# Bike packing and wide tires



## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

Hi, I am new to bike packing and have signed up to do a long trip which includes riding on road as well as off road and easy mountain bike tracks.

I have been looking at different bikes as I will need to get one to use for my trip.

More and more I am seeing bikes with 27.5+ and 29+ tires recommend and comming out for bike packing. Are these bikes actually any good for this or is it just good marketing?
I have ridden plus bikes and fat bikes before at demo days on mountain bike tracks and they have always felt a bit sluggish to me but with heaps of grip, I really can't imagine them being ridden fast on roads or easy mountain bike trails?

What are these bikes really like for Bike packing? I have been eyeing up Surly bikes as they look great and are good value, but they are seem to be plus bikes



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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I've ridden a Surly Krampus with 29+ tires a bunch for bikepacking and really liked it. You don't need plus tires so it you want to ride "normal" 2.4" rubber go for it. It's not like one option is perfect and the other is a total fail. They are just different flavours.

On my FS bikepacking bike I rode 2.4" tires and I was perfectly happy.

If you get a plus bike with a high enough BB you can run either plus tire or "normal" tires with tons of mud clearance.


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

2.4" is what I run on my 150mm travel trail bike. I would have thought 2.4" was wide. How fast can you pedal your Krampus on the flat?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The big wheels roll really well, and have a nice smoothing effect as well. The 27+/29er combo frame is what I would be checking out. The ride you mention sounds like a good match for a Maxxis Ikon 29 x 2.35 on a ~35mm rim. Be like riding on butter!


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## Skeeno (Jan 14, 2009)

27.5x2.8. Plus tires are great for giving a little extra cushion on fire roads and single tracks. Definitely can feel the weight difference. If you are not doing much off road riding, I'd swap to 29x2.2 or something similar that will be a little lighter and better rolling. For me the plus tires are exactly what I wanted.
It softened the ride over my old 26x2.1 I was riding. Was less jarring of a ride. And no suspension to worry about. Simple and effective. I love this Marin Pine Mountain 1.









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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

Can you get up to speeds of 24kph/15mph easily on flat fire roads etc?

And are they easy to pedal up steep hills?

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## Skeeno (Jan 14, 2009)

Interesting question. My bike is geared as low as I could get it. 30/42. My highest gear is 30/11, I believe. Not sure what my top cruising speed is. I do run out of gears quickly on the flats. My bike pack partners have 2x rings and easily outpace me. If I geared it differently, I would have no problem with those speeds.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

VERT1 said:


> Can you get up to speeds of 24kph/15mph easily on flat fire roads etc?
> 
> And are they easy to pedal up steep hills?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How strong are you? What's your definition of easy?

You're asking the wrong questions. If going as fast as possible on pavement and fire roads is important to you, then wide tires aren't for you. If you're riding primarily on trails, you want traction and more traction, want a rigid bike for said adventures for less maintenance and fewer moving parts to break, and aren't heavily prioritizing speed, then consider bigger rubber.

Some people even bikepack on -gasp- fatbikes. If you're strong, sure 15mph is totally doable on a bike with bigger tires. It should go without saying, though, that heavier wheels DO take more work to ride at a given speed than lighter wheels. So that's a big factor in the "how fast" question.

Bikepackers are generally going to be the riders LEAST concerned about speed of anyone.


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

I guess I should have rephrased my question. My concern I guess is that fat tires could be slow or hard work to accelerate and pedal at speed?


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

Harold said:


> How strong are you? What's your definition of easy?
> 
> You're asking the wrong questions. If going as fast as possible on pavement and fire roads is important to you, then wide tires aren't for you. If you're riding primarily on trails, you want traction and more traction, want a rigid bike for said adventures for less maintenance and fewer moving parts to break, and aren't heavily prioritizing speed, then consider bigger rubber.
> 
> ...


I have signed up to a ride which ideally I want to do in 20 days, but to do in 20 days would mean I would also need to ride 100 miles every day. The ride consists on fire roads, grade 1/2 trails and some road and beaches. The ride is sometime off so I got plenty of time to train for it and I want the right bike for it. Most of the bike packing bikes I see are "plus" or "fat" tired bikes. I am a strong rider, but I want to be riding something that is suited for what I want to achieve.

Because of what I am riding grip isn't high on my list, but to cover 100 miles a day I would be wanting a pretty good cruising speed, I don't want a slow bike or a bike that is going to make put more effort in than I need to, this is why I am asking about these bikes.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

VERT1 said:


> I have signed up to a ride which ideally I want to do in 20 days, but to do in 20 days would mean I would also need to ride 100 miles every day. The ride consists on fire roads, grade 1/2 trails and some road and beaches. The ride is sometime off so I got plenty of time to train for it and I want the right bike for it. Most of the bike packing bikes I see are "plus" or "fat" tired bikes. I am a strong rider, but I want to be riding something that is suited for what I want to achieve.
> 
> Because of what I am riding grip isn't high on my list, but to cover 100 miles a day I would be wanting a pretty good cruising speed, I don't want a slow bike or a bike that is going to make put more effort in than I need to, this is why I am asking about these bikes.


I don't bike pack, not sure if I ever will but the questions you have and relying on somewhat subjective experiences by others seems a bit of gamble if not pointless other than the general info you've got thus far.

Are you going to be able to find for yourself, a bike you can test ride, borrow or rent to get some saddle time in? 
If so, you still need to pursue the countless variables of drive train, packing / loaded weight on the bike versus your expectations on pedaling efficiency, fitness level etc... oh, and tires/psi to run it on.

I think you'll work out the details just fine if you have the time and resources to do it more in first person relationship. After that, some of the questions you may still have should become more tangible and meaningful.

I have a 27.5 plus Marin steel h/t ( Nobby Nics x 2.9 or 3.0 ? ) as of about 6 weeks now. Went from a 26" x 2.2 much like skeeno mentioned. It was a 3 x 8 and now this is 1x11 at 32/42. Loving the ride and handling on trail and fire roads. No loads on it really but I'm 56 y/o and 175# still pushing to get in shape, no problems getting the bike rolling 18 to 22 mph on flat gravel or dirt roads.

Good luck !!


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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

Curious as to what the ride/route is...also 20 100 mile days (in a row) is not a trivial endeavor, even on a road tour. How much beach riding? That is where plus tires will shine. If beach time is minimal I'd go for a fast rolling 29x2.1 if you're trying to knock out big miles every day on easy terrain.


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

Minimal beach which may only be 60 miles at the start

http://www.touraotearoa.nz/p/the-route.html?m=1

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## alias (May 9, 2005)

VERT1 said:


> Can you get up to speeds of 24kph/15mph easily on flat fire roads etc?
> 
> And are they easy to pedal up steep hills?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your might consider rethinking what questions to ask if you expect to get any useful info out of this. Your questions could hardly be more vague.

good luck


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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

VERT1 said:


> Minimal beach which may only be 60 miles at the start
> 
> Tour Aotearoa 2018: The Route
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First of all...hella jealous. I've needed a reason to go back to NZ and I think I just found it. Second, from reading a few blogs and seeing pictures, I wouldn't go plus sized for that route. 90 Mile Beach at low tide will allow you to ride on hard packed sand pretty much the whole way (no guarantees though). The rest of the route definitely looks like regular 29er territory. Pick a fast roller you like and get after it. If I were doing it and had the dough it would be a Salsa Cutthroat kinda ride. Also, bring GOOD wet weather gear, the route down the South Island is almost all along the west coast, which gets shitloads of rain, pretty much all the time. That will be the last third of the trip at least and you don't want to be miserable and wet for the last 1300km...


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

For that trip I would recommend a 29er with fast rolling tires run tubeless. If you are looking to purchase a bike check out the Titanium 29ers from bikesdirect and get a triple front ring. If you need eyelets for racks then you might look elsewhere but for seat bags, frame bag and front roll or harness it is a great option.
In my opinion plus bikes are more trail oriented and I think for 100 mile days a standard 29er with nice rolling tires would be the ticket.


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## Skeeno (Jan 14, 2009)

Now that I see that 100 miles/day is the mark, I definitely agree that a plus bike is not the correct option. A 29x2.1/2.2 is what I go with and a triple or double chain ring is also a must.

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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

VERT1 said:


> Can you get up to speeds of 24kph/15mph easily on flat fire roads etc?
> 
> And are they easy to pedal up steep hills?


I rode my 29+ with a big group bikepacking and the two 29+ bikes were at or close to the front the whole time. There was no disadvantage to being on 29+ and there were definitely times when it was easy to pull away from folks on skinny tires due to surface conditions.

I have had no issues riding up and over mountains on 29+. I don't monitor my speed while touring and since I may be stronger or weaker than you what speed I can hold on 29+ is pretty much irrelevant. I certainly have no issues riding my 29+ on fireroads and doing big days...for me that's 100miles with a bunch of steep climbing.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Agree, I pack with + bike riders, no difference in speed. Those big wheels really roll! Plus wheels aren't much heavier than 2.4 wheels if done right.


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## Zoran (Jul 4, 2015)

I would like to participate in some races this season but I know now I can't win, or better say: I won't be able to keep up with others riding my plus bike. I will have 27.5x2.8 and it is unlikely I could make 100 miles per day (or 160-170km here in Canada). 

On my trips I will be happy if I can make 100km per day (60 miles). For example BC Epic is 1000km (600 miles) race and guys completed it in less than 5 days. I simply can't do 200km per day on wide tires and my hardtail. Unless I ride 16hrs and sleep 5-6hours. Even then I will be closer to 150km (100 miles) than to 200km (120 miles). 

Last time on 29er with 2.20 tires I was riding logging roads 14 hours and I completed 148km. It was heard and not always flat.

But I wan't to experience race and I would like to do the best I can. Race I will go to is 600km Double Buckshot in Kamloops in September. Maybe I will try riding 16hr/day.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

100 miles a day for 20 days? Yikes. Ummm, good luck with that. Plus gear and water? For all paved I only do 50-70 max. Off road, dirt road and singletrack? Hmmm. Think about 10 mph ave for 10 hrs. Lunch or rest breaks? Beach? What is a grade 1/2 track? My last tour consisted of pave, double track ( dirt road) some singletrack and some ( really) washed out jeep road. I used my Surly Karate Monkey. It's a steel 29er, 80 mm front sus fork, 35 mm rims with 29x2.3 slicks with some slight inverse tread. Great all around and quick rolling. With the plus bike, you have room to spare. Think about something like the Maxxis Grifter, 29x2.5. Some cush, a sort of inverse tread/ siping and sure to be smooth rolling. Would be good for all but mud and slop. Really should rethink that distance/time thing. Or are you just racing?


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

Thanks for the advice everyone, it has given me a better idea of what I need.

I'm thinking Karate Monkey with 100mm forks and 29er wheelset, 2.25" tires. I will run a 1x11 set up for less maintenance worries (and I do prefer it).


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## Zoran (Jul 4, 2015)

Maybe I was little negative! You should read following article and stick with plus bike?
It is possible to go 112 miles in 7 hours. 

Armed with knobby tires and aero bars, Dr. Kevin Emge put his own spin on the bike portion of the North American championship race-and didn't even finish the ride last This Guy Crushed Ironman Texas on a Fat Bike | Bicycling


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

for that ride I would use something like a Fargo or Kona Sutro LTD. The dirt drop bars give you more hand positions, the frames fit 2.1" or bigger tires and are well suited to that ride. 
I know people who have done that ride and they rode drop bar off-road bikes with rigid forks and were very happy with that choice as it is more a mixed terrain tour.

mike


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ikon 29 x 2.35. The Bike Packers favorite.


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## jmctav23 (Oct 16, 2010)

senor_mikey said:


> for that ride I would use something like a Fargo or Kona Sutro LTD. The dirt drop bars give you more hand positions, the frames fit 2.1" or bigger tires and are well suited to that ride.
> I know people who have done that ride and they rode drop bar off-road bikes with rigid forks and were very happy with that choice as it is more a mixed terrain tour.
> 
> mike


Second the dirt drop notion...I'd really like to try out a pair of Nitto's 52cm wide dirt drops or even Crust bikes 66cm wide monster drop bar.


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## alias (May 9, 2005)

As more info about your route comes out I will also put a word in for a nice drop bar 29er with fat, fast rolling rubber. My Fargo Ti with 30mm rims and 2.35 Racing Ralphs rolls like a freight train and has enough of a foot print that when things get super soft, you can let air out and usually be OK, and on packed dirt or tarmac, its just a dream.

good luck


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## FoothillsHero (Oct 31, 2016)

I just completed the Arizona Trail (AZT) from the Mexico border to GCNP on 2016 Trek Stache 7 29+ bike. The bike was stock with the exception of Jones H-Bar, Brooks saddle, and bags, obviously. I wasn't racing but was in more of a tourer mode. The bike worked great and plus sized tires are totally acceptable for a bikepacking rig.

After a long day in the saddle, it's nice to let a few psi out of the tires and soften the impact on those contact points. Also, there's some sand on the AZT, and it made those sections much more doable. Finally, I love the 29+ on the more flat sections of trail - it seems to me that you get those big spinning masses up to speed and they just gobble up the miles.

The only thing I'd change is the gearing. Having a 30x42 on 29+ was a little high for me - something in the 28x44 or 28x46 would be more acceptable for getting a loaded bike up some of those climbs, especially towards the end of a long day or set of days.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

VERT1 said:


> I really can't imagine them being ridden fast on roads or easy mountain bike trails?


If you're going to limit yourself to roads and easy mtb trails, then you don't need plus.


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

mikesee said:


> If you're going to limit yourself to roads and easy mtb trails, then you don't need plus.


My point being all the new bike packing bikes seem to come with plus sized tires

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## MrkT (Jan 12, 2016)

VERT1 said:


> My point being all the new bike packing bikes seem to come with plus sized tires
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think where you're getting a bit hung up is the idea of a "bike packing bike". No such thing really. You can bikepack on damn near any bike. The only real requirements are a low enough gear and a good saddle, IMO. All the rest is dictated by YOUR preferences. Drop bars, flat bars, 26, 27.5, 29, 2.2", babyfat, midfat, plus, fatties, Rohloff, Pinion, 1x11, 2x10, 3x9, rigid, hard tail, full suspension, hydraulic or disc... just match your needs to your route, strap some gear on and go.


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## Black Squirrel (Oct 13, 2016)

Something like this with 29x2.0-2.2 and an 11-42 cassette would be my choice.

Breezer Bikes - Radar Pro - Bike Overview


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

MrkT said:


> I think where you're getting a bit hung up is the idea of a "bike packing bike". No such thing really. You can bikepack on damn near any bike. The only real requirements are a low enough gear and a good saddle, IMO. All the rest is dictated by YOUR preferences. Drop bars, flat bars, 26, 27.5, 29, 2.2", babyfat, midfat, plus, fatties, Rohloff, Pinion, 1x11, 2x10, 3x9, rigid, hard tail, full suspension, hydraulic or disc... just match your needs to your route, strap some gear on and go.


Sweet I'll take my 200mm DH rig, sorted!

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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

As has already been mentioned, expected terrain dictates a lot when it comes to tire selection. But almost equally important is rider strength and ability.
My friend Jesse using narrow cyclocross tires on a complete rigid bike can climb and descend much better than I can on my hardtail with 2.1" Nanos. It is insanely impressive.

Myself, I still stick with my WTB Nanos. But I mostly ride gravel with some modest single track thrown in here and there. 100+ miles a day with them is no real big deal and my bikes gearing gives me plenty of top end on smooth gravel or pavement.


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## alias (May 9, 2005)

VERT1 said:


> Sweet I'll take my 200mm DH rig, sorted!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting reply coming from a guy who can't seem to formulate clear questions or effectively communicate his needs while asking strangers for advice.

How long is a piece of string?
How tall is a mountain?
Will I get cold if I go swimming?


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## VERT1 (Mar 1, 2006)

alias said:


> Interesting reply coming from a guy who can't seem to formulate clear questions or effectively communicate his needs while asking strangers for advice.
> 
> How long is a piece of string?
> How tall is a mountain?
> Will I get cold if I go swimming?


I was taking the piss and if you read what I wrote you would have worked out what and why I was asking.

I got some great answers to the questions I asked initially and I am greatful, but then some people always have to chime in afterwards with some irrelevant comments or advice - some people just can't help themselves...

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## ionsmuse (Jul 14, 2005)

VERT1 said:


> Minimal beach which may only be 60 miles at the start
> 
> Tour Aotearoa 2018: The Route
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lotta pavement on that.


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## xgsjx (May 24, 2016)

Tyre width doesn't have all that much of an effect on rolling resistance. Compound & tread pattern does, as does tyre pressure.
I used to have 3" Schwalbe Rocket Rons on my bike. They're a very fast rolling tyre.
I'd be about 14-15 psi for off road & inflate to about 22 psi when hitting tarmac.
I only changed them because I wanted more off road grip (especially in mud), so I now have a Wee Trax Fatty 2.8 up front & a WTB Trail Boss 3.0 on the rear. Probably not as fast a rolling tyres, but still able to get up to speed & pedal over 15mph on the flat with ease.

If you're mainly taking in tarmac & a wee bit of easy off road, maybe you'd be better with a gravel bike?


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

I have a Bike Friday Pocket Llama, rigged with climbing gearing, 20x2 knobby Maxxis tires, handlebar roll, seat bag and front rack for small panniers. Thinking about the TNGA. Am I nuts? Should I go ahead and get a hardtail?


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

DeadGrandpa said:


> I have a Bike Friday Pocket Llama, rigged with climbing gearing, 20x2 knobby Maxxis tires, handlebar roll, seat bag and front rack for small panniers. Thinking about the TNGA. Am I nuts? Should I go ahead and get a hardtail?


Dat's funny rite 'der, I tell you what.

Although, I gotta admit there may be method to the madness... if you can't bike it, fold'n'carry is an option.... hmmm, could also fit a suitcase over the top tube...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DeadGrandpa said:


> I have a Bike Friday Pocket Llama, rigged with climbing gearing, 20x2 knobby Maxxis tires, handlebar roll, seat bag and front rack for small panniers. Thinking about the TNGA. Am I nuts? Should I go ahead and get a hardtail?


 Nuts. 20" tires? How much stuff could you carry? Lunch and a sweater?


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

At least I finally got the affirmation I have sought for so long. Nuts.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Got pics of your setup? This is the Georgia race? Terrain and distance? Just seems some kind of hardtail/plus setups seem to be the right tool for the job.


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

Yes this is the Georgia "race", though it is already in progress so I was only considering riding it for the pleasure and the challenge. I'm new to the world of mtb, though I did ride the Denali hiway on my rigid Jamis Renegade last summer as part of a 500 mile road ride in Alaska. I learned that 700x35c paved road tires are less than optimum for chunky gravel.

The TNGA is 357 miles, 37,000 ft of climbing, 82% non paved, 17% singletrack. Trans North Georgia (TNGA) - BIKEPACKING.com

Somebody in a post above stated that any bike can be a bikepacking bike, just strap some bags on and go. So I have a handlebar roll to strap on my trekking handlebars, and a Revelate Viscacha Seat bag, but no place to tie on a frame bag. But the bike is ostensibly a touring bike, and I have racks for front and rear, though I have read it's better to load front only rather than rear only. Which is a low mounting however I do it, causing potential problems in narrow singletrack. As for suspension, there is a Thudbuster ST seat post, but that's all. Disc brakes, BB-7s. The gearing is SRAM Dual Drive, with a 9 speed cassette and 3 speed IGH, so only one chain ring in front, but gear inches 17-105. I will post a pic after I figure out a way to do it with my phone, as I don't see the 'attach' icon. The bike is orange, so it's not fast, but I don't get in a hurry. I could buy a bona fide hardtail, but which one? None I've looked at, or read reviews of, seem to be exactly what I want. I've got this orange folder with knobby 20 inch tires hanging there, and I think, "Those wheels are round. I could probably pedal that bike 357 miles. That's kinda why I bought it."


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Wheel size seems to be the issue. And yes, one could bike pack on anything. Some bikes would work better than others. My Karate Monkey works well with tires in the 2.5 to 3.0" in the 29er flavor. Check out some of the Surly stuff. Front sus? 29er? Lots of choices.


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

DeadGrandpa said:


> The TNGA is 357 miles, 37,000 ft of climbing, 82% non paved, 17% singletrack. Trans North Georgia (TNGA) - BIKEPACKING.com
> 
> Somebody in a post above stated that any bike can be a bikepacking bike, just strap some bags on and go. So I have a handlebar roll to strap on my trekking handlebars, and a Revelate Viscacha Seat bag, but no place to tie on a frame bag. But the bike is ostensibly a touring bike, and I have racks for front and rear, though I have read it's better to load front only rather than rear only. Which is a low mounting however I do it, causing potential problems in narrow singletrack. As for suspension, there is a Thudbuster ST seat post, but that's all. Disc brakes, BB-7s. The gearing is SRAM Dual Drive, with a 9 speed cassette and 3 speed IGH, so only one chain ring in front, but gear inches 17-105. I will post a pic after I figure out a way to do it with my phone, as I don't see the 'attach' icon. The bike is orange, so it's not fast, but I don't get in a hurry. I could buy a bona fide hardtail, but which one? None I've looked at, or read reviews of, seem to be exactly what I want. I've got this orange folder with knobby 20 inch tires hanging there, and I think, "Those wheels are round. I could probably pedal that bike 357 miles. That's kinda why I bought it."


Not all bikepacking trips are created equally. I'd say most bikes can be used as a bikepacking bike as long as that same bike could tackle the terrain without the bikepacking gear. I've ridden my touring bike down some single track. Did it work? Yes. Did I move at a decent speed? No. Did I have to walk over any sections? Yes. Would I take that bike on a loaded tour down a single track route? Not if I had any better option. I don't know what the TNGA looks like, and I don't know how the Pocket Llama rides, but it sounds like a sketchy combination to me. You'd probably want to try that bike out on some rough single track before deciding if you want to turn it into a bikepacking set-up. I wouldn't say you couldn't do it. I'd just say you might not want to. You might spend more time carrying that bike than you'd prefer. On the other hand, I went "bikepacking" down some canal trails and rail trails this spring, and that could be done on a folding bike.

If you were going to try it on the Pocket Llama:
Examine your gear carrying options. I think the "carry the weight up front" advice is generally good, but carrying low, side loads on single track is not good. That's one of the reasons why bikepacking set-ups exist: to get the load high and in the center where it won't get in the way when riding narrow, bumpy trails. For the kind of riding I do, I'm happy with panniers, but on a small wheel bike, those things are going to hang low no matter what. That's fine for pavement, and probably for smooth dirt and gravel, but not for uneven terrain. But moving the weight up higher also means a higher center of gravity, which can be a bigger stability issue on a small wheeled bike. So see how it handles. But ideally I'd say handlebar roll and the seat bag. If you need more, maybe a trunk bag. For single track on a small wheeled bike, I think panniers would be a last resort, and I'd hang them high in the back before hanging them low up front. 2" tires sound good, too, but if I had the frame clearance and the rim width for wider, I might look at wider options. Smaller wheels can ride kind of harsh, but a higher volume tire can help with that some.

I have a 20" folding bike. It even has a front suspension, but not a high-end one. I also have 26" rigid, mountain/touring bike. They both serve as my commuter on occasion. They both get me to work and back, but I definitely cut more corners and take more off-road short cuts on my bigger bike.

Good luck.


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