# Wilma 6 vs Wilma 9 vs Wilma 12



## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

you probably think i should be able to figure this one out on my own based on my riding habits ... but i just don't know what " UP TO 1 hr. 30 min " translates to in the REAL WORLD.

because for example my mother's android phone is supposed to have several hundred hours of standby battery life and a few hours of talk time ... but the battery dies completely before she even gets home from work and she maybe uses the phone for half hour a day. 

and her phone is less than a year old. what happens when my Wilma battery is 2 or 3 years old ? or in cold weather ?

i like to ride maybe 1.5 - 2 hours. i ride at low intensity basically in circles until i feel flat / exhausted / hungry - then i go home. 

i never did any riding at night except when i got too far and didn't make it back before sunset - in other words never on purpose. 

i tried my mother's 80 lumen princeton tec EOS bike ( $30 ) and liked the idea of a small helmet light, but it made almost no difference with the ambient light level in the park i was at night except in certain darker spots. it certainly made me visible to everybody else, but didn't really do much to help me see potential hazards on the road like broken glass etc.

the princeton EOS bike weighs about 80 grams so it is just a bit lighter than Wilma and about the same size. don't really think i want to go heavier on the helmet ( like Niterider 3600 ) because i think it would be too distracting. i don't like to feel the helmet on my head ... but i like being able to aim the light with my head.

so what do you say ?

i would have loved to spend closer to $200 like magicshine, but i like things that are well designed and well made ... unless i am starving to death low price on its own doesn't really get me off.

so to recap i want a lightweight helmet light that is good, and a battery/charger system that is powerful and won't take too much space in a hydration pack.

help !

also, i will only be riding within City Limits so it will never be pitch black - there will always be some kind of street lights within 100 yards or so. given that, do you think it would still be worth it to invest in a serious light like Wilma ? i mean i could get by without any light at all easily - but ever since i dislocated my shoulder in a crash i am trying to double down on safety.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I know what you mean as i always like to get battery's with a little extra capacity for the very reasons you mentioned. That been said, the 28 watt Wilma's run times on the highest setting are based just on that. Depending on your ambient tempurature you will need good air flow to maintain the highest output or it will just step down. If your road riding then yes you will probably have a higher average speed and will probably tap that high setting most of the time vs the hour+ climb i usually start my mountain bike rides with which of coarse i use much lower settings for. 

I would go for the Wilma 9 as Lupines claims 2:15 run time on the highest setting. Even if you just have 20 minuts of climbing on your rides where you wouldn't be using your highest setting, you would squeeze close to 2 1/2 hours out of that battery. Should be plenty. In the winter i ride in tempuratures between -5C and +5C for months without much effect on my Lupine battery's. Any colder than that, i'm watching a movie in front of the fireplace.Cheers!!!


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

for a light as bright as a Wilma and the fact that you'll be using it somewhere with some ambient light and "not scary technical nightmare" trails, you can easily double the rated run time on high for real world use. Lower power lights tend to get run on full for a greater proportion of a ride, but really high power lights tend to be used more on medium settings, which are usually around half the electrical power (but not half the brightness!) of the high setting.

I would have suggested the Piko for a helmet light, but I don't know the precise weights for the different Lupine models.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

would the piko also not be able to maintain its full output at highest setting continuously in absence of good airflow ? will it also step down to a lower output level ? 

what about niterider - it seems to have a lot of heatsinking ( based purely on exterior pictures ) - does it also not maintain continuous max output ?

and if the real output bottleneck is heat dissipation - doesn't that mean i should go for a physically larger model because it will be able to dissipate more heat even if it is rated for same lumens ?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

hm, i completely forgot how to use these "tree" type forums. i assumed i was replying to a linear thread. my answer was supposed to be to everybody.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Yes usually the larger head unit would incorporate more heat sinking as there is more surface, but your adding way more size and weight.I believe the Wilma only steps down to something like 23 watts still giving you somewhere close to 2000 lumens anyway. Still more light than most would need. Most high powered lights reguardless of brand will step down without good airflow. My Wilma is only 1100 lumens and is very bright, as matthemuppet said running the new Wilma at a lower power say a mere 1600/1800 lumens will run cool enough that unless your riding two miles an hour in 100 degree tempuratures will not be an issue and give way more run time than you will need.

The Piko is also a killer light at half the weight and cost but of coarse no where near as bright as the new Wilma. Either would be a great choice.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

I have the piko 6, 900 lumens for 2 weeks
lupine Piko 900 & sandman nightride - YouTube

It seems dark on the camera, but that has to do with the camera, it is much brighter than 2000 claimed lumens chinese lights, and the beam is wide enough to use it on the bars as well.

In most cases even the 360 lumens settings woks fine for me,So I Think I'll seldom run it on the 900 lumens setting, But I do miss a second light!

So I consider a second light and instead of a wilma, i'll probably buy a second piko, but with the normal battery to safe some weight. With 560 lumens on the bar and 360 lumens on the helmet I can ride pretty much everywhere, and I can ride for 6 hoursbefore the first battery 'll die and keep the whole package well under 600 grams!

For the battery life, lupine gives you more than announced, I have a battery pack that is supposed to run for 3,4 hours but I could ride 2 x 2 hours on the 900 lumens setting, (road so there should be enough cooling). At lupine they want to make shure that, even if you end up with a set that has been on the shelffs for a while, you 'll still get the announced runtime.

It weighs 55 gram, compared with wide even beam, you forget it's there!

I cannot imagine needing 2400 or 3600 lumens on a bike, maybe on a snow skooter at 100 km/ h?
But if you have problems with nightvision, perhaps???


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

androgen said:


> would the piko also not be able to maintain its full output at highest setting continuously in absence of good airflow ? will it also step down to a lower output level ?
> 
> what about niterider - it seems to have a lot of heatsinking ( based purely on exterior pictures ) - does it also not maintain continuous max output ?
> 
> and if the real output bottleneck is heat dissipation - doesn't that mean i should go for a physically larger model because it will be able to dissipate more heat even if it is rated for same lumens ?


I wouldn't worry too much about cooling - you'll only need full output when you're going faster and because you're going faster it'll stay cool


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Just forget the Wilma (it's essentially last year's Betty), even the Piko will be a bit of an overkill for your use. But if you like quality engineering go for it. You don't need to use it @ 900 lumens all the time, and that way you can greatly increase the runtime.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

You can't go wrong with either the Wilma or the Piko. If helmet mounting, I would want the lighter weight Piko. This years Wilma is a real beast in output though. I've had a Wilma and Betty since 2007 and the darn battery packs are still going. I was thinking of replacing them, but they just won't die so why bother yet. My Betty is 1750 lumens which is a lot, and the Wilmas now are beating them. I hardly ever run my Betty on high, only on fast downhills. You just need to decide if you want a super lightweight light with good output, or a bigger heavier light with massive output.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> i never did any riding at night except when i got too far and didn't make it back before sunset - in other words never on purpose.
> 
> i tried my mother's 80 lumen princeton tec EOS bike ( $30 ) and liked the idea of a small helmet light, but it made almost no difference with the ambient light level in the park i was at night except in certain darker spots. it certainly made me visible to everybody else, but didn't really do much to help me see potential hazards on the road like broken glass etc.
> 
> ...


If you are putting the battery in your backpack, there really isn't much difference in weight. The Piko is 55 grams and the Wilma is 110. Neither one is very heavy.



> help !
> 
> also, i will only be riding within City Limits so it will never be pitch black - there will always be some kind of street lights within 100 yards or so. given that, do you think it would still be worth it to invest in a serious light like Wilma ? i mean i could get by without any light at all easily - but ever since i dislocated my shoulder in a crash i am trying to double down on safety.


If you are riding on the road at all, there is no substitute for a bright visible light so cars can see you. So, I'd go bright.

Also, having lots of light makes for confident riding. Things do look a little different at night even with lots of light. I find it nice to be able to make sure I see all the hazards and holes and don't get surprised. Been there with the injury thing and it's just not worth it.

Any helmet light is a good idea. I like to have one on the bars and one on the helmet. WHen I'm looking forward, the light is additive for a nice full beam. When I look into corners, I can light up more than what is in front of my bars. For cars at cross streets, being able to aim the light at them to get their attention is important.

You may want to think about two Pikos - one for the bars and one for the helmet. That would be a great lightweight and powerful solution. The 2.5Ah batteries are small and cute and have great run time with the Piko lamps.

On batteries, I prefer to carry more than one battery. I'd choose two of the 5.6Ah batteries over an 11Ah battery. That way I have a spare if one dies or if there is a failure. In general, Lupine uses really high quality cells and while expensive, they seem to last well.

I just (today) upgraded my 1500 lumen Wilma to a 2400 lumen one. I'm planning on moving the 1500 lumen Wilma to the helmet and or selling it and to replace it with the 900 lumen PIko. My 750lumen Piko would then be used in headband mode solely for the SAR stuff I do.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

where do you keep the piko battery - in your backpack ? because if you are going to get an additional piko 3 wouldn't it make more sense to put the small battery on the helmet directly ? and then the bigger battery on the frame ? or do you feel that having a wire run from the helmet to the hydration pack is not an issue ?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

With the Piko, I put the battery on the helmet. It's a small battery and it's not all that noticeable. The Piko battery, if I use it on the bars fits nicely under my stem. It's really not a very big battery. If you want a minimalist rig that is very bright, get two Pikos - one for the helmet and one for the helmet. That would give you redundancy and is just a really low footprint. The two lights would be 1800 lumens on full and would work well for you.

With the Wilma, I put the 5.6Ah battery in my Jersey pocket and use the longer cord. WIth the hydration pack, you could put a tie on top of the backpack to give yourself a nice large loop so it would never bind.

My current rig of a 1500 Wilma with a 750 Piko gives 2250 on high and is a very nice pattern and brightness when used together but I'm kind of addicted to lumens.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

for me the main advantage of piko seems to be the ability to mount the battery on the helmet. 

i usually ride with a hydration pack because it fits everything i like to have with me perfectly ... but my mother for example has no use for a pump, tube, hex keys etc. sometimes she goes for a ride after work and by the time she comes back it is already dark. she uses a 80 lumen helmet light now, but with a fully helmet-contained piko system i could let her use it when i'm not using mine. she said she isn't interested in wearing a backpack and amazingly she doesn't have any pockets.

if i'm already going to be going with a battery-in-the-backpack solution then i don't think wilma lamphead by itself is too heavy ... i didn't find exact number but i know it is in the ~ 110 grams range. compared to 80 gram self-contained princeton tec eos bike that i have tried, which is about the same size, i figure it should feel similar - which is to say not perfect, but tolerable. i think the extra 50 grams or so is not as important as 2X lumens. 

on the other hand the ability to not use a backpack with a piko is a tangible advantage. but i would then need to get a second light with a bigger battery on the bike itself. i originally wanted to get away with a single light, but now it is looking like a 2 light system will work better.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

the consensus seems to be two lights better than big light, and spare battery better than big battery.

correct ?


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

A 2013 Wilma and also a 2013 Piko would be an ideal combo, but if the price is too much you could go with one Lupine now along with a cheapo light for this year. Then next year add a second Lupine and you will be good to go for many years. In the end it is better to have two Lights from the same manufacturer that can share batteries, cables, and chargers etc.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

MaximusHQ said:


> In the end it is better to have two Lights from the same manufacturer that can share batteries, cables, and chargers etc.


that's an interesting point !

this thread is very helpful !


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

Start with one piko, it is probably already 3x more light than you'll need.
You can test it on the helmet and the bars.
And, if it turns out that you need more light, you can judge yourself whether you'll need a 2' wilma or piko.

The new lupine battery's serve also as rear light, I mount the light on the saddlepen with an additional rear light on the helmet.

And upcoming traffic is blinded, even with a 300 lumens output, so don't forget to lower the beam or point your light far away when crossing!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

would a Piko on the Helment and L&M Seca 1700 on the handlebars be a good setup ? i think its whack personally that lumen for lumen Seca is as expensive as Lupine, but from the shots i seen its beam pattern ( wide ) seems better suited to handlebars ... while the Lupine patterns, especially on Piko ( focused ) seem better suited to helmet.

???


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

androgen said:


> would a Piko on the Helment and L&M Seca 1700 on the handlebars be a good setup ? i think its whack personally that lumen for lumen Seca is as expensive as Lupine, but from the shots i seen its beam pattern ( wide ) seems better suited to handlebars ... while the Lupine patterns, especially on Piko ( focused ) seem better suited to helmet.
> 
> ???


The beam of the piko is already rather wide, If you like a narrow beam go for xpg spot emitters. For me, i don't like a narrow spot, it only creates hotspots in the flood which makes the spill less usable.

As someone mentioned before, 2 different brands means 2 different controls, different chargers, no change of exchanging batteries,...

But why do you want more light on a bike than on a motorbike? Try with one piko, and you'll quickly now whether you'll need a second ligth, and how much light you'll need!

A few years back, 900 lumens was top of the range, people were screaming that it turned night into day, they were able to ride full speed everywhere,... you consider buying 2500 lumens for a ride in the park!!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Nothing's impossible said:


> A few years back, 900 lumens was top of the range, people were screaming that it turned night into day, they were able to ride full speed everywhere,... you consider buying 2500 lumens for a ride in the park!!


i know. i had a Surefire 200 lumen flashlight for $280, now recently i picked up a 450 lumen Fenix for $95. so that's double the Lumen for 1/3 the price.

but why should i care what was before ? i care about what will be in the future. i know when i drive a car without HID headlights i can't even tell whether the headlights are on or off. even with HID i can't really tell unless i turn on the high beams. HID headlights are about 6,000 lumen. when i drove to Cali from NY i was running high beam HID quite a lot and every single car going the other way was upset about it LOL, but without those high beams i couldn't see where i was going and at 80 mph that's not safe.

my Fenix 450 lumen flashlight ? yeah you can certainly see it - it is very bright - but the spot is only like 10 degrees wide. now if you could stretch that spot to about 30 degrees ... well then you would be up to about 5,000 lumens for same brightness of the spot, in other words then you would have HID car headlight high beams.

if you look at beamshots Seca 1700 is very wide. it is not so much brighter than a piko as it is wider. since you can't control where you point your handlebar beam i would like it wide. on the other hand the helmet i would rather have narrow that way i don't blind people unnecessarily, but it is still bright wherever i point it.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

It's kind of a pain to be switching Pikos from helmet to helmet. I'd think you mother would be more likely to use it with a bar mount. The bar mount is very portable from bike to bike.

Those who say 1/3rd the light of a Piko is all you need (300 lumens) have way better night vision than I (and mine's pretty good). A 900 lumen Piko would work pretty well by itself for most people. Two together (helmet and bar) would be a very good system. A Wilma and Piko is superb.

The Piko battery is so small, I'd not waste the effort putting it in a pack.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

to make things more concrete, these are the bike paths in question:

https://www.nycbikemaps.com/wp-conten...3/dscf0035.jpg

https://www.capitalnewyork.com/files/...ikeLane400.jpg

IMG_9474.JPG (image)

the 2nd and 3rd are isolated from cars, but the 1st runs in the middle of the street so at every block you have to cross streets with cars going across - it is also the path my mother normally uses:

https://www.nycbikemaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/ocean-parkway-malls-aerial.jpg

this route is rather suicidal, as when i drive my car i almost run somebody over every single day here. you see oncoming traffic and you try to pull a quick left turn then just as you're in the way of oncoming traffic you realize that while you were looking at other cars some cyclist has jumped right in front of you and now you can neither stop nor keep going.

in california you get a green arrow for left turn and oncoming traffic waits while you make the turn, but here in brooklyn you just sort of have to go for it and pray for the best. it's BS but that's how it is. so in this particular situation i need as much visibility as possible, but it would have to be SIDE visibility mostly, although front would help too and maybe even rear.

so i am leaning towards Piko 3 on helmet and L&M Seca 1700 on handlebars, but Seca only goes down to 425 lumen minimum and i read that it really annoys other cyclists / pedestrians on such narrow paths ?

i guess, as everybody suggested, i can start with just the Piko, but i can get the Seca from Amazon and they take anything back for 30 days at zero cost so i might as well get the Seca too and if it doesn't work for me just return it.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

UPDATE ! placed an order for Piko 3 from Gretnabikes. This will be for helmet. I am still looking at handlebar options.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

UPDATE 2: ordered L&M Seca 1700 Race for handlebars.

ok so i'm going to wait until i can test the Piko and the Seca and i will let you know how it is.

for the time being, thanks everybody !


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

androgen said:


> i know. i had a Surefire 200 lumen flashlight for $280, now recently i picked up a 450 lumen Fenix for $95. so that's double the Lumen for 1/3 the price.
> 
> but why should i care what was before ? i care about what will be in the future. i know when i drive a car without HID headlights i can't even tell whether the headlights are on or off. even with HID i can't really tell unless i turn on the high beams. HID headlights are about 6,000 lumen. when i drove to Cali from NY i was running high beam HID quite a lot and every single car going the other way was upset about it LOL, but without those high beams i couldn't see where i was going and at 80 mph that's not safe.
> 
> ...


For riding between cars at night, reflectors and reflective clothing is the way to go, add a bright blinking taillight and a bright blinking light upfront and you are visible from a mile away in every direction for cars.
With the lights you have you are invisible from the sight, and blinding/ disturbing other trafic participants!

About how much light one needs, there is a discussing running about too bright, you might have a default in your black and white vision, but if blinding other traffic users with your HID high beams is you idea of fun, i hope you're not having to much fun with your new lights! 
Causing accidents and pissing off other traffic???


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Nothing's impossible said:


> For riding between cars at night, reflectors and reflective clothing is the way to go, add a bright blinking taillight and a bright blinking light upfront and you are visible from a mile away in every direction for cars.
> With the lights you have you are invisible from the sight, and blinding/ disturbing other trafic participants!


i agree. that's why i started 2 new threads one on rear light and one or side light. there you can share your ideas on what would be a good bright blinking tail light.

not sure why i would need a blinking light in the front if i will be running ~ 1,500 lumens there - is it for side visibility ? not arguing - just asking !

i think my biggest problem is good side visibility, as i will be mostly dealing with intersections rather than straight road.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Reflective clothing etc... is fine, but a big part of the problem is that driver's depth perception is not as good at night and they have no issue being close to cyclists. Bright lights that mimic cars or bright flashing taillights that scream "warning" to a driver get cyclist the space and respect that they need for safe night time riding.

I also much prefer a head light that I can shine in the direction of cars at cross street to make sure I'm seen. That active approach is much better than a passive approach. In addition, unless a cars headlights are pointed at you that reflective gear is not worth much especially at cross streets.

Typically blinkies are, IMO, one step away from useless. They essentially say, "I'm a cyclist, no special caution required." I much prefer the sort of respect and buffer I get from my 300 lumen tail lights (Dinotte 300R) that give me so much more buffer than with the blinkies that I used to use.

So, if you want to be safe and on the road, you need a light that is at least as bright as a single car headlight (1500 lumens or so) on the bars and a good bright light on your helmet to aim at hazards and unattentive drivers. You also need as big of a tail light as you can get and I'd say 100 lumens minimum and ideal being around 300 or so. Using a set up like this, I get plenty of respect from other vehicles, I actually have less close calls at night than during the day.

Yes it's a lot of light and I hope it's bright. I could count the number of times I've been flashed by a car for having bright lights on the fingers of one hand and still have fingers left over. If that happens it's almost always because the light was aimed improperly. No cars swerving into ditches, no issues what so ever. A car with their low beams on is 2600 lumens and brights are a lot more than that and everyone has been surviving nicely for decades without a problem. A bike with 1500 lumens of light is just not a problem and it's plain silly to make it into one.

Back on topic, the Wilma 1500 or 2400 is a fantastic light for just this sort of application. In an urban environment, it's going to bring you out of the background lights as something worth paying attention to. In a rural or trail environment, it's a proven winner and a just plain fantastic light. I'd go for it and I'd team it up with a Piko as a perfect combination although two of the new Piko 900s is a great setup as well.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> to make things more concrete, these are the bike paths in question:
> 
> https://www.nycbikemaps.com/wp-conten...3/dscf0035.jpg
> 
> ...


Two things:

1. Try and stay with one mfg or you get into battery and charger hell. It's much better to have one set of batteries and one charger that work with all your lights..

2. 425 lumens is not a lot of light but any light, if you aim it up and into someone's eyes will be irritating. I'd not worry so much about light levels as much as I would worry about aiming if irritating others is an issue.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

John, you could consider buying a small laser emitter, 10 watt should do to permanently blind all the guys that try to kill you!

For me traffic is a social thing, if you blind upcoming traffic you are an ***** thinking only about himself, upsetting other people, and doing so just because you don't like car's to pass you does'nt make it any better. 
One of these days you'll meet another selfish basterd, turned up by other selfish drivers and the moment he notices you are only a cyclist pretending to be a motorcyclist or a truck with a broken light he might just push you in the ditch!

With a few blinking lights and reflectors you will be noticed and people will see you are a cyclist. If you need additional light to see the road surface you'll need something like the piko. 

If your fellow traffic users are selfish ******, just wear something that reminds them of a police uniform, you ll be surpriced how much people actually see!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Reflective clothing etc... is fine, but a big part of the problem is that driver's depth perception is not as good at night and they have no issue being close to cyclists. Bright lights that mimic cars or bright flashing taillights that scream "warning" to a driver get cyclist the space and respect that they need for safe night time riding.
> 
> I also much prefer a head light that I can shine in the direction of cars at cross street to make sure I'm seen. That active approach is much better than a passive approach. In addition, unless a cars headlights are pointed at you that reflective gear is not worth much especially at cross streets.
> 
> ...


i agree. based on this video:

SECA 1400 - Night TIme Ride - YouTube

i went with Seca 1700 for the city.

as for the tail light i have been looking at dinotte but it doesn't seem to have much in the way of side visibility. for that matter NOTHING seems to have side visibility. i have no doubt dinotte 400R would work for cars BEHIND you, but what would work for intersections ? that's what i would like to know ...


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Intersections - that's where you use your helmet light. The Dinotte has probably a 140 degree or so range. It also, if aimed slightly down, puts a huge bloom on the pavement behind and around you this is massively visible. 

From even 100' back from the intersection, your front and back lights are just fine. Just when you enter the intersection is when your front and back lights are of limited utility and you are at highest risk. Just turn your head and look at the driver of the car on the cross street with your Piko. The Piko is bright but it's a fairly wide beam, you won't blind anyone (you're just slightly more than half as bright as a single car headlamp), but you will definitely have the attention of the driver and they will see you. I do this all the time and it works great. 

As Light and Motion notes in their video, the camera cannot accurately produce the spill of the lights. This is really true and the beamshots and videos do not at all accurately portray how the lights actually work.

J.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing's impossible said:


> John, you could consider buying a small laser emitter, 10 watt should do to permanently blind all the guys that try to kill you!
> 
> For me traffic is a social thing, if you blind upcoming traffic you are an ***** thinking only about himself, upsetting other people, and doing so just because you don't like car's to pass you does'nt make it any better.
> One of these days you'll meet another selfish basterd, turned up by other selfish drivers and the moment he notices you are only a cyclist pretending to be a motorcyclist or a truck with a broken light he might just push you in the ditch!
> ...


Why do you keep insisting that these bike lights "blind" traffic? It doesn't and it's patently absurd. A car single headlight is 1300 lumens and two are 2600. We are just now - barely - getting to the point where we are even in the same realm as a single car headlight. If the blinding that you suggest was the case, everyone would be blinded all the time and we'd see cars swerving into the ditch every time another car came at them. If someone inadvertently had their brights on, I can't imagine the carnage! In practice, or course, that does not occur. The whole thing is just silly.

If I take a single car headlight and improperly aim it, then that's a problem too. But that means pointing it largely straight out and slightly to the left which is precisely the least useful way to use your lights, Intuitively, bike riders aim them slightly down and straight in front of them. They want to see what's on the pavement 50-100' ahead. That is a significant down angle and is just not a problem.

Additionally, all the bike lights that I have - a large collection of Dinotte and Lupine lights all have pretty wide beams. That means that there is not a "laser like" beam aimed anywhere. They are not blinding even when aimed straight at you from 50' away. Bright? Yes. Blinding? no except if you are stupid enough to look right at them and they are aimed right straight at you - exactly as for a car headlight. What is happening is that the lumen density 50' out is not that great since the light is spread out over a wide area. Heck, a 50 lumen light if you look straight at it from 50' away is bright. But the point is, unless these other drivers are laying on the ground 50' in front of you on the road, they never see the light straight on. If they do, then they have much bigger issues than you and your bike. 

As for the police thing - with an extremely bright flashing tail light in the 300 lumen range, I think it does make cars think of other hazards and not of bicycles. They are conditioned to give such lights a lot of room and to slow down. I have absolutely no issue leveraging that reflex for my safety. Having ridden thousands of miles with my lights, I can positively testify that there is a significant difference in driver behavior with my 300 lumen flashing tail light than any blinky (50 lumens or less) that I have ever used.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Intersections - that's where you use your helmet light. The Dinotte has probably a 140 degree or so range. It also, if aimed slightly down, puts a huge bloom on the pavement behind and around you this is massively visible.
> 
> From even 100' back from the intersection, your front and back lights are just fine. Just when you enter the intersection is when your front and back lights are of limited utility and you are at highest risk. Just turn your head and look at the driver of the car on the cross street with your Piko. The Piko is bright but it's a fairly wide beam, you won't blind anyone (you're just slightly more than half as bright as a single car headlamp), but you will definitely have the attention of the driver and they will see you. I do this all the time and it works great.
> 
> ...


some of the options i am looking at for tail light are:

* Dinotte 300R ( $200 ) 
* L&M Vis 180 ( $100 ) ( 50 lumen LED )
* Niterider Solas ( $40 ) ( 2 watt LED )
* Niteflux Red Zone 4 ( i would get it in a heartbeat, but it's out of stock )

i'm just not sure what is the point of paying double for extra lumens on the tail light just to point it down at the pavement. with L&M Vis 180 i could aim it straight back without p1ssing anybody off and i would also get wide coverage.

i understand on the road the Dinotte would be helpful, but i would be riding on a bike path that is separate from the road ( runs along side the road, but behind the curb ) so there would be zero chance of any car hitting me from behind - the only risk would be getting hit from the side on intersection, and in that scenario it seems wide coverage becomes more important than throw and L&M Vis 180 starts looking better ... no ?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

You won't upset anybody. In fact I've had a lot of people go past and go, "nice light". Most drivers are really grateful to be able to see a cyclist without the scare that comes up when they almost run them over with their unseen blinky lights.

You don't point the Dinotte down, They recommend you just give is a slight downward angle from the horizontal if you want a few degrees, less than 10. I don't tip it, I aim it straight back. The beam is wide and there is plenty of spill on the ground all around and behind me. From behind, it's a massive red bloom to most drivers that they are very happy to slow down and go around wide. Compared to using a light like this to the blinkys, the difference in driver behavior is amazing.

I've used the vis180 and took it back. It's the biggest of the blinkies but it's inadequate in my opinion and overpriced. I also didn't think their flash patterns were aggressive enough.

The Dinotte's are without equal IMO. Your tail light is much more important for safety that the head light in my experience. The Dinotte's get you serious room and caution from motorists. I've nearly been sideswiped when using blinkys. With my Dinotte's on 50mph rural roads, cars usually slow way down and go way wide when passing. That's much safer for me and for them. 

Tail lights are absolutely the last place you should economize. 

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> You won't upset anybody. In fact I've had a lot of people go past and go, "nice light". Most drivers are really grateful to be able to see a cyclist without the scare that comes up when they almost run them over with their unseen blinky lights.
> 
> You don't point the Dinotte down, They recommend you just give is a slight downward angle from the horizontal if you want a few degrees, less than 10. I don't tip it, I aim it straight back. The beam is wide and there is plenty of spill on the ground all around and behind me. From behind, it's a massive red bloom to most drivers that they are very happy to slow down and go around wide. Compared to using a light like this to the blinkys, the difference in driver behavior is amazing.
> 
> ...


yeah i been researching just now and everybody says Dinotte is the best tail light.

the question remains - 300R or 400R ?

i don't care for brightness so much, as i care for wider beam pattern. is 400 wider than 300 ?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The 400R has a separate battery that you have to strap down. It's older and marginally brighter than the 300R. I have both and only really use the 300R anymore. Unless I compare them side to side, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference either in driver behavior or in comparative brightness.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

UPDATE ! cancelled Seca 1700. ordered Niterider Pro 3600.

i already have tracking number for the piko though, so i don't suppose i can cancel it, nor do i want to.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> The 400R has a separate battery that you have to strap down. It's older and marginally brighter than the 300R. I have both and only really use the 300R anymore. Unless I compare them side to side, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference either in driver behavior or in comparative brightness.
> 
> J.


thanks. actually from my research just now the difference in brightness is noticeable, but everybody still prefers 300 because of the self-contained design.

both 300 and 400 are wide flood though, rather than spot, and that's what i want. i want to be visible to everybody, not blind some and be invisible to others.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yes, the 400 is brighter but it's not that big of a deal. For instance, if you put the 400 on your bike and tested it. Then took it off and went inside and got your 300, you'd be hard pressed to really tell a difference. It's probably about 20% or so.

They both have a very wide flood of light and very aggressive flash patterns - which I like.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1. Try and stay with one mfg or you get into battery and charger hell. It's much better to have one set of batteries and one charger that work with all your lights..
> 
> 2. 425 lumens is not a lot of light but any light, if you aim it up and into someone's eyes will be irritating. I'd not worry so much about light levels as much as I would worry about aiming if irritating others is an issue.


somehow i missed this post. basically i have the following problem with staying with one manufacturer - it is boring !

my father bought the exact same car ( same model year, same color ) THREE times in a row - because he had spare parts for from the 1st and 2nd time - parts like headlights, taillights, side mirrors, stereo etc etc. that's not my style  what is the fun in driving the same car for 15 years ?

also i felt that Lupine beam was not wide enough for handlebars, while Niterider was too bulky for helmet.

but i appreciate the input.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

I guess living in a different country, in a different part of the world does make a difference? 
In our region, you are seldom blinded by a car, the lights need to be checked yearly on blinding,most car mechanics point the lights rather low, a lot of cars have projector lights, HID without automatic leveling is prohibited,...
Crossing people will allert you if you are using the throwers!

In fact, In Germany, you are not allowed to use the lupine on the road, nor the seca, not the nightrider,.. Either they blind upcoming traffic, either they need to be pointed down so much they are hardly visible anymore!

In Brussels, a fluo reflective coat is the best measure to be visible, a normal blinking front an tail light is required, but it doesn't ad a lot over reflectors. Multiple lights also seem to help more then extreme bright lights.
And, people crossing are hindered/blinded already if i use my old princeton tec switchback 2 or 3, with a combined 200 lumens, if I point the piko at half power in their face they are flashing, and giving the finger,... 
If I point it low so it doesn't blind it is hardly visible!

The problem in the city is the attitiude, not visibility, and by pissing people of with blinding lights, the attitude seems not to improve.

To be visible, a cheap flashlight with a diffuser cap (a flashlight in a cyclebottle also serves as a nice diffused light) makes you visible over a big angle without blinding people around you. 
A red cap makes a good taillight.

Aliexpress.com : Buy Fenix AD101 Flashlight White Diffuser Cap Tip for LD20 LD10 PD30 PD20 from Reliable AD101 suppliers on Portable flashlight shops - lighting experts


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## CHnuschti (Nov 12, 2008)

As for the Lupine batteries, I have good experiences about the durability. According to Lupine, the major factor to the degradation of their battery life is time(=age). Amount of charges etc. don't play much of a role.

I have a Lupine 4.5Ah battery produced April 2008. Today it still has a (measured) capacity of 5.1Ah!
I also have a Lupine 7.5Ah battery produced April 2009. Today it has a (measured) capacity of 7.2Ah
Third I had a Lupine 10.2Ah produced Jan. 2002. 6 months ago it had a measured capacity of 7.1Ah, but overall didn't perform well with a (old) Betty. But there was still some life in it.

So I would say they perform pretty well over time. The first two I still have them in use, and they do keep +/- the promises of run time given by Lupine, so I would say their statements about run times are fairly accurate.

As for your needs, I do agree with radirpork that you somehow have chosen the overkill path. If as you say move mainly in zones with street lights, then I don't get the point of having a strong lamp, since even the best can't compete much with street lights (at least for me here in Switzerland). Important for your own security is to have a "position light" well visible for others, but surely even the piko on a low setting can achieve this. Also I agree that reflectors / reflective stripes etc. are much more efficient for security/visibility than any kind of lamps.

So I would say a Piko would do the job for your needs , and indeed it is not so disturbing for other traffic participants like stronger lamps.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing's impossible said:


> I guess living in a different country, in a different part of the world does make a difference?
> In our region, you are seldom blinded by a car, the lights need to be checked yearly on blinding,most car mechanics point the lights rather low, a lot of cars have projector lights, HID without automatic leveling is prohibited,...
> Crossing people will allert you if you are using the throwers!
> 
> ...


You know, I simply don't believe this. Nor is it true in practice - anywhere. If it were, then cars would be in the ditch everywhere, their drivers blinded but they aren't. Even when headlights are properly aimed, some configuration of road or intersection (hills, bumps, rises etc...) will cause a headlight to be aimed in an opposing driver's face. We all survive it without a thought. You'll notice that there is no carnage as you describe. You're simply wrong.

Lumens are lumens. If a single car headlight is 1300 lumens and has two for a total of 2600 lumens, then a bike light that is 1300 lumens is no different and is half or less than the car's lights. It's stupid to aim the light out into free space where you can't see the road illuminating only the dust in the air and where it will *potentially* bother a driver (it won't "blind" them). You aim it slightly down _just like a car headlight._ so you can see the road surface in front of you. So this is just plain silly to go about worrying that some cyclist with a bright light is blinding drivers everywhere.

I've driven extensively all over Europe. I hate to be the one to break it to you but European headlights are not substantially different than anywhere else. And, I'm happy to say, I didn't see great numbers of blinded drivers either.

J.


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, you don't believe it, people from philips do, they developed a bikelight, the saferide to reach the german TUV regulation about blinding other people. 
The 1400-3000 lumens from a car shines to the ground, less high in the middle of the road,... unless you use the high beam!
There are moments like the top of a hill when cars might blind eachother a bit, but not in the same way as someone pointing a 900 lumens piko in your face!

If I pass a traffic sign by car the sign is hardly lit, if I pass a sign by bike it is blinding me!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing's impossible said:


> Well, you don't believe it, people from philips do, they developed a bikelight, the saferide to reach the german TUV regulation about blinding other people.
> The 1400-3000 lumens from a car shines to the ground, less high in the middle of the road,... unless you use the high beam!
> There are moments like the top of a hill when cars might blind eachother a bit, but not in the same way as someone pointing a 900 lumens piko in your face!
> 
> *If I pass a traffic sign by car the sign is hardly lit, if I pass a sign by bike it is blinding me!*


Aim your light slightly down instead of straight out. This is not a difficult concept.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> You know, I simply don't believe this. Nor is it true in practice - anywhere. If it were, then cars would be in the ditch everywhere, their drivers blinded but they aren't. Even when headlights are properly aimed, some configuration of road or intersection (hills, bumps, rises etc...) will cause a headlight to be aimed in an opposing driver's face. We all survive it without a thought. You'll notice that there is no carnage as you describe. You're simply wrong.
> 
> Lumens are lumens. If a single car headlight is 1300 lumens and has two for a total of 2600 lumens, then a bike light that is 1300 lumens is no different and is half or less than the car's lights. It's stupid to aim the light out into free space where you can't see the road illuminating only the dust in the air and where it will *potentially* bother a driver (it won't "blind" them). You aim it slightly down _just like a car headlight._ so you can see the road surface in front of you. So this is just plain silly to go about worrying that some cyclist with a bright light is blinding drivers everywhere.
> 
> ...


i believe him ( our German friend ). wikipedia supports what he says. even though regular car headlights are 3,000 lumen and HID are 6,000 it doesn't look that way to me in practice, and wikipedia says HID lumen for lumen produces more glare for some reason. i think LED produces even more. i can look at a 100 watt light bulb which is as much wattage as both car headlights, but i can't look at a 80 lumen led light IN DAYTIME.

so i guess the solution for pedestrians is - don't look 

i just hope it's legal here in US ! i also hope that cops know it's legal !


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Nothing's impossible said:


> Well, you don't believe it, people from philips do, they developed a bikelight, the saferide to reach the german TUV regulation about blinding other people.
> The 1400-3000 lumens from a car shines to the ground, less high in the middle of the road,... unless you use the high beam!
> There are moments like the top of a hill when cars might blind eachother a bit, but not in the same way as someone pointing a 900 lumens piko in your face!
> 
> If I pass a traffic sign by car the sign is hardly lit, if I pass a sign by bike it is blinding me!


most car HID headlights only work on low beam, and have a regular halogen for high beam. i once had a car with HID high beams, and on the highway other cars would flash their headlights at me from about half a mile away  but the light was awesome - made you feel like god


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

so i am in NY and gretnabikes is in PA. i ordered my piko thursday at 2AM eastern time, and received friday 4.40PM eastern time. so all in all it took 38 hours 40 minutes from placing order to receiving it. I WOULD SAY THAT'S FAST !

i already tested it. very small, very cute - my mother is very happy with that. 

now the bad - battery mounting is c4ap. the only strap included is too short for installing in some parts of the helmet and too long for others. i could only find one place where the strap was right size and it wobbles around like crazy in this spot.

also after running on high for about a minute the body was already almost too hot to touch. this is outdoors in 72 degree weather. i will be running it on medium - thanks to all the people who pointed out that i will be running it on medium, not high due to the heat.

THIS LIGHT SHOULD BE ADVERTISED AS 560 LUMEN CONTINUOUS, 900 LUMEN TURBO.

the light itself is quite good - not bright enough, but i wanted something lightweight and this one is the lightest. as lightweight as it is, it is a big difference compared to just the helmet by itself. i am glad i didn't get anything heavier for the helmet. 

if it was just for me i would have preferred wilma and battery in the hydration pack. but my mother was opposed to the idea of backpacks.

so far i give it 3.5 stars out of 5. it is very good overall, but with some serious shortcomings. yes i would buy it again, but only because there is nothing better. the piko has met my high expectations, but did not exceed them.

light = 4 stars ( good pattern, good color, not bright enough )
lighthead = 4 stars ( very well made and compact, but needs better heat sinking. button placement not ideal - when pressing you could change the angle of the head )
lighthead mount = 5 stars ( great quality, does the job well and weighs nothing, but i would have liked a cleat system )
battery = 4 stars ( very compact and well made, but no capacity indicator )
battery mount = 2 stars ( the velcro strap is very good quality, but 1 size is not enough. plus the battery needs a flat padded bottom, plus some kind of a cleat system would be nice )
charger = 3 stars ( obscenely large both for a wall wart, and for the power that it has. LED indicator can very hard to see )
cables = 1 star ( well made, flexible and lightweight, but RIDICULOUSLY difficult to unplug the head from battery THE PLUG NEEDS TO BE REDESIGNED )

here is my piko charging:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> i believe him ( our German friend ). wikipedia supports what he says. even though regular car headlights are 3,000 lumen and HID are 6,000 it doesn't look that way to me in practice, and wikipedia says HID lumen for lumen produces more glare for some reason. i think LED produces even more. i can look at a 100 watt light bulb which is as much wattage as both car headlights, but i can't look at a 80 lumen led light IN DAYTIME.
> 
> so i guess the solution for pedestrians is - don't look
> 
> i just hope it's legal here in US ! i also hope that cops know it's legal !


I certainly believe some misguided EU politician put out some stupid rule about bike lights. That almost goes without saying.

I don't at all buy the "blinding" argument. It's silly and doesn't pass the common sense test.

J.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> so i am in NY and gretnabikes is in PA. i ordered my piko thursday at 2AM eastern time, and received friday 4.40PM eastern time. so all in all it took 38 hours 40 minutes from placing order to receiving it. I WOULD SAY THAT'S FAST !
> 
> i already tested it. very small, very cute - my mother is very happy with that.
> 
> ...


Flip the battery around the other way so the strap goes up and over the battery. That will solve your problem and will make mounting easier.

If you are moving the light will have no problem staying cool would be my bet. Staying still and letting it heat up there is no airflow to take away the heat. That's why it's an aluminum body (heat sink). Even slight airflow will make a big difference.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Flip the battery around the other way so the strap goes up and over the battery. That will solve your problem and will make mounting easier.
> 
> J.


no i put the battery on this way on purpose. the cable is very long. if i put the battery facing the lighthead i would have half a foot of extra cable.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

i knew the cable was going to be crap just by looking at it on pictures. i knew the plug had to be round for good water seal. instead they just made it stiffer. FAIL ! ! ! so my inner voice was right, but unfortunately i didn't really have any alternatives.

i have injuries to my hands and it hurts when i unplug that retarded plug. i'm going to wait till i get my niterider to compare the quality, and then i will decide if i want to keep the piko or send it back. that plug is atrocious. 

for double the price of niterider ( lumen for lumen ) i expected double the quality. and that plug - i would be angry if i found it on a magicshine, let alone a premium made-in-germany product.

there is nothing to grip on it, and when you try to pull it out - it just won't budge. FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL ! ! ! this is not the quality i expected.

i'm revising overall rating for piko down to 3 stars.

i want to send it back already, but it would not be prudent not to wait until i can compare it to the niterider.


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## juergenor (Mar 30, 2004)

androgen said:


> i knew the cable was going to be crap just by looking at it on pictures. i knew the plug had to be round for good water seal. instead they just made it stiffer. FAIL ! ! ! so my inner voice was right, but unfortunately i didn't really have any alternatives.
> 
> i have injuries to my hands and it hurts when i unplug that retarded plug. i'm going to wait till i get my niterider to compare the quality, and then i will decide if i want to keep the piko or send it back. that plug is atrocious.
> 
> ...


I have the exact opposite experience: I think the plug and flexible cable is far better than Magicshine (flimsy plug, thin, cheap cable) or Nightrider (unplugs easily, stiff cable, difficult to align contacts). Plug has a great seal - from what I can see. However - my plug is easy enough to unplug. Maybe there is a change and/or something is wrong with your Piko.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

juergenor said:


> I have the exact opposite experience: I think the plug and flexible cable is far better than Magicshine (flimsy plug, thin, cheap cable) or Nightrider (unplugs easily, stiff cable, difficult to align contacts). Plug has a great seal - from what I can see. However - my plug is easy enough to unplug. Maybe there is a change and/or something is wrong with your Piko.


i mentioned magicshine as a joke - i never used one. what i meant was that even at a price of magicshine i would expect better.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

I have to agree with juergenor. I like the cables and plugs on my Lupines much better than the Magicshine type round plugs like all the clone lights use and also like the gloworm lights I have. The plugs have a great seal on my Lupines and are not going to come unplugged by accident as easily as the round magicshine type plugs can. I already had one of those extension cords fail, but had no issue with the Lupines after over 5 years of heavy usage. The Lupine cords and plugs have proven to have a solid track record whether in downpours or snowstorms in below zero degrees Fahrenheit temps. In fact they are the best I've used and I have complete faith in them. It really surprises me that you feel that way as I always felt the Lupine cords and plugs were of excellent quality and functioned very well. They do take more effort to unplug then any of my other lights,but that seems like a good thing to me.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

MaximusHQ said:


> I have to agree with juergenor. I like the cables and plugs on my Lupines much better than the Magicshine type round plugs like all the clone lights use and also like the gloworm lights I have. The plugs have a great seal on my Lupines and are not going to come unplugged by accident as easily as the round magicshine type plugs can. I already had one of those extension cords fail, but had no issue with the Lupines after over 5 years of heavy usage. The Lupine cords and plugs have proven to have a solid track record whether in downpours or snowstorms in below zero degrees Fahrenheit temps. In fact they are the best I've used and I have complete faith in them. It really surprises me that you feel that way as I always felt the Lupine cords and plugs were of excellent quality and functioned very well. They do take more effort to unplug then any of my other lights,but that seems like a good thing to me.


well like i said i have injuries that cause me pain when i unplug it. the effort required to pull it out is not too high, but the effort required to get a good grip on the plug is ridiculous. now if this is more my fault than lupine's fault that i can't grip this plug with my hands, then i could probably use pliers ( i have several of those ). one thing i don't want to do is pull by the cord, because that may kill it.

do you pull yours out by the cord, or do you grab the plug ?

i also have one more question - is it ok to leave the battery plugged into head for extended periods of time ( weeks ) if you're not using it ? or will the battery drain faster that way and i should keep it unplugged ?


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

To unplug mine I grip at the plug not the cord and just pinch hard for a good grip and pull it apart. It does take a good deliberate effort, but nothing extraordinary. I could imagine with issues gripping that it could be difficult to pull apart. I would not expect my mother who has bad arthritis in her hands to be able to do this easily or maybe not at all. I have a strong grip from strength training so it comes easier to me to. No it is not ok to leave the light head plugged into the battery for extended times b/c it will drain the battery plus if the light were accidentally turned on and say something like a cloth or something were on top of the light head it could get hot enough to be a fire hazard.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

If you used pliers I would be worried about doing damage. Maybe if you wrapped the plier ends with electrical tape or something rubber-like to keep the teeth from damaging the cord and connectors. Maybe if you had some gloves with rubber fingers that are grippy then that might work easier for you to grab the plug with.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

MaximusHQ said:


> To unplug mine I grip at the plug not the cord and just pinch hard for a good grip and pull it apart. It does take a good deliberate effort, but nothing extraordinary. I could imagine with issues gripping that it could be difficult to pull apart. I would not expect my mother who has bad arthritis in her hands to be able to do this easily or maybe not at all. I have a strong grip from strength training so it comes easier to me to. No it is not ok to leave the light head plugged into the battery for extended times b/c it will drain the battery plus if the light were accidentally turned on and say something like a cloth or something were on top of the light head it could get hot enough to be a fire hazard.


well thanks for the input.

unfortunately i can't try the pliers unless i decide to keep it, because it can leave marks. i guess i could put some sort of rubber between the pliers an the connector but that would already start becoming rocket science.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> no i put the battery on this way on purpose. the cable is very long. if i put the battery facing the lighthead i would have half a foot of extra cable.


Please re-read what I wrote. The velco strap goes up and *OVER* the battery. As for the cord, just double it up and put it under the strap or get a small piece of velcro to hold the wire together. Or, just turn the battery so that wire exits towards the rear of the helmet to eat up the extra cable. This is not particularly difficult to figure out. 

The way you are attaching the battery will cause a lot of (self inflicted) wobbling.

To unplug it, just pull straight on the wire. It doesn't take a lot of force to unplug them. Otherwise just get one of those rubber sheets that you can use for opening a jar, roll it up and then wrap it around one side of the connector to give you a big thing to grip. Or just hold it down with pressure on a table with one open hand and pull on the wire with the other or use the rubber trick I mentioned above.

You don't need a pliers (under any conditions) even if you can't grip it. I've managed to do it with very thick winter gloves, which I would think is similar.

J


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> The velco strap goes up and *OVER* the battery


you're right ! thanks for pointing out my mistake. i fixed it now and it doesn't wobble any more, and the velcro is now the right length for the spot where i originally wanted to mount it - perfect !

i think the reason i made the mistake is because Lupine batteries with capacity indicators mount the way i tried to mount it, and i just assumed that mine mounts the same way, but it has to be mounted "upside down" because it doesn't have the rubber piece on the bottom.

this development certainly wins back some points for the piko ...

i still think the connector a bad design, but i guess they are holding on to it to maintain backward compatibility with older models.

here is the new setup ( hope it's right  ):


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

MaximusHQ said:


> If you used pliers I would be worried about doing damage. Maybe if you wrapped the plier ends with electrical tape or something rubber-like to keep the teeth from damaging the cord and connectors. Maybe if you had some gloves with rubber fingers that are grippy then that might work easier for you to grab the plug with.


the tape probably wouldn't get good grip. i would need some sort of rubber between the pliers and the plug.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> You don't need a pliers (under any conditions) even if you can't grip it.


i *don't need* them or i *shouldn't use them* - which one did you mean ? i sometimes use pliers ( small ones ) to pull on connectors inside computers that are either too stiff or too small. of course those are made out of slippery plastic, and Lupine is rubber so it's a little different.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> i *don't need* them or i *shouldn't use them* - which one did you mean ? i sometimes use pliers ( small ones ) to pull on connectors inside computers that are either too stiff or too small. of course those are made out of slippery plastic, and Lupine is rubber so it's a little different.


Both. Given the connectors, you should be able to get them apart with other strategies than a plier and you shouldn't use a plier on them.

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

I am curious to hear your opinion again on the Piko after you have actually ridden with it. 

Thx


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

Androgen, seen how you struglle with the cables, and as you place the battery on the helmet anyway, would a torch model not be a better option? 

And, please have some precaution about a helmet light in traffic, 

the philips saferider might be a better option for the city?


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Nothing's impossible said:


> Androgen, seen how you struglle with the cables, and as you place the battery on the helmet anyway, would a torch model not be a better option?
> 
> And, please have some precaution about a helmet light in traffic,
> 
> the philips saferider might be a better option for the city?


no a torch would not be a better option. a system with a better plug would be a better option. if you got a defective bike would you switch to a skateboard or just get a working bike ?


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## Nothing's impossible (Mar 5, 2012)

The plug is the best plug on the market, it is not supposed to unplug to easy, for a mountainbiker on a technical trail that would mean a crash!
A false contact with 13 watt or 40 watt for the new betty is also not advisable.

The plug also needs to last several years, if it 's already loose from the start it will die quick. 

You bought yourself the ferrari of lights, and now you are complaining that it doesn't provide the luxoury suspension of a saloon car and is making to much noise. 

You want a commuter light, buy one!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

Nothing's impossible said:


> The plug is the best plug on the market, it is not supposed to unplug to easy, for a mountainbiker on a technical trail that would mean a crash!
> A false contact with 13 watt or 40 watt for the new betty is also not advisable.
> 
> The plug also needs to last several years, if it 's already loose from the start it will die quick.
> ...


You buy a Ferrari to put it in your car collection, not to drive it. When you want a car to drive daily you get a 911 Turbo. What you're saying is "if you don't like Ferrari then get a school bus." That just shows that you're insecure about your Piko.

i could have easily designed a plug that was more secure and more watertight than lupine plug and would operate with zero effort. the lupine plug is poorly engineered and performs badly.

coaxial BNC connector is a radio frequency connector that can give you an idea of how a good plug could have been designed. it has a spring loaded rotary latch that is effortless and 100% secure.










there is also something known as "compression fitting" that is used in plumbing, and also in coaxial cables as well. this can be used to provide the watertight seal. the compression fitting essentially is a wedge combined with a thread - so it multiplies the force twice.










by combining the aspects of BNC and Compression connectors an ideal plug could be easily engineered - watertight enough to go scuba diving, strong enough to hang yourself with the cable and still operated with little effort.

you may not know about these connectors, but you certainly know about the quick release system on bike wheels - that is another example of using BRAINS instead of DUMB BRUTE FORCE.

there is no, and has never been, any shortage of people like you ready to defend something that is stupid and bad. for every single crap product like magicshine, and for every a$$hole leader like Stalin there are always legions of tools proclaiming how great it is.

COMPLACENCY DOES NOT REQUIRE INTELLIGENCE.

just do me a favor and never talk to me again.

thanks !


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

I always pull the plugs apart grabbing the cable. I figured that if it can hold my ~1 kg ancient bottle-style battery in the air then I am safe to pull on the cable. No problems so far (I've been using it for 3 years like that). I also haven't heard of any single person for whom unplugging the cable of their Lupines would have caused a problem. But YMMV because of your injury.

If you don't like the product feel free to return it, I'm sure Gretna will take it back and you would be able to spend your hard earned cash on products that better suit your needs. End of story.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

radirpok said:


> I always pull the plugs apart grabbing the cable. I figured that if it can hold my ~1 kg ancient bottle-style battery in the air then I am safe to pull on the cable. No problems so far (I've been using it for 3 years like that). I also haven't heard of any single person for whom unplugging the cable of their Lupines would have caused a problem. But YMMV because of your injury.
> 
> If you don't like the product feel free to return it, I'm sure Gretna will take it back and you would be able to spend your hard earned cash on products that better suit your needs. End of story.


Me too.

Actually the connectors androgen specifies are not water tight either nor are they easy to make connections. The also are not power connections. Water/weather tight connections mean tight fit. Power connectors mean larger conductors and more friction. There just isn't much you can do about either of those AND weather/water tight is an essential even critical characteristic of these lights.

Having spent a lot of time with marine electronics (watertight etc..), I'd put the Lupine ones down as pretty doggone good.

I also think it's going to be pretty hard to find a connector that is better than what Lupine uses. I know the Dinotte ones are as hard to separate or worse. Any water tight/weather tight connector I've ever seen is more difficult to disconnect than one that isn't.

If it's that big of a problem, either work on another strategy for taking them apart or get a light that has an integrated battery.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Me too.
> 
> Actually the connectors androgen specifies are not water tight either nor are they easy to make connections. The also are not power connections. Water/weather tight connections mean tight fit. Power connectors mean larger conductors and more friction. There just isn't much you can do about either of those AND weather/water tight is an essential even critical characteristic of these lights.
> 
> ...


in the videos i saw of L&M Seca the connector looked promising. also L&M makes scuba lighting no ?

as for the connectors i mentioned i didn't mean to use them directly, but as i said to adapt the tricks they use. in case of compression fitting though it is a plumbing connector for water pipes where water is at a pressure - so i don't know how you can say it is not watertight


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

androgen said:


> in the videos i saw of L&M Seca the connector looked promising. also L&M makes scuba lighting no ?
> 
> as for the connectors i mentioned i didn't mean to use them directly, but as i said to adapt the tricks they use. in case of compression fitting though it is a plumbing connector for water pipes where water is at a pressure - so i don't know how you can say it is not watertight


I don't think you will find the L&M connectors much different. Heavy rubber sheath over the connector for weather/water tightness, beefy connectors.

I'm very familiar with compression type connectors. They are not easy to get connected and they are typically large and heavy, they tend to be long in body leading to inflexibility. You also have to get them pretty tight and the tightening is pretty hard on the compression piece. They typically require tools to get tight enough for water tightness. I think you will find that the grip to operate those would be the same as or greater as for a Lupine style connector.

If you take the connectors you suggest and give them contacts appropriate to the power of these lights (amperage) to have low enough resistance AND make them watertight, you won't have a small easy to connect/disconnect connector either.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> I don't think you will find the L&M connectors much different. Heavy rubber sheath over the connector for weather/water tightness, beefy connectors.
> 
> I'm very familiar with compression type connectors. They are not easy to get connected and they are typically large and heavy, they tend to be long in body leading to inflexibility. You also have to get them pretty tight and the tightening is pretty hard on the compression piece. They typically require tools to get tight enough for water tightness. I think you will find that the grip to operate those would be the same as or greater as for a Lupine style connector.
> 
> ...


i do agree that a more complex connector would certainly add size and weight, as well it would require more *thinking* to operate. most people would rather pull harder than think. ok i give up !


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

No, it's not that "most people would rather pull harder than think." It's that the connector has to be weather and water tight, simple,low profile, low cost and lightweight. I'd safely hazard a guess that connector ease of disconnect probably doesn't even show up on the list of things users of these lights are concerned about.

J.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> No, it's not that "most people would rather pull harder than think." It's that the connector has to be weather and water tight, simple,low profile, low cost and lightweight. I'd safely hazard a guess that connector ease of disconnect probably doesn't even show up on the list of things users of these lights are concerned about.
> 
> J.


simple and low cost ? if those are the criteria then why not just buy magicshine ?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Think about it for a minute and it will come to you. 

J.


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