# Creatine



## mattbyke (Jan 14, 2015)

For the 4 month off season , I've been using creatine , whey protien, L-Carnitine, and Glutamine . Kind of a body building stack. The goal was to increase power and faster recovery. Combined with 3 days of Nordic sking and 3 days of cycling. Mixed with weight work . This has paid off in spades. For single speed racing. I've lost all the body fat I could and kept lean mass. My weight never moved. 
Im just curious if others use a targeted supplement program in their training?


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Creatine causes testicular atrophy.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.


Tugging it more often should keep those testis in tip top shape.


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## mattbyke (Jan 14, 2015)

I've not noticed that , in 15 yrs of use. Though I do cycle creatine , and don't use it year round .


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## cerebroside (Jun 25, 2011)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.


You're thinking of steroids. Creatine is not known to have any serious side effects, and is actually UCI and IOC legal.


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## Collins (Feb 23, 2013)

Ya'll be goofin, n'at.

Someone posted this awhile back, and I've found it helpful:
Group A : AIS : Australian Sports Commission

After a hard 3+ hour ride, ~30g protein and ~60g simple carbs definitely aids/speeds recovery. Plenty of rigorous studies to back this up.

Also, I've used a similar "stack" that you note, + taurine at night to boost recovery. Yes, it has appeared to help increase my sprint times, and my overall aerobic capacity has increased, which are what I'm after. It's really the TIME that I've put into riding that's made the difference... and the rest has been what it is: a supplement.

Anecdotally, creatine hasn't been shown to increase performance for endurance athletes. There are several good research reviews online. Here's one:
Creatine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com


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## rockhop (Mar 22, 2006)

Creatine is only for short, explosive movements, as in a bench press or squat. The premise is that you got stronger from the heavier workouts (in the gym) enabled through creatine intake, but not simply from the creatine itself. As for cardio or bike rides, meh. Regardless be sure to drink plenty of liquids when on it.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Creatine is not only for short explosive movements. It helps with anaerobic capacity, recovery, muscle size, water retention, lessens the need/work for your kidney and liver to convert amino acids, improves bone healing, glucose tolerance, and even brain function. Especially for vegetarians. It is also one of the most widely used, tested and studied supplements out there.
Mattbyke is onto some good stuff, has clearly done some research, and dialing into your diet, supplements, and routine to fit your goals is what it's all about, and that's why he's seeing success.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

I had great personal results with creatine. I am 45 and it triggered elevated blood pressure. I stopped it. I take protein supplementation and try to keep within a high protein diet. 

As an aside, I stopped taking energy bars and gels. Am going with a moderate amount of fats and protein as energy sources. It takes longer, but last longer too, and, I feel, reduces instances of inflammation.


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## jcm01 (Oct 23, 2011)

Article posted today:

Creatine supplementation and endurance exercise aren't typically linked in the same sentence. We think of creatine in terms of strength, speed, and power-and for good reason. There are hundreds of published research studies supporting creatine's use as an effective ergogenic aid for improving muscular strength and size. While many will argue creatine has no place in an endurance athlete's supplement stack, we beg to differ.

If you can look past the direct effects of creatine-and increase in phosphocreatine stores, rapid increase in ATP production, and improved anaerobic performance-you'll see that creatine supplementation can offer indirect benefits to runners, cyclists, and triathletes, and help take their training to the next level.

Interval workouts at lactate threshold, speed work, and hill training are common-and often dreaded-techniques used to improve running efficiency and performance times. The higher the quality of these sessions, the faster you'll be crossing the finish line.

Creatine supplementation has been shown to decrease recovery time during repeated intervals, and increase power output at lactate threshold.1,2 Improvements in speed, power, and running economy during your training sessions translates to better race-day performance!

Recommended Dose: 3-5 grams per day. Skip over the traditional loading phase often used with creatine supplementation. The initial weight gain, which is caused by an increase in total body water, may slow down performance.

The Top 7 Supplements To Boost Endurance Performance - Bodybuilding.com


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

The article is referenced by studies mostly about sprinting. 
As far as normal endurance during long rides, I would probably do better without the 8 pounds of water weight gain creatine usually gives me.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.


Source?

I've been on creatine for years and my s-count is perfectly normal. On the high side. Not that anecdotes matter.


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## unrooted (Jul 31, 2007)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.


Will it cause testicular shrinkage too? I'm sick of sitting on em.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

unrooted said:


> Will it cause testicular shrinkage too? I'm sick of sitting on em.


This former body builder says no ill effects...


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.





rockhop said:


> Creatine is only for short, explosive movements, as in a bench press or squat. The premise is that you got stronger from the heavier workouts (in the gym) enabled through creatine intake, but not simply from the creatine itself. As for cardio or bike rides, meh. Regardless be sure to drink plenty of liquids when on it.





bing! said:


> I had great personal results with creatine. I am 45 and it triggered elevated blood pressure. I stopped it. I take protein supplementation and try to keep within a high protein diet.
> 
> As an aside, I stopped taking energy bars and gels. Am going with a moderate amount of fats and protein as energy sources. It takes longer, but last longer too, and, I feel, reduces instances of inflammation.


It's amazing the bull **** people spout about creatine.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Creatine made my calves seriously cramp up ^^ 

-------------------------------------
Opinions are like A-holes... everybody 
has one & they're usually full of...??


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

dave54 said:


> Creatine causes testicular atrophy.





bing! said:


> I had great personal results with creatine. I am 45 and it triggered elevated blood pressure. I stopped it. I take protein supplementation and try to keep within a high protein diet.
> 
> As an aside, I stopped taking energy bars and gels. Am going with a moderate amount of fats and protein as energy sources. It takes longer, but last longer too, and, I feel, reduces instances of inflammation.





Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> It's amazing the bull **** people spout about creatine.


it's not bull ****. What's bs is trying to make people look stupid when you don't know what you're talking about.

There is some research that suggests it causes some people testicular issues, including atrophy. Dave has some informative posts and takes the time to try and inform people of things that may not be mainstream, or may not have reached the bro science universities yet. We don't always agree but because of his knowledge i'd guess he works in the nutrition field in some capacity.

Bing's post, and experience, is spot on. There is clear evidence that creatine can cause hi blood pressure for some.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Can you post a link to the research on creatine and testicular impacts?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=creatine testicular atrophy

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=creatine testicles

Maybe Dave will chime in. He usually has some good scoop on nutrition linkys.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

So, that link yields only this, which I've seen before:

Creatine Linked to Testicular Cancer

Which references this study:
http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v112/n7/full/bjc201526a.html

Which is login only, the most detailed summary I could find is here:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/843199

Sooooo , couple things on this: 
1) Its an case-control observational study, not a cohort study or fully controlled experiment, meaning they select groups of people who have a condition (those are the 'cases', in this case testicular cancer, TC) and compare to a 'control' group (who does not have cancer), and then measure the variable, in this case usage of creatine and other supplements.

2) Problem is, that can lead to selection bias: By selecting people who were already known to have TC, they may be including people who, for example, use anabolic steroids. There is no mention in the article of whether they screened the participants to ask if they took anabolic steroids, and even if they did, hard to estimate the whether the answers they got would be accurate because there is reason not to be truthful about that. There's no way to know.

Keep in mind, that, since we know there is a VERY STRONG correlation between anabolic steroids and TC, this means that if even a small subset of the 'cases' group takes anabolic steroids, that could be enough to skew the numbers in the protein/creatine study to show a seemingly STRONG correlation to TC. Make sense?

Anabolic steroids is just one example. Maybe weight lifters eat a lot more red meat and that's the cause. Maybe their thighs are huge and pinch their balls all the time, cutting circulation. There are a lot of possible factors.

3) In the study, they lump all muscle building supplements together: "including use of 30 different types of MBS powders or pills. The researchers used product labels to assess major ingredients, including creatine, protein, androstenedione." - the latter of which is actually now reclassified as an anabolic steroid. This is a very macro-grain measurement, especially with only 365 participants in the study.

Sooooooooooooo , there is correlation but definitely not enough evidence to prove a direct causal link as Dave asserts (if this the only study we are all citing), especially not for Creatine specifically. Observational studies like this are useful to indicate possible trends, which could be proven with much larger observational studies or better yet, controlled experiments, where two healthy groups are observed and one given creatine ONLY over a period of time, controlling for other factors like anabolic steroids, smoking, etc., and compared to a control.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow Proctor, that's quit a post to say it's a definite maybe. Dave mentioned, and thought you were asking about atrophy, which seems less questionable. Just threw in the other (cancer) link for shits and giggles. Which btw was just a google search of creatine testicles, where most of the results are cancer related. Anyway studies are just that, and time will tell us with more certainty. Some people smoke and eat whateva their whole life, and die in an accident at a ripe old age. While other eat right, never smoke, and die young from lung cancer. Just too many variables to know for sure, but over time a pattern can be seen. Creatine came on the seen in a big way around the 90s? so we're all guinea pigs in a way. 
Fwiw have noticed that mostly the only big proponents of creatine all the time/ full time have something to gain from the industry. So with that info, and the more widespread belief that it's safer to cycle on/off, that's what i'v always done. Plus i like to see what is real gains, what is retain-able, and what is because of the sup.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I guess all of the pro MTB and road racers I know are doing it wrong. None of them take creatine. Maybe they should learn something about endurance from the guys at BodyBuilding.com?


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Yeah, again, Le Duke, XC racing is just one part of the sport.

And, separately, could provide a source for your assertion that none of the XC racers take it? Or this is just folks you personally know? Which racers? You've had this conversation with each of them?

There are some studies which show a mixed bag for endurance athletes, like this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9662683

No affect on oxygen consumption and typical endurance measurements, but beneficial for interval performance (sprints and stuff). The weight gains may negate that over the course of an XC race, but it would probably be a net benefit for enduro and downhill.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

deleted


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

targnik said:


> Creatine made my calves seriously cramp up ^^
> 
> -------------------------------------
> Opinions are like A-holes... everybody
> has one & they're usually full of...??


My legs stayed sore while on creatine.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

You have to drink a lot of water when on creatine.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

walangkatapat said:


> My legs stayed sore while on creatine.


Creatine will never mask muscle-deficiency, or compensate for lacking muscle definition. If you need leg strength, you have to earn it.

Creatine and refined-versions will allow better control of muscle movements for workout routines; like Coffee it can be overused. And it can be misunderstood. Pretty sure it has the makings of a gateway type supplement when placed in a cheating-scenario context.
Remember Lance Armstrong getting mad at a Chair?


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Haint said:


> C
> Remember Lance Armstrong getting mad at a Chair?


I never saw this, what happened?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I started taking it about six months ago, as recommended on the label. It's made me a lot stronger in the gym.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Procter said:


> I never saw this, what happened?


It is still a mystery, although likely an Ego spiraling out. At a press conference Lance Armstrong squared himself against an opininated journalist and said the journalist of note is 'not worth the chair he is sitting on'. 
In a broader view, it illustrates Lance's blind ambition to cheat, lead others into his self destruction pathway, and also does question usage of the word 'Chair'.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't think this thread was intended to go in this direction. There are other threads for that.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I do t think this thread was intended to go in this direction. There are other threads for that.


Huh?



the-one1 said:


> Tugging it more often should keep those testis in tip top shape.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

The Lance direction. Before you know it the thread will be all about him.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok, I'll stop.


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

Haint said:


> Creatine will never mask muscle-deficiency, or compensate for lacking muscle definition. If you need leg strength, you have to earn it.
> 
> Creatine and refined-versions will allow better control of muscle movements for workout routines; like Coffee it can be overused. And it can be misunderstood. Pretty sure it has the makings of a gateway type supplement when placed in a cheating-scenario context.
> Remember Lance Armstrong getting mad at a Chair?


My legs never stayed sore like they were when I was taking creatine. Normally without creatine my legs would be sore for a day, may be two, but with creatine the soreness never went away. Not everyone will have the same results/effects of the same supplement.


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> You have to drink a lot of water when on creatine.


I drink a gallon of water a day.


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## toned (Jul 22, 2013)

most credible sources can be found here:
Creatine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

creatine is awesome, does not need to be cycled, has awesome benefits, and if you don't have any existing conditions, is safe to take


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

walangkatapat said:


> My legs never stayed sore like they were when I was taking creatine. Normally without creatine my legs would be sore for a day, may be two, but with creatine the soreness never went away. Not everyone will have the same results/effects of the same supplement.


Leg soreness indicates overworked/under-fueled muscles. Creatine will underscore lack of any symmetry in muscle groups. Whatever works for you though, I enjoy riding more than sculpting my body. Doing both equally, and efficiently is a challenge.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Never heard that one ^. Would guess with the sup you're pushing harder. Especially if it's loaded with caffeine and/or sugars. Plus a gallon a day might not be enough, creatine or not.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Never heard that one ^. Would guess with the sup you're pushing harder. Especially if it's loaded with caffeine and/or sugars. Plus a gallon a day might not be enough, creatine or not.


It will not replace muscle, it is a timed supplement which contributes to what is produced naturally in your body in larger scale. If introduced only in cardio type activities all muscle types in particular areas will be expecting to be worked-hard. It best-fits weight training since demand for oxygen, blood flow, and expansion of muscle during a 1-hour workout also match a Creatine cycle. To have Creatine be effective you must train hard and train properly.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Haint said:


> It will not replace muscle, it is a timed supplement which contributes to what is produced naturally in your body in larger scale. If introduced only in cardio type activities all muscle types in particular areas will be expecting to be worked-hard. It best-fits weight training since demand for oxygen, blood flow, and expansion of muscle during a 1-hour workout also match a Creatine cycle. To have Creatine be effective you must train hard and train properly.


Umm, what? lol.
To have any training be effective you should train hard and effective, creatine or not. no? Creatine can help you take it up a notch, setting a new standard for your norm. It's not just good for weight training. While i agree it's most effective for power/speed, it also helps with lactic threshold. When it comes to endurance/long efforts, it's not what creatine can do for you directly but indirectly. If short intense sprints or uphills are easier, you have more energy to burn for everything else. And better/quicker recovery helps too. 
Muscle don't expect to be trained harder if you sup creatine. In fact they don't expect anything at all. Althou some complain that it makes them jittery, especially if it's loaded with caffeine and sugars, as many are, and especially when they first start taking it. 
My .02


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Umm, what? lol.
> To have any training be effective you should train hard and effective, creatine or not. no? Creatine can help you take it up a notch, setting a new standard for your norm. It's not just good for weight training. While i agree it's most effective for power/speed, it also helps with lactic threshold. When it comes to endurance/long efforts, it's not what creatine can do for you directly but indirectly. If short intense sprints or uphills are easier, you have more energy to burn for everything else. And better/quicker recovery helps too.
> Althou some complain that it makes them jittery, especially if it's loaded with caffeine and sugars, as many are, and especially when they first start taking it.
> My .02


You're free to experiment with it however you feel. Using Creatine only for riding or cardio training is counterproductive. Sustained Cardio performance is a learned process of diet and utilizing your bodies own energy reserves, not loading up on a Supplement which is later converted to pee. 
For the tiny amount in use and depleted with exercise by the body naturally, using a supplement can allow your body to achieve a better metabolism and understand how using food as fuel as opposed to satisfaction of cravings maintains your metabolism. 
If a powerful rider is your goal, then targeting specific muscle groups is most important and promises consistent results. 'bulking up' does not promise results. 
What's condensed into creatine use by your own experience borders on Anabolic Steroids, where are trying to alter natural body process like controlled breathing.



theMeat said:


> Muscle don't expect to be trained harder if you sup creatine. In fact they don't expect anything at all.


It is clear you do not understand what it is being performed by creatine, but get your 'push' on by all means.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Haint said:


> You're free to experiment with it however you feel. Using Creatine only for riding or cardio training is counterproductive. Sustained Cardio performance is a learned process of diet and utilizing your bodies own energy reserves, not loading up on a Supplement which is later converted to pee.
> For the tiny amount in use and depleted with exercise by the body naturally, using a supplement can allow your body to achieve a better metabolism and understand how using food as fuel as opposed to satisfaction of cravings maintains your metabolism.
> If a powerful rider is your goal, then targeting specific muscle groups is most important and promises consistent results. 'bulking up' does not promise results.
> What's condensed into creatine use by your own experience borders on Anabolic Steroids, where are trying to alter natural body process like controlled breathing.
> ...


Never mentioned 'bulking up' or 'controlled breathing' or 'steroids', but i'm happy i have your permission to 'experiment' with one of the most widely used and tested supplements out there for fitness gains. I'm also an avid rider who does at least 1 300 mile bike/hiking trip a year, who's aware of what diet can and can't do for long days on the saddle. Also spend time at the gym and have been into fitness for at least 15 years, and have cycled onto creatine many times so know 'clearly' what creatine can and can't do for me too. It has been established that creatine is not very useful at improving cardio performance directly. Thought that was pretty common knowledge. So is targeting muscles, you might be onto something there. Except i'm not sure what you're trying to say because on one hand you say it borders on being like a steroid, and on the other say it just makes more pee. Get my 'push on' ?


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Eric - if you're in here, we're all goin' to Marty's after the movie.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Haint said:


> Eric - if you're in here, we're all goin' to Marty's after the movie.


A creatine snorting party?


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> A creatine snorting party?


Totally thought this idiotic-humor, you got my rep right? Searched teh internetz... no. just, no.

I need to get out more.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Haint said:


> Totally thought this idiotic-humor, you got my rep right? Searched teh internetz... no. just, no.
> 
> I need to get out more.


I'll bet someone out there has tried it. + Rep back at you!


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Snorting it really improves your one rep nostril max, but also puts on a lot of water weight around the bridge


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah, snorting creatine, sponging for rep, all bad


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