# New Switchblade Frame...



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

... or why does it always rain on me???


Well, fellas... Here are the so awaited pics of my new ride...


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

*Mo' pics....*

Some more....

1.- My top mech doing an inspection
2.- Serial Number
3.- 9 bucks BB... for those who are too young to know how a square taper bottom bracket looks like
4.- Warp... RIP.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

*Now the explanation...*

...why of the "why does it always rain on me??"

Trying to try in the BB in the BB shell, I discovered this flat spot on the BB shell. The threads are distorted and the BB doesn't go in.

Bummer.

Is not that bad... nothing a good ream can't solve. I need to take it to a shop to get the threads prepped. I'll try with Abel and Transvision... wish me luck as I don't know how common is for a shop to do this. Hopefully I'll get it sorted by this weekend.

Check out the pics.

I can't blame the seller after so many miles of transportation... who knows. I'll drop him a line anyway and see what he says, but I don't hold much hopes. I just hope to have it reamed and faced to mount the BB.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> I can't blame the seller after so many miles of transportation...


Dude: there is no way in hell that BB was damaged in transport. It came in a bike box filled with poliurethane beans and it was very well packed. I know 'cause I dropped it from like 3 floors to test it 

Seriusly, talk to the seller.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

I'm no engineer and not too good at mech. stuff, so I can't really see where it's wrong  I hope you can fix it without any problem. I hope the guys at Transvision can help you, I haven't used their service a lot, but the ones I did they left the bike working well and very reasonable priced.

If you Transvision can't fix it, maybe ask Bike stop (yep, the guys that sold Specialized). They really fixed my stumpy when I took it for service. Unfortunately, they are far from you (viaducto Tlalpan and Division del Norte).

Good luck man!


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Oh man, that sucks.

Yeah, I hope somebody has the reaming tool, and it's sharp, and they know how to use the damn thing.

Have you called around to see who might be able to do it?

We've got to see that bike get dirty next weekend!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> Oh man, that sucks.
> 
> Yeah, I hope somebody has the reaming tool, and it's sharp, and they know how to use the damn thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks guys for the kind support...

Mada... I just did. He says it wasn't there, bla, bla, bla... Hard to prove after two transportations. Besides, apart from sharing cost for repair (??) what else can I force him to do? I know you were careful... I would let my kid drop to the floor if I had to save a bike frame from dropping too. But those arseholes at the airport just get the plane stuffed in the least time possible without care or remorse.

Roberto... I'll call around today. I just discovered it last night. I'll check it out. Transivion, Abel (Soho bikes) and some other should have the tool. I don't think this is the only high-end frame that has been serviced here.

Matt... I share your fears. I was watching parktool site and it's a no brainer. But at work I learned the hard way that people is not as smart as I thought they are. I could do it myself if I had the dumb tap tool. Benotto has it... but it's freaking expensive. It's a shop tool. So far, Abel is the one that inspires more confidence to me (the same guy that is at Chiluca on Sundays with a bike stand doing repairs). His wife's bike is a Salsa with a Marathon Race on... and no-nonsense bits all around. Looks like knowledgeable.

Transvision is said to have a new set of Park Tool tooling... those should be sharp. You don't tap BB's everyday.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Oh yeah, by the way, your frame looks beautiful.

And Mini-Warp is huge!


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Have you noticed how nice that saddle looks?

I heard that serial number was part of a defective batch from Titus a way back, around 2002 or something, check if you have something on the BB shell though, it may be a good idea. 

j/k

Really nice bike!


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*Chin up, bro!*

Definitely a bummer that the threads have a flat spot. As you said, it should be pretty simple to fix, not that it's right that the problem existed in the first place. My guess is the seller probably didn't realize it was there. FWIW, the frame looks great, and I'm sure you'll get things sorted out soon.

Best wishes as always,

Bob


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> Definitely a bummer that the threads have a flat spot. As you said, it should be pretty simple to fix, not that it's right that the problem existed in the first place. My guess is the seller probably didn't realize it was there. FWIW, the frame looks great, and I'm sure you'll get things sorted out soon.
> 
> Best wishes as always,
> 
> Bob


Well, yeah. This morning I used my BB tool and was able to thread in like 1 and a half thread by hand... but I didn't wanted to go beyond that. The BB is steel and can make easily its way thru the aluminum.

A tap can do the trick. And I think it doesn't even has to be a very sharp one.

Tapping and facing tool here goes for close to 700 bucks... a Park Tool one, that is.


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## ritopc (Jul 3, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Dude: there is no way in hell that BB was damaged in transport. It came in a bike box filled with poliurethane beans and it was very well packed. I know 'cause I dropped it from like 3 floors to test it
> 
> Seriusly, talk to the seller.


It doesn't look like the damage was done due to bad handling during transportation. As far as I can see, even the paint is damaged (might be the lighting reflex what I am looking, though); paint could only be damaged due to a direct hitting with something hard. I really doubt that could happened hitting a frame that is actually inside the box (filled with poliurethane beans).

Anyways, it shouldn't be a problem to fix it, and you´ll be riding that beauty soon.

Congrats on the bike, nice ride you got!!!!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ritopc said:


> It doesn't look like the damage was done due to bad handling during transportation. As far as I can see, even the paint is damaged (might be the lighting reflex what I am looking, though); paint could only be damaged due to a direct hitting with something hard. I really doubt that could happened hitting a frame that is actually inside the box (filled with poliurethane beans).
> 
> Anyways, it shouldn't be a problem to fix it, and you´ll be riding that beauty soon.
> 
> Congrats on the bike, nice ride you got!!!!


It's not paint... it's an anodized finish. It can get away with rubbing, which can happen if the cardboard (or beans or whatever) were rubbing for a long time. There's a hit involved, that's for sure.

Anyway... I just called Abel from Soho bikes and he'll be picking the frame up anytime next week (he can pick up the bike at your place) and get the job done. He has the tools but he's leaving to Hidalgo this weekend.

Thanks for the props on the bike (and the baby), guys!!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

*Little update...*

OK... Steel is the noblest of metals and aluminum is not even close to its strenght.

With the extractor, grease, a lot of patience and some brute force I was able to drive the BB inside position. (hhhmmmm it reminds me of a .... uh, nevermind)

Next step, will be to get a 1/2" driver (Tigerdog, would you oblige?), and grease+teflon tape the BB in place.

No need for silly reaming. It was only the very first thread the one that was distorted, but steel brought it to its knees.

Now I agree with Clyde's opinion that the seller didn't realized about it if it was ever there while he shipped it. He probably felt the thread have some resistance, but drove the thing out with elbow grease.

So far... this week will see my build completed.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> OK... Steel is the noblest of metals and aluminum is not even close to its strenght.
> 
> With the extractor, grease, a lot of patience and some brute force I was able to drive the BB inside position. (hhhmmmm it reminds me of a .... uh, nevermind)
> 
> ...


That's great news.

Come on over. I've also got anti-seize which I always use on BBs rather than grease. Never needed to use tape myself.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> OK... Steel is the noblest of metals and aluminum is not even close to its strenght.
> 
> With the extractor, grease, a lot of patience and some brute force I was able to drive the BB inside position. (hhhmmmm it reminds me of a .... uh, nevermind)
> 
> ...


Does this mean we will see your Titus this sunday?


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> Does this mean we will see your Titus this sunday?


Don't think Warp (or should we now call him Blade2004?) is going to make it tomorrow.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Tiger's right....

No riding for me tomorrow... Family's first (this sunday  )

But for next weekend I'll be hitting the trails on-board that sweetblade... and my recently modded Phaon (only one spring now... more travel and plushness)

Tiger... BTW... Nice new avatar. The old one looked like Pornstar's gay posts..


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Tiger's right....
> 
> No riding for me tomorrow... Family's first (this sunday  )
> 
> ...


Check my thread in the Mods forum.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> Check my thread in the Mods forum.


Those gears are starting to move....


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## aids (Nov 8, 2005)

Hey..I blame the pinche esquinkly mechanic...!!

What the hell is a BB anyway? ball bearing?

And I can´t see you going anywhere..they forgot the bit that the front wheel goes on!!!


She´s a nice looking sushi roll ya got there...now I´ll be even more behind and blinded by all the shiney bling around me.

I´m gonna cover my old girl in shiney foil and put tits --oops titus on it to keep up...

You lucky lucky bastard..!!


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Ooooooooh, looks reeeeeaaaaal pudry! Congrats Tit! Ooops, I mean Warp!   

More pics. But you already know that.

BTW - nice touch with your mech's initial inspection. I'm sure there's a Will being updated, right?


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

aids said:


> Hey..I blame the pinche esquinkly mechanic...!!
> 
> What the hell is a BB anyway? ball bearing?
> 
> ...


Aids... BB = Bottom Bracket, the thingy that carries the crank's spindle and bearings.

How do you call it in 'Zylander'??

BTW.... I jusr recieved a "Ground Effect" catalogue. Just to make you feel some nostalgia for the homeland.

Andrew... My Will is already updated. The heir takes it all!!  With his little hands he's already able to open latch-type locks. You'd be surprised watching him banging the bike (the Warp corpse) with a 10" adjustable wrench... He seems to have some mechanical abilities or just like the same things as "Dad". One year and one month old and he's already trying to put things together... time to buy some Lego stuff or those match-block-in-a-hole toys.


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> Andrew... My Will is already updated. The heir takes it all!!  With his little hands he's already able to open latch-type locks. You'd be surprised watching him banging the bike (the Warp corpse) with a 10" adjustable wrench... He seems to have some mechanical abilities or just like the same things as "Dad". One year and one month old and he's already trying to put things together... time to buy some Lego stuff or those match-block-in-a-hole toys.


Lego ROCKS man!!!!!!! It still does wonders for my mechanical aptitude.         (enough for ya?)


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## Limon (Jan 26, 2004)

*bienvenido al mundo del Titus!*

I'm riding my third racer x since 99' and loving it, my first was 80 mil front and back first v brakes 22 pounds then disk brakes around 25 pounds, second was 100 mil front and back aluminum frame first disk brakes 23 pounds then v brakes under 20 pounds, now I have the ti/exogrid with disk brakes around 21 pounds, it never ends!
this summer I might make it to San Luis Potosi maybe I can hookup with you guys for a ride.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

*Maiden Ride!!!*

So... after finishing the build at sunday *1:14 AM*, I finally got to ride this new toy.

I joined Rocky_Rene for a "short ride" as I had to be back early... but didn't wanted to lose the chance to ride. Up Chiluca we rode (and back down).

Weather was plain perfect!! Only drawbacks were a lot of cars, people and stuff as there was a rave in there. Aids will write the review for that one.

We went from trailhead to Espiritu Santo by the beaten path of Tierra Roja and then across the forest. We did the same thing back, just swapped Tierra Roja for Eses.

I sucked big time, to the point of boring Rene... to whom I thank for his patience.

The new frame rocks!!! It's lighter, it's solid, pedals just right even if that's not its forte. Where it did really shined was singletrack! This thing is a serious singletrack and garly stuff weapon.

Pedalling
No bob and energetic with the 5th element. The Blue Groove Sticky provided by Mr. Tigerdog (thanks, bro!) is very nice. It all made for an nice rolling package, penalised only by my choice of wide tires.

The HL rear gets you hooked to the soil while pedaling over rough stuff. It could be even better but the 5th was a bit harsh and this limited available traction.

Geometry is a bit weird. It's not the best climber and not the best descender... but it rides EXCELLENT!!

It made short work of the Eses.... not with flying colors, but very good indeed.

Braking
It felt weird not having the rear end squatting when the rear was applied... coming from a single pivot, this is VERY evident. The gain in traction is very welcome though. People coming from a HT may not notice the difference as the HT's don't squat... but I noticed it. Again, what you loose in riding geometry, you get it back from available traction.

Cornering
"This thing corners as if it's on rails and countersteers like a Ducati" 
Nah, seriously, it's very nice an balanced. It requires little body input fore-aft and its stiffness is more niticeable in off-camber sections. The sucker just goes where you point it without complains.

A bit too quick maybe for steep stuff, but making very little compromises. The Head angle of the Warp (with the Magura Phaon) was slacker and it felt better descending and on fast corners.

The Blade is just better everywhere else for a wide margin

On the important bits (both shocks)...

*The 5th Element* is a nice good shock. I felt it a bit stiff, even with 30% sag but I think I still have to play with the IFP chamber pressure. It was at 60PSI, roughly; while the main chamber was a pale 90PSI. The 5th feels very nice in the late face of bumps where it takes the impact with the soil and rebounds nicely without bucking you up and big stuff where you basically forget there's a shock in there. Ripples, stutter bumps and such are not its cup o'tea. It prefers to propel you forwards without bobbing. I don't know how an air shock should feel like... but it felt harsh compared to my former coil-over.

I had to play a bit with the valve core on the IFP chamber as not any pump could do the job... now any pump will do. A similar thing is in order for the main spring chamber but it'll come later. It just works now.

*The Maggie Phaon*... I operated on it last week (while I was dreaming of riding) and remove one of the springs and left it with basically the same configuration as a Zoke MX (One spring with preload, damper and travel adjustment). Now there's an empty leg with just the travel adjustment which works with no spring and the spring-damper assy on the other leg. I'm in love with that fork!!! It's not plush yet, but it feels WAY MUCH BETTER than before. I'm using a nice amount of travel and tweaking it a bit more I could get even more. The stroke is all about control both in and out... still feeling bottomless. It bobs and it dives a little bit... but who cares? In any case neither of both are negative traits. The Travel Adjustment is nice and useful... but I think the ETA is perfection 

Zip ties and my caliper say that I used 110mm both front and rear... which speaks very good about balance... And I sincerely would had to be pointed to my head with a gun to accept that I need more travel....

More to come later...


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Pictures?


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> Pictures?


Sorry... both of my photographers had the sunday off...


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Tigerdog: did you and Rzozaya hit SNT this sunday?


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Tigerdog: did you and Rzozaya hit SNT this sunday?


No, and my apologies to all (545 and tacubaya - sorry guys), I really wanted to ride. I think it ended up being one of those weekends where a lot of people had to cancel at the last minute.


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Warp2003 said:


> Sorry... both of my photographers had the sunday off...


Wish I could have seen her highness on her maiden voyage. Glad you got it all together. Late night, huh? How did it work out with the headset?


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> Wish I could have seen her highness on her maiden voyage. Glad you got it all together. Late night, huh? How did it work out with the headset?


It went smooove... I took the frames to Ciclo UZI polanco. Had to grab cabs as the arsehole policemen at the Metro Rosario entrance didn't allowed me to go in if the 'bikes' weren't wrapped in cardboard or something... wouldn't I was to scratch the Metro with my Aluminum bikes?? I understand the measure and I stuck to it. I just find it pointless as I wouldn't like to bang my high-endish frames against the metro and damage them.

The shop didn't actually have the extracting tool. But the wrench in there tapped it nicely with some drive extension. Really carefully. He had a helper there who catched the cups. But it was a "just in case" measure as there's a rubber matt on the floor and benchtop.

Then he pulled a Park (??) press and put it in. Literally, five minutes job. He charged 20 pesos, I gave him 50.

I got home and couldn't do a thing until my wife left for school at 1:00PM. I started servicing the rear hub which took the longest of all works I did. I had to stop as my baby woke up.

While my Mini-Warp was playing around and not paying attention to daddy, I got the cables, brakes and derrailleurs put in place. Rocky_Rene came to my messy place to pick up some stuff and gave me a hand with the 5th Element as I re-positioned the valve core on the IFP chamber. It was too deep so it couldn't be reached by the pump stem. It's a drunk-monkey-can-do-it-too fix that caused many warranty returns to Progressive.

By this point (like 4:00pm) Mini-Warp wanted daddy's attention and had to stop until after wife got home and we had dinner (9:30PM)...

Finished reassembly or rear wheel. BTW, Shimano Sora's road group freewheel is not compatible with Shimano Deore. The Sora has a slightly different desing that would make it stick out too much on a Deore hub.

The hard part came... setting and adjusting brakes. Cutting short a hose, do a semi-bleed, reposition rear caliper with 1.2mm shimming. Etc. Finished by midnight.

Then, adjusting gears and checking up sag and set-up of shocks and lubing chain... finished exhausted by 1:14AM of sunday.

As with any new bike, there's still work to do.
- Rear shifting cable needs either shortening or just fastening to shock rocker at shock area. It rubbed my right calf during the ride.
- Shock needs toying with IFP pressure.
- Wheels are desperately in the need of tensoning, dishing (rear one)and trueing.
- A definitive solution for rear brake hose routing is needed. Now it's held in place by hook and loop straps.
- Front derrailleur needs proper adjustment.
- BB developed a knocking sound corresponding with each non-drive sound stroke. Bad - defective - bearings?? Improper torque??


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## Call_me_Clyde (Oct 27, 2004)

*Nice report*



Warp2003 said:


> So... after finishing the build at sunday *1:14 AM*, I finally got to ride this new toy.
> 
> *The 5th Element* is a nice good shock. I felt it a bit stiff, even with 30% sag but I think I still have to play with the IFP chamber pressure. It was at 60PSI, roughly; while the main chamber was a pale 90PSI. The 5th feels very nice in the late face of bumps where it takes the impact with the soil and rebounds nicely without bucking you up and big stuff where you basically forget there's a shock in there. Ripples, stutter bumps and such are not its cup o'tea. It prefers to propel you forwards without bobbing. I don't know how an air shock should feel like... but it felt harsh compared to my former coil-over.
> 
> ...


Glad to see the frame is living up to it's expectations, and even happeier to see the positive things you're saying about the 5th and the Maggie. Pondering hanging on to the 5th at this point, or are you still thinking of putting something different on the bike?

Bob


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Call_me_Clyde said:


> Glad to see the frame is living up to it's expectations, and even happeier to see the positive things you're saying about the 5th and the Maggie. Pondering hanging on to the 5th at this point, or are you still thinking of putting something different on the bike?
> 
> Bob


I can't say much... but MAYBE it's not a good idea to hold a 5th element for the long term. Said by someone who knows. Not me.

As for the Magura... killer fork. The only plastic thing I've found in it is the rebound piston. All the freaking thing is completely user accesible and no special tools required. Assembly could be made by a drunk-monkey with only two fingers on each hand. It's all shims and could be tuned by user if wanted/needed. The bleed port is rather big, so it sports a hige range of tuning.

It takes a 27mm spanner (open end wrench for americans) or adjustable wrench (or crescent for americans), a flat screwdriver, a 9mm wrench and 1.5mm, 6mm and 8mm allen keys (or wrenches, whatever you call them) to totally overhaul them.

Zokes are good in design and serviceability.
Manitou's are great in that regard.
Magura is just a step above. Think Manitou serviceability with Zoke quality.


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

Warp

Congrats on the new ride mate and great avatar.
Now, what's happening with the old Warp frame? Will it be mini-warp's first full susser?
Maybe you can rig up some training wheels?

It certainly takes a while to get used to a new ride.
Can't wait to see the final build pic's.

Cheers


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

Hopefully there will still be a HL Titus when Mini-Warp gets his trike. My greatest fear is Titus doing a Turner.



Warp2003 said:


> Many Thanks AM!!
> 
> Avatar courtesy of Tigerdog and it's copyrighted and patented. The patent protection will be enforced a la Tony Ellsworth.
> 
> ...


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> Warp
> 
> Congrats on the new ride mate and great avatar.
> Now, what's happening with the old Warp frame? Will it be mini-warp's first full susser?
> ...


Many Thanks AM!!

Avatar courtesy of Tigerdog and it's copyrighted and patented. The patent protection will be enforced a la Tony Ellsworth.

The old Warp frame got sold and the funds raised were donated to the humanitary "Pay-the-Switchblade-Frame" Foundation. 

Mini-Warp will get a Titus Exo-Grid custom trike with HL on each rear wheel ... 

I feel bad about not neing able to post pics. I don't own a camera and my camera-borrowing friend is outta town.

And yes... It will take me some time to get used to a correct geometry. The Switchblade feels just right, but it's still a stranger to me.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> Hopefully there will still be a HL Titus when Mini-Warp gets his trike. My greatest fear is Titus doing a Turner.


Your greatest fear sounds like a compliment actually...

I still think the HL is overrated. Yeah, it's nice... so do many other suspension types out there.

Quad-Link, Maestro and DW-Link and TNT are systems on par or superior.

The performance of a bike lies in the execution of the construction. A Foes is a vulgar single pivot, but you wouldn't dare to compare it against a Warp, would you??

Titus, Ventana and Turner are up there. All of them making incredible bikes. Even if the geometries or suspension designs seem weird or sub-par on paper, you have to ride one to realize Chris Cocalis, David Turner and Sherwood Gibson really know what they're doing. Trust me.

Turner used to make a great bike before the swap to TNT... they still make a hell of a fine bike after that.

Titus used to make a great bike before sending some production overseas... they still make a hell of a great bike after that.

EDIT... I forgot to mention... a HL has more traction when braking. True. But it also has this effect of sending your weight further forwards than on a SP. Braking on a steep downhill section feels like OTB. The squatting of the SP helps the bike to equilibrate the mass transfer a little bit. At the end, every design has pros/cons


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

That was a good observation you made. Very interested to hear observations made by people who GO TO HL. Traction is a major bonus on a full suspension. I prefer a SP based design personally, but it needs to be a well refined design to get the traction. If I could get my hands on a TNT Turner!

I also believe the frame geoemetry plays just a big role as suspension. The VT's SP was dialed in very well (with SPV), but the cockpit needs some work (along with the horrible flexy link driven rocker design). I have rode differnt frame sizes, but I always feel like I'm on top of the VT instead of 'in it'. This is where manufacturers like SC shine (busting for a ride on a Nomad). Feeling in the bike gives you heaps of confidence.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

All Mountain said:


> If I could get my hands on a TNT Turner!.


How tall are you? Maybe I can help.

I have ridden a HL Flux for most of last year and a TNT Spot since the beggining of this year, and alghough they are different bikes with different components and geometries I can really tell you that I am not missing anything on the TNT, I can't even feel the famous brake dive. All I can tell is that its a great handling bike, that its very efficient when climbing and that it can stop on a dime (the Maguras are more powerful than my Juicys). Honestly, I am very far from reaching the bike's limits so I don't think I will ever feel TNTs limit.

A difference I HAVE felt though: (and I don't know if it has anything to do with TNT) when going downhill, when I hit the brakes hard, initially there is a feeling that there is air in the brake hoses because the rear brake feel locked for a second. That only lasts a second and it could very well be that I need to bleed my brakes, but I am also thinking it could have something to do with the brake jack (which I dont notice in any other form). What do you think Warp?

My conclusion is that there are no magic solutions out there, just good and bad executions of different alternatives. I think that as long as you choose the right implementation of a particular design, a bike can ride like a dream but always have some compromises. In my case, I am far from reaching the "compromise" on the Spot.

Cheers,

Madaleno


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> A difference I HAVE felt though: (and I don't know if it has anything to do with TNT) when going downhill, when I hit the brakes hard, initially there is a feeling that there is air in the brake hoses because the rear brake feel locked for a second. That only lasts a second and it could very well be that I need to bleed my brakes, but I am also thinking it could have something to do with the brake jack (which I dont notice in any other form). What do you think Warp?
> 
> Madaleno


Mada,

I think I'm not following you fully... does the brake feels it locks the wheel or it feels like doing nothing??

If the rear wheel feels like locking up when you brake, that's brake squatting. Is like if suddenly pulled your wheel.

If you feel the brake doing nothing, you have air in your lines. I have a Magura Bleed kit if you need bleeding your brakes.

Brake jacking is the opposite... you feel the rear end extending wanting to send you over the bars.


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

All Mountain said:


> That was a good observation you made. Very interested to hear observations made by people who GO TO HL. Traction is a major bonus on a full suspension. I prefer a SP based design personally, but it needs to be a well refined design to get the traction. If I could get my hands on a TNT Turner!
> 
> I also believe the frame geoemetry plays just a big role as suspension. The VT's SP was dialed in very well (with SPV), but the cockpit needs some work (along with the horrible flexy link driven rocker design). I have rode differnt frame sizes, but I always feel like I'm on top of the VT instead of 'in it'. This is where manufacturers like SC shine (busting for a ride on a Nomad). Feeling in the bike gives you heaps of confidence.


hmmmm.... if you don't want to feel like your riding on top of the bike, you could reevaluate SC... I test rode a Blur, really liked it, but I felt that the bike felt kind of detached from the road. I have owned 3 FS bikes: a single-pivot (Jekyll), and 2 HL (Stumpjumper FSR and Moto Lite). I have really liked the way all my bikes have behaved pretty well. I'm not that good at 'distinguishing' difference between designs.... maybe if I put special attention, but usually, I'm just trying to get down in one piece as to divert my attention to details.

Geometry, from my point of view, would play more into how a bike feels that the specific suspension design. That's why I don't think that Linkage (or whatever the software is called) is a good way to judge a bike behaviour.

I have also tested a Prophet, but I prefered the Jekyll over the Prophet, don't ask me why, I guess it just went more into how I ride. The bike I love the most is my Moto Lite. I think if I would be forced (what would force me, UGI???) to buy another bike, I would go to another Moto Lite. So maybe, just some upgrades to the awesome bike I ride. If Titus had to go to SP, it wouldn't scare me... much  I like the bike pretty much as it is.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> hmmmm.... if you don't want to feel like your riding on top of the bike, you could reevaluate SC... I test rode a Blur, really liked it, but I felt that the bike felt kind of detached from the road.


I guess he meant that he didn't feel comfortable in the cockpit of the VT. It's not like when you have a correct sized bike where you feel like piloting a motorcycle. You feel IN the bike. the controls, cranks and pedals feel as an extension of your body and the bike seems to react to thought orders. He felt like riding a horse which you ride on top of it and need to have to use much body english to make go where you go and the bike seems to have a life of its own.

The VT is a bike ideal for people with long legs and short torso (women?) as apparently Giant pooped it up with the design and the top tube lenght is between 0.25 to 0.5 inches short for the size (Medium was 22.5!!) without having longer chainstays and slacker head angle like a Santa Cruz.


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## All Mountain (Dec 9, 2005)

I've got short legs and long torso. I tried 110 stem but it made things bad downhill. Had to go back to 90 stem. Warp summed it up for me, and must be why I seem to gravitate towards SC geoemtry. I always wished the VT HA was steeper (even got rid of Black forks and replaced with Minute, which was 15mm taller and better). Felt that the chainstays could be a tad longer, but never knew why. My top tube (measured with a level to keep flat) does not measure what Giant says it does, it's shorter by 0.5 inch. The VT also sits very high for a trail bike. 

Geometry is very important when selecting a new bike. If I were to buy a new bike now, I would forget about suspension designs and look for the geometry I want. Most suspension designs these days are very refined and do the job.


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> Mada,
> 
> I think I'm not following you fully... does the brake feels it locks the wheel or it feels like doing nothing??
> 
> ...


Wow, this thread is all over the place. I suspect I have a bit of air in my lines since the levers lock for 1-2 seconds and then I get the great modulation of the Maguras. I will however, take more notice to see if I can feel the famous brake dive.

Cheers,

Madaleno


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Wow, this thread is all over the place. I suspect I have a bit of air in my lines since the levers lock for 1-2 seconds and then I get the great modulation of the Maguras. I will however, take more notice to see if I can feel the famous brake dive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Madaleno


Nope. Air in the lines feels like "Look Ma'!!! No brakes!!!"... and the more you pull the lever, the less braking you feel.

What you feel is a sudden loss of traction at the rear end... maybe your first pull is too strong and then you start to modulate. May your Juicy's be a little weaker at the beginning of the stroke or need a longer pull on the lever??

Maybe is the dreaded brake squat from Single Pivots?? I will pass judgement until further testing.

Switch to Magura on both bikes and get used to them...


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

Interesting about the "sitting on" and "sitting in" thing. I've owned 4 Specialized hardtails over the years. The Big S are notorious for low BBs, but I've always liked their geometry and I thought the low BB helped contribute to the "sitting in" feeling. I was a bit concerned when I moved to a Turner frame that I wouldn't get that same feeling, but if anything I feel more "in" the bike now.

It's all such a subjective area and there aren't any magical golden numbers. There could be many different designs which would work for an individual, yet have different strong points. One of the things I love about bikes is that they're all so different.

I really liked the look of the blur when it first came out, but it felt odd to me just sitting on it in the shop. TT maybe too short? They may have tweaked them since the first batch, I don't know. I'd love to try a MotoLite in my size, and a Yeti 575, and a 5 Spot, and a Hollowpoint and a... Aaaaargh.

Actually, very happy with my bike as it is right now. Although some Martas or Hopes would be nice. Hmm, maybe a X9 rear mech. Of course then I'd need the triggers, ooh and what about a.... Oh, time for my medication again... Nurse!


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

tigerdog said:


> Actually, very happy with my bike as it is right now. Although some Martas or Hopes would be nice. Hmm, maybe a X9 rear mech. Of course then I'd need the triggers, ooh and what about a.... Oh, time for my medication again... Nurse!


Hahahahaha, UGI is hitting preety hard huh?


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

Warp2003 said:


> What you feel is a sudden loss of traction at the rear end... maybe your first pull is too strong and then you start to modulate. May your Juicy's be a little weaker at the beginning of the stroke or need a longer pull on the lever??


Doesn't feel like a loss of traction since I don't skid and the feeling only lasts for a second. I am almost positive it is a brake issue (possibly a small bubble of air somewhere?)

Anyway, I will keep you posted

Madaleno

BTW Tigerdog: A friend of mine works at the American School so now I know what you do!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> Doesn't feel like a loss of traction since I don't skid and the feeling only lasts for a second. I am almost positive it is a brake issue (possibly a small bubble of air somewhere?)


Maybe a problem with your brakes... but not air. I'm 100% positive. Air in the lines is always lack of power and a long lever throw in the best case.

Take into account that different pads/rotors have different engagement and ones bite more than others. I found the stock Magura pads a bit grabby on the initial stage og lever throw as compared to the more progressive Koolstops.

Koolstop makes a very underrated pad. I've tested them on Avids and Maguras and I had loved them. Consistant power, modulation, more than decent lasting and no or limited squeal. If that wouldn't be enough, they're so cheap!


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## tigerdog (Mar 16, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> BTW Tigerdog: A friend of mine works at the American School so now I know what you do!


Ouch! That means they'll all know here that I'm surfing mtbr when I should be working! Who's your friend?


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## elmadaleno (Jul 8, 2005)

tigerdog said:


> Ouch! That means they'll all know here that I'm surfing mtbr when I should be working! Who's your friend?


You let me have those sweet wheels you have on the Burner and the American School Foundation will not learn about your web surfing habits!! 

Susan Mattox, blonde, very very pregnant right now. She is married to a friend from school.

Cheers,

Madaleno


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

elmadaleno said:


> You let me have those sweet wheels you have on the Burner and the American School Foundation will not learn about your web surfing habits!!


That's called "EXTORTION" and it's illegal... but hey, what friends are for?? 



elmadaleno said:


> very very pregnant right now


My wife was very pregnant from day one she got pregnant... she was so pregnant, that she ended up having our baby...


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