# Dealing with Jerks



## sprocket7 (Dec 16, 2015)

How do you all handle the inevitable negative comments that come from the community? I’m an active maintainer for a local park and while the vast majority of the feedback we get is positive, there is always the occasional guy on social media complaining that we are « ruining » or « dumbing down » the trails. Just today in fact, I was on my way into the woods, loaded with gear, and a guy passed by riding, he asked quickly if I was doing work.


Hey man, you doing work?
Yeah, we’re volunteers, today just working on an eroded corner.
Cool but stop ruining the trail!
Hey, were dealing with erosion and making it better.
No, your making it worse and it’s too easy now, you’re ****ing ruining it.
That a dickish comment.
Well your still ruining it!
I built the trail asshole!
Well your ruining it!!!


All of this while the guy is riding off into the distance. He didn’t even stop to talk or explain himself. Here I am loaded with gear. And he just blows by like that.


I was mad so I called him an asshole. Probably out of line of me... 


So how do you deal with this? The work we do is sanctioned and approved. We are fixing eroded areas, widening, mud holes, and generally improving a trail that was made official. The land manager wants it to be an intermediate trail. So we work with that in mind.


Anyway - there seems to be 5% of the riding population that will complain vocally about everything...


This tool ruined my day.


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

Been in the non-profit volunteering gig at all levels for 20 years. The jerks are always present. They never go away. I'm always amazed how cruel they are sometimes to volunteers. They are mean to people using their free time to help trails. It truly is mind blowing. I've been doing it so long I just tune it out. Like you said, the vast majority are really happy with what we do. Sorry you dealt with that! Really sucks. 


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Pow! Right in the kisser. 

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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I deal with them by ignoring them. Of course, if they get too assertive about their opinions I usually have an excavator around.....


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

The short answer is you'll never make everyone happy... in the sense that there's too many personalities, riding styles, skill levels, etc. Everyone wants something different, it's impossible to please everyone. 

A-holes will be A-holes regardless.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Stick in the wheel....

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## habsfan (Jun 10, 2011)

I've been building and maintaining for decades and I tune everyone out - good or bad - as others said, you can't make everyone happy and don't even try. asshats will always be asshats. The very few times I've gotten pissed at someone, all I say is 'come to the next trail day and show me what you got' - always works.

I've also found that the asshats have never gotten dirt under their fingernails from trail work.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Tell him to you can’t hear anything he is saying until he gets 40 volunteer hours logged.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

sprocket7 said:


> This tool ruined my day.


Take a step back and think about this... why give this person that kind of power over your day? They don't matter.

Sounds to me like you're doing all the right things for the right reasons. Keep at it.


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## drag_slick (Sep 24, 2004)

kapusta said:


> Tell him to you can't hear anything he is saying until he gets 40 volunteer hours logged.


Perfect!


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## C8N (Oct 20, 2017)

I have never ridden your trail but thank you for your hard work.
The work you do is totally awesome not matter what anybody says!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

sprocket7 said:


> How do you all handle the inevitable negative comments that come from the community?


Have you considered a handgun?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

habsfan said:


> The very few times I've gotten pissed at someone, all I say is 'come to the next trail day and show me what you got' - always works.


There really is nothing to top this. Tell him to get involved or STFU.

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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> Have you considered a handgun?


I know you're trying to be funny and you usually are. This ain't one of those times.

OP, just keep doing what you have been. I agree with the folks who said to invite the d-bag to a trail day. Usually shuts them right up.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

You ran into a dude who is concerned about the trail being not challenging enough. Those are the good guys, even if he was abrasive. The real shitbirds are the ones who carry a saw and shovel and remove obstacles to make the trail lamer.



> So how do you deal with this? The work we do is sanctioned and approved. We are fixing eroded areas, widening, mud holes, and generally improving a trail that was made official. The land manager wants it to be an intermediate trail. So we work with that in mind.


Grow a pair, maybe? Count your blessings?


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

TylerVernon said:


> You ran into a dude who is concerned about the trail being not challenging enough. Those are the good guys, even if he was abrasive. The real shitbirds are the ones who carry a saw and shovel and remove obstacles to make the trail lamer.
> 
> Grow a pair, maybe? Count your blessings?


Good guys? Seriously? Grow a pair? WTF?

I think we just heard the shitbird crow.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Rock said:


> Good guys? Seriously? Grow a pair? WTF?
> 
> I think we just heard the shitbird crow.


And now here you are, letting playground the insults fly. Perhaps some self examination is in order for you my friend.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Guy was a dick, for sure. However, there may be some legitimate feedback underneath the dick'ish comment. Perhaps you should take the feedback to the LM and explain that while you are maintaining the intermediate trails as intermediate, you recently have received feedback that some users would also like to see some harder / more difficult trails. Could be a win / win where you use the dick to actually get the go ahead for a new harder trail build!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

kapusta said:


> Tell him to you can't hear anything he is saying until he gets 40 volunteer hours logged.


I like this reply.

Also, I like to let complainers know that "those who dig, DECIDE"


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

ha I wuz riding the chunk and ran into two dudes building out more trail features and I said "oh boy this is awesome" while blasting thru

next day same crew just 1000 yards deeper, and I stopped and said "Hey you guys rock here is 40 bucks beer money for later today thanks for building this" 

they did not take my money, saying "oh no need to do that..."

those big jerks


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

A box of tissues never goes amiss 😁

Sent from MTBR.apk


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Probably best to act like you are listening to them and will take their comments into consideration.

Find a nice way to say that you're revitalizing the trail to what it once was and also building it for proper erosion control so the trail will last longer and require less maintenance.

Our local trails have also seen banter that the trails have been ruined. At one point, they were told to not destroy at least one trail, during trail work activities. 

Trails are beat up bad with horrible ruts and full of rocks. It was ridable but at more risk. Efforts to clean that trail were to add a few berms that helped shed water, smooth out the horrible ruts and essential move the rocks off the trail. Same line (mostly), same steeps. Same off cambers (in a few places).

Not everybody will be happy. New generation of riders who are learning will wonder why a trail was not cleaned up to be a beginner trail while senior riders will wonder why all the tech is being removed. It's a balancing act.

Just remember, your actions are going to be seen within the community. Calling out names make you look worse when guy talks to his friends about your attitude towards fellow riders. Then rumors can spread. If I know you, and found out you called somebody a name, so what. I know you're human and know you as a person. If I don't know you, my opinion of you may change, say that I hear second hand how you treated riders in our community.

Take the high road. Let the ones with strong opinions know you are doing work for the trail system as a whole but without telling them they are being an ass with their comments directed towards you.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

TylerVernon said:


> You ran into a dude who is concerned about the trail being not challenging enough. Those are the good guys, even if he was abrasive. The real shitbirds are the ones who carry a saw and shovel and remove obstacles to make the trail lamer.


IMO, Whether he wants the trail harder of easier has nothing to do with whether he is a "good guy". He was spouting off about something he does not know s#!t about. I know his type: they think that since they ride trals (maybe even raked a rouge trail that got ridden a dozen times), they know something about how to build and maintain them, and in fact know better than those who actually do it. These are NOT the good guys. They are ignorant, entitled d-bags.

If not for the fact that I have seen this happen myself (toward other trail-builders I know), I might think the story the OP is telling was BS. But it happens. People will b!tch about the folks who do all the work and in some cases actually built the trail.

Honestly, as much as I dislike when people make a trail section easier than I like , I've got way more respect for them than the guys like the OP ran into. At least they are willing to put the work in.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> "those who dig, DECIDE"


Yes. Around here we call that the "shovel committee".



Forest Rider said:


> Probably best to act like you are listening to them and will take their comments into consideration.


This works best if you actually DO listen, as it's hard to pull off acting like it in the face of true antagonism. Not impossible, just hard.

Jerks are everywhere. It sucks. I always try to give builders as much positive energy as I can when I see them. Especially since I don't actually put any blood/sweat/tears into the trails anymore these days.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

tbmaddux said:


> Yes. Around here we call that the "shovel committee".
> 
> This works best if you actually DO listen, as it's hard to pull off acting like it in the face of true antagonism. Not impossible, just hard.
> 
> Jerks are everywhere. It sucks. I always try to give builders as much positive energy as I can when I see them. Especially since I don't actually put any blood/sweat/tears into the trails anymore these days.


Exactly, my "real job / work" really focuses on all feedback, good or bad, as an opportunity to hear the message / driver underneath the actual feedback / complaint. That's more important to me than the words someone says.

I've run into this scenario where someone has a comment while I am digging. I actually immediately invite them to stop and give me a hand for a few minutes so we can chat about it. Most people will stop even if they don't intend on helping and I usually can get in one or two probing questions. A few of the comments have been actually super helpful and I implemented their idea. I know I don't always envision the perfect line and sometimes that extra set of eyes really helps!

I dig by myself 90% of the time, so any time I can get someone to provide real time feedback, I jump all over it!


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

I have seen it and heard it many times. 

"You are ruining the trails" as they ride through or, my favorite, post online behind a pseudonym.

Funny, there was not trails here before and I built these. Where were you in the planning, permitting, and most importantly building. We post work days in public places and forums. Too busy, not your cup of tea? Then STFU, go home, break out your finger bike, and pull of your rad moves in your room. I don't care, and other trail bosses, builders, and contributors should not either. Planning to make everyone happy is a guaranteed failure.

My personal favorite "You are sanitizing the trails" from one group and "These trails are too rough" from another on the SAME trail. Yes, that is a real problem.

I want the trails to remain forever. Water control is an important feature that prolongs the life. I know what I am doing after 10+ years. Please come and join me. I always love to hear other's opinions. I am not always right, just most of the time


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## sprocket7 (Dec 16, 2015)

bankerboy said:


> I have seen it and heard it many times.
> 
> "You are ruining the trails" as they ride through or, my favorite, post online behind a pseudonym.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the replies. Especially this one!

In this case, the land manager knows of the complaints about recent work dumbing the trail down and is working on a communication plan that explains the work and how it all fits into the larger picture. The guys that rip by have no clue really, they just see some guy making an eroded and slightly technical section, less eroded and slightly easier.

I also think there is a little bragging going on. It feels good to puff out you chest and complain about "easy" trails.

I'll continue to work with the land manager on this.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

The best trail center I go to, or at least I did until Corona, is Glentress in the Scottish borders. Many of the trails have multiple lines, usually signposted, so riders can pick how hard they want their life to be. Even on the main climb up the hill there are log skinnies by the side of the trail which get progressively more challenging as you go up the hill.

The post circled tells you the grading of the skinny. This is the easiest one and the first one you meet.









On other trails riders have carved out additional lines or shortcuts. Some of these get blocked off but if they're not too crazy and don't damage the main trail they are typically left in place.

Some descents split with either a Red or a Blue option, meeting up further down the hill.


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## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

It seems that most of the time the people who complain the most are the ones who would never consider learning about trail construction and actually lend a hand o do the work. Interesting trail features are not made by letting a poorly built section of trail erode. If B-line features are allowed to be built on a trail (often they are not) then they should be built properly to hold up over time and use.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

I only associate with assholes I like.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

endo_alley said:


> If B-line features are allowed to be built on a trail then they should be built properly to hold up over time and use.


_Nothing_ holds up over time and use!

Even with maintenance I've watched trails change over the years. It's inevitable. Trails do not stay the same whatever you do.


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## Dirtrider127 (Sep 17, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> The best trail center I go to, or at least I did until Corona, is Glentress in the Scottish borders. Many of the trails have multiple lines, usually signposted, so riders can pick how hard they want their life to be. Even on the main climb up the hill there are log skinnies by the side of the trail which get progressively more challenging as you go up the hill.
> 
> The post circled tells you the grading of the skinny. This is the easiest one and the first one you meet.
> 
> ...


That helmet hanging on his back is a smart move.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

sprocket7 said:


> This tool ruined my day.


My counselor would say I would have ruined my day since its up to me how I react and after years of counseling, which in reality is more of an anger management, I started to get the hang of it and it feels good.

Thanks to you and anybody else who does trail work.
This is on my bucket list to do once the whole virus thing blows over.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Dirtrider127 said:


> That helmet hanging on his back is a smart move.


It's a very tame climb, lot of people do that.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Say "Thanks and have a nice ride".

Then take a moment to reflect on the fact that in all likelihood, the number of positive comments you have received is far greater than the few negative ones.

And that, no matter what you do, someone is going to be unhappy, and that it's not your job to make the users of the trail happy anyway, but to do the best job you are able to do. (My guess is that more than half of all trail users have no idea that trails need maintenance.)

I don't get paid to engage with the public (or at all). I don't mind chatting for a few minutes with someone who is genuinely interested in what I'm doing, but it just irritates me to argue with idiots. 

A surprising percentage of trail users have the bizarre idea that the trail they like is going to remain the same if no one messes with it, and anything you do is going to change it for the worse. I've had zero success in attempting to convince users who are of the "let it develop naturally" school that the result is going to end with either the trail being abandoned by most of the other users (not their problem), the park management closing the trail, or both. You're at a disadvantage arguing with someone who doesn't believe in anything that isn't immediately in front of their face. Generally, these people have few friends, and little influence because they can be relied on to reveal their ignorance/stupidity when their mouth parts start moving.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Walt Dizzy said:


> I don't mind chatting for a few minutes with someone who is genuinely interested in what I'm doing, but it just irritates me to argue with idiots.


You can't reason with stupid people. You just make yourself stupider when you try!

There is a trail center near me which is no longer maintained. I don't know what happened but there was some kind of disagreement between the forestry commission, who own just about all of the land in Scotland you'd want to build trails on, and the people who built the trail. All of the trails are still there, still open etc but nothing gets done to them.

Personally, I kinda like it but the trails do not stay intact. Sections are very overgrown, edges collapsed on bankings and some parts are really rough and broken up. I think it just makes it more challenging and fun to ride but it's clearly not as it should be.

I imagine that eventually the trails will deteriorate so much they'll have to close them. There are trails at Glentress they've shut for that reason. Even with maintenance the trails change. There are paths and trails in the countryside around where I live that have vanished completely. Last week I went down into a glen I've not been in for decades and it was unrecognizable. It looks so different I would not have guessed where I was if I had been blindfolded and taken in.


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## gmats (Apr 15, 2005)

Bottom line. You can't please everyone. 

I work on a bunch of local trails. Often solo because I am single and not having to answer to a family. I understand many of my friends have other priorities and responsibilities. They thank me and apologize to me for not being able to help out. And then there are the people who are telling me they don't like this or don't like them. But I don't see them out on the trails with me helping me. It's a whole myriad of I want this or I don't like that. Bottom line. Can't please everyone and I just let it slide off. In the end. I'm the one that maintains the trail and I'm an advanced trail rider but understand it's not about just me. It's about having a trail experience that is fun and challenging in its own way to each person. Some day I won't be here and the trails will either be or not be maintained by someone out there. And it doesn't matter because at least I provided a great trail experience for 90% of all the people who come from all over the world to ride here in Hawaii.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> You can't reason with stupid people. You just make yourself stupider when you try!
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


It's OK to like challenging trail! I get it why people become upset about buffing trail. I've had life-altering experiences on old, washed out trails.

However, there is another aspect to this disagreement that drives me up the wall, the failure of the outraged folks to acknowledge a) the sheer quantity of trail that's deteriorating, and b) how small my efforts are in comparison. If there were a dozen people working at the problem, we might begin to make headway, but it should be glaringly obvious to anyone who takes a moment to reflect on the matter that this is not the case.

The trail is falling apart at least as fast as I can mend it, if not more so. But somehow the problem is me. It takes a certain obsessive, willful blindness to think this way. How does someone this dumb manage to feed themselves?

"You moved my favorite rock!", (referring to a piece of loose debris) is an actual complaint that will live on, as long as there are men to mock those who see trails through a microscope.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Walt Dizzy said:


> However, there is another aspect to this disagreement that drives me up the wall, the failure of the outraged folks to acknowledge a) the sheer quantity of trail that's deteriorating, and b) how small my efforts are in comparison.


Exactly. That's why even a maintained trail will not stay the same. It cannot. Even just laying gravel. At first it will be lose and slidey. After a while it will compact and be firm and smooth. Then it will erode, collect water and be rougher. It evolves, which I think is great! My only real concern is eBike damage to climbs.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Some percentage of the population will always have a high douche index. Whether it is lack of fiber in their diet or genitalia features on the wrong side of the bell curve, they are what they are. Your karmic tank is full from trail building, and that's what matters.

Oh, and don't make the trails too easy. ;-)


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Keep up the good work. Every rider has an opinion. The only opinion that matters is the rider who shows up on work days to work. Boots on the ground decide. That's all.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm in the camp of offering them a rogue hoe and inviting them to the next dig day. Like someone above said, they may even be correct, but their delivery may be all wrong. In one particular case, my wife who's relatively new to mtbing and an IMBA rep. both agree with someone that I did not know that suggested a specific section needs widened.


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

Say, "Wow, you sound like you know a lot about trail design and maintenance. You are just the kind of people we are looking for to help with our trail work! When do you want to help out? How about next Saturday?" You will never hear a word from him again.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

sprocket7 said:


> How do you all handle the inevitable negative comments that come from the community? I'm an active maintainer for a local park and while the vast majority of the feedback we get is positive, there is always the occasional guy on social media complaining that we are « ruining » or « dumbing down » the trails. Just today in fact, I was on my way into the woods, loaded with gear, and a guy passed by riding, he asked quickly if I was doing work.
> 
> Hey man, you doing work?
> Yeah, we're volunteers, today just working on an eroded corner.
> ...


Well I appreciate what you do. What some people, the ones that do trail work, don't appreciate is that erosion kills trails.

Don't piss off the cook.

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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

sprocket7 said:


> How do you all handle the inevitable negative comments that come from the community? I'm an active maintainer for a local park and while the vast majority of the feedback we get is positive, there is always the occasional guy on social media complaining that we are « ruining » or « dumbing down » the trails. Just today in fact, I was on my way into the woods, loaded with gear, and a guy passed by riding, he asked quickly if I was doing work.
> 
> Hey man, you doing work?
> Yeah, we're volunteers, today just working on an eroded corner.
> ...


No one has the power to ruin your day. You have no control over other people, only yourself. He can only ruin your day if you let him.


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## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

bankerboy said:


> I have seen it and heard it many times.
> 
> "You are ruining the trails" as they ride through or, my favorite, post online behind a pseudonym.
> 
> ...


Was working with an SDMBA crew at Crestridge years ago. Got yelled at by a hiker - A HIKER - for "dumbing down the trails," because we were decommissioning an old rain-rutted jeep trail that he used to take a shortcut. That decommissioning was part of the deal with the landowner to build a crapload of single track.

After the work was done and the beer & burgers were flowing, we were admonished by some horsey people for simply existing.

OG Karens.


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## JustMtnB44 (Nov 8, 2004)

the one ring said:


> Was working with an SDMBA crew at Crestridge years ago. Got yelled at by a hiker - A HIKER - for "dumbing down the trails," because we were decommissioning an old rain-rutted jeep trail that he used to take a shortcut. That decommissioning was part of the deal with the landowner to build a crapload of single track.


Most of the jerks I've been dealing with this year are hikers who love to create fall line shortcuts between trails or switchbacks. Some of which have been decommissioned a few times over the years, but then a new one pops up 20 ft away from the original - now closed - line. The one time I actually ran into some of the people and confronted them about it (after they walked over a dozen logs placed to block the path and right passed the 'Trail Closed' signs and laughed at them), the leader wouldn't listen and said something along the lines of "stop talking, I'm in a hurry" after I had just watched him play fetch with his off leash dog in a small clearing on the trail below. Rage inducing.

Earlier this week we closed off another shortcut on a different trail and 24 hours later someone has already been trying to undo it. The shortcut is 20 ft away from the existing trail and saves literally 10 seconds of walking. It doesn't even make sense.


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Most switchback-cutting is probably hikers. When you move slowly, every foot of distance counts. When you move quickly (e.g. downhill on a bike), more distance = more fun. (Assuming it isn't an extra boring trail). And uphill... well, steep = still faster for hiking (to a point), but not so much for biking.

You see the same thing on old roads. The old walking route is steepest, then there's some sorta windy but still steep horse/wagon route, then the modern car route taking one super long switchback up the hill. (Which also often takes a giant excavator to build. But hikers/small cars may still take the old route.)

The whiners are in all groups.


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## celswick (Mar 5, 2020)

Lately I’ve seen a guy at my local trails with a broom sweeping the loose sand off the corners. 

I always say hi and thank him for his work in making the trail awesome. 

While my work and family life prevents me from contributing very much to trail maintenance, I contribute by clearing out all the spider webs every morning with my face. 

Every little bit helps. 


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## rjfr (Aug 19, 2020)

I can't imagine being rude to someone who is working on trails. Without those awesome people, we wouldn't have maintained trails to ride. I'm grateful!


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## ojito (Jun 20, 2010)

JustMtnB44 said:


> Earlier this week we closed off another shortcut on a different trail and 24 hours later someone has already been trying to undo it. The shortcut is 20 ft away from the existing trail and saves literally 10 seconds of walking. It doesn't even make sense.


I have done this with hiker- and mountain-biker-created trails around my place. We have a great trail network where I live, but I am seeing more and more unsanctioned trail building by mtb'ers. I get that people might get bored after a while, but without training and going through the right channels either illegal trails end up not being sustainable, or they otherwise make us look like a rogue user group. Or both. Anyway, a biker-created cutoff appeared inside a wide descending corner, which instead cut straight down a steep hill and was prone to erosion. Dad after day, while walking my dog, I would put sticks, logs, big rocks, whatever I could find, across it, and every day they were gone, rolled down the hill. This just pisses me off, no matter what group is doing it, including mountain bikers. But as an avid hiker, I also can't stand switchback cutters.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ojito said:


> I have done this with hiker- and mountain-biker-created trails around my place. We have a great trail network where I live, but I am seeing more and more unsanctioned trail building by mtb'ers. I get that people might get bored after a while, but without training and going through the right channels either illegal trails end up not being sustainable, or they otherwise make us look like a rogue user group. Or both. Anyway, a biker-created cutoff appeared inside a wide descending corner, which instead cut straight down a steep hill and was prone to erosion. Dad after day, while walking my dog, I would put sticks, logs, big rocks, whatever I could find, across it, and every day they were gone, rolled down the hill. This just pisses me off, no matter what group is doing it, including mountain bikers. But as an avid hiker, I also can't stand switchback cutters.


I was dealing with something similar in my area. We have a huge acreage that has gone a few different directions when it comes to who is "allowed" to be there. Some of of the fire roads go back to when it was farmland up until the late 1960's, foot paths and bike trails were created by all sorts of people over the decades. I say this because technically no trail was built under official supervision, but the unspoken rules of the trail builders would apply, don't mess with other peoples trails.

One such trail is a very well built one, good erosion control, both rocky and rugged as well as smooth and flowing in different parts. I know the guy who built it, and I know his riding style and why he did it.

Some guys started cutting over a few of the berms to create a "faster" line, I am guessing to improve their strava scores. This new line ignored the design intent and created erosion. I would go do trail work and every time I put in major effort to put the berm back. I rolled giant rocks and embedded them into the berms to help solidify things. put the drainage back and essentially fixed the trail back to the designers original intent. But a few weeks would go by and effort was made to remove the berm, remove the rocks and ruin the erosion control.

Once I had kids my time for trail work diminished and i never actually met anyone who was destroying the trail work to gain a half second of time on their strava, but it really irritated me.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

kill 'em with kindness. These type of people seem to get the most worked up when you laugh in their face. Recording the incident for public shaming goes a long way too.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Train Wreck said:


> kill 'em with kind bud


Will that work?

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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

WHALENARD said:


> Will that work?


That's reserved for the crews safety meeting.

There's only one way you can ruin a trail, and that's by taking it away. Earth evolves.
Dig it!









First Seinfeld reference of the new forum update


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## julien AR (Jun 2, 2011)

If you feel like engaging with such jerks, ask what they mean by "RUINING" the trail: what trail, where, what feature, etc... 
They'll most likely complain about reroutes that avoid steep trail sections. They'll cry about surface changes that strip a trail from riding challenges. 

In most cases, it's not the trail that's ruined; it's the advanced rider's experience. Now you may agree with them to some extend: you may also prefer riding challenging trails. But you are likely not given the resources to compensate for the loss of challenges. You may explain what's in the balance: keeping the trails open by making them sustainable or letting them degrade until they get closed permanently because everyone who's not a hardcore rider complains about it. It's not your fault if there is nothing in the plans to make up for the loss of riding challenges. All you do is keeping a riding venue open. 

So is it worth engaging with jerks? What are you going to do with their feedback? As a volunteer, do you have the power to improve their riding experience? Likely not. So my advice: let them glide away and focus on the large majority of riders who appreciate your work.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

julien AR said:


> If you feel like engaging with such jerks, ask what they mean by "RUINING" the trail: what trail, where, what feature, etc...
> They'll most likely complain about reroutes that avoid steep trail sections. They'll cry about surface changes that strip a trail from riding challenges.
> 
> In most cases, it's not the trail that's ruined; it's the advanced rider's experience. Now you may agree with them to some extend: you may also prefer riding challenging trails. But you are likely not given the resources to compensate for the loss of challenges. You may explain what's in the balance: keeping the trails open by making them sustainable or letting them degrade until they get closed permanently because everyone who's not a hardcore rider complains about it. It's not your fault if there is nothing in the plans to make up for the loss of riding challenges. All you do is keeping a riding venue open.
> ...


The thing here is an advanced rider would not like it if a beginner sanitized a trail to make it easier for them, the same applies to taking a beginner trail and making it harder to suit their own needs.

"Ruining" can mean different things to different people.

I take issue with anyone changing a trail from it's design to be easier or harder.... don't mess with the trail builders intentions.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WHALENARD said:


> Will that work?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


It would work on me. 

I'm gonna buck the 'be nice' trend and say I have no problem, and even actually ENJOY letting off a little aggression on a target of opportunity here and there. Busting out a ****-eating grin and a 'you're more than welcome to **** off to somewhere else' brings me much joy. And if they don't like it...well, they already know exactly what to do. 

That's rare though. Most people aren't outright dicks, but a lot of people love to tell me what I "should" do. I give them the same grin and hand them a shovel and invite them to show me how it's done. The majority pipe right down, but I've also had a few take me up on it and make themselves useful, which is even better.


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> Been in the non-profit volunteering gig at all levels for 20 years. The jerks are always present. They never go away. I'm always amazed how cruel they are sometimes to volunteers. They are mean to people using their free time to help trails. It truly is mind blowing. I've been doing it so long I just tune it out. Like you said, the vast majority are really happy with what we do. Sorry you dealt with that!


As other posters have pointed out, dealing with the vocal few can be discouraging. But staying calm, avoiding anger and bitterness is essential. It is easy to develop a martyr complex doing advocacy, but it only hurts drawing others to your cause & helping you. Taking the high road and avoiding name calling is essential. I've been doing this for 25 years so I know just how hard that can be!

The best skill I have developed over time is that I have been able to get people to stop and talk. When approached by a hater it's hard not to get defensive and have things escalate. But it works wonders to use reflective statements and ask probing questions. Eg. "I'm sorry that you are disappointed in the work that has been done recently. What aspects of the work are bothering you?" Be prepared for the often repeated "you're sanitizing the trail, making the trail too easy." Ask them for specifics, "Is there one specific area as an example that bothers you the most?" At that point you can respond to why that work was done. They still might not like the answer but it helps when they are provided the context. For example, "I hear you on liking the challenge of clearing that rooty climb and I hated we had to remove some of them, but when trail creep causes the tread to 8' wide instead of 18'-24" the land manager requires us to restore the trail corridor to standard single track." This will not win over the 5% of people who think the entire world should provide them everything they want, as Ryno stated "Jerks are always present." However, this type of dialogue will help you understand more of what your trail users cherish and give you food for thought on how to accommodate the widely varying needs from beginner to advanced riders which is not an easy task.

I know many builder/maintainers who despise alternate lines. However, if you have limited trail mileage that precludes you from having a beginner rated trail and an advanced trails, I have found a well thought out alternate line solution to work.

If someone is going to do "ride by" management like in the OP post situation their input deserves the same amount of consideration as the time they spent "sharing" it.

In my experience I have found, "You can please some of the people some of the time, you can please most of the people most of the time. You can never please all of the people all of the time." If you ignore this truth you will be the one who is disillusioned and frustrated. Understand who it is important to please (eg. Landmanager) and who it is not, but be kind and respectful to all.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone." 
― Bill Cosby

Keep up the great work and know the trail you are providing is having a very positive impact on the community!


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## EKram (Oct 30, 2020)

Yup. Those with "negative comments" population is growing. Their deal IMO, is to remain anonymous (sign of a coward). They are everywhere. It's ok for them to say stuff but if the same statement was made to them they would be mad.
Keep up *the good work knowing* that the negative commenters are out there. Maybe some day you will see this cat with a flat and you can say something like, "too bad your ride is goofed up" and pedal away if you feel the need of passive retribution.


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