# Bought a new dj'er, want to switch already



## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

Long story short, I recently purchased a 08' Kona Stuff. I have riding experience, but nothing too advance, I wanted to get into urban riding so I got this hardtail. 

After a month I felt the frame is just a bit bigger than what I want. My XC is has a longer reach but thats for a different purpose. I did kind of rush into buying one.

I have been watching trials videos and practicing the basics, it just feels too big to whip around. And I understand that this frame is hard to manual/catwalk so I am looking for frames.

Kona Stuff L (17')
Me: 5'11
Purpose: dirt jump and trials

My friend who knows quite a bit suggested the STP frame. I read a lot about Zebdis or Black Market and many others I can't remember right now being recommended. The selection is just so vast I can't quite point my finger at one. 

Something real simple and clean would be nice. Just throw some names at me and I'll research on it. The Kona Shonky looks like a decent frame. (I know, whats with the Kona obession?)

Sorry for long post, I would really appreciate any comments.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

dude, everyone talks the black market up. such a good frame. its made by S&M(bmx company) so it rides tight and you can whip it around. i was doing bunny hop 360s first try in the parking lot after building mine up. i sold mine after riding it 3 times, no 26" feels as good as a bmx to me though.


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## jawdrop on hardtail (Dec 6, 2007)

Buy a medium frame. You could probably even use a small at 5'11, I wouldn't rule them out.


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## juanbeegas (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm 5'11 and feel the most comfortable on anything with a 22.5"+/- 0.2" top tube, don't know how well this would suit you, but it might be a good place to start when looking for a new frame.


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

there are ton of companies out there. if you didn't like the feel of your kona then don't jump right back in and buy anothe one. try something new.

here is some companies to look up that make some of the best stuff out right now.

NS bikes- look at the suburban 24 or 26 or if you want to do total street then look at the capital (thats what im getting, i also plug these guys first because i have a 07 ns suburban frame im selling for a good deal, pm me if your interested)

Blk Mrkt- already mentioned but worth mentioning again, i have only put my leg over one but they seemed to be dialed

dobermann bikes- look crazy sweet, very solid frames that have lots of options, especially if you have the money to buy a custom made one

Superco- probably the sickest mtb style street bike out there right now, but they will cost you, alot. my friend rides the 24" version and it is crazy light and fun.

for a cheap, complete options look into
Eastern night train or thunderbird- the 08's have sick paint jobs and really short chainstays. they have some heavy parts but you can replace them as you go. 

ok and now the "real" urban options
tonic fab fall guy or union street bikes molly or NS capital- these bikes are part bmx and part mtb. they use bmx rear hubs and 24" wheels. you can run a rigid or suspension fork. short chainstays and very flickable. v-brake only but you won't destroy a disc if you like to grind
im going to get flammed for this but 24's are going to be stronger, lighter, and make your bike more flickable for street. you can run a shorter top tube and still have clearance for barspins. but this is the important part, only get 24's if you buy a 24 specific frame!!!!!!

now some things to look for
top tube- probably should be around 22.5 for 26's and 21.8 for 24's for barspin clearance
chainstays- close to 15.5 for 26's and 14.75 for 24's
horizontal dropouts- a must, just trust me
short seat tube- under 13 is good but the lower the better for getting your leg over in tricks
weight- these days getting a frame under 5.5 pounds isn't too hard to find, but worth it
material- steel is best, no aluminium, enough said
headangle- i would say for street 70 would be a minimum but some go all the way up to 72.5 which will feel more like a bmx and makes fakie tricks a little easier.

so with all of this being said i would stay away from another kona and other aluminium frames for street. people own the dirt jumps on them but i think steel is a better street bike.

i want to end with saying that this is all opinion!!!! i know people will disagree (especially about the 24's) im just giving him my opinion which is what he was asking for.
hope this helps


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## TheSamurai (May 13, 2008)

i have an stp and i like it. you could check also out the norco evolve or manifesto.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

Heh. I did almost exactly the same thing. Bought a Kona Cowan to ride FR/DH trails but hated it on the street. Then I bought a Long Trail or Park. Chainstays were better, but the TT was still too long. Then I bought a medium (22.5) and it was pretty much perfect. Since then I have ridden a bike with even shorter TT (21.5 or so) and it was still pretty good, although I prefer slightly longer. I am 6' even.

JMH


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

jmh,
haven't seen you for a while, as soon as the riding in the mountains get bad we should hook up and do some urban again. 

but like he said 22.5 for 26" is pretty good. i like a little smaller so the bike is more flickable but then you will hit your foot on the tire if you barspin if you run 26"

the frame im buying is 21.9 but im going to be using 24's. its all personal pref.


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

Yeah, pretty much most if not all the frames I'm interested in are probably BMX influenced, the geometry on those are just right. Like how the top top just goes straight to the rear axle, unlike mine which has a higher seat tube.

Thank you all for the inputs, breaking down the TT and the CS numbers are really a great help. Helps me narrow down the selection some. Funny thing is I have two friends now who ride STPs, the tallest one which is 6'1 rides a small frame while the shorter one (5'8) rides a medium. I rode them, nice bikes, but it didn't really feel quite right to me, maybe I just need some more miles on them. Another guy had an Ellsworth (don't remember the model), boy was that thing flickable, and I believe it is a medium frame.

And yeah I'm planning to go steel, the Kona Shonky is steel but from what I've read the chainstays on those are still the same length as their DJ bikes, so I'll probably just stay away from them. One of the mechanics at my LBS has a Shonky actually so I'm going to give it a test run before I rule them out completely.

Get back to you on that NS Suburban climbingbubba 

Anyone familiar with Brooklyn Machine Works? I would love to have a piece of NY with me even though I am in New York :laugh:

Some things I should've mentioned earlier
budget: 400-500 (preferably a new frame)
weight: 165 lbs

A little piece of heaven doesn't come cheap, seeing how I just splurged 9 bills for this Kona with less than 2 months ownership, I'm trying to keeps costs down. $700 frames are a bit steep for me now.

Thanks again for all the inputs!


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Brooklyn machine works have a new frame out but im not sure what its called. the older park bike is heavy and has long chainstays for being 24 specific. they are also pretty expensive. One of the designers from Brooklyn moved over here to utah and helped design/start a new company.....SUPERCO. he goes by doc. if your willing to drop that much on a frame then superco are pretty sweet ($750)

the ellsworth one you tried is probably the Specialist. its their street/dj/trials frame. haven't seen them lately though.

NS bike are sweet. i liked my suburban with 26's. it manualed like crazy!!! i wanted 24's for street and that changed the geo and now its hard to manual. if you are looking for a 26" frame then the one im selling is sweet. they only weigh 5.1 pounds i think. its pretty much new, only a few scratches. if want to know more PM me so we can leave this thread for usefull frame info.

good luck


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## chicohigh5 (Mar 15, 2007)

check out atomlab the trail king is one of the dopest frames out there and i swear by my trailpimp it just feels so natural plus they look awesome


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

DJ and trials bikes are just so different, finding a happy medium between the two will be hard.


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

snaky69, apparently _Woodman_ disagrees
some call it "Ryan Leech style frame" with a fork

Found this great site that list some frames that fit the the ideal geometries you guys mentioned

*Atomlab Trail King*
A 26" frame that handles like a 20", ideal for Jump, Park or Pump Track Bottom bracket box-gusset and contoured seat tube allow for shortest possible stays 4130 butted, gusseted CrMo tubing with 135mm OLD horizontal dropouts Integrated headset (41mmx45deg) sold separately English threaded BB (no ISCG chain guide mount) International Standard 51mm disc mount. 5.2lbs 
ST - 11.5" 
TT - 23.5" 
CS - 14.5-15.5" 
Head Angle - 69 deg 
Seat Angle - 70 deg 
Headset - 1-1/8" Integrated 
BB - 68mm 
Seatpost - 26.6mm 
F - Derail - 28.6mm 
Color - black/red/white
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/FR/FRFR/AL/AL9751?page=1#AL9751

*Commencal Absolut CrMo VIP 2008 Frame*
A tough, purpose-built Dirt Jump and Urban use hardtail Nuts CrMo tubing with top/downtube gussets and horizontal dropouts Includes sliding disc brake mount, Campy-type integrated headset, chain tensioner, and a seat tube clamp 
ST - 12.6" (long) 
TT - 22.4"
CS - 15.2-16.4"
Head Angle - 69.5 deg 
Seat Angle - 73 deg 
Headset - 1-1/8" Integrated 
BB - 68mm 
Seatpost - 27.2mm 
F Derail - 31.8mm 
Color - white 
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/FR/FRFR/CL/CL8571?page=1#CL8571

*NS B!tch 2008*
NS's economical all-around extreme use frame for Slopestyle, Hucking, Shore riding, Urban, Freeride, etc 4130 CrMo steel frame with horizontal dropouts, bolt-on derailleur hanger, disc only Adjustable caliper angle 51mm International Standard disc brake mount Approved for use with all forks 100-140mm travel. 6.2 lbs 
ST - 13.8" 
TT - 22.95" 
CS - 15.55-16.65" 
Head Angle - 68.5 deg 
Seat Angle 70 deg 
Headset - 1-1/8" 
BB - 73mm 
Seatpost - 27.2mm 
F Derail - 28.6mm 
Color - white/black
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/FR/FRFR/NS/NS1551?page=1#NS1551

Woodman Elite
Welded 7005 Alcoa aluminum for Urban/Trials riding Gusseted top and down tubes, CNC headtube Short square chainstays with CNC machined aluminum yoke Vertical dropouts with replaceable derailleur hanger 51mm International Standard mount and Magura HS rim brake direct mount (brake post adapter for standard rim brakes sold separately) Includes Deathgrip QR collar and Saver chainstay protector. 4.6lbs

ST - 13" 
TT - 22.5" 
CS - 15.75" 
Head Angle - 71 deg 
Seat Angle - 73 deg 
Headset - 1-1/8" 
BB - 68mm 
Seatppost - 27.2mm 
F Derail - 31.8mm 
Color - black
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/category/FR/FRFR/WN/WN0121?page=1#WN0121

I've never heard Commencal, anyone have experience with them?
The frame looked pretty solid, so I threw it in for you guys to check out.
Let me know what you guys think


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## R1D3R (Jun 4, 2005)

I love my Dobermann Pinscher... It's pretty much the definition of flickable


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## mesier (Jun 5, 2007)

climbingbubba said:


> NS bikes- look at the suburban 24


Suburban 24 '08 is a crap. Too many snapped frames. If you already bought this one, please ride lite.


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## TheSamurai (May 13, 2008)

two of those are in the same area? looks like something that might need to be sorted out by the company, huh?


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## HardLuck682 (Mar 20, 2008)

i have the AtomLab TrailKing... and i LOVE it! 
im about 5'7" and i was thinking that the 22+" top tube would be too long for me, but it isnt. the BB Height is about 2" higher than my P.2, and i dont feel streatched out at all... its a really nice ride. ive ridden some of my friends bikes, Blk Mrkt MOB, Dobermann, Fettish, and Jackyls. several of them even stated that if they didnt have what they had, they would now be getting my frame.








it has a long front end to compensate for the short rear end, and feels awesome!


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## mesier (Jun 5, 2007)

TheSamurai said:


> two of those are in the same area? looks like something that might need to be sorted out by the company, huh?


Sure!


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

HardLuck682 said:


> i have the AtomLab TrailKing... and i LOVE it!
> im about 5'7" and i was thinking that the 22+" top tube would be too long for me, but it isnt. the BB Height is about 2" higher than my P.2, and i dont feel streatched out at all... its a really nice ride. ive ridden some of my friends bikes, Blk Mrkt MOB, Dobermann, Fettish, and Jackyls. several of them even stated that if they didnt have what they had, they would now be getting my frame.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow sweet build, nice and clean, I'm going to look into that frame a bit more.
What type of riding you do by the way?

Yeah those stress cracks look pretty serious.


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## toonces (Feb 13, 2004)

how much seatpost above and below the toptube were those NS bikes using?


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## mesier (Jun 5, 2007)

toonces said:


> how much seatpost above and below the toptube were those NS bikes using?


 
How to understand this?


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## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

yeah i heard that the 08 NS suburbans have some issues. the 07's are supposed to be stronger and lighter.
the NS b!tch is there bottom of the line frame. its heavier, weaker, and designed kind of weird. not really street or DJ. its more of a freeride frame kind of like transition vagrants and banshee morphine's but weaker then those two.

the trailking looks pretty sweet. i almost bought one and if i was going to buy another 26" frame that would be the one. the only downside is the High BB and long TT. i guess it would work out though if you lowered your fork alot cause it would steepen the headangle, lower the BB and you would still have room for x-ups/barspins.


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## JDougherty07 (Apr 23, 2008)

have you ever thought about buying a BMX bike. I ride some xc on a 26" but for street I ride a BMX bike and BMX bike so much more nimble.


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## toonces (Feb 13, 2004)

mesier said:


> How to understand this?


how far was the seatpost inserted into the frame, and how far was the seatpost extending out of the frame?


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

This past weekend there was a MTB jam in my neighborhood. Few well-known guys showed up. Now I hate buying into hype, but most of these guys were riding Brooklyn Machine Works and they were pretty sweet, though these guys ride on 24's. Two others rode the Trailkings (most of these guys are sponsored riders), then a Cannondale and some others I can't remember. Guy on Trailking was doing some crazy manuals. I think I've decided on the Atomlab Trailking, its got good geometry for what I want to do.


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## mesier (Jun 5, 2007)

toonces said:


> how far was the seatpost inserted into the frame, and how far was the seatpost extending out of the frame?


I have no idea.
Nobody pull out seatpost on its whole length for park or street riding...
AFAIK, green frame used only in park.


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

*Versus Cycles Jab*

Just thought I show you guys a different company to consider if anyone plans to get something similar to what I'm looking for.

http://www.versuscycles.com/jab_detail.html

A guy I met through a friend yesterday had one of these. Bike is really light, and flick-able.
Manualling, pedal kicking, is so much easier on this frame. Pretty good balance in the air also. Steel 4130 butted, MSRP is like 499.

Something to consider, I am contemplating between this and the AtomLab Trailking at the moment.

Anyone own one of these?


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## LongyZ (Aug 11, 2008)

You could get the Transition trail or park frame (around $700), or maybe a P1 or 2.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

*Steel?*

Not going to start the Steel Vs. Aluminum debate, I like both. If you don't need tight street geometry, I have been loving my Corsair Ducat... 15.9" chainstays and stable on the jumps (important to me since I am not a very skilled dirt jumper), not too shabby on the street. Since any geometry is a compromise, I think it strikes a good balance.

Green one is size Long, the gold one is a Reg and belongs to Chuky. Geometry is here: http://www.corsairbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=bike&taxid=62&sublayout=bikegeometry

JMH


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## cheda (Jul 7, 2008)

700 is a bit steep for me, 500 is the most I can spend for a frame. I should also mention again that I am looking for a frame that has decent geometry for trials and hucking around. 

I would like to see that Corsair in person before deciding on one. I have never seen a Corsair around here.

I sprained my left wrist, which sucks because my buddies are gapping stairs while I sit and look pretty on my blue/white bicycle. I need to get back into it. Advice for my left wrist?


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