# Anything better than Norco Charger 20 for similar price 700$??



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I like the Norco Charger 20" price (700$) for my 5yr old as it actually has a decent air fork up front with lockout, 22lbs, hydraulic brakes, 11-32T cassette, normal shifters (not crap revo-twist). My kid is doing some decent up/downhill stuff to definitely need the fork. I'm just wondering if there is anything else out there, its hard to tell in this size. 

Spawn is more than I want to spend at over 1k. So is lil shredder
Prevelo Zulu Three is similar to Spawn but still at 900$ and heavier I'm not seeing a huge difference over the charger.
Kona Shred is priced NICE, but I don't want mech-Disc brakes for young hands on downhill and the 14-28t cassette sucks.
Specialized Riprock is super heavy with crappy shifters and a boat-anchor fork. Killer price tho.
Orbea - sweet bike but no air fork
Rocky Mountain Vertex - lesser components, no gears, higher price somehow
Commencal MetaHT looks awesome...but I think the fork is a spring fork. Not cool for 700$
Early Rider Belter 20 - [email protected] 850$. Only 3 speeds and no hydraulic disc brakes.

Anything I'm completely missing? Its hard to figure out all the options at 20". Does Norco suck (I'm not super familiar with them). I can get Norco from LBS.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Norco does not suck. Our son has the Norco Fluid 4.2 (the 24" dual suspension). We have been pleasantly surprised by the build quality and attention to detail. 

If the bike meets all your wish list I would go for it - particularly if you can get it through your LBS as close at hand follow up service is great to have.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

silvascape said:


> Norco does not suck. Our son has the Norco Fluid 4.2 (the 24" dual suspension). We have been pleasantly surprised by the build quality and attention to detail.
> 
> If the bike meets all your wish list I would go for it - particularly if you can get it through your LBS as close at hand follow up service is great to have.


Cool, thanks man! That 4.2 is nice. Kids are so spoiled these days lol. How do you like the rear suspension design/performance? I'm not in market for FS yet I think but will someday (I need second job to buy these nice bikes).


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

Unless you buy a Lil Shredder for FS on Trail-craft then something is going to suck...



svinyard said:


> I'm not in market for FS yet


I'd not really look at the shop spec so much as price and upgrade capability.
I know the Orbea has a cassette and disk mounts for example... so I'd try and hit the lowest price that doesn't impede upgrading components. (disc compatible frame, right geometry and if possible a standard BCD on the cranks) ... if that comes with crap mechanical disk brakes then just chuck em/ebay and replace but at least you know the hubs and frame will take a proper set. 
We do maintenance together so I stick to shimano brakes as I don't trust him with DOT fluid...

For the Norco 4.2 (obviously may vary for the 20)

The 4.2 rear suspension works really well. It comes in the light tune anyway but the way the frame linkages work my 50lb kid gets full travel and it's amazing riding behind him on the smaller bumps seeing how much it's soaking up.

In terms of a pedal-able bike there are a few changes ... but perhaps expected at that price point...

The fork sucks ... or at least its heavy so we changed the fork for a SID, this also allows us to up the travel later. I had problems finding a straight 1 1/8" and QR so we ended up putting in a tapered and using an external cup lower headset (We're in the UK and used Hope but Canecreek do the same)

His new SID in shop/medium tune required the tokens removing to get enough pressure to return the fork so it wasn't as progressive as it could be... it's off for a tune this week along with the rear shock getting a service (bought the bike used as you can't buy them in the UK anymore and no idea of the service history of the shock).

The wheels are REALLY REALLY heavy .... (we have the 2015) but hard to pinpoint where without taking them apart ... the tires are heavy and the hubs are the basic SRAM 300 series ... spokes seem basic and rims are v-brakes... nothing in the wheels seemed worth saving but he has a set of wheels anyway... with tyres the alternate set with cassette weighs less than the front stock wheel from the Norco...

My kid is only 51" so we had to swap out the cranks (but had a spare set anyway) though it comes with decent cranks... just too long. They might get put back later though we switched to an external BB as well now.

The brakes and shifter/mech work fine but as we had spare XT I swapped them...


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Steve-XtC said:


> Unless you buy a Lil Shredder for FS on Trail-craft then something is going to suck...
> 
> My kid is only 51" so we had to swap out the cranks (but had a spare set anyway) though it comes with decent cranks... just too long. They might get put back later though we switched to an external BB as well now.
> 
> The brakes and shifter/mech work fine but as we had spare XT I swapped them...


My kid is about the exact same size, does that 24in bike seem huge on him or is it working pretty well for now?


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

Not my photo's these were taken for MBR mag... but they posted on FB and I copied them...



svinyard said:


> My kid is about the exact same size, does that 24in bike seem huge on him or is it working pretty well for now?


Here it is seat dropped which should show the room he has...
When you see the rear shot it almost looks small ....

By comparison his XC bike (about to start the handicap race at the back)








In my books the sizing looks pretty sweet ... We measure in cm... and in the photo's he should be 130cm.... a month later the sod is 133cm ....so he grew over an inch...


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Wow that fit looks good! I'll have to switch gears here I think and check out 24". I think he can last out this season anyways with his current bike so he'll have a little more room to grow.

You bought the Fluid 4 but didn't like the front fork suspension. Which fork is it? The current one used on the 2017 Fluid 4.2 is a Rockshox 30 Silver 100mm. Is that the one that didn't work for you? We have so much downhill here that if I'm dropping a grand plus, I'd like to get a decent front fork.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

We have the 2017 version of the Norco Fluid 4.2. I dont know if it has a different fork to the earlier version Steve-XtC has but it works well - once tuned our son gets full travel. He also gets great performance out of the rear shock - full travel and adjustable rebound. Not sure weight wise in terms of how heavy the forks and wheels are, I am sure they could be lighter but for the price point we are pretty happy.
Here is a photo of him racing Gravity Enduro on his Norco. 








And here is one earlier in the year at Thredbo on the Flow track when he was a bit shorter.








The only things we have changed on the bike are the cranks - sized down to a 140mm crank and as that meant a bigger front chain ring went to a larger range cassette on the back. Also changed out the bars from the stock black bars to orange ones - mostly because thats what Dad does whenever he gets a new bike - cheap upgrade that makes the bike unique. The pedals that the bike came with were actually quite good but the pins wore down after six months or so so they have been changed out now too. Oh and the dropper post - its in the cupboard, he isnt heavy enough to operate it himself and would not ride it fully extended yet anyway.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

silvascape said:


> We have the 2017 version of the Norco Fluid 4.2. I dont know if it has a different fork to the earlier version Steve-XtC has but it works well - once tuned our son gets full travel. He also gets great performance out of the rear shock - full travel and adjustable rebound. Not sure weight wise in terms of how heavy the forks and wheels are, I am sure they could be lighter but for the price point we are pretty happy.


ha, those pics are awesome. How big was he when he started riding the 24"? Mine is nearly 6 and 49" tall, 20" inseam and 50lbs. He seems too small for a 24" but I figured I'd check. Sounds like Steve above made the jump smoothly.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

The first thing to point out is that the UK has a single Norco importer that is also a bike shop chain. As such UK specs are what the chain wants at a price point and may differ.
The fork worked OK ... bear in mind though it was a used bike (they stopped importing the 24 and now the last ever U.K. 26 went they are not importing more 26's) and the bike was previously used for DH only and not serviced to the level I'd do. As such I don't know the history of the fork but it is heavy. 
We also ride what might be considered longer distances ..(or so I'm told). usually 10-20 miles but often 30 and at semi kids race speeds as Jnr is quite an accomplished XC Jnr... so weight is an issue. He's not racing XC on this bike but we do try and cycle up everything and not stop. Last Sunday we'd cycled 10-15 miles and met up with a race buddy of his by accident ... they then did another 22 miles and 1200' of climbing according to the other kids Dad who was keeeping tabs. 

Point being I might be a little weight obsessed so if the bike isn't doing longer distances weight is less important. 

The Norco wasn't first choice as I was trying to get a Transition Ripcord frame only but this proved impossible without importing from the US adding tax, duty etc. and worked out more than the complete bike.... If I was that side of the big pond I'd have gone for the transition to be honest. Because of the riding we do the usual DH focussed sleds are out ... no way would he pedal the Kona or Commencal the distances or up what we ride. 

From my own sleifish personal perspective ... not his necessarily the weight upgrades are worth it simply because Dad/Son cycling is our bonding and where we live that means the sort of stuff we do... 90% of the time its technical red and what are I suppose long distances for 7yr olds. In 2 weeks we are off on a uplift weekend ... it's. 2-3 hour drive each way but if we lived there we would be probably be doing different riding ... and a more DH focus.and a different bike.. but since he decided to get into racing , XC was the only real option... it turns out he's pretty good but the whole point for me is the Dad/Son rides ... and races are just a distraction. We still end up with 200 miles drives round trip for the XC  

With that in mind I bought the Norco expecting to change fork and 26" XC forks are heavily discounted .. we paid 50% of RRP but you could even get cheaper.... but I'd more or less already sourced these for the Transition ... overall I'm very happy ... it's a fine bike at the price point 

The wheels we have though are really really heavy. Since we have the wheels from his XC we just use those... and as they are built with CXray that happened to be on sale when I built his wheels are doubtless much stronger than the Norco wheelset to boot. I'm tempted to put them on for he uplift weekend as I don't want to risk his race wheels on the downhill courses.... 

@svinyard ... he initially made the transition to 24 on his XC bike... when he did the saddle was slammed 

@silvascape ... which dropper have you got in the drawer? I spent a lot of time being cheeky and asking "can my kid try and depress your dropper?" ... he is nowhere even close to my Reverb ... even if I let it down to about 150psi where it only marginally returns ... but the Thompson he can mostly get down (80%) especially after it's been used a bit. He has to bounce on it a bit... or,perhaps he just got into the habit when it was new... and I scored a new 125mm half price or would have got a 100mm.... but the extra inch isn't too bad... higher than ideal but he can still get his bum on to take it down the extra inch.


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## silvascape (Sep 11, 2014)

Steve - XtC: Our sons Norco came with a dropper post! Norco describe it as "JD TransX dropper post w/remote lever, 30.9mm". We have taken it off for now as he is not quite tall enough to use it to its full extent anyway. He can work it but its an effort. You have me interested to have a look at the weight of the wheels his bike came with now - sounds like the UK spec may be a bit different to the Australian spec which I think is the same as the US spec.


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## SactoGeoff (Aug 11, 2017)

Are you in the USA? If not, you really should take a good look at Canyon. Their 20inch offering is very nice. Aside from that, the Cleary 20 inch offering is nice for the money. Commencial Meta is on Sale for 699 right now. I would call them about that fork. I'm not 100% sure it's coil spring. Could be an air fork. There's always the Scott Scale offerings.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

silvascape said:


> Steve - XtC: Our sons Norco came with a dropper post! Norco describe it as "JD TransX dropper post w/remote lever, 30.9mm". We have taken it off for now as he is not quite tall enough to use it to its full extent anyway. He can work it but its an effort. You have me interested to have a look at the weight of the wheels his bike came with now - sounds like the UK spec may be a bit different to the Australian spec which I think is the same as the US spec.


Yep the downside of the importer also being a bike shop chain.... though the 2017 now I remember did come with a dropper.... so perhaps not that different (perhaps).

The forks are the Rockshox 30 silver solo air ... the main issue really just being weight.
(I personally don't think we ride that far but other members seem to think 20 miles single track isn't "normal" for a yr old.... for us it's just normal .... we just ride whilst he's still having fun... then usually a bit extra to get back to the car)

My honest opinion is that it's at least 50% down to a lighter bike but perhaps more as they then go further and climb more and get fitter by doing so... and I find the argument that "kids don't ride that far so don't need lighter bikes" completely chicken and egg... along with "they don't use gears" ... "they won't climb hills" ...


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I got a chance to talk to the guys at Flow Bikes. They are making a FS 20" that also converts up to a 24" without swapping out the parts (fork etc). Its 100mm of travel on a RST F1RST shock up front, not sure on the back. They expect it to be approx 25lbs. All great components that support adult style components apparently. Frame and Cranks will be built by Flow I think but the rest is off the shelf.

Now this is definitely heavier than I wanted for my kids 20" but the appeal of getting a FS that he could stick with for 6yrs is really appealing. We live on the mountain and there is just so much crazy downhill that at 24" I would want a FS for him for sure. I know its overkill for him now tho. Price could be under 1500$.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

The F1rst is a really good XC fork... (certainly at the price) but it needed a bit of a service after being used (abused) for DH.... it's actually built as a kids XC and perhaps trail ... and in that it works out of the box unlike an expensive SID! The SID on the FS (I literally just refitted after sending for tuning) is like a Pike or even Lyric....220lb adults complain of flex but 50lb kids ...

Now personally I'm a bit sceptical of the whole going wheel size thing.... (at least for trail)

The chain stays need to be SUPER long to go from a 20-24 ... 
The "other bike" is a cannondale and also has long chain stays 
This was initially an all rounder ... shorter stem etc. but as he progressed it became more and more obvious it's more suited to XC... the chain stays are the same length (exactly) as my 27.5 trail bike.... (which granted has short chain stays but its a 24 !!! ) and not much shorter than my full on 27.5 XC...

I won't say its impossible to manual but its damned hard.... you have to get everything spot on... compared to my trail bike where its a casual thing... even at his present height his bum doesn't reach the centre of the back wheel so that means its his momentum has to get the bike up (unless he can use a root or jump)...

TBH I think it slightly compromised his learning... he just gave up on manuals and to be honest its hard work for me riding his bike... and I believe its mainly the long chain stays...

I can't see how the 20 capable of a 24 can possibly have a good geometry. (but that's just me) .. something has to give....

I now sizing is a bit personal but i don't think he can be far off a 24 at 49"... thats only 2" shorter than my kid and look how much room he has to move about... It might not be ideal .. but (again just IMHO) you getting the same number of years (I think 6 is a bit optimistic) .. and my kid has grown over an inch in the 2 months (measured him Jun 14) since we got the Norco...

Anyway, I'd at least want to see/try the Flow... but also see if he can get onto a 24???
The ideal if I could have got it is the Transition - I'd have bought frame only (but not possible in the UK any more) .. its slightly smaller sized...

All that said... it really depends how much DH vs pedalling... we do a lot of pedalling so that disqualified bikes like the Kona Stinky and Commencal as they are just irretrievably heavy DH only...

His Norco is turning into a great training bike ... I took 2 gears off him Sunday.(just limit screws for 1st and 2nd).. and he pedalled the extra 2kg over his XC over 30 miles of technical single track with something like 2000' of climbing...

When he gets on his XC I'm sure it will feel a lot lighter 

Price could be under 1500$.



> https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Ripcord.cfm


$1000 for a frame and shock .. You can get a SID for $300-350 and wheels for $330
Trailcraft Cycles

One more thing to consider... I hadn't considered until yesterday ... is the small shock on the Norco is incredibly difficult to get spares/replaced. It was at the tuners yesterday and he noticed some slight scratching to the shaft.. but then said "but it will take 3 months to get a spare from SRAM" and it's holding pressure so I suggest you leave it and keep an eye on it bearing in mind the lead-time
....

All in all a bit scary.... so I went and checked online and it's damned near impossible to replace. Even when available (a couple were available new) its the wrong compression tune.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Thanks Steve, this a bunch of good info!

Flow has done the convertible thing for a little while (16/20) and apparently its well reviewed but I haven't seen it in person. Link to their new designs. I'm terrible about guaging how good or not it is.

https://www.flowkidsbikes.com/full-suspension

I'm on the fence regarding the 24in. I just need to get him to go try a couple and see what they look like. That Transition Ripcord certainly has a smaller frame that I like a lot but their off the shelf bike is heavy @ nearly 30lbs (maybe this is normal for FS 24")?. I'm far from a bike builder too and worry that I wouldn't have the requisite knowledge to build up off of their frame (is it pretty easy?). My guess is the costs would balloon quickly too.

My 49" kid has an inseam of about 20 I think. Most of the 24in bike SOH is a bit more than that. But still I'm planning on riding out this season and purchasing for next season, so who knows how much he grows in 8months!


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## SactoGeoff (Aug 11, 2017)

Steve-XtC said:


> The F1rst is a really good XC fork... (certainly at the price) but it needed a bit of a service after being used (abused) for DH.... it's actually built as a kids XC and perhaps trail ... and in that it works out of the box unlike an expensive SID! The SID on the FS (I literally just refitted after sending for tuning) is like a Pike or even Lyric....220lb adults complain of flex but 50lb kids ...
> 
> Now personally I'm a bit sceptical of the whole going wheel size thing.... (at least for trail)
> 
> ...


That transition bike looks awesome! And that video they posted is so spot on. With regards to why we're all here on this forum looking for real bikes for our kids. Like the original poster, I'm looking in the $7-800 range (I have twins so I need two). But I may have to increase my price point if I can get them onto something like that. A solid all-rounder bike.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

> I'm on the fence regarding the 24in. I just need to get him to go try a couple and see what they look like. That Transition Ripcord certainly has a smaller frame that I like a lot but their off the shelf bike is heavy @ nearly 30lbs (maybe this is normal for FS 24")?. I'm far from a bike builder too and worry that I wouldn't have the requisite knowledge to build up off of their frame (is it pretty easy?). My guess is the costs would balloon quickly too.


Until you actually try him it will always be a bit unknown... and the next 3 mo of growth likewise.

There seems to be a natural law that says the minute you buy something expensive kids shoot up...

With that in mind i see the appeal of the growing bike... but I'm still sceptical about the geometry compromises. It's also a bit reversed... in that when its in 20 mode the chain stays are super long and hard to manual but then they are bigger and heavier (and can do it anyway) it gets easier.

This is the only regret really with the XC bike we have...we used it for everything (including him racing XC) but it's really compromised his skills for trails and downhill

I'm not a professional coach but still... I feel the XC bike has made it hard to the point he didn't try until he got the FS. He overheard me speaking to someone on his chain stays and took it to heart that he can't manual the Cannondale... (I think it's possible for him but its really really hard and needs to be spot on perfect....and the problem I think is it's all about feeling.. you can describe it and what to do but the real lightbulb moment is about how it feels)

I'm not really fussed if he can manual for show but it affects trail riding as he struggles to keep his front wheel up in the air... for anything on a XC he's fine as he squashes it (which is faster) and he's actually better than me at that... indeed he squashes stuff on his 24" wheels I'd not try on my 27.5... but its an accident waiting to happen as he just needs the front wheel to stick on a hidden root or such and its OTB at speed.

Now the bigger question ....
Is building a bike technically difficult? (or you ask is it pretty easy)

I don't want to mislead you .. and I'm probably a bit above average in that sort of thing generally but not gifted...  .. It's also hugely rewarding and afterwards you can fix/change anything....

First things ... it's mostly easy... it's mostly simply bolting stuff on.... if you own a toque wrench it can be slightly easier in terms of how tight but mostly it's not that hard... for example when you screw the brakes levers on they need to be tight enough to not rotate on the bar and slack enough to rotate in a crash .. and if the bars are carbon "a bit more than needed to stop rotating" (In practice that means hand tight with an allen wrench in the long position with less leverage....) I own a torque wrench now but just refitted bars and forks last night on carbon bars and didn't actually bother with it... whereas my seat post bolt I did as it needs to be pretty spot on for the Reverb to actually work...(though that can be done by trial and error)

There is SOME stuff that isn't "bolting on" and that's in my experience left to the pro's..
Mainly because it requires specialist tools... the main things are headset cups .. where you ideally want a proper headset press and if you have a press fit BB (which the transition doesn't) 
Same goes for star nuts .. though I usually bodge it using a bolt with a washer .... cutting steerers on forks (though if you cut 1/4" - 1/8" bigger and make sure your cutting pretty straight you can file it if its not perfectly straight) .. fitting crown races (where the fork meets the headset) is another tricky bit but last time I just found that a used plastic glue/sealant gun tube (like you use for sealing round the bath) with the end cut off is perfect for a tapered steerer.... that was my impatience though...

So all that said.... for my kids new forks I paid the LBS to fit the headset and fork.... so they put in the star nut, cut the fork and fitted the headset and this cost me £15... (<$20) - Once the star nut is in its much easier to knock it in another 1/2" ... so I had the forks done 1/2" bigger than I needed and since cut them down after trying and removed the extra spacers...(This was also a bit complex as I fitted a tapered fork into a straight steerer - the guys on here helped me sort out the right headset to do that but there was an unknown as to if the tapered bit would be short enough... it was simpler for me to make this the professionals problem so they got in the headset and tested it would actually fit... I got an expansive headset for resins I'll discuss at the end and labour was a lot less than parts)

All that stuff actually happens on a bare frame ... so ideally I'd say get the forks and headset fitted .. (mainly because its damned expensive if you screw up and because they have the correct tools)

*The most complicated bit is actually buying the right stuff! *I found it really intimidating knowing the right headset size etc. and earlier just which exact component.. 
Forums are a great way to do this and POAH and others (on here) helped me a lot... he also rebuilt a whole transition because when he bought you couldn't buy frame only... so he bought the bike and stripped it.

If you break this down then it's all easy... 
To illustrate ... if you take something off like a bottom bracket your just removing the cranks then the bottom bracket by undoing some screw threads ... then reversing the operation.... you know it fits as you just took them off.... there are 1-2 gotchas such as the left hand pedal and bb thread are left hand.... (the bottom bracket usually has this printed on) ... but you need to get it right as forcing it the wrong way will damage the threads....

What's potentially more difficult is bolding from scratch if you haven't changed a BB before. First you need to make sure you bought the correct one... (widths and different thread types but for the Transition I'm fairly confident you would just need the Shimano Deore 68-73 - the newer XT one will also fit but they changed the external size of the tool so I stick with the Deore ) .. if you certain then it's really just screw the thing in... I usually stick some anti-seize grease (this is a hotly debated topic) to make it simple and easy to get them back off...

90% of this can be done with a 3,4,5 allen set... then you need a chainwhip to remove the cassette (though not to fit it it just screws on) plus a cassette tool (a socket with splines) to screw it on... and a BB tool (basically a big socket)

As an example I mainly use one of these....
Lezyne External BB & Cassette Lockring Tool | Chain Reaction Cycles










My adjustable wrench fits it ... and it takes up less room in my toolbox (which gets shuttled to/from car)

If you fitted a square tape BB (due to your choice of cranks) then you need a cranks extractor (these are like $5 or less) .. and you'll want a chain breaker (but you'd want one anyway)

The absolute BEST bit of kit I'd recommend is a good cycle work stand... you don't NEED one but they make everything much easier and get used all the time once you have one. I bought a cheap one ($40) and its been pretty good but I use this all the time... even just cleaning the bikes or adjusting gears etc. pretty much everything is easier ... but my XMAS list will be a better quality one ....

I'd also invest in some strong magnets .... depending here you do this you can save HOURS when you drop that screw.... when it's sunny I end up doing stuff on the lawn... and dropping a 2mm grub screw is a nightmare... after a bit of practice I can strip a bike completely and rebuild in a hour... but I've previously spent 1-2 hours just looking for a screw I dropped! (Of course if its alloy or Ti the magnet won't help bit steel screws it can be a useful tool)

*I said I'd discuss expensive headsets etc.* 
As I said earlier there are a couple of tricky things like fitting the crown race, star nut AND any internal headset cups... these are pressed in and you should use a special tool.... you'll see YouTube kids with a hammer but seriously you're hammering it into a $1000 frame.... and its a <$15 job for a pro with the right tool

If this is done properly with a good quality headset you'll only ever need to do it once! 
After that if/when you need to change the bearings it's simple and no special tools needed just the allen wrenches for your star nut and stem... whip it off... clean and grease and stick the new ones in which are sealed races.

Just checking the Transition Website gives all the spec for the frame (this means the BB is just the Shimano standard non-boost 68-73 .. the fork is a straight steerer and pretty much "normal" .... giving you lots of options... and you need a rear wheel with a 10mmx135mm axle (or one that the axle can be swapped about) and you'll want a 31.6 seat post... (lots of choice)

Fork Axle To Crown:	475mm
Fork Offset:	39mm
Rear Shock Size:	165mm x 38mm
Shock Hardware:	21.8mm x 8mm
Headset (Top):	44mm Zero Stack
Headset (Bottom):	44mm Zero Stack
BB Shell:	73mm BSA Threaded
Rear Brake Mount:	160mm IS Mount
Rear Axle:	10 x 135mm
Front Derailleur Style:	None
ISCG Tabs:	ISCG 05 (2.5mm Offset)
Seatpost Diameter:	31.6mm
Seat Clamp:	34.9mm
Max Chainring Size:	32t Single
Max Tire Size:	24 x 2.5

So overall it's simple and well worth learning and the tools you'll need are just part of standard maintenance.
.... there are a couple of things that I'd let the pro's do... but these are not expensive as they don't take long ..(at least on the bare frame) they just need social tools to do properly

Finally: What does it cost ? 
I'd say that depends.. obviously on your spec but also on time. 
Wheels and forks are the two big items.... TBH decent wheels will resell AFTER they move to a bigger bike.... forks should but the length you cut the steerer might make it take longer (but also if they move from the transition to a 26 you can use the same forks..) Currently at least in the UK new 26" SIDS are as cheap as used ones on eBay! 
I expect as availability of SID/REBA in 26 disappears then resale will just increase in the lifetime of your kids bike!

I've always cut my own (kids) cranks to length and then drilled and re-tapped ...but if doing a new build and I was in the US I'd buy the Trailcraft (HT/) ones... these are too new to know resale but I'd expect the resale to hold up pretty good....

Or you can sell the entire bike.... Personally I'd pay as much or more for a well specced frame and build used than the entire bike new! (I paid about 75% of the retail on the Norco with the standard spec.... and it has been hammered as a downhill only bike as the kid's father owns a private DH track)

*The other parts are transferable or would need replacing anyway.... *
My brakes were Shimano so I had shimano brake oil and bleed kit and Jnr gets involved in maintenance.... I also have spare brake pads/hoses etc I buy whenever there is a big discount... so this very strongly influenced my choices.... in the same way I buy spare chains when discounted so all in all it works out easier and probably significantly cheaper for Jnr's bike to be compatible.... M

So bearing in mind my Shimano preference for practical reasons of spares.... 
I'd fit SLX/XT but a SRAM chain (if you do 10speed and cassette expander).... and you have multiple options on the mounting...

In favour of 11 speed I'd go SLX M7000 for the shifter/rear mech because it's the easiest to push (for smaller hands)... HOWEVER .... Jnr has used the 10 speed XT no problem except when the cables get damaged/work....

POAH previously recommended good quality cabling an I'd half ignored and forgotten this and was ready to chuck the lot in the bin at one point....Jnr's 1st gear was incredibly hard even for me.... and I had a 40T expander on (but also on my bike) ... I tried EVERYTHING except cables... (swapped shifters ... swapped rear mechs etc.) then I finally swapped the cable outers for some Jagwire coated ones and stuck in a new inner cable... and the problem disappeared! Prior to this he had a split external cable that was actually the rubbish on the Cannondale when delivered in 3x8 .. the full length good quality outer and teflon inner are barely more expensive in bulk than one off cables and such... (the new XT supplied inners are SILTEC which seems very good)

YMMV ... living in the UK mud/damp is part of our everyday life  
I now buy the Jagwire by the meter and buy Teflon coated inners in 5's and 10's (some people say it makes no difference but I honestly believe it makes a huge one for kids)

(On his dropper loads of people said he wouldn't be able to press the crappy Thompson cable release... I just stuck in a Jagwire coated outer and teflon inner and he has no problem AT ALL.... I can use my pinky....last Sunday another Dad tried it we were seeing if his kid could depress the dropper but he was fascinated by the trigger and how smooth and easy it was ) I didn't even TRY the supplied Thompson cabling.... so I can't compare!

anyway ... in my books worth the extra $10 on a build even if just because you can choose colours!

Hope that covers your questions... but ultimately You need to get him on some bikes to try out....


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## Crashtestdummee (Sep 14, 2015)

Did you look at Prevelo Zulu three.

https://prevelobikes.com/collections/bikes/products/zulu-three


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

Crashtestdummee said:


> Did you look at Prevelo Zulu three.
> 
> https://prevelobikes.com/collections/bikes/products/zulu-three


That's a really nice 20er .... but if it was me that would be something to buy when they could just get on a 20er rather than when they are almost ready for a 24 ....

That said if the OP was to get a 24 frame then (pretty much) everything but wheels and forks are transferable later as they hit the optimum changeover rather than trying to go 24 earlier.... and the frame/forks (and possibly wheels) would probably sell fairly easily.... for someone looking to build ..(Commencal do a HT frame for about $100 + shipping and Transition the frame only for the Ripcord)

Knowing what I do now and 20/20 hindsight that would have been a fantastic 20er for my kid 2 years ago .... though at that point I had no idea he would become bike mad... (not that I'm not pleased about it but he'd showed zero interest before)


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Steve-XtC said:


> Until you actually try him it will always be a bit unknown... and the next 3 mo of growth likewise.
> 
> There seems to be a natural law that says the minute you buy something expensive kids shoot up...
> 
> ...


Dude, you should be awarded for longest MTBR posts! Impressive!

I'm of the opinion to buy the bike that fits NOW, and not to grow into something. If you can't stomach paying $1050 for a Spawn or $750 for a Norco, then buy a used Hotrock for $200 and mod it by taking some weight off. Kids are on 20" bike size for about 18 months max. These 20" bikes are getting expensive, but if you have kids to hand the bikes down to then it softens the blow a bit. The problem with going straight to 24" is standover, reach, and crank length. Even 140mm is too long on a 24" if you are trying to put your kid on when he/she should be on a 20". 24" is just too long and you are doing your kid a disservice by trying to save a few bills. I can't even imagine my kids trying to do fun kid things like pull a wheelie on a 24" bike when they should be on a 20"!


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Crashtestdummee said:


> Did you look at Prevelo Zulu three.
> 
> https://prevelobikes.com/collections/bikes/products/zulu-three


Nice looking bike, but seems a little heavy for the price. Listed as 23.4 lbs.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I ended up grabbing the last green 20" Spawn Yama Jama in the US lol. After digging in, there is just too much really really nice stuff on that bike. The Fork was the main reason, apparently it's exceptional and also a standard service. I like how the updated their geo too from the Savage 2. One of my other favorites are their big brood tires. Airing those down with that plush fork is going to make for one awesome ride. All of that for 21lbs was too good to pass up for the extra $. I do really like the Prevelo bikes but Zulu 3 was heavy. Newer company too and I think the Brood fork will be a big jump from Spinner stuff. Elena and Max at spawn have been great so far. Shipped from LA warehouse (duty free). We haven't gotten the bike in yet but I'm expecting good things.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Nice. AFAIK the fork is almost exactly the same as the one that came on my son's Rokkusuta and his is incredible. Sooo smooth. The fork on his Flow works well, but that Brood fork is on another level. I'm jealous of those Maxtion tires. Spawn told me they'll be available a la carte in the US soon and I'll probably end up buying a pair.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

RMCDan said:


> Nice. AFAIK the fork is almost exactly the same as the one that came on my son's Rokkusuta and his is incredible. Sooo smooth. The fork on his Flow works well, but that Brood fork is on another level. I'm jealous of those Maxtion tires. Spawn told me they'll be available a la carte in the US soon and I'll probably end up buying a pair.


That FS bike looks awesome man, do you have the 24 or 20? Dad props. We will probably graduate to that or something similar at 24in. Specs say the fork is only 80mm of travel where yours is 100mm. Looking forward to it being as smooth as you say, I haven't seen a lot about it but what I have seen is REALLY positive. Elena really liked how it was a normal fork to work on/service and that being one of the big reasons to move to Brood stuff.

Is there anything that is a no brainer for replacing right off the bat? The brakes are Tektro Aguila hydraulics, I'm guessing they will be fine but I didn't exactly see rave reviews on them...though that was mainly adults using them.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

We have the 20. He really rips for his age and lack of rear suspension was clearly holding him back. It's been a game changer. I can't help but feel mildly embarrassed about spending that much on a kids bike his riding justifies it and I am completely satisfied with what I got for the price. Resale in my market will be really good, so I look at it like I just put down a down payment on his 24". Except it's a down payment he can ride.

I'm pretty sure the travel is the only difference between the Rokkusuta and Yama Jama forks. Even then, the travel spec on the Rokkusuta fork is misleading. The stanchions are 100 mm tall, but there is some kind of bump stop in the lowers that only allows them to move 80 mm up the stanchions. At first I thought maybe it was some kind of defect so I emailed them about it. They gave me a somewhat evasive answer, saying they would talk to the manufacturer but alluding to there being a bump stop in there. It's kind of disingenuous, but the fork is still awesome so whatever.

I can't speak to the brakes since his came with Guides. Which, funnily, are from a bad batch and are already being replaced by my LBS under warranty. There is a defect in the piston that causes them to seize up in hot temperatures. I guess they've been ordering a LOT of warranty levers from SRAM this summer. Otherwise, no, I don't have any parts replacement plans. I swapped the SB8 tires for the MaxDaddys from his Flow (going to turn the Flow into a dirt jumper which the SB8s are perfect for). I was hoping there would be some low-hanging fruit to get the weight down a bit, but beside some carbon bars, a carbon seat post and maybe a different saddle I don't see much. Even those don't really seem worth it since they only save a few grams. A new wheelset or even just a XTR/XX-level cassette is not going to happen.

IMO, with the new lineup Spawn absolutely owns the high-end kids bike market right now, no question. We'll see what the next couple years bring, but if I needed a 24" FS right now I'd get a Rokkusuta 24 for sure. The price is damn close to the Fluid 4.2/Fuel Ex Jr/Ripcord, weight is the same or better, but they have 140 mm of F/R travel compared to 90-100 mm. No comparison. The owners of Flow seem like great people who make cool bikes and I hope them the best, but they are going to have a hard time competing with what Spawn is putting out. Same with Trailcraft. I can't see a single reason to pay a $600 premium for a Pineridge 24 over a Yama Jama 24.


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## thefuzzbl (Jul 5, 2006)

RMCDan said:


> I'm pretty sure the travel is the only difference between the Rokkusuta and Yama Jama forks. Even then, the travel spec on the Rokkusuta fork is misleading. The stanchions are 100 mm tall, but there is some kind of bump stop in the lowers that only allows them to move 80 mm up the stanchions. At first I thought maybe it was some kind of defect so I emailed them about it. They gave me a somewhat evasive answer, saying they would talk to the manufacturer but alluding to there being a bump stop in there. It's kind of disingenuous, but the fork is still awesome so whatever.
> 
> *I can't speak to the brakes since his came with Guides. Which, funnily, are from a bad batch and are already being replaced by my LBS under warranty. *There is a defect in the piston that causes them to seize up in hot temperatures. I guess they've been ordering a LOT of warranty levers from SRAM this summer. Otherwise, no, I don't have any parts replacement plans. I swapped the SB8 tires for the MaxDaddys from his Flow (going to turn the Flow into a dirt jumper which the SB8s are perfect for).* I was hoping there would be some low-hanging fruit to get the weight down a bit, but beside some carbon bars, a carbon seat post and maybe a different saddle I don't see much. * Even those don't really seem worth it since they only save a few grams. A new wheelset or even just a XTR/XX-level cassette is not going to happen.
> 
> *IMO, with the new lineup Spawn absolutely owns the high-end kids bike market right now, no question.* We'll see what the next couple years bring, but if I needed a 24" FS right now I'd get a Rokkusuta 24 for sure. The price is damn close to the Fluid 4.2/Fuel Ex Jr/Ripcord, weight is the same or better, but they have 140 mm of F/R travel compared to 90-100 mm. No comparison. The owners of Flow seem like great people who make cool bikes and I hope them the best, but they are going to have a hard time competing with what Spawn is putting out. Same with Trailcraft. *I can't see a single reason to pay a $600 premium for a Pineridge 24 over a Yama Jama 24.*


You ride mostly downhill and not uphill, right? I think Spawn does own the kids park/gravity segment, but they don't even come close to Trailcraft in terms of everyday, XC style riding bikes or bikes where your kid might want to actually ride UP hills. Our son is in program where they ride after school 3x a week around town and on the local trails (read:climbing) and Trailcraft owns the XC kids bike area, you can't even compare the two really since the style of bikes are so different.

We bought a Pineridge 24 with XT for $2000. Expensive, yeah probably to most but I got a bike which is perfectly DIALED out of the box. Full XT (no Sram Guide or Tektro brakes) 11 speed with sub-1300 gram Stans MK3 wheels. Total weight of just 21.3 pounds set up tubeless. 21.3 pounds! What I like about Trailcraft is the use of FULL Shimano parts, 11-42 cassettes, Schwalbe tires, and they are up front with the bike weights on their website. All other bike brands when we researched were super vague of flat out told us to weight it at the dealer. Score here for Trailcraft.

For us, we didn't consider the Spawn even as a contender because of the short 270mm seatpost, 26" fork on a 24" bike, beefy wheels and tires, and 11-36 cassette. All these are perfect for parks but less than ideal for climbing long distances and taking my son on a 10-15 mile ride with me. So you'd be looking at a few hundred to make it more XC worthy. That's why I we spent the money on the Trailcraft. We hit the bike park with it just fine 1-2 times a year but that's about all the resort riding we do. So it was more important for an all around bike he can ride in his program and with me on longer XC rides 2-3 days a week.

Rokkusuta is the same. The 24" for example is basically a 140mm downhill bike! I agree it would OWN the park/downhill, but I'd personally never buy it as an XC/trail bike with that much travel. Crap, it has 20mm more travel than my FS bike.

So I think you have to consider what your riding style is and go from there. Spawn builds really nice gravity/park bikes, you can tell with the "slanted back" saddles on all of their bikes in their marketing. That's what they are into and do well. Trailcraft builds really nice lightweight XC bikes. Light out of the box with "no place to take weight off" since it's been done by them via premium components. It was well worth the price to me to get a premium bike which is awesome out of the box not having to replace crappy brakes, making it lighter, etc. and we knew exactly what we were buying with real weights posted of the bike. My loose change!


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Fair points. However:

1.) Guides are not crappy brakes. Lots of big bike companies got stuck with SRAM's screw up and they're being fixed at no cost to me. I have no personal experience with Tektro hydros, but given the current state of trickle-down I'd be shocked if they were materially worse than Deores.

2.) In case it wasn't clear, I was referencing the base model Pineridge Pro (heavier Trailcraft wheelset, Deore components). Regardless, I like the YJ's geo better (70* HTA on the Trailcraft and no amount of money can change it) and dollars-to-donuts that Velvet fork is way better than the RST. It would be _very_ interesting to see how light you could get a YJ24 if you threw $500-900 at it.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I don't think it's right to compare the Spawn Roskutua (sp) to trail craft. You are right on the different riding styles but Spawn makes a sick downhill bike AND a sick All Mountain bike (yama jama). That TC bike is a specialized super tuned/nice spandex bike. I don't think it's a sweet do it all tho, especially with the YJ being half the cost literally. The pro guys and everyone else here all pedal up the mountain and then run it back down home. Nearly everything is FS regardless of how much uphill we ride. A light, all mountain bike is the ticket to do it all, master of none. I think the YJ at half the cost is the better option for All Mountain, RS for downhill and the Trail Craft for XC if that is your thing. They all fill a good spot. 

btw I wouldn't knock Spawn for bike weight publishing. Some of them are published, some not. They aren't hiding anything and I just pinged Elena at Spawn on FB chat and she got back to me with the weight real quick. No big deal.


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## Crashtestdummee (Sep 14, 2015)

If anyone is interested found this video review of the Prevelo.

Prevelo Zulu Three Review - The Bike Dads

I am impressed with equipment on this bike. The clutch is a nice feature.


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

thefuzzbl said:


> So I think you have to consider what your riding style is and go from there.


I think the main point is it all depends what you ride and plan to ride. 
We ended up with 2x24 bikes because we do bike parks a few times a year at one end and at the other the kid races XC. In-between and most of the time we are riding trails with as much climbing as descending.

The full suss is about 1.5lbs heavier than the XC bike or 6-7 lbs heavier depending on tires/wheels... but it's perfectly pedal able and he happily rides 20-30 miles on the trails. At this point though he has more fun on the FS ... even though if we timed him I'm confident he'd be faster overall on his XC bike.



> Trailcraft builds really nice lightweight XC bikes. Light out of the box with "no place to take weight off" since it's been done by them via premium components. It was well worth the price to me to get a premium bike which is awesome out of the box not having to replace crappy brakes, making it lighter, etc. and we knew exactly what we were buying with real weights posted of the bike. My loose change!


My opinion (and it's just opinion) is economically that you either do one or the other. 
Unless you buy a frame-only then either get something ready to ride OR just buy something you can replace the components. If it's the latter then it makes no sense going for slightly better than bottom of the range components...



> For us, we didn't consider the Spawn even as a contender because of the short 270mm seatpost, 26" fork on a 24" bike


The 24 inch with 26 forks are designed for the AC of that fork... 
Jnr is running a 100mm presently but I can switch the airshaft down to 80mm... it's an extra 15 minutes on top of a regular lowers service...if I was running 80mm it would be lower than his XC bike with 60mm just because the frame is designed around the fork.. if I put in 120mm it would be super slack (bike park) - we just did 3 days bike oak as his Birthday and he was using 100% of the travel... on his normal trails he'd probably only be using 85-90% ...

This isn't really much different to adult bikes.. I swapped my 130mm Revelation for a 130mm Pike but that actually lowered the front slightly... switching the airshaft for a 140mm has put it back where it was ..


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## QueenMAUW (Sep 3, 2010)

svinyard said:


> [*]Rocky Mountain Vertex - lesser components, no gears, higher price somehow
> [/LIST]
> 
> FYI, the 2018 model of the Vertex has gears now rather than the 2 speed automatic. And they changed up the components (not sure if they are better or just different). They also switched the air fork from a Spinner Grind to a Suntour XCM Jr Air.
> ...


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

QueenMAUW said:


> svinyard said:
> 
> 
> > [*]Rocky Mountain Vertex - lesser components, no gears, higher price somehow
> ...


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## QueenMAUW (Sep 3, 2010)

Steve-XtC said:


> QueenMAUW said:
> 
> 
> > If she is only riding trails somewhat casually then I'd question the suspension fork .. where it might provide a slight advantage a few weeks a year it is just an albatross the rest of the time. Decent gearing and weight would be more important for anything not cycling down technical trails that she won't be doing (it's not like you can't just jump onto a black trail etc. If you only ride trails a few weeks a year)
> ...


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## Steve-XtC (Feb 7, 2016)

QueenMAUW said:


> Steve-XtC said:
> 
> 
> > Good point. We'd considered it because her two complaints on the trails this summer were "hey wait, I can't get my bike up this hill!" (needs decent gearing as you say) and "my hands hurt, these trails are too bumpy!" and then we listen to complaints and typically head to something with less roots and bumps when we can.
> ...


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

New Commencal MetaHT+ looks interesting for 2018. Looks like big updates. has a 100mm Ride fork (anyone know if this is a solid option)?

https://www.commencal-store.co.uk/meta-ht-20-shiny-red-2018-c2x22592125

Looks like a competitor to the Spawn Yama Jama, but wow the component set sucks for the price.


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## crepasz (Aug 30, 2013)

I am torn between the Commencal HT+ and the Yama Jama. Wonder what the new air fork on the Commencal is like?


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Honestly, from what I can see in the two photos they have, the Commencal fork may be the Brood fork with different stickers. Could be legit. That said, the YJ20 is worth the extra $150 for the GX drivetrain and 130 mm thru-axle cranks.


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## crepasz (Aug 30, 2013)

Yeah I imagine I can run those tires tubeless at some pretty low pressures as well. She test rode a scott scale 20+ and loved it. Thats what got me on the plus tire bandwagon...


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