# Opinions, options, flaming needed



## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Ok this is it. Tired of my job, spent some absurd amount of money going to UBI. I want to try to build more frames, Maybe even as a side job to start.
Probably going to take out a loan to do this (what the hell, you can't take it with you).
Here's the problems:
Where... My garage is set up attached to the house with the furnace and water heater in it.
Set up there? Build a workshop in the back yard (I live in a historic district so
anything I build would have to be a "garage", Stupid, I know)
What......Tig welder, small drill press and a jig for the big stuff, use a friends stuff for
everything else? What would be a bare bones set up for right now?
How........Personal loan or just say screw and go business? Figure personal easier to 
deal with. Don't have to deal with insurance, etc.right away as I'd be building 
for friends and family and myself to learn.. Any opinions on this?

My two biggest concerns, money wise, are where to do it and getting a welder. I can hand miter,borrow and piece together the "smaller tools".
Help!


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I would spend the absolute least amount of money possible to get set up and get started by building some more frames for yourself and close bro's. Make the mistakes on your own stuff, build good stuff for others, build a rep slowly. DO NOT TAKE OUT LOANS.

It's really not a smart gamble. You will probably loose money. The bicycle business doesn't really flow cash outside of the retail.

You may be more successful in losing less money by finding another person or two that would like to make more of a shared hobby. Spred the losses out so that nobody really hits the wall.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

This is not the right economy to pursue this in...keep it hobby level and learn the trade. People are not going to be buying as many high end steeds with what they hear on the nightly news everyday.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

toddre said:


> What......Tig welder, small drill press and a jig for the big stuff, use a friends stuff for
> everything else? What would be a bare bones set up for right now?


The TIG welder is a big expense. Have you considered just sticking to O/A and going with fillet brazing, lugs, or O/A welding?

If you consider that you're building for fun part-time, with a limited tool selection, you're only going to build a couple of frames a year. What's the cost-per-frame to TIG them? Realistically, it's going to be more than the cost of raw materials.


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## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

On-One said:


> This is not the right economy to pursue this in...keep it hobby level and learn the trade. People are not going to be buying as many high end steeds with what they hear on the nightly news everyday.


This is absolutely the economy to do this. The opportunity cost of starting a business is low. This is the same idea as why MBA enrollments will go up next in September - build skills when there is little money to be made and wait out a weak market. I could go on and on about this but do not wait until the economy is better, as that will only increase the cost of starting your business/training. If you are ready, get started now and be ready to take advantage of the economy when the rebound occurs.


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

*elephant* I can tell you that this is NOT the time. I'm an industry lifer and also a part-time builder. Right now things suck on the bike front and people are spending less and less on discretionary items. I just came back from 3 years working in Canada and can't believe how bad things are in the U.S. in comparison. I'm siding with *pvd* on this.

*toddre* keep it a hobby and enjoy building bikes for fun. Unless huffing fumes, sore hands, and a salary in less than $10/hr appeals to you don't go into building. I can only do this because my wife is a professor and we have no kids, and don't plan to. The bike industry is a great industry in general and there are a few places you can actually make good money.

If you can tell us where you live and what you can do we might be able to help find something that would scratch that itch.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

toddre - I'm still willing to try and work with you for your next frame build if that'll help you out. I have confidence in you and your ability to build a solid frame, so let's keep talkin.

And I'm willing to help where I can on other aspects of things if you want to give this a shot.

Don't give up without thoroughly exploring all your options with it.

Mark


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

I've heard that the wealthy are recession-proof and turn their dollars toward 'healthy' spending in tough times, or at least that's what Seven told me.

Face it, though, you're probably not going to be starting out at an elite level, so your market (likely friends, shop rats and regional folks) are less likely to be wealthy. I would discourage you from trying to go pro at such an early stage. I tried that and it was a real challenge. 5 years later and I'm feeling better about it.

I think it's too soon, but don't listen to me if it's your passion.


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## 1gear (Jan 12, 2005)

As someone who pretty much did what you're thinking of doing I can tell you with absolute confidence that it would not be a good idea to get a loan. The loan payments are going to be due right from the start and you are not going to make enough to pay them for a very long time. 

There are very few new builders that are really making decent money, as in enough to live off of and maybe make additional money on top. I'm pretty sure I could count them on one hand. 

I'm not saying not to take it seriously enough to get some equipment and make a go of it. That's the only way it'll ever have any chance of working. Just that it would be unwise to start off in debt. Build things slowly, as you can afford them. I know it's tough when you get an idea in your head and are so damn sure that it'll work because other people are doing it so why not you. But people aren't kidding when they say it's a tough gig to get into. The only reason I've made it as far as I have is because I didn't have to worry about paying money back to other people back money or even making enough to pay myself back. If I had needed to I'd have been gone long ago.

One of the old-school builders that has been around longer than most is fond of saying that it's not about the bike, it's the builder that people are buying. He's right. Unless you are already really successful and are one of those types that people naturally want to talk with and be around, it's going to be tough to get people you don't know to buy your stuff. It takes time that a loan won't give you.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Good advise here. Self funding is the way to go, unless you have another job that will allow you to make repayments regardless of how many bikes you sell for an actual profit.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

The big reason a loan may be feasable is because we (wife and I) will look at it as an "education loan". She just finished up with her master's, now it's my turn. We have a plan in place to start paying it back if needed, just don't know if we should or not.
And also I do realize that the first few years will be "lean" (thank god she has a good job).
But my plans don't really include high end custom stuff anyways.


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

elephant said:


> This is absolutely the economy to do this. The opportunity cost of starting a business is low. This is the same idea as why MBA enrollments will go up next in September - build skills when there is little money to be made and wait out a weak market. I could go on and on about this but do not wait until the economy is better, as that will only increase the cost of starting your business/training. If you are ready, get started now and be ready to take advantage of the economy when the rebound occurs.


MBA enrollments are at an all time low... UT Austins EMBA is down 20%... I don't doubt that MBA enrollment may go up in September, but it does every year as most people graduate from there BS/BA in spring. But executive programs are way down and that is the true measurement of how the economy is doing. Professional students can go on forever, but when people decide to put that $70K EMBA on that back shelf even though it may be partially funded by their employer, then you know times are getting tougher.

One of my passions that I often considering pursuing is cabinet building...I have all the equipment, space, and skills...but no way right now. I talked to a company that builds custom decks the other day, they were dropping leaflets by houses in my neiborhood. He said times were bad and that they had not built a deck in month....bad signs.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Now that I think about it more, the problem I'm having is the old chicken or the egg syndrome.
I need the tooling to practice the welding and the trade in general to see if I like/am good at it, but it's a huge chunk of change to get the equipment to find out...LOL :madman:


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## heeler (Feb 13, 2004)

enroll in a tig course at your local jr. college/welding school/trade school. Would not cost much and not require equipment. Not to mention you would get constructive critism that you are not going to get just building frames for your buddies. Also you may find that you could make welding a side trade or full time trade (structural, machine shop environment) and then purchasing the rig would make more sense to you. 

I would actually start out learning SMAW as you could turn that into a career far quicker than tig. The guys I work with make a very comfortable living, don't work that much (2 weeks a month), but are sometimes on the road.


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## EnginCycles (Dec 21, 2006)

*Insurance*

don't let a single person ride a bike that is not INSURED. all this talk is crap without the first piece of professional advice INSURANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so many things pend on the insurance including your homeowners insurance which i am sure will not cover your house if it burns down while you are using a O/A torch and were not insured to use it. it is the first $1500 you spend if you plan on letting anyone other than yourself on that bicycle (and i even mean test rides).

my$.02
-drew

ps- don't bother with contracts or anything on written paper that states "i know i am buying this bike blah, blah, blah" it is as good as the piece of paper it is written on.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

1gear said:


> One of the old-school builders that has been around longer than most is fond of saying that it's not about the bike, it's the builder that people are buying. He's right.


In his case, he's right. People are purchasing his image and not his bike, because finer bikes are available quicker and for less money.

The new crop of builders has turned this on its head; they're actually focusing on content, rather than image. In the MTB market, personality is far less important because people are looking more for specific function than just a rolling status symbol. And if personality were key, then a number of boutique brands wouldn't have made it this far.

To bring this back on topic and actually make a point:

Yeah, you need to be fairly cool. At the very least, don't be super offensive. If you give the customer clear reasons to purchase your frame, rather than one from all the other guys, then you stand a good chance. I suggest you set a goal, at least a year in the future, and you bust arse developing ideas and honing your skills.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

get insurance. don't take out loans. it is unlikely that you will be flooded with orders immediately that you will not be able to take care of with a vise, files, a hacksaw, a drill, an A/O setup, and a jig. it will teach you basic skills you will need later. be careful what you ask for. be ready to re-do alot of stuff, have it take too long, and have folks be generally underwhelmed at your first efforts. hell, i made it. it was, and is, alot of work. get wholesale accounts, build bikes and wheels, do repairs {there are alot of them} and be highly visable. please note the amount of used jigs that rotate throughout the market, "barely used". good luck! steve.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Don't get too discouraged*

Take Steve's advice and build with minimal tools (and insurance, if you're doing it for anyone outside your *immediate* family - a minimum policy will run you $1500 or so) first. If you can't hack it with a hacksaw, files, a drill, and some minimal fixturing (I did my first 100 or so bikes that way), then you probably can't hack it under a mountain of debt either. Going in debt to start a framebuilding business would be an incredibly dumb idea, IMO.

Here's the thing - which I think you realize: if you haven't built many frames, you really have no idea if you even like doing it. Let alone doing it when it's freezing out, you're hungover, and an annoying customer calls 5 times a day to see how the frame is coming and to change her mind about crucial details. Or when someone decides to blackmail you on MTBR, or mysteriously drops off the face of the earth without paying you for a frame that just came back from the powdercoater.

Here's the bottom line: Get $1k worth of tools, plus some kind of fixture (search for used ones, or do a Dr. Welby special, or whatever). If you can't swing $1k-2k of stuff, forget it and go get some other job until you can.

In the meantime, take some classes. NOT metalworking or framebuilding - take classes in running a small business, doing accounting, etc. These are sometimes free (sponsored by various local agencies) or you can take a community college type class. If you can run a business well (and know how to price your services to actually be profitable) then you'll have a great foundation to pursue this further.

It ain't art, it's business, folks.

-Walt


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Toddre - don't forget about that Family Business Program that the UConn School of Business offers - I bet you could get a lot of good/free info from them on how to set up an LLC here in CT (it is a state where it is pretty easy to set up a limited liability corporation).

Also - read the email I sent you a few minutes ago.

MJM


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Excellent advice.

But don't let them fool you, Toddre, building bike frames, one after another after another, alone... so very alone... is glamorous work!

Check out S.C.O.R.E. (no not as sexy as it sounds) for FREE business counseling.

http://www.score.org/index.html

And try your local community college for small business development programs and business incubators.


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## havnmonkey (Apr 22, 2007)

$.02.... keep it as a hobby and you may still enjoy it a few years down the road... and by then, hey you might have a little bit of a client base going for you... and then you can start the transition to a business....


If you dump too much into a specialized venture like this, the easier it is to get your ass kicked... Remember there are 1,000+ different choices for someone looking to buy a bike... right now you would be 1,0001... but in five years you might be 501 or even better.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

All great advice..thanks...
Maybe this is a new thread but let's play "What If"

What if I had $3000 to play with to start up as a hobby with an eye to the future.
How would you guys spend it?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Good idea.*

This would be a good thing to add (or at least further specify) in the FAQ.

What I would buy with $3k (I'm assuming you *will not* be selling frames to anyone here, so I've left off insurance, and I'm assuming you'll buy brand new, good quality items):
-O/A tanks and torch stuff - $500 or so
-Good bench vise and lots of nice quality files - $300-400
-Variable speed drill and associated bits - $100

$1000 down.

-Abrasive saw (super, super useful for a lot of stuff)- $100
-Hacksaw, pliers, aircraft snips, leather gloves, etc. Other hand tools - $100-200 or more, it depends on what you've got and what you need.
-Good bike stand (ie, bolted to the floor, 2 clamps, etc) - $300 or so
-Flux, rod, brazing goggles, other consumables - $100
-Bench grinder and/or table mounted belt sander - $100-200
-Parts for home-built frame fixture (lots of plans floating around out there) - $300?

$2000 down, approximately.

-Tubes, dropouts, brazeons, etc for 3 or 4 basic frames - $500, probably basic 9/6/9 cromoly. Cheap and forgiving are the key words.

I'd keep the remaining $500 in reserve to buy more tubes, replace consumables, etc.

-Walt



toddre said:


> All great advice..thanks...
> Maybe this is a new thread but let's play "What If"
> 
> What if I had $3000 to play with to start up as a hobby with an eye to the future.
> How would you guys spend it?


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## 1gear (Jan 12, 2005)

I'd say Walt covered it pretty well. The only thing I'd change is to get a used O/A setup for a couple hundred less than what he lists and spend the difference on an electronic level. It's a little bit of a splurge, but the improvement in accuracy over any other type of guage or device for the job is HUGE. Not 100% necessary, but highly recommended. Especially if you're going to be using a homemade jig (or even a really expensive "real" one) that might need a little added help.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

So Walt (did you get my check, by the way?), my plan was to TIG. Are you saying I should braze instead? Tried a bit of brazing, really couldn't stand it..lol.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Walt said:


> -Flux, rod, brazing goggles, other consumables - $100
> 
> -Walt


...Unless you want to do silver. Have you seen the price of that stuff lately? Ouch!!!

Seriously, that's a pretty good list to get you going. Pay as you go! Be sure you like the trade and have the ability to line up some customers over the long term. If it doesn't work out, you can always sell everything off again. You may lose a little pride and/or $ in the process but you won't be saddled with an loan that may be difficult to pay back and you'll recover at least *some* of your initial investment.

It may not be the best market environment to get started in but who cares. If it's your ambition, work hard and make it happen.

Good luck!


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## thadthetroll (Jan 22, 2004)

*Starting..*

We started with about $1000.00 and did a homemade jig,oxy/acet files,little drill press and hand tools. We did several frames like that.
We then purchased a used HJ Jig and have accumulated a lot of tools,etc and have a pretty nice "homebuilders" shop for around $3500.$4000 total between the two of us.
We went ahead and formed an LLC which is not very expensive.
We have been at it for a little over three years and are at about 45 frames now. The thing is
we had around 30 frames under our belt between Gabe and me before we even started "selling" some to friends and very local people.
We may sell 6 frames this year( again only to local folks) so it does take a long time..
Folks can go purchase a taiwanise made frame for $325.00 and that`s what the masses will do...
We don`t envision being able to make a living at this but we do hope that the small amount of cash we take in will "feed our jones" and as we really love doing this we will be around for a long time as it is more of a "passion" than a business...


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Walt said:


> Take Steve's advice and build with minimal tools (and insurance, if you're doing it for anyone outside your *immediate* family - a minimum policy will run you $1500 or so) first. If you can't hack it with a hacksaw, files, a drill, and some minimal fixturing (I did my first 100 or so bikes that way), then you probably can't hack it under a mountain of debt either. Going in debt to start a framebuilding business would be an incredibly dumb idea, IMO.
> 
> Here's the thing - which I think you realize: if you haven't built many frames, you really have no idea if you even like doing it. Let alone doing it when it's freezing out, you're hungover, and an annoying customer calls 5 times a day to see how the frame is coming and to change her mind about crucial details. Or when someone decides to blackmail you on MTBR, or mysteriously drops off the face of the earth without paying you for a frame that just came back from the powdercoater.
> 
> ...


This seems to me to be spot on

I've worked at my shop since 1986, but now on a part time basis because I need real money, and if you are in the bike biz, you know what I'm talking about.

I've decided I want to build frames, and after building 3 for myself, I have 5 people wanting frames. This benefits both me and my shop. I want to work my way back into the shop.

Make no mistake. sawing, filing, and sanding sucks . . . after my first frame I wondered if this was something I wanted to for my primary income. All this handwork sucks. All this suffering is only realized when the finished product is made. I said to myself, I'll never commit myself to that again. Well a couple weeks go by, and I think about my mistakes, so I built another frame. It went faster and had less mistakes, but it still sucked . . . So I built/building a 3rd one. This is going even better, but I can't wait till it's done. . . . and this is for myself, let alone someone else.

Now the 2nd degree . . . "Building for Friends". I've got 5 frames to build for friends, I'm charging them just for the price of materials because I need the practice and exposure if I want to take this on full time. It might seem funny not charging them for my time. I want to know what full time frame builder feels like. If I start bringing in extra money from my hobby, then it will be exactly that. a hobby I earn extra money with. If I take on frame building as a business, it won't be extra money. Anyway your friends are more forgiving, and they understand you and your situation if you fall behind then they pretty much get it

The 3rd degree "Customers that you don't know, or know you". I've heard this why most builders quit. I've heard all kinds of storys. Most customers get it backwards, They don't understand that You are doing providing them a service, they think they are providing you with a service by choosing you to build them a bike that somehow you owe them. . . and that's not without merit . . . it works both way. Yea I know, "Welcome to the Real World", this is business. I've known two builders and it was having to deal with the customers that lead to their exit in the frame building biz. I think more important than having a great product is to have greater customer relations. I won't give up my day job anytime soon until I get my feet wet, or rather well saturated with customer relations. You know the old saying "This is real life folks, we can't make this stuff up", It's been my experience I can't imagine what will happen to me in the future.

Be prepared to be caught off guard.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*$ = insurance*

CD -

If you're going to charge for materials, you would be well advised to insure yourself. Seriously. Bad **** can happen to bikes, and your best bud might not be in a year or two - sh*t happens. Check out NIPC here: http://www.nipc.com/BikeMfrs.html

Second point, which isn't directed just at you - a "hobby" is not a business. If you want to build frames for your friends, fine, but IMO as soon as you're accepting money for your services, you are a business and should conduct yourself as such. Running a "business" that makes little or no money just dilutes the customer base for those folks who have dedicated their lives to building frames and actually need to make a profit. If you're going to sell frames, charge a reasonable price and aim to make money. Anything else is a disservice to both you and the other framebuilders out there.

Final thought: I didn't hang out a shingle until I had something like 25 frames under my belt, and I think I probably started a bit too soon. Thinking about business plans with 2 or 3 (or none) done is crazy - Steve said there were people with a couple of frames under their belt with full-on booths at NAHBS. That's nuts - spend your weekends building stuff for a year or two and get good at it, *then* decide if it makes sense to start selling.

-Walt



CurbDestroyer said:


> This seems to me to be spot on
> 
> I've worked at my shop since 1986, but now on a part time basis because I need real money, and if you are in the bike biz, you know what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Walt said:


> CD -
> 
> If you're going to charge for materials, you would be well advised to insure yourself. Seriously. Bad **** can happen to bikes, and your best bud might not be in a year or two - sh*t happens. Check out NIPC here: http://www.nipc.com/BikeMfrs.html
> 
> ...


Two questions for you Walt (or anyone).
Did you have the equipment already to build those 25 frames before you hung out a shingle? How did you aquire the tools?
OK that was two there so one more...
What did you do with those 25 frames? You and family? Friends? 
Thanks..You guys are awsome. Very easy to talk to. (unlike another frame forum that's full of pretentious..oh never mind)
I do know what you mean about the hobby vs. business thing too. I've been in that boat before.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Myself, family, friends*

I just built free frames for me (anything I could think of - quite a few of them are now rusting at the dump), my wife, and my friends. Didn't take money for them, though. I built a lot of townies and dirtjumping bikes and stuff, where I could use super-cheap, heavy tubing and be really confident that things would hold up even if I made minor mistakes. EVERYONE likes a unique townie, and they're not going to ***** at you if something isn't symmetrical, or a weld looks lumpy, or the head tube angle isn't quite right. Plus you can spraypaint them yourself, all kinds of fun colors.

I just ponied up the money for tools, figuring it would be a fun hobby. Probably dropped about $5k initially (and at this point, I bet I have $35k worth of tools and tubing), but that's not any more than many of us would spend for a well-equipped high end bike, so I figured I'd just not buy myself any new bikes for a year or two (how horrible!)

As I said before, my tooling was fairly basic - pretty much just a vise and some files, plus a little tiny TIG welder. Then I got an Anvil fixture from Don on sale, and I started doing some more ambitious stuff.

-Walt



toddre said:


> Two questions for you Walt (or anyone).
> Did you have the equipment already to build those 25 frames before you hung out a shingle? How did you aquire the tools?
> OK that was two there so one more...
> What did you do with those 25 frames? You and family? Friends?
> ...


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

Walt --

What would you recommend for alignment at the price points you're talking about? I didn't see any kind of surface plate or alignment table in your lists... and how did you handle aligning and cold setting frames before you tooled up? That's one of the things I'm most concerned about as I move towards my first frame -- I have the feeling it will be wildly off-straight, just based on some of the test projects I've been doing to practice my brazing!

Thanks, 

Jeff


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*A few tips*

First of all, if you're doing a first project, or something for yourself, don't sweat alignment too much. I've had bikes (not my own) in the past that have been *ridiculously*, visually out of alignment. They all rode just fine. I'm certainly not saying to pay no attention to alignment at all, but you don't need a surface place and dial indicator to make a frame that rides straight.

Second point: cold setting is what you do when you've already blown it. If you get tight miters, a good joining sequence, and you don't cook any of your tubes too much, you should end up with something relatively straight without doing any cold setting at all.

Aligning the front triangle can be done with any flat surface and measuring device, or (if you have a tiny bit of time to make the tool) with something similar to the old Park ***-1 (I wonder if MTBR will censor that?) - it's basically a long arm with an indicator on it, which bolts to the face of the BB shell . You move the arm around to various points on the frame to see if they're aligned. This isn't going to get you accuracy to <1mm or anything (and that's assuming your BB faces are parallel), but it's a tool you can easily make yourself for $20 or so. I was unable to find a picture online, but I can do a better description if needed. It's similar to the DAG tool (but it attaches to the BB shell, rather than the derailleur hanger):
https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/311GT3DWWZL._AA280_.jpg

Remember that if you're indexing from the faces of the BB, you'll want to make sure it's faced - you may need to face it again after joining the tubes if it distorts a lot. Most BB taps have optional facer attachments that work pretty well.

If you are good at eyeballing things, rear alignment needs no more tools than a dished, true wheel. Stick it in, stand in front and in back, and squint a lot (you can put a tire on, which can help with the eyeballing - just make sure it doesn't have any weird wobbles). There are, of course, ways in which the rear end can be out of alignment that you won't be able to see with this technique, but it's a good general way to check. You can use the tool described earlier to make sure the dropouts are evenly spaced from the centerline, too.

As for actual cold setting, you'll just need something to hold onto the BB shell very strongly, some big levers, and a lot of patience. I pretty much never have to cold set anything at this point, and I've had mixed results doing it (it's hard to get steel to deform without buckling it, in many cases). You can also fix minor alignment issues, many times, using a technique called "torch wanding" in which you unevenly heat the tube in question with an O/A torch (not much, though - probably only need to get it to 1000F or so). You can pull a tube in one direction or another with this technique, I learned it from Richard Sachs, who uses it to align and space fork blades.

Is that helpful?

-Walt



ong said:


> Walt --
> 
> What would you recommend for alignment at the price points you're talking about? I didn't see any kind of surface plate or alignment table in your lists... and how did you handle aligning and cold setting frames before you tooled up? That's one of the things I'm most concerned about as I move towards my first frame -- I have the feeling it will be wildly off-straight, just based on some of the test projects I've been doing to practice my brazing!
> 
> ...


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## ong (Jun 26, 2006)

That's extremely helpful, Walt! Thanks for the encouragement, and the great tips... yes, this will be my first frame. Although I AM hoping to have something to tour on this summer, I will have time to try again if this one is a total disaster! Alignment has been the main thing I'm worried about -- my brazing is still ugly, but reasonably consistent now, and I'm getting good internal fillets when I start with decent miters.

MTBR did indeed censor the name of the tool, but I know the one you're talking about -- British for cigarette, right?

I have built up a pretty straight and well-dished rear wheel for the bike already (and I built a truing stand so I could build the wheel!), and I was planning to use that to check the rear triangle before and after tacking it... I'm also planning on getting a chunk of granite countertop or something pretty flat to use as a reference surface (and some inexpensive V-blocks -- grizzly.com has good prices on them!). But I don't think I can fit a surface plate on my Xtracycle!

I'll put up some pictures as I get further along with the project... got some more practice brazes to do before I get to the frame, but I'm getting closer. Thanks again!


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

*try getting a job that will teach you how to weld*

learn how to make really good bikes before you start a company. If you have a comfortable job buy equipment as available and practice. Also if you want to start a frame company, ask yourself what you are bringing to the table. What are you going to contribute that hasn't been done? Obviously your quality is not going to be a contribution for quite a while and thats a tough nut to crack, the bar is high. Do you have any design or construction ideas that will make any real difference? You might be the only guy in your area and you might fill that need but otherwise, what ya got that is needed or wanted. Flavor of the week only lasts so long. There are builders on this forum that are exceptionally talented and hard working and that combined with luck has brought them success. I love my job and I get to build the frames I want to when I want to and ride more than when I built full time. 
Cheers, Wade


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Call your local welding cupply , they may have a rent to own program on a decent priced T.I.G. welder


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## TacoMan (Apr 18, 2007)

If you are working with large diameter thin heat-treated tubes, I don't recommend aligning the front triangle. You have to get it right the first time. Cold setting is yielding the material. You can cold set plain 4130 ok, but yielding material with a 175 yield strength can cause damage. You can usually align the BB shell a little since that is not heat-treated, but trying to twist the head tube with a 1.75” super-therm DT would be nuts.

So it is best to work with non-heat-treated tubes until you learn how to build them straight.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Walt said:


> CD -
> 
> If you're going to charge for materials, you would be well advised to insure yourself. Seriously. Bad **** can happen to bikes, and your best bud might not be in a year or two - sh*t happens. Check out NIPC here: http://www.nipc.com/BikeMfrs.html
> 
> ...


You bring up a good point about insurance. So does this mean you paid, built and gave away your first 25 frames? I'm only accepting money for the price of materials and not the labor. I guess technically I'm accepting money, but I'm just passing it on to the material supplier. Actually I'm just handling money.

As far as diluting the custom customer base, I'm building frames for people who wouldn't buy a custom frame anyway, so actually I'm introducing people to the custom frame market. I understand your concern about diluting the custom frame business market with my hobby. You can draw comparisons to when mail order got big at the end of the 80's. I remember when Performance was selling Giro helmuts for $35, and our shop cost was $37. That's not fair. However when they first came out I don't have a problem with Giro giving some helmuts away for free to see how the market place will accept it, This is where I'm at. I don't think the 5 frames I'm going to build are going to throw anybody off, since they where were not in the market for a custom frame to begin with. Yes once I get going I'll charge a reasonable rate, but right now I have 0 demand. My plan is to stop "Working for the Man", and do this full time, but right now I can't quit my day job. My plan is to start charging after those 5 frames. I have a full time job and a part time now, my free time is at a premium. I'd like to start making enough money to quit my part time job, then enough to quit my full time. . . . Who knows

You points are well taken. You are a model of success and I respect your opinion.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Cd*

Yo CD:

Yup, I bought the materials for about 25 frames and just gave 'em to friends (and myself, and the landfill, in some cases). If you're using cheap cromoly tubes and not trying to do anything super high performance, per-frame materials costs are only $50 or so. I figured $1200 was a good investment in figuring out what I was doing. If you can't save that kind of money, sell a bike or two - think of it as an investment. Like any other business, you have to spend money to make money, and if you don't have at least $10k up front to get going, it's going to be really hard to make headway.

I'm not trying to discourage you from building free frames for your pals - far from it. I think it's the best way to get decent at building (and btw, unless you're the world's quickest learner, do more than 5 frames before you think about quitting your day job). I'm talking more about the kind of attitude that says "framebuilders are all starving artists, who build for the love of bikes, not for money, so I'm going to build custom frames for $500 and pay myself $3/hour". That kind of "business" has been popping up a lot lately (and disappearing, too, of course) and it really does dilute the market for the established builders. I charged far too little when I started, and soon realized that I wasn't making any money - boom, time to raise prices. I believe Don Ferris has calculated that the minimum needed to make a "decent" (meaning, >$30k/year) living building frames is $1000-1200 (for tig'd steel).

-Walt



CurbDestroyer said:


> You bring up a good point about insurance. So does this mean you paid, built and gave away your first 25 frames? I'm only accepting money for the price of materials and not the labor. I guess technically I'm accepting money, but I'm just passing it on to the material supplier. Actually I'm just handling money.
> 
> As far as diluting the custom customer base, I'm building frames for people who wouldn't buy a custom frame anyway, so actually I'm introducing people to the custom frame market. I understand your concern about diluting the custom frame business market with my hobby. You can draw comparisons to when mail order got big at the end of the 80's. I remember when Performance was selling Giro helmuts for $35, and our shop cost was $37. That's not fair. However when they first came out I don't have a problem with Giro giving some helmuts away for free to see how the market place will accept it, This is where I'm at. I don't think the 5 frames I'm going to build are going to throw anybody off, since they where were not in the market for a custom frame to begin with. Yes once I get going I'll charge a reasonable rate, but right now I have 0 demand. My plan is to stop "Working for the Man", and do this full time, but right now I can't quit my day job. My plan is to start charging after those 5 frames. I have a full time job and a part time now, my free time is at a premium. I'd like to start making enough money to quit my part time job, then enough to quit my full time. . . . Who knows
> 
> You points are well taken. You are a model of success and I respect your opinion.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Hey Walt...
First a HUGE ammount of props for taking the time for us hack and hack wanna be frame builders..it really is above and beyond.

Back OT, how much time do you think you spend building a frame start to finish, eliminating the customer dialog part (sizing, phone tag, etc)?

Just curious.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Walt said:


> Yo CD:
> 
> Yup, I bought the materials for about 25 frames and just gave 'em to friends (and myself, and the landfill, in some cases). If you're using cheap cromoly tubes and not trying to do anything super high performance, per-frame materials costs are only $50 or so. I figured $1200 was a good investment in figuring out what I was doing. If you can't save that kind of money, sell a bike or two - think of it as an investment. Like any other business, you have to spend money to make money, and if you don't have at least $10k up front to get going, it's going to be really hard to make headway.
> 
> ...


Yep . . . all 4130. I was going to just give them away, but my friends wanted Zona, tubing, or this, that, the other thing, and I said that's fine. Just buy it and I'll assemble it. So that's how that started. It's about $60 a frame, and it doesn't break the bank. And the experience is well worth the $60 investment. Basically all these frames are R&D projects.

Right now I have a HJ Jig, O/A torch, a vise, saws, a grinder, files. I'd like get a gas-fluxer, mill, and an anvil seat and chainstay fixture. No reason to do all the miters by hand, when it can be done faster and with more precision.

I'm not hoping to quit my full time job, as much as my part time job. Although my part-time job is in a hardware store, about a 2 minute ride from my house. I like all the discounts, but I sure could use the 15 hours a week building frames.

As they say, "Time is money". Right now all the free labor I'm doing is an investment in my education. Once I get it down, I'm not going to want to spend my time going over something I already know. Then my time will be worth something. Like I said I have a family, a full time, and a part time job.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

Is anyone using an oxy-propane setup for brass fillets or silver brazing lugs? I've been saying for years that I want to start building bikes, and things seem to be aligning properly this year at last. My current setup is a Meeco Aviator torch, kevlar hoses, and oxy-propane. They guy I bought the torch from tossed in some silver and flux, but I haven't looked at them in a while, so I forget what they are.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

A Meeco Aviator torch sould be great.............I have not used one personally but have seen and heard good things about them as it applies to control of the flame. When I was starting and looking for a torch it was my first choice but was kinda too pricey for me at the time. Good luck.......


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

MichauxYeti said:


> Is anyone using an oxy-propane setup for brass fillets or silver brazing lugs?


Yep, my last 5 frames were Oxy-LP. I find the fillets to be harder and the lugs to be easier that with Oxy-Act. I do it because I like the safety and ease of availability of LP since I'm constantly moving my shop. Oxy-LPs main difference is the flame is quite a bit bigger and a bit cooler, so more preheating is required.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

themanmonkey said:


> *elephant* I can tell you that this is NOT the time. I'm an industry lifer and also a part-time builder. Right now things suck on the bike front and people are spending less and less on discretionary items. I just came back from 3 years working in Canada and can't believe how bad things are in the U.S. in comparison.


Just a little off topic, but where were you living up here? I am a Canuck, and am definitely interested in anecdotal info like the stuff above about the US economy. Where are you now?

I think the world is in for a few rough years, or more.....

Drew


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Well my initial thought of building a work shop in the back yard is slowly spiraling down the drain.
I live in a historic district and I can't build anything larger than 11sq. ft. shed unles it's a garage. (which might be over kill and aot more money)
Then trying to get it wired would mean jumping thry hoops.
Not quite sure what I'm going to do now.


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## MichauxYeti (Nov 10, 2005)

toddre said:


> Well my initial thought of building a work shop in the back yard is slowly spiraling down the drain.
> I live in a historic district and I can't build anything larger than 11sq. ft. shed unles it's a garage. (which might be over kill and aot more money)
> Then trying to get it wired would mean jumping thry hoops.
> Not quite sure what I'm going to do now.


A garage door would be handy for bringing in larger pieces of equipment anyways. Would it really be that difficult to disguise your workshop as a carriage house? If you take off the dormer windows and eliminate one of the overhead doors, this shouldn't be too expensive.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

MichauxYeti said:


> A garage door would be handy for bringing in larger pieces of equipment anyways. Would it really be that difficult to disguise your workshop as a carriage house? If you take off the dormer windows and eliminate one of the overhead doors, this shouldn't be too expensive.


Or I can make an apartment and move in away from my wife! LOL
Yeah I see what you're saing, but you've never lived in "Olde Wethersfield, the oldest town in CT". 
I gotta do a bit more research to see what I can get away with and what kind of hit has on my property taxes...:madman:


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## themanmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

dru said:


> Just a little off topic, but where were you living up here? I am a Canuck, and am definitely interested in anecdotal info like the stuff above about the US economy. Where are you now?


I was in Vancouver where my wife was teaching at UBC and I was a service manager at a nice shop up there. We're back in north Idaho, but have lived all over the U.S. and spent a year in Belgium too.

There is nothing anecdotal about the fall of the U.S. economy right now. House prices nation wide have fallen about 20% and consumer confidence and spending is at a 60 year low. I won't even speak about the mortgage crisis. Most folks down here have their heads in th sand about the future. We'll come back out of it but it's going to take 10-15 years.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

toddre said:


> Or I can make an apartment and move in away from my wife! LOL
> Yeah I see what you're saing, but you've never lived in "Olde Wethersfield, the oldest town in CT".
> I gotta do a bit more research to see what I can get away with and what kind of hit has on my property taxes...:madman:


Build outta someone else's space?


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