# ultralight carbon saddles - fighting a myth !



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Ok - we have debates on how uncomfortable all those carbon saddles are over and over. Just this week again in a thread about comfort of seatposts people would say this can be neclected...and that putting a carbon saddle on top of a "comfortable" seatpost would make for discomfort and rigid seating zone. So i just want to try to show those people that they are wrong.

I always try to tell people that the carbon shells of those saddles usually offer a lot of flex and make for MORE comfort than your regular saddle...but people that have never actually ridden such saddles won't believe.

So i just did a little video to demonstrate the amount of flex such a shell can have. Just imagine sitting on it with your full weight and you can have an idea on the amount of "suspension" you get just out of the saddles shell. This is actually what i call absorbing irregularities...this is what makes for comfort !

Now if a saddle fits your back is on another sheet.I'm not trying to say saddle X or Y is the best. I'm just trying to show that the myth about such carbon saddles beeing hard and uncomfortable is really just that - a myth.

Shown below the flex of a Token Full Carbon saddle (108g):
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## liam2051 (Apr 19, 2008)

Does that saddle have its rear end rails pulled out? The token is a wet noodle compared to my FSA, hardly any flex at all, whereas that one moves by the looks of the video the good part of an inch


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

liam2051 said:


> Does that saddle have its rear end rails pulled out? The token is a wet noodle compared to my FSA, hardly any flex at all, whereas that one moves by the looks of the video the good part of an inch


No - nothing special other than the patented anatomic design.

"Good" carbon saddles offer this kind of flex but there sure are some saddles which might be bonehard. Usually the lighter a saddle is the more the shell flexes.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

Does the token flex more or less than the Saevid? And what's the confirmed weight on the token?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

russya said:


> Does the token flex more or less than the Saevid? And what's the confirmed weight on the token?


The Token has definitely more flex than the Saevid. Weight of the Token is 108g.

The Saevid is one of the stiffer carbon saddles. The "Wings" do have some flex but the middle part of the shell is pretty rigid. It definitely has to fit your butt. I can't really comment on the Saevid as i wasn't able to do longer rides. I'm still suffering from broken ribs so my riding has come to a complete stop for 1 full month now...I just installed the Token on my other Winter-commuter today and found it really comfortable. Seeing the amount of flex it had made me do this movie as it shows really good what i was talking about all those past years.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

Did Token stop making that saddle? Their page doesn't have a full carbon with the slot like that one has. They have a leather covered one, but it's listed at 214g....too much


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

russya said:


> Did Token stop making that saddle? Their page doesn't have a full carbon with the slot like that one has. They have a leather covered one, but it's listed at 214g....too much


No - this one is brandnew.
They also sold that other carbon saddle pictured below which could never be seen on their website


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## Soya (Jun 22, 2007)

nino said:


> but there sure are some saddles which might be bonehard. Usually the lighter a saddle is the more the shell flexes.


The Cycle King carbon saddle comes to mind.


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## racerick (Mar 15, 2009)

although there is flex built in on these saddles, at least for me, a padded saddle is a must and well worth the weight penalty. 

nino, kudos to you that you can tolerate that saddle. i surely would be running one if my rear could stand it  

same as a (especially the) front tire, i think it is wise to factor in traction as well as weight when selecting one to use.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

racerick said:


> although there is flex built in on these saddles, at least for me, a padded saddle is a must and well worth the weight penalty.
> 
> nino, kudos to you that you can tolerate that saddle. i surely would be running one if my rear could stand it
> 
> same as a (especially the) front tire, i think it is wise to factor in traction as well as weight when selecting one to use.


I once tuned my SLR by stripping off al the padding as it was pretty much worn...the padding didn't make any difference ! The un-padded SLR was the same than before. A good chamois in your pants helps more than the best padding on a saddle. And i can only repeat what i already wrote above: you sure have to find a saddle that fits your butt but the lightweight carbon saddles can offer more flex than regular,padded saddles.

Which front tire are you talking about?


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I've been riding on Tune SpeedNeedle saddles for the last 3 years now, and really like them. I did a 5 1/4 hour MTB race in September, and that was my biggest concern. When I finished the race, I recalled my initial concern, and laughed: I had never felt any discomfort during the race at all.

Recently I rushed out the door on my 35 minute commute to work, and 3 minutes into the ride, realised my "privates" were cold. I had forgot to put on my shorts with chamois (yes, I had other layers on, no I was not riding nude). I again had no discomfort on that short ride. I expect had I gone out for a longer ride, I would eventually have had some issues. Either that, or I really am a "numb nuts".


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## racerick (Mar 15, 2009)

as for front tires, i think tires like the furious fred up front
are completely silly. 
i guess that tire may work for some folks, but certainly not in moderately rough, loose conditions

i currently run a nevegal 1.95, weighing in from 540 -550.
i plan to try the 2010 nobby nic, claimed weight of around 490.
i am aware if its reputation for its thin sidewalls' propensity to slash

my neighbor used to run conti race kings & i tried one of those up front, but was not satisfied. too bad, id LOVE to run a 420 g. tire up front

i run a maxxis larsen tt, eXCeption in the rear > 369 g.


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## Cezex (Oct 16, 2009)

nino said:


> No - this one is brandnew.
> They also sold that other carbon saddle pictured below which could never be seen on their website


Does this one have similar flexibility to one used in video ?


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

Nino, any experience or knowledge of a Merek Mega SQ1 road/mtb saddle? Claimed 110 grams and flexible.


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## serious (Jan 25, 2005)

Wouldn't all that saddle flex result in the middle of the saddle ramming up your butt?


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## 2times (Jul 14, 2006)

Nino, Kudos for making the video, cool stuff. 

How wide is that saddle?


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## kestrel242 (Jul 11, 2008)

serious said:


> Wouldn't all that saddle flex result in the middle of the saddle ramming up your butt?


Considering how much we have to pay for WW components, who would notice?


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

Great that the wings flex, notice the middle of the saddle does not yield at all (right where your sit bones are planted). I am sure that's no problem for Nino but for anybody spending some time in the saddle it's gonna hurt...


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Nino's post might actually mean something if....

A. He wasn't completely biased because he sells the Token saddle and this is just a thinly veiled advertisement.

and......

B. He actually rode his bike.


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## SmilMick (Apr 9, 2006)

Scale shots and garage video footage... Lol 

seriously, how is that to supposed convince me of ANYTHING riding related? 


YOU'RE IN YOUR GARAGE.... Flexing a saddle that doesnt look like its ever seen a bit of real life abuse.


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## 20.100 FR (Jan 13, 2004)

looks interesting, but i would like another load case : push vertically where your sitbones make contact.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

SmilMick said:


> Scale shots and garage video footage... Lol
> 
> seriously, how is that to supposed convince me of ANYTHING riding related?
> 
> YOU'RE IN YOUR GARAGE.... Flexing a saddle that doesnt look like its ever seen a bit of real life abuse.


Oh man - you can't show comfort in a video! I'm not trying to sell you any saddle anyway. This is not what i was trying to do here. I was just trying to fight that myth that carbon saddles in general are bonehard. This is just not the case. I think it becomes pretty clear by looking at the amount of flex a carbon shell can offer.

If a saddle fits YOUR back is on another sheet.Again - i'm not trying to say saddle X is better than saddle Y but rather showing that carbon saddles can offer comfort to a large degree. I think most people get my point - some still don't as long as it's me pointing it out...

Rest assured that saddle gets some riding time soon.It's on my Winter-commuter with fenders etc...i'm usually riding all winter long, regardless of the weather outside (if i don't have broken ribs...).


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

My carbon saddle which is the cheapest in ebay, 98 grams from nowhere in china is bone hard but more comfortable than a Flite, it depends on a good chamios you have on your cycling shorts.

I will try these Token from Nino, just because he shows they may be good.


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## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

nino said:


> ...SLR...the padding didn't make any difference...A good chamois in your pants helps more than the best padding on a saddle.


Poor SLR--small padding does not help...ouch ugh---need a chamois thread to go with SLRs.

So where is there more chamois than in PI?


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## Cezex (Oct 16, 2009)

I was wondering if such flexible saddle is more comfortable that the stiff one. Any comments on that ?


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## jmartpr (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm in the same boat as Nino...I used FRM and Becker on both of my bikes....4-5 hour rides? No problem. Key elements here are that the saddle is compatible with your "rear" and second a good quality short or bib is a must. If you have padding on the short why would you want even more on the seat? Ok...more comfort? You have to be carefull as too much of a thing can be bad and in this case it's true most of the time. The rear merit for comfort goes to the shape of the saddle and that my friends is a very personal choice. So far I think the Tune Concorde / Becker is a great carbon saddle good for up to 4 maybe 5 hours.... plus who can argue when it just weights 53 grams!  People don't believe me until they try it..of course trying it means buying one and most are not that cheap.


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## sprunghunt (May 14, 2006)

so what happens when you _sit _on this saddle?

It looks like the wings flex and the middle of the saddle carries all the weight. You don't want the middle of the saddle carrying all the weight - because that's where your crotch is.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

jmartpr said:


> I'm in the same boat as Nino...I used FRM and Becker on both of my bikes....4-5 hour rides? No problem. Key elements here are that the saddle is compatible with your "rear" and second a good quality short or bib is a must. If you have padding on the short why would you want even more on the seat? Ok...more comfort? You have to be carefull as too much of a thing can be bad and in this case it's true most of the time. The rear merit for comfort goes to the shape of the saddle and that my friends is a very personal choice. So far I think the Tune Concorde / Becker is a great carbon saddle good for up to 4 maybe 5 hours.... plus who can argue when it just weights 53 grams!  People don't believe me until they try it..of course trying it means buying one and most are not that cheap.


Exactly-that's why just yesterday i got another of those saddles to fit my second MTB which still had a "heavy" Saevid mounted

The FRM Blackhole looks just like the Becker carbon but is a tiny bit lighter (Becker/Tune are 65g for MTB). The FRM has this ding in the shell...i didn't know about it and hope it doesn't bother me. Anyway - these saddles fit my back like a glove and the amount of flex in the shell makes it a perfect choice for me.


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## Vortechcoupe (Nov 7, 2006)

Anything new about this saddle? Longer term review, how does it flex in the middle? I like slr's, is this shape close to those? I can't seem to find it for sale or info on any web sites yet. Idea on MSRP in US dollars?


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## B R H (Jan 13, 2004)

*Be honest.*

Where's the weight savings if you have to wear heavily padded shorts! If you need the padded shorts, you're just moving the weight from one place to another.

Those flimsy carbon saddles wouldn't last long for most people.


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## XC_racer (Jun 9, 2009)

I wear padded shorts with or without a carbon saddle.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I've been riding a carbon Tune SpeedNeedle (the same one) that I bought used 3 years ago. Other than the leather on the nose coming loose, the saddle is still in fantastic, perfectly useable condition. I ride with padded shorts no matter what saddle I'm using.


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## spartan034 (Apr 5, 2007)

Who doesn't use padded shorts?

Honestly? I have never ridden with a serious cyclist who doesn't wear padded shorts.



> Those flimsy carbon saddles wouldn't last long for most people.


Really? have you tried one? These aren't for most people anyways BTW. These are for the weeniest of weenies and racers. Not for your average rider.

Nino, where can one find the Token saddles?


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## XC_racer (Jun 9, 2009)

In north america you can get the tokens here.

http://www.tufonorthamerica.biz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_99


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

spartan034 said:


> Not for your average rider.
> 
> Nino, where can one find the Token saddles?


why not?
Years ago when SLRs hit the showrooms people would say the same...

This is not a thread about the Token saddle in specific nor will i tell you where to get it although my signature might be a hint....It was about lightweight carbon saddles in general.I just mounted the Token on my Winter commuter and thought i would show the flex such a saddle can have.


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## superspec (Sep 15, 2007)

i got a token saddle in last week, it weighs 97g


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## ~ScaryFast~ (Jan 22, 2004)

nino said:


> No - this one is brandnew.
> They also sold that other carbon saddle pictured below which could never be seen on their website


Is it just me, or does this "other" Token saddle, weighing 108.3g, look identical to the Selle San Marco Aspide carbon saddle?


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

spartan034 said:


> Nino, where can one find the Token saddles?


Obviously Nino sells them, but so can any of your Local Bike Shops, so if you've got some friends at a shop have them call up Tufo, which is who imports them into america.

Easy. I love my Token stuff. I dealt with Tufo at my shop and they we're great to work with.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

~ScaryFast~ said:


> Is it just me, or does this "other" Token saddle, weighing 108.3g, look identical to the Selle San Marco Aspide carbon saddle?


correct - but the weight is lower and the price as well


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## Andrea138 (Mar 25, 2009)

I wish someone would make a 150mm wide carbon saddle w/a cutout. My dream ride


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

If carbon is so comfortable, why do the top pros stick to padded saddles for the most part?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> If carbon is so comfortable, why do the top pros stick to padded saddles for the most part?


Because they get sponsored


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

nino said:


> Because they get sponsored


The majority of their saddle sponsors have a full carbon saddle in their line up. Nothing makes up for leather and foam under the bung.


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

I just bought a another full carbon saddle, my two weighs 99 and 103 grams.

I just bought a Tune Concorde (Becker Carbon) saddle too, to my road bike.
54 grams is not too shabby.


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## vladxc (Jan 22, 2009)

I use also the Selle Italia SLR Titanium 137 grams and I must admit is really comfy.

So a hard saddle, but well made is really nice.

Is not the lightest saddle but until a new sponsorship, it's perfect 
I also must admit that I am bit afraid to use ultralight saddles as I might destroy them in a crash or something and I don't wanna loose so much money in a crash...


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## GiantMartin (Sep 12, 2007)

I use the Selle Italia SLR Gel Flow, fairly light, good comfort, reasonable price.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> The majority of their saddle sponsors have a full carbon saddle in their line up. Nothing makes up for leather and foam under the bung.


well - the SLR carbon is just one of those ultrahard carbonsaddles. That one has no flex so me too i would prefer the regular Ti-railed saddles...Same with the San Marco Aspide which is just a brick.
Those are the two mayor players within the saddle makers which you see most on Pros bikes.
Such saddles are the reason people think all carbon saddles must be bonehard.


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

Mattias_Hellöre said:
 

> I just bought a Tune Concorde (Becker Carbon) saddle (for) my road bike. 54 grams is not too shabby.


I hadn't heard of the Becker Concorde saddles, so I did some searching and found this thread about them.


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

Nino, can you give the dimensions of the Token Comfort saddle? Thanks.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

noshortcuts said:


> Nino, can you give the dimensions of the Token Comfort saddle? Thanks.


268 x 142mm


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## cottontail100 (Dec 19, 2009)

+1 for the comfort of carbon saddles. Surprised as i was an SLR without padding was no less comfortable than before i ripped the cover off.

My second main concern was that the polished surface may be slippery, esp when wet, but this was not a problem either when used to the feel of it. I find it easier to get my legs past the back of the saddle now too when going down steep slopes/ drops.

Heavier riders may be less comfortable as more weight has to be distributed over the same small surface area of your butt (although heavier riders may have more built in padding too!).

Perhaps it also depends on your bikes geometry as an agressive geometry will distribute more of your body weight though the arms than the butt. You can imagine that a "situp and beg" position takes most weight through the sit bones.

Finally, I think carbon saddles are less of a problem on MTB;s than the road bike as my technical mountain terrain means i can never stay in one position too long and have to change getting in an out of the saddle.


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## cottontail100 (Dec 19, 2009)

Nino - I like the Tokens but would prefer no colour/ decals. Could i simply sand of the laquer finish to remove the decals? Would this weather ok or do you recommend adding something after sanding?


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## tazducks (Jun 11, 2008)

got mine installed today.. saddle and post in the marble swirl. weights were within 2 grams of advertised! .gonna get some seat time on the trainer soon.. its no outside riding but im curious to see the difference in comfort if there is any from my old bontrager to this.. 
anything special need to be installed on the seatpost to help with slipping in frame? or is this not an issue to worry about at all.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

cottontail100 said:


> Nino - I like the Tokens but would prefer no colour/ decals. Could i simply sand of the laquer finish to remove the decals? Would this weather ok or do you recommend adding something after sanding?


All you need is some fine emerycloth (ca grade 600-800) and some spray laquer.

gently shave the laquer under water until the logo or colours come off.those are thin stickers which got put on the raw carbon before they put the laquer. On the saddle shown below it took me no more than 5 minutes to get rid of all those logos etc...it's done real easy and won't hurt the carbon at all. after that just put some new laquer on...that's it. Overall it might have taken me somewhere between 5-10 minutes.

I did that also to seatposts with logos i didn't like.There it's done even faster. 3-5 minutes total.


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## cottontail100 (Dec 19, 2009)

Cheers for sharing your experience. I am ordering x3 Tokens ;-) and will get to work when i receive them.


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## mxtrainer (Aug 22, 2009)

*Karbona comfort system-X saddle?*

Just ordered a Karbona comfort system-X saddle. Anyone have or used one of these? If so, likes or dislikes.


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## mrfixie (Jan 4, 2012)

FWIW, I'm anewbie on here, so no axe to grind! 

Here's my opinion on unpadded or minimalist padding on saddles; a thin layer of padding doesn't really do much! The bottom (pun intended) line is FIT! I have several carbon saddles with zero padding, and because they fit my sit bones well they work for me. Saddles that have a lot of padding can actually chafe you worse, because that elastic padding squirms around. 

It's been said in previous posts, but repeating - good quality chamois in your shorts is also very important! :thumbsup:


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## vthokie2005 (Oct 14, 2011)

kestrel242 said:


> Considering how much we have to pay for WW components, who would notice?


Classic!


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## mattkock (Mar 19, 2009)

Well said mrfixie! Whenever my clients ask me "What is a comfortable saddle for me"? I always tell them that when you find a saddle that fits your Sit Bones it doesn't even need padding.


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## B.Trimble (Oct 26, 2011)

mattkock said:


> Well said mrfixie! Whenever my clients ask me "What is a comfortable saddle for me"? I always tell them that when you find a saddle that fits your Sit Bones it doesn't even need padding.


Agree. My problem with carbon seats is some of the cheaper ones have to much clear lacquer on them and it's hard to stay seated with out slipping off .:blush:


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

My issues so far have not so much been the comfort as it has been the sharper edges around the nose of the saddle. Basically resulting in bruising on my inner thighs from it banging into them when going over stuff. I think the Tune Vor might work better for me but at this point I have actually been quite have with my San Marcos Aspice and carbon (railed) SLR that I just haven't gone searching for a new full carbon saddle. Don't get me wrong, the Smud saddle was half the weight but the bruising just wasn't worth it.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

B.Trimble said:


> Agree. My problem with carbon seats is some of the cheaper ones have to much clear lacquer on them and it's hard to stay seated with out slipping off .:blush:


X2, I find those glossy carbon saddles way to slippery. This Okias saddle has a satin/matte finish & its perfect - really comfy. Keeps you in the sweet spot on the saddle.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

I like it and looked at these before as well. The front tip of the nose still looks like it would get me though. Love the reinforced rails for sure!


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

If you are slipping off the saddle you need to change it's angle/tilt.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Cheers! said:


> If you are slipping off the saddle you need to change it's angle/tilt.


Never really slipped off, just don't like the extra movement of the high gloss carbon saddles.


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