# so, honestly....



## coupon (Jun 20, 2007)

why do these things cost so dang much?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

coupon said:


> why do these things cost so dang much?


How much does a top-of-the-line fishing rod and reel cost?....How much for two tickets to your favorite sporting event and food while you're there?....how much for a computer, printer, etc. ...new bike wheels?....a set of new disk brakes?...

For a couple hundred dollars you can get a decent two light set-up for your bike and extend the fun you now only enjoy during the day. Heck, I spend $70 a month just on cable tv. 

Now if $200 is too much you can go the cheap route a buy some torches or a cheap D/X MS clone. There are always cheaper options.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

I somewhat like the higher price. Not because I enjoy paying more money, but more in terms that the higher price from certain vendors leave some wiggle room for the lower price competion. I look at it as a check and balance system. The higher price vendor leaves enough of a price gap such that the Asian market have space to develope new lights with the latest offerering. Then after the bugs are worked out and the design are solid, then the higher price vendors can gives us their offerring. There will be quality issue with the lower price stuff, but it is not like something we are force into buying.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Mmmm, b/c they're a freakin' blast?












*actually I agree w/ CMD, not much cash for the amount of fun you get in return.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Aug 28, 2009)

coupon said:


> why do these things cost so dang much?


They don't! $100 will get you a great Chinese made light. Hell you can even get a nice $50 flashlight and tape it to your helmet if you want. The Magicshine, BikeRay, and Gemini lights are all very good products although not without some drawbacks.

Like anything, if you bump up to the "premium" level like Light and Motion, NiteRider, and Baja Designs you're just going to get an overall better product. Their products are custom designed with a lot of R&D and a higher level of QA. They often have a better warranty and a better support team in the event that something does happen. And of course, products made in the USA or European countries vs. China/Taiwan are just going to cost more.

In the end, I didn't want to drop $300 on a light so purchased a Magicshine for $85. It was a good product and has worked well, but now I am without a battery due to the recall and LONG timeline for replacement. I bought a second Magicshine about a year later so I would have even more light and a backup should one fail. I'd like to be able to drop $500 on a comparable setup from L&M, NR, or Baja...but that extra $300 is going into other bike upgrades!


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

sorry, didn't intend to threadjack.


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## coupon (Jun 20, 2007)

it was a simple question randy. if you don't know the answer, just say so.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

coupon said:


> it was a simple question randy. if you don't know the answer, just say so.


Catmando wrote it down as well as anybody can. read no further.


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## hiroshima (Apr 17, 2006)

OP. You have come to the party late enough that you clearly don't remember when crappy halogen lights used to cost $300 and compared to today's lights, looked like utter crap.

You also don't remember when HID lights, with their jittery beams, spotty performance, and expensive propriatary bulbs used to cost $450, and have less light,worse reliability, and a HUGE battery, then a $89 Chinese LED light.

Remember when a 42" SD Plasma TV would cost you $13,000? Now you can get a 42" set for $500, but its 1080p, comes with an HD tuner, and weighs 1/5th what the sets did 10 years back. 

And someone probably wonders why $500 LCD TV's are so expensive. 

Its all in your perspective.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

coupon said:


> why do these things cost so dang much?


You think spending $45 to have a 600ish lumen light, with mounts, charger and battery, shipped to your door is too much?? Seriously?!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Posted by RandyHarris:


> I wonder why it is that some people will rail against high quality lights that are not inexpensive, yet I don't often see people making the same judgement about a several thousand dollar bike when there are far less expensive options available.


Yeah, people will go out and buy the latest cell phone that cost hundreds and never skip a beat but the thought of buying an expensive bike light or torch they don't understand.  When the people I work with see my bright torches they are very impressed but when I tell them how much it cost they think the $30 is WAY TOO much for a flashlight. :lol:


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## coupon (Jun 20, 2007)

fightnut said:


> You think spending $45 to have a 600ish lumen light, with mounts, charger and battery, shipped to your door is too much?? Seriously?!


No, not really. But $500 is.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

coupon said:


> No, not really. But $500 is.


Who told you that you need a $500 light?
Grab a couple $45 lights, and be happy. Forget the guys that pay ridiculous amounts for their lights. That's their problem 

Last night I rode with a guy that has a nice $300 light and says he's upgrading to a $600 Lupine.
Meanwhile I have two lights ($90 and $45) and I'm doing the same group ride as him, on the same trails, at the same pace, and having the same amount of fun......... Doesn't make sense to me, but for some reason it's important to some people to have name brand stuff and pay a certain amount of $, as if they aren't serious mtn bikers if they don't. Whatever.


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## hiroshima (Apr 17, 2006)

coupon said:


> No, not really. But $500 is.


Do you know it costs almost $15,000 (not a typo) to do a clutch change on a Lambo Gallardo (not the MT but the SMG-style version)?

What's my point?

Nobody forces someone to by a $150,000 car that has service bills that high. Just like everything else. Expensive is an opinion, not a fact.

A Bugatti will cost you a 1.25 million dollars. There are a lot things out there more expensive then a $500 light, and nobody says you must but a Betty.

Curious what kind of bike you ride. Because unless is a full carbon Ibis with XTR or SRAM XX, why do you feel the need to buy the absolute top of the line?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

coupon said:


> why do these things cost so dang much?


Low volume. Tooling. Engineering. If you don't have high volume you can't amortize the cost of the other two things.

J.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Agree with JonJ.

Some things i heard from legitimate companies:
- Research and Development
- certifications UL & UN
- Tooling - plastic molds can be very expensive.
- Marketing/advertising/materials/website/outreach/shows
- Real salaries, benefits/etc

fc


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

$500 too much ?
well , it is amazing , to see $3000-4000 bikes, and when it comes it lights,
the penny pinching starts. mostly with the starters, the more experienced ones,
usually have some decent lights, and have extra batteries.
while some others, with some single lights and not big enough battery with no extras,
usually ride out at the tail end, with no lights,...
so get your flavor, but get also some extra batteries and chargers.
2x handlebar light 1x helmet, plus extra juice , should get you there,...
I mean , some spend $500 just for a Battery, not including the charger,... 
for a reason,....
So , next time you put that El-Cheapo, maybe rain but not waterproof light,
on your carbon fiber handlebar, ask, why are the bikes so expensive ?
Do you have a huffy, or do you have a decent bike ?
another one, a long time ago, racing ,and riding 2-3 per week,
must have spend $1500-2000 plus easy, in pizza and beer, not counting racing fees etc,....
all in all, in 10years+, that makes for a new car ,.... not even counting , bikes, parts, wheels , tires, etc
what else, at least 2-3 plus sets of tires, that's 200 bucks in a season.
on the other end, see, plenty, on the road, not even with a blinky flasher !? 
back to the $500, make that 2x $500, 1x handlebar, 1x helmet light, plus spare juice.
cheers, Rob


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## RE1GN2 (Feb 28, 2008)

coupon said:


> why do these things cost so dang much?


This is a good point. I think you may be addressing the first thought that occurs in a lot of night riding beginners. I know the majority of people have the same reaction. You may not be getting the same reaction here in the forums (as evident by the replies) because you are asking the question to people who are night riding veterans and enthusiasts.

People generally think that electronics are cheap and they are right. Electronics _are_ in fact really cheap. However, if you look at the electronics around you.. they are made in large quantities for the mainstream market. Mountain biking isn't mainstream (even though it should be ). You then have a small percentage of those MTBers going night riding. So lights are definitely not considered as high quantity items for electronics manufacturers (board makers). Rightly so, it shouldn't be compared to the household electronic item. *Economies of scale (or lack there of) is the direct cause a $500+ light. But not exactly the way you would think..* More on that later. Going onto my next point, the cycling industry.

When a product is placed in the cycling market, you might scratch your head thinking "*bloody hell that is a lot to pay for..*"- it is true, the price you pay is a lot more than it costs. Here's why:

*Rule of thumb: Retail price divide by 3.4*

Retailers (bike shops, online retailers) take 100% markup.
Distributors take 70% markup.
Manufacturers take 30-40% markup. (Yes, manufactures take diddly squat margins.. but they also sell the largest quantities).

For products to 'work' in the cycling industry it *needs* to follow this business model. Everything you see in the bike stores experience a multiplier effect totaled to 3.4.
Every little bit of extra cost the manufacturer incurs, gets multiplied by 3.4 to you, the end user. *The reason why these markups exist:* scaling within the chain of sale. Bike shops sell few quantities but have high costs. Labour, rent, marketing etc. They usually have it bad and you should feel for these guys. Distributors are the business sharks. They collectively serve all bike stores and tack on a hefty margin for it. Their job is by far the easiest and their costs are also usually lower in relation to their operations. They move what is wanted to the people that want them. Virtually no marketing is needed and manufacturers and bike stores both need them to place orders (you can't ask to stock up on 5 more units from a manufacturer). But manufacturers have it bad too. They spend tonnes of money on R&D, tooling costs, capital investment, marketing the brand and of course production costs - all to gain a small percentage. In the grand scheme of things where person A needs a good or service from person B. That simply doesn't happen. The item needs to go though C & D before it gets to them.

And all you Magicshine haters have it all wrong. Their lights are cheap to make yes, but so is the cost to make *everything else*.. including products in USA. DIY people know all about it, thats why DIY exists. The high pricing comes from the *the passing of hands* not some technology or the facade of 'god-like' quality. Magicshine and all the other cheaper lights *do not follow* the traditional business model formed by the cycling industry. Their lights go straight from manufacturer to retailer, and even still.. mostly online retailers where costs are lower.. not your local bike shops. And for those who argue quality, yes you do achieve quality with $500+ lights, and as you should, but its still not worth the price tag because of the multiplier effect. What would actually cost an *extra $20* in manufacturing improvements to the product ends up costing $68 extra to you. You see the markup.

So next time you flame on cheaper products.. think about it. You are ruining the competition that is actually favoring you and benefitting you in the long term. I for one could never afford to night ride before the cheaper lights like Magicshine, Gemini and BR existed. *And I'm sure I'm not the only one.* Bang-for-buck always wins the majority hands down and it's the only logical way to measure worth.

We should all have the mentality to share the night riding experience with everyone whether people rock Lupines, Bajas or Magicshine. No need to be snobby. If you think its worth buying a top dollar light good for you, but you don't need to bash what others might see as gold.


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## Earlybird Rider (Sep 16, 2011)

*Justifying bike light purchase*

It is not too difficult to justify (rationalize ) a light purchase. Like a computer, buy the best you can afford. Answer the following questions to get into the right mindset:

1. What costs more: a Lupine Betty or coronary bypass surgery? 
2. Have you ever purchased a quality bike accessory that you later regretted?
3. Will your co-workers stare at you in disbelief when you tell them that your headlight costs more than their bikes?:eekster:
4. Is there anything more surreal than riding under a moonlit sky when everyone else is sleeping? 
5. Whose responsibility was it to grease Wheezer?


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## vans380 (Sep 11, 2005)

70% markup at distributors? Really? Not in my industry (electronic components distribution). We average a bit more than 1/7 of that for margins.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The cost of the electronic components in the product are cheap (relatively speaking, or at least not that expensive). Most of these lights dont' have all that many levels in the chain from mfg to end user. Dinotte, Lupine, etc... do not have retail channels with many levels.

If you don't build in high volume (typically 100Ku or higher even as an order size) then you don't get on the totally automated lines and your costs are higher. It's not practical to put stuff like this on high volume lines because the set up time kills you (lost opportunity cost while the line is being switched over and verified). In some cases, the cost to switch over a line is more than the cost of producing the devices. You also wind up with more expensive production techniques on a per unit basis like hand testing instead of automated testers or machining/milling instead of hydroforming etc... 

My guess is that the electronics for this stuff is largely hand assembled and tested. Not cheap. It's also, for the most part, probably not done in Asian factories so the labor cost is much higher. 

But the really big costs are the tooling, the software development, the engineering expense, the safety testing etc... Those are big dollar expenses and they are getting distributed over just a few units (relatively speaking). They are also typically overhead (i.e. they don't very on a per unit basis since you don't fire the engineers when you're done designing the light) so there has to be an ongoing contribution to that cost too.

I'm in this business - electronics and OEM manufacturing. I go through this analysis daily with customers, engineering teams, and factories. 

These lights are a tiny niche market of a few diehard few riders. It's tiny overall even compared to enthusiast cyclists. This is definitely low volume business. I'd bet that if any of these light mfgs sold 100K total lights per year of all models for their entire company, they'd be turning cartwheels. Maybe even if the numbers came in at 25,000 they'd be turning cartwheels. Never mind what a single version does. 

Just swagging some numbers out to come with a rough idea of number of lights sold by some of these guys. Let's guess that Lupine has 50 employees (a way high guess, I'd suggest) and that they have average sales per employee of $400,000 per year (similar to Microsoft which would also probably be a high number per employee). That would mean annual sales of $20M per year. Let's say that their average light sale is $400. That would mean that they only produce 50K total units per year - low volume. And the number is probably a lot less than that because I doubt they have per employee sales that high as Microsoft or have that many employees.

J.


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## RE1GN2 (Feb 28, 2008)

I agree with you. Low volume and hand assembly is right to assume. However.. I don't think tooling, engineering and moulds are the reason for the price tags we see. They are the biggest costs of the whole project but they are all included in overhead like you said. If you take a really large investment to cover those costs say 200K. $200,000 is absolutely an exaggeration to the real costs of a new light, but if you spread it over the 50K units it only raises the price by $4. If you include a 50% mark up for manufacturers we can say $6.

The reason why lights cost so much is because of the multiplier effect of the chain. That $6 dollar increase ends up being $20.4 to the end consumer. It's normal for products to pass from manufacturer - distributor - retailer - consumer. We see that Magicshine doesn't follow this model because we know retailers buy direct, including EBay sellers. They are undercutting everyone because the distributor's margins are taken out of the equation. It is a fact, there is not enough margins from cost to retail for regular distributors to carry Magicshine products. That is how they are changing the industry, for better or worse.. you can decide.

I hope this helped!


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## onobed (Dec 27, 2007)

I just dropped close to $700 on lights. Here is why I did it:
1. $220 on a tail light. I will be commuting a lot at night, I don't want to get hit by a car. I view this one as insurance. You simply can't compare a $30 tail light with $200 tail light. The $200 tailight is noticed.
2. Service. They guys at Dinotte were so knowledgable, patient, and willing to work with me, they earned a lot of the $700. I have not seen this to be the case with products from cheaper companies.
3. Mtn biking at night is something I might do 10 times a year. I really look forward to it. I am not going to chance it with cheaper gear. I know if I went riding with some cheaper light, and it broke, I would be pissed, go home, and buy a better light the next day. So, by just going to the better light off the bat, I am saving $100.
4. Safety: I view a light as helmet. If you lose it and you are riding you are screwed. 

At the end of the day it is priorities, there is no doubt you can enjoy a $50 light. It would be a tragedy if your $50 light crapped out and your wrecked a $400 wheel, or you break a clavicle and come home with a $1000 hospital bill.


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## RE1GN2 (Feb 28, 2008)

And I bet you're enjoying your light thoroughly.. even making others a little envious 

I just wanted to answer the original question as to why lights cost so much. If you speak to real DIY people who are not looking to sell their creations, they can tell you proudly how they made a similar build for orders of magnitude cheaper.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

onobed said:


> I just dropped close to $700 on lights. Here is why I did it:
> 1. $220 on a tail light. I will be commuting a lot at night, I don't want to get hit by a car. I view this one as insurance. You simply can't compare a $30 tail light with $200 tail light. The $200 tailight is noticed.
> 2. Service. They guys at Dinotte were so knowledgable, patient, and willing to work with me, they earned a lot of the $700. I have not seen this to be the case with products from cheaper companies.
> 3. Mtn biking at night is something I might do 10 times a year. I really look forward to it. I am not going to chance it with cheaper gear. I know if I went riding with some cheaper light, and it broke, I would be pissed, go home, and buy a better light the next day. So, by just going to the better light off the bat, I am saving $100.
> ...


$200K is probably what the tooling cost for one or two plastic parts (that's why not too much plastic on this stuff). That doesn't include the burdened engineering expense etc.. You also have to have high margins if you keep engineering talent on hand presuming you don't contract it out. Margins on this out the door at the lighting company have to be at least 30-50%. Then with a single level of sales (i.e. distributor) that holds seasonal inventory it's going to add another 12-20% depending on how many inventory turns the mfg wants to see (negotiated with the distributor). Back when I was managing engineering groups when we figured cost on products we were designing, we used markups of 278% over cost of goods sold with high volume products and a dealer network. Engineering is much more expensive now, so I'd expect that number to be higher, especially on premium products like these.

I don't know what it costs to develop and make custom lenses, but my bet is that that is not cheap. Probably one of the larger expenses because of materials purity issues, molding and high defect rate.

Using my numbers above, I'd say the revenue per employee is probably closer to half that amount and so are the number of employees. I just used those numbers grossly inflated to show how low the volume actually is. So, using those numbers, we'd get a lower quantity and much higher amortized costs. But you get the idea - since these are small private companies, we'll never know. Until a 1000 lumen light gets commoditized and the prices therefore driven down to nothing, these are going to be expensive lights. Just no way around it.

Here's the thing - the market is really small the volumes are really small. The cost of the electronics is relatively known. If these things cost $10 to make and sold for $500 there would be all sorts of people all over this market in a heartbeat. Multipliers on cost of 50x would attract some serious big players into even a niche market. But it's really not so that tells you that these things are relatively pretty expensive to design and manufacture.

J.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

I got a really good reason why these thing cost so much. Just ask Geoman and I'm sure they can tell you why things are mark up. A battery pack goes bad and the liability cost and solution will burn a hole in your pocket faster than the profit made from selling that product at a super low price.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

colleen c said:


> I got a really good reason why these thing cost so much. Just ask Geoman and I'm sure they can tell you why things are mark up. A battery pack goes bad and the liability cost and solution will burn a hole in your pocket faster than the profit made from selling that product at a super low price.


Yep. That's part of that big overhead charge on cost of goods sold. Warranty costs are a part of that - as are reliability and safety testing. 

J.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I just got a killer deal on the Niterider pro 3000 $400. My old lights are the Magicshines. This light simple blows all the Chinese's lights out of the water. I went night riding the other night and one guy had 2 Magicshines on the bar and 1 one on the helmet and my light on high clearly illuminated the entire trail far better then 3 Magicshines. 

But if I were just getting into night riding, I would definitely start out with the cheaper lights until I figured out if this is something I like or not.


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## 'BentRyder (Sep 17, 2011)

Perception. It is all about perception. If a $500 light is good enough, a $900 is almost twice as good. This is what we are taught today. It's a marketing world and most responders here have been caught up in it and are adding to the promotion.

Not that this is all wrong. There really are a select few that truly need the capability offered by these high end companies. But 90% of those who buy, are just buying status.

Then you have those that really don't know the tech. They need a way to go to work on their bikes and they cannot afford to be run over on their commute. Again, marketing... fearfactor. But you cannot find cheap -reliable- solutions today. So we weigh the options where the fear for life is #1 or #2 in the decision. Just look at the price for reflective tape. Fear-Marketing!

All that money spent on research and development, this too is marketing for the most part. How long did Dinotte market their minimal selection? Why suddenly do they have a whole range of lights? Simply because they have new competion in their marketspace. This is expensive to maintain, but they need the edge... and in this case, a marketing edge built on reputation. Their product is not low production volume any more, but only recently have their product become competitive in pricing.

I almost hate posting this reply because so many here are elitist who look down on people for even posing this question. I think the question is quite valid and in the same vain, there is a perfectly plausible answer. But none are simple without knowing the inner workings of the company you are discussing. I have a break point for lighting costs... it is when I can no longer put dinner on the table.


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## TCW (Mar 13, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> I just got a killer deal on the Niterider pro 3000 $400. My old lights are the Magicshines. This light simple blows all the Chinese's lights out of the water. I went night riding the other night and one guy had 2 Magicshines on the bar and 1 one on the helmet and my light on high clearly illuminated the entire trail far better then 3 Magicshines.
> 
> But if I were just getting into night riding, I would definitely start out with the cheaper lights until I figured out if this is something I like or not.


I can totally believe the your Pro 3000 would out-perform the 3 Magicshines. Interestingly my single cheapo Foride looks like about 3 Magicshines (old model- P4 emitter). A buddy of mine uses a 400 lumen bar light and a 250 lumen helmet light and he obliterates everyone on night rides. His light output is weak but his speed is killer. Really, 1000 - 1500 lumes should be plenty. But having more is pretty cool. Currently I'm running about 2,200 lumes max and it's more than enough, usully run the Foride on medium. Total cost for my set up was about $320. That seems reasonable to me.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

you'd be surprised by how much a decent DIY light costs to make - for a single XM-L light with a 4 cell battery and basic charger, you're looking at ~$100, perhaps a bit more, so it's impossible to compete with a cheap Chinese light. Sure, it might be better, be more reliable and closer to it's theoretical maximum output than a DX light, but not enough to explain that 2x premium to a customer. Then, if you add profit (!), warranty backup and so on, you're looking at ~$200 - no one's going to buy that.

However, adding another XM-L costs $10, so you've suddenly gone from 1000 theoretical lumens to 2000 and from competing with cheap chinese lights to competing with expensive brand name lights, at which point $200 or so might look appealing.

Chinese lights are cheap because they're built in the 100,000s and they use cheap parts. They also have effectively no warranty. Selling direct is part of that, but I'd wager that a cheap Chinese light would still be cheap if it was sold at a bike shop, if a bike shop wanted to take that kind of risk with no manufacturer support (er, Geoman?). This isn't bashing cheap chinese lights. I think they've done a lot to foster competition and get more people into night riding. I just wouldn't use one myself.

Brand name lights are expensive because they're built in smaller no.s, with higher quality components, more R+D in driver/battery/optic design and, most importantly, have a WARRANTY. I'm sure the margins required by the supply chain (BTW, distributors in this part of the US have 10-15% profit margins, not 70%) drive up the price, but they're also part of the support and warranty chain.

At the end of the day, everything is good - cheap lights are good to get people into the sport and keep the big guys honest, medium price lights are good for those who can't stomach Lupine prices and expensive lights are good for driving forward technology (MS is a knock off of a Lupine, remember?). As long as you have 2 lights for redundancy, the batteries last long enough to get you home and you can see well enough not to crash, who cares?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Another reason the chinese knockoff lights are cheaper is that they do a tear down and basically don't have to design circuits or other things. They just copy them. That saves a ton on engineering and overhead although they don't own the nuances of the design and then often get into warranty trouble - like poor or cheap battery design etc...

J.


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## ussprinceton2004 (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm curious to see how the prices will look within the next few years for the expensive lights because so many buyers are purchasing the cheaper Chinese made copies


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

RE1GN2 said:


> This is a good point. I think you may be addressing the first thought that occurs in a lot of night riding beginners. I know the majority of people have the same reaction. You may not be getting the same reaction here in the forums (as evident by the replies) because you are asking the question to people who are night riding veterans and enthusiasts.
> 
> People generally think that electronics are cheap and they are right. Electronics _are_ in fact really cheap. However, if you look at the electronics around you.. they are made in large quantities for the mainstream market. Mountain biking isn't mainstream (even though it should be ). You then have a small percentage of those MTBers going night riding. So lights are definitely not considered as high quantity items for electronics manufacturers (board makers). Rightly so, it shouldn't be compared to the household electronic item. *Economies of scale (or lack there of) is the direct cause a $500+ light. But not exactly the way you would think..* More on that later. Going onto my next point, the cycling industry.
> 
> ...


*RE1GN2*... I quoted your entire post because I felt it was one of the best posts that I've read in a long time. _In a nut shell you have it nailed down._ Well said. :thumbsup: The people who commented afterward also deserve a nod of approval as well and added much to the discussion.

Like you said in your last two paragraphs, having the cheaper Chinese alternatives for bike lights have helped changed the bike light industry as a whole with "the consumer" being the beneficiary of the increased competition. This increased competition ( as I see it ) has at least a three-fold benefit. For one it makes bike lights much more easier to buy for people who's pockets are not so deep. Secondly, it makes the higher end manufacturers more determined to keep their cost ( and over-head ) within reason. They also need to innovate and improve to make their products more attractive to the consumer. The Chinese on the other hand will do what the Chinese always do....find a way to make their products more attractive to consumers and still make a buck.

Say what you will about the cheaper Chinese stuff but one thing is definitely clear: The Chinese are making their stuff better. By "Better", I mean more issues and better features are being addressed.. Brighter set-ups are being offered. Water repellency is now being addressed. Custom ( or special ) optics are being seen and one ( Gemini ) has even gone as far as to offer a duel menu driver. All this and the prices are still kept to a minimum. Hopefully this trend will continue.

No one will ever accuse the Chinese of over-engineering a product (  ) but the fact that they are willing to make a better more diverse product is encouraging. With this in mind, the big boys of the light industry have no choice but to stand up, take notice and compete accordingly.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The lumen wars will shortly come to an end. Then it's going to be about features, reliabilty/quality and price.

But, unless the Chinese actually start innovating, they will continue to cut cost and turn out more junk. You can't win long term by copying. You have to add value. When the material costs get down too low, then there isn't any room left to cut price and the low value add guys die.

J.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> *RE1GN2*Secondly, it makes the higher end manufacturers more determined to keep their cost ( and over-head ) within reason. They also need to innovate and improve to make their products more attractive to the consumer.


To show an example of this, I believe the DiNotte 1200L-Plus came out near $500 and now sells (improved even) for $350. They've had to sharpen their pencil no doubt in part because of competition as discussed here.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

JohnJ80 said:


> The lumen wars will shortly come to an end. Then it's going to be about features, reliabilty/quality and price.
> 
> But, unless the Chinese actually start innovating, they will continue to cut cost and turn out more junk. You can't win long term by copying. You have to add value. When the material costs get down too low, then there isn't any room left to cut price and the low value add guys die.
> 
> J.


John I do say you do take a very pragmatic approach. :skep: As such many will disagree with your conclusions on what business approach works best. However I'm not disputing what business model works best but personally I don't think it is about "winning" per say as much as it is about making a profit. Whither for short term or long term the Chinese will make and sell whatever is in demand. People will continue to copy products as long as there is a market for such things. I think that is almost a given. Adding features and better quality does add value. With their lower over-head, I don't see the Chinese bike light manufacturers going away anytime soon.

Now if the market becomes saturated with cheap knock-offs eventually some of those manufactures will stop making bike lights. Just don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen any time soon.


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## coupon (Jun 20, 2007)

thanks everyone, very illuminating discussion.

I do appreciate everyone's time, thought & effort. Guess I just need to go see these things in their natural habitat to figure out how much to lay out.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

coupon said:


> thanks everyone, very illuminating discussion.
> 
> I do appreciate everyone's time, thought & effort. Guess I just need to go see these things in their natural habitat to figure out how much to lay out.


If you're new to night riding, no harm in going and getting something like a Magicshine or Gemini and see how it sticks. If you enjoy it and stay with it, you may decide to stick with the brand you start with or see the benefit of the lights that cost more. No harm no foul if you don't see the benefit.

The Gemini Xera is on special with free shipping if you preorder by tomorrow, if Chris at Gemini will extend free shipping also to their P7 Titan light, that would make a killer dual light system for only $250 total.


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## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Interesting topic of discussion and a great read to say the least.

It's really nice to see the people in this community throw in some ideas and have a collective approach to an issue. A really good vibe here.

We don't deny it, we manufacture our lights in Asia because that's where all the components originate from and labour is cheaper (as a standard). The company was founded in BC, Canada and moved to Hong Kong for production. And please, don't accuse us of taking advantage of cheaper labour because in reality its very much the other way around. To successfully manufacture in Asia is a really difficult task. For us who have western mentalities for our business practices, we get boshed around because we don't follow local standard and procedures and we are not seen as local company. However, once you do get production up and running with the right suppliers, and you have the whole operation under a tight grip, the dividends are worth it. The whole mentality of building Gemini Lights was because we wanted to provide affordable and quality lights hand-in-hand.

If you want the low down on how Gemini started you can read an article in VIMB.com: Victoria BC Based Gemini Lights » VIMB.com

And Randy, any items placed on order together with XERA also receive free shipping as a whole bonus. However I will recommend that the XERA is better than the TITAN is every application.

Cheers,

Chris


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cat-man-do said:


> John I do say you do take a very pragmatic approach. :skep: As such many will disagree with your conclusions on what business approach works best. However I'm not disputing what business model works best but personally I don't think it is about "winning" per say as much as it is about making a profit. Whither for short term or long term the Chinese will make and sell whatever is in demand. People will continue to copy products as long as there is a market for such things. I think that is almost a given. Adding features and better quality does add value. With their lower over-head, I don't see the Chinese bike light manufacturers going away anytime soon.
> 
> Now if the market becomes saturated with cheap knock-offs eventually some of those manufactures will stop making bike lights. Just don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen any time soon.


winning = good profits.

What I guess I mean to say is that the Chinese have to innovate if they want to be more than just the contract manufacturing - and that isn't happening. Eventually what happens is the cost gets wrung out of it by the big players and then even the knockoffs wither away until they are like caricatures of the original thing. Like the fake DVDs that are made from handheld movie cameras in theaters or the fake iphones that are a cell phone chip inside with a 4GB flash chip and no software. It's when the real innovators get the feature set driven up so high and manufacturing cost driven down so low that there is no more room for knock offs even. That's what we're going to be approaching soon. I mean at 3000 lumens out the front, more light is not needed anymore so it's going to be about features. The knockoff guys won't be able to keep up.

Whenever this has happened in the past, the Chinese/Asian factories just make the parts for the big companies. This is where the Magicshines of the world disappear because they are usually small companies with a manufacturing plant of small size, little (but some) engineering. They can't innovate enough to keep up and they can't get their costs any lower to match the big guys. So, they get squeezed out.

Until then and before all the innovators get their volumes up enough and/or their own contract manufacturing set up overseas, the knockoff guys have room to play. Actually, I think their efforts just serve to hasten the inevitable because they increase the rate of decline of margins, the commoditization of the industry.

As the guy from Gemini says, setting up Asian manufacturing is really difficult and takes a lot of work. It also requires a lot of risk taking because of international contracts (basically, forget about enforcing them), increased inventory needs, long surface shipment times, communicating with your foreign partners and getting it understood, etc... I deal with all of that every day.

J.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

JohnJ80 said:


> winning = good profits.
> 
> What I guess I mean to say is that the Chinese have to innovate if they want to be more than just the contract manufacturing - and that isn't happening.


Look at Apple for example, this past year Apple has been knocking it out of the pall bark with record earnings every quarter, yet the contract manufacturers that they use in Asia are having ho-hum earnings results.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Exactly. Where is the value added? In the features, design and innovation. Not in the labor and manufacturing.

J.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Great to see a manufacturer on the forums Chris and this is one of the best threads I've read. Thanks to all who contributed :thumbsup:



Gemini Lights said:


> Interesting topic of discussion and a great read to say the least.
> 
> It's really nice to see the people in this community throw in some ideas and have a collective approach to an issue. A really good vibe here.
> 
> ...


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

ussprinceton2004 said:


> I'm curious to see how the prices will look within the next few years for the expensive lights because so many buyers are purchasing the cheaper Chinese made copies


I am too. It's already happening. Just as one example, look at the Niterider Minewt 600 for $120-$150 (depending where you buy it). 
Just 2 years ago you couldn't buy a 600 lumen light from one of the big name manufacturers for anywhere near that price. You would have been looking at a minimum of $300-400.

And again, that's just one example. The Magicshine changed things for sure.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Not so much. Much of what you describe is the maturing of the industry and the cost for LEDs and their drive circuits have dropped too. Plus the engineering is not new anymore. I wouldn't attribute that all to Magicshine for sure. I mean, show me a consumer electronics category that doesn't follow the same path over time.

Not to long ago, 600 lumens was the max brightness that it was possible to produce. You couldn't get LEDs bright or efficient enough to go beyond that.

J.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

I think we are starting to see innovation paying dividends with 52 gram single XM-L lightheads at very reasonable prices backed by 12 months manufacturers warranties. The challenge will be to produce lightweight multi XM-L lightheads that are able to harness the improved technology and remain cool enough on the higher output levels. 2012 could be a very exciting year for us bike light junkies.



JohnJ80 said:


> The lumen wars will shortly come to an end. Then it's going to be about features, reliabilty/quality and price.
> 
> But, unless the Chinese actually start innovating, they will continue to cut cost and turn out more junk. You can't win long term by copying. You have to add value. When the material costs get down too low, then there isn't any room left to cut price and the low value add guys die.
> 
> J.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

I wouldn't really call any of the new single XM-L light heads coming out of China as innovative - for the large part they're simply swapping out the old P7 emitter for a new XM-L one. The drivers have a few more refinements (better thermal monitoring, fewer pointless torch modes) and the batteries are potentially better quality, but these are all incremental if welcomed improvements to an existing product.

The only innovation I've seen so far from Chinese lights (as opposed to lights designed outside of China but produced there) has been the triple and quad XP-G lights, which appear to have some issues with heat management and have some, um, curious component choices. Plus the beam patterns are predominantly flood, which while fine if you want that, don't point to an awful lot of time or effort spent optimising the beam.

Again, this isn't to bash Chinese lights - I'd much rather ride with someone using one than someone without a light at all (like on the last evening ride I went on). I just don't see the merit in ascribing much more to them than copy cat designs produced in bulk.


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## GEOMAN (May 30, 2006)

Have you seen the Gemini Xera? Half the size, half the weight (52 grams) of the P7/XM-L lightheads you described. It has a custom optic and the first couple of months of testing are going really well. Agreed, it's great to see more people on the trails at night with at least a single light with a reasonable output for improved safety

XERA LED Light System | Gemini Lights



mattthemuppet said:


> I wouldn't really call any of the new single XM-L light heads coming out of China as innovative - for the large part they're simply swapping out the old P7 emitter for a new XM-L one. The drivers have a few more refinements (better thermal monitoring, fewer pointless torch modes) and the batteries are potentially better quality, but these are all incremental if welcomed improvements to an existing product.
> 
> The only innovation I've seen so far from Chinese lights (as opposed to lights designed outside of China but produced there) has been the triple and quad XP-G lights, which appear to have some issues with heat management and have some, um, curious component choices. Plus the beam patterns are predominantly flood, which while fine if you want that, don't point to an awful lot of time or effort spent optimising the beam.
> 
> Again, this isn't to bash Chinese lights - I'd much rather ride with someone using one than someone without a light at all (like on the last evening ride I went on). I just don't see the merit in ascribing much more to them than copy cat designs produced in bulk.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

GEOMAN said:


> Have you seen the Gemini Xera? Half the size, half the weight (52 grams) of the P7/XM-L lightheads you described. It has a custom optic and the first couple of months of testing are going really well. Agreed, it's great to see more people on the trails at night with at least a single light with a reasonable output for improved safety
> 
> XERA LED Light System | Gemini Lights


Why is that a new innovation?

J.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

GEOMAN said:


> Have you seen the Gemini Xera? Half the size, half the weight (52 grams) of the P7/XM-L lightheads you described. It has a custom optic and the first couple of months of testing are going really well. Agreed, it's great to see more people on the trails at night with at least a single light with a reasonable output for improved safety
> 
> XERA LED Light System | Gemini Lights


I have, but last time I checked Gemini was a Canadian company that designs lights and has them manufactured in China under contract. By the same criteria, you could include Baja Designs in the group of "Chinese lights".

As I tried to stress in the post you replied to, the innovation in Chinese designed and made lights (eg. MagicShine) is largely lacking or half baked, which is a reflection of their low cost.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'd say that the where it's designed and the company HQ is determines the nationality of the light. Under that heading, I'd say that the Gemini lights are Canadian, not Chinese. That said, it does get into a gray area. If they don't monitor and tightly control the contract manufacturer a good design can turn into junk in a real hurry. I've seen that happen with counterfeit parts used by a CM in a mainline product from a Fortune 50 customer in a safety and reliability sensitive product. So it's no trivial thing.. 

J.


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## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Well the gray area is about to get even more gray.

We aren't quite a Canadian contractor.. we actually exist in China as well. Yes, we do visit and communicate with factories on a daily basis. We do speak mandarin and have built up relationships with good suppliers and we even have experience with manufacturing many things besides lights in China. As much as there is possible for a light manufacturer to build in-house, we have done it. We've designed, selected and built the layout of our board and components. We do have our own facility where we assemble and do our multilevel QC, logistics department etc. so we've kept outsourcing and contracting to the bare necessities. We've learned our lesson from last year's blunder.

We are a team of designers, engineers, product testers, sales and marketers and they are all friends and family. So we are very much there and in control of the entire process. The key difference is, that the whole operation is spear-headed and led by a rider just like you. 

As for talks on innovation for the XERA. I'll step in here.

I'll mention our new user programming feature, which is only found on expensive lights. And it too, is designed by good ol' Canadians. For you DIYers and hobbyists, you would appreciate this: we use Dutch AVR Atmel Intergrated Circuits. Rated #1 high performance ICs. To us, the cost difference is minimal and its something we are used to programming with, bringing the controls entirely in our hands. We have also dropped a shedload of money on our custom optics. They are tailored to our XERA and are unavailable anywhere else on the market. We do have backup optics too that we have worked on and also a reflector version. And we've developed new internals of XERA that are different to traditional lights made here - more heat dissipation to the case and we combined some key functionalities into one feature, where less is more (you can have a look when you open her up). Lastly, the helmet mounts and head belt have been revamped, making them smaller, lower and lighter than last years. The new XERA mount has left, right, up and down adjustability on-the-fly. And I guess that's a lot talk.. it's all very uninteresting and holds no water if it doesn't work well in the field. So, we do our testing in the wet winters of the North West Pacific.

So I think that's quite a bit effort for a product aimed for the 'affordability' market. It really isn't the case where we rebadge and resell. The XERA is the fresh start of a new beginning.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for the information. Quite interesting. 

Not to say that Asian or Chinese products can't be innovative - it's just to date that has not been their track record. That's their challenge to start innovating as opposed to contract manufacturing or copying. 

I'd not hang my hat on any one IC supplier. The semiconductor industry changes with lightning speed and there is huge competition in power IC's and LED drive components rigtht now. To my knowledge nobody has emerged as a head and shoulders leader. 

In fact, if you want to stay alive in this business, I'd suggest that you might want to quickly be looking at doing your own integrated drive control circuits for looking down the road when the lumen thing tops out (shortly, if not this year) and the push goes into features and cost. Somewhere down the road in the next 25-36 months or so that might just become the important differentiator in cost and performance.


J.


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## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

Well actually, the Atmel IC gives us all the features we need and we're not using it to its full potential. It's capable of 256 discrete brightness levels via an 8-bit digital potentiometer. This allows the smooth fade effect we wanted, which we could've achieved with a 128 chip. Atmel is rated best by all hobbyists because it's high performing and great to program with it's open-source AVR GCC compiler. You can find people raving about these chips on _AVR freaks_, _Make Magazine_ or _Instructables_.

To stay alive in the business we need to keep running with all the other leaders in the pack.. not really to stop and design our own integrated drive circuits where A) the semiconductor arena is not our forte and B) take the risky opportunity cost.

However, if you do have any cool ideas you would like to see in the future of lights.. we are very interested in new innovation. We are working on some things of our own and XERA really is just an appetizer. As Geoman said, 2012 will be a stellar year.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

My point is this - LED lighting is a HUGE focus of the IC industry right now. Everybody and their brother is making or introducing LED driver chips and LED control chips. Hobbyists don't control that market, it's going to be controlled by automotive, architectural and consumer lighting applications very quickly. So, don't get too hung up on one company's part or another. The big guys on onto this and it's going to change very quickly. Every major lighting guy and semiconductor guy has a partner on the other side of the industry - Samsung, TI, LTC, Phillips (they are also into light bulbs), etc.... Every major IC supplier that we talk to comes in and tells us about how the LED lighting market is their #1 focus. 

Innovation, features and cost are going to be the competitive features going forward in the next 36 months. It's going to be really hard to work the cost side unless you control the integration. If you are just using the same relative components to make this work (microcontrollers, drivers, power control) you don't get an advantage and you're at risk for lack of differentiations and higher cost. That's a tricky place to be.

J.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Gemini Lights said:


> However, if you do have any cool ideas you would like to see in the future of lights..


As far as driver functionality goes, you wouldn't go far wrong if you checked out Taskled's drivers. Among the things I like about them are:
1) thermal monitoring (I know you have that)
2) mid and low battery warning that's programmable to be through either the stat LED or main LED (so, if you use the Xera on the helmet, can you see when the battery is running low?)
3) Vcut warning, with option for flash or off
4) user programmable modes, not just power levels. Having to cycle through Low to get to Med is a major pain and a big detractor for cheap(er) lights. Being able to use either Low or High or Low (Med High) is a huge plus.

For the rest of the light, user swappable (and supplied with the light) optics would be awesome, so you can choose before a ride which you want, depending on bar vs. helmet, terrain, etc.


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## izi (May 8, 2006)

Why it cost so much?
Because it is so dam good, if I talk about Lupine,...
I build all my lights by myself and every now and then I ask myself WHY,... I spend much more money in all this years so I could easy buy 2x Betty and have no worry, but no,... I am still looking for the right optic and LED's for my light,...


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Gemini Lights said:


> Well actually, the Atmel IC gives us all the features we need and we're not using it to its full potential. It's capable of 256 discrete brightness levels via an 8-bit digital potentiometer. This allows the smooth fade effect we wanted, which we could've achieved with a 128 chip. Atmel is rated best by all hobbyists because it's high performing and great to program with it's open-source AVR GCC compiler. You can find people raving about these chips on _AVR freaks_, _Make Magazine_ or _Instructables_.
> 
> To stay alive in the business we need to keep running with all the other leaders in the pack.. not really to stop and design our own integrated drive circuits where A) the semiconductor arena is not our forte and B) take the risky opportunity cost.
> 
> *However, if you do have any cool ideas you would like to see in the future of lights.*. we are very interested in new innovation. We are working on some things of our own and XERA really is just an appetizer. As Geoman said, 2012 will be a stellar year.





Fuel gauges on all batteries.
Programmable dimming - with total control (i.e. web app to program) 
helmet integration
moonlight mode (very dim like keychain LED flashlight)
auto dim/ auto bright maybe through ANT+ integration
battery health indicator


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Gemini Lights said:


> ...However,* if you do have any cool ideas you would like to see in the future of lights.*. we are very interested in new innovation. We are working on some things of our own and XERA really is just an appetizer. As Geoman said, 2012 will be a stellar year.


I'll bite on this ( ^^^ ) statement....:smilewinkgrin:

The *XERA* is a nice light. Following it's example, you might try designing a light that provides a flood beam pattern ( like the XERA ) along with a second emitter for throw ( reflector? ). Couple that with a similar multi-menu option driver as the XERA. ...then...*make sure it provides a TRUE 1400 "OTF Lumens*"...then....a nice simple but durable ( non O-ring ) bar mount that is tilt-able. Then offer this with a 6-cell battery option along with *the option for "a wired remote".*..:yesnod: ... If possible then price it to compete with the *Baja Stryker dual's* and the *DiNotte 1200L*+ as these systems are setting new standards for factory produced bar mounted bike lights.

If you give bike riders both the throw ( distance ) and the flood ( wide spread ) beam pattern in one lamp and do so at the right price....need I say, you will sell a lot of product to the knowledgeable folks who peruse these forums. :thumbsup:


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Then offer this with a 6-cell battery option along with *the option for "a wired remote".*..:yesnod: ...


Thumbs up for the remote option. Tactical flashlight uses that reverse clicky switch and it is so much easier to half click to change mode and full click to shut off. Most bike lights requires full click and sometimes holding down the button for a period of time to shut off. It is a PITA to have to remove one hand off the handlebar to perform this operation. On top of this, the lighthead tilt from the pressure requires to activate those switch which means I have to support the head in order to operate the switch.

I have a mod 2000 OTF lumen flashlight use as a bike light and the way the reverse clicky switch allows me to add any 3 or more amps rated remote switch connected between the battery and the light at the connector. This is something not possible with most current bike specific lights and I feel strongly it should especially when we are in an era where 1000+ lumen will be the norm.

Along with high power lights is the greater need for the responsibility of instant dimming.


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## fightnut (Jul 5, 2007)

I love the idea of a remote switch. But only really works for handlebar mounted lights.
How far fetched is the idea of a wireless, handlebar mounted remote switch for helmet mounted lights?

And I also agree with Cat about a dual "flood/throw" unit with 2 leds side by side.


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## Gemini Lights (Sep 20, 2010)

I really hope coupon doesn't mind the derailment of the thread.. The start of the thread was an engaging topic of discussion.

However, I smile as I write this.. but Cat-man-do is _pretty much on the money_ as to what we're working on as a current project. We have always wanted a powerful bar light to pair well with XERA, 2:1 is the magic ratio. Currently in its last phase of development and hoping to launch in a just few weeks. If you want to put in any last suggestions to our designers and engineers, you can head over to the Gemini Lights 2012 thread so we don't retract from this one.

Gracias!


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## dobovedo (Feb 13, 2011)

rschultz101 said:


> $500 too much ?
> well , it is amazing , to see $3000-4000 bikes, and when it comes it lights,
> the penny pinching starts.


Here's the difference, and why I think so many people hesitate to spend a few bucks, whether it is $50 or $500... expected lifespan.

If I drop a few grand on a bike, I know I'm going to be riding that bike for YEARS. Sure, that's going to include the cost of maintenance, but still.. I don't expect the frame to crack in 3 months.

Not so with bike lights.

Low end and high end, I've owned quite a few. Some have lasted years, some have lasted only a few months. Despite the supposed higher QA, testing, production capabilities of the more expensive models, I've seen them fail far too soon. I'm going on a 3rd battery replacement with one of mine (which I won't mention here). It's under warranty, but even so, I am out of a light for days or even weeks while waiting on replacements, and it costs me money to ship back.

I hesitate to buy the cheapies because, there's no guarantee that I won't have the same problems, and the Magicshine fiasco has demonstrated, that the damned thing as isn't going to be a fire hazard. I'd rather spend an extra $200 to ensure I'm not going to die in my sleep!

Even if that risk was exaggerated, the point is the same. I ride in the wet and muck all the time, and under those conditions, these lights simply don't hold up well. Spending any amount of money on them is a crapshoot.

Which is really a shame, because I don't see people reporting that their car lights shorting out every four-five months or every time it rains.


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## bik_ryder (May 12, 2009)

Some great thoughts, opinions and info.

We went with the cheep lights and "got what we paid for" - a poorly made light that shorted out on us several times during rides with a battery that was recalled due to the possibility of starting a fire when charging. When it did work, the light had a very greenish tint to it. Lesson learned. :madman:

For us, it is worth a the extra $ for performance, reliability, ruggedness and a company that will be around to stand behind the warranty down the road. :thumbsup:


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## RE1GN2 (Feb 28, 2008)

Good insights from everybody. I think the thread title should be renamed to something more informative .. "so honestly..." doesn't really say much!


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## coupon (Jun 20, 2007)

RE1GN2 said:


> Good insights from everybody. I think the thread title should be renamed to something more informative .. "so honestly..." doesn't really say much!


Something along the lines of "Holy ****!" ?


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