# Bye bye Pinkbike



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

The end of a VERY good run. Glad I was able to enjoy for as long as I did.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

?

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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ahhh yeah, Outside buying up everything isn't it?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Interesting, some really good things came out of Pinkbike. Not my particular demographic, but Beta MTB definitely is. The Grim Donut really took some guts and forward thinking. Keep funding the mad science, Outside.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/letter-from-the-editor-pinkbikes-next-chapter-with-outside.html


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

Goodbye indeed, and nothing lasts forever. I bet whatever the Pinkbike+ subscription fee is that the first thing they'll start charging for is posting for sale ads.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Ahhh yeah, Outside buying up everything isn't it?


What else did they buy? Didn't they have some financial issues of their own so they moved to an online subscription model?


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

stripes said:


> What else did they buy? Didn't they have some financial issues of their own so they moved to an online subscription model?


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Par for the course I guess. It's hard to think of any successful company that hasn't been bought out by a corporate giant.


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## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

I will be interested to see the throwdown between Pinkbike staff and BETA staff.... as long as I don't have to pay for it.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Outside magazine blows.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Redlands R&C said:


> I will be interested to see the throwdown between Pinkbike staff and BETA staff.... as long as I don't have to pay for it.


I suspect we'll see a lot more sponsored content. I'm sure we'll see more sponsored travel destination content too. Get ready for lots of "mountain bike capital of the world" tourists articles! Brought to you by walmart.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

stripes said:


> What else did they buy? Didn't they have some financial issues of their own so they moved to an online subscription model?


They bought the actual Outside. All of it. Trees, rocks, roots, dirt, streams - the whole lot. Access to outside spaces is available only with the premium subscription.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

prj71 said:


> Outside magazine blows.


Yeah, there was a time when they put out legit content but that was a long time ago. PB will never be the same. Corporate giants don't buy into niche sports unless they see big money on the horizon. Outside will milk MTB media for all it's worth.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

slimat99 said:


> ...PB will never be the same...


And TrailForks? It already began the downward slide with the annual subscription fee but I suspect that was nothing compared to what is in store...

The annual subscription fee may become payable monthly. Among other things.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

mtnbkrmike said:


> And TrailForks? It already began the downward slide with the annual subscription fee but I suspect that was nothing compared to what is in store...
> 
> The annual subscription fee may become payable monthly. Among other things.


I don't mind the fee, my work has value and so does theirs. The fee was also pretty small. But I value good UX.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> I don't mind the fee, my work has value and so does theirs. The fee was also pretty small. But I value good UX.


I fully agree. I am just worried now about what the future holds. Time will tell...


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## useless info (Nov 19, 2019)

mtnbkrmike said:


> And TrailForks? It already began the downward slide with the annual subscription fee but I suspect that was nothing compared to what is in store...
> 
> The annual subscription fee may become payable monthly. Among other things.


I hope they don't mess it up or start charging more. Trailforks is the best and the fee amount was fine, especially with the lifetime discount if you signed up in the first months. MTB Project is garbage as far as I'm concerned but this could be a good opportunity for them to make it better and gain more support?


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

prj71 said:


> Outside magazine blows.


Outside used to be pretty legit. Then its popularity exploded after the '96 Everest thing, and they decided to target image over substance.

The Outside article that for me summed up what the magazine had become was a review of parkas. Each parka was shown being worn by model looking Mofos over suit and ties. It was especially hilarious in the case of Patagucci when you know their motto is "Dedicated to the core."


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## useless info (Nov 19, 2019)

Just go downvote all of Brianpark's comments. He is easily upset by any opposing feedback and I get off on it.


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## redux (May 25, 2020)

Oh well. It will be interesting to see who absorbs who in the pinkbike vs beta battle for existence. Pinkbike is doomed regardless due to the Wes Siler association, that man is poison.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

dysfunction said:


> I don't mind the fee, my work has value and so does theirs. The fee was also pretty small. But I value good UX.


PB totally exploited the MTB community. Anyone with open eyes can see what they did. Had they been upfront about it I would understand, but that app was dubious by design. They got us to build their maps for free just so we can buy them back.


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## MyDadSucks (Sep 6, 2017)

useless info said:


> Trailforks is the best


its better than mtbproject but it is definitely not 'the best'


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Outside used to be pretty legit. Then its popularity exploded after the '96 Everest thing, and they decided to target image over substance.
> 
> The Outside article that for me summed up what the magazine had become was a review of parkas. Each parka was shown being worn by model looking Mofos over suit and ties. It was especially hilarious in the case of Patagucci when you know their motto is "Dedicated to the core."


That's just it. Outside is all fluff and no substance


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slimat99 said:


> PB totally exploited the MTB community. Anyone with open eyes can see what they did. Had they been upfront about it I would understand, but that app was dubious by design. They got us to build their maps for free just so we can buy them back.


You're buying the app (which works a hell of a lot better than it's competitor). But, I guess you like crap programming. More power to ya.

People seem to think that software should be free. Personally, I like actually being paid for my work.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

MyDadSucks said:


> its better than mtbproject but it is definitely not 'the best'


I prefer mtbproject over trailforks. Wish mtbproject was integrated into my garmin edge like Trailforks.


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## useless info (Nov 19, 2019)

MyDadSucks said:


> its better than mtbproject but it is definitely not 'the best'


What app is better? I'm down to try something else.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Outside magazine is a pile of liberal trash not worthy of picking up my dogs ass droppings with .


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

dysfunction said:


> You're buying the app (which works a hell of a lot better than it's competitor). But, I guess you like crap programming. More power to ya.
> 
> People seem to think that software should be free. Personally, I like actually being paid for my work.


Like I said, had they been upfront about it I would understand. I loved TF for years but when they started charging once the maps were populated without admitting to the the plan from the get go it rubbed me wrong. I'm not saying it's a bad app, I'm just saying it was dubious from the start. You must be able to see that. It's like napster letting people share music until they have a big enough library to sell the content back to the users that made them what they are.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

mtnbkrmike said:


> And TrailForks? It already began the downward slide with the annual subscription fee but I suspect that was nothing compared to what is in store...
> 
> The annual subscription fee may become payable monthly. Among other things.


I actually felt more comfortable using TrailForks as my primary ride GPS tool when they added subscriptions, knowing that it would be more reliable and better supported.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Trailforks has gotten me out of the woods safely - countless times. 

How can anyone have an issue with TF?


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

dysfunction said:


> You're buying the app (which works a hell of a lot better than it's competitor). But, I guess you like crap programming. More power to ya.
> 
> People seem to think that software should be free. Personally, I like actually being paid for my work.


It should be free since the MTB community made all the maps for them.

F**K TF and their subscription.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Trailforks has gotten me out of the woods safely - countless times.
> 
> How can anyone have an issue with TF?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Maybe they are liberal trash?


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

spaightlabs said:


> Maybe they are liberal trash?


Most likely

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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Outside magazine is a pile of liberal trash not worthy of picking up my dogs ass droppings with .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Totally man. They should do more articles promoting resource exploration instead of a bunch of stupid stuff about saving national monuments and stuff. What a bunch of a-holes...


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

I've been getting Outside for free for a few years now (I used to be a subscriber but then it started coming again after 5 years off). I wonder if anything else is included with my subscription? I was just about to pay for Trailforks but I'm going to let that settle a bit now.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Feel free to go to another site for political discussions. MTBR is not the place to grind your political axe. Seriously.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

rockcrusher said:


> Feel free to go to another site for political discussions. MTBR is not the place to grind your political axe. Seriously.


Noted and out.


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## MyDadSucks (Sep 6, 2017)

useless info said:


> What app is better? I'm down to try something else.


It depends what you're after. If all you care about is trail condition updates/comments on trails, then trailforks is okay, but making routes (especially in rural areas) always ends up with issues for me. Strava is good in that you can see all trails/roads in an area and their elevation profiles, as well as if that trail has been ridden recently or even that day, and have a better sense of whether youre finishing your 50 mile ride with a gentle 6% grade, or a brutal 2 miles with 25% grade slopes with flat spots in between them to give an average of 6%


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

There's always good old topo maps...


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## MyDadSucks (Sep 6, 2017)

Nat said:


> There's always good old topo maps...


CalTopo is how i found all the local goods before i got on strava


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

useless info said:


> What app is better? I'm down to try something else.


MTB project is a cool concept & interface and trail descriptions.

Trailforks - last year I was deep in the Pennsylvania woods off the MTB trail and wound up on a gravel trail that took me on a near 20 plus mile off road singletrack journey to nowhere. 
Wound up on private property with a gun sign warning . 
Trailforks got me to the exit and back to the lot.

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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

It is unfortunate, but also was inevitable. At a point, Pinkbike became a business with employees, payroll, expenses, and an owner that wanted to make some money as it was more than just a fun hobby. The owner wants to exit, so a buyer needed to be found.

I see it going one of two ways that could work:

Charge for the Buy/Sell Forum- This has been a windfall for users for years. Ebay charges. Paypal charges. It is not unreasonable to charge a flat $2-3 per listing or small percentage of the sales price.
Bundled Model- If I had to guess, this is the way that Outside will go, as it seems to be the current trend and what they already do. They will offer a bundled subscription, with some or all of their publications (including Beta, Pinkbike, the various outside magazines), plus the navigation apps (they already had Gaia, now have trailforks). Currently they charge $99 for their plus subscription, which gets their outside magazine and one additional magazine, as well as Gaia (and a bunch of other garbage that likely nobody cares about). I think it will be hard sell, but if they offered something like Pinkbike + Beta + Gaia + Trailforks premium for $49 per year, they would probably have a pretty good uptake.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Facebook mkt place & all of the bike sale groups are the way to go to sell a bike over paying PB a fee.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Trailforks has gotten me out of the woods safely - countless times.





Nat said:


> There's always good old topo maps...


MTB was better with maps instead of apps. When I hear things like an app got me out of the woods I think, dead batteries and darwinism.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> MTB was better with maps instead of apps. When I hear things like an app got me out of the woods I think, dead batteries and darwinism.


When I read smug comments or non tech reliant people I think people who are afraid to venture on their own and explore.

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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

TheNatureBoy said:


> MTB project is a cool concept & interface and trail descriptions.
> 
> Trailforks - last year I was deep in the Pennsylvania woods off the MTB trail and wound up on a gravel trail that took me on a near 20 plus mile off road singletrack journey to nowhere.
> Wound up on private property with a gun sign warning .
> ...


And what does that have to do with PB offering a free app for years so riders can populate maps for them to monetize?


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> And what does that have to do with PB offering a free app for years so riders can populate maps for them to monetize?


Who cares ?

Business is business

They were smart about it .

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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

TheNatureBoy said:


> When I read smug comments or non tech reliant people I think people who are afraid to venture on their own and explore.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That's funny coming from someone in PA. Your biggest nat forest is like a greenway out west. I guess you can technically drown in a bathtub.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Who cares ?
> 
> Business is business
> 
> ...


That's one way to look at it. Glad you're happy with how they handled it. I agree, it's brilliant business.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

prj71 said:


> Outside magazine blows.


I still like it. _shrug_


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

slimat99 said:


> That's funny coming from someone in PA. Your biggest nat forest is like a greenway out west. I guess you can technically drawn in a bathtub.


Dumb - you'd **** yourself in your fluorescent bike shorts









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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

TheNatureBoy said:


> MTB project is a cool concept & interface and trail descriptions.
> 
> Trailforks - last year I was deep in the Pennsylvania woods off the MTB trail and wound up on a gravel trail that took me on a near 20 plus mile off road singletrack journey to nowhere.
> Wound up on private property with a gun sign warning .
> ...


honestly despite big love for the PingBike, I found 'MTB project' far superior for trails comparing to Trailforks; Also I use Trail Project app, etc;

In general I do not like outside content even paid one, while PB content quite good for most of the time;
Will see how it will change, I would assume in a year majority of audience will drop out and move to NSMB or similar


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Nick_M said:


> honestly despite big love for the PingBike, I found 'MTB project' far superior for trails comparing to Trailforks; Also I use Trail Project app, etc;


Riding today I'll give it a shot - I'm a fan.

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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

Pinkbike was already trash so good for them getting some money out of it.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Next thing you know Brian Park will be writing "Top 5" articles for Pinkbike :O


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

I should also point out that MTBR's owner sold to a large corporation and so far I haven't seen changes in good or bad. Interface is better, ads are about the same, owner involvement is minimal. So far so good.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

I really like Outside magazine. And PB has it's place.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Nick_M said:


> honestly despite big love for the PingBike, I found 'MTB project' far superior for trails comparing to Trailforks; Also I use Trail Project app, etc;
> 
> MTB project has big gaps in their maps where I live and places I travel to compared to TF. Honestly TF has been too comprehensive. Trail forks should be called "fuc the first rule of fight club." Of course strava's heat map killed that rule anyway so fuc it. Welcome kooks! Braid it out while you can! And don't forget to do your part and dumb down that tricky section so everyone can enjoy the ride!


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

slimat99 said:


> That's funny coming from someone in PA. Your biggest nat forest is like a greenway out west. I guess you can technically drown in a bathtub.


Oh man, you got that wrong. You ain't been lost until you've been turned around in a hardwood forest. Or maybe some of the monster paper company tracts up in WI/MI/MN. You can walk for days and not bump into anything.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

LMAO. Is it 300 feet or 500 feet to the nearest road?


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

On the plus side, your paid PB subscription might include free access to gymclimber.com


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> I should also point out that MTBR's owner sold to a large corporation and so far I haven't seen changes in good or bad. Interface is better, ads are about the same, owner involvement is minimal. So far so good.


That's because MTBR is like a tic on the dog's back compared to PB. This is a corporate buyout of the largest MTB media source.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slimat99 said:


> That's because MTBR is like a tic on the dog's back compared to PB. This is a corporate buyout of the largest MTB media source.


Just trying to be positive. I appreciate PB youtube as entertainment but don't appreciate Outside much so am a little concerned that they will lose that content quality. Hoping not.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nat said:


> There's always good old topo maps...


I like paper maps


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

D. Inoobinati said:


> LMAO. Is it 300 feet or 500 feet to the nearest road?


21,000 acres - most people who get lost in the woods are less than 3-5 miles from a main road.

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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Harold said:


> I like paper maps


And pay phones ? 

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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

TheNatureBoy said:


> And pay phones ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I miss being that detached.. daily.

Now I pretty much have to go backpacking to do so without people thinking I'm a nut case.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Harold said:


> I like paper maps


I used to buy USGS Quads and cut them up to include the area I was riding and laminate them with clear packing tape and shove them in my old drinking bladder for emergency access. However I also used to ride alone, outside of civilization, with a bladder, a cool tool, and maybe a powerbar for hours on end. I can't imagine riding without a means of communicating with others now but for decades did so alone and in unknown territory a lot.


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## vegen (Jan 2, 2006)

Plus VerticalScope has Treadmillforum too. Probably Outside will buy that next.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I hear rumblings that GAIA is close to releasing an Android Auto compatible map app. Might pay for the app once that happens.

But yes. I do like paper maps. For people who know how to use them, they show things you just won't get from any app.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> I miss being that detached.. daily.
> 
> Now I pretty much have to go backpacking to do so without people thinking I'm a nut case.


Very true - it started with pagers & beepers - cellphones have made us locked in 24-7.

I watched a motivational guy the other night explaining how he stays focused daily how he stays in great mental & physical shape.

His first piece of advice - " win the morning " get up early , walk , ride , lift whatever it is - shower - feed yourself / family --- then check your phone.
In other words don't you're email dictate your day off the bat.

It stuck with me

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

rockcrusher said:


> I used to buy USGS Quads and cut them up to include the area I was riding and laminate them with clear packing tape and shove them in my old drinking bladder for emergency access. However I also used to ride alone, outside of civilization, with a bladder, a cool tool, and maybe a powerbar for hours on end. I can't imagine riding without a means of communicating with others now but for decades did so alone and in unknown territory a lot.


my enjoyment of paper maps doesn't preclude an appreciation for the things that digital mapping/GPS offers that paper maps do not.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Harold said:


> I hear rumblings that GAIA is close to releasing an Android Auto compatible map app. Might pay for the app once that happens.
> 
> But yes. I do like paper maps. For people who know how to use them, they show things you just won't get from any app.


They also work if your phone is out of batteries or is broken in a crash. Though you have to plan ahead but still.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

spaightlabs said:


> &#8230;


I thought you were out.?


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

rockcrusher said:


> They also work if your phone is out of batteries or is broken in a crash. Though you have to plan ahead but still.


I also like paper maps which is also a way for me to cut down on screen time.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

spaightlabs said:


> Oh man, you got that wrong. You ain't been lost until you've been turned around in a hardwood forest. Or maybe some of the monster paper company tractsI up in WI/MI/MN. You can walk for days and not bump into anything.


I learned to ride in the 90's pisgah when many trails weren't signed and often not even on maps. Even pop trails like black mountain were just ribbons of loam in the undergrowth. I get what you're saying but the rockies are on a different level and not just in the size of the mountains. I also hiked the AT so I've walked across PA. I didn't do food drops because you cross paved roads constantly. I'm sure you have some big expanses in WI, MI, MN, but not PA.

Anyway, I'm just poking fun. I love some eastern mountain rooty woodland. I didn't mean to get in a pissing match over wild lands, but you simply can't compare public lands in the Appalachians to the west. it's like comparing a pond to an ocean.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> Just trying to be positive. I appreciate PB youtube as entertainment but don't appreciate Outside much so am a little concerned that they will lose that content quality. Hoping not.


I'm not trying to be negative or shi! on MTBR. Just being objective. A corporate buyout of the largest MTB media source is going to bring changes. It's all speculation but I think it's ignorant to think nothing is going to change.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

slimat99 said:


> I'm not trying to be negative or shi! on MTBR. Just being objective. A corporate buyout of the largest MTB media source is going to bring changes. It's all speculation but I think it's ignorant to think nothing is going to change.


If they screw it up someone else will come along and fill the void.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Didn't anyone else buy the lifetime TrailForks subscription a while back?


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## EatsDirt (Jan 20, 2014)

rockcrusher said:


> a cool tool


Ha, that just brought back memories!


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Didn't anyone else buy the lifetime TrailForks subscription a while back?


I did. As you know, it's a recurring annual fee, albeit, reduced 50% from the regular cost. I wonder now whether it's going to be "lifetime", and what the fee will be going forward. Not so sure they can't turn around and alter things however they wish. A change in ownership is good opportunity to roll out whatever they wish.

On a different note, there was a rumour that Garmin was in the process of attempting to purchase TrailForks. DCRainmaker, among others, had suggested that. Guess that ain't happening.


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## Dan Zulu (Jul 5, 2008)

rockcrusher said:


> Feel free to go to another site for political discussions. MTBR is not the place to grind your political axe. Seriously.


This is what I wish Outdoor followed . Stick to outdoor recreation and leave political articles (of either type) to political magazines.


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## TheNatureBoy (Aug 7, 2017)

Dan Zulu said:


> This is what I wish Outdoor followed . Stick to outdoor recreation and leave political articles (of either type) to political magazines.


This.

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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Outside magazine is a pile of liberal trash not worthy of picking up my dogs ass droppings with .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





TheNatureBoy said:


> > Dan Zulu said:
> > This is what I wish Outdoor followed . Stick to outdoor recreation and leave political articles (of either type) to political magazines.
> 
> 
> ...


I applaud your change of heart.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Hahahahahabahah


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Grodyman said:


> I didn't really like pink bike, too enduro focused. Now I will no longer visit the site as it will no doubt be endless leftist propaganda just like every other corporate tripe. Maybe they can target the teen Vogue demo.





rockcrusher said:


> Feel free to go to another site for political discussions. MTBR is not the place to grind your political axe. Seriously.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I just hope they don't screw up trail forks. I am fine with the current fee, but if they jack it up much, I'm out.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I kinda like PB, just have to try and ignore the comments. Sure are a lot of hard core riders in that group. Amazing how when I go to the bike park it is like 1 in 100 or more than can ride as well as the PB users all can.

I listen to the PB podcast though, so I avoid that. Entertaining listening to the interviews with RC as he is talking about the "little" town I live in (Norco).


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## norcalbike (Dec 17, 2004)

Way to ruin the thread, chuds.


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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

rockcrusher said:


> I used to buy USGS Quads and cut them up to include the area I was riding and laminate them with clear packing tape and shove them in my old drinking bladder for emergency access. However I also used to ride alone, outside of civilization, with a bladder, a cool tool, and maybe a powerbar for hours on end. I can't imagine riding without a means of communicating with others now but for decades did so alone and in unknown territory a lot.


Ahhhh the good old days. The only suspension we had was our arms and legs, there were no cell phones and if you didn't have a USGS map with you, you might spend the night outside if you guessed wrong on the way back.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

TheNatureBoy said:


> Change of heart ?
> What I said above stands .
> Outside was good until wokeism.
> I
> ...


Do yourself and the ones who want to discuss things here and in the future a favor and read up on the rules here on mtbr.
Pretty please with sugar and cream on top.

"MTBR is a family site so any NSFW content will be removed immediately and users warned/banned. This is also a political free zone(including Off-Camber) and all political posts will be removed."








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## spaightlabs (Dec 3, 2011)

acer66 said:


> I thought you were out.😁


 Man, I didn't know a weenus measuring contest about whose forest is worse to be lost in was political, but I guess I should have. Fine, I'm out on the forest conversation.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

slimat99 said:


> Anyway, I'm just poking fun. I love some eastern mountain rooty woodland. I didn't mean to get in a pissing match over wild lands, but you simply can't compare public lands in the Appalachians to the west. it's like comparing a pond to an ocean.


I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.

So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

spaightlabs said:


> Man, I didn't know a weenus measuring contest about whose forest is worse to be lost in was political, but I guess I should have. Fine, I'm out on the forest conversation.


I am lost reading your response. 😜


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Wait, so Outside bought Trailforks? 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> Didn't anyone else buy the lifetime TrailForks subscription a while back?


I did, but cancelled it the next day because it didn't work properly. I feel like their app works worse since going to a paid model.


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## retrofred (Jan 19, 2004)

I am amazed at how quickly people jump on the negative train before actually waiting and seeing what will come of the acquisition. Trailfork is a good tool and site, but I'd never pay for a subscription. I use All trails along with Trailfork and together work for me. 

Just my opinion and I'm sure I'll flack for saying it. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Cary said:


> I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.
> 
> So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


I had a similar realization in England. We flew in from the Desert SW where we would drive for 220 miles to ride in the high mountains in summer so it was cool, and landed in england. We had a paper map and some mapquest printed out, and judged our distances by size of the map, how many towns one would pass through, and general experience with traversing large cities etc.

We jumped in our car, reset the old brain to wrong side driving, and headed out for our first day of driving which was London, to the coast, to Wales. Based on our expectations it was going to be a days drive. We completed it in a couple of hours. At that point we realized we had really messed up our understandings of distance and had to completely rejigger our plans based on what we understood about distances in the UK vs the Southwest USA. Ended up driving the entire length of Britain (Birghton) and Scotland (Inverness) and back in the time we thought we might be able to drive the Scottish border areas (Newcastle).


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

That's a bitter sweet announcement. Optimistically, I'm happy the talent at Pinkbike now has room and capital to grow. The reality is, in a few years the Pinkbike I knew/know will be no longer. I've watched it happen with a lot of other rags. Eventually the almighty advertising dollars over ride quality content.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Cary said:


> I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.
> 
> So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


Totally. My perception of open space changed dramatically when I moved out west. If you're in PA you probably think BLM means black lives matter. It's so cute when an east coaster thinks their riding area is big. Hell we've got burn scars bigger than.... My Weenus is long!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

useless info said:


> I hope they don't mess it up or start charging more. Trailforks is the best and the fee amount was fine, especially with the lifetime discount if you signed up in the first months. MTB Project is garbage as far as I'm concerned but this could be a good opportunity for them to make it better and gain more support?


Worried about what they'll do to lifetimes. It was a bargin so I jumped on a lifetime.


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## hdave (Feb 9, 2005)

WOW - I just got back into MTB and Pink Bike was how I found a bike to buy and ride. Hope we can see some benefits... I LOVE trailforks. I would have been lost in woods without it. I have no issue paying $36 a year for it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Cary said:


> I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.
> 
> So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


lol...70 miles.

Try 20 miles. So many won't go 20 miles to do something they NEED to do. The whole - "my dog is dying, help me! no, I'm not going to drive 20 miles to take it to the ER" sort of attitude.

for me, a lot of it depends on where I'm going and when. there are certain places I'm not driving to get in an evening weekday ride. I'll end up spending just as much time sitting in traffic than pedaling. No, thx. there are other places I can ride where the ratio skews much farther towards riding. or evening post-ride food/brews. I'm going to pick some place close to the ride location or on the way home, rather than some place twice as far from my house as the trails.

within 2hrs of home, there's probably more trail than I'll ever be able to ride in my lifetime. that gives me trail within 4 states to choose from.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

slimat99 said:


> Totally. My perception of open space changed dramatically when I moved out west. If you're in PA you probably think BLM means black lives matter. It's so cute when an east coaster thinks their riding area is big. Hell we've got burn scars bigger than.... My Weenus is long!


Having lived in Oregon for several years in grad school, I still hear BLM and think Bureau of Land Management. In law we use delta for defendant in pie for plaintiff, but nearly 30 years after getting my undergrd in economics, I still see delta and think change, and see pie and think profit.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Delete


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

rockcrusher said:


> I had a similar realization in England. We flew in from the Desert SW where we would drive for 220 miles to ride in the high mountains in summer so it was cool, and landed in england. We had a paper map and some mapquest printed out, and judged our distances by size of the map, how many towns one would pass through, and general experience with traversing large cities etc.
> 
> We jumped in our car, reset the old brain to wrong side driving, and headed out for our first day of driving which was London, to the coast, to Wales. Based on our expectations it was going to be a days drive. We completed it in a couple of hours. At that point we realized we had really messed up our understandings of distance and had to completely rejigger our plans based on what we understood about distances in the UK vs the Southwest USA. Ended up driving the entire length of Britain (Birghton) and Scotland (Inverness) and back in the time we thought we might be able to drive the Scottish border areas (Newcastle).


Ha, had that happen in Germany. When you are used to a country that 3000 miles across and 1500 miles north to south, it seems strange that Germany is slightly smaller than California. Ironically, even though there is the autobahn, speeds are about the same, with the average speeds on the rural west coast highways in the 80-85 mph range (limited by people's willingness to get a ticket) and Germany about 85 mph (limited by people's willingness to pump extra gas into their tank at $10 a gallon 20 years ago, strangely lower now).


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Most people in the Phoenix metro are the same way. I occasionally sell bike parts on CL and consistently have people from the east valley asking me to ship stuff. By the time I drive to the post office and stand in line, I could have probably almost delivered it to them. It's weird.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Cary said:


> I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.
> 
> So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


A long time ago a guy I know, who was living in Denver at the time, got a call from his sister who had lived in Thailand her entire life. She came to the USA to visit him and some other relatives. He got a call from her one day, "Hey! We're in America! Can you come pick us up? We're in Pittsburgh!" Denver to Pittsburgh. That couldn't take more than a couple of hours driving, right?


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## Grodyman (Sep 29, 2016)

I don't think Pinkbike should charge any fees whatsoever, access to quality mountain biking information is a basic human right.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Nat said:


> A long time ago a guy I know, who was living in Denver at the time, got a call from his sister who had lived in Thailand her entire life. She came to the USA to visit him and some other relatives. He got a call from her one day, "Hey! We're in America! Can you come pick us up? We're in Pittsburgh!" Denver to Pittsburgh. That couldn't take more than a couple of hours driving, right?


My wife and I chatted with a gal out on a hiking trail in Norway, and she said she had extended family that lived in Minnesota. She said her and her husband had never been to the US, but were thinking of flying over to visit them and then renting a car to drive over to New York for a day to check it out.

I was like yeah, you better Google Map that before you commit lol.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

redux said:


> Oh well. It will be interesting to see who absorbs who in the pinkbike vs beta battle for existence. Pinkbike is doomed regardless due to the Wes Siler association, that man is poison.


can you elaborate? why is Pinkbike doomed?


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## palerider (Jul 15, 2004)

Only a matter of time before google buys outside.


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## IMeasure (Oct 5, 2020)

TwoTone said:


> Worried about what they'll do to lifetimes. It was a bargin so I jumped on a lifetime.


Yeah me too. It was a no-brainer. I'm confident that they will not toss out lifetime subscriptions, because in the long term the number of lifetime subscribers that got in during that small window of opportunity will probably be a tiny fraction compared to the total full fee paying subscribers in years to come.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

Some clarification may be in order...

Outside Magazine did not buy Pinkbike.
When (Boulder, CO based) Pocket Outdoor Media bought Outside Magazine and all the other web and cable crap, they changed their name to "Outside".
Outside Magazine is owned by the same company that now owns Pinkbike. They both now serve the same master. That master is Boulder based "Outside".

According to their board, Outside Brands is dedicated to serving the outdoor lifestyle needs of a wealthy, entitled class of consumer-driven outdoor posers.


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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

prj71 said:


> Outside magazine blows.


That was my first thought


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

prj71 said:


> It should be free since the MTB community made all the maps for them.
> 
> F**K TF and their subscription.


And they should provide the software that facilitates uploading those maps for free, and the servers that host those maps for free? I think it should have been expected that they would eventually start charging money to cover the costs of these things. It's either that or ads, and frankly I prefer a fee.

By the way, aren't all the maps still available for free on the web site?


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

D. Inoobinati said:


> According to their board, Outside Brands is dedicated to serving the outdoor lifestyle needs of a wealthy, entitled class of consumer-driven outdoor posers.


Shhh, that is their internal mission statement. Their outside one is much more flowerly and nebulous.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Picard said:


> can you elaborate? why is Pinkeye pooed?


Wash your hands.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

kpdemello said:


> And they should provide the software that facilitates uploading those maps for free, and the servers that host those maps for free? I think it should have been expected that they would eventually start charging money to cover the costs of these things. It's either that or ads, and frankly I prefer a fee.
> 
> By the way, aren't all the maps still available for free on the web site?


My understanding is that pjr71 is willing to pay for servers to host the maps for the rest of out of the goodness of his/her/they heart.


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## redux (May 25, 2020)

Picard said:


> can you elaborate? why is Pinkbike doomed?


Pinkbike and Beta essentially deliver a similar product to the same customer base. They'll remain independent for a while but it's only a matter of time before bean counters start looking at red on spread sheets and feel the need to reduce inefficiencies. Also, Pinkbike's active community and it's ability to sometimes directly interact with the staff in the comments section may take significant hit depending on how the paywall and business policies are applied. Then there's Wes, it's always politics and social justice BS with anything he's involved with long term. He rot's organizations from the inside out. Seeing how far Beta has managed to climb up it's own ass in such a short period of time doesn't give me hope for Pinkbike and their Canadian sensibilities.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Cary said:


> I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


I hear that. 180 miles is the round trip distance from Denver to Vail. 90 mile drive, then a day of skiing, then a 90 mile return trip on snowy/icy roads is normal. So many folks make the drive that the interstate gets jammed up regularly going in and out of Vail, and Vail's parking garages overflow so much that folks have to park on the frontage road.


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

Pinkbike is safe as long as people crash in time for Friday, and as long as the huck-to-flat guy doesn't break his ankles.


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## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Par for the course I guess. It's hard to think of any successful company that hasn't been bought out by a corporate giant.


I can think of one LOL


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

r-rocket said:


> I hear that. 180 miles is the round trip distance from Denver to Vail. 90 mile drive, then a day of skiing, then a 90 mile return trip on snowy/icy roads is normal. So many folks make the drive that the interstate gets jammed up regularly going in and out of Vail, and Vail's parking garages overflow so much that folks have to park on the frontage road.


I live on the East Coast. I only hope that some day I can be as awesome as you West Coasters.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

ljsmith said:


> I live on the East Coast. I only hope that some day I can be as awesome as you West Coasters.


Denver is considered West Coast now?
Sea levels must be pretty high right now! 😉


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

Sidewalk said:


> I kinda like PB, just have to try and ignore the comments. Sure are a lot of hard core riders in that group. Amazing how when I go to the bike park it is like 1 in 100 or more than can ride as well as the PB users all can.
> 
> I listen to the PB podcast though, so I avoid that. Entertaining listening to the interviews with RC as he is talking about the "little" town I live in (Norco).


IGNORE the comments?!! They're literally the best part of PB. "It's like reading a newspaper. 90% BS, but it's entertaining."

For real though, if they can keep PB focused on bikes, it may not be so bad... right?!

-DS


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

I find it very ironic that in this thread people are complaining about the comments on Pink Bike... r/selfawarewolves


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

redux said:


> Pinkbike and Beta essentially deliver a similar product to the same customer base. They'll remain independent for a while but it's only a matter of time before bean counters start looking at red on spread sheets and feel the need to reduce inefficiencies. Also, Pinkbike's active community and it's ability to sometimes directly interact with the staff in the comments section may take significant hit depending on how the paywall and business policies are applied. *Then there's Wes, it's always politics and social justice BS with anything he's involved with long term.* He rot's organizations from the inside out. Seeing how far Beta has managed to climb up it's own ass in such a short period of time doesn't give me hope for Pinkbike and their Canadian sensibilities.


Velonews introduced their "premium" option after the buyout, not offering a free version for those previously subscribed to the pulp magazine, and then offering a slew of the aforementioned content for free, with the more cycling specific content behind the paywall. I no longer log onto the site, and I've not renewed my subscription. Same may now happen with Peloton mag (but I certainly hope not). Hopefully the same pattern doesn't follow onto Pinkbike.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Harold said:


> lol...70 miles.
> 
> Try 20 miles. So many won't go 20 miles to do something they NEED to do. The whole - "my dog is dying, help me! no, I'm not going to drive 20 miles to take it to the ER" sort of attitude.
> 
> ...


The medical practice I work for in NY has 2 offices, literally 8 miles apart from each other. We have a ton of pts that will REFUSE to go to one office or the other. They will wait months longer to see a specific Dr in their desired office rather than drive 8 miles down the road.

I'm not talking calmly declining the other office. Throwing a tantrum at our front desk staff and acting like "how dare you" suggest they drive an extra 8 miles!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

FWIW I just got an email that Bikereg was purchased by Outside as well. Soon the outside will be property of Outside and they will update the terms of service


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Dan Zulu said:


> This is what I wish Outdoor followed . Stick to outdoor recreation and leave political articles (of either type) to political magazines.


I might be totally off base here since I never read Outdoor but with our current political split I'm not sure if they could avoid it. This is NOT finger pointing or political arguing, just pointing out recent actions taken.

Unfortunately politicians decide what's protected land and what isn't. As a media outlet geared toward enjoying the outdoors, national forests and nature in general I can understand why they might feel the pressure to get political when one "side" decides to remove millions of acres from national park/forest/monument designation. Then offer up that land for mining and drilling. Since politicians have control over this it seems reasonable for a media source about enjoying the outdoors would need to get political. As I said, I never read any of their magazines so maybe they go totally off the deep end for all I know instead of just sticking to what matters for outdoor recreation and conservation.

It would be great if all politicians would recognize the importance of our wild outdoor spaces and media sources wouldn't need to fight to find support from the voters to put in their magazines.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Fajita Dave said:


> I might be totally off base here since I never read Outdoor but with our current political split I'm not sure if they could avoid it. This is NOT finger pointing or political arguing, just pointing out recent actions taken.
> 
> Unfortunately politicians decide what's protected land and what isn't. As a media outlet geared toward enjoying the outdoors, national forests and nature in general I can understand why they might feel the pressure to get political when one "side" decides to remove millions of acres from national park/forest/monument designation. Then offer up that land for mining and drilling. Since politicians have control over this it seems reasonable for a media source about enjoying the outdoors would need to get political. As I said, I never read any of their magazines so maybe they go totally off the deep end for all I know instead of just sticking to what matters for outdoor recreation and conservation.
> 
> It would be great if all politicians would recognize the importance of our wild outdoor spaces and media sources wouldn't need to fight to find support from the voters to put in their magazines.


They should get political and push for wilderness access. Wishful thinking on my part because I know the popular opinion with all non bike people is we don't belong. Of course E bikes are cock blocking us anyway. I will eat all my words and praise outside if they use their money and influence to get us in. I'm quite selfish and will overlook all their BS if I can ride wilderness.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FrankS29 said:


> The medical practice I work for in NY has 2 offices, literally 8 miles apart from each other. We have a ton of pts that will REFUSE to go to one office or the other. They will wait months longer to see a specific Dr in their desired office rather than drive 8 miles down the road.
> 
> I'm not talking calmly declining the other office. Throwing a tantrum at our front desk staff and acting like "how dare you" suggest they drive an extra 8 miles!


that's pretty insane. I've seen similar. and then, there are also people who will drive multiple hours farther than is necessary in order to see a specific doctor that they trust (for themselves or their pet). based on what I've seen, I couldn't link a person's apparent income to that decision in the slightest, either.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

slimat99 said:


> They should get political and push for wilderness access....I'm quite selfish and will overlook all their BS if I can ride wilderness.


But you and I will have words at the trailhead making sure you don't.


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## Tinshield (Aug 1, 2007)

Lots of talk about TF but I am curious to see what they do with the Buy/Sell section.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

acer66 said:


> Denver is considered West Coast now?
> Sea levels must be pretty high right now! 😉


"...learn to swim..."
-Maynard James Keenan


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

D. Inoobinati said:


> But you and I will have words at the trailhead making sure you don't.


What would you say? "Hey pal, you don't belong in there even though you're allowed by law?"


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

I guess I'd say, "Lots of things are allowed by law including mink farms, child pageants, medical bankruptcy, eMtbs....that doesn't make it right. There's so little wilderness left. Please do your part to keep wilderness 'wild', and keep your bike out."


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I guess I'd say, "Lots of things are allowed by law including mink farms, child pageants, medical bankruptcy, eMtbs....that doesn't make it right. There's so little wilderness left. Please do your part to keep wilderness 'wild', and keep your bike out."


Maybe there is little left where you live, but out here wilderness, monuments, and national parks are everywhere.

A place like Escalante is huge. There is no reason why there could not be hundreds of miles of single track available for riding around the red rock. There are already dirt roads through the area. That does not mean MTB use would be allowed everywhere in Escalante, but that type of distance would be tiny part of the total space.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

There's wilderness literally out my back door, here in Albuquerque. If bikes were allowed in it, there'd be an endless parade of shuttles to the summit, and downhilling on popular hiking trails. Then there'd be calls for additional trails and poof...."wilderness" gone.

Consider yourself extremely lucky to have that much unmechanized country where you live.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Maybe there is little left where you live, but out here wilderness, monuments, and national parks are everywhere.
> 
> A place like Escalante is huge. There is no reason why there could not be hundreds of miles of single track available for riding around the red rock. There are already dirt roads through the area. That does not mean MTB use would be allowed everywhere in Escalante, but that type of distance would be tiny part of the total space.


The presence of bikes or not definitely doesn't make or break "wilderness". I've seen Wilderness areas all across the spectrum. The ones where I live now tend to have crowding issues as it is from folks who just want to hike them. A permit system to keep crowds down makes a lot of sense for crowded Wilderness areas. I see traffic levels in general as a bigger issue than what users are out there. I think what makes more sense from a management perspective is to look at trail density and use levels in the context of management goals. Frontcountry areas should permit higher trail densities and use levels. The more "backcountry" a place gets, the lower trail densities should be (with bigger distances involved) and the more land managers should consider permitting systems to limit the number of users at a given time.

I used to live fairly close to some Wilderness areas in east TX, too. hiked in one, and the "trail" I was using was a closed county road that was still paved. I found trash there dating back to the 50's or 60's or so. I understand that there were habitat conservation reasons why ppl wanted that area protected (longleaf pine savannah restoration), but I don't think "Wilderness" was a proper land designation to accomplish that goal.

And I also spent a summer in the town of Escalante, UT working for the USFS as a wildlife biologist. There's a LOT of area there that's far more wilderness than anything I've seen in the east.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Tinshield said:


> Lots of talk about TF but I am curious to see what they do with the Buy/Sell section.


If something happens to it, maybe MTBR will step up and finally do something usefull with it's classified section


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

TwoTone said:


> If something happens to it, maybe MTBR will step up and finally do something usefull with it's classified section


No ****. MTBR classified section sucks balls.


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

Harold said:


> I hear rumblings that GAIA is close to releasing an Android Auto compatible map app. Might pay for the app once that happens.
> 
> But yes. I do like paper maps. For people who know how to use them, they show things you just won't get from any app.


There is no difference btw paper And electronic maps except auto gps positioning on the latest and compas driven guestimate positioning by person on first;

All paper map are basically electronic prior to be printed, no one draw maps manually using triangular and starts positioning

Cheers


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nick_M said:


> There is no difference btw paper And electronic maps except auto gps positioning on the latest and compas driven guestimate positioning by person on first;
> 
> All paper map are basically electronic prior to be printed, no one draw maps manually using triangular and starts positioning
> 
> Cheers


wtf? English, much?

so, how large of a screen are you carrying around with you that lets you see exactly the same things at the same scale as a foldable paper map? Where do you keep it?

Makes me wonder about the sort of background you have that qualifies you to tell me that my preferences in the uses of different map products is basically trash.

I've submitted quite a number of trails to digital mapping apps. Mostly mtbproject, but also some to trailforks. I've used survey-grade gps equipment and consumer grade gps equipment since right about the time that selective availability was turned off. I've been using digital mapping software since ArcView 3.1, and currently have my own personal ArcMap license on my home pc, which I have used to produce physical maps. These include maps for trailhead kiosks, event flyer route maps and cuesheets, and large format foldable paper trail maps. I also analyzed 30yrs of satellite imagery with yet another digital mapping program to quantify changes in land cover over that time period. I also teach map and compass skills for work.

In spite of all that, I still like paper maps that I can hold in my hand, and I still prefer to use them in certain situations. As I said before, it does not mean that I don't use map apps. They have their own (different) advantages.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.

If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

prj71 said:


> I don't see an advantage of a paper map.


just because you can't see one doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

the biggest advantage I see is that a physical map gives you a wider view of the area in question (all at once!) at a detail level that lets you plan. kinda important when the trail network covers a larger area and you need to make adjustments to your route plan. more important in backcountry environments than in frontcountry trail networks, true.

good trail markings do reduce the need for maps, but I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist? even if there is some mythical place that puts maps on a post at every intersection, it's still a physical hard copy of the map.

on the right kind of media, a physical map can be exceptionally durable. I have paper maps that I've carried in a pack for years. I have trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, too. that's a pretty slick option if the trail network fits well on it.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

D. Inoobinati said:


> There's wilderness literally out my back door, here in Albuquerque. If bikes were allowed in it, there'd be an endless parade of shuttles to the summit, and downhilling on popular hiking trails. Then there'd be calls for additional trails and poof...."wilderness" gone.
> 
> Consider yourself extremely lucky to have that much unmechanized country where you live.


I have a ton of trails, both legal and illegal, where you can ride for hours and hardly see anyone. Just because you CAN ride your bike out there doesn't mean everyone will. Even a popular local shuttle spot isn't that busy with bikes (paved road that parallels the trail), and it is also a popular hiking trail too. The sky hasn't fallen.



prj71 said:


> I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.
> 
> If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.


That is typically something I will see on small trail systems, not something I often see in large trail networks.



Harold said:


> good trail markings do reduce the need for maps, but I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist? even if there is some mythical place that puts maps on a post at every intersection, it's still a physical hard copy of the map.


There is an area in Big Bear (southern California) that has a basic color coded map (for difficulty rating) at all intersection, for the more popular trails. Probably handy for the majority of tourists who aren't going to do more than an hour or two. But once you get past that popular area, you are on your own. And you can definitely get yourself into trouble with a wrong turn.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Harold said:


> just because you can't see one doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
> 
> the biggest advantage I see is that a physical map gives you a wider view of the area in question (all at once!) at a detail level that lets you plan. kinda important when the trail network covers a larger area and you need to make adjustments to your route plan. more important in backcountry environments than in frontcountry trail networks, true.
> 
> ...


I totally appreciate a good paper map.


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

Harold said:


> I have trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, too. that's a pretty slick option if the trail network fits well on it.


That is pretty cool. Sounds like something a local mtb group could sell or give out to members. You could use a little blue dot made of velcro, to pinpoint your location.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

walkerwalker said:


> That is pretty cool. Sounds like something a local mtb group could sell or give out to members. You could use a little blue dot made of velcro, to pinpoint your location.


the ones I have were sold by different Over The Edge shops. One in Sedona, and the other in Hurricane, UT. pretty tight weave on the fabric....I think velcro would have a hard time with it. they advertise them as being something you can clean your glasses with, or staunch bleeding. lol.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

MyDadSucks said:


> its better than mtbproject but it is definitely not 'the best'


Whats the best in your opinion? Curious of what I'm missing out on&#8230;


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Monty219 said:


> Whats the best in your opinion? Curious of what I'm missing out on&#8230;


Also curious. I used MTBproject for a while and was not that impressed, particularly because the maps were woefully incomplete. I used ViewRanger for a while because the maps were better. But then Trailforks overtook it with both the completeness of the maps and the additional trail beta. I haven't seen anything out there that's better.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

rockcrusher said:


> They also work if your phone is out of batteries or is broken in a crash. Though you have to plan ahead but still.


I was once semi-relying on a phone app for navigation while riding out of state (west VA). I got so sweaty from the humidity everything was too wet and i could no longer use my touch screen phone. There were a few unknown intersections and ghost trails. Good thing for my reasonably developed mapless navigation skills.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

I am sure there were a lot of similar comments about MTBR when VerticalScope took over. Unfortunately, this is a trend in this industry with the independents being bought up.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

r-rocket said:


> I hear that. 180 miles is the round trip distance from Denver to Vail. 90 mile drive, then a day of skiing, then a 90 mile return trip on snowy/icy roads is normal. So many folks make the drive that the interstate gets jammed up regularly going in and out of Vail, and Vail's parking garages overflow so much that folks have to park on the frontage road.


Its so crowded people have to park on the front range!


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## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

kapusta said:


> I totally appreciate a good paper map.


Me too.

- I find it really hard for two people to look at a phone-based map at the same time on sunny days. Too much glare and too small a screen.

- I prefer a much wider field of view when I'm on longer rides with lots of intersections. Scrolling around to figure out how many turns to make in which directions is a hassle.

- My only phone is the one my job pays for so I prefer to keep it tucked away in my pack. A smallish paper map doesn't bang on my thigh when I keep it in my riding shorts.

They all have their places though.


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## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

Harold said:


> I can't recall the last place I've been that put maps at every intersection. does that kind of place even exist?


Moab and some trails at Hyalite Reservoir immediately come to mind.


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## ransom208 (Mar 31, 2021)

prj71 said:


> I don't see an advantage of a paper map. On my phone I can locate my exact locaton via GPS and I can pan and zoom around the map to see anything that I want just like a paper map. Also don't have to worry about carrying around a paper map in the pocket that eventually gets torn up, crunched up and unreadable in sections.
> 
> If a trail system is done correctly...kioks with maps at intersections etc. then you don't even need paper or phone maps.


somebody does not ride the backcountry. 
I have a 100 mile float trip in a month. paper maps lets me see the big picture, coupled with the gps, i know where i am and what is around me.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I like paperx


rton20s said:


> "...learn to swim..."
> -Maynard James Keenan


Who would listen to such a TooL?😉


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

We keep paper maps in our cars. Too many times GPS views are too limiting.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I am in the camp of paper maps are a needed backup. I have had to rely on them to use forest roads when main roads are closed. I have had to fall back on them when GPS is not giving a clear view or alternative nearby trails or needing to change a route mid ride. I can map a route out on a big computer screen, but can’t on a little screen, especially when someone is hurt and time matters. With a paper map, I can quickly ascertain where I am and the most efficient way to safety. 

Then again, I always take more water than I expect to need, a foil space blanket, and a flint when I ride in the back country. Hopefully I never need them, but if I do, they are well worth the very small weight and space penalty of carrying them.


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## alex-henson (May 6, 2016)

Well certainly OT at this point but....... I like paper maps because they're not a freaking screen!


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

FrankS29 said:


> The medical practice I work for in NY has 2 offices, literally 8 miles apart from each other. We have a ton of pts that will REFUSE to go to one office or the other. They will wait months longer to see a specific Dr in their desired office rather than drive 8 miles down the road.
> 
> I'm not talking calmly declining the other office. Throwing a tantrum at our front desk staff and acting like "how dare you" suggest they drive an extra 8 miles!


I see what you're saying but that's slightly misleading...An extra 8 miles in Eastern Suffolk County or somewhere Upstate is much different than 8 miles in the lower Eastside.
I'd like to think that PB stays true to its' core but after seeing how velonews changed I don't have high hopes.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Harold said:


> the ones I have were sold by different Over The Edge shops. One in Sedona, and the other in Hurricane, UT. pretty tight weave on the fabric....I think velcro would have a hard time with it. they advertise them as being something you can clean your glasses with, or staunch bleeding. lol.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

D. Inoobinati said:


> I guess I'd say, "Lots of things are allowed by law including mink farms, child pageants, medical bankruptcy, eMtbs....that doesn't make it right. There's so little wilderness left. Please do your part to keep wilderness 'wild', and keep your bike out."


Wilderness is far from pristine where I live or anywhere I've visited. Horses, free range sheep and cows. Adding bikes wouldn't change anything in regards to environmental impacts. Gated roads, and or large roadless areas will prevent shuttling and only those that want to earn their turns will really go backpacker deep into the backcountry. We can have bike access without changing anything "wild" about what we call wilderness in this country. Not sure where you live but here in CO we have 42 wilderness areas. Millions of aces! It's pretty silly ranchers can run sheep and cows on horseback but local's can't pedal a bike around? It makes no sense. If we were talking strict wilderness where nothing but walking was allowed I get your point but that's not what "wilderness" is in USA. If you want to talk about protecting some areas from all use other than foot traffic I can't get on board with that, but banning bikes in wilderness as wilderness stands these days is stupid.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mtnbkrmike said:


> View attachment 1939186
> View attachment 1939187


exactly


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Harold said:


> exactly


I always seem to pick up some useful souvenirs along the way. That was certainly one.

I always try to carry paper/microfibre as a backup to TF. It will be even more important now after Outside reads my comments here and on PB. Lmao. One guy on PB says his TF subscription was cancelled last night. Probably not true but hey - who knows what will happen now&#8230;


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

D. Inoobinati said:


> There's wilderness literally out my back door, here in Albuquerque. If bikes were allowed in it, there'd be an endless parade of shuttles to the summit, and downhilling on popular hiking trails. Then there'd be calls for additional trails and poof...."wilderness" gone.
> 
> Consider yourself extremely lucky to have that much unmechanized country where you live.


And that's why wilderness access would be state by state, area by area thing. Sorry to hear you're against access. I have zero confidence we'll get in because as a community we are split on this, and E bikes. You will get your way I'm sure, and will continue to drool over endless mountains I can't ride. Before this whole shi! house burns down from global warming I want to ride some real backcountry! Is that too much to ask? We have much bigger fish to fry when talking about the environment than worrying about bikes in "wilderness".


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

prj71 said:


> No ****. MTBR classified section sucks balls.


Right. It was good 20 years ago. PB's buy sell is a jewel. I've sold tons and bought tons. It will be a real bummer if it goes to fees. I'll pay eBay fees before PB fees. At least with eBay I don't have to say "no, i don't want to trade for your x box".


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

Harold said:


> wtf? English, much?
> 
> so, how large of a screen are you carrying around with you that lets you see exactly the same things at the same scale as a foldable paper map? Where do you keep it?
> 
> ...


Phone have zoom in or zoom out features, download maps and build in gps, background 10 years of competitive orienteering (paper map and compass)

Cheers


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

mtnbkrmike said:


> View attachment 1939186
> View attachment 1939187


I downloaded these images to my phone so I can use your paper maps.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

r-rocket said:


> I downloaded these images to my phone so I can use your paper maps.


&#8230;microfibre.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

mtnbkrmike said:


> &#8230;microfibre.


Easy trick: Get your most important maps tattooed so you can't lose them.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Monty219 said:


> Easy trick: Get your most important maps tattooed so you can't lose them.


If you combine it with branding, it is like a 3D topo map.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

SkiTalk'er said:


> If you combine it with branding, it is like a 3D topo map.


I recently "earned" a partial disc rotor branding, just need to figure out which map it best matches.


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

Monty219 said:


> I recently "earned" a partial disc rotor branding, just need to figure out which map it best matches.


"Friends don't let friends lick hot brake rotors."


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nick_M said:


> Phone have zoom in or zoom out features, download maps and build in gps, background 10 years of competitive orienteering (paper map and compass)
> 
> Cheers


I still don't think your background qualifies you to tell me my preference in this matter is trash. or anyone's preference.

so how much of a trail system can you see if you zoom in on your phone? how much detail do you see when you zoom out to see the trail system? how much area does your phone screen let you look at at once before the whole trail system gets smooshed together? you simply cannot see it all at the same time from a phone screen. maybe if I dragged my 42" widescreen monitor from my desktop computer into the field. but even still, that's smaller than most foldable large format paper maps. with a quality paper map, I see all that I need to, without extra fiddling. especially in the sweaty southeast where phone screens like to ignore your touches or exaggerate them. or in bad lighting conditions where you can't see the screen. or you're trying to work with a group as mentioned earlier.

I have gone back and forth over using maps digitally or in print over the years through work and recreation. sometimes I don't have a choice in the matter. especially for work. but regardless of the extra tools digital devices bring, there are still things that paper maps do better.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Can we get back to complaining about Pink Bike? Friday Fails is late and I may have to actually work now. Literally the worst thing ever.


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

fly4130 said:


> Can we get back to complaining about Pink Bike? Friday Fails is late and I may have to actually work now. Literally the worst thing ever.


Exactly. Where is FRIDAY FAIL?


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Loll said:


> Exactly. Where is FRIDAY FAIL?


It's already behind a paywall...


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Loll said:


> Exactly. Where is FRIDAY FAIL?


CANCELED!!! The new overload can't have any footage suggesting that mountain biking can occasionally be dangerous. It might hurt their bottom line.

_Pure non serious speculation with no intent to cause harm_


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/c/pinkbike/videos


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

One more blissful medicated moment...


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I hope pink bike being sold is somewhere in that video.


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## Nick_M (Jan 16, 2015)

Harold said:


> I still don't think your background qualifies you to tell me my preference in this matter is trash. or anyone's preference.
> 
> so how much of a trail system can you see if you zoom in on your phone? how much detail do you see when you zoom out to see the trail system? how much area does your phone screen let you look at at once before the whole trail system gets smooshed together? you simply cannot see it all at the same time from a phone screen. maybe if I dragged my 42" widescreen monitor from my desktop computer into the field. but even still, that's smaller than most foldable large format paper maps. with a quality paper map, I see all that I need to, without extra fiddling. especially in the sweaty southeast where phone screens like to ignore your touches or exaggerate them. or in bad lighting conditions where you can't see the screen. or you're trying to work with a group as mentioned earlier.
> 
> I have gone back and forth over using maps digitally or in print over the years through work and recreation. sometimes I don't have a choice in the matter. especially for work. but regardless of the extra tools digital devices bring, there are still things that paper maps do better.


I did not not tell anyone to use or not use anything in this thread , I just said that either printed or digital map allows users to achieve same results ;

On Topic side - Merging of the company typically takes 3-9 month, depending on the size;

So we can expect PB content till NY

Cheers


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## Anchorless (May 15, 2008)

slimat99 said:


> Wilderness is far from pristine where I live or anywhere I've visited. Horses, free range sheep and cows. Adding bikes wouldn't change anything in regards to environmental impacts. Gated roads, and or large roadless areas will prevent shuttling and only those that want to earn their turns will really go backpacker deep into the backcountry. We can have bike access without changing anything "wild" about what we call wilderness in this country. Not sure where you live but here in CO we have 42 wilderness areas. Millions of aces! It's pretty silly ranchers can run sheep and cows on horseback but local's can't pedal a bike around? It makes no sense. If we were talking strict wilderness where nothing but walking was allowed I get your point but that's not what "wilderness" is in USA. If you want to talk about protecting some areas from all use other than foot traffic I can't get on board with that, but banning bikes in wilderness as wilderness stands these days is stupid.


Wrong, but at this point the discussion is ideological anyway, so why bother?

At the end of the day, open up the Wilderness Act to revisions at your own peril. I'm absolutely certain the GOP will gut it completely if we start to go down that road.


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## useless info (Nov 19, 2019)

ransom208 said:


> somebody does not ride the backcountry.
> I have a 100 mile float trip in a month. paper maps lets me see the big picture, coupled with the gps, i know where i am and what is around me.


Just to be clear. My wilderness is bigger than all your wilderness adventures combined. I don't use a map, period, because I'm a man. I have a huger trip coming up and I'll be getting all the trailhead at the trailhead, which you could never find because it's not on any map.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

useless info said:


> Just to be clear. My wilderness is bigger than all your wilderness adventures combined. I don't use a map, period, because I'm a man. I have a huger trip coming up and I'll be getting all the trailhead at the trailhead, which you could never find because it's not on any map.


Funniest thing in this thread. Thanks.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Nick_M said:


> I did not not tell anyone to use or not use anything in this thread , I just said that either printed or digital map allows users to achieve same results ;


this defies logic. they are different media with different advantages and disadvantages. they're not identical.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Anchorless said:


> Wrong, but at this point the discussion is ideological anyway, so why bother?
> 
> At the end of the day, open up the Wilderness Act to revisions at your own peril. I'm absolutely certain the GOP will gut it completely if we start to go down that road.


Wrong? Maybe you don't have free range livestock, horses, and pack animals in your wilderness areas but I do. In what world does it makes sense to allow those things but not bikes? My point is there are plenty of wilderness areas that are far from protected islands that would no longer be pristine if bikes were allowed. Wilderness areas would be better protected if bikes were allowed and free range, horses, and pack animals were banned. Last I heard bikes don't breed invasive species, pollute our water and compete with native wildlife.


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## Shinkers (Feb 5, 2014)

slimat99 said:


> Wrong? Maybe you don't have free range livestock, horses, and pack animals in your wilderness areas but I do. In what world does it makes sense to allow those things but not bikes? My point is there are plenty of wilderness areas that are far from protected islands that would no longer be pristine if bikes were allowed. Wilderness areas would be better protected if bikes were allowed and free range, horses, and pack animals were banned. Last I heard bikes don't breed invasive species, pollute our water and compete with native wildlife.


I guess I would say that perhaps rather than pushing to allow bikes into these places that allow livestock, horses, and pack animals we should be looking at how to get the livestock, horses, and pack animals out and leave it at that.

Even without wilderness access I'm not really wanting for new trails. New stuff is getting built all of the time (around here at least) and I'm starting to think that a lot of the pro-bike-wilderness people want the access 'just because'.

I really believe that we need to have a few places that people don't have access too aside from using their two feet. We don't need to be able to ride our bikes everywhere.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

The comments on PB were pretty good usually.... Other than that didn't spend much time there

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

my pinkbike bookmark goes directly to the buy/sell page. I wasn't aware they had articles, reviews, or a forum until I read this thread.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> LMAO. Is it 300 feet or 500 feet to the nearest road?


I'm from PA. GO STEELERS! It is possible to die in the forest but if you have a map the trails eventually intersect a road and you're fine. But, getting cocky can still hurt you, bad.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

slimat99 said:


> Yeah, there was a time when they put out legit content but that was a long time ago. PB will never be the same. Corporate giants don't buy into niche sports unless they see big money on the horizon. Outside will milk MTB media for all it's worth.


No, I quit reading Outside years ago because anything they reviewed was usually some yuppie-type, over-priced, over-hyped widget or clothing that really wasn't that good........sad thing is, I just bought a Pinkbike jersey for fall / winter / spring riding before they sold out to Outside - I hope the money went to some good beer and not Outside's pockets...........


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

pinkbike traffic metrics on steady decline
lots of sites are on decline


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

Then it's the perfect time to cash out from that chart LOL


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

mr_chrome said:


> No, I quit reading Outside years ago because anything they reviewed was usually some yuppie-type, over-priced, over-hyped widget or clothing that really wasn't that good........sad thing is, I just bought a Pinkbike jersey for fall / winter / spring riding before they sold out to Outside - I hope the money went to some good beer and not Outside's pockets...........


So happy I didn't buy any PB swag.


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## flying bison (Aug 3, 2014)

Cary said:


> I learned that space and distance are viewed very differently on the east coast than the west coast (and presumably the Midwest) when flying to a wedding in Pittsburgh about 20 years ago. Our flight was delayed and we were stuck in Cleveland, Ohio, with no flights until the next day. Based on the tiny little map on airplane napkin, Cleveland and Pittsburgh didn't look far (remember no portable internet then). I started to ask people how far away Pittsburgh was. I was told far. I asked how many miles, nobody could answer. I asked how many hours and finally found someone that said four or so.
> 
> So we rented a car and drove. Guess how far it actually was?!!! 135 miles. I learned that day that people on the east coast view far as anything over an hour away by car or more than about 70 miles. On the West Coast (and presumably the Midwest) far starts at 200+ miles. Heck, we don't bat an eye at day tripping a ride that is 180 miles each way.


This has to be the most absurd assumptions I've ever heard and isn't the rule. We don't view 200 miles as much let alone 70, in fact people often drive 4-5 hours from NYC to Vermont just to ski and drive back in a day. Today, no direct airline service exists between Cleveland and Pittsburgh just to clue you into how little profit can be made off of that route, because its such a short drive.


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## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

I hope Pinkbike does not become Mountain Bike Action.


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## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

Where’s DirtRag when we need them.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

There's just so much detailed free content out there that I'm surprised pay sites can stay in business.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Ailuropoda said:


> There's just so much detailed free content out there that I'm surprised pay sites can stay in business.


Ironic as you post on a free site.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Ironic as you post on a free site.


Wait!
What?
A buddy* of mine convinced me that he cuts me a great deal when he lets me use his mtbr account for 20 bucks a month.

* former that is.


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## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

RSAmerica said:


> Where's DirtRag when we need them.


"Do you know the best way to get a million bucks in the bike media industry? Start with two million."


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Outside CEO to address cycling industry about Pinkbike, Cyclingtips, and Trailforks acquisitions


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I’m wondering if all my ride videos that I hosted on PinkBike over the years will now be vaporized.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

genny1 said:


> Outside CEO to address cycling industry about Pinkbike, Cyclingtips, and Trailforks acquisitions


I wonder what the follow up information will look like after the zoom meeting. Weird format for releasing information.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Monty219 said:


> I wonder what the follow up information will look like after the zoom meeting. Weird format for releasing information.


Apparently Thurston is a Grade A knob. I ain't paying to get behind a paywall, and I have been there from the beginning. Who knows though. Maybe the whole idea will turn out to be brilliant.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Hmmm. Link doesn't work now and post has been taken down by Outside apparently. A cached paragraph of the release still turns up on a Google search:

"This Thursday, Sept. 23, Outside CEO Robin Thurston will address the industry in an open conversation about his company's acquisitions of the brands, and what the change means for businesses and consumers in the cycling market."

The withdrawn release had included a link that allowed people to register to attend the Zoom session. The release had just been posted this week.

Weird. If it has been cancelled, wonder why.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

genny1 said:


> Hmmm. Link doesn't work now and post has been taken down by Outside apparently. A cached paragraph of the release still turns up on a Google search:
> 
> "This Thursday, Sept. 23, Outside CEO Robin Thurston will address the industry in an open conversation about his company's acquisitions of the brands, and what the change means for businesses and consumers in the cycling market."
> 
> ...


Well they could have maxed out meeting capacity so just took the sign up link down. But that doesn't mean I'm not still highly skeptical of this acquisition. I don't blame the creator of pink bike for selling out. Good for him (seriously, not sarcastic). Im just not too interested in Outside publications so my visits to PB and CT will be a lot more limited than in the past.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Monty219 said:


> Well they could have maxed out meeting capacity so just took the sign up link down. But that doesn't mean I'm not still highly skeptical of this acquisition. I don't blame the creator of pink bike for selling out. Good for him (seriously, not sarcastic). Im just not too interested in Outside publications so my visits to PB and CT will be a lot more limited than in the past.


That's possible I suppose, but seems like they would have left the press release up and just closed registration rather than wiped the press release altogether. To engage in some speculation, I found it odd that Pinkbike had not posted anything on the site about a presentation by its CEO about its future. They had the guy on a PB podcast and were preaching "transparency." Maybe either Outside CEO guy blindsided PB staff with rolling out his vision publicly this week and backed off to lay better internal groundwork, or maybe they reconsidered having it as a Zoom meeting with an "open conversation" for fear of attracting negative pinkers into the show.

Again, just speculation. I imagine CEO guy will either go ahead with it today despite pulling down the PR announcement or will reschedule/reformulate the rollout. We'll see.


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## nayr497 (Nov 9, 2011)

Cycling Tips was one of the only roadie-focused sites I frequented at this point. Not thinking it's a good sign that they've been swallowed up.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

User on PB posted direct link to registration for the webinar derived from cached press release:









Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Cycling Industry Webinar. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.


Join Outside CEO Robin Thurston for a private conversation about recent acquisitions in the cycling market and what they mean for your company and customers. Robin will share his vision and plans for building a new type of interactive community with unparalleled resources for active living...




zoom.us





So I guess it is all systems go.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

genny1 said:


> User on PB posted direct link to registration for the webinar derived from cached press release:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eagerly awaiting your update!!!


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Eagerly awaiting your update!!!


Ha! Well, I joined late and left early, but by "popular" demand then, here are a few takeaways -- all just imo of course:

Backroom Pinkbike: PB, and by extension its users, are being integrated into a very sophisticated digital marketing platform, with an end goal of "curating" and "personalizing" our online experiences to guide us to the products of Outside and their advertisers. Through Pinkbike (or whatever Outside platform someone enters the ecosystem in through a "single sign-in" account), Outside and their advertisers want to direct our eyeballs into their ecosystem and then empty our wallets.  No surprise there.

The presentation seemed directed mostly at advertisers, and there was substantial marketing talk about syndication, cross-vertical and cross-platform marketing, affiliate commerce, incubators, venture capital, and collaboration with brands to create content.

Oh, and did I mention "curation" and "personalization"? Outside promises lots of curation and personalization of our online and real-world experiences.

Front-facing PB: There will be content headed behind a paywall. Again, no surprise there. There was a statement that the plan is for least 50% of the content to remain free indefinitely. User generated content will remain free (which imo is not a concession, of course UGC provided freely to PB should be freely accessible). No such assurances on PB-generated content.

It sounds like PB Academy is headed to Outside TV, with perhaps the day of release being free access and then behind the Outside TV paywall after the first day.

My speculation that maybe the PB staff was blindsided by this presentation was naive and , in retrospect, laughable. PB people participated in the presentation and are, not surprisingly, fully onboard the Outside mothership. If PB was still its own, relatively little corner of the internet pre-acquisition (and it was probably more than that), it's now part of Outside's much larger, turbocharged neighborhood of sticky, digital, data-driven, marketing and sales focused enterprise.

Again, all just as I heard it, with some personal opinions thrown in.

(Edit: I forgot to mention, they are all-in on e-bikes)


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

genny1 said:


> Ha! Well, I joined late and left early, but by "popular" demand then, here are a few takeaways -- all just imo of course:
> 
> Backroom Pinkbike: PB, and by extension its users, are being integrated into a very sophisticated digital marketing platform, with an end goal of "curating" and "personalizing" our online experiences to guide us to the products of Outside and their advertisers. Through Pinkbike (or whatever Outside platform someone enters the ecosystem in through a "single sign-in" account), Outside and their advertisers want to direct our eyeballs into their ecosystem and then empty our wallets.  No surprise there.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Some surprising, and some not.

Nothing has changed at my end. Biking is a critical part of my life, and has been for well over 2 decades. I have been with PB from the word go. It's been a material part of my biking existence. I feel so fortunate to have been able to enjoy it as much as I have over the years.

I am not onside the new format. I guess one could say that I am "Outside" of it. I think they are naive to think that they will retain the PB faithful - who made PB what it is. Or was.

It's been one helluva run though. What a blast it's been over the years.

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide that summary. Super appreciated.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

As long as they don't f with TF and classifies (HINT MTBR- makes yours actually useful) then oh well on the demise of PB. I surely won't pay.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

TwoTone said:


> As long as they don't f with TF and classifies (HINT MTBR- makes yours actually useful) then oh well on the demise of PB. I surely won't pay.


When it was all announced I deleted all my content on pinkbike and my account there. Have not been back to the site since.

I do miss browsing their classified ads, but the money has gone towards new stuff for ski season so that's a win.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

006_007 said:


> When it was all announced I deleted all my content on pinkbike and my account there. Have not been back to the site since.
> 
> I do miss browsing their classified ads, but the money has gone towards new stuff for ski season so that's a win.


Well there isn't as good a place as far as I know to sell and buy stuff for us. So I'll keep it. If classifieds go behind the paywall I'm out.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

Re: the PB classifieds, there was a comment made about maybe trying to extend those classifieds across other Outside platforms. They didn’t say whether that meant building out the PB classifieds to include other types of gear, or just replicating the PB classifieds model on other of their websites/platforms for other types of gear. It didn’t seem imminent, but who knows.

In their model 006-007, you’d be shopping for biking in their PB classifieds and ski gear in their SKI classifieds. They want to dominate the digital space across consumer outdoor interests, and they are definitely, aggressively angling for the many folks like you who do two or more activities. You are the sort of consumer they are telling brands they can reach by advertising with Outside. Oh, and might they interest you in a yoga camp or nutritional supplements? 😊

As for PB itself, to some extent I wonder if the emphasis on paywall among users isn't really very worrisome to Outside after all. The presentation included the idea that they expect only 5-10% of its online community of users to be paid subscribers. They expect 90% of their users to access their platforms through free accounts. On PB, the popularity of comments helps cement those free eyeballs – you have to create a free account to post comments. Or enter their giveaways. Or post on their classifieds. Etc., etc., etc.

When one accesses for free, Outside still gains insight on our interests, gather our first party data, target their marketing at us, and inundate us – even on the free platform – to their advertisers. The huck-to-flat video posted this week on PB is an example. I didn’t have to pay to see it, so maybe that is a “win,” but boy were the Cush Core sponsorship and product placement references (“we put Cush Core in all our control wheels”) front and center. Or the Field Test videos, again I didn’t have to pay, but the Sun Peak Bike Park sponsorship saturated the videos. And this week they are posting a bunch of other Sun Peak video content, and I’d be shocked if that wasn’t explicitly or implicitly part of the sponsorship relationship too.

Much of this sort of thing was going on pre-acquisition too. Orbea was all over PB Academy for example. But I guess my takeaway is that the intertwining of PB content and brand marketing is going to get really turbocharged, and how content is selected, created, shaped, and presented is going to even more often defined by marketing and sponsorship dollars. When Outside says they want to “curate” our world for us, it is really just a creepy euphemism for limiting our field of view to their brand partners and Outside’s own products. Nothing novel in that as a capitalistic endeavor, but PB is going to be heavily leveraged to accomplish that goal, and imo it will have an impact on content and editorial independence.

As for the paid stuff, I’d guess that they will over time peel away many of the most popular PB-created content, especially the video, and maybe the podcast, stuff. They’ll probably go slow, but they have quite a bit of popular content already to potentially leverage: PB Academy, Field Tests, WynTV, Cathro’s stuff, etc. Wonder if they will try to outbid Red Bull TV for the license for some of the UCI events. They’ll have to figure out what the break points are for # of free eyeballs they lose by putting stuff behind a paywall vs. # of paid subscribers they gain. This isn’t Outside’s first rodeo, and I suspect they are quite good at sussing out those break points.

Anyway, more than anyone asked for. Bottom line: Outside seems already (something like 80 million hits a month on their platforms), or is on its way to becoming, an outdoor activities juggernaut that wants to target and lock down the page views, event and travel dollars, and discretionary spending of affluent consumers. For Outside, PB is another means to that end.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

genny1 said:


> (Edit: I forgot to mention, they are all-in on e-bikes)


I've been hesitant to jump on the "Outside spells the end of PB" bandwagon, but did PB seem to be pumping that Yeti e-bike story a bit much.

I dunno....prolly just me.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

End of an era&#8230;


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Funny to see the "outside+" subscribers get downvoted by the angry commenters every time.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

TylerVernon said:


> Funny to see the "outside+" subscribers get downvoted by the angry commenters every time.


Most of them didn't even know they would have a tag on their username, and be in the crosshairs of the rage. It came out of nowhere. Even funnier.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

genny1 said:


> Re: the PB classifieds, there was a comment made about maybe trying to extend those classifieds across other Outside platforms. They didn't say whether that meant building out the PB classifieds to include other types of gear, or just replicating the PB classifieds model on other of their websites/platforms for other types of gear. It didn't seem imminent, but who knows.
> 
> In their model 006-007, you'd be shopping for biking in their PB classifieds and ski gear in their SKI classifieds. They want to dominate the digital space across consumer outdoor interests, and they are definitely, aggressively angling for the many folks like you who do two or more activities. You are the sort of consumer they are telling brands they can reach by advertising with Outside. Oh, and might they interest you in a yoga camp or nutritional supplements? ?
> 
> ...


This is incredible. You should consider being a writer for PB. A conscientious objector of sorts. A provider of what would be a more popular counterpoint. Maybe I would stick around. Anyway, great write up. Nice writing skill set.


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## genny1 (Jul 7, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> This is incredible. You should consider being a writer for PB. A conscientious objector of sorts. A provider of what would be a more popular counterpoint. Maybe I would stick around. Anyway, great write up. Nice writing skill set.


Thanks Mike, that is very kind.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

A couple more weeks in, and other than the banners, the biggest change has been the comments


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> A couple more weeks in, and other than the banners, the biggest change has been the comments


It’s early days still.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

mtnbkrmike said:


> It’s early days still.


Sure, but it's still just making me laugh.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> A couple more weeks in, and other than the banners, the biggest change has been the comments


Nope, more and more PRs from companies and their either shitty products or M&A. Kinda kills all the good comments.


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