# Looking for info on wooden berms & walls



## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm doing the ground work for a proposal to build a wall type wooden berm. I can't find many images of projects in the building phases showing how the walls/berms were built. 

My main objectives for the post is to hopefully get some images of wooden berms/walls being built and finished as well as some insight into why you built them the way you did. A big question is how you determined the degree & angles of your turns? I would also love to hear any feedback on things you did to make the design easier as well as things you found to avoid. 

I realize this is no small task and at the same time I will hopefully be utilizing funds from our local club and do not want to waste a penny. 

Thanks in advance for the help, 

D


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## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

What exactly are you looking for?

multi-tier wood berm
https://www.google.ca/search?q=mountain+bike+wood+berm

wooden berm | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

flat wall ride









curved wall ride (with dirt transitions)









Are you looking for metal of wood frame? Alpine Bike Park offer metal framed structures (FlowForm) that might be just what you want. If you're looking for wooden structures, it's another story and a lot of variable get in the way.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

https://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/need-help-wooden-berms-setup-739784.html












































Colonnade, Seatle. photo by CMC4130








Duthie Hill, WA








Whistler. photo by CMC4130








Whistler, photo by CMC4130


























photo by Octavio, rider: yours truly.


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm looking to build it out of wood. 

The best description I could give would be for this to be a tall wooden berm, almost a wall. I say almost because I don't expect to to be perfectly 90 degrees at the apex. I get the impression that as soon as I say wall it needs to be a 90 degree wall. 

I saw the Alpine Bike Park site, but first off we'd like to build it and second I doubt we have the budget to bring those guys in and third we're sticking with wood. That said, those guys are making some wicked looking stuff. 

The last picture you posted is closer to what I'm thinking. I'm not sure we'd go that tall... but maybe? 
Man, that makes my stomach twitch just looking at it. good stuff. 

One more thing, I'd love to see pic's of the backside's of these features. I'm trying to weigh all the best options of how to frame it out. 

Thanks again,


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

dsulwer said:


> I'm doing the ground work for a proposal to build a wall type wooden berm. I can't find many images of projects in the building phases showing how the walls/berms were built.
> 
> My main objectives for the post is to hopefully get some images of wooden berms/walls being built and finished as well as some insight into why you built them the way you did. A big question is how you determined the degree & angles of your turns? I would also love to hear any feedback on things you did to make the design easier as well as things you found to avoid.
> 
> ...


To answer your question . . . there are a lot of different ways to do wood berms. They can be mellow steepness or they can be vertial. They can be flat or curved. They can be transitioned face or flat face.... It's just very important to ride different ones and think about what kind of skill level your ridership are going to have.

I took these pics at Keystone:
Guys with BMX street riding background tend to really good at riding walls like this because that's a large part of street BMX. For riders who aren't used to hitting steep or almost-vert walls, you may want to make it multi level.


















I took this pic at Winter Park, summer 2012. If I remember right, it's on Cruel and Unusual.:









Same 180 berm to drop from the exit angle:


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

cmc4130 said:


> To answer your question . . . there are a lot of different ways to do wood berms. They can be mellow steepness or they can be vertial. They can be flat or curved. They can be transitioned face or flat face.... It's just very important to ride different ones and think about what kind of skill level your ridership are going to have.


Now that you're done giving me $hit. thanks for an answer.

You didn't need to repost the images from the other thread as I mentioned I've seen those. I'm looking for new additional pics. I'm thinking we are looking at a wall just shy of 90 degrees vertical anywhere from 6-10' tall. The previous low ridding berms, while fun are not what I'm talking about. This would be much steeper.

This wall in the 2nd-4th images CMC posted is the closest to what we have in mind, I am looking for any more pic's of stuff like this one.


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

CMC- the last set of pics is getting closer. I'm wondering if we'll have the space we need now that I look at some of those. The plan for what we have would to potentially build a set of two walled turns that would form an "S" or backwards S in our case, sort of like a "Z" but clearly smoother... But I digress. 

So we want a smooth ramp going into a right turn which forms almost a vertical wall forming between a 90-110 degree turn with a slope to level before you cross to the opposite angle to bank back up to the opposing lefthand turn and wall sloping back down to meet the trail. The exit may eventually have an additional drop deck like the one in the set above done in the darker wood.


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

Does anyone have a finished pic from the build above from Duthie Hill, WA?


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

dsulwer said:


> Now that you're done giving me $hit. thanks for an answer.
> 
> You didn't need to repost the images from the other thread as I mentioned I've seen those. . . . .


Lemme explain. I answer these threads so that there's a _resource _out there for _everyone_. I like to keep super-relevant information all in one thread, because then it's not like Groundhog Day, every month or two the same question comes up and all my previous answers and pics just fall off into the Internet black hole.

e.g.:
https://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/wood-berms-iowa-797862.html

An "S" type setup like you were asking about:









This is a classic bmx quarter to vert wallride setup. Note that the quarter is set back away from the wall a little bit. This is because you want to launch off the lip of the quarter up onto the wall. Then you want to be able to pull off the wall a little bit. If the transition was flush with the wall, then it would be more like a skateboard vert wall and you need to carve on and carve off more, rather than air on, gap off....










decline magazine

Adam Hauck on the cover of Decline. As you can see the dirt transition is flush up to the wall. With this kind of setup, you ride up the wall more like an over-vert quarter:









This is the steep flat-bank style. 








Just eyeballing it, I'd guess it's around 60 degrees:









Even though this is concrete not wood . . . it's good illustration of how you can have a transitioned bottom blending into a flat bank. It takes a little more work to do... but keep in mind you can use dirt for the tranny part. 









As for curved wallrides, there's an art to them. The tightness of the radius matters a lot. I'm just guessing here but, I'm thinking this one probably has around a 9' radius. It's really like a sideways quarter pipe.




























Check out this thread for some more mtb curved wallride pics:
https://forums.mtbr.com/urban-dj-park/mtb-curved-wallride-pics-802797.html

Skeleton shot:









Transitioned face wood berm curved walls take a lot of engineering. The classic Red Bull wall at Ray's in Cleveland:









Two-tier wood berm. Freight train:









This one is a little too mellow (not steep enough) in my opinion, but it could be good for a beginner trail:









Another classic Whistler two-tier berm:









Under construction pic from Winter Park "Boot Camp"


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

cmc4130 said:


> Lemme explain. I answer these threads so that there's a _resource _out there for _everyone_. I like to keep super-relevant information all in one thread, because then it's not like Groundhog Day, every month or two the same question comes up and all my previous answers and pics just fall off into the Internet black hole.
> 
> I'm can respect that. Water under the bridge.
> 
> ...


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

I definitely think it can be rad to have a 90 berm then a straight then another 90 rather than a full 180. Or even a 45-ish elbow to a 120 berm.

And, if the second one is a turn to go back up gradient, then a carve up the wall to a drop onto a landing is a great idea. You want something to drop off of and land and pump for flowing upgradient... In essence, you're creating a type of stair-step up the gradient. I may be able to find a pic of something like that. Do you have pics of the specific area you're talking about?


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't but I can take some. I'll try to get out there Wed and shoot some but it may be next week (leaving town for T-Day).


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

This may or may not help you out, but let us know if you get this built. e're all looking for new and cool stuff!

Read the "How we did it." here: http://qcforc.org/users/vibrato/WoodenBerms.pdf

The review the drawings here:

http://qcforc.org/users/vibrato/BankedDesignSunderbruchJubilee.pdf

and GOOD LUCK!!


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

I will keep you posted. 

We had a rider in the area of these berms you sent the links to (which CMC hooked me up with already) and he went and took more pictures and measurements. 

I might be able to finally get some pic's of the area we're looking to build. I haven't finished reading all of the "how we did it" but I'm hoping for some clarity on the speed to angle of turn ratio. 

I think we're looking at an apex vertical of close to 80 degrees. I may be retrained by a tree now giving me enough clearance between the tree and the wall itself allowing the rider to be standing up on the bike and not eating the tree. Still working it all out.


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## dsulwer (Oct 24, 2011)

Vibrato said:


> This may or may not help you out, but let us know if you get this built. e're all looking for new and cool stuff!
> 
> Read the "How we did it." here: http://qcforc.org/users/vibrato/WoodenBerms.pdf
> 
> ...


Vibrato,

I apologize, I just put 2 & 2 together and realized you were the author of the "how we did it". I might have some questions for you if you're open to a call at some point?


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

This is the wall / wood berm from the Texas Toast jam in October 2012, here in Austin. Several important things to note about it:
1) Note that rather than being a 180, half circle, style turn. . . it is actually 90 degree turn, to flat section, to another 90 turn. 
2) Note that there are dirt transitions going up into it and exiting down from it. This means the rider is at a higher elevation going around the turn and gets more pump by coming down from an elevation and landing on a landing on the way out. If the wood was at ground level, you could still ride it, but you wouldn't exit with that same pump.....










Here's a video with the course in action:
2012 Texas Toast Jam: Dirt Final Highlights - TransWorld RideBMX - YouTube


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## Mazukea (Jul 9, 2012)

this is also the exact info and pics I was looking for. I want to build something similar in my backyard.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

bump


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