# My first bikepacking trip & impressions (Surly ECR on the White Pine Trail, Michigan)



## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

*My first bikepacking trip & impressions (Surly ECR on the White Pine Trail, Michigan)*

My 48-year-old knees hurt like hell, and my left hand still has numbness and some weird nerve thing affecting my ring & pinky fingers after my 2-day, 125-mile solo bikepacking trip. That said, I really enjoyed my first bikepacking trip.

Mine was on the tame end of adventure relative to many here. I left home in Northeast Grand Rapids, Michigan, hopped on the southern-most end of the White Pine Trail about 5 miles from home, and rode it straight north to a little town called Paris just north of Big Rapids. I had never ridden north of Sand Lake previously, where the asphalt turns to 2-track for the majority of the route. Aside from dodging piles of horse poop for more miles than I'd prefer (equestrian use is prohibited, but apparently not being enforced), the dirt portions were quite enjoyable. There were a handful of greasy/slick sections, and also a couple sandy ones. Most was hard pack, though.

I rode a Surly ECR that I built up from a frameset. I built it as a combination commuter/bikepacking ride. It may see some local singletrack, too.

The bike performed flawlessly, as I had hoped. The Shimano XT 1x11 drivetrain isn't as "polished' as the SRAM GX 1x11 on my Big Fat Dummy, but it was still a solid choice based on the savings over the equivalent SRAM parts. Time will tell if I feel the same way after a couple years of riding. The bike has a mix of RaceFace Turbine & Chris King parts, with WTB Scraper i40s laced to XT hubs, the front being a dynamo that powers a Supernova headlight & Sinewave Cycles Reactor USB charger. Bags & handlebar harness are all Revelate, with the exception of a Salsa Anything Bag. Despite that the ECR was designed around a 29" x 3.0" tire, I feel like the 2.5" Surly ET tires were born for this bike. I have read countless threads with mostly speculative comments about the bottom bracket height causing pedal strike, but for my purposes, I'm not concerned. It still has 1/8" more BB clearance than my SS Steelman Eurocross, and I've never had issues with pedal strike on that bike in a number of on- & off-road conditions, including local singletrack. The ETs roll smooth on pavement, which makes them great for the commuting duties the bike will see.

I _may_ try a set of Jones H-Bar Loops to see if that helps with the numbness. I like the Surly Moloko bars for around-town riding, but something about them wasn't agreeable with my hands for an extended trip. Numbness, I actually can handle. It's the lack of motor ability in my left hand after the ride that has me nervous. I code for a living, and even typing this write-up took about 4x longer than it normally would take me to type.

If you're in the midwest and want a low-key, non-technical bikepacking route, the White Pine would be something to consider. Here are a few pics from my mini adventure.

Craig

***

EDIT: Gear overview/review...

Storage/Cargo:

Voile Straps (20"). Everyone should own several. That is all.
Problem Solvers Bow Tie Strap Anchors. Brilliant, lightweight, minimalist design. 3-lb. limit for a pair. I bought 2 pair, and used 3 on my right fork, and added the remaining single bracket on the frame under my frame bag. Very happy with these. Paired with three (3) 20" Voile Straps, they held my cook kit (pan, MSR Pocket Rocket 2, and MSR fuel canister) firmly without any shifting/slipping. These are a TON lighter than the Salsa Anything Cage, and don't interfere with the retention arm on my Thule T2 rack like the Anything Cage did.
Revelate Designs Pika seat bag (now discontinued). This bag is smaller than the Viscacha, and worked well for me. I don't think I'd want more weight back there, and while the newer Terrapin systems look cool, I can't justify the need for my purposes. The Pika worked just fine. Carried my NorthFace Stormbreak 1 tent, vacuum-packed roll of T.P. (just in case), TheTentLab The Deuce, baby wipes, a couple empty zip-lock bags, shower/campground shoes, some basic first aid stuff, expanding towel tablets, lighter/matches, and 550 paracord. 
Revelate Designs Harness and Saltyroll. Nice stuff, and worked great with the Moloko bars (Jones, too). I added a retention strap to the backside, which held it to an Ahrens Wisecracker bottle opener/headset spacer. No swinging, nothing touching my head tube. This set-up carried my sleeping bag, sleeping pad & camp pillow, along with a handful of dehydrated meals.
Surly/Revelate Frame Bag. A very nice piece with a great fit. Two thumbs up.
Revelate Mag Tank 2000. Excellent bag for quick access. Love the retention clip/magnet. The foam spacer block makes funny squeaks against my Whiskey carbon headset spacers, though...I have to figure out a remedy for that. This bag carried my aux battery w/pass-through charging, electronics cords, and some small snacks (gel blocks & snack bars).
Quad Lock cell phone mount. Excellent phone retention for easy access. I have the mounts on two different bikes, and my wife has one in her car. Love it.
Salsa Anything Cage HD. I own 3 of these, and used 1 on this trip. While it's utilitarian, it's also very heavy and bulky. When mounted on the fork, they interfere with my Thule T2 rack. When used on the fork of my Big Fat Dummy, they interfere with me being able to load the bike inside my Honda Element, as the front of the bike sits between the front seats (too wide with the Anything Cages). My feelings are mixed, and I'll likely keep these around for use on an as-needed basis only.

Electronics:

Shimano XT dynamo hub. Not particularly sexy, but it did its job.
Sinewave Cycles Reactor USB charger. Worked as intended, and looks sexy, to boot. I did hit some slow speeds that interrupted charging, thinking that the aux/pass-through battery would keep it charging if I went to slow, but this wasn't the case. My solution is to ride faster through the greasy mud next time. :thumbsup:
Supernova E3 Pro 2 dynamo headlight. Since the ECR will serve double duty as a city commuter, I went with the E3 Pro 2 instead of the E3 Triple 2, Sinewave Beacon or K-Lite. Given that all of my riding was during daylight hours, I didn't use the light on this trip.

Tools/Spare Parts:

Tubolito 29+ spare tube. Small & light insurance. I carried this under my stem with a ~4 1/4" o-ring. It never moved, and was up high enough to keep it away from grit being thrown by the tires.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Awesome! I've only done one mini tour staying at air bnb but this is something I will love to do soon. I think for your first trip, it was a great idea to go easy.

Congrats! Nice ride too!


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## Surly in OZ (Aug 2, 2011)

Hi mate nice looking ride to break the ice. That trail looks great to have at you door step, a quick route to the countryside. 

As for Jones bars don't know if they will be much different to the Surly ones. I have Trolls bike with Jones bars and find the higher you have them the better. Also playing around with the angle of the bars makes a difference, you could try that with the Moloko bars.

Enjoy your riding.

OZ.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks, gents.

Regarding the bars, I exchanged a couple messages with a buddy who uses both Moloko & Jones on his various bikes. I did raise my stem the remaining 12.5mm this morning (uncut steerer tube), and will give that a try. I'd love to demo a set of Jones bars just as a comparison for the sweep. Of course I'm eyeing the lightweight (spend) carbon ones, which is why I'm hesitant to just throw money at a set of bars that may not make any tangible difference.

Thanks again,
Craig


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

How about a pair of Ergon grips to help you??

Produkte - ERGON BIKE


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> How about a pair of Ergon grips to help you??
> 
> Produkte - ERGON BIKE


I have a set of regular Ergon grips that I originally had installed, but not the ones designed for the high-sweep bars.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Impressive miles for a first trip and nice set up !
Michigan native and moved west in 1993 , my early 30's. Never rode much there but got the bug here. Later years before moving, was with GFS / based in G Rapids, working and living in Saginaw area.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Nice :thumbsup:

Did you try playing with rotation of that bar to see if that helps with the numbness any? If not, maybe that high sweep bar isn't for you for long riding, might want something in the 20-25 degree range like the Salsa Bend Deluxe bar 
https://salsacycles.com/components/category/mountain_handlebars/bend_deluxe


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## islander (Jan 21, 2004)

Thanks for sharing this Craig. Love the pics with the weathered door. Changing bars may help, but I'd also give some thought to moving some of the weight off your hands by getting more upright. Shorter stem, more stem rise (or spacers under stem) or narrower bars are the usual means. Lastly, fatter squishy grips can help. Hoping you sort it out and continue more of the same and enjoy the views.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks, everyone, for the tips regarding the hand numbness. I have played around some with the fore/aft tilt of the bars, and ran the same Molokos on my Big Fat Dummy for a while, so they're not completely new to me. I have not tried a stem shorter than 70mm, but that's not out of the question. I'll post a follow-up shortly after I do some adjustments and/or swap out some parts. I may try some ESI Extra Chunky grips. The ones on here now are Jones Kraten grips.

bachman1961 - Small world. Michigan has a lot of great trails. I haven't spent as much time on singletrack in recent years, but my heart's in the woods on a bike.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

I like 15-20 degrees of sweep on my bars, running the salsa bend 2 with 23 degrees now. I have large hands and find a double wrap of bar tape, plus bar ends great for comfort and change of hand positions.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Tried the SG 2” riser Jones bar. Can’t recommend them myself, they flex way too much for me. The higher end alloy double butted flat ones and carbon models may not have that issue (?); the sweep was nice for cruising though.

Running the Fouriers Trailhead in 7000 series alloy on my ECR. The bend in the grip area really does help with hand fatigue. They appear to be 58* from center frame line, so ~32* sweep by normal measurement (some articles say 28* and others 58*). Adding SQlab 411 innerbarends give you multiple hand positions and the ability to lightly rest your palms on top of the bar with your thumbs against the innerbarend top lip to prevent hand slips due to bumps; thus allowing your hand to sit in “your own” comfortable sweep position independent of the bar sweep when relaxed riding.

Will be using my Pro Taper 20/20 Carbon on the Banshee Paradox build in progress (20* sweep). The Tailhead and 20/20 both sweep forward then back which eliminates the need to run longer stems with a sweep bar. Have a pair of SQlab innerbarends on a this bar as well.

The Soma B-Side is sporting SQlab 311 16* sweep bars with Ergon GP2 grips/ends and GP5 ends with the stops ground out as long innerbarends covered with ESI chunky grips for comfort. A little of everything on this ride that is really one size too small for me.

As you can see there are a ton of options out there, including Salsa that others have mentioned. IIRC the Surly Moloko bars have a 34* sweep. Too bad you aren’t closer, we could do some trial swaps. I have always wanted to try the Moloko’s. My LBS let me hold a customers Moloko before she picked them up and they felt good in my hand, plus the extenders felt better than the Jones constant sweep in the forward position.

I think the Velo Orange Clunker bars (45* with 3” of rise, 680 width) might be a nice fit for an ECR too. They have a crossbar like the Surly Sunrise (16*). Their sweep starts at the stem mount point, so they will put you more upright by bringing the bars higher and closer to you.

My more sporty rides have less sweep with innerbarends for comfortable cruising. For me, the 16*-32* sweep range with innerbarends is best for an all-around do everything ride. Anything more and jamming singletrack doesn’t feel quite right.


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## Fatbikefan (Oct 12, 2017)

*Handlebar options*



1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> I have a set of regular Ergon grips that I originally had installed, but not the ones designed for the high-sweep bars.


Hey Craig, congrats on great trip! FWIW, On my Krampus, I love the Moloko bars with the ergon grips specific for swept back bars. I too had the stock ergon originally, and the ones made for swept back made a big positive difference. I also double bar taped all areas on moloko's that I grip as well. Lastly using a very short high angled stem to get more upright, and less weight off hands. I cant thank MTBR forum contributors enough for everyone's constant suggestions!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Numbness, I actually can handle. It's the lack of motor ability in my left hand after the ride that has me nervous. I code for a living, and even typing this write-up took about 4x longer than it normally would take me to type.


The nerve damage you are experiencing can take quite a while to resolve...weeks even months, but over time your hand will go back to normal. I won't repeat the ergonomic advice other people have posted other than to say experiment and see what happens. A long-ish day ride on a new setup should give you an idea if it's a change that's headed in the right direction. It may take a few tries to hit on the right riding position so don't get discouraged.


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## jamatt (Jan 2, 2008)

You might also look at gloves. I did the PCH many years ago with flat bars and had difficulty for up to a month after with my right hand. I got the Specialized Body Geometry gloves that take pressure off the heel of the hand underneath the pinky/ring finger and it seemed to help.


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## Chippertheripper (Sep 10, 2014)

I’m definitely jealous. I need a bike trip in a bad way.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

Personally I love the Jones H bars. I have a set of carbon ones on my bikepacking rig. The key that I found was to get the angle adjusted where the outer edges of your palm have equal pressure on the bar. I them wrap some gel material or similar under the wrap so that it bulges into the palm a bit.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks, everyone, for your input. Much appreciated. I did order a set of Jones SG Loop Bars to try out. I've been curious about them for a while and planned them for my build, but already owned the Moloko bars, and decided to save some dollars after extending the build budget more than originally intended (story of my life  ). If I truly love them, I'll save for a set of the carbon ones.

I did tip down the ends of the Molokos a bit, but haven't had a chance to test-ride it yet.

On an unrelated note, I'm going to edit my original post to give my opinions (worth what you paid for them  ) on the gear I used to the bottom of my original post.



vikb said:


> The nerve damage you are experiencing can take quite a while to resolve...weeks even months, but over time your hand will go back to normal. I won't repeat the ergonomic advice other people have posted other than to say experiment and see what happens. A long-ish day ride on a new setup should give you an idea if it's a change that's headed in the right direction. It may take a few tries to hit on the right riding position so don't get discouraged.


This makes me feel a little better. Thanks. :thumbsup:

Craig


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

I installed a set of Jones bars using the same 70mm stem I had with the Molokos. whatbars.com is awesome, so I knew the Jones bars would be about 70mm further back at the ends. It's a different feel from what I've ever ridden (including the Moloko bars), but I really like them so far. I just took them for a short single track ride on a trail around the corner from my house, including a rooty climb. Handling was very good. Weather-permitting, I'll be commuting to work tomorrow on the ECR, so I'll get a little longer demo ride on these bars.

I also wanted to add more bottle cages. I saw this write-up on bikepacking.com, and while it certainly seems effective, the install is a less refined than I'm looking for. I ordered a couple Wolftooth Components B-RAD 2 brackets, and will be installing them on the uber-versatile dropouts, along with a bottle cage on each side.

Craig


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> I also wanted to add more bottle cages. I saw this write-up on bikepacking.com, and while it certainly seems effective, the install is a less refined than I'm looking for. I ordered a couple Wolftooth Components B-RAD 2 brackets, and will be installing them on the uber-versatile dropouts, along with a bottle cage on each side.


Installed brackets look classy, and are very solid. This is a very elegant solution to extra dropout-mounted water bottle cages, IMHO.

I'm going to cross-post over in the Surly forum, as I haven't seen anyone mention this option for Trolls/Ogres/ECRs.

Craig


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Storage/Cargo:
> 
> Voile Straps (20"). Everyone should own several. That is all.


I picked up a few of the 22" ones for my recent trip. I don't know if they are all the same width, but I found mine to be usable, but more snug than I would like. It wasn't too bad in the AnythingHD cage, but in the PS Bow Ties it made it harder to thread them than I would have liked. Just ordered the latest version of the Revelate straps, which are narrower than Voile, but the new ones are longer than the previous model. Also my bike shop had some narrower ones, but they were not long enough for most of my uses.



1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Storage/Cargo:
> 
> Problem Solvers Bow Tie Strap Anchors. Brilliant, lightweight, minimalist design. 3-lb. limit for a pair. I bought 2 pair, and used 3 on my right fork, and added the remaining single bracket on the frame under my frame bag. Very happy with these. Paired with three (3) 20" Voile Straps, they held my cook kit (pan, MSR Pocket Rocket 2, and MSR fuel canister) firmly without any shifting/slipping. These are a TON lighter than the Salsa Anything Cage, and don't interfere with the retention arm on my Thule T2 rack like the Anything Cage did.
> Salsa Anything Cage HD. I own 3 of these, and used 1 on this trip. While it's utilitarian, it's also very heavy and bulky. When mounted on the fork, they interfere with my Thule T2 rack. When used on the fork of my Big Fat Dummy, they interfere with me being able to load the bike inside my Honda Element, as the front of the bike sits between the front seats (too wide with the Anything Cages). My feelings are mixed, and I'll likely keep these around for use on an as-needed basis only.


I also just picked up some of the Bow Ties after having been using a combo of the Anything Cage and the Anything Cage HD. I picked up three sets of two, and put three on each fork (of my Troll). My Troll is also my commuter, so, in the past, the Anything Cages would go on for a trip and come off when I came home because they interfered with the arm of the bus rack. Likely similar to your car rack issues. The Bow Tie straps were great, and I haven't had to take them off. Barely notice them when I'm not using them. One thing I found is that while they were great for my Anything Bag, with its daisy-chain loops, they were not as great on a generic drybag that had no extra support for the straps along the side. I've used that same bag many times on an Anything Cage, but the lack of bottom support on the Bow Ties meant that the bag wanted to slip down, and the contents of the bag meant I couldn't really make everything super tight. That's not a knock on the Bow Ties. I love them and will likely get another Anything Bag or similar to make the best use of that space, and I definitely have other items that would work well with that set up, and on my last trip I ended up using one side for my folded-up duffel bag, which was great because it never needed to be removed until the end of the trip. I doubt I will put my Anything Cages back on the forks. The Bow Ties are just too handy and unobtrusive. I do, however, usually have my Anything HD installed in the mounts in the triangle of the frame. Comes in handy when making unplanned grocery stops, and I could see mounting the Anything Cage on the underside of the downtube. But thanks to the Bow Ties, I didn't use any Anything Cages on the last trip because I removed the one in the triangle to install the frame bag, and I just put a regular water bottle cage under the downtube.



1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> I have a set of regular Ergon grips that I originally had installed, but not the ones designed for the high-sweep bars.


FWIW, I used to run Albatross bars on my Trucker with the normal Ergons. I don't think they had a special, swept-back-bar version at the time. I really liked them. When I got the Crazy Bars for my Troll, I got the swept back version. I didn't care for them. They shifted your grip to make it more like gripping flat bars. I use swept back bars because I don't like that grip position. I switched back to the standard version, and I've been using them on my swept back bars for years.



1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Installed brackets look classy, and are very solid. This is a very elegant solution to extra dropout-mounted water bottle cages, IMHO.


That is a handy solution, and I will keep that in mind. For my part, I used a King Cage steerer tube cap mount (wouldn't work with your Sinewave) and a Minora mount that attaches to my seat rails (because I was using panniers. Wouldn't work with a seat bag.). Combined with the one on the downtube, that gave me 3, which was plenty, although I also had a water bladder I could fill if necessary. But if I ever had to travel without panniers, I can see the advantage of moving some water storage to the rear dropouts.

Thanks for the gear reviews.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Rob_E said:


> View attachment 1260715


Nice set-up! Thanks for sharing.



Rob_E said:


> I picked up a few of the 22" ones for my recent trip. I don't know if they are all the same width, but I found mine to be usable, but more snug than I would like. It wasn't too bad in the AnythingHD cage, but in the PS Bow Ties it made it harder to thread them than I would have liked. Just ordered the latest version of the Revelate straps, which are narrower than Voile, but the new ones are longer than the previous model. Also my bike shop had some narrower ones, but they were not long enough for most of my uses.


Yes, your 22" Voile straps are 1" wide, while mine are 3/4" wide. I can see where yours would be a little too snug for some of the stuff we're using (e.g. Anything Bag).



Rob_E said:


> I also just picked up some of the Bow Ties after having been using a combo of the Anything Cage and the Anything Cage HD. I picked up three sets of two, and put three on each fork (of my Troll). My Troll is also my commuter, so, in the past, the Anything Cages would go on for a trip and come off when I came home because they interfered with the arm of the bus rack. Likely similar to your car rack issues. The Bow Tie straps were great, and I haven't had to take them off. Barely notice them when I'm not using them. One thing I found is that while they were great for my Anything Bag, with its daisy-chain loops, they were not as great on a generic drybag that had no extra support for the straps along the side. I've used that same bag many times on an Anything Cage, but the lack of bottom support on the Bow Ties meant that the bag wanted to slip down, and the contents of the bag meant I couldn't really make everything super tight. That's not a knock on the Bow Ties. I love them and will likely get another Anything Bag or similar to make the best use of that space, and I definitely have other items that would work well with that set up, and on my last trip I ended up using one side for my folded-up duffel bag, which was great because it never needed to be removed until the end of the trip. I doubt I will put my Anything Cages back on the forks. The Bow Ties are just too handy and unobtrusive. I do, however, usually have my Anything HD installed in the mounts in the triangle of the frame. Comes in handy when making unplanned grocery stops, and I could see mounting the Anything Cage on the underside of the downtube. But thanks to the Bow Ties, I didn't use any Anything Cages on the last trip because I removed the one in the triangle to install the frame bag, and I just put a regular water bottle cage under the downtube.


Yeah, I'm really loving those little things! You may want to look at the new Revelate Polecat bag as another option for the Salsa Anything Bag. Just another alternative.

Craig


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## Rob_E (Nov 22, 2010)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Yeah, I'm really loving those little things! You may want to look at the new Revelate Polecat bag as another option for the Salsa Anything Bag. Just another alternative.


Looks promising. I was excited until I realized it has about 3/4s the capacity of the Anything Bag. I love Revelate's stuff, but I sometimes wish the Anything bag were a little bigger than it is. I probably won't be going with anything smaller.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

What is the update here? How do you like the Jones bar vs the Moloko? I am deciding between the two and see what owners are saying. Which size did you get the 660(which what I am looking at for single track) or the wider one? How is the weight compare between the two? Any change in handling?


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Funoutside said:


> What is the update here? How do you like the Jones bar vs the Moloko? I am deciding between the two and see what owners are saying. Which size did you get the 660(which what I am looking at for single track) or the wider one? How is the weight compare between the two? Any change in handling?


I like the Jones bars, but also liked the Molokos. I _probably_ could have fine-tuned the tilt on the Molokos to work better for me on long distances, but don't regret buying the Jones. My wife liked then so much that we got some Jones 2.5" riser bars for hers.

Molokos offer a little better technical riding control (at least for me), but I like the Jones better all-around. I used the same length stem in both cases, so I welcomed the shorter reach of the Jones. The handling is definitely a little different between the Jones & Moloko, at least when running the same length stem with both bars.

The Jones bars we bought were the 710mm (wider) versions, by the way. If you're on the fence, buy the wide ones, as there are marked lines for cutting them down to the original Jones width.

In short, I'm probably no help at all. 

Craig


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Did you get the regular or SG variant? From some of the reviews, I saw the 660 is better for single track, which I do ride from time to time. How's the 2.5? I hear it's a bit springy and not in positive way? My bike is currently drop bar and like riding on the hood, but not a good thing for downhill gravel and rocky descents. I take the Moloko has a bit of a riding on the hood feel, but the Jones doesn't at all?


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Funoutside said:


> Did you get the regular or SG variant? From some of the reviews, I saw the 660 is better for single track, which I do ride from time to time. How's the 2.5? I hear it's a bit springy and not in positive way? My bike is currently drop bar and like riding on the hood, but not a good thing for downhill gravel and rocky descents. I take the Moloko has a bit of a riding on the hood feel, but the Jones doesn't at all?


I did go with the SG model(s). I can't comment on the width relative to single track riding, but do know you can always go shorter, but not longer.

I haven't ridden my wife's bike (2017 KM) with the 2.5 bar other than around the driveway/yard, so I can't comment about the springiness. At first glance, it doesn't feel springy. My buddy runs the same bar on his winter fat bike. He's 6' 3"ish and around 190 lbs. (guessing), and he never mentioned it being springy.

With the the Moloko "horns", yes, there's more of a "riding in the hoods" feel there.

Craig


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Thank you, really been helpful. I saw a review video(path less peddled) where Jones offers nubs to give that riding on the hoods feel. Now to try out the Moloko, Jones bar and possibly Orange Crazy bar in person and see which I like best then go from there. I wish I could test my bike out with all three just to see which doesn't take away from the handling of the ride.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

Funoutside said:


> Thank you, really been helpful. I saw a review video(path less peddled) where Jones offers nubs to give that riding on the hoods feel. Now to try out the Moloko, Jones bar and possibly Orange Crazy bar in person and see which I like best then go from there. I wish I could test my bike out with all three just to see which doesn't take away from the handling of the ride.


Happy to help. :thumbsup: Good luck!


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Enjoyed watching your build changes. Thx

Finally got around to ordering up a Moloko for my ECR. The Jones had too much sweep for me and the 2” riser model was w-a-y too flexible; almost noodlely. I’m thinking that 34* is at the max end of what makes my hands and arms happy.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

The key that I found for using Jones bars or equivalent is to get an angle where the bars contact your palms evenly across the surface. i.e. the pad below the pinky and the junction between the pointer finger and thumb both have similar pressure. If you get it right, a comfortable position will drop your elbows more than with a normal flat bar.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Whiptastic said:


> Enjoyed watching your build changes. Thx
> 
> Finally got around to ordering up a Moloko for my ECR. The Jones had too much sweep for me and the 2" riser model was w-a-y too flexible; almost noodlely. I'm thinking that 34* is at the max end of what makes my hands and arms happy.


Really my lbs said there shouldn't be flex with the riser bar.

Semi-related what handlebar do you have on your Wolverine, and how would you compare the handling/feel of the Wolverine to the ECR?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

wow...great first ride pics and info. 

I have been looking at the GAP/C&O trail as my first ride, but this might be a better option(?)

I prefer to ride in the fall, winter...when do you get the first snow?

Was it 2 days 1 way, or both? 

If I wanted to do this trail, could I park my car at your place and ride to the trail head... 

am thinking that this might be cool to do over my Christmas break or Spring Break. I love riding in Michigan!! Live in C-bus Ohio, but we travel to MI for vacay every summer, and my wife is from Trenton, so she likes to go "Home" as much as possible.

I have a Surly Krampus, and almost bought an ECR when I got the Krampus.


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Any reason you went Krampus over ECR?


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> wow...great first ride pics and info.
> 
> I have been looking at the GAP/C&O trail as my first ride, but this might be a better option(?)
> 
> ...


Thanks!

First snow? That could be October, or it could be December. Mother Nature is wildly schizophrenic here in the Mitten State. 

My trip was done over 2 days. Home to Paris Park (in Paris, MI), camp/sleep, then back home the next day.

In all seriousness, you'd be welcome to park at my place if you wanted to do this ride. There is also a trailhead/parking area right by my office, as the start of the trail is literally 15 yards behind my office building.

Fall would be an amazing ride. Christmas Break would likely be a snowy grind, while Spring Break is a coin flip in terms of the weather.

Craig


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Thanks!
> 
> First snow? That could be October, or it could be December. Mother Nature is wildly schizophrenic here in the Mitten State.
> 
> ...


spent some time last night looking at the trail website, and some of the campsites on the way...did you use a campsite, or just a spot off of the trail? Was also looking at it as a possible weeklong ride - there and back - to do in the early summer. I would mostly love to ride in the fall, but my job (band director) has that as my busiest time of year...we get the Weds-Sun over Thanksgiving off...still might consider that time slot weather permitting


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> spent some time last night looking at the trail website, and some of the campsites on the way...did you use a campsite, or just a spot off of the trail? Was also looking at it as a possible weeklong ride - there and back - to do in the early summer. I would mostly love to ride in the fall, but my job (band director) has that as my busiest time of year...we get the Weds-Sun over Thanksgiving off...still might consider that time slot weather permitting


I stayed at the Paris Park campground. Keep me posted if you get up this way.

Craig


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Ride Farr has a new bar out, that looks to be a mix of the cowchipper with jones bar/moloko style slot for more hand positions and bags. https://bikerumor.com/2019/09/13/fu...avel-one-piece-surly-rises-at-the-truck-stop/


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jones loop bar with Ergon GS1 grips works pretty well for my hands, best solution I've found so far, having tried all the Ergon and most other grips. Softer than GP1, which worked but not as well. Not riding much for the last year or so because of a back country building project has noticeably helped my hands to recover a bit, a welcome surprise. The numbness was very bothersome for a number of years.


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

Hey Craig! I found your post when searching for 'Moloko harness setup' or similar and it was a refreshing read to find a bikepacking post from a fellow GR rider! I'm in GR and also in the coding industry 

It looks like you've already gotten a lot of feedback on the bar concern. I just got a bridge club and put molokos on it - am loving the setup, but there's one thing I do first with every flat bar - Ergon Grips. I can't and won't use anything else, they're a game changer for me. I used the swept-back specific GC1's and they're amazing. I get severe hand pain with anything else. I'd also check your saddle angle, nose-down can relieve some pressure if you're running a nearly-too-high saddle, but it transfers the weight to your hands. I was guilty of this issue for far too long without knowing it. Flatten the saddle, lower it a touch, and your sit bones bear more weight, your hands less.

Anyways - What I came here to ask was about what your cable runs look like on the Molokos with the harness setup. I have a revelate harness too and am struggling to figure out good cable management with the molokos due to the angle the hoses/cable housings exit the bars. I can pinch the cables between the harness and have an extreme angle, or thought about trying to do really long cable runs on the outside of the load.. curious on what you landed on!

Thanks,
Jerry


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

jerrduford said:


> Hey Craig! I found your post when searching for 'Moloko harness setup' or similar and it was a refreshing read to find a bikepacking post from a fellow GR rider! I'm in GR and also in the coding industry
> 
> It looks like you've already gotten a lot of feedback on the bar concern. I just got a bridge club and put molokos on it - am loving the setup, but there's one thing I do first with every flat bar - Ergon Grips. I can't and won't use anything else, they're a game changer for me. I used the swept-back specific GC1's and they're amazing. I get severe hand pain with anything else. I'd also check your saddle angle, nose-down can relieve some pressure if you're running a nearly-too-high saddle, but it transfers the weight to your hands. I was guilty of this issue for far too long without knowing it. Flatten the saddle, lower it a touch, and your sit bones bear more weight, your hands less.
> 
> ...


Good to e-meet you, Jerry! I'll shoot you my number via PM (I'm right in NE GR if you want to connect sometime). I ran the Molokos on my Big Fat Dummy for a while before swapping them onto the ECR. Now I have wide, flat RaceFace bars on the BFD and Jones bars on my ECR.

The Jones bars seem to be the sweet spot for me, but I haven't done any long trips on them...just rides around town. I also switched to them before trying some of the sweep-specific Ergon grips. I just have the standard Ergons that I have run on several bikes (love 'em!). I will say that I connected my Revelate harness rubber "blocks" to the front-most cross support on the Molokos (the smaller tube), and connected the webbing on the lower part of the harness to the actual mounting area of the handlebars (near the stem). This way, I don't get a bunch of unwanted head tube rubbing with the handlebar harness. It worked well. Regarding the cable routing, my cables weren't pinched much at all for this big trip, but without looking, I can't recall exactly how they fished through the harness.

PM coming your way...
Craig


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

1x1_Speed_Craig said:


> Good to e-meet you, Jerry! I'll shoot you my number via PM (I'm right in NE GR if you want to connect sometime). I ran the Molokos on my Big Fat Dummy for a while before swapping them onto the ECR. Now I have wide, flat RaceFace bars on the BFD and Jones bars on my ECR.
> 
> The Jones bars seem to be the sweet spot for me, but I haven't done any long trips on them...just rides around town. I also switched to them before trying some of the sweep-specific Ergon grips. I just have the standard Ergons that I have run on several bikes (love 'em!). I will say that I connected my Revelate harness rubber "blocks" to the front-most cross support on the Molokos (the smaller tube), and connected the webbing on the lower part of the harness to the actual mounting area of the handlebars (near the stem). This way, I don't get a bunch of unwanted head tube rubbing with the handlebar harness. It worked well. Regarding the cable routing, my cables weren't pinched much at all for this big trip, but without looking, I can't recall exactly how they fished through the harness.
> 
> ...


Oh! Fantastic idea with running the main harness mount on the outmost portion of the moloko/jones and the lower mount at the stem area. That keeps the load nicely secured and off the head tube. Should make for better cable management in my case! I'll have to play around with that.

Replying to PM now!


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

jerrduford said:


> Oh! Fantastic idea with running the main harness mount on the outmost portion of the moloko/jones and the lower mount at the stem area. That keeps the load nicely secured and off the head tube. Should make for better cable management in my case! I'll have to play around with that.
> 
> Replying to PM now!


Yeah, I forgot that I actually secured it to one of those bottle opener headset spacers (mentioned above in this thread). It worked great with a small piece of Velcro one-wrap.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

.......


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Funoutside said:


> Really my lbs said there shouldn't be flex with the riser bar.
> 
> Semi-related what handlebar do you have on your Wolverine, and how would you compare the handling/feel of the Wolverine to the ECR?


My LBS told me the 2" riser model Jones is known for flexing and tried to talk me into the double butted flat ones, but I needed the extra rise so I ordered them anyway. My LBS was right! They flexed way too much for my liking. The worst case was when another rider popped out from behind a 6' high brick fence to my right when I making a right turn at about 20mph. I jumped on the binders and leaned into a hard right hoping to miss him. The bars where the only uncontrollable part of the effort, flexing all over the place. Luckily I caught him behind his rear axle and although he was forced off his bike, he stayed on his feet. I managed to stay on my bike and circled back to make sure he was okay. That was the day I decided to go Moloko steel.

I love Surly bars. Running the Surly Terminal on my Wolverine (34* sweep, 40mm rise) and the Surly Sunrise on my Banshee Paradox V3 (14.7*-16* sweep, high 3" rise) with old school Specialized long barends set inbound of the grips.

For me the 34* is just right and comfortable for normal riding. I now run sweep bar Radial grips on both of the 34* bars and Fabric's ergo's on the more aggressive Sunrise bar.

As for handling of the ECR vs. Wolverine (V2.1), they are completely different bikes. The Wolverine 62cm frame has a lot of comfort lateral flex in it and has a very light feel to it (steep carbon fork too). The ECR has a heavy comfortable ride feel with little Lateral flex. Both bikes handle like I'd expect for what they are built of and for. You can single track them both, beach cruise them both and tour them both; but they feel nothing alike at all.

Likewise, my newest ride the Banshee Paradox V3 is yet another all different feel and designed geometry than the other two. The new Paradox extreme reach and stack make it the best out of saddle bike I have ever owned. It reminds me of being a kid on and giant BMX or in my day, pre-BMX customized Schwinn Stingray motto-racer; yet it can bomb downhill like a Santa Cruz Hightower (albeit with a compliant rigid rear) and still climb with every bit of your power being put down to the ground (no rear suspension power loss).

Three real sweat rides that are very different in feel, handling and purpose. 


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Thank you for your reply. Surly ECR & Bridge Club(really nice during the test ride) was on my list, but got a good deal on a Bombtrack Beyond+ about a month ago. I looked into putting the Jones bar on it as the more expensive 29+ version(B+ ADV) model comes with it(double butted version from what I am told) stock. Local bike shop showed it to me the SG variant(by itself) & after a few minutes of holding it wasn't for. Moloko bar felt a little nicer, but also not for me. They didn't have the Crazy Bar to test, but I think I may like that one. There is also the Origin8, which is like a flat bar variant of the Jones bar, which would be interesting to try. Stock on the B+ flat bar with a sweep & I am liking it more than I imagined. Not the most optical choice for bike packing, but the extra for & rear mounts make up for it. May est out the Ergon grips with the bar ends as I miss the extra positions of a drop bar.


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## richie64 (May 24, 2013)

Thanks for the write up. My wife and I are planning out first bike packing trip this summer, 45 miles from our door step to our camping spot. It will be gravel and paved roads that see light traffic in northern Wisconsin. I will be using an ECR and she is torn between her Fatback Corvus or her LIV Comax gravel bike. I have a choice between bars, a pair of Renthal flat bars with around 25 mm rise and the Moloko bars. It has the Surly rear rack and McFly 2.8 29er tires on it. I enjoyed reading all the replies and looking forward to our trip.


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## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

richie64 said:


> Thanks for the write up. My wife and I are planning out first bike packing trip this summer, 45 miles from our door step to our camping spot. It will be gravel and paved roads that see light traffic in northern Wisconsin. I will be using an ECR and she is torn between her Fatback Corvus or her LIV Comax gravel bike. I have a choice between bars, a pair of Renthal flat bars with around 25 mm rise and the Moloko bars. It has the Surly rear rack and McFly 2.8 29er tires on it. I enjoyed reading all the replies and looking forward to our trip.


Enjoy your upcoming trip, and be safe.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I did this trip in late May of this year. I was on a ride from my home near Akron Ohio to my Mother's house SW of Traverse City. I rode it from NW Grand Rapids to Cadillac. My total trip was 460 miles in 4 days. On day one my White Pine Trail ride was from the town of Marshall Michigan through Grand Rapids to Paris and the next day was Paris to just west of Buckley Michigan.
I agree with you that the White Pine Trail is a very good first trip for anyone.
My rig is enormous e bike rig and very capable of fast long distance bikepacking. Here is a picture I took on the Buckeye Trail Bikepacking Route earlier this week.














I will probably be doing that trip in reverse in about a month or so.

I do have the Jone's Bars on my bike. It helped some but did not cure everything. Better handlebar real-estate though.


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