# Water bottle mounts



## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Hey guys, I need some help. I have a Vassago Jabberwocky in a size small. The frame fits me great but it only has on water bottle mount. I have since seen a couple of Jabbers on here in different threads that have a second mount on the seat tube and one even had a third on the bottom of the down tube. I asked one owner and he said they were installed by the prior owner of the bike but that they were a rivot style. I was wondering how difficult this is to do and where the hell can I find these rivot style mounts? They basically look just like a normal bottle mount but you can see the larger flange around the outer edge of it if you will. Is there a special tool that I will need to accomplish this? I know I'll have to drill a couple of holes in the frame and my only concern there is getting a drill in there to do it because of the tube angles.

Below is a picture of the ones on a down tube.


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## Manicmtbr (Jan 26, 2004)

Your LBS might be able to do it for you. I know that mine has the tools to do it. The mount is like a rivet, but it is a special tool. Would likely cost less for them to do it than to buy the tool. Team Dicky just did this on his new cross/road bike.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

While I have a couple of pretty good shops in my area, I really don't think that any of them have the experience or tools to do this sort of thing. I guess I will just have to start making some phone calls then.

Man, it really seems pretty simple to do but of course I don't want to screw it up either even though it is a fairly inexpensive frame.


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## gschwell (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm looking to do the same on my Nimble9. I found this site that has a pretty good method for making s tool. Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Using Riv-Nuts

There's also a video on YouTube of a guy doing an install. It looks pretty straightforward, I'm just lacking the right angle drill.


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

With a small size frame you might have to worry about the bottle rivets interfering with how far you can sink your seat tube. I could only assume Vassago didn't put the bottle bosses on for a reason (or not, maybe they were just cheep?). Maybe the ones that did it have a larger frame and it did not cause a problem. For those tight angles I use a right angle drill, HF sells a cheap pneumatic one that works ok...


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Who is HF?

Well, I am running a 400mm post on a small frame (I was between their frame sizes and opted to go with the smaller one). That being said, I won't have a problem with the post going down. My post currently makes it just past the seat tube/top tube intersection so I'm good there. 

The frames that I mentioned seeing were indeed all small frames. Vassago puts two mounts on the Med and up size frames but not on the small. They say it is so you can slip your arm thru the frame and carry the bike if need be. I do realize that it will make for a tight fit with a 20oz bottle but at least I would have something.

I did however pick up the seat post mounts that Specialized makes. Honestly, it looks stupid but I will use it for longer rides if I don't come up with other options besides a jersey pocket or runners waist belt set up.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

That's what I'm talking about! Aside from drilling a hole in my frame, the rest is pretty simple/straight forward! 

I actually have a right angle attachment for my drill. Normally I used this to drill holes in 2x4's when running wiring thru an existing wall but it should do the trick.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Awesome! Emailing a friend I used to work with that damn near has every tool known to man to see if he has an actual toool.


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## shoo (Nov 11, 2008)

HF = Harbour Freight.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

^^too funny! I was just checking out the other links and the thought came to me that I needed to swing by there to see if they have one and then an email popped up (thread update) with the info above. 

There is one right across the street from my daughters school so i will swing by there today or tomorrow and see what I can find.


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## xc_ryd3r (Mar 19, 2012)

The tool you are looking for to do the job is called a 'nutsert tool' - not overly expensive to buy if you cant find someone with one. Just remember to paint over any of the holes you drill, and add a bit of silicone to the nutsert before inserting to give a waterproof seal.

Nutsert:


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

I was thinking about having to do that. Silicon makes the most sense though I was thinking about some JB weld or something.


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

These guys have a cheap little tool. Rivet Nut Tools | Rivet Nut Tool | Rivet Gun | Rivet Tool | Rivet Pop Gun | Rivet Pneumatic Gun I have never used one. You can also install them with a skewer and a hub, but that is less than optimal.

Mcmaster also has some tools McMaster-Carr

The rivnuts themselves are cheap.

McMaster-Carr

I have always used the yellow zinc ones, not sure if the other options are better or worse.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Not what you asked, but have you thought of a frame bag? Keep your single bottle for short rides, and when you're going for a long ride you can move all the crap that would be in a pack/saddlebag/jersey pocket into the frame, and still have a ton of room for H2O.


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## gschwell (Mar 10, 2007)

I'd like to know what frame builders think about the risks of adding a water bottle mount using rivet nuts? Am I greatly increasing the chance of breaking my frame at these holes? I'd like to add them under the down tube, but this seems like a very high stress area (especially on a single speed). Any enlightened opinions?

Thanks,

Garth


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

gschwell said:


> I'd like to know what frame builders think about the risks of adding a water bottle mount using rivet nuts? Am I greatly increasing the chance of breaking my frame at these holes? I'd like to add them under the down tube, but this seems like a very high stress area (especially on a single speed). Any enlightened opinions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Garth


I'm curious too.

I've never used them and wouldn't use them on a bike that I could easily braze something on instead--even if it meant sending it out to powder coat/paint after the job was done, but then that opinion is based completely on my lack of having used rivet nuts. A $40 mapp gas torch, some 56%, some flux, and 10 minutes is all it really takes me in a pinch. If I have a couple of hours, add a six pack of beer, then I get to borrow an oxy-acetylene torch and do it "right" which simply put just means better control over the heat as mapp gas gets really hot really fast.

I would think that the rivet nut would cause a stress riser in that the tube and the rivet nut are not actually bonded to one another but I don't know for sure. I do know that when brazing, I tend to flux really well so that I get silver on both the inside and outside of the boss so as to really spread the stress through the area as best as possible. So yes, I do think that your risk of failure due to this sort of a modification increases but I don't know how much it will shorten the life.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

I had one of these pull out on my BMC frame. I would like to repair it, but both inserts are now larger and I'm afraid adding two new ones would further weaken the down tube and create more issues down the road. This had to be some very thin aluminum to have a water bottle pull out the factory rivets and take some of the frame with it. Has anyone ever seen this happen on a frame? I also had many dents all over this frame when I purchased it used. Makes me think these lighter BMC frames are not so durable and not meant to last. Since I bought it used, I don't think the company will stand behind it and replace it even though it looks to be beyond repair. Any thoughts on how I should present this to them and demand a new frame? I think I'm already SOL. :madman:


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Textron's Fastening Systems catalogue gives 'Water bottle to bicycle frame' as an assembly application for their Nutsert.

If it were my frame however, in steel, I would much rather braze on a waterbottle boss. The reason for this is that no stress riser will be created - a good insurance policy I feel. If a crack appears, you are in big trouble. If it is a butted tube frame in either steel or alloy, bottle mount points are usually found in the tube area with the thinnest wall thickness. 

Please keep that in mind. It is easy to drill a hole and fit, but you may regret it later.

Eric


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Fortunately, I am dealing with a steel frame and only looking to put a set of fasteners on the seat tube. I don't think this will generate as much stress as ones on a down tube


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Well, the new blind nut setter kit just arrived. I now have the tool and a bunch of blind rivots to play with. Well, actually I have already set two of them in my learning how to use the tool and figure out the settings on it and what not.

Now I need to find myself some angle bar so I can make a drill guide. I initially thought I would just use a nail punch to mark the hole and then just start with a smaller bit and work my way up to keep the drill from walking. But the angle bar guide looks like a good idea. I have no idea how I would drill the holes in it though and I certainly don't want to buy an 8' piece of bar when I only need like 6" of it. So I may have to come up with something else. Hell, I'll figure something out I'm sure.

I may just take a 2x4 and cut it to 1" thick and and use that as a guide. I can then just set a bottle cage on it to predrill the holes then line the piece of wood up on the frame and clamp it. That should be enough to keep the drill bit from walking yet thick enough to act as a guide. I just need to pick up some JB Weld on the way home and I should be able to do this tonight!


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

1SPD said:


> Well, the new blind nut setter kit just arrived. I now have the tool and a bunch of blind rivots to play with. Well, actually I have already set two of them in my learning how to use the tool and figure out the settings on it and what not.
> 
> Now I need to find myself some angle bar so I can make a drill guide. I initially thought I would just use a nail punch to mark the hole and then just start with a smaller bit and work my way up to keep the drill from walking. But the angle bar guide looks like a good idea. I have no idea how I would drill the holes in it though and I certainly don't want to buy an 8' piece of bar when I only need like 6" of it. So I may have to come up with something else. Hell, I'll figure something out I'm sure.
> 
> I may just take a 2x4 and cut it to 1" thick and and use that as a guide. I can then just set a bottle cage on it to predrill the holes then line the piece of wood up on the frame and clamp it. That should be enough to keep the drill bit from walking yet thick enough to act as a guide. I just need to pick up some JB Weld on the way home and I should be able to do this tonight!


This sounds like a workable solution. I'd start with the final sized drill bit as it is thin wall and a pilot drill doesn't usually work well from what I've found. The other interesting thing about working with thin metal and drill bits is that when it finally breaks through, if you aren't ready, it will drive through the hole. In other words, there is a small burr on either flute of the bit and it essentially allows the bit to thread through the frame which is a problem on a tube because the spinning drill hits the other side of the tube and you certainly don't want that to happen. So just be very careful. I like a lot of speed on the bit as I start drilling and hang on tight with both hands (when using a hand drill). Post some pictures and good luck.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. Honestly, aside from the big walking this was my other concern. The last thing I want aside from a hole that is too large is a dent on the other side of the tube! I will admit that I am a little nervous but I have done work on more expensive things (like my house) and survived. Honestly, it is pretty straight forward so I don't expect any problems. 

I think my only real concern is whether or not my drill will fit in such a tight space. Even with the right angle attachment you have to accoutn for the drill bit itself and things could be pretty tight. If it is too tight then i will have to look into a right angle drill type attachment for my air compressor as shown in the video which will delay the project (gotta have money to buy one or start checking with some friends to see who has one).


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

A stubby burr will also drill / and or open up a hole in a pinch without the grabbing experienced when using a larger drill bit in very thin metal. Plasma cutter also works very well if you have used it a lot and are cmfotable with it. The single fluted step drills work well on sheet metal / thin tubing. Just some options. More than one way to skin the cat.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Well, I got home and no one else was there so I went to work. Unfortinately the camera was w/ my wife so I don't have any pictures. But I did as I stated and used a piece of wood as my drill guide and it worked well. I did however have to go barrow my neighbore right angled air tool as my driver was too large to get in for the lower hole. 

I will try to get some pictures this weekend but the only thing I don't care too much for is the smallish lip on the blind nuts. The ones posted above definitely look larger. But it all appears to be holding. 

The other issue I have is that I can't run two of the specialized cages that I have. The shape of the one that goes in the new location hits the bottom of the other bottle. So for now I have my cheesey Origin 8 carbon one on there. It is also a tight fit for a 24 oz bottle. But if I am only sipping out of the down tube one then it is simple enough to swap them out when one is empty. I knew it would be a tight fit from the beginning. At least the bottles look like they are where they are supposed to be at this point.


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## gschwell (Mar 10, 2007)

You could easily make a depth gauge or stop to keep your bit from punching through. I'd image a small tube cut to length, or even just a wood block the right thickness with a hole in the middle for the bit. 

I'm excited to hear how it goes, keep us posted!


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