# Its not square its not round



## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

And it is just back from the anodizers


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## Whitedog1 (Feb 3, 2009)

Troutie that's aweasome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 


I like it!!


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

Trout,

Nice touch to design a smiley face into the inside of your light body! Now, don't deny it... :thumbsup:


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## OldMTBfreak (Apr 8, 2006)

Yep, that's a nice smiley. That Trout is always a scream!:thumbsup: Also, I'm pumped about the 7up. I think it may be my next bike light. Maybe a twin 7up next.


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## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

That is seriously SWEET, was gonna use the f-word but you know what I mean totally awesome..

Can I ask, in production yet, if not why not and how much.. don't just tease us give us some info.. pretty please..!..AWESOME.. defo the best looking light I have seen to date..


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## piesoup (Feb 9, 2009)

That is tastey! So refreshing to see a new shape! Your lights made me buy a lathe, now you're tempting me to buy a cnc mill! If only I wasn't saving up for a wedding....


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

ortelius said:


> Trout,
> 
> Nice touch to design a smiley face into the inside of your light body! Now, don't deny it... :thumbsup:


Sadly I have to come clean on this one I gave the 7 up optic and leds to paul my friendly cnc machine shop owner and as I was real busy with the Liberators I just said do some thing with those and then he showed me the results a couple of weeks ago we did a bit of tweaking and these are the protos that evolved so my input has been just a small one .

It all fits together real sweet and he has done an ace job Including the smiley inside .

so yes he will be running some off the cncs real soon .


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## il2mb (Jan 27, 2005)

Wow. Very nice. The bar is getting set pretty high on the DIY lights. Guess I'm going to sell my lights and buy a mill/lathe. That just looks like too much fun.

Great job.

This could end up being more costly than my bike addiction.


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## mjzraz (Oct 8, 2005)

Troutie - That is a fantastic looking light!!


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

For the top quality of that build I think it deserves a better switch, not that the one you use isn't good, but this one would look even better! Flat with the surface, metallic color, illuminated, and very low height (14mm with terminals) that will fit any housing with size restrictions.
This is my housing made by yetibetty. T didn't bought the LED's yet. the hole is for a small lead Trailtech connector.

available here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=441-2980#header

Anyone used this switch before or am I the first one?


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Very nice...keep us posted if they are available for purchase..


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Sergio .
that is a beauty , the Housing and the switch Yeti puts in the effort for for a great final product . Just had a look at the link and it is a pricey switch but you are right it would look the part on the INSINeRator :smilewinkgrin:

You can be first for me never seen that one before


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## bumphumper (Jan 8, 2009)

I like that, the gold looks really blingtastic and the curves are doing strange things to me.

Cant be any good though, as it doesnt have an unobtainium lens..

If I didnt have too many lights already, I would buy one,...in each colour!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> Very nice...keep us posted if they are available for purchase..


Thanks Goldigger . they will be soon


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## lsocoee (Oct 29, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> Sergio .
> that is a beauty , the Housing and the switch Yeti puts in the effort for for a great final product . Just had a look at the link and it is a pricey switch but you are right it would look the part on the INSINeRator :smilewinkgrin:
> 
> You can be first for me never seen that one before


Do you have a link the switch you like to use for the 7-UP? I go to start looking and I come up with 1000's of switch options.


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## AlisterG (Nov 14, 2008)

Tsk Tsk Bumphumper, easy!


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Are you happy with the throw of the Khatod optic or is it working from a brute force approach?


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## e39-540i (Mar 14, 2009)

Wow!!! Very nice Troutie! 

What switch are you using on it?


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## 1up (Feb 8, 2009)

What connector are you using?


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

This is art.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kan3 said:


> Are you happy with the throw of the Khatod optic or is it working from a brute force approach?


Hi Kan .

Yes I am very happy with the throw and spill though it is more of a floody throw and yes you may be right on the brute force it does have a darkish ring round the edge which is more noticable on the wall tests but it has not bothered me when riding

I did have the idea to put 3 XPEs in the mix on the board but am nervous about heating 3 off and reflowing 3 xpes on but as I have had a little accident and damaged the domes on 2 leds I might give it a try .

E39
the switch is the apem IP67 one which is popular on here 
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=3731656









But may splash the $£ for one like Sergio s to try

Tony-n

the connector is a standard 2.5 dc socket which makes it compatible with the lumicycle batteries if wired centre negative .
but pretty much any connector will do the job


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> I did have the idea to put 3 XPEs in the mix on the board but am nervous about heating 3 off and reflowing 3 xpes on but as I have had a little accident and damaged the domes on 2 leds I might give it a try .


Personally, I haven't had any problems doing reflow between xpe and xpg boards for testing but I use a standup digital heatgun and it's rather quick and painless.

I do like that idea and it sounds like a great mix. It does hurt quantity discounts on the xp-g though. Could just be something I pay attention too since I plan on order so many at a time.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kan3 said:


> Personally, I haven't had any problems doing reflow between xpe and xpg boards for testing but I use a standup digital heatgun and it's rather quick and painless.
> 
> I do like that idea and it sounds like a great mix. It does hurt quantity discounts on the xp-g though. Could just be something since I order so many at a time.


OK you may have talked me into giving it a go I do have a good quality specialist heat gun for welding vynil flooring which I can set to maintain any temp up to around 600degrees C it is not digital though but I can check it with a MM thermal probe .

What temp should I set the gun to and would it be possible to just remove the 3 leds and replace with 3 Xpes taken from stars would there be enough residual solder on both parts to make this work .

and if I may be cheeky and ask what you do with all the leds you order


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> OK you may have talked me into giving it a go I do have a good quality specialist heat gun for welding vynil flooring which I can set to maintain any temp up to around 600degrees C it is not digital though but I can check it with a MM thermal probe.


I set mine to 650F and it takes about 20secs for the gun to heat up and get the solder to flow on a standard 20mm star. Doing that larger pcb will obviously be different but I haven't had any problems with that temp so far.



> What temp should I set the gun to and would it be possible to just remove the 3 leds and replace with 3 Xpes taken from stars would there be enough residual solder on both parts to make this work.


I haven't had any issues needing to add solder paste if I've changed out or removed leds off a finished star. I've changed out the led on 1 star I've gotten from cutters 5 times without needing any paste, so you should be ok here.



> and if I may be cheeky and ask what you do with all the leds you order


I edited my post but you quoted me before I got it in. =]
I'm doing a light design for a dirt bike and will probably do them in batches of 10-20 at the start...assuming they sell. So, I plan on taking advantage of the 101+ xp-g discount they have. I didn't know if you supplied the leds in your designs but it definitely adds up if you do. They don't offer a discount on xpe...so the xpe R2 ends up being more expensive than the xpg R5


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Thanks Kan 
Good luck on the dirt bike lights I have had some interest from the custom builders over here wanting something different for their Trikes and stuff.

OK you have convinced me todays project is to swap 3 XPGs off a 7up and replace them with 3 XPEs removed from a triple star .

any tips would be welcome .

one worry wont the airflow from the heat gun move the little leds . and if heating the big 7 up then the solder under all the leds is going to melt .

I can see me in tears later today might set up the video camera then I can watch the disaster later .


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## notaknob (Apr 6, 2004)

*Shama Lama Ding Dong*



troutie-mtb said:


> one worry wont the airflow from the heat gun move the little leds . and if heating the big 7 up then the solder under all the leds is going to melt .
> 
> I can see me in tears later today might set up the video camera then I can watch the disaster later .


You should have at least 3-4 beers to steady your nerves before you try any surgical moves like that.

Tequila helps, lots.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> Thanks Kan
> 
> any tips would be welcome .
> 
> one worry wont the airflow from the heat gun move the little leds . and if heating the big 7 up then the solder under all the leds is going to melt .


Mine has high and low air flow settings but even on high there isn't enough air flow to slide the leds off their marks. Generally what I do so warm up the gun and then hold the pcb with needle nose pliers in one hand. With the other hand I take another pair of needle nose pliers and gently grab onto one of the led and apply some upward pressure. When it releases I pull the others off and let the pcb cool down. To place new ones on I just align them and heat it up and they will generally snap into place.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Can't you just hold a lighter under a single LED on the 7up rather than heat the whole lot?
I can see all 7 sliding off if the whole pcb is heated.

I want to cut a trace and re route it but havn't had the guts.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

yetibetty said:


> Can't you just hold a lighter under a single LED on the 7up rather than heat the whole lot?
> I can see all 7 sliding off if the whole pcb is heated.
> 
> I want to cut a trace and re route it but havn't had the guts.


I've done 3 up xp-g mr11 pcb without problems.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

kan3 said:


> I've done 3 up xp-g mr11 pcb without problems.


You have more guts than me. I've done a few singles though.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

yetibetty said:


> Can't you just hold a lighter under a single LED on the 7up rather than heat the whole lot?
> I can see all 7 sliding off if the whole pcb is heated.
> 
> I want to cut a trace and re route it but havn't had the guts.


Those were my thoughts too the whole board will heat anyways using the lighter method 
I think .

dont worry about cutting the traces Yeti I accidently did that whilst trying to remove a board from the suction of the thermal paste and just scraped it back down to the copper and repaired it with solder .
I did think about cutting a coupls of traces and wiring one up as a 4 and a 3 and using 2 cheapo drivers

Cheers Bruce I will need to wait for the tremors from last nights beers to go away then I will have a go


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

yetibetty said:


> You have more guts than me. I've done a few singles though.


I needed to move the xpe R2 to one of my 3up pcb. Probably wouldn't have done it if cutters didn't take 2+ weeks to get me stuff. I'm glad I did though as I realized it isn't that bad.


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## yetibetty (Dec 24, 2007)

Trout,mine got stuck with suction too. I washed the inside of the housing with washing up liquid to remove swarf then put the MCPCB in just to check the fit and it stuck like glue to the bubbles had to use the hoover with a hose to get it out.

Domes are still on too.


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

I have confidence in your abilities


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Holy smokes....that is a beauty Mr T :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

*Its done and it works*

Thanks Kan3 the little nudges worked

I need the tequilla now its over .

I had to make a little hot plate to sit on my heat gun as I envisaged 7 xpgs flying around the garage lost forever.
here is the setup I even put a little hole for the probe so I could test how hot it was getting and once I found the right setting on the gun it stayed at 215 degrees C perfectly .










tested it and it is working nicely :thumbsup:

just uploading a shaky video so will put it up soon


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Well here it is not very exciting I am afraid and if I can do it you all can


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I had to laugh on the 3rd led... i was waiting to see just a dome being picked up with the pliars...lol

I've not seen an xp-g or xp-e yet so now i can see how small they really are. which is probably why the xr-e has the built on metal reflector around the base of the dome and the xp-g's dont.
So i think this is why the xp-g is more floody...


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> I had to laugh on the 3rd led... i was waiting to see just a dome being picked up with the pliars...lol
> 
> I've not seen an xp-g or xp-e yet so now i can see how small they really are. which is probably why the xr-e has the built on metal reflector around the base of the dome and the xp-g's dont.
> So i think this is why the xp-g is more floody...


LoL that was actually the forth led as one did end up lost in the dust never to be seen again.


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## kadikater (Oct 26, 2008)

heiliger Johannes!


geil!


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## piesoup (Feb 9, 2009)

So I take it there isn't any drama with mixing Gs and Es when driven with the same driver. 
With what I've read about the G, I plan to out some Es in my big 24 led light. I suppose as long as each parallel string is the same there won't be a problem??
So now not only do I have to buy a cnc mill, but also a fancy heat gun! What are you doing to me Chris?!


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> Thanks Kan3 the little nudges worked
> 
> I need the tequilla now its over .
> 
> ...


You're pro now


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

piesoup said:


> So now not only do I have to buy a cnc mill, but also a fancy heat gun! What are you doing to me Chris?!


Haha
Any heat gun will work as long as you can adjust the temp to a usable range. Mine was only $50 locally while his was obviously much nicer.


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## Rich_SC (Oct 10, 2009)

So is your thinking that the 3 XPE's are gonna have more throw with the 7up optic? Should be an interesting experiment.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kan3 said:


> Haha
> Any heat gun will work as long as you can adjust the temp to a usable range. Mine was only $50 locally while his was obviously much nicer.


I Had to buy mine for a hospital job to weld the flooring and the one I had used for 15 years died on the job it cost me £375 just to finish that one contract . and has sat in the garage for 9 months untill today .but at least it is super acurate once dialed in .

I am not scared of little leds no more now just off out to compare the modded one to a standard one beam pics soon


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Rich_SC said:


> So is your thinking that the 3 XPE's are gonna have more throw with the 7up optic? Should be an interesting experiment.


Any optic I've tried on the xpe and xpg, the xpe has always had a tighter more intense hotspot. I'm assuming he has had the same results.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

https://w199.photobucket.com/pbwidget.swf?pbwurl=https://w199.photobucket.com/albums/aa46/amticoman/7 UP XPG/26676cdd.pbw

now to let the jury decide the verdict


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I think 7 xpg's just edges slightly brighter...but there is not a lot in it.


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

It doesn't seem to me it was worth the effort.

(But i'm glad you did it and shared it with us!  )


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Watch the slide show from the about 8 feet away... the difference is much clearer...
https://w199.photobucket.com/pbwidget.swf?pbwurl=https://w199.photobucket.com/albums/aa46/amticoman/7 UP XPG/26676cdd.pbw


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

Can't tell a difference from the picture. Could you visually?


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

ortelius said:


> It doesn't seem to me it was worth the effort.
> 
> (But i'm glad you did it and shared it with us!  )


It was certainly worth the effort as I had knocked 2 domes and they were split in half so needed replacing .

hard to tell from the pics I will know better if it ever stops raining here .


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kan3 said:


> Can't tell a difference from the picture. Could you visually?


Most definatly could see a difference this morning out walking the dog and the 3 x 4 had a much tighter beam as could be seen in the slight mist in the air .

as to whether it is better / worse that was difficult and would be a personal preference thing as they both lit up the way ahead to well beyond 100 metres

I had the modded one on a headstrap as it may be going to a new owner in Finland for dogsledding .










now these pics do show a difference to my eyes 
first one is the unmoddified 
and the second is with 3 XPEs in the mix

I can see a definate brighter centre to the light in the modded one even though it should have less lumens

both lights are @ 1000ma 
and I knocked a second off the camera setting to 5 @ f4


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## lsocoee (Oct 29, 2009)

Isn't that the same switch that luminous uses on his lights?

Great work, you keep this up and I think you will succesfully discourage many of the budding home light builders. *kicks rocks*


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## kan3 (Nov 11, 2009)

And why is that


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## smudgemtbuk (Jul 13, 2008)

Its for Santa for when he's delivering right  

Nice work MrT :thumbsup:


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## lsocoee (Oct 29, 2009)

kan3 said:


> And why is that


who me? It's because I know my lights will look like a robot left a steamy pile on my handlebars.


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## piesoup (Feb 9, 2009)

lsocoee said:


> who me? It's because I know my lights will look like a robot left a steamy pile on my handlebars.


Haha!! I've given up trying to compete with Trout!! I reckon our lights will still be much brighter than any shop bought ones!! Keep at it!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

lsocoee said:


> Great work, you keep this up and I think you will succesfully discourage many of the budding home light builders. *kicks rocks*


Thanks but I like to think the stuff I try and do will encourage diyer s and you could also get one of the cases fill it up and bingo a diy light that looks and performs better than most shop boughts

Admittedly enrolling a cnc machinist is a bit of a cheat and not really in the diy spirit but I still tinker away in the shed trying out different stuff


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

Trout- Your lights rock! Please keep up the good work. The machinist is turning out outstanding pieces of art. We appreciate everything that you, and the other guys, who have pushed the envelope have done for the forum. 

Cheers


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## HuffyPuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

Trout, did you try to approximate the reflow profile on the Cree datasheet? Seems like it would be pretty simple to do with the heatgun and your temp sensor. I'm not suggesting that there is a problem with any other method. I have used a jet lighter to remove them and had no ill effects but when I am doing something else with SMD stuff I use a hotplate and try to stay close to the profile.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

.40AET 
Thanks I will only give up when the ideas dry up :thumbsup:

Huffy 
I did have a look and figured with the little hotplate once i had the gun setup and the temps sorted with a few test runs starting from just warm it did have a ramp up to the solder melting and then a ramp down may not have followed the official data sheet profile 
and my garage is not the driest place to store leds .

But well chuffed to have tried and succeded in repairing an expensive led setup .

here is a word of warning based on me damageing the leds in the first place .

What happened was I wanted to remove a 7up and optic from a case it was only on thermal paste and the suction was huge 
but what damaged the 2 led domes was removing the optic it was held tightly by the 3 legs and I levered on one side then the other trying to be carefull but as it released the optic bases are so close to the domes that only a tiny tilt of the optic cracked 2 domes 
as they seem to be made from hard (silicon  ) and it crumbles easily .see pic










So take extra care with handleing them as the dome is easy to crush .


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## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

Pricing and output to feed my hunger please.. and availability... please, pretty please..


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

EFMax said:


> Pricing and output to feed my hunger please.. and availability... please, pretty please..


will be available after christmas in a variety of colours


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

troutie-mtb said:


> will be available after christmas in a variety of colours


Damn, they are pretty enough to hang on the tree


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## OldMTBfreak (Apr 8, 2006)

My tree NEEDS one, badly. lol


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## willibutz (Dec 14, 2009)

Great work!

3 questions left:
did you glue the maxflex to the housing? I mean i can see where the thermal pad is going to be, but nothing more.

have you tried the other optics (medium/wide) from cutter/Kathod?

How flexible is the mounting plate in using a Cateye- or Lupine-holder (both use a M4-screw).

Regards
Willi


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## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> will be available after christmas in a variety of colours


You have my attention Sir..
I am a light junkie, I have a good setup already I just want better and more.. is there any chance that this can be done to work on my existing 7.2v or 11.1v system.. cheers..


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

willibutz said:


> Great work!
> 
> 3 questions left:
> did you glue the maxflex to the housing? I mean i can see where the thermal pad is going to be, but nothing more.
> ...


Yes that is the only way to fix the maxflex to the post with AA epoxy










No I have not tried the medium and wide optics I think the 6 degree is wide enoung when used with the XPG unless you wanted a mega flood for a light .

There is a mount being machined for it and the base will have 2 x M3 tapped holes for that and also an M5 in the centre for a lumicycle mount so I guess you could open the cateye or lupine mount hole to take the m5 bolt .

EFMax
Your existing batteries are not suitable to use it with a maxflex and the 7 leds all in series .

But I am thinking of putting 9 leds in so I can do a Hi beam and dipped beam just need to experiment with it .










possibly going to use 3 of these drivers







to drive each row of 3 leds switched seperatly so with row 1 on and eliptical optics that becomes dipped beam .

the other rows will be a combination of medium and narrow optics for a tuneable main beam .

with the drivers being basic there will only be the one level and no heat management but with each row being switchable that is the 3 levels


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## AlisterG (Nov 14, 2008)

Too much is just never enough...


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## EFMax (Aug 20, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> EFMax
> Your existing batteries are not suitable to use it with a maxflex and the 7 leds all in series .
> 
> But I am thinking of putting 9 leds in so I can do a Hi beam and dipped beam just need to experiment with it .


What sort of voltage we talking cos I have about 40x 18650 that I can reconfigure to suit, just will need to get a different charger to handle higher voltages..


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## ortelius (Dec 6, 2007)

4 x 18650 in series (14.8V nominal) will do. 5 x 18650 (18.5V nominal) would be even better, but it depends if you have suitable charger for this configuration.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

EFMax said:


> What sort of voltage we talking cos I have about *40x 18650* that I can reconfigure to suit, just will need to get a different charger to handle higher voltages..


That might be overkill


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

AlisterG said:


> Too much is just never enough...


Probably wont happen and yes you are right more than enough light with 7 leds 

Cheers Ortelius You beat me to it


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Feb 23, 2008)

Hey Mr Trout, i was looking at those drivers recently, now he has them with 2 levels , Hi/Lo :thumbsup:

5W-970mA-Power-LED-Driver-7-24V-DC-with-Dim-mode



> The driver offers a half-power mode - simply connect the 'A' control input to the 'PWR-' (negative supply) input via a switch to reduce the output power to approximately 50%. Leave the 'A' input unconnected for full output.These units can be rated up to 30V input at extra cost - please ask for details. I am shortly to release a 48V rated driver similar to this unit. I also offer 1W and 3W drivers with a 4 to 8V DC operating range for a single power LED.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

*At Last*

After what seems like an eternity I have at last got some of the cases back from the anodizers 


















I just built one up using XPE R2s so will get a comparison beam shot versus one with XPGs on board tonight now our arctic conditions have gone .

I have used one of the Maxflexs with the trouty trio mode and the seven up makes a tasty light even on low it is rideable


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Very nice! Are any of these available for sale for a DIY build?


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

kwarwick said:


> Very nice! Are any of these available for sale for a DIY build?


Hope you wanted black??


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Goldigger said:


> Hope you wanted black??


Aha I am collecting some Titanium silver ones tomorrow:thumbsup:



Kwarwick said:


> Very nice! Are any of these available for sale for a DIY build?


Yes they will be


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> Aha I am collecting some Titanium silver ones tomorrow:thumbsup:
> 
> Yes they will be


We need to talk!  I've got my order all ready with Cutter for the 7up LEDs, just needed a sweet host and this definitely fits the bill!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

The promised beamshot 
XPE R2 Versus XPG R4

all powered at 1000 ma in the max flex current table.
with the trio mode hi is max med is level 3 and low is level 1

XPG low








XPE Low









XPG MED








XPE MED









XPG HI








XPE HI









Now these pics have supprised me a tad and I look forward to the feedback on here


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## Jesseri (Dec 15, 2009)

Trout, are you using the same khatod optic with both type of leds?. It seems like it works way better with the XPE emitters.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Jesseri said:


> Trout, are you using the same khatod optic with both type of leds?. It seems like it works way better with the XPE emitters.


Yes it is the 6 degree optic for both lights , I have been wanting to do the comparison since before christmas but have been waiting for the housings to be finished .

Cutters do a mixed 7 up with 4 xpgs and 3 xpes for the best of both worlds you get the throw of the xpes and the extra lumens and flood from the xpgs .


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

XPE seems to be a clear winner...


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## TTGV (Oct 31, 2008)

The optic seems to be unfocused with the xp-g : the beam shot looks like a donut of light, around the center point of the throw. And then , with less light, the xp-e looks better due to the scene's contrast. Is that your feeling ?


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## tracerprix (Dec 26, 2009)

Wow this light is amazing!

Mike


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

TTGV said:


> The optic seems to be unfocused with the xp-g : the beam shot looks like a donut of light, around the center point of the throw. And then , with less light, the xp-e looks better due to the scene's contrast. Is that your feeling ?


I was supprised by the less lumens of the XPE out performing the XPG 
there is a ring around the spot but not really noticeable on the trails and in real life the low is brighter than the picture and the High is darker than the picture 
and also there is quite a difference in tint between the 2 lights with the XPEs being a bit warmer too
The trio mode for the maxflex suits a light of this power perfectly and I can see them flying off George`s shelf :thumbsup:

I will try for an ariel quarry shot tonight of both lights


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## messias (Oct 11, 2009)

troutie-mtb said:


> I was supprised by the less lumens of the XPE out performing the XPG ...


It may not only be the optics not working well with the XP-G. There is a guy over at the german bike community that has access to a light testing lab and he is testing lights and emitters with scientific equipment every now and then. His findings dampened our initial XP-G excitement quite a bit.
An XP-G R4 he measured came in at 247 lumens at 1A.
An XR-E R2 he measured under similar conditions came in at 233 lumens at 1A.
Since XR-E and XP-E are rated the same I would assume the the XP-E's output is also just slightly lower than the XP-G's.

When I saw those numbers at first I thought they must have messed up the measurements, surely Cree's datasheet would not be off by such a wide margin, but they retested another XP-G R4 and came up with similar results. Also the experiences posted by people that swapped emitters from a high-binned XP-E/XR-E to XP-G and also your beamshots support the impression that the XP-G is just not the Über-LED (yet?) that it was supposed to be.

Anyway, here are some of his results:


> 100mA 40°C 2,88V 30 lm 106 lm/W
> 
> 350mA 40°C 3,11V 105 lm 96 lm/W
> 
> ...


Taken from here. Full thread here. (In german obviously)

Mat


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## AlisterG (Nov 14, 2008)

I think this is due to XPE being a smaller, more 'light intense' die - lumens per mm2. The XPG's light intensity is considerably less as the die is more than twice the size, lending itself to floodier light. I think this gives Cree plenty of headroom with the XPG die to get brighter as time goes on. So the early ones are not really a big leap forward. As already mentioned, the 7up optic was designed around the XPE and that isn't limited to its physical dimensions. 

Cree won't be letting all of their new goodies out of the bag in one go. I seem to remember reading one of their press releases claiming a test die hitting 186lm/watt in neutral tint, 4500K.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

The G die is 40% larger than the E so the beam is spread over an area twice as large(1.4^2) so it will be half as bright. This is offset by the three bin difference... so the G ends up with a beam about 60% as bright as the E.

So Troutie 1A XPG(350lm) should be about as bright as 700mA XPE(210lm) if you want to take two more pics.

For the MTB crowd where you're not running really narrow beams it isn't a problem as you just choose a narrower optic and you get an equivalent beam.

BUT FOR US ROADIES ON SKINNY TYRES WHO NEED TO SPOT A PEBBLE AT 30M IT SUCKS.

GIVE ME MY R5 XPEs :incazzato:

JTR1962 tested XPG R5 at 350lm and XPE R2 at 270. His tests generally show Cree binning is accurate.


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## messias (Oct 11, 2009)

I have seen JTR1962's test and I am really impressed by his work. Also his measurements of the XP-G R5 putting out 350lm at 1A played a big role in my initial excitement about the XP-G.
However, the figures I have quoted above were measured using a professional calibrated integrating sphere. And while JTR1962's test setup is impressive for a DIY-setup and I don't want to take anything away from his great work, it still is a DIY-setup and I tend to side with the more scientific measurement here.
On another note, looking at Lupine - which is anything but known for understating their lumen ratings - advertising the 7up XP-G Betty at "only" 1750lm kinda supports the other guys figures. Lupine typically measures a single emitter at optimal conditions using an integrating sphere and then just multiplies this figure by the number of emitters to get their light rating. Which means that in this case they measured the XP-G R5 at only 250lm at 1A as well.

But in any case the 7up puts out a hell of a lot of light and I actually like that it is a bit floodier with the XP-G, I am only waiting for a neutral white XP-G to appear to get on my own 7up build.

Mat


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## TTGV (Oct 31, 2008)

It seems that the "MC-E effect" is here again : as MC-E, the XP-G die is larger; then the optics must be adapted to that fact. Who waited so for a long time for big IRIS , to have a nice beamshot ?


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## AlisterG (Nov 14, 2008)

I can't imagine that Lupine run the LED's in Betty or Wilma lights at 1 amp, I expect they run them at no more than 700mA max. This was a common trick amongst bike light mfrs, to claim emitter lumen output at the LED mfr's quoted max recommended current but actually run them at less amps, not to mention reflector/optic and temperature losses.

The quick test is to work out the battery capacity and quoted runtime and work back to find operating current. Clearly a deception but in reality there is not a significant difference in brightness between 700mA & 1A as the LED efficiency drops.

Lupine's previous incarnation of the Betty with Seoul P4's claimed 1500lm but probably gave closer to 1100 real lumem at best. If they are claiming 1750lm at 700mA from R5's that is plausible. As the light buying public are a bit more savvy (in no small part to this and other forums), those light mfr's who claimed ridiculously high lumen outputs are now hostage to their old marketing blurb.


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## TTGV (Oct 31, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> ... and in real life the low is brighter than the picture and the High is darker than the picture ...


 That's why I talked about the scene's contrast: eyes are "more impressed" with higher contrast. I downloaded your two Hi set pictures, and swtching from one to the other let me say that the flux (ratio lumens/enlightened surface) of light is the same : Each enlightened area is as bright as in the other picture, but with a different distribution. I think that xp-e give it on the center spot and xp-g give it on the larger surrounding ring (bigger lumens on a bigger surface). With xp-e, the sharped edges give big contrast.


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## AlisterG (Nov 14, 2008)

Get the humble pie ready for me, got that wrong about Lupine's max current.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Ti Silver ones have arrived


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## Whitedog1 (Feb 3, 2009)

troutie have you already completet the 9x light prototype (which was postet some time ago in this thread)


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Whitedog1 said:


> troutie have you already completet the 9x light prototype (which was postet some time ago in this thread)


No it was just a fantasy idea and I used the leds in the liberators . 
the seven leds are plenty good enough


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## Jesseri (Dec 15, 2009)

Trout, Could I have the diameters of switch and dc-connector holes and their counterbore diameter and depth as well.

ps. Did you get my email?.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Jesseri said:


> Trout, Could I have the diameters of switch and dc-connector holes and their counterbore diameter and depth as well.
> 
> ps. Did you get my email?.


Jesseri No email in my inbox any chance you can resend it .

I will have a measure


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