like hanging here because I find the women to be wonderfully intelligent and provide great input--and I dig the wicked sense of humour displayed here on a regular basis.
> 
> I also prefer the WL to my old hang out Passion because it is smaller. It's the equivalent of a small village rather than the booming metropolis that Passion has become (I have been on mtbr since 97 when Passion used to be a small village). It's much easier to follow the threads here on a daily basis and get to know a smaller number of posters.
> 
> ...


I don't think there are any changes required here. I agree with Mary Ann that I hang out here because I like the "small village" feel. I don't find the tone to be too antagonistic, although I did raise my eyebrows when reading the thread in question because there seemed to be a vehemence there typically reserved for men trying to pick up women in the WL. But, I don't think there was anything objectionable.


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

Impy said:


> Recently on another thread some folks have stated that they have become reluctant to post, or that this forum has become less supportive than it used to be. This troubles me as a moderator because the intent of this forum was to be a special place where women can ask questions and post, and NOT feel intimidated. (we have the rest of the internet for that).
> 
> Please feel free to email me or post your opinion on this. This community should be what we, as women, want and expect it to be. Also, any suggestions for improvements would be welcome. Or, finally, if you think this forum is just fine the way it is, let us know as well.
> 
> An idea that has come up about a zillion times is a "etiquette" thread for guys on this forum. Most recently the powers that be have expressed making such a FAQ and making a sticky out of it. If you have input on this please post that as well.


How can anything thats written and posted to a mountain bike forum be intimidating? Slippery roots, 300 foot cliffs, and my boss on a Monday morning before her coffee are all intimidating. But words on my monitor?

Sabine


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## Hello Kitty (Sep 3, 2004)

Impy said:


> Recently on another thread some folks have stated that they have become reluctant to post, or that this forum has become less supportive than it used to be. This troubles me as a moderator because the intent of this forum was to be a special place where women can ask questions and post, and NOT feel intimidated. (we have the rest of the internet for that).


As I stated earlier, I was under the impression that WL was a place for women who mountain bike to share their thoughts, ideas, and opinions. I also have lived pretty successfully under the impression that women _do not _ need special handling, and therefore I never suspected this forum was designed to provide some kind of "safe zone" for our apparently very fair sex.

And just what is support? Personally, I've always felt held back by those who coddled, and very grateful to those who pushed. That perspective is oddly rare in female circles, and IMO, that fact exists to our detriment.

So if apologies for my overall abrasiveness are necessary, I extend them; but am honestly more sorry about the fact that some of my sisters prefer their interactions separately packaged, in pink shrink wrap, and honestly believe they need them that way.

Ride hard, and ride well, chickas!

And always remember, intimidation is for suckers. Never, ever relegate yourself to it.

Later!

~HK


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## archer (May 20, 2004)

Comments from yet another one of the guys,
I stayed out of the Women's Lounge because it is the Women's Lounge during my lurking on MTB before I joined.

My first visit here was after I joined and someone on Passion or General Discussion posted a link to one of the guys trolling for date threads. The offending troll was Thumper and he was getting hammered. LMAO I returned to my habitual boards.

My recent visits are all *rt*'s fault. I noticed one of her well written race reports was noted as a X-post to the women's lounge and wondered if she had included more detail or a different slant on things here so I looked and she had written a slightly different report. At that time I noticed some other threads with information that I though might be helpful to my riding AND in the process came across some of Catzillia's priceless remarks.

I now lurk looking for tidbits that might be helpful to me or waiting for the next Catzilla zinger to brighten my day. Since I noticed a variety of comments posted from the guys I chip in when I think I might have a helpful remark or where guy POV is specifically requested. I do like the fact that I can lurk and that guys can dash in and leave a question soliciting help for a woman rider he knows but who does not frequent the mtb boards.

If I'm wrong and I'm butting in where I'm not welcome let me know. I don't want to be a pita or otherwise disrupt a potentially great forum. I hope I haven't crossed "etiquette".

I think all the guy's input on this thread should be referance only. As I said at the start it IS the Women's Lounge so what you ladies have to say should by far outweigh any of our comments on this subject. I almost didn't reply because of that but there was already guy content.


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## pedaling pyrate (Nov 30, 2004)

*Please don't...*

ban the guys.

This forum has been a huge resourse for me figuring out my female riding friends without doing something stupid. I lean towards being a "fix" it kind of guy....aka, "having a problem...let me tell/show you the solution" In the context of riding only about 1% of the ladies I know want this...and you ladies have helped me figure that out without all the embarrassment or hurt feelings. In the end I think we ride more because we have figured out our boundries and where we can help each other.

Thanks so much. I know some of the time we do and say the stupidest of things but please don't punish the many for the stupidity of the few!


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*The very best of MTBR*

Personally, I think this is a wonderful forum. I've received a lot of help and encouragement from the women in this forum. I think the women here are fun-loving and smart. Discussions are interesting and entertaining, and often a useful resource for information.
Impy, I think you do a terrific job. I see you as a very fair-minded moderator, but you play a wicked "toss the troll" when necessary. 
I've found that generally the men who visit are respectful. 
Of course there are exceptions - it's a lot like life in that respect. So, we roll with it.

I think an FAQ sticky is a great idea. 
How 'bout we mention something like "This not a relationship forum. Please do not ask us advice about your girlfriend unless it is bike related, because, although we will give you seemingly sound advice, we are mocking you behind you're back - in a big way." 
But more cheery and less sarcastic.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Hello Kitty said:


> As I stated earlier, I was under the impression that WL was a place for women who mountain bike to share their thoughts, ideas, and opinions. I also have lived pretty successfully under the impression that women _do not _ need special handling, and therefore I never suspected this forum was designed to provide some kind of "safe zone" for our apparently very fair sex.


I think that women are far more likely to post when the perceived audience is sympathetic to their concerns, be it equipment concerns (kallisti's frustration at non-women sized armor and tools) or the recent post on whether a women's specific tool kit would fly.

Note I don't say nor do I expect that everyone should agree. But, there is a reason why those questions are asked in here and not in the General Discussion Forum. I would propose it is because there are more women here and thus more interest in those topics. My concern as moderator is whether or not people feel that this is not a good place to discuss these kinds of topics.

I am glad that the feedback is generally positive. It was a question that was on my mind.

Off the record, I don't think most women in general need special treatment. I'd never have gotten where I have in life if I needed to be coddled or protected. This doesn't preclude me from recognizing that there are others out there who have been raised differently (shy or helpless or not to speak out or whatever). I can smirk and say how pathetic they are, or I can encourage them, whether it is to post in a dumb internet forum, to take up mountain biking in a women's group, or to even encourage a young woman that she can be a scientist or a doctor.

Anyway, enough crapola. I have way too much time on my hands today. Must go ride.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I'd be more interested in banning trolls than banning guys. The non-trolling males who do contribute here have valuable and interesting things to contribute. I think super secret/passworded protection is just silly. They tried that on mudhunnies for a while. The trolling males are the responsibilty of the moderators. If a forum is so ill-maintained, or if the forum attitude as a whole allows the kind of behavior that makes people WANT a protected zone, then I'm not so sure I want to be part of that . 

As for the trolls, well, they get what they deserve whether it's banning, being recycled or just used for entertainment purposes by the rest of us.I do think trolling here either for responses and reactions, or dates, is really inappropriate. Remember girls, we OWN this place  and they are on our turf. I see nothing wrong with discussing female issues here - if you think it's inappropriate don't participate.

I'd like to think we can all share different points of view, and hopefully be pretty respectful about it most of the time. A little spice and tanginess is good, however, comments designed to deliberately hurt are not. The partner of conflict free is blandness.

formica


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

*Ditching the lame posts would be nice...*

By lame, I mean those ones that we all know are trolls for attention. Or better yet, could all those posts looking for dates/negative attention just get moved over to the downhill board? I am sure that those guys would enjoy them, and there is no reason the search for a female companion couldn't be made in a more public arena. ;-)

Chuky (is relishing the idea of Kawboy hearing what the DH board thinks of his girl-on-girl fantasies)


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

I say leave well enough alone. WL is as close to perfect as any forum can be and still honestly represent what the riding community is like. I like the fact that husbands and boyfriends can post in here with advice and get some in return. It's the lucky girls out there who are starting to go out on rides and want good info. before they hit the trails that are the real beneficiaries. I love the suggestions I've received and frankly thought my questions were too silly to ask the "boys". The small village thing is dead on. "Safety in small numbers and comfort in knowing to whom you are communicating".

Fiona


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## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

*Another guy pipes in*

I appreciate this window into women's conversation, and I think it goes a long way to educating men and women about the way different types of people work out their issues.

As far as the trolls, I guess it can be pretty offensive to women who don't see it as simply pathetic, but I kinda like the idea of a "dating" board: Somewhere for trolls to post their dirty laundry, brag and pose, etc, but it would also provide the rest of us with a sort of inter-gender humor board, not unlike inter-generational FR/DH board.

Imagine the pictures!


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## Fiona (Aug 21, 2005)

Lutarious said:


> As far as the trolls, I guess it can be pretty offensive to women who don't see it as simply pathetic, but I kinda like the idea of a "dating" board: Somewhere for trolls to post their dirty laundry, brag and pose, etc, but it would also provide the rest of us with a sort of inter-gender humor board, not unlike inter-generational FR/DH board.
> 
> Imagine the pictures!


Now, that's a cool idea. We could all use a great laugh and they NEED a cage (I mean place) to post. You could call it the Braggers Bar or maybe Sad but True Tales.

Fiona


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Special Treatment*

Clearly some of our favorite contributors are crusty hard-nosed mtb gals without an ounce of quit in them. At the same time there are women who just fade with the faintest aroma of opposition. Some gals could give a rats ass and other seem to need a bit more support. 
All-Girls Colleges are still held up for the special atmosphere, as many believe, which makes some very special things happen thought not possible with men around. Yet, excusively male colleges are pretty much against the law.
Women in our sport are a most precious element; ask anyone. We beg to get girls to ride and are pressed to create circumstances men might consider special just to get them to try. I guess it's a conundrum.
For what it's worth I think we all do a pretty good job around here, idiots aside.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

While I was pet-sitting for my sister, I ran into a woman on the elevator while taking my bike downstairs. She immediately started to talk about biking, how her daughter tried to join a competitive team while in high school but didn't like the atmosphere while traveling- apparently, teenage girls can experience some unpleasant harassment while on the road. She didn't go into detail, but I gave her a copy of our newsletter and told her we'd welcome her comments.

Then I remembered how, in college, I wanted to join a biking club. After the orientation meeting, I went up to the instructor and asked if I would be okay on a mountain bike. He replied, "It all depends on what you got here," and slapped me playfully on the butt. 

I decided my bike probably couldn't keep up with the roadie machines anyway, and joined the Women's Rugby Club instead.

In high school, though, I took some great bike trips on a borrowed road bike with the school club, no problem. But they didn't involve being away for days at a time.

Incidents like this are one thing when you're into adulthood, but as a young woman just getting started with a sport, they can be a deterrent. So I think it can help to have a place just for women sometimes.


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## Jewell of D(enial) (Apr 25, 2005)

*This is usually the first place I go...*

Even though I don't have much time to post up on mtbr, when I do have a few minutes to "lurk" and "hang out" I always go here first.

I think the main reason is that I'm so thrilled to know about the existence of "regular" women who actually ride and love it as much as I do. I rarely meet women in my everyday life who ride for a passion as I do, or as frequently, therefore as a result I hardly ever have regular contact with "them." This forum lets me know that "there're" out there like me, working, having families, playing, going to school, riding, racing...

I'll have to admit that I don't always read the threads carefully, and just skip the lame ones, but this is my homebase, even as brief as it is. I think its a great forum and I like that guys are allowed to post. It seems to me that they're not taking over, and I like to hear what they have to say in regards to the female mtbr issues.

I've seen really positive feedback for the most part, which is awesome, but I'll agree with HK that we (I) don't need only nice, neat comments, but constructive criticism now and again. Anyway, bedtime...

-Jewell

p.s. I forget your avitar, but the girl who posted about DH girls in San Diego, did you ever get my PM???


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*So, then, we are talking*



Christine said:


> While I was pet-sitting for my sister, I ran into a woman on the elevator while taking my bike downstairs. She immediately started to talk about biking, how her daughter tried to join a competitive team while in high school but didn't like the atmosphere while traveling- apparently, teenage girls can experience some unpleasant harassment while on the road. She didn't go into detail, but I gave her a copy of our newsletter and told her we'd welcome her comments.
> 
> Then I remembered how, in college, I wanted to join a biking club. After the orientation meeting, I went up to the instructor and asked if I would be okay on a mountain bike. He replied, "It all depends on what you got here," and slapped me playfully on the butt.
> 
> ...


about vulnerabilities. Are we talking about exposing oneself to powers which can overcome us?
I have a route which I take to get to a flat and carless pave for road riding. It goes through a,,,, challenged,,,neighborhood. Several times I have been the object of rocks thrown or called apon to give up my bike. I have always responded by picking up the pace. Two weeks ago a man was shot to death on his bike where I usually ride. I won't take that route anymore.
Is this unpleaseant harassment? I mean this tongue in cheek. Of course it isn't. I have a young woman rider who was talking about such verbal harassment as you describe just yeterday and we looked for ways to deal with it..
But this is a forum for speech and ideas.


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## beegirl (Apr 23, 2005)

*no changes needed*

I don't think the lounge needs any official changes. We definitely don't need to make it for females only. Don't exclude the MEN who post helpful and fun comments because of BOYS who are not contributing anything useful. Let's keep the men like those posting in this thread and the rude boys get one Tampax and then ignored. As far as the comments about this being a less friendly place, I agree to some extent. Please, please, please nobody hold back their opinion, but sometimes a slight change in wording makes all the diffference. Phrases like "I see your point, but.." or "in my opinion" or even "this really bugs me because..." make a big difference. I definitely want to hear your opinion. I don't want to hear that your opinion is fact and that my opinion is stupid. I have gotten some blunt replies that I would have objected to in the real world, but I just let it go because I don't want to turn a thread in that direction. I just chalk it up to poor e-communication. Let's just keep in mind that this is something we enjoy doing. We come here hoping for different opinions in a supportive atmosphere. Thanks for all the help you give us newbies/casual riders!


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## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

male lurker here (geez, makes me sound like a peeping tom), asking that you don’t make the WL accessible only to the ladies. i would hate to be banned from the WL (or the singlespeed, clydesdale, weight-weenie, or the turner or ventana forums) for not really “belonging”. it’s the insight into the diverse takes on mountain biking that keep me coming back to the mtbr forums, and it would suck to have any of those perspectives taken away. i originally visited the WL for my wife’s benefit (lot’s of helpful info btw, thanks!), but now it has become one of the forums i read just for fun. a FAQ sticky might be useful but, overall, no need for any changes.

ant


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## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

Things I like about the WL:
1. You guys (as in, all you people) are pretty funny 
2. You all ride bikes!!
3. You provide information that I don't think I could find anywhere else
4. You are a welcoming and warm community
5. I can post stuff that's non-bike related, simply because I want to chime in, and you all do the same
6. I can tell you my fears, and you relate to me and tell me it's normal
7. I can tell you my dreams and accomplishments, and you get excited with me

Things I see that negatively affect the things I like about the WL:
1. Someone's ideas being made fun of
2. Someone's dreams or accomplishments being diminished 
3. Newbies being harassed instead of politely informed or assisted as to the mood and character of the board

WL as a place of encouragement
As women who ride bikes, I think we're all pretty tough. I'm pretty tough, but I still think most of you can kick my a** (but, pack a lunch)  . 
We all come to this sport with different abilities, and we all start somewhere. Who am I to criticize anyone who throws her leg over a bike because she is more comfortable walking the rock garden? She'll ride it eventually, but perhaps not today. Do I think women are more capable than they give themselves over to be? Yes.

*The women who come to this forum for encouragement will not be comfortable coming here if they are criticized. Most of you who post regularly don't need encouragement.* You are already threre. Women should feel like they can come here and post, whether they have a post count of 10 or 1000, and not get beat up. *It's one thing to talk to people you know in blunt terms, but people who are new to the board should be cut a little slack.* _Of course, I'm not including the Thumpers and Kawboys of the cyber-world. They tore up their "I'm-a-newb-be-kind-to-me" cards long ago._

Sabine, you ask: How can anything thats written and posted to a mountain bike forum be intimidating?
An online forum can be something of the Jr High cafeteria. You come in and think you undrstand the conversation, but you have no idea of the history, inside story, and personalities of those involved in the conversation. You see someone make a comment and then get shot down in flames. You think, Wow. These people are pretty merciless. I better keep my mouth shut.
If you do not see my point, then I don't know how I could explain it to you. Perhaps you're just that much tougher than me. And I mean that. I have always been more compassionate than tough... sometimes to my detriment.

But my point is: There are ways of disagreeing without belittling others or making them feel uncomfortable. This could be done better.

I think this is a great place. Thanks for working to make it better. 

-sunny


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

oops, what I meant by "seperate place" was in reference to the women's-only clubs in real life. I say "sometimes" b/c I personally like to see things mixed up, but can understand where there would be a demand for it.

Definitely don't want to keep guys out of here, what fun would that be?!


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## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

*Etiquette FAQ*



Impy said:


> An idea that has come up about a zillion times is a "etiquette" thread for guys on this forum. Most recently the powers that be have expressed making such a FAQ and making a sticky out of it. If you have input on this please post that as well.


This is a good idea. Could be light-hearted whilst still getting the point across. Here are my thoughts.

ETIQUETTE FAQ:

1. No trolling for dates. If you don't know what this is, please see (link to Thumper thread)
1a. If you do troll for dates, you have been warned. You will be ridiculed mercilessly.

2. Search before you post. Please go to (link to search function) to see if your question has been asked recently. Please feel free to post your questions about riding, bikes, attire, shoes, technique, etc. No question is too basic. Chances are if you are wondering, there are 5 Lurkers wondering the same thing who are just waiting for you to post.

3. Please do not resurrect old threads. Threads that are more than 3 (??) months old are three months old for a reason. If it's really important, please start a new thread. Those of us with ADHD will appreciate it, as we won't have to reread the whole thing to get to your point.

4. If you go outside the lines of etiquette, you will receive a cyber bonk on the head.  
(here, I envision one of those attached images of a large green mallet hitting a smiley or something. I can't create these things in photoshop or whatever, I can only think them up). Perhaps this would be the first warning that someone is skating on think ice. 
"You have just received a cyber bonk on the head. Back off, lighten up, or just go for a ride." Or something...

Thanks,
sunny


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

sunnyracegirl said:


> This is a good idea. Could be light-hearted whilst still getting the point across. Here are my thoughts.
> 
> ETIQUETTE FAQ:
> 
> ...


I'd leave off #2,3,4. and just refer people to the guidelines that already exist. I think for the WL the only things that really need to addressed are things like trolling for dates and inappropriate sexual content. Everything else is already covered in the guidelines . Too many rules is a turn off.

formica


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*Spittin' coffee...*



sunnyracegirl said:


> This is a good idea. Could be light-hearted whilst still getting the point across. Here are my thoughts.
> 
> ETIQUETTE FAQ:
> 
> ...


    Thanks


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## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

I like the WL the way it is and I like having the male perspective. Actually, if was my BF that pointed me to this forum.

Yes - there are some harsh/sarcastic comments made from time to time -but as formica said - that just adds to the spice. contrary to an annoying poster's insistence that I'm "too sensitive" - I'm not offended by the sarcastic comments.

I always look forward to the posts and responses and usually learn something or at least get a good laugh. 

However, catzilla takes the cake with the most outrageous comments. I wish I had her guts!


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## konahottie_311 (May 26, 2005)

*like it just fine*

I think the WL is great.I wouldn't want the guys kicked off of here at all. MOST of the time they have good things to say. I find this forum to give me inspartion and I love it for that.As for just saying it like it is and worring about offending others .... well I dont see that to often and I for one like to hear it like is because sometimes that is the hardest thing to find. The blunt honesty quality.But of couse I do agree that with newbies that some slack should be given. I haven't really been on here that long...but so far it's been all good to me. Kona


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## irieness (Feb 22, 2004)

sunnyracegirl said:


> Sabine, you ask: How can anything thats written and posted to a mountain bike forum be intimidating?
> An online forum can be something of the Jr High cafeteria. You come in and think you undrstand the conversation, but you have no idea of the history, inside story, and personalities of those involved in the conversation. You see someone make a comment and then get shot down in flames. You think, Wow. These people are pretty merciless. I better keep my mouth shut.
> If you do not see my point, then I don't know how I could explain it to you. Perhaps you're just that much tougher than me. And I mean that. I have always been more compassionate than tough... sometimes to my detriment.
> 
> ...


I'll be honest...when I first started mtb...and this women's lounge started, I came on here because I have no other females to ride with and I wanted a females perspective...due to a particular thread and some mean sarcastic comments made by a certain person, and a few followers, I quit coming to the women's lounge and actually quit riding my bike for a while because I was down on the females in the sport and didn't think it was one I wanted to get into because of the attitude of the women in it...(mind you my only experience with female bikers was from here)...well, needless to say I pulled my head out of my arse, and decided I liked mtbiking too much to quit because of a certain "respected" member of the mountain bike community was a bit catty and rude (in a non playful way) on the internet...now I stop in from time to time, but would much rather play with the boys...but I've always leaned that way anyways...

so I agree with Laura...when someone's a newbie...go a little easy on them...they may not understand your sense of humor or the whole board for that matter...


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

sunnyracegirl said:


> Things I like about the WL:
> Sabine, you ask: How can anything thats written and posted to a mountain bike forum be intimidating?
> An online forum can be something of the Jr High cafeteria. You come in and think you undrstand the conversation, but you have no idea of the history, inside story, and personalities of those involved in the conversation. You see someone make a comment and then get shot down in flames. You think, Wow. These people are pretty merciless. I better keep my mouth shut.
> If you do not see my point, then I don't know how I could explain it to you. Perhaps you're just that much tougher than me. And I mean that. I have always been more compassionate than tough... sometimes to my detriment.
> ...


You are right. I won't understand how some people are so deeply and personally affected by some poster's opinion that they could choose to ignore. But I probably am logical to a fault in the same sense that you are compassionate to a fault.

Sabine


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## Sabine (Jan 12, 2004)

irieness said:


> I'll be honest...when I first started mtb...and this women's lounge started, I came on here because I have no other females to ride with and I wanted a females perspective...due to a particular thread and some mean sarcastic comments made by a certain person, and a few followers, I quit coming to the women's lounge and actually quit riding my bike for a while because I was down on the females in the sport and didn't think it was one I wanted to get into because of the attitude of the women in it...(mind you my only experience with female bikers was from here)...well, needless to say I pulled my head out of my arse, and decided I liked mtbiking too much to quit because of a certain "respected" member of the mountain bike community was a bit catty and rude (in a non playful way) on the internet...now I stop in from time to time, but would much rather play with the boys...but I've always leaned that way anyways...
> 
> so I agree with Laura...when someone's a newbie...go a little easy on them...they may not understand your sense of humor or the whole board for that matter...


Irie, I am glad you pulled your head out of your arse. Can I give you some advice? Please don't ever choose to give my (or anyone else for that matter) opinion that kind of weight ever again. You are far too skilled of a rider to decide to stay home just because I can be a sarcastic *****. Thats just nonsense and I won't stand for it.

Sabine


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*This is a classic case*

of a new or potential rider not being able to hold on for some subtle reasons which don't have much to do with being on the bike. Please understand that I do not intend to hijack this thread but it's parallels with engaging and retaining new riders is startling. I think this is about tolerance for certain kinds of attitudes.

It is one thing to motivate women riders who are "already there" and quite another to induce new riders, who are just "not sure" and just outside the sport, to be involved at all. It is a clear demonstration of potential riders and committed riders which I have referred to as "befores" and "afters." The "afters" are a breeze by comparison; no longer shattered by a fall they have done before but closer to figuring it out.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

I like the WL how it is, and don't think that men should be excluded because a lot of them are here to ask advice on behalf of the wives/girlsfriends/sisters etc.

There are a good mix of personalities in here, and that makes it interesting. Hello Kitty and her caustic remarks, formica's good advice (especially where sewing is concerned), *rt*'s race reports, Catzilla's hilarious comments, Screampint's pics of Fruita... all these personalities help to make it, well, not boring.

Trouble is with the internet you have to take what you read with a pinch of salt because you can't tell what someone was thinking when they wrote it. In a real life conversation you have voice inflections and facial/body expressions, so you're pretty sure what someone really means. All we have are words and a few basic smilies, so it's easy to misunderstand people or be misunderstood yourself. Even so, I really enjoy reading this forum and contributing in any way I can... forums are a great medium, so I vote that we continue as we are 

- Jen.


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## Mtnz2Sea (Dec 13, 2004)

*A FAQ would be nice.*

Hello there! I really love this forum an often direct women riders I meet on the trails and at the races to this web site forum. New Jersey is the most populated state in the nation, but our race series has so few women. When I asked two of last years beginers why they dont ride anymore, they replied that wouldn't ride alone and that they could not "bond" with the guys. This forum got them both back into cycling. Sometimes I think women ask questions on this forum that they actually wouldn't Ask another female rider. Keep up the good advice.

Secondly, can we please have a FAQ board for the guys to learn what "not" to say when riding with women. At yesterdays night ride I had to endure the Spainish Inqusion of questions from the new guy. When I say I'm "unavailable" that doen't mean you can continue to ask if I'm married, what do I do for a living, how I afford the things I do, ya ya ya ,... Thanks!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Mtnz2Sea said:


> Secondly, can we please have a FAQ board for the guys to learn what "not" to say when riding with women. At yesterdays night ride I had to endure the Spainish Inqusion of questions from the new guy. When I say I'm "unavailable" that doen't mean you can continue to ask if I'm married, what do I do for a living, how I afford the things I do, ya ya ya ,... Thanks!


Wow - "What do you do for a living?" is an off-limits question? Maybe he just wanted to get to know people in the group (including you) since he's new?


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## Mtnz2Sea (Dec 13, 2004)

*I'm a welder*

Hello, I believe there is a time and a place for certain things. While I am riding I don't think I want to talk about myself. I want to talk about the ride, the trail, how to hit the rock, jump the roots, tackle the climb.. I don't want to answer questions like,

Do you have any kids
Do you want to have kids
Where do you live
Do you rent or own
how can you afford to go to Europe for three weeks
why do you have 6 sets of niterider lights
how many bikes do you own
I like "mexican food" what about you
do you ski or snowboard

And it continued for half an hour,......even though I said, "Look, I'm just here to ride." 
This guys brother was also a rider. He quitely told him to lay off, he's embarrassing himself.

It wasn't like he was bad looking either. Nice build and pretty good bike skills,..but can you imagine what it would be like to sleep with a guy like that?.... He would never shut up. God makes some strange people.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Mtnz2Sea said:


> Hello, I believe there is a time and a place for certain things. While I am riding I don't think I want to talk about myself. I want to talk about the ride, the trail, how to hit the rock, jump the roots, tackle the climb.. I don't want to answer questions like,
> 
> Do you have any kids
> Do you want to have kids
> ...


I see most of that as general conversation, not off limits. Sorry he was bugging you on a ride, some people are annoying. My solution when someone is talking too much and I just want to ride is to go faster than them.  That, or a direct "I don't feel like talking right now" or "That is not your business" repeated directly until they get it. 


> Secondly, can we please have a FAQ board for the guys to learn what "not" to say when riding with women.


I think that is a silly idea for this board. What is one person's idea of what not to say may not be another's ( see above) I don't mind talking about any of the above things with the people I ride with.... the kinds of things I DO consider personal have to with my finances and my sex life.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

formica said:


> I think that is a silly idea for this board. What is one person's idea of what not to say may not be another's ( see above) I don't mind talking about any of the above things with the people I ride with.... the kinds of things I DO consider personal have to with my finances and my sex life.


I agree - everyone is different. It depends on the person and what I feel like talking about. I wouldn't say anything is off limits with the right person. And some people I just don't want to talk to at all. I can't imagine there being any sort of guideline to it - if someone acts like they don't want to talk to you, quit bugging them.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

*Agree*



formica said:


> I think that is a silly idea for this board. What is one person's idea of what not to say may not be another's ( see above) I don't mind talking about any of the above things with the people I ride with.... the kinds of things I DO consider personal have to with my finances and my sex life.


Not only is it silly, it wouldn't work. If someone is so oblvious as to miss key hints that you're not interested, they would also not follow any do's/don'ts.

Mary Ann


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## irieness (Feb 22, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> of a new or potential rider not being able to hold on for some subtle reasons which don't have much to do with being on the bike. Please understand that I do not intend to hijack this thread but it's parallels with engaging and retaining new riders is startling. I think this is about tolerance for certain kinds of attitudes.
> 
> It is one thing to motivate women riders who are "already there" and quite another to induce new riders, who are just "not sure" and just outside the sport, to be involved at all. It is a clear demonstration of potential riders and committed riders which I have referred to as "befores" and "afters." The "afters" are a breeze by comparison; no longer shattered by a fall they have done before but closer to figuring it out.


I wish I didn't always have to reread your posts a few times before I figured them out...  Man, I need to hang out with some people who have a more extensive vocabulary than slang...


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## irieness (Feb 22, 2004)

Sabine said:


> Irie, I am glad you pulled your head out of your arse. Can I give you some advice? Please don't ever choose to give my (or anyone else for that matter) opinion that kind of weight ever again. You are far too skilled of a rider to decide to stay home just because I can be a sarcastic *****. Thats just nonsense and I won't stand for it.
> 
> Sabine


Thanks Sabine....yeah, I was having some confidence issues at that time...and this was actually this first "forum/chat" I had ever been on...kinda jumped into that one without looking...oh well, lesson learned...


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## -kelly- (Mar 11, 2004)

For the most part this has been a pretty civil and accommodating site. Occasionally we have had lapses, but the community as a whole reigns in those who stray beyond what the community thinks is comfortable. We hang here because of the positive banter and the youthful playfulness in the context of our shared enthusiasm for our sport. We really don't want open rancor here; there is no room for hate or the negative that hurts or commentary that is offensive, even if it only offends a select few. We are socially enhanced beings and our social interaction is the primary driver for our evolution as a species. To be social is to be accepting of others and gracious even if we don't agree. If we are not accommodating we are no longer evolving and we cut short the intellectual heights we might have reached. Below are a few guidelines maybe we should all keep in mind. 

Work very hard to avoid making personal assertions about other posters. While it is true that no matter how hard you try, somebody somewhere will take personal offense to what you wrote, still make the attempt to keep it impersonal. In the other direction, ignore personal attacks made against you at all costs. It is a practical impossibility to defend your honor while engaged in a mud-slinging contest. Besides, you will find when you meet over beer/coffee/whatever that most of the personal attacks weren't meant. People type and read without the aids of body language and feelings get hurt easily. 

Be confident that the ideas you express have a power of their own that will make them capable of defending themselves. This will free you to resist the urge to convince others to join your point of view. Belaboring your original point/opinion multiple times in a single thread is a complete waste of bandwidth and it looks desperate and insecure. Never criticize another's beliefs as inferior or illegitimate. If you cannot affirm another's rights to hold their beliefs, you are not prepared to have a civil discussion with them.

When you step into a discussion of ideals, you can be guaranteed that somebody will disagree. When you do this on electronic forums, you can also pretty much guarantee that somebody will disagree with you in an inappropriate manner. This is simply the cost of doing business. You should ask yourself would I engage in dialogue in this manner with a co-worker or colleague? Be mindful of the possible implication. 

I think I have said enough. I do want to openly apologize to anyone I have offended. Let’s try to keep our stoke on and remember the reason why we are all part of the best online discussion board for mtn biking.


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## Mtnz2Sea (Dec 13, 2004)

*You're probably right*

Yea, Mary Ann, this guy was not the sharpest knife in the draw....very dull. He probably wouldn't get the do,s and don'ts of a FQA list. I will say that I couldn't ride fast and away from this guy since I was there for a fellow female rider that had asked me to right with her which was slow. (The team was too fast.) That's when this guy kept asking my life history. Later, I had to ride with his, my friend and her husband because all three of them lost their lights. Even her husband said this guy was way out of line even before I mentioned anything to my friend. It's just so sad that some people never learn appropriate social skills.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*You are*



irieness said:


> I wish I didn't always have to reread your posts a few times before I figured them out...  Man, I need to hang out with some people who have a more extensive vocabulary than slang...


a goddess!


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Sabine said:


> You are right. I won't understand how some people are so deeply and personally affected by some poster's opinion that they could choose to ignore. But I probably am logical to a fault in the same sense that you are compassionate to a fault.
> 
> Sabine


Yeah, I'm the same way.

But it would do any good for the discussion or community if we were all the same personality type! Diversity is good!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

do you suppose word got out that you can't pick up chicks in the WL?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=1318232#post1318232


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## bad_lil_kitty (Mar 23, 2005)

Alike a few women who have responded, a male mtbiker recommended that I check out MTBR as I was just getting back into riding (road and mtn). For me (personally) heading to the Beginners and WL rooms for information as well as entertainment regardless of trolls and flamers just made sense. For me, I learn from others and who best to learn from then those who share the same gender and/or level of riding. 

I'm a newbie full of questions and inquiry. Some may take to my questions/posts and others may not. Though some may feel the need to smack a newbie around, there are always folks willing to help him/her out. Everyone isn't going to get along - although the thought is noble - but, that shouldn't break another's spirit to go out and ride.

I have enjoyed learning and reading experiences of women who may have shared similar experiences or have similar trepidations as myself - it's just a nice reminder that 'we're' not in it 'alone' (okay, that sounded really stupid). 

I have also appreciated the male's perspective in the WL - although, aforementioned the dating/pick-up thing is lame - and don't mind them posting or contributing.

blk


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

oldbroad said:


> I find this forum to be interesting & informative and have no complaints. There is the occasional caustic comment, but nothing like on other forums.


I was thinking about this earlier. The internet forum I post on the most covers skiing/boarding/biking/surfing/etc. It has almost no moderation at all. Porn is totally acceptable as long as you label the thread properly, and there's no restriction on swearing or personal attacks. Newbies who ask stupid questions or can't figure out to use the search function are typically harrassed mercilessly. There are some idiots there who I hope to never meet, but at the same time that's the one where I've made close friends and actually go skiing and riding with them all the time.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this, other than the fact that this forum is one of the most tame I've ever encountered. People go out of their way to be nice to new people, which is great. I guess it just struck me as funny to have this recent outcry that we should be nicer and more welcoming to beginners here, when this is already one of the nicest forums on the internet! (Plus I think if you tame it down much more it would lose most of the fun!)


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## -kelly- (Mar 11, 2004)

connie said:


> I was thinking about this earlier. The internet forum I post on the most covers skiing/boarding/biking/surfing/etc. It has almost no moderation at all. Porn is totally acceptable as long as you label the thread properly, and there's no restriction on swearing or personal attacks. Newbies who ask stupid questions or can't figure out to use the search function are typically harrassed mercilessly.


I know which board you are referring to. I am a pretty bold/edgy women and I won't even step into that place. Glad you were able to make some personal connections with some of the posters. I have read some good stuff on the site, you just gotta be willing to weed through it. Most individuals lead a "balls out" lifestyle on that board. I kind of admire that.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

-kelly- said:


> I know which board you are referring to. I am a pretty bold/edgy women and I won't even step into that place. Glad you were able to make some personal connections with some of the posters. I have read some good stuff on the site, you just gotta be willing to weed through it. Most individuals lead a "balls out" lifestyle on that board. I kind of admire that.


I miraculously managed to join without much drama. I was selling some skis and got harrassed that I was a. "pretending to be a girl", b. "selling my husband's skis without his knowledge." I thought both were pretty funny more than anything and now I've been there for about 5 years. You need a thick skin on occasion, but that's okay.

It's been a phenomenal resource for skiing - we've had "friends" we never met before show us around their home resorts (there's nothing like a local tour guide - and the typical skill level is impressive!), offer up lodging, meet for dinner and we organize several large group events every year. If you ever want an intro, let me know! I know that one is scary to just jump into.


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## Dude (Jan 12, 2004)

*Ladies if i may...*

Please don't change the lounge... It's taken me a long time to find a chair in this place that I can call my own...  .

I think Impy does an awesome job as mod and the rest of you are just great posters.. I only wish you all posted more but i do understand you are out riding rather than being behind the computer all day. ....

I wish I had more insightful things to add to this little "village" of people; hmmmmm who would be the indian, the cop, the construction worker! oooppppssss back on to the subject.

Ok here is an example.... My wife has been talking to me about getting back into riding but she doesn't want to do it with me to start off with.... So I told her when she was ready I would put out a call in the WL for some ride buddies if she wanted... She was like; Yeah that might not be a bad idea.....

To be honest with all of you..... I have had the opportunity to meet a few of you and you all rock.... Now I wish my wife and I could meet all of you so it wouldn't be so strange when I tell my wife Oh so and so said this!!! And she gives me that look like.... Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

-Dude


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## Bikehigh (Jan 14, 2004)

I'm a guy, so my opinion doesn't and shouldn't mean squat here, but I feel the need to post anyway. Sorry.  

I can read the sign on the front door, it says "Women's Lounge", and therefore I take it upon myself to limit my posting here. Even if I do have some insight into a particular poster's situation, I figure that if my opinion was being asked for, the OP would open it up for everybody to reply to or post in one of the other forums specific to the nature of their issue. I figure that the fact that they chose to post in the women's lounge, means that they're looking for womens opinions, and unless I feel my POV as a man would give some insight that a poster, man or woman, might find invaluable, I keep my mouth shut. 

Not trying to insult or offend any one, but I have to wonder about guys who have chosen to make themselves one of the girls. If there is a change I would make to the lounge, it would be to ask these guys to cut back on the amount they post here. But then again, I'm not a woman. So, like I said earlier, my opinion about the goings on in the women's lounge shouldn't mean squat. Apparently the women of this lounge have seen fit to allow certain guys into the circle, and so that's all that matters. I'll just continue lurking through the big giant hole in the wall, with the occasional post if I feel it would be welcomed. 

Thanks for letting us guys play with you all. As others have said, this is a very tame forum compared to some I post on, and very welcoming. Also, the sense of humor most of you ladies exhibit is incredible. Even when I've gotten into it with one of the more "hostile" members of the lounge, I've always felt welcome. And that's one of the reasons I lurk as much as I do, and I suppose why other guys even feel OK with posting as regulars. Besides the SS forum, the WL is one of the two that I always make sure to read when I come to MTBR. Thanks again for making it such a great place. Don't change a thing.


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## litespeedchick (Jan 13, 2004)

What you have there is a nerd with no social skills. Not completely uncommon, but more prevelent among roadies.


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## Bikehigh (Jan 14, 2004)

litespeedchick said:


> What you have there is a nerd with no social skills. Not completely uncommon, but more prevelent among roadies.


Did I used to date you before I decided I'd rather spend time with my bike and dog?


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## -kelly- (Mar 11, 2004)

connie said:


> It's been a phenomenal resource for skiing - we've had "friends" we never met before show us around their home resorts (there's nothing like a local tour guide - and the typical skill level is impressive!), offer up lodging, meet for dinner and we organize several large group events every year. If you ever want an intro, let me know! I know that one is scary to just jump into.


Thanks for the offer. I have lurked on and off in the ski forum for about 2 years. I go there to get the beta on conditions, gear, and my fill of cyberspace face shots.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

-kelly- said:


> Thanks for the offer. I have lurked on and off in the ski forum for about 2 years. I go there to get the beta on conditions, gear, and my fill of cyberspace face shots.


If you ever are out skiing in UT, let me know!


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## smw (Jun 22, 2005)

I am a guy and I love this forum. Im married so often times the "other" perspective is enlightening and useful. There seems to be more support in this forum then most of the others. Most of the guys that do post here regularly seem welcomed. 
Thanks for a job well done
Sean


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