# IRD/Tange Sliders?



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I was surfing around last night and found these: https://www.interlocracing.com/frame_dropouts.html










"Sliding Dropouts 
New for 2009! A robust set of sliding dropouts developed with Tange Design. Flanged stainless steel arrow head shape. Because it's stainless steel so you don't have to paint the sliding surface. Includes integrated eyelets for fenders/racks.The dropout pieces are 7075 T6 aluminum feature a derailleur hanger and disc brake mount. An affordable alternative. (Not available in stores. Established frame builders can call order this from The Merry Sales. Co.) "

Anybody tried these yet?

How's the quality?

How's the price?


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Peter,

I gotta order from them on Monday...I'll get the skinny.

rody


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Interesting*

I had an account with Merry Sales 6 or 7 years ago, and finally gave up on them in disgust, as it was pretty clear they couldn't do anything right. Maybe they've gotten better since then. Those certainly look nice (if very derivative of what Mark makes), though I prefer the slot/tab type drops to the hooded variety.

Rody, let us know what you think when you get 'em, eh?

-Walt


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Walt,

I doubt I'll be ordering the sliders...just getting the info for the board. I prefer the tabl style over hoods for longevity reasons.

Actually, I'm trying to chase down a couple sets of Quasi Moto 650b tires as QBP and Kirk have been out for ages, looking like Merry Sales is the last distributer with a bunch.

rody


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Rody said:


> Walt,
> 
> I doubt I'll be ordering the sliders...just getting the info for the board. I prefer the tabl style over hoods for longevity reasons.
> 
> rody


Can you clarify on the longevity issue? I like the tab style too. That is almost all my own dropouts have tabs. I have had great luck though using the wright style drop out or hooded type. Especially the paragon type that give a lot of surface area to build up a fillet or make a full circumference TIG weld. Although I don't use them a lot they always seemed to me to be a great engineering solution.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I would prefer the hood style, but think that the hood should be offset all the way to the inside. With sliders, the stay meet the DO all the way inboard. I tend not to use the hoods because of the cost more than any other reason.

Get back with the scoop Rody!


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Ugh... those are going to fail at the weld over and over again....


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Schmitty said:


> Ugh... those are going to fail at the weld over and over again....


hoh?


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

pvd said:


> I would prefer the hood style, but think that the hood should be offset all the way to the inside.


As I understand it back when the Breezer dropouts appeared one of the reasons to have them hooded the way they were was to spread the seatstays for clearance. Of course back then they were for MTBs and no one used them for road bikes. Whether or not it makes a difference who knows.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Actually...

I was over at Joe Breeze's house about four days ago talking about bike design. We both agreed that the Breezer (hooded) drop out allowed the tube and dropout to be as structurally strong as possible. No mention of clearances. He also mentioned where he got the idea from. It's very interesting when you hear the real story behind things.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> Ugh... those are going to fail at the weld over and over again....


I don't believe they will. I have used hooded drops for quite some time and had great luck with them. the famous wright brothers also, as far as I know used this design and from an engineering perspective they should be a whole lot more resistant to failure than a tab type. Saying this is like saying main frame tube joints fail.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles 
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

pvd said:


> Actually...
> 
> I was over at Joe Breeze's house about four days ago talking about bike design. We both agreed that the Breezer (hooded) drop out allowed the tube and dropout to be as structurally strong as possible. No mention of clearances. He also mentioned where he got the idea from. It's very interesting when you hear the real story behind things.


The folks who were selling them and putting them on bikes back in the day were not Joe, so I'll guess they added some more "marketing" to the things. The other thing I head at the time was it was for ease and speed of production because they could be easily tig welded instead of brazed. Did he mention anything about that? So where did he say he got the idea from?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand I despise people who blatantly rip-off the hard work of others, but then again there is some glaring holes in Marks product range that are equally annoying, such as the hole that this product fills - a flanged slider designed specifically for steel stays and not simply one made from steel using the exact same design as that for Ti.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*I love Mark...*

..but I agree. The steel hooded sliders (as well as most of the other hooded steel drops) are a bad joke - I usually machine half the hoods off, and it's hard to make them look nice.

He is usually pretty responsive to good ideas, though. They are often so far behind keeping up with demand that I think he can't spare a lot of attention for new ideas.

BTW, I'm bugging him to do a post-mount slider. Everyone should email him and ask for them...ISO is SO 1999.

-Walt



Thylacine said:


> I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand I despise people who blatantly rip-off the hard work of others, but then again there is some glaring holes in Marks product range that are equally annoying, such as the hole that this product fills - a flanged slider designed specifically for steel stays and not simply one made from steel using the exact same design as that for Ti.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

What I really want is some Life chainstays without the swaged end....paired to a dropout designed specifically for them.

With disc brakes, the old standard of 10-13mm diameter at the end of the stays just doesn't cut it anymore.

Walt, I don't like your chances with post-mount. He'd have to make a jig specifically for it as it adds another axis to his milling. If he's having trouble keeping up now, I'm not sure where he'd find the time for something like this!

Still, I hassled the crap out of him for the Ti flanged sliders, and even though he hates my guts now, look what we've got! Ti flanged sliders!


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Walt said:


> . I usually machine half the hoods off, and it's hard to make them look nice.
> -Walt


Keep in mind that although huge for TIG they do work well for fillet brazing. One of the issues with Joe Breeze's model was that the fillet would go down to almost nothing along the bottom and then be a potential failure point there. That much room allows for a full circumference weld/fillet which is nice.










All the pro's know how many people tell you they want something and then you build it and 5 pony up and the other 100 evaporate. I think mark is just keeping his inventory down, makes sense.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Thylacine said:


> Still, I hassled the crap out of him for the Ti flanged sliders, and even though he hates my guts now, look what we've got! Ti flanged sliders!


 having moots order 1000 pieces or so probally helped, too.......just sayin'. steve.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Rody said:


> Actually, I'm trying to chase down a couple sets of Quasi Moto 650b tires as QBP and Kirk have been out for ages, looking like Merry Sales is the last distributer with a bunch.
> rody


here you go, Rody: https://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/TR/TRTB/all/KP6501?page=1#KP6501 steve.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> I don't believe they will. I have used hooded drops for quite some time and had great luck with them. the famous wright brothers also, as far as I know used this design and from an engineering perspective they should be a whole lot more resistant to failure than a tab type. Saying this is like saying main frame tube joints fail.
> 
> Dave Bohm
> Bohemian Bicycles
> http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


These aren't the same hooded drops that anyone has been using. The hood with the extreme length will be trouble I think.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Schmitty said:


> These aren't the same hooded drops that anyone has been using. The hood with the extreme length will be trouble I think.


I'm still confused about what you are talking about.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

coconinocycles said:


> having Moots order 1000 pieces or so probably helped, too.......just sayin'. steve.


How does a proprietary part help the rest of us when we can't use or buy it?


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## Peter E (Feb 16, 2004)

does anyone know what they cost ?

How would you attach them to the stays ? Fillet braze them with silver. I'm a newbie and would like to stay away from making fillets out of silver.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Tig*

These are a TIG part. If you're not a TIG person, you'd want to use something else. Look at using an EBB or a tabbed dropout if you don't want to (or can't) weld.

-Walt



Peter E said:


> does anyone know what they cost ?
> 
> How would you attach them to the stays ? Fillet braze them with silver. I'm a newbie and would like to stay away from making fillets out of silver.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Dave,

I've worked with the KGB dropouts since they became available, and love the design when I can build a nice brass fillet around and between the stays.

When speaking to the the stainless cantilevered sliders,I prefer the tab style over the hooded flange simply because the ability to insert the tab and build the end of the stay with silver gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

Although I will tig on a hooded slider to a nice heavy stay, most of the modern pieces just do not have enough material in the dropout end to support many off road forces and still last long enough to pass on to your grandkids.

Just a personal preference...nothing more.

cheers,

rody


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## cyclomatt (Mar 4, 2008)

Walt said:


> These are a TIG part. If you're not a TIG person, you'd want to use something else. Look at using an EBB or a tabbed dropout if you don't want to (or can't) weld.
> 
> -Walt


Does it have to be TIGed because it is stainless or because it is hooded? I was looking at some hooded steel dropouts that I wanted to use but I only braze and MIG. I assumed that brazing a tube to a hood would be like brazing on a head tube. Meaning a butt weld of sorts.

I know that MIG is a dirty word here but I guess that if the dropout hood is thick enough (20 gauge+) I could MIG on some tabs in either Stainless steel or steel.:skep:

Matt.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Use the right tool.*

For heaven's sake, if you only braze, put away the MIG welder and just use the tabbed Paragons!

Seriously, brass/bronze won't stick to stainless well, and nickel silver or 45/56 aren't strong enough. Freddie Parr's fillet pro stuff *might* be appropriate, but I don't know enough about it to say for sure. So the bottom line is that if you're doing hoods and stainless, you need to be doing TIG. Luckily there are lots of non hooded and/or non-stainless options out there.

-Walt



cyclomatt said:


> Does it have to be TIGed because it is stainless or because it is hooded? I was looking at some hooded steel dropouts that I wanted to use but I only braze and MIG. I assumed that brazing a tube to a hood would be like brazing on a head tube. Meaning a butt weld of sorts.
> 
> I know that MIG is a dirty word here but I guess that if the dropout hood is thick enough (20 gauge+) I could MIG on some tabs in either Stainless steel or steel.:skep:
> 
> Matt.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks Steve, but this is the one I need...

https://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/TR/TRTB/KP/KP6401?page=1#KP6401

None in stock at BTI 

rody


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## merk (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand I despise people who blatantly rip-off the hard work of others, but then again there is some glaring holes in Marks product range that are equally annoying.


This is funny to me. As I recall Ground Up Designs came up with the very slider design Paragon uses.


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Ok guys, here's what the folks at Merry Sales have to say...

This is a flanged slider made of "cast or forged" stainless steel with rack and fender eylets and an aluminum plate geared dropout. These are made by Tange for IRD and the sales rep does not believe they worked with Paragon on the design. T

The projected cost is somewhere between 80 and 100 bucks, not settled on that yet, and should be available after January.

Seem to be nice folks who are willing to answer what they can and offered to get back with me on other queries.

cheers,

rody

BTW...got 4 Quasi-Motos on the way, only one left available for wholesale in the states


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

merk said:


> This is funny to me. As I recall Ground Up Designs came up with the very slider design Paragon uses.


Would be nice to see pics as I'm sure many here are unaware of that, including me.

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due.

Thanks for the info Rody.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Would be nice to see pics as I'm sure many here are unaware of that, including me.
> 
> I'm all for giving credit where credit is due.
> 
> Thanks for the info Rody.


??

http://www.dirtragmag.com/forums/showpost.php?p=113238&postcount=21


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

http://www.dirtragmag.com/gal/showphoto.php?photo=2102&cat=606

Looks similar to Paragon, but....not.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

NOT. Yes, those look somewhat similar, but without the solid keyed slider, they are really something else. Those drops key off the bolts. Marks key off a block.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Well f*ck me! Clearly because of that minute fact they are utterly different and bare no resemblance to each other _whatsover._

I swear, what would we do without you, Pete?


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Clearly because of that minute fact they are utterly different and bare no resemblance to each other _whatsover._


To me that "minute fact" is a fairly significant improvement...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Who's arguing it's not?


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## rustola (Jan 15, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Who's arguing it's not?


You are, by calling it a "minute fact".

Not making any claims about origin of the design, just seconding PVDs comment to the effect that the sliding block is a "key" (hehe pun intended) element of the paragon design.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Ok i have a question about these .
For TIG how strong is the weld going to be mating 4130 and stainless together , I always thought this was a problem .
Thanks for the help


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Evil4bc said:


> Ok i have a question about these .
> For TIG how strong is the weld going to be mating 4130 and stainless together , I always thought this was a problem .
> Thanks for the help


Not a problem, just have to use the right filler rod.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Not a problem, just have to use the right filler rod.
> 
> Dave Bohm
> Bohemian


Dave

What filler rod would I use ?
The guys at the local welding supply are useless their more concerned on who can grow a better handlebar mustache to look like Paul Sr. from American Chopper , pretty sure these guys dont weld ! It's hard enough getting straight Argon from them , let along getting the right filler rod for a job like this .


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I understand your frustrations on this. My weld shop are nice guys, they do know what argon is at least but they don't know anything about what I do.

Usually you want a filler to weld dissimilar steels. There are a bunch. Most notable a stainless with the designation E 312-17 Sometimes they call it missle weld or something like that.

I use 880T by weldmold company almost exclusively, but there is a minimum purchase I believe of 10lbs which oh, is like enough to weld 300 bikes or so. I love the stuff and was turned on to it by DFW at Anvil bicycles. I could sell you some if you can't find it anywhere else.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

pvd said:


> I'm still confused about what you are talking about.


The added length (leverage) of the sliders as compared to 'regular' do's. I think joining the stays to a hood as opposed to slotting the stays will create breakage issues.... at least in this design, but joint not being ideal to begin with. Some of the Surly drops have enough material/area to work around this.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

themanmonkey said:


> The folks who were selling them and putting them on bikes back in the day were not Joe, so I'll guess they added some more "marketing" to the things. The other thing I head at the time was it was for ease and speed of production because they could be easily tig welded instead of brazed. Did he mention anything about that? So where did he say he got the idea from?


+1 on this.

They were called KGB drop outs originally for Koski, Guy, Breeze. Koski had some fork drops that were really nice as well.

As far as the 'Wrights' having invented the hood style dropout, I think that's probably false but everyone and their mother likes to attribute things to the Wrights. Ease of production/manufacturing ,and less inventory to the builder are the only upsides I see to this design. For Ti, it allows a huge area to weld oversize stays needed on Ti frames... a workaround in my book.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

rustola said:


> You are, by calling it a "minute fact".
> 
> Not making any claims about origin of the design, just seconding PVDs comment to the effect that the sliding block is a "key" (hehe pun intended) element of the paragon design.


You're taking me out of context and don't seem to get the 'facetiousness' of my comment.

The question at hand is "who is the originator of the IP", not "whose design is better". This is not an engineering question.

Anyone have _any_ idea who came up with the slider design? Bueller?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> You're taking me out of context and don't seem to get the 'facetiousness' of my comment.
> 
> The question at hand is "who is the originator of the IP", not "whose design is better". This is not an engineering question.
> 
> Anyone have _any_ idea who came up with the slider design? Bueller?


I have been doing my own slider type drop-outs for a few years longer than Paragon. I got the design drawings from Rohloff who had them a few years before that. So, the first time I saw them was from Rohloff but that may not be the first case.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> +1 on this.
> 
> They were called KGB drop outs originally for Koski, Guy, Breeze. Koski had some fork drops that were really nice as well.
> 
> As far as the 'Wrights' having invented the hood style dropout, I think that's probably false but everyone and their mother likes to attribute things to the Wrights. Ease of production/manufacturing ,and less inventory to the builder are the only upsides I see to this design. For Ti, it allows a huge area to weld oversize stays needed on Ti frames... a workaround in my book.


I am sorry Schmitty but I disagree with you. I don't know if the Wrights were the first ones, Most likely not as there were hundreds and hundreds of outfits in the US at that time. It was probably copied.

As far as upsides. I see many and almost no downsides. I believe it to be a superior design in many ways. Add ease of manufacturing and less inventory and you have a great piece. You haven't explained your engineering thoughts but PVD and many others still think this is a great engineering solution.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

The Breeze/Wright/Whatever dropouts are awesome. Never ever seen one fail, the derailleur hanger is super tough, AND they're the lightest dropouts still available as low as 70g a pair.

Only downside is that they're not a dedicated disc dropout.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey, has anyone got any of these or has used them yet? Got a build that calls for sliders and I'd rather not use the braze-in/on types.


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

*long winded*



pvd said:


> NOT. Yes, those look somewhat similar, but without the solid keyed slider, they are really something else. Those drops key off the bolts. Marks key off a block.


Ground up has some old pics 2003 or so of his original sliders. The contours and profile of both the steel and aluminum parts were uncannily similar. The interface at the bolts was different with the paragons because that was the improvement paragon added after admittedly being "inspired" by the ground up sliders. I mentioned this to both paragon and ground up at NAMBLA last year and everyone was on the same page with who inspired who and who improved what and all that jazz. When I first saw the paragon sliders I thought "wow this is a rip off of those ground up sliding dropout things" but there is a lot of ebb and flow in this industry/playground. Nobody has sliders patented so its sort of open source free for all. Of course those IRD dropouts are inspired by the paragon ones, but that's OK. I like the hood style cuz I like tig welding. Not many vehicles out there are welded all over at all attachment points, then brazed where the axle attaches but bikes are special. Those deda double bend chainstays are plenty beefy on the end to weld. Also for s&g check out courage's new dropouts. Silly and Cool..


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Rampant theft seems to legitimize theft.

Why pay $180 for a rip-off when you can pay $100 for one?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

So what's the answer, Steve? Do I only offer frames with EBB's as a protest?

rock + hard place.


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## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

I guess if I had my own design ripped off I would feel diffent about the subject.

Wade I do have one question. Why don't you think Courage dropout is silly. If you couldn't tell I like the design, but it does remind me of Vanilla's SpeedVegan design.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

You're a designer with access to CAD. I know that you can do something better than what's available. With no mark-up, you'll be cost-competitive with those other sources. I say go in-house.

Until then, just hold your nose.



Thylacine said:


> So what's the answer, Steve? Do I only offer frames with EBB's as a protest?
> 
> rock + hard place.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

SOFTBUTT said:


> I guess if I had my own design ripped off I would feel diffent about the subject.
> 
> Wade I do have one question. Why don't you think Courage dropout is silly. If you couldn't tell I like the design, but it does remind me of Vanilla's SpeedVegan design.


Serotta had a similar design well before they were used on the SpeedVagen. Someone else probably used them before that.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

SOFTBUTT said:


> I guess if I had my own design ripped off I would feel different about the subject.
> 
> Wade I do have one question. Why don't you think Courage dropout is silly. If you couldn't tell I like the design, but it does remind me of Vanilla's SpeedVagen design.


Wow, you're gunna love the Salsa dropouts.

If I was to do my own versions of every style of dropouts I need, I'd have to throw AUD10k at it Steve, so I don't see how that's even possible.

Even if I concentrated on the one style of dropouts I'd need the most of, it's still 2.5k.

Maybe when I sell 150 frames a year, but right now it's not feasible. Unless someone knows of a CNC place that's super affordable?


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Salsa has discontinued it's hooded dropouts. The only way to get them is to buy 100pr at a time. Bummer. Group buy, anyone?

W, I figured you have a day job outside of bikes and are rolling in cash! I recently tried the consulting thing and it was profitable, but I'll never get the 10 years back that those 3 weeks took off my life 

Wouldn't it be great if there was one source that all of us numbskulls could use for our custom work? Can you imagine the patience required to work with people like us?!


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I have three jobs actually. Consulting, being a dad, and custom frames. Problem is.....none of them pay! They sure are a lot of fun though.

I'd actually really like to see a lightweight CNC'd Wright-style before a Salsa 'inspired' dropout. They're just not any lighter or easier than the Wrights - I have a pair of lightly massaged Breezers here at 71g.

The Courage and Vanilla dropouts are more marketing exercise than anything else. A way to differentiate. Not lighter, stronger, or even original.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I have three jobs actually. Consulting, being a dad, and custom frames. Problem is.....none of them pay! They sure are a lot of fun though.
> 
> I'd actually really like to see a lightweight CNC'd Wright-style before a Salsa 'inspired' dropout. They're just not any lighter or easier than the Wrights - I have a pair of lightly massaged Breezers here at 71g.
> 
> The Courage and Vanilla dropouts are more marketing exercise than anything else. A way to differentiate. Not lighter, stronger, or even original.


Have you seen the "new" Paragon hooded drops? http://picasaweb.google.com/nahbshow/20090228Components#5308001820192567538 Zoom in.

I don't know what it takes for Mark and his gang to get photos on the site. They've added a few products lately and I have no idea what the hell they are. I don't think their BB purge heatsink has even made it to the site.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Salsa has discontinued it's hooded dropouts. The only way to get them is to buy 100pr at a time. Bummer. Group buy, anyone?


I would be interested in doing something in conjunction with custom builders. We're small enough to be funky, but big enough to order 100's.

I wonder if there's any mileage in having some sort of cooperative open-source kind of thing, with cool parts, and letting me run them on my stuff to get into the right numbers for minimums.

I've got a new range of frames coming out with some funky 'between the stay' disc mounts, on vertical dropouts, though they're still a bit "cut out of plate and bent" for you artisans, perhaps...


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

SOFTBUTT said:


> I guess if I had my own design ripped off I would feel diffent about the subject.
> 
> Wade I do have one question. Why don't you think Courage dropout is silly. If you couldn't tell I like the design, but it does remind me of Vanilla's SpeedVegan design.


I DO think they are silly. Silly and Cool. Silly like playful kid stuff, something I wanted to make myself but never got around to it. I like that they leave them open without the plate vanilla uses. They dont really solve a problem, the just look fun. It is cool to make your own dropouts if you have a cool idea or time to do it. You can really add a personal touch to with custom dropouts. They can also be a pain in the arse.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

brant said:


> I would be interested in doing something in conjunction with custom builders. We're small enough to be funky, but big enough to order 100's.
> 
> I wonder if there's any mileage in having some sort of cooperative open-source kind of thing, with cool parts, and letting me run them on my stuff to get into the right numbers for minimums.
> 
> I've got a new range of frames coming out with some funky 'between the stay' disc mounts, on vertical dropouts, though they're still a bit "cut out of plate and bent" for you artisans, perhaps...


Well seeing the pound is about the only thing the Aussie dollar hasn't dropped against, who knows, it might actually be affordable.

Biggest issue I see is.....what to do?

Sean, thanks for linking me to those Paragons. I just have to cross my fingers they're stainless and my prayers have been answered.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Sean, thanks for linking me to those Paragons. I just have to cross my fingers they're stainless and my prayers have been answered.


1018 Steel


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

D.F.L. said:


> Wouldn't it be great if there was one source that all of us numbskulls could use for our custom work? Can you imagine the patience required to work with people like us?!


It's not that bad. The real problem is trying to explain to folks that fax you napkin sketches that the costs aren't just materials & labor for the part; there's also fixturing, programming, setup costs and manufacturability considerations. Clients who send you well thought out iges/cam drawings are dreamy.

BTW, Paragon Machine is as close to one source as their is for the custom builder. They do some job shop type work, but around 80% of his biz is from the bike industry and his frame building/component offerings.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> I have three jobs actually. Consulting, being a dad, and custom frames. Problem is.....none of them pay! They sure are a lot of fun though.
> 
> I'd actually really like to see a lightweight CNC'd Wright-style before a Salsa 'inspired' dropout. They're just not any lighter or easier than the Wrights - I have a pair of lightly massaged Breezers here at 71g.
> 
> The Courage and Vanilla dropouts are more marketing exercise than anything else. A way to differentiate. Not lighter, stronger, or even original.


Paragon has a very tiny Wright style dropout with the small hoods. Smaller and lighter than the Breezers + it has a replaceable hanger.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

smudge said:


> 1018 Steel


We talked about that. He'll make them in stainless if there is demand.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks, yeah, just got an email reply. Awesome! Finally something good to stick to XCR.


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

UPDATES from you more established builders? I just got a few set of the IRD sliders in. I wanted to hear others' opinions. thanks.


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