# E bikes on your trails?



## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?

I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

No thanks


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

To be perfectly honest, I think they look like a blast. I've only seen two on our local trails and I tried not to let it bother me. If I saw a bunch I don't think I'd like it. If I were to get one for myself I'd use it on OHV trails and on forest service roads, since I know people would object to me riding it on the bike trails.

What worries me more is the concurrent push to allow bikes in Wilderness and, if permitted, how someone might try taking their e-bike out there.


----------



## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

Hell no!


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Nope....

Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie Comp review - BikeRadar


----------



## TheGweed (Jan 30, 2010)

As of now...no motorized vehicles on any of my local trails.


----------



## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

I don't own any trails, so anyone who is allowed is welcome to share them with me.


----------



## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

I mountain bike for fitness and muscle cross training, on top of obviously being fun. So I know I would never use an e-bike as it would defeat the primary purpose of my riding. 

However, there is an equally large, if not larger, group of people that ride for the pure pleasure of it. So if an e-bike will allow them to get out and ride longer (which will still burn 'some' calories), and it doesn't compromise the integrity of the trails or endanger anyone on the trail? I am all for it.

My concern is that these bikes are generally a lot heavier, and have a power source. So if a novice gets behind the bars of one of these and loses control of it, it has the potential to deal a lot more damage than even the heaviest of full suspension bikes. Since you likely won't see as many experienced mountain bikers changing over to e-bikes, the clientele is likely to primarily be amateurs and novice riders. 

A happy medium would be to put a speed limiter on the power assist to stop pedaling at about 5mph. (Whereas many of them are at 15mph) This allows them to primarily only assist the rider in climbing, where I would guess those using e-bikes want them. If a person wants to climb faster than 5mph? Well then you get to join the rest of the community and use your legs. 

Still, can't get away from gravity pulling that hoss down a trail at a much greater speed than a normal bike.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nope, on the trails I ride, non-motorized = non-motorized. Doesn't matter how ya spin it (philosophically, pedals or thumb lever), a motor is a motor.


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Non-motorized means no motor. Trails that aren't marked as such, have at it.... it's their choice to ride a weak motorcycle.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

OLx6 said:


> What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?
> 
> I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike


Wrong forum; check out the E-Bike forum for endless threads of the same sentiment.


----------



## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.

The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger. 

Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I could care less. I have never seen one (to date).


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I don't care for them, but my opinion doesn't matter in the least. It's a growing market and they'll be all over the place eventually whether I like it or not.

It's sort of like the candidate that you don't like winning the Presidency. You don't like it, but you still have to live with it.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

They are rightly considered motorized vehicles here and are only allowed on moto friendly trails, I would prefer it to stay that way. I haven't seen any yet.

I think they are great for transportation and communting, I'd seriously consider one for that if my commute was longer.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

alphazz said:


> I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.
> 
> The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.
> 
> Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.


Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Yup...
...me

Although it has been really hard for me to see myself, I'll be sure to get a vid up soon!


----------



## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.


That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

alphazz said:


> That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.


 Wyoming? Like where there are no people? Nice. Full sus? Give me a break. Out of control riders, separate issues. Closed minded, not at all. Here in MA, no motorized vehicles allowed on trails. That is public parks and forests, state owned. They can ride where ORV's can go, very simple. Here we can not just ride anywhere, access is not a given at all, and still is a hard fought battle. I see e motorcycles getting ALL bikes banned on the trails I have done work on for the last 15 years. We will send all the e motorcycles out to your state. How's that wilderness stuff working out?


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

alphazz said:


> That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.


All the fastest out of control riders here are on hardtails, most of the FS bikes are old guys with bad backs riding slow. We need to ban hardtails.


----------



## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

I was riding a 5 mile paved bicycle/walking path yesterday and noticed a No Motorized Vehicles sign at the entrance and wondered if that includes someone that is handicapped in a motorized wheel chair?

I know people have been calling engines motors for years - "what motor do you have in that thing" when they're actually asking someone what engine is in their car, so the no motorized bicycles signs that have been around for thirty years and predates electric bicycles may really have meant No Engineized Bicycles - as there were bicycles with gas engines on them back then.

If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

CA has a Class 1 rating for e-bikes that supposedly allows them in the same areas as 
p-bikes, but seems like the courts may need to decide the issue. It's a joke to say 
e-bikes go downhill faster than p-bikes since most individuals descend at a rate they feel comfortable. E-bikes don't allow them to descend more rapidly, probably slower since they're more ponderous and difficult to handle. 
Interesting thing to me is that manufacturers are having difficulty pushing p-bikes and are trying to boost sales with e-bikes. Wonder how that's going to play out, but the haters could just start buying a slew of p-bikes and probably put e-bikes on the back burner for awhile.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

matuchi said:


> If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.


ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?

E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

matuchi said:


> If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.


I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.

And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.
> 
> And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.


 It is all semantics, but I think it's shaking out that a "motor" is electric and an "engine" uses some sort of fuel such as diesels, ICEs, and rockets. I would not be surprised if the signs were all changed to "engineless vehicles" in another decade to reflect current usage and acceptance.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I realize that technically there is a difference but Webster says they're the same and that's good enough for me, and I suspect the law. For now anyway.

And again, motorized or enginized _should_ make zero difference as far as this topic goes.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?


It'd be legal on pedestrian trails designed to be ADA accessible, otherwise no. Just like you can't ride a Segway or quad anywhere you like by claiming an ADA disability. Kind of limits the market.


----------



## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

Harryman said:


> ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?
> 
> E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.


The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

matuchi said:


> The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....


again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.

I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet

I don't have a problem with the ebikes themselves. I would use one to commute if I thought it help my normal commute ride. I would NEVER use one on dirt trails b/c in my heart it is cheating...it goes against why i decide to ride bikes...but that is just me

Change is not always a good thing....


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

matuchi said:


> The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....


 The ADA grants some far and wide rules for access for disabled folks needing access. My friend in a wheel chair goes everywhere. He has a Boma, 750(?) watts, 20" wheel front and 26" rear wheel quad mobility device. It rocks, needs some wider paths but can handle some steep grades too. He can ride that anywhere he wants. Not just on HP accessible areas. And does. I sometimes mt bike with him at the same time. Folks should do some reading up on this.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

matuchi said:


> The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....


It's pretty easy to understand, no motors unless they are specifically exempt.

Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.

For example, JeffCo's policy is this: Jefferson County (CO) trail use Other Power Driven Mobility Devices

In a nutshell, no trails over 12%, 5mph average speed, 10mph top speed. If this fits your riding style, and you're disabled, have at it.


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

sXeXBMXer said:


> I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.
> 
> I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet
> 
> ...


On a serious note, I have no problems with e-bikes as they seem to be now, but do see the problems that could arise. It seems to me, limiting their weight, (to say 45 or so pounds) making sure they are peddle assist, (no throttle) and they are limited to 15 mph on the assist they should be fine. I realize there are also going to be enforcement issues, but I don't really think that should be the burden of the people that want to ride e-bikes..

What may be an answer is limiting the speed to 15 or so mph period, even when peddling or going down hill. This would stop mountain e-bikes from becoming high performance and would allow enforcement officers to try the bike and if they can get it over the limit it is not allowed in.

I do have sympathy for those that want e-bike as I have switched to mountain biking from dirt motorcycles mostly because 90% of all trails I use to dirt bike on have been closed. But I don't want unrestricted use of e-bikes to ruin mountain biking.


----------



## matuchi (Jun 9, 2008)

d365 said:


> again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. *you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?*


The last time I checked, my bike doesn't need a sticker.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I like the no throttle idea...I think that would solve many issues. It would truly be pedal enhancing rather than pedal replacing.

I also could not identify witht he weight of these things on dirt trails


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

As well as disable or modify limiters.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Its a non issue pedal assist or thumb or twist its still limited low power and and one type over the other wont make anyone of them more powerful than the others. I hope I typed that slow enough


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

NEPMTBA said:


> Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
> ...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?





Harryman said:


> As well as disable or modify limiters.


So we should ban all e-bike because some people with e-bikes will break the law. We don't ban all cars or motorcycles because some people illegally modify them.

I see on this forum people who argue vigorously against banning regular mountain bikes from areas where a few bikers illegally break new trails or illegally modify trails in parks. I don't see how this is any different.

Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.


Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.

Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
> ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!
> 
> Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!


Clearly all bikes are bad and we should just ban them outright. Nevermind that e-bikes are categorically different from pedal-powered bikes, that's irrelevant... The conversation is really about *****ing about whatever bike has pissed you off recently.


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.
> 
> Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.


Some of the best descents (I suspect anyway) in my area are on hiking only trails... Maybe when I'm old and qualify as handicapped I'll get to vroom up to the top and bomb them finally!


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

armii said:


> Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.


Either intentionally, or unintentionally, the CA regs as an example are effectively unenforcable. Manufacturers are free to be flexible with stated top speeds and wattage, which is how the classes are distiguished. There's no penalty if their 750W motor is actually 2000W. It is brain dead easy to change the upper speed limit, just change the settings in your controller from 29" wheel to 26" for example, let alone the simple mods you can do.

Example, 35 mph without pedaling:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fusion-high-performance-electric-bike#/

"The Fusion electric bike was originally designed to meet the California criteria for electric bikes (1000 watt). As long as you wear a helmet there is no license or insurance required

The Fusion electric bike is designed more like a very light motorcycle than your average short range slow speed E-bike.

The 48V MOSFET controller that delivers up to a peak of 2000 watts of power*.

The Fusions controller can also be tailored to adhere to any local laws international or domestic(250watt, 350watt laws ) The power level can be set on the LCD dashboard and adjusted for off-road use back to maximum power."

Or this, a class 3 bike that looks exactly like a class 1 or 2. Class 3 bikes are prohibited unless expressly allowed, Class 1 and 2 are allowed except where expressly prohibited.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flux-electric-bikes-with-attitude#/

Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.

The regs essentially allow you to ride any motorized electric bike you'd like, if anyone ever asks, just tell them what they need to hear.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.
> 
> .


Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????


Since the only place ebikes are legal here is on the road, no bike paths, no single track, I don't see the point.



armii said:


> Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.
> 
> I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.


So, everyone using the park should finance the bike inspection program? For every park we'd add more staff? I can think of 6 city parks that are all mtb destinations within riding distance of me, all with multiple entry points, how would we handle that?

We require OHV registration here at $25 a vehicle, I could support adding ebikes to that although in 30 years of riding trails I've never seen a ranger inspect anything, so essentially, you are just collecting money for trail maintenence. All ebikes or just those that go offroad?

Should we raise taxes to pay for more rangers to carryout random inspections? Sticker fees wouldn't cover the cost.

I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

Harryman said:


> I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.


You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

armii said:


> You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.
> 
> You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.
> 
> And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.


And how will they do this in a National Forest, with dozens or hundreds of entry points? Whose use is free?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

NEPMTBA said:


> Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
> ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!
> 
> Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!


Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

armii said:


> You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.


Seems the other way around to me, in many areas your suggestion is unrealistic. There are many thousands of acres and dozens of entry areas to most trail systems around here.

I can't imagine wanting police, fees, inspections, etc. on the trails, must be a motorhead thing.


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Empty_Beer said:


> Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)


 How about with a beer in your hand?


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

armii said:


> Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.
> 
> I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.


This would probably work on private land but public land would be impossible. Case in point in Arizona they have what is called State Trust Land, land that is held in trust for the educational needs of residents. The state leases the land to ranchers for grazing and you can get a permit to use it for up to 10 days of occupancy. The permit cost $20 a year or something trivial and is the only thing that will keep you from getting a ticket on the land. Unfortunately AZ is about 1/4 state trust land. That means just to police it you need to have more than the 3 or 4 wardens that are in AZ and paid for by the money raised by selling passes and ranching leases. This means that the large majority of people that use it use it illegally because there is no repercussion for using it illegally due to lack of enforcement.

We actually built a very large mountain bike loop in a patch of state trust land in Tucson that is quite the popular location. People come to Tucson and ride it and love it, all without the permit, because there is no one to enforce it. I would bet that 40-50000 people use it a year and maybe 0.5% of them have the pass. On a very few occasions in my decades long involvement with that trail did the BLM show up and actually ticket users without passes. I can only remember one or two times actually.

So while enforcement and money changing hands seems like a good idea, I would bet it would not pay for itself nor would there be the infrastructure or the oversight to do so efficiently and profitably.

As a side note, and completely related to riding on public lands: state trust land in AZ requires that you will only use the land with a permit. We had a younger rider crash on these trails, riding illegally without a pass, and injured himself. Broken neck as I recall, paralysis, etc. His family decided that they would sue the state because of it. Once the state determined he was riding the trails without a permit, they countersued to the full extent of the law for trespassing and using the land illegally. It completely changed the liability of using that area for this user and they ultimately were forced to drop their lawsuit due to their illegal actions on this property. I would assume that if a trail has mandated that your use of it is illegal it would change your liability if you are using it illegally. Something to consider if there hasn't been a determination from the public land managers as to the legality of your use on the trail. A simple accident could put you in a much higher liability for damages than if you had the same action on a pedal bike.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Once again lets not consider the simple just buy a pass , no no lets read the above and play what if with long winding unrealistic worst case a buch of bs that is totally with out merit.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .


You are such a whiny little fella.

Mountain bikers should start paying for access because some people want to start bringing motors onto traditionally non-motorized trails? Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? What is it with e-bikers - you not only want real riders take care of your maintenance, volunteer even more trailwork than we already do in order to accommodate you, and now we should be charged fees to cover your asses too? How much time and money per year are YOU willing to spend to support a sport you have no interest in whatsoever? Why don't you send me some cash to cover my snowmobile registration and club costs, if that's how you think things should work. Or does it only work that way when you're the one on the receiving end?

It's getting pretty easy to see what sort of people e-bikes attract.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah that's right I want you to pay for my access to every park every place and when you gonna get my them new forks ?? and hey why didn't you pay for my MT Pass I bought last week! yap yap yap


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

armii said:


> . You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.
> 
> And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.


Markham has "nearly 11 miles of trails" 

Markham Park Mountain Bike Trails

We have over 200 miles of non moto trails just within our city park system, over 14,000 acres with only 7 full time rangers to oversee it and a few more seasonal. Living in town, most riding takes place in city parks, county and USFS land, all are porus without a central entrance that you could gate. Access is generally through a small parking lot with a trail head or just a trailhead.

I've been riding here for 30 years and have only seen USFS rangers on workdays. City rangers essentially the same or picking up trash and I've never seen a county ranger. Lots of land + little personel = little oversight.

This is typical of riding in the west, putting a system in place to police e mountain bikes would be expensive and impractical since we don't ride in any sort of enclosed mountain bike park, it's simply land open to the public.

That is the reality for many of us.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .


I don't pay anything to ride my bike, ever.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .


We don't have passes, people use the parks for free, mtbs can enter anywhere there's a trail. Ebikes don't pay either, but they're not legal anywhere so since you cant ride them, that seems fair.

Our local club builds trails for free.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club


It's a National Forest, and I'm one of the people doing the maintenance.

Why would I pay to use it?


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

you do understand I am in the east there is only ST park or city park with some Natl forest and yes I think we all should pay , Its better than the 80s were we was illegal ever st park and city park


----------



## Cornbread1 (Jun 17, 2015)

I could care less if e-bikes are on my local trails. If some one is out there enjoy biking and nature as they couldn't otherwise, that's cool with me. I see people riding like crap all the time that are gonna do far more damage to trail over their riding life than a few e-bikes could ever hope to. Just my opinion, I like to see people out biking.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm "in the east" as well. 

And I already pay, in the form of federal income tax.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

thanks cornbread hope to see you on the trail , ok Le Duke why not


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club


So I guess that's another you should be paying me then.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

trails that are free to mountain bike only charge and licence e-bikes to afford to police e-bikes. places that charge regular bikes charge more for e-bikes. You're just dead set against e-bikes and know reasons why it would be bad, can quote the facts on your side and totally dismiss anything that might intrude upon your point of view. Come on, this is not a religious debate, logic and reason are acceptable.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??


Another reason.

Yes, I have a problem with that. In 25+ years of riding trails, I've never had to pay to ride anywhere that doesn't have a chairlift. Not gonna start now, specially when the only reason would be to fund a completely different user group's requirements. Pay your own way, leave us out of it.


----------



## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? QUOTE]
> 
> I don't have any children why should my tax money go to education?
> 
> ...


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

lol what a piece of work slaphead is has never paid so why start now


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Yes. Exactly. Why would he start paying for areas he is legally allowed to access for free?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

You have to pay for a mountain access pass to park at the trailheads to hike the San Gabriel Mtns. Actually you need the pass to park anywhere, even at a roadside pullout. Our friends in the Republican party call this a "user fee", expect to see a lot more of them in a lot more places as state legislatures try to cut taxes and balance budgets simultaneously.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .


What, pray tell, is the "Darwin theory"?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

When we travel I always end up paying to ride. You pay to ride slickrock. You pay in Sedona for a parking pass. In my area the snowmobilers have a guy collecting money at their trailheads during the winter. I work hard and pay a lot of tax and it would piss me off if I had to pay to ride government land, but I would. In reality we should all join a club to help with trails maintenance.
I hate e-bikes. I think they are the devil. I am okay if they are regulated to motorized trails only.
But before I get my panties in a knot, lets think about this. If I am sharing the trail with some old guy or lady who is respectfully using the trail then it isn't going to bother me. If someone is commuting on one then that's alright too.
The fear is that we will be bombarded be throttle twisting yahoo's and it will result in trail closures. I can only hope that this type of user won't last very long and will be onto the next new thing before it becomes a issue.
I don't know why bike co's are pushing this market so hard, there must be some real money in it for them. I have made a decision not to support any manufacture that has a e-bike in there line up.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rider95 said:


> And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that


Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying **** to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

well I have never been up your way so what ever works some times its just buying a map from a local shop , I always stop in and chat and buy something .


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying **** to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.


 I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

WoodlandHills said:


> I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....


In our FS district, the local trail club asks for permission to do trail work (maintenance), receives a "yes", then requires all participants to sign a line on a form. Name, age, check a block or two, signature. We had 35 people last Tuesday. Ran out of tools.

That's it. I don't pay anyone a dime, the FS doesn't come monitor us. Why? Because they've observed the work locals have done, and been satisfied.

People and groups submit plans for new trails. They get built a year or two after submission, public comment period, funding, etc. With a mix of volunteer and paid, professional labor. There are two trails approved for construction here now, that were planned by locals and submitted to the FS. Just waiting on them to solicit bids, select a winner and then local volunteers will be alerted.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok that's cool looks like its working just fine one thing I have seen that I think is a great ideal is what Santos in FL does , the bike shop green way bikes across the street from the trail sells a map that's printed on a small towel . That money is plowed back in to the trail fund and since its printed on a towel you don't have ppl throwing them on the ground .


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails


Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I figured that was the case, despite our disagreement over ebikes you seem a responsible person.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.


Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Harryman said:


> Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.


 If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?


----------



## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?


Anyone can ride their bike on the trails we build, or hike, or trail run, no need to join or donate. However, ebikes are motorized and motorized vehicles are not allowed on non motorized trails here. Plenty of other places you could ride it on the moto trails though,.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

dstepper said:


> Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.


I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.
> 
> Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.


Mirrors my sentiments exactly.

I have a great time riding dirt or snow on motorized vehicles. Took my son ATVing just this afternoon actually. Ride dirt bikes and snowmos too. I have zero problem with motorized toys in general. I really don't see that the current e-bikes used responsibly would create any sort of real issues on the trails I know (which are a good few). I just want to make sure they are never confused with real bikes as far as access.


----------



## Flat Ark (Oct 14, 2006)

As long as they aren't damaging to the trails I couldn't care less. Traction or lack there of is what generally limits/dictates my speed on the trails. With the exception of going uphill I can't really see an Ebike allowing one to go that much faster on trails.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


----------



## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Harryman said:


> I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.
> 
> Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.


There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area. I'm wondering if this is another blanket statement that really doesn't apply since the ebikes of today really weren't an option years ago. 
If someone has to gain access to land, I wonder if a video of someone ripping down a trail on a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner would be any less objectionable than an ebike. They are also a "different class of vehicle" and should maybe be banned from every public land.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

alphazz said:


> a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner


Or some "fatbiker" riding off trail and/or through sensitive/muddy areas, thinking it's all good cuz he purchased the latest trendy gear and now the rules (and common sense) no longer apply to him.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

alphazz said:


> There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area.


There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.


----------



## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Harryman said:


> There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.


Opposition? There's always opposition to anyone doing something that you aren't doing. Motorized traffic used to be okay everywhere. Now, partially because of the biking community, there are more problems with some people wanting to limit what others can do on public land.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.


^^^^ What he said. Our mt bike chapters are a not for profit. We spend the money on lots of PT lumber. Each chapter usually covers one or more state parks/forests in their area in which to do work. We have about 30 chapters all over New England and 5,000 + members. Often times we will get requests from the LM for reroutes, new or rebuilt bridges and such. We will sometimes suggest new trails as well. Subject to review as well as conservation and wetlands study too. Nemba raised $ 200,000 to buy a property to keep it from being developed. This tied in with several other conservation parcels too. Nice. A most recent project the NE part of MA involved 3 land stake holders, plus wetlands and conservation issues. We built a looong bridge over where a beaver dam was situated( it's still there) it connects 2 properties and was actually done by a pro trail work team. We as well as lots of volunteers carried in lumber. Worked with the AMC as well as several towns. Truly a cooperative project. Also a really nice grant by REI( way awesome) Part of why we here in MA and NE are vary wary of the whole E bike thing.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them. 

It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........

I hadn't thought to follow the money, but I do now. I bet there are dozens of big companies that are susceptible to public pressure that currently support exclusionary groups and can have their minds changed. It may be as easy a shining a light on the problem, they simply may not know that their funds go to support only one side of such controversial issues.

Thank you again for the tip: if we can get folks mobilized we can at least stop our money being spent to keep us out! BTW, the MTB trail organizations that work so hard to keep ebikes out, proudly list their sponsors on their websites: it makes it easy to find out who to call.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

> if such prejudice


 :lol:

Good luck with that. We've received grants from REI and organized workdays with them, they are all about human powered outdoor adventure, not motorized.

Seriously though, ebikers as a group could learn well from the experience of mtbrs and switch from a position of blind entitlement, "Our bikes are exactly like other bikes and should be able to go wherever they do!" to accepting that the bikes you ride are motorized and are not the same. They are not motorcycles, but they are not bicycles either, they are a new class of vehicle. You are not grandfathered in just because you would like to be, you have to prove to the people who manage the land that your usage is appropriate in the areas in which you would like to ride. Embrace that you are a new and exciting mode of transportation and do what we did:

Set up pilot projects, gather data, and prove that you won't increase user conflicts or cause undue damage. European data doesn't count, see below.

Accept that the situation in the US is unique to here. We don't have the low power restrictions that are accepted in Europe, 200-250W max, with over that being considered mopeds or motorcycles. Our limits are 750W with larger systems readily available and indistiquishable from each other. This will both increase the potential damage and opportunities for user conflict. There also exists here a strong anti bike community.

Acknowledge that the widely varying powerlevels available on ebikes are a problem for both regulation and enforcement. Come up with a solution.

Self police - ebike patrols.

Pick your battles, you won't win them all.

The regulations have been driven by the ebike/bike industry, they will only open the door, those on the local level are those who will close it and they won't tell you before hand. Bikes aren't restricted nearly as much as ebikes are and we won't ever get everything we want, you won't either.

Our greatest success has come from solving problems, not from demanding what we believe we are owed. Rogue DH trails? We close them and then raise money to build gravity riding trails in appropriate areas. A$$hats on bikes? Bike patrol nerds to spread the love. Riders causing damage to trails? We reroute them so they are more fun for everyone.

Be proactive or the idiots on the 1000 watt bikes will ruin it for everyone.


----------



## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Accept that the situation in the US is unique to here. We don't have the low power restrictions that are accepted in Europe, 200-250W max, with over that being considered mopeds or motorcycles. Our limits are 750W with larger systems readily available and indistiquishable from each other.


The limit in Europe is 250W CONTINUOUS power. The Bosch mid drive for example has 75Nm torque and at 80rpm this equates to approximately 630W of peak power. So is there really a significant power difference between US and EU? 
Also most mtb manufacturers (eg trek, scott) seem to use the Bosch motor in their ebikes, so the major mtb manufacturers comply with the class1 rules.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> ...snip...


Again, excellent post.

Simply *****ing about it won't change anybody's mind. 
Time will tell as far as e-bike acceptance. E-bikers themselves will be the deciding factor.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........
> 
> ...


REi can give grants to whom it likes, they are all about the stewardship of the outdoors. By human power, ski, hike, paddle sports, bikes etc. Prejudice? Discriminate? This a for profit company, not a government or public agency. Do you think they give grants to atv or motorcycle groups? Or maybe hikers, birders, bikers( no motors) type?


----------



## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........
> 
> ...


Cutting off your nose to spite your face! Sadly, I'm not surprised. Take your ball and go home.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm pissed that REI won't sponsor my off-road steamroller park. 
DISCRIMINATION!!!!


California is a funny place.
I'm so glad I don't have to live there.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?

Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.

But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Elitists", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm pissed that REI won't sponsor my off-road steamroller park.
> DISCRIMINATION!!!!
> 
> California is a funny place.
> I'm so glad I don't have to live there.


Is that DH Steamroller or XC?


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?
> 
> Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.
> 
> But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Snobs", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?


Good thing I don't live in CA. A couple of posts here by passionate riders ( motor and motor free) does not represent a whole group. They are a fad and will sort themselves out. $4-8K and 45-55 lbs? I would love to see someone attempting some of the chunky trails I ride on. And we'll send them all to CA. You don't have any trail access issues, overcrowded trails or limits where you can mt bike there do you? Here in MA we are just trying to nip this in the bud before we all lose access and problems start. Our trails are for all users allowed by law, hikers, dog walkers, birders too. Not just for mt bikers. And we do not discriminate against e bike users, they are welcome to use the same trails that the atv and motorcycles use. Good luck with your CA battles. We will do our own here in MA.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Is that DH Steamroller or XC?


XC of course.
DH would be environmentally irresponsible.

How


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

DannyvG said:


> The limit in Europe is 250W CONTINUOUS power. The Bosch mid drive for example has 75Nm torque and at 80rpm this equates to approximately 630W of peak power. So is there really a significant power difference between US and EU?
> Also most mtb manufacturers (eg trek, scott) seem to use the Bosch motor in their ebikes, so the major mtb manufacturers comply with the class1 rules.


Agreed, most people who don't know a lot about bikes, or ebikes will walk into their LBS and ride out on a bike with a 250-350W motor. I've ridden with many in Europe (mtb) and they give you the ability to climb like a fit racer which should be plenty if the goal is for a pedal assist bike to make up for physical shortcomings. You can't really do much damage with these bikes, they make it much easier to climb and that's about it.

However, just like MTBs, the enthusiasts who like to build their bikes up specifically by buying a frame and hanging parts, or prefer boutique bikes will and already do embrace ebike kits. Which, since you can legally use a 750W continuous power motor, changes the possibilities dramatically. They can peak out at 1300W, which considering the very top UCI riders can maintain @ 500W for 30 minutes or so is a lot. You could also buy a 1000W motor since they look exactly the same and no one would be the wiser. Or even a 3400W middrive kit wouldn't be noticably different to 99% of the public. Just like the public doesn't know the difference between a skinny XC race bike or a DH bike, they are just mtbs to them, anything with a motor whining past will be an ebike.

As examples of power:

350W





750W pedalling becomes optional









1000W More optional....





1200W FF to 29:00 for the comic relief when he actually has to pedal.





1500W Power on all the time





2000W and up, they still look like bikes, not motos 













3400W on/power off for a comparison.





I don't need to ride an ebike due to a physical limitation. If I was to buy one, I'd expect a serious performance upgrade to offset all that weight. 350W? Please. I'd skip straight to 1000W and maybe beyond, more power = more fun right? Does anyone think I'm the only one like that? A lightweight moto experience would be a hoot.

The land managers I know are in wait and see mode, since they are are few to none locally. Since no LBS sells them, it'll be kit bikes that arrive first. If there's no real penalty for choosing 1000W over 350W, which would you choose?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?
> 
> Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.
> 
> But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Elitists", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?


Sounds like you've got some windmills to tilt at.
Let us know how this works out for you.

Personally, instead of trying to cry, whine, complain and ***** my way onto the trails, I'd concentrate on EARNING my way in. But that's just me.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride.


Regulations aside, do you believe your style of bicycle is the same as an equivilent non motorized version? They are both bikes, exactly the same? Curious....


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Harryman said:


> Regulations aside, do you believe your style of bicycle is the same as an equivilent non motorized version? They are both bikes, exactly the same? Curious....


 I am not blind, obviously they are not "exactly the same", but they are functionally as far as speeds and trail impact. The fastest guys keep up or run away from me on the hills and we all descend at the same speed......


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

With an extra 250-3000w, you can run the slowest, grippiest DH tires in existence. No flat or uphill penalty (motor>Crr), but you can brake later, harder, and turn faster. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> I am not blind, obviously they are not "exactly the same", but they are functionally as far as speeds and trail impact. The fastest guys keep up or run away from me on the hills and we all descend at the same speed......


Huh. Have you changed your mind?



WoodlandHills said:


> EBiking is a different sport from both bicycling and motorcycling even though it uses a bike-like object to do motorcycle-like things..... It should be appreciated on its own merits.


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74173&p=1119536#p1119536



WoodlandHills said:


> I agree that the public are not into science projects, but in my case, it was no more difficult bolting a Bafang BBSHD onto the bike than it was assembling the bike when it arrived in the mail. Everything was plug and play and I end up with 1000 watts continuous and 1500 watts burst for $1500 including the bicycle with a 20ah battery that is good for over 35 miles in the hills. *This is NOT a motorcycle, nor is it a bicycle, but rather something in between* that is very easy to assemble by any clerk in the bike dept of Walmart, much less a tech at a LBS. With the BBSHD the Bafang mid-drive is a mature product no longer relegated to the experimenter type hobbyist.


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74402&p=1122762#p1122762



WoodlandHills said:


> For those who like to poke the bear there is now an ebike forum over at MTBR.com and as one would imagine there are some hysterical reactions. Introducing them to state of the art ebiking should keep things over there at a rolling boil for a few months at least and there might even be an exchange of actual knowledge! ES is great for info about ebiking, but for current MTB tech it's not so hot, to say the least....... It would be nice to have a place to go for pure bike stuff *w/o having to pretend I am actually going to pedal the bike in question...*


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79083&p=1168317#p1168317

Bold added by me.

At least you can see what ebikes really are up against and in all fairness, you do take a more reasonable position than most in the e-mtb community. Bravo for that.



WoodlandHills said:


> Given that there is still a Federal 750w limit in force, is there a legal Mid-drive for sale in the USA? One seller says on their website that the BBSHD is a 1000w drive that is only listed as a 750 to evade the law. The BBS02 is supposed to be 750w, if you use 36v?, As of today there is NO LEGAL mid drive sold. If one wanted to go into business building CA and Federally legal electric ebikes it would not be possible: there are no 750w drives for sale in the U.S, even at 36v (36x25=800). Simply ignoring the law or putting false markings on products is a shortcut to disaster for a new industry trying to legitimize itself.
> 
> Do folks honestly think that our opponents in the Lycra/MTB community do not read these forums, do people really think that once they make the relevant agencies aware of the industry wide deception as far as power levels they will turn a blind eye? And what will happen when a child dies in a crash of an illegal drive, will the attorneys decide to ignore the culpability of the company that sold the drive because they are such nice guys? I love eBikes, but some people are living in Dreamland.......


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68828&p=1130257#p1130257


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Not at all, hiking and horseback riding are different sports to MTBing but they also take place on the same trails. No reason Class 1 ebikes can't join them since they are the same speed as a fit young rider. If your complaint is that ebikes are too fast uphill, then you have to ban all the hyper fit fellows who keep ahead of me on the climbs too since they are faster than I am going uphill. I think we all agree that everyone is the same speed going back down?

You can also see that I am an equal opportunity criticizer as far as ebikes and MTBs go. It is still my opinion that the rating system the Federal gov't uses to determine power levels is crazy, but that's the law and I am complying with it. If they change the rules and make my motors illegal, I'll replace them with new ones that are or turn down the amps until they are.

However even with the existing rules, my ebikes not the fastest bikes on the mountain, Class 1 rules make sure of that and as long as the Rocket Boys in Lycra can pass me, what's the problem? Do hikers resent the fact that horseback riders are faster uphill than them? Not as far as I have experienced: it's a different sport that shares the same trails, just like ebikes and pushbikes are different sports that share the same trails. 

That's the whole intent of the CA law making Class 1 ebikes the legal equals of pushbikes, it allows another sport to commingle with the existing ones by keeping the speeds and trail impact the same as the existing users.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Le Duke said:


> With an extra 250-3000w, you can run the slowest, grippiest DH tires in existence. No flat or uphill penalty (motor>Crr), but you can brake later, harder, and turn faster.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Why bother with just that? Get an e-dh bike. No longer will long travel bikes be self segregated to shuttling or lift served by the fact that they pedal uphill like crap.

First Look | Haibike XDURO DWNHLL Pro and NDURO 2016 | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> Not at all, hiking and horseback riding are different sports to MTBing but they also take place on the same trails. No reason ebikes can't join them......


 Ok, maybe I need to talk slower for you to understand. Here in MA, most trails on public land (state forests and parks) are multi use. Many are open to mt bikers, but not all. Some are open to horses, but not all. Some would be too technical and rocky for them. Almost all are open to dog walkers with dogs on leashes. Exceptions do apply. As MA law states, no motor vehicles allowed on multi use trails. There are a few( maybe 6) places in MA that allow motorcycles and ATV's. E bikes are welcome to use those. So the MA law says they are not allowed on multi use trails. That is the reason. Clearer now?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> Ok, maybe I need to talk slower for you to understand. Here in MA, most trails on public land (state forests and parks) are multi use. Many are open to mt bikers, but not all. Some are open to horses, but not all. Some would be too technical and rocky for them. Almost all are open to dog walkers with dogs on leashes. Exceptions do apply. As MA law states, no motor vehicles allowed on multi use trails. There are a few( maybe 6) places in MA that allow motorcycles and ATV's. E bikes are welcome to use those. So the MA law says they are not allowed on multi use trails. That is the reason. Clearer now?


 So what does that have to do with where I live? In my state the rules are different. Are you suggesting that I obey MA law when I live in CA? I'm not getting YOUR point......


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> However even with the existing rules, my ebikes not the fastest bikes on the mountain, Class 1 rules make sure of that and as long as the Rocket Boys in Lycra can pass me, what's the problem?


Thanks to the vagueness of the CA regs, it's sort of fuzzy what motors are legal and what aren't as you stated. On face value, I'd say your motor isn't, but I don't really care one way or the other.



WoodlandHills said:


> I was wondering why my BBSHD was stamped 750w on the casing, but all the advertising says that it is a 1000w motor? If it is 1000w do I need to buy insurance? More importantly, over 750w is not a legal bicycle in CA so what if the cop or ranger looked online at the ads before citing me?
> 
> I am getting a lot of scrutiny from MTBers in the park where I ride, I thought I was CA Class 1 legal, but if the motor is over 750w then I am not. No matter that I may be in compliance in every other way. The NPS Rangers did an inspection of my bike this weekend and pronounced it Class 1 legal based upon a visual look over. My fear is that a disgruntled MTBer will go online, read the ads touting the 1000w BBSHD and send them to the ranger office in an attempt to get me (and all other eBikes!) banned from the parks.
> 
> ...


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74593&p=1125651#p1125651

Speed limits for both e-road and e-mtb would make far more sense even though they are also hard to enforce and easy to bypass. It would be more logical if they were a unique class and allowed where appropriate, instead of pretending they are bikes.

And, Class one rules "don't make sure" of anything, it all comes down to perception and enforcement. The fact that there are bikes like this:






Which don't scream over the top extreme e-bike madness visually like a Stealth, are just a trailbike with an unidentified middrive and that are far faster both uphill, in the flats and downhill than the same mtb increase the possibilities of user conflict and the severity of any accidents. You could ride this on your Class 1 trails as long as you didn't rip by a ranger which wouldn't be tough to avoid in most places. This is the problem for both the future of e-bikes and mtbs. I don't want to be lumped in together with that, I'm not sure that after a time, land managers will either.

I ride on multi use trails that include motos and in the old days, you could hear 2 strokes coming from a distance over the noise you yourself were making. Once 4 strokes took over, they were so quiet, you wouldn't have a clue until you both rounded a corner and scared each other to death. Motors = a higher closing speed, not everyone will ride their e-bikes like a prudent old guy.

I'm actually reminded by the emergence of ebikes by what happened here with quads. They were around for years of course, mainly used by hunters and ranchers as utility vehicles. Then, the manufacturers made sport models which sold like crazy and people started riding them on the local ORV single track. Unlike motorcycles that take skill to ride and you usually get into through a family member or friend who can show you the ropes, anybody can drive a quad. Sit, steer, pull the trigger. After a few years filled with idiots crashing, hurting themselves because they had no clue how to handle the power and increased user conflicts, they were banned and now they have to drive an hour to ride legally. It could be a similar path with emtbs.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> I'm actually reminded by the emergence of ebikes by what happened here with quads. They were around for years of course, mainly used by hunters and ranchers as utility vehicles. Then, the manufacturers made sport models which sold like crazy and people started riding them on the local ORV single track. Unlike motorcycles that take skill to ride and you usually get into through a family member or friend who can show you the ropes, anybody can drive a quad. Sit, steer, pull the trigger. After a few years filled with idiots crashing, hurting themselves because they had no clue how to handle the power and increased user conflicts, they were banned and now they have to drive an hour to ride legally. It could be a similar path with emtbs.


The same thing happened around here. Off road motorcycles used to have quite a few places to ride. Then ATVs became popular, the lowest common denominators bought lots of them and hit the trails, and not too many years later, bam...motorized vehicles of all sorts were banned almost everywhere. The moto riders really caught the **** end of the stick. As a mountain biker, I don't want to catch the **** end of the e-bike stick.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> The same thing happened around here. Off road motorcycles used to have quite a few places to ride. Then ATVs became popular, the lowest common denominators bought lots of them and hit the trails, and not too many years later, bam...motorized vehicles of all sorts were banned almost everywhere. The moto riders really caught the **** end of the stick. As a mountain biker, I don't want to catch the **** end of the e


That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.


----------



## baja07 (Sep 10, 2010)

Curveball said:


> slapheadmofo said:
> 
> 
> > That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.


Its what we all fear. In CA we already have Hiker only trails. Speed limits ect. Hope this doesn't effect what trails stay open to MTBrs long term.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Interesting discussion. Some related reading:

http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20150929EBikesBriefingPaper.pdf

http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conte...nds-BLM-Field-Going-Notification-July2015.pdf

Most interesting is the Forest Service's(and BLM) definition of OPDMD vehicles for the disabled. Contrary to some of the talk in other similar threads ebikes are not granted an exemption for use on multiuse trails, as OPDMD devices include those that are not created specifically for the disabled their use is restricted to areas specifc to their use and open to all users of such vehicles.

I think California jumped the gun on ebikes, but hopefully we can come up with sensible land management rules at the local level where the residents and stakeholders are aware of the historical user conflicts and can mitigate as they feel appropriate.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> So what does that have to do with where I live? In my state the rules are different. Are you suggesting that I obey MA law when I live in CA? I'm not getting YOUR point......


I'm suggesting you obey MA law when in MA. On some other posts, seems some have exceeded legal power and can buy fake stickers to deceive authorities. Nice. Our concerns are justified.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Your concerns are not justified much to do about nothing the type and power of e bike that are trail approved wont have any impact, the low power trail approved e bike doesn't go any faster then a reg mt bike. Wont spin the tire pull a wheelie but it will allow more people to enjoy mt biking you can bit*h and moan all you want but e bikes are coming to a trail near you . The bike companies are looking for the next big thing and it just might be e bikes they your favorite bike brand want them , but have no fear the e bike will not have any neg impact on your local trail they will have a impact on your local shop selling them .


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

My concerns are people riding trails they are clearly not allowed on because regardless of your perception of the impact of ebikes they are currently classified as motorized vehicles according to the Federal rules I posted. As such any use of ebikes on FS,BLM land that is explicitly posted as multiuse (hiker,horse,bicyle) is prohibited. Lobby for change and increased access, but I would not recommend simply riding under the radar, as that will increase the friction with MTB community and other trail stewards. And potentially lead to a loss of access for all.


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Velocipedist said:


> My concerns are people riding trails they are clearly not allowed on because regardless of your perception of the impact of ebikes they are currently classified as motorized vehicles according to the Federal rules I posted. As such any use of ebikes on FS,BLM land that is explicitly posted as multiuse (hiker,horse,bicyle) is prohibited. Lobby for change and increased access, but I would not recommend simply riding under the radar, as that will increase the friction with MTB community and other trail stewards. And potentially lead to a loss of access for all.


Don't bother arguing this point, they don't get it. This is a heads in the sand stance by e-bike proponents. "La la la I can't hear you" type thing. You can throw logic and law all day and you won't change their understanding that this could jeopardize trail access for all cyclists.

Frankly I'm of the belief that since they are so militant that they belong without any understanding of why they might not the p-bike community may want to preemptively force land managers to make a decision. It would be worth it in your state if they don't have a bylaw for e-bikes. Then communities could get working on guidelines, approved trails and enforcement if needed.

This attitude of "do now and ask forgiveness later" reminds me of our early years when we just rode trails until we were kicked off, some we never have regained. If we had worked to get the government to approve us before riding we could probably still be riding those trails and areas.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

E-bikes don't help anyone enjoy mountain biking. They help people enjoy e-biking or moped riding.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You are so wrong its funny My e bike has changed my life my weekends are now fun and meanful as I once again can enjoy the sport I love


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> You are so wrong its funny My e bike has changed my life my weekends are now fun and meanful as I once again can enjoy the sport I love


Which is great and I applaude you for your drive to stay active and genuinely think it is awesome. I simply do not view their use on posted non motorized multiuse trails as benign. You can argue, which everyone here obviously loves to do, that they are similar and cause environmental impact relative to mountain bikes. However the land managers of the majority of singletrack in the United States i.e. the Forest Service have taken a conservative stance on ebikes that puts them in the same category as motorized vehicles, which I am sure you disagree with. I simply think that if acceptance and access is your goal it behooves you to play by the rules now, to prevent potential future issues and create more allies for your cause. Claiming an OPDMD exemption that does not exist and illegally riding posted non motorized trails will do much greater harm to your cause and hinder the real possiblity of getting access that you desire. In the interim check out the Forest Service MVUM maps for miles of ebike accessible trails.

If I misconstrued your posts in other threads, and you do not ride singletrack that is posted non motorized unless it's local managing authority has explicity designated it ebike accessible, my apologies and I hope you enjoy your two wheeled adventures.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

So I take it you are opposed to a person with a disability using a low power e bike to access public trails on public land with no other changes needed to be made?.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Yes. I know that may sound harsh, but that is the OPDMD exemption I mentioned. Ebikes do not qualify as they are not specifically designed as mobility devices for the disabled, therefore they are only allowed for use on public trails where their use is open to all members of the public.

That could change if ebikers as a community lobby for recognition as a seperate user class that could likely be acceptable for use on current non motorized trails retroactively, but my argument is any attempt to treat them as such prior to advocating for changing the current reality and simply poaching public lands will not endear you to the land managers in charge of the trails you wish to ride. 

And that is something mountain bikers are acutely aware of having fought these battles in the past. It is worth noting that the Forest Service left potential exemption discretion authority with the local ranger district, so targeted local advocacy by passionate users could likely create the framework for long term acceptance of ebikes by demonstrating on a case by case basis how the should be managed, that may eventually lead to more trails across the country that allow ebike useage. 

Good luck with your quest, and I hope ebikes will become complementary to mountain bikes by turning current cyclist into your allies by understanding the long standing user conflicts that persist today and not aggravating said issues by claiming access before actually having it.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rockcrusher said:


> This attitude of "do now and ask forgiveness later" reminds me of our early years when we just rode trails until we were kicked off, some we never have regained. If we had worked to get the government to approve us before riding we could probably still be riding those trails and areas.


It will be interesting to see once sales begin to grow. Statistically, they are invisible currently to MUT users, aside from the small population of DIYers, off the shelf bikes are just starting to be stocked. Judging by what I've seen on the interwebs, which may or may not be accurate, most but not all of the current ebike community were not avid bikers in the past and use them primarily for general transportation with a few riding trails for fun. As such, most are not aware of the trail access issues the mtb community has had over the past 30 years except very generally, nor are aware of how trail access works on the local level.

Because of this, the prevailing attitude has been that the new regs rightly provide them ligitimacy, where before they simply rode under the radar being a group small enough that no one really noticed or cared unless you were an asshat. The power and speed limitations are largely ignored since they are recognized as being fuzzy to define and difficult to enforce. Tell whoever asks that you're on a legal bike and no one is the wiser. Again, at this point, it's pretty much ride what you'd like, just keep your nose clean around the LEOs and don't be an idiot.

Once the numbers reach a tipping point, and even if the vast majority of the ebike riders are sensible old dudes and ride 350W bikes, there will be a significant minority who won't. Who like me, would say screw it, I've got an old MTB, I'll buy a 2000W kit, bolt it on and rip around when no one is looking. The old dude me wouldn't be an idiot, but the 25 year old me certainly would have.

Almost every land manger/ranger/administrator I work with rides mtbs, they are well aware of the realities of allowing bike access in public spaces, the realities of human behavior on public land and enough about ebikes to be wary.

Legislators don't know squat, the industry lobbyists are in it for their wallets, it's on the local level that access is truly decided. Without ebike versions of mtb trail building orgs and clubs, they could very well be in the situation we were 25 years ago, where like you said, everything was awesome until the doors started slamming shut.

I'm all for getting people out of cars and off of couches onto ebikes, but like all vehicles, there are appropriate places for them. Expecting mtb orgs to embrace them with open arms on non motor singletrack is naive.


----------



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Curveball said:


> That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.


And if it comes to this, it will be the angry mountain bikers who make it happen. Angry hikers and equestrians already hate non-motorized bicycles.... adding a motor changes nothing for them.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Empty_Beer said:


> And if it comes to this, it will be the angry mountain bikers who make it happen. Angry hikers and equestrians already hate non-motorized bicycles.... adding a motor changes nothing for them.


This doesn't even make sense. Angry mountain bikers? Have you read any of the posts regarding access issues?


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Your concerns are not justified much to do about nothing the type and power of e bike that are trail approved wont have any impact, the low power trail approved e bike doesn't go any faster then a reg mt bike. Wont spin the tire pull a wheelie but it will allow more people to enjoy mt biking you can bit*h and moan all you want but e bikes are coming to a trail near you . The bike companies are looking for the next big thing and it just might be e bikes they your favorite bike brand want them , but have no fear the e bike will not have any neg impact on your local trail they will have a impact on your local shop selling them .


Let me pose these questions to you.

If you were to receive a ticket for riding your e-bike on a designated non-motorized trail, then would you either pay that ticket or fight it in court?

If you were to fight the ticket in court, then what would your arguments to the judge be?


----------



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Curveball said:


> This doesn't even make sense. Angry mountain bikers? Have you read any of the posts regarding access issues?


Oh... you think it'll be hikers and equestrians that will be complaining about ebikes so much that land managers will decide to ban all bikes because they can't easily distinguish an eMTB from an MTB?

I think it will be the mountain bikers making 95% of the complaints. ("Ebikes are poaching nonmotorized trails!!")

MTB access is inhibited mostly because people occasionally go too fast around hikers and equestrians. Those non-cyclists wouldn't know someone was on an MTB or an eMTB.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Curveball said:


> Let me pose these questions to you.
> 
> If you were to receive a ticket for riding your e-bike on a designated non-motorized trail, then would you either pay that ticket or fight it in court?
> 
> If you were to fight the ticket in court, then what would your arguments to the judge be?


 Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

rider95 said:


> Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?


Not at all please enjoy the legal resources available for your prefered type of recreation. Do not misunderstand, you are most likely correct that low power ebikes will come to the majority of trails some day. Simply if the past is any guide it behooves you to show better judgment on non motorized trails, unlike some MTBers of yesteryear, to gain your desired access with minimal user conflict of the existing base. Good luck.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?


I guess you have no real answers to my questions then.

Whether or not I would complain to try to get you kicked out or not is a red herring.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Not at all please enjoy the legal resources available for your prefered type if recreation. LOL what does that mean??? I guess you have no real answers to my questions then. Yes I do I don,t ride BLM land were I ride the ppl are friendly


----------



## MuddyBikeRider (Apr 30, 2016)

I have an e-bike so I say yeah. I have a pedal assist e-bike and I think a lot of people think they are like dirt bikes. There are so many benefits to an e-bike I wish that everyone would get a chance to ride one.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I ride a e bike I am not a criminal please don't make me one


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I ride a e bike I am not a criminal please don't make me one


Lol



rider95 said:


> I am not a lawyer , You want to ride a bike/ppl path that clearly states no motorized (anything) short answer yes you will be breaking the law , the sad truth is all e bikes break the law sometimes some were because E bikes are not understood . *I travel around the mid and southeast riding the best trails I can find and every were I ride I am breaking the rules sometimes the law* , the chances you will get caught are next to none with your bike few if any will know it's elec just peddle don,t go zooming around not peddling and you will be fine .


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73176&p=1105354#p1105354


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Quit riding prohibited trails and all criminal guilt will be lifted. Ticketed and forced to pay a fine I wish, but I will settle for public shaming.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

MuddyBikeRider said:


> I have an e-bike so I say yeah. I have a pedal assist e-bike and I think a lot of people think they are like dirt bikes. There are so many benefits to an e-bike I wish that everyone would get a chance to ride one.


Do you mean dirt bikes like 3400W e-moto bikes like this one?

https://proaddicts.com/es/video?video=209

You think it's "Awesome!!!!" evidently in this post.

Downhill ride video with a Kona with EGO-kit

These are the bike shaped objects that are the problem, for both ebike access and mtb access. They are both easy to get and will be very tempting to a certain segment of the population. What young freerider dude wouldn't want one? No more shuttles, no more pushing uphill. Perfect. Plus, they don't look like a Stealth, or any different from any middrive ebike, so they're easy to blend in with.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Velocipedist said:


> Quit riding prohibited trails and all criminal guilt will be lifted. Ticketed and forced to pay a fine I wish, but I will settle for public shaming.


Ah public shaming ?? lol I am a old dude riding a e bike lol your scared of me ?????


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok now its the public shaming not to be confused with shooting me or sticking a wood or steel rod in to my something , not least stealing my battery when holding me down


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

I would never physically assault, I would simpy call out bad behavior and take photographs, no desire to anger unless upon being admonished for illegally riding your masquerading as a bicycle electric motorbike on trails they are prohibited you become verbally or physically unhinged, that is out my control and would think very stressful for an elder such as yourself. Do you fail to realize that your actions are the problem, not our lack of acceptance. Continue as you are and reap what you sow, karma has many forms. Seems a lot easier to stick to motorized trails and work for access, but oh no wait I am the quinsential American consumer and I spent money on first world goods and I deserve to be able to use them in any way I see fit rules, laws, and reality be damned. Peculier perspectives are perplexing poor me.


----------



## btsjeff (Dec 13, 2013)

Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?

Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

btsjeff said:


> Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?
> 
> Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)


That is the law. I completely agree.

It sort of begs the question then, what arguments would an e-bike rider use in court when ticketed for violating that law?

I would just love an answer to that because the arguments set forth in this and other threads appear very unlikely to succeed in a court proceeding.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Yes I do I don,t ride BLM land were I ride the ppl are friendly


You do/you don't ride BLM land? What on earth are you trying to say here?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

btsjeff said:


> Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?
> 
> Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)


 Not where I live in Southern California: the Rangers all say that ebikes are welcome despite what the signs say......

They are working on new language that will keep ICE vehicles out but permit Class 1 legal ebikes. There are also budget issues with altering or replacing so many signs.


----------



## btsjeff (Dec 13, 2013)

So motorized e-bikes are going to be allowed on trails that bikes can ride, but non-motorized bikes cant ride on many trails limited to only hiking and horse back riding?? This kind of hypocritical law making makes no sense to me. Why are non-motorized bikes being banned from areas they should be allowed access and motorized bikes being allowed in the same category as non-motorized bikes. 

If these e-bikes dont cause anymore harm than regular bikes and that is the argument used to allow them access to the trails, then the same argument can be used for non-motorized bikes to have access to trails on Public lands (blm managed land), FS lands, Etc that bikes dont have access to.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

California has a government policy of encouraging electric vehicles of all kinds, not just ebikes: making low powered throttleless ebikes the legal equivalent of pushbikes is just that policy expressed as legislation. Another example is that the law pretends that my electric car has two people in it when there is actually only one. This permits me to use special carpool lanes even if I am alone in my EV.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

For "clarification"; CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles. The law didn't say they no longer had a motor (any idiot knows they do), just that they weren't a "motorized vehicle"; by law they were an electric bicycle. There are trails out here now that have signs prohibiting electric bicycles. What will happen in other off-road areas is anyone's guess. 
It's also interesting (to me) that IMBA is doing a study comparing the trail damage from eMTB's with pMTB's and hoping that eMTB's are more damaging. Oops! The study shows no or negligible difference so far.
Also, think it's humorous that some individuals think people who have never ridden a bike before are going to purchase an eMTB and blow them off the trails. Seems like a fast learning curve.
Additionally, get a kick out of the elitist, entitled people that are willing to stop an 80 year old, physically challenged individual on a motorized scooter, take pictures and engage this person in fisticuffs if necessary, but cower in fear if a downhiller is travelling 40 mph scaring horses and people off the trail and ripping up the terrain. Too bad you can't employ your righteous indignation and vitriol where it belongs; you there, can come out from behind that pucker bush now.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

WoodlandHills said:


> Not where I live in Southern California: the Rangers all say that ebikes are welcome despite what the signs say......
> 
> They are working on new language that will keep ICE vehicles out but permit Class 1 legal ebikes. There are also budget issues with altering or replacing so many signs.


The rangers are wrong if it is Federal land. Or they need to post signage explicitly allowing ebikes if their district has actually authorized their use.

Pretty sure the California regs everyone loves to mention does not apply to open space areas and in as much as you can use use them in state parks their implied use is on manmade surfaces not trails. My google fu is weak, will update when I find the link clarifying California's current regulations.

Here it is from Outside from last year, me thinks ebikers are taking part in cognitive dissonance.
http:// http://www.outsideonline.com/2027426/new-california-legislation-clarifies-murky-e-bike-debate

From the article


> Some mountain bikers worry that the legislation will also open up trails to eMTBs, but it does not. The bill applies only to bike paths, lanes, routes, and protected lands that are governed by the state's *vehicle code*.


Bold is mine, non motorized trails are not governed by state vehicle code. Time to get your advocacy hat on, or continue to flaunt the rules as they are not well known and easy to break. I will need popcorn as the deja vu of what MTBers did 20 years ago. I don't see ebikes access issues negatively effecting MTBs in the long term, they will simply shoot themselves in the foot acting as they currently are.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Changing the status of the vehicle has no effect on trails in open spaces and parks that are not governed by said vehicle code. I do see local managers granting access on acase by case basis, and support such efforts. There is nothing in that law that creates blanket access for ebikes on trails.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Velocipedist said:


> Changing the status of the vehicle has no effect on trails in open spaces and parks that are not governed by said vehicle code. I do see local managers granting access on acase by case basis, and support such efforts. There is nothing in that law that creates blanket access for ebikes on trails.


 I never said that there was. I HAVE stated over and over again that our local parks grant ebikes the same access rights as pushbikes however. Apparently the local Rangers and their managers, federal and state, have decided to comply with the spirit of the new law. Nothing compels them to do so, but they seem to have taken a suck it and see attitude..... If the rowdy element that already exists in the ranks of MTBers switches to 3000w electric motocrossers and starts to terrorize the climbs like they do the descents on their DH bikes then I am sure that even Class 1 ebikes will be banned. But for now that hasn't happened.


----------



## MuddyBikeRider (Apr 30, 2016)

I think that maybe e-bike's should be split apart. My e-bike, which is pedal assist, still kicks my butt. You have to pedal to keep going. Eventually you run out of steam. Sure, it lets me go up hills faster, but I don't think I have ever seen an videos of people riding up hill, it's only ever downhill. So if uphill is just a recovery, why not make it easier so that you can keep riding? I ride until I fatigue, it may be 5 miles unpowered, or 15 miles powered. I'd rather spend the day riding then half a day.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Woohoo! "CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles."

Time to save up for my new, self shuttling, 180mm Ebike! Don't worry, I'll be courteous and polite to other trail users as well.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I love seeing the bigots haters get proven wrong on here they speak of the law and have no room for people who don't agree with them . To hell with me and my e bike just because I am handicap and need my e bike to enjoy public land as they do. Just read the post I am hated on here repeatedly I am threated with all kinds of harm from shooting me to beating me up to stealing my battery nice people on this form . One of the post says he gonna fallow me around and take pictures another demands that I tell him what my defense will be in court!! lol all so funny I ride with my gopro so I am always filming so when the haters posted above attack me I will be ready!!


----------



## MuddyBikeRider (Apr 30, 2016)

I know that states are at odds with limiting ebikes and the Americans with Disabilities Act. As you said, ebikes are great for people with disabilities.


----------



## MuddyBikeRider (Apr 30, 2016)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Woohoo! "CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles."
> 
> Time to save up for my new, self shuttling, 180mm Ebike! Don't worry, I'll be courteous and polite to other trail users as well.


Congrats!! I live in PA and they made ebikes legal for road use only a year and a half ago.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Reading comprehension is lacking in this group, I never hated on anyone, and I simply said I would verbally inform you of your illegal activity were I to witness it. The only reference to violence was what you might do upon being called out, a hypothetical I created from the general tone of your posts. Again I would take a few pics and share them publicly to out the bad actors giving ebikers a bad name. Just the same as I would a MTBer poaching a hiking trail. 

I have 0 issues with all the ebikers that are in California riding in areas that have posted or tacit permission to ride ebikes. That has been done at the local level as it should be, and as I have agreed is the best way foward. You ( rider95 ) seem to be the only ebiker that is publicly and vocally taking pride in illegally riding trails because they are "misunderstood" and really just bicycles.

You sir are misunderstood, they are currently classified as motorized and no OPDMD exists to allow you access to non motorized trails on Federal land. Stick to legal local options or use the extensive OHV trails that you are legally allowed to ride when on Federal public lands.

I fail to see how I am being unreasonable or hating when all of the hyperbole is coming from your mouth. You have no claim to access, you must work for it through your actions. That seems to be the point you are missing, and feel free to continue disregarding reality in favor of your skewed perception. While you are at it ask downhillers how well that has worked for them through the years.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

PA has some great riding I am gonna be at High Point raceway for the MX natl were I use my e bike to get around on there , just another example of how my e bike has made my life better . There is a lot of mistrust misunderstanding about e bikes lots of misinformation too its easy from this form . So I say lets ride come and meet me and my e bike and see for your self , High Point is about 20mi n of Morgan town wv in PA . even if we agree to disagree we both may lean something .


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Of course I would not want to ride with the village idiot


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Where is the misinformation?

You are not allowed on non motorized trails unless the local management have explicity allowed it. Being disabled does not give you the right to use your ebike on said trails. I only keep poking you because in your prior posts you have commented on how you ride where you want, completely ignoring the potential illegality of your actions and their potential for hindering your riding options for the future.

I fail to see how we are the hating bigots when you are denying the current reality of existing regulations and rather than debate with us on the merits of your position you simply resort to name calling, platitudes, and equivocations.

Please enjoy your ebike where it is legal to do so. Why your bad behavior being pointed out is bigoted hate speech I do not understand.


----------



## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

Most of the discussion about e-bikes has been about e-bikes replacing pedal only bikes. I wonder how many would give up their motos if they where allowed to ride their e-bikes on trails that are moto illegal? I know I fall into that category .


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

They are not pedal only bikes. They are bicycles. E-bikes are not bicycles, they are some kind of mo-ped.
I do not understand why someone with such a disability that they have to have a e-bike to get into the wilderness would risk being stranded with a flat or broken chain in a area where they couldn't walk out. Remember that they are disabled.
Why does someone have to go for many miles into the wilderness? When I started riding a couple miles was just right. Then my fitness and skill took me further.
The excuse that my spouse needs it to keep up doesn't stand either. Maybe you are just a dick and need to learn some patience to encourage you spouse rather then tell them to go faster or keep up.
I have been to many motorsport events and have seen all kinds of pit transportation. Many of the operator's go too fast in the crowds. Why would you need a e-bike over a bicycle?


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

I fully support a disabled person's choice to ride an e-bike on trails where they are legal. In my opinion this discussion has no nothing to do with need and everything to do with legal access.

The loophole exists a disabled person could make a new vehicle specifically for disabled people that allows them to ride singletrack that is non motorized unfortunatey current ebikes do not fit that definition, because they are not specifically designed and intended for the disabled as a mobility device and they were not intended for indoor use. The two clauses in the OPDMD that would permit a disabled person using a motorized device on non-motorized designated trails. 

Therefore they are not allowed on trails at the moment. Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.


----------



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm sure there are not hoards of e bike people looking to overtake regular mt bike trails...
...all the people I have met just want to ride their e-bikes.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

I just saw a Sondors yellow fat tire bike sunday besides my e bike that's the first e bike I have seen out riding in two yrs . And it was on a paved bike path I have never seen another e bike on the trail any were. I wish some of you could ride that bike then you would see all the fuss is unwarranted.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

And how many times will you continue to miss the forest for the trees. It matters not how courteous and friendly ebikers are, and it is about their flagrant abuse of everyone's land with prohibited vehicles.

Ebiker, pirate downhiller, XC racer I don't care what you ride, I am calling out bad behavior exactly as I would of any person misusing multiuse trails.

Your righteous indignation at be called out for your breaking of the rules and and inability to understand why is the strangest thing in this thread.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm sure there are not hoards of e bike people looking to overtake regular mt bike trails...
> ...all the people I have met just want to ride their e-bikes.


 And they are going to ride them where? Just on paved and dirt roads?


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> And they are going to ride them where? Just on paved and dirt roads?


 Don't you think they will behave like any other MTBer would when sitting on their DH bike at the top of a cool trail that is posted "No Trespassing"? I am certain that no one in the MTB community would ever trespass or violate rules, regulations or laws, simply to selfishly enjoy themselves on land they are not permitted....... Right? I am sure if ebikes take their cues from what they see on the trails we should all be just fine, all we have to do is self-police as successfully as you guys.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

The hypocrisy is thick in the ebike community..... cruise the forums. They will tout the legality of an up to 750W "low powered" motor here, and their right to ride where they'd like, while the majority are on 1000W and up that can easily make 30-35 mph in the flats without pedalling. They still consider a motor powered bike you no longer need to pedal a "bicycle".

The door has been opened to ebike use based on bikes like those in Europe which are legally limited in most places to 250-350W. Which in practical terms means they only have enough power to assist you when pedalling, they are inefective with a throttle only in moving you over flat ground. Any studies coming forth on trail damage will also be based on that low power level since it's the only population of bikes large enough to study.

Here, with the 750W higher limit and with that easily stretched to 1000 or 1500W by look alike motors, you are entering what most people would consider e-moped territory, where you might want to help out by pedalling on the steepest climbs, but you can be under motor power in the flats or downhill. In effect, you assist the motor, not the motor assisting you.

On top of that, you can buy 2000W - 5000W kits that are edging into e-motobike territory, yet are at rest, indistinguishable from a 750W kit.

From a forum post, 1000W kit mounted on a hardtail:



> Between the lefty shock and the Cirrus seatpost/hookworm tires it rides like a dream. No fatigue, cruises over potholes doing 30+ no problem.
> For some specs it weighs 51 pounds, max speed of about 35 mph on flat on a fresh charge in an aero tuck with motor only and I put out 1500 watts according to the batt-man.
> On a slight downhill I have had it up to 43 mph and I'm sure I could have gotten more.


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=80076&sid=cc47d58cce861b8f3d33fe267e319df0

What motor for offroad mtb, 1000 or 1500W?:



> So what are you asking for? Advice about a full on off road motorcycle with pedals? or a street ride? A bike with a 20 buck fork is fine on the street. For serious off road riding you are looking at bikes with $500-$1500 forks.


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80068&sid=cc47d58cce861b8f3d33fe267e319df0


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

Flucod said:


> This is what you wrote -
> 
> "trails that are free to mountain bike only charge and licence e-bikes to afford to police e-bikes. places that charge regular bikes charge more for e-bikes. You're just dead set against e-bikes and know reasons why it would be bad, can quote the facts on your side and totally dismiss anything that might intrude upon your point of view. Come on, this is not a religious debate, *logic and reason are acceptable.*"
> 
> ...


You my friend need to take a remedial English course. My comment implied we should keep religion off the discussion, sorry you were unable to interpret the inference correctly.

And I neither own nor ride an E-bike, I just don't have a biased hatred for them based on illogical fear of what they may possibly do to my ability to ride a mountain bike.

I have been through this already back in the 70s and 80s with dirtbikes. Everyone said that allowing ATVs and Quads would destroy the trails, and they would be shut down, we would lose all our places to ride because of them.

Funny thing was the adding of ATVs and Quads to most trails actually kept many of them open because there were more people using them, the trails that got shut down 
were single tracks where ATVs and Quads couldn't go. 90% of the single tracks for dirt bikes got shut down in the 90s. Michigan went from a million miles of legal state dirt bike trails to under 100k of legal trails in just one year.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

armii said:


> the trails that got shut down
> were single tracks where ATVs and Quads couldn't go. 90% of the single tracks for dirt bikes got shut down in the 90s. Michigan went from a million miles of legal state dirt bike trails to under 100k of legal trails in just one year.


Around here, the ATVs were the main reason that singletrack was closed to all motors. Dirt bikers got screwed because all of a sudden, the LCD was on a mission to blow out all the singletrack into beat-to-**** ATV tracks. When it was 2 wheels, there was far, far less wear and tear on trails, and a couple passes didn't entirely change the character of a trail for the worse for every other user group, unlike ATVs.


----------



## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I love seeing the bigots haters get proven wrong on here they speak of the law and have no room for people who don't agree with them . To hell with me and my e bike just because I am handicap and need my e bike to enjoy public land as they do. Just read the post I am hated on here repeatedly I am threated with all kinds of harm from shooting me to beating me up to stealing my battery nice people on this form . One of the post says he gonna fallow me around and take pictures another demands that I tell him what my defense will be in court!! lol all so funny I ride with my gopro so I am always filming so when the haters posted above attack me I will be ready!!


Good grief. I was about to neg rep you for this post, but there is most likely a vein already bulging out of your forehead and it sounds like you are about to give yourself a stroke. So I'll hold off on that for whatever little good it might do.

Hopefully I'm misreading this and you aren't as wound up as you sound. But it couldn't hurt to just chill out just a tiny bit. Maybe take your e-bike out for a ride, on a trail where they allowed motorized vehicles.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Guys, can we all just get along and ride our bikes?

California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.

So if anyone is riding their ebikes and get stopped. Make sure that you have a printed copy of this bill and show the ranger/police. If you are on a Ca State Park trail, you are protected! Trails on Federal land or privately owned parks..ehh, ????.

Either way, if you get a ticket...Fight it! It'll force them to update those outdated signage. If any "haters" threaten you with bodily harm. They're breaking a different law and you have every right to defend yourself.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Wow... Lots of mis-information! Love it, keep spewing!


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

You are wrong because the law you quote governs use on bike paths, and does not instantly allow ebikes on non motorized trails in open spaces except for a those locations that have publicly stated they approve of your ebike use.

How hard is it to ask about current access before you ride and act accordingly. Poaching because you perceive access or feel justified in taking it, and publicly trumpeting your conquests should result in poo flingage. 

Are you so thin skinned and delusional that you think I have said something other "Enjoy your ebike where it is legal and stay off where it isn't".?


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Here print this out and keep a copy in your backpack. Just ignore the haters, they spend way more time on the internet than actually riding. Have fun and don't kill the flow!

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Velocipedist said:


> You are wrong because the law you quote governs use on bike paths, and does not instantly allow ebikes on non motorized trails in open spaces except for a those locations that have publicly stated they approve of your ebike use.
> 
> How hard is it to ask about current access before you ride and act accordingly. Poaching because you perceive access or feel justified in taking it, and publicly trumpeting your conquests should result in poo flingage.
> 
> Are you so thin skinned and delusional that you think I have said something other "Enjoy your ebike where it is legal and stay off where it isn't".?


Dude! You have way too much stress and anxiety in this comment. You need a reset, shutdown the computer...grab your bike and enjoy the ride! You've been on this forum for way too long now.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Guys, can we all just get along and ride our bikes?
> 
> California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.
> 
> ...


California law has no relevance to my local singletrack.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Keep in mind:

"With respect to the permitted use of vehicles or animals on property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality, no change in the use of vehicles or animals on the property, that had been permitted on January 1, 1976, shall be effective unless and until the legislative body, at a meeting open to the general public, determines that the use of vehicles or animals on the property should be prohibited or regulated."

and

"The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail."

It seems this bill really only affects things in state parks. Local, county, private, federal lands appear to keep whatever rules they had in place beforehand. State land managing agencies also have the option of prohibiting e-bikes or limiting their access. 

This is not a blanket 'free pass' as many seem to believe.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

slapheadmofo said:


> Keep in mind:
> 
> "With respect to the permitted use of vehicles or animals on property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality, no change in the use of vehicles or animals on the property, that had been permitted on January 1, 1976, shall be effective unless and until the legislative body, at a meeting open to the general public, determines that the use of vehicles or animals on the property should be prohibited or regulated."
> 
> ...


Please read my comment again...You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes) Besides, if you guys hates ebikes so much...What are you guys doing in an Ebike discussion?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Haters hate. They'll move on when they find something else to hate.
What's really humorous are the individuals that state a judge will call an ebike a motorized vehicle when the law of the state defines otherwise.
Equally ridiculous are those who feel entitled to the land for themselves because they attended a meeting or pulled a few weeds. Do they actually think they have more rights than a service, police, fire person or for that matter anyone else? Haha


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

PinoyMTBer said:


> .You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes)


Please feel free to go **** yourself.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

@Fos

Yep! I agree, they just hate for the sake of it. I honestly don't think they ride at all. Probably Sierra Club members lurking in our discussions and trying to "divide and conquer" us.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

By the way for those who don't know, and since, apparently, we don't have a moderator for ebikes (the only moderator who has posted in totally against them), an individual can flag profane, discriminatory downright stupid or some other form of imbecilic comment like the one above by opening the triangle at the bottom of the thread and reporting it.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

No need to get rid of those posts. Leave them there and let's show everyone how ignorant these haters are. I'm not offended at all, I find it funny!


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

PMTB, you're totally correct; shows the depth of depravity, ignorance and stupidity of the anti crowd. Leave it in.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

@slapheadmofo...Dude! Your name suites you perfectly!


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Please read my comment again...You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes) Besides, if you guys hates ebikes so much...What are you guys doing in an Ebike discussion?


Having a discussion about where we consider their use to be appropriate?

I think you might be mistaken in your assumption that anyone who is critical of their allowance on non motorized singletrack is a "hater". I don't hate them, as well with others here, I feel that they are great vehicles, either riding them for transportation, for pure fun or to enable someone who might not otherwise be able to get out in the woods. If I had the spare change, I'd have one myself. I don't however consider them to be the same as a bicycle since they have a motor, or believe there is an effective way to enforce any regulation in the US, no matter what legislation is passed. This poses a threat to ebike access which could also affect mtb access.

The preception that one ebike is the same as another is appealing when viewed from the proponents side (Since I ride a low power ebike, we all do, right?", but it will hurt you and us when viewed by the opponents. Get a certain percentage of 1500W+ idiots out there riding disrespectfully and we'll all get tarred with the same brush. Sure, we have our share of idiots too, but it takes a lot more effort to ride like an idiot when you have to pedal than when you have an electic motor doing the work. Plus, it allows you to be an idiot for longer and more often.

I'm not willing to risk our reputation for a new user group, no matter if they are on two wheels or none.

At least on this forum, there hasn't been any response from the pro ebike members on these issues aside from waving the CA regs, saying that "no one minds me since I ride responsibly", or telling feel good stories on how little Jimmy can now ride. No one says anything on how the ebike community is organizing, coming up with solutions to the future problems you will face when there is no longer one e-mtber per county, but 100 in each park and power limits are ignored and a free for all. The ebike world you ride in now, is not representative of the ebike world 5 years into the future.

Knowing what I know now, if I was you, I'd be in my local park rangers office working out with them how my organization was going to control the nitwits on high powered bikes and trying to save my access, because that is what it will eventually come to.

In the meantime, enjoy your (presumed legal) ebike where it legally allowed, I'll do the same with my bike.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Thanks Harryman, 

I agree on some topics you pointed out. But I'm not one to preemptively ban a rider demographic based in the assumption that some people will mod their rigs and get all of us in trouble. I just don't follow the "Slippery Slope" excuse. It's the person riding that breaks laws and causes trail access loss. Not an inanimate object such as an ebike.

1> Name ONE event where an Ebiker caused so much problems that resulted in the loss of trail access.

2> I'm sure we've heard of MANY events where MTB (not Ebikes) riders, injuring themselves and/or others because they're trying so hard to get that KOM. Heck some have lost their life. Those are the people we should ban! Not the Ebike or the people that rides em.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

E-Bikers in California

California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW. So all the e haters are proven wrong LOL perfect!


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rider95 said:


> E-Bikers in California
> 
> California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW. So all the e haters are proven wrong LOL perfect!


Unless it's USFS land. Thanks be to Allah.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

There is no preemptive ban, there is an existing ban as the Forest Service has since Jan 15 , which is there year AB-1096 actually passed, classified all ebikes as motorized. AB-1096 only applies to bike paths and the goal was to clarify ebikes use on bike paths ( areas regulated by california vehicle code) so they would not be considered mopeds on such paths.

If some local land managers feel the need to open their non motorized trails to ebikes that is their discretion, but there is nothing in AB-1096 that requires them to do so.

In other words your straw is showing man, as all the ebikers get riled up that we care about existing access rules, since all ebikes are currently banned from non motorized trails and you call us hating bigots? As you demonstrate your lack of understanding of current regulations. Holy hyperbole batman! 

Yes we are sarcastic and crass, that does not mean our arguments are without merit and they happen to be grounded in the actual reality of current regulations.

By all means continue to ignore logical debate and devolve into name calling with no purpose. At least engage the points we make, ignoring them imperils your future access much more than ours. 

Wishing the rules were different does not make them so, until you put in the elbow grease + time required to make it so. A little thing called advocacy maybe you have heard of it?

Of course illegally riding trails while trying to gain access to said trails works so well, its how all modern MTB Clubs work these days right. 
Tongue firmly in cheek if one cannot tell...


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Sigh....What can I say to make you understand my point...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! We can argue all we want about this topic, but Haters will always hate.

I will stop replying to haters now since its just a waste of our time. Go ahead and call me names all you want. I really could care less!

Everyone that keeps bringing up the "No Motorized Vehicles" signage, read the last entry (dated 9/9/15 before it was signed into law) from this link!

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billAnalysisClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096#


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Sigh....What can I say to make you understand my point...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! We can argue all we want about this topic, but Haters will always hate.
> 
> I will stop replying to haters now since its just a waste of our time. Go ahead and call me names all you want. I really could care less!
> 
> ...


How about you actually read your links, no where in that bill is there any clear reference to bike paths = singletrack. It does not cover trails in open spaces, and it is only speaking to the use of bike paths (think man made surfaces)in state parks. Do you think all the trails on federal land that are classified as non motorized in California are now open to ebikes?

There is no hate, I just don't understand how you think that law that regulates bikeways which are classified as the following according to California:

Bikeways
A variety of Class I, II, III and IV bikeways are located throughout the city. The four types of bikeways are defined as follows:

Class I - Typically called a "bike path," a Class I bikeway provides bicycle travel on a paved right-of-way completely separated from any street or highway.
Class II - Often referred to as a "bike lane," a Class II bikeway provides a striped and stenciled lane for one-way travel on a street or highway.
Class III - Generally referred to as a "bike route," a Class III bikeway provides for shared use with pedestrian or motor vehicle traffic and is identified only by signing.
Class IV - Cycle tracks or separated bikeways provide a right-of-way designated exclusively for bicycle travel adjacent to a roadway and which are protected from vehicular traffic.

Where in that are you able to leap to the conclusion that non motorized trails allow ebikes now? The caveat being if the local managing agency explicitly allows such use. Which I have said over and over is awesome and please ride where they allow you. Simply don't assume you have access, because the reality is you don't and continuing to act like you do will lead to less, with covert ebikers eventually ruining access for all you.

Again ignore facts and assume I am chicken little, and enjoy your few years of under the radar access, because you cannot lose what you have yet to gain, total access will elude you as the bad actors prove our point and the supposedly reasonable ebikers on a MTB forum for disscussing such issues are either full of rancor or complicit by ignoring illegal trail use at best or promoting it as legal at worst.

You are your own worst enemy.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Velocipedist said:


> How about you actually read your links, no where in that bill is there any clear reference to bike paths = singletrack. It does not cover trails in open spaces, and it is only speaking to the use of bike paths (think man made surfaces)in state parks. Do you think all the trails on federal land that are classified as non motorized in California are now open to ebikes?
> 
> There is no hate, I just don't understand how you think that law that regulates bikeways which are classified as the following according to California:
> 
> ...


I was referring to the latest analysis 9/9/15 right before it was signed to law. I'm getting sleepy reading your WHINE....sigh...I'll go and ride my bicycle.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

By the way! Trails ARE MAN MADE! Smarty pants!


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

But is their surface? Helps to read the whole sentence. And I read your link, how does an analyst's wonkish analysis change anything I have said? They conflate bikeways and trails, but the law itself is very clear and does not mention trails at all. If you can point me to California documents that make that distinction I will happily eat crow, yet you continue to ignore and avoid. 

So lets step back and say that you are correct all state parks in California allow the use of ebikes on their trails now, does that mean you intend to poach Forest Service, BLM, misc other Federal lands that base their guidelines on the current TMR (Travel management rule) because you feel the need/right?

I honestly do not care where you enjoy your ebike, if it is legal to do so. Rider95 has repeatedly flaunted his disregard for their current status and poaches federal lands in Florida, Michigan and apparently all over the east coast. Calling out his bad behavior is wrong why?

Good luck on self-policing looks to be an uphill battle, although not being used to exerting effort on the uphills how will you know what to do...


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

He s not village idiot for nothing


----------



## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

I think the most important part of this bill is the statement giving full jurisdictional control over who rides and who doesn't to local land managers. Just like us non powered riders currently have. Welcome to the lowest common denominator deciding who gets to play on your trails California. 

Don't know why I respond to this still.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Perhaps you meant "He is not the village idiot for nothing", but why should I expect coherent typing, when asking a valid question such as "Why do you illegally ride your ebike on non motorized trails?" is treated as hateful bigotry.

So why do you feel you are justified in claiming access you do not have? More over why do you get so angry when asked a legitimate question pertaining to actual versus perceived access rights. For someone who ostensibly joined a mountain biking forum to engage with mountain bikers in conversation / discussion it seems rather disingenuous to be so unwilling to participate in a conversation about the issues surrounding access in regards to e-bike use.

Hurl insults all you like, you are already giving e-bikers such a great name with your actions, you might as well go all in.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

This is copied directly from the bill! Un-edited, and it is ALL I need to ride my E-Bike to trails or other legal Bike Paths.

"This bill would delete the latter definition of a “motorized bicycle.” The bill would define an “electric bicycle” as a bicycle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and would create 3 classes of electric bicycles, as specified."


----------



## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

09/09/15- Assembly Floor Analysis said:


> 7) Prohibited the operation of a Class 3 electric bicycle on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over such path or trail permits such operation.
> 
> 8) Authorized local authorities and public agencies with jurisdiction over bicycle paths or trails, equestrian trails, or hiking or recreational trails to prohibit the operation of Class 1 and Class 2 electric bicycles on that path or trail.


Seems pretty straightforward. Class3 are prohibited on trails, Class 1 and 2 prohibited when told so. In other words allowed to ride unless explicitly told otherwise.


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

ok...

Class I - Typically called a "bike path," a Class I bikeway provides bicycle travel on a *paved* right-of-way completely separated from any street or highway.

Devil is in the details, please show me where bikeways = trails because failing that the law you keep beating over our heads does not have authority over non motorized trails (think singletrack) it's domain is roadways and bikeways that are governed by California vehicle code.

But again rhetorically speaking I will let you take your cake if you think it such, please explain how that law has any effect on federal lands in California. And why you think there is no problem with the non Californian e-bikers ignoring posted trail designations because "they feel like their motorized vehicle is closer to a bicycle". Because that is what the majority of this thread is in reference to the legality and use of e-bikes on non motorized multiuse trail the majority of which reside on federal land, which still continues to classify e-bikes as motorized.

So I am still waiting to hear how e-bikers are going to be better than the freeriders of yesteryear that did plenty of damage to MTBs in our pursuit of better access. Because at the moment you seem to be enjoying the koolaid too much. At least the freeriders knew they were outlaws, be upfront about your civil disobedience.


----------



## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Yo Velocidiot!

You still dont get it, the text that you are quoting are accurate and correct. But you're reading the "*ON ROAD*" part of the AB-1096 law.

*This eliminates the "No Motorized Vehicle" signage argument:*

"This bill would delete the latter definition of a "motorized bicycle." The bill would define an "electric bicycle" as a bicycle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and would create 3 classes of electric bicycles, as specified."

*The part of the analysis (voted unanimously by the assembly) talks about the "OFF ROAD" portion of the new law:*

"7) Prohibited the operation of a Class 3 electric bicycle on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over such path or trail permits such operation.

8) Authorized local authorities and public agencies with jurisdiction over bicycle paths or trails, equestrian trails, or hiking or recreational trails to prohibit the operation of Class 1 and Class 2 electric bicycles on that path or trail."

:eekster::eekster::eekster:


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Should I type slower? I thought we were done with that dead horse I ceded that point in paragraph 3 above.

To ask again, please explain how that law has any effect on federal lands in California. And why you think there is no problem with the non Californian e-bikers ignoring posted trail designations because "they feel like their motorized vehicle is closer to a bicycle". Because that is what the majority of this thread is in reference to the legality and use of e-bikes on non motorized multiuse trail the majority of which reside on federal land, which still continues to classify e-bikes as motorized. 

Your state law has no bearing on federal lands, why do you think it should?


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

https://www.imba.com/blog/supporter/california-electric-mountain-bike-law

Your law is murky and vague, and I see you post over and over how it gives access to class I-IV bikeways. Do you have an example of state classified class I bikeway that is singletrack? Because the law only grants access to state classified and regulated bikeways. If such a unicorn exists please post and I will happily become e-biker evangelist number one.


----------



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Velocipedist said:


> Rider95 has repeatedly flaunted his disregard for their current status and poaches federal lands in...


Sounds just like a great many mt. bikers from the San Francisco-Bay Area all the way to Tahoe... on city, county, state and federal land. I don't expect a great many eMTBers to behave any differently.


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

geez guys,, the new law creates new classifications of electric bicycles, that are not considered motorized. Class 1 and 2 can be prohibited by ordinance.. 
This appears to mean that any existing laws banning motorized bicycles does not ban Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles as they were not specifically mentioned. So until the ordinance is reviewed and rewritten class 1 and 2 electric bikes would be allowed.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Haven't read all the posts, but for information (and I may be repeating myself), in Orange County some trails have new signs that say "no electrical bicycles", so maybe all trails that want to exclude will need to post these signs. It's also been reported that Rangers in the Santa Monica mountains (state park) are permitting Class 1 e-bikes. That's why (not that I want this to occur) it might end up being decided in court. Other somewhat ambiguous laws like this end up in court when an individual (could be an attorney or someone with access to one) receives a ticket, then goes to court to fight it. Personally, I ride my p-bike five to seven times a week and can find many places that are legal to ride an e-bike, so let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

I have no problem with class 1 electric bikes (assist only while peddling, no throttle) being on trails, but I do think class one should be limited to 15mph assist, not 20mph.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I actually learned something from this thread.

A person who points out facts = Hater!


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

Empty_Beer said:


> Sounds just like a great many mt. bikers from the San Francisco-Bay Area all the way to Tahoe... on city, county, state and federal land. I don't expect a great many eMTBers to behave any differently.


And their bad behavior justifies his bad behavior how? I think the issue is more the majority MTBers do not poach, whereas our small sample size of e-bikers seem to promote it as the way forward.


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Velocipedist said:


> https://www.imba.com/blog/supporter/california-electric-mountain-bike-law
> 
> Your law is murky and vague, and I see you post over and over how it gives access to class I-IV bikeways. Do you have an example of state classified class I bikeway that is singletrack? Because the law only grants access to state classified and regulated bikeways. If such a unicorn exists please post and I will happily become e-biker evangelist number one.


 The Backbone Trail in the Santa Monica Mts is singletrack, on joint state, federal and conservancy trust land and is open to hikers and bikes including Class 1 ebikes. It's a few dozen miles long, but I don't know if it's "a state classified Class 1 Bikeway".


----------



## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

armii said:


> geez guys,, the new law creates new classifications of electric bicycles, that are not considered motorized. Class 1 and 2 can be prohibited by ordinance..
> This appears to mean that any existing laws banning motorized bicycles does not ban Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles as they were not specifically mentioned. So until the ordinance is reviewed and rewritten class 1 and 2 electric bikes would be allowed.


 I believe this to be correct, the law also allows managers to ban Class 1 and 2 if they choose, but the new default in CA is to permit Class 1 and 2 unless specifically excluded. Some managers feel they are being "proactive" by banning all ebikes without a trial period, others are taking a wait and see attitude by choosing to deal with any potential problems if and when they occur.


----------



## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Velocipedist said:


> And their bad behavior justifies his bad behavior how? I think the issue is more the majority MTBers do not poach, whereas our small sample size of e-bikers seem to promote it as the way forward.


It's just a fact of life.

Where I live, I venture to say almost every single seasoned mt biker (intermediate level and above) ends up riding trails that prohibit bikes, now and then (since they connect or extend bike legal trails). Short of massive law enforcement presence (which likely won't happen), that's just how it is. So locally, I focus on trail sharing etiquette education instead of trying to keep water from going downhill. Seems to be working fairly well.

I don't expect many seasoned mountain bikers who go to the e-dark side to suddenly stop riding trails they are prohibited on. Hopefully they are aware of the implications of their poaching and demonstrate friendly trail sharing behavior themselves.


----------



## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

I don't get all the drama over this. If you own an E Bike and you want to ride a certain trail, ask the land owner first. If they don't have a problem with it ride on, if they do then pick another trail. It shouldn't be this complicated.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

That's fine if you're in an area with a lot of private land which isn't the case in Orange County, CA.

For clarification: one who repeatedly misconstrues & distorts the facts = Hater
But, you're in good company with those who are entitled to the land and can't wait to beat the hell out of an 80 year old, physically challenged individual on a mobility scooter.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

fos'l said:


> That's fine if you're in an area with a lot of private land which isn't the case in Orange County, CA.
> 
> For clarification: one who repeatedly misconstrues & distorts the facts = Hater
> But, you're in good company with those who are entitled to the land and can't wait to beat the hell out of an 80 year old, physically challenged individual on a mobility scooter.


I'm still wondering where the threats of physical harm came from.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> I'm still wondering where the threats of physical harm came from.


Seems to be based on misconstrued and distorted facts ie -"hate speech".

Frigging ninnies.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Le,

Read the thread; I'll find it for you if you can't --- unless it's been modified (the "gentleman" stated he was going to photograph any individuals who he caught using e-vehicles on the trail, and like any craven couch jockey, was willing to engage them is physical confrontation if necessary).

You might also be aligned with the "intellectual genius" with the massive vocabulary who resorts to the most egregious form of the "f" word to make his points and express itself in the only way it knows.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Sometime '**** you' IS the point.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

( I honestly do not care where you enjoy your ebike, if it is legal to do so. Rider95 has repeatedly flaunted his disregard for their current status and poaches federal lands in Florida, Michigan and apparently all over the east coast. Calling out his bad behavior is wrong why?) The village idiot is whining agene never letting the facts get in the way of his need to whine and proclaim what ever BS he is spewing as law , this is the same guy that said he gonna take pics of me riding and public shame me lol . No matter how slow I type he can not understand were I ride I am legal but his need to post long winded bs mixed with misinformation proclaiming his view as law no matter how many times he is proven wrong .


----------



## Velocipedist (Sep 3, 2005)

So this isn't you, showing awareness that you are breaking the law and advocating to other e-bikers how to follow suit and not get caught?

I am waiting patiently for you to point out the misinformation I posted, but rather than engage in a discussion about e-bikes on trails (which is topical to this thread) you ignore and insult me.

If you ride only legal trails are you willing to educate fellow e-bikers when they intentionally/accidentially ride in prohibited areas?

As to the public shaming you have it covered in spades, and continue to deliver in this thread and others. 
*
Quote Originally Posted by rider95*
I am not a lawyer , You want to ride a bike/ppl path that *clearly states no motorized (anything) short answer yes you will be breaking the law , the sad truth is all e bikes break the law* sometimes some were because E bikes are not understood . I travel around the mid and southeast riding the best trails I can find and every were I ride I am breaking the rules sometimes the law , the chances you will get caught are next to none with your bike few if any will know it's elec just peddle don,t go zooming around not peddling and you will be fine .

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73176&p=1105354#p1105354



rider95 said:


> ( I honestly do not care where you enjoy your ebike, if it is legal to do so. Rider95 has repeatedly flaunted his disregard for their current status and poaches federal lands in Florida, Michigan and apparently all over the east coast. Calling out his bad behavior is wrong why?) The village idiot is whining agene never letting the facts get in the way of his need to whine and proclaim what ever BS he is spewing as law , this is the same guy that said he gonna take pics of me riding and public shame me lol . No matter how slow I type he can not understand were I ride I am legal but his need to post long winded bs mixed with misinformation proclaiming his view as law no matter how many times he is proven wrong .


----------



## gooseberry1 (Mar 16, 2016)

Came across this today on the silver moccasin trail just off highway 2 in socal.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

So if there is no sign on a trail it must be ok for e bikes then? right? So any trail that doesn't have a no e bike marker is now legal to ride now!! So if a trail dosent have a no e bike sign then we can assume e bikes are ok .


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> So if there is no sign on a trail it must be ok for e bikes then? right? So any trail that doesn't have a no e bike marker is now legal to ride now!! So if a trail dosent have a no e bike sign then we can assume e bikes are ok .


Sure, ignorance of the law always negates it. I've never seen a "no bank robbing" sign in a bank, so have at it.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Haven't seen "don't shove fork in here" sticker on an electrical socket either....maybe go for that first to test this promising approach.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

rider95 said:


> So if there is no sign on a trail it must be ok for e bikes then? right? So any trail that doesn't have a no e bike marker is now legal to ride now!! So if a trail dosent have a no e bike sign then we can assume e bikes are ok .


Please do, what could it hurt?


----------



## gooseberry1 (Mar 16, 2016)

My first thought was they closed it to all bikes and had to take a closer look. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

gooseberry1 said:


> Came across this today on the silver moccasin trail just off highway 2 in socal.


Ha! They need to sell those in 12 packs.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

vikb said:


> Ha! They need to sell those in 12 packs.


https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/product/10-969


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Harryman said:


> https://www.rockartsigns.com/d72/product/10-969


Order must be at least $75. That's a lot of no-ebike stickers. Or is it nowhere close to enough? Maybe we need a group buy and distribute accordingly.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/policing-trails-e-mtb-infractions-1049182.html

Maybe our resident wannabe e-policeman would be willing to pay for some out of the "anti-scofflaw/hooligan" bankroll?


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/policing-trails-e-mtb-infractions-1049182.html
> 
> Maybe our resident wannabe e-policeman would be willing to pay for some out of the "anti-scofflaw/hooligan" bankroll?


We will certainly be removing any illegally posted material like the signs from Rockart. Hopefully we can nail people under littering statutes.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> We will certainly be removing any illegally posted material like the signs from Rockart. Hopefully we can nail people under littering statutes.


Quick Question, how exactly will you know if it was posted illegally or by the land managers? Are you planning to work in conjunction with the authorities who actually manage the land? I would recommend you reach out them directly.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Sure, ignorance of the law always negates it. I've never seen a "no bank robbing" sign in a bank, so have at it.


Gee so e bikers are bank robbers come on relax its just a e bike no big deal


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

rider95 said:


> Gee so e bikers are bank robbers come on relax its just a e bike no big deal


Is that what you get from that post? Go drop some more roadies


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> Please do, what could it hurt?


 I did when I was in CO springs I rode every thing I wanted every were I wanted at red rock open space I rode with another e biker . And your right it didn't hurt a thing except when I crashed and got a handle bar end to the chest now that hurt.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rider95 said:


> I did when I was in CO springs I rode every thing I wanted every were I wanted at red rock open space I rode with another e biker . And your right it didn't hurt a thing except when I crashed and got a handle bar end to the chest now that hurt.


Yep, and all of it was and still is illegal, except for Gold Camp road. The "no one stopped me, so it was ok" is an interesting way to justify poaching.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Quick Question, how exactly will you know if it was posted illegally or by the land managers? Are you planning to work in conjunction with the authorities who actually manage the land? I would recommend you reach out them directly.


It makes sense that folks who can't see a difference between a motorcycle and a Class 1 eMTB similarly can't tell the difference between novelty signs and legitimate ones.

I can't help with that, but I do know the difference.

It is noteworthy that bigots are resorting to commissioning counterfeit signs from actual government suppliers.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> It is noteworthy that bigots are resorting to commissioning counterfeit signs from actual government suppliers.


Cite one single verifiable example.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> It is noteworthy that bigots are resorting to commissioning counterfeit signs from actual government suppliers.


Isn't it okay as long as nobody stopped them?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> It makes sense that folks who can't see a difference between a motorcycle and a Class 1 eMTB similarly can't tell the difference between novelty signs and legitimate ones.
> 
> I can't help with that, but I do know the difference.
> 
> It is noteworthy that bigots are resorting to commissioning counterfeit signs from actual government suppliers.


Pretty sure everyone can tell the difference between a full suspension mountain bike and a drop bar road bike but they are both still bicycles.

Just like folks can see a difference between a motorcycle and a Class 1 eMTB but they are both still&#8230; oh, never mind.


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> .... can't tell the difference between novelty signs and legitimate ones.
> 
> It is noteworthy that bigots are resorting to commissioning counterfeit signs from actual government suppliers.


Schrodinger's signs - both novelty and actual govt. issue signs at the same time.

Its not until you ride an ebike past it, that the cat actually dies.


----------



## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

The angelism of the mountain bikers (the real ones only of course) here is truly admirable.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

watermonkey said:


> Schrodinger's signs - both novelty and actual govt. issue signs at the same time.
> 
> Its not until you ride an ebike past it, that the cat actually dies.


lol


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Cite one single verifiable example.


One?

Look up. Higher in this thread. The signs referenced. The sign pictured. The one from RockArt.

Do you guys actually own MTBs and ride, or is this some bizarre gamer site?

I mean seriously...someone just referenced acid attacks on scooters in London in a thread about Class 1 eMTBs.

Maybe all this bigotry is just a giant exercise in trolling. I admit that I fell for it for a while, but the comments of the deniers are so bizarre, now I feel silly for my shock and dismay.

LMAO. "Motorized Vehicles! Oh no! We lose access! They ride too fast uphill!"

I'm on to you. No more taking these jokes seriously.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> One?
> 
> Look up. Higher in this thread. The signs referenced. The sign pictured. The one from RockArt.
> 
> ...


Recognizing the difference between an e-bike and mountain bike does not make somebody a bigot. It's not my opinion, your opinion, or anybody else's opinion that an e-bike has a motor. I'd recommend looking in a mirror.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Recognizing the difference between an e-bike and mountain bike does not make somebody a bigot. It's not my opinion, your opinion, or anybody else's opinion that an e-bike has a motor. I'd recommend looking in a mirror.


well said, and I have no issues with Class 1 eBikes.

Not sure if he was lumping me in with the bigot description or not.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> well said, and I have no issues with Class 1 eBikes.
> 
> Not sure if he was lumping me in with the bigot description or not.


I get the feeling he was lumping all of us responsible mountain bikers in his bigot description, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

He has no idea what the word bigot means. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> One?
> 
> Look up. Higher in this thread. The signs referenced. The sign pictured. The one from RockArt.
> 
> ...


The sign the USFS posted? Seems legit to me. Rockart supplies the usfs if it isn't obvious.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> Do you guys actually own MTBs and ride, or is this some bizarre gamer site?


Mileage that you couldn't comprehend, all without a motor too.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> One?
> 
> Look up. Higher in this thread. The signs referenced. The sign pictured. The one from RockArt.
> 
> ...


If you're talking about the moped and scooter crime in London link I posted, maybe you should actually read it before you post. I actually meant to post it in rider95's thread about how roadies steal phones to show him how ridiculous he was being but it gets a bit difficult to tell these threads apart and I posted it here.


----------



## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

chazpat said:


> If you're talking about the moped and scooter crime in London link I posted, maybe you should actually read it before you post. I actually meant to post it in rider95's thread about how roadies steal phones to show him how ridiculous he was being but it gets a bit difficult to tell these threads apart and I posted it here.


 A biker on a bike path try's n steel my $300 phone I stop him I am ridiculous how??


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rider95 said:


> A biker on a bike path try's n steel my $300 phone I stop him I am ridiculous how??


No, rider95, but it seems like you were trying to say that roadies are a bunch of thieves when it is actually only a few roadies, probably just one where you are. I was just showing that powered bike riders can be a thieves as well.

Your story was kind of strange, I didn't think people stole phones so much now-a-days as most can be tracked. But the link also showed that stealing cell phones is still a thing. You always seem to be very defensive but no one here has a problem with you legally riding your ebike.


----------



## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

mtnbikej said:


> Nope....
> 
> Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie Comp review - BikeRadar


When I saw this post I followed the link and eventually this exact post is why I bought the Levo Expert..... The bike is awesome rode 32 miles yesterday burnt 2k calories.


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Mountie said:


> When I saw this post I followed the link and eventually this exact post is why I bought the Levo Expert..... The bike is awesome rode 32 miles yesterday burnt 2k calories.


So did I.....29 miles/4100' and 2200 calories....but I did mine on the singlespeed, without a motor.


----------



## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

mtnbikej said:


> So did I.....29 miles/4100' and 2200 calories....but I did mine on the singlespeed, without a motor.


Hero alert !!!!!!


----------



## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

gooseberry1 said:


> Came across this today on the silver moccasin trail just off highway 2 in socal.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I havent seen an ebike that you ride plugged in so I wouldn't worry lol


----------



## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

mtnbikej said:


> So did I.....29 miles/4100' and 2200 calories....but I did mine on the singlespeed, without a motor.


Well done you... please understand that I wasn't bragging for me what I rode was good I'm 51 and really haven't ridden any bicycle for 20 years and have only been riding now for three months. Anyway I can burn 2000 calories in 2 hours and 45 mins is a good thing. 
Now enjoy YOUR day making YOUR own CHOICES in life and I will DO the same.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mountie said:


> When I saw this post I followed the link and eventually this exact post is why I bought the Levo Expert..... The bike is awesome rode 32 miles yesterday burnt 2k calories.


Curious how you measured/counted calorie burn when riding on an ebike. I'm actually asking, not trolling you. Does the Levo have this built in?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's probably been done but it would be interesting to put a power meter on an e-bike and see how the workout compares with the same rider on a bicycle.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

There's this: https://electricbikereport.com/electric-bike-cheating/

Commuting, not emtb


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

KiwiPhil said:


> Hero alert !!!!!!


Compared to the same effort on a motorbike, yes.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Mountie said:


> I can burn 2000 calories in 2 hours and 45 mins


On an ebike? Nope.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> On an ebike? Nope.


Why not? I would think it's possible to put just as much power to the pedals on an e-bike as on a bicycle, no?


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

You'd be hard pressed to burn 2k calories on a normal bike in less than 3 hours.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> You'd be hard pressed to burn 2k calories on a normal bike in less than 3 hours.


Only an estimate but Strava said I burned 1,800 in 2:18 a few days ago.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Strava has no idea. Were you wearing a heart rate monitor? If you were, it's a bit more accurate but if you weren't, the 1800 estimate is pointless. You were also on a normal bike. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> Strava has no idea. Were you wearing a heart rate monitor? If you were, it's a bit more accurate but if you weren't, the 1800 estimate is pointless. You were also on a normal bike.


Yeah, pointless but my real point was why couldn't you burn just as many calorie per hour on an e-bike as on a bicycle? Serious question.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I guess youd actually burn more due to the excessive weight, if you turned off the motor. Considering no one does that because...ebike, and the fact that an ebike reduces the load of the rider, the calorie burn would be less than a normal bike. That's just science.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> I guess youd actually burn more due to the excessive weight, if you turned off the motor. Considering no one does that because...ebike, and the fact that an ebike reduces the load of the rider, the calorie burn would be less than a normal bike. That's just science.


I agree most everyone pedals a lot easier with electric assist but I'm sure it would be possible to produce the same amount of watts on either one whether or not the motor is engaged.

Again I'm not saying that's even close to the norm but just pointing out that if you can burn x amount of calories per hour on a bicycle you could probably match it with electric assist if you really wanted to, you'd just go faster.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Maybe. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Harryman said:


> The sign the USFS posted? Seems legit to me. Rockart supplies the usfs if it isn't obvious.


Well they will supply anyone. That sticker is $1.10 on their website.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Yes, but it doesn't mean a sign you see made by them isn't legit. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

#1ORBUST said:


> Well they will supply anyone. That sticker is $1.10 on their website.


Since anyone can buy these, feel free to question them as well.

https://www.usa-traffic-signs.com/Stop_s/25.htm


----------



## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Harryman said:


> Since anyone can buy these, feel free to question them as well.
> 
> https://www.usa-traffic-signs.com/Stop_s/25.htm


Dont be an idiot.

As someone who actually worked with the USFS in ca putting up signs. I can tell you it's not legit.

There are standerds in posting and even signage. Read the USDA forest service standards. It's 681 pages have fun.

Trails for moto&bike signs must be minimum 12x12. You even have to have approved symbols.

This is like a 3x3 sticker.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

#1ORBUST said:


> Dont be an idiot.
> 
> As someone who actually worked with the USFS in ca putting up signs. I can tell you it's not legit.


Sorry, they are. I've seen them used in Moab on BLM as well. Your point that anyone can buy them and stick them where ever they'd like is valid, but if they're stuck on legit stuff like Carsonites and trail head signage, if they aren't supposed to be there, they wouldn't last long.


----------



## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

Harryman said:


> Sorry, they are. I've seen them used in Moab on BLM as well. Your point that anyone can buy them and stick them where ever they'd like is valid, but if they're stuck on legit stuff like Carsonites and trail head signage, if they aren't supposed to be there, they wouldn't last long.
> 
> View attachment 1149737


See that's in the standards. Metal sign posted larger then 12x12

Just the sticker alone stuck on a tree is so far out of standard it would not fly


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

#1ORBUST said:


> See that's in the standards. Metal sign posted larger then 12x12
> 
> Just the sticker alone stuck on a tree is so far out of standard it would not fly


Do you know what a carsonite is? Its a sign used by land managers designed to take...wait for it... 3 x 3 stickers. Here are some examples, and additional signage the BLM had to create to regulate the Kokopeli trails, as e-bikers seemed to think the rules didn't apply to them.

This is a carsonite:








This is another, (Moab, Navajo Rocks loop) clarifying for stupid people that yes, indeed, electric bikes have motors, and they too aren't allowed.








And yet another sign, Kokopeli trails, beneath your precious 12 x 12 sign, hung by BLM personnel, who patrol the trailheads daily.








FYI - the fine print reads:
"E-bikes are defined and managed as motor vehicles by BLM policy."
"E-bikes are permitted only on trails where motor vehicles are allowed."
"The use of e-bikes on non-motorized routes is prohibited."
Bureau of Land Management
Grand Junction Field Office
970-244-3000


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

#1ORBUST said:


> See that's in the standards. Metal sign posted larger then 12x12
> 
> Just the sticker alone stuck on a tree is so far out of standard it would not fly


It's a metal post or a bollard not a tree, which in some places are used to replace carsonites since people like to snap them off. Our ranger district is moving on from carsonites for this very reason in high traffic areas.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's probably been done but it would be interesting to put a power meter on an e-bike and see how the workout compares with the same rider on a bicycle.


You don't need a power meter. Just a heart rate monitor. I can ride a 20 mile loop with 17 year-old competitive riders and our data looks very similar. The difference? Younger hearts have higher maximums so heart rate "zones" will be off. To keep up, at 52, I have to dial in more assist than I would normally use on a ride with "normal people", and my sense of mortality has me falling way behind on downhill sections. Uphill, assist allows cresting at 170-180 bpm which is actually "working harder" than a 140 pound teenager at 190 bpm. Don't get hung up on the *result* of the effort or the pace.

Another thing to keep in mind for folks who aren't hell bent on dying while riding. If you don't use a heart rate monitor, you should get one. I am a huge fan of the QardioCore. Unfortunately they are hung up with FDA approval in the US. It's a ECG monitor/recorder. If you are over 50, please get one. I don't care how fit you think you are. It can save your life. We identified a problem with a 28 year-old that you would never believe could be real.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> We identified a problem with a 28 year-old that you would never believe could be real.


What did you find? I was riding with a heart rate monitor for a while after I got out of the Hospital and healed up enough to actually get on the bike again, but I quickly found that my Blood Pressure Medicine was keeping me below a max of 150, generally around 143 when pushing it. That was it at age 36. It has been a few years since I wore it, but perhaps it would be a good idea to pull it back out again. I just turned 39 in May. If you want to read details on what I went through at age 34, check out this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> You don't need a power meter. Just a heart rate monitor.


You could make an estimation based on that but I'd still be interested to see a power meter on one and see exactly how riders compare on e-bike vs. bicycle. Also would be interested to see average speeds based on that data.


----------



## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Curious how you measured/counted calorie burn when riding on an ebike. I'm actually asking, not trolling you. Does the Levo have this built in?


Hi yes the mission control app that interacts with the Levo has a calorie counter built in. I have no idea how accurate it is but it gives me something to compare ride to ride. It does ask for weight and height and does take the levels of assist into account. 
Regards,
Mountie


----------



## Mountie (Jun 12, 2017)

I chatted with a couple of police officers while out riding and they took my Levo for a spin they couldn't care less it was an ebike. Now one of them rides with us regularly with his Levo.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Mountie said:


> I chatted with a couple of police officers while out riding and they took my Levo for a spin they couldn't care less it was an ebike. Now one of them rides with us regularly with his Levo.


Unless those same police are the land managers this is a moot point.

Please note:

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/back-up-your-claims-they-subject-deletion-1051893.html


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> What did you find? I was riding with a heart rate monitor for a while after I got out of the Hospital and healed up enough to actually get on the bike again, but I quickly found that my Blood Pressure Medicine was keeping me below a max of 150, generally around 143 when pushing it. That was it at age 36. It has been a few years since I wore it, but perhaps it would be a good idea to pull it back out again. I just turned 39 in May. If you want to read details on what I went through at age 34, check out this thread:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html


I am not a doctor, so I don't want to use specific terms in his diagnosis incorrectly. In lay terms, he was found to have a congenital disorder that makes him prone to cardiac arrest. The ECG recorded an irregularity in his heart's electrical activity that would not show up on a simple HR monitor. Very rare, but similar to what can be more common as you age, in the sense that the heart's ability to maintain a proper rhythm under heavy loads can change with age. This is what I was told by doctors. When you get to your 50s and you start having people your age who are in "great shape" dying or even surviving heart attacks, it makes you wonder. As I said, the QardioCore has yet to gain FDA approval in the US. The word is that it's a tool that needs to be used in concert with a doctor and may end up requiring a prescription to buy. Maybe that's legit, and maybe it's people protecting their $turf$. I don't know.

I will read about your experience with interest. Enjoy riding in good health.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> You could make an estimation based on that but I'd still be interested to see a power meter on one and see exactly how riders compare on e-bike vs. bicycle. Also would be interested to see average speeds based on that data.


I have played with Garmin and PowerTaps and it is hard to get accurate data in my experience. I thought it would be simple to ride with assist off, then compare same ride with assist on. The problem is that the assist is responding to how much pressure you are applying to the pedals at any instant, and so is the power meter. If you look at the data over time, someone is lying or is wrong. Lol. The assist never seems to be delivering what the spec numbers claim. I'd be curious how they come up with their numbers. It seems like there is a disconnect that I would describe as similar to wheel versus crank HP in a car. The meters are measuring "wheel" HP and the bike is claiming "crank" numbers. I ride a decently hilly dirt loop and the data was worthless. On the road at 15mph, to avoid the beginning of where assist ends, you get numbers reported by the power meter that don't seem intuitively correct. The meter reports how much power it thinks you are generating, but until you get to a setting where you are supposedly getting 60 percent of the assist capability, the meter's readings indicate no assist...but you know that this isn't true. You can feel it. If the "charts" show that it takes 200 watts to maintain a given pace under a given set of parameters, and the meter is reporting 150 watts...but you KNOW you are getting more than 50 watts of assist, it just seems suspicious. A better way to measure, in my experience, is to do the math on what the battery capacity is, then look at your total output as measured by your computer. You know that some of what your computer thinks you generated over a 30 mile ride is actually assist. THAT math is interesting. I ride with a friend on the road and we can record the same level of exertion over a 30 mile ride. Me at highest setting depleting a 460wh battery in less than two hours. Him on a $20,000 unobtanium road bike. He loses me on the downhill. I catch back up on the uphill. We end up with 17-18mph average speeds. If we were to "race", I would not be able to keep up regardless of assist because of rolling resistance and gearing. Long winded comment, but it really is interesting how assist works. The missing data point is the efficiency from battery to the wheels. 460wh does not equal 230 watts for 2 hours. It's less than that, but how much less?


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> If you want to read details on what I went through at age 34, check out this thread:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html


Wow. That was scary to read. Glad that you are OK. I was particularly struck by your experience leading up to it. Feeling great...getting back in shape.

I have no idea if something like a QardioCore would gather helpful info for someone with your history, but look it up. I have no affiliation. I'm just a 52 year old guy who has no idea if he has a day or 40 years left and (possibly naively) thinks he can use technology to improve his odds.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

One of the places I ride a fair bit here on Van Isle - Cumberland issued a statement clarifying motorized use of trails.

Policies - United Riders of Cumberland | United Riders of Cumberland


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

So what does this mean? The united riders of Cumberland looks like a bike club with no means of enforcement of the ability to make any sort of rules or bi-laws.
I give them credit for taking a stand and not skirting the issue like most clubs by keeping their head in the sand.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rlee said:


> So what does this mean? The united riders of Cumberland looks like a bike club with no means of enforcement of the ability to make any sort of rules or bi-laws.
> I give them credit for taking a stand and not skirting the issue like most clubs by keeping their head in the sand.


UROC manages the trails on behalf of the landowners [both the local community for part of the network close to town and a forestry company for the rest]. If there were problems they'd have to get the local authorities out to enforce access to the land just like they would for any other unauthorized use.

I've never seen cops on any island trails. We seem to self-police pretty effectively. Clarity on what is and is not allowed makes that easier.


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

rlee said:


> So what does this mean? The united riders of Cumberland looks like a bike club with no means of enforcement of the ability to make any sort of rules or bi-laws.
> I give them credit for taking a stand and not skirting the issue like most clubs by keeping their head in the sand.


There are a lot of UROC members and all the local shops support UROC as well. The word will get out and it looks like the ebike problem has been nipped in the bud, thank God. The logging companies asked that motorized vehicles be reported this summer.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

alphazz said:


> I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.
> 
> The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.
> 
> Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.


I've never seen a guy who doesn't ride bomb a hill at full speed on anything. That imbicile might try that once but never again after the first crash.

But I do agree with your point. Recless mountain bikers are more problematic than ebikes IMO.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

So as a uroc member what are you going to do when you see a old guy out on his e-bike, or a couple of rippers? Self policing is great but we all have to take a part. But even though I have informed people of trail rules I don't want to be known as that "Trail Nazi"


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rlee said:


> So as a uroc member what are you going to do when you see a old guy out on his e-bike, or a couple of rippers? Self policing is great but we all have to take a part. But even though I have informed people of trail rules I don't want to be known as that "Trail Nazi"


It would cause me no grief to tell someone that they were not allowed to ride a motorized vehicle on trails that were clearly posted as non-motorized. That's not being a "trail nazi".


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

vikb said:


> It would cause me no grief to tell someone that they were not allowed to ride a motorized vehicle on trails that were clearly posted as non-motorized. That's not being a "trail nazi".


I'm not sure where everyone is from on this thread, but here in Southeast Michigan, if you were to tell someone on an E-bike they were not allowed on the trail, two things would result. The rider would smile at you and ride away, or, the rider would show you his middle finger and ride away.

No land manager, ranger, police, or other quasi forest enforcer could do, or would do a damn thing about it besides post another sign up at the trailhead.

Just the facts.

Sorry, but when enough people buy these bikes over the next 5 years, they'll be commonplace. And, most likely all these butt-hurt anti-moped types will just be left in the "dust". Figuratively and literally.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

E-bikes are not the first motorized vehicles that have ever tried to use non-motorized trails in the history of non-motorized trails and so far the current approach has worked pretty well.

I've personally told a few people who were in the wrong place to leave and they did. 

If what you are saying is e-bikers will poach their way into legitimacy I don't see it.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Zerort said:


> And, most likely all these butt-hurt anti-*moped* types will just be left in the "dust".


Moped is a banned term in this sub-forum for e-bikes so please don't use it. :nono:


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

vikb said:


> Moped is a banned term in this sub-forum for e-bikes so please don't use it. :nono:


Oh sorry. Lol.

(Smiles and rides away)


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Zerort said:


> Oh sorry. Lol.
> 
> (Smiles and rides away)


Cunning. If only mountain bikers had been SMRT enough to come up with your plan we'd have full access to wilderness areas. It's so simple we overlooked it! Dang!


----------



## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Zerort said:


> I'm not sure where everyone is from on this thread, but here in Southeast Michigan, if you were to tell someone on an E-bike they were not allowed on the trail, two things would result. The rider would smile at you and ride away, or, the rider would show you his middle finger and ride away.
> 
> No land manager, ranger, police, or other quasi forest enforcer could do, or would do a damn thing about it besides post another sign up at the trailhead.
> 
> ...


So what I hear you saying is that because no land manager, ranger, police et. al. would do anything, it is OK to just ride anywhere, even though trails like our lovely new DTE trail system is clearly posted with a no e-bike sign, with the blessing of the land manager? Do you really think that will drive motor bikes towards greater acceptance?


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

deuxdiesel said:


> So what I hear you saying is that because no land manager, ranger, police et. al. would do anything, it is OK to just ride anywhere, even though trails like our lovely new DTE trail system is clearly posted with a no e-bike sign, with the blessing of the land manager? Do you really think that will drive motor bikes towards greater acceptance?


Haha, you don't even need to pedal at DTE.

And yes, in 5 years you will be seeing a lot of E bikes on the trails here in Michigan. Brighton, Pontiac, Poto, etc.


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Our local trail system is a State Recreation Area and falls under the jurisdiction of the DNR. Rules for biking trails are “no motorized vehicles”. In a chat with the local DNR guy, he said that that is generally interpreted as referring to dirt bikes, snowmobiles and 4-wheelers and that e-bikes are a grey area — they haven’t formulated an actual enforcement policy yet. What few instances they’ve seen of e-bikes on the singletrack MTB trails haven’t been an issue. They don’t appear to be hurting anything and there haven’t been any complaints. He did say that, personally, he’d be inclined to selectively enforce the rule for folks on an e-bike with a throttle.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If I was a land manager where I ride I would allow Class1 in all Parks with the exception of one crowded one. The others could easily handle them.


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

dup


----------



## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Zerort said:


> Haha, you don't even need to pedal at DTE.
> 
> And yes, in 5 years you will be seeing a lot of E bikes on the trails here in Michigan. Brighton, Pontiac, Poto, etc.


So you are OK with ignoring posted signs and trail rules? Is this the e-bike user mantra?


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

deuxdiesel said:


> So you are OK with ignoring posted signs and trail rules? Is this the e-bike user mantra?


I don't think there are signs at each trail in this area. 
If there are I haven't seen them.

I dont ride DTE. Some others I do ride with my ebike.

I can't speak for other ebike riders.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I've run across a few. I have no interest in riding one (other then a parking lot demo I did), let alone owning one. Just doesn't interest me. I haven't had any problems with them, and if I did I would chock it up to the rider, not the bike.

And if I found one riding somewhere where it is posted that it isn't legal, I would just leave it be. I've already had a group of horse people in my own town (where I also have horses) discriminate against mountain bikes in a legal riding area just because they don't like bikes. In one of my common riding areas a kid I know has had a run in with a hiker where the hiker insists bikes destroy the environment. We assume that same hiker is also the one responsible for trying to booby trap the trail.

It sucks when you are essentially doing nothing wrong, and a few bad perceptions, even if false, restrict your ability to have a good time. So why all of you are fighting each other one what bike can and can't use the trails, you are just making it worse for ALL of us.

Share the trails. Don't be a dick.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

👍 I like your post Sidewalk. Particularly the part that you'd have an issue with the rider, not the bike. Makes perfect sense.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

But isn't that the problem, the rider and not the bike. If someone rides their whole life and gets old or injured and gets a ebike, I support them. It's when someone who hasn't learned any trail etiquette and hasn't put in any sweat equity goes and buys a ebike and starts riding full power that we are going to have problems. It is no different then someone with a moto background buying a DH bike and shuttling your XC trails. 
Anyone who has ridden for a while knows the unwritten rules about how to conduct themselves. A new mtb rider learns these gradually. But any dillhole with a tax return can buy a fast ebike. And that same dillhole will only buy a fast one.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^No different than a Noob on a mtb. You need skills to go fast. I doubt someone new to mtb is going to go balls out. Can't, they'll be in the hospital!


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

You guys make it sound like mountain biking has some elaborate and arcane set of behavior rules . Common courtesy will suffice. New mountain bike riders and new e-bikers on mountain biking trails will learn as they go. You'll be occasionally irritated with the newbies on the trails, just as you're irritated by newbies on the road, at work, or in the TSA lines at the airport. Suck it up. Your reality is evolving.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rlee said:


> It is no different then someone with a moto background buying a DH bike and shuttling your XC trails.


So what's wrong with that?
I get moto guys out on mtbs all the time.

I also see tons of mountain bikers riding that don't do any trailwork ie 'sweat equity'.
Probably the vast majority. Should we also be trying to keep them off the trails?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm an ex moto guy and those were some of the best times ever, but too much titanium in the body now! I'll respectfully ride anything with two wheels. I don't see Ebikes taking over the trail systems. They are very costly. They do appeal to current or prior dirt bike riders, but it's all good. Most of these riders have very good skills and would be less likely to cause an accident. I also believe the majority of emtb riders will be 40+ in age. Will there be a few young guys ripping junk? Yes, but such a small percentage, who cares?


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Maybe I live in a different area than you. We have a shuttle area that is a free for all, and it is great. DH, Ebike, Xc whatever. I don't think there has ever been user conflict.
But our main xc riding area has horses, dogs, beginners, and hikers. People don't or cant ride fast in a lot of this area. Someone who wanted to burn laps would end up in a collision with another user. That is why I said shuttling your XC trails. I referred moto guys because all of the ones I know have good skills and haven't been around enough to know whats up.
Most people who are fit and ride a lot, the ones that can go fast in a multiuse area, know about the conflicts we have. It will only take one e-bike passing a horse on the up trail to become a big problem. Now the biker probably isn't the issue but the equestrian is the most to blame for riding a horse that is afraid of a squirrel farting in the woods. I mean train your Dog, train your horse. But I have never seen a equestrian banned from a trail network.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I don't see Ebikes taking over the trail systems. They are very costly.


Mountain biking is expensive, an average one is ~2K. I'm guessing there's already some e-bikes in that price range and I'm sure they will be a lot more coming. Mal-Wart will soon be stuffed with them starting @ $299.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rlee;13361515 But I have never seen a equestrian banned from a trail network.[/QUOTE said:


> I know plenty of MTB trails that don't allow horses. Rode a bunch of them yesterday as a matter of fact. "No Horses" signs and everything.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

rlee said:


> Maybe I live in a different area than you. We have a shuttle area that is a free for all, and it is great. DH, Ebike, Xc whatever. I don't think there has ever been user conflict.
> But our main xc riding area has horses, dogs, beginners, and hikers. People don't or cant ride fast in a lot of this area. Someone who wanted to burn laps would end up in a collision with another user. That is why I said shuttling your XC trails. I referred moto guys because all of the ones I know have good skills and haven't been around enough to know whats up.
> Most people who are fit and ride a lot, the ones that can go fast in a multiuse area, know about the conflicts we have. It will only take one e-bike passing a horse on the up trail to become a big problem. Now the biker probably isn't the issue but the equestrian is the most to blame for riding a horse that is afraid of a squirrel farting in the woods. I mean train your Dog, train your horse. But I have never seen a equestrian banned from a trail network.


Gotcha! Yeah I also run into that all the time. What pisses me off more is dudes that take their first time girlfriend rider on trails, WAY OVER HER HEAD! I've seen them carted off on stretchers. Terrible. We all have the same issues, but riding is so damn fun!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Mountain biking is expensive, an average one is ~2K. I'm guessing there's already some e-bikes in that price range and I'm sure they will be a lot more coming. Mal-Wart will soon be stuffed with them starting @ $299.


I just don't see Walmart bikes where I ride. Maybe bike paths but nowhere else.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I know plenty of MTB trails that don't allow horses. Rode a bunch of them yesterday as a matter of fact. "No Horses" signs and everything.


The best is when all other users have to yield to mtbrs! Hell yeah 😀


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> I know plenty of MTB trails that don't allow horses. Rode a bunch of them yesterday as a matter of fact. "No Horses" signs and everything.


From a trail system I built. Best restrictions ever!









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

We'd be riding that in CA since a Class 1 or 2 e-MTB isn't a "motorized" vehicle, it's an electric bicycle by state law. The places that want to ban electric bicycles (and I have encountered two) specifically state "no electric bicycles". However, I won't be the test case for the law.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I just don't see Walmart bikes where I ride. Maybe bike paths but nowhere else.


I didn't mean to imply that you'll start seeing Walmart bikes on your trails, just that they will become mainstream. Also that cost won't be any more of a prohibitive factor for e-bikes than it already is for mtb's.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Costs will always be higher for equally comparable mtb/emtb models, if they have the same specs, etc, but the fact of the matter is that if you're not chasing lightwieght, which is less of an issue if you have a motor and battery anyway, you can get a comparably _performing_ emtb for not a huge price premium.

Luna is just a kitbike maker now, but they have a fully integrated model on the way.

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/ask-lunacycle/luna-cycle-new-ebikes/46227-luna-apollo

Currently, I'd argue that their kitbikes would make most non enthusiast level emtb riders happy at the same price point of a decent mtb. Just proof it can be done, and will be done as well by the established bike companies. Price will be less of a barrier moving forward.

https://lunacycle.com/mountain/


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

fos'l said:


> We'd be riding that in CA since a Class 1 or 2 e-MTB isn't a "motorized" vehicle, it's an electric bicycle by state law. The places that want to ban electric bicycles (and I have encountered two) specifically state "no electric bicycles". However, I won't be the test case for the law.


You wouldn't though. California's law is based in the motor vehicle code and only applies to paved and state owned systems. Each municipality and land owner can further restrict access. It's your responsibility to know the access rules for each area you ride. It's the same in Utah where this trail system is. If you don't know the rules, you'll pay dearly. As this sign says, it's a $500 fine. What it doesn't mention is your ebike will be i impounded, you'll be given a ticket for trespassing and also vandalism.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Sidewalk said:


> ...
> Share the trails. Don't be a dick.


Another voice of reason is refreshing. 

Catfish ...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

motocatfish said:


> Another voice of reason is refreshing.


You mean another person who agrees with you?

"Share the trails. Don't be a dick."

I think everyone agrees with that^ I know I do, but share with who and where is what's contentious, and just because one person might disagree with another doesn't necessarily make either one a dick. If that were true 100% of people would be dicks.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Sidewalk said:


> I've run across a few. I have no interest in riding one (other then a parking lot demo I did), let alone owning one. Just doesn't interest me. I haven't had any problems with them, and if I did I would chock it up to the rider, not the bike.
> 
> And if I found one riding somewhere where it is posted that it isn't legal, I would just leave it be. I've already had a group of horse people in my own town (where I also have horses) discriminate against mountain bikes in a legal riding area just because they don't like bikes. In one of my common riding areas a kid I know has had a run in with a hiker where the hiker insists bikes destroy the environment. We assume that same hiker is also the one responsible for trying to booby trap the trail.
> 
> ...


 Bikes don't have motors, FYI.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> I just don't see Walmart bikes where I ride. Maybe bike paths but nowhere else.


You will start seeing them once they put motors on them and sell them for cheap. The only reason you don't see them now is because they are tanks and it's hard to ride them up there.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Won't Walmart Ebikes be heavier?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Silentfoe said:


> You wouldn't though. California's law is based in the motor vehicle code and only applies to paved and state owned systems. Each municipality and land owner can further restrict access. It's your responsibility to know the access rules for each area you ride. It's the same in Utah where this trail system is. If you don't know the rules, you'll pay dearly. As this sign says, it's a $500 fine. What it doesn't mention is your ebike will be i impounded, you'll be given a ticket for trespassing and also vandalism.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


My point was that sign doesn't restrict. I don't ride where it's illegal since the superintendent of county trails has decided to ban e-MTB's. As I've stated before, there are many other places where it's legal to ride, so it's not a problem.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

My point is, yes it does. Your ebike falls under motorized vehicles, even in California. Unless you are in an area that specifically allows it. Land managers don't have the time or money to put up a sign banning everyhthing they don't want on their trails. Maybe we should put up a "No Elephants" sign?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I thought Ca defines Ebikes as bicycles? Thus, not motorized?


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Gutch said:


> I thought Ca defines Ebikes as bicycles? Thus, not motorized?


Once again. Only in the motor vehicle code, which only applies to roads, paved paths and state owned land. Everywhere else it's a motorized vehicle. Even in the first 3 places mentioned, they can be further restricted.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You will start seeing them once they put motors on them and sell them for cheap. The only reason you don't see them now is because they are tanks and it's hard to ride them up there.


I dont beleive this will happen. If an uninitiated novice took a Walmart bike and slapped on a cheap hub wheel and climb up to your single track he would not have a very good time. His brakes would probably fail on the way down and the suspension would be shite.

So, sure they may do it once or twice but it will not be a regular occurance.

This is coming from a guy who owns a few different homemade and production ebikes.

Your local singletracks are too treacherous for most novice bikers.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> I thought Ca defines Ebikes as bicycles? Thus, not motorized?


How do you not know this yet?


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> I dont beleive this will happen. If an uninitiated novice took a Walmart bike and slapped on a cheap hub wheel and climb up to your single track he would not have a very good time. His brakes would probably fail on the way down and the suspension would be shite.
> 
> So, sure they may do it once or twice but it will not be a regular occurance.
> 
> ...


We'll see, I can picture all those guys you see on Walmart Photos, getting an ebike and trying it out on the trails.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> How do you not know this yet?


I don't pay much attention to California. Never have. Plus, I'm not as sharp as you 😂


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Bikes don't have motors, FYI.


E-"BIKES" have them.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You will start seeing them once they put motors on them and sell them for cheap. The only reason you don't see them now is because they are tanks and it's hard to ride them up there.


Are you telling me that if I was demoing a 20lb FS 500wh Turbo levo you would not want to at least test ride the bike?


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> We'll see, I can picture all those guys you see on Walmart Photos, getting an ebike and trying it out on the trails.


Doood...have you ridden with any novice riders? I'm trying to get some of my friends(>30yo) to start riding and some of them are afraid to go off a curb on a bike. Its a feat for them to stand up on the pedals while coasting. These are the kind of people that would buy a Walmart bike. There is no way a Walmart bike buyer is going down the widow Maker. Even with the motor they will probably not have the skill to balance the bike to ride uphill.

Biking is not as easy to normal humans as it is for mid level and experience bikers.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Gutch said:


> ^No different than a Noob on a mtb. You need skills to go fast. I doubt someone new to mtb is going to go balls out. Can't, they'll be in the hospital!


I feel like most people on this thread dont understand this. They seems to think a noob who has never ridden a bike is going to spend 10k on a 100mph ebike and rip ass up and down the trails. They'd die and they know it. I'm sure it exists but so do serial killers and meteor strikes, things also so rare we don't need to worry about it.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

^^^^agree


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> Are you telling me that if I was demoing a 20lb FS 500wh Turbo levo you would not want to at least test ride the bike?


I wouldn't have to demo your bike, because I'd already own one!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I feel like most people on this thread dont understand this. They seems to think a noob who has never ridden a bike is going to spend 10k on a 100mph ebike and rip ass up and down the trails. They'd die and they know it. I'm sure it exists but so do serial killers and meteor strikes, things also so rare we don't need to worry about it.


Some people do have way more money than common sense. While it certainly will not be the majority of riders, it will happen.

Just google "ford mustangs crashing at car meets"........ more money than common sense.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> I feel like most people on this thread dont understand this. They seems to think a noob who has never ridden a bike is going to spend 10k on a 100mph ebike and rip ass up and down the trails. They'd die and they know it. I'm sure it exists but so do serial killers and meteor strikes, things also so rare we don't need to worry about it.


We have to understand we are noobs, no skillset, no Trail etiquette, no fitness, and no love for nature! What I can't understand is why they spend their time with us on this forum?


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> Are you telling me that if I was demoing a 20lb FS 500wh Turbo levo you would not want to at least test ride the bike?


I really wouldn't. Had my accident on motorcycles and I am done with them. Especially something with a ton of power.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Gutch said:


> I wouldn't have to demo your bike, because I'd already own one!


I don't think that is possible since there is currently no such thing as a 20lb full suspension 500wh turbo levo. But it will be awesome if they are ever able to make one.


----------



## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Zerort said:


> I don't think there are signs at each trail in this area.
> If there are I haven't seen them.
> 
> I dont ride DTE. Some others I do ride with my ebike.
> ...


Which is it? Previously you said you don't have to pedal at DTE. Now you say you don't ride it. Hmmm. Many of us have worked very hard at building and maintaining our local trails, and have great relationships with the land managers. Don't be surprised if e-bike riders on these trails get reported.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Some people do have way more money than common sense. While it certainly will not be the majority of riders, it will happen.
> 
> Just google "ford mustangs crashing at car meets"........ more money than common sense.


Absolutely agree that there are plenty of people with more money than common sense but very few are also daredevils out to make jackass 4. But yes it will happen just as serial killers and asteroid impacts.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Doood...have you ridden with any novice riders? I'm trying to get some of my friends(>30yo) to start riding and some of them are afraid to go off a curb on a bike. Its a feat for them to stand up on the pedals while coasting. These are the kind of people that would buy a Walmart bike. There is no way a Walmart bike buyer is going down the widow Maker. Even with the motor they will probably not have the skill to balance the bike to ride uphill.
> 
> Biking is not as easy to normal humans as it is for mid level and experience bikers.


I'm having to really resist posting what I think of your friends, I'm thinking of a word I very rarely use in this type of context. If this is truly the case, they need to stay away from even beginner trail no matter what they are riding. And a motor is only going to get them into more trouble (oops, I mean one of those magical ebikes that offer fairy dust assistance).


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I really wouldn't. Had my accident on motorcycles and I am done with them. Especially something with a ton of power.


500W isn't exactly a 'ton of power'.
My 13 y/o responsibly handles machines with ~90 times that.
Not on mtb trails of course.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> If this is truly the case, they need to stay away from even beginner trail no matter what they are riding.


I actually love riding with raw beginners. Give a few pointers and some bike adjustments and let 'em have at. We pretty much all started there right?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Absolutely agree that there are plenty of people with more money than common sense but very few are also daredevils out to make jackass 4. But yes it will happen just as serial killers and asteroid impacts.


It will happen more than Serial Killers and Asteroid impacts, unfortunately. It will also happen on film and be posted to Youtube.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> 500W isn't exactly a 'ton of power'.
> My 13 y/o responsibly handles machines with ~90 times that.
> Not on mtb trails of course.


Not on mtb trails of course.

Nothing wrong with motors. Just not for me. I am all for kids on dirt bikes though.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I actually love riding with raw beginners. Give a few pointers and some bike adjustments and let 'em have at. We pretty much all started there right?


I think we all started out on something far different than an ebike. I started on a SS huffy. Not on a machine that could hit 20mph on flats and uphill as long as I could pedal it. Not even close.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think we all started out on something far different than an ebike. I started on a SS huffy. Not on a machine that could hit 20mph on flats and uphill as long as I could pedal it. Not even close.


me too...Huffy Thunder Road...absolutely destroyed it. Had to develop muscles to participate and learn technique. Granted, I probably rode it in places I shouldn't have...neighbors yards, the church side yard, maybe through a few gardens in the neighbors yard after missing a line or a jump...but I was doing less damage than the punx who were vandalizing and breaking into cars


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> Doood...have you ridden with any novice riders? I'm trying to get some of my friends(>30yo) to start riding and some of them are afraid to go off a curb on a bike. Its a feat for them to stand up on the pedals while coasting. These are the kind of people that would buy a Walmart bike. There is no way a Walmart bike buyer is going down the widow Maker. Even with the motor they will probably not have the skill to balance the bike to ride uphill.
> 
> Biking is not as easy to normal humans as it is for mid level and experience bikers.





slapheadmofo said:


> I actually love riding with raw beginners. Give a few pointers and some bike adjustments and let 'em have at. We pretty much all started there right?


I don't mean we shouldn't help and encourage beginners, I'm just saying if new riders "are afraid to go off a curb on a bike" and "they will probably not have the skill to balance the bike to ride uphill" then they are not ready for trails in any form, at least none of the trails around me, not even the beginner trails. There is one mostly flat wide path along a river in the NPS park near me that they could probably handle but it is normally pretty crowded with walkers, dogs, runners, casual cyclist and "heading for the singletrack" mountain bikers. From this mellow trail, we do get folks on mountain bikes who bite off more than they can chew by heading up the singletrack, often without helmets. Maybe some get there first taste and come back better prepared.

And I don't think an ebike is a good starting point to later get into mountain biking. I really doubt any ebiker will be riding in anything other than maximum assist and I don't see them deciding they want to then make it harder by giving up the motor.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think we all started out on something far different than an ebike. I started on a SS huffy. Not on a machine that could hit 20mph on flats and uphill as long as I could pedal it. Not even close.





Phantastic79 said:


> Doood...have you ridden with any novice riders? I'm trying to get some of my friends(>30yo) to start riding and some of them are afraid to go off a curb on a bike. Its a feat for them to stand up on the pedals while coasting. These are the kind of people that would buy a Walmart bike. There is no way a Walmart bike buyer is going down the widow Maker. Even with the motor they will probably not have the skill to balance the bike to ride uphill.
> 
> Biking is not as easy to normal humans as it is for mid level and experience bikers.


Mountain Biking is not supposed to be easy...it is supposed to be a bit of a challenge. And I am a normal human, and biking got easier the more I practiced...AND, the more I failed. It sounds to me like your friends are afraid of failure in general. And I think that is the big problem with many things now-a-days. The fear of failure, and having to break down barriers to do things. In reality, everyone does not get a trophy. What kept me coming back was that it WASN'T easy. It wasn't an "instant success" activity.

Like chaz said above. The E bike thing is most likely NOT going to get them into, or keep them interested in the activity when the reality of many of the challenges of mountain biking come up that can not be overcome by a motor....like balance, awareness in off camber terrain and situations, how to manual and hop, how to corner properly....these are foundational things that are learned by failure first...falling, wrecking, doing it again and rethinking the parameters. Mountain biking isn't just climbing and descending. Mountain biking isn't "safe"...and it isn't easy. The ebike gives an illusion of accomplishment in this situation.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Like chaz said above. The E bike thing is most likely NOT going to get them into, or keep them interested in the activity when the reality of many of the challenges of mountain biking come up that can not be overcome by a motor....like balance, awareness in off camber terrain and situations, how to manual and hop, how to corner properly....these are foundational things that are learned by failure first...falling, wrecking, doing it again and rethinking the parameters. Mountain biking isn't just climbing and descending. Mountain biking isn't "safe"...and it isn't easy. The ebike gives an illusion of accomplishment in this situation.


I sort of disagree. A little extra power makes many mtb. maneuvers so much easier IME, when I'm in (relatively) good shape technical features, especially technical climbs are way easier and it isn't because my skills have improved. I could see how an e-bike might actually accelerate (ha,ha) learning certain skills.

*I am not promoting or advocating e-bikes, personally I like bicycles. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Mountain Biking is not supposed to be easy...it is supposed to be a bit of a challenge. And I am a normal human, and biking got easier the more I practiced...AND, the more I failed. It sounds to me like your friends are afraid of failure in general. And I think that is the big problem with many things now-a-days. The fear of failure, and having to break down barriers to do things. In reality, everyone does not get a trophy. What kept me coming back was that it WASN'T easy. It wasn't an "instant success" activity.
> 
> Like chaz said above. The E bike thing is most likely NOT going to get them into, or keep them interested in the activity when the reality of many of the challenges of mountain biking come up that can not be overcome by a motor....like balance, awareness in off camber terrain and situations, how to manual and hop, how to corner properly....these are foundational things that are learned by failure first...falling, wrecking, doing it again and rethinking the parameters. Mountain biking isn't just climbing and descending. Mountain biking isn't "safe"...and it isn't easy. The ebike gives an illusion of accomplishment in this situation.


I couldnt agree with you more on this. Ebikes are getting cheaper. And there seems to be this fear of masses of noobs buying $300.00 ebikes and crowding your local single track, possibly shutting them down. That is most likely not gonna happen as there is more to biking than the climb. The ebike people will mostly stick to riding on open wide green runs. Their bikes and mainly their skillset are not ready to handle anything more challenging.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Zerort said:


> E-"BIKES" have them.


 Correct, it's important not to consider them the same for access or trail management issues.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Mountain Biking is not supposed to be easy...it is supposed to be a bit of a challenge. And I am a normal human, and biking got easier the more I practiced...AND, the more I failed. It sounds to me like your friends are afraid of failure in general. And I think that is the big problem with many things now-a-days. The fear of failure, and having to break down barriers to do things. In reality, everyone does not get a trophy. What kept me coming back was that it WASN'T easy. It wasn't an "instant success" activity.
> 
> Like chaz said above. The E bike thing is most likely NOT going to get them into, or keep them interested in the activity when the reality of many of the challenges of mountain biking come up that can not be overcome by a motor....like balance, awareness in off camber terrain and situations, how to manual and hop, how to corner properly....these are foundational things that are learned by failure first...falling, wrecking, doing it again and rethinking the parameters. Mountain biking isn't just climbing and descending. Mountain biking isn't "safe"...and it isn't easy. The ebike gives an illusion of accomplishment in this situation.


I agree. I wouldn't start my kids on an ebike either. BMX first! But if others do, IDC. The only advantage of the Levo is on steep technical climbs where you can maintain more momentum with the assist. Other obstacles or "trail furniture " if you will are quite harder on the Levo. This is only what I experienced.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> BMX first!


Absolutely!


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> I sort of disagree. A little extra power makes many mtb. maneuvers so much easier IME, when I'm in (relatively) good shape technical features, especially technical climbs are way easier and it isn't because my skills have improved. I could see how an e-bike might actually accelerate (ha,ha) learning certain skills.
> 
> *I am not promoting or advocating e-bikes, personally I like bicycles. Just thinking out loud.


Yes. This can be true. But you still need to balance and corner etc...

I basically started off mountain biking on an ebike. But I had ridden bikes all throughout my youth. I didn't even own a bike through highschool and rode on my friends handlebars for years to get around town. I have not seen this in years...do people still do that?

Anyway...starting off on an ebike allowed me to go to places my body couldn't take me and do more downhill runs way more often accelerating my descending skills. I've only been Mountain biking on the actual mountain for like a year and over all my progress has skyrocketed. Even my biking cardio has increased substantially.

Wanting to change things up I recently purchased a 21lb tallboy and have been riding the **** out if it for the last few weeks. Can't do as many runs but it's amazing how fun a light bike can be on the climb. I think I'll still ride my e-bike when i want to explore a new area or if I'm really limited on time but starting off on an e-bike has turned me into a MTB enthusiast. My results may be unusual and not the norm but who knows.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I just don't see Walmart bikes where I ride. Maybe bike paths but nowhere else.


Same here.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Mountain Biking is not supposed to be easy...it is supposed to be a bit of a challenge.....Mountain biking isn't "safe"...and it isn't easy. The ebike gives an illusion of accomplishment in this situation.


We're not talking about mountain biking though, we're talking about e-biking.
Direct comparisons aren't valid - it's its own game. Some people may never be interested in mountain biking at all and just stick to e-biking. So what, as long as they're riding legal trails?


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> We're not talking about mountain biking though, we're talking about e-biking.
> Direct comparisons aren't valid - it's its own game. Some people may never be interested in mountain biking at all and just stick to e-biking. So what, as long as they're riding legal trails?


I do both. Other than the exertion level, they're exactly the same.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

sXeXBMXer said:


> Mountain Biking is not supposed to be easy...it is supposed to be a bit of a challenge. And I am a normal human, and biking got easier the more I practiced...AND, the more I failed. It sounds to me like your friends are afraid of failure in general. And I think that is the big problem with many things now-a-days. The fear of failure, and having to break down barriers to do things. In reality, everyone does not get a trophy. What kept me coming back was that it WASN'T easy. It wasn't an "instant success" activity.


For me, mountain biking isn't about doing something hard. It's about doing something fun. Seems pretty easy to me.... And it's even easier on an e-mtb.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

AGarcia said:


> I do both. Other than the exertion level, they're exactly the same.


I agree, with the exception that emtb is a little faster pace and you can cover alot more trail in a shorter period of time. On the flip side you cant go as far on the ebike if you are riding very long 5 mileish climbs. Your battery will be toast and you will be left with an unassisted tank.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

AGarcia said:


> I do both. Other than the exertion level, they're exactly the same.


Adding the motor makes it a different game. 
That's the way it is; accept it.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think we all started out on something far different than an ebike. I started on a SS huffy. Not on a machine that could hit 20mph on flats and uphill as long as I could pedal it. Not even close.





Gutch said:


> I agree. I wouldn't start my kids on an ebike either. BMX first! But if others do, IDC. The only advantage of the Levo is on steep technical climbs where you can maintain more momentum with the assist. Other obstacles or "trail furniture " if you will are quite harder on the Levo. This is only what I experienced.


Hell yeah. I stared on BMX, and still ride it today as well...though not as well or carefree...still get air, but no crazy 580 whip-flip-chilli sickle stuff


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I sort of disagree. A little extra power makes many mtb. maneuvers so much easier IME, when I'm in (relatively) good shape technical features, especially technical climbs are way easier and it isn't because my skills have improved. I could see how an e-bike might actually accelerate (ha,ha) learning certain skills.
> 
> *I am not promoting or advocating e-bikes, personally I like bicycles. Just thinking out loud.


I agree with you on the extra power making many maneuvers easier but this is very much an experience thing. I've explained this to newbies but when they lack confidence and there is a price to pay for failure, i.e. falling in the rocks, it's hard to get them to accept that going faster is the way to go.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

AGarcia said:


> I do both. Other than the exertion level, they're exactly the same.


 Hmmm, interesting point. So, no one would need or want an e bike if they just rode 3/4 power, got it.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

deuxdiesel said:


> Which is it? Previously you said you don't have to pedal at DTE. Now you say you don't ride it. Hmmm. Many of us have worked very hard at building and maintaining our local trails, and have great relationships with the land managers. Don't be surprised if e-bike riders on these trails get reported.


Been there once.

Don't ride there on my ebike. What would be the point?


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm, interesting point. So, no one would need or want an e bike if they just rode 3/4 power, got it.


I don't understand what you are trying to convey. Can you elaborate?


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I agree, with the exception that emtb is a little faster pace and you can cover alot more trail in a shorter period of time. On the flip side you cant go as far on the ebike if you are riding very long 5 mileish climbs. Your battery will be toast and you will be left with an unassisted tank.


I guess it depends. I've I'm riding an emtb with buddies that are not, then I'm riding the same pace they are, just with less exertion. If I'm riding with owners of other emtbs, yeah the pace is probably a bit faster and we're covering more miles in the same time. But the experience of riding emtb versus a regular bike is otherwise the about the same, at least for me it is. I enjoy the outdoors, chat with my buddies while riding (I never ride alone), maneuver around obstacles, charge down hills... Pretty much the same as I would on a regular mtb. Same thing...

It may not be for others like Mr. Slaphead.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

E-mtbs aren't going away. Meanwhile, it's quite possible that most trails will ban all e-mtbs in perpetuity. 

Ideally, reponsible e-mtbers on Class 1s will ignore the ban, and ride the trails with impunity. Much in the same way responsible mtbers break speed limits (often by a significant amount) with impunity, because they understand when it's okay and when it's not okay.

One way to ride a Class 1 responsibly is to ride when nobody else is around. 

Another way to is turn the assist all the way down when others are around, and turn it back up when they're gone.

Folks who ride irresponsibly, endangering others or damaging the trails, can be dealt with regardless of what they're riding.

Turning a blind eye to the responsible Class 1 riders, with respect to the ban, effectively silences a growing group of folks who might otherwise fight hard to gain legal access. With Class 1s out of the discussion, the rest of the ebikers stand little chance of gaining access.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

AGarcia said:


> I guess it depends. I've I'm riding an emtb with buddies that are not, then I'm riding the same pace they are, just with less exertion. If I'm riding with owners of other emtbs, yeah the pace is probably a bit faster and we're covering more miles in the same time. But the experience of riding emtb versus a regular bike is otherwise the about the same, at least for me it is. I enjoy the outdoors, chat with my buddies while riding (I never ride alone), maneuver around obstacles, charge down hills... Pretty much the same as I would on a regular mtb. Same thing...
> 
> It may not be for others like Mr. Slaphead.


Yeah, I ride alone 95% of the time. It's different when you're solo. They are no doubt as fun if not more fun than a mtb. If they ever get down to 30#, it would be my only ride for the woods.


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

e-MTBs are intriguing. Very few of them on our local (IMBA Silver) 24-mile trail system (so far), but I'm sure we'll see more, especially as we complete construction toward the planned 43 miles. I note that our local big race this weekend specifically prohibits e-MTBs in the race, but otherwise eMTB's represent a grey area around here (so far). 

Personally, I'd be interested in getting one except that my primary reason for mountain biking these days is fitness, so an eMTB would kind of defeat my purpose for riding. I certainly have no objections to them and have no problem sharing the trails with them (so far).


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If you buy a Levo, minimum assist and go ride for a brisk 25 miles in some gnarly singletrack, you will get the same workout as your regular mtb on a 15 mile rip. The emtb will give you a better upper body workout. Don't let fitness hold you back from experiencing a lot of fun 😀🍺🍕


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> If you buy a Levo, minimum assist and go ride for a brisk 25 miles in some gnarly singletrack, you will get the same workout as your regular mtb on a 15 mile rip. The emtb will give you a better upper body workout. Don't let fitness hold you back from experiencing a lot of fun 


Moe Ped, is this accurate?

Edited: I originally typed "moped" which was understandably misunderstood to be a snarky reply. I meant to be addressing Moe Ped, another member who knows the ebike math.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

leeboh said:


> Hmmm, interesting point. So, no one would need or want an e bike if they just rode 3/4 power, got it.


 Your quote was other than the exertion level, they( e bkes and mt bikes) are exactly the same. So just ride at 3/4 speed or exertion, and no one would want or need an e bike. Other than the extra 15-25 lbs, the inability to really loft the front wheel, bunny hop and slow speed trials like moves, the motor, yup just the same. They seem so far apart on so many levels.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Moped, is this accurate?


Uh yeah. I posted it. Unlike you and many that have never owned an emtb, I have. Two Levo's, and have first hand experienced it. Believe it or not, doesn't matter.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Your quote was other than the exertion level, they( e bkes and mt bikes) are exactly the same. So just ride at 3/4 speed or exertion, and no one would want or need an e bike. Other than the extra 15-25 lbs, the inability to really loft the front wheel, bunny hop and slow speed trials like moves, the motor, yup just the same. They seem so far apart on so many levels.


Ahh got it. I weight 230, so an extra 15lbs on the bike down low doesn't bother me, in particular if the 15 lbs is gonna help me get my 230lbs uphill. And I can get the front wheel up just fine. I can still bunny hop... and my slow speed moves are still there.

Do you ride an emtb along with your regular mtb often?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Why do I sense the old "fitness debate" rolling around again?


----------



## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I don't know anything about the "fitness debate". I do believe that if I'm riding for fitness, and I am, it makes sense to me that the harder I work in the time I have available to ride, the more fit I'm likely to get. Why would I want to ride 25 miles on an e-MTB if I can achieve the same workout in 15 miles on my Farley? I'm not saying that there isn't a valid reason for wanting to ride 25 miles instead of 15, only that in my particular case (and others, I'm sure), distance isn't the goal.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cuyuna said:


> I don't know anything about the "fitness debate". I do believe that if I'm riding for fitness, and I am, it makes sense to me that the harder I work, the more fit I'm likely to get. Why would I want to ride 25 miles on an e-MTB if I can achieve the same workout in 15 miles on my Farley? I'm not saying that there isn't a valid reason, for wanting to ride 25 miles instead of 15, only that distance isn't my goal.


I'm not debating with you. In previous threads, the "fitness debate" arises, constantly. You may opt to ride an emtb to see more trail, go at a faster pace, or just plain put a smile on your face! Whatever. If fitness is your only goal, I'd suggest intervals on the bike and a rowing machine. Works for me, JMO. Is this accurate Chazpat?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Uh yeah. I posted it. Unlike you and many that have never owned an emtb, I have. Two Levo's, and have first hand experienced it. Believe it or not, doesn't matter.


You probably misunderstood me as I misspelled, I meant "Moe Ped", as in another member here. Another ebiker posted some numbers and talked about how much work he had done riding his ebike. Moe Ped broke the numbers down using real math and showed that the motor had done the majority of the work. I'm sure you think your numbers are correct and they may be, I'm just curious if they are accurate and Moe Ped seems to know this stuff more than anyone else around here.

I'm editing my post above with a note.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

AGarcia said:


> Ahh got it. I weight 230, so an extra 15lbs on the bike down low doesn't bother me, in particular if the 15 lbs is gonna help me get my 230lbs uphill. And I can get the front wheel up just fine. I can still bunny hop... and my slow speed moves are still there.
> 
> Do you ride an emtb along with your regular mtb often?


 Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

How hard you exert yourself while riding a bike or ebike has no bearing on if you should be riding it where you want to ride it. The people who make those decisions don't care. I still don't know why anyone thinks it matters?


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> You probably misunderstood me as I misspelled, I meant "Moe Ped", as in another member here. Another ebiker posted some numbers and talked about how much work he had done riding his ebike. Moe Ped broke the numbers down using real math and showed that the motor had done the majority of the work. I'm sure you think your numbers are correct and they may be, I'm just curious if they are accurate and Moe Ped seems to know this stuff more than anyone else around here.
> 
> I'm editing my post above with a note.


No worries, unless you know your body, bike(S), and trail well, I don't think you can figure this out through math.


----------



## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.


I'd agree with you on that. On trails that require that type of maneuvering, I wouldn't want to ride an ebike either.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

They're really not "that" bad, even in the rough. The front end feels heavy because the chainstays on the Levo are sooo long for stability. You can manual and do small bunny hops though. Tire pressure is very different on the 27.5+ with all that weight. Also the suspension needs serious tokens or bands if your going to ride it hard and weigh over 175. The coolest thing for me was the gobs of traction. It's crazy. Mass and kx80 tires the damn thing is glued to the earth. Ruts aren't noticed. It's the same but different. JMO.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Harryman said:


> How hard you exert yourself while riding a bike or ebike has no bearing on if you should be riding it where you want to ride it. The people who make those decisions don't care. I still don't know why anyone thinks it matters?


I agree with you. For me, it's just one arrow in the quiver. And I ride it where my reading of the law tells me it's no prohibited from doing so.


----------



## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Did two demos once. Found the bike to be very heavy esp. on the front end. At speed I clear 6-8" logs all the time. I have to loft the front wheel up 1 ft all the time. And thank goodness they are not allowed on the trails around here.


Understood. Not too many logs to clear where I typically ride. Most of what I ride is fire road climbs with downhills consisting of singletrack hardpack over soft, with small/medium rock gardens and interspersed 6" to 18' drop-offs.


----------



## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

And we are testing legal on some local "trails". 









And my arm is finally good enough to ride something again! YaFvckingHOOOOOOOO! 

Catfish ...


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

motocatfish said:


> And we are testing legal on some local "trails".
> 
> View attachment 1161322
> 
> ...


Is that in Pleasanton?


----------



## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

Phantastic79 said:


> Is that in Pleasanton?


Photo on Contra-Costa Canal Trail in Walnut Creek. If you zoom in to read sign you can see the program does include the Iron Horse Trail to Pleasanton. 

Catfish ...


----------



## Ride Dirty (May 3, 2016)

Hi .. 

So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo 

I am wondering, do you ( the anti-ebikers ) still do math without a calculator ... ?
I mean you could, but why would you?
A calculator makes it quicker, easier, arguably more fun .. but its still math!

Do you shout "thats cheating" every time a you see someone using calculator or sending an email instead of writing a letter and mailing it?

Its like the barefoot brigade getting annoyed because now we have running shoes ... ?!
It doesn't make running any less running, its just doesn't hurt your feet as much anymore!

I ride and race mtb's everything from enduro and downhill to the local one days events ranging from 25km - 60km and even done a 250km multi day stage race and going down, whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!

Some actual data from recent rides (strava) at my local trails ( same routes & time on the bike ) 

Turbo Levo Stats
40km | 1218m gain | 2hr45 ride time | 2040 Calories | Ave speed 14.5km/h | Max speed 49 km/h | Avg heart rates 155bpm | Max heart rate 184bpm | output 1829kj | Ave output 184W

super enjoyable and after the ride i was proper buggered, other guys did half the distance and were as buggered.

YT Capra stats
27.3km | 805m gain | 2hr41 ride time | 1102 calories | Ave speed 10.2 km/h | Max speed 46 km/h | Ave h/rate 166 bpm | Max heart rate 189 bpm | output 988 km | ave power 102 W

These are actual numbers. NOT debatable. More km's done, loads more fun, double calories burned, more climbing, more sweating, more technical training ( by way of more runs done ) miles more smiles ... certainly no more or less damage to trails SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE?!

If you want to work twice as hard for half the fun .. go ahead but that doesn't make you right or wrong.

I believe alot of the people that don't like pedal assisted bikes don't actually understand the concept and think they are comparable to throttle type bikes that you can just "sit and twist" to go anywhere which they aren't

As someone said before the biggest contributor to increased speed on the trails is suspension technology and not pedal assist bike technology.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ride Dirty said:


> Hi ..
> 
> So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo
> 
> ...


Please read through the existing threads in the ebike forum, this has all been covered over and over.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ride Dirty said:


> These are actual numbers. NOT debatable.


Actually without verified power meter data it's just hearsay, even then it could be hacked.

I suppose I'm considered an "anti" here but I could care less about how much work someone does on a ride, some are out for a workout and others just smelling the roses, more power to both of them. E-bikes are a little faster and different than bicycles and that's all.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Missed the user name, lol @ Ride Dirty!


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Ride Dirty said:


> Hi ..
> 
> So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo
> 
> ...


Good for you. At the end of the day, it's all about fun. If you enjoy your Levo on legal trails, that's awesome.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Ride Dirty said:


> Hi ..
> 
> So ... I ride a regular mtb and a levo
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum. Please wait to post until you've caught up. You are currently repeating all of the same crap that's been going on forever. Nothing new.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Ride Dirty said:


> whether i am on the Levo or my Capra enduro bike my times/speeds are the same. The levo takes the pain out the climbs and leaves me with more time and energy for going back down again and again. I can do twice as much in the same time and get twice the workout as well ... FACT!


These are two contradictory statements. The speeds are the same. I can go twice as far in the same amount of time on one over the other.

Not all of us here hate ebikes, I think they're awesome actually, I just don't think they're a bicycle, and especially in the US, will be less and less like a bike as they evolve. If whoever manages the land decides emtbs are allowed, I've got no issue with it, I just don't like that decision being made by politicians or the people who profit from selling them.

For those of us involved in trail access, the increased performance and increased range of an ebike are a concern. Faster and farther makes land managers nervous and other user groups unhappy.

Sounds like you are not in the US, I'd venture your emtbs are far more regulated than ours, and slower as well.


----------



## Ride Dirty (May 3, 2016)

Harryman said:


> These are two contradictory statements. The speeds are the same. I can go twice as far in the same amount of time on one over the other.
> 
> Not all of us here hate ebikes, I think they're awesome actually, I just don't think they're a bicycle, and especially in the US, will be less and less like a bike as they evolve. If whoever manages the land decides emtbs are allowed, I've got no issue with it, I just don't like that decision being made by politicians or the people who profit from selling them.
> 
> ...


Times as in time on bike 2hr 40 ish ... and max speeds just below 50km/h

My Ave speed and max speed on the ride are similar.

There are guys on regular mtb's that go both faster and further ... so if distance and performance are the concern should we be limiting ride time and/or distance per ride/rider?

Bikes here .. Levo's and Giants anyway are restricted at 25km/m so after that you're 100% under your own power.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Ride Dirty said:


> Times as in time on bike 2hr 40 ish ... and max speeds just below 50km/h
> 
> My Ave speed and max speed on the ride are similar.
> 
> ...


Bikes are already effectively limited in many ways by how fit you are. And sure there are plenty of people who can ride faster than I can, both up and down and there are certainly riders that are faster on a mtb than riders on an emtb, it's a small segment of the riding population though. I know locals who can knock out 100 mile mtb rides, but they are in the mutant class, not the 99% of the riders you see on the trails. It doesn't matter one way or another if <5% of the riding population is riding twice as far as the rest of us, either on an mtb or emtb, but it begins to matter if 50% are, which if the predictions that 250w emtbs will take over the world come true. Even in that case, I don't think the additional impact is unmanagable, you'd just need more resources to deal with it. Which gets back to my original point, they're not the same as bikes and should be managed reasonably, for what they are.

FYI, US laws allow 750w 32 kph Class PAS emtbs, also without the required type approvals and regulations required in the EU. A manufacturer can make any claim about their ebikes here they'd like.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I ran into a guy poaching trails on his e-bike while I was in Sedona recently. His rig was broken down and he looked pretty mad at having to push it out of the desert in the heat of the mid-day.

That was the only e-bike I saw on trails in ~2 weeks down there.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

What? You didn’t tow him out! Jk! Why didn’t he ride out?


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

vikb, did you see that sign in Sedona? We are going in a few days and I wondered if they had any Red Rock policy yet? When we were there last year I saw one on the trails and a few on the street. I don't know if you noticed but there are a few bike shops pushing them hard to the old folks. 
If you haven't ridden a bike in several years I don't think you should buy a ebike and go play in the traffic. As cyclist we know how vulnerable we are, a senior that has only ever driven a Cadillac has no idea.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Gutch said:


> What? You didn't tow him out! Jk! Why didn't he ride out?


That doesn't seem to be an option for most ebikers. Ride? What's that?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Well, I’m certainly one of those guys that don’t want to pedal! I always pack a few energizers with me, just in case..


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rlee said:


> If you haven't ridden a bike in several years I don't think you should buy a ebike and go play in the traffic. As cyclist we know how vulnerable we are, a senior that has only ever driven a Cadillac has no idea.


you make a good point.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

rlee said:


> vikb, did you see that sign in Sedona? We are going in a few days and I wondered if they had any Red Rock policy yet?


It would be best to ask at a LBS as I am no expert on the subject. My friend [Sedona local] said e-bikes were banned on any forest service trails. I don't know what trails belong to other land management groups in that area.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Why didn't he ride out?


I have no idea and I wasn't interested in finding out. It was very hot, he had a heavy looking bike and the trail was quite rough. Perhaps riding without the motor was not realistic for him?


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

As an FYI, the trailforks app has a land owner overlay. You can use it to see who owns the land a trail is on. If it's on USFS or BLM land, you can be assured that ebikes cannot ride that trail. Here is a snapshot of Sedona. It does look like the vast majority of their trails are USFS (light green)









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Silentfoe said:


> If it's on USFS or BLM land, you can be assured that ebikes cannot ride that trail.


That's mostly true, but I can think of a number of motorized-legal singletrack trails on NFS land.


----------



## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

I 100% encourage e-bikes on "your" my trails that I ride. Don't have ebike, but I think it's good for the sports sole (it's rotten, stick a battery in it and move on). Let the ebikers fight with the dog walkers, it will push the true mountain bikers back to what mountain biking was.


----------



## Beastride El Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

I ride on a crazy fast e bike and I would like to say anyone who can ride a e bike full out on a trail has big ol balls. I choke back the power level to a 3 of 9 settings and it's all I need to have a great time


----------



## Beastride El Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

Right on


----------



## Beastride El Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

Harryman said:


> Bikes are already effectively limited in many ways by how fit you are. And sure there are plenty of people who can ride faster than I can, both up and down and there are certainly riders that are faster on a mtb than riders on an emtb, it's a small segment of the riding population though. I know locals who can knock out 100 mile mtb rides, but they are in the mutant class, not the 99% of the riders you see on the trails. It doesn't matter one way or another if <5% of the riding population is riding twice as far as the rest of us, either on an mtb or emtb, but it begins to matter if 50% are, which if the predictions that 250w emtbs will take over the world come true. Even in that case, I don't think the additional impact is unmanagable, you'd just need more resources to deal with it. Which gets back to my original point, they're not the same as bikes and should be managed reasonably, for what they are.
> 
> FYI, US laws allow 750w 32 kph Class PAS emtbs, also without the required type approvals and regulations required in the EU. A manufacturer can make any claim about their ebikes here they'd like.


Nothing wrong with e bikes on trails, anyone that is at a trail no matter the type of bike already knows what is about to go down... the rocks you go over the other guy has to go over. You and the other guy know what it takes to do it... if either of you muff it... then your a FNG and that crash is lesson one of how not to go over rocks on ( INSERT BIKE OF CHOICE ) 
Trust me it's OK for an e bike noob to eat dirt. I ate dirt on my bike learning my lessons. My dad ate dirt on lessons before me. How else is a guy supposed to learn...


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Beastride El Rey said:


> Nothing wrong with e bikes on trails, anyone that is at a trail no matter the type of bike already knows what is about to go down... the rocks you go over the other guy has to go over. You and the other guy know what it takes to do it... if either of you muff it... then your a FNG and that crash is lesson one of how not to go over rocks on ( INSERT BIKE OF CHOICE )
> Trust me it's OK for an e bike noob to eat dirt. I ate dirt on my bike learning my lessons. My dad ate dirt on lessons before me. How else is a guy supposed to learn...


Welcome to the Forum. You've now posted 4 times, three in this one old thread. Please take some time to read through MANY of the old threads hashing this out. Most things have been addressed regarding ebikes and no one here has a desire to hash it back out with you. Also read the ebike forum rules. Especially regarding advocating for illegal ebikes or poaching.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Beastride El Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

Are you OK there utah. Had a little too much to drink i see. Is it common place to accuse a life long xc biker with 20 years riding and 50,000 miles before I became a handicap O.P.E.M.D. rider that legally rides all the same trails I have for 20 years. Plus poaching... that's an random and uncalled for remark. By the way do you know we live in a free america that allows law abiding citizens the freedom to comment in a open forum.... not that I am here to challenge anyone to "hash out" anything. I'm am fully aware of the laws in my state and the codes in my city. It was by understanding the laws that I am able to get permission to ride freely in my city and local trails and in places that all bikes are not allowed. By the way does this organization approve of your discrimination of disabled riders and false accusations of illegal criminal activity's ... or have you been out in the woods alone too long cabin boy... ..i..


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Beastride El Rey said:


> Are you OK there utah. Had a little too much to drink i see. Is it common place to accuse a life long xc biker with 20 years riding and 50,000 miles before I became a handicap O.P.E.M.D. rider that legally rides all the same trails I have for 20 years. Plus poaching... that's an random and uncalled for remark. By the way do you know we live in a free america that allows law abiding citizens the freedom to comment in a open forum.... not that I am here to challenge anyone to "hash out" anything. I'm am fully aware of the laws in my state and the codes in my city. It was by understanding the laws that I am able to get permission to ride freely in my city and local trails and in places that all bikes are not allowed. By the way does this organization approve of your discrimination of disabled riders and false accusations of illegal criminal activity's ... or have you been out in the woods alone too long cabin boy... ..i..


Ok princess. Take a breath. I never accused you of anything besides jumping into the pool without looking. Your biking experience means nothing, as does your disability. I'm addressing you, not a handicap. If you'd like to comment on a post, great. Maybe look at when it was posted to see if the discussion is still pertinent. If it's an old post, you can be safe assuming that the topic got old and everything important had been addressed. Start a new topic if you want. Just make sure to follow the Forum guidelines.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Beastride El Rey said:


> I ride on a crazy fast e bike and I would like to say anyone who can ride a e bike full out on a trail has big ol balls. I choke back the power level to a 3 of 9 settings and it's all I need to have a great time


This is a family friendly forum. Please you balls to yourself.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Geeze, I actually feel sorry for some of our ebikers here, seems like there is a steady stream of ebikers who join this site just to strut in with a big chip on their shoulder and challenge people to knock it off.


----------



## robertaboone100 (Jan 11, 2018)

No thanks, not this time, cause I haven't much experience on E-bike trails.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Geeze, I actually feel sorry for some of our ebikers here, seems like there is a steady stream of ebikers who join this site just to strut in with a big chip on their shoulder and challenge people to knock it off.


Yeah, that guy was a troll from the beginning. we just don't need that kind of negative trolling on this site. 5 posts in and that is what he has done so far. nope. you are gone buddy.


----------



## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

TSpice said:


> I mountain bike for fitness and muscle cross training, on top of obviously being fun. So I know I would never use an e-bike as it would defeat the primary purpose of my riding.
> 
> However, there is an equally large, if not larger, group of people that ride for the pure pleasure of it. So if an e-bike will allow them to get out and ride longer (which will still burn 'some' calories), and it doesn't compromise the integrity of the trails or endanger anyone on the trail? I am all for it.
> 
> ...


You don't understand how an eBike works if you think that you don't get a workout. I have a 2017 Stumpjumper Carbon Comp FSR & a Turbo Levo Comp FSR. Nearly identical bikes. One is 20 pounds heavier because of the battery & motor. If the Stumpy is the baseline, then the Levo requires anywhere from (using approximate numbers) 50 percent to 120 percent of the effort to maintain a given speed over a given distance. It's similar to the difference between you and a Tour professional. They don't work any less hard than you do just because they are faster. On my Levo over a flat 1 mile gravel road I can maintain 20 mph at the highest level of assist at a steady 155 bpm. On my Stumpy I can maintain 12 at 155 bpm. Based on detailed training records from my mid 20s, I would average 18-20 mph at about 160 bpm over a semi flat 20 mile paved course on a late 80's hardtail mountain bike. Today on the Levo, at 53, I can maintain same pace with about 50 percent assist at about 160 bpm. My Stumpy rides are more "peaky" with higher max heart rate, and need to be shorter distances than my Levo rides. Levo rides are more aerobic and the bike allows you to dial-in as much or as little anaerobic time as you like.

As far as speed while climbing is concerned, when I ride with high school competitive riders, I adjust my assist to match the level of effort (taking into account differences in healthy heart rate zones ) and match climbing speed. It isn't about climbing faster than 5 mph. It's about the ability to match levels of effort.

You have some significant misconceptions of the whole eMTB riding experience. That is strangely common in the US.


----------



## Ray Lee (Aug 17, 2007)

I don't care one way or the other. I don't care what brand or style bike people ride either.

I obviously don't want to see people going to fast on trails we share with hikers and dog walkers but so far I have yet to see a electric bike that climbs faster than the regular bikers descend. 

OT but once the price comes down I might look into getting one to haul trail tools around with.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Ray Lee said:


> I obviously don't want to see people going to fast on trails we share with hikers and dog walkers but *so far I have yet to see a electric bike that climbs faster than the regular bikers descend. *
> 
> OT but once the price comes down I might look into getting one to haul trail tools around with.


That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.

When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.

On a directional trail system the extra speed for an eBike climbing is not an issue IMO.

There is not one blanket answer for this in all riding area's.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.
> 
> When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.
> 
> ...


I have yet to see a trail where the downhill rider is not obligated to yield to the uphill rider. Is that not the case where you live?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> I have yet to see a trail where the downhill rider is not obligated to yield to the uphill rider. Is that not the case where you live?


It most certainly is the unspoken trail etiquette. But some trails have difficult sight lines and 2 people on bikes could come around a corner and suddenly be face to face, that is when differential speed will determine if the downhill rider can stop in time to not collide with the uphill rider.

Again, that is not the case everywhere, but it can be a concern in some places.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

Klurejr said:


> That is a great point, on a mutli-use trail where uphill bike traffic is 2-3mph and downhill bike traffic is 15-20mph.... you have a 13-18mph speed differential.
> 
> When the uphill riders are on an eBike and are now going 10mph uphill, the speed differential changes from 13-18mph to 23-28mph. That is when problems will arise. And that is not counting any equestrians or pedestrians that might be sharing the trail.
> 
> ...


I ride up a directional multi use trail. As a expert level rider I have to adjust my speed to avoid conflict with other users. The saving grace is that most trail users here ride slow on the up hills. A inexperienced assist rider could ascend fast enough to cause all sorts of trouble. 
As I have said before a experienced rider using assist is not a problem. It is the new user that buy's speed.


----------



## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

rlee said:


> As I have said before a experienced rider using assist is not a problem. It is the new user that buy's speed.


Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit. Why ban the majority of e-mtb'ers who abide by the rules and regulations impossed, due to a small number (who may not even exist yet, and where i'm from never seen any evidence they do) who cannot refrain from making an ass out of themselves.


----------



## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

KiwiPhil said:


> Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit. Why ban the majority of e-mtb'ers who abide by the rules and regulations impossed, due to a small number (who may not even exist yet, and where i'm from never seen any evidence they do) who cannot refrain from making an ass out of themselves.


First off, they are never going to ban cars on roads due to the idiots. But if you've read enough of these moped forum threads, you'd realize that the concern here in the US is that mopeds being allowed on all the trails will create user conflicts and gets trails closed to actual mountain bikes.

As far as following the rules, I have yet to see that since EVERY moped rider I've seen so far has been riding where they are illegal to ride. So based on my own personal experiences, the majority of moped riders can't follow the rules. Remember, we also have nearly 24 million people in Southern California alone so we're likely to have more user conflicts than NZ.


----------



## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

The analogy to automobiles doesn't work. With cars you have police to patrol roads. You can eventually get banned from driving. With trails, bad users get the trails shut down to all bikes not the individual like in cars.
Also with cars you need to learn the rules before you can drive. With a ebike it's pay your money and have at it.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

k2rider1964 said:


> First off, they are never going to ban cars on roads due to the idiots. But if you've read enough of these moped forum threads, you'd realize that the concern here in the US is that mopeds being allowed on all the trails will create user conflicts and gets trails closed to actual mountain bikes.
> 
> As far as following the rules, I have yet to see that since EVERY moped rider I've seen so far has been riding where they are illegal to ride. So based on my own personal experiences, the majority of moped riders can't follow the rules. Remember, we also have nearly 24 million people in Southern California alone so we're likely to have more user conflicts than NZ.


Ebikes, not mopeds please. We all understand the similarities, but in this particular forum, we maintain a certain distinctions. Can check the sticky at the top for details. Thanks.


----------



## paetersen (Jul 28, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ebikes, not mopeds please. We all understand the similarities, but in this particular forum, we maintain a certain distinctions. Can check the sticky at the top for details. Thanks.


Different tires? Longer travel suspension? The distinction between ebikes and mopeds has been duly noted.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Yes you are correct in some ways, but it is also like saying ban all cars from the road as there are learner drivers out there who are inexperienced, or speedsters in high powered vehicles who go over the speedlimit.


If you really want to stick to the Automobile analogy you need to remember that before one gets a DL they must take classes, practice under supervision and then take a written and practical exam AND pass that exam before the State grants them the rights to drive any vehicle on the roads.

Are you suggesting that something similar be implemented for riding an eBike on dirt trails?


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

paetersen said:


> Different tires? Longer travel suspension? The distinction between ebikes and mopeds has been duly noted.


If you're referring to specific e-MTB tires, some MTB riders are using them since they're reportedly very durable. Otherwise, the e-MTB's discussed here are those classified as e-bicycles by the current Class 1, 2, & 3 system and are neither mopeds nor motorcycles. Further references which contain moped or motorcycle definitions will be expunged.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

fos'l said:


> If you're referring to specific e-MTB tires, some MTB riders are using them since they're reportedly very durable. Otherwise, the e-MTB's discussed here are those classified as e-bicycles by the current Class 1, 2, & 3 system and are neither mopeds nor motorcycles. Further references which contain moped or motorcycle definitions will be expunged.


Well, they are not mountain bikes, either, so please expunge any reference to mountain bikes, as well. Thank you.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Well, they are not mountain bikes, either, so please expunge any reference to mountain bikes, as well. Thank you.


I make a point of keeping that distinction clear here too, constantly, so save your whining. And you're welcome.

If you guys have some big burning desire to be mods yourselves, contact FC and talk to him about it. Don't complain and nitpick here; your wasting your and everyone else's time.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> I make a point of keeping that distinction clear here too, constantly, so save your whining. And you're welcome.
> 
> If you guys have some big burning desire to be mods yourselves, contact FC and talk to him about it. Don't complain and nitpick here; your wasting your and everyone else's time.


I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.


----------



## Twimby (Jun 27, 2013)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.


I did this for you. Will save you a lot of that big waste of time,


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.


If you don't like the way the forum is operated, there's a complaint process. Whining doesn't seem to be working for you, but keep it up; we need some comic relief.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.


Because you've been doing zilch but complaining in this forum for a long time now and it's getting boring and annoying. If you think I'm going to waste time trying to justify anything to you, you're sadly mistaken.

You don't like how I mod, go try to find someone who cares to complain to. Until then, if you don't change your crappy attitude, expect to get a whole lot unhappier about it.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I was referring to the other mod, so you can unbunch your panties. This whole forum is really a big waste of time, anyway, so what's your distinction for calling out my request versus everybody elses'? I was calling out a bs response by a mod. If you have a problem with that, then I have a problem with you, as well. If you can't handle being a mod, then maybe you should give it up.


 Mb 24, there's always cat videos for time wasting, so awesome.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

tahoebeau said:


> What's the obsession with the class 1, 2 and 3 system? Those classes mean absolutely nothing here in the states outside of California, and news flash, many of us don't live in California, so why are you trying to push that crazy ass states laws on all of us?
> 
> Also, there are several states that classify ebikes as mopeds so why is there an issue with calling ebikes mopeds if that is what they are legally classified as?


Tahoe, you're very wrong. There are quite a few states that identify ebikes into 3 classes and that number is growing. It's pushed by People for Bikes in all of their new legislation recommendations.

If you're going to pick a side, know your facts before you open your mouth or you are only adding to the BS involved.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Silentfoe said:


> Tahoe, you're very wrong. There are quite a few states that identify ebikes into 3 classes and that number is growing. It's pushed by People for Bikes in all of their new legislation recommendations.
> 
> If you're going to pick a side, know your facts before you open your mouth or you are only adding to the BS involved.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Had no idea there were a few other states that use the same class system. However, it's very few, so again, why focus so much on this class system when it effects so few? Also, looking into it, there are about 3 times as many states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motor vehicles, so why not accept that as a definition along the other definitions from other states like electric bicycle? Seems pretty hypocritical.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> Had no idea there were a few other states that use the same class system. However, it's very few, so again, why focus so much on this class system when it effects so few? Also, looking into it, there are about 3 times as many states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motor vehicles, so why not accept that as a definition along the other definitions from other states like electric bicycle? Seems pretty hypocritical.


You do realize that California is the most populated state in the union and sets the trends for much legislation in the other 49 states.....

Go ahead and discount what California is doing to your own detriment. If you do not think the leadership in your state is looking at what standards are being set in California.... you are wrong.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AFAICT from the graph on People for Bikes website, six states have adopted the "Class" system and about 20 states regulate e-bikes as bicycles, that is no license or insurance required. Pretty close to 50% total.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

fos'l said:


> AFAICT from the graph on People for Bikes website, six states have adopted the "Class" system and about 20 states regulate e-bikes as bicycles, that is no license or insurance required. Pretty close to 50% total.


Why are you talking about license and insurance on a mountain bike website? Those two things have no relevance to mountain biking. Also the same graph show over 20 states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motorized vehicles, so why can't we also call ebikes what these states legally call them?

As for the class system, what does that have to do with moutnainbiking? I can see that being relevant on the commuter forum maybe, but as your favorite bike website has pointed out, the class system is only relevant to the state's vehicle code *"and where e-bikes are allowed to go on the road, bike lanes, bike paths, or other paved or hard-surface bicycle infrastructure. The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths; eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are; and on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions."*

That is a quote from the people for bikes website. So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?


Ummm...did you miss the fact that you're posting in a dedicated e-bike subforum?
Yup, it's true!

Hopefully that helps clear up your confusion.
You're welcome.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm...did you miss the fact that you're posting in a dedicated e-bike subforum?
> Yup, it's true!
> 
> Hopefully that helps clear up your confusion.
> You're welcome.


Thank you mofo, that was a dumb question considering there is a commuter forum and other non, mountain biking forums on this site.

I will reframe the question with regards to the title of the thread, so, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with riding ebikes on mountain bike trails and why is this class system brought up when discussin ebike access on non-motorized trails like the ones called out by people for bikes?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I would assume because it's a very clear and simple way to distinguish exactly what level of power and method of actuation is being discussed.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

tahoebeau said:


> Why are you talking about license and insurance on a mountain bike website? Those two things have no relevance to mountain biking. Also the same graph show over 20 states that classify ebikes as mopeds or motorized vehicles, so why can't we also call ebikes what these states legally call them?
> 
> As for the class system, what does that have to do with moutnainbiking? I can see that being relevant on the commuter forum maybe, but as your favorite bike website has pointed out, the class system is only relevant to the state's vehicle code *"and where e-bikes are allowed to go on the road, bike lanes, bike paths, or other paved or hard-surface bicycle infrastructure. The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths; eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are; and on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions."*
> 
> That is a quote from the people for bikes website. So again, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with mountain biking and why are so many here obsessed with this class system on a mountain biking web site when it has no relevance when actually mountain biking?


Why don't you acquaint yourself with the rules? This site defines Class 1 e-MTB's as e-bikes. Also, some states that define e-bikes as "bikes" (we know they're different) allow them on MTB trails, some don't and some have mixed prohibitions depending on the area being considered. Of course, you're welcome to start your own site and make up any rules you want. Just don't try it again here.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tahoebeau said:


> Thank you mofo, that was a dumb question considering there is a commuter forum and other non, mountain biking forums on this site.
> 
> I will reframe the question with regards to the title of the thread, so, what the f does the ebike class system have to do with riding ebikes on mountain bike trails and why is this class system brought up when discussin ebike access on non-motorized trails like the ones called out by people for bikes?


 Well, CA allows class 1 E bikes on some of their trails systems for example. As do some other states. Read the stickies at the start of the section. It's a way of having a discussion, without debating the " facts" ad nauseam.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

fos'l said:


> This site defines Class 1 e-MTB's as e-bikes. Also, some states that define e-bikes as "bikes" (we know they're different) allow them on MTB trails,


Not according to people for bikes. They say "The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences."

Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

There are a number of existing threads around here somewhere with more specific information re: where e-bikes are allowed/not allowed.
I'd suggest doing a little digging rather than trying to start again from square one in this thread. Can start here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/state-rules-regarding-ebikes-trails-1059597.html


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tahoebeau said:


> Not according to people for bikes. They say "The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences."
> 
> Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?


 Lol, people for bikes? You mean the org. that is sponsored by bike bike makers to try to get e bikes everywhere via legislation? And yes, road rules usually do not apply to off road multi use paths. MA rider here. Most states have such a mix of state, federal and county land areas, add in conservation areas and private stuff as well. Add in varying rules and regs with only apply in each specific area, = kind of a mess in regards to e bike use and rules. Check out CA, they seem to be the leader in some areas for off road e bike use, start there. And best to go state by state.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

PFB is an industry trade group with a stated objective of unifying e-bike rules for bike paths nationwide (two different PFB groups reiterated that to me, one at Interbike and one at an e-bike expo), but some think they are also trying to gain e-MTB access to trails, and those individuals may be right.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> Not according to people for bikes. They say "The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences."
> 
> Are you saying there are states that allow a particular class of ebikes on all trails that allow regular bikes within the states boarders?


No one is suggesting that Vehicle Code applies to electric bikes.

That said, some of the definitions used in vehicle code have been adopted by land managers to manage ebikes on dirt trials......

Please read a bit more in this forum before making a fool of yourself.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> No one is suggesting that Vehicle Code applies to electric bikes.
> 
> That said, some of the definitions used in vehicle code have been adopted by land managers to manage ebikes on dirt trials......
> 
> Please read a bit more in this forum before making a fool of yourself.


Too late

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Well, there IS a lot of water under the bridge to catch up on...


----------



## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

As batteries get better and better they might approach a heat engine in hp per weight. Practical electric bikes are rather new and as information increases about there uses and safety a more informative picture will come clear. 

A lot of ya here are anal about your fitness and discipline in life and see ebikes and their riders something to be rid of. Just like the jocks and motorheads in school..at least in my youth.

My issue is it might bring more personal issues to the trails. Just like when atvs overtook motorcycles in popularity around here...an atv has a place for the 6 pack. It is easier to ride high on an ebike or might draw undesirables to the trail for that reason. 

Ebike trails should be one way and must use road rules to be safe if I had my way.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

Ebikes will be the majority in 10 years. Live with it.


----------



## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm good with that..I have made several weedwacker assisted bikes and they were a ball..


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

fos'l said:


> CA has a Class 1 rating for e-bikes that supposedly allows them in the same areas as
> p-bikes...





Harryman;
...Class 1 and 2 are allowed except where expressly prohibited...
[/QUOTE said:


> WoodlandHills said:
> 
> 
> > in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes....
> ...


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> No ****. Plus just skimming through this thread, or forum for that matter, it sure as **** doesn't seem like all agree that you can't just ride a class 1 ebike anywhere. Mods should be deleting or modifying (get it) any post that's suggests the class system determines where ebikes can be ridden on non-motorized trails.


In some places, it does. Some people live in those places. They may even communicate on the internet and share their experiences. The same rules don't apply everywhere.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> In some places, it does. Some people live in those places. They may even communicate on the internet and share their experiences. The same rules don't apply everywhere.


Isn't it the land managers who determine what can be used on the land they manage?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> Isn't it the land managers who determine what can be used on the land they manage?


Sometimes.

If you're looking for a black-or-white, one-size-fits-all, master determination that covers the entire planet, you're just not going to find it. Simply not how things work.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Zerort said:


> Ebikes will be the majority in 10 years. Live with it.


 Quite a clear crystal ball? And where they are currently illegal? The oh so fast moving state and federal rules and regulation. YRMV.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

1niceride said:


> I'm good with that..I have made several weedwacker assisted bikes and they were a ball..


 i've seen some pics of a hand push rotary mower replacing the front wheel? Like that?


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sometimes.


What places does the class system override the land managers ability to ban ebikes?

Looking through this thread and the whole forum, there are countless posts saying that california is one of those places. The mods are just letting that continue, so then Cali must be one of those places your talking about that allows ebikes anywhere p-bikes can go, right?


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tahoebeau said:


> What places does the class system override the land managers ability to ban ebikes?
> 
> Looking through this thread and the whole forum, there are countless posts saying that california is one of those places. The mods are just letting that continue, so then Cali must be one of those places your talking about that allows ebikes anywhere p-bikes can go, right?


If you're interested in finding out a lot of specifics about what the laws are, I suggest research.

If you're interested in complaining about moderation, I suggest finding somewhere else to do it.


----------



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> If you're interested in finding out a lot of specifics about what the laws are, I suggest research.


Ok. Like what? Maybe do what most people would do and type in something like "where you can and cannot legally ride e-mtbs" on google?

Hmmm, first link gets us to a web site about mountain biking that shows statement after statement, in many different places, from many different people saying class 1 ebikes are allowed to go anywhere pedal bikes can go in California and they even site sources with specific language to back this up. Good thing that website is there to clear things up :lol:


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

tahoebeau said:


> Ok. Like what? Maybe do what most people would do and type in something like "where you can and cannot legally ride e-mtbs" on google?
> 
> Hmmm, first link gets us to a web site about mountain biking that shows statement after statement, in many different places, from many different people saying class 1 ebikes are allowed to go anywhere pedal bikes can go in California and they even site sources with specific language to back this up. Good thing that website is there to clear things up :lol:


 CA has their own forums. All the state parks and fed agencies list the rules and regs. Local stuff? Check the web site for each area. Trying to ride the whole state of Cali? Try this, look up the park where you are going to ride, doesn't seem that hard.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Life tip - don't believe every single thing you read in an online forum.

You're welcome.


----------



## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

leeboh said:


> i've seen some pics of a hand push rotary mower replacing the front wheel? Like that?


Find steel frame. Weld pivot pin where rear rim brake caliper would go. 1.5 inch rubber roller on output shaft. Roller rides on wheel. Lever is pushed down to lift motor off wheel. Fabricated motor bracket slides over pin for pivot.

Had a 3hp 2 stroke once on a bmx bike that would do 30mph..then a dog ran in front of me...couple of days healing.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I’ll do what I can to let land mangers know that I am an avid mountain biker and feel e-bikes do not belong on non-motorized trails for the glaringly obvious reason they they have a motor.


----------



## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

^^^ This. I don't understand how the distinction can't easily be made between e-bikes and real bikes. A car is a car, regardless of the fuel type, because they all have a motor. Bikes do not, e-bikes do. Non-motorized trail means just that. The end-runaround with different classifications only makes for more ill will.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Quite a clear crystal ball? And where they are currently illegal? The oh so fast moving state and federal rules and regulation. YRMV.


You all sound like the people in this article:
1900-1930: The years of driving dangerously


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

We've been going through the "it has a motor" monthly or since this sub-forum started.
Guess what?
1) We know they have a motor.
2) We know they're different.
3) We know they're a blast in their environment.
4) We know they're allowed on MTB trails in some areas.
5) We know some individuals will keep iterating the obvious.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Zerort said:


> You all sound like the people in this article:
> 1900-1930: The years of driving dangerously


 Predicting the future? Sure e bikes are here. They make great commuters, been thinking about getting one. You make it seem like everyone wants a motorized, heavy bike? Not. I'm for lighter, human power and get away from technology while spending time in the woods. Peace, quiet , birds and such. Lots of laws regarding trail access and so many variations on state, federal and local properties. You think they will all just vanish? Ha.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Predicting the future? Sure e bikes are here. They make great commuters, been thinking about getting one. You make it seem like everyone wants a motorized, heavy bike? Not. I'm for lighter, human power and get away from technology while spending time in the woods. Peace, quiet , birds and such. Lots of laws regarding trail access and so many variations on state, federal and local properties. You think they will all just vanish? Ha.


Agree with your points about being in the woods, tranquility, and all that other fluff.

However, yes, with the aging population more and more people will purchase them. Large manufacturers are not spending large portions of their R&D to develop something that is not going to grow.

Also, lighter e-bikes are coming. Look at Focus, BMC.

Ever hear of the cell phone? They use to come in a backpack. Funny right?

E-bikes are here to stay and will grow in popularity. Also, don't kid yourself, this country caters to the minority.

Whoever thought that pot would be legal 10 years ago? Yes, laws change.

You can complain about the "motors", weight, trail damage (funny one), danger and all that, but if you keep being naive, you will only be complaining more in the coming years.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Zerort said:


> Agree with your points about being in the woods, tranquility, and all that other fluff.
> 
> However, yes, with the aging population more and more people will purchase them. Large manufacturers are not spending large portions of their R&D to develop something that is not going to grow.
> 
> ...


 Naive? Hmmm, not hardly. MA rider here, where do you pedal Zerort? Lots of riding on conservation land here, the policies of getting the land set aside for conservation easements state no motorized vehicles. Ever hear of HOH( hateful old hikers) ? Wait for a hi power e bike to take out granny, see what happens. Keep dreaming. Really. See also, mopeds, beta max, vhs tapes. Still got your walkman? CA seems to be the test case for some of this, we'll see how this shakes out. Know the history of motos and atvs around here? Not good.


----------



## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Wait for a hi power e bike to take out granny, see what happens.


Yeah, I am waiting for this to happen....and waiting....and waiting.

Then I'll wait for the excuse that it was because of an E-bike. Not just a bike. Because regular bikes can't run into granny right?



leeboh said:


> Keep dreaming. Really. See also, mopeds, beta max, vhs tapes. Still got your walkman? CA seems to be the test case for some of this, we'll see how this shakes out.


Thank you for making my point for me again. Yes, technology changes. Those things you mention weren't outlawed. Geez, do you even read?



leeboh said:


> Know the history of motos and atvs around here? Not good.


No, I ride in Michigan.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Zerort said:


> Yeah, I am waiting for this to happen....and waiting....and waiting.
> 
> Then I'll wait for the excuse that it was because of an E-bike. Not just a bike. Because regular bikes can't run into granny right?
> 
> ...


 Michigan, the land of lakes, huge amount of woods, cows and a few people? Nice, I'll send the ebikes out there with all the motos and atvs. Here in the crowded east, so many trail access issues, mt bike access issues ( really) and such. It's not a one size fits all in regards to access to trails. And to granny? ( RIP ) 10 pedal strokes on a dirt road and you're going 20 + mph, big issues. Yes, I donn red gud. Technology changes, really fast these days and is fickle. How long were mopeds a thing? A few years and done. Got a segway, an off road version? As it stands now in MA, motorized vehicles not allowed here on state park land( save for like 6 spots) Maybe you should stick to the cheese forums? Again, one size does not fit all, good luck with the crystal ball, buy some lottery tickets?


----------

