# Entertaining Klein Discussion



## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=265726


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Shayne, your knowledge of Kleins is weak


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Well Compared To Carsten...*

and a few others from the old Yahoo group it is


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Its hard deciphering that guy's blather. Hope you can shut him down.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

rain fire and lay waste..


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

*I'm in tears . . .*

This IS pretty funny.

Jeeze, I thought Bontragers were the topic of the day . . . :thumbsup:

And YES . . . I hadda put something in that thread . . . I just hadda . . .


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

anybody think he'll reply? im bettin no.....


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

*I keeed I keeed!*

I keeed I keeed! (in my best "Triumph the insult dog" voice)


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

What a dick.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

So did I guess right? Its the cable routing that identifies the true adroit frame isn't it ?


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## 993rs (Dec 31, 2005)

CRAZY FRED, the new expression here on the desk. As in "hey, don't be all crazy fred with me, you tool."


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

Another internet toughguy oozes to the surface...


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> So did I guess right? Its the cable routing that identifies the true adroit frame isn't it ?


it's the 2" down tube with welded-on cable inlets and outlets further up. the Attitude down tube is 1 7/8" thick and has dimpled inlets and the outlets close to the bb shell. but don't tell Fred 

Carsten


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

WTB-rider said:


> Another internet toughguy oozes to the surface...


Haha! Yeah, gotta love those forum tough guys.


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## MrOrange (Jun 21, 2004)

*mmmm dimples.*

They look like boobies.

Did I say that?

Man, Iam I on a weird streak _today_ . . .

Nobody likes the gun-toting reference?

Kinda Gary Klein lore in disquise . . . it's widely rumored that he would carry heat when he went on long rides . . . .


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## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

He called you "punk nuts".
I wouldn't take that kind of insult.


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## Archangel (Jan 15, 2004)

Ha! Funny dude that Fred...  
It seems that most people's (who think they know about Kleins) first reactions are dismay and denial when they learn that the most of the 1996 Adroits were in fact Attitude frames.

I remember reading somewhere that most of the '96 frames were actually '95 Attitude surplus frames, repainted as Adroits. Guess the real 1996 Adroits are very very scarce (or they might be '95 frames as well ?). Carsten, is your '96 Adroit made in '95 or '96 ?

In fact, when you think about it, what a fraud it was back then! The Adroit cost much more than the Attitude and still the buyer got essentially the same bike, especially if he/she ordered it with a suspension fork. Oh, you paid hundreds more for a sticker on a top tube ? Sweet.  

I'd love to own a real Adroit (owned '97 Adroit frame = Attitude) but for now I just have to settle for two Pre-Trek Attitudes...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*a candid question:*

so what's the deal w/ klein? some love it. some don't care. i am not so keen on buying an old aluminum bike just cause aluminum tends to change it's properties w/ time. 
they look like monster technical steep trail bikes. what's the full scope?


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

*pardon my Klein ignorance*

Is there a difference in the ride of the 2 frames or is it the BLING factor of the higher model?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*IHMO, No*

Honestly I can't tell the difference in the ride of same generation Attitude or Adroit. The Adroit is a _tad_ lighter and theoretically stiffer. The Attitude is monsterously stiff to start with. Great for a race bike but not a good all the time ride for me (Yes, I know plenty of you disagree with me there  ). Easily the stiffest rear end and BB area on any mtb I've ever ridden.
Now on the road its a different story. My Q-Pro is a good blend of stiffness and compliance. I can ride that all day. A world of difference comming from the C-dale 2.8 frame I raced before that. That still is one of the stiffest road frames ever made. Great for crits and shorter road races but brutal for more than 4 hour rides...kinda like an Attitude/Adroit  .


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## Archangel (Jan 15, 2004)

colker1 said:


> so what's the deal w/ klein?


Fine craftsmanship, blazing paintjobs (like storm & linear fades), innovative features (mostly not very user-friendly), big fat tubes, etc.
My first encounter with Klein was in 1992 when I rode my friend's new Attitude and I have loved them ever since. :thumbsup:


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*I Would Hazzard To Guess...*

That the vast majority of (vintage) Kleins bought today are never going to be ridden more than around the block. They could be made from paper mache from a durability standpoint. Its all about the looks, the name and the paint.

Same as the infatuation and over-inflation of the Fat Chance stuff. You can read that 'What's the deal with Fat Chance Frames' thread and substitute Klein for Fat.

I'd love to get my hands on another Klein but even most of the 'daily rider' quality bikes sell for stupid money.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Shayne said:


> That the vast majority of (vintage) Kleins bought today are never going to be ridden more than around the block. They could be made from paper mache from a durability standpoint. Its all about the looks, the name and the paint.
> 
> Same as the infatuation and over-inflation of the Fat Chance stuff. You can read that 'What's the deal with Fat Chance Frames' thread and substitute Klein for Fat.
> 
> I'd love to get my hands on another Klein but even most of the 'daily rider' quality bikes sell for stupid money.


but what is supposed to be it's strongest points? quick handling? stability on steep drops? weight distribution?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

CRAZY FRED said:


> Hook,line and sinker. That thread was way to easy.Wow what a bunch of light weight's,at least the boys over at the Turner forum can keep me on my toes..Shanye baby just was having a little fun bro,try to pick up the pieces and move on.I can't belive nobody has any comments on that picture of Penguin,WOW I'll give em this he's got balls going out in public looking like that.Group rides with him must be colorful at best.Wouldn't bother me,if he ever was to show up on one of my group rides with my crew he'd be sooooo far in the back of the pack we would never have to see him anyway. In the back no doubt saying You want me to ride down what? You just just got up what? Did they really just drop off of that? You want me to ride up and over this? HaHa HaHa.NEXT................CF...


ok. we suppose you can ride fast and hard but you miss writting skills; punctuation, grammar, proper construction of sentences.. reading your post is just painfull.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Quick Handling and Power Transfer/Efficiency*

Those are the qualities I'd identify with the top end Kleins.
I wouldn't really call them 'stable' per say.
Good climbing frames and fair at decending, although those can be subject to specific rider set-up


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## singletracktourist (Jul 27, 2005)

> Its guys like me that are bangen the wifes of geeks like you,while your at some stuffy office using your proper construction of sentences,puntuation,and of course can't forget grammer.HaHa GEEK BTW do you know where,wear,were,your wife is ? CF


Any woman that has known you for more than 2 minutes and has heard you talk, that actually chooses to go near you willingly, is all yours. You can have her.

You're really lame, dude. Face the facts and start being a real man. How many people do you need to hear it from before it finally sets in?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

*No Trolls.*

You're not welcome here Fred.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Shayne, have to agree with you about stiffness of the bikes and paper-mache. My regular ride is a '96 Attitude but if I buy another one, it won't be abused in quite the same way. The Adroits that I rode weren't that different than the Attitudes but I'm not sure I had an adequate opportunity to notice the difference.

After I broke my 1990 Attitude, I had a backfire-colored Adroit on order but Klein was waaaaaayyyy behind on production and come late May of 1991, had no idea when they would be producing them. I was living in northern Minnesota and our riding season was short, so I jumped on the offer a backfire '91 Attitude they had in my size, in stock, shipping that afternoon. Sometimes (looking back through the haze of the years) I wished I had waited but at the time, it was the right decision.

As for Freddy-boy, Have a nice day...somewhere else.

P. Guin


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

CRAZY FRED said:


> Besides we are talking about woman not...HuH what are you guys calling it now a days HuH oh ya life partners..I hope post # 20 contain's more depth than #19 did..Next..I think I'll make sure the guys hold down the fort for a while,I need to to get out and ride,,,Gee what bike should I ride today Hummm, I' think I'll take the Klein seems fitting for this day.


did you miss school? jeez. you are basically illiterate.. call social services and get some help.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> You're not welcome here Fred.


maybe we could use a village idiot.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Shayne said:


> Those are the qualities I'd identify with the top end Kleins.
> I wouldn't really call them 'stable' per say.
> Good climbing frames and fair at decending, although those can be subject to specific rider set-up


explosive climbing on technical terrain. that's what i thought.. i am curious about it's ride while going down the same chutes.


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## erol/frost (Jan 3, 2004)

MrOrange said:


> They look like boobies.
> 
> Did I say that?
> 
> ...


You mean he was packin` a nine mil?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Very Rider Dependant*



colker1 said:


> explosive climbing on technical terrain. that's what i thought.. i am curious about it's ride while going down the same chutes.


If you try to sit on the bike and go down you're going to get bucked off in a hurry.
You've gotta get back off the saddle and use quite a bit of 'body' suspension. This is no long wheelbase, slack angle barcalounger like a lot of the bikes offered now days.

Again, my opinion. Quite a few others around here have logged a lot more time on them than I.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> explosive climbing on technical terrain. that's what i thought.. i am curious about it's ride while going down the same chutes.


A few years ago I got to ride an Attitude with the big aluminum fork and I noticed similar things, that they were great on technical climbs. Probably the best I'd ever ridden for that.

Going down it was fine. Its wasnt a flimsy ride by any means, but that huge aluminum fork actually seemed to take the sharp/hard blows really nicely. It seemed to almost soak them up contrary to what one might think. I'd need more time on it to really give it an accurate description, but it rode good. Very light and very stiff. And I mean really, vertical compliance from any double triangle frame is very minimal. We're talking fractions of a millimeter for a rear triangle. Tires, seatpost, chamois, saddle, wheels all flex vertically more than a frame.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Shayne said:


> If you try to sit on the bike and go down you're going to get bucked off in a hurry.
> You've gotta get back off the saddle and use quite a bit of 'body' suspension. This is no long wheelbase, slack angle barcalounger like a lot of the bikes offered now days.
> 
> Again, my opinion. Quite a few others around here have logged a lot more time on them than I.


some early klein tests i read mentioned 72º seat angles and 70+º head angles. those coupled w/ a short wheelbase tell me it could be a fast but highly controllable bike in tight and steep terrain.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I picked the top frame myself because it has the cantilever cable housing stop on the rear stays. Just can't see Klein removing that one feature for a 1996 production run of a model that's being discontinued as a seperate distinctive frame because Shimano XTR and Deore XT V-brakes just became available.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

They both have the cable stop. Its just hard to see in the second pic.
I had a hard time comming up with pics of them in the same colour and the same forks.
Yes, you're right. The top one is the 'true' Adroit. The easiest way to tell is the downtube cable stops.


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Coming to the party late*



Shayne said:


> The easiest way to tell is the downtube cable stops.


Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag - I looked forever and couldn't tell which was which.

Anyway the reason I'm posting is that the internal cable routing has always been something I admire and yet think it's over engineering in the same breath.

How are the entrance/exit holes made? Is the aluminum formed on a jig (sorry for the laymen terms) ?

And if so did the equipment make it from Chehalis to Waterloo (my guess not)

Also this alone seems appropriate for the price difference - how many attempts at forming the holes actually made it to production? was there a failure rate?

For what it's worth I think hydro forming is the Shiznit.

Did I say Shiznits?


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## holden (Jul 27, 2004)

Shayne said:


> That the vast majority of (vintage) Kleins bought today are never going to be ridden more than around the block ... Its all about the looks, the name and the paint.


So true. I have three Attitudes; 90, 93, 95. My 90 and 93 are near new and as Shayne says, they don't get ridden much. I'd ride them more but I'm a stickler for restoration and I find Kleins diffcult because the gradient paint schemes are quite expensive and challenging to touch-up, especially at the blends. With the early MC1 rigid forks, cracking is also an issue (so I've been told).

In contrast, the bike I ride the most is a basic black steel Race Lite; simpler to repair and restore if needed.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Wow, I've seen some real wild hairs, but this guy took the cake. Innocent, albeit poorly written, question. Gets a non confrontational answer, and launchs into WW3. WTF? That was so out of left field, I found myself glued to the thread till it ran it's course.....


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## CdaleTony (Jun 21, 2005)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Wow, I've seen some real wild hairs, but this guy took the cake. Innocent, albeit poorly written, question. Gets a non confrontational answer, and launchs into WW3. WTF? That was so out of left field, I found myself glued to the thread till it ran it's course.....


Grab a bag of popcorn....Too much time on my hands...
But I would love a nice Nightstorm Adroit........


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> maybe we could use a village idiot.


Nah.

I see no reason to have someone around who is nothing but rude and insults others and provides nothing else to the VRC.

D8's our token 'abrasive' guy, anyway.  Except he knows his VRC MTB and is helpful. :thumbsup:


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

What the hell about Kleins attracts the Trolls?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

At least he didn't go on about klein being innovative or something when it comes to aluminium. Ya know, the kinds that tout out about how gary invented and patented fat tubed aluminium frames (HE did sue over it anyways, but lost to cannondale when they produced Roger Durham who brought his neice's bike frame into court with him... Roger was welding fat tubed aluminium frames for her and her friends to ride around the UCLA campus in the 1970s) or that goofy ZR9000 aluminium claim.


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## j333ssa (Oct 12, 2004)

Sure right about the Attitude being probably the stiffest most unrelenting ride Ive ever experienced. Talk about saw wrists even after some single tracking. Wonderful climber though by all means.


Selling mine by the way to make room for other projects if anyones keen.


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

j333ssa said:


> Selling mine by the way to make room for other projects if anyones keen.


You have the 19 with a no-rise, correct?
What size is that no-rise???


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## j333ssa (Oct 12, 2004)

Hi Jason

Have a look here:

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=10388

I would only sell the fuselage complete Im afraid.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

j333ssa said:


> Hi Jason
> 
> I would only sell the fuselage complete Im afraid.


Kleinatics call the frame/bar the fuselage? How cool is that


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## j333ssa (Oct 12, 2004)

..cos thats how Klein's they were marketted as having "fuselages"!


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## Klein Freak (Jan 30, 2004)

PM me, or send me an IM (my AIM is listed in my profile) - I am interested in that 'tude.



> I would only sell the fuselage complete Im afraid.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

That's because the headsets were called... what was it, airheads or something? Because Gary used those aircraft landing gear thrust bearings.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

j333ssa said:


> ..cos thats how Klein's they were marketted as having "fuselages"!


they are not mere frames.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

colker1 said:


> so what's the deal w/ klein?


This response is a bit late as I've been out on a 11-day long trail in the rainforests of Fiordlands in New Zealand, saw a few people for two days and the other 9...all alone. I'm happy about that. The world was happy about that too 

There are plenty of great bikes out there but to me the Kleins were the most responsive bikes I've ever ridden. When I was looking to buy my first high-end bike, I tried a few dozen bikes. Within 30 seconds of riding a Klein, I knew I had found what I wanted. No, I wasn't sold on the paint (I think it was a blue bike I rode, not sure), big tubes, or the name (at the time I wasn't familiar with them). Rode one at Tailwind Bike Shoppe in Madison WI (few people here have expressed opinions about Laurence Gust in the past). I knew it was for me.

They are very stiff but don't wear me out. I can ride hard terrain for 11 hours and not feel beat up at the end of the day but other do get pounded by them. The big forks seem like they should hurt but they do exactly what I wanted them to do and go right where I want. They climb(ed) like nobody's business and to me, they feel right. I'm not saying they are for everybody but they suit me. I am hooked on them but got to that state of being hooked because of, to me, what is the perfection of the ride. The 1990 Attitude is my choice as the ultimate bike. I know that the forks on these weren't as durable as later models but that model rode better than any other before or since, IMHO, of course.

If given my choice of a fillet-brazed Ritchey, a Steve Potts, Cunningham or (fill in other bike), I'd take a vintage Klein.

Penguin


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## Lloyd395 (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm a bit shocked about the enthusiasm regarding Klein these days! 
Didn't think there was that much interest. Nice to see there is though!


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

Carsten said:


> it's the 2" down tube with welded-on cable inlets and outlets further up. the Attitude down tube is 1 7/8" thick and has dimpled inlets and the outlets close to the bb shell. but don't tell Fred
> 
> Carsten


Carsten,No disrespect meant in that other thread. I am just now reading this thread. I respect you and i think you know more about kleins than i do. I respect everything you say. But no, It's a 1 7/8 inch adroit downtube and the attitude is 1 3/4. maybe that is what written documentation is reciting but these are closer to the actual measurements.
Thankyou!! for pointing out the difference on the inlets/outlets, i hadn't noticed that before.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

jasonwa2 said:


> Carsten,No disrespect meant in that other thread. I am just now reading this thread. I respect you and i think you know more about kleins than i do. I respect everything you say. But no, It's a 1 7/8 inch adroit downtube and the attitude is 1 3/4. maybe that is what written documentation is reciting but these are closer to the actual measurements.
> Thankyou!! for pointing out the difference on the inlets/outlets, i hadn't noticed that before.


hmm, not that it matters much but according to my calipers the diameter of the Adroit DT is 51-52mm, MC2 Attitude and Pulse 48mm, Rascal (and thus 1992 and older MC1 Attitudes), Pinnacle, Fervor 42mm. 1" is 25.4mm thus that's 2" for the Adroit, a tad more than 1 7/8" for the 'tude and something like 1 2/3" for the others, isn't it?

Carsten


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

> pinguwin said:
> 
> 
> > The 1990 Attitude is my choice as the ultimate bike. I know that the forks on these weren't as durable as later models but that model rode better than any other before or since, IMHO, of course.


I would have to agree with you at this very moment.
My 90 attitude full rigid is my fastest bike. It's also my ugliest.
It was a repaint. I bought the bike for its 120mm stem only and didnt care what was going to happen to it. I had been looking for that stem for years.Years!
but the bike ran so good, i couldnt rape it from its stem.
It's just flat awesome!I It could be the gearing,wheels,tires,pressure though so i am experimenting.


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

Carsten said:


> hmm, not that it matters much but according to my calipers the diameter of the Adroit DT is 51-52mm, MC2 Attitude and Pulse 48mm, Rascal (and thus 1992 and older MC1 Attitudes), Pinnacle, Fervor 42mm. 1" is 25.4mm thus that's 2" for the Adroit, a tad more than 1 7/8" for the 'tude and something like 1 2/3" for the others, isn't it?
> 
> Carsten


No adroit has a 2 inch down tube. they barely have a 1 7/8.
the measurement is even shy of 1 7/8.
The measurement leans less than 1 7/8, not more than 1 7/8.

the big 'tudes(93-96) downtubes were 1 3/4 and the smaller 'tudes(90-92) were 1 5/8.


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## alohachiimoku (Apr 7, 2006)

ok, I just measured mine. 50.8mm which is exact 2''.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm going to agree with those folks that say the Adroits had a 2" downtube. 

Perhaps some Adroits had a smaller downtube might have been some of the later ones which were essentially rebranded Attitudes (which has been discussed in the last few days of real vs. pseudo-Adroits), but that is speculation.

Penguin


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

pinguwin said:


> I'm going to agree with those folks that say the Adroits had a 2" downtube.
> 
> Perhaps some Adroits had a smaller downtube might have been some of the later ones which were essentially rebranded Attitudes (which has been discussed in the last few days of real vs. pseudo-Adroits), but that is speculation.
> 
> Penguin


I do not own any of the "questionable" 96 adroits.
All the adroits have the exact same size tubing from 92 to 95.
the tubing did change but not the size.
like i said in the other thread, I'm probably the only person that feels this way about this measurement and i am comfortable with that.

I am positive i feel differently about other measurements as well.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

jasonwa2 said:


> I do not own any of the "questionable" 96 adroits.
> All the adroits have the exact same size tubing from 92 to 95.
> the tubing did change but not the size.
> like i said in the other thread, I'm probably the only person that feels this way about this measurement and i am comfortable with that.
> ...


why speculate or "feel" when you can just measure it?

the size did not change from 1991 to 1995 but it changed for the 1996 model year when some continued to get the 2" DT and some the 1 7/8" Attitude DT.

Carsten


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*I'm "Feeling" The Need For A Picture To Emphasize This*



Carsten said:


> why speculate or "feel" when you can just measure it?
> 
> the size did not change from 1991 to 1995 but it changed for the 1996 model year when some continued to get the 2" DT and some the 1 7/8" Attitude DT.
> 
> Carsten


I'm "Feeling" the need for a picture to emphasize this :thumbsup:


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## dick (Dec 13, 2006)

Carsten said:


> why speculate or "feel" when you can just measure it?


It's less work.


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## newsboymerlin (Jan 7, 2005)

some more info...

klein catalogue from 1993:
adroit...









attitude...









mba 1991/10 klein adroit report:









a.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

One discrepancy/error in the MBA article says that the Attitude has a 1.75/1.5 (down/seat tube measurement). It doesn't have that size seat tube. Carsten, do any Attitudes have a 1.75" downtube or not? My 'Tudes are at home and not measurable at the moment.

'guin


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> One discrepancy/error in the MBA article says that the Attitude has a 1.75/1.5 (down/seat tube measurement). It doesn't have that size seat tube. Carsten, do any Attitudes have a 1.75" downtube or not? My 'Tudes are at home and not measurable at the moment.
> 
> 'guin


Adroit 1991-1996 DT 51mm (2") ST 34.9mm (1 3/8") 31.6mm seat post

however, the first Adroits in 1991 used 27.2mm seat posts but the seat tube was 1 3/8" and tapered down to 1 1/4" below the top tube. and the welded fork... would love to have one of those

some 1996 Adroits have the 48mm Attitude downtube.

Attitude 1990-1992 DT 42mm (1.66"?) ST 31.8mm (1 1/4") 27.2mm seat post

Attitude 1993-1998 DT 48mm (1 7/8" or 1 3/4" who cares) ST 34.9mm (1 3/8") 31.6mm seat post

non-metric measurement systems suck 

Carsten


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2007)

*mine is...*



Shayne said:


> I'm "Feeling" the need for a picture to emphasize this :thumbsup:


 ...larger than yours...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

this quarrel over the adroit's real downtube size is the most surreal i have witnessed on the internet.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2007)

colker1 said:


> this quarrel over the adroit's real downtube size is the most surreal i have witnessed on the internet.


yes, it's surreal and wasting bandwidth (if you read it). the most surreal? certainly not. i'm trying to answer questions and put things right if i can. facts vs. fiction/speculation in general, has nothing to do with bikes. if it's so easy to tell them apart like in this case i'd have a hard time to not do it.

Carsten


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

This is why I'm not a Klein owner.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

jasonwa2 said:


> No adroit has a 2 inch down tube. they barely have a 1 7/8.
> the measurement is even shy of 1 7/8.
> The measurement leans less than 1 7/8, not more than 1 7/8.
> 
> the big 'tudes(93-96) downtubes were 1 3/4 and the smaller 'tudes(90-92) were 1 5/8.


Bzzzzzt <blink>*WRONG !!!*</blink> But thanks for playing...

The catalogs above pretty much provide concrete evidence to just how thoroughly wrong you are in fact, unless you plan to accuse them of being forgeries, and MBA being in on this 2" downtube conspiracy also.


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## Lloyd395 (Dec 14, 2004)

I hope you factored in paint thickness !!!! as long as were getting specific:thumbsup:


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Bzzzzzt <blink>*WRONG !!!*</blink> But thanks for playing...
> 
> The catalogs above pretty much provide concrete evidence to just how thoroughly wrong you are in fact, unless you plan to accuse them of being forgeries, and MBA being in on this 2" downtube conspiracy also.


actually the concrete evidence was between carstens calipers if you know how to read.
You might need to up the perscription in those glasses.
maybe try a magnifying glass up to the monitor...it might help.

thankyou!


> Attitude 1993-1998 DT 48mm (1 7/8"


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

jasonwa2 said:


> actually the concrete evidence was between carstens calipers if you know how to read.
> You might need to up the perscription in those glasses.
> maybe try a magnifying glass up to the monitor...it might help.
> 
> thankyou!


Yeah, and that's an ADROIT frame he took those calipers to, or are you such a complete moron that you cannot keep track of these things without your hand being held ?!? Or the fact that he posted the closeup of an ADROIT frame with its 2" diameter downtube, after the catalogs were posted which clearly indicate the downtube diameters for the Adroit and the Attitude and that you were wrong in your claims and "feelings" about the measurements.


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Yeah, and that's an ADROIT frame he took those calipers to, or are you such a complete moron that you cannot keep track of these things without your hand being held ?!? Or the fact that he posted the closeup of an ADROIT frame with its 2" diameter downtube, after the catalogs were posted which clearly indicate the downtube diameters for the Adroit and the Attitude and that you were wrong in your claims and "feelings" about the measurements.


Your brain is so fried, you can't even keep track of what is going on.
Plus where you went to highschool 48mm equals 2 inches.

When klein made the brochere, they decided that their
Adroit "1 7/8" "oversize downtube" didn't sound good enough. 
So they called it 2 inches. please forgive them. 
Klein knew that lots of people only like to hear their inch measurements in wholes or halfs.
The other 31 increments in an inch seem to be meaningless to them.


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

jasonwa2 said:


> Your brain is so fried, you can't even keep track of what is going on.
> Plus where you went to highschool 48mm equals 2 inches.
> 
> When klein made the brochere, they decided that their
> ...


1 inch = 25.4mm
2 inches = 50.8mm
Now, look at what number the zero is lined up with:









We miss tearing you apart nutsack-first in f88, Jason. But I understand, you're getting your fill here.


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

> Horus said:
> 
> 
> > Now, look at what number the zero is lined up with:
> ...


You haven't ever said a word to me before in F88. so how could you have been tearing me apart? Its cool to see you here in this forum because it might mean that you actually ride a bike. So what bike do you ride? What ever it is, you need to ride a whole lot more, that way you can rid yourself of all that belly fat and your man-boobs.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2007)

jasonwa2 said:


> You haven't ever said a word to me before in F88. so how could you have been tearing me apart? Its cool to see you here in this forum because it might mean that you actually ride a bike. So what bike do you ride? What ever it is, you need to ride a whole lot more, that way you can rid yourself of all that belly fat and your man-boobs.


ok guys, i'm out. not my style. Jason you are really wrong in this case and please spare me further dissapointments!

Carsten


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

it's more and more embarrassing by the thread count. although it's funny, in a pathethic kind of way.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Play nice guys.


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Play Nice?*



Rumpfy said:


> Play nice guys.


Why can't people hash out there differences and agree to disagree, or even vent a little?

I posted about the pre-trek (Chehalis) and trek Kleins and there perceived value differences and got no response - I felt it was a bit of a snub or even elitism.

If the Vintage homers don't take the time to respond to guests, why wouldn't I post with fire so I could get some kind of response?

Homerism doesn't promote outsider participation, It only creates a divide.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Why can't people hash out there differences and agree to disagree, or even vent a little?
> 
> I posted about the pre-trek (Chehalis) and trek Kleins and there perceived value differences and got no response - I felt it was a bit of a snub or even elitism.
> 
> ...


don't you think it's ridiculous being harsh and aggressive to people over milimeters of difference on a bicycle's downtube? one thing is to be a fanatic for details and another is to be ridiculously childish and borderline psychotic.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Crash_Burn said:


> Why can't people hash out there differences and agree to disagree, or even vent a little?
> 
> I posted about the pre-trek (Chehalis) and trek Kleins and there perceived value differences and got no response - I felt it was a bit of a snub or even elitism.
> 
> ...


They can discuss this topic until their blue in the face. Hash it out all they want, I don't care.

It's the personal attacks and name calling I'd like to see not get out of hand.


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

Millimeters? Don't you mean 1/8th (.125) of an inch?

Marketing has always been a weak spot for Gary, Correct? 

Deciding to call 1 7/8, 2 inches for marketing purposes is a very small detail but obviously it gets under some people skin.

He produces a very refined product and it's hard to communicate those values to the customer.

Thanks for responding to my post - maybe in an oblique way, but thank you none the less.

I would still like to hear about Gary's struggle to come into the fold of Trek and understand the comprises he has made to even keep producing his fine product as he does.


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm not comfortable with my man boobs or belly fat - but I don't know that I would take it as a personal attack. Not something I would say to somebody I don't know but typing and thinking can be two different animals.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Crash_Burn said:


> Deciding to call 1 7/8, 2 inches for marketing purposes is a very small detail but obviously it gets under some people skin.


I think the point that some are making is that 2" is 2" and some have furnished ample and irrefutable proof of that fact.

I see nothing wrong with arguing/discussing about millimeters but totally agree with others that personal attacks are not ok. Let's discuss it, demonstrate it, illustrate it, and go on until the cows come home, but nicely.

What is ironic is what started out about CrazyFred getting medieval on various folks is that Fred apologized in another thread yet it keeps on humming along.

'Guin


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

Crash_Burn said:


> I would still like to hear about Gary's struggle to come into the fold of Trek and understand the comprises he has made to even keep producing his fine product as he does.


Gary didn't make those compromises, Trek did. Gary doesn't produce a fine product, Trek does. Gary isn't involved. Hasn't been for a decade. It's a sticker and a paint job, on a Trek that looks kind of like a Klein.


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## Crash_Burn (Oct 8, 2004)

*Wow - Thats an eye opener*



Horus said:


> Gary didn't make those compromises, Trek did.


So your saying anything after 96 is really Trek badged Klein - Gary wasn't involved in the Palomino? wasn't that the straw that broke the camels back?

As a Vintage product how does a Trek Klein even hold it's value?

When I originally entered this fray my curiosty was to know if the frame building equipment stayed in Chehalis, I assume a frame builder is partially a slave to his/her equipment/supplies. It seems like Gary had refined his building technique to an art form and it would be very difficult to duplicate without the help of Gary. Kudos to Trek for doing as good as they have.

I'm not well versed at all on the history of Klein bikes and this thread has been educational and entertaining, thanks to all for your patience and understanding.


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## jasonwa2 (Oct 28, 2004)

Ok, so i got a new toy today. Yep, you guessed it. A caliper.
And not just a caliper, A digital caliper. Its really nice and can switch back and forth between inches and mm.

I was Wrong, WRONG, wrong as wrong can be.
My caliper does show a solid 2 inches.
I apologize to all who's sensibilities i offended.
I will do my best to not be an ambarrassment in the future and not to lead anyone to such disappointments.

D8, i apologize greatly to you and the words i used were way out of line.
That was wrong. I'm sorry...

however, I do not apologize to bouncin booby boy....

and colker, something i have noticed in the past with you....
is that everytime you get a chance to be a jerk, you never seem to pass
up the opportunity. I just thought i would let you know that i noticed...
and if i see you being a bully to somebody....i'm not going to let it slide.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*There Are A Couple Good Discussions*

There was a thread called 'what makes a klein a true klein' and there were 2 or 3 similar threads in the Trek forum.

Frame building remained in WA for a few years.

As for holding their value, I'd say its still up in the air. There are modern day Klein fanatics that swear by the current offerings as much as some of us older folks like the original Klein stuff. A lot of it is still too current. Up until ~2000 or so you could pick up a really nice MC1 or MC2 Attitude or Adroit for a few hundred, about 1/4 to 1/5 or what they regularly sell for today.
Trek Kleins still depreciate like cars and such. 'Last years model' generally goes for less than half retail. '03-'04 Attitude frames can be had for $200. Value could climb in 5 years or so. Stranger things have happened. 
Current Kleins are also produced in very large numbers which will probably hurt future value. Classic Kleins were also 'mass-produced' for the boutique brand they were. There's no shortage of them, its just colours that make some of them rare.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jasonwa2 said:


> Ok, so i got a new toy today. Yep, you guessed it. A caliper.
> And not just a caliper, A digital caliper. Its really nice and can switch back and forth between inches and mm.
> 
> I was Wrong, WRONG, wrong as wrong can be.
> ...


Jason.. you are an a$$. WHAT DID WE DO IN VRC TO DESERVE THIS IDIOT?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jasonwa2 said:


> You haven't ever said a word to me before in F88. so how could you have been tearing me apart? Its cool to see you here in this forum because it might mean that you actually ride a bike. So what bike do you ride? What ever it is, you need to ride a whole lot more, that way you can rid yourself of all that belly fat and your man-boobs.


see.. you can't read a ruler and you are insulting people left and right. you behaviour shows lack of respect for others and lack of ability to even count! 
you insulted me for no reason and i demand an APOLOGY. asap. 
i can be a jerk and i can bully but you haven't seen it yet.i usually have a high tolerance to stupid people but i can always make an exception for you.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

And placing you as a bigger jerk than me.... god... I'm so insulted.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

jasonwa2 said:


> and colker,
> if i see you being a bully to somebody....i'm not going to let it slide.


why don't you do something about it NOW? but first ask yourself: "does anyone like me in VRC? what am i doing in a place where i am jerked and bullied around and no one seems to care?" then you are taken by an epiphany: you should never post in that place again. you will keep the true downtube diameter numbers of Klein adroit to yourself.. those bullies and jerks in VRC mtbr will never have access to your vast knowledge of klein downtube diameters.


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## Horus (Oct 21, 2006)

colker1 said:


> Jason.. you are an a$$. WHAT DID WE DO IN VRC TO DESERVE THIS IDIOT?


I understand, colker1. He's a jackass. But, this is nothing. His psychotic ranting on f88 on the other hand, is the stuff of legend. Every argument of his was based largely on some small but critical element just beyond his understanding, and the next thing you know, he's dreamed up some massive theory based on this little bit of ignorance, which is backed up by going off foul-mouthed at everyone in sight. Sound familiar? In the end, it would turn out to be an evil liberal treehugger conspiracy behind everything, which we were all too stupid to comprehend or imagine.

...and now he's here. Tell em about Jesus, Jason! 

I'll tell Bill Murray you think his man boobs and pot belly are sexy.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

newsboymerlin said:


> Klein katologues snipped


Why is the seat pointing so far down on the top bike?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> And placing you as a bigger jerk than me.... god... I'm so insulted.


LOL! Don't anger D8!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Jason, Colker...nice work. Thread is over.


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