# lightest centerlock disc in the world



## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

Just want to shere with you what i managed to do lately.

centerlock version 160mm: 65g 
7075 anodised spider, titanium 2mm brake surface Ti6al4v, 5 ti (grade 5) pro-bolts
weight without lockring (but dura-ace 12-13t will be 5g)

6 bolts iso disc 
140mm: 40g , 2mm thick Ti6al4v
160mm: 49.5g ,2mm thick Ti6al4v
180mm: 58g, 2mm thick Ti6al4v

In couple of days i will test 6 bolt rotors. With centerlock will be a bit worse because preparing a prototype will cost a fortune unless i will find 30 testers than the cost will be much lower. 
All disc are calculated in Solidworks (cosmos) and they held up really good. They can withstand over 280Nm rotating force. In near future i plan to coat them with ceramics but it is quite tricky for me at the moment (working on this one now)
Anyway they are the lightest in the moment and much cheaper than scrub or carbon-ti.

have fun.


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

nice work, keep it up - but not yet lighter than Innolite's

http://www.innolite.se/sida.aspx?id=50

...tehan can you test them without actually mounting them on a bike? (might be safer)


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## facelessfools (Aug 30, 2008)

they look sick! nice job!


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

culturesponge said:


> nice work, keep it up - but not yet lighter than Innolite's
> 
> http://www.innolite.se/sida.aspx?id=50
> 
> ...tehan can you test them without actually mounting them on a bike? (might be safer)


Show me lighter centerlock version
innolite is from alu so will be always a bit lighter. If i use 1.7mm thick Ti i will drop 4-5g more.
for tests - have special bike for this ocassion so will not be a problem.


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## ohadamirov (Jun 26, 2008)

WOW! Great job!


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

tehan said:


> Show me lighter centerlock version
> innolite is from alu so will be always a bit lighter. If i use 1.7mm thick Ti i will drop 4-5g more.
> for tests - have special bike for this ocassion so will not be a problem.


not knocking, great work so far tehan - be safe!

...i'm wondering why is centrelock really so important?

also i think your rivets might possibly be too wide & perhaps could cause clearance problems with some forks - often the rivets are in-line with the spider & rotor like these Hope floating rotors


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

The rotors look good. 
what is the price of the rotors? Do they offer any good braking power?


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## ohadamirov (Jun 26, 2008)

culturesponge said:


> i'm wondering why is centrelock really so important?


Centerlock is highly important if using DT SWISS 190's hubs.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

cosmos =/= the real world


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## fastback67 (Apr 6, 2010)

great job.

what will the CL disc weight with a steel brake surface ?

without specified knowledge about something like this: i think the open eye's for the screw's is a mistake.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

rotor is not held up by screws in position. i did smart trick and it is solution like in best race motorbikes rotors. Everything is calculated and rivets will not touch any fork. thay are 0.5mm thiner than centerlock lockring, so there is no way to touvh the fork.
I know that simulation is not same as real world thats why i plan to do a prototype but it cost a fortune.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

and as to steel brak surface... it would be 92g with " 420 stainless steel"
if Ti will not work i'll do them in steel. Still be the lightest anyway


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## fastback67 (Apr 6, 2010)

tehan said:


> and as to steel brak surface... it would be 92g with " 420 stainless steel"


:thumbsup: 
are you looking for testrider ? here i am.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

tehan said:


> and as to steel brak surface... it would be 92g with " 420 stainless steel"
> if Ti will not work i'll do them in steel. Still be the lightest anyway


Just do them in steel ! I don't care for light weight when performance drops especially at the brakes. Do them in steel and you will have a winner!

People that have centerlock hubs aren't those looking for absolute lightest otherwise they would have chosen different hubs right away...centerlock users are those who want bulletproof performance...those people usually look for steel rotors that actually perform.


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

i agree with nino, perfect this design in a affordable media like stainless steel - then perhaps do a small run of Ti rotors and realistically compete for the world's lightest title (a cad drawing is very light though!)

i'm an avid DT 190 hub user (3 wheelsets now) but i'm using my own mod SL centrelock adapters (not for sale) - centrelock rotors often tend to be very screechy and hefty

good luck!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

culturesponge said:


> i agree with nino, perfect this design in a affordable media like stainless steel - then perhaps do a small run of Ti rotors and realistically compete for the world's lightest title (a cad drawing is very light though!)
> 
> i'm an avid DT 190 hub user (3 wheelsets now) but i'm using my own mod SL centrelock adapters (not for sale) - centrelock rotors often tend to be very screechy and hefty
> 
> good luck!


Wow, nice work!
That's a lot of effort you put into that adapter.Would you have a picture of the CK lockring isntalled on the bike? I have a 12t DA lockring here but to me it seems it isn't large enough and does cover only the inner tips of the rotor. How do the CK lockrings look like on the bike? Maybe also a close-up pic of your tuned adapter on the bike?

As mentioned elsewhere i also built myself some nice wheels using DT Ceramic hubs and 300g Alex rims BUT the 30g centerlock adapters ruin the otherwise nice 1220g wheelset weight...so any way to get rid of those boat anchors is sure welcome.


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## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

culturesponge said:


> i agree with nino, perfect this design in a affordable media like stainless steel - then perhaps do a small run of Ti rotors and realistically compete for the world's lightest title (a cad drawing is very light though!)
> 
> i'm an avid DT 190 hub user (3 wheelsets now) but i'm using my own mod SL centrelock adapters (not for sale) - centrelock rotors often tend to be very screechy and hefty
> 
> good luck!


Wow Culturesponge, those are not only beautiful, but very impressive. VERY VERY Nice and LIGHT!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

thanks, but i just buffed them on a wheel - my father-in-law has all the skills + his Instrument Fabrication workshop in North Hollywood

...sorry tehan for mucking up your thread - do you have an update on your rotors?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

i'm preparing proffesional test centre so in maybe 2 weeks i'll show results. we'll see!


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

good luck + post photos!


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

they work!!! 
Funny thing is that you can't burn the rotors, but you can burn the pads. Rotors after long descending are only warm, maybe 40C deg (you can touch them by hand!)

Need more testing, but it look very good.


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## damond (Sep 9, 2008)

they look very very good!

Need testers?


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Tehan: so you got them safely.

No vibrating due to eventual uneven thickness?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

yes Mattias thanks. Forgot to reply.

Front was a bit bent when i got so it is vibrating a bit. But i think it will be beter after longer use. Besides they work fine till now. Need more testing.


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## IM31408 (Dec 24, 2008)

Did you get a weight for them?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

they are 3g heavier because i got them in 2.16mm instead of 2mm
new one i will do from 1.9mm and will be 47g for160 and 56g for 180


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## ancient rascal (Mar 2, 2010)

Nice........centerlock is my only choice without an adapter for the 240 SS disk hub wheelset I am building. There will be big demand for those puppies.


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## hardtailkid (Jan 25, 2010)

I wanna be a tester   
That'd be awesome


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## Dauer962 (Oct 27, 2009)

tehan said:


> they work!!!
> Funny thing is that you can't burn the rotors, but you can burn the pads. Rotors after long descending are only warm, maybe 40C deg (you can touch them by hand!)
> 
> Need more testing, but it look very good.


Where can I buy them?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

from me, but still test them. When they will be finished i will all let you know.


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## hardtailkid (Jan 25, 2010)

Any idea how much money you want each? I would like to test a pair.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

still testing them.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

small update.

After 2 months of hard riding i can tell that they are still going strong!!  I had to do small corrections to the design so now they should be even better (tested by FEA also). Last week i have tested them in Afan (Wales) and must say i was impressed by braking power compared to such low weight. 
vids not mine, but at least you can see how these trials look:




http://www.youtube.com/wa...feature=related

I've just ordered titanium sheet to cut more of those beauties. expect them to have in 3 weeks.


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## damond (Sep 9, 2008)

i really want them


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Tehan: congratulations to a good design, hope they last.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

thank you Mattias.


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

tehan said:


> small update.
> 
> After 2 months of hard riding i can tell that they are still going strong!!  I had to do small corrections to the design so now they should be even better (tested by FEA also). Last week i have tested them in Afan (Wales) and must say i was impressed by braking power compared to such low weight.


How did you clamp and load the rotor in your FEA Analysis, because as far as I know COSMOSWorks does not have a lot of options for loadings. NOTHING like a REAL CAD/CAM program like CATIA V5. Solidworks is a joke in comparison. It might be useful for CAD drawings but it is probably the worst at FEA. It really is just an introduction to FEA.

Also, it doesn't matter what FEA you run, you should still put this on a Brake Dyno for real world testing....and the fact that you say the ROTOR DOESN'T GET WARM, but the PADS BURN UP! Well, that's because Titanium has horrible Thermal Conductivity:

Ti: .312 Watts/ cm C(deg)

Fe (Iron): 1.32 Watts/ cm C(deg)

That means that Steel/Iron is over 4 times better at conducting heat (not burning up pads) than Titanium! Not to mention cheaper.

You would have to be a really, really stupid Weight Weenie to sacrifice that much braking performance to save a couple of grams. :nono:


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

*Go To School*



Mattias_Hellöre said:


> Tehan: congratulations to a good design, hope they last.


Mattias, what qualifies you to rate his designs? Especially since you have some of the worst designs mistakes I've ever seen, and many product failures to boot.

Personally, I would rather make one part that NEVER FAILS, then ever make any of the crap designs you guys are posting.

It seems you value lightweight over EVERYTHING ELSE, and it is a joke, and I really wish people would think twice before plopping down hard earned cash to save a few grams and have a product fail - especially something so important like a Brake Rotor.

If you guys had any balls you would at least run some FEA and show us the results and what loads your rotors are capable of taking. Otherwise, give me the CAD design and I will do it for you in CATIA V5.

Of course, you would never do that, because I'm sure you're not actually doing any of it right anyway. FEA is like the best/worst design tool ever invented. It can validate an idiotic design a thousand times over, and all the guy did wrong was choose a big mesh size because his computer couldn't handle the computations. Trust me, I've taken Senior Mech. Engineering FEA courses and I still doubt the validity of a lot of the results-mainly because I know how ******** FEA results can be. Just changing the mesh from Linear to Parabolic can get you orders of magnitude different results. And yes, you can get completely inaccurate results even when you're highly trained. :madman:


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

ginsu2k: please stop, you are only pathetic now.


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## rensho (Mar 8, 2004)

Ginsu, some folks on the board are all about WW like you say. The fact that parts don't work isn't much of an issue, as long as it kinda fits and you can take a pic of it to illustrate how light it is or the contraption. Arguing about it isn't worth anyone's breath.

Weather is good these days, let's ride.


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm done, don't worry. But, I'm going to say 'I told you so' when somebody post the inevitable part failure. Otherwise, enjoy the trails guys, I know I am!


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm curious to see the FEA results on this rotors too.
FEA comparison with standard OEM rotors and also brake performance comparison would be great.


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

+2 

any photos of your rotors on scales tehan?


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

sergio_pt:
FEA simulation of Tehans disc compared to a original disc is not easy to compare when applicated to real world, I´ve got my share of that.

The best solution for me and probably for others is real world testing, better to wear full body armor 

Until now I don´t rely 100% on FEA testing done by unexperienced people (me).


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

All of my work can be see here:
http://light-bike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16234

Not only you (ginsu2k) had some courses
It took me about 2 months to find proper spider which withstand 250Nm braking force. (that force is used by many manufacturers for 160mm rotor) my 180mm i tested for 320Nm.
I have also studied Technical Phisics on one of the best Technical University in my country. Still have connections there so this design was consulted with 2 doctors who teach Catia and Solidworks (and create real worl things)

I have made also new design since my last one created a bit to much wear to pads. These rotors will be coated by ceramics soon also New one will be a bit heavier- for 160mm it's 53g, and was run on catia by my friend on Uni. (at some point will show results of this also)

Want pictures, here you go:
On one of them is Marta rotor in Titanium and steel version to comparsion how those 2 metals work. All of those rotors are safe according to FEA results (and my 2 month testing in real world). Plastic deformation are on 0.2-0.3 maximum loads for this material.

Have you ever tried ti rotors ginsu2k??? Mine are much better in performance than hope mono mini ones!! stop me faster and do not burn. 
I run FEA each time i do modifications ,than do real world testing at least. Btw have you ever designed any rotor?? do you know how the forces act on such thing? Have you ever made one and tested to judge what is good and what is bad?? Have you ever created anything in real world ? i will be glad to see.

Besides Brake dyno will be done also so stop writing this bo***hit. They just work, is it so hard to accept that??

Thermal conductivity is one side and air flow is other. If you don't know too much then don't write too much. Air flow is the most important factor and this can only be tested in real world riding. Take a look Alu rotors (thermal cond. is better 3 times than steel) an still those rotors are not the best. Fadding is a common thing on those as well as overhiting. So as you see, books are sometimes one thing and riding on the bike is second thing.

have a nice day all. Hope there is no more pessimists on this forum

Btw. I'm not going to show all my work behind the curtain just because someone do not believe in it. That is my way to do it and when i do something i do it always with details!

and one more thing. You never know who sits on the other side of the screen so first make sure before you call someone stupid. That's a good advice for all actually. It's really pathetic how some people can be "clever" on the forum but in real world they are usually nobody.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

They are very light, about half the weight of the 160mm R1 rotors. Nice work on that end.
I'm concerned about the small surface for braking. But If they hold up well why not sending me a pair for testing on my R1 brakes?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

I have ordered titanium sheet couple of days ago so it will be opportunity
My next generation of rotors has larger braking surface as you can see, so it will be even better.
The only reason i want to change the design is pad wear( was a bit grater then on regular rotor)


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Tehan: you did your homework.
Congratulations, I´m usually are careful to call people things like Ginsu2k did , keyboard warriors is that 13 of a dozen here in internet.

The real peoples who can something is more rarely on internet really.

My stuff I do is all wide open for people to see, I unfornutately have too little time to do serious FEA testing or hire someone to do that, lack of money and time is a bad combo.

/Mattias


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

FEA is one thing Mattiass, but most important is real world testing as you mention many times. And this is a proof if something work or not!
I don't have such machine shop like you do so can't cut everything i have invented to test - that is why i am using FEA. It helps me choose best project and than test it in mud (and save some money) So basicallly we are still on same level - everything goes to real world test.
There will be always some failure possibility, but without failures we would not go forward!!!
Always same story from ages. When someone invent somthing beyond common things people just say - i will not work, it's sh...t, etc. But when such thing is produced after a time by a BRAND than it is super working thing 
have a nice day


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## biketuna (Mar 28, 2008)

tehan where are your new rotors?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

i have a Ti sheet. Will cut it within 2 weeks but still waiting for stuff to coat them by ceramics it will be something really spot on . So be patient.

I could sell them like they are now, but to increase wear i'm working on ceramics coating. Almost done so will be soon!!


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## Dauer962 (Oct 27, 2009)

I want to buy rotors. Give me information about them


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

i will, when i do few thing more. By the end of Nov i will have them completed.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

tehan said:


> i will, when i do few thing more. By the end of Nov i will have them completed.


I'm watching...

and waiting.


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

Curious...

What pads would a person use on ceramic rotors, and how do they compare in stopping power compared to the more traditional stainless steel?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

swiss stops perform best. such 55g rotor will never have a power of 120g one.But good i would say 85-90% it has. Initial bite is not so strong. But long time braking is very similar except fading which such rotor almost do not experience.


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## SmilMick (Apr 9, 2006)

anyone trying to claim the longevity or reliability of a product by hanging it on a Gary Fisher frame (still in one piece) clearly has some more testing to do lol!


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

soon few people will test them by their own so don't know what you mean by this.


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## Tomaass (Nov 14, 2009)

any news on lightests centerlock rotors ??


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

i have made already specific bolts for them. Spiders are in propduction so first or second week of Jan will be ready. The only problem i have is getting MMC material on time now for braking surface. There will be also carbon braking surface as an option (first prototype is being made for me now) and as usual stainless steel option.


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## Tomaass (Nov 14, 2009)

great news. will it be possible to order them or get for free to test? also what weight you expect with stainless steel braking surface? because i'm looking for best weight/stopping power ratio.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

i don't have many in testing run so i don't know if any will left for sale. But if they will be ok than i will make some more. on SS it will be around 98g for 160mm, and around 55-60g on MMC.


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## checky (Jan 13, 2006)

Tomaass said:


> great news. will it be possible to order them or get for free to test? also what weight you expect with stainless steel braking surface? because i'm looking for best weight/stopping power ratio.


Do you know about the 2011 Formula centerlock rotor:
https://www.formula-brake.it/images/banner/mini_2011.png?1285165497


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

checky said:


> Do you know about the 2011 Formula centerlock rotor:
> https://www.formula-brake.it/images/banner/mini_2011.png?1285165497


those look sweet... no 140mm


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

it's just a claim weight, so in production it will be more. so assuming that 160mm will have 110g than it is only 7g lighter than new xtr... not impressive


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I wonder how thin those 2-piece 2011 Formula rotors are..


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