# TR on the rise of mtn bikes:blame it on Greg Le MOnd.



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Interesting pov.
TR sounds like a conservative person and then there is an eccentric vibe going on. Maybe a weird sense of humour. If there is one guy that has seen the evolution of bikes since the 80s from inside the industry at least in the US and japan is TR.


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm Pretty sure the Taylor brothers would have a big laugh at this, Along with a bunch of French builders from the early to mid 20th century. Does he really believe what he says or is he just selling the brand. He made some nice bikes but seems to have no sense that he's another link in a long, long chain. This observation is probably nothing new to most of you but this is the first time Ive heard Ritchey speak.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

MattBallman said:


> I'm Pretty sure the Taylor brothers would have a big laugh at this, Along with a bunch of French builders from the early to mid 20th century. Does he really believe what he says or is he just selling the brand. He made some nice bikes but seems to have no sense that he's another link in a long, long chain. This observation is probably nothing new to most of you but this is the first time Ive heard Ritchey speak.


There sure is a lot of mistifying going on between bicycle parts fabrication and the PR machine that sells it. Hard to tell a straight fact history when there is so much claim to fameand talent rip off while a few creators don't even care if they get a medal or not.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

That's was excellent.
Thanks Colker.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

TR says he is responsible for the introduction of tig welding in bicycle fabrication..


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Supposedly Sinyard is supposed to do one of these. That should be interesting...


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## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Supposedly Sinyard is supposed to do one of these. That should be interesting...


Yep.

I think Tom's observation about the focal change that came in part because of Greg is actually pretty close to the center of the target. A lot of things came into play at that time, even as a kid just getting into road I saw it. Team 7-11, Greg, etc-etc. It became a huge boom that trickled across the entire bicycling industry. BMX's rise was at or near it's peak as far as public integration, people who had no intention of following road riding became enamored, and the years following the birth of mountain biking were nurtured through as a result. The only thing people can hold against Greg in my eyes was his selling to Trek, which started the end of LeMond bikes, and inherently in my eyes, made Greg that much more vocal and bitter. (Bashing on Lance.) The thing is that's the later years, Tom's addressing the beginnings, and he's right there as far as stating a basic component of the rise.

At least in my opinion.


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## DFA (Jan 26, 2004)

Has Sinyard patented the phrase "Ask a Founder" yet?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Supposedly Sinyard is supposed to do one of these. That should be interesting...


oh yeah..


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DFA said:


> Has Sinyard patented the phrase "Ask a Founder" yet?


I heard he patented the expression "local builder".
otoh Dario Pegoretti said his turning point was checking a stumpjumper and the tig welding. The king of made by hand racing bicycles.

I look at the fat, huge chainstays and think: Yo Eddy.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Obi said:


> Yep.
> 
> I think Tom's observation about the focal change that came in part because of Greg is actually pretty close to the center of the target. A lot of things came into play at that time, even as a kid just getting into road I saw it. Team 7-11, Greg, etc-etc. It became a huge boom that trickled across the entire bicycling industry. BMX's rise was at or near it's peak as far as public integration, people who had no intention of following road riding became enamored, and the years following the birth of mountain biking were nurtured through as a result. The only thing people can hold against Greg in my eyes was his selling to Trek, which started the end of LeMond bikes, and inherently in my eyes, made Greg that much more vocal and bitter. (Bashing on Lance.) The thing is that's the later years, Tom's addressing the beginnings, and he's right there as far as stating a basic component of the rise.
> 
> At least in my opinion.


I believe the big influence in the end.. is BMX. Mtn Biking is BMX for grown ups.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Thanks for posting. That was an interesting talk. I wish it had been longer.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> Thanks for posting. That was an interesting talk. I wish it had been longer.


 I am looking for the full unedited version but could not find it yet.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

Funny, watched this right after putting my Breakaway back together.

I have HUGE respect for Tom Ritchey. But every time I hear him or Gary Fisher it makes me appreciate guys like Joe Breeze and Keith Bontrager even more--guys who are so freakin humble but perhaps were even more "important" in the evolution of bikes/mtbs. I was thinking Ritchey could have maybe mentioned Eisentraut?

Also the genius tubing remark made me laugh (again) at Scot Nicol's/Ibis's "Moron" tubing.


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## blilrat (Oct 27, 2011)

Here's the full version. You have to be really dedicated as it's over 2hrs long.

TR Triangle / Blogs / News & Blogs / Ritchey - News & Blogs


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

colker1 said:


> TR says he is responsible for the introduction of tig welding in bicycle fabrication..


The full version includes his talking about TIG bikes. All he says is that everyone was building road bikes with lugs, but he [Tom] had moved to fillet brazed. No was was using TIG welding except for BMX bikes, it wasn't used on road bikes. This gave him [Tom] a unique talent in that he was not limited by lugs. All the other road bike builders were limited by lugs - ovalized tubes and large diameter tubesets didn't work with lugs.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

blilrat said:


> Here's the full version. You have to be really dedicated as it's over 2hrs long.
> 
> TR Triangle / Blogs / News & Blogs / Ritchey - News & Blogs


Excellent!!

The full version is much better. Comments like the Columbus tubing make much more sense when heard unedited.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Also the genius tubing remark made me laugh (again) at Scot Nicol's/Ibis's "Moron" tubing.


Thought the same thing today..LOL.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

blilrat said:


> Here's the full version. You have to be really dedicated as it's over 2hrs long.
> 
> ]


It was worth it



Did they edit out the swearing?


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

I just want to know why a couple of my Ritchey bikes don't have serial numbers.

Is that how you start a reputable company.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

hollister said:


> Did they edit out the swearing?


I only heard one swear word, which Tom blamed Jobst for teaching him.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

DoubleCentury said:


> I just want to know why a couple of my Ritchey bikes don't have serial numbers.


Those were the ones built by Gary Fisher


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

CCMDoc said:


> Those were the ones built by Gary Fisher


Ouch!

LOL


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

MattBallman said:


> Does he really believe what he says or is he just selling the brand. He made some nice bikes but seems to have no sense that he's another link in a long, long chain. This observation is probably nothing new to most of you but this is the first time Ive heard Ritchey speak.


IMO, he's not the most approachable guy to talk to. Maybe it's because he's shy, but it feels more like 'holier than thou' to me.



Henry Chinaski said:


> I have HUGE respect for Tom Ritchey. But every time I hear him or Gary Fisher it makes me appreciate guys like Joe Breeze and Keith Bontrager even more--guys who are so freakin humble but perhaps were even more "important" in the evolution of bikes/mtbs.


Agreed.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Wasn't going to say anything but since others have mentioned the vibe, yeah, what's up with that?

Love Ritchey parts, would totally dig having one of his brazed bikes, but man, rather full of himself, and a gee gosh sorta way. 

Might have gone better in person, but on tape? Makes me appreciate those such as Dario (whom I had the pleasure of sharing dinner with once) who are just so down to earth and approachable.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

CCMDoc said:


> Those were the ones built by Gary Fisher


Gary Fisher invented bicycles and also the airplanes.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Wasn't going to say anything but since others have mentioned the vibe, yeah, what's up with that?
> 
> Love Ritchey parts, would totally dig having one of his brazed bikes, but man, rather full of himself, and a gee gosh sorta way.
> 
> Might have gone better in person, but on tape? Makes me appreciate those such as Dario (whom I had the pleasure of sharing dinner with once) who are just so down to earth and approachable.


Dario, indeed... he will value whom ever is around him.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I have a lot of respect for TR. What he contributed towards our passion, and those beautiful fillet brazed welds.


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## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

hollister said:


> It was worth it
> 
> 
> 
> Did they edit out the swearing?


Now that right there's classic! You went huh? I sat there watching the video looking at my wife going "Wait, is that Hol sitting in front of Dave?". A couple other faces in that crowd I recognized also.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

DoubleCentury said:


> I just want to know why a couple of my Ritchey bikes don't have serial numbers.
> 
> Is that how you start a reputable company.


When we first started selling those bikes, there was no inkling that there would be so many you had to NUMBER them. You could just say "the red one," or ""the blue large frame." Do you number your own kids? No, you identify them by looking at them.

Also, MountainBikes was not a reputable company.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

colker1 said:


> I believe the big influence in the end.. is BMX. Mtn Biking is BMX for grown ups.


Stunningly ignorant statement. Mountain biking has similarities to BMX, but BMX was absolutely not an influence on the development of the sport. In the '70s, BMX was marketed as a "safe" sport for kids. Original mountain biking was anything but that. When "BMX Action" did an article in 1980 about the Northern Californians and their crazy sport, they were careful to note how DISSIMILAR it was to BMX.

The Repack races are the origin of modern mountain biking. No one who saw a Repack race would have suggested that it was a "safe" sport or that the participants were kids. Until Jimmy Deaton won in 1983, seven years after the first race, none of the top Repack racers had ever raced BMX. When the SoCal BMXers saw what we were doing, it still took them five years to catch up.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Repack Rider said:


> Also, MountainBikes was not a reputable company.


Ha! Well, it's always nice when you find an old bike with this on the chainstay.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Is that a Klein?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

tductape said:


> Is that a Klein?


The oval seat tube should tell you that it's a Ritchey. Also the chain stays are round, not square.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> but BMX was absolutely not an influence on the development of the sport.


I would argue that the 26" UKAI and Araya 7X rims were produced due to the demand from the BMX Cruiser class of bicycles.

Huge influence.

Snakebellies, MP 1000's. Some other gold, red, and blue bits come to mind.

The Articles CK refers to. Thanks OMB:

Old Mountain Bikes: Ritchey Mountain Bike Review - February 1980

Old Mountain Bikes: Full Bore Cruisers - January 1980


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> The oval seat tube should tell you that it's a Ritchey. Also the chain stays are round, not square.


CK you know me better than that. It was a long running VRC joke because the bike shown has slicks on it. Slicks= Klein...


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

Repack Rider said:


> Stunningly ignorant statement. Mountain biking has similarities to BMX, but BMX was absolutely not an influence on the development of the sport. In the '70s, BMX was marketed as a "safe" sport for kids. Original mountain biking was anything but that. When "BMX Action" did an article in 1980 about the Northern Californians and their crazy sport, they were careful to note how DISSIMILAR it was to BMX.
> 
> The Repack races are the origin of modern mountain biking. No one who saw a Repack race would have suggested that it was a "safe" sport or that the participants were kids. Until Jimmy Deaton won in 1983, seven years after the first race, none of the top Repack racers had ever raced BMX. When the SoCal BMXers saw what we were doing, it still took them five years to catch up.


I can't figure out why you guys think you originated something that's been happening since people started riding bicycles. Some people, myself included, from the day they learned to ride have been driven to ride in the rough stuff as the Brits call it. As soon as I learned to ride I rode into the woods near my house. So did every kid I know. We'd ride any trail we could find. We raced had contests that involved tricks and we did it on BMX bikes because we were little and they fit. A lot of us continued onto mountain bikes. Our Elders did the same on whatever bikes they could find and so on as far back as bikes go. 
Europeans have been riding mountain specific bikes since the 20's. I know you know this. So my point is while the industry of mountain bikes may have started in Northern California the sport of mountain biking has been with us since the great invention of the bicycle. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's efforts but like I said earlier about Ritchey, you are a link in a long chain and youre somewhere in the middle.

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the comments about BMX, there are clear parallels. And if it wasn't for every kid in America having a BMX bike I'd bet there would be a hell of a lot less people mountain biking. But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the whole thing kicked off in the hills of Northern California. Maybe, but I don't think so.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> Stunningly ignorant statement. Mountain biking has similarities to BMX, but BMX was absolutely not an influence on the development of the sport. In the '70s, BMX was marketed as a "safe" sport for kids. Original mountain biking was anything but that. When "BMX Action" did an article in 1980 about the Northern Californians and their crazy sport, they were careful to note how DISSIMILAR it was to BMX.
> 
> The Repack races are the origin of modern mountain biking. No one who saw a Repack race would have suggested that it was a "safe" sport or that the participants were kids. Until Jimmy Deaton won in 1983, seven years after the first race, none of the top Repack racers had ever raced BMX. When the SoCal BMXers saw what we were doing, it still took them five years to catch up.


Mtn bikes brought the same BMX feeling to adults: riding w/ abandon, pulling stunts, jumping, going vertical. Repack had zero influence on my love for my mountain biking. I know millions pf people will say the same so call us ignorant because we absolutely ignore your "i have invented mountain biking"(zzzzz..) campaign. I like singletrack .. bombing fireroads is just boring. Fireroad cruisers are boring. I marvel at Charlie Cunningham racers and Indians.. not at those cruisers w/ long azz wheelbases. There you go.. have a nice day.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

colker1 said:


> Repack had zero influence on my love for my mountain biking.


But, those Repack bikes and riders influenced the mountain bike that you ride today.

The Honda Z50 Minitrail had the biggest influence on my personal pedal bike riding. I wanted to ride my dept. store kiddie bike just like a Z50 - and I did, in the dirt (to put this in context, this occurred in 1976) I didn't quite fit the Honda until I was 7.

I later had a BMX bike and a lightweight road bike, and started reading about "mountain bikes" in the early 80's as a pre-teen, and knew I'd have one at some point!

Without Repack, Charlie Kelly, Gary Fisher, the other early riders and builders, and dare I say Mike Sinyard, we all might still be riding BMX bikes...

Me on my Z (used to be my uncles) probably 1979:


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

MattBallman said:


> I can't figure out why you guys think you originated something that's been happening since people started riding bicycles. Some people, myself included, from the day they learned to ride have been driven to ride in the rough stuff as the Brits call it. As soon as I learned to ride I rode into the woods near my house. So did every kid I know.


And then you came up with the idea of running time trial downhill races, which drew new riders from all over the area and created a demand for better machinery, so you designed a derailleur geared 26" bike in adult sizes and built it to the demanding specifications of a European racing bike, and then you rented a building to assemble them in and sell them from and came up with a catchy name that was NOT "MountainBiikes," and then you found there was so much demand you couldn't begin to keep up and then a big manufacturer bought some of your bikes and copied them for mass production and then every other bike manufacturer copied your design, which quickly outsold every other type of bicycle and the name of your funky little company became the generic name for a new sport?

I must have missed all that. When is YOUR book coming out?


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> And then you came up with the idea of running time trial downhill races, which drew new riders from all over the area and created a demand for better machinery, so you designed a derailleur geared 26" bike in adult sizes and built it to the demanding specifications of a European racing bike, and then you rented a building to assemble them in and sell them from and came up with a catchy name that was NOT "MountainBiikes," and then you found there was so much demand you couldn't begin to keep up and then a big manufacturer bought some of your bikes and copied them for mass production and then every other bike manufacturer copied your design, which quickly outsold every other type of bicycle and the name of your funky little company became the generic name for a new sport?
> 
> I must have missed all that. When is YOUR book coming out?


C'mon, CK. He's not challenging your manhood, he's just trying to bring a conversation into this discussion.

ugh. Let's go back and talk about Tom Ritchey's talk, shall we?


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

Man, You need to learn your bicycle history. Everything you claim to have "designed was already done by the 30's In France. Instead of 26" wheels they did 650B, But the gears, demanding specs, etc. Man they invented that stuff. Timed downhill races? sure you can have credit for that But keep in mind guys were riding across mountains on timed events up and downhill on the same lightweight specialized machines. Improving and streamlining them all along. I love all bicycles and bicycling but you need to get over yourself. or don't. the world loves egomaniacs, especially when they fade int the sunset. Good luck to you CK. Im going for a nice ride in the woods.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

colker1 said:


> Mtn bikes brought the same BMX feeling to adults: riding w/ abandon, pulling stunts, jumping, going vertical. Repack had zero influence on my love for my mountain biking.


No argument there. Fewer than 200 people ever took part in a Repack race and you definitely were not one of them. But Repack is why the first modern mountain bikes came to be built, so whether or not it is a personal influence is immaterial to the fact that the sport and the machinery originated there.



> I know millions pf people will say the same so call us ignorant because we absolutely ignore your "i have invented mountain biking"(zzzzz..) campaign. I like singletrack .. bombing fireroads is just boring. Fireroad cruisers are boring. I marvel at Charlie Cunningham racers and Indians.. not at those cruisers w/ long azz wheelbases. There you go.. have a nice day.


There was a time when there were no mountain bikes. Now there are, so something must have happened. Your current preferences have no effect on what took place 40 years ago to create the world you enjoy today.

BTW, I have known Charlie Cunningham for over 40 years. In 1974 he made me a super-light custom seatpost for my Colnago. When we first started taking "klunkers" off road, he laughed at our bikes, because they were salvaged from the dump and weighed 30 pounds more than his did. He said he could ride his skinny tire, drop-bar bike on all the same trails and cover much more ground than we could, and that was certainly true. But the WHOLE PURPOSE of our pushing those beasts uphill for half an hour was not to "cover a lot of ground," it was for the smoking downhill runs, which didn't appeal to Charlie because his cyclocross-style bike would have been destroyed if he tried to match our speed on a hill like Repack. In 1980 Charlie came around to our philosophy and started building fat tire bikes, so if you are a fan of his bikes, you can also thank the people who started him on that path.

Charlie was terribly injured recently in a bike accident, so please send him your good thoughts and visit this gofundme page. It will be a long and difficult recovery for him.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

MattBallman said:


> Man, You need to learn your bicycle history. Everything you claim to have "designed was already done by the 30's In France. Instead of 26" wheels they did 650B, But the gears, demanding specs, etc. Man they invented that stuff.


I don't care to be lectured on bicycle history by anyone who is not Joe Breeze or Andrew Ritchie. I have an excellent personal library on the subject and I am a docent at the Marin Museum of Bicycling. I am aware that not only those French guys, but also the Cupertino boys in 1974 and the Larkspur Canyon Gang in 1971 were doing DH on 26" before I was.

What all those people DIDN'T do was create an ongoing competitive event for their bikes that drew riders from all over the area and outside their immediate circle of friends, design a bike specifically for that purpose, then build hundreds of them and sell them to the public.



> Timed downhill races? sure you can have credit for that But keep in mind guys were riding across mountains on timed events up and downhill on the same lightweight specialized machines. Improving and streamlining them all along.


Why don't you name a few of them?



> I love all bicycles and bicycling but you need to get over yourself. or don't. the world loves egomaniacs, especially when they fade int the sunset. Good luck to you CK. Im going for a nice ride in the woods.


I think I'll do the same. Because someone I don't know doesn't appreciate me, I will be forced to console my hurt feelings on one of the expensive bikes showered on me by big bicycle companies. Gosh, I have been given so many nice bikes that it's hard to pick which one I'll ride today. Does that ever happen to you?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> [Blah blah blah] When is YOUR book coming out?


I like this book better.



Book


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

Repack Rider said:


> I don't care to be lectured on bicycle history by anyone who is not Joe Breeze or Andrew Ritchie. I have an excellent personal library on the subject and I am a docent at the Marin Museum of Bicycling. I am aware that not only those French guys, but also the Cupertino boys in 1974 and the Larkspur Canyon Gang in 1971 were doing DH on 26" before I was.
> 
> What all those people DIDN'T do was create an ongoing competitive event for their bikes that drew riders from all over the area and outside their immediate circle of friends, design a bike specifically for that purpose, then build hundreds of them and sell them to the public.
> 
> ...


That must be wonderful! But I prefer to buy my own bikes with money I earned from running my business. Not from being near others while they run there business. And I'm sure a Brilliant inventor/builder like Charlie Cunningham really appreciates you showing him "The Way" I can't Imagine he would have found it without you. You are the defininition of the word BLOWHARD.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Shayne said:


> I like this book better.
> 
> 
> 
> Book


Hey, who built that cool bike on the cover?!?


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

Now there is some beautiful work!


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

I have the utmost respect for those that wield a torch and build their own bikes.


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

So do I, Same goes for parts. Bicycles are truly one of the greatest tools humans have made.


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## rismtb (Dec 11, 2012)

The way I see it is the sport of mtb/atb/offroad cycling in any form has been around even before the invention of the chain. The word "mountain bikes" which we all relate to a certain type of cycling was spawned/coined and first labeled by those free thinking pair of hippies we know and love and hate CK and GF. Nothing can change that. If you still can't wrap your brain around historical facts going on a long ride will help you to let go


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

BMX might not have directly influenced the guys in Marin but I think it helped pave the way for the widespread appeal and success of mountain bikes outside of Marin. A lot kids who grew up with BMX bikes in the 70s were naturals to buy a mtb in the 80s at their local LBS.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Shayne said:


> I like this book better.


Damnit man, I'm going to have to take back all those things I've said about you behind your back.

Oh, since DC chimed in step with CK, I will to. ME ME ME!


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Henry Chanski: Boy that escalated quickly.

No, not really. It's been going on for years.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

People who argue about who rode of road first are wasting their time. The "modern" bicycle was invented in the late 1890s. At that there were no no cars, and once you left a city there were no paved roads. Cities had cobblestone or brick roads, but the majority of roads were dirt were used by horses. The first bikes were ridden on dirt, because that's what existed.

When did the mountain bike come into existence and why? Argue over that if you want, but it to seems like a waste of time.

BMX impacted some individuals and some companies, but it did not impact all of them. I never rod a BMX bike as a kid. By the time I'd heard of them I was riding a "10-speed" road bike - often riding it off road. BMX didn't impact my desire to ride mountain bikes - to me BMX was a little kid's think. I started riding on banana seat bikes and BMX came later (again for kids). I'm sure the Marin riders where similar to me, as they were older than me and BMX did not exist when they were kids why would it affect their decision making? I'm sure BMX did impact people that came later and grew up with it, but that's not the older guys in the '70s.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

pinguwin said:


> Henry Chanski: Boy that escalated quickly.
> 
> No, not really. It's been going on for years.


Yeah, I've been posting here since the late 90s but somehow forget people can get all worked up on a forum. And I don't get back here enough anymore to know all the personalities. Kinda surprised that Facebook hasn't completely killed forums by now.

Anyway, I have a hard time getting too worked about about "early mtb history" mostly cause I thought those earlier bikes weren't that great to ride-too heavy and slow and clunky. I rode BMX bikes as a kid in the 70s and then went directly to road bikes and road racing as a teenager in the 80s. So I was riding my road and cross bikes in the dirt (same as Ritchey and Jobst Brandt and others). First mtb I rode that I thought handled quick enough was a Mountain Goat Whisketown Racer, and that was what, 1986 or 1987? I didn't even buy a mtb till '93 when I got a Bonty Race. It's actually that period of the early 90s that appeals to me the most, when mtbs were relatively light and nimble-bikes that actually climbed well-shortly before suspension took over.

I forgot what we were talking about. Oh yeah, Ritchey.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Classic no win no win situation. 

Many tire of CK beating his drum about his involvement in the "birth of the sport", and bag on him relentlessly. 

He, in turn, rightfully in my mind, defends his turf, and thus, the cycle continues. 

It will never be solved, too many working parts. 

Before we had paved roads, all cycling was on dirt, off road, etc. And yes, many kids (and their parents) delighted in thrashing whatever two wheels they had, on trails, for a long long time. 

CK and company were there pushing very hard, at a pivotal moment in history for cycling, and have rightfully earned a place in history for it. The name, the style/design of the equipment, the mode of competition, that all changed when they entered the scene, and that can't be taken away. 

I just wish everyone would just chill out with the pissing, on both sides, it gets really old, from both sides......


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

Well...I had know idea this is a recurring thing. What set me off was something not even directed at me "A stunningly ignorant statement" And I should have stayed out of it..But I love to fight when people get on the high horse. It's a fault in my character and I'm working on it. So, I'll try my best to refrain in the future from getting involved in something that I don't really care about. Anybody can believe what they want. So I'll avoid CK and these clunk/downhill/west coast discussions.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Many tire of CK beating his drum about his involvement in the "birth of the sport", and bag on him relentlessly.


I think the thread has some newcomers so it's not the many that tire and bag relentlessly. But that's not important. It's same old, same old and several members tried to get us back on course to no avail.

Once again, let's talk about Tom's talk, please. Focus, people!

For those that watched the entire video clip, can you provide some neat points of interest mentioned in the discussion?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> For those that watched the entire video clip, can you provide some neat points of interest mentioned in the discussion?


I played the video clip while I was working. It was in the background (much like the radio often is) so it didn't take up too much time. It's worth the listen.

One of the interesting bits is about Columbus tubing. In the edited version it only includes that they named their tubeset "Genius." In the full version Tom explains that the butts in tubes were long do to overheating during mass production. He wanted shorter lighter butts (he apparently does not like big butts). Tom went to Columbus to have the tubes made, they said no problem. He then said he wanted directional butting - the top and bottom of the tube would have thicker butts than the sides of the tube. Columbus tried to make the tubes but could not do it. Tom then went to Tange, they figured out how to make the tubes that Tom wanted, and Logic tubing was born. Years later Columbus figured out how to make the same tubes and introduced their product "Genius." The full story is much better.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

MattBallman said:


> Well...I had know idea this is a recurring thing.


You can imagine how the rest of us feel being told the same story over and over and talked to like lesser mountain bikers because of it.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

laffeaux said:


> I played the video clip while I was working. It was in the background (much like the radio often is) so it didn't take up too much time. It's worth the listen.
> 
> One of the interesting bits is about Columbus tubing. In the edited version it only includes that they named their tubeset "Genius." In the full version Tom explains that the butts in tubes were long do to overheating during mass production. He wanted shorter lighter butts (he apparently does not like big butts). Tom went to Columbus to have the tubes made, they said no problem. He then said he wanted directional butting - the top and bottom of the tube would have thicker butts than the sides of the tube. Columbus tried to make the tubes but could not do it. Tom then went to Tange, they figured out how to make the tubes that Tom wanted, and Logic tubing was born. Years later Columbus figured out how to make the same tubes and introduced their product "Genius." The full story is much better.


Thanks for the Cliffs!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

MattBallman said:


> So do I, Same goes for parts. Bicycles are truly one of the greatest tools humans have made.


Yes. Exactly.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Henry Chinaski said:


> BMX might not have directly influenced the guys in Marin but I think it helped pave the way for the widespread appeal and success of mountain bikes outside of Marin. A lot kids who grew up with BMX bikes in the 70s were naturals to buy a mtb in the 80s at their local LBS.


Exactly! Bingo..


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Untill the 70s, road bikes had relaxed angles, no saddle to hbar drop and slightly fatter tires. There were randonneur bikes in the 50s that would go everywhere in comfort but in the 60s and 70s, everyone went commuting by car killing the utility bicycle. Road bikes also became steeper and tires thinner. It was uncomfortable, something only an athlete could ride. The alternative was the Balloon cruiser and they are heavy bad climbers. There was no middleground.. there wasn't a go everywhere bicycle anymore.
When the mountain bike got shorter wheelbases along w/ 18speeds in the mid 80s it became this playfull, utility bicycle you could put a rack on and go everywhere carrying whatever you wanted. Cars and traffic became villains. Bam.. everybody wants a mountain bike to ride in the streets, jump around, have fun while going everywhere. So more money to Shimano develop lighter and safer stuff. Big huge success. Mass production and tig welding in Taiwan. 
It was not about the sport of downhilling but the versatility of this bike and how people could ride like kids again.. 
Tomac came from BMX as well, btw.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

If you listen to the whole lecture, Tom addresses this very topic more eloquently than anything written in this thread.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> Why don't you name a few of them?


Pass hunting. It's still popular in Japan.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

So, did TR invent a few things in the early days and just stop inventing. Because, I don't see anything ground breaking at his web site. In fact, it's like going back in time 20 years. It doesn't seem like he's kept up with changes in the industry at all.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

tductape said:


> If you listen to the whole lecture, Tom addresses this very topic more eloquently than anything written in this thread.


But that is too much work and this is the internet


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 26, 2006)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, did TR invent a few things in the early days and just stop inventing. Because, I don't see anything ground breaking at his web site. In fact, it's like going back in time 20 years. It doesn't seem like he's kept up with changes in the industry at all.


Lots on him to read out there. You could start with Wikipedia. It's hard to think of an American who has innovated more than Ritchey.

I just really appreciate that he has stuck to the simple, clean, minimalist aesthetic and never really been one to pursue hype. His designs are influenced by where he lives and rides. Personally not a huge fan of fillet brazing but his stuff is beautiful and timeless. His current stems, bars, seatposts are my favorite currently available on the market (along with the more industrial looking Thomson stuff). I'm not a big believer in "ride quality" but every time I ride my Breakaway road I'm amazed by how he could get such a supple ride out of such a short wheelbase bike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Ritchey


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So, did TR invent a few things in the early days and just stop inventing. Because, I don't see anything ground breaking at his web site. In fact, it's like going back in time 20 years. It doesn't seem like he's kept up with changes in the industry at all.


The Logical thing to do would be at least to listen to the video yourself.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I see TR as a guy who refines things to a point no one thought possible. Refinement is what makes the world move forward and not radical break ups w/ the past. The past always returns and refinement makes those returns brilliant


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

colker1 said:


> I see TR as a guy who refines things to a point no one thought possible. Refinement is what makes the world move forward and not radical break ups w/ the past. The past always returns and refinement makes those returns brilliant


As far as bicycles go, it has all been about refinement for well over a millennium.


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

a millenium? Wow...


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

MattBallman said:


> a millenium? Wow...


I wanted to be sure I hit on the cave man who figured out the wheel.


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## MattBallman (Sep 22, 2015)

tductape said:


> I wanted to be sure I hit on the cave man who figured out the wheel.


 I think he quit posting a few responses back and went to ride one of the Mountain Bikes(tm) he's been showered with...


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

tductape said:


> I wanted to be sure I hit on the cave man.....


Not really a good idea, cavemen get the wrong idea rather easily....

As far as TR stopping forward motion in innovation?

I don't know, does he really need to determine that 143.625463 mm hub spacing is truly an improvement over 130, 135, 142, 144, 150 etc?

Cause we already have those and now "Boost" too, which naturally just makes riding so much better, it's a wonder I can ride on a 135 spaced non through axle bike and not die.....

Not directed at anyone really, just a retrogrouchy rant about the general silliness of the industry and it's lovely shifting sands of "standards".

Don't get me started on how TR could improve on bottom brackets by making them dual diameter, quad bearing, step down ID press fit, designs with a 34.3mm spindle that the whole industry rushes to only to have him realize that 34.624 mm really ramps up the vertical compliance whilst maintaining lateral stiffness.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Let's say Ritchey has stopped innovating. So what? 

He isn't some dummy who has been around for 40 years but someone who has thought deeply about the problems and solutions of mtb'ing. If there is someone to listen to who can offer perspective of the industry over time, he is among them. Also, the industry is so big today that no one person can have the same effect as a person some years ago.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

^agreed^


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