# Tongsheng TSDZ2; how bad do I need one?



## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I live near the Oregon sand dunes so I picked up a Giant/Yukon fat tire bike.
I was considering assisting it with a Revel Propulsion, since I already have one, but the Giant frame has a 120 mm wide press fit bottom bracket which will not be easy to convert to threaded bottom bracket that the Revel requires.

The Giant frame is designed such that the motor will not hang down so much like an "udder".

Bafangs and tsdz2 would be so much easier to install but the chain lines on a Bafang when using a 30t front chain ring is poor.
Bafangs have more assist but no torque sensor.

I would like to inquire from those using a TSDZ2

1 How is the chainline on a TSDZ2 with a 30-34 chainring.
2 How does the amount of assist compare to Bosch, Brose, Shimano? More, less or about the same.
3 Does to TSDZ2 torque sensor have a decent feel to it whereas the Bafangs I have been told are all or nothing when you start pedaling.
4 TSDZ2 reliability?
5 Would you get one again?
6 I only found one place that sells TSDZ2 that are extended to fit 120 mm bottom Bracket

thanks
Highroad


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

1 How is the chainline on a TSDZ2 with a 30-34 chainring.

Won't be good unless you retro fit an offset 42t chainring that fits over the final drive casing. I use an 11-48 cassette to compensate

2 How does the amount of assist compare to Bosch, Brose, Shimano? More, less or about the same.

I would say on par or a bit better depending on what voltage, you can choose 36/48/52v and A is adjustable with the open source version

3 Does to TSDZ2 torque sensor have a decent feel to it whereas the Bafangs I have been told are all or nothing when you start pedaling.

I think it is on par and once again the OS version is able to be fine tuned. There are no other kit type mid drives with torque assist that I know of, kit Bafangs are all cadence sensing which is why they are so on/off

4 TSDZ2 reliability?

Not as good as they could be with a bit of re-design of the bb area. They need to go with a hollow spindle splined instead of the square taper and put some better bearings to make it really good. But quite frankly I don't see any of the major brands being immune from failures either but with the TS I can at least perform the work on it myself
5 Would you get one again?

Just ordered an OS one actually which will be my third one for a project I'm working on

6 I only found one place that sells TSDZ2 that are extended to fit 120 mm bottom Bracket

I would assume Eco? You might check Endless Sphere about this as I have seen there that there can be issues with the extended version coming apart at the joint....no experience there. The nylon gear is a known issue but easily swapped out for the brass version

For under a grand to convert using the Eco OS and a 48v/12ah 21700 battery from here: https://ebikemarketplace.com/collections/48v-batteries/products/48v-16ah-sea-viper is a pretty good deal actually. At least it works for me.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Bigwheel
I could not have asked for a more informative response to my TSDZ2 questions.
I appreciate the time you took.

I knew about the gear issue but thanks for the heads up on the 120 mm extension possibly being an issue.

I run a 11-50 cassette on both bikes and from my experience with the Bosch and Revel, my riding terrain requires a 30-34t chainring.
So having to run a 42t on the TSDZ2 to get a decent chain line is another strike against it; as with the Bafangs.

Do you mind telling me what the “OS version” is? Over seas????

On ebike market place, is that the TSDZ2 under another name.
All the motors seem to be sold out on that site.

Would using 36 volt be too anemic?

I am curious about why hollow spindle splined versus square taper?

Thanks again
Highroad


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

I appreciate the time you took.

De Nada, I've got plenty of spare time these days

I knew about the gear issue but thanks for the heads up on the 120 mm extension possibly being an issue.

If you go to Endless Sphere you'll find it, maybe, but it is an issue. The gear really isn't that big a deal although I've spoiled two of the blue gears. The second one lasted much longer than the first as I think they changed the compound after the first run but it's not PEET which would make it a better unit, and it is quieter for sure if stealth is an issue but I came out of the eBike closet years ago and a little whirr under mid-full power is not offensive to me.

I run a 11-50 cassette on both bikes and from my experience with the Bosch and Revel, my riding terrain requires a 30-34t chainring.
So having to run a 42t on the TSDZ2 to get a decent chain line is another strike against it; as with the Bafangs.

I don't know what to say other than I have climbed some seriously steep grades and ridden plenty in the sand, some trails near me are sand based for the most part. But truth be known I have also ridden my front hub eX bikes in sand also and the two wheel drive aspect works really well. In fact truth be known if I was going to convert a fad bike I would use a 500w front hub motor with a throttle and a way to set the watt output off of it, which is constant while you ride in the gear selection of the moment, to get at the front wheel drive feature.....

Do you mind telling me what the “OS version” is? Over seas????

Open source. Huge thread on ES about it and in general what that site is about vs one like this that is more about proprietary systems that tie you to a certain supply chain and service network

On ebike market place, is that the TSDZ2 under another name.
All the motors seem to be sold out on that site.

That site is just for the 12ah version of that 21700 battery, OS TSDZ2 with extension ability is available from Eco cycle

Would using 36 volt be too anemic?

I would say yes, 48v preferred. Riding sand takes a good amount of watts to get through the soft stuff but you can ride just about any bike on dark sand like they have on a beach. I'm surprised that the Sand Dunes are open actually. Sand Lake, another popular spot for sand venturing, just below me is closed. Forum rules dictate I don't give advice on the situation if closed.

I am curious about why hollow spindle splined versus square taper?

Square taper cranks of decent quality are hard to come by anymore and the cheap ones like those that come with the kit, but do order the straight right crank to alleviate Q factor, do what they always did, gall even if you pay attention to torque spec. 

Well back to yardwork. There isn't an e weedwhacker on the planet that can do the damage my 4 stroke one does.....Some noise cancelling headphones and Pandora are all the e I need. Tip of the day, if in the market get the Letscom one from Azon, they are cheap and IMNSHO are better than the Bose one because they have an active noise cancelling feature as well as the same as the more expensive models. Super comfortable also, best I've had and I've been using ear protection for years that either pinch you noggin or don't fully fit over your ears.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Lots of info on the tsdz on the other forum. Lots of good reading on tsdz. Probably best to add some Ferro in there to help out.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Going against the grain, but I've been riding a BBS02 (52V, 10 ah) hardtail off road for almost five years without a problem. The drivetrain is 8-speed Altus with 11-17-28 gears on the end of the cassette and Luna 30t cjainring. Provides a straight cjainline and the number of gears is adequate with the motor.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Hi fos’l
Thanks for your response.

1. How did you decide to go BBS02 versus BBSHD?

2. You have a 1x8 cassette that you only use 3 of the 8 or you removed all but 3 and limited the derailleur?

3. I assume the 1x8 chain is beefier than 1x11 or 1x12?

4. How do the bafangs perform if I do not use a throttle with 11-17-28 gears?

5. Could you have used more gears on the cassette or are those the only 3 that give a decent chain line when using the 30t chain ring?

6. How does one decide between 36, 48 and 52 volts?

7 How much does the bafang motor and battery weigh?

Thanks
Highroad


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

highroad 2 said:


> Hi fos'l
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> 1. How did you decide to go BBS02 versus BBSHD?
> ...


HR, Thanks for your response.
1) Easy decision; the BBSHD wasn't available. Still happy with the BBS since it has adequate power for my application.
2) Three individual cogs and the appropriate spacers including one big one taking up most of the cassette space. I had a plethora of spacers from years of single speed riding.
3) That's part of the reason for 8-speed although I've never seen any data that shows a strength comparison. The other was cost since nothing esoteric is needed with a motor.
4) Performance is fine for me. I developed a "new" skill since it's necessary
to keep pedaling ascending switchbacks or the motor will stop assisting. I have two systems (purchased a duplicate for when the original needed service; hasn't occurred) and didn't bother installing the throttle on the second one.
5) Could have added more, but with a straight line with the "17", it's only off one click on either side, so it seemed the system would last longer.
6). 52 was a popular size on the Luna site, so easy choice. 48 would be fine too; 36 would work with BBS01 controller, but not "02" AFAIK.
7) Motor about 10 pounds AIR; battery about 7, although Luna has a mini (4 ah) that's about 3.5. I built a lightweight rigid BBS02 with a Luna (6 ah; no longer available) and lots of bling (left over from various projects) that was < 35 pounds just to see what it would be like. Harsh ride.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Fos’l
Thanks for the responses and sharing your experience.
I need to find a Bafang assisted bike to compare since I have only ridden the Bosch and Revel that have torque sensors


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I should emphasize that this system could be an acquired taste. The only thing I had to compare it with when constructed was a 36V, 350w front hub motor. However, since then I've ridden a myriad of different products and still prefer the BBS.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

Fos’l
Are you using the Luna mighty mini 30t chainring?
If so does it readily except the 1x8 chain?

So if I use the Luna 42t chain ring, it offsets the chain in board quite a bit n comparison to the 30t which now gives an ideal chain line with the bigger sprockets on the cassette and mathematical my give similar ratios.

I am leaning towards getting the BBSHD versus BBS01 just because it has more power, unless you talk me out of that choice
Thanks again 
Highroad


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

BBSHD is the better choice by far. Even more power would end up with a Cyclone, but the BBSHD is better quality.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I'm using the Luna 30 and it accepts the 8-speed chain. My wife's BBS02 has the Lekkie 42 (probably the same as Luna's) and it moves the chainring in another 5 mm or so (never measured, just guessing). As indicated, the BBSHD wasn't available when I purchased the first BBS02, but it's fine for me since I can set the assist to the appropriate level and get some exercise. However, there's no reason for you not to buy the BBSHD.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

I worked in an eBike shop for a few months a few years ago and the BBSHD conversion on fat bikes was a specialty of the shop due to demand. After assembling at least 10 of them and test riding I came to the conclusion that they were heavy, ponderous and overpowered bicycle shaped objects that pedaled like crap because there was no feeling of human input due to the cadence sensing PAS. YMMV of course.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bigwheel said:


> I worked in an eBike shop for a few months a few years ago and the BBSHD conversion on fat bikes was a specialty of the shop due to demand. After assembling at least 10 of them and test riding I came to the conclusion that they were heavy, ponderous and overpowered bicycle shaped objects that pedaled like crap because there was no feeling of human input due to the cadence sensing PAS. YMMV of course.


There are a few exceptions, like Salespunk, that actually want a mountain bike that just goes up the climbs with a bit of assist but they intend to ride just like a mountain bike.

But that's not the majority of e-bike customers. I've been reading their posts, most just want a motorcycle that they can get away with riding on little jogging paths and what not. They don't want a mountain bike for single track, and this is greatly reflected in the overpowered/ heavy/ often hub driven kits with throttles that they prefer. Many of these e-bike customers complain about the fact that they have to apply their own torque to get the torque sensing motor to assist, or even that they have to pedal at all. This truly is a different sport/ activity.

I want an e-bike and hope in time they become legal on TX trails (currently they are not) but realize that philosophically as a mountain biker that loves working hard, I don't have much in common with the average e-biker.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

That's why I would like to Demo a bafang on the steep single track I normally ride.
I have only ridden no assist or torque assist and have no interest in putting out no or minimal effort.
Thanks every one for contributing to the TDSZ2/Bafang discussion
Highroad


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

HR2, if you want to read extensively about the BBSHD, try electricbike-blog.com


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