# Tech, tools and despair



## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

Anyone ready to give up trying to keep up with the tech trends? Ever find yourself wondering what was wrong with square taper spindles? I'm sure there were issues, I just can't recall them it was so long ago. This existential crisis was brought about for me by trying to seat some 3" tubeless tires on a wide DT Swiss rim. I've successfully done it with narrower rims and tires and I've figured out I may be doing it wrong. But it got me to thinking about all the tools I've had to buy in the last decade just to keep up. I don't know how many different bottom bracket tools I have, I lost count. I need to replace the bearings in a DT Swiss TA hub. Hahahaha good luck. I need like $100 plus in tools. The full DT Swiss service kit is like $289. Need to get a cassette off the XD driver? New tool, what's a lock-ring? I still have cone wrenches hanging in my garage. "Grandpa what are those for?" "Well son we once had these skinny little axles with even skinnier skewers to keep them on the bike." "That sounds dangerous grandpa." Now there's direct mount chain-rings, different standards for hub drivers, sealant injectors, and what not. I love working on bikes, but I'm feeling overwhelmed and just about ready to throw in the towel and let the LBS deal with my bikes for the first time since the 80s. Which is probably want "they" want. Anyone else there yet?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Yes, I just commented yesterday that I missed the days when most parts would work on most bikes. I've been trying to find a 29er non-boost qr wheelset and they are few and far between, and those standards weren't that long ago.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

I'm at the point in life where I still enjoy wrenching and paying for tools and doing the work myself is more enjoyable than paying someone to do the work and wait...wait...wait...wait for my bike to be ready.
My current conundrum is what back sweep angle I need for the MTB handlebar.
One of these days, I hope to own a lathe and a mill.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I hear you, I have several different Shimano cranks all bcd 104 and not all chainrings are interchangeable.


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## TeeCee (Jan 7, 2021)

Just wait until you add a fat bike into the mix ). I have three, but the wheels won't interchange . Neither will the cranks / bb.

Took me a while to source 29 qr front wheel in 100mm and 27 qr rear in 135mm for a Ti mtb frame which is less than ten years old.

I find I'm using the lbs for a few things now, notably fat bike wheel build as my jig won't take 190 hubs. Or 150 either........

Progress?


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

TeeCee said:


> Just wait until you add a fat bike into the mix ). I have three, but the wheels won't interchange . Neither will the cranks / bb.
> 
> Took me a while to source 29 qr front wheel in 100mm and 27 qr rear in 135mm for a Ti mtb frame which is less than ten years old.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the heads up so I will forgo fat bikes. ?

I have very old schwinn bikes, old and new road bikes, old and not so old mtb's, gravel bikes in the mix so I am covered when it comes to different standarts.

Guess that is the price we have to pay for the more and more specialized bicycles categories.

The sport is also getting more popular so there is money to be made and companies have more money r&d.

At least the tool addict in me is happy.?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

You've always needed special tools to work on bikes, now you just need different special tools.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

The same tool that removes Shimano cassettes also removes XD cassettes. Easy breezy.


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

Bikes are the least of my worries when it comes to 'tools'...I wrench on my cars, motorcycles, lawn tractors, weed wackers, snow blowers...etc. Motorcycles alone have many 'special' tools and my garage has two Harleys and two Yamaha sport bikes. Wife just laughts when I tell her I need to get 'part x' or 'tool y'. I have a big rollaway tool box and a garage full of 'tools' many of which were a one and done use.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

For many years I had a medium plastic toolbox with all my bicycle tools that covered everything I did, now I have a whole shop and still can't find a spoke wrench or hub tool for every single bike that rolls through the door.
I let my regulars come in and use my specialty tools for those jobs they can do themselves otherwise, and it keeps the shop fridge stocked with beer.
Meanwhile my garage is filling up with specialty motorcycle tools, often homemade.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

Hawgzilla said:


> The same tool that removes Shimano cassettes also removes XD cassettes. Easy breezy.


Good to know, although I haven't had a Shimano hub since one ate its pawls and left me stranded in single digit weather in Alaska. First day out on it too.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

My personal philosophy: Never let a LBS bike mechanic touch your bike unless there's no other way.

There are some damn good bike mechanics out there... as well as some mighty lousy ones. I can't tell the difference by the smiles they wear. Meanwhile I know I know what I know. And I can learn whatever I don't.

In the long run buying tools is cheaper than taking my bike to the LBS, not to mention I don't have to wait wait wait wait wait wait (like @Fr0hickey says above) for my bike while it's in the LBS' queue. Finally, I'll own the tools so I can use them again next time. And the time after that... ad infinitum.
=sParty


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Agree 110%

Nobody is going to put the time, effort, and meticulousness into your own bike that you can. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I enjoy a deep appreciation for having all of the tools to maintain or service everything on my bikes. Buying a necessary tool to complete the task is usually cheaper than the LBS expense. And, a lot more gratifying.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> My personal philosophy: Never let a LBS bike mechanic touch your bike unless there's no other way.
> 
> There are some damn good bike mechanics out there... as well as some mighty lousy ones. I can't tell the difference by the smiles they wear. Meanwhile I know I know what I know. And I can learn whatever I don't.
> 
> ...


You're not wrong. There's literally no process you have to go through to work at a shop. Especially in a college town where some 19 year old hipster riding a fixie can go from patching tubes to suddenly trying to adjust your $8000 bike because the real mechanic is sick that day.
Most of my customers are bringing me work they could do themselves. I'm not complaining, but what would they do if I wasn't around?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> You're not wrong. There's literally no process you have to go through to work at a shop. Especially in a college town where some 19 year old hipster riding a fixie can go from patching tubes to suddenly trying to adjust your $8000 bike because the real mechanic is sick that day.
> Most of my customers are bringing me work they could do themselves. I'm not complaining, but what would they do if I wasn't around?


The world needs the LBS. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly the elite bike crowd that does all their own wrenching. At least for the most part.

A while ago there was a thread here on empty beer wherein someone asked if people got an annual tune up on their bikes. I asked, "What's a tune up? Isn't that where the bike shop checks your brake pads, lubes your cables, fills your tires with air, greases your bearings, tightens your headset, etc.?"

People who ride their bikes a lot do all those things as the need arises. There's no need for an annual tuneup. I mean, unless you don't ride your bike much. And especially if you leave it out on the patio in the rain all winter.

Don't miss my point. Lots of people do both those things - don't ride much and mistreat their equipment. Plus they don't have a clue how a bike works, even though there's no hood to look under, it's all exposed right there to easily see how things work. They're not interested in figuring it out regardless how simple it is.

Those of us that are interested&#8230; we do it. The others can take their bikes & BSOs to the LBS. There are a lot more of the latter than of the former. 
=sParty


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BicyclesOnMain said:


> You're not wrong. There's literally no process you have to go through to work at a shop. Especially in a college town where some 19 year old hipster riding a fixie can go from patching tubes to suddenly trying to adjust your $8000 bike because the real mechanic is sick that day.
> Most of my customers are bringing me work they could do themselves. I'm not complaining, but what would they do if I wasn't around?


What process did you go through?


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I’ve had very good and very bad experiences at the LBSs. Years ago I was forced to wrench on my bike secondary to lack of finances. Now it’s a PITA for personal reasons. I have to make a judgment call as to the competency of the mechanics, their compassion to do a good job, and travel to the shop vs doing it my self. I would rather pay a reasonable rate for good work. A crap mechanic can make some very expensive screw ups from personal experience. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

I like working on my and others bikes.

I go with a long-loved LBS for annual brake bleeds and suspension service.

Not because I can't do it, but because it's good to keep the relationship fresh, for that inevitable "I'm leaving tomorrow and XYZ disaster just struck".

Funny somebody mentioned cone wrenches. I had a set for ages that I hadn't used for ages and discarded them during a recent move........and then needed them to remove/install the axle on a fine P321 rear hub.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

I could simplify and limit my tool needs if I only rode the Typhoon here, but the having contemporary bikes in different categories is is capability almost hard to imagine. Especially hard to imagine in the old fart's category because having the Typhoon and our old Fat Chance to compare with modern trail, hard tail, fattie, touring and gravel bikes shows the difference the right bikes make.

On bike shops, in most markets you can find a great service location. The independent shops that have both high end products and survived time - decades? - are good places to start. I still espouse having your own skills and tools and especially if you travel.


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## BicyclesOnMain (Feb 27, 2021)

J.B. Weld said:


> What process did you go through?


I got into cycling when I was fourteen, a friend of mine raced for Ritchey and inspired me to both wrench and ride. I hung out at my LBS whenever I had time to watch and learn, and read up on anything I could get my hands on. When I was 21-22 I occasionally helped assemble bikes there, and then at 23 the owner opened up a second location and had me run it. Looking back I didn't have a wide range of experience, but never had any major screw-ups. Spent years after that buying and selling used bikes as a hobby, and then working in another shop off and on till now. 
So like most wrenches I know, it was just learned bit by bit.


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Sparticus said:


> The world needs the LBS. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly the elite bike crowd that does all their own wrenching. At least for the most part.
> 
> A while ago there was a thread here on empty beer wherein someone asked if people got an annual tune up on their bikes. I asked, "What's a tune up? Isn't that where the bike shop checks your brake pads, lubes your cables, fills your tires with air, greases your bearings, tightens your headset, etc.?"
> 
> ...


I think there's another group out there, folks like me, that maybe you're overlooking. 
Before the days of (commonplace) oil-damped
suspension and hydraulic disc brakes,
I used to do ALL my own wrenching, and even 
building bikes. 
I still do everything except suspension and brakes. 
I simply have no desire to mess with either,
and can afford to let a shop do it. 
And it has absolutely nothing to do with lack of ability.


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

My last build the only new tool I got was a shimano chainring tool since they finally moved to a spiderless ring. That tool also works on the BB for extra credit.
That's pretty good for years of bike tech and product generations since I started accumulating tools.

I really have no idea what is the complaint. Did you ever work on motorcycles? I still have a big moto tool box that dwarfs the bike tools box. You never hear moto guys complain that a suzuki tool does not work on a honda or that a tuned pipe for their 2020 KTM 250 does not fit on the new one (like you hear about bike parts).

Many of the "new" product like BB cups and hollow spindles are far better that the earlier version like square taper. You can't even call them new anymore after decades. The idea that we should not get better products so we can use a tool we bought 20 years ago for 20 dollars is ridiculous. My bike now is much better than any previous bike, even though it does not use a cone wrench.

I build my bikes and do everything including suspension and brakes. You don't really need a lot of new tools for modern bikes, especially now that bottom brackets are going back to threaded almost across the board. Other than headset tools the rest is pretty common on bikes and cheap. Chain tools, brake bleed tools, tires and tubes, tubeless stuff, wheel building, drivetrain and cables, etc, the same for years. I can still bleed the brakes with the same funnel, check the spoke tension with the same gauge, and 90% of what I do is with allen keys anyways.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

CrozCountry said:


> My last build the only new tool I got was a shimano chainring tool since they finally moved to a spiderless ring. That tool also works on the BB for extra credit.
> That's pretty good for years of bike tech and product generations since I started accumulating tools.
> 
> I really have no idea what is the complaint. Did you ever work on motorcycles? I still have a big moto tool box that dwarfs the bike tools box. You never hear moto guys complain that a suzuki tool does not work on a honda or that a tuned pipe for their 2020 KTM 250 does not fit on the new one (like you hear about bike parts).
> ...


Very good points and I was wondering about that too.
Maybe its because of the grassrooty kind of way mtb started back in the day?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Xylx said:


> Ever find yourself wondering what was wrong with square taper spindles?


nope. they always sucked. we just couldn't do anything about them for awhile. Now, we don't have to mess with them if we don't want.



Xylx said:


> trying to seat some 3" tubeless tires on a wide DT Swiss rim.


this has less to do with tire size and more to do with tubeless. tires fit more tightly onto rims because of it. gotta learn new techniques, and many improvements do come with new downsides, but tight-fitting rims are definitely not new. I'd take modern tubeless rims/tires any day over 90's-era Araya rims and Velox tape. Gah!



Xylx said:


> I need to replace the bearings in a DT Swiss TA hub. Hahahaha good luck. I need like $100 plus in tools. The full DT Swiss service kit is like $289.


Never done DT hubs, but there ARE kits you can get which give you what you need to do any brand of hub without buying new tools.



Xylx said:


> Need to get a cassette off the XD driver? New tool, what's a lock-ring?


I use the same tool for xD driver cassettes as I do for Old school SRAM/Shimano lockrings as I do for Micro spline lockrings. And I've got all 3 types of cassettes in the garage. Pretty good, no?



Xylx said:


> Now there's direct mount chain-rings,


My direct mount chainrings use the same tool that the very first Shimano Hollowtech II bb I bought 15yrs ago used (RaceFace). SRAM just uses a hex wrench. The smart manufacturers figure out how to use existing tools for this.



Xylx said:


> different standards for hub drivers,


that's really not a different thing. Campy has had its own hub driver for forever. Shimano has gone through a bunch of interfaces over the years. Freewheels, uniglide, Capreo, etc, etc.



Xylx said:


> sealant injectors


there's no requirement that you use a sealant injector for anything. This one falls under "nice to have" rather than "essential tool"

I really don't have any difficulty with tools. It's the same with bikes as it is with anything else. Most of the time when you do a job for the first time, you need a tool to do that job. Sometimes you can make do with tools you purchased before, but there's usually _something_ new. Some tools, it's simply not worth it for me to buy them. Like the cutting tools to face/chase/ream a frame for a build. I'll gladly pay a shop to do that. Or a spoke threader. No f'ing way I'm buying one of those for my home shop.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

Harold said:


> nope. they always sucked. we just couldn't do anything about them for awhile. Now, we don't have to mess with them if we don't want.
> 
> this has less to do with tire size and more to do with tubeless. tires fit more tightly onto rims because of it. gotta learn new techniques, and many improvements do come with new downsides, but tight-fitting rims are definitely not new. I'd take modern tubeless rims/tires any day over 90's-era Araya rims and Velox tape. Gah!
> 
> ...


That was more a rhetorical question about square taper spindles. I ask myself what was wrong with them, then I think about it and you are of course right, they sucked. I remember fighting with those stupid things trying to extract the crank arms, the debate about to grease or not to grease. Awful. I love my Raceface cranks and direct mount rings.

The problem with 3" tubeless is you need a lot of air to seat them. I'm getting a portable compressor I can use for my Jeep tires too. That will pop them out, then put in the sealant with my syringe. I'd never go back to tube tires. Or dumping the Stans in then trying to seat the bead.

I solved the bearing issue by buying $75 worth of tools and parts. A Wheels Manufacturing bearing extractor ($27.50) a DT Swiss drift ($12) and two 6902 bearings. I may be an old dog (66) but I can learn new tricks. Except maybe the part about having three different kinds of cassettes. Which is, in fact, pretty good. Yes.

Someone else asked if I'd ever worked on motorcycles. I have. Since 1973 when I bought my first Honda. I've had Hondas, a Suzuki, several Kawasakis and a BMW. I wrenched on them all except the BMW which seemed to require a special set of tools for everything. I'm surprised they didn't require BMW glasses just to look at them. I sold all my motorcycles when texters took over the driver's wheel in most cars. I won't even ride a road bike anymore.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

I send rear shocks in for service and get wheels trued. Other than that I deal to It. Occasionally I get stumped by a lack of tools. 

I sometimes make a tool or adapt old out of date tools. If that doesn't work I go to the bro network and see if any dude in the crew has a typical, typically someone does, if not and it's a deal breakers it's buy a tool if I plan to do that rebuild again. If it's a random one off I'll get the bike shop to do it.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

I can still remember when all I had were a couple pair of pliers, and a Phillips and flathead screwdriver. I could completely disassemble, and reassemble a bike with just those. That was in the 1970's. And what's even more impressive is that I can still remember those days!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Xylx said:


> The problem with 3" tubeless is you need a lot of air to seat them.


You should try fatbike tubeless sometime. Wrestling with those SOBs was always the "highlight" of my week. A compressor alone still wasn't enough to get them on, even with the core removed to get more air flow. I had to resort to the method of installing a tube to seat the beads, remove the tube, leaving one side seated, install tubeless valve, then use the compressor to seat the opposite bead. Then the deal with sealant and the syringe.

I'm on 29x2.6 these days and those have seated reliably for me with a floor pump.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

Harold said:


> You should try fatbike tubeless sometime. Wrestling with those SOBs was always the "highlight" of my week. A compressor alone still wasn't enough to get them on, even with the core removed to get more air flow. I had to resort to the method of installing a tube to seat the beads, remove the tube, leaving one side seated, install tubeless valve, then use the compressor to seat the opposite bead. Then the deal with sealant and the syringe.
> 
> I'm on 29x2.6 these days and those have seated reliably for me with a floor pump.


I have been able to seat up to 2.35" tubeless tires with a floor pump. I have not tried tubeless for my fatty. I can't imagine wrestling a 4.6" tire onto the rim. It's bad enough with a tube. I use sex lube to get the bead to pop on. Plus I don't want to have to carry what... four? CO2 inflators.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chazpat said:


> I've been trying to find a 29er non-boost qr wheelset and they are few and far between, and those standards weren't that long ago.


I build a few of these a week. Still plenty common.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Xylx said:


> Anyone ready to give up trying to keep up with the tech trends?


Nearest shop is a ~3 hour round trip.

Tools aren't always cheap, but time + gas $ add up a lot faster.

Doesn't mean I don't get frustrated at times. Just have to keep it in perspective.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mikesee said:


> I build a few of these a week. Still plenty common.


Not that common around here, mostly I just see those on department store bikes.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not that common around here, mostly I just see those on department store bikes.


Department stores are still a thing? 😜


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Department stores have bikes?


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> My personal philosophy: Never let a LBS bike mechanic touch your bike unless there's no other way.
> 
> There are some damn good bike mechanics out there... as well as some mighty lousy ones. I can't tell the difference by the smiles they wear. Meanwhile I know I know what I know. And I can learn whatever I don't.
> 
> ...


... just keep silent on your tool collection and wrenching knowledge. Otherwise, you will have 'friends' come out of the woodworking asking you if you can help with their bikes. :O Not a bad problem to have.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

I enjoy wrenching and helping others on their bikes. I only have a select few that I make an sincere effort to help, but they have nice bikes and appreciate the effort. It all works out in the wash.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> I enjoy wrenching and helping other on their bikes. I only have a select few that I make an sincere effort to help, but they have nice bikes and appreciate the effort. It all works out in the wash.


likewise, and... keeps my beer fridge full. Along with people I get along with to share them with.


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## Fr0hickey (May 25, 2021)

CrozCountry said:


> I build my bikes and do everything including suspension and brakes. You don't really need a lot of new tools for modern bikes, especially now that bottom brackets are going back to threaded almost across the board. Other than headset tools the rest is pretty common on bikes and cheap. Chain tools, brake bleed tools, tires and tubes, tubeless stuff, wheel building, drivetrain and cables, etc, the same for years. I can still bleed the brakes with the same funnel, check the spoke tension with the same gauge, and 90% of what I do is with allen keys anyways.


My next set of mechanic's skill to learn is rebuilding suspension forks and shocks. That is totally alien to me, at the moment.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Fr0hickey said:


> My next set of mechanic's skill to learn is rebuilding suspension forks and shocks.


I'm not sure why shocks and forks are such a mystery. Basic service is not difficult and is a knowledge that can easily be acquired. I think planning ahead and having everything that you MIGHT need readily available makes the learning experience go much smoother.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mikesee said:


> I build a few of these a week. Still plenty common.


I would love to buy some wheels from you but this is for a 2018 Kona Unit I bought for $650, which I actually bought when looking for 29 wheels for my 2017 Unit. I found I do prefer the 29s, which are now on my original '17 SS and I want 29s on the now geared '18. It will be a third string gravel/commuter so I'm only looking to spend $200-$300. I had thought I'd be able to pick up something cheap used but that has not been the case.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Xylx said:


> Anyone ready to give up trying to keep up with the tech trends?...


Did that over 50 years ago.

I mainly ride a rigid single speeds with a rigid fork. Virtually nothing wears out. The bike is reasonably light despite non weight weeny components because it doesn't have one of those heavy Satan's Spoke Mangling Devices.

I prefer drum brakes to disks because they last forever and don't squeal.

And a bonus is that every ride gives my core a decent workout.


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## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

Cleared2land said:


> Department stores have bikes?


Daddy, what was a department store?


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Xylx said:


> Anyone ready to give up trying to keep up with the tech trends? Ever find yourself wondering what was wrong with square taper spindles? I'm sure there were issues, I just can't recall them it was so long ago. This existential crisis was brought about for me by trying to seat some 3" tubeless tires on a wide DT Swiss rim. I've successfully done it with narrower rims and tires and I've figured out I may be doing it wrong. But it got me to thinking about all the tools I've had to buy in the last decade just to keep up. I don't know how many different bottom bracket tools I have, I lost count. I need to replace the bearings in a DT Swiss TA hub. Hahahaha good luck. I need like $100 plus in tools. The full DT Swiss service kit is like $289. Need to get a cassette off the XD driver? New tool, what's a lock-ring? I still have cone wrenches hanging in my garage. "Grandpa what are those for?" "Well son we once had these skinny little axles with even skinnier skewers to keep them on the bike." "That sounds dangerous grandpa." Now there's direct mount chain-rings, different standards for hub drivers, sealant injectors, and what not. I love working on bikes, but I'm feeling overwhelmed and just about ready to throw in the towel and let the LBS deal with my bikes for the first time since the 80s. Which is probably want "they" want. Anyone else there yet?


Park Tools employees have something called Job Security and we are relegated to purchasing tools for life cause, cause bikes...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Once upon a time, when we all lived in caves, and bikes had rod brakes and were any colour you wanted so long as it was black, every bike came with a tiny saddlebag and in it were all the tools you needed to fully rebuild the bike.


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