# Ti bolts on an AM bike. How much weight can one realistically remove for how much $.



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I like bling, I like some lightweight bikes, but am not willing to give up anything but some money.

If I began on Amazon buying Ti hardware, realistically how much $ would I spend and how much weight could I remove?

I guess in my head if I could spend $250 and remove a pound, that seems reasonable. Am I being unreasonable in my expectations?

Thanks.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Looking at the number of bolts on the average MTB, you'd have to get negative weight, not just a weight reduction, to lose a pound.

There just aren't enough bolts to go around.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> I like bling, I like some lightweight bikes, but am not willing to give up anything but some money.
> 
> If I began on Amazon buying Ti hardware, realistically how much $ would I spend and how much weight could I remove?
> 
> ...


It all adds up . If you are just replacing bolts then there really is no point but if it is all leading up to you replacing everything else with lighter components then go for it .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd anticipate weight reduction between 50-70g for a complete bike bolt swapout. This would be Ti to replace higher stress items (rotors), and ALU for light use (bottle cage).

It is not a high-return process - very costly for what you save. Checkout this FAQ entry with handy bolt weights by type done by XC71:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/*new*-official-weight-weenies-f-q-949497.html#post11774521


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

While adjusting and cleaning my SS I found it had 4 steel M8 bolts. Hold in my hand and 'gee... those are heavy!' Replaced them with Ti, saved 56g. I went with expensive bolts from paragon so cost $28. "Similar" bolts can be had from Toronto Cycles for $14.

In my book, 56g for $14 is a great no brainer. I'm happy with my new pretty ti bolts and black aluminum washers, so I guess it was worth it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/kona/raijin-weight-saving-ti-slider-bolts-1027218.html

Excited with this success I went and weighed other bolts, brakes, rotors, water bottle... Their weight sums to... nothing significant. There was a 'good deal' on amazon for some m6 bolts, they took weeks to arrive and... were the wrong bolts, wrong count, wrong length, wrong diameter. I got a full refund and got to keep the bolts. *IF* I put them on my bike I'd save like 7 grams... I know better now and just don't care.

Go ahead and remove all the bolts you're considering to replace with ti... weigh that handful, or just hold them in your hand. Hefty? Would you be happy if that weight went to zero? Probably you'll laugh then and forget about ti bolts.

As far as vendor: After exhausting traditional supply places (mcmaster carr, fastenal, etc) I ordered my specific aluminum washers from Toronto cycles, great product, good prices, service was outstanding. The web site looks sketchy but its for reals and that is who I'd buy from...

PS: If you're not happy with your bar positioning you have a great way to save weight: A wren stem for $50 saved me 125g. That was noticeable.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Just remember to put lots of grease on the threads . You don't want any galling between the titanium and alloy parts . Also titanium is much harder than alloy so easier to strip threads so torque them up properly .


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Not much, it's more dense than aluminum, so it's heavier by volume. It's about halfway between aluminum and steel in terms of weight, so the weight savings are not very dramatic. You can't run aluminum bolts everywhere, but in a few places they make sense, for non-critical control interfaces like shifters, bolt-cages, headset top-cap bolt, etc.

Titanium is good for high temperature applications and for avoiding corrosion, but but it's difficult to manufacture and therefore expensive for things like bolts. You don't save much weight. Shimano includes titanium brake bolts with xtr, but they are relieved a bit more than steel bolts, which is one of the weight saving features. Cheaper Ti bolts may not even have this.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Just remember to put lots of grease on the threads . You don't want any galling between the titanium and alloy parts . Also titanium is much harder than alloy so easier to strip threads so torque them up properly .


Titanium (at least in all bike applications) IS an alloy.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Titanium (at least in all bike applications) IS an alloy.


I know that . I meant aluminium .


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Why stop there. Schmolke has carbon bolts. 

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks fo the honest answers guys.

Sounds like a collosal waste of cash and time honestly.

My new bike is a new Yeti 5.5, I wonder what all those linkage bolts are made of?

Thanks again.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

eri said:


> While adjusting and cleaning my SS I found it had 4 steel M8 bolts. Hold in my hand and 'gee... those are heavy!' Replaced them with Ti, saved 56g. I went with expensive bolts from paragon so cost $28. "Similar" bolts can be had from Toronto Cycles for $14.
> 
> In my book, 56g for $14 is a great no brainer. I'm happy with my new pretty ti bolts and black aluminum washers, so I guess it was worth it.
> 
> ...


I honestly didn't believe those weight savings until I checked out your threads - great scale shots BTW, thx. I'd have to say though, your savings are atypical of what you'd normally see from the usual steel bolt assortment.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Thanks fo the honest answers guys.
> 
> Sounds like a collosal waste of cash and time honestly.
> 
> ...


Odds are steel.


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> Thanks fo the honest answers guys.
> 
> Sounds like a collosal waste of cash and time honestly.
> 
> ...


You can save a couple/few ounces by swapping out the brake rotor bolts and caliper bolts, probably for less than $50 and at most an hour of wrenching. It's been a while since I did it so I don't actually remember what I paid. Easy work, lighter, more bling, not too expensive, no regrets.

I agree the linkage bolts are probably steel. There's more weight to be saved there. But of course it will cost correspondingly more as well.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

bogeydog said:


> Why stop there. Schmolke has carbon bolts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Yup I have those on all my bikes . They are just a substitute for aluminium and not for titanium/steel though .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

phlegm said:


> Odds are steel.


Yup defo steel . To get titanium versions you have three options:

1. Hope the company makes titanium versions of the steel link bolts

2 . Get a machinist to make some for you

3. Make them yourself (which I have done in the past for my Specialized Enduro FSR)


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

karimian5 said:


> Yup defo steel .


Safer to say 'depends on the bike'.

When I redid the bearings in my Yeti ASR5C I was really surprised how light all the linkage stuff was. The dogbone was aluminum, the sleeves were gorgeous anodized aluminum, the bolts were light. The bearings were small... 

On that bike there was no significant (or maybe any) weight to be saved in the linkage.

Could be Yeti cheapened up but I wouldn't bet on it.

Defer a decision until you have it apart for maintenance.

Or call Yeti and ask them.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

eri said:


> Safer to say 'depends on the bike'.
> 
> When I redid the bearings in my Yeti ASR5C I was really surprised how light all the linkage stuff was. The dogbone was aluminum, the sleeves were gorgeous anodized aluminum, the bolts were light. The bearings were small...
> 
> ...


Ah crap I forgot my Stumpy has alloy linkage bolts . They are also machined down to save weight . Definitly depends on the bike/model .

I agree it's best to call Yeti . No point taking the bike apart just to check and find they are indeed alloy .


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

NWS said:


> You can save a couple/few ounces by swapping out the brake rotor bolts and caliper bolts, probably for less than $50 and at most an hour of wrenching. It's been a while since I did it so I don't actually remember what I paid. Easy work, lighter, more bling, not too expensive, no regrets.


Since you're happy I maybe shouldn't dredge up these old memories. Did you weigh the bits before/after? Can you share specifics?

Maybe I messed up: I penciled out that going ti bolts for calipers and rotors would save ~27g.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I used Ti bolts and aluminum washers for my brake bolts. Aluminum for the bottle cage bolts. More of a novelty than relying on for weight reduction. Got them all from Toronto Cycles.

Does anyone know the bolt size for Shimano M785 brake levers?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> I used Ti bolts and aluminum washers for my brake bolts. Aluminum for the bottle cage bolts. More of a novelty than relying on for weight reduction. Got them all from Toronto Cycles.
> 
> Does anyone know the bolt size for Shimano M785 brake levers?


5mm

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brake-levers/shimano-deore-xt-blm785-clamp-bolt-m5-x-18mm-y8vc10000/


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## NWS (Jun 30, 2010)

eri said:


> Since you're happy I maybe shouldn't dredge up these old memories. Did you weigh the bits before/after? Can you share specifics?
> 
> Maybe I messed up: I penciled out that going ti bolts for calipers and rotors would save ~27g.


I only weighed them in my not-very-carefully-calibrated hands. I am surprised it was just one ounce, but I trust your scale more than my hands.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

karimian5 said:


> 5mm
> 
> https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brake-levers/shimano-deore-xt-blm785-clamp-bolt-m5-x-18mm-y8vc10000/


Thanks!


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> Thanks fo the honest answers guys.
> 
> Sounds like a collosal waste of cash and time honestly.
> 
> ...


On my Yeti SB5c the shock bolts are engraved Ti bolts. The 4 Fox SI bolts are steel.Your 5.5 is likely the same. See post #17 in my build thread, I have bolt sizes and scale shots. I got the bolts from torontocycles.com
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/yeti-sb5c-xc-build-1007622.html


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## fxrextreme (Mar 11, 2015)

I see ti bolts as bike jewellery, not as an cost effective way of losing weight. I have them on my bike cos I like nice things and if someone else doesn't like that then it's their problem!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Ordered some hardware from Toronto Cycles. Some fun bits that don't cost too much money.


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## mattkock (Mar 19, 2009)

I have replaced ALL of the bolts on my DH bike with Rainbow Titanium or Purple Alloy. Ti is half the weight of steel and Alloy is a third of the weight of steel and they don't rust and look great. Always use Ti-Prep or Anti-Seize on the threads to avoid galling.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

I do the same, but I was explicitly told by Renthal NOT to put titanium bolt on the handlebar face plate.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Davide said:


> I do the same, but I was explicitly told by Renthal NOT to put titanium bolt on the handlebar face plate.


Nothing wrong with titanium on the faceplate . Even MCFK stems have titanium bolts and they are m4 too . Syntace also use titanium bolts as standard on the faceplate .


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Seb K said:


> Nothing wrong with titanium on the faceplate . Even MCFK stems have titanium bolts and they are m4 too . Syntace also use titanium bolts as standard on the faceplate .


So does Enve

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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Go to toronto cycles website. Do it up. All my bikes have every reasonable bolt replaced with Ti or Al from them. I don't know hom much lighter this makes them but they're lighter than anyone else's bikes and this gives me a little mental edge. I like knowing that I have better equipement than my competition.

My Nomad goes between 26 and 29lbs depending on tires, shock, chain guide.
My V10.5 is 30.5lbs with 2.7" DHFs. Gwin drooled on it a little while we were waiting for our starts at Nationals a few years ago. He beat me anyway.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I just replaced the pulley bolts on my X1 rear derailleur with some hollow rainbow Ti ones. Some of the higher spec derailleurs are realy come with Ti or aluminum bolts. All the bolts on my X0 rear are aluminum and the pulley bolts are hollow. Not sure what the main bolt that holds the derailleur to the hanger is made of.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Seb K said:


> Nothing wrong with titanium on the faceplate . Even MCFK stems have titanium bolts and they are m4 too . Syntace also use titanium bolts as standard on the faceplate .


Just being the messenger ...


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

There is not much weight to be saved going to Ti fasteners on a bicycle. 
On Factory MotoX bikes the weight savings can be up to 2 lbs. But they are including 3 large axles and motor mount bolts along with many,many more fasteners and all or most are more substantial than anything a bicycle uses. 
Bike weight is best saved by using lighter tires and tubeless, lighter wheels, lighter crank, lighter suspension components. All those decisions have compromises youhave to decide what is a priority.
I use Ti bolts on brake mounts, stems, rotor bolts and w/b cages. Mainly because I like shiny **** and have an assortment from my Moto days.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

chasejj said:


> There is not much weight to be saved going to Ti fasteners on a bicycle.


Yeah, but ti is cool. Something to do when your bike is "done", but you can't stop messing with it. Besides, it has a negative wind resistance factor you have to figure in. Or something like that.

I've done a bunch of little stuff recently, just to have something to play with, and found where I scribbled down the weight difference they made vs what came off.
12 ti rotor bolts: -8g
6 ti stem bolts/washers: -6g
6 ti caliper bolts/washers: -22g
1 Al headset bolt: -6g
XTR R160 brake adapter: -9g
1 ti retainer bolt for rear thruaxle on my frame: -2.5g
1 ti bolt for my SS conversion's tensioner: -1.5g
4 Al bottle cage bolts: -9g
64g. That's less than I'd have saved with a pair of lightweight rotors alone if weight were actually the main concern.
Since I'm about to order some ti stem bolts for my hybrid "exercise bike"(my stem bolts all rust), I might get a ti bolt and washer for my Wolftooth ReMote, though. Just think, for a mere $3.20 total, my bike might get another whole gram lighter!:eekster:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

OwenM said:


> Yeah, but ti is cool. Something to do when your bike is "done", but you can't stop messing with it. Besides, it has a negative wind resistance factor you have to figure in. Or something like that.
> 
> I've done a bunch of little stuff recently, just to have something to play with, and found where I scribbled down the weight difference they made vs what came off.
> 12 ti rotor bolts: -8g
> ...


Good list for reference!


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

I've replaced most of the bolts on my Nukeproof with Ti. Nice bike jewelry, lightens both the wallet and the bike an essentially unnoticeable amount, but it gets some compliments at the trailhead.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Did my brake rotor bolts, brake calliper, seat bolt as rainbow ti and swapped out the brake, gear and dropper remote with black Alu. All for purely aesthetic purposes and it was around 60g saving


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## ReturnOfTheMTB (Nov 4, 2014)

Seb K said:


> Just remember to put lots of grease on the threads . You don't want any galling between the titanium and alloy parts . Also titanium is much harder than alloy so easier to strip threads so torque them up properly .


Got some titanium bolts for my rotors. Put some blue thread locker on it. Is that ok?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

You don't necessarily need thread locker, but you will want anti-seize. Contact across dissimilar metals (Ti bolts and your hub) can cause them to bond. 

While I believe the threadlock may prevent that, I'm not 100%. Also, sometimes the threadlock is applied along a strip of threads, and won't completely prevent contact across the entire bolt.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I started this thread sometime back, slowly but surely I have been swapping out a few parts here and there on my large 5.5 and it's definitely a balance as I ride the bike hard enough that I break things if I don't make them sturdy enough. Mainly Tires and Wheels but also cassettes and chain guides. 
Anyways I have the new KS Lev carbon fiber 175 dropper coming, it weighs about a third of a pound less than my 150 Reverb. It's a pretty solid Improvement. I've got the bike with good Enduro tires, X2 rear shock, my tools on it, my mag flat pedals, chain guard, and a shock wiz on it and it's just under 30 lb. That makes me pretty happy.

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## Rako (Sep 1, 2017)

Pretty much all the fasteners on my bike are Ti or AL. Some of the smaller derailer and shifter fasteners are the factory installed ones. I took off around a 1/4 pound with the lighter fasteners. Not the most efficient way to reduce weight but, works well if you are already reducing weight from other parts. Like any other part, counting (reducing) grams gets expensive.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Questions on the need for anti-seize for Ti bolts.
The stock steel 6-bolt brake rotor bolts have threadlocker on them so they won't back out and cause your rotor to loosen and create a 'situation'. Same goes for handlebar faceplate bolts, the 2 stem bolts, caliper bolts etc. They're all steel bolts with threadlocker.
I've replaced all of my rotor bolts and stem/faceplate bolts with Ti bolts and used medium blue threadlocker. I've torqued all of those bolts to factory spec.
What keeps a Ti bolt, whatever the application, from backing out if only anti-seize or grease is used?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I only use anti-seize only on my Ti rotor bolts, and have never had one back out. I just tighten to the specified torque, that's it.

I don't know if thread locker is sufficient to prevent galvanic corrosion. It may be, but you'd have to cover the full extent of the treads. Most thread locker I've seen - at least on OEM bolts - is applied to a strip of the threads, not the full deal. I suspect that doesn't help against the dissimilar metals fusing together.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Any long-term (or short-term) experiences with Ti on Steel corrosion/fusion you can point to? Not doubting as this is a fact, just wondered if there's any solid evidence / experiences as it relates to Ti hardware on bicycles...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've heard of it happening with an ALU seat post in a steel frame, but that's far less common now:




Seized Seatposts and Stems | Park Tool
http://forums.mtbr.com/tooltime/fused-seatpost-445426.html

...but it's the same theory for Ti bolts and your hub. I suppose you're trading risk of bolts backing out vs bolts never backing out.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I've always just used regular grease on Ti bolts and never had one loosen or corrode.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Hmmm. Thanks for the responses. Now I may yank all my Ti bolts out and grease 'em up. I'd hate to have cheap Chinese Ti bolts seize up in my 2 sets of high dollar Roval carbon wheelsets / DT Swiss 240S Hubs!! That'd be a sad day indeed.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

on use of anti-seize... 

I have replaced most of the bolts on my Mega 290 with ti and used grease on the threads which has always worked fine for me. However... when i went to pack my bike for our recent whistler/pnw trip I did find that my stem/bar bolts were seized. I had to drill them out, which wasn't that big of a deal, but i'd prefer not to have to do that again in the future.

These had only been in for about 400 miles of ridding, and I was really surprised this had happened. i'll be using anti-seize on all ti bolts in the future.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

euroford said:


> on use of anti-seize...
> 
> I have replaced most of the bolts on my Mega 290 with ti and used grease on the threads which has always worked fine for me. However... when i went to pack my bike for our recent whistler/pnw trip I did find that my stem/bar bolts were seized. I had to drill them out, which wasn't that big of a deal, but i'd prefer not to have to do that again in the future.
> 
> These had only been in for about 400 miles of ridding, and I was really surprised this had happened. i'll be using anti-seize on all ti bolts in the future.


Thank you for sharing this. Is a great thing to point out.

You are somehow mature enough, and lucky enough, to be able to deal with the seized bolts like an adult, had a reasonable outcome. Some other cases I've had where a seized bolt was days of pain. I've had seized aluminum in steel, but worst case I've seen was anodized aluminum on anodized aluminum (derailleur into hanger) When I ground down to the threaded interface the pieces were joined exactly like a single piece of metal, I couldn't pry them apart. I suspect it was installed without grease. When I reinstalled I used blue locktite and Teflon plumber's tape.

People: be really careful with mismatched metals. Anti-sieze is your friend, do your research and use the right kind... OR PAY THE PRICE!!!


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Got a link to some good anti-seize for, say, stems bolts and hub / rotor bolts?


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

I've already got a tube of this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007M1WKS/ref=pd_luc_rh_sbs_02_01_t_ttl_lh?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1#customerReviews

Good?


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

COMTBR said:


> Got a link to some good anti-seize for, say, stems bolts and hub / rotor bolts?


I am a babe in the woods. Fundamentally the right answer comes from deepest darkest science. Like this thread:

Anti-Seize Compound

My generic vote for little stuff like stem/rotors is locktite 243 because it tolerates the presence of grease and is still easy to undo. I've never had something sieze up when I've used it, but maybe I was lucky. I even use it on spoke/nipple interface.

Be careful with the copper anti-seize because it can cause corrosion, that's a special product for special high temperature situation.

For larger stuff like a threaded bottom bracket or a headset, where seizing would be the end of the world, I have a can of locktite 8009 that I slather all over everything.

If you're interested in fasteners and how they work, and thread lockers, 'n stuff then I recommend Carrol Smith's book:

"Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook"

Its available on amazon. I thought it was a fun read, the engineering behind fasteners is interesting and not very negotiable.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

COMTBR said:


> I've already got a tube of this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007M1WKS/ref=pd_luc_rh_sbs_02_01_t_ttl_lh?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1#customerReviews
> 
> Good?


Well... park usually sells good stuff. They make lots of exciting claims about it. Its a thick paste. I can't tell what is in it or how it behaves over time.

Personally I would rather pick my own stuff and buy from whoever actually designs and makes the product I want.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I use the same Park ASC, and have been using Ti bolts pretty liberally for about 6-7 years now.

That said, I swap out rotors (that use Ti bolts) frequently, and tend to swap out cockpit items yearly, so there's never been long term opportunity for bonds to form - so that could be the deciding factor.

euroford's post was an eye-opener.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

euroford said:


> on use of anti-seize...
> 
> I have replaced most of the bolts on my Mega 290 with ti and used grease on the threads which has always worked fine for me. However... when i went to pack my bike for our recent whistler/pnw trip I did find that my stem/bar bolts were seized. I had to drill them out, which wasn't that big of a deal, but i'd prefer not to have to do that again in the future.
> 
> These had only been in for about 400 miles of ridding, and I was really surprised this had happened. i'll be using anti-seize on all ti bolts in the future.


*runs to the garage to check if Ti bolts are seized*


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

eri said:


> You are somehow mature enough, and lucky enough, to be able to deal with the seized bolts like an adult, had a reasonable outcome.


well, I guess its all a matter of perspective! compared to getting the fuel rail plug out of the back of the cylinder head on my 7.3 diesel, no mechanical problem on a mountain bike is going to wreck my day!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's been years but I still have nightmares about building a fuel system and swapping injectors on my old 7.3 PSD (the source of the PSD in my username).

Anyways, I have thrown some considerable money at my 5.5 but enduro capability is the priority and necessitates some weight gain in a few situations. Frankly even with a 'no cost spared' sort of build, ready to ride it's not going to be less than 29.5#.

It is what it is, a size L Enduro bike with burly tires, bash guard, some tools, Avy cartridged 160 travel forks, a reservoir rear shock, etc....

I can honestly say that the bike has never ridden better and with some slightly less aggressive tires it feels very sprightly these days.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

nice, i'm pretty much in the same boat, ridding a 160mm 29er aggressively. I like to keep it as light as possible, but it has to be burly enough to thrash day after day.

Yeah, swapping injectors is a riot, i've done it twice in the last couple of years, also did headstuds and valve springs this year. fun stuff, but worth it to run a set of Swamps 250/200 hybrids.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I had a 683 rwhp 7.3 back in the day.

I have probably swapped in 6-8 sets of Swamp's injectors into 7.3s. I haven't spoken to those guys in years now but use to consider them diesel buddies.

Small world.

Now I drive a stock 2018 Canyon with the 2.8 diesel and am quite content with that.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

RS VR6 said:


> *runs to the garage to check if Ti bolts are seized*


And?


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> I had a 683 rwhp 7.3 back in the day.
> 
> I have probably swapped in 6-8 sets of Swamp's injectors into 7.3s. I haven't spoken to those guys in years now but use to consider them diesel buddies.


I spent the last year talking with Dave a whole lot, he was just great, taking my datalogs from drag runs and the dyno and revising my tunes, thanks to him my truck runs amazingly well. I gather they are busier than ever!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Well back to weight weenie stuff.

I ordered some new Magura Carbon Trail brakes but they're not here yet. I went ahead and ordered these Carbon Ti rotors as well and I just received them; they are very nice. And 180 mm should be enough brake for me except when I go to the park which isn't very often. To top it off these new 4 piston brakes are probably going to add a bit of weight over my current XTR brakes. But I needed more brake particularly in the front as I was overheating them on occasion.
Done several other things to lighten the bike up (i.e. s-works saddle, thru axles, Ti hardware, KS Lev Ci, fancy new Nobl wheels w/ bladed spokes, etc) but then several things I did actually added weight but I felt they were required for my application (i.e. Avy cartridge, , longer stem, gravity rear tire, etc) for drops and whatnot. To top it off I'm on reasonably light tires now, but my new set of tires are going to add another half pound.
Anyways it's not that light, I weighed it on a bathroom scale and ready to ride it's coming out about 29.5# with my pedals and tools in my Alpine frame bag.









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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Well back to weight weenie stuff.
> 
> I ordered some new Magura Carbon Trail brakes but they're not here yet. I went ahead and ordered these Carbon Ti rotors as well and I just received them; they are very nice. And 180 mm should be enough brake for me except when I go to the park which isn't very often. To top it off these new 4 piston brakes are probably going to add a bit of weight over my current XTR brakes. But I needed more brake particularly in the front as I was overheating them on occasion.
> 
> ...


Nice looking rotors!:thumbsup: Did you measure the thickness? I couldn't find it on CarbonTi's website, it only says to avoid going under 1.6 mm of wear, since you are going for Maguras, they recommend using a 2 mm thick rotor, these also look different (better) than the website images.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

doccoraje said:


> Nice looking rotors!:thumbsup: Did you measure the thickness? I couldn't find it on CarbonTi's website, it only says to avoid going under 1.6 mm of wear, since you are going for Maguras, they recommend using a 2 mm thick rotor, these also look different (better) than the website images.


They appear nicer because my hands appear so wrinkly! They are very pretty in person and feel like feathers.

I will measure them this evening and will post back but they seemed quite thin. I was wondering about that particular dimension but couldn't find Magura's requirements nor Carbon-Ti's dimension on their website so just sort if winged it.

Will update soon.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

They are 1.75mm thick. 
My old Srams are 1.85mm.

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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

Found it! at least about rotor wear 
http://www.magura.com/media/1885/mt_2016_en_web_06.pdf


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Wow those are some high-dollar rotors!
Beautiful!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Well back to weight weenie stuff.
> 
> I ordered some new Magura Carbon Trail brakes but they're not here yet. I went ahead and ordered these Carbon Ti rotors as well and I just received them; they are very nice. And 180 mm should be enough brake for me except when I go to the park which isn't very often. To top it off these new 4 piston brakes are probably going to add a bit of weight over my current XTR brakes. But I needed more brake particularly in the front as I was overheating them on occasion.
> Done several other things to lighten the bike up (i.e. s-works saddle, thru axles, Ti hardware, KS Lev Ci, fancy new Nobl wheels w/ bladed spokes, etc) but then several things I did actually added weight but I felt they were required for my application (i.e. Avy cartridge, , longer stem, gravity rear tire, etc) for drops and whatnot. To top it off I'm on reasonably light tires now, but my new set of tires are going to add another half pound.
> ...


I've found that the more open rotor designs, like AirRotors and Ai2s heat up crazy fast on sustained descents. They can offer good power at say the 180mm size, like I run on my fatbike, but any time I have to brake long on a descent causes them to heat up crazy fast. No such problems with icetech rotors on my other bikes, but the weight-weenie thing doesn't seem to be worth it in my experience for brake rotors. This is something you want to work and if you have the power, but not the fade-resistance, you either need bigger rotors (for more cooling surface area) or a system that cools better (like not-weight-weenie brake tracks on the rotor).


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The guy at Fairwheel bikes that sold me these rotors told me that he has ran them all and that he sells plenty of cheap rotors that are just as light and he has them in stock (I waited for almost 3 months to get these specific rotors). But he was pretty clear that after personally trying them all the Carbon Ti rotors are the only ones that can take the heat of full Enduro riding and also doesn't eat pads up (because of the braking surface being overly drilled).

Of course I would have rather spent $40 a rotor for the same weight. But maintaining max performance is definitely the priority and it appears the Carbon Ti rotors have about as much heat sink as any OEM rotor (well, 60% of it anyways).

I'd be bummed if these rotors couldn't hold up. I don't encounter sustained downhills, the longest ones are maybe 7-8 minutes of general shredding and still have some pedaling involved, around here.

I will swap to a large inexpensive 202mm rotor for bike park days (which are rare for me, like once every 2 years)

I have ran lighter tires and have had to go back to heavier tires for reliability and traction.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'd be bummed if these rotors couldn't hold up. I don't encounter sustained downhills, the longest ones are maybe 7-8 minutes of general shredding and still have some pedaling involved, around here.


It's not the time really, it's the angle and how much you have to use the brakes on that slope. On some you can do a lot of on and off braking to bleed speed, but on others, you have to be on the brakes for relatively long periods of time at steep angles. Those "long periods of time" may only be 10-20 seconds, vs. on a shorter version of the same with more grade changes you could brake for a couple seconds and have a few seconds for them to cool.

I'm not sure the heat properties of titanium are desirable at all for rotors, notice they aren't used anywhere in motorsports, those are either steel or carbon-carbon (not carbon fiber). You WANT to generate heat, because that's your stopping power, converting your KE to heat. If the rotors don't heat up, that means the pads, seals and caliper will reach unsustainable temperatures.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Only the buttons are titanium. The rotor surface is some kind of fancy Steel.

We don't have that sort of sustained braking around here, the only place I've encountered that is at Angel Fire New Mexico Bike Park.

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Only the buttons are titanium. The rotor surface is some kind of fancy Steel.
> 
> We don't have that sort of sustained braking around here, the only place I've encountered that is at Angel Fire New Mexico Bike Park.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Sorry, thought the brake track was Ti.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Titanium brake rotor bolts, should I use Loctite or should I use anti seize on them? Thank you.

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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Titanium brake rotor bolts, should I use Loctite or should I use anti seize on them? Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Loctite. I tried anti-seize. SEVERAL bolts came loose! 

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## tangerineowl (Nov 18, 2013)

Ti mating to alu: After a bit of reading, it seems that Nickel anti-seize is the correct application.

and Carbon-ti has some nice stuff


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

FishMan473 said:


> Loctite. I tried anti-seize. SEVERAL bolts came loose!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I've been using nickel anti-seize for years on my Ti rotor bolts and have never had one come loose.

It's unclear if Loctite is sufficient to prevent galvanic corrosion.


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

FYI, from my Canfield Riot.
Toronto Cycles had some headset spacers that matched the ano on my links and shock, so while I was there...

Shock bolts:
Stock 8x40mm = 17g, ti = 9g
Stock 8x50mm = 20g, ti = 12g
-16g

Rear Derailleur Hanger bolts:
Edited out-wrong size


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm pretty excited I got my large Yeti Turq 5.5 to weigh 29 lb, when I remove my tool roll. That includes a gravity tire in the rear, 4 piston brakes F&R and 180 rotors, Avalanche cartridges, X2 shock, a 175 dropper, Alpine threadworks bag installed, a long stem that I prefer, and flat pedals. 

That's a very pleasing weight for an Enduro rig to me. I might need to invest in some super lightweight tools, my Park tool is really heavy.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Swapped brakes, bars, and multi-tool. Best and lightest I could buy that I felt would not compromise my application. 
Bike is tits. (Edited 2.5 Maxxis tires, flat pedals, with tools in the Alpine bag, X2 shock, etc. Weight includes everything. 

(Edited as I messed up the conversion last time) 29# ready to ride!!!

Very pleased. 

Bike is 100% done. 

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## RonSonic (Jan 8, 2005)

eri said:


> If you're interested in fasteners and how they work, and thread lockers, 'n stuff then I recommend Carrol Smith's book:
> 
> "Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook"
> 
> Its available on amazon. I thought it was a fun read, the engineering behind fasteners is interesting and not very negotiable.


Carroll Smith is one of my all-time favorite non-fiction writers. So clear and practical without ignoring the theory behind it. There's a foreword in one that's sustained me in many a tough situation:

"It is an inanimate object therefor it must, eventually, respond to reason."


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## Pedal to the Metal (Sep 5, 2019)

A number of years ago I was riding northbound on the Great Divide Trail. I had put a new rack on and hadn't got Ti bolts for it yet. Downhilling Union Pass, near Dubois Wyoming one morning (if any of you know, you know),one of the worst washboard roads in the world, I snapped a bottom rack bolt. Rack base fell into spokes, tore up my front wheel, broke rack. Cost me $600 and 3 days off in Lander. I am in support of the expense of Ti bolts for things like tour bikes and bikepacking bikes. I recently retired my old Ritchey that has been around the globe and a half or so. Early on, carrying heavy loads over rough terrain I had broken a handful of steel and stainless bolts on rack points of contact. I am in the habit of carrying a couple extra, and always get em 1/4 longer than needed so they protrude out the back of the lug a little if possible.* Broken bolts has only happened a handful of times, but its unneccessary with the addition of multiple $6 each Ti bolts. My new Krampus set up will have a total of 34 Ti bolts. Just because. Not for bling, not for weight savings, but strength and precision. Yes, please use an anti sieze/gall compound on your bolts and use a torque wrench. All of my rack and cage bolts sit nicely with about 12# torque on aluminum washers. 

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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm glad you found something that works but theres a bit of magical thinking going on. Rack bolts is tough because theyre given shear, not how bolts should be used. But... If you want to misuse bolts like this you should use strong ones, and that means steel. Ti can be used to save weight when its strong enough, never is ti stronger than the same quality steel bolt. Sure, ti is a miracle metal but it isnt stronger or tougher than steel at least at bicycle temperatures.

If these ti bolts arent breaking then you've found a successful and lighter-weight solution.


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## Pedal to the Metal (Sep 5, 2019)

I haven't broke a Ti bolt yet, and I agree with with you about shear strength. Steel does in fact have a higher shear but at the time I started using Ti, it was 'cool' (a couple friends mentioned shear and expense and thought I was nuts) Agreed, steel would be a less expensive option. Will post pics of new build when done with all sorts of Ti hardware. 
-
Happy Saturday.



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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Pedal to the Metal said:


> I haven't broke a Ti bolt yet, and I agree with with you about shear strength. Steel does in fact have a higher shear but at the time I started using Ti, it was 'cool' (a couple friends mentioned shear and expense and thought I was nuts) Agreed, steel would be a less expensive option. Will post pics of new build when done with all sorts of Ti hardware.
> -
> Happy Saturday.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S367VL using ****************android_app_mtbr


Not just shear strength, Good bolt Steel has better strength in every way than any titanium. And toughness. Steel is amazing stuff at bicyclevtemperatures.

I think the biggest improvement for a bolt in shear is to avoid loading the threads sideways, get a bolt that only has threads where fastener uses them.

There's uncountable ways to make flawed bolts, I suspect your original steel units must have been bs.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

There was a time in the late 90s where Titanium seemed to get the reputation as some sort of mythical magical wonder-material, when the bikes made from it actually crack at higher rates due to the difficulty of welding and brittle properties of Ti, not to mention all of the same reasons that other bikes crack, poor design/flaws, over-stress, etc. It has some applications, but it's limited in it's usefulness, if you go back and read over this entire thread.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've been buying Ti bolts on Alibaba. I like the rainbow colors!

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## bcriverjunky (Jul 8, 2014)

I buy quite a bit from this place. https://www.aliexpress.com/store/314699?spm=0.8937474.0.0.3a392e0eDjxsYJ


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## sea_dude (Oct 2, 2019)

Dropped 30 grams with the ti shock and pivot bolts from better bolts. https://betterbolts.com/collections/frontpage/products/santa-cruz-pivot-and-suspension-bolt-pack-raw


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