# Betty Vs Wilma



## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

During my last night ride at a local DTD I "lost" another MS pack. It got extremely hot when it was plugged into the charger and it was still hot after few hours, like it had a life of its own. 
So I have decided to spend my money on a real brand and I'm considering the Lupine.
The two candidates for the bar are the Wilma or the Betty 2 (22 deg). For most rides 1100 Lum is enough light for the bar, what I'm not sure of is, *how the beam will look like 
with the Betty set on medium (1180 Lum) with the 22 degree lens compared to the Wilma set on high (1100 Lum) which is 15 degree lens.*
Any idea?

BTW, I will be happy to get more ideas for good lights...


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

you could have 2 dinotte 1200l plus for less than one betty.........the 1200L is the brightest light in the world on a 4 cell battery.....i prefer dual spot lenses on it, rather than the default spot and flood..it is efficient and relatively cool.....betty is bright as hell but also generates more heat.....

piko though, is by far the best helmet light in the world......a generous 550 lumen, small and light.......

this combo balancing cost/weight/lumens i think cant be beat.......


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

Do U know what is the burn time for the 1200 in high?

My rides are mostly about 2-3 hours but from time to time I do 6-7 hours...


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

http://www.dinottelighting.com/manuals/1200-800PLUS_INST_B.pdf


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

eranpeled said:


> During my last night ride at a local DTD I "lost" another MS pack. It got extremely hot when it was plugged into the charger and it was still hot after few hours, like it had a life of its own.
> So I have decided to spend my money on a real brand and I'm considering the Lupine.
> The two candidates for the bar are the Wilma or the Betty 2 (22 deg). For most rides 1100 Lum is enough light for the bar, what I'm not sure of is, *how the beam will look like
> with the Betty set on medium (1180 Lum) with the 22 degree lens compared to the Wilma set on high (1100 Lum) which is 15 degree lens.*
> ...


 Are you going to be using a helmet light as well?? If so the Dinotte 1200L + is a smoking light for the bars with lots of flood.If your only going to ride with one light (should have two) the new Trailled Darkstar is now pumping out 1600 lumens and has had no price increase.Same price as the Dinotte, probably brighter, and longer run times.Also very small and light enough to use as a helmet light as well, which i think the 1200L+ would be bar only light. 
As for the Lupines,for your bars the Betty22 degree all the way.The beam will have more spill than the spot type beam the Wilma has,much more usable light,and more throw than the Dinotte.The six cell battery that comes with the Betty 7 will give you 5 hours run time i think, on the med setting. The Wilma though a good candidate for the bars, is better suited for road riding or single track without switchbacks,but really shines as a helmet light.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

I too tried the MS at first and had battery issues, so now I have the Betty II (both lens/ preferred the 22 degree). I just recently tried the Dinotte 1200l+.for a 2nd light, so have some experience with both Lupine,Dinotte and MS.

First Lupine: Suggest if you go the Lupine direction get the Betty over the Wilma, if you can afford it. The Betty at the 1100 lumen position is more efficient than the Wilma and you have the extra light, if you need it. The Betty is really a nice light, very programmable, lot of feedback on run-time, trouble free and the battery charger ONE is equivalent to a hobby charger with the readouts and charging options with voltage,current and AH used- nice. . The lamp head even gives you the battery voltage.

On the Dinotte light, I had a defective unit, so sent it back. Otherwise it seemed a very reasonable light, but too much flood for my riding style. The Betty definitely has more throw. Probably great for slow, switchback trails with a helmet light for throw. It has limited feedback on lamp real time feedback as compared to the Wilma/Betty - i.e. just normal or low battery indicator (mine never gave the low battery warning and just ran to battery shut-off). The Betty definitely out throws it even with the 22 degree lens at both full power and 1/2 power. 

The 1200L+ was just a bit brighter on the ceiling bounce test over the Betty 1/2 power 1100 lumen position, so the Dinotte is around 1200-1300 lumen.as rated. This is good. At fully power, the Betty smoked it, but it runs hotter. The Dinotte 1200L is very similar in its 8 XPG LEDs as the 7 for the Betty. At max output, the 1200L+ runs in a very sweet efficient spot (essential the Betty's 1/2 power position) and I suspect if you don't get a defective unit, it will have good lifetime reliability. Just will not be blindingly bright, since Dinotte does not drive the 8 LEDs hard. Not really a bad engineering trade-off and matches the relatively low power 4 cells 4.4AH battery capacity too. The Wilma at 4 LEDs for it 1100 lumen is driven much harder then either the Dinotte or Betty at 1/2 power and the reason I preferred the Betty.

I wish the 1200L+ had the option for two spot lens as it might offset the flood issue. But flood vs throw in a lamp head is not a quality issue, but just a design trade-off. I think Dinotte is too much flood. Lupine runs a little too hot in the center with even the 22 degree, but overall I will take the Lupine choice, when my speedometer shows over 38+ at night down a hill

And the comment you can buy 2 Dinotte 1200L+ vs one Betty is a little misleading, since the Betty has a much larger battery, nice carrying case and a much more expensive charge supplied with it. The Dinotte largest battery is only around 4.4AH,, a typicall 1 LED wall wart smart charger and only the cardboard shipping box.

Overall I think both Dinotte and Lupine are fair values (more so, if you can get a good discount on the Lupine). Your pay more the the Lupine, but you do get more features/'options. All bike lights today pretty much have hit a commodity level at the LED and driver level. The differentiation today is features and battery technology/quality.

The Dinotte just tries to hit a sweet spot and they hope you like their choices, since they don't really have any options on battery size, chargers or any customization of the lamp head. They have a pretty much take it or leave it approach on the discussion I have had with them. I find them frustrating to work with, since they seem a little dogmatic, but on the other hand get so much right too. I suspect this helps keep their cost down, but for picky folks like me ( that think they know what they want),they either just buy the Lupine or might be tempted to make their own light unless Dinotte just happen to hit your sweet spot. Lupine, on the other hand, perhaps because of their higher cost have a bigger design budget and just by sheer overkill cover a lot of bases with their LED upgrades, more lamp indicators, programming options, lens choices, battery sizes, and charger options.


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks so much for the detailed review...now I got a bigger headache.


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

eranpeled said:


> Thanks so much for the detailed review...now I got a bigger headache.


The Betty with the 22 degree is AWESOME.

If you haven't done a search yet here's a few more links to turn your headache into a migraine.:madman::madman:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=702659

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=690653

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=692465


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

woody.1 said:


> The Betty with the 22 degree is AWESOME.
> 
> If you haven't done a search yet here's a few more links to turn your headache into a migraine.:madman::madman:
> 
> ...


Thanks...!!!


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

skoor said:


> I too tried the MS at first and had battery issues, so now I have the Betty II (both lens/ preferred the 22 degree). I just recently tried the Dinotte 1200l+.for a 2nd light, so have some experience with both Lupine,Dinotte and MS.
> 
> First Lupine: Suggest if you go the Lupine direction get the Betty over the Wilma, if you can afford it. The Betty at the 1100 lumen position is more efficient than the Wilma and you have the extra light, if you need it. The Betty is really a nice light, very programmable, lot of feedback on run-time, trouble free and the battery charger ONE is equivalent to a hobby charger with the readouts and charging options with voltage,current and AH used- nice. . The lamp head even gives you the battery voltage.
> 
> ...


as stated earlier, i converted my dinotte to have 2 spots, just call and ask for the spot lens and do it yourself or they will do it for you, if ordering, just ask for it to be 2 spot lenses, way way better in my opinion.....and 2 1200L+ for less than one betty is not misleading....ok you don't get a fancy case, but a non issue for me.....and you don't get a fancy charger with voltage readouts and such, but who cares, just plug it in and it gets charged...and if you ask dinotte might give you a little break for buying 2 1200L.....

2 1200L+ = max 840 bucks, 2 lights, 2 batteries, 2 chargers, approx 2600 lumens that doesn't get very hot.....

930 bucks - one very bright betty 1850 lumens, gets a little hot so drops lumens to control heat, nice case and pretty charger.....

one 1200L+ and a piko = 1850 lumens, all offroad night riding should include a helmet light - 419 + 320 = 739......so same lumens, appropriately distributed, and save almost 200 bucks........hmmmmm.....plus spare 4c battery, 810 bucks, but 5 hours of run time on high for the bar light....

although i really don't think anybody needs 2 dinotte, again one 1200l+ with double spot lenses, plus the lupine piko is very very very good light..if you are a super lumaholic then one 1200L+ with spot/flood and one all spot would be some serious punch and spread of 2600 lumens.......dinotte batteries are cheap i think a 4 cell is 70 bucks, so very easy to have one 1200L+ and throw a spare battery 4c in your jersey pocket for longer rides....


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I have the Dinotte 1200L (not the plus) and it throws a ton of light. I use it for road biking in the fall. Most of the time it's on medium (~800 lumens or so). I only put it on high for descents. I also ride with a headlight, but it need to be light. Last year i used the light and motion vis 360. Didn't need it for the light, but I do aim it at drivers at intersections to make sure they see me. It's other purpose is backup if my battery dies or if I have a problem and lose my lighting. I will probably trade the Vis 360 for a Piko this fall - same application.

The Dinotte is a quality light. The 1200L (not plus) is not too much flood and it does have considerable throw. When you get to the 1000 lumens range there generally is a lot of spill since you just have so much light to start with. 

J.


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

Now I have a migraine....

I'm looking for some nice beam shots of the 1200+ or the 1200 (btw - what is the deference between them?) , but not from the manufactures sites...


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

I knew you would get a migraine.

I have a Betty with 22 degree, 1100 Lumen Wilma, and the Piko. The Betty is the newest light for me and I had the Wilma for 2+ years before I got the Piko in the fall of 2010. When I purchased the Wilma it was 920 Lumens and I upgraded it last year to 1100. That is a really nice plus with the Lupines that all lights are upgradeable. 
I ride most mornings on mostly paved trails and the Wilma on the bars is great, but when you hit the trail for night riding it is very nice to have a helmet light as well. This spring I got the Betty for the bars and my morning rides I use the Piko on the helmet, but for the twisty tight singletrack at night I really like the Wilma on the helmet and Betty on the bars.

Rule the Night,
Woody


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

*I just found a nice discussion*

regarding the 1200 Vs 1200+

here


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

eranpeled said:


> regarding the 1200 Vs 1200+
> 
> here


if considering these 2, get the 1200+ it is an absolute no brainer.....brighter/lighter/more efficient.........


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

thanks for the link on the 1200 and the 1200+. Hadn't seen that before.

Some comments:

1. Beamshots at this level of light are not all that helpful. They are so bright that the cameras cannot even begin to accurately show the quality of the beam, especially in the spill., They will all show it dropping off to dark much faster than it actually does. They also show the center pretty much blown out. A camera can only represent 5-6 f-stops (doublings) of light whereas the human eye sees about 20 or an additional 14 doublings of light. I would take beamshots with a large grain of salt. They are most accurate when you look at throw as opposed to spill.

2. I'm a bit concerned about the artifacts in the spill of the 1200+ beam though,. There are those two wings out on the edge that are pretty dramatic. At this level of light one should expect a nice smooth transition. I'm wondering if that is a brake cable or something in the light.

3. At the 1200, the 1200L+, the Wilma or the Betty I would think that you would pretty much be not riding at full power unless you are descending. It really does get to be too much and wipes out your peripheral vision at night if you run it full out 100% of the time. I think I'd be more looking to make sure that I really liked the medium setting (800 lumens seems about right) as opposed to being worried about the "high beams." You need the high when you need it and it's hard to have too much, but my guess is you will spend the bulk of riding time not on the high setting.

Of these four lights - 1200, 1200+, Wilma and Betty - it would be impossible to make a wrong choice. They are all excellent.

Do spend some time looking at the battery issue. The lights will last pretty much forever, but the batteries will only last 3 years or so at or near full capacity - it's a characteristic of the chemistry of Li-ion batteries. They just die of old age at a pretty young age. Dinotte batteries are inexpensive so it makes sense to have extras. The Lupine batteries are really pricey but the lights are somewhat better. 

J.


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

The batteries price is something in which I did not think about...thanks for lighting this point out.

Eran.


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## bashtee (Mar 2, 2010)

Wilma alone (handlebar) is enough to rule my regular night ride (on fire roads)...it's just so white, you'll feel bad for the hikers when you pass them. Woody helped me a lot for my decision.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

I think JohnJ summarized it well. You can not really make a bad decision on the Lupine or Dinotte.

Just did some checking on the prices using the discount that I got on the Betty last year. Using the same discount and just looking at lamp heads the difference in cost between the Betty and Wilma is $116. For me, it was worth the difference for the reasons I stated.

And just looking at lamp head and using the same discount, the premium for the Betty over the Dinotte 1200+ is 34%.using Dinotte web prices. Definitely a premium, but as stated I think I got fair value.

The battery cost are a big consideration. Thanks to Geoman even for the Lupine, the cost is much more reasonable now.

What is gong to be interesting is if Dinotte and Lupine can compete with the Chinese made lights using the same LEDs or even the new XM-l. My guess is that Dinotte is more a risk, since they are basically just offering a higher quality, USA made lights except for their taillights, which are unique in the market even today. Lupine has the Germany cachet and does have some unique features/'options. 

Time will tell, but I do like, if possible, to buy from American small speciality businesses. I took a chance on ordering online only the 1UPUSA bike rack and have just amazed at the quality and design even if it cost $300 for one bike and $500 for two.

Glad we still have some Made in USA options around. And if you follow some of the economics forums, China is getting so expensive, they think some manufacturing might come back here. That would be a new twist. LOL.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

So far, the Chinese lights have not come close. Lots of greatly inflated lumens rating vs true lumens out the front and significant reliability issues. That probably won't change anytime soon either. They seem to be concentrating on the low end where there is higher volume.

I've had an instance in my early days of night riding when I rode with only a single light. That light failed and I was stuck in a rural wooded areas on a moonless night in the dark. That's an experience I don't want to replicate ever again. Riding with two lights, or having a backup light is necessary as well as having good, reliable gear. That goes for road or mtb riding.

J.


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

Mostly I ride single tracks in our local forest and from time to time in remote desert trails.


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

eranpeled said:


> The batteries price is something in which I did not think about...thanks for lighting this point out.
> 
> Eran.


Geoman is selling a battery for Lupines made by a different German company, which is less expensive than Lupine with longer run time. The company is called "Open Light Systems" and I bought the 8.7 for the Betty and it works great. The 8.7 fits in the same softcase as the 7.5 Lupine.
I got my from OLS direct and that's because Geoman didn't have the paperwork worked out with OLS.

Here's the link to OLS' website: http://www.open-light.de/en/Batteries for Lupine/

Here's the specs of the 8.7: http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_45&products_id=270

Woody


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

bashtee said:


> Wilma alone (handlebar) is enough to rule my regular night ride (on fire roads)...it's just so white, you'll feel bad for the hikers when you pass them. Woody helped me a lot for my decision.


Hey Bashtee,
Glad I could help and I hope you are enjoying you choice.

Woody


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

woody.1 said:


> Geoman is selling a battery for Lupines made by a different German company, which is less expensive than Lupine with longer run time. The company is called "Open Light Systems" and I bought the 8.7 for the Betty and it works great. The 8.7 fits in the same softcase as the 7.5 Lupine.
> I got my from OLS direct and that's because Geoman didn't have the paperwork worked out with OLS.
> 
> Here's the link to OLS' website: http://www.open-light.de/en/Batteries for Lupine/
> ...


Interesting. I wonder how long before Lupine and Geomangear are discussing this. 

J.


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## eranpeled (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks Woody, I will look into it as well.


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

skoor said:


> I think JohnJ summarized it well. You can not really make a bad decision on the Lupine or Dinotte.
> 
> Just did some checking on the prices using the discount that I got on the Betty last year. Using the same discount and just looking at lamp heads the difference in cost between the Betty and Wilma is $116. For me, it was worth the difference for the reasons I stated.
> 
> ...


How do you get a discount on the lupines


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

suvowner said:


> How do you get a discount on the lupines


Call up the guys at Gretna Bikes and ask to see if they can do something for you. I know sometimes they can work a little magic.
BTW, everyone at Gretna Bikes are great to deal with.

http://gretnabikes.com/lupine_lights.asp

Woody


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## suvowner (Oct 17, 2006)

woody.1 said:


> Call up the guys at Gretna Bikes and ask to see if they can do something for you. I know sometimes they can work a little magic.
> BTW, everyone at Gretna Bikes are great to deal with.
> 
> http://gretnabikes.com/lupine_lights.asp
> ...


Ok dinotte will do the same thing, ESP for repeat customers


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

suvowner said:


> Ok dinotte will do the same thing, ESP for repeat customers


Yep. Talk to Rob. He's very interested in seeing people take up night riding. He's a bike lighting evangelist. He'll make it work for you.

J.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

Yep, develop a relationship for the best discounts and, if they are interested, give them feedback on their products. I got both the Lupine and Dinotte at discount from online listed web prices.

Below is what I use for limp home backup (if you can call 190 lumen limp mode). Better than moonlight or a candle  Actually, before I got a real bike light, this was what I was using for short rides.

Holder for any 2 cell AAA/CR123 flashlights
http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?products_id=273.

Here is my light (I have the R5 bin) and I use Eneloops AAs, but even a cheap $10 AA from Target or Walmart will get you home.
[http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=297_330&products_id=2506


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

skoor said:


> Yep, develop a relationship for the best discounts and, if they are interested, give them feedback on their products. I got both the Lupine and Dinotte at discount from online listed web prices.
> 
> Below is what I use for limp home backup (if you can call 190 lumen limp mode). Better than moonlight or a candle  Actually, before I got a real bike light, this was what I was using for short rides.
> 
> ...


That my friend is no " limp home " light, unless of course you are still 10 miles from home and have to use the lower mode levels.  Otherwise, 200lm is a decent amount of light. I was going to add that the P-7 and XM-L drop-in torches that use the 18650 batteries make great back ups but since your using Lupine and Dinotte products the upgrade to a 18650 powered torch would seem unnecessary.



> Yep, develop a relationship for the best discounts and, if they are interested, give them feedback on their products. I got both the Lupine and Dinotte at discount from online listed web prices.


Yes I agree. I can't comment about Lupine but the Dinotte people are good about giving discounts, particularly on combo deals. Occasionally you might even get something free. However the Achilles heel of Dinotte is that they won't discuss technical issues or custom configurations for their light systems. If you want to order that new 1200Lplus with duel spot optics...not going to happen. If you want to know if the driver on your current 800L will work with your 11.1 volt Li-ion battery (?)....forget it, they're not going to tell you. :bluefrown:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

to me, 200 lumens is a limp home light. No doubt about it.

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> to me, 200 lumens is a limp home light. No doubt about it.
> 
> J.


...Spoken like a true _Power Light Head freak_....:lol:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...Spoken like a true _Power Light Head freak_....:lol:


Yep. How fast we become jaded. There is no such thing as light that is too bright.

J.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

JohnJ- Anything less than 1100 lumen seem dark now day to me. Gulp...

Cat- With that particular light AA, 2nd step down is 83 lumens (47 claims ANSI) for 5 hours. I did order a 16850 tube and protected battery for another 47 light, but about that time I just decided to go with the Lupine, when I got the great deal. One reason, as I recall, on that light with the 18650, it did not moonbeam, but just dropped the light output quickly, when the protection circuit kicked-in- never had an issue, but always there.

Cat- See all you other posts, to have question on single point of failure (SPF). I assume that if you have multiple LEDs, most driver boards work if one LED pops? So that would make the likely SPF failure to be the driver, connectors and battery unless you just have one emitter. I assume battery failures are rare after the first couple of uses and when they do go bad, you get some indications like reduced run time/etc. Higher-end lights probably have less chance of driver/connector;/battery failures, in general. But any connectors and be pulled by a branch or tumble.. So do most failures occur at the connectors? An just most normal wear or breakage of connectors even for cheaper lights once you get pass the 30 break-in period for electronics?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's see, I started with a night rider with halogen bulbs something like 20 years ago. Total PITA. Then when LEDs came out, started with the Dinotte 200's, then the 600L. Added a 400L to the helmet then a 1200L instead of the 600 and ditched the 400. Of course, had to have the 400R taillight (a wonderful light). Now I'm thinking maybe a Wilma or a Betty with a Piko. This is getting ridiculous.

But seriously, how does the Wilma compare to my current 1200? (uh oh.)

J.


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

skoor said:


> Below is what I use for limp home backup (if you can call 190 lumen limp mode). Better than moonlight or a candle


I got a nano battery that I keep with me on all night rides.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> But seriously, how does the Wilma compare to my current 1200? (uh oh.)
> J.


The reason I ordered the 1200l+ was not so much the interest in the headlamp as wanting to get a 400R taillight to augment a 140R for daylight visibility on streets. Since, with Dinotte, you have to buy a combo to get a good deal, the 1200L+ was a reasonable option and it did allow the same battery and lights for a hybrid bike I use for street. Good plan and good price. I like the engineering of the 8 XPG on the 1200l+ over the 4 on the Wilma or even the BR4. I think a light should not be over-driven and Dinotte apparently does also. Heat is a killer not just for the LEDs, but the driver board too. As noted, I prefer the Betty over the Wilma just to drive it at more reasonable level for most riding.say 1100-1200 lumens.

Got a call from Rob at Dinotte, he said he could switch out the lens to make it more spot. And he is going to check out the operation of the light on their test bench. He commented, since I did no actual test ride (not wanting to take chance for any damage on my part), that my synthetic test rundown test might not be valid for normal operations on a real bike.

Update: Dinotte tested and agreed the light low battery warning was defective. Offered to sent repaired unit back, but for several reasons declined.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The 400R is awesome. I'm really hoping they do a version of that that is self contained like the 300R. Be nice to not have to hassle with batteries.

I have the 1200 not the 1200+. It's ok, but a little more brightness would be nice (isn't that always the case??).

J.


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## skoor (Jun 9, 2009)

Came close to ordering the 300R, just for the no cables. A 400R with built-in user replaceable battery would be perfect. Just those darn Li-ion only last 3-4 years even if you baby or don't even use them and hate to sent it in just for a battery. I did talk to Rob about the 300R. They don't drive it as hard, since it has the built-in battery.

I like the 400R beam pattern better than the 140R AA version I have. I was a little concerted the 400R might be too bright. It is not. And it has more peripheral visibility over the 140R. I had ordered the 2 cell, on hindsight, I think I would get the 4 cell, get the longer runtime and and just not mess with recharging after every ride and the cables. Probably could get 4-7+ rides easily.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

When I talked with them last fall, the battery in the 300R is replaceable (user replaceable if you an use a screwdriver). I'm hoping LED efficiency brings us a self contained 400R this year.

For lights, the 400R was one of the best purchases I ever made. Completely changed car driver behavior in a major way as they approach me.

J.


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