# Nino on Discs...



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

to some this might sound unreal but hey - i'm open for everything:thumbsup: 

ok - let's get this straight right at the beginning: my Scale will once again have V-brakes next year but this will be my winterbike. it gets used in mud and snow only where discs sure have an advantage. what also helps is the fact i don't have to pay full price. i would never ever get discs if i had to pay full price!

anyway - here's what i have so far. the brakelines still need to be shortened. i also need to bleed them as there's almost no feel in the rear brake. NO GOOD. please Avid, get that straight! people don't like to get such high-wnd parts which don't perform...

i already installed my lightweight disc-rotors and they already perform great. and they look sweet as well, don't they? the bike once finished, will weigh 8,5 kilo/ 17,5 lbs. not bad for a bike built with left-overs of my basement


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*sorry.....*

but the rotors are fugly! kinda ironic that for a winter bike you are using
american classic hubs...good luck with that.


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

Yea, I've seen those rotors before and I don't like their serrated look at all.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> Yea, I've seen those rotors before and I don't like their serrated look at all.


i like them A LOT better. they look sharp.

pictured below the standard discs of the Juicy Ultimate (180 and 160mm)


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

well the juicy ultimate rotors also look like crap


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Nino, I can't undestand WHY you think disc brakes are so expensive.
Some V-brakes are more expensive than disc brakes.

Let's take the Extralite UltraBrakes. You know the cost on these so compare them to the cost of Avid Jucy 7. The Juciy 7 is $12 less than the Extralite UltraBrake. The Ultimates are only $18 more per end.

Magura Marta SL are $9 more and the Marta is cheaper!

Sure I am comparing one of the most expensive V-brakes against common disc brakes, but still. 

Hell even some Road calipers are close in pricing. Like the SRAM Force. These are only less than $30 on the Marta SL or Juicy 7

Now, add in the price of some Nokon cables and the price is more. Transfil Flying Snakes and the prices is even.

You get more for you money in terms of performance and material for you money.

Yes disc brakes have issues, but so do v-brakes. Nothing worse than you wheel going out of true and have your brakes rub. This happens much more often then warping rotors. Yes, v-brakes are easier to maintain and set-up.

IO think you will plensently suprised on how well disc brakes work. But by looking at how thin those rotors you are using are and lack of braking surface you might be disapointed.

Also IMO, Avid Hydro brakes are not up to par with Magura, Fromula or even XTR. The Ultimates for 07 might be. The mechs now are another story.

If you rotors are not performing then try another brand of brakes to see you you truly like hydro disc brakes. I tried the Jucy 7 and I did not like them The pad adjustment was nice over Magura, but that's it!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

I agree on the Ultimate rotors. Nino's look ok. 

I prefer the Marta SL, The 2 peice HOPE and the 07 XTR rotors look sweet!


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## robnfl (Jul 26, 2005)

Wow...I wish I had American Wheels and Avid Juicy Ultimates just laying around in my basement 


Rob


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

nino said:


> ok - let's get this straight right at the beginning: my Scale will once again have V-brakes next year but this will be my winterbike. it gets used in mud and snow only where discs sure have an advantage. what also helps is the fact i don't have to pay full price. i would never ever get discs if i had to pay full price!


YEAH, everyone! :nono: (<~ shaking finger in scorn)

He'll put his v-brakes back on next year when it's nice and dry again .....

..... then realize they suck! :lol:  

Just playin', Nino.  

MODS - is it against MTBR rules to start a pool about what Nino will be running next year?!?!??!?!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*V's!!*



AndrewTO said:


> MODS - is it against MTBR rules to start a pool about what Nino will be running next year?!?!??!?!


i already ordered the new Mavic Crosmax SLR V-BRAKE wheelset so you bet i'm using V's also next year


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

nino said:


> i already ordered the new Mavic Crosmax SLR V-BRAKE wheelset so you bet i'm using V's also next year


Replacing the Tune wheelset?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> Replacing the Tune wheelset?


correct.10g lighter and no need for rimstrips with tubeless so actually saving 50g. that's one of the lightest option to run ceramic rims these days.


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

nino said:


> correct.10g lighter and no need for rimstrips with tubeless so actually saving 50g. that's one of the lightest option to run ceramic rims these days.


Claimed weight at 1420 g ...do you know the actual weight though?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*correct...*



eurorider said:


> Claimed weight at 1420 g ...do you know the actual weight though?


i weighed them at eurobike.weights are correct. bt i was wrong above. my Tune wheels weighed 1420.so it's 10g more. i'm only saving 30g overall.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*You worry about expensive disc brakes...*

but you are buying on of the most expensive wheelst around? Even at cost, those are not cheap!

By I aggree for REAL UST and Cermaic rims, it's the ONLY way to go. 
Even the Disc version is very hard to beat, espically if the hubs just a see a slight improvment.

I am thinking losng and hard about a pair. BUT since I can't get them at cost right now, I will stick with my heaiver wheels. Not worth the price.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

And a much better rim than the ZTR line.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> And a much better rim than the ZTR line.


correct - and i get them lower than "cost" - this helps


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

Got a league of yer own, Nino!!! COoL, Dude! :thumbsup: 

Sorry but I haven't kept up with this thread... What's the make of your frame?

TIA!


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## Kris (Jun 15, 2004)

Feck me, that's the nicest "winter beater" I've ever seen! It's nicer than my race rig, one of those fancy discs you have there is worth more than my winter beater! Good work!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*0815 Scandium...*



Onie said:


> Got a league of yer own, Nino!!! COoL, Dude! :thumbsup:
> 
> Sorry but I haven't kept up with this thread... What's the make of your frame?
> 
> TIA!


nothing special. it's a 0815 taiwan made scandium frame. it weighs 1370g in size M (on paper it weighed 1250g...maybe in size XXS...oh well)


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

I'm sorry I have some dumb questions . . .

Those disks aren't ti are they?

What are the lightest disk levers and calipers? Formula puro oro or something? 

I'm just shocked nino doesn't use the lighter disks - carbon-ti 62 grams. 

I can vouch v-brakes with ceramic (and even grippy pads on alloy rims) have great power and have good control (not locking up on every gravel descend) . I just end up shaving my pads off rapidly - losing the correct toe. However, I can see myself putting disks on a Scott Spark. I wonder if the ti disks would work okay with me at my 194lbs on hilly terrain in northern california.  Or if 180 front 160mm rear carbon-ti's would work for me. The thought intrigues me. 

Happy Thanks everybody! Go get your PS3's. (I'll get meh bike parts)


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*steel rotors...*



Slobberdoggy said:


> I'm sorry I have some dumb questions . . .
> 
> Those disks aren't ti are they?
> 
> ...


those are steel rotors. very light ones!

i just finished the bike and did several spins around the block and the brakes got WAY up in power!! especially the front has almost too much brakepower and even before i did my 1st real ride i am thinking of "downgrading" to the smaller 160mm rotor in the front. when i pull the lever the fork seems to collapse really insane and abrupt power. i'm ashamed but have to say i really like these brakes although i don't think the Spinner Aeris is suited for this kind of power. and i definitely won't put a sturdier, heavier fork in there (although i have a brandnew Reba WC on hand...) i might get a rigid aluminium fork. i like riding full rigid anyway during the winter. 1st ride will happen tomorrow but i see twisting the Spinner like a wet noodle when braking hard....the real test will be how the brakes perform on longer descents. i'll let you know and will take pics of the bike tomorrow. it looks sweet and rides good. not nearly as agile as my Scale but it's ok. it now sits at 8,6 kilos with heavy XT cassette and real rubber grips. i won't put foam grips as those don't provide a firm grip when things get sloppy.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> those are steel rotors. very light ones!
> 
> i just finished the bike and did several spins around the block and the brakes got WAY up in power!! especially the front has almost too much brakepower and even before i did my 1st real ride i am thinking of "downgrading" to the smaller 160mm rotor in the front. when i pull the lever the fork seems to collapse really insane and abrupt power. i'm ashamed but have to say i really like these brakes although i don't think the Spinner Aeris is suited for this kind of power. and i definitely won't put a sturdier, heavier fork in there (although i have a brandnew Reba WC on hand...) i might get a rigid aluminium fork. i like riding full rigid anyway during the winter. 1st ride will happen tomorrow but i see twisting the Spinner like a wet noodle when braking hard....the real test will be how the brakes perform on longer descents. i'll let you know and will take pics of the bike tomorrow. it looks sweet and rides good. not nearly as agile as my Scale but it's ok. it now sits at 8,6 kilos with heavy XT cassette and real rubber grips. i won't put foam grips as those don't provide a firm grip when things get sloppy.


Pretty good right? try those hills out and see what happens. Your right about those forks. Disc brakes require stiff shocks. The power on some disc brakes CAN be too much. But if they are set-up right, modualtion, power and fell WILL be much better. It's just the nature of the beast.

If you come to the dark side a WW, we will welcome you!

Wow, Nino on disc brakes and SOON to be UST wheels :thumbsup: :eekster:.
Stuff I have been preaching about for years now....

Let's see if you think UST rims work better than Eclipse rimstrips. Not asking you to rip a frind in Andy, but give an honest and objective opinion.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Slobberdoggy said:


> I can vouch v-brakes with ceramic (and even grippy pads on alloy rims) have great power and have good control (not locking up on every gravel descend) . I just end up shaving my pads off rapidly - losing the correct toe. However, I can see myself putting disks on a Scott Spark. I wonder if the ti disks would work okay with me at my 194lbs on hilly terrain in northern california.  Or if 180 front 160mm rear carbon-ti's would work for me. The thought intrigues me.


I agree that good set-up of v-brakes with ceramic rims can have as much power and modualtion as disc brakes. My Avid Arch Rival brakes up fron with cermaic rims has the almost the same power as my disc brakes. Just the disc are slighty better in the wet, much better in mud and take far less effort to modulate and brakes hard.

At you weight a 180mm up front will be perfect for you!! I think you will be suprised on how much better nice, set-up well disc brakes can be.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*



DIRT BOY said:


> Pretty good right? try those hills out and see what happens. Your right about those forks. Disc brakes require stiff shocks. The power on some disc brakes CAN be too much. But if they are set-up right, modualtion, power and fell WILL be much better. It's just the nature of the beast.
> 
> If you come to the dark side a WW, we will welcome you!
> 
> ...


what should a UST rim be better at? it holds air - that's it. no better than a regular rim equipped with Tubelesskit. i did many Crossmax wheels with sealant during all those past years. my opinion is the Eclipse kit makes for a thighter fit which makes inflation easier. but so far UST wheelsets have been too heavy. the SLR however is in the ballpark.

i will most likely go with a rigid fork. we shall see hopw the brakes perfrom in the mud. it has plenty of it around here....


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*1st ride completed...*

i just did my first ride using discs and have mixed feelings:
first of all brakepower is really, really good. my setup is extremely powerful which is what i really liked. BUT i had a hard time today in the slightly muddy conditions. modulation was BAD. these brakes are really too powerful locking up the wheels easily which made me almost crash 2 times in the twisty singletrack downhill section. you know that kind of hardpack underneath with a thin slippery cover and covered with 4 inches of leaves...very slippery....feathering the brakes seems impossible. they are on or off. maybe i need some more riding time adapting to the different feel but i'm used to powerful brakes, just not this very abrupt amount of power. i will ride the bike a couple of times as it is now. maybe i adapt but i honestly don't think so. i might install the smaller 160mm disc in the front hoping for better modulation. otherwise i'll have to try different pad compound. i installed and rode other Avid Juicy Carbons this year but none had this amount of power. strange. maybe the Ultimates i have use a different pad material? the Juicy Carbons i rode, also brandnew never felt this powerful. they were definitely weaker than my v-brakes.

don't get me wrong. the power is awesome. but there is lack of modulation. i am really riding on the edge sometimes just using the brakes to stabilize in corners. really just feathering the levers. now this "feathering" already locks the wheels sending me off the line...really strange. maybe it's just getting used to it. we will see.

here's what the bike looks like. i might change the silver housings for black ones. i initially thought some silver would do good but i think black would look better. i shortened the brakelines as well. a real easy job on the Avids. it now sits at 8,6 kilos. my titanium cassette will bring it down to 8,5 which is ok for the winter-season

i need a shorter stem as the top tube is slightly longer than it was on the Scale streching me too far forward. and the steering is definitely slower. that's what i loved the most on my Scale, that super quick steering, some call it nervousness, paired to the extremely light weight. now everything seems a bit relaxed. a bit slower. winding singletracks can't be flicked with the same ease as before. the Scale felt like a part of my body, like glued to my a$$. it would let you flow effortless. this one needs some more rider input to steer. what i really, really hate is the top cable routing! why in hell would you want the cables up there? they bang on the top tube and simply are in my way.

i just built the same bike for a friends son and we got a brandnew shimano XT front derailleur. on the actual group you have to use adapters to fit them on slim frames. they come in 34,9 size and you shim them down. well - the actual XT front derailleur weighs 175g!!!! the old version i currently use is 125g and i should get an older XTR at 108g soon. what are those guys doing in Japan?parts seem to get heavier and heavier all the time.

spec sheet:
frame: 0815 Scandium 1371g
headset: American Classic 79g
fork: Spinner Aeris 1250g
stem: Syntace f99 Ti 103g
handlebar: FRM carbon (560mm) 105g
grips: Pedro's Rubber 49g
shift levers: XT without gear display 222g
brakes: Avid Juicy Ultimate, Nino's Rotors ca. 700g (my fault, didn't measure the actual setup)
wheelset: American Classic Disc 1466g
tubes: Eclipse Tubelesskit 210g
tires: Schwalbe Nobby Nic 1,8" (389/414g)
skewers: steel bolt-ons 65g
BB: scandium 68/113 184g (incl bolts)
crankset: Race Face Next LP 536g
cassette: XT 11-32,Al lockring 252g
chain: KMC X 10 SL 225g
front derailleur: XT 122g (Al-bolt)
rear derailleur: XTR 950 207g
seatpost clamp: generic 21g
seatpost: KCNC Ti-Pro 27,2/350 142g
saddle: stripped SLR 115g
cables: Nino's ultralight ca.50g (didn't weigh them)

total on digital hanging scale 8,60 kilos


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

nino said:


> i just did my first ride using discs and have mixed feelings:
> first of all brakepower is really, really good. my setup is extremely powerful which is what i really liked. BUT i had a hard time today in the slightly muddy conditions. modulation was BAD. these brakes are really too powerful locking up the wheels easily which made me almost crash 2 times in the twisty singletrack downhill section. you know that kind of hardpack underneath with a thin slippery cover and covered with 4 inches of leaves...very slippery....feathering the brakes seems impossible. they are on or off. maybe i need some more riding time adapting to the different feel but i'm used to powerful brakes, just not this very abrupt amount of power. i will ride the bike a couple of times as it is now. maybe i adapt but i honestly don't think so. i might install the smaller 160mm disc in the front hoping for better modulation. otherwise i'll have to try different pad compound. i installed and rode other Avid Juicy Carbons this year but none had this amount of power. strange. maybe the Ultimates i have use a different pad material? the Juicy Carbons i rode, also brandnew never felt this powerful. they were definitely weaker than my v-brakes.
> 
> don't get me wrong. the power is awesome. but there is lack of modulation. i am really riding on the edge sometimes just using the brakes to stabilize in corners. really just feathering the levers. now this "feathering" already locks the wheels sending me off the line...really strange. maybe it's just getting used to it. we will see.
> ...


A few things about the brakes, Nino;

You need to re-learn how to use them. Give it time ..... it won't take long. This is the biggest factor in your equation.

The pads need time to "break in". You will actually find they will become even more powerfull than they are now.

Not sure where you have them set to, but you may want to look into adjusting the pad contact - back it off and this should help you.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*i'm familiar with discs...*



AndrewTO said:


> A few things about the brakes, Nino;
> 
> You need to re-learn how to use them. Give it time ..... it won't take long. This is the biggest factor in your equation.
> 
> ...


i have oversize discs on my motocrosser , really really powerful. letting you do front wheelies with 1 fingertip. and i really can say i'm a capable rider. but on the bike these feel a bit too agressive. on grippy soil this is no problem but as i said the terrain is extremely slippery right now and you have to be very "soft" riding avoiding to much movement otherwise you wash out. i couldn't modulate them as i wanted. maybe i get used to them but they feel to much on/off right now.

now the setup is another story. i already wrote that i think they need bleeding. i now have the bike in the basement with some elastics squeezing th brakes, the front wheel lifted so trapped air can come upwards into the reservoir. that's an old fashioned way to "bleed" the brakes. the rear brake is much closer to the handlebar than the front, regardless of the adjsutements i do. there is also toomuch freeplay inthe lever. i would like the levers closer to the handlebar and the brakepoint close to the zero-position. you understand? i would like to get rid of the big amount of freeplay in the levers. so far the adjusters didn't help. maybe i still need a well done bleeding job?


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

*Try stock discs*

You might want to try the stock discs. I think the discs you have there might dig into the pads, causing the pads to grab a lot when you don't apply the brakes so hard. Trail riders use seriously wavy discs for the same effect. Or try sintered pads, they are harder and won't allow the discs to dig in.

Ole.


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

nino said:


> i have oversize discs on my motocrosser , really really powerful. letting you do front wheelies with 1 fingertip. and i really can say i'm a capable rider. but on the bike these feel a bit too agressive. on grippy soil this is no problem but as i said the terrain is extremely slippery right now and you have to be very "soft" riding avoiding to much movement otherwise you wash out. i couldn't modulate them as i wanted. maybe i get used to them but they feel to much on/off right now.
> 
> now the setup is another story. i already wrote that i think they need bleeding. i now have the bike in the basement with some elastics squeezing th brakes, the front wheel lifted so trapped air can come upwards into the reservoir. that's an old fashioned way to "bleed" the brakes. the rear brake is much closer to the handlebar than the front, regardless of the adjsutements i do. there is also toomuch freeplay inthe lever. i would like the levers closer to the handlebar and the brakepoint close to the zero-position. you understand? i would like to get rid of the big amount of freeplay in the levers. so far the adjusters didn't help. maybe i still need a well done bleeding job?


I understand you're familiarity with disc brakes in the moto world, Nino, and I respect that. You do, however, have to understand that there are differences here at play which must be respected. Maybe not BIG differences, but differences nonetheless. I believe that with time you will simply get used to what you're finding right now ..... which is simply unfamiliarity.

I also understand that you want to take "slop" out of the levers, but my suggestion was based solely on your comment that you feel the brakes are "too grabby". Perhaps I misunderstodd your complaint about the brakes?

At any rate bleeding the system isn't a typical necessity with a brand new brake system, but there's no gaurantees in life, so it may very well be a possibility. I don't see how it could hurt, so carry on.

Gotta wonder about Ole's suggestion with rotors. :skep: Interesting thought, for sure.

Nino, one last note, and i'm not 100% sure how much this applies - working on the bike in a warm basement and riding it outside in cool temps can make bike parts do weird things, especially where things like air and density are concerned. Think tires and you'll know what I mean.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*thanks...*



AndrewTO said:


> I understand you're familiarity with disc brakes in the moto world, Nino, and I respect that. You do, however, have to understand that there are differences here at play which must be respected. Maybe not BIG differences, but differences nonetheless. I believe that with time you will simply get used to what you're finding right now ..... which is simply unfamiliarity.
> 
> I also understand that you want to take "slop" out of the levers, but my suggestion was based solely on your comment that you feel the brakes are "too grabby". Perhaps I misunderstodd your complaint about the brakes?
> 
> ...


thanks for the help. as written above i am well aware that i have to get accustomed first. i will continue as it is now for the bnext couple of days. it's just that the rear doesn't seem to be that aggressive. it is still very powerful but more linear in feel. so i thought it has more to do with the bigger rotor in the front. anyway- i will sure put the standard rotors as well BUT i prefer power over weak brakes especially with the weight penalty discs have the Juicy Carbons i installed on my friends bike would be too weak for my liking. i just don't like that sudden power. maybe the smaller rotor or different pads will cure that.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

AndrewTO said:


> Nino, one last note, and i'm not 100% sure how much this applies - working on the bike in a warm basement and riding it outside in cool temps can make bike parts do weird things, especially where things like air and density are concerned. Think tires and you'll know what I mean.


I have to agree with this 100%. I put XTR caliper/Xt levers on my NRS, and I shortened the lines appropriately. I never got the time to do the bleed properly. They worked, but there was a lot of "freeplay" in the levers. Consequently, I had the levers far from the bar to allow enough travel to get strong braking, and could not do "1 finger" braking because the lever was too far from the bar.

Then winter came (well as much as winter comes to Vancouver BC)! We had a bit of a cold snap that lasted 1 night. It got below freezing (don't know for sure, but I think it was just below 0 celcius). I went out to ride to work on the bike that morning (still cold out) and the first time I applied the brakes, I nearly went over the bars. Somehow the brakes were now perfectly bled. I don't know if the cold somehow forced the air out of the lines, but ever since then the brakes have worked fabulously.

I had my first dirt ride today on the new bike (yikes, that took almost a month). The brakes worked fantastic. It was wet and sloppy, but no mud to speak of. I was 1 finger braking everywhere, and they were extremely easy to modulate. In fast sections with lots of switchbacks, I could run the rear brake for about 75-80% of my braking, and only locked on the rare occasion where I didn't get on the front brake soon enough. I'm not lightweight by any means (about 210 lbs with all the gear), and I'm running Avid Clean Sweep G2 160mm rotors front and rear.

Nino,

What chainrings and bolts are you using on your Next LPs? I have pretty much exactly the same setup as you on my NRS as far as cranks, pedals and BB, and wondered where your weight came from (crank arms, chainrings, bolts, etc...).


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> Nino,
> 
> What chainrings and bolts are you using on your Next LPs? I have pretty much exactly the same setup as you on my NRS as far as cranks, pedals and BB, and wondered where your weight came from (crank arms, chainrings, bolts, etc...).


i could have them even lighter but my light rings are still on my powerarms on the Scale.
the rings i actually use are a mixture of some shaved rings of all sorts. XT 44, token 32 and 22.

pictures taken i think last yer.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

couple questions.... what exactly makes this a WINTER bike? i mean besides the disc and the cheaper frame, thats a pretty aggressive mainly xc bike still... haha and might I add nicer than most other people on here's bikes.

Also nino on crossmax's next year??? who would have thought it. My question is though what are you going for here? trying to balance light weight of v's with some extra stopping power of ceramics? Guess I'm questioning what the trade off is. 
SLRs = 1420g + whatever the weight of your ceramic v's are.
Ultra light V brake wheels 1250g + weight of v brakes
Disc brakes = 1350g + 700g for formula disc brakes


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*answers...*



bhsavery said:


> couple questions.... what exactly makes this a WINTER bike? i mean besides the disc and the cheaper frame, thats a pretty aggressive mainly xc bike still... haha and might I add nicer than most other people on here's bikes.
> 
> Also nino on crossmax's next year??? who would have thought it. My question is though what are you going for here? trying to balance light weight of v's with some extra stopping power of ceramics? Guess I'm questioning what the trade off is.
> SLRs = 1420g + whatever the weight of your ceramic v's are.
> ...


a winterbike for me is a beater i don't care as much. i know i have a pretty nice beater here but it's built with parts i had laying around or parts i get a very good deals.

Discs just because it gets ridden in mud and snow only where discs have an advantage.

well  - i'm getting the SLRs as for me ceramic rims are a must to get the best out of Vs. i want very powerful brakes and ceramic rims do just that. they add a huge amount of power wet and dry. and i definitely run my tires "tubeless" so you have to take that into account as well which is what makes the SLRs pretty interesting. and also that i get them cheaper than a set of Tune or Extralite wheels...

numbers:
SLRs = 1420g + Extralite V's 188 + Extralite levers 64g + cables ca. 40g = 1712g
Ultra light V brake wheels 1250g + Eclipse rimstrips/Valves 70g + Extralite V's 188 + Extralite levers 64g + cables ca. 40g = 1612g
Disc brakes = 1350g + Eclipse Rimstrip/Valves 70g + 700g for Formula Discbrake = 2120g

...discs ad almost a pound
...and cost a fortune

by the way - today i went riding again and the trails i did today were more exposed to the sun which made them real tacky. as guessed on grippy terrain the brakes feel great. but as soon as it got slippery i still have some problems. but it felt already better today. brakepower is really, really good. i couldn't ask for more. some mudholes we crossed were pretty deep where on V's you need to "clean" the brakes first before braking the next time. not so with the disc. cool however as said, going over wet and slippery roots the brakes are still a bit touchy. maybe i get accustomed but there's simply too much power on hand right away.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Again you say disc brakes cost a fortune...*

but that is false if you compare them to high-end v-brakes.

Yes, disc brakes cost more than every other v-brrake except for the Extralite UltraBrakes/UltraLevers which costs MORE nott counting nice cables. Plus add that ceramic rims cost more the price is very close. Discs cost more because there is more material, enginnering and power.

Also a pund is average. You are comparing average disc brakes. Lighter disc brakes with comparable wheels it's aound 2/3-3/4lb heavier and for 85% of people more power and better performace.

I aslo had Tune/ZTR disc sets come in around 1250-1300g so the weight is still close.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*endless debate...*



DIRT BOY said:


> but that is false if you compare them to high-end v-brakes.
> 
> Yes, disc brakes cost more than every other v-brrake except for the Extralite UltraBrakes/UltraLevers which costs MORE nott counting nice cables. Plus add that ceramic rims cost more the price is very close. Discs cost more because there is more material, enginnering and power.
> 
> ...


when you go all out you can get ca. 1100-1150g V-brake wheels. Disc wheels are heavier regadless what you do. also the brakes themselves add to the weight regadless if you run weak aluminium rotors (weak in the power departement which neglects any benefit of the discs).

if you want powerful Discs you need steel rotors. so 700g is about the weight that can be achieved if i'm not totally wrong. powerful discbrakes need pretty stiff wheels as well. no 28 revolutions here unless you are a lightweight rider. you usually need slightly heavier spokes (either spokecount or diameter of spokes). i can see what forces my fork and wheel go through now. i never had a fork tweaked like that before. the discs also demand stiffer forks...it's an endless story.

sure the Extralite ain't cheap but discs are still more expensive as are the disc-wheels.

if you want it real cheap you can still buy the Vuelta Magnesium V's which are 1/3rd the cost of the Extralites only adding a couple of grams while also offering more brakepower


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

I'm not going to weigh in on the V-brake debate. You know I'm on your side there. I'm also thinking about the SLRs but, I still think the SLRs are heavy and appear to have lost a great deal of their weight this year with lighter hubs. The rims themselves are still heavy compared to a ZTR, for instance. I dunno about you but I'm more interested in the rotational mass on a wheel and I worry about this a bit with the SLRs. Also, maybe I missed this along the way at some point but, why do you have your beloved Spinner Aeris on your winter beater bike? What's up with that?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*You forget that*

that disc rims are lighter and some disc hubs very close in weight espically if you use center-lock hubs.

yes, it's an endless debate. But resonalbly the weight penalty is under 1lb, the cost is not that much more as you mention/think.

Yes, generaly a stiffer fork will work, but how mnay guys race SIDs with disc brakes? Personally I feel it's stupid.


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## leeco (Jan 22, 2004)

Where can someone purchase one of these frames?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Axis II said:


> I'm not going to weigh in on the V-brake debate. You know I'm on your side there. I'm also thinking about the SLRs but, I still think the SLRs are heavy and appear to have lost a great deal of their weight this year with lighter hubs. The rims themselves are still heavy compared to a ZTR, for instance. I dunno about you but I'm more interested in the rotational mass on a wheel and I worry about this a bit with the SLRs. Also, maybe I missed this along the way at some point but, why do you have your beloved Spinner Aeris on your winter beater bike? What's up with that?


well-

as you say light rims are important.

since i want ceramic rims the choice these days is somewhat limited. on my old Tune wheelsets i have some older Matrix ceramic rims with 28 spokes at 420g. just the 28 spokeholes will bring you in trouble these days as no one makes ceramic rims with 28-holes anymore adding 20g in spokes right away (4 spokes+nipples). the actual DT or Mavic 717 ceramic rims are all about 430-440g. now add the 20g for the 32 spokes and also 35g for a rimstrip setup to be able to run them tubeless and voilà, the SLRs seem a pretty, pretty good choice! anyway - if i don't like them i'll sell them agai. i still have 2 sets of my Tune wheels which served me so well over these past years. my lightweight 1260g wheelset is cool. it is light BUT it lacks brakepower when paired to the Extralite brakes. to a degree i have to go slower which is definitely not what i am looking for.

the Spinner is on my winterbike because it is too heavy to go on my light bike! at about 1260g with cantistuds it is 120g heavier than my tuned SID. it is also 15mm longer which tames the Scales geometry down a bit. and i really, really like the extremely agressive handling of the Scale. now the winterbike feels real slow. you need some force to make it steer when compared to the Scale. the Scale would follow your instinct. just thinking about cornering would make it steer into corners. it also feels like glued to your a$$ at the same time like glued to the ground which let you flow through winding singletrack with ease. this winterbike now feels like an old men. somewhat stiff and sluggish. i will install a slightly shorter stem since the tob tube is a bit longer. and i am also thinking about a full rigid fork with fat tires. during winter i used to ride full rigid. i'll order such a fork these days.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

*No rimstrip on ZTR*

It's not necessary to run the rimstrip on the NoTubes ZTR rims, all you need is the valve and the yellow tape. Total weight is about 10g pr rim. This makes the ZTR Olympic/355/Arch/Flow setup a very lightweight tubeless alternative.

Ole.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Ole said:


> It's not necessary to run the rimstrip on the NoTubes ZTR rims, all you need is the valve and the yellow tape. Total weight is about 10g pr rim. This makes the ZTR Olympic/355/Arch/Flow setup a very lightweight tubeless alternative.
> 
> Ole.


but it has no ceramic and that's what i'm talking about.

lightest ceramic setup with tubeless is the SLR.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

nino said:


> but it has no ceramic and that's what i'm talking about.
> 
> lightest ceramic setup with tubeless is the SLR.


I know, but it will make the disc brake setup 50g lighter... 

Ole.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Ole said:


> I know, but it will make the disc brake setup 50g lighter...
> 
> Ole.


no way:nono:


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*going all rigid again...*

ok, as always in the winter season i swapped the suspension fork for a full rigid. i like to excersise and want to keep my senses alive....i really like to ride all rigid.

in the meantime it seems i either adjusted to the "grabbiness" of the brakes or they became a bit less agressive. anyway - i also bought a Bleeding kit and spent quite some time to do a bleeding job to my rear brake. i always told you it felt much softer and had a changing brakepoint all the time...definite signs of trapped air. ok, it seems i got it right now. we will see soon. i'll go for a ride within half an hour. it's all foggy outside with temperatures of just 2 degrees celcius (just above the freezing point) brrr.

my bike is still muddy from last nights night-ride. trails are pretty muddy over here right now and this will only become worse...

by the way - the fork is a cheapo taiwan thing and weighed 778g uncut(265mm steerer). cut to 170mm it now weighs exactly 740g. the bike getting very close to a 7 in front of the comma....


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Nino, have you experienced brake fading?


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## ryan123 (Jun 15, 2004)

How do you find those forks? Have you got a link to them, I am looking at some Pace rc31 for my SS, but was wondering what cheaper options are around... Thanks


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Batas said:


> Nino, have you experienced brake fading?


no fading, just air in the system. it seems i did a good job yesterday with the bleeding. the brakes finally perform as they should. i have to admit it's cool to ride in the mud knowing your brakes are always the same. i never had a problem before and i don't think i'm any faster but it's something you have not to think about anymore.

BUT since it was all foggy today the brakes made a squeeling sound initially. it seems the humid air was just enough to form a wet layer on the rotors. i already wonder what they sound like when things get really wet...they must be really loud:skep:

@ryan123:
there is no link. i have also no idea who made this fork. it rides great. it is definitely more forgiving than an aluminium fork. i felt really comfortable riding full rigid today. i'm almost as fast as before. my friends still way behind in the DH sections... 
the fork is texactly the same lenght than the Spinner (same lenght than a 80mm suspension fork). it doesn't change the geometry at all.


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## AndrewTO (Mar 30, 2005)

nino said:


> ok, as always in the winter season i swapped the suspension fork for a full rigid. i like to excersise and want to keep my senses alive....i really like to ride all rigid.
> 
> by the way - the fork is a cheapo taiwan thing and weighed 778g uncut(265mm steerer). cut to 170mm it now weighs exactly 740g. the bike getting very close to a 7 in front of the comma....


Oh, come one now! Details, details! Price, location, a2c.

Looks exactly like the Bontrager (???) fork.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*carbon-fork*



AndrewTO said:


> Oh, come one now! Details, details! Price, location, a2c.
> 
> Looks exactly like the Bontrager (???) fork.


as i already said, i have no idea what make it is. it's some taiwanese made fork that was listed in the catalogue right next to the aluminium fork i planned to order from "Price Bikes" over here in Switzerland. it's available as Disc/V-brake or Disc-only.

i found a link to a similar looking (read : the same) fork for 239 euro
http://www.mountainbike.be/algemeen...l&id=1164284889&archive=&start_from=&ucat=13&

and it also seems Bontrager has the exact same fork for 300$:
http://www.bontrager.com/Mountain/Components/Forks/22057.php

i sure paid less than 239 euro/ 300$ though


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

*Ritchey WCS Mountain*

There's also the full carbon Ritchey WCS / Token forks that weigh about 470 g. They are supposed to preserve the geometry of an 80 mm suspension fork.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> There's also the full carbon Ritchey WCS / Token forks that weigh about 470 g. They are supposed to preserve the geometry of an 80 mm suspension fork.


you bet i know them....se picture i took at Eurobike!

but at roughly 500$ they are not even close to what i was willing to spend for my winterbike


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Nice work, Nino!*

But yeah, a 185mm front rotor is prolly way overkill. IIRC, you weight in around 150 lbs or therebouts. I'm nearly 200 lbs (that's what, 5000 Kilos?) and use a 160mm front rotor on my Mono Minis, and it has plenty of power and I rarely overheat it. I only have overheat problems when I'm riding really steep stuff and going way faster than I know I should with bad brake technique. I'd rather have the modulation than the sheer stopping power.


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

$500:nono: I know a place that sells them for $350. Someone like yourself should be able to get one for around $250 or less.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> $500:nono: I know a place that sells them for $350. Someone like yourself should be able to get one for around $250 or less.


i know where to get them that low
but anyway - what do you think i paid for my fork above?


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

nino said:


> i know where to get them that low
> but anyway - what do you think i paid for my fork above?


Well $350 for the Ritchey WCS is basically the going rate ...nothing to jump at.

Your fork, I wouldn't have paid more than $80 for it. That's a cheapo fork.

This might be your winterbike but you are obviously very keen in keeping it light. I'm surprised you didn't go for the extra 300 g of weight savings for about $150 more. You spend way more on weight savings for your Scott.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

eurorider said:


> Well $350 for the Ritchey WCS is basically the going rate ...nothing to jump at.
> 
> Your fork, I wouldn't have paid more than $80 for it. That's a cheapo fork.
> 
> This might be your winterbike but you are obviously very keen in keeping it light. I'm surprised you didn't go for the extra 300 g of weight savings for about $150 more. You spend way more on weight savings for your Scott.


correct - but one is the Scale, this however is my 0815 winterbike.


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## eurorider (Feb 15, 2004)

You're letting us down nino:nonod:


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Nino, look at here my new rigid fork...  
740 gr. with canti-studs...


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

scapin said:


> Nino, look at here my new rigid fork...
> 740 gr. with canti-studs...


i know there are lighter forks! but that was not my intention here. i simply wanted a CHEAP rigid fork which is what i got.

i just did another super-sweet ride today. weather over here in Switzerlandf is incredible for december. we had over 10 degrees celsius and blue sky. usually at this time in the year we have already 30cm of powder snow....the trails were real tacky, not the mud i had the last couple of days. i had a real blast with the rigid bike and i really, really like it A LOT!!! i am almost as fast as with the suspension fork. it's just under braking that you have to take more care but otherwise i have no problems to go as fast as before. it really seems the carbon smoothes out the biggest hits. i expected the ride to be MUCH stiffer, much more unforgiving but to my surprise it is perfect. even with the skinny 1.8" Schwalbe Nobby Nics at 2,5 bar. ahhh, i really like it.


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## perioeci (Jan 23, 2006)

Nino: did you weigh the ultimates, including hardware and original rotors? If so, what were the weights fo each one? Thanks...


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Avid Juicy Ultimate...*



perioeci said:


> Nino: did you weigh the ultimates, including hardware and original rotors? If so, what were the weights fo each one? Thanks...


Avid Juicy Ultimate weights (out of the box, uncut hoses):

FRONT (185mm rotor): 413g (includes 35g for the adapter. if you have a postmount fork you won't need it)

REAR (160mm rotor): 389g (again includes 35g for the adapter)

my tuned Ultimates weigh:
front 180mm: 368g (including 35g for the adapter)
rear 160mm: 306g (including 35g for the adapter)

tuning consists of:
Nino's lightweight 180mm rotor 115g (- 29g)
Nino's lightweight 160mm rotor 92g (- 17g)
4 Titanium bolts M6x18, standard is steel (attaching the brakes to the frame and fork) (-9g)
4 aluminium bolts at the lever clamp, standard is titanium (- 6g)

total saved: 61g

i will change to a 160mm rotor in the front as well. right now there's too agressive power on hand. so my setup will weigh ca. 640g total (both adapters included, so it would be 570g without them).

shown below:
stock 185mm front
stock 160mm rear
adapter
tuned 160mm front
tuned 160mm rear


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

nino on discs,

what's your opinion of the Formula Puro Oro levers and calipers? Wouldn't they be lighter stock?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Slobberdoggy said:


> nino on discs,
> 
> what's your opinion of the Formula Puro Oro levers and calipers? Wouldn't they be lighter stock?


i didn't go for the lightest but for the one i can get cheapest and which has monster power. this is what i got here.

both Magura and Formula have many quality issues. at least in the past.


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

nino said:


> Ole said:
> 
> 
> > nino said:
> ...


Way rft:

According to Mavic the CM SLR are 1420g a pair. My Olympics on Tune King/Kong are 1360g a pair.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

chrism said:


> Way rft:
> 
> According to Mavic the CM SLR are 1420g a pair. My Olympics on Tune King/Kong are 1360g a pair.


i don't care.really.

discs are way heavier.

i have them right now. brakepower in the dry is very,very good. not so in the wet and that's where i expected them to be way superior. so i'm off for a pad change also on discs. i didn't think i'd have to mess aeround with discs. everyone said discs were far superior, no power loss in the wet, far superior modulation etcetc. so far i have to say the modulation is good but not worlds better than my V's. i'm not going any faster because of them and that's what finally counts. dry brakepower is very good but with new ceramic rims (mine are 5 years old...) my V's are again on the same level. financially the Discs are way more (if we are talking about a lightweight setup). ahh - and i could be heard up to the moon because my discs were squeeling in the wet like mad. i never had squeeling V's...when i clean my bike i used to spray it with some light oil right after the wash...well - now i have to take care, covering the rotors etc...did i mention the bleeding job i did right after installation of the brandnew set? i spent quite some time there as well and again spent some money for the bleeding kit of the Avids. bleeding the brakes took more than it takes me to replace cables on my v-brakes

besides the high-end discbrake i already invested in:
lighter rotors
titanium bolts
alloy bolts
...soon different pads

don't get me wrong - i'm still happy with the discs. but i don't want to hear people tell me discs are troublefree again. we'll talk again after the winter about my disc-feelings...last winter on my V's all i had to do was replacing the worn pads. a 30 second job each front and rear.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

nino said:


> i don't care.really.
> 
> discs are way heavier.
> 
> ...


Yeah discs need some work to qork trouble free, but it can be reached.... Avid hydros have had squealing issues from the start, but give great power, so that's a "sacrifice" you do when you use "the cheapest ones you can get"  ... discs can require some attention setting up, but if you do it right (and some luck  ) you will only need to do pad changes afterwards


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

nino said:


> when i clean my bike i used to spray it with some light oil right after the wash...well - now i have to take care, covering the rotors etc...


So did you used to spray the rims? :eekster:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> i have them right now. brakepower in the dry is very,very good. not so in the wet and that's where i expected them to be way superior. so i'm off for a pad change also on discs. i didn't think i'd have to mess aeround with discs. everyone said discs were far superior, no power loss in the wet, far superior modulation etcetc.


Well toothings, if your brakes are worse then your v-brakes, then your rotors suck, your pads suck, the Ultimate brakes suck or all of the following.

I can ride underwater for a good bit, then through mud thick enough to covers the rotos too goop and STILL brakes better wet than ant cermic rim/pad combo!

There is a lot to be desired possibly with your rotors. I use stock Magura's and no issues in the wet.

Also you keep saying this and it gets old. -

Disc brakes are NOT *way *heavier. Yes they are heavier all inall with wheels, but weights are within 3/4 of a pound. :madman:

Disc are much more expensive. FALSE, some are. But in gemeral they are more money than v-brakes. Avid Ultimtaes and juciy 7's are cheaper wholsale wise then Extralite UltraBrakes, that's a fact jack. But again they cost more. :nono:

Disc more to set-up and maintain? Sure in some cases. I have not touched my Maugra brakes yet. Only rebled tham after cutting the lines. Yes getting the rotors not too rub took more time than a v-brake set up, but that was it. All I do is wash with a little water and sometinmes mild soap. V-brakes and cermiacs as well, must be cleaned as well. Not a delicate as rotors, but again must be cleaned. Cermaic rims with a coating from pads and dirt will not stop well.

Again like someone said, Avid Hydros usally aslways squeal like Ned Beatty in Deliverance .

Look, you love your v's and that fine. Others love disc brakes. BOTH have their pros and cons. BUT more and more folks are fiding disc brakes to be thier choice, even with a small weight penalty. For MOST riders on disc brakes, a 1lb or less weight gain, stopping and performance outweights the lighter issues with v-brakes.

Just like light weight semi slick tires. If you can't brakes or keep traction, how the hell are you going to win a race, let alone not kill yourself. :skep: :eekster:


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*no problem...*



chrism said:


> So did you used to spray the rims? :eekster:


i didn't take care when spraying my bike. you sure don't point at the rims on purpose but i never took care and used to spray all over the frame , also the rear chainstays and derailleurs, where i also sprayed parts of the rims for sure. it never affected performance though.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*i hope so...*



crisillo said:


> Yeah discs need some work to qork trouble free, but it can be reached.... Avid hydros have had squealing issues from the start, but give great power, so that's a "sacrifice" you do when you use "the cheapest ones you can get"  ... discs can require some attention setting up, but if you do it right (and some luck  ) you will only need to do pad changes afterwards


that's what i hope from now on. as said i'm really happy with dry power. it's just that the wet power isn't nearly as much. and Gio, don't tell me it's just MY setup that doesn't work! please have a look at an older test of discs where they tested dry (in red) and wet power (in blue). several brakes have lower readings. some more,some less. that's why i am looking for a different pad compound. swissstop pads are the reference over here in europe. i will try those now.

looking at this test i see the magura marta has indeed the same readings wet and dry. that's how it's supposed to be!

all i was saying is that i think my v's offer about the same power in the wet. i might be wrong. i will have to ride on v's again back to back now but the disc-performance it the wet was definitely much weaker than in the dry. looking at the Avid Single Digit's numbers (a cheapo 0815 set on regular Aluminium rims) i can definitely tell you that my ceramic setup would have numbers MUCH,much higher than those. in the dry and especially in the wet!!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Nino, It might be your set up with what you are using. Did you try the stock rotor? I don't care what that test says (even thopugh I do enjoy when you post them) I am giving you my personal feild experience with disc brakes. I have tired a few and all were similar for me: XTR, HOPE and Magura.

Maybe those rotors you have need a different pads. I LOVE Swiss Stop pads. I used thier gree pads on my ceramic v-brakes a while back (I got them from you.) and they were far better than kool-stop gree that were also very well.
Power with the arch rival was bacially same as my discs, but the disc require lees hand force and better in the wet at least for me. I did not know that SS was making disc pads now. I just got some New SS Campy- Black pads and they BLOW AWAY the Kool-Stop Salmon pads which for me are the standard in braking wet or dry for raod brakes. The SS-Black work very well in the wet as well.

Look maybe new pads will work. TRY the stock rotor. Try another brand rotor as well. You might find the issue. You also might find Avid Hydros are just a bit marginal for you. I LOVE thier mechs, but the hydros are ok.

You will be amazed one how much a rotor can make a differnce in braking between brads and styles. I tird Stan's rotors 2 weeks ago. They were fine until the wet came. Not bad, but the Magura rotors stopped much better in the wet.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Swisstop Pads...*



DIRT BOY said:


> Nino, It might be your set up with what you are using. Did you try the stock rotor? I don't care what that test says (even thopugh I do enjoy when you post them) I am giving you my personal feild experience with disc brakes. I have tired a few and all were similar for me: XTR, HOPE and Magura.
> 
> Maybe those rotors you have need a different pads. I LOVE Swiss Stop pads. I used thier gree pads on my ceramic v-brakes a while back (I got them from you.) and they were far better than kool-stop gree that were also very well.
> Power with the arch rival was bacially same as my discs, but the disc require lees hand force and better in the wet at least for me. I did not know that SS was making disc pads now. I just got some New SS Campy- Black pads and they BLOW AWAY the Kool-Stop Salmon pads which for me are the standard in braking wet or dry for raod brakes. The SS-Black work very well in the wet as well.
> ...


well - several tests prove the Swisstop disc pads once again blow away the competition! by far! only small german manufacturer "Trickstuff" had similar performance. Kool Stop,EBC,....and all stock pads were really much weaker performing both wet and dry.

http://www.swissstop.ch/index.php?content=products&topcategoryID=3&lang=en

http://trickstuff.de/eng/prod_belaege.htm


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

*interesting*

interesting...

hey nino, when will we have a vuelta disk brakes available in the market?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

such a arse with nothing to say or contribute to this forum. :madmax: :nono: :ciappa: ut: :incazzato: rft:


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## CKS (May 26, 2004)

*What about a 140mm rear?*

Nino, my friends at SRAM are all running a 140mm rear rotor to save weight, with no complaints.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

CKS said:


> Nino, my friends at SRAM are all running a 140mm rear rotor to save weight, with no complaints.


i'm using V's to save even more weight without any complaints

if i'm already adding a ton to my bike by using discs i at least ask for superb stopping power. the smaller the rotor the less power and the more they overheat. no wonder more and more discbrakes come with lager rotors than in the past. my 160mm rotor is as light as a 140 so no improvement weight wise anyway.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

*Totally O/T*

So nino you DO get up really early in the morning! :eekster: 

Or you are sleep walking.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

Slobberdoggy said:


> So nino you DO get up really early in the morning! :eekster:
> 
> Or you are sleep walking.


not so early. it was about 6:30 in the morning. i was having a dream about a wonderful descent on V's when the squeeling of a discbrake took me out of my dreams...


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

LOL, okay, okay! 

I have a better idea of the time change now. 

Maybe you want to try the stock disks sometime and compare them to the ones you are trying to sell us on now.  Too bad you can't test a variety of disks for us. Carbon-Ti


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## tranquilo (Nov 22, 2006)

*what about stan's rotors?*

being that this is a thread about light rotors and all, no one has mentioned stan's rotors, which are advertised at 57g ea. has anyone tried these and can they report on them?


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## CKS (May 26, 2004)

*Stans AL rotors*

I have some of Stan's 1st generation non-coated AL rotors that weigh ~50g ea and require organic brake pads. They're light, but they don't stop all that well... I thought I'd use them only for epic races with lots of climbing, but after using them for a few, I'm over it. I'd be interested in trying the newer style coated rotors, but compared to the weight of a 140mm rear, they're not lighter enough. Steel is real...

In case anyone's wondering, you simply use a regular front caliper adapter in the rear.

Nino, I hear you, but since the front brake bears SO much more load, it's logical that if you only need a 160mm front, you could use a 140mm rear. If your 160mm rotor is light, wouldn't a 140mm rotor of the same design be super light? Or is there so little surface material that you need it to be 160mm?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*more power...*



CKS said:


> I have some of Stan's 1st generation non-coated AL rotors that weigh ~50g ea and require organic brake pads. They're light, but they don't stop all that well... I thought I'd use them only for epic races with lots of climbing, but after using them for a few, I'm over it. I'd be interested in trying the newer style coated rotors, but compared to the weight of a 140mm rear, they're not lighter enough. Steel is real...
> 
> In case anyone's wondering, you simply use a regular front caliper adapter in the rear.
> 
> Nino, I hear you, but since the front brake bears SO much more load, it's logical that if you only need a 160mm front, you could use a 140mm rear. If your 160mm rotor is light, wouldn't a 140mm rotor of the same design be super light? Or is there so little surface material that you need it to be 160mm?


as mentioned above,
i'm adding a ton of weight to my bike so at least there has to be some benefit. i want MORE power not equal than what i had with V's. otherwise all the disc-sh!t will go back where it belongs. in a box collecting dust. i don't see the point to put heavy discs and downtune them to save weight while decreasing performance at the same time??? if they aren't any better performing than my V-setup why adding a pound over them anyway?

that's why i use the lightest steel rotors that still offer superb power but also help in reducing weight.

by the way - german MountainBike magazine just did a big comparison test of 22 different Discbrakes. and the winner for crosscountry use is: Avid Juicy Ultimate!!!
only 16g heavier than the Magura Marta SL but with better modulation and more power.

once again very weak: XTR.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

nino said:


> once again very weak: XTR.


Yeah, but the test only with the stock pads, which can change the behaviour of the brake greatly..... I just read that review myself too... and yeah.. Shimanos usually need better pads/bigger rotors to be as powerful.... but the modulation is awesome


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> by the way - german MountainBike magazine just did a big comparison test of 22 different Discbrakes. and the winner for crosscountry use is: Avid Juicy Ultimate!!!
> only 16g heavier than the Magura Marta SL but with better modulation and more power.


The German Bike can have thier Ultimates brakes. The Maguras are better overall in modualtion, power and they don't squeal like a pig. The one advantage they do have is pad adjustment and alinement is vey nice with avid.


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## Stradissimo (Jan 28, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> The German Bike can have thier Ultimates brakes. The Maguras are better overall in modualtion, power and they don't squeal like a pig. The one advantage they do have is pad adjustment and alinement is vey nice with avid.


I'm calling "BS" on this one. There is no way you've got enough experience on Juicy Ultimates, especially living in Florida, to make such a claim.

I've been on Martas for several years, riding in real mountains where 1500 foot descents are common. I've found them to be adequate. They're much, much better than V brakes. But, I hate the way the engagement point moves around when they heat up.

I want better brakes. I'm looking at the Ultimates and Puros. Nino's information is good, and appreciated by me.

If, by some chance, you've actually done any 1000 foot or greater descents on Ultimates, please post it up. When, where and exactly how did the Ultimates fail you. And no, experience with Juicy 7s or 5s doesn't count.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Stradissimo said:


> I'm calling "BS" on this one. There is no way you've got enough experience on Juicy Ultimates, especially living in Florida, to make such a claim.
> 
> I've been on Martas for several years, riding in real mountains where 1500 foot descents are common. I've found them to be adequate. They're much, much better than V brakes. But, I hate the way the engagement point moves around when they heat up.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have NO time on these in the mountains as Florida is flat. BUT I have had 3 weeks on them wih wet weather, and XC conditions. I gave my experience with them in my condtions. Did I ever mention heating up issues or what not? I don't like the feel of the brakes more than my Magura's.

Also those rotors squeaked like hell! I sold them after 3 weeks. I love the look of them, but so far Magura Marta SL feel better. I have no time on the Puros, butr they like stunning!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*flat land vs descents...*



DIRT BOY said:


> Yes, I have NO time on these in the mountains as Florida is flat. BUT I have had 3 weeks on them wih wet weather, and XC conditions. I gave my experience with them in my condtions. Did I ever mention heating up issues or what not? I don't like the feel of the brakes more than my Magura's.
> 
> Also those rotors squeaked like hell! I sold them after 3 weeks. I love the look of them, but so far Magura Marta SL feel better. I have no time on the Puros, butr they like stunning!


DirtBoy,
i think the biggest difference is that Florida is all flat. if you never do any long and fast descents you will never have your discs fade or get on the edge. over here we have lots of mountains and that's where you need not only nice brakes to look at but some who perform. the Magura is a great crosscountry disc but known to have it's weakness when things get hot. at least with the smaller rotors.

the Juicy Ultimate is a new brake. it seems Avid has done their homework and that's what impressed also the testers. better feel, more power, better adjustability, better modulation than the Marta....i can not comment on the marta since i rode it just very briefly on some others bikes and liked it as well but i already told you about how impressive the power on the Ultimates is.


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## Stradissimo (Jan 28, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> Yes, I have NO time on these in the mountains as Florida is flat. BUT I have had 3 weeks on them wih wet weather, and XC conditions. I gave my experience with them in my condtions. Did I ever mention heating up issues or what not? I don't like the feel of the brakes more than my Magura's.
> 
> Also those rotors squeaked like hell! I sold them after 3 weeks. I love the look of them, but so far Magura Marta SL feel better. I have no time on the Puros, butr they like stunning!


OK, I stand corrected. Three weeks is probably enough time to form a valid opinion.

Let me ask you this: In what way was the modulation worse on the Ultimates? Too touchy, not touchy enough, inconsistent.

The consistency issue is important to me because I find the Martas to not be very consistent. I'll note that my Martas are almost 5 years old, I've gone through several sets of pads, 3 sets of rotors (stock, sl, and Stans) and many bleeds, and the heat issues are always the same. The hotter they are the further out the engagement point moves. The power stays the same, but I'm a one finger braker, and I can't get much leverage on the lever when it's way out away from the bar. Perhaps new Martas are better.

Oh, I just fixed a terrible squealing issue with my Martas. It turned out to be contaminated pads. I know how annoying squealing brakes are, so if Avid hasn't taken care of it with the Ultimates, that's good information to have out there.

Heck, I just want better brakes than Martas without a weight penalty, is that so wrong.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Stradissimo said:


> OK, I stand corrected. Three weeks is probably enough time to form a valid opinion.
> Let me ask you this: In what way was the modulation worse on the Ultimates? Too touchy, not touchy enough, inconsistent.


 Hard to pin it down. My Marta's just felt better when squezzing the levers. Hard to say. The Ultimates are not bad at all. Maybe I have too much time on the Marta's and just prefer them. I do like the lever o the Ultimates better. They just seemed smoother when applying the brakes.

My SL's always feel the same. I even store my bike hanging for the rear wheels and so far no issues. I guess my main issues is the squeeling. Also maybe I need more time on the Ultimates. The Marat SL I have just feel right. I do wish the lever had som more shape to it.



> Heck, I just want better brakes than Martas without a weight penalty, is that so wrong.


No, not all!!! Look, everyone has opinions on this parts and that part. Magura, Avid and Hope sell a ton brakes. They all have the pro and cons. You need to find which one you prefer.

No I do prefer Avids alining system, pad contact adjustment, split clamp as well and the 140mm rear option.

I prefer Mineral oil on the Magura over DOT 4 or 5.1 on Avid.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

nino said:


> DirtBoy,
> i think the biggest difference is that Florida is all flat. if you never do any long and fast decsents you will never have your discs fade or get on the edge. over here we have lots of mountains and that's where you need not only nice brakes to look at but some who perform. ther Magura is a great crosscountry disc but known to have it's weakness when things get hot. at least with the smaller rotors.


Yes, I can not comments on heat issues. I will let you know this spring how they do in Moab, UT .

Right now, I prefer the Magura brakes. Maybe I need more time on the Avids. I just don't like squealing brakes. The Avids are way easier to adjust. Using shims on the Magura's stink!

But you know, I have had v-brakes almost not stop me on some decents were I have ridden in the mountains.


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## B_H (Oct 29, 2006)

nino said:


> by the way - german MountainBike magazine just did a big comparison test of 22 different Discbrakes. and the winner for crosscountry use is: Avid Juicy Ultimate!!!
> only 16g heavier than the Magura Marta SL but with better modulation and more power.
> 
> once again very weak: XTR.


Did they test Formula Oro Puros in the same test?


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

B_H said:


> Did they test Formula Oro Puros in the same test?


Yes they did... the Oro Puro only lost one star (out five) in modulation to the Ultimates, so they are just as good (for me at least)


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## CKS (May 26, 2004)

Stradissimo said:


> I'm calling "BS" on this one. There is no way you've got enough experience on Juicy Ultimates, especially living in Florida, to make such a claim.
> 
> I've been on Martas for several years, riding in real mountains where 1500 foot descents are common. I've found them to be adequate. They're much, much better than V brakes. But, I hate the way the engagement point moves around when they heat up.
> 
> ...


Do Juicy Carbons count? I assume not, but here I go anyway. I use them on my Anthem, and have experience where I live in Tahoe with 1000+' descents and at Xterra World Championships in Maui, with close, but no sustained pitch of 1000'. They work awesome with no noise and no loss of power.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Juicy Carbons...*



CKS said:


> Do Juicy Carbons count? I assume not, but here I go anyway. I use them on my Anthem, and have experience where I live in Tahoe with 1000+' descents and at Xterra World Championships in Maui, with close, but no sustained pitch of 1000'. They work awesome with no noise and no loss of power.


well - i just built a nice bike for a friend of mine a couple of months ago. he got a Juicy Carbon also with 180/160 rotors. i was never convinced with this brake. l first thought it was the brakes needed some brake-in which they really did but even now they are not comparing in power to the Ultimates i have. that was another discbrake i had a smile thinking my V's had better power... i don't know a whole lot about discs and never cared enough about them but from what the acual tests says Avid has really done their homework and improved a couple of things quite a bit to make it the clear winner this year.


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## Stradissimo (Jan 28, 2004)

CKS said:


> Do Juicy Carbons count? I assume not, but here I go anyway. I use them on my Anthem, and have experience where I live in Tahoe with 1000+' descents and at Xterra World Championships in Maui, with close, but no sustained pitch of 1000'. They work awesome with no noise and no loss of power.


Since the Carbons have a different master cylinder and caliper than the Ultimates it is kind of like judging Martas based on the Louise system, which, in the brief experience I've had on them, are great brakes. If the Ultimates are as good, without a weight penalty over the Martas then I'll be all over them.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

I'll jump on the bandwagon here for a minute or two only:

I've done a lot of work with Magura Martas and I've seen a lot of trouble with them, especially in the wet and on long descents (1500' + to say the least). Yeah, the Avids can . squeal, but that's the least of your worries. A good friend of mine ended up re-bleeding the suckers thrice in a stage race....Sticky pistons, sudden pressure drops, what have you. I gave them one final try and ended up giving her a set op Hope Mono Minis.

My llimited experiences with Jucies is that they're a bit grabby, but very solid and reliable. It's the only brake I'd consider over my Minis at this point.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*tried my V's again...*

well - i just tried my V's again and i have to say i still like them A LOT. power is really on the same level. as mentioned already i still like the modulation of my V's better. DANG!! i was really impressed with the discs over the last couple of weeks but it seems you just accustom. my V's cables are ultraslick. i have definitely less drag in the lever than the new hydros!

i will definitely try my Scale tomorrow once again out on the trails. at the moment it's pretty nice out there so i will have a good comparison. at least right in front of the house i like the V's better. honestly. i can do 1 finger wheelies better than on the discs. maybe it's because the bike is lighter but the V's definitely are on the same level powerwise. that's on 5 year old ceramic rims...

can't wait to have those new mavic SLRs with brandnew ceramic coating:thumbsup:

i'll report on the comparison tomorrow. can't wait...


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## ferny (Sep 18, 2005)

Great bike Nino!! so...your Scale???


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

nino said:


> well - i just tried my V's again and i have to say i still like them A LOT. power is really on the same level. as mentioned already i still like the modulation of my V's better. DANG!! i was really impressed with the discs over the last couple of weeks but it seems you just accustom. my V's cables are ultraslick. i have definitely less drag in the lever than the new hydros!
> 
> i will definitely try my Scale tomorrow once again out on the trails. at the moment it's pretty nice out there so i will have a good comparison. at least right in front of the house i like the V's better. honestly. i can do 1 finger wheelies better than on the discs. maybe it's because the bike is lighter but the V's definitely are on the same level powerwise. that's on 5 year old ceramic rims...
> 
> ...


 Nino, do you some kind of wobble on your V's setup when braking hard, specially on the wet? That's the most annoying thing about my brakes...


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## carbon_runner (Dec 22, 2006)

*Scott scale 34.9 Extralite seatpost shim slipping????*

Has anyone had problems with Extralites 34.9 to 31.6 seat post shim slipping? I just got back from a ride and my seat post kept slipping on my Scott scale. I have tightened it to specs but? I just wondered if their is a solution. I lost over a 100 grams replacing my oem seat post.

Any help would be appreciated.

CR


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## singletracktourist (Jul 27, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Yes, I can not comments on heat issues. I will let you know this spring how they do in Moab, UT .
> 
> Right now, I prefer the Magura brakes. Maybe I need more time on the Avids. I just don't like squealing brakes. The Avids are way easier to adjust. Using shims on the Magura's stink!
> 
> But you know, I have had v-brakes almost not stop me on some decents were I have ridden in the mountains.


woops. Nevermind.


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