# Two Unno Horn bikes (frame numbers 07/2019 and 13/2019)



## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

*Two Unno Horn bikes (#07 and #13)*

Hello, here are two bikes based on lightweight Unno Horn frame (https://www.unno.com/horn/). We were assembling those during long fall and winter months making them looking the same with some differences in application: one is ultimate XC racing shark and more fun bike but still fast XC machine.










The frames came directly from from Barcelona, Spain. The great place where Unno and Gemini factories are located. Both offer modern products: light, stiff. And really forward thinking geometry for XC:







Just notice the head angle and the chainstay length.

Frames weight.
Matt black (clear carbon finish): 1445g without hardware








Gloss black (clear carbon finish): 1512g without hardware








Components in matching lightweight and XC race applicable concept with nice black and kashima-cork-cuprum color scheme.
















So, here is the first bike:








Some more photos:
































The second bike differs in suspension settings (rear shock, front fork and fork rake), stem length and some small details.








We even race the bikes in Andalusia Bike Race, 6 day stage race in Spain just before COVID covered the world.



















I would notice how the bike is capable on steep climbs despite its 'relaxed' head angle (for XC competitors). That head angle allows to ride over any terrain giving some 'not worrying' feeling.










And yes, it is really capable on descends, but for me it is now a new challenge to learn to ride in modern way on modern 'forward' geometry bike - it requires me to move by body more forward that I used to be in. And I still need some time to find body position in fast flat corners.










On steep 'downhill' sections bike demonstrated me its wild nature. I have all-mountain bike in the past and I remembers those feelings. The Horn is very close here, it is real trail-enduro bike with short suspension movement on descents.










I believe the world will get recovered from the infection and me with the bike will race again.


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

Real nice build and impressive weight, with no limits $$$$. Just a couple of places where you could lose a little more grams: brakes, Trickstuff vs XTR about 100 gr less, hubs, Extralite vs Newmen 96 gr less


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Dream frame. Maybe when this nightmare ends...


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

:eekster::eekster::yikes::yikes:

That is awesome, and soooo light!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Igor, what is the rear shock measurement? 170mm x 35mm?


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

MattMay said:


> Igor, what is the rear shock measurement? 170mm x 35mm?


7.25" x 1.75"


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

doccoraje said:


> Real nice build and impressive weight, with no limits $$$$. Just a couple of places where you could lose a little more grams: brakes, Trickstuff vs XTR about 100 gr less, hubs, Extralite vs Newmen 96 gr less


There are no such difference between Trickstuff and XTR brakes if you put all small parts from Tricktuff on scales and consider 'matchmaker' for XTR shifter. Just about 50-60 gr.
There are the 1st generation of Newmen hubs (about 95 gr front and 199 gr rear) that is lighter current 2nd gen. And there are no Extralite hubs for pi-ropes on the market.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Love the build. How does the 12 speed Garbunk cassette shift?
Why not 11 speed xx1 for XC? That's 100 gram savings. Add in a Hopp XTR derailleur and your saving 200 grams or something. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Igor Gordienko said:


> 7.25" x 1.75"


Thank you!


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

Thank you!



Suns_PSD said:


> How does the 12 speed Garbunk cassette shift?


In general it is OK, i didn't notice any real difference, however finish quality of XTR and Sram XX cassettes are better.



Suns_PSD said:


> Why not 11 speed xx1 for XC?


The build purpose for this bike is stage racing (4-7 day long events) at mountain areas of Spain, Austria, Italy and Poland. So, big 12spd cassette range is very helpful there to keep legs fresh between the stages.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Igor,
Is the Unno recommended fork rake 51mm? Wondering how a 44mm rake would work in your opinion.


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

MattMay said:


> Igor,
> Is the Unno recommended fork rake 51mm? Wondering how a 44mm rake would work in your opinion.


I've asked Unno about it. Here is the answer: "Honestly you can't go wrong with any, the more offset a bit more agile, the less the more stable, so definitely a bit what you would prefer."

Our bikes have different rake (and trail), 51mm works well for me. Here is trail comparison for some bikes


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Interesting, good to know, thanks again!


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## joeadnan (Oct 21, 2003)

¡Eso es loco! Thanks for sharing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Love them. Nice bikes! 

Are you really running just 3 screws in the front brakes for stage racing?


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

TylerVernon said:


> Are you really running just 3 screws in the front brakes for stage racing?


Thank you for comment. 
6 screws per wheel: 3 screws made of titanium and 3 made of aluminium - race proven setup for years even in big mountains (like Bike TransAlp event). But I need to mention I am below 60 kg (or 132 lbs) racer. Low body weight is one of the reasons I can afford really light bike for racing


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

very cool bikes Igor! I've always been curious about the gemini bar/stem sizing. if you put a flat edge from each end of the handlebar, how much vertical height rise is there from the centre of the stem please? I've always liked the weight & looks of the propus, but was concerned that there was too much negative height drop for me


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## Veloraptor (Feb 6, 2008)

Igor!

How does it ride (or them...). I'm thinking of getting one. What's your size? Thanks!


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

scant said:


> if you put a flat edge from each end of the handlebar, how much vertical height rise is there from the centre of the stem please? I've always liked the weight & looks of the propus, but was concerned that there was too much negative height drop for me


I'm sorry for late reply, I am far away from my bike now due to Covid-19. Maybe Gemini description can help on their site in Geometry section https://ridegemini.com/en/tienda/propus-en/


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

Veloraptor said:


> Igor!
> 
> How does it ride (or them...). I'm thinking of getting one. What's your size? Thanks!


It is very modern bike and if you had a chance to ride BMC Fourstroke it rides pretty the same but in better\skinnier shape. It does not require (and does not provide any option for) a remote lockout for rear suspension and it is really cool feature. My height it 170 cm (5'7") and Unno provide just single size that fits all. Indeed - not all


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Igor Gordienko said:


> It does not require (and does not provide any option for) a remote lockout for rear suspension and it is really cool feature.


Ahem, that's BS. In XC racing, you need a lockout to combat rear end flex, mashing, furious throwing the bike around, etc. I don't care what kind of FS bike it is, it will not transmit power like a hardtail and to that extent, I'd never buy a bike for XC racing that doesn't have a remote lockout option. It' the same reason forks have lockouts.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

I emailed Unno about it. Here is their response.


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

Jayem said:


> Ahem, that's BS. In XC racing, you need a lockout to combat rear end flex, mashing, furious throwing the bike around, etc. I don't care what kind of FS bike it is, it will not transmit power like a hardtail and to that extent, I'd never buy a bike for XC racing that doesn't have a remote lockout option. It' the same reason forks have lockouts.


I have the same thoughts a while ago. I had a lot of FS bikes and always looked for a very firm rear. But after riding some modern bikes with high anti-squat I realized that I do not always need that feeling of a hardtail and I do really need speed in the most conditions during a race. Only race finish position counts, not the feelings. And I still used to lock my front suspension in out of saddle position since I have a lot of weight over my front wheel and I want more support from front suspension that locked position does.

And of course I will use my hardtail on some smooth terrains where I do not need rear suspension at all. I have just some local XC races that offer those smooth trails. The best MTB stage races in mountain areas of Europe are FS demanding with a lot of stones and roots on the course.

In February 2020 I raced Andalusia Bike Race, a famous MTB stage race in Spain. I have finished on 7th position in Masters 30-40 category. The reason I mention it - I have never locked out my rear suspension during the race (even manually using a lever under top tube) and I have never regret it. Last year I did it on hardtail, it was not a huge problem, but it required much more accelerations after some technical stuff and much more concentration on loose gravel\stone accents.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Igor Gordienko said:


> I have the same thoughts a while ago. I had a lot of FS bikes and always looked for a very firm rear. But after riding some modern bikes with high anti-squat I realized that I do not always need that feeling of a hardtail and I do really need speed in the most conditions during a race. Only race finish position counts, not the feelings. And I still used to lock my front suspension in out of saddle position since I have a lot of weight over my front wheel and I want more support from front suspension that locked position does.
> 
> And of course I will use my hardtail on some smooth terrains where I do not need rear suspension at all. I have just some local XC races that offer those smooth trails. The best MTB stage races in mountain areas of Europe are FS demanding with a lot of stones and roots on the course.
> 
> In February 2020 I raced Andalusia Bike Race, a famous MTB stage race in Spain. I have finished on 7th position in Masters 30-40 category. The reason I mention it - I have never locked out my rear suspension during the race (even manually using a lever under top tube) and I have never regret it. Last year I did it on hardtail, it was not a huge problem, but it required much more accelerations after some technical stuff and much more concentration on loose gravel\stone accents.


Congrats on your placement. First of all, high-AS in my mind would be around 130-200% through at least half of the travel, which will ride very bad over rough terrain while pedaling. Normal is around 100% (sometimes a bit more) that counteracts the the rearward weight shift when you pedal. Many bikes will have a steeply falling anti-squat profile, which means whenever the suspension activates, like going over a bump uphill, it gets into a feedback-cycle and saps more and more energy. Less than 100% and you get squat that sucks energy during climbs. So if by "high", you mean well over 130%, then I wouldn't want to be on that bike anyway.

But on light short travel XC bikes, it doesn't make a radical difference either, especially with a lockout. The primary reason for a lockout though is not suspension efficiency, it's simply moving your weight around, thrashing the bike around, making sure that all of those movements are converted to forward movement. I too ride bike with a good amount of AS through most of the travel, a Pivot 429 SL, but even it benefits greatly from a lockout. Even though XC races are now more challenging and varied than in the past, there are still lots of sections where you can take advantage of better power transfer and a stiffer rear end.

I've raced both ways and IMO, you are fooling yourself at the top levels if you think it doesn't make a difference. I'm not saying it's a huge hit either, but at those levels, seconds, even fractions of a second, count.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I think it boils down to usage. The longer a race gets, the less a lockout matters, IMO. If I'm doing a 5 day stage race where I'm grinding up a fire road for 5km at a time to the top of the next singletrack descent, I have plenty of time to reach down and hit a lockout lever, manually. 

If I'm racing a 20min short track race, a remote would be very much essential. 

Horses for courses.


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## oliver37 (Jul 30, 2017)

Those are two gorgeous bikes! The suspension *looks* a bit like the VPP design from Santa Cruz; I wonder if it feels similar. It seems like everything you read about Santa Cruz, esp the current 2018+ Blur (which I ride) is that it pedals so efficiently you don't need the lockouts.

I never really understood that though, as even a little bit of squish feels sluggish to me when I'm trying put down anything north of 300w. By a wide margin, I prefer to climb locked out, even on an efficient VPP suspension. But in that mode the dampers are so rigid that wheelspin becomes an issue over rocks and bumps, so having the remote lever right there is super useful. I probably toggle it back and forth 3-5 times per km when climbing; it's night-and-day noticeable.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## tangerineowl (Nov 18, 2013)

Igor,

How much compliance does the Gelu saddle have? 

I've often wondered about that. Do you have any other saddle to compare it against for compliance? 

They have a wide nose. Do you find your thighs hitting it much?


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting! really cool build. I've been wanting a Horn for over a year now but they are very slow to produce new models and haven't begun making larger sizes yet. 

I am one of the people who emailed asking about a remote lockout for the rear. I 100% disagree with his stance that it isn't useful. I don't think any antisquat value is effective enough when standing and pedaling, especially when doing so in a way where you don't hold your body very still (there are many techniques to standing and pedaling).


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

Very nice bikes, and very clearly inspired by the Intense Sniper. Cesar Rojo has been working with Intense for a while on their suspension, so it makes sense. My Sniper Trail has 120mm travel front and rear, 66.5 degree head angle, and weighs 9.9kg with Ikon 2.6 tires, dropper post and DPX2 rear shock. It also doesn't need a lockout for the rear. In fact, I did some testing, and the bike rolls worse with just trail mode activated on anything but the smoothest dirt. And during standing sprinting it is enough to lock the fork, the rear end sits solidly in it's sag point due to the anti squat.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I could put a lockout on there withe some zip ties, and I would do it without a doubt if I owned this bike. I'm with Jayem; I don't care how good you say your suspension is, I'll still want to lock it out pretty frequently. There is also the issue of pedaling through rock gardens, to keep the bb high with the lockout to avoid pedal strikes. So many reasons to use it. This also allows the open mode to be really open for coasting descents without some tune that compromises with a higher compression to accommodate pedaling. 

But why I probably wouldn't buy it is because of the seat tube angle. With those short chainstays and slacked front end, that saddle needs to be close to the center of the bike. You shouldn't have to work to weight the front wheel for a flat corner. For a bike like this, I don't see why they went with such short stays. I'd want something around 440mm, no lie.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Seatpost seems pretty much XC-level steep going from 75.1 to 73.7 degrees...no?


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## at_ecd (Apr 6, 2007)

Which specific Darimo parts did you use for your Divine SL tuning?


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm sorry for not being here for a while.



Jayem said:


> First of all, high-AS in my mind would be around 130-200% through at least half of the travel, which will ride very bad over rough terrain while pedaling. Normal is around 100% (sometimes a bit more) that counteracts the the rearward weight shift when you pedal. Many bikes will have a steeply falling anti-squat profile, which means whenever the suspension activates, like going over a bump uphill, it gets into a feedback-cycle and saps more and more energy. Less than 100% and you get squat that sucks energy during climbs. So if by "high", you mean well over 130%, then I wouldn't want to be on that bike anyway.


High-AS is just higher AS values than some common bikes have. Yes, I mean AS values on 34-50 gear in some pedaling range of suspension near a sag point. A good suspension in my mind is active on rough terrain and still supportive in terms of pedaling efficiency, that is about 100% AS near a sag point. I would include a progressive rear shock (and frame) characteristics, shock compression and suspension ability to recover to a sag position (rebound) to your feedback-cycle formula.



Jayem said:


> I too ride bike with a good amount of AS through most of the travel, a Pivot 429 SL, but even it benefits greatly from a lockout. Even though XC races are now more challenging and varied than in the past, there are still lots of sections where you can take advantage of better power transfer and a stiffer rear end.


We are different in assessment of benefits values. Exaggerating, there are Specialized Epic FS with Brain technology and some new bikes with Fox Live (including Pivot Mach 4 SL) that use lockout in event more radical way but they are not noticeably much faster bikes. Yes, totally agree, there a lot of places during short XCO where I would prefer riding FS with remote or even a light hardtail, especially start and finish sprint areas. And there are no huge difference at majority of stage XCM events.



Jayem said:


> I've raced both ways and IMO, you are fooling yourself at the top levels if you think it doesn't make a difference. I'm not saying it's a huge hit either, but at those levels, seconds, even fractions of a second, count.


This was my topmost concert before building this bike. In my races time on long climbs and fast descends matters and it is not just about seconds even at elite level (I am much slower).

BTW here is my weapon for shorter events that has remote lockout for both front and rear suspensions:


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

TylerVernon said:


> There is also the issue of pedaling through rock gardens, to keep the bb high with the lockout to avoid pedal strikes.


A funny fact. I had some pedal strikes before with Scott Spark that had remote lockout and I had zero strikes with Unno. Riding through rock garden is very demanding to suspension itself and not the lockout type.


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

tangerineowl said:


> Igor,
> 
> How much compliance does the Gelu saddle have?
> 
> ...


Sorry for late response. I would say it is a pretty stiff saddle. I am able to squeeze its wings just for few millimeters by hand. But in same time it feels comfortable to me during a ride.

Yes, its nose is too wide. I would prefer few millimeters more narrow but it is still acceptable to me. I haven't any issues with my thighs and I had no sores after a 6 days stage race.


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## Igor Gordienko (Jun 27, 2007)

at_ecd said:


> Which specific Darimo parts did you use for your Divine SL tuning?


https://r2-bike.com/DARIMO-CARBON-Yokes-for-T2-Sseatpost-rear (two rear yokes since front Darimo yoke is threadless)
https://r2-bike.com/DARIMO-CARBON-Rocker-for-T1-Sattelstuetze
The rocker requires a hole to be drilled to avoid hitting a seatpost valve.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Igor Gordienko said:


> A funny fact. I had some pedal strikes before with Scott Spark that had remote lockout and I had zero strikes with Unno. Riding through rock garden is very demanding to suspension itself and not the lockout type.


There are a lot of factors involved, from the bb height of the frame to the placebo effect.


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## at_ecd (Apr 6, 2007)

Thanks for the info about the post hardware.

How are your Gemini handlebars holding up? I am thinking about these for my wife's new xcm race bike build.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Igor Gordienko said:


> I'm sorry for not being here for a while.
> 
> High-AS is just higher AS values than some common bikes have. Yes, I mean AS values on 34-50 gear in some pedaling range of suspension near a sag point. A good suspension in my mind is active on rough terrain and still supportive in terms of pedaling efficiency, that is about 100% AS near a sag point. I would include a progressive rear shock (and frame) characteristics, shock compression and suspension ability to recover to a sag position (rebound) to your feedback-cycle formula.


Well, I think the 100% at the sag point is a fallacy in design criteria, one that Specialized and others have invested in for years, but one that's shown to be faulty in the last 5+ years or so. Even Specialized has changed their Epic to have not more anti-squat, but a flatter anti-squat profile. Halfway through the travel, it's at 90%. The DW Link, Santa Cruz, Yeti and others maintain 100% to 1/2 or 2/3rds of the travel, then it drops off. The idea is that if the suspension activates, like riding over bumps, especially uphill, it won't reach a position where there's significantly less anti-squat, which would require you to pedal a lot harder AND cause your pedal-strokes to compress the suspension. Note, I'm not talking about high anti-squat that is significantly over 100%, that would cause interference between pedaling and bump absorption, but the old school idea of 100% anti-squat at the sag point, and then significantly decreasing, is flawed IME. There are still plenty of bikes like this, but more and more manufacturers have been flattening out the anti-squat curve, which make the pedaling performance much more consistent, uphill, downhill, under load, with more weight rearward, etc.

Bottom line, the 100% at sag point only works if you stay at sag point all the time. That's not the real world. That's more like a totally smooth road IMO. 100% through most of the travel (is still not "high AS") is what's made the newest crop of bikes pedal so well.

That said, low travel (100mm) and light weight will always be easier to ride faster, and race bikes with lockouts can overcome some suspension inefficiency.

If you didn't have decent AS, yes, progressive would pedal pretty poor. Most XC bikes are not very progressive, since they don't see as many bottoming-type events, although the nature of air-shocks is progressive, so they usually end up with some. It's more the all-mountain and big-hit bikes that tend to have more travel progression. Although no one makes them anymore (because they were bad), the falling-rate designs did pedal pretty well, since you needed a much higher spring-rate than normal to avoid bottoming out. Some people can't understand this, but if you think about spring rates and how progressive means "very little resistance"-early on and a whole lot more later, it hopefully starts to make sense.



> We are different in assessment of benefits values. Exaggerating, there are Specialized Epic FS with Brain technology and some new bikes with Fox Live (including Pivot Mach 4 SL) that use lockout in event more radical way but they are not noticeably much faster bikes. Yes, totally agree, there a lot of places during short XCO where I would prefer riding FS with remote or even a light hardtail, especially start and finish sprint areas. And there are no huge difference at majority of stage XCM events.


I don't think that's a fair comparison. It would be a fair comparison if there was some FS bike being used by top pros that did NOT have ANY kind of lockout. Then we could see if there is a difference. Bikes like the Epic and ones with the Live Valve do what lockouts do, just with less interaction from the rider. I would imagine no pro would use a bike without some kind of system like this, because it's going to give away too many watts to not have a lockout. Those watts make a difference. We are talking XC race bikes. It always matters.



> This was my topmost concert before building this bike. In my races time on long climbs and fast descends matters and it is not just about seconds even at elite level (I am much slower).


Sure, but the seconds DO matter. If you've competed at these high levels, it's flat out amazing how close you can be to other riders over the course of 50KM or more. There's always the random chance effect and to a large extent, that's part of the fun of racing. You "gamble". You put forth your best guess as to what gear you need and how to approach it, and you hope to come on top. After a while, there's a lot less "chance" to it, but through that process, you try to get everything on your side as much as possible. The right tires, the right jersey, the right hydration mix, the correct shock settings, and so on. Each tiny little thing that you can control gets you a little ahead and saves you a little time or makes you able to perform faster. There is a limit to what we can control, but the more you can control everything, the more you can understand your performance and how to get faster.



> BTW here is my weapon for shorter events that has remote lockout for both front and rear suspensions:
> View attachment 1335701


Looks like a good bike for it.

Could I see an endurance XC race where you don't "need" a lockout? Sure, but by the same token, there are enough that would have long road/smooth segments that it would be a mistake to sell an XC race bike without one, no matter what that XC race purpose is. I don't see a lot of difference in an XCM bike, only that I like slightly beefier tires that are more durable for longer distances. For some people, a "trail" bike may be better for them to do an XCM event on.


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## wfl3 (Dec 30, 2003)

So because some people don't care for lockouts means they would be better suited racing on a trail bike?

To be fair I did race pretty much on a "trail" bike most of the last year. ;-)


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## Giosh63 (May 27, 2020)

*How dos it ride with such a short stack?*



Igor Gordienko said:


> I've asked Unno about it. Here is the answer: "Honestly you can't go wrong with any, the more offset a bit more agile, the less the more stable, so definitely a bit what you would prefer."
> 
> Our bikes have different rake (and trail), 51mm works well for me. Here is trail comparison for some bikes


Hello Igor, first of all compliments for the gorgeous bike! I'm really interested in the Horn. However I have several questions, if you can help me:
- How you feel the bike downhill with such a low stack on descends? Surely climbing the posture is aggressive, really racing, but this risks to be paid on descends. The Horn actually if the project with the lowest stack, followed by the Mondraker (still a Cesar's design). I saw one of the 2 you assembled is equipped with a gemini, which with -12 further reduces the handlebar heigh.
- You wrote it rides similar to a Fourstroke. Which ate the different, a part the weight?
- I plan to install a Ocho which will reduce the trail to 90mm, and I'm curious to know the difference you experience on between the 2 different build having both different rake/offset.
- Still don't understand why Unno does not install a remote. The cinematic can be as good as you want but there will always be a case when a lock is required, and hanging down to close it during a race is not the top. At least giving the user the choice to install it or not... I think that marketing wise precludes some sales, even if it is an exclusive project and the numbers are limited.

Thank you!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

YouTube "Dream Build" (Gee Milner) coming up today


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## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

Looking good !


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Igor,
How did you mount your Fox shock in the rear? What hardware is required...it looks non-standard. Thanks!

Edit: disregard, UNNO says custom hardware required in rear eyelet.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

How's the longer term review? Any issues with frame...cracks, etc? Friend of mine reports developing crack at seattube and downtube right above bb...drive side crank rubbing on chainstay (maybe because of crack)?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Yeah, that's helpful.

Um, Mods?


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## Wurstkopf (May 13, 2021)

Is the bike still in use/allowed to be used by Unno? Rumor has it, the bike is re-done after major issues with cracks in the carbon. I even had a broken one in my own hands.


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